# Morphs



## OuZo (May 31, 2005)

I was just havin a look at this site http://www.moreliagranites.com/nuyten_reptiles/index.htm and if you click on the "Morphs" link on the left it takes you to a page with some Irian Jaya granite morphs. Reading the bit up the top they basically say they bred 2 wild caught snakes and out of 11, 4 popped out granites. like POOF all of a sudden you have a new colour morph. Is it really that random? Like I have never thought intensely about it but I kinda figured that maybe diff colour or pattern traits were developed from selective breeding...like selecting babies that show more of the trait you're after and sorta interbreed to define those characteristics (please excuse me if that makes no sense at all lol). But anyway, if it really is that random then any one of us (hopefully me :lol could one day breed 2 normal snakes together and pop out somethig fantasmical! Should I start praying? :lol:


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## craig.a.c (May 31, 2005)

I have no idea how it works. Wouldn't it be similar to getting the odd albino? 

I don't think they look that great to tell you the truth.


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## NCHERPS (May 31, 2005)

Zoe,

You pretty much have the idea.

This is how I reckon the albino BHP's shown recently probably came about, two normal looking snakes that were bred together, that turned out to be Hets for albino trait.

Of course, people do also line breed for certain characteristic's also.

That's what makes me so excited about the albino Bhp's recently, and the new albino GTP in the states, you never know just what you might get by breeding two unrelated animals together, or related in some instances.

Of course the statistical chance of getting an albino by breeding unknown to unknown are very slim, where as line breeding animals is something you have more control of, and is also exciting to see what can be achieved.

Neil


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## The Rock (May 31, 2005)

Ive a friend in sweeden that breeds granites, he swears they are from australian blood,(mcdowelli). Ill try to down size a pic for ya all.he also breeds the origanal jaguar morp, as i belive there are two or three other strains floating around. He has been breeding these for a few years.
Rob


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## Magpie (Jun 1, 2005)

There's two diferent ways of developing genetic "morphs" (3 if you count wild collecting).
The main way is for them to "just appear" in a clutch.
The second way is to breed two genetic morphs together. This is how "Snows" are made, breeding two diferent types of albinos together.


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## OuZo (Jun 1, 2005)

> Of course the statistical chance of getting an albino by breeding unknown to unknown are very slim



That's what I mean! The chances would be so small and the chap with the albino bhp's also had the same luck with the granite IJ's!!!

"Snows" are pure white Mags?


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2005)

Yeah snows are pure white. They're produced from an albino and axanthic crossing. 
Axanthics lack yellow/red pigments :wink:


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2005)

Ok, well you don't get snows directly from crossing an albino with an axanthic. You need 2 snakes that are double hets for the traits, which are produced from the initial albino/axanthic crossing. Then when they breed you get snows :lol:


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## beknluke (Jun 1, 2005)

My head hurts!! :lol:


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## NCHERPS (Jun 1, 2005)

Gabe said:


> Ok, well you don't get snows directly from crossing an albino with an axanthic. You need 2 snakes that are double hets for the traits, which are produced from the initial albino/axanthic crossing. Then when they breed you get snows :lol:



Very well put Gabe!
It's when things start getting real interesting, and your projects become a reality over many years of hard work.

Neil


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## Skorpious (Jun 1, 2005)

so when you have the snows then by breeding two of them what percentage are born snows?


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2005)

Breeding 2 snows together will result in all snows


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## NCHERPS (Jun 1, 2005)

Skorp,

Breeding a Double Het to a Double Het will give you a one in sixteen chance of producing a snow.

Neil


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## Hickson (Jun 1, 2005)

NCHERPS said:


> Skorp,
> 
> Breeding a Double Het to a Double Het will give you a one in sixteen chance of producing a snow.
> 
> Neil



And of the remaining 15:

One will be completely normal.
A further 8 will look normal, but will be single or double het.
There will be one albino.
There will be one xanthic (sometimes called anerythristic).
There will be two albinos, het for xanthic.
And there will be two xanthics het for albino.



Hix

Disclaimer: I disagree with the use of the term 'albino' in this context, and only use it here for the sake of simplicity.


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## Skorpious (Jun 2, 2005)

So how do you tell apart the double hets hehe
well i have gained a bit more respect in starting morphs and the amount of time it takes.


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## OuZo (Jun 2, 2005)

:shock: 

Confusion sets in :lol:


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## herptrader (Jun 2, 2005)

Basically you have to breed them together and if some of the offspring show the trait then you bred two hets.



