# HELP.... My Gravid Jag Escaped



## longqi (Apr 30, 2011)

Actually it didnt because I dont own any
I think they can be quite beautiful but my snakes get used in demonstrations and a twitch might mean many different things so I have avoided using them

But what will be the aftermath when this happens??
Imagine if a gravid jungle Jag escaped in Far North Qld
Or a diamond Jag in the Mid North coast of NSW

In the USA they are virtually giving up and simply saying now 'All jags have problems to one extent or another'
England and Europe are more optimistic that eventually it may weaken

Here in Australia some breeders are telling customers 'Yes This one is showing signs of problems" 
Which is really good but the snake still gets purchased because it is gorgeous

So we can make an educated guess that one day that 'Help My Jag Escaped" will be posted on here because every other type of snake has escaped at one time or another

I am no geneticist or zoologist or anything else like that
So all I can do is guess
If this gene keeps appearing no matter what other morelia it breeds with it follows that once into the wild stock it could mean the gradual extinction of all native morelia

The reason I say this is a very simple one
On every site that discusses Jags the main time they show the neuro problems is when getting ready to feed or when excited/stressed
How could a wild snake successfully hunt if it trembles and shakes just as it tries to ambush something??
Or does that mean that Jags couldnt successfully exist in the wild here so no need to worry?

We are in a very different position to anywhere else
If 1000 jags escaped in the USA or Europe who cares
They can zero effect on their native morelias because they have none
Here it might be a very different story

Have a think about this and if you answer try not to get into a Jag bashing or supporting role without giving at least a slightly logical answer

Any experts who can shoot big holes in this theory are more than welcome to do so
It would let me relax a bit instead of thinking worst scenario


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Apr 30, 2011)

I am not going to get involved with this discussion again. There are certain evolutionary processes involved in a situation like this that zoologists and geneticists would be well aware of. I have taken the liberty to find some information on the Internet that would enlighten the majority of you about what exactly happens to a wild population if new alleles are introduced to it. You can read the below to familiarise yourselves with some of the correct terminology that zoologist and geneticists use. I would be very surprised to see if anybody posting in this thread actually took the time to read it. Here is the link to the webpage 

Population Genetics - Biology Encyclopedia - body, examples, human, process, different, chromosomes, DNA, blood

And a few more links:

Basics of population genetics
Introduction to Evolutionary Biology


The field of population genetics examines the amount of genetic variation within populations and the processes that influence this variation. A population is defined as a group of interbreeding individuals that exist together at the same time. Genetic variation refers to the degree of difference found among individuals, for instance in height, coat color, or other less observable traits. The particular set of genes carried by an individual is known as his or her genotype, while all the genes in a population together comprise the "gene pool."

Foundations

The foundation for population genetics was laid in 1908, when Godfrey Hardy and Wilhelm Weinberg independently published what is now known as the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. The "equilibrium" is a simple prediction of genotype frequencies in any given generation, and the observation that the genotype frequencies are expected to remain constant from generation to generation as long as several simple assumptions are met. This description of stasis provides a counterpoint to studies of how populations change over time.

The 1920s and 1930s witnessed the real development of population genetics, with important contributions by Ronald Fisher, Sewall Wright, and John B. S. Haldane. They, with many others, clearly established the basic processes which caused populations to change over time: selection, genetic drift, migration, and mutation. The change in the genetic makeup of a population over time, usually measured in terms of allele frequencies, is equivalent to evolutionary change. For this reason, population genetics provides the groundwork for scientists' understanding of evolution, in particular microevolution, or changes within one or several populations over a limited time span.

The questions addressed by population genetics are quite varied, but many fall within several broad categories. How much genetic variation is found in populations, and what processes govern this? How will a population change over time, and can a stable endpoint be determined? How much and why do populations of the same species differ? The answer is always cast in terms of selection, drift, mutation, migration, and the complex interplay among them. Of the four, selection and genetic drift are usually given credit as the major forces.

Selection

Simply put, selection occurs when some genotypes in the population are on average more successful in reproduction. These genotypes may survive better, produce more offspring, or be more successful in attracting mates; the alleles responsible for these traits are then passed on to offspring. There is broad theoretical consensus and abundant empirical data to suggest that selection can change populations radically and quickly. If one genetic variant, or allele, increases survivorship or fertility, selection will increase the frequency of the favored allele, and concurrently eliminate other alleles. This type of selection, called directional selection, decreases the amount of genetic variation in populations.

Alternatively, an individual carrying two different alleles for the same gene (a heterozygote) may have advantages, as exemplified by the well-known example of the sickle-cell allele in Africa, in which heterozygotes are more resistant to malaria. In this case, called overdominant selection, genetic variation is preserved in the population. Although a number of similar examples are known, directional selection is much more common than overdominant selection; this implies that the common action of selection is to decrease genetic variation within populations. It is equally clear that if different (initally similar) populations occupy different habitats, selection can create differences among populations by favoring different alleles in different areas.

Genetic Drift

Often overlooked by the layperson, genetic drift is given a place of importance in population genetics. While some analyses of genetic drift quickly become complicated, the basic process of drift is simple and involves random


Cheetahs, which have very little genetic variation, are presumed to have gone through several genetic bottlenecks.
changes in allele frequency. In sexual species, the frequency of alleles contained in the progeny may not perfectly match the frequency of the alleles contained in the parents. As an analogy, consider flipping a coin twenty times. Although one might expect ten heads and ten tails, the actual outcome may be slightly different; in this example, the outcome (progeny) does not perfectly represent the relative frequency of heads and tails (the parents).
What does this mean for populations? Start by considering neutral alleles, which have no impact on survival or reproduction. (An example is the presence or absence of a widow's peak hairline.) The frequency of a neutral allele may shift slightly between generations, sometimes increasing and sometimes decreasing. What outcomes are expected from this process? Suppose that a particular allele shifts frequency at random for a number of generations, eventually becoming very rare, with perhaps only one copy in the population. If the individual carrying this allele does not pass it on to any offspring or fails to have any offspring, the allele will be lost to the population. Once lost, the allele is gone from the population forever. In this light, drift causes the loss of genetic variation over time. All populations are subject to this process, with smaller populations more strongly affected than larger ones.

Perhaps better known than the pervasive, general effects of genetic drift are special examples of drift associated with unusually small populations. Genetic bottlenecks occur when a small number of individuals from a much larger population are the sole contributors to future generations; this occurs when a catastrophe kills most of the population, or when a few individuals start a new population in different area. Genetic bottlenecks reduce the genetic variation in the new or subsequent population relative to the old. Cheetahs, which have very little genetic variation, are presumed to have gone through several genetic bottlenecks. Occasionally, these new populations may have particular alleles that are much more common than in the original population, by chance alone. This is usually called the founder effect.

Migration and Mutation

Migration may also be important in shaping the genetic variation within populations and the differences among them. To geneticists, the word "migration" is synonymous with the term "gene flow." Immigration may change allele frequencies within a population if the immigrants differ genetically. The general effect of gene flow among populations is to make all of the populations of a species more similar. It can also restore alleles lost through genetic drift, or introduce new alleles formed by mutation in another population. Migration is often seen as the "glue" that binds the subpopulation of a species together. Emigration is not expected to change populations unless the migrants are genetically different from those that remain; this is rarely observed, so emigration is often ignored.

The last important process is mutation. Mutation is now understood in great detail at the molecular level, and consists of any change in the deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) sequence of an organism. These mutations range from single base substitutions to the deletion or addition of tens or hundreds of bases to the duplication or reorganization of entire chromosomes . Mutation is most important as the sole source of all new genetic variation, which can then be spread from the population of origin by migration. This importance should not be undervalued, although the impact of mutation on most populations is negligible at any given time. This is because mutation rates are typically very low.

