# Sunglows are here.



## Snakestud (Dec 18, 2013)

Here we have the first caramel albino hatched this year in Australia.
this is also the key to producing a moonglow.


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## saximus (Dec 18, 2013)

Awesome. Who hatched it?


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## smithson (Dec 18, 2013)

What the hell is a sunglow? Nice lookin hatchie but


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## saximus (Dec 18, 2013)

smithson said:


> What the hell is a sunglow? Nice lookin hatchie but



A caramel (hypo) albino.

Is a moonglow an axanthic sunglow?


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## CHONDROS (Dec 18, 2013)

Nice did u get just the one
Also a moonglow is a hypo snow


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## smithson (Dec 18, 2013)

So it's not a mixed like jags?


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## saximus (Dec 18, 2013)

smithson said:


> So it's not a mixed like jags?



Yes it is. Albino is a Darwin morph and Caramel is a Coastal morph


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## the_brad (Dec 18, 2013)

Lol an axanthic sunglow and a hypo snow is the same thing isn't it. Moonglow!
Also I believe sunglows were hatched last year in aus


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## champagne (Dec 18, 2013)

Australia's first sunglow was hatched 2 seasons ago and people have already hatched sunglow a this year. Nice snake tho


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## saximus (Dec 18, 2013)

champagne said:


> Australia's first sunglow was hatched 2 seasons ago and people have already hatched sunglow a this year. Nice snake tho



Where does that info come from? Supposedly the first one in the world was produced last year by Precision Reptiles


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## JrFear (Dec 18, 2013)

I thought you can get hypo Darwin's? So you could have a pure sunglow Darwin?


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## CHONDROS (Dec 18, 2013)

I hatched a caramel albino 3 years ago


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## getarealdog (Dec 18, 2013)

Great stuff, me I'll stick to my boring Tiger snakes.


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## Snakestud (Dec 18, 2013)

I hatched it saximus.
i have more CHONDROS it's not the only one.
your animals that you hatched three years ago are polygenic. Not caramel albinos. You told me that you crossed a hypo coastal into albinism. It's not genetic. 

I bought these het caramels off simon stone a couple of years ago. He was the first one to prove out the caramel gene in this country. That's how I know this is the real thing. 

Yes saximus. Precision reptiles hatched the first sunglow in the world last season.
this is the first in this country if not the Southern Hemisphere. 

There is also a possibility I have pulled off a sunglow jag which would be the second in the world. 
Will post pics in another thread as it gets older


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## saximus (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks for coming on here to explain that [MENTION=39266]Snakestud[/MENTION]. Congrats on a very nice animal. I've always been curious about this combination/morph


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## andynic07 (Dec 18, 2013)

Amazing stuff, congratulations and I hope this thread stays nice because I would love to see more photos.


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## CHONDROS (Dec 18, 2013)

so a polygenic caramel is not genetic even when the pair produces them ever year and one i held back and breed to normal produced almost half a clutch 

if u can reproduce it it is genetic 

also hypo are genetic if they are not how do we have super hypos 

the one i got out 3 years ago is a caramel albino the 1 i got out 2 year ago is a hypo albino


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## RedFox (Dec 18, 2013)

There are a few nice hypo Darwins around now. It would be interesting to compare the results of a hypo Darwin x albino Darwin, a hypo coastal x albino darwin, and a caramel coastal x albino Darwin.


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## Trueblueboy (Dec 18, 2013)

Post some pics [MENTION=1977]CHONDROS[/MENTION] and let's see if there the same as snakestud's and let's see if your claims are true

- - - Updated - - -

Post some pics [MENTION=1977]CHONDROS[/MENTION] and let's see if there the same as snakestud's and let's see if your claims are true

- - - Updated - - -

Post some pics [MENTION=1977]CHONDROS[/MENTION] and let's see if there the same as snakestud's and let's see if your claims are true


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## CHONDROS (Dec 18, 2013)

heres a few

- - - Updated - - -

that is what a hatchling caramel albino looks like


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## andynic07 (Dec 18, 2013)

That third picture is a really nice contrast [MENTION=1977]CHONDROS[/MENTION] .


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## CHONDROS (Dec 18, 2013)

the white one is it mother


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## Trueblueboy (Dec 18, 2013)

That snake is only a high yellow albino nothing really special going on there and those hatchies are normal abino hatchies and plus any yellow albino would look special next to that white albino.


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## CHONDROS (Dec 18, 2013)

if u say so

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it good to see people no more about my snakes then i do


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## Grogshla (Dec 18, 2013)

congrats mate looks unreal


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## CHONDROS (Dec 18, 2013)

here she is with normal albino and she is in shed


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## larks (Dec 19, 2013)

Congrats, that's a nice looking little sunglow you have there. Definitely not the first here though.

