# Morelia spilota Complex/ Intergrades



## zen (Feb 17, 2006)

Inspired by the discussion generated by the striped Intergrade recently advertised on Herptrader, I thought an examination of the _Morelia spilota _complex was due. 

There seems to be some confusion as to what constitutes a hybrid and exactly what an intergrade is.

I'll start with a great wrap by Dicco as an intro.


> A hybrid is a cross of two things, if you cross a Morelia bredli with a Morelia spilota it is a hybrid, if you cross a Morelia spilota spilota with a Morelia spilota mcdowelli it is still a hybrid. The fact it is a sub-species dose not effect whether or not it is a hybrid, it is not a Hybrid between two species, but it is still a Hybrid, just at a sub-species level.
> 
> The word intergrade is refers to something that has either gradually changed from one thing to another or where two things gradually come together.
> 
> ...




I agree with everything Dicco wrote here but would like to add that true intergrades are not just restricted to Port Macquarie of course. They're found over a fairly wide area of that part of the mid-north coast of NSW. 
As long as people don't take names like this too literally. 
Terms like this seem to work O.K for the Carpets in Queensland, like Proserpine, Atherton, Tully etc. Though it must be understood that these locality names are regional rather than specific. 

I've heard that it's quite complex in the mid-north coast with apparently pure Diamonds and pure Carpets found in the same area along with intergrades. It seems that they seek out others of their kind to mate with retaining subspecies integrity. 
It's been suggested that intergrades are a valid subspecies!


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2006)

Look up 'intergrade' in a biological dictionary, you'll generally not find an entry. I found an older (1992) biological dictionary in an op shop today, which had an entry, but put it as synonymous with hybrid.

What Dicco said about hybrids is true, it doesn't matter whether it's natural or not and as you'll find if you actually look up the definition of hybrid, a hybrid is just the offspring of two non identical individuals.

Why is it that when people say "intergrade" they immediately think of intermediates between Sydney Carpets and Brisbane Carpets? Carpet Pythons vary all along the east coast. A typical Carpet Python from the southern extreme of their range doesn't look the same as a typical one from Sydney, which doesn't look the same as a typical one from Gosford, which doesn't look the same as a typical one from Port Macquarie, which doesn't look the same as one from Brisbane, which doesn't look the same as one from Proserpine...... if what keeps getting called an intergrade is an intergrade, then any Carpet Python on the east coast is an intergrade (between whatever is to either side, or the surrounding area). The same can be said of almost all Children's Pythons (broad sense), along with most species. If the largest city in the country happened to have been built where Pt Macquarie is, there would be a name for that type of Carpet Python, if the next largest city happened to be somewhere far north of where Brisbane is, perhaps Brisbane carpets would recieve the stupid intergrade label.


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## zen (Feb 17, 2006)

Sdaji, so basically you're saying that the term "intergrade" is a misnomer, it seems.
Populations blending gradually, with fuzzy boundaries, rather than retaining subspecies integrity.

I notice that you refer to Sydney Diamonds as Sydney Carpets. Is this because you don't believe that the Diamond is a valid subspecies?. :?

_Morelia bredli_ differs from _Morelia spilota_in that it has more than 9 scales across the top of the head between the eyes. It's therefore considered as a seperate species.

The _Morelia spilota _subspecies however are considered morphologically identical, except perhaps the boof head and generally larger maximum size of _mcdowelli_. The Jungles similarly are different in size, being generally smaller than any other _Morelia spilota_. 
Lord Cogger only seperates the Morelia spilota subspecies according to range. 
e.g. _M. s. imbricata_ - southern WA

Colouration it seems is not a valid distinguishing characteristic.

So I agree that if range is what seperates the subspecies, then the more or less continuous and overlapping ranges of the remainder of _Morelia spilota_ subspecies would therefore blur the subspecies.


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## jordo (Feb 17, 2006)

I agree with Sdaji, there will never be a clear line to distinguish between localities and also we can't really use terms like a "typical carpet python" without raising the question, whats typical?


