# feeding live foods



## junglelove (Jul 15, 2014)

hi guys, 
so we all know some times we have to make the decision to feed a live rodent to save the life of a reptile. (I have never done it my self) I have always thought it was legal but just not ethical. 

I agree 100% if it will save the reptiles life then it should be done. 

Is there any where that states it is absolutely illegal in NSW to feed live rodents??

This is from the RSPCA AUSTRALIA web sight.

The legality of feeding live mice to reptiles depends upon the relevant State/Territory legislation and relevant code of practice. In some States, the code recommends that reptiles should not be fed live food for their own protection and all vertebrate-eating reptiles must be encouraged to take dead food. In others it is recommended that: live vertebrates are not used as a food unless they are required absolutely as a food source by a species or individual animal; live rodents should not be left in a reptile enclosure overnight or for an extended period; and wild-caught rodents should not be used. However, these codes of practice are not enforceable by law and are therefore recommendations only. 

Please no negative opinions on live feeding Im just looking for documentation

Cheers


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## butters (Jul 15, 2014)

I haven't found a snake yet that won't take dead food. If a snake won't accept a dead food item look to husbandry practices first IMO before thinking you need to go to live feeding.
I have Furina and Burton's ( ok not a snake) that feed from forceps and they are two that many would suggest need live food. It's all in how it is presented and the conditions they are kept in IMO.

As for regulations you would have to look at the code of practice in queensland.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry you asked for NSW, can't help there. In queensland I know it is in the code of practice accessed from the DERM website.


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## junglelove (Jul 15, 2014)

Wildlife carers mainly have this problem with rehabilitating snakes


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## PythonLegs (Jul 15, 2014)

Possibly with elapids/colubrids, but even wild pythons will opportunistically feed on roadkill.
Most problem feeders are just the result of problem owners.


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## coastals (Jul 16, 2014)

None of the common kept species in Australia need to be live fed, It all comes down to inexperience and bad husbandry.


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## -Peter (Jul 16, 2014)

Simple answer to your question is no.


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## wokka (Jul 16, 2014)

Hopefully "we" do things for ethical reasons not just legal reasons. There is not reason to feed live food. As has been stated before if you are having difficulty getting animals to feed look at environmental and husbandary perameters. Nine times out of ten it is temperature or nervous stress from lack of privacy for the animal. Luckily we have a window of many months to sort the problems as snakes dont need to be fed very often!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2014)

junglelove said:


> Wildlife carers mainly have this problem with rehabilitating snakes



The problem for carers is that the are often compelled to feed live rodents by the organisation they serve. Apparently snakes might "forget" how to deal with live food whilst being rehabilitated... absolutely ridiculous of course...

Jamie


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## saximus (Jul 16, 2014)

To directly answer the original question, the NSW CoP references the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979 which states:

*24 Certain defences*(1) In any proceedings for an offence against this Part or the regulations in
respect of an animal, the person accused of the offence is not guilty of
the offence if the person satisfies the court that the act or omission in
respect of which the proceedings are being taken was done, authorised
to be done or omitted to be done by that person:​(f) for the purpose of feeding a predatory animal lawfully kept by the
person if:​(i) the act concerned was the release of live prey for the
predatory animal, and
(ii) the diet of the predatory animal included animals of the
kind released, and
(iii) the person believed on reasonable grounds that the feeding
of live prey to the predatory animal was necessary for the
predatory animal’s survival because the predatory animal
would not eat a dead animal or meat from a dead animal.​
So no it isn’t illegal in NSW. Ethical reasons are another matter but the usual APS responses on that will all come out if this thread goes on long enough.


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## -Peter (Jul 16, 2014)

There is no requirement by wildlife rehab organisations in NSW to feed live vertebrates to animals in care. I have been rehabbing very succesfully now for many years and the one time I resorted to a live feed i changed my mind and the last minute because i realised it was just laziness on my part. 
I needed to find out why it wasn't feeding.


