# Stem Cell Research



## motman440 (Sep 2, 2008)

Hey everyone.
at this present time im doing a hsc biology assesment on a form of biotechnology.
I have choosen stem cell research in the spinal cord.
I need to speak about the ethics of the research.

actual opinions from actual people (THATS YOU GUYS) will help my case.

if you could just blurt out what you think i would be greatly appreciative.


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## Earthling (Sep 2, 2008)

As I understand it, wether they used stem cells from the traditional methods (human embryos) or from the newer methods (umbilical cord blood and bone marrow) I say go for it. If your a No voter, go work or befriend a few guys with spinal cord injuries and then see if you have the moral fortitude to still say no.

Oh...also, if someone wants to bring religion into it, thats fine. They dont have to use the medical advancements from this research....just dont force your religion onto all the rest of us. Religion is a personal thing and should be kept that way.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

Im against it. I think we are really seeing science go too far these days. Who are we to play God?


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

Earthling said:


> AIf your a No voter, go work or befriend a few guys with spinal cord injuries and then see if you have the moral fortitude to still say no.



Can you really justify the taking of one life for the sake of making another slightly better?


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## Earthling (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Im against it. I think we are really seeing science go too far these days. Who are we to play God?


 
Play God? Thats only relevant if you think God exists. Also i wonder how antibiotics fits into this playing God gig...and aspirin...artificial limbs, snake morphs........etc..........
What makes you think their is a certain point where you 'play god', and what makes you think its this point and not back at some other advancement of our medical research?


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## Sturdy (Sep 2, 2008)

100% with earthling.. its annoying that the government is still  (edited) over the outlaw of stem cell research.... 

i mean we use organs from dead people... why cant we harvest umbilical cord blood an bone marrow for research,
i think japan are still using aborted human embryos.

an to think all you hear is "recycle! recycle! recycle!"..........so does that apply to the aborted human embryos as well >.>


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## Earthling (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Can you really justify the taking of one life for the sake of making another slightly better?


Yes I can, when the life is a mere few 4 cells old. Not much difference to a sperm or egg not fertilised and grown into an adult human, 4 cells difference. Yet a wasted egg or sperm is not unethical ( unless your a catholic and then see my first post)

Also excess embryos created for introfertilisation could be donated with peoples consent and used for the research. Better then wasting them at the local tip.

Also regarding your 'slightly better' comment.......Gee whiz, have you any idea what a human has to go through who is paralysed from the neck down? Its not nice. Think about it, you cant talk, you cant move a muscle and you say 'slightly better'.... just a massive understatement Im afraid.

All the guys I knew with spinal injuries lived in hope for a medical brekthrough...stem cells or whatever. The right to lifers, religous groups and other reprobates denouncing stem cell research made these guys cringe.
One Quadraplegic used to say "Before you push your ethics onto me, try swapping places with me for the rest of your life and then see if you still think the same way."


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## Chris1 (Sep 2, 2008)

In my opinion theres absolutely nothing wrong with stem cell research,...regardless of where the stem cells come from.

if theyre just throwing an aborted human in the bin, why not use it to enrich someone elses life.


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## dodgie (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Im against it. I think we are really seeing science go too far these days. Who are we to play God?



What disability or sickness do you have?.


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## Kitah (Sep 2, 2008)

This is one topic that I will actually get relatively fired up about, and I'm very opinionated about it; in my honest opinion, it SHOULD be allowed. It would help increase the quality of life of so many unfortunate people, and it has the potential to save many lives. The cloning of organs would save countless lives, with fewer problems than using transplanted organs from other people; no rejection issues, to begin with. Why NOT use embryo's? A lot of people may bring up ethical issues such as its close to murder; it is not. 

I hate it when people get messed up and argue about issues they don't seem to fully understand; another one is practices like mulesing in sheep etc. Anyway I'll get off my high-horse and shuttup before I really start to rant. 

Motman, I wish you much luck with your assessment and hope it goes well for you!


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## redbellybite (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Can you really justify the taking of one life for the sake of making another slightly better?


 GRIM I beg to differ ...untill abortion is made illegal .....which will never happen ....I say that unborn bub is better to give in its short life then to be just dumped ...either way its life is gonna end ,and ,it may as well be used to save a wanted child from disease or illness ,otherwise, its short life was completely worthless... &I find that even more sad about the termination :cry:.......as far as cord blood goes I gave my permission in all 4 births that they could have it ........I think its a good IDEA and anyone doubting ,take alook at your local hospital and go and visit the needy in there you may change your minds.........BUT I dont agree with freak shows either :evil: there has to be a line drawn!


