# Jaguars in Oz - Poll



## MrBredli (Jul 29, 2007)

Just wondering how everyone feels about Jaguars being smuggled into Australia and appearing on the market, which is bound to happen in the not too distant future. What would you like the authorities to do when this occurs? Would you want them to turn a blind eye, so that we can all eventually have them in our own collections? Or do you think the risk of disease and the fact that they are being smuggled in, most likely in undesirable conditions, warrants a full and complete investigation of any Jaguar found in an Australian collection, with massive penalties to those found to have them who are unable to prove they originated here in Australia?


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## Craig2 (Jul 29, 2007)

cant really be to differant to all the supposied aussie gtps , red babies and long faces i dunno


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## MrBredli (Jul 29, 2007)

That's a bit different as a lot of them were declared during the amnesty, at least in NSW anyway. Any GTP's that are found to have been smuggled in after the amnesty would be seized and the owner/smuggler would see themselves in court which is what would happen if someone was found trying to smuggle a Jag into the country. But once they're in, and they appear on the market, should an investigation be initiated then? I wonder if NPWS/DEC etc etc even know what a Jag is.


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## moosenoose (Jul 29, 2007)

Hehehe and while they're at it they can prosecute all those naughty people with boas and the like in their collections also :lol: It can be a rather bogan hobby with the same mentality I'm afraid 

ps: Can't vote...too tanked


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## Recharge (Jul 29, 2007)

hope anyone caught gets the book thrown at them.
supporting such importing only makes it more prevelant and increases the chance of bringing new diseases into the eco system.. 

selfish greed to own something exotic needs to be delt with severely.
and the EPA needs a kick in the **** on so many issues it's scary.
more funding for them please Mr government.


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## Craig2 (Jul 29, 2007)

can you honestly say in the back of your mind you dont think there here already


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## MrBredli (Jul 29, 2007)

Of course they're here, they just haven't 'surfaced' yet.


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## Isis (Jul 30, 2007)

So just because they are here we should condone this behaviour. Lets just hope that they havent already bought in some nasty disease or parasite that will effect our wildlife. I believe they should throw the book at the selfish idiots that jeopardise our wild populations and our own collections for their egos. The laws on quarentene are there for some bloody good reasons and I find it discusting that people would want to risk our own animals.


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## BIG RYANO (Jul 30, 2007)

It will be good when they start coming on to the open market. Another type of carpet for people to own. As a lot of people know, they have been here for a few years now.


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## Magpie (Jul 30, 2007)

How on earth do you prove it?
What about all those people that have claimed their coastals are "jag like" over the last 5 years? Shall we prosecute them too?


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## Scleropages (Jul 30, 2007)

Yer I feel sorry for the poor people who have coastal lines that are looking more and more like jags


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## nvenm8 (Jul 30, 2007)

more to the point! what about the uneducated few that voted outside of option 1 very sad indeed. It is heartening to see that the majority of people have half a brain and the common sense to realise that smuggling puts all of our herps in jeopardy.


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 30, 2007)

inbreeding carpets with the reduced pattern a few generations will lock in the jag pattern sooner or later, then breeding hypo coastal to this pattern will produce carpets that look exactly like jags , well I hope so, 

OF COURSE THE SMUGGLING LAWS ARE THERE FOR EXCELLENT REASONS , ,,,, BUT ???

I think there are plenty of breeders who would import legally, if this was a option , 
then have the jags go through quarantine , like dogs and cats do, 
but the law stops this , or it is almost impossible to get approval to import ,
if allowed to import all the nastie bugs would not make it through quarantine etc ,
and then healthly legal jags could make there way into collections ,


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## Colin (Jul 30, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> inbreeding carpets with the reduced pattern a few generations will lock in the jag pattern sooner or later, then breeding hypo coastal to this pattern will produce carpets that look exactly like jags , well I hope so,
> 
> OF COURSE THE SMUGGLING LAWS ARE THERE FOR EXCELLENT REASONS , ,,,, BUT ???
> 
> ...



Excellent point Roger. 

