# Orange Pepper



## Variety (Aug 23, 2013)

What exactly is it ? Recessive ? Co-Dom ?

The complete carpet python book has the silver peppered and says it had appeared in a random clutch and they believe its recessive but not yet proven, Is this the same blood line just bread to something else or something completely different ? Haven't heard much of these so any input would be appreciated,

Cheers


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## saximus (Aug 23, 2013)

My understanding is it's a hypo jag. Info about exactly what it is does seem difficult to find though. 
It's definitely not the same as Hugstas silver peppers though.

EDIT
Found this on SXR site:



> The Orange Pepper was named by SXR to describe progeny derived from crossing a Coastal RPM and a Caramel Coastal Carpet Python. Both snakes are a product of co-dominant genes. The resultant double het offspring have extremely reduced black markings and typically an attractive orange to yellow background colour.


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## Grogshla (Aug 23, 2013)

They seem really cool. I was told that the orange peppers and the caramels colour darken up over time is this true?


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## Dmnted (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm not sure if the OP's are like Jungles and muddy up at 4-5 years but here is a photo of my male super OP.
It looks the same as the day I got it if not brighter at 2.5 years.


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## Variety (Aug 23, 2013)

Dmnted said:


> I'm not sure if the OP's are like Jungles and muddy up at 4-5 years but here is a photo of my male super OP.
> It looks the same as the day I got it if not brighter at 2.5 years.



Please do not take this the wrong way but if its derived from a jag does this mean they're prone to neoro problems ? And if so does the cross back to a "Normal" coastal decrease the chances of that ?


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## Dmnted (Aug 23, 2013)

Ok, I can see where this is going to go 
We all know that neuro is associated with the Jag gene however, I have not seen any sign of neuro in my OP's.
As for the "cross back" the jag gene is co dom so they either get it or they dont.
Jag sibs should not show any neuro and from my chats with plenty of Jag breeders including Doc from SXR, the severity and frequency of neuro experienced with jags seem to be over exaggerated.
Doc said he ever only experiences 1 out of every clutch that might show any signs of neuro and even then, they tend to be slight.
I am sure there are extreme cases but from my discussions, it doesn't seem to be the norm.


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## nintendont (Aug 23, 2013)

Dmnted said:


> Ok, I can see where this is going to go
> We all know that neuro is associated with the Jag gene


Orange Pepper= RPM= Jag


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## Peterwookie (Aug 23, 2013)

nintendont said:


> Orange Pepper= RPM= Jag


= so what's your point


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## Grogshla (Aug 23, 2013)

they look incredible no matter what they are! I would love one!


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## SteveNT (Aug 23, 2013)

Looks like it's on bleach. Each to their own I suppose.


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## andynic07 (Aug 23, 2013)

I bet if someone posted something about about a snake that was housed next to a jag the questions about neuro would come up.


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## Dmnted (Aug 23, 2013)

Yeah, I agree steve.
Guess you are a fan of Albinos too ?


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## nintendont (Aug 23, 2013)

nintendont said:


> Orange Pepper= RPM= Jag





Peterwookie said:


> = so what's your point





Variety said:


> Please do not take this the wrong way but if its derived from a jag does this mean they're prone to neoro problems ?


= Orange Pepper is just as prone to neuro as any other jag.


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## andynic07 (Aug 23, 2013)

nintendont said:


> = Orange Pepper is just as prone to neuro as any other jag.



What percentage of jags have you seen develop neuro issues and from a scale of 1 to 10 what would be the average of the affected snakes?


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## Variety (Aug 23, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I bet if someone posted something about about a snake that was housed next to a jag the questions about neuro would come up.



I knew this question would but cause an argument but i was just curious, i love jags


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## andynic07 (Aug 23, 2013)

Variety said:


> I knew this question would but cause an argument but i was just curious, i love jags



I love the look of them too but have not made my mind up whether the neuro issues are blown out of proportion or not. The jag breeders say it is a small percentage and minor issues but have a reason to say that and the jag haters say the neuro issues are in the high percentages and are major effects but they probably have not had a lot to do with jags since they hate them.


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## Dmnted (Aug 23, 2013)

Everyone knows Jags have a "stigma" attached to them.
I think you are right andy that most keepers against Jags have not had direct experience with them.
I love the look of them and I did have my concerns prior to purchasing for what I consider a substancial amount of money.
After speaking with numerous Jag breeders I decided to go ahead.
All I can say is the ones I own are as normal and happy as the other 40 snakes in my collection.
I have seen and heard of extreme cases but thats not my personal experience so thats all I am able to contribute.
Lets face it that Jags are here and here to stay.
Many long term Jag breeders I know have confirmed my direct experience so It's up to each individual to make their own choices


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## Ships (Aug 23, 2013)

The biggest issue to my mind of the whole jag debate is that in every jag clutch half the animals are not jags; ie normal looking cross bred animals. It is these animals, sibs, that have the potential to muddy the waters if they are passed off as pure line bred animals.


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## Dmnted (Aug 24, 2013)

Thats a fair call Ships!
As you know Jag is Co-dom and nero is "associated" with the jag gene so, neuro is not an issue with sibs in terms of "muddying" even when you take into account the severity or lack there of.
Any Jag breeder should disclose that the other half of the clutch are Jag sibs, hence not pure with the exception of a pure coastal Jag from the original mutation and no cross breeding which would be hard to confirm.
We all wish for a perfect world with....for some reason I am thinking of g-stings...not to do with snakes of course because that would be just weird!
Thats the second time I have mentioned that tonight but not on this forum.....:shock:


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## congo_python (Aug 24, 2013)

OP is a Hypo Jag and all Jags are a cross of some % none of them are pure....not even any of the coastal Jags in Oz.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 24, 2013)

There is a lot of confusion on this topic, hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion.........

Orange Peppers are not hypo jags.

Orange Peppers are CARAMEL JAGS, Orange Pepper (OP) is just a label SXR put on them.

HYPO'S and CARAMELS are very different. CARAMELS are co-dom. Hypos are polygenic. Although they do look similar, they are very different.

Also CARAMELS originated in pure standard coastals and do not have any potential of carrying neuro. Only the JAG gene has the potential to throw neuro.

When a CARAMEL is mixed with a JAG the result is you can produce a percentage of CARAMEL JAGs or OPs.

Here is a pic of a CARAMEL COASTAL (not jag) as you can see very different to a HYPO COASTAL.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 24, 2013)

all jags carry and will show neuro symptoms sooner or later, no matter what the breeders will tell you, its part of the gene. In most cases it takes a few months or even years to show its ugly head, so that breeders can sell off their animals before it develops.


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## saximus (Aug 24, 2013)

Barramundi this is from Designer Serpents website:
"The Caramel Coastal carpet pythons are a form of Hypomelanistic snake.
These pythons follow a co – dominant mode of inheritance."

I know it's different to something like bredli but it's not completely wrong to describe it as hypo is it?


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## champagne (Aug 24, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> all jags carry and will show neuro symptoms sooner or later, no matter what the breeders will tell you, its part of the gene. In most cases it takes a few months or even years to show its ugly head, so that breeders can sell off their animals before it develops.


