# Snake ID - Kimberley Western Australia



## Bench_Warmer01 (May 15, 2010)

I saw this snake over a 3 day period at night in the staff accomodation area at work, and after the last king brown here had boiling water and huge rocks thrown on it, ( before I arrived) There's no way i'd let any reptile suffer that fate here. 

Anyway, I caught it and relocated it after missing it 3 times, it was around 70-80cm long, thin and slender, very small head, scale arrangment is slighlty different to any mulga ive seen, in the dark what i got it i presumed p.australis, but after photographing it upon release i had a closer look and believe this to be a false/pygmy mulga or an unknown subspecies, and I ended up catching and relocating another snake a - p.australias the next day, and it looked totally different.


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## Elapidae1 (May 15, 2010)

Not 100% but I would say mulga, P. australis


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## $NaKe PiMp (May 15, 2010)

when you say scale arrangment was different ,what did you mean?? how did it differ from other _P.australis_.There is study done into this species suggesting from data collected that in _P.australis_ can be divided into 5 species.The paper is called" Phylogeography of Australias king brown snake
(Pseudechis australis) reveals Pliocene divergence
and Pleistocene dispersal of a top predator"
I dont know if there is distinct morphological differences between them,will have to have a good read for my own curiosity sake now.


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## ShaneBlack (May 15, 2010)

weigeli


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## Jonno from ERD (May 15, 2010)

If anybody would like the paper Snake Pimp mentioned, email me at [email protected] and I will forward it to you. 

As Shane said, it's _Pseudechis weigeli_.


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2010)

Gavin Bedford has/had some of these on Display at crocosaurus aswell as what i assume are 'darwin' weigeli. They were named differently (i'm assuming by Gavin) i don't remember if they used a different scientific name or just common name but it was somethign along the lines of 'kimberly pygmy rock mulga.' Just incase you wanted to know.


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## Slats (May 15, 2010)

Every Pygmy mulga I have ever seen has had three distinct lateral bars down the top of its nape.
This doesn't.


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## Jonno from ERD (May 15, 2010)

Hi Slats,

There are three species of Pygmy Mulga - one from the Kimberley, one from Katherine/Top End and one from the Mt Isa area.


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## Jonno from ERD (May 15, 2010)

Hmm, after having a quick chat with Bryan Fry, it seems I was wrong! Whilst it was assumed that there were three species from the above mentioned localities, it seems they are indeed one, continuous species right across. However, there are still only three species (with three other possibles offshore), with the other two coming from desert regions.


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## $NaKe PiMp (May 16, 2010)

very intersting these thread,i wish there where more threads like it


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## Bench_Warmer01 (May 17, 2010)

Glad to know it was indeed a p.weigelii, and i made the correct assumption,thanks shane and jonno. Snakes everywhere here, i now have the ''snake guy'' reputation so instead of the shovel they call me now, Its a bad place for snakes, even olive pythons get killed because they 'may' prey on the chickens, I', beginning my search for v.glebopalma and v.glauteri on my days off, also finding a live BHP will be nice..


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## carpetmuncher (May 17, 2010)

jonno, when you use the word 'species', do you mean 'populations', as it makes no sense, you can't describe one species as being 3 or 6 species.


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2010)

What he means is that within the one currently described species of weigelii there are more undescribed species. You could compare it to what happened recently with the nuchalis group.



carpetmucher said:


> jonno, when you use the word 'species', do you mean 'populations', as it makes no sense, you can't describe one species as being 3 or 6 species.


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## Elapidae1 (May 17, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> What he means is that within the one currently described species of weigelii there are more undescribed species. You could compare it to what happened recently with the nuchalis group.



Has nuchalis group been split into subspecies? How many? What are they? I thought this was put in the to hard basket, I understand that chromosonal research has shown there is several different subspecies but I think this is the only way to separate them.

Jonno and Oxydechis What is it in benchwarmers pictures that tells you it's weigeli and not australis, the only thing that strikes me is the colour doesn't appear as uniform as the king browns I have come across in these pics the it appears to be slightly mottled.


