# macleay river turtle



## Dom$ (Aug 19, 2007)

*1.how big does the macleay river turtle start and how big is it when fully grown?*
*2.how big will my tank have to be?*
*3.are they easy to keep?*
*4.how long will he live?*
*5.what do they eat? *
*6.are they good pets?*
*7.are they a good 1st turtle?*
*8.will he get affectionate?*
*9.how much do they cost?*
*10.who breeds them in N.S.W?*
*11.what will my tank need?*
*12.will i need a big filter?*
*13.do they have a good temperament?*
*14.can you put a male and female together?*
*15.how often do you have to take them out in the sun and how long?*
*16. do you need to take them out into the sun if you have a UV light over the tank?*
*17.how much does a UV light cost?*
*18.will he eat my fish?*
*19.can you please send me some pictures of them as babies, middle and grown up?*
*20.are they the smallest turtle you can get in australia?*
*21.i am pretty sure that you can't get a tortoise here but i would like to no for sure,so can we get tortoise in australia?*
*thank you for the help!*


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## -Peter (Aug 19, 2007)

Dom$ said:


> *1.how big does the macleay river turtle start and how big is it when fully grown?*
> *140mm*
> *2.how big will my tank have to be?*
> *1200mm min*
> ...


*hope this helps*


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## da_donkey (Aug 19, 2007)

Well that was easy.....:lol:

Great answer Peter.


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## mickousley (Aug 19, 2007)

number 20 i am sure there the smallest check John canns fresh water turtles of Australia
Mick


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## markars (Aug 19, 2007)

I had a pair of macleays and i had them since hatchlings- of all the turtles that i have kept they are the ones that stay the smallest for the longest. I also belive that they are the smallest hatchling size- they are smaller than a two cent peice when they come out. They are a small turtle compared to a broard shell but as adults they are still best kept in an outside enclosure(pond). My male is about 170 mm now and he is about 7 years- the female is about 200 mm and is the same age. All turtles become tame as they recognise you as a food source and go nuts every time someone goes near the fishtank- but they never become "affectionate" If you have fish in the tank you will most probably not have them once you put turtles in the tank- There are some exceptions(murray cod seem to go well as long as they have plenty of cover and are not big enough to eat your turtle) You can keep males and females together. They are easy to keep as long as you keep the cage clean and keep the turtle fed on a good diet and provide for all their needs. As for the cage - a three foot fish tank is what i use to keep two or three hatchling in and you can keep them in that until the are about 120 mm in shell size( if there are three in there about 90- 100 mm) I use a reptisun uv fluro in the cage for a light and i use a 100 watt uv basking light above the log- I always have two types of land in the cage- one is a log that sticks out with the basking light above it and the other is a perspex landing covered in supergrass. tI think that natural sunlight is good for all reptiles and for my hatchlings i have a wine barrell on the balcony and it is set up as the "holiday cage" it is stocked with fish and weeds for them to eat. i put them in it on week ends and if i am home in the afternoons when it is light still. A uv tube costs about twenty dollars if you order them through a lighting shop of they cost an arm and a leg if you buy them from a pet/ reptile store. Not many people keep them that i know of and the hatchlings( if any) that come from my old pair are spoken for( i am taking half the clutch) but pm expansa1 on this site as he may know some one or go to the horses mouth and call john cann- if anyone knows where to get them from, he will. They should cost between 60- 100 dollars each. Try getting a goodbook on australian turtles- any of john canns are good or any of those small books called "keeping short necked turtles" as most hatchling short necks have the same basic needs.
A tip- stay well clear of turtle foodfrom pet shops and either make your own or do as i mostly do and spend twenty minutes once a week down at the local creek catchng fish and water prawns and the like and also a proportion of insects in the diet is a good idea.


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## markars (Aug 19, 2007)

I will scan some photos tomoro and will ask my mate to put up some new pictures of them as adults


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## hornet (Aug 19, 2007)

smaller than a 2c piece? that would be less than 1.5cm, i dont think thats right


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## mickousley (Aug 19, 2007)

