# Reptiles in NSW pet shop



## jacks-pythons (Dec 3, 2012)

*Reptiles sold in NSW pet shop*

In the next two weeks the decision will be made to allow the sale of reptiles in NSW pet shops. The main concern is the size of the enclosure which the animals will be on display in. This has been dragged on for a while but id like to see what everyone thinks about the decision to come. Personally im not a fan of the idea of them being sold in pet shops but i haven't see it before like they have in perth and QLD etc.

whats your opinion on this matter? all welcome positive and negative.


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## hayden123113 (Dec 3, 2012)

I think that this is a good idea, it makes our hobby more known, lets people know just how good it can be to keep snakes as pets, not to mention that australia has 7 out of 10 of the most venomous snakes in the world leading people to be scared of them. If people keep them as pets more often maybe people will not be as afraid  as they are now and not try to kill them when they are seen in the back yard. not to metion it will be convenient to buy the reptile and enclosure at the same place, and you will also be able to by at expos. on the other hand there are some pet shops that keep there animals in disgusting conditions and i would not want any animal let alone a reptile to live in them, so there should be complusory checks on the living conditions on the animals as well as course done that teaches the pet shop owner to care for reptiles.

p.s sorry for any spelling or grammar errors


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## jacks-pythons (Dec 3, 2012)

i know that the pet shops which may be able to sell them will need to shop experience with reptiles before they are given a license to sell them. i personally wont buy from a pet shop. id prefer a breeder who knows what there talking about and not what they have read.


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## Variety (Dec 3, 2012)

If done correctly this could be a massive plus to the hobby, Naturally it can also be a minus depending on how certain things are handled such as advice and husbandry within the shop itself. 

Please do expect a mass of people with walls of text stating that nothing good can come from this as it is an old topic but as its nor relevant, nows the time for an official topic like this. They will argue that it will cause a dramatic increase in impulse buying that will often lead to poor husbandry and horrible living conditions for reptiles once they're home. I would argue that its better to have impulse buyers going to a pet shop instead of gum tree as they can be given proper advice (I can only assume) & a number to call incase something goes wrong down the path. 

It all depends on the husbandry standard expected of pet shops.


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## Gonemad (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm still on fence. But there has been a lot of valid comments for and against.
At the end of the day we can only decide if we personally will purchase from a shop.
I admit I seen a beautiful little Darwin hatchie in Melbourne pet shop but decided against it.
They do look more appealing in a shop as breeders don't like you viewing except through photos, this is a MUST
I completely understand why this happens, so displayed in shops could be a great way to promote reptiles.


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## emmadiamond (Dec 3, 2012)

I work in a pet shop, we only sell small animals and the occasional rescued kittens.
I'm not sure that I'd feel comfortable selling reptiles to your everyday joe blows. 
I think their would be a lot of people who think it'd be a cool pet to have without realizing the long term commitment especially in upsizing their enclosures as the reptile grows and getting heating requirements right. But in saying that I feel that having the licensing process would stop a lot of impulse buying. I think people interested should maybe have a cooling off period and perhaps have to give an expression of interest before buying the animal.


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## hayden123113 (Dec 3, 2012)

emmadiamond said:


> I work in a pet shop, we only sell small animals and the occasional rescued kittens.
> I'm not sure that I'd feel comfortable selling reptiles to your everyday joe blows.
> I think their would be a lot of people who think it'd be a cool pet to have without realizing the long term commitment especially in upsizing their enclosures as the reptile grows and getting heating requirements right. But in saying that I feel that having the licensing process would stop a lot of impulse buying. I think people interested should maybe have a cooling off period and perhaps have to give an expression of interest before buying the animal.



I think a expression of interest it a great idea although caring for a reptile isnt always hard if it on a class one licence, snakes for example are one of the easiest pets to care for, feed them one a week depending on age, clean there water 3 times a week watch for poo every now and then, and if you have a thermostat and correct equiptment heating is not a problem. if you ask me that alot less commitment than a dog even cat whcih you have to feed every day or it will die.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 3, 2012)

Plenty of idiots that know nothing come into our shop and they have already bought reptiles from breeders so how is this different. Not one breeder I have purchased from has asked me how experienced I am. I interrogate customers that want to buy from our shop and turn many away. Having said that, as stated in another post on the topic, there are more bad shops in Melbourne than good and even half the good ones get lazy or sales driven. Some of our other staff have worked in other shops and some of the stories I have been told are heartbreaking and infuriating. Things like getting staff to smash live rats against the wall even though they have frozen ones, standing behind the enclosures looking up girls skirts (owner included) etc.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 3, 2012)

Worst idea in my opinion.
More neglected animals, more keepers who have absolutely no clue about the reptiles care.

It also makes me wonder how the reptiles will be treated in the shop, I can only assume that not all current pet shop employees are comfortable with reptiles. That to me means that the animals will more than likely not have their basic husbandry requirements met due to the employees fear.
I hope they decide to do the right thing by the animals for once and don't allow it.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 3, 2012)

I'd also like to state that there is a big difference between a pet shop and a specialist reptile/aquarium shop. I say reptile/aquarium as most shops would not survive with reptiles alone.


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## Gonemad (Dec 3, 2012)

We have reptile shops it's just we don't get to walk in off the streets and they are still in business so I'm not real shore they wouldn't survive.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 3, 2012)

Gonemad said:


> We have reptile shops it's just we don't get to walk in off the streets and they are still in business so I'm not real shore they wouldn't survive.


What do you mean don't get to walk in off the street, I'm confused. Our shop is a reptile/aquarium and we make a lot more money from the fish side of things. A reptile shop may survive if it is the only one in a remote area, but not when you can visit half a dozen in a day and pick and choose.


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## saintanger (Dec 3, 2012)

i'm a fence sitter too. i see some good points and some bad.

it would be a good idea to make the hobby more well known, you would not believe the number of people that don't relise you can keep them as pets or others that keep them as pets but did not relise you need a licence. caresheets should be mandatory to be handed out with the reptiles they sell.

but these days you can get a licence online in minutes so there would be impulse buying from people who know nothing about reptiles and think they look cool. then a few months down the track they will be trying to sell them or letting them lose.

also how many reptiles will die because of not being cared for properly. 

i know this already happens, no breeder i have bought off has ever asked me if i have experience or a set up ready to go. or even given me a care sheet. 

but if this goes all wrong and animals are being dumped, released, excaping or to many dying in captivity ect who will pay the price for it? we as reptile owners will face tougher laws and regulations because of other peoples actions.


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## SteveNT (Dec 3, 2012)

I bought one of my snakes- Sweety- a tiny gorgeous pink Darwin hatchy, because the idiot in the pet shop had welding gloves on and just ripped her out of the tank. I guess it was a parental reaction, but what I was seeing was all wrong. THIS TEEN WAS A MONSTER who actually hated the snakes and made no secret of it. Anyway Sweets is all good now but when LPS employ uninterested clowns there is no joy in that.


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## Skinnerguy (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't believe impulse buying will really be an issue, because usually if the idea takes time or has a major cost, the novelty wears off, and I believe the licensing in NSW will be an easy deterrent. If someone walks into a pet shop and thinks "That would be cool, I could keep a snake at home in an ice cream tub", they will easily be put off by the staff informing them that they need a licence (which requires money) and if when explaining the licence they mention that the rangers have the right to perform impromptu inspections of the home of anyone who has a licence, I'm sure the person in question will have a rather long think about whether they do want to make that commitment. If the impulse buying comes from people already licenced and within the hobby, well that's not really different from the current situation, as we are all driven to get that one that we "really shouldn't", when faced with the nice shiny prospect of an expo. I swear expos are all equipped with doors that as soon as you walk through them, they instantly melt away your inhibitions.
I think it could be a definite positive for the hobby, and as for the abuse and neglect, well I believe that already happens in pet shops, and the only difference is that the poor creatures suffering the conditions would have scales. It's like saying "you can't sell steak at McDonalds! It's too fattening!" 
And personally I would like the convenience of not having to deal with people through impersonal means of communication, and all the second guessing that happens when it comes to selling/buying.


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## Blake182 (Dec 3, 2012)

It's a bad idea....


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## Gonemad (Dec 3, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> What do you mean don't get to walk in off the street, I'm confused. Our shop is a reptile/aquarium and we make a lot more money from the fish side of things. A reptile shop may survive if it is the only one in a remote area, but not when you can visit half a dozen in a day and pick and choose.



I mean breeders are suppliers (shops) that people can't walk in off the street and they seem to make their money without selling fish they are easily found with google to the public just don't have shop front ( don't get me wrong I will purchase from well known breeder before I do a pet shop).


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## Bananapeel (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree that if it is done correctly in pet shops that have staff with *real* knowledge on reptiles and the reptiles are kept well it could be a great success. However, if the shops aren't checked regularly by official people, the shops use reptiles as another way to make quick money or other negative attributes, it could be damaging to wildlife and be a let down to the hobby.
Personally I prefer breeders as you know all the history, the breeding lines etc. Breeding is their job so they are in it for hobbyist's sake not just money and they give fair prices for usually a better animal than a petshop. Just IMO.
However, there are shops such as Amazing Amazon which specialize in reptiles, so like a breeder, they know their stuff and they have only good quality animals.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 3, 2012)

That is one good thing about Melbourne, takes weeks to get a licence. You can't always tell with some people either. I sold an outstanding BHP to someone who appeared to be very knowledable. he was in his forties, quite respectable, talked the talk, had an advanced licence. This was in 4 months, she came back the other day as he could no longer keep her, he claimed she was too aggressive. I wasn't there lucky for him. He gave this big sob story about how his daughters were looking after her and neglected her etc. She had a rather large burn scar on her side and was incredibly stressed. No cages, top opening enclosure, his total lack of confidence and god knows what else. Temperament wise though, she is cage defensive but when out is a puppy dog. I nearly cried when I saw her. My boss gave him very little for her and he had the nerve to complain about how much he had paid. He also broke the 6 month rule but know way we were going to leave her with him for 2 more months. On the flip side you get the ones that look like they haven't got 2 cents to their name and know absolutely nothing but go on to be outstanding pet owners that truly care for there animals and spend every spare dollar on them. I am sure breeders encounter this all the time as well.

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Gonemad said:


> I mean breeders are suppliers (shops) that people can't walk in off the street and they seem to make their money without selling fish they are easily found with google to the public just don't have shop front ( don't get me wrong I will purchase from well known breeder before I do a pet shop).



Not many breeders do this as a fulltime job, most have another fulltime source of income. Where do you think shops get most of their juvenile stock? From breeders who can't sell them or don't want the hassle of selling privately to individuals. A private breeder is a completely different scenario to a shop.


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## rachmoo (Dec 3, 2012)

I work in a pet shop myself, and I have mixed feelings about this. I have so many people coming in asking for reptiles that didn't even know you needed a license, just thought it would be 'cool' to buy one. Luckily, I care more about the animals than sales so make sure I keep them there to explain all the requirements for the animal and it usually actually turns people away! But some find it interesting so I give them leads to specific dealers and where to get their license first.

The main concern for selling any animal in a pet shop is that employees are required to push a sale when the animal gets too old (my shop doesn't sell pets other than fish luckily). But when an animal gets older, they need to get rid of it, so instead of sussing out the buyers that may be impulse buying, they need to convince the buyer that this is a good idea.

I think if employees are trained properly in the information they need to tell the people first, and there should be a system of proof that they have all of the required enclosure setup, then it should be fine....or there should be a day course involved on the care for the reptile. But that will never happen with the costs and requirements for trained staff for this.

I think the mere fact that we sell reptile products entices people to look into it more, or ask us some more information, and I think that is enough personally.


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## Wally (Dec 3, 2012)

More three legged beardies on the horizon.


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## Gonemad (Dec 3, 2012)

This is no dig at anyone or snake but Reptiles are expensive?
Set up, heat, thermostats, enclosure then the snake etc so I believe impulse buying wont be a real problem.
facts I can ring up any snake breeder reputation or not get bank details pay for animal have it shipped 
Keep it in a cardboard box, As to walk in to petshops and buy the snake saying I have an enclosure that my father had his snake in ten years previous knowing the only snake my father had was hanging off the end of a shovel.
I believe we need to educate people to excepting snakes rather than killing. petshops may buy the unwanted snakes to eliminate a small number of deaths and releases when buyer get sick of them it happens. I know when I started I was scared of snakes didn't know if I could look after one, touch red books etc but no hands on stuff. so I asked a friend if my snake and I didn't work out would he have the space for it. May be frowned apon but I had a plan if I failed as a career.


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## saintanger (Dec 3, 2012)

in NSW a 2 year pensioner licence is $50 and full price is $63. that will not stop impulse buying. also i doubt pet shops will inform buyers wen they get their licence that they are subject to random visits from DEC for inspections.


