# Cat Thread - This is how you do it.



## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Step 1. Either buy or grab a loan cat/dog trap from the council.

Step 2. Set trap using cat food, tuna or chicken

Step 3. Wake up the following morning to find this.



Step 4. call the pound to remove animal.

Step 5. Look forward to a quiet and a good night sleep knowing that possibly hundreds of native animals will be prevented an untimely death.

Enjoy


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Poor pussy


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## Bel03 (Oct 13, 2011)

I wish they sold these traps 2 catch the owners of the cat! They are the ones responsible for keeping their pet inside, & yet its their pet that will probaly suffer!


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## pythrulz (Oct 13, 2011)

Isnt just quicker to get a gun and shoot It ferral cats cause a lot of damage thats a big bugger too
sorry to all you cat lovers


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## Bel03 (Oct 13, 2011)

Im far from being a 'cat lover', but i dont hate them either! That cat definately doesnt look feral.......YES, aswell as other animals, including humans, cats cause terrible damage but that is why it is up to whoever owns them to keep them inside! I just feel sick when i know that cats are hurt just for doing what cats do, when all it takes is a responsible someone to care for them right!


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## Joshua-Tree (Oct 13, 2011)

we have cats running around our house at night all the time... screaming at eachother and fighting.. i never thought of doing this but its crazy out there. ill go outside and theres like 5-6 just ganging up on 1 or just full fighting eachother. thanks for showing me how to fix the situation =)


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## saratoga (Oct 13, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> That cat definately doesnt look feral.......YES



A feral cat is any cat that is not confined to it's owners property.

I've seen lots of feral cats with collars and bells!!!


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Step 1. Either buy or grab a loan cat/dog trap from the council.
> 
> Step 2. Set trap using cat food, tuna or chicken
> 
> ...



Step 6. See a doctor and get rid of the paranoia. You just caught someone's loving pet and your action has done bugger all to save wildlife because there are hundreds other cats and there is only one of you.

Step 7. Give yourself a medal - you're a hero.


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## saximus (Oct 13, 2011)

lol I knew this would get interesting fast


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## D3pro (Oct 13, 2011)

You can't just go and take someone's pet and send them to their death. How does that help anything?


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Drop in the Ocean!...far too late....damage is done....stable doors.......


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Jeffa, if you want to make difference (not that it would make any) or least being seen as doing something meaningful, take your traps and a tin of sardines to the bush and give your skill a run there. Feral and domestic cats may be the same species but they are different just like urban and wild ecology are different.


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## Nighthawk (Oct 13, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Drop in the Ocean!...far too late....damage is done....stable doors.......



Barn doors, gate... cat flap.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Step 6. See a doctor and get rid of the paranoia. You just caught someone's loving pet and your action has done bugger all to save wildlife because there are hundreds other cats and there is only one of you.
> 
> Step 7. Give yourself a medal - you're a hero.



Wow, settle down tiger.

If I can catch a feral cat that will prevent death to innocent aussie animals and reptiles, good on me.
Being an Australian animal photographer Michael, I thought you would appreciate the fact that there will now be more animals to photograph, get your facts right and go mellow with a glass of red or something.

Step 8. reply to stupid wrong statments.


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## Tristan (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm about 1 more late night cat fight away from doing this my self, at least 3 cat owners in my area let them run free.
i like cats, but I'm sick of the buggers pulling bones out of the compost and walking over my car and wost of all fighting at 2-3am out side my bedroom.

i simply want to owners to be more responsible but not knowing who they are i don't have many options.


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Mate, you haven't caught a feral cat - you caught probably your neighbor's pet. Do you really believe that your action have made any difference? 

Step 8. is not making much sense to me but ...... who cares.


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## Chris1 (Oct 13, 2011)

geez, give him a break, hes taking it to the pound where the loving owner has a chance to purchase the cat back and keep it indoors out of harms way,......

if id seem an otto bin full of water in step 4 i'd be opposed.


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Need that to be a man trap, cos we! are public enemy Numero Uno.......I came to grips with the reality, that its all downhill, years ago>>>


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

To all, This animal was trapped on my property that backs onto state forest, flame me all you want but if I prevent the loss of only one animal that is a win.
If anyone has a problem doing what I have done then take a look in the mirror.

Everyone jumps the gun and just assumes, sheesh.


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Tristan said:


> I'm about 1 more late night cat fight away from doing this my self, at least 3 cat owners in my area let them run free.
> i like cats, but I'm sick of the buggers pulling bones out of the compost and walking over my car and wost of all fighting at 2-3am out side my bedroom.
> 
> i simply want to owners to be more responsible but not knowing who they are i don't have many options.



I sympathise with you Tristan. Have visited the cat owners and told them what will happen if they don't get their act together? Sometimes it works, if not, Step 10. Nudge them up a bit.


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

You aint had the cat lover backlash yet.....


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## waruikazi (Oct 13, 2011)

Michael one of the reasons why feral cats are as difficult as they are to control is because they don't eat already dead food. So the majority of cats caught in traps with tinned food as bait are either pets or have not been long in the bush.



Waterrat said:


> Jeffa, if you want to make difference (not that it would make any) or least being seen as doing something meaningful, take your traps and a tin of sardines to the bush and give your skill a run there. Feral and domestic cats may be the same species but they are different just like urban and wild ecology are different.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> You aint had the cat lover backlash yet.....



No, and if they have a problem they can talk to our local council and change the rules and regulations.


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## waruikazi (Oct 13, 2011)

TBH i probably would have just shot the mongrel thing. I've done it to dogs as well as cats.


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Cockney, such idiotic, extremist mentality can send me into a spin. I am a conservationist but I am also a responsible owner of one black "enviro cat".

17 years ago, this guy in Townsville had a reptile collection, including some large scrubbies. He showed me his snakes one day and then he opened up his chest freezer. Amongst some rats and mice were 5 cats, one of them our cat that went missing few weeks earlier. I can't describe here what happened to this guy and his freezer there and then. Had he not relocated the next day, there would have been series part 2.
I may have that glass of red after all.




.... read this Gordo.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 13, 2011)

I think it is great. Sure the difference we make is minimal but anyone getting rid of feral cats in their yard is doing good. I define feral as not on the couch in the lounge room.


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> No, and if they have a problem they can talk to our local council and change the rules and regulations.


Yeh, like the Greenies are trying to take away our rep keeping...


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## saximus (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Cockney, such idiotic, extremist mentality can send me into a spin. I am a conservationist but I am also a responsible owner of one black "enviro cat".
> 
> 17 years ago, this guy in Townsville had a reptile collection, including some large scrubbies. He showed me his snakes one day and then he opened up his chest freezer. Amongst some rats and mice were 5 cats, one of them our cat that went missing few weeks earlier. I can't describe here what happened to this guy and his freezer there and then. Had he not relocated the next day, there would have been series part 2.
> I may have that glass of red after all.
> ...


:O


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Hey Sax, soon as I saw this thread, knew it would go off.....while it lasts


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## waruikazi (Oct 13, 2011)

Michael my house backs onto a floodplain that is used for cattle grazing most of the year. If my dog gets out there he will be shot, i see the ringers, coppers and the bored trigger happy hillbillies out there at least once a week killing the dogs that are out there without their owners. 

I know what will happen to him if he gets out, so i make sure he doesn't get out. You should assume the same thing will happen to your pets if they get out of your yard.

I do sympathise with seeing your pet in someone's feezer though. It would have been a pretty rotten thing to hapen.


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## Wally (Oct 13, 2011)

It's only Thursday..........


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> It's only Thursday..........


Yeh but Jupiter is in conjunction with Uranus...


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 13, 2011)

My ferals to do list is .
Cats
Foxes
Wild pigs 
Toads 
All humanly killed by a peace of lead to the vitals .
GOOO GET THEM :lol:


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Gordo, that's a different situation, as you said you live in a natural environment where dogs and cats don't belong. I don't know where Jaffa lives but I dare to think in some suburb. The cat in his trap looks nothing like a feral. There are people on this planet (some in Jaffa's suburb) that keep cats for company and to many of them it's a tragedy to loose their beloved pet of many years. I don't want to sound soft-hearted but to post a recipe on APS how to get rid of a cat, which will invariably hurt someone is a moronic act. Nothing smart or brave about it. Sorry.


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> My ferals to do list is .
> Cats
> Foxes
> Wild pigs
> ...


Hey JF,out of that lot, the only ferals we have half a chance of ridding is pigs..


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 13, 2011)

Good I hate pigs.


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## longqi (Oct 13, 2011)

When I was in Port Stephens I had a few acres
Lots of neighbourhood and feral cats and dogs and few native animals
I fenced it well and prohibited cats or dogs under any circumstances

I started by trapping and returning pets
But that was just ignored so I shot them after 2 written warnings
Took 2 years and that place was the equivalent of any native animal park in NSW
Echidnas goannas snakes roos koalas possums black cockatoos and even phasogales?? 
Schools would drop in to see native animals in natural surroundings

The native animal damage that even pet cats can do almost equals mans
So I have zero sympathy for cat owners who let them roam


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## Wally (Oct 13, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Yeh but Jupiter is in conjunction with Uranus...



Topical ointment perhaps?


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## Ramsayi (Oct 13, 2011)

Good on you Jeffa.If it's in your yard get it removed.I hate the fact that some cat owners allow them to roam and have no sympathy for them, if they have to go pay a fine to get them back from the pound.


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Gee, there is so much bush logic and wisdom in some of these posts.
Good on ya Jaffa, good on ya Rams, good on ya ....... pat your selves on the shoulder, the world will be grateful to you for your radical attitudes. Join the Greens, Bob will pet you on the shoulder too.

I getter go now.


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## nagini-baby (Oct 13, 2011)

We have been trying this for months... Its not working!!!,


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

nagini-baby said:


> We have been trying this for months... Its not working!!!,


Alas! It never will


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## kawasakirider (Oct 13, 2011)

My landlords wife is cruel and sadistic. You should see her eyes light up when she talks about trapping dogs and cats for them to be put down. She's pretty much given me orders that for each animal that comes into the yard, a trap must be set. 

I said to her that I wasn't really comfortable sending pets off to the pound to be put down, and she responded with something along the lines of how good it is to send female dogs off to the pound to be knocked, so they don't breed. How the hell would she know if it was desexed or not?

We've had a Labrador come here from down the road, my GF and I hid it until we found the owners. I can't believe people could seriously send someones pet to meet its maker. I can't believe that people would stand around waiting for collared dogs without owners to shoot, either. That's just horrible.

I think Longqis method is the best (although I probably would only bluff and not end up shooting it). It's not the animals fault.

This is coming from someone who really doesn't like cats, by the way. I'll give the odd one a pat, but they aren't my cup of tea at all. Would never dream of hurting one, though.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Gordo, that's a different situation, as you said you live in a natural environment where dogs and cats don't belong. I don't know where Jaffa lives but I dare to think in some suburb. The cat in his trap looks nothing like a feral. There are people on this planet (some in Jaffa's suburb) that keep cats for company and to many of them it's a tragedy to loose their beloved pet of many years. I don't want to sound soft-hearted but to post a recipe on APS how to get rid of a cat, which will invariably hurt someone is a moronic act. Nothing smart or brave about it. Sorry.



Michael, if it appears to you that I think myself a hero than you are wrong.
What I have started this thread is to show people how easy and humane it is to rid feral and unwanted animals. All feral cats that are not considered pets are to be euthanised, and pets are to be held at the local pound for 3 days where owners of lost pets can pay a fee and claim them.

I respect and can sypathise with you about the pet in the freezer incident that would of caused alot of grief.

I dont appreciate the dorogatory comments aimed at me regarding how I have handled the situation in doing the right thing according to our local law.
I have agreat deal of respect for you waterrat but maybe less aggresive words would be more suitable.

Peace.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 13, 2011)

So tell us Waterrat do you condone cat owners allowing their pet cats to roam the neighbourhood or not see anything wrong with that?

You forgot to single out longqi as well.


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## Khagan (Oct 13, 2011)

I don't get the whole fuss. Jeffa is doing the right thing, and the most humane solution. I'm a cat owner myself, but when cats are let roam and are disturbing people with fighting and crapping and peeing and killing and what not on YOUR PROPERTY, there has to be SOME way to control this if the owners aren't.

The cat trap is the best solution, many people would do much more sinister methods.. Personally i'd rather my cat trapped than injured in some way or poisoned or something.


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## Chris1 (Oct 13, 2011)

i have a feeling if one of my pythons escaped the aviary and made it to the neighbours property, they wouldnt care about how much i love my snakes and wouldnt even give me a chance to retrieve it from the pound,..
....actually, i have no doubt id never see my belooved pets again if i didnt keep them within my property,....

shouldnt that care for someone elses feelings go both ways??


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Has anyone ever smelled a house, where a cat Is a prisoner.......course they let them out!


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## kawasakirider (Oct 13, 2011)

cockney_red said:


> has anyone ever smelled a house, where a cat is a prisoner.......course they let them out!



haha


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## Ramsayi (Oct 13, 2011)

Contrary to what some seem to think native animals actually live in the suburbs.It's difficult enough for them to try and eke out an existance under those circumstances without the added pressure of cats being allowed to roam by irresponsible owners.


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## brisbaneboy (Oct 13, 2011)

i agree with jeffa he was doing the right thing i have 2 dogs one who is not suited to be around other animals except dogs and humans she is the nicest dog ever tho... i told my next door neighbors there cat was in my yard and they should keep inside i told them three times then caught there cat and took it to the pound two month later they had another cat again stirring the dogs. another 2 time i told them but before i could catch it my dog did she killed it and then they complained she is now labeled a dangerous dog that was 2 1/2 years ago i have since removed three more cats of theirs from my yard to the pound...


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Only solution to cats is outlawing them....and thats gonna happen!!!


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## ramzee86 (Oct 13, 2011)

This is crazy, During some storms about two weeks ago my beloved young cat ran-away... if i find out someone has sent him to be put down simply because he is roaming i will be so extremely dissapointed and depressed. I didnt think people still do this. i am hoping and praying every day for a return, i dont really know what to do to find him.


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## kawasakirider (Oct 13, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> This is crazy, During some storms about two weeks ago my beloved young cat ran-away... if i find out someone has sent him to be put down simply because he is roaming i will be so extremely dissapointed and depressed. I didnt think people still do this. i am hoping and praying every day for a return, i dont really know what to do to find him.



That sucks mate. Have you checked the pounds, and was he microchipped?

If an animal is microchipped and turned into the pound, is it up to the owners to ring the pound to see if it's there, or do the pound check and ring the owners?


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 13, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Hey JF,out of that lot, the only ferals we have half a chance of ridding is pigs..



Thats very true , but if you have a riffle handy on outings its always good to take that opertunity to put down a few feral cats ,pigs,foxes etc .


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## ramzee86 (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah, i dont know of any Cat-pound's i know of a local dog pound... and depressingly enough i was going to get him microchipped that week!


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Good points people, This thread was not intended to be a cat hating thread, but a thread to encourage resposible pet ownership. This goes for all animals including dogs and other pets. Us being reptile lovers have a hard part to play in hopefully educating the public about responsibility, including proper housing techniques, so why does this not count for all pets? Ferals are one thing but since this topic has moved on to beloved pets, it would be hypocritical saying some species should be exempt. And if a owner needs to pay a fine to get there pet back then hopefully they get the message and become responsible pet owners, if not then more trips to the pound for me.

Peace


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

Pounds, are for cats also


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## Bel03 (Oct 13, 2011)

Well done APS members! This has been such a 'tame' thread compared to where i thought it might head! Good to see we are sticking to the rules!  
As for letting cats outside, mine have a cat run, & a little free time, in my yard with me there. (& my house doesnt smell ) I also have problems with my neighbours cats, they killed a water dragon a few weeks back & a green tree snake too  I take the cats back to them, & let them know to watch them when they are out or else someone may just trap or kill them. I could never hurt them myself, they are just doing what they are born to do! As we do, we are born to live in houses, can i trap a builder who clears trees to do what he is meant to do?


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## kawasakirider (Oct 13, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> can i trap a builder who clears trees to do what he is meant to do?



If you've got a carton of New and a net, then I dare say you could.


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 13, 2011)

XXXX would catch more banana bender builders...


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## Bel03 (Oct 13, 2011)

If ive got 2 cartons do i still need a net? :lol:

& both my dad & partner drink new also, its always around!


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## kawasakirider (Oct 13, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> If ive got 2 cartons do i still need a net? :lol:



Chuck in a few JD doubles and you wouldn't need a net, just a forklift to move him to the pound.


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## chase77 (Oct 13, 2011)

I live in the suburbs, and recently my step father who is an avid bird watcher saw or heard 40 native species from my back yard. Given that a cat could get any of them, I don't see the problem here. Keep your cat inside or in a run. If i save 5 birds or animals a night by getting rid of a cat, I will call myself a hero.


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## Darlyn (Oct 13, 2011)

It's time that compulsory desexing was bought in for all cats and dogs that are domestic pets.
That would certainly be a start to cutting down on unwanted pets.
If people kept their cats inside they would never be mistaken as a feral one and there would be no heartbreak.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

In our local law, all cats need to be held on the property in which the owners live 24/7, this may mean an indoor cat, or a cat that has a run and will not roam onto other properties. If a cat or dog is bought to the pound then a fee will imply for exchange for the pet and an additional fee for any unregistered animals.
Not sure if this is state wide, Australia wide etc. But I encourage any pet being cat or dog that falls under this category to cage and at the end of the day help some native wildlife. BTW, I have a fox terrier and if it escaped the yard (touch wood) and ended up at the pound then I would appreciate the fact that someone were responsible and dropped it off here.


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## LucifersJester (Oct 13, 2011)

I hope this isn't too off topic but... In NSW and other states and territories don't cats and dogs have mandatory micro chipping laws? (I don't know - just asking)

In the ACT they do, and it seems to work well. If this happened (ie: someone's animal got trapped somewhere where they shouldn't be) it's quite easy for the owners to be notified as the animal gets scanned on arrival at the pound (or RSPCA) and the owners are contacted... (details being in the microchip)

If there is no chip then it might be re-homed or sent on a 'green-dream-ride' to never never land...


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## Colin (Oct 13, 2011)

when I used to live out at kenhurst in sydney on 5 acres that backed onto a reserve my idiot next door neighbour invited me over and proudly displayed some dead native birds and lizards his domestic cat caught and left at their back step.. he told me his cat did that all the time every week.. he didnt want to lock the cat up in a cat run either.. so the next day when he was at work I shot his beloved moggy and buried it down the back.. domestic cats definitely dont belong in semi rural or rural environments where they are allowed to run free and kill whatever wildlife they like in my opinion.. 

I dont like killing animals or being cruel but this cat was killing native fauna daily just for "sport" and just had to go..


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Colin, I agree with you, domestic cats don't belong in the bush. 
I don't like feral cats, have shot many of them in the past but why on Earth did some people mention feral cats in this thread? The cat in Jaffa's trap is a well fed and groomed domestic cat, someone's pat. If any of you think simply "cat is a cat" and you treat pet cats as ferals, then you are a cat hater and bloody redneck.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Colin, I agree with you, domestic cats don't belong in the bush.
> I don't like feral cats, have shot many of them in the past but why on Earth did some people mention feral cats in this thread? The cat in Jaffa's trap is a well fed and groomed domestic cat, someone's pat. If any of you think simply "cat is a cat" and you treat pet cats as ferals, then you are a cat hater and bloody redneck.


you still dont get it do you!
Read the threads, if you dont believe that this thread is about poor ownership and responsibility of a pet then you are off on your own tangent. Again we back onto state forest where native wildlife should roam wether it is domestic or feral (the pound thinks so). If you need me to take some pics of the forest out the back to prove that I am speaking the truth fine, and a question how much poor ownership would a pet take before it turns into a true feral?
You seem very responsible with the responsibility and housing of your GTPs, why is this any different?


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## Red-Ink (Oct 13, 2011)

I own a cat and I'm all for eradicating feral cats... I'm all for trapping nuissance cats.

There's only a few things missing in the steps I think (were up to step 8 I think) so....

9) If you trap a "domestic" cat i.e. somebodies pet, get it checked for a microchip.

10) Go and face the owner once identification is made and say "I trapped your beloved pet, and sent it to the pound".

11) If there's no chip leave your name and address at the pound just in case the owner does go there and claim their pet, so at least they can have a "friendly" chat with you...

I don't let my cat out it's an indoor cat and in fact is afraid of the outside world, knock on wood that if it ever gets out and trapped by somebody I hope they have enough balls to at least let me know.


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## cypptrkk90 (Oct 13, 2011)

i think its time for a group hug


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

cypptrkk90 said:


> i think its time for a group hug



All for it if we are on the same page about resposible pet ownership.


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2011)

Eh, no I don't get it. There is two of us now, watch out!


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Eh, no I don't get it. There is two of us now, watch out!



No probs here mate, good to see its on your property.


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## Colin (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Colin, I agree with you, domestic cats don't belong in the bush.
> I don't like feral cats, have shot many of them in the past but why on Earth did some people mention feral cats in this thread? The cat in Jaffa's trap is a well fed and groomed domestic cat, someone's pat. If any of you think simply "cat is a cat" and you treat pet cats as ferals, then you are a cat hater and bloody redneck.



yes michael if the bloke had his cat in a cat run through the day and inside at night I dont have a problem with cats. I understand cat owners love their animals as much as we love our reptiles and that should be respected. but he didnt want to lock the cat up because it liked to roam and "catch things" and rattled off a list of birds and reptiles his cat regularly caught and killed and thats what led to my actions.. as I said I hate killing anything and it has to be a situation like that to get me to do so. this one was killing native wrens, honeyeaters, small beardies and water dragons, heaps of skinks, legless lizards, marsh snakes, whip snakes, baby rbbs, geckos etc on a weekly basis.. and to do nothing about it was I felt worse than the action I took.


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## cement (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Colin, I agree with you, domestic cats don't belong in the bush.
> I don't like feral cats, have shot many of them in the past but why on Earth did some people mention feral cats in this thread? The cat in Jaffa's trap is a well fed and groomed domestic cat, someone's pat. If any of you think simply "cat is a cat" and you treat pet cats as ferals, then you are a cat hater and bloody redneck.



What a load of BS! I seriously thought you had more brains mate!
If you seriously think that a well groomed and owned cat isn't a threat to wildlife then your a bloody cat lover and no conservationist at all. 

I live in a semi rural area which has a lot of suburbia as well IE the Central Coast of NSW, yes Erina, Terrigal, Gosford etc and we are constanly injecting reptiles with baytril because of your beloved PET cats.
You are off the richter! Just a fortnight ago , i had two EWD's same cat same property ( yes I was there working on the property, I personally took the lizards off the cat both times with the owner) one survived, one died from nothing more then a tooth puncture. Don't get me started on the survey we were doing on ringtailed possums, that we gave up on, because 80% of the babies were killed by cats, compared to 5% by snakes.

Responsible cat ownership is something that just doesn't happen. Its more a case of see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil from cat people.

Ok maybe 1% are responsible. If yours ended up in someone else freezer i rest my case.


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## Spider178 (Oct 13, 2011)

So if it is ok to get a cat destroyed because it has wandered onto another property and may kill a bird or reptile does that mean it is also ok to destroy a snake that has escaped its enclosure and might bite a child?


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## jack (Oct 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> If any of you think simply "cat is a cat" and you treat pet cats as ferals, then you are a cat hater and bloody redneck.



guilty as charged


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Spider178 said:


> So if it is ok to get a cat destroyed because it has wandered onto another property and may kill a bird or reptile does that mean it is also ok to destroy a snake that has escaped its enclosure and might bite a child?



Hey Spider, as mentioned before and obviously will need to continue to do so, if a cat or dog gets trapped and taken to the pound then it usually has at least 3 days for it to be collected with a fee. About the snake thing, responsible ownership, most of the time an escaped pet snake will result in the shovel. What woul you prefer the pound and a second chance or the shovel for either species?


