# Wild Caught debate



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 24, 2008)

I was fascinated to read in the latest Australian reptile magazine the comments made by Simon Stone ( Doc Rock ) about wild caught snakes from W.A. He claims and I quote,

Snakes with sort of back ground, or that are only first generation captive bred animals can be much more touchy and difficult to care for and breed than multigenerational captive bred animals. It worth bearing in mind that the shorter the captive history of a breeding line typically the more difficult it is to breed and the more sensitive to human intervention.

The puzzling part about this statement is how he arrives at these conclusions without having bred or kept many ( or perhaps any?) first generation or multigenerational wild derived W.A woma’s, Black headed Pythons, South Western carpets, or Stimsons in the first place to gain accurate data to draw some of these ridicules conclusions.
In regards to one particular species e.g. wild caught W.A womas, my experience has shown me the complete opposite. Without trying to blow my own trumpet too much here, I have no doubt that we here at Pilbara Pythons have caught, housed and handled more wild caught W.A Pilbara womas than any white man on this planet. Furthermore my breeding partner Rob McCloud in QLD has in a Twelve month period produced large numbers of clutches from wild caught females that we deemed were of appropriate condition and age with absolute ease. In fact only two females failed to produce in their first year of captivity. To claim that first generation captive bred have a less desirable temperament that multi generation off spring is in my view (and of many other experienced breeders) is wrong and unproven.
A snake has only basic instincts and mother snakes generally do not nurture their young or teach them in any way. How does a snake know the difference itself between whether it was captive bred or wild bred?
A primary survival instinct in any animal is to reproduce, snakes don’t get heightened senses of this because they are captive bred, it is primal.

It therefore raises the question of motivation of publishing such unsubstantiated conclusions. Could the motivation be in the fact that so many beautiful good temperament wild caught woma specimens are now established in captivity which directly threatens potential sales of ones own breeding pool programs of the same species? 
Where there is no argument from me however ( and I actually agree ), is that generally speaking wild caught can be more difficult to breed straight from the wild than captive raised. This is more evident with a few species but definitely not for all.
My self and many others across this great country have shown that all wild caught species of pythons can indeed be bred successfully in captivity if maintained correctly and specimens have appropriately adapted to their captive environment. That in its self can be for the very inexperienced perhaps harder to achieve.
The following is a very quick summary of how I view the debate. Please feel free to ad to the lists. Now you may ask your self the same question? What is my motivation for this response? Simply put, an article like that directly affects all W.A reptile dealers financially who deal in wild caught fauna.


Wild Caught Collected Pythons
Many people believe that wild caught snakes are harder to breed than captive born.
While this can be true with individual specimens my experience has shown me that all wild caught species of pythons can indeed be bred successfully in captivity if maintained correctly and specimens have appropriately adapted to their captive environment.

What are the negatives?
(1) Possibly ending up with a specimen of unknown age 
(2) Having a specimen not used to captivity
(3)Ending up with a reptiles that does not do well in captivity 

Why do some people prefer captive bred specimens?
(1) Often a chance to see both parent reptiles
(2) Starting fresh with a disease free specimen
(3) Having a good chance of eventually breeding from specimen 
(4) Because of personal morals against the collecting of wild reptiles
for potential commercial gain or otherwise.

How can I increase my chances of breeding a wild caught python?
(1) Try to get younger specimen to gain the maximum breeding time 
(2) Try to only buy from of a reputable dealer
(3) Make sure that the reptile your purchase has had some captive history
and this information its history is supplied from the supplier
(4) Only purchase reptiles that have been treated for internal parasites
(5) Only purchase reptiles that are guaranteed feeding well.

What are some of the positives?
(1) Knowing you have a locale specific specimen and where it came from
(2) Having the mystery of not knowing for sure what genes its may carry e.g.
exciting traits you may end up with.
(3) Knowing that you have a pure species and not tainted by unscrupulous breeders.
(4) A chance to get un related blood lines in to captive breeding programs.


Cheers 

Dave Mackintosh


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## bredli84 (Feb 24, 2008)

just for arguments sake i will mention that simon stone has bred at least some wild caught specimens (gammon ranges carpets, albino darwin), while they are not WA animals the principles should be the same.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 24, 2008)

And was successful in breeding both, surprise surprise.


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## salebrosus (Feb 24, 2008)

Well said Dave, I certainly have a preference for wild animals for the reasons you have mentioned. 

Simone.


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## mrmikk (Feb 24, 2008)

Let me throw another angle on this debate. 

While not knowing the intracacies of WA legislation regarding the 'rules' around catching, keeping and breeding wild caught reptiles. I would not like to see any tom, dick or harry have permission to take wild reptiles into captivity for obvious reasons. 

Wild caught under very strict controls, perhaps, but I think captive bred reptiles, on the whole will maintain supply to our market and thereby leave wild reptiles to enjoy their native habitat.

While not taking side in this debate, I am sure you do indeed have extensive experience in your field Pilbara. However, most will agree that Simon Stone is one of this country's foremost experts on Australian snakes, and I am positive you would concede that his opinion does carry weight.

I also feel that you should have given Simon the opportunity to respond to your concerns in a private manner, rather than posting in a public forum.

Pilbara, perhaps you can shed some light on what your legislative obligations are around being able to take wild caught reptiles.


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## Retic (Feb 24, 2008)

I think most people prefer captive bred and ideally multi generation captive bred, they almost invariably are better adjusted in captivity and less likely to suffer from parasite issues. Having said that I would own good quality WC animals.
I think Simon is probably totally justified in making those comments, regardless of whether he personally has bred WC WA animals he no doubt knows numerous keepers that own these animals and would be well aware of any potential issues associated with them. 
Not surprisingly he no longer posts on here which is a shame as it would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the subject.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 24, 2008)

mrMikk
Quote
I also feel that you should have given Simon the opportunity to respond to your concerns in a private manner, rather than posting in a public forum.

Posting in a private capacity would not achieve my objective which was simply putting things in prospective and stating that some of what was written by Doc Rock is biased. It wasn’t a question of needing to ask him anything. 

Quote
While not taking side in this debate, I am sure you do indeed have extensive experience in your field Pilbara. However, most will agree that Simon Stone is one of this country's foremost experts on Australian snakes, and I am positive you would concede that his opinion does carry weight.

There is no argument from me that Simon has extensive experience in breeding and maintaining some species of pythons. If you concede that his opinion carries weight, then this makes it even more important to the inexperienced punters out there that what he says is based on fact and not just on generalized personal opinion derived from very little experience.

Quote
Pilbara, perhaps you can shed some light on what your legislative obligations are around being able to take wild caught reptiles.

The legislative obligations are long and many, but briefly,
All collecting activity here is done with strict licence conditions than entail the collection of GPS points of capture, weights and measurements and condition of each collected reptiles etc. 
We have to provide 48 written prior collection notice of vehicle, property location.
We have to quarantine captives for three weeks and treat accordingly for internal and external parasites, supply written notice of reptile transfer, complete records and of course pay large fees of which every body hates.

_________________


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## Ramsayi (Feb 24, 2008)

The only thing about WC that interests me is how long it will continue to happen.When are enough specimens going to be collected to be able to supply the market with captive bred animals?


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## bredli84 (Feb 24, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> The only thing about WC that interests me is how long it will continue to happen.When are enough specimens going to be collected to be able to supply the market with captive bred animals?



probably a long time since they are so hard to keep and breed


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## mrmikk (Feb 24, 2008)

Thanks for your response Pilbara and the rules governing wild caught reptiles in WA


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## salebrosus (Feb 24, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> The only thing about WC that interests me is how long it will continue to happen.When are enough specimens going to be collected to be able to supply the market with captive bred animals?



Sadly there are some species that are not in captivity but i wish they were. Those Pilbara egernias are simply stunning.

Simone.


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## weskys (Feb 24, 2008)

just wondering how many wild caught reptiles there are in regards to reptiles released into wild dont wish to get into strong debate more asking so i know more on the subject for my own benifit just wondering if numbers are equal and if not i support captivly bred reptiles for commercial sale

as said dont wish aggresive debate but am just curious on the balance
cheers dave


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## whatsup (Feb 24, 2008)

this hobby originated by people collecting wild caught animals to breed with from all over Australia. people are still getting collection permits to collect certain species to start breeding programs.


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## lazybuddha (Feb 24, 2008)

i hope to get some wild caught soon, for points 1, 3 and 4.


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## junglepython2 (Feb 24, 2008)

weskys said:


> just wondering how many wild caught reptiles there are in regards to reptiles released into wild dont wish to get into strong debate more asking so i know more on the subject for my own benifit just wondering if numbers are equal and if not i support captivly bred reptiles for commercial sale
> 
> as said dont wish aggresive debate but am just curious on the balance
> cheers dave


 
I think you will find there are 0 captive snakes released into the wild legally, for various different reasons and if they were it would only be under very special circumstances.


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## salebrosus (Feb 24, 2008)

Wasn't there a program releasing South Australian womas?

Simone.


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## whatsup (Feb 24, 2008)

yeah there was. i read somewhere it did'nt go that well


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 24, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Why do some people prefer captive bred specimens?
> (1) Often a chance to see both parent reptiles
> (2) Starting fresh with a disease free specimen
> (3) Having a good chance of eventually breeding from specimen
> ...



The sad thing is that these days sometimes its 'safer' to buy in a WC animal than a captive bred animal from a disease standpoint! (excluding breeders and keepers that adhere to strict quarantine practices)!

As for the breeding of wild caught animals, I can only comment on what experience i have had personally. I have dealt with a few WC animals that were in the care of NSW keepers around amnesty time. The most troublesome WC species found to breed were Stimsons and BHP's. In my experience these two species are much easier to breed if the animals you purchase are from multi-gen stock. In saying that, Obviously there are a limited number of people breeding WA BHP's (compared to QLD's) so the chances of finding multi-gen Quality animals are fairly low. In this case I think buying WC WA Blackheads (and stimsons) is a great way to "test your skills" and inturn supply others keepers with CB animals down the line.

