# reptile sale slump???



## yommy (Feb 5, 2010)

It appears to be plenty of reptiles up for sale (as 'for sales' threads are dominating APS at the moment) and they seem to be more older animals then hatchies which is unusual for this time of year......

My question is: Has the past/present economic issues that has been effecting the world in general, finally catching up with our great hobby ???

Why does it appear that people are off loading their animals more and more recently ???

Food for thought..


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## Kurto (Feb 5, 2010)

I thought the economic trends caught up with the reptile industry a couple of seasons ago. Hence the drop in higher end prices, eg; greens, albinos, etc.

I've noticed a bit of a cycle in people selling of their impulse buys... Which is another reason why petshops shouldn't be aloud to sell reptiles..


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## Ozzie Python (Feb 5, 2010)

might be this time of year. people might still be recovering from xmas, holidays etc, i know i am. 

i sold hatchies easy before xmas, hardly getting an enquiry now, and those that i am getting since the new year are not turning into sales.


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## AUSGECKO (Feb 5, 2010)

Kurto said:


> Which is another reason why petshops shouldn't be aloud to sell reptiles..


 If your worried about impulse buying then maybe forums shouldn`t have for sale threads and classifieds sites should be banned..........

I think that the fact that there are more people breeding reptiles each season has contributed to a slump in reptile sales. Previous seasons i would get a few enquiries a week for each species that i had up for sale, but this season next to nothing. It seems as though the number of people wanting to get into the hobby is starting to plateau and the number of excess animals being bred by people for sale has caused people to start dropping their prices because they are not selling as well as they would have previous seasons.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2010)

I haven't spoken to a breeder or dealer lately that isn't experiencing a slow time moving their regular progeny.
Even in W.A, I am not ammune, As a W.A dealer I have cheapest Stimsons available in the state and I am still finding sales very slow compared all other seasons. Even the pet shops who regulary purchase of us have surplus stock and are telling me that they aren't selling alot of anything e.g. fish, birds etc.
Times for many out there are clearly getting tough and couple that with an over supply of reptiles from every man and his dog who has got into breeding for a hopeful profit, and prices fall and other bail out compounding the surplus. The only answer in my opinion is to expand the industry by the way of exposing this hobby to more keepers out there.


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## Ozzie Python (Feb 5, 2010)

seems the trend these days also for new keepers to start at the top and wanting albinos, gtp, womas rather than learning the hobby with the humble old antaresia or coastal. there are a lot of the basic reptiles being offered at the moment that don't seem to be moving. supply is now definately catching up to if not already overtaken demand.


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## Bushfire (Feb 5, 2010)

Obviously I can only speak for myself but selling stuff for the last 2 or so years has become very hard and I also have found myself caught up in the crisis and have lately off loaded more or more breeding stock to get by ie. reducing costs. Last yr I accidently got a coastal carpet clutch of 17 eggs, I incubated them with 16 hatching and after three months of trying to sell them dropping the price every week or so I could not sell them so came to the hard decision to freeze the lot, couldnt even move them at free to good home. These individuals I would say are about 'middle of the road' in terms of colour and pattern certainly not ulgy specimens but again not the hypos, RP, striped etc etc. This year Ive suspended all my breeding attempts on every reptile and all eggs found destoryed.

Its just the way it is, the market is way over supplied and potential buyers are straped for cash themselves. As a results buyers can afford to be extremely picky, picking up the 'top of the class' specimens at basement/throw away prices (who wouldnt, I did). No one is really to blame for the way it is, as always supply and demand at work. I suspect more and more breeders will do what Ive done if/when things get tougher.


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## AUSGECKO (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree with what Pilbara Pythons said, The industry definately needs to expand but i can`t see the demand catching up with the supply for a while yet. I`ve noticed quite a few people myslelf included, doing swaps for different reptiles as a resort to not having many enquiries that lead to a sale.


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## bigi (Feb 5, 2010)

i think its a combination of the industry slowing somewhat, less or not as many people buying compared to/and too many people breeding.
If the industry needs to expand, its clearly Victoria/Melbourne that has the largest growth potential. Compare Vic industry sales up against NSW or Qld. They are far more developed up north and numbers are strikingly greater.


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## DonnB (Feb 5, 2010)

Well if anyone else has anything they need to get ride of i may be persuaded to take them at no charge from you...


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## Bez84 (Feb 5, 2010)

lol same always looking to expand the collection just havent the funds to do so yet


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## ozziepythons (Feb 5, 2010)

I have noticed that over the last couple of seasons, trying to move on both older holdbacks and hatchies has been very slow. Even with very low prices just to move on a couple of snakes (for the need to make more room) barely generates a couple of enquiries. What factors are involved I do not know, but it takes a little more patience to finally move on those your willing to part with. I've just had a clutch of Murrays hatch and resigned to the idea I'll have them for quite a while before most of them sell. It is evident that many keepers are experiencing the same thing.


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## smudge (Feb 5, 2010)

The supply vs. demand argument is definately a valid and strong one but i think Pilbara really hit the nail on the head...



PilbaraPythons said:


> The only answer in my opinion is to expand the industry by the way of exposing this hobby to more keepers out there.



I live in a rather small town and have quickly become known to a lot of the locals as "the chick with the snakes". Most people who talk to me on this topic are often surprised at how easy it is to obtain a license and what a wide variety of species are available. We live in a time where the size of house blocks is getting smaller, the cost of living is getting higher and therefore we are working more hours, leaving less time, space and money for more common pets (dogs, cats...etc.). This, in my opinion is a great time to get our hobby out there... reptile prices are great, they don' t require a great deal of time and the upkeep costs are far less than your average dog.

Have sold a number of reptiles to families for these exact reasons, and now by word of mouth have people coming to me on a regular basis interested in buying reptiles off me.


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## craigryan (Feb 5, 2010)

I think if your animals are priced well for good stock you will always move good healthy animals. In the past because of a lack of supply animals were expensive and not alot were being bred, now there are alot of animals and you are able to get a bargain, so anyone wanting a bargain contact me.


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## montay (Feb 5, 2010)

I have followed this thread with interest. 
I think the issue here is to not panic about the ebb and flow in demand. 
As Dave from Pilbara Pythons said, the onus is on us, as keepers and breeders to actively promote the hobby as a viable alternative to more conventional pets. 
As a burgeoning hobby, that does not appeal to the masses, we have something of an obligation to promote and educate, perhaps from those of us who wish to breed our snakes either for profit, to fund our hobby, or for more altruistic reasons such as provenance.
I would like to hear more from the experienced breeders - what have your recent experiences been? What advice can you offer?


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## Elapidae1 (Feb 5, 2010)

Especially in WA i think the initial outlay on enclosures etc and the animal is a bit beyond a lot of peoples reach. I for one have a beardie setup and python enclosure ready to go but just can't afford to fill them at the moment .


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## unique (Feb 5, 2010)

Sale slump for average looking animals. 

god help this hobby when you can buy a jag for $200..normal carpets
just wont sell..most people just want a colorful pet... that's it...
have you seen the herp classifieds lately? jags for $1000.


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## ShaneBlack (Feb 5, 2010)

The fact is that most reptiles are easy to breed. Another fact is that the vast majority of people want to breed their reptiles. Not too many people buy single animals or two of the same sex.....everyone wants to buy pairs, even people who claim they dont want to breed lol.

Everyone wants to breed and make some extra money from the animals they love.....and why not, who can blame them? We're all doing it. As a result its only going to get harder and harder to move average animals. The solution......people need to get more selective about the animals they purchase and breed. The best animals will always sell easily.


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## paulaandnorbert (Feb 5, 2010)

The promotion of the keeping of reptiles as a pleasurable (but more importantly) realistic and possible past time is very important to the expansion of this community (and the increase in business for those of you that are involved! ).

Most people _assume _that the keeping of any reptiles is difficult and that they make horrible icky pets. Any opportunity to challenge these assumptions is important. I don't think that this forum is the best place for that because most visitors of this site are actively looking to buy a reptile.

As recent converts ourselves, we can say that for us, the local reptile show was unbelievably effective at swaying us to becoming reptile owners.

Less than twelve months ago we wandered into the local reptile show and the whole family was blown away! When we left, the only thing on our minds was that we needed to get some reptiles of our own!

And it has not taken us long for us to adopt a few of these fine critters in to our family. 

The more of these types of local community shows that can be put on, the more opportunities are created for these animals to 'sell' themselves!

By the way, we are looking forward to the next local reptile show in April! 


Norbert


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## Simon_Archibald (Feb 5, 2010)

Lots and lots of less experienced keepers breeding species that are prolific in the numbers they lay - especially the pythons and dragons. Lots of these animals are of average or substandard quality from what I've seen lately also.

Reading some of the threads on this and other sites makes me shudder at the abundance of inexperienced people giving advice (but I suppose this has always happened too).

And what the hell is a Freckled Bredli??? Wake up...


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## HOM3L3SS (Feb 5, 2010)

lol is a freckled bredli just a bredli with spots


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## The Devil (Feb 5, 2010)

unique said:


> Sale slump for average looking animals.
> 
> god help this hobby when you can buy a jag for $200..normal carpets
> just wont sell..most people just want a colorful pet... that's it...
> have you seen the herp classifieds lately? jags for $1000.



The so called "jags" on RDU for $1000 were not called jags for a reason.
The reason, they were NOT jags, just jungles with good stripes and hence they were called RPM's.
I saw some pics of the little ones and 1 of the parents the other day.


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## kupper (Feb 5, 2010)

sales have definantly slowed , but my industry has slowed rediculously as well 

i am pretty sure it has something to do with people spending too much during the christmas , New year period


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## spongebob (Feb 5, 2010)

So Australia is seeing the same dynamic that played out in Europe and the USA in the 90's.....a shift whereby the sellers start to equal the buyers so everyone gets fussy. I foresee the sale of much breeding stock in the coming months.....

Just look at what's going on overseas -a standard leopard gecko is almost the same cost as a feeder fish, whereas the top end colour morphs still attract interest.

It's time to get serious about breeding, and time to "to separate the wheat from the chaff" if you want to move herps. But of course you could still treat it as a hobby and just enjoy them!


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## dottyback (Feb 5, 2010)

In my opinion its simply 'the supply is outweighing the demand' Boyds Forest Dragons is a great example; There are plenty of breeders pumping them out, as they are on a higher class licence around the country there is only a small supply for them hence bringing down the price.

Also people are unrealistic with their prices, 1 month old Children’s pythons trying to be sold privately for $250... 

I do agree though that there are not as many ‘new comers’ to the hobby like years gone past.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been trying to sell standard animals recently with little or no luck, I have had the best interest in these sales from friends of friends who are new to the hobby. However I have also been selling more unusual animals with better patterns and colours and to date all animals advertised have been sold in minimal time and with little fuss.

From my recent experiences the market is calling for unusaul looking specimens, morphs etc etc


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## pythonmum (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm with smudge and Pilbara - build up the market by educating people. I'm a teacher and work my classroom snake into presentations as much as possible. I can assure you that there are plenty of young folks getting interested in the hobby - both male and female. They like the idea of a low-maintenance pet that you can interact with when you want and ignore when you want (aside from basic hygeine and feeding, of course). I've been approached by students wanting to buy snakes, so I refer them to the major websites including APS.


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## longqi (Feb 5, 2010)

We are finally reaching a point where supply exceeds demand

This is wonderful for buyers as our reptiles have always been grossly over valued
eg GTPs $10,000 while better GTPs in the USA were $500

Now we are reaching the point where reptiles can become household pets instead of being objects of awe left mouldering in a cage because they are too valuable to let anyone touch


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## AUSGECKO (Feb 5, 2010)

It would be interesting to find out from Slateman or Administrator what the sale of APS subscriptions and general hits on the site have been like in the last 12 months compared to previous years. I know that the retail sale of all reptile related products has dramatically suffered this season and i have been told by various wholesalers of these products that N.S.W has been hit hardest, but it seems to be the case with all pet products.


