# New Ghost Carpets



## Herpetology (Jul 10, 2020)

These are my 2 6mth old new ghosts (caramel/hypo axanthic) I bought last week and hinted at a couple weeks/mths ago (idk time flies) they have settled in perfectly, so now I can take pictures while cleaning them out(Honestly they were settled in the first 24hours haha, that’s how calm and chill they are)
These were purchased from the awesome @Southernserpent who has some of the best looking ghosts I’ve seen! + he was awesome to work with

The female is a bit lighter than she appears in photos, will get a nice day time pic in next few days (got another cool snake coming hehe)

Female- interesting to note she hatched a lot lighter than the male and the male sort of lightened up and she darkened up, still looking good though! It’s also funny the strong patterning, yet the reduction of black when you actually look, almost
Like an optical illusion 





Male-


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## WizardFromAus- (Jul 10, 2020)

Hell yeah! 

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## AaronLovesPythons (Jul 10, 2020)

Awesome stuff

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## Herpetology (Aug 1, 2020)

Male after a shed






Female very close to shedding!
[doublepost=1596231835,1596184151][/doublepost]I should play the lotto




[doublepost=1596263979][/doublepost]Lovely


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 2, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Male after a shed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice man! I think I'm starting to like the ghost gene!


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## Herpetology (Aug 2, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Nice man! I think I'm starting to like the ghost gene!



Something i just noticed today was that the females "browns" are all the same shade - the black markings make an optical illusion that make it look like the browns are a varying shade (similar to that popular "which circle is bigger" - all the circles are the same but look vastly different), however if you notice in certain parts the breaks in the black, you can see theres pretty much no difference in the colours of the brown, This leads me to believe she is in fact a super caramel x axanthic and look forward to see how she will look!


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Something i just noticed today was that the females "browns" are all the same shade - the black markings make an optical illusion that make it look like the browns are a varying shade (similar to that popular "which circle is bigger" - all the circles are the same but look vastly different), however if you notice in certain parts the breaks in the black, you can see theres pretty much no difference in the colours of the brown, This leads me to believe she is in fact a super caramel x axanthic and look forward to see how she will look!


I don't know enough about morphs, however, like Brian Barczyk would say, "That is a ripper right there! Hoo doggy!"


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> I don't know enough about morphs, however, like Brian Barczyk would say, "That is a ripper right there! Hoo doggy!"


Better start getting into them!


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Better start getting into them!


Yeah, I've got a 50% het caramel albino carpet that I'm hoping to breed one day. Maybe you could tell me what the best thing to breed him with would be, and what the results would be if I did?


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Yeah, I've got a 50% het caramel albino carpet that I'm hoping to breed one day. Maybe you could tell me what the best thing to breed him with would be, and what the results would be if I did?


Breed it to a double het ax het albino and you’ll get Sunglows 50% het axanthic

Which if proves to carry the het gene, if you put it back over the Het alb Het ax you will get lots of fancy stuff! Lucky dip galore


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Breed it to a double het ax het albino and you’ll get Sunglows 50% het axanthic
> 
> Which if proves to carry the het gene, if you put it back over the Het alb Het ax you will get lots of fancy stuff! Lucky dip galore


Nice! You've got me pretty exited now! Would't it be so cool to produce a sunglow axanthic! I might check out morphmarket. Also, what would a snow look like? And are there any other things I could breed him to?


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Nice! You've got me pretty exited now! Would't it be so cool to produce a sunglow axanthic! I might check out morphmarket. Also, what would a snow look like? And are there any other things I could breed him to?


I’m pretty sure a sunglow axanthic is a moon glow

Snow is a moon glow with some lemon yellow hints


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## Sdaji (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> I’m pretty sure a sunglow axanthic is a moon glow
> 
> Snow is a moon glow with some lemon yellow hints



Snow is just an axanthic (or anery, which is more what the 'axanthic' carpets are) albino (two mutations).

Moon glow is an axanthic/anery hypo albino (triple mutation combo).

Sunglow is a hypo albino.


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Sunglow is definitely a caramel (increased yellow) albino

I’m no expert on the moon glow but my understanding is caramel albino (increased yellows) stripper right back with the axanthism, makes no sense to throw anery in there as there’s No red? Maybe if u used a red hypo McLeod coastal


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> I’m pretty sure a sunglow axanthic is a moon glow
> 
> Snow is a moon glow with some lemon yellow hints


What color is a moon glow? And what color is a sunglow too?
[doublepost=1596420489,1596420412][/doublepost]


Herptology said:


> Sunglow is definitely a caramel albino


So if my carpet is het for caramel and albino would that mean he's het for sunglow?