Yes all jags have neuro problems, it's connected with the genes that reduce pattern and can't be bred out but Most jag neuro symptoms are so small that they go unnoticed. Less then 5% of jags have a server neuro issues which are very noticeable at birth and most are culled but they defiantly don't all cork screw and you won't wake up one day and have a snake cork screwing all over its enclosure unable to feed itself, like some people would lead you to believe



saximus said:


> Barramundi this is from Designer Serpents website:
> "The Caramel Coastal carpet pythons are a form of Hypomelanistic snake.
> These pythons follow a co – dominant mode of inheritance."
> 
> I know it's different to something like bredli but it's not completely wrong to describe it as hypo is it?


I think Ben knows what he is talking about when it comes to op jags, having produced some of the best in Australia.... The thing he was saying is a caramel is co Dom and yes they are "hypo" (reduced black) but they often get confused with hypo coastals like robs which aren't co Dom they are polymorphic like hypo Bredli and designer serpent has also crossed robs hypos with Simons caramel, which has produced some stunning results


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## TrueBlue (Aug 24, 2013)

btsmorphs, I dont know where you get your info from but designer serpents have NOT crossed my hypos with caramels because they dont have any of my line of hypos.


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## SamNabz (Aug 24, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> Less then 5% of jags have a server neuro issues which are very noticeable at birth and most are culled but they defiantly don't all cork screw and you won't wake up one day and have a snake cork screwing all over its enclosure unable to feed itself, like some people would lead you to believe



Less than 5%? Lmfao. I'd love to know where you got this figure from, mate. Did you conduct some research? If so, please enlighten us on how you came up with this figure and what sort of testing was conducted. Some of your great and extremely accurate research papers would be great also.

I look forward to your detailed response.

Cheers, Sam


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## champagne (Aug 24, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> btsmorphs, I dont know where you get your info from but designer serpents have NOT crossed my hypos with caramels because they dont have any of my line of hypos.


Best mate brought a hypo pair from them that is from your line.


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## champagne (Aug 24, 2013)

SamNabz said:


> Less than 5%? Lmfao. I'd love to know where you got this figure from, mate. Did you conduct some research? If so, please enlighten us on how you came up with this figure and what sort of testing was conducted. Some of your great and extremely accurate research papers would be great also.
> 
> I look forward to your detailed response.
> 
> Cheers, Sam



talk the morph breeders that have worked with large number of jags.... Yes less then 5% of jags have major neuro problems and have to be culled... This is purely my opinion based on my experiences from what I have seen first hand. If I'm wrong in your experience what is the % that have major problems? Facts not fiction...


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## andynic07 (Aug 24, 2013)

The problem that we have is the two sides are so polarised that a common ground cannot be reached where objective research can be carried out over a large number for the lifetime of the group being tested.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 24, 2013)

I know one of the first jag breeders ended up getting out of them because he didn't like what he was seeing.


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## champagne (Aug 24, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> I know one of the first jag breeders ended up getting out of them because he didn't like what he was seeing.


And that is the reason I won't own or breed jags, what I have seen the number of that cork screw are low but it is quiet distressing seeing a hatchling that can't control it's own movements and knowing that you caused it.... I couldn't handle that


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## Ramsayi (Aug 24, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> And that is the reason I won't own or breed jags, what I have seen the number of that cork screw are low but it is quiet distressing seeing a hatchling that can't control it's own movements and knowing that you caused it.... I couldn't handle that




And that is what gets me about the whole jag issue.Anyone who claims to have a love of reptiles cannot justify breeding jags no matter what some look like.It is all down to the dollar.The people who buy them do nothing but allow the problem to exist as well.


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## thomasssss (Aug 24, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> And that is what gets me about the whole jag issue.Anyone who claims to have a love of reptiles cannot justify breeding jags no matter what some look like.It is all down to the dollar.The people who buy them do nothing but allow the problem to exist as well.


my god im a terrible person who clearly cannot have a real fascination/love for reptiles because i bought a jag despite the fact that i have other everyday wild type reps that i value just as much , .... but no i clearly do not care for them at all now i own a jag


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## Ramsayi (Aug 24, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> my god im a terrible person who clearly cannot have a real fascination/love for reptiles because i bought a jag despite the fact that i have other everyday wild type reps that i value just as much , .... but no i clearly do not care for them at all now i own a jag



Did you care that others in the clutch may have had to be euthed because of neuro issues? I guess as long as the one you got seems ok then that is all that matters eh? :facepalm: Or is ignorance is bliss?


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## No-two (Aug 24, 2013)

Admitting it is the first step...

Jag breeders always trying to talk down the neuro only seems to happen in Australia.


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## champagne (Aug 24, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> my god im a terrible person who clearly cannot have a real fascination/love for reptiles because i bought a jag despite the fact that i have other everyday wild type reps that i value just as much , .... but no i clearly do not care for them at all now i own a jag


Even tho the numbers are low when you see a perfect little hatchling cork screwing out of control unable to hold its head up straight it is very distressing and when you do see that in person for the first time I think you would change your opinion on the matter... In saying that some of the jags getting around are gorgeous and if other snakes didn't have to suffer to get those ones, I would happily own some.


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## SamNabz (Aug 24, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> talk the morph breeders that have worked with large number of jags.... Yes less then 5% of jags have major neuro problems and have to be culled... This is purely my opinion based on my experiences from what I have seen first hand. If I'm wrong in your experience what is the % that have major problems? Facts not fiction...



I never gave any sort of figure, or pretended to know what percentage of ALL jags in Australia show signs of neuro, so I have absolutely no reason to provide an answer in that sense. You, on the other hand, did. However, thanks for your very detailed response. I now fully understand where you got that figure from. Well done!

P.s that was sarcasm... In case you didn't realise.

Cheers, Sam


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## Ramsayi (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't think anyone except the breeders would really know what % are affected.I also think that the numbers with problems would tend to be understated as well.


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 24, 2013)

And to think, all this could have been avoided if these animals were not illegally bought into this country in the first place. With greed so prevalent within the hobby we only have ourselves to blame for the mess that exists today. Neuro issues with these animals really is only the tip of the iceberg when you consider the irreparable damage caused to the future of the hobby in this country by them simply being here at all. There existence and continued divisions they cause both inside and out of the hobby is and will be like a cancer. Greed is a terrible thing, and it's not surprising so much damage has come from it. 

Wing_Nut


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## TrueBlue (Aug 24, 2013)

btsmorphs, Well your best mate got ripped off and told porkies then didnt he. Because the animals that he brought were not from the line of hypos that Im breeding.


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## champagne (Aug 24, 2013)

Well he went back to the breeder that designer brought them off and confirmed that the snakes originally came from you, copy of the movement advice was shown with your name on it. When you are paying over a $1000 per snake for a poly morph you check things out and get proof of what you are buying.


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## mungus (Aug 24, 2013)

Cant go by a movement advise on things mate.
Someone can buy a pair of jungles from me in qld and have a movement advise.
Then he sells another pair of jungles to a bloke in Vic. and tells him i bred them and shows him the movement advise...........
But he kept my 2 and passed on someone elses pair which he bred or bought locally.
Now im not saying this happened to your mate etc !!!!!
Just putting a different view for you on things that can and do happen at times.................