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## Skinnerguy (Dec 3, 2012)

It's all well and good to say "we have good enough shops, and there are plenty of breeders around, and if you want something particular you can get it from another state", but we aren't all from Sydney or a suburb of which who all have a breeder just down the road. Pet shops selling reptiles would be extremely beneficial when your only other options are to go searching for breeders that sell the species you want, the likelihood being that they are a number of hours away and will not freight, or travel 16 - 20 hours in one weekend (as I have done the last two years) to get to the Expos once a year.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 3, 2012)

rachmoo said:


> The main concern for selling any animal in a pet shop is that employees are required to push a sale when the animal gets too old (my shop doesn't sell pets other than fish luckily). But when an animal gets older, they need to get rid of it, so instead of sussing out the buyers that may be impulse buying, they need to convince the buyer that this is a good idea.
> 
> I think if employees are trained properly in the information they need to tell the people first, and there should be a system of proof that they have all of the required enclosure setup, then it should be fine....but that will never happen.


Haha, thats gold, we have adult animals in our shop that have been there for ages, like a psycho water python, sold to dimwits with no clue, by a breeder, and then passed on to us when it all got too hard. They are cared for and fed like all the others and we have probably spent 3 times as much as we are selling them for on food and upkeep. Yes I could push this snake onto some unsuspecting patsy but when they ask what the temperament is like I say it is very aggressive and anyone with no experience is immediately put off. And again, proof is not required by most breeders either. We make most reptile revenue from food and equipment. You'd be surprised if I were to name some of the breeders that sell to us. They are well respected breeders with years of experience and well known lines of animals, some even have a few books up their sleeve.


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## rack_one (Dec 3, 2012)

I would like to now how the price is going to be because I really don't think they are going to breed there own so they will have to buy from a breeder mark up the price like 50% then they will have feeding expences and a rise in electricity so how much are they going to be selling reptiles for


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## rachmoo (Dec 3, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> Haha, thats gold, we have adult animals in our shop that have been there for ages, like a psycho water python, sold to dimwits with no clue, by a breeder, and then passed on to us when it all got too hard. They are cared for and fed like all the others and we have probably spent 3 times as much as we are selling them for on food and upkeep. Yes I could push this snake onto some unsuspecting patsy but when they ask what the temperament is like I say it is very aggressive and anyone with no experience is immediately put off. And again, proof is not required by most breeders either. We make most reptile revenue from food and equipment. You'd be surprised if I were to name some of the breeders that sell to us. They are well respected breeders with years of experience and well known lines of animals, some even have a few books up their sleeve.



Oh, well a good pet shop you work at then! I have a few friends that have worked in other pet shops and have been told to push the sale of something like a rabbit to a puppy because it's reaching an older age, good to know this isn't happening everywhere, the idea sickens me!
I suppose the only real concern then is making sure the pet shops they are being sold in are good ones with informed employees on the care for them. That's true, I had someone come in the other day saying he keeps his Diamond Python in a bird cage outside with no heating, and he was going to put a gecko in with it..apparently the breeder said that they would be fine together and this is a suitable enclosure. I guess it is similar with breeders, selling some to absolute idiots and can give them the wrong information. 
I suppose I may be for the idea as long as the employees are experienced in the proper requirements to sell them with.


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## Gonemad (Dec 3, 2012)

saintanger said:


> in NSW a 2 year pensioner licence is $50 and full price is $63. that will not stop impulse buying. also i doubt pet shops will inform buyers wen they get their licence that they are subject to random visits from DEC for inspections.



I hope licences will be changed as to online instant back to 21 days.
We have no say governments will have it a go a head as they see money we see possible neglect, and impulse purchases.


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## rachmoo (Dec 3, 2012)

rack_one said:


> I would like to now how the price is going to be because I really don't think they are going to breed there own so they will have to buy from a breeder mark up the price like 50% then they will have feeding expences and a rise in electricity so how much are they going to be selling reptiles for


That's a good point


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## Wally (Dec 3, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> Haha, thats gold, we have adult animals in our shop that have been there for ages, like a psycho water python, sold to dimwits with no clue, by a breeder, and then passed on to us when it all got too hard. They are cared for and fed like all the others and we have probably spent 3 times as much as we are selling them for on food and upkeep. Yes I could push this snake onto some unsuspecting patsy but when they ask what the temperament is like I say it is very aggressive and anyone with no experience is immediately put off. And again, proof is not required by most breeders either. We make most reptile revenue from food and equipment. You'd be surprised if I were to name some of the breeders that sell to us. They are well respected breeders with years of experience and well known lines of animals, some even have a few books up their sleeve.



You seem to be taking all this quite personally. We get it, you work in a pet shop and run a tight ship. Kudos to you. Sadly there are many shops that aren't run this way. This isn't just about one shop(yours), it's about legislation that allows many shops to start trading in reptiles. The odds will undoubtedly stack up against the reptiles welfare.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 4, 2012)

Wally76 said:


> You seem to be taking all this quite personally. We get it, you work in a pet shop and run a tight ship. Kudos to you. Sadly there are many shops that aren't run this way. This isn't just about one shop(yours), it's about legislation that allows many shops to start trading in reptiles. The odds will undoubtedly stack up against the reptiles welfare.



Not at all and I said earlier their are many bad shops around. It is a lot easier to push a fluffy bunny or kitten onto someone than a full grown psycho snake though. As soon as it comes out of the enclosure the buyer is going to know the truth. I also related the story about the BHP that shows I make mistakes as well, we are all only human after all. I just get annoyed with the statements that every shop is bad because there are good shops around and a lot of people on here work for them. The biggest problem is most shops hire juniors because they don't want to pay adult wages and then they don't train them properly. And that happens with all animals from fish to dogs.They also want to sell every kind of animal that they can and the staff are expected to give advise on all of them. Personally I think if NSW is going to go down that road, instant online licencing needs to be stopped. It is a lot more effort to download applications, take them to JP's, send them back in and wait. And I don't work in a pet shop, I work in an aquarium and reptile shop. As for running a tight ship, I have to or I wouldn't have a job, and that is how all good shops operate. There have been plenty of posts on APS about people neglecting animals sold to them by breeders. What do you suggest, all shops and breeders demand home visits to ensure the animal will be safe. Nice in theory but never going to happen. Maybe the governments of each state should make it harder to get a licence and demand people do courses etc. I actually think selling dogs and cats in shops is worse, don't require any kind of licence to buy a dog or cat. One thing I will say though, even though we do sell them, turtles should be put back on licence and/or shops should not be able to sell them,


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## Venomous_RBB (Dec 4, 2012)

My personal thought on this is seriously conflicted.

The pet shops around my area give really bad advice, one lady from one pet shop(as an example) thought that BHP's are "poisonous" and it kind of annoyed me for 1 that she thought BHP's are venomous and 2 because she said poisonous and was giving me lecture that BHP's should only be fed XXL rats??

Anyway, I also think it would be good for the industry however there will be a lot of impulse buying, especially since you practically get your licence in 5 mins if you do it online now.
I think it will be good if the pet shop employers and employees are taught about rep's and so they have at least some knowledge OR they should have the correct sights in a pamphlet or something that has some good sights with DECENT info - SXR's sight with all of their awesome and helpful info (Doc Rock) and there are many more.
Obviously some will read it and some will not but at least it is out there for people to read through.

Anyways, there is my 2c worth


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## Shaggz (Dec 4, 2012)

I haven't read the whole 3 pages of comment but I say that it could be a good idea to make herp keeping more recognised and mainstream. On the negative side though like any form of business there are always gonna be the rogues out there that don't care for the product just the profits. Obviously there needs to be some sort of course for these shop owners and if big enough some of their staff to learn more about the husbandry requirements.

On another note, these pet shops are going to need to get their stock from already established breeders. I think that maybe breeders approached by petshop owners should check out these shops before they agree to supply them and do regular checks before restocking supplies.


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## [email protected] (Dec 4, 2012)

it will have some advantages but i don't see that there will be much profit out come for pet shop owners.. .........It will happen cause "revenue" decc went over $$$ in last financial years budget.


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## Colin (Dec 4, 2012)

I've always wondered just how a reptile shop determines if an animal they bought yesterday and will sell to someone tomorrow has something like sunshine virus? the turnover a shop would have makes quarantine an issue in my opinion. Im neither for or against this selling of reptiles in shops in NSW but personally dont even go into pet shops let alone buy anything from them especially live aninals. just my opinion.


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## wokka (Dec 4, 2012)

I dont see any difference between private sellers and public shops selling, except that the shops have public scrutiny and we all know how the public love to point out anything which is wrong. Most shops have to have long term alliances with suppliers to protect the million dollar investments. Sure there are a few fly by nighters who buy whatevers cheapest, but that also applies to some private "breeders".


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## Wild~Touch (Dec 4, 2012)

Colin said:


> I've always wondered just how a reptile shop determines if an animal they bought yesterday and will sell to someone tomorrow has something like sunshine virus? the turnover a shop would have makes quarantine an issue in my opinion. Im neither for or against this selling of reptiles in shops in NSW but personally dont even go into pet shops let alone buy anything from them especially live aninals. just my opinion.



My sentiments exactly .... shops flog off animals to unsuspecting newcomers all the time


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## Gonemad (Dec 4, 2012)

May be this should be like gun licences?
1. Awareness training and assessment.
2. Before purchases and a permit to acquire. 

How ever this will cause trouble for breeders to get their money within a set time of waiting for a permit.
Costing will increase, but lower impulse buying.
(I hate waiting for import permits cos it stuffs everyone around).


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## Bananapeel (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, I think pet shops shouldn't actually stock live animals but instead give information then if the buyer is still interested, the shop can advise them of good breeders for the actual purchase of the animal. They should then just stock reptile supplies and care equipment etc.


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## solar 17 (Dec 4, 2012)

Colin said:


> I've always wondered just how a reptile shop determines if an animal they bought yesterday and will sell to someone tomorrow has something like sunshine virus? the turnover a shop would have makes quarantine an issue in my opinion. Im neither for or against this selling of reptiles in shops in NSW but personally dont even go into pet shops let alone buy anything from them especially live aninals. just my opinion.


Colin l agree with this sentiment but how do these viruses that have already spread with no pet shops (with reptiles yet) shadey sellers (private keepers) and poor quarantine proceedures and its amazing how many posts in this thread KNOW whats going to happen.....l personally dont purchase from petshops but l have nothing against them.......but its my experience some of our reptile specialty pet shops are staffed by keepers ON THIS SITE on the other side of the coin l wonder how keepers like myself have had private people turn up that just haven't got a clue but they know that they want a white snake or a green snake or one with blotches .......on another point l believe the allowing of reptiles into pet shops here in QLD boosted the industry 3 - 4 years here whether you think thats a price too high to pay or not is everybodies opinion.......solar 17.....ps now l think about it l believe every specialty shop has keepers that are on this site......try telling Joy and her sons (who run the Ipswich show) and print a mag that the staff have no experience in their shop


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## zulu (Dec 4, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> Yeah, I think pet shops shouldn't actually stock live animals but instead give information then if the buyer is still interested, the shop can advise them of good breeders for the actual purchase of the animal. They should then just stock reptile supplies and care equipment etc.



They could sell the pet supplies at the pet shops and people could go to the Hurstville DECC office to to pay for and pick up wildlife.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 4, 2012)

rachmoo said:


> I had someone come in the other day saying he keeps his Diamond Python in a bird cage outside with no heating, and he was going to put a gecko in with it..apparently the breeder said that they would be fine together and this is a suitable enclosure. I guess it is similar with breeders, selling some to absolute idiots and can give them the wrong information.
> I suppose I may be for the idea as long as the employees are experienced in the proper requirements to sell them with.


Are you sure he didn't mean an aviary, plenty of people keep Diamonds outside in aviaries, if your in the right area it is probably the best way to keep them as they are usually overheated. You should read up on Diamonds.


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## Gonemad (Dec 4, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> Yeah, I think pet shops shouldn't actually stock live animals but instead give information then if the buyer is still interested, the shop can advise them of good breeders for the actual purchase of the animal. They should then just stock reptile supplies and care equipment etc.


I agree BUT
I don't think this will work! As they would need to be educated and lots don't know enough about reptiles to give the right advice as that comes from years of experience and handling. if you read a lot of the the threads from older experienced breeders they still disagree with technical advice, and then pet shops or government don't make their money the breeder does.


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## ubermensch (Dec 4, 2012)

I like the idea of it.
There are plenty of pet shops in Melbourne selling reptiles that do a good job of it...and there are plenty of them that do a poor job of it.
I got my Striped Coastal from a Pet shop and she was very well cared for (and they grilled me to make sure that I had proper set ups and everything already prepared for her, keep a log of licences, etc).
It's easy to say that pet shops will stuff it all up, but there are pet shops out there that are even stuffing up simple things like cats and dogs (puppy farms, anyone?)
Unfortunately you can't regulate everything! There are always going to be dodgy cheap-asses bending the rules. OR you have problems like Blue Tongues not being on licences in Vic! I had someone at work come in a couple of weeks ago to tell me her son came home with a blue tongue...and she was asking me how long until she can turn it's light off because she's worried about her electricity bill! I printed off pages of care information and instructed her to make her son go buy proper lighting, a week later she tells me it was "too much effort" and lizards are "so boring" so he sold it...