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## yommy (Feb 5, 2010)

All good points raised guy and girls. I can only see the current situation as a positive. 
As for all those who have gotten into the hobby to get the quick and big $$$$ may now need to reassess their motives, where as those who selectively breed just to cover expenses and possible better aquistions will be able to ride the current situation out. 

Fortuneatly depending on which way you view it, for me the wife isn't the biggest fan of reptiles (no one is perfect i guess  ) but she put a limit on my numbers, so in turn i've have gone the better top end species. So for me having a quality over quanity collection i can get by regardless whether i am breeding or not and at the end of the day its all about the reptiles not the quick $$$$$.

jmo


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## Bushfire (Feb 5, 2010)

One common trend Ive seen in the past has been when certain species / normal colour types hits a certain point in terms of pricing and availability, the breeders stop breeding them till there is more demand, they figure its not worth their effort putting pairs together as they dont want to be stuck with offspring. Now either the demand will never again be there or it will be, once people dry up the supply the demand returns. The race this creates is will there be enough demand there for the breeders to kick start their programs again before existing breeding stocks and existing genetic diversity become too old to breed and thus lost? Of course not every single breeder will stop breeding so there will be still some sort of supply but the masses will stop producing them. 

So will the current market and pricing follow this back and fore approach as its done in the past here in Australia? Or are we seeing the very start of a new era where in the future next to no interest will be shown in the common / normal type looking representatives of that species so demand will always be low, similar to USA (Im dangerous assuming here but I personally cant see that there will ever be a growing interest in the normal wild type looking Ball Python).

Wow thats abit heavy to pounder in one night lol.


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## markars (Feb 6, 2010)

> I know that the retail sale of all reptile related products has dramatically suffered this season and i have been told by various wholesalers of these products that N.S.W has been hit hardest, but it seems to be the case with all pet products.


 
Thats because for too long anything reptile related has been an excuse to gouge, rape and burn the consumer! 

The last few years have seen the popularity of the alternatives ( click clacks, electrical wholesalers for heating gear and globes and internet sales from overseas) grow and hence people stop the purchase of these items. The retailers and manufactures only have them selves to blame, If the prices (mark ups) of these items were not so high in the first place, people would not have to look for home made or cheaper alternatives. 

I personally have been buying from overseas for the last ten years and even when the aussie dollar was a pittance i still saved 50 percent compared to what was on offer in the local markets.

The of over supply of reptiles will see the prices undergo a long overdue "correction". A correction to what they should have always been. The sharp spike in reptile popularity bought about by the introduction of a licencing system in nsw brought a huge jump in prices and this has never been corrected, For too long the "bread and butter species: ( common locals and easily kept and bred) have been charged to people at atrocious prices which in turn has encouraged everey man and his dog to get into breeding and keeping as a business! ( i know drug dealers who look at us in envy lol ). 

If the prices of the beginner animals had remained or resettled back to their proper prices earlier perhaps the popularity amoungst new people would have grown and we would have seen a better expansion and cross over to main steam. parent has a choice of pet for their child : a kitten for thirty dollars or spend 500 dollars for a costal and set up- what are they going to take!

Reptiles seem to be the only commodity that the price increased once it came off the black market! Before the amnesty carpets were 80-100 dollars, olives and waters were 200, blueys were 20 ewd were 10!- All were captive bred not wc. I got a black head for 750 when there were only a few people who could breed them.

seems that the dream run is over- make em cheap and sell more.

sorry for the rant.


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## bk201 (Feb 6, 2010)

alot of breeders can only blame themselves like cmon breeding 200-400 beardies each per year what do you expect...and imagine in a few years every beardy will be closely related in someway with big breeders flooding the market.


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## yommy (Feb 6, 2010)

On a side note it would be interesting to hear how the Industry leaders/breeeders like SXR, URS and Snake Ranch are going and if it is effecting them as well as these groups have massive collections to maintain, may be some good bargain coming up in the next season or so. Shame i am at my number limit - damn wife 

Could be a good topic to cover in one of our two reptile magazine. 'Reptiles the future???'


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 6, 2010)

A good time to start this thread Yommy ,
Sales have slowed to a trickle for most people as far as i can tell.
And the reason for this ? I believe is because of the recession and also because the market is flooded with all species .
If you are producing something new or different ? in colours or patterns then your market is still out there although people are just not willing to pay the big money for reptiles as once was the case, unless its a spectacular reptile.
my 2 cents
cheers
Roger


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## Simon_Archibald (Feb 6, 2010)

Bushfire said:


> So will the current market and pricing follow this back and fore approach as its done in the past here in Australia? Or are we seeing the very start of a new era where in the future next to no interest will be shown in the common / normal type looking representatives of that species so demand will always be low, similar to USA (Im dangerous assuming here but I personally cant see that there will ever be a growing interest in the normal wild type looking Ball Python).



I do think this is happening already and its a big shame. The obsession that people have with breeding colour morphs, designer this and that just doesn't sit well with me at all. People compare the selective breeding of reptiles with similar practices for dogs/cats etc, but I cannot make that comparison. The difference to me lies in the fact that the species we are breeding are still all out there amongst the wild yonder. Natural colour variations serving a purpose for any particular species. You only have to look at the terrible looking GTPs that are being bred in USA and the bastardisation of species like the Ball Python to know what greed can do to people. Furthermore, breeders simply make up the names to the "morphs" they create, all in the interest of selling more to gullible keepers.

Not enough keepers in Australia have realised what a fantastic oppourtunity the WA licensing system has given us over the past few years. Here you have a system where registered takers are able to collect specimens of many species from the wild, record their location and other relevant data, then introduce these animals into the private market for breeding purposes. This allows breeding of locality-pure animals, bred in captivity as they would likely in the wild. Of all the "Tully", "Proserpine" Jungles, "Tanami" Womas, etc, can you guarantee this locality or are breeders simply naming these animals based on a colouration similarity with an animal they think came from that region.

People like Dave of Pilbara Pythons and Gary of West Aussie Reptiles are a wealth of information and can provide us with animals of known locality when many others are just speculating. This oppourtunity could one day prove very valuable should native populations continue to be decimated.


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 6, 2010)

The obsession that people have with breeding colour morphs, designer this and that ...???

May I ask what do they do with the "offcuts" 

My guess is flood the market with the leftovers that don't meet the requirements of "special"

Cheers
Sandee


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## CodeRed (Feb 6, 2010)

I feel sorry for all those who have bought up big in the last few years in the hope of making a living out of it. If you want to make money, breed rodents. The demand for them must be skyrocketing.


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## James_Scott (Feb 6, 2010)

All I can say is marketing. We need to follow the Americans and come up with better names for our morphs. Good on Jason for using the term "Jellybean" for his patternless Levis. Using terms like RD just confuses the public and we need to simplify it to increase interest. One only has to see the interest in the overseas market with ball pythons and leapard geckos. Sure this is a huge amount of variety there but if they just called them albino, Reduced Pattern, hypo etc do you think they would be as popular as they are now. 
We really need to market our lines and come up with some creative names to build interest. 
As a bonus if you are the first to breed a particular morph and publicise the fact then you should get to name it. Names like firefly, black demon, I don't care what it is but give the hobby some flair! 
There are so many secret projects out there that need to become public to expand interest in the hobby. Contact our excellent reptile magazines and get some published! You will be doing yourself and the hobby a favour. 
There are always people that prefer the standard classical forms and if we can spread the hobby out through clever marketing and artwork then these will sell as a biproduct.
Good luck to all of the breeders out there, I know its tough so maybe its time to change tact.


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## beatlloydy (Feb 6, 2010)

markars said:


> Thats because for too long anything reptile related has been an excuse to gouge, rape and burn the consumer!
> 
> The last few years have seen the popularity of the alternatives ( click clacks, electrical wholesalers for heating gear and globes and internet sales from overseas) grow and hence people stop the purchase of these items. The retailers and manufactures only have them selves to blame, If the prices (mark ups) of these items were not so high in the first place, people would not have to look for home made or cheaper alternatives.
> 
> ...



Your comments about the price of goods at retail store level versus what we can get overseas including shipping are spot on...and not limited to reptiles...I have the same issue with bicycles and guitars....now the retailers will say..."we have overheads such as rent etc etc"....however, this should only justify a 10-15% markup..whereas in many cases the markup is more than 50% and in some cases more than 100%.

I for one will buy from a retail store versus internet if the price difference is no more than 15%...any more and I will look after #1 (me)...too bad if the stores are doing it tough...they need to revamp themselves and perhaps have a cheaper online presence or offer in store incentives..e.g free servicing of equipment in first 12-24 months, in store warranties etc.

As to species slowing down perhaps it is a cycle...for those trying to offload perhaps try a little later when there is less on the market...when the market is flooded (Dec to March) then there will be lots of reps not sold...to the sellers...try and treat all buyers with respect...I know tyre kickers are sometimes a waste but I for one will try and get a feel for the seller and if the "vibe" is not there I wont deal with them..if that makes me a tyre kicker the so be it...I am not going to deal with rude or shady sellers...It doesnt take long to answer and email or a phone or put up a few pictures...buyers have a right to see the parents and siblings pics if they ask for them...if you put them in the ad in the first place perhaps this will stop 99% of the questions.


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## Glowmonkey (Feb 6, 2010)

I notice there doesnt seem to be any comments from buyers here, so I'll throw my two cents worth in and offer my explaination for not rushing in.

Ive been interested in starting off with a Bredli for nearly a year now, after spending some time with a mates gorgeous female hypo yearling, who in his words, loved me. When I first decided to buy it seemed everybody I knew was saying wow I want a snake, a few of them with cash to burn ran out and did it, (thanks mr Rudd for the stimulus for part of that rush). What most of them bought was anything the pet store had in stock, or whatever was cheap enough to just be able to say yeh Ive got a snake too. As for me Ive sat back, I want a good snake, but I didnt consider myself educated enough yet to risk laying out $600-800 on something I might not have been able to look after, and wasnt going to just buy something to learn with, that I couldnt keep later. So Ive waited and watched. What I noticed is that perhaps because of the previous high price of good adult specimens making owning a pure pair too expensive most of the Hypo Bredli's on the market came from breeders that only had one hypo and one common, and pure specimens were harder to find, it now seems a lot more of the hatchlings being shown are coming from dual hypo breeding stock, and better bloodlines are more common. So in my opinion the supply numbers are still around the same but the quality has greatly increased. For me that means Im glad I held back. As now I have the confidence to buy and get to see breeders like Solar17 showing not only a great batch of 38 hatchlings (basically all hypo) but pics of the previous yrs batch looking awesome as evidence of the strength of the bloodlines. Like I said Im glad I held back and am really looking forward to whats for sale over the next few mths now that the crazed cash in fest has settled.


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## zulu (Feb 6, 2010)

Simon_Archibald said:


> I do think this is happening already and its a big shame. The obsession that people have with breeding colour morphs, designer this and that just doesn't sit well with me at all. People compare the selective breeding of reptiles with similar practices for dogs/cats etc, but I cannot make that comparison. The difference to me lies in the fact that the species we are breeding are still all out there amongst the wild yonder. Natural colour variations serving a purpose for any particular species. You only have to look at the terrible looking GTPs that are being bred in USA and the bastardisation of species like the Ball Python to know what greed can do to people. Furthermore, breeders simply make up the names to the "morphs" they create, all in the interest of selling more to gullible keepers.
> 
> Not enough keepers in Australia have realised what a fantastic oppourtunity the WA licensing system has given us over the past few years. Here you have a system where registered takers are able to collect specimens of many species from the wild, record their location and other relevant data, then introduce these animals into the private market for breeding purposes. This allows breeding of locality-pure animals, bred in captivity as they would likely in the wild. Of all the "Tully", "Proserpine" Jungles, "Tanami" Womas, etc, can you guarantee this locality or are breeders simply naming these animals based on a colouration similarity with an animal they think came from that region.
> 
> People like Dave of Pilbara Pythons and Gary of West Aussie Reptiles are a wealth of information and can provide us with animals of known locality when many others are just speculating. This oppourtunity could one day prove very valuable should native populations continue to be decimated.



