# Spider ball python



## LadyJ (Sep 6, 2010)

Why is there a morph of the ball python bred when they all 'wobble' (similar to stargazing), there seem to be some pretty severe cases out there... I don't know who in their right mind would buy (or breed!) a snake with such a defect.

Is there something I'm missing? :|


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## percey39 (Sep 6, 2010)

They same goes with jag's.


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## LadyJ (Sep 6, 2010)

percey39 said:


> They same goes with jag's.


 
Wow, really? Like, tremors?


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## percey39 (Sep 6, 2010)

Yeah very common for these two morphs to show neuro issues. I must admit though some are nearly non existant and others are very distressing to see.


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## LadyJ (Sep 6, 2010)

Oh my... didn't think I could be any more against morphs and crossing, but it just doesn't seem right to me (my opinion, sorry if it offends but it's not going to change). I can't see why people would continue to breed them given the fact this occurs...


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## scottyo998 (Sep 6, 2010)

the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 6, 2010)

Many purebred dog breeds suffer from similar and other health issues, for similar reasons... yet, many people prefer purebred dogs. Will we see the same in herp industry?


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## LadyJ (Sep 6, 2010)

scottyo998 said:


> the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding


 
Aah... thanks for the explanation. Some of the videos I've seen on the subject - it breaks my heart... I'd never want to buy into or support that in any way (really deters me from ever wanting to breed anything, haha!). I do find these morphs look incredible... I wonder how widespread the problem is here?


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## scottyo998 (Sep 6, 2010)

well in aus i dont think the problem is present at all really. Its a US problem. Its in jags because of their limited range of carpets due to australia not exporting them, plus the carpets they do have a pretty much 'muddied' as they treated the original ones they had as just different looking, not aware that they were actually different sub species (from my understanding on the subject) . Here we dont have a limited supply as the US does, so as long as we stay smart, we shouldnt have the same problems.


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## D3pro (Sep 6, 2010)

mmm... it could be that its not the skin morph gene that causes the problem, but rather, a defective gene attached to the morph gene that gets passed on to the sibling. 
This could happen with any morph or pure breed line (not limited to snakes).
There have been albino lines with problems that effect the snakes health, but because the breeders don't want to give up the morph trait, they decided to breed it anyway as they reason the pro's outweigh the cons.
Kinda sucks to face these problems.


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## Tegstep (Sep 6, 2010)

scottyo998 said:


> the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding


 
This for the newbies to the hobby is what is affectionately known of as "Line-Breeding" by dodgy breeders.

Beware...


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## Jimi (Sep 6, 2010)

LadyJ it is not a problem here in Oz, if you are concerned about animals being bred for with defects your energy should be directed more so at cats and dogs.

Scotty I'm sure you would be shocked to know all the inbreeding that goes on in the reptile world, its not really an issue.


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## LadyJ (Sep 6, 2010)

Aah, I wasn't aware it was a problem to start with (spare the 'jag culling' thread... but let's not go there), pretty much puts you off and I really hope it isn't widespread here...

And Jimi, trust me, I know all to well of the horrors of companion animal breeding... but let's not go there either.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 6, 2010)

scottyo998 said:


> the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding


 
Tremors in Jags has absolutely nothing to do with inbreeding what so ever!


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 6, 2010)

junglepython2 said:


> Tremors in Jags has absolutely nothing to do with inbreeding what so ever!


 
agreed.it has nothing to do with inbreeding.some morps have little "issues"attached to them and sounds like the spider morph has a "wobble"issue.i personally dont know how bad it is but i do know that the neuro issues in jags are a storm in a teacup.unless you have an ultra keen eye ,you wouldn't know there was an issue.with jags it only tends to show when it is placed under an extreme stress situation like if a male jag has been placed in a combat situation with another male during breeding time.my jag girl has never shown any abnormal issues.
cheers
simon


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## No-two (Sep 6, 2010)

scottyo998 said:


> (from my understanding on the subject).


