# GTP Prices



## Frustration (Apr 4, 2010)

Hey...
.. 
i havent really been follow the GTP market recently...
but i just noticed URS are selling there juveniles for 1400 each...
and last i remember they were up around 7000
...
im just wondering what has lead to such a dramatic price drop... 
and if they will continue to drop even further over the next few years...
or if these prices are simply because of the quality of the snakes...
..
any information would be great...
(the other explanation is my mind is completely shot and the prices have never been that high, seems to be the more likely situation)
thanks


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## Kenshin (Apr 4, 2010)

Frustration said:


> Hey...
> ..
> i havent really been follow the GTP market recently...
> but i just noticed URS are selling there juveniles for 1400 each...
> ...



i have also been looking at these tonight and i saw the URS animals (great bargain) most private breeders have theyre gtps at 3-3.5k each i will be looking at buying a pair or two at the end of this year (1 pair at the 2+k each mark and 2 pair if i can get them for under 2k per animal)


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## Origamislice (Apr 4, 2010)

hmm are different colorations deecreasing at the same rate? i know you can get reds and blues but are these getting cheaper as fast or is it just the standard yellow GTP thats decreasing at a great rate?


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## Frustration (Apr 4, 2010)

arent the reds and blues emerald tree boas ... ? or can you get that in GTPs aswell...
ive heard about blue ones before... and ive also heard of GTPs being worth up to 60 000 ... 
im not sure if this is just a myth or a ridiculously good looking snake...


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## Origamislice (Apr 5, 2010)

Frustration said:


> arent the reds and blues emerald tree boas ... ? or can you get that in GTPs aswell...QUOTE]
> 
> im pretty sure that you can get them red as hatchlings but then they go through a color change just like yellows, not sure if hey change to the same green or maby a darker green then most...


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## Frustration (Apr 5, 2010)

wow... that would be spectacular 
if anybody has had one of those...
i would love to see some images...
and if they are any trouble to care for... i would be happy to take them off you hands for your... free of charge


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## naledge (Apr 5, 2010)

Frustration said:


> wow... that would be spectacular
> if anybody has had one of those...
> i would love to see some images...
> and if they are any trouble to care for... i would be happy to take them off you hands for your... free of charge



They hatch as red, then go yellow, then green. Well, I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.

I know people don't like using others' images, but it's not illegal so I'm going to do it anyway >.>







(David Barkasy, Silver City Serpentarium)






(newherpaddict, Kingsnake)


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## Frustration (Apr 5, 2010)

i think that red one is boa... may need some confirmation though...
does anyone else think that is a GTP... because i honestly never knew they came in red when they were juvinilles ...


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## Frustration (Apr 5, 2010)

NEVER MIND... its a GTP... 
but do we get that kind of thing in australia ?


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## naledge (Apr 5, 2010)

Frustration said:


> i think that red one is boa... may need some confirmation though...
> does anyone else think that is a GTP... because i honestly never knew they came in red when they were juvinilles ...



It's labeled as a "Green Tree Python, baby" from Biak Island.

red green tree python - Google Search


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## naledge (Apr 5, 2010)

Frustration said:


> NEVER MIND... its a GTP...
> but do we get that kind of thing in australia ?



I think I have seen them for sale in Australia. But I can't be sure.


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## Frustration (Apr 5, 2010)

AH... that makes more sense... 
it is a very stunning snake though...


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## naledge (Apr 5, 2010)

Looks like most of the Australian ones start as yellow and then turn green. The red ones are beautiful.


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## Frustration (Apr 5, 2010)

http://www.kingsnake.com/viridis/huang22.jpg

yeah... heres the emerald tree boa... quite a difference


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## Slats (Apr 5, 2010)

naledge said:


> I know people don't like using others' images, but it's not illegal so I'm going to do it anyway >.>



It is illegal if the image is copyrighted lol


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## Origamislice (Apr 5, 2010)

lol i got the red one set as my wallpaper pick. (mind you its not mine i just like the look of it)


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## naledge (Apr 5, 2010)

Slats said:


> It is illegal if the image is copyrighted lol



Not if it's being used to educate or demonstrate something, giving them credit of course xD


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## Slats (Apr 5, 2010)

naledge said:


> Not if it's being used to educate or demonstrate something, giving them credit of course xD



If it is reproduced without knowledge it is


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## naledge (Apr 5, 2010)

Fair use "allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship." 

I understand that you shouldn't just take people's work and claim it as your own, but using someone's photo to demonstrate something to people is fine.


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## Slats (Apr 5, 2010)

naledge said:


> Fair use "allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship."
> 
> I understand that you shouldn't just take people's work and claim it as your own, but using someone's photo to demonstrate something to people is fine.