In theory the takers system could be very good but its run by CALM and they couldnt run a chook raffle,theyve kept banging away at the common species when they should have taken a few hundred then moved onto another,this would have encouraged captive breeding.


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## beeman (Feb 6, 2010)

Simon_Archibald said:


> I do think this is happening already and its a big shame. The obsession that people have with breeding colour morphs, designer this and that just doesn't sit well with me at all. People compare the selective breeding of reptiles with similar practices for dogs/cats etc, but I cannot make that comparison. The difference to me lies in the fact that the species we are breeding are still all out there amongst the wild yonder. Natural colour variations serving a purpose for any particular species. You only have to look at the terrible looking GTPs that are being bred in USA and the bastardisation of species like the Ball Python to know what greed can do to people. Furthermore, breeders simply make up the names to the "morphs" they create, all in the interest of selling more to gullible keepers.
> 
> Not enough keepers in Australia have realised what a fantastic oppourtunity the WA licensing system has given us over the past few years. Here you have a system where registered takers are able to collect specimens of many species from the wild, record their location and other relevant data, then introduce these animals into the private market for breeding purposes. This allows breeding of locality-pure animals, bred in captivity as they would likely in the wild. Of all the "Tully", "Proserpine" Jungles, "Tanami" Womas, etc, can you guarantee this locality or are breeders simply naming these animals based on a colouration similarity with an animal they think came from that region.
> 
> People like Dave of Pilbara Pythons and Gary of West Aussie Reptiles are a wealth of information and can provide us with animals of known locality when many others are just speculating. This oppourtunity could one day prove very valuable should native populations continue to be decimated.


 

There are some of us that are working on these lines of WA animals from both suppliers mentioned. Things are progressing well with them and good genuine animals will start to surface soon.


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## Sock Puppet (Feb 6, 2010)

If any of you are going to the Wild Expo dinner, perhaps you could discuss this with SnakeBytes Brian & get his opinion on the issue in the US. I wonder what the demand over there is for a standard wild type Ball Python. I wonder if anyone over there even keeps or breeds standard wild type ball pythons or if they're all lavender spider pinstripes etc etc. Same goes for the other animals like retics, leopard geckos, & corns etc. Or back to the original post, I wonder if they're having trouble moving animals compared to other years.


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## Scleropages (Feb 6, 2010)

yommy said:


> It appears to be plenty of reptiles up for sale (as 'for sales' threads are dominating APS at the moment) and they seem to be more older animals then hatchies which is unusual for this time of year......
> 
> My question is: Has the past/present economic issues that has been effecting the world in general, finally catching up with our great hobby ???
> 
> ...


 
Maybe its just more people selling on the net?

Coastals 10 years ago where $150ea and still are.It seems to only be the big dollar pythons that have crashed in the last few years.

I really can't see how some people sell the herps they breed for such a hight amount anyway.
I always have people wanting to buy snakes off me , but I don't like selling them :lol:


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't believe the slump has anything to do with the economic situation or Christmas spending. There has been enormous influx of newbies in the last three years and most of them now have what they wanted and not only that, many of them are breeding and selling now. Because the inflow of newbies slowed down, so did sales and the market is flooded with common animals. Because people are not selling their offspring, they are not buying. I have number of people saying "I would buy your snakes if only I could sell mine".
Another fact influencing the marked is that we have lost the entire strata of "investors" (right or wrong). No one is investing in reptiles now days with the hope to make money one day.
Lastly, many potential buyers are watching the prices decline and they are waiting for them to drop even further. "One year or two - what's the difference if I can have what I want for extra nothing".

I only hope that this slump is not going to impact on breeders producing quality animals in small numbers. There, I think, is the future. When the trend of "cool" aberrants and designer morphs passes the tide will turn.


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## Simon_Archibald (Feb 6, 2010)

beatlloydy said:


> I know tyre kickers are sometimes a waste but I for one will try and get a feel for the seller and if the "vibe" is not there I wont deal with them..if that makes me a tyre kicker the so be it...



Yes, I believe trying to ascertain the "vibe" is considered tyre-kicking ;-)


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## ShaneBlack (Feb 6, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> If you want to make money, breed rodents.


 
Yeah, i wish people would flood the market with rodents and cut prices in half.


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## Hsut77 (Feb 6, 2010)

Having look at U.S web sites it seems the range of prices are at both ends of the extremes. From $20.00 for a 'starter snake' - basic Corn or Ball to multiple thousands for all the new morphs. 

Talking to new keepers who buy my rats I get the general feeling that they are the 'brave few' who decided to part with $300 - $500 on an animal they had never kept before, whilst most of them did a lot of research they still did not have the practical experience and were understandably very nervous about keeping their new charge alive. I believe that a lot more people will enter the hobby if the perceived 'risk' of loosing a heap of money if they make a grave mistake is not there.







Tonksy said:


> If any of you are going to the Wild Expo dinner, perhaps you could discuss this with SnakeBytes Brian & get his opinion on the issue in the US. I wonder what the demand over there is for a standard wild type Ball Python. I wonder if anyone over there even keeps or breeds standard wild type ball pythons or if they're all lavender spider pinstripes etc etc. Same goes for the other animals like retics, leopard geckos, & corns etc. Or back to the original post, I wonder if they're having trouble moving animals compared to other years.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 6, 2010)

Craftman
If the economic situation wasn't a part of the picture, why then has other animals and accessories sales been extremely slow, compared to other seasons as expressed to me by several pet shops?
Surely this isn’t just coincidence?


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2010)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Craftman
> If the economic situation wasn't a part of the picture, why then has other animals and accessories sales been extremely slow, compared to other seasons as expressed to me by several pet shops?
> Surely this isn’t just coincidence?



Dave, I am not aware of the pet shop situation and particularly about sales of other animals but with reptiles, it could be for the same reason, established reptile keepers have what they need and there are relatively fewer newbies coming into the hobby. How many new cages, heaters, etc., people need to buy each year? 
I don't want to argue your point, the overall economic situation may well have undesirable impact, particularly when it comes to expanding private collections. Food and electricity is expensive.

By the way, it's Waterrat here. lol


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## dave8208 (Feb 6, 2010)

Oxydechis said:


> Yeah, i wish people would flood the market with rodents and cut prices in half.



i know a fella with 4 huge freezers full of frozen rats , mice and rabbits..................plus hundreds of breeders and half grown stuff, and he is desperate to offload them.

and as far as supply and demand ..and the likes of Snake Ranch , SXR and others ....this was all talked about and predicted a few years ago , the economic downturn just pushed it along a little quicker and gave us something to blame.

I saw it coming.

And for those who want to expand our "market" , then we should be complaining to NPWS and getting them to allow us to advertise freely in local papers and so on......and allow us to do talks and displays without the over protective garbage that we have to go through to show them.

we are limited to these web sites and the average jo-blow wouldnt know where to look for a reptile. My work mates are always asking me where and how i sell my hatchlings....just like they did last year and the year before


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## Slytherin (Feb 6, 2010)

This has been an interesting read, and only recently, I have noticed more mature pythons being advertised for sale often with full setups (used) in the newspaper and wondered why. :? Out of curiosity, I have been reading the reptile section in the classified and just noticed this.

I came to the conclusion (right, wrong or otherwise), that it _seems_ that people may be getting sick of their mature python or finding a big carpet python a handful to manage (food, cost or strength), and selling up. I found myself concerned for these pythons and hoped that they would find another caring home with responsible owners (like dogs, would buyers prefer youngsters over mature animals?) As it was mentioned earlier, could it be 'cooling off' from impulse buys? Or it could be just a simple case of selling off an old breeder by a backyard hobbyist? 

That's my thoughts from my observations. 

Thanks Yommy for an interesting and mature thread


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 6, 2010)

Sorry Waterrat, it all gets a bit confusing at times for a Kiwi surrounded by spinifix and desert heat for so long.

As far as marketing expansion goes, we all know that exposure is the key. After all how many people suddenly think about keeping a reptile once they have handled someone python for the first time or from simply seeing a great looking set up in a lounge room or pet shop. I guess this only gives the reptile expo's so much more importance.
Hell, I think we now need one in W.A. (Imagine the logistical nightmare of getting that happening) 

Regards Dave


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## paulaandnorbert (Feb 6, 2010)

> As far as marketing expansion goes, we all know that exposure is the key. After all how many people suddenly think about keeping a reptile once they have handled someone python for the first time or from simply seeing a great looking set up in a lounge room or pet shop. I guess this only gives the reptile expo's so much more importance.



This was the point that I was trying to make in my earlier post.

I wonder if Garthnfay is aware of, or if Illawarra breeders and reptile supply stockists noticed an increase in activity as a result of the reptile show last year?

As I said, we have purchased a number of reptiles (as have one of our friends as well) as a direct result of going to the show.

Nothing beats seeing them up close and talking to expert owners about the realities of keeping reptiles as pets. 

And it is hard to image too many impulse buyers at the show, considering no one is really selling animals there and not too many potential buyers will walk in with the required licence.

Norbert


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## Slytherin (Feb 6, 2010)

From a buyers viewpoint, I had been interested in pythons for a while but never thought that the average person could actually keep one in your house. It wasn't until I found out that you can get frozen rodents (the prospect of feeding a live rodent was what really put me off), and that it was within my reach, that I seriously started researching the aspects of keeping a python. What really 'sold me' was a trip to Reptile City and seeing the reptiles there and seeing just how placid a well chosen python could be...and now I have Snakey a placid 2year old female Murray Darling Carpet Python!!

I think they keys are...exposure and education.


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## spongebob (Feb 6, 2010)

Yes over supply is probably now being the main factor IMO. However I do support the argument that newbies can be put off by the local equipment prices. We dont have the same competition between importers/supplies as overseas. 

For example I've recently set up a turtle pond and wanted to buy a commercial pond filter. A suitable model was available here for $1300 (same price at a number of outlets in different states). I bought exactly the same model for a quarter of the price in the UK. Freight cost almost the same as buying the filter but all up it was less than half the local price. Now this is the same for most other pet products. If the trade side of the hobby really want to support expansion they really need to face up to this. OK the beardie/python or what ever may be quite expensive but setting up a suitable enclosure using pet shop products is exorbitant.


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## Brent (Feb 6, 2010)

*slow -very slow times in QLD.*



Waterrat said:


> I don't believe the slump has anything to do with the economic situation or Christmas spending. There has been enormous influx of newbies in the last three years and most of them now have what they wanted and not only that, many of them are breeding and selling now. Because the inflow of newbies slowed down, so did sales and the market is flooded with common animals. Because people are not selling their offspring, they are not buying. I have number of people saying "I would buy your snakes if only I could sell mine".
> Another fact influencing the marked is that we have lost the entire strata of "investors" (right or wrong). No one is investing in reptiles now days with the hope to make money one day.
> Lastly, many potential buyers are watching the prices decline and they are waiting for them to drop even further. "One year or two - what's the difference if I can have what I want for extra nothing".
> 
> I only hope that this slump is not going to impact on breeders producing quality animals in small numbers. There, I think, is the future. When the trend of "cool" aberrants and designer morphs passes the tide will turn.