Personally I think that if anyone gets caught smuggling they will (should) be prosecuted. But if animals are smuggled in and find there way into collections, I can't see how the receivers can be prosecuted especially if they were unaware that the animals they bought (or their young)were o/s origins. How many GTP's of 'unknown' origins are already here? 

Another example is the sun conure. Our borders were closed to import / export (generally) since around 1956 and if you read Forshaw's ' Parrots of the World' the sun conure was unknown to aviculture till about 1972-74 (I think from memory) So how did they arrive here in Australia and be freely available for sale in the 1980's  No one who owned, bred or sold any to my knowledge were ever prosecuted as they were widespread throught breeders. The NPWS turned a blind eye. Yet anyone with these conures could have been 'deemed' to have obtained them illegally. 

Detection of O/S reptiles in collections here from domestic bred ones would be even harder to detect especially if the species is Australian. A DNA test would need to be conducted etc. and I can't see that Government authorities would randomly pay for such tests unless they were pretty sure that the receipents of the animals in question were connected to someone they had hard evidence for smuggling. And if they had the evidence on such a person, they would more than likely arrested, charged and the animals confiscated before they were onsold or distributed to others. (in my opinion)


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## thesilverbeast (Jul 30, 2007)

i hate to ask such a well known question but what exactly are jags? there is many threads on them but not what they are...


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## MrBredli (Jul 30, 2007)

How would people feel if John Weigel imported some through the Reptile Park and then transferred the offspring over to the Snake Ranch?


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## MrBredli (Jul 30, 2007)

Double post.


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## da_donkey (Jul 30, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> How would people feel if John Weigel imported a pair through the Reptile Park and then transferred the offspring over to the Snake Ranch?


 
That would not be possible.


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## cheyno (Jul 30, 2007)

I can't believe over 20% of people have voted No.3!

Just buy an Australian Jag-like carpet for Edited by admin., they look the same. Some of the pictures people have put on here of their Jag look-a-likes are amazing looking snakes. Anyone who is caught with ANY exotic species should cop the full penalty and have the rest of the collection seized I reckon. Why can't people just be happy with the beautiful species that are native to our country!


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## junglepython2 (Jul 30, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> That would not be possible.


 
Why not? I'm pretty sure o/s collectors have access to RSP's due to that route all be it in the opposite direction.


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## grimbeny (Jul 30, 2007)

Im pretty sure weigel wouldnt be permited to transfer them over. 

Cheyno jaguars rnt really an exotic species.

silver beast, a jag is a coastal which has one leucystic gene (allele) which is codominant theirfor it expresses a nice(depending on taste) pattern that look somewhat like a jaguars skin.


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## da_donkey (Jul 30, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> Why not? I'm pretty sure o/s collectors have access to RSP's due to that route all be it in the opposite direction.


 
I dont think they are suposed to be available to the public o/s, and if they are its due to an individual breaking the law and it is then no different to puting a RSP in your pocket and jumping on a plane.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 30, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> I dont think they are suposed to be available to the public o/s, and if they are its due to an individual breaking the law and it is then no different to puting a RSP in your pocket and jumping on a plane.


 
But if a zoo breeds imported animals what stops them from selling the offspring to local collectors? I'm sure I have seen at least one RSP on another forum in an o/s collection, think it may even have been posted on here.


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## cheyno (Jul 30, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> Cheyno jaguars rnt really an exotic species.


 
I know that Jag's are coastals ie a native species, but to get a Jag, you have to import it from O/S, as the Jag gene has not (and realistically won't - not legitimately) occurred in Australia. Yes people will argue that it could happen, as coastals are native, hence the snake which originally expressed the Jag gene must have bloodlines originating from Australia. However I would imagine that the chance of this happening again would have to be soo small, but I'm not a genetic biologist. If someones coastals here in OZ did miraculously have a clutch that turned out to be Jags, you can be pretty sure that on of the parents would be a smuggled animal.

However there has been numerous threads on the chances of Jags occurring legitimately, so lets not start another. The plain fact is, to get a Jag, you are importing a snake from OS, which is illegal, and a huge threat to our native populations, even if the species originates from australia.


