# Eastern brown snake



## vicherps (Jul 7, 2012)

Found this juvenile brown snake around Bundoora. When first encountered it was making very little movements due to its cold body temperature when found (was in aestivation). However it soon warmed up from the heat of the sun and started to become more active and started bluff striking, gaping its mouth, whipping around to defend itself from what it perceived me as a potential predator and rightfully so. When that didn't work it tried to escape. Eventually it just sat their and reared up but hardly moved probably due to the fact that most its energy levels had been spent up (they are not durable) which could bring on latic acid and because causing little movement will not cause the potential predator to go after it, it was very wary and if i was to get to close or get it to uncomfortable in anyway it would probably have tried to bite me. However next to other specimens of this species it did have a relatively placid temperament some individuals I have encountered can be very defensive and rather confronting if cornered, some who misunderstand snakes both inside and outside the herpetological community would call aggressive which is not true.


I will also add a photo of a Tiger Snake i found in late May

cheers, Micah


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## Mr.James (Jul 7, 2012)

Great photos!


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## Leasdraco (Jul 7, 2012)

Both very nice looking snakes!


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## reptalica (Jul 8, 2012)

In Bundoora huh??? Hmmmm I'm just around the corner from there. Can u be any more location specific or pm me???? Thanks.


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## Icarus (Jul 8, 2012)

great photos! gorgeous snakes


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## vicherps (Jul 8, 2012)

reptalica said:


> In Bundoora huh??? Hmmmm I'm just around the corner from there. Can u be any more location specific or pm me???? Thanks.



reptalica I'm afraid I can't give you a location I don't give spots away sorry man.


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## Channaz (Jul 8, 2012)

Nice work for this time of year, Micah! How did you find the Eastern Brown? Were you actively searching for snakes, or did you just chance upon it?


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## vicherps (Jul 8, 2012)

Hannaz said:


> Nice work for this time of year, Micah! How did you find the Eastern Brown? Were you actively searching for snakes, or did you just chance upon it?


Hannaz I found it under a basalt among some remnant native grasslands.


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## Channaz (Jul 8, 2012)

A great find, Micah. I hadn't given a thought to herping around Melbourne at this time of year, but now you have me wondering.


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## vicherps (Jul 8, 2012)

Initially I was looking for Little Whip Snakes which you can find in aggregations under rocks, timber, tin etc but found this instead. Whilst they are aestivating at this time of the year in if you do get a warm winter day they will come out. Some snakes snakes such as White-lipped Snakes, Copperheads and to a lesser extent tiger snakes are extremely cold tolerant and can remain active at quit low temperatures (they are however more active in spring, summer and autumn of course).


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## Channaz (Jul 8, 2012)

Cool, thanks Micah. I'll have to have a look on the next sunny day we get. Not too many in the next week though, by the sound of things.


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## vicherps (Jul 8, 2012)

doesn't have to necessarily be a sunny day could be overcast as well try to look under things if it's a warm day try active searching if not stick with looking under things.


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## Channaz (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok, thanks. I'll take your advice and see what I can find!


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## saratoga (Jul 10, 2012)

Nice finds this time of year.


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## fantapants (Jul 15, 2012)

[QUOTE=

However next to other specimens of this species it did have a relatively placid temperament





no such thing as a placid EB, unless its dead of course lol .... awesome elapid


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## Firepac (Jul 15, 2012)

snakeface said:


> However next to other specimens of this species it did have a relatively placid temperament
> no such thing as a placid EB said:
> 
> 
> > I completely disagree, I deal mainly with wild EB's here in NQ, and the vast majority while initially defensive will settle down quite quickly when tailed and allowed to rest on the ground and /or hook and become fairly placid in a short period of time. They are reluctant biters and surprisingly tolerant of harrassment.


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## vicherps (Jul 15, 2012)

snakeface said:


> no such thing as a placid EB said:
> 
> 
> > Snakeface I disagree with the comment you have just made. Although if you generalise the Eastern Brown Snake behaviour they are a highly defensive species but every specimen/individual is different. When I use the term placid I mean that it was less confronting than other individuals (their is variability) but if you come to think of it it's quite smart as if it was to bite me it there would be a chance that I would get more arouse and kill it (from this individuals perception), remember their in the natural world where 'survival of the fittest' is the real deal so one action that may not be necessary might cost it's life.
> ...


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jul 15, 2012)

Firepac said:


> I completely disagree, I deal mainly with wild EB's here in NQ, and the vast majority while initially defensive will settle down quite quickly when tailed and allowed to rest on the ground and /or hook and become fairly placid in a short period of time. They are reluctant biters and surprisingly tolerant of harrassment.



