# Oenpellis



## FAY (May 10, 2013)

A couple more of these magnificient animals have been found.
Gavin Bedford should be very happy.


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## treeofgreen (May 10, 2013)

Links etc?


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

Not sure if I am allowed to put up links.


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## Skelhorn (May 10, 2013)

Come on Fay, your a Moderator, We'll bend the rules for you just this once


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## Cold-B-Hearts (May 10, 2013)

Yay hopefully one day they will be as available roughies now are.


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

Not worried this end, not sure if they want me to. It is a member on here Gordo, but just cannot remember his username. Gordo from Darwin.


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## Rob (May 10, 2013)

FAY said:


> Not worried this end, not sure if they want me to. It is a member on here Gordo, but just cannot remember his username. Gordo from Darwin.



http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/member/waruikazi-1380/


Last Activity: 21-Nov-12 09:04 AM


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## Serpent_Gazeux (May 10, 2013)

I wish I had a spare 15K.


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

That is him Rob...thanks 
They found a girl....a while ago, they Just found a big girl..and the other night found a young male and another one (sex unknown)


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## Umbral (May 10, 2013)

I'm not that much of a fan of them yet but it will be good for the hobby and they may grow on me. All the best to those involved.


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## Barrett (May 10, 2013)

Anyone feel like lending me a measly 15k  lol. Can't wait for the year that these beauties become available to the rest of us.


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## Renenet (May 10, 2013)

Wonderful news about the male!


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

Last one is a girl. Young lad is going to be busy LOL


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

With permission from Gordo, this is the young male they found.


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## SteveNT (May 10, 2013)

The permit is for 4. Does that mean one goes back?


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

Isn't that only 4? 3F 1M


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## Justdragons (May 10, 2013)

so in the next 10 years we can all have one??


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## saintanger (May 10, 2013)

cool, i love oenpellis pythons, they remind me of over grown childrens pythons. i hope he breeds them soon, but i will wait about 10 years till the price is more affordable unless i win lotto.


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## Jeffa (May 10, 2013)

Brilliant news Fay! And please tell Gordo to come back to the forums as he is sorely missed!


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## solar 17 (May 10, 2013)

l for one think its great news and cant help but think before the critics jump in, we might have Tasmanian Tigers if someone had have started a breeding program and to a lesser but far more up to date thinking what about Womas $2500.00 each approx. 12 years ago and "roughly" $400.00 each now for hatchies now but "unusual" in the wild especially in QLD. and will become more so with the Coal Seam Gas and by that l mean more water available to their predators so more scavengingl but thanks to modern day keepers they will always be around .....just saying solar 17 (Baden)


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## jacorin (May 10, 2013)

they need spare steve lolol


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## Wally (May 10, 2013)

Gordo must be stoked given his fruitless attempts to find this mysterious critter in the past.


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## andynic07 (May 10, 2013)

Does anyone know what the temperament is like of these snakes in general?


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## SteveNT (May 10, 2013)

Wally76 said:


> Gordo must be stoked given his fruitless attempts to find this mysterious critter in the past.



Yea I just sent him congrats.

Re my earlier comment, Gavin has had 2 for some time now and Faye's post suggests he has recently acquired another 3 = 5. I believe the Section 19 permit is for 4. I have no problem with Gavin or this project but I am far from convinced that the numbers have fallen and there is an urgent need for a captive breeding program to "save the species" anyway. Countrymen dont seem to think so. 

My issue is that very often whitefellas make agreements with blackfellas and then exceed or break the contract. I believe Gavin is honorable but I am always a tad wary with these things given what I have witnessed in the past.


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

He got the first one...and then a large female....then these two...to my knowledge.
I am sure once they get them vet checked to make sure they are very healthy, if not they can release them and replace...JMO though lol


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## congo_python (May 10, 2013)

Great news.


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## saximus (May 10, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Does anyone know what the temperament is like of these snakes in general?



They're supposed to be pussy cats from what I've read. Basically a Scrubby sized Children's which would make them very enticing for the pet trade in the future. 

Gordo seems stoked on Facebook. Poor bloke has been searching for years. Good on him and Gavin


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## Owzi (May 10, 2013)

The NT Government gave Gavin permission to collect 8 pythons for this captive breeding program.
I'm very happy to hear a male has been found!


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## SteveNT (May 10, 2013)

FAY said:


> He got the first one...and then a large female....then these two...to my knowledge.
> I am sure once they get them vet checked to make sure they are very healthy, if not they can release them and replace...JMO though lol



My understanding is that it is risky releasing a snake that has been in captivity back into the wild. It may have come into contact with a disease and spread it in the field. I doubt the contract has a swap if you change your mind clause lol.


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## FAY (May 10, 2013)

haha fair enough
Just being allowed to collect four seems a bit silly IMO
Want a bigger gene pool ESP when it is a once and only capture


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## abnrmal91 (May 10, 2013)

Really good news for the Gordo. They are amazing pythons, cant wait to own one eventually


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## SteveNT (May 10, 2013)

Owzi said:


> The NT Government gave Gavin permission to collect 8 pythons for this captive breeding program.
> I'm very happy to hear a male has been found!



The NT Government doesn't grant the Section 19 permit. The Northern Land Council does on behalf of the Traditional Owners. 
That is because they own the land where he is collecting. He needs NT Govt permits too but without the Section 19 nothing can happen.

I'm glad they found the male too. And a very handsome bloke he is.


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## bohdi13 (May 10, 2013)

man they are beautiful, it is awesome to know that more have been found. i did a report at school as an endangered species report, was awesome to know more about oenpellis. thanks for that fay, good luck if they happen to see this:lol:


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## SteveNT (May 10, 2013)

FAY said:


> haha fair enough
> Just being allowed to collect four seems a bit silly IMO
> Want a bigger gene pool ESP when it is a once and only capture



The small number reflects the justification for removing them from the wild. That is that they are presumed to be declining like many animals in Kakadu (and therefor in Arnhem Land also). That is possibly true in Kakadu but let's not go into that here. He is not collecting in Kakadu. 

TOs say they mostly eat fruit bats and there is no suggestion of any population stress with them. 

I believe that they have a far greater distribution through Arnhem Land than is currently recognised and I have communicated this to Gavin in person.


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## Owzi (May 10, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> The NT Government doesn't grant the Section 19 permit. The Northern Land Council does on behalf of the Traditional Owners.
> That is because they own the land where he is collecting. He needs NT Govt permits too but without the Section 19 nothing can happen.
> 
> I'm glad they found the male too. And a very handsome bloke he is.



Ok, I was led to believe it was all cleared to collect 8 specimens from all authorities.
There was a good little article in Outback magazine April/May issue- Outback :: RM Williams


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## Reptallica (May 10, 2013)

That is awesome news.


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## deebo (May 10, 2013)

stevent - is there any reason you think they have a greater distribution than is currently recognised? genuinely interested....


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## Channaz (May 10, 2013)

Exciting news! 

I am wondering about the likely age of the young male... photos can be deceiving. Is he ready to go? And also the most recently caught female?


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## waruikazi (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for posting that pic Fay, i've been flat out since early last week and have hardly had a chance to sit down at the comp. Here's a pic of the second animal from last week. It's late i'll be back in the morning to answer questions.

View attachment 289645


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## saintanger (May 10, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> Thanks for posting that pic Fay, i've been flat out since early last week and have hardly had a chance to sit down at the comp. Here's a pic of the second animal from last week. It's late i'll be back in the morning to answer questions.
> 
> View attachment 289645



very nice python, very stunning. good on you for finding them.


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## Bushman (May 11, 2013)

Thanks Gordo. Welcome back and CONGRATULATIONS on your great finds. 8)
You and Gavin must be over the moon!


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## bohdi13 (May 11, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> Thanks for posting that pic Fay, i've been flat out since early last week and have hardly had a chance to sit down at the comp. Here's a pic of the second animal from last week. It's late i'll be back in the morning to answer questions.
> 
> View attachment 289645



oenpelli's are like prehistoric Antaresie sp. makes me wonder if they actually belong to the Morelia genus, No i am not saying they belong to Antaresia but they don't resemble any other Morelia species.

by the way, she/he is awesome! congrats!


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## SteveNT (May 11, 2013)

Welcome back


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## Trimeresurus (May 11, 2013)

bohdi13 said:


> oenpelli's are like prehistoric Antaresie sp. makes me wonder if they actually belong to the Morelia genus, No i am not saying they belong to Antaresia but they don't resemble any other Morelia species.
> 
> by the way, she/he is awesome! congrats!



Oenpelli's have very Morelia like heads and bodys. If anything scrubbies least resemble other morelia. 

Looking forward to these being around in captivity.


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

*Oops*

Well that's a little embarrassing. I upped the wrong picture last night, i'm surprised no one jumped on me about it!

