# Maggots in my beardie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

I looked through my beardies ears and I saw wiggling worms!!!! Maggots!!! I am panicking! Will he be okay??? There's tonnes and tonnes of them!! Lately we have been letting him catch and eat house flies and I think one must have been pregnant!

Please help what do I do!!!???!!!

He is about 8 months old. Body length is 16.5cm. he usually eats woodies and greens daily.


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## hurcorh (Oct 17, 2011)

i would take him to the vet.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 17, 2011)

Take him to the vet immediately.


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## mad_at_arms (Oct 17, 2011)

I have not heard of that before in beardies.
Is there an odour about his ears? 

Post pics.


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## Justdragons (Oct 17, 2011)

this happened to a doggie of ours but we got it to late and she passed. get to the vet asap to get it flushed or something.. at least to get him/ her painkillers or put to sleep. as bad as it sounds the vet told us its very painful for the animal. best of luck..


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 17, 2011)

Savlon will kill maggotts


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

When we first noticed it there were about 5 visible in each ear. Now we can't see any at all, NONE. Phew. I think he may have just swallowed them down.. maggots only eat dead flesh right? And he is very, very much alive and happy... So he'll be fine right??

No odour in the ears at all. And he is acting normal, and alert as always. Happily running about on the bed.

As I can't see any now, I don't think the vet will be much help. He literally ate the flies minutes before we noticed the wigglers.. Think he just swallowed them..

Should I get him to eat the savlon???


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## saximus (Oct 17, 2011)

You're saying he swallowed them from his ears? I would still suggest a vet but I guess it's your choice


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 17, 2011)

Yeah this isn't really making sense to me either Saximus.


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## Tassie97 (Oct 17, 2011)

Dont let it eat savalon! :shock:


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## thomasbecker (Oct 17, 2011)

Maybe the maggots went further down into his ear....


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

I could see them though the skin in his ears. therefore they were inside his head. We have 2 recomended reptile vets close to us in geelong. Dr Sally Adams
North Geelong Vet Clinic
278 Church Street
North Geelong, VIC 3215
Tel: 03 5278 5400

Dr Anne Fowler BVSc MACVS
Torquay Animal House
120 Geelong Road
Torquay, VIC 3228
Tel: 03 5261 6486

We will call them both and see who we can get an apointment with first. if we have a choice, which is better?


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## Chris1 (Oct 17, 2011)

never heard of this before, just posting so i dont miss the outcome,...

best of luck with ur buddy, i really do hope hes ok!!


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

I called both vets. The Torquay Animal House by the way has no idea about reptiles. We probably should stop reccomending them.. Found them on here - Reptile Vets - Aussie Pythons & Snakes.

The North Geelong one offered me an appointment tomorrow but seeing as the wigglers are no longer visible, i don't see what good it will do having someone else look in his ears..

Both vets said that if he looks healthy, eats, poops and is acting normal and continues to do so, I shouldn't worry, just keep observing him for the next few days.

The only thing I can think that could have happened is that he swallowed a fly full of babies and the babies took a few extra minutes to swallow. I am so never letting him catch flies ever, ever again! This was the scariest thing that has ever happened to us. I guess the kitten is back on Fly-Patrol! He'll be happy.

And he looks excellent by the way, he is a vibrant yellow (he is half yellow phase and is full brown when upset) and is alert, happy and healthy. I will keep you updated on what happens.

Oh and just so no-one think i simply can't be bothered with the vet. I have work anyway and have no one who can take him for me. Which sucks but that is life..


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm no bearded dragon anatomy guru but i cannot see how maggots could get into your animals inner ear via his mouth. 

Unless there is something chronically wrong with your lizards mouth and ears you are either on drugs or saw something that looked similar to maggots and thought the worst.


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> i'm no bearded dragon anatomy guru but i cannot see how maggots could get into your animals inner ear via his mouth.
> 
> Unless there is something chronically wrong with your lizards mouth and ears you are either on drugs or saw something that looked similar to maggots and thought the worst.



pmsl....


