# WIRES reptile handling course



## Magpie (Dec 8, 2003)

Just wondering if anyone made it to the Armidale course on the weekend?
Unfortunately, I was double booked and know that Pinkie was unable to go due to car troubles, wondering if it was a good weekend?


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## Slateman (Dec 8, 2003)

I wish to be able to go one day. Shame that they do not have something closer. 
Do they have courses close to Sydney Craig?


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## grahamh (Dec 8, 2003)

I mentioned the other week that I was doing my course (NATF with a few WIRES members thrown in) The course is really good. It's a real buzz tailing and bagging RBBS's and Browns and my confidence level went up heaps. Just being able to see hoe these snakes react on a real hot day and just how fast they really can move is an eye opener and to then go on to bag them really is a confidence boost. Anyone who gets the chance should jump at it. I can see why Pinkie wanted to do it again.

G


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## saikrett (Dec 8, 2003)

do you have to be over 18?


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## Tommo (Dec 8, 2003)

by any chance was this advertised in the new reptiles australia mag? if it is im thinking about giving it a go when i go down south


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## Fuscus (Dec 8, 2003)

I wanna have a go. I wanna have a go.


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## Pinkie (Dec 8, 2003)

Yeah you have to be an active member of WIRES or a similar organisation. And over 18.


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## ackie (Dec 8, 2003)

damn, i hav to wait another 2 1/2 yrs but in the meantime i will do sum snake rescuing practice of my own.


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## adullthud (Dec 8, 2003)

I ran a course last weekend here in Sydney. Yes you do have to be a member of a wildlife organisation or other organisation who's insurance will cover you. The fireys, ambos and police cant do them at the moment because of workers comp.
Its all fun and games for the participants but spare a thought for the poor guy who has to house and feed all those wild vens then drive around the next day releasing. Oh yeah, and watch all those poor snakes being set upon by extremely nervous trainees. They practically jump in the bag afer a couple of goes


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## toxinologist (Dec 9, 2003)

Without wanting to put too much of a dampener on everyone's enthusiasm ... attempting to "teach" someone how to handle highly venomous snakes in the short period of time typically allowed by these courses, is not only fraught with immediate danger to the participants, but quite irresponsibly gives people with limited expertise a _*very false sense of confidence*_ that will eventually get someone killed.

There has already been one instance in north Queensland where a "graduate" of one of these ill-conceived "training courses" - in this case a supposedly mandatory course run by the Queensland Department of Environment - was bitten by a large coastal taipan that he attempted to catch with a 2-foot long pair of tongs.

As someone who has kept and worked with highly venomous snakes for more than 30 years I can assure those of you considering that these courses might qualify you to go out and handle species like the common brown snake (_Pseudonaja textilis_) that your best interests are not being served by the proponents of these courses. These are extremely dangerous snakes. The common brown snake is resoundingly responsible for the majority of snakebite deaths in this country, and many of the recent deaths have occurred very rapidly. They are not a species that inexperienced individuals should attempt to handle, even with hoopbags, grabsticks or snakehooks.

Having personally suffered the consequences of serious snakebites, and having seen people die from snakebite, I honestly would not wish the experience on my worst enemy.

... my $0.02 ...


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## Slateman (Dec 9, 2003)

I was thinking about the same think David. One course can not teach people how to deal with tox. Snakes. 
But on the other hand, how the people who are interested to learn should start? This courses will give them basic knowledge and what after? If the person who learn that from short course like this is gan hoe personality, we have problem. But majority of people are taking this courses like starting point and i am sure that they realise that they knowledge is limited.
*Do you experts in that field know what is next thing to do if you are really interested to get more experiance?*

Ps my spell button is not working. You have to read true slateman english now.


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## toxinologist (Dec 9, 2003)

My personal belief is that someone interested in learning to handle venomous snakes should first of all have robust experience with a wide range of non-venomous snakes, progressing to colubrids like the brown tree snake and then to moderately venomous elapids under supervision.

