# Snake catching experiences



## BredliFreak (Nov 24, 2015)

Hi everyone,

As my herp addiction continues, I have realised I want to learn how to deal with venomous snakes, so I was wondering:
-What was the first snake you caught, and how/why?
-What tips / experience do you have to share with beginners who want to deal with vens?

My personal experience isn't much, I come across rbbs and small eyed snakes regularly and I have used sticks to move RBBs, small eyeds and a brown once (though now I think it was a delma).

Keep in mind I won't go out and catch a brown straight away and kill myself etc etc, I'm not that reckless!

Bredli


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## ronhalling (Nov 24, 2015)

[MENTION=41799]BredliFreak[/MENTION], IMO you should contact 1 of the more experienced snake relocaters on this forum ASAP and ask them about venomous snake handling courses in your area before you get hit by 1 of them Delma's and we end up with 1 less member on our forum.  ......................Ron


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## BredliFreak (Nov 24, 2015)

Hi ron,

Thanks for the advice, but unfortunately I am a bit too... young to attend courses at this stage, I was just asking about experience (regardless of tips or not) and what others have to share, whether it be yarns or advice. Maybe if I'm lucky someone might know someone who could act as a mentor.

A bit of background info,

I want to be able to relocate snakes (as a part time snake catcher) when I am older, and also I would like experience so I could work with the vens at my local reptile centre. I will probably start with wild pythons and small elapids (e.g dwyers YFWS white-lippeds etc.) then work my way up.

Thanks Ron, anyone else have any advice *cough veterans cough*


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## cement (Nov 24, 2015)

BredliFreak said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> As my herp addiction continues, I have realised I want to learn how to deal with venomous snakes, so I was wondering:
> -What was the first snake you caught, and how/why?
> ...



"I want to be able to relocate snakes (as a part time snake catcher) when I am older, and also I would like experience so I could work with the vens at my local reptile centre. I will probably start with wild pythons and small elapids (e.g dwyers YFWS white-lippeds etc.) then work my way up."


What do you mean "deal" with? Do mean find them and play with them in the bush? Is this what you mean by "starting with wild pythons"?
My tip as a relocator is this.... if its what you want to do, then align yourself with the local reptile centre and learn from them, get expert in snake bite first aid, and most importantly.... try to underdstand how snakes fit into the environment, how each different species has evolved to fill a particular niche and particular food source or sources. 
Remember too, that no matter how much you know or think you know, there is no room for being complacent or blase when your within the strike range. The speed at which these guys can go is probably always a surprise to the bitten, no matter how 'veteran' you may be!


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## GBWhite (Nov 24, 2015)

Hi Bredli,

Most of my generation gained our experience going out in the field with friends and gradually getting experience through collecting the less dangerous vens such s YFWS, Swam Snakes and Mustard Bellied Snakes that we found around the Sydney area. This provided the opportunity to get to know techniques and gain confidence before we tackled the more dangerous ones. 

My advice in regard to obtaining experience is to try and align yourself with a mentor who is willing to take you out in the field and get experience with handling the less dangerous vens before you even contemplate taking on anything more dangerous. You might be able to achieve this by joining a local herp group in your area or if one isn't available join the AHS or HHS and attend field trips. This way you'll meet experienced people who may be willing to mentor you.

Alternatively try and see if you can volunteer to undertake work at a venue that displays vens. Personally due to WH&S regulations these days I doubt if they will allow you the opportunity to engage with such animals however you might be provided the experience to watch and learn. I don't know how old you are but again due WH&S regulation age may be a contributing factor in not being provided the opportunity to become a volunteer.

Other than that my friend it may just be a case of being patient until your old enough to spread you wings.

All the best with your endeavour.

George.


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## BredliFreak (Nov 24, 2015)

Thankyou for your advice both of you,

Yeah George I am planning to volunteer when I am old enough (a "tad" young) though like you I doubt I will be dealing with vens for quite some time. I will follow what you said about having a mentor, I'll try and attend ACTHA's christmas party and see if I have any luck.

Thanks,
Bredli


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## imported-varanus (Nov 26, 2015)

You'll also need to move interstate, assuming you are in the ACT. No relocations are permitted, unless with NPWS or similar. You could try some volunteer work with Canberra Reptile Centre?


