# BHP toxin immunity



## SteveNT (Mar 27, 2011)

I used to know a bloke up here (sadly deceased) named Graham Gow.

He claimed that bhp's were immune to the toxins of taipans, death adders, browns, etc.

He felt that given the fact that current broad spectrum antivenines were as dangerous as the bite itself in many cases, someone should find out what the bhps had in their system that could defeat such a range of toxins.

I've never seen it but he said bhps grab the vens mid body and work their way up to the head before swallowing, thus getting bitten in the process.

He was always looking for a PHD student to take it on but I guess that would be too scary for many.

Any comment?


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## Flaviruthless (Mar 27, 2011)

I think that would be absolutely fascinating. I'd love to do a PHD on that... (when I get there!) I don't have any insight as to why how they would be immune unfortunately.


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## viridis (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi mate,

When my old man worked at Hartley's Creek Zoo in the early 1970's, he had a large wild caught Coastal Taipan in a holding enclosure ready to be put on display in the morning.

During the night someone dropped off a 2.5 meter wild Black Headed after closing time (got to love pre licensing laws) Garry Zillflesh (Zoo's owner at the time) did not know of the Taipan in the holding enclosure and placed the BHP into the same cage. Lucky for Garry, not only was he not bitten by the Taipan, he did not even know it was in there! 

Come morning time, Rex went to check on the prized elapid catch from the day before and was shocked to see a Black Headed in the corner of the cage, fat as pie with the Coastal Taipan in her belly.

The Black Headed was fine and it just goes to show how tough they are against venomous elapids and also how OH&S played no part in FNQ's first Zoo


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## REPTILIAN-KMAN (Mar 28, 2011)

yeah i saw that on a docos BHP imunne and they said so was the woma


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## Waterrat (Mar 28, 2011)

BHPs are not the only species immune to elapid venoms. More or less, all reptiles, including lacies, that prey on elapids are immune to their venoms.


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## waruikazi (Mar 28, 2011)

I just typed up a pretty big post but it deleted before i go tot post it. I hate this computer!


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## Waterrat (Mar 28, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I just typed up a pretty big post but it deleted before i go tot post it. I hate this computer!



PC Windows? By a Mac and you will never have a problem. Trust me.


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## waruikazi (Mar 28, 2011)

My experience backs up what michael has said. But i'll ad that reptiles that are prey items to vens also have a level of immunity to venom.

There is some research going on that is looking at using the snakes own blood products that allows them to be immune to their own venom as an anti venom. But from the reading that i have done, using snake blood products won't stop serum sickness and imo may even cause serum sickness to be worse. The serum sickness is caused because of the body rejecting foreign blood products in your blood, the less similar the animal is to us the worse the sickness and the less effective the anti-venom. 

Still an interesting topic.



Waterrat said:


> PC Windows? By a Mac and you will never have a problem. Trust me.



No it's the laptop i'm working on lol. I accidentily bumped the mouse pad and kept typing which somehow caused the window to close.


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## SteveNT (Mar 28, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I just typed up a pretty big post but it deleted before i go tot post it. I hate this computer!



Yep. familiar with that one. I make a word document first if I'm doing a big spiel these days, then cut and paste.


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 28, 2011)

Completely immune, or just a high tolerance? I didn't think a full immunity to venoms had been proven.


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## Waterrat (Mar 28, 2011)

Steve, I think tolerance in this case equals immunity. If elapid predators were feeling even slightly sick after ingesting venom, elapid prey would be unpalatable to them. The same goes for direct bites.
What is also interesting that for example King cobras regularly feed on pit-vipers and they're getting bitten in the process. Pit-viper's venom has pretty nasty local effect resulting in necrosis, gangrene, etc. (that is in humans), yet the cobras seem unaffected.


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## scorps (Mar 28, 2011)

Or just to quick, ninja style


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## Braidotti (Mar 28, 2011)

The honey badger, can survive a cobra bite too


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## viridis (Mar 28, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> BHPs are not the only species immune to elapid venoms. More or less, all reptiles, including lacies, that prey on elapids are immune to their venoms.




