# Spider ball python ban



## Bl69aze (Feb 10, 2019)

Thoughts?

for those who dont know - Spiders = jags pretty much - They have a wobble neuro defect


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## LittleButterfly (Feb 10, 2019)

I think its good because of the neuro defect.


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## Imported_tuatara (Feb 10, 2019)

Ofc; the person focused on making money wants an animal with a defect to be able to be bred and sold.
IMO: it's fine that they're getting banned.


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## TheRamiRocketMan (Feb 10, 2019)

I've never fully understood the appeal of these odd mutations.

I know people like to make their animals look different and interesting but if that mutation is likely to detract from the animal's quality of life I don't think that is a good thing.
This video seems to be mostly a complaint about regulation in the reptile trade, something us Aussies have to deal with in much greater force than they do in the US.

Overall this doesn't ruffle me at all and quite frankly I don't understand the complaint. I suspect this might have something to do with him being a high-end breeder and worrying about laws which could affect his business model.

Sidenote: That room full of tanks looks AWESOME


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 10, 2019)

Not sure how they will control the sale of the anything in countries with no licensing regulations.
Im not pro Jags, (in fact the opposite) but Brian makes some good points and many of the morphs people enjoy in Oz today initially had heaps of problems until the genes have been out-crossed.


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## Sdaji (Feb 11, 2019)

Wow, that was some hardcore repetition! Also very surprised to see Brian spreading a bit of misinformation (such as albino Corns having started out as deleterious!). Very strange because he's usually really good in this way (and pretty much all others too - great guy, I still think so overall).

A couple of people here seem to have missed something: Brian (the guy in the video) is in America. The ban is in the UK.

In the UK there is currently quite an extreme movement attempting to restrict and many hope to completely eliminate the keeping of reptiles. As Brian says, this is a very concerning slippery slope.

I personally do not like spiders or jags. I would be happier if everyone decided not to keep them. But, seeing them banned in a legally binding context is a terrible thing.

I'm not terribly surprised to see an Australian in the first response here saying they support the ban. Actually, the first three! Good grief, Australia is a sorry case! The nanny state of Australia is in full swing and hideously, many, perhaps most Australians are embracing the forceful removal of their own freedom. Really, this means they don't deserve to keep it. Reptile keeping in Australia may become far more restrictive in the future.



Pauls_Pythons said:


> Not sure how they will control the sale of the anything in countries with no licensing regulations.
> Im not pro Jags, (in fact the opposite) but Brian makes some good points and many of the morphs people enjoy in Oz today initially had heaps of problems until the genes have been out-crossed.



With around 25 years of snake breeding experience, a degree in biological science, a major in genetics, experience working in the genetics industry, I can not think of a single example. I can think of two fairly high profile false claims and a few smaller but also obviously false ones. Most notable is the albino Olive Python (which despite the claims have not changed at all - they are slightly problematic now and were slightly problematic to begin with, and outcrossing will never improve them, only selective inbreeding/linebreeding, the opposite of outcrossing, possibly might, but outcrossing will not help. The problem was 'fixed' by claiming that the problem was initially worse than it was, and then by comparison the current state looked better. As a geneticist with as much knowledge about this morph as anyone, I can tell you that even if you did make progress through careful inbreeding, outcrossing would take you back to where the morph started). You say there are 'many' such morphs in Australia but I don't believe there is even one actual example. Can you name one? The albino Nephrurus are still bad, the silk Beardies are still bad, the scaleless Adders haven't changed... 

Anyway, if this was not going to affect anything else in any way at all I wouldn't particularly care, but it is a step in a very nasty direction and that direction is likely to continue, and seeing people actually embracing it here makes me think Australia has a troubled future, along with the UK (not that this is news to me).


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## TheRamiRocketMan (Feb 11, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> The nanny state of Australia is in full swing and hideously, many, perhaps most Australians are embracing the forceful removal of their own freedom. Really, this means they don't deserve to keep it. Reptile keeping in Australia may become far more restrictive in the future.



What do you mean by this and what makes you think keeping will get more restrictive?

Banning specific genotypes which cause neurological abnormalities is preventing animals from being _purpose bred_ to be dysfunctional for the sake of appearance. It's an infringement on my personal freedom yes, but it is protecting the freedoms and rights of the animals.

I just don't see why you say Australia is so restrictive. In Australia you can keep pretty much anything native. Want a giant Lace Monitor? Taipan? Death Adder? All legal. The only illegal native species are crocodiles, sea-turtles and sea-snakes. Even then you are able to get exemptions.


