# GTP revolution



## Franco (Oct 13, 2005)

Hi all.

Franco here ? long time listener, first time caller!

Given the recent breeding success of Roy Pails with his green tree pythons, I thought it worthwhile to point out the ramifications of this great achievement - although I'm sure you all know where I?m headed with this.
Firstly I'd like to personally congratulate Roy (although I'm fairly sure he's not a member of this forum) for cracking one of herpetology?s toughest nuts. It just goes to show that with a bit of time, patience and know-how that anything is possible. 
I?m well aware that this accomplishment is by know means a first and has been surrounded by a great deal of controversy in recent years, however, judging by the comments made on the Pails for scales website it would appear that Roy has cracked the GTP nut (egg!!) in a monumental way. Looking at the titbits of information that Pails has been leaking to the public over the last couple of weeks it would appear that he has successfully hatched at least 102 of these beautiful serpents with more to come!. I for one will not be purchasing any of these hatchlings as the exorbitant price tag around the necks of these little beauties is presently a little beyond my means. However, given different financial circumstances I?d be lining up with all the other punters to secure a couple.
Irrespective of my current financial situation, I?ve been finding it hard to wipe the smile from my face of late. All of a sudden, these reptiles have been made available on a scale that I have not witnessed in all the time that I have been herping. For now (for me and probably most of you), I?ll have to sit back and wait for my chance to own what I consider Australia?s and possibly the world?s most prized python. I am however content as I know that in the not too distant future, these babies will mature and with the right care begin having babies of there own. Ultimately, some time down the track the price of the GTP may be just a little closer for you and for me.


I take my hat off to Roy Pails and would love to hear your views on this subject as I believe I?ve just scratched the surface!

Cheers
Franco


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## AGAMIDAE (Oct 13, 2005)

agreed, with more successful breeding sooner or later the price will go down like most things, Congrat Roy on cracking open a little gold mined.


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## Slateman (Oct 13, 2005)

102 new babies. That is great. I hope that if more people will be that sucsessfull, we will see better prices in the future.


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## africancichlidau (Oct 13, 2005)

What's a GTP?


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## Franco (Oct 13, 2005)

Sorry about that:

GTP = Gigantic tiger prawn


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## africancichlidau (Oct 13, 2005)

Ah, OK, not into seafood though.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2005)

Its like with BHP and Womas they have both come down in price over the yrs so hopefully so will the GTP's


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## serpenttongue (Oct 13, 2005)

I think prices will stay high for a long time yet, with only those who've bred them in the past breeding them in the future. Do you think the Chondro breeders will give away their secrets to someone whose just bought a pair of hatchlings from them? Lets just say a handful of people buy hatchlings Chondro pairs from Roy, they then have to wait a year before sexing only to find out they have 2 males or 2 females, and then what? Buy another hatchling and wait a year to see what sex it is? Or buy a yearling for an amount they cant afford. You really need 2-3 pairs if you seriously want to breed Chondros.

There's also the chance that first time breeders may fail. Low hatchling rates, infertile eggs and other uncertainties etc, while the top breeders continue to soar. Sure theres Greg Maxwells book to aid all those concerned, but there's also people out there still having failures with Childreni eggs, even with the info we have on them!

As for me, i reckon rough scaled pythons will be in my possession before Chondros are. I think rough scale pythons prices will soon drop faster than a guillotine!


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## peterescue (Oct 13, 2005)

Im with you fisho, never been big on the prawns, bottom feeders you know. I assumed GTP was a new recycled paper product.


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## BeardyBen (Oct 13, 2005)

Put me down for 3 kilos of gigantic tiger prawns please


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## Vat69 (Oct 13, 2005)

I'm with serpenttongue on this one. I also don't believe that the chondro breeders will want to let go of their monopoly by just selling everything to anyone and everyone. Well not yet anyway. But they'd be stupid to do that when they can make the money they can.


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## basketcase (Oct 13, 2005)

if he really has 102 juveniles and he's selling them for close to 10k each thats just greedy imo. thats... *one million dollars!*

damn, thats just too much money imo.

i understand big business and pythons go hand in hand now, but when ppl have animals that are worth more than their cars its getting beyond the joke


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## Vat69 (Oct 13, 2005)

Basket, buddy, you honestly wouldn't rip off all the suckers you could if you had the chance?

....or maybe I'm just too cynical? :lol:


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## basketcase (Oct 13, 2005)

i wouldnt double the usual price if i had that many animals for sale.

in the end theyre worth whatever people are willing to pay. if people are willing to pay 9,800, thats what theyre worth. imo its prices like these that encourage wild collecting.


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## Jay (Oct 13, 2005)

LMAO. Yeah If anything id offer them up at $10, 500-$11, 000 depending on how many others were available at the time, and flood the herp keeping world and elsewhere in a way that protected my direct identity (less chance of thievery) but that brought in many previouly non herp keepers ^^
but yeah thats just me.....and my love of money ^^


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## Vat69 (Oct 13, 2005)

I totally agree. High prices encourages wild collecting no doubt (in my opinion). I'll admit if I lived in GTP local area I'd be tempted to just go pick up a free one. Not only that, with prices so high......and I have a pair from Pailsy and access to limitless WC......you know where I'm going :wink:


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## Sdaji (Oct 13, 2005)

> i understand big business and pythons go hand in hand now, but when ppl have animals that are worth more than their cars its getting beyond the joke



If you pay as little for your car as I did, it's not difficult to get an animal worth more than it! 

I don't see how Roy is being greedy. If you had $1,000,000, would you give it away? If not, would you be greedy? He is just selling things for what people are willing to pay. If what he has is worth a million dollars, he will sell it for that much. People who complain are just jealous. I'd love to have a lot of things which I can't afford, animals included, but that's no reason for the people who own them to give them to me for free.

Zac: since when have black headed pythons come down in price? As long as I can remember they've sold for around $1,000 each. Womas have been around $4,000 per pair since way back with loose females almost never available and males selling for between $1,000 and $2,000 each for at least ten years. This season does seem to carry the first indications of womas coming down and there are predictions of black headed prices crashing, but it hasn't happened yet. Many things have risen in price, top of the range blonde macs, black and yellow jungles and bredli among other species have dramatically increased. Up until about two or three years ago, everyone was tipping chondros to crash in price, but they have doubled. I suspect they'll stay above $5,000 for a few years yet. Predicting price change of reptiles is a bit like the stockmarket I suppose!

I agree with serpenttongue about the price of rough scaled pythons crashing. John Wiegel seems to be attempting to breed huge numbers of them before selling them in any real quantity, just releasing a small number (two or three pairs so far?) to private keepers while sitting on his stockpile of hundreds of them. He must have several hundred by now as he says they breed easily and have fairly large clutches. He has been at it for quite a few years now, more than enough time for two generations, so the twenty or two babies from the first clutches should now have grandchildren... do the maths, it's potentially well over 1,000 that he is sitting on, with the number dramatically increasing each season. I'm guessing he plans to sell a heap all at once so he can get top dollar for them, with the small few he has let go so far released as a tease to get interest up and give the image of very few existing. It's quite unfair that one person has been allowed to get the monopoly on this species, but such is life. After a few rough scaled pythons hit the market, the price will crash as apart from a small number of enthusiasts, such as serpenttongue (and myself!) the general reptile keeping community doesn't seem to be too interested in a dull coloured snake with teeth which must give it an extremely painful bite. If Roy Pails is greedy for asking for a high price for his animals (which people are happy to pay) what is Wiegel, sitting on a massive stockpile of a species no one else has access to, not telling people all that much about how many he has, husbandry information etc etc and not letting people have them at any price?


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## southy (Oct 13, 2005)

id be worried about them getting stolen, $1 million worth in snakes!! but agree with most people on here, prices will stay high for years to come yet


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## basketcase (Oct 13, 2005)

good post sdaji, u should get into arguements more often 

its a difference of opinion, i wouldnt do what pails is doing, but thats mainly due to the fact that i will never own a green python. we need some kind of ACCC for reptiles i rkn :twisted: 

pails can do what he likes, theyre his animals. *I think it's greedy, but that doesnt mean to say it is.* just my point of view


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## Vat69 (Oct 13, 2005)

I think it's quite smart. As for Weigel, he's a very lucky man to have gotten where he is and to be in the position he is in now...in my opinion anyway.