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## weet-bix (Sep 2, 2008)

I agree totally with earthling......I dont see it as playing god. I was 1mm away from being a paraplegic and spent some time in a spinal ward. Not nice, especially when the reason most are there due to accidents. I also as a parent would not have any problem with donating an "extra" embryo. As said above it is a group of a few cells. The righteous buffoons that are against it are, in my opinion ignorant to the reality of the situation.


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## Garry2 (Sep 2, 2008)

Was it right to invent the wheel
As someone who has an illnes I am waiting for research to cure all ills , including mine.

Who has the rite to so NO.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

The fact of the matter is real life people who have the oportunity to develope into full fledged human beings who can think independantly etc. are being murdered for the benefit of others. Dont get me started on abortion this is an issue that is close to my heart. I will never accept murder for any reason.


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## weet-bix (Sep 2, 2008)

Abotion is the removal of a very small group of cells.......it is not murder. Its no different really to to losins a few drops of blood or some skin when you cut yourself. Its the self righteous that put an emotive arguement to it that isnt based on fact.


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

Sturdy said:


> 100% with earthling.. its annoying that the government is still (edited) over the outlaw of stem cell research....
> 
> i mean we use organs from dead people... why cant we harvest umbilical cord blood an bone marrow for research,
> i think japan are still using aborted human embryos.
> ...



At the present moment we do harvest umbilical cord blood. Well, in Victoria anyway. My sister was given that choice when she gave birth to my niece

I have and always will be passionately for stem cell research. Why should we simply destroy unused embryo's left over from IVF treatment when they can be used to further research into curing spinal injuries and a whole host of other debilitating illnesses? I would much rather scientists 'play God' on this issue than do nothing.


As for Abortion, I am quite the Feminist when it comes to this topic. A woman's body, a woman's choice. 

I ask any of you that are strongly opposed to abortion, what if it was a child of rape? Would you have the woman still keep that child, knowing that that child would be a constant reminder of what happened to her?

Every woman has the right to decide when and how to bring a child into this world.


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## djfreshy (Sep 2, 2008)

MURDER?? As its been said they're just embryos. A few cells. If these things can make a person walk again, or heal a disease, i say go for it. Please don't try and say these cells are a human being and can feel pain.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

But it is murder if these are creatures which god has skillfuly created. They were meant to be born.


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## weet-bix (Sep 2, 2008)

Keep fiction out of the arguement please grim.......this is no place for fairy tales.


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## redbellybite (Sep 2, 2008)

weet-bix said:


> Abotion is the removal of a very small group of cells.......it is not murder. Its no different really to to losins a few drops of blood or some skin when you cut yourself. Its the self righteous that put an emotive arguement to it that isnt based on fact.


 have to disagree.....abortion is not only done of embryo /slash cell structure..BUT also done on gestational periods right up till the 19 th week of pregnancy and in cases even further along .....i am not going to judge anyone on this matter as its a personal opinion and each to your own beliefs .....but its not a choice I would make.....


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## djfreshy (Sep 2, 2008)

God skillfully created you too, but go and ask the religions what they think about your lifestyle.


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## weet-bix (Sep 2, 2008)

redbellybite said:


> have to disagree.....abortion is not only done of embryo /slash cell structure..BUT also done on gestational periods right up till the 19 th week of pregnancy and in cases even further along .....i am not going to judge anyone on this matter as its a personal opinion and each to your own beliefs .....but its not a choice I would make.....



My understanding is that the cells they use are not from older embryos......and to have an abortion that late there needs to be some damn good reasons...


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> But it is murder if these are creatures which god has skillfuly created. They were meant to be born.



So you would have that woman suffer and grow to resent and possibly hate her child? Can you imagine the psychological damage that that poor child may endure knowing he was never wanted? That because of a ridiculous draconian law, that is the only reason they're alive. 

It is not murder, they're are merely a group of cells when the child is terminated, they have no distinguishing human features. Most of the time they're not even foetus' yet.

Because I was not skilfully created by God, I was skilfully created by my Mum's gynaecologist, does that now mean I can choose to have an abortion?


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## Hsut77 (Sep 2, 2008)

Imo, religion has no logical place in a scientific debate. Again, in my opinion, religion and science can't co-exist. Steam Cell research is being held back while people suffer and die.


