# Obsessed with ball pythons



## pythong (Jul 10, 2014)

Hi all, I've fallen in love with the ball python but I have no idea where to start and how hard it would be to import one from the US as I haven't heard of or seen anyone in Australia with them. Any info would be greatly appreciated on how to go about it
cheers


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Jul 10, 2014)

pythong said:


> Hi all, I've fallen in love with the ball python but I have no idea where to start and how hard it would be to import one from the US as I haven't heard of or seen anyone in Australia with them. Any info would be greatly appreciated on how to go about it
> cheers


Legally we can only keep natives here in Australia, unless you own a zoo and spend thousands of dollars on licenses. Of course some people keep them illegally here.


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## Gizmo101 (Jul 10, 2014)

Unfortunately in Australia exotics are a no go for the average license holder, you can get your hands on them but if you get caught will face fines and having your animals seized. 
Have a look at the Australian species, we have some of the worlds most beautiful pythons and if you get a license and do it all right at no risk of fines or losing your animal due to seizure. Most Australian species are fairly easy to get a hold of too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cridon96 (Jul 10, 2014)

Cold-B-Hearts said:


> Legally we can only keep natives here in Australia, unless you own a zoo and spend thousands of dollars on licenses. Of course some people keep them illegally here.



In other words unless you plan on breaking the law it would be easier to move to them than it is to bring one here


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## Jacknife (Jul 10, 2014)

Plus, as I'm sure most people on here would agree, the natives you can legally keep far outstrip any other pythons in the world by miles(or kms)


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## champagne (Jul 10, 2014)

The morphs that are popping up in Australian pythons are growing, if that's what appeals to you about ball pythons. I never understand the ball python craze, exotic wise give me a tree viper or boa any day over a ball python but each to their own.

- - - Updated - - -

Only one pair of spotted hets for me this year, I wanted a break and waiting to get some more size on a few things. I personally don't produce huge numbers because if you want to produce nice lines and prove genetics out, you have to hold back whole clutches


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## Jacknife (Jul 10, 2014)

champagne said:


> Only one pair of spotted hets for me this year, I wanted a break and waiting to get some more size on a few things. I personally don't produce huge numbers because* if you want to produce nice lines and prove genetics out, you have to hold back whole clutches*



Once again you're writing things which are entirely untrue.
Infact most breeders pretty much never hold back entire clutches.
Proving out genetic traits and lines are usually based on clearly visible morphs. 
You could only know if it was a proper gene morph or not after breeding back the animals which did show the trait, you wouldn't breed them to the possible hets as your odds on getting a winner are of a much smaller percentage and you'd have a lot more not gene carrying animals. You'd breed back to the parents. And if it turns out not to be a heterozygous possible trait, then you're just left with a whole lot of unnecessary animals. Not smart breeding business.
Most morph based breeders breed 3 - 4 generations before they come out and 100% confidently announce their lines and morphs. can you imagine all the excess stock they had if they held back entire clutches to do this?

As you state above yourself, you're only breeding two hets. Your results will be 25% of what you're breeding for, and the rest of the clutch is going to be 66% possible het. Are you holding on to all those 66%ers for 2-3 years to breed them for possibility!? I think not.
You hold on to the 25% of the clutch that came out how you desire and you breed them for a 100% clutch next generation.

Please think and use basic logic before posting. And as a self proclaimed breeder I recommend you getting a better understanding of line genetics too...


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## champagne (Jul 11, 2014)

Jacknife said:


> Once again you're writing things which are entirely untrue.
> Infact most breeders pretty much never hold back entire clutches.
> Proving out genetic traits and lines are usually based on clearly visible morphs.
> You could only know if it was a proper gene morph or not after breeding back the animals which did show the trait, you wouldn't breed them to the possible hets as your odds on getting a winner are of a much smaller percentage and you'd have a lot more not gene carrying animals. You'd breed back to the parents. And if it turns out not to be a heterozygous possible trait, then you're just left with a whole lot of unnecessary animals. Not smart breeding business.
> ...



