# Pipping or not pipping Boyd's Forest Dragon eggs.....advice soughted.



## reptalica (Apr 18, 2015)

Hi all,

Over the past couple of months my female Boyd's laid a number of eggs in the enclosure substrate. We had no idea she was gravid and it was only when we went to clean out their enclosure that we noticed some healthy and some not so healthy eggs. Of the heathy ones I still have two sitting in the incubator on vermiculite suspended over water. Thus far we have had one egg hatch (approx a week ago). One healthy bub down.

Problem now is the second egg looks absolutely cherry ripe to hatch but it has been approx a week since the first hatchy emerged.

I'm just seeking advice from those who have had experience with dragon eggs and in particular Boyd's Dragons as to whether this next egg should be pipped or not as by the looks of it she looks well and truly ready.

My hesitation is that I have heard NOT to pip dragon eggs.

Thanks all.


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## mummabear (Apr 18, 2015)

Being a week apart is probably not a good sign. But do not touch, healthy dragons will hatch on their own. You want healthy strong animals. What temps did your incubator get to? To get all strong healthy hatchlings it is not advisable to really go above 24. I like 22. Mid to late 20's especially in the early development can create deformed hatchlings.
If its healthy and you pip too early it most likely will died.


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## reptalica (Apr 18, 2015)

Thanks mummabear. I know the incubator works well as I used it for my last clutch of Central Netted Dragon eggs and I had them set at around 30.5 to 31. However the Boyd's I have had set to 26 (having read many an article on this species). I have had one successful hatchy thus far. The egg itself still seems robust. My thinking was it should have hatched by now. I could back off temps but if Ive already had one successful hatchy I might leave as is.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 18, 2015)

As suggested, I definitely wouldn't pip them (or it...) For future clutches, I have this suggestion, and it's worked for me every time when I suspect a female is ready to lay... Have only a fairly shallow layer of substrate in the main enclosure, but in at least two corners, place a tub (I used 5L plastic tubs from the reject shop) pretty much filled (100mm+) with your chosen egg-laying/incubating mix (I used good clean, slightly damp garden soil and some compost material - nothing too fancy, and something the females like to lay in). Top these containers with a different coloured soil/sand layer, so you can see by any disturbance if there has been a hole dug - you may even be able to see the eggs through the side or bottom. Your female/s will naturally prefer to lay in the deeper soil in the tubs.

When you suspect eggs have been laid (and the girls often get a bit nest-defensive at this time) you can CAREFULLY check to see if you can find eggs. If you do, then simply place a lid on the container (with a few SMALL) holes and place the whole thing in the incubator at the appropriate temp. No need to disturb the eggs at all. If you can see condensation on the sides of the box or the lid during the incubation time (55-70 days if I recall), your substrate is fine - just check by this method that it doesn't dry out too much as incubation progresses. You can carefully scratch the soil away and check the eggs without disturbing them any time during incubation - healthy eggs will expand considerably as they develop.

Incubation media don't need to be sterile - the lizards lay their eggs in the ground - far from sterile.

Then check the box/es daily after about 50 days to see if there are little lizzies waiting to be removed. I've had great hatching success using this method - but not so much success raising the little buggers !

Jamie


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## mummabear (Apr 20, 2015)

Hi Reptalica,

I understand one has hatched successfully but in order to have 100% healthy hatch rate with strong babies you need to keep the temps down, nothing you can do about it now as the early days are what is important.
Every year i get 100% hatch rate, but this year my thermostat malfunctioned (it stopped turning my fridge on when it got too hot sometime) and the temps went from 24-29 over a couple of months for a few hours each day. I also hatched 1 healthy animal over that time but 5 others died full term in the egg or piped and died. They were all deformed (mainly tails and spine). After working out the problem and fixing it all new eggs (from same mother) hatched fine. 
Jamie, mine hatch in 72-90 days. If you are getting them hatching at 50 then you are incubating too hot. Thats probably why you didn't have strong hatchlings.
Temp (under 24) is the key to these guys. Mine incubator temps can go down to 15 over winter with no issues to hatch rates.