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## champagne (Aug 24, 2013)

Yeah when they are both well known breeders you tend to be a little more trusting but yes you are right some people can be quiet dodge


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## andynic07 (Aug 24, 2013)

mungus said:


> Cant go by a movement advise on things mate.
> Someone can buy a pair of jungles from me in qld and have a movement advise.
> Then he sells another pair of jungles to a bloke in Vic. and tells him i bred them and shows him the movement advise...........
> But he kept my 2 and passed on someone elses pair which he bred or bought locally.
> ...



I think it is stuff like this that would ruin the hobby rather than people breeding jags.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 24, 2013)

btsmorphs.
Well they are wrong. The only pair of snakes that it could possibly be is a pair that i sold to someone years ago from a line that i dont even use any more as they never turned out very good. So Im sorry but once again they dont not have hypos from my line that I breed from.


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## cement (Aug 24, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> Yeah when they are both well known breeders you tend to be a little more trusting but yes you are right some people can be quiet dodge



This is the problem with the "hobby", there are really only a couple of "well known breeders" that I actually trust, many are very dodgy yet they maintain a squeaky clean image to the "hobbyists". 
It was to my surprise to learn months ago what Ramsayi said earlier, about one of the early jag breeders, all I can say is good for you son, there is hope for all. Word gets around.


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## The_Geeza (Aug 25, 2013)

People r blind to think Australia is any different from Europe or the US... Seriously peeps these arguments r better done through PM's


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## caliherp (Aug 25, 2013)

MidsReps said:


> People r blind to think Australia is any different from Europe or the US... Seriously peeps these arguments r better done through PM's



Im sorry but I STRONGLY disagree. You guys still have hope. Because of your strict laws you guys are behind the U.S and Europe.(in a good way IMO) You guys are headed in our direction, but you are not as deep as we are into reptiles.(again I'm not saying this in a bad way) The morph game for instance, we are ahead of most because of many reasons, the main being lack of genetic decertify in our blood lines. Another reason is our access to wild stock. That's just my 0.2.

kindest regards, Patrick


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 25, 2013)

I know I've come into the discussion late and this has already been answered I guess, but OPs are pure Coastals. Pure Coastal reduced pattern crossed with a pure Coastal caramel. There are OP Jags out there but they aren't the *original* OPs that Southern Cross Reptiles produced, they were made by others.


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## cement (Aug 25, 2013)

cement said:


> It was to my surprise to learn months ago what Ramsayi said earlier, about one of the early jag breeders, all I can say is good for you son, there is hope for all. Word gets around.



I retract this statement, as more fact come to light.


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## chimerapro (Aug 25, 2013)

I've heard/read that SxR caramels are from a jungleXtrue blue hypo from a Qld breeder (Simon ???) then bred into jags to get an orange pepper. My understanding of orange pepper is it is a super caramel jag. Also making me think that most orange pepper sibs should not be called coastal anything as with jag and caramel genes the pool is muddied so the tag of pure coastal orange pepper jag and pure caramel coastal are false in most cases. Credit to some pure line breeders True Blue, Rogers Reptiles, Larks, Designer serpents and others that have heritage info on their hypo/caramels that aren't tainted by jag blood or the jungleXhypo Coastals.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 25, 2013)

cement said:


> I retract this statement, as more fact come to light.



I was told this directly from that breeder.Would be most disappointed if it was just BS.


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## saximus (Aug 25, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> I know I've come into the discussion late and this has already been answered I guess, but OPs are pure Coastals. Pure Coastal reduced pattern crossed with a pure Coastal caramel. There are OP Jags out there but they aren't the *original* OPs that Southern Cross Reptiles produced, they were made by others.



If you have a look at the quote I posted from SXR, he says himself that it's from an RPM. RPM = Jag


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 25, 2013)

Sax' I went and looked on both sites, the old one when owned by Simon and Diane and the new one thats run by Melissa and Steve, where does it say this? I remember having an extensive talk to Diane when I got my first caramel a fair while back, about how the OP was made and she said RP more than a few times, RPM was never mentioned.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 25, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> Sax' I went and looked on both sites, the old one when owned by Simon and Diane and the new one thats run by Melissa and Steve, where does it say this? I remember having an extensive talk to Diane when I got my first caramel a fair while back, about how the Op was made and she said RP more than a few times, rpm was never mentioned



6th entry down the page


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 25, 2013)

chimerapro said:


> I've heard/read that SxR caramels are from a jungleXtrue blue hypo from a Qld breeder (Simon ???) then bred into jags to get an orange pepper. My understanding of orange pepper is it is a super caramel jag. Also making me think that most orange pepper sibs should not be called coastal anything as with jag and caramel genes the pool is muddied so the tag of pure coastal orange pepper jag and pure caramel coastal are false in most cases. Credit to some pure line breeders True Blue, Rogers Reptiles, Larks, Designer serpents and others that have heritage info on their hypo/caramels that aren't tainted by jag blood or the jungleXhypo Coastals.


hypomelanism and reduced patterns are two different genes, while the jaguar gene as another completely different morph


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## zulu (Aug 25, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> 6th entry down the page



Its interesting to look at that site, the jungles are to kill for they look amazing ,the RPM albino carpets are not much to look at compared to their albino darwins.
The rpms in general are not as good looking as the jungles.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 25, 2013)

chimerapro,- Hahaha, I wouldnt belive what you hear/read as it is a whole lot of hogwash.
Simon tried a few times to get hypos off me years ago but it never happened.
No one in nth qld have any of my hypos especially back then when these caramels were invented. It is actually impossible for them to have had any breeding adults to cross over a jungle and then rasie and breed, lol, impossible..


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## chimerapro (Aug 25, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> chimerapro,- Hahaha, I wouldnt belive what you hear/read as it is a whole lot of hogwash.
> Simon tried a few times to get hypos off me years ago but it never happened.
> No one in nth qld have any of my hypos especially back then when these caramels were invented. It is actually impossible for them to have had any breeding adults to cross over a jungle and then rasie and breed, lol, impossible..


Thanks Rob. I'm guessing you've heard that story too then lol


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## TrueBlue (Aug 25, 2013)

Hahaha, actually no not that one, thats a new one,lol.
I dunno what its all about, people keep saying they have hypos from my line when clearly they do not, hell they are only snakes for godsake whats all the porkies and rubbish about. Starting to get a bit ridiculous, is all it does is make them look silly and fraudulant, if they all have my line of hypos where are they all, (pics), and why arnt they producing the same sort of hypos.?????


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## AmazingMorelia (Aug 25, 2013)

Your right Rob, the story about the Caramels coming from Hypo from you crossed with a Jungle is plain out wrong. It amazes me that so many people who think they know a thing or two about Carpets think that crossing a polygenic hypo with a jungle is somehow going to give you a co-dominate morph that has a super form.



btsmorphs said:


> Yes all jags have neuro problems, it's connected with the genes that reduce pattern and can't be bred out.


Neuro is associated with the JAG gene, and not all genes that reduce an animals pattern.


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## champagne (Aug 27, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> Your right Rob, the story about the Caramels coming from Hypo from you crossed with a Jungle is plain out wrong. It amazes me that so many people who think they know a thing or two about Carpets think that crossing a polygenic hypo with a jungle is somehow going to give you a co-dominate morph that has a super form.
> 
> 
> Neuro is associated with the JAG gene, and not all genes that reduce an animals pattern.