One of the real problems with herpetology is this country is that newbies simply don't have much access to the really experienced people, and many new herpers go out buy a snake, and then have to struggle along by themselves learning basic skills and repeating the mistakes that others could have helped them avoid. Solving that problem is not easy however - we exist in a climate of mutual suspicion, petty jealousy and competition that stymies these interactions. I would love to offer an instant solution, but there really isn't one.

The 1-2 day courses currently on offer suffer from the same sort of problem ... you go along pay your money, learn a few "tricks" and then away you go ... out on your own again, left to learn from hard mistakes.

I believe there is a real need for a formally instituted longer course - perhaps through a TAFE college - over a period of 6 to 12 months in which students are taken through structured classes covering all aspects of reptile husbandry, basic veterinarin requirments, animal behaviour, reproductive biology, housing, licensing, and handling. Such a course would be well attended, and would produce far better keepers. There simply are too many people out on their own at the moment without even the most rudimentary knowledge ... I actually get 2 or 3 emails a month asking _"my snake has blue eyes and won't eat - what's wrong with it"_ and this really shows that people are getting into the hobby without having done even the most basic research first.

The demand for training is definately there!

I would suggest that some of the experienced keepers in one of the capital cities should perhaps consider developing a course of this nature.

Cheers


David


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## Slateman (Dec 9, 2003)

That would be great David. But i am sure that we will not find anybody to get involved in this activity. Lot of problems with insurance, permits and red tape garb. 
An if somebody would be willing to go throu all this, Some other person in herp community who think that he is smarter, will attack and stab from back.
People like me who like to moove on, have to get wires course and battle on their own. That is why i am glad for that wires course to be possible, and i can get at least some experiance.
If somebody in the Sydney can give me better and safe alternative, I would grab it happily.


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## Lunar_Psycho (Dec 9, 2003)

Sorry to get a little off topic, but in relation to Toxinologist`s statement of people getting into herps too soon without enough information, I have to agree. I myself only really started learning about herps late last year, and in February picked up an 8 mnth old carpet python, followed by two juvi Eastern Water Dragons in October. I thought I knew enough information beforehand, but theres just so many unreliable sources out there that seem to look right. I posted a topic asking if its right to feed calcium powder to juvi lizards (which I now know was an obvious yes), which to many people would sound like a given. When the actaul breeder tells you "no, its bad for them", and even a few books do, it makes becoming a good herper all the more difficult. I`d love for an experienced herper to give a course, but the costs and legal aspects seem to make it almost impossible. This forum seems to be one of the best places for reliable informetion, as so many of you have kept wide varieties of herps for a long time, and as such know how to care for them.
So if I or any other newbies post anything that makes you think "They really haven`t looked into this", just remember our hearts are in the right place and where just trying to learn from the best available "resources".
Sorry again for having gone off subject, but I didn`t think this deserved a new post.

Jay


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## sxereturn (Dec 9, 2003)

It needs to be a lot harder to get a permit. Have to sit a written test, demonstrate how you handle snakes/lizard etc...

All the licencing scheme is, is a revenue raiser...


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## Pinkie (Dec 9, 2003)

I don't agree with you David.
I have done 2 WIRES reptile handler's courses over the past 3-4 years and I will continue to go back and do them every year for the next 50 years. However, I am not 100% confident and wont ever be 100% confident when I go out on a snake or reptile rescue because I never know what I'm going to be dealing with. 
To me having the hands-on experience in a controlled situation with experienced handlers present is a lot better than trying it yourself at home. I would much rather be spotted by 3-4 experienced handlers than will not only look out for me but give me tips and guidance all the way. 
You can say a "graduate" from a Qld course or whatever got bitten, but then you yourself say you have been bitten. I also know and know of many experienced herpetologists and handlers who have been bitten. Being bitten is part of it when you deal with venomous snakes, it is to be expected. 
For you to call all reptile handling courses "ill conceived" and "irresponsible" I find a bit offensive as I'm sure would the experienced handlers who run the course. We are taught first aid, identification and veterinary aspects. We begin with lizards and go to pythons/colubrid and then elapids. The course is well run and has been running for years. Irresponsible would be not to run the course and have members from such organisations going out on snake rescues and having no experience whatsoever.
The people who run the course are extrememly experienced in the handling of venomous snakes, some have been doing it for 40 years or so, some are even well-known herpetologists. I have great respect these trainers who have taught me more about reptiles than my years at university studying the subject. 
I think they do a wonderful job and hope they continue to do so.