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## Chris1 (Sep 2, 2008)

abortion happens regardless, its not about is abortion ok, its about is it ok to use the cells which are doomed anyway.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

God loves all people equally whether they were born into an unloving family or not. He loves all his children and wants the best for them. The right to life is somthing i bestow on all.


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## cris (Sep 2, 2008)

Hsut77 said:


> Imo, religion has no logical place in a scientific debate. Again, in my opinion, religion and science can't co-exist. Steam Cell research is being held back while people suffer and die.



They can coexist just obviously not as one, just like in a library there is a fiction section and a non fiction section... 

Im all for stem cells research provided they arnt killing live humans that would have lived otherwise, this has never been on the agenda either to my knowledge.


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> God loves all people equally whether they were born into an unloving family or not. He loves all his children and wants the best for them. The right to life is somthing i bestow on all.



Well, as it stands women have the right to choose. I very much doubt that you can bestow the right to life on every Australian woman.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

I dont think i will ever understand you chris1, you love your mindless souless beardies and treat them like kings and queens even if it is detrimental to their health. Yet you are careless when it comes to real human beings who have a soul and will infact grow into people who can understand the world arround them, probably better than you.


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## redbellybite (Sep 2, 2008)

weet-bix said:


> My understanding is that the cells they use are not from older embryos......and to have an abortion that late there needs to be some damn good reasons...


 true weetbix , but there are woman that go about getting one in the second and third tri mester that have nothing wrong with them or bub .just dont want it .....America you can still have third tri mester terminations.. the baby is given a saline injection to which the bub dies and the woman births a still born.........emotional issues on both sides of the coin and like i said i dont agree but am not going to cast a stone at any other woman for her decision in this subject matter ......


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> I dont think i will ever understand you chris1, you love your mindless souless beardies and treat them like kings and queens even if it is detrimental to their health. Yet you are careless when it comes to real human beings who have a soul and will infact grow into people who can understand the world arround them, probably better than you.



And I don't think some people will ever understand your Draconian views on women's rights. 

I find it immensely ironic that you preach like a religious zealot but your signature is 'faith is ignorance'


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## Chris1 (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> I dont think i will ever understand you chris1, you love your mindless souless beardies and treat them like kings and queens even if it is detrimental to their health. Yet you are careless when it comes to real human beings who have a soul and will infact grow into people who can understand the world arround them, probably better than you.



no need to make it personal,..?

my statement was that its ok to use cells which are doomed anyway.

just like i cant understand why thousands of kittens are put down every year but theyre not sold as pet food.

i hate wasteage, stem cells are currently being thrown in the bin when they could be used to help a bunch of people.

btw, the mindless/souless comment is also a matter of opinion, i just happen to like them better than i like most humans.  i love their innocence, humans are evil, which is why i dont plan on breeding myself.
and i dont do anything that is detrimental to their health, well except feed them, but i'm doing my best with the fat girl.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

Im not really making it personal just pointing out how i cannot comprehend your logic sometimes. Are you really suggesting bearded dragons have a soul???

As for not doing anything detrimental, id think letting your beardies free range along with taking certain animals to work is questionable at the least.


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## Chris1 (Sep 2, 2008)

more of a soul than some people,...if you believe in that kinda thing,....

my beardies like to free range, the beardy i took to work for 2 weeks was staying warm for her anti biotics to work. (i actually asked her vet if i should take her and he said that was fine) i learnt my lesson with her upset tummy and make sure she basks if she eats and stopped feeding her those worms. thats 1 problem in 4 years of having beardies,...i dont think u could call that detrimental,.....

are u really suggesting that ALL people have more right to life than animals?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 2, 2008)

CassM said:


> I find it immensely ironic that you preach like a religious zealot but your signature is 'faith is ignorance'


 
LOL! That's all I'll say about that one. Nice work Cass!

Of course the research needs to be done. It is funny (queer, not ha ha) that throughout history, it has always been the church attempting to stifle scientific and medical research. (Please don't ask me to dig up examples, it will only embarass you and annoy me. Accept it, this is not a controversial statement.) If there was a god and this god had a problem with his minions learning the things humans have learned (transplants, genetics, flight, the wheel, quantum theory, etc, etc, etc.), wouldn't he/she have done something about it by now?

Dang, I had so wanted to leave religion out of my mini diatribe. Yes, for the advancement of the species, all of you much more highly educated people out there, please, do the research. I am certain that somewhere down the line I will do something idiotic that will require that I accept treatment based on the aforementioned research, to repair whatever the heck it is that I will invariably do to myself!


