# Looking for Male centrilian stud to impregnate my female



## Jason m (May 7, 2018)

I’m new here, so mods please move the thread to the appropriate location if It’s not here

As per thread title , I have a female centrilian python who is just reaching breeding age , and I’d like to expose her to suitable male, hoping that they copulate.

I haven’t really thought much about the logistics of actually bringing the snakes together, I’m more just looking for expressions of interest, and if there is any, we will go from there.

I can pay all costs and can give a portion of the eggs or hatchlings as a reward/incentive .


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 7, 2018)

Breeding loans are frought with problems and something I suggest you steer well clear of unless you go into it with an open mind. (Really need to know and trust the people you are working with in these situations).
Im sure this thread will bring up some painful experiences for some of the members on this forum with some interesting stories to share.


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## Bl69aze (May 7, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Breeding loans are frought with problems and something I suggest you steer well clear of unless you go into it with an open mind. (Really need to know and trust the people you are working with in these situations).
> Im sure this thread will bring up some painful experiences for some of the members on this forum with some interesting stories to share.


Can you explain?

I was planning on borrowing an AD male for my female, from the person who bred her (different parents)


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## Sdaji (May 7, 2018)

Paul is quite right. Over the decades I've watched herpers do their thing, I've seen so many people lose friends, animals and money and gain a lot of frustration and bitterness (and sometimes parasites!  ) with the help of breeding loans. I've also seen a handful of success stories. Tread carefully.


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 7, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Can you explain?
> 
> I was planning on borrowing an AD male for my female, from the person who bred her (different parents)



Easy. What happens when one of the animals is carrying an un-diagnosed condition and ends up infecting the other or one of them dies during or just after the breeding season to something unrelated?
What if the breeding is fruitless and your breeding partner doesn't believe you?
There is one special animal that you both want from the pairing.
The borrower refuses to return the loaned snake.

I have seen this go sour even when done with legal contracts. Unless both parties are open, honest and up front it has the potential to go so so bad its just not worth it.


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## Buggster (May 7, 2018)

There’s just so many things that can go wrong:

- ‘invisible’ diseases can be transferred (think: sunshine and other things that many not have many obvious symptoms in its early stages 
- infections 
- mites
- the female could eat the male (or visa versa). Even in breeding season with animals of opposite sex and the same size, it is a possibility. The saddest thing is that it will often result in the death of both animals (the animal killed and eaten intially, but the eater may succumb to injuries it will sustain in a fight, or from eating something that is too big
- injuries (anywhere from a couple nicks to deep, long lacerations)
- loss of animal- what happens if your ‘loan’ snake escapes? What if he dies for no known cause? That would be on you

And this is why breeding isn’t cheap or easy for people who do it properly. You’re going to need to get yourself a new animal with its own setup if you want to breed. Either raise it from a hatchie, or buy an older animal. Even then, you’re going to have to quarantine this new animal for an absolute minimum of 6 months (which will not guarantee it doesn’t have a deadly virus unless you send samples for testing). Then of course risk putting two solitary animals together and hope and pray they’re in the mood for some loving


Why exactly do you want to breed? There’s already thoundsand of bredli pythons on the market- what are you going to do with the potentially dozens of hatchies? Incubator? Housing? Heating? Feeding? Possible vet bills? How will you sell them? Are you going to take the time to chat to people to make sure they know what they’re getting in to prior to selling to them?

I’ve got my first pair of geckos breeding this year and I’ve already planned everything out from before eggs are laid right up until these animals are adults. Calculating costs of food, petrol to get food, enclosures, heating elements, substrates, decor... and I’m not even planning on selling the first few.

If I ever do sell I want to be picky with who gets my animals- do they know what the care looks like? Are they impulse buying? Are they financially able to support the animals (ie: someone who asks for a ‘discount’ to be able to afford initial purchase of an animals because they don’t have the money in my books is not a suitable owner)


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## Sdaji (May 8, 2018)

Heh heh heh. Before doing it, everyone thinks it's going to be fun and easy.

People talk about viruses etc, but I can't recall that being an issue with any cases I've known of. Maybe a small number of mite cases. But while those are the issues people talk about, the actual issues encountered are human reactions to the basic realities of normal breeding which are standard in a one person operation... plus human-caused problems... 