CONDROS was the first I ever heard of back when he first hatched it and yes it's a genetic sunglow. There have been more produced since as well.

Hypo in coastals is genetic by the way, it's co-dom. I actually have a full clutch of supers hatching right now.

I do agree with Trueblueboy that it's "only a high yellow albino" because that's what a sunglow is. A sunglow is a hypo albinos, the hypo simply increases the colour and the line of hypo's people are using happen to have a caramel colouration. There not that special in my mind but there's plenty of room for improvement. Moonglows will be awesome though


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## saximus (Dec 19, 2013)

larks said:


> Moonglows will be awesome though



Will you have any this year [MENTION=1425]larks[/MENTION]?


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## yellowbeard (Dec 19, 2013)

This is the sunglow at precision reptiles UK at 15 months of age:
View attachment 302483


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## Trueblueboy (Dec 19, 2013)

The attachment doesn't work [MENTION=30324]yellowbeard[/MENTION]


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## andynic07 (Dec 19, 2013)

I think this was the picture [MENTION=30324]yellowbeard[/MENTION] was trying to post. This is straight from their face book page and I have nothing to do with them or this snake.


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## Trueblueboy (Dec 19, 2013)

@larks the sunglow was only produced last year by precision reptiles and the sunglow what they have isn't even an adult and it looks better than @CHONDROS and adult caramels weren't around 3 years ago because Simon stone was the first in the country to have the caramels and so now your argument is invalid because no one besides simon stone had the caramels back then


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## larks (Dec 19, 2013)

Trueblueboy said:


> @larks the sunglow was only produced last year by precision reptiles and the sunglow what they have isn't even an adult and it looks better than @CHONDROS and adult caramels weren't around 3 years ago because Simon stone was the first in the country to have the caramels and so now your argument is invalid because no one besides simon stone had the caramels back then



You sure about that Trueblueboy? Your to funny. First off the sunglow pictured above just looks like a high yellow albino same as CHONDROS did at the same age. Simon has had caramels for allot longer than 3 years and I've been breeding them for longer than that as have many others. Here's a pic of an adult super hypo/caramel that I produced from Simons caramel line a few years ago.


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## yellowbeard (Dec 19, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I think this was the picture @yellowbeard was trying to post. This is straight from their face book page and I have nothing to do with them or this snake.



Thanks Andynic07, I will figure out how to put up pictures one day lol.

As far as I know the term "Sunglow" is used to describe a snake showing the recessive albino genes and the incompleted (co-dom) Hypo gene as used with Boas. This way when you buy one you know exactly how the genetics will work.

If you can create a "Sunglow" through polygenic line breeding there should be a clear distinction that it is not a "Sunglow" but a "Polygenic Sunglow"

- - - Updated - - -



larks said:


> Here's a pic of an adult super hypo/caramel that I produced from Simons caramel line a few years ago.



Southern cross reptiles / reptile mania have them for sale for $1100-1400 now.

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Snakestud said:


> Here we have the first caramel albino hatched this year in Australia.
> this is also the key to producing a moonglow.



Congrats, keep us dated as the colours come through.
Did you use a plain caramel (hypo) or a orange pepper (caramel jag)? from the photo it looks like a plain caramel.
If you are selling any what do you think the price would be?


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## Colin (Dec 19, 2013)

Snakestud said:


> I bought these het caramels off simon stone a couple of years ago. He was the first one to prove out the caramel gene in this country. That's how I know this is the real thing



Congrats on your snake. I'm almost 100% certain the sxr caramels came from mark sim and all they are were a cross jungle x hypo coastal. Its the hypo that makes them co-dominant and I can even remember emails describing a new "hypo jungle" which never really appeared and they were re-named "caramel coastals" myself and several well known breeders who also know this story and even have pics of the first "caramels" bred by mark and someone even still has I think the hypo coastal used in this cross. The same hypo coastal was crossed with a jag and the result was called "orange peppers" this is a well known fact that was recently documented on here in the oranve pepper thread too.. and nothing wrong with this or the caramels. They are nice looking and dont carry the very disappointing neuro condition all jags have despite the nonesense most people quote that most dont show any or very minor neuro.. but we wont get off topic and go there..
.. 
Have a good look at the head pattern on these caramels and you can see the jungle in them.. theres other "caramels" both here and o/s that maybe a pure coastal morph but the ones your mentioning are a cross using an established morph (hypo) not trying to cause an argument and just thought you might be interested. But if you still believe this line is some magic mutation that just appeared in a clutch one day thats fine and Im not trying to start an argument or discredit anyone. But really think morphs and crosses should be labeled what they are and the misinformation that seems to have taken hold corrected when possible. Nice looking snakes though and congratulations for your breeding efforts. Cheers


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 19, 2013)

I agree with Colin & Wayne . 