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## Colin (Oct 13, 2011)

yes like this blokes cat that I described above it seems in their predatory nature to want to hunt and kill things usually out of instinct.. I think its responsible to have a decent sized cat run for them to prevent this and when your home probably have the cat inside the house. there would be minimal impact on wildlife if cats were housed a little differently.. but when I was growing up no one ever heard of a "cat run" etc and I think education is the key to changing a communities outlook on these issues. do any wildlife groups ever go to cat societies or cat groups meetings? (I assume they have clubs or socities like we have herp societies) to educate the cat owners of these issues and give them a solution may change things a little to start and after a while maybe change things a lot.. if wildlife groups dont do presentations to cat societies to alert them of these issues maybe they should.


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## Spider178 (Oct 13, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Hey Spider, as mentioned before and obviously will need to continue to do so, if a cat or dog gets trapped and taken to the pound then it usually has at least 3 days for it to be collected with a fee. About the snake thing, responsible ownership, most of the time an escaped pet snake will result in the shovel. What woul you prefer the pound and a second chance or the shovel for either species?



I totally agree with what you have done re the cage, we have a cat who is an inside cat but has escaped a couple of times through it's devious ways. We would do anything to get him back as we would with any of our animals that may have gone missing. 
I was making reference more to the few that have the attitude that the only good cat is a dead one, not unlike those that have the same attitude with snakes.


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## cement (Oct 13, 2011)

"if wildlife groups dont do presentations to cat societies to alert them of these issues maybe they should."

In theory that's a good idea.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Colin said:


> yes like this blokes cat that I described above it seems in their predatory nature to want to hunt and kill things usually out of instinct.. I think its responsible to have a decent sized cat run for them to prevent this and when your home probably have the cat inside the house. there would be minimal impact on wildlife if cats were housed a little differently.. but when I was growing up no one ever heard of a "cat run" etc and I think education is the key to changing a communities outlook on these issues. do any wildlife groups ever go to cat societies or cat groups meetings? (I assume they have clubs or socities like we have herp societies) to educate the cat owners of these issues and give them a solution may change things a little to start and after a while maybe change things a lot.. if wildlife groups dont do presentations to cat societies to alert them of these issues maybe they should.


Great idea Colin, but sometimes the owner of a cat or dog find it very offensive that their little Puss or princess could be as precious as they are have a hard time trying to get over the fact that their pet is killing wildlife.
I agree that there should be a program where native wildlife needs all the help it can get and little actions can and especially wording can at the end of the day help our native wildlife. I use to have Little breeding pair of sunbirds that would welcome my afternoon visit home from work. Why should I not be able to have that privledge again?



Spider178 said:


> I totally agree with what you have done re the cage, we have a cat who is an inside cat but has escaped a couple of times through it's devious ways. We would do anything to get him back as we would with any of our animals that may have gone missing.
> I was making reference more to the few that have the attitude that the only good cat is a dead one, not unlike those that have the same attitude with snakes.


My thoughts are with you, I hope you get you pet back.
I do not condone or appreciate that a pet that escapes ones premesis is open to "Laws at their own expense" call the pound and I hope you get your pet back. Things happen and we as nature lovers appreciate the steps people take to keep all animals safe.


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## Spider178 (Oct 13, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> My thoughts are with you, I hope you get you pet back.
> I do not condone or appreciate that a pet that escapes ones premesis is open to "Laws at their own expense" call the pound and I hope you get your pet back. Things happen and we as nature lovers appreciate the steps people take to keep all animals safe.



Oops I stuffed that one, (been a long day) the cat has come back after an hour or so each time but yes I would be on to the pound, etc. He is microchipped and has a tag with phone number, etc on it so I would hope that if he ever went missing someone would be nice enough to do the right thing.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Spider178 said:


> Oops I stuffed that one, (been a long day) the cat has come back after an hour or so each time but yes I would be on to the pound, etc. He is microchipped and has a tag with phone number, etc on it so I would hope that if he ever went missing someone would be nice enough to do the right thing.


Just keep it on the property so it does not have to go to the pounds, simple! post some pics of reptiles or animals that move into the area due to lack of pet preditation. Cant wait


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## ramzee86 (Oct 13, 2011)

First off, i just want to say, i think Killing any animal with no real intention is stupid and disgusting. 
I have no idea why some people still kill every cane toad, cat, fox, rabbit they see when clearly they have a well enough established population that no matter how many we kill at this stage they will still exist here, whether we like it or not... 
Its our fault they're here in the first place so we have to deal with the consequences... Its got to a stage thats beyod return, so to me killing a cane toad is just as bad as killing a Green tee frog, its not justified, in the long run it changing near-to nothing, and your killing an innocent animal. 

So if i found out that someone killed our beloved family cat that fled in bad weather, due to ignorance, i'd be revolted and disgusted.
Humane Euthanisation to a pest species (who isn't a family pet -.-) is fine, and is a huge difference to running something over or shooting it.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

totally agree ramzee, this thread has nothing to do with killiing an animal that is a pet outright unless it is an escaped feral proven. Responsible pet ownership, anything else start a new thread.


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## Colin (Oct 13, 2011)

cement said:


> "if wildlife groups dont do presentations to cat societies to alert them of these issues maybe they should."
> 
> In theory that's a good idea.



yeah some thought would need to go into it and the presenter would need to be a diplomatic person. maybe to show them some wildlife cute small dragons etc and explain the problems.. to give cat owners some info how to make the cat runs and try to encourage them to make them may be something the cat societies would be willing to take on board. once you change the attitude of these groups they would encourage their members and new members to follow suit. its a matter of getting the ball rolling and having them take it up and carry on with it. 

most people love our native wildlife so working together with cat owners for a common goal would be preferable to just hating cats and cat owners. it doesnt make us any better than the people who say " a dead snake is a good snake" in some ways.

it may not change many attitudes but no one knows till its tried I guess. If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem.


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 13, 2011)

so to me killing a cane toad is just as bad as killing a Green tee frog

errr....ummmm....not so.....obviously you don't live in Queensland


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## snakeluvver (Oct 13, 2011)

So you trap what is probably a neighbours pet... then post about it on a public forum?
Correct me if Im wrong, but thats a visit from the RSPCA waiting to happen.

Anyway, to all the redneck cat killers out there, just imagine that the owner may be a young child. Imagine how upset they'd be if they knew you took their beloved pet, I used to own cats and I know if someone killed my cat I would be mortified, and furious at the person.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Well said colin, we can all proactivly get things moving in the right direction if common sense and tact are involved, we all want to be able to take pics of undamaged animals and pics involving species in our own backyard.
Well done to everyone and my point is that examples can be made and learned to the wellfare of our native and pets to co exist to both our benefits. 
It all starts with you.

Read the posts from the begining or is that to hard snakelover.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 13, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> So you trap what is probably a neighbours pet... then post about it on a public forum?
> Correct me if Im wrong, but thats a visit from the RSPCA waiting to happen.
> 
> Anyway, to all the redneck cat killers out there, just imagine that the owner may be a young child. Imagine how upset they'd be if they knew you took their beloved pet, I used to own cats and I know if someone killed my cat I would be mortified, and furious at the person.



You are corrected....It is quite legal to trap a cat on your property,pet or not.Councils even supply you with a trap to do so.


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## Jeffa (Oct 13, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> You are corrected....It is quite legal to trap a cat on your property,pet or not.Councils even supply you with a trap to do so.



Ramsayi is this across the NSW board or does it go futher? I know it is in my area (central Qld) but not to sure if it is a state wide, Aussie wide legislation?


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## Ramsayi (Oct 13, 2011)

Not sure about all councils in NSW but for sure about two whos districts I have lived in. I have had traps supplied by the local council.Rangers drop them off to you and come collect them once the traps get an occupant.


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## snakeluvver (Oct 13, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> You are corrected....It is quite legal to trap a cat on your property,pet or not.Councils even supply you with a trap to do so.


Interesting.


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## Morgwynn (Oct 13, 2011)

Colin said:


> do any wildlife groups ever go to cat societies or cat groups meetings? (I assume they have clubs or socities like we have herp societies) to educate the cat owners of these issues and give them a solution may change things a little to start and after a while maybe change things a lot.. if wildlife groups dont do presentations to cat societies to alert them of these issues maybe they should.



Actually Colin, I think the real problem with this idea is that most of the sort of people who care enough about cats to go to meetings/shows etc are the sort of people who are too passionate about their pampered pets to let them roam unsupervised. The average person doesn't care enough about cats to go to those sorts of meetings, and those are the same people who think it's only natural for cats to be outside and hunting.

If my neighbour's cat ever gets into my yard and bothers my birds and possums, I'd probably be looking at trapping it and taking it to the pound/rspca too. As much as I wouldn't want to deprive my neighbour's of their pet, we have told them to keep him from roaming and they don't listen.


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## Colin (Oct 13, 2011)

Morgwynn said:


> Actually Colin, I think the real problem with this idea is that most of the sort of people who care enough about cats to go to meetings/shows etc are the sort of people who are too passionate about their pampered pets to let them roam unsupervised. The average person doesn't care enough about cats to go to those sorts of meetings, and those are the same people who think it's only natural for cats to be outside and hunting.



yes your probably right there.. still it would be good if these people promoted responsible keeping to their members amd encouraged cat runs.. they may even do this?


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## hypochondroac (Oct 13, 2011)

I feel sorry for the animals in question that get destroyed because of ignorant neglectful owners but educating somebody who has had an outside cat all their life is as easy as getting blood from a stone. 

Most of the kind of people that allow their cats to roam get defensive, rude or they shrug it off - Even if you go about it in a calm kind way. Alot of them don't give a crap, they can't see what their cats do so it never really happens and unless their cat gets seriously injured then there is no point in putting time, money and effort into building a cat run.. After all the reason alot of people get a cat in the first place is because they're so 'independent'.

Anybody who doesn't really care where their animals are day or night needs a wake up call. It's pure chance your cat doesn't get hit by a car, trapped or in some way injured through out it's life so i have to agree that if a cat is in your yard you have every right to trap it.


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## mungus (Oct 13, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> To all, This animal was trapped on my property that backs onto state forest, flame me all you want but if I prevent the loss of only one animal that is a win.
> If anyone has a problem doing what I have done then take a look in the mirror.
> 
> Everyone jumps the gun and just assumes, sheesh.



Property.......state forest.......surely u would let a responsible bow hunter on your place for a spot of hunting ?


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## longqi (Oct 13, 2011)

The only real way to show the damage cats have done and continue to do
is to fence off an area with cat proof fence
I had 47 acres well fenced and 23 acres that was open to any predators
Was mixed land being mostly on sand but some good old forest in the fenced section with 2 good elevations
I put a koala ladder between two gums to give them access over the top on each side
That section was like the Garden of Eden after 3 years

The other 23 acres was too tough to fence effectively and remained pretty devoid of life in comparison


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## mungus (Oct 13, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> No probs here mate, good to see its on your property.



No offence................but if i saw that cat in the native bush, it would be bowshot if i could get close enough.
I have had cats and i do like them, but thats no excuse for allowing them to do what they do best and thats hunt !!


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## cement (Oct 13, 2011)

It is my personal experience, that 100% of cat owners that i have met, through being called out by them to pick up an injured or dead reptile, see it as "oh well, poor reptile."

They understand that their cat has just injured or killed something, that is why they ring us, they feel bad about it.That and the fact that they are usually to scared to touch the reptile and so they call on someone else.
But they have absolutely no idea about ecology or how native animals play a role in the ecosystem. In this regard they are ignorant. There are no laws regarding cats as far as how to keep them goes. (local council, here anyway) only have a one page "guide' on how to be "responsible", on their website that no-one looks at anyway.

It is quite mainstream to be fearful of any lizard bigger then a water skink, and very mainstream to be fearful of snakes, even the small elapids, so there is a huge problem just getting these people to even feel compassion for these animals.
There is no point being confrontational to the cat owner at these call outs. However it makes you feel. The owners will listen and agree, but will do nothing more. They have called you, you came and sorted the poor reptile, and the sooner you are gone the sooner they can start to feel better.
I have been doing this a long time and it is seriously like banging your head against a brick wall. Hoping to educate cat owners is the same as hoping to educate people about snakes. It won't be happening any time soon. I seriously doubt that i will ever see an improvement in the way MOST people look after their cats in my lifetime.
One of the worst cases (for me anyway) was being called to persons house who's cat just dragged in a YFWS and the person was an ex member of the same wildlife organisation as me, and she had four cats , all out, and as i was leaving a fifth came back into the yard from across the other side of the railway lines. Here is an educated person (she knew exactly how to treat the snake) still doing nothing about her cats.
I don't blame the cats, I blame the people who own them. But you can't shoot the people!

But if there are cat people here and who are fair dinkum, lets see who here does the right thing.

How many cat owners on here or who will read this thread, keep their cats in cages, or , never let their cats out of the house??

Cats will hunt and kill just as often by day as they will at night, so there is no excuse for only locking a cat up at night.
The only responsible manner in which to keep a cat is caged. The cage can be as big as you like but it must not be able to get out. 
Don't believe that just because you don't see your cat kill wildlife that it doesn't happen, because a lot of my call outs are first timers, where the owners have never thought the cat would do it, and were shocked and horrified.

Cats are so mainstream that keeping them caged is considered offensive to many people. This is a thought pattern that cat owners have to accept and learn to see the other side, another perspective. 
Local councils and NPWS should push this more, not leave it up to wildlife organisations, we are not cops or rangers, we just clean up the mess. If NPWS rangers went to cat groups... then they might take notice especially if fines were on offer. But what is the point, there is no law to say how cats should be kept. So you can't say it,....do you see?


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## hypochondroac (Oct 13, 2011)

As an example - I know somebody who recently ran over their own cat because it was sitting in their drive way. Two costly operations later and this cat still gets to sit on the drive way.


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## RickLeekong (Oct 13, 2011)

as far as im concerned, feral animals should be destroyed on sight, i know there alive but they are playing havoc with our delicate natives and there environments, i honestly don't give a ****, but they should be humanely destroyed without agony and pain. If it were someones pet then you have no right to do so, because its somebody's property and loved pet, there is a difference.


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## Darlyn (Oct 13, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> Anyway, to all the redneck cat killers out there, just imagine that the owner may be a young child. Imagine how upset they'd be if they knew you took their beloved pet, I used to own cats and I know if someone killed my cat I would be mortified, and furious at the person.



Just imagine the lizards, skinks, birds parents who are also upset at their offspring be tortured to death.



> I have no idea why some people still kill every cane toad, cat, fox, rabbit they see when clearly they have a well enough established population that no matter how many we kill at this stage they will still exist here




Interesting course of action "blah just leave it be, it's happened now"


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## FAY (Oct 13, 2011)

Ummmm CATS
I had a cat for all it's life. I lived in an apartment. It had never been outside.

When we moved here, we had no intention of getting a dog. But guess what?
Every neighbour had a dog, so all the neighbourhood cats would congregate in OUR yard. They would pee all around the cars.Leave cat poo everywhere and get into screaming matches in the middle of the night on the verandah right outside our bedroom. SO we had no choice but to get a dog. No more cats after that.

Some cat owners, think it is their god given right to let their animals wander. They would be the type that if pussy goes missing, they would not give a rat's pertuzzi.
Let's face it, if they actually gave a rats....they would not let their animal wander, to be killed by dogs or get run over and any other fate they may come in contact with.
They just go out and get another one. The cat is just disposal.
My 2 cents worth.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Oct 13, 2011)

oh i lovvve cat threads.Intersting if you go on youtube they wont show vids of cats being killed,but there many of snakes actually being put to death by cats,people etc


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## Jeannine (Oct 13, 2011)

*MAN is responsible for MORE environmental destruction and causing native animal extinction then any 'feral cat' alive on the planet

three words..........palm oil plantations

one word..........primates

MAN also rips out native trees and vegetation to make way for houses for more humans thus causing extinction of more native animals then a hundred cats that could move into those new houses could possibly cause but hey it makes people feel good to lay all the blame on cats
*


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 14, 2011)

I love how humans sit in there house consuming goods that are produced and transported in a manner that causes vast amounts of environmental damage and then have the nerve to blame animals for all the destruction. Honestly, if you really care about the wildlife, give up your house, go bush and take only what you need otherwise you are a way bigger problem than any feral animal, all of which were ironically introduced by humans.


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## longqi (Oct 14, 2011)

^^^^
Totally agree that man is the major environmental destroyer

BUT
Palm Oil Plantations in Indonesia now have to get an EIS done before jungle can be cleared
So there is some hope for the future there
Most primates are Cites listed and huge amounts of money are being spent on them and protecting their habitat in both Africa and Asia
So there is virtually zero chance of any primates becoming extinct
Except of course for the smaller types such as the Tarsus [sic] which is just the right size for a cat to enjoy playing with
But primates are not a usual target for any feral cat
Primate protection/rescue has to be one of the biggest rorts on Earth

To give some indication of the damage feral cats can do you just have to look at NZ
40 species of flightless birds extinct since the introduction of cats and humans
The reason there were so many flightless species is because there were no natural predators of non-avian species

Being totally honest maybe 16 of those species were also victims of habitat destruction as they lived in areas where people settled
But the others lived in what is still fairly pristine country

American researchers released 2 cats into what had been a cat free area
The cameras attached to their collars recorded an average of 28 kills per day for one and 53 per day for the other
By far the majority of these were various insects and small lizards or frogs etc
Most were not eaten

Feral Cats are the animal kingdoms equivalent of man
Predators without limits


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## Nighthawk (Oct 14, 2011)

So than we are agreed that two things need to happen here.
One: There need to be laws in place for cat owners. It is illegal to allow a dog to roam unattended, it should be the same for domestic cats. Cats *should* be registered and all possible steps taken to control their movements, desexed if domestic (with appropriate aid given to those who can't afford it, as much as I see this action as an enabling of people who ultimately cannot afford a pet and shouldn't get one, one must face the fact that people who shouldn't have animals get them every day and stopping this is like nailing jelly to a wall). People need licenses for most pets, cats should not be expempt; particularly considering the damage they can cause. One booklet or webpage on 'recommended' keeping methods is not cutting it; there needs to be an actual law and standard of care, with appropriate prosecution if these standards are not met.
Two: With regards to local/national fauna there needs to be an education standard in place, with special focus on what threats common domestic pets can potentiall pose if not housed properly. It astounds me that in a country as rich in fauna as Australia is, this has not been done. Growing up in New Zealand we were constantly taken out on day trips and camps, educated about local fauna, survival, what threats pets could pose, what we could,should or must do in the bush either in emergency situations or when taking a leisurely trip. Granted it's a lot more complicated than 'stay warm, don't move, suck on supplejack for moisture' here, but it's also a lot more dangerous and that alone should call for educating children on basic survival methods and the damage one can cause without even knowing it. Start young.
Trapping is not going to do much, education and laws will. I like Lonqui's method; warning, action, consequence. 
So what are we going to do about it? SHOULD we bicker amongst ourselves, argue the best method to trap or control the problem as it occurs, or should we work toward securing the future? Surely there are enough people, online, at herp meetings around Australia, even general public who, while not having a personal interest in reptiles, have an interest in maintaining Australia's unique fauna and natural habitats, to flood local goverments with a call for real steps towards this aim?
Emails, petitions, letters, public meetings to raise awareness... get it in the public eye, get people interested and you may make a real difference. Dealing with the problem piecemeal does little to stem the flow of ignorance.


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 14, 2011)

Trapping does indeed make a difference if consistantly done. For an example in a one year period we trapped and had put down 25 cats, this season we have only seen one and trapped none ( I am sure there a few more than one getting around still ). The trap is only set up in my front yard but clearly it has made a big difference to the overall numbers roaming our street. 
We are now starting to see far more lizards and even the occasional wild snake in our yard and believe or not a young quoll on one occasion ( would have loved know where that came from ) . I certainly don't like killing cats ( infact I really hate it ) and have no doubt I have killed domestic pets among the total but unfortunately we see no other alternative. At least I now no longer have turtles pawed out of the pond and aren't finding chewed on bearded dragons and blue tongues.
Personally I think what the first poster did was a good move as one would expect the owner would have taken the matter more seriously ( assuming of course council found who that was ).
I think it would be a proper however to warn the local neighbours that you indeed to set traps before doing so. One so they can take preventative action or two, know where their cat might be should it go missing. In our case we didn't, but our street has alot of drunken early settlers who don't even look after their pets in the first place


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## Colin (Oct 14, 2011)

hypochondroac said:


> I feel sorry for the animals in question that get destroyed because of ignorant neglectful owners but educating somebody who has had an outside cat all their life is as easy as getting blood from a stone.





cement said:


> Cats are so mainstream that keeping them caged is considered offensive to many people. This is a thought pattern that cat owners have to accept and learn to see the other side, another perspective.
> Local councils and NPWS should push this more, not leave it up to wildlife organisations, we are not cops or rangers, we just clean up the mess. If NPWS rangers went to cat groups... then they might take notice especially if fines were on offer. But what is the point, there is no law to say how cats should be kept. So you can't say it,....do you see?



good post cement.. yes it would be much better to have NPWS rangers going to cat groups to try and educate them. and yes hypochonroac it wont be easy.. but I think its a move in the right direction. It wont happen overnight and may take a long time but with constant education peoples attitude may change.. Laws should be brought in to cover the responsible keeping of cats. 

If you look at smoking (for an analogy) years ago people never thought or knew it was as bad as it was. there was smoking on buses, trains, taxis, shopping centres etc.. smoking smoking everywhere.. but public education on the dangers of smoking and dangers of second hand smoke led to a change in community thinking and laws were brought in.. and today people still smoke but most observe the laws and dont do it in the places they are not supposed to. Its taken some time for this to happen and maybe a similar push for the responsible housing of cats could change the communities attitudes over time and with some laws and regulations maybe this situation will change. some NPWS adverts on tv and in the media with pictures of beautiful native wildlife - dead from cat predation would horrify most people. but what they dont see they dont think about or care about. NPWS need to get in peoples faces about these issues and be relentless until some action is taken and some laws introduced. 

probably not a great analogy but all I could think of at 5am..


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## Jeannine (Oct 14, 2011)

_Palm Oil Plantations in Indonesia now have to get an EIS done before jungle can be cleared
So there is some hope for the future there_

*as we all know its very easy to grease the palms of anyone involved in making those decisions to 'jiggle' the figures and that environmental damage is and will continue to affect the animals living in the area, the rainforests of the Amazon are another example of mans greed in destroying native to the benefit of man, goodness knows what has been lost in them.

Nighthawk, my cats are desexed, microchipped AND registered with my council, they do NOT roam because i enclosed half my verandah off for them and they go in and out of the house into it for sun, etc........a lot of pet owners do try to do the right thing by their pets and be responsible and would love nothing better then to desex them however a lot of vets will NOT let you pay them off and charge way to much to fix your animals so 'some' of the blame should be laid with them. if they can afford to do them cheaper on 'desexing days' why cant they be fixed that cheap every other day of the week

so tell me what else should i be doing in regards to MY cats, i already jump thru enough hoops owning them

i know feral cats do a lot of destruction, i know feral cats are just that feral however people forget they were already feral before man decided to domesticate them and have them as companions so they are in fact only doing what they did for millions of years BEFORE we interfered 

i get people dont like them, i get some people would love nothing better to do then to grab one and wring its neck, fill it with lead, put it in a bag and drown it, but look in the face of a child who loves her moggy and tell me that that child deserves it? education of that child is needed so she/he will grow up to be a responsible pet owner but dont murder their much loved pet

all of you who would happily kill a cat answer me this........if you WERE a cat lover and did the right thing by your animal and mother nature how would you feel coming in here and reading comments from cat haters about how your much loved pet and companion should be killed, drowned and murdered 

colin ive seen some of the ads you refer to, i dont think its a case of not thinking about it or not caring but we are use to violence of all sorts and have become desensitised to it, i mean its on our news and in our faces all the time and in fact we are now raising a community of children who play violent games on their computers, etc who are totally totally desensitised to death and im sure a lot of younger ones think if they 'kill' a friend/family member etc they can simply end the 'game' and that person will come back to life, they are totally detached from reality so seeing dead native animals in front of a cat isnt even worth nothing in their already violence overloaded brains but short of killing every single cat around what is the solution? especially when you do have irresponsible owners?

also what is the difference between cats attacking/killing wildlife and dogs doing it? my point!!! i seen a post in here about a bluey being attacked by a dog but not one member demanded that dog be hunted down and killed.......why? oh yes i am owned and at the beck and call of two doggies again desexed, chipped and registered plus never allowed to roam etc but just curious why thats all im betting if it had been a cat the reaction of members would have been totally different 

*


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## Colin (Oct 14, 2011)

as far as dogs go.. I thought you had to keep them contained on your own property and when outside your property on a leash. fences keep most dogs on their own property but cats climb and can roam especially at night when nocturnal animals and reptiles are about.. dogs can do damage to wildlife when let roam free but no way to the extent that cats do in my opinion.