Questions and Contributions

The real challenge of population genetics has been in understanding how the four processes work together to produce the observable patterns. For instance, genetic drift eliminates variation from populations, as do the most common modes of natural selection. How then can the abundance of genetic variation in the world be explained?

This question has many complicated answers, but some cases, such as the observation of deleterious alleles in humans (for example, alleles for phenylketonuria, a genetic disease), might be explained in terms of mutation and selection. Mutation adds these alleles to a population, and selection removes them; although the rate of mutation is likely to be nearly constant, the rate at which selection removes them increases as the abundance of the allele increases. This is certainly true for recessive alleles, which are only expressed when an individual has two copies. With only one, the allele remains unexpressed and therefore not selected. At some point, predictable from the mutation rate and physical consequences of the disease, the two opposing forces balance, producing the stable persistence of the disease allele at low frequency.

As a discipline, population genetics has contributed greatly to scientists' understanding of many disparate topics, including the development of resistance of insects to insecticides and of pathogenic bacteria to antibiotics, an explanation of human genetic variation like the alleles for sickle-cell anemia and blood groups, the evolutionary relationships among species, and many others. Of particular interest is the use of genetic data in conservation biology.

By definition, endangered and threatened species have reduced population sizes, making them subject to the vagaries of genetic drift and also to inbreeding. Inbreeding is mating between genetically related individuals, and often leads to inbreeding depression, a reduction of health, vigor, and fertility. Genetic drift leads to a loss of genetic variation, which limits what selection can do to produce adaptations if the environment changes. Keeping these two issues in mind, greatly reduced populations may be at increasingly greater risk for genetic reasons, leading to further declines.

SEE ALSO C ONSERVATION ; E NDANGERED S PECIES ; E VOLUTION ; E XTINCTION ; H ARDY -W EINBERG E QUILIBRIUM ; N ATURAL S ELECTION ; S EXUAL R EPRODUCTION

Paul R. Cabe

Bibliography

Gillespie, John H. Population Genetics: A Concise Guide. Baltimore, MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998.

Hardy, Godfrey. "Mendelian Proportions in Mixed Populations." Science 28 (1908): 49–50.

Hartl, Daniel. A Primer of Population Genetics. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates, 1999.

Hedrick, Philip W. Genetics of Populations. Boston, MA: Jones and Bartlett, 2000.

Smith, John Maynard. Evolutionary Genetics, 2nd ed. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1998.


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## kupper (Apr 30, 2011)

Good read Nicole


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## Jungle_Freak (Apr 30, 2011)

I doubt jags would survive in the wild dew to a few factors.

1 . They are a bright colour morph , wild types only survive because of there colours and patterns blending into their habitats etc..
There are good reasons why colour morphs are rare as rocking horse crap in nature IE in the wild.
Thats because they stand out to preditors .

2nd . The neuro issues that can arise from stress in captivity would be minamal when compared to wild enviromental stress triggers.
Jags would be easy picking for preditors .
End of story ......


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## Jay84 (Apr 30, 2011)

longqi said:


> But what will be the aftermath when this happens??
> Imagine if a gravid jungle Jag escaped in Far North Qld
> Or a diamond Jag in the Mid North coast of NSW
> 
> ...


***Disclaimer - I am no expert lol


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## ad (Apr 30, 2011)

What harm could a genetically defective animal cause to our native animals?


Who cares? do *YOU*?

Try to think of the positives of what they could do to our eco system, 

"Natural predators will quickly dispose of them, because of all their unnaturalness"

Our native wildlife is safe from these 'sick' animals, based on this.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 30, 2011)

I guess the yellow bumblebee BHP and albino pythons ( some adult )were all destined to be picked off by predators before keepers found them hey ?
What a load of excretement.


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## wranga (Apr 30, 2011)

cant say that im a lover or hater of jags, but i dont see how an escapee or afew escapees will/would take over a wild population of natives


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## longqi (Apr 30, 2011)

Jungle freak 
1 ..Some snakes are among the most rightly coloured creatures on Earth and some Tully or Palmerston Jungles etc would match any jag out there for brightness and striping etc so the colour morph would have little impact on survival
2 .. Whether or not these neuro issues arise from the stress of captivity would seem to be a very very debatable point because from anecdotal evidence some hatchlings show symptoms immediately after hatching??
Only breeders can really answer that question and most Jag breeders are not too forth coming about exact clutch sizes and reporting of problems and I cannot blame them in any way for this

Carpet Pythons
Very interesting reading although I must admit most of it is still going straight over my head
The links will take a while to begin to digest as each link adds more questions to this question

But I think I would be correct in saying that a Jag would fit into the Mutation category
If this is the case it appears to be a very tough mutation in that it has continued to occur for at least 5 generations now and does not look as if it affects the reproductive capacity of the reptiles??
Even when put with natural/clean/unaffected morelia this one remains as strong as it has ever been??
So is this neuro problem causing 'gene' a very dominant one??

Australian breeders were very lucky to have somehow hit exactly the right combination again and produce Jags
But we appear to have a similar degree of neuro problems to the overseas varieties and this disproved my theory that that Irian Jayas were the major factor in the whole Jag Neuro problem
I thought that was the cause because although the 'creator' of jags always said his Jags had no I/J in them; the first neuro problems did not get reported until after the Americans/Europeans had introduced the I/Js into the picture after the second generation??

I will keep attempting to do more of an analysis as I read more
Please correct any errors I am making as I am no rocket scientist and have never studied any form of genetics


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## BARRAMUNDI (Apr 30, 2011)

Does it really matter what captive reptile escapes.....

All captive reptiles no matter the Genus, species, morph, defect, disease or genetic make up that manages to escape poses a severe threat in any environment and in any location. All escapees have the potential to cause serious harm to our eco systems.

A jag, albino, spotted python, frog or gecko that has escaped captivity and made it into the bush is as potentially dangerous as any.........

The simple fact is that everything in a keepers power should be done to ensure no captive reptile ever escapes......bottom line


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## hnn17 (Apr 30, 2011)

longqi: from past jag threads - jags were not produce in australia because we were lucky to hit upon the combination/gene again, a jag was smuggle into australia and bred with local stock (they thought that due to the wide range of genetics available they could breed out the neuro issues, they can't) and the first generation was given the name rpm, but now people are calling them what they are - jags.

if a gravid jag ever escape i will wait 50 years and see what happen, too early to comment.


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## abnrmal91 (Apr 30, 2011)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Does it really matter what captive reptile escapes.....
> 
> All captive reptiles no matter the Genus, species, morph, defect, disease or genetic make up that manages to escape poses a severe threat in any environment and in any location. All escapees have the potential to cause serious harm to our eco systems.
> 
> ...


 
Couldn't agree more. Any animal that escapes into a area were it's not natural found is a potential risk. There are many man made situation were people short sightedly released animal into the wild and we still feel it today. Things such as the cane toad and the rabbit destroyed the environments they were released into and then spread from there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## spotlight (Apr 30, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> I doubt jags would survive in the wild dew to a few factors.
> 
> 1 . They are a bright colour morph , wild types only survive because of there colours and patterns blending into their habitats etc..
> There are good reasons why colour morphs are rare as rocking horse crap in nature IE in the wild.
> ...


 so you have never seen a bright coloured jungle in the wild? (do you think this colour only developed in captivity?, and as for being picked off due to its bright colours alot of albinos found in the wild were at least yearlings or older????.


