# How to kill a rat?



## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

OK this is a continuation of my last thread Sugestions Please
and i'm gonna change the subject yet again...
OK
Whats the most humaine way to kill a rat/mouse?
I was thinking a whack over the head but if you didn't hit hard enough... and if you miss... so is a quick hit to the head the most humaine way to kill a rat/mouse?

thanks in advance,
Cheers,
Will​


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## Tirilia (Apr 27, 2008)

Well.. It depends.. is it a wild one youre trying to kill to get it out of your house? or a live feeder?

Because if its a wild one, a rat trap doesnt work  we've got a rat, and it just licked the jam off the bloody snare!


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

neither it's just in case I start breeding them if I get a snake


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## andyscott (Apr 27, 2008)

Ok Will,
The best way if your breeding them is co2, do a wiki search on gasing rodents.
Try to do a little research on It.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

yeh I would sell them just don't now how to kill them


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## junglepython2 (Apr 27, 2008)

I love your work Will.

A quick blow to the head is fine, if you can't bring yourself to do it, go for the Co2 chamber.


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## Hickson (Apr 27, 2008)

If you're selling, best to CO2 them. If it's a mouse, you could try cervical dislocation but you would need to do that individually. If you CO2 them you can do a large number all at once, quite quickly.



Hix


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

do I put bicarbonate soda and vinigare and put a lid on with air holes?
or do I just put a lid on withy no air holes?

and junglepython2 how long have you been on this website?
and i'm flattered that your a fan of me!

cheers,
Will


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## mrmikk (Apr 27, 2008)

Just like Andy said, rent a gas cylinder from BOC, fill it with CO2 and use that to kill your rodents, it is by far the most humane method and yes it does warrant spending a few $$$$s but that's the cost of doing it properly.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

I don't hyave that money... I don't have it becaus i'm only 11/12yrs old..
can I do it how I asked up above?


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## mrmikk (Apr 27, 2008)

Yes you can, see Hix's post above on cervical dislocation. But as I said, I belive the most humane way is CO2 gassing. I know you are only 11 and $$$s are very tight for you.

One more thing and don't take it the wrong way, I know you are keen but be a little patient waiting for replies to your questions. Just a tip.

All the best Will.


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## slim6y (Apr 27, 2008)

You can buy a kg of dry ice for like $8 from BOC gas. 

Dry ice is not only useful for killing your rodents but you can also have fun (nearly beyond your wildest dreams).

CO2 is heavier than air so it sinks. 

Remember that when designing your death chambers.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

last year on my orientation day 1 of the schols science tEACHERS SHOWED US SOMETHING REALLY COOL WITH DRY ICE
so I cn make a really tall container and put say 5 teaspoons of bicarbonate soda in and about 2 teaspoons of vinigare and mix it together and let ther die unconcios?
there unconciious because they have been hit on the head(might kill them but don't want to take ny chances)
cheers guys,
Will


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## slim6y (Apr 27, 2008)

Ok... here's a bit of tricky chemistry for you willia...

If you react sodium carbonate (Na2HCO3) with vinegar (CH3COOH) you get sodium ethanoate (CH3COONa) and water and the precious CO2.

But how much do you get?

Well, we simply have to find the limiting reagent to work out how much CO2 you will get from the reaction.

Step One... Balance the equation

NaHCO3 + CH3COOH --> CH3COONa + H2O + CO2

That says for every mole of sodium carbonate you need one mole of vinegar to make one mole of CO2.

Step Two...

How many moles do you have and how much will you get?
NaHCO3 = 84.007 g/mol
CH3COOH = 60.05 g/mol
CO2 = 44.0095 g/mol

Now if you have a teaspoon, we'll just call that five grams...

5 x 5g of NaHCO3 = 25g
We therefore have 0.3 moles of NaHCO3

2 x 5g of CH3COOH = 10g
We therefore have 0.17 moles of CH3COOH

The problem is you need the same amount (in moles) of vinegar as you do sodium bicarbonate to react it fully! So vinegar is your limiting reagent in this case.

