# Calico ? Coastal Carpet Python



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

I have had a few questions and a lot of requests for pics, so took a few today while her new enclosure is being prepped.
So is it a true Calico? well dunno! She has a hypo type of thing going on (very freaky eyes) but it is unsure as to if it is part of the make up of the calico aspects. There appears to be white under all her scales so after a feed it becomes extremely prominent. The pattern from the belly is straight white and tends to go to white with black and brown flecking slowly forming more of a (fragmented) pattern as it reaches the back. The grandmother had a lot more white throughout the body. So what is it that makes me think she is Calico? . . . There is nothing that describes all that is going on with her pattern any better than the broad definition with Calico's, although she does have a marbled look. All going well I will be breeding her this season with the Anery Coastal, should have some interesting results


----------



## Ezmay (Apr 29, 2012)

beautiful!!!! she is amazing


----------



## waruikazi (Apr 29, 2012)

I stopped posting in morph threads a long time ago when OP's didn't like the answers i gave them. Fortunately the craze of naming any and every pattern died away somewhat over the last couple years.

To enter your discussion about whether it is a calico or not. To me there is absolutely nothing calico about that snake in comparison to any other reptile morph that has been defined as calico. If you can prove out whatever you think is different about it, then yeah name the morph calico and then it will be a calico. That is if it is a morph/mutation that can be inherited in a predictable way. And just to throw a spanner in the works, a few years ago that snake would have been called a hypo and god help anyone who disagreed because hypo just means reduced black apparently.

Personally i would call that snake nothing more than a nice coastal. Which it is, absolutely, if that is what you are into. Let the animal's quality or genetics speak for itself, they don't need names.


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Apr 29, 2012)

Gordon is spot on...

Kam, ive seen you post a few times now and you fail to understand that a genetic trait is just that.
GENETIC and needs to be proven. Not just label a python because you think its looks like a genetic morph.
The pics you posted just look like a normal coastal.
And whats this with a anery coastal. ??
Just because because a coastal is grey coloured does not mean its anery or axanthic.
You actually need to prove the mode of inheritance. Thus proving the trait is genetic.

Unless you have proof and photos showing what your talking about and then confirming the mode of inheritance etc .

Cheers
Roger


----------



## Frozenmouse (Apr 29, 2012)

Amen


----------



## Origamislice (Apr 29, 2012)

the best way to check if this a genetic trait is to breed her with a normal looking carpet, if the offspring look like that then it could be either dominent or co-dominent. if this happens then a way to check wether if it's co-dom. is to breed the offspring that look like that with each other, if 25% are normal 50% are like that and 25% look completly different then it's co-dominent...

if all the offspring look normal then it could be recesive, if this happens breed the offspring together and then if some of these offspring turn out like that then it's recesive.

if the offspring look like a blend between the two parents then it's not genetic (there is no particular gene responsible).

this entire process will probably take 4-5 years at a minimum but is the only way to prove if its genetic.


----------



## Wrightpython (Apr 29, 2012)

Just name it what you like and charge what you like when you breed. Name it something exotic like reduced pattern hypo xanthic calico albinohet coastal and charge [email protected]#t loads for the hatchies. But prove it first breed for multiple gens and show results to prove its genetic.


----------



## hugsta (Apr 29, 2012)

I have bred a number of coastals that look the same as the one pictured, all have turned out to be beautiful coastals, but just coastals. 

Roger summed it up nicely, you need to proove the mode of inheritence before you can slap a name on it.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Gordon is spot on...
> 
> Kam, ive seen you post a few times now and you fail to understand that a genetic trait is just that.
> GENETIC and needs to be proven. Not just label a python because you think its looks like a genetic morph.
> ...



Sure, just the response that I was expecting, there seems to be some very predictable behavior here. I have failed to understand nothing. Yes she does look a lot like a standard hypo and if I had not seen the grandmother I would have still thought there was something there. I struggled for 2 years to grasp what was going on with her pattern and having owned a few hypo's in the past I knew there was something so much more. i have done a substantial amount of study on the Calico gene and have seen it's extremes from the smallest amount of white on it's flanking to an almost white snake with flecks and broken pattern. Was I just looking at jumping on the Morph bandwagon or maybe I have had an interest in this field for a number of years with a lot of research (kept herps since I could walk, turn 40 this year). And while every one with an opinion is going to jump on here and proudly announce I am wrong with little insight as to the snakes history maybe I at least have given a bit of thought into this. I at no point claimed she was in fact a Calico I did say it was the closest thing I could use to describe her. She has a melanin reduction throughout with white stretching into her pattern and while not prominent it occurs across her body and as stated earlier freaky white eyes.
Anyone that sees her agrees there is something more than Hypo. As for inheritable I have seen her Grandmother and she was owned by a non morph collector but she had alot more white with small patches and flecking. I will be breeding her this year to see but as the Calico in most species is recessive it will be some time before we know for certain. As for the Anery this is available to another debate but no i did not call it that out of wishful thinking. For Morphs to be discovered we dont need till wait for the Europeans or the states discover it, what we need is to work together to pull our collective minds together and start to look at what we can discover with our natives. How many morphs will go (and prob has been) unnoticed because it didnt fit into the already defined labels that we have. How easy would it have been to overlook the zebra morph? How did Southern X discover the so called Caramel morph. . just looks like a Hypo. If you discovered a new morph would you recognise it? I have a lot to say on this subject but I will only have to repeat myself after the next lot of angry and condescending posts so Ill wait


----------



## citrus (Apr 29, 2012)

Mate there alot of grey coastals around that aren't anery or axanthic and since larks proved his line out there are a few people now trying to claim they also have them. To me it looks like a nice coastal but until it's reproduced it's all speculation on what it is. You said we don't know the history of the animal so please tell us. How many snakes display the same trait in each clutch from each generation? Grandmothers sibs? Parents sibs and her sibs? Also did you get one of her brothers? If you did you should breed them back together and see what results you get.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

citrus said:


> Mate there alot of grey coastals around that aren't anery or axanthic and since larks proved his line out there are few people now trying to claim they also have them. To me it looks like a nice coastal but until it's reproduced it's all speculation on what it is. You said we don't know the history of the animal so please tell us. How many snakes display the same trait in each clutch from generation


 
im at a loss to your jumping onto "what he said".and you did not make sense as no one said this is an axanthic nor have I heard no claims for Anery besides for my own (not in this thread). Go back read my previous post. Think, make sure what you have to say is credible. . . then type. Do not just repeat what you thought they said:facepalm:


----------



## citrus (Apr 29, 2012)

I was commenting on why people are calling you out about the grey carpets you have that you said are anery but not provided any info or proof other then a photo of a grey coastal. Mate if you are trying to start a fight it won't be with me sorry


----------



## jinjajoe (Apr 29, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> Sure, just the response that I was expecting, there seems to be some very predictable behavior here. I have failed to understand nothing. Yes she does look a lot like a standard hypo and if I had not seen the grandmother I would have still thought there was something there. I struggled for 2 years to grasp what was going on with her pattern and having owned a few hypo's in the past I knew there was something so much more. i have done a substantial amount of study on the Calico gene and have seen it's extremes from the smallest amount of white on it's flanking to an almost white snake with flecks and broken pattern. Was I just looking at jumping on the Morph bandwagon or maybe I have had an interest in this field for a number of years with a lot of research (kept herps since I could walk, turn 40 this year). And while every one with an opinion is going to jump on here and proudly announce I am wrong with little insight as to the snakes history maybe I at least have given a bit of thought into this. I at no point claimed she was in fact a Calico I did say it was the closest thing I could use to describe her. She has a melanin reduction throughout with white stretching into her pattern and while not prominent it occurs across her body and as stated earlier freaky white eyes.
> Anyone that sees her agrees there is something more than Hypo. As for inheritable I have seen her Grandmother and she was owned by a non morph collector but she had alot more white with small patches and flecking. I will be breeding her this year to see but as the Calico in most species is recessive it will be some time before we know for certain. As for the Anery this is available to another debate but no i did not call it that out of wishful thinking. For Morphs to be discovered we dont need till wait for the Europeans or the states discover it, what we need is to work together to pull our collective minds together and start to look at what we can discover with our natives. How many morphs will go (and prob has been) unnoticed because it didnt fit into the already defined labels that we have. How easy would it have been to overlook the zebra morph? How did Southern X discover the so called Caramel morph. . just looks like a Hypo. If you discovered a new morph would you recognise it? I have a lot to say on this subject but I will only have to repeat myself after the next lot of angry and condescending posts so Ill wait



you obviously never digested Jungle Freaks & Waruikazi initial posts....... it has nothing to do with what is happening overseas more just a basic protocol with breeding any kind of animal ie you have to prove the mode of inheritance over a couple or 3 generations at least before you label...... simple as...... do you have the parents ???????