How about a A. maculosa eating a D. torquata! Something different every day in FNQ


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 28, 2011)

We have to assume that BHP's get bitten in the process of subduing their prey, it would be hard to believe they don't, but does anybody know of an instance where it has been witnessed? have the effects or lack of actually been recorded post bite?


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## Waterrat (Mar 28, 2011)

viridis said:


> How about a A. maculosa eating a D. torquata! Something different every day in FNQ


Maculosa are small, cranky and have suicidal tendencies.


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## waruikazi (Mar 28, 2011)

steve1 said:


> We have to assume that BHP's get bitten in the process of subduing their prey, it would be hard to believe they don't, but does anybody know of an instance where it has been witnessed? have the effects or lack of actually been recorded post bite?



I know of one case study that was referenced in a media release where a bunch of womas were killed by mulgas. And i have seen a video of a brown crawling out of a red bellies mouth.


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## viridis (Mar 28, 2011)

Aspidities are too 'dopey' to always grab and elapid by the head. They would be bitten most of the time. 

Have you ever seen an adult BHP in the wild with no scars? I have never ever seen a 'scar - less' adult.


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## Waterrat (Mar 28, 2011)

Some of the scaring are claw marks. Big BHPs often get stuck into smaller lacies and they rip them up.


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## viridis (Mar 28, 2011)

That is my point, if they will readily take on large monitors as a prey item, grabbing an Elapid mid boody hardly seems life threatening!

I know of a large BHP (2700mm) collected near Quamby in the early 70's that regurged a V. panoptes around 4 feet total length! I can imagine the smell of that in the back of the car on a 45 deg December day!


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 28, 2011)

Kookaburras pick up small browns midbody are they immune?


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## DanN (Mar 28, 2011)

Check this out - semi-relevant

Why the cobra is resistant to its own venom? - Dr. Zoltan Takacs


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## Waterrat (Mar 28, 2011)

Interesting, thanks Dan.


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## cement (Mar 28, 2011)

Being a reptile eater, and knowing what they are like when they go in for the kill, they shoot first and ask questions later, they wouldn't distinguish between an adder or a taipan or a keelback. So sooner or later the ones that are immune are going to pass on that gene, hence the bullet proof BHP.
It would be interesting to see a hungry mulga come across a hungry blackhead of the same size.


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## junglepython2 (Mar 28, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> He felt that given the fact that current broad spectrum antivenines were as dangerous as the bite itself in many cases, someone should find out what the bhps had in their system that could defeat such a range of toxins.
> 
> I've never seen it but he said bhps grab the vens mid body and work their way up to the head before swallowing, thus getting bitten in the process.
> 
> ...



I'd guess that most resistance is due to receptor changes rather then deactivating components so I doubt you could use it to improve snake bite treatment, but it would be an interesting area to study.


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## imported_Varanus (Mar 28, 2011)

Interesting topic, thanks for sharing. Is it a documented fact that Lacies are immune to elapid venom? Also, I recently had a relocation involving a RBB that was bitten by one of it's own kind. The "victim" was in rehab overnight and dead the next morning, also partially digested, and very smelly.


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## mmafan555 (Apr 1, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> I used to know a bloke up here (sadly deceased) named Graham Gow.
> 
> He claimed that bhp's were immune to the toxins of taipans, death adders, browns, etc.
> 
> ...



Didn't Graham Gow also say that Australia has like 21 of the top 25 most venomous snakes in the world..


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## gillsy (Apr 1, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> Yep. familiar with that one. I make a word document first if I'm doing a big spiel these days, then cut and paste.



I do the same for a big post.


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## nathancl (Apr 1, 2011)

viridis said:


> That is my point, if they will readily take on large monitors as a prey item, grabbing an Elapid mid boody hardly seems life threatening!
> 
> I know of a large BHP (2700mm) collected near Quamby in the early 70's that regurged a V. panoptes around 4 feet total length! I can imagine the smell of that in the back of the car on a 45 deg December day!