Regards
Den


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## Miss_Croft (Feb 24, 2008)

Wild Caught V’s Captive Bred

I am going to keep this general (not based on Australian Pythons, but on US experience where you can buy Wild caught reptiles (Cheaper than captive bred) and captive bred ones. This is the same for birds and other wild animals (Tigers included – just look how hard it is to breed Sumatran Tigers compared to white Bangor tiger. 


Captive Breed reptiles tend to be easier to incubate their eggs
 Breeders have found 


A much higher incubation success with captive bred reptiles (Second generation is better than first and it goes on)
A more regular breeding cycle (many breeders say like clock work or can predict when their animals should start laying)

The animals are much easier to handle
 ·Breeders tend to breed the quieter animals – this creates an animal with a better temperament and is easier to handle.

Parasite load
 ·Keepers have round the parasite load of imported reptiles is often high – they say the reptile crashes about 4-6 months into keeping them. It is often called wasting disease (Tortoise are prone to this). What they find is the poor animal is now under stress and is killed by the parasite load

Temperature tolerance
 ·They find captive bred animal often have a wider temperature tolerance (As well as a wider humidity tolerance). 

Transport tolerance
 ·This is an interesting one – but captive bred animals generally survive transport better than wild caught animals – This has other implications for where smuggled animals come from – but that is a whole new topic that I do not want to get into now. (Basically if you want the animals to arrive safely at their destination – go for captive bred animals and you have a greater chance of live delivery) 

What I am trying to say is most breeders will keep the “Best” for breeding and sell off the rest. (The best been the largest, best looking and healthiest animals (Aka easier to keep and breed) Call it evolution, selective breeding or what ever you want… Captive bred animals are generally quieter, easier to keep, breed and live longer in captivity.


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## Just_Joshin (Feb 24, 2008)

Personally i think it is sad and wrong that people are allowed to take Snakes out of the wild and sell them. I fully support permits that allow the collection of initial breeding stock, but in my opinion, it should stay just that, INITIAL.

The ongoing practice of catching specimens to sell is wrong. It is simply legalised poaching which is disgusting. Once breeding pairs of snakes have been obtained onus should be placed upon the collector to breed these animals ONLY and use the ongoing off-spring to produce the captive population of a particular. Selling these wild caughts specimens only to obtain more to sell is ridiculous.

That is all.......


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## cris (Feb 24, 2008)

Apart from CB animals being brought up and adjusted to captivity from hatching I fail to see any advantages of CB over wild caught (provided they are colected in a fashion that is not detrimental to the population).

I personally think its a shame there isnt more regulated collecting allowed across Australia.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 24, 2008)

Miss Croft
I can’t comment too much about the hundreds of different exotic reptiles available in the US taken from the wild which of many I know absolutely nothing about.

I can comment about many Australian species though through good first hand experience gained over several years. I have yet to find the incubation of python eggs any more or less successful than eggs produced from captive bred first generation specimens.
I have also yet to experience any temperament differences in regards to wild caught hatchlings over captive bred specimens and dealt with decent numbers of both.

As far as captive bred living longer goes, I refute that as well as this is completely relevant to the age of the wild caught reptile as well as its health status when you purchase it in the first place.
e.g. if I collect a hatchling straight from the nest I seriously doubt that it has a shorter life span than if I had artificially incubated the egg my self or produced the egg from a captive raised specimen, lets get real here.

Cheers Dave


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## Just_Joshin (Feb 24, 2008)

cris said:


> Apart from CB animals being brought up and adjusted to captivity from hatching I fail to see any advantages of CB over wild caught (provided they are colected in a fashion that is not detrimental to the population).
> 
> I personally think its a shame there isnt more regulated collecting allowed across Australia.


Why take from a population in which in reality, we have no control over the rate of reproduction, is stressed upon by unknown and changing environmental factors and we really don't have a ACCURATE idea of what is left. If a sudden change in climate, fire rips through and area, a disease pops up.........suddenly you may be thinking, "gee all those snakes we allowed to be taken would definately be of a help back in the wild now". I see no need to risk a wild population when there are other means. It is a privelge to even be able to keep them in the first place. Why exploit this privledge by continuing to take what really shouldn't be ours to begin with.

Why do this when it can all be controlled and regulating within a self sustainable captive population???


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## chilli (Feb 24, 2008)

dave, i don't think you read the quote correctly, " can be " *doesn't* read 'definitely are in all circumstances' as it appears you are reading it.


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## hazzard (Feb 24, 2008)

I have no problems with founder specimens being wild caught to establish captive breeding lines, after all we have all benefited from this. However i cannot simply see why animals continue to be caught and sold to any Tom, Dick or Harry in the industry.

Granted your experience is far greater than mine, but you elude to the fact that both yourself and Rob have been successful in breeding large numbers from wild caught animals (in the case of womas). So then why do you continue to plunder the wilderness for additional specimens. I regularly see animals on your website that don't appear to be anything overly unique from what you now have available that has been bred in captivity.

In regards to Simon's comments, maybe he was generalising, and as you have agreed with, a lot of wild caught animals are difficult to breed in captivity. 

I will agree with Den that maybe some herpers would find breeding these wild caught animals a challenging experience, and i don't disagree that certain people with considerable experience be given the opportunity to work with these animals. But i see them generally available to any novice who applies for a license.

I see this as an unecessary practice and i can only imagine your underlying motive here is to bolster your business interests.

No malice intended, it is just my opinion!


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## llasher (Feb 25, 2008)

cris said:


> Apart from CB animals being brought up and adjusted to captivity from hatching I fail to see any advantages of CB over wild caught (provided they are colected in a fashion that is not detrimental to the population).
> 
> I personally think its a shame there isnt more regulated collecting allowed across Australia.


I bought this WC v CB topic up last year as a total newbie and it wasn't received real well. I am still a newbie, but can't understand how any native animal can be removed from a constantly diminishing habitat without it being "detrimental to the population".


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## cris (Feb 25, 2008)

llasher said:


> I bought this WC v CB topic up last year as a total newbie and it wasn't received real well. I am still a newbie, but can't understand how any native animal can be removed from a constantly diminishing habitat without it being "detrimental to the population".



Im fairly sure most times i mow the lawn i would probably kill a few garden skinks and _Litoria fallax_ even though unlike probably 99.99% of ppl i actually slow up for them(taking me about 10times longer to mow the lawn lol). Even though over the years i may have killed a number of these herps they still seem to be hanging in there by some remarkable fluke and garden skinks havnt become endangered yet. Garden skinks are however one of the rarest species legallly held in Australian collections...


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## notechistiger (Feb 25, 2008)

Question, as I have no experience in the area, but why is it so difficult to establish a captive breeding program to release snakes back into the wild?


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## cris (Feb 25, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Question, as I have no experience in the area, but why is it so difficult to establish a captive breeding program to release snakes back into the wild?



A range of factors -
possibility of disease transfer
questionable genetic integrity of CB stock
releasing animals can be detrimental to the ecosytem if not done correctly(even native species)
other reasons too


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## Jozz (Feb 25, 2008)

"and of course pay large fees of which every body hates"

This is why the departments continue to allow it, cause they're making money out of it.


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## notechistiger (Feb 25, 2008)

No, not _is_ it hard, I meant _why_ is it hard.


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## hazzard (Feb 25, 2008)

cris said:


> Im fairly sure most times i mow the lawn i would probably kill a few garden skinks and _Litoria fallax_ even though unlike probably 99.99% of ppl i actually slow up for them(taking me about 10times longer to mow the lawn lol). Even though over the years i may have killed a number of these herps they still seem to be hanging in there by some remarkable fluke and garden skinks havnt become endangered yet. Garden skinks are however one of the rarest species legallly held in Australian collections...



That maybe be the case, but if you were then to continually harvest garden skinks and frogs and sell them 50 at a time to petshops this surely would have an impact on your garden!


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## cris (Feb 25, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> No, not _is_ it hard, I meant _why_ is it hard.



my bad sorry.


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## cris (Feb 25, 2008)

hazzard said:


> That maybe be the case, but if you were then to continually harvest garden skinks and frogs and sell them 50 at a time to petshops this surely would have an impact on your garden!



Im not saying ppl should be able to collect garden skinks in destructive numbers, its just that i dont see any harm in regulated collection of herps in a way that doesn't have a negative impact on the population. I dont know much about how wild herps are allowed to be collected in Australia, but if it is damaging populations it should definitely be stopped and the collectors reponsible should be held accountable and punished. If collection permits are handed out to random idiots this should also be stopped.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 25, 2008)

cris said:


> Im not saying ppl should be able to collect garden skinks in destructive numbers, its just that i dont see any harm in regulated collection of herps in a way that doesn't have a negative impact on the population. I dont know much about how wild herps are allowed to be collected in Australia, but if it is damaging populations it should definitely be stopped and the collectors reponsible should be held accountable and punished. If collection permits are handed out to random idiots this should also be stopped.



So what would be the purpose of continually harvesting from the wild given the fact, according to someone who collects,that they breed in captivity as easily as CB animals?

More than enough of the animals on the takers lists have ended up in collections already to establish decent CB numbers so there is absolutely no need to keep taking other than the fact of making money.


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## liasis (Feb 25, 2008)

in my opinion it shnould be illegal to take any animals out of the wild for many resons we are destroying future generations and if the rest of australia can manage with capitive bred animals they should stay in the wild on top of that you could be bringing parasites into captive situations


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 25, 2008)

hazzard
Quote
Granted your experience is far greater than mine, but you elude to the fact that both yourself and Rob have been successful in breeding large numbers from wild caught animals (in the case of womas). So then why do you continue to plunder the wilderness for additional specimens? I regularly see animals on your website that don't appear to be anything overly unique from what you now have available that has been bred in captivity.

Reply
Well since your whole paragraph seems to be referring to woma’s?, then let’s discuss this. For your information I have no longer an immediate need to collect woma’s or black-headed pythons any more for our personal breeding programs and therefore seldom do so. Secondly you claim to regularly see animals on the website and yet the same woma’s have been advertised for the last twelve months are nearly all captive bred which seems somewhat irrelevant to this debate. It has to be remembered that even if I am successful in setting up breeding programs through the good results of others that produce captive bred pythons out side of W.A, I can not import them back into this state meaning that there is still a shortage in some cases of available captive bred snakes for the growing numbers of new licensee’s within this state. I will not pretend that there won’t be at times additional woma specimens harvested when required for our selves in the future or to supply to someone else who perhaps prefers a wild caught specimen over a captive bred, which by the way is often the case. While the D.E.H scientists believe that the species taken currently will not be detrimental to the sustainability of their existence in the wild, I morally have no problems with it. 

