# A little sad and frustrating...



## Ninjaette (Oct 8, 2008)

I hope this isn't too controversial for this forum - but I wanted to know how many people here think its alright if someone chooses not to have children...
I've always known that I didn't want kids - though I'm feeling so much pressure from other people to have them - I'm now 30 so its not like I've got years work it out. Doesn't help that everyone and their best friend are having babies!


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## missllama (Oct 8, 2008)

i no people who think its wrong to bring kids into this world...
its up to u mate
dont do something u dont want to do!


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## Recharge (Oct 8, 2008)

I never had children, never wanted them either.. don't let people pressure you, I think lot of parents suffer from a mental disorder, once they have children, they simply MUST try to make every one else too.. ;P

having children when you don't want them, simply raises the risk of an abused or neglected child down the road, sometimes, this is the reverse tho, some simply never realised they would benefit, but not every one does, if you don't particularly want them, don't have them


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## Dan19 (Oct 8, 2008)

Do what you think is right.
Edited for the kids.


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## weet-bix (Oct 8, 2008)

This is one of the most deeply personal topics and it is entirely your choice...........do what you really feel is right for you.


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## Jewly (Oct 8, 2008)

I wish I had decided not to have a child..lol

Seriously though, do what you think feels right for you. You can't live your life trying to please other people.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks guys for all your opinions! I'm soooooo glad that herpers are still, the most sensible people I know 
Why have kids when you can have snakes/monitors/geckos/dragons/skinks/turtles/frogs/other critters? :lol:


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## the.badger (Oct 8, 2008)

If you don't want them and your partner doesn't want them, don't have them. There are enough kids in the world as it is. And definately don't feel pressured into a quick decision due to your age! If you change your mind a few years down the track and you're too old to have kids biologically, there are plenty of other options including adoption and foster caring.

New parents are a bit freaky like that though aren't they! I think because kids take up such a huge part of your life they can't remember what life was like without them, and because of that can't relate to people who don't have them.


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## JasonL (Oct 8, 2008)

You can have my two, but no returning them if you don't like them.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 8, 2008)

You're right - new parents _are_ really freaky! I can see where they're coming from though, having a kid is such a monumental event in someone's life... Don't get me wrong, I'm super happy for everyone I know who have had babies recently - parenthood is just not for me. I think its really unfair that there is this unspoken expectation that women aren't worthy until they give birth! 
I also agree, there are too many kids in the world as it is.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 8, 2008)

LMFAO JasonL. Gotta love a 'no return' policy :lol:


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## Noongato (Oct 8, 2008)

My little blob decided for itself apparently 6 weeks ago, Only just found out, and I have decided to keep...
I wonder what kind of hell i just admitted myself to?

Never let anyone pressure you into a life changing decision though, it is your choise and yours alone.


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## sigridshurte (Oct 8, 2008)

it's upto you, your the one who will have to live with the decision you make  good luck choosing


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## Ramsayi (Oct 8, 2008)

Have one...........Be able to get a huge plasma telly with the bonus.Or more herps.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 8, 2008)

I cant stand kids, nothing enjoyable about them, snotty little turds, haha, All they do is cause stress, cry all night, crap them selves, vomit on you. Whats enjoyable about that? (I know there is a few up sides, but I ignore them, they dont balance out) and then they hit their teens, and they are still little ****s. Actually, all stages of life until they finally grow up, some times 18 (in my case) and older with most.
They cost alot of money, just to bring you misery. I have never met a kid that I like.


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## Dipcdame (Oct 8, 2008)

TO BE ................... OR NOT TO BE............ THAT......... is the question........ and it's a matter of personal choice.......... if you don't, then YOU DON;T......... it's entirely up to you, NO ONE ELSE!!!!!!! I have 3 kids and they make my life whole, but htis isn't for everyone.................. YOU DO WHAT .................. YOU ................. WANT TO DO................ your life..........your choice...... no one else has to go through it with you, so you make yur own decision forget waht everyone else thinks they should have done with their lives, or cause they've done the wrong thing for them, don't let them ruin your choice for you.


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## Fiona74 (Oct 8, 2008)

DanTheMan said:


> I cant stand kids, nothing enjoyable about them, snotty little turds, haha, All they do is cause stress, cry all night, crap them selves, vomit on you. Whats enjoyable about that? (I know there is a few up sides, but I ignore them, they dont balance out) and then they hit their teens, and they are still little ****s. Actually, all stages of life until they finally grow up, some times 18 (in my case) and older with most.
> They cost alot of money, just to bring you misery. I have never met a kid that I like.


 Aw, you shouldn't be so down on yourself Dan, just cos thats what _you_ were like as a kid doesn't mean they all are.


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## snake_boy (Oct 8, 2008)

do what ya wanna do. dont let people push you round or pressure you into anything!


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## Hetty (Oct 8, 2008)

DanTheMan said:


> I cant stand kids, nothing enjoyable about them, snotty little turds, haha, All they do is cause stress, cry all night, crap them selves, vomit on you. Whats enjoyable about that?