Mark S proved the hypo male he got off true blue was a super hypo and Co Dom . 
That was before Simon started breeding his caramels with the Mark S stock.. . 

I believe True blue has a different line of hypos now. 



There is a huge variation in the caramels and super caramel forms. 
Also in hypos and super hypos. 

Chondros .. , post those comparison pics again if you can ? to show the clear differences. 

Also, because there is a lot of variation in the caramel and hypo forms there will be variation in the Sunglows.. I will bet a super Sunglow will be different/nicer again... 

Cheers Roger.


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## champagne (Dec 19, 2013)

Snakestud said:


> I hatched it saximus.
> i have more CHONDROS it's not the only one.
> your animals that you hatched three years ago are polygenic. Not caramel albinos. You told me that you crossed a hypo coastal into albinism. It's not genetic.
> 
> ...




Sunglow jag scott (aussie albino) last year


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## Justdragons (Dec 19, 2013)

Interesting project. Nice python.


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## TrueBlue (Dec 19, 2013)

Jungle freak,
Yes you are correct, the pair of hypos Mark got off me years ago was from only one hypo and a hypo-ish animal. I have since put two other unrelated hypos into the mix, so the hypos that I now breed stem from three unrelated hypos and the hypo-ish animal. The two hypos that were added to the original breeding have made a world of difference to the results, but all 4 animals blood is in my line.


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 19, 2013)

Thanks Rob , I still remember your first hypos they were spectacular ..
Roger.


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## TrueBlue (Dec 19, 2013)

The odd one from the first line were quite nice yes, but alot of the young were very average as well, some were just normal looking coastals. When ever I would bred animals from that first line or bred back to it mixed results would occour, but animals that have blood from the other lines as well or just from the other two hypos then all animals in the clutch turn out high quality hypos, so i dont bother breeding back to that line any more.


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 19, 2013)

Ok Rob , thanks for the additional info..

These are the hypos I was reffering too.. .. Your original pair.. They look bloody nice..

Roger.


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## TrueBlue (Dec 19, 2013)

They are actually the two newer aditions to the line not the originals.


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 19, 2013)

Ok Rob , good to know..


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## TrueBlue (Dec 19, 2013)

The original female was a cracker thou, infact Dave (pilbara pythons), still talks about her. She died from leukemia unfortunatly. I had her back in the days before I ever had a computer.


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## Colin (Dec 19, 2013)

Your hypo's have always been spectacular top shelf quality animals Rob

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk


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## swampie (Dec 19, 2013)

I remember that old girl Rob, she died when I was up at your place (Forest beach) years ago, she was a looker....


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## Snakestud (Dec 20, 2013)

Thank you everybody for posting on this thread and thank you for keeping the conversation liberal. 
I think in Australia we have a better selection of quality animals than the rest of the world. Even though some morphs have come from there.

it is great to have now not only one type of albino in the carpet variety with more to be created yet.

These animals will be for sale in a month or so and hope that people can have positive feedback regarding this morph. 

If anyone one else out there as people have said in this thread has them. Please post some pics. Let's see what they are looking like. 

And for everybody here is something that I pulled off in a different clutch.

Thanks again.


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## aussie-albino (Dec 20, 2013)

My caramel Albinos and caramel Albino RPM/jag are about 12 months old now they are from Southern Cross caramels and got more this season.

cheers
Scott


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## discountreptile (Dec 20, 2013)

So all the people who claim to have these animals put your pics up of them. No pics no animals. Don't claim you have something if you can't back it up with a pic. 

Congrats to CHONDROS for posting pics. 

I personally will be purchasing one if those if I can. 
Something different to work with.
Great looking hatchie


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## aussie-albino (Dec 20, 2013)

Fotunately for me discount reptiles that's not true. Plenty of images of my animals online. 

cheers
Scott


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## Trueblueboy (Dec 20, 2013)

Well if he has them then he should put up some pics, like discount reptiles said "no pics, no animals"


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## Senator358 (Dec 20, 2013)

Trueblueboy said:


> Well if he has them then he should put up some pics, like discount reptiles said "no pics, no animals"



Just because Scott chooses not to post them here, doesn't mean he doesn't have photos or the animals. I don't bother posting my animals here, doesn't mean I don't have any.