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Help me out here, are lizards ear canals connected to their mouths??? Surely not!



Southside Morelia said:


> pmsl....


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## saximus (Oct 17, 2011)

Ours are aren't they. So I guess it's not entirely unreasonable assumption


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## maddog-1979 (Oct 17, 2011)

cant see how it could happen from swallowing a fly...even from the outside , there is a membrane just inside the ear.

i second waruikazi


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Not really. Ours are connected to our nasal passage via the uestachian tube, but it's not a very significant passage for that exact reason. If reptiles do have one i doubt would be anywhere near big enough for a maggot to get through. Let alone a dozen or so and then back out again in a few minutes.



saximus said:


> Ours are aren't they. So I guess it's not entirely unreasonable assumption


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 17, 2011)

Yep I agree with Waruikazi.


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## Flaviruthless (Oct 17, 2011)

Could the maggots have come from a wood roach?


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## mad_at_arms (Oct 17, 2011)

Next time feed it a spider to catch the fly.


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## GeckoRider (Oct 17, 2011)

has anyone thought that maybe they weren't maggots but worms?


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 17, 2011)

> Could the maggots have come from a wood roach?



See that assumption is more reasonable as at least after eggs were layed in the roach there would be time for gestation which just doesn't work with the fly.


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

Yep! Or just the fluid moving around.



GeckoRider said:


> has anyone thought that maybe they weren't maggots but worms?


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## GeckoRider (Oct 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Yep! Or just the fluid moving around.



Or maybe just vains


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

Yeah they could easily have come from a woodie. He eats those daily but the last ones were yesterday and i only noticed them today. Not that i looked yesterday I must admit.

I am not on drugs for the record. The things I saw were about 4mm long by 1.5mm wide and cream coloured, and the 4 or so that I saw appeared to be wiggling inside his head a bit like worms wiggle..

They are not there at the moment and i really really hope they have not gone further dorn into his ear canal.. but maggots ONLY eat dead flesh! If they are maggots i don't see how they will survive very long as my beardie is very, very much alive.

Veins. I like that theory!!! That is very non-life threatening! Kudos to that excellent theory!!!

Oh and he did eat a spider by the way lol.

And if it was worms.. is that better or worse and how do I treat that??


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## waruikazi (Oct 17, 2011)

I've cared for panoptes that have had their wounds become fly blown and survived, just the flesh has to be dead not the whole animal.
So they were under the ear membrane? Like i said, i'm no guru on agamid anatomy but i can't get my head around evolution allowing an ear that lets maggots into it evolve.

Turns out they do have eustachian tubes.
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]*Anatomy
*In reptiles with external ear structures, the tympanic membrane is visible, either nearly contiguous to the surface of the skin (as with iguanids such as the green iguana), or recessed deeper into the head (as with some scincids, such as the blue-tongue skink, and agamids, such as the bearded dragon). The tympanic membrane covers the middle ear cavity. In fact, it is the outer boundary of this cavity which is linked, on its other side to the pharynx and eustachian tube. In general, the inner boundary of the middle ear cavity has two openings. There is a round one, covered by a thin membrane, and, farther back towards the neck, an oval opening which is uncovered. The stapes crosses the middle ear cavity, from the inside of the tympanic membrane, its inner end fitted inside the oval opening. The outer end of the stapes has a cartilage cap which comes into contact with the tympanic membrane. In some reptiles, this cartilage, called the extrastapes, is attached to the quadrate, the primary support of the lower jaw.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Beyond the round and oval openings of the middle ear cavity is the inner ear cavity. Here are located the organs related to balance (the semicircular canals, utricle, and saccule) and hearing (cochlear duct). The cochlear duct and the saccule are both suspended in perilymphatic fluid; the cochlear is also filled with this fluid. The inside of the duct has two specialized regions, the papilla basilaris and the smaller macula lagenae. Both of these areas are actually clusters of sensory cells. These areas also have cilia which are embedded in a membrane within the cochlear duct. These sensory cells give rise to the auditory nerve (the VIIIth cranial nerve).[/FONT]​


Aimees_Dragon said:


> Yeah they could easily have come from a woodie. He eats those daily but the last ones were yesterday and i only noticed them today. Not that i looked yesterday I must admit.
> 
> I am not on drugs for the record. The things I saw were about 4mm long by 1.5mm wide and cream coloured, and the 4 or so that I saw appeared to be wiggling inside his head a bit like worms wiggle..
> 
> ...