Yeah, I don't like that idea much myself. When I have a kid or kids, I'm going to make my partner look after it/them (hehe, 'it') until it/they are at a 'good' age, I think I could tolerate a three year old if it were my own.


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## cracksinthepitch (Oct 8, 2008)

I think its the same with anything else in life... If your heart isn't in it dont do it.They are a massive life changing experience that you need to be prepared for mentally, financially did i mention MENTALLY and physically. Think of all the money you will have if you dont have kids$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Hope you dont mind but here's my two


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## Fennwick (Oct 8, 2008)

if you don't want kids, then don't have them. just love the cold blooded kids you already have


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## Slytherin (Oct 8, 2008)

Its your choice and nobody has the right to pressure you. I do know what you mean though, its painted as the "right thing" or "normal" in our society especially by the media. 

I think it is fantastic that you have made the decision and thought it through. I also made the choice that I'm not a 'kid person' and don't want to have any of my own. My 'dependants' are my animals and they make me happy and full, especially Snakey!


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## ravan (Oct 8, 2008)

i have absolutely no intention of having children. this has just been reiterated by the behaviour of my siblings tonight. I'd much rather have animal babies. they dont talk back or make trouble and are much easier to care for


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## nightowl (Oct 8, 2008)

As most have said, it's your choice.... Just don't (_and I don't believe you would_) have a kid for the money. 

So many younger females around here are pumping out kids like there's no tomorrow... just to get that money. The babies are the ones that will suffer and it isn't fair on them. My daughter was one of them, her baby died at 3 months of age and instead of paying for his funeral she bought a car with the baby bonus and $2500 bereavement money ..... left the bill for relo's to pay.


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## notechistiger (Oct 8, 2008)

What I really hate, is when your own _mother_ tells you, adamantly, that you *will* have kids. I don't want kids- having a three year old brother has taught me that. I don't enjoy looking after them, I don't enjoy their company, so it's hard when people tell you it's envitable that you will have them. Or at least, want them.

What's worse, is that my aunty used to be a real cat person. She loved her cats. Then she had a baby, and suddenly all her cats were outside animals and never seen because she didn't want them near her "baby". Isn't that a scary thought? That kids and the hormones they bring _can_ bring about a sudden... dislike for your animals? That kids can make them take the back seat?


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## the.badger (Oct 8, 2008)

nightowl said:


> As most have said, it's your choice.... Just don't (_and I don't believe you would_) have a kid for the money.
> 
> So many younger females around here are pumping out kids like there's no tomorrow... just to get that money. The babies are the ones that will suffer and it isn't fair on them. My daughter was one of them, her baby died at 3 months of age and instead of paying for his funeral she bought a car with the baby bonus and $2500 bereavement money ..... left the bill for relo's to pay.



Jeez, that's a sad story in so many ways. I'm sorry :cry:


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## BlindSnake (Oct 8, 2008)

You should have one.. you never know when you might need a kidney. Your very own organ bank!

Im thinking of having one, buying an albino darwin with the bonus..

Then I will sell the kid too. You rekon I could get enough for it to buy a breeding pair of albino olives??
Which country would pay the most? or maybe madonna needs another kid..hmmmmmm


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## funcouple (Oct 8, 2008)

hey its your choise. if you dont want kids, dont have them. stand your ground. i love all my kids, but knowing what i know now, if i had my life over again i wouldnt have kids. there is alot of enjoyment in watching your child grow. but theres also alot of heart ache. if you were to have just 1 kid u will be tied down for at least 15 years. give it alot of thought and remember its your choise, and only your choise.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks again everyone for all your opinions and support! If only everyone were so open minded..
Nightowl that is such a sad thing to have happen. I'm really sorry too 
I'm sensible enough to NOT have a kid just for the money. IMHO the baby bonus really isn't such a great thing - the money will run out eventually but the kid stays around for a lot longer!


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 8, 2008)

DanTheMan said:


> I cant stand kids, nothing enjoyable about them, snotty little turds, haha, All they do is cause stress, cry all night, crap them selves, vomit on you. Whats enjoyable about that? (I know there is a few up sides, but I ignore them, they dont balance out) *and then they hit their teens, and they are still little ****s. Actually, all stages of life until they finally grow up, some times 18 (in my case) - try some thing like 30 or 40 by the sounds of it - *and older with most.
> They cost alot of money, just to bring you misery. I have never met a kid that I like.


 
seems your parents are still suffering!!! there is no need to be that harsh!!


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 8, 2008)

I think that some people are to made to be parents - and there is nothing wrong with that. If you feel you don't want kids then don't have them it does not mean you wont have a good life or that you will miss out, you will just lead a different life to that of a parent . I have a few friend who are loving aunties but don't have kids and they are happy.
Do what is right for you and your partner - and don't allow any one to make you feel pressured in to something that is not what you want.
Jusat have herps


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## blackthorn (Oct 8, 2008)

I don't particularly want kids, I don't know if I'll feel the same in 10yrs time, but right now I don't even want to think about it. A friend of mine had a kid when she was 17, I can't even imagine having a kid now, let alone having one a few years ago at my age... I think having children is too expensive as well, it's hard enough affording houses and cars and everything else let alone raising a child or children as well. I just treat my pets like children and it seems to work.