Breeding very often doesn't go perfectly, and people always seem to expect that it will. As soon as the female doesn't lay, the other person gets pissy because they blame the one holding them, or the incubation isn't perfect, or there's an odd number, or there's a dispute over who gets some of the standouts or runts, or when it comes to the work of feeding or selling there are arguments over who does what, or people don't believe the story, or something dies due to either a problem outside the carer's control, or they make a human error and actually stuff up the incubation or heating or whatever, or, they actually do decide to steal something or lie about something... and then the other wants revenge and it gets really nasty...

Hehehe, tread carefully! It most often turns bad, even between good friends... who end up not being friends!


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## pythoninfinite (May 8, 2018)

I attended a gathering with herp vet Shane Simpson in Brisbane last month, to learn more about the 4 or 5 reptile viruses known to be in Australia, and which are invariably fatal once symptoms become evident. Sometimes infection and disease progress is rapid - weeks or months. Sometimes it takes years for the symptoms to manifest themselves and the snake dies. In one instance, a known carrier of virus was euthanased after over 900 days without showing symptoms, but was shedding virus, and therefore able to infect other snakes, throughout that period. One-off testing for virus may not give you an indication of the health status of any snake - they don't shed virus constantly, so one negative test doesn't mean the animal is not infected.

The take home message is that breeding loans are NEVER to be considered, regardless of how low you think the risk is. Your choice.

The comments about disposal of young bredli are also pertinent - you will probably have up to 25 babies which you may not even be able to GIVE away, let alone sell.

If you want to breed snakes, it would be prudent to get something that is easy to sell, and most of the big pythons are in oversupply on the pet market. Antaresias (Children's, Spotteds and Stimson's seem to be always in demand.

It's CentrAlian by the way...

Jamie


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## Sdaji (May 8, 2018)

pythoninfinite said:


> I attended a gathering with herp vet Shane Simpson in Brisbane last month, to learn more about the 4 or 5 reptile viruses known to be in Australia, and which are invariably fatal once symptoms become evident. Sometimes infection and disease progress is rapid - weeks or months. Sometimes it takes years for the symptoms to manifest themselves and the snake dies. In one instance, a known carrier of virus was euthanased after over 900 days without showing symptoms, but was shedding virus, and therefore able to infect other snakes, throughout that period. One-off testing for virus may not give you an indication of the health status of any snake - they don't shed virus constantly, so one negative test doesn't mean the animal is not infected.
> 
> The take home message is that breeding loans are NEVER to be considered, regardless of how low you think the risk is. Your choice.



By the same thinking, buying snakes from any source should never be considered. At some point, to breed snakes, you need to put two snakes together, whether owned by one person or two.

Not to belittle the issue of pathogens, but if what vets like Shane Simpson said was true, every reptile in Australia would be infected by now. A simple reality check shows that things are different. Just as one example, with zero quarantine and animals coming in from all over the country, generally not from the most clean of sources, there are still very very rarely pathogen problems, and the most serious issue is generally mites. Across the country there are many examples of mascot animals in pet shops which are handled by the public along with the many animals coming and going from various breeders, and if anyone could possibly come up with a way to put a snake at as high a risk as possible, this would actually be it, yet they continue along just fine.

Many people take animals to expos and let the public run around handling them right after handling all the others.

While many people squawk about quarantine, I can count the number of keepers who actually do practice decent quarantine on one hand. I always find it amusing when the high profile keepers who bang on about quarantine have collections of snakes including new acquisitions all together, take their animals to expos and let people handle stuff, etc etc, and everyone sort of just stays quiet about the topic when that stuff is going on  The bullspit meter gets destroyed every time this topic comes up.


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 8, 2018)

@pythoninfinite @Sdaji 
The sad fact is that there is evidence that you are both correct! There have been reports in Australia of entire collections being wiped out while there is still much to be desired when it comes to practicing even the most basic of quarentine protocols.
Half the problem is not that we don't need to quarentine is it? Its a bit like saying I don't see any sick kids at school so why should I innoculate little Joey?
I don't know why people don't at least have some basic quarentine processes in place or why they allow 70-80 people to handle an animal at a show then take it home and put it back in the same enclosure/rack within close vicinity to other animals. To me its just inviting a problem. Is it because we are lazy, lack of space, don't believe there is any problem, too stingy to buy seperate cleaning equipment etc etc, I don't know but I will never understand and IMO taking a blasé attitude to quarentine doesn't make it right any more than not vaccinating a child. .