HAHAHAHAHA that would be the worse smell! i cant stand it when a mouse gets regurged in my house let alone a half digested panoptes that has probably been feeding on rotting carrion.


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## waruikazi (Apr 1, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> Didn't Graham Gow also say that Australia has like 21 of the top 25 most venomous snakes in the world..


 
mmafan555, you are not worth wasting my breath on.


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## SteveNT (Apr 1, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> Didn't Graham Gow also say that Australia has like 21 of the top 25 most venomous snakes in the world..


 
He probably did and was probably bitten by every one of them at one time or another.

He was a top bloke, never hid from his mistakes (and he made a few) and he was always willing to spend time with anyone interested in herps. The world's a poorer place......

Cant find Gordo on your friends list there cobber :?


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## mmafan555 (Apr 1, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> He probably did and was probably bitten by every one of them at one time or another.
> 
> He was a top bloke, never hid from his mistakes (and he made a few) and he was always willing to spend time with anyone interested in herps. The world's a poorer place......
> 
> Cant find Gordo on your friends list there cobber :?


 
Not saying he isn't/wasn't a good guy.. But come on.... If he really believes that... He is the biggest Australian homer ever...

Edit..

By the way I wasn't aware that he had died.. In that case I fully apologize for that comment..I thought he was alive and thought I would just make a sarcastic/joke comment.. I apologize...that was very disrespectful of me.


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## Darlyn (Apr 1, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> Not saying he isn't/wasn't a good guy.. But come on.... If he really believes that... He is the biggest Australian homer ever...
> 
> Edit..
> 
> By the way I wasn't aware that he had died.. In that case I fully apologize for that comment..I thought he was alive and thought I would just make a sarcastic/joke comment.. I apologize...that was very disrespectful of me.





Don't you know what deceased means?


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## CamdeJong (Apr 1, 2011)

Studies in Brazil and Venezuela, published in Toxicon in 1991, revealed that natural neurotoxin immunity (tested with snake venom) is the result of a protein, probably glycoprotein, designed to negate the effects of venom. It was also proposed that antihemmorhagic factors were based on the same mechanism. I'd like to study the field post grad as it's not yet comprehensively researched, especially in Australia.


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## SteveNT (Apr 1, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> Not saying he isn't/wasn't a good guy.. But come on.... If he really believes that... He is the biggest Australian homer ever...
> 
> Edit..
> 
> By the way I wasn't aware that he had died.. In that case I fully apologize for that comment..I thought he was alive and thought I would just make a sarcastic/joke comment.. I apologize...that was very disrespectful of me.


 
Thanks for the insightful and valuable contribution to the thread. Clearly there is at least 1 bigger Australian homer out there.



CamdeJong said:


> Studies in Brazil and Venezuela, published in Toxicon in 1991, revealed that natural neurotoxin immunity (tested with snake venom) is the result of a protein, probably glycoprotein, designed to negate the effects of venom. It was also proposed that antihemmorhagic factors were based on the same mechanism. I'd like to study the field post grad as it's not yet comprehensively researched, especially in Australia.



Mate it is a shame you didn't (or couldnt) put your hand up 10 years ago. Graham had every "raw material" you could possibly need and he was passionate about this line of research. 

Good info. Thanks



steve1 said:


> We have to assume that BHP's get bitten in the process of subduing their prey, it would be hard to believe they don't, but does anybody know of an instance where it has been witnessed? have the effects or lack of actually been recorded post bite?



GG claimed to have witnessed it but with no documentary evidence (tough job in the 70's). He also said he had found a taipan and a death adder inside 2 seperate bhp roadkills. Few roadkills escaped his scalpel.