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## Robert (Dec 9, 2003)

I think it is a good idea.As you say pinkie you are being spotted by experienced herpers and get some good tips.
I would love to do something like that course as i would love to do rescue's.
Also i think i doesn't matter who you are and how good you are, 
you are always at risk of being bitten sometime.It is just in the nature of what we do.
and no matter who you are you are always learning something new.

One day i wish to own a northen death adder or for that matter any death adder,and until that day i will be learning as much as i can about them and doing what is possible(courses etc) to learn as much as i can crame in to my head.
Think it is a good idea to start on colubrids though.


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## Pinkie (Dec 9, 2003)

NB: This course is designed for the rescue/relocation of snakes... not for people who want elapids on their recreational licence. :roll:


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## adullthud (Dec 9, 2003)

David, you are under the misapprehention that these courses are venemous handling where in fact the emphasis is on as little handling as possible. the course I ran was for members of a wildlife rescue organisation and the emphasis was on ; because it is in Sydney; eastern brown and redbellies blacksnakes. 
Nobody graduates from these courses. There is no pass or fail.
Others in a similar position to yours are quick to denigrate thes ecourses but offer little help especially when there seems to be little or no knowledge of what is entailed. I think pinkie has covered most of the ground that I would have and the computer has crashed twice so my missive is written in a somewhat calmer state than before.
To use the incident of someone being bitten after a course is rather poor coming from someone of your calibre. If stats wrere the go I think that you and others in the herp game would have to hand in youir hooks and go home. Being bitten is a risk but not a death sentence. Forearming and the right knowledge and precautions are big part of the course. The mothods we use include leaving the snake where it is and is the method most commonly used. We do not use tongs and we do not pin. These methods are left to peopele of greater experience.
Sure its about building confidence but its about building the confidence of people who already volunteer their time to perform a public service. 
There will be another course in Feb and it is already booked out and it hasnt been advertised. 
Ooh I get so mad.
Its like being on teh front line and having Lord Cardigan canter up and tell you how to shoot straight.


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## toxinologist (Dec 9, 2003)

It is interesting to see so much indignation arise from a post that was intended as a cautionary tale, but other people are welcome to their opinions, just as I am welcome to mine.

But a couple of comments:

1. The Queensland Course is a mandatory course with "passes" and "fails". Getting a damage mitigation permit in Townsville depends on "passing" a course taught by individuals with no qualifications other than a government employee's badge and a sense of authority. The course teachs techniques that are patently dangerous, and I stand by my belief that courses such as this one are extremely irresponsible.

2. Comparing a person who handles thousands of snakes a year, and who has had 2 snakebites requiring antivenom in a 30+ year period, with some poor fool whose whole experience is limited to attendance at the above-mentioned course is no comparison at all.

3. Pinkie confirmed my concerns by stating


> I am not 100% confident and wont ever be 100% confident when I go out on a snake or reptile rescue because I never know what I'm going to be dealing with.


Whether you like it or not this is an abject admission that the courses you have done have failed to adequately equip you to deal with wild venomous snakes in high stress situations. You have done a course and think you can now go and take venomous snake on your own, but the fact is that your nervousness makes you a danger to yourself and to others because there is one simple rule: _*if you don't know what you are doing, don't do it!*_

4. Adullthud should think carefully about the comment that


> Others in a similar position to yours are quick to denigrate these courses


If other experienced herpetologists are expressing the same concerns then there just may be a good reason for that concern don't you think? New herpers are quick to ask more experienced people for advice and assistance, but some are also a little too quick to reject what they don't like to hear :roll:

5. Another comment by Adullthud also deserves mention:


> Being bitten is a risk but not a death sentence


This has to be one of the most foolish things I have heard anyone say in a long time, not because it isn't true (_and oh how nice it is that you can toddle off and be bitten in Australia, spend a night in a comfy hospital bed and then go straight back out and try to do it again..._ :lol: ) but because it displays utter contempt for the potential of these animals to cause both serious injury and death. Once again we have someone who expects that people like myself should give away advice left, right and centre ... and then wants to throw it contemptuously back in my face when I give an opinion they don't want to hear.