I agree Waterrat and,, I believe that,,,

'times are slow' - yes - More keepers have an full and total understanding of how to breed reptiles now and we have ended up with a lots of hatchies and common reptiles this last 2 seasons and anyone can breed reptiles now that is fine.
*I will continue to keep and enjoy all of my pythons as I have always done over the last 25yrs -- I have never breed all of my pythons due to the above in mind.
as stated ,, we have ended up with too many animals for sale this season and there are not enough buyers here in QLD.
I will continue to manage my breeding projects in the future to cater for the current market .
it has been nice to breed pythons
and I have read here about guys freezing hatchies that will not sell very sad,
well I do have grave concerns for the future !


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## CodeRed (Feb 6, 2010)

Interesting point that this oversupply will result in freezing excess hatchies. That's pretty sad for the hatchies in question but overall it will benefit the reptile market. Just think, if it doesnt feed first go, FREEZE IT. Or if its a bit fugly, FREEZE IT. Or even if it isnt the best possible representation of the lineage, FREEZE IT !! What we end up with are stronger , and nicer (more desirable) lines.


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## spongebob (Feb 6, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> Interesting point that this oversupply will result in freezing excess hatchies. That's pretty sad for the hatchies in question but overall it will benefit the reptile market. Just think, if it doesnt feed first go, FREEZE IT. Or if its a bit fugly, FREEZE IT. Or even if it isnt the best possible representation of the lineage, FREEZE IT !! What we end up with are stronger , and nicer (more desirable) lines.



Of course to ensure quality lines 'culling' will be come more prevailent. Isn't that what keeping goanas it all about!


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 6, 2010)

Hopefully they start with the hybrids.


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## CodeRed (Feb 6, 2010)

well RPMs will generate a bucket load of hybids. I dont see the breeders culling the jagish ones, but there will be a lot of fat gonannas dinning on the fugly sibs.


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## Hsut77 (Feb 6, 2010)

And a new market niche has been created. Quality BHP Food.



CodeRed said:


> well RPMs will generate a bucket load of hybids. I dont see the breeders culling the jagish ones, but there will be a lot of fat gonannas dinning on the fugly sibs.


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2010)

This thought crossed my mind: people are screaming about the dog and cat situation, calling to stop backyard breeding where only registered breeders would be allowed to breed and sell.

Can you see this kind of pressure coming onto reptile breeders (perhaps from within the hobby community) in the future? It sound crazy, doesn't it ... but is it?


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## CodeRed (Feb 6, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> This thought crossed my mind: people are screaming about the dog and cat situation, calling to stop backyard breeding where only registered breeders would be allowed to breed and sell.
> 
> Can you see this kind of pressure coming onto reptile breeders (perhaps from within the hobby community) in the future? It sound crazy, doesn't it ... but is it?




Here we go again, everyone has the same right to breed whether you like it or not.


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> Here we go again, everyone has the same right to breed whether you like it or not.



Oh, so it's about rights is it?


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## Brent (Feb 6, 2010)

what could happen is that EPA and NPWS will have concerns as well as RSPCA with the current sistuation ,takes time in Govt,,a,,slow moving lot, but it could happen 
we know they do have stats on all of us and what we keep -breed,,,,,
maybe and the legislation and regulations under EPA -NPWS- Act will allow and include that all breeders be registered and others just keep and not breed , unless they apply for a Govt -additional fees and breeders licence via ,restrictions .
and then the Dept will monitor the situation ,
if the breeding continues the culling is out of control they may look in to it.
it just takes time and the Govt need to have the stats or comlplaints believe me!


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## CodeRed (Feb 6, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Oh, so it's about rights is it?



thats how a court would view it.

I am not saying I disagree with you either. I would love to see some sort of control in place to weed out those who have absolutely no regard for the well being of the animals.


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2010)

I didn't mean to scaremonger with my crazy thought, it's way off the topic anyway.


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## boxhead (Feb 6, 2010)

When looking at for sale threads it's easy to see there is a over supply of hatches this year .
prices are dropping every week as breeders have trouble selling their stock .
as said by others there are a lot of very average animals around now .
so for me i will be waiting for the expos to start -mac herps -wild expo to hopefully ad to my collection . reason being to be able to view a number of snakes in one place and to speak to the 
breeders ; so if need be i will be able to buy from different lines to get the pairs i want .
i am hoping that the prices stay the same as now ,but if not so be it .


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## bk201 (Feb 6, 2010)

maybe another issue to think of that has helped create this problem is how many of the breeders i have seen raise there young, 24 hour heat even in winter and having UV lights on longer and pumping the food into animals to have them breeding in there first season.


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## Ophidiophobe (Feb 6, 2010)

The right to own and breed reptiles must be tempered by the responsibility of providing a wholesome life for any reptiles you breed. This precludes freezing hatchlings which is abhorrent. Of course unwanted snakes can be passed on through herp societies and websites like this, how can freezing carpet pythons be justified. 

Your rights and your responsibilities go hand in hand or there is something going wrong.


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## yommy (Feb 6, 2010)

bk201 said:


> maybe another issue to think of that has helped create this problem is how many of the breeders i have seen raise there young, 24 hour heat even in winter and having UV lights on longer and pumping the food into animals to have them breeding in there first season.



I've heard and seen as early as 18 months with some species but never their first season or 12 month old. Physically impossible as there is no way they would be sexually mature.............


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## yommy (Feb 6, 2010)

I was referring to pythons with the above statement, I don't do lizards so unsure of their breeding cycles


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## Elapidae1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Maybe breeders need a national body and a minimum standard criteria for certain quality animals and high end colour morphs etc , same as pure bred dogs that are sold with papers will always mantain higher value, or are reptile characteristics just to variable for that. Even still a national body wouldn't hurt so you could all work together for marketing etc. I mean some of you guys are running top notch operations in a very professional manner and such but I would never have even heard of half of you if it weren't for this forum. The industry to me has a bit of a backyard sort of feel to it in my opinion, but then again keeping snakes is never going to appeal to the masses like the family dog does


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 7, 2010)

Your rights and your responsibilities go hand in hand or there is something going wrong

My sentiments exactly....I care about what sort of life my animals will have after they leave me

But then again I am a girll and a big sook..I care too much to ever leave their future in doubt

Cheers
Sandee


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## Snake_Whisperer (Feb 7, 2010)

I'd be interested to hear thoughts from the breeders of higher end animals. Has this slump hit the harder to get, premium line, or otherwise, more desirable animal sales? (All snakes are valuable in my eyes, not calling an ordinary looking carpet a piece of rubbish or anything so put down the pitchforks!)

I noticed, during an "economic slowdown" back in the day, a lot of businesses were indeed hit with a reduction in business. I was running a high end joinery shop at the time, producing custom timber kitchens and furniture for the wealthy of Vancouver, and we never slowed down at all.

With that parallel in mind, it would be interesting to know if sales of animals like axanthic BHPs, proper locality pure Reduced Pattern carpets, pure Aussie GTP's etc.. has been affected the same way. I was recently offered a choice from a selection of proper "RPM" carpets with the appropriate stunning patterns and colours, I hummed and hawed for 1 week and missed out for the season. 

P.S, I will shortly have a 5 year old Maccie male for sale complete with enclosure! Lol!


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## yommy (Feb 7, 2010)

I think those with the desireable lines won't be effected too much as if it's a line that you really want to develop, you'll pay what you think is fair. 
Example. Denvers current white girl BHP offspring, he could name any price he wanted for them and they would go like hot cakes regardless. It all comes back to supply and demand. 

As well as the reptile sale slump, what about the cage builders etc are you guys also noticing a slow down in sales in general???


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## CodeRed (Feb 7, 2010)

these specialist lines that everyone keeps talking about represent a very small percentage of whats being bred. I would be surprised if they even total 1% of the animals bred this season alone.


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## montay (Feb 7, 2010)

Some excellent and thought provoking debate. I am pleased to see some prominent breeders engaging in this debate also. 
Yes, it is about quality animals - I don't think (personally) that it is about morphs. A robust, healthy and true-to-type pythons is a beautiful animal to behold - regardless of whether that animal is a GTP or a coastal carpet python.
Let's not head down the path of our colleagues in America. We have the most beautiful (and prolific!!) pythons species in the world. let's celebrate what we have, promote our hobby wherever we can and resist the denigration of our hobby to a collection of animals that are merely a commodity.
cheers!


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## Addam (Feb 7, 2010)

Alot of people are thinking the same thing, only the market for the more "plain" looking snakes is going down, but this isnt true. One of my very good friend has some of the darkest queensland coastals that I have ever seen (and has achieved this with very good but selective breeding). He used to be able to sell a whole clutch (of 30+) within 6 months or so. Where as now he still has at least half of them left from this season. 

And there is a few reasons for this, as other people in this thread have said pet stores are not moving there stock that well, the 2 local pet stores in my city, have had the same snakes for months. they just aren't selling. Another reason is that the market for snakes has slowed, as we can see from breeders and pet stores alike. So it isn't necessarily because of over breeding or anything like that, maybe it is just the game of supply and demand finally catching up with us all. And honestly i think a good spike in quantity might decrease some prices which is nothing but good news for people like me who are looking to buy. It may even *fingers crossed* take down the 100%+ mark up that pet shops have on there reptile, and maybe move them down to a bit better price.

But before anyone tries yelling at me for what has been said, just remember that the WHOLE economic system is based on this, supply and demand deviates, depending on many different factors.

Just my opinion but thanks to even one for this thread, has been very interesting to follow along and get people opinions.

P.S to solve the whole freezing thing have you tried putting the snakes on this site for free to good home? cause surely they would be taken in the blink of an eye? but if i am wrong im sorry


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## Addam (Feb 7, 2010)

montay said:


> some excellent and thought provoking debate. I am pleased to see some prominent breeders engaging in this debate also.
> Yes, it is about quality animals - i don't think (personally) that it is about morphs. A robust, healthy and true-to-type pythons is a beautiful animal to behold - regardless of whether that animal is a gtp or a coastal carpet python.
> Let's not head down the path of our colleagues in america. We have the most beautiful (and prolific!!) pythons species in the world. Let's celebrate what we have, promote our hobby wherever we can and resist the denigration of our hobby to a collection of animals that are merely a commodity.
> Cheers!




agreed montay!


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## Gecko :) (Feb 7, 2010)

How anyone could even think about freezing a perfectly healthy animal is beyond me,... 
I could NEVER do that,.
If this is peoples intentions they really should not be breeding anything!
Surely these animals that are not being sold could be given away to spare their lives!! ,. thats just awful.

I hope the hobby picks up,. as others have mentioned, I really believe if we had more options on advertising etc to the general public it would make a huge difference, instead of having to deal behing closed doors,. 
Expos are a great to envolve the general public,. but these expos need to be properly advertised so everyone hears about them..... Bring on the Expos!!


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## Snake_Whisperer (Feb 7, 2010)

Addam said:


> Alot of people are thinking the same thing, only the market for the more "plain" looking snakes is going down, but this isnt true. One of my very good friend has some of the darkest queensland coastals that I have ever seen (and has achieved this with very good but selective breeding). He used to be able to sell a whole clutch (of 30+) within 6 months or so. Where as now he still has at least half of them left from this season.
> 
> And there is a few reasons for this, as other people in this thread have said pet stores are not moving there stock that well, the 2 local pet stores in my city, have had the same snakes for months. they just aren't selling. Another reason is that the market for snakes has slowed, as we can see from breeders and pet stores alike. So it isn't necessarily because of over breeding or anything like that, maybe it is just the game of supply and demand finally catching up with us all. And honestly i think a good spike in quantity might decrease some prices which is nothing but good news for people like me who are looking to buy. It may even *fingers crossed* take down the 100%+ mark up that pet shops have on there reptile, and maybe move them down to a bit better price.
> 
> ...


 

Good to see the buyer's perspective as well Addam. You make a good point in that there are clearly other factors at work in the slump of sales. For all intents and purposes, in the context of the economy at large, keeping reptiles is a luxury. Given that the globe at large and Australia specifically, is just starting to recover from a planetwide recession, money is tight for most in the developed world and it is well documented that luxury purchases are the first to go. Obviously this is more applicable to those for whom $150 means the difference between 3 meals a day versus 2. 

