# no exotics!!



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

so why cant we have exotics snakes as pets and will that ever change?
sorry if this has been asked before


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

It has been asked a million times before.

And no, a million is not an exagerration.

We can't keep them because of the risk to the environment and human safety concerns.

The laws will change when either the risk is reduced to a state whereby the environment is no longer at risk (or the environment no longer exists), or some idiot political party ignores sound judgement and scientific evidence and changes the law to suit themselves.



Hix


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Mainly the risk of them becoming vermin, no, it won't change (but rumours to the contrary will probably never stop, at least in our lifetimes) and yes, it's been asked more times than I've thought about Water Pythons.


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Haha, you got me back, Hix :lol:


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## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

Thats quite unfortunate then isnt it.
now im beggining to understand my friends dream of living in usa


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

I don't think it's unfortunate at all. If exotics were legalised, we'd go the way of USA. Most of what most people would be keeping would be exotics rather than natives, which I personally think would be a great shame. Legalising them would cause a massive increase in the numbers being kept, which in turn would lead to a massive increase in the numbers escaping (take a look around the forums, you'll see countless posts along the lines of "HELP! I wasn't able to prevent my snake escaping!"), which would cause an increase in the chances of us having to deal with new pest species. Look at birds, look at mammals, look at fish. You can walk down to your local pet store and buy exotics in any of those categories. Go for a walk and look at the birds and mammals, or check out our waterways and see what you find... mostly exotics. The same can be said of plants. Exotic reptiles are illegal, go for a walk and see how many exotic reptiles you find in the wild in this country.

I hope things don't change.


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## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

i also dont want our natives to have another animal screwing them up
ie. cane toads
but i would like one or two myself. 
its a tricky situation


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> i also dont want our natives to have another animal screwing them up
> ie. cane toads
> but i would like one or two myself.
> its a tricky situation



Most of us would. 




Sdaji said:


> Haha, you got me back, Hix :lol:



    

Hix


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

No I doubt things will change but that's fine as the reptiles escaping into the wild will be illegal exotics as opposed to legal ones


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## hornet (Jun 11, 2006)

just coz exotics aint legal dont mean you cant have em, people still insist on keeping them, threatning our environment by keeping these animals


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

I'm sorry I understand some people are against them but while it is legal to have cats, dogs, horses, cows, sheep, goats, pigs, Llamas, alpacas, camels, rabbits, guinae pigs, rats, mice, ferrets, etc, etc, etc I can't take the whole environmental threat aspect very seriously. Oh and lets not forget the devastating affects of continued land clearance and unabated growth of towns and cities which causes far greater damage to the environment. 
I'm not saying it is right or wrong to have them but please don't try and have us believe that they are goig to destroy the world as we know it 
I always find it a very interesting subject and I am able to talk about it in a well mannered courteous way.


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## hornet (Jun 11, 2006)

i dont really find the exotics appealing, the only i would ever be interested in would be tortises


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Well thank you sir. :lol: 

A quote from Simon Stones website regarding his survey/albino competition
' What really surprised me was that 62.8% of all entrants said that they would like to keep exotics if it were legal to do so in Australia. '




africancichlidau said:


> That's because you are a well mannered and courteous human being Mr. Boa sir


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## hornet (Jun 11, 2006)

when is that comp drawn?


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

End of August.


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## Magpie (Jun 11, 2006)

I have exotics.
Mice, Thai fighting fish...... i even keep australian herps outside of their local range


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

You do realise this is a fairly open forum don't you ? You never know who could be reading this. ;-)


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## hornet (Jun 11, 2006)

magpie, shame on you lol


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## bigguy (Jun 11, 2006)

I read something on another post a few days ago which made a lot of sense to me.

Just about all Pythons held in the southern states are exotic to those states. Over the years thousands have escaped yet can anyone show even one colony of these escapes that are breeding in the wild.

There are very few examples anywhere in the world where exotic reptiles have become a problem. I can think of Red Eared Sliders here in Australia(where literally thousands were released into a confined environment). Brown tree Snakes in Guam. Burmese pythons in the Everglades(which was nearly a idendical envirnment to where they came from. And a species of Boa that was released on a small island in the Carrabean.

It is only a scaremonger tactic based on 4 species around the world. If you truely believe these animals could pose a risk to the environment then you should also never keep an Australian reptile outside of its home range. There is no difference and to say otherwise makes you a hypocric.

The one and only danger with exotics is the introduction of diseases. But if zoo's can legally import these animal through quarantine, then there should be no difference with the general public if they are prepared to pay for quarantine.


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Bob, you are exactly right and that's exactly what I have been saying for years. It is scaremongering and nothing else. It is ridiculous to comapre say Cane Toads that were deliberately released in viable numbers to become established with the odd escaped reptile native or exotic.
If people are just anti exotuics then fine but don't try and justify that position by telling us that they are a huge threat to the environment because there is absolutely nothing to support that position. 
As I have always said I am in favour of legalising exotics NOT importing them so any perceived disease risk is virtually non existent. Zoos around the country breed a great many exotics every year and they could be sold to experienced keepers and any risks would be far smaller than presently exists where exotics are still apparently flooding into the country.