Quote 
In regards to Simon's comments, maybe he was generalizing, and as you have agreed with, a lot of wild caught animals are difficult to breed in captivity. 

Reply
Generalizing or not, his statement  was a warning against obtaining W.A wild caught reptiles without telling the full story and I stand by what I said in my first post.

Quote 
I will agree with Den that maybe some herpers would find breeding these wild caught animals a challenging experience, and i don't disagree that certain people with considerable experience be given the opportunity to work with these animals. But i see them generally available to any novice who applies for a license.

Reply
Even a novice should have no difficulty with any reptile we supply as our reptiles don’t get sold to any one unless they are doing well in captivity in the first place. 

Quote 
I see this as an unnecessary practice and i can only imagine your underlying motive here is to bolster your business interests.

Reply
Of course one of our motives is to make money, that fact has never been hidden.
I won’t however compromise the truth to paint a picture that suits my a gender though, this I can promise you. 

Cheers Dave


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## stencorp69 (Feb 25, 2008)

I love these debates you really get to see the hypocracy of eastern states herpers - if its so morally wrong to take from the wild none of you should be keeping herps now on principal, your animals all orginated from WC stock.

Some of the excuses for not keeping/breeding WC are laughable. WA has some of the best looking animals on off in the country and its possbily got something to do with the fact that the animals aren't all inbred and geographically hybridised.

Possibly the only issue is over harvest and it appears that may have happend in a number of areas, but in reality this appears to have been undertaken by illegal harvesting not licensed takers - which is going to happen anywhere.


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## llasher (Feb 25, 2008)

cris said:


> Im fairly sure most times i mow the lawn i would probably kill a few garden skinks and _Litoria fallax_ even though unlike probably 99.99% of ppl i actually slow up for them(taking me about 10times longer to mow the lawn lol). Even though over the years i may have killed a number of these herps they still seem to be hanging in there by some remarkable fluke and garden skinks havnt become endangered yet. Garden skinks are however one of the rarest species legallly held in Australian collections...


LOL! Is that your rationale for suggesting we allow snakes to be taken from the wild! Can I respectfully suggest we may need something more rigorous as an environmental impact study?


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## Morelia_Hunter (Feb 25, 2008)

Dont get worked up too much Pilbara, he is well known for making comments REMOVED Unfriendly attack on other member. And I will probably get into trouble for saying this.
i have dealt with many wild imports while i was living in my country of origin. And also dealt with many local wild caught animals. I never had problems with any, if you allow them to have a settling down period and treat them for parasites. Its true when you say they are governed by basic instinct. I do however think that some people want them to start behaving like a captive bred animal immediately and this is where the problem starts. Most of the more experienced keepers i know hardly ever handle their snakes except when it comes to cleaning time, i have some snakes that you would think are wild caught but they are not. Just form this lack of treating it like a pet. And these wild demons are some of my better breeders. Also with the big hype in locality animals, this would be a good way of acquiring and developing your own line of animal. Data is available of where it was collected and can be proven when selling the offspring to prospective buyers. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## caustichumor (Feb 25, 2008)

I don't mind the taking of wild caught, as long as it is done in a sustainable way. I think WC animals should only be available to experienced breeders to expand the bloodlines and gene-pool of the captive population..


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## sengir (Feb 25, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> I don't mind the taking of wild caught, as long as it is done in a sustainable way. I think WC animals should only be available to experienced breeders to expand the bloodlines and gene-pool of the captive population..


 

I think thats a great idea, but sadly can only ever be so in theory. Who then decides who is an experienced breeder, with such a large range of different and extenuating circumstances, it would be hard to have a criteria to control this that was effective JMO, but like I said good idea.


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## salebrosus (Feb 25, 2008)

As i said i would love to see those egernia pilbarensis in captivity. 

Simone.


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## zulu (Feb 25, 2008)

*re Wild*

Where did the georgetown stimsons come from,could they have been from a virgin birth in captivity ! :lol: They all come from the scrub at one time or another,in WA the department has to learn how to move on from one species to another,like stop the collection of womas and BHps and stimys and move on to others such as perthensis etc to keep buyers and takers incomes stable IMO.


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## Miss_Croft (Feb 25, 2008)

David – In my last post I was giving what I have read about wild caught V’s Captive bred animals. I did not give my opinion on “harvesting” animals from the wild. 

My personal opinion is as follows: Most – if not all Australian animals should have no restrictions on keeping (Other than local council registration) – that is scrap licensing of native animals. Most of the Australian natives live will in captivity – make better pets than cats (Some have issues like the platypus).

I am not sure about you – but I want the best for my pets – and would not like to see my pet die for any reason – I make sure my pet does not have parasites; I make sure my pet has adequate heat, water, food and housing. Most people are the same. 

The bottom line is people collecting (outside national parks) have a minimal impact on wild population compared to other activities (Like driving a car, keeping of cats and dogs as pets, feral animals). How many animals can be caught for the domestic pet trade? How many snakes can you catch out side a national park a day (10, 20, 100)? The answer is not many. 

As for those who say – wild animals should be left in the wild. I will say this – the Fisheries and Wild life guys down under through their miss management often burn out their parks killing most of the animals in its path. This is a greater threat than a few people collecting reptiles as pets. 

The bottom line is keeping native animals as pets will not put pressure on their population – but will keep the miss managed species for future generations.

As for the person who said there needs to be more studies done on this. I have this question: How does counting animals keep the population help that animal? All it tells you is yes there were 100 per square mile last year and only 50 this year. What are they doing to insure the population for future generations?


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## llasher (Feb 25, 2008)

There seem to be two parallel discussions here: one is comparing keeping of WC to CB and the other is the rights and wrongs of catching reptiles in the wild for pets/breeding. 

I have no doubt that most of the people who catch wild reptiles do so with the appropriate permits etc. and that in the scheme of things catching wild reps has much smaller impact than habitat destruction. Nevertheless I do think we have to be careful about a mindset that says Australia is a huge country and what's a few snakes when they are caught by a caring herp with a view to propagation for a good home. My purely anecdotal experience as someone who has lived in Australia for over 45 years and seen what is happening to this country is that we need to treat our native animals with the greatest respect. and as a precious resource.

And just because i live in the suburbs of SE Australia doesn't mean I don't have a right to be concerned about loss of native fauna.


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## whiterabbit (Feb 25, 2008)

I was just wondering on the differences in genetic fitness of wild caught over captive bred, and if this is a reason for some of the feeding problems people get with not only their snakes but other herps. As I see it in the wild if the animal wont eat or has something genetically wrong with it (not necessarily a physically visible trait) then it wont survive in the wild therefore will die and not be able to spread the undesirable gene. However with captive bred animals we try to get as many offspring as possible and give them the best chance at life (understandable), but what about the hatchings that don't eat and need to be force fed? would these specimens even survive in the wild? and should they be allowed to breed in captivity if we want to keep the captive population genetically fit? 
Could this be a reason to bring in the wild caught animals genes to keep the captive populations genetics fit? Just wondering on any others options, as I haven't had anything to do with wild caught animals does this argument seem valid?

Cheers
WR


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## Just_Joshin (Feb 25, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> It has to be remembered that even if I am successful in setting up breeding programs through the good results of others that produce captive bred pythons out side of W.A, I can not import them back into this state meaning that there is still a shortage in some cases of available captive bred snakes for the growing numbers of new licensee’s within this state.


That is where your arguement becomes weak. Should you not then set up a breeding programme or colony within your own state to begin to supply the people of WA?? I understand things are made difficuly due to the growing popularity of herptoculture across our country and the strict laws that WA have in place. However, this sadly is something that WAers should have to live with until such time that large enough captive specimens bred within WA are available or the current laws are changed. Contiuing to take from the wild to stock local herpers because you CHOOSE to send your captive breeding programmes interstate, therefore making the off-sping unavailable to people within your own state, i feel is wrong and it highlights my earlier arguements about WC harvesting.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm much fonder of CB animals than WC but I see no problem with a certain amount of animals being 'taken' from the wild to establish a good population in captivity (as long as key areas aren't 'raped' for decades). If Dave and others have made a few bucks by taking such animals legally then good for them. They get a few bucks, we get access to locale specific stock. 

Den


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## cris (Feb 25, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> I don't mind the taking of wild caught, as long as it is done in a sustainable way. I think WC animals should only be available to experienced breeders to expand the bloodlines and gene-pool of the captive population..



I agree, but it not only allows new bloodlines but new species, locality types and morphs to be collected aswell.


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## Just_Joshin (Feb 25, 2008)

stencorp69 said:


> I love these debates you really get to see the hypocracy of eastern states herpers - if its so morally wrong to take from the wild none of you should be keeping herps now on principal, your animals all orginated from WC stock.


 
Your helping us make our point with this statement. Yes our animals ORIGINATED from WC stock but that is it. Almost all stock from the eastern stated are now CB so that we don't have to keep harvesting. This ofcourse has the exception of a few new species or morphs that pop up.

This is why many of "hypocritical" easterns have pointed out the fact that every herper is PRIVILEDGED to be able to own herpers. Therefore that priviledge should be respected by setting up appropriate breeding programmes with founder specimens only. Continuing to take them because people "prefer them" or "need them" because those with the legal permits choose to make the CB stock unavailable to their state is what is so ridiculous.



stencorp69 said:


> WA has some of the best looking animals on off in the country and its possbily got something to do with the *fact that the animals aren't all inbred and geographically hybridised.*


I agree with you when you say WA has some of the best looking herps around, that fact is undisputed. However, stating that our animals are all geographically hybridised because we can't obtain WC specimens is ridiculous. What is to stop people is WA attempting to hybridise specimens obtained within WA. Hybridised is a persons own moral choice, not a by-product of not having WC stock available.