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## Gaboon (Jul 16, 2014)

Rodents have an instict to attack snakes. 

i know you were just asking about laws. but, Rodents just know that a snake is an enemy or a predator, it's in their dna. so, when you do put a live rodent in with a snake its EXTREMLY likely that it will attack. if you have it, write your common sence down on a piece of paper and thats the only documentation you need. The rodents instincts are legitiment genetic documentation. if you have a snake thats not feeding, look over the basics and if everything is fine (correct temps etc) and it still doesn't eat, then take the snake to the vet. you will end up with a severly injured (very possible it will be past the point of no return.) if you feed live and youl be back on here with tears in your eyes. it's happend before many times, in sydney alone. iv seen photos, people have told me they've done it and things have gone bad straight from the horses mouth, so no friend of a friend kinda thing. i relise you 'asked' for laws. but what about the laws of common sence. they don't exist but they should. a situation with a dead snake would inforce that 'law' of common sence. live pinkies wouldn't be a problem but if you get a snake on live chicks or pinkies it would possibly give you other issues, just put them on freshly killed as soon as you can. of course if you have a very powerful coastal that doesn't mess about with its food, well thats another story. but theirs still a risk. just like any animal you get shy, non violent individuals then you have other extremly violent individules that are relentless and will go insane, that goes for dogs, cats, rats, apes, humans, bears, lions and pretty much anything, then you have other individuals that wouldn't hurt a fly. but you don't want to even take the risk messing with an insane individual, so i would recommend never feeding live. having bred rats iv seen the indivals you don't want to mess with. (The rats i mean, not the buyers.)


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## Marty75 (Jul 16, 2014)

As a relative newby to herpetology I have never contemplated feeding live food to my snake but just for the purpose of clarifying, do the laws only apply to rodents or does it apply to all live food (possibly the differentiating factor is vertebrates vs invertebrates?), i.e. a common garden skink that someone may catch in their back yard and feed to their reptile, or a live gold fish that someone might feed to their snake (saw a link on this site a while back of someone doing that). Do lizards eat dead mealworms and roaches or only live ones?

Just interested in where the feeding live food laws apply to.

Marty


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## Stuart (Jul 16, 2014)

Marty, the "supposed" laws apply to mammels only however after having a bit of a look around, the only laws covering live feed that I can find are in the NT where live feeding elapids is not allowed. All other information I have found points to it being discouraged however not illegal.


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## GBWhite (Jul 16, 2014)

junglelove said:


> Wildlife carers mainly have this problem with rehabilitating snakes



That's because the vast majority of wildlife carers don't have a clue when it comes to the correct and proven methods for attempting to feed "rescued" snakes fresh killed or thawed rodents.

As PythonLegs states "Most problem feeders are just the result of problem owners".

Wild snakes do recognise and consume dead food items. There have been many recorded incidents where this has been observed.

First off: To my knowledge apart from the NT it is not illegal in any other state or territory to feed live rodents to snakes. 

Secondly: I'm of the belief that, in all Australian states and territories unless seriously injured, all "rescued" reptiles should be released almost immediately after collection or at least within a very short period of time.

Last of all: From first hand experience over many, many years, if a "rescued" snake, for whatever reason, is not in a suitable condition to be released and has to be maintained in a captive situation. Provided it is left alone in the correct environment and located in an isolated area (or if this is not available covered so it is not disturbed) with a sufficient heat source, it will readily take fresh killed rodents. They will most certainly then eventually adjust to recognise thawed food items.

So in fact there is no need what so ever to risk injury to a snake by offering live food. Nor is it ethical to subject a live rodent to the trauma of being placed in with a live predator.

If carers are not competent or knowledgeable in the methods used to feed fresh killed and/or thawed rodents to "rescued" snakes then they shouldn't be certified as capable of rehabilitating same.

Cheers,

George.

George.


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## Ninabuddha (Jul 16, 2014)

Wildlife management for all states and Territories say it's only illegal to fed live if the reptile being fed is at an expo or being demonstrated to a group


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## -Peter (Jul 17, 2014)

Wake up to yourself George. Most Wildlife groups have moved on, how about you do the same and stop living in the past. Your not saying anything new in what you believe and wildlife groups have adopted best practices for some time now. I know my group does.