Second that. Exact same observation, defensive upon initial contact followed by immediate calming once tailed. Always and without exception. This is only my limited experience though and would not presume to speak on all EB encounters.


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## fantapants (Jul 15, 2012)

last thing you want to do around any EB is lapse into a false sense of security, you can never trust a brown at anytime they are just to unpredictable even if they look calm or placid they can react in an instant. Would you ever freehandle a brown like others do rbb or tigers? i think not. I'm not trying to contradict or belittle your opinion but having dealt with relocating hundreds of EB's i cant stress enough to be 100% focused at all times and never take your eyes off that snakes head while handling any EB. Just one lapse in concentration or distractions can turn nasty in a second. There just to dangerous to treat lightly


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## saratoga (Jul 15, 2012)

After a 3 year study on Common Brown Snakes in the field, Rick Shine and Patrick Whitaker concluded that "Overall, our findings belie this animal's reputation for 'aggression'. Instead, Eastern Brown Snakes are very wary of people and avoid them whenever they can." (Whitaker & Shine, 1999).

A couple of papers well worth reading if you can find them

Whitaker, P.B. & Shine, R. (1999). When, where and why do people encounter Australian brown snakes (Pseudonaja textilis: Elapidae)? Wildlife Research 26: 675 - 688. 

Whitaker, P.B. & Shine, R. (1999). Responses of free-ranging brown snakes (Pseudonaja textilis: Elapidae) to encounters with humans. Wildlife Research 26: 689 - 704.


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## vicherps (Jul 15, 2012)

snakeface said:


> last thing you want to do around any EB is lapse into a false sense of security, you can never trust a brown at anytime they are just to unpredictable even if they look calm or placid they can react in an instant. Would you ever freehandle a brown like others do rbb or tigers? i think not. I'm not trying to contradict or belittle your opinion but having dealt with relocating hundreds of EB's i cant stress enough to be 100% focused at all times and never take your eyes off that snakes head while handling any EB. Just one lapse in concentration or distractions can turn nasty in a second. There just to dangerous to treat lightly



I always take on the approach to expect the unexpected with snakes. I don't free handle dangerously venomous elapids because in my opinion it is a unnecessary risk to take.



Firepac said:


> snakeface said:
> 
> 
> > I completely disagree, I deal mainly with wild EB's here in NQ, and the vast majority while initially defensive will settle down quite quickly when tailed and allowed to rest on the ground and /or hook and become fairly placid in a short period of time. They are reluctant biters and surprisingly tolerant of harrassment.
> ...


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## fantapants (Jul 15, 2012)

Handling EB's is my focus as i'm well aware of their desire to keep well clear of humans when confronted, being an extremely difficult snake to get good photos from due to their nervous demeanour tailing a EB for proper positioning is pretty common and this is when distractions or complacency can result in getting tagged without warning. Not knowing any of you personnaly and what experience you may have handling elapids my own experience of 15 years relocating elapids,( almost 90% of all callouts being EBS around metro Adelaide) compels me to offer advice only when i feel maybe someone who might have limited experience fall into a complacent attitude towards brownsnakes due to a handfull of encounters with some less agitated or quite calm/placid snakes belying the true defensive, and ready to strike snakes they will encounter in the future. Its not advice to demean someone its my own experiences that compels me to keep people safe from any harm in the future from one of the only aussie snakes which demand respect everytime, all the time. Nothing more to be said from me. be safe fellow herpers


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## Firepac (Jul 15, 2012)

saratoga said:


> After a 3 year study on Common Brown Snakes in the field, Rick Shine and Patrick Whitaker concluded that "Overall, our findings belie this animal's reputation for 'aggression'. Instead, Eastern Brown Snakes are very wary of people and avoid them whenever they can." (Whitaker & Shine, 1999).
> 
> A couple of papers well worth reading if you can find them
> 
> ...



Also worth a read is " The defensive strike of the Eastern Brownsnake, _Pseudonaja textilis _(Elapidae) by Whitaker, P.B, Ellis, K. & Shine, R. Functional Ecology 2000, *14,* 25-31"

A couple of quotes from the above worth noting....

" Contrary to popular opinion, Eastern Borwnsnakes are reluctant to deliver firm bites in response to human harassment even when continuously provoked. It is estimated that only 15% of the strikes recorded had the potential to cause significant envenomation"

" Overall, unrestrained Eastern Brownsnakes are surprisingly tolerant of human harassment, and communicate their offensive intentions through elaborate display (often mistaken for agression)"

"Hence, many of our results are counter-intuitive, and run counter to prevailing opinions. For example,
(1) brown snakes tolerated substantial harassment before launching a defensive strike, especially when close to their preferred body temperature;
(2) small individuals were more tolerant of harassment;
(3) the snake's strike was relatively slow (<2 m/s);
(4) strike speed was not significantly affected by body temperature, gender or size;
(5) most brownsnakes gave a warning of an imminent strike;
(6) a quarter of all trikes were bluff or aborted;
(7) most of the strikes missed the target;
8) strikes preceeded by full display were slower, but more accurate and more often involved firm bites and venom expenditure;
(9) thus, only 15% of all strikes had the potential to cause singificant envenomation."


