# Elapid Handling (poll)



## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

Hey all, i've had some mixed feedback as to wether or not i'm a fool for handling elapids without propper training.

please add own personal experiences.


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## hugsta (Nov 29, 2004)

Anybody that handles vens without any experience is asking to be bitten IMO. If you want to handle vens, then get somebody that has experience in handling them to show you the ropes. Learn from others, there is no need to be a hero these days. There are plenty of ppl on here that would help you I am sure.

Just remember, without the proper equipment with you went out herping, all it takes is a bite from one of our nasties to give you a near death experience and that is if they don't kill you. Don't take them for ganted. JMO

I am yet to handle a taipan, but can tell you eastern browns are not something you play with.


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## NoOne (Nov 29, 2004)

I think the 2 options are a bit broad, i never had anyone to show me how it was done and i think i was lucky not to be bitten as a kid.
It's a risk you take, no you don't always need training but i wouldn't recommend anyone try it without some kind of training.

Plus our venemous snakes vary alot and some are easier to handle than others.

I have to agree hugsta...everytime i come across a brown snake....they make me shiver, they are the only snake i'e had a close call with...they are just so full on. :shock: :shock: 
My fav would have to be red bellies and death adders, adders in particular as if they are kept at a safe distance theres no real reason you should get bitten.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

RBB's, are they a good thing to practice on? i have access to many wild ones and can play with them alot for practice if needed..


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## Dicco (Nov 29, 2004)

Dude, even though Red Bellies are a placid snake I still wouldn't trust a wild one as they can still be unpredictable, but they would be the preferable snake to practice with. And I would definitely not play with browns without eperience.


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## Magpie (Nov 29, 2004)

I'd have to say the proper equipment is far more important than training.
Go try pick a brown up without a hook and you're asking for trouble.


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## NoOne (Nov 29, 2004)

Exactly Mags.

Liber rbbs may not be as venemous as others and also not as agro but wild snakes are wild snakes, don't think they won't bite, some can be very agro, i've found big wild rbbs to be that way.
I think good equipment and a good brain will go a long way, don't try handling something you don't feel comfortable with, as Hugsta said don't try and be a hero and don't think you will never get bitten.


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## Greebo (Nov 29, 2004)

> ? i have access to many wild ones and can play with them alot for practice if needed..


 Snakes are not toys to be played with. There is no room for trial and error. If you are picking up brown snakes by yourself, with no else around if you get bitten, well it's been nice knowing you.
This reminds me about a 15yr old boy over in WA who loved his snakes. He tried handling a wild Tiger snake and it tagged him. They found his body 80 metres from where he was bitten.


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## Springherp (Nov 29, 2004)

> RBB's, are they a good thing to practice on? i have access to many wild ones and can play with them alot for practice if needed..



First of all you need to change your attitude, black snakes may be slower, less aggressive and have far less potent venom than browns, but they can still do damage. All elapids need to be treated with respect... they're not toys.
You need to learn how to identify certain elapid species and understand their venoms and the effects that you would be likely to experience from a bite of that species. You also need to understand the correct medical procedure in the event you are bitten.
Handling venomous snakes may be easy but that certainly does'nt mean you should go in gung-ho without any knowledge.


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## Samma3l (Nov 29, 2004)

> He tried handling a wild Tiger snake and it tagged him.



youre it!


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## dobermanmick (Nov 29, 2004)

As I said in the other thread you really should have someone with you Just in case !


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## peterescue (Nov 29, 2004)

So far everyone has offered good sound advice so lets see if I can keep up the standard.
Red bellies are a different snake to browns and they to taipans.
Being adept at handling a particular species will give you an edge, That edge is confidence and that may also be your undoing. 
I had(have) so many bad habits from doing it on my own as last friday will testify. 
If you can spend time with someone else it can only be a benefit.


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## nuthn2do (Nov 29, 2004)

> please add own personal experiences


Yep


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## craig (Nov 29, 2004)

i handled my first elapid a few months ago and have handled a few since then. i have been keeping snakes for 6 year and in no way concider my self as an experienced handler. this is why i am ashamed to say i never had any training. 

just remember one bite from a rbb may not kill you but the more you are exposed to anti venom the greater risk you are at of have a allergic reaction!!!


