# Frog and snake ID



## Sleazy.P.Martini (Jan 5, 2013)

Hey guys, sorry about the lowsy photos, the snake was sent to me via phone from someone else and I was drunk when I took the one of the frog. 

Anyway the frog was found in Townsville, and the snake found North shore Sydney, Hornsby to be precise. Thanks


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## jedi_339 (Jan 5, 2013)

The Frog looks to me like an ornate burrowing frog _Platyplectrum ornatum_.

Not going to have a guess at the snake Identification though, I can't see enough details.


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## GeckPhotographer (Jan 5, 2013)

Jedi is correct with the frog ID, as he says it would be very had to ID the snake off that photo, there are many many candidates. Any more information about the snake? Pattern etc?


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Jan 5, 2013)

Only info I got was shiny brown near the head, darker as it got further down toward tail, and no red on the sides or belly. Either way I've convinced her to leave them alone(she seen a few lately) and she days she wouldn't dream of killing it so 1 nil to reason so far lol

- - - Updated - - -

If anyone knows any catchers round the area can you PM contact details? Just so she has some options


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 5, 2013)

Options (possibilities) removed - inappropriate given the photo quality. My apologies.

Warn your friend she cannot afford to take any chances. Tell them to dress appropriately in case they accidentally step on one – covered footwear (preferably ankle length boots), thick woolly socks to calf height and loose-leg long pants of heavy material.

Blue


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Jan 5, 2013)

Cheers blue, I already told her to tread carefully, much like terrorism be alert but not alarmed lol. I pointed out most snakes are out at night, when her son is asleep, turns out the several snakes she's seen were out at night. I'm just glad I convinced her snakes are OK, and her and several of her friends have realized killing snakes is a silly idea


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## JasonL (Jan 5, 2013)

Snake looks like a small eyed or swampie, though impossible to say without a closer photo


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## Australis (Jan 5, 2013)

No Stephens in Hornsby.


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## Egernia (Jan 5, 2013)

Assuming that it is a local to Hornsby then it is going to be either a Common Brown, Golden Crowned, or Yellow Faced Whip Snake. Although not a great photo my money is on Common Brown based upon the size in comparison to the gloves and the body shape which is not really inline with a whip snake. The lady is welcome to contact me via our website should she have any further problems with the snake and I will pop around and sort it out for her and then we will all know for sure what it is!


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## jase75 (Jan 6, 2013)

From that pic the snake looks like a Small Eyed. Other option would be a Swampie. 

Sent from my XT925 using Tapatalk 2


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## GeckPhotographer (Jan 6, 2013)

From the picture the snake does not look at all banded. From the description the most likely candidates seem to be Small Eyed or Marsh. It's possible it is an Eastern Brown, but size comparison to gloves and being out at night make me think this a less likely option.


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## eipper (Jan 6, 2013)

To the op 
The frog is Platyplectrum ornatum, the Ornate Burrowing Frog.

The snake is from that photo *Unidentifiable. 

*While I have my thoughts I am not willing to guess the indentity. You either know it or you don't its that simple.

Tell your friend that snakes are commonly occur in all suburbs of Sydney, they are just very effective at remaining hidden. When walking around at night try to wear closed in footwear and use a torch to try to avoid an accidental bite.

cheers
Scott


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## Stuart (Jan 6, 2013)

Ladies and Gents

Scotts post above is a golden example of Snake (or any) Identification. When in doubt or not enough information is provided, don't guess, the consequences can outweigh the realities.


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## reb01 (Jan 6, 2013)

SniperCap said:


> Ladies and Gents
> 
> Scotts post above is a golden example of Snake (or any) Identification. When in doubt or not enough information is provided, don't guess, the consequences can outweigh the realities.


Thats exactly correct..too many ppl jump at conclusions saying it could be this-could be that..Bottom line is it could be ANYTHING..without a decent photo NO-ONE can say for certain what it is...We can only take a stab in the dark


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 6, 2013)

furiousgeorge said:


> Cheers blue, I already told her to tread carefully, much like terrorism be alert but not alarmed lol. I pointed out most snakes are out at night, when her son is asleep, turns out the several snakes she's seen were out at night. I'm just glad I convinced her snakes are OK, and her and several of her friends have realized killing snakes is a silly idea


That’s great. Really good to hear.

