# Indicus Blond



## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Just thought I would share a photo of one of the Blond Spotteds I got from Indicus a few months ago, they are eating like pigs and colouring up really well.


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## Nome (May 20, 2006)

Nice...he's got the best blonde's available in my opinion.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Yes he has, no doubt about it.


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## krusty (May 20, 2006)

very nice.


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## steve6610 (May 20, 2006)

hi boa,
coming along very nicely, i agree they are up there with the best you can get, my 2 are doing great also, i'll have to get some new pics one day, 

cheers,
steve..........


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## kwaka_80 (May 20, 2006)

how old is it??


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## bigguy (May 20, 2006)

They are not Blonds guys. Indicus lines originate from the northern end of the Atherton Tablelands and are actually a intergrade species btween Stimsons and Maculosus. They are great looking, and I would love some as well, but they are definately not what is named as a Blond Spotted Python. Tremain should name them Atherton Spotteds as they are a totally different form.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Interesting, so there are a lot of people out there with intergrades selling them as 'pure' ? Unwittingly I mean.


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## TrueBlue (May 20, 2006)

what most people refer to as blond macs are a form of macs from the cook town area, although not all cook town macs show this tait. but these were the original macs that this name was given to.
There are other locales where you will find pure blond macs but the cook towns are the original blond macs.


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## Nephrurus (May 20, 2006)

> They are not Blonds guys. Indicus lines originate from the northern end of the Atherton Tablelands and are actually a intergrade species btween Stimsons and Maculosus. They are great looking, and I would love some as well, but they are definately not what is named as a Blond Spotted Python. Tremain should name them Atherton Spotteds as they are a totally different form.



Thats very interesting Bob. I guess there are a whole heap of different looking forms out there. I'd be interested to know the locality of your blondes so we have an idea of what sort of distance separates these two forms. 
Perhaps we could see some pictures of your blondes and compare to Tremain's (more pictures should keep everyone happy!).

-H


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

I would be interested to see just who does have 'real' Blondes then. The antaresia waters are so muddied I'm not sure many people know exactly what they have.


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## rexs1 (May 20, 2006)

peter krauss has been selling proper blonds for years


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## rexs1 (May 20, 2006)

have a look at david barkers book, pythons of the world on page 62 in the top right hand photo.

It is a good indication of what a blonde maccy should look like


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## CodeRed (May 20, 2006)

bigguy said:


> They are not Blonds guys. Indicus lines originate from the northern end of the Atherton Tablelands and are actually a intergrade species btween Stimsons and Maculosus. They are great looking, and I would love some as well, but they are definately not what is named as a Blond Spotted Python. Tremain should name them Atherton Spotteds as they are a totally different form.



Thats an eye opener. 

I have some blondes from Shane Skarf (related to your line Bob?) and from Ad (tremaines line) and they are very similar looking. The pics were taken under different lighting but under the same light they are roughly the same colour. Either way I am very happy with both lines.

Firstly a hatchy from Ad's line:





and one from Shane's line


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## ad (May 20, 2006)

Blond is a hair colour - it is a term that has been adopted to pale background maculosa.
It is not area related whatsoever.
Tremain should call his Tableland Macs and Bob call his Cooktown Macs maybe? I doubt it - people look at both lines and say 'there's a blonde mac' regardless.
I dont see a 'better' line - both have stunning animals.
Cheers
Ad


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## bigguy (May 20, 2006)

Boa, Indicus line is pure. Its just not a Blond Mac. Its something totally different and just as startling. As for Blond Macs, this is a name I gave(disputed by one individual)nearly 20 years ago to a race of maculosus found from just north of Cairns to Cooktown. They grow slightly bigger on average than most Macs, their sides are flank yellow, and have less patterning. There are many areas in North Qld(Mt Surprise to Georgetown) where you find macs with reduced markings and pale backgrounds, but they are not the same form. Most grow far smaller and fail to have the yellow sides.

Rex1, the pics in Barkers book are of my animals. Dave and his wife spent quite some time at my house taking pics of my snakes. Dave had the same line in the USA and had no idea where they had come from till he saw I had the same form. I informed Dave they are from south eastern Cape York.

CodeRed, Ad has more then just Tremains line. Are you sure that the top pic you showed is pure Tremain line, or is it from some other line or crossed.


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## CodeRed (May 20, 2006)

Bob, yes you are right, only Ad's male (I think) came from Tremaine. Ad can you confirm this?