Step 3 - How much CO2 will you get....

There's a tricky mathematical equation...

But because it's a one to one ration then the limiting reagent also equals the amount of product formed.

So only 0.17 moles of CO2 is formed.

Now when one mole of CO2 is formed you could fill 22.4L - that should be your target!!!

In fact, go slightly higher....

So in order to get one mole (22.4L of CO2) you need to have at least (and I stress at least)

100g of sodium carbonate
around 60 - 80mL of vinegar

And that will give you upwards of 22.4L of gas....

Now I don't know much about the killing... but I can help with the chemistry (I think)... 

If someone suggests that 22.4L of gas is too much... then just adjust accordingly!

Unfortunately your teaspoon method would only yield 3L max of CO2 - and that's if the reaction goes to fruition and all the gas is captured! Basically - enough for a small ice cream container if you were lucky


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## slim6y (Apr 27, 2008)

100g of sodium carbonate
around 60 - 80mL of vinegar

That will make around 20L of gas

And it won't be till year 11 you learn this stuff


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## ryanharvey1993 (Apr 27, 2008)

great job william hope you get that rat if thats what your trying to do


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## Jen (Apr 27, 2008)

Go to golo, buy a 10ltr bucket with a lid. go home. get an empty margarine container and punch some holes in the lids of both containers. put the rats/mice into the big bucket. put 100g of bicarb into the marge container. put 70/80ml of vinegar into the marge container, quickly put the lid on and put it in the bucket. put the lid on the bucket and walk away for ten minutes. come back, wash off the dead rodents, and freeze them.


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## SyKeD (Apr 27, 2008)

what about getting a rat trap... put its head just in the rage of it to snap its neck.. and there you go.. one dead rat. quick and effective.. its going to take sooooo long to do slimey's idea if you dont know what ur doing . 

what take an hour when it can be done in seconds 

EDIT - Forgot to add. its not the most humane way.. but very effective.


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## Nikki. (Apr 27, 2008)

Slim ,i got step 1 and 2 .But i gotlost at step 3  

Aslan - i like the way you think


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

can I just let them suffocate in a plastic box that doesn't have any holes in it?


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## Jen (Apr 27, 2008)

i got lost and i'm doing chemistry at TAFE! lol, i think i need to study! tho i passed this in my exams...
wiilia, hope you have an extra freezer, cause if your mum is iffy about even letting you have rats, no way will she let you put their tiny corpses in with the steak!

NO, you cannot just let them suffocate, you wanted a humane way, letting them suffocate - a long and painful event- is incredibly cruel. Co2 inhalation is still suffocation, but is very fast.


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## slim6y (Apr 27, 2008)

Nikki_Elmo said:


> Slim ,i got step 1 and 2 .But i gotlost at step 3
> 
> Aslan - i like the way you think



I didn't really do step three Nikki... because it's a one to one thing... 

you normally find the limiting reagent then multiply it by the stoichiometric quantity of the product you want (that's the number in the front of it when you balance the equation) then divide that by the stoichiometric number of the limiting reagent...

in this case it was 0.17 x 1/1 so it = 0.17

When you come to do these types of reactions Nikki I am sure I can help out  but by then, by the sounds of things, you won't need the help!


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

I know what I have to do in Slim6y's idea
but does it really kill them quick enough?

and can I knock them out then gas them?
and if I do knock them out how hard do I need to hit them?


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

so there very easy to kill?


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

so I just huck the rats/mice in a container and freeze the container?
and can I put some ice cubes in on the outside of the container?