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> What color is a moon glow? And what color is a sunglow too?
> 
> So if my carpet is het for caramel and albino would that mean he's het for sunglow?



Moon glow is a pure white snake

I don’t think it can be het for caramel, it’s either caramel or not

But if it is possible then yes it’ll be “het sunglow”


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## Sdaji (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Sunglow is definitely a caramel (increased yellow) albino
> 
> I’m no expert on the moon glow but my understanding is caramel albino (increased yellows) stripper right back with the axanthism, makes no sense to throw anery in there as there’s No red? Maybe if u used a red hypo McLeod coastal



These terms are not specific to Carpets and have been used in other species since many years before the combos were ever made in Carpets. There are snow, moonglow, sunglow, etc Boas, Corns, etc. In terms of the terminology, anery (anerythrism) and axanthism are generally used interchangeably with these combos. In reality, the so-called axanthic Carpets aren't axanthic, and are more similar to things like anery boas, but anery isn't a term which was adopted by Australians, who tend to use morph terminology very poorly.
[doublepost=1596421208,1596421093][/doublepost]


Herptology said:


> Moon glow is a pure white snake



Not always. Plenty of moonglow snakes have visible pattern in shade of grey/cream and some have a significant amount of yellow. Moonglow is classified as the combination of three traits.


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

@Josiah Rossic here’s a lovely pic by Jarred Sharp
Moon glow over a sunglow



[doublepost=1596421304,1596421216][/doublepost]


Sdaji said:


> visible pattern in shade of grey/cream and some have a significant amount of yellow.


 not going to argue about the different shades of grey/cream and very light yellow

But Wouldnt the ones with fairly noticeable yellow be a snow then?
I guess it’s similar do you consider a bredli with a high percentage of black missing a hypo, aswell as as a bredli with a slightly reduced black level is technically a hypo?


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> @Josiah Rossic here’s a lovely pic by Jarred Sharp
> Moon glow over a sunglow
> 
> View attachment 329695
> ...


Woa! Are those carpets?


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Woa! Are those carpets?


Yep, Jarred is one of the leading breeders in Aus I believe, up there with Wayne larks from Morelia magic and Rajiv from Morelia designs


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 3, 2020)

So why can't my carpet be het for caramel? Is that gene different to the others?


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> So why can't my carpet be het for caramel? Is that gene different to the others?


@Sdaji can explain it better but I believe as long as one parent is caramel then babies can have caramel, if the babies don’t have caramel then they can’t pass it on, not sure of the terms etc Dominant, Codominant, recessive :mindblown:
[doublepost=1596422421,1596422305][/doublepost].


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> @Sdaji can explain it better but I believe as long as one parent is caramel then babies can have caramel, if the babies don’t have caramel then they can’t pass it on, not sure of the terms etc Dominant, Codominant, recessive :mindblown:


So potentially he could just be a carpet het for albino?


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

If he’s not caramel, then he will be just het for albino, there is no het caramel

Send a picture


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## Sdaji (Aug 3, 2020)

Herptology said:


> But Wouldnt the ones with fairly noticeable yellow be a snow then?



That's not how it works. You can get a regular albino with no yellow on it. Plenty of albinos which are not axanthic or anery have no yellow.

The so-called axanthic Carpets are not actually axanthic, so a snow or moonglow may or may not have yellow. The amount of yellow does correlate with what morph it is, but in this case it's not reliable enough to be a diagnostic feature.



> I guess it’s similar do you consider a bredli with a high percentage of black missing a hypo, aswell as as a bredli with a slightly reduced black level is technically a hypo?



Not really, you're comparing apples to oranges. Consider this:

Kenyans are taller than Nepalese, but you don't determine their race based on their height, and it's not a reliable diagnostic feature. Men are taller than women, but again, it's not reliable enough to be a diagnostic tool.

Kenyan and Nepalese are not examples of single gene mutations or distinct traits. They're extremes of a spectrum. Men and woman are two dichotomous traits, nothing like race, but height works just as well/badly as a diagnostic tool. You'll usually get it correct if you know a person is Kenyan or Nepalese and you know their height, you'll usually get their sex correct if you know their height, you'll get an even more distinct, reliable dichotomy if you compare Kenyan men to Nepalese women, but it still won't be perfect and it's still not how you determine what someone is. The way you classify these four things has zero to do with how tall they are.