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## Wookie (Apr 30, 2011)

Selection is all well and good in the long term. But short term not so much. An adult escapes.... what predators are gonna hurt it? Virtually none. It is male, so can breed with every female it finds during a period injecting her with his hot steamy genetic code :lol:.Natural selection doesn't always apply to the unnatural

And I guess the reasoning why a lost jag is worse than a out of locale morelia is the fact that a morelia would make a hybrid population. The jag would make a hybrid population of retards.


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## abnrmal91 (Apr 30, 2011)

Wookie said:


> The jag would make a hybrid population of retards.


 
Hahaha 

They wouldn't be good for much

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 30, 2011)

I've rarely read such an untested load of theoretical bollocks in my life. Genetically modified animals with significant defects don't survive in the wild - the chance of them breeding and wiping out species in Australia is nonsensical.

Jamie


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## silverback (Apr 30, 2011)

how would a jungle jag, a jungle, a bredli or a darwin escaping, in say melbourne, have any different effect? the jag gene doesn't present any greater threat to biodiversity. if there was a legitimate threat, it would be preferential to keep exotics that wouldn't breed with native species than to keep natives in a different location to where they originated. the notion that a few escapee animals may lead to the demise of a species through breeding bad traits is an uneducated one.

on the basis of the thread opener, if it was ever the case that the jag mutation surfaced in the wild population naturally (as mutations do ) then this would lead to the extinction of all Morelia. the likelihood of the jag gene already having surfaced at least once in the history of australia is high, and the demise of Morelia as a result has not occurred.


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## Jungle_Freak (Apr 30, 2011)

spotlight said:


> so you have never seen a bright coloured jungle in the wild? (do you think this colour only developed in captivity?, and as for being picked off due to its bright colours alot of albinos found in the wild were at least yearlings or older????.


 

I believe i said colour and neuro issues,
combining these 2 traits in any animal ??????????????
and preditors will have a field day.


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## longqi (Apr 30, 2011)

Jay
I actually agree with some parts of your answer but would natural selection be enough to get rid of this seemingly very powerful mutation?
That is why I put up both of my thoughts there
If I am incorrect calling it a mutation please correct me as now I am following that line of thought through the links
If say a diamond etc escaped anywhere else it would be assimilated into the gene pool fairly quickly if I read Carpets post correctly

Barramundi and abnormal
While I completely agree that any animal can have devastating results if released very very few could lead to the damage these could cause if this gene/mutation is as strong as it appears to be
Cane toads and rabbits, while having enormous environmental impacts, did not introduce a 'new' gene/mutation

Hnn17
Oh No I never thought any aussie would do such a thing?? 
[it was a bit tongue in cheek]
The reason I believe it is the Irian Jayas is that I can find no neuro problems reported before they were introduced into the breeding

Wookie
That is exactly what I am trying to decide with everyones input


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## D3pro (Apr 30, 2011)

Bollocks indeed. I think a lot of people here are just pulling attention away from other real issues and threats that are occurring to our native wildlife, like loss of habitat, poaching, shovels and feral cats.
Much better then making such a big unneeded argument of theories and non-researched dribble.


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## FAY (Apr 30, 2011)

Going on about jags is becoming tiresome, they are here to stay..............I personally would never buy one, they do not interest me.


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## nervous (Apr 30, 2011)

to my knowledge it is only jags themselves that carry the defect issue, the mutt sibs do not carry this... so this leads me to believe that if a jag escape and bred with say a diamond it would be no different then a jungle escaping and breeding with a diamond... they both would produce mutts and pollute that area...

so im saying if a jag escaped and bred with a diamond you would get a mixture of mutts and morphs... no different to the jungle and diamond except they wouldn't produce morphs, just mutts.


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## wranga (Apr 30, 2011)

think afew more people need to find alittle more out about the jag gene before worrying about afew escapees


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## BARRAMUNDI (Apr 30, 2011)

longqi said:


> Jay
> I actually agree with some parts of your answer but would natural selection be enough to get rid of this seemingly very powerful mutation?
> That is why I put up both of my thoughts there
> If I am incorrect calling it a mutation please correct me as now I am following that line of thought through the links
> ...



Every argument when it comes to JAGS always comes back to neuro, there are very few people who have significant hands on experience with JAGS, yet every JAG hater with his/her non existent experience with jags portrays them to all be retards or mongeloids, mainly becuase thats what they want them to be. Sadly for them this is not the case and these descriptions of them is dribble and uneducated with an obvious agenda........Simply ask any new owners of JAGS .......

longqi.....I think someone eluded to the fact that it is a very real possibility that this morph/mutation may have or may well already exist within our wild populations of morelia. Whether it does or not is speculation, but it is a distinct and very very real possibility.......

Once again the bottom line is, do everything in your power to prevent captive reptile escapes, all are potentially catastrophic.......


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## longqi (Apr 30, 2011)

Silverback
Correct me if Im wrong
But
If Jags really were smuggled into Aus then there is no reason to believe that this gene would have ever surfaced here before??
As stated previously and probably proved through Carpets reply a healthy non locale sub species would be simply be assimilated into the local population fairly quickly with little side effects even if it did breed

D3PO and Python
Hopefully it is all bollocks
Hopefully none will ever escape and we never have to find out
Hopefully someone can prove that this theory is incorrect

I have lots more reading to do before I can decide


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## Kitah (Apr 30, 2011)

I would have thought they would be just as big a risk as any other snake that escaped into an area where that particular subspecies is not normally found. Is it correct that if you cross a jag with a normal, healthy python with no genetic relationship to jags, that the offspring would come out 'normal' without the apparent neurological signs? (my apologies, I'll admit I haven't followed the genetics of the jag mutation). I suppose if say for example a mature adult jag male escaped during the breeding season and was able to mate with natural, wild females, the surviving offspring could perhaps then reproduce and would the jag gene then arise again, if siblings from the father were to by chance survive and find each other? Even if this were the case, the offspring would stand out considerably, and if there were neurological issues in addition, they would be a prime target for predation. To even initiate this though, the male jag would have to survive long enough to locate females and mate successfully.. which would be significantly hindered by stress and neurological issues.

As said by others before, the best method to prevent the crossing of Morelia, take all measures to prevent escapee's to start with, whether they are jags, jungles, murray darlings or whatever. The same goes for other captive kept reptiles and amphibians as well.

Granted, admittedly this is just my opinion from the 'outside,' considering I don't keep any jags and don't have any experience with them. Just my thoughts


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## longqi (Apr 30, 2011)

Barramundi
This neuro problem has not gone away
Nor by the overseas reports does it seem likely that it can be bred out in fact it is being reported as perfectly acceptable and fully expected that if you buy a jag you are buying one with this problem to a greater or lesser extent

Believe me ... I dont hate jags
I will not ever buy one until I could be guaranteed that it had no neuro problems
But I think colour wise they can be magic

Kitah
Mixing in 'normal healthy morelia with Jags has not decreased the incidence of neuro problems


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Apr 30, 2011)

longqi said:


> healthy non locale sub species would be simply be assimilated into the local population fairly quickly with little side effects even if it did breed



Correct, it would be the same with all carpet pythons! Including Jags.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Apr 30, 2011)

Another major factor that has been overlooked here is the survival rate of natural wild reptile populations, that being less than 1%. (The source of that info was from a paper presented at a ARAZPA Zoological conference, I will try and get the abstract if I can) If the survival rate of fit wild reptile populations is suggested to be less than 1%, then the survival rate of neonates from a captive background gene pool would be even less.

