# Rainforest/hinterland diamonds.



## Hamalicious (Apr 6, 2013)

So i have noticed a lot of people lately trying to sell intergrades as rainforest diamonds, hinterland diamonds or hinterland carpets. 

Is this a new trend people are using to try and flog intergrades or is this an old trick i haven't noticed until now? 

An intergrade is an intergrade, i don't see why people are trying to give them a fancy name.


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## RedFox (Apr 6, 2013)

"Rainforest diamonds" have been around for a long time but they seem to be becoming more common whereas the word "Intergrade" is becoming less common . Defitely a sale phrase. It sounds better then saying intergrade and makes it sound like a pure diamond, albeit one that lives in a *rainforest* in NSW . Lol. Hmmm didn't realise there was so much rainforest in NSW. 

The word intergrade has a bad connotation. A lot of people think that intergrades are the same as hybrids, but then how can you blame them when coastal x diamonds hybrids were labelled as intergrades.


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## Norm (Apr 6, 2013)

I agree its confusing for buyers, especially newbies. I brought this up a while ago, about the name intergrade being not a great name because people think they're hybrids. I tried suggesting another name but its difficult to come up with one that works. Personally I like the name "northern diamond". But we have to remember in the end they are intergrades and not some newly discovered carpet.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Apr 6, 2013)

Intergrade means the cross breeding has happened naturally.
Cross breed is the man made version of an intergrade.

Intergrade is now being used to disguise cross bred animals.
Rainforest is the Diamond intergrade of a cross breed


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## Hamalicious (Apr 6, 2013)

I just think that they are not a species and therefore, should not have their own name. They are a cross between two different species, so we should just call them diamond x coastals. People know that it is a naturally occurring, it's not a bad thing.


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## Vixen (Apr 6, 2013)

It's hard when breeders are flogging off captive bred Diamonds x Coastals as Intergrades though - they shouldn't be using the term at all.

I really don't have a problem with the term Northern Rainforest Diamond, as labelling something as Intergrade does get a negative view as most people still think they are captive bred crosses when they're NOT.


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## borntobnude (Apr 6, 2013)

Have a look at the pics i have put on the "gosford locale "thread and its easy to see why we are confussed ,


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## junglepython2 (Apr 6, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> I just think that they are not a species and therefore, should not have their own name. They are a cross between two different species, so we should just call them diamond x coastals. People know that it is a naturally occurring, it's not a bad thing.



They aren't a cross they are just as pure as a diamond or coastal. Maybe people should go back to the old locale names.


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## Hamalicious (Apr 6, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> They aren't a cross they are just as pure as a diamond or coastal. Maybe people should go back to the old locale names.



How are they not a cross? and how are they as pure as a coastal or a diamond, they are literally a cross between those two species.


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## junglepython2 (Apr 6, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> How are they not a cross? and how are they as pure as a coastal or a diamond, they are literally a cross between those two species.



They are not a cross at all. There parents are not a diamond and a coastal but instead two pure intergrades. There is a population of carpets pretty much right down the east coast. Intergrades just happen to lie in an area where so called "coastals" start to turn into so called "diamonds". These are just labels us humans have given to two points of the population which is pretty much a continuum. Each point or locale is just as pure as any other and no crossing is occurring just a gradual change to suit the differing habitats and temperatures.


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## RedFox (Apr 6, 2013)

Diamonds and coastals don't live in the intergrade zone. If they were just cross breeds surely there would be a mix of diamonds, coastals and intergrades living in that area. 

Morelia spilota are genetically the same hence why they appear as such on most states species lists. So from what I have read the more accepted theory is that diamond gradually evolve into coastals as you go further north. This change isn't clear cut hense why you have intergrades who display both diamond and coastal features. 

They are pure animals but because they don't fit into our cookie cutter idea of species they are undesirable.


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## Hamalicious (Apr 6, 2013)

So a new species has been created and inhabited an area?