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## Tatelina (Oct 8, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> Have one...........Be able to get a huge plasma telly with the bonus.Or more herps.



Hahahahaha....


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## Tanith (Oct 8, 2008)

I have four kids. Almost all of them are grown, the youngest is 17. At 38, I have gray hair, high blood pressure, artheritis an ulcer, and I'm over weight. And I can actually blame this on my kids!! I didn't realize when I had them, they would spend the next 20 years trying to kill me! I have discovered the rewarding part of parenthood everyone spoke of: Grandkids. When my son calls home to say, "Mom, this kid is driving me nuts! Do you have any idea what he did? When does this blessing of parenthood start?" and I respond, "oh... about now." 
If I could have bypassed parent and gone straight to grandparent, it would have been great. 
It takes alot of courage these days to defend your right to not parent. (Sad state of affairs, isn't it?)

Tell you what. Someone gives you flack about having a baby, you tell them, "Are you going to raise it?" When they say no, you can ask them why they would think you would want to.
Not their uterus, not their life, not their problem. Straight up.

Congratulations on knowing what you want and sticking to it!


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## notechistiger (Oct 9, 2008)

Very well said, Tanith. And I just realised you have a lot of animals! Lol.


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## Tanith (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks. Yeah, we have a regular zoo around here. Wouldn't trade it for the world, though. They behave much better than any of the two leggers I've raised. LOL


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## daniel1234 (Oct 9, 2008)

Tanith said:


> Tell you what. Someone gives you flack about having a baby, you tell them, "Are you going to raise it?" When they say no, you can ask them why they would think you would want to.
> Not their uterus, not their life, not their problem. Straight up.


 
So true. I have two and all I do is worry about them. In this day and age nothing is black and white, and many of my immergrated friends say us westerners have got child rearing wrong. I also know people who have made the same choice as you. I also know people who have them for finacial gains, and did we all know this is what would result from the baby bonus when Holier than thou Howard anounced it--well I did.

You need to be sure about the choices you make, and you sound like you are sure about your choice. If you change it change it for you, no one else.


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## channi (Oct 9, 2008)

I have two kids and would love to have a couple more. But I am totally supportive of my friends and others who don't want to have any. It is rediculous (sp.) for any person to put pressure on another to have a child. This is not a short term or half a**ed commitment, it takes up the majority of your time for the majority of your life and the majority of your money and nobody should have any say on whether or not you choose to take on that commitment. I commend you for not caving in to the pressures of society and staying true to your own self and not bringing an unwanted baby into the world.


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## gman78 (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm getting on now too and finding that all my friends either have or are having kids.
Mind you i don't know where i'd find the time with all my snakes and dogs


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## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> Thanks guys for all your opinions! I'm soooooo glad that herpers are still, the most sensible people I know
> Why have kids when you can have snakes/monitors/geckos/dragons/skinks/turtles/frogs/other critters? :lol:


 
That is my sentiment exactly Ninjaette. Your decision is you decision but you are definately not alone. I'm 34 and the folks, my sis, alot of people harass me regularly about me not wanting kids. At the end of the day you just have to do what YOU feel is right!


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## Retic (Oct 9, 2008)

Having children was the absolute best thing we ever did but it's a personal choice.


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## Wench (Oct 9, 2008)

all my mates are pretty much just getting engaged to their long term boyfriends and a few ppl have started popping out kids... my mother is adament about getting kids and a son in law out of me. everytime i see her shes like "sooo.. hows the boyfriend... are you moving in together yet" bla bla bla...

little does she knows, i hate kids. i never want kids. ive never been clucky when ive seen a baby. whenever i hear a baby cry my heart rate jumps and i have small anxiety attacks lol. THAT and ive heard wayyy to many sad stories, and i know i couldn't cope with losing something like that. i get attached to things very easily.

i think its a personal choice though.. and i know what ya mean with pressure.. im starting to feel the pinch now everyone is planning weddings and when they plan on having babies and stuff and i'll be pushing it if i have a relationship still in a few months time  im so flighty.


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## ClareB (Oct 9, 2008)

I think everyone is right, the choice is yours to make. We have two children and they are the best things in our lives but I know that children aren't for everyone. The only thing I would say to you is that you only get one chance at life, you only get one go round so whatever you do make the most of it, whether you want children or not.


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## wiz-fiz (Oct 9, 2008)

if you don't want 1 don't have 1. and if your current age is gonna make you decide to have 1 then i'll tell you this my mum had my bro when she was 40!


Will


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## wiz-fiz (Oct 9, 2008)

Tanith said:


> I have four kids. Almost all of them are grown, the youngest is 17. At 38, I have gray hair, high blood pressure, artheritis an ulcer, and I'm over weight. And I can actually blame this on my kids!! I didn't realize when I had them, they would spend the next 20 years trying to kill me! I have discovered the rewarding part of parenthood everyone spoke of: Grandkids. When my son calls home to say, "Mom, this kid is driving me nuts! Do you have any idea what he did? When does this blessing of parenthood start?" and I respond, "oh... about now."
> If I could have bypassed parent and gone straight to grandparent, it would have been great.
> It takes alot of courage these days to defend your right to not parent. (Sad state of affairs, isn't it?)
> 
> ...