Its a very vague subject but yes fair use does apply... to a place of registered education. But a forum is also classed as public domain so things can get sketchy


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## syeph8 (Apr 5, 2010)

Slats said:


> Its a very vague subject but yes fair use does apply... to a place of registered education. But a forum is also classed as public domain so things can get sketchy



it comes with appropriate referencing, and the fact that he has submitted it to the domain of the public internet, and the fact that it was used for education purposes... i think A. he/she probably would be flattered or just wouldnt care and B. would be very shaky legal standing if they took it further (just going by what they allow for referencing in high schools, workplaces and universities)


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## Origamislice (Apr 5, 2010)

honestly this is a GTP post not something to do with copyright laws. personly i would like more info on GTP's


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## syeph8 (Apr 5, 2010)

haha sorry, the prices of all pythons and snakes have dropped dramatically in the last 5 years. i put it down to more people owning snakes. people back 5 years ago heard that breeding snakes was a good way to earn a buck and so they bought snakes that were as expensive as they dared go and took it from there, woma prices were massively affected by this also. simple supply vs demmand, there's way more product out there and fewer new people wanting to buy.


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## Perkele (Apr 5, 2010)

The Green Tree Python has some interesting information on different strains. from what i've read, native australians don't start out as red. URS is clearly a business, and can therefore sell for less due to their food and infrastructure setup. their adults look quite nice, and the young is a good size. and from research on the net and books, a lot of the private stock is priced higher as they are from established and "pure" bloodlines, not from random snakes held under the amnesty.


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## Origamislice (Apr 5, 2010)

wow thats good info, never knew their where different localities of gtp. well you learn somthing new every day.


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## Perkele (Apr 5, 2010)

yeah, i've been looking at where mine came from, just waiting for some info from my breeder.


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

This must be the most ridiculous thread I have seen for a long time. People who know nothing about GTPs getting advice and comments from those who know even less. I just have to laugh.

_"wow thats good info, never knew their where different localities of gtp. well you learn somthing new every day."_
Orangesnake, if you're half smart, stop reading this nonsense because really, you aren't learning nothing here. That is, apart from wrong totally wrong information. I mean it.


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## eitak (Apr 5, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> This must be the most ridiculous thread I have seen for a long time. People who know nothing about GTPs getting advice and comments from those who know even less. I just have to laugh.
> 
> _"wow thats good info, never knew their where different localities of gtp. well you learn somthing new every day."_
> Orangesnake, if you're half smart, stop reading this nonsense because really, you aren't learning nothing here. That is, apart from wrong totally wrong information. I mean it.



WOW :shock: rude much?? and here I thought the idea of forums was for others to help educate people, not to burst in criticising everyone.

How about instead of criticising, you give the advice that was asked for? I can only imagine that you would have an encyclopedia of knowledge stored away


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## beeman (Apr 5, 2010)

eitak said:


> WOW :shock: rude much?? and here I thought the idea of forums was for others to help educate people, not to burst in criticising everyone.
> 
> How about instead of criticising, you give the advice that was asked for? I can only imagine that you would have an encyclopedia of knowledge stored away


 

No not rude but infact 100% correct, This is another case of those not knowing anything of substance of what they are offering advice on!


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## eitak (Apr 5, 2010)

beeman said:


> No not rude but infact 100% correct, This is another case of those not knowing anything of substance of what they are offering advice on!



Well if you know that the advice is wrong, why not give the correct advie?

Constructive criticism vs. criticism???


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## yommy (Apr 5, 2010)

eitak said:


> WOW :shock: rude much?? and here I thought the idea of forums was for others to help educate people, not to burst in criticising everyone.
> 
> How about instead of criticising, you give the advice that was asked for? I can only imagine that you would have an encyclopedia of knowledge stored away



I think waterrat hit the nail on the head with his statement, out of all the repliers so far i only know 2 in this thread with GTP.

I think people should used the search function for what is was intended. This type of question has be asked and answered a million times. No wonder the people that actually know about this particulary species make such comments.


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

eitak said:


> How about instead of criticising, you give the advice that was asked for? I can only imagine that you would have an encyclopedia of knowledge stored away




I have done that and keep on doing that but on forum where I get "corrected" and commented on by experts like in this thread. Go to sticky " _GTP essential info_" on this site to see how much advice I have given. I never criticize people who don't know but I have a go at those who pretend or think they know.


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## eitak (Apr 5, 2010)

yommy said:


> I think waterrat hit the nail on the head with his statement, out of all the repliers so far i only know 2 in this thread with GTP.
> 
> I think people should used the search function for what is was intended. This type of question has be asked and answered a million times. No wonder the people that actually know about this particulary species make such comments.



Like I said before, if people with all the answers know the advice is wrong why not direct to another thread or correct the advice instead of just being critical? 

Thats all im trying to say


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

eitak said:


> Like I said before, if people with all the answers know the advice is wrong why not direct to another thread or correct the advice instead of just being critical?
> 
> Thats all im trying to say




The answers have been given many times by many authors. Laziness is a terrible disease. So is inability to read.


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## JAS101 (Apr 5, 2010)

beeman said:


> No not rude but infact 100% correct, This is another case of those not knowing anything of substance of what they are offering advice on!


