# first albino pied carpet



## labrats (Jul 17, 2011)

‪Henry Piorun views his clutch of Leucistic/Albino Carpets July 14, 2011‬&rlm; - YouTube


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## reptileaddiction (Jul 17, 2011)

Wow, pity it's got the jag neuro issue. Nice pied though.


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## Jeffa (Jul 17, 2011)

Thats just messed up on so many levels. Just no comment or regards to the animals wellbeing.
But because its different and will make them alot of money it must be okay.:evil:


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## lgotje (Jul 17, 2011)

Looked not very well


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## PythonLegs (Jul 17, 2011)

Thats disgusting..obvious severe neuro issues, inbred and bizarre. And I dont really like his snakes, either.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jul 17, 2011)

Not sure about the snake but I am almost certain that this thread will not live through the day!


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jul 17, 2011)

im new to all this but that poor snake looks very unhealthy...


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## beeman (Jul 17, 2011)

Thats just a window in to the direction this country is headding


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## jinjajoe (Jul 17, 2011)

progression of the hobby !!!!! can't wait ????


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## reuel (Jul 17, 2011)

Just seems very irresponsible knowing what is going to happen to the majority of the clutch and proceeding anyway. Taking bets on how long it survives.


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## spilota_variegata (Jul 17, 2011)

Interesting that he said he started these experiments 6 years ago. I'd like to know where he got his original albino stock from. That long ago, not too many people had albinos. Looks like someone had some little pink things shoved down their underpants on his/ her "holiday" to the US several years ago.

Poor little thing. I don't think it's going to live long.


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## labrats (Jul 17, 2011)

spilota_variegata said:


> Interesting that he said he started these experiments 6 years ago. I'd like to know where he got his original albino stock from. That long ago, not too many people had albinos. Looks like someone had some little pink things shoved down their underpants on his/ her "holiday" to the US several years ago.
> 
> Poor little thing. I don't think it's going to live long.



he has been breeding jag/jag trying to get a lucy that would live but he got no lucies until he breed a jag het albino to a jag last year he got one lucy it was dead this year he got three dead and it looks like the albino gen has some how mixed with the fatal lucy gen to produce something that looks like albino/lucy pied jag it is still alive 24hrs on so only time will tell but i wonder if breeding a jag het to an albino may produce the same


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## JUNGLEJAGUAR (Jul 17, 2011)

He is one lucky bugga!! stunning indeed. poor thing... it Dont look well at all. Fingers Crossed it Makes it.


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## Jeffa (Jul 17, 2011)

JUNGLEJAGUAR said:


> He is one lucky bugga!! stunning indeed. poor thing... it Dont look well at all. Fingers Crossed it Makes it.



Fingers crossed it does not, not a great quality of life!!


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## JUNGLEJAGUAR (Jul 17, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Fingers crossed it does not, not a great quality of life!!



Yeah your prob right!!


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## Royziee (Jul 17, 2011)

Am i the only person who thinks this guy is a giant douche? 

He has no care for any of his animals at all other than a money making tool. When he films himself opening albino clutches he gets so angry and frustrated about the normals that he discovers and treats them like crap. Evident in this video posted aswell "Oh no thats a normal there" *drops it on its head*. I'm no "greenie" and i do eat meat, but i always feel sorry for the animals he breeds.

Edit:

Just remembered he is also the guy with the annoying attention seeking daughter and the really annoying wife (i assume) speaking behind the camera.


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## JUNGLEJAGUAR (Jul 17, 2011)

Actually your right there Royziee, 
Just watched it again.. and yeah he does treat them like crap... what a complete jerk... Bash Bash Bash Im actually shocked to see this!! poor baby Hatchlings

Jane


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## Vixen (Jul 17, 2011)

As Beeman said, this is a just a glimpse of the direction Australia is heading - and the reason I am seriously considering selling off most of my stock and getting out the hobby. It's a shame as I have only been keeping for about 5 years now, but even in that time I can see how everything has gone downhill very quickly - once again it's back to 'money rules all'.