The same goes for the inbred comment. If people where to appropriately maintain there collection, no inbreeding would occur. However, people choose to inbred snakes as it is easier to expand your breeding output by supplying yourself and not having to purchase snakes from other. I don't support this but it is the case. The exact same thing will happen with in WA as collections of CB begin to grow with in the state.

It should be duely noted also, that inbreeding with in snakes does not have the negative genetic consequences that it does within other types of animal. If they were to be inbred, generation upon generation upon generation then issues may arise. However, once breeding pairs are established, these will be kept for years and years with out the need to continue inbreeding


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 25, 2008)

womanator
Your Quote
That is where your arguement becomes weak. 
Should you not then set up a breeding programme or colony within your own state to begin to supply the people of WA?? I understand things are made difficuly due to the growing popularity of herptoculture across our country and the strict laws that WA have in place. However, this sadly is something that WAers should have to live with until such time that large enough captive specimens bred within WA are available or the current laws are changed. Contiuing to take from the wild to stock local herpers because you CHOOSE to send your captive breeding programmes interstate, therefore making the off-sping unavailable to people within your own state, i feel is wrong and it highlights my earlier arguements about WC harvesting.

Reply
I am not arguing, I am simply answering questions by stating facts regardless of how strong or weak those answers may come across.

What makes you sure I haven’t now already set up breeding programs over here. I have, and it is going reasonably well so far. The hard economic reality is that in the past there was no, or at the best, very little demand for some species here in W.A. e.g. woma’s and Black-headed pythons. This was a direct consequence of a licensing system that made a cat 4 licence very hard to obtain and not because people didn’t desire the species. In fact currently there are still only about 150 cat 4 license holders. So most reptile dealers who specialized in cat 4 reptiles and solely relied on W.A demand first and ignored the export demand until later wouldn’t survive in the short term. Having had long winded discussions with the D.E.H about their attitude towards export, I can also tell their view, which is they do not have a problem with any reptile exports while there are not W.A keepers complaining that they can not obtain reptiles any where.


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## salebrosus (Feb 25, 2008)

womanator said:


> Should you not then set up a breeding programme or colony within your own state to begin to supply the people of WA?? .



I know of a particular individual in WA who kept and bred a large number of wellsi adders however a couple of years ago people were tearing shreds off him cos he wouldn't sell them. He was breeding them to try and get as much genetic variances happening and he refused to sell them unless they were in pairs as he felt that it served no purpose in keeping one as you couldn't breed them then hence less numbers in captivity. He was always copping grief for that.

Simone.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 25, 2008)

And just when I thought the fire was going out.....along came Rob
Holy smoke Rob, I thought I was less than tactful


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## Matthew Burgess (Feb 25, 2008)

*fresh blood needed*

noticed how topaz womas have gone from $2200 each to $2400 a pair in twelve months, yes i think someones sales have dropped dramatically since the introduction of WC reptiles from WA, and so the best way to increase sales is to convince people that WC are no good. and yes eventually inbreeding becomes a factor, thats why new bloodlines are vital, NT should allow the collection of uluru and tanami to create new blood lines as well.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 25, 2008)

Dave only stating the facts.

In the woma issue of rep/aust,(vol 4 issue 2) he also states that wa womas tend to be darker than tannamis, this i also do not agree with, infact ive seen more light coloured womas from wa than the nt. He also states that tannamis tend to have orange bellies and wa's yellow, well that also is untrue as as both forms occour in both states just as commonly.
Very unusual comments for him to make.!?.


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## Australis (Feb 25, 2008)

I catch native fauna to keep most weekends.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Feb 25, 2008)

Its a pity that there is actually not that many people that visit these forums. I'm sure a lot of truths will surface about intentions in the near future. i


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## zulu (Feb 25, 2008)

*re Wild*



Matthew Burgess said:


> noticed how topaz womas have gone from $2200 each to $2400 a pair in twelve months, yes i think someones sales have dropped dramatically since the introduction of WC reptiles from WA, and so the best way to increase sales is to convince people that WC are no good. and yes eventually inbreeding becomes a factor, thats why new bloodlines are vital, NT should allow the collection of uluru and tanami to create new blood lines as well.



Mathew,its just that womas have had the crap bred out of them all across the market,theres onley so much milk you can get from a cow before its stuffed,the same thing is happening with jungles,people and businesses have to move on like cows to new pastures with the fresh smell of dollar signs.


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## Isis (Feb 25, 2008)

So when I breed my womas, one being wild caught when a hatchie I can ask big bucks then.....????


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## Doc (Feb 25, 2008)

Hi Folks,
I've been away and got back home to find a whole lot of emails sent to me about this WC versus CB debate. I usually choose to avoid these debates because I find the tendency to personally attack people a very unattractive aspect of our fabulous hobby and I refuse to participate. To all those reading this thread, let me assure you that what I write in my articles (and threads like this) are my considered thoughts on a subject based on more than a bit of experience. I suspect that these accusations about my motivations are more of a reflection of what motivates others than me. However, I am guilty of not considering that my comments about WC versus CB reptiles would annoy certain commercial interests - it just plain didn't occur to me and perhaps it should have?

Anyway, in the interests of all those growing numbers of reptile keepers that don't have the advantage of years of experience in the hobby and at the risk of inflaming some commercial views, I would like to make my view on this crystal clear.

I think it is nothing short of totally irresponsible to suggest that wild caught reptiles are in any way comparable to captive bred animals. All of us that have been through the school of experience from the days when nearly everything was wild caught through to the situation today know this whether we will admit it or not. It was the advent of captive bred animals that totally changed breeding success and reptile keeping in Australia. Once the first captive bred animals were grown through to adults, disease issues declined markedly and breeding success accelerated dramatically. I have kept and bred a wide range of WC animals over the years and have kept records of survival rates of WC and CB animals and the difference is marked.

Without going into too much detail, the problem with WC is their disease load and that they are much more prone to stress in captivity. Yes WC animals will sometimes settle down to become OK in a captive environment and yes the younger they are the better the chances. Its a bit like the difference between catching a wild bird, wild cat or wild dog, compared to raising one from a hatchling or suckling baby. This analogy is also relevant in that the more experienced the keeper the better the acclimatization of a wild caught animal can be achieved - but its not something for the inexperienced.

Reptiles are an ancient group and carnivores like snakes have co-evolved with a large number of unpleasant organisms. They tend to carry large parasite loads, many of which are extremely difficult to remove with medication - for example protozoa like entameoba and the coccidia's. To suggest that wild caught are safer from a disease point of view than well kept captive bred animals is a nonsense. I leant this the hard way over many years and today I will not take WC into captivity unless I absolutely have to. If there is a particular desirable animal that only occurs in the wild then if at all possible I will try and buy captive hatched babies to raise to avoid disease and to minimise stress.

This leads me to the importance of WC animals. Without them, their wouldn't be captive bred animals or a reptile hobby like we have today. The albino carpet and albino olive came from WC animals. The rough-scales were added to captivity because of the dedication of JW to finding and breeding WC animals in captivity. A whole lot of wonderful WA forms would not be available to the hobby without the WA permit system allowing animals to be collected in the wild. However, for animal welfare reasons and the stress placed on WC animals I would like to think this practise can be minimised over time.

Some of you will agree with these comments (especially those that have been with the hobby since captive breeding first started being successful) and some will not. It is one of the great freedoms of this country that we can all have our say. We all love our reptiles so let's respect each other for our views and avoid personal attacks on each other. I don't think it improves any debate or advances the cause of our hobby??

Doc R.


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## Lovemysnakes (Feb 26, 2008)

Second that


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 26, 2008)

Simon 
Thanks for your reply, 

In regards to how things were in the past, it must be remembered that in the early days where most collections solely consisted of wild caught reptiles, besides worming (if worms were obvious), many keepers never even treated for internal parasites and had only basic experience in maintaining or providing conditions which would perhaps be to general and not adequate to all species. 
Herpterculture has come a long way since those days as have our understanding of individual species needs. This is why there are so many wild caught herps doing just fine these days.

Your analogy using birds and dogs is not the best, as we all know that pythons are far less intellectual than birds or dogs. Pythons rely primarily on instinct and often don’t even realize they are in captivity in the first place. This is why it is not uncommon to have them copulate or sometimes hand feeding immediately after capture. Try that with a wild bird. 

You say that some wild caught reptiles sometimes settle down to become okay. With W.A pythons (BHPs excluded) it is completely the other way around and quite rare to find one that doesn’t. This is exactly why these species are suited to keepers of any experience.
Don’t get me wrong here, I will never claim that wild caught (woma’s excluded) in the short term are as easy to breed as captive bred. 
Perhaps your article could have mentioned the wild caught species that have thrived e.g. womas and then it would have then not sounded so biased towards W.A wild snakes. 
Did this article upset commercial interests? yes, mine.
I wouldn’t mind so much if the full story was told but also realize that your article was your answer to a question and not a hearing for the wild caught story.

Cheers Dave


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## Slateman (Feb 26, 2008)

There will be always some people who will have strong opinion on way or the other.
I would like to remind you to be civil in this topic. So far so good. All people do have right to have a say, and to have a opinion. 
Please play nice, most of you posting in this topic are mature individuals and understand APS rules.


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## Tatelina (Feb 26, 2008)

Never mind.


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## Isis (Feb 26, 2008)

My 2cents worth. From my experience, I have a 4yr old female Tanami Woma that was originally wild caught, legally, as a hatchling. As far as her temprament feeding ect goes you could not get a better python. She has had one clutch whith her previous owner with all hatchies being good healthy easy feeding and handling snakes. I am really happy to have her in my collection as she has the qualities that I look for and I know that her genetics arent going to be close to any others around here. I dont know a lot about the genetics side of things and will never profess too. 
I dont believe that anyone should be able to capture WC animals but I do believe that some should be taken as a way of keeping purity in our python. Just my opinion.


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## Tristis (Feb 26, 2008)

reptiles have live in the bush with parasites form thousands of years, every wild reptile i have seen had some sort of parasite or another.