Thankyou for making this thread Fay. 


Here's a few pictures of the big female we found on the second night plus the young male. I'll post answers to questions after this post.

Doesn't really show how big she is, over 3m but probably under 4. Perfect condition, great girth and muscle tone, hardly any scars and maybe one or two skin worms.













The boy is about 140cm and about 80g at a guess. Probably one of last years hatchies, possibly this years. 




This gives you an idea of the length/girth. They are more slender for their size even than a BTS.


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## richoman_3 (May 11, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> Thanks for posting that pic Fay, i've been flat out since early last week and have hardly had a chance to sit down at the comp. Here's a pic of the second animal from last week. It's late i'll be back in the morning to answer questions.
> 
> View attachment 289645




stunning oenpelli!, damn i see why they call them childrens pythons!


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> The permit is for 4. Does that mean one goes back?



I won't comment on contract and permit specifics. But at this stage, no none will be going back and the quota for the permit is not yet full.


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

Justdragons said:


> so in the next 10 years we can all have one??



That is the plan!


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## Jeffa (May 11, 2013)

Great work Gordo and good to see you back mate.


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## damian83 (May 11, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> That is the plan!



i hope so
.........bidding war begins............


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## Lachesis (May 11, 2013)

How long is the first really big female?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> The small number reflects the justification for removing them from the wild. That is that they are presumed to be declining like many animals in Kakadu (and therefor in Arnhem Land also). That is possibly true in Kakadu but let's not go into that here. He is not collecting in Kakadu.
> 
> TOs say they mostly eat fruit bats and there is no suggestion of any population stress with them.
> 
> I believe that they have a far greater distribution through Arnhem Land than is currently recognised and I have communicated this to Gavin in person.



I'm glad you made this post Steve, these are important conversations to have and i think open forums like this are the perfect place for them. 

The drop bear population is definitely vulnerable for several reasons, i'll attach a paper outlining some of the reasons rather than typing them here. This paper also shows the known distribution of the species, which is relatively well understood by most people with a serious interest in the animal. I suspect that they may be a tiny bit more widespread than the map shows (perhaps as far South as Katherine, but not an awful lot further to the East). The reasons for collecting in the areas that we are is simply because we know the traditional owners and in the latest locations we can access the land for most of the year without a helicopter. 

You know as well as i do that TO's have a different understanding and connection to the land than we do. The assumption the folk you have spoken to that they mainly eat flying foxes, I think, is naive and shows the thinking of typical non-herpers. They've seen them eat fruit bats, so that must be the majority of their diet. I think that is incredibly unlikely. It is more likely that their diet would contain a far greater number of different species including cave bats, birds and other small to medium sized mammals. 

Researchers, such as Woinarski, have clearly shown a dramatic decline in the numbers of small mammals, including some bats, reptiles, birds and amphibians in the stone country specifically (the food source of drop bears) and across the country. This crash was occurring before the toads and has now accelerated. The extinction of some of these animals is imminent, if it hasn't already happened already. Just to be clear, some species of fruit bat are in trouble, not specifically in the stone country but damage is occurring to their populations and their is no reason why the West Arnhem populations would be immune.

We can't clearly say that drop bear numbers are declining. But is this a reason to NOT bring them into captivity? I think absolutely not! Lets say they are in huge numbers and we just can't work them out. Fantastic! Removing a few pairs will have a negligible impact on the overall population and those people who enjoy keeping reptiles will get the opportunity to do this legally. The other side of the coin is that they are on the brink of extinction and there is no captive populations and we watch them slip into void like the Christmas Island pipistrelle (and even more disturbingly like what is happening right now to Bellatorus obiri, Giant Arnhem Land Skink which was once common as mud, perfect for captivity and now essentially extinct with no captive population, even when there is a plan and a want to do this we are still not allowed to catch a few to insure and conserve the species. It makes me really angry that there are people willing to do and fund this yet the powers to be are blocking us at every turn!). Wouldn't we rather have them alive, although not in the wild, than not alive at all?

If Gavin turned around and burnt the TO's, he knows that doing so would put an end to all of the friendliness and jeopardize all and any future conservation plans. I don't believe for a second that he would do that and if he did, despite Gav being a close friend, i would withdraw my support too. 

With all this said i'm very happy you have a slightly differing opinion. This is what sparks the conversation and they are conversations that need to be had to help boost support for the growing movement for captive conservation.


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> Yea I just sent him congrats.
> 
> Re my earlier comment, Gavin has had 2 for some time now and Faye's post suggests he has recently acquired another 3 = 5. I believe the Section 19 permit is for 4. I have no problem with Gavin or this project but I am far from convinced that the numbers have fallen and there is an urgent need for a captive breeding program to "save the species" anyway. Countrymen dont seem to think so.
> 
> My issue is that very often whitefellas make agreements with blackfellas and then exceed or break the contract. I believe Gavin is honorable but I am always a tad wary with these things given what I have witnessed in the past.



Right now Gav has 4 Steve, 2 mature girls, 1 subadult girl and yearling boy.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (May 11, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> Right now Gav has 4 Steve, 3 mature girls, 1 subadult girl and yearling boy.



good to see you back


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

Lachesis said:


> How long is the first really big female?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The first female (Esther) was 2.3m on capture. Second (Ingird) was 4.2m, latest girl (Kate) hasn't been measured but looks to be over 3m and the boy (yet to be named) is about 1.4m

This is Ingrid.


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

Document wouldn't attach, here is the PDF http://lrm.nt.gov.au/__data/assets/...stainable_use_program_for_oenpelli_python.pdf


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## FAY (May 11, 2013)

Thanks for all the pics Gordo, they are unreal. How about a naming comp for the boy , it will get national coverage I am sure ??


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## benc63 (May 11, 2013)

Owen.


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## PilbaraPythons (May 11, 2013)

Fantastic news for our hobby, well done Gavin, it looks like the project is steam rolling ahead now.


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## waruikazi (May 11, 2013)

FAY said:


> Thanks for all the pics Gordo, they are unreal. How about a naming comp for the boy , it will get national coverage I am sure ??



Go for it Fay!


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## FAY (May 11, 2013)

benc63 said:


> Owen.


hahaha Now that is original..lol


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## Serpent_Gazeux (May 11, 2013)

Is it possible to put the male across the three females in the same season?


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## Bushman (May 11, 2013)

Thanks for sharing your photos and thoughts with us here Gordo.
I agree with your thinking re: diet not being exclusive to fruit bats, based on the fact that all other members of the genus have varied diets. My experience with Morelia pythons indicates that their diet is much more varied than is commonly thought and I see no reason why _Morelia oenpelliensis_ should be any different. They are essentially opportunistic feeders and prey selection depends on local species availability, abundance and no doubt changes as they mature. The perception that they are specialist feeders may come from individual dietary preferences experienced by keepers of this species in the past.


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## wokka (May 11, 2013)

Well done Gordon. Gavin said he was on a winner getting you involved. it seems he was right!


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## thesilverbeast (May 11, 2013)

Thanks for sharing! Most of the time information like this is hidden away to those not "in the loop" so I commend you for being so open! 

Just out of curiosity, why the drop bears? A handy way to get away from search filters? An In-joke?


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## FAY (May 11, 2013)

I was thinking the naming thing was more if Gavin wanted to do it...not APS.....bit like what they do at the zoo. Then you should get the support that you all deserve


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## Dendrobates (May 11, 2013)

thesilverbeast said:


> Just out of curiosity, why the drop bears? A handy way to get away from search filters? An In-joke?



I think out of superstition the Aboriginals won't use the true name of what they are looking for (i.e. Oenpelli) for fear that it will hear that they are searching for it and then avoid them, so the code name 'drop bear' is used to represent the snake. Gordo has taken on the some superstition I assume? Is this right Gordo?


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## Wiganov (May 11, 2013)

FAY said:


> Thanks for all the pics Gordo, they are unreal. How about a naming comp for the boy , it will get national coverage I am sure ??


Sounds like a good idea. I'll drop Gavin a line and see about getting it into the paper I work at.


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## jacorin (May 11, 2013)

how about a native name for it?? from the local tribe(s)


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## SteveNT (May 11, 2013)

Bushman said:


> Thanks for sharing your photos and thoughts with us here Gordo.
> I agree with your thinking re: diet not being exclusive to fruit bats, based on the fact that all other members of the genus have varied diets. My experience with Morelia pythons indicates that their diet is much more varied than is commonly thought and I see no reason why _Morelia oenpelliensis_ should be any different. They are essentially opportunistic feeders and prey selection depends on local species availability, abundance and no doubt changes as they mature. The perception that they are specialist feeders may come from individual dietary preferences experienced by keepers of this species in the past.



I never said they eat fruit bats exclusively. All the specimens I have met hunting have been doing so at ground level. Not good bat habitat . Countrymen tell me they think bats are their main food but wallaroos and possums are definately on the menu.