 



thats some good advice especially the part about asking som1 if they're gonna raise it.


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## slim6y (Oct 9, 2008)

Practise makes perfect, and if you don't think they're going to be perfect, just keep on practising....


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you once again everyone for your opinions and words of support - and particularly Tanith for her brilliant words of advice 
I feel slightly less guilty about my choice now, even though it still kills me that it is going to affect the lives of people I love and care about - strangely enough my own mum isn't fussed about whether I have kids or not - but my bf's mother desperately wants a grandchild and she doesn't know that she's not going to get one from me 
When I think about her, my thoughts are that I should just step aside and let my bf find someone who will have kids with him - just quietly I think he would like to be a father - and living in a small town as we do, there are plenty of young unteruses around that would be more than adequate for the task!


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## Soldiers_Girl (Oct 9, 2008)

I think it is very much a personal choice, as long as you have discussed it with your partner and he agrees with your decision and isn't going to be changing his mind 5 years down the track then don't worry about it.

My husband does not want children, never has, I am the one that wants them, although it goes against what he wants in life, he is considering giving me a child because he knows how much I want them. This has being an on going discussion for 2 years, and not something that is going to change right away.

Just make sure you have your partners support as he is the only one that really matters!!!


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 9, 2008)

I think from reading this that there are a few parents that should not have had their kids as they seem to hate them!! I understand everyone has individual choices but gee so many HATE kids, they may cause stress but to HATE them is just sad!! 
I think life is easier with out kids, stress less - more money hahaha - Im with slim6y on this  practice hahaha.
Im pretty sure there would be some women out there with their 10 kids who have had enough to make up for the women who dont want any  - you should never feel guilty for the way you feel


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## zeke22 (Oct 9, 2008)

*no children*

I am so glad that other people feel the same! i dont think you should have them if you dont want them. and i 2 get angry with other women, why do they all assume because we are female we will have children? i get so angry when they make comments like "oh when you get married and have kids" i actually can't stand them to the point that i avoid most situations where people have children and babies are worse. i actually have the reaction of them making me feel repulsed. i dont think i am normal lol  my probelm is though having a bf that does one day want them. and its hard because at the moment i am sure that i never want them, but what if things dont change? do you let that person go or what? its a tough situation.


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## Emzie (Oct 9, 2008)

i think its your choice its your body!

im the opposit im 19 and dying to have a baby and everyones keeps telling me im to young, which i am and not not going to have one till im finical secure but I really want one


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## stripe (Oct 9, 2008)

youve definitely made a good choice. nothing worse than bringing a child into the world that you dont want. it'd mess with your life, and if the kid grows up knowing you didn't want it it would probably be a wreck too.. so its good for everyone  except maybe your boyfriends mum but she can gtfo 

I personally love kids though. maybe cause i dont really know any evil brat ones.. ehh, still can't wait til im old and ready for a kid


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## RedEyeGirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Nightowl i'm so sorry. As for everyone it is your choice if you want a child or not.Good luck 1 way or another!


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you 

Something that has always perplexed me has been the fact that we who keep herps and other wildlife have to pay for a license to keep them, and have to justify to the authorities that we are worthy of having them - and yet *any one* can have a kid, no questions asked?!! 
I believe by keeping and breeding and thereby perpetuating our precious native fauna that we are contributing to the preservation of their species - of which there are so few left in the wild - which in turn is benefiting our planet in some small way. Perpetuating the human race might not be as beneficial - though I guess this depends on how you raise your young... I only wish people knew how monumental a responsibility it is to be a parent, and that the people in power made more of an effort to educate people about these responsibilities so that everyone makes informed choices when it comes to parenthood, oh and that people aren't ostracised or looked down upon if they decided not to have children.


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## moosenoose (Oct 9, 2008)

DanTheMan said:


> I cant stand kids, nothing enjoyable about them, snotty little turds, haha, All they do is cause stress, cry all night, crap them selves, vomit on you. Whats enjoyable about that? (I know there is a few up sides, but I ignore them, they dont balance out) and then they hit their teens, and they are still little ****s. Actually, all stages of life until they finally grow up, some times 18 (in my case) and older with most.
> They cost alot of money, just to bring you misery. I have never met a kid that I like.



I sincerely hope my kids don't have to care for you in your old age if any of them decide to take up nursing, or pay taxes to help keep the country afloat and keep your pension paid. But of course we’ll all do fine if nobody has snotty little turds to help carry the country  

There is plenty more benefits than negatives to kids IMHO. I have 3 of them. Absolutely delightful kids! My eldest is 13 and I love them all dearly. But saying this I wouldn’t pressure anyone to start their own family, it’s a personal choice. Yet at the same time I don’t want to hear from people their excuses as to why they don’t want them or ridicule those who do. If you want kids, have them, but by having them it’s a massive lifetime commitment. Clearly many parents are out of their depth these days with bringing up their kids and the social problems that are arising as a result of this are escalating at an alarming rate. Some people don’t deserve the ones they already have (probably because they never genuinely wanted them in the first place!). Good luck with whatever road you choose. you should always do what makes you happy in this life, as you've only got one shot at it.