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## Miss_Croft (Feb 26, 2008)

Wild animals DO NOT stay in the same place most of their life - they can get away from parasites. Parasites are an issue for 2 reasons 
1. Caged reptiles are often "stressed"
2. Caged reptiles are unable to move away from parasites with direct life cycle (eg.snake mites) 

I also suggest if you are wanting to keep a snake as a "pet" - go for captive bred animals. If you are a breeder like David - then you should have enough experince to make your own decision on what is best for your needs.


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## iceman (Feb 26, 2008)

once a wild caught animal is clean'd out an wormimg an etc..... an demite'd, are fine, an people that handle there animals all the time, are one ones with stress out animals, they dont get handle all the time in the wild, so why should captive bred animals be any different? all my adult WA stimmies are wild caught, all clean'd out the right way, an none of them are stress out. an imo there are more disease's in captivity like OMPV to name just one of the many, most if not all disease's in captivity are not found in the wild.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 26, 2008)

iceman said:


> once a wild caught animal is clean'd out an wormimg an etc..... an demite'd, are fine, an people that handle there animals all the time, are one ones with stress out animals, they dont get handle all the time in the wild, so why should captive bred animals be any different? all my adult WA stimmies are wild caught, all clean'd out the right way, an none of them are stress out. an imo there are more disease's in captivity like OMPV to name just one of the many, most if not all disease's in captivity are not found in the wild.



Im fairly sure that IBD has been found in WA in the wild.Maybe as far back as 10 years ago.Will try and dig up the info I have seen about it.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 26, 2008)

what a joke!!!!!!

Tell a few truths and it gets deleted. Very one sided indeed. Come on whats going on here.!!!!

His statements were wrong, in many ways, so why cant he answer my questions???????


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## mungus (Feb 26, 2008)

Slateman said:


> There will be always some people who will have strong opinion on way or the other.
> I would like to remind you to be civil in this topic. So far so good. All people do have right to have a say, and to have a opinion.
> Please play nice, most of you posting in this topic are mature individuals and understand APS rules.



" mature individuals "
Where....:shock::shock::shock:
Ahhh there a rock........:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Sorry could'nt help myself...


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## Slateman (Feb 26, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> what a joke!!!!!!
> 
> Tell a few truths and it gets deleted. Very one sided indeed. Come on whats going on here.!!!!
> 
> His statements were wrong, in many ways, so why cant he answer my questions???????



Your comment was deleted because of your personal attacks and unfriendly nature.
I pm you and asked to write it again in civil manner and your post will be published.
We really don't want to start fights here and insult other people. If you can't post in civil manner because you are to passionate about this issue, just ask Pilbarra Python to post behalf of you. 
But admins can't leave in forum your last 2 posts.
any argument can be expressed in civil manner.

This is public answer on public complain from your side. I would prefer to sort this in PM, as I started originally.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 26, 2008)

Now come on now young Robbie, Dr Pilbara says, have your self a cup of coffee and go catch some fish, it is very good for your blood pressure.


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## Slateman (Feb 26, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Now come on now young Robbie, Dr Pilbara says, have your self a cup of coffee and go catch some fish, it is very good for your blood pressure.



LOL I had no Idea that you are doctor.
But well said. Rob is running hot sometimes. I hope that this discussion will be polite and meaningful from now on.
It is interesting to see what people think about this subject, but really we don't want the fights here.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 26, 2008)

hahaha, gee its funny though how the truth offends some people, isnt it.!!!!

With the viruses we have running rampant around the country atm it is infact imo far safer to aquire a healthy cleaned out wild caught animal than it is to aquire a captive bred animal out of someones collection.
simon rang me last year and we talked about this exact subject, he agreed it was safer to get w/c rather than c/b for this reason. He was after all looking for wild caught wa stimmies at the time. All i would like to know is why he has since changed his mind.?????
I hope this is a bit better.


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## cockney red (Feb 26, 2008)

*Captivating thread. Few vendettas seem to be erupting, as the sap rises. I see pros on all sides.
New blood always needed for obvious reasons, just as long as the harvesting is sustainable. Their will always be people who profit from wild harvesting. This is ok as long as the $$$ doesn't transcend all that we love and cherish out in the Bush. 
*


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## Colin (Feb 26, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> it is infact imo far safer to aquire a healthy cleaned out wild caught animal than it is to aquire a captive bred animal out of someones collection.



what exactly are you saying here Rob? :lol: your a someone aren't you? 

That it's safer to buy WC animals than captive bred animals from your own collection due to health issues?? :shock:


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## Reptilian (Feb 26, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> hahaha, gee its funny though how the truth offends some people, isnt it.!!!!
> 
> With the viruses we have running rampant around the country atm it is infact imo far safer to aquire a healthy cleaned out wild caught animal than it is to aquire a captive bred animal out of someones collection.
> simon rang me last year and we talked about this exact subject, he agreed it was safer to get w/c rather than c/b for this reason. He was after all looking for wild caught wa stimmies at the time. All i would like to know is why he has since changed his mind.?????
> I hope this is a bit better.



Interesting, very interesting...

I would challenge anyone to pick which of my snakes is WC vs. CB based on a myriad of things from health to temperament etc... I have both WC snakes some of which from dave, and some from others, and the same goes for my CB snakes... If some of you are "all so professional" and there are such marked differences, then please come forward...

I have and will continue to buy WC specimans...


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## TrueBlue (Feb 26, 2008)

Colin,- yes your correct, im a some one too, and although i know i dont have IBD or paramixo its only my word that people can go on, so in that sence its still a risk in thier eyes yes.

That is why i feel far more comfortable getting w/c off Dave than an animal from anyone at all, except a very few limted number of keepers, and even then only when i have to as it always plays on my mind.
Trust me these viruses are running rampant and a number of people around the country have known they had a problem yet still carried on dealing. Very bad indeed. 

W/C also have the advantag of gaining new genetics for breeding programs and untill you breed from these animals you dont know what could appear, its exciting stuff, beats the hell out of breeding line bred animals that genetically dont have much or anything left to offer.


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## ravensgait (Feb 26, 2008)

Well this is a discussion that I've not seen very often..

I have a lot of experience with WC animals Emeralds both Northerns and Basin. Amazon tree boas, Solomon Island three and ground boas, Rainbow Boas, Chondro's of many localities, IJ Carpet pythons, Boa Constrictors, Morelia Nauta, Morelia Clastolepis, Papuan pythons and I'm sure I have omitted a few others here. I'll also note that many of these animals have taken a very long trip to reach us over here and you folks don't have that problem with WC animals there. Some of the animals I've worked with are a bit touchy even as CBB's. Also almost every WC animal I've ever dealt with had parasites and or diseases to one extent or another, some of a type or severity that the animal had to be destroyed.

As in everything there are exceptions and I hate to say it like this but you can't have an informed opinion on the subject unless you have dealt with a number of both WC and CB animals of different species.

I'll pick one that you do have there that being Chondro's an animal that was very difficult to get established and took a long time to figure out how to get consistent results breeding. We can get Wild caught, Farm bred (for those that don't know these are captive bred babies from farms in Indo.) and Captive born and bred animals here in the US. You can pick any person with experience with these three CBB, FB, and WC and they will tell you that when looking at the over all success of the animal, IE it is healthy, reproduces readily and lives for an extended period of time and they will tell you that by far CBB animals are more successful. Captive breeding has taken this animal from being an animal that most only use to dream of having to an animal that with some experience most anyone can keep, even novices that do their home work have had success with CBB animals. Like I said above there are exceptions but as a rule CBB animals are healthier easier to keep and live longer than WC animals do.

I agree that bringing WC animals in adds to and enhances what we have already and I feel that as long as it doesn't adversely affect the long term survival of the species it should be allowed to continue. Wild Caught animals are as has been said very important because without them there would be no Captive bred animals and they will continue to help add to CBB lines as long as we are able to collect them.. Randy


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## niggz (Feb 26, 2008)

Please correct me if i'm wrong but from what I have read in various magazine articles and a visit to the Aussie Reptile Park I understand that the current captive population of Rough Scaled Pythons was established from just five wild caught animals. A breeding program was started and now several people breed RSP's and many people now own RSP's. 
In my opinion this is a good example of how wild caught animals should be used to establish captive bred populations and then left alone. Obviously RSP's still command a hefty price at the moment, but I'm sure most other species were expensive when they were first established.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 26, 2008)

ravensgait,-- i agree with you to a point, except we are talking about cleaned out, established w/c animals, all of which are feeding and doing well for a lengthy period of time in captivity before they are sold. 
Not straight from the bush, untreated animals, that can be housed with a large number of other animals, of not always the same species, before being exported over seas to you guys. Having to deal with alot of those sort of animals, espcially certain species like chondros, would be a nightmare i agree.
Dave is a very honest person, ( thats about the only nice thing i can think of to say about him thou, lol), and he makes sure all the animals hes sells to people are doing well and have been cleaned out, thats just what he does. Im sure that everyone is happy with what they have recieved from him to date.
The other problem we have here at the moment is IBD and paramixo. Its every where and keeps getting spread further a field because alot of people that are getting it keep sweeping it under the carpet.
An other good point to make about animals comming out of wa is that most are desert species, which habour far less parasites than animals from tropical areas.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 26, 2008)

Randy
I can only speak about the Australian species that I have kept, bred and dealt with, and it has been for me and many others a very happy and often a very productive experience.
I have no doubt that with many of the exotic species you guys get to see imported in your country, it is a different scenario not to mention the diseases this lucky country has seldom (at least up until recently ), ever had to face. 
Another factor in the past was where many of your exotics were sourced from. I know for a fact that many of those reptiles used to go through many hands of inexperienced collectors and animal welfare was not a huge concern and nor did they know how to treat them correctly. A typical example is from a friend of mine supervising an illegal shipment of green pythons that had just arrived into Singapore without his knowledge to a well known reptile park where he worked and from well known international smugglers. There was nearly 50 green python including a few adults crammed into a briefcase.
The legalized trade here in W.A has licence protocol in place regarding welfare to adhere to, hence a better quality reptile ending up into the hands of the keeper.
I myself cannot claim to know how good or bad captive bred verses wild caught in your country is as I simply don’t know and therefore believe what you say. I am sure though that the comparison (because of the completely different reptiles involved) is not a balanced one and therefore does not accurately portray the same scenario, or result. 

