# Buying Poss Hets... Worth It?



## kittycat17 (May 4, 2017)

Thinking of purchasing a poss het axanthic hatchie... 
Is it worth it? 
Are poss hets worth it for any morph in your opinions?? 


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## pinefamily (May 4, 2017)

One of my pet peeves with our hobby is when people advertise for sale 50% or 66% or anything less than 100% hets. It's either het or it's not IMO.
As long as you understand the genetics behind breeding with hets, there's no reason why you wouldn't buy one.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (May 4, 2017)

This is my understanding of hets @pinefamily if you look a the het to normal and het to het chart you have no way of knowing which of the offspring is het hence the 50% and 66% hets.


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## alex.snaith (May 4, 2017)

Be careful, it's the scam of RDU selling hets, even reputable breeders...


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 4, 2017)

Buying Hets or Possible Hets is only of any value at all if you intend to breed the animals in the future. Without a plan to breed it is just a waste of money.
That said, is there any value in buying Hets.......Hell Yes, (Thats my attempt at being polite). Hets will cost you around half the price of animals with whatever visual trait you are buying for. 100% hets come with the guarantee that when you breed them, (if successful), you are guaranteed to breed animals with the visual trait you are trying to achieve.
Possible hets (50 or 66%) chance, I'm sorry Pinefamily but I have to dissagree with you on this one. Possible hets can normally be sourced for a fraction above the price of wild type animals. If you buy enough offspring from the same clutch you will be almost guaranteed success though it might take a couple of breeding seasons to get the combination needed to get you the desired outcome. Lets think about something rare such as an Albino BHP. If I had enough possible hets would there be value? Of course.
If all we have to start with is a single Albino animal then to develop the line there would be out crossing that would lead to a line of 66% or 50% hets. 
That said when I have purchased possible hets I have bought them for the look of the animal not for its potential/het status. If they do turn out to be het that for me is a bonus.

Is there risk with buying hets. Of course there is, you can't see what you are buying, you rely upon the integrity of the seller to sell you a gene package that you are paying for. That said, buy from a reputable BREEDER. (Only the breeder of the hets knows exactly what animals produced the offspring). There are more good/honest people in the hobby than bad ones and I have never been ripped off with a het that turned out to be a dud but I do know people that have been and sometimes for seriously expensive animals.


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## kittycat17 (May 4, 2017)

Bloody great responses guys!! 

I'm wanting to get the axanthic gene into my Coastal line, so poss hets are the long way around for me but I think this was a great discussion to have with you guys 


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## dragonlover1 (May 4, 2017)

I don't understand the hesitancy.if the parents or 1 of have the gene required then ALL the children not showing are het !


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## SKYWLKR (May 5, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Buying Hets or Possible Hets is only of any value at all if you intend to breed the animals in the future. Without a plan to breed it is just a waste of money.
> That said, is there any value in buying Hets.......Hell Yes, (Thats my attempt at being polite). Hets will cost you around half the price of animals with whatever visual trait you are buying for. 100% hets come with the guarantee that when you breed them, (if successful), you are guaranteed to breed animals with the visual trait you are trying to achieve.
> Possible hets (50 or 66%) chance, I'm sorry Pinefamily but I have to dissagree with you on this one. Possible hets can normally be sourced for a fraction above the price of wild type animals. If you buy enough offspring from the same clutch you will be almost guaranteed success though it might take a couple of breeding seasons to get the combination needed to get you the desired outcome. Lets think about something rare such as an Albino BHP. If I had enough possible hets would there be value? Of course.
> If all we have to start with is a single Albino animal then to develop the line there would be out crossing that would lead to a line of 66% or 50% hets.
> ...



Plus one on that, Sir.


