# Venomoid Petition



## moosenoose (Oct 22, 2006)

I thought I'd bring this to peoples attention. I gather most of you may have seen this already, but some of the newer members may not have.

There are some things in life that are completely unnecessary, and this is one of them! If they are allowed to propagate they can become a fashionable and considered the norm to newcomers of the hobby. This isn't normal, not only is it unethical, it is profiteering from cruelty! 

Hoser might be a good bloke, a helpful friend to those who know him, I wouldn't personally know as I don't know him......but sadly he still feels this sort of practice is his God-given right! I think a bunch of signatures will help to prove otherwise! An outline of what this petition is all about is on the following link.







http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/index.php



> This petition is not about venomoids, it's about the procedure Ray Hoser uses to remove the venom glands from his snakes. The pros and cons of venomoids is a completely separate issue.


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## will.i.am (Oct 22, 2006)

just signed it then


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## freddy (Oct 22, 2006)

*signed it Moosey boy.........!!*


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## azza74 (Oct 22, 2006)

cant believe hed actually do it, reminds me of the movie finding nemo and the effect that had on clown fish when every kid wanted one.....

signed it


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## alumba (Oct 22, 2006)

yeh moosey signed it


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## DrOsteo (Oct 22, 2006)

What i want to know is:

- how is the venom gland actually removed?
- what permanent / temporary damage does it do to the snake?
- has there been any research to say that it has damaging affects to the snake?
- what is so bad about removing the venom glands, considering the potentially life threatening consequences of being bitten by your "pet"?

I do not keep any vens and never plan to. I am also taking neither side in this argument, simply asking questions to gain a better understanding of why this practice should/should not be performed.

thankyou


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## clarkey (Oct 22, 2006)

DrOsteo,
What he basically does is puts the snake in the fridge or freezer until it is so cold it can't move, then he opens the snakes mouth, tapes one of their jaws to a board and then cuts out the venem glands with no anesthetic. You can decide if this is very nice or not.


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## caustichumor (Oct 30, 2006)

That is idiotic. Venomous snakes are a highly evolved reptile, And handling them as you would with a non-venomous species is only going to breed contempt and complacency. You should hold a natural fear and respect of venomous animals. They are not to be trivalised and tortured for an ego trip.
For all of you who saw the movie kill bill. They used a devenomised black mamba in that movie.


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## Australis (Oct 30, 2006)

DrOsteo,

All the info is in that link and also links to Ray Hosers own site showing in detail how the glands are removed


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## snakes4me2 (Oct 30, 2006)

LOL freddy love the monkeys :lol:

Signed that last time  good idea to bring it up again moose


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## cris (Oct 30, 2006)

There are a few possible reasons for ppl signing this IMO
1. they dont like ray hoser(the main reason for this petition being started IMO)
2. they think it is unethical to remove a snakes venom(even though it cant/doesnt use it in captivity apart from possibly biting a person)
3. they think it is cruel how it is done even though NOONE actually knows if what he does does reduces pain/stress.
4. They want to sign it without knowing what is going on to keep with the crowd.
5. they dont like messy pictures
6. they dont like how it takes away from how they feel special or tough for free handling venomous snakes when this allows the same snakes handled by young children.
7. They think its illegal even though he basically has a green light and is encourage by the law to do it.

Some of these reasons are quite worthy IMO but others arnt. Im not going to sign it unless someone can prove that it is unreasonably cruel or has any detremental effect on the snake.

I hate the thought of ppl getting a void just to show them off and to make themselves look cool, but some ppl do that with vens anyway. That is not what the petetion is about its is about Ray Hoser and he voids his snakes so they can be used to teach ppl not to kill snakes, this is a good thing IMO. Basically im only against voids if they are made for the wrong reasons and IMO teaching ppl about snakes is a good reason.

I know alot of ppl dont agree with this and think ray is incompetant and he can use venomous snakes etc. and i think almost everyone has good intentions in signing or not signing it just depends on how you see things really.


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## moosenoose (Oct 30, 2006)

That's fine Cris, your concerns are understandable. There is certainly no "glory" in following the flock with this, but one thing I will say is this – after an operation of this magnitude, how would you feel post-op without the relief of painkillers etc??? And how long do these animals suffer the effects of such an extensive operation?? After an operation at a reptile vet, how many of you have seen pain relief supplied?? It is noted that Cats are less “catered for” when it comes to pain relief after veterinary ops than Dogs, is that because a cat has a greater pain threshold, or has a tendency not to express itself more than a dog?? Do any of us truly know these answers?? Then you just have to consider who benefits from such procedures? Certainly the animal isn’t a beneficiary, I can tell you that for an absolute fact.


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## pythonlover (Oct 30, 2006)

done...


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## da_donkey (Oct 30, 2006)

Allready signed, very important IMO.......should be outlawed


Its pretty easy " if you dont want venomous snakes, keep pythons". its that simple.


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## ando611 (Oct 30, 2006)

Without their venom glands they cannot digest their food properly.


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## azza74 (Oct 30, 2006)

the reason its wrong is because a snake is being mutilated just so it can be kept as a pet!!!!

like removing tigers claws n teeth so they can be kept as pets in the usa..

if people cant handle an animal in its natural form, they shouldnt have it...

thats the reason the petition should be signed.....


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## stokedapollo (Oct 30, 2006)

i agrre with cris to a point
taking out the venom glands so that school children etc can see up close what a venomous snake looks like without getting bitten is a good thing
the way ray does it i do not agree
if there was a better proven way it would maybe be a little diff
but i wouldnt have it done just to keep a ven 
i would have it done if i was to show snakes to schools etc
no other reason to have it done imo
i myself would not have a void
and yes i will be signing the petition


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## RodSydAus (Oct 30, 2006)

wtihout being disrespectful stokedappollo I actually think the opposite to you in respect to letting kids get near a venomous snake. I think it would just give kids a false sense of security having handled a devenomed snake. Can you imagine them coming across the snake in its natural form under other circumstances and thinking "oh yeah i played with one of them once its harmless" :shock: 
They can get close to a venomus snake without mutilating the snake, it just means they see all the safety precautions that should be taken and due respect given to an animal that could literally kill them.