This still does not negate the fact that any escape of any type of captive reptile is detrimental.........


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## silverback (Apr 30, 2011)

longqi said:


> Silverback
> Correct me if Im wrong
> But
> If Jags really were smuggled into Aus then there is no reason to believe that this gene would have ever surfaced here before??



yes, you are wrong. the occurrence of a mutant gene is not geographically dependent. the likelihood of any mutation where the wild population vastly exceeds the captive popultion, is more likely in the wild.
_note _i am not referring to the incidence of a mutation, which would be expressed per number and may be higher in captive breeding due to a smaller gene pool.


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## noved (Apr 30, 2011)

They have all ready escaped,there are exotics turning up in back yards even up here in the north and i am sure no one would let a exotic go on purpose after they have gone to the extent of risking a fine keeping them hidden and so on, so it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to assume jags have all ready escaped.lets hope the Australian wildlife and there genetic make up can put up a decent fight.


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## silverback (Apr 30, 2011)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Another major factor that has been overlooked here is the survival rate of natural wild reptile populations, that being less than 1%.


 
illogical and mathematically ludicrous.....a pair of knobbies say would have to produce 5 clutches per year for ten years for one to survive to replace one of the thousands of adults that get squashed on the roads every night just to keep the populations stable. if 1% was even close to the figure, all reptiles would have been extinct years ago.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Apr 30, 2011)

Exactly, you say a pair of nobbies, there are perhaps tens of thousands of pairs of nobbies of said particular species in the wild, probably more.......Less than 1% makes total sense. Look at the big picture. 

There are vast areas of thousands of hectares of land that exists in species home ranges.

Anyway off topic


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## longqi (Apr 30, 2011)

silverback said:


> yes, you are wrong. the occurrence of a mutant gene is not geographically dependent. the likelihood of any mutation where the wild population vastly exceeds the captive popultion, is more likely in the wild.
> _note _i am not referring to the incidence of a mutation, which would be expressed per number and may be higher in captive breeding due to a smaller gene pool.



Ty ty ty
And once 'started' would be more prevalent in captive bred Jags simply because they have been bred together??

So this neuro/gene; even though it can skip a generation and then come back; would eventually be bred out if they escaped and bred?


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Apr 30, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I am not going to get involved with this discussion again. There are certain evolutionary processes involved in a situation like this that zoologists and geneticists would be well aware of. I have taken the liberty to find some information on the Internet that would enlighten the majority of you about what exactly happens to a wild population if new alleles are introduced to it. You can read the below to familiarise yourselves with some of the correct terminology that zoologist and geneticists use. I would be very surprised to see if anybody posting in this thread actually took the time to read it. Here is the link to the webpage
> 
> Population Genetics - Biology Encyclopedia - body, examples, human, process, different, chromosomes, DNA, blood
> 
> ...




I can appreciate that this has taken a long time for you to put on here, but I fail to see it having a huge relevance to the question asked? Are you trying to point out that the Jags are so genetically inferior that they will just fail to thrive in the wild and not produce any offspring? Do you think that "natural selection" is so powerful that it will instantly erradicate them? Any effect that natural selection has on the population is only going to be long term and gradual working on the statistical chances of survival. I dont think we really have the ability to discount the possible threat of them having an impact on the population and fitting in as a new species per say that does not naturally belong here. I dont have any first hand experience with jags and their neuro problems but with people claiming their jags show no effects of neuro problems it cant be that big a problem for them that they cant survive and reproduce in the wild.


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## Morelia4life (Apr 30, 2011)

nervous said:


> to my knowledge it is only jags themselves that carry the defect issue, the mutt sibs do not carry this... so this leads me to believe that if a jag escape and bred with say a diamond it would be no different then a jungle escaping and breeding with a diamond... they both would produce mutts and pollute that area...
> 
> so im saying if a jag escaped and bred with a diamond you would get a mixture of mutts and morphs... no different to the jungle and diamond except they wouldn't produce morphs, just mutts.


 
I think that all jags carry the neuro genes but they are dormant and don't start to show up until the animal itself is stressed out enough. I have a jag and he started showing slight neuro issues about a week ago. I don't know if they could survive in the wild or not. Anything is possible.


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## spotlight (Apr 30, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> I think that all jags carry the neuro genes but they are dormant and don't start to show up until the animal itself is stressed out enough. I have a jag and he started showing slight neuro issues about a week ago. I don't know if they could survive in the wild or not. Anything is possible.


 did you get told by the breeder that your snake would develope nero issues?, its funny how things change depending on the snake at hand ,if i sold say a Blackheaded python that showed nero signs i would get a bad rep from all the breeders out there? but because its a Jag you get a pat on the back because its normal ?, really cant get my head around this, maybe ive been breedings snakes for way to many years and just dont fit in anymore???


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## nervous (Apr 30, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> I think that all jags carry the neuro genes but they are dormant and don't start to show up until the animal itself is stressed out enough. I have a jag and he started showing slight neuro issues about a week ago. I don't know if they could survive in the wild or not. Anything is possible.



i know all jags have the "possibility" to have neuro problems... i was refering to there "mutt" siblings, you know the siblings that dont carry the mutant gene...


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## Cockney_Red (Apr 30, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I am not going to get involved with this discussion again. There are certain evolutionary processes involved in a situation like this that zoologists and geneticists would be well aware of. I have taken the liberty to find some information on the Internet that would enlighten the majority of you about what exactly happens to a wild population if new alleles are introduced to it. You can read the below to familiarise yourselves with some of the correct terminology that zoologist and geneticists use. I would be very surprised to see if anybody posting in this thread actually took the time to read it. Here is the link to the webpage
> 
> Population Genetics - Biology Encyclopedia - body, examples, human, process, different, chromosomes, DNA, blood
> 
> ...


 
Cant be more uninvolved if you tried....


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## longqi (Apr 30, 2011)

nervous said:


> i know all jags have the "possibility" to have neuro problems... i was refering to there "mutt" siblings, you know the siblings that dont carry the mutant gene...



Well that is another interesting point
Some Jags overseas have displayed no symptoms at all for up to 5 years and then fallen over [so to speak]
So could these 'mutts' also be carriers but display nothing??
Does a 'mutt' still carry the same genes as a morph?
I would think it must do if its from the same parents and only one male and female were involved
Maybe 'mutts' still carry the neuro but dont display the colours??

[More internet work]

Morelia
So what was the stress factor that 'activated' the neuro in yours if you dont mind me asking?
I have heard that theory from a few places now
But most of the keepers saying it are pretty good keepers who would seldom if ever allow their animals to get stressed
If you cant remember an incident could it be that yours was just one of these 'delayed neuro' ones?


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## Inkage (Apr 30, 2011)

I don't like the escapees odds.


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## ShaneBlack (Apr 30, 2011)

I guess at the end of the day they're all just captive or pet snakes so its irrelevant as to whether they're jags or any other sort of morelia, as they're all technically exotics if they escape outside their natural home range. But on a side note...I dont understand how people can keep something that they believe isnt capable of surviving in the wild....call me old fashioned, but personally, I couldnt keep some snake that was so "wrecked" it wasnt capable of surviving in the bush. Flame away....


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## mrkos (Apr 30, 2011)

Sounds like a big load of s##t to me what if a diamond with dps escapes in north Queensland and manages to breed with a coastal or a jungle Ime sure it's happened. I think we underestimate how well mother nature takes care of herself and how strong our native gene pool is. Does this neuro problem even exist in the wild. Personally I feel cane toads are our biggest threat we face the little f#####s are everywhere. This neuro theory is just another one of our many possible problems we face along with the 15 metre tsunami we are meant to cop next year on the east coast it's all crap.