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 26, 2015)

Joining ACTHA and getting to know experienced keepers is a good move. Hopefully that will not only result in appropriately supervised field trips, but also getting to observe and learn about snakes and handling of them via the collections of other members. You can and will learn a lot about snake behaviour through careful and considered observation and asking lots of questions.

Please don’t be in such a hurry to handle vens. The fact that you have already “used sticks to move RBBs, small eyeds and a brown once” is a worry. While RBB and Small-eyed are generally passive snakes, they are far from harmless. As for Browns, even a juvenile can deliver a potentially fatal bite. Take your time and learn how to properly handle harmless captive snakes first, including how to use a snake hook and not sticks. 

Having personally witnessed the results of a couple of serious envenomations in youths, I can assure you it was not pretty. Luckily both survived, following a period of hospitalisation. One is now a very well known ‘veteran’ snake showman and educator. He would be the first to admit his foolishness and the fact that he was lucky. Clearly those that did not survive are not in the ‘veterans’category to tell their tales of warning.

It seems there a need to improve your field ID skills. At the very least, buy yourself a quality field guide that covers all the reptiles in your region and read it! Then continually refer to it. Make up a local species list and start learning as much as you can about each one on that list - their preferred habitats, their behaviour, diagnostic features that allow you to identify and distinguish between them, etc. Your local library can be a treasure trove, with books like Rick Shine’s “Australian Snakes A Natural History” - well worth reading cover to cover if you are as keen as you indicate.

You mentioned Dwyer’s Snake (_Parasuta dwyeri_). Are you able to positively distinguish between this species and the closely related, very similar _Parasuta flagellum_? Also, are you aware of the significant difference in toxicity of their venoms? 

On any bush walk people should dress protectively, never go alone, take pressure bandages and know how to apply pressure-immobilisation first aid effectively. Enjoy your herping but please don't don't put yourself in harm's way!


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## cement (Nov 27, 2015)

Not only do you need to be able to recognise and handle snakes in all manner of situations, beleive me its a lot different in the field then in a controlled pit environment where handling courses take place, but you also need to be able to confidently communicate with the public.

Relocating finds you in some very tricky situations at times, not only with the snakes, but with the public.......
yesterday for eg, I get a call from a guy who has a snake pinned with a shovel. He (wonders of technology) googles on his phone, gets me and I'm talking to him within minutes. 
He's in a panic, as usual.
By the time I get there the 1.2m green tree snake has a broken back and paralysed from midbody down. He has already googled green tree snake from my ID over the phone and is now feeling bad that he fatally injured a harmless species.

You WILL be in constant contact with people who do not think highly of snakes. 
So, you need to be able to talk to people who are in a state of high emotion, they sometimes say stuff that your just gonna have to pretend you didn't hear, tell the truth, dispell the wives tales and rumours, stay calm.

The pet hobby tends to propagate a romantic idea of snakes, I've heard over and over how people who keep a couple of pythons and read about the rest, go off at joe public for not being so emotionally attached to the world of snakes. 

This probably sounds a bit cryptic but I hope you get the meaning here.

You will also be the centre of attention, and have to be calm, level headed and confident in your ability to make it look easy. I did another one in a cul de sac when by the time I got there, there was a full on crowd plus two cop cars full of cops. Hope you don't get stage fright, it could mean a bite.


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## GBWhite (Nov 27, 2015)

Yeah Graham your not wrong about the common reaction of you get from Joe Public and often being the centre of attention at times when you arrive for a removal...hahaha. Can't begin to count the number of times it's happened over the years.

Had one occasion where I arrived at the rear of a sports store to find the staff and some from the neighbouring store all sitting on a back step of the shop with beers and pies waiting to watch the show. They were amazed and disappointed that it was all over a very short time after I arrived that they asked if I could put it back and catch it again because it happened that quick and looked so easy that they missed the whole event. 

The cops where I used to live in Inverell had me on speed dial for calls and I'd find it quite funny when I arrived at a scene to see them standing back, often with their hands on their pieces and watch with amazement as I bagged a nice brown or red-belly. They'd often comment on how easy I made it look but happily decline any offer for them to have a go...hahaha.

All the best,

George.


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## cement (Nov 27, 2015)

I know what you mean mate, the cops are great, its like they all sitting around with nothing to do so they all turn up to check it out!! If my phone rings after midnight I know its them!