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## Nero Egernia (Aug 3, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> The so-called axanthic Carpets are not actually axanthic, so a snow or moonglow may or may not have yellow. The amount of yellow does correlate with what morph it is, but in this case it's not reliable enough to be a diagnostic feature.



If the so-called axanthic Carpets are not actually axanthic then what are they?


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## Herpetology (Aug 3, 2020)

Here’s an suspected anery compared to PROVEN axanthic


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## Sdaji (Aug 3, 2020)

Nero Egernia said:


> If the so-called axanthic Carpets are not actually axanthic then what are they?



Assuming they actually are Mendelian (which I'm not disputing) they're either hypoxanthics or anerythristics. It's fairly common to use this incorrect terminology even in some foreign species.

There's a lot of confusion because there's a lot of polygenic variation across the board with Carpet Pythons, so a non 'axanthic' can have less yellow than a 'true/proven' axanthic (which highlights the poor use of the term axanthic, which means the resulting confusion is not surprising).

Calling these things axanthic is a bit like calling "hypos" albinos.

We'll probably never see herpers using terminology correctly, so in some respects it makes sense to learn the way the incorrect vernacular works, and just work with it. Or, the easiest way is just to believe the terminology makes sense, agree with everyone, be incorrect, but make the same mistakes everyone else does, so you're speaking their language.

With many genetics terms I just have to use the herp version of the language because if I use correct terminology no one will understand and they'll just think I'm insane. As an example, every single Carpet Python has every copy of every albino gene, and every morph gene there is, but if you say that, almost everyone will think you're insane, because a term as fundamental to genetics as 'gene' is fundamentally misunderstood. When you're starting from that platform, it's never going to go well!

So, as far as general conversation goes, 99/100 times it makes sense to just call these Carpets axanthics, because that's the name everyone is going to use for them.


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## Nero Egernia (Aug 3, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> Assuming they actually are Mendelian (which I'm not disputing) they're either hypoxanthics or anerythristics. It's fairly common to use this incorrect terminology even in some foreign species.
> 
> There's a lot of confusion because there's a lot of polygenic variation across the board with Carpet Pythons, so a non 'axanthic' can have less yellow than a 'true/proven' axanthic (which highlights the poor use of the term axanthic, which means the resulting confusion is not surprising).
> 
> ...



Is their much difference between a so-called axanthic and a hypoaxanthic? Didn't Herptology mention that there is a separate line of "anerythristic" carpet pythons? 

As far as I'm aware I thought a "hypo" was a snake with reduced black pigment, whereas an albino has a complete absence of black pigment and also has pink/red eyes?


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## adderboy (Aug 3, 2020)

Yes, and as you said, "as far as general conversation goes." Breeders with just a sketchy picture of what these traits are and how the genes are manifested in future generations will usually end up being disappointed. 

And I admit that I don't understand as much as I'd like, either, but I'm not trying to produce new or unusual morphs.


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## Sdaji (Aug 3, 2020)

Nero Egernia said:


> Is their much difference between a so-called axanthic and a hypoaxanthic?



The name.

There are true axanthics in other species.



> As far as I'm aware I thought a "hypo" was a snake with reduced black pigment, whereas an albino has a complete absence of black pigment and also has pink/red eyes?



Generally speaking that's the way herpers use the terminology, incorrect as it is.


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## Nero Egernia (Aug 4, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> The name.



If the difference between an "axanthic" and "hypoaxanthic" only lies in with the name then why bother differentiating between them at all? Why bother calling an axanthic fake if you're going to call it a hypoaxanthic anyway?



Sdaji said:


> There are true axanthics in other species.
> 
> Generally speaking that's the way herpers use the terminology, incorrect as it is.



What constitutes as a true axanthic? Or even a true albino? I thought it was universally accepted in all species that the phenotype of an albino is the absence of black pigment, and having red/pink pupils? Are you calling the axanthic carpets fake, anerythristic or hypoaxanthic? What is the correct terminology then?


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## Sdaji (Aug 4, 2020)

***Preface to post: This is a response to a question of semantics. If you're not a nerd who likes nerdy stuff, scroll on by! 



Nero Egernia said:


> If the difference between an "axanthic" and "hypoaxanthic" only lies in with the name then why bother differentiating between them at all? Why bother calling an axanthic fake if you're going to call it a hypoaxanthic anyway?



