# Is it better to leave snakes where they are than to relocate them?



## GBWhite (Nov 21, 2017)

Interesting thought. Won't go down well with snake relocators if it can be proven...hahaha.


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## Foozil (Nov 21, 2017)

Interesting. It may seem ignorant of me, but I would rather leave any snake on my property for a number of reasons. Maybe not a little suburban property, but a rural property for sure.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 21, 2017)

As most people say, they are not after people not after people. 
However i feel like just for peace of mind I’d want a venomous snake moved from my backyard because I don’t want to turn the corner, spook the snake, and be in ER the same day.

Perhaps if i knew they’d stay around the back of the yard and not come near the house where my dogs and that like to play, then no problems at all!

Pythons sure they can do what they want in and around my house (just don’t spread diseases :’) )

Ultimately I wish everything could live in my backyard and deter thieves with a lethal dose of venom from guard snakes, but alas that can’t be a reality


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 21, 2017)

When you keep and breed Jack Russell Terriers, the snakes have to be moved on for their own safety. I have come home on several occasions over the years to find 7+ piece brown snakes.


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## pinefamily (Nov 21, 2017)

There are new restrictions on reptile relocators that say any reptile must not be moved further than "x", and must be relocated in a similar environment. At least that's in SA.


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## GBWhite (Nov 21, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> As most people say, they are not after people not after people.
> However i feel like just for peace of mind I’d want a venomous snake moved from my backyard because I don’t want to turn the corner, spook the snake, and be in ER the same day.
> 
> Perhaps if i knew they’d stay around the back of the yard and not come near the house where my dogs and that like to play, then no problems at all!
> ...



Even if you spooked the snake your chance of being bitten would be next to if not zero. You haven't got to worry about pythons spreading any disease, more a worry if there are any rodents around. People that don't know us think we have vens running loose around the house so we just let them think that...lol.



Aussiepride83 said:


> When you keep and breed Jack Russell Terriers, the snakes have to be moved on for their own safety. I have come home on several occasions over the years to find 7+ piece brown snakes.



Up until recently we had a couple of Jacks (male passed away last year, still got his sister) pretty fiery little buggers. We used to get Browns and Blue Tongues show up in our yard at Inverell regularly and get Red Bellies, Small Eyed's, Swampies, Green Trees, Blue Tongues, Water Dragons and Carpets show up here all the time. Our guys were trained to leave them alone. Unfortunately I've seen plenty of Jacks end up on the wrong side of snake bites as well. The father of our two used to take on snakes and ended up dead from a RRB.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 21, 2017)

Yeah mate, my jacks are pretty full on, they've been trained to not harm turtles thus far, which has worked really well for me, perhaps I could use my pythons to train them to leave snakes alone? Probably be better with some rubber snakes... I managed to safely remove all the blue tongues out of harm's way but snakes will come and go more frequently... but most of the time come and not go. The sire of my current dog was killed by a brown snake bite on a property about 30km from my place 4 years ago, he was chained up at the time and was unable to control the situation and lost. Jack's would probably be the closest thing to a mongoose when it comes to battling snakes, mine are the short-legged breed and provided they don't get bogged down in long grass.... I'm confident they'll be ok if and when any future confrontations arise.


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## GBWhite (Nov 21, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> I'm confident they'll be ok if and when any future confrontations arise.



Like a dollar for every time I've heard that. Let's hope they don't fall foul to one. Lot of farmers out western NSW use them for snakes and rodents instead of cats and told me the same thing when I used to travel around doing snake shows. Often showed up again at a show a year or more later and told me that they'd lost their Jack to a snake.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 21, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> Like a dollar for every time I've heard that. Let's hope they don't fall foul to one. Lot of farmers out western NSW use them for snakes and rodents instead of cats and told me the same thing when I used to travel around doing snake shows. Often showed up again at a show a year or more later and told me that they'd lost their Jack to a snake.


Yeah it happens but touch wood, the Jack pack will stand tall. Before my wife came to Australia from Messina, South Africa, they had a Jack pack 30 strong and it would drive away lions that came too close. They are the boldest K9 breed ever bred in my opinion and I love them to bits. 7.5 kilos of heart.