I rarely drink but on one night I had a thing on and ended up well...smashed, phone rang at around 1.30 am, yep police, with a guy who has a snake in his bedroom, i remember dropping the phone after stumbling around in the dark, trying to find a pen and paper took what I thought was his number and address, hung up and fell back asleep. 10 mins later the home owner rings me and I worked out it was bandybandy, so I asked him to bend a coat hanger and put it in a bucket and let it go. He said ok. that was that.
he rang me again at 7.00am saying "mate, I just can't do it, I need help its freaking me out". So I got my better half to drive me down there, apologised for not really being much help cause of the state i was in and sorted it. had to laugh though when i found the paper I thought I wrote his address on, it was indecipherable!

Had another one where a policewoman rang me because they had confiscated a young python at a drug raid or something, she said she had been looking after it for a week and both she and her daughter had fallen in love with it and wanted to keep it!! I put it to the NPWS and I have literally never seen a licence been granted so quickly..... I offerred to help her bychecking the enclosure etc but never heard back.


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## Dopamel (Nov 28, 2015)

the first wild snake i caught was a brown snake....completely by accident, it was a silver baby, looked nothing like a brown snake! Back in Indiana we have 190ish species and only 2 are venemous so when i see wild snakes I still think they'll be non vens like ribbon garters....thankfully it spurred me on to go out and catch more Brown snakes and skinks.


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## BredliFreak (Dec 5, 2015)

Thank you for your replies,

@importedvaranus I never knew that, thanks for telling me that.

Blue, I have a field guide (the latest wilson and swan) to help me with my ID's (though as you said I need to improve a bit first) but I'll have a look at that book, seems very interesting. I am well aware of the venom toxicity between the Little whip and the dwyers and I know that the Little whip also posses a pale band across the snout which breaks the black head blotch, but again I will need to improve (as you said).

George and Graham, thanks for the advice, I love it when I hear stories like that (half the reason I started this thread). I think public speaking experience will certainly help in the calm area!

Thanks,
Bredli


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## eipper (Dec 6, 2015)

Bluetongue1;[FONT=verdana said:


> ][/FONT]
> 
> You mentioned Dwyer’s Snake (_Parasuta dwyeri_). Are you able to positively distinguish between this species and the closely related, very similar _Parasuta flagellum_? Also, are you aware of the significant difference in toxicity of their venoms?
> 
> !



do you have any evidence of this? I doubt there is anything other than a marginal difference in yield and toxicity


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## GBWhite (Dec 6, 2015)

eipper said:


> I doubt there is anything other than a marginal difference in yield and toxicity



I agree Scott.

I recall the death of some bloke that happened a while back that was a result of a P flagellum bite. It had nothing to do with a difference in the toxicity between the two species, it was actually reported to be an allergic reaction .

Knowing the nature of these guys he must have been holding and mucking around with it to get tagged. I've never been nailed by one but from what friends that have tell me, a bite usually results in a bit of pain and local swelling.

Bredli,

While I'm here. 

FYI the distinguishing characteristic between P flagellum and the rest of the genus (including dwyeri) is the mid body scale count; ie: P flagellum = 17(+)mbs, all the rest = 15mbs.

Also, Rick's book is a pretty good read, likewise Steve and Gerry's, Complete Guide to Reptiles of Australia as well as their field guides but if your as keen as it seems and you don't own one already, I recommend you get yourself a copy of Hal Cogger's Reptiles and Amphibians of Australia, seventh addition. 

George.


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## eipper (Dec 6, 2015)

Hi George,

I knew the guy who was killed in 07- it was anaphylaxis brought on by a minor envenomation. 

Cheers
scott


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 9, 2015)

BredliFreak said:


> ...I am well aware of the venom toxicity between the Little whip and the dwyers and I know that the Little whip also posses a pale band across the snout which breaks the black head blotch, but again I will need to improve (as you said)...


Thanks for responding to my question. Unfortunately, in my attempts to illustrate the point that here is often more to learn about your local species than initially meets the eye, I unintentionally set you up to fail. I do apologise for that. While the difference in the dark head blotches is a good indicator, you can occasional variations that don’t follow the rule. Firm confirmation of species identity (as has already been stated) requires a mid-body scale count. 

The question relating to toxicity was simply to determine if you were aware that there was a fatality as a result of a bite form _P. flagellum_. - experienced herper 37 year old Ron Siggins at Harcourt North in Victoria, 15 April 2007. Due to my typing skills I omitted the qualifying term “possible” in front of the difference in venom toxicity. I also used the “toxicity” in general sense of something that can harm, rather than the technical sense of an actual measure such as an LD50. In retrospect I realize I should have used a simple phrase, such as “effects of the venom”, to avoid confusion. 

