# interesting..



## itbites (May 12, 2010)

Just seen this ad..

no links please


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## syeph8 (May 12, 2010)

so some bloke bred his jungle and albino? why do that to your livestock? would be interesting to see if they sell though...


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## itbites (May 12, 2010)

Oh they will sell...Seems like hybridizing is the new trend...

I can't stand seeing things like this to be honest, sure he's selling it for what it is but it just muddy's up the hobby!

(call me old fashioned)


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## syeph8 (May 12, 2010)

itbites said:


> Oh they will sell...Seems like hybridizing is the new trend...
> 
> I can't stand seeing things like this to be honest, sure he's selling it for what it is but it just muddy's up the hobby!



hmmm... ud be better off culling what you dont need for your own breeding in my oppinion. i know it sounds harsh but if you wanna do the hybrid thing, keep em to yourself.(i dont do the hybrid thing personally.. although RPM x jungle would be something i could see myself doing in the distant future) But we'll see where the hobby goes in 15-20 years.


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## ntvnm (May 12, 2010)

it really is like groundhog day..isnt it.


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## Origamislice (May 12, 2010)

hmm, i would like to see some pics, i'm not surprised by it but don't like it


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## pyrodarknessanny (May 12, 2010)

this this guy was doing these last yr too! 
i remember seeing em around, again pics would be interesting to see


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## krefft (May 12, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> hmmm... ud be better off culling what you dont need for your own breeding in my oppinion. i know it sounds harsh but if you wanna do the hybrid thing, keep em to yourself.(i dont do the hybrid thing personally.. although RPM x jungle would be something i could see myself doing in the distant future)
> 
> Really???
> See, I _like_ snakes.
> ...


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## Travisty (May 12, 2010)

krefft said:


> syeph8 said:
> 
> 
> > hmmm... ud be better off culling what you dont need for your own breeding in my oppinion. i know it sounds harsh but if you wanna do the hybrid thing, keep em to yourself.(i dont do the hybrid thing personally.. although RPM x jungle would be something i could see myself doing in the distant future)
> ...


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## itbites (May 12, 2010)

Each to their own opinion but I personally prefer pure that is my preference 
I also don't agree with hybridizing, again thats my personal opinion.

I have seen RPM's & the likes...Some are stunning I am not dismissing that, 
but then the same looks if not better in some cases 
can be achieved by selective breeding without crossing species/ sub species etc..


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2010)

I love these threads. Personally I cant wait to see exotics hybridized with our natives as our snakes are so dull and boring I can't think of a single species that really catches my eye and makes me think WOW I GOTTA HAVE ME ONE OF THEM!!!


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## H.bitorquatus (May 12, 2010)

both the same species so it doesn't matter does it? There being sold as what they are so nobody should be complaining, if its legal go for it!


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## itbites (May 12, 2010)

Ah love this new attitude in our hobby...Makes me wonder where we're headed


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## H.bitorquatus (May 12, 2010)

How can you guarantee all your collection was not crossed some time in the past? what do you consider pure? does it have to be caught within 50km? 100km? just look the same? What about stuff that is still getting worked on? if they split stuff how will you know what you have without exact location pure animals?

And the big one, why does it matter? They are just pets aren't they? not for conservation? Each to there own I guess.


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## syeph8 (May 12, 2010)

krefft said:


> syeph8 said:
> 
> 
> > hmmm... ud be better off culling what you dont need for your own breeding in my oppinion. i know it sounds harsh but if you wanna do the hybrid thing, keep em to yourself.(i dont do the hybrid thing personally.. although RPM x jungle would be something i could see myself doing in the distant future)
> ...


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## wasgij (May 12, 2010)

itbites said:


> Ah love this new attitude in our hobby...Makes me wonder where we're headed



going the way of the 'good ole' yanks :/


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## itbites (May 12, 2010)

You cannot guarantee anything in life 100% you can only trust your own judgement...

I *prefer* pure & where possible locale specific animals that is part of my interest in this hobby.

