# touchy subject trophies



## [email protected] (Aug 5, 2012)

one thing that really gets to me is that people that call themselves game hunters and then show of there kill as a trophie,. to me that's really weird . how can you get a kick out of killing something so innocent just for a trophie, what is wrong with this world. like these people that pose with there kill and gun . Im glad i never turned out that way, even living up on a farm with a gun and plenty to shoot i never shot a thing, only thing i ever shot was a sheep that had been injured and was in serious pain that it could not survive. my dad never shot anything only his dog after it killed the neighbours sheep and even then that was a very hard thing for my farther to do. i guess some people just don't no any better or that they cant see the big picture. what brought this to mine was that i was driving yesterday and a guy had a fresh kill ,head of wild pig attached to his truck driving along nsw newcastle rd like to me thats offensive and kids don't need to see that.


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## sutto75 (Aug 5, 2012)

Just because you think it’s weird doesn’t make it wrong or people who do it should be bagged for doing it.
Most of my friends think I'm weird for having snakes as pets but don't bag or say I'm glad I never turned out like that.
I love animals but when I was younger and more to the point allowed by the boss loved going out and helping some farmers hunt and kill pigs and roos.
Each to their own and people should not judge because it’s not something you would do. Its not illegal


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## JM1982 (Aug 5, 2012)

sutto75 said:


> Each to their own and people should not judge because it’s not something you would do. Its not illegal


+1


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## thomasssss (Aug 5, 2012)

im with sutto on this one , i shoot myself but very rarely do i shoot at anything alive , only ever shot rabbits on a mates farm which is for a reason , their a pest , same as wild pigs , sure there are those who go out and blow away anything that moves but the majority arnt like that , you shouldn't label a whole as bad just because of the minority 

i actually read an article in a hunting magazine recently where some hunters where making nesting boxes for ducks to nest in during the off season 

so we arnt all a bunch of Rambos that are out there to put a hole in anything that moves


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## caliherp (Aug 5, 2012)

Although i have never went hunting, I'm on the fence about taking pictures of your kill. But as long as you eat what you kill I have no problem with it.


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## Renenet (Aug 5, 2012)

I've never understood why people go out and shoot a beautiful animal for fun, have their picture taken with it and bring it home to stuff and mount.

But it's not as simple as hating the hunter. In Australia we have multitudes of feral animals that are causing an ecological disaster. Wild pigs, goats, buffalo, cats and dogs all threaten our ecosystems and our native wildlife. We need to control their numbers somehow. Culling with guns is one way to do it and more humane than poison if it's a clean kill.


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 5, 2012)

I don't have a problem with hunting, especially ferals, good on those people contributing to preserving native fauna and flora by eliminating introduced pest provided it is humane with no or minimal suffering.

The only issue I have is game farms that breed endangered species (sable antelope, Scimitar horned oryx) for the hunting industry and then jump on the conservation bandwagon. Just because a species has a growing captive population does not mean it is contributing anything to their wild counterparts. Many game breeders don't participate in reintroduction programs or even donate a percentage of income to in situ conservation, the income only goes back into the captive ranch. If your going to do this then at least call it like it is, saying that you are securing the sustainability of the captive population of an endangered animal is still important, but trying to put a pretty bow on it with talk of conservation diminishes their credibility to me personally.


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## jairusthevirus21 (Aug 5, 2012)

Look i used to go shooting on occasion myself for foxes, rabbits and so on. Now that im involved more with Fauna rescue work. Its not so much. (for some reason) I see exactly what ELAPID is saying tho. Its not the act of shooting itself. Its perhaps the thought processes that are behind it. I guess what im trying to say is that If you go out for the 'thrill' (and pig hunting is pretty intense) or Enjoyment of the kill. What questions does that raise? Do you enjoy killing? What happened to you as a child to take pleasure in killing? I understand that this affection is for only a few shooters out there.... but there is enough of them.
ON THE OTHER HAND! The human instinct to kill is perfectly natural.... its not disgusting, its not even weird. Its actually quite normal from an instinctual point of view. Those little endorphins that get released after a kill or intense hunt is probably part of our survival strategy. Every shooter will justify their hobby to themselves and that is what matters. regardless whether its for feral control, humane ultimatums or pleasure.
but the question must be asked.... Do you enjoy killing??


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## Flaviruthless (Aug 5, 2012)

If it's a feral animal and it is killed swiftly and humanely I am all for killing them - how else can we hope to one day control their numbers? As for taking photos after it's dead, I don't know. It's up to the individual. If the price everyone pays for someone removing a feral pest from the wild is to feel a little uncomfortable if we stumble upon pictures of a hunter posing, I'll happily pay it.


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## snakefreak16 (Aug 5, 2012)

i agree with [email protected] why do we need to kill things its not there fault they are ferral so i dont think killing is the right way to go about anything!!! unless it is nessesary


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## jairusthevirus21 (Aug 5, 2012)

No its not right i guess but it is the only way to go about controlling feral populations...


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## Daryl_H (Aug 5, 2012)

im a bow hunter and the skill knowledge of enviroment eco system animal behavior ect is way above most peoples undestanding as ill have to find prey stalk in on it to often under 20 meters and be sure 1 shot 1 KILL some times you'll spend 3 days and walk 25 km just tring to get a good shot off so a photo of all my hard work is deserved. .... is it any diff to takeing a photo of a fish you have caught if so // where do YOU draw the line? and who says YOU draw that line!!!

i dont enjoy KILLING i enjoy being out in real nature and all that comes with it ... but i do enjoy the hunt im no red neck that blows away anything that moves i hunt witha bow and have ethics that i follow. 1 shot 1 kill if i am not sure of a quick kill i wont take the shot


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## Jeannine (Aug 5, 2012)

i love how people say ' i would NEVER/have NEVER shot/killed anything' then go onto say how they shot a sheep/dog/rabbit, here is a news flash folks you HAVE shot/killed something

here is another news flash, 'feral' animals are responsible for the destruction of naturally habitat and native animals, lets all repeat after me CANE TOADS


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## jonez (Aug 5, 2012)

I find it amusing that people belive that it is wrong and cruel and all this other crap but me and my broter have shot at the same property for years mainly rabbits and without doubt every time we there there are still a hell of alot of bunnys in the same spot... People need to relise that most shooters shoot introduced species!! So in a way its the same argument as y most of us on here wont keep exotic pythons? The dont belong her and ruin our native flora and fauna so since they are here and so over populated y not have abit of fun and shoot the lil buggers.. Also alot of effort goes into gettin those trophies mate its not asif they are shootin an animal that will just stand there whilst u take ur shot..