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## cement (Apr 30, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I am not going to get involved with this discussion again. There are certain evolutionary processes involved in a situation like this that zoologists and geneticists would be well aware of. I have taken the liberty to find some information on the Internet that would enlighten the majority of you about what exactly happens to a wild population if new alleles are introduced to it. You can read the below to familiarise yourselves with some of the correct terminology that zoologist and geneticists use. I would be very surprised to see if anybody posting in this thread actually took the time to read it. Here is the link to the webpage
> 
> Population Genetics - Biology Encyclopedia - body, examples, human, process, different, chromosomes, DNA, blood
> 
> ...



hahaha! Reminds me of an old zen saying...

"if you can't blind them with science, baffle them witha bulls hit.":lol:

The only truth that either pro jag or anti jag can say at this point is that no-one knows.
Anyone who believes that they know the answer to this question is treating themselves like an amusement park.
The only difference I can see,that jags have made to this point, as far as being different to any other subspecies released or escaped into the wild, is that we would never be in this situation at all if they hadn't been brought in.

It's now in gods hands, and time will tell.


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## Morelia4life (May 1, 2011)

longqi said:


> Well that is another interesting point
> Some Jags overseas have displayed no symptoms at all for up to 5 years and then fallen over [so to speak]
> So could these 'mutts' also be carriers but display nothing??
> Does a 'mutt' still carry the same genes as a morph?
> ...


 
To be honest, I don't know. I got my jag on Feb. 17. I already had everything set up for him when he got here. He was fine until about 2 weeks ago or so he started roaming his cage a lot and doing the little 'backflip' things with his head. It isn't severe or anything, I jut notice him doing it from time to time. For the past couple days he has been fine. He hasn't been doing any of that, that is why I say it is slight.



spotlight said:


> did you get told by the breeder that your snake would develope nero issues?, its funny how things change depending on the snake at hand ,if i sold say a Blackheaded python that showed nero signs i would get a bad rep from all the breeders out there? but because its a Jag you get a pat on the back because its normal ?, really cant get my head around this, maybe ive been breedings snakes for way to many years and just dont fit in anymore???


 
When I got my Jag from the breeder, he said that it didn't show any signs and he was right. I had my jag for around 2 months before he started showing signs. Everyone knows that jags can develop neuro issues. The only thing people don't know is what causes it. I just happen to think that all jags have the neuro issue gene but it is dormant and doesn't present itself until the snake undergoes stress. Some people think that it is brought on by harsh chemicals or that the snake has issues straight out of the egg.


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## spotlight (May 1, 2011)

this is the thing i can not get my head around! why breed or buy them if they show the nero signs? it cant be because they look good in a cage if they wave around the cage when you watch them?.
when a child is born with a defect we love that child for what he or she is ! ( but that could not be helped, as they say "it was gods will"? ),but the jag is man made and is being bred for that trait!!!.
SORRY!!!! i just dont understand???.
and everyone understand the jag escaping issue is not due to a morph mixing with the population!! its the fact of the nero issues mixing with the wild population ( who cares if a diamond gets out up north, what damage would it cause at least its healthy in body and soul).
once again im sorry i dont understand!!!!.
a quick question to all the jag keepers and breeders when your jag does the nero thing what do you think to your self " AWWW THAT IS SO CUTE!!!!!!.
the only thing that i do agree on is they are a good looking snake but is it really worth it here in Australia?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 1, 2011)

spotlight said:


> this is the thing i can not get my head around! why breed or buy them if they show the nero signs? it cant be because they look good in a cage if they wave around the cage when you watch them?.
> when a child is born with a defect we love that child for what he or she is ! ( but that could not be helped, as they say "it was gods will"? ),but the jag is man made and is being bred for that trait!!!.
> SORRY!!!! i just dont understand???.
> and everyone understand the jag escaping issue is not due to a morph mixing with the population!! its the fact of the nero issues mixing with the wild population ( who cares if a diamond gets out up north, what damage would it cause at least its healthy in body and soul).
> ...


 
It's clear that you don't understand! The information that I posted was copied and pasted from sources around the web. I could list hundreds of science text books that are peer reviewed by real experts in the field that contains the same information that I posted. Read the information, cross reference some of the scientific words with a good biology dictionary and try to understand these basic principles of gene flow in a population. It's not as simple as forum posters expect it to be! A few captive bred native carpet pythons released into a population of wild animals would have no effect on the current population. A few thousand released in the same area could have a more serious effect!


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 1, 2011)

spotlight said:


> this is the thing i can not get my head around! why breed or buy them if they show the nero signs? it cant be because they look good in a cage if they wave around the cage when you watch them?.
> when a child is born with a defect we love that child for what he or she is ! ( but that could not be helped, as they say "it was gods will"? ),but the jag is man made and is being bred for that trait!!!.
> SORRY!!!! i just dont understand???.
> and everyone understand the jag escaping issue is not due to a morph mixing with the population!! its the fact of the nero issues mixing with the wild population ( who cares if a diamond gets out up north, what damage would it cause at least its healthy in body and soul).once again im sorry i dont understand!!!!.
> ...




Its post like this above why this argument will never end. The statements and opinions within are based on zero experience and heresay amongst the anti-jag brigade......

If a JAG has shown neuro signs it does not display these signs 24/7. There are far too many anti-JAG keepers out there passing off misleading and false info regarding neuro in JAGS.

YES neuro is present in some JAGS, some severe (very very few) and some minor and some dont display it at all.

The signs may appear for a few seconds every few weeks or months even years. It is very very rare for one to display constant signs. Generally the signs (if present) occur during extreme excitement or stress. Remembering that only a very small percentage exhibit signs and the majority either never do display or display extremely minor signs. In my experience more than 95% of JAGS live completely normal and thrive in our captive environments just like any other python......

So in my experience and the numerous keepers experiences that have aquired JAGS from me, yes we do buy them and keep them becuase they look hot in our enclosures, not too mention the possibilities for new colourations and patterns through selective breeding JAGS that are above and beyond regular morelias.....

The neuro issue is part and parcel with working with this morph, however it is nowhere near as severe as some anti-jag keepers are making it out to be.........


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## longqi (May 1, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> It's clear that you don't understand! The information that I posted was copied and pasted from sources around the web. I could list hundreds of science text books that are peer reviewed by real experts in the field that contains the same information that I posted. Read the information, cross reference some of the scientific words with a good biology dictionary and try to understand these basic principles of gene flow in a population. It's not as simple as forum posters expect it to be! A few captive bred native carpet pythons released into a population of wild animals would have no effect on the current population. A few thousand released in the same area could have a more serious effect!



After getting through a surprisingly large amount of those references in some ways I must agree with you Carpet

Please correct any of this I have wrong as I am a total novice about jeans

If we take directly from those references that the best females are attracted to the best males in most species then things change dramatically
1,,A jungle Jag would usually be bigger, stronger, more attractive to local jungles??
2..Some Jags display no symptoms for up 5 years??
3..The gene may skip a generation only to return??

A young male jungle jag escapes in the Palmerston Gorge
This male is big strong and beautiful
He exhibits no signs of neuro so the very best local females cue up to meet him
This continues for 3 more years until one day he wakes up a bit under the weather

His progeny will do one of three things
They will immediately show neuro signs and die?
They will show no immediate signs and thrive with X% also being the biggest strongest and most attractive?
They will be normal looking jungles which do or dont still carry the gene??