If you keep your cat correctly housed and not allowed to roam thats great and I dont think anyone has a problem with cats housed correctly that dont present a danger to wildlife.. Its the other 95% (guesstimate) of cat owners that dont do this that are the problem and who need to be educated..


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## mrkos (Oct 14, 2011)

Forget about blaming cats people greedy mining corporations are the biggest risk to not only Australia but the world. Take a look at what's going on in Gladstone lately if they have their way and keep using cheaper risky practices our continent will be well and truly stuffed in twenty years another example is the amazon jungle don't worry about laying blame on the poor old puss. In saying that I think we should stop keeping cats and instead have tiger quolls as family pets


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## Colin (Oct 14, 2011)

mrkos said:


> Forget about blaming cats people greedy mining corporations are the biggest risk to not only Australia but the world. Take a look at what's going on in Gladstone lately if they have their way and keep using cheaper risky practices our continent will be well and truly stuffed in twenty years another example is the amazon jungle don't worry about laying blame on the poor old puss. In saying that I think we should stop keeping cats and instead have tiger quolls as family pets



definitely mining corporations are a huge threat, as is general habitat destruction but feral introduced species and cats roaming the country killing wildlife are also threats to our wildlife..

I support keeping quolls and other native marsupials if we're able to.. maybe even responsible people keeping and breeding tassie devils? would be great to see their numbers increase on a large scale and some re-intoduced back to tassie if possible. Im sure maggie would love to comment on this  where are you maggie?


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## snakeluvver (Oct 14, 2011)

My mum refuses to get a cat unless its an outdoor cat as she believes they need to be let outdoors.
Im really dissapointed in her, I tell her how much damage they do to the environment, as well as all the dangers to the cat (venomous wildlife, feral dogs, cars ect) but she wont listen :|


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## saximus (Oct 14, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> My mum refuses to get a cat unless its an outdoor cat as she believes they need to be let outdoors.
> Im really dissapointed in her, I tell her how much damage they do to the environment, as well as all the dangers to the cat (venomous wildlife, feral dogs, cars ect) but she wont listen :|


I agree with her. I think they should be let out to display their natural behaviours. This is why I'd never own one myself - I'd either feel guilty for having to lock it up or for the damage it was doing to wildlife


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 14, 2011)

Can't wait for catskin hats to come back in vogue


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## waruikazi (Oct 14, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> First off, i just want to say, i think Killing any animal with no real intention is stupid and disgusting.
> I have no idea why some people still kill every cane toad, cat, fox, rabbit they see when clearly they have a well enough established population that no matter how many we kill at this stage they will still exist here, whether we like it or not...
> Its our fault they're here in the first place so we have to deal with the consequences... Its got to a stage thats beyod return, so to me killing a cane toad is just as bad as killing a Green tee frog, its not justified, in the long run it changing near-to nothing, and your killing an innocent animal.



I had some real intention when i killed these...



























I'd show pics of the cats and dogs but there was nothing left of them.

You're wrong, you can quite easily hunt out an area of some feral species. The larger the easier, buffalo had been all but eradicated from the top end (from numbers in the hundreds of thousands, down to the single thousands) in the 80's and early 90's. Then the culls stopped and the numbers are back up again.

Darwin has also managed to keep itself toad free. From Hunts, culls and trapping.


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## Bel03 (Oct 14, 2011)

saximus said:


> I agree with her. I think they should be let out to display their natural behaviours. This is why I'd never own one myself - I'd either feel guilty for having to lock it up or for the damage it was doing to wildlife




Of the 3 cats my kids now have, all desexed, vaccinated & microchipped, the youngest male is the only one who if aloud would leave my yard. The other male, Benny, is almost 3 & is the laziest cat ive ever seen, we had a mouse in the lounge room the other night, it ran over the top of him, he didnt move! & no, i wouldnt have minded him catching it, it would have saved me alot of furnisher moving to get to it myself! Bella, is 6 almost 7, she's been with us since 4wks of age, she was dumped in my rubbish bin! She has never been outside, she very rarely even goes out to the cat run. I dont think they mind really if they dont know any different, they have the opportunity to go outside & explore if they want to, but besides the kitten, they often chose the comforts of the couch instead!


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## waruikazi (Oct 14, 2011)

FAY said:


> Ummmm CATS
> I had a cat for all it's life. I lived in an apartment. It had never been outside.
> 
> When we moved here, we had no intention of getting a dog. But guess what?
> ...



She swallowed the dog to chase the cat.
She swallowed the cat to eat the bird.
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider, that wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly. I don't know why she swallowed the fly, perhaps she'll die... 

Lol, soz. That's the primary school teacher coming out.


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## saximus (Oct 14, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> Of the 3 cats my kids now have, all desexed, vaccinated & microchipped, the youngest male is the only one who if aloud would leave my yard. The other male, Benny, is almost 3 & is the laziest cat ive ever seen, we had a mouse in the lounge room the other night, it ran over the top of him, he didnt move! & no, i wouldnt have minded him catching it, it would have saved me alot of furnisher moving to get to it myself! Bella, is 6 almost 7, she's been with us since 4wks of age, she was dumped in my rubbish bin! She has never been outside, she very rarely even goes out to the cat run. I dont think they mind really if they dont know any different, they have the opportunity to go outside & explore if they want to, but besides the kitten, they often chose the comforts of the couch instead!



Oh ok that's interesting. I would have assumed they would naturally just want to be out and about. Shows how little I know :|



waruikazi said:


> She swallowed the dog to chase the cat.
> She swalled the cat to eat the bird.
> She swalled the bird to catch the spider, that wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her.
> She swalled the spider to catch the fly. I don't know why she swallowed the fly, perhaps she'll die...
> ...


HA! One of my all time favourite childhood books


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## Bel03 (Oct 14, 2011)

saximus said:


> Oh ok that's interesting. I would have assumed they would naturally just want to be out and about. Shows how little I know :|
> 
> I wouldnt say 'how little you know' cause im sure there are cats that dont enjoy it so much either! I think all cats have that 'natural hunting instinct'.........our Benny is just a freak! :lol: Miss Bella had a hard start to life & as she always has plenty of food, warmth & love at home i dont think she has ever wanted to risk losing it by wandering! The kitten.......well he is a typical kitten, he stalks our pet birds, he can lay for hours & watch the snake, he gets very excited when birds land near the cat run.......he is a very normal cat, he just cant get any of them! I hope he soon learns it is pointless & becomes as laid back as our others, but if not, at least i know he isnt doing any damage.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 14, 2011)

Sax my cat is an indoor cat as well and her instinct are "switched on"... I just supplement that by letting her hunt a peice of string, small remote control cars covered in a furry material, the dog or in most cases myself or the wife. It keeps her entertained enough and she's afraid of the outside world. The few times I've taken her out on a leash we never lasted more than 10 minutes in the backyard before something spooks her and she wants to go inside.


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## Waterrat (Oct 14, 2011)

My last world on this subject:
One can not reason with serial cat haters. They think they are conservationists because they hate cats. But like all extremists and radicals, they're not taken seriously by the rest of the community.


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## Defective (Oct 14, 2011)

i know that the cats that come into our yard all have collars and belong to someone because i keep a loaded waterpistol with diluted lemon an lime juice in it for 3am when they start fighting on our roof and the bells on the collars wake me up


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## Colin (Oct 14, 2011)

Defective said:


> i keep a loaded waterpistol with diluted lemon an lime juice in it for 3am



just add some tequila and a dash of salt  that water pistol will be a tequila shooter


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## Nighthawk (Oct 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> My last world on this subject:
> One can not reason with serial cat haters. They think they are conservationists because they hate cats. But like all extremists and radicals, they're not taken seriously by the rest of the community.



Nobody is taken seriously by anybody else with an opposing view. As much as people like to say they engage in serious and respectful argument/debate, more often than not it results in a flaming row for that very reason.
For my part I'd like to point out I'm not a cat-hater; I don't mind a moggy on my lap for a pat but I'd prefer it belonged to somebody else, and I certainly wouldn't hurt somebody else's pet considering I've had neighbours do that to mine before.
I just think there should be laws in place for irresponsible cat owners, just as there are laws in place for irresponsible owners of most other breeds of pet, and subsequent consequences for stepping outside those boundaries. It may not stop anything, but it would make the majority think twice. If certain people really did feel some compassion for life in general I can't see why it wouldn't be possible to come to a compromise and work toward such an end. Cats are just following their natural instincts after all, it's the owners who, in the end, should be held accountable for the actions they take, but sadly it's an animal ignorant of mankind's rules which suffers the consequences.


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## SamNabz (Oct 14, 2011)

,After having a quick read through the thread, I can't find any thing wrong with what Jeffa has done.

I'm not a cat person, however in saying that I would never go out and shoot one...

He simply trapped the cat (be it a pet or feral) on *his* property and then made the effort to hand it to the pound. If he really was a 'red-neck', then I guess he would have disposed of it differently.

As mentioned, the pound gives the owner(s) 3 days to claim their pet before being put down - which I think is fair. Even if there is a fee to pay to collect the animal, it is well deserved seeing as the cat wasn't where it is supposed to be.

I have *never* met a cat owner who has a cat run and in fact I've never actually seen a cat run in person; only ever in images/videos.

My neighbours have 3 cats who are ALWAYS outside and recently decided to take refuge on one side of my yard which runs up the side of our house. I have '_shoo'd_' them off many-a-time and told the owner's that they need to do something about it before I do. Naturally, being cat owners, they did absolutely nothing about it (mind you, these neighbours claim to be greenies and will do everything they can to prosecute you or get you fined for simply chopping some branches off a tree in *your own yard*).

The cats fight and mate ferociously and not long ago one of them had a litter of kittens. I went out to have a look and the 3 cats were there as well as the kittens. I caught the 3 cats and placed them in big storage tubs and took them to the pound myself. I then rounded up the kittens and took them to my neighbours house and notified them that these were now their kittens and then said "oh, and you might want to give the local pound a visit as they have 3 of your cats which won't be there too much longer" as I was walking back home - to which they looked at me with disgust and shock..?


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## hurcorh (Oct 14, 2011)

buy an english staffy. He solved my mates cat problems


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## Darlyn (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't understand what makes a cats life more sacred than our native wildlife.
Jeffa has been responsible in his disposal of a killing machine.
If the owners are responible people they will claim their cat back and maybe put some thought into restraining it's wandering habits.
If not then the world is less one cat which is certainly not a huge drama.


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## MaggieH (Oct 14, 2011)

Im here Col. Great Thread and interesting what you all have to say. The one thing I would like to say is that if we want to have any animals survive, in the next 30 - 50 years we have to start taking them in to privet collections. Conservation through commercialism. The Human race is destroying all habitat for all animals and the only place that will be left it the HUMAN habitat. If they are not with us they will be gone. Please don't assume I mean this is the only measure we should take it is only one of many steps we need to take. The constitutions in Australia allowed us to have natives as pets but it us to the states to say which. There is a list with names on it. The list is different in each state. As is the list of what is an Australian species. These lists need to be expanded and co-ordinated. 

Look for example to the Tazzy Devil. They WILL be all gone from the wild in the next 50years. With out Devil Ark the species will become extinct. The Devils are far from the most endangered species. In fact the bettong is. 
Please See Devil Ark.com.au 

How is that for a start Col?

to have your say please go to:
Australian Natives Animals as Pets in NSW | Facebook


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## Colin (Oct 14, 2011)

thanks maggie and welcome to the forum 
Is it true the powers that be are trying to make this list smaller instead of expanding it? Whatsyour opinion (and John Weigel's opinion) of responsible people being allowed to keep and breed the tasmainan devils as part of the recovery program? Is there any chance of this? If you look at how the RSP came into the hobby and the numbers bred maybe private keepers could do something for conservation and assist with breeding up some numbers. It would be an excellent thing to do for the devils and for aussie wildlife.


sorry if this is a bit off topic.. and thanks everyone for being so tolerant of each other.. this must be a record for a cat thread


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 14, 2011)

They've been saying Corroboree frogs will be extinct in 3 years for a decade, now you say Devils "WILL" be extinct in the wild (apart from 'introduced' wild mainland pops). While the situation for devils is critical, and I am a huge cynic, how can you be sure they will go extinct. Don't think I am saying we shouldn't help them. I agree with everything being done to try and save the species. I just don't think the fate of this species in the wild is so assured that we can yet say whether they will or won't survive. Especially since the Western populations of devils from what I have read have greater natural variance and thus better chance of developing a resistance to the disease.


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## MaggieH (Oct 14, 2011)

I can not Speak for John, But this is exactly what i am pushing for and not just for the Devils. 
I think there is quite a large percentage of people that could house a betong, possum or a bilby quite well. Maybe 10% of the population could hold a native of some sort. The population of Australia this year is *22,732,639*
Im no expert but that is a huge amount of funding that could go in to Native Australian animals. 
Now look at the flow on... Vets, Research Native animal products. etc.

Geckphotographer please go to and read Tasmanian devil, devil breeding program | Devil Ark | save the Tasmanian devil, tassie devil. There has been ppl working on this problem for nearly 10 years with nearly no impact. 

Please google Dr Menna Jones

This is the reality. We are way past the modern opinion of things. We only have our generation to act. But humans are to complacent and neutralised to see it. 

Please educate everyone and let get things started. PLEASE


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## Jeffa (Oct 14, 2011)

Well said Colin, I think a nice celabatory drink is in order.



Oh and thanks for the inspiration Waterrat, this ones for you.

Happy caging.


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## waruikazi (Oct 14, 2011)

This might be a good time for a bit of cross promotion! Don't forget Gavin Bedfords talk on November 12! On pretty well exactly this topic! http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/like-buy-oenpelli-python-170775/ 



MaggieH said:


> I can not Speak for John, But this is exactly what i am pushing for and not just for the Devils.
> I think there is quite a large percentage of people that could house a betong, possum or a bilby quite well. Maybe 10% of the population could hold a native of some sort. The population of Australia this year is *22,732,639*
> Im no expert but that is a huge amount of funding that could go in to Native Australian animals.
> Now look at the flow on... Vets, Research Native animal products. etc.
> ...


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## Waterrat (Oct 14, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Oh and thanks for the inspiration Waterrat, this ones for you.



Very good mate! I didn't know I was that influential.


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## nico77 (Oct 14, 2011)

If i had a cat i would preffer someone to bring it to the pound instead of killing it , but i wouldnt own a cat 

I think all cats should be desexed before sale unless you are a registerd cat breeder that way there wouldnt be as many cats breeding un-wanted litters . NSW is bringing in enclosure sizes for snakes why dont they make a law that you can not own a cat if you dont have an appropriate sized cat run for the cat before purchase .


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## jack (Oct 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> My last world on this subject:
> One can not reason with serial cat haters. They think they are conservationists because they hate cats. But like all extremists and radicals, they're not taken seriously by the rest of the community.



reason... what an interesting proposal. Perhaps a cost benefit analysis would help: someone whip up a table of pros and cons of keeping cats in this country, i wonder which column would be longest?


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## Jeannine (Oct 14, 2011)

*colin yes we are suppose to but seriously how many do? also wildlife come into peoples property, i do believe that one that attacked the bluey was on a person's property? dogs can also go feral and turn wild and attack LARGE native animals, well any size really yes they can also attack live stock but its not JUST cats that are to blame 

since man stepped foot on this planet he has set out to destroy it by whatever means he can, dogs and cats were here in some form well before WE crawled out of the mud 

**i would like to point out that irresponsible pet owners are just that and will never do the right thing however cat lovers still love their cats as much as people in here love their reptiles, do you have any idea how upsetting it is to enter a topic and read members not only condoning the killing of them but suggestions on how to do it

how do you know someone's child wouldnt read something like that and get upset? or is it ok to do that because its JUST a cat *

*again it comes down to respecting each other and i guess it just doesnt go for everyone which is a shame and i guess im a lot different to a lot in here because no matter what i would NEVER condone cruelty to any animal under any circumstance regardless of the animal

in fact i have even just whipped off a complaint to the SPCA in a county in America because i just watched a show where a lobster was served up raw with its tail was sliced for the diners to eat and the bloody thing was still ALIVE , made me sick to my stomach *


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## Waterrat (Oct 14, 2011)

Jack, that like if someone whips up the same for junkies and drug pushers. We know which column would be longest. Doable? No.


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 14, 2011)

The pet industry would fall over without the support of cat owners, they spend mega amounts on their pets

pussie collars, pussie baskets, pussie toys and pussie food....LOL

Forgto mention the vets would feel the pinch as well


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## waruikazi (Oct 14, 2011)

Jeannine said:


> *again it comes down to respecting each other and i guess it just doesnt go for everyone which is a shame and i guess im a lot different to a lot in here because no matter what i would NEVER condone cruelty to any animal under any circumstance regardless of the animal
> 
> *



I haven't seen a post that is condoning cruelty.


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## Colin (Oct 14, 2011)

MaggieH said:


> I can not Speak for John, But this is exactly what i am pushing for and not just for the Devils.
> I think there is quite a large percentage of people that could house a betong, possum or a bilby quite well. Maybe 10% of the population could hold a native of some sort.



very true maggie.. I think a lot of native animals would thrive in private keepers care and there could be some stud book setup with breeding information etc. I think how sometimes we hear of animals being seized by NPWS service from some source and then what? they usually die because they dont have a clue.. It would be much better to have some professional herpetologists in charge of a breeding program and farm some out to private keepers to breed them.. It would be an awesome conservation project to not only keep these endagered species alive but to thrive and come back in numbers.. funded by the private keepers for the priveledge of participating in such a program.. its a win win situation in my opinion. same goes for the devils and corroborre frogs. why cant private keepers be involved? especially if the animals are owned by the program and not sold by the keepers. some offspring could be added to their individual programs and then further offspring set up for the next keeper.. and so on.. they wouldnt need a lot of funding because we'd be doing all the work and putting in the hours and the effort. It would be a great thing to do and if organised and contolled by a core group of people could work in my opinion. thoughts?


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## Scleropages (Oct 14, 2011)

I am not a fan of cats but if anyone trapped my mothers pet cat without telling me and giving me the option of getting it back with a warning etc... The trapper would be toast and I would be in jail.

To have such a lack of respect for some ones loved pet is just low.

I am quite aware that cats need to be kept inside in Australia but that goes the same as saying a pet snake will never get out - and that happens quite a bit going by threads here.


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## MaggieH (Oct 14, 2011)

This is the law in nsw:

Responsibilities of pet owners
To ensure the comfort, safety and health of the whole
community, the Companion Animals Act places certain
responsibilities on pet owners.
Here is a summary of responsibilities of cat owners under
the Act:
l All cats must be identified by a form of identification that
enables a local authority to ascertain the name of the cat
and the address or telephone number of the owner;
l Cats are prohibited in wildlife protection areas and food
preparation/consumption areas;
l You must ensure your cat does not interfere with the
peace, comfort or convenience of any person in any other
premises, or
l Repeatedly damage anything outside the property on
which it is ordinarily kept.
Penalty notices issued under the Act
Animal not permanently identified (microchipped) . . . $165
Animal not registered . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $165
Failure to notify change of address/owner . . . . . . . . . $165
Failure to take seized animal to pound/shelter . . . . . $550
Failure to comply with nuisance cat order . . . . . . . . . $165
Cat in prohibited place . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $110
Cat not wear identification . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $110
Obstruct authorised officer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $165

for more info see: http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/DLG/DLGHo...ormation_for_Cat_Owners_in_NSW_-_Brochure.pdf


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## Jeffa (Oct 14, 2011)

Here are a few tips that may help in trapping stray animals.

1. sprinkle some food around the area you are planning to set the trap a few days prior to help catch alert and tricky animals, this method makes the stray fell less nervous and comfortable with the surrounds.

2. If you borrow the trap from the council or a friend, then give it a good clean prior to use as some smells such as dog smells may deter a capture.

3. If you want to warn neighbors that you will be setting traps, mail dropping under the cover of darkness is a good way to go, so you dont get any threats from aggressive people like scleropages when their beloved pet is at the pound.
If this does not work (did not for me) try a letterdrop claiming that you have set poison baits on your property (lies of course) as this may result in the wake up call of a pet owner to be more responsible. But remain annonomous.

Happy days


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## MaggieH (Oct 14, 2011)

I know a great cat aviary man if anyone is interested.


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## Focus (Oct 14, 2011)

Waterrat, 

While I agree that many snake lovers seem to get some sort of strange pleasure out of cat death talk and it can be disturbing, I'm actually quite interested in what you actually think of cats free roaming the neighbourhood. Are you saying that it has no detrimental effect on natives? Or that their impact on wildlife is negligible within suburban areas? Or that too many people own cats for anything to be effectively done about it?

I think everyone so far has said that they have no issue at all with cats kept on the owner's premises. I would personally never euthanise someone's pet, I'd return it to them if I could and politely request that they keep it out of my garden. And I do actually mean politely, lol. 

I don't have strong opinions on the subject but I have spoken with wildlife carers who have told me that domestic cats can cause severe damage to urban populations of natives. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if this is not the case, I'd just like to hear the argument for it. Not stirring at all, genuinely interested.


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## longqi (Oct 14, 2011)

Focus said:


> Waterrat,
> 
> While I agree that many snake lovers seem to get some sort of strange pleasure out of cat death talk and it can be disturbing, I'm actually quite interested in what you actually think of cats free roaming the neighbourhood. Are you saying that it has no detrimental effect on natives? Or that their impact on wildlife is negligible within suburban areas? Or that too many people own cats for anything to be effectively done about it?
> 
> ...



Just make a nice bushy area cat free
Even a big back yard will do
After 2 years you will have so many birds lizards etc that you will shake your head in disbelief
If you have a pond it will be full of frogs etc


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## Focus (Oct 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> Just make a nice bushy area cat free
> Even a big back yard will do
> After 2 years you will have so many birds lizards etc that you will shake your head in disbelief
> If you have a pond it will be full of frogs etc





From what limited knowledge I have on the subject I'm in total agreement. It's just that some seem to be arguing that that isn't true or is at least an exaggeration. I'd be interested to hear the argument for that view.


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## Waterrat (Oct 14, 2011)

Focus said:


> Waterrat,
> 
> While I agree that many snake lovers seem to get some sort of strange pleasure out of cat death talk and it can be disturbing, I'm actually quite interested in what you actually think of cats free roaming the neighbourhood. Are you saying that it has no detrimental effect on natives? Or that their impact on wildlife is negligible within suburban areas? Or that too many people own cats for anything to be effectively done about it?
> 
> ...