Google or facebook and you'll find heaps of Scott's pics.


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## discountreptile (Dec 20, 2013)

I thought contributing to a thread is online. 
This isn't Facebook. How about some pics. 
Contribute to the thread all the sunglow owners. I would love to see the variations.

- - - Updated - - -

I checked out his Facebook page and saw no sunglows. Some nice animals and a message from some chick who can't read properly. Lol.


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## Senator358 (Dec 20, 2013)

I'm not going to post the pics for Scott in case he doesn't want them here but I can see about six on his fb page.


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## MesseNoire (Dec 20, 2013)

Trueblueboy said:


> Well I can't see any Sunglows on his page so it's either you's don't know what a sunglow looks like or you's are colour blind



Didn't look very hard then did you?
Besides, are you the authority on colour and possessions?
People don't usually post pictures of exotic reptiles they keep, does that mean very few in Australia keep them?


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## thomasssss (Dec 21, 2013)

discountreptile said:


> So all the people who claim to have these animals put your pics up of them. No pics no animals. Don't claim you have something if you can't back it up with a pic.





Trueblueboy said:


> Well if he has them then he should put up some pics, like discount reptiles said "no pics, no animals"


you guys want to know why the people who own these animals dont want to post on here ? , its because of people like you 2 , classic example right in this thread where CHONDROS has been doubted , then had pictures posted and reputable people back him up only for trueblueboy to tell him it isnt what it is because they know better 

i hope that one day this will stop and people can post pics without basically being called a liar but you know , when pigs fly and all


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## Teleman64 (Dec 21, 2013)

*This is a sunglow jag from last season and I have some from this season*


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## discountreptile (Dec 21, 2013)

Fractal-man, they are not exotic. They are Australian snakes. Just a new morph appearing now and to be honest I think it could make the albino prices stabilise for a while. Cause let's face it they have been in free fall over the last few years or so. With bringing new morphs into this domain brings excitement.

thomassss. I thanked CHONDROS for posting his animals cause that's what you do in threads, post stuff. 

Thankyou teleman64. That is one sick animal. I love the jag pattern with that colouration. 
I and people who will read this thread would probably want to make an informed decision on weather they would want to part with their hard earned money to purchase one of these animals. If we don't know what's out there how do we know what's real. 
I think the jag is the best so far


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## champagne (Dec 21, 2013)

discountreptile said:


> Fractal-man, they are not exotic. They are Australian snakes. Just a new morph appearing now and to be honest I think it could make the albino prices stabilise for a while. Cause let's face it they have been in free fall over the last few years or so. With bringing new morphs into this domain brings excitement.
> 
> thomassss. I thanked CHONDROS for posting his animals cause that's what you do in threads, post stuff.
> 
> ...




You might want re read Fractal-man post.... He didn't say they were exotics just try to make a point that just because people don't post photo of project morphs on here doesn't mean they don't have them. As for albino prices falling they have been the same price for the last 3 seasons with only a few people selling cheaper males.


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## aussie-albino (Dec 21, 2013)




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## CHONDROS (Dec 21, 2013)

hey Roger heres the pics of the hypo and super hypo


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks mate, 
Excellent comparison pics showing the different amount of melanin displayed in the hypo and super hypo...


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## Perko (Dec 21, 2013)

Great looking super Hypo CHONDROS, did you get a clutch from her this year?


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Dec 21, 2013)

So...is Simon Stones lines of caramels, pure coastals or what?


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## TrueBlue (Dec 21, 2013)

Jungle x hypo coastal I beleive. So no not pure coastal.

On a different note, arnt jags exotics? I think that was what the earlier comment was about.


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## discountreptile (Dec 22, 2013)

Getting a bit off topic now but I would say that any animal that is not on the parks list of animals you can keep would be called an exotic. 

So would any of you guys who have these animals have an idea of what one would be expected to pay for the sunglows


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Dec 22, 2013)

The two caramels I have from SXR don't have any resemblance to any Jungles I have and have seen. Their shape, colour and patterning look entirely like Coastals, my female having been presented as one in a state show, winning a ribbon and no experts questioning that. I was referring to normal caramels in my previous statement and not OPs/Caramel Jags btw, and until Simon comes on here and says otherwise, they will stay registered as Coastals.


TrueBlue said:


> Jungle x hypo coastal I beleive. So no not pure coastal.




So does anyone know if T+ or T- animals were used for this sunlgow project? My knowledge of the difference is not very high or adept but as far as I know the - ones are usually lavenders and pastels and the + ones are usually darker with more brighter oranges and yellows.