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## imported_Varanus (Jul 15, 2012)

Nice bit of info, firepac. I also deal mostly with EB's around the New England and have had few problems, though it's always wise to keep an eye on the pointy end with any elapid.

I've also rehabed a few EB's with a variety of wounds varying in severity and believe ,with gently handling, nervous defensive displays towards the rehabber(?) greatly reduce over time. In my experience..


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## fantapants (Jul 15, 2012)

Firepac said:


> Also worth a read is " The defensive strike of the Eastern Brownsnake, _Pseudonaja textilis _(Elapidae) by Whitaker, P.B, Ellis, K. & Shine, R. Functional Ecology 2000, *14,* 25-31"
> 
> A couple of quotes from the above worth noting....
> 
> ...


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## hilly (Jul 15, 2012)

^ yeah Rick shine is a lab rat.... I mean what field work has he ever done?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jul 15, 2012)

snakeface said:


> last thing you want to do around any EB is lapse into a false sense of security, <- should go without saying you can never trust a brown at anytime they are just to unpredictable even if they look calm or placid they can react in an instant. <-as is the case with all wild animals including captive ones. Would you ever freehandle a brown like others do rbb or tigers? <- comparing tigers to rbb's? I now question your experience with elapids  i think not . I'm not trying to contradict or belittle your opinion <- yes you are. do some reading on the subject of the human ego. it should help you understand exactly why. but having dealt with relocating hundreds of EB's i cant stress enough to be 100% focused at all times <- when, in the above thread did anyone advocate otherwise. just silly. and never take your eyes off that snakes head while handling any EB. Just one lapse in concentration or distractions can turn nasty in a second. There just to dangerous to treat lightly <- again, no one said otherwise, your statement is tantamount to saying "Hey! The sky is blue!!" Thanks for the insight, anyone who would treat any dangerous elapid differently has probably been envenomated by now.



Wasn't going to bother adding to this thread, but your flippant disregard of the findings of respected, experienced, and peer-reviewed researchers is ridiculous. I'm not trying to contradict or belittle your opinion, but your assertion that there's "no such thing as a placid EB" is just horse plop. At no stage did anyone advocate complacency with any elapid (other than yourself with the tiger/rbb analogy), and I know of no elapid relocator or handler (myself included) that would treat these animals with anything other than well deserved respect. With regards to your calling the research of R. Shine et. al. "a load of crap"... well, what can I say but... :facepalm:

Please stop, you're making us all... less astute... with your "contributions".


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## saratoga (Jul 15, 2012)

Firepac said:


> " Overall, unrestrained Eastern Brownsnakes are surprisingly tolerant of human harassment, and communicate their offensive intentions through elaborate display (often mistaken for agression)"
> 
> "Hence, many of our results are counter-intuitive, and run counter to prevailing opinions. For example,
> (1) brown snakes tolerated substantial harassment before launching a defensive strike, especially when close to their preferred body temperature;
> ...



Note that Rick Shines work and results deal with _unrestrained_ wild Brown Snakes in the field. Start tailing/restraining Brown Snakes and you probably up the ante considerably


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## hilly (Jul 15, 2012)

Do yourself a favour champion and google Rick shine. Or you could go and buy one of his many published books.


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## saratoga (Jul 15, 2012)

snakeface said:


> never heard of those so called experts



Do some research. Rick Shine is one of the foremost herpetologists in the country, especially when it comes to elapids. He is equally at home in the field or lab, and all his findings are backed up with hard science and a wealth of experience. He is definately not "one of those" academics up there in the realms of theory without hands on experience. I can assure you he treats all venomous snakes with due respect.

No one here is advocating that EBs should not be treated with the utmost respect given their potential to inflict fatal bites; it's just that their reputation for being aggressive and attacking on site is grossly exaggerated and is not supported by any evidence and this is borne out in his series of studies and papers... read them before you misconstrue what is being said!

Well known american herpetologist Clifford Pope once said that 'Snakes are first cowards, next bluffers, and last of all warriors'... an appropriate quote here!


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## Firepac (Jul 15, 2012)

Snakeface, you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine but you are not entitled to call members of this forum dumbasses and try to give the impression that your opinions are superior to anyone elses or to respected reserchers. Your post has been reported to mods.