Fuscus, I don't deny that cats are hunters and do damage to urban wildlife. Lets leave ferals aside for now, that's different category again. Urbanization itself is the biggest killer of wildlife add the cats are picking up the crumbs. I am not suggesting that it's alright but I do acknowledge that pets, including cats are important in people's lives and have been for decades if not centuries. People without pets are strange people (that's only my opinion) and children deprived of intimate contact with animals grow up into strange adults. For decades, out wildlife managers have been telling us "look but don't touch" and we now have a generation of young people who never left the fur of a possum, wombat or the skin of a snake. We are not allowed to keep native wildlife as pets, so what's the alternative? Dogs and cats.
Cats have been in suburbs for yonks and they shape up the urban ecology the same way dingos or crocodiles do in the wild, they are the top predator in suburbs. Yet, we still have abundance of wildlife in our gardens and I doubt there are any real data that would suggest steady declines - temporary ones, perhaps but the same goes on in the bush. Of course it hurts to see a cat dragging dead honey-eater or a water dragon and us naturalists, we get upset.
There should be a uniform law across this country; no more that 2 cats per household, both desexed and microchipped. Compulsory confinement to indoors will NEVER work. Houses are not being built to include cat runs and many people simply can't afford it. Kids (and adults) and not always diligent when it comes to closing doors, so cats get out.

What makes me cranky is the mentality of cat haters who think if they kill a cat they have done some monumental act in support of conservation. That's an absolute crap, it's equal to killing one cane toad or shooting one pig. And before somebody says "but if all did ........", it's even more crap, no need for explanation I hope.

Cheers
M



Bredlislave said:


> use whatever irresponsible people like to eat instead. = Beer or Red Wine



I consider myself a responsible person but if set a trap with few bottles of Grange, I'll get caught.


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## Focus (Oct 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Fuscus, I don't deny that cats are hunters and do damage to urban wildlife. Lets leave ferals aside for now, that's different category again. Urbanization itself is the biggest killer of wildlife add the cats are picking up the crumbs. I am not suggesting that it's alright but I do acknowledge that pets, including cats are important in people's lives and have been for decades if not centuries. People without pets are strange people (that's only my opinion) and children deprived of intimate contact with animals grow up into strange adults. For decades, out wildlife managers have been telling us "look but don't touch" and we now have a generation of young people who never left the fur of a possum, wombat or the skin of a snake. We are not allowed to keep native wildlife as pets, so what's the alternative? Dogs and cats.
> Cats have been in suburbs for yonks and they shape up the urban ecology the same way dingos or crocodiles do in the wild, they are the top predator in suburbs. Yet, we still have abundance of wildlife in our gardens and I doubt there are any real data that would suggest steady declines - temporary ones, perhaps but the same goes on in the bush. Of course it hurts to see a cat dragging dead honey-eater or a water dragon and us naturalists, we get upset.
> There should be a uniform law across this country; no more that 2 cats per household, both desexed and microchipped. Compulsory confinement to indoors will NEVER work. Houses are not being built to include cat runs and many people simply can't afford it. Kids (and adults) and not always diligent when it comes to closing doors, so cats get out.
> 
> ...





Thanks for explaining your stance mate. It's food for thought. 

Cheers


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## Australis (Oct 14, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> I just don't think the fate of this species in the wild is so assured that we can yet say whether they will or won't survive. Especially since the Western populations of devils from what I have read have greater natural variance and thus better chance of developing a resistance to the disease.



From memory the (north) western population is actually the least genetically diverse. The species as a whole seriously lacks diversity as it is.. i think as a result of bottle necking its way over to Tasmania when a land bridge existed.


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## andyscott (Oct 14, 2011)

If a cat is left to roam after dark, it is legal in Victoria to treat it as feral, trap it and shoot it.
Even if it is a pet.

Ive been setting Possum Traps for Cats on my proptery for years.
The traps get set after 10pm and I un-set them before sun up, I do this 2 to 3 times a month.
This year I have only traped and shot 3 or 4,
where as in past years I would well and truely be in double figures by this time of year.
Cat numbers down, I must be winning the fight.

Im sorry to say this Michael, as I do respect you,
But if you were my neighbour and your cat was left to roam at night.
I would take it.

I am all for people to keep cats as pets, I understand that a Cat owner loves their beloved puss.
With that said, if they truely love their cat, lock it up at night, buy a cat run to keep it safe.

If its left to roam, its un loved in my book and I will take it.


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## Jeffa (Oct 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Fuscus, I don't deny that cats are hunters and do damage to urban wildlife. Lets leave ferals aside for now, that's different category again. Urbanization itself is the biggest killer of wildlife add the cats are picking up the crumbs. I am not suggesting that it's alright but I do acknowledge that pets, including cats are important in people's lives and have been for decades if not centuries. People without pets are strange people (that's only my opinion) and children deprived of intimate contact with animals grow up into strange adults. For decades, out wildlife managers have been telling us "look but don't touch" and we now have a generation of young people who never left the fur of a possum, wombat or the skin of a snake. We are not allowed to keep native wildlife as pets, so what's the alternative? Dogs and cats.
> Cats have been in suburbs for yonks and they shape up the urban ecology the same way dingos or crocodiles do in the wild, they are the top predator in suburbs. Yet, we still have abundance of wildlife in our gardens and I doubt there are any real data that would suggest steady declines - temporary ones, perhaps but the same goes on in the bush. Of course it hurts to see a cat dragging dead honey-eater or a water dragon and us naturalists, we get upset.
> There should be a uniform law across this country; no more that 2 cats per household, both desexed and microchipped. Compulsory confinement to indoors will NEVER work. Houses are not being built to include cat runs and many people simply can't afford it. Kids (and adults) and not always diligent when it comes to closing doors, so cats get out.
> 
> ...




I see your point Michael and I appreciate your feedback.

But what happens is someones pet causes distress to someones sleeps at all hours of the morning? Lets take away for a minute the potential harm they may cause for our wildlife and concentrate on the the effects of a domestic or feral pet on someones property. Noise resulting in lack of sleep, defication caused by fighting and not to mention possible allergy probs. 

Please Waterrat if you will, could you answer these questions.

Hypothetically speaking, if you found a neighbors cat in one of your averies with a couple of dead gtps, would you

A. Kill the animal on site as this is unacceptable?
B. Trap the animal and call the pound in a humane manner?
C. Track down the owner and show them the damage and price, grief that their pet has caused?
D. This will not happen as my enclousures are completely secure.

If you choose C, If there response is it only a few snakes, how would you react?
If you choose D, then well done, this topic is about responsible pet ownerhip and good on you.

At the end of the day if you dont accept responsibilities for your pets that can have or will result in other peoples issues and affect their wellbeing then you are not a responsible pet owner. I see that members get grilled for keeping gtps in setups that are not recomended by yourself. Same **** different smell wouldnt you think?

You know what they say... You cant smell the same **** on your knees.....

Peace all


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## longqi (Oct 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Fuscus, I don't deny that cats are hunters and do damage to urban wildlife. Lets leave ferals aside for now, that's different category again. Urbanization itself is the biggest killer of wildlife add the cats are picking up the crumbs. I am not suggesting that it's alright but I do acknowledge that pets, including cats are important in people's lives and have been for decades if not centuries. People without pets are strange people (that's only my opinion) and children deprived of intimate contact with animals grow up into strange adults. For decades, out wildlife managers have been telling us "look but don't touch" and we now have a generation of young people who never left the fur of a possum, wombat or the skin of a snake. We are not allowed to keep native wildlife as pets, so what's the alternative? Dogs and cats.
> Cats have been in suburbs for yonks and they shape up the urban ecology the same way dingos or crocodiles do in the wild, they are the top predator in suburbs. Yet, we still have abundance of wildlife in our gardens and I doubt there are any real data that would suggest steady declines - temporary ones, perhaps but the same goes on in the bush. Of course it hurts to see a cat dragging dead honey-eater or a water dragon and us naturalists, we get upset.
> There should be a uniform law across this country; no more that 2 cats per household, both desexed and microchipped. Compulsory confinement to indoors will NEVER work. Houses are not being built to include cat runs and many people simply can't afford it. Kids (and adults) and not always diligent when it comes to closing doors, so cats get out.
> 
> ...



Prefer a good Chablis myself
Grange a bit too heavy on this jaded pallette [87 was a good year]

I agree with most of this especially the part about kids without pets
Although it may look like I hate cats I actually dont and quite enjoy their company in selected areas
But those areas never include places where small native wildlife of any description also lives


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> I see your point Michael and I appreciate your feedback.
> 
> But what happens is someones pet causes distress to someones sleeps at all hours of the morning? Lets take away for a minute the potential harm they may cause for our wildlife and concentrate on the the effects of a domestic or feral pet on someones property. Noise resulting in lack of sleep, defication caused by fighting and not to mention possible allergy probs.
> 
> ...




Mate, what about hoons doing burnouts in front of your place? What about barking dogs in the neighborhood? The screaming kids next door? Have you ever lived in a street where someone has got ************ Sulphur-crested cockatoo that screeches every day at down? THAT'S LIFE IN SUBURBIA! Unfortunately.


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## Nighthawk (Oct 15, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> I don't understand what makes a cats life more sacred than our native wildlife.
> Jeffa has been responsible in his disposal of a killing machine.
> If the owners are responible people they will claim their cat back and maybe put some thought into restraining it's wandering habits.
> If not then the world is less one cat which is certainly not a huge drama.



Life in general is sacred. It's a gift, from nature, god or random accident, whatever your stance. Irresponsible pet owners are just as guilty as sadists of forgetting this fact.
If you allow a predator in your care to run amok and as a result that animal is put down than you may as well drown it the moment you get it, it's life is wasted from that point. I lived next door to a man who let his junkyard pitties bail up women and children and kill beloved pets; those animals got put down and he blamed me for calling dog control after I beat them off my dog and chased them up the driveway with a chain (on my property no less). As far as I was concerned he may as well have held the syringe himself the moment he let those animals get out of control, but duly noted his strength of will was well-illustrated by the fact that he yelled out blame from the top of the driveway and behind the fence, the big tough skinhead, scared by an angry little woman with a choke-chain, as were his 'guard dogs'.
This is an extreme case, exceptions do happen where a snake will escape or a dog jump the fence and simply follow it's nose, but repetitive occurances where the owner doesn't appear to care what impact their animal has need to have repercussions.


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## ramzee86 (Oct 15, 2011)

All this brings me back to think.
How many animal extinctions have domestic cats been responsible for? (If any it is because of us humans putting and breeding them outside their natural geographical range)
How many animal extinctions have humans been responsible for?
Yeah, we can't talk.

Speciesism, look it up.


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## waruikazi (Oct 15, 2011)

That is a pathetic defeatist attitude. 



ramzee86 said:


> All this brings me back to think.
> How many animal extinctions have domestic cats been responsible for? (If any it is because of us humans putting and breeding them outside their natural geographical range)
> How many animal extinctions have humans been responsible for?
> Yeah, we can't talk.
> ...


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 15, 2011)

andyscott said:


> If a cat is left to roam after dark, it is legal in Victoria to treat it as feral, trap it and shoot it.
> Even if it is a pet.
> 
> Ive been setting Possum Traps for Cats on my proptery for years.
> ...



I know it is illegal in some council areas, like mine, for cats to be out after dusk. I also know you are allowed to catch said cats but I don't think it is legal to shoot them, thats just you taking the law into your own hands. If I am wrong please post a link showing me where it says you are allowed to shoot someones pet. This attitude is fairly disgusting, what if the person is generally a very responsible cat owner and through no fault of their own there cat is accidentally let out. I had the people up the back come looking for their cat recently. She had never been outside before but had escaped her crate when going to the vet. His girlfriend had not latched it properly. She was missing for three days and they were distraught. Imagine if someone like you had gotten hold of it. Their cat was desexed and microchipped and they did everything required to keep it inside, it is not fair to have some trigger happy cat hater kill your pet because of an accident, at least trap them and take them to the pound so the owners have a chance to get them back.


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## Radar (Oct 15, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> That is a pathetic defeatist attitude.



I can't stand it when people come out with 'Yeah but land clearing does more damage' or 'everyone else does it so me stopping wont make a difference'. 

If you love your pet, look after it inside. If you have an outdoor cat simply because you don't want to have to clean its litter tray, rethink pet ownership. I clean up after a 45kg bullarab/ridgeback/pitty. Not my favourite task, but Im responsible enough not to let it out to drop anti-tank landmines on the neighbours front veranda.


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## snaker (Oct 16, 2011)

*Pythons wandering at night*

I think that a responsible cat owner should keep their cat indoors at night for many reasons, they may get run over, they may fight with other cats, kill wildlife or even other pets, get attacked by a dog or TRAPPED BY A PSYCHO  the list goes on. A cat is like any animal - driven by instinct, and cannot be blamed for what it does, and it cannot be entrusted with it's own safety. It is irresponsibility and public acceptance that lets this happen.

If I let my Pythons wander the streets at night, or my 2yr old toddler for that matter, I would be considered a disgrace , BUT THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.


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## 69blottfilms69 (Oct 17, 2011)

I have cats and im a cat lover 
My cats have never killed a bird
one of them once brought a bunny in thinking it was a kitten carrying by the scrff it was not hurt


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## gandal88 (Oct 17, 2011)

i own a cat and i let it out in my yard i live in inner brisbane it is in every night and out everyday with the option to com in if it wants it has bought countless skinks grass hoppers cockroaches even the odd gecko in toplay with and everytime i see it except for the roaches i pick them up and put outside does this make it bad no it doesnt the people who sit on their porch in their rocking chair with their 12 gauge are nothing but red neck hill billies that like to kill domestic cats an excuse it likes to kill things, well so do you!! that been said i understand that FERAL cats are a different story trap and euthanise all you want you wont make a difference. i agree with all the give yourself a pat on the back and here is a meddle for being such a top guy saving the animals and posting it so others can give you a pat on the back! geez some of you people are thick as the great wall of china. end rant


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## HoffOff (Oct 17, 2011)

gandal88 said:


> i own a cat and i let it out in my yard i live in inner brisbane it is in every night and out everyday with the option to com in if it wants it has bought countless skinks grass hoppers cockroaches even the odd gecko in toplay with and everytime i see it except for the roaches i pick them up and put outside does this make it bad no it doesnt the people who sit on their porch in their rocking chair with their 12 gauge are nothing but red neck hill billies that like to kill domestic cats an excuse it likes to kill things, well so do you!! that been said i understand that FERAL cats are a different story trap and euthanise all you want you wont make a difference. i agree with all the give yourself a pat on the back and here is a meddle for being such a top guy saving the animals and posting it so others can give you a pat on the back! geez some of you people are thick as the great wall of china. end rant


*alright, lets break this wall of text down a little.*



> it has bought countless skinks grass hoppers cockroaches even the odd gecko in toplay with and everytime i see it except for the roaches i pick them up and put outside does this make it bad no it doesnt


Correct me if i'm wrong, but most little things are very sensitive- "playing" could be damaging to the animals, cats can be pretty rough "playing". And many cats don't bring home there "kills", they just leave it outside, to die.


> i understand that FERAL cats are a different story trap and euthanise all you want


I think it was stated earlier in the thread, a feral animal is anything that isn't inside it's residence, so "fluffykins" out the front, is a feral.


> i agree with all the give yourself a pat on the back and here is a meddle for being such a top guy saving the animals and posting it so others can give you a pat on the back! geez some of you people are thick as the great wall of china.


I think i detect a hint of sarcasm, i'm not sure as the internet's a hard place to determine it, are you saying-
"Good on ya, you saved some wildlife"
or
"You're a idiot, you trapped a feral cat that kills native life, you should be ashamed"
(I don't agree with taking the murder into you're own hands, trapping and taking to the pound sounds perfectly fine, tho.)



69blottfilms69 said:


> I have cats and im a cat lover
> My cats have never killed a bird
> one of them once brought a bunny in thinking it was a kitten carrying by the scrff it was not hurt


 And many cats don't bring home there "kills", they just leave it outside, to die.
And i don't think you're cat brought home the rabbit thinking it was a kitten, My mothers cat has brought rats/mice inside by the scruff, only to eat it a couple minutes later.
How can you be so sure it hasn't killed a bird?.


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## gandal88 (Oct 17, 2011)

snakeman112 said:


> *alright, lets break this wall of text down a little.*
> 
> 
> Correct me if i'm wrong, but most little things are very sensitive- "playing" could be damaging to the animals, cats can be pretty rough "playing". And many cats don't bring home there "kills", they just leave it outside, to die.
> ...



cheers jamie


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## cement (Oct 17, 2011)

MaggieH said:


> This is the law in nsw:
> 
> Responsibilities of pet owners
> To ensure the comfort, safety and health of the whole
> ...


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

Settle down Graham, it's getting too much into your head. The local Councils can't do anything about it, communities are largely ignorant to the cat problems, and YOU can't do anything about it either, i.e. anything effective. And that's why you're having outbursts here on a forum - that's all you can do about it. 
Abundant wildlife in our gardens in not a joke. We have skinks, tree snakes, water rats, butterflies, frogs, etc., in our garden ..... and we have a cat too. You are right in your last sentence, so maybe it's time to stop hating cats and start confronting irresponsible cat owners - not here at your keyboard; personally. Are you up to it?


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Michael... pots, kettles and blackness? lol



Waterrat said:


> Settle down Graham, it's getting too much into your head. The local Councils can't do anything about it, communities are largely ignorant to the cat problems, and YOU can't do anything about it either, i.e. anything effective. *And that's why you're having outbursts here on a forum - that's all you can do about it.
> *Abundant wildlife in our gardens in not a joke. We have skinks, tree snakes, water rats, butterflies, frogs, etc., in our garden ..... and we have a cat too. You are right in your last sentence, so maybe it's time to stop hating cats and start confronting irresponsible cat owners - not here at your keyboard; personally. Are you up to it?


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Michael... pots, kettles and blackness? lol



Me no understand. sory


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## Red-Ink (Oct 17, 2011)

Like I said before I own a cat and love the little bugger dearly.....
It's an indoor cat and has never been outside without a leash around it's neck.
I'm pro eradicating feral cats....
But in suburbia these cats are people's pets, just like my cat and my reptiles.

If one of my reptiles get's out to the neighbours yard and they take a shovel to it I would be horrified and livid, it would be no different if they shot my cat as their cat haters...

If they trap my cat and have enough "BALLS" to let me know (rather than just lurking in the suburban shadows being all J.I. Joe about it)... I would actually probably give them a reward for finding the damn thing in the first place. At least it was safe and didn't get run over or got shot...
By all means trap the cats in your neighbourhood as they are causing damage but at least have the decency to let the owners know, and don't say they have three days to re-claim it from the pound. That's just you letting the pound do the dirty work while you sit back and think what a good boy I am.


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Like I said before I own a cat and love the little bugger dearly.....
> It's an indoor cat and has never been outside without a leash around it's neck.
> I'm pro eradicating feral cats....
> But in suburbia these cats are people's pets, just like my cat and my reptiles.
> ...



Why is it the trappers responsibility to ensure that you get your cat, or any other pet back?


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Why is it the trappers responsibility to ensure that you get your cat, or any other pet back?



He said "decency" Gordo, not responsibility. Since when are red-necks responsible?


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Since when are cat owners who allow their cats outside responsible?

My question stands. If the owner values their cat they will pay the fine/fee of pounding their animal.



Waterrat said:


> Since when are red-necks responsible?


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## Bel03 (Oct 17, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Like I said before I own a cat and love the little bugger dearly.....
> It's an indoor cat and has never been outside without a leash around it's neck.
> I'm pro eradicating feral cats....
> But in suburbia these cats are people's pets, just like my cat and my reptiles.
> ...



Its G.I Joe....... Sorry, im just being picky! Carry on.......


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## gandal88 (Oct 17, 2011)

i would be happy to pay the fine to get my cat back but i would think the person who trapped it a gutless pos with no balls i would respect someone more if they bought my cat back to me than not jmho


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

Page 13, nothing resolved, seemingly nothing learned or understood, just a few pointless fights. 
Cat haters will never know nor understand what it's like to like / love a cat just like an undesexed dog will never know what it's like to have a f*&#. Another 13 pages?


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## gandal88 (Oct 17, 2011)

^^ lol


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## HoffOff (Oct 17, 2011)

Keep. Your. Cats. Inside.
Oh wow, look at that, 13 pages answered in one line, how wonderful.
Tell you're neighbours about there cats, if they don't listen, trap them and give them back, if they let them out, trap them again and take them to the pound, keep doing it if they don't listen, they'll probably get sick of paying for the bill.
Shoot the ****ers out bush, tho.



gandal88 said:


> again feral is not someones pet. that cat is loved and cared for and is far from been a feral animal


You would think, cat lovers, being so in love with their cats and wanting no harm to them, wouldn't even let them outside. What with all the dangers, (Cars, vens, other cats, aussie python members, etc.)


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## Chris1 (Oct 17, 2011)

so native animal killing aside,..this is a question for all the irresponsible cat owners defending their horrible pests on this thread,...

how many cat owners would be happy if i collect all the cat crap and start flinging it randomly at their hoses, piss all over their bbq area every night so they can spend half their weekend cleaning up a mess that shouldnt eb there,..

one of the aviary snakes ends up losing teeth from smashing the mesh thanks to the neighbourhood cats, ive put obstacle up to deter her from sitting against the mesh so she cant strike at anythign that goes past, but still, i can only deter her, not stop her.

i cant keep my lizards in outdoor pits, even in sunning cages i have to keep a very close eye on them so my animals dont get harrrassed on my own property.

the pond were building will have to be covered somehow,...that shouldnt be necessary!!

why should neighbours have to deal with all this crap on top of trying to have a native friendly garden that cant be made safe for said natives,..?


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## Red-Ink (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Why is it the trappers responsibility to ensure that you get your cat, or any other pet back?



It's not... but as Michael said, it would be the decent thing to do. Even if they took it to the pound for the owners to pay the fine (to teach them a lesson) and then told them so be it. It just saves the "responsible" owners hours even days of worry and angst looking for their *pet*... (or not being able to locate which pound it was taken to and it be put to death)

If the owners don't care enough about that damn thing to re-claim it (pay the fine) and they put it down well then it's a win for you isn't it.

While were on the topic of responsibility since when is it the responsibility of people to go around killing their neighbours pets? (you don't need to answer we'll just be going round in circles)

There are some instances were the killing of the cat would be condoned (I understand this i.e. Colin's story)... but to not give the owner a chance? Well I'm with Michael there that's just a "redneck" thing to do....


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## cement (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Settle down Graham, it's getting too much into your head. The local Councils can't do anything about it, communities are largely ignorant to the cat problems, and YOU can't do anything about it either, i.e. anything effective. And that's why you're having outbursts here on a forum - that's all you can do about it.
> Abundant wildlife in our gardens in not a joke. We have skinks, tree snakes, water rats, butterflies, frogs, etc., in our garden ..... and we have a cat too. You are right in your last sentence, so maybe it's time to stop hating cats and start confronting irresponsible cat owners - not here at your keyboard; personally. Are you up to it?



I am quite settled michael, it takes a lot to rattle my cage.
These aren't outbursts my friend, they are rationally thought out posts that come from experience, which i am putting up here in as non hating way as i can. The only thing i can do about this scenario is patch up the animals and try to educate the people involved. So you are wrong again, I am up for it, and i do what i can when the times comes. This is why I am entitled to have my say here, more so then you are.. you see I am doing something about it. All you are doing is sitting back drinking piss and letting your cat wander in to others backyards... but that's typical of the contradictory way you do and see things. I had a couple of cats as a kid, I don't hate them, so i have seen both sides. 
Perhaps you would prefer if everyone was like you and just did nothing. I always get a good laugh at the assumptions you make about people on here, do you have some type of extra sensory perception which allows you to know how others live their life? Because it's not working LOL!


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

Chris1 said:


> so native animal killing aside,..this is a question for all the irresponsible cat owners defending their horrible pests on this thread,...
> 
> how many cat owners would be happy if i collect all the cat crap and start flinging it randomly at their hoses, piss all over their bbq area every night so they can spend half their weekend cleaning up a mess that shouldnt eb there,..
> 
> ...



Become a politician, member of local Council and do something worthwhile about the problem. Write letters to relevant authorities, lobby your local councilors, etc., if you feel so strongly about the cat problem. Letting your steam out on a reptile forum is waste of time.