While there is limited information available on the net about the incident, it does warrant being looked at. It appears he had taken a number of bites in the past. If he was previously envenomated, this would rule out any inherit allergic reaction to a component of the venom. However, it is possible that he may have developed a sensitivity to it as a result of previous exposure. Development of sensitivity as a result of envenomation usually involves reopeated exposure with an increase in the reaction each. However, as best I can ascertain, there is no guarantee that this is necessarily the case. It was also suggested that he may have experienced complications as a result of medication he was taking for neck and spinal injuries. Irrespective of the actual cause of death, doing this sort of research can make your more aware of what can happen and may hopefully encourage you to ensure you are less likely to allow yourself to be bitten by even ‘harmless’ snakes.


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## GBWhite (Dec 9, 2015)

Bredli,

As as far as I'm concerned you didn't fail anything because it wasn't a test. Like any profession there is a vast difference between only being educated through reading and having no first hand experience.

As far as getting bitten goes the old saying "if you play with fire then expect to get burnt" applies to handling any type of reptile on a regular basis just as it does to many, many, vocations, hobbies or pastimes that you or anyone else may pursue in your lifetime.

You don't strike me as a silly person and my advise is that if your intention is to pursue a career that involves handling venomous reptiles, then just realise that inherent dangers abound when dealing with these sort of animals. Caution, safety & awareness are the key issues.

Don't be discouraged by anyones comments. Confidence in handling them safely will only come through time and first hand experience.

All the best,

George.

Following a request from admin I have edited this post as a result of a complaint lodged by Bluetongue. I do this reluctantly and only as a courtesy to the moderators and as a means as to not have the thread closed. Editing should not be considered as an apology for the previous comments relating to the complainant.


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## cement (Dec 9, 2015)

The worst part of snake catching.




Another tip, do not form attachments to things like "my favourite hook"
or "my lucky pinner". A good venomous reptile handler will learn the animal instead, for example... browns strike/react differently to blacks, which react differently to tigers etc. Every species has a different MO, you can only learn that through experience with them.
In other words a good catcher won't worry that he doesn't have his favourite hook because he knows the snake, a lot of the work can be done without hooks or pinners, they are tools that help position an animal for picking up but if your on your own and don't have anyone to hold the hoop bag then your going to have to be good at tailing because you cant use a hook and a bag at the same time.
Tailing and holding the front section with a hook is great for showing the snake off and getting your photo taken..... but you gotta drop the hook to pick up the bag, so learn the snake.


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## butters (Dec 10, 2015)

? I agree that tailing safely is a skill well learnt but I use a hook and bag routinely at the same time by myself. I guess it depends on the style of bag you use. I don't use one of the old style round hoop bags but one with a " landing net" style frame. Coastal and inland Tai's are my least favorite because those suckers are smart. Eastern browns almost catch themselves.
Definitely you need to know the species you are dealing with. They all have their own little quirks and unless you know these you can get in trouble. 
I really only tail when dealing with captive snakes during cleaning but have had to with some complicated catches.
That's a different version of a " pinner" than I'm used to seeing Cement.


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## cement (Dec 13, 2015)

Yes, on taking another look at my last post I see it came out a bit easy to misunderstand.
That photo was a call out the other day and goes with the title of the worst type of call out. Poor thing had a 45kg gas bottle dropped on it and had to be euthed. very sad accident. No ones fault just a horrible thing to happen. I put it up to show what we deal with at times, its not all glitz and glamour like the add for "snake boss" makes out. Makes me wonder if she belly crawls through cobweb and rat infested roof spaces........, 

Each to his own Butters, I find that hooking into a bag is great and works well in a controlled environment like a pit when I'm teaching catching, but in the feild it is very rare that I have a simple hook into the bag scenario as the animal is always under or behind something, or in danger of escaping me into a more difficult spot, so straight out tailing, or hook and tail, or pinning and heading is more viable. I'm curious though to ask how often you deal with wild coastal and inland taipans in a relocation situation mate?