Thats like saying I want a ferret but I'll settle for a rat their all furry & look similar


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## krefft (May 12, 2010)

I have seen RPM's & the likes...Some are stunning I am not dismissing that, 
but then the same looks if not better in some cases 
can be achieved by selective breeding without crossing species/ sub species etc..[/QUOTE]

Beauty is certanly in the eye of the beholder, but sorry, you can't convince me that line breeding will come close topping these and 100's of others like them. 
These are the future of the hobby. 
I'll still maintain pure lines of some species, but it's animals like these that will take our hobby to the next level.


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## H.bitorquatus (May 12, 2010)

wasgij said:


> going the way of the 'good ole' yanks :/


 

Will be good, they have some nice critters over there, and lots of cheap animals too. I love cheap stuff!

I only like the last animal above, the one in the middle would look better jet black. its a jungle jag isn't it? I am fussy though!


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## Dragontamer (May 12, 2010)

> Thats like saying I want a ferret but I'll settle for a rat their all furry & look similar



...you know there different animals right? a jungle and a darwin are both the same species im no seeing the parallels here...


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## H.bitorquatus (May 12, 2010)

> Thats like saying I want a ferret but I'll settle for a rat their all furry & look similar


 
Mick is on the money! Darwin and Jungle = MORELIA SPILOTA, ferret MUSTELA and rat RATTUS are totally different, not even in the same genus so that is a stupid example.


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## krefft (May 12, 2010)

I only like the last animal above, the one in the middle would look better jet black. its a jungle jag isn't it? I am fussy though![/QUOTE]

Super Zebra. That one is still only young. Should go bright yellow as it matures.


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## itbites (May 12, 2010)

It wasn't supposed to be a scientific example 

Yes I am aware they are the same species different *sub species* though 

as for rats & ferrets I have no idea but okay whatever.

My argument isn't over rats & ferrets.

Perhaps I should have wrote rats & mice then for all the thick people? 

Either way split hairs or not...

I don't agree with all the crosses I do think pure is more attractive 

*those are my personal thoughts*


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## bkevo (May 12, 2010)

i like where the hobby is heading. although my wallet wont be able to keep up.
although i do think there may be a flood of very adverage looking animals in the early stages of mainstream hybridising.


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## syeph8 (May 12, 2010)

bkevo said:


> although i do think there may be a flood of very adverage looking animals in the early stages of mainstream hybridising.


 
my point exactly. and if people arent buying em cos they are dog ugly and you dont want them, dont release them into the wild. do the humane thing


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## H.bitorquatus (May 12, 2010)

rats and mice are also different genus as well, can I please have a better example I am either a bit slow or extremely bored


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## pyrodarknessanny (May 12, 2010)

love the super zebra, still don't get how zebra can produce that but meh, full yellow! also the 2 jags are tops too! 
hybrids and morphs are where its at like it or lump it, 

just remember there are always 2 sides to the fence


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## H.bitorquatus (May 12, 2010)

Pyro your on the hybrids side arn't you since you are crossing subspecies?

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-discussion-42/locality-cross-stimsons-130908

Why does everyone jump up and down over morelia spilota hybrids but not care about any other species subspecies?

PS I am not on the against side of the hybrid argument, more on the side of not really caring


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## gunny (May 12, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> krefft said:
> 
> 
> > jag isnt a hybrid mate
> ...


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## pyrodarknessanny (May 12, 2010)

1 its not hybridizing there "locations" are different, (all animals involved at this point are classed as eastern stems)
2 don't ask me, morelia is i diffrent kettle of fish all together, 

people would jump down my thought if i said i was crossing the stims with a childrni or a mac there too different, 
and i guess thats why morelia "hybriders" get flamed more readily besouce the species involved are too different. 

and so what if im pro hybrid? that automatically discredits me? , i believe that stimson's are stimson regardless of local, thus not hybrids. morelia as a more sensitive issue , i WOULD like to see where hybrid morelia go in the future but at this point have no real interest in hybridizing morelia my self .


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## potato matter (May 12, 2010)

I'm sure hundreds of people will disagree with me on this, but I personally think that hybrids are fine as long as it's a one off kind off a thing... As long as pure lines are maintained... each to their own.