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## SteveNT (May 11, 2013)

jacorin said:


> how about a native name for it?? from the local tribe(s)



Dinner?


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## jacorin (May 11, 2013)

hahahaha steve....... if who ever gets one of these guys,you had better have some bl oody good security in place me thinks


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## Striker (May 11, 2013)

That's awesome. Although I'm not a particularly frequent poster here I often get online just to check the progress of the Oenpelli project. Particularly after Gavin's talk at the AHS meeting last year. This is fantastic news. Thanks for the information and pictures.


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## thomasssss (May 11, 2013)

good news , i dont look at them and think their a must have myself but i can see why some people do and definitely agree with the points made , regardless of their wild status , would you rather see a couple taken into captivity or take the approach of leave them be and hope for the best?


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## junglepython2 (May 11, 2013)

Fantastic news Gordo, those bigger specimens are truly magnificent. Also great to see young ones being found indicating they are still breeding in the wild.


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## Varanid (May 11, 2013)

I think the local people have a name for it, something like Narawan?


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## Pythoninfinite (May 11, 2013)

This is truly fantastic news, and full credit to all involved! I certainly hope that the first animals made available for purchase are passed on to absolutely ethical keepers. At least one individual I know who operates under dozens of different names would wet himself to be able to send them overseas for the outstanding profits he could make.

Beautiful animals Gordo and Gavin, and great photos too. I remember Weigel's early prediction that Roughies would be a $200 snake within in 10 years, and he wasn't too far off the money!
This is a great example of what can be done with a cooperative effort...

Great news indeed!

Jamie


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## Darlyn (May 11, 2013)

Way to go Gordo. I sure hope someone took a pic of your face when you finally realised your dream?


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## scorps (May 11, 2013)

I remember years ago how I felt when I found my first wild BHP, cant imagine how you guys felt finding them.

Congrats guys.


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## Cockney_Red (May 11, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> The first female (Esther) was 2.3m on capture. Second (Ingird) was 4.2m, latest girl (Kate) hasn't been measured but looks to be over 3m and the boy (yet to be named) is about 1.4m
> 
> This is Ingrid.


Magnificent girl, well done, Black and Whitefellas alike...


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## congo_python (May 11, 2013)

Great pic's and good to see they are still breeding in the wild due to the male juvy capture.


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## Zeusy (May 11, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> Well that's a little embarrassing. I upped the wrong picture last night, i'm surprised no one jumped on me about it!
> 
> Thankyou for making this thread Fay.
> 
> ...



Bet you're glad you were wearing your best pants for the occasion. Did she decide to have a go at ya?? LOL
Kidding, this is really exciting stuff and such gorgeous snake. I love that they a different to anything else.
Congrats


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## Renenet (May 11, 2013)

Gordo, 

Congratulations on the find!

From your experience so far, what are their temperaments like? I realise they're probably not to everyone's taste, but I love the look of them.

Oh, and how long do you think it will take for the young fella to be old enough to breed?


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## slide (May 12, 2013)

Excellent result finally getting a male and 3 females. Good thing the sex ratio wasnt the other way around. That boy will have a lot of pressure on him in a few years. 

Gordo, with regard to their diet, were there any signs(fur/claws etc) of the species that they eat in their faeces?
Bit of a gross question really but scientifically relevant. Also how are the captives taking to feeding in captivity if you dont mind me asking?


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## waruikazi (May 12, 2013)

thesilverbeast said:


> Thanks for sharing! Most of the time information like this is hidden away to those not "in the loop" so I commend you for being so open!
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why the drop bears? A handy way to get away from search filters? An In-joke?



I'm carrying a bit of a superstition that the old folk told me about. You don't say the name of the animal you are looking for or trying to avoid in case they hear you.


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## waruikazi (May 12, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> I never said they eat fruit bats exclusively. All the specimens I have met hunting have been doing so at ground level. Not good bat habitat . Countrymen tell me they think bats are their main food but wallaroos and possums are definately on the menu.



Not so Steve. There are some bats that hunt animals that are on the ground, like the ghost bat. They swoop down and pick frogs, geckos and i'm sure anything else that is small enough to eat.


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## waruikazi (May 12, 2013)

Renenet said:


> Gordo,
> 
> Congratulations on the find!
> 
> ...



The little one and the two others Gav already has are pretty calm. The big girl we found last week was a bit flighty but wasn't at all bitey. I think she was pretty stressed out though with camera flashes and people standing all around her.

I'm only guessing, but i don't see any reason why the male couldn't be ready to breed at 3years so long as he feeds up well.


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## CantBeatALBINOS (May 12, 2013)

great thread to read! can't wait till there hopefully avalible to us!


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## waruikazi (May 12, 2013)

slide said:


> Excellent result finally getting a male and 3 females. Good thing the sex ratio wasnt the other way around. That boy will have a lot of pressure on him in a few years.
> 
> Gordo, with regard to their diet, were there any signs(fur/claws etc) of the species that they eat in their faeces?
> Bit of a gross question really but scientifically relevant. Also how are the captives taking to feeding in captivity if you dont mind me asking?



I saw the poo from Ingrid the big girl, it was full of fur. Couldn't tell what it was from. Ingrid is feeding very well but Esther stopped feeding voluntarily.


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## SteveNT (May 12, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> Not so Steve. There are some bats that hunt animals that are on the ground, like the ghost bat. They swoop down and pick frogs, geckos and i'm sure anything else that is small enough to eat.



Yes but it's hardly likely that oenpellis are going to wait next to prey items on the off chance that a ghost bat will swoop down lol. More likely to grab them in their roost.


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## waruikazi (May 12, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> Yes but it's hardly likely that oenpellis are going to wait next to prey items on the off chance that a ghost bat will swoop down lol. More likely to grab them in their roost.



I disagree, it is very likely that they will wait in areas that their prey's prey is likely to frequent because then their prey will turn up!


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## Zanks (May 12, 2013)

Great work to all involved!!!!
Bewdiful looking species in my opinion.


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## slide (May 12, 2013)

Thanks for sharing the info Gordo.
Love the "reduced pattern" look they naturally have.


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## sharky (May 12, 2013)

These specimens are gorgeous! Thank you so much for sharing Gordo


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## Bushman (May 12, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> I saw the poo from Ingrid the big girl, it was full of fur. Couldn't tell what it was from. Ingrid is feeding very well but Esther stopped feeding voluntarily.


Were the faeces collected for further analysis? A good lab should be able to identify the type of mammal that she preyed upon. Analysis of any faeces that may be passed by these wild caught specimens (if they had anything in their system at the time of capture) would give invaluable insight into prey species selection. Of particular interest would be any faeces from the juvenile male. I wouldn't be surprised if scales were found, indicating that juveniles include reptiles in their diet.


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## Umbral (May 12, 2013)

Thanks for all the info, it's great that we are able to talk about this and it's all isn't being hushed up and being put into captivity for the almighty dollar.


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## waruikazi (May 12, 2013)

Bushman said:


> Were the faeces collected for further analysis? A good lab should be able to identify the type of mammal that she preyed upon. Analysis of any faeces that may be passed by these wild caught specimens (if they had anything in their system at the time of capture) would give invaluable insight into prey species selection. Of particular interest would be any faeces from the juvenile male. I wouldn't be surprised if scales were found, indicating that juveniles include reptiles in their diet.



I agree it would be very interesting. I'm not sure if Gav kept the poops, it would be good to get some lab work done. Gav will be reading this so with any luck this will prompt him to do it.


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## phatty (May 12, 2013)

Will there be any on display at croc cove 
I while ago when driving on fog bay Rd was a huge snake that had been run over wasn't in to reps that much then so didn't think to stop wasn't a olive do you think it might have been one of these as when I say Huge it was from one side of the road to the other 

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 2


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## bohdi13 (May 12, 2013)

Trimeresurus said:


> Oenpelli's have very Morelia like heads and bodys. If anything scrubbies least resemble other morelia.
> 
> Looking forward to these being around in captivity.



haha, the recent photos i had seen just didn't bring justice to their body shape. but the pictures posted just after your post really show how much they look like Morelia species! sorry about that ...:lol:


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## Ramsayi (May 12, 2013)

bohdi13 said:


> haha, the recent photos i had seen just didn't bring justice to their body shape. but the pictures posted just after your post really show how much they look like Morelia species! sorry about that ...:lol:



Not to worry.I was lucky enough to get up close to one back in 2004 and one of my first thoughts was "overgrown Ant".


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## cement (May 12, 2013)

Great news .... on so many levels.
I don't believe these animals should be publicly displayed yet. Maybe in a few years time when theres been a few clutches. They should be treated with quite comfort and respect, and given body guards!


