# Snakes: To Handle Or Not To Handle?



## DDALDD (Oct 2, 2008)

G’day all,
As a new snake owner (which is currently refusing to feed!) I spent a lot of time on the net, reading books, talking to keepers and on this forum going through old threads researching the ins and outs of keeping reptiles in captivity. It seems that this hobby, like many others, is one of many divided opinions. On this day it’s the subject of handling that I hope others will help me out on.

I won’t lie, I was surprised to read that many veteran herpers do not handle their reptiles unless needed due to the belief (fact?) that reptiles stress easily and simply do not ever enjoy being handled. Others, in many cases also veterans of the hobby, argue quite strongly that snakes, once used to it, have no issue with being handled on a regular basis. Others still argue that their snakes LOVE being handled. Let’s ignore the latter category and focus on the two first shall we?

Some on this site argue that any handling of snakes when unnecessary is a form of animal abuse. It’s an extreme view based on what I’ve read but not an entirely uncommon one. The thing that surprises me is how vehemently people who oppose snake handling attack other experienced keepers who do. As a newbie to the reptile scene I’m a little confused at the vitriol of these opinions. Not because I think it’s the wrong position to have, but because how else are we going to share with the world that snakes are not killers in the night than to educate them by example. The best way is of course to show people. It’s a little difficult when you have a “don’t ever touch” policy.

In Feb when I last visited the Australian Reptile Park the showman there took the time to educate us about the dangers of touching snakes in the wild but also definitely took the time to promote reptile keeping as a hobby and specifically saying that snakes can be quite amenable to handling. He said this after having stuffed a BHP down his shirt saying it was “happy” there due to the heat. Yet, I’ve read on this site that anyone who thinks that snakes enjoy being held because of their proximity to a heat source (the body) is an idiot. The same show also involved kissing a saltie and draping a large python over a young girl’s neck and insisting it loved kids. All obvious showmanship aside, were his opinions not one of a professional herpetologist? I certainly took it to be and loved the show. Many reptile keepers at the parks/zoos I’ve visited since said that they handle their snakes regularly. I only tell this story to point out that people who research reptile keeping will not necessarily arrive at the same conclusion as others.

The reason for my long winded intro is this: is it true that if you have any expert knowledge of snakes you would never handle them just for the sake of it? Are people wrong if they want to handle their snakes occasionally? How can we expect people to become interested in the hobby if we keep the animals out of arms reach?


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## Dave (Oct 2, 2008)

I don't think it is wrong or anything, I know people who let there snakes lizards monitors etc lay around the house with them. When I first got mine I handled mine a fair bit say once a day or so. But now I'd prefer to watch it do its own thing and only get it out say three times a week for 10minutes. I'm sure some people will say its bad etc but If the snake isn't trying to digest and it is ok with it then I say why not?


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## garthy (Oct 2, 2008)

I am so far from an expert its not funny, however I do have 17 yrs experience of keeping, catching and relocating snakes. I don't handle my snakes much but I probably do more than some. I handle my juvenile Bredli most days to expose them to sunlight (transferring them to an outdoor enclosure) however this is virtually the only reason (other than cage cleaning times). I do believe though that it is important to do a visual (thorough) for condition/health reasons. 
This could turn out to be a very interesting forum.


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 2, 2008)

I think the division of perspective is marked between those that keep reptiles as hobbyist, and those that keep reptiles as pets. The debate extends beyond the issue of 'to handle or not to handle', but to storage tub Vs naturalistic enclosures etc. and the difference in attitude is considerable. 

Lizzie


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## cris (Oct 2, 2008)

There are heaps of variables, but i think many that keep snakes have no idea what sort of things will stress them out. I believe some snakes can definately handle handling with little to no stress, but often that isnt the case.


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## DDALDD (Oct 2, 2008)

Dave94 said:


> I'm sure some people will say its bad etc but If the snake isn't trying to digest and it is ok with it then I say why not?



Fair enough, the point being exactly that though, is that bad? As in, can someone with scientific knowledge of snakes tell you differently?



garthy said:


> I do have 17 yrs experience of keeping, catching and relocating snakes.



17 years qualifies you as at least experienced! I guess I'd say, when you started out did you handle your captive snakes more than you do now? If you did, is it just a case of once people settling down and the novelty wearing off? In that case there's not much to worry about. 



tattoolizzie said:


> I think the division of perspective is marked between those that keep reptiles as hobbyist, and those that keep reptiles as pets. The debate extends beyond the issue of 'to handle or not to handle', but to storage tub Vs naturalistic enclosures etc. and the difference in attitude is considerable.
> Lizzie



It does extend beyond just this specifically, I'm after what arguments are put forward on both sides to do with this issue. Is it actually wrong or not wrong or simply a matter or opinion?



cris said:


> I believe some snakes can definately handle handling with little to no stress, but often that isnt the case.



I'd agree with you...but I'm only going on my gut feeling here, I can't back it up.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Oct 2, 2008)

handle them ,they will be fine

the end


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## DDALDD (Oct 2, 2008)

OK, so we know where you stand. 

Anyone who doesn't agree with handling? Would really like to hear another side.


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## the.badger (Oct 2, 2008)

V. interesting peeps, I would like to hear more on this as I'm a newbie myself and want to know how to treat my snakes.


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## Mr.Pagz (Oct 2, 2008)

I've only had my python for a few months, but I've started to see the signs of when he is stressed when handling and when he isn't. He doesn't _seem_ to mind being handled, as if he was he'd defiantly show it.

I think it also depends on the snake. Just like people there are situations some like and other situations that others wouldn't want to do at all.

To have a blanked statement of "all snakes should never be handled" is kind of inconsistent with the many owners over the years who handle their snakes on a regular basis with no ill effects.


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## blackthorn (Oct 2, 2008)

I would just like to applaud you for writing a thread with some substannce, which is both coherent and well written. There's a distinct lack of that on this site.


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## pete12 (Oct 2, 2008)

I dont see what's wrong with handling them i mean if they really didnt want to be handled they would show it in some way. you have to remember that captive snakes are totally different from wild captive have been in human contact there whole lives and wild ones haven't i think if your snake comes from a good bloodline it would have no probs handling where as if you get a snake from a crappy bloodline that is relativity new to captivity they wouldn't have built up that trust with humans. anyways thats my opinion probly docent make much sense but anyways


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## MrSpike (Oct 2, 2008)

Mysnakes have no issue's with being handled, but I don't go taking them out. I prefer to leave my snakes alone.



pete12 said:


> I dont see what's wrong with handling them i mean if they really didnt want to be handled they would show it in some way.



They bite.


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## DDALDD (Oct 2, 2008)

Mr.Pagz said:


> To have a blanked statement of "all snakes should never be handled" is kind of inconsistent with the many owners over the years who handle their snakes on a regular basis with no ill effects.