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## syeph8 (May 12, 2010)

gunny said:


> syeph8 said:
> 
> 
> > krefft said:
> ...


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## gunny (May 12, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> gunny said:
> 
> 
> > syeph8 said:
> ...


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## No-two (May 13, 2010)

pyrodarknessanny said:


> 1 its not hybridizing there "locations" are different, (all animals involved at this point are classed as eastern stems)
> 2 don't ask me, morelia is i diffrent kettle of fish all together,
> 
> people would jump down my thought if i said i was crossing the stims with a childrni or a mac there too different,
> ...



Technically hybridising is crossing two things that are different, so crossing known localities is hybridising, however you look at it, its very similar to carpet pythons, they're not much different other than locality. In victoria they're still seen as all the same species 'carpet python'. I'm not going to jump up and down over hybrids or make them. But I'd certainly buy some of those ones Krefft has posted, they're cracker animals, but I don't think its the way of the future, at the very least its hard to say, its stupid to speculate, I think theres always going to be groups of pure people and groups of people that just want the pretty ones. I like both, I'm certainly not about to stop keeping pure animals though.


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## syeph8 (May 13, 2010)

gunny said:


> syeph8 said:
> 
> 
> > gunny said:
> ...


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## ShaunMorelia (May 13, 2010)

As long as they sold as what they are and it is legal in their state, I say go for it.


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## euphorion (May 13, 2010)

I know some people consider Platinum Macs to be hybrids. Fair call, but like the diamondxcoastals are they natural integrades? Seems like the line drawn between locality specific/sub species and naturally occurring integrades is becoming fuzzier by the minute. It seems that nomatter what the majority of keepers want in terms of either maintaining pure locality specific animals or being 'permitted' to create hybrid morphs (as in the US our Europe) the hobby is leaning towards simply what is 'new' or 'different'. It's obvious the demand is there, there will always be someone willing to supply and eventually it will just become a mainstream part of the hobby. 

Would like thoughts on where the line exists/should exist in terms of localities. Reference to diamond/coastal integrades would be an apt comparson.


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## waruikazi (May 13, 2010)

Bloody n00bs. Can you use the search function before starting these threads?

I used to really enjoy reading the retarded misinformation on these threads, but i'm a bit tired of seeing the same arguments based on nothing popping up all the time. I think a n00b would post a thread like this atleast once a month, with that number of these threads you'd think there would be atleast one new factless argument come up every second month or so. 

Oh oh oh! I just thought of one. I retain intelectual property rights on this one though.

*Don't you hybridizers realize that if one of your hybrid offspring escapes it could breed with Medusa damaging that gene pool. It hasn't happened yet but it is possible that the wild hybrid offspring, when you look into their eyes, would turn you into flowers instead of stone. That's just an unatural thing for a snake demon to do. Imagine if the eco terrorists got hold of one!?!?!*


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## Cheyne_Jones (May 13, 2010)

How come everyone is kidding them selves saying Jags are not hybrids? Do you even have any idea on how hard it is to get pure lines overseas? Up until pretty much the early 90's a carpet python was a carpet python weather it was black and gold or had rosettes like a what we now call a diamond. So most people overseas just bred them with everything and anything to see what happened. So how do you expect to have an animal like a Jag which originated overseas to be pure? This is going to be a problem in the future with people that dont know better passing off jag sibs as pure just because they have what they determine to be a coastal jag. Let the muddying begin...


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## Jungletrans (May 13, 2010)

lf , as suggested , a hybrid released [ accidently or on purpose ] into the wild would mate with the local animals and cause mayhem , then doesnt it follow that a pure snake that enters the bush out of its original location would breed with the locals . Followed by hybrids and mayhem .


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## Kurto (May 13, 2010)

Are we talking about captive pets here? 

Who here is breeding for the survival of a particular species? Or better yet any Morelia? Apart from the fact that Cheynei & Variegata share identical DNA. 

If anything a jungle + darwin albino clutch(s) should keep the price of pure darwin albinos more stable for a few more years. Maybe some good news for people who invested decent $$$$$ a few years ago.


