# Exotics in australia



## sam (Jun 3, 2005)

Hey all just wondering about everyones opinions on having exotic species in australia. Seeing that albino reticulated python by son of ash, its so stunning. Do you think we should be able to keep exotic animals, maybe under a special licence? I understand the issues that national parks or the govt. would have about it but look at somewhere like the UK or the U.S. they dont seem to have any problems. Especially when looking at some of those sites like kingsnake, seeing gtps for a few hundred dollars as opposed to here were they are worth more than a car. Do you think it will ever be possible to keeping un-native species in aus???


----------



## Brodie (Jun 3, 2005)

:roll:


----------



## Dicco (Jun 3, 2005)

I'm with Brodie.


----------



## Hickson (Jun 3, 2005)

The short answer is:


No.





The long answer is:





Never.



Hix


----------



## Dicco (Jun 3, 2005)

Ah! Forgot about that old beauty Hix!


----------



## Stevo (Jun 3, 2005)

Never actually thought about it :roll:


----------



## BROWNS (Jun 3, 2005)

I have a few exotic dwarf spitfire albino bufos marinus if you're interested sam...pm me and i might be able to do you a deal for a few het supermegadwarf drop bears i've been breeding for the last 2 years that might interest you as well :wink: 8) :lol:


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

There will always be those who are dead against it, they will all escape and breed and destroy all the native wildlife that man hasn't already destroyed. Then there are those who are for it under the right set of conditions and restrictions, I fall firmly into the second group. 
It is perfectly possible to have exotics here if certain rules are followed.
I know several people in Victoria legally allowed to keep exotics and these have caused no problems, there is always a degree of risk but while we openly allow the keeping of dogs cats and various other species the anti arguments are fairly hollow in my opinion.
I love this kind of debate but unfortunately it tends to degenerate into name calling and it gets quite nasty which is a great shame.  

Exotics are so common in this country that I think it is ineviteable that some form of legalised keeping will happen.


----------



## diamond_python (Jun 3, 2005)

I am with you Boa  JMO


----------



## lutzd (Jun 3, 2005)

I really like the concept of keeping out exotics for two reasons - keeping our own herps pure and keeping out exotic diseases.

However the reality is that there ARE exotics here already illegally. I think legalising and controlling (as suggested by boa) is probably the best answer, providing they are closely monitored and stiff penalties are applied for any abuse of the regs.

Wonder what Jeff thinks about this? Haven't seen him on for a while, but if you're out there lurking, sir, how about an official/semi-official response?


----------



## Liccy (Jun 3, 2005)

im confused...i hate the fact that those idiots brought ova rabbits..and stuff...but i would sell my house to buy one of those albino tiger pythons illegally...then again...id have to sell up to buy one legally!


----------



## Kenshin (Jun 3, 2005)

all i can say on the matter is:
http://www.aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4253&highlight=viper

and i agree.....


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

Don't be confused, these people weren't idiots, it's just that back when most of these animals were introduced little or no thought was given to the possible consequences because those sorts of concerns just didn't exist.
We now live in a much different society and are mostly wiser than our fore fathers. 
It wouldn't be hard to intoroduce a workable system in this country, when they first discussed limited legalisation in Victoria quite a few years ago now one of the conditions was no breeding, sale etc. Now although this seemed a good idea to the law makers all it resulted in was most of the keepers with exotics didn't apply for a permit and carried on breeding and selling. Only a hand full actually came forward and it took literally years in some cases to get a permit with no guarantee when you applied that you would get one, as I said very few put their hands up for that one.
Of course there is a small risk of disease BUT as I keep saying these animals are here now and in big numbers, make them legal and have some sort of control over them rather than the way it is now.
There are species which pose next to no threat to anything in this country, namely land tortoises of most types, chameleons and lots of others. I wouldn't expect or push for a carte blanche approach where everything was available but there must be some middle ground.
JMHO.


----------



## peterescue (Jun 3, 2005)

I love tortoises. 
Cant really see them getting out of hand and running rampant but you never know. 
Come round that bend in the road to be confront with dozens of Aldabras caught in the headlights.


You agree with what...............................?


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

I was thinking that, you agree with what part of that thread ?
There is no way I would consider having venomous snakes legalised, the chances are just to great that someone will get bitten.


----------



## Jonathon (Jun 3, 2005)

Tortoises would have to be my favourite animal... such slow and relaxed animals. Would love to be able to keep them. They're really the only exotic i would want to keep, probably because there are no land tortoises native to Australia. We have lizards, snakes and turtles here so I wouldn't really want any exotics of them.


----------



## SLACkra (Jun 3, 2005)

i have to agree that it is best to keep exotics out(cept tortoises, not like we say they breed like tortoises!) unless a strick nation wide system could be in place. have to have a licence that you have to update maybe twice a year to be on the safe side. hefty fines for people doing the wrong thing. even have it that if the animal dies you have to have proof that it died and you didn't release it(a couple photographs). 

tortoises rock! i really wanted to get a boxturtle their so cool. and they live around virginia and are definatly have no potential to running wild in australia, too dry. 

also personally i question the idea of banning exotics while allowing people to have outdoor cats? i think it should be illegal to have a cat outside. the whole bring em in at night bit isn't enough the still get to prey upon the dayural reptiles. 

my 2 cents

andrew


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

The problem is that it is a little too late to keep them out, there are lots and lots of them here. We are way past that stage, we must find a system to allow the relevant authorities to keep track of what is here.
I couldn't agree more about the cats, I can buy any number of cats and release them into the wild but I can't have an exotic reptile that will be kept in a secure locked cage, it's ludicrous.


----------



## Dicco (Jun 3, 2005)

What the hell?? What do you mean it's too dry in Aus? there arer places where the rainfall is amongst the highest in the world, Australia isn't just a big desert. And there is NO proof thjat tortises could not become a pest, it's highly unlikey, but not proven.


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

Proof that a tortoise couldn't become a pest ?? I can see them now terrorising the neighbourhood


----------



## SLACkra (Jun 3, 2005)

> What the hell?? What do you mean it's too dry in Aus? there arer places where the rainfall is amongst the highest in the world, Australia isn't just a big desert.



i didn't say any of that. i was gerneraly stating that most areas in australia are to dry. though now that i think about it some very wet queensland rainforest might be able to sustain them.



> And there is NO proof thjat tortises could not become a pest, it's highly unlikey, but not proven.



its not like their going to run away mate 8) . i can't remember but i doupt they reproduce/reach sexual maturity that fast

andrew


----------



## AGAMIDAE (Jun 3, 2005)

there is crap loads of exoitic I would love to keep....but for our native animals sake we must keep them out..


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

Keep them out.......but they are already here so keeping them out isn't an option really. Getting rid of those here is even less of an option.


----------



## Guest (Jun 3, 2005)

You have buckleys of getting land tortoises legalized cause jeff hates them and heaps of other things.Most of the pythons and boas,colubrids and lizards are here anyway so its a reptile rights issue and an equality thing for many people which encroachs on their personal freedoms.Others keep their exotic animals why cant we they say with good reason.


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

No-one hates land tortoises, that just isn't normal. 
I totally agree, I can keep cats, dogs, mice, rats, rabbits, ferrets (in most places) llamas, alpacas, goats, sheep, cows, horses, pigs, blah, blah, blah but not a reptile that will be kept in a cage. If it made sense I would agree, it doesn't so I don't.


----------



## AGAMIDAE (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: RE: Exotics in australia*



boa said:


> reptile that will be kept in a cage. .



Yes but not everyone is as resposible as you....