Saratoga, compleetly agree in initial ante is upped but in my experience they do soon calm down and become relatively placid.


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## fantapants (Jul 15, 2012)

im not interested in knowing who rick shine is, what can his book teach me? why do we treat so many people involved with reptiles like rockstars when its the reptiles themselves who are the true superstars! in 15 years of dealing with venomous snakes in their own enviroment nearly everyday for six months a year adding up to hundreds of wild caught and relocated snakes without ever being bitten makes me the most experienced person regarding safe handling and intimate knowledge of the snakes behavior than someones brief study of a handful of snakes over a couple of years and if you lot think that ridiculous study is an excuse to get complacent around something that looks the same it doesnt mean they react the same way. Just like you and me... you should respect MY advice not disregard it because you havnt heard of me! if it takes having to be on tv or In some magazine or publish a book to get respect thats ridiculous, its the proffessional local snake catchers advice you should heed! if my name was Rob Ambrose or barry goldsmith who i respect as they do me i bet it would have been a little more respectful than what i recieved

remove me from this site admin, thank you


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## eipper (Jul 15, 2012)

Snake face,

Now I am not saying this is an intelligent thing to do nor I don't think I would do it theses days but.....







Not all elapids including browns and taipans are out to bite. This shot was taken back in 1999 during a demo a mate was running that I was involved in. (Sorry about the shut eyes...but this was before digital)

Cheers,
Scott


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## imported_Varanus (Jul 15, 2012)

Damn Scott!!.... that's just opened a can of.....snakes!!!.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 15, 2012)

I can photshop some eyes on that for you scott, lol..

For the record, brownsnakes can be placid, red bellies can be demons...

Depends on the snake and the human that is interacting with it.


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## saratoga (Jul 15, 2012)

ssssnakeman said:


> Depends on the snake and the human that is interacting with it.



Very true and the human part of the statement can be a very significant contributor to the snakes temperament and outcome!


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## hilly (Jul 15, 2012)

Since you respect Rob (who I am mates with) and Barry, may I suggest giving them a call and asking them about Rick Shine. While you're on the phone to Rob, feel free to ask him for my number and you can give me a call too. I'd be more than happy to talk to you, about catch and release and captive husbandry of elapids.

No-one has questioned anything you've claimed, except when you have questioned Rick Shines peer reviewed papers, and his field experience. Also, if you don't learn something from Shines book "Australian Snakes- A Natural History" I'll be very VERY surprised.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Shine#section_3


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## eipper (Jul 15, 2012)

Don't get me wrong I am an advocate for sensible handling of venomous snakes, I have stuffed up and have suffered some of the effects of it. However, for people to say that you cannot freehandle this or that....well that claim is just begging to be proved wrong.

I maintain that certain forms of freehandling (not the w:"ker type stuff above) is a suitable method to handle/move some elapids, but you could do it much safer by using a shift or trap box.

Baz....Mulgas are the worst.....they think everything is food.....


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## hilly (Jul 15, 2012)

ssssnakeman said:


> I can photshop some eyes on that for you scott, lol..
> 
> For the record, brownsnakes can be placid, red bellies can be demons...
> 
> Depends on the snake and the human that is interacting with it.



You just hit the nail right on the head mate.


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## IgotFrogs (Jul 15, 2012)

snakeface said:


> im not interested in knowing who rick shine is, what can his book teach me? why do we treat so many people involved with reptiles like rockstars when its the reptiles themselves who are the true superstars! in 15 years of dealing with venomous snakes in their own enviroment nearly everyday for six months a year adding up to hundreds of wild caught and relocated snakes without ever being bitten makes me the most experienced person regarding safe handling and intimate knowledge of the snakes behavior than someones brief study of a handful of snakes over a couple of years and if you lot think that ridiculous study is an excuse to get complacent around something that looks the same it doesnt mean they react the same way. Just like you and me... you should respect MY advice not disregard it because you havnt heard of me! if it takes having to be on tv or In some magazine or publish a book to get respect thats ridiculous, its the proffessional local snake catchers advice you should heed! if my name was Rob Ambrose or barry goldsmith who i respect as they do me i bet it would have been a little more respectful than what i recieved
> 
> remove me from this site admin, thank you




You can remove your self very simply by just not logging back on. it works very well


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## saratoga (Jul 15, 2012)

hilly said:


> No-one has questioned anything you've claimed, except when you have questioned Rick Shines peer reviewed papers, and his field experience. Also, if you don't learn something from Shines book "Australian Snakes- A Natural History" I'll be very VERY surprised.



+1


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