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

citrus said:


> I was commenting on why people are calling you out about the grey carpets you have that you said are angry but not provided any info or proof other then a photo of a grey coastal. Mate if you are trying to start a fight it won't be with me sorry



No if I was starting a fight I would have told you straight - you and me at the shelter sheds after school, it's ON. No one besides roger commented on the Anery's and seeings as you pm'd me for more pics as you had "a few projects going" you should know that only 1 is partly grey and both have blue and aqua pigment (a common traight in Anery's. Any who i guess you wont be presenting the results of your projects for a while or are ya gonna do it safe . . . and just do Jags



jinjajoe said:


> you obviously never digested Jungle Freaks & Waruikazi initial posts....... it has nothing to do with what is happening overseas more just a basic protocol with breeding any kind of animal ie you have to prove the mode of inheritance over a couple or 3 generations at least before you label...... simple as...... do you have the parents ???????


 Yup I did! And i responded with I didnt claim she was Calico. Instead of being a discussion leading to a conclusion based on peoples opinion on said discussion it became an instant "dismissal". I made mention that it would be some time to prove it and as I am not trying to make money from it I feel the response seemed a little light triggered. I acknowledge (as previous mentioned) that these things would need to be proven, this would also allow one to see how this trait (if there is one) might manifest itself in different animals giving a better understanding of what it is and how it can be defined.


----------



## jinjajoe (Apr 29, 2012)

that is just the point...... name after the work is done not before as after the work is done you'll probably find your initial name is not accurate anyway....... 

I simply see a mediocre hypo....... 

this reminds me of that banana pied BHP thread......


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

jinjajoe said:


> that is just the point...... name after the work is done not before as after the work is done you'll probably find your initial name is not accurate anyway.......
> ......



hence the title Calico ? .

Yes my first name might be way off, like seems to be acceptable elsewhere is to speculate and then see if it proves out otherwise we would just be waiting on someone to tell us what it is. I would like to move forward in the morph area so personally I am interested to see and discuss new "possible" morphs. So maybe instead of getting upset as soon as someone doesn't follow scientific protocol (and yes obviously I knew I hadnt. . ) if it isn't proven try rational discussion and possibly speculate if it is an unknown. . . .did I mention the threads title "Calico?


----------



## waruikazi (Apr 29, 2012)

No one has said that it _isn't _some kind of morph. Roger and Hugstas' posts didn't read angry or condascending to me and that certaintly wasn't the tone of my post. Your response is the exact reason alot of people no longer comment in threads like this, you have already decided what you want to hear and you have become defensive when you didn't hear it. 

You did ask the question if we thought the snake was calico. All the evidence you have given us is a few pictures of a young snake and an anecdote that the grandmother looks the same (which is hardly suprising, most snakes do look something like one of the parents). But based on the looks of that snake the three of us think that it isn't calico, looks nothing like a calico and needs to be proven out before you can claim it to be any kind of morph. Once/if you prove it you can call it whatever you want. 

I think you are doing yourself a disservice by naming it anything. It is a great looking coastal, that speaks for itself. Why would it need a label? Especially when it hasn't been proven?



Kam333 said:


> Sure, just the response that I was expecting, there seems to be some very predictable behavior here. I have failed to understand nothing. Yes she does look a lot like a standard hypo and if I had not seen the grandmother I would have still thought there was something there. I struggled for 2 years to grasp what was going on with her pattern and having owned a few hypo's in the past I knew there was something so much more. i have done a substantial amount of study on the Calico gene and have seen it's extremes from the smallest amount of white on it's flanking to an almost white snake with flecks and broken pattern. Was I just looking at jumping on the Morph bandwagon or maybe I have had an interest in this field for a number of years with a lot of research (kept herps since I could walk, turn 40 this year). And while every one with an opinion is going to jump on here and proudly announce I am wrong with little insight as to the snakes history maybe I at least have given a bit of thought into this. I at no point claimed she was in fact a Calico I did say it was the closest thing I could use to describe her. She has a melanin reduction throughout with white stretching into her pattern and while not prominent it occurs across her body and as stated earlier freaky white eyes.
> Anyone that sees her agrees there is something more than Hypo. As for inheritable I have seen her Grandmother and she was owned by a non morph collector but she had alot more white with small patches and flecking. I will be breeding her this year to see but as the Calico in most species is recessive it will be some time before we know for certain. As for the Anery this is available to another debate but no i did not call it that out of wishful thinking. For Morphs to be discovered we dont need till wait for the Europeans or the states discover it, what we need is to work together to pull our collective minds together and start to look at what we can discover with our natives. How many morphs will go (and prob has been) unnoticed because it didnt fit into the already defined labels that we have. How easy would it have been to overlook the zebra morph? How did Southern X discover the so called Caramel morph. . just looks like a Hypo. If you discovered a new morph would you recognise it? I have a lot to say on this subject but I will only have to repeat myself after the next lot of angry and condescending posts so Ill wait


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> No one has said that it _isn't _some kind of morph. Roger and Hugstas' posts didn't read angry or condascending to me and that certaintly wasn't the tone of my post. Your response is the exact reason alot of people no longer comment in threads like this, you have already decided what you want to hear and you have become defensive when you didn't hear it.
> 
> You did ask the question if we thought the snake was calico. All the evidence you have given us is a few pictures of a young snake and an anecdote that the grandmother looks the same (which is hardly suprising, most snakes do look something like one of the parents). But based on the looks of that snake the three of us think that it isn't calico, looks nothing like a calico and needs to be proven out before you can claim it to be any kind of morph. Once/if you prove it you can call it whatever you want.
> 
> I think you are doing yourself a disservice by naming it anything. It is a great looking coastal, that speaks for itself. Why would it need a label? Especially when it hasn't been proven?



I must clarify that I was not refering to Roger or Hugstas' posts when I made mention of angry and condescending posts that was in reference to the direction these threads go in. Peoples opinions are more than welcome assuming that I am saying one thing when I was clearly saying "I dunno" and responding on the assumption is not conducive to growth.

All I wanted was to have a discussion and hear other people assumptions based on there explained reasoning.

As for a Label, If you have an idea what you might think it is then you have an idea what you are working with and what is the best course of action. i doubt it is a Calico in the classic sense but I have seen a couple of retics that looked similar and were labeled Calico. otherwise I am happy to call it smiley.


----------



## waruikazi (Apr 29, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> I must clarify that I was not refering to Roger or Hugstas' posts when I made mention of angry and condescending posts that was in reference to the direction these threads go in. Peoples opinions are more than welcome assuming that I am saying one thing when I was clearly saying "I dunno" and responding on the assumption is not conducive to growth.
> 
> All I wanted was to have a discussion and hear other people assumptions based on there explained reasoning.
> 
> As for a Label, If you have an idea what you might think it is then you have an idea what you are working with and what is the best course of action. i doubt it is a Calico in the classic sense but I have seen a couple of retics that looked similar and were labeled Calico. otherwise I am happy to call it smiley.



If you are going to name it then name it something that it resembles, otherwise you are opening yourself up for criticism. But names really don't define an animal, especially now that you can just show people pictures of the animals you think are interesting.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> If you are going to name it then name it something that it resembles, otherwise you are opening yourself up for criticism. But names really don't define an animal, especially now that you can just show people pictures of the animals you think are interesting.