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## Darlyn (May 12, 2013)

cement said:


> Great news .... on so many levels.
> I don't believe these animals should be publicly displayed yet. Maybe in a few years time when theres been a few clutches. They should be treated with quite comfort and respect, and given body guards!



Do you mean photos shouldn't have been released or that the snakes should be kept away from the public? Or something else?


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## thomasssss (May 12, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Do you mean photos shouldn't have been released or that the snakes should be kept away from the public? Or something else?


i believe his reffering to the post asking if they will be displayed at croc cove or what ever its called


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## Brodie (May 12, 2013)

They've been on display to the public for a very long time. I don't know if this is still the case, but it was over 10 years.


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## Darlyn (May 12, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> i believe his reffering to the post asking if they will be displayed at croc cove or what ever its called


Okay, thanks.


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## cement (May 12, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Do you mean photos shouldn't have been released or that the snakes should be kept away from the public? Or something else?



They should be kept away from the public. (i'm sure this will be the case).At least until they have have done the job that they were secured for. There is lot of pressure now on Bedford and co to produce offspring, not just for the wants of the 'hobbyists' and smugglers but for the actual conservation effort and as monetary reward to the TO's. It would be crazy to publicly display animals as important as this.


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## wokka (May 13, 2013)

cement said:


> They should be kept away from the public. (i'm sure this will be the case).At least until they have have done the job that they were secured for. There is lot of pressure now on Bedford and co to produce offspring, not just for the wants of the 'hobbyists' and smugglers but for the actual conservation effort and as monetary reward to the TO's. It would be crazy to publicly display animals as important as this.


I know Gavin breeds a lot of his display animals. Surely if an animal can be displayed without compromising the breeding poential then it would add to the public awareness and education. Lets face it the input from the general reptile community has been minmal, so if displaying the animal can financially benefit the Traditional Owners, the project and conservation then why not. One reason Gavin "got the job" is that his track record shows that he is able to captive breed wild caught animals. ( even with display) By the way I dont know if Gavin intends displaying animals or not.


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## phatty (May 13, 2013)

wokka said:


> I know Gavin breeds a lot of his display animals. Surely if an animal can be displayed without compromising the breeding poential then it would add to the public awareness and education. Lets face it the input from the general reptile community has been minmal, so if displaying the animal can financially benefit the Traditional Owners, the project and conservation then why not. One reason Gavin "got the job" is that his track record shows that he is able to captive breed wild caught animals. ( even with display) By the way I dont know if Gavin intends displaying animals or not.



that is the reason for my question as i know he has some rare reptiles on display when i went a few years ago when it first opened


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## Bushman (May 13, 2013)

Fair enough question Phatty. Cement and Wokka have put both sides quite well and ultimately it's up to Gavin of course. However, given the previous history of this species suggesting that it's particularly sensitive to stress (remember that snakes don't often show stress) and considering what's at stake here, I don't think Gavin will risk reducing his chances of breeding them by displaying them.


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## glebo (May 13, 2013)

Let me say it is heartening to have a lively discussion about this topic. I agree with SteveNT in that a lot of whitefellas have been disingenuous when dealing with Aboriginal landowners, and no doubt will continue to be. However I am under contract to ensure the deal we have is adhered to. More than that, they are my partners in this so my moral compass would not let me do anything detrimental to this project. I am eternally grateful to so many people that after 9 years this project is no longer a dream (although I still feel like I am dreaming) it is reality. First and foremost are Gordo and Greg/s and my Aboriginal partners. Their support is without parallel and they are aware of the impact and energy this project gives to the Landowners, Parks and Wildlife NT, the general public even going right through to the buzz in the herp community. In fact even the Oenpelli school kids are excited by this animal and this project I am lead to believe. This is a special snake there can be no doubt about it and I agree with much of what has been written and can only say that while Wokka is correct in that it could be displayed at CC, especially the sub adult until it matured, I hold this project in the highest regard so will not display them. They are, as someone said, a stress animal and anyone who has dealt with reptiles for a long time will have seen it in captives. These are wild caught animals and as such will be subject to minimal disturbance. I will go into a great deal more detail about a few things when I get a chance but again want to thank you all for the support on this forum. Initially I had hoped to pre-sell some animals to fund this project. That did not happen and that offer was removed some time ago for all those who pledged to pre-purchase. I will now try to breed them then see where it all goes. Regards Gavin
PS - am saving and checking poo for the snakes to see what they have been doing.


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## yommy (May 13, 2013)

Top work Gavin and Co. 
A truely amazing project and truely amazing animal.
All the success to you,


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## Bushman (May 13, 2013)

It's our pleasure Gavin. Thanks very much for your post, as it's great to hear from you directly about this project. It's good to hear that you won't be displaying them and will be having the faeces analyzed. The insights that will be gained from bringing this species into captivity and breeding it like you're intending on doing, will no doubt make a significant contribution to our understanding of this magnificent, enigmatic and mysterious species.


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## slide (May 13, 2013)

I look forward to updates on how these fellas get on. Hope you find a mature male Gavin. 
Cheers, Aaron


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## Chicken (May 13, 2013)

Aaaand another one!


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## PieBald (May 13, 2013)

Chicken said:


> Aaaand another one!


What you mean another found or something?


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## sara_sabian (May 13, 2013)

Yeah, looks like it in facebook, an adult male I think


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## abnrmal91 (May 13, 2013)

Gordo is just showing off now lol. He looks great, nice big male should be great for the project.


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## Renenet (May 13, 2013)

Chicken said:


> Aaaand another one!



What, seriously? Have they found somewhere that sells them?


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## Renenet (May 13, 2013)

glebo said:


> I will go into a great deal more detail about a few things when I get a chance but again want to thank you all for the support on this forum.



Thanks for the personal update. I look forward to seeing what your growing collection of Oenpellis produces in the future.


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## saratoga (May 13, 2013)

3 finds in less than a week after years of searching... great reward!


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## waruikazi (May 14, 2013)

Yep another one turned up on Sunday night. Finding more than one wasn't something i expected to happen, i was even beginning to think that i wasn't going to find one at all. Two in a week was well beyond my wildest thoughts. But to find a third in less than a week... WOW! I'm still expecting to wake up... This has got to be some kind of a record! LOL

This one is another male, he looks very mature. I don't think he is as long as the girl we found last week but is still looking over the 3m mark although a lot thinner (but boys nearly always are). 

I really need to publicly thank Gavin for the opportunity to be part of this project, it has meant a lot to me. It is testament to your character that you continued with this project after a decade of set backs. Your hard work starts now lol!

We also owe a lot of gratitude to the Traditional Owners of the land we are working on. Without their support this couldn't and wouldn't have happened. 

And all those others that have helped with advise, stories and encouragement over the last few years. The Greg's (there's about 3 of you), Col, Grant, Steve, Roger, Stewart, Daniel and lots of others who's names I forgot or never knew you guys know who you are. Everything helped and i've appreciated all of it!


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## phatty (May 14, 2013)

does this mean they will be breed this season or will they be rested for a untill next year 

awesome stuff guys


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## Bushman (May 14, 2013)

Wow! That's great news Gordo. Three in a week is truly amazing! 
A HUGE CONGRATS to you, Gavin and all those that contributed. It's heart-warming to hear about the camaraderie[FONT=&quot][/FONT] that has taken place to make this a success. 
Finding a mature male really is the icing on the cake, as now the breeding program can start without delay. Pairing and mating is a realistic goal within months rather than years. 
These are extremely great days indeed!


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## smeejason (May 14, 2013)

Well done to all involved. I cannot wait to able to one day have 1 in my collection.


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## jacevy (May 14, 2013)

May I ask a lame question...
Why are they all on the road?
Is it just a fluke that you are driving along and see them?
Is there some way you a luring them out?


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## Renenet (May 14, 2013)

Awesome news, Gordo and Gavin, and so exciting. Do you think there's any reason you managed to find three in a week, or is it simply one of those crazy coincidences you'd never be able to make up?

Now that you have five oenpellis, including a mature male, the captive breeding program can begin in earnest. I don't know for sure how many snakes you are allowed to collect in total, but I suspect it's not a high number. Unfortunately, this gives you a limited gene pool to work with. Do you think this will have any effect on the breeding program and the long-term goal to preserve the species in captivity?

Thanks,
Ren


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## thomasssss (May 14, 2013)

jacevy said:


> May I ask a lame question...
> Why are they all on the road?
> Is it just a fluke that you are driving along and see them?
> Is there some way you a luring them out?


haha , yea big piece of chicken on a stick and you walk around going "here Oenpelli here Oenpelli" making weird little kissy things with your lips , you know like people do with cats  

seriously though i believe you will find they where put on the road (possibly infront of a cars headlights) to take the pics and not actually found on the road


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## Dendrobates (May 14, 2013)

How many more are they planning on taking? I know it's good for the hobby and I definitely support it - but I have to admit that it's a little bit sad to see those adult females being pulled from the wild.