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## weet-bix (Sep 2, 2008)

Get back on topic please............Chris1's dubious husbandry has nothing to do with this arguement. Abortion is not the whole issue either. 
Stem cell research is an incredibly valuable thing that should get full support from all governments and the medical fraternity........every person (not bunch of cells) has the right to be given all medical help to live a life to their best potential...........perhaps make a rule that if you dont support it then if you need its benefits you dont get it....


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## DanTheMan (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Can you really justify the taking of one life for the sake of making another slightly better?



You dont realise, its hardly a life
im for it, and im sure if you ended up in a wheel chair that youd think differently about it

I saw one thing on tv a while ago that made me sick, some lady refused it for her daughter because she was religious, her own daughter?!?! over an embryo that isn't a person yet?


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## Earthling (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> God loves all people equally whether they were born into an unloving family or not. He loves all his children and wants the best for them. The right to life is somthing i bestow on all.


 
I see you believe in god very strongly. Good on you. I also appreciate your right to believe ethics as the Bible says. And also practice those ethics as laid down in the bible into your life.

I do not believe in god. My ethics do not use the bible as their base. 

What right do either of us have saying how the other should live their life?

I say live and let live. Dont push your god ethics onto society and I wont push my ethics onto society.
Regarding wether a particular science is ethical should be asked of all the community, not just the religous. 
Then if the particular science goes ahead, people can decide using their own ethical base as to wether they will take part in the benefits of the particular science.

When religion pushes its views into laws that also effect non-religous citizens, is in my view, very unethical.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

I have no problem with the research in general. Its just when this research inpinges on an individuals right for life. Life is a beautiful thing and i beleive murder will never be acceptable regardless. Whats next breeding people for the sole purpose of harvesting their organs or genetically engineering super men. Where do you draw the line????


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## DanTheMan (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> But it is murder if these are creatures which god has skillfuly created. They were meant to be born.



HA!
Dont bring religion into this, its a discussion on FACTS


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## weet-bix (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> I have no problem with the research in general. Its just when this research inpinges on an individuals right for life. Life is a beautiful thing and i beleive murder will never be acceptable regardless. Whats next breeding people for the sole purpose of harvesting their organs or genetically engineering super men. Where do you draw the line????





Nah i think we use pedophiles, rapists and religious zealots......saves time breeding any one for the purpose of organ donation.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

This is a discussion on ethics, do you think there is a metaphisical truth for which we all should obey that does not incorrporate god? There is no denying atheists have no basis for their ethical values. I worry with this increased number of people turning away from god how will our society be run?


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## Chris1 (Sep 2, 2008)

with the amount of religious wars going on, i'd say the world would be a more peaceful place!


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> This is a discussion on ethics, do you think there is a metaphisical truth for which we all should obey that does not incorrporate god? There is no denying atheists have no basis for their ethical values. I worry with this increased number of people turning away from god how will our society be run?



Religion creates wars, segregation etc. or do you not follow current affairs? 

In my personal opinion, religion is a whole bunch of people talking to their imaginary friends.


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## Vat69 (Sep 2, 2008)

In reply to the original thread topic, I did a very quick google search and this http://www.stemcellcentre.edu.au/public-education_links.aspx site looks interesting and could quite possibly lead to some wide statistical data that would be much more useful than asking around here.

Personally I haven't ever really looked into the ethics debate around Stem Cell research so I don't have an opinion on what's currently going on in academic circles. As for my opinion on whether it's ethical, yes I'm pro Stem Cell research. I'm hoping that human cloning will begin in my lifetime.


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## Kathryn_ (Sep 2, 2008)

I am absolutely 100% in favour of stem cell research, having both an amputee and someone with Alzheimer's in my family, and having met many people with spinal cord injuries. I'm hoping to work on it myself one day. I think the concept of giving preference to the life of an embryo over the _quality_ of life of a conscious person is nothing but poor math - the embryo cannot think, feel or experience anything. Somebody with a degenerative neuromuscular condition is in a hell none of us can imagine.


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## cris (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> I worry with this increased number of people turning away from god how will our society be run?



Rationally, without consideration of things that dont have any evidence or logical arguement to support their existance. You are wrong in saying that ppl need to make up gods to have ethics, i personally form my ethics directly from my own understanding of nature. I dont have any fear of some god or mythical creature coming to punish me if i do something "wrong", but there are still police and laws in place to prevent chaos. Religion does do good for many ppl, but it shouldnt impact those that dont believe in it. Some ppl simply cant be religious as they havnt been brainwashed from a young age and cant simply just choose to believe things without evidence.