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## CamdeJong (Apr 1, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> Mate it is a shame you didn't (or couldnt) put your hand up 10 years ago. Graham had every "raw material" you could possibly need and he was passionate about this line of research.
> 
> Good info. Thanks



Yeah unfortunately I was halfway through year 5. Huge shame though, would love to have had a chance to meet Graham, one can only imagine the knowledge and experience lost with greats like him. I'm sure it was passed on to the countless people who knew him though, and Snakes of Australia is a permanent member of my glove box =)


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## SteveNT (Apr 1, 2011)

CamdeJong said:


> Yeah unfortunately I was halfway through year 5. Huge shame though, would love to have had a chance to meet Graham, one can only imagine the knowledge and experience lost with greats like him. I'm sure it was passed on to the countless people who knew him though, and Snakes of Australia is a permanent member of my glove box =)



I've met many people like Graham but not in this particular field. Most of then never achieved fame or fortune but each was a gem in their own area.

What really kills me is watching the old (and I mean old) Indigenous people up here moving on. The knowledge and skills lost are irreplaceable. I am one of the fortunate people to have spent big time with some of these people and I am a rich man for it. 

But such is life. 
New knowledges are accumulating as the world turns.


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## mmafan555 (Apr 2, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Don't you know what deceased means?


 
Yes obviously... I thought he was still alive and an active herpetologist...

By the way I was wrong.. He didn't say that.... Struan Sutherland was the guy who said that Australia has 21 of the top 25.

And stop with all the fake outrage at my comments..I just made a valid point that I now know doesn't even apply for him.



SteveNT said:


> Thanks for the insightful and valuable contribution to the thread. Clearly there is at least 1 bigger Australian homer out there.



Any time... When people make public statements( especially something like that)... they should be questioned and discussed...Nothing disrespectful in my comment( through I once again apologize because it was disrespectful since he is no longer living.) But like I said I made a mistake... He as far as I know never even made the comment.. Struan Sutherland said it..


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## bally (Apr 4, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> BHPs are not the only species immune to elapid venoms. More or less, all reptiles, including lacies, that prey on elapids are immune to their venoms.



Michael, firstly sorry for going back so far in this thread. 

I was speaking with Dr bryan Fry not long along whilst with Jonno Lucas on the "immunity" of other reptiles in particular large monitors to elapid venom. He said nothing has been proven but as far as he has worked on it he doesnt believe them to be immune just highly tolerable of the venom. It may be that monitor scales (which contain a slight fragment of bone) are too thick and tough for the elapids to pierce completely and thus a full envenomation does not occur. But saying that this is only a theory thus far. There is cases of monitors dying for elapid bites.

With bhp i expect them to have a higher tolerance but also to be not immune to the venom...

Sorry for high jacking this thread

Cheers Nick


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## eipper (Apr 4, 2011)

there are also cases of elapids eating varanids too.

MMA FAN ...do everyone a favor and go back to wherever you came from and don't let the proverbial door hit you on the way out...your "arguments" are based without fact and you just try to stir the pot....you have now had a crack at two people that are not with us anymore, that had both forgotten more about venom than you will ever learn


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## SteveNT (Sep 18, 2011)

CamdeJong said:


> Studies in Brazil and Venezuela, published in Toxicon in 1991, revealed that natural neurotoxin immunity (tested with snake venom) is the result of a protein, probably glycoprotein, designed to negate the effects of venom. It was also proposed that antihemmorhagic factors were based on the same mechanism. I'd like to study the field post grad as it's not yet comprehensively researched, especially in Australia.



please DO!


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## daveandem2011 (Sep 19, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> The honey badger, can survive a cobra bite too



The Honey Badger is bad ***!!


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## geckodan (Sep 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> BHPs are not the only species immune to elapid venoms. More or less, all reptiles, including lacies, that prey on elapids are immune to their venoms.


Is there any science to support this, particularly in monitors??


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## imported_Varanus (Sep 19, 2011)

geckodan said:


> Is there any science to support this, particularly in monitors??



I seem to remember this being discussed before, somewhere, and the conclusion was that the "immunity" larger monitors seem to have to elapid venom comes in the form of osteoderms in the skin?!