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## ad (May 20, 2006)

Yeah CodeRed, Tremains male - Cooktown female (not bob's line)


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## PilbaraPythons (May 20, 2006)

There are many different maculosa forms or morphs found throughout north Queensland. Traditionally speaking , Bob is right in what he is saying about the Cooktown Blondes in regards to having the Blonde tag associated with that area originally. The thing to remember is that you do not find stimsoni in the Cooktown area but where a lot of other maculosa of blonde colouration are found in areas where stimsons start and in some areas you can find clear colouration and pattern examples of both e.g between George Town and Mt Surprise, Mt Carbine etc. With this in mind you would have to say that the Cooktown form are 100 percent pure Mac and areas like Mt carbine and George Town would have to be mixtures of both and of course natural intergrades of both species. Also the stimsoni form that surround these north east areas are very small pythons compared to other forms of stimsons and a lot smaller than maculosa.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Bob, I understand what you are saying, I wrote 'pure' as in not from a single species rather an intergrade. So the term Blond is area related and is not just attributed to a pale coloured maculosa ? As you put the name forward I guess you have the final word on that 
Because of this confusion there are probably few 'real' Blonds as they are a mix of many different areas. So if you buy one then buy it for what it is visually and forget about the locale details ?


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## ad (May 20, 2006)

> Because of this confusion there are probably few 'real' Blonds as they are a mix of many different areas.


You are misinterpreting something here Boa.
Bob's are from cooktown - Tremains are from the tablelands.


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## bigguy (May 20, 2006)

Heres a pic of what I origionaly named as the Blond Spotted Pythons. You will note the yellow sides and the lack of patterns on the back. This is the standard colouration for this form.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Bob, the male I got from you shows no sign of any yellow from what I can tell. I don't want to disturb it as he's mating at the moment 
As it came from a definite Blond but doesn't exhibit this Blond trait how can it be defined clearly as a Blond ?


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## steve6610 (May 20, 2006)

hi bob,
it doesn't mean anything to me if yours are the real deal or not, but what interests me is your
first post stating that tremains are a intergrade between maccies and stimmys, that means everybody that
has tremains blondes not only own hybrids but are making more hybrids when they are breeding them,
thats a very interesting conversation starter, 
i'm not trying to say your wrong bob, just that i've always thought of blondes being a colour phase and not 
a location , but i've learnt something new tonight, and i guess those who only want to breed pure locaction 
or pure snakes will be having a look at their blondes.............. 
might be some nice blondes coming onto the market, 

cheers,
steve...........


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## Ramsayi (May 20, 2006)

steve6610 said:


> hi bob,
> it doesn't mean anything to me if yours are the real deal or not, but what interests me is your
> first post stating that tremains are a intergrade between maccies and stimmys, that means everybody that
> has tremains blondes not only own hybrids but are making more hybrids when they are breeding them,
> ...



I think he might of been saying that they are (naturally occuring) intergrades


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## Dicco (May 20, 2006)

Indicus' animals are not hybrids, they are animals from where the ranges of two species overlap and have a 'melting pot' of genetic material, they have the genetics of the subspecies on either side, but are different to both. This isn't a thing that would have happened over a short period of time, it would have beed gradual. Because of this they could be described as 'intergrades' - where two things have gradually come together to form a new thing or where one thing has gradually changed to another to form an intermidiate(the one 'in the middle' - . They are still pure, so if you breed them to animals from the same area you are not creating hybrids  

If you were to find another Carpet Python from the same area as your Pot Mac Python - or intergrade as many call this form - then it it would be a pure form Carpet Python, Steve.( If yours is a true Port Mac form Carpet, then I encourage you too breed it to another true Port Mac matey! They are hard to find and much of what is out there are simply Diamond/Brisbane crosses.)

I hope Sdaji is preparing the popcorn for this thread


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## Magpie (May 20, 2006)

What i assume Steve is saying though, is that by Pairing a Withey blonde with an Indicus blonde is creating a hybrid.


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## Magpie (May 20, 2006)

oops


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## Ramsayi (May 20, 2006)

Yeah mags we got it the first time


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## steve6610 (May 20, 2006)

hi dicco,
i totally agree with you, but you also know i got heaps for breeding my intergrade 
to my coastal, what i'm saying is that IF bob is right and tremains are a intergrade then anybody
breeding tremains to say one of bobs would be making a hybrid or cross, 

and before anybody gets the wrong idea as far as i'm concerned tremains are pure blondes
and having seen the adults are in my opinion the best around, i just find it wrong that anybody
can say that they are intergrades or anything else, 

i'm going to be very interested in reading tremains responce to what started out as a thread
about how nice tremains blondes looked, not about who found the first blonde or who had
the real blondes, 

cheers,
steve..............
ps. again this is just my own opinion and no way means that anybody elses are wrong.................