Calico was chosen not because I was looking for a name but because I saw pre mentioned Retics that had the same look to their pattern. 
I guess the final point is I'm up for discussion on what it might be, what I think it might be and what might be available. If anyone wants to discuss this or show what they have cool. But please read what I have written previously so we dont get caught on the merry go round arguments that destroy the learning process


----------



## Jason (Apr 29, 2012)

Calico... haha we can all dream. Definitely a nice looking coastal. I have to agree with what was said above in that a couple years ago it would have been labeled a low quality hypo. I'm not trying to be an ***, I'm just calling it as it is.

On a side note, SXR didn't 'discover' the Caramel morph, it was 'discovered' overseas and took a plane ride over the big blue with the Jags.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

Jason said:


> Calico... haha we can all dream. Definitely a nice looking coastal. I have to agree with what was said above in that a couple years ago it would have been labeled a low quality hypo. I'm not trying to be an ***, I'm just calling it as it is.
> 
> On a side note, SXR didn't 'discover' the Caramel morph, it was 'discovered' overseas and took a plane ride over the big blue with the Jags.



When I first saw it I though it was just a hypo, I wanted to buy a diamond of him but something made me stop and have another look. After some discussion I saw the grandmother which he described as scruffy she had a lot more white with the same creepy eyes. I ended up with here cause I like different and over the last couple of years she has started to get a lot more white flecks coming through. So it will be some time before I know it is inheritable for sure. As for caramels. . just looks Hypo


----------



## citrus (Apr 29, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> No if I was starting a fight I would have told you straight - you and me at the shelter sheds after school, it's ON. No one besides roger commented on the Anery's and seeings as you pm'd me for more pics as you had "a few projects going" you should know that only 1 is partly grey and both have blue and aqua pigment (a common traight in Anery's. Any who i guess you wont be presenting the results of your projects for a while or are ya gonna do it safe . . . and just do Jags]
> 
> Yes I did pm you after more "anery" photos but just like your "calicos" you refuse to share any real information apart from a photo. And I don't own any jags but please explain if I did how it would be " doing it safe"? Even if you have a jag that is sightly different it would still take generations to prove it out, or didn't you google that bit?


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 29, 2012)

citrus said:


> Kam333 said:
> 
> 
> > No if I was starting a fight I would have told you straight - you and me at the shelter sheds after school, it's ON. No one besides roger commented on the Anery's and seeings as you pm'd me for more pics as you had "a few projects going" you should know that only 1 is partly grey and both have blue and aqua pigment (a common traight in Anery's. Any who i guess you wont be presenting the results of your projects for a while or are ya gonna do it safe . . . and just do Jags]
> ...


----------



## citrus (Apr 29, 2012)

You ask people's opinion but still won't provide any information about the line. Youre more worried about having a go at people that ask question so why post? And the reason I asked for more photos of the "calico" is because I couldnt see why it was a calico, when it looks like a normal coastal


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 30, 2012)

I find it very interesting to read these threads to hear peoples opinions & find out more about some of the potential colours out there, it is very interesting.
Personally i believe that there is possibly more colour morphs out there than what some might think to believe.
Just because someone has not bought someones line of whatever snake they coined the phrase does not mean that one could not come up with that colour in thier breeding as it is possible to produce the same thing with the right snakes.
However as others have said, the genetics need to be proven to be able to say for sure that is what they are, otherwise they are just another nice snake. I have been through this myself.
As with new colour morphs, i believe that we have only just starded. As someone mentioned the Banana Pied BHPs who says that they don't exist, they just have to be refined & the genetics proven. There is a lot out there yet to be discovered.

It apears to me that when you have proven the genetics it seems acceptable to call them whatever you like.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## pythrulz (Apr 30, 2012)

From the pictures you posted looks as though you have a hypo coastal there are several different colour/pattern varients nice looking coastal though


----------



## scorps (Apr 30, 2012)

What everyone is trying to say is that this possibly isn't the best time for anyone to tell you it's calico or not...

Go and breed this animal to the male you have lined up, grow up several hatches, put one back over your coastal, grow up them babies, that should keep you busy for several years.

Then come back on here with all the evidence and then you will get a lot more accurate response.

May not be what you want to hear but let's at least hope you react better then you did with this thread when it comes to hearing news you don't want to believe.

Alot of breeders believe they have something special and everyone does, some produce some really nice new morphs and others just get some great pets which is special to them but not technically anything special in the morph snake would.

Unfortuantly it appears although your coastal may be a great pet it isn't a new morph as myself and a lot of members in this hobby have seen coastal carpets with a lot more white and signs of calico development then your animal, the owners of these snakes jut know its how some coastals look and don't think anything of it.

As I said try breeding you may get lucky, but it doesn't look like it at the moment.

Beethoven had his crytics, see if you can name three of them...

Good luck


----------



## turtle (Apr 30, 2012)

Sorry mate but as someone else said a low quality hypo. I personally wouldn't even call it a hypo. Take some time and look at some of true blue's hypos or gozz's and you should realize what's what.

Very nice looking coastal btw

Dan


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 30, 2012)

Without wanting to start an arguement, i also believe that there is/can be different shades/colour hypos.
Some more hypo than others & depending on the genetics can be super form.

But hey i might be out of my depth here, i am still trying to learn all this myself.
Personally i don't want to say what type of snake it is Kam333, i reckon it is a Coastal though.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 30, 2012)

It seems to me that as I read through this thread I am seeing a pattern. So maybe to put a stop to the cycle we re-cap and clarify :?

Firstly is this a proven morph? - no and no I do not think it is a Calico in the classic sense. 
Yes it does have a hypo like appearance, but the reduction in melanin is not all that is going on, it's an overall reduction in pigment. No I am not comparing to Hypo's, this is not a Hypo thread.
Yes I do have a reason to call it a calico. After seeing a wide variation in Calico's including a retic that was Calico and had a similar hypo like pattern. What I am seeing is hard to show in photo's and needs to be seen in person. The only way to describe it is that each scale has a reduction in all pigment some scales more than others including in it's eyes. Calico manifests itself differently even widely within the same species.
Do I have a reason to believe it is reproducible? yes I have seen the grandparent that displayed the same traits but by no means do I think that is sufficient proof. I have not concluded any outcome for this project as we can only wait and see.
Can I prove it? can only wait and see after the next few seasons.
Am I aware of the different modes of genetic inheritance? obviously or I would have been wasting my time.

There seems to be some standard behaviour formats when it comes to forums just like in this thread.
person A posts something.
person B responds.
person A responds
a number of others state the same as person B
Person A repeats what was already said to person B
then it turns into a merry go round with eventually someone telling the OP they are being defensive.


----------



## Australis (Apr 30, 2012)

Maybe you could post a photo of a calico retic you think it holds some resemblance to.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 30, 2012)

Kam333 what i would suggest is that if you know a person that you can trust with the apropriate knowledge on this sort of stuff, send them some really good photos & maybe even show the snake in the flesh. If you are able to get photos of the grandparents this may help.

It can be hard to get real informative response on a public forum, you asked the question & got the response.
I cannot help you other than what i said or piont you towards someone who might give an honest opinion, but without trying to breed the trait further it would be hard to say it is one thing or another. 
I hope this helps

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Frozenmouse (Apr 30, 2012)

These are the only true calico snakes i know of in Australia.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 30, 2012)

Australis said:


> Maybe you could post a photo of a calico retic you think it holds some resemblance to.



Best thing said yet!

I dont have time to search the internet for the original pics but I did a quick look and these were the first to pop up. What you see going on in these pics appears to be an extreme version of what i have seen in mine. naturally seeing what i have in the flesh makes it easier.


----------



## turtle (Apr 30, 2012)

+1



Australis said:


> Maybe you could post a photo of a calico retic you think it holds some resemblance to.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 30, 2012)

turtle said:


> +1



You must been posting at the same as I, but here is a couple more


----------



## citrus (Apr 30, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> Can I prove it? can only wait and see after the next few seasons.



They fact that you think you are going to prove it out in a few seasons and not a few generations shows you have no idea. It would take atleast three generations to prove out.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 30, 2012)

citrus said:


> They fact that you think you are going to prove it out in a few seasons and not a few generations shows you have no idea. It would take atleast three generations to prove out.