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## LittleButterfly (Feb 11, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> Wow, that was some hardcore repetition! Also very surprised to see Brian spreading a bit of misinformation (such as albino Corns having started out as deleterious!). Very strange because he's usually really good in this way (and pretty much all others too - great guy, I still think so overall).
> 
> A couple of people here seem to have missed something: Brian (the guy in the video) is in America. The ban is in the UK.
> 
> ...


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## Mick666 (Feb 11, 2019)

TheRamiRocketMan said:


> what makes you think keeping will get more restrictive?


https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum...-the-attack-on-reptile-keeping-in-qld.222661/


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## LittleButterfly (Feb 11, 2019)

Don't want to start an argument but I was misinformed and didn't know the whole story


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## Yellowtail (Feb 11, 2019)

I think it is well known that I am not in favour of breeding anything with genetic "defects" or potential health problems and I have friends with constant issues with their bulldogs and pugs but I am also strongly in favour of less regulation not more. I regularly sell hatchlings interstate and the red tape and paperwork is overwhelming and achieves nothing to protect wildlife. I need to complete a complicated Movement Advice form to sell a hatchling to a friend next door or even my partner who lives with me, or more difficult if I meet a prospective buyer to show him some hatchlings I can't sell him one then but have to go home and complete the bloody form online then meet him a 2nd time to deliver the reptile. Sure you can prepare the Movement Advice in advance and I mostly do but it's not always possible, some people don't want to give you their personal information until they are sure of buying your animal. Meanwhile I am removing 4 or 5 carpet pythons a week from my bird aviaries and could easily include them in my collection, say I bred them, sell them, so how does the regulation prevent that. The only thing licensing achieves is prevent impulse purchases by inexperienced people who have no idea how to care for an animal but no respectable breeder should sell to them anyway and possession of a licence does not teach them anything about reptile keeping.
5 years ago on impulse I purchased a very attractive caramel jag 100% het for albino, he is set up in a big enclosure and well cared for like my other snakes, yes he has some neuro symptoms and I am probably never going to breed him because apart from the health issues I am less than impressed with the sun glows I have seen and don't see the point when I can produce better looking animals that are healthy pure Darwin.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 11, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> With around 25 years of snake breeding experience, a degree in biological science, a major in genetics, experience working in the genetics industry,


Im sure I hear this statement or parts of it every time you get involved in a discussion where you disagree with others experience or thoughts. There is no question that you are intelligent but you do come across as a narcissist when you continually throw these statements into conversations as though no one should doubt you.
I have only been involved in reptiles for 30 years but granted most of that was experienced with animals seen as exotics in Oz. Dont have a degree in anything fancy, was always too busy providing for a family to take time out for a piece of paper that added no value to my earning potential.

I have seen the impact of breeding albino spotteds (albino to albino) & albino olives (albino to albino) here in Australia. Maybe I was mistaken and didnt see high fatality rates in either of those species. I guess science always has the answer even when it doesn't.


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## Sdaji (Feb 11, 2019)

TheRamiRocketMan said:


> What do you mean by this and what makes you think keeping will get more restrictive?



I think this is pretty self explanatory, and should be obvious. When I was a young kid people could go catch wild reptiles and keep them in my state, including stuff caught in other states. No license required. It has only become more strict and regulated. When I first kept snakes I got a license for venomous snakes at the age of 15 with no parental permission or notification, no evidence of training, etc. These days that's unthinkable. Some of the restrictions are perhaps not a bad thing, but some should definitely be opposed by the very people the restrictions are being imposed on. It's difficult to comprehend how someone could want to embrace a legal restriction on their own hobby and not see how it relates to things becoming more restrictive!



> Banning specific genotypes which cause neurological abnormalities is preventing animals from being _purpose bred_ to be dysfunctional for the sake of appearance. It's an infringement on my personal freedom yes, but it is protecting the freedoms and rights of the animals.



Keep in mind, I don't like jags, spiders, etc, and I would be happy if everyone decided not to breed them any more and they disappeared, but no one is purpose breeding snakes to be 'dysfunctional'. The problems are a side effect, not something anyone wants. As I said above, if not for the slippery slope issue I wouldn't really care about this happening, but when people who know much less than hobbyists arbitrarily ban something, it sets a dangerous (to the hobby) precedent. I don't think you understand this.