There is undoubtedly a glut in supply as well hence why I would wonder if the higher end, rarer animals would be as heavily hit sales wise. Limited supply, more demand.

The future, as has been pointed out before, is definitely in expanding interest in our hobby. The more the general public at large becomes informed of just how wonderful reptiles are, not only will it start saving snakes from the shovel, it will begin to provide homes for some of these surplus animals everyone is breeding.


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## Gecko :) (Feb 7, 2010)

oops


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## bluey66 (Feb 7, 2010)

Gecko :) said:


> How anyone could even think about freezing a perfectly healthy animal is beyond me,...
> I could NEVER do that,.
> If this is peoples intentions they really should not be breeding anything!
> Surely these animals that are not being sold could be given away to spare their lives!! ,. thats just awful.
> ...


 
l agree with what Gecko has said here, how could anyone even think about freezing a beautiful healthy Reptile is also beyond me, and if they do do it they should be reported to the RSPCA and who ever there wildlife licence is registered with in their state.

l myself could not freeze any captive Reptile in my care, unless they were so close to death and had no hope of surviving in captivity.

lf there is no demand for what you keep and breed from your collection you should think twice about breeding your Reptile's, and if they do breed and there is no demand for them, why don't you pass them onto a beginner or sell them at a bargain price to a newcomer to the herp scene.

lf l ever hear of anyone freezing there captive Reptile's just to rid of them cause there is no demand for them in the pet trade, l will be straight onto the phone to the Authorities in that state to report them for animal cruelty and l mean it 100%.


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## CodeRed (Feb 7, 2010)

wow there are some naive people here.

How many womas do you think were frozen last season?


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## boxhead (Feb 7, 2010)

Great thread . have a much better understanding of what breeders go thru now .
So i would like to ask . 1- how low would the price of enter level snakes ( macs,stimes, ect ect ) have to be before you would not breed them next year . 2- you would decide to stop breeding them all together and sell off your breeding stock to concentrate on on other snakes in your collection .


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## Gecko :) (Feb 7, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> wow there are some naive people here.
> 
> How many womas do you think were frozen last season?



What has Naive got to do with my opinion?
Im not saying it isnt happening,. but does that make it ok does it?

If you cant keep hold of your animals until they are sold or given away the DONT BREED THEM! you cant tell me people practising this are in it for the love of it,. .. Bull crap!

I have no idea how many Womas were frozen last year,. all I know is none of them were mine.


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## CodeRed (Feb 7, 2010)

boxhead said:


> Great thread . have a much better understanding of what breeders go thru now .
> So i would like to ask . 1- how low would the price of enter level snakes ( macs,stimes, ect ect ) have to be before you would not breed them next year . 2- you would decide to stop breeding them all together and sell off your breeding stock to concentrate on on other snakes in your collection .



I think the hobbyist breeder can sustain a much lower price than the commercial breeders who have rates and labour to pay for. For me whatever I make from reptiles only has to really cover electricity, food, and any new equipment costs. and lets face it its my hobby of choice, it doesnt have to make a profit. None of my other hobbies ever did.


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## Ophidiophobe (Feb 7, 2010)

Killing snakes that you bred because you can't make a profit from them is wrong. Didn't anyone learn anything at preschool?


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## Waterrat (Feb 7, 2010)

Many people seem to be uncomfortable with the "money making" component in this hobby, many would like to see reptiles bought and sold for a minimal price, the less the better.
I might have mentioned somewhere earlier that one of the reasons for the downturn in reptile trading is the fact that people no longer consider reptiles as wise investment and as a result, we have lost an entire group, very specific group of buyers - the investors. Whatever you opinion on this may be, don't forget that historically, every economy slump has been rescued by investors, not by the poor people. The raise from a slump is triggered by "investor's confidence". We can call this reptile keeping hobby "hobby" as much as we like but in reality, it would die without money changing hands. Think about the peripheral businesses that manufacture enclosures, heating products, rodent breeders, reptile treansport, etc., etc. They are in it for the money and their business are directly relying on sales and purchases of reptiles.
It was fine in the old days when we used to swap animals or give them away to friends but we also had to build our own cages, be electricians, bred our own foods, etc..


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 7, 2010)

It was fine in the old days when we used to swap animals or give them away to friends but we also had to build our own cages, be electricians, bred our own foods, etc.. 

Still do


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## Ramsayi (Feb 7, 2010)

Gecko :) said:


> What has Naive got to do with my opinion?
> Im not saying it isnt happening,. but does that make it ok does it?
> 
> If you cant keep hold of your animals until they are sold or given away the DONT BREED THEM! you cant tell me people practising this are in it for the love of it,. .. Bull crap!
> ...



Trouble is some people are breeding stuff in numbers that are way too large.A couple of hundred coastals for example.

Mass production is something that I have never been comfortable with and never will be.I usually only cycle our breeders every second season rather than treat them like battery hens.

I rested a lot of stuff this last season,bredli for example as there are far too many about and I didn't want to contribute to the problem.Selling animals so cheap that they become disposable pets is by far and away a major problem.


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## bluey66 (Feb 7, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> wow there are some naive people here.
> 
> How many womas do you think were frozen last season?


 
Whats naive got to do with this thread or me, and whats happend to the good old days before 1995 and beyond, when people had a love and passion of keeping and breeding Australian Reptile's, that did not just want to keep Reptile's for profit or money making or design snakes by inter or cross-breeding, who were also willing to share their knowledge in keeping and breeding rather than protect their own interest.

l myself can remember the good days way back in the 80's and early 90's, where everyone had a love and passion of keeping and breeding Australian Reptile's, the prices were nowhere near has high has they have been for the last 10 years, and if l ever needed help or advice on sexing-breeding-husbandry they were more willing to help me or share their very own knowledge that they themselfs had learn't over the years.


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## yommy (Feb 7, 2010)

boxhead said:


> Great thread . have a much better understanding of what breeders go thru now .
> So i would like to ask . 1- how low would the price of enter level snakes ( macs,stimes, ect ect ) have to be before you would not breed them next year . 2- you would decide to stop breeding them all together and sell off your breeding stock to concentrate on on other snakes in your collection .



In relation to Number two. 

years and years ago i started out with coastals and childreni (the bread and butter snakes) as i like to term them. From these humble animals i have build a small but quality collection of animals desireable to me. 

I still have many childreni but as you said after next season i have lines i wish to develop from my top end animals. As i have previously mentioned my numbers are limited by the wife which in hindsight isn't a bad thing (though i would never tell her that  ) So to increase the lines of interest, something has to go, so unfortuneatly it will be the childreni but i will have one more season with them as i enjoy raising the hatchies.....

Everyones motivation for breeding will be different but i look at it that if i a doing all the correct husbandary and my animals are happy they will breed and like ramsayi said rotating and bi-annual breeding is a great idea for your animals well being................


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## Addam (Feb 7, 2010)

Gecko :) said:


> What has Naive got to do with my opinion?
> Im not saying it isnt happening,. but does that make it ok does it?
> 
> If you cant keep hold of your animals until they are sold or given away the DONT BREED THEM! you cant tell me people practising this are in it for the love of it,. .. Bull crap!
> ...



well said Gecko, my friend has about 25 snakes at the moment where as he only wants about 6, the rest are hatchlings he has to keep as he hasn't sold them from this season. he dosent want to keep them but he has to. he isnt frezzing his when he gets stuck with them.


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## CodeRed (Feb 7, 2010)

Gecko :) said:


> What has Naive got to do with my opinion?
> Im not saying it isnt happening,. but does that make it ok does it?
> 
> If you cant keep hold of your animals until they are sold or given away the DONT BREED THEM! you cant tell me people practising this are in it for the love of it,. .. Bull crap!
> ...



Hey no point getting mad at me, I am just the messenger. None of my reptiles will ever need to get frozen as I only breed a few clutches per season and none of them are womas 

Its the bigger operations that breed 100's of clutches per year. They cant just give away 100 or 200 unsold snakes now can they. This season probably caught a lot of them off guard as they have been ramping up over the past couple of seasons in anticipation of market growth. They weren't to find out that the market had slumped until their snakes and lizards had hatched and they tried to sell them. If they dont learn and do the same next season then you be very justified in being p-eed off as that would just be blatent disregard for the animals.


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## Gecko :) (Feb 7, 2010)

CodeRed,. Im not getting mad at you,. I am just saying, none of the comments I have made are Naive,. your comments indicated to me that you believe this practice of freezing unsold reptiles is acceptable,. sorry if I misread your opinion, just making mine clear.

I understand noone knew this was going to happen, so maybe ppl will not be in such a rush to breed as many reptiles as they can next season,. but all the same , the ones that have already been bred but cant be sold dont diserve to be iceblocks


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## Ramsayi (Feb 7, 2010)

yommy said:


> In relation to Number two.
> 
> years and years ago i started out with coastals and childreni (the bread and butter snakes) as i like to term them. From these humble animals i have build a small but quality collection of animals desireable to me.



Indeed.A mac clutch would finance a hatchy pair of bhps etc.Grow them up,bred them and so on.

Seems these days a lot of people want everything right away and since they can't afford it are quite content to try and talk things down.

Trouble seems to me is because too many people are approaching breeding like a business and forgetting it's a hobby or are breeding indiscriminately and flooding the market with low or average type animals.


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## CodeRed (Feb 7, 2010)

Its all cool 

I am not sure what they could do with the excess reptiles besides euthanasing them. Giving them away for free isnt possible for the numbers we are talking about. In any case it would also undermine the market further. Also keeping the excess is ok for the hobbyist, whats an extra few snakes (hope my wife isnt reading this lol), but for a commercial operation this isnt financial sensible. After all they have to make money to stay in the business.


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## CodeRed (Feb 7, 2010)

On a positive note. The drop in prices might reduce the illegal collection of snakes and lizards. All those pygmy stimmies and wheeleri still running around in the bush can breath a sigh of relief.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 7, 2010)

the biggest issue i have is as has been mentioned people who are just getting into the hobby and going straight into breeding i have been keeping for 5 years as of tomorrow  and have yet to breed any herp. 

why because i have spent the time researching the market the animals gaining as much knowledge as possible writing business plans, perfecting my husbandry techniques and trying to figure out what i believe to be the best actions morally, financially and most importantly for the animals.

for me this slump is an opportunity, i currently dont rely on my animals for anything other than the pleasure i get from my interactions with them and they don't cost more than i can afford in fact i can afford to keep quite a few more without worrying about haveing to "offset" the cost. 

so im going to be buying up on the best quality natural examples i can of each species of Morelia (to start with). Then im going to take my time rearing them to the best of my ability to be strong healthy snakes. once they are strong and healthy im just going to sit back and watch the market.


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## kupper (Feb 7, 2010)

Ramsayi said:


> Indeed.A mac clutch would finance a hatchy pair of bhps etc.Grow them up,bred them and so on.
> 
> Seems these days a lot of people want everything right away and since they can't afford it are quite content to try and talk things down.
> 
> Trouble seems to me is because too many people are approaching breeding like a business and forgetting it's a hobby or are breeding indiscriminately and flooding the market with low or average type animals.




making offers and talking people down from there desired prices is something that is prevelant amongst more than just the reptile hobby

the amount of people i get in to work offering my sales people rediculous amounts of money for something that they clearly cannot afford is rediculous 


i still stick by the fact that to many people breeding **** animals for the sake of it but still expecting top dollar coupled with both the time of the year and the quantity of animals out there for sale are clearly affecting how quickly things are moving 

put something rare or a jag for that matter up for sale and i am more than 100% confident that it will sell over night


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## kupper (Feb 7, 2010)

also its up to breeders to relax on breeding things that are not selling , as rams has indicated 

when i worked at Bayfish and Aquarium Industries fish went in cycles from rare to a few around but still pricey to so many out there that they went form a $250 item to a $25 cant get rid of the things to save myself item 

but once they got to that $25 section everyone stopped breeding them becasue they where not worth or because there where too many , give it three years for the stock to dissapear and then the species becomes a $250 item again and so the cycle continues 

reptiles although a differant kettle of fish has the same sort of smell to it , how many of you in VIC remember Land Mullets being everywhere early 2001-2002 started at 500 a peice then went to 100 a peice now there is none around


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## BARRAMUNDI (Feb 7, 2010)

In regards to alot of comments referring to not going down the morph line, sorry but its too late. There is alot of evidence to suggest that the majority of keepers want bright, colourful or unusual looking animals (morphs). The problem lies that most of us keepers already have the bright and colourful wild type specimens. So whats next, what new bright colourful reptile can we buy next? The answer: MORPHS.