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> As I have always said I am in favour of legalising exotics NOT importing them ..................
> .....................exotics are still apparently flooding into the country.



I've said it before: legalising exotics will increase the illegal importation into this country, because you will create a legal market for the smuggler to offload his contraband. And you'll also get the collector who wants something few other people have, so species not currently here will be brought in as well to satisfy that demand.

Legalise exotics today (but not importation) and by the end of the year there'll be Jags, Carpondros, Boelens's, Piebald Balls and Borneo Batwings available.



Hix


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## soulweaver (Jun 11, 2006)

I like what Australia has and the way things are now, but i do think that exotics will one day allowed.

Reason being is that they are already here. Seems lately more and more busts are being made and people being caught, but i think for everyone caught another two start up. 

The main reason for keeping exotics out would have to be disease, but if the diseases and exotics are already here then what is being kept out. 

So like i said, i like things the way they are, but i think that import/export will one day happen. Espically with more and more people entering the hobby all the time.


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

But the diseases aren't already here. 



Hix


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

I also like what this country has but I also like reptiles from every other corner of the world. I'm not insular, I just appreciate a nice looking reptile regardless of where it is from. IF there are any diseases then they have been here for a great many years.
The odd bust of half a dozen animals here and there I don't think will have any affect on anything, the serious breeders aren't on the radar and they aren't these drug dealers that get busted with a couple of animals.


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Which diseases aren't here and how do you know ?



Hix said:


> But the diseases aren't already here.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix


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## waruikazi (Jun 11, 2006)

The problem is not that there will be escapees it is more the problem of irrisponsible keepers who decide that they can't keep their 20ft retic or burm or green anaconda any more and release into the wild where we *might* end up with a situation like in the everglades in the US. This type of situation is unlikely in southern states where it is cold and a 20" python would be spotted pretty easily but in the NT, northern queensland and nothern WA it is a much more likely scenario where there is alot of prey for these large pythons and the environment is similar to what they have in their home ranges.

That said i would be the first to own a Ball Python if they were legalised in Aus!


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

The scenario you describe is exactly as it is now, because there are no controls these animals are being kept completely unregulated. As I have said before the situation in the Everglades is VERY different, in Florida these huge snakes were sold in pet shops to anyone with $100, they soon outgrew their cages and were released, the big difference is they were being released in viable numbers which enabled them to breed and flourish in ideal conditions. 
If they were kept by experienced keepers and paid say a $1000 for a permit at least those animals would be controlled, that wouldn't do anything about the huge number of illegal exotics but then again the present situation doesn't address that problem either.


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> The scenario you describe is exactly as it is now, because there are no controls these animals are being kept completely unregulated. As I have said before the situation in the Everglades is VERY different, in Florida these huge snakes were sold in pet shops to anyone with $100, they soon outgrew their cages and were released, the big difference is they were being released in viable numbers which enabled them to breed and flourish in ideal conditions.
> .




But Boa, if exotic become legal, the next thing will be people saying they should be sold in petshops, and before you know it, QLD will be the next Florida.

Matt


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> ...
> The odd bust of half a dozen animals here and there I don't think will have any affect on anything, the serious breeders aren't on the radar and they aren't these drug dealers that get busted with a couple of animals.



but I thought all the exotics breeders were drug dealers too :roll: :twisted:


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Finally, after hinting at it in several exotic threads, someone asks me the correct question (I would have hoped someone would have gone and researched it themselves as I've hinted at where to look too).

Here are the diseases/parasites/microroganisms carried by snakes (not worrying about lizards) that are not presently found in Australia:

Leptospira spp. 
Alphavirus (Eastern equine encephalomyelitis virus (EEEV), Western EEV, Venezuelan EEV)
Japanese encephalitis virus 
Mycoplasma spp.
Adenoviridae (Snake adenovirus)
Gammaretrovirus (Viper retrovirus - formerly reptilian type C oncovirus)
Herpesviridae (Boid herpesvirus I, Elapid herpesvirus I)
Iridovirus (Snake erythrocytic virus)
Ophidian paramyxovirus (Fer de lance virus) 
Ranavirus (Wamena virus)
Reoviridae (Python orthoreovirus, Rattlesnake orthoreovirus) 
Retroviridae (Inclusion Body Disease of Boids) 
Amplicaecum spp. 
Camallanides spp. 
Camallanus spp. from snakes
Dracunculus spp.
Eustrongylides spp.
Gnathostoma spp. 
Hexametra spp.
Kalicephalus spp. 
Macdonaldius spp.
Meteterakis spp.
Ophidascaris spp. 
Paracapillaria spp. 
Physalopterinae (Abbreviata spp., Physaloptera spp., Skrjabinoptera colubri)
Rhabdias spp.
Strongyloides spp.
Terranova caballeroi
Travassosascaris araujoi
Bothridium spp.
Crepidobothrium spp.
Mesocestoides spp.
Oochoristica spp.
Spirometra spp. 
Encyclometra spp.
Neodiplostomum major, N. spathoides, N. [Fibricola] seoulense
Ochetosoma spp.
Pneumatophilus spp.
Pulmovermis cyanovitellosus
Styphlodora spp.
Xenopharynx spp.
Centrorhynchus spp.
Sphaerechinorhynchus spp.
Porocephalidae (Armillifer spp., Kiricephalus spp., Porocephalus spp.)
Amblyomma spp.
Aponomma spp.
Ixodes ricinus
Ornithodoros spp.
Caryospora spp.
Eimeria spp.
Isospora spp.
Sarcocystis spp.
Tyzzeria boae