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## Leasdraco (Aug 5, 2012)

I dont like the idea of killing animals myself but I stand by hunting if it has a practical purpose.for food,control of pest species,etc.but i dont get hunting as a sport,though i dont judge people that do its their way of life.

Food for thought,in Africa there a game parks that breed animals like cheetahs for the sole purpose of being shot for sport.i find the idea disturbing but the argument is that its no different to tracking down and killing any other animal.the animals are captive bred so there is no chance of being released into the wild as they will only be shot by farmers.


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## Radar (Aug 5, 2012)

I'll say it. If it's feral, I love the kill. I have no desire to even look twice at a native animal, in fact I volunteered my time for 10 years to raise and rehab injured native wildlife. Nothing 'happened' to me as a child, I'm the second of 2 children, my mother is a school principal and my dad works in a hospital, but was a panel beater for most of my childhood. I've always loved animals and was never without my own personal zoo. I did well in school, got an OP5, a double degree (science based), have worked in wildlife parks and my current job paid job is FIFO rescuing wildlife from throughout QLD. I have always had steady relationships, never fought unnecessarily, haven't had a beer in over a month. Having said all that, I've been shooting in one form or another since I was 9. I didn't grow up around guns, I took it on myself to get my license after years of bowhunting. I love being out in the bush, birdwatching, herping, rockclimbing/abseiling, taking photos and I sure love shooting ferals. I do actually enjoy knowing that I am doing one more thing to help the environment. Even when I was a kid I built myself an air rifle so I could shoot the myna birds around our yard that were kicking the native parrots out of their nesting logs. 

Im my honest opinion, and everyone has one, if you blow away a nice boar you may as well take a photo. Better still take the tusks. Like every pastime, there are always tossers, there are bad drivers, unhygienic cooks, taxi drivers that don't speak english, kids that rob pensioners. It doesn't mean all drivers, cooks, taxi drivers and kids are bad people. 

Nothing like a good hunt to give our already wrecked environment a hand.


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 5, 2012)

If there was no hunting we would all be living with dangerous animals all around us. im all for hunting, i plan on going one day. feral animals dont belong in australia, they are killing our native wildlife.


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## borntobnude (Aug 5, 2012)

If its FERAL shoot it if you dont know don't shoot it
learn to spot a feral !!!
I loved shooting rabbits as a little boy with my grandfather and his 303 outside of coota ,funny we never did find many of the bodies


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Aug 5, 2012)

As far as I'm concerned if its feral its in peril. I can argue all I want that I don't like killing, but I must, if I didn't I would just go target shooting. I get a thrill from the kill, I don't know why, frankly I don't care. I just go with it, I can't change how I feel so I just roll with it.


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## ZsaZsaGaboa (Aug 5, 2012)

Just throwing in my 2 cents.

I believe that people have the same mental capacity as the animals they hunt. If we were half as evolved or intelligent as we would like to think, we'd have a better way of dealing with threats to our natural environment.
Hunting for sport or pleasure, and not necessity, is both primitive and barbaric. I have absolutely no respect for "_people" (and I use that term loosely) _that hunt for those reasons.

_
*My opinion only, don't shoot me down. I appreciate that everybody has their own opinion and I'm not looking for an argument.*_


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## Blake182 (Aug 5, 2012)

umm there's no difrents between Fishing and shoting 
i think most people that dont like huntig/shoting like fishing. 
i love fishing


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## [email protected] (Aug 5, 2012)

yeah those that hunt to eat or pest control, yeah to me that's way of life, but i wont and never will agree with killing for pride or show.
yes this is a touchy subject. 
some people get very defensive about there guns lol


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## smeejason (Aug 5, 2012)

ZsaZsaGaboa said:


> Just throwing in my 2 cents.
> 
> I believe that people have the same mental capacity as the animals they hunt. If we were half as evolved or intelligent as we would like to think, we'd have a better way of dealing with threats to our natural environment.
> Hunting for sport or pleasure, and not necessity, is both primitive and barbaric. I have absolutely no respect for "_people" (and I use that term loosely) _that hunt for those reasons.
> ...


So you do not respect doctors , lawyers ,teachers, ministers that I personally know hunt let alone royalty a world motor bike champ and countless other sports stars that hunt.. 
I have no respect for the ignorant ..


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Aug 5, 2012)

ZsaZsaGaboa said:


> Just throwing in my 2 cents.
> 
> I believe that people have the same mental capacity as the animals they hunt. If we were half as evolved or intelligent as we would like to think, we'd have a better way of dealing with threats to our natural environment.
> Hunting for sport or pleasure, and not necessity, is both primitive and barbaric. I have absolutely no respect for "_people" (and I use that term loosely) _that hunt for those reasons.
> ...



I think a lot of "people" probably just lost respect for you too. I'm a voter, a father, a soldier, a herper and a hunter. I'm no less a "person" than you because of the last one...


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## [email protected] (Aug 5, 2012)

Food for thought,in Africa there a game parks that breed animals like cheetahs for the sole purpose of being shot for sport.i find the idea disturbing but the argument is that its no different to tracking down and killing any other animal.the animals are captive bred so there is no chance of being released into the wild as they will only be shot by farmers.[/QUOTE]

yeah that makes my blood boil


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## 43nickw (Aug 5, 2012)

as a person who has hunted feral animals for over 30 years, i love it, but i agree there is no need to drive down the road with fresh kill hangin off your car, thats stupid. but have you guys seen the damage pigs cause, or any amount of native wildlife we loose to cats foxes and wild dogs, just to name a few. controlled kulling is an important part to sustain our wildlife. in the snowy mountains i traped over 100 feral cats in 1 year, some as big as small dogs, and as savage as a rockwieler. Just emagine what wildlife they had eaten. for sport i shoot clay pigeons,:evil: am i a bad person


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## Radar (Aug 5, 2012)

I believe we are smart enough to have alternative ways to deal with threats to our natural environment as well, I'll give you that. I also believe, as a race, we are smart enough to make good use of sustainable energy sources, smart enough to deal with poverty in first world countries if not every country, smart enough to provide free education at all levels so people with brains can become what they want, regardless of financial background and generally smart enough to be nice to strangers. But none of those other things have happened and probably won't. 

