# Rat/mouse breeding



## Buggster (Oct 13, 2016)

Having two snakes now (and always planning on getting more xD) buying mice/rats for them in getting increasing expensive.
im paying $25 for a pack of 7 adult mice, and since my Woma needs to up his food size (2 mice are barely putting a dent in him), I wanted to get him rats, but at $25 for only three small sized rats, it's not exactly something I want to be buying so often!

Ive been considering starting my own setup of breeding mice or rats (but the family isn't exactly supportive but willing to allow me if they don't see or hear the mice/rats) to help cut the costs a little.

i previously had mice as pets, and have volunteered at a large rat/mouse breeding facility. I am comfortable in euthanasing mice with CO2 gas (have a SodaStream that's lying around in disuse).

Looking into setting up a basic tub setup (although I'm happy to buy a proper rat/mouse cage if I feel I need one). Anyone have any suggestions/ideas on what I could do here?

Ive not met decided whether I want mice or rats- mice are far smaller and more manageable, but my Woma has already outgrown them, but my Stimmies is struggling to eat adult mice as it is- and both is not reasonable.

from what I understand starting with 2-3 females and one male should be plently to start off with- and to be honest I don't really need so many, I'm hoping to only need to have a couple litters from each female to keep me supplied for a while- even keeping the adults as pets is an option as I do love how tameable and friendly rats and mice can be (although I don't know if I could euthanise something I've named).


any suggestions in general?

thanks guys!


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## Wally (Oct 13, 2016)

You need to decide if breeding rodents to support two snakes with the possibility of more in the future is worth it, personally I'd say no.

If you have an eye on making a few extra bucks as an aside to your hobby then you need to weigh up all the factors with supplying rodents to the wider community and the costs involved.


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## pinefamily (Oct 14, 2016)

I agree with Wally. You need to get the ongoing costs of food and bedding, and weigh that up against the cost of rodents purchased. Where are you buying from? Can you source a local breeder who might be cheaper?


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## saximus (Oct 14, 2016)

Like Pinefamily alluded to, I would suggest that the problem right now is your rodent supplier. Two snakes are _not_ expensive to feed. You shouldn't really need to pay any more than about $5 per rat, unless they're large adults. I have 17 snakes and a Lacey and have been breeding both rats and mice for a few years now but even with that many I'm starting to think the "savings" just aren't worth the time and effort. It seems funny to write that because, when I started, I came here asking questions like you and got told it wouldn't be worth it. So I won't be too negative because I know how bad it feels to be excited about this new project only to be told not to do it. Depending on your personality, there are actually a bunch of pros and cons and plenty of threads on here outlining them both.

The main advice I would offer based on your actual questions is:
- Use professional/home-made tubs over cages. As your numbers wave up and down, you will be very thankful that everything is modular and interchangeable for cleaning.
- Pay the money to get good bloodlines from the start. The most painful thing when you start (particularly with rats) is literally just trying to get the bloody things to breed in reasonable numbers. Lab rodents are also nearly genetically identical so you can inbreed without defects.
- Soda Stream is perfect for large numbers but it is much easier to get comfortable with cervical dislocation or introducing them to a hard surface at high velocity. You'll save a lot of time and money.
- If you get good mice, a trio will be plenty for two snakes. Rats vary considerably but, again, for one or two snakes a trio will probably do as well.

PS don't worry about your family seeing or hearing them. The smell will be the most obvious sign by a long way .


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## pythoninfinite (Oct 14, 2016)

Ditto the smell factor saxi - especially with mice - they're terrible unless cleaned every couple of days.

Jamie


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## icuucme2 (Oct 14, 2016)

I keep my rats in the carport plenty of ventilation limited smell, mice stinks more than rats. where I live frozen rats are too expensive so I tracked down a couple to breed, when there is enough in the freezer u take the male away until u need more. I have a rat cage + 2 plastic tubs and a fish tank with wire on top to grow some on to the size u want. I have 1 snake maybe another 1 down the track. maybe a waste of money but I enjoy it and it don't bother me to spend the money imo.


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## pinefamily (Oct 14, 2016)

+1 for mice smelling more than rats. We used to have one tub of mice, and several tubs of rats. The one tub smelt worse than all of the rats together.


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## Allan (Oct 14, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> +1 for mice smelling more than rats. We used to have one tub of mice, and several tubs of rats. The one tub smelt worse than all of the rats together.