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## geckodan (Feb 17, 2006)

I have generally avoided this topic but I just can't hold out any longer.
My appreciation of the difference between hybrids and integrades comes from examples in both reptiles and birds. 
IMO " intergrade" is a term that should be restricted to use for naturally occurring hybrid populations that have over many generations IN THE WILD developed into their own unique population. This requires that two very similar species (the fact that they are able to hybridise and produce fertile offspring does go against the true definition of a species and therefore suggests that subspecies nomenclature should be investigated) or subspecies are geographically adjacent each other and this results in hybridisation at the range boundaries. Over time, this natural hybrid boundary becomes its own barrier. This occurs with our well known carpet python debate but also occurs with species such as spinifex pigeons (natural hybrids between red and white bellied forms) . In captivity, if we are offerred offspring that are the articial result of pairing a white bellied spinifex with a red bellied spinifex it is a HYBRID. If we are offered individuals that originate from the area of overlap then they are considered INTERGRADES and are able to validly recieve the subspecies staus designated for that population.
The carpet python/diamond python thing is no difference. For me, an artificially produced offspring of a carpet and diamond is a carpet/diamond hybrid. An individual snake which has its original parentage based on the animals which naturally occur in the overlap INTERGRADE zone is the only animal which can carry this tag. 

In summary, IF WE MADE IT, IT IS A HYBRID.,
IF NATURE MADE IT AND IT HAS EVOLVED IN THIS WAY IT CAN EARN THE NAME INTERGRADE.


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2006)

No zen, but every other type of carpet python gets called a carpet python. The term "Diamond Python" is obsolete, it is a term created when it was supposed that there were diamond pythons (M.s.spilotes) and carpet pythons (M.s.variegata) which all other Morelia spilota were included in. We now recognise that there are many different types of carpet pythons, not just two.

Some of the snakes which were originally thought to be in the "carpet python" category (before it was recognised that there was any reason to call the different "carpet pythons" different subspecies) are considered to be more different from the type specimens of carpet pythons than from diamond carpets ("Diamond Pythons"). Most people now think that snakes such as South Western Carpet Pythons are more different from Brisbane Carpet Pythons than Diamond Carpets are from Brisbane Carpets, so if a Diamond Carpet isn't a Carpet Python, neither should be the South Western Carpet, or many other Carpet Pythons. We call all the other Morelia spilota subspecies carpet pythons, recognising that they're all from the same species.

So far I have never seen anyone else take this view (I've never really discussed it with anyone, but I've never heard anyone call a Diamond Carpet a carpet python) and I stand alone on the issue (not the first time it's happened!) but I'm also yet to have anyone disagree with me.

Jordo: I'm not suggesting that different localities don't have very distinguishable phenotypes. They certainly do. There is a lot of variation between and within localities and it's extremely difficult to deal with taxonomically, because where you draw lines between taxa is often arbitrary. There is more or less continuous gene flow right along the east coast. It's like shades of grey in some cases, but in others it's even more complex.


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## olivehydra (Feb 17, 2006)

If people who define an integrade as something that occurs "over time" and is multi-generational, then does the offspring of a pairing between an integrade and a non integrade have a reduced rite to the term "integrade", as opposed to a pairing between two "pure" integrades?


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2006)

geckodan: I think the problem with carpet pythons is that people don't realise that the carpet pythons intermediate between what you get in Sydney and what you get in Brisbane are not hybrids, they haven't come into existance from a Brisbane type carpet breeding with a Sydney type carpet. Not at all long ago (only about five years) it was widely believed that there were "Carpet Pythons" and "Diamond Pythons" which lived virtually side by side, and these occasionally met up and hybridised, the offspring then generally fading away and never giving rise to long lasting populations. This view, or a watered down version of it is still fairly commonly held. It's a bit like saying that Proserpine Carpets don't form a real population, it's just that occasionally a Brisbane Carpet Python Crosses with a Townsville Carpet Python. We can all see that is stupid, but for some reason this is the way Brisbane, Sydney and their intermediate carpet pythons are viewed.

Perhaps it would help some people to think of it along the lines of it being impossible to create a Proserpine Carpet by crossing a Brisbane and a Townsville Carpet. (Or a Brisbane with a Darwin to produce a cape york!)


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## geckodan (Feb 17, 2006)

> Most people now think that snakes such as South Western Carpet Pythons are more different from Brisbane Carpet Pythons than Diamond Carpets are from Brisbane Carpets, so if a Diamond Carpet isn't a Carpet Python, neither should be the South Western Carpet, or many other Carpet Pythons.