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## RedFox (Dec 22, 2013)

Albino Darwins are all T- but have a fair bit of colour variation. If the orginal pairing that produced SXR codom caramel was between a jungle and a coastal and then bred back to coastals for a few gens they would have very little resemblance if any of a jungle.


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## champagne (Dec 22, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> The two caramels I have from SXR don't have any resemblance to any Jungles I have and have seen. Their shape, colour and patterning look entirely like Coastals, my female having been presented as one in a state show, winning a ribbon and no experts questioning that. I was referring to normal caramels in my previous statement and not OPs/Caramel Jags btw, and until Simon comes on here and says otherwise, they will stay registered as Coastals.
> 
> 
> So does anyone know if T+ or T- animals were used for this sunlgow project? My knowledge of the difference is not very high or adept but as far as I know the - ones are usually lavenders and pastels and the + ones are usually darker with more brighter oranges and yellows.



The co dom caramels from sxr are jungle crosses that have been crossed back to coastals. We would all love to see the sxr caramels you have... Can you post photos?

i can be fairly confident in say a t- albino was used because a sunglow is a hypo t- albino, also the fact that no one has produced t+ carpet pythons.... Or didn't google tell you that part?


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## RedFox (Dec 22, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> So...is Simon Stones lines of caramels, pure coastals or what?



Simon has always being a bit vague as to the origins of the caramel line. He hasn't come on here or any other forum, to my knowledge in the past to either confirm or dismiss, so I find it incredibly unlikely he would post about it now.

You could always try contacting him yourself. 

I have no interest in caramel coastals so have not looked into it myself. Just what I have heard.


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## champagne (Dec 22, 2013)

It has been posted on here serval times the origin of the sxr co dom carpets from the actual people that original worked with the line it was a hypo coastal that rob no longer wanted to work with because he was working toward a patternless hypo and a hypoish jungle. This is where the sxr caramel line comes from also serval people that have worked closely with simon on different project have also confirmed this.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Dec 22, 2013)

RedFox said:


> Simon has always being a bit vague as to the origins of the caramel line. He hasn't come on here or any other forum, to my knowledge in the past to either confirm or dismiss, so I find it incredibly unlikely he would post about it now.
> 
> You could always try contacting him yourself.
> 
> I have no interest in caramel coastals so have not looked into it myself. Just what I have heard.


I have Diane's number but I'm not going to ring them up about it now, its no big deal. Atm I'm more interested in the T- and T+ thing and whether any of the experienced albino breeders in here want to comment


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## saximus (Dec 22, 2013)

As Champagne said there are no known T+ Carpet pythons. You don't need to be an experienced albino breeder to know that. Do you understand the difference between them?


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## mungus (Dec 22, 2013)

I got a real sunglow fishing in the day…………….now just waiting for the the next full moon !


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## champagne (Dec 23, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> I have Diane's number but I'm not going to ring them up about it now, its no big deal. Atm I'm more interested in the T- and T+ thing and whether any of the experienced albino breeders in here want to comment



mates its pretty obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about but just googled sunglow and had boas pop up.... That's why you keep going on about T+ albinos yes they occur in boas but no one has produced them in carpet pythons, that doesn't mean its not possible. You seem to have a lot of snakes but why cant you put any photos up??? just stop trolling and maybe just read you might learn something.... have a look at T+ albino children's python and then T- albino mac, then you might see/understand the difference.


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## Colin (Dec 26, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> The two caramels I have from SXR don't have any resemblance to any Jungles I have and have seen. Their shape, colour and patterning look entirely like Coastals



Hi Serpentaria, your caramels may not look like theres any jungle in the mix but there's plenty of examples out there that really do look like they have some jungle in them. I would suggest too that when fully grown your SXR caramels will probably be more jungle size than coastal (maximum 7 foot long instead of over 8 feet long like many pure coastals) but as always there are are exceptions. I've owned & bred a few SXR line caramels and none were bigger than 7 foot as many coastals are, and many had the jungle like head pattern. while not proof of anything by itself, added to the information I posted about the mark sim line it supports my previous post about this line, and this claim is supported by several well known people in the hobby, several who posted after me and we're friends with mark sim at the time and witness to the situation. Im not looking to argue, and only offer some information which I feel is accurate & the truth. 

here's a picture of a SXR caramel that I owned that has a head pattern distinctly more jungle like than most coastals, and I had quite a few caramels that had similar jungle skull and cross bone head patterns. The caramels I started with were from the first release SXR animals. Again I'm not trying to argue or discredit or accuse anyone at all. I don't really care if they have jungle in them. 

