# Question five: Where do we go from here? Its up to you!



## glebo (Aug 11, 2013)

Finally, I hope you have come this far and question five here puts things into perspective. Please have a say and PM me if you don't want a name next to your voice. I appreciate all you have done!

You have all read and many have answered the four questions I have posed to date, there were many good and well thought out answers that came from different perspectives – a really good debate and one that showed we are all passionate at an individual level about our hobby, being given a fair go, the environment and the laws that govern it. Here is the kicker – Government’s *DO NOT* deal with small, unaffiliated groups and individuals. They may listen but they only very rarely act on them. They don’t need to and can in many instances treat you with contempt because – _what can you do to affect them being re-elected_? Write a letter and vent your outrage – BIG DEAL! There is no more relevant testament to this statement about how they treat you than the debate on this site about the cage sizes in NSW (see: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/help-join-protest-new-oeh-205674/). However if this were taken up and addressed by a Representative Reptile Body that could boast many tens of thousands of members at both State or Federal levels you would have your say heard because as a voting collective you can influence outcomes.
Many years ago I was a member of AFANT (the Amateur Fisherman’s Association of the Northern Territory). This group represents the interests of fishermen in the NT and each state has a similar organization. It has a full time paid position that is funded by a grant from the NT Government each year along with yearly contributions from all fishermen that see their voice as important. There are many thousands of fishermen in each state that together ask for things to happen like new boat ramps, kids fishing clinics and a myriad of other ideas, and this group follows it up by addressing the Government. I was also a member of RecFish Australia, which as you can guess is the parent body that deals with recreational fishing in Australia and is based in Canberra and can access Federal Ministers for Fisheries among others almost on notice. With almost everything we addressed we made sure a favourable compromise was reached on behalf of ALL fishermen.
I know this is a tough concept to grasp and many times in the past we have come unstuck with poor or no outcome mostly because as passionate reptile enthusiasts we are fragmented, unorganized and above all just a heap of individuals who til now have remained that way. However many other passionate individuals with similar interests have put together a parent group to work for the wishes of the majority (ie: democratically) so why shouldn’t we? A simple example goes back to the fishing groups. Fishing varies from the mega rich that use million dollar boats to chase Marlin right down to the kid off the jetty with a hand-line catching garfish and everything in between. No doubt these diverse interest groups don’t talk to each other but they are prepared to fight for the others right to fish by being part of a larger group that supports this right. They are all passionate about their group as we would be, but they have the ability and means to effect change if they see inequity or poor allocation of resources or even bad laws. We do not even appear close to being able to do this – at this stage, but it is possible. 
So question five is simple!
_Can we put aside our many differences and fight for our right to keep and conserve reptiles?_ 
We would need to put our hand in our pocket for, say, $10.00 each year, in order to put together a strong Australia wide group that can deal directly with ministers and Governments to address the many problems that we keep raising on forums like this. With all of you we can make a difference! Just look at the lengths politicians are going to right now prior to the September 7 election. 

Kind Regards
Gavin Bedford


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## Hamalicious (Aug 11, 2013)

I think this is good in theory but i'm worried how well it would work in practise. Like your example about NSW enclosure sizes. I read through the document and i was 100% in favour of the enclosure sizes, all of them were perfectly reasonable and i would be worried if people were keeping in anything smaller.

I feel like the human race has an amazing ability to convince ourselves that what is convenient is also right. We want to keep more reptiles than we can house, so we convince ourselves that they don't need much room. I saw one thread where a guy wanted to keep adult carpets in 30cm high tubs. This kind of practise is perfectly legal and i'm sure many keepers would see this as good enough. 

So my point is, i worry that if we are able to make all the decisions, many keepers will push for laws that are convenient instead of whats right for our animals. I think there needs to be a group of knowledgeable people who give advice on appropriate laws and guidelines, but i wouldn't feel comfortable putting my faith into a lot of the people i hear about on a day to day basis.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 11, 2013)

Keepers are like you wrote very fragmented and also very apathetic with regards to this topic as well as a lot of others,take the mandatory NSW enclosure size as an example.The NRKA,despite the good intentions of those behind it never got off the ground,mores the pity.

Too many keepers with too many individual agendas not to mention egos seem to stand in the way.

Personally I would love to see a national body set up with representatives coming from each state perhaps elected by members of all the local herp societies from around the country.


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## Wild~Touch (Aug 11, 2013)

"Can we put aside our many differences and fight for our right to keep and conserve reptiles?" 

Oh how I sincerely wish it could be done.

Look at the Equine Industry which is huge and parts of it extremely wealthy, ie, Thoroughbred Racing Industry...even they cannot agree on the best interests of the animals.

You have Pony Clubs, Breed Societies, Studs & more all interested in horses and activities associated with them.

It's all about the almighty dollar and each one has their interests at heart. $$$$$$

How would one expect a Reptile orientated body to come together and fight for rights when even they can not agree on seemingly simple matters

I would gladly donate $100.00..........IF..... I trusted the governing body and the people behind it. PWF before that happens

The above is my opinion only and not intended to be disrespectful.

Cheers
Sandee


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## SteveNT (Aug 11, 2013)

AFANT is still very effective although I don't necessarily always share their vision. When "I FISH and I VOTE" stickers appeared on 2/3 of the cars in Darwin the government certainly took notice. Suddenly boat registration was off the agenda and the parties started a bidding war on new or improved boat ramps. I don't think herpers are able to generate that sort of clout.

I would be happy to put in $10 of my hard earned even for a couple of small victories. So count me in.

Steve


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## Stuart (Aug 11, 2013)

While there's arguments for and against having a national body and everyone has their own reasons why, I still believe there's a requirement for some to stand up for what they believe is right. If not, one day we are doomed to wake up and live by the rules of those who got them in place because it was easy and not because they were right. 

Just my opinion of course. 

Im in and all for it Gavin.


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## borntobnude (Aug 11, 2013)

From the replies so far I think it would need to be state bodies with a parent administration team to sort through the petty stuff and throw the biggies at the government . It would definitely be worth a try . As with my other passion there are a few state groups and an attempt at a national body .even an international body that sometimes gets people talking , but you have groups / individuals / business's and more and that's why it struggles .


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## Snowman (Aug 11, 2013)

Something I've always wanted. Especially since WA has some crazy laws like having to sell through a private dealer and pay at least $50 to move an animal. If you live in a remote area of WA and you dont have access to a private dealer you cant wven give a friend a reptile. Its just crazy!! Or the cost of $350 a year for a license to keep an olive python. The problem I see, is would a national body care about the problems we face in WA?


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 11, 2013)

Employing a national body is the only way for herpers to have any possible say regarding the future of the hobby.
Without a NATIONAL body where do we all think the hobby will be in 5, 10 or 20 years time? Will we like where the hobby goes?
Whether representation will make the future any better is difficult to say but surely its better to front up and have a go rather than sitting in the background and whimpering about the changes made that effect every one of us.