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## Reptilia (Oct 13, 2005)

I for one am not to worried about the gtp's prices, I'm more worried about what happens after the big gtp fad... 'It's morphin time !'. After all true coloured snakes, and by this I mean natural colours. What next?!. 
Although along way away, we will eventually see snakes with unatural colours such as those sold be greg maxwell. Each snake unique and going for prices that will blow your mind!...


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## Sdaji (Oct 13, 2005)

> As for Weigel, he's a very lucky man to have gotten where he is and to be in the position he is in now...in my opinion anyway.



He is very lucky, for sure. My problem is not so much with him, it's with the people who let the monopoly fall into one person's hands. They should have realised that this would give that one person the power to do what is being done. As much as I disagree with the government and don't like them having power, this is one situation where I think the first animals should have gone to the government (thus publicly owned) and been bred in large numbers, the information obtained distributed freely to anyone who wanted it and then the animals sold at a reasonable price (these are publicly owned, so no greed needs to be involved) with the money going back to the state or federal conservation budget. Everyone wins including the snakes and no one has the ability to monopolise the market.

It's too late for the rough scaled pythons, but it's a lesson to be learned, which I think should be used in the case of the Oenpelli pythons, Australian chondro, Western olive python and countless others and should have been used for the entire WA collection system.



> good post sdaji, u should get into arguements more often



I used to get involved in almost all of them, I learned not to. I suppose I've forgotten for long enough to get involved in this one! No doubt I'll here learn the lesson again and keep away from the conflict again, until I forget the lesson........


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## pugsly (Oct 13, 2005)

Id like to know how many actually get sold. If he has over 100 how many of us are in a position to buy one.. Maybe he will but if he doesnt will he keep the price at that or do you think he will lower it?

I dont have a problem with it as I think there are many more beautiful snakes we can keep in the meantime than the gtp, as for being a millionaire well good on him. Think about it, go and by a few pairs off him, big outlay, but MASSIVE return down the track. Forget the stock exchange peoples!!


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## Retic (Oct 13, 2005)

Roy has worked very hard to get to this stage, I am still bewildered by the fact that people are lining up to pay this sort of money, at best they are a $3000 animal. GTP's are not terribly difficult to breed and this is shown in the price overseas, around US$300. I am not talking about wild caught babies but GTP's that are bred each and every year by numerous breeders all over the world.
Why has it taken so long to get to this point where one breeder is getting in excess of 100 hatchlings ?
I know all about 'them' having access to many more snakes but this still doesn't explain why after all these years an animal that has good sized clutches and is not hard to breed should still sell for $10,000 ?
I also agree that I see no evidence of Woma and BHP prices dropping, they appear to be holding firm and good quality animals show no sign of dropping in value.


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## stencorp69 (Oct 13, 2005)

The main thing about overseas pricing is that they have had decades of legal breeding to get high and wide spread stock levels. In Australia different states have had only years of breeding for stock, in WA its only 3 years. I doubt any one in NSW would pay $1250 for a carpet python like we do in WA. Time will make our hobby cheaper - decades not years.

For those that are making money out of it - Good on them it is only good for all of us long term, as the more people interested in the hobby the more polictical power we'll have.

Sten


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## herptrader (Oct 13, 2005)

BeardyBen said:


> Put me down for 3 kilos of gigantic tiger prawns please



At nearly $10k for a hatchling that is a mega price for a tiger prawn - you will do much better at the local fish monger ;-)


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## Vat69 (Oct 13, 2005)

We've had a a bit longer than few years I think. We've had less time *not* being able to import than when we could import right? So they've been in collections for a long time, long enough to have a good sized captive breeding collection. Perhaps people are just too scared to sell red babies now that it's illegal to have exotics?
But then I could just be ranting :roll: [/b]


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## Splitmore (Oct 13, 2005)

I think it's quite smart. As for Weigel, he's a very lucky man to have gotten where he is and to be in the position he is in now...in my opinion anyway.
[/quote]
Luck is winning the lottery. John worked hard for over 10 years and spent tens of thousands of dollars locating and collecting those animals without any guarantee what so ever of even finding one, let alone being granted permits to collect them.
Sadji, where have got the info that he is sitting on hundreds of them? Yes he has had quite a bit of success in breeding them but has also had to satisy obligations of his original permits regarding the offspring. 
I'd be taking what is written on Pails site with a grain of salt and wouldn't read too much into it at all. Why would you be trying to get an absolute permium price for such a rare snake then imply that you have over a hundred of them for sale?


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## diamond_python (Oct 13, 2005)

If I had the money and the opportunity, I would do the same as Roy. Good on him. IMO  (probably sell them cheaper though for a quicker turnover among other reasons


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## Vat69 (Oct 13, 2005)

Splitmore said:


> Luck is winning the lottery. John worked hard for over 10 years and spent tens of thousands of dollars locating and collecting those animals without any guarantee what so ever of even finding one, let alone being granted permits to collect them.



Personally I think he's been lucky in the fact that he's been able to do all that (gotten the permits etc.) and not be a qualified herpetologist funded by the government. Even more lucky that he's been able to keep the animals that were collected for research? and breed them as a personal venture.


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## Scale_Addiction (Oct 13, 2005)

> I also agree that I see no evidence of Woma and BHP prices dropping, they appear to be holding firm and good quality animals show no sign of dropping in value


i agree boa, i have been looking into BHP's lately, and the 'good stuff' is still worth a fortune.


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## olivehydra (Oct 14, 2005)

Just my 2 cents..... If people like pails were operating out of their garage or spare room then $1 million is a tidy sum. As a business owner I am fully aware of operational costs and the many risks involved in running a business and if it takes off after much hard work then good luck to you. I bet if Roy turns over $1mill for his chondros there will be substantially less than that in his bank account at the end of the day.


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## Pike01 (Oct 14, 2005)

I dont believe people complaining how much people are making and their prices, we make the prices.If people wont pay that much, the price will come down. As for John, if it wasnt for him there wouldnt be any r.s.p in captivity, of course he should be the winner out of this.If you do the work, you should reap the benefits, simple as that.


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## AGAMIDAE (Oct 14, 2005)

pike1 said:


> I dont believe people complaining how much people are making and their prices, we make the prices.If people wont pay that much, the price will come down. As for John, if it wasnt for him there wouldnt be any r.s.p in captivity, of course he should be the winner out of this.If you do the work, you should reap the benefits, simple as that.



right on....


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## BeardyBen (Oct 14, 2005)

> BeardyBen wrote: ›Put me down for 3 kilos of gigantic tiger prawns please
> 
> 
> At nearly $10k for a hatchling that is a mega price for a tiger prawn - you will do much better at the local fish monger



hehehe  looks like ill have to just settle for regular prawns for the time being.... probably taste like crap anyways....


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## OuZo (Oct 14, 2005)

> If you do the work, you should reap the benefits, simple as that.



I think people are probably more saying that they would have liked to have done the work, but weren't given the opportunity . Geez if someone had given me the opportunity to keep and breed the only RSP in captivity I wouldn't have turned it down :lol:


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## herptrader (Oct 14, 2005)

It is probably not the right time of year to be making this assessment. The real test is when the hatchlings start coming onto the market in a couple of months time.

A couple of years ago $1200 was common for BHP's.

Last year the going rate was around $800. Even one of our local pet shops was selling them for about that much.

My hunch is that you will be able to get good animals for close to $600 this hatchling season.

Adults and unusual morphs are a whole different kettle of fish of course.



Azztech said:


> > I also agree that I see no evidence of Woma and BHP prices dropping, they appear to be holding firm and good quality animals show no sign of dropping in value
> 
> 
> i agree boa, i have been looking into BHP's lately, and the 'good stuff' is still worth a fortune.


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## basketcase (Oct 14, 2005)

600 for good hatchling bhp's? thatll be the day

heres a comparison for u. 

there are breeders that sell pairs of womas each year for 5k and ppl are lining up for them. theyre quality animals and so you pay the price theyre worth. 

