# Kimberley Rock Monitors



## Stompsy (Jul 18, 2016)

Hi Guys,

So, I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the politics of having certain species added to keepers lists, however I have fallen head over heals with Kimberley Rock Monitors but alas, they are not available to keep in Victoria.

So, my question is.... what is the process to have any given species added. I'm assuming it is highly difficult, near on impossible to do... but if anyone has any information they can provide, I'd be eternally grateful.

TIA


----------



## phatty (Jul 19, 2016)

you would need to wait for the authority to add them. dont know if there is anything you can do but wait or move also kimbos are not easy to find.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 19, 2016)

So there's absolutely no process to lobby for them to be added to the keepers list in Victoria? 

Also, I moved here from Queensland 2 and a half years ago, not planning a move again anytime soon!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 19, 2016)

That's a bit of a shame, they seem like awesome monitors. Can you keep things like Kingorum or other rock monitors in Vic, because maybe they could be your closest bet.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 19, 2016)

I've been researching ALL THE MONITORS and they are what I want. 

Seems as though that won't be happening though. [emoji20]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 19, 2016)

If it's your first monitor, you're better off starting with a Gillens or Accies, even tristis imo. All these are pretty hardy captives and available to keep in Vic. Some tristis look better than kimbo's anyway. I think they're over rated, jmo.


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 19, 2016)

Yeah I think I prefer glebopalma but I'll have to wait a bit longer :|


----------



## phatty (Jul 19, 2016)

BredliFreak said:


> Yeah I think I prefer glebopalma but I'll have to wait a bit longer :|


you have to wait for them to be released any way. Not many around imo


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 19, 2016)

Yeah, I know they're at crocosaurus cove and I think a couple of people have them apart from that, otherwise I guess the only others are in illegal hands. They have quite a range apparently but the only times I have heard of reports of them are in the Kimberley. Are there many records from the NT and Mt Isa?


----------



## phatty (Jul 19, 2016)

you must know the right people if you know that much haha. They are up here in the right area although I won't say where on a public forum.


----------



## Nero Egernia (Jul 19, 2016)

I always wondered how reptiles such as Kimberly Rock Monitors, Pilbara Rock Monitors, and other species that are endemic to Western Australia end up in other states when we ourselves cannot collect or keep them. Is it possible for outside states to get permits to collect in WA?


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 19, 2016)

If you ever get up that way, you'll find both at Kelly's Knob and Hidden Valley (Mirima National Park) over a Wet season. Such impressive animals, the Glebopalma. Preferred habitat (from google).






- - - Updated - - -



Oshkii said:


> I always wondered how reptiles such as Kimberly Rock Monitors, Pilbara Rock Monitors, and other species that are endemic to Western Australia end up in other states when we ourselves cannot collect or keep them. Is it possible for outside states to get permits to collect in WA?



I believe they're legal in every other State but Vic/ Tas. They are exported from breeders in WA, with a fee attached. What about breeding Pilb's overseas (America, UK and Europe, to name a few),crossing Kims with Pilbs....?


----------



## Nero Egernia (Jul 19, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> I believe they're legal in every other State but Vic/ Tas. They are exported from breeders in WA, with a fee attached. What about breeding Pilb's overseas (America, UK and Europe, to name a few),crossing Kims with Pilbs....?



Both species mentioned are not on the West Australian keeping list.

EDIT: I never knew that they could interbreed. Very strange.


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 19, 2016)

If they can breed Womas and Ball pythons I'm not surprised that those yanks can breed pilbs and kimbos. Who would ruin perfectly good monitors anyways?


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 19, 2016)

A Yankee herp acquaintance once told me that it's virtually impossible to get a pure carpet over there; they are all jungle or coastal crosses. I think there's one guy who breeds pure bredli's, but that's all.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're allowed to keep them in Victoria, get a tristis orientalis. Absolutely stunning small monitor, IMO.


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 19, 2016)

Yeah, though I like the Pilbara Tristis (or Perth ones if you find any!) but really Tristis, Acanthurus, Gilleni, Gouldii, Panoptes or Spenceri are all fairly decent starter monitors


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 19, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> If it's your first monitor, you're better off starting with a Gillens or Accies, even tristis imo. All these are pretty hardy captives and available to keep in Vic. Some tristis look better than kimbo's anyway. I think they're over rated, jmo.





pinefamily said:


> If you're allowed to keep them in Victoria, get a tristis orientalis. Absolutely stunning small monitor, IMO.



The Tristis Orientalis are probably next on my list. I'm a little partial to a monitor with a thin/sleek face and body. So I may look further into these if no one has any suggestions on how to lobby for them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 19, 2016)

I think you're at their mercy, as suggested above, although I remember reading somewhere that the VHS was lobbying the authorities.


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 19, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> Both species mentioned are not on the West Australian keeping list.
> 
> EDIT: I never knew that they could interbreed. Very strange.



Apologies for the bum steer SA used to breed the Kimbo's (Reptile City) and there's def some in NSW/ QLD, just haven't heard much for a long time.

I can't get Rosenbergs into Vic, despie them being native there. I thought anyone with a demonstrator's Licence could get them on the Shedule, but it seems No. To quote a well know Vic based Wildlife demo company:Nah they're not, we have to apply for off schedule species on a case by case basis, and they're off schedule. Everyone that I know that's applied for them has been knocked back. I believe Kimmies are off schedule also.