Yup way too often i see pepole giving advice , about an animal that they dont even own/or keep. If you dont own/ or never have owned the animal -Dont give advice on it .


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## chondrogreen (Apr 5, 2010)

> your internet knowledge becomes almost instant expert overnight on the reptile forums as soon as you own any carpet. If you are already a bit up yourself, argumentative & like to fight on the internet like a retard then buying your first snake & getting involved in the hobby is deffinately your thing.


 
This thread reminds me soo much of the above quote I read yesterday in the "ultimate reptile ad" and "low sellers" threads. J/K


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## eitak (Apr 5, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> The answers have been given many times by many authors. Laziness is a terrible disease. So is inability to read.



Fair enough, so instead telling everyone they know nothing (which im not claiming to know anything or say the info in the thread is correct) you could simply say what you said in you last post. 

" . . . . . . . Go to sticky " GTP essential info" . . . . . . . "

People could simply be giving advice they have been told which was originally wrong, they may not even realise the info they were givien is incorrect.


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## eitak (Apr 5, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> Yup way too often i see pepole giving advice , about an animal that they dont even own/or keep. If you dont own/ or never have owned the animal -Dont give advice on it .



I agree with this . . I just wanted to share an ironic story

The licensing guy in ACT doesn't own reptiles yet is able to tell people how to care for/house them. When he came to inspect my spotted python he asked is she was handled much I said yes and offered him a hold. He wasn't interested at all, in fact from his reactions I assumed he was even slightly scared. :shock:


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> Yup way too often i see pepole giving advice , about an animal that they dont even own/or keep. If you dont own the animal -Dont give advice on it .




Mate, it's (sometimes) not necessary to own the animal. Even after years of keeping, some owners still don't know much because they don't have the capacity to correctly interpret what they see and experience. Knowledge can come from different sources. I have never kept tree pit-vipers but because of my keen interest I learned a lot from lit. and talking to REAL experts. 
What I am critical of is that many, particularly young people take reptile forums for a gospel and they think they're learning a lot. For those inexperienced, it's awful hard to sort out the good information from the bull.... posted by .... ah, you know!


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## sweetangel (Apr 5, 2010)

I will agree with the "experts" on this one. When I started reading this thread I was thinking how little was know with the answers given! Now I'm not a gtp expert but I do my reasearch thoroughly before getting any animal. At current I have been reading the more complete chondro and getting some great advice there. Also countless magazine articles and looking at threads from the known gtp experts. There is alot to gtp! Infact many books dedicated that are hundreds of pages long. So all the info that you are after is slot more complicated than a simple post. If you are really interested in gtp invest in the books and literature and don't answer questions u have no idea about!


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## levis04 (Apr 5, 2010)

Frustration said:


> Hey...
> ..
> i havent really been follow the GTP market recently...
> but i just noticed URS are selling there juveniles for 1400 each...
> ...


 
Just to answer you question, there are alot of people now breeding gtps and there for they will naturally come donw in price as more are produced. There are Aussie natives and non native gtps on the market. Qualltiy snakes will always be worth more imo, but in saying this you could buy one for 1400 and still be very happy with what you get. It all comes down to the buyer and where you want to spend your money so shop around.


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

levis04 said:


> Just to answer you question, there are alot of people now breeding gtps and there for they will naturally come donw in price as more are produced. There are Aussie natives and non native gtps on the market. Qualltiy snakes will always be worth more imo, but in saying this you could buy one for 1400 and still be very happy with what you get. It all comes down to the buyer and where you want to spend your money so shop around.


.... and know the difference between quality and quality - that takes some savvy.


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## Perkele (Apr 5, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> This must be the most ridiculous thread I have seen for a long time. People who know nothing about GTPs getting advice and comments from those who know even less. I just have to laugh.
> 
> _"wow thats good info, never knew their where different localities of gtp. well you learn somthing new every day."_
> Orangesnake, if you're half smart, stop reading this nonsense because really, you aren't learning nothing here. That is, apart from wrong totally wrong information. I mean it.



i provided the link to the blog purely because it explained that there were different localities associated with the GTP, both australian (your book states 2), mainland groups and island groups (PNG/Biak/Sorong etc). Greg Maxwell's explanation describes them differently.

i never said that you could tell a locality from the way they look etc, i think the blog is incorrect there. i also stated that it was my _opinion_ that australian hatchlings were yellow, not red or brown like some others (biak etc), which agrees with your book.

there are so many threads on this forum where someone asks about the prices of GTPs dropping, and they getting abused as n00bs. "GTP-essential info" is ok (as with any book/article, there are disagreements and discrepancies), but with people today they want information now and they use the internet. a lot of it is wrong, i agree. it's the same with medical advice and news.

but the suggestion that "People who know nothing about GTPs getting advice and comments from those who know even less" is a bit harsh. i would suggest that this a slight overreaction to the general happenings on this board, and the "innocence" (more ignorance) of people simply searching for information on an animal that is both beautiful and unique. 

maybe a simple "i disagree with this information, i made a thread to help people find more correct info, maybe don't trust everything on the internet" was in order.