URS recently sold woma hatclings for 1600. these animals were out of season and from the pics i saw not stunning animals by any stretch, but they sold for that price cause thats what they were worth.

the bottom line is you pay for what you get. top quality animals will always fetch the usual price and sometimes more.


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## zulu (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*

If i had that much supply of GTPS,and i wanted 10K each i wouldnt be letting on that i had a hundred,ide say i havent got many left and sell last one many times over. :lol:


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## ErisKSC (Oct 14, 2005)

Good on Pails and Weigal!

Both of them love these animals and are doing it to make them available in the community, i can't wait to get my hands on a r.s.p, and a g.t.p, but the cost keeps me away, for now. But being a patient and rational human i can wait! When i get rich then i can get one, but for now i'm content knowing there are people out there trying to make this hobby better! 

So get off there backs with all the 'greedy' talk, it's not like they've discovered the cure for cancer and are selling it to make millions of pain and misery, they had the time, the skills and luck to be in the situation where they could, and i for onje am glad they took the plunge and investedso much time in their respective projects!

CONGRATULATIONS!


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## moosenoose (Oct 14, 2005)

I'm just gonna go bush and take on the DSE, the fines and gaol terms. I'm not going to pay 10k for a snake  I'm gonna get a breeding couple for free! :lol: Biggest hurdle will be the missus! hehehe


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## zulu (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*



ErisKSC said:


> Good on Pails and Weigal!
> 
> Both of them love these animals and are doing it to make them available in the community, i can't wait to get my hands on a r.s.p, and a g.t.p, but the cost keeps me away, for now. But being a patient and rational human i can wait! When i get rich then i can get one, but for now i'm content knowing there are people out there trying to make this hobby better!
> 
> ...


 Community worker hey,i thought ror was in business to make money,thats really nice thoughtfull considerate stuff,i luv youse all!


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## Fuscus (Oct 14, 2005)

this is the result of roy pails putting in a lot of time, money and effort - good on him.

But can the market take 100 GTP @ $9800 each ? Plus the other breeders young. My bet is on a price drop, we will find out soon enough


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## zulu (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*



moosenoose said:


> I'm just gonna go bush and take on the DSE, the fines and gaol terms. I'm not going to pay 10k for a snake  I'm gonna get a breeding couple for free! :lol: Biggest hurdle will be the missus! hehehe


 PMSL :lol: See if jetstar has flights to iron range moosey


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## Brodie (Oct 14, 2005)

Zoe, would you also invest tens of thousands of dollars, with no guarantee that you would succeed? I very much doubt it! I dont think many of us would, I wouldnt! Even if I only had to invest $10 i couldnt afford it hehe!!


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## BROWNS (Oct 14, 2005)

There would be heaps more around and Pure Aussie ones as well as the deemedOz greens if certain people hadn't had their animals confiscated in large numbers.Irwin is sitting on a gold mine there.


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## OuZo (Oct 14, 2005)

> Zoe, would you also invest tens of thousands of dollars, with no guarantee that you would succeed? I very much doubt it! I dont think many of us would, I wouldnt! Even if I only had to invest $10 i couldnt afford it hehe!!



No but that's because I don't have tens of thousands of dollars!!! I get the impression that john Weigal is a little better off than I am? :lol:

I don't really care anyway, just explaining where others were coming from


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## moosenoose (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*



zulu said:


> moosenoose said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just gonna go bush and take on the DSE, the fines and gaol terms. I'm not going to pay 10k for a snake  I'm gonna get a breeding couple for free! :lol: Biggest hurdle will be the missus! hehehe
> ...



I'm looking now


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2005)

personally, if i had greens for sale and they were the true ozy's then i would sell them for no more then 6k each, yer it is still alot, but thats still a hell of a lot of cash at the end of the day for the breeder and as said if people will pay it then why go cheeper, i just thin 10k is radiculous, if he realy does have over a hundred gtps, then in 3-4 yrs when they breed then there will be heeps of them on the market and the prices would have to drop due to the compatition, i just dont think its worth it, but all that said, good on him for being so successful. as for the roughs well i would strongly agree that they will fall in price very fast when they are more readily available and i dont blame him for keeping heeps of them and eventualy selling heeps of offspring for a high price and making as much money as possible, but once again i wouldnt do it. but i would have to say if the market for reptiles grows at much the same rate as the increase in numbers of hatchlings due to breeding, then i cant see a drop in price for many yrs to come, because there will always be the new comers that will be willing to pay, as for me i will pay 5k for a good pair of womas from a good breeder just like i would pay 2500 for a good pair of bhp, even if prices fall the good animals will still fetch a fair price.


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## Slateman (Oct 14, 2005)

Lot of people is to stressed that somebody is making proffit. LOL I personally think that this is nobody's business.


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## saxon (Oct 14, 2005)

true that slateman


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## BROWNS (Oct 14, 2005)

Dount good qualiy bhp' will drop in price for a long time yetimo they are worth more than the prices on them now for such georgeous animals.

There are so many exotic lines of greens around and noobody breeding pure Oz greens that i'm aware of which is what gets me when so many people jump up and down about hybrids etc but would happily pay $%k for a red baby :roll: If Irwin who actually lost the court case where greens were confiscated from someone at least gave half the stock bak the original breeder would be happy.Then there's Irwins Aussies i'm sure he has to which i hope he breeds and the pure Aussie greens which have different colouation and head size to other geographical localities outside of Oz isn't too hard to spot an Oz from an exotic or would you call them crosses/hybrids?

Witht the rsp good luck to him for some people it's not just herps but also business and many put what they make back into their animals.

Does anyone think $6,600 was way too much for albino carpets anyone?


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2005)

> Does anyone think $6,600 was way too much for albino carpets anyone?



yes, but im not saying that is isnt a great looking snake just think it is a bit pricey, i think 4k would be reasonable (thats the max i would pay) although if it came down to that or a gtp both at 6k it would be hard to choose cause although i think they are expensive, you have to take into consideration that the babys of the albino would probably sell easier cause they are after all much easier to care for and have alomst no special needs, where as a gtp needs much more attantion. also you need two gtp to breed and it is much harder to get a pair of gtp then a pair of carpets even if you crossed the albino with a normal and then bred the babys back with the albino you would easily get more albinos.


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## apple (Oct 14, 2005)

How much do you reckon he spends on maintenance like for all his herps and cages and lights?.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2005)

Has anyone even stopped to think that the possible reason the price is so high is because most of that money will be going to the tax man??? If it was just a hobby size clutch, and he wasnt selling them out of his business then the price could possibly be at the "usual" 5k. Due to the tax man taking a fair chunk, the only way he can make the "usual" price out of them is to bump them up to almost double the 5k. And as we all know, anything from a hobbiest that is making them over 50k per annum (which wouldnt be that hard from a nice sized clutch) is taxed at a premium rate. 

Something to think about anyway.


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## moosenoose (Oct 14, 2005)

Teamsherman said:


> Has anyone even stopped to think that the possible reason the price is so high is because most of that money will be going to the tax man???



eh?? You are wrong!


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## moosenoose (Oct 14, 2005)

apple said:


> How much do you reckon he spends on maintenance like for all his herps and cages and lights?.



Oh I can tell you that one. Last time I spoke to Roy he said somewhere in the vacinity of 6-7k per month! :shock:

ps: Anyway, like I said, there's some freebies out there in the bush and Im gonna get em!! Who's with me? :lol:


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## zulu (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*



BROWNS said:


> Dount good qualiy bhp' will drop in price for a long time yetimo they are worth more than the prices on them now for such georgeous animals.
> 
> There are so many exotic lines of greens around and noobody breeding pure Oz greens that i'm aware of which is what gets me when so many people jump up and down about hybrids etc but would happily pay $%k for a red baby :roll: If Irwin who actually lost the court case where greens were confiscated from someone at least gave half the stock bak the original breeder would be happy.Then there's Irwins Aussies i'm sure he has to which i hope he breeds and the pure Aussie greens which have different colouation and head size to other geographical localities outside of Oz isn't too hard to spot an Oz from an exotic or would you call them crosses/hybrids?
> 
> ...