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## Jeffa (May 14, 2013)

Great to see there is a number of drop bears to get a good breeding project put in place. my questions are, although there are a few specimens already obtained. How many will be needed to keep the gene pool relatively "clean" to keep the species healthey viable for future captive breeding stock? And would it be a good practice to eventually put in place a programn to "replace any animal taken from the wild with a captive born animal to keep the wild poulation from potentiall collapsing?
I absolutely love the work that you guys are doing to bring these guys into captivity and cementing there existence if their wild populations go exctinct. Well done!And one more question, how many original rsp's were obtained?

Well done again.

Cheers 
Jeff


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## waruikazi (May 14, 2013)

jacevy said:


> May I ask a lame question...
> Why are they all on the road?
> Is it just a fluke that you are driving along and see them?
> Is there some way you a luring them out?



It's just dumb luck that they were there. No trickery about it!



Renenet said:


> Awesome news, Gordo and Gavin, and so exciting. Do you think there's any reason you managed to find three in a week, or is it simply one of those crazy coincidences you'd never be able to make up?
> 
> Now that you have five oenpellis, including a mature male, the captive breeding program can begin in earnest. I don't know for sure how many snakes you are allowed to collect in total, but I suspect it's not a high number. Unfortunately, this gives you a limited gene pool to work with. Do you think this will have any effect on the breeding program and the long-term goal to preserve the species in captivity?
> 
> ...



There is definitely a reason that they were all on the roads. I don't know what that reason is yet, but i'm pretty determined to work it out. 3 inside a week isn't a chance event, there must be some conditions that are causing this.



thomasssss said:


> haha , yea big piece of chicken on a stick and you walk around going "here Oenpelli here Oenpelli" making weird little kissy things with your lips , you know like people do with cats
> 
> seriously though i believe you will find they where put on the road (possibly infront of a cars headlights) to take the pics and not actually found on the road



Nope all on the road. I wish i had of found them in the escarpment, would have made for a much better story and would have been a bit more satisfying as a herper.



aspidorhyncha said:


> How many more are they planning on taking? I know it's good for the hobby and I definitely support it - but I have to admit that it's a little bit sad to see those adult females being pulled from the wild.



I've said this to a few people, i am really conflicted about taking these animals from the wild. As i am with any other animal. But i think this is an ethical project and will have a negligible effect on wild stocks in the short term and potentially big positives in the future for Indigenous people and the environment.


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## Jeffa (May 14, 2013)

On the move, could it be possible warmth on roads (even though i suspect the rocks on the escarpment would hold more heat gradient)? or more likely searching for a potential mate (breeding season)?


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## thomasssss (May 14, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> It's just dumb luck that they were there. No trickery about it!
> 
> 
> Nope all on the road. I wish i had of found them in the escarpment, would have made for a much better story and would have been a bit more satisfying as a herper.


wow that really , really surprises me , right place right time eh you guys must be stoked but on the other hand id be a little cut ( but still stoked) after all the money , hard work and time thats gone into it and you find them on the bloody road 

maybe try my chicken trick to find some more , works wonders trust me you just have to hold your lips right


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## cement (May 14, 2013)

Gordo, well done!
My thoughts on why you found this number in a relatively short time goes like this.
Think of the season... are they between seasons? 
My work with wild snakes here shows me that they have seasonal haunts for certain reasons.... is the seasonal climate up there (minimal and stable as it is) forcing them to move from feeding grounds to breeding grounds? To my way of thinking they would most likely be sensitive to fairly slight, environmental climatic change.
Once an animal reaches its seasonal haunt, it is less likely to be found. It may be that they are between seasons and therefore mobile. It may pay to follow or radio track an animal or two now. Cheers


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## junglepython2 (May 14, 2013)

Jeffa said:


> Great to see there is a number of drop bears to get a good breeding project put in place. my questions are, although there are a few specimens already obtained. How many will be needed to keep the gene pool relatively "clean" to keep the species healthey viable for future captive breeding stock? And would it be a good practice to eventually put in place a programn to "replace any animal taken from the wild with a captive born animal to keep the wild poulation from potentiall collapsing?
> I absolutely love the work that you guys are doing to bring these guys into captivity and cementing there existence if their wild populations go exctinct. Well done!And one more question, how many original rsp's were obtained?
> 
> Well done again.
> ...


If my memory serves me correctly there were 6 RSP's taken. I'm not sure if they all added to the current gene pool though. Regardless the current captive RSP population appears stable and healthy. There are plenty of current locale line snakes that have come from a very limited gene pool and are going strong many generations later. Taking 8 animals seems about spot on to me at this stage. If needed the gene pool can always be injected with fresh blood at a later date and if taking as few as 8 animals causes the wild population to crash it was doomed anyway.


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## Jeffa (May 14, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> If my memory serves me correctly there were 6 RSP's taken. I'm not sure if they all added to the current gene pool though. Regardless the current captive RSP population appears stable and healthy. There are plenty of current locale line snakes that have come from a very limited gene pool and are going strong many generations later. Taking 8 animals seems about spot on to me at this stage. If needed the gene pool can always be injected with fresh blood at a later date and if taking as few as 8 animals causes the wild population to crash it was doomed anyway.



Thanks Jungle, great reply.

I was just a little concerned that there may be a few isolated populations in certain areas that taking a few specimens from one area may have a dentremental affect on that isolated population if this is the case.
Take out 2 breeding females and a male from a certain isolated distributed area may cause the downfall of that population, would you think?
Not having a go in any form because the species as a whole need to be preserved. But replacing a few captive snakes to an area that has been previously harvested at a later date screams logic? 
I am 100% in agreeance to this project and encourage Gavin and Gordo to take as many as necessary to bring these guys into captivity, but why not reintroduce offspring to these areas that they have been taken from?


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## saratoga (May 14, 2013)

I'm so happy so see that these snakes still seem to be around in reasonable numbers... just very hard to find. I remember several years ago on this forum, along with others expressing concerns for the future of this snake as there were very few reports of them being around since the toads arrival. In addition plummeting mammal numbers and diversity in the Top End, and very frequent and hot fire regimes were all areas of serious concern for the long term survival of this species. It now seems that at least for the time being they are fairing ok, and it's comforting to know that a captive population will be established and we stand to learn a lot more about them in the near future.

All the best to all those involved in the project and thanks to the Traditional owners for supporting the project and research on this wonderful animal. Look forward to these being available in the near future, but looking forward even more of getting a photo of one in the wild, and now I feel slightly more optimistic about that!

In the words of Rick Shine "To see one of these giant ghostly snakes stretched out on the Arnhem Land escarpment in the moonlight is one of the great sights of Australian herpetology."




waruikazi said:


> But to find a third in less than a week... WOW! I'm still expecting to wake up... This has got to be some kind of a record! LOL



Unfortunately not Gordo! Many many years ago, probably early 90's, a tour guide and his tourists discovered 3 adults curled up together in a small rocky hollow on the edge of the Arnhemland escarpement. They were good sized snakes, 3+ metres. Obviously a breeding trio, they unfortunately disturbed them and draped them all around their necks for photos. The photos appeared on their brochures for many years and also in some tourist shopfronts around Darwin


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## junglepython2 (May 14, 2013)

Jeffa said:


> Thanks Jungle, great reply.
> 
> I was just a little concerned that there may be a few isolated populations in certain areas that taking a few specimens from one area may have a dentremental affect on that isolated population if this is the case.
> Take out 2 breeding females and a male from a certain isolated distributed area may cause the downfall of that population, would you think?
> ...


 It sounds logical Jeffa, but releasing CB individuals is very rarely done for good reasons. You run the risk of introducing new pathogens such as virus' to the wild populations which could wipe them out. It may also displace any wild individuals. Unless it can be established that the wild population is either extinct or on the verge of extinction and the reasons for that decline have been addressed I can't ever see them releasing any CB individuals. Also if reports are correct these pythons are on the menu for indigenous folk so the population is some what accustomed to losing adult individuals to humans regardless.


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## wokka (May 14, 2013)

saratoga said:


> Unfortunately not Gordo! Many many years ago, probably early 90's, a tour guide and his tourists discovered 3 adults curled up together in a small rocky hollow on the edge of the Arnhemland escarpement. They were good sized snakes, 3+ metres. Obviously a breeding trio, they unfortunately disturbed them and draped them all around their necks for photos. The photos appeared on their brochures for many years and also in some tourist shopfronts around Darwin


I was always under the impression that pythons in the wild had more of a passing fling when mating rather than hanging around in breeding trios.


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## Jeffa (May 14, 2013)

I hope you are right JP, I really hope this species does not reduce in numbers from the small few that we have taken. It would be a sad loss to see the decline in the species on a level from taking a few mature animals from the wild. I am really looking forward to seeing these guys in captivity at the same state as RSP's. well done again.