GBWhite said:


> That's because the vast majority of wildlife carers don't have a clue when it comes to the correct and proven methods for attempting to feed "rescued" snakes fresh killed or thawed rodents.
> 
> As PythonLegs states "Most problem feeders are just the result of problem owners".
> 
> ...


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## GBWhite (Jul 17, 2014)

News to me Peter and I can assure you I'm not living in the past. I still frequently get inquiries from carers from the NSW Mid North Coast and NSW New England Tablelands who have trouble getting rescued snakes to feed on thawed rodents.

Cheers.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jul 17, 2014)

Just for interest, condition 13 of a Pet Herpetofauna Keeper's Licence in Western Australia states: "No live vertebrate animals are to be used as food for pet herepetofauna held under this licence"

I cannot agree that it is necessarily "extremely" likely for a live rodent to a attack snake that it is placed. Having watched live mice and rats with pythons, until the snake actually has a go them, the supposed "DNA" instincts of the snake being a predator are more often absent then anything else. A well known herper in Sydney, some 45 yeears ago now, used to feed his 2 m Diamond on live rats and was in the habit of leaving them in over night. It was about 18 months into this process that he came unstuck and a rat took several pieces out of the snakes body. The injuries were nasty by healed well. Needless to say, future feeds underwent cervical dislocation prior to being fed to the snake. We were all learning by trial and error back then.

Blue


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## Lawra (Jul 23, 2014)

Ugh I wish people would get informed before replying to questions. 

It's not illegal. Proof:


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## PythonLegs (Jul 23, 2014)

That's not 'proof' of anything, Lawra..you even highlighted the loophole. It would be easy to argue livefeeding is not 'essential' for the animals survival.
'Ugh'.


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## montysrainbow (Jul 23, 2014)

Im not sure of it being legal or not but its not something i would personally do. I know of people that do....they have suggested i do but i prefer frozen not fresh. I dont want to risk my babies copping a nasty bite from a rat and if they did i wouldnt blame the rat poor buggers trying to stay alive!


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## Lawra (Jul 27, 2014)

PythonLegs said:


> That's not 'proof' of anything, Lawra..you even highlighted the loophole. It would be easy to argue livefeeding is not 'essential' for the animals survival.
> 'Ugh'.



Reason for your edit is "spelleng" lmao.

It may be 'easy to argue' that point, however it is just as 'easy to argue' for the other side of things also.


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## Amynickid (Jul 30, 2014)

there is no snake that wont take dead food. a good keeper can entice a snake with a a dead rodent through practice. good husbandry and good feeding skills. make it look interesting. make the dead animal run around


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## Cockney_Red (Jul 30, 2014)

Hate all this have to! crap about live feeding, the only reason people live feed, is to get a kick from it! "MOST" reptile keepers, keep them for their beauty. "MOST" reptile keepers, are animal lovers, and do not want! to see a food item put through that situation, let alone risk their animal to damage.


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## Ninabuddha (Jul 30, 2014)

i dont know if this will help but i looked up the ehp (qld) and this is what has come up.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jul 30, 2014)

Every time this topic comes up it gets the same response.
Op.......I do not believe it to be illegal in any state to feed live prey.
BUT..........it is totally unethical and may lead to prosecution unless you can prove beyond reason that the action was necessary. 
The idea of feeding live prey has been met with the hostility it deserves.

Mediators can we please close this thread


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## hulloosenator (Jul 30, 2014)

Amynickid said:


> there is no snake that wont take dead food. a good keeper can entice a snake with a a dead rodent through practice. good husbandry and good feeding skills. make it look interesting. make the dead animal run around



not true...... there is always an exception to the rule , and if you havnt come across it yet , then lookout ! 
but if you are smart .... keep it to yourself and nobody will ever know . ok ? morally ok or not .... legally ok or not ...... if only you know about it ....it is ok.


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