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

Sorry I am having trouble understanding all that. Eustachian tubes? Are they what link the mouth and ear?

Ok so I wikipedia'd it and that is apparently correct. So assuming they were wormy/maggoty things.. and they are now gone.. there is a good possibility they got swallowed.

Thanks everyone for your help! I will let you know how he goes.
THANKS!


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 17, 2011)

Let’s just clarify a few things first. The maggots visible through the eardrum were around 3 or 4 mm long and about 1 mm in thickness, correct? I’ll presume that is the case...

*The Eustachian Tube*
Bearded Dragons, just like humans, have a narrow tube connecting the middle ear with the back of the throat – the Eustachian tube. When opened this tube allows air pressure from outside to reach the inside of the ear drum. This equalises the air pressure on both sides of the ear drum. The tube is opened by swallowing or opening your mouth wide. You don’t notice this working unless there is a rapid external change in pressure, like driving up a mountain or taking off in an aeroplane. Try holding your nose and blowing air into your mouth under pressure - you will feel the pressure pushing through your Eustachian tube and making your eardrums pop outwards. 

*Ovoviviparous Flies*
There are numerous fly species that the females retain the eggs until they actually hatch. Consequently they give birth to live young – a mass of wriggling maggots. This includes a number of common fly species associated with human dwellings in Australia. It sounds like the Bearded Dragon ate a pregnant female fly ready to deliver. By crunching it between its teeth the maggots would have been squirted out. As the maggots use moisture to adhere to surfaces, the inside of the mouth would be an ideal travelling environment. No doubt the lizard's tongue helped it to swallow most but sheer weight of numbers would have been against it. Depending on the species and the size of the fly, one batch usually contains anywhere from 40 to 80 maggots. (Don’t quote me there – am working entirely from memory). Some of the little blighters have made their way down the Eustachian tube only to be blocked by the Tympanic Membrane. Without a suitable food source they will simply keep moving until they find their way back into the oral cavity or throat and end up being swallowed. Being non-parasitic, the vets were not concerned. 

Blue


*EDIT: *Sorry. I somehow mised a couple of pages of posts. Not sure it it is because I got distracted while writing this or they were already done and I did not see them. Apologies for the replication of information.


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## -Peter (Oct 17, 2011)

Parasitic worms.


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## Sel (Oct 17, 2011)

Id still go to a vet..very weird


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## crocdoc (Oct 17, 2011)

I was about to respond, but Bluetongue said exactly what I was about to type out. 
1. I've killed some species of blowflies and have seen maggots spilling out of the carcass a short while later. Given that the beardie had just been given a fly, there's a good likelihood the small white worms were maggots from the fly. Did the fly have a large, yellowish coloured abdomen?
2. Lizards have quite transparent tympani and the openings into the eustachian tubes are quite wide, so the possibility is there of being able to see some of the maggots through the tympani if they'd crawled up the tubes.


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks for the info Bluetongue. Yep they were about that size.

Crocdoc: Sorry I didn't notice the abdomen of the fly. It got munched too fast.

THANKS EVERYONE SO MUCH FOR THE HELP!!!
I assure you there will be no more fly-eatings for Nims.

-Aimee.


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## ajandj (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi Aimees, sorry i see your post til now. How is Nim? I hope he's ok. How scarey....i would have thought l was seeing things. Let us kow what happens..
Our best to Nim!!

Jane


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 18, 2011)

I realy would not worry about it. Dragons have been eating flies for a long time before we came on the scene.