> I just don't see why you say Australia is so restrictive. In Australia you can keep pretty much anything native. Want a giant Lace Monitor? Taipan? Death Adder? All legal. The only illegal native species are crocodiles, sea-turtles and sea-snakes. Even then you are able to get exemptions.



Other than being drowned in red tape, yes, the Australian system in most cases is pretty good for hobbyists, but there are some absurd rules for breeders (you'll understand if you're ever producing hundreds or thousands of babies per year). This issue is currently in the UK and is a warning sign of what is happening there. If Australians like it and don't opposite it, it will likely happen to them, and they'll have similar problems to the UK. Australia is moving more slowly in that direction but it is moving in that direction, and you should have a look at what is being pushed for there (complete ban or draconian restriction on reptile keeping).
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Pauls_Pythons said:


> Im sure I hear this statement or parts of it every time you get involved in a discussion where you disagree with others experience or thoughts. There is no question that you are intelligent but you do come across as a narcissist when you continually throw these statements into conversations as though no one should doubt you.
> I have only been involved in reptiles for 30 years but granted most of that was experienced with animals seen as exotics in Oz. Dont have a degree in anything fancy, was always too busy providing for a family to take time out for a piece of paper that added no value to my earning potential.
> 
> I have seen the impact of breeding albino spotteds (albino to albino) & albino olives (albino to albino) here in Australia. Maybe I was mistaken and didnt see high fatality rates in either of those species. I guess science always has the answer even when it doesn't.



And similarly, it is very common when people post misinformation like you have and I pull them up on it, rather than saying "Yes, you are correct, I was wrong" they say "You are a narcissist" in order to dodge the relevant issue. Hey, maybe I am, but what I say is still accurate, and what you said isn't.

The Spotteds are as bad as they ever were and won't ever change. The same is true of the Olives. As I said about the Olives, they were never very bad. As for the Spotteds, sadly they are pretty bad, and some breeders are making clearly false claims about them, lying about having solved the problems. I found one breeder comical when we posted a picture of a female albino on a clutch of eggs patting himself on the back for getting a 100% fertile clutch when most of the eggs were clearly slugs! As a geneticist I can say that the claims of the most high profile breeders making claims about this morph are completely false. The reality of the Spotteds (which incidentally aren't actually Spotteds) is that some of them do hatch out almost of completely fine, those ones tend to live at least a few years without issue, and those individuals are used as 'evidence' that all the others are fine too. Selective breeding (careful inbreeding) may improve them slightly, but repeated outcrossing to unrelated animals will take you back to square one.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 11, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> what I say is still accurate, and what you said isn't.


Let me go beat myself for saying out-crossed instead of line bred. You are the genetics expert and Im just a dumb working guy. My sincere apologies.



Sdaji said:


> Hey, maybe I am


No maybe needed.


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## Sdaji (Feb 13, 2019)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> No maybe needed.



No argument there, but you're still the one making ad hominem attacks as a way of avoiding the actual topic after being pulled up when wrong, and I'm still providing the accurate information and correcting the misinformation.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 13, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> I'm still providing the accurate information and correcting the misinformation



You have experience to support your thoughts and my experience supports another opinion. Doesn't mean my information is incorrect nor does i mean im attempting to take the conversation off track.


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## Sdaji (Feb 13, 2019)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> You have experience to support your thoughts and my experience supports another opinion. Doesn't mean my information is incorrect nor does i mean im attempting to take the conversation off track.



You can't even name examples of the "many" you claim exist which had "heaps" of problems which were fixed by outcrossing. I'm quite happy to bluntly say they don't exist, this is factually incorrect. 'Opinions all being valid' works for things like 'chocolate ice-cream is awesome' or 'Pineapple is great on pizza' or 'sunsets are more beautiful than sunrises'. Opinions are not relevant for things like 'this genetic condition causes problem x' or 'outcrossing can/did solve problem y' or '2 + 2 = 4'. If your opinion differs from the facts on tangible matters, you don't hold an equally valid opinion, you're just incorrect.

By all means, name a single morph in Australia which had 'heaps' of problems which were cured by outcrossing. It doesn't even make sense to make this claim, and though it would take a long time to explain to a layman why this is, I'm quite capable of it, and probably enough of a nerd/fan of facts/evidence and disliking of myths/misinformation that I'd bother to do it.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 13, 2019)

We have all heard your argument on what constitutes a good opinion before too. 

This is totally boring and Im not going to waste any more time feeding that ego of yours.


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