Sounds good.



blackthorn said:


> I would just like to applaud you for writing a thread with some substannce, which is both coherent and well written. There's a distinct lack of that on this site.



Thanks. Let's see if it actually starts a good discussion.



MrSpike said:


> I prefer to leave my snakes alone.



So be it, that's your preference. But are you against people taking their snakes out "to get them used to being handled"?


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## notechistiger (Oct 2, 2008)

pete12 said:


> if your snake comes from a good bloodline it would have no probs handling where as if you get a snake from a crappy bloodline that is relativity new to captivity they wouldn't have built up that trust with humans


 
There is absolutely no substantial evidence to support this fact. Some second generation snakes will tolerate handling just fine, and some will be snappy and resistant to it. Some fifth or sixth generation snakes will tolerate handling just as well as those first generation snakes, and some won't.

It think it depends completely upon the snake. For example, my spotted python was handled from day one, through feeds and digesting periods and everything, and now, she's so used to it, she automatically wraps around my hand when I go to pick her up out of her enclosure. Other the other hand, a friend's bredli is flighty and twitchy, and is so far a good handler, but she doesn't sit _still_.

I, for one, am all for handling as much as you want.


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## MrSpike (Oct 2, 2008)

DDALDD said:


> So be it, that's your preference. But are you against people taking their snakes out "to get them used to being handled"?



I'm not against the occasional handling of a snake for a check over, while cleaning its tub, or just to show it off to a mate(for very very short periods of time... as in minutes) etc etc... But I am against people taking there snakes out on a daily basis for extended periods of time just to mess about. No matter how much you kick and scream and yell that snakes like being handled the fact of the matter is they don't, they tolerate it. They aren't dogs, they aren't cat's and they aren't birds. They don't need affection so I don't see why people have the urge to give it to them? 

Snakes are very simple animals. You piss one off and it'll bite, treat one well your chances of being bitten are less but there is still a chance. 

I think people should think of Reptiles as they do fish, rather then companion animals. Something to be admired but not touched. But hey, there are still idiots out there that find the urge to handle fish aswell.


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm interested to see the argument as to why snakes shouldn't be handled. I respect the right to the opinion - however, If it is presented as 'snakes don't like it or enjoy it they just tollerate it, so it shouldn't be done', it could quite easily be countered with the view that snakes probably don't_ like_ to be kept in captivity at all so why do it ? The reason of course is that we as owners/keepers get something out of it, which really is main the reason that people do handle their snakes (husbandry needs aside). 

I think there is no doubt though that if a person is to handle their snakes it needs to always be done with respect for the animals wellbeing,and if the snake is showing signs of distress the poor thing needs to be left alone!


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## Troyster (Oct 2, 2008)

i find this thread one of the most interesting ive read on here in a while,that said i think it is similar to people that have dogs for example,i have 2 dog and they can almost do as they please they are allowed in they are allowed on the leather lounges they come and go as they please however this is just my opinion,i know alot of people who dont have their dogs inside let alone on the furniture.So how this relates to this thread you ask?Well its my furniture my dogs and my decission,as it is my snake and my decission whether i want to handle it or not.I believe i do know when enough is enough regarding handling of my snake but if his tounge is still flicking and he still seems curious as to his surroundings i say handle away


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## DDALDD (Oct 2, 2008)

MrSpike said:


> I'm not against the occasional handling of a snake for a check over, while cleaning its tub, or just to show it off to a mate(for very very short periods of time... as in minutes) etc etc... But I am against people taking there snakes out on a daily basis for extended periods of time just to mess about.



Based on what I've read up on, I'd certainly agree that they only tolerate it versus enjoying it. So when many articles and other reputable herpetologists point out that a species of python is a general rule amenable to handling, are they saying that they will tolerate handling. I'd also agree that if you're taking your snake out for hours each day you're most likely stressing it. But for 10-20mins every few days? Where's the line?

To add a little more to the discussion, snakes are obviously not mammals and cannot be read as if they are. Biting is surely not the only sign that a snake is stressed. I've read that rapid tongue flicking, constricting and rapid movement in general are signs that a snake is stressing. Is biting really the only real sign a snake is stressed?


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## MMAnne (Oct 2, 2008)

I handle my python a few times a week. Sometimes only for short periods of times, longer if he falls asleep draped over my lap or neck. I think its good for him to be out and about every now and then. Even if he is only tolerating it, and not necessarily enjoying it, i still think its good for a change not to be cooped up in his box. Just as long as I am not doing more harm than good.

I also like to think my snake 'knows' me by sense of smell and identifies me as a non-threat, a friend - and while not exactly related to this thread, i see occasional handling as a kind of 'bonding' time, hehe. At least on my side anyway :lol:


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## DDALDD (Oct 2, 2008)

Troyster, I certainly can't tell you what to do with your snake if you so choose. I'd say that most people with common sense know when is overkill. What worries me is what I kind of mentioned in my last post. Maybe common sense is not enough, snakes are more complex to read than say dogs which can bark, whine, grovel, shiver, yelp, wag tails etc. In which case I'd like to know more about correctly reading my reptile.


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## notechistiger (Oct 3, 2008)

MMAnne said:


> I also like to think my snake 'knows' me by sense of smell and identifies me as a non-threat


 
Snakes do come to recognise you and associate you with certain things. For example, I put my spotted on the lid of her click clack when feeding her. I'm the one that does it 99.9% of the time, and because of that, she knows food is coming, and so will sit patiently on the lid for the food to come. When I had a friend do it (put her on the same lid), the snake zipped right away, then when I put her back there a minute later, she stayed still. See what I mean?



DDALDD said:


> Maybe common sense is not enough, snakes are more complex to read than say dogs which can bark, whine, grovel, shiver, yelp, wag tails etc. In which case I'd like to know more about correctly reading my reptile.


 
There's no manual for how to read your reptile. It comes with experience and getting to _know_ said reptile.


I think if people want to handle their reptiles, then let them. If people don't, then that's fine, just don't try to impress your opinions on others. There is no "right" way for such things. It comes down the the reptile, the owner and commonsense.


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## DDALDD (Oct 3, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> just don't try to impress your opinions on others. There is no "right" way for such things. It comes down the the reptile, the owner and commonsense.



That's a sensible approach. With so many keepers saying that handling is fine, I'm inclined to believe that it is not necessarily detrimental to the animal. I guess I'm new and just wanting to get it right.


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## notechistiger (Oct 3, 2008)

DDALDD said:


> I guess I'm new and just wanting to get it right.


 
Which is absolutely fine. But as I said, there is no right way. You could spend ten years doing it one way, then start doing it another way because it's easier, or it's cheaper, or there's more evidence supporting it, or a multitude of different reasons. In my opinion, we don't know nearly as much about snakes as we like to think. The husbandry of them will keep evolving for a many, many years. I should think that keeper's views will evolve in the same manner.