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## jordo (Oct 30, 2006)

I do not support Rays methods however it hasn't been investigated as to whether it is painful to the animals or not (as far as I know), so I wont be signing the petition until I learn more about it.

Ando where did you get that information from?
Azza the venom glands are actually removed so the snakes can safely be used around people to educate them about reptiles.


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

Ando, actually it has been proven that there is no significant benefit that a snake derives from envenomation of its prey with regards to digestion. 

I think this is a real tricky one, and something that definitely requires more research before making an educated decision. 

A lot of people here are saying its cruel, its mutilation etc etc. 

Guys, i dont need an answer, but who of you are circumcised. See my point. 

A baby is circumcised, with no anesthetics, and they recieve no pain killers post op. 

Now this surgery etc is perpetrated in the name of science and education, and it appears from his site that he offers free classes. 

I wonder what is shown at these classes and whether it is worth the process of the surgery. 

basically, if the benefit derived by the viewers is greater due to the fact that they can get up close to one of these fellas is greater than the potential costs of doing the surgery then maybe it should be done. Obviously this is an extremely hard thing to prove. 

This is an extreme ethical debate, one which could go on for years and without knowing all of the information, i think that signing the petition is being ignorant.

a good example of crowd ingnorance follows

an experiment was devised to test this herd mentality, and at an environmentalist function, a couple of aptly looking people were assigned to petition against the collection, distribution, and use of H2O. After recieving a convincing little speal from the young lady, they found 98 out of the 100 people surveyed at this function signed the petition.

Only two people caught on and realised, H2O is water. 

This shows that without all of the information, a convincing story can sway a vote just through the use of some cool sounding words.

Thats it from me, i will read all the literature before i make my decision

D


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## Australis (Oct 30, 2006)

We Have it All,

I think you miss the point, the facts are clear its is illegal for Raymond Hoser to perform this operation, he is no VET.

The only advantage in showing voided animals is to his bank balance and ego.

All educational value can be given with hot animal on hook or in static displays.


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

It mustnt be illegal otherwise he wouldnt be doing it and therefore you wouldnt need a petition, also the Vic government wouldnt be supporting his program.

However, i do agree with the fact that you can gain all the education from hot animals in appropriate displays.

I dont like the problematic issues that arise from it such as complacency etc. It could actually serve the reverse effect with smaller children as Rod said

D


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## ando611 (Oct 30, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> Ando, actually it has been proven that there is no significant benefit that a snake derives from envenomation of its prey with regards to digestion.
> D



Well i've certainly read many times that their venom helps with digestion. Maybe i've been reading false literature. However i'm not going to get into a cyber debate about it, i'll just take your word for it.


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## moosenoose (Oct 30, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> i think that signing the petition is being ignorant.



Righteo, and not signing it is umm what???  It doesn't take a genius to work out that the proceedure is totally unnecessary.


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## Australis (Oct 30, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> It mustnt be illegal otherwise he wouldnt be doing it and therefore you wouldnt need a petition, also the Vic government wouldnt be supporting his program.




It Is illegal, he isnt a vet!

Where does it say the Victorian government is supporting it??


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

Ando, certain types of venoms certainly do break down tissue, though there is no proven data that shows that it significantly helps digestion,

moose: comeon dont take the quotes out of context, read the rest of the sentence, without reading all of the information concerning what he is doing is ignorant. 

Australis, you dont have to be a vet to perform scientific procedures. Though i am sure you dont want to read the Animal legislation Act, i am sure the information is in there. 

Anywho,

All of you have jumped up and down on me, to bend to your ways and beliefs.

I did not say that i agreed with what he was doing, nor did i say i disagreed.

I said that it was a complex topic that needed complete investigation and not knee jerk reactions as seen from some of you, prevalent in your attacks on me 

D


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

I am not argueing with any of you,

Everyone has there beliefs, i just havent researched enough information as yet 

Thus if you want to help (as that is what the site is for) you could direct me to further information on the topic. 

D


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## azza74 (Oct 30, 2006)

hey good idea, im going to get my python detoothed, monitors declawed so i can play with them all day and wont get scratched!!!!! heck there goes my staffys teeth, hes much safer now...

if kids want to see a venomus snake up close, go to a reptile park, ya get up real close and they are behind class, so the kids are safe and the snake keeps its glands. they dont need to touch the snake to learn about it...


that it may be painless(its got to have some effect, or hes qualified, or they need them or not, or kids need to get up close to them(yeah thats real important)... the fact is its not for the animals benifet... its unnesecarry....



ps. these days a lot of people dont get circumcised for the same reason (no real reason, just wash ya wang better btw mines been chopped so im not biased


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

Did not need to know about your wang though the information is certainly appreciated.

Getting there, just finished reading some of the pro-venomoid responses


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## Aussie Python Lover (Oct 30, 2006)

lol now where did the wang talk come into it lol whether the snake is harmless or not it shouldnt be done and should be classed as cruelty to animals.... im sure there are better ways to scientiffically find out the info thats need then to remove such gland


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## Australis (Oct 30, 2006)

What Science?? Its about Money and Ego nothing more


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

Australis, chill out dude, i just said that i would read it for myself to understand the reasoning behind it. If i havent read the literature, how would you expect someone to make an informed descision. 

This isnt the first guy to be doing this procedure. so i dont know if ergo is entirely his drive. this procedure has been around for a long time

Money i can understand, and exploiting people curiosity yeah


Geez Luieeez


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## jordo (Oct 30, 2006)

Kali I couldn't agree more.
And btw if snakes NEED there venom to digest food why would Rays snakes still be alive?


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## ill_bill (Oct 30, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> It mustnt be illegal otherwise he wouldnt be doing it



HAHA That's like saying people don't deal drugs


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## jordo (Oct 30, 2006)

Heres a link to Hosers papers for anyone who wants a read...
http://www.smuggled.com/pap1.htm


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## moosenoose (Oct 30, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> moose: comeon dont take the quotes out of context, read the rest of the sentence, without reading all of the information concerning what he is doing is ignorant.



Me, out of context? Never :lol: 

I'm not wanting to start a heated debate on the whole thing, I'd just like to bring to peoples attention that such practices exist in this country, without even the slightest raised eyebrow from the likes of the RSPCA and the DSE. 

