# Albino Diamond Python?



## nintendont (Jul 13, 2013)

This may rub some people the wrong way but I have been thinking about this a lot and I want answers. I prefer soul-crushing honesty over lies and misleading information just for someone to get-rich-quick.
Once a mutation occurs in a subspecies that already exists in another, is their any way to prove it as pure and not a 
cross? An example (if my maths is right) is this:
Everybody wants an albino diamond right? So if I breed:


Diamond X Albino Darwin (could do now)
=50/50 het X 50/50 het (3 years waiting time)
=Albino 50/50 X Pure Diamond (3 years)
=75% Diamond het X 75% Diamond het (3 years)
=87% Albino Diamonds


That project would take about 9 years (there may be shortcuts I dont really know) and result in (I imagine) pretty pure looking albino diamonds. 
I have only started keeping snakes in the last year or so, so I obviously havnt started this and see little point because somebody is probably near the end of it (I dont even know how long Albino Darwins have been around exactly...) But my point is, how do I know what a seller is claiming to be pure is exactly that and not just a grab for some quick and easy $$$$?
I know I am a cynic, but when it is a subject that I am genuinely interested in, as I'm sure everybody else here is, I think we all deserve to know the truth and have absolutely zero doubt in our minds. I am not sure how some users dont stop to ask these questions and instead give congratulations and flame on cynics like myself.


I guess in summary, I just want to know when the first albino diamond python (or jungle, or any other subspecies) 
emerges from the woodwork in years to come, how do I know that it is not just a product of cross-breeding like I illustrated in the second paragraph? Or do I just have to shut my virtual mouth and believe everything that anybody claims to be true?


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## MesseNoire (Jul 13, 2013)

Lots of research I guess. If you had said opportunity to buy an albino diamond or jungle, why not post a thread here asking if they're established or even pming some of the senior members,

I read a thread a while ago about the process you described and if I remember correctly once crossed it will be impossible to completely remove one species from the pool.


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## Chris1 (Jul 13, 2013)

wouldnt 75% diamond het X 75% diamond het only equal 75% albino diamond? (not that thats really the point of the thread)


Interesting question, i read that thread too fractal man, i think it got up to 99% pure after 10 generations or something, i guess not even DNA testing would pick up a mixed animal from a real exciting new morph by then.

it would be a real shame if in 10 years time someone really did get lucky enough to produce albino diamonds and no one believed them!!


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## wokka (Jul 13, 2013)

Work out how many animals you would be feeding and housing with all those unproven possible hets. It would be a very beneficial project for Rodent breeders!
Places like Snake ranch, who already have true Albino diamond would beat you to the post without compromising their integrity, at the same time


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## junglepython2 (Jul 13, 2013)

Snake ranch have an albino diamond? How did I miss that! Or do you mean the hypo that they posted?


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## Chris1 (Jul 13, 2013)

wokka said:


> Places like Snake ranch, who already have true Albino diamond would beat you to the post without compromising their integrity, at the same time



is that the really pale one on the FB page??
I didnt realise that was considered an albino, unless ive missed something even more exciting!!.


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## Chris1 (Jul 13, 2013)

oops, JP beat me,..by seconds!!!


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## RedFox (Jul 13, 2013)

Since albino Darwin appeared they have being crossed with just about if not all subspecies. The only way to ensure purity of a subspecies is for previous breedings to be documented, even then it comes down to trust. 

I am interested to see when the website documenting the pure coastal albino that was recently posted on another forum is up and running.


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## solar 17 (Jul 13, 2013)

One question l have on this subject: Has anybody sequenced the DNA to prove one way or another if its a Diamond 100% ? and part B to this question is as l believe it to be there is only one place in Australia that is accredited/able to and as l believe to be the case they are not interested in these cases.....solar 17


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 13, 2013)

nintendont said:


> This may rub some people the wrong way but I have been thinking about this a lot and I want answers. I prefer soul-crushing honesty over lies and misleading information just for someone to get-rich-quick.
> Once a mutation occurs in a subspecies that already exists in another, is their any way to prove it as pure and not a
> cross? An example (if my maths is right) is this:
> Everybody wants an albino diamond right? So if I breed:
> ...


I would wait until someone proves out the paradox Albinos before even bothering


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## wokka (Jul 13, 2013)

That is how rumours start. I dont know if SR has an Albino diamond. i probably confused their RBB and a hypo diamond.