For those that are interested, fly maggots are used in the medical treatment of certain ucerating or necrotic wounds to get rid of dead flesh. It was noticed in one of the wars (WW1 or Civil I think) that wounds that became fly blown healed better and more often than eqiuvalent wounds that did not. The maggots also got rid of bacteria, evidently an adaptation to eating decomposing meat.

Blue


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## waruikazi (Oct 18, 2011)

That is true blue but the waste products from the maggots are toxic and cause further infection. That's why animals die from becoming fly blown.


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 18, 2011)

Deleted - not needed.



A couple of general points to clarify...
You cannot accidentally introduce maggots via a live feeder roach (woodie).
The Eustachian tube opens into the pharynx – where the food tube and the airway cross over at the back of the throat and the same length of tube is common to both. (Externally, about the same position as midway between the ear hole and the angle of the jaw.)


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## bowdnboy (Oct 18, 2011)

I thought fly's laid eggs first?

Also would a maggot, that has come from a fly, (before being born) already be 3-4mm long and 1-1.5mm wide? They seem too big.


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## waruikazi (Oct 18, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Waruikazi, *
> If they are not feeding there will be no waste products. The toxins produced in wastes and their effects, depend upon both the species and their diet plus the numbers/biomass involved. Maggots make an excellent food source for reptiles. Check out this how to do it from Danny Brown’s website: http://geckodan.com/articles/Breeding the Bushfly.pdf . I figure he should know if anybody, even though he does not keep Bearded Dragons.



_Bluetongue1
_
I am not talking about using them as food sources, we all know that the majority or inverts make for very good food sources. I am responding to your statement about fly blown wounds healing quicker. An animal or person with a fly blown wound, if left untreated or not medically supervised, will not get better. In most cases they will die, the waste products (however different they are from different species) are toxic and will cause further infection and further dead flesh. 

A fly blown wound on an animal is not a good thing.


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## kawasakirider (Oct 18, 2011)

What would the out one be if the maggots didn't use a food source, died off and began to rot inside the head of the dragon? I'd take it to the vet to get flushed out...


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## PythonLegs (Oct 18, 2011)

When maggots are used in medical applications, the wound site is constantly supervised and kept as close to sterile as is possible, and the maggots are removed once dead flesh is no longer apparent. If left unsupervised the wound will worsen considerably- flesh will constantly 'die' around the wound site as a natural part of the healing process. While it is technically true maggots don't eat living tissue, the process of their feeding causes more flesh to die in the wound site- in fact it's thought maggot waste conatins naturally created ammonia.. these are some reasons why use of maggots is so limited in medical practice, and why it's seen almost as a desperation measure here in aus. 

Also remember the O.P is not talking about medical grade maggots, here- some species, such as screw and blow fly maggots, are highly carnivorous and will attack 'healthy' tissue, and even housefly larve, if it's wild, can easily transfer diseases and parasites. Having said that, if the maggots are no longer visible and the beardie appears healthy, it probably Was just maggots from the mouth and not something you need to wory about. 

Godddam, I need to stop reading bluetongues soapbox posts, it's catching.


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## Bel03 (Oct 18, 2011)

Im a little confused as to where you seen the maggots......in its ears or under the skin......if they were under the skin.......are you sure they were maggots?? If you are positive they are i would be taking it to the vet, whether you can still see them or not, i cant imagine it is normal at any time to see maggots inside your animals head, no matter what it has eaten. Even if they were something else though......if something was visibly alive & moving inside your pet, i wouldnt hesitate to go straight to a vet!


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 18, 2011)

bowdnboy said:


> I thought fly's laid eggs first?
> 
> Also would a maggot, that has come from a fly, (before being born) already be 3-4mm long and 1-1.5mm wide? They seem too big.


No-one actually put a ruler on them, so allowing for the normal over estimation in things sized visually, the answer to your question is YES.


*Kawasakirider* and *Bel744*,

There are a number of possible scenarios. The vet cannot remove a maggot from the middle ear or Eustachian tube without puncturing the ear drum to flush it out. Maggots are active animals, shunning light and seeking food. It’s odds on that any having made their way into the middle ear would make their way back out again because it is a less desirable environment for them than back down the tube.