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## nathancl (May 13, 2010)

honestly i think people need to get over it. stop wingeing everytime you see hybrids for sale because alot more will be coming just accept it and if you dont like it dont buy them simple.


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## AUSHERP (May 13, 2010)

its not that a hard of a concept, if you hybridise sell them as hybrids........ i cant stand those people selling jungles and when you get there its a coastal intergrade, call it what it is! if you lose $50 bucks, deal with it! whats gonna wreck it for the hybrids is people selling them to noobs who are gonna breed em irresponsibly.


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## Tinky (May 13, 2010)

Cross breeding makes me sick.

Those perverted people out there crossing Poodles and Labradors to make Labradoodles should be shot. If they could cross a Blue Heeler with a Red Cattle dog to get a purple cattle heeler they probably would.

I mean how stupid are these people. In December my wife bought a Staffie cross Larsa Apso. I told her, you know you have bought a Statue, (I kid you not, her name is Gracie)

Given half a chance these genetic terrorists would literally cross Kangaroos with Sheep, Flamingos with Zebras, and Whales with Fleas.

Won’t somebody think of the children. . .


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## Perko (May 13, 2010)

Pet trade people, your not saving the world ( thank god )


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## Colin (May 13, 2010)

Kurto said:


> Who here is breeding for the survival of a particular species? Or better yet any Morelia? Apart from the fact that Cheynei & Variegata share identical DNA.



yes kurto  this is what I've been told. that DNA studies of the morelia group uncovered there were only three distinct DNA found in morelia - being imbricata, bredli and the rest.. so just as current sub species groups classified as for example cheynei have different coloured, patterned and sized locality variations such as what we refer to as palmerstons, julattens, athertons etc it doesnt seem too big a leap to have the idea that this main morelia group sharing the same DNA could just be locality variations of the one DNA group morelia spilota (carpet) ? 

who knows? I'll leave it up to the experts and just enjoy keeping and breeding my own animals.


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## ntvnm (May 13, 2010)

first things first...those hybrid hets havnt sold for some time...the add has been renewed multiple times.


ok...why isnt locality crossing considered hybridizing? some of these locality crosses wouldnt accure in the wild.unless you collected YOUR animals from the wild they could be crosses...so most of YOU could already be ''hybrid'' breeders and not even know about it...

so basically you all are happy aslong as you 'think' your breeding pure? when in fact you could actually be breeding crosses and selling them as pure? how would you know unless you collected them from the wild?

you dont know 100%?...its funny because half the animals these ''purists'' have are crosses...yet they jump up and down saying keep it pure ect.

im a 'purist' by the way. you can breed stunning animals from pure stock...there is no need to cross.

hey Kreft...could we see some hybrids that you actually bred? preferably without the jag gene.
it would make my day if you could show us some clutch pics aswell..... that would be great.

Cheers


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## AUSHERP (May 13, 2010)

many of the pure lines you are talking about NTVNM were collected from the wild and have been line bred, all the snakes had to come from the wild at some point, why is it so unlikely that these bloodlines have been kept pure, i know many people who are the original collectors of their snakes so can guarantee that these are the locality.


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## AUSHERP (May 13, 2010)

though i do see where you are coming from, people usually dont label a line unless they know for sure (unless they are stupid)


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## itbites (May 13, 2010)

As I've said through out the whole thread & as a personal opinion as well..

Each & everyone to their own, I am not about to bad mouth or frown upon those who think differently.

I just don't feel that hybrids are better than pure locale animals.

Yes I know you can't be sure if what you keep is in fact pure locale specific etc...

Isn't that only going to get worse as the hobby progresses & more hybrids/crosses are produced?

It may be an issue if down the track things get that mixed up we end up with no pure critters left.

Not being over dramatic but it wasn't that long ago that the masses were against crossing species/ sub species

now it seems to be the other way around with a few popular sellers/traders endorsing it the rest follow suit.

Again it's just my thoughts on the subject...


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## ntvnm (May 13, 2010)

Ausherp - orginal collectors?? every one buys directly from them dont they?...


itbites - i still dont get it...you dont like hybrids,
but you are willing to breed animals that could be anything.
so aslong as you 'think' you are breeding pure...it dosnt matter?
so its ok for hybrids to be bred unintentually ,but not intenually?