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## jedi_339 (May 14, 2013)

cement said:


> Gordo, well done!
> My thoughts on why you found this number in a relatively short time goes like this.
> Think of the season... are they between seasons?
> My work with wild snakes here shows me that they have seasonal haunts for certain reasons.... is the seasonal climate up there (minimal and stable as it is) forcing them to move from feeding grounds to breeding grounds? To my way of thinking they would most likely be sensitive to fairly slight, environmental climatic change.
> Once an animal reaches its seasonal haunt, it is less likely to be found. It may be that they are between seasons and therefore mobile. It may pay to follow or radio track an animal or two now. Cheers



My thoughts cement were to do with the unseasonably dry season that's just been (correct me if it wasn't )

Being that most animals in the top end are adapted for both the good and the harsher periods perhaps there is an increased activity pattern that corresponds to the shift in season but also to the increased difficulty they probably faced as it wasn't a good wet and harder on the animals?

Just my thoughts


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## FAY (May 14, 2013)

Hi Gordo,
What have their temperaments been like? I have heard that are quite placid.


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## saratoga (May 15, 2013)

Jeffa said:


> I was just a little concerned that there may be a few isolated populations in certain areas that taking a few specimens from one area may have a dentremental affect on that isolated population if this is the case.



The Arnhemland escarpment (western edge of the Arnhemland plateau) runs for many hundreds of kilometres as it winds its way roughly along the border of western Arnhemland. These snakes have been seen from Oenpelli in the north, throughout the central area of Kakadu and also in the southern hills and basins of the park. It's pretty reasonable to assume that most of the escarpement country is suitable for them; and as it forms one quite large block of continuous habitat, hopefully any detrimental effects of taking a few individuals out would only be short term.

On the other hand if they were to occur in the small patchwork of parks (surrounded by farmland etc) which are here for example in Victoria, NSW, Queensland, then I think your concerns would be thoroughly justified.


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## wokka (May 15, 2013)

I would think one fox or feral cat or a car, would consume over ten a year from hatchlings up, so a few harvested for breeding wont make much difference to the sustainability of the wild population.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 15, 2013)

You can bet that if Gordo found these snakes on the road, these were the only OBVIOUS animals in the area, but there would be many others locally which weren't on the roads at the time. There is a tendency to focus on these specific animals as if they may be the only ones there, but of course this is not the case - they are just ones that were in the wrong (right?) place at that time. Similarly with GTPs at Iron Range and RSPs in the Kimberley, the only ones which are picked up are those close to where the humans are, and that may be a road in the case of GTPs and Oenpellis.

In their own habitat, away from the exposure that roads facilitate, these cryptic animals may (and obviously do) go totally undetected. 

Great news Gordo & Gavin!

Jamie


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## Bushman (May 15, 2013)

I agree with Saratoga and JP that peoples concerns about removing a few specimens for a breeding programme such as this are unfounded. Any possible detrimental effects will be far outweighed by the benefits to science, the TO's and the ensured survival of the species by captive breeding. The insights and dissemination of knowledge gained will be invaluable to our understanding of the species. Gordon and Gavin have a good attitude and noble intentions towards the snakes and the TO's, who will both benefit from the contribution that will be made to science and by generating independent income the value of the species will be far greater than tucker. Hopefully any future specimens found will be reported and data can be recorded instead of eaten. I think that this is a great initiative and I hope it's successful like it was for _Morelia carinata_.


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## zulu (May 15, 2013)

The movements of these snakes at this time of year may be related to breeding activity,the new male may get it on over the next few months.
Worthwhile project to breed these animals,they could have been run over and wasted like lots of other herps.


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## glebo (May 20, 2013)

I am happy to report that the most recent additions to the project from Gordo are all eating. That is quite amazing considering they are a fairly high stress animal and would have been a bit put out coming from the wild. This probably indicates they were a bit hungry maybe, or that they have settled in without much drama. Either way it is a good sign. I realise not everyone is going to be happy or comfortable with this project, in the same way that not everyone agrees with the idea of sustainable use of wildlife, but I still say that there are many animals in decline on the planet, including animals in Australia and unless and until people power makes something happen to ensure plants, animals and in general ECOSYSTEMS are fully functional with the remaining suite of animals safe from extinction then the best we can hope for are ad hoc, last ditch efforts to bandaid what is left before it is gone. It is all well and good to have an opinion on an animal in decline but it is whole new ballgame trying to point the finger at a person or a group when an animal has gone extinct. That is where we are at with the Christmas Island Pippestrelle (bat). It was managed to extinction very well, but noone put up their hand to actually DO anything. The same thing is happening with critters in Kakadu National Park, and again some are being monitored on that slippery slope to extinction, without anything REALLY happening to help. So I am trying to help because I have the skills to deal with a python. It then takes people who have the skills to manage mammals to do the same, similarly some of the fire affected plants. Surely it makes sense to try to do something before its too late, but it will take people like all of you to do something both as a collective and as individuals if you have the skills to do so. To sit and whinge that you dont like this project or that project is to continue the whole process - one of decline and decay in what is essentially OUR NATURAL HERITAGE. I want my son to see and be part of it, and I am working so that your children get the same opportunity. I hope to meet you at some stage if you want to help, because between us all we can make a difference, you just have to put up your hand.
Regards
Gavin


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## Simon_Archibald (May 20, 2013)

glebo said:


> I am happy to report that the most recent additions to the project from Gordo are all eating. That is quite amazing considering they are a fairly high stress animal and would have been a bit put out coming from the wild. This probably indicates they were a bit hungry maybe, or that they have settled in without much drama. Either way it is a good sign. I realise not everyone is going to be happy or comfortable with this project, in the same way that not everyone agrees with the idea of sustainable use of wildlife, but I still say that there are many animals in decline on the planet, including animals in Australia and unless and until people power makes something happen to ensure plants, animals and in general ECOSYSTEMS are fully functional with the remaining suite of animals safe from extinction then the best we can hope for are ad hoc, last ditch efforts to bandaid what is left before it is gone. It is all well and good to have an opinion on an animal in decline but it is whole new ballgame trying to point the finger at a person or a group when an animal has gone extinct. That is where we are at with the Christmas Island Pippestrelle (bat). It was managed to extinction very well, but noone put up their hand to actually DO anything. The same thing is happening with critters in Kakadu National Park, and again some are being monitored on that slippery slope to extinction, without anything REALLY happening to help. So I am trying to help because I have the skills to deal with a python. It then takes people who have the skills to manage mammals to do the same, similarly some of the fire affected plants. Surely it makes sense to try to do something before its too late, but it will take people like all of you to do something both as a collective and as individuals if you have the skills to do so. To sit and whinge that you dont like this project or that project is to continue the whole process - one of decline and decay in what is essentially OUR NATURAL HERITAGE. I want my son to see and be part of it, and I am working so that your children get the same opportunity. I hope to meet you at some stage if you want to help, because between us all we can make a difference, you just have to put up your hand.
> Regards
> Gavin



Truly well said Gavin. It's unfortunate that the negativity of people who are poorly informed and armed with no facts continues to manifest itself in our community. What is inspiring though is someone who walks in the face of that same negativity, in order to achieve a greater outcome.

My biggest regret is not being in a financially suitable position many years ago to get involved with the Varanus glebopalma project you undertook. Would have lived them. Off topic, how did that go, and are you working with other monitor species in a similar way?

Simon


Simon Archibald


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## zulu (May 20, 2013)

I dont think there is much opposition to taking a founder population for captive purposes ,would be didley sqatt of the population anyway given that most of the habitat is intact and out of bounds for many human activities except indiginous.
The NT government has had long enough to initiate studies and theyve done stuff all so this is the most that will be learned in the foreseeable future.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 20, 2013)

Fully agree with zulu... as in WA with the RSPs and other species which will be affected by the relentless spread of Cane Toads, the bureaucrats would sooner let them go extinct than let them into the hands of keepers. Bureaucracies here have a huge resistance to putting a commercial value on wildlife, and the disappearance of species may well be on their heads as time goes on.

Jamie


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## FAY (May 20, 2013)

I would prefer them collected from the wild and into breeding projects then down the track just see them in a museum like the thylacine, it MAY never happen, but then again, it MAY.


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## SteveNT (May 20, 2013)

The toads will cause ruin I'm afraid cobber, I've watched the whole sorry process myself. Some animals come back, but slowly.

I'm not convinced that the oenpellis are in decline. Especially when you find 3 in a week on the little ribbons called roads. I support the project but get those 3 or 4 meter enclosures on the drawing board you mob.