I've found that mice usually wee in one corner of the tub and you can scoop out most of it using plastic disposable gloves. 

Why can't you try the Stimmies with rat pups instead of adult mice?


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## Buggster (Oct 15, 2016)

Adult mice and pinky mice are pretty much the only thing all the local stores have on offer :/
The adult mice are probably on the top end of what he can eat, but he'll only take one every fortnight or so. He'll be coming up to two years this December and currently weights about 300g, the mice are about 20-30g each- so far so good. The stimmies is right now exclusively eating mice- the one time I find rat pups and he won't touch them at all! Offer a rat first, refused. Immediately offer a mouse and he pretty much launched himself out of his cage to get it. 
Then again, about a year ago he would only eat rats... funny little bugger he is.


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## Nero Egernia (Oct 15, 2016)

I agree with Saximus. I breed most of my lizard food and that includes mice, quails, and woodies. The woodies are relatively easy to feed and house. Mice are easy to feed and house too but, as has already been stated, they apparently smell something awful. Establishing good bloodlines is paramount. Even good bloodlines sometimes pop up a bad mouse or two. You have to watch out for cannibalism, aggression to other mice, and aggression towards yourself. I once had a male that would attack newborn litters and chew a hole in their bellies, before discarding the corpses. When I detected that he was the culprit he instantly became lizard food. 

While I don't hate breeding mice, I don't particularly enjoy it either. Some days can feel like a chore. But I was never much of a rodent person. 

There are other small animals you can breed to feed your snakes. I recommend Japanese Quail. They not only feed your reptiles, but they can feed you and your family via their carcasses and eggs. They're bigger than mice, although I'm not sure how they compare to commercially produced rats as I've only really had contact with monster rats that are around the size of a small cat! Quails also don't stink like mice do! These birds lay eggs just about everyday, although they will take a break over winter. However if you had a good productive season your freezer should be well stocked. Alternatively I have heard that artificial lighting and heating results with laying all year round. The eggs do need artificial incubation (or they can be placed under a broody hen, I get more success incubating them myself) as the parent birds have little to no brooding instincts. Eggs typically hatch around 16-18 days and the babies generally mature at around six weeks. Larger strains will take longer however. Quails are essentially miniature chooks, and I find them more enjoyable to keep and breed.

I too find cervical dislocation to be the best method of killing feeder animals.

Good luck with whatever critter you choose to breed to feed your reptiles.


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## Jen (Oct 24, 2016)

Can you describe how you cull your quail? I have been breeding mice for many years and am comfortable with CD, but when I have tried with chickens, the head just pops off...


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## Buggster (Oct 25, 2016)

Not sure how I'd feel about quails- I've got a small flock of pet chooks that I adore. Don't know how I'd feel about killing off a bird so simmiar to them. 
Although incubation here is easy. I've got one extremely broody hen right now- despite having her nest box blocked off during daylight hours for the last week, she'll jump at any chance to sit on it again, eggs or no eggs. Usually she'll sit the whole 20-30 days before gradually starting to lay her own eggs again... silly chook.
You always know when the season has changed cause that's when she'll go sit on the nest like it's the most important thing in the world... for an extrordinarily smart bird, chickens can be rather feather brained at times


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## HiramAbiff (Oct 25, 2016)

The main reason I think breeding your own rodents is a good idea is the fact that you won't have to rely on anyone for your reptile food. 
After being stuffed around at least 3 times, years ago by one person who would message half an hour before they were meant to meet you while they are doing a rat run you learn pretty quick some people aren't reliable.


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## Nero Egernia (Oct 25, 2016)

Jen said:


> Can you describe how you cull your quail? I have been breeding mice for many years and am comfortable with CD, but when I have tried with chickens, the head just pops off...



