# Crocodiles More Bird Than Reptile...



## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

Is what I recently heard being told on a children's tv show.

In fact, it was presented as such: 
"Did you know that crocodiles are more closely related to birds than reptiles?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 18, 2011)

I think reptiles are closely related to birds.


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## reptilesrkool (Apr 18, 2011)

yeah it`s true i think it cause they both have a 4 chamberd heart but don`t quote me on that


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## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

Dinosaurs were closely related to birds.
But crocs actually are a reptile... You can't get more closely related than that, right?
I can understand if they said that they are more related to birds than other species of reptiles, but they didn't.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 18, 2011)

What actually denotes a reptile is pretty hard to explain, check out the last few Scales and Tails there is some good info on it about "what is a reptile"


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## guzzo (Apr 18, 2011)

Yes! they are closely related to the crocatoo!!!


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2011)

There was a funny XKCD comic I saw kinda referring to this topic. I didn't really get it until I just (as in this morning) read the chapter in The Greatest Show on Earth where Dawkins explains that many biologists are uncomfortable with reptiles being in a class on their own that they should actually be an order of the class Aves (birds). Since crocs are considered "living fossils" (ie they haven't evolved as much as other species), their closest ancestors would actually be the common ancestors that reptiles share with birds...if you get what I mean


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## lace90 (Apr 18, 2011)

Birds and crocodiles both share a more recent common ancestor than do other reptiles and crocodiles, so crocs are more closely related to birds. I think people get confused because they think dinosaurs are reptiles, but they are distinct from each other - birds are also reptilian in many ways as they evolved from dinosaurs before mammals etc (who diverged from birds), and still share a lot of (mostly) internal characteristics that link them to this. Other reptiles are a more recent occurence in the phylogeny. There have been some nice fossils found in qld and nsw that link dinosaurs and birds; some of the people I work with do studies on this and it is quite interesting.


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## guzzo (Apr 18, 2011)

well the babies sort of make a bird like chirp!!!


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2011)

lace90 said:


> There have been some nice fossils found in qld and nsw that link dinosaurs and birds; some of the people I work with do studies on this and it is quite interesting.


 _Archaeopteryx, _although not found in Aus, is arguably the best example. However some say it is a poor example because it means stooping down to the level of people to talk about "missing links"


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## lace90 (Apr 18, 2011)

Haha, I agree - everything is a 'missing link' - as unless you have a fossil from every generation from the beginning of life to now, how do we know for sure that the sequence we are predicting is correct? We can only say that these morphological characters link neatly, and molecular dating and sequencing can give it a little more support - but we can just give our best estimates and hypotheses. But I suppose that is science, right?


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2011)

Haha and also if we had an unending list of these "missing links" from every generation it would be impossible to classify anything as any particular species because it would not be possible to identify when a particular class, genus, species ends and another starts

PS Sorry for stealing the thread a little there Chantelle. I hope between us, Lace and I kinda answered what you were talking about...


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## lace90 (Apr 18, 2011)

We could take the molecular mutations to account for differences in spp. (though this would be a LOT more ambiguous than genus) and again it would just be an estimate of how many mutations is needed down the generations (ei. from F3 - F10) and whether the accumulation of these mutations caused enough differences to be an individual species. Aaaah I can't even imagine how much work that would take - not to mention the difficulty in extracting any sort of viable genetic information from a fossil millions of years old!!

So I think that any one who dosen't take what has been found so far and give it the benefit of the doubt should remember that they prob don't have anything any more viable than this evidence to contribute lol.


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## Darlyn (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm pretty sure one theory is that way way back crocs were
probably bipedal but I think we're pretty lucky they don't fly.


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## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

saximus said:


> Haha and also if we had an unending list of these "missing links" from every generation it would be impossible to classify anything as any particular species because it would not be possible to identify when a particular class, genus, species ends and another starts
> 
> PS Sorry for stealing the thread a little there Chantelle. I hope between us, Lace and I kinda answered what you were talking about...


Haha, no worries. 

I understand what you're both saying. I know that birds and reptiles are more closely related then some might think, but when it comes down to it what would you tell a kid what a croc is? A bird or a reptile? This kids show just put it too bluntly for my liking.


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2011)

Haha well technically it is true. So maybe the confusing nature of such a statement would cause the children to question their parents and encourage the parents to pick up a biology book and do some research


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## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

saximus said:


> Haha well technically it is true. So maybe the confusing nature of such a statement would cause the children to question their parents and encourage the parents to pick up a biology book and do some research


 One can only hope. Haha.
I'm just not a fan of being too blunt with children without a valid explanation... It always ends up with confused children, etc.
I have many younger siblings so I have experienced this first hand. Haha.


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## lace90 (Apr 18, 2011)

Interesting that a kids show taught that kind of information...I think it is good to teach kids facts rather than to simplify it too much that they grow up thinking the wrong thing, though I agree that some information must be confusing. So from the kids you experienced this with, did they end up learning anything at all or just stayed confused?


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## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

lace90 said:


> Interesting that a kids show taught that kind of information...I think it is good to teach kids facts rather than to simplify it too much that they grow up thinking the wrong thing, though I agree that some information must be confusing. So from the kids you experienced this with, did they end up learning anything at all or just stayed confused?