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## Yellowtail (Nov 22, 2017)

Sorry but this subject upsets me, I can't condone the keeping of any dogs that attack wildlife and it is inevitable that any dog that attacks Eastern Browns will eventually get bitten. My German Shepherds live harmoniously with Brush Turkeys that nest in my yard and other native birds, Blueys, Red bellies and Brown Snakes, I welcome the snakes because they keep down the rodents that are attracted to my aviaries. The Shepherds have been trained but generally the breed does not attack animals and are smart enough not to get bitten, they rarely bark but do so to get my attention when a snake comes near the house or aviaries. All reptiles are protected species and allowing dogs to attack them is no different than killing them yourself with a shovel.
And yes I relocate Browns from near the house to 50 metres away under my suspended aviaries where the rodents are.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

I grew up with shepherds in the upper Macleay Valley, 3 of them. On occasion they would kill our hens but were soon disciplined not to do that anymore. They never went near any snake or reptile that I can remember. JRT's are a totally different animal, born and bred hunters and will bolt anything and everything, even a German shepherd, size doesn't mean a thing to a JRT. 
What happens on the property when we're not home is out of our hands, we do our bit to keep anything from getting in but if they happen to get a hold of the odd snake... I certainly don't go out of my way to harm snakes, regularly drive out to mum's to move snakes on out of her greenhouses.


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## Nero Egernia (Nov 22, 2017)

Why wouldn't you want snakes in your backyard? I try my utmost to _attract_ them to my backyard!

I have numerous native birds around my residence and when a snake or large lizard happens to visit the birds let me know with their alarm calls. They even do it when I bring my pythons outside. I was particularly pleased when they noted me to the presence of a sizable Dugite the other day. Hope it sticks around. It'll be in no danger of people and their shovels so long as it stays at my place.


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## SpottedPythons (Nov 22, 2017)

Me: *Sees snake on the driveway. Goes and gets shovel. Shoos the snake into the yard with it.*


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

Unfortunately in the world we live in not every person shares the same view of snakes in their yard. I know several property owners up here that are 4th and 5th generation Graziers who shoot black and brown snakes upon sighting them on a weekly basis. I've heard many stories, even as many as 5 in a week, these are old cocky's in their 60's miles from anywhere, and there's no changing their views on this subject believe me...
Why would someone deliberately run over turtles on the road, actually swerve to hit them.. who knows, I cant understand that but it actually does happen..
I choose to move the snakes for their own protection, so my dogs don't make chew toys out of them... thankfully it's not something I need to do often.


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## Yellowtail (Nov 22, 2017)

Unfortunately that is a common attitude and one day I will end up in jail for dealing with one of these rednecks.
Why are the laws regarding harming protected species not enforced with the same zeal as they persecute us it we don't have our records in order? I've seen a car deliberately swerve to run over a bluey, sent rego to National Parkes but never heard anything.
Not being home is no excuse for your dogs chewing up a snake, it's like setting a mouse trap and saying it's not my fault it killed a mouse while I was out. Can't understand Shepherds killing hens, only problem I've had is young Shepherds do what is hard wired in them and try to round up birds etc.



Oshkii said:


> Why wouldn't you want snakes in your backyard? I try my utmost to _attract_ them to my backyard!
> 
> I have numerous native birds around my residence and when a snake or large lizard happens to visit the birds let me know with their alarm calls. They even do it when I bring my pythons outside. I was particularly pleased when they noted me to the presence of a sizable Dugite the other day. Hope it sticks around. It'll be in no danger of people and their shovels so long as it stays at my place.


Usually it's the birds that alert the dogs who then react, Birds alarmed by snakes used to be my no 1 way of locating wild snakes when it was not illegal to catch them.


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## GBWhite (Nov 22, 2017)

Obviously ignorance is bliss to some and it certainly is a pity if it happens on such a regular basis up your way Kev but old (and young) grazier's views can be changed with the right approach and a bit of education. I can't count the number that would attend my live pit shows at shopping centres and local shows all over NSW and hang around at the end of each one or come up to me during down time to tell me that it was the best education they had ever had on snakes and then hang around and have a chat about the snakes on their property. I used to get heaps attend again the next year when I was back at a showground or shopping centre to tell me how having a chat had changed their attitudes toward snakes and that they had stopped killing them.


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## Yellowtail (Nov 22, 2017)

Unfortunately a lot of people are trapped in the past but we hopefully live in more enlightened times. They used to shoot tigers once and much to my regret I participated in spearing harmless Blue Groper when there was fierce competition to have speared the largest of the poor helpless creatures, I used to kill sharks with powerheads too but no-one does now.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

Unfortunately yellowtail, the law and enforcing the law are 2 very different things... she's a big wide world out there and someone on a remote property in the sticks shooting a snake to (in his eyes) protect his livelihood, is going to happen whether the law says it's legal or not and whether you or I think it's morally right or wrong.. As GB mentioned, education is the key to changing attitudes. We that know snakes, know they are not going to go out of their way to actively seek us out and randomly attack us, you'd be amazed how many people think that they do.