I've never called them "fake" or tried to talk them down.

First you said "so-called axanthic" vs "hypoaxanthic" (sic)
Here you are saying "axanthic" vs "hypoaxanthic"

There is a big difference between actual axanthic and so-called axanthic. That's the whole point.

I'm not suggesting you need to play the semantics game, but that's what you're doing here, so you need to get your semantics spot on. You've made two errors here. One is assuming that "axanthic" (actual axanthic) is the same as "so-called axanthic" (obviously they aren't the same thing, or we would just be calling them both axanthic; the "so-called" part refers to something with that label which does not match the label). The second error is leaving the "a" in the word "hypoaxanthic" - by convention this can not be a correct word, because you can not have a reduced condition of absolute absence. The prefix "a" means "without" and when used in this way, such as axanthic or amelanistic, means it has none of it. "Hypo" means reduced (but not completely lacking). Contrary to what herpers often think, it has no specific connected to melanin, but this informal convention is now firmly established in herpetocultural vernacular and seems unlikely to change, so it becomes confusing unless you're both at least somewhat of a linguist and also well-versed in historical herp linguo (at this point it may be worth repeating what I said earlier about the possibility of just forgetting the quest of getting everything correct and simply going along with the incorrect terminology used by herpers). To say "hypoaxanthic" would mean there is a reduction of absence of xanthin.

If you're still interested in the semantics, as a side note, the a in albino is just part of the word, not a prefix. The a in amelanistic, which is actually not a synonym of albino, is a prefix with that 'without' meaning.




> What constitutes as a true axanthic?



Generally speaking, a genetic condition resulting in the complete absence of xanthin production. More broadly, it could mean anything which lacks xanthin for any reason. Incorrectly, it is used by herpers to refer to a reduction in xanthin.



> Or even a true albino? I thought it was universally accepted in all species that the phenotype of an albino is the absence of black pigment, and having red/pink pupils?



This is quite a metaphorical Pandora's box of a question. But no, absolutely not, it is not universally or even generally accepted that albinos must have a complete lack of black pigment or have red/pink eyes. You are talking about amelanistics. Amelanistics are albino, but not all albinos are amelanistic. There's a popularly used herp morph term which refers to an exception, but I'm reluctant to bring it up because it would open another can of worms.



> Are you calling the axanthic carpets fake



No, they do exist.



> anerythristic or hypoaxanthic? What is the correct terminology then?



In general conversation I would refer to them as axanthics, because despite being incorrect, it's the terminology everyone uses. If I was having a discussion about semantics I would refer to them as above. If I was discussing the underlying genetic mechanisms at work, I would be using different terms.

To summarise the above: It's probably easier just to ignore the fact that the terminology is incorrect and just use it the way almost everyone else does. Analysing the correct way to use all these terms and understanding the whole situation is an interesting thought exercise if you're a nerd, but very few people will ever understand what you're talking about, and they'll argue with you and often get upset if you try to correct them, and you're certainly not going to get the community to change.


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## Nero Egernia (Aug 4, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> ***Preface to post: This is a response to a question of semantics. If you're not a nerd who likes nerdy stuff, scroll on by!
> 
> I've never called them "fake" or tried to talk them down.
> 
> ...



My apologies, Sdaji, it's not my intention to argue semantics for argument's sake, I am just genuinely curious and would like to know the correct terminology to use for these forms of carpet pythons. Thanks for correcting me in regards to albinos vs amelanistics. I admit that I wasn't aware of the difference between the two because most of my learning on reptile mutations has come from reptile books, and, like you said, the terminology appears to be incorrect in many cases.

I think I now understand the difference between axanthism and hypoxanthism. So you're saying that the "axanthic" lines of carpet pythons in Australia are actually hypoxanthic due to them having a reduction in yellow pigment, but not being completely devoid of yellow pigment, which would in turn be a true axanthic? Thanks for taking the time to clarify the terminology to me.


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## Sdaji (Aug 4, 2020)

Nero Egernia said:


> My apologies, Sdaji, it's not my intention to argue semantics for argument's sake, I am just genuinely curious and would like to know the correct terminology to use for these forms of carpet pythons. Thanks for correcting me in regards to albinos vs amelanistics. I admit that I wasn't aware of the difference between the two because most of my learning on reptile mutations has come from reptile books, and, like you said, the terminology appears to be incorrect in many cases.
> 
> I think I now understand the difference between axanthism and hypoxanthism. So you're saying that the "axanthic" lines of carpet pythons in Australia are actually hypoxanthic due to them having a reduction in yellow pigment, but not being completely devoid of yellow pigment, which would in turn be a true axanthic? Thanks for taking the time to clarify the terminology to me.