Yeah I am not sure where I stated I'm a self proclaimed breeder? And I am actually keeping back the whole clutch so... And like I said breeders with high quality lines do keep back whole clutches to see how the develop... If you had any idea you would know that a python continues to change and won't have its final "adult" colour until they are 2 to 3 years. So snakes that look gorgeous at 12months can muddie out by 3 years so why would you wastes generation using this animal? Even if you don't personally know any breeders with quality lines, there are quiet a few larger breeders that publicly say they keep back whole clutches and that it is the only way to produce a high quality lines that produce whole clutches of high quality animals... Just showing how little you actually know about line genetics... You breed the best to the best, so how do you choose the best if you don't grow them out? Your one of those breeders that sells the animal that turns out to be better then your whole project... Lol


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## Jacknife (Jul 11, 2014)

champagne said:


> Yeah I am not sure where I stated I'm a self proclaimed breeder? And I am actually keeping back the whole clutch so... And like I said breeders with high quality lines do keep back whole clutches to see how the develop... If you had any idea you would know that a python continues to change and won't have its final "adult" colour until they are 2 to 3 years. So snakes that look gorgeous at 12months can muddie out by 3 years so why would you wastes generation using this animal? Even if you don't personally know any breeders with quality lines, there are quiet a few larger breeders that publicly say they keep back whole clutches and that it is the only way to produce a high quality lines that produce whole clutches of high quality animals... Just showing how little you actually know about line genetics... You breed the best to the best, so how do you choose the best if you don't grow them out? Your one of those breeders that sells the animal that turns out to be better then your whole project... Lol



I don't breed, never have; and have never once ever mentioned on here that I am or have ever bred. 
Once again your assumptions are betraying your ignorance. And don't start babbling on about what the hell would I know if I'm not a breeder. I have extensive education in biology, genetics and what most people including yourself seem to lack, common sense and logic.
And holding onto entire clutches that do turn out to be nothing after 2 -3 years, how is that sensible or profitable business as a breeder? Tell me that one genius?


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## Planky (Jul 12, 2014)

Have to disagree jack I know of people who will keep 4/5 from a clutch and unfortunently the remainders get put down if your working of something huge you dont let the "muddy" ones go


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## kitten_pheonix (Jul 12, 2014)

I dont see what any of that has to do with the OP wanting ball pythons?


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## Stewjoe (Jul 12, 2014)

Ball pythons are boring, they just hide 23 1/2 or more hours a day. I legally have access to all kinds of cheap BP morphs but I keep Indo/Aussie instead.


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## Jacknife (Jul 12, 2014)

Euthing them makes sense, though that is entirely not what [MENTION=36789]champagne[/MENTION] made claims of...


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## Gaboon (Jul 12, 2014)

Jacknife said:


> Plus, as I'm sure most people on here would agree, the natives you can legally keep far outstrip any other pythons in the world by miles(or kms)



Natives suck. 

You have Crazy morph massive sized retics (blue eyed Lucy, black golden child etc , ball python morphs, blood pythons which are heavy bodied but medium sized snakes, huge burmese morphs (granits, albino green, pied Lucys) not to mention Non python species like albino snow hog nose snakes (LOL), snow boas, black boas etc albino milk snakes that are bright red and white, charmillians which have fricken horns and change color, come on. You have Tagus and rhino iguanas that dont even look like lizards and make bearded dragons look like garden skinks. Not to mention land Tortoises and snapping turtles that look insane and more. At the end of the day these local specific ants etc Dont mean anything it just comes down to what's most mind blowing to look at. Even pied stimmies arnt that good. Albino scrub pythons and albino womas might change things but over seas will have those aswell in the blink of an eye anyway, so Australia is nothing special. Best thing you could mention is over seas talking about local specific ants and carpets like its a big deal but at the end of the day, who cares. It comes down to who's got the most bezare looking wow factor animal which you could most likely achieve by keeping whole clutches back which would be the best idea because your keeping back more of the same blood line you'd have to line breed. The more you line breed of the same line, the more combos of matings your line up, the more likely youl get the trait your breeding for. Alot of people keep whole clutches back, it's a very common thing. People arnt stupid if they have anything decent, they won't want to share or let any of it out of their sights. These are snakes were talking about. You keep them in tubs not stables or yards so its not that difficult.