6. Once again the common brown snake (_Pseudonaja textilis_) *is an extraordinarily dangerous and highly venomous snake that has caused human deaths in a matter of minutes*. If you don't know what you are doing - if you are nervous - if you lack confidence - or are brimming over with overconfidence - this snake can and could kill you. Then try telling those who love you that it is


> just in the nature of what we do


 or that


> Being bitten is part of it when you deal with venomous snakes, it is to be expected


 - both remarks are rubbish! I know many professional herpetologists who have *NEVER* been bitten, and I personally am far from proud of my own mistakes. Getting bitten is *NOT* a mandatory requirement, and if you think it is, then you shouldn't have anything to do with venomous snakes in the first place.

Again ... a further $0.02 ... take them or leave them.


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## Pinkie (Dec 9, 2003)

David, who are you to object if other experienced herpetologists choose to teach and educate others how to handle venomous snakes? I think education is a good thing. On the other hand it is sad that many herpetologists are so precious about this sort of thing. This thread started off on a positive note!



> Whether you like it or not this is an abject admission that the courses you have done have failed to adequately equip you to deal with wild venomous snakes in high stress situations. You have done a course and think you can now go and take venomous snake on your own, but the fact is that your nervousness makes you a danger to yourself and to others because there is one simple rule: if you don't know what you are doing, don't do it!



I was told by a well-known herpetologist who I respect very much "the day you are overconfident with browns will be the day you get bitten". As I said I am not 100% confident, yes. However this doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing or that I am not "equipped" in stressful situations. You can know what you are doing without having to be overconfident about the way you do it.

When dealing with species such as brown snakes I am cautious and wary of the animal and what it is doing. I take my time rather than rush in overconfidently. Are you 100+% confident David? Maybe this was why you were bitten?

And where was it mentioned that I go off on my own to handle these snakes? I go with a Wires buddy because we are both well aware that we are relatively new to this sort of thing, and having two people is a lot easier at times as there is someone to spot you and talk to you. You don't really know what goes on with us on an individual level and I would prefer you didn't make false assumptions.

No, getting bitten is not a "mandatory requirement". My intention was to hopefully point out to you that I am aware it can happen and am prepared for that situation if it does arise. You seemed to generalise in your post by saying these courses give us a "false sense of confidence", well I think we were just trying to point out to you that they don't. I have built up my confidence with elapids since I first started and will continue to do so.

Anyhow I really dont see why we have to justify ourselves to you. I am just happy that the people who do run these courses choose to educate rather than write us newer herpers off altogether like some.


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## toxinologist (Dec 9, 2003)

Pinkie said:


> Anyhow I really dont see why we have to justify ourselves to you.



Nobody said you had to justify yourself to anyone, so get off your high horse and read what was written instead of carrying on

I gave my opinion based on my experience ... which whether you like it or not is substantially greater than your own (by your own implied admissions)

It is entirely up to you whether you take my advice or not, and no skin of my nose whatsoever if you chose not to.



> David, who are you to object if other experienced herpetologists choose to teach and educate others how to handle venomous snakes? I think education is a good thing. On the other hand it is sad that many herpetologists are so precious about this sort of thing



I'm an individual with appropriate experience to make qualified judgements of the supposed benefits of these courses. Based on my experience both as a herpetologist and as a scientist who specialises in studying snakebite and its effects & consequences, my qualified judgement is that these courses _*are not sufficient to adequately prepare people to attempt to handle highly venomous snakes*_.