I would be happy to put in Gav.


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## fishead (Aug 11, 2013)

Gday Gavin, I think it's an excellent idea. As you mentioned the fat cat politicians that make the rules in our hypo.... sorry democracy care only for the vote. Numbers = power.
I vote Gavin Bedford for grand poobah of the Federal Australian Reptile Keepers Association. 
ie. FARKA


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## Pilbarensis (Aug 11, 2013)

Only if the correct individuals are chose as consultants, truly experienced keepers and breeders that have have been around for a great deal longer than I have, or most other people on this forum for that matter. People I shall not name but those who have been in the hobby for a while will get the general idea of which individuals I am talking about. However the key issue I feel I must address is the differences between those who have a small collection of snakes, basic lizards and similar species compared to experienced people that keep and breed specific locales of pythons (NOT morphs), elapids, monitors, skinks and dragons.

I would say that people part of the first group are not consultants and although yes the could mention some ideas or put theories forwards they would not be in direct communications with departments. Truly experienced individuals with at least 20+ years in the hobby would be the only ones to have direct communication and be able to truly advise the government. The group in between however is a mixed bag, those who are experienced and know what they are talking about would have the ability to be in regular communication with those experienced individuals however there would have to be restrictions. 

Too many inexperienced people, that think more changes are necessary. Honestly the only changes needed in the hobby at the moment are more species added to some states schedules, more collection permits for species or specific locales not yet in captivity and guidelines for what departments CANNOT do (for example the enclosure size restrictions in NSW).


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## Darlyn (Aug 11, 2013)

I agree to a point. I'm unsure how keeping reptiles at home helps in conservation. I think differing laws and regulations in each state and territory would make a national body very difficult to maintain, but you have to start somewhere. Ignoring the problems won't make them go away. You have my $10.00. I am also a firm believer that it is up to us to push for better education in the protection of snakes and educating people on how to live with them. Without a united voice nationally this will probably never happen.


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## zulu (Aug 11, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Something I've always wanted. Especially since WA has some crazy laws like having to sell through a private dealer and pay at least $50 to move an animal. If you live in a remote area of WA and you dont have access to a private dealer you cant wven give a friend a reptile. Its just crazy!! Or the cost of $350 a year for a license to keep an olive python. The problem I see, is would a national body care about the problems we face in WA?



Problem in WA is that you have a system that is built primarily on wild taking for government royalties,you and reptile keepers in general need to focus on captive bred.
Limited taking of rare species and those not held in captive collections is what the average herpetoculturalist needs ,not more stimsons ,bhps,womas etc


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## Snowman (Aug 11, 2013)

zulu said:


> Problem in WA is that you have a system that is built primarily on wild taking for government royalties,you and reptile keepers in general need to focus on captive bred.
> Limited taking of rare species and those not held in captive collections is what the average herpetoculturalist needs ,not more stimsons ,bhps,womas etc


Not sure you know what you are talking about.... Or most likely I don't understand what you are saying... 
Wild taking seems to be self limiting. There are so many captive bred animals now that it's not worth taking from the wild due to the royalty that you have to pay. There are no royalties attached to captive bred and every man and his dog is breeding over here at the moment it seems.... Nothing rare was and is added to our keepers list due to the wild taking to establish the pet trade. I'm not sure I would support wild taking of rare animals anyway, unless it was done properly for release programs back into the wild... Peoples pets will never be suitable for wild release.
Perhaps that is why we cant keep rough scaled pythons? 
Though we cant even keep wheeleri, perthensis and other fairly common animals endemic to WA that the east coast keeps. 
The only reason they allowed the taking of stimi's, bhps, woma's etc is because they didnt want any east coast pythons coming in. There is a strong belief that all your snakes carry sunshine virus, IBD etc etc... So without the wild taking we could not establish a WA pet colony of animals that are common over east in the pet herpetofauna hobby... Interesting that we haven't had any cases of disease in private collections since keeping began in 2003. Though I'd like to see the import ban lifted, I can't argue that perhaps it actually working... I do note that other animals are coming in that can carry some of the said diseases, but in far fewer quantities perhaps.


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## jedi_339 (Aug 11, 2013)

fishead said:


> Federal Australian Reptile Keepers Association.
> ie. FARKA



Or Federal Australian Reptile Keepers Union.........:lol:


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## Darlyn (Aug 11, 2013)

"There is a strong belief that all your snakes carry sunshine virus, IBD etc etc..." That is a bit far fetched. I would hope it is not true that people believe this. Maybe you should start a different thread on this topic?


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## Snowman (Aug 11, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> "There is a strong belief that all your snakes carry sunshine virus, IBD etc etc..." That is a bit far fetched. I would hope it is not true that people believe this. Maybe you should start a different thread on this topic?


It's just one of the reasons DEC give us for not letting in pythons from other states. Far fetched? Yes, I think they could quarantine animals anyway. But at present there is a python import ban on ALL species. Even Perth Zoo cant get a GTP in. It's on topic, as I'd like to know if a national group could tackle such things and look at ways for things like GTP to be brought in, even if strict quarantine had to be adhered too. There are many things in WA that could be looked at, but it's a waste of time without a strong organisation that can tackle the government departments.


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## Darlyn (Aug 11, 2013)

Snowman said:


> It's just one of the reasons DEC give us for not letting in pythons from other states. Far fetched? Yes, I think they could quarantine animals anyway. But at present there is a python import ban on ALL species. Even Perth Zoo cant get a GTP in. It's on topic, as I'd like to know if a national group could tackle such things and look at ways for things like GTP to be brought in, even if strict quarantine had to be adhered too. There are many things in WA that could be looked at, but it's a waste of time without a strong organisation that can tackle the government departments.


 A strong organisation has to start somewhere and this is a good place to start. Having goals that the wider herp community can agree on that are inclusive of all borders would probably be the first hurdle of many.


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## congo_python (Aug 11, 2013)

fishead said:


> Gday Gavin, I think it's an excellent idea. As you mentioned the fat cat politicians that make the rules in our hypo.... sorry democracy care only for the vote. Numbers = power.
> I vote Gavin Bedford for grand poobah of the Federal Australian Reptile Keepers Association.
> ie. FARKA



Love it ....
I am for a State/National association to be formed as long as the members are voted in by the licenesed keepers of each state and then possibly those members can vote in the national associates party members. I'd donate $10.00 a year if our voice gets more recognition amongst all the regulatory party's who at the moment set license laws.


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 11, 2013)

congo_python said:


> Love it ....
> I am for a State/National association to be formed as long as the members are voted in by the licenesed keepers of each state and then possibly those members can vote in the national associates party members. I'd donate $10.00 a year if our voice gets more recognition amongst all the regulatory party's who at the moment set license laws.