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## diamond_python (Nov 29, 2004)

Mate, you are nuts to be going out and handling wild elapids without anyone with you? JMO. I would love to give this ago and believe me, there are so many tigers and browns around here, I am guaranteed to find as many as I want - but in saying this I would never go and catch one. You need to be with someone, have some sort of first aid knowledge (and equipment with you) and know how to apply a torniquet. JMO Just be careful and if you don't make it, nice knowing you and can I have first dibs on your currrent reptile collection??? :wink: :lol:


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## Magpie (Nov 29, 2004)

> You need to be with someone, have some sort of first aid knowledge (and equipment with you) and know how to apply a torniquet



I hope that's a joke.


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## diamond_python (Nov 29, 2004)

As I said JMO. I have never handled elapids and have no knowledge on them. If Liberated is a few kms away from home and is bitten, what do you suggest he does then?? Not being sarcastic, I am seriously interested. I can only go by what I have read in books, the web etc...


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## diamond_python (Nov 29, 2004)

You must always prepare for the worst case scenario. JMO


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## Alexahnder (Nov 29, 2004)

> and know how to apply a torniquet.



This has to be one of the worst bits of advice i've heard in ages!! 

I agree with saying that you should at least know basic first aid and have an understanding of venom properties. 

Recently I was bitten by a swamp snake and I must say that this has taught me one thing. Don't underestimate any elapid, no matter how small or inoffensive it may appear.

Another thing that is important to remember is that snakes can have massive mood swings. Never loose your concentraction when dealing with elapids.

Alex


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## diamond_python (Nov 29, 2004)

What would you suggest other than a tourniquet these days?? That used to be standard information when I was younger... Thats how long ago it has been since I have read about elapids and snake bites....


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## NoOne (Nov 29, 2004)

Pressure bandages!

That is very common knowledge....and has been drummed into just about everyone for god knows how long.


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## Alexahnder (Nov 29, 2004)

Do a google search..................................


































































........................and you should find the answer to be a pressure bandage.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

YEah when i go out i ALWAYS take with me 2 pressure bandages, a knife, lighter, camera, mobile phone, and my trusty hook. well thanks for the imput guys, its made me rethink my "smartness". will give them a rest for a while (doesn't mean i can't take pics of wild ones).


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## diamond_python (Nov 29, 2004)

ooooooooopppppppppssssssssssss.....  I did mean pressure bandages.. Don't know why I used the word torniquet.....   Hey we are all human and can make mistakes. I knew what I was saying but was using the wrong words.... lol 



> doesn't mean i can't take pics of wild ones).




I agree. I might start doing this soon just for the experience.. Make sure you post the pics...


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## dobermanmick (Nov 29, 2004)

Just make sure you post the pics !! or if you dont make it have somone else do it for you :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

lol, well i'm going tomorrow morning so i'm hoping to c lots of stuff.


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## Jas (Nov 29, 2004)

Hi all.
Craig made mention of allergic reaction to anti-venoms. In addition to this any foreign protein introduced into the body can cause life threatening allergic reactions in many people. Snake venoms are just that, a highly varied blend of proteins with very specific functions within an organism. Anaphylaxis, the most severe form of allergic reaction could quite possibly kill you long before the venom has managed to travel through the body to cause any serious damage at all. Death typically occurs very swiftly as a result of anaphylactic shock, your talking a matter of minutes. You probably wouldn't have finished applying your pressure bandage!! Personally In addition to my bandages I keep an Epipen (Auto-injecting adrenaline) on me whenever I'm handling any venomous snake. I'm talking both in the field removing snakes or at home dealing with my own animals. Nobody wants to receive a bite from a venomous snake but mistakes do happen even to the most experienced handlers so you need to be sufficiently prepared.
Cheers, 
Jason.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

How does Auto-injecting adrenaline help?


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## Jas (Nov 29, 2004)

Hi Lib..
A person going into anaphylactic shock could exhibit symptoms such as difficulty in breathing, low blood pressure, nausea, vomiting etc. Adrenaline relaxes the lungs to ease breathing, helps to stregthen the heart beat to increase blood pressure. Its these two, breathing and blood pressure which are essentially the killers in a severe reaction. How long (hypothetically) can you hold your breath or your brain be starved of oxygen before you were to crash?
Does that answer your question?
Jason.


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## ackie (Nov 29, 2004)

no one has really shown me how to handle elapids, but i never tried to handle rbbs first off. My first elapids i mucked around with were yellow faced whips wen i was in year 4. RBBS' may not be aggresive if approached buy try grabbing ones tail wen its been sitting in the sun for 2 hours. RBBS can come over their body fairly easily so probably not the best snakes to start off handling. Its been sed already, snakes r not toys, no room for mistakes, the main thing is to just have a level of respect for the snake u r handling and dont go grab the first elapid that shows up unless u know u can do so successfully. Saying this, dont get the impressing that i think i can handle any snake, an eastern brown still makes me extremely nervous. Just respect is all.