Is this turning into a mine is bigger than yours. . . cause obviously mines bigger.

what you are doing is being unnecessarily pedantic. A few is more than one and could imply many, not to mention Calico's dont reveal the gene until maturity. Be constructive in your comments, dont just look for ways to try and belittle me. Comment on the pics or add some intelligent insight into the complex biochemistry that manifests itself as the "calico" gene.


----------



## citrus (Apr 30, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> Is this turning into a mine is bigger than yours. . . cause obviously mines bigger.
> 
> what you are doing is being unnecessarily pedantic. A few is more than one and could imply many, not to mention Calico's dont reveal the gene until maturity. Be constructive in your comments, dont just look for ways to try and belittle me. Comment on the pics or add some intelligent insight into the complex biochemistry that manifests itself as the "calico" gene.



Alot of people have given you intelligent insight and asked for more info but you refuse to listen. It is not calico it's a NORMAL coastal that alot of people have seen before the coastal you have is hypo with peppering and some striping. But looking at your album on your profile you have a nack at naming normal looking animals as some new morph.


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 30, 2012)

citrus said:


> Alot of people have given you intelligent insight and asked for more info but you refuse to listen. It is not calico it's a NORMAL coastal that alot of people have seen before the coastal you have is hypo with peppering and some striping. But looking at your album on your profile you have a nack at naming normal looking animals as some new morph.



I am so considerate that I have answered all the points you made in my previous responses. Now all you have to do is go back and read them. Is that you that keeps looking at my profile? . . . creepy:|


----------



## citrus (Apr 30, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> I am so considerate that I have answered all the points you made in my previous responses. Now all you have to do is go back and read them. Is that you that keeps looking at my profile? . . . creepy:|



Where did you post the % of the "calico" morph in each clutch from each generation? You have provided no info on the line apart from a photo of the "calico" and saying the grandmother looked similar. 

Motley? Rp jungle Spider morph?


----------



## Camo (Apr 30, 2012)

God help the future of australian python genetics.


----------



## Cotter (Apr 30, 2012)

This is better then BATTLE SHIP.... more popcorn


----------



## citrus (Apr 30, 2012)

The guy brought it off had the first dam which he breed to get the parents and then breed them to get your "calico" but there's no information on the % from the line? I'm following no one mate I was asking for more photos as I dont see why its calico. And like I said you have a nack for naming normal looking animals so good for you keep googling mate


----------



## KaotikJezta (Apr 30, 2012)

citrus said:


> Where did you post the % of the "calico" morph in each clutch from each generation? You have provided no info on the line apart from a photo of the "calico" and saying the grandmother looked similar.
> 
> Motley? Rp jungle Spider morph?



This whole thread reminds me of an earlier post of yours where you claimed a new morph but supplied no photos after saying you would PM them to people. Is that why your on the attack. I have no clue what it is or isn't but it is a very pretty snake.


----------



## Scleropages (Apr 30, 2012)

Awesome looking Calico.


----------



## Nes88c (Apr 30, 2012)

I have no experience with any of this but, i find it very educational to look at these threads...

can i say though.... i do not see the "calico" u describe in the picture of your coastal, compared to the photos you provided of the other photos you provided later... 
is it possible for you to post up another photo, maybe one that is of good light and resolution (i have no idea, just trying to learn) 

I do think that it looks like a coastal... but as i said i am not experienced at all and i would like to learn more.
thanks =)


----------



## turtle (Apr 30, 2012)

Kam333, 
I seriously give you credit for handling this situation. I would of given up a few pages ago. 
I don't want to be harsh but the pic of your coastal is a really attractive looking coastal, nothing more and nothing less. If that's the look you your after if you breed it then that's all good.
You just need to understand that some people including myself that have expressed their views to you regarding your animal have been working on certain morphs for 10+ years and believe me I'm still trying with some of my breeders from 10 years ago with the hope that I will find the right combination one day. I have some crazy looking coastals but until I prove them out, their just funky looking coastals. Nothing more and nothing less.

Chur,
Dan


----------



## Echiopsis (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's mine, nice eh?


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 30, 2012)

turtle said:


> Kam333,
> I seriously give you credit for handling this situation. I would of given up a few pages ago.
> I don't want to be harsh but the pic of your coastal is a really attractive looking coastal, nothing more and nothing less. If that's the look you your after if you breed it then that's all good.
> You just need to understand that some people including myself that have expressed their views to you regarding your animal have been working on certain morphs for 10+ years and believe me I'm still trying with some of my breeders from 10 years ago with the hope that I will find the right combination one day. I have some crazy looking coastals but until I prove them out, their just funky looking coastals. Nothing more and nothing less.
> ...



Yeah I could have given up but I feel I have an obligation to our readers. Mate I knew what I was getting into when I posted this. I dont place any importance on this snake but I find it interesting that she does have an interesting pigment reduction going on. I have a few projects going over the last few years that are along way from complete and have had a few (like yourself) that have turned out to be nothing. The purpose of my post was to promote discussion and therefore growth of knowledge. Without these discussion I would not have known of the anomalies discovered in some MD's.


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm stoked, I've just found out I have an anerythristic calico coastal! Now, I was going to breed her this seasson but I am now prepared to let her go for the right price. Offers starting a 6 figures kids, genuine buyers only.


----------



## jinjajoe (Apr 30, 2012)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> I'm stoked, I've just found out I have an anerythristic calico coastal! Now, I was going to breed her this seasson but I am now prepared to let her go for the right price. Offers starting a 6 figures kids, genuine buyers only.



I sold you that for $200 aswell..... I'm gonna top myself...


----------



## Kam333 (Apr 30, 2012)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> I'm stoked, I've just found out I have an anerythristic calico coastal! Now, I was going to breed her this seasson but I am now prepared to let her go for the right price. Offers starting a 6 figures kids, genuine buyers only.



Unfortunately it is comments like these that brings negativity to the morph side of the Hobby. But thats ok cause I learned on this very forum that in a few years all normals will be worth the big$$$ just like they were a few years ago i just need to give them interesting locales.
Considering how much i have spent if I was in it for the cash I have a bad business plan.


----------



## citrus (Apr 30, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> This whole thread reminds me of an earlier post of yours where you claimed a new morph but supplied no photos after saying you would PM them to people. Is that why your on the attack. I have no clue what it is or isn't but it is a very pretty snake.



Mate I clearly stated it was still unproven in that thread. I provided information on % of offspring that I was given and I have shown people I trust photos of the snake and a couple of people of it in the flesh. So I don't know what your getting at?


----------



## KaotikJezta (Apr 30, 2012)

citrus said:


> Mate I clearly stated it was still unproven in that thread. I provided information on % of offspring that I was given and I have shown people I trust photos of the snake and a couple of people of it in the flesh. So I don't know what your getting at?



What I'm getting at is you didn't like being called out in that thread and now your doing the same thing to someone else.


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Apr 30, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> Unfortunately it is comments like these that brings negativity to the morph side of the Hobby. But thats ok cause I learned on this very forum that in a few years all normals will be worth the big$$$ just like they were a few years ago i just need to give them interesting locales.
> Considering how much i have spent if I was in it for the cash I have a bad business plan.



Yes, comments like that are destoying the hobby. Funny part is I bought one off Joe that looks just like that, maybe a bit less black. So no, just following along with the program, calling it something it's not. I mean, I was happy calling it a hypo coastal, which it is, but if I can rename it without bothering to put in the years of hard yakka required produce new morphs, well, there ya have it. Like I said, 6 figures. Sorry Joe, bad business on your part but I'll buy you a Happy Meal when I get her sold.


----------



## citrus (Apr 30, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> What I'm getting at is you didn't like being called out in that thread and now your doing the same thing to someone else.



Yes but I was willing to provide all the information on % of the line and where it was at as far as proving it out! alot of hard work goes into new morphs..... I asked for more info as did other people?