Dr Bryan Frys signature is reason enough for me to sign it, let alone the other well known herpers who think this practice, if it must continue, and I dare say there wouldn't be too many on there who'd like to see it continue, is at least performed by a qualified and competent vet.

What are the ramifications that "he who should not be mentioned" stuffs up an operation and hands some unsuspecting child a partially functional ven??? It is documented somewhere that Elapids have the potential to regenerate venom glands had they not been fully removed. 

Anyway, all I can say to people is read the reasoning behind the petition - I didn't organize it by the way - and make an informed decision about it


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## junglepython2 (Oct 30, 2006)

RodSydAus said:


> wtihout being disrespectful stokedappollo I actually think the opposite to you in respect to letting kids get near a venomous snake. I think it would just give kids a false sense of security having handled a devenomed snake. Can you imagine them coming across the snake in its natural form under other circumstances and thinking "oh yeah i played with one of them once its harmless" :shock:
> They can get close to a venomus snake without mutilating the snake, it just means they see all the safety precautions that should be taken and due respect given to an animal that could literally kill them.




Couldn't agree more, and if for whateva reason you had to have kids touching them use a python. Kids aren't going to gain anything from handling a ven other then a false sense of security.


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

ill bill, good example mate, i guess you can just jump online and find out everything you need to know about your local dealer, and how i can go about getting those drugs.

here is another paper on venomoids

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/55

the article makes a pretty convincing pro-venomoid argument. 

We do castrate dogs, for our own purposes, the list of things that are considered ethical is quite large..

Furthermore, Venomous snakes utilise venom in the natural world in order to feed etc. in the captive environment, this is not the case. They do not need to kill and capture prey that way, therefore rendering the venom capability useless. 

Thus, it comes to a cost benefit ratio

Does the benefit of showing children up close what a venomous snake is all about worth the cost of the procedure? IMO no, it is not warranted. Children probably should be educated to know that they should leave all wild snakes alone, including the non-venomous ones (not that really ever applies) Use a python/ retic

Does the benefit of using venomoids in zoos to aid handlers safety warrant the cost of the procedure? IMO No, the handler should know what they are doing. 

This is the real tricky one
Does the benefit of having a venomoid for home warrant the cost? IMO, though i love to handle my snakes up close etc, i dont think that i could bring myself to do this to one, out of pure pasion for the animal and species. But that is me and i can understand how other would warrant it, for what ever personal reason they may have. I wouldnt like to do it, just as i dont like keeping my snakes in small enclosures. I would prefer to learn to handle the animal as nature intended it.

Man i have read enough on that for one afternoon, better get back to this essay. 

Its been a learning experience, i can understand why some would want it, but i certainly wouldnt i dont think that the benefits are there above the costs. 

Thus in closing, i am against the process for the reasons that he is promulgating it. I can not see it as a benefit at all. 

D


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## SlothHead (Oct 30, 2006)

Moose you are right, 

One of the articles that i just read refered to procedures not being completed properly thus leaving a venomous 'venomoid' 

The next bit of information i would like to see now, and maybe someone can help me with this bit, is 

WHY isnt anything being done about it in terms of RSPCA, i.e. how is it being sold to them for it to continue. 

Maybe it is the sad case of the poor elapid is not a soft fury cuddly creature

annoying much

D


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## bigguy (Oct 30, 2006)

I have been displaying deadly snakes in schools for the past 16 years. They are never handled in front of the students, rather housed in simple viewing boxes. Kids leave my show with greatly reduced fear, replaced with the utmost repect. Do my shows save both human and reptile lives?? Well someone must think I am doing okay as I have won the NSW performer of the year 8 years running. Still waiting to see any of Ray's awards.

The petition is to stop the ILLEGAL practice of Ray's backyard butchery. If you think it is legal just ask any vet. Most vets are up in arms about his rather cruel practice.

Can anyone please show me where Ray has the backing of the Vic Government re his practice of butchering snakes. I have'nt seen anything yet.

Snake venom is primarily a modified siliva, secondly for hunting and defence. In my opinion it is needed for digestion. Removing the glands will effect the digestion, but will it effect the long term health, we will have to see.


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## da_donkey (Oct 30, 2006)

110% in agreeance with you Bob.


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## stokedapollo (Oct 30, 2006)

*venomoids*



RodSydAus said:


> wtihout being disrespectful stokedappollo I actually think the opposite to you in respect to letting kids get near a venomous snake. I think it would just give kids a false sense of security having handled a devenomed snake. Can you imagine them coming across the snake in its natural form under other circumstances and thinking "oh yeah i played with one of them once its harmless" :shock:
> They can get close to a venomus snake without mutilating the snake, it just means they see all the safety precautions that should be taken and due respect given to an animal that could literally kill them.


i see your point rod 
i still think wen showing venomous snakes to children use venomoids but still handle them as if they wernt so kids get close to see but no chance of an accidental bite
and ps no disrespect taken


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## cris (Oct 30, 2006)

I love this arguement that after they have been shown a venomous snake and allowed to touch it that they will go and die from snakebite it seems pretty weak to me for a few reasons.

Firstly most ppl wouldnt have a clue how to accurately tell the differance between differant snakes, just recently someone mistook a death adder as a blue tounge, so should we stop kids from looking at and touching blue tounges?
Should we stop ppl from going near olive and water pythons because they may look like brown snakes? 
Should we not let kids touch a green tree snake or tell them its harmless because it could be confused for a variety of elapids?

The obvious answer is no, you tell them to leave everything alone full stop. From what i have heard this is what Ray teaches them(correct me if im wrong)

As for afew other things said.


ando611 said:


> Without their venom glands they cannot digest their food properly.



Well there is no evidence to suggest that is true at all with australian(possibly all) elapids. Other snakes it does effect but that is not relevant to this issue at all.



azza74 said:


> the reason its wrong is because a snake is being mutilated just so it can be kept as a pet!!!!



That is a completely differant issue did you even read what this is about?



We Have It All said:


> This is an extreme ethical debate, one which could go on for years and without knowing all of the information, i think that signing the petition is being ignorant.



Well everyone is ignorant regarding most things, but i do think alot of ppl are ignorant of the subject before signing but definately not everyone.





cris said:


> 4. They want to sign it without knowing what is going on to keep with the crowd.