----------



## AGAMIDAE (Jun 3, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

I think it a good thing that we unable to legally keep them...we have planty of herps here to keep us happy....not happy about not being able to keep exotics...then move over there and dont bring them here...yes yes I heard the first time (we all know there here), but its ilegal, its irresponsible and a threat to native Australia. And those that are caugh diserve what they get...


----------



## peterescue (Jun 3, 2005)

AGAMIDAE said:


> there is crap loads of exoitic I would love to keep....but for our native animals sake we must keep them out..



but in the end this is the line in the sand for me.


----------



## Brodie (Jun 3, 2005)

u do know shingle backs fill the same ecological niche in Australia as land tortises do overseas?

WHat if they are more successful than shingles..

Also shack, you ever heard of desert tortoises mate!


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

Desert tortoises are great, so well adapted to their harsh environment.


----------



## Brodie (Jun 3, 2005)

Bloody cute tuckers


----------



## playwell (Jun 3, 2005)

Ohh! man!! :roll: I would love some Boas.

I mean, I would really love some boas. 

Give me give me give me. If it was legal of course. :wink:


----------



## Retic (Jun 3, 2005)

Boas are just the best, not just boa constrictors but Emerald Boas, Rainbow boas, Cooks Tree Boas, I love em all.


----------



## playwell (Jun 3, 2005)

boa said:


> Boas are just the best, not just boa constrictors but Emerald Boas, Rainbow boas, Cooks Tree Boas, I love em all.



100% Agree.


----------



## hugsta (Jun 3, 2005)

Exotics are here and have been for donkeys ages. We need to remove our heads from the sand and deal with what is here, there is customs to deal with stopping more coming into the country, but what about those exotics that have been here for ages. There needs to be policies and laws etc dealing with them and controlling them. While we ignore the fact they are here the black market demand will only get bigger as snakes become more popular as pets.


----------



## Moclobe (Jun 3, 2005)

Heres what can happens when you have introduced snakes.

http://www2.nature.nps.gov/YearInReview/02_B.html

Do we really want this happening in our already fragile wet lands?

Regards David


----------



## hugsta (Jun 3, 2005)

> Heres what can happens when you have introduced snakes.
> 
> http://www2.nature.nps.gov/YearInReview/02_B.html
> 
> ...




The problem is David, that they are already here. There have been several corn snakes found from wildlife rescues over the last few years and there is also an established group of red eared sliders in QLD. This is not good, so whilever we ignore it, it will only get worse.


----------



## peterescue (Jun 3, 2005)

Brodie_W said:


> u do know shingle backs fill the same ecological niche in Australia as land tortises do overseas?
> 
> WHat if they are more successful than shingles..
> 
> Also shack, you ever heard of desert tortoises mate!



You do realise that you just made that up dont you. 
You should do a bit more research into tortoises brodes. 
They may share a similarity in some aspects of ecological niche with aspects of some tortoises but so does a fruitbat.


----------



## Moclobe (Jun 3, 2005)

So just because they are here now we should just say stuffit and lets open the floodgates.

This is the same as saying that just because a few people commit murder we should get rid of the laws against murder and let anybody do it.

I agree that we shouldn't stick out heads in the sand, but enforcing the laws we have is better than letting open slaver on importing exotics. In fact the mere fact that the authorities are having problems inforcing the current law is strong evidences for the fact that the could not control the importing of exotics leading to exactly what has happened in the US.


----------



## SLACkra (Jun 3, 2005)

> So just because they are here now we should just say stuffit and lets open the floodgates.
> 
> This is the same as saying that just because a few people commit murder we should get rid of the laws against murder and let anybody do it.



wise words. though i agree i would rather not risk all the amazing unique animals that inhabit australia. we already have the flamin cain toads.

though personal opinion. why have licences just for reptiles. hell have em for cats too. the licences for the reptiles makes sure they get a good life and that reptiles aren't taken out of the wild while the cats one makes sure people dont let em run loose and kill natives. 

i recomend you read some of the stuff on www.snakeshow.net . he says something along the line as why have dogs, cats, rabbits and ferrets as pets. we should have kangaroos as pets, wallabys, billbys ect. interesting guy and his snake presentation was kick a$$

andrew


----------



## hugsta (Jun 3, 2005)

> So just because they are here now we should just say stuffit and lets open the floodgates.



I never said anything about "opening the floadgates", I just said


> We need to remove our heads from the sand and deal with what is here



NPWS do not have enough staff to enforce the law, not only that, most of those that have exotics are not licenced anyway and have no idea they have an exotic reptile, they just think it is a nice corn snake. These are the people that need to learn the laws not those that already have a reptile licence and know what the laws are. There needs to be better education for people that have no idea that their snake is exotic and illegal, along with this a licencing system.


----------



## Moclobe (Jun 3, 2005)

Couldn't agree more SLACkra I think a licencsing system for all pet would be ideal though maybe not pratical.

Having more native animals as pet would be fantastic. I for one already have dunnarts instead of rats or mice (shouldn't confuse pet food as pets LOL) and there are many other native that make great pets. 

Regards David


----------



## hugsta (Jun 3, 2005)

> This is the same as saying that just because a few people commit murder we should get rid of the laws against murder and let anybody do it.



No really comparable is it??


----------



## Brodie (Jun 4, 2005)

Pete,

Talk to Dr. Bill Herrinton.. the guy who pioneered research on tortises!


----------



## Springherp (Jun 4, 2005)

> i recomend you read some of the stuff on www.snakeshow.net . he says something along the line as why have dogs, cats, rabbits and ferrets as pets. we should have kangaroos as pets, wallabys, billbys ect. interesting guy and his snake presentation was kick a$$



While I agree keeping Aussie natives would be much better than exotic animals, you still have to keep in mind that an introduced animal is one that is introduced into an area where it does not naturally occur. So, say you kept a kangaroo as a pet and lived in an area in Australia where kangaroos do not naturally occur, you have still just introduced an animal which does not belong in that area and may still cause significant ecological harm... I do agree the harm would be significantly less though because the majority of furry Australian animals are herbivorous.
But thats a whole other topic.... :roll: 
cheers


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 4, 2005)

> While I agree keeping Aussie natives would be much better than exotic animals, you still have to keep in mind that an introduced animal is one that is introduced into an area where it does not naturally occur. So, say you kept a kangaroo as a pet and lived in an area in Australia where kangaroos do not naturally occur, you have still just introduced an animal which does not belong in that area and may still cause significant ecological harm... I do agree the harm would be significantly less though because the majority of furry Australian animals are herbivorous.
> But thats a whole other topic....
> cheers



Being herbivorous hardly means the animal won't cause damage. Herbivores can be every bit as harmful as predators. Native animals are less likely to cause harm because they or their close relatives are likely to have had access to most areas on the mainland at some point in the past few thousand years, so if they aren't there now it's probably because they can't live there, rather than that they couldn't get there. Yes, there are exceptions and many of the best examples are probably reptiles, because of their (relatively) low dispersal capabilities.

I hate to agree with Brodie, but he has a very valid point with the tortoises. Everyone seems so sure that they couldn't possibly survive because they are slow and inoffensive, but keep in mind that they manage to make a good living in their natural homes.

The argument of "they can have cats, why can't we have boas" is a lot like saying "They can commit rape, why can't I commit murder?". One wrong doesn't justify another. If we want to complain about the hideous irresponsibility of cat laws, be become hypocrites if we use them as justification of legalising exotic herps.

