# R.I.P. water dragons



## Magruber (Dec 26, 2011)

I thoughy I'd take my two 8 month old eastern water dragons out for some fun in the sun but ended in terror, I had them placed in a bucket out side in direct sunlight on a 35 degree day because Im used to keeping beardies I thought they could cope with the heat. I stayed with them for ten minits checking regulary then all of a sudden they became unconscious from heat stress one died instantly the othe still had his eyes open so I fought for him for hours, misting him and cooling him down but unfortunately he past as well. Not happy with my self one bit. how could I think that water dragons would be able to survive in those conditions.
So sad at this moment
Lost my two baby's 
Rest in peace hopper and dusty


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## Khagan (Dec 26, 2011)

Hmm..


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 26, 2011)

Thats just horrible, on all sorts of levels.


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## 69blottfilms69 (Dec 26, 2011)

Mate thats terrible


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## longqi (Dec 26, 2011)

If correct its a hard lesson
One thing to always remember is that inside a bucket will be a lot hotter than out in the open
They probably could have coped with 35c
But not 50c


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 26, 2011)

Water dragons being my absolute favourite lizards i find this more than a little distressing and infuriating, I hope Khagan is right and you are just a troll.


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## Khagan (Dec 26, 2011)

Incase you're not trolling.. No reptile should be put in the sun without a shaded escape providing them with cooler temps, not even your beardies.


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 26, 2011)

Where on earth did you get the idea to put lizards in buckets in the sun on any day, let alone above 30[SUP]o[/SUP]C? As Longqi indicated, it will get to 50[SUP]o[/SUP]C or there abouts. Try it with thermometer and see.

Given that 35[SUP]o[/SUP]C is the top end of the recommended thermal gradient and that is meant for lizards from the northern part of their range, you should not have them out in that heat at all. At an ambient temperature of 35[SUP]o[/SUP]C means they cannot thermoregulate, even if you provided the shade that you must ALWAYS provide, as Khagan pointed out. 

If you are fair dinkum about this, then why did you ignore the lizards in their scrambling attempts to claw their way out of the bucket. I know these lizards well and they do not just roll over and expire if they are not happy where they are. They would have made every attempt to escape. As for keeping one going for hours after the other died... a croc of. Heat exhaustion causes irreversible changes to blood chemistry which result in fairly rapid demise. The only thing that is going to keep it going is a blood transfusion.

So the question is, how much have you made up and how much is for real?

Either way, sounds like you should not be allowed near a reptile.

Blue


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## Magruber (Dec 26, 2011)

Get a life mate I just lost two of my lizards so the last thing I need is some old fart hangin **** on me. don't post if you ya just gonna be smart *** no one thinks your awesome just because you bag out inexperienced keepers who fail once. Have so respect.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 26, 2011)

Magruber, mate dont get pissed off just try to take it all in stride. You have to understand that everyone on here has a passion for these animals and its hard not to get upset. Just like if you would go post on a dog forum that you left your puppy locked in a car and it died, trust me you will leave alot of people seriously pissed off. I feel for you mate, it was a pretty big mistake to make and cost you the lives of two of your pets. I hope you learn from this, but try to understand where others are coming from.


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## Chris1 (Dec 26, 2011)

like blue said, animals dont just lay down and die, there is no way they wouldnt have been scrambling at the sides.

besides, who in their right mind would deny tehm a shady side???????

its cleary written in rules all over the place, animals placed outdoors must have 50% shade, yet every summer thers at least 3 threads like this,..(and probably a whole bunch more that get cooked and not mentioned) !!!!!

youre upset, and understandably so.

thats all from me so i dont get an infraction,....


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## junglepython2 (Dec 26, 2011)

It is an easy mistake to make especially for the inexperienced, at least you had the balls to admit to it and hopefully others can learn from it.


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## snakelady96 (Dec 26, 2011)

Only take your reptiles out in the sun when you are there, stay with them and when it gets too hot for you its too hot for them. Thats just how i am, everyones probably got their own different idea but give that a go.


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## timantula (Dec 26, 2011)

well theres a lesson lernt the hard way....