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## Dicco (May 20, 2006)

Ah, I see what you mean with breeding one of Inducus' to one of Bob's now.


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

Dicco said:


> Indicus' animals are not hybrids, they are animals from where the ranges of two species overlap and have a 'melting pot' of genetic material, they have the genetics of the subspecies on either side, but are different to both. This isn't a thing that would have happened over a short period of time, it would have beed gradual.
> 
> I hope Sdaji is preparing the popcorn for this thread



Actually, Dicco, that would make them hybrids. Many species come from hybrids, in some cases there are continued hybrid events over thousands of years, in some cases it is only in one direction, in some cases the hybrids arrise as a once off hybridisation event, but they're still very much hybrids, even hundreds of thousands of years later. What you describe (which may not be what happened in the case of Atherton Antaresia), is most certainly hybridisation, it actually sounds a bit like what some people would say if they were asked to give an example of how a species of hybrid origin came to be.

/me hands you some popcorn.


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## Dicco (May 20, 2006)

Oh, righto, so they are still classified as hybridsafter all that, would I be correct in assuming due to the nature of their 'creation' that they could be described as intergrades by definition even though they are still technically a race of hybrids?

/me accepts the popcorn and puts his feet up


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## steve6610 (May 20, 2006)

thats what i meant dicco, as you know i've had this thrown at me for ages, and it's just a very interesting subject as bob is very well known in the herping circles and i'm really looking forward to reading his next reply, come on bob i'm waiting, lol, 

cheers,
steve.........


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

The term 'intergrade' is really vague. After studying hybrid species in the lab for years and attending seminars on hybrid species, presented by people who are experts in this area, I'm yet to hear a professional biologist use the term 'intergrade'. In the modern biological dictionaries, intergrade isn't even there, although I did find an entry in an old biological dictionary, which for memory said something like "an intermediate population, usually as the result of hybridisation". I never choose to use the term and frankly, find it little more than annoying. What ever the meaning of the term, it is frequently used by reptile people in mutually exclusive ways, so I see no point in discussing it further here.

I'm not familiar with the origins of Atherton Antaresia, but would have guessed they were maculosa. If they are of hybrid origin, they're still locality pure, the population they come from is completely natural and they'd be no less desirable to me.

For the record, of the animals I keep, perhaps the species I'm most fascinated by are my parthenogenetic Bynoe's geckoes, which are hybrids, as the result of one hybridisation event between two species, then a back cross, and then no more hybridisation for over 100,000 years. There is absolutely no way any biologist I know would call them intergrades. The grasshoppers I've been working on for about 18 months are hybrids, from hybridisation which occurred around 100,000 years ago, if I called them intergrades when talking to any biologist I know, the response would be a blank face.


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## Hickson (May 20, 2006)

All of a sudden this thread got really interesting (for me anyway).



Sdaji said:


> ...Bynoe's geckoes, which are hybrids, as the result of one hybridisation event between two species, then a back cross, and then no more hybridisation for over 100,000 years...The grasshoppers I've been working on for about 18 months are hybrids, from hybridisation which occurred around 100,000 years ago..



I'm curious how you know it was a hybridisation event that spawned these tow species, and not the usual evolution for selected adaptations. And what do you mean by "back cross" in this context - back cross to what? If they were two dfifferent species spawning a hybrid, how can that be a back cross?



Hix

(Note: Re my first statement - I'm not suggesting the discussion of Maculosa is not interesting, just that Sdaji's statements I found really interesting.)


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## CageKennylz (May 20, 2006)

So they are pretty much hybrids?
Im sure most if not all snakes have been crossed somewhere along the line.
I don't get the whole "intergrade" thing it just seems like wild hybrids to me
JMO


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## indicus (May 20, 2006)

A nice looking blond there Boa....oh sorry; better call it a Mac....mmmmm, how about pale mac?, light mac? :roll: 
Either way, i can assure you the juv's you purchased from me are as mac as can be........not an intergrade as Bob has suggested.
I do however have a line of Mac's that does display odd colour and traits ( platinum blonds) which Bob will be referring to.
It's still to early to tell at this stage whether it is an intergrade line; but going off a few juv's from this years clutch, it's odd to say the least.
Heres two pictures of two juv 'platinum blonds' from the same clutch.....one has a slight saddle appearance to it's pattern.....(stimmi looking?)
The other is just light in colour.......whether this is a intergrade line?; it's still till early to tell; however appears it maybe the case.....


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## DanN (May 20, 2006)

So Bob/Bigguy.

You were the one who first described the Blond Mac, do you think that they are a seperate subspecies?