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Chris doesn't need to do that Michael because bylaws are already in place for the responsible ownership of cats. 



Waterrat said:


> Become a politician, member of local Council and do something worthwhile about the problem. Write letters to relevant authorities, lobby your local councilors, etc., if you feel so strongly about the cat problem. Letting your steam out on a reptile forum is waste of time.


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

*typo*



cement said:


> I am quite settled michael, it takes a lot to rattle my cage.
> These aren't outbursts my friend, they are rationally thought out posts that come from experience, which i am putting up here in as non hating way as i can. The only thing i can do about this scenario is patch up the animals and try to educate the people involved. So you are wrong again, I am up for it, and i do what i can when the times comes. This is why I am entitled to have my say here, more so then you are.. you see I am doing something about it. All you are doing is sitting back drinking piss and letting your cat wander in to others backyards... but that's typical of the contradictory way you do and see things. I had a couple of cats as a kid, I don't hate them, so i have seen both sides.
> Perhaps you would prefer if everyone was like you and just did nothing. I always get a good laugh at the assumptions you make about people on here, do you have some type of extra sensory perception which allows you to know how others live their life? Because it's not working LOL!



Oh Graham, you really know me and you obviously know how and where I keep our cat, don't you. Your assumptions in that regard are but insulting.
Patching up animals is not helping the poor victims but does nothing to stop or prevent the problem, so don't feel so superior over me.


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## Chris1 (Oct 17, 2011)

so that means you'd be happy to have cat crap flung at ur house and pee all over ur bbq area and doors?
send me ur address, i'll send u some excrement, lol!! 

i dont need to waste more of my time on the cat problem, ive spoken to the council numerous times and even those people in the council that agree with roaming cats being banned cant see a solution to the problem. im just agreeing that its a great idea trapping cats and taking them to the pound,.....for all the above reasons as well as saving the natives,..!


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Chris doesn't need to do that Michael because bylaws are already in place for the responsible ownership of cats.



And they don't work because they're not being enforced. Maybe Chris could volunteer as an educator, visiting all cat owners in her suburb them how to be responsible. Then again it would be as effective as the Jehovah's Witness door knocks. lol


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

The owners will be educated when they either pay to pick up their beloved pet from the pound or have their cat killed.



Waterrat said:


> And they don't work because they're not being enforced. Maybe Chris could volunteer as an educator, visiting all cat owners in her suburb them how to be responsible. Then again it would be as effective as the Jehovah's Witness door knocks. lol


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

Alternative solution:

If you don't like stray cats and what they do in your yard, get yourself a big, dirty Tom with balls, sharp teeth and claws. You will never see other cat near your place.


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## SamNabz (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Alternative solution:
> 
> If you don't like stray cats and what they do in your yard, get yourself a big, dirty Tom with balls, sharp teeth and claws. You will never see other cat near your place.



So instead of cat owner's doing the responsible thing of getting a cat run, you suggest everyone else buy a dog instead?

I'd love to hear what ideas you would come up with for world peace, Michael!


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

SamNabz said:


> So instead of cat owner's doing the responsible thing of getting a cat run, you suggest everyone else buy a dog instead?
> 
> I'd love to hear what ideas you would come up with for world peace, Michael!



It's a black Monday, is it? I have no ideas for the world peace but it would be good if some people had more sense of humor .... even on Mondays.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 17, 2011)

I have trapped quite a few cats over the years and had them picked up by a council ranger.I feel no responsibility to try and track down the owner (and I wouldn't even know who they are anyway) as the owner quite obviously has taken no responsibility to keep their cat/s under control.




Waterrat said:


> My last world on this subject:
> One can not reason with serial cat haters. They think they are conservationists because they hate cats. But like all extremists and radicals, they're not taken seriously by the rest of the community.



Yet you keep coming back!


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## gandal88 (Oct 17, 2011)

SamNabz said:


> So instead of cat owner's doing the responsible thing of getting a cat run, you suggest everyone else buy a dog instead?



or you could all just accept the inevitable that people will not control there cats and get over it??? just throwing it out there.



Ramsayi said:


> Yet you keep coming back!



lol!!


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## Chris1 (Oct 17, 2011)

gandal88 said:


> or you could all just accept the inevitable that people will not control there cats and get over it???
> 
> 
> 
> lol!!



lol, and irresponsible cat owners will just have to just accept the fact that theyre endangering their own beloved pets because some people will trap their cats and take them to the pound. So get over that, lol,..!


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Yet you keep coming back!



Ya Rams, keep coming back because i am quite passionate about one thing ..... not so much the cats as per say but the narrow-minded people who post recipes how to trap or kill a cat (one tool even described how to best drawn them) or boast how many they have done. If you only "like" native animals, there is something missing .... and if you hate any animal (apart from parasites, etc) you are one sick puppy.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Ya Rams, keep coming back because i am quite passionate about one thing ..... not so much the cats as per say but the narrow-minded people who post recipes how to trap or kill a cat (one tool even described how to best drawn them) or boast how many they have done. If you only "like" native animals, there is something missing .... and if you hate any animal (apart from parasites, etc) you are one sick puppy.



Passionate you may be but some of your responses so far have been way over the top.There is nothing wrong with trapping roaming cats that wander into neighbours backyards yet you seem hell bent on throwing insults at people who do just that. So far you have accused people of paranoia ,called them hero's, idiotic, extremist,moronic,rednecks, narrow-minded,tools and sick puppies.For what all because they don't want cats,feral or domestic coming onto their properties killing native animals that these people are trying to encourage and help out.

No one else in this thread has attacked anyone about being self-righteous,narrow-minded, know it alls have they?

Bottom line keep your cat on your own property and there will be no issues.


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## gandal88 (Oct 17, 2011)

i have =P


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Passionate you may be but some of your responses so far have been way over the top.There is nothing wrong with trapping roaming cats that wander into neighbours backyards yet you seem hell bent on throwing insults at people who do just that. So far you have accused people of paranoia ,called them hero's, idiotic, extremist,moronic,rednecks, narrow-minded,tools and sick puppies.For what all because they don't want cats,feral or domestic coming onto their properties killing native animals that these people are trying to encourage and help out.
> 
> No one else in this thread has attacked anyone about being self-righteous,narrow-minded, know it alls have they?
> 
> Bottom line keep your cat on your own property and there will be no issues.



Ramsay, I have the same right to express my opinion as everyone else here, including yourself. That is how I feel about the issue and that's it, I don't mince my words. If what I said was too offensive, self-righteous,narrow-minded, or whatever you say, the mods would have send me a friendly PM. I stood for my principles, how did you contribute to this debate other that reprimanding me?


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

This might be a thread about cats, but the justification has been that cats are destructive to our environment, so surely we must consider other factors that are destructive when considering if trapping and killing cats is a worthwhile pursuit. 

This has been brought up a couple of times throughout the thread, but has been brushed aside, but a massive percentage of people in this thread are being completely hypocritical about saving our native Wildlife. Why all this talk of how destructive cats are to native animals, when humans are by far the most destructive of all creatures? We knock down their habitats to build our McMansions, pollute the air with our vehicles, clear the land to let our crops grow or our cattle graze, poison the soil with our pesticides and insecticides, excavate vast areas to strip the land of its coal and iron ore and the list goes on yet we are focussing on the impact of cats on the wildlife left in suburbia. Whenever someone has piped up and said that trapping cats will have little or no impact they have been shouted down and the sentiment of "every little bit counts" seems to win. If every little bit helps then there are a million other steps you can take that are less radical, have no impact your neighbours and would have a larger impact on the overall well being of our native wildlife and the conservation of their habitat, however this seems to be overlooked as a large number of you seem to like the idea of harming cats with the justification that you are just "doing your bit". 

If you live in suburbia, eat beef, drive a car or watch your 50" plasma TV you are contributing to the destruction of native habitats and the death of our native wildlife just as much as any cat you decide needs to die. I know I do all of the aforementioned things, and I'm certainly not proud of them when I think of the impact they have. We as humans need to take a long hard look at ourselves before we pass the blame onto any other living creature.


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

I like your post, there are alot of other major influencing factors that do significant damage to our native ecosystems. I think something does need to be done about all of them. 

But like you said, this thread is about cats, not those other things. I think it is a simple fact that if my neighbours know that their cats life is in danger if it gets out or that they will cop a fine, will encourage them to keep their animals locked up inside. 

And you are wrong. Like with toads in darwin and the Northern Suburbs and buffalo across the top end, if enough individuals pitch in and do their bit we can significantly reduce cat numbers.



ryanm said:


> This might be a thread about cats, but the justification has been that cats are destructive to our environment, so surely we must consider other factors that are destructive when considering if trapping and killing cats is a worthwhile pursuit.
> 
> This has been brought up a couple of times throughout the thread, but has been brushed aside, but a massive percentage of people in this thread are being completely hypocritical about saving our native Wildlife. Why all this talk of how destructive cats are to native animals, when humans are by far the most destructive of all creatures? We knock down their habitats to build our McMansions, pollute the air with our vehicles, clear the land to let our crops grow or our cattle graze, poison the soil with our pesticides and insecticides, excavate vast areas to strip the land of its coal and iron ore and the list goes on yet we are focussing on the impact of cats on the wildlife left in suburbia. Whenever someone has piped up and said that trapping cats will have little or no impact they have been shouted down and the sentiment of "every little bit counts" seems to win. If every little bit helps then there are a million other steps you can take that are less radical, have no impact your neighbours and would have a larger impact on the overall well being of our native wildlife and the conservation of their habitat, however this seems to be overlooked as a large number of you seem to like the idea of harming cats with the justification that you are just "doing your bit".
> 
> If you live in suburbia, eat beef, drive a car or watch your 50" plasma TV you are contributing to the destruction of native habitats and the death of our native wildlife just as much as any cat you decide needs to die. I know I do all of the aforementioned things, and I'm certainly not proud of them when I think of the impact they have. We as humans need to take a long hard look at ourselves before we pass the blame onto any other living creature.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> And you are wrong. Like with toads in darwin and the Northern Suburbs and buffalo across the top end, if enough individuals pitch in and do their bit we can significantly reduce cat numbers.



I don't disagree with that idea in my post, I agree that if enough people were to get involved you would see significantly reduced numbers of cats, my point is we should be getting involved in other more productive measures.


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## rhysmachine101 (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm right there with you, ryanm. Well said! 
Not that some people will take that on-board and have a good hard think about it. But what can you do? People love to irrationally hate things. 
Human nature I guess.
It is kinda annoying that they wont admit that their hatred IS irrational and keep trying to justify it.
Just admit it- you hate cats for no real reason.

I'm going to throw one out there... I hate dogs! Thats right; I HATE DOGS!
They are smelly, slobbery creatures who are allowed to roam by their owners and they KILL native wildlife! (hands up who hasn't seen a dog chewing on a blue-tongue, before?)
Not only that, but they attack humans and kill kids in their own houses! (which cats cannot be accused of.)
I therefore conclude that every dog I see off its own property- without a responsible owner in tow- will be trapped and sent to the pound and hopefully put down. 
Hey, I might even go super-bogan on their asses and shoot them or maybe even bludgeon them to death. 
They are not on their own property- therefore they are feral and I have a moral obligation to eliminate the threat to our native wildlife and especially our kids!
Christ, you could justify just about anything with this reasoning couldn't you?
Ta,
Newly-Dog-Hating-Rhys.


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## killimike (Oct 17, 2011)

rhysmachine101 said:


> I therefore conclude that every dog I see off its own property- without a responsible owner in tow- will be trapped and sent to the pound and hopefully put down.



The total lack of a rational argument in the rest of the post aside, I agree with this sentiment of your dog hating straw man. Except for the hopefully put down bit. Stray dogs are a problem. Only thing is, no reasonable person says their dogs should be allowed to roam and pee and crap wherever. That's been the whole argument with cats in this thread. So analogy fail 

From someone who looks after four cats and a dog.


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## Cockney_Red (Oct 17, 2011)

Poor Pussy


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## rhysmachine101 (Oct 17, 2011)

killimike said:


> The total lack of a rational argument in the rest of the post aside, I agree with this sentiment of your dog hating straw man. Except for the hopefully put down bit. Stray dogs are a problem. Only thing is, no reasonable person says their dogs should be allowed to roam and pee and crap wherever. That's been the whole argument with cats in this thread. So analogy fail
> 
> From someone who looks after four cats and a dog.



My entire post was a satire- the point (which you might have missed) was that there WAS no rational argument. For cats either.
No *reasonable, *_responsible_ person believes that their CATS should be allowed to roam free to pee and crap wherever, either. So analogy win. 
Although, I must admit that a lot more people stupidly believe so.

From someone who owns a cat and two dogs.


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## Colin (Oct 17, 2011)

yes killimike thats it in a nutshell.. its not a cats fault or a dogs fault if they are left to roam where ever and instinctively kiill native animals.. 
Its THEIR SELFISH IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS FAULT.. 

the sooner legislation is introduced to make it law to keep cats on there own property like dogs the better in my opinion.


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## killimike (Oct 17, 2011)

rhysmachine101 said:


> My entire post was a satire- the point (which you might have missed) was that there WAS no rational argument. For cats either.
> No *reasonable, *_responsible_ person believes that their CATS should be allowed to roam free to pee and crap wherever, either. So analogy win.
> Although, I must admit that a lot more people stupidly believe so.
> 
> From someone who owns a cat and two dogs.



It was very obvious that you were caricaturing the people holding the opposite view to yourself. What did you think I meant by strawman? The fail comes in when the supposedly analogous case, that you are making sound as extreme as possible so people will see that their *own* position is inconsistent/not tenable, is *actually something that the other side already agrees with. *Stray dogs should be taken to the pound? Why would you think people who trap stray cats would have a problem with that?


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## rhysmachine101 (Oct 17, 2011)

Because a lot of people who trap stray cats wouldn't agree with it- dog comes into their yard, they give it a pat and play with it a little then send it on its way. Cat does the same thing- they shoo it away call the pound or try to trap or kill it.
It happens- I'm sure we've all seen this hypocrisy in action.

In my original post I was saying that people were using this native wildlife moral argument as a cover for their irrational hatred for cats- this is what the rest of the post was about.
So I'm saying that: no, not all of the 'other side' would agree with me, in practice. 
In theory, sure, they'll pipe in and say- 'of course we'd do the same for dogs as for cats'- but lets be honest, there is a sizable percentage that wouldn't.

Edit: I've honestly never heard of the strawman expression before- so my mistake there, for that, you have my apology.


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## killimike (Oct 17, 2011)

rhysmachine101 said:


> Because a lot of people who trap stray cats wouldn't agree with it- dog comes into their yard, they give it a pat and play with it a little then send it on its way. Cat does the same thing- they shoo it away call the pound or try to trap or kill it.
> It happens- I'm sure we've all seen this hypocrisy in action.
> 
> In my original post I was saying that people were using this native wildlife moral argument as a cover for their irrational hatred for cats- this is what the rest of the post was about.
> ...



Thanks for clarifying your position! I still disagree, but it's a free country..... so far  

I dunno if it's fair to just say that people who trap cats are hypocrites, and are providing justifications for their behaviour that they do not truly believe, despite any explicit protestations they may make to the contrary. That right there is a way to argue for absolutely anything, which was what you said about cat trappers and their arguments in your earlier post.

If a dog appeared in my backyard, I guarantee 100% I would not pat it and send it on its way. *I would assume it got there by mistake*. There's the difference between dogs and cats again, the same assumption would not be there for a cat. Most of the time it would have been allowed to roam. Another reason why the analogy doesn't hold, the situations are dissimilar.

So I still think from looking at it that the structure of your original post suggests that you were making an argument from analogy coupled with a dose of exaggeration. But then again, I'm just procrastinating right now, so don't take me too seriously


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

I won't tell the story but i am not a hypocrite.



rhysmachine101 said:


> Because a lot of people who trap stray cats wouldn't agree with it- dog comes into their yard, they give it a pat and play with it a little then send it on its way. Cat does the same thing- they shoo it away call the pound or try to trap or kill it.
> It happens- I'm sure we've all seen this hypocrisy in action.
> 
> In my original post I was saying that people were using this native wildlife moral argument as a cover for their irrational hatred for cats- this is what the rest of the post was about.
> ...


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

Wow, I am still suprised to see this thread still going, thanks moderators and members for your responsible posts. At the end of the day I am going to continue what I am doing (2 cats). Call me everyname under the sun (the fact this obviously frusturates you, pleases me. Maybe that is the redneck, moronic and all other insults coming out). knowing that I now have potentially saved hundreds of native animals from a certain death and not to mention quiter nights of sleep and hopefully educating an IRRESPONSABLE PET OWNER.
Oh and Waterrat I honestly dont what is easier to bait, the cats or you?

PHave a nice day all.


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

You have a nice day too champion.


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 17, 2011)

killimike said:


> If a dog appeared in my backyard, I guarantee 100% I would not pat it and send it on its way. *I would assume it got there by mistake*. There's the difference between dogs and cats again, the same assumption would not be there for a cat. Most of the time it would have been allowed to roam. Another reason why the analogy doesn't hold, the situations are dissimilar.


I assume you didn't see my post about my neighbours indoor cat that escaped from its crate on the way to the vet, by accident, after never ever being outside before. Their biggest worry was cat haters killing it. My cat escaped once when someone didn't latch the back door properly, it has seizures so it was quite a worry. When it returned the next day it could hardly walk and had a lovely wound on it's head from some kind of blunt object. This is what happens when people take the law into there own hands. My cat had seizures everyday for over a week after that because some heartless piece of dirt decided it was just an abandoned or uncared for stray.


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> You have a nice day too champion.



:lol:


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Jeffa do you have any full pics of that trap? I'll have a crack at making one.

It probably got hit by a car or fell off something. Cats are really hard to beat with a blunt object, they move too dang fast.



KaotikJezta said:


> I assume you didn't see my post about my neighbours indoor cat that escaped from its crate on the way to the vet, by accident, after never ever being outside before. Their biggest worry was cat haters killing it. My cat escaped once when someone didn't latch the back door properly, it has seizures so it was quite a worry. When it returned the next day it could hardly walk and had a lovely wound on it's head from some kind of blunt object. This is what happens when people take the law into there own hands. My cat had seizures everyday for over a week after that because some heartless piece of dirt decided it was just an abandoned or uncared for stray.


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Jeffa do you have any full pics of that trap? I'll have a crack at making one.
> 
> It probably got hit by a car or fell off something. Cats are really hard to beat with a blunt object, they move too dang fast.



No worries Gordo, will send pics soon.


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Cheers bro!


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 17, 2011)

My cat doesn't move that fast, he is a little unco, and the vet said it looked like it was most likely done with a hammer. I assume they hit it, cat went into a seizure and they left it for dead. He can't even hunt because of his coordination problems, though I doubt people in my area kill cats because they hunt, more likely for fun.


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Sounds like your cat would make for the start of a breeding program. A pet cat for those who are conservationists at heart but still crave the attention of a putty tat! 



KaotikJezta said:


> My cat doesn't move that fast, he is a little unco, and the vet said it looked like it was most likely done with a hammer. I assume they hit it, cat went into a seizure and they left it for dead. He can't even hunt because of his coordination problems, though I doubt people in my area kill cats because they hunt, more likely for fun.


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

Hi all this is just a something I picked up off youtube for making a basic trap, works in the same way mine does execpt mine is all caged metal, and is spring loaded unlike this drop door method. How to make a homemade box trap - YouTube

Cheers 

Will post pics of my cage one soon.


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## killimike (Oct 17, 2011)

KaotikJezta said:


> I assume you didn't see my post about my neighbours indoor cat that escaped from its crate on the way to the vet, by accident, after never ever being outside before. Their biggest worry was cat haters killing it. My cat escaped once when someone didn't latch the back door properly, it has seizures so it was quite a worry. When it returned the next day it could hardly walk and had a lovely wound on it's head from some kind of blunt object. This is what happens when people take the law into there own hands. My cat had seizures everyday for over a week after that because some heartless piece of dirt decided it was just an abandoned or uncared for stray.



I did read your post, and thought about including a response in my post, but it was already long. But since I haven't started work yet.... 

You do raise a valid point, some cats are out and about because they accidentally escaped. This number is a tiny one compared to the number of cats that are let to roam. I don't think you'd dispute this? But I'm guessing you would say it's not a good policy to shoot first and ask questions later, so to speak. Given the tiny percentage of any wandering cats that are accidental escapees, I have to say that I don't believe it warrants treating all roaming cats as potentially someone's accidentally escaped beloved pet.

That is not to say that I would see a cat with a collar with a name tag that said "My name is Mittens, if you find me please cal my owner on 123344567 because I must have escaped", and treat it like any old feral. I never claimed to have a one size fits all policy. Likewise, trapping cats does not mean condoning random bashing of cats, I'm sorry to hear that that happened to your cat. In suburbia, take them to the pound I say. If you have lost a cat, you will check at the pound. Ferals out bush is a different story.

Like I say, I look after four cats and rather like cats on the whole. But when so many cats are left to roam, and do cause so much trouble, and so many people maintain that right to allow their cats to roam, the reasonable presumption is that a cat is not an escapee absent other evidence.



waruikazi said:


> Sounds like your cat would make for the start of a breeding program. A pet cat for those who are conservationists at heart but still crave the attention of a putty tat!



Not if it's an acquired characteristic Gordo 

I hate to hear of incidences of pointless cruelty against animals, and I think it's a disturbed person who actually does this sort of thing. 

But I don't think it's a valid argument against trapping and removal of pest animals.


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## cement (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Oh Graham, you really know me and you obviously know how and where I keep our cat, don't you. Your assumptions in that regard are but insulting.
> Patching up animals is not helping the poor victims but does nothing to stop or prevent the problem, so don't feel so superior over me.



Ok Michael, I can copy and paste it if you like, but you did say earlier that YOUR cat ended up in someones freezer. Remember? that actually boils down to you having a wandering cat. Its not an assumption, YOU wrote it here.

Patching up the animals does help them. The ones that live get another chance to breed. 

I know it doesn't help the "problem" (problem being stupid people with wandering cats), if you read my posts earlier i state that trying to educate these people is like talking to a brick wall, (similar to you really) when you go out to pick these animals up.
As for feeling superior over you, you have nailed it there mike. Your superiority complex is WAYYY bigger then mine. i guess that's the reason i actually work hands on with my local wildlife, and you don't. Because you know so much better.

For the record, i don't trap or kill cats, I do however look after the victims and release them if they survive. That's it, no more , no less. i don't want recognition, or anything from anyone. i couldn't give a flying rats A hole what a person thinks of me either way, i have nothing to prove, and don't feel the need to prove anything, except tell it how it is. i am not a young up and coming "herper" that needs to suck up to anyone, so if i offend you then maybe you aren't accepting your role in the way this thread is going.

I have much more interesting things to do then carry on with this crap, so I'll see you on the other side.


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

Here you are mate.

View attachment 222187


If you need any more pics let us know. Ank keep us posted if you start making one.

Cheers. View attachment 222189


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Ah man, links didn't work Jeffa!


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 17, 2011)

A cat outside has to to be classed as feral. 

In a lot of places its against the law for them to wander, this makes a cat wandering a feral cal by definition according to the law.

In my area on the peninsula we dispose of feral cats because every one you get rid of means less native animals taken. If your trapped cat is a pet it will be collected by the owner from the pound, If not, it will be rehomed or euthed.

I cant believe the comments relateing to it being to late to do anything. 

For every cat removed you are saving some native animals. 
I love cats and think they are beautiful animals but i love our natives more and if i think your pussy is feral it is in peril.


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## HoffOff (Oct 17, 2011)

gandal88 said:


> or you could all just accept the inevitable that people will not control there cats and get over it??? just throwing it out there.


Then get over the fact people will trap, pound and eventually if you don't pay you're fines, mr whiskers will be put down.
x0x0



ssssnakeman said:


> if i think your pussy is feral it is in peril.