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## da_donkey (Jul 30, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> But if a zoo breeds imported animals what stops them from selling the offspring to local collectors? I'm sure I have seen at least one RSP on another forum in an o/s collection, think it may even have been posted on here.


 
The US forum with the RSP was posted from somone who works in the zoo.

Im not sure about American laws but im sure in Australia we would have very tight legislation to prevent things like selling to private collectors.
Im not saying it does not happen but it is against the law.

Its like saying JW breeds Burms at ARP why doesnt he transfer them to snake ranch?

Or even better ( and harder to trace) Why doesnt JW import an albino BHP from Europe, then secretly breed it to one of the BHP's at SR and make a clutch of 100% hets.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 30, 2007)

I'm pretty sure it's legal for zoo's to sell to private collectors providing the animals are native, however I doubt it's often done. 
I think the albino BHP would be in a similar boat to the Jags and possible to get them through zoo's who can then sell the offspring to private collectors. The only thing I can see stopping it, is that even for zoo's its a pain to import animals and they would need to justify it. It would be hard to justify getting a coastal or BHP imported when there are so many availbale here.


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## ihaveherps (Jul 30, 2007)

Donk, in the US, several of the trusted lines of Aussie pythons are from zoo stock, specifically there is a line of diamonds that can be traced back to San Diego zoo if memory serves me correctly.

One the topic of Jags though, I would be lying through my teeth if I said I wouldnt want to work with them. On the flip side of the argument, Im not too sure about how I really feel about how they get here. That being said, in my opinion if SR had a hand in bringing them in, to me would be a gross mis-appropriation of stature and resources, and only be done for monetary gain, and although the Ranch itself is a business, bringing the Reptile Park into the transaction is where my problem lies.


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## MrBredli (Jul 30, 2007)

I was waiting for someone to say that before i put this one to you guys. How would people feel if Taronga Zoo did it instead, and all money made went back into the zoo and into conservation projects?


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 30, 2007)

*I'm Hooked*



> Just buy an Australian Jag-like carpet for petes sake, they look the same. Some of the pictures people have put on here of their Jag look-a-likes are amazing looking snakes. Anyone who is caught with ANY exotic species should cop the full penalty and have the rest of the collection seized I reckon. Why can't people just be happy with the beautiful species that are native to our country!


 
PLEASE anyone breeding JAG lookalikes can you PM me as i want to buy one


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 30, 2007)

sorry i tried to quote in my last thread and it didnt work

BUT i'm serious about these local JAG lookalikes


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## SnakePower (Jul 30, 2007)

So what of those people who have worked really hard to breed an Aussie Jag, maybe not genetically a jag by dna (Jan Eric's line), but by all intensive purposes looks just like a jag. I know several breeders who have been working on that, and some of them are producing animals that can't be distiguished from genuine Jags. How do you suppose you separate them from the imported ones?? If they look the part, then people will be willing to pay good money for them, same as an illegal import? How can npws regulate something like that. They are genuine australian bred animals!! I don't doubt that there are some Jags underground, but these Oz Jags are starting to surface now and should breeders be afraid to show their work/achievemnts to be possibly scrutinised by npws for something they have worked on for generations ??


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## Retic (Jul 30, 2007)

I would be seriously interested in seeing a local 'Jag', I have seen snakes with a Jaggish look but nothing that looks remotely like the best Jags.


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## Hickson (Jul 30, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> I was waiting for someone to say that before i put this one to you guys. How would people feel if Taronga Zoo did it instead, and all money made went back into the zoo and into conservation projects?



Neither Taronga Zoo, nor ARP, would be able to import a Jag. They wouldn't get the required permits from DEW. They would need to show some conservation value from importing Jags and as they are simply a genetic pattern morph of a local species, the permits wouldn't be issued.

And if Jags do appear locally in someones collection (either accidentally or by years of linebreeding) the parents and siblings of the Jag could be genetically tested to verify heritage.