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## junglepython2 (Apr 6, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> So a new species has been created and inhabited an area?



Not a new species, just where one form changes into another. Technically diamonds and coastals are the same species anyway, Morelia spilota. The idea of species is very ridged, nature doesn't fit into the neat little boxes we make up to help us make sense of it all.


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## RedFox (Apr 6, 2013)

Jungle python is right. We have imposed these subspecies title. Since genetically Morelia spilota are indistinguishable technically it would be more correct calling them all carpet pythons from such and such locality. But then how confusing would that be. 

Recently I read an article about Cape York carpets possibly being natural intergrades between coastals, jungles and Darwins.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 7, 2013)

There are some rather uneducated posts on this thread. Firstly, there is rainforest all the way down the coast of NSW, secondly, they are not crosses they are localitys, and thirdly, the breeder selling said snakes is very respected and certainly doesn't need a sales pitch to sell animals.


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## Cougar2007 (Apr 7, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> They are not a cross at all. There parents are not a diamond and a coastal but instead two pure intergrades. There is a population of carpets pretty much right down the east coast. Intergrades just happen to lie in an area where so called "coastals" start to turn into so called "diamonds". These are just labels us humans have given to two points of the population which is pretty much a continuum. Each point or locale is just as pure as any other and no crossing is occurring just a gradual change to suit the differing habitats and temperatures.



So based on the above I can cross my coastal and diamond, it is then a het for pure rainforest diamond intergrades? Man I could charge thousands for those hatchies. What a marketing spin that one could be in a pet shop.

*jokes* 

On a serious note though, I was lead to believe it was a documented fact the an "intergrade" was started by a coastal and diamond breeding together. So the fact that the young now breed to give "pure intergrades" is a moot point. I'm not being smart, just wondering why the aren't a cross when thy started as a cross.


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## Norm (Apr 7, 2013)

If there's rainforest all the way down the NSW coast, and I'm not debating this, how can a Rainforest Diamond be a locality? Just putting it out there


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## -Peter (Apr 7, 2013)

The Worley's gave nice names to their locality Morelia spilota ssps. Whether it was a cynical attempt to charge more or an attempt to create a difinitive way of establishing genuine localities is up to you to decide. I like to think the best of people in the long run.


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## dangles (Apr 7, 2013)

Cougar2007 said:


> So based on the above I can cross my coastal and diamond, it is then a het for pure rainforest diamond intergrades? Man I could charge thousands for those hatchies. What a marketing spin that one could be in a pet shop.
> 
> *jokes*
> 
> On a serious note though, I was lead to believe it was a documented fact the an "intergrade" was started by a coastal and diamond breeding together. So the fact that the young now breed to give "pure intergrades" is a moot point. I'm not being smart, just wondering why the aren't a cross when thy started as a cross.



Considering snakes were around before us, hardly could be documented. There was a dna study done on morelia that was posted on this site. Results were 3 or 4 diff dna strains from all morelia. Carinata and viridis being 2 of the different strains

If we just called all east coast pythons morelia spilota spilota or mcdowelli would that be better???


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## Ramsayi (Apr 7, 2013)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/faq-intergrade-54862/


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## junglepython2 (Apr 7, 2013)

Cougar2007 said:


> So based on the above I can cross my coastal and diamond, it is then a het for pure rainforest diamond intergrades? Man I could charge thousands for those hatchies. What a marketing spin that one could be in a pet shop.
> 
> *jokes*
> 
> On a serious note though, I was lead to believe it was a documented fact the an "intergrade" was started by a coastal and diamond breeding together. So the fact that the young now breed to give "pure intergrades" is a moot point. I'm not being smart, just wondering why the aren't a cross when thy started as a cross.



:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:


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## thomasssss (Apr 7, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/faq-intergrade-54862/


i was just about to post that  some people in this thread (including the poster ) should have a good read of this then re think what they believe to be an intergrade , as it says in the link , no where does one subspecies ( i.e. jungles ,coastal ,diamonds etc ) just magically turn into the next, there is always a subtle change


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## dangles (Apr 7, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> i was just about to post that  some people in this thread (including the poster ) should have a good read of this then re think what they believe to be an intergrade , as it says in the link , no where does one subspecies ( i.e. jungles ,coastal ,diamonds etc ) just magically turn into the next, there is always a subtle change


Agreed

Different geographical and environmental conditions produce different appearances of the same species. Look at people


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## Bart70 (Apr 7, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> There are some rather uneducated posts on this thread. Firstly, there is rainforest all the way down the coast of NSW, secondly, they are not crosses they are localitys, and thirdly, the breeder selling said snakes is very respected and certainly doesn't need a sales pitch to sell animals.



Agreed - A locale that has developed naturally over thousands of years, in the biological and ecological world, is not called a 'cross bred'. These intergrades are a naturally occurring locale in this area in the wild - No Coastals and Diamonds running around the bush producing them.

I recall a series of posts many years ago on another forum where a group of breeders who were dedicated to breeding this particular locale discussed the bad name that 'intergrade' was getting because of people who believed that 'intergrade = cross bred". From what I have read about the thread, that was the birth of the North Rainforest Diamond name. They are still often referred to as Port Mac Pythons.

Whatever you call them - they are a naturally occurring locale as many who live in the area will attest to. Their pattern does vary within the locale from what I have seen, but they are quite distinctive from a traditional Diamond, or a Coastal.

I do agree there are breeders who take a little poetic licence with them and am sure there are breeders who cross the two deliberately and try to pass them off as the locale. When I bought mine I viewed both parents so I knew what it was.

There is some lovely rainforest down the coast (not as much as there once was sadly). In fact I spoke with a Ranger recently who got tagged recently by a large Rainforest Diamond/Port Mac Diamond/Intergrade in our local Sea Acres Rainforest here in Port Macquarie - a fine example of a preserved rainforest that visitors can walk through on a large boardwalk.


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## Bart70 (Apr 7, 2013)

-Peter said:


> The Worley's gave nice names to their locality Morelia spilota ssps. Whether it was a cynical attempt to charge more or an attempt to create a difinitive way of establishing genuine localities is up to you to decide. I like to think the best of people in the long run.



I have seen reference to the name being discussed on the net quite some time ago - not sure how long the Worleys have been breeding them but from what I have read it was not started by them. 

Happy to be proven wrong though


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## Bart70 (Apr 7, 2013)

RedFox said:


> Jungle python is right. We have imposed these subspecies title. Since genetically Morelia spilota are indistinguishable technically it would be more correct calling them all carpet pythons from such and such locality. But then how confusing would that be.
> 
> Recently I read an article about Cape York carpets possibly being natural intergrades between coastals, jungles and Darwins.



Oh No! Don't tell me my new Cape York Hatchy is a cross bred too??......LOL :lol:

With my Rainforest, I now have 2 cross bred snakes! :lol:


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## Norm (Apr 7, 2013)

The confusion among people in regards to intergrades isn't helped when in "The Complete Carpet Python" the authors describe a crossed snake as being an intergrade. Page 238, describes an "88% diamond 12% jungle carpet intergrade". Yet they also explain quite well exactly what an intergrade is. Leaves me scratching my head.


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## -Peter (Apr 7, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> I have seen reference to the name being discussed on the net quite some time ago - not sure how long the Worleys have been breeding them but from what I have read it was not started by them.
> 
> Happy to be proven wrong though



Are you referringf to Northern Rainforst Diamond, if so you are talking about how many years ago, would need to be at least four or five.


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## RedFox (Apr 7, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> Oh No! Don't tell me my new Cape York Hatchy is a cross bred too??......LOL :lol:
> 
> With my Rainforest, I now have 2 cross bred snakes! :lol:



No you would have two locale specific animals. Lol Intergrades aren't cross breeds.