There is nothing "_precious_" whatsoever about my opinion. It is a professional opinion based on experience, and if you chose to ignore it then that is your perogative, and entirely up to you. Being snide about it simply demonstrates to me that you are not worth giving advice to in the first place, and is a perfect example of why I typically don't offer help to new herpers - _they've bitten the hand that helps them once too often_ - and a lot of my peers have experienced exactly the same sad syndrome.

Obviously we shall have to agree to disagree, and I wish you luck.

Cheers


David


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## Slateman (Dec 9, 2003)

please calm down people.
Pinkie and David expressed they opinion and they did it so well. I enjoyed this entire topic enormously.
Do not start to push your argument to far, you already said enough for all other readers to make they mind on the subject.

David you did get bit hot in one comment and I deleted it Sorry.
I had to deleted one members thread, and next time please do not try to fix abuse of one by abusing even more the other person  

Thank you for great argument you had in civilise manner.


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## saikrett (Dec 9, 2003)

i agree with toxinologist idea of a 12 month TAFE course, that way the students could be monitored over a long period of time and more importaintly learn about the serverity of various snake bites.


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## mystic_herps (Dec 9, 2003)

And who would run these courses?
It is hard enough just to organise 2 day courses run 3 times a year at present...


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## wattso (Dec 10, 2003)

Just a thought, snakes dont know or care who you are or what qualifications you may or may not have. Snakes just want to be left alone. They will strike if they feel threatened. Those who relocate or keep venomous snakes have a responsibilty to themselves/others to learn as much as possible about the snakes and be capable of handling them safely. who cares where or what institution you educate yourself , the bottom line is, confidence is no failsafe against danger, education is. People were handling venomous snakes long before there were any courses at all, most were self taught. You dont need to have a phd in common sense! :wink:


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## Slateman (Dec 10, 2003)

And how you usually handle venomous snakes Watso?


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## wattso (Dec 10, 2003)

I dont Slatey........Common sense mate!  lol


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## Slateman (Dec 10, 2003)

I just teased you bit profesor. I calling you profesor because all your knowledge is from reading. Looks like you read a lot. Well that is the way to get knowledge about our hoby. Not ewerybody can have 50 snakes home.


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## adullthud (Dec 10, 2003)

David, If you are going to attribut quotes then attribut them all. Your post gives the imptression that the last two quotes are mine. Dont become another smuggler.
Peter
I shall respond in full when I have a little more time


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## mystic_herps (Dec 10, 2003)

As a member of WIRES I have an unbiased opinion on this topic.
I feel any education/training is an advantage HOWEVER I see Davids point also.A 2 day course (roughly 16 hours) is far from enough to ready anyone for Elapids BUT if that is the only training we can get in the hobby then that will have to do.Then again,anyone can get an upgraded RK licence to keep Elapids easily enough without any handling experience whatsoever.So in a way it has its pro's & it's cons...

Also I think it should be said that out of those 16 hr WIRES courses there is a mix of theory & practical.Also as there is only 1-2 instructors to a class of several the practical time is distributed between the members individually (even less time spent dealing with the practical side per person,as you have your go then watch the next person etc.).So at the end of the course we have rescuers/relocaters that have only done a few hrs handling time,is this really enough?

But again this is the only educating/training we can get as nobody runs any permanent courses or long term courses to help with this sort of handling.So personally I am all for it although I agree it is very limited on an educated basis,but we learn as we go along...

Just food for thought.


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## wattso (Dec 10, 2003)

Slateman said:


> I just teased you bit profesor. I calling you profesor because all your knowledge is from reading. Looks like you read a lot. Well that is the way to get knowledge about our hoby. Not ewerybody can have 50 snakes home.



 :?  was this funny message to me Slatey? not sure I understand about "50 snakes"??I have only one python you saw him. :?  ???
[scratches head] Yes I do read alot, my local library has given me my own key, lol . I love to read about things that interest me, I have read alot about brain surgery too but thats not to say I will put my hand to practicle knowledge., lol, any volanteers? 