There is no doubt that legalising exotics would lead to far more being kept. Has anyone noticed how many legally held reptiles escape? Go to a reptile meeting and talk to people or look through the archives on this site and see how many anectodes you get. I really don't see any benefit from legalising exotics. Yes they're here, but what would legalising it acheive? There are many illegally held exotic venomous snakes around, many species of cobras, vipers etc. Are we to legalise them? Everyone seems to say no... why the double standard? If 'getting your head out of the sand' is important, wouldn't it be most important of all for the highly venomous species?

Anyway, the point is moot. The authorities aren't budging and our squabling is falling on deaf ears.


----------



## peterescue (Jun 4, 2005)

Brodie_W said:


> Pete,
> 
> Talk to Dr. Bill Herrinton.. the guy who pioneered research on tortises!


Got a contact or references.
I can find an R Herrington and a Holly Herrington but no Herrinton, theyve done research on gopher tortoises in the US. 
I know what your saying Brodie but you said it as a generalisation so I threw one back at you.
Kiwis and Eastern Bluetongues also occupy a niche that is taken up by tortoises in other parts of the world except..............for all the similarities there are a lot of differnces.


----------



## basketcase (Jun 4, 2005)

-they are here
-something proactive must be done about it
-the way we are going now... its not getting any better

i refuse to keep exotics due to the threat of losing my australian animals and for no other reason. if there wasnt a threat, or if i didnt want to keep aussie herps i'd go absolutely balistic with exotics


----------



## improvius (Jun 4, 2005)

I have to say that as an outsider, your laws seem pretty odd. But then I remember the whole "rabbit thing." We've had some bad citters get loose here (nutria, Asian Swamp Eel, killer bees, kudzu), but I don't think we've had anything quite on the scale of devastation that you have with rabbits and cane toads. You can get just about any snake you want here, and so far it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. I'm not aware of any areas in the US where ball pythons have taken over, even though they are one of the most commonly imported reptiles.

I guess it seems like justifiable paranoia. It's really a shame that you can't keep all of these terrific pets, but I can certainly understand the reasoning and circumstances behind your laws. And believe me, the irony is not lost when I am able to legally keep and breed anthill pythons here.

-Imp


----------



## playwell (Jun 4, 2005)

So........ why are these examples no condisered exotic to the area:

1/ A Veriegata in Sydney

2/ A Mcdowelli in Sydney or NT or Vic

and all the other combinations.

I'm not having a go at anyone, I would just like an opinion or 2


----------



## instar (Jun 4, 2005)

Quarantined , certified healthy and without disease and surgically or otherwise rendered sterile.[or males only?] All expenses paid by the importer. Non venomous sp only. Licensed and records kept.
Importer must first pass exam of qualification to care for and appropriatly house the said sp.
Why not? Bring on the tortises! , afterall, better in my care than dieing in its desert burrow after being poisoned by rednecks with kerosene and the like to flush equally unfortunate rattlesnakes! 

p.s. on reflection, cb only should also apply i think!


----------



## Retic (Jun 4, 2005)

Absolutely but why bother importing anything, there are loads here that could be certified as safe, get them from zoos so they don't just get killed off as soon as they hatch. If someone can explain the sense in doing that I would like to hear it, I know for a fact it happens. 
If we have to import then there are breeders all around the world with the credentials to supply the animals. 
There will always be those against it and always those for it and of course some fence sitters. This doesn't have to be a divisive issue as some would have it become, we can all agree to disagree


----------



## Jonathon (Jun 4, 2005)

There are people in QLD keeping Oblong Turtles. They're found here in the south west of WA. What if they escaped? Why aren't they considered to be exotic?


----------



## Retic (Jun 4, 2005)

People in most States keep exotics, they may not be from overseas but they are no less exotic than any other and the chances of them escaping and breeding is no less (incredibly small).


----------



## longtom (Jun 4, 2005)

oh yeah id have me some carolanie three toed box tortoses from new zealand qwick as if they allowed us to import cost me nothing for the animals couldnt ever see them wiping out natives :lol:


----------



## Hickson (Jun 4, 2005)

Gee whiz, so many arguments.....I don't know where to start.....



Hix


----------



## SLACkra (Jun 4, 2005)

> Quarantined , certified healthy and without disease and surgically or otherwise rendered sterile.[or males only?] All expenses paid by the importer. Non venomous sp only. Licensed and records kept.



now that is realistic. they should make it legale to keep exotics IF they are steralised and its legal (with special permits) to import exotics IF they are sterilised. people shipping em in have to pay for them to get checked out by quarentine vets to make sure they snip snipping was done properly.

that is the most viable possibility to import and keep exotics in aus. however the risk involved even with that is still there.

andrew


----------



## Hickson (Jun 4, 2005)

SLACkra said:


> IF they are sterilised. people shipping em in have to pay for them to get checked out by quarentine vets to make sure they snip snipping was done properly.



Hmmmm........has anyone ever tried to sterilise a snake? Or a lizard? And once sterilised, how would one "make sure the snip snipping was done properly."? By opening them up again and inspecting the vet's handiwork?

I'm not a vet, but even I know that performing that kind of surgery on a hatchling python would be risky to the animal. Perhaps Geckodan, as a vet, can give us a more infoprmed opinion on the whole sterilisation idea.

And before anybody says "you sterilise adults, not hatchies", if there were legal avenues to import then it would be hatchies (or small lizards) that would make up the great bulk of the imports because of the cost of freighting. 


I'm not knocking the idea, SLACkra and Instar, it's just not practical as far as I'm concerned.



Hix


----------



## instar (Jun 4, 2005)

Hence the after thought of males only Hix. Although im sure some folk would envision your male sulcata out in the great Aussie wilderness, humping everything with a shell and creating hybrids! 
Crikey, there goes the 'pure' continent eh. lol


----------



## Guest (Jun 4, 2005)

The australia wide amnestyesulted from pressure to do something about the exotic problem,does anyone know the stats on what was handed in if any? Just would like to see what it achieved thats all.


----------



## kevyn (Jun 4, 2005)

Man if you guys legalize exotics, I'm so moving everything there. I'd make a friggin' killing.


----------



## Retic (Jun 4, 2005)

I don't think it achieved too much to be honest, because breeding and selling was illegal no breeders came forward (why would they? ). I think you will find that it was mostly the people that had the odd snake or two, as far as the exotics go, I seem to remember the results for the native reptiles was better. It certainly wasn't Australia wide though, just NSW I think ?


----------



## Hickson (Jun 5, 2005)

No, the amnesty was Federal, organised by the DEC in Canberra. It involved all states and territories.

Pathetic figures - a total of 38 reptiles handed in, and one tarantula. NSW had 21, Victoria 15, Qld had 2 and the NT only 1.
The tarantula was in Victoria too.



Hix


----------



## Retic (Jun 5, 2005)

Well if that is correct the results were pathetic but predictable really. At least the authorities can say we gave everyone the opportunity to come forward.
Those figures probably represent maybe 1% of the total out there.
The amnesty I thought was being referred to was the one in NSW that enabled people to keep the animals they declared, that one turned up considerably more animals than that purely because the people knew they would still have the animals. Still only the tip of the iceberg though.


----------



## basketcase (Jun 5, 2005)

*Re: RE: Exotics in australia*



boa said:


> Those figures probably represent maybe 1% of the total out there.



i dont think youre even close mate


----------



## Retic (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

You may be right but it was quicker to type 1% than 0.275%


----------



## Kenshin (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

lol i can tell you now there are allot of exotics in perth and no1 would hand them in as calm would make theyre life extreamly difficult for a long time.... regardless of the "amnesty"


----------



## Hickson (Jun 5, 2005)

*Re: RE: Exotics in australia*




boa said:


> Well if that is correct the results were pathetic but predictable really. At least the authorities can say we gave everyone the opportunity to come forward.