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## Beans (Jul 12, 2014)

Gaboon said:


> Natives suck.
> 
> You have Crazy morph massive sized retics (blue eyed Lucy, black golden child etc , ball python morphs, blood pythons which are heavy bodied but medium sized snakes, huge burmese morphs (granits, albino green, pied Lucys) not to mention Non python species like albino snow hog nose snakes (LOL), snow boas, black boas etc albino milk snakes that are bright red and white, charmillians which have fricken horns and change color, come on. You have Tagus and rhino iguanas that dont even look like lizards and make bearded dragons look like garden skinks. Not to mention land Tortoises and snapping turtles that look insane and more. At the end of the day these local specific ants etc Dont mean anything it just comes down to what's most mind blowing to look at. Even pied stimmies arnt that good. Albino scrub pythons and albino womas might change things but over seas will have those aswell in the blink of an eye anyway, so Australia is nothing special. Best thing you could mention is over seas talking about local specific ants and carpets like its a big deal but at the end of the day, who cares. It comes down to who's got the most bezare looking wow factor animal which you could most likely achieve by keeping whole clutches back which would be the best idea because your keeping back more of the same blood line you'd have to line breed. The more you line breed of the same line, the more combos of matings your line up, the more likely youl get the trait your breeding for. Alot of people keep whole clutches back, it's a very common thing. People arnt stupid if they have anything decent, they won't want to share or let any of it out of their sights. These are snakes were talking about. You keep them in tubs not stables or yards so its not that difficult.



I disagree. I think our natives are beautiful, we also have the smallest python in the world which is the pygmy python. We also have one of the most deadly snakes, the taipan aswell. I really love our native wildlife, and it's sad that you fail to appreciate the beautiful simplicity of some truly beautiful animals.


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## Gaboon (Jul 12, 2014)

Beans said:


> I disagree. I think our natives are beautiful, we also have the smallest python in the world which is the pygmy python. We also have one of the most deadly snakes, the taipan aswell. I really love our native wildlife, and it's sad that you fail to appreciate the beautiful simplicity of some truly beautiful animals.




Taipan? The gaboon viper has 3 inch fangs to penetrate closer if not directly into the heart of it's prey. Compared to over seas animals Australia reptiles arn't that special at all, although obviously roughies, oenpelli, ant hill etc are extremely unique and special in their own way, over all compared to the animals over seas Aussie herps are boring. Over seas herps are a freak show that shouldn't be compared to aussie herps. Bias opions, people here kid them selfs when it comes to this topic, it's funny. And they have almost all our animals anyway.


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## beastcreature (Jul 12, 2014)

Gaboon said:


> it just comes down to what's most mind blowing to look at.



That in a nutshell is what's wrong with animal hobbies as a whole, this misguided ideology that captive animals are here to satisfy our twisted obsession with mutation.


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## disintegratus (Jul 12, 2014)

Gaboon said:


> Taipan? The gaboon viper has 3 inch fangs to penetrate closer if not directly into the heart of it's prey. Compared to over seas animals Australia reptiles arn't that special at all, although obviously roughies, oenpelli, ant hill etc are extremely unique and special in their own way, over all compared to the animals over seas Aussie herps are boring. *Over seas herps are a freak show that shouldn't be compared to aussie herps*. Bias opions, people here kid them selfs when it comes to this topic, it's funny. And they have almost all our animals anyway.



This I agree with, but you seem to have the impression that aiming to grow an animal that's malformed and unnatural is a good thing. Nothing beats a wildtype. They are exactly what they've evolved to be, how could we possibly make them better? More to the point, why would you want to?


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## Beans (Jul 13, 2014)

Gaboon said:


> Taipan? The gaboon viper has 3 inch fangs to penetrate closer if not directly into the heart of it's prey. Compared to over seas animals Australia reptiles arn't that special at all, although obviously roughies, oenpelli, ant hill etc are extremely unique and special in their own way, over all compared to the animals over seas Aussie herps are boring. Over seas herps are a freak show that shouldn't be compared to aussie herps. Bias opions, people here kid them selfs when it comes to this topic, it's funny. And they have almost all our animals anyway.



