# NSW shops gets the go ahead



## Amazing Amazon (Mar 22, 2013)

Heard that it was signed off last night that reptiles can now be sold in shops in NSW. Can anyone confirm?


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## Rob (Mar 22, 2013)

I must say after the last thread, I wasn't expecting another so soon.

This _could_ get interesting.


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## REPTILIAN-KMAN (Mar 22, 2013)

dont think its true cant find it anywhere in bills and legislations passed lately including bills and acts passed late last nite at 1.00am heres the link 

NSW Legislation


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## Amazing Amazon (Mar 22, 2013)

Have heard it from 2 different reliable sources!


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## solar 17 (Mar 22, 2013)

YES it went through @ 4.00 pm yesterday, solar 17


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## Gruni (Mar 22, 2013)

I found this on another site and 'borrowed' the link, it is a fax that was sent out yesterday...


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## Wally (Mar 22, 2013)

Fax machines.... so 90's.

Can only hope the Department of Whatever It's Called This Week gets adequate funding to allow supervision/inspections to weed out some of the crap I've witnessed down here in Vic.


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## imported_Varanus (Mar 22, 2013)

My sentiments exactly Wal! I've seen some shocking stuff and was unfortunately even part of the process back in the early 70's, collecting Shinglebacks from Western Vic for sale through pet shops in Metro Melbourne. Needless to say, the vast majority (if not all) died from RI's.


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## Xeaal (Mar 22, 2013)

Yes.. agree with above; some of the conditions reptiles are kept in at Victorian pet shops is disgraceful! Would love to name and shame some of these outlets on this forum, but it's probably not allowed.


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## FAY (Mar 22, 2013)

Xeaal said:


> Yes.. agree with above; some of the conditions reptiles are kept in at Victorian pet shops is disgraceful! Would love to name and shame some of these outlets on this forum, but it's probably not allowed.



Well, you can only hope, it is the government after all, that they are aware of the crap that may have happened in other states regarding selling reptiles in Pet shops and maybe have learnt something from it, to make sure it does not happen in NSW.


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## Cypher69 (Mar 22, 2013)

I can't wait to buy my first 2ft Carpet & Fish-tank Starter-Kit.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

Cypher69 said:


> I can't wait to buy my first 2ft Carpet & Fish-tank Starter-Kit.


Hope it comes with a heat rock. Pythons can't survive in captivity without a heat rock


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## Umbral (Mar 22, 2013)

Don't forget the UVB bulb! 

It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## Grogshla (Mar 22, 2013)

wow this is some cool news. Hopefully the petshops have some sort of training or education provided to their employees so that the animals are taken care of properly. Just going off what I see in petshops with dead fish in fish tanks, dogs and cats and rabbits stinking with stool everywhere... Just hope it helps the hobby and not stuffs it up. 
Either way exciting and interesting times are ahead of us.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 22, 2013)

To be perfectly honest I'd rather reptiles not be sold in pet stores. I'd put money on them not being looked after properly.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> To be perfectly honest I'd rather reptiles not be sold in pet stores. I'd put money on them not being looked after properly.


Just depends on the owners. Here in wa there are good and bad pet shops selling reptiles. 
I keep hearing about one SOR that sold my friend a heat rock. After it burnt her stimi the owner told her he has to stock and recommend the products as part of his contract with the distributor. What a load of crap.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 22, 2013)

Wait, this may be a stupid question, but does that mean you don't need a license here in NSW to keep reptiles?


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## Rob (Mar 22, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> Wait, this may be a stupid question, but does that mean you don't need a license here in NSW to keep reptiles?



What gives you that idea ? The law has been changed to allow the sale of reptiles in pet shops. I've read nothing about a licensing change.


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## Grogshla (Mar 22, 2013)

you will still need a license but you will be able to buy the reptiles at pet shops instead of just at breeders


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## bigjoediver (Mar 22, 2013)

Luckily here in Adelaide we have a number of good reptile specific stores that are owned and run by enthusiasts who are experienced and knowledgable. Hopefully you can get the same situation over there.


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## Grogshla (Mar 22, 2013)

bigjoediver said:


> Luckily here in Adelaide we have a number of good reptile specific stores that are owned and run by enthusiasts who are experienced and knowledgable. Hopefully you can get the same situation over there.



It would be awesome if we had some reptile only pet shops open that were run by enthusiasts. That would be cool. Or even breeders opening up a shop etc.


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

The worst thing could of happened there's gunna be alot of mistreated reptiles out there becoz of this


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## Rob (Mar 22, 2013)

bigjoediver said:


> Luckily here in Adelaide we have a number of good reptile specific stores that are owned and run by enthusiasts who are experienced and knowledgable. Hopefully you can get the same situation over there.



There are at least 3 stores I can think of which would fit that category - One based at Narellan, one at Liverpool and another at Kellyville. I am sure there would be others as well.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

Maybe some of the reptile parks in NSW will also sell stock?!
There is at least one in WA that does.


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## REPTILIAN-KMAN (Mar 22, 2013)

for years i used to amke trips to melbourne to buy from shops and it was worthwhile but the more time i spent searching the abuse i would see ! I saw one guy even had dead reptiles in an enclosure ! he was well known as an abuser and several discussions on here i always used to see mentioned they would walk in and be disgusted by how he kept them but he wasnt the only one many shops were of poor standard ! there r a few out there like Amazon & mentone that i would buy from but thats it ! i saw a reali nice massive EWD and wanted him but he looked sick and for $280 but i wanted him so bad


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## Varanoidea (Mar 22, 2013)

The more I think about it, the more against it I am. Rest assured every petshop within a close distance from me will be getting regular visits to make sure their reptiles are being treated properly. Everyone should do the same for their local petshops and report them if they are abusing.


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## woody101 (Mar 22, 2013)

Are they going to be all reptiles or restricted to small pythons like QLD


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## Shotta (Mar 22, 2013)

the breeders that sell to petstores should be partly responsible


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

It's scary to think of all these little kids saying daddy I want one and lets face it ain't hard to get a quick lisence and all these poor reptiles will be the victims of poor and misunderstood care then ditched how many stray cats and dogs are around due to people unable to handle responsibility of them and that's an easy pet to look after there should be a mandoriary course for first time reptile buyers to insure proper care and to make people realise as we all know how much actually goes into caring for our beloved reptiles. I'm sure it will be good for our hobby also with access available to help people get into the game that do the right research and everything but the negatives far out way the positives


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## Ambush (Mar 22, 2013)

I wont pass judgement yet. 
All pet shops i seen now would not last if they were dirty or neglect their animals.
I do hope that the shops are as good or better than the pet shops and reptile shops i checked out in California. 
I myself will be keeping a close eye on things.