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## andysnakes (Dec 26, 2011)

r.i.p water dragons......
the title of the thread should have been more like m.b.o water dragons........(murdered by owner)


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## Notorious_Guf (Dec 26, 2011)

andysnakes said:


> r.i.p water dragons......
> the title of the thread should have been more like m.b.o water dragons........(murdered by owner)



Wow, harsh! 

Sorry to hear about your Dragons! I think it's great that you came here to tell people of your mistake, as you will no doubt help other inexperienced keepers, or people thinking of keeping reptiles, to not make the same mistake. 

Not everyone has a clear understanding of how reptiles work. People come here in search of information & mistakes are often the best way to learn. I knew someone who had kept a bearded dragon years ago & didn't realise it needed UV lighting & that they don't always drink from a water bowl. Theirs died while they were away for a few days, but they learnt their lesson & went seeking for an answer. Thus learning more about the animals they too love.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 26, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> Magruber, mate dont get pissed off just try to take it all in stride. You have to understand that everyone on here has a passion for these animals and its hard not to get upset. Just like if you would go post on a dog forum that you left your puppy locked in a car and it died, trust me you will leave alot of people seriously pissed off. I feel for you mate, it was a pretty big mistake to make and cost you the lives of two of your pets. I hope you learn from this, but try to understand where others are coming from.




Well said Exotic doc.

As far as I am concerned any one with a bit of common sense knows not to leave ANY animal out in the sun on a 35 degree day without protection from the sun. I too am only new to reptiles but as far as i am concerned i would never even think of leaving my animals alone and unsupervised in the backyard, I would be to concerned that if the sun didnt get to them,that a bird or some sort of other threat could come into contact with them.


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## andysnakes (Dec 26, 2011)

*!*



Notorious_Guf said:


> Wow, harsh!
> 
> Sorry to hear about your Dragons! I think it's great that you came here to tell people of your mistake, as you will no doubt help other inexperienced keepers, or people thinking of keeping reptiles, to not make the same mistake.
> 
> ...



people that have no common sense should not keep reptiles! simple as that


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## MathewB (Dec 26, 2011)

I thought it was debatable to whether or not they needed UV? 

Bad mistake mate and you paid the highest price, but I suppose ou don't need to be told that. I'm stunned that your dragon hasn't suffered a similiar fate. But what was going through your head? Couldn't you see the dangers?


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 26, 2011)

Notorious_Guf said:


> Wow, harsh!
> 
> Sorry to hear about your Dragons! I think it's great that you came here to tell people of your mistake, as you will no doubt help other inexperienced keepers, or people thinking of keeping reptiles, to not make the same mistake.
> 
> Not everyone has a clear understanding of how reptiles work. People come here in search of information & mistakes are often the best way to learn. I knew someone who had kept a bearded dragon years ago & didn't realise it needed UV lighting & that they don't always drink from a water bowl. Theirs died while they were away for a few days, but they learnt their lesson & went seeking for an answer. Thus learning more about the animals they too love.



Not everyone has a clear understanding of how children work either. Is it ok when people lock there kids in the car while they "just duck into the shops" on a 35 degree day? But dont worry they can be replaced so it doesnt matter if they have a gruesome end to their life? But, because you can easily replace a water dragon, lets just tell the guy to "try again".

People should have a slear understanding of what their reptile requires and if they dont they shouldnt have them.

I dont think anyone has said anything harsh at all in this thread. I had expected people to be a lot harsher. Magruber did a stupid thing. shall we all just sit back and say poor magruber? IMO, there is probably alot of detail that was left out, such as the length of time that these poor guys were left out in the sun in a BUCKET for.....


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## Notorious_Guf (Dec 26, 2011)

newtolovingsnake said:


> Not everyone has a clear understanding of how children work either. Is it ok when people lock there kids in the car while they "just duck into the shops" on a 35 degree day? But dont worry they can be replaced so it doesnt matter if they have a gruesome end to their life? But, because you can easily replace a water dragon, lets just tell the guy to "try again".
> 
> People should have a slear understanding of what their reptile requires and if they dont they shouldnt have them.
> 
> I dont think anyone has said anything harsh at all in this thread. I had expected people to be a lot harsher. Magruber did a stupid thing. shall we all just sit back and say poor magruber? IMO, there is probably alot of detail that was left out, such as the length of time that these poor guys were left out in the sun in a BUCKET for.....