Ditto. Exactly how i would of written it.


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## congo_python (Aug 11, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Keepers are like you wrote very fragmented and also very apathetic with regards to this topic as well as a lot of others,take the mandatory NSW enclosure size as an example.The NRKA,despite the good intentions of those behind it never got off the ground,mores the pity.
> 
> Too many keepers with too many individual agendas not to mention egos seem to stand in the way.
> 
> Personally I would love to see a national body set up with representatives coming from each state perhaps elected by members of all the local herp societies from around the country.



I agree and as seen from the NRKA episode/the over looking of good advice, we need a better voice with an association of 1000's members registered to get things heard and respected via the greater good. Just look at the unions power these days.

This WILL be the only way we can and will be acknowledged.


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## Newhere (Aug 11, 2013)

I'd chuck in 10 bucks, I'd even make it 15 if I get a sticker out of it  Are you planning on doing something about it or are you just asking? I think it would be a good idea if it was run by experienced people and helped out with problems like the one in wa that has been spoken about.


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## wokka (Aug 12, 2013)

I wonder if there needs to be more fiscal reality. $10 would cover the cost of processing membership but not much more. I understand that we dont want to inhibit membership by setting the bar too high but realisticly we need a strong financial base as well as membership base. I would like to see the ability to engauge a professional lobbyist , which costs money, So many organisations fail because they are dependant upon voluntary labour. I would suggest a tiered membership of say $10 for base membership and then say $50 for advanced membership, after all licencing costs more than that in many states.


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 12, 2013)

im more then happy to put in my 10 bucks. Im with wokka on the $50 advanced membership.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 12, 2013)

Thanks again Gavin for putting your thought-provoking ideas forward on this forum. This is such a difficult question to debate - the needs we as a group have, and the contributions we can make, not only to herpetoCULTURE, but to herpetOLOGY in general vs the variation in state laws (many are demonstrably stupid...) and the need to streamline and modernise the thinking within the various state bureaucracies. A large part of the problem we face now is bureaucratic resistance to the notion (it's now probably more a fact!) that our fauna is becoming commodified, ie, a tradeable asset. This is quite distasteful to many of the old-schoolers in the management authorities, despite it being perhaps the only way some species will survive in the long term. You just hyave to look at the head-in-the-sand attitude of the WA bureaucrats when anticipating the advance of the Cane Toad into WA - you cannot take protected fauna despite the fact that it's going to die if you don't... Sure, you'll get exploiters creaming a bit off the top at the beginning, but if the ultimate aim is to prevent the loss of species forever, and the aim is achieved, who bloody-well cares??? Back in 2004, I pulled the RSP file from CALM under FOI, and it made interesting reading. CALM simply ignored the early correspondence from JW, until the Minister was contacted and forced the beginning of dialogue... which lead to the situation we have seen unfold with this species. In the file, John mentions that he believed that within 10 years of the first breedings, the RSP would be a $200 snake. He wasn't far off the mark, despite his prophecy sounding (to me!) far fetched. Bear in mind that this was a species completely unknown to science until 1979-80, and one which took him many trips to secure the 5 individuals that have got the species to where it is in captivity today. This is a fine example of what an individual who has tenacity, knowledge and resouces can do for a species which may be very vulnerable to even minor changes in its habitat. It looks as though Gavin is on a similar trajectory with the Oenpelli, and as one who has watched the RSP story unfold, I will be thrilled to see developments with this species...

Those three qualities - tenacity, knowledge and resources - are major requirements any national body will need to interact fruitfully with the state and federal bodies across the country, and I believe that tenacity is critical. Elitism and downright cynicism (anybody interested in "exploiting" wildlife is likely have a criminal intent) is rife in the state bodies - the generalised belief that amateur keepers know nothing and cannot contribute meaningfully to the conservation debate often kills dialogue before it has a chance to start. Reflecting on our work in WA, it was only a kick up the backside from 2 consecutive Ministers (Lib and Lab) which got us past the starting gate - where CALM had kept us for a number of years. In some jurisdictions, we may have to wait until those carrying the established negative values retire or move on, if political pressure can't be brought to bear. Hence the need for tenacity. But we also need to increase our influence in those bureaucracies, to prevent or reduce the idealogical "trickle-down" effect which is prevalent in those organisations. A professional lobbyist sounds like a very good idea to me.

The range of skills and breadth of knowledge that serious herp keepers can bring to the table in this country is potentially enormous, it can (and should) certainly be harnessed to prevent total extinctions where it is likely this may happen. It is a resource not recognised by blinkered and uncooperative bureaucracies. For me this is a source of continual frustration...

Having said all that, many of our problems come from within our own ranks, and serve only to enhance the cynicism within government ranks - the "anything goes" mentality - mixed breedings, the urgent need we have for the designer snakes and morphs so obviously first bred overseas etc, etc, add a lot of negative noise to the serious debate we need to have with wildlife authorities.

The question is - how do we cut through that crap and establish a sensible dialogue...?

Jamie


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## Channaz (Aug 12, 2013)

Yes, there is a wide variety of views in the reptile "world". We have many different opinions and they are frequently conflicting.

However, the issue for now is to simply get a structure up and running. Differences can be debated down the track, but we will get nowhere if we start by squabbling over them now. Plenty of time for that later on. 

We need a starting group to get things rolling, a process to work towards getting agreements from the various herp societies, a proposed body, a basic constitution, an agreed number of representatives and a timeline for bringing it all together.

And yes, I know that is a much larger task than it may sound.


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## hayden123113 (Aug 12, 2013)

$10.00 seems a cheap price for our voices to be heard,


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## Channaz (Aug 12, 2013)

hayden123113 said:


> $10.00 seems a cheap price for our voices to be heard,



I'd also keep the fee to something like $10, at least in the short term. 

It's more important to be representing a substantial proportion of the herpers from around the country. Numbers bring clout. So too does money, but I reckon numbers are more important, at least over the first few years.

Many people would give it a miss if it is a higher amount.


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## wokka (Aug 12, 2013)

There are probably 100,000 potential members out there, maybe 200,000, with an interest in reptiles. If we get 10% of them financially involved that would be $100,000. Is that enough?


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## Bushman (Aug 13, 2013)

glebo said:


> ...So question five is simple!
> _Can we put aside our many differences and fight for our right to keep and conserve reptiles?_
> We would need to put our hand in our pocket for, say, $10.00 each year, in order to put together a strong Australia wide group that can deal directly with ministers and Governments to address the many problems that we keep raising on forums like this. With all of you we can make a difference!...


I think we _can_ put aside our differences and join together as one representative body. 
This _needs_ to happen and thank you for taking the initiative to start discussions such as this Gavin.
I'd be happy to contribute financially and in any other way that I can to support such an initiative.