 Well it would be good if they taught facts. This was just a statement without any back up information.
Like I've said earlier (though my sentence structure looks a bit off when I said it), I would have preferred it even if it simply just said that they were more closely related to birds than they are to other reptiles, but crocs are still typically classified as a reptile, although that is a very complex and completely different reptile. I reckon that they should just get their own family to fix all this confusion. Haha. Birtiles sounds good to me.


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## Australis (Apr 18, 2011)

This thread would make Kirk cry.
He wants his crocoduck..


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2011)

LOL! Aus when Darlyn mentioned the bipedal crocs I was totally gonna post a pic of that. Good old crocoduck. I bet there wouldn't be so many hunters down by the local pond if they existed


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## fugawi (Apr 18, 2011)

Here is a very simplified explanation. Fishes came out of the sea leading to primitive amphibians but the amphibians had to stay close to the water for body hydration and to lay eggs in the water. This led to a new animal that grew a protective skin to hold water and the ability to lay a hard shelled egg that could be laid on land for protection from predators and to create an enclosed watery environment for the foetus to grow. These were the first Dinos. From here they split into two groups, lizard hipped and bird hipped dinos. The bird hipped ones led to the TRex etc. One offshoot led to the Archaeopteryx then modern birds. The lizard hipped side had an offshoot that led to Crocodilians. The main similarities are a 4 chambered heart and a hard shelled egg. Are crocs birds....No. Do they have a common ancester....yes. Unless your kids are in their mid teens, I wouldn't go into it any further than this.

And remember this is a VERY VERY simplified explanation.


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## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Here is a very simplified explanation. Fishes came out of the sea leading to primitive amphibians but the amphibians had to stay close to the water for body hydration and to lay eggs in the water. This led to a new animal that grew a protective skin to hold water and the ability to lay a hard shelled egg that could be laid on land for protection from predators and to create an enclosed watery environment for the foetus to grow. These were the first Dinos. From here they split into two groups, lizard hipped and bird hipped dinos. The bird hipped ones led to the TRex etc. One offshoot led to the Archaeopteryx then modern birds. The lizard hipped side had an offshoot that led to Crocodilians. The main similarities are a 4 chambered heart and a hard shelled egg. Are crocs birds....No. Do they have a common ancester....yes. Unless your kids are in their mid teens, I wouldn't go into it any further than this.
> 
> And remember this is a VERY VERY simplified explanation.


 I don't have any kids, and don't plan to have any for a longgg time (if at all) but I would love for kids shows to give this sort of info out rather than just a blunt statement or even worse, incorrect facts.

Haha, love the crocoduck. I don't think I'd be having a picnic by that pond in a hurry.


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2011)

Luckily for you Chantelle, unless you believe in ridiculous non-science you are safe from crocoducks. Also from fronkeys...


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## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

saximus said:


> Luckily for you Chantelle, unless you believe in ridiculous non-science you are safe from crocoducks. Also from fronkeys...


Hahaha. Oh my... A fronkey would be pretty terrifying!


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## fugawi (Apr 18, 2011)

Where did I go wrong Chantelle?


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## Serpentess (Apr 18, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Where did I go wrong Chantelle?


I never thought you were wrong. 
I said I would love for kids shows to give the sort of information you gave instead of just blunt statements.


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## Matt-to-the-K (Apr 18, 2011)

Wow that's crazy. 
Would of definatley thought they were reps. I love hearing facts lie this. What's the name of that show?


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## Serpentess (Apr 19, 2011)

Matt-to-the-K said:


> Wow that's crazy.
> Would of definatley thought they were reps. I love hearing facts lie this. What's the name of that show?


 They are still considered to be reptiles, but they are more closely related to birds than they are to other reptiles.
Sorry, not sure on the name of the show as I didn't see the beginning.


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## NickM (Apr 19, 2011)

Technically birds ARE reptiles. Birds may be a divergent branch of the reptiles but they considered to be "archosaurian reptiles" The only other surviving archosaurs are the crocodilia. The fact that birds are endothermic and all other living reptiles are ectothermic really does not mean much.

Nick


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## waruikazi (Apr 19, 2011)

NickM said:


> Technically birds ARE reptiles. Birds may be a divergent branch of the reptiles but they considered to be "archosaurian reptiles" The only other surviving archosaurs are the crocodilia. The fact that birds are endothermic and all other living reptiles are ectothermic really does not mean much.
> 
> Nick


 
Giant leatherback turtles are endotherms too.

How's that book going Nick?


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## fugawi (Apr 19, 2011)

Sorry Chantelle...read it wrong....Tried to make it for a 10yo, simple quick, add TRex into it and kept it under the 2 min attention span.


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## Snakewise84 (Apr 19, 2011)

well there was a reptile with feathers and could glide back then so its more like birds came from reptiles


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## NickM (Apr 19, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> How's that book going Nick?



I never heard that about the leatherbacks, interesting. So endothermy evolved multiple times in reptiles and mammals independently.

The book is going well, Its almost ready for editing etc.

Nick


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