People do get touchy about their guns, you're certainly right. But the same as people get touchy about their reptiles - very similar actually. People that legally keep reptiles, you and me, are often represented as criminals, and associated with drugs and illegal weapons busts. We're looked at by large parts of the community as weirdos. Some reptiles have the potential to kill - very quickly, but in all reality if kept properly and appropriate safety measures taken, it should all be safe. Accidents do happen though. Imagine herpers reactions if all of a sudden more restrictions were imposed because a few idiots did the wrong thing and then we couldn't keep reptiles anymore? If you're a law abiding firearms owner you're in the same boat. You obey all the laws, lots of them, you fork out huge amounts of money to have the privilege (as it is no longer a right in Australia to own a gun...), you cop all the rubbish from people that have no idea about your hobby because having guns makes you a bad person, and you practice safety measures like the herpkeeping world has never seen. Yet someone with ILLEGALLY OWNED firearms goes and shoots up a Bikie residence and the answer is taking the legal firearms off the people that are doing the right thing? The thing about laws is they are only there for people who choose to obey them, just like stop signs on the road. You can either stop, or not, it's up to you. This was not a rant, just food for thought. You'd be fairly surprised how many people you know probably own guns, but don't mention it because of the stigma attached to it. It's generally not something you mention to new friends unless you meet them at the range.


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## shell477 (Aug 5, 2012)

Those darn clay pigeons!
(I cant hit one to save my life!)


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## Flaviruthless (Aug 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> yeah that makes my blood boil



Why? It provides a stable income and food for many people as well as encouraging the management of animals. In the case of the Sable antelope it may well have saved the species. I don't understand why people would want to kill a beautiful native animal in its environment but to me paying for it and supporting the community to do so is a lot better than poaching.


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## [email protected] (Aug 5, 2012)

I no every thing sounds great and easy in a perfect world and its never going to be perfect, cause we are the ones to blame for that . our instinct to survive is what has driven this world to become what it is. money ,greed and lies. on the other hand I still enjoy a nice rump steak lol


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## thomasssss (Aug 5, 2012)

ZsaZsaGaboa said:


> Just throwing in my 2 cents.
> 
> I believe that people have the same mental capacity as the animals they hunt. If we were half as evolved or intelligent as we would like to think, we'd have a better way of dealing with threats to our natural environment.
> Hunting for sport or pleasure, and not necessity, is both primitive and barbaric. I have absolutely no respect for "_people" (and I use that term loosely) _that hunt for those reasons.
> ...


ive never seen a rabbit typing on a computer , driving a car or doing mathematics so i kinda think im a little more intelligent than them 

we do have other ways of dealing with pests one of them is poison baits but the problem with that it we dont know whats eating them in the end , so shooting an animal that you can id as a pest and not a native is alot better than baiting especially when its a reasonably good shot 

oi_itz_blake96 , how is fishing any different apart from the equipment used and the game targeted , the fish is jagged in the mouth with a hook and then forced towards the boat or the shore line whilst it struggles against it thrashing its head from side to side trying to throw the hook from its mouth , then its taken out of the water where it cant breathe (or what ever goes on there im no scientist) and is left to suffocate to death or released in some cases , talk about barbaric even if you do practice catch and release

i should add i have no problem with fishing at all , my dad was a commercial fisherman for years and ive done my fair share of fishing over the years myself but in a way it is a kind of hunting , if you look hunting up in the dictionary it doesn't say its excluded to just guns and bows it is "the activity of hunting wild animals or game for food or sport " , what do they call it when they go marlin fishing , oh yea thats right big game fishing


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## Daryl_H (Aug 5, 2012)

TO ALL THE PEOPLE THAT SAY WE ARE SMARTER AND THERE IS A BETTER WAY to deal with feral..... IF there is, its NOT working and not much else is being done (we HUNTERS ARE doing something more than just sitting back and being keyboard warriors. WE are being pro active 95% of you would eat meat but wouldnt have the stones to do what needs to be done to make that steak magic onto your plate... so i suggest you muzzel yourself and let the people with a real understanding of LIFE do what they do...
Daryl


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## jairusthevirus21 (Aug 5, 2012)

The "Drawing the line" comment just got me thinking... where is the line then..? Il think il take up Whaling tomorrow! Apparently they are tasty lol. ha ha ha


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 5, 2012)

Flaviruthless, it gets me annoyed when game ranches undertake these actions and then claim they are conserving species when they do nothing of true value towards conserving a species in it's natural habitat. I'm not saying they have no value but they are trying to cherry coat things. Fair enough some do contribute but the majority hide behind the veil of conservation. Also not all ranchers give as much back to the community, sometimes it is solely an economic industry.

The case of Sable antelope, yes they were successfully repopulated via captive breeding programs, and those people deserve recognition for that. But now any ranch that has Sables jumps on the band wagon about how they are saving them when they had no contribution to their success and still contribute nothing towards conservation apart from boosting the captive population. With any captive population there is genetic depression over time, Ranchers are also selectively breeding for trophies (largest horns etc) this artificial selective pressure has a negative influence on the possibility of any valuable conservation efforts out of the captive stock.

Stepping away from the ranch side of the debate and to the practice of trophy hunting wildlife that many people don't acknowledge:
The hunting of certain species is never as simple as taking one individual out of a population. My two examples are elephants and lions but there are more. Trophy hunters shoot the big impressive animals which includes the elephant matriarch and the pride male lion, in each case it has a devastating flow on effect. Studies have shown that removing the matriarch from a herd reduces the survivorship of the herd members as all the knowledge used to guide the herd is held by the matriarch, also there were many incidents of young elephants who witnessed the death of a mother growing up with 'psychotic' tendencies such as attacking people and animals and raping other species. When a pride male lion is killed the whole pride is thrown into disarray, once a nomad male or bachelor group take over the pride the cubs are killed along with any subadults that don't flee and even if they manage to leave they do not possess the necessary survival skills, by killing one male there is the potential to wipe out several generations of genetics.

Also by legalizing the trade in some wildlife products it gives an avenue for black market trade, just look at the elephant ivory scenario. So some legal practices give avenues for illegal poaching to occur.