Im not sure how the first half of the sentence applies to you but you sure do prove the second half Moosenoose


moosenoose said:


> Dr Bryan Frys signature is reason enough for me to sign it, let alone the other well known herpers who think this practice, if it must continue, and I dare say there wouldn't be too many on there who'd like to see it continue, is at least performed by a qualified and competent vet.



Also moosenoose as for the post op pain i would rather someone bash me once in my life than have push me around everyday for the rest of it.



We Have It All said:


> an experiment was devised to test this herd mentality, and at an environmentalist function, a couple of aptly looking people were assigned to petition against the collection, distribution, and use of H2O. After recieving a convincing little speal from the young lady, they found 98 out of the 100 people surveyed at this function signed the petition.
> 
> Only two people caught on and realised, H2O is water.
> D



:lol: its so funny cos its true and also very sad at the same time  a large portion of the greenies or so called environmentalists are still opposed to the only realistic solution to climate change.



We Have It All said:


> WHY isnt anything being done about it in terms of RSPCA, i.e. how is it being sold to them for it to continue.
> 
> Maybe it is the sad case of the poor elapid is not a soft fury cuddly creature
> 
> D



There are not a destrucive pest species either so they fail on all critearia.


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## timthevet (Oct 31, 2006)

Firstly, as with anything on the internet, I would be wary of any claims made on his site (eg. success rates). It would be ridiculous for anyone to be performing such a procedure with no proper studies performed (confidence intervals of success rates and methodology with appropriate numbers in the study to make it valid and reviewed by professionals in the field)

In terms of anaesthetic protocol - his methods are outdated and risky compared to modern methods. Reptiles should be kept at preferred body temperature whilst under anaesthesia and given appropriate drugs to provide sedation and pain relief. Cardinal signs should be monitored and attended to as necessary by an experienced anaesthetist and oxygen provided.

Boiling is a poor form of sterilisation.

The procedure would cause pain. Snakes do feel pain - that is why if you step on one, it will react. Pain is shown in many different ways. Pain relief post operation would be necessary.

Finally, on the topic of devenomizing in general - the procedure can still end with a venomous snake so they wouldn't be beneficial for allowing inexperienced handlers to hold. And if venemoid snakes are given/sold to people that are inexperienced on the basis that they are not venomous - they could lead to fatalities.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 31, 2006)

The petition is NOT about venomoids in general.It doesn't even touch on the pros or cons of such an operation.

The petition was created because it is ILLEGAL to perform such procedures without the appropriate qualifications and the crudeness in the method used.

As to the question asked earlier in this thread about why the authorities haven't yet come down on him I don't know but hopefully once the petition gets presented to the powers that be then they might in fact stop this guy from butchering these animals once and for all.

EDIT - I might also add for those who think there is not much of a problem take a look on the petition site at the Official Supporters list.The are some very well known professional herpetologists supporting the petition.For those that think a sheep mentality is behind most people signing think again.


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## cris (Oct 31, 2006)

timthevet said:


> The procedure would cause pain. Snakes do feel pain - that is why if you step on one, it will react. Pain is shown in many different ways. Pain relief post operation would be necessary.



a bit of the subject but how is pain shown?


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## Hickson (Oct 31, 2006)

It's nice to see so many people having an enthusiastic discussion, with opposite views, and not resorting to name calling an nastiness.

I signed the petition a while ago for a variety of reasons, one of which is that I belive it is ethically wrong. If it was in the name of science that would be a different matter, as scientific research has structure and discipline (and usually an Animal Ethics and Welfare Committee to sign off on the research).

Just two other points:

RE: venom aiding in digestion - not entering the debate one way or the other but I can add something to the mix. In zoos, long-term captive or captive-bred venomous snakes that accidentally bite their keepers often give them a dry bite, a bite with no venom. They appear to be able to control whether they inject or not. The theory is that because there is no need to inject venom in captivity (as the food is served dead), they don't bother injecting anymore. This would suggest that venom is not necessary for digestion. And anyway, pythons and boas don't have venom and they don't have any problems digesting. 

And secondly:


We Have It All said:


> an experiment was devised to test this herd mentality, and at an environmentalist function, a couple of aptly looking people were assigned to petition against the collection, distribution, and use of H2O. After recieving a convincing little speal from the young lady, they found 98 out of the 100 people surveyed at this function signed the petition.
> 
> Only two people caught on and realised, H2O is water.



This is because the chemical was not described as H2O, but as Dihydrogen monoxide, a serious environmental threat (major component of acid rain, used in nuclear reactors, contributes to soil erosion) and responsible for many human deaths each year through inhalation. As a gas it causes severe burns, in solid form burns can result from prolonged contact. See http://www.dhmo.org/

This wasn't herd mentality (although I'm sure part of it was), it was more a marketing ploy to bamboozle the crowd.



Hix


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## timthevet (Oct 31, 2006)

I will certainly be doing more than signing the petition to stop this guy. There is a reason for the years of study required to perform anaesthetics and surgery. And as outlined above there is a reason for experiments to be passed through ethical commitess to ensure they are humane and have a benefit that outweighs any costs.
In regard to snakes feeling pain - pain triggers the sympathetic nervous system leading to physiological changes such as increased heart rate, respiratory rate, dilated pupils, urination, defecation and salivation although these are expressed to a varying degree depending on the individual and the circumstances. Behavioural changes are many and can include any abnormal behaviour such as loss of appetite, depression, abnormal motion, tensed muscles etc.
Also this has no relation to desexing cats and dogs as this has many health benefits to these animals such as reducing testicular disease (cancer, torsions, infection etc.), prostate disease, uterine disease, ovarian disease, increased susceptibility to FIV, and overall desexed cats and dogs have a proven longer life expectancy.


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## azza74 (Oct 31, 2006)

good one chris, 
keeping as pets( as in being kept by people, whether they will be displayed or not) and he was talking about venimoids being kept by people other then himself, thats why he bought up the fact of other handlers being bitten and tougther legislation.. 

heres another quote ya missed, 


azza74 said:


> if kids want to see a venomus snake up close, go to a reptile park, ya get up real close and they are behind glass, so the kids are safe and the snake keeps its glands. they dont need to touch the snake to learn about it...
> 
> 
> that it may be painless(its got to have some effect, or hes qualified, or they need them or not, or kids need to get up close to them(yeah thats real important)... the fact is its not for the animals benifet... its unnesecarry....