 Ok yung browneye uncle zulu has granted you a special payrise,someones gotta pay for it so the boa Aztec lines will die in the bum,prices of the browneye line are predicted to rise steadily above the mediocre competition.  PS Sorry browns i couldnt read parts of it without me glasses yungdude.


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## obee (Oct 14, 2005)

intereststing browns that steve only has 2 on his licence last time i checked the queensland species management program census.i think the previous one listed 9 pairs.so where have they gone.someone might be nervous...mmm


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## Morelia_Hunter (Oct 14, 2005)

The comments about the albinos are amazing? Clearly you have not kept them yourself. You can hardly compare them to GTPs which in my opinion is also a nice snake. The albinos have small clutches and seem to have had even smaller clutches this year? Very strange? They are also a little bit difficult in the first few months to get eating steadily. I am just talking about the ones I know off, others might have had different successes. I think $6600 is too little for a rare snake like this! Its all about supply and demand. Keep the numbers low, then you can keep your price up!


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## zulu (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*



Morelia_Hunter said:


> The comments about the albinos are amazing? Clearly you have not kept them yourself. You can hardly compare them to GTPs which in my opinion is also a nice snake. The albinos have small clutches and seem to have had even smaller clutches this year? Very strange? They are also a little bit difficult in the first few months to get eating steadily. I am just talking about the ones I know off, others might have had different successes. I think $6600 is too little for a rare snake like this! Its all about supply and demand. Keep the numbers low, then you can keep your price up!


 Yep the bucks are on albino darwins and GTPS this year,thats where demand is at the moment.


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## orsm (Oct 14, 2005)

> Has anyone even stopped to think that the possible reason the price is so high is because most of that money will be going to the tax man???



Somehow I don't think that he'll be declaring all of his income to the taxman. Unless his finances are controlled by a third party eg. a payroll, I think it's safe to assume that only he'll declare a miniscule part of his income to the taxman (just like many of the people in the "aquarium industry"). Call me a cynic. 

And I agree with the people who think that $10k is a lot of money to pay for a GTP. It's simply ridiculous but hey, to each his own. :wink:

Be happy..


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2005)

orsm said:


> > Has anyone even stopped to think that the possible reason the price is so high is because most of that money will be going to the tax man???
> 
> 
> 
> Somehow I don't think that he'll be declaring all of his income to the taxman. Unless his finances are controlled by a third party eg. a payroll, I think it's safe to assume that only he'll declare a miniscule part of his income to the taxman (just like many of the people in the "aquarium industry"). Call me a cynic.



I think he would want to. If he didnt and they found out, there would be his whole efforts, time and most likely lively hood, down the drain in one bad mistake. And with all the fuss on the net and in herp societies everywhere around australia, i reckon big brother is watching him already.


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## zulu (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*

Dont mention TAX :x :shock: :x


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2005)

*re GTP*



zulu said:


> Dont mention TAX :x :shock: :x



LMAO, its one of 2 garanteed things in life.


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## Duke_jensen (Oct 14, 2005)

hey there's nuthin wrong with paying lots of tax it means your earning lots of money


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## moosenoose (Oct 14, 2005)

The other being??............ Bent over by the tax man???


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## OuZo (Oct 15, 2005)

> Ok yung browneye uncle zulu has granted you a special payrise



Hey nobody calls him Browneye without my permission :twisted:


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## ether (Oct 15, 2005)

> The other being??............ Bent over by the tax man???



Death


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## zulu (Oct 15, 2005)

*re GTP*



ether said:


> > The other being??............ Bent over by the tax man???
> 
> 
> 
> Death


 Yes little dude theres the death thing what a bitch,anyone out there thats gonna snuff it uncle zulu will pick up there GTPS and other herps free of charge


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## moosenoose (Oct 15, 2005)

Death is not inevitable! I plan to live forever!! Muhahahaha So far so good!



> Yep the bucks are on albino darwins and GTPS this year,thats where demand is at the moment.



I find the word demand a little excessive for summing up these animals. Sure they are desirable, but the price makes them only available for either the incredibly rich or equally stupid! :lol: Im sorry, but unless you drive a 300k Porshe when collecting your 10k snake, I'd be looking at you thinking you're about right for the looney bin! 10k for a snake is obscene! Plain and simple :?


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2005)

moosenoose said:


> Im sorry, but unless you drive a 300k Porshe when collecting your 10k snake



*said in a prim and proper private school boy voice*

"oh daddy, can you give me a lift to melbourne please?"....LMAO


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## womas4me (Oct 15, 2005)

If you are a company you pay 33 % or so tax. Anyone earning as much as roy will of the gtp's would be mad not to be a company.


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## Sdaji (Oct 16, 2005)

> I find the word demand a little excessive for summing up these animals. Sure they are desirable, but the price makes them only available for either the incredibly rich or equally stupid! Im sorry, but unless you drive a 300k Porshe when collecting your 10k snake, I'd be looking at you thinking you're about right for the looney bin! 10k for a snake is obscene! Plain and simple



I don't really think so. I don't like chondros much at all, and won't be paying $10,000 for them, but I don't think doing so is all that crazy. When I buy (or take as a gift) a Children's python or any other snake, I look at it as costing me about that much money. I'll have to spend something like $1,000 in caging over its lifetime, something like $2000 in food over its lifetime, however much in electricity, cage furnishings, possible health related costs and possible around half to one hour in time per week in maintenance - around 500-1000 hours over its life, which must be worth at the very least $5,000... add it all up and you realise that taking on a $250 childreni is actually going to be an investment in the order of the price of a chondro, so a chondro actually only really costs about twice as much as an "ordinary" snake.

If chondros were my dream snake, I'd be saving up for one. I'm fortunate enough for most of my favourite snakes (red bellied blacks, death adders, water pythons, Children's pythons) to be worth less than $500 each which has meant that I've been able to afford to get several of each (although I don't have any red bellies at the moment  ) and I'm paying off most of the $10,000 per snake gradually, but if I now found myself without any water pythons and had to spend $20,000 to get a pair, I'd be striving to get the money together and happy to pay it once I had it. I also wouldn't give a moment's consideration to offers of $10,000 for many of my snakes, even though their market values are trivial. I think the perceived value of animals is often far too low. Each to their own, but I can understand people shelling out huge sums of money for snakes they dearly want.

As for Roy, he is making a [email protected] load of money because he has put in a lot of hard work, risked a lot of his own money and had a bit of good luck, I don't think we need to critise him about what he is doing with his chondros, if you don't like the price, be like Moosey and Sdaji; don't buy them!


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## Jason (Oct 16, 2005)

> I can understand people shelling out huge sums of money for snakes they dearly want.


thats true i would pay big bucks for an albino spotted python, if i could get one. and i will happily be paying 5k for a good pair of womas when i get the cash.


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## munkee (Oct 16, 2005)

They are worth what people will pay as is everything. If people want to pay that much then they will, if people don't they wont. Simple.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Oct 16, 2005)

Didnt Tim sell his Chondro's for $6500 last season?
BIG price difference wouldnt you say?

But with that said I couldnt care less because im not in the market of buying any


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## Sdaji (Oct 16, 2005)

> Didnt Tim sell his Chondro's for $6500 last season?
> BIG price difference wouldnt you say?



If you buy into the stock market and your shares go up by 80% (which is common), would you sell them for what you paid?


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## munkee (Oct 16, 2005)

If and I mean if he doesn't sell them in time he may lower his price but thats his call.


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## moosenoose (Oct 17, 2005)

Fair points Sdaji. 

After visiting Roys place last year I was awe-struck (is that a word?? It's mine now!! lol) and $10k in the big picture of things over his way would appear a drop in the ocean for him. I'm looking forward to visiting his new shop!

All I can say is good for him on his successes and his overall achievements with these snakes. I don't wish to showing any negativity towards Roy at all, I just find 10k hard to swallow when talking about buying 1 snake lol And, good luck to anybody who has that lazy 10 or 20k to buy one or a couple of them. Do you think he'd offer a slight discount for say 4 chondros??? hehehe

I've seen the RSP's going for 15k or so. But are they rarer than than the chondros?? Harder to breed?? I'm guessing a mixture of the two.