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## Owzi (Aug 16, 2013)

Can we put aside our many differences and fight for our right to keep and conserve reptiles? 

YES!
Surely we can. I have enjoyed having native reptiles in my home for over 20 years now. In my opinion having national representation for keepers is a must & the biggest change that needs to happen in this hobby/industry.

We are all about to vote for a political party, doesn't mean we agree with 100% of their opinions. 
I'm part of a union, again I don't agree 100% of the time.

It would finally give us all a voice.

If there are intelligent & respected individuals offering their time to get this off the ground we would be fools to not encourage them!

Gavin & Greg, you have my support 100% of the way- good luck!

Andrew


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## eipper (Aug 16, 2013)

Hi Gavin,

Certainly there must be a national body. It needs to be elected. For too long this industry has been curtailed by red tape that is simply not required. If for instance all state based systems were abolished and a national system implemented so much [email protected] could be eliminated.

Both commercially and privately I would be a member of such an organization, give me a bank account in which to place a deposit!

Cheers,
Scott Eipper


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## Striker (Aug 17, 2013)

I believe the concept is a good one and would happily contribute financially. It has always seemed ridiculous to me that the experts don't seem to have a voice. The additional fact that any of us can so readily shoot holes in the current government management systems in place and clearly demonstrate why they don't work, are inconsistent and achieve nothing is equally ridiculous. 

Having recently managed an account and fund raising exercise for an altruistic purpose, I learnt a great deal about people, money and "best intentions". Any fund raising for a purpose like this must be recurring. There would be little point raising enough money to get the ball rolling and then struggling to keep things moving 12 months later (or some other time in the future). People who intend to contribute may well mean to....but many will never get there. Particularly on a recurring basis. As such my first suggestion would be rather than seeking $10 deposits, seek $1 (or whatever amount you choose) weekly deposits set up as a direct debit right from the start. Not only will this raise more money, but it will be ongoing. Once the form is completed once, everyone forgets about it as it's an insignificant amount and the money keeps coming in. 

I've also come to realise that for many, something is expected in return. The knowledge that they are funding a group aimed to benefit the hobby will be enough for some, but not everyone. I would suggest incorporating the payment into other ventures (a subscription, newsletter, subsidies from supportive organisations etc). 


Additionally I would aim to seek some small percentage of funds from any other relevant organisation and/or the various societies (AHS etc) that are already successfully securing payment. ie. perhaps add a dollar to the cost of membership, zoo entry or whatever and contribute these funds to this project. Ideally over time the cost could be incorporated into the licencing costs and the whole thing would be self-sufficient. Or better yet the various government agencies can just recruit the same guys we want representing us to work for them and there will be no need for any of this. Can't really see that one happening.. 

This is all just my view of the situation and I'm sure many will view it differently. It probably also seems like I'm getting ahead of myself with something that is just a proposal at the moment and maybe I am. But I believe if these things are considered early and where possible implemented at the outset it will increase the chance of success and be of greater benefit down the track.


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## SteveNT (Aug 17, 2013)

Hey Striker. Break it down into chunks. People digest it better that way, No offence,


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## saintanger (Aug 17, 2013)

i'm happy to chuck in $50, our reptiles need a voice and us keepers who have the reptiles best interests at heart should be that voice not someone behind a desk pushing paper that does not even own a reptile.


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## Striker (Aug 18, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> Hey Striker. Break it down into chunks. People digest it better that way, No offence,



yeah I know. Its driving me nuts. For some reason on this website when I hit enter to move down a line it won't let me. 

It's my computer I think cause it works on my phone. Any suggestions? I've broken it up using my phone for now.


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## Rob (Aug 18, 2013)

Striker said:


> yeah I know. Its driving me nuts. For some reason on this website when I hit enter to move down a line it won't let me.
> 
> It's my computer I think cause it works on my phone. Any suggestions? I've broken it up using my phone for now.



It's a known issue one of the many known issues with Internet Explorer 10. The fix is to either turn off the WYSIWYG editor, or use a different browser. I recommend Google Chrome, but Firefox (or similar) will work just as well.


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## yellowbeard (Aug 18, 2013)

jedi_339 said:


> Or Federal Australian Reptile Keepers Union.........:lol:



LOL



G'day Gav,
Basically you are talking about creating a Union (a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose), with great power comes great responsibility and power corrupts absolutely!

Safe guards must be set in place to insure no corruption of the said organisation, as shown recently with the Unions backing political parties using their members contributions without their members permission to do so, running their own political/personnel agendas etc. as shown with the clerks who set up the Code of practice for the private keeping of reptiles who now have more lucrative employment. From what I understand they just ignored the information provided (more than a hundred years of herpetology experience!!) and run with their own animal welfare agendas (power corrupts absolutely)!

For example said organisation should not make any decision with out a 70-80% majority vote from all members, all finances, decisions etc. should be documented and transparent for all members to view.

If this could be achieved I would happily contribute $10.00 a year.


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## Owzi (Aug 18, 2013)

Yellowbeard, I dare say the name suggested by Jedi was more to do with it's acronym than anything else


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## yellowbeard (Aug 19, 2013)

Striker said:


> yeah I know. Its driving me nuts. For some reason on this website when I hit enter to move down a line it won't let me.
> 
> It's my computer I think cause it works on my phone. Any suggestions? I've broken it up using my phone for now.



When making a quick reply: in the tool bar click "switch editor to source mode" (its the far left button)
then
you
create
a 
new line


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 19, 2013)

This is such a many faceted issue - stupid regulations state-by-state that are actually now contributing to the loss of species, a huge variation in the needs of keepers across the country (Qld keepers basically have no real problems... WA keepers have enormous problems), the credibility difficulties we bring upon ourselves by supporting smuggled morphs/exotics, not to mention the resistance State bureaucracies will have to any suggestion that control be centralised, possibly in Canberra. It would be very difficult for us to demonstrate any POLITICAL advantage in centralisation, regardless of the ease it would give a lobby group in liaising with decision-makers. At the moment, each state/territory thinks they have the best system, and they are united only in their desire to catch miscreants (not a bad thing in itself) - as far as policy goes, the prospect of any of the states handing power to anyone else is just about nil. 

I'm certainly not saying that a national group isn't needed, or that it can't achieve success as we move forward, but I see from many of the responses here that as a group we have identified a number of problems from the outset, a major one being the diversity of state regs across the country. To suggest at this stage, when we haven't even undertaken the huge task of surveying the needs of keepers across the country, that centralising and unifying the state wildlife management policies will assist us in achieving our goals, is putting the cart way before the horse. Any such move by the states would be decades away, if it ever happens.