Couldn't agree more. I think what confuse many of these issues is the artificial tags that we apply to these species. To use another bird example, most of us can recognise the common galah. How many can recognise the 3/4/5 subspecies of galahs? If the northern subspecies, E.r.kuhli had been traditionally called the Pygmy galah and this name became part of widespread usage then we would automatically consider it to be more different from the nominate galah subspecies than say he western Australian subspecies is. We focus on the diamond python because we gave it a unique name that has stuck. If we originally called it a diamond carpet then thats what we would be calling it today.


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## zen (Feb 17, 2006)

Wow, things have really raced along since I edited my last post.
Great stuff guys.  
Very interesting and valid points everyone.

So glad that we can discuss this complex & often hairy topic with so much intelligence & maturity.


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## JeffHardy (Feb 17, 2006)

It seems that this argument just confuses the hell out of everyone to the extent that arguments in this current thread are basically arguing whether or not there is none, one or a dozen subspecies of Carpet Python on the east coast and beyond. 

Why can't this issue be settled once and for all by taxonomists making a serious attempt at defining what are, and are not, subspecies by using modern technology - DNA profile variation. Is there no value in this research? I suspect that they'd find that there are no (isolated) DNA defined sub-species, but rather a gradual, almost imperceptible and continuous geographic variation within the same species not only up the east coast and west across the top-end, but also inland and to the south-west of the continent. 

From the keeper/breeder perspective most seem to want to describe their morph by geographic description. But then again there are an ever increasing group that have to create their own colour and pattern hybrids and mutants - some of these people seem to be driven by a perceived divine right to create new varieties that nature can't produce (because of geographic separation or some of the mutations simply would not survive to breed in the wild) and others seem to be driven primarily by potential monetary return. 

From a conservation perspective the desire should be to ensure that natural variation across natural ranges is maintained by presevation of natural habitat and populations. 

Irrespective of motives, I think that everyone would like to see a definitive answer to this perennial question.


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## geckodan (Feb 17, 2006)

> Why can't this issue be settled once and for all by taxonomists making a serious attempt at defining what are, and are not, subspecies by using modern technology - DNA profile variation



Bring it on!!. But who is going to pay for this. Certainly not any government department who's legislation still does not recognise the existence of any subspecies (QLD).


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## herptrader (Feb 17, 2006)

I have preferred the term "race" to describe the different sub species of carpet pythons. Just as we have negros and caucasion humans we also have diamond and carpet morelia spilota.

People talk about language as if it was a static and fixed entity and it is not. It is continuously evolving like many other things. If we as herpers decide to use a certain term to mean a certain thing then all well and good. Another group might choose to place a slightly different meaning on a given word. If we settle on a specific definition and use the word to mean that then that is what it will mean.

Looking at the word intergrade - "Inter" means between and "grade" implies a measured element as in gradual or graduated. In this context I have no problem with integrade meaning species that show gradually different morphology over there range between to quite visually destinct races of carpet python.


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## jordo (Feb 17, 2006)

> There is more or less continuous gene flow right along the east coast. It's like shades of grey in some cases


Thats exactly what i meant - that there are differences in the carpets but that they can't be clearly divided.
Sorry for not being clearer, now i'm going to leave before i hurt myself :lol:


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## Hickson (Feb 17, 2006)

I've argued this point several times before in different threads, so I'm not going to discuss it again. I will, however put up my view (and this is the way we've been using it in the zoo world for years):

Hybrid: offspring of two different species
Intergrade: offspring of two different subspecies (whether occurring naturally or under controlled conditions).




Hix


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## peterescue (Feb 17, 2006)

The meaning of a word is not constant. It means different things in different fields.
Sophistcated metals are alloys, sophistaicated ladies were of mixed perantage. Sophisticated nowadays means something else completely.
A theory in evolution is a law where a theory in other fields isnt.
An intergrade in NSW NPWS system is a locality M. spilota ssp but in other fields is something else.
Thats the thing about language. It also isnt constant. The only thing constant is that it changes constantly.
Next week we will be discussing semiotics.
this > 0 &lt; is a tree.


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## peterescue (Feb 17, 2006)

**********COMING SOON***********
WHY I LIKE/HATE CATS.

Bookings available from the usual outlets


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## bigguy (Feb 17, 2006)

This debate rears its ugly head every 6 months or so, and I am amazed why people have problems grasping what intergrades truly are compared to hybrids.