----------



## boxhead1990 (Apr 30, 2012)

no offence but i pulled a similarly coloured one out of someones roof not long ago and it was over 2.4 meters long and tryed to eat me


----------



## hrafna (Apr 30, 2012)

OMG!!!!!!! i have an md that differs ever so slightly from another md i own. it must be a new morph. woohoo, i am going to get rich!


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

hrafna said:


> OMG!!!!!!! i have an md that differs ever so slightly from another md i own. it must be a new morph. woohoo, i am going to get rich!



Oh your the guy who claimed my striped MD was a jungle hybrid. . . :lol: . which I think would look cool (or very ugly), but no it is just an MD
You obviously missed the fact that someone had already came up with the get rich gag a couple of posts back. If you feel the need to be sarcastic at least be original.

Some people need things to be explained and I will usually oblige but then there are some that just wont get it.


----------



## saximus (May 1, 2012)

What is calico? My friend Google isn't being my friend today. I'm seeing lots of pictures of Balls and Retics but I can't really see what it is about them that they all have in common. 
Sorry for going slightly off track, I'm just curious.


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

citrus said:


> Yes but I was willing to provide all the information on % of the line and where it was at as far as proving it out! alot of hard work goes into new morphs..... I asked for more info as did other people?



The prob is I stated on more than one occasion that it isnt proven. . . otherwise there would not have been a ? after the Calico. Sooooooo there are nooooo % to post.
All details had been provided the first sensible question was from australis who asked to see pics of my Calico referance. You were nagging me for more pics before this thread. You even specifically asked me for more on the Calico saying you found her to be very interesting. You apparently had projects going and was going to send me pics, which you had not. Awww jeesh and I thought we was gonna be Buddy's
While I am not willing to post pics or talk about all my projects (like many others on here) Im at least willing to post something of a "maybe, possibly or maybe not". A lot of people are mentioning they have either owned one or had their face ripped of by one but at least there is discussion all I have from you is that you want statistics. . . and whats with the google ref all the time?



saximus said:


> What is calico? My friend Google isn't being my friend today. I'm seeing lots of pictures of Balls and Retics but I can't really see what it is about them that they all have in common.
> Sorry for going slightly off track, I'm just curious.



Kind of a M Jackson. It manifests itself differently even within the same sp, Some have a patch/patches of white along the edging of the belly, some have random fading of pigment sometimes forming white patches (like MJ), broken patches throughout their pattern often looking hypo and the extremes can look like a Paradox albino while some may only have a small amount of white tipping making it hard to recognise. It takes till maturity to develop visually (like MJ) and the mode of inheritance is a little sketchy but is thought to be recessive. There is no predictable outcome as a Calico clutch will be a mix bag of results


----------



## Nes88c (May 1, 2012)

I'm not quite sure you argue with everyone on here? You asked for their opinion?? :s

Also in regards to the person on here who was asking for pictures and saying very interesting... Maybe he was trying to get more information off you and find pictures to describe this "calico" you say is happening?? 

I don't understand why you would post this thread as you say with a ? And not accept ppls opinions? It confuses me.

And although I have no experience with any of this. From what you have described as calico, the pictures of the balls and other pythons, compared to yours show no similarities... 
Sorry, I love your carpet, it's georgeous, and I love the eyes. Put please stop arguing with ppl who state their opinion, or ask for evidence. As you have stated in the name calico?. Many people will ask for proof.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 1, 2012)

The Saga goes on, just breed with the bloody thing back to mum/dad, brother/sister & see what you get & then maybe someone might have some reasonable suggestions.
I hope it all goes well.

Cheers
Ian

Hey i had some snakes here that i could not get a proper awnser from many that i asked, except for the advice of future genetic breeding. This is the only way to bring out & prove a trait if you think your animal/s have it.
I gave(well we did swap a few) these snakes to a friend of mine who has a lot more knowledge on the genetic breeding than i do. He even showed others with many years experience & knowledge & they would or could not awnser the qstns asked without saying that it is a possibility, but you have to do future breeding to prove it. He will breed these snakes over the next season or two & maybe then we might know what we may have got.

Other than buying the snakes with the traits that you want, it can be many years of fun & trials & dissapiontments in trying to prove or breed or a different trait.
I could show you some projects, but they mean bugger all because they are not proven yet, even in the snakes that i have got it is only a shown trait or exception & not proven, so it means bugger all.

Cheers again.


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

Nes88c said:


> I'm not quite sure you argue with everyone on here? You asked for their opinion?? :s
> 
> Also in regards to the person on here who was asking for pictures and saying very interesting... Maybe he was trying to get more information off you and find pictures to describe this "calico" you say is happening??
> 
> ...



Please read this response carefully

I have already re-capped but here it is again

Discussion on said snake. . great
Getting upset as it is a "maybe, maybe not" not great. it is called speculating. 
As for Citrus. . .he has made more of an effort to belittle me than be constructive. He was all buddy with me wanting pics and info then decides to join the chores of the angry Mob (lynch him, lynch him) on this thread. He has asked me constantly for non existent data and as was made clear that is not available. ie- not proven.
Do I care if this is a Calico, Cotton, rayon or Latte? no not really. If you want to call it Hypo fine. This is about discussion. That is why ? is used in the title. So I am happy if you think its a poopy head.
Do I think responding to comments as defensive? or argumentative no, by the very nature of responding you could be accused of being defensive. I was hoping that more questions would be asked on my reasoning for "calico" not being told I know nothing and effectively dismissed. I have responded reasonably well despite having to repeat myself several times.
So far I have learned that one should not put there hand up in class, lest they want spit balls thrown at them. It appears that even Morph collectors are divided. i like many of you have spent a fortune on my critters and I too have worked on a few projects that turned into nothing more than variation. But just cause I put in effort behind the scenes does not mean I should be afraid to throw an anomaly out there and speculate on it. This is not jumping the to the front of the line, I still have to do the hard yards to prove it to be anything. If it is to hard to leave our ego's at the door then what is the point.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 1, 2012)

Hey Kam just breed it OR get ready for the Spitballs, mate thats just the way it is.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> Hey Kam just breed it OR get ready for the Spitballs, mate thats just the way it is.
> 
> Cheers
> Ian



Thank you Ian 

I got me a nice red raincoat.

It is gonna be a while before I have any solid info.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 1, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> Thank you Ian
> 
> I got me a nice red raincoat.
> 
> It is gonna be a while before I have any solid info.



That is the spirit now!

Cheers


----------



## citrus (May 1, 2012)

Ok I was asking for more photo because as I said before I couldn't see where you are getting calico from? I didn't join the mob mate you just don't want to listen.

You keep saying there's no % but if the grandmother looked the same then this animal is atleast third generation so there would be info available. So because you dont understand I'll explain it.....
In the first clutch that the grandmorther came from how many animal displayed the same "calico" look? 
Was she breed back to her brother or a unrelated snake? And from that pairing how many snakes displayed the "calico" look?
Did the parents of "your calico" display the "calico" look and were the related?
And from the clutch " your calico" came from how many displayed the same look?
Now if the guy had the grandmother, he would have three generations of info and this is what I've been asking for since before you even posted this thread.


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

citrus said:


> Ok I was asking for more photo because as I said before I couldn't see where you are getting calico from? I didn't join the mob mate you just don't want to listen.
> 
> You keep saying there's no % but if the grandmother looked the same then this animal is atleast third generation so there would be info available. So because you dont understand I'll explain it.....
> In the first clutch that the grandmorther came from how many animal displayed the same "calico" look?
> ...



All the info I got was the grandmother was wild caught and he had not paid much mind to her "scruffy appearance". I thought the 2 sibs were a funky looking hypo and did not think to far into it. I only started thinking more about it when I saw a caliuco retic with a similar hypo thing going on. Then I started to think there might be something more and as the old guy was your typical grumpy old fashioned keeper I hadnt asked him much then and I sure as poop arent gonna hassle him now.
I'm not trying to convince anybody and I certainly could not give a poop about recognition or prestige so I never entered into this other than to speculate with the information I had. Instead I was met with cynicism and accusation.. I never argued against peoples opinions of what it might be as that was the point . . to speculate. Instead I was put in a position where I was expected to answer random comments, the same obvious statements - several times over and over confident arrogance. If I did not respond imagine the reaction but then if I respond the merry go round starts with the final call of "defensive".