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## Colin (Dec 4, 2012)

solar 17 said:


> Colin l agree with this sentiment but how do these viruses that have already spread with no pet shops (with reptiles yet) shadey sellers (private keepers) and poor quarantine proceedures and its amazing how many posts in this thread KNOW whats going to happen.....l personally dont purchase from petshops but l have nothing against them.......but its my experience some of our reptile specialty pet shops are staffed by keepers ON THIS SITE on the other side of the coin l wonder how keepers like myself have had private people turn up that just haven't got a clue but they know that they want a white snake or a green snake or one with blotches .......on another point l believe the allowing of reptiles into pet shops here in QLD boosted the industry 3 - 4 years here whether you think thats a price too high to pay or not is everybodies opinion.......solar 17.....ps now l think about it l believe every specialty shop has keepers that are on this site......try telling Joy and her sons (who run the Ipswich show) and print a mag that the staff have no experience in their shop



yes totally agree with you baden. these diseases have been spread by shady private sellers who would also be likely to try and palm off stock to shops as well I think. I was talking specifically about NSW as per the thread title and I agree shops like Joy's in QLD is the type of establishment that would inspire trust in buyers because the team is well aware of the problems in the industry and have tried to set the bar very high with their own shop. Its the average pet shops with no name in the industry that worry me a little. As said I am neither for or against the sale of reptiles in shops in NSW but wouldnt buy from any shops Ive seen personally in NSW. There may be good ones in NSW I don't know, but its just my personal preference to only buy animals from known breeders who I trust and never from someone I don't know.

- - - Updated - - -



Bananapeel said:


> Yeah, I think pet shops shouldn't actually stock live animals but instead give information then if the buyer is still interested, the shop can advise them of good breeders for the actual purchase of the animal. They should then just stock reptile supplies and care equipment etc.



"advise them of good breeders" sounds great in theory but in the real world breeders would be offering shops a "kick back" percentage to recommend them. they may be good breeders with good animals who knows? but I really think that most shops would be more interested in a kickback from recommending breeders and it would never be unbiased. personally I think forums like this are the best place to find good well known, well established breeders. our market feedback section is a source of information as well as looking through threads and seeing peoples animals they have personally bred over the years. looking through the "cheap for free" websites for the cheapest snakes around is not the place I would even look for anything myself..


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## FAY (Dec 4, 2012)

There is no way a shop could afford to quarantine any animals, hence shocking virus's being spread. 
Let's face it, they will only be recommending their friends as good breeders whether they are or not.


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## solar 17 (Dec 4, 2012)

FAY said:


> There is no way a shop could afford to quarantine any animals, hence shocking virus's being spread.
> Let's face it, they will only be recommending their friends as good breeders whether they are or not.


why should buying from a pet-shop be any different to buying off a reputable breeder as far as quarantine is concerned...you follow a strict set of guidelines no ifs or buts it shouldn't matter who you buy from, to say its from a reputable breeder (she'll be right) maybe it will but maybe it wont what Fay has forgot to mention is there are and have been viruses spread "BEFORE" petshops were introduced now maybe viruses will spread more speedily but its only due to poor quarintine set-ups or none, personally l don't buy from petshops but l do believe they can be an entry point into our hobby/pastime for a lot of people.....but we MUST make quarantine a part of our hobby.......personally l quarantine for 12 months plus last one fed and then wash EVERYTHING its a regime imo you just have to do.........solar 17


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## Gonemad (Dec 4, 2012)

Solar I agree with you on quarantine at home! An Important, Must, but that doesnt help the animals spreading through the shop and enclosures as i cant see them cleaning all equiptment every animal (I'm not talking all petshops and staff When i say this). I'm shore spreading problems will happen a lot quicker at some shops then from a reputable breeder.


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## rack_one (Dec 4, 2012)

Maybe they should take bookings and when the reptile arrives they just call you up for the pick up saves quarantine and I'm sure they won't be stocking much other than diamonds and carpets really so by making a order you can get the reptile u want ordering will stop impulse buying the only issue may be the price hike for proffits that's my 2 cents worth


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## Cypher69 (Dec 4, 2012)

Shaggz said:


> On another note, these pet shops are going to need to get their stock from already established breeders. I think that maybe breeders approached by petshop owners should check out these shops before they agree to supply them and do regular checks before restocking supplies.



Ideally...in a perfect world....the breeder could hire a "display space" in the pet-shop where they could have various set-ups of reptiles that's for sale. The breeder then could allocate 1 or 2 days a week where he/she would be at the pet-shop for specific sales & enquiries. I also believe reptiles & enclosures (w/heating & lighting) should be sold as a "package deal" to the novice.


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 4, 2012)

So we all think quarantine is the problem? South Australia and Victoria have been allowed to sell reptiles in shops for the best part of 20 years and Queensland has been around 10 years. In all the articles I have read about reptile "viruses" I have never read ANYWHERE about a shop being involved! So by NSW selling reptiles we are going to see a break out of disease? Please tell my why NSW is going to be so different with disease spreading than the other states. The real truth is there would only be a very small portion of "breeders" that would have a strict (if any) quarantine procedure anyway!


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## Ramsayi (Dec 4, 2012)

It would be a game of numbers.More stock coming and going through the shop the more chance of something nasty being spread.


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## zulu (Dec 4, 2012)

Amazing Amazon said:


> So we all think quarantine is the problem? South Australia and Victoria have been allowed to sell reptiles in shops for the best part of 20 years and Queensland has been around 10 years. In all the articles I have read about reptile "viruses" I have never read ANYWHERE about a shop being involved! So by NSW selling reptiles we are going to see a break out of disease? Please tell my why NSW is going to be so different with disease spreading than the other states. The real truth is there would only be a very small portion of "breeders" that would have a strict (if any) quarantine procedure anyway!



Most keepers i know these days have very small turnover espescially now with low prices, pet shops will have high turnover which increases the chances of infection.

Uncle rammer and his fly beat me to it


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## saintanger (Dec 4, 2012)

will pet shops disinfect every enclosure i doubt it
will they have to quarantine for minimum of 6 months i doubt it
will the 6 months rule apply to them, where they can't sell a reptile for 6 months i doubt it

i know there are breeders out there who do not disinfect enclosures
there are breeders who do not quarantine
and alot of people break the 6 month rule
and also breeders who keep exotics in the same room as native which makes the risk of introduced viruses higher
these breeders make me sick, but if petshops start doing it new people joining the hobby will think its ok.

i believe petshops should have the right to come out to the breeders house with an experienced person and view the conditions the reptiles are kept in before buying them. but that will never happen.

and people who have held a licence less than 12 months should not be sold a reptile unless they buy it as a package with the correct enclosure, heating, thermostat, water bowl, food and a book related to the species perchased and a caresheet. but that wont happen.


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## Allan (Dec 4, 2012)

Amazing Amazon said:


> So we all think quarantine is the problem? South Australia and Victoria have been allowed to sell reptiles in shops for the best part of 20 years and Queensland has been around 10 years. In all the articles I have read about reptile "viruses" I have never read ANYWHERE about a shop being involved! So by NSW selling reptiles we are going to see a break out of disease? Please tell my why NSW is going to be so different with disease spreading than the other states. The real truth is there would only be a very small portion of "breeders" that would have a strict (if any) quarantine procedure anyway!



Spot on, Paul.
I think it will open up and increase the hobby quite a bit.
My only concern is, as mentioned in a few posts, the capability of pet shop staff. I saw (and heard) some shockers when I lived in Brisbane. Hopefully the NPWS can get that part right.


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## Gonemad (Dec 4, 2012)

My biggest concern is it's new and everyone will want to cash in fast be the first etc, 
Unless they already know a breeder then they will buy them from backyarder whom has walked in from the street selling something caught from the bush, to the shops defense how do they know whom these people are? It's new.
All new adventures have teething problems and you have already said you purchase from same breeders, so you have had time to work out these things out.


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## zulu (Dec 4, 2012)

Allan,the NPWS are hopeless,they couldnt lay straight in bed they are just in for the$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Ramsayi (Dec 4, 2012)

saintanger said:


> i believe petshops should have the right to come out to the breeders house with an experienced person and view the conditions the reptiles are kept in before buying them. but that will never happen.



Nor should it happen.
I would have to know someone very very well for them to be able to come here.To have a shop owner come along with some experienced person,who may well be experienced but could also be the dodgiest person on the planet,no thanks.


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 4, 2012)

I also heard that there was going to be a number of reptiles that would require no license. If that is the case then that is crazy! Our opinion would be that everything should be on license from the start and can then be reviewed each year after that. It will be a free for all if no license is required on ANY animal that is native to NSW.


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## saintanger (Dec 4, 2012)

how about a dec inspector? inspect breeders before giving them a licence to sell to pet shops?


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## Ramsayi (Dec 4, 2012)

saintanger said:


> how about a dec inspector? inspect breeders before giving them a licence to sell to pet shops?



Why impose more regulations on keepers,just so shops can make some middle man money?
We already have far too many as it is.Why not get the decc to inspect all breeders regardless whether they sell privately or through pet shops?


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## zulu (Dec 4, 2012)

A Decc inspector would be like a big fly landing on one collection and spreading desease to the next .


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 4, 2012)

FAY said:


> There is no way a shop could afford to quarantine any animals, hence shocking virus's being spread.
> Let's face it, they will only be recommending their friends as good breeders whether they are or not.


We quarrantine everything!


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## Ramsayi (Dec 4, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> We quarrantine everything!



For how long and how?


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## Gonemad (Dec 4, 2012)

I cant see them going that far as they dont make any money?
But If they are feeling that generous then why not put the illegal exotic that are bred in Australia on licences to keep an eye on numbers and areas etc


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 4, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> For how long and how?


Three months is the usual unless they come from a reptutable breeder we know personally. And we tell the customers that have other animals how to quarrantine.


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## Allan (Dec 4, 2012)

zulu said:


> Allan,the NPWS are hopeless,they couldnt lay straight in bed they are just in for the$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



An Australian National park and wildlife "service" that isn't efficient, capable, knowledgeable and not looking for the $$$$?????????? You're kidding.
They might be able to squeeze out a few extra bucks from special "pet shop staff" licences


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## Ramsayi (Dec 4, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> Three months is the usual unless they come from a reptutable breeder we know personally.



So every animal that arrives at the shop is not put up for sale for 3 months but if from a trusted breeder there is no quarantine? Do you house animals from trusted breeders separately from animals that come from other sources? 
If someone came in and asked if you had such and such you would send them on their way even though you could supply them with an animal that say came in a week ago?


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## zulu (Dec 4, 2012)

I imagine that some of the bigger shops would get a dealers license ,they will buy whole clutches at the cheapest price, in one day and out the next thats what a dealers license enables you to do and thy will be done

Yahooo $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## JasonL (Dec 4, 2012)

Amazing Amazon said:


> I also heard that there was going to be a number of reptiles that would require no license. If that is the case then that is crazy! Our opinion would be that everything should be on license from the start and can then be reviewed each year after that. It will be a free for all if no license is required on ANY animal that is native to NSW.



Bearded Dragons deaths will be so high that just the staff needed to process the paperwork will sink the whole organisation, plus they don't have enough filing cabinets to store all the paperwork.


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## bowss (Dec 4, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> We quarrantine everything!


This would have to be the biggest load of rubbish I have read in a long time! For one what is 3 months going to prevent you from catching? Secondly do you house these animals on a different premises?


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## saintanger (Dec 4, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> Why impose more regulations on keepers,just so shops can make some middle man money?
> We already have far too many as it is.Why not get the decc to inspect all breeders regardless whether they sell privately or through pet shops?



i know its not fair to impose more regulations on keepers/ breeders. but any keeper would be happy to do it as long as its for the reptiles welfare (to make sure only top quality reptiles who are looked after properly and quarantined get sold to pet shops to lower the risk of deaths). decc should inspect all breeders regardless but those that wanna sell to pet shops should get a visit related to that.

i know we all dislike decc visits, i do too. but if i wanted to sell to petshops i would like them to visit and see that the reptiles are well looked after and are top quality and that quarantine procedures are followed. and that i also don't keep exotics so there is less chance of foreign viruses being spread.

and if i were to buy a reptile from a petshop i'd like to know that its coming from a clean collection.


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Dec 4, 2012)

How much extra would it cost for licencing if they had to send inspectors to every breeder? Its already costly and at the moment they don't seem to do Jack.


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## rachmoo (Dec 4, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> Are you sure he didn't mean an aviary, plenty of people keep Diamonds outside in aviaries, if your in the right area it is probably the best way to keep them as they are usually overheated. You should read up on Diamonds.



nope, a small bird cage...and it was a full grown python. I have read up on Diamonds..i'm the reptile specialist in my store..


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## Colin (Dec 4, 2012)

who in their right mind would buy a reptile from 90% (maybe more) of the pet shops in the country in the first place? :lol:


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## Stevo2 (Dec 4, 2012)

All the other States and Territories seem to manage selling reptiles in shops OK, what's the big fuss?