Just look at the classifieds, ad after ad of beautiful Jungles, Chondros, Bhps and the like that are not selling. 

I'll give you an example of my situation, I have been trying to sell wild type BHP'S and Jungles, to date I have sold maybe 10% of my offspring for a fraction of what they were were worth 1-2 years ago. I am also selling RPM's and to date have sold 95% of them at rates Chondros were worth 3 years ago.

Some may like it, some may hate it, but extaordinary looking reptiles are going to far more popular with most keepers, they will move in quick time for good value. The majority of standard wild type animals may aswell be left to rest from breeding until the whole morph popularity dies down in 5 - 10 years time.


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## Waterrat (Feb 7, 2010)

To many, especially newbies, breeding is a measure of success. I don't see it that way. Long-term keeping, learning from observations that leads to a personal development is the key to success. If you apply for a job as a reptile keeper, the number of bred species on you CV is not going to be nowhere near as impressive as your in-depth knowledge about the species. Reproductive biology of nearly all Australian pythons has been described and published several time over and the likelihood of discovering something new is slim. There are aspects of reptile keeping well beyond breeding.


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## Ophidiophobe (Feb 7, 2010)

Time to band together those interested in maintaining Australian snakes instead of Norweigian imports (reduced vigour, sorry, pattern Morelia). Glad I am not in this game for the money, but rather for my passion for keeping naturally interesting snakes. Note the word "naturally". At least the snakes I like will be getting cheaper, according to the economic forecasts of this thread.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 7, 2010)

i remeber that another good example atm are cardinal tetras as soon as the trick to breeding them in captivity was figured out they were the same price as neons and now they are back to 6.50 a fish cuz nobody is breeding them.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Feb 7, 2010)

So as said time and time again. Is it simply supply and demand that is causing this slump?

IMO: The current demand for standard wild type reptiles is low, while the supply of standard wild type reptiles is high. Therefore pushing asking prices down until the supply is reduced to an acceptable level. 

Do most people out there believe this is the current situation?


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 7, 2010)

The problem is that every 2nd person who gets into this hobby has a go at breeding, which wouldnt be a bad thing if all herps laid 2 egg clutches


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## kupper (Feb 7, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> So as said time and time again. Is it simply supply and demand that is causing this slump?
> 
> IMO: The current demand for standard wild type reptiles is low, while the supply of standard wild type reptiles is high. Therefore pushing asking prices down until the supply is reduced to an acceptable level.
> 
> Do most people out there believe this is the current situation?





agreed


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## it_slithers (Feb 7, 2010)

Geckoman123 said:


> The problem is that every 2nd person who gets into this hobby has a go at breeding, which wouldnt be a bad thing if all herps laid 2 egg clutches


Do you breed gekoman???
If all herps laid only two clutches, then people would only just buy more to have more clutches lol. 

I find it funny how many people say to many people breed, yet you can bet that same person isnt going to stop breeding!

And agreed BARRAMUNDI its supply and demand, simple!


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## longqi (Feb 7, 2010)

This is the best possible result for the reptiles
Up until now too many snakes were kept locked away in a cage with big signs saying 
"Do Not Touch My Valuable Specimen"
Now those same snakes have dropped to realistic prices they can become pets rather than the snake in the cage
GTPs for $10,000 was a complete joke and the same goes for BHPs and Womas at $1000 
Anywhere overseas a snake would have to be exceptional to get close to those prices
There are very very few breeders in Aus who produce exceptional snakes
Those that do will still command high prices 
But the majority of snakes are now starting to come down to reasonable levels more in line with their actual value


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## zobo (Feb 7, 2010)

things will pick up as too many are panicking during the hard times and flogging off animals in 'fire' sales, but everything will settle after a while and the old 'supply and demand' will pick up again in a few years when no one is breeding and everyone is getting back into reptiles.

Th GFC has impacted as many herpers are cashed up bogans (yes that is the proper PR term! LOL) and they were hit hardest and disposable income is tighter, but when they next housing/mining boom kicks in (already in Qld) things will pick up. 

I only keep unusual animals and so far no probs with sales

j


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## BARRAMUNDI (Feb 7, 2010)

Further evidence to support the fact that reptile keeping industry is heading towards morphs. People cant sell standard Coastals, yet Zobo can just about name his price and still move super stripe Coastals.


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## Waterrat (Feb 7, 2010)

longqi said:


> There are very very few breeders in Aus who produce exceptional snakes
> Those that do will still command high prices




Just as a matter of interest, what are "exceptional snakes"? 
Exceptionally unusual (morphs), exceptionally robust, healthy from strong lines or exceptionally hard to get species / morphs?
I am curious because I would like to know if I fall into that category and if not, what should I do to join this exceptional group in the future.:lol:


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## montay (Feb 7, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Just as a matter of interest, what are "exceptional snakes"?
> Exceptionally unusual (morphs), exceptionally robust, healthy from strong lines or exceptionally hard to get species / morphs?
> I am curious because I would like to know if I fall into that category and if not, what should I do to join this exceptional group in the future.:lol:


 
It's puzzling, isn't it??
I have, just metres from me as I type this, two 'exceptional' little woma pythons watching me with their funny little black clown eyes. I think their something special.
A few meters from them, I have a 'common' variety of coastal carpet python. She weighs in at around 5 kg, and is around 8 foot long. She is in pristine health, has a wonderful temperament.
Now, let me ask you all: of these pythons, which one would draw the most 'oohs' and 'ahhs' - no prizes for guessing!
It makes one re-define just what 'exceptional' means ... and yes, 'waterrat', you do belong in the exceptional group with your green darlings!


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 7, 2010)

it_slithers said:


> Do you breed gekoman???
> If all herps laid only two clutches, then people would only just buy more to have more clutches lol.
> 
> I find it funny how many people say to many people breed, yet you can bet that same person isnt going to stop breeding!
> ...


yes i breed, but only to swap, my geckos lay 2 eggs at a time so there isnt a huge amount of profit no matter how many i buy and the more breeders i buy the more work thats involved, those hours would be more profitable working at McDonalds


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## Southside Morelia (Feb 7, 2010)

Ramsayi said:


> Trouble seems to me is because too many people are approaching breeding like a business and forgetting it's a hobby or are breeding indiscriminately and flooding the market with low or average type animals.


BINGO...its the old $$$$$ sign for some and NOT the enjoyment of the hobby.
Although I do I know many who earn a living off breeding, but approach the Business side of the hobby as that, a Business and not like some who as mentioned, "flood" the market with low to average animals that unfortunately, brings the market price down for the people who have invested in the hobby for many years. JMO Some may say this is a good thing......but all these average animals sold, subsequently makes the owner think twice after seeing better animals available afterwads....then what happens to the average animals??? Now that's another debate!


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## yommy (Feb 7, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Just as a matter of interest, what are "exceptional snakes"?
> Exceptionally unusual (morphs), exceptionally robust, healthy from strong lines or exceptionally hard to get species / morphs?
> I am curious because I would like to know if I fall into that category and if not, what should I do to join this exceptional group in the future.:lol:



Everything you have listed plays an important part. Particulary robust, heathy animals from good lines.
Though exceptional is in the eye of the beholder, i believe all my locality specific animals are exceptional, though i have taken my time and not rushed into selecting my animals for what appeals to me and have payed top $$$ but for me its not an issue if it is what you want. 

What is of interest to me Waterrat is: have you notice a decline in interest or sales for your greens? 
Being one of the best if not the best for pure aussie greens that money can buy in Aus do you have an issue moving on your hatchies in this current situation. If my situation allowed the time and committment for greens, i'd be knocking on your door for some but unfortuneatly my job situation doesn't allow this.


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## SNAKEBOY33 (Feb 7, 2010)

Ophidiophobe; Glad I am not in this game for the money said:


> my thoughts exactly


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## it_slithers (Feb 7, 2010)

Q:


southside morelia said:


> then what happens to the average animals??? Now that's another debate!


.

A:


codered said:


> interesting point that this oversupply will result in freezing excess hatchies. That's pretty sad for the hatchies in question but overall it will benefit the reptile market. Just think, if it doesnt feed first go, freeze it. Or if its a bit fugly, freeze it. Or even if it isnt the best possible representation of the lineage, freeze it !! What we end up with are stronger , and nicer (more desirable) lines.


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## Waterrat (Feb 7, 2010)

yommy said:


> What is of interest to me Waterrat is: have you notice a decline in interest or sales for your greens?
> Being one of the best if not the best for pure aussie greens that money can buy in Aus do you have an issue moving on your hatchies in this current situation. If my situation allowed the time and committment for greens, i'd be knocking on your door for some but unfortuneatly my job situation doesn't allow this.



There are some interesting dynamics, what I can say, it was easier and quicker to sell GTPs 3-4 years ago than it is now for less than half the price.
There is a clear indication that those set to own GTPs prefer yearlings and are prepared to pay the higher price. Well established, sexed, coloured (you can see what you're getting) animals are the go. So, no sweat, just like last year, I am holding onto them. There is one other advantage - it will give me two years of solid data on ontogenic colour change, prey switch, sex ratios and other aspects of their developmental stages.
Oh, as for the best or nearly best - they are *my* best so far. 13 - 15 grams at hatching is nothing to complain about, now 3 months old, they feed on fuzzies and you know what they do once on more solid diet - power away!


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## tonesanlainie (Feb 7, 2010)

This is a very interesting thread. I think in short "reptiles are only worth what someone will pay for them". Of course that is an over simplification, but none the less true. Pay can be in cost of keeping, electricity bills, transport, likes, dislikes, so many factors. But the point still remains. The popularity of some species may have also been driven by a price tag. If a snake costs $10,000 does that make it more desirable than a $100 snake? One is more attainable and another is more desirable.If say all reptiles were the same price would the demand be more accurate of the taste and desires of the buyer? But then there would little to motivate!

I do think however that one of the first steps is to align the states. I am not wishing to side track this thread, but simply point out that if it was easier to share the hobby then demand and popularity of the hobby would improve. Naturally this would mean using the lowest common denominator approach. We all acknowledge regulation is necessary, but a consistent approach to standardize the keepers/enthusiasts would make inroads and remove many barriers to developing the hobby.

Cheers


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## Insane (Feb 8, 2010)

No offence mate, but from a business perspective, if you have spent 5 years writing business plans and watching the market, you won't do very well in a proper business environment. Theres a time where you need to grab opportunity and go with it rather than being the observer 

Note, this is business related , rather than snake related. If he has spent 5 years building up breeding stock, one could argue that he has spent 5 years building the business, rather than watching the market change etc.

Interesting thread though, for someone getting into herping.



Hooglabah said:


> the biggest issue i have is as has been mentioned people who are just getting into the hobby and going straight into breeding i have been keeping for 5 years as of tomorrow  and have yet to breed any herp.
> 
> why because i have spent the time researching the market the animals gaining as much knowledge as possible writing business plans, perfecting my husbandry techniques and trying to figure out what i believe to be the best actions morally, financially and most importantly for the animals.
> 
> ...