What about the Macs further up CYP? Do they show typical Mac colours or Blond characteristics?

Have you done work on any other species in the area?

Cheers

Dan


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## indicus (May 21, 2006)

Here's some more normal looking mac's, from our normal line......
They share the same father; but different mother.....one looks almost like a blond?
I can only hope; wonder what the experts think?..... :shock:


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## Sdaji (May 21, 2006)

Hix said:


> All of a sudden this thread got really interesting (for me anyway).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the case of the geckoes, it's very easy (well, easy for me to understand now that other people have done the hard work  ). To avoid typing for two or three pages, I'll give the 'nutshell sized' version. They are triploid, two sets of chromosomes coming from one species of Heteronotia, one from another. There has been no recombination between the 'odd' set of chromosomes and the other two. With this information, and knowing that the species is an obligate parthenogen, reproducing clonally, we can deduce that there must be an intermediate form, a parthenogenetic diploid hybrid. This hybrid backcrossed to one of the parental (sexual) species (obviously a diploid hybrid parthenogen with a 'normal' sexual male of one parental species), creating a triploid parthenogen. We can work out which species was male and female by looking at the mitochondria, which is clonally carried through from the original sexual female to the diploid parthenogen and then to the triploid back cross. We can work out which species the back cross male was, by looking at which species' DNA is represented twice in the triploid genome. We can work out how long ago this happened using molecular clocks in the mtDNA.

As for the grasshoppers, they're diploid, so it's even easier. A lot of the work was done a few decades ago and was cutting edge at the time. The parthenogenetic species (Warramamba virgo) is a hybrid between W. P169 and W. P196 (soon to be given 'proper' names). Phenotypically, P169 and P196 are extremely different, so much that at first, the guy who proved that virgo was a hybrid between the two wouldn't even accept that P169 was part of the phylogenetic group at all. It was discovered that virgo was a parthenogen when someone was out collecting morabine grasshoppers and noticed that all of this species was female. The grasshoppers (virgo) look just like W. P196, so it was assumed it was just a parthenogenetic form, back then they couldn't do fancy genotyping, just crude karyotyping. Don't ask me how, but another researcher came up with the hypothesis that virgo was a hybrid between P169 and P196, Michael White thought that was absurd, as he didn't even think P169 was remotely related to either. To attempt to disprove his critic, Michael White kept P169 and P196 together, to show that hybrids couldn't be produced, but he ended up proving his critic right, as he did produce hybrids and they were parthenogens! More recently, more advanced genetic testing (which I've had the privelage of watching the process of and then sharing the excitement of the fresh results) have confirmed the hybrid findings. Again, by looking at the mtDNA, we can determine which of the sexual species supplied sperm and which supplied eggs. The recent testing has also shown that there are many, many more clones than were initially thought, and also that these clones arrose from different populations which were genetically and phenotypically quite distinct (the sexual species/populations are still around and we can still go and collect them for comparisons). Again, 'molecular clocks' in the mtDNA are used to estimate how long ago the hybridisation events occurred.

Does that answer your questions? I can ramble on a bit more if it doesn't  Parthenogens are lots of fun


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## Hickson (May 21, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Does that answer your questions?


Partially.

The statements make some sort of sense, but I can't mentally validate (or fully comprehend) them. Probably because it's 1:30 in the AM.

Will read it all again tomorrow, it should sink in then. 

Thanks!



Hix


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## daveyg1 (May 21, 2006)

in the last post from indicus 
the one in the top picture definitely has yellow flanks
and less pattern. so it must be a blonde yeh?


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## AdamR (May 21, 2006)

My humble opinion. Just remember what you bought the snake as. A blonde Mac. If it was called a blond stimi would it make a difference. If it was called a blonde stimi/mac intergrade/hybrid would it have made a difference. Im assuming the snake was bought because it looks nice, reputed to be a good behaved snake, and can produce viable offspring. In the end as long as its sold as what it is, does it matter what it is? Are less people going to buy these snakes now due to hybridisation that could have occurred many thousands of years ago? I know i still really like them.

Adam
Again, think what you will, this is my opinion.


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

Indicus, I love the snakes I bought and really don't care if they are Macs/Stimsons or a bit of both. Having said that I think they are pure Maculosa. 
As I said earlier the waters are very muddy, the Blond I bought from Bob has no yellow on it's flanks so doesn't display the obvious Blond characteristics.
To answer AdamR's question, no it makes no difference whatsoever. I have no issues with hybrids/crosses/intergrades.


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## ad (May 21, 2006)

> As I said earlei the waters are very muddy


With Bob's line or Tremains? What is 'muddy' to you boa?