That is my personal answer to your question of why, and none of what I said was directed at you or your views, just my answers. Despite what's said above I still maintain hunting is not a bad thing in itself, apart from hunting big cats and elephants.


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## james.5 (Aug 5, 2012)

I am all for hunting if done for the right reasons and the animals are killed quickly and as humanely. 

I think the idea of killing an animal because it is feral is wrong. 1 dead animal wont change anything. I guess if you and a bunch of mates organise a shoot and spend a few days blitzing it then that's good. 1 dead rabbit is no different to 1 dead kangaroo to me. I love Australian wildlife and absolutely hate to see ferals take over, but killing a few ferals does nothing on the war against them.


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## mungus (Aug 5, 2012)

I trophy Hunt & Fish therefore I'm a blood thirsty killer....................
Get real and get a life !
Ahhhh feel better know !


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## Sinners121 (Aug 5, 2012)

first of all i enjoy hunting. There is a feeling that is very hard to explain unless you try it. Secondly dont knock it till you try or at least get out there and see whats happening. there is a few different things being said in this thread so here goes. 

first of all there are many methods for controlling feral animals other than hunting trapping, posions and even sterilisation's. First of all sterilisations are a terrible idea they are often jumped on by the anti-hunting brigade, but at the end of the day they are more expensive, more time consuming and the animal if left alive to continue destruction on our native wildlife. Also there is no promise that the animal trapped and sterilised is the alpha of the area. Posions are only effective if done in the right doses and trapping needs to be checked twice a day to be human. So at the end of the day it is easier for a farmer to allow shooters come on to his/her's property and kill the foxes that are stealing his lambs and the rabbits that are causing his horses to break legs.

Another point is one that i find interesting from herpers, as has been said hunters are getting judged for the minority that do the wrong thing like the people that keep reptiles illegally. 

next back to the main point of this thread trophies. i do not believe there is anything wrong with them. if someone shoots a nice stag or or a buff then whats the problem with keeping a head to commemorate the memory? moving on i also keep all my skins and meat unless not possible. 

onto african safari's. yes many of these animals are being breed to be hunted however the are they are being hunted has been returned to its natural environment, whilst all the native animals have been put back in to the area instead of cropland and these farmers are getting a living for it. yes they may be native but what is the problem aslong as the animals are not reducing in numbers due to the hunting? america allows it actually most countries allow it but australia. 

as for the sable in america i believe originally there were only 120 they where given to ranchers so that they could breed and then sell them for hunting to make it worth keeping the animals alive. this worked amazingly and many have been sent back to there native habitat. if you look carefully as well you will see that due to ms.Feral i believe her name was successfully introducing laws im not sure if they finally went ahead however in the uncertainty the ranchers where selling entire herds to hunters and shooting them themselves as if they cannot produce money then it become unviable for them to keep them on there property. 

as for drawing the line in 99.9% of the casses whats is the problem with hunting an animal ethically as long as its species is not under threat?

lastly to those that i have resorted to saying that people are dumber for hunting, if you really think that you will probably not bothered to see the reasoning in my post, however if you have i look forward to hearing an intelligent reply and not a mudslinging match.


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## jairusthevirus21 (Aug 5, 2012)

Liamb561 said:


> If there was no hunting we would all be living with dangerous animals all around us. im all for hunting, i plan on going one day. feral animals dont belong in australia, they are killing our native wildlife.



Dangerous animals?.... wat like snakes??? lol Gotta watch out for those man-eating bunnies too. Like in MoNTY Python's Holy Grail. ha ha 



mungus said:


> i trophy hunt & fish therefore i'm a blood thirsty killer....................
> Get real and get a life !
> Ahhhh feel better know !



badass!!!  lol


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## Sinners121 (Aug 5, 2012)

crocodile_dan
there are some truths and some not so truths. 
the ranchers are often not actually breeding themselves but letting the animals do the work as they usually have other things do attend to. 

Hunters do not actually hunt matriarchs they want trophies. This means old bulls with large amounts of ivory on them. usually when matriarchs are shot by cullers they shoot the entire herd. you are right about the studies however they are not relevant to most hunters and are such very misguiding. 
also elephants are now over populated and due to them being used as the token conservation animals it is impossible for farmers to try and keep their populations in check, which means there are not many old trees in overpopulated areas. 

as for lions places that allow hunting are conserving there populations for the future. and back to my original point if they are paying for trophy's they want the best and biggest for an animal to become the best and biggest it takes time and during that time it will sire many many cubs, which will eventually overthrow the alpha. 

the ilegal trade of wildlife products was happening without the legal avenue opening with it opening at least many game parks are being able to pay for the culling and the running of the parks.


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## Ricochet (Aug 5, 2012)

I hope all the knockers of hunting are vegitarians - if not they are just getting someone to do the dirty work for them. Believe it or not meat does not grow on safeways tray inside the cling wrap - it comes from animals. These animals are bred for meat, prodding it onto a cattle truck with an electric prod, transport it to the abatoirs where it gets offloaded into pens where it can smell the blood of other animals and listen to them being slaughtered and then gets a bolt into the side of the head which hopefully kills them. and ever been to where the chickens get prepped up.........

I'm a hunter and have been all my life. I hunt deer for meat, thrill of the hunt and if lucky enough - a trophy. All the deer I have taken have been dispatched very quickly. I also hunt other introduced species and some legal natives. Look at the problems the animal libbers have caused when they put pressure on the fur trade - all those poor little foxes getting shot to make fur coats - naughty hunters. Now they are the first to sook when the foxes are destroying our natives, so they scream for poisoning programs which results in a slow agonising death (and not just the target species) and the waste of a fine pelt as it rots into the ground. There was even talk of the victorian gov aerial bating for deer.

Most hunters are conservationists, doing more for protecting the species they hunt to ensure continued legitimate hunting resources.