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## Sdaji (Oct 17, 2005)

> After visiting Roys place last year I was awe-struck (is that a word?? It's mine now!! lol)



You're not the first to use it 



> I've seen the RSP's going for 15k or so. But are they rarer than than the chondros?? Harder to breed?? I'm guessing a mixture of the two.



Easier to breed (according to the only person who has done it) but rarer and probably most importantly, virtually all the animals are held by one person. For once I agree with the mainstream view on a price prediction; I think the price of rough scaleds will drop very quickly once what exists becomes available. Hooray for the few people like me who want them!


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## Morelia_Hunter (Oct 17, 2005)

Roy does not have a 100 GTPs. The website exagerates a bit. I have seen the babies. Close to a hundred but not a hundred. The price of rsp depend on who gets a hold of them first and what they do with them? Supply and demand is what they say. The first ones will be way overpriced. I think they are nice too, have handled a few and they have an interesting feel to them. But the teeth I dont know about?


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## basketcase (Oct 17, 2005)

MH - he'd have to have 103 to make him an instant millionaire as the website claims.


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## URS (Oct 17, 2005)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> Didnt Tim sell his Chondro's for $6500 last season?
> BIG price difference wouldnt you say?
> 
> But with that said I couldnt care less because im not in the market of buying any



JandC_Reptiles,
We have sold in the passed a large amount of them that we have bred here for $5000 not feeding and quite a lot of them for $7500 feeding, these prices were for hatchlings,
These prices do include GST, before any one asks!

At this stage we do not have a firm price for this years hatchlings that will be available very soon. 
When all the back orders are filled we will then put them for sale on our webpage.
www.ultimatereptiles.com.au

Regards Tim


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## Tim (Oct 17, 2005)

Teamsherman said:


> . And as we all know, anything from a hobbiest that is making them over 50k per annum (which wouldnt be that hard from a nice sized clutch) is taxed at a premium rate.



Where are you getting the $50,000 figure from? It comes down to the circumstances of the individual, there's no hard and fast rule about hobby income.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Oct 17, 2005)

Thanks for clearing that for me Tim (URS).

The point I was trying to make was that there is a significant mark up on Roys hatchlings compared to the average price of what they have sold for in the past. I would say this was due to being able to fill the demand without any competition (yet), hence asking any amount he likes. 

I now see this going 1 of 2 ways.

1. You selling your clutches at the prices you have been in the past $5000 - $7500, maybe making Roy come down to the "average" price. 

2. You selling for the same amount as Roy and $9800 becoming the "average" price for these animals.

As I said before I am not in the market for Chondro's so I am not fazed what the price of them are now or in the future, I just wanted to point out the price they have sold for in the past so everyone understood what all the crying is about (even though its still not warranted).


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## zulu (Oct 17, 2005)

*re GTP*



URS said:


> JandC_Reptiles said:
> 
> 
> > Didnt Tim sell his Chondro's for $6500 last season?
> ...


 Good to here that youve bred some this year at URS congratulations mate any pics :wink: Cheers colin.


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## foxysnake (Oct 17, 2005)

How did someone come up with the number 102 chonndros hatched and how reliable is that number?


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## foxysnake (Oct 17, 2005)

And where exactly on his webpage does he say he'l become an instant millionare? - I've scoured his whole website and couldn't find the word millionaire anywhere.


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## moosenoose (Oct 17, 2005)

Oldest trick in the book I think!! *AND YOU ARE ALL FALLING FOR IT!!!* :lol: :lol: 

Put as an example, the Indian guy down the road bumps up his fuel price to $1.40 a litre, his mate down the road does the same! Then 7/11 owner number one rings his mate, 7/11 owner number two, and says I'll go you 50% of the profits if you drop your price back to where it was! This then works because the gulible few, with VERY loose wallets, then think the 6.5k price was a fair and reasonable price - AND BUY UP FAST!! 

Demand is only there for those of us who could never wait until Xmas time when we were kids! lol If nobody buys, the prices naturally go down. But hey, start saving up


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## URS (Oct 18, 2005)

*re GTP*

[/quote] Good to here that youve bred some this year at URS congratulations mate any pics :wink: Cheers colin.[/quote]

Thanks Colin,
Have load of pictures of them mate, will add them to our webpage when we put them on there for sale.

Regards tim
www.ultimatereptiles.com.au


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## zulu (Oct 18, 2005)

*re GTP*

Thanks Tim,it would be great to see some pics of the young and parents.some animals you have at URS are very nice i like the blue in them mate. Cheers colin.l


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## BROWNS (Oct 18, 2005)

Still can't see the attraction and that is pure Aussies...why care we only allowed to keep natives but have to pay 10k for a bloody plastic green thing that hangs there and doesn't move.

Having said that some of the exotic lines are beautiful with blues,brightyellow,flurogreens and even the black spotted ones look like they have mites LOL

Don't think you can even compare greens to albinos...greens breed greens and there's variation but albinos there is so much that can be done with them and not a greedy price to be asking imo and they haven't all been held onto and then the market flooded as seems like what will happen with Greens and rsp's which used to be rare as rcking horse crap but now black and white jungles are even rarer than them...


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## Franco (Oct 18, 2005)

The "instant millionare" quote has been removed from the website! I think someone may have gotten a little carried away while writing that page!


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## foxysnake (Oct 18, 2005)

Franco I never have seen the word millionaire on that webpage and seeing as I frequent the internet quite often and visit that page as well as numerous others every day I don't think I would have missed it. I think everyone (including you IMO) is getting carried away with false numbers etc. And not many people seemingly know exactly how many the man himself has and hence alot of rumours have started.


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## Gilleni (Oct 18, 2005)

Foxysnake, you are wrong... it did say the number of hatchlings ready for sale, will make Roy an instant millionaire...

Now says.. the number of hatchlings ready for sale, will make Roy a happy man...


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## URS (Oct 18, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> Still can't see the attraction and that is pure Aussies...why care we only allowed to keep natives but have to pay 10k for a bloody plastic green thing that hangs there and doesn't move.
> 
> Having said that some of the exotic lines are beautiful with blues,brightyellow,flurogreens and even the black spotted ones look like they have mites LOL
> 
> Don't think you can even compare greens to albinos...greens breed greens and there's variation but albinos there is so much that can be done with them and not a greedy price to be asking imo and they haven't all been held onto and then the market flooded as seems like what will happen with Greens and rsp's which used to be rare as rcking horse crap but now black and white jungles are even rarer than them...



Brown,

Here is a couple that you might like then, all so these pitures have not been altered in any way at all!

Re URS


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## Franco (Oct 18, 2005)

Foxysnake - I tell it as I see it! The page has been changed!


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## Franco (Oct 18, 2005)

URS, are these animals in your collection or photos from overseas?

Absolutely stunning!


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## URS (Oct 18, 2005)

Franco said:


> URS, are these animals in your collection or photos from overseas?
> Absolutely stunning!



Franco,
These are here. 
Gold/yellow male is true Australian bred by Jo Bredl aprox 16years from GTP's that were taken under permit in Nth QLD many many years ago.

Blue phase female has taken a number of years to get this colour after each clutch she gets a better colour blue, this python was all so bred about 8 years ago by a keeper in Nth QLD and has produced some very good looking pythons for us.

Regards Tim


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## moosenoose (Oct 18, 2005)

> Jealous Snakies across the country seem to starting rumours that he hasn't actually bred them and bitch about the price... not all of us can afford the $9800 for a juvie... but rest assured they are worth every dollar!