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## jeffa_8 (Mar 22, 2013)

woody101 said:


> Are they going to be all reptiles or restricted to small pythons like QLD



I would like to know as well. I dont think i seen anyone mention it.


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## junglepython2 (Mar 22, 2013)

Yay! Finally a win for impulse buying, lack of quarantine and animal neglect.


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## Rob (Mar 22, 2013)

jeffa_8 said:


> I would like to know as well. I dont think i seen anyone mention it.



The fax Gruni posted mentions "there are a lot of details to be confirmed yet". Allowed species lists, etc., would be part of these details I'd imagine.


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## Barrett (Mar 22, 2013)

I'm still on the fence about this one. There are some awesome reptile pet stores that know what they are doing (Amazing Amazon especially) but I fear for all the pet shops that want to get in on the game with practically no knowledge.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> It's scary to think of all these little kids saying daddy I want one and lets face it ain't hard to get a quick lisence and all these poor reptiles will be the victims of poor and misunderstood care then ditched how many stray cats and dogs are around due to people unable to handle responsibility of them and that's an easy pet to look after there should be a mandoriary course for first time reptile buyers to insure proper care and to make people realise as we all know how much actually goes into caring for our beloved reptiles. I'm sure it will be good for our hobby also with access available to help people get into the game that do the right research and everything but the negatives far out way the positives


yeah just like what happens in the rest of Australia.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

If you are wondering what will happen in NSW with pet stores being able to sell reptiles. You don't really have to make up theories. Just look at the other states like Victoria as for an idea of how it works and what happens. 
My experiences in WA and Victoria has been that pet stores are just llike keepers. There are some great ones and some that haven't got a clue how to keep and care for them. We only have to see some of the good and bad advice on threads to realise this.


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> yeah just like what happens in the rest of Australia.


It would be happening with the rest of Australia there's no doubt about it


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## jacorin (Mar 22, 2013)

Nilesh said:


> the breeders that sell to petstores should be partly responsible



thats like saying the caryard that sells you a car is "partly responsible" for you drink drinking or causing an accident...get real m8


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## Varanoidea (Mar 22, 2013)

jacorin said:


> thats like saying the caryard that sells you a car is "partly responsible" for you drink drinking or causing an accident...get real m8



agreed.


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## Cypher69 (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Hope it comes with a heat rock. Pythons can't survive in captivity without a heat rock




I was just gonna set the tank on top of my oil heater. 8)


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## Jlaw0786 (Mar 22, 2013)

In my opinion there are to many cons that out weigh the pros, sure having reptiles sold in pet shops will get more people interested and promote the hobby but it will also promote more neglect to these innocent creatures. For example I was at my mates house not to long ago and his younger brother had purchased a baby blue tongue by getting his mate who had a licence to buy it for him. he was keeping it in a small tub not much bigger than the bluey itself with a old sock for "warmth" under his bed in the dark. So I told him that lizards can't produce there own body heat and that he needs a source of heat or it will not survive i also told him a few other crucial details in order to keep him, so of coarse he agreed to get what he needed and that was that. About a month later I went over there again and sure enough the lizard had died because he simply couldn't be bothered to get what was needed. The amount of times this sort of abuse and neglect will happen now will sky rocket. yeah, sure in most cases this wont happen and the reptile will get the love and care they need. But just because a pet shop owner may quickly educate the buyer on what is required to care for the reptile doesn't actually mean the reptile is going to be looked after!!!


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## -Peter (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> If you are wondering what will happen in NSW with pet stores being able to sell reptiles. You don't really have to make up theories. Just look at the other states like Victoria as for an idea of how it works and what happens.
> My experiences in WA and Victoria has been that pet stores are just llike keepers. There are some great ones and some that haven't got a clue how to keep and care for them. We only have to see some of the good and bad advice on threads to realise this.



Dont try and talk reason and rational and especially dont offer up existing systems as evidence . We need irrational reactionary response only thankyou.


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## Jungletrans (Mar 22, 2013)

It is very simple , vote with your wallet . Spend money in the good shops , avoid the bad ones . They will change or go out of business . There are good and bad shops , breeders and keepers .


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## yewherper (Mar 22, 2013)

You know what I wanna I know. One rule in nsw is that if we buy an animal. We have to keep it for a minimum of 6 months before you can sell that animal. How are pet I shops gonna deal with that? Or is that gonna go out the door with these new rules...

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


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## jacorin (Mar 22, 2013)

all this talk of impulse reptile buying and animals dieing from neglect is ok,lets not forget though that it happens across ALL animal species,and will continue to happen,no good crying about it.if everyone got up in arms about it,no one would own a dog or cat or bird or horse or fish


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## mcbuggsy (Mar 22, 2013)

Might be the death of Expos......I guess we will have to wait and see.....


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> It would be happening with the rest of Australia there's no doubt about it


Sometimes. And sometimes not. 
It's like fish... Some people get right into it others see it, want it and get bored. 
I've seen plenty of people buy reptiles from breeders on impulse and get bored too. There's always people selling snakes on gumtree like this.


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## Bart70 (Mar 22, 2013)

I did hear someplace when this was being debated some months ago that the average Pet Shop would have difficulty in just buying in herps and selling them under what was being proposed.

The way I understood it, they had to be licensed (not sure if the same type as us as keepers, or if it is a new license for sellers), had to have herp experience, and had to have demonstrated skills and knowledge in herps. The way it was described to me was that it was to allow the guys who are selling today to be able to do it legally (ie - those larger breeders that are as god as 'commercial') whilst making it difficult for the average pet shop to just by in reptiles to sell. Aparently the aim was to allow 'specialist' herp pet shops to be established (probably similar to some of those mentioned in other States).

Not sure how well it will work or even if this is still the intent. It was how it was described to me. I guess we won't know until the fine details are laid out and released.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 22, 2013)

mcbuggsy said:


> Might be the death of Expos......I guess we will have to wait and see.....



Might have an opposite effect if Vic expo is anything to go by... the shops have stalls in the expos yearly which is where the sponsorship money comes from for the expos.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

-Peter said:


> Dont try and talk reason and rational and especially dont offer up existing systems as evidence . We need irrational reactionary response only thankyou.


Hahaha. Yeah more scaremongering is needed for sure! 
I bet if they let pet stores sell then they will start to pass off corns as bredli!!!


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## Red-Ink (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Hahaha. Yeah more scaremongering is needed for sure!
> I bet if they let pet stores sell then they will start to pass off corns as bredli!!!



Corns as bredlis :shock: I always thought they were an _Antaresia_ morph.


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## hugsta (Mar 22, 2013)

bigjoediver said:


> Luckily here in Adelaide we have a number of good reptile specific stores that are owned and run by enthusiasts who are experienced and knowledgable. Hopefully you can get the same situation over there.