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## jairusthevirus21 (Aug 6, 2012)

Ricochet's comment reminds me of that 60 minute story about the 'live cattle export' thing. Some of the images were rather Horrific. Although i did watch this while ripping into an 800grm steak that i soaked in butter, But that's another story. And one disturbing image was the cattle shaking with fear while another animal was being processed in front of it. Is this an act of cruelty? Iv grown to show respect for the animals i dispatch now. ON THE OTHER HAND when a Lioness takes down a buffalo or Gazelle, its not pretty either. She has to crush the windpipe to kill it and then tear it apart to feed her young. So really abatoirs are the most humane way to produce and process livestock. oh and RICOCHET! its not vegetarians you should have problems with its VEGAN'S! they are vile self righteous, soul sucking hippies. And i hate hippies!!!! lol 

And to the fellow shooters that are happy and proud to announce why they like hunting. Good on ya! Im not one to judge. i still hunt and spearfish myself. And i also like black PVC, GIMP MASKS, whips and chain and all sorts or freaky stuff in the bedroom so i guess its a case of each to their own.


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## ZsaZsaGaboa (Aug 6, 2012)

My first post was harshly worded, I apologise to the people I wrongly offended. 

I am talking only about the following groups of people;

* People that hunt for no reason other than 'the thrill' or for a trophy (then waste the rest of the animal).

* People that hunt/kill inhumanely, including hunting with poisons, traps etc. where the animal has to endure unnecessary pain or a lengthy death.


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## thomasssss (Aug 6, 2012)

ZsaZsaGaboa said:


> My first post was harshly worded, I apologise to the people I wrongly offended.
> 
> I am talking only about the following groups of people;
> 
> ...


thats still pretty much the same as before though , and who hunts with poisons other than national parks , i know your entitled to your opinion and the second point is pretty fair , but as for the first one , theres not much i see wrong with leaving the meat of a large wild animal thats probably riddled with parasites in the meat and only taking the head or trophy 

i dont take any of the rabbits that i shoot home , they get buried though


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## wylie88 (Aug 6, 2012)

I don't think there is anything wrong with trophy hunting....If it is a feral animal and dispatched quickly and cleanly. 
I used to hunt... a fair bit actually. I also own my own property and used to help my elderly nan run her thousands of acres. I can personally attest to the damage that feral's, particularly boars and cats do. 
My nan breeds pigs, free range (amoung other things) and feral pigs would cause massive problems often attacking the domestic pigs and sometimes even killing them. They would also breed with the domestic sows creating half breed, smaller and very aggressive offspring which more times then not if allowed to grow up and reproduce were very unpredictable and prone to attacking people. They would also eat and mutilate their own piglets often eating an entire litter of around 8-10 piglets in a matter of days despite having access to food 24/7. 
In the shire my property is located the council does very little to help property owners with feral animal control. I once rang them to see what options they had for feral cat control and I was told that the only thing they could do is rent me some traps and it was up to me to 'dispose' of the animals once caught.


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 6, 2012)

And humans cause no damage to the native environment do they? Only more than all the introduced species the world over but it's ok to sit in the house that untold wildlife died for and pass judgement on animals we, the humans, introduced in the first place.


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## wylie88 (Aug 6, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> And humans cause no damage to the native environment do they? Only more than all the introduced species the world over but it's ok to sit in the house that untold wildlife died for and pass judgement on animals we, the humans, introduced in the first place.


Ahh touche, you have a valid point there. ultimately we are the environments greatest source of destruction.


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## jonez (Aug 6, 2012)

ZsaZsaGaboa said:


> Just throwing in my 2 cents.
> 
> I believe that people have the same mental capacity as the animals they hunt. If we were half as evolved or intelligent as we would like to think, we'd have a better way of dealing with threats to our natural environment.
> Hunting for sport or pleasure, and not necessity, is both primitive and barbaric. I have absolutely no respect for "_people" (and I use that term loosely) _that hunt for those reasons.
> ...



Love this primative talk and on the same level as animals? Im sorry mate but i can only point out one major advancement that humans have over the animal A GUN so that would take the primative talk outta the equation. And barbaric? How one shot dead end of story we dont capture the animal and take it to a POW camp and inslave it.


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 6, 2012)

Sinners121, my issue is not with ranching or breeding for trophy hunting (even though I personally don't agree with the ethics of it), it is when people use the conservation bandwagon as a false facade.

My examples of the elephants and lions was more to illustrate the possible snowball effect that can occur even though common mindset simply views it as one individual out of a population. 

I do however disagree with some of your statements, Lions generally mature at around 3.5 to 4 years of age they do not usually have the strength to overtake a pride at this age though. Their longevity is 10-14 years and the older they are the more conspecific fights they engage in resulting in scars or more serious visible injuries. Trophy hunters do want the BIG guys but they also want the animals in pristine condition. So it is extremely realistic to expect the most sought after lions are in the 6-9 year old age bracket as they are at their fittest, big and strong with less fights over protecting a pride so they are the pinnacle of what a male lion should look like in it's prime. At 8 years of age the most likely best possible scenario is that male was able to take over a pride at 5 years of age, he has therefore sired 3 maybe 4 generations of cubs at best. Once he is removed and a new male takes over the cubs and adolescents are killed or forced out, so the most recent generations are removed. So it is very possible those males only pass their genetics on to 1-2 generations.

Also the illegal wildlife trade is only behind guns and drugs so of course it is happening even without the legal avenues, but opening legal avenues makes it easier for the illegal markets to move their products. Look at the elephant ivory trade example I mentioned earlier.

I am not saying trophy hunting should be stopped! It has many benefits which are mentioned above by many people, but it does also have negatives.


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## [email protected] (Aug 6, 2012)

crocodile_dan said:


> Sinners121, my issue is not with ranching or breeding for trophy hunting (even though I personally don't agree with the ethics of it), it is when people use the conservation bandwagon as a false facade.
> 
> My examples of the elephants and lions was more to illustrate the possible snowball effect that can occur even though common mindset simply views it as one individual out of a population.
> 
> ...



well said

it will be sad when we wipe everything out to extinction for all our made up excuses.


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## shaneb (Aug 6, 2012)

says it all...


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## Snowman (Aug 6, 2012)

Is it any different to fishing and keeping your catch? Holding up a big snapper or even standing next to a sail fish.
I've done my fair share of shooting pigs, rabbits, goats etc.. it wasnt about the kill. More the hunt which to me was like fishing. JMO
I aslo find hunting with a camera gives me the same thrill. Underwater photography is as much fun as spearfishing and photo's of animals on land is as much fun as shooting, perhaps because I enjoy the hunt of finding something... Getting a good photograph is a trophy in the same way.

I should add. Old photo's are not good eating....