Any lobby group will have to work long and hard to firstly identify the real problems we face in each jurisdiction, and then develop a priority list and strategy for dealing with each one. For me, it would begin with attempting to raise our credibility with these bureaucracies (and bear in mind that it's not only the keepers who lack cred, the departments themselves often lack any shred of credibility when it comes to conservation - WA & the Cane Toad invasion for example). It's people like Gavin who contribute enormously to increasing our credibility as a useful resource for conservation (or at least species preservation) and increased knowledge. I'm sure that in the NT, Gavin's efforts will be met with the interest, appreciation and acknowledgement they deserve... but I've been totally bemused in the last 10 years that John Weigel's efforts with the RSP - a massively important demonstration of what can be done when enthusiasm, determination and skills are combined - have largely been ignored by the CALM/DEC/whatever they call themselves now. In any of the discussions we had over the years up until 2003 when WA came out of the steam era, the RSP story was NEVER mentioned, even though the successes were being acknowledged in other states.

I've had lots of discussions with Greg M about the huge potential the private sector has if it is allowed to become involved (and more importantly participate) in the conservation debate (my particular area of interest) - we have within our ranks the important resources of time, space, some of us have money (not me lol!), a keeness to see beneficial change among other attributes. Not everybody will share my priorities of course, but I think that if we can start the ball rolling by challenging the bureaucratic notion that we are all a bunch of money-hungry exploiters and black-marketeers, and are keen to use our resources to gain a better understanding of our fauna, then hopefully there will be an overarching benefit to reptile keepers as a whole. To me, the question of credibility is the single most important issue we face. There are, within our ranks, individuals who will tear our credibility to shreds for quick personal gain in an instant if we don't develop the means to sideline them, or at least isolate those with demonstrably good intentions from any influence they might have.

Sorry for the massive essay again , but I did start by saying this is a multi-faceted task. Not an impossible one by any means, but one which will require sound strategies at the outset for dealing with internal matters as well as external. It won't matter how you approach a Government department with your well-intentioned plan on Tuesday if the've busted a significant reptile smuggler the day before. Currently most of us are tarred with the same brush.

Jamie


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## Snowman (Aug 20, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> CALM/DEC/whatever they call themselves now.


If they added to the keepers list as often as they changed names we would have quite a list by now! They are now know as *Department of Parks and Wildlife* (*DPaW*)


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## Striker (Aug 21, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> When making a quick reply: in the tool bar click "switch editor to source mode" (its the far left button)
> then
> you
> create
> ...



Thanks for that. 

Easy...


Getting back to the topic of this thread, now that these questions have been asked and many have provided comments and opinions I will be interested to keep track of what happens next. Gavin (and anyone else involved) where possible please keep us informed of your intentions, the next actions and of course, whether or not there is anything that your average reptile fan can do to help.


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## ronhalling (Aug 22, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> This is such a many faceted issue - stupid regulations state-by-state that are actually now contributing to the loss of species, a huge variation in the needs of keepers across the country (Qld keepers basically have no real problems... WA keepers have enormous problems), the credibility difficulties we bring upon ourselves by supporting smuggled morphs/exotics, not to mention the resistance State bureaucracies will have to any suggestion that control be centralised, possibly in Canberra. It would be very difficult for us to demonstrate any POLITICAL advantage in centralisation, regardless of the ease it would give a lobby group in liaising with decision-makers. At the moment, each state/territory thinks they have the best system, and they are united only in their desire to catch miscreants (not a bad thing in itself) - as far as policy goes, the prospect of any of the states handing power to anyone else is just about nil.
> 
> I'm certainly not saying that a national group isn't needed, or that it can't achieve success as we move forward, but I see from many of the responses here that as a group we have identified a number of problems from the outset, a major one being the diversity of state regs across the country. To suggest at this stage, when we haven't even undertaken the huge task of surveying the needs of keepers across the country, that centralising and unifying the state wildlife management policies will assist us in achieving our goals, is putting the cart way before the horse. Any such move by the states would be decades away, if it ever happens.
> 
> ...



Thanks Jamie, you have said everything i had on my mind on this subject, i have been trying to work out how to put it in print without sounding like a know-it-all, I know from personal experience how many brick walls a person/group comes up against when trying to set up something like this Association Gavin is talking about, as back in the early 80's i helped get into being the L.D.R.T.A (Long Distance Road Transport Association) and the T.W.A.F.A (Truckies Wives And Families Association) with Ted "Mad Dog" Stevens, It is not the Federal departments that are the real problem it is the States and Territories and their refusals to talk to each other on points of common interest least one gets more kudos than the other, In the end we had to align ourselves with the T.W.U before we could be viewed with any credibility.

In my humble opinion we should wait till all this electioneering has finished and all the votes are counted before any talks begin with anyone, then an expression of interest should be sent to the Local and State "Greens" Members outlining what it is we want and what outcome we are looking at seeing, adding as much checkable information as can humanly be added (more is better in this case) and then continuously lobbying these Members until a face to face meeting can be organised between them and duly elected members of our Association, Creating an Association is the easy bit, it is the lobbying and harassing of the State and Territory members of Parliament that is the time and money killer.

We all have to realise also that in it's infancy an Association eats a lot of funds and a lot of people are not going to understand this, so a Mission Statement outlining where the money will be spent and why has to be drafted and given to every member who donates money no matter how much or little it is so that no inferences to impropriety can be made as this is another credibility killer when it comes to dealing with government departments. there are hundreds of other pitfalls that could be mentioned here but that would again be putting the cart before the horse, lets all get behind Gavin and if he wants to try and get this thing up and running we need to give him all the support we can because as i previously mentioned in this ramble i have been there in the beginning of projects like this and know what road blocks he is going to hit.  ...................................Ron


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## glebo (Aug 22, 2013)

G'day Everyone.
I agree with so many of your sentiments and it is with people like many of you who have experience with the grass roots beginnings of organisations that we will need to guide the 'next steps’! Any group will need to take on board so many of your good ideas and thinking but this will not be a quick process. We should get it correct and align all ducks and disseminate as much information to everyone who is into reptiles about the ideas and how they benefit everyone and get significant feedback before we do anything in a big way. However to do nothing is also just as paralyzing, so it is important that those who do have time and can help in this process, do so. We can put together a volunteer interest group to help get this process in action, and this might be achieved relatively easily if we have names of people prepared to help (I know we have many already from the forum and phone calls which is great). It will not help that we all live in different states but this age of the social media has some advantages I’m sure. By that I am hoping that someone can supply or suggest an email account (or we all have facebook (ill need help there for sure)) that we use as a point of reference for this group, and have different volunteers working on things like code of practice (maybe the recommendations put to Parks NSW by the 12 men with 300 years keeping experience between them would be a good document to start with?), registration, mission statement, research, fund raising, web site, legal standing, newsletter, administration, applications, working with parks authorities, natural groups within our ranks like conservation, morphs and breeding. This is to name but a few of the million things that need to take place. I have spoken at length to a few of you and am heartened by the overwhelming response of support. 