You can't compare human life to an animals life, for many reasons, however as an adult caring for a child, you have a much more maternal instinct as to whats right or wrong in care. In much the same way an animal caring for it's young would also have the same instincts. As a human caring for an animal, you don't have this instinct. Many people would see a reptile as something that needs heat to be active, they would see them basking in the sun in the wild & not think any further than that. In my opinion, it is an easy mistake to make if you have not done your research before acquiring your animal. We all know that people don't always research before buying a pet & we all would agree that they should. This person obviously hasn't & his mistake will hopefully serve to help other people, who are doing their research, not to make the same mistake. 

Calling someone a Murderer, when it was not intentional is Harsh!


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 26, 2011)

As a reptile keeper (or keeper of any animal), we are trusted with these animals lives, so therefore, exactly the same as a parent, we have to find out what is best for them. And the best way to find that out is to research, not to let them cook, and then say oh bad luck. 

All it would have taken, if he couldnt find the answer himself, is a thread on here asking "is it safe to put my water dragons in a bucket out in the sun with no shade on a 35 degree day". He would have been met with resounding "No's" and known not to. Instead he didnt ask, didnt try to find out and he cooked his pets, and now wants sympathy.

as i said before. common sense tells you that you dont put any animal in a confined space in extreme heat without somewhere that they can hide. This is why when we set up their enclosures, we provide hot ends and cool ends and hides and such, so the animal can choose where it needs to be.


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## Notorious_Guf (Dec 26, 2011)

newtolovingsnake said:


> As a reptile keeper (or keeper of any animal), we are trusted with these animals lives, so therefore, exactly the same as a parent, we have to find out what is best for them. And the best way to find that out is to research, not to let them cook, and then say oh bad luck.
> 
> All it would have taken, if he couldnt find the answer himself, is a thread on here asking "is it safe to put my water dragons in a bucket out in the sun with no shade on a 35 degree day". He would have been met with resounding "No's" and known not to. Instead he didnt ask, didnt try to find out and he cooked his pets, and now wants sympathy.
> 
> as i said before. common sense tells you that you dont put any animal in a confined space in extreme heat without somewhere that they can hide. This is why when we set up their enclosures, we provide hot ends and cool ends and hides and such, so the animal can choose where it needs to be.



As I said, everyone would agree that researching your animal before buying is the correct thing to do. Not everyone does, some people get given animals as gifts with no prior knowledge. 

You are presuming he has come here for sympathy. Rather than seeing anyone who makes mistakes in a negative way, try to take a positive out of it. Think of all the young people, or new keepers who have never used a forum before, seeing this on the first page on the forums & therefore learning not to do it themselves. Not everyone knows how to search for information, or ask the right questions. Not everyone thinks that certain things could be the wrong thing to do & not everyone reading this forum is a member & wants to or has the ability to ask questions. Some would be frightened to ask for help, for fear that they would be called an idiot for asking, told to search for the answer or be called a murderer for making a mistake.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 26, 2011)

Id rather ask a stupid question then kill or possibly injure my animal. There is no stupid questions when it comes to a living thing. 

and as far as being worried about asking a question for fear of being called an idiot and being told to search, for every 1 member that may say this there is another 20 that are willing to answer questions. (and ive checked, the person in question has no problems asking questions).


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## ricky_91 (Dec 26, 2011)

only put your animals out for sun when its a bit sunny not beaming down and get them a flex mesh cage and put a bowl over half of it so half shade half sun and plenty of water on the shade side


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## Gecko :) (Dec 26, 2011)

I am sorry for the loss of your Water Dragons,. very tragic & you are no doubt feeling awful about your mistake.

Come on guys,. no need to be so nasty !


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## Waterrat (Dec 26, 2011)

Sorry to hear that.
Someone local did exctly the same with a yearling GTP he bought from me. Put it out on the lawn in a click-clack, went to clean the cage and when he returned the container was in full sun and the snake dead. Imagine how he felt. I know it's of no consolation to you but these things happen, I cooked 10 tiger snakes in the boot of my car once, Grrr!


