# free handling elapids



## micko (Feb 10, 2008)

I have heard that most elapids are easier to handle than most pythons.I am told as hatchlings they are flighty but dont often bite.I have a mate with a red belly black wich he free handles all the time and he siad he trusts his RBB more than most of his pythons.Do you agree with his thaughts?Also what elapids do you have that are handable?some pics would be great also.


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## mrmikk (Feb 10, 2008)

All I will say is don't even think of doing this unless you are an extremely experienced keeper and handler and you are 100% confident in your ability. Free handling elapids is not something a novice should try just because they have seen someone else do it without incident.


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## micko (Feb 10, 2008)

I definately would not do it myself.I am carefull not to get bitten by my pythons let alone an elapid.


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## reptile32 (Feb 10, 2008)

i free handled this little fellow but started to get a bit narky it is a wild caught 
on a contruction site and moved down in the bush out the way.


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## micko (Feb 10, 2008)

Is it a tiger


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## reptile32 (Feb 10, 2008)

dark copperhead


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## micko (Feb 10, 2008)

even better.I wouldnt try it.


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## micko (Feb 10, 2008)

doesn't look like many people have an opinion on this subject.


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## itbites (Feb 10, 2008)

*I know a bloke he's a snake catcher in the summer...he has a tiger snake and he handles it all the time and even feeds it by hand :shock: i think it's all a matter of knowing that particular snake spending alot of time with it and being an experienced handler....i'de love to think that one day (years to come) that i would have the confidence to be able to free handle elapids i dream of rbbs *


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## jessb (Feb 10, 2008)

I suppose it scomes down to the consequences... even if you are more likely to be bitten by a python - the consequences are pretty minimal - at the most, a bit of pain and some blood. 

Although you may be less likely to be bitten by an elapid, the consequences, should it occur, are a wee bit more serious!

Not a risk I would be willing to take!


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## Macee (Feb 10, 2008)

Whats the Elapids Full Name? (not Scientific)


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## salebrosus (Feb 10, 2008)

micko said:


> doesn't look like many people have an opinion on this subject.



micko, alot of people have an opinion on this, only they are not going to voice it due to the sh.itfight that usually comes from it.

Simone.


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## salebrosus (Feb 10, 2008)

Macee said:


> Whats the Elapids Full Name? (not Scientific)



?????? elapid is the name given to front fanged venomous snakes, so a Tiger Snake is an elapid and so is a copperhead etc.

Simone.


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## JasonL (Feb 10, 2008)

I know really experienced handlers who free handle daily with very little problem, but it's those very little problems that put them on life support every now and then. Worth it?? I say not, I'd rather have a long life looking at them than chance a short one holding them, but each to their own.


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## Nephrurus (Feb 10, 2008)

johnbowemonie said:


> micko, alot of people have an opinion on this, only they are not going to voice it due to the sh.itfight that usually comes from it.
> 
> Simone.



Simone is absolutely right. THis is a very divisive topic. Some hate it, some love it. 


My opinion is thus: Sure an elapid is just another snake and in general they handle like one. But one day even a python might turn around and give you a feeding bite. If it's a python, you're fine. If it's large mulga, say goodbye to your kidneys and hello to a dialysis machine. 

-H


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## cris (Feb 10, 2008)

IMO you arnt cool unless you freehandle wild browns and coastals on hot summer days after having rats pee on your hands.


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## salebrosus (Feb 10, 2008)

I hope no one takes you seriously cris, ha ha ha ha ha.

Simone.


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## arbok (Feb 10, 2008)

im cool i sware... ill go find a wild brown now!


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## Nbates (Feb 10, 2008)

There are lots of people who free handle their vens, They trust the snake and the snake obviously trusts them.
But there is no way on earth that I would free handle one, Just really not worth the risk of getting bitten in my humble opinion.

By the way I am not condeming those who do, Each to their own I say


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## mysnakesau (Feb 10, 2008)

Whether an elapid is quiet or not, the risk involved is just too great. Where I do volunteer work, we have 2 snakes - and inland taipan and a death adder - both are such quiet individuals. My supervisor says he beleives the taipan could be handleable like a python but he doesn't and has no intentions of ever trying it. Its just too high risk if you get it on a bad day, and these snakes deserve great respect for what they are capable of. To frree handle vens would be like asking for a death wish. Respect them and live long to enjoy their beauty.


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## jessb (Feb 10, 2008)

You just hear enough comments from people on this site who say of their pythons "he was just being really cool and relaxed, and a split second later, for no reason, he bit me!" As someone said earlier, it's a tiny mistake with a python, but a much bigger deal with an elapid...


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## Kersten (Feb 10, 2008)

To those who say "they trust their snakes and their snakes trust them" or similar....do you have any idea of the number of keepers who have been bitten by their own elapids who say that they trusted / knew / were at one with their snakes??