I heard this morning that there are 5 million people who are recreational fishers in Australia, and while I have no doubt we are not that big, from the different media and resources we have there are probably a few hundred thousand people who are very interested in reptiles in Australia, and of course their families, not to mention the reach of the pet industry itself. I am therefore convinced that we do have the numbers to not only make this happen, but to also effect change where it is needed. Please remember we do not want to set this up as a vehicle for me or any individual, it is not to bash people or create bad blood, but to ensure we are recognized as a legitimate interest group, that is as diverse as any in Australia and where necessary have our say listened to at any level, be it legal, political or social. I am confident with the correct structure most people will benefit from its workings, and be proud to say they belong to an Australia wide reptile interest group. While I am guided in all matters regarding this group I would probably not choose the acronym that is had by “Federal Australian Reptile Keepers Association”, but hey it is a democracy.
Thank-you to all who participated in these questions. I felt it was important that as many people as possible saw and participated in the questions, so that you could see how we each think and whether you all thought we are mature enough as a hobby and interest group to undertake the “NEXT STEP”. I will try say a bit more when I have a chance on this forum and also to put something in Scales and Tails Magazine if they allow it that is a bit more tangible than a herp forum about the Australia wide association, but hope you all think about how we can get this up and running as your help will be needed. 
Kind regards
Gavin Bedford


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 22, 2013)

If I can be of benefit somehow Gavin, count me in! Great post Ron - nailed a few things there!

Jamie


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## andynic07 (Aug 22, 2013)

I think one thing that may stop people getting involved will be taxes. I think that there is a lot of people for varying reasons that are not declaring income from snake sales and these people may not want to be involved because if you you push the government too hard they may start chasing their 30 cents.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 22, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I think one thing that may stop people getting involved will be taxes. I think that there is a lot of people for varying reasons that are not declaring income from snake sales and these people may not want to be involved because if you you push the government too hard they may start chasing their 30 cents.



I'd be very surprised if more than a handful of breeders would exceed profits beyond what could be called "hobby income" in this country. By the time you take out costs such as food, heating, time and all the other incidentals, for most the margin would probably be on the debit side of the ledger. 

Jamie


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## andynic07 (Aug 22, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I'd be very surprised if more than a handful of breeders would exceed profits beyond what could be called "hobby income" in this country. By the time you take out costs such as food, heating, time and all the other incidentals, for most the margin would probably be on the debit side of the ledger.
> 
> Jamie



I do not doubt this fact and that is why a lot of people probably don't declare the income but I am sure that these same people would be annoyed if made to jump through these hoops because the government was pushed into something like this. This is only my thoughts that i have and it would be good if some of the small and medium sized "hobby" breeders would comment to gauge their actual thoughts.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 22, 2013)

While the notion has great merit, there are limitations to the parallels with amatuer fishing, as their situation differs markedly from ours. While hopefully achievable, it would certainly be a lot harder to implement and sustain for our hobby. 
I would point out that the nominal $10 mentioned will buy you a single drink at a pub - not a lot of a sacrifice to make if brings real benefits to the hobby.


WA Python Embargo: The importation of pythons into WA is prohibited solely to exclude IBD and therefore eliminate the risk of this disease infecting wild populations. While the department here are aware that it is not overly common they do recognise that the time between infection and onset of symptoms has proven vary variable and is curently known to be up to 12 months. There is no posiive test available for live snakes and the quarantine period is not definitive other than at least 12 months. Even if the required quarantine was definite, the department do have the resources to supervise quarantine of animals for 12 months or longer. I cannot see someone being prepared to fork out a year's plus wages to plus provide the facility, to bring in pythons to WA.


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## Wild~Touch (Aug 23, 2013)

The Greatest of All Mistakes is to do Nothing because you think you can only do a little...........~Zig Ziglar~


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 23, 2013)

With regard to the potential for virus import into WA... the diseases are already there, and whatever they're called now (CALM, DEC...) allows the import of elapids from interstate. Elapids certainly carry some of these viruses (in fact IBD is rather rare I think) - look at the losses at the ARP when they had their outbreak. I think the virus import thing is just an excuse to be restrictive, and especially with the potential for cross-breeding WA endemic pythons with some of the eastern forms. I've never believed the virus matter was more than an excuse.

Jamie


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## wokka (Aug 23, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> With regard to the potential for virus import into WA... the diseases are already there, and whatever they're called now (CALM, DEC...) allows the import of elapids from interstate. Elapids certainly carry some of these viruses (in fact IBD is rather rare I think) - look at the losses at the ARP when they had their outbreak. I think the virus import thing is just an excuse to be restrictive, and especially with the potential for cross-breeding WA endemic pythons with some of the eastern forms. I've never believed the virus matter was more than an excuse.
> 
> Jamie


 Wouldn't it be better to allow legal importation rather than driving any imports under the table. Do the authorities live in fairy land and think that because it cant happen legally if doesnt happen? If there is a genuine consern about disease epidemics it is important to have a co-opertaive hobby rather than driving it underground! A line on a map doesn't stop disease.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 23, 2013)

wokka said:


> Wouldn't it be better to allow legal importation rather than driving any imports under the table. Do the authorities live in fairy land and think that because it cant happen legally if doesnt happen? If there is a genuine consern about disease epidemics it is important to have a co-opertaive hobby rather than driving it underground! A line on a map doesn't stop disease.



Of course it would Wokka, but we're talking WA here . Jackboot legislation is the chosen option over there, logic and cooperation don't enter into it. There is a barrier mentality that exists for nearly all animal & plant species - you'll even have your car thoroughly searched at the border before you're allowed to proceed into WA. Some it is reasonable - they don't have Starlings, Mynahs or Sparrows on the west coast (an eradication process for Starlings near Esperance is in place), and a few of the agricultural pests such as Codlin Moth. The Nullarbor is a natural barrier for some of these things.

An anecdote... I imported a Blue & Gold Macaw into WA about 2004. It had to be photographed at the airport by Ag Dept inspectors, the photo emailed to CALM headquarters for formal ID (in case it was an African Grey in disguise I guess - prohibited species in WA), and then formal approval for release of the bird was emailed to the inspectors... And if it arrived out of working hours, there would be a ~ $400 inspection fee to pay. I believe this is still the case for all non-domestic livestock, including reptiles.

J


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 23, 2013)

IBD is a disease of boids (although Busho notes that it has been known to occur in (Colubridae and Viperidae). I don't know why they only chose IBD and not OPMV (now know to be Sunshine Virus here) as well. As frustrating as it might be for keepers, I personally feel there is due justification.