Lets start with Hybrids first as they are the easiest to explain. A hybrid is where a species, and or a sub species is bred with a different species and or sub species. This mainly occurs in captivity, but on rare occasions can happen in the wild.

Now for intergrades. There are 2 python complexes in Australia where intergrades occur. They are Carpet and Children Pythons. As these two species spread across Australia they took on different colour forms due to envirmental, geographical or climatic changes. Not so long ago most Carpets and Childrens were lumped together as a single species. Due to the work of several taxominist these were divided into subspecies.

So now with Carpets we have Irian/PNG, Top Ends, Jungles, Coastals, Inlands and Diamonds. DNA has shown all of these to be the same species, but with enough suttle differences to warrant sub species status. Centralians and South Western Carpets, due to being isolated from the eastern forms are now very different by DNA standards

With Childrens we now have Spotted, Childreni, Stimsons and Anthills. Again DNA has shown differences between each subspecies.

Now for intergrades. These are not as most people think where say a Diamond mated with a Carpet in the wild. These are actually the missing link as one sub species changed into another due to some geographical, climatic or enviromental reason. Remember, they are all the same species but changed in areas for different reasons.DNA tests have shown intergrades have again suttle differences compared to the two species they seperate

Where ever you find the range of 2 subspecies meeting, you will have intergrades in the buffer zone. If anyone ever takes the time to drive across the base of Cape york you will see this for yourself. There are 3 species of Childrens found along the road from Normington to Innisfail. However you will find 5 colours forms, due to 2 different intergrade zones. Starting from the west you 1st find Childreni, then Childreni/Stimson intergrades, then Stimsoni, then Stimsoni/Spotted intergrades and finally Spotteds.


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## NCHERPS (Feb 17, 2006)

Hix said:


> I've argued this point several times before in different threads, so I'm not going to discuss it again. I will, however put up my view (and this is the way we've been using it in the zoo world for years):
> 
> Hybrid: offspring of two different species
> Intergrade: offspring of two different subspecies (whether occurring naturally or under controlled conditions).
> ...



I agree with Hix on this one.

Neil


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## MrBredli (Feb 17, 2006)

_Intergrade - zoology - to be transformed from one form to another through a series of stages or forms that involve partial transitions_

Intergrade refers to a change that takes place over time. Putting a Diamond and a Darwin in a cage together for a couple of weeks will not result in intergrades, it will result in hybrids!


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## NCHERPS (Feb 17, 2006)

peterescue said:


> The meaning of a word is not constant. It means different things in different fields.
> Sophistcated metals are alloys, sophistaicated ladies were of mixed perantage. Sophisticated nowadays means something else completely.
> A theory in evolution is a law where a theory in other fields isnt.
> An intergrade in NSW NPWS system is a locality M. spilota ssp but in other fields is something else.
> ...



Good points here Peter, I also agree, alot of these Dictionary's were written decades ago, and many don't assess the changes in meaning as time goes on.
Here in Australia people have a bias in a way, as they have always associated an 'Intergrade' with just the naturally occuring one found around Port Mac.
Many europeans and Americans have always considered subspecies crosses to be Intergrades and not hybrids.

A zoological example is the Bornean/Sumatran sub-specific intergrade orangutan, this has never been questioned as anything other than a Intergrade in zoological circles.


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## hugsta (Feb 17, 2006)

Hix said:


> I've argued this point several times before in different threads, so I'm not going to discuss it again. I will, however put up my view (and this is the way we've been using it in the zoo world for years):
> 
> Hybrid: offspring of two different species
> Intergrade: offspring of two different subspecies (whether occurring naturally or under controlled conditions).
> ...




Thankyou Hix..... Couldn't agree more.


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## africancichlidau (Feb 18, 2006)

> Bornean/Sumatran sub-specific intergrade orangutan, this has never been questioned as anything other than a Intergrade in zoological circles.



I think I married one of them once


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

Would someone please run through the current species of the OLD morelia spilota. I only have Cogger Volume 1 for my references and it doesn't contain things like morelia bredli, morelia spilota mcdowelli, morelia spilota cheynii.

In fact, all it has is spilota (Diamond), Imbricata (WA) and Variegata which I guess includes Bredlis?


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## krusty (Feb 18, 2006)

thisa is one very interesting post .........love it......


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## zen (Feb 18, 2006)

I agree Krusty, this is most interesting & informative.  
Thanks everyone for your contributions to the thread.