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

Perkele said:


> i provided the link to the blog purely because it explained that there were different localities associated with the GTP, both australian (your book states 2), mainland groups and island groups (PNG/Biak/Sorong etc). Greg Maxwell's explanation describes them differently.
> 
> i never said that you could tell a locality from the way they look etc, i think the blog is incorrect there. i also stated that it was my _opinion_ that australian hatchlings were yellow, not red or brown like some others (biak etc), which agrees with your book.
> 
> ...




My comments were general not specific to you Perkele or anyone else. I feel that some of the advice given was incorrect, given by people who OBVIOUSLY know very little or nothing about GTPs and that is the truth. 
You sound like an intelligent, polite person, would you give an advise on nuclear physics (unless you are NF) on their forum?


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## Perkele (Apr 5, 2010)

i reacted as most of the posts in this thread were very much "why is this?" "i think it might be" posts, and mine was a suggestion of information. i took offence as i once didn't know anything about GTPs, discovered how beautiful they were, wanted one, and then did the research. a lot of research. books, magazines, the internet and from owners.

my grasp of nuclear physics would possibly be better then most on this forum, but fairly lacking on a nuclear physics forum. i would still feel confident commenting on said forum if i had done the research on nuclear physics, which is in part technical physics and part theoretical.


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

Perkele said:


> my grasp of nuclear physics would possibly be better then most on this forum, but fairly lacking on a nuclear physics forum. i would still feel confident commenting on said forum if i had done the research on nuclear physics, which is in part technical physics and part theoretical.




Good on you! It would be good if others did as much research as you have done before giving advice. I repeat - my comments weren't aimed at you.


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## Perkele (Apr 5, 2010)

no worries. 

it's interesting to think about: 1st year uni students this year are too young to remember a world without widespread access to the internet. it's bred a lack of ability to research using other methods. i'm guilty of falling prey to the ease of researching that way, but i know it's not always correct and i take it with a grain of salt.

btw, got your "spectacular snakes" book for my girlfriend for her birthday and she was pumped


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

I am glad that we are on the same path. A have been reprimanded by the mods in the past for not being tolerant to young people with less experience, etc.. There are many bright young kids on this site (and elsewhere) and it's a pleasure to communicate with them and I am always happy to help if I can. However, I am afraid I suffer acute allergy to stupidity and laziness and it often reflects in my posts. Should I apologise for it?

The internet is a terrific source of information for those who are able to sort the facts from the crap. Call me old-fashioned but you can't beat published literature.

Cheers


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## Origamislice (Apr 5, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> This must be the most ridiculous thread I have seen for a long time. People who know nothing about GTPs getting advice and comments from those who know even less. I just have to laugh.
> 
> _"wow thats good info, never knew their where different localities of gtp. well you learn somthing new every day."_
> Orangesnake, if you're half smart, stop reading this nonsense because really, you aren't learning nothing here. That is, apart from wrong totally wrong information. I mean it.


 
i would like to know at what information you are aiming at. yes i know im not to experianced in GTP's and i strive to learn more about them BUT what i do know is that you can get blues and reds GTP and that is all there was to the question someone had asked. and no i didnt just look it up on the internet as i DO hapen to know that it can be full of wrong info i read it in a book, not sure of the name though.


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## Frustration (Apr 5, 2010)

I believe this thread has gone a little off topic lol... 
i understand all of your points against people being lazy and not doing thorough research...
but the original question was in regards to the price of GTPs and such a dramatic drop... 
which has now been answered, but still a drop of 5000 is hard to believe especially if you have not been following the market....
and the answer to this question is not provided by published literature or a variety of other sources... and it seemed to be a reasonable topic for discussion... 
after all the majority of us are here to further expand our knowledge... 
and even if somebody doesnt have a FULL understanding of a topic i think they should still share their opinion... hence the term "discussion"


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## Origamislice (Apr 5, 2010)

Frustration said:


> and even if somebody doesnt have a FULL understanding of a topic i think they should still share their opinion... hence the term "discussion"


 
i agree.


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## Perkele (Apr 5, 2010)

there are numerous threads on this topic, some talking about a drop from $15000 to $5000 (few years old). without dredging them up, it's a conversation/discussion that has been had.

if you ever are lucky enough to feel one of these little guys, you'll know why they will never be $300 snakes. they are delicate and beautiful, and will always have a higher value then more common and resilient snakes.

otherwise it's essentially a mixture of simple economics, supply and demand, and an increase in information about how to care for them well. there are more being bred successfully, therefore a higher supply. and URS are lucky enough to have all the equipment and storage and money to get a proper set up. they also have a few clutches going at once.


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## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2010)

Frustration said:


> but the original question was in regards to the price of GTPs and such a dramatic drop...
> 
> and the answer to this question is not provided by published literature




Point taken. 
The first page or two was all about colours, etc., very little to your question.
In the end, are you happy with the information you have received?