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## Redrum (Jun 8, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Buying Hets or Possible Hets is only of any value at all if you intend to breed the animals in the future. Without a plan to breed it is just a waste of money.
> That said, is there any value in buying Hets.......Hell Yes, (Thats my attempt at being polite). Hets will cost you around half the price of animals with whatever visual trait you are buying for. 100% hets come with the guarantee that when you breed them, (if successful), you are guaranteed to breed animals with the visual trait you are trying to achieve.
> Possible hets (50 or 66%) chance, I'm sorry Pinefamily but I have to dissagree with you on this one. Possible hets can normally be sourced for a fraction above the price of wild type animals. If you buy enough offspring from the same clutch you will be almost guaranteed success though it might take a couple of breeding seasons to get the combination needed to get you the desired outcome. Lets think about something rare such as an Albino BHP. If I had enough possible hets would there be value? Of course.
> If all we have to start with is a single Albino animal then to develop the line there would be out crossing that would lead to a line of 66% or 50% hets.
> ...


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## Redrum (Jun 8, 2017)

Hi i just bought a pair of coastals that are siblings and they both are from parents dad is 100%het axanthic and 100%het albino mum is 100% axanthic so was told my pair are both 66%het axanthic and 50% het albino so what do you think my chances would be to get a visual albino coastal or and axanthic when breeding time comes thanks for any info


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## Yellowtail (Jun 8, 2017)

I know this has been covered before but there seems to be a lot of confusion over hets.
A snake is not part het (50% or 66%) the percentage refers to the % chance that the snake is het for the relevant characteristic and breeding them is a lottery where you have a 50% or 66% chance.
Only 100% hets will guarantee the genes are passed on. If both of your carpets are hets then approx 25% of the progeny will show visual characteristics and you can work out the odds of that. If one isn't then they will have natural appearance.


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## Redrum (Jun 8, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> I know this has been covered before but there seems to be a lot of confusion over hets.
> A snake is not part het (50% or 66%) the percentage refers to the % chance that the snake is het for the relevant characteristic and breeding them is a lottery where you have a 50% or 66% chance.
> Only 100% hets will guarantee the genes are passed on. If both of your carpets are hets then approx 25% of the progeny will show visual characteristics and you can work out the odds of that. If one isn't then they will have natural appearance.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jun 8, 2017)

Redrum said:


> Hi i just bought a pair of coastals that are siblings and they both are from parents dad is 100%het axanthic and 100%het albino mum is 100% axanthic so was told my pair are both 66%het axanthic and 50% het albino so what do you think my chances would be to get a visual albino coastal or and axanthic when breeding time comes thanks for any info



You have a chance but it's a slim chance.
Like I said in my initial response you need numbers to swing the odds in your favour, 4 or 6 animals would leave you with a near certainty of 1 pair carrying the trait but then you may need several breeding seasons to actually pair the right animals together.


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## Yellowtail (Jun 8, 2017)

When you get older long term breeding projects with chance possibilities loose there attraction.
I have some very old julattens from Tremains line that are almost certainly axanthic showing no brown or cream at 12 yrs but to prove them will be a multi generation outcrossing program that will produce a lot of mongrels and while it would make the line valuable I'm not doing it. This is one of the girls.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 9, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> When you get older long term breeding projects with chance possibilities loose there attraction.
> I have some very old julattens from Tremains line that are almost certainly axanthic showing no brown or cream at 12 yrs but to prove them will be a multi generation outcrossing program that will produce a lot of mongrels and while it would make the line valuable I'm not doing it. This is one of the girls.View attachment 320707



That thing is stunning, what about simply pairing to another black and gold jungle? Then offspring back to each other or is that to much long term?


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## Scutellatus (Jun 9, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> That thing is stunning, what about simply pairing to another black and gold jungle? Then offspring back to each other or is that to much long term?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is the exact reason I dislike designer breeding. The majority of it becomes inbreeding just to get something special. Would you encourage your children to have kids together just because one has beautiful blue eyes and the other has blonde hair?
Im my opinion designer breeding should only be done with unrelated pairs at all times.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 9, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> This is the exact reason I dislike designer breeding. The majority of it becomes inbreeding just to get something special. Would you encourage your children to have kids together just because one has beautiful blue eyes and the other has blonde hair?
> Im my opinion designer breeding should only be done with unrelated pairs at all times.