That's exactly the point. New legislation was enacted, and so the population was given the opportunity to hand in their exotics. Now, if you're caught, you don't really have a leg to stand on. And with the reverse onus of proof ........ well ....... it's not a good position to be caught in.



> The amnesty I thought was being referred to was the one in NSW that enabled people to keep the animals they declared, that one turned up considerably more animals than that purely because the people knew they would still have the animals. Still only the tip of the iceberg though.



That was when they were introducing the licensing system - the amnesty was so people could register what they had. Exotics went on a special Exotic License. The license said that the holder could not sell or breed the exotics. But many of them went ahead and bred them anyway, then sold the offspring. And acquired more exotics.

That's the problem with bringing in a regulated importation of exotics - all males, like Instar suggested. You will only control what you have brought in. The illegal breeders will still go on doing what they are doing, and it will create a black market for females that will get smuggled in. Telling the sexes apart is difficult, and would allow the smuggler to not worry about authorities visiting their collection. 'Cause they could show them anything and get away with it.

At least now, if you have an exotic, you've broken the law - open and shut case. (Except those with the Exotic License mentioned before).

Furhtermore, in the international arena, it's been shown that when the international moratorium on ivory was relaxed slightly so that Sth Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia could trade in confiscated tusks, the amount of illegal ivory entering the market place jumped significantly. Any kind of legal trade gives the smugglers an advantage. That's why Kenya refuses to take part, and publicly burns millions of dollars worth of confiscated tusks every so often.

And if small amount of a very *STRICTLY* regulated and monitored trade allows people to illegally smuggle something the size of an elephant tusk, how much easier would it be to smuggle reptiles if we had some sort of legal importation?

The USA still imports large shipments of animals as pets each year, and there is an enormous amount of illegal trade involved in it. The same goes for Hong Kong and Singapore. It's thought that the illegal trade in wildlife worldwide, in terms of revenue generated for the smugglers, is only behind the illegal trade in drugs and weapons. Some sources beleive it is bigger than the arms trade, and many drug dealers may be diversifying and dealing in wildlife too.

In case you hadn't guessed, I'm against the idea of importation.



Hix


----------



## Retic (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

I am also against importation, I can't see the need for it when good healthy animals can be obtained from zoos and parks. 

I do know of a couple of people caught with exotics and the slap on the wrist they recieved was hardly a deterent, so the reverse onus of proof you mentioned (proving where you got the animal and didn't smuggle it in) really seems to amount to no deterent at all. I just think we need some sort of system that works as opposed to what we have now that dosen't.


----------



## Hickson (Jun 5, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*



boa said:


> I do know of a couple of people caught with exotics and the slap on the wrist they recieved was hardly a deterent, so the reverse onus of proof you mentioned (proving where you got the animal and didn't smuggle it in) really seems to amount to no deterent at all. I just think we need some sort of system that works as opposed to what we have now that dosen't.



Agreed, it's pointless having heavy fines and jail time as penalties when the judges sentence lightly. We discussed that last year - some guy picked up in Victoria with almost 90 exotic snakes, broke about 10 federal laws and six state laws, was fined only $5,000. We need one judge to impose a heavy fine and/or a few years in jail, and then people will stop and take notice (hopefully other judges).





boa said:


> I am also against importation, I can't see the need for it when good healthy animals can be obtained from zoos and parks.



No they can't. The exotic animals in the zoos and parks are under permanent quarantine surveillance. They cannot be let out of the zoo or park, unless being moved to another zoo or park, or with special consent for things like media promotions etc.

If the zoos and parks were permitted to sell to the public, it would solve any of the current problems. All it will do is allow a very small percentage of people to legally own an exotic. It won't solve the problem of all the illegally-held exotics, and it will allow a small avenue for illegal trading.



Hix


----------



## Retic (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

But why should someone doing something as trivial as owning some exotics be sent to jail when you can walk away from court a free man/women after killing someone whilst driving a car or beating someone sensless after a night on the town ? As long as real criminals aren't punished by our system I can't agree with harsh penalties for keeping illegal reptiles and thankfully our judges seem to agree.


----------



## Hickson (Jun 5, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*



boa said:


> But why should someone doing something as trivial as owning some exotics be sent to jail when you can walk away from court a free man/women after killing someone whilst driving a car or beating someone sensless after a night on the town ?



Because in those instances, the dickheads claim "diminished responsibilty" because they were drunk/high/tired/angry/menopausal etc. That's how they get off. And beating someone sneseless or hitting them with your car is a quick event, not usually thought out.

Owning an illegal animal is a long term event, not spontaneous. Smuggling is a crime by intent. Supporting smuggling (by purchasing smuggled animals, whether you know they are smuggled or not) is criminal by association (similar to the crime of receiving stolen goods) and helps to perpetuate the illegal importations.

Please note: I am not justifying people getting off scott-free when others have died, I'm just saying that the situations are different. And just because someone who commits murder or manslaughter gets off, doesn't mean that anyone who commits a lesser crime should be let off too.

JMO.



Hix


----------



## The Rock (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

Aw, Come on, just let me have some emerald trees. Please can I,go on I promse I wont let any go up the cape. Can I please huh. Naw just kidding, against exotics. But cant wait for the gov to let us export overseas, as our animals are already there and comanding some of the top prices.Once a royalty was impossed the gov and ourselves would reap the benifits instead of overseas breeders. It would have to be stickly regulated thou.
Rob


----------



## bigguy (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

Boa,

Even your revised estimate of .275% would not even be close with just Corn Snakes alone. At a guess, I would say there would be somewhere between 20,000 to 100,000 Corn Snakes alone just in NSW.

A few friends of mine added up exotic species they had personally witnessed in collections around NSW and from memory it was something like 170 different species.


----------



## Nephrurus (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

170 species? argh! I might be able to track down some Dracos after all! hee hee hee
-H


----------



## longtom (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

thats a lot of species that s for sure


----------



## Retic (Jun 5, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

I'm not sure what species would be exported. Most are already overseas including womas, blackheads etc. I suppose some of the less common dragons, geckoes etc but why would overseas buyers bother getting stuff from here at vast expense ? Maybe for some fresh blood but no-one seriously thinks that there isn't new blood going overseas all the time anyway.



The Rock said:


> But cant wait for the gov to let us export overseas, as our animals are already there and comanding some of the top prices.Once a royalty was impossed the gov and ourselves would reap the benifits instead of overseas breeders. It would have to be stickly regulated thou.
> Rob


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

Has any body seen any NZ greens gecko's out there in illegal land ?


----------



## Retic (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

How many would you like ? Any preference, male female ?


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

That is one creature I probably would risk jail for. Oh no what am I thinking. STOP TEMPTING ME


----------



## Retic (Jun 5, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*


I have never seen any but I have seen a few Phelsuma madagascarensis, beeeaaauutiful.


----------



## peterescue (Jun 5, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*



Hix said:


> [Because in those instances, the dickheads claim "diminished responsibilty" because they were drunk/high/tired/angry/menopausal etc. That's how they get off. And beating someone sneseless or hitting them with your car is a quick event, not usually thought out.Hix



Woohoo! looks like i can do it and I will get away with it after all. :lol:


----------



## Hickson (Jun 6, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*



Pilbarapythons said:


> Has any body seen any NZ greens gecko's out there in illegal land ?
> 
> That is one creature I probably would risk jail for. Oh no what am I thinking. STOP TEMPTING ME



Several species in the genus Naultinus - absolutely gorgeous little things. In my opinion, the GTP of the gecko world.