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## azza74 (Oct 31, 2006)

i should have said " kept by other people as well as himself" as apposed to "kept by people other then himself"


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## moosenoose (Oct 31, 2006)

cris said:


> Also moosenoose as for the post op pain i would rather someone bash me once in my life than have push me around everyday for the rest of it.



Sorry, I don't get it?


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## stokedapollo (Oct 31, 2006)

well moose most vens get picked up using tools(not sure wat they are called)dont they
no venom means they can be handled with the hands 
i think thats wat he ment


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## cris (Oct 31, 2006)

stokedapollo said:


> well moose most vens get picked up using tools(not sure wat they are called)dont they
> no venom means they can be handled with the hands
> i think thats wat he ment



yep


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## moosenoose (Oct 31, 2006)

stokedapollo said:


> well moose most vens get picked up using tools(not sure wat they are called)dont they
> no venom means they can be handled with the hands
> i think thats wat he ment



Oh I see  

Did I mention that I am pushing heavily for the public tolerability and approval of battery hens?? Simply because it makes life easier for the egg companies and saves them big dollars! Why go free range? They are only chickens for Pete’s sake! :lol:


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## heljon (Oct 31, 2006)

*can i have a go*

Guys anyone that agrees with this practise pm me and come for a visit. I'm pretty handy with a knife got a length of 4x2 and I think I'd make a damn good doc, come on if its good eough for the snakes give it a bash I promise I'll be gentle.


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## Dottles (Oct 31, 2006)

well put heljon.. will you put us in the fridge first though to help slow us down?


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## heljon (Oct 31, 2006)

well I dont want you movin around you might bite


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## Dottles (Oct 31, 2006)

good thinking.. now have you got a few nails and some stuff to tie us down with.. you know all that medical hygienic stuff just like the 4x2..


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## heljon (Oct 31, 2006)

yeah got a medical type nail gun fast action just like rippin a bandaid, and the oxy cleans those wounds right up no more infections.
come on boys I had no takers yet.


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## stokedapollo (Oct 31, 2006)

lol guys
moose im not agreeing with the practise either lol 
i can see some good points for it but the bad points out way it a million to one
i was just pointing out wat cris ment lol


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## moosenoose (Oct 31, 2006)

Nah that's cool, I'm not pointing fingers or telling anyone they should or shouldn’t sign it. 

The funniest thing, speaking about a herd mentality, is what I see as a “modern day” herd mentality trend, which happens to be a group of people who love turning their backs on reason and going about everything the hard way only to find that what they’ve been protesting about was correct all along!  ……“but I had to test it out for myself!!” Thus, I’m calling the current generation: The Small Print Generation!  Safe, unwilling to listen, but Wise just the same  :lol:


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## caustichumor (Oct 31, 2006)

Unnessesary surgery. All australian reptiles are protected animals, The only medical procedure that should be allowed to be performed on them is to rectify an existing medical problem or in the aquisition of venom for the anti-venom program. And thats it as far as I know they are not to be used as lab test animals!


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## stokedapollo (Oct 31, 2006)

i think its each to there own really
and yeah caustic scientific or medical is prob the best 
oh and moose i know ya not pointing fingers 
ya cant do that through a computer pmsl
one thing about this site that i have found is with this particular issue 
there hasnt been any name calling or agression(sp)
other sites i have seen man 
they just go off at each other 
here it seems every person has there opinion and people seem to respect that
well done for not attacking each other guys


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## SlothHead (Oct 31, 2006)

It is good to see people with such technical skills getting on this site and giving their opinion. 

So thanks to those that made themselves available for technical advice, Vets etc. 

Well i just signed it three times. me the wife and our biggest snake. just have to make some more email addresses now.

There is definantly an overbearing cost associated that is not outweighed by the very subjective benefits recieved.

Have a good day

D


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## martyn_tann (Oct 31, 2006)

hey. i signed it ages ago when i first came on i think... i'm not sure if i read it or herd it but i think he actually does use anasthetic (or/but probably not) and cuts from the back of the head... consequently the snake also dies after a few years... not to mention parading venoms around for pple and children to play with that have no idea of the potential dangers... or am i thinking of annother person who does this?
either way i disagree. so i'll sign it again


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## jordo (Oct 31, 2006)

martyn_tann said:


> hey. i signed it ages ago when i first came on i think... i'm not sure if i read it or herd it but i think he actually does use anasthetic (or/but probably not) and cuts from the back of the head... consequently the snake also dies after a few years... not to mention parading venoms around for pple and children to play with that have no idea of the potential dangers... or am i thinking of annother person who does this?
> either way i disagree. so i'll sign it again



No, 
- I haven't heard that he uses anasthetic.
- he makes the incision from the roof of the mouth.
- the snakes are still alive to this day

As for the whole children thing everyone is saying if a young child handles a python they will think its alright to hold any snake, therefore it is the parents responsibility to teach them they can not pick up a wild snake. If parents don't want their kids to handle venomoids then they can prevent it to begin with.


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## Ramsayi (Nov 1, 2006)

jordo said:


> No,
> - I haven't heard that he uses anasthetic.
> - he makes the incision from the roof of the mouth.
> - the snakes are still alive to this day
> ...



-He acknowledges that he uses no anesthetic,only cooling.
-Incisions are made through the roof of the mouth
-As far as the snakes are still alive today you only have the guys word for it,same as for only having successes with no failures etc etc.

Perhaps another way to look at it.
I would be reasonably certain that the venomoids in question would be on the guys books as tigers,browns,taipans etc.So a question for all you licensed ven keepers in Victoria.

What are your license conditions with regard to handing out vens to children and adults with no ven keeping experience?


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## Australis (Jan 13, 2007)




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## adds76 (Jan 13, 2007)

signed it


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## Oxyuranus microlepid (Jan 13, 2007)

i think thats sick.

i signed


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## DameJacquie (Jan 13, 2007)

Signed it.

Thats just not natural.