Hi Jen, sounds like you may be pulling too hard. I'll try to explain it as best as I can. Gripping the head and yanking is the general method here, although birds that I prepare for human consumption I remove their heads anyway, not so with the reptiles however. With tiny chicks, if you find your hands are too big and clumsy, the pencil method that can be used on mice can work here, although it's a little different. Grip the bird's legs with one hand and then place the bird's head on the ground. Then place and hold a pencil or other small long object just behind the bird's head. Firmly, but not too hard, with the hand that is gripping the legs, pull up and you should feel the head disconnect from the neck. With larger birds, you can do it differently from the pencil method. I grip the bird's ankles and lay them on my lap or between my thighs, their head pointing down and away from my body. With my other hand I grip the bird just behind the head, feeling the back of the jaw is a good indicator that you're in the right place. Then firmly, but not too hard (otherwise the head can come off), you pull the head back and push down. You will now feel a gap between the head and the neck. The head will feel loose and disconnected from the rest of the body. Don't worry about the wild flapping, they all do this and it's just nerves. I hope this explains it adequately. Somehow it seems easier just doing it than explaining.



Buggster said:


> Not sure how I'd feel about quails- I've got a small flock of pet chooks that I adore. Don't know how I'd feel about killing off a bird so simmiar to them.



Quails are indeed very similar to chooks and can have just as much personality. Culling is nothing new to me, I was raised on a farm.


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## icuucme2 (Oct 29, 2016)

hey guys/gals, im trying to decide in leaving the male rat with the females all the time, or take him away once I know the females are pregnant. I know if I leave him in the females will get pregnant again after the litter is born, what do most ppl do with there rodent breeding. I understand there producing feeders but I still want to do the right thing, they are a living animal and I don't want to mistreat any animal. btw I love the soda stream way, way better than baking soda and more humane I reckon.


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## pinefamily (Oct 29, 2016)

You need to leave him in once, to observe if he will eat the pups. Some do, some don't. That is the deciding reason for leaving the male in, or taking him out.


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## icuucme2 (Oct 30, 2016)

thanks I have some pups due soon but not from my males my males are young but the females arrived pregnant so hopefully all will be good


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## Woma_Wild (Oct 30, 2016)

Pet shop near me sell 3pkt adult rats for $54.00 and adult mice 7 pkt for $34.00 so I too have decided to try my hand at breeding mice. My brother is going to do the rats. 
Will be interesting to see how much it costs after a few months of breeding.


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## Buggster (Oct 30, 2016)

Woma_Wild said:


> Pet shop near me sell 3pkt adult rats for $54.00 and adult mice 7 pkt for $34.00 so I too have decided to try my hand at breeding mice. My brother is going to do the rats.
> Will be interesting to see how much it costs after a few months of breeding.



I feel your pain- bought 16 rats for over $100 the other day. And this is probably the cheapest place near me. Hmm. 
Been too busy lately, but hopefully sooner or later I'll get my own rats to breed.


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## icuucme2 (Oct 30, 2016)

gawd $54 I paid $18 for 3 weaner rats why I started doing my own. my boi is only on med size so I don't have to wait to long to get them to weight and than freeze them.


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## Woma_Wild (Oct 31, 2016)

some places really overcharge on feeders. another store in north richmond, selling the SAME brand of rats sells them for $30 /3 pkt. they don't always have them in stock. 

I am buying the super mice, Quackenbusch (sp). According to research, they can leave babies in with the adults without fear of them getting eaten, unlike normal pet shop mice.


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## Buggster (Oct 31, 2016)

I have seen a litter of genuine supermice that was half eaten by the surrounding adults. Generally it's the first litter as all the females play a huge 'tug of war' with the pups (and consequently kill them) as they all concentrate on a single litter. But yes, in general they're not as likely to kill a litter as your standard pet shop mice. But for most small time breeders, if you do notice that the pups are being eaten, it's best to move mum and pups to somewhere seperate or you risk loosing the entire litter.


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## icuucme2 (Oct 31, 2016)

The stock that I have are from a guy who breeds em up and sells them off as feeders so these aint handled much, so my girls aint that friendly not ready to rip my fingers off but u cant hold them. so moving em around too much isn't a option without planning for a big game hunt lol.


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## snakehunter (Oct 31, 2016)

Have you considered just buying frozen stock from a rodent breeder, instead of from pet stores? Take out the middle man and you will save quite a few $$


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## Buggster (Oct 31, 2016)

None that are local- and I can't have them shipped here as I'm just not home during the day and the weather really is starting to heat up- got a dozen things that would try to get into a packet of rats/mice left on the doorstep also.


