# Road Killed Monitor-panoptes or gould's?



## salebrosus (Nov 5, 2007)

Driving through a back road near my place, i noticed a dead monitor on the road. The road is only about 80km max and red dirt with lots of rocks. Well someone hit this poor little guy ut on closer inspection we were debating the species, gould's or panoptes. The three books i have here don't help. One book says its a Panoptes, the other says Goulds with the third book saying Panoptes aren't even found here. I'm about an hour and a bit inland from Hervey Bay so i will leave it to the monitor experts to argue over. We've done enough arguing at my place.

Simone.


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## cris (Nov 5, 2007)

I think its panoptes but im not t 100% sure. Panoptes are found in most of the top half of Australia but they were once thought they were gouldi across much of their range so many older books have a very limited range for them. You are definitely within v.panoptes range anyway.

The teeth look the same as what mine have :lol:


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## Australis (Nov 5, 2007)

Based just on the tail cris?


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## salebrosus (Nov 5, 2007)

LOL, well we thought Panoptes when we first found it. Wasn't till we got the books that we weren't sure.

Simone.


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## eerin (Nov 5, 2007)

im sad now!


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## michael-1924 (Nov 5, 2007)

Yes it is a Varanus Penoptes Penoptes Yellow-Spotted Monitor, they have spots all over their back, and l have seen them in North Queensland around places like Mission Beach and Townsville.
Hope this answers everyone question, and its sad to find them killed on the roads, l would prefer to see them moving around in the wild.


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## SnakeWrangler (Nov 5, 2007)

Have you got shot of the end of its tail? According to 'A complete guide to reptiles of Australia' the end of the tail on a gould's is patternless and orange to yellow, where the end of a panoptes tail is pale with dark narrow bands.


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## michael-1924 (Nov 5, 2007)

l don't have any photo's of the Varanus Penoptes Penoptes at all, l saw them way back in the mid 90's, when l was on a holiday in the area.
The Varanus Penoptes Rubidus which is only found in Western Australia, has a plane yellow tail tip also, just like the Varanus Gouldii Gouldii and Varanus Gouldii Flavirufus.
The Varanus Penoptes Penoptes has a plane tail.


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## richardsc (Nov 5, 2007)

i didnt think panoptes was from around hervey bay area,correct me if im wrong though,gouldi can be dark like that along the qld coast.also its back spots are aranged in rows,does look panoptes though but yeah,im leaning towards gouldi


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## richardsc (Nov 5, 2007)

having another look at the piccies,maybe leaning towards panoptes,lol,6 of 1,half a dozen of the other


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## geckodan (Nov 6, 2007)

In your area they are typically quite confusing. They are officially gouldii based on pattern but they are built like brick ****houses and look much like panoptes in size. Varanus panouldii ?????


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## Fuscus (Nov 6, 2007)

my money is on _V. gouldii_ due to the tail pattern and the location. _V. gouldii_ are common in that area. However, large _V. gouldii_ do tend to have dull markings at that size and that was a very brightly colored animal


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## pugsly (Nov 6, 2007)

Poor thing..

Was leaning towards Panoptes based on the spots and those claws! But as for range and seeing some other pics of Gouldii, Im with Fuscus.

Guess it doesn't really matter what it is now...


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## cris (Nov 6, 2007)

Australis said:


> Based just on the tail cris?



No it looks like a gouldii tail, the head sort of look like gouldii too. A very confusing lizard :?


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## JasonL (Nov 6, 2007)

geckodan said:


> In your area they are typically quite confusing. They are officially gouldii based on pattern but they are built like brick ****houses and look much like panoptes in size. Varanus panouldii ?????



I'm with you on that one Dan, def a panouldii


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## junglepython2 (Nov 6, 2007)

Do they ever hybridise in the wild?


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## richardsc (Nov 6, 2007)

well they do readily interbreed in captivity,im back on the gouldi band wagon


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## JasonL (Nov 6, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> Do they ever hybridise in the wild?



wouldn't suprise me at all if they did, and possibly have intergrade zones ect...??


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## inthegrass (Nov 6, 2007)

i tend to think its a gould's goanna.
cheers


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## salebrosus (Nov 6, 2007)

geckodan said:


> In your area they are typically quite confusing. They are officially gouldii based on pattern but they are built like brick ****houses and look much like panoptes in size. Varanus panouldii ?????