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## ubermensch (Dec 4, 2012)

....when I get a new reptile I like to enforce quarantine, but damned if they're not kept on the same premises! I'm sorry, but I can't get a whole new house just because of quarantine. They're kept in a separate room, and I'm careful about scrubbing down and disinfecting.
As it has been said, Vic has been selling reptiles in shops for years with NO influx of diseases.
Everyone has their own "do or do not do" with quarantine but a minimum of 3 months sounds fine to me.


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## Justdragons (Dec 4, 2012)

Here in SA there is a few reptile stores and i think its great.. there is so many ‘what if’s’ going around this thread but to be honest it would be a good thing.. pet shops buy from breeders and breeders supply care sheets and stock cards and a phone number for people who need advice. Breeders would be doing better and I would hope the shops selling reptiles would be watched by the governing body for the state and regulated for quality. 

Here the reptile stores on the most part are great. I know people who just take the kids there to watch the feedings on a sat and others who go there religiously for foods and supplies.. the amount of times Jason at reptile city has helped me in a crisis from incubating eggs to sick animals. Its great.. 

There are some restaurant the kill people through food poisoning but it doesn’t mean you should only be able to make food at home.. There is just harsh penalties.. as there should be for anyone who is not caring for animals in a shop properly.


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## Cypher69 (Dec 4, 2012)

Like unwanted puppies & kittens, I'm guessing NSW RSPCA better get geared up to take in unwanted reptiles once they get too big or kids get bitten the first time they handle a snake.


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## Stevo2 (Dec 4, 2012)

Something new/Change is always scary at first.....

- - - Updated - - -



Cypher69 said:


> Like unwanted puppies & kittens, I'm guessing NSW RSPCA better get geared up to take in unwanted reptiles once they get too big or kids get bitten the first time they handle a snake.



Why? They dont take all the unwanted parrots that get aggressive when they reach maturity or the noisy ones......


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## Cypher69 (Dec 4, 2012)

Stevo2 said:


> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Why? They dont take all the unwanted parrots that get aggressive when they reach maturity or the noisy ones......



Ok-sorry for being optimistic towards the fate of unwanted reptiles...I guess snakes will be easier to flush down toilets instead.


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## zulu (Dec 4, 2012)

I am guessing that DECC will make it harder to sell reptiles privately,they have already closed us out of a few places most non NSW people use.
To sell reptiles to a pet store would not be an option for me as they would not pay enough.
They have the reptile keeping minimum standards back up with "must " so they have something coming.
Suppliers that think they will make money are fooling themselves , farmers always get squeezed ,onley shops and government will proffit.


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## Stuart (Dec 4, 2012)

Im concerned about the day that uneducated keepers who keep wondering into pet stores asking for "pretty snakes" and pressuring the relative States and Territories to question their rules on exotics. Doubt it will happen, but stranger things have occured.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 4, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> So every animal that arrives at the shop is not put up for sale for 3 months but if from a trusted breeder there is no quarantine? Do you house animals from trusted breeders separately from animals that come from other sources?
> If someone came in and asked if you had such and such you would send them on their way even though you could supply them with an animal that say came in a week ago?



Yes to the first question in a separate room at the other end of the shop. Animals from said breeders are put into the main reptile room but only put up for sale when I am satisfied they are eating well for me. I would send them away and offer them a chance to come back when the animal is ready which is not usually a problem to first time buyers but can lead to losing a sale with others. Many people are happy to layby the animal and complete set-up and it gives them a little time to save up. Just to clarify the set-up thing, I tell all buyers of juvie snakes to house them in a click clack.


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## dangles (Dec 4, 2012)

zulu said:


> I am guessing that DECC will make it harder to sell reptiles privately,they have already closed us out of a few places most non NSW people use.
> To sell reptiles to a pet store would not be an option for me as they would not pay enough.
> They have the reptile keeping minimum standards back up with "must " so they have something coming.
> Suppliers that think they will make money are fooling themselves , farmers always get squeezed ,onley shops and government will proffit.


but with this new legislation coming in, reptile stores will be able to advertise as will we


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## hayden123113 (Dec 4, 2012)

dangles has got a good point it will be alot easier to sell our reptiles now with advertising, you could just put in on the local corkboard down at the shoping centre.


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## thomasssss (Dec 4, 2012)

saintanger said:


> in NSW a 2 year pensioner licence is $50 and full price is $63. that will not stop impulse buying. also i doubt pet shops will inform buyers wen they get their licence that they are subject to random visits from DEC for inspections.


probably not but you barely here of people who get checked anyway, i remember a thread that happened here ages ago asking if anyone had been checked , from memory only a few had and they where all from WA


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## reptilezac (Dec 4, 2012)

i really hope they let pet stores in nsw sell reptiles it be a great boost for the hobby )


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## apprenticegnome (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm against the idea. I feel it will create reptile factories similiar to puppy factories. Someone who constantly churns out bulk reptiles to sell to pet stores for a quick sale. Good ethical treatment and practices tend to slip with some of these people in search of the mighty dollar which then reflects poorly on the hobby. In a hobby that is so heavily weighed down in rules we need to reduce the potential of having private ownership restrictions being increased. Look at Pitbulls for an example of bad practices restricting ownership.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 4, 2012)

apprenticegnome said:


> I'm against the idea. I feel it will create reptile factories similiar to puppy factories. Someone who constantly churns out bulk reptiles to sell to pet stores for a quick sale. Good ethical treatment and practices tend to slip with some of these people in search of the mighty dollar which then reflects poorly on the hobby. In a hobby that is so heavily weighed down in rules we need to reduce the potential of having private ownership restrictions being increased. Look at Pitbulls for an example of bad practices restricting ownership.


I think you'll find they already exist, for example ALL short neck turtle babies in petshops in Vic and SA come from the one wholesale turtle farm. A lot of other animals come from a very well known and not very reputable wholesaler. We refuse to buy off them anymore as when animals were purchased from them prior to me working there they were not eating properly or at all.


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## bk201 (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah i went on holidays to Qld and a petshops "reptile guy" tried selling me a snake for $300 was a one week old spotted python even though i've never kept one before...i also told him i'm from NSW and only here for another week he insisted that's okay and told me i should buy it from him right now...i laughed at him and walked away...My local "reptile" shops try to sell $500 large enclosures to people wanting hatchlings, heatrocks for water dragons, heatlights for geckos...seriously the government is bound to screw it up.


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## wokka (Dec 5, 2012)

I cant believe that these shops have the power to turn good snakes into bad; good keepers into bad keepers or good buyers into bad buyers.At the end of the day they will be the same buyers of the same snakes. They will merely be provided an alternative to lurking around the McDonald carparks trying to find these illusive breeders. I remember how hard it was to find reptiles when I first started, between NPWS saying you cant advertise and breeders wishing to "fly under the radar". Of course some buyers will prefer to buy from a long term business with a public reputation to lose, but there will still be those who only care about price and petshops wont be able to compete with that. If breeders cant compete, when in general they dont pay tax, rent or labour then they should give up.


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## Monitors_R_Us (Dec 5, 2012)

Stevo2 said:


> All the other States and Territories seem to manage selling reptiles in shops OK, what's the big fuss?


Exactly, once it comes into place you can bet no one will even have noticed haha.


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## Justdragons (Dec 5, 2012)

lol you will still need a license and i doubt every pet shop is going to want to sell herps.. on the other hand im sure there is breeders/ reptile keepers who have been itching to own a reptile shop for years... now is your chance.. i dont see why everyone thinks that every pet store is going to rush out and get snakes to sell. most people are scared of snakes and it wont be their best seller. Here there is a few reptile shops and 1 or 2 pet stores i know of ands they only sell beardies..


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## Anunnaki (Dec 5, 2012)

wokka said:


> I cant believe that these shops have the power to turn good snakes into bad; good keepers into bad keepers or good buyers into bad buyers.At the end of the day they will be the same buyers of the same snakes. They will merely be provided an alternative to lurking around the McDonald carparks trying to find these illusive breeders. I remember how hard it was to find reptiles when I first started, between NPWS saying you cant advertise and breeders wishing to "fly under the radar". Of course some buyers will prefer to buy from a long term business with a public reputation to lose, but there will still be those who only care about price and petshops wont be able to compete with that. If breeders cant compete, when in general they dont pay tax, rent or labour then they should give up.



I would much rather "lurk around" McDonalds car parks to buy a reptile from an established breeder who can be vouched for and has a name for themselves rather than buying from a petshop where the origins of the reptiles may be questionable at best. And of course the price is a major factor in my reptile buying decisions, why would I pay $1000 for an animal which I can get from a private breeder of the same quality for $500? It's just common sense really.


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## zulu (Dec 5, 2012)

wokka said:


> I cant believe that these shops have the power to turn good snakes into bad; good keepers into bad keepers or good buyers into bad buyers.At the end of the day they will be the same buyers of the same snakes. They will merely be provided an alternative to lurking around the McDonald carparks trying to find these illusive breeders. I remember how hard it was to find reptiles when I first started, between NPWS saying you cant advertise and breeders wishing to "fly under the radar". Of course some buyers will prefer to buy from a long term business with a public reputation to lose, but there will still be those who only care about price and petshops wont be able to compete with that. If breeders cant compete, when in general they dont pay tax, rent or labour then they should give up.



I can see in this thread why i oppose some like jamie (pythoninfinite) and warrick (Wokka) representing my interests as a hobbyist on committees to DECCW.


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## Stevo2 (Dec 5, 2012)

There's nothing stopping anyone from continuing their current practices of buying from breeders......


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## zulu (Dec 5, 2012)

Stevo2 said:


> There's nothing stopping anyone from continuing their current practices of buying from breeders......



At the moment ,might change though


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## caliherp (Dec 5, 2012)

zulu said:


> At the moment ,might change though


What makes you think it will change? Here in America both large pet store chains and breeding facilities like BHB are alive and well?


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## ubermensch (Dec 5, 2012)

zulu said:


> At the moment ,might change though



Why would it change?
We've had herps selling in pet shops for years...I still bought my Diamond off cement!
Similarly I purchased my Striped Coastal from a reptile/aquarium shop who really knew their stuff and provided paperwork to keep with my licence.
It's not going to all fall apart and die just because pet shops can sell reptiles in NSW now.


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## thomasssss (Dec 5, 2012)

zulu said:


> At the moment ,might change though


it will not change that statement is laughable


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## caliherp (Dec 5, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> it will not change that statement is laughable


It really is. I have kept reptiles for 16 years now and have only bought one reptile from a pet store. That was 12 years ago. There will always be a demand for quality animals. Don't get me wrong there are quite a few speciality reptile shops here in the u.s aswell as Australia, but they are few and far inbetween. Pet shops are great for exposing newcomers to our hobby. But they will soon realize the worth of privet breeders.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 5, 2012)

zulu said:


> At the moment ,might change though



I agree. Let's be honest, the government doesn't give 2 hoots about reptiles or their welfare all they care about is money. Imagine the revenue they will be making when they allow pet shops to start selling reptiles, not only will they be charging shops the exorbitant amount for the right to sell them but the influx of new licenses that will come from it.
As with all things regarding the government the ones who bring in the most revenue have the most sway, it will only be a matter of time before the pet shops start to see how much money they are losing to the private trade and start complaining and demanding.

I honestly can't understand why any avid reptile keeper would support the selling of reptiles in shops, we see enough exploitation of reptiles in the private trade yet alone on a commercial scale. Time for the government to grow a set and stop giving in to demands simply because it will produce revenue.


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## caliherp (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> I agree. Let's be honest, the government doesn't give 2 hoots about reptiles or their welfare all they care about is money. Imagine the revenue they will be making when they allow pet shops to start selling reptiles, not only will they be charging shops the exorbitant amount for the right to sell them but the influx of new licenses that will come from it.
> As with all things regarding the government the ones who bring in the most revenue have the most sway, it will only be a matter of time before the pet shops start to see how much money they are losing to the private trade and start complaining and demanding.
> 
> I honestly can't understand why any avid reptile keeper would support the selling of reptiles in shops, we see enough exploitation of reptiles in the private trade yet alone on a commercial scale. Time for the government to grow a set and stop giving in to demands simply because it will produce revenue.


You all could creat the Australian version of USARK(United States Assoation of Reptile keepers). The AARK. 

United States Association of Reptile Keepers


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> I agree. Let's be honest, the government doesn't give 2 hoots about reptiles or their welfare all they care about is money. Imagine the revenue they will be making when they allow pet shops to start selling reptiles, not only will they be charging shops the exorbitant amount for the right to sell them but the influx of new licenses that will come from it.
> As with all things regarding the government the ones who bring in the most revenue have the most sway, it will only be a matter of time before the pet shops start to see how much money they are losing to the private trade and start complaining and demanding.
> 
> I honestly can't understand why any avid reptile keeper would support the selling of reptiles in shops, we see enough exploitation of reptiles in the private trade yet alone on a commercial scale. Time for the government to grow a set and stop giving in to demands simply because it will produce revenue.