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## bwana (May 21, 2006)

Hi All,
This is how the Blonde got it's name.
In 1984 I received a book from an american friend call the Keeper and the Kept by Carl Kauffeld 1969. In this book it's describes the authors seach for the trans peco rat snake which comes in two colour phases normal and Blonde.
My friend and I were at Port Douglas, Nth QLD. We had found 9 or 10 mac's and out of these, there were two that were much lighter with a purple brown zig- zag from the neck down. My friend instantly said "Hey they are Blonde phase just like the the subocularis in Kauffeld's book." So my friend Adrian C.... christend them Blonde's not Bob.
A couple of years later Bobwas given a pair of these snakes and I told him the story. 
Just because you spread the news doesn't mean you make it Bob.!
So the original Blonde's came from Port Douglas not Cook Town as stated by others. Although they are found in Cook Town (One in Twelve if you're lucky). they are few and far between. Helenvale has some nice mac's. Some of the nicest Blonde's come from a place called Silver Valley. 
Cheers


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## PilbaraPythons (May 21, 2006)

SSHHH, I was trying to keep Silver Valley secret :lol: 
I have only seen a few at Port Douglas myself with indicus and they were quite nice. I have though seen lots of them at HelensVale and although they had yellow flecks on their sides they weren't as good as what I had seen in Cook Town or Port Douglas.


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## steve6610 (May 21, 2006)

this is getting even more interesting, i must say the first pic tremain posted looks like one of bobs blondes, so just maybe a blonde is just a blonde no matter who bred them or where they came from, 

bwana you have really made some very interesting points, i must say your answers seem more believable then a few others i've heard, 

and for the record just in case your missed it, i have a pair of tremains blondes and i wouldn't swap them for any other blondes going around, but thats my opinion, and i also have a pair of so called blondes from somebody else and if their true blondes i'll be very surprised, 

i also bought a pair of maccies from peter krasse? about 4 years ago and a friend still has the female and in peters own words he wasn't certain they were blondes as he was lead to believe, he sold them to me as light or caramel coloured maccies, not blondes, but in saying that, they still turned out to be very nice coloured maccies, just not as blonde as tremains or bobs, but that doesn't mean they aren't blondes, 

cheers,
steve.........


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

Yes as you say it's very interesting. I don't doubt Tremains Blonds one bit and I have to assume Bobs are 'true' as well but outside of the main lines the waters as I said are pretty muddy with all sorts of animals being called Blond.


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## steve6610 (May 21, 2006)

here is one of my pairs of so called blondes, won't say where it came from, just that they are well known, 
is this a blonde or just a normal maccie?
male first,
female second........


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## daveyg1 (May 21, 2006)

im not sure if this is what you mean by 'muddy' boa
but i have replied to ads advertising blonde macs for sale in the past
only to get photos of animals much darker than my standard maccies.
breeders definitely have very different opinions on what is a blonde.


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

Looks like a slightly pale normal.


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## daveyg1 (May 21, 2006)

steve how old are they?


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

Yes that is exactly what I mean, a snake is slightly lighter and it becomes a Blond or the breeder was told by someones friend that the snakes they have are Blonds.



daveyg1 said:


> im not sure if this is what you mean by 'muddy' boa
> but i have replied to ads advertising blonde macs for sale in the past
> only to get photos of animals much darker than my standard maccies.
> breeders definitely have very different opinions on what is a blonde.


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## steve6610 (May 21, 2006)

hi dav ,
they were about 14 months old when the pic was taken, 

cheers,
steve.............


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## indicus (May 21, 2006)

Where's Bob???
As usuial, in for the bite and gone again.
I must admit i was a little upset when i returned home to read this thread.
Bob who pushed your button?, your've only seen a few pic's of a few of our animals;
and dont know what or how many we breed.......
I find it interesting your interpretation of what a blonde childrens is; a subject i happen to have an interest in.
Let me be the first to tell you that alot of Mac's in the North have yellow sides and or sparse pattern.
This is not restricted trait to cooktown form animals.....I'm sure if you'd spent more time up here,
rather then a few trips; you'd agree the variation and similarity is quite remarkable regardless where you look.
Bob theres no doubt you breed some very stunning Mac's; however to say their 'blondes' over others is 
a joke!!! especially going on what you describe as a blonde......
In my oppion until further studies prove otherwise; any Mac derived from the tablelands and further north that have a considerable light colouration can be called a Blonde, regardless of size.....after all it's just a colour.