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## Feurety (Dec 26, 2011)

i have to agree with most .. if your to dumb to use common sense or ask a simple question ... you deserve to be stuffed in a bucket out in the sun yourself. Try having a pet goldfish this time (cold water ... NOT hot water) ...


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## ricky_91 (Dec 26, 2011)

you do learn from your mistakes


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## Waterrat (Dec 26, 2011)

Feurety said:


> i have to agree with most .. if your to dumb to use common sense or ask a simple question what question?... you deserve to be stuffed in a bucket out in the sun yourself. Try having a pet goldfish this time (cold water ... NOT hot water) ...




Gee, 27 years old you have never made a mistake or a dumb decision. You are genius but you just don't know what's ahead of you.


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 26, 2011)

Wow some member of APS can be so cruel, you are treating this person as if they did it on purpose... accidents happen and they are obviously distressed from losing two close to heart animals

RIP water dragons


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## souldoubt (Dec 26, 2011)

Notorious_Guf said:


> You can't compare human life to an animals life, for many reasons, however as an adult caring for a child, you have a much more maternal instinct as to whats right or wrong in care. In much the same way an animal caring for it's young would also have the same instincts. As a human caring for an animal, you don't have this instinct. Many people would see a reptile as something that needs heat to be active, they would see them basking in the sun in the wild & not think any further than that. In my opinion, it is an easy mistake to make if you have not done your research before acquiring your animal. We all know that people don't always research before buying a pet & we all would agree that they should. This person obviously hasn't & his mistake will hopefully serve to help other people, who are doing their research, not to make the same mistake.
> 
> Calling someone a Murderer, when it was not intentional is Harsh!



Could I ask what makes an animals life or suffering so insignificant compared to human life/suffering? because to be honest I've never understood this mindset. To me it seems to be a statement that's commonly used to excuse or justify any cruel experience that an animal has suffered (be it intentional or unintentional).
I also dont buy this "stronger parental instinct" argument at all - I dont even want kids and I never leave ANY of my pets unattended in cars, direct sunlight etc.

Magruba, I would have to agree with most that putting them in the sun in a bucket was a stupid idea, but I am glad to see some remorse from you so I doubt it will happen again.


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## Masonwells (Dec 26, 2011)

When it comes to asking a simple question on APS, I have seen some very outrages reply's. "Use the search on the top if this page" or "have you tried google". Obviously people would like a quick simple answer of people that are in the know, it's nice to get information from people rather than read 10 different opinions from the USA. 

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss.


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## Notorious_Guf (Dec 26, 2011)

souldoubt said:


> Could I ask what makes an animals life or suffering so insignificant compared to human life/suffering? because to be honest I've never understood this mindset. To me it seems to be a statement that's commonly used to excuse or justify any cruel experience that an animal has suffered (be it intentional or unintentional).
> I also dont buy this "stronger parental instinct" argument at all - I dont even want kids and I never leave ANY of my pets unattended in cars, direct sunlight etc.
> 
> Magruba, I would have to agree with most that putting them in the sun in a bucket was a stupid idea, but I am glad to see some remorse from you so I doubt it will happen again.



First of all you can't be unintentionally cruel, cruel by definition is willingly or knowingly causing pain or distress of others. 

I have lived a life where I have learnt from mistakes, such as getting sun burnt or not being able to breathe underwater. These mistakes in turn help you understand how the human body works, allowing you to make informed decisions about caring for a child or other human being. 

An animal has different body functions & operations. Some animals can breathe underwater or can tolerate much higher heat for example. As a human, you have not personally experienced what an animal can & can't tolerate. If you have done zero research on a lizard before acquiring one (as a kid, I'm sure many of you caught a lizard with no understanding of it's husbandry) then how are you to know that leaving a lizard in the sun, is the wrong thing to do, considering that there is every chance you have only ever seen a lizard in the wild, basking on a rock in direct sunlight? 

As a kid I caught a bunch of bees in a butterfly catcher, left it out in the sun for 20 mins or so & they all died. This was unintentional & I learned from my mistakes. Should I have done research on how to care for these bees before attempting to catch them? I quickly learned to never do it again!

As for your animal vs human life question, I refuse to answer it as it is off topic & will no doubt turn into a creation vs evolution argument. I was purely stating that you can't compare a human caring for a human child against a human caring for an animal of a different species.