Freshwater turtles
Info sheet
By Michael Mather

Introduction
There are two main types of freshwater turtles in Australia the Long necks and the short neckturles. There is no such turtle as the penny turtle, they were just hatchlings of the Mary river turtle (see the story in John Canns Fresh water turtles of Australia)
Australia has many Described turtles but there are still a few up north that have not been described to date, there are many different sub species in Emedura macquarii
and different carapace lengths with the smallest being the Macleay River turtle ( E.m dharra ) CL 185mm the smallest of all freshwater turtles in Australia 
Types of turtles
Only a few of the most commonly kept in NSW length and price guide for hatchlings to adults, length in carapace length CL
Longneck turtle /snake neck turtle ( Chelodina longicollis) CL 250mm $50 >$100
Northern long neck turtle ( Chelodina rugosa ) CL 360mm $80 > $150
Oblong turtle (chelodina oblonga) CL 310 $400 >$500
Saw shell turtle ( Elseya latisternum ) CL 280mm $80 > $150
Macquarie turtle / short neck turtle ( Emydura macquarii )CL 185mm to 340mm 
$50 >$150
Pig nose Turtle ( Carettochelys insculpta ) CL 650mm $1500 > $2000
Food
Hatchlings will feed on Black worms and shrimp live or frozen.
Adults will feed on insect’s chicken meat, fish, and mice 
Short necks will also eat some vegetables .
Mixing fish and vegetables , prawn meat finely diced & calcium powder in a plastic bag lay flat so it is about 4mm thick then using a wooded skewer lay the skewer on the bag and press down in rows as to make small squares and freeze ,
then you can just snap off what you need
Never leave uneaten food in the tank as it will foul the water.
Supplements
Dusting as it is know food dusted with a calcium or vitamin powder is a must for good healthy hatchlings every second feed


Lighting & Heat
One of the most important features of an indoor enclosure
Is a UVB full spectrum light (this is not a heat source)
But provides UVB rays or wavelengths similar to that of the sun, which will help against Metabolic Bone Disease and help with growth
of a healthy Hatchling
it must be placed no more than 30cm from base of enclosure
as the further away the weaker the wavelength is
Turtles require another form of heat source,
A aquarium heater works well 26' >28"
if using a basking light it should be control by a thermostat , 
You can never under estimate the true value of natural sunlight.
Recommended reading
Australian Freshwater Turtles
By John Cann
Keeping long neck turtles & keeping short neck turtles
By Darren Green
Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity
By John Weigel
A Complete Guide to Reptiles of Australia 
By Gerry swan & Steve Wilson


Photos By John Cann


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## markars (Aug 19, 2007)

close to! mine were that small when they came out. i will see what photos i can dig up! though the memory may be dusty. none the less they are pretty small even for hatchlings- much smaller than anything else i have bred.


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## mickousley (Aug 19, 2007)

sorry pics did load


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## hornet (Aug 19, 2007)

only hathling i have kept have been broad shelled turts and mary river turt. Smallest i have seen was about 2-3cm, kreffts i think it was


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## -Peter (Aug 19, 2007)

"Hatchlings emerge after 53 days at approximately 28degrees c and the young measure about 28 x 23 mm".
Cann, John 1998 Australian Freshwater Turtles. Beaumont Publishing. pp 120-122.


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## Strange1 (Aug 20, 2007)

Dom$ said:


> *1.how big does the macleay river turtle start and how big is it when fully grown?*
> My Male is around 150 and my Female is around 168mm
> *2.how big will my tank have to be?*
> I keep mine in a 4x2x2 tank and also have to add a land area
> ...


Indeed!!


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## Eastern Snake Neck (Aug 20, 2007)

O.K. At the risk of re-igniting several old debates, arguments and disputes, here is my two cents on the topic.

The Macleay River Turtle (Emydura macquarii dharra) is neither a species nor a sub species. It is a form of Emydura macquarii macquarii (Murray River Turtle) that is found in the Macleay River. These specimens do not grow as large as some other Emydura macquarii macquarii. 

Emydura macquarii binjing (Clarence River Turtle), Emydura macquarii dharuk (Sydney Basin Turtle), Emydura macquarii gunabarra (Hunter River Turtle ), Emydura macquarii signata (Brisbane River Turtle), the Storm King Dam Turtle and the Bellinger River Turtle are all Emydura macquarii macquarii (Murray River Turtle).

Over time, most turtle keepers have accepted this. The number of turtle keepers in NSW that still hold onto the Emydura macquarii dharra name has dwindled to four. The number of NSW turtle keepers that use the Emydura macquarii macquarii name is over 600. Beware of anybody trying to sell Emydura macquarii dharra to you. Whilst they may in fact be from the Macleay River, they are actually Emydura macquarii macquarii, not Emydura macquarii dharra.


I do not fully agree with some of what has been stated in this thread.

Hatchlings will indeed feed on black worms and shrimp live or frozen and adults will feed on insects, chicken meat, fish, and mice. However, not all of these foods are part of a turtle's natural diet. Feeding these foods may actually be harmful. It is important to remember that turtle's are opportunistic feeders. But, just because they eat the food offered to them does not make it good or nutritious for them.

