# Taking wild caught animals Part 54 (split from other topic)



## Guest (Jan 26, 2005)

PilbaraPythons said:


> If I drum up enough interest in them I will export them in a bulk shipment to friends in all states for distribution and wear the export fee myself.



More like: "if i drum enough interest in them, i will 
*steal* them in bulk from their natural habitat, torture them by putting them in a cage for the remainder of their lives and make money off suckers in other states for distribution of an animal that wont last 2 years (or the freight) and i will pay CALM the necessary hush fee's myself" 


As you can tell, i dont like the sale of wild caught animals.

Before you comment, all my animals are captive bred, so they dont know any different. 

Cheers, Alan. :shock:


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## angelrose (Jan 26, 2005)

You sure know how to open a can of worms dont you Alan..... i dont think anyones intention is to torture these animals.....

:shock: Angel


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2005)

No torture perse in human eyes, but for a wild animal roaming the natural habitat then to be put in a box for the remainder of their lives is torture in "*my opinon*"

And saying that they only hunt and migrate within a small distance in their lives (ie: 2 metres, 200 metres, or 2 klm's) is plain crapola! 

Cheers again, Alan.


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## womas4me (Jan 26, 2005)

Teamsherman, i think you need a bucket to catch all the crap you talk day in, day out.
You are another one of these clowns with very little knowledge of herpetofauna. You make yourself feel good by bagging wild caught, but you would be more than happy to own a wild animal's offspring, after someone else has put in the time and effort getting them to breed, hatch the eggs and ensure that the little herps have a good kick start in life.
You have little to no field knowldge, all you have is what you have read or seen on TV. As i have said before, it's always those that know very little who speak the loudest about wild caught animals.


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## ad (Jan 26, 2005)

Thanks for highlighting your lack of reptile knowledge for us TeamSherman,
if you actually come up with one of your own opinions and can validate it with any reasonable arguement - no - you arent really capable are you.
Thank god you can hide behind your keyboard and accuse people of stealing and torturing animals - you certainly wouldnt be man enough to do it face to face - totally unfounded and worth and apology. The thread wasnt asking for your views on wc animals, however ignorant they may be.


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## angelrose (Jan 26, 2005)

All captive animals came from the wild originally, they weren't grown in test tubes... i think your being very unfair Alan and i think womas and ad have you down pat, im sorry im not usually one to berate a fellow in public but after your outburst, you deserve it, sorry mate..

Angel


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2005)

I'll apologise to Pilbarapythons for bringing my opinion into his thread...Sorry mate..but to you and womas4me, i see no good reason for me to apologise so there wont be one. 

Womas4me, whatever knowledge i have is enough for me to base my opinion on, i admit and have before, im no herp expert doctor type person, and neither are you 2, but as i said, i dont like seeing or hearing about animals being taken from the wild to make us feel good about being the superior race. 

Im not going to reply to this thread, if you want to reply to me or anyone else out there wants to call me names and harass me because of my "opinion and views" feel free to pm me or start a new thread.


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## OuZo (Jan 26, 2005)

sherm i think you're forgetting that these animals arent yet domesticated. i know i'm not very experienced myself but the way i see it, even captive bred animals (reptiles) are essentially "wild" and you could release one into the wild and it would probably survive, assuming it's put into an environment where it would naturally occur. then compare that to your domestic pet cat or dog who gets served up their food on a plate and would quite possibly cark it if you let it loose to fend for itself. and before you say it i know that there are a lot of stray cats out there but i'm assuming most of them were born stray...plus you havent seen my cat lol 

i must say, i have used the "it's captive bred so it doesnt know any better" argument before, but that's because i dont yet have myself a better defense for keeping them lol.