In the highly unlikely event that one did die in the canal, the inner section of it is self cleaning with mucous draining into the throat. If it died in the middle ear and began to rot, the surrounding tissues would react and become inflamed and painful = an ear ache. Obvious behavioural changes would alert the owner. This would want the vet puncturing the ear drum, syringing and flush the middle ear/tube and probably putting a grommet in place until this settled. Maybe a course of antibiotics as well. 

The vets contacted said not to worry unless there was a change in behaviour. I am just trying to explain the reasoning for this attitude. It’s far and away odds on the animal will require no treatment what-so-ever. If it does, it will quickly be evident and can be dealt with in a straight forward manner. 


*Waruikazi*,
My apologies for that. _*Pythonlegs*_ pretty much covered it. The species utilised for debridement of necrotic wounds is quite specific. Check out the “History of Maggot Therapy” or “Maggot debridement”.


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## bradman (Oct 18, 2011)

Sure its not mites????
I would get your animal to the vet asap,
these things dont just sort themselfs out


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## Justdragons (Oct 18, 2011)

yep the maggots will make the wound much worse and kill what ever they are on. our dog was healthy but got a cut on her head then to the vet but cause it was summer there was alot of flys and she kept running in and out the graden making things worse, and it got worse. then fly blown. all the medication we could give her and a cone on her head and flushing didnt help and she soon had to be put down at the age or 15..


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 18, 2011)

There is a difference between what is commonly termed “fly blown” and what happens when maggots are introduced into dead tissue in a wound. There are specific species of flesh eating flies which will lay in animals like rabbits, sheep, horses, dogs etc. These flies are generally referred to as Bot flies e.g. sheep bot fly. The maggots from these enter through the skin and parasite the animal, eating healthy flesh. The adult flies are attracted to moist smelly areas, such as dung or urine soaked fur. They are also attracted to open wounds. Bot flies often carry nasty bacteria and are known to produce highly toxic wastes.

Not every fly that lands on an animal’s wound is a bot fly. Even so some, but not all, can carry nasty bacteria such as Clostridium and Staphyloccocus. If your animal is unlucky enough to contract an antibiotic resistant strain of these then normal antibiotic treatment is ineffective. If the head area and the brain are affected first up, then they may well be fatal. Although these bugs do exist they not super common. They are like the meningococcal bacteria that can be passed on in saliva and causes a fatal form of meningitis. It is still out there but with people now less inclined to share water bottles etc, you hardly ever hear about it these days.

Blue


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## -Peter (Oct 19, 2011)

*These "maggots" are more likely a parasite that lives in the gut and come up into the throat at certain times, especially feeding. Very common in wild dragons. These could then easily travel to the inner ear.
Something like gapeworm.*


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 25, 2011)

Nims is behaving perfectly fine. Thanks to everyone for the help and concern! He is happy, healthy and a nice beautiful bright yellow!


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## cheddah (Oct 25, 2011)

interesting read. i watched a darkling beetle (t.obscurus) lay eggs on a bearded dragons head the other day.


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## Chris1 (Oct 25, 2011)

thanks for updating this!

my house was full of blowies on the weekend, normally i carry Kaida (beardy) around from window to window to catch them fro me, but was hesitant after your story!

she'll be happy to know she can go back to munching down flies,.....


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## Aimees_Dragon (Oct 31, 2011)

I am still hesitant though. I know what you mean Chris, Nims LOVES them! Occasionally a fly will break into Nims's enclosure and he happily chases it down looking very proud.

I decided to allow it once more about a week ago, and the same thing happened. But the wigglers disappeared again less than 5 minutes later, and Nims was back to his usual self. I am so scared to do it though.. I really don't want to cause him any stress.. though to be honest he is the one causing me stress.. whenever he notices flies in my room he is doing the glass dance to get out and munch them.. I feel so mean not letting him..


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