Simons caramels are from a hypo coastal not robs line breed to a hypo look jungle and from this pairing produced a caramel looking babies that turned out to be co Dom. Simon defiantly didn't have any of robs line he tried serval times to get some when he first started his rpm projects and yes I wasn't saying that all rp snakes carry neuro problems. What I was trying to say is the neuro problems in the jags is connected to the genes that reduce the pattern and can not be bred out.


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## pythons unleashed (Aug 27, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Hahaha, actually no not that one, thats a new one,lol.
> I dunno what its all about, people keep saying they have hypos from my line when clearly they do not, hell they are only snakes for godsake whats all the porkies and rubbish about. Starting to get a bit ridiculous, is all it does is make them look silly and fraudulant, if they all have my line of hypos where are they all, (pics), and why arnt they producing the same sort of hypos.?????



Rob so true you nailed it right on the head. ("hell they are only snakes for godsake.") really when it comes to morphs who cares where the breeder got the parents from and what line they are, their morphs. As long as the animals are health and have not physical deformities likes kinks whats the problem their morphs not pure lines.
What I'm tring to say is why does every morph have to come from a pure line if every morph was pure coastal or jungle etc I'd just give up breeding and let Rob and Larks and all the other pure line breeders that developed this lines do what their doing and sit back a watch and see where this hobby goes. If their where only the few breeders and no one else got in to it there wouldn't be much demand on this lines and the hobby would just sit stagnant and the future of herp keeping in Australia would die.
But while there is morph breeding and pure line breeding going on it gives hope for small breeders to work on their own lines on morphs.


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## Colin (Aug 28, 2013)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> There is a lot of confusion on this topic, hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion.........
> 
> Orange Peppers are not hypo jags.
> 
> ...



Hi Barra, please dont take this the wrong way and this post is definitely not meant to have a go at you or anything you have said. Im just adding this to hopefully help clear up some confusion.

From what I was told several years ago (may be right or wrong) the original caramel carpets that the SXR caramel line came from were bred in SA by Mark Sim and were a combination of a cross between a jungle python and a what was thought to be a super hypo coastal (from the trueblue hypo line. whoever owned this snake before mark sim Im unsure) and Ive even seen the pictures of the original caramels mark sim produced. From my understanding these caramels (jungle x coastal crossess) went to SXR and bred to (RPM) jags which resulted in the jags called orange peppers. So from this information it seems the OP originated from a jungle x coastal then x jag. Ive spoken to wayne larks about this and he also believed the above to be true and wayne being a good friend of mark sim who would know the truth, it seemed to validate the story. 

There are other lines of caramels here that I believe came from pure coastals and also a line thats rumoured to come from o/s lines. But as far as I know the original SXR OP were progeny of a (RPM) jag x (jungle x hypo coastal) and not from pure coastals. 

Im just putting this up not to create some drama or argument and only because I feel that all morphs pure and crosses should be labeled correctly as to what they are and originally derived from. That was and still is one of the problems the anti jag people have and I can respect that. I keep and breed both morphs including jags as well as pure line animals. I think its every morph breeders responsibility to label animals truthfully and consistantly otherwise the prediction that the lines here will become muddied beyond repair will happen. I personally don't have a problem with most carpet crosses and some are fantastic looking animals in their own right. But still believe that all crosses should be labeled correctly or at least indicated that there has been a cross somewhere in its background. 

As Ive said that was the story I heard and saw the pics of the original caramel clutch mark sim produced and may even still have those pics somewhere. whether its true or whether the coastal hypo used came from Rob's line ( hand's down the best hypo line in the country) I'm not sure and not trying to argue these points. Just repeating what I was told by several very well known breeders several years ago. But caramels seem to have so many stories going around about them it would be good to know the truth. Cheers


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## champagne (Aug 28, 2013)

Colin said:


> Hi Barra, please dont take this the wrong way and this post is definitely not meant to have a go at you or anything you have said. Im just adding this to hopefully help clear up some confusion.
> 
> From what I was told several years ago (may be right or wrong) the original caramel carpets that the SXR caramel line came from were bred in SA by Mark Sim and were a combination of a cross between a jungle python and a what was thought to be a super hypo coastal (from the trueblue hypo line. whoever owned this snake before mark sim Im unsure) and Ive even seen the pictures of the original caramels mark sim produced. From my understanding these caramels (jungle x coastal crossess) went to SXR and bred to (RPM) jags which resulted in the jags called orange peppers. So from this information it seems the OP originated from a jungle x coastal then x jag. Ive spoken to wayne larks about this and he also believed the above to be true and wayne being a good friend of mark sim who would know the truth, it seemed to validate the story.
> 
> ...


 Speaking with Simon he has said that the hypo used was not from robs line and he tried on several occasions to get some of robs hypos for the rpm with no success. In saying that anyone who has spoken to Simon knows he can be vague with details at times.


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## Colin (Aug 28, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> Speaking with Simon he has said that the hypo used was not from robs line and he tried on several occasions to get some of robs hypos for the rpm with no success. In saying that anyone who has spoken to Simon knows he can be vague with details at times.



that could very well be true and Im only repeating the story I was told by several people who heard it from mark sim, that the original SXR caramel line was bred by him and consisted of a jungle crossed hypo coastal (from whoever's line) that was the main point I was trying to make. that is, that line of caramels didnt originate from pure coastals from the start. whoever's line the hypo was is a minor detail and the point I was trying to make was this caramel line was not a pure coastal morph. But there may be other caramel lines around that did come from pure coastals, but I'm unsure of the facts on that.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone, argue the point or prove anyone wrong. I'm just trying to show some inconsistencies that I've heard about the line being pure or not. I have nothing against a cross carpet and keep a few of them myself. But I think labeling what an animal is important, and if it has a cross in its line then it should be stated so potential buyers are at least aware of it. I feel if they are a cross as I believe they are, then they should be labeled as such and not called pure. that's all I'm saying and I'm not trying to start arguments over this. If people want to believe these caramels are pure coastal then good luck to them and I really don't care one way or the other. I keep mainly pure carpets in my collection but also keep some crosses and morphs so don't have any vested interests in this situation either way. 
Cheers


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## Perko (Aug 28, 2013)

Coastal's x Jungle's do seem to turn out like some "caramels" i bred some a few years ago, i then bred one of the male hatchies back to the Coastal dam, the hatchies from that pairing turned out nice and look like caramels, but they are 75% Coastal 25% jungle.
I sold the hatchies and parents to Damien Hyde of Reptile Connexion.
Here's some pics of the hatchies and grand sire and dam.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 28, 2013)

pythons unleashed,- I think you missed the point completely. if what btsmorhps is saying is correct then a number of people are doing their research to find certain lines and paying good money for them only to be ripped off. You dont find this dodgy and unethical??. Hell i only sell my hypos for $500ea and they are the real deal, they actually do come from my line. Not over a grand each for something that is not what it is supposed to be and from a completely different line, if thats what btsmorphs best mate paid?. Id be totally peed off if i paid good money for something that was not what i paid for.

I sold Mark Sims a hatchling 1st gen pair of hypos, [not super hypos, what ever they are?], years ago from the line that i no longer use. If i remeber correctly one of them died before he bred them, maybe thats why he put it over a jungle if this is true. When bred together this bloodline of hypos kept producing animals that were way to patterned for my liking this is why this bloodline got dropped from the breeding program.