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## ozherpconservation (Nov 29, 2004)

> First of all you need to change your attitude, black snakes may be slower, less aggressive and have far less potent venom than browns, but they can still do damage. All elapids need to be treated with respect... they're not toys.
> You need to learn how to identify certain elapid species and understand their venoms and the effects that you would be likely to experience from a bite of that species. You also need to understand the correct medical procedure in the event you are bitten.
> Handling venomous snakes may be easy but that certainly does'nt mean you should go in gung-ho without any knowledge.



Very well said Springherp! Couldn't of put it better myself!


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 29, 2004)

Here's me and one of my favourites. Handling elapids is definately something you should be shown and then after watching it being done should be attempted only when you are confident enough to pull it off successfully.

P.S. Anyone know what species this is?


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## Sdaji (Nov 29, 2004)

Most of the experienced herps I've spoken to started out as barefoot kids with no training of any form at all. Often it was despite orders by their parents not to do so, and so they either did it alone or with same aged friends. It's interesting to see the increasing popularity in being trained as a form of learning, I actually find it quite strange for some reason.

Everyone learns in their own way. I know that I wouldn't have been a trainable person when I was starting out; that is to say, I was a little **** who wouldn't listen to anyone who told me what to do, and also everyone's methods vary and what works for one person won't necessarily work for someone else. My first experience with elapids was in my mid teens with wild tigers, I first freehandled an elapid during a public reptile show, after asking the demonstrator nicely he let me freehandle several deadly snakes (talk about hideous irresponsibility!!! :shock: if I didn't have a personal policy of not bad mouthing individuals if I can help it I would love to tell you who this was). This, along with a lot of what he said, really warped me and the next time I was in the field I was freehandling a large tiger, I was in my mid teens, no bandage, just me, one non reptile oriented friend and my head full of stupidity and a nasty hangover from hitting the bottle too hard the night before. Ironically it was about 50 metres from that spot where several years and a few hundred snakes from all over the country later was finally envenomated in a serious way - by a large tiger, perhaps even the same one. I'd been handling that snake for about 10 minutes before it decided enough was enough.

I'd say the poll doesn't really apply to people evenly (which is why I didn't vote). Some people are idiots and go through adolesence with an attitude of trying anything because they know they're invincible. Of course, many of them die in car crashes or other accidents of their own production, but some somehow survive despite not really deserving to. These people can't be reasoned with until/unless they grow out of it. On the other hand, some people are sensible, deserve their lives and will probably either independantly learn very carefully and others will only learn under the tuition of someone with experience. Most people wouldn't be swayed one way or the other by anyone else's advice. Each to their own and good luck to all!

Before anyone yells at me, I'll add the typical disclaimer "this is all just my opinion based on nothing more than my own meandering experience, I could be wrong on some of it, yada yada etc etc".


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## womas4me (Nov 29, 2004)

I reckon everyone has their own style they develop from a few common basics. I dont find any wrong or right way, but either you get bitten or you dont, regardless of how you do it.

OK plibaras, what is it? Were you overseas at the time?


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## Greebo (Nov 29, 2004)

> Most of the experienced herps I've spoken to started out as barefoot kids with no training of any form at all.


 I guess it would be difficult to speak to the ones that weren't so lucky and died from being bitten.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 29, 2004)

Now come on womas that would be telling. As for a wrong way of handling, I think I found one hence my manky thumb. Yes I was overseas at the time.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 29, 2004)

I agree that lots of people started handling elapids as barefoot kids, myself included however times have changed and I couldn't imagine sending my young son or daughter (if I have some oneday) out to catch browns or taipans. Even though I did just that but at 18 years of age. I also purchased my first semi-auto .22 calibre rifle from the sports section at K-mart and 500 rounds of ammo all that was required was some form of ID stating you were 18. I first obtained a licence to keep elapids at the tender age of 14 years. Ah yes Queensland was a good place to grow up.

Adrian


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## Sdaji (Nov 29, 2004)

> Most of the experienced herps I've spoken to started out as barefoot kids with no training of any form at all.
> 
> 
> I guess it would be difficult to speak to the ones that weren't so lucky and died from being bitten.