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## womas4me (Jan 26, 2005)

> More like: "if i drum enough interest in them, i will
> steal them in bulk from their natural habitat, torture them by putting them in a cage for the remainder of their lives and make money off suckers in other states for distribution of an animal that wont last 2 years (or the freight) and i will pay CALM the necessary hush fee's myself"



Teamsherman, it is the way in which you have implied that the wild caught animals are somehow mistreated that annoys me, not your personal views on the subject. You have implied that collecting herpetofauna is illegal, those we sell animals too are suckers, and that the export fee is hush money. As far as freight is concerned, do you have proof that animals that are wild caught are dying whilst being freighted? I have sent animals all over Australia and not one has died from it, and the buyers have all been very happy with their purchase, and most have contacted us for repeat business.
If i accused you of torture, stealing, sucking in customers, and somehow offering money ( bribe ) to keep what your doing quiet would you not take it as a personal attack.
It isn't what you say, it's how you say it.


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## Greebo (Jan 26, 2005)

&lt;Warning to members. Personal attacks and name calling are not permitted. It would be a shame to lose good members>


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## ether (Jan 26, 2005)

I have to agree with Alan on this one. Taking animals out of the wild and selling them is wrong. That is just my opinion. 



> All captive animals came from the wild originally, they weren't grown in test tubes...



Yes true but we now have a huge range of animals that are now captive bred and there is no reason to take any more from the wild. And as teamsherman said captive bred animals have never known anything else. Whilst animals that have been taken from the wild are used to their natural habitat.

Taking animals out of the wild Is mistreating them..

Regards Alex


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## NoOne (Jan 26, 2005)

This is a pointless arguement, neither side is going to get anything from it.

Fact is alot of reptiles are being illegally taken from the wild and while i'm against reptiles being taken from the wild for various reasons at least you WA guys are doing it legally and the reptiles are being looked after. It going to happen like it or not and if it's legal then it can be controlled to a point.


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## playwell (Jan 26, 2005)

Uhmm, I think i'll leave this one alone and enjoy my day off.

!! Have fun !!


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2005)

Thanks mods for moving this to somewhere different, i do feel slack for putting it in pilbarapythons thread, so again PP, sorry for the inconvenience in your thread. 

Womas4me, yeah, i could have worded it differently and in no way was i saying that you or PP do any of the things i stated. That was just a play-on-words i used as an example to get my opinion across. 

P.s, i know the irony of me replying when i said i wouldnt, but that was so i didnt impose on PP's thread again.


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## Simon_Archibald (Jan 26, 2005)

Alan,
This is among some of your dumbest statements and arguments that you seem to feel the need to impose on everyone.

Funny how you've added what could almost be called a "disclaimer" at the end of your first post saying that all your animals are captive-bred. These animals are descendants of animals that were taken from the wild. You've paid a guy, who paid a guy, who took them from the wild. EVERY single reptile in captivity is either wild-caught or a descendant of animals that were wild-caught. EVERY single reptile keeper in the world has contributed to the wild taking of animals, because they have paid for the privilege of keeping these animals in our homes.

You support the system of wild-taking animals Alan. You have purchased animals that are originally from the wild. You pay money to go to zoos who themselves *often* gain permission to take wild animals for conservation, breeding, education purposes. I'd bet that quite a lot of the exotic reptiles in Australia came from the wild also. Either by the suppliers being untruthful about the origins of the animal, or some animals that are seized by customs.

You clearly don't hate the idea of taking wild animals Alan, as you've supported the system a fair bit to date, and you will continue to do so.

Simon Archibald


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## Switch (Jan 26, 2005)

Its a lovely day isnt it..........


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2005)

Sherms some time down the track ile get some pygmypythons off of pilbarra or womas4me,or some other species thats on the short list or non existant in captivity.I will breedm and you can then buym (if ile sellm) cause they will then be captive bred. Dont worry pilbarra,womas4me some people never get the piture,and they want to be moderaters. God starve the lizards alan,give us a rest its Australia day! not strange day! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Hickson (Jan 27, 2005)

PilbaraPythons said:


> If I drum up enough interest in them I will export them in a bulk shipment to friends in all states for distribution and wear the export fee myself.