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## MrSpike (Oct 3, 2008)

DDALDD said:


> I've read that rapid tongue flicking, constricting and rapid movement in general are signs that a snake is stressing. Is biting really the only real sign a snake is stressed?



Biting, flighty behavior, crapping on you, constricting are all things that reptiles in general do when they don't want to be handled.



notechistiger said:


> Which is absolutely fine. But as I said, there is no right way.



Sure, there aren't any set right ways for things to be done but there definitely are wrong ways of handling snakes.



notechistiger said:


> Snakes do come to recognise you and associate you with certain things. For example, I put my spotted on the lid of her click clack when feeding her. I'm the one that does it 99.9% of the time, and because of that, she knows food is coming, and so will sit patiently on the lid for the food to come. When I had a friend do it (put her on the same lid), the snake zipped right away, then when I put her back there a minute later, she stayed still. See what I mean?



I don't think this is as much a snake knowing you as it is routine. 

As it has been said many times before, you can't make people do what you think is right for the snake. The best you can do is educate and inform them of what is considered better for the snake.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 3, 2008)

This applies to hatchling/juvie snakes and holds true for the vast majority of them.

To a small snake EVERYTHING is a threat.At such a small size they are close to the bottom of the food chain and they know it.

It is reacts the way it does because it is scared and forcing yourself on it will only add to its stress.A lot of the husbandy problems people encounter with their reptiles are a direct result of stress that can be attributed to either handling, bad husbandry practises or both.

Given the choice it would most likely want to get away from you but in the confines of a tub/cage or whatever that option isn't available to it so it has no choice but to bite.

Once they start to get a bit of size about them they don't automatically percieve everything as a threat and as a consequence tend to calm down.This happens without any interference from the keepers part.

Most adult pythons don't tend to react so badly to handling.Some don't seem to mind at all,others seem to tolerate it more or less.None however would crave or feel a need to be handled.They are not social animals in any way shape or form,they have very basic instincts and similarly very basic needs.


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## cooper123 (Oct 3, 2008)

i think handling a snake is fine, zoo keepers do it for displays and stuff and they are experts and if it was bad for the snake they wouldent do it.


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## pythons73 (Oct 3, 2008)

Unless their is any scientific effidence no one will really find out if its wrong or right,imo,i wouldnt think the bigger breeders and some smaller breeders wouldnt handle theirs a great deal,for alot of ppl with just 1 or a few reptiles they would be handled alot more.I dont like to handle hatchies unless cleaning,juvies a bit more,older,3-4years plus,i like to handle atleast once a week.This topic can go for days,I really think it depends on the reptile in question,some like be handled,some dont....


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## snakehandler (Oct 3, 2008)

Our snakes are handled regularly, however we can see that it does stress some of them. We have a strict policy within Snakehandler to ensure we rotate the animals out from shows once they have been used for a day. typically our animals are only out for about 2-3 minutes each about 4-5 times a day, but hundreds of people touching them can stress them.

You need to understand your individual snake and its personality. One species we have found that does not tolerate handling often in diamond pythons, they seem more susceptible to stress than others.

One thing that is for certain is that while some of the animals do actually enjoy being handled many learn to tolerate it. We keep a record of what each animal does and ensure that they get at least 7 days off after being used in displays, parties or courses. We have not had any deaths due to handling or stress, we very rarely need to see a vet (usually to check new animals), and we breed several of our snakes every year....if they were over stressed due to any problem they wouldn't breed, I would have sick animals and we would have deaths.


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## cjpossum (Oct 3, 2008)

MrSpike has it I think just rember that these are still wild animals. If you are slow and deliberate in your movements when you handle then your snake should be less stressed. Also there are different species to consider. Ground dwelers or tree climbers, stress levels for these guys are very different for example, a tree climber grasps its tail around your arm to feel secure where a ground dweller such as BHP prefer to be on the ground because they cant hang on. Handling for demonstration or husbandry (not fooling around) is part of the hobby. We dont handle ours regually because of the number of snakes and our breeding program. However we handle little ones regualy to get used to it.
Here is a reply I gave someone yesterday on the same topic.
Hi guys
As for handling and avoiding being mistaken for a potential food item we only handle our pythons during daylight hours and feed at night. We have never been taged doing it this way and if the enclosure door is opened at night you can see the attitude of the snakes change because they know food is on its way. When the snake gets older and biger a strike for food compaired a defencive strike are very different, dont get mistaken for a food item :shock: because they will hang on.
As mensioned a small snake will be defensive because as you can imagine in their eyes you are a huge moving heat emitter. But also striking is a good thing for keeping little ones feeding (compaired to limp or a placid young snake which can be hard to feed. I have had 2 here that took *7 MONTHS* to take their first feed, but all is good now). But most will settle down in time.
We have all our snakes in a rutine as said above which keeps them calm at day and a good feeding responce at night just so the snake isnt confused at what is going to happen when you open the door at night - food or hand?
Just a thought


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## cris (Oct 3, 2008)

DDALDD said:


> Troyster, I certainly can't tell you what to do with your snake if you so choose. I'd say that most people with common sense know when is overkill. What worries me is what I kind of mentioned in my last post. Maybe common sense is not enough, snakes are more complex to read than say dogs which can bark, whine, grovel, shiver, yelp, wag tails etc. In which case I'd like to know more about correctly reading my reptile.



IMO a fair indication of whether or not a snake is stressed is if it tries to hide if given the opportunity. There are also subtle signs in the way the snakes move etc. but its hard to describe and IMO not the sort of thing you can easily notice without experience. Obviously defensive biting is a sign of stress(unless its a feeding bite).


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## caustichumor (Oct 3, 2008)

Most of the people who claim that there is absolutely no problem with handling pythons "as much as you want", are more then likely the owner of a spotted python, which they have owned for a couple of months, and since it is still alive, they know everything that there is to be known about reptile husbandry....
Sensible handling i.e when cleaning out enclosures, ect is fine (and valid for keeping an animal that can be inspected without inflicting too much stress), the problems occur when people come home pull out there animal and plonk down on the couch to watch 2 hours of tv, while there snake has fun with walkies.....


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## Barno111 (Oct 3, 2008)

WoW i cant belive how many people dont handle there snakes. I find it is fine for my snakes to be handle everyday. If you wish to have a quite snake then it is a must you handle it when it is young! yes you may take a couple a of hits but big woop. My mates who have more snakes then me handle theres every night for a couple of hours, and their big BHP they take out in the sun to get his hit ove vitiman D for the day. Plus the snake catcher from here who is a good friend of my freinds and he was how i brought my recent little baby off. He handles his main snakes everyday, without a hassle. Also i handle mine whilst watching TV or a movie but never ever let her gone one the floor or leave my hands. well thats my oppion


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## beeman (Oct 3, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> Most of the people who claim that there is absolutely no problem with handling pythons "as much as you want", are more then likely the owner of a spotted python, which they have owned for a couple of months, and since it is still alive, they know everything that there is to be known about reptile husbandry....
> Sensible handling i.e when cleaning out enclosures, ect is fine (and valid for keeping an animal that can be inspected without inflicting too much stress), the problems occur when people come home pull out there animal and plonk down on the couch to watch 2 hours of tv, while there snake has fun with walkies.....