Cheers Dave


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## bump73 (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree with what Niggz said..

I mean how many do you really have to keep taking from the wild in order to set up a stable breeding program, especially if wild caught animals breed as well as people are claiming???

I know disease is a problem in peoples collections but doesn't this mean these animals may be getting exposed to more diseases in captivity than they would have if they had been left in the wild? 

Ben


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## DazHerps (Feb 26, 2008)

Seems to me that, generally, wc stuff here in Aus can be reasonably trouble free to keep and breed given the right conditions and a sensible approach to establishing them (from both sides of the fence). 
It has only been during the last several years that locality specific animals such as rhd woma's, rabbit flat woma's, uluru woma's, cape trib jungles, tully jungles, alice stimi's, cairns spotteds, grafton diamonds, pilbara stimi's, carpets from almost every major town (and let's not start on the lizards), have become available to the market. *Where did all these come from*, I certainly don't remember them from 10+ years ago.
Let's face it, many of the animals that are in collections now are the result of wc animals within the last few generations and are now well established. 
As for the WA govt stance on legal collection of species, I support them completely in the short/medium term (I assume there are expiry dates on theses lisences?) 
Far too many reptiles have been lost over the years by numerous individuals with little or no herp experience collecting them from the wild. At least in WA there are persons that actually have a name, a face, an interest in herps and a legitimate business that's success depends on how well they do this job rather than how many animals they collect. More than likely, they have also slowed the illegal collection of the species that they are permitted to take. 

Just my 2 bits worth.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 26, 2008)

i agree cockney red, thats why i love to breed pythons.
Thats also why Dave now only collects minimal animals, that have to be spectacular, as hes is also concerntraiting on breeding rather than collecting.

DazHerps,-- well said.


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## stencorp69 (Feb 26, 2008)

womanator said:


> Your helping us make our point with this statement. Yes our animals ORIGINATED from WC stock but that is it. Almost all stock from the eastern stated are now CB so that we don't have to keep harvesting. This ofcourse has the exception of a few new species or morphs that pop up.


 
Don't think your helping your own point - the "almost all's" and "the exceptions" are how you are getting all your locale specific animals - the animals most people want, the hypocracy is blinding.



> This is why many of "hypocritical" easterns have pointed out the fact that every herper is PRIVILEDGED to be able to own herpers. Therefore that priviledge should be respected by setting up appropriate breeding programmes with founder specimens only. Continuing to take them because people "prefer them" or "need them" because those with the legal permits choose to make the CB stock unavailable to their state is what is so ridiculous.


 
READ your first paragraph it confirms the hypocracy



> I agree with you when you say WA has some of the best looking herps around, that fact is undisputed. However, stating that our animals are all geographically hybridised because we can't obtain WC specimens is ridiculous. What is to stop people is WA attempting to hybridise specimens obtained within WA. Hybridised is a persons own moral choice, not a by-product of not having WC stock available.


 
Nothing is stopping us hybridising them - I'm just stating the facts of 20 years of breeding in the eastern states. Do a search on this website and you'll see how common it is. You guys actually need some WC to stop the Tasminian syndrome.



> The same goes for the inbred comment. If people where to appropriately maintain there collection, no inbreeding would occur. However, people choose to inbred snakes as it is easier to expand your breeding output by supplying yourself and not having to purchase snakes from other. I don't support this but it is the case. The exact same thing will happen with in WA as collections of CB begin to grow with in the state.


 
Probably less so because we have legal taking and takers GPS locations - this allows true locale specific lines which are more desirable (according to what people want to pay).



> It should be duely noted also, that inbreeding with in snakes does not have the negative genetic consequences that it does within other types of animal. If they were to be inbred, generation upon generation upon generation then issues may arise. However, once breeding pairs are established, these will be kept for years and years with out the need to continue inbreeding


 
I'm not sure that that is correct, true IMO its less of an issue breeding mother/son in reptiles than mammals but if a if you've got 20 years of crap inbreeding selection the animals are going to be mongrels. For some that standard maybe acceptable.

Sten

(sitting at home loving his pure WC WA pythons)


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## ihaveherps (Feb 26, 2008)

Trueblue, how come you have skirted around the initial quote that Dave used in the first post?

Apart from the Pilbara Womas that you have acquired, which have proven to be profound breeders, what other Pilbara species have you bred? We know you have a few BHP's and Stimsons from up there, and I have seen you advertise QLD BHP hatchies, and even Windorah and NT stimmys, yet never seen you sell a single Pilbara BHP or Stimson. Why is that? It wouldnt possibly be that apart from the Pilbara womas, Pilbara wild caught animals

" with sort of back ground, or that are only first generation captive bred animals can be much more touchy and difficult to care for and breed than multigenerational captive bred animals. It worth bearing in mind that the shorter the captive history of a breeding line typically the more difficult it is to breed and the more sensitive to human intervention."

Maybe? 

I am all for sustainable wild caught animals entering the market, dont get me wrong, although I personally dont think they are for everyone. Some experienced keepers would thrive given the opportunity to take WC animals in, to breed up a good founder lines, yet not all WC sub-species are as profound as womas, and thus not for the novice to breed. Before I get a half-cooked reply, no, I havent had any personal experience with the Pilbara WC's although pre-licencing all my herps were WC, and took considerably more effort to keep than CB hatchies available these days, especially if purchased from a breeder who gets their stock feeding pre-sale.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 27, 2008)

ihaveherps
Since Rob is clearly in bed at this time at night, I will give you some insight. 
There has been four clutches layed in total out of all the stimsons exported to breeding programs and 2 of those were infertile. Rob doesn’t have any Pilbara stimsons anymore and hasn’t had for quite sometime and these were gone even before last winters cooling. Due to personal circumstances Rob no longer wanted to maintain such a large collection anymore so he could go back to a far less hectic laid back lifestyle. So I guess he can’t breed reptiles that he doesn’t have.
Infact Rob no longer has in his care green pythons, Palmerston jungles, most of the W.A BHPs and much more.

No captive bred W.A BHPs were produced from Rob this season because of the lack of condition of his females and even if they had the condition, we all no that this is one python that are generally more difficult to breed, no ones argues other wise.
But it is still early days and we will get these happening, I am sure of that.


If you genuinely believe that first generation captive bred of spring have a less
desirable temperament than multi generation captive bred, then good luck to you.
I am far from convinced however and still think it is just marketing hype.
If I am proved wrong however through further experience though, then I would be happy to know, I learnt even more.
Just for interest sake, here is another W.A Reptile dealer ( Roger Jackson )perspective as posted up today on the true blue reptile forum.

Hi all I have collected many wild caught costal carpet pythons and have bred from all of the animals which I have chosen to keep to breed from .But some are more difficult than others,personaly i think it comes down to the individual animal within indivdual species.I have freinds on the east coast that have 3,4,thgeneration captive bred animals and still have trouble breeding some of the individuals they put aside to breed from for colour and pattern etc.

cheers
Jolli


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 27, 2008)

Of note, would this thread be one of the most viewed in a very long time ? 3600 or something ?


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## stencorp69 (Feb 27, 2008)

Dave I thought I saw you post a pic of all your stimi hatchies for this year - did a search on the PP website but couldn't find the link. 

This whole argument is done anyway its clear there is pros and cons either way


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## sengir (Feb 27, 2008)

I am not taking a stance on this one as I do not have enough experience with WC animals, but from facts given about what was written in the Rep Australia mag this comment was made as a direct blow to try influence the purchase of WC animals. If it wasn't then maybe Simon should have made more of an effort to explain his view etc in a little more detailed way and explained how and why he came to this conclusion. Just my two cents


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## ihaveherps (Feb 27, 2008)

Cheers Dave, your post is exactly what i was alluding to, although you do seem to be the better wordsmith. You have fronted this debate in a well written, well manner fashion, and I commend you for that. I have no doubt with due care and husbandry fine tuning, all the pilbara animals will be routinely bred, but as I was trying to convey prior, wc individuals will usually be more demanding of their keepers and require a much higher level of understanding of husbandry to breed, not that its impossible by any way or means. There is a big difference in being able to keep a WC animals, and being able to condition and cycle them and result in viable eggs (of course dependant of sub-species and locale, and I am talking Pilbara in this thread).

"If you genuinely believe that first generation captive bred of spring have a less
desirable temperament than multi generation captive bred, then good luck to you."

I dont think thats how my post read, nor was it what I was trying to convey. To me captive bred = captive bred = captive bred, no matter what generation. I completely believe that a CB animal, even 1st gen. will generally be an allround more stable a captive than it WC counterpart. All that being said, I personally have no problems bringing in WC stock, and those that know me will attest that I am planning on collecting a few WC Stimsons from various WA locales within the next yr. I am actually looking forward to having my husbandry tested by difficult captives (not saying they all will be), and having to adjust my keeping strategys to suit the individual animals.

regards
Simon


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## ravensgait (Feb 27, 2008)

True as I mentioned I have dealt with animals that were a long time in shipping and of some species quite different than you have there . I am looking at this as purely Wild caught as to Captive born and bred. Also I'm looking at this from a perspective of the average keeper but also as an experienced keeper. The Average person is going to have some trouble with most WC animals fresh from the wild. Where someone with experience will have better success they still will have problems with some. And lets not forget that they had to gain experience and so had their share of hard times..

To give you an idea of of how long I've messed with WC animals I got my first in 77 a WC ball python, yeah been keeping for a while now lol..

As far as first generation CB animals being more difficult than succeeding generations I suppose to a certain extant it is true.. What do we look for in animals we choose to breed, Appearance, size, health, temperament ETC , Getting the babies feeding is important and what they want to eat. Mice eaters can be hard to change to rats when older, some animals are just more nervous than others or what ever . 