 
And boy that understanding is wrong.


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## percey39 (Sep 6, 2010)

There are cases where people have these issues arise later on in life with jags and many that have no visible effects at all. We will have the problems with our jags, as we are only just producing them on a "major" scale recently. These issues are passed down to siblings, but as stated some have next to no visible signs while there are others that corkscrew their entire bodies, star gaze constantly and fall over when trying to climb.
Line breeding is an entirely different arguement and produces problems completely different to that of jags.


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## Jay84 (Sep 6, 2010)

LadyJ said:


> Oh my... didn't think I could be any more against morphs and crossing


 
Not all morphs or hybrids are affected.


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## NBLADE (Sep 6, 2010)

LadyJ said:


> Why is there a morph of the ball python bred when they all 'wobble' (similar to stargazing), there seem to be some pretty severe cases out there... I don't know who in their right mind would buy (or breed!) a snake with such a defect.
> 
> Is there something I'm missing? :|


 

all spiders will wobble at some point in their life, whether its as babys and they lose it as adults, or they don't have it for years then one day start to show it, it seems all will at one point wobble, and it will be from minor head side to side movements when excited, to full blown stargazing, and breeding a minor spinner to a minor spinner has no influence on the babies or how much they spin. But saying all that the spider morph are known for being great feeders. very outgoing and very good breeders, so seems to not affect them at all.





scottyo998 said:


> the reason it occurred is because of too closely breeding the same bloodlines. So its pretty much safe to say that the entire population of that morph of snake probably has very few bloodlines in it, it is severely inbred. If breeding for morphs is done correctly, this doesnt happen. its only when foolish people get something they like and then only breed it to siblings or parents, generation after generation, that you get this sort of this happening. Its sad and like shown here, puts people off designer morphs, even though it is an inaccurate demonstration of what can be achieved through selective breeding



i believe the spider gene was not messed up through line breeding, but was caused because of the origional male, the origional wild caught spider wobbles, so the wobble has been passed on to all ofspring, nothing to do with line breeding, as the spider morph is a dominant gene that acts co dom, so bred to a normal produces half and half, so there was no need to line breed like there would be for recessive genes.


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## Jay84 (Sep 6, 2010)

NBLADE said:


> i believe the spider gene was not messed up through line breeding, but was caused because of the origional male, the origional wild caught spider wobbles, so the wobble has been passed on to all ofspring, nothing to do with line breeding, as the spider morph is a dominant gene that acts co dom, so bred to a normal produces half and half, so there was no need to line breed like there would be for recessive genes.


 
VERY interesting, so the first spider was a wild caught animal? Not produced in the hands of humans...


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## No-two (Sep 6, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> VERY interesting, so the first spider was a wild caught animal? Not produced in the hands of humans...


 
Alot of morphs originate in the wild.


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## scottyo998 (Sep 6, 2010)

Thanks for setting me straight then, I appreciate the actual helpful ones, not the ones that just say " you have no clue". My only reason I sag that it line breeding must have something to do with it is because animals dot just develop issues that are passed down for no reason. Surely the first jag wouldn't have shown issues as it would have come from 'healthy' parents. Which means at some point the line has developed this issue. Can someone please explain, if somehow this isn't thie case, what is, wihout just saying that its just a little quirk. Cheers


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## blakehose (Sep 6, 2010)

Defects are also common in 'Cinnamon' morphs. Though instead of tremors, they often sufter vertebral kinks.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 6, 2010)

scottyo998 said:


> Thanks for setting me straight then, I appreciate the actual helpful ones, not the ones that just say " you have no clue". My only reason I sag that it line breeding must have something to do with it is because animals dot just develop issues that are passed down for no reason. Surely the first jag wouldn't have shown issues as it would have come from 'healthy' parents. Which means at some point the line has developed this issue. Can someone please explain, if somehow this isn't thie case, what is, wihout just saying that its just a little quirk. Cheers



The first Jag was due to a mutation, most mutations are not beneficial. The Jag one just happened to create animals with a reduced pattern which some consider desirable. The Neuro issues were also associated with it which obviously are not benefical. A mutation coming from healthy parents doesn't mean the mutations or offspring will be healthy and the first Jag almost certainly also had the neuro issues.