 

Well put! couldnt agree more!


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## beeman (Oct 3, 2008)

Barno111 said:


> WoW i cant belive how many people dont handle there snakes. I find it is fine for my snakes to be handle everyday. If you wish to have a quite snake then it is a must you handle it when it is young! yes you may take a couple a of hits but big woop. My mates who have more snakes then me handle theres every night for a couple of hours, and their big BHP they take out in the sun to get his hit ove vitiman D for the day. Plus the snake catcher from here who is a good friend of my freinds and he was how i brought my recent little baby off. He handles his main snakes everyday, without a hassle. Also i handle mine whilst watching TV or a movie but never ever let her gone one the floor or leave my hands. well thats my oppion


 
Mate you dont have to handle a snake every day to have a quiet snake thats a load 
of BS. We rarely handle ours except for husbandry requirements and cleaning and 
dont have a bad natured snake amongst the lot.


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## weet-bix (Oct 3, 2008)

Same here Beeman and caustic.....................what a croc that they have to be handled all the time to be quiet. They are afterall a native animal not a domesticated pet or fluffy toy.


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## salebrosus (Oct 3, 2008)

I regularly handle all of my snakes but Tsar, a Darwin Python that will bite any object in close proximity to it. He gets really worked up even when i clean his enclosure so he only gets handle during clean time.


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

my 2.5 year old bredli just wants to be around us, as soon as i get home he starts hassling to come out, i open his cage, we cuddle for 10 mins then i put him down he curls up somewhere and watches telly with us.
sometimes he makes his way back onto the lounge and sits on me,...most of the time he wraps himself around the leg of the coffee table and looks in the direction of the TV, he does seem to like being part of teh 'family'.
(hes generally out for 6 hours a night)
if im cooking he sits across my shoulders (i like to keep an eye on him so he doesnt disappear) and he doesnt try to get down, just cruises around my shoulders,...

hes is definately not stressed by it,,,,whether or not he likes it i dont know (i guess he does otherwise he wouldnt plaster himself against the glass as soon as he sees me), i think i'm a favourite climbing object of his,...

i think its inmportant to have animals that dont get stressed by handling incase they get sick.


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## caustichumor (Oct 3, 2008)

Wow Chris1, only 6 hours a night! You could have saved money on an enclosure by putting a pet basket at the bottom of the bed:lol:


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

hehe, he cant be trusted in a pet basket! 
besides, thats where they boy beardie is gonna be sleeping soon since the dragons are now starting to wake up before me!


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## Barno111 (Oct 3, 2008)

No you get good natured snakes, But if you are hand raising them for 6 months on they are always abit nippy at that age dur to being soo small. Thats all i was saying i handle mine new little baby every day so she gets use to being handle and no i am not a threat. If you go without handling your snake from a young age they will be more cage protective and more scared of you!


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## Hetty (Oct 3, 2008)

Oh Chris, you just ask to be flamed don't you?


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## darkangel (Oct 3, 2008)

i don't believe they HAVE to be handled everyday. i'm by no means an expert but i have found that most even when not handled are usually quite calm still. having said that i believe that if you hold a snake that is bitey or flighty etc with regular handling in small amounts (i started off with about a min or 2) they soon learn that you aren't a threat to them. there are obviously going to be snakes that just will not ever like being held and probably others that will have no issues what so ever.
i don't get much time to hold all my snakes and there's one in particular i don't hold at all unless it's to clean her cage. while she has never bitten me yet she does hiss and lets it be known she doesn't want to be held at all. i also have another who doesn't seem stressed when she is held but every now and then will try and have a bite to let u know she's not too keen on it. she doesn't try and get away and will move around happily while u hold her though.


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## hydropython (Oct 3, 2008)

there's a lot of inane comments here.

The simple fact of the matter is that we can't personify reptiles as having a human view of the world. They are however, capable of being conditioned to behave in certain fashions (depending on the individual animal of course) and not be threatened by human contact.
There is even a possibility that some do seek the contact.

However, due tot he fact that we can really only read the body language of a snake and infer the cause of the behaviours based upon a simplistic model (possibly accurate, possibly not).

Warmth and the provision of heat energy for metabolism is a major requirement for any endotherm. If you condition the behaviour of the individual to associate the presence of certain "smells" and shapes with a positive experience, there is a much higher chance of the animal being untroubled by such interaction.

However, as the individual moods of all animals change, we can probably assume that certain driving forces change in similar fashions in the reptile psyche. Again, a snake that is sometimes placid can deliver a nasty feeding response if behaviours are not observed or the survival instinct is just too great at any one time.


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 3, 2008)

hydropython said:


> there's a lot of inane comments here.
> 
> The simple fact of the matter is that we can't personify reptiles as having a human view of the world. They are however, capable of being conditioned to behave in certain fashions (depending on the individual animal of course) and not be threatened by human contact.
> There is even a possibility that some do seek the contact.
> ...


 
Well put.


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

Hetty said:


> Oh Chris, you just ask to be flamed don't you?



heeheehee, i seem to,..!!


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 3, 2008)

Try and explain this behaviour, the other night in the middle of the desert I was observing a large King brown snake with just half its body sticking out of loose sand. After a while I gave it a tail touch and it completely disappeared into the sand only to come out of the sand a minute later. It then casually cruised over to where I was standing (in just a pair of socks) about 6 feet away then rested his head completely on top of my foot for about a good 40 seconds as if to enjoy the heat or something. Then it started tongue flicking gave a hiss while practically opening its mouth and that’s when I kicked it off toward the direction it came from. 
The question begs, what was going through its head?
My thoughts were in this order, the snake came over to me because it smelt something that may have been worth checking out or it was it just a coincidence that I was in the way, it stopped rested experiencing the thermal change, decided to smell taste the area (Sock) and decided that I was actually a threat or perhaps live prey. It never got a chance to display an action after that besides traveling a small distance through the air.


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> It never got a chance to display an action after that besides traveling a small distance through the air.



hahaha, i shouldnt laugh but i cant help myself,...!!


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> my 2.5 year old bredli just wants to be around us, as soon as i get home he starts hassling to come out, i open his cage, we cuddle for 10 mins then i put him down he curls up somewhere and watches telly with us.
> sometimes he makes his way back onto the lounge and sits on me,...most of the time he wraps himself around the leg of the coffee table and looks in the direction of the TV, he does seem to like being part of teh 'family'.
> (hes generally out for 6 hours a night)
> if im cooking he sits across my shoulders (i like to keep an eye on him so he doesnt disappear) and he doesnt try to get down, just cruises around my shoulders,...