Teamsherman said:


> More like: "if i drum enough interest in them, i will
> *steal* them in bulk from their natural habitat, torture them by putting them in a cage for the remainder of their lives and make money off suckers in other states for distribution of an animal that wont last 2 years (or the freight) and i will pay CALM the necessary hush fee's myself"



Sherm - that is way,way out of line. :x :evil: 



teamsherman said:


> Womas4me, yeah, i could have worded it differently and in no way was i saying that you or PP do any of the things i stated.



Bollocks, Sherm. You took PP's words about something he plans on doing, and paraphrased them to suggest thievery, poaching, mistreatment of animals, shonky business practices, and corruption/bribery. Despite your subsequent explanation, it sure as hell looks like you were saying that PP does all those things. It was slanderous and defamatory.

Incidentally, they don't want you to apologise for your views on wildcaught animals. They want you to apologise for what they (and many others) consider to be a personal attack upon their integrity.

And in my opinion, they most certainly deserve it.

You might want to think about the signature I've been using for the past couple of months.

:evil:

Hix


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

:twisted: Yes hix i agree with you on this one.It was a pretty cowardly attack made by alan against the two members from WA.Good way ta LOSE VALUED members to. :twisted: :twisted: Just run the poor buggers into the ground! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## angelrose (Jan 27, 2005)

*RE: Taking wild caught animals Part 54 (split from other top*

Here here Hix!

Angel♥


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

Hix said:


> Incidentally, they don't want you to apologise for your views on wildcaught animals. They want you to apologise for what they (and many others) consider to be a personal attack upon their integrity.
> 
> And in my opinion, they most certainly deserve it.
> 
> Hix



Pilbarapythons, 
For the words of yours i twisted, my sincere apologies if i offended you or anyone else involved in the business of wild collection. Once again i have stumbled to get the right wording and this time it seems i did stuff them greatly. 

Again, im sorry for what i have written and shall keep my head out of your business no matter what my feelings and opinions on the matter. 

Alan.


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## Simon_Archibald (Jan 27, 2005)

Alan your "feelings and opinions" are not only hypocritical, but they are uneducated, unrealistic and idiotic.

Simon Archibald


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

Simon, 
What i feel on the subject is just that, its what i feel. There is nothing idiotic, unrealistic or uneducated about my feelings. 

Hypocritical? as i said, all of my animals are captive bred and have been for many many years. I understand that their ancestry was taken from the wild for captive breeding, but MY animals werent. Thats why i bought them. 

As for this subject, those that dont agree with me can (insert rude direction here) as im now over having to explain myself. 

Dont you people understand the two words "my opinion" or the other two words "my feelings"??? 

Maybe you should look it up, cause then you will realise that my feelings and opinions never have, and never will have any effect on the subject anyway. So whats the big deal, i dont like something, so i stated it. 

:evil:


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## womas4me (Jan 27, 2005)

It was never your opinion but rather how you worded it that has worked people up.

The disclaimer that a CB animal has never known any different therefore it is acceptable to cage them to me doesnt stack up. My blue tongues which i bred from wildcaught parents behave exactly the same way as the wild caught one's do. My stimsons that i bred from wild caught parents behave exactly the same as the wild caught ones. Same with the knob tails i have bred, beardeds i have bred.
I have limited proof of this, but asfar as i m concerned reptiles are a basic animal and provided their hirachy of needs are fulfilled will thrive in the wild or captivity.


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## peterescue (Jan 27, 2005)

The problem with this type of debate is that it is often based on personal opinion, misinformation, emotion and in my case the desire to just nut it out but i dont think anyone is capable on this or any other list. It alsways descends into rather immature and infantile name calling.


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## womas4me (Jan 27, 2005)

Oldfella, i hope we get down the track to pygmy's very soon. They are a very beautiful little python and i cant wait to work with them and see little pygmy heads popping out of eggs.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

womas4me said:


> It was never your opinion but rather how you worded it that has worked people up.



I felt once the way i worded it had been argued and thrown at me, i was then being labeled different items for my opinion being "wrong". But like i said, its all been said and done, im very over it. 