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## Waterrat (May 13, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> ok...why isnt locality crossing considered hybridizing?


 No, it's not. You have to brush up on terminology. Hybridization is crossing two animals with different DNA, i.e. different species. Subspecies and locality morphs have the same DNA.


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## ntvnm (May 13, 2010)

so waterrat....most of subspecies cant be seperated by a dna test...does this mean breeding them would not create a hybrid?


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## Waterrat (May 13, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> so waterrat....most of subspecies cant be seperated by a dna test...does this mean breeding them would not create a hybrid?


 Which subspecies? If subsepcies have the same DNA, as they have, then crossing specimens of those subspecies from different localities would not create hybrids. The result phenotypes may look different but they will be still the same subspecies, not hybrids. I hope it makes sense.


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## Southside Morelia (May 13, 2010)

Does make sense M and has been said many times, and I can't understand why people don't get it!! lol
The Ad has been going for ages..and I don't personally think that the animals will be any different than Albino Darwins and may keep the price of them, stable as mentioned, which is a good thing.
You may get a snappy albino....what a joy.....:lol:
It is the way of the hobby and I grasp that and am looking forward to some really smick looking animals, BUT there is always a place for the PURE ones too guys.... just face the facts and accept it! A PLACE FOR BOTH...


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## sandswimmer (May 13, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> krefft said:
> 
> 
> > jag isnt a hybrid mate
> ...


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## krefft (May 13, 2010)

I'm not sure how the quote above got attributed to me but I didn't write it.


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## Tinky (May 13, 2010)

Why did my opinion get moderated.

Do we need to have serious and nonserious threads. 

My points were valid, even if raised in a non conventional manner. Postulating on degrees of variation deserves ridicule.

Whoever removed my comments, can you please PM me for an indepth discussion on the validity of taking the piss.

I removed them being "chit chat" and not really contributing to the topic or discussion at all in my opinion. Colin


> If you cross a Rainbow Serpent with a Death adder, do you get a Colorful Death ?


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## syeph8 (May 14, 2010)

i give up, you win, do whatever you like without precaution. realease as many of your ugliest mongrels into the wild as you like to strengthen our native genetics if you think its the right thing to do. go ahead and release exotic species while you're at it. chop down a couple of trees too. then you'll be able to tell your kids what australias animals and ecosystem was like when you were a kid. as i assume you parents told you, as my parents have told me how many animals they used to see they are now either rare and endangered or extinct because of people who supposedly know what they're doing. ill just be sure to take photos.


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## Colin (May 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> If subsepcies have the same DNA, as they have, then crossing specimens of those subspecies from different localities would not create hybrids. The result phenotypes may look different but they will be still the same subspecies, not hybrids. I hope it makes sense.



makes perfect sense to me michael and so crossing a jungle with a darwin would not be making a hybrid because they both share the same DNA.


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## Cheyne_Jones (May 14, 2010)

Have all our carpet subspecies had their full genetic makeup mapped by scientists as yet? Would be a shame to assume they are the same even though they all look completely different and come from very different habitats only to find out that deep in their genetics they are actually different. If anyone can present me with a scientific paper explaining that they have all been DNA profiled to be exactly the same I will eat my shirt and finally shut up on this topic.


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## Tinky (May 14, 2010)

Colin,

My point was that dog breeders have been crossing breeds since Noah was a boy, and it is an accepted practice. Sure you end up with a mongrel, (mutt, bitsa), but they have there place, and specific combinations have been marketed such as labradoodles, Snoozels etc.

Do we need to call a Carpet cross Jungle a Cargle, or do we call it a Mutt snake. Does wanting a Black Headed Olive make me an inferior herper.

Hope that clarifies my position and adds to the thread. 

Yes the Adder cross comment was a bit of frivolous nonsense.