Thanks especially to Bigguy for an excellent post. 
A very comprehensive and well informed wrap there. Terrific stuff!

Peter, I'll get back to you about the current recognised subspecies tonight, unless someone beats me to it. :wink: 

I'll put some pics up later too.


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## Sdaji (Feb 18, 2006)

:lol:


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## zen (Feb 18, 2006)

Strapping at the bit eh!, Sdaji ? 

I'd better hurry then :lol: 

I'll start by saying there's 6 currently recognised subspecies of _Morelia spilota_, as far as I know.
But I may be out of date already, as these things change like the wind. :lol:


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

Hey Zen, please don't forget the other species, like Bredli, that seem to have once been morelia spilota variegata


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## peterescue (Feb 18, 2006)

M. imbricata
M. bredli
M. spilota spilota
M. spilota mcdowelli
M. spilota cheyii
M. spilota varigata
M. spilota metcalfei
M. spilota mcdowelli spilota
M. spilota spilota mcdowlli spilota
M. spilora mcdowelli spilota spilota mcdowlli spilota
M.spoleto festivale italiano


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## zen (Feb 18, 2006)

*6 recognised sub-species of Morelia spilota*

Good one Pete :lol: You beat me to it. 
You forgot _Morelia spilota peterescue ridiculosus_ :wink: 


Here's the serious breakdown Peter:-

The Centralian Python - _Morelia bredli_ is a valid seperate species now. 
Best not to call it a Carpet Python anymore IMO, to avoid confusion.


*Morelia spilota is divided into 6 sub-species:-*

1. Diamond Python - _Morelia spilota spilota_

2. South-Western Carpet Python - _Morelia spilota imbricata_

3. Coastal Carpet Python - _Morelia spilota mcdowelli_

4. Jungle Carpet Python - _Morelia spilota cheynei_

5. Inland Carpet Python - _Morelia spilota metcalfei_

6. North-Western Carpet Python - _Morelia spilota variegata_


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## bigguy (Feb 18, 2006)

Zen, there is also the PNG/Irian Carpet which is now Morelia spilota harrisoni(I think)

PNG/Irian, Top End, Jungle, Coastal, Inland and Diamond according to DNA belong to the same species.

South Western and Bredli have totally different DNA due to their isolation from the Eastern forms.


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## Dicco (Feb 18, 2006)

I also believe that _Chondropython_(spelling?) is about to be ressurected for The Green Python and it's close relative the Rough Scale Python after the DNA testing.


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## zen (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks Bigguy. I forgot about _Morelia spilota harrisonii_ from Papua New Guinea & Irian Jaya. That's valid.

You also reckon that:-


> South Western and Bredli have totally different DNA due to their isolation from the Eastern forms.



So has _imbricata_ been given seperate species status? 
Do you know who established this?


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## GetCoiled (Feb 18, 2006)

Taylor, Rawlings, Donnellan and Goodman (2003): Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons (Reptilia: Morelia spilota)
Cheers
Stefano


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

So, North Western equals Darwin and Inland equals Murray Darling then I assume. And Bredli was previously Variegata or was it actually a recent discovery like the Rough Scale Python. And if it was merely a re-classification was the rough scale the same or was it a new discovery.

And as it is now illegal to cross-breed hybrids what happens to people that bred Bredli with Variegata when they were both Variegata????

And who is going to do the research on the Port Mac's or Proserpines to add another 2 sub-species. Perhaps Morelia Spilota Brownii?? Or should that be Brown Eyei?


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## Dicco (Feb 18, 2006)

Pete, all of the carpets except for imbricata and bredli which full species now, will soon be the same species, no sub-speices, just local forms, there has been DNA testing, also, the Green Python and Rough Scale will be taken out of Morelia I believe and the old Chondropython genus will be ressurected for them. So all these types of Carpets including Brisbane, Port Mac, Prosperine, Atherton, Sydney ect are just varying reigonal forms, the whole species is just highly varied.


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## NCHERPS (Feb 18, 2006)

bigguy said:


> Zen, there is also the PNG/Irian Carpet which is now Morelia spilota harrisoni(I think)
> 
> PNG/Irian, Top End, Jungle, Coastal, Inland and Diamond according to DNA belong to the same species.
> 
> South Western and Bredli have totally different DNA due to their isolation from the Eastern forms.