This list was compiled 4 years ago, since then three or four of the above organisms have been identified in captive collections, none have been found in wild snakes - yet.



Hix


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## waruikazi (Jun 11, 2006)

Boa it is possible that this is happening ATM but i would think that if these animals were legalised (and i'm not saying they shouldn't be) the rate of them being released or lost would be much higher because of the larger number there would be in peoples collections. And if it does cost a million bucks for a permit i think that would put fuel into the black market trade of these snakes.


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

I should also point out that many of those diseases listed above are zoonotic - many other animals can catch them. Some of those listed can be transmitted to humans and can cause death.



Hix


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

I think we all know that would never ever happen even if some people do ask for it, that will never happen.



MattQld83 said:


> But Boa, if exotic become legal, the next thing will be people saying they should be sold in petshops, and before you know it, QLD will be the next Florida.
> 
> Matt


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Hix, yes I have seen the same list on 'Generic Import Risk Analysis (IRA) of Live Snakes'. It doesn't appear to be a list of diseases but rather mostly parasites that I assume may or may not carry a disease capable of affecting reptiles. I understand these aren't restricted to reptiles either ?
I have always been pretty much against importation except from an accepted zoo overseas.


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Many of those parasites _are_ the disease, or cause it.



Hix


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

This is a serious question Hix, not being a parasitologist what risks do they represent ? I mean are they like the snake getting a cold or getting AIDS ?



Hix said:


> Many of those parasites _are_ the disease, or cause it.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

I'm not a parasitologist either, boa. Nor a pathologist.

The virus's, microrganisms and parasites listed above can cause a variety of diseases. Thre problem is, different species have different susceptibilities to the same pathogen. As Australian species have not been exposed to many of them, it's difficult to say how they will be affected although you can make some educated guesses. Most of those afflictions are recorded as affecting snakes and other animals overseas, so it's safe to assume the effects here would be the same or worse. The possiblity of a reptilian AIDS or Ebola is enough for me to say it's not worth it.

The document you saw is still under review. Some of those listed may be removed with further research.

Remember, in years gone by the first missionaries going to South America and Africa wiped out entire villages simply by introducing common - but exotic - diseases like the common cold, and the flu.



Hix


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> But Boa, if exotic become legal, the next thing will be people saying they should be sold in petshops, and before you know it, QLD will be the next Florida.
> 
> Matt





boa said:


> I think we all know that would never ever happen even if some people do ask for it, that will never happen.




Thats a rather bold comment Boa, Why wouldnt it happen?

..


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

I don't think it's very bold at all to be honest, there is only a slim chance experienced private keepers will ever be legally allowed to keep exotics, the chances of them being added to the commercial list is incredibly small.


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

Im confident legal import of exotics wont take place atleast in my lifetime, is it really so important to people to be able to keep the limited number of exotic species already in the country? 

I always have a good laugh when reading "they are already here and being held in large numbers anyway"

Perhaps we should render Heroin legal, its being used already, or better yet illegal fire arms, hey you can buy them on the black market, there is alot available, lets make them legal also. 
Matt


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## Macca (Jun 11, 2006)

Earlier in the thread, someone stated that there is only a few examples of exotics becoming problems in the wild. This is very far from the truth. In Australia alone, we have sliders, asian house geckos and flowerpot blindsnakes all increasing in range. 

In Florida alone, the number is now 48 for species of introduced reptiles. Only, a small number of these are not estabished. Burmese pythons are only the tip of the iceberg. What about the Nile Monitors causing chaos along Cape Corral? Green Iguanas? Numerous species of anoles?

I think you'll find reptiles establishing themselves in many, many countries around the world. In some places with some species, it may not be a problem. To my knowledge Lampropholis delicata (Garden Skink) is not causing too much trouble in NZ. However, a great many species have great pest potential.