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## Jen (Apr 27, 2008)

freezing then live is just as cruel as letting them suffocate


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## sweetangel (Apr 27, 2008)

willia6 said:


> slim6y I'm realy confused... and did you used to be a science lecturer at a uni or somerthng?
> and i'll know what you mean in like year 10... and thanks for the answer to my question slim6y
> 
> and would you say 70ml's of vinigar is good?



try yr 11 or 12 or possible even uni


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

No I want to be a vet later in life and I havn't killed any yet... haven't even got any yet
this is for if I get a snake and start breeding my own

would it be as cruel if I knocked them out first then froze them?
or knock them out and then gas them?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Apr 27, 2008)

Jen said:


> freezing then live is just as cruel as letting them suffocate


 
By that rationale, so is feeding the poor little buggers to the snakes! I assure you,freezing them is more humane than letting them slowly suffocate but not as humane as gassing them or a short sharp shock to the head. 



SNAKEBOY33 said:


> Your Not Killing Them For Fun Are You??????


 
That is a far more relevant point than the issue of cruelty. This is serious stuff you are asking about will, you ask, and ask, and ask, but at the end of the day mate, you are a bit young to be attempting all this by youself. How do your parents feel about your interests? Reptiles require alot of specific care and can be expensive and difficult to keep. It's great to have an interest but I would be running all this past your parents before you get too far ahead of yourself in here. You may find that they won't let you breed rats or keep herps and render the entirety of this discussion moot.


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## Jen (Apr 27, 2008)

akira said:


> By that rationale, so is feeding the poor little buggers to the snakes! I assure you,freezing them is more humane than letting them slowly suffocate but not as humane as gassing them or a short sharp shock to the head.
> 
> 
> ?umm, no, once they are dead there is no cruelty involved. freezing them live means a slow death by suffocation, with the added fun of freezing conditions. it is not humane in any way, the only humane ways are the ones which are fast


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## Forensick (Apr 27, 2008)

actually, the CO2 gassing is possibly the most painful way to kill them...

any of the neck breaking methods are definately the most "humane"

we gas because it LOOKS cleaner/more peaceful then other methods, not because it is


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## Forensick (Apr 27, 2008)

read this
http://www.research.utas.edu.au/ani..._use_for_euthanasia_of_laboratory_animals.pdf



> The evidence of distress and aversive responses associated with the use of
> carbon dioxide as an anaesthetic agent or as a sole agent for the euthanasia of
> laboratory animals is considered conclusive by a number of independent review
> bodies and recent scientific studies. Leach et al (2004) specifically conclude
> ...


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## arbok (Apr 27, 2008)

willia6 said:


> I know what I have to do in Slim6y's idea
> but does it really kill them quick enough?
> 
> and can I knock them out then gas them?
> and if I do knock them out how hard do I need to hit them?



if your going to knock them out u may aswell just break there necks... its instant kill just a flick of the wrist...


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## Forensick (Apr 27, 2008)

because frozen mice from a stores/breeder are gassed...
i wont buy unethically killed meat for myself, or my pets...

especially when feeding a live mouse to my pythons would be less painful for them than gassing them...
i try to get them from people who brain/dislocate for me (granted dislocating is only really viable up to 150g)

CO2 gassing is the MOST stressful and painful death


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## Allies_snakes (Apr 27, 2008)

Co2, (dry ice) in a bucket with a lid, make suspension to separate the ice from the rats/mice/quail, or vice versa (i put the ice and water at the bottom, then the prey goes in the top on a suspension cloth (hammock), the 'smoke/fumes' goes up and cuts the oxygen.. (pour water on the ice first, put the prey in an close the lid and this is the most humane quickest way to kill anything. 

N.B put some metal or tin in the bucket if its plastic or you will burn a hole in the bottom or use a metal bucket with a tight fitting lid.


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## Forensick (Apr 27, 2008)

Allies_snakes said:


> Co2, (dry ice) in a bucket with a lid, make suspension to separate the ice from the rats/mice/quail, or vice versa (i put the ice and water at the bottom, then the prey goes in the top on a suspension cloth (hammock), the 'smoke/fumes' goes up and cuts the oxygen.. (pour water on the ice first, put the prey in an close the lid and this is the most humane quickest way to kill anything.
> 
> N.B put some metal or tin in the bucket if its plastic or you will burn a hole in the bottom or use a metal bucket with a tight fitting lid.



er, least humane... and not all that quick either...

do people ever research things, or just do it because "we always have"


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## junglepython2 (Apr 27, 2008)

Will whatever you do don't freeze them. If you only have a few to kill, find a local breeder and get them to actually show you how to kill them quickly, it's not that hard. If you are breeding a lot then look into the Co2 method.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

Yeh I don't think there are any people in my area that breed mice. would my local pet shop no a human way to kill it with keeping it in 1 peice?