Thanks Danny,
I don't feel like such a dumb **** now. This thing was not as slender as a gouldii, all of my books say panoptes are found here except the book on Australian monitors.

Will try and post pics of the tail, but the only shot i caught was when we lifted it up by the tail to take a pic of the underbelly, one of his hemipenes fell out.

Thanks for everyone's opinions.

Simone.


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## salebrosus (Nov 6, 2007)

*More Pics*

The last few shots i took of it,

Simone.


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## Inkslinger (Nov 6, 2007)

My money says Goulds
ref: Varaniod Lizards of the World
Eric R,Planka


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## adder pete (Nov 6, 2007)

i have both sandies and panopties looks like a sandie to me


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## indicus (Nov 6, 2007)

I tend to agree Adder Pete.....


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## Jonno from ERD (Nov 6, 2007)

G'day Simone,

Chalk one up for the V.panoptes vote. You should send some photos to Kieran Aland at the Queensland Museum, he will give you a definite ID.


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## salebrosus (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks a million for that Jonno, i will send the photos along to him, and a big thanks for everyone else with their opinions,

Simone.


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## wheatus (Nov 7, 2007)

My theory is that by using Gillsy' white thong as a sizing scale , it is visable that it is an old monitor,so therefore based on the size, if this was a male panoptes then it would easily be much bigger than the specimen shown in the photo. Most older books show one distribution of gouldii and panoptes covering most of Australia, except the lower, southern half of the country. As for the spotting around the legs, this is common in many areas where gouldii are found. To sum it up, I think its an old male varanus gouldii or just a lump of a sandy.


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## FAY (Nov 7, 2007)

It is most definately a 'boy'.


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

My money is on Gouldii far from an expert though.


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## serpenttongue (Nov 7, 2007)

Few more.


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## pugsly (Nov 7, 2007)

If they are so similar, then what is the 'actual' difference in the two species>?


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## michael-1924 (Nov 7, 2007)

l would have to say its a Varanus Gouldii Gouldii, going by what l can see in the latest photo's posted on here, because its has a yellow tail tip, which is what Varanus Gouldii Gouldii and Varanus Gouldii Flavirufus all have.

The difference between a Varanus Gouldii Gouldii and Varanus Penoptes Penoptes is the size.


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## cris (Nov 7, 2007)

I change my vote to hybrid. The general look of it(body size etc.) looks like panoptes but it has a gouldii tail.

Is there any reason to think it isnt some sort of hybrid atleast to some extent?


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## salebrosus (Nov 7, 2007)

When we first found it, we thought it looked odd so weren't sure if it was gouldii or panoptes. He seemed much more chunky than the average gouldii, but i have had bugger all experience with both species to know which it is. It didn't look like a particularly old animal, i put the size 9 thong in the picture to give some idea how big it was. I'm just happy to sit here and let people debate which species it is so i can have a better idea on these awesome animals.

Simone


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## richardsc (Nov 7, 2007)

im still certain its pure gouldi,in south east qld the coastal gouldis look just like that,around noosa


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## geckodan (Nov 8, 2007)

pugsly said:


> If they are so similar, then what is the 'actual' difference in the two species>?



Shape and arrangement of patterning and chevrons under the neck and belly. Unfortunately the only things we can't see clearly in the pics.


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## pugsly (Nov 8, 2007)

LOL Ah Simone.. come on!

So everything else is pretty much identical then other than some patterning underneath?


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## geckodan (Nov 8, 2007)

They are the most reliable features. Everything else is so variable.


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## Hickson (Nov 8, 2007)

My guess, for what it's worth, is gouldii.



Hix


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## salebrosus (Nov 8, 2007)

pugsly said:


> LOL Ah Simone.. come on!
> 
> So everything else is pretty much identical then other than some patterning underneath?




Well if it's not covered by maggots i'll go and turn it over and take some pics of the belly and throat if that helps.

Simone.


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## pugsly (Nov 8, 2007)

lol

I think its ok.. either way doesnt really matter I guess.. 

Hopefully next time you see a live one and get some shots for us!


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## Chris1 (Nov 8, 2007)

thats so sad.