Someone also pointed out that there a number of other exotics in the country, why ban reptiles? Many, if not most, exotics in the country have caused massive problems and animal extinctions already. Foxes, cats, dogs, goats, cattle, trout, mosquito fish, carp, toads. Even many of your aquarium fish escapees or releases have now become established in the tropics. I won't even mention invertebrates because the number would greatly exceed Hix's disease and parasite list.


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

Macca said:


> Earlier in the thread, someone stated that there is only a few examples of exotics becoming problems in the wild. This is very far from the truth. In Australia alone, we have sliders, asian house geckos and flowerpot blindsnakes all increasing in range.
> 
> In Florida alone, the number is now 48 for species of introduced reptiles. Only, a small number of these are not estabished. Burmese pythons are only the tip of the iceberg. What about the Nile Monitors causing chaos along Cape Corral? Green Iguanas? Numerous species of anoles?
> 
> ...



Macca,

Your spot on mate, its funny people dribble about there being no problems in Southern states like Victoria with captive animals becoming established with wild populations etc...

Umm...
Queensland and other northern parts of Australia have a much more suitable climate for reptile invaders. 

Also just because we already have feral animals, in the form of mammals and fish... etc

Why add reptiles to the growing list?


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Limited number of species :lol: You need to get out more Matt. :wink: 



MattQld83 said:


> Im confident legal import of exotics wont take place atleast in my lifetime, is it really so important to people to be able to keep the limited number of exotic species already in the country?
> 
> Matt


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

Boa, ive been out dont worry, and ive been offered.

What i mean is "limited" in regards to what we have now, if it became legal at any stage, its not to say that we can import more species.

It would be limited to whats already in the country. unless you think we have it all in Australia already :roll: 

I dont hate exotics, dont get me wrong, i just dont see any advantage in being able to keep them in a legal manner in Australia. 





boa said:


> Limited number of species :lol: You need to get out more Matt. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Macca (Jun 11, 2006)

Hix,

Your argument in terms of a common disease causing large scale problems in animals not from its region of origin is correct. I think the prime example of this is Chytrid fungus in frogs. Won't go into too much detail. Spread to many areas of the globe from Africa, where it causes little problem too the native frogs. It's now thought to be behind the extinction of over one hundred of frog species worldwide in the last twenty years. In Australia, it is thought that it has been responsible for the extinction of eight species, including the sole two species of gastric-brooding frog. There are others that will probably disappear as a result in the next ten to twenty years. Nothing can be done to stop it.

Fortunately in reptiles, a disease of such significance hasn't been identified. Hopefully it doesn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. Diseases evolve in a parasitic relationship with their host in a way that they don't kill the host. Hosts evolve with a level of resistance to these diseases. When introduced to animals that have never been exposed before, you can have instances such as Chytrid. I'm sure back in the sixties when African frog Xenopus laevis, was sent around the world for research and pregnancy tests, they weren't aware they were possibly spreading a disease that would go on to be responsible of this era's largest extinction events.

P.s. I think all reptiles are great, including exotic reptiles. However, the risks to this country, in terms of pest potential and disease, being isolated from other regions for so long proves to great though, to warrant keeping them.

I'll stop long posts now


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## Lurk (Jun 11, 2006)

I think that exotics are impressive....But now I am going to sound like a tree hugging hippy. :roll: I do not think they belong here in our homes or our inviroment I really dont have anything to back this statement up with except maybe the over population of Cane toads,Feral pigs,Rabbits and so on..I know that ppl do keep them and that is there choice to risk that.I myself would not cause I really cannot afford the fine.I have said this before in another thread,What is with human nature ? We all ways want what we cant have and we are never happy with whats in our own backyard.I love Australian wildlife and in my opinion you just cant beat it.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

The discussion so far has presented a lot of very good reasons not to legallise the keeping of exotics. These reasons also appear to be backed up and supported by the scientific community. 

So where are the pro exotic arguments? I cant see anything apart from the self gratification of a small number of people who want to keep them and the financial benefit to those who already keep them illegally. 

So come on fellas, step up to the plate and give us some valid reasons to allow exotics.


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## Lurk (Jun 11, 2006)

CodeRed said:


> So where are the pro exotic arguments? I cant see anything apart from the self gratification of a small number of people who want to keep them and the financial benefit to those who already keep them illegally.
> 
> 
> Good point CodeRed,Where are they? I do not beleive there is much more than self gratification.Ahhh the human race....But I would like to hear some good firm reasons to keep these exotic animals if there are any. :wink:


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## Lurk (Jun 11, 2006)

CodeRed said:


> So where are the pro exotic arguments? I cant see anything apart from the self gratification of a small number of people who want to keep them and the financial benefit to those who already keep them illegally.
> 
> 
> Good point CodeRed,Where are they? I do not beleive there is much more than self gratification.Ahhh the human race....But I would like to hear some good firm reasons to keep these exotic animals if there are any. :wink:


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

It's always funny to see the comparison of natives outside their range and exotics. The fact that carpet pythons haven't established themselves in Melbourne doesn't for a moment mean that corn snakes couldn't either. Carpet Pythons have had access to south eastern Australia for about a zillion years. They have a southern limit enforced by climate. Corn snakes (just one of countless examples) have never had the opportunity to colonise the south east and until they do, we can't predict what will happen. I could go up to northern Australia and catch native fish, let them go down here in Melbourne and none would survive. That didn't stop the majority of our local natives being wiped out by species from overseas. I could let as many cassorawies as I wanted go down here and all would quickly die, but if you look around here, almost every bird is exotic. Looking at the south east is silly anyway as it doesn't have a particularly reptile friendly climate....