Hix


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

Dear Mr Kenshin there is no exotics in perth we have ways of making people forget :cry: there has never been an escape from stalaag 13. Hi Hitler. :evil:


----------



## JeffHardy (Jun 6, 2005)

> You have buckleys of getting land tortoises legalized cause jeff hates them and heaps of other things.



Hey, fair suck of the sav, Oldfella. I have no personal vendetta and I certainly don't "hate" any reptile - native or exotic - so please don't try laying the blame on me for the the ban on exotics. I'm not getting sucked into arguments for and against this useless debate yet again. I'm sick of the uninformed, ill informed and foolish arguments that some people advocate.

Everyone should know that the whole issue was pretty thoroughly investigated and debated by the conservation and primary industries agencies throughout Australia from 2001 through 2003 - resulting in the decision to confirm the ban on exotics and run the amnesty in 2004. Yes, the ban isn't new - it was just confirmed. Remember that all of the exotics here in private hands were smuggled into the country, are the progeny of animals smuggled into the country or are stolen or the progeny of stolen animals.

Why can't some of you guys and gals simply accept that you have a huge selection of native reptiles to satisfy your selfish needs. Too many people couldn't give a ...... (insect catcher) or a rats .... about the animals or conserving nature or natural ecosystems - you just have to have something different to satisfy your own ego.

Talk about reptile security and "they won't escape". What naive nonsence. Why should it be expected that exotics won't escape when there are literally hundreds of escaped natives picked up in suburbia throughout Australia every year. Just for interest sake, we picked up several exotics - a kingsnake and several corns, an iguana, red-eared sliders - in Sydney last summer. That is on top of the natives like Black-headed, Olive and Water Pythons and carpets of every description, just to mention the pythons.

So don't serve up that poo about "we will keep them secure in cages". Get a life and be satisfied with the huge diversity of reptiles that you can legally keep. By continuing with the ill-conceived arguments for keeping exotics all you are doing is bringing disrepute onto a great hobby.

Cheers,

Jeff


----------



## instar (Jun 6, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

Wow what a stunner! Emerald or green monitors are smashing too, and E. boas, and.....and....
Sigh!


----------



## instar (Jun 6, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

:shock: Holy cow, miss your chill pill this Morning Uncle Jeff? And ya finish that up with " cheers'? LOL 

Hes right but Oldfella, not his fault! 

Still, we all know the laws, we know what we can and cannot have Jeff, alas we live under a democracy, which means, pointless or not, we can all p*ss and moan all we please, and we do, and will no doubt continue to like it or not.
Telling us were selfish, and egotistical because we'd like to keep beautiful sp that are not native to our neighbourhood is also pointless, it may be your opinion ,but many think otherwise. Australia is already well screwed in regard to exotic flora and fauna anyways, and will never be restored, ever! 
We share this world and its wildlife and there is nothing wrong with wanting to own any animal suited to captivity, despite it origins.
Current laws are not your fault or your idea, were aware of that, take it easy eh! :wink:


----------



## Retic (Jun 6, 2005)

That is a great looking gecko, seeing as good looking Kiwi's are Aussies can't we have those ? :lol:


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

You see boa OUCH! thats the uncle jeff we have here,and he was in good mood, pease forgive me massu ! ( and prays for forgiveness and giudance from ranger staycie )


----------



## JeffHardy (Jun 6, 2005)

In reply to my post, Instar said



> Telling us were selfish, and egotistical because we'd like to keep beautiful sp that are not native to our neighbourhood is also pointless, it may be your opinion ,but many think otherwise. Australia is already well screwed in regard to exotic flora and fauna anyways, and will never be restored, ever!



Aren't you? It is as pointless as trying to compare the errors of yesteryear with "freedom" to do as you please in 2005. We should be learning from our forefathers mistakes and not taking risks that may repeat those errors. We have far more knowledge and hindsight to base our decision on.

Who would like to keep lions, tigers, jaguars and other big cats - that can in USA, so why can't we keep them here? Stupid arguments don't help anyone. Just because animals, reptile or otherwise, might be attractive in some way doesn't justify open slather to keep them as pets. My post was simply to advocate that we should be satisfied with the huge diversity of animals that can legally be kept. Sure, enjoy the beauty of animals that you can't keep, but you don't have to salivate over them or have your hand in your pocket.

Jeff


----------



## Retic (Jun 6, 2005)

I agree Instar, I must admit I don't like being called selfish and egotistical (well alright I may be a little egostistical). I love most reptiles and my favourites are boas, sorry but that's just the way it is. They are illegal so I wont have any but that shouldn't stop me wanting them or even hoping that one day our restrictive laws will change.
Jeff has his views which no doubt are shared by some and others have their views that are obviously shared by many.


----------



## salebrosus (Jun 6, 2005)

I would certainly like to have an Iguana or something like that but i certainly do see the risks of having them, i don't think it will ever be legalised. Go the Aussies.

Simone.


----------



## instar (Jun 6, 2005)

> Aren't you? It is as pointless as trying to compare the errors of yesteryear with "freedom" to do as you please in 2005



NO! And I never said that either! If the eco saviours want to clean up Australia, start with cats, dogs, most birds, fish, cattle, sheep etc etc etc, get the point! There isnt much to conserve left!
Thats not to say, deliberatly make it worse, but its the ecosaviours who have there hands in their pockets imo.
If you dont like folk salivating over exotics, you might be in the wrong job.
Just because fish are attractive dont justify open slather to keep them as pets either, or birds, yet thats how it is ! More likely fish will be a problem than an exotic lizard etc imo.
And exotic flora dont rate a mention yet take a look see at any garden centre, what will you find?
Thats what irks us Jeff! :wink:


----------



## SLACkra (Jun 6, 2005)

o second that. in reality we shouldn't be allowed exotic birds. i have personally caught a alexandrine parakeet, a large parot from the middle east and india area! this big boy was living wild, but i caught him(really impressed my parents that i was able to catch him). there are also anouther pair(male, female) living wild in the area. and acording to my horticulture teacher(who lives near one of there nest holes) they have succesfuly breed! i myself have lost an indian ringneck who was left outside in his cage by my mom, with the washing clips not on properly(excape artist, i miss piper he was a fun bird, he loved cheese!) 

andrew


----------



## JeffHardy (Jun 6, 2005)

:roll: 

LMAO. The truth hurts sometimes doesn't it? :lol:


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

So the herp community is selfish and other communitities are not jeff.like the bird keepers! LOL Jaguars and lions LOL Its not my fault jeff that the amnesty achieved jack s... ,thats the bit you didnt like isnt it.People keep birds,fish and reptiles,cats and dogs both native and exotic thats just the fact of the matter in our society,so if you pass legislation on keeping exotic fish and cats,birds and what not it wont work. Wake up jeff!


----------



## JeffHardy (Jun 6, 2005)

I said I wouldn' debate this issue again. :lol: 

Please read what I wrote in context. I didn't say the "herp community" I was clearly referring to individuals. Comparisons with cats, dogs, sheep etc and even exotic birds is just pure stupidity and are irrelevant to the discussion. We are stuck with all those animals, we don't need to add to the problems for our unique continent and its unique fauna.