Nature only allows X% of hatchies to survive through predation etc etc
If that X% is now further diluted by a bad gene what is the future for that local sub-species of morelia??

So only using those references a male Jungle Jag could really have an impact on a small area such as the Palmerston Gorge??

Just food for thought



BARRAMUNDI said:


> Its post like this above why this argument will never end. The statements and opinions within are based on zero experience and heresay amongst the anti-jag brigade......
> 
> If a JAG has shown neuro signs it does not display these signs 24/7. There are far too many anti-JAG keepers out there passing off misleading and false info regarding neuro in JAGS.
> 
> ...



Barramundi
WOW
This is actually a huge difference to international figures so I must say I'm impressed

From their estimates in the USA most breeders expect between 80 and 90% of Jags to display symptoms
So for us to have only


> In my experience more than 95% of JAGS live completely normal and thrive in our captive environments just like any other python......[unquote] means that things here are vastly different
> 
> This puts a whole different look at this as my only experience has been in the USA and Indonesia where the problem seems a lot worse
> 
> Thanks for that information


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## wranga (May 1, 2011)

longqi said:


> After getting through a surprisingly large amount of those references in some ways I must agree with you Carpet
> 
> Please correct any of this I have wrong as I am a total novice about jeans
> 
> ...



how far would an escaped jungle jag have to travel if it was to escape from surburbia
to reach palmerston gorge before it was lucky enough to mate and have an impact on this small area?


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 1, 2011)

Longqi

The overseas figures are correct, whats incorrect is that most peoples statements portray all the JAGS to be twisters and mongeloids etc, 95% will live and behave normally with only either very minor or not noticeable symptoms. All have the potential to show neuro, yet not all will. The majority that show neuro exhibit very minor and barely noticeable symptoms. Very very few display severe looping and twisting. To date from 70 or so juvies, 2 have shown twisting.........


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for answering that for me Wranga. Neurological signs actually makes males useless when it comes to male combat. 

1. It does not matter how attractive a snake looks to us as people. Carpet pythons don't use visual cues to detect suitability of a mate. They perceive their environment through their chemosensory organs. 

2. It could even take longer. 

3. Genes don't skip a generation! They are either expressed or suppressed. 

Some more reading and applying ahead for you Longqi!


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## longqi (May 1, 2011)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Longqi
> 
> The overseas figures are correct, whats incorrect is that most peoples statements portray all the JAGS to be twisters and mongeloids etc, 95% will live and behave normally with only either very minor or not noticeable symptoms. All have the potential to show neuro, yet not all will. The majority that show neuro exhibit very minor and barely noticeable symptoms. Very very few display severe looping and twisting. To date from 70 or so juvies, 2 have shown twisting.........



I will reply to wranga first if I may
This scenario is just that
A scenario and one which could be equably used on other of the smaller localised populations that more experienced know about but generally keep fairly quiet such as various populations of diamonds etc etc
I only used Palmerston as an example because that is a very well known one

Barramundi
Using you last post as well now is where I find this thing really disturbing

In your last post you said 95% will live normal lives??
To me a normal life would never involve any twitching at all?
If a human starts twitching etc it is usually accompanied by more serious mental or physical problems?
A human can tell us what is happening inside and we can usually find ways to cure or alleviate the problem?

But if a snake starts twitching we just say that is part of their normal life???

Although lots of people disagree with me I use reptiles for display
This involves lots of hands on work and getting the snake to totally trust me is the secret
Most of my snakes except the chondros were wild caught
Within one month I fully expect that no wild caught snake will even attempt to bite me again
Within two months I expect to be able to use that snake in my displays

One single twitch or other different change is enough for me to gently remove that snake from a show and start looking for what caused it
and I am usually not satisfied until I understand exactly what the snake was telling me

I cannot do that with a snake that has a probabilty of twitching??

This has probably clarified a few things for me now
You are welcome to continue breeding these
But I could never ever deliberately breed something that has these outward signs
and then pretend to myself that this is normal

Good luck


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## wranga (May 1, 2011)

longqi...i understand that you were using palmeston gorge as an example. but in reality it would be near impossible for an escapee to reach one of these wild population unless it was kept on the fringes of one of these populations. so we come back to an earlier post by i think CarpetPythons that an escapee would have no efect on any wild natives. this has been an interesting thread, but after 4 pages its still at the same point as page 1.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 1, 2011)

longqi said:


> This has probably clarified a few things for me now
> You are welcome to continue breeding these
> But I could never ever deliberately breed something that has these outward signs
> and then pretend to myself that this is normal
> ...


 
No problem! Its your opinion and I fully respect that.


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 1, 2011)

Longqi

Once again its the lack of understanding and experience which is what is confusing yourself and others in regards to these symptoms. I cant believe that now you and others are describing what JAGS do without ever actually having any hands on experience.

you use the term twitching......JAGS dont twitch. When referring to normal lives I am making reference to the fact that 95% LIVE NORMAL LIVES. NO TWITCHING, NO LOOPING, NO SPIRALLING........

In the most severe case they will loop or spiral, this occurrence is very very rare and when it does occur it will only last while the animal is exposed to the stress or excitement and at times for a short period after, this is not a normal life. Remove the stimulus and you remove the symptoms........

Someone has said it already, you are no closer to answering your own question, all it appears now is that you are indirectly trying to bait myself and others........On the note of baiting, Im doing something more constructive than banging my head against the wall dealing with people who cannot comprehend simple facts. Time to go fishing........

By the way whats the deal with wild caught animals, you refer to the situation as though you use wild caught reptiles often and recently.......


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## longqi (May 1, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Thanks for answering that for me Wranga. Neurological signs actually makes males useless when it comes to male combat.
> 
> 1. It does not matter how attractive a snake looks to us as people. Carpet pythons don't use visual cues to detect suitability of a mate. They perceive their environment through their chemosensory organs.
> 
> ...




Ty Carpets
I will continue to read about this
GF is away for another few days

I wonder if anyone has ever tried that to prove your point?
Put a normal sized female jungle with a normal sized male jungle and a normal sized but pretty jungle jag who shows no signs of neuro problems?
If I was the female I know who I would probably choose
and surely the size difference would balance out the combat??

Forgive my terminology I was trying to keep it as much as possible in laymans terms



BARRAMUNDI said:


> Longqi
> 
> Once again its the lack of understanding and experience which is what is confusing yourself and others in regards to these symptoms. I cant believe that now you and others are describing what JAGS do without ever actually having any hands on experience.
> 
> ...



Actually Barramundi although I have never attempted to breed them I have handled and seen approximately 400 jags in Both USA and Indonesia ranging through all sizes and including most mixtures
Therefore although I cannot say I have ever bred them I do have a little bit of knowledge about them and 'twitching' would be one of the most prevalent symptoms I have personally seen
I totally agree that spiralling etc is one of the most pitiful things things I have ever seen any reptile do
The other nasty one is that kind of backward star gazing they sometimes do
[Bit like OPMV in the middle stages??]

Hope you catch plenty
lousy fishing up here

I refered to my using wild caughts because I live in Indonesia now and the vast majority of my display animals are wild caught and were destined for the dinner table
I buy from the food markets here in the majority of cases although some are brought into the display


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## cement (May 1, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> It's clear that you don't understand! The information that I posted was copied and pasted from sources around the web. I could list hundreds of science text books that are peer reviewed by real experts in the field that contains the same information that I posted. Read the information, cross reference some of the scientific words with a good biology dictionary and try to understand these basic principles of gene flow in a population. It's not as simple as forum posters expect it to be! A few captive bred native carpet pythons released into a population of wild animals would have no effect on the current population. A few thousand released in the same area could have a more serious effect!