The argument about allowing legal imports is fallacious. What you are effectively saying is quarantine at borders does not work so why have it? It does work. While it may not be perfect, it is a numbers game and in this case all about reducing exposure to diseased animals. There are illegal collections here now but the owners are aware that people are likely to dob them into the department and so most are kept under wraps. At the same time, for similar reasons, trading of illegal animals is usually clandestine, although you do get the ocassional blatant idiot. 


The department has been so obstructive and difficult to work with in developing the keeping system here, you cannot help but feel jaded at the end of the day and cynical of the motives of anything they do. This I understand only too well.


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## cement (Aug 24, 2013)

To Gavin and Jamie,
what exactly are the issues that need addressing to warrant a federal / national group of affiliated reptile keepers?

I ask in all honesty, as a relocater, I am more interested in "conservation of wild species" then the "hobby" and what the hobby does. 

Can we put aside differences? Interesting question.... for me, where I stand on some certain matters, the answer is a definite NO. Credibility, as mentioned before, is an important concept... it involves the (sometimes difficult to pin point) area of morals.
Which is an area that can be elusive to find within this reptile arena, it's there to a degree....but...


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## Ramsayi (Aug 24, 2013)

cement said:


> I ask in all honesty, as a relocater, I am more interested in "conservation of wild species" then the "hobby" and what the hobby does.



The way I see it is that we already have something to cover your concerns.That is what NPWS should be putting their effort into rather than regulating hobbyists.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 25, 2013)

*Cement*, 
One of the areas Gavin did mention was conservation. That is a huge umbrella that cover a multitude of different activities that vary from setting aside substantial areas of land at a cost of many millions of dollars as conservation reserves to monitoring specific populations to stopping economic projects from happening in order to prevent loss of critical habitat to educating people as to why they should not kill reptiles and how to appropriately deal with unwanted animals... While he deliberately steered clear of specifics at this point, what was stated with emphasis is that this would be a group to work on behalf of its members, to represent and safeguard their needs and best interests and to act on their behalf, particular with respect to requests involving approaching departments and politicians. The bottom line is, if you as a member see a need that needs to be addressed, then you can approach the national body to address it on your behalf. Allow me to provide a fictional example that relates to what you do. The new national curriculum for schools haqs an emphasis on conservation but does not specifically address the situation of snakes in or around domestic dwellings or work places. As member of a national association you could approach the national body about this. They may be able to put together a number of teachers who can produce appropriate teaching resources for varying year levels, which cover what you want and meet the stated objectives within the curriculum. The national body could then approach the federal education minister to have these materials made available and recommended for use, to all school teachers. Alternatively you may wish to tackle educating adults. So you put a request forward for the production of an educational information sheet which can be disseminated through shires to people living in snake prone areas.

Without a national representative body, whether you are a keeper, have commercial interests, are academically interested in herpetology or are conservation oriented with respect to these animals, anything you wish to see happen needs to be done entirely by you, with whatever resources you are personally able to muster. With a national body you have the opportunity to tap into a wealth of resources, experience and capabilities and the potential to be represented in approaching government departments or politicians by a group of individuals that command attention and respect and have the backing of many thousands of members.


"Setting aside our differences" worried me a lot when I first read it. I have come to understand that what it is saying is that we have a diverse collection of individuals with an affiliation to herpetology and that a national body would serve no single interest group within that amalgam. It is about the valuing all its constituents, irrespective of differences in interest, opinions, values or anything else. It is about uniting for a common cause to further the interests of herpetologists. I would add that this definitely includes the likes of doing whatever can be done to assist conservation, as the loss of any species would be a huge loss to Australian herpetology for all that have an interest in it.

Blue


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## ronhalling (Aug 25, 2013)

WTG Blue, even if i had of tried i would not have been able to put it as succinctly or as respectfully as you have just done, it was the perfect scenario to use, i did not go too much into specifics in my blurb for fear of putting 1 side or the other in this equation off side, there is a multitude of people and groups who could and will benifit from a National group from the simplest 1 Rep hobbyist to the biggest breeders all with an equal voice on subjects such as COP's, Conservation, Importation of Reps between States, etc etc. If one was to sit down and work out how many different people and groups could share the umbrella of a National Body it would be staggering, in my humble opinion we would be looking at upwards of 1 mill people......now thats a big voice,  ...........................Ron


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## cement (Aug 25, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> The way I see it is that we already have something to cover your concerns.That is what NPWS should be putting their effort into rather than regulating hobbyists.


yes i agree.

ok, great. Thank you for your efforts blue.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 26, 2013)

Thank you *Cement*. I trust it was helpful.


With respect to the NPWS comment, their present attitudes are not going to change from within. There is an ingrained resistance to any change in bureaucracies, except those which give them more power. It will take a powerful lobby group to bring about sensible change that allows the management of the hobby to be streamlined, thus allowing the allocation of more time and resources into conservation and education. 

Blue


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## alzisman (Aug 30, 2013)

Hi all, 
I am not usually writing anything but this topic is veryimportant to all of us so I was thinking if we can’t create a powerful lobbygroup by ourselves then maybe we should join forces with someone who has, likefor example fishing and shooting party? Or maybe someone else? 
They done very good job with “Keep Australia Fishing”, maybetogether we can do “Keep Australia Breeding” (reptiles), I think it may workbetter to join someone with similar agenda than creating our one from scratch. 
Cheers,
Alex.


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## champagne (Aug 30, 2013)

id be happy to pay membership if it would help by getting stuff like varanus prasinus on license, If the group was aimed towards securing pure locality and rare species, I think a large number of people would join.


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## glebo (Sep 22, 2013)