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## nintendont (Jul 13, 2013)

I think people missed the point of the question (except for Redfox) I was really just using an albino diamond as an example. I really wanted to know how any albino morelia spilota could be proven pure and not traced back to an albino darwin, but I think my fears have been realised and it is not an easy thing to do and if it true Redfox, that some trust is required, then I have no excitement left for future albino subspecies. People will do anything for money and in this case there is a lot of money to be made, in my opinion: in a fraudulent way that noone can even prove. I only trust myself and family members (most anyway lol) and I think that is a safe way to live life.
Bring on a Piebald jungle python or a Hyper scrubbie and I will have no doubts though...hmmm pied jungle...how good would that be....hmmm


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## sharky (Jul 13, 2013)

No, you couldn't. Through generations and generations of breeding the darwnXdiamond babies back to pure diamonds, you will never have a 100% diamond. It will always be DiamondXDarwin. If you are patient enough you could probably get a 99.9% albino diamond from this cross, but never a pure one. If that makes sense?


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 13, 2013)

about piebalds, again that goes back to a paradox, also called a chimera animal, its unproven in carpets atm, but likely to be a fusion between twins still developing in the egg and only one animal hatched with two different genetic traits, i.e partial luecism or paradox albino


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## nintendont (Jul 13, 2013)

sharkyy1o5 said:


> No, you couldn't. Through generations and generations of breeding the darwnXdiamond babies back to pure diamonds, you will never have a 100% diamond. It will always be DiamondXDarwin. If you are patient enough you could probably get a 99.9% albino diamond from this cross, but never a pure one. If that makes sense?


another miss. I am aware the diamond cross albinos will never be pure. the question is basically: is there a way to tell apart a 99% albino diamond and an actual pure albino diamond and it is looking like something that just cant be proved and I just have to shut up and believe anything anyone wants to spoon feed me. For the record I dont have my doubts about projects like the albino RBB because it is obviously an albino RBB but when it comes to these subspecies of an already existing mutation, that most people probably wouldnt care about crossing because apperently they are basically the same snake genetically, I will forever remain a pessimist.


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## nintendont (Jul 13, 2013)

wokka said:


> Work out how many animals you would be feeding and housing with all those unproven possible hets. It would be a very beneficial project for Rodent breeders!
> Places like Snake ranch, who already have true Albino diamond would beat you to the post without compromising their integrity, at the same time


ummm...the 50/50 refers to the ratio of diamond to darwin and they would all be 100% hets used in that example so no possible hets as far as I know...but you guys are all the experienced breeders and know more than me!


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## junglepython2 (Jul 13, 2013)

nintendont said:


> I think people missed the point of the question (except for Redfox) I was really just using an albino diamond as an example. I really wanted to know how any albino morelia spilota could be proven pure and not traced back to an albino darwin, but I think my fears have been realised and it is not an easy thing to do and if it true Redfox, that some trust is required, then I have no excitement left for future albino subspecies. People will do anything for money and in this case there is a lot of money to be made, in my opinion: in a fraudulent way that noone can even prove. I only trust myself and family members (most anyway lol) and I think that is a safe way to live life.
> Bring on a Piebald jungle python or a Hyper scrubbie and I will have no doubts though...hmmm pied jungle...how good would that be....hmmm


To answer your question it would be impossible to tell if it was pure or not, all you have is the word of the seller and hopefully a well documented lineage, which wouldn't be all that hard to fake. DNA testing would be next to useless. I see where you are coming from and I doubt I would fully trust any albino Morelia other then Darwins unless it was proven to be wild caught. The only way that I can see another albino Morelia subspecies being widely accepted as pure is if the new albino was due to a different allele to the ones in Darwins.


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## andynic07 (Jul 13, 2013)

Would it really matter if a diamond was crossed with an albino Darwin to produce a diamond albino? It seems that jags are crossed with everything and accepted and diamonds are crossed with a lot of other sub species and accepted.


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## nintendont (Jul 13, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> To answer your question it would be impossible to tell if it was pure or not, all you have is the word of the seller and hopefully a well documented lineage, which wouldn't be all that hard to fake. DNA testing would be next to useless. I see where you are coming from and I doubt I would fully trust any albino Morelia other then Darwins unless it was proven to be wild caught. The only way that I can see another albino Morelia subspecies being widely accepted as pure is if the new albino was due to a different allele to the ones in Darwins.