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## steve6610 (May 21, 2006)

well said tremain, you know my feelings on your blondes and i'm guessing there are lots of other people that own them feel the same as me, i wonder if the lack of sales has anything to do with comments that have been made about your top blondes, i know who i'll be calling when i want a second pair, 

cheers,
steve..........


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## PilbaraPythons (May 21, 2006)

I wouldn't be to worried about Bobs comments as the way I read it he was saying they were stunning but just different looking than the Cook Town morphs. You could argue that he promoted them.


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## bigguy (May 21, 2006)

Boa,

The only reason I would have for the lack of the yellow flanks is that I introduced a few new bloodlines a few years back. These may be genectly different to my major lines and may not throw the yellow flanks. As I have not raised any myself, I have no idea how they would turn out.

Indicus, I DO NOT run after my posts. I simply have a job that takes me away from home on a frequent basis and do not live at the PC screen 24/7. As for my comments re your lines. Yes, you were correct, they were aimed at your intergrade line that is always been shown on this site. Boas pic to me appears to be from that line . As for the other pics you posted, I have no doubt whatsoever they are macs of high quality. As Dave pointed out I did promote your line, but simply pointed out they were not blonds and should be namesd something different..

As for the comments of my knowledge of macs localities in northern Qld, I seem to remember telling you exactly were your intergrades were collected from, which you confirmed to me as being correct. I have spend a huge amount of time in these areas in my younger days.


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## bigguy (May 22, 2006)

I was not the first to ever keep these great looking snakes, and have never claimed to be. But I did come up with the Blond name dispite what Bwanna may state.

In 1982, whilst visiting Neil Charles in Brisbane, I was shown this startling form of mac for the first time. Neil had 2 pairs of adults approx 4.5 ft long. It was at this point I came up with the Blond term. I was informed by Neil that these had come from Tully(which turned out to be incorrect) For the next few years I spent large amounts of time in North Qld looking in the wrong area for this form.

In approx 1986 I met Bwanna who had in his collection a male mac which was the closest I had seen to the Neil Charles form. Bwanna did inform me that it was infact collected from Port Douglas area. I informed him that this appeared very similar to the Blond form I was chasing. 

In 1987, with the help of Rob Bredl, I finally obtained 2 specimens of what I deemed full-on Blonds from a keeper in Cooktown(Barry Grey). Over the next few years Barry supplied me more specimens which became the basis for my lines which are now in collections all over Australia.

From 1987 till 1994 I did many field trips in these areas and found that the form I called Blonds were found from just north of Cairns to Cooktown.The closer to Cooktown, the better they appeared on average. Once past Cooktown they appeared to revert to the standard form. I also found a race of Blond lookalikes living on the western slopes of the Athertons as far south as Greenvale to north of Mt Malloy and as far west as Georgetown. Even though this form did have reduced patterning resembling the coastal blond form, they all lacked the yellow flanks and were mere pygmies compared to true Blonds.

I try to keep my lines as locality specific as I can. By doing this you know you have a pure form. If Indicus was to market his intergrade line as Platinum macs, and if you named the western form something different, then you now have 3 totally different quality forms to keep. But as Boa stated, its a bit muddy when all 3 forms are labeled as Blonds and are crossbred, even though they are all different. 

If you guys wish to call any pale mac a blond, be my guest. Next you will be calling all your Womas Topaz's lines like Simon Stones form.


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## Retic (May 22, 2006)

Just in case anyone is interested here is the female of the pair.


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## indicus (May 22, 2006)

G'day Bob,
If the Platinum Mac's do prove to be a natural intergrade, it's only obivious that one would market them under a different name.......why?; aaahhhh because their different!!!!.
Inregards to your blonde classifaction; my suggestion is that you do the rescearch properly before making any further claims, as to what one should be called a Blonde....
Bob i live here; i see and have seen more northern Mac's then most people......Be a-bit like me trying to tell you about your local diamonds.....Bob whether you want to acknowledge it or not; the truth is that alot of tableland mac's do infact have the yellow flanks.....which according to what you believe; is a distingishing feature of a Blonde. Even locations like Cooktown have animals that do and dont display that characteristic.
If you wish to discuss this further; for your own interest; you have my number, feel free to give me a call.....


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## bwana (May 22, 2006)

Hey Bob,
Neil does remember you visiting him at Graceville where he show you 3 mac's that he obtained from Barry Searl.
He remembers that you were worried because you had locked your persian cat in your XF ford station wagon.
Your only problem is your date. 
Neil wasn't living at Graceville in 1982.
The XF ford wasn't available until 1984


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## bigguy (May 22, 2006)

Bwana

Neil has the visits mixed up. I first visited Neil with my wife in my XC falcon wagon. There was no cat with us. In about 1988 I remember taking Terry Pullen and Scott Collien to Neil Charles residence in my 1987 XF falcon. On this trip I did lock a cat in my car. Right car, wrong trip.