They really aren't worth every dollar :lol: 

Someone buy one so I can pop over and have a gork at it! :lol: Do you get your money back if 2 months later something mysterious happens and it kicks the bucket? I suppose you'd be left no choice than to get it stuffed and use it as a very expensive doorstop hehehe


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## lutzd (Oct 18, 2005)

moosenoose said:


> > I suppose you'd be left no choice than to get it stuffed and use it as a very expensive doorstop hehehe
> 
> 
> 
> Nah Moosey! Just have it stuffed and drape it over a branch in the enclosure. No-one would notice the difference, as they usually just sit there anyway! ;-)


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## zulu (Oct 18, 2005)

*re GTP*



moosenoose said:


> > Jealous Snakies across the country seem to starting rumours that he hasn't actually bred them and bitch about the price... not all of us can afford the $9800 for a juvie... but rest assured they are worth every dollar!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 PMSL Moose :lol: The site has changed the instant millionaire to happy man,lot of codswollop written there no wonder it was changed,good at putting prices up there like the bredli hypos that shot up to 800 and blond macs went up,he is too pricey for me now ime battling at normal prices like 5000 bucks was a fair price really and there is more of them now 8) URS thanks for putting the pics up of the blues they are really nice


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## splitty (Oct 18, 2005)

So if you crossed the Blue GTP with the Yellow GTP would you get a green one ??? :lol: :lol:


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## pugsly (Oct 18, 2005)

That Blue one is amazing!! Now i would pay 10k for that!!

Well done to URS, awesome stuff.


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## Splitmore (Oct 18, 2005)

> PMSL Moose The site has changed the instant millionaire to happy man,lot of codswollop written there no wonder it was changed,


Your right on the money there zulu, that whole page is a load of tripe and I can't believe someone like Roy Pails would have that up there. The way it's written you'd think Roy is the first and only guy in the world to breed the things and to brag how much money your going to make out of it, before most of your babies have even hatched is just plain arrogant. I'd love to know what his 'top secret' incubation experiments are too seeing you can get on most breeders web sites or get a copy of Greg Maxwells book which outline in black and white how these guys achieve 100 % hatch rates. Why you'd try and 'experiment' with green eggs is beyond comprehension. These snakes have been on the market for about four weeks now and notice they are still for sale so he's got a long, long way to go before he makes his million dollars. I hope he has taken into account the fact that Tim, and quite a few others have greens in the incubator as well.


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## BROWNS (Oct 18, 2005)

Tim they are bloody nice the blue blows me away, and great to see one of Joe's still alive pure Aussie i've seen the original parentage of that animal.Still not worth the price tag even at $5k not for me anyway but the blue one yeah i'd pay 5k each for a few of those remembering youll need at least 3 hoping to get a pair.

Why wuld someone with Roys supposed reputation put up a load of crap and brag like he is,it's no big deal.


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## zulu (Oct 18, 2005)

splitty said:


> So if you crossed the Blue GTP with the Yellow GTP would you get a green one ??? :lol: :lol:


 LOL splitty pay that one :lol:


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## orsm (Oct 18, 2005)

wow.. URS.. that's one sexy snake..


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## Dicco (Oct 18, 2005)

URS said:


> Franco said:
> 
> 
> > URS, are these animals in your collection or photos from overseas?
> ...



Hi Tim,
I'm very interested to know what the situation of garanteed pure Australian Greens is, do you have a pair/s, are they still able to breed? Is there any one else out there you know of with real Aussie Greens?
Cheers
Richard


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## Dicco (Oct 18, 2005)

Oh, and Sdaji, I'd love a Rough Scale  , I find them to very attractive in my eyes, once they are more affordable I will be sure to obtain some. And I wouldn't mind paying the $5-7,000 for greens as an investment if they could be garenteed to be of Australian origin.


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## URS (Oct 19, 2005)

Hi Tim,
I'm very interested to know what the situation of garanteed pure Australian Greens is, do you have a pair/s, are they still able to breed? Is there any one else out there you know of with real Aussie Greens?
Cheers
Richard[/quote]

Hi Richard,

Yes pure AUS GTP's, I purchased them from G Gow before he sadly passed away with a number of other reptiles. Greame got them from Jo Bredl a number of years ago, Jo was one of the luck ones many years ago to get a take permit for them from QLD parks and wildlife, he did breed from the wild caught pythons, Peter I all so did have there DNA checked here in the SA museum just to make sure. Yes I do have a pair of them here. They are still able to breed I believe and I was very close to that this year but the female was a bit under weight so everything crossed for next year.

As for other people having Aus GTP I would not have a clue whats out there in collections.

Regards Tim Mensforth
www.ultimatereptiles.com.au


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## fishead (Oct 19, 2005)

Awesome stuff Tim, you've blown me away with those snakes mate. Have any of the younguns from the blue and the yellow inherited the colour or are they one of a kind?
Regards, Steve.


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## Retic (Oct 19, 2005)

When I visited a reptile breeding business up in the mountains in Bali a few years ago one of the saddest sights I have seen was a half eaten bright blue GTP on the ground outside of one of the big breeding pits. Apparently wild cats get a few of the animals every now and then.


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## Sdaji (Oct 20, 2005)

I don't like exotics, morphs or chondros, but I'd happily shell out $10,000 for a baby snake if it was going to turn into something like that blue girl! Well, that's if I had $10,000 to shell out  Most of the chondros I've seen have been quite ugly, especially the ones with yellow or worse still, black speckles - they look hideous! (yes, to me and maybe to you they... pretty... *urp*!)



> Oh, and Sdaji, I'd love a Rough Scale , I find them to very attractive in my eyes, once they are more affordable I will be sure to obtain some. And I wouldn't mind paying the $5-7,000 for greens as an investment if they could be garenteed to be of Australian origin.



Well, come and sit in the rough scaled waiting room with me, we have about 5-10 years to kill... do you play cards?

It isn't easy to be sure what's Australian, most aren't and despite what some say, there isn't a DNA test to confirm it. I hope at some stage some are allowed to be brought into captivity, but it doesn't seem likely in the near future. Maybe someone should point out to the QLD government that if they collected a small number of them, took them to the zoo, bred them and sold the babies to reptile keepers they could make a [email protected] load of money and help the species at the same time.


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## Dicco (Oct 20, 2005)

Hey Sdaji, I highly agree with everything you just said  , and I think it would be a great idea for conservation for a zoo to get a breeding group of Iron Range Greens and sell off some of the offspring. It would also be good for them to provide papers ect. stating their from that aussie line, possibly with DNA record proof(I have no idea if that is plausable or not, just a bit of an idea  )


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## Dicco (Oct 20, 2005)

Oh, and I'm sure I can pick up the various card games as we go


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## Sdaji (Oct 20, 2005)

> Oh, and I'm sure I can pick up the various card games as we go



I haven't played cards for years now, maybe we should go for trivial pursuit instead.

(you can go off topic if a thread goes past 7 pages, right?)


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## Dicco (Oct 20, 2005)

Haha, of cource  , and I think I have Trivial Pursuit stacked away in my room somewhere


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## Sdaji (Oct 20, 2005)

> Haha, of cource , and I think I have Trivial Pursuit stacked away in my room somewhere



Yeah, I thought I'd read that in the site rules somewhere near the end... 



> ....if any thread doth reach its eigth page, one may be allowed to assume that its value has ended and may exploit the entertainment potention thereof as they see fit



Yeah, I thought so.

We'll be trivial persuit masters by the time we get our cheap roughies!


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## flavirufus (Oct 20, 2005)

> there isn't a DNA test to confirm it



Actually, it is possible to obtain a very good estimate of the locality of many races of GTPs using current molecular analysis techniques.
Matt


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## BROWNS (Oct 20, 2005)

I would love to kno what locality or cross was used for the blue one it's amazing!If it were pure a head shot next to onee of the Aussies would be interesting to see.Also interesting that it's been mentioned many times Aussie greens haave the white dotted dorsal area to some degree yet those definite pure as Aussies have none.


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## Rossagon (Oct 20, 2005)

Yeah, As I recall most female GTP's "Blue" before laying. Some retain this blue for longer periods of time after laying. I think this may be the case for this particular animal.


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## Rossagon (Oct 20, 2005)

flavirufus said:


> > there isn't a DNA test to confirm it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think a bloke by the name of David Wilson was doing a comparison of DNA, Mitochondrial or whatever, between PNG and its surrounding islands and Aussies for his PHD at ANU. Don't know whether the results where conclusive. ( I haven't read any papers on it, thats why I can't say)

Cheers Rossco.