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## LullabyLizard (Sep 2, 2008)

Stem Cells are the way to go!


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

As a christian i really worry for those who are not. Its somthing i cannot help but do. I fear god will not be so forgiving of those who murder unborn children with out repenting for it. I feel i should do my best to make sure you all understand the wonderful power of christ. Life is worth fighting for!


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> As a christian i really worry for those who are not. Its somthing i cannot help but do. I fear god will not be so forgiving of those who murder unborn children with out repenting for it. I feel i should do my best to make sure you all understand the wonderful power of christ. Life is worth fighting for!



How does your God like you keep snakes? Are they meant to represent the human races fall from grace when Eve took the apple from the apple from the tree?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Sep 2, 2008)

Good on you motman, dont let the religous far right change your mind.
Stem cell research is going to have huge implications in all areas of medicine.
I am all for it.


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## Kathryn_ (Sep 2, 2008)

> As a christian i really worry for those who are not. Its somthing i cannot help but do. I fear god will not be so forgiving of those who murder unborn children with out repenting for it. I feel i should do my best to make sure you all understand the wonderful power of christ. Life is worth fighting for!



That's nice of you, but I don't believe in your God, so I'm not concerned by what you believe he's going to do to me when I die. You (assumedly) don't value my systems of logic, so you aren't concerned by my opinion of how you should be living your life. Our choices and belief systems are really none of one another's business. I'm very glad that you've found a belief system that you feel enriches your life, that's awesome. So have I. So have the billions of people around the world who ascribe to different systems again. We ought all to leave one another in peace, and not intrude on the choices we each wish to make.


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## Vat69 (Sep 2, 2008)

cris said:


> Rationally, without consideration of things that dont have any evidence or logical arguement to support their existance.



Logic changes from culture to culture and from person to person. Grimbeny is using logic in his thoughts, it's just that his logic is different.


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

Vat69 said:


> Logic changes from culture to culture and from person to person. Grimbeny is using logic in his thoughts, it's just that his logic is different.



It doesn't sound very logically to me, it sounds like religious mumbo-jumbo to me. 
Bloody zealots...


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## Vat69 (Sep 2, 2008)

Kathryn_ said:


> That's nice of you, but I don't believe in your God, so I'm not concerned by what you believe he's going to do to me when I die. You (assumedly) don't value my systems of logic, so you aren't concerned by my opinion of how you should be living your life. Our choices and belief systems are really none of one another's business. I'm very glad that you've found a belief system that you feel enriches your life, that's awesome. So have I. So have the billions of people around the world who ascribe to different systems again. We ought all to leave one another in peace, and not intrude on the choices we each wish to make.



I thought this was a debate on ethics.....the whole point is morals and beliefs :lol:


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## Slugga!! (Sep 2, 2008)

There is no doubt in my mind that with time, and funding, stem cell research will offer to be one of the largest stepping stones in combatting a wide renge of 'incurable' diseases....

not to mention the possibilities that they have for our OWN wellbeing.. Just imagine, mum and dad agree for you to have your umbilical stord stored when you are born, 50 years later your kidney/heart/liver (infact any organ- including skin!! - ie burns victims..) decides to shut down... out of the cryogencic freezer come YOUR stem cells, a few months later you have a new heart- your blood type, your organ, zero chance of rejection!!! the technology is there to be doing this stuff- just not the laws and funding (in some countries)... 

Times are a changing, and IMO we would be stupid not to use them, if not for our own good, then the good of every one else...

food for thought- genetically modified crops are taking off and have the potential to produce vast amounts of food compared to what we grow today... would you let them do it, and potentially ease the starvation in third world countries??
thats another post though...

having a science background.... im pretty passionate about stuff like this and cant help putting my view out there


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## Vat69 (Sep 2, 2008)

CassM said:


> It doesn't sound very logically to me, it sounds like religious mumbo-jumbo to me.
> Bloody zealots...



Your capacity to understand it is irrelevant


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## channi (Sep 2, 2008)

As a religious person I will comment as such. I think there is nothing wrong with using stem cells from the placenta or from inseminated eggs done in a science lab. This technology is amazing and has the potential to change the lives of many people and to extend the lives of many people. IMO if God did not what us to use this knowledge we would not have it and the ability to use it would not be present. 
(I am tired of non religious zealots telling me I cannot have an opinion based on my beliefs quit bashing me with your opinions, BTW I would never have bought up religion had i not been told that I was not allowed to early in this thread, this is a free country, for everyone.)