East QLD could well be colonised by countless exotic species, which could very well cause extinctions of other reptiles, as well as whatever they eat. Natives outside their range and exotics which have never had access to Australia are completely different and can't be compared.

I always cringe when I read the arguments along the lines of "We've stuffed things up with mammals, birds, fish and plants, why can't we do the same with reptiles?". Surely we should be smart enough to learn from others' mistakes.


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## Magpie (Jun 11, 2006)

> Natives outside their range and exotics which have never had access to Australia are completely different and can't be compared



I disagree there.
Why would any of the northern WA species not be a pest species in North queensland?
Yes, tropical species are unlikely to become a problem in temperate, alpine or mediteranean climates, but not vice versa.
You have to comapre apples to apples. Shinglebacks or bluetongues from south west WA could become established in Vic. As could any of the species from those areas.
Worse, they would pollute the native gene pool so you would never again know what was pure and what wasn't.


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## zulu (Jun 11, 2006)

*re no*

Educational, i like grey kingsnakes that vibrate their tails like rattlesnakes its amazing,dont like the albino candy corns they look like something from an eastershow showbag :wink:


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Magpie yes I agree, it's no good just talking about a species that couldn't survive in a given area because of the climate, what about the majority that could survive well outside their natural range ? Brisbane carpets could survive in FNQ or NT and Jungles could easily survive down here. The same applies to a great many species. 
I do agree with Sdaji when he says this though
' I always cringe when I read the arguments along the lines of "We've stuffed things up with mammals, birds, fish and plants, why can't we do the same with reptiles?". Surely we should be smart enough to learn from others' mistakes.' My argument is always that we shouldn't use the environmental damage threat as a reason against them.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

"My argument is always that we shouldn't use the environmental damage threat as a reason against them."

Why not? It is a perfectly valid argument. Prove to me (well not me personally, but the other 20 million people that live in Oz) that exotics are perfectly safe and wont damage our environment.


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

I can't possibly prove that. The problem is you are just lumping them all in together, there are a great many species that would be of little or no threat and others that COULD be considered a huge threat.


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

What Exotics would you consider to be of little or no threat?





boa said:


> I can't possibly prove that. The problem is you are just lumping them all in together, there are a great many species that would be of little or no threat and others that COULD be considered a huge threat.


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Most land tortoises, many chameleons, various smaller snake species.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

Yes I agree there MAY be safe species. But we thought cane toads were safe, didnt we?

As I alluded to previously, you would have to convince the general population (and politicians) that exotics should be legalised. This would require a bullet prove argument and be of some benefit (as in financial) to the rest of the community.


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> Most land tortoises, many chameleons, various smaller snake species.




So do you consider the following to be a threat?

Boas, Balls, Corns, Burms, Iguanas.

The Above are what i consider to be some of the most commonly kept exotics off licence in Australia. 

Matt


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

What was the financial benefit to the general community for legalising the importation of exotic parrots ? 
I'm not really that bothered one way or another, if they are legalised I will have some if they aren't then I wont. I do like debating it in a mature manner though ;-)


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Boas are a potential threat because of their breeding habits.
Balls, no.
Corns, yes.
Burms yes because of their size
Iguanas, again yes I suppose because of their size but their feeding habits make them less of a threat.



MattQld83 said:


> So do you consider the following to be a threat?
> 
> Boas, Balls, Corns, Burms, Iguanas.
> 
> ...


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Magpie said:


> > Natives outside their range and exotics which have never had access to Australia are completely different and can't be compared
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, there are some exceptions, mostly though, it is a case of upsetting gene pools (you might get Darwin carpets surviving well in Cairns), but the impact is small compared to introducing a new species. Having said that, I think if you're keeping a species within its natural range, you have a very large responsibility to ensure it doesn't escape. Yes, in some cases it might be possible to establish a population of native animals outside their natural range, but the chances are much, much lower and if it does happen, the impact is (generally speaking) going to be much, much lower than an exotic. I think it's fair to say that there is a very big difference between exotics and non indiginous natives, at least 95% of the time and with the remaining 5%, the potential problems are probably about 95% less severe, 95% of the time.