The Irian jaya or West papuan carpet has been considered as M.s.variegata for a long time, but I think Hoser might of re-named it as Harrisoni in 2000, I choose to keep with Variegata, although there are clear phenotype differences, so they should I am sure probably be re-classified.


Neil


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

Does that mjean there will no longer be hybrids? And therefore will my hybrid now be a purebreed but simply between two different colour morphs??

My how things change. But for the better in this case. Now I might understand M. spilota.

It seems that accounting is mure pure than zoology.


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## Dicco (Feb 18, 2006)

Well, it's not a hybrid of a species or sub species anymore, but it is a hybrid of two _forms_ of Carpet Python. I still think we should keep the recognised forms pure even though they will soon no longer be seperate sub-species as they are obviously very different to one another. I wonder however, if people will accept these changes?


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

Sorry Dicco, forgot one. As imbricata is now a recognised species is it Morelia Imbricata or still Morelia Spilota Imbricata? And someone was going to post a full set of photos. Perhaps GetCoiled has them all.


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## Dicco (Feb 18, 2006)

It'll be Morelia imbricata, it's become distinct from the other due to isolation.


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## Hickson (Feb 18, 2006)

GetCoiled said:


> Taylor, Rawlings, Donnellan and Goodman (2003): Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons (Reptilia: Morelia spilota)
> Cheers
> Stefano



Stefano,

Can you tell me where I can find a copy of that paper? I've been looking but no-one seems to know in which journal it is published. I even tried for several weeks to contact Steve Donellan but he never answered the phone.



McBredli said:


> _Intergrade - zoology - to be transformed from one form to another through a series of stages or forms that involve partial transitions_



McBredli - please quote the source.



Hix


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## junglemad (Feb 19, 2006)

can someone post a pic of a sydney carpet please? the ones i have seen have been a darkish two-toned brown but that was years ago. i only see spilota spilota around here lately


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## MrBredli (Feb 19, 2006)

Hix, source is the dictionary function in Microsoft Outlook


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## GetCoiled (Feb 19, 2006)

I have only the abstract on that work, I suppose Toxinologist got it as he posted on this forum as soon as it was talked to a Congress.
I reckon a lot of people would be happy to know more about it.
Cheers 
Stefano


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## Hickson (Feb 19, 2006)

Thanks Stefano.

McBredli: I didn't even know Outlook had a dictionary function. :shock:

Junglemad: I think you'll find the official consensus is that Sydney only has Diamond Pythons. However, Diamond hatchlings look a lot like normal carpets. Anything small that looks like a little Diamond Python is usually a Broadheaded Snake.



Hix


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## junglemad (Feb 19, 2006)

that's what i thought hix...sydney carpet is a new one on me


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## MrBredli (Feb 19, 2006)

Sure does, just type in the word, then right click on it and select "Look Up" (i think).


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## peterescue (Feb 19, 2006)

junglemad said:


> that's what i thought hix...sydney carpet is a new one on me


we have picked up numerpous mcdowelli in Sydney over the years. Usually scattered individuals and near human habitation. These are always viewed as anomolies and escaped or dumped pets.


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 19, 2006)

Jungle, from reading recently I think that "Sydney Carpet" is the new namer for "Diamond Python" as they are all about to be Morelia Spilota.


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## Dicco (Feb 19, 2006)

Sorry for the confusion, I used the name Sydney Carpet for the Diamond Carpets you get around Sydney so people see them all as different Carpets, not just as Diamonds and Carpets, as they are all just different Carpet Python forms.


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## ad (Feb 19, 2006)

> Sydney Carpet for the Diamond Carpets


Lol - Dont ya hate it when people use the incorrect term for a snake - it happens a bit with intergrades too!
Only having a dig Dicco - I agree with you on the subject but couldnt pass on that one. lol
Cheers
Ad


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## flavirufus (Feb 19, 2006)

> Taylor, Rawlings, Donnellan and Goodman (2003): Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons (Reptilia: Morelia spilota)



This paper was to be published in the Journal Molecular Ecolgy, but I don't think its made it into print yet. I have a draft version of the full paper, but would need permission to distribute it. I think Duncan Taylor's just finished his PhD thesis on the topic, so there should be more info available soon.

Matt
http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/


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## zen (Feb 20, 2006)

WOW :!: How quickly things are changing in the taxonomic organization of the _Morelia spilota_ complex.  