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## phatty (May 20, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> The toads will cause ruin I'm afraid cobber, I've watched the whole sorry process myself. Some animals come back, but slowly.
> 
> I'm not convinced that the oenpellis are in decline. Especially when you find 3 in a week on the little ribbons called roads. I support the project but get those 3 or 4 meter enclosures on the drawing board you mob.



got mine already haha


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## Darwin-boy (May 21, 2013)

congrats guys! fantastic find i envy you guys! wish i could come out and help look for them....


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## waruikazi (May 21, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> The toads will cause ruin I'm afraid cobber, I've watched the whole sorry process myself. Some animals come back, but slowly.
> 
> I'm not convinced that the oenpellis are in decline. Especially when you find 3 in a week on the little ribbons called roads. I support the project but get those 3 or 4 meter enclosures on the drawing board you mob.



I'm not convinced that they are under immediate threat of extinction Steve, but the anecdotal evidence definitely point to numbers being in decline. I am of the belief that they are in decline, particularly from outliers to the main escarpment. I'm quite convinced they are extinct from Cannon Hill and Border Store area, the species that never used to be recorded there that cope with fire have moved in. 

You need to take the three finds in their full context- over 800 hours of field work in the area during 3 1/2 years. There are only two other escarpment species (herps) that i haven't found, one is critically endangered and the other is a species that went extinct before anyone could describe it. The hot spot surveys are telling us this too.

We both know the state of the hot season fires, weeds and ferals in Kakadu and West Arnhem. You've told me this yourself Steve, but then to say that these snakes are more or less safe in the next breath is illogical. These animals are long lived, feed very irregularly and are hard to find. We are not going to see the dramatic decline that we have seen in other short lived species. That is until it is too late. 

I did think like you for a long time Steve, my reasons were similar to yours. The local people told me there were still heaps of them out there and i believed them. But like you indicated, if they are in fact safe then there is nothing wrong with sustainable use programs.


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## DanN (May 23, 2013)

Hi Gordo,

If I may, how many carpet pythons have you found in the stone country? Not on roads, but actually in the escarpment country while looking for Oenpellis? I'd imagine they are a species that occurs up there but is very rarely seen - perhaps as rarely as Oenpellis......  

Maybe you've seen lots, but my point is that it is very difficult to infer an actual decline when anecdotes are inherently filled with bias. Don't get me wrong, they could be on the slippery slope, but there isn't a lot of evidence as yet. Maybe that is Steve's point? Sweet project nonetheless.

Typed while feeling incredibly envious of all your adventures - keep it up!

Dan


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## waruikazi (May 23, 2013)

DanN said:


> Hi Gordo,
> 
> If I may, how many carpet pythons have you found in the stone country? Not on roads, but actually in the escarpment country while looking for Oenpellis? I'd imagine they are a species that occurs up there but is very rarely seen - perhaps as rarely as Oenpellis......
> 
> ...



No carpets in the escarpment but we have seen them down on the river and around cannon hill. But I suspect that isn't your point. I agree the evidence is scant for a decline but I don't think the evidence that is there indicates that the population is safe. No matter how it is interpreted and I'm not just relying on my anecdotes.


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## DanN (May 23, 2013)

Thanks, Gordo.

That was actually my point  Carpets occur in the same habitat as Oenpellis, yet they are not commonly seen. Species with relatively similar spatial ecology I suspect. Therefore, the apparent difficulty in locating these things may not necessarily be due to a decline. Non-anuran eating, infrequently feeding stone country pythons are probably better suited than most to withstand the changes occurring in that part of the world.

I hope you understand I'm not trying to detract from the significance of the project - declining or not, I think what Gavin is doing is fantastic - certainly better to be safe than sorry.


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## waruikazi (May 23, 2013)

DanN said:


> Thanks, Gordo.
> 
> That was actually my point  Carpets occur in the same habitat as Oenpellis, yet they are not commonly seen. Species with relatively similar spatial ecology I suspect. Therefore, the apparent difficulty in locating these things may not necessarily be due to a decline. Non-anuran eating, infrequently feeding stone country pythons are probably better suited than most to withstand the changes occurring in that part of the world.
> 
> I hope you understand I'm not trying to detract from the significance of the project - declining or not, I think what Gavin is doing is fantastic - certainly better to be safe than sorry.



completely understand, I don't take offence at all. I was hoping and expecting (after 3in a week) a conversation like this was going to come up. 

What do you think the affects of what we are seeing with habitat destruction, weeds, ferals and crashing numbers of stone country small mammals is on one of the escarpment's top predators?

And, anecdotally, we have seen an affect on carpets from the toads.


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## DanN (May 23, 2013)

waruikazi said:


> What do you think the affects of what we are seeing with habitat destruction, weeds, ferals and crashing numbers of stone country small mammals is on one of the escarpment's top predators?



Personally? Very little. Still plenty of stone country, still plenty of places to hide from intense wildfires (crevices, caves, monsoonal vine thickets), still enough small mammals about for a large python to feed on every six months.

I also don't imagine ferals preying on Oenpellis is a big problem - apparently they are really hard to find? As for toads and your tall stories of wounded carpet pythons, anecdotally, all of the wild Oenpellis I've seen eating toads were fine...


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## waruikazi (May 24, 2013)

DanN said:


> Personally? Very little. Still plenty of stone country, still plenty of places to hide from intense wildfires (crevices, caves, monsoonal vine thickets), still enough small mammals about for a large python to feed on every six months.
> 
> I also don't imagine ferals preying on Oenpellis is a big problem - apparently they are really hard to find? As for toads and your tall stories of wounded carpet pythons, anecdotally, all of the wild Oenpellis I've seen eating toads were fine...



Still enough small mammals for a large python to feed every 6 months? I hope you're not basing that on anecdotes!  Now even if there is still enough small mammals, birds etc for them to feed every 6 months, how would that effect them if they are meant to be feeding every 3 months? We are getting in to the realm of hypothetical questions but i think they are relevant. A reduction in prey items will have an affect on population dynamics. 

When there are researchers like John Woinarski (and he's not the only one) claiming that the reduction in small mammal populations and habitat for the reasons i already pointed out, is a threat and likely to have an affect on this animals population i think we need to listen. I don't think fires and feral predators are having a direct impact on their numbers, but i think it is very likely there is an indirect impact.


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## PurLex (May 26, 2013)

why are these so exxy? i did a bit of a google, but its not really helping me. Where rae they from? what family?


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## wokka (May 26, 2013)

PurLex said:


> why are these so exxy? i did a bit of a google, but its not really helping me. Where rae they from? what family?


Read the prvious 10 pages. Kakadu, Morelia,


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## PurLex (May 26, 2013)

10 pages thoroughly read!
mild regret for posting prematurely.
looking forward to hearing updates over the next couple of years


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## longqi (May 26, 2013)

DanN said:


> Personally? Very little. Still plenty of stone country, still plenty of places to hide from intense wildfires (crevices, caves, monsoonal vine thickets), still enough small mammals about for a large python to feed on every six months.
> 
> I also don't imagine ferals preying on Oenpellis is a big problem - apparently they are really hard to find? As for toads and your tall stories of wounded carpet pythons, anecdotally, all of the wild Oenpellis I've seen eating toads were fine...



Im not a fan of oenpellis but do believe they may be in decline
We have the opportunity to save them, if we act now
So why not do it??
If they are not very fecund the reduction in small mammal numbers could have a huge impact
That impact would not be on the adults as much as on the hatchies which must feed more often than every six months???
Although predators may avoid adults surely the hatchies are as vulnerable as any other young reptiles

Every ecosystem is a circle
We must preserve those circles where ever we can


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## hunterschamps (Jun 20, 2013)

Great work on the project guys, this is the sort of project i believe more people should be involved in and/or supporting, whether it be physically or thru other means. eg, financially.

Well done, look forward to hearing more in the future!


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## phatty (Jun 20, 2013)

i was speaking to someone the other day he told me that he is going to pick up his oenpellis from some tribal men which are his friends how does that work ???


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## thomasssss (Jun 20, 2013)

phatty said:


> i was speaking to someone the other day he told me that he is going to pick up his oenpellis from some tribal men which are his friends how does that work ???


either telling porky pies or his doing something that is a little illegal , i could be wrong but i dont thing the government has given out any other permits and as there protected by government laws one would think that they would be the ones to give it out , permission may be needed from the indiginous people but i dont think that they themselves can just go giving them out to people


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## phatty (Jun 20, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> either telling porky pies or his doing something that is a little illegal , i could be wrong but i dont thing the government has given out any other permits and as there protected by government laws one would think that they would be the ones to give it out , permission may be needed from the indiginous people but i dont think that them themselves can just go giving them out to people



Well that is what I was thinking other wise every one in Darwin would have one haha 

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## Striker (Aug 4, 2013)

Thought I'd revive an old thread and ask if there is any update on the project and plans for the next steps with the snakes that have been found? Anyone have any info?


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## Jeffa (Mar 26, 2014)

Bump guys. Any updates with the 5 that have been collected?