----------



## Smittiferous (Jul 19, 2016)

[MENTION=41911]imported-varanus[/MENTION] I'm especially spewing about the lack of Rosenbergs on the schedule after seeing your latest batch. How often does is the Vic schedule updated, does anyone know?


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 19, 2016)

I've heard Snake Ranch swapped an Albino spotted for Kimmies with Reptile City, here in SA. Maybe a breeding programme in the pipeline for those interested?


----------



## mrkos (Jul 20, 2016)

I was fortunate enough to obtain a hatchling pair of kimbos back in 2011. They are a truly awesom animal to own absolutely incredible to look at in the flesh especially as youngsters. I will never forget opening the box and seeing them for the first time out of the box. They are rather easy to keep and maintain once you establish a routine with them and they will readily accept pink rats from your hand. Mine never bred and I sold them in 2014 as I realised I couldn't put the time in their day to day upkeep with the arrival of my third son. They went to a much experienced keeper who I believe may have successfully bred them although I am
not sure. They are a great monitor to keep if you are home all the time and you can continually monitor them and their enclosure.


----------



## phatty (Jul 20, 2016)

BredliFreak said:


> Yeah, though I like the Pilbara Tristis (or Perth ones if you find any!) but really Tristis, Acanthurus, Gilleni, Gouldii, Panoptes or Spenceri are all fairly decent starter monitors



panoptes really???


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 20, 2016)

mrkos said:


> I was fortunate enough to obtain a hatchling pair of kimbos back in 2011. They are a truly awesom animal to own absolutely incredible to look at in the flesh especially as youngsters. I will never forget opening the box and seeing them for the first time out of the box. They are rather easy to keep and maintain once you establish a routine with them and they will readily accept pink rats from your hand. Mine never bred and I sold them in 2014 as I realised I couldn't put the time in their day to day upkeep with the arrival of my third son. They went to a much experienced keeper who I believe may have successfully bred them although I am
> not sure. They are a great monitor to keep if you are home all the time and you can continually monitor them and their enclosure.



Thanks for the info but sadly, unless I move states or encourage every display license holder to lobby for them all at once, I doubt I'll be getting one in the near future. 

I do have a fair few bits and pieces to sort out prior to any purchase though... ie credit card paid off and a new PC. So maybe they'll have been added by then. 

In the meantime I'll keep researching. 



imported-varanus said:


> Preferred habitat (from google).



Also, this makes me want to go herping so so badly!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 20, 2016)

phatty said:


> panoptes really???



Plenty of people choose panoptes as their first. It's essentially just a larger gouldii


----------



## phatty (Jul 20, 2016)

I have a panoptes that is ok but still quite aggressive. Most people I deal with say they are a very aggressive species. I do find them to be quite different in the wild compared to gouldi. have you deal with them personally. it like every one has laceys as there first monitor then try to sell them a few years later when they can't handle them.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 20, 2016)

BredliFreak said:


> Yeah, though I like the Pilbara Tristis (or Perth ones if you find any!) but really Tristis, Acanthurus, Gilleni, Gouldii, Panoptes or Spenceri are all fairly decent starter monitors



Had an Ackie bite the tip of my finger just a few days ago and it was not pleasant!! Gouldii's are wonderful, their war paint is stunning but I'd be uber disappointed if I acquired one that didn't have as wonderful a personality as [MENTION=32194]Smittiferous[/MENTION]'s Flavi. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phatty (Jul 20, 2016)

this is penny my panoptes she is wonderful she tried to drag me into the enclosure. 


she is a bit older now full size female I believe


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 20, 2016)

phatty said:


> this is penny my panoptes she is wonderful she tried to drag me into the enclosure.
> View attachment 318603
> 
> she is a bit older now full size female I believe
> View attachment 318604



Oh wow! She is stunning! Love her war paint and that yellow is wonderful. 

Pretty certain her eyes were bigger than her belly however!!!

Do you have any pics of the aftermath of that bite? I'm a bit partial to reptile gore. [emoji50]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 20, 2016)

phatty said:


> this is penny my panoptes she is wonderful she tried to drag me into the enclosure.
> View attachment 318603
> 
> she is a bit older now full size female I believe
> View attachment 318604


I have never owned a monitor but from other keepers I have talked to they seem to be an OK starter (generally people have them as their second monitor but they don't see why not) but I guess their size is a large factor. I have seen dog tame panoptes and spazzo panoptes so I wouldn't discount them.


----------



## Nero Egernia (Jul 20, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> Apologies for the bum steer SA used to breed the Kimbo's (Reptile City) and there's def some in NSW/ QLD, just haven't heard much for a long time.
> 
> I can't get Rosenbergs into Vic, despie them being native there. I thought anyone with a demonstrator's Licence could get them on the Shedule, but it seems No. To quote a well know Vic based Wildlife demo company:Nah they're not, we have to apply for off schedule species on a case by case basis, and they're off schedule. Everyone that I know that's applied for them has been knocked back. I believe Kimmies are off schedule also.



No worries. Still, I wonder how Reptile City managed to get them unless they were collected from populations in the NT? It doesn't matter now anyway. Apologies for derailing the thread!