----------



## SLACkra (Jun 6, 2005)

personally i think dogs have done mostly nothing to hurt the fauna. especialy my dog, who runs away from my love bird(who stands 10cm tall!) and wouldn't hurt a fly. however there are dogs who go around killing things. i think cats are a worse issue than dogs and the cat issue can be solved very easily, cats illegal to have outside except in outdoor enclosures. we are definatly stuck with sheep! 

the main problem with any exotics is that its effect on australias extremely unique ecosystem can be drastic! even thousands of years ago when dingos were introduced they got the tassie tiger and tassie devil extinct on the main land. 

my 2 cents


----------



## instar (Jun 6, 2005)

How bout the fish / plants we still import Jeff, id say anything we import is relevant to what your saying about eco preservation. One law that for that, one law for this? The ban will not conserve our ecosystem while every other non native animal and plant continues spread through australia, upstaging and chocking off natives and irreversably altering both habitat and food chain (its already that way) damage is done, no closing the gate now after the horse has bolted will undo it, stop it, or preserve it in any meaningful way. just my op. 
we may have to accept the ban, but we dont have to like it or agree with it. 
Not to mention that we do more damage to our precious and unique flora and fauna, logging, mining, building, polluting, than any exotic can now do, or ever did!


----------



## basketcase (Jun 6, 2005)

i agree with every last thing you have said jeff... except for this



JeffHardy said:


> We are stuck with all those (cats,dogs, sheep) animals...



we're also stuck with exotic reptiles and amphibians now, every season there are more and more and they will never be under control if things keep going the way they are


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

Ha Ha Ha those bird keepers are pushovers hey jeff :lol: No wonder i cant keep up with the exotic birds in australia theres just such a big selection available.This is corn snake from kingsnake and as jeff verifys with escapee stats there is alott of them here in different parts of ozz in collections.They would be pest if they became established in the wild but they are here anyway and we need some regulation possibly so we know whats out there.


----------



## Hickson (Jun 6, 2005)

instar said:


> If the eco saviours want to clean up Australia, start with cats, dogs, most birds, fish, cattle, sheep etc etc etc, get the point! There isnt much to conserve left!



Maybe not out your way, Instar, but there are plenty of environments and habitats that have not been badly effected, or are repairable. To say "There isn't much to conserve left!" is just plain ignorant, and I know you aren't ignorant, mate.

Just because we already have problems caused by other introduced exotics does not justify adding to the problems with reptiles. In fact, we should be proud (and promoting) the fact that we don't keep exotics, and our hobby is not a threat to native wildlife or environments.

And Jeff, stop beating about the bush - tell 'em how you really feel!
:lol: 


Hix


----------



## instar (Jun 6, 2005)

Thing that tickles me most really is than human development destroys more of the natural world than anything else. whole ecosystems are 'bought' and dissappear under suburbs and roads and resorts everyday, you cant ban the spread of greedy humanity, the problem is immense, absolutly immeasurable. 
So you cant deal with the real problem, cause and effect, so just target a few softspots that will make sense to those who dont bother lookin at the big picture and it will look as if your doing something and keep the votes comin in. 
Meanwhile the wheels of multi $$ bil industry keep churning on their unceasing journey towards a concrete globe. 
Bulldoze, mine, logout an entire forest the size of vic and create human habitat, your awarded a nobel for humanitarianism, want to import a chamelian your a selfish, egotistical, ecoterrorist B*****D! 
Go figure! 



> Please read what I wrote in context. I didn't say the "herp community" I was clearly referring to individuals.


sure Jeff? 


> Why can't some of you guys and gals simply accept that you have a huge selection of native reptiles to satisfy your selfish needs. Too many people couldn't give a ...... (insect catcher) or a rats .... about the animals or conserving nature or natural ecosystems - you just have to have something different to satisfy your own ego


Sounds like the herp community to me mate. :wink: 



> Talk about reptile security and "they won't escape". What naive nonsence. Why should it be expected that exotics won't escape when there are literally hundreds of escaped natives picked up in suburbia throughout Australia every year


Couldnt that said about zoo's too? escape or theft and you have the same 'risks' no? 



> To say "There isn't much to conserve left!" is just plain ignorant, and I know you aren't ignorant, mate.



Aw shucks! yeah ok that was blanket statement that dint do me justice, but you know what I meant. sure theres a few national parks, but for how long, eventually even they will be gone under concrete, or shrunken to tiny allotments sadly. I never said go out and plant a gravid exotic where ever ya go, just that stopping the little man keeping an exotic at home is a bandaid at best. :wink:


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 6, 2005)

For a slight twist on this discussion it is my understanding that in Queensland it is technically prohibited to import any reptile in to that state that is not naturally found there. This is a breach of import laws that are supposed to be controllked by the Department of Primary industries. It seem lucky for us I guess that the DEH are ether unaware of this or don't really care.


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

So QNPWS have changed name too,vic is worst for name changes and uncle jeffreys department changed into agriculture,well they reckon diversity is the spice of life. Good to see the greening of jeff and his merry band of letter lickers  but theres a drought  Pilbara is that why there was trouble getting the gtps into Qld? Like cause they had png as well as ozz background.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 6, 2005)

The first gtp that came from urs to Rock was imported to an exotic licence which Rock holds. However all the others to my knowledge were imported on standard licences. You will probably find that the DPI have no knowledge of what, when, where, and to who was imported. Rock only became aware of the DPI rules by contacting them about the import of that first GTP. I first struck trouble with the DPI when I wanted to collect what I then believed to be a new species of elapid in the gulf country. I was told by the DEH that they could not process the application until I had the relevant clearance from the DPI first. This is no easy feat as it has to be proven to a committee in Brisbane that it is ethically sound.The committee is made up of members from all sorts of groups and only meet rarely. Considering I was only wanting to send this specimen to the Queensland mueseum they can bend over and jam it up their exhaust as I my time is more important.


----------



## Menagerie (Jun 6, 2005)

geez boys, it would be lovely if you could have a sensible adult discussion without resorting to some of the juvenile comments which have been made.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 6, 2005)

NAH :lol:


----------



## beknluke (Jun 6, 2005)

I haven't personally SEEN a whole heap of collections incl exotics - but I was offered some Veiled Chameleons and a few other sorts, along with an iguana if I was interested.
In fact, the guy even offered if we wanted to come across and 'play' with some to see if we liked them!!
He had over 600 Chameleon eggs.
I don't think that HE is going to be stopping any time soon...


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

:evil: managerie i take exception to th infantile comments stuff, and jeffrey heres a reall ranger that drove an exotic horse hard,wheres that masked man gone? :?


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

Read your post pilbara.mate i didnt realize it was so complicated it deters a lot of people from being honest when its made artificially hard to do the right thing.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 6, 2005)

If you saw the DPI application you would absolutely be astounded. It is more applicable to live stock, cattle, chooks etc . They fully admit that it doesn't suit native wild life and it seems to me that it should be totally handled by the DEH.


----------



## Retic (Jun 6, 2005)

I wonder how much paperwork there is when a farmer wants to cut 100 trees down ? Or should I say when 100 trees fall down in a storm one night. 
Money, development and 'progress' are all that matter nowadays, if anyone thinks otherwise they are kidding themselves.


----------



## Hickson (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: RE: Exotics in australia*



instar said:



> > Talk about reptile security and "they won't escape". What naive nonsence. Why should it be expected that exotics won't escape when there are literally hundreds of escaped natives picked up in suburbia throughout Australia every year
> 
> 
> 
> Couldnt that said about zoo's too? escape or theft and you have the same 'risks' no?