All of these changes to the Australian pythons in general and specifically the "Carpet Pythons" in the last few years are hard to keep up with. :? 

I'm sure learning alot from you guys in this thread. Thanks everyone  
It seems I'm out of date in this area.

So the revised * Morelia spilota complex * from what I've picked up in this thread should read something more like this:-

Two new seperate species: 

The Centralian Python - Morelia bredli 
The South-Western Python - Morelia imbricata 


With the rest of the "Carpet Pythons" becoming one singular species _Morelia spilota_.
This species will then be divided into several distinct *forms* or geographical types, albiet with blurry intergrade edges. :shock: 

These forms of _Morelia spilota_ would be much like the recognised forms of say...
the Blotched Blue-tongue - i.e Highland & Lowland.

So the _Morelia spilota_ complex will have half a dozen or so geographical forms:-

If the various geographical forms are going to be made into one species and phenotype (or colour & pattern) is valid, then in order to avoid a *Carpet Soup* like what is happening in the U.S.A, the various forms must be identified & preserved :!: 

:idea: Let's go through them with typical representative pics of each form. 
Help me out here guys with pics of locality true, preferably wild specimens.


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## zen (Feb 20, 2006)

I'll start the ball rolling with some Diamond Python pics.

1. The *Diamond Python* ( I think this name will stick, as it was the first "Carpet Python" to be described and is not as misleading as the term "Sydney Carpet", as their range stretches from extreme NE Victoria to approximately Taree (Manning River).
It's also a great name 8) 

By the way, as previously stated there are no other _Morelia spilota_ forms in the Sydney region other than Diamond Pythons (apart from escapees). 


This Diamond Python is from the Blue Mountains near Sydney.


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## GetCoiled (Feb 20, 2006)

Yes!, this doesn't mean in fact we can't keep referring to different forms by their regional colloquial names (jungles, diamonds, brissies, coastals or whatever ...). So, if it would be phylogenetically true, we could think that every kind of Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds (and so on) you met there is “a locality form” of only one species understandable along a uninterrupted continuum which links the different localities each other. According to me this view is NOT so different from my “purist” angle, let me explain what I mean. Taxonomically speaking is fairly impossible to class adequately ALL the naturally and locally occurring spilota variations; so what difference does it make if we have a regional colloquial names instead of a latin one? Starting from the point of view that we’ll never be able to translate completely ALL the locality carpet forms into taxonomically recognized taxa is it so important to side that topic? 
Cheers
Stefano


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## flavirufus (Feb 20, 2006)

We all need to keep in mind that the concept of species is a construction of human minds, not neccessarily a neatly defined biological reality. In fact, there are a number of different concepts of what constitutes a species and not everyone agrees on a single concept. It becomes even more blurry when dealing with the concept of sub-species, which are very poorly defined.

The recent taxonomic work will not change the different populations of carpets we recognise , but may change the way we view the relationships between them. As it stands, all but bredli are recognised as the same species anyway and this new work simply suggests that imbricata be elevated to full species status. I don't really see a problem in continuing to use the various sub-specific names as a means of distinguishing between populations, given that the names serve a purpose (though not being strongly defined in a biological sense).

Dicco, I'd be interested in the source of your information that indicates that Chondropython will be revived and carinata will be classed as Chondropython as well. The DNA analysis I refer to above indicates that GTPs are pretty much just green carpets (molecularly speaking  )

Matt
http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/


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## NCHERPS (Feb 20, 2006)

flavirufus said:


> Dicco, I'd be interested in the source of your information that indicates that Chondropython will be revived and carinata will be classed as Chondropython as well. The DNA analysis I refer to above indicates that GTPs are pretty much just green carpets (molecularly speaking  )
> 
> Matt
> http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/



Matt,

John Weigel told me the same thing last year, from memory I believe it was work that Kluge was undertaking.

Neil


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## bigguy (Feb 20, 2006)

Guys, DNA may have shown that the Eastern Carpets(spilota) are in fact the same species, but there is still a variation of the DNA between each reconised colour form. This is what a sub species is, a variation of a true species. If each group was found to have different DNA they would be seperate species, like Centralians and South Westerns, however they dont. They are only what we deem sub species. For this reason the old scientific names for each group would still be valid.