*Hello All,*
Herpetology in Australia has finally come of age. Each state or territory has a legal keeping system that all can access. Amateurs as well as professionals can now indulge themselves in extended contact with their chosen interest. Australia wide, the herpetological hobby and interest groups, and the industries that support them, both home grown and from overseas, are no longer a sideline. They are mainstream, involving hundreds of thousands of people and millions of dollars of turnover every year. Now that is potentially a force to be reckoned with!
From what I have read, seen and heard from many of you it appears we need or at least would really like to have some reptile interest representation at a Federal level. This would be a body that is taken seriously by Governments and their departments and befits a hobby/industry that incorporates the hundreds of thousands of people of like mind: reptile oriented. 
I have had many herpetological conversations that get onto the problems the hobby/industry is experiencing. I guess it was from the wishful solutions that were vocalised, like: “if only we all...” or “if only all the state/territory departments...” that the seed of an idea was sown. It did seem that the time was ripe to consider establishing a Federal body to represent our collective concerns and interests. The personal feedback I got when I mentioned them to others in conversation was positive enough to warrant taking the next step. 
Rather than jump in feet first, I decided to test the water one toe at time. You can blame that on working too long in the croc-infested north. So I posed a series of five questions (which can be found at the start of the General Discussion page) to illustrate and get people thinking about what a single representative body could do. As the feedback from each of the questions was encouraging, I put the proposal of forming a united Federal representative body out there. The one aspect that I did emphasise in the process was the strength in numbers when lobbying governments or politicians.
From all your feedback the required support to make it happen is definitely there. I thank you all for that (but don’t expect my wife to, as she reckons I work too much anyway). I must apologise for not getting back to people sooner. Rather than being idle (haa haa) or too busy (more likely) a small core of us have been examining the feasibility and long-term viability of such a project. We are very aware that it was tried once before and that it failed. We want to make sure that those mistakes will not be made again and that other potential pitfalls are avoided by having the right structure from the start. Shared responsibility goes a long way to making things involving people work, and to continue to function.
For the reasons just cited, the process of development should be as collaborative as possible. It will not be my (the small band of people working on the idea at them moment) association – it will be yours (everyone who has an interest in reptiles). So we have set up a basic skeleton and we want YOU to put the meat on the bones. For example, we recognise that the states/territories require a structure each that can then tap into the federal body. So we need to work with the states/territories to hone that into a reality. We also recognise that a federal body may not be active in a given state/territory until needed, yet we still need their on-going membership and support. So what does a national body offer you guys that is on-going and more than enough to get you to part with a few dollars each year? 
Rather than go through the various ideas that have gone through my head to date or been sent to me by the many people who want this to happen, let me address it in an open forum at the Ipswich Scales and Tails Expo on the 9[SUP]th[/SUP] of November at the North Ipswich Reserve from 9am to 4pm. I think it is about time we started to get some ideas in the open, that includes both positive and negative feedback, so let me invite you all to the expo to speak with a few of us who will be there to discuss it and get feedback to help make it happen. We cannot do it without you and we need to get it right the first time and be proud of it, if we are going to address any issue regarding reptiles in Australia.
Kind Regards
Gavin Bedford


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## Wild~Touch (Sep 22, 2013)

Will you be speaking in Melbourne and/or Sydney ?

A few of us won't be able to make the November date

Cheers
Sandee


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## glebo (Sep 22, 2013)

Sandee, I would like to get the ball rolling and see how we go, what sort of support and enthusiasm and take it from there. It would be good to visit each state and territory over the course of time so will aim for that, but this is the first step and hope to speak to as many people as possible to start with.
Regards
Gavin


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## Ramsayi (Sep 22, 2013)

glebo said:


> Sandee, I would like to get the ball rolling and see how we go, what sort of support and enthusiasm and take it from there. It would be good to visit each state and territory over the course of time so will aim for that, but this is the first step and hope to speak to as many people as possible to start with.
> Regards
> Gavin



I'm sure the various herp societies around the country would be more than willing to have you speak at their meetings.Societies to my mind would be the very best place to start.


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## azzmilan (Oct 23, 2013)

With the amount of misinformation about captive reptiles, I think it would be best if there's not only just a lisence but a test for each specific animal before you can buy it, that way no one can plead ignorance and everyone would have a certain standard of knowledge when it comes to their own reptiles.


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## RoryBreaker (Oct 23, 2013)

azzmilan said:


> With the amount of misinformation about captive reptiles, I think it would be best if there's not only just a lisence but a test for each specific animal before you can buy it, that way no one can plead ignorance and everyone would have a certain standard of knowledge when it comes to their own reptiles.



Really????

Reptile husbandry is not rocket science. There is a plethora of information available for newbies out there, both online and in some fantastic books. Plenty of naive/dumb/stupid people keep pets of all sorts, why should reptiles be singled out.

The misinformation you talk about ( other than random posts on forums) , where is there an example of it?


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 23, 2013)

azzmilan said:


> With the amount of misinformation about captive reptiles, I think it would be best if there's not only just a lisence but a test for each specific animal before you can buy it, that way no one can plead ignorance and everyone would have a certain standard of knowledge when it comes to their own reptiles.




IMO..Quite correct to a certain degree.. It depends where newbies glean their info. from.

Fancy websites and commercial shopfronts don't always live up to their claims.

You can't go wrong with modern day books authored by Qualified reptile keepers/vets/academics, eg .Geckodans Bookshop

Use your own intelligence and don't expect to be spoon-fed then you and your animals will come out fine.


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## glebo (Dec 24, 2013)

*Sorry to take so long to get back to you all.*

Hi all,

The Scales and Tails Expo, held at Ipswich on the 9[SUP]th[/SUP] November, was utilised as the first public forum to discuss face to face the idea of establishing a national body for our hobby and industry. The unfortunate reality is that the interest shown on the day was insufficient to warrant continued development of the concept. The nature of the venue and its physical discomforts, clearly not foreseen by the organisers, did nothing to encourage attendance. However, while I am grateful to the 20 individuals who attended, in my mind it is insufficient to warrant continued effort with this project. Basically, the interest expressed has been very underwhelming! 

I feel we are left with three choices. 1) Forget the whole deal, 2) give it a second chance now or 3) put it on the back burner with the intention of supplying further information for people who may want to help but are undecided. My passion and belief in what could be achieved have me wanting to make this happen. However, we have no intention of proceeding without a clear mandate that this is what you want, so at this stage option 3 is the go. 

I have opened an email account and am asking you to send an email message to let me know that you are genuine in your support. If you have ideas on what this body should or could do, that would be appreciated as well. I envisage it as being much more than just functioning solely as a lobby group seeking legislative change. Conservation is a major role, along with education, legal support and grass roots facilitation, to name but a few functions that this group could achieve.

Bottom Line: If you believe, as Greg, Jamie, Mike and I do (and a few others of course), that a national body representing our hobby and interests could bring about positive changes that benefit us and the animals we find desirable and increase our potential to be involved with them in a positive way, then I need YOU to tell me that. The emails (and their suggestions) that I receive will indicate whether the project does or does not go ahead or is shelved for a period of time due to us not being ready. It is now up to you...

My email address is [email protected]

Have a great Xmas and I look forward to hearing from you in 2014.

Kind Regards 

Gavin Bedford


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## champagne (Dec 24, 2013)

I wouldn't base the scales and tales expo on support.... I emailed them and sent messages on facebook trying to get times of your talk as I couldn't stay all day at the expo and got no reply. when I was there it was very poorly advertised when and where you would be doing the talk, maybe getting on you tube or other social networks ie reptile radio where you can reach a larger viewer range would help. I think a lot of people still question what this national body wants to achieve. I also think that it should just be done and if it falls flat on its face then at least the people involved can say we tried. Put a list together with problems this national body wants to fix or achieve and it might get more support as people might see something that affects them or something they can benefit from ie no reptile imports but maybe allowing exports this would also increase the dollar value of the hobby therefore getting larger financial support the body will need to survive long term.


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