Take-- insert species name of choice here ________ you've bred your WC pair and have a group of babies that have say one real stand out as far a looks go so you're keeping that one . Yet you need to keep say 3 or 4 more from the clutch. What are you going to look for in those babies you keep? Your going to want to keep the ones that started well, seem content in their surroundings IE not as nervous as others, your going to pick ones that over all seem to be doing better than the others(doesn't matter if it's puppies or snakes some babies take off faster than others and are just more robust) So say there are 10 babies and you are holding back 5, now the other 5 are going to be released to the public . Some may be bred some might not survive their new owners but over all those animals will not add much to succeeding generations but the 5 you kept will add to it . You can take it farther to breeding these babies those that breed more easily are the ones that deal with everything else better you get more babies from animals that are willing than from those who are not.. Even your looker from the clutch though it may have been a more difficult animal is likely to be bred to an animal that was an easier keeper and there by improve its offspring's ability to thrive in captivity.

Most people who really breed keep the best animals back for themselves to breed, thus the animals with all the best traits are most likely to add far more to following generations than the babies that were a bit more difficult so yes each generation away from WC does get better or easier to keep as over all we have bred the animals that have adapted best to captivity. Again there are exceptions but over all we keep and breed the best animals and each generation becomes better suited to thriving in captivity. Randy


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## Chimera (Feb 27, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> That is why i feel far more comfortable getting w/c off Dave than an animal from anyone at all, except a very few limted number of keepers, and even then only when i have to as it always plays on my mind.



This is the key point, Dave may well establish wild caught animals before they are on-sold however some people won't. So far Dave and Simon have simply presented 2 sides of the same coin. There are positives and negative for both wild caught and captive bred reptiles and new keepers are far better off with a captive bred reptile rather then a wild caught.

Breeders trying to establish true provenance animals will certainly benefit from wild caught.

Any argument based on disease, locality or any form of misrepresentation on this topic is ludicrous as this can happen with either WC or CB animals. It comes down to the individual so bringing these points to the debate only serves to personalise the discussion. Granted, there may be breeders who have virus issues in their collection, but there could also be WC animals that are not being effectively quarantined from personal collections.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 27, 2008)

ihaveherps, as Dave has stated ive cut my collection down by half or more, as i just couldnt produce enough food to breed everything, simple as that.! 
The first season i had evreything here i only had 1 mature female pilbara stimmie and it also bred.
The wa bhps, well i just couldnt get enough food to get the females into breeding condition as i had just too many other animals to feed as well, not to mention the 200 odd babies that had to be fed before they could go.
So ive done the wise thing and cut everything right back so that everything will breed as normal.
You can only breed, what you can feed propally.
Im confident that the couple of wa bhps that i kept back will breed this season.


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## Colin (Feb 27, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> It has to be remembered that even if I am successful in setting up breeding programs through the good results of others that produce captive bred pythons out side of W.A, I can not import them back into this state meaning that there is still a shortage in some cases of available captive bred snakes for the growing numbers of new licensee’s within this state.



If these WC animals are so easy to maintain, breed etc as stated exactly why haven't the WA breeders established sustainable captive programs to supply the local WA domestic market? This seems to go against all that has been said on the pro side for WC. How come the people 'outside WA' seem to have success establishing these WC animals but the WA's seem unable to do so in sufficient numbers for their own local trade? 

Additionally when you look at the success (for example) Simon Stone had with 1 WC animal ie:blondie and John Weigal with the initial 5 founding RSP's. These animals have been established with young sold to others and they in turn have successful breeding programs.. 

Stimson pythons (for example) are considered by many as reasonably easy to breed and suggested to beginners as ideal starting species. It seems ludicrous to suggest that the WC WA animals just haven't been established in there own state to supply the local market with some CB animals. What exactly are the Western Australian's doing wrong ? 



Ramsayi said:


> So what would be the purpose of continually harvesting from the wild given the fact, according to someone who collects, that they breed in captivity as easily as CB animals?
> 
> More than enough of the animals on the takers lists have ended up in collections already to establish decent CB numbers so there is absolutely no need to keep taking other than the fact of making money.



Well said Mark. WC definitely has a place in the hobby, but should be used to establish sustainable captive breeding programs.


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## Matthew Burgess (Feb 27, 2008)

i find it amazing that we have all dreamt of keeping these WA species for many years (when they wernt available) and now they are available people whinge, all founder stock of every species be it bird, mammal, reptile or fish originated from wild animals, people wouldnt (legally) have these WA species if it wernt for WC animals, as far as wild caught being more difficult to keep/breed then CB i think it comes down to the individual animal and the way its housed.


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## Colin (Feb 27, 2008)

What I find amazing is this  Don't both quote's say basically the same thing? That WC animals 'can be' more difficult to breed and maintain than captive bred aninmals? Yet the first quote started this whole thread. 



> 'Snakes with sort of back ground, or that are only first generation captive bred animals *can be *much more touchy and difficult to care for and breed than multigenerational captive bred animals." .





> Many people believe that wild caught snakes are harder to breed than captive born.
> While this *can be *true with individual specimens my experience has shown me that all wild caught species of pythons can indeed be bred successfully in captivity if maintained correctly and specimens have appropriately adapted to their captive environment


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## salebrosus (Feb 27, 2008)

stencorp69 said:


> You guys actually need some WC to stop the Tasminian syndrome.



How rude, John Bowe is from Tasmania and he is not inbred. 

I certainly love wild caughts for that reason, you know the location and you know its an animal that isn't a 5th generation inbred.

Simone.


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## Slateman (Feb 27, 2008)

I am not expert on this subject about WC or CB snakes. Far from it. But I know bit about forum discussions.
I am so happy that people are communicating on great social level in this topic.
This thread is example of meaningful discussion you can get on public forum, if people behave like mature adults.
Well done APS members.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 27, 2008)

ravensgait
Your quote
The Average person is going to have some trouble with most WC animals fresh from the wild. Where someone with experience will have better success they still will have problems with some.

Reply
Here in W.A most of us will only supply wild caught snakes that are doing fine in the first place. It would be suicide as a business to do otherwise.
This is why I say the opposite; the majority of people will experience no difficulty. 

I must add that I witnessed an emaciated black headed python (not far from death) for sale in a pet shop in Perth last year. I asked the shop keepers when it had last fed and not one person could tell me, or if they had ever had it feeding as they had only purchased it three weeks prior. I tracked down the supplier and explained the ramifications in regard to his reputation if he supplied un feeding troublesome critters. He agreed and no longer does so. So the point is that there can still be the odd cowboy out there but generally the W.A situation with responsible suppliers is good. 

As we are the biggest exporters of some species of pythons, this is why I took offence to the original statements by Simon Stone (regardless of his intention), as W.A was singled out in an answer (about snakes) and the negatives attached which I believed applied generally but less to the true scenario in regards to snakes supplied by us and a few others.

This whole discussion thread has some what evolved away from the relevance of my initial whinge but I guess I did title the thread, Wild Caught Debate after all.
It’s been fun though (what am I crazy)

Cheers Dave


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## Australis (Feb 27, 2008)

Colin said:


> If these WC animals are so easy to maintain, breed etc as stated exactly why haven't the WA breeders established sustainable captive programs to supply the local WA domestic market? This seems to go against all that has been said on the pro side for WC. How come the people 'outside WA' seem to have success establishing these WC animals but the WA's seem unable to do so in sufficient numbers for their own local trade?.



From what i can gather, on how the system works with CALM in WA, compared to the eastern states.
At face value CALM doesnt look to be very supportive of captive breeding at all for the average herper.

Your average bloke can only "sell" one clutch a year?? Or something along those lines....
Maybe someone from WA could explain the nitty gritty.. on this.

I would also *guess* that just about everyone who imports a WA w/c animal over to the east has plans
to breed from it, which might not be the case within WA.. being more of a pet snake market.
Atleast EVERY person i know who has imported WA w/c animals has on the basis to breed from them.


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## stencorp69 (Feb 27, 2008)

Colin said:


> Stimson pythons (for example) are considered by many as reasonably easy to breed and suggested to beginners as ideal starting species. It seems ludicrous to suggest that the WC WA animals just haven't been established in there own state to supply the local market with some CB animals. What exactly are the Western Australian's doing wrong ?


 
OK - I've got a suggestion to answer your question. Get rid of 95% the captive eastern states reptiles and take see if you can breed enough in 4 years to meet the demand - you couldn't do it even with CB. Most people who are interested in breeding are actually having success with stimi, woma and carpets but given that we can only sell 1 clutch with out paying $1000 per year for a farmers license it makes it a bit unrealistic to think that we can support demand via CB for a few years yet. Even then let's hope we still have a system which allows "exceptions" to be taken to improve breeding lines.

Simone sorry about the Tasmania jibe if it makes you feel any better Perth is proof that Tasmania was connected to the mainland :lol::lol: (I'm an itinerant over here)

Sten


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## Chimera (Feb 28, 2008)

stencorp69 said:


> OK - I've got a suggestion to answer your question. Get rid of 95% the captive eastern states reptiles and take see if you can breed enough in 4 years to meet the demand - you couldn't do it even with CB. Most people who are interested in breeding are actually having success with stimi, woma and carpets but given that we can only sell 1 clutch with out paying $1000 per year for a farmers license it makes it a bit unrealistic to think that we can support demand via CB for a few years yet. Even then let's hope we still have a system which allows "exceptions" to be taken to improve breeding lines.



It doesn't change the fact that it is ludicrous that captive bred populations haven't been established in WA, it simply means that the regulators are to blame.


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## bump73 (Feb 28, 2008)

Seeing how much these WA snakes are selling for you would think $1000 for a farmers licence would be well worth the investment....

Ben


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## Colin (Feb 28, 2008)

bump73 said:


> Seeing how much these WA snakes are selling for you would think $1000 for a farmers licence would be well worth the investment....




Exactly. Although it might be a bit expensive for the person with one pair of snakes... If you had several breeding pairs you would quickly recoup that $1000 and still make a considerable profit. How much do the WA snakes sell for in WA?? consideranbly more than over here. If you have the breeding animals and $1000 to spare (and if you have a few animals this would be quite likely) then although its probably overpriced, to not get the farmer's licence is ludicrous. :lol:

Hiding behind that 'expensive' farmers licence scenario Stencorp is just a cop out for why there hasn't been sustainable captive breeding programs set up in WA to supply the local market. Although there probably is a growing interest in reptile keeping and new people coming into it in WA, I can't see that it would compare to the growing rise of interest in the eastern states. I don't have figures on this and may be wrong but would assume that this would be the case. 