Thankyou, this was what I what I was after from the beginning.


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## cement (Jul 13, 2013)

All albino morphs that i know of originate from the wild. They are found, caught, put on the books and welcomed to the hobby.
Any albino morelia, diamond or other, that comes from captivity, except now for Darwins, would be a hoax.
My own ideas about an albino diamond, are that yeah its possible, but, seeing as diamonds would spend more time exposed to the sun then other sub species of morelia, and melanin is natures sunblock, that they would perish young.


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## RedFox (Jul 13, 2013)

cement said:


> All albino morphs that i know of originate from the wild. They are found, caught, put on the books and welcomed to the hobby.
> Any albino morelia, diamond or other, that comes from captivity, except now for Darwins, would be a hoax.
> My own ideas about an albino diamond, are that yeah its possible, but, seeing as diamonds would spend more time exposed to the sun then other sub species of morelia, and melanin is natures sunblock, that they would perish young.



I was under the impression albino northern death adders originated in captivity. ??? But yes I very much agree with your point.


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## Ramsayi (Jul 14, 2013)

cement said:


> My own ideas about an albino diamond, are that yeah its possible, but, seeing as diamonds would spend more time exposed to the sun then other sub species of morelia, and melanin is natures sunblock, that they would perish young.



Why do you think that diamonds would spend more time in the sun than say darwins? If anything darwins would be exposed to more sunshine and UV than any southern type Morelia.


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## GeckoJosh (Jul 14, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Why do you think that diamonds would spend more time in the sun than say darwins? If anything darwins would be exposed to more sunshine and UV than any southern type Morelia.



I guess the argument would come down to that a cooler climate would make a python more inclined to bask than one in a warmer area?


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## PimmsPythons (Jul 14, 2013)

i think being exposed to sunlight would be the least of their worries.they would be picked off by predators before sun damage takes effect


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## cement (Jul 14, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Why do you think that diamonds would spend more time in the sun than say darwins? If anything darwins would be exposed to more sunshine and UV than any southern type Morelia.



Its only my point of view, I think this because of our ambient temps down here as opposed to the ambient temps of the tropics. Wild darwins can be at their optimum body temps quite easily without even going in the sun, and basking in the morning would get them there before the sun got too fierce.
Wild diamonds have to seek out the full sun, and will bask for the whole day quite often. I can only imagine that an albino mutation would be detrimental to a python that relies on so much solar radiation. Only my thoughts.
I was in FNQ in spring and the nights were 30degrees. Down here in spring the diamonds are congregating in groups and mating all day in the full sun. The females especially seek longer periods in the sun at this time of year too, for obvious reasons.


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## Jacknife (Jul 14, 2013)

I personally just can't see the hype with wanting albinos of every morelia species. To me the wonderful thing about them is the range of colours and patterns throughout the species, yet many people are obsessed with trying to make them all albino and essentially looking exactly the same. Kinda seems backwards to me...


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## Exotic_Doc (Jul 14, 2013)

Wait im abit lost. Snake ranch have an albino? I have been away overseas for a long time so i need updating lol. I cant see it on their fb there is only the Gosford diamond?


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## nintendont (Jul 14, 2013)

Badsville said:


> I personally just can't see the hype with wanting albinos of every morelia species. To me the wonderful thing about them is the range of colours and patterns throughout the species, yet many people are obsessed with trying to make them all albino and essentially looking exactly the same. Kinda seems backwards to me...


they wouldnt all look the same. the different patterns of each subspecies would show through in an albino in varying amounts of oranges and other tones i guess.


Exotic_Doc said:


> Wait im abit lost. Snake ranch have an albino? I have been away overseas for a long time so i need updating lol. I cant see it on their fb there is only the Gosford diamond?


This thread has made me realise that just because some users have a high post count, it doesnt necessarily mean that they know what they are talking about.


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## hulloosenator (Jul 14, 2013)

i reckon x breeding is all about what you get the end product to look like ......... there is no way they can be introduced into the wild , so , do what you like , and if it looks like an albino diamond, then it is an albino diamond. It depends on if you want to breed them or not. 
If you are a purist and think you are buying a 99.999999999999 % albino instead of a 100% , then dont buy it ! ...... geeeeez you people on here make me laugh.