For the reasons you've described, I'd be suspicious about the purity of animals collected near cities.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> What was the financial benefit to the general community for legalising the importation of exotic parrots ?
> I'm not really that bothered one way or another, if they are legalised I will have some if they aren't then I wont. I do like debating it in a mature manner though ;-)



Some politician probably got a kick back ... I didnt say that the financial benefit had to be evenly distributed 

Yes, it is nice to have a debate without the name calling and bitchiness. 

Either way, what ever is said on here isnt going to stop those already smuggling, breeding and selling exotics. They have their own back pockets to look after. Maybe the next topic should be about the leanient sentences given to those caught with exotics.


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> Boas are a potential threat because of their breeding habits.
> Balls, no.
> Corns, yes.
> Burms yes because of their size
> ...



Why are ball pythons not a threat?

Why is a vegetarian less of a threat than a predator? Some of our most damaging vermin is vegetarian. It's difficult for a plant to run away from something which wants to eat it. Plants are an important part of the world too.


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> What was the financial benefit to the general community for legalising the importation of exotic parrots ?
> I'm not really that bothered one way or another, if they are legalised I will have some if they aren't then I wont. I do like debating it in a mature manner though ;-)



The benefit is in votes, and also personal preference. Bird people have a larger voice, because there are more of them. The fact that it is irresponsible to allow people to own cats and exotic birds doesn't matter to a politician, they're interested in votes, not the wellbeing of the natural world. If they have to cause damage to make people happy, so be it, they don't care. Fortunately the reptile people didn't kick up enough fuss early on to make the government decide to win votes by allowing similar damage to the herpetofauna of the country.


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

Perhaps the fact that Balls have small clutch numbers, just beens they will be slower in creating a feral population


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

I don't consider Ball pythons a real threat as they are not an aggresive feeder like say a Burmese Python, they are small and reasonably slow breeders.
I consider iguanas less of a threat because they obviously aren't running around eating native animals and to be honest given the amount of plants they eat they are hardly going to plunge any plants into extinction. I did say they could be considered a threat but less of one ;-)


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## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

I guess it all depends on what you class as a threat, Iguanas are a feral pest in Florida, and i suspect they could become one rather quickly in QLD give the chance. Regardless of what they eat, im not sure how happy they would be sharing the bush with natives.

Matt


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

People only have one baby at a time, but we've managed to have a reasonable impact. Lower clutch sizes means a greater percentage of the offspring will survive. 

Ball pythons are aggressive enough to make a living for themselves in the wild. Rabbits aren't particularly aggressive feeders, neither are carp.

Plants might disagree on the iguana issue, so might the other species which used to feed on the iguana's favourite food plant.


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## moosenoose (Jun 11, 2006)

I think the Exotics would be fine, it's some of the people keeping them that would be the trouble.


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## Lurk (Jun 11, 2006)

I have read all opinions on this debate and so far all I can come up with is it does not matter if it is a bird,mammal or aquatic speices.Why would we as proud Australians do our inviroment any more harm without completly knowing the total damage that any one of these exotic animals can do? There is know way of knowing,So in my opinion the laws should stay in place for the sake of our inviroment and the fantastic wildlife we have.
Not for the sake of human envy


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

:lol: Agreed.



moosenoose said:


> I think the Exotics would be fine, it's some of the people keeping them that would be the trouble.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

moosenoose said:


> I think the Exotics would be fine, it's some of the people keeping them that would be the trouble.



yeah didnt you know, all reptile keepers are tatooed, peirced, ex-con, biker, drug dealing, dole bludgers 8) 









did I leave anyone out? :wink:


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

The only problem with that is that our laws are doing absolutely nothing to stem the tide and the laws are going to have little effect on the environment.



Lurk said:


> So in my opinion the laws should stay in place for the sake of our inviroment and the fantastic wildlife we have.
> Not for the sake of human envy


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## Lurk (Jun 11, 2006)

moosenoose said:


> I think the Exotics would be fine, it's some of the people keeping them that would be the trouble.



Your right it would be some of the ppl keeping that would be trouble and so,Why would we have it so that these ppl are permitted to have exotic animals ?


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## Lurk (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> The only problem with that is that our laws are doing absolutely nothing to stem the tide and the laws are going to have little effect on the environment.
> 
> 
> That is the sad truth but I would not like it open to make matters worse.


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

Actually you are right there, they are having some effect no matter how small that effect is.


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## bigguy (Jun 11, 2006)

What people are failing to realise, there are probably more exotics held and bred in Australia then natives. To say you don't want them here as they MAY cause environmental damage is a joke. They are here and in unbelievable massive numbers for at least the last 10 years. Still waiting for these plagues of exotics breeding across Australia.

Africa, yes the laws are having some effect. There was probably 50 or so exotics seized and destroyed this season. There was even about 18 handed in with the Australian amnesty a few years back. In NSW this year it was estimated some 10, 000 exotics were bred and sold as illegal pets without any control whatsoever.