In a nutshell, yep. But most herpers will argue with you if you use correct terminology, some of them quite angrily so.


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 4, 2020)

Herptology said:


> If he’s not caramel, then he will be just het for albino, there is no het caramel
> 
> Send a picture


So caramel is only a visual gene. It can only be displayed? If so than I don't think that my carpet's a caramel 
Nonetheless, here's a pic.


Just another question: Can a snake only be het for one gene? As in it can only be het for albino and not het for albino and het for caramel?


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## Herpetology (Aug 4, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> So caramel is only a visual gene. It can only be displayed? If so than I don't think that my carpet's a caramel
> Nonetheless, here's a pic.
> View attachment 329700
> 
> Just another question: Can a snake only be het for one gene? As in it can only be het for albino and not het for albino and het for caramel?


1, Your snake could still be caramel, with carpets in particular, their colours will change for the first 12mths which would then be considered "adult colours" and would be similar for the rest of its life, Take albinos for example, they start a orangey pink colour and start striping around 9mths

2, You can have as many Het genes as you want on one snake,The big ones this year are Caramels Het albino het axanthic but obviously with each snake would need to be paired to an unrelated snake with an unrelated gene, and theres only so many Carpet genes


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 4, 2020)

Herptology said:


> 1, Your snake could still be caramel, with carpets in particular, their colours will change for the first 12mths which would then be considered "adult colours" and would be similar for the rest of its life, Take albinos for example, they start a orangey pink colour and start striping around 9mths


He has actally gone a lot darker since I took that pic. Would that tell me anything?


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## AaronLovesPythons (Aug 4, 2020)

Herptology said:


> 1, Your snake could still be caramel, with carpets in particular, their colours will change for the first 12mths which would then be considered "adult colours" and would be similar for the rest of its life, Take albinos for example, they start a orangey pink colour and start striping around 9mths
> 
> 2, You can have as many Het genes as you want on one snake,The big ones this year are Caramels Het albino het axanthic but obviously with each snake would need to be paired to an unrelated snake with an unrelated gene, and theres only so many Carpet genes


In saying that i have an axanthic male 66% het albino from rajiv perara to put over one of troy bromies caramels poss het hypo and an from glenn thomas a caramel zeb 100% het albino and then an albino from a mate from a pet store he couldnt take care off so keen to put some things into the mix and see where the morphs / genetics go with it and what can be produced

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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 4, 2020)

So can you have a het caramel or are caramels always visuals and never hets?


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## AaronLovesPythons (Aug 4, 2020)

AaronLovesPythons said:


> In saying that i have an axanthic male 66% het albino from rajiv perara to put over one of troy bromies caramels poss het hypo and an from glenn thomas a caramel zeb 100% het albino and then an albino from a mate from a pet store he couldnt take care off so keen to put some things into the mix and see where the morphs / genetics go with it and what can be produced
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


Then again its also confusing for me the whole hypo and carmel like can ghosts amd sunglows and moons be produced from the hypo and caramel influence?

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## Southernserpent (Aug 5, 2020)

The incomplete dominent caramel and hypo mutations are pretty much the same thing and very well could be the same mutation.
They both reduce the black pigment. But due to the variability of carpet pythons the amount that is reduced varies greatly.
The way i look at incomplete dominant mutations is that a caramel is a visual heterozygous (het) for the visual homozygous super caramel.
So pretty much a caramel is a het for super caramel. 
It pretty much comes down to its a caramel or it's not.
Another incomplete dominant mutation is zebra. Zebras(Heterozygous form) are het for super zebras (homozygous form)
That is a very simple way of saying it and I'm sure some will argue it's not right but that is how I see it.


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## AaronLovesPythons (Aug 5, 2020)

Southernserpent said:


> The incomplete dominent caramel and hypo mutations are pretty much the same thing and very well could be the same mutation.
> They both reduce the black pigment. But due to the variability of carpet pythons the amount that is reduced varies greatly.
> The way i look at incomplete dominant mutations is that a caramel is a visual heterozygous (het) for the visual homozygous super caramel.
> So pretty much a caramel is a het for super caramel.
> ...