Having worked in the pet industry, specifically with reptile porducts, I can tell you there are a lot of great shops that are owned by reptile keepers. It's amazing how many people are quick to crucify them before it even comes in. The approval is here, but there is still a lot more to be done yet and may be a little while before you actually see a reptile in a shop. There are still caging requirements and species lists to be released yet, let alone any shop policies/procedures. There is also an annual licensing fee that shops must pay as well.
Keep in mind there is always the 'bad' version in any industry and it is always easy to criticise a bad one. I have heard all the stories and seen quite a few myself, but lets give credit to those that do the right thing, as this is the majority, not the minority.

Daz


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## jacorin (Mar 22, 2013)

well if you think it will kill off expos,just take a look at bird sales(just from my background breeding birds) just because shops sell birds hasnt diminished bird sales one bit,i'd say they are better and bigger.... not saying all bird breeders do the right thing by their birds either,they are cheaper than buying from a shop.

EG. budgies...shop($25(baby) to $35/40........ bird sale( $5 to 20) sometimes more........ shops are so much more expensive to buy from,they they can and do,market themselves out of sales. same will happen with reps,because shops have to make so much profit on things to make it worth their time


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## borntobnude (Mar 22, 2013)

I think it could go either way here , as stated earlier in the thread there are some pet store owners that are breeders of quality animals and i am sure they won't sell their rubbish through the shops or have inadequate housing for them . 
i do think that maybe the shops in large centers would not be the best place for the animals to be , just a thought .


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## solar 17 (Mar 22, 2013)

mcbuggsy said:


> Might be the death of Expos......I guess we will have to wait and see.....



What about Victorian Expos ???????


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## Grogshla (Mar 22, 2013)

I don't think it would be the end of expos at all.


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## hugsta (Mar 22, 2013)

jacorin said:


> well if you think it will kill off expos,just take a look at bird sales(just from my background breeding birds) just because shops sell birds hasnt diminished bird sales one bit,i'd say they are better and bigger.... not saying all bird breeders do the right thing by their birds either,they are cheaper than buying from a shop.
> 
> EG. budgies...shop($25(baby) to $35/40........ bird sale( $5 to 20) sometimes more........ shops are so much more expensive to buy from,they they can and do,market themselves out of sales. same will happen with reps,because shops have to make so much profit on things to make it worth their time



You also have to realise that shops are purchasing from the breeders and not necessarily at a huge discount, so for them to cover their expenses in maintaining and keeping the animal, they naturally have to have a larger price tag. 

Also, their target market is not a person that has several reptiles, it is the first time keeper that has little to no experience. So they buy their first snake, hopefully get the right advice, have the ability to purchase all the products to maintain the animal in captive conditions and walk away happy. If there interest grows, they may find themselves at places like this and/or reptile shows and purchase thier 2nd animal there, hopefully with a bit more experience under their belt.

Daz


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## Justdragons (Mar 22, 2013)

Lol its a good thing folks.. you all think that people who have the smarts to put small business together in the pet industry wouldnt be smart enough to look after a snake and play by the rules?? This gives exposure to the industry to help it grow, gives you breeders a chance to open a store front and do the right things and sell some animals.. 

Ive seen some disgusting backyard breeders.. I would think that shops would have to run a much tighter ship than backyard breeders?


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## JoshMack96 (Mar 22, 2013)

i hope its true it will be awesome


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## jacorin (Mar 22, 2013)

maybe true hugsta,but when i've sold my birds to a petshop they paid $6 for a baby budgie :O then want you to pay $25-30 for it...... not much of a mark up there i can see


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Sometimes. And sometimes not.
> It's like fish... Some people get right into it others see it, want it and get bored.
> I've seen plenty of people buy reptiles from breeders on impulse and get bored too. There's always people selling snakes on gumtree like this.


 yeh defently but to get into this hobby ya gotta research or no somebody that's into it so there's a bit of commitment to the cause having them reataly available at pet shops people don't have to put as much effort into getting there hands on them as what we have to at the moment


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## Zipidee (Mar 22, 2013)

I used to work in the pet industry - a long time ago - and other comments are spot on: there are dodgy operators and great ones. Bit it's the same with breeders - not members of this Forum of course! In any case, when I was in the industry I also bred birds. And I wouldn't buy my animals from the pet store because I want to talk to the breeder about genetics and husbandry issues etc etc. Pet store staff won't be able to do that with every animal in the collection - it's too hard. So if you want a green budgie for the kids - pet store. Ditto for a basic herp. But if you want to breed or more specific information about the animal you are buying - and let's face it: a lot of reptiles are expensive and a big investment - you will still need to go to a breeder.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 22, 2013)

Justdragons said:


> Lol its a good thing folks.. you all think that people who have the smarts to put small business together in the pet industry wouldnt be smart enough to look after a snake and play by the rules?? This gives exposure to the industry to help it grow, gives you breeders a chance to open a store front and do the right things and sell some animals..
> 
> Ive seen some disgusting backyard breeders.. I would think that shops would have to run a much tighter ship than backyard breeders?



I doubt the question of petshop owners knowing how is the problem, it's the fact that they _wont _to save money. One can have knowledge without responsibility.


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## Crazycow232 (Mar 22, 2013)

I guess i will be making few trips to my local pet shop in the near future


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> yeh defently but to get into this hobby ya gotta research or no somebody that's into it so there's a bit of commitment to the cause having them reataly available at pet shops people don't have to put as much effort into getting there hands on them as what we have to at the moment


I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I've met heaps of people on the wa reptile forum who got their first snakes from pet stores. And they are doing fine.....many with the simple advice given at the store.


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I've met heaps of people on the wa reptile forum who got their first snakes from pet stores. And they are doing fine.....many with the simple advice given at the store.


Yeh no doubt about it but there's just as many people that don't do any of the proper research or get the right advice what I'm saying is that with the current laws in NSW you have to really commit to getting a reptile its something you think about and research and apply for lisences ect being in pet shops anyone who is in there can just go I like the look of that I'm getting one there's no real thought or effort into it therefore in my opinion not a lot of thought or commitment goes into it


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> Yeh no doubt about it but there's just as many people that don't do any of the proper research or get the right advice what I'm saying is that with the current laws in NSW you have to really commit to getting a reptile its something you think about and research and apply for lisences ect being in pet shops anyone who is in there can just go I like the look of that I'm getting one there's no real thought or effort into it therefore in my opinion not a lot of thought or commitment goes into it


Bet you $1000 I can find at least two threads on APS where a NSW keeper got a snake and had no idea how to look after it.
I see what you are saying, but I dont think it makes much difference. Just like I dont think it makes much difference if you get a license or not.