Inny,

Firstly, Zoos that hold exotics are, for the most, under Federal jurisdiction and have nothing to do with Jeff or the State authorities. And there are a hell of a lot more regulations, licences and permits they have to have/comply with than any private individual. As a result, Zoo enclosures tend to be better built and more secure than what you have at home.

Secondly, most of these places have 24 hour security guards, not working for a security company, but employed by the facility themselves. 

So to answer your question - do zoos pose the same risks? Yes, the same risks, but the risks are minimal compared to your average home. 



Hix


----------



## junglemad (Jun 6, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more corn snakes and red-eared sliders in the western suburbs of sydney than morelia or chelodina.


----------



## instar (Jun 6, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Exotics in australia*

LOl fair call Hix, I was waitin for our inhouse zoo coniseur to pop up on that one!  
Gonna have to tell the boys, to unpack the black balaclavas, bank would be easier! :lol:


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

Hix of course zoos and various wildlife parks that hold exotics have good relatively escape proof cages etc etc. Plenty go missing through various means,and not rarely either,thats how most of the illegal exotics in circulation and some of the legal ones came about.You could write a book on the subject Raymond Hoser wrote two.


----------



## peterescue (Jun 6, 2005)

I have been told this on numerous occasions.
"A lot of the exotics in Sydney came from the zoo. They were imported legally(some loophole) through the zoo and then sold on."
Perhaps some of the oldtimers could illuminate us further as I didnt live in Sydney in those days.


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

Paperwork would be one way peter,like a boa has young and some get written down and some dont :wink: :wink: Well ime sure you have heard the abysmal gtp goings on etc Never realised there was a big problem until i moved to sydney and started to get offered all these corns,kings and boa constrictors never did get offered sliders.


----------



## bwana (Jun 6, 2005)

Peter,
One classic way it was done is this; If "they' wanted a different species or colour morph of corn or whatever they used to have it mailed over by a contact who uses a false name and false return address. 
Then they would 'tip off" the authorities. As the zoo recieves any illegal imports the keepers end up with it anyway and gain some "brownie points" as well!
When the wanted species have bred the keepers only declare 5 eggs or 10 young to their bosses and take the rest of the eggs or neonates home.
Eggs or progeny which were already held though legal importation were also treated the same
When the amnesty was on in NSW ppl some people declare whole collections in false names and as soon as they aquired the reptiles which they had declared, simply transfered the animals to their own licence or sold them.


----------



## Retic (Jun 6, 2005)

I can't believe this sort of thing goes on


----------



## peterescue (Jun 6, 2005)

Sitting down with some of the oldtimers you dont know whether to believe them or not then they add a detail that you know is true and a name so you mention it to the name and they say, Oh yeah, I remember that. 
Its like 50% truth and 50% BS but the BS starts turning out to be true.
Still its fun.


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2005)

Well you summed it up well Bwana,HA HA the boa had 7 young and the other 2 walk out with the keeper after work,papershufflers. :lol: No snake has ever escaped from stalaag 13 Hix,cracks me up mate


----------



## bwana (Jun 6, 2005)

Yeh,
Just like how Bob buckley's greens supposedly all died.
what a load of rubbish. 
You could buy red eared sliders, corn snakes, tarantulas, chameleons ect., with ease.
it's the old story it's not what you know but who .........
it's not restricted to any one zoo or wildlife park .
even up in nth qld there are people who keep red-tailed boa's, Sanzinia's from madagascar and some awesome venomous species as well!


----------



## Hickson (Jun 6, 2005)

oldfella said:


> Well you summed it up well Bwana,HA HA the boa had 7 young and the other 2 walk out with the keeper after work,papershufflers. :lol: No snake has ever escaped from stalaag 13 Hix,cracks me up mate



Yeah, it's interesting how everyone says 'they heard stories', or 'a good mate told me this is how it was done'.

Now, I can't speak for any other zoo or fauna park, but seeing as we're talking about Sydney, I might as well have my 2cents worth.

I worked at Taronga, and before I was a paid employee, I was a volunteer. I've been affiliated with Taronga (in one capacity or another)since the late 70's. I've never heard any of these stories from zoo staff, but I have heard absolute bullshit from people who don't know what they're talking about. 

They state - with all the authority of someone with first-hand knowledge - absolute crap about people and events, often that I'd been involved with.
The reptile dept have always copped more than their fair share of the criticism, and I've never worked out why. But everyone was so concerned with slandering the reptile dept/keepers with things that didn't happen, they missed all the real stories that happened elsewhere in the zoo. Probably just as well.

If you're gonna knock my friends - go right ahead. But be prepared to name names - in a PM if you want. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.



oldfella said:


> thats how most of the illegal exotics in circulation and some of the legal ones came about.You could write a book on the subject Raymond Hoser wrote two.



You've got to be kidding! Personally, I wouldn't line the bottom of my snake boxes with anything he wrote. That's filling up the box with a different sort of crap.

:evil: 

Hix


----------



## bwana (Jun 7, 2005)

*Exotic's in Australia.*

Hix 
you say you have been affiliated with TZ since the 70's and have never heard such a thing. Do you have a hearing impairment! (joke)
I personally (not told, or heard) know of 3 or 4 past keepers who did these things. No bullshit! Most of them still work in the industry. One in a ranger in QLD. (ring any bells).
I won't name names as I don't have anything against them. 
It is a lot easier to take banded iguana eggs home from work than smuggle them from fiji.
I hope things have changed since peter took over the show.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 7, 2005)

*RE: Exotic*

I think I'm going to add this thread to my favourite short cuts.
The next time I have trouble sleeping, I can just re-read these 9 pages and I should be out like a light in no time.


----------



## instar (Jun 7, 2005)

*RE: Exotic*

A few of your own responses ought to work just as well Dave!


----------



## Hickson (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: Exotic's in Australia.*



bwana said:


> Hix
> you say you have been affiliated with TZ since the 70's and have never heard such a thing. Do you have a hearing impairment! (joke)


Yeah, I've heard those things, but never from zoo staff.

The ranger in Qld? Yeah, I know him. I actually know his ex-wife much better. 

My last post was made last night when I was a little pissed off at some of the crap floating around. And I've been listening to similar crap for years.

Truth is, there were some people that have behaved .... ummm..... improperly is probably the best word .... in the past, but in their private lives, not necessarily through the zoo. If I was busted tomorrow with a breeding group of Corn Snakes or Boas, or _Naultinus_ geckos, the rumours would be along the lines "he got them when he worked at the zoo", and then they would just get more far-fetched - "I hear he used to keep Eyelash Vipers, which he took home as eggs, but they escaped and are occassionally seen around Balmoral Beach ...." etc.



> I hope things have changed since Peter took over the show.



Peter is a good friend and tolerates zoo management better than many. I for one, think that Serpentaria is better run since his arrival.



Hix


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 7, 2005)

*RE: Re: Exotic*

Hey Hix
Bwana speaks the truth about this matter whether or not you chose to beleive it. I have seen first hand a very small sample of some of the stolen Taronga creatures my self and know one of the persons that Bwana knows. To choose not to name the culprits by Bwana is not cowardly it is probably common sense. But to add fuel to the fire and because I think one of these guys is an absolute jerk heres a hint MM.


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2005)

You go on Hix :arrow: Fanaticly,you must be right ,your so sure of your self. :lol:


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 7, 2005)

I remember when GTP was offered on the black-market for $1000 a piece at the same time Buckley?s were illegally dying in mass numbers at Taronga. I asked a Taronga reptile section employee on the stand in Wollongong court in 1991 about the GTPs held at Taronga. He testified that 27 GTPs out of 33 had died. Well done Taronga what a great job you did, accept I don't believe it for one minute regardless of who signed them off as dead. I was told at the time that the GTPs for sale were indeed stolen from Buckley?s Greens held at Taronga.Who am I to say for sure if it was really true or not ?.Even though I was told this, I did not personally witness this happening but you can?t really blame people for believing what looks likes the obvious?