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## flavirufus (Oct 21, 2005)

Hi Rossco,
Dave Wilson was doing ecological studies on GTPs in Iron Range. His PhD was part of the conservation effort for this species in Australia. During his research he collected a lot of tissue samples that were used in the molecular study that I alluded to. One paper has been published and I think a second one is in print.
Matt


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## Sdaji (Oct 21, 2005)

> Hi Rossco,
> Dave Wilson was doing ecological studies on GTPs in Iron Range. His PhD was part of the conservation effort for this species in Australia. During his research he collected a lot of tissue samples that were used in the molecular study that I alluded to. One paper has been published and I think a second one is in print.
> Matt



There is still no conclusive test. You can (almost) conclusively say -some- individuals are -not- from Australia, but you can't be sure that an individual IS from Australia. Additionally, many hybrids can't be identified without sequencing their entire genome, and even then the analysis wouldn't be completely meaningful until about a zillion dollars had been spent analysing the DNA of all the populations. According to a simple genetic analysis, many Australian/exotic hybrids would show up as pure Australian (have you followed the whole "deemed" Australian chondro saga? Exotic chondros were "proven" or "deemed" to be pure Australian, when clearly they were not).

A whole lot of study and a whole lot of tissue samples may have a heap of value, but they don't necessarily produce a diagnostic test. Considering chondros are a recent arrival in Australia, it will probably never be possible to conclusively say based on DNA that any chondro is Australia, unless a specific mutation(s) could be shown to have occured here and not exist anywhere else. All the non mutational diversity in Australian chondros came from overseas, so if we see any alleles here, we can't be sure it isn't overseas as well (in fact, we can be close enough to certain that it is). Thus, the genetic makeup of any Australian chondro could also exist with the genetic material existant overseas, thus it is not possible to demonstrate conclusively (using DNA) that a chondro is Australian, unless they find a fixed endemic Australian allele or haplotype, which we can assume is not going to be the case.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Gilleni (Oct 21, 2005)

Yeah well said, im with you on this one...

I have no idea wht the hell that means, but it is more than enough jiberish to confuse anyone who disagrees...or planned to disagree...


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## Sdaji (Oct 21, 2005)

Carp, I forgot what DNA stands for on APS... even though I have a constant reminder

D o
N ot
A sk

D o
N ot
A nswer

Oops!


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## zulu (Oct 21, 2005)

*re GTP*

Well stated sadj,so your saying they cant tell the difference when someone brings in a container full,lets rock and roll 8)


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## Sdaji (Oct 21, 2005)

> Well stated sadj,so your saying they cant tell the difference when someone brings in a container full,lets rock and roll



You can pick many (not all) of the exotics as exotics, but not confirm the Australian chondros as Australian. Chondros are boring anyway! I'm glad I don't like them, I'd have to worry about all this rubbish!


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## BROWNS (Oct 21, 2005)

Some races tho are easily recognised as not Aussies having different head shapes.

I'm guessing any green even blue ones which i'm sure aren't Aussies and if anoother pure or mixed locality other than an Oz green crossed with an Aussie green you wouldn't be able to tell tooo much from the dna would you?

I understand the whole deemed thing as they are very closely related races and were probbly one at one time but could they tell if a non Southern Mreaukea race PNG or any other exotic green crossed with an Aussie could be identified as definitely not Aussie unlike the deemed line?

I'll go ya halves in a container of red and blue babies zuludude just hang onto em till they go through that colour change 8)


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## zulu (Oct 21, 2005)

*re GTP*

Yeh the thing with chondros in australia is that people seem to buy any available regardless of color,some are a reall nice greenor blue while others are washed out looking green.They arnt all created equal,some morphs etc on the chondro site are just abortions to the eyeballs,the freddo green is best IMO


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## BROWNS (Oct 21, 2005)

Yep zulu i've seen an absolutely stunning green and it's sister was dingo ugly ...i reckon unless they're pure Aussies they will not breed true and obviously there's variation in Aussies too not just drab green with spotted white dorsal area but some very vibrant ones also.

I still remember seeing the actual parentage to the all bright green pure Aussie of Tims I'm sure and they had the white spotted dorsal markings down most of the body and the babaies were wicked bright yellow...if they only stayed like that and i wish i'd have realised how rare pure Aussies would be now.

Irwin has em why doesn't he breed them?He has 27 greens but obee mentioned from the 7 Aussies he had he has now only 2?


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## peterescue (Oct 21, 2005)

If I have to agree with John Deutscher then Im not going to be involved in the discussion.
Just behave yourselves. Bye


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## Sdaji (Oct 21, 2005)

> No i never believe everything oor anything people say unless it's known as fact


 


> i reckon unless they're pure Aussies they will not breed true



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 



> If I have to agree with John Deutscher then Im not going to be involved in the discussion.
> Just behave yourselves. Bye



:cry: :cry: :cry: 

:lol:


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## moosenoose (Oct 21, 2005)

Sdaji said:


> but I'd happily shell out $10,000 for a baby snake if it was going to turn into something like that



I wouldn't, not that I am able to anyway, pay 10k for anything in relation to a pet! Dog, horse, cow, llama, 2 headed goat - it's sheer madness! But hey, that's my opinion...as quirky as it is! :lol:


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## moosenoose (Oct 21, 2005)

ps: The only reason this thread is going is because the price is a joke, and in addition, nobody can believe the price hike!

Not that I give a rats. Thought my post count needed improving!


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## BROWNS (Oct 21, 2005)

Has anyone ever seen turnip looking trainspotters :roll: :lol:


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## zulu (Oct 21, 2005)

*re GTP*

Its here for free advertising,URS pay for there advertising on this site,thankgod someone does or slatey would have to sell his pecker as well as his balls


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## zulu (Oct 22, 2005)

*re GTP*



BROWNS said:


> Has anyone ever seen turnip looking trainspotters :roll: :lol:


 LoLz browns,ime getting worried though mate,sadji is making so much sense lately and even peter agrees with him,and he took on the righteous brothers Hix and Jeff Hardy about there blind support for the RSPCA chicken toy campain rubbish :shock:


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## flavirufus (Oct 22, 2005)

> it is possible to obtain a very good estimate





> You can (almost) conclusively say



Sounds like we agree John?

Of course, its virtually impossible to rule out the possibility of any Australian haplotypes being in PNG and vice versa without sampling virtually every individual. My main point was that this doesn't mean a useful test for distinguishing between races doesn't exist. For example, molecular taxonomy doesn?t require 100% proof to distinguish between species either, yet the species concept still has some validity. We're really both just nit picking, but so be it.

All Australian/exotic hybrids actually show up as whatever race their maternal lineage originates from. None of the cases I'm familiar with have shown up as "pure Aussie". I'm surprised you'd refer to that "deemed Australian" thread, as it was full of inaccuracies and the most vocal in it were using third or fourth hand information.

Matt


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## Sdaji (Oct 22, 2005)

> Sounds like we agree John?



On some things, no doubt, but your quotes are nastily out of context. You haven't included what I was refering to in them. If you read the full version of those quotes, you'll see I'm not talking about confirming Australian chondros as Australian chondros.

As you now say, there isn't a definitive DNA test available to confirm an Australian chondro as such. Without sampling virtually every individual it's not possible. We can make some guesses, but it's not definite. 



> All Australian/exotic hybrids actually show up as whatever race their maternal lineage originates from.



Is it only done with mitochondria at present? That's going to cause problems, especially when captive populations which may well have been crossed are concerned, but even with nuclear DNA you can't be sure after the F1 generation. For others reading; a mitochondrial analysis will show a hybrid to be a clone of its mother's mother's mother's mother's...... and not show any sign of any other genetic material in its genome (for the non geneticists: the rest is nuclear DNA and basically speaking, is the stuff which determines your phenotype - all the traits like colour, size, gender, temperament... all the things which control what you look like and how you'll behave... once again, basically speaking). For captive collections, mitochondrial analysis is not really appropriate, especially for chondros, because any hybrid will be identified as a clone of a pure animal!