And i have apologised for the initial words i wrote. 

I think the only person now that has the right to personally argue with me is Pilbarapythons. 

But i think the rest of the thread should go to the civil debate on the main topic, or just not go at all. 

Cheers, Alan.


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## sxereturn (Jan 27, 2005)

How is it torture, Alan? Did you ask the animals? As most have said, you have no proof of what you're saying...your feelings are absolute crap, you have zero knowledge of taking animals from the wild...sure, you might have some misinformed moral dilemna with it, but you have nothing to back it up...


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## hey_im_sam (Jan 27, 2005)

Sorry alan, but I gotta agree with pretty much everything's been said against you. I won't bother repeating it all, it's been said. Hixy summed it up well. 


> But i think the rest of the thread should go to the civil debate on the main topic, or just not go at all.


That'd be great for you, wouldn't it... 
It is interesting though, that as soon as the thread turns so far against you that you realise what a hole you're in and how many people are against you, you're suddenly "over it". You have nothing to back up your unfounded statements, nothing to debate or argue with that has ANY substance, so you try to back out of it. Opinions that weakly supported really should never be voiced in the first place.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

I dont need to back up what i feel on the subject Jonno. 

Sam, 
No hole here mate. Take a free outdoorsie type person and stick them in solitary confinement for the rest of thier lives. Fine, they are being fed well and have a warm blanket. But im sure they would still find it torture. 


I dont like the collection of wild animals for immediate sale. Big eefffen woop! I never have liked it, and never will like it. Thats the way it is. No amount of put downs or argumentative facts thrown my way is gonna make me change my mind, aswell as no matter how many "internet" handles i upset with the subject. 

Cheers, Alan.


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## sxereturn (Jan 27, 2005)

Teamsherman said:


> I dont need to back up what i feel on the subject Jonno.



Only because you have nothing to back it up with...


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## westaussie (Jan 27, 2005)

Teamsherman said:


> I think the only person now that has the right to personally argue with me is Pilbarapythons.
> .



Wrong !
I think that your unreasonable opinions were aimed at Pilbara Pythons but effect all of us in W.A who are licenced to collect reptiles.

You publicly attacked the practice of collecting without any research into the subject that you are so passionate about and then claim that we dont have the right to argue. 

I was the first licenced Taker in W.A &amp; now have one of the largest collections of wild-caught reptiles in this state. Alot of my animals are that well adjusted that you would believe they were captive-bred. 
I am the director of the largest reptile company in Perth and have more than 15 years experience in the field with wild herps._ Alot of what you read in your books is thanks to many of us that have spent time in the field &amp; have shared our experiences to further the knowledge of herpetology_ 
I think that I have earned the right to argue on this subject, as I found your opinions offensive.

Has anyone ever accused you of torture &amp; cruelty without even looking at your animals or your husbandry ? and then to do it publicly ! and then not to expect an argument ? 

It always seem to be the people with little field knowledge that are so outwardly against wild caught animals. If you are so blatantly against this practice please stop the hypocrisy and give up your pet reptiles, because you know where they came from and it wasnt a laborotory.

While your up there on your moral high ground, please stop eating our native fish, and no more wood furniture as these were once homes for reptiles (even pine plantations were once prime habitats for reptiles).
stop driving ( if you could see the amount of reptiles killed on our roads every day) and how many reptiles were lost clearing the land for your house or your shopping center ? 

Please get your head out of the sand &amp; do a little research before you attack somebody publicly. Better still, pack up your swag , go bush for a week or two and see these animals out there before we lose them to feral animals and habitat destruction - the real threat to out wildlife.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 27, 2005)

Sorry for the late response to this thread, we've just got back from the reptile shed after testing our new torture racks on a couple of suspicious looking Knob-tailed geckoes. The little buggers screamed and howled but they would not give up any of the required information regarding their breeding habits so we are left with no choice but to sell them for huge profits.