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## [email protected] (Feb 10, 2008)

*just in case*

Just in case you do decide to free handle the one that just bit you , dont panic just think how stupid you were and think your self lucky that theres people who know how to administer antivenom.:lol: Safety first. be prepared for the worse. even if it is just a red bellied black, you dont want to loose a kidney or limb, eye sight etc. you probably already know first aid but you would be suprised how many trained people loose there concentration when become under heavy stress or situation, some people go into immediate shock. 
cheers steveView attachment 42313

</IMG>


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## stencorp69 (Feb 10, 2008)

jessb said:


> I suppose it scomes down to the consequences... even if you are more likely to be bitten by a python - the consequences are pretty minimal - at the most, a bit of pain and some blood.
> 
> Although you may be less likely to be bitten by an elapid, the consequences, should it occur, are a wee bit more serious!
> 
> Not a risk I would be willing to take!


 
fair call, but I guess you could always rip the venom sacks out to even out the risk. You can still look cool with the browns on a hot summer day that way as well - might as well add this to the topic


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## scorps (Feb 10, 2008)

ive free hadnled a mates adult rbbs it was very calm


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## dodgie (Feb 10, 2008)

micko said:


> I have heard that most elapids are easier to handle than most pythons.I am told as hatchlings they are flighty but dont often bite.I have a mate with a red belly black wich he free handles all the time and he siad he trusts his RBB more than most of his pythons.Do you agree with his thaughts?Also what elapids do you have that are handable?some pics would be great also.



It's people like him that give Elapid keepers a bad name.Even the most placid Childrens Python can bite when you least expect it.

Holding a Venomous Snake that can kill you or give you health problems for life is just the same as waving a loaded shotgun around,it will go of one day.


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 10, 2008)

I hope no one does post a pic up here as it sends the wrong message to the majority of members here who dont own elapids. As Jason said, one day you will get nailed.

Of course, thats probably no different to skydiving, rockclimbing, skindiving, taking exstacy, driving at 150km/h, J walking whilst drunk, riding a motor bike without a helmet, smoking or any other dangerous passtime where half the reason you do it is to show everyone else that you can and get away with it.

If you are willing to suffer the consequences go for it. Just don't come here and promote it to the teenagers that frequent the place (and I am NOT suggesting that this thread is in any way condoning it).


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## morgs202 (Feb 10, 2008)

As with most here, its not a risk I would be willing to take. HOWEVER, I do not see why people should get upset at others doing it. If they feel confident enough, and know the risk they are taking, then theres nothing wrong with that


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Feb 10, 2008)

> I hope no one does post a pic up here as it sends the wrong message to the majority of members here who dont own elapids.
> 
> Of course, thats probably no different to skydiving, rockclimbing, skindiving, taking exstacy, driving at 150km/h, J walking whilst drunk, riding a motor bike without a helmet, smoking or any other dangerous passtime where half the reason you do it is to show everyone else that you can and get away with it.
> 
> If you are willing to suffer the consequences go for it. Just don't come here and promote it to the teenagers that frequent the place (and I am NOT suggesting that this thread is in any way condoning it


 
Couldnt have said it better.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Feb 10, 2008)

wow theres been no one loggin on and spewing hate towards people that have free handled
elapids on this thread


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## -Peter (Feb 10, 2008)

jesus christ, do what you want, who cares, go ask your mum if its ok first though.


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## Miss_Croft (Feb 10, 2008)

Many of the older snake handlers only know one way to handle them – I believe it is what you call free handling. I have watched them bend down and pick up Tigers, Browns and many other types. 

Red Bellied Backs are one of the more placid snakes. I have seen one guy who while driving somewhere with his girlfriend (Who is terrified of snakes) spotted a red bellied back on the side of the road. He stopped picked it up and placed it on the floor (Between girlfriend’s feet – she left him soon after) and drove home with it. He released it in his shed to reduce the mice population or something. 

What I am trying to say is you really have to aggravate a red bellied back if you want to get bitten.

Copper head is a little more likely to bite. I have heard of one guy showing the snake for a documentary and it bit him on the thumb nail (Venom flowed down both sides of his thumb). 

Eastern Brown shake can be a little more excitable – I have seen them striking at me when I was well over 20 meters from him. That was a nasty snake – but easy to catch and was released about 100 meters – relocated from the back door.

If you know what you are looking for – it is easy to free handle nearly all the Aussie snakes. If you lift an Eastern Brown, Tiger or Red Bellied Back off the ground from around the tail – it will not be able to strike at you. If you do the same with a python – you will get bitten. That is why they say it is easier to get bitten by a python.


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## Jozz (Feb 10, 2008)

Free handling is referring to people handling elapids as you would a python. I think you are referring to what we would call 'tailing' which most people who have, or handle elapids do.


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## Kersten (Feb 10, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> If you know what you are looking for – it is easy to free handle nearly all the Aussie snakes. If you lift an Eastern Brown, Tiger or Red Bellied Back off the ground from around the tail – it will not be able to strike at you.


Don't try this at home kids.


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## arbok (Feb 10, 2008)

has anyone heard of "the bear man" he apparantly had a special connection with the bears...

has anyone heard the audio of him getting mauled to death by a bear.....


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## Jozz (Feb 10, 2008)

I did see that arbok. Doesn't matter how strongly you feel you have a connection with an animal, at the end of the day ALL animals are unpredictable.