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## pythons unleashed (Aug 28, 2013)

I did miss the point Rob sorry. Should have read all of the post first my bad. 
I do agree their is too many dodgy breeders and they all know who they are. Sell it for what it is!!!!!!!!!!! I know first hand what it's like to hand of the cash for a great opportunity to only raise it them for 3 years to hatch not what they were to be great waste of time and hard earned money. 
I was trying to say that yes be carefully a what your purchasing and if it's too good to be true it normally isn't. Use a trusted breeder and what I'm say in the breeder just doesn't have to know the whole history of their parents but at least sell it for what it is. Their is no reason for this mistake any more you can check up on every breeder, just look at what they sell!!!!!!!!
I sell every thing for what it is jag sib, coastal cross you can find all this info on me anywhere, my web page facebook even get in touch with my clients. it is as it is.

Sorry I know I could a little of track dodgy breeders just sit me bad.


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## No-two (Aug 28, 2013)

Wasn't there someone selling het leucistic maccies a few years ago? Still haven't seen any white's procuded.


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## champagne (Aug 28, 2013)

No-two said:


> Wasn't there someone selling het leucistic maccies a few years ago? Still haven't seen any white's procuded.


Apparently the 2 pairs I know of weren't up to a good size and didn't produce a fertile clutch fingers crossed for this season.


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## larks (Aug 28, 2013)

Good post Colin, finally someone with some facts.
I personally followed these breedings very closely ever since Mark received the pair of hypos from Rob. The male did appear to be a super to Mark and myself. He bred the hypo coastal male to a female jag from Simon ( I do have pictures of both parents but want be sharing them without permission) the female produced a full clutch of hypos. Half of the clutch where jags and they ended up being named orange peppers by Simon who also called them caramels. In that same year Mark also bred the hypo male to a jungle out of curiosity, that clutch also produced a full clutch of hypos that had a caramel look to them. So this led us to believe that the hypo was indeed a super hypo and a co-dominant morph and it still breeds true to co-dominant to this day. 

I believe those 2 clutch where the only 2 that male ever produced.


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## larks (Aug 28, 2013)

Should has said this line still breeds true to co-dominant as I don't think the male ever bred again.


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## champagne (Aug 28, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> pythons unleashed,- I think you missed the point completely. if what btsmorhps is saying is correct then a number of people are doing their research to find certain lines and paying good money for them only to be ripped off. You dont find this dodgy and unethical??. Hell i only sell my hypos for $500ea and they are the real deal, they actually do come from my line. Not over a grand each for something that is not what it is supposed to be and from a completely different line, if thats what btsmorphs best mate paid?. Id be totally peed off if i paid good money for something that was not what i paid for.
> 
> I sold Mark Sims a hatchling 1st gen pair of hypos, [not super hypos, what ever they are?], years ago from the line that i no longer use. If i remeber correctly one of them died before he bred them, maybe thats why he put it over a jungle if this is true. When bred together this bloodline of hypos kept producing animals that were way to patterned for my liking this is why this bloodline got dropped from the breeding program.



did you drop the whole line? have you done any out crossing with your current line to see if it is co dom?


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## Colin (Aug 28, 2013)

Good to hear the facts that actually occured with these OP jags and caramels wayne. Apologies for my confusion with some of the details though.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 28, 2013)

btsmorphs,- 
I still have animals from that line, i just dont use it in the mix anymore as every time i do more patterned animals tend to appear.
The 2 young i sent to Mark were from a hypo,( the line i dont use anymore) and a hypoish animal that was all i had at the time. Over the next 2 seasons i tracked down 2 more hypos that produced far better results and kept line breeding them untill i have what i have today.


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## gozz (Aug 28, 2013)

Wheres mine Roberto..? Lol


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## cement (Aug 28, 2013)

Colin said:


> Im just putting this up not to create some drama or argument and only because I feel that all morphs pure and crosses should be labeled correctly as to what they are and originally derived from. That was and still is one of the problems the anti jag people have and I can respect that. I keep and breed both morphs including jags as well as pure line animals. I think its every morph breeders responsibility to label animals truthfully and consistantly otherwise the prediction that the lines here will become muddied beyond repair will happen.



This thread is a good indication that if the horse hasn't already bolted, it's heading out the gate at a run


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## champagne (Aug 29, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> btsmorphs,-
> I still have animals from that line, i just dont use it in the mix anymore as every time i do more patterned animals tend to appear.
> The 2 young i sent to Mark were from a hypo,( the line i dont use anymore) and a hypoish animal that was all i had at the time. Over the next 2 seasons i tracked down 2 more hypos that produced far better results and kept line breeding them untill i have what i have today.


 have you proven the animals you have being co dom or poly? would be nice if there were a hypo that was co dom but pure


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## TrueBlue (Aug 29, 2013)

There seems to be both in the mix. The bloodline that i sent to Mark is still in the mix but as said every time i breed back over that bloodline i get too much pattern in the young, so i concentrate more on the other 2 bloodlines for far better results. The hypos i now produce are 3rd gen from these animals..
I thought that a super if thats what you want to call them are from a mating from 2 first gen hypos.?


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## champagne (Aug 29, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> There seems to be both in the mix. The bloodline that i sent to Mark is still in the mix but as said every time i breed back over that bloodline i get too much pattern in the young, so i concentrate more on the other 2 bloodlines for far better results. The hypos i now produce are 3rd gen from these animals..
> I thought that a super if thats what you want to call them are from a mating from 2 first gen hypos.?


when you breed 2 co dom hypos together you get 50% hypo, 25% normal and 25% super hypos. A super form when bred to a unrelated wild type will produce a whole clutch of hypos. if you are getting whole clutches of hypos? id say there is a fair chance they have a simple mode of inheritance not just polymorphic because even when you breed to hypo bredli together you can still get classic forms that don't produce hypos.


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## AmazingMorelia (Aug 29, 2013)

cement said:


> This thread is a good indication that if the horse hasn't already bolted, it's heading out the gate at a run



Its already done and dusted. What I am seeing evolve is a division in the hobby where people are seen as purists and hybridisers (is that even a word?). The people who keep pure animals (within the sub species) are only buying from other purists and avoiding the others.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 29, 2013)

btsmorhps, I get 100% hypos in the clutch. Thats breeding two 2nd gen hypos together. 
All the young are high quality. So what do that make these? Super duppa hypos lol.

Amazingmorelia.
I know of a number of people that feel exactly the same way. They wont buy animals off or deal with anyone that keeps jags even if they also keep pure stuff. There will always be that question mark over the animals even if they are pure.
Yes i agree that pure, especially pure local lines will command the best prices in years to come, and not that many as its already starting to happen.


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## Jungle_Freak (Aug 29, 2013)

Getting 100% hypos would mean one or both parents are super hypos..


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## TrueBlue (Aug 29, 2013)

By the looks of things most of these young are going to be far better quality than the parents, will be a long wait to raise these and see what pops out when they are bred together.
To me being 100% pure makes them so much more special, oh of course silly me, being 100% pure Australian also makes them more special.


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## champagne (Aug 29, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> By the looks of things most of these young are going to be far better quality than the parents, will be a long wait to raise these and see what pops out when they are bred together.
> To me being 100% pure makes them so much more special.



by the sound of it your hypos are co dom and the reason you are only getting high quality hypos is because both parents are super form meaning all babies are also super form.