Turtles eat underwater. Anything that lives in freshwater is potentially part of a turtle's natural diet. Stick with freshwater plants, along with freshwater fish, freshwater yabbies, freshwater prawns, freshwater snails and tadpoles. Try to avoid foods that are not found in freshwater, such as saltwater fish, saltwater prawns, chickens and mice.

Emydura macquarii macquarii are cold water turtles, and are better kept around 20-22ºC. They are generally not found in waters as warm as 26-28ºC (these temperature are better suited to tropical species).

Regards,
Michael.


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## mickydrippin (Aug 20, 2007)

what a waist of John canns Time describing them,when there are others pretending to know what there on about , living on others work
C u Latta over and out Goth to now


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## markars (Aug 20, 2007)

> at the risk of re-igniting old debates


 
I still reckon turtles eat a lot of terrestrial insects! lol.....

And i reckon that the cann man knows his stuff.... but that is the purpose of a forum- for people to share their own opinions and to openly debate others opinions!


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## markars (Aug 20, 2007)

> C u Latta over and out Goth to now


 
What the hell does this mean?/?????


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## Eastern Snake Neck (Aug 20, 2007)

Ahh markars, no, not the insect debate again!!! lol...
I agree. They do eat insects and John Cann certainly knows his stuff. That's why he is regarded as a turtle expert.
In my opinion, John Cann hasn't wasted his time. I think his work and knowledge is outstanding.


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## markars (Aug 20, 2007)

dont for get the carrion debate!!lol
whether people agree wth the descriptions and re classifications or not- you gotta admire and respect the work that the cann man has put in!! it is amazing- most of it i assume would be at great personal expense, cause i am yet to meet a turtle enthusiast who has made a million or two out of his hobby or have not heard of many huge government grants paid out.


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## Strange1 (Aug 21, 2007)

Im not wading into a war as I am a newbie here but they are listed on the license with a separate species number aswell. Emydura macquarii dharra T2031


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## Eastern Snake Neck (Aug 21, 2007)

It is true, they were once classified as a separate species. But, several years ago, they were reclassified. From what I've read, John Cann was involved at the time, but somebody on this forum should probably confirm that with John.
Like markars, I too admire and respect John Cann. I also know that scientific research continues to move forward. 
A few years back, the Chelodina group was also reclassified. It was split into Chelodina and Macrochelodina.
The NSW Species list may need an update. The latest one I could find on the www is three years old. Perhaps an updated version has been published. The 2004 list does not include Elseya albagula.
Chelodina longicollis is a species that takes on various forms and characteristics, depending on where it is found. Colour, size and shape are all variables.
Emydura macquarii macquarii takes on various forms and characteristics, depending on where it is found.
I've never see two identical dogs, but they're all Canis lupus familiaris.
Humans come in various forms as well. But we're all Homo sapiens.


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## scorps (Aug 21, 2007)

I DO NOT CARE WHAT ANY ONE SAYS TURTLES EAT INSECTS AND WHO EVER DEBATES THE TOPIC ARE FOOLS WE FRESH WATER FISH FOR BASS NON STOP WITH BLACK CRICKETS BEING A VERY GOOD BAIT FOR THEM AND WE ALWAYS HAVE THE OCASIONAL FRESH WATER TURTLE GRAB THE BAIT (they never get hooked though) but yes they do eat insects


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## hornet (Aug 21, 2007)

they will eat them when they fall into the water but certainly not a bulk of the diet


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## markars (Aug 21, 2007)

i am with scorps- i have seen to many river animals who have evolved especially to eat insects. i have been on riversavd seen the amont of insects that fall into rivers and i rekon that it is too good a source of food to not represnt a significant proportion of their diet.


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## hornet (Aug 21, 2007)

the only river inhabitants i know are really specialised to eat terrestrial inverts would be archer fish. Alot of others will eat them when they fall into the water but those species consume aquatic inverts, fish and plants as a bulk of the diet


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## scorps (Aug 21, 2007)

thank you hornet and yes with the archers they eat both insect and fish ( we have cought them on lures before)


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## scorps (Aug 21, 2007)

oh one more thing i no archer fish and bass live abo****ly no where near each other in the wild i used to live in nsw (hence the bass ) and am now in norht qld which is full of archers


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## JasonL (Aug 21, 2007)

Turtles will eat anything that end up in the water, most are true scavengers. The amount of insect a turtle will eat depends on local of the river ect, time of year, age and size of the turtle, and what else is in the river / pond. Hatchling turtle would generally eat a higher percentage of aquatic insects than adults, still having snorkelled in a few river and dams around the place, most decent sized river have a huge supply of yabbies, crays and shimp than anything else.