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 27, 2008)

how do you break there necks?


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## Jen (Apr 27, 2008)

Probably not.


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## CodeRed (Apr 27, 2008)

slim6y said:


> 100g of sodium carbonate
> around 60 - 80mL of vinegar
> 
> That will make around 20L of gas
> ...


 
Slim6y, your quite a bit off in those calculations. Normal household vinegar is only 4% acetic acid (legal minimum to call it vinegar). So you'll need a lot more than 80 mls 

My normal mix is 1 litre of vinegar to 35 grams (normally two tablespoons) to make 10 litres of CO2 gas. Thats enough to fill my 5 litre death chamber and keep it full until the rats die.


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## pythonmum (Apr 27, 2008)

Most pet shops would be horrified by the question of humane killing. If you are good at cervical dislocation, it is humane and quick, but not practical to do dozens at a time. CO2 is easiest for lots, so people use it when they have large numbers to kill. 

If you put a pencil across the back of the neck and use this for a short, quick thrust, it may help you overcome difficulties with small hands or limited strength. Try the move a couple of times on a dead rodent before moving to live ones. Needless to say, it's not a very practical technique for tiny pinkies. If there is a research hospital or university near you, you could try contacting their animal house. Folks there will know a variety of techniques. Whether they are willing to teach you is another matter...


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## Jen (Apr 27, 2008)

there is also the 'freak out' actor in cervical dislocation, the gasping and movement after 'death', not knocking it, doing it made me quite upset thats all


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## ryanharvey1993 (Apr 27, 2008)

if u wanna have an easy way, get a hard object and hit the mouses head on it, will kill it instantly and is much easier or you can get a oen shaped object and put on back of neck and pull the mouse, that will also do the trick by brakng its neck. there are many simple ways to do it


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## cement (Apr 27, 2008)

Hmmmm, suffocation. Isn't that the pythons method anyway!


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## pythonmum (Apr 27, 2008)

Jen said:


> there is also the 'freak out' actor in cervical dislocation, the gasping and movement after 'death', not knocking it, doing it made me quite upset thats all


Rodents have a bit of a tremor, but nothing compared to chickens! I had to euthanise chickens for some research and tried both CO2 and cervical dislocation (technique is different than described above because chickens are so large). Didn't matter which way, they still flap around after death. Definitely traumatic for the person doing the killing.


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## slim6y (Apr 27, 2008)

CodeRed said:


> Slim6y, your quite a bit off in those calculations. Normal household vinegar is only 4% acetic acid (legal minimum to call it vinegar). So you'll need a lot more than 80 mls
> 
> My normal mix is 1 litre of vinegar to 35 grams (normally two tablespoons) to make 10 litres of CO2 gas. Thats enough to fill my 5 litre death chamber and keep it full until the rats die.



Yes.. good point... I most certainly didn't take into account the fact that vinegar is heavily diluted.

Thanks for the re-calcs


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## Forensick (Apr 27, 2008)

slim6y said:


> Yes.. good point... I most certainly didn't take into account the fact that vinegar is heavily diluted.
> 
> Thanks for the re-calcs



you can always just reduce down the vinegar till the % acetic is higher, saves excess liquid.


the more humane suffocation methods involve argon gas mixes..
looking at replacing science euth methods (currently CO2) because it is now accepted fact that it is a VERY painful death


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## nomes (Apr 28, 2008)

i got told by a vet when i needed to kill my cuzens rat to use dry ice or drop its temp quit quikly it will shut down its organs it will hardly feel a thing my aunty used her frezzer cause she couldnt get dry ice it worked just as well just stick them in a container and stik them in the freezer or place them in dry ice ether way they work the same but the ideal way is to use Co2 have fun with that


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## Forensick (Apr 28, 2008)

again, CO2 is the worst!
it is horribly painful....

do the tiniest bit of research, even a google search! and you will find out just how painful it is


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## Miss B (Apr 28, 2008)

Freezing rodents is _not_ a humane way to kill them.