> None of the cases I'm familiar with have shown up as "pure Aussie"



That doesn't surprise me at all, looks like we agree on something! (or at least don't disagree)  Good to have some common ground 



> I'm surprised you'd refer to that "deemed Australian" thread, as it was full of inaccuracies and the most vocal in it were using third or fourth hand information.



The 'deemed Australian" thread, as you say, was pathetic at best (more common ground  ). However, as you no doubt know, there are several people who claim to have tested their chondros and been given a confirmation that they are Australian (which has been false, either they are lying or the person who did the test is incompetent or lying), others have used this to (in some cases knowingly) falsely convince others that the offspring they are buying are Australian. The thread is rubbish as you say, but highlights some of the problems that can come from people thinking that geneticists can do things that they can't. This site is littered with absurdities on the topic, as you were pointing out.

As useful as the analyses may be in looking at phylogenies, populational origins etc, I think in this case, at present, they need to be used extremely carefully to avoid doing more harm than good and even if used properly probably have little value. Saying that there is a test available to determine that a chondro is Australian is misleading and this is quite damaging as it leads to dishonest breeders and "breeders" pretending to have taken this fictional test, or taking the results of their tests too seriously, allowing them to rip naive people off or themselves being fooled.



> ime getting worried though mate,sadji is making so much sense lately and even peter agrees with him



Yep, that's pretty friggin' worrying indeed! :shock:


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## fishead (Oct 24, 2005)

So sdaj therefore there's no way to genetically differentiate intergrade and pure diamonds then?


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## Morelia_Hunter (Oct 24, 2005)

We tried to get a northwesterns python that died in an airfreight accident sexed genetically. Can not be done, too many genes to choose from. It will be a very long time before this will be possible. The tests available to establish the origins of GTPs can only distinguish between animals from the north islands and animals from the south islands! Vague at best!


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## Sdaji (Oct 25, 2005)

> So sdaj therefore there's no way to genetically differentiate intergrade and pure diamonds then?



It's not simple enough a question to be answerable with a yes or no. I could say yes, but it would take a long time to describe and effectively/practically, the answer is no, at present. The terms "intergrade" and "pure diamond" are misnomers anyway. A diamond from Sydney is as much an intergrade as those wild snakes people started calling "intergrades" following Dave and Tracy Barker after they published their (otherwise very good) python book. At the time that book was written, it was strongly believed by the vast majority of people that diamond carpets and 'coastal' (another name coined by the Barkers in that book, they were previously called Brisbane carpets, or just carpets) carpets had juxtaposed distributions. The Barkers just assumed everyone was right, but this view is now not generally thought to be true, although everyone still seems to use the Barkers' secondary information, which was extrapolated from the original mistake. It's not surprising really, reptile people rarely seem to be too keen about getting this correct, they generally seem to just believe whatever version of the story they happen to hear.

Look up 'intergrade' in a biological dictionary and you'll find there won't be an entry. Look up hybrid and you'll see that it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with members of different species.

To understand what is and isn't possible with genetic testing isn't always simple or easy, even for people who have spent years studing genetics.



> We tried to get a northwesterns python that died in an airfreight accident sexed genetically. Can not be done, too many genes to choose from.



That's interesting to hear, I'd have thought they'd have that test developed by now. Once they've sorted out the technique it will become very easy and in time fairly cheap. All they have to do is look at the karyotype, looking at individual genes isn't necessary. I've karyotyped myself, we've karyotyped grasshoppers in the lab here, I think I even karyotyped insects in a second year genetics prac. Ask around, you may be able to find someone who can do it.


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## Dicco (Oct 25, 2005)

Agh, they were the ones came up with the name 'coastal'? No offence to them but that name is just stupid, most carpets can be found on the coast and McDowelli's range extends to more 'inland' area's.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Oct 25, 2005)

Thanks Sdaji for replying. I was told that by the breeder of that snake. I am sure you know the snake I am talking about. Unless he was telling an untruth.


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## pugsly (Oct 25, 2005)

Sooo... did anyone fork out the 10 grand and get one?!!!


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## Stevo (Oct 26, 2005)

I don't think people will admit if they did pugsly, especially after the recent Gtp thefts.


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## Sdaji (Oct 26, 2005)

> Thanks Sdaji for replying. I was told that by the breeder of that snake. I am sure you know the snake I am talking about. Unless he was telling an untruth.



I'm pretty sure it's the one I'm thinking of. I'll talk to the breeder at some stage and talk to them about it. I'll PM you about it now.


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## zulu (Oct 26, 2005)

*re GTP*

Fair dinkum sadji,i dont know where the barkers come into it worrell 1963 states "The dorrigo kempsey intergrade has assumed the general pattern of the carpet python and the coloration of the diamond python" and carpets were not refered to just as carpets in 60s and 70s.The ones described by richard wells as metcalfi were refered to as western carpets because they were diferent but undescribed,jungles were refered to as athertons cause they to were noted by worrell to be different.The coastal populatins of carpets were refered to as carpets.Back then sadji cogger onley had the australian reptiles in color book and the bible was Worrells,his book was brilliant stuff at the time.


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## Sdaji (Oct 26, 2005)

> Fair dinkum sadji,i dont know where the barkers come into it worrell 1963 states "The dorrigo kempsey intergrade has assumed the general pattern of the carpet python and the coloration of the diamond python"



As you say, zulu, the Barkers didn't coin the term intergrade, but it was their book which made it popular among Australian keepers; that's where they come into it. I didn't mean to imply that they had coined it, but on re reading my post, I can see how it could be interpreted that way, I said they coined the name 'coastal carpet', but it looks like I meant they had also coined 'intergrade' in that context, poor wording on my part, sorry and thanks for clearing it up in case anyone was being mislead.



> The ones described by richard wells as metcalfi were refered to as western carpets because they were diferent but undescribed,jungles were refered to as athertons cause they to were noted by worrell to be different



I don't know why you're talking about metcalfei or jungles, no one has mentioned them. I just said that when people refered to what are now refered to as 'coastal carpets', before the Barkers' book, they -usually- refered to them as Brisbane carpets, or just carpets. As recently as about five years ago it was still quite common for people think of all carpets other than diamond carpets to just be 'carpets', even though most by then knew better and many had known decades earlier. Obviously if they were using the name 'Brisbane' carpet, they knew there were different types elsewhere. I'm well aware of Wells' taxonomy and no doubt you're aware of the controversy around it, but that's a completely different story.



> Back then sadji cogger onley had the australian reptiles in color book and the bible was Worrells,his book was brilliant stuff at the time.



Uh huh. That one of Cogger's was one of my first herp books and although it's now in tatters and in many ways outdated, I still have it. I don't have a copy of Worrell's old bible and haven't looked at one for a few years.


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## zulu (Oct 26, 2005)

*re GTP*

Fair enough sadji,yeh i see what you mean about just refering to coastals  Cheers colin.


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## BROWNS (Oct 26, 2005)

:lol:


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## zulu (Oct 26, 2005)

*re GTP*

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Yeh brownsit gos nowhere intergrade debate,but sadj has god points to make with diamond carpet etc and i like to hear them its just bits of it like the intergrade thingyOH NO!!!! :lol:


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## womas4me (Oct 26, 2005)

whats an intergrade, is it the same as a hybrid?


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## zulu (Oct 26, 2005)

*re GTP*

O NO :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## moosenoose (Oct 26, 2005)

womas4me said:


> whats an intergrade, is it the same as a hybrid?



Don't tell me you don't know!! :shock: :twisted: :lol:


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## zulu (Oct 26, 2005)

*re GTP*

8) Womas is just a former MTT druitt escapee,they had to do a makeover and remove one of his heads so he could fit in to society on the outside


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## womas4me (Oct 26, 2005)

A druitt escapee my butt. I realised i didn't fit in when i had paint on my car, covering up the wonderful lustre of undercoat. What was i thinking???


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## zulu (Oct 27, 2005)

*re GTP*

Come on now womas you know painting is an artistic and cultural activity here in MT Druitt its therapy for the shakes  Cheers colin.


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