People can put their heads in the sand all they want and hope the problem goes away. But guess what. They are here now and in numbers you's guys just fail to or refuse to comprehend. Its not going away, only going to increase every year. These animals need to be controled as they are never going to get rid of them.

Just for the record, I am not pro exotic. I have no intention of keeping any(which I can do legally as I am a licenced exhibitor). I am a realist. These animals are here, face it. They will never be seized, so the next best thing is to try to control the problem.


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## NoOne (Jun 11, 2006)

I started a post about this a while ago......i think it's about time they tried to get some control over exotics by licensing them rather than this ineffective system we have now.
I'm not into exotics but i think things need to change, people are more likely to dump illegal animals than legal ones at least a license system will have some control and idea of numbers out there and it would be alot cheaper to run, probably even make money.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Jun 11, 2006)

The fact of the matter is that you will never know just how good a keeper you are unless you succeed in maintaining animals from different parts of the world for extended periods. I find australian reptiles to be extremely hardy and they tolerate many husbandry errors. I just think that some of the more serious keepers are missing out on gaining experience with some of the more fascinating exotic species. I grew up in countries where exotics were allowed to be kept, and I can guarantee you that even the most die hard pro Australian reptile keeper would crumble on their views of these animals. Yes I think Australian laws protect their animals! But I do think that it only drives the market underground and creates a supply and demand situation. Smugglers will still keep offloading their animals for huge prices regardless. I have also heard of some Guys from Sydney being in South Africa a feqw weeks ago buying up everything that moves, from veiled Chameleons, tarantulas to boas. Apparently these animals are quite expensive in Sydney. Please people dont for once think that these exotics are not being kept in vast numbers. From what i heard these guys took back more than 20 animals. Did not see anyone get busted did you?


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## Retic (Jun 11, 2006)

How many times have I used the term 'head stuck in the sand' in the last 2 or 3 years ? 
I don't think you have to be pro exotics to know we need a system that actually works. I am amazed that people on here talk about exotics as if there are 3 or 400 kicking around. No offence to you Africa but what o Earth makes you think that MORE exotics will be released if they are made legal ? 
No-one is calling for the importation of more exotics, what we need is a system of control, not harsher penalties as that hasn't had any beneficial affect on any illegal activity. 
I am pro exotic in so far as we need to do something about them. It''s all very well busting a couple of people with a cornsnake and a few Boas but that's like a grain of sand on the beach. 
I hear all this talk of what legal exotics will do to the environment but seem oblivious to the fact that there are 10's of 1000's of illegal exotics here.


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

bigguy said:


> In NSW this year it was estimated some 10, 000 exotics were bred and sold as illegal pets without any control whatsoever.



Bob,

I'm curious to know where this information comes from, as I imagine it would be hard to quantify something like this that is not recorded.



Hix


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

CodeRed said:


> moosenoose said:
> 
> 
> > I think the Exotics would be fine, it's some of the people keeping them that would be the trouble.
> ...



I don't fit into any of those categories :cry:


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

sorry sdaji, 
feel free to add another category for yourself


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Funny that one arguement used by the pro exotic people is 

"look at the poll! So many people said they would keep exotics if they were legal! So many of them!"

Yet on the other hand they say there are so many here already. I think it's plain as can be that if legalised, the number being kept would increase dramatically and the number of natives being kept would decrease. More being kept means more will escape, you can't deny that.

Many crimes are more common than keeping exotics, we don't control problems like burglary and assult by legalising them, we minimise them by making them illegal.


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> I don't fit into any of those categories :cry:



But you look like you would. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's all about perceptions, not reality.



Hix


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## Nagraj (Jun 11, 2006)

boa said:


> I hear all this talk of what legal exotics will do to the environment but seem oblivious to the fact that there are 10's of 1000's of illegal exotics here.




Evidence please.


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

CodeRed said:


> sorry sdaji,
> feel free to add another category for yourself



You should probably add one for me as I'd use something narcissistic like "possesor of overwhelmingly beautiful hair" :lol: :roll: : 8)  :shock:


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2006)

ok, I'll edit my list 

bummer, wont let me edit it


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

> "possesor of overwhelmingly beautiful hair"




Like the biker in that new Sunsilk shampoo ad?



Hix


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Nah, mine is heaps better than his and I'm not a fat biker


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## Reptile City (Jun 12, 2006)

> bigguy wrote: ?
> 
> In NSW this year it was estimated some 10, 000 exotics were bred and sold as illegal pets without any control whatsoever.



I talk to reptile people all day long at my Reptile shop for years & ive only had one person who has told me that they had a corn snake. 
I dont think there are any where near the numbers Bigguy states, unless they all live near him witch gives bob this impression?
I have read every post on this discussion & I dont think its a good idea to keep exotics in Australia of any kind.
Why not try to fix things then let it go to the total devistation.

NO EXOTICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or Hippies!!!!!!!!