Great post Chris1 
do you ever put a collar and lead on him and take him for a walk (or slither) in the park? 
my snakes just love their snakewalker collar and leads  check it out !!!!  

http://www.snakewalker.com/


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## TrueBlue (Oct 3, 2008)

I can just picture you doing that too Dave.

My animals are used for breeding, not for play toys.
Snakes are solitary animals as a rule, and only come together to breed or eat each other depending on species, so are best left alone as much as possible imo.
I used to manage a reptile display and have seen first hand the effects over handling can, and in most cases, will do to them. And its not good. Simple as that.!!!


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

hehe, nah, he doesnt need one, he comes when called, knows to look right and left when crossing the road etc, the only problem is the small children he eats while hes waiting for me outside coles,...!!



Colin said:


> Great post Chris1
> do you ever put a collar and lead on him and take him for a walk (or slither) in the park?
> my snakes just love their snakewalker collar and leads  check it out !!!!
> 
> http://www.snakewalker.com/


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## cris (Oct 3, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Try and explain this behaviour, the other night in the middle of the desert I was observing a large King brown snake with just half its body sticking out of loose sand. After a while I gave it a tail touch and it completely disappeared into the sand only to come out of the sand a minute later. It then casually cruised over to where I was standing (in just a pair of socks) about 6 feet away then rested his head completely on top of my foot for about a good 40 seconds as if to enjoy the heat or something. Then it started tongue flicking gave a hiss while practically opening its mouth and that’s when I kicked it off toward the direction it came from.
> The question begs, what was going through its head?
> My thoughts were in this order, the snake came over to me because it smelt something that may have been worth checking out or it was it just a coincidence that I was in the way, it stopped rested experiencing the thermal change, decided to smell taste the area (Sock) and decided that I was actually a threat or perhaps live prey. It never got a chance to display an action after that besides traveling a small distance through the air.



The snake clearly wanted a hug, when it realised you wernt going to give it a hug it felt rejected and got angry. Its quite easy to understand how a snake thinks just put yourself in its position and think like a human.


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## DDALDD (Oct 3, 2008)

Getting good responses! It seems to be a subject that has people divided down the middle. Or the quarter mark. 

Just so people know what I was originally getting at, I wasn't talking about handling your snake for hours each day (which I suspect would be impossible if you're a breeder anyway) though some people apparently do. I was more talking about 10-20 mins every second or third day just to see it and marvel at it. Not really to play with it. Snakes amaze me. I only own one little Stimson's and I never see it. It's always hiding under it's paper towel substrate. I have not yet handled it either except for cleaning as it has not yet had it's first feed with me. But yes, I'd eventually like to occasionally bring it out, if only to see it!


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## Mangles (Oct 3, 2008)

When I only had one, I would get it out every few days and it was fine with this. Now I have a lot more, if I had the time i could get one out per day, and they would still only get handled once every two weeks. 

Roughly i would handle each snake once per week, but only for a few minutes when cleaning out their enclosure. 

My personal opinion is they do not like being handled although they will usually tolerate it..

Generally they would be handled more when young, just to get them conditioned to it so when they are larger they accept getting handled when it is necessary. Saying this, when young it is more important to get them settled in their enclosure and eating well before worrying about handling. If the snake stresses easily and you handle it a lot, they can go off their food.


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## Khagan (Oct 3, 2008)

I only have 1 snake and lucky if i handle him for 10 mins once a week, i really don't see the need to handle for long periods every day. When he's out cruising his tub i just open the lid and let him come out on his own and gentley pick him up and he's happy to cruise around on my arms and then when i wonna put him back he is happy to go off my arm into his tub by himself.

I try not to make it a stressful situation for him and so far have had no problems with him.


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

DDALDD said:


> Getting good responses! It seems to be a subject that has people divided down the middle. Or the quarter mark.
> 
> Just so people know what I was originally getting at, I wasn't talking about handling your snake for hours each day (which I suspect would be impossible if you're a breeder anyway) though some people apparently do. I was more talking about 10-20 mins every second or third day just to see it and marvel at it. Not really to play with it. Snakes amaze me. I only own one little Stimson's and I never see it. It's always hiding under it's paper towel substrate. I have not yet handled it either except for cleaning as it has not yet had it's first feed with me. But yes, I'd eventually like to occasionally bring it out, if only to see it!



theres no harm having a look at it when you clean the enclosure etc. and its probably good to keep a watch on its health and growth rate.

I use upside down pot plant water dishes with a small side entrance for hides and when they are coiled up on top of these its easy to just lift it up and gently slide the snake into your hand. If you just let it move around and use your other hand to support it (not grab or squeeze) they are usually relaxed. Too much handling at the one time will probably get it agitated after a while, so short sessions like I described when your feeding, cleaning etc get it used to you and you used to it etc in the least threatening way. 

why its under the paper most of the time is probably because it feels safer and more secure. If its just a young animal (under 12 months old) it just normal behaviour. usually once they grow and get a bit more size and age they relax a lot more and probably dont feel as threatened as they may have when younger and smaller.


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## Ned_fisch (Oct 3, 2008)

In my opinion, theres nothing wrong with handling them. Really, wants the point of having them if you don't. When I first got a snake, I would have him sit around my neck for up to an hour... Now I'm mostly only handling them for photo's, to show people, see how good they look after a shed or to give them a little bath. Yet every day I'll get each one of them out for 5-10mins, but with my male Jungle, I handle him longer as he is still a bit snappy. 

I think its great for them to be out, means they get to explore rather then being stuck in there enclosure all day...

When I start breeding snakes I'll only handling the hatchlings so there not to snappy for the buyers.


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## Hickson (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't handle my snakes unless I have to - cleaning, vet exams, moving to another cage for breeding or husbandry purposes etc.. Occassionally I will get a snake out to introduce to someone who hasn't had a closeup experience with a snake, but that is very rare.

The reason I don't handle them is simple: they are wild animals. I get enjoyment out of watching them the way they are. Handling does little to enhance that feeling. I also have several snakes in quarantine at present - handling them as little as possible is just good practice (in my opinion).

Most - not all - are used to being handled, so when I do need to handle, it is not a problem. This is important as it doesn't stress them out unneccessarily.

Mind you, if I had the opportunity, I would move them around more often as exposure to the outside world means many more sensations to taste and would be excellent enrichment for them.



Hix


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## Australis (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris1, ive got to say - i basically disagree with most things
you say, but damn your good value!


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## beeman (Oct 3, 2008)

Barno111 said:


> No you get good natured snakes, But if you are hand raising them for 6 months on they are always abit nippy at that age dur to being soo small. Thats all i was saying i handle mine new little baby every day so she gets use to being handle and no i am not a threat. If you go without handling your snake from a young age they will be more cage protective and more scared of you!