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## D3pro (Jul 17, 2011)

I love this dramatic hobby lol


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## snakebag (Jul 17, 2011)

The first 3 Pied albino carpets were hatched last year in Australia with no jag gene present.


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## pythonmum (Jul 17, 2011)

That poor little thing is spinning like a top.


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## D3pro (Jul 17, 2011)

Vixen said:


> As Beeman said, this is a just a glimpse of the direction Australia is heading - and the reason I am seriously considering selling off most of my stock and getting out the hobby. It's a shame as I have only been keeping for about 5 years now, but even in that time I can see how everything has gone downhill very quickly - once again it's back to 'money rules all'.



Vixen the morph side might head that way but "your" hobby doesn't. Keep and breed what you want and are interested in. Who cares what others are doing. 
What happened to having fun? lol

(and I say that with full respect to you and your breeding projects)


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## Wally (Jul 17, 2011)

Nothing a little blunt force trauma wouldn't fix.


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## metalboy (Jul 17, 2011)

snakebag said:


> The first 3 Pied albino carpets were hatched last year in Australia with no jag gene present.


where can we find info on this?
where they darwins?


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## JUNGLEJAGUAR (Jul 17, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> Nothing a little blunt force trauma wouldn't fix.



:shock:


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## yommy (Jul 17, 2011)

Vixen said:


> As Beeman said, this is a just a glimpse of the direction Australia is heading - and the reason I am seriously considering selling off most of my stock and getting out the hobby. It's a shame as I have only been keeping for about 5 years now, but even in that time I can see how everything has gone downhill very quickly - once again it's back to 'money rules all'.



Just don't keep morelia then. 
There are plenty of other pure genus out there....... 
It would be a real shame to want to leave the hobby when there are other options then just morphs


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 17, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> Nothing a little blunt force trauma wouldn't fix.



Only humane option really

Vixen, I don't like it but I'm not going to let it effect what I do within the hobby. The hobby is what you make of it for yourself. You can choose to have absolutely nothing to do with Jags and morphs, and even if you did leave the hobby, your opinions on it won't disappear


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## Vixen (Jul 17, 2011)

That's true, I would never touch the things myself but it does still affect me, as people argue and accuse me of breeding them (wait - I thought people liked Jags now anyway? But no I dont, I have reduced pattern Proserpine coastals - much better looking and without the neuro! ). Some seem to condemn this, but will then turn about and pat someone else on the back who DOES breed Jags, just because they might be a bigger name?? 

I might sell off a number of my animals, but I will always be keeping my coastals and most likely a few other pairs that i've had around for a long time.


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## reptileaddiction (Jul 17, 2011)

One possible good point is if the Pied gene is recessive he'll be able to breed the jag gene out by putting it over a non-jag animal then breeding the sibs to each other (will be all non-jags), and also putting the pied parent back over sibs and only ever keeping the sibs from this and discard the jag ones. The neuro issue should disappear with the jag gene.


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## byron_moses (Jul 17, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Thats just messed up on so many levels. Just no comment or regards to the animals wellbeing.
> But because its different and will make them alot of money it must be okay.:evil:



jag to jag breedings normally result in 100% mortality rate it wont be alive long enough for them to make money on it


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 17, 2011)

Its not a pied gene , its a Leucistic gene from Jag to jag breeding in Co Dom inheritance .
And more than likely its a parodox albino leucistic morph possibly created by Chimera genetics.
If a embrio destined to be leucistic and a embrio destined to be albino fuse together to become one animal but carrying 2 genetic mutations ? instead of being twins together inside the same egg.
Then a combinationation of 2 seperate forms are merged into a single chimera form .