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## Magruber (Dec 26, 2011)

I always stay with my lizards when there outside it just happened so fast.
Thanks every one who was mature about this thread and thanks everone else for your two cents worth. I pretty sure I'm aware I killed them but you should probably tell me a few more time if I don't already know


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## souldoubt (Dec 26, 2011)

Notorious_Guf said:


> First of all you can't be unintentionally cruel, cruel by definition is willingly or knowingly causing pain or distress of others.
> 
> I have lived a life where I have learnt from mistakes, such as getting sun burnt or not being able to breathe underwater. These mistakes in turn help you understand how the human body works, allowing you to make informed decisions about caring for a child or other human being.
> 
> ...



Shall I replace "cruel" with "undesirable" just to sort out any misunderstanding - the term was simply used to indicate that, overheating (although it may not be intentional) is a painful way to die.

I'm sure you would agree someone should not own an animal when they have not done any prior research about that species. 
Animal ethics (for research purposes) standards basically say that unless it can be proven otherwise you should assume an animal feels what a human in the same situation feels, I think that someone who hasn't done their research or cant find an answer to their question about their chosen species of pet should also act this way.
Using this case as an example, learning not to put animals in the sun in a bucket by overheating them is NOT an optimal method of education. You can find this out quite easily, or assume by commonsense what the outcome is likely to be.

This is a general opinion of mine Magruber, I'm not at all intending to single you out.


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## Wookie (Dec 26, 2011)

Whoever said it is an easy mistake to make or he didn't have a clear understanding; what a crock! Just my opinion but shouldn't you understand PRIOR to buying the animal?


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## junglemac (Dec 26, 2011)

You don't have kids, but if I had to choose to save either a human or a reptile I would always choose the person in distress. 



souldoubt said:


> Could I ask what makes an animals life or suffering so insignificant compared to human life/suffering? because to be honest I've never understood this mindset. To me it seems to be a statement that's commonly used to excuse or justify any cruel experience that an animal has suffered (be it intentional or unintentional).
> I also dont buy this "stronger parental instinct" argument at all - I dont even want kids and I never leave ANY of my pets unattended in cars, direct sunlight etc.
> 
> Magruba, I would have


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## Shotta (Dec 26, 2011)

woah sorry about your Dragons man 
could've happened to anyone


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## Reptar859 (Dec 26, 2011)

Notorious_Guf said:


> Wow, harsh!
> 
> Sorry to hear about your Dragons! I think it's great that you came here to tell people of your mistake, as you will no doubt help other inexperienced keepers, or people thinking of keeping reptiles, to not make the same mistake.
> 
> Not everyone has a clear understanding of how reptiles work. People come here in search of information & mistakes are often the best way to learn. I knew someone who had kept a bearded dragon years ago & didn't realise it needed UV lighting & that they don't always drink from a water bowl. Theirs died while they were away for a few days, but they learnt their lesson & went seeking for an answer. Thus learning more about the animals they too love.



Had to reply to this. My baby Black Soils dont drink from their dish yet. We all needed to go away for a couple of days ( got home today). I went and bought a small plastic enclosure with a vented lid. Because i was depending on sunlight to keep my guys warm the first thing packed was the battery operated thermometer the uv light was taken just incase because of the size of the enclosure i wasnt to keen on using it. A few sprays of water each day and never leaving them without a pair of eyes on the temps and i have two happy dragons. But i must admit it was a stressful time for me I love my guys and would hate for anything to happen to them.


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## medz84 (Dec 26, 2011)

sometimes i think these reptile licences should be stricter, do a min 2 week course on owning and caring for reptiles...


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 26, 2011)

medz84 said:


> sometimes i think these reptile licences should be stricter, do a min 2 week course on owning and caring for reptiles...




I agree. All you have to do is apply and pay and wham, bam, thank you ma'am, you have one! I know that one of the pet shops here runs courses and so does a local reptile keeper, something like that should be compulsory.


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## Jeffa (Dec 26, 2011)

Please do not have kids. You might leave them unattended in the car?

I was only playing pokies for 15 minutes.


