# Brown Snake or Taipan???



## BROWNS (Feb 7, 2006)

Hey guys,this is the 4th slough i've found right near my bedroom in as many weeks but the first 3 i knew what they were,one was bts and the other 2 were taipans for sure from the head basically still left attached and easy to recognise even after sloughing,taipans have an unmistakable head but i found this partially or almost fully shed skin except for the head and tail wrapped around a bromeliad it had used to shed on.Without seeing the head i'm useless and wouldn't know what the slough is from but i'm strongly leaning towards taipan as very rarely do i see common browns this size around where i live but taipans most definitely.

Just wondering if anyone at all can make an id from just this much of a slough or even a pic of one as below???Cheers...












The piece with the head or tail end may be still there somewhere but i wasn't going poking around looking for them,here's the part i could fully see and get a good look at,any ideas anyone?






Only reason i think taipan is that there's nothing else around that ive seen in a long time that size other than taipans,most of the browns are reasonably small,i get black and normal phased taipans also i'm going with standard brownish coloured evil headed taipan because the skin seems a bit darker dorsally?


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## MrBredli (Feb 8, 2006)

If i had to guess i'd say Taipan for the same reason you suggested.. "seems a bit darker dorsally".


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## zen (Feb 8, 2006)

Hi Browns.



> i'm strongly leaning towards taipan as very rarely do i see common browns this size around where i live



Check the midbody scale rows from the skin.
Taipan has 21 or 23 rows at mid-body.
Eastern Brown has 17.
Also look for keeled scales on the neck & vertebral region which some Taipans have.

Cheers, zen


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## MrBredli (Feb 8, 2006)

Where did you get the scale counts from zen? I think i have a book at home that has them all, but i'm not sure which one or where it would be.


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## zen (Feb 8, 2006)

HRH Hal Cogger's bible #XI 2000.

Wilson & Swan agree in 2003.


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## BROWNS (Feb 8, 2006)

Thanks zen,i'm quite confused about where to look also and skin's been binned now too late however it seems to be a common event and i'll look for the 21-23 mid body scales etc next time,i was unaware taipans had any keeled scales although i've learnt a bit about them over time,,i will certainly look hard at the next subject,thanks again zen,cheers

What would you be leaning towards yourself just from the pics zen just out of curiousity???


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## zen (Feb 8, 2006)

I can count 10 mid-body scales on one side of the dorsal scale in that last pic.

So based on that, I'd say an educated guess would be Taipan.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

You have a brown tree snake skin there Browns no doubt about it.


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## zen (Feb 8, 2006)

What are you basing that on Pilbara?


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

The way you tell is by looking at the vertebral lateral scales. On the Brown tree snake these scales are a slightly different shape and a bit larger than the scales bordering the sides. If you look very closely towards the tail end section you can see this.
Cheers Dave


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## zen (Feb 8, 2006)

Surely if it was a Brown Tree snake the skin would have some indication of dark cross-bands or at least some scales slightly edged with black. If the darker dorsal pigmentation shows on the skin then banding would too.

Maybe it's a Browns Bromeliad Snake ? :wink: :lol:


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## BROWNS (Feb 8, 2006)

You're dead sure Dave?Just i found a bts slough near the same place which could also have been a gts as i know jack about scale counts etc but the bts and gts sloughs i assume i usually see have all been in trees,even in the guttering of the house and looked very different to this skin which must have been a thumper of a brown tree still missing a lot of it's skin there,thanks for that if you're dead sure i'll now have to suss out the sloughs i keep finding near my bedroom more thoroughly,i've also noticed the slight banding pattern on the bts sloughs i thought i'd seen which this doesn't have either but i know you know your taipans mate i know that,so a boring big old bts it is which is fine by me i just don't like facing taipans mate i'm sure you could come up with a funny looking scenario if you tried picturing it :wink: :lol: I thought for sure it was an elapid slough so now i know better,good stuff!


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a pic which shows what I am talking about. A taipan does not have this odd scale. It is a brown tree snake.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

As you have not given the exact length, I must point out that I am faily sure that green tree snakes also have this odd scale however they have a lower mid body scale count.


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## zen (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm not so sure Pilbara. :?: 
Those broad ventrals look like a large terrestrial elapid to me.