As much as the anti jag people seem to be spreading rumours etc (which I doubt, most of the info they read comes from the states and from people who have been breeding, and have bred more of these then you, barramundi or stone put together),
you guys seem to exaggerate quite a bit to win points.
You have here posted literature off the web that you want us to read and understand, yet you don't acknowledge the literature that Longqi or others read on the web about these animals.
As you deem it so important for us to get hands on with jags before commenting, maybe you could tell us of all your field work experience with wild populations of pythons and the studies you have done that specifically relate to tracking of and monitoring escaped or released non local pythons into local pops.


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## D3pro (May 1, 2011)

longqi, reading this thread and the comments you and the other people made, I can see you have not made any progress. You started this thread with a one way opinion and pre-judgement, asking questions and making theories that have no real research to ether side of the argument and have not reached any real conclusion. If your trying to stir up crap on an already touchy subject maybe you should go on an overseas forum, much better then asking a group of people who have only been keeping jags in the recent years.

Your all just banging your head together, on side saying the world is flat, and the other saying it's square. Non of you are going to get it right anytime soon and all this energy can be put to better use.

You don't like jags fine, don't keep them. Others will.


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## nasool (May 1, 2011)

Good information on the Neuro problem here for those that do not know much about it. "Neuro Jags"

To say 95% of Jags do not show any sign and live a normal life is obviously not true. From the experience of breeders and owners overseas it is pretty much a given that 100% of Jags have the Neuro problem, some may not express it 95% of the time and the severity of it varies but they all have it.


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## longqi (May 1, 2011)

D3pro said:


> longqi, reading this thread and the comments you and the other people made, I can see you have not made any progress. You started this thread with a one way opinion and pre-judgement, asking questions and making theories that have no real research to ether side of the argument and have not reached any real conclusion. If your trying to stir up crap on an already touchy subject maybe you should go on an overseas forum, much better then asking a group of people who have only been keeping jags in the recent years.
> 
> Your all just banging your head together, on side saying the world is flat, and the other saying it's square. Non of you are going to get it right anytime soon and all this energy can be put to better use.
> 
> You don't like jags fine, don't keep them. Others will.



Hi
Actually after reading a pretty large % of the links Carpets left I tend to agree that a gravid female would have very little likelyhood of causing problems
But the question of a male jag which displays no symptoms; loose in a small locale; still remains in mind

I would love to see a definitive answer to that one 
Actually the only reason I brought this up is because exactly the same questions are being asked in Indonesia now
international forums couldnt care less because they dont have native morelia soit does not interest them the least


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## Jungletrans (May 1, 2011)

If the feral cats don't get them the Cane Toads will .


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 1, 2011)

cement said:


> As much as the anti jag people seem to be spreading rumours etc (which I doubt, most of the info they read comes from the states and from people who have been breeding, and have bred more of these then you, barramundi or stone put together),
> you guys seem to exaggerate quite a bit to win points.
> You have here posted literature off the web that you want us to read and understand, yet you don't acknowledge the literature that Longqi or others read on the web about these animals.
> As you deem it so important for us to get hands on with jags before commenting, maybe you could tell us of all your field work experience with wild populations of pythons and the studies you have done that specifically relate to tracking of and monitoring escaped or released non local pythons into local pops.


 
The difference between the information that I provided and the information that you and your jag brigade try to force down people's throats is that my information is acknowledged by most if not all biologist and zoologists, and has been peer reviewed over decades. It has been studied in the field and has been proven to be the principles involved in most populations genetic makeup, not just reptiles. All animal populations gene flow function in a similar manner. You base your facts on information read on forums from countries outside of Australia. Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? The answer is no. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase. 

The research has been done! You just choose to not understand it!


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## Red-Ink (May 1, 2011)

I think we need to put the basic information we know about jags into perspective (complex research and genetic science aside) in regards to "escspees"...

We know that jags will display neurological problems/symptoms/signs when in hightened stressed/excitement is presented (minor to extreme manifestation). We know this as they have shown these in captivity... If JAGS have the possibility to display neurological symptoms in the relative comfort of captivity with them not having to hunt for live prey, no predators, stable temperatures etc.. etc.. I'm afraid that an escape JAG would find the natural environment just a tad too much would you guys not agree? Given this I would be brave enough to say that an escape JAGs survival rate in a local natural environment would be sweet FA... This would make the point of them being a threat to the natural population moot don't you think... If they can get stressed out and so callled "flip out" in a cage then I would think they will have a nervous breakdown in the wild. 

To further put it into perspective the chance of it getting out beyond suburbia where most JAG keepers to actually meet the indegeinous local repltile population is even slimmer.The neighbour will take a shovel to it before it gets close enough to meet another snake.. Can you imagine what they would do when they go to examine this weird snake they have just seen in their yard and it stresses out and starts to twitch/sway/backflip/spiral in an eratic fashion... I can guarantee you that now that pretty little jag is nothing but a "king brown" out to slaughter every man woman and child in that house and will be quickly disposed of with a shovel... Do I need to mention cats, birds, dogs and all manner of other stuff now "stressing" the poor escaped snake out in a setting outside of it's 4x2x2 display enclosure....


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## Morelia4life (May 1, 2011)

I have to say that you are right. I don't think that jags could survive long in the wild. I think it would be way too stressful and it just couldn't handle the requirements of every day life. Most people have to realize that jags don't display neuro issues 24-7. Some only have maybe a wobble or two every now and than for a couple of seconds. My jag might do the little 'backflip' with his head for a few seconds off and on for 20 minutes or so and than he is fine again for a few days. I found this video on youtube and I would have to say that this jag shows severe neuro issues. YouTube - Neuro Regular Jaguar.3gp 

After watching that video, imagine that jag in a tree or out in the open or whatever, twisting and turning and doing 'back*****' and crap like that. Imagine how much attention that would attract from predators. Clearly he wouldn't last long in the wild. Now every jag isn't like that but I have read that it is possible that as they get older the neuro issues get worse. If that is the case than wouldn't all jags probably get picked off as they got older? Just some stuff to think about.


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## D3pro (May 1, 2011)

longqi said:


> Hi
> Actually after reading a pretty large % of the links Carpets left I tend to agree that a gravid female would have very little likelyhood of causing problems
> But the question of a male jag which displays no symptoms; loose in a small locale; still remains in mind


 


CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? *The answer is no*. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase.
> 
> *You just choose to not understand it!*


 
Couldn't of said it better myself.


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## zack13 (May 1, 2011)

Wow some people really do know nothing about natural wildlife. I understand what waterrat was getting at now.


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## longqi (May 1, 2011)

I completely agree that a Jag displaying neuro problems would find it difficult to survive outside
But what about ones that do not display these problems as in the many that grew to 5years or more before showing the slightest external fault?
While all of this wonderful documentation that categorically proves; that a few snakes introduced into an area will have little or no influence; makes for interesting if tedious reading; how about the well cases in both California and Florida where some local varieties of both Corn and King snake have taken over by morphs?
By taken over I mean they have been breeding with the larger more colourful morphs and are producing virtually a new morph which has taken over the old range to the detriment of the local variety
Those cases seem to refute these papers with actual facts rather than theory?

I deliberately did not mention them because there is an enormous difference between a healthy morph and a jag and my major concern was with jags
But now that the only replies are that "these papers prove you are wrong" it is probably time to show that in more that one instance those papers are possibly incorrect in regard to being applied to all species

50 years will tell us the answer and I hope Im wrong


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## wranga (May 1, 2011)

zack13 said:


> Wow some people really do know nothing about natural wildlife. I understand what waterrat was getting at now.



care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.