If legal collecting stopped in WA then extensive captive breeding programs in WA would appear overnight (imo) 



stencorp69 said:


> Get rid of 95% the captive eastern states reptiles and take see if you can breed enough in 4 years to meet the demand - you couldn't do it


Agreed  why? Because WC animals are (generally) no way as good in the captive environment as multigenerational CB animals :lol:


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## chilli (Feb 28, 2008)

i think that programmes are unlikely to be invested in because of the perception that you can't compete with businesses that can take from the wild an unlimited number. if the demand was there, wc's would supply the numbers before anyone bred them. 

and folks, you don't have to express your view thirty times just to keep the thread going, it really aint as interesting as you think dave. what's the phrase, mountain out of a mole hill?


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 28, 2008)

Another reason why there is an extreme lack of enthusiasm in holding a farmers licence, is a loop hole in legislation. Any given keeper can dispose of unlimited clutches to a dealer if they considered them unwanted stock and this can be done immediately. Farmers rules however are different i.e. they can not move stock until three month after any progeny is born. Although this does not perhaps affect the number of reptile clutches being produced so much in a private capacity, it does make it a lot less commercially attractive to be an official licensed farmer. Although the keeper rules state that un wanted stock cannot be sold but only given away to licensed dealers, most are paid for under the table so to speak thus creating competition for the licensed farmers and as a consequence,( and like I have said before) less incentive to become a farmer in the first place. 

The current supply as in wild caught is keeping up with the demand for most species,
The question that remains though, is the wild collecting sustainable? The government departments, who specialize in over seeing the conservation of those reptiles, say yes.
Make no mistake though in the future here in W.A, there will be enough consistently bred to end the wild collecting of most species. 

chilli
Perhaps interesting is not the appropriate word, maybe I should have said entertainment after all the number of views speak for themselves.


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 28, 2008)

Australis has it in one!!! I can speak with authority here, whilst I don't want to get into the argument re CBB vs WC (each has advantages in my opinion, and I have been keeping both, in WA and the eastern states, for over 45 years)... I was on the committee of 3 people who finally negotiated the "system" which now exists in WA. I should say also at this point that in the final detail, it bears little resemblance to what we (thought) we were promised when negotiations concluded.

There are HUGE impediments to large scale captive breeding in WA, this namely the up-front costs involved. The $1000 "farmers" licence which is required of anyone who breeds more than one clutch of ANYTHING (even bobtails, which only have 2 babies!) is a total absurdity, and simple a bureaucratic ripoff. This only serves to discourage hobby keepers from breeding, and greatly reduces the chances of larger numbers of CB animals becoming available. 

The keeping of (pet) reptiles in WA became law in March 2003, and subsequently a number of people applied for, and were given, licences to take from the wild. Some of these licences turned up in the most unlikely hands, and some collectors had absolutely no experience with reptiles at all, but rightly saw the chance of an easy dollar. I'm not sure how many "takers" licences remain extant at this time, but it reflects very poorly on the management of the Wildlife Branch of DEC (formerly CALM) that captive breeding results in WA remain so poor, and that any of the original "takers" licences remain current. They have been operative for almost 5 years now, with no restriction on the numbers of the nominated species being imposed.

The fact that captive breeding results in the herp community in WA have been so poor HAS to be because the punitive costs imposed by CALM/DEC work as a significant deterrent to breeding activities, and the fact that home breeders can ONLY sell to dealers (unless they fork out several hundred dollars more for a dealer's licence!), so they can effectively only ask for half as much per animal as the dealer/seller will realise for it. It is an absurd situation, and one that simply defies logic.

5 years unlimited take of targetted species should be sufficient time to get the numbers required into the system and get some decent breeding results happening... but it seems there has been no forwrad planning by the department on this matter at all.

By the way, I am not against selective, limited wild take from time to time anywhere in this country, especially if it is done with minimal habitat disturbance (ie., road collecting, or taking desired rescue animals into captivity.

And Stencorp - you need to get over your parochial resentment of keepers in the eastern states - I moved over here 3 years ago, and the scene here is a breath of fresh air, with reasonably sensible bureaucrats (comparatively!) and a huge range of beautiful animals to select from and work with. I have not one single regret since leaving WA and the oppression herp keepers face in that state.

Jamie.


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## Colin (Feb 28, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Make no mistake though in the future here in W.A, there will be enough consistently bred to end the wild collecting of most species..



Thats great news Dave. I hope that your one of the front runners with these sustainable CB programs for the WA species in the future and wish you every success. I'm not totally against WC collection and feel it has benefitted us all initially, but also feel that the ultimate aim should be to establish sustainable captive breeding programs with these WC founding stock. 

It's interesting to hear the licencing requirements stated by yourself and Jamie. Most of us in the eastern states (myself included) are probably not aware of most of these requiremnets. 

Maybe the aussie reptile keepers need to try and get the government to implement a unified across the board licencing system for all states that are fair to everyone and that also protect our native fauna, habitat destruction etc.

How exactly this could be done I'm not sure but maybe it would be a good new thread?


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 28, 2008)

This thread has turned into a slinging match at times. It's very sad that a discussion can't be had without certain people getting on their horse and slaying a few tall poppies.......

All the best
Den


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## Slateman (Feb 28, 2008)

Den said:


> This thread has turned into a slinging match at times. It's very sad that a discussion can't be had without certain people getting on their horse and slaying a few tall poppies.......
> 
> All the best
> Den



Den, your comment is incorrect. 
I think that this topic is informative and people do post in good manner.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 28, 2008)

Den said:


> This thread has turned into a slinging match at times. It's very sad that a discussion can't be had without certain people getting on their horse and slaying a few tall poppies.......
> 
> All the best
> Den




Now that i read my post i realise i've entered into the 'slashing' group that many enjoy to be in. Peoples personal opinions of others are not my business so appologies to some. The point I was trying to get accross is debates can be handled in a civil manour as proved by both Pilbara Pythons and Doc.

Regards
Den


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## Slateman (Feb 28, 2008)

Den said:


> Now that i read my post i realise i've entered into the 'slashing' group that many enjoy to be in. Peoples personal opinions of others are not my business so appologies to some. The point I was trying to get accross is debates can be handled in a civil manour as proved by both Pilbara Pythons and Doc.
> 
> Regards
> Den



No Problem Den
I possibly misunderstand what you mean by your comment.
I agree that Doc and Pilbara Python did expressed they views well. No need for nastiness.


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## stencorp69 (Feb 28, 2008)

Colin said:


> Exactly. Although it might be a bit expensive for the person with one pair of snakes... If you had several breeding pairs you would quickly recoup that $1000 and still make a considerable profit. How much do the WA snakes sell for in WA?? consideranbly more than over here. If you have the breeding animals and $1000 to spare (and if you have a few animals this would be quite likely) then although its probably overpriced, to not get the farmer's licence is ludicrous. :lol:
> 
> Hiding behind that 'expensive' farmers licence scenario Stencorp is just a cop out for why there hasn't been sustainable captive breeding programs set up in WA to supply the local market. Although there probably is a growing interest in reptile keeping and new people coming into it in WA, I can't see that it would compare to the growing rise of interest in the eastern states. I don't have figures on this and may be wrong but would assume that this would be the case.
> 
> ...


 
I'm guessing from all the smileys that this reply is meant to be a joke or an attempt at humor? If its not then I'm guessing you don't actual breed reptiles, as regardless of the animal being CB or WC from hatchy to breeding age for most pythons is in excess of 2.5 years more likely 4. Given that we've had the system in place for 4 years I'm hoping you can do the maths? It would take some time to get a sustainable CB program going regardless of the parents being CB or WC - so the over night scenario is a bit fanciful - in 20 years we will be in the same position the eastern states is.

On your last paragraph - please read what I posted. With only 5% of your *CB* population you would not be able to breed enough animals to meet the current demand in your state.


Sten


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## ihaveherps (Feb 28, 2008)

Stencorp, since when are all WC animals hatchlings? I would have thought that the majority of the WC animals were sub-adult if not adult specimens? Also seeing as the breeding age in stimsons and womas can easliy be attained at 2.5 yrs, and that is generous, I dont see how having 2nd gen CB animals at this point in time is so far fetched.


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## stencorp69 (Feb 28, 2008)

Not far fetched but let say you got adult WC animals some time during spring 2003? They then bred the following autumn/winter in 2004 with eggs being laid in Oct(ish) 2004, hatching in January 2005. At 2 years old the year will be 2007. They'll breed in the winter of 2007 with the 2nd gen babies being born January this year. So yes its possible but not even with CB breeding programs would you be able to supply demand in WA from nothing to what is required in this time frame. Do the sums it didn't happen in the east this way you guys were taking from the wild left right and centre and you legalised them all by an amnesty. LETS keep it real or at least look at your own (my own) past before pasting this off.

Sten - fingers getting tired of stating the obvious


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## Chimera (Feb 29, 2008)

stencorp69 said:


> So yes its possible but not even with CB breeding programs would you be able to supply demand in WA from nothing to what is required in this time frame. Do the sums it didn't happen in the east this way you guys were taking from the wild left right and centre and you legalised them all by an amnesty. LETS keep it real or at least look at your own (my own) past before pasting this off.
> 
> Sten - fingers getting tired of stating the obvious



Bravo, too hard so why bother. The python breeding industry in the eastern states may not have copped the same obtuse legalities as WA, but there were certainly a few pioneering efforts that got it off the ground. 

Maybe it is the lack of large CB suppliers that is limiting the expansion of herpetoculture in WA, I wonder where we would be in the eastern states if there weren't people who pu t a large effort into expanding the hobby. The NSW license system is a testament to that.

This is not directed at anyone individually, but perhaps it is time that larger keepers and organisations in WA stopped hiding behind the regulations and started using them as best they can.

Or am I stating the obvious


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## Slateman (Feb 29, 2008)

This topic went for long enough and people are starting to score points and argue bit.
I think that all what could be said on the subject was said and if some individuals like to keep argument going, just continue by sending personal messages to each other.

Majority of our members can get the picture from all post posted here by reading back.

Locking the topic.
Thanks for participating.


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