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## arbok (Feb 10, 2008)

exactly jozz, and it may be that some are calm etc but the reality of it is we dont have a way to communicate with them so they cant say hey mate dont do that.... instead they just give u a little nip.... but with a ven that can obviously be fatal, 

btw a question for thoughs elapid keepers, in order to keep something like a rbbs, would u need to have 2 years experience with a midly venomous snake?


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## Jozz (Feb 10, 2008)

Do you mean to get the license, or just for the experience?


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## arbok (Feb 10, 2008)

to get the licences, but in saying that i reckon it would be an idea to get experience with a midly venomous


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## Just_Joshin (Feb 10, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> If you know what you are looking for – it is easy to free handle nearly all the Aussie snakes. If you lift an Eastern Brown, Tiger or Red Bellied Back off the ground from around the tail – it will not be able to strike at you. If you do the same with a python – you will get bitten. That is why they say it is easier to get bitten by a python.


Guess you've never seen an eastern brown wind back up it's own body towards your hand then!!! I think you would be surprised how fast they can come up their own body if your not careful.

Also not all pythons can easily come up their own body and tag you if you have them by the tail. Woma's for instance don't have prehensile tails and tailing one, you will notice they have great difficult doing much more then bunching up a little. BHP's are the same to an extent. Childreni, stimsoni and maculosa to a lesser extent. Most of the Morelia Genus, however, can very easily come up their own body with only a few inches of tail in contact.


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## Jozz (Feb 10, 2008)

I don't know about NSW, but in SA, you have to have done a course in Ven handling, have a senior first aid certificate that included snake bite treatment, have signatures from two referees who have a ven license, and experience in keeping pythons, and then you can get a RBB. You have to have a RBB for 12 months before you can keep tigers or browns, and have to have kept one of them for 12 months before you can keep taipans.


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## arbok (Feb 10, 2008)

ah i see thanks for the info jozz


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## cris (Feb 11, 2008)




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## cris (Feb 11, 2008)

The other thing to remember is that you need to be a really tough man with decades of knowledge, a deep personal connection with the snake and of course big balls, freehandling elapids is not something a little girl can do :lol:

http://http://www.smuggled.com/Fetus2s.jpg


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## Bushfire (Feb 11, 2008)

It matters not how much experience you have with vens sooner or later a bite will occur. Ive found newer keepers to be generally safer than older ones. They tend to be more cautious and more alert and then as they get experienced they become more relaxed and drop their guard. I see free handling as the final stage of dropping of their guard. As everyone said keeping vens is very risky and those that take that risk take their families with them. In the end know the risk and be prepared to live with it.


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## Vincent (Feb 11, 2008)

Nbates said:


> There are lots of people who free handle their vens, They trust the snake and the snake obviously trusts them.


 
A mate of mine is a specialist Elapid keeper.
He has been keeping and handling dangerous snakes for over 20 years. Yes he freehandles, and yes, he's been in intensive care a few times. A few people on here know him, JasonL's a good friend of his. He says you cant trust ANY snake, no matter how quite it seems.


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## mysnakesau (Feb 11, 2008)

That's exactly right Vincent. No one can EVER say that a snake won't bite. Can you imagine an elapid grabbing hold of you in a feed response? Try getting that off in a hurry.


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## Vincent (Mar 22, 2008)

mysnakesau said:


> Can you imagine an elapid grabbing hold of you in a feed response? Try getting that off in a hurry.


 
That would be funny in a sick kind of way.
Thats exactly what happened to a mate of mine. At least he can laugh about it.


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## salebrosus (Mar 22, 2008)

Vincent said:


> A mate of mine is a specialist Elapid keeper.
> He has been keeping and handling dangerous snakes for over 20 years. Yes he freehandles, and yes, he's been in intensive care a few times. A few people on here know him, JasonL's a good friend of his. He says you cant trust ANY snake, no matter how quite it seems.



Yes, i know this person too, a brilliant guy. Hopefully some of his animals will be on display at the expo in May just like they were last year.


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## python blue (Mar 22, 2008)

i wouldnt even try to free handle elapids at the recent sofar expo in newcastle there was a man there doing a show on reptiles he was free handling a reb bellied black snake its head went onto his hand it stayed there for a couple of minutes before it opened its mouth and tryed to bite him from where ryan harvery and i were we thought it tagged him and the snake looked so calm and placid


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## cracksinthepitch (Mar 22, 2008)

A bit of a side Question guys, Would it be safer to house an elapid in a cage with a removable lid rather than a sliding door at the front? I thought this might be safer to hook the snake from above than at the same level. Cheers


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## stusnake (Mar 22, 2008)

I guess what we have to remember is that ALL animals can/will bite. As many have already stated even the quietest and most amendable of pythons can have its day, as can vens. Ive worked with many different ven species from red bellies, right through to Taipans. Many can be very "text book" in there behavior, but there are some that no matter how long youve worked with that particular snake will on occasion surprise you. There have been quite a few vens which could easily be free handled, but I will simply not do it. For me I dont see a need for it, no ones going to give me a medal for it, and dispite being in control of myself, reasonable control of the snake in question, no one can ever be in control of events around them which may suddenly change a snakes behavior and response ie- loud noise, gust of wind, smell, other movement around snake or handler, etc. 