Absolutely, some probably did. I'm just telling it like it is, not saying it's good or bad. It's not so long ago that the only way to learn was to go out and grab a wild snake.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2004)

Jas said:


> Hi Lib..
> A person going into anaphylactic shock could exhibit symptoms such as difficulty in breathing, low blood pressure, nausea, vomiting etc. Adrenaline relaxes the lungs to ease breathing, helps to stregthen the heart beat to increase blood pressure. Its these two, breathing and blood pressure which are essentially the killers in a severe reaction. How long (hypothetically) can you hold your breath or your brain be starved of oxygen before you were to crash?
> Does that answer your question?
> Jason.



yeah mate that answers my qu well. where would u get this stuff from?


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## keelow (Nov 30, 2004)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Here's me and one of my favourites. Handling elapids is definately something you should be shown and then after watching it being done should be attempted only when you are confident enough to pull it off successfully.
> 
> P.S. Anyone know what species this is?




Looks to me like either a Red Spitting Cobra...Naja pallida
But i've seen a Mozambique Spitting Cobra too that look like that, without so much black under the hood.

My guess is a Red....

Nez


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## Linus (Nov 30, 2004)

Alexhander,

what was the effect of the swamp snake bite ? I used to catch these as a kid..those and golden crowned snakes. I never was bitten and was always careful but thought there venom was pretty mild. Always wondered what effect the bite would have.


cheers


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 30, 2004)

No its not a red spitting cobra. Try working it out from this view.


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## nuthn2do (Nov 30, 2004)

Rapid breathing and heartrate, nausea, dizziness, numbness/tingling in the fingers and around the lips - hyperventilation? anaphylaxis? envenomation? a combination of 2 or all 3? Do you want to whip out the epipen and give yourself a big dose of adrenaline every 30 mins just in case? 

Will you be coherent enough to make these desicions, do you know the proper procedures that need to be followed at the hospital (are they equipped) before that compression bandage is removed? How about a mate that can drop everything an get to the hospital and ensure your treatment is correct if you're unconcious?
A lot more to it than a jigger and bag, this is what will utimately save your life.


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## Springherp (Nov 30, 2004)

Is it a king? (ophiophagus hannah)


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 30, 2004)

Bingo! Yes it is a King Cobra. This photo was taken at Jurong Reptile Park in Singapore where I worked for 2 years in the late nineties.

Adrian Hogg


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 30, 2004)

Here's another good King cobra shot.

Adrian


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## Springherp (Nov 30, 2004)

Man are you tough! :roll:


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2004)

nice pics though. i bet its one of those stuffed ones :roll:


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## soulweaver (Nov 30, 2004)

IMO it can depend on the person. I think that if someone has had years of experience with say pythons, and had to deal with aggressive snakes in that range, then the adaption to vens should be something that can be self taught.........

as for voting i was thinking 50/50 so i got my cat to vote


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## Fuscus (Nov 30, 2004)

snake empathy. If you don't have a good idea how a particular snake will react in a particular situation then snake handling is not for you.
Also if you tend to get things wrong the first couple of times then skydiving is not for you.


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## Sdaji (Nov 30, 2004)

> Also if you tend to get things wrong the first couple of times then skydiving is not for you.



Argh!!! You said the S word!!! :shock: (well, one of them, others include SCUBA, snake and snog  ) 
*Sdaji excitement inducing words!!! :shock: * 
Who wants to come skydiving on Saturday morning? The drop zone is near the BBQ!!! (Tooradin) You can watch me jump out and then jump out after me, then we can land and go to the meet!!! Huh huh? Any takers?


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## Greebo (Nov 30, 2004)

This is the story that I was reminded of. I think it is very relevant to this thread.

" A snake-lover's tragic mistake

Most people hate or fear snakes. Fourteen year old Tony Pattison loved them and felt entirely comfortable in their presence. He even kept a non-venemous carpet python as a pet.
Nicknamed "Snakeman" by his school friends, the Western Australian boy had been on field trips with herpetologists and done some work experience at a reptile centre. A passion for snakes ran in the family too-his father was a member of a volunteer group licensed by the government to collect snakes from bushland.
* A school assignment goes wrong*
Perhaps Tony's self-assurance led him to be complacent that November day in 1998 as he followed a black tiger snake through a paddock, videotaping the reptile for a school assignment. He certainly felt confident enough to try and pick up the tiger. But as he bent down to do so, it attacked him, biting the teenager's left hand twice. The venom acted with frightening speed and despite medical help, Tony died in Royal Perth Hospital just 36 hours later.
His work-experience boss, a long-time snake handler, commented: "It doesn't matter how experienced you are, you only have to make one mistake with a snake. You deal with Tiger snakes in a very respectful way and don't take any chances because thay're a lot quicker than you are."