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## Frustration (Apr 5, 2010)

quite simply, yes... 
but even though the questions and conversation about the coloration of snakes may be slightly off topic... i believe that is a reasonable change of topic with in a thread... 
however the change to an argument regarding copyright laws and the lack of knowledge behind certain responses is a bit of a stretch, and i still fail to see the need for it...


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## chondrogreen (Apr 5, 2010)

To answer the question a heap of smuggled animals made it onto licence here.
In 2 seasons many keepers had enough of these adults to pair up and produce a heap of clutches ontop of what was already available.
Today only a few years later, everyone is a GTP owner lol. They are as common as childreni (slight exageration but not far off surely haha)

IMO if you plan to buy, only purchase from known lines such as URS and those breeding from them.
Only way to stop a black market is to stop paying those involved in it


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## Kenshin (Apr 5, 2010)

wow alot of threads do turn into an utter *****fight on here lately

yes there are people that know almost nothing on gtps - will these people buy some i highly doubt that they will before they actually know what they are doing

for these people i will agree that reading is your best friend and on this subject theres not alot of people in AUS that breed chondro's that dont have this book

Mike Swan Herp. Books - The More Complete Chondro AU $ 75.00

fantastic book on chondro

also another book i can highly recommend that covers all of AUS pythons for a measly 50 bucks is

Mike Swan Herp. Books - Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons AU $ 50.00 

the above book was the only one i could find a fantastic article on breeding imbricata's it also has a good article on gtps as well


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## stencorp69 (Apr 5, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> ... Should I apologise for it?


 
if your asking the question - as a sponsor you propably should - doesn't reflect well for the site...


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## wokka (Apr 6, 2010)

It is hard to know what to do when you read some of the BS on this site. Do you let it pass and then it becomes yet another "internet fact" which is deemed be true because it is written on the internet; or do you challenge the wrongs and then get labelled as an intolerant killjoy.
There comes a point when those who know, just give up, and then the resource of knowledge is lost. If you dont know ask a question but dont state your opinion as a fact which may mislead others!


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## zulu (Apr 6, 2010)

*re GTP*

Hi frustration,there isnt anything wrong with the 1400 GTPs at URS,the quality and colours are good as theyve been captive bred for a long time,they are just a big player in the market place and have to move stock to pay wages. For reading the perfect chondro is very good or the web site fine green tree pythons.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Apr 6, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> To answer the question a heap of smuggled animals made it onto licence here.
> In 2 seasons many keepers had enough of these adults to pair up and produce a heap of clutches ontop of what was already available.
> Today only a few years later, everyone is a GTP owner lol. They are as common as childreni (slight exageration but not far off surely haha)
> 
> ...


 
Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens more and more, the older and less smarter I get), are the Chondros kept and bred by URS not imports that made it onto the books through the amnesty? I am certainly no GTP expert but by comparing what they are selling (hatchlings born at around 8 grams), this is not consistent with the numbers I have heard are standard for legitimate Aussie GTP's (around 13-15gms). My point being, what are you calling a legitimate market versus a black market? As far as I understand, the only truly "legitimate" GTP's in Australia would be the legally collected and subsequently bred, Aussie GTP's available through Michael Cermak, Adrian Hemens, and anyone else who has successfully bred from their lines. As I said, I don't know who else has run lines of legitimate Greens from non imported stock but of course there may be more. 




wokka said:


> It is hard to know what to do when you read some of the BS on this site. Do you let it pass and then it becomes yet another "internet fact" which is deemed be true because it is written on the internet; or do you challenge the wrongs and then get labelled as an intolerant killjoy.
> There comes a point when those who know, just give up, and then the resource of knowledge is lost. If you dont know ask a question but dont state your opinion as a fact which may mislead others!


 
Too true Wokka. It seems to me, every time I meet an old school herper in person, the general concensus is that, the pointless bickering, back-stabbing, general stupidity, etc.. completely puts them off participating in forums like this. A pity for those who do not interact with the herp community in any way other than on the computer. As a 15+ year vet stated to me this past weekend, "Too many overnight experts here. They buy a snake, read a few posts, they are now ready to give professional advice. All those "experts" are just too lazy to put in the hard yards and learn from good old fashioned hands on experience."

This is not to say that forums like these are no good. As Wokka said, if you are capable of sorting the rubbish from the goods, there is a wealth of extremely useful information available here. If, however, people continue to insist on slagging the men and women who have spent years and years learning and fine tuning their parts of the herp hobby, soon there will be naught left but these useless armchair "experts" to learn from (on the internet that is). That is a worry. Not for myself, but for the animals dependant on their care.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens more and more, the older and less smarter I get), are the Chondros kept and bred by URS not imports that made it onto the books through the amnesty? I am certainly no GTP expert but by comparing what they are selling (hatchlings born at around 8 grams), this is not consistent with the numbers I have heard are standard for legitimate Aussie GTP's (around 13-15gms). My point being, what are you calling a legitimate market versus a black market? As far as I understand, the only truly "legitimate" GTP's in Australia would be the legally collected and subsequently bred, Aussie GTP's available through Michael Cermak, Adrian Hemens, and anyone else who has successfully bred from their lines. As I said, I don't know who else has run lines of legitimate Greens from non imported stock but of course there may be more. .