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## wokka (Mar 26, 2014)

Most of them are feeding well on Rodentfarm Rabbits.


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## Darlyn (Mar 26, 2014)

wokka said:


> Most of them are feeding well on Rodentfarm Rabbits.



I wondered what they were eating. Are the ones not eating rabbits just not eating?

- - - Updated - - -


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## Striker (Mar 26, 2014)

So any update on the breeding plans?


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## -Peter (Mar 26, 2014)

wokka said:


> Most of them are feeding well on Rodentfarm Rabbits.



need frozen fruitbats on your product list.


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## cement (Mar 27, 2014)

phatty said:


> i was speaking to someone the other day he told me that he is going to pick up his oenpellis from some tribal men which are his friends how does that work ???



Are we seriously to beleive that Gavins are the only ones in existence in captivity?

As an aside,
How does everyone feel about these animals being crammed into tiny containers and smuggled overseas for huge dollars, and being cross bred with other morelia sub species and jags?
Is there a line in the sand with these "special' snakes, or does the hobby welcome the new blood to create more of the much loved mongrels that we see so prevalent today?
Cast your mind a few years down the road, they will be just like any other common captive python won't they?
A few people will gain legend status for bringing them in and "saving" them, while others with complete disregard for the mythology, evolution and provenence will be rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of what they can now "produce".
Personally, I almost wish they were put back in the bush, knowing what this hobby has in mind for them.


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## Bushman (Mar 27, 2014)

cement said:


> ...How does everyone feel about these animals being crammed into tiny containers and smuggled overseas for huge dollars, and being cross bred with other morelia sub species and jags?
> Is there a line in the sand with these "special' snakes, or does the hobby welcome the new blood to create more of the much loved mongrels that we see so prevalent today?
> Cast your mind a few years down the road, they will be just like any other common captive python won't they?
> A few people will gain legend status for bringing them in and "saving" them, while others with complete disregard for the mythology, evolution and provenence will be rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of what they can now "produce".
> Personally, I almost wish they were put back in the bush, knowing what this hobby has in mind for them.


I'd be absolutely appalled, as I'm sure most would. Hopefully that's not going to happen to these magnificent creatures. I'm sure that Gavin will be doing everything in his power to ensure that this does not happen. My understanding is that the first captive bred Oenpelli's are going to select keepers with the necessary experience to look after these animals well.


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## AUSHERP (Mar 27, 2014)

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing [MENTION=4778]cement[/MENTION]. I think a captive project with a new species is as exciting as it gets but when casting my mind a few years down the road I see a not so bright future for oenpellis once the irresponsible public get their hands on them. Museums, zoos and a select network of serious keepers should be where these animals stay.
Also once there is enough of them on license it just encourages poaching and the black market trade as with any high profile specie we have seen before.


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## Owzi (Mar 27, 2014)

I would have to disagree that the 'hobby' will somewhat ruin these guys in captivity.
Anyone prepared to pay big dollars for them will respect them. As for years down the track, I still think the majority will respect the species. Look at Roughies now, although they are less valuable dollar wise, people I've dealt with still very much value the species. I've heard rumors of GTP x RSP but never seen any, haven't heard of crossing with carpets. Yes some seem to have appeared questionably overseas, which is disappointing.
I personally think there's a vocal minority in all the forums that love the mixed muddled morphs, but a silent majority that happily keep locality types.
Bringing this species into captivity is a positive in my opinion & if anything will take pressure off any being poached (not that there easy to find by all accounts).
Fingers crossed they reproduce this season!


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## saximus (Mar 27, 2014)

It hasn’t really been done with Scrubs (or if it has, it certainly isn’t as widely done as with other Morelia). So maybe people have a bit more respect for these bigger animals?


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## dragondragon (Mar 27, 2014)

I wonder what the clutch size would be for this species


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## AvidRepSupplies (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm glad Gavin has been able to get the permit and also found a nice little group of them to establish them into the hobby.
I would be assuming that they will make it into over seas collections, and most likely in a legal way.
Without a doubt some of the offspring will be released into the care of Zoo's all around the world.
Once they start breeding them, some zoos can release excess stock into the hands of collectors with the correct permits etc.

I am pretty sure that's how it works, happy to stand corrected otherwise though.


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## eipper (Mar 27, 2014)

Anyone who thinks oenpelli's are not already kept and bred overseas has their head in the sand. These animals that Gavin is attempting to breed are to supply customers who have already paid a deposit for the offspring. When he is successfull the customers will I assume pay the rest and have their snakes, this deal has been in place for some time.


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## cement (Mar 27, 2014)

And they will grow out and breed, and sell to anyone with the dollars to make their money back. It is a fantasy to beleive these snakes will recieve different treatment.


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## Shotta (Mar 27, 2014)

you can see the 2 oenpelli's Krauss hatched back in the 80's on the book "Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas" by Ross and Marzec


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## eipper (Mar 27, 2014)

Peter was the first to breed Oenpelli's..... he wrote an article about it in Thylacinus. Monitor reprinted in the early 2000's ..... I re typed it out into a digital format for monitor. Ross and Marzec's data came from Peter.


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## Bushfire (Mar 27, 2014)

Hope he brings a few more in captivity. When push comes to shove with the majority of small range animals the only chance they have is in captivity. We should be demanding more at risk species to be brought in. We can cringe about the hobby all day but either directly or indirectly climate change will finish them in the wild.


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## shaunyboy (Mar 28, 2014)

cement said:


> Are we seriously to beleive that Gavins are the only ones in existence in captivity?
> 
> As an aside,
> How does everyone feel about these animals being crammed into tiny containers and smuggled overseas for huge dollars, and being cross bred with other morelia sub species and jags?
> ...



imo if these became available over here,then it would only be PURE snakes that would be sought after.....

imo the Oenpellis are beautifull and very interesting snakes,with no need to turn into mongrels

i keep both Pure and Morph's in my Morelia collection...

if i lived in Australia i would most likely lean towards keeping Locale Specific Pure Morelia


cheers shaun


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## longqi (Mar 28, 2014)

Tend to agree with shaun on this one cement

expensive 4metre slender snakes of very average colour and possibly difficult to breed have limited appeal
they really only appeal to serious collectors


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 28, 2014)

AvidRep said:


> I'm glad Gavin has been able to get the permit and also found a nice little group of them to establish them into the hobby.
> I would be assuming that they will make it into over seas collections, and most likely in a legal way.
> Without a doubt some of the offspring will be released into the care of Zoo's all around the world.
> Once they start breeding them, some zoos can release excess stock into the hands of collectors with the correct permits etc.
> ...



Most zoos in other countries won't be interested in them - zoos these days are very particular about the breeding projects they undertake, and although they are of considerable interest to private keepers at the moment, I agree with longqi about the sorts of keepers they will appeal to. Personally, I think the keeper response to the availability of RSPs has been disappointing, considering the really interesting history this snake has. However, to most non-specialists RSPs have little visual appeal compared to the lollipop crap the morph and hybrid breeders are producing now. Only if you have an interest in the environment and herp natural history will these drab snakes have any appeal... I'm glad I'm in that group. Whilst there is no doubt that some of these new "bauble" snakes are spectacular, they are still basically battery hens producing a commodity for an artificial market. They are commodities, nothing more.

Jamie


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## butters (Mar 28, 2014)

I agree with you Jamie but at the end of the day they are all commodities. Even the pure locality stuff. 
Once they are in captivity they aren't wildlife anymore.


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## zulu (Mar 29, 2014)

longqi said:


> Tend to agree with shaun on this one cement
> 
> expensive 4metre slender snakes of very average colour and possibly difficult to breed have limited appeal
> they really only appeal to serious collectors



What ive heard is that they have a good temperament for a large python ,the colour is good IMO ,nice pattern ,colour change at night like a dirty big ghost childreni .
They would be a top line exhibit animal ,zoos would find them ticking the boxs IMO


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## MissDangerous (Mar 29, 2014)

I think these snakes look stunning. I also love RSP's, and I'd rather my 'boring' normal Darwin carpet python over all of the designer snakes out there.. I chose my snake because I have a keen interest in Australian snakes, and truly marvel at the amazing natural variety we have here.. Each with unique traits and histories etc.


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## mrkos (Mar 29, 2014)

interesting post and i must say i agree somewhat. Like every other australian python in captivity once they are established and regularly bred in the herp trade say in 10 years time their unique value will be lost and unknown to many buyers who are just after another big snake to show their friends. lets hope they are difficult to breed and remain rare in collections keeping them limited to seasoned old school keeper/breeders


cement said:


> Are we seriously to beleive that Gavins are the only ones in existence in captivity?
> 
> As an aside,
> How does everyone feel about these animals being crammed into tiny containers and smuggled overseas for huge dollars, and being cross bred with other morelia sub species and jags?
> ...


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