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## leighroyaus (Oct 9, 2008)

dont be such a wuss.
do what you want yourself not what others want you to do
bloody sheep in this world


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## jessb (Oct 9, 2008)

I have a gorgeous 3.5 yo daughter (born when I was 26) and I adore being a mum even more than I thought possible. Our little girl (sorry, BIG girl) is funny, smart, loving and really entertaining! I had a difficult pregnancy which is why we only have one, but I am being _strongly_ encouraged to have a second bub in the next couple of years. 

So I can completely sympathise with the external pressure you are under from family and friends to get pregnant! It is completely your decision, and it is, of course, up to you to choose whether you want to have kids now, or ever. We are lucky enough to live in a developed country where women are able to choose to delay or forgo pregnancy and still be valued, contributing members of society.

That said, I know lots of women who get to their 40s and realise they have left it too late and then go through years of invasive, painful and emotionally debilitating fertility treatments, or live the rest of their life regretting their decision. I think it has to be a decison that is made between you and your partner, ignoring any external influences (both positive and negative).


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## Camo (Oct 9, 2008)

Jewly said:


> I wish I had decided not to have a child..lol
> 
> Seriously though, do what you think feels right for you. You can't live your life trying to please other people.


I would love to see you tell your child that one. Lol.


Ramsayi said:


> Have one...........Be able to get a huge plasma telly with the bonus.Or more herps.


More and more it seems people are having a baby just for the bonus. I see them all the time. I work in Mayfield, NSW and for those of you that know what mayfield is like you will get my point.

Cameron


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## Mz-Froggy (Oct 9, 2008)

Lmfao Dan

Well i have 4 kids, 2 girls & 2 boys,

I had my last son at 29 yo and i think that's toooooooo old !

Better to have them when your younger, they can grow up with you then, I had my 1st daughter at 21yo

1 of my friends who is 41, she wanted to have a baby 2 yrs ago, 

I said, your an idiot ! I said, "WHAT" look at it this way ok, Your going to be 40 and have a 1 yo, ok then in 9 yrs time you will be 50 OMG, and you want a kid, who will be 10yo, where you going to get all the energy, patience etc from

She sees what i go thru with my lot & now NEVER wants to have kids, YAY :d

She got a cat instead 

If i could do it all again, i would maybe have 1 !

My kids are now 16yo, 13yo, 10yo, nearly 8 yo

Now they are getting older YIPEEEEEEEE lol

There's LIFE after kids, and i look forward to day there's peace & quite at home 

Just me & my pets 

But that's still a many years away tho ! 

I have leant alot being a mum, so i'm gratefull for that !

There's good days & bad days in life, with or without kids !

My kids are full on, but LOVE them heaps :d

Hey we all have choices Ninjaette, BE WISE & SMART :d, 

P.S. Don't know if they really get better when they get older !

? Ever heard of KIPPERS ???? lol

* Remember WE were all KIDS once !


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## boxhead (Oct 9, 2008)

Do what's right for you .
I love kids . other people's . when your sick off them you give them back . ha ha.


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## missllama (Oct 9, 2008)

BlindSnake said:


> Which country would pay the most? or maybe madonna needs another kid..hmmmmmm



LMAO snake thats gold, i think that lady should be more worried about grandkids at her age then babies


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm so happy that there are people who have kids on this forum who think that they are the best thing that ever happened to them. I know when people say that that they truly love their children and this pretty much guarantees that the child is going to be in happy, loving surroundings.
I however, cannot guarantee that a child I have is going to have that unconditional love and support that I think all children deserve. That and the fact that I have some really defective genes that I don't want to pass on to anyone. If I were to have a child it would only be to make other people happy. I think these are three very serious arguments against me reproducing!


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## ClareB (Oct 9, 2008)

I think your great for making your decision and not just doing what you think you should for someone else. Having said that maybe one day you will change your mind. I just think never say never. 
I myself hate the baby bonus, it encourages people to have kids for the wrong reasons. Give it to people as vouchers for nappies, formula, kids clothes whatever just not cash. I have two children ( that I very much adore) the eldest 2 1/2 and the youngest 6 months and their baby bonus money is still sitting in an account in their names. We aren't made of money by any means but I'd just feel funny spending it, I had children because I wanted them not because someone was going to give me money.


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## Chris1 (Oct 9, 2008)

i'm 34 and still dont like them,..i have another 6 years to think about it before my ovaries dry up,...but i doubt its gonna happen,...!! 

the only reason i considered considering it for a very short period of time was for mum, but when i told her she was the only reason she said not to bother,..


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

LOL for some reason the image of my ovaries shriveling up like raisins kinda makes me laugh!


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## wiz-fiz (Oct 9, 2008)

missllamathuen said:


> LMAO snake thats gold, i think that lady should be more worried about grandkids at her age then babies


 

are you saying 50 year olds should have grandkids by that time?


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 9, 2008)

If you don't want kids, don't have them. I hope you don't begrudge those that do though! todays children will be the doctors and nurses who look after us in our old age, the politicians that write the policies that affect our standards of living etc. Really though, it's your choice. 