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## keelow (Nov 30, 2004)

Adrian, my mistake.

Props on the handling skills... i saw a king cobra up close and personal in Thailand last year magnificent animals.

Try that with a Bamboo Viper... i'll be really impressed

Nez


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 30, 2004)

I know what you mean. I kept bamboo vipers and I too would be impressed if someone were to handle those nasty blighters in that way.


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## insectovor (Nov 30, 2004)

Hard subject this one, In my opinion all you need is common sense and don't handle venomous snakes for the thrill. Handle them because of your profession or your genuine interest in their biology and captive reproduction. Just remember that most people that get bitten are people with years of experience and often they loose the sense of danger or get too comfortable with the snakes. Another one is showing off to mates/family they make it look like it is all easy. Drunk people have been bitten while at parties showing off their "tame" red belly black snake. You can teach your self but investigate the biology of venomous snakes and make sure you are comfortable with handling non venemous snakes. Ask experienced snake keepers for lessons in snake handling or attend some courses. But my main lesson would be .........Common sense.........and be aware ...they are venemous


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## AGAMIDAE (Dec 1, 2004)

thats a hard one....all reptiles should be handled correctly firstly, but specially vems should extra care be taken, I am not for or against free handling vems, its up to the individual to make that choice, even when handling with safe methods (with snake hooks etc) keepers sometime still recieve bites. Keeping vens is always a risk and before you dive into keeping them, think very carefully about the dangers. Also if you wish to keep vems, its wise to put in place emergancy policies, educate peolpe you live with what they should know about snake bite (first aid) who they should call etc etc, you may not get much time after the bite. I love vems as with all reptiles but extra care must be taken.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

hey marc when u get back u wanna teach me a few things?


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## AGAMIDAE (Dec 1, 2004)

Liberated said:


> hey marc when u get back u wanna teach me a few things?


lesson One "NO"...LOL


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## AGAMIDAE (Dec 1, 2004)

PilbaraPythons said:


> I know what you mean. I kept bamboo vipers and I too would be impressed if someone were to handle those nasty blighters in that way.




Adrian...did you live in Brisbane some time ago?


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 1, 2004)

I most certainly did.


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## AGAMIDAE (Dec 1, 2004)

I think I met you many years ago at one of the QRAC meeting I was vice pres back them.


Liberated just joking mate I can show you some stuff if you like but it will not be my fault if you get nailed...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

*catching*



AGAMIDAE said:


> Liberated said:
> 
> 
> > hey marc when u get back u wanna teach me a few things?
> ...




?? u don't want to teach me?

night man


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## AGAMIDAE (Dec 1, 2004)

*RE: catching*



Liberated said:


> AGAMIDAE said:
> 
> 
> > Liberated said:
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

*RE: catching*

yeah man, sweet. i'l get my parents to sign something to say ur not to blame or whateva. cheers.

night all

cheers
pete


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## angelrose (Dec 1, 2004)

*RE: catching*

lol im glad im not your parents lol


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## westaussie (Dec 1, 2004)

Nice pics Adrian. I would love to work with cobras but have never had the chance, Nice placid elapids. At least there is enough herp in W.A to keep me goin for a while yet. Here is a pic of a nice south-west tiger &amp; me a few years ago.


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## womas4me (Dec 1, 2004)

Good move to lose the mullet. How long ago was that? Nice tiger too


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

well someone got hit in the head when they were young :shock:


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## Dicco (Dec 1, 2004)

Nice tiger, was he yours?


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## Slateman (Dec 1, 2004)

Westi I do have better pictures of you with tigers. You told me not to show them. :wink:


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## Greebo (Dec 1, 2004)

> well someone got hit in the head when they were young


 so that's your excuse?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

nah, it was taken before i had a chance. i maintain i was born this way.


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## instar (Dec 1, 2004)

Greebo said:


> > ? i have access to many wild ones and can play with them alot for practice if needed..
> 
> 
> Snakes are not toys to be played with. There is no room for trial and error. If you are picking up brown snakes by yourself, with no else around if you get bitten, well it's been nice knowing you.
> This reminds me about a 15yr old boy over in WA who loved his snakes. He tried handling a wild Tiger snake and it tagged him. They found his body 80 metres from where he was bitten.



How did they know (geographically) where he was bitten? Did he kill the tiger? Or scrawl a message in the dirt "just been bitten here, goin for help"?
:lol: ................... :shock: Sorry, poor kid.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

instar, that was cheap :wink: , though a valid question


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