# Snake ID required



## scotty_mcg (Feb 22, 2016)

Hi all

Hoping someone can help me identify this unfortunate snake

Thanks!

Scott

PS - the last photo was from a different day, so may represent a different snake!


----------



## Snapped (Feb 22, 2016)

What area is that in? (might help people narrow down what snakes are in that region)


----------



## scotty_mcg (Feb 22, 2016)

Snapped said:


> What area is that in? (might help people narrow down what snakes are in that region)



My bad! Exmouth, Pilbara region of WA


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Feb 22, 2016)

Were they taken around Newman to Karratha in WA? Awesome shots by the way!


----------



## BrownHash (Feb 22, 2016)

Pretty cool shots, would've been fun to watch. The last one looks like a YFW, but I'll have a better look when i get home.


----------



## scotty_mcg (Feb 22, 2016)

thanks! it was definitely fun to watch. The falcon failed the first day (last photo) but was successful the following day. The close-up shot of it eating shows the scale pattern, but the head is missing...


----------



## BredliFreak (Feb 22, 2016)

Last one looks like a Whip-snake of some description, probably a Yellow Faced whip snake. The first ones I'm not sure on but perhaps another Whip snake (Yellow Faced or Black necked) or or a Western Brown.


----------



## Herpo (Feb 22, 2016)

Can't really help, but amazing shots! Love the first one!


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Feb 23, 2016)

Exmouth is close enough to the region I was suggesting. I’d say they are both Whip snake species, the first two being a Rufous Whipsnake _Demansia rufescens_ and the last being a Yellow-faced Whipsnake _Demansia psammophis cupriceps_. It is interesting to see a Little Falcon that obviously has a penchant for snakes.


----------



## scotty_mcg (Feb 23, 2016)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Exmouth is close enough to the region I was suggesting. I’d say they are both Whip snake species, the first two being a Rufous Whipsnake _Demansia rufescens_ and the last being a Yellow-faced Whipsnake _Demansia psammophis cupriceps_. It is interesting to see a Little Falcon that obviously has a penchant for snakes.



Thanks to all. Any reason why the first two photos couldn't be a king brown (mulga) or a western brown (gwardar)? 

by the way it's a Brown Falcon (Falco berigora) but yes, seems to be quite fond of snakes. Also saw it take grasshoppers.


----------



## BrownHash (Feb 23, 2016)

I would probably lean towards both snakes being Yellow-faced Whipsnakes. All of the Rufous Whipsnakes I've seen have the yellow flecks along their body and tend not to have the coppery/yellow colouring to them. The flecks could be absent from this individual because not enough of the body is shown and the colouring could be like this due to local colour variations; however I feel like its still more likely to be YFW. The scales in the second photo also has reticulation occurring on it.

I don't think it is a Mulga because of the colouring, and general shape. Mulga's tend to have a gradient on the scale from light to dark (trailing edge is darker), and the scales overlap more. The are also a stockier animal than the one in the ones in the images.

Gwarda's also have a lot less uniform colouring than what appears to be on the snakes in the photo. They're usually banded, or speckled and often have orange spots on the ventral scales.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Feb 24, 2016)

It is not a Western brown as it lacks the scattered orange blotches on the ventral surface that is diagnostic of Browns. It is not a Mulga as it does not possess cream to white ventrals, the dorsal and lateral scales are dark-margined and they lack the very typical pale base of these scales in almost all Mulgas, plus the body form, even allowing for the influence of food availability, is too light i.e. lacks sufficient robustness.

I probably should have realised the dietary preference indicated it was more likely a Brown Falcon. I will say this is one species I have experienced some measure of difficulty in ID’ing due to their variability. Any hints?


----------



## BrownHash (Feb 24, 2016)

Bluetongue1 said:


> It is not a Western brown as it lacks the scattered orange blotches on the ventral surface that is diagnostic of Browns. It is not a Mulga as it does not possess cream to white ventrals, the dorsal and lateral scales are dark-margined and they lack the very typical pale base of these scales in almost all Mulgas, plus the body form, even allowing for the influence of food availability, is too light i.e. lacks sufficient robustness.
> 
> I probably should have realised the dietary preference indicated it was more likely a Brown Falcon. I will say this is one species I have experienced some measure of difficulty in ID’ing due to their variability. Any hints?



When Identifying Brown Falcon's I work on the rule that if its brown and falcon like, its probably a brown falcon. Also, if its not brown, but still falcon like, its probably a brown falcon. But seriously, I find the pale streak that sits below the eye a good starting point. It can be really faint in some of the pale morphs though. I find Kestrels to be notably smaller and redder than Brown Falcons. Black falcons, don't always have the eye mark and they don't have as much variability with their markings.


----------



## scotty_mcg (Feb 24, 2016)

Brownhash is right. Probably 7/10 falcon-like birds in the Pilbara are going to be brown falcons. Very common up there.

Compared to Aust. Hobbys (little falcons), Brown falcons are a larger and stockier bird, and lack the dark/slate 'hood' typical of little falcons - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_hobby#/media/File:Aus_hobby_samcem_aug08.jpg . More people confuse hobbys with peregrines due to the hood.

Black falcons are bigger again, and not easily confused but with the darkest of brown falcons. Very light morph brown falcons (especially males) can be confused for kestrels, but kestrels are smaller and the females especially are more rufous generally.


----------



## ronhalling (Feb 24, 2016)

Not going to try to identify, i will leave that to those who know way more than me, i would just like to congratulate you on your Photo's, i love them especially the 3rd 1, great work.  .........................Ron


----------



## scotty_mcg (Feb 24, 2016)

back to topic - for the whip snakes, I read that rufous whip snake only grows to about 50cm? The wingspan of an adult Brown falcon is approx 1m, sometimes larger - wouldn't that make the snake in question too small for rufous? otherwise happy that the first is rufous and the last is YFW...


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Feb 24, 2016)

Wilson and Swan (2013) record it as attaining 67cm. Plus a limp body may tend to strech a little if thrown around. I don’t have any field experience with that species so I cannot be 100%, certain but it seems the most likely to fit the bill. 

I knew it wasn’t a Peregrine and yes, Black Falcons are relatively easy to distinguish. The thirds photo seemed to show a dark hood on the falcon which is why I leaned towards a Hobby, as they can sometimes exhibit a pale forehead. The pale streak above the eye though is probably a giveaway. A shame that Photo 2 doesn’t show all the head. Thanks for the help there. I continue to learn.


----------