----------



## mrkos (Jul 20, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> No worries. Still, I wonder how Reptile City managed to get them unless they were collected from populations in the NT? It doesn't matter now anyway. Apologies for derailing the thread!


reptile city got their original specimens off Gavin Bedford so they told me. It kind of disappoints me they got rid of their breeding stock as they definetely had breeding them routine and produced quite a large amount of hatchlings over several years these which have spread out in private collections around the country. Most private keepers either haven't managed to breed their pairs or have and have kept the offspring. If I had the space and time and was breeding them I wouldn't be selling any the bubs are just too cute.


----------



## CrazyNut (Jul 20, 2016)

I'm going to make a submission for kimberley's to be added when I get a chance. If it is succesful they will be avaiavlible on advance. My sources tell its a bit of a tedious process and avaiablility is taken into account (though if avaiablility is important why da heck is Typanocryptus tetraporaphora on basic?????).


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 20, 2016)

Without sidetracking the thread, I think that someone going for their first monitor should start with a smaller one. So many get a lacie or even a sandie, and wonder why they're not like beardies.


----------



## CrazyNut (Jul 20, 2016)

Lacie shouldn't even be on basic. Best beginner monitor is acathanthurus, easy to keep, easy to get a hold off, and fairly cheap as far as monitors go.


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 20, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Without sidetracking the thread, I think that someone going for their first monitor should start with a smaller one. So many get a lacie or even a sandie, and wonder why they're not like beardies.



Why are sandies bad firsts? But definitely agree with you there!
[MENTION=40362]CrazyNut[/MENTION] A lot of awesome species are looked over and they are so rare but always on the license list, and yet species everyone wants and are generally more available are denied. Stupid logic isn't it


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 20, 2016)

In the scheme of things, sandies aren't too bad as a larger monitor. But you do see an awful lot for sale as juveniles/yearlings, with various "reasons" for sale.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 20, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Without sidetracking the thread, I think that someone going for their first monitor should start with a smaller one. So many get a lacie or even a sandie, and wonder why they're not like beardies.



I agree completely. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nero Egernia (Jul 21, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Without sidetracking the thread, I think that someone going for their first monitor should start with a smaller one. So many get a lacie or even a sandie, and wonder why they're not like beardies.



I'll probably cop a bit here, but while I can understand the reasoning, I don't wholly agree. Not everyone who goes for a monitor is looking for a Bearded Dragon. Obtaining a species that one never really wanted in the first place so that they can obtain a different species later can be pointless, and can ultimately prove as a disappointing keeping experience. If one had the knowledge and the desire to learn then they may be an excellent keeper for something imposing such as large varanids or other so called "advanced" reptiles, without caring for the "beginner" species. All one needs to do is serious research, perhaps view the species of interest in a captive and wild environment, and then they're there. Why waste a year or more caring for a reptile you were never passionate about? Also, what happens to all the unwanted beginner species when their time is up and the keeper is able to proceed to the reptile that they actually wanted?


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 21, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> I'll probably cop a bit here, but while I can understand the reasoning, I don't wholly agree. Not everyone who goes for a monitor is looking for a Bearded Dragon. Obtaining a species that one never really wanted in the first place so that they can obtain a different species later can be pointless, and can ultimately prove as a disappointing keeping experience. If one had the knowledge and the desire to learn then they may be an excellent keeper for something imposing such as large varanids or other so called "advanced" reptiles, without caring for the "beginner" species. All one needs to do is serious research, perhaps view the species of interest in a captive and wild environment, and then they're there. Why waste a year or more caring for a reptile you were never passionate about? Also, what happens to all the unwanted beginner species when their time is up and the keeper is able to proceed to the reptile that they actually wanted?



While all of that is correct, the flaw in that logic is that people don't research enough and end up with an animal that is far to big and intolerant of them to be handleable. They may also lack the space required for a large monitor and ultimately they move it on because they can't meet its needs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mrkos (Jul 21, 2016)

My favourite monitor of all time to keep would be the Pygmy mulga they have the look and attitude of a much larger lizard yet can be kept in a small enclosure and are basic to look after. I have noticed there is not many for sale these days let's hope they don't disappear from the hobby in years to come


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 21, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> I'll probably cop a bit here, but while I can understand the reasoning, I don't wholly agree. Not everyone who goes for a monitor is looking for a Bearded Dragon. Obtaining a species that one never really wanted in the first place so that they can obtain a different species later can be pointless, and can ultimately prove as a disappointing keeping experience. If one had the knowledge and the desire to learn then they may be an excellent keeper for something imposing such as large varanids or other so called "advanced" reptiles, without caring for the "beginner" species. All one needs to do is serious research, perhaps view the species of interest in a captive and wild environment, and then they're there. Why waste a year or more caring for a reptile you were never passionate about? Also, what happens to all the unwanted beginner species when their time is up and the keeper is able to proceed to the reptile that they actually wanted?


 [MENTION=41840]Oshkii[/MENTION], you do make some valid points. I have to say that there a lot (if not the majority) of people who don't do their research properly, whether it be space requirements, temperament, or future size. Getting a lacie or panoptes as a first monitor, and getting your hand shredded due to lack of due care, isn't ideal. And even on here, we still see posts from people asking basic questions about reptile care that should have been researched before purchase. I saw a post the other day asking about how to breed pythons. It's for these kind of people, and for the due care of the monitors, that there needs to be some sort of safeguards in place.
So perhaps having to care for a smaller monitor first isn't the best option; maybe a scaled licensing fee? If you want a larger monitor, you pay a higher fee; that would deter a lot of people.