I'd sleep lightly Browns :wink:


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## BROWNS (Feb 8, 2006)

OK,I see where you mean now.Still must have been a monster brown tree as i see them most nights and lots of them,saw a good 5 footer plus much like the roadkill below tonight coming home from the pub just cruising along and very very skinny still at that size, and as zen said and i would have thought you'd see some trace of the slight banding on the slough which is nowhere near as prominent as the more Northern bts but stilll banded along with a pic of a smaller live specimen and i know skins stretch heaps etc but there's quite a bit of slough sill missing and all i can say i'd have liked to see the size of that animal in the flesh as we do get the odd supersized bts here which not many ppl believe me when i show the approx length...

What's the max size anyone here has seen a bts get to just from curiosity again?

Ooops here's the pics..


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

Brown tree snakes have broad ventrals also and have been found ten feet long. But the fact that remains is that this scale is the distinguishing key and will never change whether you are sure of it your self ,or not.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

Next time you catch one Browns have a close look at these scales and you will see exactly what I mean.


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## BROWNS (Feb 8, 2006)

No idea of exact length of shed as it was incomplete but the part you see was easily 5-6 foot and very very girthy for a bts which you can make out from the size of the regular sized pavers and was quite a fresh slough which can be seen while still in the Bromeliad and obviously stretched quite a bit but the head end didn't look to be tapering offtoo soon which is why i'm thinking it was a thumper of a bts that's all.

Don't worry zen i'm nocturnal mate so i usually see all the nighttime stuff as well as your elapids etc you see around 9 in the morning and 5ish in the afternoon and i know the possibilities of what could be outside the door at any given time,i once woke up to a small eastern brown cruising the floor of my bedroom which luckily dissapeared into a boot which i tossed outside pretty darn quick with some help from my ol man i don't think he was expecting a brown snake to drop out that's for sure,although it wouldn't surprise him now lol


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## zen (Feb 8, 2006)

> i'm nocturnal mate



So we're not keeping you up mate! :lol: 

Pilbara said:-


> the fact that remains is that this scale is the distinguishing key and will never change



Never say never Dave!  
I've noticed that in shed skins, the lateral scales collapse, stretch & lose shape more than the dorsal scales do.

:idea: Just an observation that might influence the *apparent* enlargement of the dorsals.


P.S - The only universal truth is that *everything changes**  
*Buddhist precept. :lol:

P.P.S - We may have to agree to disagree on this one Dave. :wink: 

Goodnight


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## TrueBlue (Feb 8, 2006)

Looking at the pic Id say common brown definitly not a taipan, as the scales are to large up towards the head, taipans have distinctly elongated dosal scales on the top third of body.


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## Moreliaman (Feb 8, 2006)

Browns..............easy way to tell a brown skin from a taipan skin..............in brown snakes the anal vent scale is divided........in taipans it's single.


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## BROWNS (Feb 8, 2006)

AH so all you need to do is check out their clacka,oops i mean cloaca but i won't get that close.So we have a couple going for taipan,one dead sure it's a big ass bts and another saying brown snake...just the answer i was chasing :lol: 

Haven't seen a common brown anywhere near that size here for a while Rob he must've been a thumper brown too as well as bts if that's what it was and i have said to a couple of herps i've seen bts close on 10 foot and they just laughed,i have no need to talk out my ass and thought that's how big quite a few i've seen have been,very agro and quick too.If taipan just average sized but i still doubt the bts although Dave knows his Taipans and says it's not,TrueBlue knows his brown snakes and says that's what it is so i reckon it's still an elapid of some description we do get red bellies but i do still doubt it to be a bts but we'll soon find out who's correct with the knowledge here...cheers for the input guys it's an interesting topic!

Also there was no ass scale on this skin but others i've found you only needed one look at the head to know they were taipans for sure can't mistake them when you et a good look not just a glimpse...


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## ad (Feb 8, 2006)

My money's on Dave!


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## zulu (Feb 8, 2006)

*re Browns*

Yeh think ide be going with experience so ide back pilbarra,poor old zeny may win yet probably invent some theory LOLz its eye color and species preference for pot plants,if you dont know make something up :idea: There is or was a browntree snake preserved in a big jar at the hideaway hotel tiaro QLD and it was supposed to be a taipan identified by parks and wildlife.This when i inspected it was a monstrous brown tree snake of a drab brown color with a faded pattern.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

No offence intended to some of you guys ( actually I do mean to offend Rob because he should know better ) but clearly so many people here do not know how to identify a brown tree by the skin. IT IS A BROWN TREE SNAKE whether you choose to believe me or not. You do not always need the tail skin, head skin, or have the anal plate to positively identify it as such.
You can stretch the skin side ways or any direction you like but that backbone scale will always remain the odd scale out as on a brown tree snake it is shaped slightly different from all the other body scales. If you look real close you will see that the back bone scale is already stretched out to its max and clearly shows the different shaped larger scale bordered by the normal shaped body scales. A brown snake does not have this unusual scale and nether does a Taipan.