P.s. I reread it Slatey, I see what you mean, not everyone has lots of snakes for first hand "practicle knowledge". ok ..........you like new sig? I will keep funny nickname, mate


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## Pinkie (Dec 10, 2003)

> Also as there is only 1-2 instructors to a class of several the practical time is distributed between the members individually



Wasn't really willing to post again after petty personal attacks but just have to point out this is wrong John. 28 trainees attended my last course and 15 trainers. You do the math 
We also got one-on-one handling for a couple of hours each afternoon if we so desired. [/quote]


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## mystic_herps (Dec 10, 2003)

That was the St Marys ADI site yea?
Well I stand corrected if this is so... 
I was just relaying what I had been told by many members including trainers (well how I interpreted it anyway).

I was under the impression that there was only Wal & Maggie training members in this course.I had said 1-2 trainers as I have since heard that Maggie will no longer be training anymore so I was unsure whether there would be 1 or 2 if they decided to replace her.The reason I had this impression was many WIRES members had told me the 2 main trainers (I guess), including Wal when I approached him about the course (spoke to him and a few others that were attending again for a refresher at a flying fox course held at John Maroney) all with the notion that Wal and/or Maggie does the training with no inclusion of any other trainers or trainee's when they told me.Anyway the course sounds to be run better than I had thought intentionally.Still I would like to see more handling hours being performed BUT as I said you have to take what you can get & this is the only course available really...

I was supposed to attend the armidale course but thought it too far to drive lol.Oh well, there is always next year...


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## adullthud (Dec 10, 2003)

I just spent half an hour responding to David's post and then scrapped it. The reason is that what he is talking about is not what I am talking about. The course I run is for members of a wildlife rescue organisation and for people who have decided to help in the area of reptiles. Part of the service includes venemous reptiles and we oblige. We cannot send our members out cold and without some scrutiny beforehand. The vocational courses in Queensland have no bearing on this and are an issue he should persue with the appropriate authorities in Qld.
On the point of snke bite being part of the whole thing. Being bitten is a real possibility. It is not a death sentence, Yes we do have an amazing medical backup system. That you deem we should lay down and die surprises me.l From a professional such as yourself I find this quite mystifying. As a toxicoligist you must feel then that you are wasting your time. 
I know that most of the world does not have access to the levels of medical care that we do. I applaud those that endeavour to rectify this but at the same time I am not going to discount its existance here
The thing is that without some training for rescuers you would be left with the circus acts to do the removals.


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## toxinologist (Dec 10, 2003)

Hi all _(one last time on this thread...)_

My point about snakebite is that it is inappropriate to apparently downplay the consequences with statements such as:


> It is not a death sentence, Yes we do have an amazing medical backup system


Herpers should not be thinking _"if I get bitten, I'll be okay"_ because regardless of whether of not our medical services are first-rate or not, the *individual* outcome of a snakebite is still far from a medical certainty, especially when you are talking about bites from species in the genera _Pseudonaja_, _Notechis_, _Tropidechis_ or _Oxyuranus_. Dying after the bite of a snake in any of these genera is a very real possibility, and responsible herpers don't downplay these risks with flippant remarks.

Training people to work with these snakes is not the issue either. *The issue is the brevity of experience new herpers/wildlife carers are given in a 1 or 2 day course*, and in my opinion this is insufficient experience to then have those same people going out and attempting to catch highly venomous snakes in urban situations where both the catcher and the snake are under extreme stress.

I took the trouble to followup my comments with the suggestion that someone consider developing a more comprehensive training course, and frankly it surprises me that this was met with nothing but cynicism and dismissal. Anyone here with more than a few years experience would know that a very successful TAFE course in reptile husbandry, handling and care was operated by Dr Harry Ehmann and others at the then Sydney TAFE (now University of Technology) for several years - so doing this is neither impossible nor impractical.

Volunteer wildlife care organisations have a legal duty of care to both the volunteers who take up the call to perform rescues/rehabilitations, and to the general public. My opinion (ie: _the one that I would give under oath as an expert witness at a coronial inquest into the death of a volunteer herper/rescuer killed after attempting to catch a brown snake with no more experience than a 2 day WIRES Reptile Handling Course_) is that providing only 1-2 days of structured training would be insufficient to meet that duty of care, and given the potential dangers, patently negligent. 