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## jacorin (Mar 22, 2013)

i didnt dutchy so ur wrong with me..... a friend of mine had snakes,and i thought i'd like one too,so i paid for a licence and bought a stimmie off wokka...simple straight forward...and there's a lot more like me out there


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Bet you $1000 I can find at least two threads on APS where a NSW keeper got a snake and had no idea how to look after it.
> I see what you are saying, but I dont think it makes much difference. Just like I dont think it makes much difference if you get a license or not.


I bet you could to. But we live in a society where every one wants everything now now now and its at our finger tips as it stands at the moment with reptiles if you are interested in it you have to research, find a breeder ect having some 16 year old kid who's worked at the pet shop a week saying ' yeh you just do this this and this and it will be fine' is not enough that's obviously not the case with every pet shop but you see my point just because its there and easy available doesn't mean its a simple pet as you and I both know but that's how people will see it


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## Jlaw0786 (Mar 22, 2013)

Without naming names, I know at least 3 reptile breeders in my area that are fairly well known all of which attended the previous expos at castle hill and Penrith, anyway I know for a fact that all these "breeders" pay money to people they know to collect reptiles from the wild and 2 of these guys do it themselves aswell, they then sell these reptiles to people that don't have a licence or they put them on licence and sell them "legit" trust me its easy to do there's many loopholes and I've seen it done many times.. What I am saying is that if there is reputable breeders out there that feel the need to earn some extra ca$h by getting people to take from the wild what's going to stop a lot of these pet shop owners from doing the same thing, after all you can't collect puppies and kittens from the wild to earn some extra ca$h can you!!


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Bet you $1000 I can find at least two threads on APS where a NSW keeper got a snake and had no idea how to look after it.
> I see what you are saying, but I dont think it makes much difference. Just like I dont think it makes much difference if you get a license or not.


I bet you could to. But we live in a society where every one wants everything now now now and its at our finger tips as it stands at the moment with reptiles if you are interested in it you have to research, find a breeder ect having some 16 year old kid who's worked at the pet shop a week saying ' yeh you just do this this and this and it will be fine' is not enough that's obviously not the case with every pet shop but you see my point just because its there and easy available doesn't mean its a simple pet as you and I both know but that's how people will see it. It's like when finding nemo came out and everyone wanted clown fish because they were new and cool I put money on 70% of people no longer own those fish because once they realise how hard tropical fish are to look after its all so hard


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## Wally (Mar 22, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> I bet you could to. But we live in a society where every one wants everything now now now and its at our finger tips as it stands at the moment with reptiles if you are interested in it you have to research, find a breeder ect having some 16 year old kid who's worked at the pet shop a week saying ' yeh you just do this this and this and it will be fine' is not enough that's obviously not the case with every pet shop but you see my point just because its there and easy available doesn't mean its a simple pet as you and I both know but that's how people will see it. It's like when finding nemo came out and everyone wanted clown fish because they were new and cool I put money on 70% of people no longer own those fish because once they realise how hard tropical fish are to look after its all so hard



You can get a reptile licence online almost instantaneously in NSW.


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

Excatly


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## dr_juggalo (Mar 22, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> I bet you could to. But we live in a society where every one wants everything now now now and its at our finger tips as it stands at the moment with reptiles if you are interested in it you have to research, find a breeder ect having some 16 year old kid who's worked at the pet shop a week saying ' yeh you just do this this and this and it will be fine' is not enough that's obviously not the case with every pet shop but you see my point just because its there and easy available doesn't mean its a simple pet as you and I both know but that's how people will see it. It's like when finding nemo came out and everyone wanted clown fish because they were new and cool I put money on 70% of people no longer own those fish because once they realise how hard tropical fish are to look after its all so hard


My partner did exactly that she had no idea but we went to the expo last weekend in newcastle got a license in 5 minutes then got a snake. Main reason I joined this forum is because I want to know how to take care of it properly


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## Dutchy88 (Mar 22, 2013)

dr_juggalo said:


> My partner did exactly that she had no idea but we went to the expo last weekend in newcastle got a license in 5 minutes then got a snake. Main reason I joined this forum is because I want to know how to take care of it properly


thats good I'm not picking on people that are keen o getting in on it but pet shop expose the impulse buy I mean you got a license in 5 min and bought a snake you might have been thinking about it for awhile I can't judge ya on that but its impulse buys that will damage the hobby


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 22, 2013)

Rob72 said:


> There are at least 3 stores I can think of which would fit that category - One based at Narellan, one at Liverpool and another at Kellyville. I am sure there would be others as well.


at least these stores are owned by reptile keeper/breeders,but I'm not sure about others


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## Varanoidea (Mar 22, 2013)

Unfortunately we can't do anything about it no matter how many issues are brought up...


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## FAY (Mar 22, 2013)

The government better build another RSPCA facility to house unwanted reptiles


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## Ramsayi (Mar 22, 2013)

yewherper said:


> You know what I wanna I know. One rule in nsw is that if we buy an animal. We have to keep it for a minimum of 6 months before you can sell that animal. How are pet I shops gonna deal with that? Or is that gonna go out the door with these new rules...
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2



They will operate under a different set of rules and from what I understand a different gubbermint department (DPI) will oversee them.


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## hugsta (Mar 23, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> thats good I'm not picking on people that are keen o getting in on it but pet shop expose the impulse buy I mean you got a license in 5 min and bought a snake you might have been thinking about it for awhile I can't judge ya on that but its impulse buys that will damage the hobby



So how do you know dr_juggalo didn't impulse buy..?? Not saying he did by any means, but what your saying contradicts yourself. Because Jo Bloggs goes to a Bills Pet Shop, gets his licence and buys a reptile, he's impulse buying, but our mate here went to the reptile show and did exactly the same thing, but that's ok..?? I would rather see it made much harder for everyone to buy a cat as the destruction they cause on our native wildlife, they would kill more animals in a year then any possible reptile owner.

The profit margins made by pet shops will vary, it may seem like a large profit margin from a budgie worth $6 up to $25+, but how much time and effort is involved in selling it, it probably costs them more money to keep the thing, but they make the $$ on the accessories when they sell a cage, feed etc etc. It's not like they would buy a snake for $600 and sell it for $2500. The margin is all relevant to cost. I am sure some pet shops will be dearer, but it is probably matched with service in most circumstances.

Fay, there enough reptiles being handed in as it is, probably not going to make that much difference IMO. Being in pet shops also gives people a place to take it back to if they decide they no longer want it and I am sure there will plenty of breeders willing to put their hand up for free animals.