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## salebrosus (Apr 20, 2015)

Amen to that. Definitely sounds way to hot - and don't pip. I do mine in the bathroom where the temps are steady 22-24 degrees. 



mummabear said:


> Hi Reptalica,
> 
> I understand one has hatched successfully but in order to have 100% healthy hatch rate with strong babies you need to keep the temps down, nothing you can do about it now as the early days are what is important.
> Every year i get 100% hatch rate, but this year my thermostat malfunctioned (it stopped turning my fridge on when it got too hot sometime) and the temps went from 24-29 over a couple of months for a few hours each day. I also hatched 1 healthy animal over that time but 5 others died full term in the egg or piped and died. They were all deformed (mainly tails and spine). After working out the problem and fixing it all new eggs (from same mother) hatched fine.
> ...


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## reptalica (Apr 21, 2015)

Given it has been well over a week now and the egg still not hatched we took it upon ourselves to pip the egg as we really had given up all hope of finding a live animal and given the advice (useful) from others we chose to pip said egg. 

Upon removing a significant amount of egg shell and removing the stillborn bubs we think there were twins or two dragons in the one egg shell both fairly well joined together.

My thinking is along the lines of a deformity occurring which mummabear eluded to as opposed to two healthy twin dragons being cooked well before time.

All in all it's a sad experience however through lessons learned and picking the eyes out of the posts above we will be well equipped in the future.

Again thanks to the posters who weighed in to this topic.

Cheers.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 22, 2015)

Yep, checked my records Ursula and you're right - I was quoting from memory (scrawlings on my incubator!) and they didn't relate to Boyd's... the Boyd's are around 80 days. The babies did seem quite strong, but I don't think I set them up correctly, or maybe didn't offer them the right food. The babies seemed too slow to catch things like baby woodies etc. What's the preferred starter food for these guys? 

I have to say that they're probably one of the most beautiful lizards in the world actually - the colours of the males (especially) are subtle but gorgeous. But boy can they bite! Was removing a bit of loose skin from the bottom jaw of a big male once and he got me on the end of my finger - was like a pair of wire cutters!

I also have a question - this summer I put my solo male in a fully enclosed and thickly planted outside aviary, and he just thrived - colours improved, activity returned to what I would consider normal - down on the floor in the cooler parts when the aviary got hot, but climbing into the creepers & logs & treetrunks when it got cooler in the afternoons - all in all it was great for him - and therefore good for me too. He could forage as he needed to, but I hand fed him every day as well.

Now it has cooled down and the days are shorter, he's disappeared... I'm sure he's still there, but just reacted to seasonal change. I don't want to pull the aviary and all its vegetation apart to look for him if he will be able to tolerate our cooler months in his self-selected shelter. We don't get frosts on our property, and the aviary is fully clad with polycarbonate sheeting, so it gets warm during the day even in winter. Do you know how cold tolerant these guys are Ursula, or whether their range extends into the higher, cooler forests where the nights get fairly cold anyway? Anyone else keeping them outside with experience of their cold tolerance? If it looks like it'll be too cold for him outside when winter really sets in, I'll need to find him and bring him inside... do they brumate in their home ranges?

Any advice appreciated.

Jamie


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## mummabear (Apr 24, 2015)

Jamie,

I mainly use crickets for Boyds. Any enclosure i have where food items can hide crickets are fed because they always come out at some point. Boyds do fine on them as a sole food item. There are lots of other things you can feed them though. Silkworms are a great one as they don't move fast. Boyds absolutely love silkworms. Good item if you want to teach them to hand feed. They can't resist. They will also take snails.
Not sure where you were going wrong with babies but i feed every day, provide low level UV, and make sure they have constant running water (waterfall) or sprayed until they drink daily. The other killer of Babys Boyds is the heat. I reckon the best temps would be around 24-26 but keep them under 30.
I can only give you what i have observed in my captive population in Cairns. Field herpers or photographers would have to wage in on their personal observations for wild populations.
Looking at maps of their natural distribution one would come to the conclusion, by looking at the yearly temperatures, it gets quite cool in winter. I would not worry about the cold with Boyds given their distribution. The heat would be my biggest concern with this species.
In regards to brumation mine do not. Im not saying they don't in the wild (wouldn't know), i probably expect they do, but my captive populations don't. The other interesting fact is they start breeding in Winter at my place.


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