Please re-read what I said. I said we have one of the most dangerous, the inland taipan. I never said anything about it being the MOST deadly. And I'm not talking about how far the fangs can penetrate I'm talking about the leathality of its venom. 

If you think our reptiles are so boring you're welcome to leave this thread or even forum, and stop bashing our natives.


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## Gaboon (Jul 13, 2014)

Beans said:


> Please re-read what I said. I said we have one of the most dangerous, the inland taipan. I never said anything about it being the MOST deadly. And I'm not talking about how far the fangs can penetrate I'm talking about the leathality of its venom.




Australia technically has the most potent snake, wow. Theirs ani venom, communication and helicopters every where. Amagine being stuck in the middle of no where in Africa with black mambas or saw scaled vipers or in India, that's going to make their snakes even more dangerous. How many mice a snakes venom can kill means nothing, how about over all deaths, that's what makes a snake the most deadly in the world in my books. I know that's what your using in your side of the argument right now, true. But think about it. The persons body proberly wouldn't even be recovered and they just leave you there in Africa that's more terrifying then your beloved taipan. You wouldn't even come in contact with a taipan unless you looked for it, people over seas need to pick rice getting paid nothing with grass invested with venomous snakes, come on. And how many dry bites would those small fangs give with taipans, I saw some idiots on utube trying to milk a Gaboon viper and the fang went through the snakes bottom of it's mouth and into the guys hand and you have people milking taipans with ease and not many deaths. 


No hard feelings miss we're just talking about snakes, I do keep aussie herps and no exotics but if it came down to it overseas animals are much more spectacular and you could say Aussie herps do suck but only in comparison. by them selfs in general, they do not suck. 



disintegratus said:


> This I agree with, but you seem to have the impression that aiming to grow an animal that's malformed and unnatural is a good thing. Nothing beats a wildtype. They are exactly what they've evolved to be, how could we possibly make them better? More to the point, why would you want to?




They arn't nessiserly malformed or unatural, all most mutations are is a little pigment catastrophe, theirs nothing wrong with that the snakes are healthy as a wild type for the most part unless your talking about certain genes that give Neuro issues like in some ball python and carpet morphs, those IMO shouldn't be bred. "Nothing beats a wild type" ok fair enough.


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## RedFox (Jul 13, 2014)

@Gaboon as you said earlier overseas herps should not be compared to aussie herps. Some people on this thread prefer natives, some prefer exotics. Maybe time to stop being argumentative... I for one am happy we have the health system that allows us to coexist with some extremely venomous snakes without the fear of death that is present in many countries overseas, although I fail to see that that has to do with the original question or linebreeding for traits.


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## coastals (Jul 13, 2014)

Planky said:


> Have to disagree jack I know of people who will keep 4/5 from a clutch and unfortunently the remainders get put down if your working of something huge you dont let the "muddy" ones go



I agree with what you are saying and some breeders do choose to cull but a lot hold back entire clutches. @Jacknife have a chat with Damien (reptile connexion) because I remember hearing him say he holds back whole clutches, when working on line or unknown genetic projects. Actually if I remember correctly marnice, peter and Troy all said they do the same, it was discussed on australian reptile radio.

- - - Updated - - -



Gaboon said:


> Australia technically has the most potent snake, wow. Theirs ani venom, communication and helicopters every where. Amagine being stuck in the middle of no where in Africa with black mambas or saw scaled vipers or in India, that's going to make their snakes even more dangerous. How many mice a snakes venom can kill means nothing, how about over all deaths, that's what makes a snake the most deadly in the world in my books. I know that's what your using in your side of the argument right now, true. But think about it. The persons body proberly wouldn't even be recovered and they just leave you there in Africa that's more terrifying then your beloved taipan. You wouldn't even come in contact with a taipan unless you looked for it, people over seas need to pick rice getting paid nothing with grass invested with venomous snakes, come on. And how many dry bites would those small fangs give with taipans, I saw some idiots on utube trying to milk a Gaboon viper and the fang went through the snakes bottom of it's mouth and into the guys hand and you have people milking taipans with ease and not many deaths.