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## sxereturn (Jan 27, 2005)

You're name shouldn't be Pilbara Pythons, but Pol Pot!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Sorry for the late response to this thread, we've just got back from the reptile shed after testing our new torture racks on a couple of suspicious looking Knob-tailed geckoes. The little buggers screamed and howled but they would not give up any of the required information regarding their breeding habits so we are left with no choice but to sell them for huge profits.



LOL Touche!

Im glad you could respond without calling me certain things and saw the slightly lighter side to it. 

Cheers, Alan.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 27, 2005)

No worries Alan everybody in this great country of ours is entitled to their views and opinions thats what makes it such a bloody good place to live. three cheers for democracy eh!


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## Parko (Jan 27, 2005)

If you look at Switch's avatar you will see a wild animal that i could confidently keep in captivity and ensure it's happiness.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

*Taking wild caught animals Part 54(split from other topic)*

:lol: :lol: You cracked me up pilbara! :lol: :lol: Good ta see ya still got a sense of humour after the severe slagging you received.Womas4me my father usedta say,"You cant teach an idiot" i know what he means now, its just a waste of time. :wink: :wink:


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## Slateman (Jan 27, 2005)

I think that Teamsherman do have the picture now.
My opinion is that we should leave him along and be more friendly. I am sure that he learned his lesson and understand that there is larger picture regarding wild catching. Not ewerything what is happening regarding colecting from nature is always black and white, there are reason sometimes for it.

Best example of it would be saving California condors by catching them all to preserve the specie.
Americans did excelent job and I hope they will have succes.


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## Hickson (Jan 27, 2005)

Slateman said:


> Best example of it would be saving California condors by catching them all to preserve the specie.
> Americans did excelent job and I hope they will have succes.



I've actually seen the Californian Condor facility at the San Diego Wild Animal where, at one time, they had half the world population of Cal. Condors. There was less than 30 when they were all removed from the wild, but their numbers have increased significantly since then (currently a world total of almost 250) and more than 100 have been released into the wild, where they have started breeding again.



Hix


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2005)

*Taking wild caught animals Part 54(split from other post)*

 Your right slatey.  Ime goin ta contract womas4me and pilbara for a mission,should they accept it.To go to cape york and bing me back heaps, and heaps and heaps of green tree pythons.They will be supplied free of charge as per (enterprise bargaining agreement 27.1.05) with cyanide capsules if capture by the QNPWS is iminenent.


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## craig23 (Jan 27, 2005)

Teamsherman, what are your veiws on the reptiles in the wild that are going to die possably become extinct due to cane toads, cats, foxes and introduced disease? are they worth collecting and keeping in captivity?

Secondly, do you realy think a snake or lizard knows the difference between the wild and captivity? do you think they feel emotion? do you think they enjoy strolls in the long grass? If i was a snake i would prefer perfect weather and temps, perfect food supply and not one single predator out to eat me. But you know what, if i was a snake I probably wouldnt have the mental capacity to even comprehend what I just said. Am i making my point? You might like to think snakes enjoy life better in the wild, but the fact is that almost all research and common scence says that they wouldnt know the difference if they wanted to. You are implying that a snake or lizard can think and feel the way we do, well they cant, they cant think much at all actually, they dont even recognise they exist as an individual, infact most animals dont.
As far as most modern science is conserned a snake sees its box as a safe warm secure place with a good food supply, it is exactly what that snake would be seeking if it were in the wild anyway. 
Your views are not based on science and animal husbandry, they are based on emotional opinion, assuming a snake interacts with its environment the way a human does.
You might like to see snakes in the wild, but that does not have the snakes interest at heart either, it just makes you feel good. All captive animals come from the wild if not bred distantly from wild stock. So you if you have some crusade against collecting dont keep the captive bred animals collectors worked so hard to breed for you in the first place.