Similarily to your hit and run bluey incident, I once observed a fisho from a distance catch a turtle on his fishing line, disgusted by this "nuisance bycatch" he removed the hook with minimal care, removed a roll of electrical tape from his pack and proceeded to tape around the turtle's shell until it was entirely taped, inside its shell, resembling a blue frisbee... he then simply threw it back into the river to drown. I waited a few minutes and then entered the water and went searching for the turtle. Thankfully they can remain submerged for 2 hours. After I found it, I removed the tape and inspected for any further injuries and released it and reported the matter and nothing ever came of it... turns out the law isn't all that concerned if the animal abused isn't furry, fluffy and cute, like a koala.
I've been to campsites on rivers and found whole turtles that were thrown into fires alive and burnt to death by fisherman still with the books in their mouths, I've found them hanging from Banksia trees along streams left to die... the photos I have would boil your blood.

Anyway, Aside from leaving my dogs locked inside the house or muzzled during the day (both non options) there's not a whole lot more i can do to be honest. My dogs are working animals and are used regularly on feral pigs and foxes, they will without hesitation nail a snake (defending their patch and litter). Remember we're talking about once in 18 months - 2 years or so here, not a weekly or monthly occurrence that's for sure. Jack's recognise snakes very clearly as a threat and will dispatch them, undoing that hard wired instinct would take a phenomenal effort with no guaranteed success. The dogs are there to protect and watch the property. I have 2 daughters under the age of 10, I don't need them stumbling onto and coming face to face with a ven looking for water or an easy feed in the immediate house yard that's for sure.

Life goes on and we all do our best with our own individual circumstances... perhaps when I'm retired and the kids are outta my hair and I'm your age I'll retire to the quiet life and build a wildlife sanctuary and trade the Jack's for an indoor lap dog and welcome back all the things I currently have to keep at bay.  sounds like a good retirement plan to me.



Yellowtail said:


> Unfortunately a lot of people are trapped in the past but we hopefully live in more enlightened times. They used to shoot tigers once and much to my regret I participated in spearing harmless Blue Groper when there was fierce competition to have speared the largest of the poor helpless creatures, I used to kill sharks with powerheads too but no-one does now.


I think the way the world is going now it's actually going backwards not forwards... my childhood was a lot like yours, my parents encouraged me to get out and explore nature, I had bug catchers, ant farms, lizards, snakes, frogs, turtles, spiders in enclosures everyhere. I was fascinated by insects and was a huge David Suzuki fan. I as a 6 year old wanted to be an entomologist.

Nowadays kids are plonked in front of the tv with their iPads, ipods and smart phones. My wife's friend's 2 year old son cries if a fly lands next to him... no... the world in my opinion is going down the toilet, people today are fast losing touch with the natural world... not appreciating it more. I think the people of this forum and other forums with other animals are a dying breed. The concrete jungle is the new normal and we're never going to be the way we used to be.. in the good old days.


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## pinefamily (Nov 22, 2017)

With the farmers, it's not that black and white in regards to snakes. Speaking to farmers around us they are indeed quite happy to shovel or shoot a brown any near their homes. Out in the paddocks though they usually leave them alone because they keep the mice numbers down in the crops.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> With the farmers, it's not that black and white in regards to snakes. Speaking to farmers around us they are indeed quite happy to shovel or shoot a brown any near their homes. Out in the paddocks though they usually leave them alone because they keep the mice numbers down in the crops.


The blokes I'm talking about will shoot them, both brown and black whilst on the tractor down in the paddocks even, when I asked why, the reply was "using a bullet is cheaper than losing a $10,000 steer to a snake bite, a good kelpie or a stock horse."


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## Yellowtail (Nov 22, 2017)

We stopped people spearing Groper, (they used to say groper swallowed divers ) killing White Pointer sharks and shooting crocodiles, why are snakes different and it is against the law, they should be prosecuted, fine a few $10,000 and they may think differently.


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## pinefamily (Nov 22, 2017)

While I agree with you in principle, Yellowtail, it's going to be hard to fine someone who has a split second to decide on how to protect their livelihood, whether it be stock or anything else.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

I guess sharks, grouper and crocs are a little different?? When I enter the sea, I accept that I'm no longer on top of the food chain and if I was attacked by a shark, that's nature... same with crocs... spearing grouper is/was a sport, like big game hunting... just senseless killing for bragging rights.. A bloke I used to work with paid $10,000 to travel abroad and shoot a bear. What for?? A trophy?? 