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## cement (Sep 2, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Amazingmorelia.
> I know of a number of people that feel exactly the same way. They wont buy animals off or deal with anyone that keeps jags even if they also keep pure stuff. There will always be that question mark over the animals even if they are pure.
> Yes i agree that pure, especially pure local lines will command the best prices in years to come, and not that many as its already starting to happen.



Amen to that. 
I am a happy purist, and know that what I keep is 100%. 
There are some very long yards been done by these people with projects that take many years to acheive. The worst thing is that when they do acheive their goals they are branded as breeding jag blood..... not so, we seem underground now as the jag scene does its thing, but it is only natural that those keeping and breeding pure lines, are of course a patient bunch, and like True blue mentions, the price for pure will go up, and buyers will have to be careful who they buy from.
This isn't a dig at the jaggers, as mentioned before yep your here to stay. It won't bother us.


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## thomasssss (Sep 3, 2013)

cement said:


> This isn't a dig at the jaggers, as mentioned before yep your here to stay. *It won't bother us *



whilst it may not bother you personally , it clearly does still bother plenty of people and they are vocal about it


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## cement (Sep 4, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> whilst it may not bother you personally , it clearly does still bother plenty of people and they are vocal about it



Good!


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## chimerapro (Sep 18, 2013)

pythons unleashed said:


> I did miss the point Rob sorry.
> I was trying to say that yes be carefully a what your purchasing Use a trusted breeder and what I'm say in the breeder just doesn't have to know the whole history of their parents but at least sell it for what it is. Their is no reason for this mistake any more you can check up on every breeder, just look at what they sell!!!!!!!!
> I sell every thing for what it is jag sib, coastal cross you can find all this info on me anywhere, my web page facebook even get in touch with my clients. it is as it is.
> Sorry I know I could a little of track dodgy breeders just sit me bad.



Contradicting much mate? Aren't you currently selling "PURE" coastal jags at the moment that in this country is impossible plain and simple! Why would you mislabel an animal like this when your above comments state you don't mislabel?


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## champagne (Sep 18, 2013)

chimerapro said:


> Contradicting much mate? Aren't you currently selling "PURE" coastal jags at the moment that in this country is impossible plain and simple! Why would you mislabel an animal like this when your above comments state you don't mislabel?



''impossible plain and simple'' you are very sure of yourself but do you have any proof to back your statement up? there are pure coastal jags in Australia, so sorry but you are wrong... the line simon got his hands on weren't the only line brought in.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 18, 2013)

There is no such thing as a pure coastal jag and there never has been.
Do some research and you will find that the original jags were produced from an IJ carpet.


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## champagne (Sep 18, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> There is no such thing as a pure coastal jag and there never has been.
> Do some research and you will find that the original jags were produced from an IJ carpet.



unfortunately there is no way to prove what the original jags come from and the stories are all hearsay... but the story goes that they were pure coastal pairing and there are people who have only crossed these originals back to pure coastals which is the lines that people are referring to when they say pure coastal jags and these lines are in Australia.


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## Wild~Touch (Sep 18, 2013)

pure coastal jag, ie, 

"Made in Australia from local and imported products" .....just like the label on the jar says when in the supermarket looking for some good ol' pure Aussie products


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## Vixen (Sep 18, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> unfortunately there is no way to prove what the original jags come from and the stories are all hearsay... but the story goes that they were pure coastal pairing and there are people who have only crossed these originals back to pure coastals which is the lines that people are referring to when they say pure coastal jags and these lines are in Australia.



And how on Earth do you know this, only those individuals that have imported these Jags would know which bloodlines they came from and even then it's all heresay and rumors if they are pure Coastal or not. Jags are a mess and I really don't see how anyone can still label them are 'pure' in my eyes.


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## The_Geeza (Sep 18, 2013)

BASICS........Morph breeders are going to continue there work to produce snakes that look great for the reptile/pet industry......Purists need to give um a break and a JAG was not man made!...but breeding lines of pures I admire greatly (I own some fantastic Wheeties and Darwins)...BUT I also got a Jag as a family member so that I could study and make my own decisions about them!...does this make me a bad person???....hey peeps lets just calm this down hey....we all friends on here after all....and if the people that know me think im a bad person for owning a Jag then so be it as you also are not the people I know.......Friends everyone8)


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## Vixen (Sep 18, 2013)

If this is aimed at me I apologise if I seemed upfront, no offence intended to any keepers. 

My point was that noone even knows for sure if Jags were the result of a Coastal to Coastal breeding or not. Even if they were, how can breeders in Australia know if their lines are 'pure' or not unless they had direct information given to them from the smugglers about their origins?


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## The_Geeza (Sep 18, 2013)

Vixen said:


> If this is aimed at me I apologise if I seemed upfront, no offence intended to any keepers.
> 
> My point was that noone even knows for sure if Jags were the result of a Coastal to Coastal breeding or not. Even if they were, how can breeders in Australia know if their lines are 'pure' or not unless they had direct information given to them from the smugglers about their origins?


As u r fully aware there is the original write up about the First ever jags then crossed back etc...not got the link at hand but was posted on here somewhere...very interesting reading....Vix any jags (and u r correct) that entered this country I very much doubt would have been pure Coastal....But I would say they were prob as close as u could have got ... say 88%....but as u r fully aware also that percentages r only as close as u can get and in no way accurate....fortunate or not they r here to stay...I regularly post on a UK site (cause im a pommy lol) and there crossing of Morelia would blow you away.......Guna happen here eventually (sry already has) and we just have to get used to it......but on the other side of the coin yourself and others are keeping the other pure part going strong with some amazing inline bred snakes.....Keep the good work up............Ps vix im hoping that little wheety of mine guna drop next week but not 100% sure (always next yr)...she either fat or couple little eggs in there Ha ha.......Ozimid


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## andynic07 (Sep 18, 2013)

MidsReps said:


> As u r fully aware there is the original write up about the First ever jags then crossed back etc...not got the link at hand but was posted on here somewhere...very interesting reading....Vix any jags (and u r correct) that entered this country I very much doubt would have been pure Coastal....But I would say they were prob as close as u could have got ... say 88%....but as u r fully aware also that percentages r only as close as u can get and in no way accurate....fortunate or not they r here to stay...I regularly post on a UK site (cause im a pommy lol) and there crossing of Morelia would blow you away.......Guna happen here eventually (sry already has) and we just have to get used to it......but on the other side of the coin yourself and others are keeping the other pure part going strong with some amazing inline bred snakes.....Keep the good work up............Ps vix im hoping that little wheety of mine guna drop next week but not 100% sure (always next yr)...she either fat or couple little eggs in there Ha ha.......Ozimid


Is the user name change part of a forum make over? You used to get suspended a lot and now you are trying to calm people down.lol.


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## saximus (Sep 18, 2013)

In the case of Jags that come from the originally imported line and have only ever been bred with Coastals, I can sort of understand the use of the word "pure". If people understand and acknowledge that the founder animals may or may not have been pure Coastal, it makes sense as a sort of short-hand description. Perhaps a consensus needs to be made for a better term instead though?