- - - Updated - - -

And [MENTION=40362]CrazyNut[/MENTION], I nearly had to get a beer for my own post, lol.


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 21, 2016)

On the positive side, a small monitor is never capable of this sort of damage and will give you valuable insight into feeding response and reading a larger species. I agree, Gillens are a great starter, easy to maintain and breed, if you wish.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 21, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> On the positive side, a small monitor is never capable of this sort of damage and will give you valuable insight into feeding response and reading a larger species. I agree, Gillens are a great starter, easy to maintain and breed, if you wish.



And here I was thinking an Ackie bite on the tip of my finger was painful.....

Yep, sticking with smaller species me thinks! :shock:


----------



## phatty (Jul 21, 2016)

luck my bite wasn't to bad just a bit of bleeding as she was only small and didn't thrash


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 21, 2016)

This was purported to be an incident with a tree surgeon and a Lace Monitor. The story goes, he was removing it from the tree before it was lopped


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 21, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> This was purported to be an incident with a tree surgeon and a Lace Monitor. The story goes, he was removing it from the tree before it was lopped



Those are some gnarly wounds right there!

I feel like you're trying to scare me out of owning monitors at all!

Although, in saying that, what kind of idiot would attempt to remove a wild monitor from a tree?


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 21, 2016)

Stompsy said:


> Those are some gnarly wounds right there!
> 
> I feel like you're trying to scare me out of owning monitors at all!
> 
> Although, in saying that, what kind of idiot would attempt to remove a wild monitor from a tree?


Probably some Steve irwin wannabe bogan (that saying Steve irwin wouldn't use wild animals)

Gotta love a bit of gore, especially when you find it on a moron (what can I say I am a sadist)


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 21, 2016)

"I feel like you're trying to scare me out of owning monitors at all!" Not at all, Stompsy, just making the point that a "mistake" with a small monitor species is far less likely to have the long term consequences of the same mistake with a larger monitor. The first 3 were feeding response bites (bite and release) there's another level, the bite and shake, the stuff of nightmares.



- - - Updated - - -

[video=youtube_share;vDbSc8ghEio]https://youtu.be/vDbSc8ghEio[/video]


----------



## Sheldoncooper (Jul 21, 2016)

Do u know anyone with lace monitor adults if so go and spend some time with them. I have 2 5ft bells females. One of them is a ***** the other is a angrier *****.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 21, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> "I feel like you're trying to scare me out of owning monitors at all!" Not at all, Stompsy, just making the point that a "mistake" with a small monitor species is far less likely to have the long term consequences of the same mistake with a larger monitor. The first 3 were feeding response bites (bite and release) there's another level, the bite and shake, the stuff of nightmares.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh. Wow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 21, 2016)

Sheldoncooper said:


> Do u know anyone with lace monitor adults if so go and spend some time with them. I have 2 5ft bells females. One of them is a ***** the other is a angrier *****.



I have absolutely no plans to get a Lacey! A small monitor will do me just fine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sheldoncooper (Jul 21, 2016)

Gillens are an awesome monitor there entertaining


----------



## CrazyNut (Jul 21, 2016)

Varanus doreanus can give very nasty bite. Venom is pretty nasty. As easy as Varanus gillenii are to keep, the problem arises with avaiablility, they can be a pain in the a*s to get a hold of. Great if you can get them though. A bit underated given they aren't spoken of too much is Varanus mertensi' alsthough not a first monitor, for someone that wants to transition into larger monitor, probably the best choice. Specers is another great choice for the same reason as mertensi'.

Varanus brevicauda are up on my list. Need my advance. Not a difficult species from what I here, there size and stubby body make them one of the coolest and intersting of all native Varanus. I think I would take a brevi over giganteus if given the choice. 
[MENTION=38465]pinefamily[/MENTION] HA!


----------



## Sheldoncooper (Jul 21, 2016)

I agree with mertensi probably being the best step up into larger monitors they are relatively easy to keep very rarely bite and dont have a hard bite like alot of monitors of a similar size. However getting tagged by the tail around the ears will make u swear.


----------



## Smittiferous (Jul 21, 2016)

Well, I just met my first gillens while at KVH this evening... I can see the appeal!


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 21, 2016)

I went to buy a gillens from a breeder, and came home with a red ackie instead, lol. [MENTION=40362]CrazyNut[/MENTION], your post came close mate, lol.


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 21, 2016)

Off topic, but, on the subject of Gillens. Very nice little monitor, heaps of character.


----------



## Nero Egernia (Jul 22, 2016)

Stompsy said:


> While all of that is correct, the flaw in that logic is that people don't research enough and end up with an animal that is far to big and intolerant of them to be handleable. They may also lack the space required for a large monitor and ultimately they move it on because they can't meet its needs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I see your point, and it's a good one. But the people who do generally research their chosen species are not likely to go on a forum and seek help, and so we are more likely to see those who realized a little too late that their new pet lizard may in fact be "too much" lizard for them. My post was not just directly aimed at large varanids however, it was also aimed at other "advanced" species. Still, the same could be said for someone who obtained a Beardy or a Carpet Python. How many of them do we see that are up for sale for various reasons such as "don't have the space" or "don't have the time that they deserve". While these species may not be particularly lethal, although a large Carpet Python may have the potential, there are still people who fail to research before obtaining their reptile. The same could be said for any animal for that matter. Domesticated animals such as dogs and horses could also prove lethal and yet it is not required to obtain a type of advanced licence to keep them. 