I do however feel that if accurate information is there on lines of snakes or specific animals that the naming and what has been used to achieve these animals should be properly labeled, documented and at least known publicly to 
avoid confusion in the future when much of this information may be lost or unknown. cheers


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks Colin


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## CHONDROS (Dec 30, 2013)

So would any of you guys who have these animals have an idea of what one would be expected to pay for the sunglows[/QUOTE]

about 1k-1500


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## slide (Dec 31, 2013)

[MENTION=1977]CHONDROS[/MENTION] I dont have sunglows but I would hazard a guess that the wallet would need to open a bit wider at this point in time with being miltiple gene animals. I would assume that most, if not all would be kept for future breeders at this stage so making the prices high with supply at a minimum. 

Just my thoughts,
Aaron


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## CHONDROS (Dec 31, 2013)

They are just a bright albino so why would the be worth more then that 

I have also heard them being offered for 7k which in just ridiculous if any one pays that they have rocks in there head


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Dec 31, 2013)

[MENTION=1977]CHONDROS[/MENTION] they are a double morph with both albino AND caramel genes, not just a bright albino. And considering they are not very common and still considered exclusive, anywhere from 2-5K is probably the price range they'll go for


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## CHONDROS (Dec 31, 2013)

I have them and will be selling them for $1200


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Dec 31, 2013)

then feel free to go and post an ad in the for sale section at that price, no one is stopping you from selling them at whatever price you want, but I would seriously consider the fact that you're underselling yourself and those others who are also producing them. My point is not about you making money from them its about market value and trends. Selling a somewhat rarer animal at less than market value puts the value and quality of the animal down and won't do much for a breeders reputation either, others will think because you're animals are cheap they could very well be substandard, sure cheap people will buy them and think its a bargain, but if you are breeding as a financial business then stay away from cheap prices. I love a good bargain as much as the next person, but cheap animals are a warning sign for me, even if the seller is well known or reputable.


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## CHONDROS (Dec 31, 2013)

thats all the are worth to me and a lot of others


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## Newhere (Dec 31, 2013)

I wonder what the market value is for the T+ ones lol :lol:


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## TrueBlue (Dec 31, 2013)

I dont get it?, how can selling animals at a realistic price ruin a breeders reputation.?
I think that it only gives them a better reputation.


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## Red-Ink (Dec 31, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> I dont get it?, how can selling animals at a realistic price ruin a breeders reputation.?
> I think that it only gives them a better reputation.



Because it ruins their reputation with new world domination breeders who want to keep the price up so they can be worshipped by newbies for a long time while making the most money...

If you don't keep your price up how are newbies going to know your the best breeder in the whole 18 months you've owned reptiles?


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## aussie-albino (Dec 31, 2013)

I think every year these sorts of outrageous claims are made by people. When we actually see some being advertised and sold for $1200 then it becomes believable. Lets see the adds for $1200 or it's just smoke 

cheers
Scott


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## TrueBlue (Dec 31, 2013)

By outrageous claims, does that mean if you have any you will be trying to sell them for an outrageous price.? lol.


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## aussie-albino (Dec 31, 2013)

See how many go on the market at that price Rob. How much will caramel zebras be? how much will het albino zebras be? And yet a caramel albino a much better and more viable investment, becauise of the simple reason there is less out there, and a double gene morph without health issues. Why would something more common and less attractive be worth more?? 

cheers
Scott


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## TrueBlue (Dec 31, 2013)

Zebras arent worth diddly squat to me and many other people, so thats beside the point.

lol, A caramel albino once again not worth bugger all to me and many others, just another peice of cross bred rubbish.


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## aussie-albino (Dec 31, 2013)

That's true enough Rob talking about the market and what it says tho mate


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## TrueBlue (Dec 31, 2013)

Exactly, listen to the market then. The only people that will pay big money for mongrels no matter what they are, are a handfull of people that dont know any better. Simple.

You guys seem to think that because a snake carries more than one genetic morph its worth thousands more, thats absurd. It is not any harder to breed two snakes with different genetics together than it is to breed snakes with only one, or just any normal form of snake for that matter.
Gee maybe I should sell my hypos for 10 grand each, as imo and many others they are worth far more than any cross breed mongrel ever will. Why? beacuse they are pure, the real deal.


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## yellowbeard (Jan 1, 2014)

TrueBlue said:


> Gee maybe I should sell my hypos for 10 grand each, as imo and many others they are worth far more than any cross breed mongrel ever will. Why? beacuse they are pure, the real deal.