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## The_Geeza (Sep 18, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Is the user name change part of a forum make over? You used to get suspended a lot and now you are trying to calm people down.lol.


Yes twice cause I pretended to be a purist (and I was usually drunk when I posted lol)....Back to me normal self now....and I don't appreciate ya post!


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## onimocnhoj (Sep 18, 2013)

I don't think anyone who keeps JAGS is a bad person, but people who do are somewhat supporting their history of smuggling in an indirect 'passive' fashion. Is it because they are established here now that we can forget the nasty ways they got to Australia? Do people with JAGS simply say, "I didn't smuggle them so I'm not doing anything wrong"

The raw truth to purchasing a JAG is, "Do you support animal smuggling?" This applies to those wanting to breed them and to those just wanting a pretty pet. Ask yourself as you contemplate your next purchase. Then ask yourself if you don't mind the chance of buying a snake with co-ordination issues. 

When the next new crazy morph pops up overseas, how many will pass on the opportunity to own one? Would everyone look back at this JAG drama and say "Whoa, not this again". Even if the problems with a new morph are comparable to those associated with JAGS or worse, too many will crawl over broken glass to be the first to have a new morph in their collection. 

The other element to indirectly keeping the JAG problems alive are breeders. There are a few responsible breeders who I hope are honest with what they sell, but how do these breeders screen their customers? There is no way to tell if someone who purchases a JAG or sibling from a breeder won't on sell it as something else or breed it and call the progeny pure and so the confusion continues..

If every keeper could have foreseen the dramas (genetically and socially) with these animals would they still have been in high demand when first offered? The answer is one thousand times YES because the cash spoke loud and clear. 

Any animals produced in captivity must be considered 'man-made' to a degree. The real question is 'what does man choose to make?'


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## champagne (Sep 18, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> I don't think anyone who keeps JAGS is a bad person, but people who do are somewhat supporting their history of smuggling in an indirect 'passive' fashion. Is it because they are established here now that we can forget the nasty ways they got to Australia? Do people with JAGS simply say, "I didn't smuggle them so I'm not doing anything wrong"
> 
> The raw truth to purchasing a JAG is, "Do you support animal smuggling?" This applies to those wanting to breed them and to those just wanting a pretty pet. Ask yourself as you contemplate your next purchase.



its funny how everyone cries about smuggled jags, zebras, granites ect but when it comes to exotic green tree pythons it always seems to be another story.... you can now even keep the exotic gtp in Queensland as long as you pay more money and upgrade your license of course, so even the authorities are happy to profit from reptile smuggling

- - - Updated - - -



Vixen said:


> And how on Earth do you know this, only those individuals that have imported these Jags would know which bloodlines they came from and even then it's all heresay and rumors if they are pure Coastal or not. Jags are a mess and I really don't see how anyone can still label them are 'pure' in my eyes.



were you there when your ''pure'' animals were taken from the wild? no? then its all hearsay that they are ''pure'' and even if you were how do you know that someone's pet jungle wasn't released, bred with a wild coastal and this was your ''pure'' wild caught coastal? you cant so you shouldn't be labelling them as being pure when you are selling them.... same argument.


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## onimocnhoj (Sep 18, 2013)

Mr btsmorphs..

I personally only keep Australian green pythons for the same reasons and do not cry for people's uninformed or unconsidered choices. In QLD, all greens require a permit upgrade regardless of their nationality.

It is true that 'purebred' animals are labeled this way with an amount of hearsay and only very few reputable breeders could be confident with the authenticity of their stock. Individuals breeding purebred animals have their reputations on the line with their claims. This confidence and history is then passed onto the customer to continue a pure line if they choose to do so. It is up to the purchaser to decide who they acquire their animals from when considering the worth of ones words. 

No one seems to want to put their hand up for the importation and or origin of JAGS in Australia, I doubt even the first smuggler new exactly what they had. The comparison you have made to educate Vixen is very weak as many of the well established lines in captivity have been around for as long as captive reptiles. It is so extremely unlikely that it by no means could be considered 'the same argument'..


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## champagne (Sep 19, 2013)

it all comes down to hearsay, you either trust the persons word you are buying off or not. unfortunately even some of the well known breeders are happy to do doggy stuff. Some of the people know exactly the line of the jags they got, just like the guys in the states knew exactly what albinos they were getting in return... no ones is going to stand up and say it was them, even if they did like everything else in this hobby it would all be hearsay anyway


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## TrueBlue (Sep 19, 2013)

btsmorphs,-

Come on now. When it boils down to it I think that you and these people that you are refering to know perfectly well that there are no true pure coastal jags, seriously no one could be so naive or stupid, (no offence intended). Its a bit like believing in the the tooth fariy.


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## fishbot (Sep 19, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> it all comes down to hearsay, you either trust the persons word you are buying off or not. unfortunately even some of the well known breeders are happy to do doggy stuff. Some of the people know exactly the line of the jags they got, just like the guys in the states knew exactly what albinos they were getting in return... no ones is going to stand up and say it was them, even if they did like everything else in this hobby it would all be hearsay anyway



You can’t use the hearsay argument to prove others wrong and prove yourself correct. Hearsay is inadmissible evidence, ie it’s not enough evidence to prove anything. Thus, if it’s all hearsay then we can’t believe anyone, therefore we can’t believe you. 

You’ve paradoxed yourself into a corner.


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## champagne (Sep 19, 2013)

fishbot said:


> You can’t use the hearsay argument to prove others wrong and prove yourself correct. Hearsay is inadmissible evidence, ie it’s not enough evidence to prove anything. Thus, if it’s all hearsay then we can’t believe anyone, therefore we can’t believe you.
> 
> You’ve paradoxed yourself into a corner.


 learn to read mate makes yourself look very.... I said people have bred the original jags back to pure coastals and some of these lines are available in Australia. I also said unfortunately no one (this includes all the purist know it all's in Australia) will ever know the truth about the original jags expect the original breeder... there is so many back stabbing in this hobby of course someone will claim they know the true story. no pure jags, zebras or granites... I've even been told that Steve's axanthic coastal line and robs hypos were crosses, so if enough people say it does that make it the truth? anyway you guys keep saving the hobby from the crosses.


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## Vixen (Sep 19, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> I said people have bred the original jags back to pure coastals and some of these lines are available in Australia.



Sorry but back to the start again, how do you know that any of the smuggled animals were pure Coastal jags, or am I missing something?


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## TrueBlue (Sep 19, 2013)

Oh there would be pure blood jags overseas no dought, but they are IJ animals not coastals.
The truth came out a number of years ago about the jags. it was all to do with paper work, or lack of it, that they were not originally coastals.


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## champagne (Sep 19, 2013)

Vixen said:


> Sorry but back to the start again, how do you know that any of the smuggled animals were pure Coastal jags, or am I missing something?



would you like to know all the names involved, shipping dates and what port they came through as well.... lol


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## Vixen (Sep 19, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> would you like to know all the names involved, shipping dates and what port they came through as well.... lol


I have absolutely no interest in the doings of smugglers fullstop, where did that come from? I just can't understand how (without you having inside knowledge) you can be so adamant and defensive that they are pure coastal Jags that were smuggled in. Noone but those people could possibly even know that, and as John mentioned, they still probably didn't even know what they had at the time. But you seem to, so all good, it's settled.