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## butters (Dec 17, 2015)

Wild coastals to be honest I haven't dealt with for a few years but when I was up north it was a regular occurrence. The closest I have ever been to being bitten by something venomous was a coastal Tai and I as tailing hence why I tend not to do it now. I deal with captives coastals and inlands on a weekly basis and also teach catching methods albeit not in a pit.
ive only seen inlands in the field 3 times and there was no need for relocation. So to answer your question not recently for coastals and never for inlands. Get the occasional call saying there is a taipan locally but it's always turned out to be misidentified or gone. There are records from the area but I've yet to see one near Brisbane. 
I agree each to their own. If it works for you great and there are situations where different methods may be a better option.


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## Waterrat (Dec 17, 2015)

Hook is a great tool when dealing with captives or flipping death adders but there is no place for a hook outdoors with wild coastals or any other large elapid. The don't "ride hook" like many crotalids and vipers do and lets face it, we only have two hands: one is holding a hoop bag and the other one is manoeuvring the snake in. JMO


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## butters (Dec 17, 2015)

Agreed we only have two hands and for me one is holding the bag, the other is maneuvering the snake.... most times using a hook. I would never expect a large elapid to "ride" hook but you don't always have to lift a snake to get it in a bag. I guess technique and catching methods plays a big part in a hooks usefulness. I tailed and bagged for years but find I do it less frequently now.


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 18, 2015)

To express a baseless negative opinion on someone is bad enough. However, to fabricate blatant lies about someone to tell to others is a different league. It is something I cannot stomach and will not tolerate, regardless of the nature of those falsehoods. 

One is left to ponder basic ethics and common decency. I have been patient but now must question the worth of continuing where these are insufficiently supported.


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## pythoninfinite (Dec 18, 2015)

Interesting thread ! As a Perthite in my school years, and with a relentless interest in snakes (in particular), I could almost always guarantee I'd find at least one Dugite if I went out and looked in the right places. I always hoped I'd find a Carpet, but they are pretty thin on the ground around Perth. I have to say I was very silly in my younger years - the sense that I was bulletproof being a dangerous characteristic of the young. I brought numerous Dugites and other vens home, not always telling my parents (my father did NOT approve...) and even kept them in (probably) not very secure accommodations in my room. Stupid in hindsight, and a real risk to me and other family members in the house. On one occasion I caught a 1.5m Dugite and having nowhere to put it when I got home, dropped it (in a pillowcase) into the chooks' pellet bin. My father used to feed the chooks before he went to work, long before I got up, and the next morning he did as he usually did, the difference that day being that a large and very angry Dugite leaped up at him when he took the lid off - it had escaped from the pillowcase overnight. I was NOT popular... but it did initiate the beginning of a sensible dialogue between my parents and me, and the eventual working-out of a plan to allow me to indulge my obsession in a more safe and open way. Since those early days, I've seen numerous cases of rapid death from snakebite, and not always from the usual suspects. I would never be complacent about being bitten by any elapid, because individual sensitivities are so unpredictable - just a couple of years ago a bloke died up this way from a Stephen's Banded bite because help was unavailable for hours due to flooding (they are pugnacious damned things). Even Small-eyeds will have a decent crack at you if you interfere with them (see heaps around here at night), and I wouldn't like to be bitten by one of them. The only ven that has bitten me was a small Bardick, and it was more like a mild bee sting. 

I'm glad that you are a lot more thoughtful than I was about the inherent dangers of handling vens of all sorts BF, and it sounds like you're following a workable plan to achieve your goal. Heed the advice offered here, be patient, be careful, NEVER be casual, and you should be fine. Like riding high-powered sports bikes (which I still do) - the older you get, the more you realise a split second can make the difference between life & death - judgement is everything.

Jamie


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## BredliFreak (Dec 18, 2015)

Thank you for all the replies, they were informative and I enjoyed hearing the stories of your snake-catching. 

I'm curious (this is off topic) about how the small eyed snakes vary geographically with their venom? Seeing as they are fairly common it would be good to know the toxicity around the south coast (we have animals and small kids around the place).

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, as of now you can be a licenced snake catcher in the ACT. The government decided to change license laws, now who woulda thought?


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## cement (Dec 18, 2015)

One of the most difficult things you can do is categorise venom toxicity, there are too many variables.
Do not underestimate a bite from any small eyed. Like the RSS I get the idea that they are another underrated species, but i personally don't have much info on them, maybe eipper or someone else would know.

pythoninfinite - When I heard of the poor old bloke that died from the hop bite during the floods, I wondered if he didn't know the first aid. I could never find anything on that point though, do u know if he administered it?


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