pinefamily said:


> @Oshkii, you do make some valid points. I have to say that there a lot (if not the majority) of people who don't do their research properly, whether it be space requirements, temperament, or future size. Getting a lacie or panoptes as a first monitor, and getting your hand shredded due to lack of due care, isn't ideal. And even on here, we still see posts from people asking basic questions about reptile care that should have been researched before purchase. I saw a post the other day asking about how to breed pythons. It's for these kind of people, and for the due care of the monitors, that there needs to be some sort of safeguards in place.
> So perhaps having to care for a smaller monitor first isn't the best option; maybe a scaled licensing fee? If you want a larger monitor, you pay a higher fee; that would deter a lot of people.



I don't think that comment is fair. Keeping a reptile is different from breeding. Both require different levels of understanding. It's also a good thing that people ask questions. They are showing a desire to learn. 

In regards to your suggestion of a scaled licensing fee, I believe that WA has a system fairly similar. The higher the category, the more expensive it is to acquire and to upkeep that licence. However, I have learned that some people who have the money and years to acquire the higher categories may not be well suited to keeping the "advanced" species at all. I have seen a few examples of this. Perhaps breeders of large varanids may be able to educate their prospective buyers, or at least point naive keepers towards a better species that best suits them. 

But this debate has been done numerous times and I understand everyone's points (the pictures and video are a nice touch). Once again I have derailed the thread, and I apologise for that. It's my opinion only, and it frustrates me that restrictions are put in place for those who can't be bothered to research their chosen species, and in doing so can diminish the keeping experience for those who have spent the time and effort to do things right.


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 22, 2016)

[MENTION=41840]Oshkii[/MENTION], once again you have made a good argument for your point. It's not an easy fix, and I guess no matter what is put in place the idiots of the world will still manage to buy the reptiles. That's a good point about dogs in particular. When we went to the Animal Welfare League last year to adopt a dog, I was amazed at the number of "American staffy" types up for adoption. Same deal as the reptiles I guess, cute as puppies or good idea at the time, but then they grow and/or show bad behaviour traits (that's just a generalization BTW, I don't want a secondary line of debate on here lol).
And I only used the example of the person asking about breeding to show my point about lack of research. We read nearly every book we could find when we got our first bredli, as well as read thread after thread on here. Sometimes I think there are some who just can't be bothered. These are the ones we are discussing. And while we might not agree on the way to do it, I think we are all on the same page for the end result: well looked after animals.
And I have to apologise for going off topic as well.


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 22, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> Off topic, but, on the subject of Gillens. Very nice little monitor, heaps of character.



Are they adults? Could we have a full enclosure shot please, it looks very nice (particularly the triodia!)


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 22, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> Off topic, but, on the subject of Gillens. Very nice little monitor, heaps of character.



I met two of these guys last night, fully grown and I think I've made my decision. 

Now to scope some out somewhere. 

Anyone have any available?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 22, 2016)

As adults, they loose some of the patterning, but what you loose in colour, you gain in "personality". there is some variety in size and colour form, as you'd expect from such a wide ranging varanid.


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 22, 2016)

I love your enclosure! And in the last pic is that a baby or another species??


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 22, 2016)

I think it was a gilleni and a caudolineatus, that's why I deleted it.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 22, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> As adults, they loose some of the patterning, but what you loose in colour, you gain in "personality". there is some variety in size and colour form, as you'd expect from such a wide ranging varanid.



I was also advised these guys will happily live together in one enclosure... I assumed that meant one male and one female but are you able to shed any further light on this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 22, 2016)

I've never had any probs with any combination I've kept, but I have heard others mention having a few issues with introducing unrelated, older animals. Males are easily distinguished by larger size, especially the head. The second pic down is a male and two females. male/ male combat with Gillens is a comical affair, compared to say ackies, where they seem to often tear pieces off each other.

- - - Updated - - -

VHS has an article on Gillens by Sdaji which pretty much covers everything re husbandry.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 22, 2016)

imported-varanus said:


> I've never had any probs with any combination I've kept, but I have heard others mention having a few issues with introducing unrelated, older animals. Males are easily distinguished by larger size, especially the head. The second pic down is a male and two females. male/ male combat with Gillens is a comical affair, compared to say ackies, where they seem to often tear pieces off each other.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> VHS has an article on Gillens by Sdaji which pretty much covers everything re husbandry.



Fantastic. I'll take a look. I'm thinking of getting a male and a female. 

Thanks so much for all your help (and everyone else's) 

And in regards to the thread derailment, it actually ended up being quite informative/entertaining! 

Thanks again guys, I'll be sure to research my little heart out and keep you guys updated on any progress once I am able to obtain some of these little guys. [emoji851]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## imported-varanus (Jul 22, 2016)

T'was your thread after all. Great choice imo and a positive first experience into the House Of Varanid!