Hix


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## flinders (Jul 30, 2007)

seeing as the original jags came from a pair of normal mcdowelli i'm sure we will see them eventually.it's just a matter of time before someone is lucky enough to produce them.i've seen some fairly close to jag looking snakes about.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]


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## turtle (Jul 30, 2007)

Jags are definately here and have been for a while now. Personally i cant wait till they get more common in Australia. They dont need to be smuggled over here either.. There already here.. TRUST ME


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## $NaKe PiMp (Jul 30, 2007)

should be euthanazed like all cat creatures


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## SnakePower (Jul 30, 2007)

boa said:


> I would be seriously interested in seeing a local 'Jag', I have seen snakes with a Jaggish look but nothing that looks remotely like the best Jags.



Boa, I'm not saying people are producing animals that look like "The Best Jags!". Those animals are a product of line breeding cross and selective breeding Jags, for generations after having founder animals that are true Jags.

I am talking about animals that are as good as some standard Jags, coastal Jags, not the latest and greatest! You yourself have animals from Jungleland that are extremely close to a true Jag, you posted those Awesome prosie's just recently! Right??
Then there was the one that he sold in a for sale thread, along with some other striped morphs, it was a single male, just incredible! 

Junglefreak, has produced animals that are extremly close, I remember seeing him post a comparison pic a while ago on a thread on the jag topic. It was a closeup of the side patterns one a jag from the net, the other an animal he produced. He also has a couple of animals on his website, that look very similar and close to a true jag.

I am sure that within the next generation or two that these guys and some others like them will be totally nailing the jag characteristics!! Colour and Pattern wise of course!

These will be true Oz Jags, created from the results of a lot of hard work, time and patients originating from local Australian animals!!


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 30, 2007)

Zac i sent you a PM but you havent replied:shock:


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## MrSpike (Jul 30, 2007)

I'm sorry but I fail to see how the authorities would track down the original person who imported them. 

Here is a hypothetical situation.

1 Person imported the first animal or pair illegally, they breed them after a few years and give some hatchies to their mates, the persons mates bred them after another few years and so on and so forth. The first original animal started in NSW and now they are in QLD, SA, VIC and NT. There are numerous people keeping and breeding them, but not posting them publicly, slowly 1 by 1 the animals appear then they are out on the market. So how do NPWS or customs go about tracking down the original importer/breeder? Surely the first person to import them would have to have coastals to breed them to in the first place yeah, so they will be wasting all their time in money running in circles chasing down the "bad guys". 

It wouldn't be worth even trying to find the original person.

My 2 cents.

Kane


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 30, 2007)

THIS things gunna be close man:shock:


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## viridis (Jul 30, 2007)

I can not see how it is any different to Chondros. I love locale specific animals just as much as anyone but does that mean that I am going to sell our red green tree pythons, as their lineage is questionable?? Not likely. 

I am all for pure animals when it comes to '' normal'' snakes eg like our striped jungles , but at the end of the day flash looking snakes are what people are chasing.

If I saw a Jag that was hot like this animal I posted, I dont care what it is as I doubt that we will ever get a aussie snake bred like this in Oz without a true Jag gene in there.

This animal is a screamer and like I said I would own it no matter what it was. I just dont see the point in trying to create Jags by breeding other sub species of carpet together, I recently saw a pic of a diamond x inland x coastal. IMO it was one of the most dog ugly pythons I have seen.

Any way what is your opinions on this animal?

Cheers Nick


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## Retic (Jul 30, 2007)

I agree Nick, we will no doubt create vaguely similar snakes. That snake in the photo is just amazing, mind boggling.


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## m.punja (Jul 30, 2007)

viridis said:


> Any way what is your opinions on this animal?
> Cheers Nick


 
stunning


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## SnakePower (Jul 30, 2007)

I think that animal was bred in the states and is a Jag, but derived from a Jag x Tiger Jag I think. I believe they are calling them Super Tiger Jags!!
And... YES absolutely stunning!!!


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## krusty (Jul 30, 2007)

if any turn up let me know as im up for one.