Oh and Citrus, you know how the pic request went down. . .


----------



## citrus (May 1, 2012)

*What are you on about*

What are you on about?


citrus said:


> that calico looks pretty cool do you have anymore photos? what stage are you at with the project, how many do you have? also would love to see the solid black python what type is it?
> 
> 
> Kam333 said:
> ...


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

citrus said:


> What are you on about?



I dunno? what are you on about?


----------



## citrus (May 1, 2012)

I will be updating my album today and over the next week i will post some up there when I have some more*

do you have anymore photos of the calico? very interesting

The blotched is the sibling to the anery and as you can see is nothing like it.
The calico is due to shed so hard to see any good details but as you can see the pigment seems to be fragmented throughout, she also has wicked eyes. Interestingly she was a twin. Her Grandmother had a great deal more white throughout.

So please explain how the pms went down!!!
This is the email so please explain your comments? You keep making out that I agreed it's was a calico and changed my mind because of the mob as you can see that's not true


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

citrus said:


> I will be updating my album today and over the next week i will post some up there when I have some more*
> 
> do you have anymore photos of the calico? very interesting
> 
> ...



You've lost me? But I hope you just copied and paste and didnt re-type it all

I did notice you changed the txt from the original "that calico looks pretty cool do you have anymore photos?" to the non quoted txt of "do you have anymore photos of the calico? very interesting"

Hmmm. very interesting


----------



## hrafna (May 1, 2012)

well sorry but your "md" clearly has a yellow to it. striping is generally a polymorphic trait so where are the animals that you have line bred to get this new "morph"? the only true striped md is overseas as far as i know.


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

hrafna said:


> well sorry but your "md" clearly has a yellow to it. striping is generally a polymorphic trait so where are the animals that you have line bred to get this new "morph"? the only true striped md is overseas as far as i know.



Sooo I cant see the Yellow if anything she is now more a dirty grey..
I did not and do not line breed :shock:. I bought her as is. Apparently the whole clutch was striped and came from Normal looking parents that were acquired from SX reptiles.
The mode of inheritance for striping is not 100% known as there is more than 1 type and possibly at least 1 is recessive. So guess what . . . we will have to wait and see8).
As for hybrid i think we need a app to down load that allows us to play this goes with that. I want a Strawberry morelia milkshake . . I wonder what combo I'll need for that


----------



## citrus (May 1, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> You've lost me? But I hope you just copied and paste and didnt re-type it all
> 
> I did notice you changed the txt from the original "that calico looks pretty cool do you have anymore photos?" to the non quoted txt of "do you have anymore photos of the calico? very interesting"
> 
> Hmmm. very interesting



Might want to double check mate I just removed the email addresses and your number it word for word it reads backwards tho the you sent the third paragraph then I sent the second and than you the first. So what are you on about?

As for the google comment, it's pretty clear that all your infmation come from google searches and not any really experience


----------



## turtle (May 1, 2012)

To get back on topic, there is so little known about the genetics of calico animals that many doubt that it is even genetic at all. 
Blackheaded pythons are a classic example.

Dan


----------



## Jungle_Freak (May 1, 2012)

*The variation in the hypo trait .*




Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Above is 3 siblings aged at 5 months showing how variable the hypo trait can be etc ..

Cameron , i believe the flecking or peppering look is highly variable within the hypo trait.
You describe your hypo coastal as a calico look ,but to me and a lot of others it just looks like a hypo coastal . This is why your getting these responces . etc 

Im keen to see this anery coastal you have ? Any pics ?
cheers
Roger


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

turtle said:


> To get back on topic, there is so little known about the genetics of calico animals that many doubt that it is even genetic at all.
> Blackheaded pythons are a classic example.
> 
> Dan



Agreed Dan, it was a hard subject to study and from what I understand there has not been anyrRetic het to het pairing that have resulted in Sibs displaying calico traits,. . .(disclaimer) I could be wrong


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (May 1, 2012)

Following Roger's train of thought, here are a couple more hypos

This one does not have a solid black scale on her body:








This is one of Rob's hypo's, never in a million years would you refer to it as calico, only a *beep*hot hypo.


----------



## Jungle_Freak (May 1, 2012)

Also to me and many others , this is what a calico carpet python may look like. Obviously this is a paradox albino but the pattern is very calico looking.etc 
Pic taken from thread below .





http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/paradox-albino-darwin-carpets-176222/


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Roger

i agree with the Hypo's and the variations. . I owned a stunning peppered snake that appeared like chocolate sprinkle ice cream.

My reasoning was this snake has a pigment deficiency that causes a washed out effect that is impossible to photograph. It is also hard to say if the white on the flanks are part of what would have been her unaltered pattern or if it is part of the hypo aspect. I have plenty of coastal's with a lot more white just not in such a disjointed fashion. . . the only way to describe it would be to say that she was white paper and the inkjet printer was faulty. . . . 
I will pm you some pics and details of the Anery's.


----------



## Jungle_Freak (May 1, 2012)

Aaron thats a cracker hypo. ...

I look forward to that pic and PM Cameron.

Heres a adult carrying the hypo trait. But i would not call is calico looking. She does have a full white belly and as she ages the yellow is fading and revealing the whitr creamie colours under the yellow pigment. But i would not describe her as a calico look etc.


----------



## citrus (May 1, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> the only way to describe it would be to say that she was white paper and the inkjet printer was faulty....



That's golden :facepalm:


----------



## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Aaron thats a cracker hypo. ...
> 
> I look forward to that pic and PM Cameron.
> 
> Heres a adult carrying the hypo trait. But i would not call is calico looking. She does have a full white belly and as she ages the yellow is fading and revealing the whitr creamie colours under the yellow pigment. But i would not describe her as a calico look etc.



That is nice



.

It even has the funny degenerating pigment in the face . . . . I have a couple that that. 
What you showed as a Calico is obviously a Paradox but I agree that the extreme examples of calico retics can look like that. 
on the other end of that spectrum are snakes that by all accounts are normal with a minute splash of white, sometimes to the point of it being unnoticed.


----------



## Jungle_Freak (May 1, 2012)

Cameron as hypos age they change drastically .
Heres some more progression pics of the the adult hypo above..
Here she is at about 8 months old.




Here at 2 years old.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 3, 2012)

Some nice snakes there guys.
Kam333 there is a lot that i agree with you, but not about the calico yet? & please don't flame me just my opinion.

I reckon that we have only just scraped the surface of genetic morphs here yet, now not talking about jags or intermediates or any thing like that. Look at the albino & marbled ants as an example. It is only a matter of time until breeders pick up different traits in thier breeding & then further produce that trait with line breeding or whatever you want to call it.
Allready talking snows,axanthics,sun glows & look at the marbles.

Imagine pieds,pearls,lavander,ocelletos or however you spell it,albino pearls wouldn't that be something. What about lavander pearl albino, can that happen? Anyway i know bugger all about it but i hope that i am here to see some of these.
It is only a matter of time in my opinion as a lot are striving for that something different to provide the hobbyist. & all can be pure animals just with the colour trait bred into them.

OK now i am ready for a shafting.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Kam333 (May 3, 2012)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> Some nice snakes there guys.
> Kam333 there is a lot that i agree with you, but not about the calico yet? & please don't flame me just my opinion.
> 
> I reckon that we have only just scraped the surface of genetic morphs here yet, now not talking about jags or intermediates or any thing like that. Look at the albino & marbled ants as an example. It is only a matter of time until breeders pick up different traits in thier breeding & then further produce that trait with line breeding or whatever you want to call it.
> ...



Ian, turn around bend over and brace your self. . . it wont hurt to much .

due to running out of time (yes I really do have to get back to work) I wont be posting on here to much. (it's ok citrus I'll still pm you)
So I guess now discussion is happening on the subject I will explain my thoughts on this whole Calico idea. 
So firstly I understand everyones thinking about the Hypos. . . they were around before the morph craze, have even own a few and was lucky enough to live were the local population was predominantly Hypo. 
Calico's in any species is a complex and unknown if not even to a large degree unproven. I have read and discussed many theories as to how it manifests itself but there are additional probs like needing to wait till maturity to see if it is present. In Ball pythons it usually displays as some white along the flanks of a normal looking snake. This can range from a white dot to covering the full length along the edge.

