# What type of Beardie is this



## nemooy (Dec 12, 2010)

Could someone please tell me what sort of beardie I have. He is about 2 years old and I bought him as just a bearded dragon. He is not as wide in the head and body as most of the others I have seen. He/she is not normally this wide but is sitting under the heat lamp.

Any info would be great.

Thanks
Nicole


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## James..94 (Dec 12, 2010)

How long is he/she?


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## Redtailed (Dec 12, 2010)

looks like and eastern but someone more experianced will comment soon.


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## nemooy (Dec 12, 2010)

He/she is approx 40cm


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## SomeGuy (Dec 12, 2010)

It *is* an eastern


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## James..94 (Dec 12, 2010)

Yeh eastern.


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## nemooy (Dec 12, 2010)

thanks everyone, much appreciated.


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## Wally (Dec 12, 2010)

Spines across back of the head says Eastern.


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## hornet (Dec 12, 2010)

did you purchase it on licence? If so it should have the scientific name on the paperwork but i agree it does look like an easter (pogona barbata)


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## CamdeJong (Dec 12, 2010)

I think it's a vitticeps. Spines on the back of the head usually form a straight line on barbata. Also barbata typically lacks the lighter patterning on the back and the vivid tail stripes, and has a much more angular head. The spines on the chin and sides are fewer and not as large as those on barbata. I actually think it might be bred for scale reduction, a common trait in captive vitticeps breeding nowadays.


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## Wally (Dec 12, 2010)

CamdeJong said:


> I think it's a vitticeps. Spines on the back of the head usually form a straight line on barbata. Also barbata typically lacks the lighter patterning on the back and the vivid tail stripes, and has a much more angular head. The spines on the chin and sides are fewer and not as large as those on barbata. I actually think it might be bred for scale reduction, a common trait in captive vitticeps breeding nowadays.


 
I beg to differ.


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## Bushman (Dec 12, 2010)

I also reckon that it's _Pogona vitticeps_, based on the fact that the scales around the base of the tail are heterogenous without the regularly spaced enlarged rows that are characteristic of _P. barbata_.

What species was it bought as? I didn't think that there was a species code for _'Pogona sp'_.


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## James..94 (Dec 12, 2010)

Just throwing it out there, but I think more likely a hybrid than pure.
It is showing traits of both Centrals and Easterns.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 12, 2010)

P. barbata tail enlarged rows (pointed out by Bushman)


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## 1issie (Dec 12, 2010)

Central,easterns have a pointy head but in this case no so it is a central


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## Wally (Dec 12, 2010)

I understand what you are both saying but the flank and head spines don't support your argument.


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## 1issie (Dec 12, 2010)

Find Show us your beardys and find my pic,he is a pure central,they look alike


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## SomeGuy (Dec 12, 2010)

we all know its an eastern and these other people are wrong.


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## Bushman (Dec 12, 2010)

What are you basing your argument on SomeGuy?


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## giggle (Dec 12, 2010)

Central.

Its almost too fat to tell!! ROFL... you need to get a pic of the back of its head if possible  But looks like a vitticeps (central) to me.  Its just your typical plain grey which are pretty uncommon these days! 

Easterns
















Centrals


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## SomeGuy (Dec 12, 2010)

Bushman said:


> What are you basing your argument on SomeGuy?



facts.


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## Bushman (Dec 12, 2010)

What facts?


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## giggle (Dec 12, 2010)

Having said that... I really believe there are some crosses going around... vitticeps x barbata. Yours has large scales on its nose... and from my observations pure barbata have elongated ear openings where as vitticeps have smallish round ear openings. Yours has halfway between...


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## CamdeJong (Dec 12, 2010)

SomeGuy said:


> we all know its an eastern and these other people are wrong.



This is far from an argument, this is an educated debate in the search for a correct answer. We all have our opinions and I'm not too keen on being referred to as an "other person". Or being automatically assumed wrong. And Wally76, how do the flank and head spines contrast our opinion? Those are very ordinary spines for a central, and abnormally small for an eastern.


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## SomeGuy (Dec 12, 2010)

Okay its a central.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 12, 2010)

From a taxonomic standpoint the separation of species denotes an inability to interbreed so I doubt it's a cross. Eg a Jungle Carpet (M. s. cheynei) can breed with a Diamond Python (M. s. spilota) as they're of the same species but not with a Green python (M. viridis)


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## Wally (Dec 12, 2010)

CamdeJong said:


> This is far from an argument, this is an educated debate in the search for a correct answer. We all have our opinions and I'm not too keen on being referred to as an "other person". Or being automatically assumed wrong. And Wally76, how do the flank and head spines contrast our opinion? Those are very ordinary spines for a central, and abnormally small for an eastern.


 
In your first post you say that P barbata have a straight line of spines across the back of the head. This is incorrect, the spines actually run in a backward facing arc which is clearly shown in the pics provided.


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## James..94 (Dec 12, 2010)

I have a cross that shows both traits of Centrals and Easterns. Which this beardy does.
Anyway whatever is written on the license is probably correct.