It is in the longterm interests of these organisations to sit down with qualified experts and review their current training to determine if it is really sufficient or not, and if not, to then develop a course that this appropriate to ensuring the safety of their volunteers and the general public, and adequately and professional discharging their duty of care responsibilities.

*Bottom line*: 

1. By all means send out volunteers to rescue/rehabilitate venomous snakes but if you are an officer of an organisation under whose umbrella that volunteer works - you have a legal responsibility to minimise the risks to that volunteer.

2. Current 1-2 day handling courses do not in my opinion meet this legal obligation because they do not provide adequate, sufficient appropriate training and experience to these volunteers.

3. Development of a more comprehensive course by the organisations currently running short courses would substantially remedy this problem and greatly reduce the ongoing risk to participants once they go out to actually perform rescues/captures.

Instead of shooting the messenger I would urge people in these organisations, or those involved in the currently available courses to think about the issue and perhaps take appropriate steps to improve their services. 

Did I also mention that particularly for charity/non-funded groups - running a longer course through a TAFE would bring in *(1)* wages for the trainers, and *(2)* course fees to fund your activities...

Cheers


David Williams


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## Slateman (Dec 10, 2003)

I must say that this is not bad idea. I am listening all points of view and with mine limited knowledge, All people in this debate have valuable points. I would like if somebody can make article from all this.
I can see my self that this 2 days courses do have value to our herp. community, but they are definitely not enough to go in the people property to catch King brown and relocate it. To dangerous. But as Pinkie said, thanks got at least for that and till we have nothing else we have to be grateful for little. Wires deserve thank you for that course. Don't forget it is volunteer organization.


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## Nicole (Dec 10, 2003)

I'm not particularly keen to own hots (but do have a certain weakness for RBBSs, that may be an exception), but I'd love a TAFE course as described by David on all aspects of reptile husbandry, (not ven specific), and just for interests sake.

I think this is something I'd like to follow up...
I guess I'll ask TAFE and the Herp Soc... short of that, anyone know who else we can bug about it?


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## Nicole (Dec 10, 2003)

BTW. I'm in favour of the WIRES course and would do it if I could.
As others have said, it's all that's out there... but again, I'm not a rescuer etc, it'd be just for interests sake, I wouldn't be approaching vens outside of the course.


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## Slateman (Dec 10, 2003)

Yes i would be afraid to handle wild browns my self Nicole. Bit of the problem is that you always find some owerconfident young boys who do not have feer. But I would enjoy cours just to get more experiance.


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## adullthud (Dec 12, 2003)

toxinologist said:


> Hi all _(one last time on this thread...)_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hawkeye (Dec 12, 2003)

I would suggest that David has made a very valid point which has been taken as an attack on the WIRES course. I don't think that was his true intention but he was making quite a valid point as several people will take on very dangerous snakes thinking that they will be ok even if they get bitten.

From my experience in ICU in an Australian teaching hospital I think that if you got bitten significantly and came to my Sydney teaching hospital by a eastern brown or taipan you would be in a lot of trouble and would possibly die. Its that simple.

There is an issue regarding how people would be trained for relocation via the WIRES network and the people who do the training are well intentioned but as David said when push comes to shove in court experts like David (trust me he is a world qualified expert on Taipans) and others like Brian Fry are going to say that 1-2 days is not enough training for taking on venemous snakes.

The other issue is that David has brought up a good point in that maybe a TAFE course is a goer (I am sure you would get a lot of people who are interested in Herps doing it) and maybe with your background adullthud you could set it up or teach it?

Cheers Hawkeye


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## Slateman (Dec 12, 2003)

Yes Adulthud. That is not bad idea. I am sure that you will easy put together 20 people who are willing to pay fee for course like that. You can ask in forum how many people from APS would be interested to pay about $ 300 for 2 weeks course. 20 people would pay the expense by my opinion.


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## grahamh (Dec 14, 2003)

I reckon there's as much venom in some of our members as in the average Eastern Brown. I've just read through these posts and there are lots of valid points along with a lot of passion and emotion. I did my course as stated earlier. I dressed appropriately to minimise the risk of being bitten. I had RBBS's and EB's go over my boots and between my legs. 