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## Radar (Aug 6, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> And humans cause no damage to the native environment do they? Only more than all the introduced species the world over but it's ok to sit in the house that untold wildlife died for and pass judgement on animals we, the humans, introduced in the first place.



There are plenty of people around I'd like to shoot, trust me, it's just that acquiring the permits is harder and harder every generation.


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## thomasssss (Aug 6, 2012)

rednut said:


> There are plenty of people around I'd like to shoot, trust me, it's just that acquiring the permits is harder and harder every generation.


its not that hard if you dont have a record , just takes time


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## Chanzey (Aug 6, 2012)

Well atleast people who do hunt are doing more for the cause then you guys having a winge. Do gooders


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## jairusthevirus21 (Aug 6, 2012)

Chanzey said:


> Well atleast people who do hunt are doing more for the cause then you guys having a winge. Do gooders



Hang on.... arn't people who do good, a good thing??? : /


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## Chanzey (Aug 6, 2012)

Only what they think is good for them


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## Darlyn (Aug 6, 2012)

If it wasn't for cruel humans, all animals would die in their sleep at a ripe old age..........


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## Ricochet (Aug 6, 2012)

> If it wasn't for cruel humans, all animals would die in their sleep at a ripe old age..........​



Hope you were saying that tongue in cheek otherwise tell that to the rabbit being eaten by the fox, the parrot being eaten by the cat, the sheep being eaten by the wild dog or the baby being eaten by the dingo


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## Chanzey (Aug 6, 2012)

Always wanted to see a lion eat a tree


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## Darlyn (Aug 6, 2012)

Ricochet said:


> Hope you were saying that tongue in cheek otherwise tell that to the rabbit being eaten by the fox, the parrot being eaten by the cat, the sheep being eaten by the wild dog or the baby being eaten by the dingo



Haven't you ever visited an "Old Wild Animals Home?"

Most animals in Australia have a predator from insects up to Elapids and marsupials.
People who get upset at the death of an animal need some perspective. I dislike unwarranted cruelty but
death is what rolls round for all of us. Animals and humans alike.


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## Sinners121 (Aug 6, 2012)

crocodile_dan said:


> Sinners121, my issue is not with ranching or breeding for trophy hunting (even though I personally don't agree with the ethics of it), it is when people use the conservation bandwagon as a false facade.
> 
> My examples of the elephants and lions was more to illustrate the possible snowball effect that can occur even though common mindset simply views it as one individual out of a population.
> 
> ...



again dan i agree with some points and not others  

i agree that there are ranchers that jump behind the conservation band waggon, however many times even if they themselves are not actually doing anything they have to pay someone to get behind that band wagon. 

i can understand why you used them as an example and maybe lions be ok but i definitely disagree with elephants.

as to the hunters wanting them in pristine condition there is a truth to that however i think you will find an equal amount do not as a pristine condition lion does not look truly wild. going by your statistics within the domination of a single lion it will produce breeding size lions and just under, provided they are females they would be kept however if they were not they would be kicked out by the alpha anyway. what is also not being considered is that many of these game farms are buying there animals by the animals or pride's which means there genetics are still being passed on. And the difference for example between a property that buys and a property that leaves its lions is something like 6000 and 40 000. 

aslong as these animals are worth money and people are paying for them they are not going to disappear. 

as for the trade in illegal wildlife that will never be stopped and at least with legal avenues the parks are being able to pay for themselves And as has been seen due to PETA entire australian business's have been destroyed because of trying to stop illegal trades instead of encouraging legal. 

i agree there are negatives, as there is a negative to everything however i believe they are already trying to tackle these to better legitimise themselves. 
An example that can be used is Rhino they are being bred for a bigger horn and as i think everyone will agree the large horned rhinos were shot out by uncontrolled hunting so is that not in someways correcting a wrong? it is also worth noting that the people selling these animals do not care wether they are for hunting or conservation so many parks have been buying from breeders.


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## Henno (Aug 6, 2012)

I enjoy shooting as a hobby, for many reasons. One example is, honing my abilities to make good, clean shots. 
Now, as a shooter, I also hunt feral pigs. I enjoy camping out, tracking the animals and overall just being able to enjoy the peace, quiet and beauty of the great outdoors. 
Touching on the subject of taking pleasure from a kill, I can't say personally that I've ever had a rush of endorphins from putting an animal down (I make sure of a quick, clean kill, like several other hunters in this thread have mentioned they do), but I also can't say that I feel bad about it. 
It disturbs me when I hear stories of people that have been unnecessarily cruel when killing any animal, feral or otherwise.
However, as has been mentioned earlier, when it comes to ferals often the most humane way of going about eradicating the problem is through hunting, (can't speak for other species, but I know that taking even a few boars out of the local population of feral pigs can thin the numbers considerably).
Whether people like it or not, we live in a country that does have a problem with several feral species and whether people like it or not there will always be someone hunting these animals, be it controlled or for sport.


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 7, 2012)

We may have to agree to disagree on some points Sinners121  I can see this turning into a classic APS back and forth and to be honest they ****** me to tears 

I will answer the question you asked about the rhinos: Short answer yes it is correcting a wrong, as hunting for larger horns was a selective pressure and as such breeding to try and return the rhino's horn back to it's pre-hunting physiology is in a way trying to correct that. Long answer I never feel it is as simple as that from artificial selective pressure to genetic depression in captive breeding, by trying to create one thing they could very well be inhibiting other selective pressures and creating a subsequent issue.

Cheers
Daniel


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## Sinners121 (Aug 7, 2012)

haha i think we may have to agree to disagree. you raised some valid points though and i will be doing more research now


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## kybaryal (Aug 10, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> one thing that really gets to me is that people that call themselves game hunters and then show of there kill as a trophie,. to me that's really weird . how can you get a kick out of killing something so innocent just for a trophie, what is wrong with this world. like these people that pose with there kill and gun . Im glad i never turned out that way, even living up on a farm with a gun and plenty to shoot i never shot a thing, only thing i ever shot was a sheep that had been injured and was in serious pain that it could not survive. my dad never shot anything only his dog after it killed the neighbours sheep and even then that was a very hard thing for my farther to do. i guess some people just don't no any better or that they cant see the big picture. what brought this to mine was that i was driving yesterday and a guy had a fresh kill ,head of wild pig attached to his truck driving along nsw newcastle rd like to me thats offensive and kids don't need to see that.




Im guessing you dont like fishing then... Killing poor defenceless animals !!