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## markars (Aug 21, 2007)

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodi...ume2a/17-fauna-2a-chelonia-naturalhistory.pdf
I hope this link works but it is just one study that i found that shows that turtles stomack content contain by volume various percentages of terrestrial insects- some of them up to 25%. (seems that is a significant proportion)- seems by this study that the percentage is less and less as the turtles get bigger!


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## scorps (Aug 21, 2007)

markars said:


> http://www.environment.gov.au/biodi...ume2a/17-fauna-2a-chelonia-naturalhistory.pdf
> I hope this link works but it is just one study that i found that shows that turtles stomack content contain by volume various percentages of terrestrial insects- some of them up to 25%. (seems that is a significant proportion)- seems by this study that the percentage is less and less as the turtles get bigger!


yeah id say a bub turtle would be more iterested in a bug floating in the water than a big adult which would prefer a fish


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## Eastern Snake Neck (Aug 21, 2007)

There's no debate about whether or not turtles eat insects. The fact is that they do eat insects. 
My opinion (supported by the scientific research I have read) is that insects make up a very small percentage of a turtle's natural diet. If a terrestrial insect lands on water, an opportunistic turtle will grab it and eat it. If a turtle finds an aquatic insect, it will eat it.
But, just because a turtle consumes a particular type of food does not mean that type of food is a normal part of its diet. Nor does it mean that it is good for the turtle.
I've seen turtles that have swallowed fish hooks baited with bread. Now, I don't believe that bread covered fish hooks are a part of a turtle's natural diet, but I do know that they will eat them. Even though they are bad for them.
I think that it is important for turtle keepers to try to replicate the turtle's natural diet as closely as they can. I often hear that people feed a particular food to a turtle 'because the turtle loves it.' But all too often, that is the only food the turtle is being offered. So without access to any alternative foods, of course the turtle will eat what it is offered. 
In my opinion, some people believe that seeing a turtle eat a particular type of food means that type of food must be good for the turtle. I do not share that belief.
Regards,
Michael.


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## Strange1 (Aug 21, 2007)

Are people thinking that insect = crickets? Because they all seem to be forgetting about water beetles, boatsmen, mayfly larve etc not to mention water skimmers and spider that all spend most/all of the time in or on the water. I know that when I introduced my turtles to the pond they promptly ate ever tadpole, boatsman and snail in the place.

They appear to eat more met as hatchies and more plants as adults. Just provide a good variety of foods and you cant go wrong... regardless of what they are "meant" to eat.
I mean do we eat things that we wouldnt eat in a natural diet?


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## Eastern Snake Neck (Aug 21, 2007)

I know I'm not thinking insect=cricket. I agree that turtles would eat all of those foods you mentioned, and that they would all be a part of a turtle's natural diet.
I also agree a good variety of foods is important, provided they are foods that a turtle can process. For example, red meat, saltwater fish and pellets would be a variety. Whilst they may not pose a great danger to the turtle's health in the short term, this would not be the case in the long term.


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## hornet (Aug 22, 2007)

if you notice i did say terrestrial insects i.e. roaches, crickets, beetles. They will eat them but as i said, would not make a bulk of the diet for most species


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## -Peter (Aug 22, 2007)

I beg to differ. I was involved in the removal of a colony of Chelodina longicollis from the gasometer tanks at Mortlake some years back. Talking to the former manager of the adjacent amnonia factory he recalled them being in the at least 60 years earlier. While there were no hatchlings there were multi generational specimens.
I had some 25 turtles in holding ponds. These ponds would get a floating scum made up of the undigested chitinous residue of many types of insects. While not conclusive it does indicate that these turtles lived on a diet high in flying invertebrates.


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## JasonL (Aug 22, 2007)

If thats all they have, thats all they will eat. Turtles will eat anything they can, in a river full of yabbies, they will eat mostly yabbies ect. They will eat whatever is the most plentiful in the river, pond, dam, sewage pond that they are living in. I have found two living in a seepage pond, right on the cliff face in the royal, the pond was about 2m x 4m with a max depth of 40cm, had lots of algae, some limited insect life and passing froglets, I checked them over the space of 3 years and found them every time, though they were smallish in size, untill it dryed up. I have some pics somewhere, I'll try and find.


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## -Peter (Aug 22, 2007)

exactly Jason, whatever is abundant will more than likely make up the bulk of the diet.


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## Tristis (Aug 22, 2007)

my turtles love mice and pinkys


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## Strange1 (Dec 8, 2007)

I know this is an old thread but one of my Longicollis just stalked and sniped a garden skink that was basking at the edge of his pond!


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## Tristis (Dec 8, 2007)

cool


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## norris (Dec 8, 2007)

I have a picture in a book of an adult turtle, that had just been court, regurgitating a snake.


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