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## Exotic_Doc (Jul 14, 2013)

nintendont said:


> they wouldnt all look the same. the different patterns of each subspecies would show through in an albino in varying amounts of oranges and other tones i guess.
> 
> This thread has made me realise that just because some users have a high post count, it doesnt necessarily mean that they know what they are talking about.



And what did i say that made you come to that conclusion?? I wasnt giving any piece of information. Just asking a question...


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## Norm (Jul 14, 2013)

I for one would be interested in owning an albino diamond and I wouldn't really care if it was pure or not because I wouldn't be naive enough to believe it was. If it looked good and was healthy I'd like to have it for what it is, not what it could be. Of course if it was 100% pure that would be the even better.
I hadn't ever paid much attention to albinos until I got mine, then I started checking them out more and realised that they have a hell of a lot of variation in colour and pattern, just different colours to standard animals.


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## solar 17 (Jul 15, 2013)

cement said:


> All albino morphs that i know of originate from the wild. They are found, caught, put on the books and welcomed to the hobby.
> Any albino morelia, diamond or other, that comes from captivity, except now for Darwins, would be a hoax.
> My own ideas about an albino diamond, are that yeah its possible, but, seeing as diamonds would spend more time exposed to the sun then other sub species of morelia, and melanin is natures sunblock, that they would perish young.


As for albinos only coming from the wild or being a hoax, well l am not so sure as last season l know of "1st hand" where there are three clutches of stimmies with three different keepers that produced two clutches of radical looking piebalds and one of pale pink (close to white) and all pure stimmies, while these aren,t albinos they are something close to or dare l say it probably better than albinos....solar 17


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## Ramsayi (Jul 15, 2013)

Norm said:


> I for one would be interested in owning an albino diamond and I wouldn't really care if it was pure or not because I wouldn't be naive enough to believe it was



Well if it wasn't pure then it couldn't be an albino diamond


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## Norm (Jul 15, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Well if it wasn't pure then it couldn't be an albino diamond



Ok I'll rephrase that, an albino with diamond pattern. You knew what I meant.


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## Red-Ink (Jul 15, 2013)

solar 17 said:


> As for albinos only coming from the wild or being a hoax, well l am not so sure as last season l know of "1st hand" where there are three clutches of stimmies with three different keepers that produced two clutches of radical looking piebalds and one of pale pink (close to white) and all pure stimmies, while these aren,t albinos they are something close to or dare l say it probably better than albinos....solar 17



Yeah... the line starts behind me right?


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## cement (Jul 15, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> i reckon x breeding is all about what you get the end product to look like ......... there is no way they can be introduced into the wild , so , do what you like , and if it looks like an albino diamond, then it is an albino diamond. It depends on if you want to breed them or not.
> If you are a purist and think you are buying a 99.999999999999 % albino instead of a 100% , then dont buy it ! ...... geeeeez you people on here make me laugh.



Can you explain what u mean by "no way they can be introduced into the wild"?.
Only asking because the last few years I have seen plenty of non local varieties of python doing quite well in the wild, and i see no reason why an escaped or released diamond wouldn't do well in qld.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 7, 2013)

What would an albino diamond be worth and I mean true albino not crossbred. Lineage DNA as well as documented breeding records


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## bk201 (Aug 7, 2013)

solar 17 said:


> As for albinos only coming from the wild or being a hoax, well l am not so sure as last season l know of "1st hand" where there are three clutches of stimmies with three different keepers that produced two clutches of radical looking piebalds and one of pale pink (close to white) and all pure stimmies, while these aren,t albinos they are something close to or dare l say it probably better than albinos....solar 17




I heard they went for a nice price too some lucky people last season.


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## champagne (Aug 8, 2013)

the problem is once a sub species reaches 3rd or 4th generation cross back you cant tell if its pure or not and people have been crossing since the first albino darwins were released. DNA will be no help as you cant even tell pure sub species apart let alone a 87.5% diamond and 12.5% coastal.


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## paultheo (Aug 8, 2013)

even if they were proven mixed blood albinos a heap of people from the hobby(some major breeders included- just think jag) would jump on them, if they prove to be popular then they would be as common as darwin albinos in 10yrs. Just being a realist.


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