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## zack13 (May 1, 2011)

wranga said:


> care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.


 
You have taken what I have said the wrong way. I was not speaking of jags but of wild populations and simple genetics. Calm down.


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## Morelia4life (May 1, 2011)

wranga said:


> care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.


 
I want to hear it as well lol.


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## wranga (May 1, 2011)

zack13 said:


> You have taken what I have said the wrong way. I was not speaking of jags but of wild populations and simple genetics. Calm down.



im very calm. just spoils a thread when unrelated comments are made. sorry i must of missed the bit you made on simple genetics


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## zack13 (May 1, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> I want to hear it as well lol.


 
What do you want to hear I'm confused now.



wranga said:


> im very calm. just spoils a thread when unrelated comments are made. sorry i must of missed the bit you made on simple genetics


 
I understand what you are saying but I'm on your side here I just can't be bothered to try to explain logic and reason to close minded people who know little to nothing about wild populations and how genetics work. Also I don't think it was that different from comment 23 of this thread.


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## Waterrat (May 1, 2011)

wranga said:


> care to share zack? id love to hear all about what part of captive keeping of snakes has anything to do with natural wildlife. if it was natural wouldnt it be free? please do tell, maybe you could get another member to help you, if his ban has expired.


 
.........


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## spotlight (May 1, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> The difference between the information that I provided and the information that you and your jag brigade try to force down people's throats is that my information is acknowledged by most if not all biologist and zoologists, and has been peer reviewed over decades. It has been studied in the field and has been proven to be the principles involved in most populations genetic makeup, not just reptiles. All animal populations gene flow function in a similar manner. You base your facts on information read on forums from countries outside of Australia. Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? The answer is no. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase.
> 
> The research has been done! You just choose to not understand it!


 really? how many times have you seen a study tell you its healthy to eat red meat and then the next time tell you its unhealthy to eat red meat??? and the cane toad thing that is always on the minds of many herp keepers 
, they did studies years before they released them and now look at the problem we have today , i really think we need to look at the big picture!!!,
( I have a idea!!! you give me the contact name of a jag breeder (PM to me) who has NO signs of nero issues, i will buy a few hatchling jags off him and raise them up to adults taking notes as i go and publish them on here for all to see with links to utube, that way myself and others like me can know first hand and not read what our US friends are saying about them??.)


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 1, 2011)

longqi said:


> I completely agree that a Jag displaying neuro problems would find it difficult to survive outside
> But what about ones that do not display these problems as in the many that grew to 5years or more before showing the slightest external fault?
> While all of this wonderful documentation that categorically proves; that a few snakes introduced into an area will have little or no influence; makes for interesting if tedious reading; how about the well cases in both California and Florida where some local varieties of both Corn and King snake have taken over by morphs?
> By taken over I mean they have been breeding with the larger more colourful morphs and are producing virtually a new morph which has taken over the old range to the detriment of the local variety
> ...


 
Care to share this data with us? How many thousands of corns do you think escape from American collections when there are 300 million people? You can't compare the two countries.


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## cement (May 1, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> The difference between the information that I provided and the information that you and your jag brigade try to force down people's throats is that my information is acknowledged by most if not all biologist and zoologists, and has been peer reviewed over decades. It has been studied in the field and has been proven to be the principles involved in most populations genetic makeup, not just reptiles. All animal populations gene flow function in a similar manner. You base your facts on information read on forums from countries outside of Australia. Longqi asked a question and it has been answered using principles of population genetics. He asked if a Jag escaping would cause problems? The answer is no. If he asked if a hundred jags escaping would cause problems then the probability of trouble would increase.
> 
> Well said, CP.com, again you not only try to make it personal, but you still don't acknowledge the fact that people other then yourself, know any better then you do.
> If you are willing to tell us all here that over a decade of breeding these snakes out of Australia, including dedication to the point of trying to seperate the neuro issue from the phenotype is just all a load of crap, then I suggest that you are just so intelligent that you simply don't understand common logic.
> ...


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## longqi (May 1, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Care to share this data with us? How many thousands of corns do you think escape from American collections when there are 300 million people? You can't compare the two countries.



That data is openly discussed on kingsnake.com as one simple example
Of course we can compare the two countries regarding healthy morphs escaping and changing local varieties
Of the 1000s of morph you probably quite correctly claim escape each year only a very very few would escape in places where
they can possibly affect the native populations??
yet if you go any american reptile forum this question is being discussed quite openly there

The BIG difference here is I started this regarding reptiles some consider as 'unhealthy' snakes
I only included it to show that the theories can possibly be wrong about the influence of individuals on small populations


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## kupper (May 1, 2011)

nothing like a good jag bashing .... some of you need to move on and realise regardless of how many threads you put up , no matter how many times you remind people of the many fictional variables that may occur the snakes are here to stay ......


any responsible person with half a brain would not let a $1500-2500 snake get out or go missing in the first place !



impulse reptiles said:


> id be more concerned about the possibility that Opmv would be introduced into the wild through jags, we all know the origins, downfalls and benefits jag blood can have. but IMO the possibility of Opmv and other diseases being introduced is far greater then a jag or jag sibs breeding into our natives.


 
I would really like to nominate this for the biggest "BS" post of the week , a basic understanding of the morph wouldn't go a stray or diseases for that matter


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## Minka (May 1, 2011)

impulse reptiles said:


> id be more concerned about the possibility that Opmv would be introduced into the wild through jags, we all know the origins, downfalls and benefits jag blood can have. but IMO the possibility of Opmv and other diseases being introduced is far greater then a jag or jag sibs breeding into our natives.


 
Do you have conclusive evidence that OPMV does not exist naturally in Australian snakes?


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## jinjajoe (May 1, 2011)

Exactly move on these threads are using up space....... would I get rid of Jags if I could ???? Yep probably....... do I own some ??? absolutely !!!!!!!!




kupper said:


> nothing like a good jag bashing .... some of you need to move on and realise regardless of how many threads you put up , no matter how many times you remind people of the many fictional variables that may occur the snakes are here to stay ......
> 
> 
> any responsible person with half a brain would not let a $1500-2500 snake get out or go missing in the first place !
> ...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 1, 2011)

kupper said:


> nothing like a good jag bashing .... some of you need to move on and realise regardless of how many threads you put up , no matter how many times you remind people of the many fictional variables that may occur the snakes are here to stay ......
> 
> 
> any responsible person with half a brain would not let a $1500-2500 snake get out or go missing in the first place !
> ...


 
This from somebody that has actually had first hand experience with Neuro in Jags! I love how you lot of Jag haters try to make us out like the bad guys! It really is amusing how you use your knowledge attained from forums to try and bash real science into the ground.


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## wranga (May 1, 2011)

this thread had run its cause at the end of 4 pages. another 2 pages and nothing else has come up to answer the original question of the thread except for personal attacks. time this thread was locked


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## kupper (May 1, 2011)

jinjajoe said:


> Exactly move on these threads are using up space....... would I get rid of Jags if I could ???? Yep probably....... do I own some ??? absolutely !!!!!!!!


 
:lol:


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## D3pro (May 1, 2011)

kupper said:


> nothing like a good jag bashing .... some of you need to move on and realise regardless of how many threads you put up , no matter how many times you remind people of the many fictional variables that may occur the snakes are here to stay ......
> 
> 
> any responsible person with half a brain would not let a $1500-2500 snake get out or go missing in the first place !
> ...


 
winning


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