I know its a bit of a rant and ramble. I guess, all Im trying to say is that no amount of experience, confidence, etc can allow us to predict/control what happens ahead of us. Im sure if we could then we would never have to worry about snakes bite.


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## Aslan (Mar 22, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> If you know what you are looking for – it is easy to free handle nearly all the Aussie snakes. If you lift an Eastern Brown, Tiger or Red Bellied Back off the ground from around the tail – it will not be able to strike at you. If you do the same with a python – you will get bitten. That is why they say it is easier to get bitten by a python.


 
Tell that to Neville Burns, a great snake man, who is now missing a finger as a result of a RBB held by the tail...

It is EXTREMELY easy for an elapid to turn back on it's body and strike your hand. John Cann will tell you that as a snake handler, if an elapid wants to bite you it will bite you - the snake is always better than the handler in that regard...

I have seen elapids free handled a few times - I certainly don't understand taking the risk myself. As JasonL has stated, the risk is very hard to justify. One mistake and your life is ruined.

The guy I know who freehandles has given some of the most informative talks on elapids I have heard - in saying that though, they would have been just as informative had he been standing in a pit with a hook giving them...


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## dazza101 (Mar 22, 2008)

*elapidaes*

I used to free handle all my snakes wether it be a taipan or a brown. The most calmest would have to be western taipans, never had a problem with them.
I had a large red adder once, that I free handled all the time (when necessary). I had it out showing some friends and when I knelt down to put it back in his enclosure (it was down the bottom of the bank) it struct me and got a good hold of the side of my knee. 
Put me through hell for the next couple of days but I live to tell the story. Want more info let me know.


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## eipper (Mar 22, 2008)

HI all,

CAn't come back on you...my a*se if you grab them by the tail.....I have kept, worked with and caught many elapids and I can tell you with no doubt that Pseudonaja, Notechis, Austrelaps and Pseudechis can come back and nail you.....Ask just how many people get a tiger attached to their wrist just from what you are saying......I had a 5 ft Eastern Brown when I was 13 swing past my ear and hit the roof of the snake room. Tailing snakes is not a risk free procedure and anyone working with elapids extensively will tell you that.

As for free handling..I have done it on more times than I care to remember(and will continue to) but their are plenty of different ways of freehandling too. The risks along with it are dependant on many factors including the snakes temperament, snake species, snake size, keeper experience, methods employed etc etc.

I must admit I wonder how people whom don't work with elapids are able to make an informed decision about the viability of elapid handling techniques.

Cheers,
Scott Eipper


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## Tatelina (Mar 22, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> Many of the older snake handlers only know one way to handle them – I believe it is what you call free handling. I have watched them bend down and pick up Tigers, Browns and many other types.
> 
> Red Bellied Backs are one of the more placid snakes. I have seen one guy who while driving somewhere with his girlfriend (Who is terrified of snakes) spotted a red bellied back on the side of the road. He stopped picked it up and placed it on the floor (Between girlfriend’s feet – she left him soon after) and drove home with it. He released it in his shed to reduce the mice population or something.
> 
> ...



And can I ask Miss New York....just how many times you have handled these different types of animals before?


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## jase75 (Mar 22, 2008)

Free handling Elapids is like playing Russian Roulette, you mite get away with it once, you mite get away with it 10 times, but if its sum thing u do on a regular basis, no matter how "quite and placid" the snake mite seem to be, eventually u will get bitten.I just hope u live to learn the lesson. Iv free handled Eastern Browns, Tigers and RBBs and never had a problem but i know each time i do it wat a risk i am taking.


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## TrueBlue (Mar 22, 2008)

Miss Croft, i dont know where you got the info that by tailing an elapid it cant stike at you,??????, cause its a complete load of rubbish. They can strike at you from there, or crawl up their body to grab you no worries, and in very little time.

Ive been silly enough to free handle elapids in my younger days, both taipans, copperheads, tigers, collets, spotted blacks, adders, muglas, rbb, etc. I even raised an eastern brown snake that you could do absolutely anything with, a member of this site ended up with it and used to do the same, ah Brian. lol.
Even had a couple of free handlable roughies. And yes i trusted alot of them more than most pythons.
Ive had tigers and copperheads from the same clutches that id bred and raised, where some you could do anything with yet others you could hardly walk past their tank with out them having a go. 
The trick is to know your animals well enough, but in saying that as i said it was in my young silly days, i donot do it any more, as sooner or later something is bound to happen, law of averages.


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## AustHerps (Mar 22, 2008)

micko said:


> I have heard that most elapids are easier to handle than most pythons.I am told as hatchlings they are flighty but dont often bite.I have a mate with a red belly black wich he free handles all the time and he siad he trusts his RBB more than most of his pythons.Do you agree with his thaughts?Also what elapids do you have that are handable?some pics would be great also.



Despite this thread being quite old I guess a reply to the original post isn't out of order...

Pythons and elapids are very different animals, and it's more than venom glands that separate the two. They move differently, hold differently, ride hooks differently, respond to tailing differently, climb differently, possess different muscular structures, and, to hazard a guess - I'd say they think differently too.