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## pythoninfinite (May 8, 2018)

Oh god you do love the sound of your own clacking keyboard Deutscher! You are correct in some of your assumptions, you are totally wrong on others. I have no reason to doubt Shane Simpson, Danny Brown (who had his entire 70 snake collection wiped out as a result of introducing infected breeding loan animals into his collection) and his colleagues, just as I don't doubt the work of Tim Hyndman, the researcher at Murdoch Uni in Perth who has done 10 years' work on these viruses. All of these individuals have far more exposure to the trade than you do, unless you've added a BVSc to your incredibly long list of academic achievements... These people know the risks beyond your anecdotal claptrap. I suggest you ring Shane Simpson about how often he sees infected snakes in his practice, if you think viral pathogen problems are "very very rare." It's a simple fact that in most cases if a pet snake dies, the owner rarely takes the dead snake to the vet for an expensive post mortem and pathology work - who is going to spend $400 or more on a dead snake that cost them $100 to begin with?

Of course we all know that few people, if any, quarantine their new arrivals effectively. Of course pet shops and expos have people handling animals indiscriminately, and of course there are some risks in everything we do with our reptiles. Sellers at expos who are serious about the health of their animals NEVER let other people handle their animals at the venue. To be honest, the expos I've been to in the last few years have not featured members of the public handling snakes at all, and I think that many have a policy prohibiting this. Your post suggests that the risks are minimal and should not be of any concern. I would be careful about putting that advice on a public forum like this if I were you.

There are a few older keepers/breeders whom I know personally, who have seen the devastation that these viral infections can cause, and who now operate totally closed collections - a couple of them have had no new acquisitions for over 10 years. They breed their animals and are able to sell them for a premium price to keepers who KNOW ABOUT THE RISKS, and this is probably 5% of keepers.

Life is a risk, but we can, and mostly do, all we can to minimise those risks. 

Jamie


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## Sdaji (May 8, 2018)

Paul: Don't get me wrong, pathogens do exist, as do mites, and I think quarantine is important. I literally never met anyone who practiced better quarantine than myself, though perhaps some people put more effort and money in (while not actually achieving anything - many people put huge effort into some links of the quarantine chain, but neglect others, making the entire chain worthless).

I'm not saying there is no issue, but the version of the story put forward by the vets can be debunked by a simple reality check.

Jamie: Herp threads have a tendency to get nasty unnecessarily. If you're going to be like that I'm not going to converse with you.


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## Jason m (May 11, 2018)

Ok thanks for all the replies and advice. I’m going to reconsider breeding my snake...

I suppose one motivation is trying to satisfy my snakes seemingly irrepressible search for a mate. Over the last year my snake constantly paces the (quite enclosure ) at night trying to escape, even though I let her out regularly to explore the room and backyard and bask in the sun(supervision at all times). ....

The only time she doesn’t do this is for the week or so after feeding while digesting a large meal. And during shedding and hibernation periods. I suppose it’s not a good reason to breed at all.

I just don’t want the snake spending its entire life searching it’s cage for a mate it’ll never find. Seems almost cruel ...

Also, and this was probably a terrible idea but I considered breeding for the purpose of releasing most of the hatchlings in their native area , to counterbalance the human toll on their population. Now I think about it, that’s an absurd idea, and definitely illegal too.


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## Buggster (May 11, 2018)

Jason m said:


> Ok thanks for all the replies and advice. I’m going to reconsider breeding my snake...
> 
> I suppose one motivation is trying to satisfy my snakes seemingly irrepressible search for a mate. Over the last year my snake constantly paces the (quite enclosure ) at night trying to escape, even though I let her out regularly to explore the room and backyard and bask in the sun(supervision at all times). ....
> 
> ...



Snake doesn’t care if it finds a ‘mate’ or not. If anything, the stress the female will go through from having to carry the eggs with her and lay them (they will usually go off food in this time also) will take a huge toll on their body.

And yes, releasing would be highly illegal. Not only are you sending most, if not all the hatchies to their death, you are endangering wild populations


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## Sdaji (May 11, 2018)

Absolutely positively do not release any animals into the wild. It's not just illegal, it's destructive. Releasing animals is generally seen as a noble thing to do, which is a real shame because it's so terrible. Even in almost every case of animal releases after lengthy studies, getting permits, etc etc, it goes bad (in the vast majority of cases, they just die, but sometimes diseases/parasites etc are introduced, inappropriate genetics are introduced, etc etc).

If the habitat is there for the animals to exist in, it already carries as many animals as can survive in that habitat. Adding more simply means they'll either die or they will displace the ones already there. It's not like adding more animals means there will be more wild animals. Even declining populations produce far more babies than their habitat can support.


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