Sadji you need curls, lol

Jason


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## Retic (Jun 12, 2006)

:lol: You can't be that naive ? Of course no-one can give you evidence but anyone who doesn't accept it's a HUGE problem is, as Bob said, sticking their heads in the sand I'm afraid. 
Don't get me wrong, it obviously make no difference to me who believes it or not, just let it go along the way it has for the last 10 years. 



Nagraj said:


> Evidence please.


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## Retic (Jun 12, 2006)

Jason, how many people walk into your shop and tell you they are drug dealers or burglars or carjackers ? :lol: 



ReptileCity said:


> I talk to reptile people all day long at my Reptile shop for years & ive only had one person who has told me that they had a corn snake.
> 
> Jason


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## Nagraj (Jun 12, 2006)

I estimate that the total number of people keeping reptiles in Australia is probably something in the order of 20,000. Of that, a majority would only have 1 or 2 snakes. So let's say 5,000 are keeping larger collections. Of that 5,000 a very small percentage would have access to, and the willingness to risk the loss of their legal collection, to keep exotics illegally.

Where are your "tens of thousands" going to fit?


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## Australis (Jun 12, 2006)

Its a petshop Boa :wink: 

If it was a shop selling crack pipes and bongs, they might mention there drugs habits.



boa said:


> Jason, how many people walk into your shop and tell you they are drug dealers or burglars or carjackers ? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Australis (Jun 12, 2006)

Nagraj said:


> I estimate that the total number of people keeping reptiles in Australia is probably something in the order of 20,000. Of that, a majority would only have 1 or 2 snakes. So let's say 5,000 are keeping larger collections. Of that 5,000 a very small percentage would have access to, and the willingness to risk the loss of their legal collection, to keep exotics illegally.
> 
> Where are your "tens of thousands" going to fit?



Im not going to hazard a guess on the number of exotics kept off licence in Oz.

But i have been offered Exotics in the past, and been told by people they can get "anything".

The problem is big, i have no doubt at all, i just think making it legal isnt the correct course of action.

Matt


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## da_donkey (Jun 12, 2006)

I agree with Boa and Bigguy.......If you belive anything else on this matter you are kidding yourself


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## Hickson (Jun 12, 2006)

Nagraj said:


> I estimate that the total number of people keeping reptiles in Australia is probably something in the order of 20,000. Of that, a majority would only have 1 or 2 snakes. So let's say 5,000 are keeping larger collections. Of that 5,000 a very small percentage would have access to, and the willingness to risk the loss of their legal collection, to keep exotics illegally.
> 
> Where are your "tens of thousands" going to fit?



I hate to disagree with someone who has the same views as I do, but those numbers are underestimates.

NSW has more than 9,500 licensed reptile keepers, and as SA and Vic have been able to keep reptiles for much longer than NSW, I'd say there's close to that number - if not more - in each of those States. And that's just people holding them legally. There are people who have no license and have exotics, so they aren't risking their collection by having the exotics, their collection is at risk anyway as they have no license.

However, if there are 10,000 exotics being bred in NSW in the past year, then I, too, would like to know what is happening to them all. The market in NSW cannot support a glut like that.



Hix


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## Retic (Jun 12, 2006)

Exactly right, the 'problem' is huge. The people breeding large numbers of exotics ARE NOT licensed keepers so they don't even enter into the equation. 



da_donkey said:


> I agree with Boa and Bigguy.......If you belive anything else on this matter you are kidding yourself


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## CodeRed (Jun 12, 2006)

Hix said:


> However, if there are 10,000 exotics being bred in NSW in the past year, then I, too, would like to know what is happening to them all. The market in NSW cannot support a glut like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix



The sale of all those exotics is taking money away from the legitimate breeder. Its definetely in the interests of legitimate breeders to get rid of the exotics. Or then again if you cant beat them, you can join them 8)


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## Retic (Jun 12, 2006)

It doesn't in any way take money away from legitimate breeders, if someone wants a Ball python that is what they buy.


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## CodeRed (Jun 12, 2006)

Nah it does actually. If they cant get a ball python, coz its illegal, then they get a native instead.


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## Retic (Jun 12, 2006)

OK


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## Lurk (Jun 12, 2006)

I have noticed that a couple of people have said that it should be permitted and that if the goverment is aware of those with permits to keep than we will be more on top of things.But as said by somebody else if this were to happen there is more of a chance for these animals to be released/escaped into our native inviroment.Please excuse me for jumping off track a bit but should we just axe all laws? I have heard drug users have the same point ,that heoine should be legal.Please we have these laws for a reason even if some do think they are doing little,they are doing something.
I am not ignorant to exotics in Australia ,but as said before those people can take the risk. I will not.


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## Nagraj (Jun 13, 2006)

Hix said:


> I hate to disagree with someone who has the same views as I do, but those numbers are underestimates.




My figures might be somewhat inaccurate but I'm sure my overall premise is correct.


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