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 22, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> I see your point, and it's a good one. But the people who do generally research their chosen species are not likely to go on a forum and seek help, and so we are more likely to see those who realized a little too late that their new pet lizard may in fact be "too much" lizard for them. My post was not just directly aimed at large varanids however, it was also aimed at other "advanced" species. Still, the same could be said for someone who obtained a Beardy or a Carpet Python. How many of them do we see that are up for sale for various reasons such as "don't have the space" or "don't have the time that they deserve". While these species may not be particularly lethal, although a large Carpet Python may have the potential, there are still people who fail to research before obtaining their reptile. The same could be said for any animal for that matter. Domesticated animals such as dogs and horses could also prove lethal and yet it is not required to obtain a type of advanced licence to keep them.



This is unfortunately very true! There are far too many posts on this site and others of this nature and while I understand in some cases, re homing an animal is required, if a little research is done prior to obtaining said critter, these things can usually be avoided. The only difference I see between keeping a horse or dog or any other domesticated animal is the husbandry requirements are at a more basic level, although you are definitely correct in saying they can and have been in the past, proven lethal.

And once I have these small monitors, I have potentially been offered a Mertens.... there will be a lot of thought put into that before I make a decision as I recognise that they are large monitors and need to ensure I can offer the care and environment they require. And I need to be confident that I can handle such a large animal also!


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 22, 2016)

Wouldn't be an adult Mertens by any chance would it?


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 22, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Wouldn't be an adult Mertens by any chance would it?



Hehe.... that one is spoken for but if breeding occurs....


----------



## Nero Egernia (Jul 22, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> @Oshkii, once again you have made a good argument for your point. It's not an easy fix, and I guess no matter what is put in place the idiots of the world will still manage to buy the reptiles. That's a good point about dogs in particular. When we went to the Animal Welfare League last year to adopt a dog, I was amazed at the number of "American staffy" types up for adoption. Same deal as the reptiles I guess, cute as puppies or good idea at the time, but then they grow and/or show bad behaviour traits (that's just a generalization BTW, I don't want a secondary line of debate on here lol).
> And I only used the example of the person asking about breeding to show my point about lack of research. We read nearly every book we could find when we got our first bredli, as well as read thread after thread on here. Sometimes I think there are some who just can't be bothered. These are the ones we are discussing. And while we might not agree on the way to do it, I think we are all on the same page for the end result: well looked after animals.
> And I have to apologise for going off topic as well.



Very true there. I'm always on the look out for more herp books!  



Stompsy said:


> This is unfortunately very true! There are far too many posts on this site and others of this nature and while I understand in some cases, re homing an animal is required, if a little research is done prior to obtaining said critter, these things can usually be avoided. The only difference I see between keeping a horse or dog or any other domesticated animal is the husbandry requirements are at a more basic level, although you are definitely correct in saying they can and have been in the past, proven lethal.
> 
> And once I have these small monitors, I have potentially been offered a Mertens.... there will be a lot of thought put into that before I make a decision as I recognise that they are large monitors and need to ensure I can offer the care and environment they require. And I need to be confident that I can handle such a large animal also!



I personally believe that keeping dogs in particular requires more responsibility than keeping reptiles. Dogs need constant exercise, attention, socializing, grooming, and hours of training, of which many owners fail to carry out and their dogs become nuisance animals at best and outright dangerous at worst. For me, reptiles are so much simpler and more enjoyable. Give them the correct housing and diet and you're good to go! But that's another debate for another time. Good luck with whatever monitor you decide to get!


----------



## CrazyNut (Jul 22, 2016)

Sheldoncooper said:


> I agree with mertensi probably being the best step up into larger monitors they are relatively easy to keep very rarely bite and dont have a hard bite like alot of monitors of a similar size. However getting tagged by the tail around the ears will make u swear.


Its not that bad after the tenth whack! I have only seen one mertensi bite. My father was hand feeding my 4 year old a fish, he got the fish in his gob hole with one swift jump but also got the fingers in the process. Lets just say my farther learnt his lesson 
[MENTION=41911]imported-varanus[/MENTION] very nice gillenii you have there! Love tjose guys, there sale alwasy escapes me grrrr
[MENTION=41840]Oshkii[/MENTION] and [MENTION=38465]pinefamily[/MENTION] VIC has the scaled licencing fee system. It sucks. Advance is almost double the cost of basic. You have people that have money and no experience and it doesn't effect them at all since you don't need to have basic for x ammount of time. Than you have people like me who have all the neccessary experience yet can't afford the jump from $93 a year to $173 a year. This system just causes frustracian. Plus there are so many advaced species on the "basic" licence and so many basic species on the "advanced" licence it makes it absolutely useless and unecssary. I have said so many times and will continue to say so, species like varanus varius belong on advance only, species like Nerphurus asper belong on basic.


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 22, 2016)

Advanced here in SA also costs nearly double, but you need referees to show you can keep a particular species. Also, there is a review under way to "simplify" our basic and advanced lists. Mostly good, except that all larger monitors will be on advanced. Currently most of the larger monitors are on basic, except for lace monitor and perentie.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 22, 2016)

I believe to keep anything venomous on an advanced in Victoria you need references too, but for everything else you can just go straight to it. I got my advanced straight away because I wanted a roughy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CrazyNut (Jul 22, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Advanced here in SA also costs nearly double, but you need referees to show you can keep a particular species. Also, there is a review under way to "simplify" our basic and advanced lists. Mostly good, except that all larger monitors will be on advanced. Currently most of the larger monitors are on basic, except for lace monitor and perentie.


Thats not a bad idea. Not the best idea but certainly not the worst. At least you can keep perentie.