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## icuucme2 (Nov 11, 2016)

just had 9 babies (Rats) born a couple of days ago, just gotta remember what there here for lol. so 9 feeders in a couple of months coming up. Momma is a b..tch tried to kill me when I took the food bowl out to fill it up, she has signed her warrant when my boi is big enough to eat adults lol


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## pinefamily (Nov 12, 2016)

The females often get defensive when they have a litter, maternal instinct and all that. As soon as they are old enough to eat for themselves, take them away from the mother into a separate tub to grow.


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## apprenticegnome (Nov 12, 2016)

I'd recommend a bit of research on the net. Rats will sometimes kill babies as they make noise and if the rats feel there is a potential threat near by the kill them so as not to bring attention to them. I randomly purchase rats when starting a breeding colony and there has been no overthinking involved. I just asked for a couple of males and females. Females often attack hands as defense when they have young and will settle back down when the babies have grown independent. I find them financially benificial as i don't go into buying overpriced rodent specific feeds and substrate. Shredded paper from my accountant lines the tubs and a mix of food scraps, vegetable scraps (free) from grocer and dry pet food goes a long way. They are after all scavengers in the wild.


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## icuucme2 (Nov 12, 2016)

yeah I understand mothers are defensive of there young, she hasn't been to bad since I don't handle em anyways as there not going to be pets. I have 4 cages for breeders and 3 for growing out, im lucky atm my snake is only on med size so I don't have to grow em on too long.


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## pinefamily (Nov 13, 2016)

As apprenticegnome has said, vegetable scraps are a good cheap option for food. Just be careful what you use though. Some are actually bad for them like potato peel and bok choy and cabbage. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## icuucme2 (Nov 13, 2016)

i just buy rabbit and g/pig mix, than add extra bird seed, I also add muesli just the black and gold, and fruit loops the cheap version. I also get the fruit/vegies that are just about expired for a dollar. also a rat block but there not that keen on it never had it b4 I got if off ebay. I read somewhere that bok choy was ok as I have given em that many times with silver beet and spinach.


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## pinefamily (Nov 13, 2016)

I think we fed bok choy to the adults ok but I killed a whole grow out tub once with it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## apprenticegnome (Nov 13, 2016)

I've fed bok choy and cabbage with no ill effects to both parents an young. May have been contaminated or some other problem has wiped them out. I've just watched how much vegies I give as too much seems to give them runny stools.


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## icuucme2 (Nov 13, 2016)

i give mine vegies twice a week, and little bit of fruit once a week as well as there regular food.


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## icuucme2 (Dec 3, 2016)

my rat breeding is coming along nicely I will soon have to many rats to feed to the snake lol I better get more snakes lol. got about 30 bubs atm and 10 females ready soon to pop.


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## icuucme2 (Dec 11, 2016)

for the past week we have had some severe hot weather here, and I have lost 1 female with her bubs and 1 young female to the heat. I have been putting frozen water bottles in every cage and every hour changing there water to cold water from the fridge which is doing the job but still a couple of set backs. and I aint bringing em inside the house lol. But I do have some feeder females I will keep to replace the ones I lost and I still have 23 bubs


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## pinefamily (Dec 12, 2016)

Get a cheap fan in there.


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## icuucme2 (Dec 12, 2016)

there in a car port no sides so they get the breeze but its a hot breeze. they aint in the sun cause there beside the house


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## icuucme2 (Dec 17, 2016)

hi all my snake hasn't eaten in 2 weeks which is not like him at all, but he did shed 2 days ago. trying to feed him tonight so if I leave the rat in all night and he don't eat it can I freeze it, it is a freshly culled rat from this arvo, but do u think being in the cage all night it would be off? thanks


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## pinefamily (Dec 18, 2016)

Personally I wouldn't refreeze after leaving it in the cage overnight.


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## icuucme2 (Dec 18, 2016)

this one hasn't been frozen b4 it was fresh.


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## pinefamily (Dec 18, 2016)

It's the equivalent of leaving fresh chicken on the sink overnight. Would you think it's still ok to freeze it the next day?


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## Woma_Wild (Dec 18, 2016)

on those super hot days, I fill water bottles and freeze overnight. the next day, i put them in with my mice. you soon see them tunnelling around the cold bottles. mine are in my shed and it gets extremely hot in there. they may be feeders but I don't want them suffering in the meantime.


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## icuucme2 (Dec 18, 2016)

i do the same I freeze bottles of water and put them in I also refill there drinking water from the water that I have in the fridge. My snake ate his rat last nite so I aint worried now.


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