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## eipper (Nov 8, 2007)

Varanus gouldii


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## salebrosus (Nov 8, 2007)

thanks eipper,

I tried to turn it over at lunch break today, there were thosuands of maggots and the tail came off in my hand, the stench was unbelievable. My stomach is not as strong as it was when i worked as a vet nurse, so no belly pics guys,

Simone


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## pugsly (Nov 8, 2007)

eeeeewwwwwww..... lol


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## dentech (Nov 8, 2007)

i think its the next mcdonalds special burger lol,


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## giganteus (Nov 9, 2007)

Hi All

My first post but the status of panoptes in Queensland is something I've been trying to get a bit of a grasp on for years. I'll share what I think to date but keep in mind my opinion as of now will vary in years to come as I see more specimens in the wild and new things come to light. From what I've seen thus far I break panoptes panoptes into three to four very loose groups or forms in QLD.
Central and far western QLD, examples of these animals are Longreach, Winton, Mt Isa, Boulia, Windorah, Quilpie. In this area they can vary in pattern but are all easily recognized as panoptes, the males are as large as they get and throughout most of that area the overlap with the gouldii complex is with the flavi's a much smaller animal, easy to tell the two apart out there. I should point out at this point that these animals do have a yellow tail tip. The majority of panoptes with banded tail tips are found across the top end of Australia including QLD's cape but most of the rest of Qld's panoptes have a yellow tip. A banded tail tip my prove to rule out gouldii but an unbanded tip certainly does not rule out panoptes. Keep in mind it will probably be about ten to twenty years until some one resolves this and does the taxonomic work.

The panoptes in the Cape are more typical panoptes panoptes like the ones in NT and from what I've seen have a banded tail tip and are big. I believe the smaller animals I have seen there are small panoptes but I can't rule out a very similar looking gouldii, the way the smaller ones live is strange I've seen clusters of burrows on sandy areas with more than one animal present. There's still alot to be learn't, alot of things not mentioned in the literature. 

Around the Brigalow the panoptes can get to be a reasonable size. This is where the forms start to get confusing as these animals look more like a gouldii. What makes it easier is that the gouldii in the brigalow are a typical gouldii which are a much smaller animal and from what I've seen thus far with a barred tail not spots aligned, distinct spots on the fore limbs as opposed to the heavy set forelimbs of panoptes which usually have that yellow colour throughout. The gouldii also lack any pattern under the neck, to date anyway. 

Then there's the coastal panoptes/ gouldii thingy on which many animals have stumped me but I'm beginning to think they are quite similar to the panoptes in the Brigalow. Just the same I'm not going to rule out gouldii from that area or near by areas and the animal in the picture does reasonable a gouldii pattern as they all do in the area but I feel this specimen is more closely related and apart of the panoptes. Based on the size of this male, whilst they don't get as big as their counterparts in other places (or maybe they do I just haven't seen it) they are pushing it for size for gouldii. 
The animal in the picture has the heavy set forelimbs with the yellow throughout -typical panoptes. Has the spots aligned in rows on the tail, not saying gouldii won't have this but they typically have a more barred tail. There is patterning present on the side of the lower neck. It's easier if the pattern extends all the way under the neck a panoptes trait but that's the thing about some of these animals in grey areas like the coast and the Brigalow where the patterning is not as heavy on the neck. Gouldii typically won't have much of anything under the neck. Keep in mind in the future gouldii will probably be split six times across Australia and even flavi possible has a few flying under its banner. 

I'm not an authority on the matter not only haven't I compared anoth specimens or covered anoth miles, I also only have a limited interest in and comprehension of the finer details of taxonomy and leave that to museum staff. At this point in time I don't believe there is an authority on the matter and only compiling information between people will help form a picture until some poor bugger takes on the task.

Pictures always help and things to look for with the animals in the grey areas like the Brigalow and the coast are 
Size, male panoptes get to be large vs smaller gouldii
the forelimbs, heavy set and yellow throughout vs smaller in gouldii
some sort of pattern on the lower neck vs lower neck pattern absent to very faint gouldii
tail, spots aligned in vertical rows vs barred in gouldii
banded tail tip form want is known thus far hopefully rules out gouldii

This is want myself and others I have spoken to have come up with thus far. It will no doubt be out dated in two years and probably changed alot in ten but if you see them in the wild concentrate your comparisons on the areas I've mentioned. At this point they are appear to be the keys to go off. 

It doesn't matter if what is known so far turns out to be wrong including my own thoughts, what matters is only that our knowledge of these animals improves and that if they are different they can be treated accordingly.