Heres a example of a paradox albino ball python.
http://www.edmontonreptiles.com/foru...ead.php?t=1347






Or heres a quote from Nick Mutton from another forum .
I talked to Henry today and have seen a good picture of it. I think I have it figured out but it gives me a headache to think about. I doubt it a chimeric paradox. I think its some sort of mosaic paradox. Its likely that the animal is a super jag, but that some areas of the body are missing some genetic information. the animal is a het albino but portions appear albino because the normal copy of that allele is missing in those areas. It also has dark eyes

End Quote


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## labrats (Jul 17, 2011)

reptileaddiction said:


> One possible good point is if the Pied gene is recessive he'll be able to breed the jag gene out by putting it over a non-jag animal then breeding the sibs to each other (will be all non-jags), and also putting the pied parent back over sibs and only ever keeping the sibs from this and discard the jag ones. The neuro issue should disappear with the jag gene.


very true but like you always see on this forum everyone hates them but if they breed one they'd love them gotta love the haters lol



snakebag said:


> The first 3 Pied albino carpets were hatched last year in Australia with no jag gene present.



i stand corrected hope they are avilable soon


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## Mace699 (Jul 17, 2011)

poor lil fellas i feel sorry for em. its just cruel they cant have any quality of life living like that.


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## pythrulz (Jul 17, 2011)

At least one of those looked very sick to young to tell if they where piebalds I know of someone trying to selectivly breed piebald darwins as for a lucistic thats a few years off I believe


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## RickLeekong (Jul 17, 2011)

ThAtS fAbUlOuS, HoW eXcItInG


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## Gusbus (Jul 17, 2011)

cant wait to see what happens


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## RickLeekong (Jul 18, 2011)

RickLeekong said:


> ThAtS fAbUlOuS, HoW eXcItInG


maybe not


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## blakehose (Jul 18, 2011)

Needs to be euthanised.


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## longqi (Jul 18, 2011)

If it was any animal except a snake everyone would be screaming blue murder


But its a snake
Who cares if genetic defects are deliberately bred into snakes??
They are only low class reptiles

Not like breeding genetic defects into cats or dogs
They are fluffy pets
Couldnt permit that???

Its becoming a sad sad hobby when money rules


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## D3pro (Jul 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> Its becoming a sad sad hobby when money rules



You need consumers to make money rule.


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## longqi (Jul 18, 2011)

Thats the biggest problem ^^^^

There are so many people who would give anything to own a poor unfortunate creature like that
Not so that they could love it and cherish every moment with it
But only because they can say.... ""Look what Ive got""


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 18, 2011)

I think you will find that people who love morphs are into them because they are so beautiful . ????????
And not only because of the money involved .

What about pure breeds of cats and dogs or live stock etc , pugs /boxers have overshot jaws , and other genetic faults are common is many cats and dogs and livestock ??
Many pets are produced each year simply because of looks, not because those looks come with faulty genes that affect health issues in these animals .

The whole hobby could be said to be nothing but a money hobby . Reptiles are not free ????
GTP were high priced for yonks and any new / rare or best example of a species will always command a good price.
The facts are pets or live stock are seclective bred for traits or mutations and sometimes the best examples come with genetic faults. 

All responcible breeders whatever species they work with will try their best to outcross and fix these problems but sometimes it cannot be done. 

A little common sence goes a long way people ????


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## K3nny (Jul 18, 2011)

whatever happened to simply producing good quality, healthy animals? 
as nice as the color may seem it almost had a "put me out of my misery" look to it... sad...


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## labrats (Jul 18, 2011)

its still alive and less head wobble then in the video


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## impulse reptiles (Jul 18, 2011)

why would you throw a snake around the tub like that, brightest lights and put a camera in its face, id want to put the least amount of stress on the snake to get the bugger feeding. i wouldn't be surprised if he cut the eggs half open 20 days early or something, seriously


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## hypochondroac (Jul 18, 2011)

Why the hell would you TRY and breed a retard.


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 18, 2011)

Wait till the photos surface of this python,
I think you will be totally surprised.
Its actually the nicest carpet python ive ever seen .
Looks like a cross between a pied and albino with fluro orange on clean white blotches.


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## SamNabz (Jul 18, 2011)

Have you seen an updated pic of this snake, Roger?

If so, and it's on another forum, please PM me.


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## metalboy (Jul 18, 2011)

pm me details aswell please


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 18, 2011)

Im going on the video footage and what i was told .
But i believe pics will be posted in the near future on some forums .
Not sure which forums though...


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## SamNabz (Jul 18, 2011)

Ah ok fair enough, thanks for that.

It will definitely be an incredible looking python, IF it survives...