From the research I have done line breeding has shown very little genetic mutations? 
I understand that some people don't like it though 


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## pinefamily (Jun 9, 2017)

Snakes aren't like humans, they can bred within the same family line. I don't see this sort of thing as designer breeding; I call it "designer breeding" when there is crossing between various (sub)species. Just my own opinion.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 9, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Snakes aren't like humans, they can bred within the same family line. I don't see this sort of thing as designer breeding; I call it "designer breeding" when there is crossing between various (sub)species. Just my own opinion.



An opinion I do agree with 


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## MzJen (Jun 9, 2017)

Please correct me if I am wrong but aren't all albino Darwin's the offspring of blondie? Thus all her offspring have at some point in time been either paired with their mother or a sibling?


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## Scutellatus (Jun 9, 2017)

Leucistic is a perfect example of the mutations that can occur from inbreeding. As with all animals it takes quite a few generations for the mutations to become evident.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 9, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Leucistic is a perfect example of the mutations that can occur from inbreeding. As with all animals it takes quite a few generations for the mutations to become evident.



Pretty sure there was a gentleman who last I heard had line bred 11 generations with no ill effects
I can't remember where I read that though


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## Scutellatus (Jun 9, 2017)

This statement is from Jan Eric Engell the founder of the Jag gene pool.
"I believe the only way to produce a healthy leucistic specimen
is to dilute the Jaguar bloodline by several generations and then breed
two completely unrelated Jaguars to each other".
Some breeders may get lucky and never have any problems. In my opinion most people that line breed are in it more for than money and the 'look at what I bred' factor than anything else.


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## Yellowtail (Jun 9, 2017)

My line of julattens started with 4 adults sourced from 3 different owners but the all traced back to Tremain Anderson and wild caught animals from the Julatten area where they get the name. It is possible one or more of the founder snakes was axanthic or het for as it is unlikely the black and white snakes from such a small area just evolved that way while other jungles from surrounding areas are classic colours. Pinefamily is right, snakes are not like mammals, they lay large numbers of eggs and the young stay in a small area and regularly mate with siblings and cousins so they become very inbred without problems. Rough scaled pythons are confined to very small areas and must be very inbred and what about populations of snakes on small islands, some of these have been extensively studied and are very healthy, probably evolving their distinctive characteristics over millions of years.
I have line bred the Julattens for many generations mostly selecting for patterns and all have been healthy unlike breeding animals with genetic faults like jags where a percentage of the offspring are defective to the point of having to be euthanised. I have line bred albino Darwins for over 10 years starting with 6 animals bred by Southern Cross, again selecting for colours but I have outcrossed those with natural Darwins to develop colours and fluro without any health problems.


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## Yellowtail (Jun 9, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Some breeders may get lucky and never have any problems. In my opinion most people that line breed are in it more for than money and the 'look at what I bred' factor than anything else.


And Scutellatus if I was doing it "for the money" I would have outcrossed to prove an axanthic line rather than just line breeding to produce nice looking pythons. I don't breed jags because I would be heartbroken to have to euthanise an animal I bred. Line breeding reptiles is only duplicating what they naturally do in isolated areas, on islands etc resulting in a distinctive appearance.


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## Scutellatus (Jun 9, 2017)

Not having a go at you Yellowtail but at the end of the day the 'money' factor has to be a part of it. To spend thousands of dollars on the Julatten line and most probably tens of thousands on the albino line in the first place says to me money had to be a factor. You aren't just buying those animals for the pleasure of keeping them and hoping to recover your outlay with a couple of pairings. It reminds me of the boom in Green Tree Pythons when pairs were going for upwards of $40,000 for two hatchlings.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 9, 2017)