Skorpious said:


> So how do you tell apart the double hets hehe
> well i have gained a bit more respect in starting morphs and the amount of time it takes.


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2005)

My next project is going to be a 2 headed granite albino, I have everything except an albino with 2 heads and of course the granite but you have to start somewhere.


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## Magpie (Jun 2, 2005)

I'm gonna breed one of them double blind het albinos.


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## beknluke (Jun 2, 2005)

I told you my head hurt!!
It is so amazingly involved!! But the rewards are so great that it makes you want to start buying up big and playing around. It's just all of the genetics that start getting confusing with the whole 'double het crossed with a {blah}' lol!! but INCREDIBLE!


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## Menagerie (Jun 2, 2005)

this is a quote from someone who wrote it so small that I had to copy and enlarge it to read it......

Disclaimer: I disagree with the use of the term 'albino' in this context, and only use it here for the sake of simplicity.



I don't understand what you mean by that, what context do you agree with the use of the term albino in??


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## BROWNS (Jun 2, 2005)

Amelanistic then...


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## Hickson (Jun 3, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> Amelanistic then...



Correct, but as I said, I used 'albino' for the sake of simplicity. Everyone else had been using the term in this thread up to that point. Didn't want to confuse the newbies or start another major debate about correct terminology.



Skorpius said:


> So how do you tell apart the double hets hehe
> well i have gained a bit more respect in starting morphs and the amount of time it takes.



That's when the fun begins. You need to breed them with a homozygous mutation (one showing the trait).

For example: If you want to know if that normal looking hatchling was het for 'albino', you would need to grow it up to breeding age and pair it with an 'albino'. If it is a het, half the offspring will be 'albino' and the other half will be normal-looking, but hets.

This works for all autosomally recessive mutations. I haven't heard of any sex-linked mutations in snakes - does anyone know if there are any?



Hix


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## dee4 (Jun 3, 2005)

[boa wrote]
with 2 heads and of course the granite but you have to start somewhere.
[/quote]
We have a Granite mine near our place, if you like I can go get you some and send it to you Boa. :roll: :wink:


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## BROWNS (Jun 3, 2005)

Albinisim or Amelanistic is straight forward mendelian genetics and very predictable.What interests me is say crossing albinos which is a recessive trait with a co dominant or double dominant striped trait or gene...

I'm sure i have had a post i wrote removed from this thread.Anyway i still reckon that with the limited gene pool of bhp's overseas as well as their high price"twice the price of womas" that a wild caught albino was involved and that someone didn't just happen to have 2 unknown or unrelated hets that produced the albino bhp's.All albinos originate from the wild and there had to be a founder albino bhp somewhere along the line.Who would say that the albino bhp's came from a known albino bhp anyway.Also we have been breeding bhp's in big numbers here and this is Oz where the gene had to originate from yet nobody to date has produced an albino anything that i know of from a serendipitous breeding and all came from wild caught specimens originally,please correct me if i'm wrong.

Not reptile related but extremely interesting and bizzare is i watched a doco where a half albino half normal"perfect halves" as well as male and female"hermophradite" lobster was dragged from the ocean in a net,now the genetics of something like that with reptiles would be truly amazing and i'd actually hate to see it happen but preety interesting nonetheless


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## Hickson (Jun 3, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> Not reptile related but extremely interesting and bizzare is i watched a doco where a half albino half normal"perfect halves" as well as male and female"hermophradite" lobster was dragged from the ocean in a net,now the genetics of something like that with reptiles would be truly amazing and i'd actually hate to see it happen but preety interesting nonetheless



I've been told that there's a breeder in Sydney who has Fischer's Lovebirds that are half 'n' half, and I've seen an hermaphroditic Swamp Wallaby at Macquarie University.



Hix


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## Skorpious (Jun 3, 2005)

Albinos have to start somewhere tho Browns, although i think its a slim chance, it is always a possibility that those two were just a freak of nature.


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## BROWNS (Jun 3, 2005)

> Albinos have to start somewhere tho Browns


Correct,exactly what i'm saying and of all the known albinos originate from wild caught specimens.Does anyone else have any info that shows otherwise that albino pythons for example have come from a completely unknown pair of animals carrying the gene?I know this happens with rodents for example quite often but they aren't reptiles and a similar story would apply to them to if you could actually trace the bloodlines?