Yes this actually considered a calico.



and the variations go on endlessly (kinda like this thread)

Retics display it from as little as nothing more than fading patches

with variations between snakes,

Then it becomes more Hypo



to the extreme of this resembling the paradox albino carpet that roger showed 




So as we see there is no definites and no real way to gauge this morph . Which brings me to the point I started this thread as I feel a lot (not all put down the ballistics) of Morph collectors are not considering that there are things going on that we might be missing. I think this threads reaction only reinforces that belief. Instead of quickly dismissing me it might pay to ask me why in my right mind I would think the snake I posted could be a Calico.
I will stress the word might and I will also stress it is used in the broadest sense possible. From word go I made mention that I used the term Calico as it has a few things going a bit different to your standard Hypo. 
If you look at the great variation between species then it would not be hard to speculate that in the Carpet python (which we have not seen) it could manifest itself in any manner that we have seen or then again it might be different again. So she is hard to photo and without to seeing her it is hard to see what Im seeing but here is a go.




The whole matter is trivial and it is not a high possibility but there may be something more.
I will hopefully be breeding her this year, it will not be to her brother as I no longer have him. I dont expect to have any answers for a while but I will say if it turns out to be something great if not she's still a wicked looking snake.


----------



## Vixen (May 3, 2012)

The last two photo's look alot like the same kind of patterning my bredli boy has - I have no idea how to describe it, but wouldn't really call it calico.


----------



## Kam333 (May 3, 2012)

Vixen said:


> The last two photo's look alot like the same kind of patterning my bredli boy has - I have no idea how to describe it, but wouldn't really call it calico.



No I wouldnt call it Calico either but it is interesting you might be able to do something with it.


----------



## citrus (May 3, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> due to running out of time (yes I really do have to get back to work) I wont be posting on here to much. (it's ok citrus I'll still pm you)


 you really are infatuated with me arent you. :shock: creepy


----------



## Kam333 (May 4, 2012)

citrus said:


> you really are infatuated with me arent you. :shock: creepy



Someone has to care, You reminded me of a lost puppy in need of attention.


----------



## Goth-Girl (May 4, 2012)

Well I think She is Gorgous!!:lol:!! Calico Hypo what ever she is a Stunner!!!!!
Wish I had Her!!


----------



## Kam333 (May 4, 2012)

Coastal-Love said:


> Well I think She is Gorgous!!:lol:!! Calico Hypo what ever she is a Stunner!!!!!
> Wish I had Her!!



Dont tell her that she already has a massive ego . . . .


----------



## Frozenmouse (May 7, 2012)

Vixen said:


> The last two photo's look alot like the same kind of patterning my bredli boy has - I have no idea how to describe it, but wouldn't really call it calico.


Have you bred this morph yet i like very much


----------



## Poggle (May 8, 2012)

Unfortunatley some exprerienced keepers have offered their advice and now it has turned into one of those "blah blah" , "NO, blah blah" threads. I would hosestly listen to the likes of Roger, he is very experienced with morphs. But if you want to find out as much as you can on carpet morphs i would pm Larks or morelia magic.


----------



## NCHERPS (May 23, 2012)

hugsta said:


> I have bred a number of coastals that look the same as the one pictured, all have turned out to be beautiful coastals, but just coastals.
> 
> Roger summed it up nicely, you need to proove the mode of inheritence before you can slap a name on it.



I was going to say that I have seen some carpets of yours that look like that Darren.
Sometimes pattern anomalies can be put down to temp fluctuations when incubating, if it is actually something different and a inheritable condition then as others have said it needs to be proved out by breeding.
Nice looking carpet whatever it turns out to be


----------



## Rissi (May 23, 2012)

this is stressful to read, snakes are snakes and thats a pretty one, call it a screwball n id still pay good money for it.


----------



## Kam333 (May 23, 2012)

Rissi said:


> this is stressful to read, snakes are snakes and thats a pretty one, call it a screwball n id still pay good money for it.



Yes it is . . . very stressfull :? If it proves out to be anything i might call it just that, Screwball has a nice sound to it.


----------



## Herpaderpa (May 27, 2012)

This post is pretty funny  I do have to say, some of the experienced keepers did get a bit of the attack on. But that is part of their charm, that newbies really should learn to just accept, smile and nod and not let it cut them too deep. <3

For what it is worth Kam... I DO see what you mean. I DO see the parts you are talking about and I saw them right from the beginning. People are just focusing on her broken/limited black markings. You really should have specified from the beginning that was not what made her special. Her beige very clearly has a dramatic colour variation, especially over the mid dorsal region. It looks faded out, asthough she has been ever so slightly bleached. Am I right?


----------



## Rissi (May 31, 2012)

I'm glad to see my educated thoughts and opinions are being taken on board haha


----------



## ssssmithy (May 31, 2012)

so many name tag's being thrown around lately 
couldnt be bothered reading the replies, the first page was enough constructive criticism lol 
i see this snake as nothing more then a hypo carpet similar to mine.....


----------



## Kam333 (May 31, 2012)

ssssmithy said:


> so many name tag's being thrown around lately
> couldnt be bothered reading the replies, the first page was enough constructive criticism lol
> i see this snake as nothing more then a hypo carpet similar to mine.....



While I see a nice snake. . I think it is way off from the one I posted. It might pay if you can so be bothered to go through this tedious thread to get a better idea before posting comments. I am sure this thread only went as long as it did due to half read or skimming before posting.


----------



## ssssmithy (May 31, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> While I see a nice snake. . I think it is way off from the one I posted. It might pay if you can so be bothered to go through this tedious thread to get a better idea before posting comments. I am sure this thread only went as long as it did due to half read or skimming before posting.



haha and i think you need some educating on morph's and genetic's champ. ive now read the whole thread, no need to get defensive buddy everyones entitled to their opinion even when its not feasible


----------



## Kam333 (May 31, 2012)

ssssmithy said:


> haha and i think you need some educating on morph's and genetic's champ. ive now read the whole thread, no need to get defensive buddy everyones entitled to their opinion even when its not feasible



And I thought you said you read the whole thread. . . and no I was not being defensive I just dont want to bother with the merry go round arguments, and if it starts then you might wake the hoards and then they multiply


----------



## saximus (May 31, 2012)

lol and so begins round 2...


----------



## ssssmithy (May 31, 2012)

its just silly that people put genetic name tags on animals that arent nearly proven.
especially calicos, ive worked with many "calico" bhp's its not known/proven to be a recessive trait, it take 2years minimum for the snake to turn cal. and in other sp. like cal ball pythons and retics etc its even more the opposite to whats displayed on that carpet.
not getting into a debate champ, just put the hard work in and cross it back to its siblings/father and see what happens i guess then if there is anything there think up a name that suits whatever trait your looking for.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 31, 2012)

saximus said:


> lol and so begins round 2...



Please don't start round 2, I am sick of all the anti this & anti that. I have sworn that i should not even post this brief statement.
Cheers
Ian


----------



## Kam333 (May 31, 2012)

ssssmithy said:


> its just silly that people put genetic name tags on animals that arent nearly proven.
> especially calicos, ive worked with many "calico" bhp's its not known/proven to be a recessive trait, it take 2years minimum for the snake to turn cal. and in other sp. like cal ball pythons and retics etc its even more the opposite to whats displayed on that carpet.
> not getting into a debate champ, just put the hard work in and cross it back to its siblings/father and see what happens i guess then if there is anything there think up a name that suits whatever trait your looking for.