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## SYNeR (Jul 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> Not like breeding genetic defects into cats or dogs
> They are fluffy pets
> Couldnt permit that???



Actually, you'll find this has long been an issues with cats and dogs.


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 18, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> I think you will find that people who love morphs are into them because they are so beautiful . ????????
> And not only because of the money involved .
> A little common sence goes a long way people ????



Ditto Bro....Its a tough Gig Rog trying to explain that..I'll leave it to you mate!  :lol:

Cheers mate....
Oh BTW, I have seen some good hook ups with those "pure" RP jungle morphs we traded many years ago..looking good Rog!


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## longqi (Jul 18, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> I think you will find that people who love morphs are into them because they are so beautiful . ????????
> And not only because of the money involved .
> 
> What about pure breeds of cats and dogs or live stock etc , pugs /boxers have overshot jaws , and other genetic faults are common is many cats and dogs and livestock ??
> ...



All responsible breeders try their best to reduce this?????
Tell that to this breeder
He has maintained trying to breed these for years with zero success or attempt to reduce the bad genes because all he uses are already defected parent stock

There are very valid reasons why some human couples are told to never have children
yet we force these animals to mate to produce defective babies

GTPs were over priced in Aus
That is the reason they dropped so dramatically in price after more breeders produced good hatchies

Simple question
would you buy a GTP or BHP or Diamond that acted as sick as this poor thing does??


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## labrats (Jul 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> All responsible breeders try their best to reduce this?????
> Tell that to this breeder
> He has maintained trying to breed these for years with zero success or attempt to reduce the bad genes because all he uses are already defected parent stock
> 
> ...




these animals breath,eat,s*#t,shed and breed all by themself just because some have a head wobble they shouldnt be breed? this snake was stressed and is not showing the major neuro problems from the video it still has a slight head wobble


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## SamNabz (Jul 18, 2011)

lol longqi, why do you always go from one extreme to the other..?


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## hugsta (Jul 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> All responsible breeders try their best to reduce this?????
> Tell that to this breeder
> He has maintained trying to breed these for years with zero success or attempt to reduce the bad genes because all he uses are already defected parent stock
> 
> ...



I agree with Roger, there would be far more common defects in pet cats and dogs than there are reptiles. We all know large breed dogs such as rotties and shephards have hip displasia(?) problems. Yet they still breed them to win that elusive 'best in show' dog. Then charge more for it because it comes with papers. The fluffy cat and dog industry is far worse than the reptile hobby. These people are just as bad as this guy if that is the way you want to look at it.

Also, the attempt to continually breed these together may be more in depth than we know. I.E. he may have been breeding different parents during each attempt and not the same pair year in year out. The fact that he has produced this animal could possibly be a major breakthrough. If he manages to grow this and breed it, he may be able to breed out the nuero issue to an extent and still be able to produce these animals. Something noone else has done.

In regards to pricing, there will always be something to replace what has become common. Chondros came down in price due to so many being smuggled and lack of buyers, womas came down due to oversupply of market. Those people that were used to getting their $5k + for chondros and $2k plus for womas had to find another source. So in came the JAGs and other morphs. Unfortunately the nuero issue has killed most of the market and prices dropped rapidly, although some still fetch higher amounts.

I do see the issue with this animal, and I do also understand why he is excited about it. I am sure all of you on here would love to produce something that no one else has, believe me, it is pretty awesome.


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## SamNabz (Jul 18, 2011)

Well said hugsta


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 18, 2011)

I find it very amusing reading some of the bullshit JAG breeders peddle to justify themselves, maybe if I keep telling myself and everyone within earshot that I'm 6ft, 90kg's of pure stud muffin, others will find me irresistable too.

On the *****ide, other than a twisty twirly snake I think some of those that are vehemently opposed to JAGS are seeing things in the video that didn't happen, like chucking hatchies around.



^^^ flip side


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## D3pro (Jul 18, 2011)




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## hugsta (Jul 18, 2011)

steve1 said:


> I find it very amusing reading some of the bullshit JAG breeders peddle to justify themselves, maybe if I keep telling myself and everyone within earshot that I'm 6ft, 90kg's of pure stud muffin, others will find me irresistable too.
> 
> On the *****ide, other than a twisty twirly snake I think some of those that are vehemently opposed to JAGS are seeing things in the video that didn't happen, like chucking hatchies around.
> 
> ...