That is absolute rubbish. For a start off we are not allowed to sell advanced licence species in shops in Victoria and as it is a lot stricter when it comes to upgrading to advanced in NSW, I would say the same would apply there. It is also not common to find rarer basic licence species in shops here and if you do find them it is generally because the shop or someone that works there breeds them. There will always be a place for private breeders. I have bought way more animals from breeders than through the shop and as my collection is at the stage where I am after very specific thing s now, I am unlikely to find what I am looking for in a shop. Then there are the breeders that buy equipment and food off us and supply animals to us. It is cutting our own throats to try and get rid of private breeders.


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## zulu (Dec 5, 2012)

There is a few things they could do to restrict hobbyists ,like bring in a breeders license.
My guess is if they ever go for the selling of reptiles in petshops they will be selling expensive licenses to so which would basically be dealers licenses to buy and then sell straight away without the 6 months wait.
I expect they would back them up as they do in WA ,that wonderful system that they have over there, just never know.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 5, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> That is absolute rubbish. For a start off we are not allowed to sell advanced licence species in shops in Victoria and as it is a lot stricter when it comes to upgrading to advanced in NSW, I would say the same would apply there. It is also not common to find rarer basic licence species in shops here and if you do find them it is generally because the shop or someone that works there breeds them. There will always be a place for private breeders. I have bought way more animals from breeders than through the shop and as my collection is at the stage where I am after very specific thing s now, I am unlikely to find what I am looking for in a shop.



Sorry but what do VIC laws have to do with NSW? Our private licensing is completely different so what would make you assume that the commercial license would be the same?
Your remarks are filled with "I","I","I"...we aren't talking about you or the pet shop shop you work at we are talking about a brand new licensing system for a brand new sector of commercial selling.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 5, 2012)

It will most likely have a huge impact on not just breeders but also keepers in general.

The entire mandatory cage size debacle is a direct result of pets shops being allowed to sell reptiles.As I understand it another government department DPI will also be involved so we all may end up with 2 departments imposing new restrictions on us all.


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## caliherp (Dec 5, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> There will always be a place for private breeders. I have bought way more animals from breeders than through the shop and as my collection is at the stage where I am after very specific thing s now, I am unlikely to find what I am looking for in a shop. Then there are the breeders that buy equipment and food off us and supply animals to us. It is cutting our own throats to try and get rid of private breeders.


Bingo! The more newbies that get lured in by the pet shops will eventually want "specific" reptiles they won't find in shops. Pet shops can and will help the hobby in Australia. As long as the government doesn't get involved?(don't quote me on that)


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## Stevo2 (Dec 5, 2012)

I suspect that it's going to mark the end of the world.


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## Justdragons (Dec 5, 2012)

caliherp said:


> Bingo! The more newbies that get lured in by the pet shops will eventually want "specific" reptiles they won't find in shops. Pet shops can and will help the hobby in Australia. As long as the government doesn't get involved?(don't quote me on that)



Lol

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You know what i think would boost the hobby here... being able to export animals over seas... NO IMPORTS HOWEVER.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> Sorry but what do VIC laws have to do with NSW? Our private licensing is completely different so what would make you assume that the commercial license would be the same?
> Your remarks are filled with "I","I","I"...we aren't talking about you or the pet shop shop you work at we are talking about a brand new licensing system for a brand new sector of commercial selling.


I used to live in NSW, I am well aware of the licencing laws there. Sorry used the I word again. Don't get crabby with me because I disagree with what you say. As stated, licencing is stricter in NSW for private keepers so it could be assumed it would be even worse for commercial entities. Try reading the post properly next time.The main reason advanced species can't be purchased in shops in Vic is so people are not able to sell vens and potentially put the public at risk, cannot see it being any different there so unless you actually have some insider information to the contrary your argument is null and void. It would also be unlikely that breeders with unique and expensive animals would sell to shops either so also unlikely that private breeders will be destroyed, on the contrary, it will be an avenue for selling common hard to move animals. Most people that are starting out with reptiles don't have any idea how to find breeders and it is better to buy from a shop with knowledgeable staff than buy of gumtree and get a neglected and possibly unhealthy animal. Attacking someone personally is always a great strategy when losing an argument.


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## thomasssss (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> As with all things regarding the government the ones who bring in the most revenue have the most sway, it will only be a matter of time before the pet shops start to see how much money they are losing to the private trade and start complaining and demanding.
> .



why is it that the reptile hobby will be any different from dogs , cats birds , fish you name it , have pet shops demanded to outlaw your average dog breeder or any of those i named , come on people use some common sense 

on the same point why will nsw be any different to QLD or VIC , private breeders there haven't faded away or had any breeding restrictions put in place just because the pet shops demanded it because they lost profit to them 

i bet you lot believe the worlds coming to an end and 911 is all a big conspiracy


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## Anunnaki (Dec 5, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> I used to live in NSW, I am well aware of the licencing laws there. Sorry used the I word again. Don't get crabby with me because I disagree with what you say. As stated, licencing is stricter in NSW for private keepers so it could be assumed it would be even worse for commercial entities. Try reading the post properly next time.The main reason advanced species can't be purchased in shops in Vic is so people are not able to sell vens and potentially put the public at risk, cannot see it being any different there so unless you actually have some insider information to the contrary your argument is null and void. It would also be unlikely that breeders with unique and expensive animals would sell to shops either so also unlikely that private breeders will be destroyed, on the contrary, it will be an avenue for selling common hard to move animals. Most people that are starting out with reptiles don't have any idea how to find breeders and it is better to buy from a shop with knowledgeable staff than buy of gumtree and get a neglected and possibly unhealthy animal. Attacking someone personally is always a great strategy when losing an argument.




You seem to contradict yourself. So you believe NSW will follow similar laws to VIC right? I quote _"it will be an avenue for selling common hard to move animals"_(your own words) Please explain when animals like keelbacks,slatey greys,painted dragons,green tree snakes,mangrove monitors, mertens water monitors, hosmer's skinks etc became "_common hard to move animals_"? Perhaps you should have a look at the Amazing amazon website and see their current livestock for sale....Not a single one of those animals is not what I would call common. Do you personally know how often a young D. punctulata is meant to feed? Do you know the methods of enticing this species to eat for themselves or how to force feed? I doubt you do and I doubt the general public would be up to the task to try to perform these methods. 
Do you know about the hosmer's communal living habits? 

My point is that nobody knows as much about a species as a longtime keeper/breeder does. You can read all of the books and forum posts you like but it accounts for absolutely nothing compared to real life experience! So to sit there and try to tell someone like myself who has kept a few of these species that a cashier who has read a few paragraphs from books is as knowledgeable as a breeder is laughable. The hours that go in to some of the above species is astronomical as anyone who has worked with them will know.
But I'm sure you know all of the procedures that go along with all the above species since they can legally be sold commercially in your state

- - - Updated - - -



thomasssss said:


> why is it that the reptile hobby will be any different from dogs , cats birds , fish you name it , have pet shops demanded to outlaw your average dog breeder or any of those i named , come on people use some common sense
> 
> on the same point why will nsw be any different to QLD or VIC , private breeders there haven't faded away or had any breeding restrictions put in place just because the pet shops demanded it because they lost profit to them
> 
> i bet you lot believe the worlds coming to an end and 911 is all a big conspiracy



Are cats, fish, dogs etc protected? I don't think they are mate.
As long as they are not a LISTED noxious species or on CITES they are completely legal


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## Chris (Dec 5, 2012)

Another quality thread. From someone who lives in a state where the laws are as 'relaxed' as anywhere in Australia, personally I can't see what some of you are worried about. Little will change. The sun will still come up tomorrow.


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## thomasssss (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> Are cats, fish, dogs etc protected? I don't think they are mate.
> As long as they are not a LISTED noxious species or on CITES they are completely legal


no but you still haven't answered why it will be any different to QLD and VIC in regards to private breeders dying out and pet shops making demands and complaining 

WHY WILL NSW BE ANY DIFFERENT TO QLD , WHERE PRIVATE BREEDERS STILL FLOURISH , answer that please dont just tippy toe around the question


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## Red-Ink (Dec 5, 2012)

Petshop or breeder.... _Caveat emptor _


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## ubermensch (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> You seem to contradict yourself. So you believe NSW will follow similar laws to VIC right? I quote _"it will be an avenue for selling common hard to move animals"_(your own words) Please explain when animals like keelbacks,slatey greys,painted dragons,green tree snakes,mangrove monitors, mertens water monitors, hosmer's skinks etc became "_common hard to move animals_"? Perhaps you should have a look at the Amazing amazon website and see their current livestock for sale....Not a single one of those animals is not what I would call common. Do you personally know how often a young D. punctulata is meant to feed? Do you know the methods of enticing this species to eat for themselves or how to force feed? I doubt you do and I doubt the general public would be up to the task to try to perform these methods.
> Do you know about the hosmer's communal living habits?
> 
> My point is that nobody knows as much about a species as a longtime keeper/breeder does. You can read all of the books and forum posts you like but it accounts for absolutely nothing compared to real life experience! So to sit there and try to tell someone like myself who has kept a few of these species that a cashier who has read a few paragraphs from books is as knowledgeable as a breeder is laughable. The hours that go in to some of the above species is astronomical as anyone who has worked with them will know.
> ...



I'm sorry, but Amazing Amazon are a specialist shop. They cannot even be _compared_ because they have deliberately set themselves above regular pet shops in Victoria!
I believe we're talking about your run-of-the-mill petshops in this thread...of which would only sell basic and small amounts of reptiles (much like the ones in VIC....)


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## Gonemad (Dec 5, 2012)

*Don't shot me!*
I feel this is a thread that we will all have to agree to disagree!
Lots of great threads for and against.
Nsw will get permission to sell whether we like it or not.
If all shops run their business like Amazing Amazon then there would be less arguments on the subjects.
I think breeders still have the upper hand due to selling prices to pet shops.


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## mcbuggsy (Dec 5, 2012)

I have been out of the discussion loop regarding sale of reptiles in pet shops but it was discussed with NPWS at a Herp Society discussion a few (maybe even 4) years ago. PIJAC (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council) have I believe been lobbying State Government for year over what they saw as restricting trade.They were allowed to sell all the equipment they wanted but no animals.And they also brought up the fact that you can buy from shops in other states etc. I think (not sure where decision is at at the moment) that NPWS was going to restrict trade to common, easy to keep animals (perhaps no frogs etc) and that only a few premises were going to be capable of being retailers.
I also heard a rumour that some reptiles will be able to be kept unlicensed as they did with some native birds many years ago (the 42 species rule) thanks Jeff Hardy.
It will be interesting I think but certainly not the end of the world for true enthusiastic herpos.
Unfortunately all these machinations have taken place behind closed doors after they sought advice from the AHS years ago. I think they didn't like the advice they received and are "doing it their way"......
Will be interesting to see what happens.......
(and then again I could be completely wrong ha ha ha)

- - - Updated - - -

Also if the premises are of the quality of the likes of Amazing Amazon in Victoria then I think it would be a good thing. Maybe theres an opportunity for some of us to go into business...


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> You seem to contradict yourself. So you believe NSW will follow similar laws to VIC right? I quote _"it will be an avenue for selling common hard to move animals"_(your own words) Please explain when animals like keelbacks,slatey greys,painted dragons,green tree snakes,mangrove monitors, mertens water monitors, hosmer's skinks etc became "_common hard to move animals_"? Perhaps you should have a look at the Amazing amazon website and see their current livestock for sale....Not a single one of those animals is not what I would call common. Do you personally know how often a young D. punctulata is meant to feed? Do you know the methods of enticing this species to eat for themselves or how to force feed? I doubt you do and I doubt the general public would be up to the task to try to perform these methods.
> Do you know about the hosmer's communal living habits?
> 
> My point is that nobody knows as much about a species as a longtime keeper/breeder does. You can read all of the books and forum posts you like but it accounts for absolutely nothing compared to real life experience! So to sit there and try to tell someone like myself who has kept a few of these species that a cashier who has read a few paragraphs from books is as knowledgeable as a breeder is laughable. The hours that go in to some of the above species is astronomical as anyone who has worked with them will know.
> ...