 
The animals Tim has were deemed legal.
Therefore by buying from him you are not paying someone to collect/smuggle/import.


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## boxhead (Apr 6, 2010)

This is not to say that forums like these are no good. As Wokka said, if you are capable of sorting the rubbish from the goods, there is a wealth of extremely useful information available here. If, however, people continue to insist on slagging the men and women who have spent years and years learning and fine tuning their parts of the herp hobby, soon there will be naught left but these useless armchair "experts" to learn from (on the internet that is). That is a worry. Not for myself, but for the animals dependant on their care.[/QUOTE] Maybe a another reason to get rid of post counts .


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## URS (Apr 6, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> The animals Tim has were deemed legal.
> Therefore by buying from him you are not paying someone to collect/smuggle/import.




This is true they are legal python as state by a QLD court, we purchase our original 6 GTP’s from a breeder in QLD many years ago and this was before the amnesty in NSW. The hundreds we have bred and sold over the years will Match the DNA that was taken by EPA in QLD many years ago.


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## Waterrat (Apr 6, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> The animals Tim has were deemed legal.
> Therefore by buying from him you are not paying someone to collect/smuggle/import.




All reptiles that are registered by the relevant fauna authorities are deemed legal whether they their origins go to the amnesty, permitted collection or they are descendants from pre- protection days (as I believe Tim's GTPs are). 
If YOU acquire a reptile legally, i.e. from a registered collection on a Movement Advice / Permit, so you can prove that the animal was legally obtained - it is deemed legal. If you acquired the animal from an illegal source, e.g. wild caught, imported, etc., and get investigated - you are the victim, not the villain and you can exercise your legal rights.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 6, 2010)

I think the price drop for chondros reflects a couple of things - a massive smuggling program in the past 2-3 years (up until then 'chondros' were 'chondros', now there are Biaks and a whole range of identified 'locale' animals reflecting their PNG/Indonesian heritage. This HAS to be a recent phenomenon...

And then the recently published works of Greg Maxwell (The Complete Chondro etc, and specialist websites, including his, associated with chondros) have made breeding a far more reliable prospect for chondro keepers. As recently as 5-6 years ago, chondro breeding in Australia was a very hit and miss affair, but now... even I can do it lol!

As far as Tim at URS goes, he's been breeding them for years, he has a large inventory of animals, and in a good season produces lots of babies. The price he sells them at does not reflect any lack of quality, it's simply a pragmatic response to the fact that he has a lot of high maintenance babies to quit, and it's best for him if they can go as soon as they're ready. If you can imagine having in excess of 100 finicky babies to get started and established in the first months of their lives, you would understand that by the time they're feeding well and ready to go, you are well and truly ready to let them go...

I don't know of any private breeders successfully selling non-native hatchling GTPs for $3-3.5K. They might advertise them for that, but they'd be dreaming.

J.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> All reptiles that are registered by the relevant fauna authorities are deemed legal whether they their origins go to the amnesty, permitted collection or they are descendants from pre- protection days (as I believe Tim's GTPs are).
> If YOU acquire a reptile legally, i.e. from a registered collection on a Movement Advice / Permit, so you can prove that the animal was legally obtained - it is deemed legal. If you acquired the animal from an illegal source, e.g. wild caught, imported, etc., and get investigated - you are the victim, not the villain and you can exercise your legal rights.


 
Not all animals on licence are so legit.
My point is buying any known smuggled exotic lines that have been written up in books by dodgey keepers is feeding the black market.
Sure they are on licence and deemed legal in that little loop hole BUT I don't think we as a so called passionate conservationalist hobby should be condoning the act of smuggling wildlife by paying for these animals and feeding those illegal characters.

IMO your a villian if you know better, and enough documentation is available for those to make themselves aware before purchase. I know I did my research before parting with money and didn't settle for any of the new cheap ones (even if some were producing mite phaze lol). We even have locale specific exotics these days as Pythoninfinite said. Only a few years ago everything was muddied, even in the US and UK haha


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## Bushfire (Apr 6, 2010)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens more and more, the older and less smarter I get), are the Chondros kept and bred by URS not imports that made it onto the books through the amnesty? I am certainly no GTP expert but by comparing what they are selling (hatchlings born at around 8 grams), this is not consistent with the numbers I have heard are standard for legitimate Aussie GTP's (around 13-15gms). My point being, what are you calling a legitimate market versus a black market? As far as I understand, the only truly "legitimate" GTP's in Australia would be the legally collected and subsequently bred, Aussie GTP's available through Michael Cermak, Adrian Hemens, and anyone else who has successfully bred from their lines. As I said, I don't know who else has run lines of legitimate Greens from non imported stock but of course there may be more.