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## cris (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> I feel i should do my best to make sure you all understand the wonderful power of christ. Life is worth fighting for!



.

Having spinal injury myself(hopefully it wont need any new technology to fix), i dont hold a high opinion of those without it trying to deny treatment to those that have similar or sometimes much worse problems. I also know someone who lives in a wheelchair and probably is only still alive because they cant phisically kill themselves. It is extremely selfish to impose your ethics onto other ppl when it means so much suffering, many of these ppl cant choose to believe in Jesus so in your mind are doomed to hell anyway, surely you could find it in your heart(i think thats where religous thought comes from?) to help support giving them a better life while they are here. Then again i suppose God is probably intentionally torturing us as a sick joke or something and we must obviously deserve it as part of the great paln.


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## DanTheMan (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> As a christian i really worry for those who are not. Its somthing i cannot help but do. I fear god will not be so forgiving of those who murder unborn children with out repenting for it. I feel i should do my best to make sure you all understand the wonderful power of christ. Life is worth fighting for!



Haha, but i thought your god loved all people? even Borats neighbour the rapist?
Enough preaching. Sorry if I offend you but personally, i feel sorry for you, you have been brain washed, probably forced on you since you were born, which causes you to look at life through a narrow tunnel, not seeing other sides to life, enjoying life without worrying about jesus perving on you all the time, and miss oportunities to GIVE life, go stem cell research!


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## CassM (Sep 2, 2008)

Having spinal injury myself(hopefully it wont need any new technology to fix), i dont hold a high opinion of those without it trying to deny treatment to those that have similar or sometimes much worse problems. I also know someone who lives in a wheelchair and probably is only still alive because they cant phisically kill themselves. It is extremely selfish to impose your ethics onto other ppl when it means so much suffering, many of these ppl cant choose to believe in Jesus so in your mind are doomed to hell anyway, surely you could find it in your heart(i think thats where religous thought comes from?) to help support giving them a better life while they are here. Then again i suppose God is probably intentionally torturing us as a sick joke or something and we must obviously deserve it as part of the great paln. 

I agree wholeheartedly!!


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## DanTheMan (Sep 2, 2008)

By the way, just wanted to say, because people think its wrong, the original Superman (dont know his name) lead a crap life because of his injuries, which eventually killed him. 
He sat in a wheelchair, paralysed so bad that he couldn't swallow, or even BREATH without a machine doing it for him.


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## Vat69 (Sep 2, 2008)

*lights a torch and grabs a pitchfork* That's it I'm off to Grimbeny's tower. Who's with me? With the power of science we shall smite thee!!


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## norris (Sep 2, 2008)

Skinner - "I'm telling you people, the earth revolves around the sun!" 

Abe - "Burn him!"


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## cris (Sep 2, 2008)

norris said:


> Skinner - "I'm telling you people, the earth revolves around the sun!"
> 
> Abe - "Burn him!"



Sums up the arguement quite well i think, good call.


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## Slugga!! (Sep 2, 2008)

haha, well put!


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## Stitched (Sep 2, 2008)

DanTheMan said:


> By the way, just wanted to say, because people think its wrong, the original Superman (dont know his name) lead a crap life because of his injuries, which eventually killed him.
> He sat in a wheelchair, paralysed so bad that he couldn't swallow, or even BREATH without a machine doing it for him.


 
Christopher Reeve i think


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## Clairebear (Sep 2, 2008)

i agree with stem cell research... the good it could do for so many! I don't think they are planning on killing anyone for it. If babies are aborted anyway (i simply couldn't abort a child if i found out i were having one, but i won't judge those who do) i see the benefit of using them, but if they can do it from umbilical cords etc. that's fantastic and i will donate mine if/when i have kids. 

Surely even religious people can't be against umbilical cords being used... i mean it's not much to ask for the potential to save lives! I respect religion (everyone's, not just christianity), but with all the benefits this research could have, this is something that it would be silly to ignore!


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## Stitched (Sep 2, 2008)

Earthling said:


> I see you believe in god very strongly. Good on you. I also appreciate your right to believe ethics as the Bible says. And also practice those ethics as laid down in the bible into your life.
> 
> I do not believe in god. My ethics do not use the bible as their base.
> 
> ...