Blue


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## Egernia (Jan 6, 2013)

Sure it is great if people can post clear pics that leave no doubt as to what the pic is of but the reality is that is not always possible. If they had a clear pic of what it is then they most likely would not need to come here and ask as Google pics would probably give them an answer. I for one would hate to see an ID thread go unanswered based upon the fact that the photo quality is not good enough! 

Of course no one wants the wrong ID given but as can be seen in this thread no one has suggested a definitive as to what it is but instead a guide to what it could be. To my mind this is valuable information that the OP can then take away and look into further and may even make a positive ID possible. The alternative suggestion that no one provide any information seems to me to be counterproductive and certainly less valuable to an OP than the information that has been made available to them by the answers above.

I understand that in the past some of these threads have generated answers that were way off and just uninformed. With the exception of some of the earlier species suggestions that have now been removed from this thread I think the other suggestions made here are all very reasonable possibilities and I would not be at all surprised if the snake turned out to be one of the species named in this thread.

The location is very specific and to anyone familiar with the removal of snakes in suburbs around Sydney that little bit of info is very valuable in identifying what it is likely or not likely to be. Sometimes individuals with regional knowledge can know things that the 'experts' don't know and I think it would be a loss to the board if their informed opnions were discounted.


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## eipper (Jan 6, 2013)

Egernia,

Ok so by your logic you are saying Pseudonaja. Stephen is suggesting Cryptophis. If the op's pet is bitten by this snake, the I'd depending on if you go with your guess or Stephen's changes the type of av administered. 

There is no shame in being not able to identify something from a poor pic. 
Cheers
scott


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## Egernia (Jan 7, 2013)

Scott I think you are missing my point but in the scenario you pose I don't see how a thread with no replies due to poor photo quality is going to place the OP in a better position than the current thread with educated opinions as to likely possibilities.

The reality is that in a bite situation, be it pet or person, no medical professional is going to take a the word of a lay person and administer anitvenene as per their ID of the snake so I don't see any danger from this thread in that case. If there is no positive ID available i.e. specimen in hand, then a polyvalent is going to be administered until a test shows what it was that caused the bite.

I don't see anyone in the thread suggesting that the OP should go and pick up the snake. I also don't see anyone suggesting a positive ID. I do see some informed opinions each of which are distinct possibles based upon the photo and the location.

As I mentioned earlier I entirely agree with the general consensus that we don't need random suggestions thrown up especially when those suggestions are clearly not the snake in the picture and / or clearly not in the location that the snake has been found. But I don't have a problem with informed opinion as to what the animal in the picture is likely to be provided that some reasoning is provided and to my knowledge that is within the rules of this particular forum.

You are entirely welcome to choose not to express your opinion as to what a particular snake may be if you are not entirely sure what it is, but I believe that other members have an equal right to express their opinions as to what a snake likely may be if they feel confident that they know what it is and if they can provide reasoning for their suggestions.

I placed the word expert in quotes in my earlier post not to mock those who are considered resident experts on this forum but because I am not so sure that any one is an expert about every snake in every situation so apologies if that was misconstrued as being a dig at any one in particular. I believe that there is a lot of expertise on this forum from non-regulars and I think it is a shame if those opinions are overlooked just because those people are not regulars!


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## eipper (Jan 7, 2013)

Egernia,

I deliberately said pets, as for a person a svdk would be administered. The difference in cost for a vial of Polyvalent vs mono is huge. At the end of the the day the call is place with the owner of that pet whether or not a/v is administered. At this point the person who has seen the snake will be making the call. 

I disagree that an educated guess is better than nothing.....at least with nothing you not going to be wrong - you may not help the person but you will not lead them down the wrong path either, all the while _thinking_ they know the answer.

The opinion of everyone on a site is important. It would seem that you and I disagree on this point and that's fine. 