To completely 'trust' a snake is somewhat foolish. But to 'know' a snake, I think, is possible. Each individual is exactly just that - Individual. It's not hard to see they have good days and bad days - Some days they'll be active, others they'll barely move, some days they'll leap on their prey as if they'd not had a meal in 3 months, and then other times they'll nonchalantly mosey over to their prey and proceed without any real effort. To 'trust' that a snake is having one of it's 'good' days is foolish, but to observe and make a judgement call is not. One might know his best friend like the back of his hand - but he can never truly know what mood they'll be in when he sees them. Just like the 'opposites' previously mentioned - On one day, a snake may hang from it's holders hand without a care in the world, and on the next, it might decide that the owner poses a threat (and come flying up at his face like there's no tomorrow. To 'Miss_Croft' - either you're having us on, or you're an idiot.)

As Scott mentioned, there are many factors and variables to take into account when assessing the risks of freehandling. I have a few critters which I would generally class as 'handleable' - but that doesn't mean I reach into their enclosures and rip them out at a million miles an hour without first making a few educated predictions as to what responses are to follow. I also have a few vens that I generally class as somewhat 'unstable' - but they too have their better days and, what can I say - I'm a hands-on kind of keeper.


Cheers,
Aaron.


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## thals (Mar 22, 2008)

Yep you can never be too sure with any animal, or person lol

Some very experienced keepers may be fine with free handling their elapids such as rbbs and tigers, but I know i still wouldn't risk it personally hehe

Species I ESPECIALLY wouldn't tempt fate with would include taipans and browns!! No way mate :lol:


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## salebrosus (Mar 22, 2008)

AustHerps said:


> Despite this thread being quite old I guess a reply to the original post isn't out of order...
> 
> Pythons and elapids are very different animals, and it's more than venom glands that separate the two. They move differently, hold differently, ride hooks differently, respond to tailing differently, climb differently, possess different muscular structures, and, to hazard a guess - I'd say they think differently too.
> 
> ...



Miss_Croft is in New York and as you know, the myths about snakes here are crap and that crap probably gets poured out to other herpers overseas.

The amount of times people tell me, "hold it by the tail it can't come back on you" i just nod and get yeah ok. I told John Cann i had doen the relocation course with WIRES for venomous snakes etc. John Cann told me never to tail the animal, if i can do it without having to touch the animal then do it that way. He then got me to promise him never to handle browns which i have never done. Watching him at past shows, i can only admire the guy. 

I would love to free-handle elapids but just dont have the nerve/experience/knowledge to attempt it. Knowing my luck i would come a gutser.

Aaron, i couldnt agree with you more.


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## Chimera (Mar 22, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> Miss Croft, i dont know where you got the info that by tailing an elapid it cant stike at you,??????, cause its a complete load of rubbish. They can strike at you from there, or crawl up their body to grab you no worries, and in very little time.
> 
> Ive been silly enough to free handle elapids in my younger days, both taipans, copperheads, tigers, collets, spotted blacks, adders, muglas, rbb, etc. I even raised an eastern brown snake that you could do absolutely anything with, a member of this site ended up with it and used to do the same, ah Brian. lol.
> Even had a couple of free handlable roughies. And yes i trusted alot of them more than most pythons.
> ...



Obviously she hasn't heard some of the snake catching stories where a brown has gone over the shoulder of the snakeman catching it


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## Australis (Mar 22, 2008)

Greebo said:


> Last time I checked, New York was not in Victoria.
> 
> "220-253-46-90.VIC.netspace.net.au."



LOL!
Kinda near Mexico though....


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## Pandora (Mar 22, 2008)

Even the most experienced handler has and will be bitten.

For goodness sakes, use your commonsense. Failing that, make sure you are at least close to a hospital or know where one is that carries the required antivenine. Always have the necessary medical kit with you at all times when in such a situation that warrants coming in such close contact with an elapid.

Above all Be careful. These epalids or pythons for that matter are not toys. They should always be treated with respect, no matter how well you think you know the animal or how much experience you think you have.


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## notechistiger (Mar 22, 2008)

One of my friends owns _stacks_ of venomous snakes, but the only ones he ever free handles are his broad-headeds, pale-headeds and a red belly that he's had for eleven years that was one of his first venomous snakes.

I know that some people overseas don't understand that Australia has fast moving, slow striking snakes (compared to America's slow moving, fast striking snakes, eg. a rattlesnake), not to say that a strike is _slow_, but a rattlesnake certainly has something on a red belly. ANYWAY, I understand that this is what some people believe, but to think that a snake can't come back on itself and get you, if it really wants to, is ludicrous. If a snake wants you, it's got you.


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## eipper (Mar 23, 2008)

Notechis,

There are plenty of fast striking Australian elapids.....Just how many upset Taipans or adders have you played with.

I have very limited exp with Crotalids, however the difference in their stirke speed between them and certainly some of Australian species is barely different. And to state that we have slow striking species as a broad comparsion to North American species is a dangerous assumption to make.

Cheers,
Scott


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## redbellybite (Mar 23, 2008)

well depends on the venomous snake ................toxicity level wether i would free handle or not ...........as far as they dont get as snappy as pythons mmmmmmmmmmm I beg to differ.....RBB


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## Tatelina (Mar 23, 2008)

Pandora said:


> They should always be treated with respect, no matter how well you think you know the animal or how much experience you think you have.