I went in to the course with my eyes open and got some very valuable instruction from some well know and experienced instructors (2 per group of 7 students). We bagged RBBS's & EB's on open grass, from inside simulated sheds (Cupboards and chest of drawers) and from large piles of rubbish. We worked individually and in pairs. We had practical demonstrations of appropriate behaviour and I left that course confident that I could go on to perform rescues in a safe manner. I will need experience to turn that small amount of training into confident practice. I will remenber the advice received and know that if I find myself in a situation where I am not confident that I do not have to put myself in danger. I have an experienced mentor that I can call on if the need arises. The whole thing is a voluntary service to the community and I look forward to performing a role that will help others, save a few snakes from the garden spade or hosepipe and in the process gain some interesting experience. If I get bitten I am prepared to accept the consequences and I have a prety good idea of how bad that can be. I don't recommend the course for everyone, it's not for people that want to learn to handle snakes or get rid of a 'snake fear. It is not a big ego trip, it is a fascinating aspect of a fascinating subject. As Laura said I will also go again and again to the course whenever it is available.

I will never miss the chance to handle a snake so long as it is in the interest of the snake and my education.

G 8)


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## Robert (Dec 14, 2003)

My question is do you need a Specialists Licence(What we call it in QLD)or class2 Licence if that is what is called down south, to do the WIRES course???


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## grahamh (Dec 14, 2003)

Answer 

not for the NATF course and I believe the WIRES one is the same (Craig or Laura can answer that).


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## adullthud (Dec 14, 2003)

I am not with WIRES. I am with Sydney Wildlife. The largest Wildlife Rescue organisation in the greater Sydney area. We are person to person, no answering machines.
02 94134300


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## grahamh (Dec 14, 2003)

NATF doesn't use answering machines we have a dedicated bunch of people that take it in turn to answer calls and then find the appropriate available person to handle the rescue.

It's great that we have so many willing wildlife resuers in so many great organisations.

Native Animal Trust Fund call centre - 0500 502 294 (Hunter Valley area)


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## Slateman (Dec 15, 2003)

Grahamh I do not think that people who express their opinion differently mean to upset you and they did it quite nicely and in good manner. I am absolute bystander and I am looking at this argument from Bought sides. Wires please keep doing good work and If possible, we should look at chance to get better preparation then 2 days course only.
No point to get upset about this on APS

Watso think that I took your post out of concept. With my language skill that is possible. If that is the case I am sorry mate. I just thought that you are little upset about all this.


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## nuthn2do (Dec 15, 2003)

> My question is do you need a Specialists Licence(What we call it in QLD)or class2 Licence if that is what is called down south, to do the WIRES course???



You only need to be a current member of WIRES, which involves doing a 2 day training course on basic rescue and care of wildlife. Then the specialist courses like reptile, raptor etc can be completed as they become available.


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## Slateman (Dec 15, 2003)

Must say that Wires course do not claim that people who attending it will be experts to handle all toxic snakes. This course should give people just as much knowledge, as possible in 2 days.
After this many people are looking for more experiance elswere if they thing that this is what they want to do. That is my impression after all posts here in this topic. You see, I learned something here. :wink: If I will have choice in the future to get in to thyis course, I will do this. But I don't think that this course make me expert instantly.
I remember when Pinkie finished her first one, she said that she is feeling more confident after the course, but I am sure that she did not went to catch brown snakes on her own.


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## grahamh (Dec 15, 2003)

Hi Jan

I didn't feel upset by the comments - I just wanted to make the point that for at least the course I attended I was well looked after and the education I received was adequate for me to start rescuing snakes. To become an expert requires practice and education and then practice and education. You have to start somewhere and education is a good place to start.

G


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## Slateman (Dec 15, 2003)

That is good grahamh. I think that people who posted to this topic ment well and tried to put their wiew nicely. This 2 days course from Wires is really popular with herp public. Did you get any chance to do some rescuing after course


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