Hahahaa some of us do actually keep for the love of keeping animals!! I have coastals lol I've probably wasted so much money on raising and breeding them but do I care? Nope I love keeping and breeding them, developing my own line of distinct animals 
And trading animals with friends, which I've done so this season and it has been lovely seeing the excited looks on there faces knowing I'm trusting them with one of my 'babies' because that's how I see them 
There my pets as much as my cats are 


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## Scutellatus (Jun 9, 2017)

Breeding coastals is a little different to breeding the high end animals Kittycat. You go into breeding coastals not expecting to make big dollars. Although I do remember your thread where you weren't happy with the price you could sell them for.
At the end of the day most people that buy the high end animals for the intention of breeding do so as an investment and expect a return on that investment. Keep in mind I am not saying that is a bad thing. The more people that do it, the cheaper the animal eventually becomes.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 9, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Breeding coastals is a little different to breeding the high end animals Kittycat. You go into breeding coastals not expecting to make big dollars. Although I do remember your thread where you weren't happy with the price you could sell them for.
> At the end of the day most people that buy the high end animals for the intention of breeding do so as an investment and expect a return on that investment. Keep in mind I am not saying that is a bad thing. The more people that do it, the cheaper the animal eventually becomes.



My thread on price was more a broad spectrum disappointment that pure animals where going for in general 
But yes I do understand your point 


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## Yellowtail (Jun 9, 2017)

It costs a lot of money to maintain a large collection in large enclosures (if it was a business they would be in tubs) and without some income from selling albinos I could not afford it. I only sell 8 - 10 from one clutch of julattens each season when I could be breeding hundreds.
I have had several GTP's for years and not sold any and I certainly don't keep my Diamonds, Roughys and SW Carpets for the money.


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 9, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> In my opinion most people that line breed are in it more for than money and the 'look at what I bred' factor than anything else.



Ack, apologies again if I devolve into a ranting mess. Probably shouldn't comment on these types of topics but I feel very strongly towards them.

I have to agree with Scutellatus's statement. Just about every Tom, Dick, and Harry are "line-breeding" their reptiles simply for the chance to create something different that will fetch a higher price. But Yellowtail's right, inbreeding can be common in certain wild populations. If a weak specimen is produced from such a pairing, however, mother nature has no qualms snuffing it out. People on the other hand tend to horde such things. Even using the weak animal extensively in their breeding projects because in many cases that particular specimen is the most unusual. This is when line-breeding becomes a problem. That, and when people refuse to out-cross every now and then.

I call it designer breeding when people breed explicitly for the purpose of enhancing or creating a particular trait specifically to appeal to the masses. It doesn't have to be restricted to breeding hybrids. I would also include it to people that breed animals of two distinct localities together. I remember on Facebook where someone was inquiring what cool and weird colours they could produce by breeding two locality specific lizards together, two distinctly different animals of which I would not be surprised if they were allocated subspecies status sometime in the future. It makes me wonder - why? Both lizards are equally beautiful in their own right so why would you want to change it? Although I won't deny that some selectively bred animals are stunning.

But it seems these days that more and more people are selectively breeding for some trait or another in their all important goal to prove that they can do better than mother nature. That does seem to be the common practice these days in the reptile keeping hobby - paint-jobs, paint-jobs, paint-jobs, developing distinct lines like pedigreed dogs etc. etc. Sometimes I wonder if I even follow the same hobby. I don't really care much for the paint jobs and the hets for this and hets for that, I'm interested in their natural forms and behaviours. Why don't we keep the practice of breeding extensively line-bred bizarre mutant creatures far removed from their wild ancestors to dogs for goodness sake? As that's where I see the hobby is going.


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## pinefamily (Jun 9, 2017)

MzJen said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong but aren't all albino Darwin's the offspring of blondie? Thus all her offspring have at some point in time been either paired with their mother or a sibling?


There was a second albino found which was called White Phoenix, however you are right that most albinos in captivity come from the Blondie line.