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## junglist* (Feb 14, 2007)

I just remembered the email posted yesterday. Ray makes a pretty good argument for the use of venomoids as he uses them, and frankly, i cant see the problem with it. Its obviously not a widespread practice, and just because he has animals that the procedure was carried out upon years ago, has got to say something for the overall well being of the snakes in question.

the situation has got to be looked at objectively, and as an educational tool, id agree with limited numbers of individual animals being used, specifically to reduce risk to the general public.


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## DragonKeeper (Feb 14, 2007)

It's not really what he does... It's how he does it.

Eg. Without a license or anesthesia. It is torture! Like taking the voice box from a dog to stop barking so all it can do is wheeze! or cutting the teeth and claws off of cats!


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## junglist* (Feb 14, 2007)

DragonKeeper said:


> It's not really what he does... It's how he does it.
> 
> Eg. Without a license or anesthesia. It is torture! Like taking the voice box from a dog to stop barking so all it can do is wheeze! or cutting the teeth and claws off of cats!



but if he pioneered the technique under observation by veterinarians, then the matter is moot. I that happened years ago, and people keep using emotive arguments to keep the prejudice going. 

I think the word you were looking for was did. not does, as far as my research into it goes, he doesn't perform the op any more. But he did pioneer the technique now used by american vets, so he must have a fair bit of credibility and experience. 

anesthetics were apparently used anyway.

Do you know specifics about what was done?? Or do you have evidence about the emotive things you suggest?? Or are you just functioning on misinformation??

Cats shouldnt be given the chance to do anything anyway. They should all be killed and fed to pythons at birth. That way you dont have to cut their teeth and claws off.


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## Australis (Feb 14, 2007)

Junglist*

Its you thats "functioning on misinformation".

Your claiming he pioneered the technique now used by American vets.

Would you care to name these American vets using no post operation anesthetics, elastic bands, nails and timber "technique?

"but if he pioneered the technique under observation by veterinarians"

There is no evidence that any vet was involved with Hosers operations, which is why he hasnt been able to name one!


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## RevDaniel (Feb 14, 2007)

i will sign this. I think if should have much more respect for out wildlife


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## aww yeah (Feb 14, 2007)

what hes doing is totally wrong for many reasons.

if he wants to show kids snakes and teach them about them he should use pythons.

if he really wants to show them venomous snakes then he could use them in conjunction with pythons and have the pythons out and the vens in enclosures or something where the kids can see them but they cant get out.

the kids may as already stated get a false sense of security and think that they are not as dangerous 

why do the kids need to see vs anyway, to most school kids any snake is as cool as any other snake and for the ones who are really interested they probably have their own anyway.

onto the snakes
it doesnt benifit them in any way then it shouldnt be done.
people should think that if they wouldnt like it done to them then they shouldnt do it to an animal
theyre venomous for a reason, its natural, its special and thats the way they were made. they are supposed to be venomous the same way pythons are not. if he really loved snakes he would love them for the way they are supposed to be and would respect them for their natural way and not want to change them. he obviously doesnt love them or he wouldnt be doing this.

oh and IMO it should be illegal. what a loser.


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## -Peter (Feb 14, 2007)

junglist* said:


> but if he pioneered the technique under observation by veterinarians, then the matter is moot. I that happened years ago, and people keep using emotive arguments to keep the prejudice going.
> 
> I think the word you were looking for was did. not does, as far as my research into it goes, he doesn't perform the op any more. But he did pioneer the technique now used by american vets, so he must have a fair bit of credibility and experience.
> 
> ...



Im not sure what cats have to do with the issue

As the allegations made in the post are intrinsic to the arguement i feel that if this post is to be cut then the post I am replying to should also be cut.
Thanks


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## junglist* (Feb 14, 2007)

ok, after reading a large amount of his publications, i still am yet to be convinced that anything wrong was done. 

i dont know if you saw the response to the trolling email someone posted from this site, but he makes very convincing and logical arguments. 

Personally, when you manage to have an amount of published articles as long as his then you get to criticise, until then, maybe getting the full story would be a good idea.

cats have to do with the issue because some fool thought that a reference to removing a larynx in a dog, and a claws and teeth in cats was a good analogy to use.

I can see that the two sides of the argument are probably not perfect, but in terms of scientific method,and good quality research, hoser seems to know the score, irrespective of who he is as a person. 

Ive never met him, so i cant begin to comment on those parts of some of the allegations, but in terms of good research, and documented research, he's on point.

personal gripes have always been unfortunately part of being an academic. But quite frankly, the amount of papers published, and the variety should indicate that eh is a wealth of knowledge.

As for the pain mitigation part of the argument, it is also arguable that refrigeration has the same effect. Pain mitigation would be difficult in a circumstance like such, but the fact that he fed some of these snakes almost immediately afterwards to me indicates either a much higher pain threshold (especially in the head region) or the fact that the reptilian brain does not process pain in the same way that we as humans do. This is not unexpected, as although we too exhibit the reptilian brain areas, we have two further areas of development. With respect to the use of anesthetics, i had not finished reading the paper, and saw only the initial references to anesthetising the snakes before surgery.

I almost see this situation similar to the mulesing argument that PETA fools claim is barbaric to sheep, and the majority of them will have ever seen a fly blown sheep. If he DID this to his display animals only, then there should be no problem with it. He has actively reduced the public liability of betting bitten, and so therefore has made the shows, which he does tell people in never to go chasing a wild snake, much safer for the general public. Considering how healthy the snakes he has performed the operation upon seem, its is questionable as to there being any adverse health implications from the surgery.

As far as pioneering the surgery, his paper ndicates, as does the referenced paper, that previous methods had used external incision rather than internal incision, and so the claim does seem to be valid.


Lets not forget that he was a very active campaigner to keep the hobby alive, and that while you may not like him, or 100% approve of his actions, he's probably got many more years of experience with reptiles than any of us here on this forum.

ARP used to have venomoids as well, so the possession of the animals, nor their surgery for reducing public risk during display is not a condition restricted to mr hoser.

All of this being said, were i to keep hots, i would not have this procedure performed. Considering that my goal is to move into natural products/medicinal chemistry using venoms from many of australia's hots, it would be counter productive to perform said operations.

As to the perjury issue, i can't shed any light except to say that the exposition of major police corruption in victoria cannot have made the man very many friends at all.