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## Treknotechelaps (Sep 22, 2011)

The fact that BHP can prey upon highly venomous Elapids, surviving their bites and producing mild reactions from a bite could be an evolutionary path towards the genus _Aspidites_ convergently evolving to be like Elapid snakes, they are the only pythons to lack heat-sensory pits, look more elapid-like than other pythons ie. lacking a distinct head, and i have heard of a few people suffering mild reactions to their bites. Giving the BHP another half a million years or more of evolution it would be interesting to see what advances they have acquired. They could be evolving to become a venomous python species!
I recall at a meeting a herpetologist (cant remember who it was) giving a talk about BHPs about 5 or so years ago about them evolving to be like elapids and about mild reactions to their bites, have others heard of anything alike.


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## imported_Varanus (Sep 22, 2011)

Perhaps the narrow head thing could be a reflection of their terrestrial, foraging natures and the need to stick their heads into every small opening in the search for food whereas ambush predators (like Morelia and Death Adders) don't need the adaption?


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## SteveNT (Sep 22, 2011)

Elapo said:


> The fact that BHP can prey upon highly venomous Elapids, surviving their bites and producing mild reactions from a bite could be an evolutionary path towards the genus _Aspidites_ convergently evolving to be like Elapid snakes, they are the only pythons to lack heat-sensory pits, look more elapid-like than other pythons ie. lacking a distinct head, and i have heard of a few people suffering mild reactions to their bites. Giving the BHP another half a million years or more of evolution it would be interesting to see what advances they have acquired. They could be evolving to become a venomous python species!
> I recall at a meeting a herpetologist (cant remember who it was) giving a talk about BHPs about 5 or so years ago about them evolving to be like elapids and about mild reactions to their bites, have others heard of anything alike.



Nope, nothing. Nor have I heard of aspidites causing toxic reactions in bite victims. Keep us informed bro. Sounds interesting but....
what is the basis for this? I dont see how a narrower head = evolving toxicity in non existant fangs??


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 22, 2011)

A large sand monitor was bitten by a king brown here in the Pilbara and died very quickly.
Witnessed and photographed by John Weigel a couple of years ago.


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## waruikazi (Sep 23, 2011)

That would suggest that they are a more advanced species of python, which they aren't. From memory Aspidites is supposed to be amongst the most primitive of the pythons.

I've had interesting reactions to python bites before, mainly significant but very short term swelling.



Elapo said:


> The fact that BHP can prey upon highly venomous Elapids, surviving their bites and producing mild reactions from a bite could be an evolutionary path towards the genus _Aspidites_ convergently evolving to be like Elapid snakes, they are the only pythons to lack heat-sensory pits, look more elapid-like than other pythons ie. lacking a distinct head, and i have heard of a few people suffering mild reactions to their bites. Giving the BHP another half a million years or more of evolution it would be interesting to see what advances they have acquired. They could be evolving to become a venomous python species!
> I recall at a meeting a herpetologist (cant remember who it was) giving a talk about BHPs about 5 or so years ago about them evolving to be like elapids and about mild reactions to their bites, have others heard of anything alike.


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## SteveNT (Sep 24, 2011)

Maybe primitive enough to have adapted to a range of venoms as they appeared???


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## garthy (Sep 24, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> The honey badger, can survive a cobra bite too


But they do slow down considerably to get over it.


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## SteveNT (Sep 24, 2011)

imported_Varanus said:


> Perhaps the narrow head thing could be a reflection of their terrestrial, foraging natures and the need to stick their heads into every small opening in the search for food whereas ambush predators (like Morelia and Death Adders) don't need the adaption?



More likely that morelia and death adders evolved a broad head to suit their pursuits, but from a simple bhp style snake ancestor. Designs that are successful dont need to evolve a great deal, crocs or dragonflies for example.


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## Treknotechelaps (Sep 26, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> what is the basis for this? I dont see how a narrower head = evolving toxicity in non existant fangs??