 
***Best post of the thread IMO

On the stem cell research topic, i believe that the potential benefits far outweigh the moral concerns concerns of the minorites, but such research and development needs to be scrutinised and controlled when further advanced, to avoid so called 'designer babies' and such. The benefits for treatment of existing disabilites and injuries is whats sways me.
IMO


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## Darbs (Sep 2, 2008)

Ethics don't rely on the bible, any holy publication or a god (real or imagined). History has shown this. 
In regard to stem cells and drawing lines it is too late, it will happen. For the record I'm in favor of it.


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## DanTheMan (Sep 2, 2008)

Earthling said:


> Then if the particular science goes ahead, people can decide using their own ethical base as to wether they will take part in the benefits of the particular science.



Trouble is, religious people don't want to hear other opinions, there's is right, and that's that, a fiction book said so!
Not all though, just most from what Iv seen.


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

Who are we to play god? We're the only bloody ones who are going to! I don't see god coming down and handing us all the medical technology we need to care for each other. If god won't play god, it's up to us! What a ridiculous notion 'Who are we to play god?'! If we as humans have the ability to do something, aren't we playing human? If we can do what only god can do, then we are gods. We're the closest thing to gods which we've ever come across outside of fiction.

Why the heck shouldn't we do whatever we can to advance ourselves? If your god wants us to leave everything to him, well, you're welcome to follow him and go live naked in a forest somewhere. Get off your computer (who are we to play god, harnessing electricity, refining metals and polycarbonates, etc etc?), stop eating any farmed foods, forget everything you know about language, live as an animal and the rest of us who are playing human get on with it.

If your god doesn't want us to do whatever we can to be as happy and healthy as possible, and he/she/it isn't going to do it him/her/itself, to Hell with him/her/it. If your god is so upset about us playing with a few microscopic cells, then tell your god to get off its **** and do something.

Stem cell research has the potential to make people walk again, to regrow organs, to hear scars, to do so much to help people. I am not cruel enough to say anything other than 'I am entirely for it'.


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## Earthling (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> This is a discussion on ethics, do you think there is a metaphisical truth for which we all should obey that does not incorrporate god? There is no denying atheists have no basis for their ethical values. I worry with this increased number of people turning away from god how will our society be run?


 
No denying? NO DENYING? If your priest is feeding you this, start questioning now! LOOK!


http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/SocialScien...ALITY_VALUES/Religion_Morality_Autonomous.htm

_These studies begin to provide empirical support for the idea that like other psychological faculties of the mind, including language and mathematics, we are endowed with a moral faculty that guides our intuitive judgments of right and wrong, interacting in interesting ways with the local culture. These intuitions reflect the outcome of millions of years in which our ancestors have lived as social mammals, and are part of our common inheritance, as much as our opposable thumbs are._
_These facts are incompatible with the story of divine creation. Our evolved intuitions do not necessarily give us the right or consistent answers to moral dilemmas. What was good for our ancestors may not be good for human beings as a whole today, let alone for our planet and all the other beings living on it. But insights into the changing moral landscape [e.g., animal rights, abortion, euthanasia, international aid] have not come from religion, but from careful reflection on humanity and what we consider a life well lived. In this respect, it is important for us to be aware of the universal set of moral intuitions so that we can reflect on them and, if we choose, act contrary to them. We can do this without blasphemy, because it is our own nature, not God, that is the source of our species morality... _


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## Darbs (Sep 2, 2008)

Are you sure about that evolution thing? Millions of years?


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## DDALDD (Sep 2, 2008)

Darbs said:


> Are you sure about that evolution thing? Millions of years?



That is guaranteed to take this thread off topic. If this is a thread on morals and ethics then discussing where they come from is fair game, start a new thread if you plan on going in totally different direction


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## DanTheMan (Sep 2, 2008)

EXTREMELY well put Sdaji!
Agree with you completely, "god" certainly isn't doing anything, im not going to do the same and wait for some mythical being to sort all the worlds problems out, so far, he's done a pretty crap job!

So please, no more stories, stick to the facts.


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## Darbs (Sep 2, 2008)

Sorry, thats a fair reprimand.


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## euphorion (Sep 2, 2008)

i dont have a problem with it, i think the potential for research and medical advancement is a great incentive. but being atheist i see nothing 'wrong' (and i use that term loosely) with it at all. 

just to throw my opinion out there, i think that seeing as how there is such great potential for medical advancement through stem cell research the only morally or ehtically 'correct' choice of action involves utilising this potential, as opposed to saying 'bleh God this bleh evil that, bleh right to life this and playing with things we dont understand that...' hullo vivisection anyone?

good on your for choosing such a controversial topic, a wonderful way to open the mind!