Quoted for emphasis.


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## snakes4me2 (Mar 24, 2008)

Bushfire said:


> Ive found newer keepers to be generally safer than older ones. They tend to be more cautious and more alert and then as they get experienced they become more relaxed and drop their guard.


 
I also agree with this, It not only applies to handling snakes but it applies to nearly everything you do when injury could occur.

If fitted tyres for a couple of years and that was the first thing i was told, and heard a few stories which made sure i didnt lose my gaurd.


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## [email protected] (Mar 24, 2008)

I dont know any one that owns elapids that hasn't free handled one before. 

cheers steve.


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## Szepp (Mar 25, 2008)

As Steve Irwin said when handling a black mamba in Africa while sweating bullets :- this is a top predator on a par with a lion or great white in its niche. 

So free handling a dangerous elapid is like free handling a tiger or great white shark, you can study their behavior and know them personally to reduce the risk but if they take a funny turn you are potentially dead or debilitated. If you survive a bite, i imagine you will loose your pets and license, however you can read the newspaper after the coma and see "local man rushed to hospital after pet devil snake attack" hehe


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## redbellybite (Mar 25, 2008)

CROFT 20 METERS AWAY AND IT SAW YOU ....................................LMFAO omg any young novis people on here dont take notice please you will be bitten all snakes can and will bite if they choose too...... venomous come in ranges of a slight headache felt by humans to death ..............geez no bloody wonder you get heros like G I GEORGE the snake man if that is what people are telling others you can swim with great whites dont mean that you will get eaten then and there but the possibillities are great ..swim with crocs too same thing handling venomous snakes is alot of skill and COMMONSENSE but even the best get bit or even worse killed ,RBB may be a more placid snake but they will bite you and you wont be having a picnic the bite from what i have been told is a very knock you on your **** bite..and to comment about the browns like your handling a gts is just plain crazy .........DONT HANDLE VENONMOUS SNAKES UNLESS YOU HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE and know alot about the snake your handling at the time, especially if its a snake thats bite can put you in a morgue....................RBB


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## dpeica (Mar 25, 2008)

We have girlfriends and mothers to worry about free handling already. Don't need internet experts added to the list.

If it doesn't affect you keep quiet.


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## Miss_Croft (Mar 25, 2008)

RBB – I agree 100% with you – NEVER handle a venomous snake unless you have had experience. What the original question was about hearing venomous snakes are easier to handle than most pythons. 

Handling venomous snakes (Under 6 feet) is different than handling pythons – venomous snakes (if handled correctly) will not be able to strike you if handled correctly – where as a python will turn and bite – unless you hold their head.

For those of you who comment on New York – I grew up in Country Victoria. Saw and caught many snakes. The Easter Common Brown that was striking at about 20 meters (Very aggressive snake) was caught by hand (No tongs, not hooks – just bare hands) and released about 100 yards away (Away from the houses) by a registered snake catcher (Owner of the house where the snake was found). Just for the record he had never head of snake hooks or snake tongs. He would just bend down and pick up the snake, place it in a bag. 

If you are not experienced – if you see a snake you should turn and walk the other way – a snake will never chase you and do not have a vendetta against you (shakes with vendetta’s are from story books).


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## Jonno from ERD (Mar 25, 2008)

Miss_Croft,

I was planning on staying out of this thread as it is fairly pointless, but the advice you are giving is downright dangerous and I would like to see it editted out. 

Any venomous snake in Australia is more than capable of coming back over itself very quickly. Your comment that they aren't highlights your inexperience with venomous snakes and I recommend very strongly that you keep your opinions to yourself, as they could very well contribute to someone getting bitten, especially young impressionable herpers. About 18 months ago a 17 year old herper in Queensland received a life-threatening bite from a Rough Scaled Snake because he _thought_ he knew how to handle them...


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## Tatelina (Mar 25, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Miss_Croft,
> 
> I was planning on staying out of this thread as it is fairly pointless, but the advice you are giving is downright dangerous and I would like to see it editted out.
> 
> Any venomous snake in Australia is more than capable of coming back over itself very quickly. Your comment that they aren't highlights your inexperience with venomous snakes and I recommend very strongly that you keep your opinions to yourself, as they could very well contribute to someone getting bitten, especially young impressionable herpers. About 18 months ago a 17 year old herper in Queensland received a life-threatening bite from a Rough Scaled Snake because he _thought_ he knew how to handle them...



Your response is much nicer compared to mine....so I'll just quote you.

Edit: I will add though: I'm confused as to why Miss_Croft says she grew up in Victoria, is now located in New York, and IP address now is in Victoria..? But doesn't really matter.


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## stusnake (Mar 25, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Miss_Croft,
> 
> I was planning on staying out of this thread as it is fairly pointless, but the advice you are giving is downright dangerous and I would like to see it editted out.
> 
> Any venomous snake in Australia is more than capable of coming back over itself very quickly. Your comment that they aren't highlights your inexperience with venomous snakes and I recommend very strongly that you keep your opinions to yourself, as they could very well contribute to someone getting bitten, especially young impressionable herpers. About 18 months ago a 17 year old herper in Queensland received a life-threatening bite from a Rough Scaled Snake because he _thought_ he knew how to handle them...