If there is a proven mode of genetic inheritance (recessive, incomplete dominate etc.) you might well get 10 grand each for them.

Having a proven mode of genetic inheritance (not line breed) will increase the price and I would hazard a guess that a recessive would be the most expensive due to the time it takes to create the homozygous form.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

Lol Rob that's just funny  You know what happens now lol. Everyone will be looking for Sunglows for $1200, they won't be able to buy one because people who do have them won't sell them for that. We grow them up breed 200 then sell them for that price in 3-4 years time. He just trying to crasah the market on albino morphs because he bred 100 zebras this year he wants to flog off at 4k or more each. Just pointing out the obvious for the poor folks who think they will be able to buy a Sunglow for $1200 it won't happen. And again how is a zebra which is common as and been around for nearly 15 years more valuable than a new morph a couple of years old and there is still only a handful around? Aus is full of Zebra's not so many Sunglows tho  my 2 cents

cheers
Scott


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## slide (Jan 1, 2014)

Serpentaria said:


> ...Selling a somewhat rarer animal at less than market value puts the value and quality of the animal down...



I find it hard to believe the last part of this statement about the quality of animals being effected when sold at cheaper prices. 
A dollar value does not affect quality, but quality will affect the dollar value. 
So does supply and demand. 

Whatever price tag a breeder puts on their animals is up to them, but the animal is only worth whatever both parties agree to.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 1, 2014)

yellowbeard,-
My line of hypos are proven to be Co Dom, ive known that for years. Thats why i wouldnt sell any to Stone many years ago as I knew exactly what he was up to and what he wanted them for.
Yet I dont sell them for ridiculously inflated prices.

aussie-albino,-
Lol, I find your comment extremely funny. Mongrels are mongrels no matter what they are, look like or how many are around. They are very easy to produce and worthless rubbish no matter how you look at it. There is no dediction or hard yards put in to producing them, any primary school kid could breed them with ease.
You guys just want to make them sound like something that they are not so that you can sell them to make huge profits off a few poor souls that dont know any better.

I comend CONDROS for wanting to sell them for a much closer price to what they are worth, good on you mate. (even thou i still think its way to much lol.)
A pure albino darwin is worth way more imo.


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## yellowbeard (Jan 1, 2014)

CHONDROS said:


> I have them and will be selling them for $1200



Just to be 100% clear, you will be selling Sunglows (proven co-dom hypo/caramel + homozygous albino) for $1200 this season?

I ask this as a mate of mine would be very interested at that price.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

Oh yes it is much harder to breed these two coastals together and takes far more dedication than it does to breed this coastal to a darwin to join the color morphs. lmao 


cheers
Scott


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## TrueBlue (Jan 1, 2014)

To produce the quality of hypos that I produce, yes FAR more dedication, there are more than just 2 coastals involved for a start. A comment like that really does shows how little you know and thats a fact. LOL.
If not why arnt many other people producing the same quality hypos.??????????
You seem a little bit upset just because I have stated the obvious, does the truth hurt.????


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## andynic07 (Jan 1, 2014)

TrueBlue said:


> To produce the quality of hypos that I produce, yes FAR more dedication. A coment like that really does shows how little you know and thats a fact. LOL.
> If not why arnt many other people producing the same quality hypos.??????????



I agree that line breeding takes a lot longer and a lot of dedication to get a nice animal than breeding this jag to that but there are also some "mongrel" breeders that put in just as many years of breeding to refine their animals too.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

Lol Rob yes all breeders know that polygenics is the basis behind successful breeding even when using simple recessive and dominant/incomplete dominant genetics you have to be mindful of your polygenic traits and line breed still to lock theses traits in otherwise you end up with pythons not quite as attractive as they could be and harder to sell. The lack of advertising I do shows how much difficulty I have selling animals lol  some people swallow anything 

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Really is it that hard to believe that some of us are just tired of the same tired worn out cliche's being thrown out lol, come on. Some of us really are just interested in breeding visually spectacular animals because that is what we like doing in the hobby lol, tired old dogma is not going to stop me enjoying making visually spectacular animals. No one denies the quality of your animals Rob  think about it and be happy  lol


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## TrueBlue (Jan 1, 2014)

Hahaha, So you just agreed that to consistantly produce the quality of hypos that I consantly produce takes much more dedication and effort than breeding a mongrel to an albino. Thanks maybe it has finally sunken in. Wouldnt mind knowing thou how you seem to think that breeding a coastal to a darwin is any harder than breeding a coastal to a coastal. You seem to think that it is a major effort and acomplishment. Were in fact there is no difference.
Look I dont care what you breed, means diddly squat to me. I just think that its pretty rude selling crossbreed mongrels that are very easy to produce for massive amounts of money.
As for spectacular animals, well when i recently made a comment on fb that i was thinking of selling a yearling pair of hypos you were trying hard to aquire them and admitting that they were far superior looking to any jag that you have ever seen.
How often do you ever see me advertising animals, not often at all, yet I breed a lagre number of snakes every year.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