Gold. hahahaha


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

hope this works.


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

KaotikJezta said:


> I know it is illegal in some council areas, like mine, for cats to be out after dusk. I also know you are allowed to catch said cats but I don't think it is legal to shoot them, thats just you taking the law into your own hands. If I am wrong please post a link showing me where it says you are allowed to shoot someones pet.




Its not up to me to do your research for you.
If you dont believe me, how about you look it up,
and if the law has been changed in the last few years.
You can then post a link correcting me, if Im wrong that is.

Until then, I just got another,
What do you think happened to this one?


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> Its not up to me to do your research for you.
> If you dont believe me, how about you look it up,
> and if the law has been changed in the last few years.
> You can then post a link correcting me, if Im wrong that is.
> ...



A. If it was a feral than it got euthed
B. A pet whos owner was irresponsible and did not care? euthed or rehomed
C. An owner who hopfully learn their lesson, stays inside to the end of their days.

Win all around.


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Ya Rams, keep coming back because i am quite passionate about one thing ..... not so much the cats as per say but the narrow-minded people who post recipes how to trap or kill a cat (one tool even described how to best drawn them) or boast how many they have done. If you only "like" native animals, there is something missing .... and if you hate any animal (apart from parasites, etc) you are one sick puppy.



Ok Michael,
I breed my own Rats and Rabbits as feeders for my reptiles,
All my Rodents are kept in lab tubs in my garage, my garage does not have a door on it as its at the back of my property behind a gate.
The Bunnies are in secured cages in my back yard.

Do you have any idea how many animals I have lost to neighborhood cats coming into my yard at night?

Now I have a huge respect for owners that keep their cats locked up.
If a cat owner is responsible enough to keep their loved pet save, I have no issue.

I am responsible enough to keep my rats secured,
Im sure if some of my rats got out and wandered onto the neighbors
property, they would be poisoned.

I dont hate cats, they have their place.
I am however RESPONSIBLE for the well being of my reptiles food.

If I trap a cat on my property, It has no right to be there and I will KILL IT.

If you think that makes me a sick puppy, get you head out of your own.....


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

This thread sickens me now. Give yourselves medals all you heroes and .......


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

And you guys probably wonder why snake and reptile keepers have a bad reputation in public, no one in there right mind thinks if they find a cat on their property they have the right to kill it on the spot.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> Its not up to me to do your research for you.
> If you dont believe me, how about you look it up,
> and if the law has been changed in the last few years.
> You can then post a link correcting me, if Im wrong that is.
> ...



Hopefully the decent thing and taken to the pound for the owners to collect or not collect....


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

I have pictured 3 Wedged Blazed Rats, one Mink, one Cinnamon and an Agouti.
These rats get sold to the pet trade, people pay me $30 a rat to keep as a pets.
Is a cats life more important than one of these rats?

If one of my neighbors lets their cat out of a night and it ***** my lab tubs over killing a few dozen rats.
What am I to do?

When I started trapping Cats, I took them to the pound.
I caught the same Cat 3 times over a few months, the owner paid the fine twice and didnt learn.
The 3rd time I made sure the cat would never return.
Now, no cat returns to my property.

What you dont understand Michael, THIS IS MY HOUSE, If you love your cat keep it off my land.
I dont go and hunt cats around my neighborhood, I set a trap in front of my rat racks.
If a cat ends up in the trap, I will kill it.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> Ok Michael,
> 
> 
> If I trap a cat on my property, It has no right to be there and *I will KILL IT.
> ...



Woohooo... we have a genuine wildlife warrior on our hands. I thank you for the service your doing .


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## mad_at_arms (Oct 17, 2011)

ITT: more feelings are caught than actual cats.


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Hopefully the decent thing and taken to the pound for the owners to collect or not collect....



I have taken many cats to the pound at the start,
I have caught a few cats more than once, there was a cat I caught 3 times.
Why should I waste my time running cats to the pound.
If I can catch the same animals over, and the owners dont learn or care.




> Woohooo... we have a genuine wildlife warrior on our hands. I thank you for the service your doing .



Sarcastic, lmfao.


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## longqi (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> And you guys probably wonder why snake and reptile keepers have a bad reputation in public, no one in there right mind thinks if they find a cat on their property they have the right to kill it on the spot.



In New Zealand various rural councils offer rewards/bounties for feral animals which include wild cats dogs possums and ferrets, and there are very few reptile keepers in NZ
Bird populations in those areas are much higher than in surrounding areas

This discussion has zero to do with weather or not the feral animal trappers are reptiles owners but everything to do with conservation


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## Red-Ink (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> I have pictured 3 Wedged Blazed Rats, one Mink, one Cinnamon and an Agouti.
> These rats get sold to the pet trade, people pay me $30 a rat to keep as a pets.
> Is a cats life more important than one of these rats?



Well, that's a bit strange is'nt it. You seem to understand that people keep rats as pets. Some people will kill a rat on site as well. Are you OK with that as well? By the sounds of it you kill the cats cause their eating into your profit (literally). So a cats life is worth less than $30?

I'm glad you were taking the cats to the pound... continue to do so instead of killing on site, then I'm all for it.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> In New Zealand various rural councils offer rewards/bounties for feral animals which include wild cats dogs possums and ferrets, and there are very few reptile keepers in NZ
> Bird populations in those areas are much higher than in surrounding areas
> 
> This discussion has zero to do with weather or not the feral animal trappers are reptiles owners but everything to do with conservation



Key word in there is FERAL animals Longqi, this discussion is relating to cats in suburbia, it has even been acknowledged these traps don't work well on Feral Cats.


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> If a cat ends up in the trap, I will kill it.



I feel sorry for you andy, I really do but there is no point explaining why .... it's like the desexed dog, you know. You just never know, you may come to some harm yourself. Do you wonder around at night?


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> I have pictured 3 Wedged Blazed Rats, one Mink, one Cinnamon and an Agouti.
> These rats get sold to the pet trade, people pay me $30 a rat to keep as a pets.
> Is a cats life more important than one of these rats?
> 
> ...



Mate you have every right to trap a pet on your property and you have my respect but if you kill the animal without any disregard (not cool) If you own a snake and it got out and your next door neighbours put a shovel in it would that be cool? Are you abiding by your council rules? Are you breaking the local laws? This thread is about responsible pet ownership and hopefully educating the owners not to make the same poor decisions over and over.

Peace and we do not condone any unnecesary cruelty to animals than we have to.


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

Thats the thing, at the start I was taking the cats to the pound, only to have the same cat killing my animals again and again.
So No, I no longer take them to the pound.

Here is an example, a friend of mine had an outdoor pit with Bluies, Beardies and Turtles.
A cat jumped into the pit and killed all his lizards and one of the turtles.
He borrowed my trap, caught the cat and took in to the pound.

Over a few months he got some more lizards and his pit looked great.
Then the same cat got back into the pit and killed everything again.

The owners paid the fine and continued to let the cat roam.
My mate no longer keeps reptiles.

All my rats are secure, all my reptiles are secure, my dog lives inside (only goes out to the toilet).
I am a RESPONSIBLE PET OWNER.
If a cat owner is responsible and keeps their pet locked up.
Their pet is safe from harm and safe from causing harm.

If they are not responsible, I will not be held responsible.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

OK then, say instead of keeping Cats (an introduced species) as pets, we kept Spotted Quoll (Tiger Quoll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), Australia's largest native carnivorous mammal, the closest thing I could find to a Cat that is native. Would all of your reactions be the same? Or what if it was a wild Quoll attacking your rodents or your mate's lizards, would you just trap and kill it too because it shouldn't be on your property???


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## 69blottfilms69 (Oct 17, 2011)

WHy can't people just be nice for **** sake
We have had dogs come in our yard just coz it not my pet does't mean LETS KILL THIS DOG!
We just go around and take them back to the owners and they say thanks heaps END OF STORY
Not like if it comes back ill get my double barrel shot gum out
we have had cats what fight with my cats my house has no frences and if there is a cat we just clap are hands and it runs away and does't come back

Just hell ****** me off when people are mean to cats.


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I feel sorry for you andy, I really do but there is no point explaining why .... it's like the desexed dog, you know. You just never know, you may come to some harm yourself. Do you wonder around at night?



LMAO Michael,
Yes, I have been known to walk to the shops after dark,
Im 6 foot 1, 125 kilo and been kick boxing for the better part of a decade.
Im not to worried about harm coming to me, then again,
I dont go on other peoples properties to kill animals for no reason, CATS DO!!!

Once again, I have tried taking cats to the pound, DID NOT WORK.
What would you suggest?
btw I have also caught and killed a fox in one of my traps, anyone have issues with that?



69blottfilms69 said:


> WHy can't people just be nice for **** sake
> We have had dogs come in our yard just coz it not my pet does't mean LETS KILL THIS DOG!
> We just go around and take them back to the owners and they say thanks heaps END OF STORY
> Not like if it comes back ill get my double barrel shot gum out
> ...



I have had problems with Cats coming on my land and killing my animals.
Sorry but if your cat came on my land and killed my animals, I would not return it to you for it to come back and kill again.



ryanm said:


> OK then, say instead of keeping Cats (an introduced species) as pets, we kept Spotted Quoll (Tiger Quoll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), Australia's largest native carnivorous mammal, the closest thing I could find to a Cat that is native. Would all of your reactions be the same? Or what if it was a wild Quoll attacking your rodents or your mate's lizards, would you just trap and kill it too because it shouldn't be on your property???



?????????????????????????????


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> ?????????????????????????????



Well presumably much of the justification you and others have is that the Cat is an introduced species, hence not a natural threat to our native animals, but what if it was a native species that attacked your pets or your mates pets, would your reaction be the same? Simple question mate.


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 17, 2011)

Thats sad, and posting a picture of what is obviously a domestic cat and some ones pet is even sadder. I can't find a link but I will ring DSI tomorrow. I am pretty certain you need to hand them over to animal control unless you are in the country or you life is at risk, and as you are such a manly man I doubt that is the case. Whats even sadder still is it is all about your rats, that are just dollar signs to you anyway, and nothing to do with native wildlife. I feel sorry for your rats and your neighbours cats and you in a way.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

69blottfilms69 said:


> This needs to get deleted
> People are goanna have fights and it gonna g on till page 100000000000000000000000000
> people now just wanna kill..



Nah everyone is still being nice enough, haven't resorted to too much name calling yet. Heated debate is healthy.


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## gandal88 (Oct 17, 2011)

just a crazy idea take the cats to the pound say twice then i can understand been frustrated enough to do something a little more permanent. but jeez at least give people the benifit of the doubt also put a little note on the cats that you turn in sayin if i catch it again you wont get it back etc im sure people will start keeping their pets inside. also if people know who to come see you might just be a little less inclined to kill the on the spot


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## longqi (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> Well presumably much of the justification you and others have is that the Cat is an introduced species, hence not a natural threat to our native animals, but what if it was a native species that attacked your pets or your mates pets, would your reaction be the same? Simple question mate.



A number of years ago there was a major problem with rats killing water birds in a Sanctuary near Townsville
They couldnt poison them
I used a light enhancing scope and subsonics and knocked off about 40 one night
Next morning found out they were white tails that were doing the damage
We had to leave them alone
Used other methods that did not include death

I presume any native animal that attacked his rats would be treated as a native animal and released
But a cat is not a native animal so the question is out of context


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> Well presumably much of the justification you and others have is that the Cat is an introduced species, hence not a natural threat to our native animals, but what if it was a native species that attacked your pets or your mates pets, would your reaction be the same? Simple question mate.



If a Spotted Quoll was on license, due to its nature, there would be heavy restrictions on keeping one as a pet.
there would be major requirements on caging.

Yes cats have the same nature as a Spotted Quoll and if there were tighter restrictions on them, this thread would not exist.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> If a Spotted Quoll was on license, due to its nature, there would be heavy restrictions on keeping one as a pet.
> there would be major requirements on caging.



The Quoll was just the closest thing I could find to a Cat that is native, putting aside its nature, my point was that I think you would react differently if it was a native as a pet that was causing the damage, am I right?



longqi said:


> I presume any native animal that attacked his rats would be treated as a native animal and released
> But a cat is not a native animal so the question is out of context



But what would be the difference between a native animal as a pet and a cat as a pet? Shouldn't his treatment of both be the same if it is the same irresponsibility of the pets owner that has caused the damage?


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

> Whats even sadder still is it is all about your rats, that are just dollar signs to you anyway, and nothing to do with native wildlife. I feel sorry for your rats and your neighbours cats and you in a way.



1st of all, I now have a lot of Native wild life on my land.
2nd, the rats are not just dollar signs to me, they are a food source to my reptiles, and any rat pet sales, goes into the care of all my animals.
3rd, on a larger scale, if a big dog jumps the fence into your yard and attacks you dog, cat or child.
it gets put down. This is smaller scale but the same thing.
An animal that is not mine jumps the fence into my yard and attacks/kills my animals smaller than it.
4th, Dont feel sorry for me, it makes my laugh.



> But what would be the difference between a native animal as a pet and a cat as a pet? Shouldn't his treatment of both be the same if it is the same irresponsibility of the pets owner that has caused the damage?



Your are right to a point, if a Tiger Snake was on my property and got into my Rats for a feed,
I would let it have its fill (1 or 2 rats) and move on.
The thing is, I have had a cat come on MY PROPERTY, and kill 200 rats and 20 rabbits just for fun.


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## harley0402 (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Step 6. See a doctor and get rid of the paranoia. You just caught someone's loving pet and your action has done bugger all to save wildlife because there are hundreds other cats and there is only one of you.
> 
> Step 7. Give yourself a medal - you're a hero.



well said  lol


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> Your are right to a point, if a Tiger Snake was on my property and got into my Rats for a feed,
> I would let it have its fill (1 or 2 rats) and move on.
> The thing is, I have had a cat come on MY PROPERTY, and kill 200 rats and 20 rabbits just for fun.



I know this is a tricky issue and there is no right or wrong answer. 

I am sorry that you have lost so many animals to cats and I'm in no way condoning owners that let their cats roam unsupervised, however I just can't fathom you thinking it's acceptable behaviour to now kill any Cat that you trap with no warning to the owner. It's just not on.


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

I have noticed that some people take bits out of my post and are not seeing the whole picture.

The trapped cat in the photo I posted killed 100's of my animals.
The 1st time I trapped it, I did take it to the pound,
the owner paid the fine and continued to let it roam free of a night.

That Cat was now trap shy, It wouldnt go near the trap but continued to kill.
It continued to come onto my land, it continued to kill my animals.
I asked the owner to keep it in doors and off my property (that feel on deaf ears),

Due to it being trap shy, It took over 6 months and 100's more dead rats before I caught it again.

After all that, would any of you let it go anain, only to continue to return and kill your animals.
If you say yes to that, You are the irresponsible pet owner, not me.

ONCE YOU TRAP A CAT ONCE, ITS VERY HARD TO TRAP IT TWICE.
If you let it go, you might as well kill your own pets for fun yourself.


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> I know this is a tricky issue and there is no right or wrong answer.
> 
> I am sorry that you have lost so many animals to cats and I'm in now way condoning owners that let their cats roam unsupervised, however I just can't fathom you thinking it's acceptable behaviour to now kill any Cat that you trap with no warning to the owner. It's just not on.



Exactly. Dont let your pets roam unsupervised. I dont condome the killing of any pets unless its with state or local legislation. Across the board we have an obligation to provide proper husbandry and housing of pets under our responsibilites. Owning a pet is a priveldge not a right. If you cannot see the logic in this then I look forward to catching your pet on my property.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

In that case I can see your justification, you gave warnings and you gave second chances and the owner did not comply.

However, you have also stated now that any cat you trap will be killed. That's where you lose me.


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## Colin (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> The Quoll was just the closest thing I could find to a Cat that is native, putting aside its nature, my point was that I think you would react differently if it was a native as a pet that was causing the damage, am I right?
> But what would be the difference between a native animal as a pet and a cat as a pet? Shouldn't his treatment of both be the same if it is the same irresponsibility of the pets owner that has caused the damage?



a few posts back andy pointed out if we were allowed to keep quolls caging would be enforced to keep them restricted. and theres no validity in comparing a quoll and a cat because quoll owners (if your were allowed to keep them) would not be letting there quoll roam the neighbourhood at night like irresponsible cat owners do.. 

the argument is turning into whether its ok to kill the cats or not if they come on your property etc BUT the real issue is why cant cat owners be responsible and keep their pets restricted to THEIR OWN PROPERTY in cat runs or inside the house?? if this were the case then this thread wouldnt exist AND we wouldnt be arguing about if its ok to kill the cats or not etc.. lets not loose site of this issue

why cant cat owners keep their animals on their OWN property and restrict them - like snake owners do like rat owners do like dog owners (mostly do) why not?


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

ONCE YOU TRAP A CAT ONCE, ITS VERY HARD TO TRAP IT TWICE.
If you let it go, and the owner dosnt care (100% of cat owners in my area),
you might as well kill your own pets for fun yourself,
because If I let it go there is a 100% cance it will return to my house and kill again.

Where do I stop, do I sell up all my Reptiles, all of my Rats, Rabbits ect.
Do I not keep a single pet for myself because of neighborhood Cats.
Or do I make a stand?




> a few posts back andy pointed out if we were allowed to keep quolls caging would be enforced to keep them restricted. and theres no validity in comparing a quoll and a cat because quoll owners (if your were allowed to keep them) would not be letting there quoll roam the neighbourhood at night like irresponsible cat owners do..
> 
> the argument is turning into whether its ok to kill the cats or not if they come on your property etc BUT the real issue is why cant cat owners be responsible and keep their pets restricted to THEIR OWN PROPERTY in cat runs or inside the house?? if this were the case then this thread wouldnt exist AND we wouldnt be arguing about if its ok to kill the cats or not etc.. lets not loose site of this issue
> 
> why cant cat owners keep their animals on their OWN property and restrict them - like snake owners do like rat owners do like dog owners (mostly do) why not?



If you were a chick Collin, Id give ya a kiss.


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 17, 2011)

andyscott said:


> I have noticed that some people take bits out of my post and are not seeing the whole picture.
> 
> The trapped cat in the photo I posted killed 100's of my animals.
> The 1st time I trapped it, I did take it to the pound,
> ...



Thats all well and good but that is not the only cat you've trapped and you now have a zero tolerance rule meaning, if someones cat does get out by accident, say mine for instance, you would kill him without giving me a chance to reclaim it. The worst thing about that is, it is bad enough knowing your animal has been killed, even worse is when they just don't come home and you never know what happened. I think if you are going to kill peoples pets without giving them a chance to fix the situation, you should be man enough to take their dead pet home to them and explain yourself.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> a few posts back andy pointed out if we were allowed to keep quolls caging would be enforced to keep them restricted. and theres no validity in comparing a quoll and a cat because quoll owners (if your were allowed to keep them) would not be letting there quoll roam the neighbourhood at night like irresponsible cat owners do..
> 
> the argument is turning into whether its ok to kill the cats or not if they come on your property etc BUT the real issue is why cant cat owners be responsible and keep their pets restricted to THEIR OWN PROPERTY in cat runs or inside the house?? if this were the case then this thread wouldnt exist AND we would be arguing about if its ok to kill the cats or not etc.. lets not loose site of this issue
> 
> why cant cat owners keep their animals on their OWN property and restrict them - like snake owners do like rat owners do like dog owners (mostly do) why not?



Agreed the Quoll comparison was flawed, just the closest I could come with a native animal. My point was to see if Andy's reaction to a native pet would be different to an introduced pet, both subject to the same irresponsible owners.

I am agreeing that cat owners shouldn't let their cats roam the neighbourhood unsupervised and without responsibility for their pets actions. I'm just questioning the appropriateness of Andy's kill on the spot reaction and trying to see whether his actions are somewhat prejudiced by an underlying dislike for Cats (whether justified or not).


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks Colin, again well put. It is so easy for posters to jump on the how dare you thread.
Thanks for keeping this thread under the wraps of what it is about Responsible pet ownership. Everyone is entitled to opinions but at the end of the day abide by APS rules and local laws.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Thanks Colin, again well put. It is so easy for posters to jump on the how dare you thread.
> Thanks for keeping this thread under the wraps of what it is about Responsible pet ownership. Everyone is entitled to opinions but at the end of the day abide by APS rules and local laws.



Agreed, we have done well for the thread to last this long. The base issue is responsible pet ownership, but it must also deal with appropriate reaction to irresponsible pet ownership, as it is your reaction that started the discussion.


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## Colin (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> Agreed the Quoll comparison was flawed, just the closest I could come with a native animal. My point was to see if Andy's reaction to a native pet would be different to an introduced pet, both subject to the same irresponsible owners.
> 
> I am agreeing that cat owners shouldn't let their cats roam the neighbourhood unsupervised and without responsibility for their pets actions. I'm just questioning the appropriateness of Andy's kill on the spot reaction and trying to see whether his actions are somewhat prejudiced by an underlying dislike for Cats (whether justified or not).



but that is the whole point Im trying to make!!  If cat owners were responsible and kept their animals restricted to their own property then we wouldnt be discussing the appropriateness or not or andy disposing of them or trapping them and taking them to the pound etc.. 

thats the whole issue as I see it.. there is no problem with cats kept restricted on their own property.
the problem is with the irresponsible owners who dont do this and thinks its their god given right their animals can roam and do whatever.. these owners are the problem more than the cats..


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

I have no problem with Cats, I have friends that own Cats,
During visits to their house I have had their cat sit on my lap,
Andy has even patted it, lol.

My issue is, not a few, but all of the cat owners in my area,
let their cats live out side 24/7.
The cats within my house get feed out side, sleep out side, live out side.
I have talked to my neighbors until I was blue in the face,
they did not change their ways.

The mentality I have about it has taken years of loosing my own animals.
I have tried wires hooked up to a car battery,
I have tried using products that clam to rid cats off your property (smelly crystals, forget the name).
I have done the pound thing.

Ive had enough, Cat owners have their head so far up their own ....
They just wont/dont listen.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> but that is the whole point Im trying to make!!  If cat owners were responsible and kept their animals restricted to their own property then we wouldnt be discussing the appropriateness or not or andy disposing of them or trapping them and taking them to the pound etc..
> 
> thats the whole issue as I see it.. there is no problem with cats kept restricted on their own property.
> the problem is with the irresponsible owners who dont do this and this its their god given right their animals can roam and do whatever.. these owners are the problem more than the cats..



But we are never going to have 100% responsible Cat owners, just as we don't have 100% responsible reptile owners! So there always needs to be some thought given to the appropriate response to irresponsible ownership.



andyscott said:


> I have no problem with Cats, I have friends that own Cats,
> During visits to their house I have had their cat sit on my lap,
> Andy has even patted it, lol.



LOL, it's good to see we all (well not all, but most) still have a sense of humour in this thread.


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## Jeffa (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> But we are never going to have 100% responsible Cat owners, just as we don't have 100% responsible reptile owners! So there always needs to be some thought given to the appropriate response to irresponsible ownership.


Hence why I started this thread.


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## andyscott (Oct 17, 2011)

Im hungry, time for dinner be back in 30 minutes or so.
I feel like Dim-Sims.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Hence why I started this thread.



Yep, agreed and I don't have an issue with what you are doing. I think taking the cat back to it's owner (provided it has ID on it) the first time would be better than straight to the pound, but that's just what I would hope someone would do for my Cat if she ever got out.



andyscott said:


> Im hungry, time for dinner be back in 30 minutes or so.
> I feel like Dim-Sims.



Oooooooooook then?


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## Colin (Oct 17, 2011)

ryanm said:


> But we are never going to have 100% responsible Cat owners, just as we don't have 100% responsible reptile owners! So there always needs to be some thought given to the appropriate response to irresponsible ownership.



well maybe these irresponsible cat owners who let their animals wander shouldnt be allowed to keep them? if their cat gets trapped and taken to the pound and they get it back they should be made to get a cat run and keep the animal restricted.. and this should be inspected by council.

if they dont they loose their cat and the right to keep a cat for say a year like losing your drivers licence.. in this time if they illegally get another cat $2500 fine and cat gets destroyed and a 5 year ban on keeping them.

a courteous polite well meaning discussion wont sway selfish irresponsible people but if you fine them and impose restrictions maybe they will wake up.. they do it with driving licences why not with cats?