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 30, 2007)

*Mad*

Thats all i can say 


I LOVE that pic mate, i"m hooked


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 30, 2007)

She's getting CLOSER


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 30, 2007)

COME ON i want ONE!!!


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## horsenz (Jul 30, 2007)

what sort of impact could it potentially have on our eco-system?


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## Jason (Jul 30, 2007)

i am sure without a doubt that there are jags in the country and they will become available in the future! i am just as sure absolutly NOTHING will be done about it! how on earth can they crack down on them when they do squot about GTP? seriously jags would be more Ozy then most of the GTP in privt collections in Oz because they atleast have australian ancestry. i for one will happily buy one if the offer was there!! as im sure most people would. 
i would be happier with a jag instead of a GTP which i know has no conections with australian gtp, because i know that the jag is somewhat australian. 
i do however hate the idea of people continually importing animals because of the chance of disease's etc!


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## hornet (Jul 30, 2007)

horsenz said:


> what sort of impact could it potentially have on our eco-system?



only thing is risk of disease


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## Jason (Jul 30, 2007)

horsenz said:


> what sort of impact could it potentially have on our eco-system?



if the jags that are being imported are carrying a virus or some bacterial infections, it could result in an outbreak and destro our native populations.
personally i dont think many people actually understand the enormity of the potential problems and the high chances of these animals being a vector!


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## cement (Jul 30, 2007)

I agree, photos i have seen on here that look like the potential very, close jag are enough for me to think let the local (aussie) guys keep doing their thing, it will only be a matter of time, there will be aussie bred jags for everyone. 
No importing of foreign born specimens. Australia is to valuable a ecosystem to risk ruining sections of her through imported crap. Because of ones greed.:evil: 

Not this season but next i'll be looking for a pair.


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## Reaper (Jul 30, 2007)

what would happen if (and this is a big if) someone here in oz was lucky enough to breed a true jag from years of line breeding so on so on........if it happened once there is the very small chance it can happen again.... what happens when this lucky breeder wants to introduce it to our market?? they will be met with alot of sceptisisim and doubt i reckon, kinda sucks if they succeed legitamatly then have to battle to save there reputaiton and not be branded as a fraud! mmmnn, a difficult battle i forsee!!


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## Frozenmouse (Jul 31, 2007)

i want a burmees python , ball python , and a jag oh and a giboon viper, would be good if the government opened up some sort of legit trade and strict quarantine regulations so we could import some of these very sort after snakes legally. if they can import a race horse just for the melbourne cup i am sure its not impossible. ps i am looking at a soon to be dead cane toad out my window , now who imported them?


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## MrBredli (Jul 31, 2007)

Reaper said:


> what would happen if (and this is a big if) someone here in oz was lucky enough to breed a true jag from years of line breeding so on so on........if it happened once there is the very small chance it can happen again.... what happens when this lucky breeder wants to introduce it to our market?? they will be met with alot of sceptisisim and doubt i reckon, kinda sucks if they succeed legitamatly then have to battle to save there reputaiton and not be branded as a fraud! mmmnn, a difficult battle i forsee!!


 
True, but it could easily be proven with a DNA test, and having the only true legit Jag in Oz, i'm sure they would have no problem forking out the cash for the test.


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## no_tofu_speed (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry for this. I've always been curious about this.... 
A jag is a genetic morph of a native Australian species... 
------
Obviously the genetic morph is rare....
But how come it is very very unlikely to occur naturally or through selective breeding within Australia (without using an imported jag).....
But they acheieved this overseas using a species originally native to Australia???

Can someone please explain this? I really don't understand.
Then again I do not understand exactly how and what situation jags originally came about, overseas.


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## MrBredli (Jul 31, 2007)

Simple mathematics; of all the Carpet Pythons ever bred all over the world plus all those ever found in the wild, only 1 Jaguar has ever been found. It's a 1 in a billion thing, but it definately could happen again, but 1 in a billion...