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## herptrader (Jun 3, 2005)

A limited gene pool is a fertile situation for the recessive genes to express themselves.

It is not like you can pick up a normal looking animal from the wild or anywhere and easily tell if it is carrying any given recessive trait!

If there were albino black heades in Australia and one suddenly showed up overseas then then I think your argument would have some weight but as it stands, IMHO, it is just another conspiracy theory.


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## BROWNS (Jun 3, 2005)

> A limited gene pool is a fertile situation for the recessive genes to express themselves.



True, inbreeding can lead to mutations although i've never heard of inbreeding resulting in albinism.That's not to say it hasn't happened but i've not heard of it in reptiles.





> If there were albino black heades in Australia and one suddenly showed up overseas then then I think your argument would have some weight but as it stands, IMHO, it is just another conspiracy theory.



Again that's exactly what i'm saying.There has already been albino bhp's in Australia,i have proof more solid than most on this i believe, and the snow or all white phase of albinism can produce the white and yellow type or tyrosinaise negative which can also express reds and pinks etc in all different shades.

I sat next to this animal at school for 2 years nearly every day as well as fed it and i have been in touch with the school i went to regarding the albino bhp which they knew nothing about.At the time i loved reptiles but never realised the significance of this animal till many many years later.I have told a few people here and there the same story and i'm sure most didn't believe me but here it is,pics or it didn't happen!!!












No conspiracy theory,i'm just finding it extremely difficult to believe otherwise and so far the my arguement has more weight than any other.


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## herptrader (Jun 3, 2005)

Your pictures do add a lot of weight to your argment.

It would be really interesting to find out what happened to that animal. Somebody must know.


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## BROWNS (Jun 3, 2005)

I actually do know who would know exactly what happened to the animal but i can't find him anywhere.I'm hypothetically saying that someone most likely did realise the significance of the animal at that time and it did mysteriously dissapear.

If someone knew the importance of the albino they would definitely have at least tried to breed from it and when i saw it and fed it etc it was a full grown adult in with a regular bhp most likely than not the one in the same photos.The gene is out there and there has also been a second albino maccy found in the similar area as the first that was found and handed in to NPWS.These apparently have blue eyes but sorry just going on info from a good source and have no pics nor seen either of these.

I posted a pic a while back of an albino brown tree snake a friend of mine caught while still alive after it had just been hit by the car in front of him and it's now preserved in a jar but i don't have the pics on the pc i'm using.This animal was so white it was see through and i've seen pics of it while still alive at the vets.


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## Ricko (Jun 3, 2005)

got any pics of the albino maccy's? and im with you on the theory you have browns.


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## BROWNS (Jun 3, 2005)

Nh mate no pics..
Also if albinism was more likely to occur from inbreeding you would think that with the amount of inbreeding and crossing of all morelia in the US yet they have never hatched out an albino carpet to date.They have jags and granite and all the rest but still no albinos.I'm sticking with what i think unless someone can prove otherwise.


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## Gabe (Jun 3, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> These apparently have blue eyes but sorry just going on info from a good source and have no pics nor seen either of these.


Blue eyed albinos? Sounds like leucistics.


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## NCHERPS (Jun 3, 2005)

Gabe said:


> BROWNS said:
> 
> 
> > These apparently have blue eyes but sorry just going on info from a good source and have no pics nor seen either of these.
> ...



I agree, they do sound like Leucistic's, and they are far rarer than Albino's to.

Obviously, all snakes originate from the wild, so there genes(Albino's or otherwise) would also be carried down through our captive generations, the issue at point is , ' How many generations captive bred are the parents, grandparents etc?'
Hopefully, we will gain more info in regards the bhp's recently bred, but as I have already mentioned in an earlier thread, it is possible and in my opinion, more likely that there is no secret albino wc fonder animal being held in captivity, just a guy that got lucky by pairing up two multi-generational hets, just as did the breeders of the albino GTP's in the US.

Of course how the US and Europe as a whole originally acquired the Aussie snakes many years ago, isn't a mystery, the majority of founder animals were wc illegally exported/smuggled, with a minority maybe being obtained legally from animals acquired from legally held stock in US zoo's.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I like the idea that anyone at anytime could just produce something highly unusual in captive collections  .


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## hugsta (Jun 3, 2005)

I agree with Neil, I believe they were bred from two normal looking BHPs that had unknown genes. After all albinos have to originate from normals somehow, or else albinos would be common.


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