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## yommy (Feb 9, 2010)

Another idea or thought i've had is: with this increase in animal numbers and having to hold onto them how have the rat suppliers faired, i would amagine bussiness should be booming with more snakes about. 

Any rat suppliers out there with ideas???


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## garthy (Feb 9, 2010)

perhaps further promotion of reptile keeping is the answer? Let people know how easy it is to get a licence and let them know what a great pet/interest a snake can be. Would make for a great debate. Generally only reptile lovers (those that are willing to study the ideal conditions for keeping etc) tend to venture into herps.
However on the flip side, we could end up like the US (Florida/Burmese issue) with people thinking of it in fad terms. cute snake-hungry snake-bigger snake-scary snake-expensive snake-wild snake.



Geck82 said:


> If your worried about impulse buying then maybe forums shouldn`t have for sale threads and classifieds sites should be banned..........
> 
> I think that the fact that there are more people breeding reptiles each season has contributed to a slump in reptile sales. Previous seasons i would get a few enquiries a week for each species that i had up for sale, but this season next to nothing. It seems as though the number of people wanting to get into the hobby is starting to plateau and the number of excess animals being bred by people for sale has caused people to start dropping their prices because they are not selling as well as they would have previous seasons.


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## Waterrat (Feb 10, 2010)

Perhaps it's best to let "natural selection" to do its work. This slump will sort out the goats from the sheep and in time things will look bright again. I don't believe we can artificially (promotions) lure people into the hobby, Interest in reptiles is something that has to come from within the person, otherwise as Garthy said, we could end up with new herpers in the game for all the wrong reasons. There are already many amongst us temporarily hanging there because it's cool to have a snake or for the $$$.


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## Troph (Feb 10, 2010)

big ups to Yommy. 
Wicked thread.


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## junglepython2 (Feb 10, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Perhaps it's best to let "natural selection" to do its work. This slump will sort out the goats from the sheep and in time things will look bright again. I don't believe we can artificially (promotions) lure people into the hobby, Interest in reptiles is something that has to come from within the person, otherwise as Garthy said, we could end up with new herpers in the game for all the wrong reasons. There are already many amongst us temporarily hanging there because it's cool to have a snake or for the $$$.


 

Agreed, expanding the hobby only pushes the problem back to a later later date and attracts the wrong kind of people.


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## yommy (Feb 13, 2010)

Seems like we aren't the only ones in the world also seeing sale slumps, a good thread by krefft in the news area titled "Bear Market in Boas: Proposed Laws Strangle Sales of Mutant Snakes" though there current anti-snake bill is having an effect it's interesting to see how it is effecting the side bussiness like rodent etc over there.

Its an interesting read for sure...........


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## Waterrat (Feb 13, 2010)

Interesting read indeed! The word "investors" keeps repeating itself a lot - that's the group of people we have already killed in this country with the ever sliding prices. It seems like we are doomed to follow America in one way or the other.


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## yommy (Feb 13, 2010)

Our hobby incomparision to the US is in it's infancy. At least we can see there mistakes or shortfalls from overseas and avoid history repeating itself. I think even though we are in an ebb as a hobby with sales currently our laws and standards we will put us in good stead for the future. Unfortuneatly we'll always have cowboys in the hobby or the industry but the ebbs or down times sort out those vested for the wrong reasons.
We have the best hobby in the world which can and does pay for itself also not mention the best animals as well and at the end of the day its about our animals not our ego's.


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## stencorp69 (Feb 18, 2010)

PilbaraPythons said:


> As far as marketing expansion goes, we all know that exposure is the key. After all how many people suddenly think about keeping a reptile once they have handled someone python for the first time or from simply seeing a great looking set up in a lounge room or pet shop. I guess this only gives the reptile expo's so much more importance.
> Hell, I think we now need one in W.A. (Imagine the logistical nightmare of getting that happening)


 
WAHS Got approached to do a joint expo with Finch Society of WA if enough dealers wanted to get involved with something like that it could be done. We could look at it if WA dealers are interested.


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## Twin_Rivers (Feb 18, 2010)

Great thread, though not a breeder but someone looking to expand my own collection and someone who owns a business which is reliant on the pet industry to make me a living, I have a few thoughts which affect me here locally though probably are mirrored across the country in similar communities.
We are a pet store and as such we sell reptile related products, at least 70% of people who use us as their supplier own animals illegally, either wild caught (local lizards mainly), exotics (corn snakes), or off licence captive bred snakes, I have recently had a customer who just bought a day old childrens hatchling off licence as his first snake and paid $250 for it, I can't understand this from either the buyers or sellers view apart from the fat the she wanted to make money and it was the easiest way for him to buy a snake.
Most people who come in asking about reptile licencing think they have to sit a test etc to get one and thought it is just all too hard, or they do not wish to pay for a licence.
We in the store are limited in how far we can help expand the hobby because we cannot have any animals in store. Especially where we are located the number of breeders are limited I can't say give these people a ring and run around the corner and pick your snake etc, the closest breeder is around an hour away. There are strict guidelines set out by RSPCA and NPWS on requirement for NSW pet shops on all other animals why can't they do the same for reptiles, they are already commercialised? 
My last point is sellers are not trying hard enough to sell thier animals. I am after another stimson's Python and rang a reputible breeder on the coast and discussed what I wanted he said he had some there price was fine and could i send him a email with my details what i wanted details etc which i did and have not heard back, there are enough animals available now from both backyard guys and breeders with some repute that buyers do not have to chase up breeders for the animals they want, we are heading to expo's soon and i have no doubt i will find what we are looking for with out chasing up a breeder to get what we want when they are not all that interested.
just my rant,
Phil


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## pythonmum (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm doing my best to expand the hobby in my role as a teacher, but I think one factor which has not been mentioned is the longevity of snakes. Because they live 20 - 30 years when properly cared for, there is not as much turnover as there is in mammals with their shorter lifespan. I often ponder the fate of older snakes that people no longer want. I am sure that many of these are illegally released if the owner can't quickly find a buyer. It's a cruel and horrible death for an animal which has never lived in the wild and is probably outside the natural range of its species.


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## yommy (Feb 18, 2010)

some interesting thoughts there twin rivers and pythonmum and points which haven't been raised before. Shows people still need to be educated in not only the reptiles but the licencing system, but then again there is enough places such as forums and the actual parks and wildlife websites if you do your research. 

Hopefully with the expo season fast approaching that awarness will be raised again and these events can be enjoyed by the new and old a like. I've be into reptiles for so long now but expos get you all excited again to see whats being developed and to see what new stuff is out there animal and product wise. I predict good times ahead again for those willing to wait.


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## pythonmum (Feb 19, 2010)

I agree with TwinRivers about licenses - despite the ease of finding out how to get a reptile license, very few people seem to bother. I teach high schoolers who spend most of their free time on the internet, but much of this is social networking and they often neglect to check facts. Many are surprised when I tell them how easy it is to get a reptile license. Those who don't do a bit of research can easily be misinformed by friends or a bad pet store employee. Good pet stores will get them on the right track, as will the factual information out there in books and online. Many parents don't mind the idea of lizards, but object to snakes. They obviously don't realise that snakes are easier to care for! BTW - Full marks to teens on this site who have done their homework and are taking an interest in husbandry.


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## Australis (Feb 26, 2010)

Cheap website and a silver tongue is all you need to swindle people with reptile sales.
Just tell prospective buyers your letting them in early on a yet to be proven morph and 
you will sell out at top price -  Brown hypos and brown reds are where its at people (newbs).

Good enough marketing?


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## cwtiger (Feb 26, 2010)

Very interesting thread. I have been reading and searching for the right hatchlings to purchase. I have looked at different breeds and yes they are lovely but all I am looking for is a couple of children's pythons. They will be my first snakes as pets. I have worked with snakes and cared for many a reptile with National Parks and Wildlife. But gave up due to single mother hood. I have the click clap containers with the air holes ready. I have the rats here also. I now have to save up the $300 to purchase these babies. And find a breeder who will committ to a time and let you come to them to view the snake.


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## Waterrat (Feb 26, 2010)

Australis said:


> Cheap website and a silver tongue is all you need to swindle people with reptile sales.
> Just tell prospective buyers your letting them in early on a yet to be proven morph and
> you will sell out at top price -  Brown hypos and brown reds are where its at people (newbs).
> 
> Good enough marketing?




There has been a good deal of blame put on the sellers but what about the buyers?
You would have to have rocks in the head to fall for such bull.... like unproven morphs or the weird and wonderful names some breeders created to sell their pretty ordinary animals. As long as there are silly people with money to throw around, there will be unscrupulous breeders and sellers. Why do newbies want to buy morphs or high-end animals? I think we all know the answer - to make impression: "I want to have something that my mates don't have, if nobody has it, even better". Alteranively, there is the collector's mentality: "have to have everything". The crooks will gladly take you money. It's not only in this hobby, many businesses thrive on gullible people.


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## ozziepythons (Feb 26, 2010)

Sorry if its been said already but I won't be reading the volumes of posts on this thread....I think the evident slump in reptile sales is due to a glut in the market. More reptiles are available than there are keepers interested in buying due to the explosion in breeding success from everyday keepers. For example, quality pythons going for far less than they used to are even being passed by. Coastals, Darwins, Murray Darlings, Childrens and Spotteds for example are plummeting in price as keepers are desperate to just move on hatchlings. People asking 'old school' prices for their animals end up stuck with them very often unless they get lucky. I've even seen womas going for $250 for hatchlings, and $400 for adults. Those asking double or triple these prices (old school) are often stuck with them as many people won't pay that much when they've seen them available for far less.


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## Waterrat (Feb 26, 2010)

So, the general mentality is - the cheaper the better? I would really like to see the quality of these "discounted" animals like the $250.- womas. I don't think I would be buying one.


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## CodeRed (Feb 26, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> So, the general mentality is - the cheaper the better? I would really like to see the quality of these "discounted" animals like the $250.- womas. I don't think I would be buying one.



They are the same lines that were selling for $2000 each only 3 years ago so I dont see why you have the perception they are bad. In reality the quality hasnt dropped, but has gone up due to selective breeding. So you'd be getting a better animal at 1/8th the price.


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## Kitah (Feb 26, 2010)

If it comes to a long-term pet, and a few hundred dollars difference, I'm going to get an animal I like, personally  i.e a yearling may be advertised as a 'black and gold' for $250 but look nothing like one/not have clean markings etc, vs. one that costs say $400 that (in my eyes) is stunning, and appeals to me- I'll buy the $400 one!

If, however, two very similar looking animals appear on the market that I like just as much as each other, I'd probably go for the cheaper one. Though, having said this, it would also depend on the seller- if its someone I've heard a lot about, like their other animals, know they actually take good care of them etc- I'll buy off them.


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## cris (Feb 26, 2010)

Reptiles breed at an exponential rate, there was recently a massive increase in keepers due to an increase in public awareness but the increase in new keepers seems to have slowed to a more normal level. Prices of commonly available reptiles should be expected to drop at an exponential rate unless quality improves or there is an increase in the increase of keepers.

I think its great and anyone who didnt see it coming is a bit slow. It will hopefully eliminate those breeding rubbish for profit and also increase quality of common species and also the numbers of the rarer species or those that are hard to breed.

Personally i used to think of breeding reptiles as an unwanted hassle and tried to avoid any breeding, but now i would keep doing it even if i cant sell all the offspring. Then again i have a fair few goannas 









Australis said:


> Cheap website and a silver tongue is all you need to swindle people with reptile sales.
> Just tell prospective buyers your letting them in early on a yet to be proven morph and
> you will sell out at top price -  Brown hypos and brown reds are where its at people (newbs).
> 
> Good enough marketing?