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## H.bitorquatus (May 17, 2010)

Pseudonaja aspidorhyncha, Pseudonaja mengdeni, Pseudonaja nuchalis is now what nuchalis is made up of. 

If Oxydechis said it was a weigeli, I would take his word, He would be one of the people who I would think would know.


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## Elapidae1 (May 17, 2010)

H.bitorquatus said:


> Pseudonaja aspidorhyncha, Pseudonaja mengdeni, Pseudonaja nuchalis is now what nuchalis is made up of.
> 
> If Oxydechis said it was a weigeli, I would take his word, He would be one of the people who I would think would know.



I am certainly not questioning because I think he is wrong, I am trying to increase my knowledge by asking what in the photo gives it away because it just looks like australis to me.

Steve


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## Elapidae1 (May 17, 2010)

already posted


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2010)

Steve as H.bit said, here's a thread Jonno made with a short description of each. http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-discussion-42/pseudonaja-taxonomy-100292


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## eipper (May 17, 2010)

Its a weigeli no question.....as for morphological difference between them and australis... maroon marking along the nape, much more slender build, smaller adult size and that the subcaudals are single vs divided.

Cheers,
Scott


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## Elapidae1 (May 17, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Steve as H.bit said, here's a thread Jonno made with a short description of each. http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-discussion-42/pseudonaja-taxonomy-100292



Is this splitting of P.nuchalis generally accepted, I mean visually there is obviously huge differences in appearance between specimens, most obviously the orange body and black head of P. mengdeni but I would have thought that they would overlap and naturally intergrade all to often. Experienced herpers have often had troubles between P. nuchalis and P affinis and these are believed to intergrade


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## Elapidae1 (May 17, 2010)

Thanks Scott


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## PilbaraPythons (May 17, 2010)

The single sub-caudals V single and divided should not be given too much wieght. In the coastal plains of Pilbara I have found more than a few mulgas that have single sub-caudals only.


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## Bushfire (May 18, 2010)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Hmm, after having a quick chat with Bryan Fry, it seems I was wrong! Whilst it was assumed that there were three species from the above mentioned localities, it seems they are indeed one, continuous species right across. However, there are still only three species (with three other possibles offshore), with the other two coming from desert regions.



Im not sure of the island stuff but I was sure the DNA pointed to three seperate mainland populations. Its abit hard to imagine they are all one. 
P.weigeli (Kimberley) = heavy mottling
P.pailsei (Mount Isa) = plain
P.sp (NT) = somewhat of an intermediate between the above two.


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## carpetmuncher (May 18, 2010)

eipper said:


> Its a weigeli no question.....as for morphological difference between them and australis... maroon marking along the nape, much more slender build, smaller adult size and that the subcaudals are single vs divided.
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott


 
maybe so, but can you tell all that from the photo?


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## waruikazi (May 18, 2010)

Asking the wrong person but i assume it is. The full time herpers i know have all accepted it.



steve1 said:


> Is this splitting of P.nuchalis generally accepted, I mean visually there is obviously huge differences in appearance between specimens, most obviously the orange body and black head of P. mengdeni but I would have thought that they would overlap and naturally intergrade all to often. Experienced herpers have often had troubles between P. nuchalis and P affinis and these are believed to intergrade


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## Hemiaspis (May 18, 2010)

It's definately P. weigeli. From the photo, the main feature that gives it away for me is the mottling in the dorsal pattern. Kimberly P. australis are much more subtle in dorsal pattern. Sometimes the mottling on Kimberly P. weigeli is so heavy, the three magenta lines on the nape, occur as spotting. Check out my photo album for additional pics of P. weigeli.


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## Elapidae1 (May 18, 2010)

Thanks Hemiaspis. I have never had much reason to look into P.weigeli and the scale shape automatically made me think the pics in this thread were P.australis, I did however pick up on the mottling but just presumed it to be a different form. The pics in your album are great and the first one in particular clearly displays the mottling and magenta stripes


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## eipper (May 20, 2010)

Carpet muncher,

Certainly 2 are plainly obvious.....

Steve,

Aspidorhyncha, mengdeni and nuchalis are accepted by most that I know and a few reckon there may be more

Cheers,
Scott


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