 

Sorry to dissagree with you statment, But i refer you back to what i originally
posted as it still stands!
We keep a fairly large collection and dont handle unecessarily there is no need to.
Handling hatchling or juvie snakes places them under stress.
Basicly if you want a pet to cuddle and play with get a dog or cat they love it


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

Australis said:


> Chris1, ive got to say - i basically disagree with most things
> you say, but damn your good value!



heehee, thanks, i do try!


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## DDALDD (Oct 3, 2008)

Colin, that's sound advice, thanks.


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## FAY (Oct 3, 2008)

I have nothing against handling reptiles..just *especially NOT *when they are hatchlings!
They are much easily stressed, will go off their food and become snappy! 
From my experience they will naturally settle down just being handled once a week or whenever they need cleaning. 
I understand that being a new snake owner you want to 'play' with it and touch it as much as possible, but I personally feel that snakes just don't like it and are the most fragile of all the reptiles. JMO


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## melgalea (Oct 3, 2008)

i have to disagree with sooo much rubbish that has been written on this thread. if i was to truely write what i feel i would most likely end up with a infraction. so i will try and be fairly polite.
i do not and will never ever ever just handle for the "fun" of it. 
snakes DO NOT WATCH TV OR MOVIES...... 
handling snakes for hours on end means you will most likely end up with a stressed out or sick snake. 
just because it may sit there quitly certainly doesnt mean it is enjoying it. it simply means it is just simply putting up with you annoying it every second of the day. 
i really would love to write how i feel right now, but..... 
i have only been keeping snakes for 7 years, in that time i only take out for feeding, cleaning, overall health checks, strecth on the grass and THATS ALLL... i havnt had a sick snake, and i think its due to the fact they arnt stressed. they have there own locked room , and i check on them everyday. i dont even need to open any enclosures to check on them, just simply look through at them. 
snakes are meant to be looked at , not touched. 
for the people out there who think its "ok" to hold there snakes everyday for hours at a time, or have them loose in the house watching tv, then i think that this is the wrong hobby to be in, and i do feel sorry for the reptiles in care. 
this reply HAS NOT been pointed at anyone , just a general reply to the thread. 
hope i havnt offended anyone, hav my flame suit on anyway. so theres my rant,


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 3, 2008)

zoocam said:


> i have to disagree with sooo much rubbish that has been written on this thread. if i was to truely write what i feel i would most likely end up with a infraction. so i will try and be fairly polite.
> i do not and will never ever ever just handle for the "fun" of it.
> snakes DO NOT WATCH TV OR MOVIES......
> handling snakes for hours on end means you will most likely end up with a stressed out or sick snake.
> ...


 
I agree ... not ok to hold snakes for hours at a time. Still, I think your never handle except for husbandry approach comes from your view of keeping snakes as a _hobby_, as apposed to those who have a small number of snakes which they see as _pets._ 

This is a fundemental difference of perspective. For example, someone who has a 'pet' snake (and handles responsible for short periods with respect to the animals wellbeing and behaviour) might find it hard to understand how the attitude of 'snakes arn't meant to be touched, just looked at' can be held, when at the same time you could just as well argue 'snakes are wild animals and should be left as such and not held/bred in captivity'. 

My opinion (which apparently - according to some people - is invalid as I am a first time owner of a spotted python), is that it's up to the individual if they handle or not, but if so the person needs to take their cues from the animal itself. 

Lizzie


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## Mangles (Oct 3, 2008)

zoocam said:


> i have to disagree with sooo much rubbish that has been written on this thread. if i was to truely write what i feel i would most likely end up with a infraction. so i will try and be fairly polite.
> i do not and will never ever ever just handle for the "fun" of it.
> snakes DO NOT WATCH TV OR MOVIES......
> handling snakes for hours on end means you will most likely end up with a stressed out or sick snake.
> ...




Totally agree.


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## hydropython (Oct 3, 2008)

zoocam said:


> i have to disagree with sooo much rubbish that has been written on this thread. if i was to truely write what i feel i would most likely end up with a infraction. so i will try and be fairly polite.
> i do not and will never ever ever just handle for the "fun" of it.
> snakes DO NOT WATCH TV OR MOVIES......
> handling snakes for hours on end means you will most likely end up with a stressed out or sick snake.
> ...



Unfortunately, your comment bears an unfortunate similarity to the i have a cute hatchling spotted python and i hold it every day from when i get home to when i get to bed.

The similar factor is a total lack of anything but supposition and personal anecdotes. "snakes are meant to be looked at , not touched." This comment is the worst part of it.

Snakes aren't meant for anything. nor are humans - except survival.

At the end of the day it woudl be impossible for someone who has a large collection to hold any animal for an extended period of time on a regular basis, the amountof animals would prohibit this.

HOwever, some snakes can respond well to situations such as this with no ill effects. Some don't respond badly to extended periods of handling.

ITS AN INDIVIDUAL ANIMAL TRAIT, not a you have to keep them like this, with your cage facing north to south, the feng shui just right, you must never open a cage without first repeating a sutra and dancing around in a circle 35 times clockwise and 43.2 times anti-clockwise.

Just because you have managed to keep your own collection in this way, doesn't necessarily mean its the only way to do things.

Look at the american bearded dragon information given about the necessity for daily bathing.
It may work, but its certainly not a necessity.

the argument is similar to this.

Just as some dogs are totally intolerant of contact with people or other dogs, some are not.

You'd be inexcusably hypocritical for claiming that similar individual behavioural variation cannot exhibit itself int he reptilian world as well.


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

I dont care what any of you say  Im gunna get a (fake) diamond collar and lead for my beloved pet diamond python "pinchy' 
so we can play in the park together and have fun even though she has trouble catching the frisbee in her mouth but she'll soon learn 

she was named after homer simpsons pet lobster "pinchy"


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## hydropython (Oct 3, 2008)

Colin said:


> I dont care what any of you say  Im gunna get a (fake) diamond collar and lead for my beloved pet diamond python "pinchy'
> so we can play in the park together and have fun even though she has trouble catching the frisbee in her mouth but she'll soon learn
> 
> she was named after homer simpsons pet lobster "pinchy"



how many people do you think actually missed that correlation?


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## notechistiger (Oct 3, 2008)

I've always handled snakes for hours at a time. It depends on the snake completely. If the snake becomes stressed, it goes back into the enclosure.

Some people need to get off their high horses and realise that not everyone does things the way their do. Their word is not gospel. Agree to disagree. If Chris1 gets her snake out at night for hours at a time, then no one should condemn her. If zoocam wants to believe what she believes, then that is her opinion, and that's fine. As I've said repeatedly, there are many different ways of caring for snakes, and _everyone_ should respect that.