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## Dipcdame (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm usually dead set against messing with nature, she usually has a wonderful way of coming back and biting you in the backside, REAL hard!!!! But with this, done ethically, I really cant see whats wrong with it, it can only do good from what I can see, religion should keep it'self to itself and butt out................it's good for some things, except the well being of the people themselves (I cite a particular splinter group that refuses blood transfusions and organ donations). Refusing stem cell research is almost like that!!!!!! 
If you have religious ideals about this, fine, go sit and huddle together, don't try and stop others from trying to help and do good for the community as a whole.


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## FAY (Sep 2, 2008)

Stitched said:


> Christopher Reeve i think



The original Superman was George Reeves.


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2008)

GARTHNFAY said:


> The original Superman was George Reeves.



no, 'I' was the original Superman. 8)


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## Kathryn_ (Sep 2, 2008)

> If babies are aborted anyway (i simply couldn't abort a child if i found out i were having one, but i won't judge those who do) i see the benefit of using them



Just to clear this up, the "babies" that are used for stem cell research are either unused, frozen embryos left over from IVF treatments for infertility that are used with the consent of the egg donor and the couple, or in countries where it's legal, are created from donated eggs that are intended specifically for stem cell research - I tried to find out about doing this in Australia, and while it's not technically illegal, it's not currently possible. The embryos are terminated at 14 days, which is (usually) long before any woman would even know she was pregnant, let alone have an abortion. Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware, aborted embryos simply can't be used for this sort of thing, legally or practically.


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## pythonmum (Sep 2, 2008)

I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone pointed out that stem cells do not necessarily come from a foetus or embryo? Research using excess IVF embryos is less controversial than that using aborted foetal material. Most current research uses adult stem cells because it is less difficult to get ethical approval. Yes, embryonic stem cells are pluripotential (=can become anything), but current research aims to induce this state in adult cells. In addition, some sorts of stem cells (blood cells) can be harvested from cord blood collected after the birth of a baby, a widely accepted practice.

With regard to your HSC, this sort of discussion is NOT what the markers are looking for. You are better off naming particular groups who have an opinion and exploring why they take that stance. You should also specify what kind of stem cells you are talking about in your response. (e.g. Roman catholics are opposed to research on embryonic stem cells because the Church is opposed to abortion.) An outline of the issues (or lack thereof) with different sources of stem cells would be appropriate.


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

pythonmum said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone pointed out that stem cells do not necessarily come from a foetus or embryo? Research using excess IVF embryos is less controversial than that using aborted foetal material. Most current research uses adult stem cells because it is less difficult to get ethical approval. Yes, embryonic stem cells are pluripotential (=can become anything), but current research aims to induce this state in adult cells. In addition, some sorts of stem cells (blood cells) can be harvested from cord blood collected after the birth of a baby, a widely accepted practice.
> 
> With regard to your HSC, this sort of discussion is NOT what the markers are looking for. You are better off naming particular groups who have an opinion and exploring why they take that stance. You should also specify what kind of stem cells you are talking about in your response. (e.g. Roman catholics are opposed to research on embryonic stem cells because the Church is opposed to abortion.) An outline of the issues (or lack thereof) with different sources of stem cells would be appropriate.



C'mon, don't point out that the opinions of folks on a reptile forum are worthless! :lol: There's too much scope for people to put on the silly religious freak act, and others to go nuts at them


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2008)

Are you accusing me of 'putting on' an act sdaji??? HOW RUDE


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Are you accusing me of 'putting on' an act sdaji??? HOW RUDE



I didn't mention any names, grimbeny. Why? Got something to confess to?


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## BlindSnake (Sep 2, 2008)

Stem cells can also be found in teeth and in the iris in adults.
As for religion, it's just a way to unite and control the massess. (and make a fat stack while doing it)

The gods have gone home..


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## channi (Sep 2, 2008)

:shock::shock:


> Jesus is the anti christ? dun Dun DUN!!!


 grimbeny.:shock::shock::lol::lol::lol:suckers


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## Fuscus (Sep 2, 2008)

Bring it on. I want a new set of teeth


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## weet-bix (Sep 3, 2008)

My understanding is too that they cant use the majority of aborted embryos as the abortion process basically mangles them leaving nothing in one piece.


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## Hetty (Sep 3, 2008)

Leigh said:


> no, 'I' was the original Superman. 8)



On the contrary, Stalin was the 'man of steel', Superman is just communist propaganda.


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