Maybe, just maybe, such a valuable resource and experienced person should not be discarded out of hand so readily.


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## DragonKeeper (Feb 14, 2007)

junglist* said:


> I almost see this situation similar to the mulesing argument that PETA fools claim is barbaric to sheep, and the majority of them will have ever seen a fly blown sheep.



It may be slightly off topic but... That is absolutely right, I hate PETA They will probably never see the effects of fly strike! They think it's more humane to let a sheep be eaten alive from the inside out until there is nothing left but organs skin and bones, and then the poor sheep finally dies, then cutting a tiny patch of skin off of the sheeps a.s.s!

THEY NO NOTHING!

**EDIT** THEY KNOW NOTHING! <<<Oops!


And don't call me a fool!


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## junglist* (Feb 14, 2007)

i didnt call you a fool. but its KNOW.


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## DragonKeeper (Feb 14, 2007)

Yes you did:



junglist* said:


> cats have to do with the issue because some *fool* thought that a reference to removing a larynx in a dog, and a claws and teeth in cats was a good analogy to use.


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## dragons75 (Feb 14, 2007)

Signed it sent it and printed it out to get everyone from work involved


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## MoreliaMatt (Feb 14, 2007)

when will people get over this?


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## nuthn2do (Feb 14, 2007)

Wow, i just can't believe that anyone would support such a inhumane act.

They show no pain? 
Anyone that has any experience with any animal would know that the slightest sign of pain is a precursor to a voilent death from predators.


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## Australis (Feb 14, 2007)

Junglist*

Im still intrested to hear what American Vets you claim are using Hosers methods? or dont you actually know? perhaps none?

And who was the Vet you claim was present while Hoser performed his ops? Surely you know? or again actually none?




junglist* said:


> ARP used to have venomoids as well, so the possession of the animals, nor their surgery for reducing public risk during display is not a condition restricted to mr hoser.




You cannot compare the voided snakes the ARP had, which is exactly why the petition isnt against venomoids, simply Raymond Hosers methods, have you read the petition at all?

If you honestly think Hosers methods are comparable to how the ARP had their animals voided, you really have no clue.


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## buck (Feb 14, 2007)

junglist* said:


> .
> Personally, when you manage to have an amount of published articles as long as his then you get to criticise, until then, maybe getting the full story would be a good idea.
> 
> I guess being editor of a publication generally helps out with getting papers published in that publication.
> ...


.


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## Australis (Feb 14, 2007)

Buck,

You make a very good point, Venomoid wouldnt be the best term for a Venomous snake who still produces Venom, but cant deliver it.


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## Oskorei (Feb 14, 2007)

gee leave the man alone and get a life. unless you know 100% of what happens with him and his snakes, get over it


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## jessop (Feb 14, 2007)

spent a lot of time reading this thread and researching other sites.... i tried to be as objective about the issue as i could.

in the end i signed the petition, not out of ignorance, but out of compassion for all wildlife. Rays method is crude and could further be described as cruel. this is not a practice i would like to see continued... i hope he gets his a**e kicked over it, he is no vet/surgeon, more like a backyard butcherer thinks i! JA!


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## Oskorei (Feb 14, 2007)

jessop said:


> more like a backyard butcherer thinks i! JA!




Mate i am a butcher and i take offence to that.... unless you are saying his cuts are clean straight and perfect and of good quality!


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## jessop (Feb 14, 2007)

*.*

_*"Mate i am a butcher and i take offence to that.... unless you are saying his cuts are clean straight and perfect and of good quality"-Oskorei

*_*:lol: 

Well i certainly hope you don't do your butchering in your own backyard... 

No offense intended mate, i merely used the term "backyard butcherer" as a euphemism for a crude hack surgery job... In no way was my intention to offend all the butchers out there LOL! It amazes me how people can take a commonly used term to heart  Jeez i better stop posting on this site cause i might offend someone else :twisted:
*


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## phoenix (Feb 14, 2007)

What is the truth.??...I have read so much on this lately and really I dont know which way to go...so I be happy just to let others battle it out...and I will stick with my own reptiles....either way I like my elapids with the bite...lol


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## da_donkey (Feb 14, 2007)

phoenix said:


> What is the truth.??...I have read so much on this lately and really I dont know which way to go...so I be happy just to let others battle it out...and I will stick with my own reptiles....either way I like my elapids with the bite...lol


 
Must be nice and comfy on that fence Phoenix:lol: 


donk


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## phoenix (Feb 14, 2007)

yes it is thankyou.......


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 14, 2007)

i signed it when i first got on this forum, i went with the crowd. but after seeing both sides i regret signing it now. the point im trying to make is before you sign anything get both sides of the story before you make your final decision. its all to easy to make onesided judgements.


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## phoenix (Feb 14, 2007)

like i said i could not make out the truth so to be fair i didnt sign...sorry for not being sheep..


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 14, 2007)

DragonKeeper said:


> It's not really what he does... It's how he does it.
> 
> Eg. Without a license or anesthesia. It is torture! Like taking the voice box from a dog to stop barking so all it can do is wheeze! or cutting the teeth and claws off of cats!



you have to start from somewhere, humans started surgical procedures without anesthetic. just look at the old dental procedures!


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## da_donkey (Feb 14, 2007)

Dental and medical proceedures are done out of necseity.

There is absoulutly no reason whatsoever for his behaviour:evil: 


Donk


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## Oskorei (Feb 14, 2007)

i am not signing it as the person in question has some good solid arguments for every point that you people put to him and when this was posted on the board from a APS member that got it as a reply to emails to him it was taken down.. why did the mods take that thread down which explained the procedure and claims against him yet dont take down this slanderous thread against him? seems a bit unfair for me and everyone should just drop it... if he was really doing anythign illegal and against the animals dont you think that the wildlife service woudl take him down and put him up for charges... honestly how many complaints would they get about him, and if they have followed them up why is he his business still running and he still alowed to keep reptiles.. i would say cause they have found that he hasnt done anything wrong

Mick


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## phoenix (Feb 14, 2007)

Thats what I would like too know...with all the people against why hasnt RSPCA or NPWS done something about it...thats what I want to know........


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## Oskorei (Feb 14, 2007)

maybe they havent done anything to him because they cannot see that he has done anything wrong... hence this is all sladerous and creating more people whom have no idea jumping on the bandwagon!