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## pinefamily (Jun 9, 2017)

Not everyone gets an albino or a GTP (as examples) to breed. We have a fair collection of reptiles (actually downsized when we moved), and have no interest in breeding our albinos. We have them for their natural beauty, as we do our other reptiles. The closest thing we have to a "designer" reptile is a leatherback beardie. I actually picked it out for its patterning and colours before I realized it was a leatherback.


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## Yellowtail (Jun 9, 2017)

Someone here may know better? I heard from good authority that White Phoenix was in fact a blondie albino and a "creation" to have a different line to market. The python was conveniently lost in a fire just before it was to be DNA tested. 
Getting back to the original theme some of my best albinos have come from hets when I have outcrossed with naturals to introduce colours, fluro and patterns to my lines.
The het girl in photo just taken produces albinos with beautiful subtle colours.


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## pinefamily (Jun 9, 2017)

That's interesting, Yellowtail. The last time there was discussion about Blondie etc. I'm pretty sure someone mentioned there had been a third one found in the wild, but can't be sure.


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## Sheldoncooper (Jun 9, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Ack, apologies again if I devolve into a ranting mess. Probably shouldn't comment on these types of topics but I feel very strongly towards them.
> 
> I have to agree with Scutellatus's statement. Just about every Tom, Dick, and Harry are "line-breeding" their reptiles simply for the chance to create something different that will fetch a higher price. But Yellowtail's right, inbreeding can be common in certain wild populations. If a weak specimen is produced from such a pairing, however, mother nature has no qualms snuffing it out. People on the other hand tend to horde such things. Even using the weak animal extensively in their breeding projects because in many cases that particular specimen is the most unusual. This is when line-breeding becomes a problem. That, and when people refuse to out-cross every now and then.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more 
Genetically making animals weaker for a quick buck thats what it seems to be about. I guess people aren't deliberately trying to get weak genetics however playing with mother nature and getting animals that might look different can sometimes be detrimental to the animal.
Silkbacks / trans and dunners are perfect examples in beardies. These traits are dominant genes and not one of them has a positive effect on the animal. There all genes that are negative genes. Tell me a positive trait in a silkback ? A reptile that can't handle uv rays very well and can't shed properly. The dunner gene is the same they have to be out crossed to try and get them to a healthy state. $2 to 3k for a silkback 4 to 5 years ago, what would u pay for one now ? $200 if your lucky and i wouldn't take it anyway. The animal can't tell u how its feeling and I'm guessing a silkback isn't feeling the same as a bearded in its natural state. Do your research and think before u buy. 

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## Pauls_Pythons (Jun 12, 2017)

My apologies before I start this rant but I keep bypassing this thread since it started bagging breeders and talking genetics and money but I can't walk past it anymore.
Line breeding and cross breeding are very different. Cross breeding is banned in some states and should be actively banned across the country in my opinion. Many of the cross breeds are done without any thought and often because some young 'wanna be a breeder' thinks he will make his first 1m from this 'unique' pairing. 

Line breeding is done globally and tbh in Australia we have a better gene pool on our natives than they have in the US or Europe so it's actually less of a problem here. In order to protect animals in the wild line breeding becomes the norm unless you want every Tom, Dick and Harry out in the outback picking up animals to add to their own gene pool. (Big enough problem as it is without adding to it)
Yes *some* of the morphs that have/are being deliberately produced may be pushing the boundaries of logic/common sense but it happens in everything humans get involved in. Please remember that not all breeders are trying to breed something that is likely to be akin to the next silkback or translucent beardy as mentioned above.

Now, the money aspect..........Well I'm a breeder.......(shoot me now). Let me say that if I put in as much time and effort into anything else in the world as I do my reptiles I would make a **** load more money than I do out of breeding. So why do I breed, because it gives me a way to offset the cost of keeping/maintaining my collection while also having the pleasure of being involved in what these animals do in nature. I get to give back to the reptile community while I continue to learn heaps from my animals during this time. (Learning's that I am happy to use to try and help the next generation of herpers along the way)
I have sold plenty of animals at a loss because they have gone to someone who loves reptiles but can't afford the price on them. I'm working full time, (still at my age and after more than 30 years of being involved in reptiles so someone please explain to me why I can't afford to retire yet), so I don't need to make a living from breeding so its not all about the money and no way am I ever going to retire on the pittance that my hobby earns. (Without any breeders where would you get your next reptile fix?)