That said, (and slightly off topic) I don't believe people who postpone parenthood for their convenience should be allowed to access IVF once they realize they've missed the boat - that really irks me. Same goes for those who have multiple abortions in their 20's ... having kids is not a right and I think people need to accept the consequences of their decisions. 

If you do want children in your life down the track when it's not biologically realistic though, there are countless children in desperate need for someone to foster/adopt/love them.

Lizzie

PS - if people pressure you and make you feel bad, tell them you'd love to have kids but can't and that you don't want to talk about it. .... that should shut them up!


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I would never begrudge people who want children. I said in an earlier post that I am super happy for all the people I know who have had, or are having babies, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

I just don't like to be made to feel like some horrible selfish witch because I have chosen not to have children. I really don't think its fair that people discriminate against others based on the choices that they make - I mean, would _they_ like it if someone were to interfere with their choices in life? I think not.


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## jessb (Oct 9, 2008)

tattoolizzie said:


> I don't believe people who postpone parenthood for their convenience should be allowed to access IVF once they realize they've missed the boat - that really irks me. Same goes for those who have multiple abortions in their 20's ... having kids is not a right and I think people need to accept the consequences of their decisions.


 
IVF isn't an easy solution by any means - it costs tens of thousands of dollars, is painful, invasive and usually unsuccessful. Most people in this situation have not "postponed parenthood for their convenience" but instead have made a decision to postpone parenthood until they are in an economic and emotional position to successfully raise a child. 

Really, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't! If you have a child young, you are accused of "not waiting until you are in a position to care for it without relying on government benefits" etc but if you wait until you have established a career, bought a house and achieved financial security, then you are accused of "postponing parenthood for selfish reasons" or "wanting the have the best of both worlds" and they should accept that they have "missed the boat".



tattoolizzie said:


> If you do want children in your life down the track when it's not biologically realistic though, there are countless children in desperate need for someone to foster/adopt/love them.


 
The cut-off age for adoptions in most countries is early 40s - about the same age as fertility diminishes, so it isn't actually a realistic fall-back. There are hardly any children for adoption in Australia (something like <100 in NSW each year!) and international adoptions cost well over $10,000, something that is far out of reach of most parents.


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 9, 2008)

absolutely... people should respect your choice.


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## wiz-fiz (Oct 9, 2008)

if you don't want it then don't have 1 don't let any1 change your mind(you can change your mind, and maybe a super scientific ray gun can mentally change it...).
And when people discriminate say"if you want me to have a baby well, I had a baby, a baby reptile".


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## Chris1 (Oct 9, 2008)

tattoolizzie said:


> That said, (and slightly off topic) I don't believe people who postpone parenthood for their convenience should be allowed to access IVF once they realize they've missed the boat - that really irks me.



i have to disagree, those people have generally contributed alot more tax to the public system than those that chose to squeeze out a brood in their teens and never work and deserve whatever help they get.


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## jessb (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> I really don't think its fair that people discriminate against others based on the choices that they make


 
Not only is it not fair, it is blatantly illegal! Although realistically, parents (particularly mothers) suffer far more discrimination, especially in the workplace, than non-parents.


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 9, 2008)

jessb said:


> IVF isn't an easy solution by any means - it costs tens of thousands of dollars, is painful, invasive and usually unsuccessful. Most people in this situation have not "postponed parenthood for their convenience" but instead have made a decision to postpone parenthood until they are in an economic and emotional position to successfully raise a child.
> 
> Really, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't! If you have a child young, you are accused of "not waiting until you are in a position to care for it without relying on government benefits" etc but if you wait until you have established a career, bought a house and achieved financial security, then you are accused of "postponing parenthood for selfish reasons" or "wanting the have the best of both worlds" and they should accept that they have "missed the boat".
> 
> ...


 
That's true, but anyone can be a foster parent. 

Also, I don't think IVF is an easy way out ... I just don't think it's every ones right to use it. It is no big secret than fertility deminishes for most peope from around 30, and if people know this and decide not to have kids - good for them. If people know and then at 37 decide they want kids afterall and can't , then turn to IVF - I think too bad. Everyone makes choices, and sometimes it is a case of too bad, you missed your chance.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm a strong believer in "if its meant to be, its meant to be". So many people force themselves into situations that their instincts clearly advise against. Then they wonder why things go wrong.
I don't think IVF is natural, or a good thing - but this is just my opinion and of course no one else has to agree. Nature shouldn't be messed with - she makes no mistakes! One the most horrible people I have ever met was conceived by IVF - she is a perfect example of what happens when you tamper with nature. 
Just my opinion though!!


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## jessb (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> Nature shouldn't be messed with - she makes no mistakes!


 
That's a pretty silly statement really.

In my job, I come across thousands of cases of children and babies who are dying of rare, genetic diseases. Should nature be allowed to take its course? 

Not only can science and medicine improve the life of these children, often giving them many additonal years with their families, it can also be used to prevent future babies being born with the same condition. Often nature _doesn't_ know best - it messes up quite often actually which is why we intervene to cure and improve illnesses and alleviate suffering in patients.