As Jags are a co-dom gene with the homozygous phenotype being lethal they are easily outcrossed and very little inbreeding takes place at all as it doesn't create more Jags as is the case with recessive conidtions such as albinism.


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## D3pro (Sep 6, 2010)

Maybe someday someone will genetically engineer the Jag gene and take out the Neuro defect lol.


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## MDSTIM (Sep 6, 2010)

junglepython2 said:


> The first Jag was due to a mutation, most mutations are not beneficial. The Jag one just happened to create animals with a reduced pattern which some consider desirable. The Neuro issues were also associated with it which obviously are not benefical. A mutation coming from healthy parents doesn't mean the mutations or offspring will be healthy and the first Jag almost certainly also had the neuro issues.
> 
> As Jags are a co-dom gene with the homozygous phenotype being lethal they are easily outcrossed and very little inbreeding takes place at all as it doesn't create more Jags as is the case with recessive conidtions such as albinism.



Hi junglepython2,

The explanation relating to jags and ball python neurological issues is very helpful, (good to see indepth information that you have provided and not just spiteful comments that some others prefer to make).

Further to your information doesn't there have to be something in it with small gene pools that people have been working with in the "States" and that combined with constant, excessive inbreeding has exacerbated the situation....your thoughts.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 6, 2010)

MDSTIM said:


> Hi junglepython2,
> 
> The explanation relating to jags and ball python neurological issues is very helpful, (good to see indepth information that you have provided and not just spiteful comments that some others prefer to make).
> 
> Further to your information doesn't there have to be something in it with small gene pools that people have been working with in the "States" and that combined with constant, excessive inbreeding has exacerbated the situation....your thoughts.



I don't think the gene pool in the states or Europe is as small as people think, and despite what people say it's not a closed system, animals are still getting smuggled over, plus as far as I'm aware they can import between the two continents. Plus Jag's have been outcrossed to everything imaginable so when you combine your bredli, coatals, jungles, diamonds, Md's and everyhting inbetween you end up with a pretty big gene pool, and being Co-dom trait, Jags themselves have never really been inbred.

The Neuro issues are tied up with the mutation itself, outcrossing to a "healthy" line doesn't remove it. Someone one day may strike it lucky and find another trait that can counteract the neuro issue but as the original problem has nothing to do with inbreeding, outcrossing won't necessarily fix it.


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## NBLADE (Sep 7, 2010)

blakehose said:


> Defects are also common in 'Cinnamon' morphs. Though instead of tremors, they often sufter vertebral kinks.


 
i've never actually come across a kinked cinny, however it is common with caramel albinos, and eye defects were common in albino boa constrictors until people learnt not to breed albino to albino, but use a het or a pair of hets




Jay84 said:


> VERY interesting, so the first spider was a wild caught animal? Not produced in the hands of humans...


 
all of the base morphs were wild caught origionally, all we have done is line bred to get brighter individuals, or crossed base morphs into each other to create multi gened animals, or proved out super forms of some morphs.


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## byron_moses (Sep 7, 2010)

dosent help with the ball pythons they are wlaways breeding 2 co dom morphs together


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## blakehose (Sep 7, 2010)

NBLADE said:


> i've never actually come across a kinked cinny, however it is common with caramel albinos, and eye defects were common in albino boa constrictors until people learnt not to breed albino to albino, but use a het or a pair of hets.



Ah really, I think it was Cinnamon hah. I saw something about it just recently, may have been Brian Barzcyks latest video, but i'm not too sure. You know more about it than I do!


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