Daz


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## saintanger (Mar 23, 2013)

hmmm,

good in one way bad in another. the reptiles r the ones that will suffer. locale breeders should have been allowed to advertise at pet shops and even have their own stock on display and buyers get their numbers off shop keepers. i will dreed the day i walk in and see a dead reptile in a tank, or lizards with heat rocks and no UV. but there are some great reptile specialist shops like the one at liverpool and narellan who should be able to sell. 

i recko they should only allow reptile shops to sell reptiles not petshops, who have no interest or passion or experienced staff. 

though over the past few years i have taken in 19 unwanted reptiles, ranging from bearded dragons, blue tonges, geckos, turtles and many pythons. with pet shops selling to impulse buys there will be alot more free to good home reptiles and reptiles dumped.

but at least wen stuck up people realise reptiles are legal to own as they walk past a pet shop, drivers by will stop calling the cops saying there is a lady handling a massive snake on her front lawn, or some guy is feeding a snake on his front lawn.


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## geckoman1985 (Mar 23, 2013)

Wow interesting I would like to see my local pet shop sell them I think it would be good for the hobby. I use to help out at store ing Gladstone for 5years befor move ing down to nsw. And thought the people up there on care and stuff I have dearly missed it. I was good friends with the people and thay helped me out as well. Those of you that think it a bad ideas need to think about the positives that come from this not only do breeders have a bigger market but all so can have a say on what goes on in the shops. If ever my local pet shop is intrested in selling them I will be offering my knowledge and help as I simply love doing it wether there be cash paid or voulintering. As far as the expos go up in Gladstone the local pet shop was the main sponser for the event.


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## smileysnake (Mar 23, 2013)

i can think of 1 great reptile supply shop in western sydney that have been waiting for this for a while family owned and run and will appreciate this opportunity and will treat it with the respect and care that it deserves i think these people are 1 of the most deserving of this in the whole of western sydney and cant wait to see how their business picks up from this....good luck guys i think most would know who im talking about....


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## dr_juggalo (Mar 23, 2013)

Lets just hope that it is a much more controlled license, that requires spot checks a education, not just go online get a license and done


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## -Peter (Mar 23, 2013)

FAY said:


> The government better build another RSPCA facility to house unwanted reptiles



Thats why I have lacies...


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## Woma_Wild (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm in NSW but not sure I like the idea as I'm against pets been sold in pet stores. Unless it's a reptile ONLY shop which probably wont be the case. 
You have no idea where the animal comes, from, who the breeder is, any diseases, long term ailments, etc. 
It may also encourage back yard breeders to over breed these poor animals as we've seen with cats and dogs. 
The decision has been made so nothing can be done but once again, some animals will suffer because of this.
And who will go around collecting all the reptiles let loose by idiots that no longer want their animals......


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## zulu (Mar 23, 2013)

Woma Wild > And who will go around collecting all the reptiles let loose by idiots that no longer want their animals...... 

Peter > hes here hes there hes everywhere !


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## Ambush (Mar 23, 2013)

WOW everyone is calling People in NSW idiots


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 23, 2013)

Its been interesting reading over the posts in this thread. There is obviously a lot of passion and feeling about this in the community. At the end of the day almost all the above scenarios can and do happen in private circumstances, but because pet stores do there business in the public forum, what they do is easily seen and easily criticised. Whenever something is bought and sold, inevitably institutions crop up to make commercial gain from it. Whenever money is involved, you will often see compromise between what is best for the animals, and what is commercially viable.

Having said that, the care required to maintain many reptiles is really very simple. The biggest thing I have found with any animal shop is it is very difficult to manage stress, and this really is the primary cause for many sick animals in shops. Reptiles are particularly susceptible to stress, and its really very difficult to keep stress levels down and also keep the animals on display so that potential customers can see them. Running a commercial operation and a adequate quarantine practice is virtually impossible and this can make the problem a lot worse. 

The unfortunate reality of maintaining any sort of pet shop is there will always be a level of mortality and this is impossible to avoid. Keeping display stock to a minimum and having breeder contacts who can bring animals in for arranged transfers is one way this can be minimised, however often customers are very picky about colourations etc and it can really test the patience of the breeders. Other ways I have found stress can be minimised is rotating animals from display to a quiet non-display areas. Furthermore, training of staff is paramount and organisation of training days with suitably qualified people for staff without experience, or employment of people with experience goes a long way to helping manage the animals while they are kept at the stores. 

There will always be unscrupulous people out to make a dollar. Regardless of regulation or otherwise, this will always happen. The best way I found to ensure a steady stream of customers through the door is by word of mouth. As a positive way to ensure shops that do the right thing and offer healthy animals and good advice is to recommend stores that do this. Support the shops who do the right thing. Shops learn that to survive they need to up there game. The same goes for breeders, support the stores who keep your animals healthy and listen to your advice and recommendations.

Kind Regards

Wing_Nut


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## solar 17 (Mar 23, 2013)

The government better build another RSPCA facility to house unwanted reptiles.....this is post #78 in this thread ....well if thats the case where are the RSPCA extra facilities required in QLD,NT,SA and VIC. as they all have Reptiles in petshops solar 17


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## andyoz (Mar 23, 2013)

.


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## geckodan (Mar 23, 2013)

Here's the fine print - species lists and costs - quite prohibitive in many respects. 

Reptile_Issue


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## Grogshla (Mar 23, 2013)

so in a month or so we will see animals in shops?


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 23, 2013)

hugsta said:


> So how do you know dr_juggalo didn't impulse buy..?? Not saying he did by any means, but what your saying contradicts yourself. Because Jo Bloggs goes to a Bills Pet Shop, gets his licence and buys a reptile, he's impulse buying, but our mate here went to the reptile show and did exactly the same thing, but that's ok..?? I would rather see it made much harder for everyone to buy a cat as the destruction they cause on our native wildlife, they would kill more animals in a year then any possible reptile owner.
> 
> The profit margins made by pet shops will vary, it may seem like a large profit margin from a budgie worth $6 up to $25+, but how much time and effort is involved in selling it, it probably costs them more money to keep the thing, but they make the $$ on the accessories when they sell a cage, feed etc etc. It's not like they would buy a snake for $600 and sell it for $2500. The margin is all relevant to cost. I am sure some pet shops will be dearer, but it is probably matched with service in most circumstances.
> 
> ...



the only thing I see wrong with your argument is that impulse buy reps wont be "handed in",they will be dumped or just ignored and left to starve


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## -Peter (Mar 23, 2013)

So we'll be seeing a lot of stimmis sold as macs or childreni then.

Oh, and it now appears that it is totally acceptable to sell your reptiles in a McDonald's carpark. Thanks for that clarification Robyn.


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## happynagini (Mar 23, 2013)

I would never buy a dog or cat from a pet shop, i think it supports a few wrong things. I would also never buy a snake from a pet shop.. would prefer to go to a breeder so i can see parents and see what environment the reptile is coming from


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 23, 2013)

-Peter said:


> So we'll be seeing a lot of stimmis sold as macs or childreni then.
> 
> Oh, and it now appears that it is totally acceptable to sell your reptiles in a McDonald's carpark. Thanks for that clarification Robyn.