 

The situation is far more complicated than black and white. GTPs in captivity in Australia didnt start out with native collections. Even in the 70s and 80s there was a high percentage of import GTPs legally kept. So how did they become legal? Simple, zoos imported GTPs legally and then sold or swapped excess young onto private hands. As the term locality prue was pretty rarely used, if you got any male and female you would breed them together. After all a GTP is still a GTP and given they commanded very high $$, who wouldn't. Even if you want to dismiss all the 1996-97 ammesty imported GTPs and their desendents from being legitimate, there are still plenty of desendents about from those brought or swapped legally from zoo collections. So much so, that we will never truly know what numbers were smuggled in or continue to be smuggled in, we do have legal and illegal imports. We just have to accept that if an animal comes with proper paperwork it is a legitimate animal and if not then its black market. Its the same with every other species really.


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## Waterrat (Apr 6, 2010)

condrogreen, how would you know which are being smuggled? How do you recognise a dodgey keeper? 

Do you really believe that those wanting to buy their GTP for as little as possible will put their conservationist's hats on? ..... nice thoughts but far from reality.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Apr 6, 2010)

URS said:


> This is true they are legal python as state by a QLD court, we purchase our original 6 GTP’s from a breeder in QLD many years ago and this was before the amnesty in NSW. The hundreds we have bred and sold over the years will Match the DNA that was taken by EPA in QLD many years ago.


 
Thanks for the info! As I am a prospective GTP buyer, this is the kind of information that is useful both to myself and the online herp community in general. As was discussed earlier, sorting the wheat from the chaff as far as forum posts go, it is good to have guys like Tim around, who have put in the hard yards, long before the internet was used as it is today, to make animals like this available.



Waterrat said:


> All reptiles that are registered by the relevant fauna authorities are deemed legal whether they their origins go to the amnesty, permitted collection or they are descendants from pre- protection days (as I believe Tim's GTPs are).
> If YOU acquire a reptile legally, i.e. from a registered collection on a Movement Advice / Permit, so you can prove that the animal was legally obtained - it is deemed legal. If you acquired the animal from an illegal source, e.g. wild caught, imported, etc., and get investigated - you are the victim, not the villain and you can exercise your legal rights.


 
I did, in my post, take for granted that many people purchase animals off permit. Unfortunately, one of the very first things I learned when I started out, was how easy it is for dishonest people to cook their books. It is good to know that there are still a few genuine sources for quality animals around.



Pythoninfinite said:


> I think the price drop for chondros reflects a couple of things - a massive smuggling program in the past 2-3 years (up until then 'chondros' were 'chondros', now there are Biaks and a whole range of identified 'locale' animals reflecting their PNG/Indonesian heritage. This HAS to be a recent phenomenon...
> 
> And then the recently published works of Greg Maxwell (The Complete Chondro etc, and specialist websites, including his, associated with chondros) have made breeding a far more reliable prospect for chondro keepers. As recently as 5-6 years ago, chondro breeding in Australia was a very hit and miss affair, but now... even I can do it lol!
> 
> ...


 
Thanks P.I. This goes a long way in answering the OP's question on pricing. Decades of breeding has produced a massive supply. Of course the numbers of smuggled animals will make an impact as well but at the end of the day, quality, legitimate GTPs are simply readily available.


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## Frustration (Apr 6, 2010)

hugely helpful stuff!
thanks


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> condrogreen, how would you know which are being smuggled? How do you recognise a dodgey keeper?
> 
> *Well in my case I purchased mostly from a seller who purchased from Tim directly.*
> *When researching breeders I confronted alot and tried to trace the pedigree back from breeder to breeder, and alot couldn't oblidge (why not they had 30k waved in their face)*
> ...


 
Horses for courses.
I'd prefer Tms lines and chose to choose my sellers after deep scrutineering.
Now I can only hope another confiscation session will go down because I know my animals history.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 6, 2010)

The reptile market always has the potential to go from famine to feast in a very short time - pythons especially are highly fecund animals, and the numbers increase exponentially once the breeding technicalities for a species are sorted. I think that this has happened with most species and morphs in the past few years, and it's the fickle nature of the market that dictates what is desired and what's not. Hence the move to designer animals - it caters for those who want something different, an increasing demand these days. If you don't get in on the ground floor though, you stand an almost 100% chance of doing your dough.

It would be nice if GTPS returned a bit more than they do these days, but my biggest kicks still come from the sheer beauty of them, and the thrill of being able to breed them from time-to-time. Unlike my wife, I'm not complaining lol!

J.


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## Waterrat (Apr 6, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> Now I can only hope another confiscation session will go down because I know my animals history.




That is a dangerous and provocative wish - I think you stand alone on that one brother.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> It would be nice if GTPS returned a bit more than they do these days, but my biggest kicks still come from the sheer beauty of them, and the thrill of being able to breed them from time-to-time. Unlike my wife, I'm not complaining lol!
> 
> J.


 
I preferred the rareity over the money.
Just the fact I had animals everyone else craved was enough joy for me (like trophy status lol)
These days they are as common in households as childreni are, and not far off the same price either haha!