As metioned by others I dont agree with wild collecting in most instances for immediate sale in massive unsustanable numbers, but that just doesnt happen anyway. Many more animals are killed on the road and by ferral animals in a day that are totally lost. 
I have gone spotting along a road and seen half a dozen adders or so and when returning 20 minutes later 4 dead adders that werent there before. If i had collected them when i went past nothing would have been lost.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 27, 2005)

*RE: Taking wild caught animals Part 54(split from other post*

Oldfella
QNPWS already think that I have been up the cape stealing green pythons. I know this for fact as I pulled the freedom of information on them and it was amazing what they released. It seems I was catching green pythons while living in W.A and my girl friend was smuggling snakes out of W.A while still living in Innisfail. Where they get this crap from is beyond me.


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## playwell (Jan 27, 2005)

*RE: Taking wild caught animals Part 54(split from other post*

I'll have a green one. HANGON!!! I'm joking, im going now its ok, see ya


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## westaussie (Jan 27, 2005)

Another good example of this is the western swamp turtle. This is the worlds rarest turtle & in the late eighties was down to about 30 animals left in the wildjust north of perth. Some were then taken from the wild and a breeding program was started at the Perth Zoo. This animal has done well since in captivity and the zoo has a healthy number of these turtles and many have been returned back to the wild.


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## dobermanmick (Jan 27, 2005)

Hix said:


> Slateman said:
> 
> 
> > Best example of it would be saving California condors by catching them all to preserve the specie.
> ...


That sounds like it would be a great place to visit ! How many zoos have you been to Now Hix ?


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## Hickson (Jan 27, 2005)

Off the top of my head, 19 zoos and fauna parks in Australia, 4 in New Zealand, 21 in Europe, 22 in the USA/Canada, and one each in Belize, Zimbabwe and Guam. (Some of them were disgusting little menageries that needed to be closed down, but I've included them because I visited them). I may have forgotten one or two. I haven't included National Parks or wild areas (like Hwange in Zimbabwe and the Cockscomb in Belize).



Hix


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## rodentrancher (Jan 28, 2005)

Seeing as the original Discussion was locked, I will just say, that I don't agree with Black, white, or brindle being able to take any Reptiles from the Wild. and being able to make a profit from it! And I don't want to get into any discussion about colour of our skin or how long we have been here in Australia either! End of Discussion. xxx Chezza


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## womas4me (Jan 28, 2005)

Is collecting the issue or the money made from it. Most people IMO are more at odds with he supposed ' profit ' than the actual collection of the animal.


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## peterescue (Jan 28, 2005)

Not taking any sides in this. Just a point.
There is some confusion between taking animals from the wild into a breeding program to stop the extinction of a species and the taking for the pet trade. Dont try and justify it as anything other than the latter. Everyone on this list is involved in the pet trade in some form or another. Dont pretend it is anything else. Some of us may have other aspects to it but they all point back to the keeping of reptiles as pets in the end.
As to "not being able to teach an idiot". I disagree but idiots do make poor teachers.


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## indicus (Jan 28, 2005)

Quote:[ As mentioned by others i dont agree with wild collecting in most instances for immediate sale in massive unsustanable numbers, but that just doesnt happen anyway. Many more animals are killed on the road and by ferral animals in a day that are totally lost.
I have gone spotting along a road and seen half a dozen adders or so and 
when returning 20 minutes later 4 dead adders that werent there before]

"I have seen the repeat of this time and time again:QLD, NT, WA, and totally agree with the above statement, the impact by collecting is bugger- all to the amount thats killed each day by cars, trucks........As 'Peterscue', mentioned its for the pet trade (Our benefit) in one way or another.....Its not that stimpsons, blackheads womas bluetounges are rare and need saving, however theres alot thats killed each day that would be better collected to kick there numbers of in the pet trade, and later when theres deemed enough, fair enough........I've seen the Geckos that Pilbara Pythons posted on; over there, and when you dont see anything else out, their dead everywhere.......common so why not allow numbers to be collected? I do believe those that are collecting for the 'pet trade', in W.A are trying to offer good quality stock, if they werent they wouldnt last long............word gets around."


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