As usual you get half the facts and twist them up in an attempt to discredit my name. Its not the first time you have tried, and I am sure it wont be the last. Keep up the good work and maybe oneday you will get something right.


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## bwana (May 22, 2006)

Hi,
Bob does have a point in regards to the fact that it has been known for many years that Mt Carbine has a population of pythons that appear to be a natural occurring cross between Antaresia maculosa and A.stimsoni. 
The mother of the "platinum's" was of this type.... 
The father is a A. maculosa.
There is no doubt that Boa's first pic does appear to have A. stimsoni characteristics. 
In regards to the naming of blonde's, Bob has popularised this name almost singlehandly and some of the nicest blonde's in the country come from Bob's line.
I agree that Tremain's "platinum's" are not blonde mac's as Bob stated.
Tremain can you post the pic's of the female who produced the platinums and maybe the father.


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## bigguy (May 22, 2006)

I just recd a call from Tremain. After some discussion he does agree with me on the range of what is referred to as Blond Macs. He also agrees with the other 2 forms that I had previosly mention.

As for Boas macs, they are definately from the area Blonds occur. The mum is from just north of Cairns on the coast, whereas the male is from the further inland at about the same level of the southern range. I had origionally thought Tremain had bred Boas from his weird tableland line, but was mistaken. They are Blonds, just different to what I am used to due to the southern range.


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## Retic (May 22, 2006)

Well guys that is good to hear, now can I safely assume that I have some of the most beautiful Blond maculosa on the planet ? :lol: :lol:


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## FAY (May 22, 2006)

Nice to see you fellas deal with this thread like adults!!


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## Bono888 (May 22, 2006)

What ever area they come from blondes are great looking little pythons. My guy's are Bob's line and are a joy to my collection.


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## Bono888 (May 22, 2006)

Male and Female


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## daveyg1 (May 22, 2006)

there great looking blondes you have there bono


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## Bono888 (May 22, 2006)

Thanks daveyg1. Very happy wiyh theses guys.


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## Jason (May 22, 2006)

nice looking snakes every one, blonds or not, imo blonds are great, i have some of skarfys and im rapped with them. what determines a blood to me is the zig zag pattern down the back, the light background and the nice redy colour in the blotches. either way some stunning snakes and i cant wait to see what becomes of them.


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## Honeypython (May 23, 2006)

*Blonde Macs*

Im fasinated by Blonde Macs and always interested in seeing other Blondes.

I have only bee in reptiles for a short while and it started off with a little Central Bearded Dragon, Lennie (Was lizzie but found out she was in fact a he  )who just keeps getting better and better and more recently I became the owner of Blonde Mac, Josie.

I got her from Shane Scarff who was a pleasure to deal with and couldnt have been more helpful. She eats like a champion and has a lovley nature.

I have attached a few pictures of her.


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## indicus (May 23, 2006)

Hi Bwana
I'll sort out a few photo's today.......
Some nice looking mac's Bono & Honey
Cheers Tree


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

I look forward to seeing those.


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## Kyro (May 23, 2006)

Hi everyone, I just wanted to show off a bit with some pics of our Blonde Mac. We got her off a well known sydney breeder & have so far found her to be an awesome natured little snakey, great handler & she feeds well


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## Bono888 (May 23, 2006)

I bought this Python off a guy on Herp Trader a couple of years advertised as a standard Mac. Im not so sure if it is just a standard Mac. Any body have any opinions? I dont know its origins unfortunately or the breeder.

Here is a picture of him.


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## Bono888 (May 23, 2006)

And a couple of photo's to compare it with.

Thats him in the top right hand corner.


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## Bono888 (May 23, 2006)

And in the middle of this pic. Top python is from Bob, bottom python standard Mac.


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## zulu (May 23, 2006)

*re Indicus*

Heres my female from bigguy bono


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## Bono888 (May 23, 2006)

Nice Zulu  She looks a big girl too!!


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## SteveM (May 23, 2006)

I bought a pair of Indicus Blonde macs about 4 months ago - so far one hasnt lightened at all and looks like a normal brown Mac and the female is only slightly lighter than normal muddy brown.


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

That's a big surprise, it is very hard to say what they will turn out like. Mine are very different to the way they looked when
I got them.


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## indicus (May 23, 2006)

Thats a shame Steve, goes to show you carnt always get it right.......your only had them two and bit months; give them some time, you maybe supprised how they colour up.....put some pic's up if you get a chance.
Here's a picture of the mother of yours Boa; the father is in full shed mode; i'll get decent pic's of him soon.......