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> but that is the whole point Im trying to make!!  If cat owners were responsible and kept their animals restricted to their own property then we wouldnt be discussing the appropriateness or not or andy disposing of them or trapping them and taking them to the pound etc..
> 
> thats the whole issue as I see it.. there is no problem with cats kept restricted on their own property.
> the problem is with the irresponsible owners who dont do this and thinks its their god given right their animals can roam and do whatever.. these owners are the problem more than the cats..



I agree that cat owners need to be responsible, but, just as reptile keepers occasionally loose a snake/lizard, cat owners that are responsible occasionally loose a cat. To say any cat running around after dark is either feral or belongs to someone that doesn't care enough to be responsible is not taking into consideration the fact that accidents do happen.


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> well maybe these irresponsible cat owners who let their animals wander shouldnt be allowed to keep them? if their cat gets trapped and taken to the pound and they get it back they should be made to get a cat run and keep the animal restricted.. and this should be inspected by council.
> 
> if they dont they loose their cat and the right to keep a cat for say a year like losing your drivers licence.. in this time if they illegally get another cat $2500 fine and cat gets destroyed and a 5 year ban on keeping them.
> 
> a courteous polite well meaning discussion wont sway selfish irresponsible people but if you fine them and impose restrictions maybe they will wake up.. they do it with driving licences why not with cats?



I don't disagree with your ideas and I think that a licence style system for all pets would be a good way to go as long as getting a licence wasn't just a case of filling in a form, it needs to make sure you have some knowledge of how to care for the animal and what your responsibilities are.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> well maybe these irresponsible cat owners who let their animals wander shouldnt be allowed to keep them? if their cat gets trapped and taken to the pound and they get it back they should be made to get a cat run and keep the animal restricted.. and this should be inspected by council.
> 
> if they dont they loose their cat and the right to keep a cat for say a year like losing your drivers licence.. in this time if they illegally get another cat $2500 fine and cat gets destroyed and a 5 year ban on keeping them.
> 
> a courteous polite well meaning discussion wont sway selfish irresponsible people but if you fine them and impose restrictions maybe they will wake up.. they do it with driving licences why not with cats?



Best solution mate... win win for all.
The responsible owners get their cat back and learn a valuable or rather expensive lesson.
Dead cat if the owner don't pick it up, if they do they're under restrictions which would force them to be more responsible.


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## Colin (Oct 17, 2011)

I will add this.. Im not a cat person. but I respect their right to live and I respect a person right to own and keep them..I just feel that they should be housed on their own property inside or in an appropriate cat run so there no danger to wildlife and the cats in no danger from dogs or neighbours  etc.. its a win win situation for everyone if cat owners were a little more thoughtful and kept their animals on their own property so they can do no harm and be in no harm or danger.. everyones happy  

why is this so difficult? everyone would agree a large potentialy dangerous dog should be restricted to their property by appropriate fencing etc.. and if in public a lead and or muzzle would be appropriate.. its responsible and what people expect. the same courtesy to your neighbours your community and to our wildlife should be respected and enforced by cat owners and then everyone gets along and theres much less problems. simple solution in my opinion


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## ryanm (Oct 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> I will add this.. Im not a cat person. but I respect their right to live and I respect a person right to own and keep them..I just feel that they should be housed on their own property inside or in an appropriate cat run so there no danger to wildlife and the cats in no danger from dogs or neighbours  etc.. its a win win situation for everyone if cat owners were a little more thoughtful and kept their animals on their own property so they can do no harm and be in no harm or danger.. everyones happy
> 
> why is this so difficult? everyone would agree a large potentialy dangerous dog should be restricted to their property by appropriate fencing etc.. and if in public a lead and or muzzle would be appropriate.. its responsible and what people expect. the same courtesy to your neighbours your community and to our wildlife should be respected and enforced by cat owners and then everyone gets along and theres much less problems. simple solution in my opinion



Yes it is a simple, commonsense solution Colin, unfortunately commonsense is not too common these days.


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## Colin (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Wow, you top the list champ, all 125 kilos of intellect. Congrats!



 come on michael.. be nice mate  
so what about my solutions.. what do you think? reasonable? sensible? are you onboard?

this cat thread has made 20 pages!! with some good debate, tolerance and sensible suggestions from both sides.
this has to be an all time APS cat thread record


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## jedi_339 (Oct 17, 2011)

Funnily enough I think the name of the thread is also relevant to APS having a mature discussion on cats, not just the OPs first post 

perhaps Colin should Sticky this as a how to guide for cat talk :lol:


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## Wally (Oct 17, 2011)

I rather like this guys approach.

How to stop cats pissing on your car, The best cat video ever! - Craig Turner - YouTube


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> come on michael.. be nice mate
> so what about my solutions.. what do you think? reasonable? sensible? are you onboard?
> 
> this cat thread has made 20 pages!! with some good debate, tolerance and sensible suggestions from both sides.
> this has to be an all time APS cat thread record



Alright Colin, I sleep on it and I promise I am going to be reasonable.


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## Vixen (Oct 17, 2011)

mrkos said:


> Take a look at what's going on in Gladstone lately if they have their way and keep using cheaper risky practices our continent will be well and truly stuffed in twenty years



Indeedy, I live in Boyne but will be moving to Gladstone very soon as my partner just got a 4yr apprenticeship here - bit scary as I couldn't wait to move away! Absolutely disgusting what they are doing to the environment at the moment.


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## ryanm (Oct 18, 2011)

shunis said:


> deleted



Try reading the thread a bit more mate, it's not about Cat hate, its a discussion about responsible pet ownership.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 18, 2011)

Just got back from a callout where the tigersnake had been mortally wounded by a pet cat.

I had to euthanise it and i have some footage uploading to Youtube which ill post here later.

One cat less does make a difference and while i dont hate cats, 
I do hate the way they kill and maim our native animals.

Anyone who says a pet cat is less harmful to native animals than a feral is a frootloop.

This makes two cat killed snakes Ive attended in two weeks.

How hard is it to be a responsible cat owner?


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## Waterrat (Oct 18, 2011)

Assuming it was in Melbourne suburbs (correct me if I am wrong), how long do you think the tiger snakes would have lived before someone reached out for the shovel? Do people want tiger snakes in their back yards?
Just another angle to it.


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## waruikazi (Oct 18, 2011)

Again Michael, does that excuse the irresponsible owners?



Waterrat said:


> Assuming it was in Melbourne suburbs (correct me if I am wrong), how long do you think the tiger snakes would have lived before someone reached out for the shovel? Do people want tiger snakes in their back yards?
> Just another angle to it.


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## Waterrat (Oct 18, 2011)

No it doesn't. I did say "another angle". What's in the question - the life of those tiger snakes or irresponsible owners?


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## waruikazi (Oct 18, 2011)

And then another angle and one more appropriate to the topic of this thread, how many people want that cat in their yeard?



Waterrat said:


> No it doesn't. I did say "another angle". What's in the question - the life of those tiger snakes or irresponsible owners?


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## Jeffa (Oct 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> No it doesn't. I did say "another angle". What's in the question - the life of those tiger snakes or irresponsible owners?


 I really dont know Michael, The ammount of tigersnakes in peoples backyards is small fry to the amount of harmless native wildlife! If we are putting peoples lives at risk then maybe rattle off numbers regarding irresponsible ownership of potentially dangerous dogs. Hence the thread.


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## LucifersJester (Oct 18, 2011)

I'd like to thank everyone who can contributed to this discussion. It is always interesting to read peoples views on what some would deem a controversial subject. And cudoes to those who restrained from personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - and that's what makes a great debate. 

I personally see no issue with trapping a cat and taking it to the pound/RSPCA for 'sorting out'. No Chip, no return. I'm not so crash hot on the idea of '_trap cat, kill cat, 'dispose of' cat_', But I _CAN_ understand where people have had the same issue over and over going down that path... (not that I would)

I for one have learned a lot from this thread and it has also gotten me 'off my fat ****' (I can call myself that - no one else can though ) and looked into the rules and regulations around pet ownership where I live. 

Basically, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 18, 2011)

Dejavu, is that you.
i definitely dont want someone elses cat roaming in my yard,
but a bluetongue, snake or native bird is always welcome.


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## hypochondroac (Oct 18, 2011)

Alot of people don't even see the snakes in their yards. Cats on the other hand.


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## mysnakesau (Oct 18, 2011)

I can remember when I first moved out of home, a pair of cats yowled at my bedroom window for days. I went and bought this most awesome water gun, full pelt at the cats :lol: I couldn't see them very well but I heard them run. They still came back for 3 nights but after being pelted with water for 4 nights they didn't come back.


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## Jeffa (Oct 18, 2011)

hypochondroac said:


> Alot of people don't even see the snakes in their yards. Cats on the other hand.



And we all would like to think that the owner of the property would call a snake remover to handle the issue, just like the pound to remove any stray pets on peoples yards. 
Does not usually happen but should be praised when it does.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 18, 2011)

[video=youtube;ji0ITz_NPhI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji0ITz_NPhI[/video]
It's a coincidence that this was called in today, as well as a bluetongue, but the bluey was ok.


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## Jeffa (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks Snakeman for the post, terrible ending but a point that should be posted on a reptile forum. 
Question though, how many other species of animal would be injured or killed be that bird or mammal etc that would not be called for a licenced expert to help or remove in your area?


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## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

as said several times through this thread.. its about responsible pet ownership and to try and come up with solutions that are acceptable to cat owners, non cat owners and to preserve wildlife..

cat haters are no better than snake haters.. we all know how we feel when an ignorant redneck says "the only good snake is a dead snake" and "bash them with a shovel" etc.. put yourself in the shoes of a cat owner and think how you would feel if you replaced the word snake with cat.. some tolerance and respect is needed by some people I think.. 

basically we are all animal lovers.. and I include in that broad definition reptiles, amphibians, marsupials, birds, dogs, cats, invertebtates etc etc do any have more right to live than others? no.. all life should be respected and usually if an animal is a problem the fault can be traced back to humans eg: cane toads and introduced speces (who brought them here?) and relevant to this thread irresponsible cat owners. its not the animals fault its the people who have interferred with them or irresponsible owners that are to blame.. 

"hating" an animal doesnt make us a hero or any better than a snake hater so hate posts are unwelcome in this thread and any further nasty comments will be infracted.. be warned. intelligent opinions, suggestions and thoughts on solutions and responsible pet ownership are welcomed. thank you.

*Thread Poll..* just added this - Of the members who own cats.. how many have cat runs outside for their cats? Yes or No.

Its meant for cat owners only so if you dont own a cat please dont vote. It would be good to get an honest answer from cat owners to see the situation amomg members. no names of the people who voted will show as its not meant to be a name and shame those members who own a cat without a cat run. I added this to try and guage the cat owners with and without cat runs that are members here. and have the hope they may see the benefit of having a cat run both for the wildlife and the safety of their cat. so lets keep it to cat owners only and honest answers. thanks


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## Jeannine (Oct 19, 2011)

> _cat haters are no better than snake haters.. we all know how we feel when an ignorant redneck says "the only good snake is a dead snake" and "bash them with a shovel" etc.. put yourself in the shoes of a cat owner and think how you would feel if you replaced the word snake with cat.. some tolerance and respect is needed by some people I think_


but Colin i would NEVER EVER DARE come into a site, any site, and say THAT because i respect the fact people out there do like and love snakes. 
i understand this is a reptile forum but NOT just for snake owners as was pointed out to me beforehand yet i am repeatedly faced with members posting about giving cats lead injections, putting them in a bag with rocks and tossing them in a river/well/etc and how to poison them

i get upset that it seems ok for the cat haters to post these things knowing members like cats,hey maybe even SNAKE owners have pet moggies ever think of that 
i can respect snake owners but it seems that respect doesnt have to go both ways and that is a shame

and ill say it again man DOMESTICATED felines and wild cats still roam some continents, there are wild cats in Africa that hunt and kill native animals should these cats be killed and im not talking about lions, tigers, etc also MAN has killed off more animals then cats have, MAN has destroyed more native habitat then any feral cat has, also might i point out that elephants, rhinos, etc have dropped in numbers due to MAN not feral cats, not one single species can be directly linked to feral cats especially if MAN has been destroying their habitat and encroaching onto their land


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 19, 2011)

Reptile Country = Love it or leave it


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 19, 2011)

The damage the cat does to an already collapsing ecosystem can not be ignored, The problems may well be all man made but it is man who is responsible for the clean up. This involves the removal of the ferals, Im not talking about Asia and Africa where cats are a natural part of the environment.
Im talking right here in all our backyards and bushland.

In one day a cat can kill many different animals, and for every cat removed, you are saving animals.

Like i said before, i like cats and can see the attraction for them as they are beautiful animals.
Just dont want someone elses in my yard, scaring and damaging the native birds, lizards snakes and small mammals
I wouldnt kill someones pet if i found it in a trap but i would take it to the pound. .


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## Ramsayi (Oct 19, 2011)

ssssnakeman said:


> Just dont want someone elses in my yard, scaring and damaging the native birds, lizards snakes and small mammals
> I wouldnt kill someones pet if i found it in a trap but i would take it to the pound. .



This^^ I have spent a lot of time,effort and a fair bit of money setting our yard up to attract native animals.As a result we have heaps of different kinds of parrots,3 types of possums,lots of skink species and a few species of snakes living and visiting our yard.Last thing I want to see is some cat coming in and causing havoc.


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## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree sssnakeman and ramsayi. but how can we stop this situation and turn it around? I feel part of the answer is in educating cat owners to house their animals more responsibly (this is either inside the house and/or an enclosed cat run) so that they can enjoy their animals, they're safe from the neighbors and the wildlife in the area will have less cat predation.. It’s a win win situation for all.

I’m hoping our snake loving members who also have cats may see this as a positive step and if they don’t have a cat run, seriously think about getting one. If we can convince our wildlife and reptile loving members here that own cats then I feel that’s a good start.. maybe as I suggested earlier in this thread wildlife groups or wildlife authorities could speak to cat groups and put the situation and proposal to them (if this has not already been done?) 

I’ve said before I’m definitely not a cat lover but I respect others who are and their right to keep them. but as we have to keep other animals responsibly and house them responsibly so they are not a nuisance or a danger to others in the community or to our wildlife, so should cat owners be made to house their pets responsibly in this manner. letting them wander around the neighborhood is totally irresponsible in my opinion and just not on.. maybe we need to lobby our local members and government to amend the animal acts to include cat must be kept restrained to their owners property in a cat run to avoid predation on wildlife and them being a nuisance and problem to others in the community.


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## snakeluvver (Oct 19, 2011)

When we get a cat we may look into a cat run to keep my mum and the cat happy.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 19, 2011)

Colin said:


> *Thread Poll..* just added this - Of the members who own cats.. how many have cat runs outside for their cats? Yes or No.
> 
> Its meant for cat owners only so if you dont own a cat please dont vote. It would be good to get an honest answer from cat owners to see the situation amomg members. no names of the people who voted will show as its not meant to be a name and shame those members who own a cat without a cat run. I added this to try and guage the cat owners with and without cat runs that are members here. and have the hope they may see the benefit of having a cat run both for the wildlife and the safety of their cat. so lets keep it to cat owners only and honest answers. thanks



I own a cat and I voted NO in the spirit of keeping the poll honest...
I will say though the my cat is an indoor cat and very rarely go outside (as said before) and when it does it has a leash around it's neck attach to either my hand or the wifes. So no I do not have a cat run nor am I going to install one as I believe I am a responsible cat owner.

The way I keep my cat has been the main reason why I have been vocal on this thread about some of our members that have a "KILL on site" mentality... If my cat ever ends up in a trap/cage I can assure you it got out accidentally and will never happen again..... DONT KILL IT!


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## Jeffa (Oct 19, 2011)

Good idea about the poll Colin.

I will also add that if anyone has a cat run, I encourage anyone to post a pic of the set up as this may encourage people to consider making/buying one.
If you did make it maybe add some handy hints on here to help other people too.

Cheers


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## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

thanks Red-Ink and you definitely sound a responsible cat owner.. one other thing that would possibly help with small native birds is if cat owners had a collar with several bells on it around the cats neck the sound might alert birds of the cats presence.. only a small point but anything that saves (or may save) the life of native wildlife is worthwhile.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 19, 2011)

Ive heard that belling a cat dosn't help as the cat quickly learns to move in such a way as the bell dosn't ring.
This actually makes the cat a more stealthy hunter as it has to move slower. 
I must admit, 
i havnt seen any evidence of this 
but I have heard of belled cats that have bought home 
offerings of baby possum, bird, mouse and snake for their lords.

Using more than one bell might work.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 19, 2011)

For cat owners around Melb I would check with your local councils about laws regarding "free roaming" cats at night time. Some councils in Vic have cat curfews enforced at night and if seen your cat will be taken to the pound by the Rangers and you fill be fined. Whitehorse Council has this enforced. 

Seeing that cats are mostly nocturnal hunters this could be an avenue that should be pushed to make it a statewide (even Federal law). I know it does'nt help on what they catch during the day but i think it would be at least a step in getting cat owners to think about what their cats are actually doing to the local environment.


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

Irresponsible cat owners are basically ignorant people, often incapable of rational reasoning, so educating them may well be a waste of time. Regional Councils should set up strict rules (no more than 2 cats per household, all desexed, cat run facility, etc.) and *enforce* these laws. That, in my opinion is the weakest link - e.g. we have laws about barking dogs but the Councils don't enforce them, so the dogs bark their little hearts out day and night. Don't start me on that.

We only have one cat now (desexed male), He stays indoors after dark (no choice given lol) and hangs around the house during the day. He doesn't wonder to the neighbors because they all have dogs. Occasionally, other cats come into our property with the intent to challenge our cat but I find the garden hose very useful to show them the exit. It's not that hard. When Louie (the cat) was young and killed a frog, I minced up the dead frog and mixed it into his food. He walked around the dish, sniffed it, licked it for 2 days but didn't eat it. He never touched frogs again. We have plenty of wildlife in our garden as well as one happy cat and two happy, responsible cat owners. 

Colin is absolutely right when comparing the "good snake is a dead one" with the "kill the cat" mentality. Spot on!


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## Nighthawk (Oct 19, 2011)

Colin said:


> thanks Red-Ink and you definitely sound a responsible cat owner.. one other thing that would possibly help with small native birds is if cat owners had a collar with several bells on it around the cats neck the sound might alert birds of the cats presence.. only a small point but anything that saves (or may save) the life of native wildlife is worthwhile.



A good idea, but bells rarely work. I've seen cats hunting with bells on (my own, now deceased, in NZ), and a fair few simply adapt to rush closer to the prey. In the end it just makes them better hunters.



Waterrat said:


> Irresponsible cat owners are basically ignorant people, often incapable of rational reasoning, so educating them may well be a waste of time. Regional Councils should set up strict rules (no more than 2 cats per household, all desexed, cat run facility, etc.) and *enforce* these laws. That, in my opinion is the weakest link - e.g. we have laws about barking dogs but the Councils don't enforce them, so the dogs bark their little hearts out day and night. Don't start me on that.
> 
> We only have one cat now (desexed male), He stays indoors after dark (no choice given lol) and hangs around the house during the day. He doesn't wonder to the neighbors because they all have dogs. Occasionally, other cats come into our property with the intent to challenge our cat but I find the garden hose very useful to show them the exit. It's not that hard. When Louie (the cat) was young and killed a frog, I minced up the dead frog and mixed it into his food. He walked around the dish, sniffed it, licked it for 2 days but didn't eat it. He never touched frogs again. We have plenty of wildlife in our garden as well as one happy cat and two happy, responsible cat owners.
> 
> Colin is absolutely right when comparing the "good snake is a dead one" with the "kill the cat" mentality. Spot on!



I want to like this more than once. I was trying to phrase this myself just before but gave up, you nailed it much better than my attempts


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## FAY (Oct 19, 2011)

A friend had birds in aviaries. When they get disturbed in the night they freak out and crash into the wire and often kill themselves. He had a cat trap that he put in his yard. When he caught a cat, he put the hose full on for about ten minutes...let the cat go...he would NEVER see the same cat back twice. I thought it was a good solution and pussy finds out that it's backyard is much safer.

I also knew of a man who had a few acres and had chooks etc.. the neighbours two german shepherds used to wander around when they were at work. They would attack his chooks. He three times told them NOT to let them wander onto his property or he would shoot the dogs. He ended up shooting both of them and putting them on top of each other at their front door. The neighbour left and never returned. Thought that was a bit harsh.


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## littlemay (Oct 19, 2011)

Is it possible to alter the poll? I feel that honest answers might result in a biased impression given by the results; i don't have a cat run but my cat stays inside, always. If i answer that i don't have a cat run it sort of gives the impression that i am an irresponsible cat owner, but i am not.


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree with littlemay, I don't have a cat run either but my cat is an inside cat.


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## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

littlemay said:


> Is it possible to alter the poll? I feel that honest answers might result in a biased impression given by the results; i don't have a cat run but my cat stays inside, always. If i answer that i don't have a cat run it sort of gives the impression that i am an irresponsible cat owner, but i am not.



done.. theres a third option "no cat run but kept inside"


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## andyscott (Oct 19, 2011)

> Like i said before, i like cats and can see the attraction for them as they are beautiful animals.
> Just dont want someone elses in my yard, scaring and damaging the native birds, lizards snakes and small mammals
> I wouldnt kill someones pet if i found it in a trap but i would take it to the pound.



The problem there Baz, is that once you trap a cat and take it to the pound, the owner gets a slap on the wrist and the fine is paid. That cat will return to your yard, that cat will kill again, That cat Will NOT go anywhere near your set trap again.

Also on the cat bells for collars, it dosnt realy help the Tiger Snakes.
I didnt look at you you tube link, I know how much it would p... .. ..f and that would get transfered into my post.



> Irresponsible cat owners are basically ignorant people, often incapable of rational reasoning, so educating them may well be a waste of time. Regional Councils should set up strict rules (no more than 2 cats per household, all desexed, cat run facility, etc.)



Thank you Michael, that describes every cat owner in my area.
That is why I do what I do.


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## snakeluvver (Oct 19, 2011)

Colin said:


> if cat owners had a collar with several bells on it around the cats neck the sound might alert birds of the cats presence..


We tried that when we had outdoor cats in Dubai as they always caught pigeons, but it didnt work.


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## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> We tried that when we had outdoor cats in Dubai as they always caught pigeons, but it didnt work.



so a few people have said.. bummer


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## snakeluvver (Oct 19, 2011)

I think they move so slowly that the bell doesnt ring until its too late and they pounce.


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## cement (Oct 19, 2011)

That's right belled cats work it out. As for cats being kept inside at night... if you read my earlier posts i have already mentioned that cats are nocturnal hunters just as much as they are diurnal hunters. Day or night makes no difference. They must be caged 24/7.

Good clip Baz, that shows it exactly how it is. i notice that the owner only has concerns for his cat... and you (of course). Its a typical cat attack scenario, I know you were choking up having to look at him and explain his cats chances, but you remained calm put no crap on him and got out and did what had to be done. Thanks for putting that up mate, the truth and actual reality comes along at last!! How many times in a season do we see this? It is just as I described in my posts earlier, so good to see it appear on here, bad for the snake but maybe that snake has just changed the way a few people think, and that's a good death. Was that a night or day attack?

Cages for cats 24/7. No exceptions. Cages can be as big as you like, they can be your entire house plus. Screen in the verandah etc,etc. A cage doesn't have to be like a little jail, use your imagination and make it whatever you want, just make sure it works.