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 22, 2016)

Not sure, but I think there is a scale for vens. You can start with a certain species, then work your way to others. Not sure of the details.


----------



## Sdaji (Jul 23, 2016)

Those are some very nice pictures of Gillen's Monitors! I spent a few years breeding oodles of them, they're absolutely brilliant little critters, one of the reptiles I miss most. When I started thinking about keeping them, few Australians could manage to even keep them alive long term. I looked at what the Americans were doing and basically copied them with my own tweaks, and they utterly thrived and bred like flies. For a while I tried to tell people how to keep them when they were buying them, but no one would believe me and they were having the same troubles as ever, then I wrote an article for Reptiles Australia magazine which was in print so people took more seriously and it seemed to help a lot of people (and I'm sure around that time other people started copying the Americans and also working it out independently, I'm not trying to single handedly take credit). I saw someone mention the brief care sheet I wrote for the VHS, I can scarcely remember it, it was a long time ago now, but there doesn't seem to be much information about them (back at that time I was getting phone calls and online requests for information about them all the time, it was crazy  Yet even then almost no one wanted to take my advice and still kept them like snakes with blue globes on a thermostat set to 28 degrees for heat  ).

You could almost boil the care sheet down to one sentence: Blasting hot basking spot.

Or a paragraph:
They're not pythons. They need a blasting hot basking spot of at least 50 degrees, and up to 80+ degrees is great. I've had them bask close to 90 degrees, yes, Celsius, and touched them when their skin was so hot my hurt my skin a little. That's the #1 mistake people used to make with them. At a flat ambient temperature of 30ish degrees, as most people used to use, they're going to be lucky to survive.

I used to get them to breed at under 12 months and produce a clutch every 3-5 weeks during the breeding season. I also never had an infertile egg and I never had one fail to hatch. If I ever live in Australia again I'll probably get back into them, I really loved them.


----------



## mrkos (Jul 23, 2016)

Sdaji said:


> Those are some very nice pictures of Gillen's Monitors! I spent a few years breeding oodles of them, they're absolutely brilliant little critters, one of the reptiles I miss most. When I started thinking about keeping them, few Australians could manage to even keep them alive long term. I looked at what the Americans were doing and basically copied them with my own tweaks, and they utterly thrived and bred like flies. For a while I tried to tell people how to keep them when they were buying them, but no one would believe me and they were having the same troubles as ever, then I wrote an article for Reptiles Australia magazine which was in print so people took more seriously and it seemed to help a lot of people (and I'm sure around that time other people started copying the Americans and also working it out independently, I'm not trying to single handedly take credit). I saw someone mention the brief care sheet I wrote for the VHS, I can scarcely remember it, it was a long time ago now, but there doesn't seem to be much information about them (back at that time I was getting phone calls and online requests for information about them all the time, it was crazy  Yet even then almost no one wanted to take my advice and still kept them like snakes with blue globes on a thermostat set to 28 degrees for heat  ).
> 
> You could almost boil the care sheet down to one sentence: Blasting hot basking spot.
> 
> ...


I found varanus.net the us Varanid keeping forum an absolute wealth of information when I was keeping my Glauerti. They have some very active senior forum members who have been breeding small monitors species such as glauerti and pilbarensis for decades. A lot of the information about keeping glauerti over here was a little bit conflicting, but the end of the day it boiled down to three things. A hot basking spot, numerous crevice like hides around the enclosure and bit of humidity they seemed to thrive. Damn I miss those lizards.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 23, 2016)

Sdaji said:


> Those are some very nice pictures of Gillen's Monitors! I spent a few years breeding oodles of them, they're absolutely brilliant little critters, one of the reptiles I miss most. When I started thinking about keeping them, few Australians could manage to even keep them alive long term. I looked at what the Americans were doing and basically copied them with my own tweaks, and they utterly thrived and bred like flies. For a while I tried to tell people how to keep them when they were buying them, but no one would believe me and they were having the same troubles as ever, then I wrote an article for Reptiles Australia magazine which was in print so people took more seriously and it seemed to help a lot of people (and I'm sure around that time other people started copying the Americans and also working it out independently, I'm not trying to single handedly take credit). I saw someone mention the brief care sheet I wrote for the VHS, I can scarcely remember it, it was a long time ago now, but there doesn't seem to be much information about them (back at that time I was getting phone calls and online requests for information about them all the time, it was crazy  Yet even then almost no one wanted to take my advice and still kept them like snakes with blue globes on a thermostat set to 28 degrees for heat  ).
> 
> You could almost boil the care sheet down to one sentence: Blasting hot basking spot.
> 
> ...



Well then, I'll have to pick your brain as some of the care sheets I've read completely contradict each other. And yes, I read the VHS article. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CrazyNut (Jul 23, 2016)

Sdaji said:


> Those are some very nice pictures of Gillen's Monitors! I spent a few years breeding oodles of them, they're absolutely brilliant little critters, one of the reptiles I miss most. When I started thinking about keeping them, few Australians could manage to even keep them alive long term. I looked at what the Americans were doing and basically copied them with my own tweaks, and they utterly thrived and bred like flies. For a while I tried to tell people how to keep them when they were buying them, but no one would believe me and they were having the same troubles as ever, then I wrote an article for Reptiles Australia magazine which was in print so people took more seriously and it seemed to help a lot of people (and I'm sure around that time other people started copying the Americans and also working it out independently, I'm not trying to single handedly take credit). I saw someone mention the brief care sheet I wrote for the VHS, I can scarcely remember it, it was a long time ago now, but there doesn't seem to be much information about them (back at that time I was getting phone calls and online requests for information about them all the time, it was crazy  Yet even then almost no one wanted to take my advice and still kept them like snakes with blue globes on a thermostat set to 28 degrees for heat  ).
> 
> You could almost boil the care sheet down to one sentence: Blasting hot basking spot.
> 
> ...