Yeh i have heard it argued to be different things ie. Reccessive, poly, and co dom.

What i havent seem to stumbled upon is the super hypo form if being a co dom, are they out there? has nick mutton got some? Did they have some of the issues as super zebs and thats why there not in the hobby ? My mind goes on wondering haha its very interesting cant wait to learn more



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## Southernserpent (Aug 5, 2020)

Their is a few different mutations that cause a reduction of black pigment and America may have different ones to us in Aus. The important thing is knowing the mode of inheritance that your animals carry.


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 5, 2020)

Herptology said:


> 1, Your snake could still be caramel,


As in being a caramel carpet python and not het for caramel? If so, how do I confirm this?


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## Brandon 94 (Aug 5, 2020)

Same goes for visual jags are het for the leucitic the lethal super form. There is no het caramel/hypo, zebras or jags it either is what you’re looking at or it’s not.
And super moonglows will be the cleanest whites. Best way to find out is knowing it’s linage. Say you know the parents and one was a super caramel yours would be caramel/hypo. Otherwise you still have a very nice carpet. There are quite hard to determine sometimes you just gotta enjoy em for what they are. Haha love me wilds


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## Herpetology (Aug 6, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> As in being a caramel carpet python and not het for caramel? If so, how do I confirm this?


As southern serpents and Brandon have pointed out

A good way of explaining it is caramel is VISUAL het for the super caramel form (very caramelly looking snakes, pretty much no black NOT lethal) just as if you breed 2 visual jags, you will get a super jag aka leucistic which is always lethal and they die full term in the egg, sometimes a few days after hatching

Here’s a typical caramel (star pythons) and a super caramel (Nick mutton) if you breed the 2 typical caramels, you will get something like the super


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 6, 2020)

Herptology said:


> As southern serpents and Brandon have pointed out
> 
> A good way of explaining it is caramel is VISUAL het for the super caramel form (very caramelly looking snakes, pretty much no black NOT lethal) just as if you breed 2 visual jags, you will get a super jag aka leucistic which is always lethal and they die full term in the egg, sometimes a few days after hatching
> 
> Here’s a typical caramel (star pythons) and a super caramel (Nick mutton) if you breed the 2 typical caramels, you will get something like the super


OK I think I understand. So if its a typical caramel, than its het for super caramel. Does that mean a typical caramel is a morph/visual and a het?


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## Herpetology (Aug 6, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> OK I think I understand. So if its a typical caramel, than its het for super caramel. Does that mean a typical caramel is a morph/visual and a het?


Yes it is a visual and het for super caramel

Normally het would have the patterning of a wild type, but in this case of caramels it’s a visual difference of more Browns and yellows

Here’s some maths (% being results of a 6 egg clutch)
If u breed caramel to a wild type
You get:

50% caramel offspring
50% wildtype offspring

If you do caramel x caramel you will get:
25% super caramel
50% caramel
25% wildtype

If you do super caramel x caramel you will get
50% super caramel
50% caramel

Super caramel x wildtype:
100% caramel


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 6, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Yes it is a visual and het for super caramel
> 
> Normally het would have the patterning of a wild type, but in this case of caramels it’s a visual difference of more Browns and yellows
> 
> ...


What would I get if I bred a carpet thats het for albino to a carpet thats het for caramel?


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## Herpetology (Aug 6, 2020)

You cant have het for caramel! only VISUAL caramel that is "het" for Super caramel if u breed it with another caramel. If your snake isnt showing caramel colours then its nothing, No caramel, no super caramel, just wild type, Unless its het for albino or axanthic or other similar which you wouldnt know unless you know what the parents are

Putting het alb to wild type will just give u pythons that are 50% het albino meaning theyre either het alb or wild type, but you wont know unless you breed them


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## Shaggers89 (Aug 7, 2020)

the ghost gene is certainly interesting thats for sure. Im still looking into maybe working with them in future


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 11, 2020)

Herptology said:


> If your snake isnt showing caramel colours then its nothing, No caramel, no super caramel, just wild type


OK then. I doubt he's caramel. Damn, thats annoying! The add said he was. Makes me want to go back to throwing chairs...