Couldnt agree more, I know everyone has an opinion, but some people especially youngsters using this site will take the info they see seriously, We need to make sure that we are not leading people up the the wrong path. Venomous snakes diserve the up most respect, and experience is an absolute must. The old saying " you must learn to walk before you can run" really says it all. Snake handling as my profession I have had many keen young keepers starting out wanting to dive straight into handling browns and taipans, and get a chip on their shoulder when I hold them back. Confidence is great, but I firmly believe experience is far more important - too much confidence and too litttle experience will lead to a bite in my books.


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## TrueBlue (Mar 25, 2008)

Miss Croft,- once again youve out done yourself with a whole lot of rubbish, didnt think it was possible but you have.!!!!.
Our vens are far more capable of of turning around and biting you than any of our pythons when being handled.
You really must stop talking about things that you obviously know absolutely nothing about.


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## Miss B (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that if you are accessing the website from New York, your IP address will not show up as Victoria, Australia


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## stusnake (Mar 25, 2008)

This is from an article from the Daily Telegraph yesterday, A very real insite into the dangers of not only free handling but handling in general:

DOCTORS are working to save the life of a man bitten twice by his pet brown snake.

The 48-year-old man from Heddon Greta in the Hunter Valley was bitten on the right hand and forearm this afternoon by one of the world's deadliest reptiles which he kept as a pet.

He is in a critical condition in the John Hunter Hospital after being rushed there by the Westpac Rescue helicopter.

The man was taken into surgery, where he was given antivenom in a desperate bid to stop the spread of the snakes' poison throughout his body.

A helicopter paramedic who travelled with the critically-ill man from his home to the hospital said the snake bit the man "fair and square".

"He's been bitten twice by the eastern brown snake on the right hand and on his forearm," the paramedic said.

It is believed the adult brown snake, the second deadliest snake in the world and which can grow up to 2m in length, was kept in a glass tank at the man's rural property.

Sometime shortly before 3pm, the man was attending to the snake, when it reared up and bit him twice.

A snake expert from the Australian Reptile Park on the Central Coast said Eastern brown snakes are responsible for most deaths caused by snake bites.

In January last year, a 16-year-old boy died from being bitten on the hand by the same type of snake as he wandered through bushland at Whalan in Sydney's west.

The teenager stumbled out of the bush to get help, and collapsed unconscious in the middle of a cricket pitch, where he suffered a heart attack.

Despite being given antivenom, the boy died in hospital the next day.

The same type of snake is believed to have killed nine-year-old Milena Swilks from Rocky River near Armidale in March last year.

The little girl was picking corn in the family's vegetable patch when she was bitten on the foot.

She collapsed and was taken to hospital unconscious, where she died two hours later.


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## notechistiger (Mar 25, 2008)

Maybe Miss_Croft was referring to restraining a snake (where it would be much more difficult to bite) rather than freehandling.


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## urodacus_au (Mar 25, 2008)

> a snake will never chase you and do not have a vendetta against you (shakes with vendetta’s are from story books).



Most fo what you have said so far should be kept off the forums and restricted to story books. You obviously have no experience with Elapids, best to quit now while only half the forum thinks your a nut. Your handing out potentially dangerous information to young and old here, stick with what you know.

Jordan


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## redbellybite (Mar 25, 2008)

croft like evryone is saying you dont know crap from clay and you need to keep your so called knowledge away from here..........the emphasis placed on the common brown (eastern)snake as being easy to handle he just picked it up and put it in the bag WELL YEAH but at what risk??????? the eastern brown is a highly venomous snake and on toxicity alone is higher then a coastal taipan (the yield from a taipan is on average60 times that of eb)but what composes of the rating of venoms consists of toxicity and yield ,strike times, fang length etc .....the taipans are on the top of the list because when its all rolled into one they are the most deadliest,(the inland taipan is the most deadliest, terrestial snake known because of its spreading factor in the venom),I can tell you anyone that works with snakes would rather handle a python anyday and risk a bite as nasty as they can be to being bitten by a ven.....your comments were just plain silly and bahhhhhh.........RBB ..and its also known that snakes have poor eyesight at distance so 20 m away it wouldve not seen you .........and can not hear human voices either and another myth buster snakes only have 1 lung...


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## Sdaji (Mar 25, 2008)

:lol: Just settle it with a pistol duel and get it over with!


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## arbok (Mar 25, 2008)

miss croft, are u doing any snake handling courses? i'd love to see ya demonstrating your techniques


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## Hetty (Mar 26, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> The Easter Common Brown that was striking at about 20 meters (Very aggressive snake) was caught by hand (No tongs, not hooks – just bare hands) and released about 100 yards away (Away from the houses) by a registered snake catcher (Owner of the house where the snake was found). Just for the record he had never head of snake hooks or snake tongs. He would just bend down and pick up the snake, place it in a bag.



So the Easter Brown isn't as cute and cuddly as the Easter bunny?


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## Szepp (Mar 26, 2008)

Miss Croft is correct in a sense that elapids are generally much easier to handle than vipers. As vipers are generally more robust and faster striking and strike from funny angles. 