On a final note....Jags. How many of those on this site who jump in and have a go at the breeders keep or have kept jags? How can you support a cause against breeders then buy a sub standard animal with neurological problems?
If you do your research you will find that some states have bans against the breeding of morphs but its peoples hunger to 'OWN' the next special thing that drives the industry. Some states are active against cross breeds such as SA but it won't stop until the laws are fully enforced with clear boundaries across the country or the people out there stop buying some of the ridiculous crosses that are put together with no thought.

I feel much better for that so I'll get off my soapbox now.


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## Yellowtail (Jun 12, 2017)

Could not have expressed it better


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## BredliFreak (Jun 13, 2017)

Sheldoncooper said:


> I couldn't agree more
> Genetically making animals weaker for a quick buck thats what it seems to be about. I guess people aren't deliberately trying to get weak genetics however playing with mother nature and getting animals that might look different can sometimes be detrimental to the animal.
> Silkbacks / trans and dunners are perfect examples in beardies. These traits are dominant genes and not one of them has a positive effect on the animal. There all genes that are negative genes. Tell me a positive trait in a silkback ? A reptile that can't handle uv rays very well and can't shed properly. The dunner gene is the same they have to be out crossed to try and get them to a healthy state. $2 to 3k for a silkback 4 to 5 years ago, what would u pay for one now ? $200 if your lucky and i wouldn't take it anyway. The animal can't tell u how its feeling and I'm guessing a silkback isn't feeling the same as a bearded in its natural state. Do your research and think before u buy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


It's a similar thing with dogs, I imagine. Look at all the poodles and pugs and small dogs, or pitbulls etc., they all are prone to horrible diseases and should be considered disfigured and genetically retarded, yet every absent minded moron has a pug or poodle. Not trying to call anyone out but if you own these animals you are encouraging an what would be equivalent to neuro jags. On a side note, would you say the albino mutation would be similar, as it makes the skin cells and eyes more sensitive and weaker?


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## cement (Jun 13, 2017)

Hmmm, interesting.
Its not that similar to dogs.... because... and there are now inherent problems with things like jags because....
Nature and time.

Pythons have been in the country for a million years. They have evolved to be (as mentioned) able to inbreed. Great example though not python, is the island tigers.
They evolved immunity ( to some degree) against native vens.
But, they get hammered by cat and dog bite..... They have not evolved to be able to withstand the bacteria from these recently introduced species.

Dogs are a recent invention by man. They have not had the evolutionary time to withstand a reduced gene pool, neither have humans. Jags are the same. there is no evolutionary time frame for jags or any other crossed species of snake to be able to be free of defect. Jags are not a natural evolution, and breeders of these animals have no respect for that.


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## Yellowtail (Jun 13, 2017)

Badly bred dogs are generally caused my human desire to create unnatural characteristics of appearance that are not healthy. They are the result of deliberate line breeding of these unhealthy characteristics.

Jags are not a natural mutation, they are a genetic fault and to continue to breed defective animals should be illegal.
Australian pythons, while genetically almost identical within their species types have evolved differently in appearance, size and behaviour to suit their local environment, often isolated for millennia by geographic features. It is possible to line breed selected characteristics and produce fabulous looking animals that are still healthy and pure to type. I do not see a problem with selective breeding to produce for example better black & gold or black and white jungles and it is possible to breed reduced pattern animals that look like jags without the health problems.

I do not see the logic in cross breeds and it is already apparent that most mixed pythons are worth less than the well bred pure types. I have resisted the temptation to prove my Julatten jungles axanthic by outcrossing as it will produce mongrels.
Albinos are a natural mutation and are healthy and viable except for sensitivity to UV and lack of camouflage which may shorten their life in the wild. There are lots of examples of albino mammals even whales that seem to live long lives and of course humans. Albino darwins can be selectively bred to produce a wide variety of patterns and subtle colours without crossing with jags.