Cheers


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## waruikazi (May 14, 2010)

Syeph, this is what you call a strawman argument. You have invented the problem that you are arguing agaisnt, essentially arguing with yourself. Don't give up just find a credible argument and some evidence to back it up.



syeph8 said:


> i give up, you win, do whatever you like without precaution. realease as many of your ugliest mongrels into the wild as you like to strengthen our native genetics if you think its the right thing to do. go ahead and release exotic species while you're at it. chop down a couple of trees too. then you'll be able to tell your kids what australias animals and ecosystem was like when you were a kid. as i assume you parents told you, as my parents have told me how many animals they used to see they are now either rare and endangered or extinct because of people who supposedly know what they're doing. ill just be sure to take photos.


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## Perko (May 14, 2010)

So loosing a pure Diamond in pure Jungle territory is different?




syeph8 said:


> i give up, you win, do whatever you like without precaution. realease as many of your ugliest mongrels into the wild as you like to strengthen our native genetics if you think its the right thing to do. go ahead and release exotic species while you're at it. chop down a couple of trees too. then you'll be able to tell your kids what australias animals and ecosystem was like when you were a kid. as i assume you parents told you, as my parents have told me how many animals they used to see they are now either rare and endangered or extinct because of people who supposedly know what they're doing. ill just be sure to take photos.


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## Malley (May 14, 2010)

I'm interested to know how many of the "against hybrid" people making the argument that if hybrids escape from captivity, they will "muddy up natural populations" keep species which don't occur locally to them. Couldn't the escape of their pure species do the same thing if capable of breeding with local populations?


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## waruikazi (May 14, 2010)

Nope. No it can't, it wont, will never happen, pure animals have good taste and stick to their own. None of this interracial breeding for our high class locale specific animals.

On a less tongue in cheek note. I had a conversation with Gavin Beford a couple of years ago regarding a brown that i caught out of a shipping yard that i thought was a hitch hiker. The conversation revolved around the topic of if it was a hitch hiker that it would cause damage to local gene pools. I don't remember the research that he quoted to me but his response was that a small number of animals like that wont have an impact on wild populations. He isn't the be all to end all of reptile genetics but he certaintly does know his stuff.



Malley said:


> I'm interested to know how many of the "against hybrid" people making the argument that if hybrids escape from captivity, they will "muddy up natural populations" keep species which don't occur locally to them. Couldn't the escape of their pure species do the same thing if capable of breeding with local populations?


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2010)

CarigP, there is another question - would the diamond find the jungles sexy enough to have an affair with them? And if so, would one individual spoil the population's genetic make up? I don't have the answers but it's something to think about.

Subspecies is an obscure taxonomic unit. Some herpetologists don't take it seriously at all, on the other hand, Ray Hoser _et al_. wouldn't live with out them. Just look at the Tiger snakes; once 6 (or so) subspecies, now all one species, no subspecies. There is no doubt that many subspecies (but not all) are in the evolutionary transition state and given time, geographical separation, etc., will / may evolve into full species. So, are we jumping the gun by separating them prematurely? 

In this and other threads people often don't distinguish between "subspecies" and "locality morphs", they're not one and the same.


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## ntvnm (May 14, 2010)

i rang up the Dse the other day and had a ferm talking to about the licenses being sent by april ,apparently they are cracking down on people and have seen alot of people wingeing on the forums about them..LOL

anyway good luck to everyone and this thread..im over it.


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## Kurto (May 14, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> i rang up the Dse the other day and had a ferm talking to about the licenses being sent by april ,apparently they are cracking down on people and have seen alot of people wingeing on the forums about them..LOL
> 
> anyway good luck to everyone and this thread..im over it.


 

Whats the license deadline got to do with this thread?


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## Colin (May 14, 2010)

Cheyne_Jones said:


> Have all our carpet subspecies had their full genetic makeup mapped by scientists as yet? Would be a shame to assume they are the same even though they all look completely different and come from very different habitats only to find out that deep in their genetics they are actually different. If anyone can present me with a scientific paper explaining that they have all been DNA profiled to be exactly the same I will eat my shirt and finally shut up on this topic.



In regard to my earlier post where I said I've been told that DNA studies of the morelia group uncovered there were only three distinct DNA found in morelia - being imbricata, bredli and the rest.. 