Waterrat said:


> That is a dangerous and provocative wish - I think you stand alone on that one brother.


That would be expected also. Too many animals in collections that arn't from legal lines. 
Of course they fear it lol. More reason they should have researched harder IMO


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## Waterrat (Apr 6, 2010)

Since you are so by the book and preach what others should and shouldn't do, tell us - do you have your GTPs registered in your book and with the NWS authority as *native* or as *exotic*?
Please try to be clear on this.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Since you are so by the book and preach what others should and shouldn't do, tell us - do you have your GTPs registered in your book and with the NWS authority as *native* or as *exotic*?
> Please try to be clear on this.


 
Is there an option in our books for specifics? 
They are down as just GTP. And my collection is open to testing should it hit the fan again.

I am not preaching nada btw, just giving my opinion and some healthy advice not to suport smugglers. I am sorry if I come across as an arogant pompous for not being a fan of illegal poaching. Anyway, It is no secret my collection came from Tim Mensforths animals deemed 100% legal and DNA tested through the amnesty....How about your non native collection Michael. Out of interest can you tell us a bit about it?. Do you know their history? I am curious.


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## Waterrat (Apr 6, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> Is there an option in our books for specifics?
> They are down as just GTP. And my collection is open to testing should it hit the fan again.
> 
> I am not preaching nada btw, just giving my opinion and some healthy advice not to suport smugglers. I am sorry if I come across as an arogant pompous for not being a fan of illegal poaching. Anyway, It is no secret my collection came from Tim Mensforths animals deemed 100% legal and DNA tested through the amnesty....How about your non native collection Michael. Out of interest can you tell us a bit about it?. Do you know their history? I am curious.



Yes, if are in possession of an exotic reptile you are obliged to have that animal registered as such, no matter where it came from. In Qld, if you keep native GTPs, you must have an endorsement on your _Wildlife Licence_ that allows you to keep _Restricted Reptiles_. To keep exotic GTPs, you must have another endorsement that covers _International Reptile_ (GTP). I have both. The history of my exotic GTPs? They were bred by the Snake Farmer. I saw the female in their possession long before she was mature enough to reproduce and also have seen her mating and with the clutch of eggs. ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL.

Now, I don't dispute that URS' GTPs are perfectly legal but they are not native. It's your (the new owner's) responsibility to declare them for what they are or "as you feel fit". Have you got yours registered as native or exotic? I told you all about my side of things, now you can answer my simple question.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Yes, if are in possession of an exotic reptile you are obliged to have that animal registered as such, no matter where it came from. In Qld, if you keep native GTPs, you must have an endorsement on your _Wildlife Licence_ that allows you to keep _Restricted Reptiles_. To keep exotic GTPs, you must have another endorsement that covers _International Reptile_ (GTP). I have both. The history of my exotic GTPs? They were bred by the Snake Farmer. I saw the female in their possession long before she was mature enough to reproduce and also have seen her mating and with the clutch of eggs. ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL.
> 
> Now, I don't dispute that URS' GTPs are perfectly legal but they are not native. It's your (the new owner's) responsibility to declare them for what they are or "as you feel fit". Have you got yours registered as native or exotic? I told you all about my side of things, now you can answer my simple question.


 

As I said, I have them down as simply GTP.
There is no endorsement in NSW as far as I know.
My collection has been inspected & my books signed by a decc inspector.


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## Waterrat (Apr 6, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> As I said, I have them down as simply GTP.
> There is no endorsement in NSW as far as I know.
> My collection has been inspected & my books signed by a decc inspector.



Neat way to dodge the question.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

I answered it for you. Twice infact.
I do not have any endorsement, they are down as simply GTP, neither native nor exotic.
I do not even know of any endorsement. Now that is 3 times I have answered you.


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## Waterrat (Apr 6, 2010)

It's amazing how little you know, yet you seem to have an opinion on everything, give advice to others and love to have the last word. Well, have it! No point talking to you any more.
I see that you're getting lot of photos of natives in your new thread, I think people got the idea who you are.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

Gee thanks


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## ShadowDragon (Apr 6, 2010)

There seems to be a lot of controversy surrounding the heritage of native GTPs, and not just on the forum. I've heard of a few people now who've bought native GTPs from QLD breeders which have thrown distinctly non-native babies. Sad.


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## geckos_are_great (Apr 6, 2010)

why do you all fight about pathetic little things.
it seems of late that if some one asks a questing you all start arguing about it. 
everyone intittled to there own opinion and thats that not all of you can be right.


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## chondrogreen (Apr 6, 2010)

I was simply giving advice to buy from known legal lines such as URS.
No idea why waterrat got on the defensive, being a GTP breeder himself I thought he would be in agreeance with me. 
Maybe promoting Tims animals is driving competition for him, *shrugs* who knows. Anyway I though my advice was actually a good idea and that is if you plan to buy GTP be sure to track their pedigree as far back as you have to cover your own backside.


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