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## moosenoose (Feb 14, 2007)

Have a read Mick (Oskorei): http://www.smuggled.com/VenSur6.htm

I personally have said nothing slanderous against the man and probably the main reason this thread has remained. I don't need to be abusive or slanderous to say I whole-heartedly disagree with the way in which he has obtained these animals! It's by Hosers own "proud and boastful" admissions on his site that stick him right in the thick of it. Certainly they are also the sort of admissions I'd be less than proud of advertising.

Take this next quote for example (as one of many on his site):



> *WHO SHOULD PERFORM VENOMOID SURGERY ON SNAKES*
> 
> As a procedure it is remarkably simple and while it would be generally advised that a qualified veterinary surgeon perform the operation, this is not necessarily essential or for that matter the most important requirement.


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## -Peter (Feb 14, 2007)

The only place where you can find support for Hoser is on his site or from people who quote directly from him. He has no supporters with any knowledge beyond what they have read on his site.
I am yet to see one respected scientist or herpetologist defend him yet many signed the petition. Read through it an check the names.
As to the claim he has done nothing wrong, that is a false statement. He has in fact broken the law but the DSE in Victoria will not act against him. You need to ask them why.


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## cris (Feb 14, 2007)

phoenix said:


> What is the truth.??...I have read so much on this lately and really I dont know which way to go...so I be happy just to let others battle it out...and I will stick with my own reptiles....either way I like my elapids with the bite...lol



Yes i would rather make up my mind based on the truth rather than assume or believe BS on the internet, I believe venomoids are OK in some cases for eg. trying to teach ppl not to kill snakes. I dont know how much pain the snakes felt or if the sugery is better than what happened to the snakes that were at the ARP, come to think of it i wonder where those snakes are now, they must be dead or in private collections :?

If i see some proof rather than just BS spread by Hoser's enemies that the snakes are suffering or dieing i would sign this petition atleast 50 times(thats what everyone else does isnt it?) Recent internet claims say his snakes are dying and being replaced all the time, this would be really easy to prove with the number of pictures of his snakes around. So we will have to wait and see.

also im not pro or anti Hoser, never met him and dont really care if i ever do. Any over the top pro Hoser crap written under the name "cris" is actually written by the anti hoser mob, kind of a stupid game they play pretending to be Ray pretending to be me, or pretending to be me being me :lol:


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## buck (Feb 14, 2007)

cris said:


> I dont know how much pain the snakes felt or if the sugery is better than what happened to the snakes that were at the ARP, come to think of it i wonder where those snakes are now, they must be dead or in private collections :?


 

I can't say for sure and maybe John might join in at some stage and perhaps confirm what happened but I would say that either they were wiped out during the fires that went throught the park in 2000 ,or wiped out during the OPMV outbreak they suffered while trying to restock the park from the fire.


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## nook171 (Feb 14, 2007)

i signed it


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## cris (Feb 15, 2007)

buck said:


> I can't say for sure and maybe John might join in at some stage and perhaps confirm what happened but I would say that either they were wiped out during the fires that went throught the park in 2000 ,or wiped out during the OPMV outbreak they suffered while trying to restock the park from the fire.



yeah your probably right


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## -Peter (Feb 15, 2007)

cris said:


> Yes i would rather make up my mind based on the truth rather than assume or believe BS on the internet, I believe venomoids are OK in some cases for eg. trying to teach ppl not to kill snakes. I dont know how much pain the snakes felt or if the sugery is better than what happened to the snakes that were at the ARP, come to think of it i wonder where those snakes are now, they must be dead or in private collections :?
> 
> If i see some proof rather than just BS spread by Hoser's enemies that the snakes are suffering or dieing i would sign this petition atleast 50 times(thats what everyone else does isnt it?) Recent internet claims say his snakes are dying and being replaced all the time, this would be really easy to prove with the number of pictures of his snakes around. So we will have to wait and see.
> 
> also im not pro or anti Hoser, never met him and dont really care if i ever do. Any over the top pro Hoser crap written under the name "cris" is actually written by the anti hoser mob, kind of a stupid game they play pretending to be Ray pretending to be me, or pretending to be me being me :lol:



So this is BS as well then?:?


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## Troy 1000 (Feb 15, 2007)

signed
I want to know how do they survive without or are they than put into captivity


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## moosenoose (Feb 15, 2007)

cris said:


> If i see some proof rather than just BS spread by Hoser's enemies that the snakes are suffering or dieing i would sign this petition atleast 50 times(thats what everyone else does isnt it?) Recent internet claims say his snakes are dying and being replaced all the time, this would be really easy to prove with the number of pictures of his snakes around. So we will have to wait and see.



I’m not concerned with the debate of whether they are dropping off like flies or not, but what I am concerned about and what everyone should be concerned about is the methods in which he creates these voids. Whether the animals are suffering or not is yet another argument. The point of the matter is this: there is no logic behind taking a scalpel to a perfectly healthy snake and render it harmless for the sake of parading it around in a “freak show”. I know the Jim Rose Circus can still get away with this sort of thing (displaying freaks), but their main fare is people…..people have a choice, animals don’t.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 15, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Dental and medical proceedures are done out of necseity.
> 
> There is absoulutly no reason whatsoever for his behaviour:evil:
> 
> ...



i wasnt trying to make the point that is it was a necseity. my point was human procedures started out in the same way. hunams once suffered through simple procedures and also humans took scalpels to other perfectly healthy humans. we started from somewhere, so do snake procedures.


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## Lucas (Feb 15, 2007)

Whitey, humans have teeth pulled due to medical needs. Cutting out glands in vens is for his own gain. There is no similarity between the two.


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## Aussie Python Lover (Feb 15, 2007)

Signed it also


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## Surfcop24 (Feb 15, 2007)

Nother signature added from me.....


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 15, 2007)

Lucas said:


> Whitey, humans have teeth pulled due to medical needs. Cutting out glands in vens is for his own gain. There is no similarity between the two.



once again i was not agueing the NEEDS, i was trying to say THERE IS SIMILARITY in the procedures done on snakes to human ones when we came out of caves and invented the wheel!  its the procedure that this thread is about and im trying to say we once had savage procedures done to us humans too!


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