Also Browns let people laugh; those are the people who still have much to learn. Brown tree snakes are a extremely rare find at ten foot. I have seen only two close to that mark and one was at the Bingal Bay chook farm and the other was at the Formosa chicken farm in Innisfail and I have witnesses who saw the one at Bingal bay who are also reptile keepers. 

There are many knowledgeable reptile keepers who can rattle off scientific names at will and can tell you every known disease or husbandry technique known but still haven?t left their house to venture into the bush. Unfortunately some of these types bask in their deluded belief that they are truly experts and refuse to believe things that sound different than what they themselves have read. The sad part of it is they are missing out on so much experience that can be only gained from interaction with wild herps and they probably don?t even realize it. 

The best Herpers are who do, or did do both e.g: The late Graeme Gow.


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## Moreliaman (Feb 8, 2006)

Well.........on that note i'm off before people start throwing toys out of prams ! :lol:


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)




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## jordo (Feb 8, 2006)

Your all insane, its obviously a tiger snake :wink: :lol:


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## Moreliaman (Feb 8, 2006)

funnier than that i just re-read the post again and realised you were on about brown tree snakes and im on about king browns, but anyway, i hope to be going on a few herp hunting trips when i come over,PilbaraPythons , can i ask a few questions? via pm ?, dont want to bore everyone else :wink: 


(pages are taking ages to open!)


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## BROWNS (Feb 8, 2006)

By rights i know i shouldn't even have doubted you Dave as i know you're spot on with scale counts and id etc but please,please rub it in to Rob a bit lolz although you saw where i was coming from and like you said get out there and see them all for yourself while you still can, it's a great buzz the amount you can see in just a short time be it a tiny furina to brown snakes at night,.I head out for a spot quite often by myself and see heaps most people completely miss just keeping my eye out and then when you do show someone they can't work out how the hell you even saw the animal???The real experts are like a couple i've been herping with who id tiny gex etc at 120 clicks now that's practical gained and applied knowledge and i love it.I'd just love to go bush, unfortunately the roads is where i see most herps which is plenty or around my yard like a little scalaris running round the pool again today trying to nab dragonflys and butterflys etc

Thanks again Dave that's one i know i'll never forget and will get a pic of one of these 10 footer bts one day and see who's laughing then huh???I've mentioned different types of lovely carpets we get here also to well known experienced herps who never believed me there either till they actually saw some of these specimens.Always have to prove it especially on APS because some apparently seem to think they come from much further advanced countries in the field of herpetology,or are just so much more knowledgable than others sitting behind a pc in a concrete jungles with their doors locked,we are just so far behind and apparently know jack haha and am sick of it i know what i see simple as that..Just like this thread if you don't know and don't ask you'll never find out!

zen,tell Razza for me that Confuscious say"Nude lady on edge of cliff sure to get knocked off"


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with exposing yourself as some body who doesn't know everything because we all know that nobody knows eveything any way. While I may have experience in some areas I am an absolute amateur in others especially for example, identifying the different species of lerista etc. I also lack knowledge in areas like turtles and frogs. The nice thing about this place is that no matter how much we all think we know there will always be something to learn off others and even from people with less experience at times.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 8, 2006)

Moreliaman
Ask as many question as you like.
Cheers Dave


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## TrueBlue (Feb 9, 2006)

Dave is probally right as hes one of the best herps a know when it comes to the scalation of our snakes, but we can still give him lots and lots of poo, just because it is fun to do so.


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 9, 2006)

I'll back you up a bit here Rob. The question that was asked was: Is it a taipan or a brown snake? You really just said it definitely wasn't a taipan and as there was no BTS option given you said that Browns should "go with the brown snake option". so, although it may well be a BTS, technically, you still answered browns' question correctly.

follow anyone?


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## TrueBlue (Feb 9, 2006)

huh,........ :wink: 
dam straight, pete.!!!!!!!!


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