Land owners simply see themselves as protecting their livelihood, they've got big big $$$ invested in cattle, animals, horses and have you seen what some working kelpies go for?? Wow!!! I couldn't believe it... I somehow don't think we'll ever see the day a farmer is prosecuted for shooting a snake...


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## GBWhite (Nov 22, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> The blokes I'm talking about will shoot them, both brown and black whilst on the tractor down in the paddocks even, when I asked why, the reply was "using a bullet is cheaper than losing a $10,000 steer to a snake bite, a good kelpie or a stock horse."



See that's exactly what I meant by ignorance. It is very, very rare that cattle or horses die as a result of a snake bite. Due to the size of our vens fangs they would never find evidence of a snake bite on the animal and never have an autopsy undertaken due to the expense, they just assume that the beast or horse died as a result of a snake bite without any conclusive proof what so ever when in fact there is a bag full of more logical and acceptable reasons that may have led to the death. Even something as simple as the beast or horse accidently consuming a number of horseshoe nails that are used to secure barbed wire to a fence or even a piece of barded wire itself. Stock horses are actually used for the production of snake venom. Dogs are different but it's their own fault, they are the aggressor every time. Like I said earlier it's not that hard to change their view with a little education.

I think that you'll find that it's not illegal to kill a snake if it is considered by the person to be a threat to them, or others in the immediate area or livestock or pets.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

Yep I agree but your logic will fall on deaf ears a lot of the time. I've shown some of those blokes photos of myself with snakes, my daughters holding pythons and they call me crazy. Lol you can't win them all, all the time. Some people simply have their ways and nothing will change it.

Out of curiosity, are you saying that if a beast or horse trod on a black or brown snake whilst grazing and was bitten as a result, that the snake's fangs wouldn't penetrate or that it would and cause death but you'd just never know conclusively that's what actually happened??


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## Yellowtail (Nov 22, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> I think that you'll find that it's not illegal to kill a snake if it is considered by the person to be a threat to them, or others in the immediate area or livestock or pets.



The problem there is that ignorant people think that a snake in the vicinity is a threat, as you know most snakebites occur when the victim is trying to kill or catch the snake.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> The problem there is that ignorant people think that a snake in the vicinity is a threat, as you know most snakebites occur when the victim is trying to kill or catch the snake.


That's true too BUT unfortunately ignorant people have the rights to act within their own means too... Johnny Smith, 4th generation farmer who never finished school who only knows farm life and has grown up taught by his forefathers that the only good snake is a dead snake will act accordingly... we can't judge others by our own standards I guess.


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## GBWhite (Nov 22, 2017)

Yeah your right about people. However it's no good just showing them pictures. You have to have a bit of a background in livestock (which I'm lucky enough to have) as well as a pretty good knowledge of snakes and how they interact with livestock and be able to explain benefits they would gain from not killing snakes to have any hope of convincing them. To answer your question...A snake's fang doesn't need to penetrate to envenomate so a bite (or scratch) is very, very hard if not impossible to detect so yes a "bite" can occur but you'd never know conclusively that's what happened.


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## Imported_tuatara (Nov 22, 2017)

simple: use common sense and be cautious when hiking or checking paddocks and such, if you get bitten after walking where there's known to be vens then it's your fault, and people should just supervise their stubborn animals in those hot days or check the area before letting them out,or keep them in a run, it's impossible to ensure that everyone isn't going to be stubborn and kill an animal because of myths and such that it'll kill them on sight, all you really can do is try. Or you know, give them some medical bills to pay.


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## GBWhite (Nov 22, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> The problem there is that ignorant people think that a snake in the vicinity is a threat, as you know most snakebites occur when the victim is trying to kill or catch the snake.



Exactly...that is the problem.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

I've got a bit of background with livestock. Been employed for the last 15 years as a slaughterman, Hence all my dealings with the local cockies and knowledge of their snake encounters. 

Thanks for the info, so yeah I guess they draw a pretty direct line then... dead beast, snake seen in the area.. no autopsy, no hard evidence but in the Bush, seeing is believing...to many.


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## GBWhite (Nov 22, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Thanks for the info, so yeah I guess they draw a pretty direct line then... dead beast, snake seen in the area.. no autopsy, no hard evidence but in the Bush, seeing is believing...to many.



Spot on.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 22, 2017)

Cheers mate, an interesting thread and a top discussion. I've gota hit the hay, early start. Have a good one.


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## Mouse (Nov 23, 2017)

It's not only the $10,000 dollar steer. (steer maybe the wrong term to use - as it has no breeding value) that is lost. In many cases it's also the time spent, the pregnancy time, the birth and raising time - the potential to be future stud stock or for the freezer. Sometimes there is years of planning and executing that plan to create the outcome. So yes protecting what we have worked hard to achieve may involve shooting a snake or two. That's life on the land!!