So who are 'the jag breeders'....?


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## Scleropages (Jul 18, 2011)

Cool looking snake , pity its "stuffed" he should knock it on the head and start again and stop posting vids until one looks ok.

For all the people freaked out about him trying to hatch something that most likely will have nuro probs should think about what happened to the cow or chicken you ate tonight and get over it. If everyone is so fond of animals living a good life then you people wouldn't be eating them!

I hope he hatches one that has no Nuro probs and I don't even eat meat.

Get over it people!


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 18, 2011)

Sorry, I'll rephrase. Anyone who condones the breeding of Jags


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jul 18, 2011)

The breeding of Jags or a different type of morph is far different to continuosly breeding twisty twirly type snakes, nobody wants a twisty twirly type of snake & they are no good to anybody. 
But if one day it can be achieved without the twisty twirly, then who would crucify for trying. If only the against people could see some good results instead of looking at stupid videos of the worst, then maybe you could see the potential of a new morph become available in the pet trade. It takes breeders a long long time to pefect or prove a breed.

If you don't like them then don't buy one, SIMPLE.

Cheers
Ian


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 18, 2011)

I don't think people are concerned about their right to buy or not, but rather the rights of the animals. So not quite so SIMPLE


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## D3pro (Jul 18, 2011)

I haven't had a snake take me to court yet


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## SamNabz (Jul 18, 2011)

lmfao


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jul 18, 2011)

The other thing that I would ask, is that the community against Jags are that fogged by the idea that they where illegally imported. Is there any evidence of this??????????? if so why has it not come out????????

Think about it, if these American Jags are progeny of Australian stock, which they obviously are, then there must be even the slightest possibility that Australian breeders have copied what the americans did to breed these snakes here in Australia.

So many people have been up in arms about this subject as soon as it came to light, & I personally believe it is because of the bad publicity from a couple of videos or recordings that make this breed look worse than they are.
Those that have the breed & can recognise the problems are the best ones to comment & hence keep the BS away & tell it how it really is. There is very little to none with huge neuro problems bred from the stock here in Australia.

Thats how I see it anyway.

Cheers
Ian


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## hugsta (Jul 18, 2011)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> The other thing that I would ask, is that the community against Jags are that fogged by the idea that they where illegally imported. Is there any evidence of this??????????? if so why has it not come out????????
> 
> Think about it, if these American Jags are progeny of Australian stock, which they obviously are, then there must be even the slightest possibility that Australian breeders have copied what the americans did to breed these snakes here in Australia.
> 
> ...



So you would say that it seems realistic, that another person randomly bred a completely different morph to a JAG, yet it exhibits the exact same genetic trait (co-dom), the exact same genetic defect (neurologiacal disorder) and the exact same genetic markings(physical appearance). They were smuggled, not randomly reproduced and I highly doubt the persons involved are going to put their hands up and say "hey, look what I just smuggled in". So no one will ever have any 'evidence' of this to prove it. However, the facts are, they were smuggled in, quite a few years ago now. I am not a JAG hater or lover for that matter, I see them as what they are, a nice looking animal that can have nuero issues, some worse than others. I also don't think it is bad publicity, I think it is only fair that people know what hazzards they can potentially have. it was only the JAG breeders that got all up in arms about their neuro issues coming to light as it killed the animals dollar value.
Thats how I see it.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jul 18, 2011)

So hugsta,
You know this for sure, & have kept & bred them, so you know all the defects & ratios etc?????
Thats how I see it.


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## hugsta (Jul 18, 2011)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> So hugsta,
> You know this for sure, & have kept & bred them, so you know all the defects & ratios etc?????
> Thats how I see it.



You don't need to have kept and bred them to know the facts about them. I do know more people than just myself in this hobby, and funny enough, some of those own JAGs and have done for a while.