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## Scutellatus (Jun 13, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> Jags are not a natural mutation, they are a genetic fault and to continue to breed defective animals should be illegal.


Isn't it just the Jungle Jags that have the neuro defect? If so then the original Coastal Jags are not a gentic fault but rather a line bred python, bred for patterning characteristics.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 13, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Isn't it just the Jungle Jags that have the neuro defect? If so then the original Coastal Jags are not a gentic fault but rather a line bred python, bred for patterning characteristics.



No all jags can exhibit neuro no matter the dominant % of species


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## Yellowtail (Jun 13, 2017)

Reduced pattern coastals were bred but unfortunately jag genetics that originated in smuggled animals were mixed with a lot of them and now it's hard to tell what they are. All my darwins can be traced back to wild caught animals bred with the original Blondie. The reduced pattern darwins in these photos are not jags, they are pure and the result of selective breeding with a bit of luck throwing occasional nuggets. There are better ones than these bred by others.


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## BredliFreak (Jun 14, 2017)

@cement I wasn't referring to inbreeding but I was referring to line breeding unhealthy traits (like you mentioned). 

@Yellowtail thanks for clarifying that with the albino mutation. Stunning animals btw, that rp darwin is amazing!


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## Scutellatus (Jun 14, 2017)

Aren't inbreeding and line breeding one and the same?


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 14, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Aren't inbreeding and line breeding one and the same?



Yes. Although it is referred as "line-breeding" when related animals are bred together for the purpose of emphasizing particular traits.



Yellowtail said:


> Jags are not a natural mutation, they are a genetic fault and to continue to breed defective animals should be illegal.
> 
> Albinos are a natural mutation and are healthy and viable except for sensitivity to UV and lack of camouflage which may shorten their life in the wild.



Mutations are neither natural or unnatural. They're random. They just happen. Whether they benefit the animal that has received them is a different matter.


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## Wally (Jun 14, 2017)

How did the topic turn from buying hets to line breeding, inbreeding, mutations and jags?


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## kittycat17 (Jun 14, 2017)

Wally said:


> How did the topic turn from buying hets to line breeding, inbreeding, mutations and jags?



I dont remember now but has been interesting that's for sure


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## Wally (Jun 14, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> I dont remember now but has been interesting that's for sure
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yup. I guess so. That and yellowtail photo bombing the thread with more pics of his snakes.


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## Yellowtail (Jun 14, 2017)

Just illustrating that you can produce nice reduced patterns from pure darwins and all 3 in the photos are the result of breeding hets which was the original theme.


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## Lanea (Apr 23, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> Rough scaled pythons are confined to very small areas and must be very inbred and what about populations of snakes on small islands, some of these have been extensively studied and are very healthy, probably evolving their distinctive characteristics over millions of years.



Hi looking at getting my first RSP, and still doing my research. 

Re: your quote above, does this leave RSP's susceptible to any health issues or genetic weaknesses.


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## Yellowtail (Apr 23, 2018)

Lanea said:


> Hi looking at getting my first RSP, and still doing my research.
> 
> Re: your quote above, does this leave RSP's susceptible to any health issues or genetic weaknesses.


No Lanea they seem to be very robust and healthy. Reptiles seem to be ok with in-breeding with many distinct island populations successful. Any faulty genes like Jags etc would probably not be viable and hence not be inherited in the population. Even in mainland populations there is a lot of in-breeding due to the large number of eggs in a clutch and the young staying in the area.


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## Lanea (Apr 23, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> No Lanea they seem to be very robust and healthy. Reptiles seem to be ok with in-breeding with many distinct island populations successful. Any faulty genes like Jags etc would probably not be viable and hence not be inherited in the population. Even in mainland populations there is a lot of in-breeding due to the large number of eggs in a clutch and the young staying in the area.