28C??????? No UVB????? Come on how rediculous can you be??? All you have to do is look at where they live! I'm sitting here shaking my head thinking how could these early piarneres get it so wrong? Was it all small monitors or just gillenii?


----------



## Bushfire (Jul 23, 2016)

- - - Updated - - -


----------



## Sheldoncooper (Jul 23, 2016)

Bushfire said:


> View attachment 318661
> 
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...



Extremely jealous. There awesome


----------



## BredliFreak (Jul 23, 2016)

Bushfire said:


> View attachment 318661
> 
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...



MMMMMMM red glauerti


----------



## pinefamily (Jul 23, 2016)

Great photos Bushfire. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## CrazyNut (Jul 23, 2016)

Bushfire said:


> View attachment 318661
> 
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


I is all jelly. You are so lucky.


----------



## Stompsy (Jul 24, 2016)

Bushfire said:


> View attachment 318661
> 
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...



Well that's just mean. They are just fantastic. But you sir/ma'am are a tease!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 26, 2016)

Stompsy: The VHS care sheet wasn't the article I was talking about. It was published in Reptiles Australia  A lot of people read that VHS care sheet and assumed it was the full article.



CrazyNut said:


> 28C??????? No UVB????? Come on how rediculous can you be??? All you have to do is look at where they live! I'm sitting here shaking my head thinking how could these early piarneres get it so wrong? Was it all small monitors or just gillenii?



Actually, a lot of those people used the UV, but UV is a complete waste of time. I experimented with dragons, skinks and monitors, it never made any difference, even after multiple generations. UV is one of the biggest myths in the international herp hobby. Yes, in some cases they can use it to synthesise vitamin D3, and yes, in the wild it's probably of some importance, but even using the expensive UV tubes, I've never found it to make any difference to captive reptiles, and if you look at what the big breeders do (as opposed to what they say) they don't bother with artificial UV. Dietary D3 supplements are critical in many cases, your herps will die or be really unwell without it. Artificial UV is an expensive waste of time. But no one ever made any money out of not selling UV lighting, so no one has ever bothered to stamp the myth out.

It was all small monitors. Steve Irwin actually testified under oath in court saying that small monitors were impossible to breed in captivity (arrogantly based on the fact that he was unable to do it), in order to prove someone must have poached theirs, even though they'd actually bred them - it used to be literally considered impossible to breed small monitors in captivity  Things have changed a lot in the last 20 years. When I first advertised captive bred gilleni in Australia, I had a lot of amazed people calling me, mostly not wanting to buy them, just wanting to talk to me about it. It was really rare and unusual back then. I just copied what the Americans had been doing, bought hatchlings and had them breeding within months.


----------



## Grunter023 (Jun 20, 2017)

Sdaji said:


> Those are some very nice pictures of Gillen's Monitors! I spent a few years breeding oodles of them, they're absolutely brilliant little critters, one of the reptiles I miss most. When I started thinking about keeping them, few Australians could manage to even keep them alive long term. I looked at what the Americans were doing and basically copied them with my own tweaks, and they utterly thrived and bred like flies. For a while I tried to tell people how to keep them when they were buying them, but no one would believe me and they were having the same troubles as ever, then I wrote an article for Reptiles Australia magazine which was in print so people took more seriously and it seemed to help a lot of people (and I'm sure around that time other people started copying the Americans and also working it out independently, I'm not trying to single handedly take credit). I saw someone mention the brief care sheet I wrote for the VHS, I can scarcely remember it, it was a long time ago now, but there doesn't seem to be much information about them (back at that time I was getting phone calls and online requests for information about them all the time, it was crazy [emoji14] Yet even then almost no one wanted to take my advice and still kept them like snakes with blue globes on a thermostat set to 28 degrees for heat [emoji14] ).
> 
> You could almost boil the care sheet down to one sentence: Blasting hot basking spot.
> 
> ...


Hey Sdaji do you happen to know which issue your Gillen's article was in Reptiles Australia? Or do you have a copy of the article? 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Imported_tuatara (Jan 9, 2018)

Stompsy said:


> And here I was thinking an Ackie bite on the tip of my finger was painful.....
> 
> Yep, sticking with smaller species me thinks! :shock:





Stompsy said:


> I have absolutely no plans to get a Lacey! A small monitor will do me just fine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 oh how things can change!


----------



## Stompsy (Jan 9, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> oh how things can change!


Hahahahaha!


----------



## Smittiferous (Jan 9, 2018)

She had no choice. It just arrived out of the blue.


----------



## Stompsy (Jan 9, 2018)

Smittiferous said:


> She had no choice. It just arrived out of the blue.


This is true. Both of my Lacey’s have been gifts from Smitti. 

We are currently building a massive enclosure for Enki and I’m hoping he’ll appreciate the massive amount of space he’ll have once we are done.


----------