Redbellybite, by the way some snakes have very good eye sight. all snakes have stereoscopic smell. Snakes bodies act as a giant ear as they can detect vibrations though the ground. Many vipers have heat sensor pits that can detect minuscule temperature differences. Although most snakes have poor vision most can still detect movement quite well. So basically i am saying they are not just blind dumb animals. They have an array of sophisticated sensory apparatus, essp pit vipers.

At the end of the day free handling elapids is a massive rush, and can in fact be a religious experience to some people as it affects their awareness, sharpening it to an unimaginable level. Someone said the closer you are to death the more alive you feel. HOWEVER i recommend budgie jumping or parachuting or knitting underpants for a rush, playing with dangerous elapids is like playing Russian roulette, and you will become a cropper soon enough.


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## Australis (Mar 26, 2008)

Szepp said:


> Miss Croft is correct in a sense that elapids are generally much easier to handle than vipers. As vipers are generally more robust and faster striking and strike from funny angles. .



The comparison she had drawn in her post was between elapid snakes and pythons.
If your going to make a comparison between the build of elapid snakes and vipers the
genus *Acanthophis* shouldnt be forgotten.


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## Miss_Croft (Mar 26, 2008)

RBB – I think what you are arguing about is the risk of picking up a venomous snake in Australia. The risk is there and I would not recommend anyone without correct training (Been able to handle your pet python is NOT training for handling venomous snakes). I am not arguing that it is SAFE to touch – interfere – or get close to a venomous snaks. What I have said is you have less change of been bitten (If handled correctly) – free or otherwise – handling a venomous snake. 

Risk: It is very risky going near – picking up – or interfering with a venomous snake. The risk with a python in much lower as if it bites you (been bitten by a python does not mean you will end up dead or in hospital) I agree 100% with you – I too would rather handle a python any day. 

Snakes have poor eyesight – I think they have better eyesight than what you are suggesting. What is snakes biggest predator? (Other than humans) – I think kookaburras? - If a snake is to avoid kookaburras – then it requires good distance eyesight. I mentioned the eastern common brown – as I had never seen a snake start to strike (S-bend) at that distance before.

Snakes cannot hear human voices – Snakes have good directional hearing – just they do not have ears like humans. The current school of thought is they use their jaws for stereo hearing. 

See: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/03/04/2179359.htm

The person who I referred to in the last post has been catching snakes for most of his life – he is now in his 60s – has never been bitten – he does not know what a snake hook, snake tongs are. 

I think a good conclusion form this thread is:
Handling elapidsis different to handling python – having the skills to handle a python does not mean you have the skills to handle an elapid.
Been able to free handle a python does not mean you have the skills to free handle an elapid
Interfering with an elapids is dangerous and should never be attempted unless you have the correct training – been bitten may result in death (Even antivenin may kill you.)
It is much safer handling pythons – their bite does not kill you
Handling elapids is NOT a mucho thing
I still stick to my statement it is easier to handle elapids than pythons, but it is safer to handle a python - elapid bite can kill you


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## natrix (Mar 26, 2008)

So you reached those conclusions from this thread ms Croft , Brilliant ---right up there with
Noam Chomsky , Buckminster Fuller & Leonardo Da Vinci . Even Angelina would glean more than that , & that's saying something.


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## redbellybite (Mar 26, 2008)

So What Your Say Ing Is That Authors Aka Herpetologists In The Likes Of Peter Mirtschin And Richard Davis Dont Know What They Are Talking About When They Quote That Snakes Have Poor Eyesight.i Wasnt Talking About Vibrations Croft You Said The Eastern Brown Saw You 20 Meters Away I Say You Are Full Of It And So Would Any Herp That Knows... They Can Not Hear Human Voices You Can Scream On Top Note They Wont Hear You ..i Know They Pick Up On Vibration And Movement I Did Not Say They Didnt. Read It Again ,your Saying That You Have Less Chance Of Being Bitten By A Venomous When Handling It Then A Python Is Crazy ....as Quoted By Peter "focusing Only Appears To Be Possible At A Short Range And May Not Even Be Sharp Compared With Human Eyesight,,",what The Snake Would Pick Up On If A Kookaburra Was To Attack ,is The Vibration And The Smell--- Snakes Have An Acute Sense Of Smell!!! You Are Getting Eyesight And Smell Confused Croft!! I Am In Contact With Alot Of Venomous Snakes My Main One Is The Eastern Brown And The Man Who Trained Me Is Well Known To Queensland Parks And Wildlife And He Knows His Stuff About Snakes Otherwise I Wouldnt Have Gotten My Damage Mitagation License I Dont Claim To Know Everything About Snakes There Are Herps On Here That Know Alot More Then I Do And I Like Comming On Here And Talking To Them But Idiots Like You Frustrate Me Because You Saying What You Do ,we Have Young Kids That Read This Stuff And You Are Telling Them This Crap I Only Hope That The Kids On Here Ask More Questions About Snake Handling Before They Go Out Looking In The Bush Again ....in Your Case Croft I Am Sure Your Rubber Elapids Are Less Dangerous Then Your Pythons ............but Reality Is The Live Aussie Versions Are And Always Will Be More Dangerous To Handle.........rbb


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