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## Feurety (Dec 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Gee, 27 years old you have never made a mistake or a dumb decision. You are genius but you just don't know what's ahead of you.



Waterrat, dont judge unless you have facts... Magruba gave the facts in his own words and has been judged. Clearly ive made mistakes but never as stupid as to cause the death of a animal or any other life .. sorry but using common sense isnt to hard unless your a 6 yr old. Who in there right mind would trap a animal/s in a bucket and put it in the sun ? common, grow up already.


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## paultheo (Dec 26, 2011)

MathewB said:


> I thought it was debatable to whether or not they needed UV?
> 
> Bad mistake mate and you paid the highest price, but I suppose ou don't need to be told that. I'm stunned that your dragon hasn't suffered a similiar fate. But what was going through your head? Couldn't you see the dangers?


 sorry if this has already been answered but i got to here and had to say this...Beardies NEED UV no debate at all mate. if they dont get UV then they cannot utilise the calcium that you should be giving them as an additive to their food and this causes massive problems, which if caught in time can be fixed with the correct daily doses of uv (approx. 12-14 hrs) and calcium & vitamin suppliments at the correct amounts, however by the time a newbie sees there is an issue its usally too late.

i say that all keepers of reptiles should be made to go to a course to assure they know the basics, and i know that a lot of people on this site are well past that stage but it would sure stop problems like the lizard in bucket issue and someone thinking UVB and UVA are debatable issues for bearded dragons.:shock:


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## Jarden (Dec 26, 2011)

Un lucky mate not a way to finish up the year hope you learned from this experience all you can do is move on and research abit more on what you can and can't do with you're reptiles


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## AndrewHenderson (Dec 26, 2011)

Surely when the OP posted he wasn't expecting 20,000 members to be sympathetic, if you post something like that you are going to get backlash hence why people thought he was trolling...Personally if I had done that I wouldn't be posting about it on a forum given it's borderline animal cruelty. Keep it to yourself, learn from your mistake. If you were looking for reassurance and sympathy I think the tribe has spoken and the mojority aren't going to offer it up!

It sucks it happened, you made a rookie mistake that could have easily been avoided had you read a book and learnt something about the animals you were caring for. I'm pretty sure you won't do it again and lesson learnt!


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## MetalMick (Dec 26, 2011)

How sad is this..

ALL keepers should have a IR Non-contact thermometer in their BASIC kit.........

Herp shop sells thermometers for $60~120


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 26, 2011)

_*Magruber*_,
Putting aside my concerns, and if you genuinely believe you made mistakes, then ask yourself why? What care information have you got that is specific to Australian water dragons? Did you assume that the care information for bearded dragons was the same for all dragons? Did you come up with the plastic bucket idea or did someone else....

The bottom line is that the mistakes you made were based on a lack of information, incorrect information or poor assumptions. I was simply pointing out some of those. You need to rectify your understandings if you wish to successfully keep reptiles of any variety. If you want some good references for water dragons, I will gladly PM you some excellent and comprehensive sources.

It is not that I don’t empathise with your loss. And I am certainly not innocent - I have made my share of mistakes in my time. And when I have made mistakes that were eminently avoidable I have deserved a good kick in the butt. Rest assured, I am a lot harsher on myself when I make an avoidable mistake than I have been with you. 

The bottom line is, analyse what happened and why, then take the necessary steps so that it will never happen again. That aside, I am sorry for your loss. 

Blue


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## Brodie (Dec 26, 2011)

Leave the guy alone.... There are several members on this site who are guy,Ty of far worse. Myself included.

On a a hot, wet seasons day after cleaning my herps, I accidentally left my curtains open, exposing my herpes tondirect sunlight for about 5 hours. My single thermostat (lazily hooked upnto not one, but two banks of enclosures) decided to fail on the same da. When I returned, literally both banks were full of dead herps. (20+) goannas, elapids and pythons.

At least the guy has shownnthe initiative and strength of mind to learn and share his experiences.

Me? Well, I had a mental breakdown and locked my herp room for the next 3 months.

This bloke deserves your support, not the flaming and abuse typical of aps who have only been keeping a year or two!!!


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## FAY (Dec 26, 2011)

Enough said. I feel this member has more than learnt a hard lesson.


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