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## Southernserpent (Aug 12, 2020)

I wouldn't get to pissed off you have no choice but to trust the breeder you purchased from. 
It's very hard to tell some times if they carry the caramel gene or not and in the end if you arnt breeding then it doesn't matter anyway. 
Looking at your picture I would say that your snake could be a caramel. But that is only my opinion it's hard to tell from a picture


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 12, 2020)

Southernserpent said:


> I wouldn't get to pissed off you have no choice but to trust the breeder you purchased from.
> It's very hard to tell some times if they carry the caramel gene or not and in the end if you arnt breeding then it doesn't matter anyway.
> Looking at your picture I would say that your snake could be a caramel. But that is only my opinion it's hard to tell from a picture


Well, hopefully some day I'll find out if he does have it. And like you said, it doesn't matter if I'm not breeding him. Guess I'll forgo the throwing chairs 
I'm actually hoping to breed pygmy pythons someday down the track. We just don't have enough of them in Brisbane. Anyway, thank you for your help Southernserpent. You to Herpetology. You guys are legends.


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## Herpetology (Aug 12, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Well, hopefully some day I'll find out if he does have it. And like you said, it doesn't matter if I'm not breeding him. Guess I'll forgo the throwing chairs
> I'm actually hoping to breed pygmy pythons someday down the track. We just don't have enough of them in Brisbane. Anyway, thank you for your help Southernserpent. You to Herpetology. You guys are legends.


I was actually going to breed pygmys this year, but decided my skills arent quite there yet to befeeding snakes pinkie legs haha, they're the only Antaresia species i really like to be honest (and Sdajis Tarbles)

ive noticed a big interest in pygmy pythons lately, so one day i too will breed them
Was very hard to decide not to pair them haha


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 13, 2020)

Herptology said:


> I was actually going to breed pygmys this year, but decided my skills arent quite there yet to befeeding snakes pinkie legs haha, they're the only Antaresia species i really like to be honest (and Sdajis Tarbles)
> 
> ive noticed a big interest in pygmy pythons lately, so one day i too will breed them
> Was very hard to decide not to pair them haha


Yeah, I was talking to a mate about them at work today. We're both big fans of pygmies. I'd love to get a pilbara locality pygmy, but I guess as uncommon as pygmies are, anything'll do.
Also, about my carpet, he shed out today and he's displaying colors alot brighter than I'v ever seen before. I'm assuming that these will be his adult colors. He looks really nice


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## Herpetology (Aug 13, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> my carpet, he shed out today and he's displaying colors alot brighter than I'v ever seen before. I'm assuming that these will be his adult colors. He looks really nice


well now we just NEED pictures


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 13, 2020)

Herptology said:


> well now we just NEED pictures


Haha, I'll try to get around to that sometime soon. No promises


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## Shaggers89 (Aug 14, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Haha, I'll try to get around to that sometime soon. No promises


second that wheres the photos buddy


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## WizardFromAus- (Aug 14, 2020)

Some photo's would be nice ay lol

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


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## Herpetology (Aug 14, 2020)

looks like theyre gonna shed again

Adult mice (30g) feeding size doing work


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## AaronLovesPythons (Aug 14, 2020)

Herptology said:


> looks like theyre gonna shed again
> 
> Adult mice (30g) feeding size doing work


Keep us updated [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Herpetology (Aug 15, 2020)

Still waiting for @Josiah Rossic to show his lil beauty
[doublepost=1597487015,1597455328][/doublepost]Male shedding at time of this msg, will post pics tomorrow  female shouldn’t be far

This is completely normal, as they went from fortnightly feeds to weekly adult mice, their growth rate has dramatically increased

If it were the Same feed and they shed twice in a month I’d be thinking something was off and have a checkover of their tubs/temps


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 17, 2020)

Yes! pic upload success!











They'll be going in the gallery, be sure to leave a like, rating and comment.


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## Herpetology (Aug 17, 2020)

Looks caramelish to me @Josiah Rossic

Here’s my male after shed


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## Shaggers89 (Aug 17, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Yes! pic upload success!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice buddy the upload finally worked lol but looks more caramel to me?


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## Pythonguy1 (Aug 17, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Looks caramelish to me @Josiah Rossic
> 
> Here’s my male after shed


Thanks man. I think if the breeder said he's caramel then he probably is. I'm really happy with him now.
The funny thing is though, I share him with my sister who really doesn't care about morphs much at all. I on the other hand am crazy about morphs. She only bought him because he's a carpet.
BTW nice carpet herptology!


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## Herpetology (Aug 21, 2020)

Freshly shed female


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## Shaggers89 (Aug 21, 2020)

Herptology said:


> Freshly shed female


nice


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