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## indicus (May 23, 2006)

Here's the grandmother of the platinum line; mated with the same father as yours Boa to produce the mother; that produced this seasons platinums.....


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## indicus (May 23, 2006)

Here's platinum mother and babies.......


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## Pike01 (May 23, 2006)

Ive seen spotteds like that platinum at townsville, doubt they are hybrids there.


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## NoOne (May 23, 2006)

Looking great Tremain, i remember old Browny telling me about those platinum blondes a few years back.
Might have to get a couple off you one day :wink: 

heres one of my girls who is currently being mated:


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## Snow1369 (May 23, 2006)

The Platinum babies look great!


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## pugsly (May 23, 2006)

Everytime I think I have enough snakes another one comes along...

Damn you all!


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## Pike01 (May 24, 2006)

Heres one from Townsville that looks kinda platinum.


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

very small spots for a maccie, but i like........... want to sell it?

cheers,
steve...........


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## Pike01 (May 24, 2006)

Not mine, was a wild one


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

bummer...............

i'm glad to see you did the right thing and let it go..........

cheers,
steve.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

He didn't say that Steve. :wink: Just joking. :lol: 



steve6610 said:


> i'm glad to see you did the right thing and let it go..........
> 
> cheers,
> steve.


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

pmsl.........

sorry if i misunderstood you pike1, pmsl...........

if you did keep it i'd still be interested in buying it, just don't tell anybody 
and we can keep it between us, lol, 

please insert heaps of smilies here...................... just joking pike1, 
still think it's a great mac..........

cheers,
steve.........


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## Snow1369 (May 24, 2006)

Pike1 that's a great looking mac...i don't realli like macs but if i was to get one it would def be a platinum or something like the one you caught ......that's great!


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## Bono888 (May 24, 2006)

Indicus do you think this could be one of your blondes? I bought it as an adult advertised as a standard Mac :roll: . The more I look at the pics in this thread the more its looking like a blonde from your line. Especially the pics you posted on page 6 of the mother to Boa's blonde and the grandmother of your platinum line. Any feed back from you would be much appreciated  .

This is him in the top right of the first photo and in the middle of the second pic.


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## Bono888 (May 24, 2006)

This shows it a little better.


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## orsm (May 24, 2006)

Can Indicus or Bigguy (or someone else) summarise the locality of these pythons then? The locality seems unclear to me.


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## roadkill5000 (May 24, 2006)

took the trip out to bobs today and saw his blonds and they are awesome. so much better in real life than any photo of them. for those of you who havent seen them in the flesh yet id advise you to. you wont regret it. thanks again bob for showing me around and giving me a few pointers you really know your stuff.


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## indicus (May 27, 2006)

I agree Pike1, a very nice looking Mac.....I've been told of some stunning animals from that have originated from Townsville.
Looking great Dunga; please send us some pic's of the juv's she produces......what a stunner!!!
Great looker their to Zulu; got to be happy with that.....
Hi Bono.....Thanks for the pic's mate. The animal which your asking about; is not unlike examples found on the Atherton Tablelands.......
I doubt it's one of our line; however it's possible ; as i parted with a couple a few years ago as trade for some juv lacies.....
Either way to get it as a standard mac; what a pick up.....

Hi Orsm...... To keep it simple, blondes seem to be more alike each other inregards to colour and pattern on the coast; from Cairns and further north;
some ugly, some stunning, but generally speaking share the same traits. The further you go west, up the great divide and onto the tablelands they
can vary considerably.....both in pattern colour and traits. With the western water sheds like the Mitchell river etc flowing in from the north west some areas have mac's that seem to share common traits with simpsoni. To complicate the matter, some appear all mac, part mac, definate simpsoni.....however drive 10k's down the road and all you'll see is a cracker blonde. Even though i agree with Bob in part where blonde's occur, i dont share the same view on 'what classifies as a blonde'
It's easy to say a blonde's got yellow sides.....however only with scale counts and more importantly some DNA tests in the near future, we'll have a better understanding on what really classifies as a blonde and where they really range......


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## Bono888 (May 28, 2006)

indicus said:


> I agree Pike1, a very nice looking Mac.....IHi Indicus. Thanks for the information mate. Much appreciated.
> 
> Matt..


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## Bono888 (May 28, 2006)

Whoops  Dam that quote button :evil: Ment to just thank Indicus :lol:


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## Mr_48Volts (Jun 5, 2006)

I think I've found my 1st snake. A blonde Mac, very nice!


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