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## swampie (Sep 19, 2013)

At the end of the day even if the original jags were pure coastals (I doubt it) there is no way in hell that you could say with any certainty that animals from that line are in Australia.
They were smuggled into the country by dishonest crooks, that should be all the info you need to make a judgement about the purity of these animals....


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## SamNabz (Sep 19, 2013)

From the few threads you've been posting in of late, btsmorphs, you seem to try and make it out that you have great insider knowledge... Yet you never provide any references to your claims and/or how you came up with whatever rubbish you are posting. Not once.

For example, this line here: "I said people have bred the original jags back to pure coastals and some of these lines are available in Australia." - please give us just a small indication of how you can say this with any certainty.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 19, 2013)

Sorry to disapoint you btsmorhps, but the hypos I breed are pure coastal. DNA them if you like.


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## champagne (Sep 19, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Sorry to disapoint you btsmorhps, but the hypos I breed are pure coastal. DNA them if you like.



some of simons rpm were dna and came back as coastals so are they pure as well?

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SamNabz said:


> From the few threads you've been posting in of late, btsmorphs, you seem to try and make it out that you have great insider knowledge... Yet you never provide any references to your claims and/or how you came up with whatever rubbish you are posting. Not once.
> 
> For example, this line here: "I said people have bred the original jags back to pure coastals and some of these lines are available in Australia." - please give us just a small indication of how you can say this with any certainty.



yes I personally know of a ''pure coastal'' line of jags in Australia as do other people, there were swapped for pure albino darwins.... they weren't smuggled by crooks but a ''reputable'' breeder that is on here. No one is going to give you exact details/proof on an open forum.


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## swampie (Sep 19, 2013)

Lol....weren't smuggled by crooks but a reputable breeder.....smugglers are dishonest crooks full stop.
At least your posts are amusing...


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## Bushman (Sep 19, 2013)

Really good discussion guys but please keep it civil.


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## swampie (Sep 19, 2013)

Oh dear.....


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## SamNabz (Sep 19, 2013)

I ask for facts, he returns with a "yes I personally know of..". Amazing.

Also, I didn't know that if you are a 'reputable breeder' you can't be labelled a crook for smuggling.


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## longqi (Sep 19, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> unfortunately there is no way to prove what the original jags come from and the stories are all hearsay... but the story goes that they were pure coastal pairing and there are people who have only crossed these originals back to pure coastals which is the lines that people are referring to when they say pure coastal jags and these lines are in Australia.



Look at the size of Aussie jags
If they were pure coastal what size would they be??
Any coastal can reach 12ft
Not many Aussie jags reach 8ft

Although Jan Engels is still adamant the original pairing was coastals within 2 years all the German Dutch and American breeders were adding IJ to improve the yellow
So any jag less than 12ft long with yellow highlights most definitely has IJ in it

When I see a 12ft Aussie jag with low yellow, similar to the original jags, I will believe the "Pure Coastal Jag" story
Until then its just a myth


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 19, 2013)

From the original breeder of jags Jan Eric Engell

There has been a lot of discussions on Carpet forums whether my Jaguars are actual Coastals or not.
During the 1960’ies and 1970’ies the only Carpet Pythons you could get your hands on here in Europe were Coastals. All of the Carpets I collected at the time were the Brisbane variety. 

Their lenghts speak for themselves. Simply the fact that my Coastals have reached lenghts on average of 10-11 feet, with the exceptions of a few 13 footers should be proof enough. My “Big Mamma“ as I call my oldest normal Coastal is now 13 feet. Two of my largest Jaguars are now approximately 10 and 11 feet long.
Do Jungles or Irians reach such sizes?

I had not even heard about Jungle or Irian Carpets when the new reptile law went into effect on January 1st. 1977, making it illegal to import reptiles to Norway. From this date on it was also illegal to own reptiles unless you obtained a dispensation from the Ministry of Agriculture. I do possess such a permit on all my snakes.

My facility is inspected a few times each year by the Norwegian Veterinary authorities. Not only are the python eggs inspected and counted, but also the babies after they hatch. Everything is accounted for and if as much as one animal should die during the year I have to put it in the freezer and report it to the authorities. I also have to keep the empty eggs frozen until the inspector arrives. All the frozen eggs as well as potential dead animals are then handed over to the vet. inspector. These are used in educational purposes or properly disposed of by the authorities.
THAT IS HOW STRICT IT IS HERE IN NORWAY. Be glad you herpers do not live here!

In other words keeping illegal animals at my facility is not worth the risk of having my collection confiscated. The only Carpet Python I have a permit for is the Coastal Carpet (former variegatae, now mcdowelli) and that is the only Carpet specie I intend to keep here in Norway. End of story!

And if you wonder why it was called variegatae back then it was simply because the Morelia “Carpet” group was devided into variegatae (all the Carpets), bredli (Centralians) and spilota (Diamonds). They were not separated into subspecies back then.

So there won’t be any further misunderstandings to the following warning. Two Europeans and one Las Vegas petstore manager tried to pass off their Irian Jaya Carpets as true Jaguars during 2001/2002. I have kept all the correspondence as evidence, just in case I ever needed proof.
NOTE!

Be aware that there are a few Irian Jaya Carpets out there that can be mistaken for true Jaguar Coastals. At least as far as pattern is concerned, but the comparison ends there. Most importantly, the color is totally different. 

True Jaguars develop with age a bright yellow/orange background color.
Furthermore, the true Jaguar bloodline is capable of producing several unique Jaguar morphs.
I would therefore simply call these Irian Jayas for so-called "false" Jaguars at best, since they lack the possibilities of true Jaguars. Even though Irian Jaya Carpets are beautiful animals I would not want people to get ripped off, expecting or hoping these to be from my Jaguar bloodline.
I just wanted to clear this up once and for all.
Thank you!
Jan Eric Engell

Text of Jan Eric Engell


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## Ramsayi (Sep 19, 2013)

Jungle_Freak said:


> From the original breeder of jags Jan Eric Engell --There has been a lot of discussions on Carpet forums whether my Jaguars are actual Coastals or not.
> During the 1960’ies and 1970’ies the only Carpet Pythons you could get your hands on here in Europe were Coastals. All of the Carpets I collected at the time were the Brisbane variety.



I find that comment to be a bit cynical.How could he possibly know that his originals were Brisbane carpets? Did he ever come out and say were he got his original animals from?


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 19, 2013)

Jan did have big Brissy looking coastals on his web site. So it appears he did have Brissy stock...
But he never posted pics of the parents of the first jag , so this is where the questions arise as to what they looked like..
Heres some pics of the Brissy stock that Jan had on his web site from many years ago..

But as far as I am concerned, I highly doubt there would be pure Coastal jags in oz.. There is no way their lineage could be confirmed as pure coastal etc....


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## longqi (Sep 19, 2013)

That letter by Jan Engels was in late 2002 after other sellers tried to sell pure IJ carpets as jags
He has kept fairly quiet about things ever since, which is perfectly understandable 

At that time the Dutch Germans and Yanks were just introducing IJs into the Coastal Jag lines
Jags never really hit the market until 2004

After IJs were introduced the size dropped dramatically
Also a lot more patterns and colours came onto the scene
What we see in Aus is vastly different to the original, possibly 'pure coastal jags'


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