You start with an albino and co dom hypo now Rob see how long it takes to produce one. Get back to me in 5 years when you make one Rob, or I will sell mine for $1200 each in 5 years time. I don't think you really understood what I posted Rob may be best for the hobby tho in the long run. 

cheers
Scott


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## TrueBlue (Jan 1, 2014)

My hypos are co dom, I could of been producing sunglows years ago if i wanted to,( and even stated this fact to a number of close friends ), but I wouldnt dream of crossing a coastal with a darwin. I like pure blood animals not mongrel rubbish.
As said in an earlier post this is one of the reasons i wouldnt sell any to stone years ago as this is one of the reasons that he wanted them for.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

No to be fair I will explain for you mate. I was saying I use the same selective line breeding techniques you do in conjunction with the use of simple genetics. 2 types at once lol, sorry mate. 

Cheers
Scott 

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I know mate but it has been all said before and serves no purpose I guess to keep saying it. Lets just enjoy the hobby?

cheers
Scott


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## TrueBlue (Jan 1, 2014)

Fine by me. I understood exactly what you meant, I still just cant get my head around selling an easy to produce animal for huge profits. Once you have the right animals, which are relatively easy to obtain these days, anyone can produce a sunglow.
As said before to me and many others a 100% pure albino darwin is worth far more than any cross bred snake.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

The 5 years I mentioned Rob do they want one now or in five years when most of my adult females are Sunglows and Snows and I am breeding my next levels of morphs with newer and different names and still get a few random albinos and Sunglows in the mix then they are worth $1200. Now why wouldn't I keep them and breed them. Not hard to figure out surely. None of this will change their price Rob


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## TrueBlue (Jan 1, 2014)

Once again, to me and many others they aren't worth bugger all, a cross bred snake never will be to us. I just pitty the poor buggers that want to pay massive amounts of money for sub-standard animals 
Times are changing and pure blood animals are worth the money in our opinion. Keep on breeding all those mongrels as it only increases the value of our pure blood stock.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

All good then Rob and of course time will tell. Plenty of people still in the market for the visually spectacular now tho and I am sure I won't have problems in the future  Nothing at all sub standard about my animals mate. Genetic diversity very strong and healthy lol. In breed for health  lol

cheers
Scott


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## Kurtis (Jan 1, 2014)

TrueBlue said:


> Once again, to me and many others they aren't worth bugger all, a cross bred snake never will be to us. I just pitty the poor buggers that want to pay massive amounts of money for sub-standard animals
> Times are changing and pure blood animals are worth the money in our opinion. Keep on breeding all those mongrels as it only increases the value of our pure blood stock.



Speak the truth right there.


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## Newhere (Jan 1, 2014)

aussie-albino maybe they are only worth $1200 to that other bloke because he is five years ahead of you


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## aussie-albino (Jan 1, 2014)

Interesting newhere  in what??  lol


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## Newhere (Jan 2, 2014)

aussie-albino said:


> in five years when most of my adult females are Sunglows and Snows and I am breeding my next levels of morphs with newer and different names and still get a few random albinos and Sunglows in the mix then they are worth $1200.



Maybe others are selling them for 1200 because they are currently in a position that you will be in five years from now, could this be the case?


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## aussie-albino (Jan 2, 2014)

Ah looks like the trolls are here lol. Enjoy your fantasy troll lol 

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Sorry about that slip up I will check status bars brfore answering in future 

cheers
Scott


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## Newhere (Jan 2, 2014)

Enjoy your fantasy that you run the market lol


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## aussie-albino (Jan 2, 2014)

Ok just so I can say I told you so  go through the thread again paying specific attention to modes of inheritance. If that is not obvious enough for you lol good luck buying your bargain basement Sunglows. Try and point out some obvious truth's to anyone with open eyes and lol next thing I am jealous and think I run the market. You are obviously highly intelligent with that clue you should be able to work it out without me steering the market all by yourself. When you buy one let me know then I will point out the obvious difference to you lol. I'll go now let the brain trust work it all out now lol. 

cheers
Scott


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## Newhere (Jan 2, 2014)

I won't be buying any bargain basement sunglows or any ridiculously overpriced ones for that matter lol they're worthless to me


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