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## D3pro (Jul 18, 2011)

Jags being smuggled isn't anything new nor surprising... most of the greens here are smuggled.... so is the panda sitting on my lap


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jul 18, 2011)

hugsta said:


> You don't need to have kept and bred them to know the facts about them. I do know more people than just myself in this hobby, and funny enough, some of those own JAGs and have done for a while.



So your right up with it then?
Cheers


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## hugsta (Jul 18, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Jags being smuggled isn't anything new nor surprising... most of the greens here are smuggled.... so is the panda sitting on my lap



What sex is your Panda? I have a pied one here.


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## D3pro (Jul 18, 2011)

hugsta said:


> What sex is your Panda? I have a pied one here.



What are the odds? lol


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jul 18, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Jags being smuggled isn't anything new nor surprising... most of the greens here are smuggled.... so is the panda sitting on my lap



And here we are worried if an aussie snake is smuggled back in.
Don't start me there D3, I can go a long way, Northern coastline, remote airports, where do you want to start?????

Cheers
Ian


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## nasool (Jul 18, 2011)

Pretty simple to do the research, it was played down in america when the jags first came about in regards to the problems they have. Now it is accepted all jags will at some stage shows signs of it, the severity differs but it is a part of the gene. Give it 5 years and people will openly acknowledge it here. They are to new in australia for people to realise it thats all. Of course it was not a morph bred in australia. To try and say otherwise is pretty comical.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk


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## jinjajoe (Jul 18, 2011)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> The other thing that I would ask, is that the community against Jags are that fogged by the idea that they where illegally imported. Is there any evidence of this??????????? if so why has it not come out????????
> 
> Think about it, if these American Jags are progeny of Australian stock, which they obviously are, then there must be even the slightest possibility that Australian breeders have copied what the americans did to breed these snakes here in Australia.
> 
> ...



Mate you are wrong massively wrong...... trust me...... no offence intended..... just because you don't know who brought them in then it doesn't mean others don't & they are not going to give evidence to prove you wrong.... just accept it.... & I seriously mean no offence by my post.


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## D3pro (Jul 18, 2011)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> And here we are worried if an aussie snake is smuggled back in.
> Don't start me there D3, I can go a long way, Northern coastline, remote airports, where do you want to start?????
> 
> Cheers
> Ian



Start with this guy... I say we report him... he has jag smuggler written all over...


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## Erebos (Jul 18, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Start with this guy... I say we report him... he has jag smuggler written all over...
> 
> View attachment 209963


 
Lol funny stuff.


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## hugsta (Jul 18, 2011)

nasool said:


> Pretty simple to do the research, it was played down in america when the jags first came about in regards to the problems they have. Now it is accepted all jags will at some stage shows signs of it, the severity differs but it is a part of the gene. Give it 5 years and people will openly acknowledge it here. They are to new in australia for people to realise it thats all. Of course it was not a morph bred in australia. To try and say otherwise is pretty comical.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk



Some people are just still in denial that's all. 



jinjajoe said:


> Mate you are wrong massively wrong...... trust me...... no offence intended..... just because you don't know who brought them in then it doesn't mean others don't & they are not going to give evidence to prove you wrong.... just accept it.... & I seriously mean no offence by my post.



Well, I wasn't trying to be so blatant, but anyway. Agreed.


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## longqi (Jul 18, 2011)

Ian
Ive visited Jag breeders in Denmark Germany USA Canada Norway and England
Ive handled a couple of hundred adults and seen a lot more
Only in England do they try to deny that Jags can and do have potentially horrible defects

To breed defects deliberately is sometimes acceptable
IE to grow a fatter bigger or faster etc dog cat cow etc etc
Those defects are considered as attributes by most, but as defects by purists, and do not affect the mental condition of the animal

But to deliberately breed any animal where altering the colour also alters the brain and results in incurable Neurological problems may turn out to be a terrible mistake
I say incurable because that is the opinion of every responsible jag breeder I have met
All of them also agree that the neuro defects happen in many different degrees and some jags are virtually free of any visible signs
I know of 2 in Bali and 2 in Surabaya that are really beautiful animals with very few signs of neuro
But most of their hatchies have reverted back to more neuro


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