I didnt mean that having a narrower head had any relation to evolving toxicity just the two characteristics were seen in some elapid species.
What i meant about a narrower head is that all other Australian Pythons have a head that is much more distinct from the neck. The narrower head resembling Elapid snakes more like some Pseudonaja and Oxyuranus microlepidotus with the black head colouration and similar head shape.
I didn't mention anything about BHP having fangs, they could be at early stages of evoloving venom glands, and could possibly exude the toxin through their saliva. They were still at early stages of investigating this 5 or more years ago when i heard about it. Or it could all be load of ****, but an interesting concept.


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## grimbeny (Sep 26, 2011)

I have always had an ubsubstantiated idea that blackheads are evolving to look like highly venemous elapids. Its much cheaper to look venemous than be venemous.


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## Treknotechelaps (Sep 27, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> That would suggest that they are a more advanced species of python, which they aren't. From memory Aspidites is supposed to be amongst the most primitive of the pythons.



Being a primitive species of python or not there's still the possibility of venom evolving in some reptile species, they've been around as long as other snake species that have evolved the use of venom, although not at the advanced state as seen in Elapids and some Colubrids. Recently the Komodo Dragon and Lace Monitor have been shown to possess venom glands, and possibly some other Varanus species, also Bearded Dragons- one of the toxins found in the venom of the Bearded Dragon had previosuly only been identified in rattlesnake venom. Being primitive snakes they could have the potential to evolve the use of venom in a different way, released from the venom glands into the saliva and the venom working its way into the blood when the reptile chews on its victim. Being a primitive snake they would be more closely related to varanids or whatever lizard pythons evolved from. Evolution of animals in Australia has led to some bizarre results and anything could be possible.

I should have said more of a general reaction resulting from some BHP bites, i've copped some pretty nasty bites from pythons that have taken a while to heal, not from BHP tho.



waruikazi said:


> I've had interesting reactions to python bites before, mainly significant but very short term swelling.


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## Oscar90 (Sep 27, 2011)

Elapo said:


> Being a primitive species of python or not there's still the possibility of venom evolving in some reptile species, they've been around as long as other snake species that have evolved the use of venom, although not at the advanced state as seen in Elapids and some Colubrids. Recently the Komodo Dragon and Lace Monitor have been shown to possess venom glands, and possibly some other Varanus species, also Bearded Dragons- one of the toxins found in the venom of the Bearded Dragon had previosuly only been identified in rattlesnake venom. Being primitive snakes they could have the potential to evolve the use of venom in a different way, released from the venom glands into the saliva and the venom working its way into the blood when the reptile chews on its victim. Being a primitive snake they would be more closely related to varanids or whatever lizard pythons evolved from. Evolution of animals in Australia has led to some bizarre results and anything could be possible.
> 
> I should have said more of a general reaction resulting from some BHP bites, i've copped some pretty nasty bites from pythons that have taken a while to heal, not from BHP tho.



i know its not a reptile but i wonder about the toxin on platypus spike things


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## CamdeJong (Sep 28, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> That would suggest that they are a more advanced species of python, which they aren't. From memory Aspidites is supposed to be amongst the most primitive of the pythons.



I've always thought that too. Even when handling Aspidites it's clear by the way they move and the musculature that they've undergone less change from their ancestors than Morelia have. It's probably attributable to their terrestrial lifestyle in the same way that their smaller head is attributable to thinner food items (snakes and goannas as compared to mammals and marsupials). They've just not taken up a niche that requires as much specialisation as the lifestyle of arboreal pythons.


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## Beard (Sep 28, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> If elapid predators were feeling even slightly sick after ingesting venom, elapid prey would be unpalatable to them. .



Correct me if I'm misguided here but isn't venom harmless if ingested. Aren't the proteins broken down and rendered harmless within the digestion process, a major difference between a venom and a poison???


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## SteveNT (Sep 29, 2011)

Can't say I've come across that info before, but I wont be volunteering for the experimental swallowing of taipan venom soon!


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## Treknotechelaps (Oct 6, 2011)

Oscar90 said:


> i know its not a reptile but i wonder about the toxin on platypus spike things



Hmmm, not sure about the evolution of venom with the Platypus but would be interesting to read up about it sometime.


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