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## giggle (Dec 12, 2010)

CamdeJong said:


> From a taxonomic standpoint the separation of species denotes an inability to interbreed so I doubt it's a cross. Eg a Jungle Carpet (M. s. cheynei) can breed with a Diamond Python (M. s. spilota) as they're of the same species but not with a Green python (M. viridis)



no.

There are many documented crosses actually. And not only that... there are jungle cross GTPs... a seperation of the species does not mean they are unable to breed.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 12, 2010)

I stand corrected. I appear to have had the spine direction back to front between barbata and vitticeps. I'm still not entirely convinced of the species however, and I'm now entertaining the possibility of it being a cross.

On the point of crossing, it is a scientifically applied method of classification to separate species based on the inability to cross, but it's always been true (especially of Australian reptiles) that classification is far from a finite endeavour, forever changing. 
And I'll be looking up GTP x Jungles, sounds awesome!

This has been a very informative debate. Cheers.


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## giggle (Dec 12, 2010)

CamdeJong said:


> I stand corrected. I appear to have had the spine direction back to front between barbata and vitticeps. I'm still not entirely convinced of the species however, and I'm now entertaining the possibility of it being a cross.
> 
> On the point of crossing, it is a scientifically applied method of classification to separate species based on the inability to cross, but it's always been true (especially of Australian reptiles) that classification is far from a finite endeavour, forever changing.
> And I'll be looking up GTP x Jungles, sounds awesome!
> ...



First gen look HORRIBLE... but then they refine it a bit they can look alright. Its a big thing in America, doubt it will become popular here.


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## Wally (Dec 12, 2010)

P barbata are more than capable of showing the coloration/patterns depicted also.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 12, 2010)

No worries. I certainly hope it doesn't become big in Aus. It'll bee hard to know if what you're buying is purebred, and what happens when a cross escapes? Scary stuff.


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## JasonL (Dec 12, 2010)

CamdeJong said:


> From a taxonomic standpoint the separation of species denotes an inability to interbreed so I doubt it's a cross. Eg a Jungle Carpet (M. s. cheynei) can breed with a Diamond Python (M. s. spilota) as they're of the same species but not with a Green python (M. viridis)


 
Centrals and Easterns can certainly interbreed, and easily at that.


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 12, 2010)

Interbreeding (or inability to) is not a characteristic that can accurately split two species or genera. There are many, many cases of obvious interspecific and intergeneric crossbreeding in reptiles, plants and mammals - and that's just what I know of personally. Some of these are sterile, but there are records of female mules (horse/donkey) being sexually viable. Nearly all Australian python species that have been interbred, and not just the _Morelia spilota_ subspecies, regularly reproduce in captivity - just look at the state of most of the pet quality _Antaresia_.


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## Rep-Style (Dec 12, 2010)

CamdeJong google carpondro and you can view a see of pics of all sorts of carpet x green trees. some look awsome but for the most part they are average looking animals.


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## GeneticProject (Dec 12, 2010)

I didn't know it was an Easter beardie hornet  I'm sure it should be a Christmas beardie this time of year .


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## rio_rat (Dec 12, 2010)

it looks vitticepsy


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## serpenttongue (Dec 12, 2010)

What colour is the inside of it's mouth?


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## pepsi111 (Dec 12, 2010)

serpenttongue said:


> What colour is the inside of it's mouth?


yea that is a way to tell =]


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 12, 2010)

Unfortunately mouth lining colour isn't a consistent characteristic for differentiating _P.vitticeps _and_ P.barbata _either. Obviously it's not a front on photo but you can still tell it has a yellow mouth yet is obviously _P.vitticeps_. This is the exception to the rule but does occur.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 13, 2010)

Cheers Jonno. I did digress earlier on the point of inbreeding, but I hadn't considered things like mules. I was more referring to the use of sexual separation in defining taxa. It's a very liquid concept anyway. On the point of the dragon, I shouldn't have tried to justify my opinion in the first place as the only reason for me claiming it was a vitticeps was its general appearance. But being the first one to say vitticeps I didn't want to look like i was pointlessly challenging the general opinion. Good to know my ID was correct. Thanks mate.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 13, 2010)

And yes, there is never a rule without an exception =)


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## Wookie (Dec 13, 2010)

I always hated taxonomy in biology. So vague and contradictory. They define species as animals that can interbreed to produce fertile young but different species do that all the time!


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## CamdeJong (Dec 13, 2010)

Yeah I've just finished my first year of Zoology. Always loved latin names, but taxonomy itself is just plagued by too many differing opinions. It makes for a very interesting and informative topic if you can wrap your head around it, and keeps scientists on their toes as it's always changing, but it can be so confusing.


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 13, 2010)

Taxonomy will never be an exact science - it is all about trying to strictly categorise what is really just points on a continuum. 

By the way, I don't think it's _P.vitticeps_. The main reason for this is the fact that the spines on the back of the head are in an obvious big arc - one of the key identifying points of _P.vitticeps_ is that those spines are in a straight line.


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