What is wrong with meeting people at McDonalds?
They are always easy for the buyers to find, and I get to eat a Sundae while I am waiting 
I suppose I should let every random person come to my home? oh wait then I will be blacklisted for not following quarantine protocols!


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## Varanoidea (Mar 23, 2013)

Those are some pretty strict restrictions. I am pleased. Pet shops have to provide evidence of their knowledge in keeping reptiles. There will still obviously be problems, of course.


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## bigjoediver (Mar 23, 2013)

The cost of a license to sell reptiles commercially in SA is quite expensive as is the power bill at the end of the month that's why not a lot of general pet shops here sell herps. My local reptile shop (Reptile City ) is well patronized by the local herp community and seems to do well, on the other hand a now out of business pet shop in the local mega mall who tried selling reptiles didn't go too well. There will be teething problems and some animals who unfortunately suffer but market forces will prevail and only the good shops will survive.


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## saintanger (Mar 23, 2013)

at least they have care sheets and it is a restricted list. i'm shocked they did not include stimmi'e, eastern beardies and eastern water dragons.


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## Venomous_RBB (Mar 23, 2013)

I personally dont think any animal should be sold in pet shops. If reptiles are being sold in pet shops, I dont think I would mind as long as husbandry is kept adequate and the animal get proper care from staff that know what they are doing.
I think it is good for the industry in terms of getting more people educated about reptiles but personally I think if you are going to sell them, they should come with a good care sheet.


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## borntobnude (Mar 23, 2013)

Is there anyone else thinking that "Herpariums" like Aquariums will pop up and have experienced , knowledgeable staff on hand to help ??

No prob wont wappen in a hurry but one day???


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## zulu (Mar 23, 2013)

saintanger said:


> at least they have care sheets and it is a restricted list. i'm shocked they did not include stimmi'e, eastern beardies and eastern water dragons.



stimsons and eastern beardies,bluetongues etc will become the next closest thing ,just not policeable.


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## bk201 (Mar 23, 2013)

> After many years of lobbying, the PIAA were very pleased to witness the authorisation of commercial trade of reptiles through pet shops in NSW. Minister Parker agreed that it was not acceptable that you could purchase a reptile in a McDonalds car park but you couldn’t buy one in a pet shop where you could obtain the enclosures, environment and food and receive the information required to look after the animal.


LOL stupidest statement of the year
My local petshops suggest heat rocks without thermos they are safe
they sell people with waterdragons 2ft exo-terras and heat rocks...


I purchased a gecko in mcdonalds carpark....this steve guy wouldnt let me go till he told me how to look after it i love how they suggest us private keepers/dealers are shady...

They assume petshops take animal welfare over profit....just look at fighter fish....look at the enclosures they sell tiny expensive ones they make huge profits from need to upgrade 10x during an animals life...

I convinced my parents to get me a snake over 10 years ago until the reptile guy at kellyville pets told them to house a adult snake they would need to buy this enclosure with fake rocks, logs etc and the enclosure alone would be $1500....i got my first snake 4 years ago when i turnt 18 and got it myself...


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## -Peter (Mar 23, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> What is wrong with meeting people at McDonalds?
> They are always easy for the buyers to find, and I get to eat a Sundae while I am waiting
> I suppose I should let every random person come to my home? oh wait then I will be blacklisted for not following quarantine protocols!



Appears it was the clincher for signing off on it.


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## Jackrabbit (Mar 23, 2013)

saintanger said:


> at least they have care sheets and it is a restricted list. i'm shocked they did not include stimmi'e, eastern beardies and eastern water dragons.



why every other Morelia except a Diamond.

I know interstate stores have done this for a while with no problems but I don't understand why a pet store has all the regulation and cost but the 'amateur' breeder/seller can do so without the cost or regulation and not declare the revenue for tax?

how many stores actually sell reptiles interstate? Will we see Snake Ranch now open a store?


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## jacorin (Mar 23, 2013)

from my understanding..which is limited..... "amateur" breeder/seller is classed as a hobbyist and a hobby is tax free till it hit a certain $ amount($50,000 i think)..... that covers ALL hobbies


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## zulu (Mar 23, 2013)

I think its a 5000 limit jacorin,might be 50,000 in the bahamas LOL


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## saintanger (Mar 23, 2013)

Jackrabbit said:


> why every other Morelia except a Diamond.



seems like an odd list.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 23, 2013)

I think its great they didnt put Diamonds on it, they would be poached like no tomorrow.


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## saintanger (Mar 24, 2013)

i was thinking that if they put all the reptiles that can be found in the wild locally whats to stop someone that owns a pair from poaching and saying they breed them just to make a quick buck and sell to a pet shop, maybe thats why they left diamonds, eastern beardies and eastern water dragons off the list.


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## bk201 (Mar 24, 2013)

align="center" style="width: 40%"
|- 
| style="width: 242px" | Nephrurus levis levis 
Pogona henrylawsoni 
Pogona vitticeps 
Tiliqua scincoides 
Underwoodisaurus milii
| 
|-


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## FAY (Mar 24, 2013)

Cannot understand why no stimmies.


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## FAY (Mar 24, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> I think its great they didnt put Diamonds on it, they would be poached like no tomorrow.



hahaha I can think of someone straight off the top of my head. But Oh no, everyone else poaches NOT him..LOL
'It's all about the money, not the hobby'...lol


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 24, 2013)

Unfortunately with how slow Blue tongues take to breed I can see them now being a huge target for poachers


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## zulu (Mar 24, 2013)

FAY said:


> Cannot understand why no stimmies.



Windorahs mNSW and SA stimsons will become yellow childrens ,yellow ghosts, spotted ghosts ,wheatbelts will become red spotted childrens, easy fixed.


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## cma_369 (Mar 24, 2013)

I think its a good thing they have left local species off the the list


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 24, 2013)

Jungletrans said:


> It is very simple , vote with your wallet . Spend money in the good shops , avoid the bad ones . They will change or go out of business . There are good and bad shops , breeders and keepers .


it's easy to say vote with your wallet but newbies don't have the networks to inform them of good /bad shops so these people will be the ones to wear the brunt of bad shops so bad shops will continue whereas people in our position who have some experience or friends with advice wont get caught.


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## junglepython2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Will they be tolerating mixed blood jags, such as jungle jags?


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## reptilezac (Mar 24, 2013)

when will they be in nsw pet shops I would like to see how over priced they will be


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## mummabear (Mar 25, 2013)

cma_369 said:


> I think its a good thing they have left local species off the the list


I thought milii were local?


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## bk201 (Mar 25, 2013)

Forgetting about eastern snake necked turtles? IMO its open season when it rains...they should have been left off the list TBH


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## The_Geeza (Mar 25, 2013)

FAY said:


> Cannot understand why no stimmies.