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## Bart70 (Apr 7, 2013)

-Peter said:


> Are you referringf to Northern Rainforst Diamond, if so you are talking about how many years ago, would need to be at least four or five.



From memory the conversations I saw were 2006 and were between a small number of breeders who were Port Mac python enthusiasts.


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## Bart70 (Apr 7, 2013)

RedFox said:


> No you would have two locale specific animals. Lol Intergrades aren't cross breeds.



Haha....Yes - I did make that comment very 'tongue in cheek'....LOL


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## -Peter (Apr 7, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> From memory the conversations I saw were 2006 and were between a small number of breeders who were Port Mac python enthusiasts.




That would explain it.


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## Reptilia (Apr 9, 2013)

within a small range of northern NSW you can get...

diamond x diamond
coastal x coastal
integrade x integrade
diamond x integrade
diamond x coastal
integrade x coastal
or any percentage combination of all 3...

someone called it the 'morelia mess' a few years back.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 9, 2013)

I used to live on a headland in the bush at Urunga, just up from Nambucca Heads, and even there you get some very interesting pythons that you can't quite put your finger on the ID of.


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## Bart70 (Apr 9, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> I used to live on a headland in the bush at Urunga, just up from Nambucca Heads, and even there you get some very interesting pythons that you can't quite put your finger on the ID of.



If they were not obvious Diamond, or obvious Coastal, and had Morelia appearance, there is a great chance they are locally occurring intergrades or locales. 

I don't believe that Coastals or Diamonds are a common find in heart of the intergrade zone from what field herpers around here have told me. I have not seen any either. Everything I see around here is clearly intergrade, or the Port Macquarie locale.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 9, 2013)

Theoretically, Urunga is out of the intergrade zone and in straight coastal territory


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## Jacknife (Apr 9, 2013)

This argument is kinda like saying "If I take half a pear and half an apple, and glue them together; I have a nashi right?"
The nashi is a fruit in it's own right.


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## Shotta (Apr 9, 2013)

^ lol i thought nashi was the type of pear or something ,
wouldn't a pear cross apple be a peple? or peapple


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 9, 2013)

A nashi is a pear, an intergrade is an intergrade


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## Bart70 (Apr 9, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Theoretically, Urunga is out of the intergrade zone and in straight coastal territory



Don't know what the Intergrades look like that far north (...and was always of the belief that the intergrade zone extended to Coffs Harbour, maybe not). The ones I have seen wild around Port Macquarie are quite distinctive from a Coastal or a Diamond - you would not have a lot of trouble identifying them.


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## Justdragons (Apr 9, 2013)

surley over time this is how most local specific morelia came about until their numbers were so large that the were documented and labeled?


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## Timmy-Morelia (Apr 10, 2013)

this diamond plus this diamond created this diamond or are they diamond at all feel free to debate over this


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## Norm (Apr 10, 2013)

IMO the parents are a classic example of the confusion around diamonds and intergrades. You post those pics in either a diamond or intergrade thread and they would fit. The offspring however I think would be labelled an intergrade or maybe even a cross. I'm not doubting what they are just pointing out what I think most people who get involved in these threads would label them.
Nice snakes by the way, especially the young one.


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## Timmy-Morelia (Apr 10, 2013)

the first pic is from the worleys line the second is a pure diamond which would make the young one a??????????


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## Norm (Apr 10, 2013)

More knowledgable people correct me if I'm wrong but I would say, diamond x intergrade in its simplest non fancy name form.


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## borntobnude (Apr 10, 2013)

the second snake would fit in one of those pictures to make your eyes go funny .

It is beautiful


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## Timmy-Morelia (Apr 10, 2013)

the word intergrade doesnt sound as good as rainforest or northern diamond


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## Norm (Apr 10, 2013)

Exactly, call them whatever you like. There beautiful snakes and I'd be more than happy if I had them in my collection regardless of what they are. I especially like the young one, would go very well with one of my "northern" diamonds.