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 7, 2005)

Gee I love that brown coloured stick of mine :lol:


----------



## indicus (Jun 7, 2005)

:lol: Can see nothing's changed around here while i've been away.........
One comment - 'legalized criminals'......


----------



## NoOne (Jun 7, 2005)

MM hey Pilbara, i might have to agree with you there, if it's the MM i'm thinking of he had his hand in a bit of eveything there.


----------



## peterescue (Jun 7, 2005)

I can only think of one MM. Well I can think of lots more but ones a rapper then there is the mouse and another is a dead sex symbol fim star. Was it her.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 7, 2005)

Actually now that I think about it there were two people working there that had those initials so I was probably a bit reckless saying it. So just to clarify things I shall say this, I have know knowledge that Mathew Milgate was involved in anything ilegal.


----------



## basketcase (Jun 7, 2005)

someone should delete this, right now


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jun 7, 2005)

Why?


----------



## bwana (Jun 7, 2005)

There were two mm's there at the same time.
Hix just wondering as to what section you are in.
I have a feeling it's not the reptile section.
just curious how close to the action you really were!


----------



## basketcase (Jun 7, 2005)

its gone way off the topic and ppl, even those in the public eye and especially those who arent are entitled to privacy


----------



## NoOne (Jun 7, 2005)

That wasn't the MM i was thinking of pilbara. :lol:


----------



## indicus (Jun 7, 2005)

It's of little concern who MM is...Some of us know who your refering to; however it goes for all parks.....If your a private your in the crap;.....if you work for a zoo your protected..... just the way it is...


----------



## Hickson (Jun 7, 2005)

bwana said:


> There were two mm's there at the same time.
> Hix just wondering as to what section you are in.
> I have a feeling it's not the reptile section.
> just curious how close to the action you really were!



I worked in the reptile section for a year as a volunteer keeper, after working in Birds and Discovery Park (a year in each). During my tenure as a paid employee I worked in Visitor Services, Australian Mammals, the African Division and a month in Tourism. But I always kept in close contact with the guys (and occasional girls) up in the Reptile House/Serpentaria. Oh yeah - I worked with both MM's, sometimes on the same day! But I haven't worked with the current MM (although I'm assured from an excellent source that he's a great bloke).

And now, it's time for me to look like a dick.

Over the last 20 years, as I've aslready stated, I've listened to alot of garbage from idiots that don't know what they're talking about. And it's usually not directed at one individual, but tarring all the keepers with the same brush. I usually go off at these people and shut them up because they are just spreading crap.

And last night I read similar comments, and just went into autopilot and gave an argued response. I should have gone to bed.

People on this site are more knowledgable than the knobs I usually hear this stuff from. I should have considered this. 

But the arguments have now started along the lines of 'certain persons'. Which is probably what I should have said last night - only one or two bad apples over the last few years. Instead I got carried away, and I admit that was a mistake. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

I just need to addresstwo things briefly: the allegation someone in the 70s took home Banded iguana eggs - Banded iguanas didn't arrive at the zoo until the eighties, and no-one knows any rumours along those lines. 

Secondly, I know about the GTPs, and I saw them when they were at the zoo (although I didn't know who they belonged to). I was told later that many of them died, and that is what I believe to this day.

There were suggestions of mass appropriation by an individual, but I believe those allegations were made by someone who makes a living publishing books full of similar allegations. If anyone chooses to believe that, then that's your choice. Enough said.

And if I've shown the uninitiated that there is another side to the story, then I hope I've done some good.



Hix

PS: Oldfella: I think it's obvious that I'm the fanatic, but I think last night I also acted a little foolishly.


----------



## expansa1 (Jun 7, 2005)

I can't believe people make up this crap or worse, listen to and believe other's who have made up this crap. These sensationalists should be pulled into line for these type of allegations which are at best wild accusations and heresay. People take each other to court over this sort of crap. 
Great group we have here! I hope all you newcomers are watching carefully and drop out before you too turn into the sort of people who write this s..t. 
Outsiders look at this sort of stuff and form opinions on all of us (reptile keepers) as a whole.
This is the reason why I don't have anything to do with AustralianHerps(yahoo group) any more. Please don't lower the standards of this site like so many in the past. I'm sure everyone has or has had a skeleton in the closet at some time in their life but no one has the right to make it public, especially if it is unproven heresay.

Expansa1


----------



## Menagerie (Jun 7, 2005)

lovely expansa


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2005)

I was born a fanatic Hix and used to watch Bonanza on tv as did bin laden its good to feel like ''one of the boys''.


----------



## Retic (Jun 7, 2005)

Good advice expansa, can we get back to why we can't have exotics please ?


----------



## stencorp69 (Jun 7, 2005)

> Good advice expansa, can we get back to why we can't have exotics please




Yep OK Boa - We'd love to be able to keep exotics over here in WA - Exotics like Diamond Pythons, Jungle Pythons, MD Pythons etc You guys should stop your [email protected]#ching and complaining reflect on how bad your western cousins have got it :?


----------



## Retic (Jun 7, 2005)

Yeah but we don't care how bad you have got it


----------



## stencorp69 (Jun 7, 2005)

> Yeah but we don't care how bad you have got it



Mongrel :mrgreen:


----------



## toxinologist (Jun 7, 2005)

Personally I think it's high time that the NSW authorities took off their blinkers and started testing the DNA of TZ animals and comparing them to the DNA of a certain MM's exotic collections (both the ummm "public" and "private" ones).

Makes a bit of a mockery to have him pulling the wool over their eyes on the one hand while some poor idiot who picks up a baby corn snake (or whatever...) from a mate gets dragged through the Courts. 

The truth is that what Bwana and PP have said about this matter is true, and even the person concerned didn't make a particular secret of it ... a good number of people involved at TZ as keepers and as administrators know it too, even if they don't sing it too the world ... which could prove embarrassing I guess for some.

Hix there's nothing wrong with defending TZ and our colleagues, but the reality is that the place has been a freeway along which exotics have travelled into the general community for many years. MM isn't the only one, and certainly won't be the last.

Cheers


Dave


----------



## dobermanmick (Jun 7, 2005)

I am happy just to have my Aussie reptiles .
Sure i love to see the exotics but in reality I probably will be lucky to ever be able to say i have had every aussie reptile  so why add more to the list


----------



## Retic (Jun 7, 2005)

Because they are beeaauutiful


----------



## Nome (Jun 7, 2005)

blah blah blah.....some people for it, some against, it aint gonna happen, so this is a waste of time.

Just be happy with what you got.

The sh*t fight it turned into was more interesting. :lol:


----------



## instar (Jun 8, 2005)

Psst Nome, wanna buy a Yank T. blondi ?? :twisted: :lol:


----------



## Greebo (Jun 8, 2005)

Forget exotics...when are they going to legalise cross-breeding? Think of all the possible hybrids we could make by interbreeding intergrades. The yanks are already doing it, so why fight it?
It's the future of herping, get on board or be left behind.


----------



## peterescue (Jun 8, 2005)

Are they called interg.................................


----------



## Retic (Jun 8, 2005)

Absolutely right Greebo, couldn't agree more, bring it on.
Instar, do you mean Theraphosa leblondi ? I'll have 6 please .


----------