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

hydropython said:


> how many people do you think actually missed that correlation?




probably all the ones suffering anthropomorphism but are in denial


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## melgalea (Oct 3, 2008)

whilst i respect the opnions of everyone else. i too have my opinon. pls note that i never said that my way is the ONLY way, i was just stating that, that is how i keep my reptiles and i havnt had any problems with it. 
and colin, i think ur jungles would look lovely in a dimaond encrusted collar and lead


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## Mangles (Oct 3, 2008)

Colin said:


> I dont care what any of you say  Im gunna get a (fake) diamond collar and lead for my beloved pet diamond python "pinchy'
> so we can play in the park together and have fun even though she has trouble catching the frisbee in her mouth but she'll soon learn
> 
> she was named after homer simpsons pet lobster "pinchy"



If she gets dirty on her walk, you can put her in a nice hot bath.


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## caustichumor (Oct 3, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Some people need to get off their high horses and realise that not everyone does things the way their do. Their word is not gospel. Agree to disagree. .



Who exactly is on their "high horse"? As far as I can see no-one has been targetted in particular, and differing opinions have been expressed (which was the intention of this thread)
At the end of the day it is up to each keeper to decide how best to care for their animals. However I think giving out sound proven husbandry advice should take precedence over baseless claims which do not aide the animal in any way.


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Some people need to get off their high horses and realise that not everyone does things the way their do.



when a live animals health and well being is possibly being threatened by someones well meaning but incorrect care, dont you think its in the best interests of both the animal and the keeper to be advised of usual methods that people with more experience care for their animals with time proven excellent results? Or should these people just bite their tongue and let these well meaning but inexperienced and (sorry - no offence intended to any particular person) possibly incompetent newbie keepers continue these unrecomended practises? 

If the same thing was applied to say a dog or a horse or a child.. where well meaning but inexperienced and possiblly incompetent people were doing things that may endanger the health or well being of a dog, horse or child, people would be outraged and ring the RSPCA or child welfare. So why should people allow these owners to continue without friendly advice and help. After all this is supposed to be a reptile forum where new keepers learn from more experienced keepers time and tested methods in caring for animals that these new keepers basically have no experience or know much about? 

Just because someone buys an animal doesn't give them the right to treat them any way they see fit. 



notechistiger said:


> As I've said repeatedly, there are many different ways of caring for snakes and everyone should respect that. .



exactly true.... some right ways and a lot of wrong ways :lol:

*I respect everyones right to have an opinion... but having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it right *


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

well, Lokis thriving after 2 and a half years of incorrect care from an imcompetant keeper,...so theres more than 1 way to successfully keep animals.


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> well, Lokis thriving after 2 and a half years of incorrect care from an imcompetant keeper,...so theres more than 1 way to successfully keep animals.



It’s probably more a case of good luck than good management... 

you said it :lol: but I’m glad we can both agree on your competence at least  that’s a start.. 
it's spelt incompetent not imcompetant by the way Chris

snakes are different to keeping dragons if that’s what "loki" is.. I've been keeping snakes for over 20 years and still find a lot to learn... 

like I said earlier.. I respect everyones right to have an opinion... but having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it right  cheers


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

Colin said:


> like I said earlier.. I respect everyones right to have an opinion... but having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it right  cheers




haha, exactly, so what makes urs so right?
(the fact that it came from u!!? LOL)

Lokis a bredli, i wish he didnt wanna come out every night cos i'd prefer to crash on the lounge which i cant do while hes out,...
btw, i was being sarcastic with the comment on my incompetence, i'm so happy you agree!


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> haha, exactly, so what makes urs so right?
> (the fact that it came from u!!? LOL)
> 
> Lokis a bredli, i wish he didnt wanna come out every night cos i'd prefer to crash on the lounge which i cant do while hes out,...
> btw, i was being sarcastic with the comment on my incompetence, i'm so happy you agree!




no not because its come from "me"  because its a similar opinion held by experienced keepers of long standing and experience... 
whereby yours is held by you and other inexperienced keepers that anthropomorphosise their animals.. thats why..


just one thing though please.. next time pinchy (ooops I mean loki) is out watching television with you.. cover his eyes if your watching the simpsons whacking day episode as that may traumatise the little guy :lol:


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## melgalea (Oct 3, 2008)

Colin said:


> when a live animals health and well being is possibly being threatened by someones well meaning but incorrect care, dont you think its in the best interests of both the animal and the keeper to be advised of usual methods that people with more experience care for their animals with time proven excellent results? Or should these people just bite their tongue and let these well meaning but inexperienced and (sorry - no offence intended to any particular person) possibly incompetent newbie keepers continue these unrecomended practises?
> 
> If the same thing was applied to say a dog or a horse or a child.. where well meaning but inexperienced and possiblly incompetent people were doing things that may endanger the health or well being of a dog, horse or child, people would be outraged and ring the RSPCA or child welfare. So why should people allow these owners to continue without friendly advice and help. After all this is supposed to be a reptile forum where new keepers learn from more experienced keepers time and tested methods in caring for animals that these new keepers basically have no experience or know much about?
> 
> ...



very well put colin 
mel


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

of course i'll cover his eyes, no animal should be subjected to such trauma! LOL!!

snakes cruise around in the wild when they feel like it (damn that god man is irresonsible,...!!!),...its not like i hold Loki for 6 hours, i let him cruise around and have a stretch,...!!

and i learnt from Homers mistake, Loki doesnt get hot baths, he has warm showers with me! ;P


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## xScarlettex (Oct 3, 2008)

yeh i say handlings ok, ive handled my stimson from day one about 4-5 times a week n shes fine, she reaches for my hand when i put it in her enclosure, she practically lives more in my shirt than she does in her tank.


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## Hetty (Oct 3, 2008)

No matter how much people try to justify annoying their poor animals, all it should come down to is what is best for the animal. Handling the animal (for the human's enjoyment) is not what is best for it.


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## Colin (Oct 3, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> damn that god man is irresponsible
> 
> its not like i hold Loki for 6 hours, i let him cruise around and have a stretch,...!!
> 
> and i learnt from Homers mistake, Loki doesnt get hot baths, he has warm showers with me! ;P



OMG yes he is  we agree on that for sure 

thats ok then.. letting them out for a stretch is different to constant handling for long periods of time. thats what I dont agree with.

lucky loki :lol: a snake massage afterwards maybe? and a glass of red? 

he's one smooth bredli dude this loki :lol:


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## Saz (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't believe my snakes enjoy being handled, although I don't think it stresses them out to the point of damaging their health

For example, if I put their hide near them when they are being handled, rather than continue exploring they will slither off if given the opportunity and go curl up in their hide. That says it all really.

I only handle them for cleaning, other than that they get left alone which seems to suit them.


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## sweetangel (Oct 4, 2008)

I dont think my snake loves being handled or out of his enclosure. on the contrary i think he would prefer to be left alone under his log. but i do still take him out occasionally so he can get some real sunlight and fresh air. I also some times take him out to show people, alot of people are scared and have the 'a dead snake is a good snake' attitude. so i show people that they are not all that bad, they are beautiful and not at all slimey.

on average i take my snake out once or twice a week, at the most. not becaue i think its wrong, just because i dont think he loves it and it can be hard to get him out some times due to the amount of stuff i have in their, he loves it though.

my monitors also hate be ing taken out and handled, but i try to handle them more so that they are used to handling. when they are quieter i will probably take them out less. at the moment its a conditioning thing. take them out about 4 times a week.