Thanks, I appreciate this. So unlike (example) dogs that have distinct sought after features by human led inbreeding, then suffer heart or arthritic conditions, or other, some snakes due to smaller locale / community are naturally inbred and unaffected...


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## Mick666 (Apr 24, 2018)

kittycat17 said:


> Thinking of purchasing a poss het axanthic hatchie...
> Is it worth it?
> Are poss hets worth it for any morph in your opinions??
> 
> ...



I'm proving my male coastal out this season, I'll hopefully have hets, visuals, and caramel hets. I will also have some yearlings (caramel hets) from last season. look me up in december / January


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## Neil j (Apr 24, 2018)

If you have an axanthic to breed it to the worst you get 100% hets

I have a question. Do people that breed 66 het x 66 het and not get a visual then label those offspring possible hets once again given the chance of them being 50% hets? That not right imo unless the breeder fully explains it and they are sold at wild type price.
[doublepost=1524539289,1524539074][/doublepost]And not one good thing to say about the jags. Good ole aps


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## Pauls_Pythons (Apr 24, 2018)

Neil j said:


> I have a question. Do people that breed 66 het x 66 het and not get a visual then label those offspring possible hets once again given the chance of them being 50% hets? That not right imo unless the breeder fully explains it and they are sold at wild type price.



I think in most cases the offspring from such a pairing would be sold at a price reflecting face value. It would be unfair to call offspring from such a pairing 50% het as there might be no axanthic genetics in either animal.
Personally I wouldn't bother wasting my time/effort breeding 2 possible hets together unless they had complimenting visual traits.


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## Mick666 (Apr 24, 2018)

Why is it frowned upon to breed and sell snakes? If you put in the time, money and effort to feed, breed and hatch snakes, what's so bad about selling them for a decent price? I plan on hatching 6 or 7 clutches this year, and selling most of the offspring. Some of the pairings will be morphs that will go for a higher price. I don't think I'll ever get rich off snakes, but it would be nice making some income from doing what I love to do. And I don't think anyone would bother breeding snakes if they didn't genuinely love the animals, there's a lot of other (easier, faster, and less bitey) ways to make money.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Apr 24, 2018)

Mick666 said:


> Why is it frowned upon to breed and sell snakes? If you put in the time, money and effort to feed, breed and hatch snakes, what's so bad about selling them for a decent price? I plan on hatching 6 or 7 clutches this year, and selling most of the offspring. Some of the pairings will be morphs that will go for a higher price. I don't think I'll ever get rich off snakes, but it would be nice making some income from doing what I love to do. And I don't think anyone would bother breeding snakes if they didn't genuinely love the animals, there's a lot of other (easier, faster, and less bitey) ways to make money.



Its not frowned upon its just that the ethics of some people are a bit messed up and that has an impact upon peoples opinions of breeders as a whole. Without breeders there would be no hobby.


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## Neil j (Apr 24, 2018)

Cheers Paul. I got a pair of poss hets and was just wondering about it. Yeah I’d only sell them as children’s if they don’t prove out and if I even breed them.


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## Mick666 (Apr 26, 2018)

Neil j said:


> Cheers Paul. I got a pair of poss hets and was just wondering about it. Yeah I’d only sell them as children’s if they don’t prove out and if I even breed them.


het for T+?


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## Neil j (Apr 26, 2018)

Marbles Mick. Visuals can go for 400 dollars. The amount pinky’s to get them going is unreal and the odd reluctance feeder. I don’t think will pairing up at all. But they are cool pets.


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## Mick666 (Apr 26, 2018)

you gonna have some jungle axanthics this year?


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## Neil j (Apr 26, 2018)

No mate not even breeding this year I’m confident my hatchling hets from my duel sired clutch will prove out. 2020 hopefully ax tiger jungles snow clutches ghost jags and ghost zebs.


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## Mick666 (Apr 26, 2018)

how many did you hold back?


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## Neil j (Apr 26, 2018)

3 that I intend to breed. Are hold backs.


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