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## webby (Feb 20, 2006)

we like to think.... and this is the way we have always looked at it....

hybrid.... two different subspecies breed in captivity
intergrade... two different subspecies breeding in the wild to creat another subspecies altogether over generations...

i belive there are many intergrades all over the country where boundries overlapp but the most common/well known are the intergrades of northern NSW/southern QLD (diamond/brisbane carpets)

i think they are great, as a lover of diamonds, it is hard to keep them up in the hotter central QLD, so something similar and still very nice (intergrades) are a little more hardy and easier to keep ...


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## bigguy (Feb 20, 2006)

Webby, read my previous posts. Do you think these seperate sub species just appeared at different locallities at the same time over Eastern Australia, and then started breeding with each other where their boundries met to form intergrades. Come on now!

DNA has shown they are the same species which migrated around Eastern Australia. The intergades between the boundries are the missing links as one form altered its colour to suit a new enviroment and form a new sub species.


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## zen (Feb 20, 2006)

So if it's to be _Morelia spilota_ what happens to the sub-specific latin names like _cheynei_ and mcdowelli :?: 

Would they become redundant. :? 

If this were to become accepted, as seems probable, then reference books would read something like this I suppose:-

*Carpet Pythons - Morelia spilota complex* contains the following geographic forms -
1. Diamond 
2. Top End (including PNG & Irian Jayan colour variants)
3. Eastern/Coastal 
4. Jungle 
5. Murray/Darling or Inland


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## zen (Feb 20, 2006)

Bigguy wrote:-


> ...there is still a variation of the DNA between each reconised colour form. This is what a sub species is, a variation of a true species.



If this is the case, where do we draw the line? :? 
Seems to me that these lines are arbitrarily & somewhat artifically drawn. 

They are essentially human constructs!

In nature, there exists an infinite and continuous variation throughout the _Morelia spilota_ complex, as is the case with many other species. 

Humans are just trying to create some order in the apparent chaos of nature in order to better understand a species. 
To do this we need to be able to identify a species in order to collate data on that particular species. We look for patterns to establish rules and facts about the world around us. 
It's human nature!


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## bigguy (Feb 20, 2006)

Zen, the same can be said with any sub species of any animal in the world. Where do you draw the line. Should every sub species in the world be scrapped if DNA shows they are indeed the same species, even though they are entirely different to each other.

As for your other comments, the Eastern Carpets were always considered to be the same form, thats why they were Morelia spilota ?. They were simply broken into sub species about 10 or so years ago. DNA has confirmed that this was the case afterall. The only form that needs changing is the South Western Carpets that was for years mistakenly added with the Morelia spilota complex. The rest just keep their origional latin names.


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## Sdaji (Feb 20, 2006)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## olivehydra (Feb 20, 2006)

How does one use DNA to differentiate sub species?


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## bigguy (Feb 20, 2006)

Olivehyra, each of the sub species, and the intergrades have slight variations in their DNA to each other. 

It is the same with Green Pythons. The Northern Irian form appears as a different species to the southern GTP's. However, the southern forms including the Aussie one, are all the same species,but DNA has shown there are at least 4 different sub species due to small variations


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## olivehydra (Feb 20, 2006)

bigguy said:


> Olivehyra, each of the sub species, and the intergrades have slight variations in their DNA to each other.
> 
> It is the same with Green Pythons. The Northern Irian form appears as a different species to the southern GTP's. However, the southern forms including the Aussie one, are all the same species,but DNA has shown there are at least 4 different sub species due to small variations



I suppose that would make it very difficult and expensive for aussie zoos to comply with ZooTAG suggestions of "Aussie only" breeding programs?


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## zen (Feb 20, 2006)

Bigguy wrote:-


> the old scientific names for each group would still be valid.


So you reckon that the sub-species will be retained under the umbrella of _Morelia spilota_. 
If that's the case then this new DNA research will leave _Morelia spilota_ more or less as it is now, with the exception of _imbricata_ being seperated & raised to species status. i.e _Morelia imbricata_
That makes more sense to me.  
I can understand _imbricata_ and _bredli_ being distinct due to the geographic isolation.

Bigguy wrote:-


> ...each of the sub species, and the intergrades have slight variations in their DNA to each other.



This is interesting! So Intergrades are genetically distinct, however slight that may be. 


Sdaji, what are you laughing at ? :? 
Confucious say "confusion is growth" :wink: :lol:


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