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## Retic (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes it COULD happen spontaneously in someones collection but obviously the chances are incredibly small.
Lets not also lose sight of the fact that many people think the original Jag came from Irian Jaya carpets so maybe no Aussie link at all.
There has apparently been a Jag found here in the wild but we haven't seen the photo's yet


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## m.punja (Jul 31, 2007)

What if someone has already bred them in Australia but hasn't been selling, and over the years the original pair had passed away and all he had was the clutch with the jag/s? How would they go about the DNA test, how far would they go? Also, being that it is just a coastal morph life stripped and hypo (correct me if I'm wrong) then would they be bought and sold as Carpets like the Coastals are? If this is the case then how long would it take for the departments to actually realise there were Jag's in private collections? And would the departments even know what they were looking at?


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## waruikazi (Jul 31, 2007)

m.punja said:


> What if someone has already bred them in Australia but hasn't been selling, and over the years the original pair had passed away and all he had was the clutch with the jag/s? How would they go about the DNA test, how far would they go? Also, being that it is just a coastal morph life stripped and hypo (correct me if I'm wrong) then would they be bought and sold as Carpets like the Coastals are? If this is the case then how long would it take for the departments to actually realise there were Jag's in private collections? And would the departments even know what they were looking at?



I dare say they would know what they are looking at. They look nothing like other carpet morphs. Really without proof they were imported i don't think the authorities could do anything at all. T
o prove they are jags you wouldn't need to do a dna test, i'm not sure they could even find the jag gene in a dna test, the easiest way to prove a jag line would be to cross two over each other and if you get leucies then you can categorically say they are or are not jags.

And we are still waiting for the pics of the wild jag looker!


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## da_donkey (Jul 31, 2007)

Well you would only need 1 jag because jags are allways bred to a normal coastal.

And i think the only way there would be any investigation from authorities, would only be on the back of a tip off from someone else in the hobby.


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## Hickson (Jul 31, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> To prove they are jags you wouldn't need to do a dna test, i'm not sure they could even find the jag gene in a dna test,



The DNA test is not to prove it's a jag. If someone suddenly has a few jags and they say they bred them from a pair of normals, then DNA testing will prove if they came from those parents (and also if the jags are siblings or from different parents). If the jags did not come from any snakes in the collection yet the owner claims he bred them, then you know he got them elsewhere.



Hix


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## Tristis (Jul 31, 2007)

in a few years jags will be everywhere


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## krusty (Jul 31, 2007)

Tristis said:


> in a few years jags will be everywhere




cool i will put my name down for a pair now then.


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 31, 2007)

Tristis said:


> in a few years jags will be everywhere


 

I have two please


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## Australis (Jul 31, 2007)

I wonder if they will ever even TRY and do something about those Albino Darwins in Europe?

I doubt it, and i also doubt they will do anything about "Jags" turning up here.


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 31, 2007)

bump


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## Hetty (Jul 31, 2007)

I doubt they'd do anything about it either. They don't have the resources to track people down and DNA test their snakes.


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## MrBredli (Jul 31, 2007)

Australis said:


> I wonder if they will ever even TRY and do something about those Albino Darwins in Europe?
> 
> I doubt it, and i also doubt they will do anything about "Jags" turning up here.


 
I know as a matter of fact that customs are/were investigating the albinos in Europe.


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## Australis (Jul 31, 2007)

I didnt know that! Im surprised in a good way


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## flinders (Jul 31, 2007)

they don't have the technology in australia to test our snakes for diseases unless they are deceased let alone dna testing for genetics.


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## Hetty (Jul 31, 2007)

flinders said:


> they don't have the technology in australia to test our snakes for diseases unless they are deceased let alone dna testing for genetics.



They wouldn't test for 'jag' genes, they would test the siblings/parents to see if the snakes were related.


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## solar 17 (Jul 31, 2007)

THESIVERBEAST...try...www.moreliagranites.com [and go green with envy on their albino bhp's as well]


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## GEARJAMMER (Jul 31, 2007)

solar 17 said:


> THESIVERBEAST...try...www.moreliagranites.com [and go green with envy on their albino bhp's as well]


nice link there solar 17


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