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## Kitah (Oct 20, 2011)

We just need more responsible cat owners. I love cats, and have four- they are indoors 24/7, _never_ allowed out unless on a harness with me. All four are desexed, vaccinated, microchipped, registered etc. The house is essentially theirs as there are toys, tunnels, scratching posts, and a huge 'cat gym' I made for them. 

They were raised as indoor cats and learnt to walk on a harness at a very early age- they know no different, they're safe, the local wildlife are safe, and my cats don't annoy the neighbours whatso ever. 

I know cats do a lot of damage to the local wildlife, can be absolute pests etc, but don't forget dogs either- dogs still have a natural instinct to hunt and kill, and will do so given the opportunity. You might be very surprised to know just how many wildlife (birds, reptiles, mammals) are brought into veterinary clinics I've been to due to dog attacks. People who let their dogs wander, kill wildlife etc. are just as a bad as cat owners. 

We just need responsible animal owners full stop.


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## 69blottfilms69 (Oct 20, 2011)

I know all my neighbours and they are cool with cats they times see them walking around and they pat them 
i fell really lucky where i live
about the run
i have 2 cats
they sleep out silde i live on 1 akar so they have room to do stuff


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## jedi_339 (Oct 20, 2011)

69blottfilms69 said:


> i fell really lucky where i live
> about the run
> i have 2 cats
> they sleep out silde i live on 1 akar so they have room to do *stuff*



I'll bet the native animals don't feel as lucky,

I'm pretty sure this thread is actually about the *stuff* your cats are doing......


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2011)

Kitah - you're right about dogs - remember last year a an in Cairns was charged with animal cruelty after shooting a dog attacking a group of wallabies. The man had done the right thing, and it was his neighbours dog. Unfortunately he didn't kill the dog in one shot. I can't recall the outcome of this case.

But, when you look at house dogs vs run around cats, I'd say the numbers favour the purely carnivorous cats. 

I know this is Australia - but also other countries around the world suffer at the hand of the domestic feline. Even your neighbours where I am, cats destroy the native wildlife. Our fantails are fearless (much like willy wagtails) and cats unfortunately are quicker! 

There's plenty of large flightless birds which are easy prey for the cats too. 

Numbers of skinks and geckos plus frogs etc... So we're not immune to the effects of the cat over here either!

If I could go back to when Europeans began inhabiting these lands I think I'd put up much stronger opposition to bringing in cats, rabbits, foxes etc! We'd have very different countries right now if that had happened!

But - we can't go back. So we're stuck with it. And the numbers of irresponsible cat owners probably out numbers the number of responsible ones. So it's not even a case of a few ruining it for the masses. 

Really, I go back to the first post of this thread, and I don't necessarily agree entirely with the method, I also believe that the hero (that Michael so likes to call him) did exactly the right thing! 

Though, in the long run, maybe it changes nothing... But if (and eventually it will) there is a change to the owner of the cat and hopefully their behaviour and awareness - then this is a success. Just have to change the world by one poor cat owner at a time!

Good luck to your crusade all of you who wish to make the word a safer place for all native animals!


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## Ramsayi (Oct 20, 2011)

Just been reading a thread on another forum that explains the attitude of a lot of cat owners perfectly.It's another reason why I feel no compunction towards trapping cats and having them shipped off to the pound.Basically the poster inherited a cat from their neighbour.

This is what they wrote
"We don't lock him indoors and is free to do what he likes (except at night)" 

"He's a good ratter ... particularly after the floods and we live near the city on a hill."

"Moved house, took cat. Locked cat indoors for 20 minutes before nagging got too much and let him outside (norwegian forest cat – really likes the outdoors). He sniffed around the house for about 10 minutes before he took off over the back fence and into the bush. I was pretty worried at this point.

Came home 3 hours later for feeding time. Had a quick nap before taking off outside to climb trees. He likes trees. Only problem now is how to stop him from drinking out of the chlorine pool."


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## Chris1 (Oct 20, 2011)

lol, doesnt surprise me at all Ramsayi,...

a guy at work moved from coogee to randwick, and his cat went missing. After 2 weeks he was all excited that his cat had been missing frlo 2 weeks, was hoping it wouldnt find its way home,..

2 weeks after that (so 1 months since it went missing) his wife found it crying in an alley and brought it home, he was so disappointed.

now the cat wont leave the house any mre cos its experience freaked it out and hes spewing that theres no way of getting rid of it without having to make that decision himself,...

while it looks like APS has mroe responsible cat owners than irresponsible ones, i doubt thats the trend overall,.....


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 20, 2011)

In the big cities like London the cat was always put out at night.
"dont forget to put the cat out" was the catch-cry, lol.
This was fine in England where rodents carried diseases and parasites ect and the native animals in the city were few and far between..
Now since white man has been in Australia, bringing all the European farming traditions and customs''
this part of cat ownership hasnt changed much.
Most farms, meat dairy and agricultural, have free ranging cats that do control rodents but also take a fair share of natives as well.
I think if a small part of the school carriculem could include a "responsible pet ownership" module a change would be evident in the next generation or so.


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## Waterrat (Oct 20, 2011)

Kuching (Malay word for cat) is the main city of Sarawak, Borneo, where cats are tolerated by all the local people (and visitors). You see them everywhere whether you like it or not. A great rehabilitation place for Aussie cat haters. You harm (trap) their cats and you meet the head-hunters of Borneo. lol


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Kuching (Malay word for cat) is the main city of Sarawak, Borneo, where cats are tolerated by all the local people (and visitors). You see them everywhere whether you like it or not. A great rehabilitation place for Aussie cat haters. You harm (trap) their cats and you meet the head-hunters of Borneo. lol



Aren't cats native to Asia though? If they are, then really, this is completely out of place - Cats are not native to Australia and they destroy native wildlife.

Cats are an AWESOME animal, I doubt many dispute that - but in their native lands they're even in danger - in their non-native lands - they're a pest. Huge difference Michael - HUGE difference!


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## Jeffa (Oct 20, 2011)

I went to Kuching several years ago, really nice place, people are friendly and it is cheap (recomend), Just dont bother looking for much wildlife in the city, there is bugger all.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 20, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> I went to Kuching several years ago, really nice place, people are friendly and it is cheap (recomend), Just dont bother looking for much wildlife in the city, there is bugger all.



Would'nt mind going... my sister in law went a few years back. She said they had a fantastic bird/zoo sanctuary (or maybe that was another place in Malaysia?). Anyway she also had nice things to say about Kuching, then again she does worship cats.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 20, 2011)

It's reasons such as this that I don't want any cat in my suburban yard.


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## Red-Ink (Oct 20, 2011)

Ramsayi... What's that bird in the middle?


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## Ramsayi (Oct 20, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Ramsayi... What's that bird in the middle?



It's a juvenile Channel-billed Cuckoo


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## FAY (Oct 20, 2011)

ssssnakeman said:


> I think if a small part of the school carriculem could include a "responsible pet ownership" module a change would be evident in the next generation or so.



I agree. It is very hard to change the mind set of the older generation BUT there is hope for the younger generation. Let's hope anyway..


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## waruikazi (Oct 20, 2011)

Lets hope the responsibility doesn't fall onto teachers, we have enough on our plates!



FAY said:


> I agree. It is very hard to change the mind set of the older generation BUT there is hope for the younger generation. Let's hope anyway..


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## cement (Oct 20, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Lets hope the responsibility doesn't fall onto teachers, we have enough on our plates!



LOL!! oh yeah poor teachers!
too many holidays!, short workdays! Good money, maternity leave etc etc, and when you are supposed to be at work you go on strike lol!


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## Jeffa (Oct 20, 2011)

Can anyone that owns one of the seven cat runs from the poll please post pics to show other cat owners and non cat owners what is involved.
Thanks


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## FAY (Oct 20, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Lets hope the responsibility doesn't fall onto teachers, we have enough on our plates!



There are a lot of 'teachers' out there. 'Teachers' are not all at schools.
There are 'teachers' that do wildlife displays at your zoos and wildlife parks. 'Teachers' can run your local Reptile Club. There are 'teachers' that go around to different schools and do wildlife shows, kiddies birthday parties...etc etc
These are the people that should be putting the message out there about your common moggy and the impact that they can cause to our wildlife when allowed to wander.....


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## waruikazi (Oct 21, 2011)

cement said:


> LOL!! oh yeah poor teachers!
> too many holidays!, short workdays! Good money, maternity leave etc etc, and when you are supposed to be at work you go on strike lol!



And sit on APS during the day! 



FAY said:


> There are a lot of 'teachers' out there. 'Teachers' are not all at schools.
> There are 'teachers' that do wildlife displays at your zoos and wildlife parks. 'Teachers' can run your local Reptile Club. There are 'teachers' that go around to different schools and do wildlife shows, kiddies birthday parties...etc etc
> These are the people that should be putting the message out there about your common moggy and the impact that they can cause to our wildlife when allowed to wander.....



That's right! I think the word you are looking for is society instead of teachers. But i think you are right, everybody is a teacher, just some of us get paid for it!


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## FAY (Oct 21, 2011)

or 'Educators' LOL


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> And sit on APS during the day!
> 
> 
> 
> That's right! I think the word you are looking for is society instead of teachers. But i think you are right, everybody is a teacher, just some of us get paid for it!



We all get paid for it Gordo - just some not financially...


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## Colin (Oct 21, 2011)

please keep thread on topic... thank you


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 26, 2011)

It concerns me when people want to define the term “feral" to have some other meaning. The word is clearly defined in any English dictionary. Like altering the meaning of any word, all that is achieved by this is to muddy the water for those trying to communicate. 

You also have to question the motives behind this. There is a lot of factual and emotive information attached to the word feral, particularly in the Australian context. The logical conclusion is that someone wants to ride on the coat tails of this mass of information with a false concept that does not belong there.

Blue 



I apologise that the following is not “on topic” as requested but I feel it is only fair that a reasonable right of reply be given. If this is unacceptable, please delete the original comment along with this one


cement said:


> LOL!! oh yeah poor teachers!





cement said:


> too many holidays!,short workdays! Good money, maternity leave etc etc, and when you are supposedto be at work you go on strike lol!


I did a number of jobs over a number of years before I got into teaching. These include: Factory Hand; Machine Operator - Grinding; Sheet Metal Worker; Taxi Driver; Bus Conductor; Brickie’s Labourer; Fencing Contractor; Public Servant – clerk Dept. of Defence.. Teaching is by far the most demanding job I have done but it was also the most personally rewarding. *Cement*, I wonder would you survive in the classrom, let alone cope with the developmental programming (catering for multiple levels), the lesson preparation and the marking required? As a teacher you take what you are given, and you cannot touch them and you cannot swear at them, nor can you even threaten them, irrespective of what they say to you. But you are expected to teach them and get results. Sounds good, eh?

I used to think school holidays were to give the kids a break. I now reckon they are to save the sanity of teachers. As for the money, have a good look in the staff carpark of the next school you see and then compare that with the local shopping centre. While you are doing that, bear in mind that a majority of teachers have done a minimum of four years of tertiary training and continue to do in-service training, both in and out of school hours on an on-going basis. As for your final comment – I really don’t think going on strike during holidays would get the point across, do you?

Blue


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## cement (Oct 29, 2011)

*Cement*, I wonder would you survive in the classrom, let alone cope with the developmental programming (catering for multiple levels), the lesson preparation and the marking required? As a teacher you take what you are given, and you cannot touch them and you cannot swear at them, nor can you even threaten them, irrespective of what they say to you. But you are expected to teach them and get results. Sounds good, eh?

I used to think school holidays were to give the kids a break. I now reckon they are to save the sanity of teachers. As for the money, have a good look in the staff carpark of the next school you see and then compare that with the local shopping centre. While you are doing that, bear in mind that a majority of teachers have done a minimum of four years of tertiary training and continue to do in-service training, both in and out of school hours on an on-going basis. As for your final comment – I really don’t think going on strike during holidays would get the point across, do you?

Blue[/QUOTE]

Oh Gday Blue. Yeah mate what i said was tongue in cheek buddy.
But, if i had as much training as you reckon you have to have then yeah , i'd go allright.


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## Jeffa (Oct 29, 2011)

Since all the responsible cat owners that claim they have a cat run but obviously could not be bothered posting pics on it, here is a link on how to make one. Dont think to many owners will give two hoots about this, but here it is

Building A Cat Run

And by the way the trapping of feral/stray cats is up to 3. 

Cheers


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## littlemay (Oct 29, 2011)

So because people aren't posting photos of their cat runs for your benefit you imply they have to be lying....


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## Jeffa (Oct 29, 2011)

littlemay said:


> So because people aren't posting photos of their cat runs for your benefit you imply they have to be lying....



I certainly hope not, and I encourage it

Anyone?

I will add, if anyone posts pics of their cat run you will pretty well be assured 5 likes.
Is this Incentive enough???


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## cement (Oct 30, 2011)

If you’re keeping a cat as an indoor cat, it is often nice to provide them with an outside run. Not only does this offer them extra space in which to exercise and a taste of outside life, while keeping them as safe as possible. A cat who has never know the outside will not miss it and as long as you offer your indoor cat plenty of love, attention and playtime they will not only do as well as a cat who has time loose outdoors, but better! They are highly unlikely to go missing, get themselves stolen or worse and yet far more common, get themselves run over or bitten by another animal - maybe even one who is carrying a disease.

For those who can't be bothered clicking on the cat run link here is the first paragraph. Doesn't mention the killing of wildlife, but we don't want to upset anyone.


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## viciousred (Oct 30, 2011)

There is a new system out actually, a rolling paddle wheel on the very top of your fence, i'm going to be trying a slightly different version using rolling pvc pipe, much cheaper than a cat run...


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 30, 2011)

That is a really good idea viciousred


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## viciousred (Oct 30, 2011)

Yeah the only Part I'm a little unsure of is in the corners, and as its going to be in sections where they join. will be doing some experimenting!


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## andyscott (Nov 12, 2011)

This animal would have come from a responsible cat owner a few generations back.


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## Rox.n.Lix (Nov 13, 2011)

I live in inner Melbourne and am so really really very very sick of cats in my yard. Our council has a cat curfew, so that cats must be kept contained between sunset and sunrise, but in the day my yard is free reign. WHY??? Why are cats the only pet that is allowed to just go wherever it wants?? NO other pet has this "privilege". 2 weeks ago I had cat meowing at my back door??? It had a collar with a phone number, so what did I do? I sent an SMS to the owner advising them their cat was sweet and pretty but I dont want it in my yard and please keep it contained. All i got was a reply saying: Who is this? 
A week later when their cat was still hanging out in my yard I messaged again to say it had been there nearly every day and if they dont keep it contained I will call the council. I am honestly SO sick of my back porch stinking of cat pee, and finding cat poo in my vege garden. 
I reiterate.... why are cats given this freedom? If I wanted a cat, I would get one. Are cat owners that ignorant to think that their roaming cat is just hanging out in the street not "trespassing" in anyone else's yard.
My brother's cat is inside 24/7. Its not that hard. More responsibility needs to be taken, and then any 'roaming' cat can be assumed as feral and dealt with appropriately (ie. collected and taken to the authorities). If a cat owner is responsible they will have their cat microchipped and it wont be put down without them being contacted.
If a dog was in your street or yard... hmmmm what would you do? (obviously i refer to inner city living here, i know things differ in the country)


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## daniel1234 (Nov 13, 2011)

I remember when I was in my teens, a friend two doors up adopted a mother cat who dropped her bundle in their yard. By adopt I mean they provided food for them. Was not long before there were cates everywhere and council brought in to get rid of them. Cats are fine as long as they are controled. Dont really care for them even though we have two-desexed, indoors etc...
Had a pic on another computer of a cat who met a wild python on some ones pergola. Wildlife won that time


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## Kitarsha (Jan 5, 2012)

I've got cats and have a cat run - i made it out of a 2nd hand orchid hot house - i have pics but not on this pc! On the cat-world forum there is a pile of pics adn ideas for home made cat runs  

I built a tunnel that goes from the house (wood house so cut hole in wall!! Lucky the Bank and i own it!) so the cats can access the run 24/7. The run is safer for my guys as my own dogs would be the first to try and snack on them if they got a good chance! Stray cats and ferals irritate the daylights out of me - it's not hard to keep a cat on your own property, you are exected to do so with dogs so what is the diff??

I want a cat wheel, but it's out of my price range at the moment. It's basically like a wodent wheel or solid rat wheel...but bigger


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## slim6y (Jan 6, 2012)

I'd love a wodent wheel for my wog too!!! So cute!!!

I'd also love to see your cat run.

Since moving to NZ the one huge thing I notice is how NZ is very strict about dogs but cats??? It's CRAZY!!

I am near Milford Sound right now and I'd get a $10,000 fine for taking my dog into the national park. I fully understand and respect that.

But funny enough, I can take my cat through there no problems at all. I might get told off and the cat might get startled and run away - but I'd not get a fine. 

I also read that cats in NZ kill as many as 100,000,000 (100 million) birds per year in NZ. Dogs... Well, they also do plenty of damage. I'm not contending that. But my pooch is usually well controlled. I know of NO cat that would come if you called it when it was trying to kill a wood pidgeon!

So it is sad in a way to see NZ so blaze' about cats and so tough on dogs. An article in the recent Southland Times talks of a lady who is sick of getting cats dumped on her property. She traps them and shoots them. She doesn't enjoy what she has to do - so she put a heart felt plea into the paper. Not sure anyone actually gives a hoot! 

I'd love to see NZ people adopt the cat run approach so much more. I'd also like to see your pics of the cat run you have built - very interested!


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## pythoncrazy (Jan 6, 2012)

*cats*

First of all I think this thread has caused quite a stir in people including myself.

I am a snake, dog, rat and cat owner, I do agree that if you own a cat keep it inside to protect our wildlife or if you want, make or buy a cat pen so that the cat can go outside and cause no harm, cause one thing is for sure if you have a cat and that cat can go outside when it feels it will KILL Australian wild life and that is not cool. 
So if only one person traps a wild or domestic cat and deals with it according to law good on them.


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## Herpaderpa (Jan 6, 2012)

I dont see why cat lovers are getting so crazy about this, he acted responsibly by trapping a nuisance straying/feral cat and followed council regulations. If the owner cares about the cat they will go check the pounds. But considering it was straying, I doubt they cared for it.

Excluding the concept of saving wildlife here... Everyone has a right to enjoy their own property... and to be free of the neighbours pets!!! I want to know the small pets I keep outside are safe from other peoples irresponsibly kept pets!!
After chasing the neighbours dog around our 100acre property for the last two days in a row... I am fed up!!! I will lasso the bugger next time and drop it off at the local shelter! When we move back to suburbia... same thing will happen to the local cats until the locals get the idea to keep their cats inside.

Michael... its fair to say if you let your cat stray then you yourself have chosen its fate.


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## Waterrat (Jan 6, 2012)

Dreaming of revenge


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## browny (Jan 6, 2012)

saratoga said:


> A feral cat is any cat that is not confined to it's owners property.
> I've seen lots of feral cats with collars and bells!!!



This comes from what exactly, huge difference between feral and domesticated of any species....the commonly used term for domesticated animals not on the owners property is 'STRAY'. when I am lucky enough I go hunting for 'feral critters' on properties and we make 100% certain it's feral before we take aim stray's are trapped and handed to the council, owners don't like it then take more care to keep them on their own property or pay the collection fee doesn't get any simpler.
Domestic cats outside doing what ever they like simply comes down to pathetic irresponsible owners I own a cat that very very rarely goes outside and when it does it's on a lead and harness (until the landlord says I can setup my cat enclosure) it's not hard it just requires some active brain cells. 

jeffa you did about the best anyone could it's humane and it's catching the stray's, no harm done (including you put a blanket/sheet over the cage) so I don't see any issue what so ever if everyone did this it would eventually sink into the think skulls of the careless and we wouldn't have the 'stray issue' I have relocated so not sure but I was under the impression every council would loan these traps for people to use then collect the full trap after a phone call.

one thing I am confused with though is 'hit cage with stick' and all the other comments....how would you feel if someone did that to your pets.


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## Waterrat (Jan 6, 2012)

browny said:


> one thing I am confused with though is 'hit cage with stick' and all the other comments....how would you feel if someone did that to your pets.



Rednecks will be rednecks.

Good post browny. It's intelligent instead of compulsive.


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## Erebos (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm a redneck!!


Cheers Brenton


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## matt74 (Jan 6, 2012)

If you were going to classify anyone as a "redneck", I'd like to think it would be the type of person that is too ignorant and irresponsible to care about the fact that their pet cat is out roaming the neighborhood. Not the type of person that is trapping said 'pet cats' on THEIR OWN property and handing them into the pound.


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## Waterrat (Jan 6, 2012)

matt74 said:


> If you were going to classify anyone as a "redneck", I'd like to think it would be the type of person that is too ignorant and irresponsible to care about the fact that their pet cat is out roaming the neighborhood. Not the type of person that is trapping said 'pet cats' on THEIR OWN property and handing them into the pound.



You missed the pint buddy. Sorry.


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## matt74 (Jan 6, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> You missed the pint buddy. Sorry.



I don't know, I just read the thread from start to finish and got the impression that the people that are 'all for' trapping stray pet cats on their own property are classified as 'rednecks' by those who oppose such action. 

Sorry, what I wrote is my feeling that I see it the other way around, really had nothing to do with any 'points' you may have recently made with other posters.....


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## browny (Jan 6, 2012)

just guessing but I think the redneck comment might have been aimed at the hurting or teasing comments I was referring too


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## matt74 (Jan 6, 2012)

snakeluvver said:


> So you trap what is probably a neighbours pet... then post about it on a public forum?
> Correct me if Im wrong, but thats a visit from the RSPCA waiting to happen.
> 
> Anyway, to all the redneck cat killers out there, just imagine that the owner may be a young child. Imagine how upset they'd be if they knew you took their beloved pet, I used to own cats and I know if someone killed my cat I would be mortified, and furious at the person.




Browny, this is the type of post I'm referring to, someone catches a cat on their own property and hands it over to the pound and they are apparently a 'redneck cat killer'. I went back up the page and read your comment and can see you don't agree with this. I just read the entire thread and put my thoughts on this down, that is all. I agree with your comment and the thoughts and actions of the bloke that started the entire thread. Just because I wrote what i wrote just after the posts you and a couple of others made doesn't mean I was referring 'those' posts, it's just where my comment ends up in the thread.


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## browny (Jan 6, 2012)

gotcha, sorry to fall into the dreaded internet trap and assume I knew what you meant.


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## Kitarsha (Jan 6, 2012)

Founds some pics just after it was finished -


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## matt74 (Jan 6, 2012)

browny said:


> gotcha, sorry to fall into the dreaded internet trap and assume I knew what you meant.



No need to be sorry browny, I didn't take offense and you've said nothing wrong at all. When I wrote my original post I did think it may get confused by the posts above it but, ohwell, that's the way the threads work. I should've been a bit more concise with my original post.

The rest of this post isn't aimed at you browny, just my thoughts...

Its definately a contentious issue. What gets me is the way the victim (the person who has someone else's cat on their own property in this case) seems to become the bad guy in society these days. And, all of a sudden, the person who is responsible for the whole situation in the first place (the irresponsible, lazy cat owner in this case) becomes the poor victim, it's absolute b######t.

Keep your animals secured, if they escape, if they cause damage to other peoples property, if they threaten the local wildlife, if they end up at the pound, if someone decides they are causing dramas on their property and euthanases them, well, there is no one else to blame but YOU, their owner. 

It sounds harsh I know but if you don't like it there's a simple solution, don't own pets.



Kitarsha said:


> Founds some pics just after it was finished -



That is awesome, my mate has something like this for his cats, just nowhere near as big. My frilly enclosure is up against an exterior wall inside our house and I've 'dreamt' of setting up something like this to allow him to go from his inside enclosure to an outside one. Dont know if he'd come back to his indoor enclosure once he'd checked out the outside world though. Surely someone has done this for a reptile.


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