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## Forensick (Apr 28, 2008)

its barely worse than CO2.... 
one is immensely painful, so is the other....
so if you do one, why not the other really


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## alex_c (Apr 28, 2008)

i use an argon/c02 mixture sold as migshield.


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## Hickson (Apr 28, 2008)

Miss B said:


> Freezing rodents is _not_ a humane way to kill them.





Forensick said:


> its barely worse than CO2....
> one is immensely painful, so is the other....
> so if you do one, why not the other really



CO2 kills quite quickly - in seconds. Freezing live animals can take several minutes for death to occur - ice crystals form in the blood, the skin on the palms of the paws stick to the ice or the freezer floor and can get pulled off, freezer burn etc.

In my book, freezing is MUCH more painful than CO2.



Hix


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## Lewy (Apr 28, 2008)

Forensick said:


> its barely worse than CO2....
> one is immensely painful, so is the other....
> so if you do one, why not the other really


 

Mate go throw your self in a freezer and c how that feels it is a VERY long and painful death


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## slim6y (Apr 28, 2008)

Lewy said:


> Mate go throw your self in a freezer and c how that feels it is a VERY long and painful death



But he'd have nothing to compare it to... what he needs is to throw himself in the freezer then into a bucket of CO2 so he has a comparrisson otherwise what you said there really makes no sense at all.

Apart from the fact I don't think he was suggesting freezing as an option - he was merely saying that CO2 is equally or more painful than freezing based on google research


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## Forensick (Apr 28, 2008)

Lewy said:


> Mate go throw your self in a freezer and c how that feels it is a VERY long and painful death



how about you hold your breathe to feel just the tiniest part of the CO2 concentration in your blood increase.




slim6y said:


> But he'd have nothing to compare it to... what he needs is to throw himself in the freezer then into a bucket of CO2 so he has a comparrisson otherwise what you said there really makes no sense at all.
> 
> Apart from the fact I don't think he was suggesting freezing as an option - he was merely saying that CO2 is equally or more painful than freezing based on google research



actually... not google rresearch  (merely stating its that easy to find)
it more through dealings with ethics commitees, and being friends with people researching it.


and hix... i know freezing is longer... but i'd take the longer, lesser pain to freezing, than the CO2 death.
not that, that is an issue, i don't believe either method should be legal... hopefully soon it will be... (when argon testing/research is finished)


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## Dan19 (Apr 28, 2008)

Where would you get argon from?


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## NotoriouS (Apr 28, 2008)

willia6 said:


> No I want to be a vet later in life and I havn't killed any yet... haven't even got any yet
> this is for if I get a snake and start breeding my own


 
Hey Will,

If it's just for a pet snake, might just be easier to buy them from your local pet store. I saw frozen rats at Big W the other day in the pet's section! Obviously it's different if you plan on selling the rats... but your post above suggests otherwise.. Good Luck anyway!


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## Forensick (Apr 28, 2008)

alex_c said:


> i use an argon/c02 mixture sold as migshield.



message him i guess


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## Hickson (Apr 28, 2008)

Not that I want to be drawn into an argument about it, but in 1986 1700 people died from CO2 suffocation - most of them were asleep at the time and just never woke up. The reports said most people showed absolutley no signs of trauma, and those that were awake just felt very very tired and groggy.



Hix


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## jessb (Apr 28, 2008)

willia6 said:


> No I want to be a vet later in life and I havn't killed any yet... haven't even got any yet
> this is for if I get a snake and start breeding my own
> 
> would it be as cruel if I knocked them out first then froze them?
> or knock them out and then gas them?