While we are avoiding a debate, you have just reiterated what has been said before and if you had read my comments you will see I have on more than one occasion acknowledged and expanded on those points while stating I never claimed it to be a Calico per se


----------



## bellany (May 31, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> I have had a few questions and a lot of requests for pics, so took a few today while her new enclosure is being prepped.
> *So is it a true Calico? well dunno!* She has a hypo type of thing going on (very freaky eyes) *but it is unsure as to if it is part of the make up of the calico aspects. *There appears to be white under all her scales so after a feed it becomes extremely prominent. The pattern from the belly is straight white and tends to go to white with black and brown flecking slowly forming more of a (fragmented) pattern as it reaches the back. The grandmother had a lot more white throughout the body. So what is it that makes *me think* she is Calico? . . . There is nothing that describes all that is going on with her pattern any better than the broad definition with Calico's, although she does have a marbled look. All going well I will be breeding her this season with the Anery Coastal, should have some interesting results



Yeah i can't remember when u said it was a calico, just that you were thinking soo....... only constructive thing i have to add is that after a bag or two of marshmallows i have a prominent white belly too lol


----------



## Killer_rabbit (May 31, 2012)

i have a Question what does it really matter if its a calico or not. is it that you would just like to know because its a really strange pattern or that you would like to have your name to having the first one. i myself barely understand basic morphs so i could not say any more than its a beautiful snake and if it does have hatchlings that turn out similar or better i would love one.


----------



## Kam333 (May 31, 2012)

Killer_rabbit said:


> i have a Question what does it really matter if its a calico or not. is it that you would just like to know because its a really strange pattern or that you would like to have your name to having the first one. i myself barely understand basic morphs so i could not say any more than its a beautiful snake and if it does have hatchlings that turn out similar or better i would love one.



Well Mr Nefarious carrot munching Rodent, That is a good point. . . it doesnt matter what we call it, this thread was to encourage some speculation and the choice of Calico for a name was based on Calico being a very broad in definition Morph. Personally I think Screwball works. . . so really call it what you wish


----------



## citrus (May 31, 2012)

What about a poor quality hypo coastal...


----------



## Kam333 (Jun 1, 2012)

citrus said:


> What about a poor quality hypo coastal...



Keep digging. . . I think you have had more posts in this one thread than anybody else and yet nothing intelligent.

I saw your so called project ? Inconsistent story, not clear on what it is you are doing, no evidence to back up your assumptions etc etc. . . but instead of burning you to a cinder I let it be. Why because it is pointless !! 

For such a poor Hypo I have been offered some seriously good money for her, I would be inclined to wait out future breeding before
carrying on like you have been. What is seen in the flesh is hard to reproduce in pictures although Derper herper (whom app is only 13) understood what I was referring to (nice to see) . While I have speculated I haven't assumed unlike others whom assumed it is just a Hypo etc. . . yet all the examples have done is shown me a lot of pretty Hypos. . . no washed out pigment just snakes with reduced black.

And as an after thought it was pointed out to me that retics that display the calico gene tend to be HYPO, unlike the Ball pythons or BHP's. So like seems to be said a lot from many who called out Hypo, maybe wait and see if anything proves out. . . . and I really dont give a rats sphincter what you call it


----------



## citrus (Jun 1, 2012)

Kam333 said:


> I saw your so called project ? Inconsistent story, not clear on what it is you are doing, no evidence to back up your assumptions etc etc. . . but instead of burning you to a cinder I let it be. Why because it is pointless !!*
> 
> For such a poor Hypo I have been offered some seriously good money for her, I would be inclined to wait out future breeding before
> carrying on like you have been. What is seen in the flesh is hard to reproduce in pictures although Derper herper (whom app is only 13) understood what I was referring to (nice to see)



Serious money lol.... Was it by the 13year old. And as for my project.... How was the story inconsistent? Made it pretty clear to anyone with half an idea about breeding and as for no evidence... Wasn't a photo enough. Unlike your piss poor project mine actually has substance. Your a joke I'm going to leave it now, so you can go and get approval from the 13 year old lol... Don't you find it funny he is the only one that sees it!! What happened to the scientific study info from the line breeding thread.... You love making up stories... FI


----------



## Kam333 (Jun 5, 2012)

citrus said:


> Serious money lol.... Was it by the 13year old. And as for my project.... How was the story inconsistent? Made it pretty clear to anyone with half an idea about breeding and as for no evidence... Wasn't a photo enough. Unlike your piss poor project mine actually has substance. Your a joke I'm going to leave it now, so you can go and get approval from the 13 year old lol... Don't you find it funny he is the only one that sees it!! What happened to the scientific study info from the line breeding thread.... You love making up stories... FI



Citrus I am going to point out a couple of things and help shed some light on your confusion -
1. Santa Claus is made up. . sorry but live with it.
2. APS is not a Morph approval committee. . . or any other approval committee.
3. You are not on a Morph approval committee. . . . no one is seeking your approval.
4. There is a herp world outside of APS with so many cool things going on that is not and most likely never will be discussed here. . . why? because most of the serious guys feel no desire to share what they are doing to only have to debate it out with people with attitudes like the one you have displayed here.
5. I have shown one snake out of my collection that might turn out to be something more and then again it might not. . . why has it become such an obsession of yours to poo poo it when you ask me to send you more pics. remember this - *"that calico looks pretty cool do you have anymore photos? what stage are you at with the project, how many do you have?" -PM from Citrus*
And you had no manners in your PM's just a lot of can you send me more pics. . . try please and thank you.
6. I have spent 35+ years gaining knowledge on herps from extensive travel and field trips to conventional study of literature, a stint at a wildlife park and experience as a keeper.. . . You behave as though you have all this superior knowledge, how many years have you put in and where was your knowledge gained? 
7. Morphs and designer snakes. Basic knowledge of inheritable traits and year 8 biology knowledge of genetics does not mean that you are capable breeding designer snakes. Understanding and insight from breeding experience is essential and then you need that ability to guess out the outcome. I have shown a few pics of my selectively bred Jungles that have distinct goals in mind, are you able to produce quality looking sibs that you bred?

Anyway. . . after just reading through the line breeding thread I have seen more conflicting stories about your project, and yes I do have other things to do than wait around for a reply. . . I have a life and was of enjoying it for the rest of that weekend.

Here is the story about your project thus far
*
Pm from Citrus - I can't put photos up as I'm at work but will when I get home.... The only male hyper Darwin in australia*


*
Post from Citrus - (new morphs thread) - Rp/hyper Darwin project*

* Q from Sigridshurte - Citrus that a nice snake! Were you able to produce melanistic snakes* ?

* Reply from Citrus -** It's not actually part of my melanistic Darwin project as he is dark brown and not black. He is the second dark animal produced from this line which is pure rp darwin. this year he is being put back over his daughter to hopefully get a super rp it seems to be co Dom so if it proves out the super form should be something that looks jag but with the neuro problems. Well that's the hopefully out come. As for the dark look of him might be a bonus pop up just have to wait and see. 
**
Question from Stryker (line breeding thread) - By the way can I get one off those Darwins of you?

Response from Citrus (" ") - I don't breed them every year but will be next year as I have some new wc males coming. 
*

(but you said that you are putting him over his daughter this season)

I asked you a question in regards to the project and this is what you said-

*Yes a rp project, A standed Darwin is banded not striped down it's back. he has got very dark over last 12months but you can still see his pattern on the back of his neck. The other dark one that I know of came from different clutch same parents. As for being melanistic I'm not holding my breath that it will be rec. or co Dom. *

So since when have darwins not come in a striped form? You have the nerve to badger every thing I post as well as plague this thread with pointless rude comments and all you can produce to back up you claims of superiority is a standard looking darwin that you claim is RP because it has a stripe???? So where is the RP/melanistic project? as I said inconsistant You should have stuck to your Melanistic story it at least was more believable. Even if I think it looks like a dirty brown snake thats coming into shed.

Last point worth considering, the herp world is relativly small it is not wise to go burning bridges as it is likely to come back and bite you in the rectum.


----------



## citrus (Jun 5, 2012)

pm sent .....


----------



## Goth-Girl (Jul 2, 2012)

OMG This is Seriously Gorgeous..Where can I get one?? Must Have!!!


Jungle_Freak said:


> Also to me and many others , this is what a calico carpet python may look like. Obviously this is a paradox albino but the pattern is very calico looking.etc
> Pic taken from thread below .
> 
> 
> ...


----------