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## Hamalicious (Aug 10, 2012)

Killing for food or culling pests i dont have a problem with. But i do agree that going out with a rifle and killing the biggest and healthiest animal as a trophy is wrong. It doesnt make you a man because you killed an animal from 100m away that didnt even have a chance to defend itself. i say if you want a trophy, go one on one with the animal, then well see how tough you really are.


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## thomasssss (Aug 10, 2012)

Mrherp said:


> Killing for food or culling pests i dont have a problem with. But i do agree that going out with a rifle and killing the biggest and healthiest animal as a trophy is wrong. It doesnt make you a man because you killed an animal from 100m away that didnt even have a chance to defend itself. i say if you want a trophy, go one on one with the animal, then well see how tough you really are.


some people do , ive heard of pig hunters that send their dogs in to flush out pigs then run in with a knife and finish the job


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## [email protected] (Aug 11, 2012)

This is what im on about. I have no problem people hunting for pest or food
A European zoo sold three of these lions to a game hunting industry in Africa.

i would much rather spend money to care for that animal then destroy it.

im not going on about guns , hey a gun is a tool (pest control) not just a weapon, 

i just cant believe how some people could be proud of this , i suppose some people have different taste, 
each to there own where all human.


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 11, 2012)

I have heard about some reproductive practices of big cats in European Zoos which are more shocking than the above.

Surplus animals in zoos is a big issue, but I personally find it very hard to comprehend when there are big cats involved.


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## Hamalicious (Aug 11, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> some people do , ive heard of pig hunters that send their dogs in to flush out pigs then run in with a knife and finish the job



Good on them. I dont have a problem with that.


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## thomasssss (Aug 11, 2012)

Mrherp said:


> Good on them. I dont have a problem with that.


really , and yet it is probably the most inhuman way to go about it 

the pig gets stressed and bit on the legs by dogs forcing it out of the scrub , then they follow through with a big knife that doesn't kill the animal instantly like a good shot from a 30.30 can and the animal dies a painful death with more suffering than what is necessary if you used a firearm and yet you have no problem with it because they got up close and personal with the animal


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## stimigex (Aug 11, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> really , and yet it is probably the most inhuman way to go about it
> 
> the pig gets stressed and bit on the legs by dogs forcing it out of the scrub , then they follow through with a big knife that doesn't kill the animal instantly like a good shot from a 30.30 can and the animal dies a painful death with more suffering than what is necessary if you used a firearm and yet you have no problem with it because they got up close and personal with the animal



Sorry but just by reading that statement you have no idea on dogging pigs!

In my younger years we used to run a substantial dog team, we would only ever run 2-3 on each hunt (any more and you cant control them, the rest would stay on the ute) The dogs are trained to find and hold a pig by the ear as this is the safest for the dogs, We are with the dogs at all times! once the hold the pig it is dispatched with a knife to the heart, it clean and quick!
My boys continue to hunt this way today!

I am not saying there are no cowboys out there that cause problems but the majority do not!


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## thomasssss (Aug 11, 2012)

stimigex , you are right i only know a little bit about what goes on with that type of pigging , only know what ive been told

i didnt know what thats the dogs where trained to hold the pig behind the ear (which is probably more stressful to the pig in its final moments), as for the clean stab in the heart im sure that is intended to happen most times but dont tell me it doesnt go wrong every now and then (just like shooting ) and the pig is still kicking after the initial stab which would then need a follow up stab


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## Sinners121 (Aug 11, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> stimigex , you are right i only know a little bit about what goes on with that type of pigging , only know what ive been told
> 
> i didnt know what thats the dogs where trained to hold the pig behind the ear (which is probably more stressful to the pig in its final moments), as for the clean stab in the heart im sure that is intended to happen most times but dont tell me it doesnt go wrong every now and then (just like shooting ) and the pig is still kicking after the initial stab which would then need a follow up stab



your right you dont know what you are talking about, sorry if i sound rude. from start to stop at a maximum i would say the pig is caught and killed within seconds once the dog goes the owners are right behind!!. dogging is probably the most efficient method for clearing a farm/ area. if you have ever picked up a pig you will know they squeal at anything. 
you right they dont always hit the heart, but 99% of the time they do and if not it takes a second to put a second stab in. 
and as you admit you only know what you have been told!!! 

as with everything there are a few idiots!!!!! however the majority are ethical hunters.
this is the problem people are judging something they know nothing about and are using information they get from people that dont know or are anti's. its the equivalent to me saying we shouldn't allow anyone to drive because a few people speed and are hoons.



[email protected] said:


> View attachment 262046
> 
> 
> 
> ...


elapid 
the people that allow this on there property often have to choices either they can have game hunting or farm. with droughts and pestilence game hunting is a more viable option. at least these animals are not going to go extinct anymore.


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## thomasssss (Aug 11, 2012)

sinners121 , i hope you havent got your wires all crossed , im all for hunting far from anti hunting


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## Sinners121 (Aug 11, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> View attachment 262046
> 
> 
> 
> ...


elapid 
the people that allow this on there property often have to choices either they can have game hunting or farm. with droughts and pestilence game hunting is a more viable option. at least these animals are not going to go extinct anymore. (anyway this has already been discussed)



thomasssss said:


> sinners121 , i hope you havent got your wires all crossed , im all for hunting far from anti hunting



i havnt but even within the hunting community we cannot support our own when doing the right thing and it really rubs me the wrong way to be honest its why we will eventually losse everything.


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## mungus (Aug 17, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> some people do , ive heard of pig hunters that send their dogs in to flush out pigs then run in with a knife and finish the job



I'd like to see a pig hunter with only a knife trying to kill 100kg+ bassalt boar coming at straight at him..........!!



Mrherp said:


> Killing for food or culling pests i dont have a problem with. But i do agree that going out with a rifle and killing the biggest and healthiest animal as a trophy is wrong. It doesnt make you a man because you killed an animal from 100m away that didnt even have a chance to defend itself. i say if you want a trophy, go one on one with the animal, then well see how tough you really are.



Nothing against riffle shooters, each to their own.
My personal preference for hunting is the tradional longbow [ 80lb - no sites or aiming apparatus ]
At 100m im still casually walking to my feral target :lol:
Normally never shoot further than 30 yards [ couldnt ensure a clean kill ]
If i had a riffle i would have shot my wish list 30 years ago.
With my bow i will never get there :lol:
I personally like the biggest challange and with tradional bowhunting on foot...........well the animal still
has the upper hand.
My 2 bob's worth,
Aleks.