Not bad, you could also spray them with food dye to make new colour phases too :lol:


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## zulu (Feb 26, 2010)

*re reptile*



ozziepythons said:


> Sorry if its been said already but I won't be reading the volumes of posts on this thread....I think the evident slump in reptile sales is due to a glut in the market. More reptiles are available than there are keepers interested in buying due to the explosion in breeding success from everyday keepers. For example, quality pythons going for far less than they used to are even being passed by. Coastals, Darwins, Murray Darlings, Childrens and Spotteds for example are plummeting in price as keepers are desperate to just move on hatchlings. People asking 'old school' prices for their animals end up stuck with them very often unless they get lucky. I've even seen womas going for $250 for hatchlings, and $400 for adults. Those asking double or triple these prices (old school) are often stuck with them as many people won't pay that much when they've seen them available for far less.



Definetly an oversupply in the python market for sure,too many in the breeding business,same with the expos,websites and reptile publications that will end in buyouts and compromises to remain solvent in the years ahead.


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## ozziepythons (Feb 26, 2010)

By quality I meant specimens line bred, true to locality and exhibiting the standard morphological characteristics for that locale. For example womas, which are more often than not clearly identified by colouration and pattern. When true to locality like Uluru or SA, and one person asks $800 for a hatchie and another $450, and both specimens are healthy, who will be paying top dollar? Its not about grabbing a cheap snake, its is about getting better value for money with the reptile market in its current situation.


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## Twin_Rivers (Feb 26, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> So, the general mentality is - the cheaper the better? I would really like to see the quality of these "discounted" animals like the $250.- womas. I don't think I would be buying one.



I see it daily, many people have a cheaper the better attitude towards most products. Often my customers will buy the cheapest product we have available with little regard to the quality. 
I personally am prepared to pay a little extra and get a better quality, better looked after animal / product. We buy most of our animals off a local breeder we trust who always the time to go through his animals with us.


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## ando68 (Feb 26, 2010)

I have been trying to find a sw carpet python here in WA ,found some in a pet city store yearlings $1000 each (cross that store of the list). After finding a breeder i got a price of 770 for yearling and 640 for a 3month old hatchling, there is nothing cheap in perth WA :cry:


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## CodeRed (Feb 26, 2010)

ando68 said:


> I have been trying to find a sw carpet python here in WA ,found some in a pet city store yearlings $1000 each (cross that store of the list). After finding a breeder i got a price of 770 for yearling and 640 for a 3month old hatchling, there is nothing cheap in perth WA :cry:



The joys of a closed economy


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## ozziepythons (Feb 26, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> They are the same lines that were selling for $2000 each only 3 years ago so I dont see why you have the perception they are bad. In reality the quality hasnt dropped, but has gone up due to selective breeding. So you'd be getting a better animal at 1/8th the price.


 
Exactly my point, keepers with quality animals are now just wanting some return for there effort so willing to ask far less for there specimens. When advertised next to someone who wants old school prices for their specimens, they are far more likely to sell than the person still asking hundreds of dollars more for the same thing.


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## zulu (Feb 26, 2010)

*re reptiles*



CodeRed said:


> The joys of a closed economy



Bit of a joke hey codered,dam they know how to cash up on royalties and stuff in WA,poor old DEC in NSW had them over years back showing them how its all done with Jeff Hardy etc.
They learnt too good which shows that rats are quick learners,why DEC in NSW dont sell dealers licenses now god onley knows,at least it would bring revenue to NSW as we need it badly.


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## pythonmum (Feb 26, 2010)

Twin_Rivers said:


> I personally am prepared to pay a little extra and get a better quality, better looked after animal / product. We buy most of our animals off a local breeder we trust who always the time to go through his animals with us.


We are just getting ready to spend heaps of money on our rottie who has massive orthopaedic problems. Pythons don't have the same health issues as purebred dogs - yet. (I'm not counting jags and their neurological issues, as these are not officially in Australia.) Breeders need to keep their stock healthy and look after genetic diversity. Pairs from the same clutch are not ideal to use as breeders. It's hard to balance the inbreeding/line breeding required to fix desirable genetic traits and the diversity required for a healthy individual, but it should be a consideration in all pairings. If poor quality animals start flooding the market, it damages everyone.


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## hashbean (Feb 26, 2010)

pythonmum said:


> We are just getting ready to spend heaps of money on our rottie who has massive orthopaedic problems. Pythons don't have the same health issues as purebred dogs - yet. (I'm not counting jags and their neurological issues, as these are not officially in Australia.) Breeders need to keep their stock healthy and look after genetic diversity. Pairs from the same clutch are not ideal to use as breeders. It's hard to balance the inbreeding/line breeding required to fix desirable genetic traits and the diversity required for a healthy individual, but it should be a consideration in all pairings. If poor quality animals start flooding the market, it damages everyone.




please point me to the facts regarding the problems with same clutch breeding ?


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## feathers (Feb 26, 2010)

As a reasonably new keeper of lizards, i find it interesting that some of you are not taking into account the fact that the oldies are obviously doing a good job of passing on knowledge, advice and support. 2 years ago I did not have the confidence to attempt to keep and breed some beautiful animals, yet a few of the experienced keepers gave freely of their valuable time and knowledge and helped me enormously to be able to set up and successfully breed. If this does not occur the hobby stagnates, yet with more like me able to do this the hobby has more animals available. surely if more like me are able to grow with the hobby, more animals means less asking price for them - just like the plasma TVs. Markets will always wax & wane but those in the hobby for the love of the animals will continue. All we really need to do is meet our feeding costs surely because we are in the hobby for love. If you want to be a business, then adopt a business name, ABN and tell the tax man how much you are making, then lobby the government to keep the hobbyists out of the selling market just like many other animal areas do. I think it is great that prices vary, it shows that good old competition is at work!


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## ShadowDragon (Feb 26, 2010)

Australis said:


> Cheap website and a silver tongue is all you need to swindle people with reptile sales.
> Just tell prospective buyers your letting them in early on a yet to be proven morph and
> you will sell out at top price -  Brown hypos and brown reds are where its at people (newbs).
> 
> Good enough marketing?


 
Pretty much spot on Mr Australis.

A lot of "newbies" see the "trick" tags on animals and think that they are getting something exceptional, and if that seller has a flashy website then they think the seller must be "a respected" or "reputable" breeder, yet those who have been around a while know a bit about these "elite breeders" know to avoid them like the plague. It is a shame that money hungry grubs are happy to rip off people new to the hobby. I think that a lot of newbies that learn that they have been had quickly lose interest in the hobby, which is understandable.

If you sell good looking , healthy animals at reasonable prices without the bs name tags you will move your hatchies.

If you are having troubles selling heaps of animals, maybe give your animals a rest for a couple of seasons and forget about the dollar signs.


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## ozziepythons (Feb 26, 2010)

ShadowDragon;1651798)
[I said:


> _If you sell good looking , healthy animals at reasonable prices without the bs name tags you will move your hatchies._[/I]
> 
> 
> Not necessarily the case, hence this thread. You may move a few, and get tyre kickers asking many questions and for an album of pics of specimens for sale, but quality specimens going for cheap is often failing to make sales. Just check out the relevent internet sites selling reptiles, says it all. God help reptile shops asking inflated prices for their animals, they just end up as display specimens rather than being sold!


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## Waterrat (Feb 26, 2010)

Such strong opinions and detailed marketing analysis. 
Smart people know what to buy and where to find it, silly people don't, whether they're newbies or old crocs. The hype is over, the slump will be over in time, the hobby and the reptile business will go on no matter what. "Don't worry , be happy".


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## yommy (Feb 26, 2010)

Touch'e waterrat, 

like you said it will go on with ebbs and flows, its just those who have over invested big $$$ to make $$$ that will really feel this pinch but those who are in it for the passion and animals and are smart about their collections will surf the next crest. The reptile hobby is like surfing you get good and bad waves its all about reading the surf and enjoying the good rides


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## stencorp69 (Feb 26, 2010)

ando68 said:


> I have been trying to find a sw carpet python here in WA ,found some in a pet city store yearlings $1000 each (cross that store of the list). After finding a breeder i got a price of 770 for yearling and 640 for a 3month old hatchling, there is nothing cheap in perth WA :cry:


 
Plenty of SWCP Hatchies around for $500 PM me and I'll give you a contact


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## ozziepythons (Feb 26, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Such strong opinions and detailed marketing analysis.
> Smart people know what to buy and where to find it, silly people don't, whether they're newbies or old crocs. The hype is over, the slump will be over in time, the hobby and the reptile business will go on no matter what. "Don't worry , be happy".


 
Yes herpetoculture will prevail, with the peaks and troughs in sales flowing through time as the hobby changes. I think as predicted by some big names in the industry that morphs will soon dominate and wild type specimens will plumment further in price. Lifes only constant is change, so be it with herpetoculture. There is something to be said to be involved in the research side of herpetology, such as being active in field work, and being in touch with these animals in their wild state apart from the keeping and breeding side of it.


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## chilli (Feb 26, 2010)

pythonmum said:


> Pairs from the same clutch are not ideal to use as breeders. It's hard to balance the inbreeding/line breeding required to fix desirable genetic traits and the diversity required for a healthy individual, but it should be a consideration in all pairings.




old wive's tale, there is absolutely no evidence to back this sentiment up.


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## cris (Feb 27, 2010)

chilli said:


> old wive's tale, there is absolutely no evidence to back this sentiment up.



Inbreeding depression is a real issue, however it isnt always going to cause problems and in captivity i cant see it causing problems if only good quality animals are used for breeding. There are examples of inbreeding causing harm to wild snake populations and also examples of inbred populations thriving. The advantage in captivity is that you dont need to worry about the good snakes dying by chance. A good breeder will notice when recessive problems appear and can avoid them and even eradicate them completely. By breeding clutch mates there is chance they may be het for something, it could be bad, undetectable or something that is worth $$$$$$.

Most dog breeds were made by heavily inbreeding, the problem they have now is that they are mostly bred for appearance rather than working or other practical tasks that require good fitness. Poor selection is the real problem.


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## Jungletrans (Feb 27, 2010)

l notice that the term " investers " keeps poping up . These would be the same people who have driven the price of classic cars and bikes out of the reach of enthusiasts . Who have driven property prices up so far that the Aussie dream of owning your own house is a nightmare . The sooner they go broke and eat their antique , collectable gun the better . l hope they enjoy their expensive reptile collection when the price bottoms out . People seem to be blaming the small breeders for the over supply of hatchies , what about the mega breeders with hundreds of snakes packed into racks ?


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## Waterrat (Feb 27, 2010)

Brother, Cuba still takes immigrants. There, in the land of good music, big cigars and no possessions, all people are equal, all poor. China and North Korea are the other two still surviving communist countries. No classic cars, bikes or investors there - a total paradise for people with sentiments like yours.
No offence brother, I was born and grew up under socialist regime and your sentiments are so familiar to me. Today, I own my house and I also have a nice collection of antique guns. :evil:
Ohhh, I also worked all my life for my money, never belonged to any Union, never been on dole.


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## Jungletrans (Feb 27, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Brother, Cuba still takes immigrants. There, in the land of good music, big cigars and no possessions, all people are equal, all poor. China and North Korea are the other two still surviving communist countries. No classic cars, bikes or investors there - a total paradise for people with sentiments like yours.
> No offence brother, I was born and grew up under socialist regime and your sentiments are so familiar to me. Today, I own my house and I also have a nice collection of antique guns. :evil:
> Ohhh, I also worked all my life for my money, never belonged to any Union, never been on dole.



l never said l was poor , l make mega bucks , but l work for it . Nothing wrong with investors speculatiing , just look at the US markets . l;m not against posessions either , just people getting into something " just for the money " and screwing it up for the enthusiusts . By the way Cuba is FULL of classic American cars , that is what most people drive there . Oh and l collect swords and knives , for my enjoyment , not to push the market up to make money .


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