Um, maybe you should do something other than look at a website, AA do not sell green tree pythons as they are on advanced licence, try opening the link next time. As for the other things they sell, if you read my post carefully, you will see I said it would be an avenue for breeders to sell common animals they cant move. As for the other species, many of them are bred and kept by people that work in the store. No one claimed to know as much as a long time keeper/breeder does about all species. No one knows everything about all species, including you. As I have been keeping for 15+ years though, I think I know a fair bit more than the average first reptile owner. Any good shop would also have a network of experienced keepers/breeders and a reputable reptile vet to call upon for help. As for having to get things eating, been there done that, not with CTS but with other snakes, that is to do with irresponsible morons selling on animals that don't eat well or haven't started feeding. We, and I assume most reputable shops, don't buy non feeding animals but just like a person that buys from a private breeder we can get conned occasionally and end up with difficult feeders. It's also about being able to draw information out of prospective buyers and ascertain their experience level, and before you ask, no we would not sell a species with specialist care requirements to a novice. Not going to go into what I can and can't do as but suffice it to say I know my limits and when to ask for help. You can doubt all you want but singling people out you get a bee in your bonnet about wont win you any friends, especially when backed up with inaccurate information.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 5, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> Um, maybe you should do something other than look at a website, AA do not sell green tree pythons as they are on advanced licence, try opening the link next time. As for the other things they sell, if you read my post carefully, you will see I said it would be an avenue for breeders to sell common animals they cant move. As for the other species, many of them are bred and kept by people that work in the store. No one claimed to know as much as a long time keeper/breeder does about all species. No one knows everything about all species, including you. As I have been keeping for 15+ years though, I think I know a fair bit more than the average first reptile owner. Any good shop would also have a network of experienced keepers/breeders and a reputable reptile vet to call upon for help. As for having to get things eating, been there done that, not with CTS but with other snakes, that is to do with irresponsible morons selling on animals that don't eat well or haven't started feeding. We, and I assume most reputable shops, don't buy non feeding animals but just like a person that buys from a private breeder we can get conned occasionally and end up with difficult feeders. It's also about being able to draw information out of prospective buyers and ascertain their experience level, and before you ask, no we would not sell a species with specialist care requirements to a novice. Not going to go into what I can and can't do as but suffice it to say I know my limits and when to ask for help. You can doubt all you want but singling people out you get a bee in your bonnet about wont win you any friends, especially when backed up with inaccurate information.





KaotikJezta said:


> Um, maybe you should do something other than look at a website, AA do not sell green tree pythons



Where did I mention M. viridis? Green tree pythons and Green tree snakes are two different species.

So you agree that a longtime keeper/breeder would be more experienced but still claimed a cashier at a pet shop is a better source of information than gumtree....which a lot of people use to sell animals.

I'm not going to continue this discussion, there really is no point when the person you are arguing with keeps contradicting themselves....or claims to be knowledgeable yet can't ascertain the different between M. viridis and D. punctulata.

Thanks for the laugh.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> Where did I mention M. viridis? Green tree pythons and Green tree snakes are two different species.
> 
> So you agree that a longtime keeper/breeder would be more experienced but still claimed a cashier at a pet shop is a better source of information than gumtree....which a lot of people use to sell animals.
> 
> ...


My bad, I did read that wrong. At least I can admit it. You seem to have a real hang up with me, I already said in previous post that there is a BIG difference between a specialist reptile shop and a pet shop and you clearly have never worked in a specialist shop or you would know there is a lot more to it than being a cashier. As for gumtree, yes a few decent breeders sell on gumtree but so do a lot of other people that wouldn't have the first clue. A long time keeper and an employee/owner of a reptile store are not necessarily mutually exclusive.


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## thomasssss (Dec 5, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> no but you still haven't answered why it will be any different to QLD and VIC in regards to private breeders dying out and pet shops making demands and complaining
> 
> WHY WILL NSW BE ANY DIFFERENT TO QLD , WHERE PRIVATE BREEDERS STILL FLOURISH , answer that please dont just tippy toe around the question





Anunnaki said:


> Where did I mention M. viridis? Green tree pythons and Green tree snakes are two different species.
> 
> So you agree that a longtime keeper/breeder would be more experienced but still claimed a cashier at a pet shop is a better source of information than gumtree....which a lot of people use to sell animals.
> 
> ...


what i find funny is that you didnt answer my above question , its the one in capital letters , im not surprised really as thats what alot of people do here , they will argue on the points that they want to but when someone poses a question that is hard for them to answer and kinda destroys their argument they just ignore it 

i asked you not to tippy toe around that question and its exactly what you did  typical , and you will probably do it again now , at least thanks to the notification function notifying you of this post i know that you will still see it


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 5, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> what i find funny is that you didnt answer my above question , its the one in capital letters , im not surprised really as thats what alot of people do here , they will argue on the points that they want to but when someone poses a question that is hard for them to answer and kinda destroys their argument they just ignore it
> 
> i asked you not to tippy toe around that question and its exactly what you did  typical , and you will probably do it again now , at least thanks to the notification function notifying you of this post i know that you will still see it



I think he/she is putting too much effort into trying to belittle me to answer anyone else.


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## thomasssss (Dec 5, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> I think he/she is putting too much effort into trying to belittle me to answer anyone else.


maybe but the reality of it is that that question destroys his argument that private breeders will die off due to pet shops demands , it didn't happen in qld or vic , why the hell is it going to happen in nsw , thats why i think he avoided my question imo just like i thought he would


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## PieBald (Dec 5, 2012)

So is this all reptiles big and small cause in old you can only have anterasia and small lizards

- - - Updated - - -

So is this all reptiles big and small cause in old you can only have anterasia and small lizards


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## Anunnaki (Dec 5, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> maybe but the reality of it is that that question destroys his argument that private breeders will die off due to pet shops demands , it didn't happen in qld or vic , why the hell is it going to happen in nsw , thats why i think he avoided my question imo just like i thought he would



Where did I say it would "kill off" breeders? Go back and read my posts.
Then google "protected fauna" then google "Cites list and Noxious list" and then you will see how irrelevant your argument is.

I'm talking about licensing conditions and the welfare of the animals. Would be nice if you read the posts before jumping in with a redundant and childish question as you did.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> Where did I say it would "kill off" breeders? Go back and read my posts.
> Then google "protected fauna" then google "Cites list and Noxious list" and then you will see how irrelevant your argument is.
> 
> I'm talking about licensing conditions and the welfare of the animals. Would be nice if you read the posts before jumping in with a redundant and childish question as you did.



When zulu expressed that it would see the end of people buying from private breeders, not only did you agree, you gave this reply 

"_As with all things regarding the government the ones who bring in the most revenue have the most sway, it will only be a matter of time before the pet shops start to see how much money they are losing to the private trade and start complaining and demanding." _


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## Anunnaki (Dec 5, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> When zulu expressed that it would see the end of people buying from private breeders, not only did you agree, you gave this reply
> 
> "_As with all things regarding the government the ones who bring in the most revenue have the most sway, it will only be a matter of time before the pet shops start to see how much money they are losing to the private trade and start complaining and demanding." _



Which was in regards to licensing...it's quite obvious.
I think you are a little upset because you didn't know the difference between a python and a colubrid:cry:


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 5, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> Which was in regards to licensing...it's quite obvious.
> I think you are a little upset because you didn't know the difference between a python and a colubrid:cry:



Considering I used to live in an area of Northern NSW where they were quite tree snakes were quite prolific I am pretty sure I do, but of course you know more about me than I do so maybe not. I guess your a wealth of knowledge with google at your fingertips.


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## wokka (Dec 5, 2012)

At the moment many NSW breeders sell to dealers in other states, who then export the individual animals back to buyers in the states where the animals were originally bred, It seems a waste and unecessary trauma. I expect if pet shop sales are allowed they will be restricted to a few committed shops with the necessary credentials. What is the latest guess of what is going to happen? Has there been any official word or is everyone jumping at shadows?

- - - Updated - - -



zulu said:


> I can see in this thread why i oppose some like jamie (pythoninfinite) and warrick (Wokka) representing my interests as a hobbyist on committees to DECCW.


Committees need to include people who can consider the facts unemotionally and their effect on the hobby as a whole, rather than just representing only your interests. It would be a little pointless if everyone in a committee held the same view. My experience with DECCW Committees is that any decision DECCW makes in regard to petshops has not been discussed with hobbiest representatives. I believe the pet industry's PIAA has had some discussions with DECCW.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 5, 2012)

wokka said:


> Committees need to include people who can consider the facts unemotionally and their effect on the hobby as a whole, rather than just representing only your interests. It would be a little pointless if everyone in a committee held the same view.



The trouble with these committees is that the only agendas that get pushed are the ones the committee members hold.When representing reptile societies the position of those members should be the ones being forwarded.


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## wokka (Dec 5, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> The trouble with these committees is that the only agendas that get pushed are the ones the committee members hold.When representing reptile societies the position of those members should be the ones being forwarded.


 The trouble with recent DECCW advisory committees is that unfortunately DECCW choses to ignore them when the committees views differred from that of DECCW.


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## Monitors_R_Us (Dec 5, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> I think he/she is putting too much effort into trying to belittle me to answer anyone else.


I think you did that well enough yourself tbh.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 6, 2012)

Monitors_R_Us said:


> I think you did that well enough yourself tbh.



Oh well. we're all entitled to our opinions


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## wokka (Dec 6, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> I agree. Let's be honest, the government doesn't give 2 hoots about reptiles or their welfare all they care about is money. Imagine the revenue they will be making when they allow pet shops to start selling reptiles, not only will they be charging shops the exorbitant amount for the right to sell them but the influx of new licenses that will come from it.
> As with all things regarding the government the ones who bring in the most revenue have the most sway, it will only be a matter of time before the pet shops start to see how much money they are losing to the private trade and start complaining and demanding.
> 
> I honestly can't understand why any avid reptile keeper would support the selling of reptiles in shops, we see enough exploitation of reptiles in the private trade yet alone on a commercial scale. Time for the government to grow a set and stop giving in to demands simply because it will produce revenue.


Governments tend to be swayed by votes rather than money. Do you think they would favour few hundred petshops over tens of thousands of keepers? If or When reptiles are allowed in petshops it will be because the Government thinks more voters support it than oppose it. I doubt that a few thousand dollars in licence fees will influence the decision either way. I would think that strict standards will be required for petshops to display or sell reptiles, which judging by the emotion in this thread, will be scutinised by the public. Has anyone sighted any such standards yet or is this discussion based upon rumour?


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## Anunnaki (Dec 6, 2012)

wokka said:


> Governments tend to be swayed by votes rather than money. Do you think they would favour few hundred petshops over tens of thousands of keepers? If or When reptiles are allowed in petshops it will be because the Government thinks more voters support it than oppose it. I doubt that a few thousand dollars in licence fees will influence the decision either way. I would think that strict standards will be required for petshops to display or sell reptiles, which judging by the emotion in this thread, will be scutinised by the public. Has anyone sighted any such standards yet or is this discussion based upon rumour?



Well when those pet shops start bringing in tens of thousands of keepers in a short amount of time, yes I do think they would favor them. They haven't really done private keepers any favors since I have held my license so why would I think otherwise? And who are these voters you speak of? Is it people on these committees like yourself who never share anything of what goes on with us regular keepers because I sure don't ever remember getting asked my opinion on anything to do with reptile keeping. Or is it parliament members who get the vote? The same ones who vote for major land destruction to anyone who has the $$ to lull them?

I personally feel some people are rubbing their hands together drooling because they have vested interests in the laws passing, such as higher rodent sales and a perfect time to enter the commercial market on a large scale?


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## wokka (Dec 6, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> Well when those pet shops start bringing in tens of thousands of keepers in a short amount of time, yes I do think they would favor them. They haven't really done private keepers any favors since I have held my license so why would I think otherwise? And who are these voters you speak of? Is it people on these committees like yourself who never share anything of what goes on with us regular keepers because I sure don't ever remember getting asked my opinion on anything to do with reptile keeping. Or is it parliament members who get the vote? The same ones who vote for major land destruction to anyone who has the $$ to lull them?
> 
> I personally feel some people are rubbing their hands together drooling because they have vested interests in the laws passing, such as higher rodent sales and a perfect time to enter the commercial market on a large scale?



Petshops will only be able to sell the animals which breeders breed. They cant just pluck them out of the air so there should be no more extra keepers than if animals were sold in McDonalds carparks.

I am not on any committee discussing sale of reptiles in shops- is there one? I am/was on a committee discissing Code of Practice for keeping reptiles but DECCW virtually cut off communications about 2 years ago because the committe didn't agree with their agenda.

Do animals sold in petshops eat more rodents than animals sold direct from breeders? As a major Rodent producer i dont think the method of sale will effect the feed requirements.


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## jacks-pythons (Dec 7, 2012)

Has anyone here bought any herps from shops in other states? if so was there a major difference between them and breeders??? size and temperament??


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## junglepython2 (Dec 7, 2012)

jacks-pythons said:


> Has anyone here bought any herps from shops in other states? if so was there a major difference between them and breeders??? size and temperament??



I did once, petshops often throw in freebies like mites free of charge.


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## Monitors_R_Us (Dec 7, 2012)

I hope in NSW makes a specialist reptile shop such as AmazingAmazon ( Because as for petshop prices go, theirs is very reasonable ) :lol:


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## Rob (Dec 7, 2012)

Monitors_R_Us said:


> I hope in NSW makes a specialist reptile shop such as AmazingAmazon ( Because as for petshop prices go, theirs is very reasonable ) :lol:



There is one specialist shop (that I know of), and another major pet store that is not far off being a specialist reptile outlet.


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## Monitors_R_Us (Dec 7, 2012)

Rob72 said:


> There is one specialist shop (that I know of), and another major pet store that is not far off being a specialist reptile outlet.