The deadliest snake discussion never ends in agreement but how can you compare snake bite deaths in a third world country to Australia's snake bite death rate? I think you have to compare toxicity not ability to get anti venom. I'm sure there are a lot of things that kills more people in Africa and India because they can't get to medical help, compared to the same thing in Australia.


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## Gaboon (Jul 13, 2014)

coastals said:


> The deadliest snake discussion never ends in agreement but how can you compare snake bite deaths in a third world country to Australia's snake bite death rate? I think you have to compare toxicity not ability to get anti venom. I'm sure there are a lot of things that kills more people in Africa and India because they can't get to medical help, compared to the same thing in Australia.



With Antivenom so available and transportation so attainable, I think the taipan is one of the least deadliest snakes on earth. Harmless in some cases with antivenom in the same room, although it would still be a nasty event.


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## Jacknife (Jul 13, 2014)

Gaboon said:


> Natives suck.
> 
> You have Crazy morph massive sized retics (blue eyed Lucy, black golden child etc , ball python morphs, blood pythons which are heavy bodied but medium sized snakes, huge burmese morphs (granits, albino green, pied Lucys) not to mention Non python species like albino snow hog nose snakes (LOL), snow boas, black boas etc albino milk snakes that are bright red and white, charmillians which have fricken horns and change color, come on. You have Tagus and rhino iguanas that dont even look like lizards and make bearded dragons look like garden skinks. Not to mention land Tortoises and snapping turtles that look insane and more. At the end of the day these local specific ants etc Dont mean anything it just comes down to what's most mind blowing to look at. Even pied stimmies arnt that good. Albino scrub pythons and albino womas might change things but over seas will have those aswell in the blink of an eye anyway, so Australia is nothing special. Best thing you could mention is over seas talking about local specific ants and carpets like its a big deal but at the end of the day, who cares. It comes down to who's got the most bezare looking wow factor animal which you could most likely achieve by keeping whole clutches back which would be the best idea because your keeping back more of the same blood line you'd have to line breed. The more you line breed of the same line, the more combos of matings your line up, the more likely youl get the trait your breeding for. Alot of people keep whole clutches back, it's a very common thing. People arnt stupid if they have anything decent, they won't want to share or let any of it out of their sights. These are snakes were talking about. You keep them in tubs not stables or yards so its not that difficult.



Look at all the meddling, cross breeding and genetic manipulation thats gone into creating those animals. It's a joke.
The pure forms nature has given us in Australia beat all that hocus pocus swirly cross-bred mud on every level hands down no argument.


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## slash89 (Jul 13, 2014)

Wow, this escalated quickly! I'd like to start by going back to the original post if I could be so bold. I can see why someone might become obsessed with the Ball python, purely based on their physical attributes as I have never, and probably will never learn about the pro's and con's on the keeping side of things. They are by no means a large snake compared to some of the python species out their, and the range of morphs available in the states are mind boggling and in most cases stunning. If they were legal here, I would happily own one. I'm a proud native reptile keeper, and also a dad, so to me, the species' I keep is based more on what would be best to suited as an introduction to herps for my daughter, and also myself as a relatively new member to the hobby. This relatively innocent post has somehow turned into the usual war between those who oppose and those who love morphs, and also (strangely), which country has the most lethal snake species to "boast" about. I'll start with my opinion on the morph topic, and please note, it is exactly that, my personal opinion. I don't intend to enter a war of words over it because truthfully, I respect both sides of the argument (usually). I have never bred any herps at this point having only kept them for a little over 2 years now, however, I do intend to breed a little later down the line. For me, morphs seem like a beautiful way to learn the in's and out's of genetics and in most cases they give the breeder a clear visual focus for future breeding projects. On the other hand, I fully respect and admire those who breed locale specific natives. I currently own a 6 year old pair of "Uluru" locale Woma pythons which I hope to breed in the near future. I plan on keeping the ones with the darkest and best defined patterns for future breeding in hopes of producing pythons with even better and cleaner contrasts than the stunning pair I already own. Those which don't fit my criteria would be sold (certainly not euthanized) I plan to only ever buy other "Uluru's" to keep this project locale specific.Now I cross to the dark side to discuss the breeding plans for my Bearded Dragons. I bought a hatchling pair (unsexed) of "white phase" bearded dragons a little over a year ago, purely to keep as pets. I still have no solid plans to breed them, but if I did, I would probably be inclined to introduce something new to the gene pool (as far as my collection goes that is). I like the look of white-hypo Beardies, and I am also guilty of being tempted by the leatherback craze. The idea of a long term breeding project excites me, and again, If I am to breed these guys, i'd like to aim for my own little "white-leather" line. I understand that the animals produced in the clutches at the end of a breeding project like this would look nothing like any of the wild types of this species, which are stunning in their own right, but to me, that would be the point in investing so many years into a breeding project.. to end up with something completely different to what I started with.At the end of the day, the hobby is evolving, but to me, it shouldn't matter what you prefer. More importantly, I don't think you should have to prefer one or the other, and you certainly shouldn't feel pressured to evolve with it. The idea of Locale specific and wild type breeding is awesome, but i'm also excited by some of the "new" morphs hitting the market, so at the risk of getting splinters in my backside, i'm going to have to sit on the fence for this one.But i'll finish by tying this ramble back to the original post, sorry pal, your obsession with Ball Pythons is a dead one if you live is Australia. It is a bit of a shame, but as others have said, explore what we have for offer over here, you may be surprised by some of the beautiful species (morphs or not) we have at our fingertips.