If I may I would like to offer a couple of points to your initial id post
_
Assuming that it is a local to Hornsby then it is going to be either a Common Brown, Golden Crowned, or Yellow Faced Whip Snake. Although not a great photo my money is on Common Brown based upon the size in comparison to the gloves and the body shape which is not really inline with a whip snake._

The body shape of both _Demansia_ and _Pseudonaja_ are more or less identical, these two genera are that closely related that they were thought to be in the same genus for many years. 

Cheers,
Scott


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## Egernia (Jan 7, 2013)

Scott I agree that we are probably just going to have to disagree on this issue. I understand that you like to be able to positively ID a snake in question and I agree that ultimately a positive ID from a photo would be great. We disagree in cases where the photo does not permit a positive ID I personally see no problem with a list of likely suspects being compiled as long as the reasons for those inclusions are given and of course as long as they are reasonable inclusions based upon the information that is available. Once again the very specific piece of information for me from the OP was the specific suburb.



eipper said:


> I deliberately said pets, as for a person a svdk would be administered. The difference in cost for a vial of Polyvalent vs mono is huge. At the end of the the day the call is place with the owner of that pet whether or not a/v is administered. At this point the person who has seen the snake will be making the call.



Perhaps procedures are different in different places around Australia but in my experience the medical professional makes the call as to what a/v is administered so I disagree that your scenario is likely. But lets use your scenario to illustrate my whole point here. 

1. If no ID's are suggested due to a poor quality pic the OP has no info other than what they know i.e. brown coloured snake, so they head off to the vet and state that their dog was bitten by a brown snake (perhaps blisfully unaware that there are a whole range of brown coloured snakes other than a brown snake) which I am sure happens quite a lot but is clearly not ideal. OR

2. If a list of possibles is given but no positive ID possible then the OP heads off to the vet and says my dog has been bitten by a brown coloured snake and here is a list of possibles that it seems it could be.

It is my view that in both cases no monovalent would be given unless the vet has a positive ID but even if you are right I don't see a major advantage over example 1 than example 2 but I can see some advantages in the OP being at least aware that there are a range of possible brown coloured snakes in their area.



eipper said:


> I disagree that an educated guess is better than nothing.....at least with nothing you not going to be wrong - you may not help the person but you will not lead them down the wrong path either, all the while _thinking_ they know the answer.



Scott there are five answers so are you suggesting that the OP is going to choose one over the others. Well I suppose he could but then again I suppose he could decide for himself that your positive ID on another snake is wrong and go with his gut feeling. We can't control what people do with the information provide but we can provide the best information possible in an effort to help them and I believe this is what has been done on this thread and exactly why I raised my concerns with some members disparaging other members for their valid opinions.



eipper said:


> The body shape of both _Demansia_ and _Pseudonaja_ are more or less identical, these two genera are that closely related that they were thought to be in the same genus for many years.



I don't think this should be discussed on the genus level as there is too much possible variation among the species in the relative genus. In relation to the two specific species in question the body shape of an Eastern Brown and Yellow-faced Whip Snake in the Sydney locale are very different. With colouration aside the latter has a much larger head in proportion to neck, much larger eyes, and a longer thinner tail as well as an overall thinner girth along its body. All of those factors are proportional but to the experienced eye the overall body shape of the two species is quite different. The OP's photo is not clear enough to distinguish the above with any certainty but I have an opinion as to what I think as do you. Out of curiosity I would be interested in your opinion on the species in the photo if you want to PM me.


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## eipper (Jan 7, 2013)

I am we'll aware of the Sydney whips and browns I caught plenty of both and for the most part generally body form is close enough to make them tough to spilt from a blurry picture. The eye size in Pseudonaja textilis varies from place to place with some localities the eye size 50% larger in relation to head length. While granted the eyes for psammophis are almost always larger than textilis.

Again we can agree to disagree. Me going back over the same points is not going to change the facts as I see them. 

As my thoughts well I can be fairly sure what its not.....but to quantify why is frankly subjective and too long winded


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 7, 2013)

Both of you gentlemen have valid arguments. The question is, at what point, due to lack of adequate information, do you simply say “cannot be identified”. Do we draw a line in the sand... one likely/definite species only? Or do we allow a number of possibilities? 