What are they called? Don't say ..... because they're are the biggest rip and have the smallest venue haha.


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## Rob (Dec 7, 2012)

Monitors_R_Us said:


> What are they called? Don't say .... because they're are the biggest rip and have the smallest venue haha.



Non-sponsors, so a PM is headed your way.


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## Monitors_R_Us (Dec 7, 2012)

Rob72 said:


> Non-sponsors, so a PM is headed your way.


Ty.


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## Doccee (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm undecided on the matter, it would be good in the aspect of the exposure of snakes to a larger portion of the community therefore raising the awareness that snakes are a beautiful pet and it might help stop people reaching for the shovel when they come across a wild one, that said I have seen more bad pet stores then good and I would worry about the quality of A. The bloodline and B. How they are kept. I personally don't think I would get a snake from a petshop, I wouldn't get a dog, Cat or bird from one either.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 9, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> what i find funny is that you didnt answer my above question , its the one in capital letters , im not surprised really as thats what alot of people do here , they will argue on the points that they want to but when someone poses a question that is hard for them to answer and kinda destroys their argument they just ignore it
> 
> i asked you not to tippy toe around that question and its exactly what you did  typical , and you will probably do it again now , at least thanks to the notification function notifying you of this post i know that you will still see it



I ignored you because I have seen some of your other posts and quite honestly didn't feel my time was well spent replying. Schoolyard reverse psychology doesn't often work on adults so the whole "You didn't answer me because you couldn't" is quite laughable and childish.
Had you posted a relevant question I would have been more than happy to answer it but alas, it was not so I did not.

In future try to put your point across without the unnecessary caps lock and lame attempts at belittling someone, especially when your argument is based of speculation alone.


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## MyMitchie (Dec 9, 2012)

I work at a pet store that sells snakes AND have bought a snake from a pet store. My honest opinion: Pet store snakes are not nearly as good as breeders snakes. I personally took care of the snake I bought at the pet store and I can tell you now we do not get enough time to handle the snakes. Husbandry is fine, we get that correct but to spend some time with the snakes handling them is hard. I am also the only one at the store who can comfortably handle the snakes and as I am only casual I don't get a lot of days in a week to even have a hold. I also own a breeder snake and am utterly impressed at her behaviour when handled.

I would also like to share a sad sad story of one of my snakes siblings that I sold to someone. When someone is interested in purchasing a snake off us I make sure they hold the snake first so they are confident in holding it. Then I make sure they have a suitable click clack set up. This particular person was fine with all of this, described their click clack and said they had had snakes for 30 years and kept telling me they knew a lot more about them than me. They came back a few months later complaining we sold them an evil snake and upon further probing questions he had taken it home and immediately housed it with two 8ft pythons, was under feeding it and told me if we didn't do anything he was going to kill it. I offered to take care of it for a month and he'd see a difference, once again he told me I knew nothing but agreed to it. He never showed.
My point to this story? This whole issue could of happened quite easily to a breeder selling their snake to someone and didn't happen just because we are a pet store.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY.


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## Stevo2 (Dec 9, 2012)

The thing is that nothing is going to change for anyone here on APS - you'll keep trading/buying/selling the way you always have. The shops will merely open up a new market sector, giving rise to the possibility of you being able to offload some of your stock to them rather than direct to other hobbyists. Licensing isn't changing.


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## wokka (Dec 10, 2012)

Stevo2 said:


> The thing is that nothing is going to change for anyone here on APS - you'll keep trading/buying/selling the way you always have. The shops will merely open up a new market sector, giving rise to the possibility of you being able to offload some of your stock to them rather than direct to other hobbyists. Licensing isn't changing.


More to the point it gives buyers an alternative to dealing with private, often secretive seller culture. Not everyone wants to be involved with aps.


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## Morgan_dragon (Dec 11, 2012)

quote deleted

- - - Updated - - -



KaotikJezta said:


> Yes to the first question in a separate room at the other end of the shop. Animals from said breeders are put into the main reptile room but only put up for sale when I am satisfied they are eating well for me. I would send them away and offer them a chance to come back when the animal is ready which is not usually a problem to first time buyers but can lead to losing a sale with others. Many people are happy to layby the animal and complete set-up and it gives them a little time to save up. Just to clarify the set-up thing, I tell all buyers of juvie snakes to house them in a click clack.



So you quarantine baby beardies for 3 months before selling them? I'm sorry but what a load of rubbish, the mark up you would need to make a decent profit on a bub would make it not worth your while....and the tail and toe nips etc experienced from housing that many for that long would have you selling them damaged. Unless your going to tell us you split them over half a dozen tanks? Wow that would be a big quarantine room considering the stock turnover a shop goes through in that period.

Most stores in my experience that supply beardies and reptiles MAY quarantine them in a separate room for a week while they settle them in and make sure they feed before sale....and then move them to yet another enclosure to display and sell them.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> The trouble with these committees is that the only agendas that get pushed are the ones the committee members hold.When representing reptile societies the position of those members should be the ones being forwarded.



That's a very disingenuous view Mark, and not true at all in the case of the advisory group appointed by (then DECCW). Perhaps you are judging others by your own standards, since you hold very strong and probably unbendable views yourself. As a member of the advisory committee for the proposed NSW Reptile Keepers Code of Practice, along with Wokka, John Weigel, Dr Peter Harlow (from Taronga), John Cann, Dr Glenn Shea, Mike Duncan and a number of other very experienced reptile people (12 in all, and all appointed because of their professional experience or as REPRESENTATIVES OF NSW HERPETOLOGICAL SOCIETIES), I can say that NOT ONE of the individuals involved pushed any selfish motive or private agendas. A number of the individuals have very strong academic careers, and although they have collectively a deep interest in herpetology, they demonstrate around 400 years of collective experience. All of us gave up many hours of our time, both in discussion between ourselves, and with DECCW at Hurstville. In my case every meeting involved a 400km each-way trip to Sydney, and therefore involved considerable expense in time and money. And I haven't bred any reptiles for 4 years!

I suspect that they were, as I was, NOMINATED by members of their respective Herp Societies, to represent the interests of their group and NSW keepers in general. This is not the first time you've given these people a backhander, it's a cheap shot for you and it seems like you have a great big chip on your shoulder. I suggest that if you were a member of any Herp Society, you could have just as easily put yourself forward to be included in the group... perhaps you did but you weren't nominated? 

Now, to explain a few facts about the discussions we had:

1. It became obvious from the start that DECCW was intent on mandating enclosure sizes (making them compulsory), and the unanimous view of the Advisory Group was that this was unsatisfactory, for many reasons.
2. We thought we had reached an agreement with DECCW that recommended enclosure sizes would be "guidelines," rather than bureaucratically imposed, enforceable in law standards, but individuals in DII (Dept of Industry and Investment) who have an idealogical investment in this process, insisted that they MUST be mandated. It was becoming more and more evident that this was the outcome the officers in DECCW wanted, regardless of sensible input from our vastly experienced group.
3. We were unable to get any further direct communication with DECCW, other than a meeting with the Dept head and the two DECCW officers, at which we were further stalled with promises of communication which did not eventuate.
4. Our group was even unable to get copies of the final proposed CoP from DECCW for us to examine, and had to resort to FOI to obtain a copy. We also sought information relevant to the CoP from DII, as we were aware that the process was at least being driven equally by that department. DECCW would not release an electronic copy to all members, I guess because they did not want it widely circulated as an easily transmitted PDF.
5. I can show you a long list of emails which were sent to various senior officeholders in DECCW, which either drew more stalling responses, or no response at all.
6. It is very clear that DECCW (now DEH) has done all it can to keep the less palatable aspects of the Code of Practice (and make no mistake, the enclosure size legislation will heavily impact private and commercial keepers, the Reptile Park, Zoos and anyone who keeps reptiles under intense management conditions, regardless of the health and wellbeing of the animals themselves).
7. It is obvious that the Code of Practice was to be slid into law at the same time as regulations proclaiming the sale of reptiles from commercial outlets in NSW, but both groups (ours and that representing commercial outlets) were kept totally separate by DECCW, in fact the existence of this parallel negotiation was never referred to al all. I guess the hope has been that the joy many keepers will experience by freeing up commercial sale legislation would be a sweetener for the sting in the tail of the Code of Practice. Hide the nasty behind a great fanfare of self-congratulatory hoo-haa...

The matter is still ongoing, as the issue of mandating enclosure sizes has not been resolved. The intention was to enact both pieces of legislation at the same time, for the reasons I have noted above, so until matters pertaining to the Code of Practice are sorted (which should be soon), it is unlikely that the commercial matter will be enacted independently.

A large number of people have given up significant amounts of their time in the interests of reptile keepers in NSW to try and resolve issues which should have been dealt with transparently by DECCW from the start - the Department has had the agenda all along, and it is typical of some sourpuss keepers who feel left out of the loop that they take cheap shots at those working on their behalf. It's one of the reasons why it is so difficult to keep everybody "in the loop" - there are so many wreckers within the hobby that anyone who tries to do the right thing will still be pulled down and dismembered by those who feel left out.

You can please some of the people some of the time...

Jamie


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 11, 2012)

Morgan_dragon said:


> quote deleted
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



Our beardies only come from two people that have sold them to us since before I got there. I house them maximum 4 to a tank but usually two. I don't put them out until they are big enough as sometimes some are, IMO, too small to go out even at 6 weeks. This is generally due to the breeder keeping them all together, not us. Our quarantine section is almost as big as the reptile sale section. Feel free to come have a look but I will guarantee we never have more than 4 babies out at a time as I wont risk overcrowding the tank.


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## Morgan_dragon (Dec 11, 2012)

So you don't quarantine everything as stated before, how can you guarantee these bubs don't have salmonella etc? Because they come from a breeder you have purchased off for a few years? Has the breeders collection changed in that time? Have you kept any to make sure they are nice healthy adults? Most beardie bubs look healthy at 4 weeks of age....

You may only hold 4 bubs out on the shop floor but how are the rest of the clutch housed in quarantine? How are you separating all the reptiles from different breeders? There aren't to many breeders around that are set up to supply the complete needs of a store meaning you can have more then one breeders stock in quarantine at a time. Or you just trust that those in quarantine don't cross contaminate each other?

Its only my personal opinion but I find it very hard to believe that you would bother quarantining a whole clutch of children's for 3 months before they go on sale either.....all that stock paid for and just sitting there when the profit is not much better then that of a beardie bub.....

I'm not trying to be awful but you seem to be trying to make yourself out to be some perfect reptile shop guru and in just questioning your practices over the bearded babies that most shops sell it seems your practice is no different to most QLD shops I have dealt with and supplied in the past. 

If you don't want to draw the fire of scrutiny from members perhaps don't make it personally about you and your shop as you have or take the scrutiny to heart as its obvious you did with other members.

There are plenty of pet shops and specialty shops that have got it right or are atleast trying to and plenty of people that both work in shops and own them that have a personal interest in herps. Considering in NSW they were only talking about shops being able to sell a handful of 'basic' reptiles (from this my personal opinion would be things like beardies, spotteds and or childrens a frog and turtle of some description possibly) I think alot of people have gone overboard in their reactions.

Considering how many people there are in NSW breeding and supplying these animals to shops interstate as someone else already mentioned they will basically be cutting out the freight charges...if people from NSW are silly enough to buy a spotted or something from interstate at shop prices and ship it then why not make it commercially available here? 

On a personal note, the two pet shops we supply rodents to are both run by licensed reptile breeders that have the skills and knowledge to do this properly. What's the difference in the shop being licensed to sell and display reptiles or simply having the owner breed anyway? To me? We get to see some pretty reps on display when we drop the rodents off and pick up our weekly cricket supplies etc. and the owners of the store can have their staff trained to help them care for their reptiles....


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 11, 2012)

We are not perfect and I never said otherwise. The babies are housed in a seperate bank out of the shop. The breeders only breed beardies and are not large commercial entities. As stated before, we don't buy beardies under 6 weeks of age and I have seen many of the babies we have sold as adults as most people come back to buy food, lighting etc. I know our quarantine facilities are not ideal but how many quarantine rooms does the average breeder have room for. We also tell people to quarrantine as well so that is double quarrantine if you like No one is perfect, some of us that work in shops were just trying to point out that not all shops don't care about the animals they sell. As far as keeping childrens for 3 months, my boss wont buy childrens so that wont ever happen but we do have some jungles we have had since last season as they were sold with false feeding records and I had to get them all eating. Like I said earlier, the bulk of our profit comes from equipment and fish, the reptiles are a draw card. As for taking it personally, that depends on the mood I am in when I read the post, haha.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 11, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> We are not perfect and I never said otherwise. The babies are housed in a seperate bank out of the shop. The breeders only breed beardies and are not large commercial entities. As stated before, we don't buy beardies under 6 weeks of age and I have seen many of the babies we have sold as adults as most people come back to buy food, lighting etc. I know our quarantine facilities are not ideal but how many quarantine rooms does the average breeder have room for. We also tell people to quarrantine as well so that is double quarrantine if you like No one is perfect, some of us that work in shops were just trying to point out that not all shops don't care about the animals they sell. As far as keeping childrens for 3 months, my boss wont buy childrens so that wont ever happen but we do have some jungles we have had since last season as they were sold with false feeding records and I had to get them all eating. Like I said earlier, the bulk of our profit comes from equipment and fish, the reptiles are a draw card. As for taking it personally, that depends on the mood I am in when I read the post, haha.