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## thomasssss (Apr 10, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> Don't know what the Intergrades look like that far north (...and was always of the belief that the intergrade zone extended to Coffs Harbour, maybe not). The ones I have seen wild around Port Macquarie are quite distinctive from a Coastal or a Diamond - you would not have a lot of trouble identifying them.


i live just past coffs at a place called mullaway , have most of my life and i find animals that are most deffinetly not what you would call straight up coastals , they definitely have an intergrade appearance like this one for instance , caught it under my verandah one late one night in mullaway approximately 30 mins NORTH of coffs (oh and the pics dont show it well but the flecks where a yellowy green colour )

however travel a few km inland i have never found anything even close to an intergrade , they all look like standard coastals


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## Bart70 (Apr 10, 2013)

Timmy-Morelia said:


> the word intergrade doesnt sound as good as rainforest or northern diamond



I personally prefer Port Macquarie python.......gives it a locale with some definition of where they are found. Northern Diamond or Rainforest Diamond are nice names, but I think giving them a locale based named gives them a little more credence.

I have a couple of pics of a really nice wild Port Mac Python that was residing in the back yard of a work colleague who abutts natural bushland reserve not far from my house. They are not great pics.....but you can see how nice a specimen it is and how it differs from Coastals and Diamonds. Will try to post them up


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## Bart70 (Apr 10, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> I personally prefer Port Macquarie python.......gives it a locale with some definition of where they are found. Northern Diamond or Rainforest Diamond are nice names, but I think giving them a locale based named gives them a little more credence.
> 
> I have a couple of pics of a really nice wild Port Mac Python that was residing in the back yard of a work colleague who abutts natural bushland reserve not far from my house. They are not great pics.....but you can see how nice a specimen it is and how it differs from Coastals and Diamonds. Will try to post them up



Ok...Here are the pics. Got them loaded quicker than I thought. Sorry for the poor quality, the photographer was not a snake enthusiast!

This fellow hung around the back corner of a work colleagues yard in Port Macquarie - his property adjoins a large'ish bushland reserve. It was there for a day or two before moving on. He only found it because he chased a stray cat along his rear fenceline - the cat took off then 'froze' instantly in one location. He wandered over and found the python!

I questioned him about the very bright green colours - they were not the result of a flash, the snake was actually quite bright in green/lime/yellow. I have seen similar pics of specimens from the area also. From what I have seen of them, they are quite different to high grade yellow Diamonds - they are very 'green' by comparison, and sort of lack the 'black specking' between the yellow/green (for want of a better term....don't know the technically correct one!).

When I look at these, I don't see any confusion with Diamond or Coastal, although some further north and south may not be as brightly coloured or marked.


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## Norm (Apr 10, 2013)

Wow, Bart, very green. Healthy too!


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## Bart70 (Apr 10, 2013)

Norm said:


> Wow, Bart, very green. Healthy too!



They are a lovely looking thing in the wild Norm. He has probably been kept plump on stray cats and rats that frequent come of our reserves around town!

I have a hatchy that was bred by a local breeder who has identical markings....even got the bright lines behind the head. He is still colouring up but he is going to be beautiful in 12 months time. Lovely placid nature also. Can't wait for him to get a bit bigger and colour up properly


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## Skeptic (Apr 11, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> Ok...Here are the pics. Got them loaded quicker than I thought. Sorry for the poor quality, the photographer was not a snake enthusiast!
> 
> This fellow hung around the back corner of a work colleagues yard in Port Macquarie - his property adjoins a large'ish bushland reserve. It was there for a day or two before moving on. He only found it because he chased a stray cat along his rear fenceline - the cat took off then 'froze' instantly in one location. He wandered over and found the python!
> 
> ...



Very nice looking snake  I have found a few around Port that lean a lot more towards the diamond side though.


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## mungus (Apr 11, 2013)

i'll be advertising my intergrades from now on as " Bar Beach " Locale :lol:


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