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## tattoolizzie (Oct 4, 2008)

OK, so obviously there is a general consensus amongst both those that like to handle and those that don't is that prolonged stress is not good for a snake, can impact health/feeding and so on and interfere with normal physiological functioning - this is a phenomenon well documented in complex animals as well. 

I just want to put an argument forward though - that when looking after any animal, in the interest of it's health and welfare, it should be allowed to display it's natural behaviours. for example, an aboreal snake should be able to climb, a burrowing snake should have a substrate which allows it to do so etc etc. What I'm getting at with this is: if a snake has a natural tendancy to be stressed by percieved threats, would it really do any harm to the snake for it to be handled (in moderation) and experience the physiological effects of mild stress every now and then? Isn't a stress/fear response a natural/instinctive behaviour? And no, I am not trying to say it's fine to expose any animal to deliberate and prolonged stress - however, I am still not convinced by the 'never handle they don't like it' view. Even if they are just tolerating it - in the most case (ie when is not affecting the animals health in any measurable way) how can you be sure it is doing any harm?

PS. Opinions are like a*******s - every ones got one


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## DDALDD (Jan 3, 2009)

tattoolizzie said:


> Even if they are just tolerating it - in the most case (ie when is not affecting the animals health in any measurable way) how can you be sure it is doing any harm?



That's an interesting point, if the snake is still eating, shedding, growing etc regularly how can we know if what we're doing is harming it?


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## shiloh2768 (Jan 3, 2009)

Every snake is different. As is every other animal. Some tolerate us, some don't.
My snake gets handled every day either by myself or my family. I am ALWAYS watching for signs of distress as opposed to stress. If I thought for one minute that Stuart was not tolerating handling, then he wouldn't be handled.
Each to their own, I say. Each keeper knows how much their snake can tolerate.


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## draqonfly (Jan 4, 2009)

i dont have a snake... but what i do believe is

every snake has its likes and dislikes. strength and weaknesses. 
maybe a snake doesnt like your scent and wouldnt like you to hold it. maybe one would like your scent, attracted to it, and enjoys you holding on to it. 
maybe some snakes really hates their enclosure, maybe some may love it so much that they dont want to leave.
maybe some are heavy sleepers and waking them up from a wet dream would really piss them off.
maybe your body temperature is warmer than a person next to you, so your snake likes to slither on your body to feel warm and soft.
maybe your house is colder than the enclosure.. therefore taking the snake out will upset it.
maybe the way you handle the snake has got to do with its happiness. probably let it slither around you rather than restricting it to only move around your hands and arm. im sure if i was a snake and the only place i could go is around the hands and arm after slithering like a maniac out in a cold room would really upset me... hell i would bite more than once hehehhehe ! and ill bite again next time for even trying !!! itll be my only way of communicating to say " piss off " ! :evil:

anyways sorry to barge in this thread. nice reads though !


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## Harmony67 (Jan 4, 2009)

*Very interesting thread*

I have read this thread and am surprised by how adamant people are who do not believe in handling at all. 

I have had many snakes over the last 10 years and have handled particular types of snakes quite frequently, while avoiding handling other types. 

My colombian boas are held often and I enjoy their company. It's nothing for me to sit for several hours with a snake on my shoulders or curled up on my chest. I have only two young boas at this time and I alternate days that I hold them. Both are very resistant to being returned to their enclosures and hold tight to me when I attempt to release them. I used to have a very large, very old male BCC who would lay anywhere warm, with anyone, for many hours. When he tired of human contact he would take himself off to a warm enclosure off the edge of the room and curl up in there. He was taken out of his regular enclosure a couple of times a week for exercise and never showed any signs of stress.

My jungle-corns are very flighty when first removed from their enclosures but seem to calm down very nicely after exploring me a bit and just sit quietly tangled in my hair or on my shoulders. I handle them less frequently as they are not my favorites and were purchased for my boys. They also resist being returned to their enclosures and seem content to sit on a person.

I only handle the hatchling corns to keep them docile enough to be fed and to have their enclosures cleaned. They seem to prefer to be left alone so I do so. I am keeping these snakes for a friend temporarily and don't feel the need to treat them as pets as she doesn't handle her snakes anyway.

My spotted python, which is my newest snake and the first spotted I have had, is quite young and extremely bitey. I handle her to try to see if she is hungry bitey or leave me alone bitey. So far hunger has been the clear winner. When she doesn't want food (which is seldom) she settles right down and sits calmly in my hand. She is the most entertaining of the snakes at this point because she knows I am not food but seems to comprehend that if she repeatedly "tastes" me I will feed her.

I used to keep blood pythons and blue beauties, neither of which were handled except for feeding and cleaning. I also kept royal pythons which were rarely handled as they were mainly wild caught rescues that I was trying to rehabilitate. I am against keeping wild caught animals as they have established patterns and shouldn't need to adjust to captive life, let alone deal with uneducated keepers who get them cheap as a novelty and abuse them.

The king snakes and rosy boas I used to keep also were rarely handled. Smaller more active snakes just don't seem proper for handling, imo. 

All in all, I keep snakes that I feel are fine with being handled. As stated by a previous poster all creatures have their own set of characteristics and some of a species with accept attention whilst others will not. I believe it depends on the snake.


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## Azzajay77 (Jan 4, 2009)

zoocam said:


> very well put colin
> mel


 
I agree, very well put Colin.

It does become confusing for a newbie though who i trying to do the right thing by coming onto these forums for advice only to be bombarded by differing opinions.

You can only ask for so much advised before you head tries to explode from the you should do it this way, no that way, no this way replies.

I appreciate that people are going to have certain opinions and views. Who is to say what is right though and what is wrong.

It's like the dog on the lounge. 

So many people treat their dogs and cats and other pets in a way that would make some people shudder and get their backs up due to the difference in how they keep their own.

Is there ever going to be a right answer? 

There is definetly a wrong answer - when the animal is put in obvious danger. 

Sorry i probably shouldn't comment. I don't have a snake. I am looking to get one but one of the main reasons i haven't is due to the conflicting information re how to look after one. 

Personally though if i was to get one i'd probably opt to handle it more often than not, i find that less crueler than keeping one in a click-clac.


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## Insane (Jan 21, 2010)

Gday all,

just a quick question, there seem to be people in this thread confusing "handling" for "taking out of enclosure and letting roam a bit"

could you guys that are AGAINST handling, please define if you are against say, letting a python out of its cage to roam around a warm loungeroom for a few hours?

or if you are just against trying to handle and "pet" a snake.

Cheers,

Daniel


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