 
You are really bored aren't you? I don't want to sound too much like a mum here, but why don't you go outside and play????


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## Forensick (Apr 28, 2008)

Hix said:


> Not that I want to be drawn into an argument about it, but in 1986 1700 people died from CO2 suffocation - most of them were asleep at the time and just never woke up. The reports said most people showed absolutley no signs of trauma, and those that were awake just felt very very tired and groggy.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix



not trying to create one.... just trying to further the ethical treatment of animals.

that is one of the "problems" of CO2 suffocation, and why it is so commonly accepted.
it has the superficial appearance of being "peaceful".

remember the urge to breathe is caused by an increase in CO2 in the blood, not a decrease in O2.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 28, 2008)

jessb said:


> You are really bored aren't you? I don't want to sound too much like a mum here, but why don't you go outside and play????


 
nah just want an easy simple way to kill them humanly without breaking there necks


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## beeman (Apr 28, 2008)

You dont own any yet so why dont you wait untill you actually have some
to kill


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## smith84 (Apr 28, 2008)

forgive me for being blunt but does it really matter, they are rats, a source of food at the lower end of the food chain. when a snake kills and eats a rat in the wild is it humane? do we say that it is cruel and the snake should find a more humane way to devour its prey.


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## redbellybite (Apr 28, 2008)

Will grab by the base of the tail have a hard surface like a table or benchtop and give one good hard wack onto the surface the rat/mouse will wiggle a bit but this is due to nerves the animal itself is cactus this procedure works well if your doing it on a one on one with your pet snake if you plan on down the track to breed for the public as well as yourself then you may need to consider the gas chamber set up as you can do alot more at once ....but wacking isnt cruel if done well , the snakes can take it while its still moving and this way its at no risk of biting your pet . what people have to realise your not killing them for kicks your doing it for a feed reason this is the difference.


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## gman78 (Apr 28, 2008)

smith84 said:


> forgive me for being blunt but does it really matter, they are rats, a source of food at the lower end of the food chain. when a snake kills and eats a rat in the wild is it humane? do we say that it is cruel and the snake should find a more humane way to devour its prey.




When i die i hope i don't come back as one of your rats...


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## Shadowmist (Apr 28, 2008)

Respitory distress is usually from excess CO2. Instead of increasing the CO2, try removint he O2 (which is what keeps them alive). Instead of flooding the chamber with CO2, flood it with Nitrogen (N2). The oxygen is purged from the rat, and they go unconcious. The distress caused by CO2 would never happen. Additionally Nitrogen is relatively inert and should also be available from commercial suppliers. You should note that any gas methods should be done is a well ventilated area, as leaks or mishaps may also affect the operator.


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## slim6y (Apr 28, 2008)

Shadowmist said:


> Respitory distress is usually from excess CO2. Instead of increasing the CO2, try removint he O2 (which is what keeps them alive). Instead of flooding the chamber with CO2, flood it with Nitrogen (N2). The oxygen is purged from the rat, and they go unconcious. The distress caused by CO2 would never happen. Additionally Nitrogen is relatively inert and should also be available from commercial suppliers. You should note that any gas methods should be done is a well ventilated area, as leaks or mishaps may also affect the operator.



If you transport liquid nitrogen incorrectly, you could cause severe damage to yourself and others.

Be very wary of anything that is below -150'C  

Simple advice really...


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## Forensick (Apr 29, 2008)

someone further up said they could buy argon gas... which from what i have read is the best


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## Snow1369 (Apr 29, 2008)

cruel or not either way they're going to die  I've killed plenty all diferent ways too...


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## Vixen (Apr 29, 2008)

Snow1369 said:


> cruel or not either way they're going to die  I've killed plenty all diferent ways too...


 
Very mature and thoughtful of you


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## fuegan13 (Apr 29, 2008)

dont mind me im just testing my sig.

carry on.


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## Vixen (Apr 29, 2008)

fuegan13 said:


> dont mind me im just testing my sig.
> 
> carry on.


 
Lol random.


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