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## deanzy (Aug 17, 2012)

it is not so much they "hey look at me and this living thing i just killed" it is more like "check out the size of this bad boy".


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2012)

deanzy said:


> it is not so much they "hey look at me and this living thing i just killed" it is more like "check out the size of this bad boy".


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## mungus (Aug 17, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> View attachment 262659



In Australia those 2 would be considered the same as our fox problem that we have.


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## thomasssss (Aug 17, 2012)

mungus said:


> I'd like to see a pig hunter with only a knife trying to kill 100kg+ bassalt boar coming at straight at him..........!!


id like to see that to , personally i prefer the use of a fire arm over that method but each to their own , people can try to tell me its effective they get stabbed straight in the heart ra ra ra ra but at the end of the day their are better methods to do it imo , also i originally only made that statement youve quoted to tell mr herp that there are people who do that , not that their going to go and take on the biggest boar they can find


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## Frozenmouse (Aug 18, 2012)

You should only ever be allowed to kill animals as a sport if you use your bare hands and teeth if necessary, any use of dogs, knives, guns , bows is cheating.


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## reptilerescue (Aug 18, 2012)

I dont have a problem with shooting for food or pest destruction but if you want to shoot for fun there are paper or clay targets the game ranch hunting in africa this also applies in australia there are people out there that think they are great white hunters shooting animals out of a ute in a 30 acre paddock


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## Snotty (Aug 18, 2012)

I have no problem at all with hunting - provided it is done properly. The thing is that too many times I have seen it turn into "lets get pxxxxd and shoot stuff". Some of my old mates I would be cautious of letting them use my TV let alone giving them a gun and half a carton each. In the old days when the duck season used to open I think the hunters managed to shoot more of the other hunters than ducks. So especially somewhere like Australia it has suffered over the years from complete idiots.

Still one problem I am seeing now is that some of the "do gooder" mentality is actually making things worse. Obviously some of the feral animals are a huge problem - along with some natives. For example the Lions above are almost impossible for zoos to get rid of. In many countries people have them as pets, and in zoos themselves they breed like rabbits - well more like lions and tigers, so feeding them is not cheap. Think a cow every week or two sort of costs. In reality if they were not sold they would probably have been put down. 

Ultimately though it is hard to argue that hunting is some sort of 'evil' when I have seen far more animals killed on roads than I ever have through hunting. I can't say I have any desire to sit on the verandah polishing my gun and then go out and shoot Bambi's mum, but I also know I like to go fishing occasionally and enjoy a nice burger so it does limit how much I can criticise someone else for enjoying something different to me.


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 18, 2012)

mungus said:


> In Australia those 2 would be considered the same as our fox problem that we have.



Vervet monkeys are considered by some people as pests because they are known to take food and/or crops from communities (and other nuisances) but comparing a native species which has adapted to human civilization as a resource to an introduced species that has a detrimental effect on native fauna is a bit of an overrepresentation in my opinion.



Snotty said:


> For example the Lions above are almost impossible for zoos to get rid of. In many countries people have them as pets, and in zoos themselves they breed like rabbits - well more like lions and tigers, so feeding them is not cheap. Think a cow every week or two sort of costs. In reality if they were not sold they would probably have been put down.



As stated before surplus zoo stock is an issue but most zoos especially accredited facilities strictly regulate breeding, so it is not completely accurate that they breed like rabbits in zoos. A cow a week-fortnight is a VERY overfed animal! Captive individuals don't consume anywhere near this amount for routine diets.


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## dragonlover1 (Aug 18, 2012)

jairusthevirus21 said:


> Look i used to go shooting on occasion myself for foxes, rabbits and so on. Now that im involved more with Fauna rescue work. Its not so much. (for some reason) I see exactly what ELAPID is saying tho. Its not the act of shooting itself. Its perhaps the thought processes that are behind it. I guess what im trying to say is that If you go out for the 'thrill' (and pig hunting is pretty intense) or Enjoyment of the kill. What questions does that raise? Do you enjoy killing? What happened to you as a child to take pleasure in killing? I understand that this affection is for only a few shooters out there.... but there is enough of them.
> ON THE OTHER HAND! The human instinct to kill is perfectly natural.... its not disgusting, its not even weird. Its actually quite normal from an instinctual point of view. Those little endorphins that get released after a kill or intense hunt is probably part of our survival strategy. Every shooter will justify their hobby to themselves and that is what matters. regardless whether its for feral control, humane ultimatums or pleasure.
> but the question must be asked.... Do you enjoy killing??



the short answer is NO.............but ferals must be killed to ensure the longevity of our natives


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## tahnia666 (Feb 28, 2014)

I haven't had a current gun licence for years, but Ive hunted in the past for deer (yum) I'm not into trophy kills,.its incredibly wasteful to kill an animal for its head alone. But if you take no more than you can eat I see no.issue
Sorry for bumping this thread my tapatalk brings up threads in no particular order

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


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## -Peter (Feb 28, 2014)

Some hunt because it is exciting while others do it for the bragging rights and get there jollys that way, canned shooters obviously fit in the latter category. People who drive around with dead animal parts displayed on their vehicles obviously have some sort of psycholigical problem and perhaps are the people who shouldn't have guns. Just my opinion and you dont have to agree with it.


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## Karnyge (Feb 28, 2014)

Not all hunters are killing for fun and a photo, I've been brought up shooting both target and animals, besides the pests, we eat what we shoot including the trophie game, at least I know how the meat got to my plate and how it was humanly killed without any suffering. Each to their own. 

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## -Peter (Feb 28, 2014)

You wouldn't do it if you didn't enjoy it so you do it for fun. Dont be intimidated by what others impose as a definition of what fun is.



Karnyge said:


> Not all hunters are killing for fun and a photo, I've been brought up shooting both target and animals, besides the pests, we eat what we shoot including the trophie game, at least I know how the meat got to my plate and how it was humanly killed without any suffering. Each to their own.
> 
> Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## Karnyge (Feb 28, 2014)

People do things everyday that they don't enjoy.. On a farm it's something that has to be done, are you saying those in a slaughter house enjoy killing cows? 

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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