This research was done at the University of Adelaide/SA Museum through a number of PhD students under the supervision of Professor Steve Donnellen. The friend who told me about this study just rang Professor Donnellen and was told despite the work being completed in 2006 it hasn’t been published. The reason for this is the PhD student got a job straight after his PhD with forensics and hasn’t had the time to publish the work.

But the title of the PhD is “Using DNA markers for wildlife management and protection: a study of the population structure and systematics of the Australian Carpet Pythons”. It was done by Duncan Taylor.

Here is the abstract …

Abstract
We used a range of molecular genetic markers to investigate the population structure of the polytypic and widespread carpet python complex (Morelia spilota) from Australia and New Guinea, in which two species and seven subspecies are recognized currently based on scalation, color pattern and behavioral traits. However, knowledge of the taxonomic and geographic distribution of variation in behavioral and morphological traits is incomplete and whether variation in these traits indicates population divergence or local adaptive responses has not been determined, making the basis for systematic decisions unclear. We examined variation in mtDNA control region sequences, allozyme loci and eight microsatellite loci from snakes sampled from 118 locations throughout the range of the complex and used concordance among the three datasets to analyse species boundaries. We found that the currently recognised species Morelia bredli and sub-species Morelia spilota imbricata can be recognized as distinct lineages within the Morelia spilota complex sufficient to warrant species status as M. bredli and Morelia imbricata respectively. Within the remaining taxon M. spilota, we found high levels of geneflow and low divergence between all other putative sub-species.

*the bottom line of the study was that with the exception of imbricata and bredli the whole Morelia spilota group is just a complex of interbreeding populations which are locally adapted to their environments but are not reproductively isolated in the wild. *

all this research was carried out and supervised by:
Professor Stephen Donnellan
South Australian Museum,
North Terrace, Adelaide SA 5000, and
School of Earth and Environmental Sciences,
University of Adelaide SA 5005,
Australia.


If you give Professor Stephen Donnellan a call I'm sure he will verify this information is correct..
I hope this is sufficient Cheyne


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2010)

Colin, you are a brave man. 
This work and other related studies clearly spell out that the _variegata_ does not exist and the validity of other subspecies such as _chaynei_, etc., is a product of poor science and vivid imagination. This will make the Hoser clan very unhappy and I am sure they will keep on splitting their little hearts out for eternity. LOL
As for the hobby, I guess jungles will be jungles and coastals will be coastals. Just a further divergence of the hobby from herpetology? So be it.


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## Colin (May 14, 2010)

Im no scientist or geneticist michael and dont even pretend to understand half the scientific jargon in most of these scientific papers. But thats the reference my friend gave me in regard to there really being only three distinct recognised morelia DNA. 

But as you say jungles will always be jungles to me and coastals will always be coastals.. cheers


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## AUSHERP (May 14, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> Ausherp - orginal collectors?? every one buys directly from them dont they?...


@ ntvnm, you said before that most of the breeders claim locality specific animals dont know for sure and i said that alot of them do know for sure because they collected the animals, you got off track a bit there....... we werent talking about the buyer we were talking about the seller.....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 14, 2010)

The plot thickens! Thanks for the abstract Colin. Never let real science get in the way of a good hybrid debate. Michael, you are spot on when you say that the gap between herpetology ( science) and herpetoculture ( hobby breeders) are getting bigger. Don't let formal education get in the way of Internet based facts!


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## Colin (May 14, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> The plot thickens! Thanks for the abstract Colin. Never let real science get in the way of a good hybrid debate. Michael, you are spot on when you say that the gap between herpetology ( science) and herpetoculture ( hobby breeders) are getting bigger. Don't let formal education get in the way of Internet based facts!



always good to throw some science Vs emotion in the purist hybrid debate


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## Beano05 (May 14, 2010)

*The battle continues!*

Pure vs hypo. I was against it originaly but saw some pics of some really nice patterns and colours, and have seen some average colours and patterns on pure. If you like it buy it, if you don't then don't. 

Isnt it obvious as to what is cross bred? or are sometimes tiny changes?