Ridiculous I recon


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## KingSirloin (Mar 25, 2013)

I'll sell my female water python to a local shop. She should keep everyone away from the shop for a long time. Then they'll be begging me to buy her back (at half price of course). 

Profit made, reptiles safe!


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## borntobnude (Mar 25, 2013)

So ,this morning its all over the radio news , " and it will help stop the blackmarket trade " . What do they mean by this ?? and where do they think the shops are going to get their herps from ??? .

OH , the " blackmarket " , or are there more comercial breeders than i think out there . 
Or are they only able to buy from breeders with an ABN ??
With such a short list available there is still going to be a lot of Car Park activity .:shock:


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## Woma_Wild (Mar 25, 2013)

borntobnude said:


> So ,this morning its all over the radio news , " *and it will help stop the blackmarket trade " . What do they mean by this ?? and where do they think the shops are going to get their herps from ??? .
> *
> OH , the " blackmarket " , or are there more comercial breeders than i think out there .
> Or are they only able to buy from breeders with an ABN ??
> With such a short list available there is still going to be a lot of Car Park activity .:shock:



that was partly my point. 
someone asked why no RSPCA set ups in other states - IMO, it's easier to dump a reptile than a microchipped cat or dog. 
that's another questions - are the councils going to cash in on this and expect owners to pay for annual registration? In NSW anything is possible.


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## thomasssss (Mar 25, 2013)

reading some of the replies in this thread makes me want to give myself a massive :facepalm: , people the sky isnt falling its ok relax , drop the paranoia , do some of you guys wear foil hats as well ? 

sure there will be some idiots that get a snake without knowing what there doing but thats going to happen anyway , on a plus side there may be a less of demand for exotics although i think im kidding myself there


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## Red-Ink (Mar 25, 2013)

NSW is now selling reps in pet stores... it's the end of the industry and our hobby, oh the humanity.... won't somebody please think of the children. It has caused such demise in the rest of Australia that sells reptiles in petshops.... no wait, what was my point exactly?


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## cma_369 (Mar 25, 2013)

mummabear said:


> I thought milii were local?


I don't even know what they are lol :?
Was just referring to eastern bearded dragons and water dragons being left off the list.
but suprised they have done that, yet allowed snake neck turtles to be sold?
I suppose, they needed atleast one turtle species availible for the "oooooh turtle" factor.........
Heard on the radio today that this is a move, to squash the black market.:shock:


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## hugsta (Mar 25, 2013)

Some are quick to blame the pet shop for being 'dodgy', not looking after their animals, doing the wrong thing by customers by selling them stuff they don't need etc etc etc. But what about the breeders, don't they owe some level of ownership/responsability for the animals as well...?? I know I wouldn't sell to a shop like that, I would be quite particular with any shops I may deal with and if this were their attitude I wouldn't sell them anything. So although it easy to blame a pet shop (for a crime they havnen't committed yet), they're getting their animals from us, as breeders. I know a few shops that are selective as to who they will buy from, I think it is also important that we are the same when it comes to selling...!!

Daz


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## borntobnude (Mar 25, 2013)

hugsta said:


> they're getting their animals from us, as breeders. I know a few shops that are selective as to who they will buy from, I think it is also important that we are the same when it comes to selling...!!
> 
> Daz



yes and thats what the radio was refering to as the blackmarket !!!!! the average everyday reptile breeder !!!! as if they were ALL criminals :shock:


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## hugsta (Mar 26, 2013)

borntobnude said:


> yes and thats what the radio was refering to as the blackmarket !!!!! the average everyday reptile breeder !!!! as if they were ALL criminals :shock:



Lol, yes we are all criminals....

I think they may be referring more to the fact there are so many unlicenced keepers out there and also the fact that there are so many exotics out here as well. I mean, having someone ask if you have any corn snakes for sale at a reptile show is kind of unusual, but doesn't seems as uncommon these days. So the fact that reptiles are available through pet shops would mean there is less chance of someone being guided into exotics and also all shops should ensure you have a licence before you can buy.

Daz


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 26, 2013)

As I understand it, only "commercial" breeders can sell to pet shops, and a "commercial" licence costs a couple of grand? Haven't read all the post in this thread, just in case this has already been mentioned.

Jamie


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## paultheo (Mar 26, 2013)

,in S.A. you have to have a specialised lic. to allow you to buy and sell reptiles without the six month waiting period, unless you breed them yourself. After working in a pet store that sold reptiles for a few years i have seen some pretty dodgy people walk through the door with wild caught blueys, sleepys, beardies, millis and even some Jans banded snakes for sale. you will never stop the desperate or uneducated trying to make cash off wild caught animals, and i even caught a bloke that i just turfed out trying to sell his freshly caught beardie to my customers out in the carpark, the guy wanted some smokes for the lizard... i told him if he lets it go id give him a pack, cost me $16 but i also educated him as to the amount the fine would cost him when he gets caught and that next time i would ring the authorities on him.


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

hugsta said:


> Also, their target market is not a person that has several reptiles, it is the first time keeper that has little to no experience. So they buy their first snake, hopefully get the right advice, have the ability to purchase all the products to maintain the animal in captive conditions and walk away happy. If there interest grows, they may find themselves at places like this and/or reptile shows and purchase thier 2nd animal there, hopefully with a bit more experience under their belt.
> 
> Daz



I was thinking that too. 
A person sees or buys a reptile at a shop then goes home and looks up info which usually leads to forums.
Looking over forums they find that its cheaper to buy from a private breeder and everyone knows reptiles are like Pringles, once you pop, you cant stop.

This will most likely bring more awareness to the fact you need a licence to keep reptiles and extend the amount of keepers and the hobby and create more buyers for those selling privately. 

The downside of this however is people seeing them in shops and thinking why buy one when I can get one from the bush down the road for free


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

Anyone have any solid info on the "commercial licence" to enable breeders to sell to petshops?


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## cathy1986 (Mar 26, 2013)

What snake family are they allowed to be selling I know in qld petshops only allowed to sell Ants. Is it the same for nsw or are they allowed to sell Morelia 

Sent from my GT-N8020 using Tapatalk HD


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## FAY (Mar 26, 2013)

Most of the carpet species Cathy they can sell....except Diamonds lol


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## cathy1986 (Mar 26, 2013)

Ohh ok kool I will stilk be going to breeders stuff paying 3x the price I saw a normal stimmie at pet shop nothing special and dull $495 hahahhaa
& they will include a kit plastic box HEAT ROCK repti clean hand sanitizer and sand and hide with bedding oh and a telescopic hook for an extra 50$ I laughed my head off when I saw this
from Cathy


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## zulu (Mar 26, 2013)

bk201 said:


> Forgetting about eastern snake necked turtles? IMO its open season when it rains...they should have been left off the list TBH



Turtles have been getting trapped for a long while ,they will get trapped more to feed the supply.
Its because there isnt any big commercial suppliers and as far as i can see on the DECCW website there wont be any ,just commercial reptile dealers with shops ,hobbyists that cant be commercial etc.