If you (god forbid) were diagnosed with cancer next week, would you trust that nature knew what she was doing and forgo any treatment? Or would you rely on the best medical research available to help you find a cure?


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I guess I should have thought about that comment more carefully - I'm a medical scientist, after all! I think what I was trying to say there was that people shouldn't force their bodies to go through something it is clearly not happy to go through (ie trying to make it get pregnant when it doesn't want to).
Sorry if my comment came across as rude or inappropriate. It wasn't intentional


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## jessb (Oct 9, 2008)

Fair enough then.  I wasn't offended, just a bit bewildered by the blanket statement!

I agree that often IVF does involve overriding nature (there is a theory that availability of IVF is increasing the infertility rate by allowing genes of naturally infertile couples to be passed on to their children) but no-one has the right to deny someone the opportunity to try every avenue possible to get pregnant. Having children is a basic human right (as is NOT having children!)


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Yes! You are right. It is the right of everyone to do with their bodies whatever they wish. Much as I am against IVF I believe that people who put themselves through it are totally committed to parenthood, otherwise they wouldn't put themselves through so much - I only wish it were easier for these good folk to fall pregnant naturally than irresponsible teenagers or people who have kids just for the baby bonus!


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## kandi (Oct 9, 2008)

i have 2 children 1 18yrs and 1 7yrs my girl a joy my boy 7yrs a force of nature mentally a physicially demanding. if i knew what i was in for, there would have been no boy ''Jett" . but now that they are both hear i love them to death. i feel everthing has a co**** to run mum then grandparent which usually means family growth and never being lonely in old age. We live in a free country and our choices are our own so feel free to make your choice. never feel pressured to follow what every one else thinks is the right thing to do.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

That's wonderful Kandi!
I really believe you can live a very comfortable life and be surrounded by people even into your old age, whether you have children or not. I don't remember who it was that posted this earlier but your children do eventually grow up and have their own lives and may not have time to spend with you - this is certainly the case in my family as none of us were ever close. Of course this may not apply to every family.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 9, 2008)

I didn't proof read my last post, doesn't make sense.. I cant even remember what I was suppose to mean. But Im basing my judgment on kids from kids iv met, and what I was like as a kid. And I meant to say that they are horrible (not all the time) until they grow up which can some times take a while, can be as early as 18, and I was suppose to mean that I was a good example of maturing early lol.
Chances are i'll have kids though haha. Dont know.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm sorry I offended you with this statement - I was just talking about one particular individual and not all people who were born out of IVF. As I clearly stated in my post - this is just my opinion, and like yourself, am entitled to it. There's no need to be aggressive in your response. It was not my intention to insult your friend - if I had known I would have kept my opinions to myself - I am not a monster - its my understanding that a forum is a medium by which all people are able to sensibly voice their opinions, without being chastised by others. I would give you the same respect and I would, as an adult, expect the same from you.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

You're obviously someone who believes strongly in causes and issues that you are passionate about - perhaps you should be more diplomatic in your responses in the future. I don't know you and you don't know me so please do not be so hasty in jumping down someone's throat just because you don't agree with them. I don't think you would be too happy if the shoe were on the other foot.


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## kandi (Oct 9, 2008)

good point ninjaette it is always good to listen to a different point of view. cheers to you


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you so much Kandi 

I believe in diplomacy and being understanding towards everyone, regardless of what their opinions are. Of course, if they express these opinions to deliberately hurt someone, then that's a different story!! Hopefully no one here is that mean spirited


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm not against IVF in all cases .... I know a number of beautiful and much loved children who are products of IVF ....I just don't think people should use it as a mechanism to have kids later than biologically possible (for them personally) when they have actively decided not to go down the parenthood path earlier on...

I think everyone has a right to choose.... but once you choose you don't have an automatic 'right' to change your mind.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I can't agree with you more tattoolizzie - I hope no one makes these decisions lightly - but I'm just stating the obvious now arent I?


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Ugh... I wish the mods would close this thread now... I was feeling better from all the lovely words of support and wisdom from everyone but all it took was one person to totally fly off the handle to bring me right back to square 1.
Thanks again for all those who were kind with their responses, and to those who I offended I offer my most sincere apologies.
:cry:


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> You're obviously someone who believes strongly in causes and issues that you are passionate about - perhaps you should be more diplomatic in your responses in the future. I don't know you and you don't know me so please do not be so hasty in jumping down someone's throat just because you don't agree with them. I don't think you would be too happy if the shoe were on the other foot.


sorry if I can across as nasty but you should read your response a few time and ask your self if you were indeed nice to those who need IVF - Every one is allowed their opinion but you should be careful how you work things as you did come across as a monster who is totally right in what she wrote. 
Read you thread again and look at it through the eyes of a person who really wants a child and cant have one with out help - you may just then think that my response (over the top maybe) is justified!
For some one who thinks every one is entitled to their own opinion - you come across as narrow minded and uneducated in the need for modern(the twisting of nature)medicine
Sorry if I offend your delicate ego


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

At no time did I say that I was totally right - I was merely expressing an opinion - I of all people should know of the benefits of modern medicine - I have a PhD in neurology.
I think people need to give themselves the benefit of the doubt and maybe trust their bodies a little more rather than relying entirely on medication. Humans are incredible beings.
I have already apologised to you - what more can I do? Like I said there is absolutely no need for nastiness - I didn't make it my mission today to insult you - seriously I have better things to do. I have never encountered anyone on any forum that has been so outwardly nasty to someone they don't even know!