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2010)

Hey, all you purists, hybridisers and morphomakers, lets live in harmony. There is room for all of us, "respect" is the password.


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## Colin (May 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Hey, all you purists, hybridisers and morphomakers, lets live in harmony. There is room for all of us, "respect" is the password.


 
I second that michael.. lets all try to get along and move forward.


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## potato matter (May 14, 2010)

Colin said:


> I second that michael.. lets all try to get along and move forward.



I third that!


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## mark83 (May 14, 2010)

yep. each to their own


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## pyrodarknessanny (May 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Hey, all you purists, hybridisers and morphomakers, lets live in harmony. There is room for all of us, "respect" is the password.


 
i'll +1 to that!


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## AUSHERP (May 15, 2010)

how sweet and lovely...... lol


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## QLD4800 (May 15, 2010)

rough scale python cross x green tree python would be the go. Maybe cross the offspring to a jungle or coastal if possible. sell em $100 a pop.


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## Waterrat (May 15, 2010)

QLD4800 said:


> rough scale python cross x green tree python would be the go.



I take it as a joke but some people are dead serious about such hybrid. What's good about it? The roughy would take the nice green out of the GTP and the GTP would spoil the characters of the roughy. Only Dr. Mengele or Frankelstain would think of such idea. They should be worth $100.- a pop, maybe a bit less. You're right there.


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## Lucafer (May 15, 2010)

I keep reading net bits here & there about the Melb Zoo history with crosses etc. Yet I have never seen a pic! I am quite serious here & NOT wading into a (as i read it) done topic. Any chance someone could pm me a link to some?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 15, 2010)

Crossing a roughy with anything would just be plain stupid!!! They are still one of the rarest pythons in the world. And outside of Australia they are probably the rarest of all pythons in collections.


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## QLD4800 (May 15, 2010)

> I take it as a joke but some people are dead serious about such hybrid. What's good about it? The roughy would take the nice green out of the GTP and the GTP would spoil the characters of the roughy. Only Dr. Mengele or Frankelstain would think of such idea. They should be worth $100.- a pop, maybe a bit less. You're right there.


You drive a hard bargin.


> I keep reading net bits here & there about the Melb Zoo history with crosses etc. Yet I have never seen a pic! I am quite serious here & NOT wading into a (as i read it) done topic. Any chance someone could pm me a link to some?​


 The smuggled website somewhere under australian python taxonomy.


> CarpetPythons.com.au
> Crossing a roughy with anything would just be plain stupid!!! They are still one of the rarest pythons in the world. And outside of Australia they are probably the rarest of all pythons in collections.​


 To me crossing a rough scale python with a coastal is no different to crossing two QLD coastals from different locations. They are different to whats in nature and can pollute wild stock.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 15, 2010)

Where did the post go that Ramsayi posted about mating with Chimps? Come on mods, lets have some fun. Insult is usually the weakest form of retaliation when ones beliefs have been challenged. The article might not have been published yet but it would be more credible than any of the previous studies that have been conducted to assess the taxonomic relationships between the Morelia complex.


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## richardsc (May 15, 2010)

albino dungles,lol

whats the benifit of crossing subspecies?????????????

also why breed a trait into reptiles like albinism when its known fact light hurts there eyes,isnt that classed as cruel,doesnt keeping them in dimmly lit enclosures defeat the purpose of there display potential with there coloring,albinos to me are highly over rated,crossing them is a way for someone to make more cash

to me thats harsh on the animals,but each to there own


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## Bec137 (May 15, 2010)

What are RPM's?????????????????????????????


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## QLD4800 (May 15, 2010)

australia's version of the 'jag' but genetically they are not jags. REDUCED PATTERN MORPHS.


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## junglepython2 (May 15, 2010)

QLD4800 said:


> australia's version of the 'jag' but genetically they are not jags. REDUCED PATTERN MORPHS.



How are they genetically different? Is the super form leucistic?


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## QLD4800 (May 15, 2010)

I dont know mate. Didn't know we had super form leucistic whatevers in austraila. Where were they created here or overseas.


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## junglepython2 (May 15, 2010)

Originally from Norway much like the RPM's im guessing ;P


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