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 23, 2017)

Hi mate, steer was the term I intended, for example, the feedlot I work on is the largest in the southern hemisphere and it holds grainfed black Angus steers bred on King island off tassie and brought to whyalla and korean wagyu steers which are being finished for slaughter at no more than 2-4 years old. No breeding intended. Each beast has a worth of 10k.

When you buy porterhouse steaks, T-bone, rump, Rib fillets, scotch fillets etc from the butcher or your local supermarket, you can almost certainly guarantee you're consuming steers. Producers don't send their "cows" and bulls to slaughter until their breeding capability has been exhausted, their teeth are worn down and they're losing condition... old cows get slaughtered and wind up, not on our plates, but in the pet food isle... as pet food. I shoot between 1,000 and 1,350 head of cattle every day... 5,000 - 7,000 head per week, less than 100 of those are cows and bulls, they're all grass or grain fed steers. All young and in prime condition.. The export beef industry is big $$ The Japanese and Chinese pay for a steak dinner what it costs me to register and insure my car for 2 years. You haven't had a prime Aussie steak unless you've eaten a steak at a high end restaurant in China or Japan...


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## Nero Egernia (Nov 23, 2017)

I grew up on a farm. My parents mostly ran sheep. I've never heard of anyone killing a snake with a bullet. It was always done with a shovel or something similar. Venomous snakes were generally targeted when they were near areas that were frequented by people such as home or the shearing shed. Snakes in the paddock were mostly left alone. Pythons, however, were welcomed. They weren't seen that often, but when they were, the whole family would come and have a look.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 23, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> I grew up on a farm. My parents mostly ran sheep. I've never heard of anyone killing a snake with a bullet. It was always done with a shovel or something similar.


Almost always done with a shotgun up here. Simply because most land owners/producers are kicking around their property regularly in the Ute, on horseback or the quad on the lookout for foxes, wild dogs, dingoes, cats and feral pigs... they take a shotgun and rifle at all times... a shovel wouldn't do much good... if snakes are encountered, it's a simple lead injection, a lot easier than swinging a shovel and chasing a snake for an older bow-legged stockmen.


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## cement (Nov 24, 2017)

Interesting thread, took a big tangent out to the rural sector......but i'm guessing the original video shown in the first post has more to do with suburban backyards then out on property.
As a relocator does it faze me to hear of this videos's theory.... nope.

This theory is from some very experienced names here, and it touches on (or close to) my own theories gained for over a decade of relocating snakes.
I have heard many, many stories from people who have happily resided alongside RBBS. (RBBS are one of the most common vens here on the Central Coast), they are literally everywhere. They claim around a dozen dogs here every year.
I have my own theories with relocating snakes, and basically I don't care if I do a call out or not, its not my primary source of income (you would go broke quicker then someone playing the pokies if it was). The way I see it is that it is very beneficial to have ALL snakes around, BUT I don't want accidents happening, so I work on the principal that I only attend non ven callouts when the person quite clearly shows signs of phobia, or its in their house. If there's no phobia, and the person is just uneducated then I educate them, with my goal being to talk them into leaving the snake there. 
Vens,... I have no problem moving on, like I said, I don't want accidents. A couple of incidents I will relate here... - 5-6ft eastern tiger in a garage narrowly missed being tread on by a woman wearing open shoes no socks and bare legs, multiple death adders next to or on porches where people leave their lights on, multiple large blacks in garages with the odd one asleep on the mat outside the garage -living room door. I've removed dozens of blacks out of bbq's, houses,even under the xmas tree among the presents.
Snakes have a home range for sure, but they are nomadic through that range depending on the season and the prey. The prey plays a huge role here, in and around dwellings its why the snake turns up. 
So, I agree in part, and I tell members of the public that having a python around is much more beneficial then not, because one reason is that they keep a lid on the population of prey animals. It could just as easily be a ven doing the work , as it could a python, they all work on the principal that it is the scent trails of the prey that lead the snakes in, so having a python on site will be lessoning the amount of scent getting around. If they make me take away the gentle, placid python I'm free handling while I talk to them (AKA the top of the food chain), then the prey animals will boom and more animals, more scent, and the one that comes in next may be the ven.
I do have a question for the people behind the video,,,,how do you know if the snake is a resident of any substantial time? And if there is a surplus of prey in an area there could easily be more then one snake in the area, but who was there first? and if a snake is trodden on at night in an unlit garage would it really matter if the owner thought they knew the snake and the snake him, or would it bite???


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