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> At no time did I say that I was totally right - I was merely expressing an opinion - I of all people should know of the benefits of modern medicine - I have a PhD in neurology.
> I think people need to give themselves the benefit of the doubt and maybe trust their bodies a little more rather than relying entirely on medication. Humans are incredible beings.
> I have already apologised to you - what more can I do? Like I said there is absolutely no need for nastiness - I didn't make it my mission today to insult you - seriously I have better things to do. *I have never encountered anyone on any forum that has been so outwardly nasty to someone they don't even know*!


You must not have been on many - I have seen it many times

ooooookay, If nature didnt make mistakes then how come a couple who would make loveing parents cant have a baby but the drug addict scank can have 5? I understand that people who have waited till they are 40 and decide they want kids shouldnt have IVF but again it is their choice as is not having a kid.
SOOOORY okay


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> At no time did I say that I was totally right - I was merely expressing an opinion - I of all people should know of the benefits of modern medicine - I have a PhD in neurology.
> *I think people need to give themselves the benefit of the doubt and maybe trust their bodies a little more rather than relying entirely on medication*. Humans are incredible beings.
> I have already apologised to you - what more can I do? Like I said there is absolutely no need for nastiness - I didn't make it my mission today to insult you - seriously I have better things to do. I have never encountered anyone on any forum that has been so outwardly nasty to someone they don't even know!


 
I would hate to rely on my body as I would be dead in less than a year - I'm pretty sure acute asthma still kills? not too sure as i lack a PhD


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Any which way you look at this it is a difficult issue with no 'right or wrong' answers. My hope is that everyone who has a desire and the love to be parents have their wish fulfilled because these are the people who truly deserve it. 
I guess I said nature makes no mistakes because every single creature in the animal kingdom is perfectly designed for what it does - we herpers should know this more than most people - how beautiful is a new born baby snake/dragon/gecko/monitor? If they can lay eggs/bear live young they do - if they can't they don't. It is soooo simple for them. What happens with people is that no matter how 'skanky' or inappropriate someone is they still have a frontal lobe - this is what separates us from the animals and allows us to have higher cognitive functions - therefore the issue of reproduction becomes so much more complicated than simply 'you can' or 'you can't'.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I think trusting your body combined with the appropriate treatment is the way to go, not one or the other.


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> Any which way you look at this it is a difficult issue with no 'right or wrong' answers. My hope is that everyone who has a desire and the love to be parents have their wish fulfilled because these are the people who truly deserve it.
> I guess I said nature makes no mistakes because every single creature in the animal kingdom is perfectly designed for what it does - we herpers should know this more than most people - how beautiful is a new born baby snake/dragon/gecko/monitor? If they can lay eggs/bear live young they do - if they can't they don't. It is soooo simple for them. What happens with people is that no matter how 'skanky' or inappropriate someone is they still have a frontal lobe - this is what separates us from the animals and allows us to have higher cognitive functions - therefore the issue of reproduction becomes so much more complicated than simply 'you can' or 'you can't'.


 
Now I totally agree with you!!
I trust my body when it tells me I'm having an attack then I use the benefit of modern medicine


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm asthmatic too so I know what you mean. Not an easy condition to manage I know, but I'm really happy that we have the means to do so


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> I'm asthmatic too so I know what you mean. Not an easy condition to manage I know, but I'm really happy that we have the means to do so


 
Yep - I love my doctors and the lovely people who are called ambulance officers - they have saved my life on more than one occasion.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Ambos are the BEST!! Bless em' all. They are soooo over worked and underpaid. They deserve so much more


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## tooninoz (Oct 9, 2008)

Ninjaette, you came on here with a question, plenty of people suggested you do what you want. (I do too).
Please dont bash us around the head with your alleged PhD.

If you feel you have a point, fine.

That you choose not to stick to it shouldn't lead to a yet another diatribe involving "Im doing my PhD in Nanotechnology and everyone else is wrong" etc etc. It is tiresome.

Have kids, don't have kids. Figure it out for yourself matey.​


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## mrmikk (Oct 9, 2008)

Nothing wrong with that choice at all. Pity most other people don't think the act of having children through enough, instead of bringing them into the world and not caring for them properly.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Uh... I haven't bashed anyone around the head?? I never said anyone was wrong either - please, if I have stated that somewhere in those exact terms then point it out! For god's sake! All I wanted was opinions and I was grateful for all the ones I got... What is with this nastiness all of a sudden? Where in ANY of my posts have I explicitly stated that I was right and everyone else was wrong? Bloody hell! I'm getting really tired of having to explain what I said.


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## Ninjaette (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh, I mentioned my education to support what Natalie was saying - not to put anyone down so please don't insult me without being properly informed about what was actually said!


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