I note that you guys have been discussing the relative merits of each side of the coin in the context of circumstances and benefits to the enquirer. Clearly the circumstances surrounding requests for IDs are many and varied. Would a hard and fast ruling povide them all with their potential benefits?

A point to consider. It seems to me where a single species can be identified, several posters confirm that and the obviously incorrect answers are identified as such in the process. However, where the exact identity cannot be ascertained, many incorrect possibilities go unchallenged. How is the final list of possibilities to be honed down?

Blue


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## Bushman (Jan 7, 2013)

Well said Blue. I can likewise see both sides of the argument. Thanks for your contributions gentleman, including 'Egernia' who we don't see often but you put up a good argument. It's been an interesting, though-provoking discussion that has pushed our boundaries in this regard. Sure, we can suggest likely candidates based on locality and narrow it down a bit with the sketchy pic but there's not much to go on really. Although unlikely, there is also the chance of it being an exotic species, which are increasingly being found in cities like Sydney (it could be a juvenile Black Mamba). So it's not wise to play guessing games when dealing with potentially venomous and deadly species. 

The bottom line is that we cannot positively identify that snake from the photo and description provided, so we are just speculating, which is dangerous with snake ID's.
I don't think that there's much more that needs to be said.


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## Egernia (Jan 7, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> A point to consider. It seems to me where a single species can be identified, several posters confirm that and the obviously incorrect answers are identified as such in the process. However, where the exact identity cannot be ascertained, many incorrect possibilities go unchallenged. How is the final list of possibilities to be honed down?



In the case of good photos that enable a positive ID perhaps the mods could make a final post clarifying what the animal is and the reasons why and then close the thread. That way people can look at the first post asking for the ID and refer to the last post giving the ID and reasons why. They can then refer to the posts in between for further info and discussion.

In the case of a thread such as this one where no positive ID is possible I guess the important thing is for each individual who posts a suggestion to clarify why they are making the suggestion. I realise that is a rule of the forum but perhaps mods need to remove posts that dont do this to ensure that if people want their posts to remain they provide the info. That way if someone does post a suggestion that is way off they likely wont be able to clarify why they believe it is a valid suggestion and their post would be removed.

I think I might stay off the ID forum in future as it appears that a lot of improvements have already been made and I would hate to be any part of undoing those. In the past there were quite a lot of random guesses which did no one any good and in that regard I can understand everyones concerns!


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 8, 2013)

I have deliberately held my tongue until now as I was wondering if someone else might mention this. I see the ID forum as performing an instructional role for forum members as well as identifying species for those making enquiries. Producing a list of possibilities, so long clear reasons are given, satisfies alternative function. So does eliminating possible species, giving clear reasons. Interactions between posters to question or valid choices should also occur. The exchange of information is where others can learn.

*Egernia*, 
Your ability to articulate clearly and your extensive field experience and knowledge would clearly be assets to this forum’s users and readers. And for selfish reasons, I would be pleased to see more of your contributions.

Blue


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## Bushman (Jan 8, 2013)

Egernia said:


> In the case of good photos that enable a positive ID perhaps the mods could make a final post clarifying what the animal is and the reasons why and then close the thread. That way people can look at the first post asking for the ID and refer to the last post giving the ID and reasons why. They can then refer to the posts in between for further info and discussion.
> 
> In the case of a thread such as this one where no positive ID is possible I guess the important thing is for each individual who posts a suggestion to clarify why they are making the suggestion. I realise that is a rule of the forum but perhaps mods need to remove posts that dont do this to ensure that if people want their posts to remain they provide the info. That way if someone does post a suggestion that is way off they likely wont be able to clarify why they believe it is a valid suggestion and their post would be removed.
> 
> I think I might stay off the ID forum in future as it appears that a lot of improvements have already been made and I would hate to be any part of undoing those. In the past there were quite a lot of random guesses which did no one any good and in that regard I can understand everyones concerns!


Thanks for your suggestions. I think they're good ideas and worth considering. I'll discuss it with the other mods and admin, as we're open to ideas such as this. 

I agree with Blue that your contributions to this thread are welcome and it's discussions such as this, that despite opposing points of view, enrich this forum.


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