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## borntobnude (Mar 26, 2013)

OK so i may be old but i think i need someone to explain !! 
There is a list of comercially available species . Where does that leave all of the others ? Yes i understand that they are still legal so therefore still able to be traded in "Mcdonalds Carparks " ? . but isn't this what "they " are trying to eliminate ?? 

so after reding Way too much i am confused . They asked for help and advice from Herpers and it was given , They didnt like it , shut the door threw a tanti did it their own way and we now seem to have a lot of wishy washy pages to sift through 

Or is it just me ( and I have even printed the code so i can read it at my leisure )


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

no its not just you born lolol


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## borntobnude (Mar 26, 2013)

jacorin said:


> no its not just you born lolol




Lucky i was going to ask for a plain and simple edition , but if it's just me CARRY ON :lol:


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## jacorin (Mar 27, 2013)

:lol::lol::lol:


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## dr_juggalo (Mar 28, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> thats good I'm not picking on people that are keen o getting in on it but pet shop expose the impulse buy I mean you got a license in 5 min and bought a snake you might have been thinking about it for awhile I can't judge ya on that but its impulse buys that will damage the hobby


That was the point I was making, I have been researching and she bought it with the impulse


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## -Peter (Mar 28, 2013)

"Turtles have been getting trapped for a long while ,they will get trapped more to feed the supply.
Its because there isnt any big commercial suppliers and as far as i can see on the DECCW website there wont be any ,just commercial reptile dealers with shops ,hobbyists that cant be commercial etc."


thats because they are escaped pets, you can tell because they come out and swim around when you put them in your tank, well when I say tank I really mean black recycling bin.


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## zulu (Mar 29, 2013)

thats because they are escaped pets, you can tell because they come out and swim around when you put them in your tank, well when I say tank I really mean black recycling bin. 

Yeh pete ,the old turtle swimming around the plastic recycling bin trick,all is revealed home sweet home grasshopper!


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## wokka (Mar 30, 2013)

AusHerps said:


> when will they be in nsw pet shops I would like to see how over priced they will be


some buyers chose convenience over price.
Most orange buyers buy oranges at super market prices, whilst the orange growers dump oranges in the paddock effecively free.


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## mcloughlin2 (Mar 30, 2013)

I think the general threat to wild populations will be minimal. Your general person is not going to put in the effort and time it takes to catch a suitably sized animal. Not many people want a full grown turtle, they want the cute 50c piece turtle. In my time herping I've seen probably 50+ long neck turtles. Of them I've found a single turtle in a crystal clear dam that was 50c size, one about the size of your palm and all the others have been nearly or at full size. So not very good odds. This is from dozens of trips and thousands worth in fuel.


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## zulu (Mar 31, 2013)

Baby long necks ,macquaries and saw shells were in some petshops in the hundreds in the early 1970s i seen them and theres no way they were captive bred.


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## FAY (Mar 31, 2013)

From what I have heard zulu...way back then they were the Mary River turtles that was in petshops. Read it somewhere lol


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## zulu (Mar 31, 2013)

FAY said:


> From what I have heard zulu...way back then they were the Mary River turtles that was in petshops. Read it somewhere lol



Hi fay ive heard that also, they would go in runs, allot of juvenile longs necks ,the emydura that looked like maquaries and the ones that i thought was saw shells.
The saw shells could of been mary river or partly made up of that species ,allot of the types were not described at that time.
They sold adult long neck and short necked turtles also, the baby long necks were 3$ each and they had the line that they were penny turtles that didnt get bigger and thats probably because they died LOL
Actually faye, i remember the owner of the petshop in cabramatta telling me that the baby long necks were from siam , sign of things to come.


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## Amazing Amazon (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't think letting NSW sell Murray River Turtles is the greatest of ideas. How long before unwanted ones end up in the Macleay River? Look at the mess it has caused in QLD.


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## zulu (Apr 2, 2013)

Amazing Amazon said:


> I don't think letting NSW sell Murray River Turtles is the greatest of ideas. How long before unwanted ones end up in the Macleay River? Look at the mess it has caused in QLD.



Probably already mixed populations along with other eastern rivers,we dont even know where allot of populations came from ,the hawkesbury nepean and hacking river type are probably petshopiis.
There is red eared sliders in the macleay, a mate of mine caught one crossing the road near the river and released it back, so theres a bonus species !


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## Amazing Amazon (Apr 5, 2013)

Can all Emydura maquarii species be sold under the Murray Turtle banner as in Victoria? Seems strange they would list them as Emydura maquarii and not Emydura maquarii macquarii.


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## Bushman (Apr 5, 2013)

For this reason and to guard against a trend towards hybridization in the hobby, taxonomy should err on the side of splitting in my opinion. Two examples that immediately come to mind are the _Morelia spilota_ complex and _Emydura macquarii_ ssp. Wells and Wellington's widely accepted division of the former should persevere in the licence system imo. Likewise, John Cann's _Emydura macquarii_ split into distinct subspecies should continue to be recognised for the sake of maintaining regional integrity. 

The legalization of the sale of reptiles in pet shops is not necessarily a bad thing. It will not only help the reptile keeping hobby grow, but it will help undemonize (if that's a word) or normalize reptiles in Australian society. When the general public see herps in pet shops and in peoples homes, the increased exposure will desensitize the fear in most people. Wider acceptance of reptiles and amphibians as pets will also help dispel the old mentality of 'the only snake is a dead snake'. 

A lot of keepers seem to be upset about a code of practice and minimum cage sizes in particular. Larger enclosure sizes in many cases will benefit herps by giving them more room to move about. Keeping herps in very small plastic tubs and rack systems will increasingly become a thing of the past. I believe that exceptions need to be made for the provision of hatchlings and sick/injured/recovering animals, where it's both practical and beneficial to house them in small/compact and sterile enclosures like plastic tubs. As long as the wildlife authorities take these exceptions into consideration and not be overzealous in enforcing general rules, then I don't foresee a problem with the new developments. 
There seems to be much ado about nothing and the current hysteria is being fueled by exaggerated concerns about animal welfare and financial loss by those with something to lose. 

All this regulation by wildlife authorities may be over sooner than many think anyway, as with the incorporation and normalization of Australian wildlife as pets, NPWS will no longer be responsible for monitoring (read law enforcement) of them, as they increasingly are seen as pets rather than wildlife.
NPWS and other wildlife authorities can then make better use their resources to protect and preserve National Parks and wildlife habitat, as they were originally meant to do.


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