I always here these amazing stories of "unfeeding" snakes, 90% of the time it's from the new keepers inexperience rather than the snakes.


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## thomasssss (Dec 11, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> I always here these amazing stories of "unfeeding" snakes, 90% of the time it's from the new keepers inexperience rather than the snakes.


tippy toe on then my friend , tippy toe on


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 11, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> I always here these amazing stories of "unfeeding" snakes, 90% of the time it's from the new keepers inexperience rather than the snakes.


Ok, whatever you want to think.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 11, 2012)

Breach of rule one and two.


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## thomasssss (Dec 11, 2012)

.


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## The_Geeza (Dec 11, 2012)

2 threrads in 2 days.....Keeping out of this 1 ......Mods will be on the prowl enforcing there new born Power.......Guys just make up the mods got enough on there plate than to read all this tittle tattle...Buck up or im sure u lot will be sent to the Naughty boy corner 2..........











..................................................










.....................................................................................................


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 12, 2012)

Quite a bit off-track too on a "reptiles in NSW shops" thread...

Jamie


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## Justdragons (Dec 12, 2012)

Quite right Jamie, lets try keep things on topic guys. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cid_python (Dec 12, 2012)

Has it been decided yet?


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## jacks-pythons (Dec 12, 2012)

no it hasnt been decided yet. besides the cabinet making the dission, i will know before most as i have a connection on the inside lol. (say it as an italian mafia guy hahahaha). i will post it when i know as i see the guy most days of the week. should be interesting. i doubt it will go through tho as it has been as discussion for years but never had any progress.


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## -Peter (Dec 12, 2012)

jacks-pythons said:


> no it hasnt been decided yet. besides the cabinet making the dission, i will know before most as i have a connection on the inside lol. (say it as an italian mafia guy hahahaha). i will post it when i know as i see the guy most days of the week. should be interesting. i doubt it will go through tho as it has been as discussion for years but never had any progress.



Its been going to happen for years. I remember reading a draft about 12 years ago and responding on behalf of SMWS. Its never been canned, as you say, just never progressed. It will eventually happen... oneday


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## JasonL (Dec 12, 2012)

yeah, and 12 years ago it was "about to happen" too lol


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## dragonlover1 (Dec 12, 2012)

if the boofocrats have their way it will NEVER happen


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## dadaman (Jan 2, 2013)

Has it happened yet?


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## saintanger (Jan 2, 2013)

i noticed my locale petshop has started stocking large melamine reptile enclosures. so it might be going ahead. will have to wait and see,


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## reptilezac (Jan 2, 2013)

anyone now if nsw is selling them yet ? or if its going ahead


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## Danieljohn96 (Jan 2, 2013)

So has it happened yet?


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## Venomous_RBB (Jan 2, 2013)

I noticed a few changes to the pet shops around ehre too, they are getting more herp stuff in, this is interesting/exciting and highly nerve racking/worrying. I just hope they do a good job policing the regulations for herps.


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## jacks-pythons (Jan 24, 2013)

No it hasnt happened yet but i was asked today if i was willing to go on tv to talk about the positives and negatives of the event of this happening. i think there should be a husbandry and handling course for new reptile owners if this is the case. not sure if ill do it or not as there are alot of opinions out there and i dont want to be branded for saying something some wont agree with.


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## FAY (Jan 25, 2013)

Husbandry and handling courses for the staff in the pet shops more like it.


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## jacks-pythons (Jan 25, 2013)

well as far as i know its already going to be a requirement that people working in the pet shops who will be given licenses will need to have done it and have an extensive knowledge on animals for sale

- - - Updated - - -

well as far as i know its already going to be a requirement that people working in the pet shops who will be given licenses will need to have done it and have an extensive knowledge on animals for sale


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## hilly (Jan 25, 2013)

jacks-pythons, 
Can I ask in what capacity were you asked to give an interview regarding sales of reptiles in pet shops?

Thanks.


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## Cypher69 (Jan 25, 2013)

Well I spoke to the owner of my local pet shop. She not only owns the business but is a part time qualified vet...so I do have a lot of respect for her ethics & the high conditions she maintains her animals.

Anyway I asked about the recent gossip of reptiles in NSW pet shops & she just rolled her eyes & said, "Is that rumour going around again?"


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## RSPcrazy (Jan 25, 2013)

I spoke with "kellyville pets" the other week and asked if it had been approved yet? 
I was told it got close, but it was rejected and it would be another 6 months or so before they might consider it again.


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## Cypher69 (Jan 25, 2013)

So the big legal question is, Why is NSW being restricted in selling reptiles?
If Qld, Canberra & Melbourne can, why is legislation holding NSW back?


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## geckodan (Jan 25, 2013)

Cypher69 said:


> So the big legal question is, Why is NSW being restricted in selling reptiles?
> If Qld, Canberra & Melbourne can, why is legislation holding NSW back?



For the same reason QLD can't keep mammals or the vast majority of softbills - they restrict them because they can. To change the legislation is an admittance that the prior legislation is flawed.


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## Cypher69 (Jan 25, 2013)

geckodan said:


> they restrict them because they can. To change the legislation is an admittance that the prior legislation is flawed.



Seriously there must be a more viable reason than that?
Admittance & changing a flaw would only lead a profit...it's a win-win situation for both NSW herps & the govt.


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## IceWhiteFreak (Jan 25, 2013)

I remember when kellyville pets had this little python package I think it was like 10 years ago. you got a little bug catcher type tub, a children's python, a book and a little heat matt all for the low price of $600, the snake was sold off site of course. I wonder if they'll bring back this offer if pet shops were allowed to sell reptiles, we can only hope....


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## Cypher69 (Jan 25, 2013)

IceWhiteFreak said:


> I remember when kellyville pets had this little python package I think it was like 10 years ago. you got a little bug catcher type tub, a children's python, a book and a little heat matt all for the low price of $600, the snake was sold off site of course. I wonder if they'll bring back this offer if pet shops were allowed to sell reptiles, we can only hope....




If memory serves me, it was actually the owner of K/Pets who bred the children's python so it was like a dodgey "under the counter deal". I think he also got caught & fined for breeding/selling chipmunks & hopping mice.


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## IceWhiteFreak (Jan 25, 2013)

I'm not surprised. unfortunatly this whole hobby over the years has proved to be one of the most dodgy hobbies iv ever come in across. to keep that passion alive and your mind on how good the animals are you just need to just get your herps at a good price from good people and get the hell out and keep your head down. When I was moving alot of animals maybe 3-5 years ago I would be offered drugs in exchange for animals I'm not talking about abit green either.... Iv got offered exotics, stolen laptops and phones with people's faces still on the wallpaper with the phone having to "be unlocked" even tho we made an agreement to meet up and sell the snake for a price, very awquard. Ridiculas offers at the time of which resulted in me just walking away....Some of the people you come across when you start moving alot of animals you see the veration in idiots. Maybe its the hobby maybe it's Sydney area maybe it's both but iv sold all my animals and plan too only keep a few and not breed because of the fact that people made me that sick I didn't want to keep herps anymore.....I'm slowly enjoying keeping again which I'm not going to let fools ruin....I pretty much don't tell anyone I keep snakes anymore because I'm sick of people showing me photos of corn snakes and boas draped around fools wereing dry fits and tns.....plenty offers from pet shop employees and owners for exotics aswell. Well I guise they do have bills to pay (who doesn't)


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## borntobnude (Jan 25, 2013)

With governments who dont know how many "puppy farms "are out there producing x number of mongrels on a daily basis , how do they think they can control the breeding and sales of reptiles ? .
i have bought some finches over the past few years that looked good in the shop and dropped dead within a week -- go back to the shop / breeder and they make all the excuses and its all my fault but none of my existing birds have died !! .I have no one to complain to as most are cash tranactions ,as with the reptiles 
All of these cash transactions atract the government as there is lost revenue amongst other things, so they want a piece but how to collect seems to be the issue . JMHO 8)


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## ShaneBlack (Jan 25, 2013)

IceWhiteFreak said:


> I'm not surprised. unfortunatly this whole hobby over the years has proved to be one of the most dodgy hobbies iv ever come in across. Maybe its the hobby maybe it's Sydney area maybe it's both



I hear this all the time....problem is its not just the reptile hobby. Its just human beings in general. Doesnt matter where you are or what hobby your involved in, the fact is a majority percentage of humans are grubs. Best to find a few mates you can trust and stick to yourselves. Dont tell anyone your business, mind your own business and let the trash do what they do.


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## Dutchy88 (Jan 25, 2013)

Worst idea ever granted it will expose the hobby more but with that comes more irresponsible keepers( not pointing fingers but we all know there out there) it also proposes the same problem we have with reataly available pets and that people but them for kids to keep them happy and before long you end up with homeless and abused cats and dogs this is not what might happen to reptiles in will 100% happen forgetting the fact that dogs and cats are easy we are going to have a lot of dead reptiles.


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## IceWhiteFreak (Jan 25, 2013)

ShaneBlack said:


> I hear this all the time....problem is its not just the reptile hobby. Its just human beings in general. Doesnt matter where you are or what hobby your involved in, the fact is a majority percentage of humans are grubs. Best to find a few mates you can trust and stick to yourselves. Dont tell anyone your business, mind your own business and let the trash do what they do.



I disagree, iv been involved in Japanese car enthuseists, bodybuilding, fish hobby, bird hobby and many more and most arnt that bad. But the reptile hobby has, overall, imo the most tossers.....I'm going to stop there I don't want to go too underground around the honest people at surface of this forum, aslong as you don't go sniffing around the wrong places you won't find these dangerous people and you won't even know they exist, which most people would be better off....peace out


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## ShaneBlack (Jan 25, 2013)

I used to keep and breed a large collection of parrots and lorikeets and I found the bird hobby to be worse than than reptiles. Sure most of them dont look as dodgy as your average reptile keeper and tend to be better educated, but you cant judge a book by its cover. Theft was rife in the bird hobby...way more than in the retile hobby. Most of the big players regularly dobbed each other in or stole from one another because of jealousy and greed. I know the same thing happens with reptiles but not to the same degree. Although its getting worse for sure.

The fish industry is better for sure but theres not quite the money that birds and reptiles generate. I dont want to sound too negative, but your right, there is a lot of imbeciles out there. All I'm saying is that their everywhere.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 25, 2013)

ShaneBlack said:


> Best to find a few mates you can trust and stick to yourselves.



Just noticed you only have one friend on here.I got none :cry:


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## IceWhiteFreak (Jan 25, 2013)

That's exactly right theft is huge in the bird hobby but they just don't use the persons details on people like they do in the reptile hobby, iv got mates that have been black mailed and all sorts of scary stuff you don't get with the bird hobby, people's lives been changed with them having to walk there top end pythons out the front of their house pretty much just giveing them away for the sake of there family safety. Calling the police in some situations won't do jack if you don't have the right connections. Thankfully iv never handed my address out or freighted so Iv only experienced idiots when trying to sell animals....but yes keep your address secret, make good mates and buy from reliable people then you've got nothing to worry about....you could always consider the loan shark and night club owning scene if your board Shane...


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## -Peter (Jan 26, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Just noticed you only have one friend on here.I got none :cry:



There you go, I hope that makes you feel a bit better.


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## FAY (Jan 26, 2013)

Being a 'grub' humanbeing does not restrict itself to the reptile hobby, I can assure you.


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## IceWhiteFreak (Jan 26, 2013)

No one said it was, Fay......


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## Amazing Amazon (Jan 28, 2013)

Word gets around pretty quick in the reptile industry and I am sure it would be the same in NSW as in Victoria. The shops with good stock and advice will continue to grow and the crap ones will slowly get pushed out. Plenty of places have tried selling reptiles in Vic because they think that's where the $$$ are, but soon find out there is a bit more to it than putting in a Bearded Dragon and a couple of Pythons. More have scaled down or shut down their reptiles in Vic, and although there would probably be a free for all at first, I think it would sort it self out after a year or so with the better ones the only ones surviving.


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## jacks-pythons (Mar 22, 2013)

It's offical. Pet shops have been given the go ahead in the sale of reptiles. More news to come with species, codes of practice and other important information. It's a step forward for the hobby and love of reptiles. Just hope people don't get it for the sake of it being "cool" to own a snake etc.


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## adfel (Mar 22, 2013)

Check this link. Theres a picture of a fax that was received by a PIAA member to say effective immediately (from when fax was sent) reptiles can be sold in pet shops. 
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/reptile-news-5375/nsw-shops-gets-go-ahead-202331/#post2334443


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