If your've read the post, thanks for reading, cheers


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## cris (Nov 9, 2007)

Welcome to the site Giganteus, thanks for a very informative post. You wouldnt happen to have any pics to share of these awesome critters would you?

Where could I find up to date info on this species? 

Also do you think its likely they would hybridise to add to the confusion?


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## salebrosus (Nov 9, 2007)

Hello giganteus,

WOW, what an informative post. Thank you for the advice, i will now know what to concentrate on when i come across another one of these animals.

Welcome to the site and thanks again for your assistance.

Simone.


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## giganteus (Nov 9, 2007)

Simone

Keep an eye help for hatchlings, they are strongly marked and from the couple I've seen in that area have a banded tail tip, a typical gouldii wouldn't have that.

Chris

Don't think you'll find any up to date info. I just gather what I can from what I see and when the opportunity arises to chat to anyone that might shed some light. 
They hybridise them in the states so it could happen but the animal in the pictures wasn't a once off, it was typical for that area. 

Now I'll try some pics that might help, unfortunately I have alot on slide which is no help here but I switched to digital a few years back.

The first is what I'd call a typical goulddi gouldii animal form St George, has the yellow bars on the tail, very distinct yellow tail tip, no real pattern under the neck, doesn't get to be as big as panoptes and lacks the yellow hue right threw the forelimbs and they aren't as heavy set.

The second pic is pretty typical of a panoptes of central QLD, large male, has some pattern under the neck, heavy forelimbs, they are often quite light in colour out there but you can still see the the tail pattern would be spots aligned not bars. 

The third pic again is a typical form for central, western QLD, like with this one when the entire animal isn't yellow the yellow through the forelimbs stands out more.

The last pic, typical pattern, this one as with some others (after having a look thru my pics) lacked a pattern right under the neck but you can see its present on the sides. This one almost had a banded tail tip but most of the central/western ones don't. You'll also note it's stance (tripoding). I used to think gouldii did it but that's when I thought some of these animals were goulds. Currently I'm going to go with only panoptes do it until I see otherwise.

Cheers


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## salebrosus (Nov 9, 2007)

Just some pics,

Simone.


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## salebrosus (Nov 9, 2007)

Some pic of a panoptes my Dad found outside of Longreach (i think it was near there anyway) heading towards Barcaldine.

Simone.


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## giganteus (Nov 10, 2007)

Both panoptes Simone, the one in the pit looks like a QLD animal.

Keep in mind all the stuff I've written is a guide to tell them all apart. 
It's hard to make any rules, I was just looking at some more pics and some gouldii
the yellow bars on the tail are broken down to spots in areas. It's a matter of getting your eye tuned in to see the differences and there can be alot of variation which doesn't help. Finding what I'd call panoptes and flavi in QLD is easy but I only know of a couple of areas where I'd call the animals gouldii gouldii and as far as these animals go I don't know anywhere near anoth about them, alot of guess work in some areas. The reason I posted was I've seen from time to time on forums QLD panoptes being called gouldii so I thought I give a few tips and share what I know.

Cheers


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## salebrosus (Nov 10, 2007)

Thank you,

Simone.


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## pugsly (Nov 13, 2007)

Found a similar thread on ARK. This is what 'Moose' from there noted:

I dont want to stir the applecart at all with this, but i did a little bit of research on the panoptes/Gouldii and this is what i came up with from the Qld Museum Herpetologists, Which i still beleive the monitor i saw was infact Varanus Panoptes and not V. Gouldii... 

Contents of an email i received from the museum. 
"The few obvious differences between Varanus panoptes and V. gouldii are subtle but distinctive. The markings on the throat differ, V. panoptes has dark speckles & small blotches on a pale background but V. gouldii has smokey grey streaks and chevrons on a pale background. If you look at the markings across the back of V. panoptes you should be able to see smallish yellow spots in rows across the back, these spots have a well defined edge. The same markings across the back of V. gouldii tend to be larger and have poorly defined or blurred edges, this character is easiest to see on younger specimens. I find that the extent of banding towards the tip of the tail is not as reliable a character as the two I have outlined above." 

This is the last email i received from the Museum. 
"Your photographs are sufficient to allow an identification. Your goanna is a very healthy Varanus panoptes. If you see any Goanna roadkill have a close look. Once you have seen a few V. gouldii and a few more V. panoptes, the differences between the two species will become easy to pick." 

Was based on different pics, of a different animal, but points out some differences.


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