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## Beans (Jul 13, 2014)

Gaboon said:


> Australia technically has the most potent snake, wow. Theirs ani venom, communication and helicopters every where. Amagine being stuck in the middle of no where in Africa with black mambas or saw scaled vipers or in India, that's going to make their snakes even more dangerous. How many mice a snakes venom can kill means nothing, how about over all deaths, that's what makes a snake the most deadly in the world in my books. I know that's what your using in your side of the argument right now, true. But think about it. The persons body proberly wouldn't even be recovered and they just leave you there in Africa that's more terrifying then your beloved taipan. You wouldn't even come in contact with a taipan unless you looked for it, people over seas need to pick rice getting paid nothing with grass invested with venomous snakes, come on. And how many dry bites would those small fangs give with taipans, I saw some idiots on utube trying to milk a Gaboon viper and the fang went through the snakes bottom of it's mouth and into the guys hand and you have people milking taipans with ease and not many deaths.
> 
> 
> No hard feelings miss we're just talking about snakes, I do keep aussie herps and no exotics but if it came down to it overseas animals are much more spectacular and you could say Aussie herps do suck but only in comparison. by them selfs in general, they do not suck.
> ...




Once again you're ignoring what I said. I'm not talking at all about anti venoms, or the speed and availability at which you can acquire them. I'm talking about the venom itself. And drop for drop the Inland Taipan is one of the most deadly. And like I said we have the WORLDS SMALLEST python, the pygmy python. Sure we can't get reticulateds or rock pythons or any of those massive snakes, but do have some pretty large ones here, like the BHP and Olive python. And they are beautiful in thier own right. The olive AKA rainbow serpent is the most iridescent, with its rainbow colored sheen that we have all come to love. Looking at your post, your are jumping onto the first chance you see at starting an argument. If you think our natives are sucky. Please leave. This is the wrong place for you, so why not go and join another american forum when you can envy everyone elses mutations and morphs? Also, american morphs are unnatural, if you saw a ball python that was say.... a blue eyed lucy in the wild.. it would have NO chance of survival and would get eaten pretty quickly.

Yes I know! ITS CAPTIVITY. I know this, which brings me to my next point. Money, as much as people say no no I love snakes! Why mess with their natural beauty and add a massive price tag if you simply love the animal for what it is? They aren't a commodity. All animals are exactly as they are meant to be. They don't need tweaking, that is mans selfish doing.


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## GeckoJosh (Jul 13, 2014)

[MENTION=40353]Gaboon[/MENTION] 
All Elapids have holes in the bottom of their mouth for the fangs to go through, so the risk of being bitten though the bottom of the mouth is not unique to the Gaboon Viper or other large fanged snakes.;


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