# Pet shop argument



## Kristy_07 (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm not sure I totally understand why some people won't buy livestock from pet shops... 

I was hoping that someone could explain this to me?


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## Fantazmic (Jun 9, 2010)

its because of the ethics of some petshops......and the support they give after the pet is bought.
also the conditions the animals are kept in are often not that great and it is stressful for animals to be in petshops (people tapping on glass noise size of enclosure disease etc) Also pet shops also dont talk to people thoroughly enough about the keeping of the animal etc.....more interested in selling the animal for a quick buck. I know some breeders can do all of these things too....but reputable breeders with a good reputation are there for you for the life of the animal and you dont have to look tooo hard to find someone good who will support and mentor you in the keeping of your animal....there are some wonderful people on this site...and you dont have to look too hard to find them.

I think probably my opinions stem from the terrible puppy farming that goes on in the dog breeding world and pet shops really perpetuate that.

Just my opinion

Elizabeth


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## PhilK (Jun 9, 2010)

Alot of pet shops, not all:

1. Generally don't know anything about the animals they are selling or the care they require
2. Certainly do not provide the care they require while stocking them - particularly true with spiders and scorpions and reptiles.
3. Sell them at retardedly high prices
4. Often fail in basic things such as naming the animals the right names - eg. Spotted Children's Python, cleaning cages and having all their birds eating 100% seed
5. Pet shops encourage impulse buying which is certainly no good for the animals.
6. Often stocking rates are extremely high which perpetuates disease and stress

That's all I can think of for now but it is certainly enough for me.


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## Kristy_07 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hmmm... I'm not convinced yet 

Certainly, most of the points raised so far are pretty generalised (except for selling at stupidly high prices - I can agree with that). I'm not convinced that it's true of the industry as a whole to say that the animals are not well looked after, staff don't know anything about them, don't properly clean or enrich the enclosures, they're after a quick buck, and won't give support to the new owners after they leave the shop.

People who work in pet shops generally like animals. It would make sense that they would like to see the animals looked after and happy, then, yeah? 

So, where did this huge generalisation come from that pet shops are horrible places for animals to be in? Or is it just that the generalisation is there, and people think it sounds like a good thing to believe without putting much thought into it?


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## GeckoJosh (Jun 9, 2010)

edit
too tired, didnt make sense lol


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## PhilK (Jun 9, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Certainly, most of the points raised so far are pretty generalised (except for selling at stupidly high prices - I can agree with that). I'm not convinced that it's true of the industry as a whole to say that the animals are not well looked after, staff don't know anything about them, don't properly clean or enrich the enclosures, they're after a quick buck, and won't give support to the new owners after they leave the shop.


 Precisely why I said NOT ALL pet shops.

If you have found a pet shop that you believe looks after it's animals well and gives good, accurate follow up advice then by all means shop there - nobody is telling you not to. If I found a place like that I would shop there too. I would have thought it was pretty obvious that when people bad mouth pet shops they don't include the good ones..

Every pet shop I have been in, in most facets, are around for a quick buck and aren't looking after their animals properly. The pet shops brought up in flaming threads on this site are precisely those kind of pet shops and I think it's pretty easy to see why people won't buy livestock from them.


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## Kristy_07 (Jun 9, 2010)

PhilK said:


> Precisely why I said NOT ALL pet shops.
> 
> If you have found a pet shop that you believe looks after it's animals well and gives good, accurate follow up advice then by all means shop there - nobody is telling you not to. If I found a place like that I would shop there too. I would have thought it was pretty obvious that when people bad mouth pet shops they don't include the good ones..
> 
> Every pet shop I have been in, in most facets, are around for a quick buck and aren't looking after their animals properly. The pet shops brought up in flaming threads on this site are precisely those kind of pet shops and I think it's pretty easy to see why people won't buy livestock from them.



Chill, Phil  I brought this up as a point of discussion. Of course I wouldn't buy animals from a shop if they obviously treated them like rubbish. But, from what I have seen, many people on here loathe pet shops as a general rule, for the very general reasons that have been raised already. It's a point of view that I'd like to understand more, since I worked in many pet shops when I was younger, and none of the points that have been raised were a problem in the shops I worked in. In fact, for the most part, the very opposite would be closer to the truth. I still frequent pet shops, and have not come across many that aren't giving their charges a decent temporary home. 

So, while I am after some of the more emphatic non-pet shoppers to explain to me why it's a terrible industry and I shouldn't support it, I'm also looking for this in the form of well-constructed arguments to help me understand what the issue is, and whether people really are just generalising or making a valid point. Not just a flaming


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## PhilK (Jun 10, 2010)

I understand the point of your thread Kristy, as you said you are bringing it up as a point of discussion and I am simply discussing why I believe people hate the pet shop industry. My local is the one I go to buy supplies from, but I would never buy any stock from there except perhaps a fish or bird, because the bird guy really knows his stuff and is a great help. The reptiles and other exotic pets are kept very poorly and they always stock dogs that end in "oodle", which are essentially mongrels that they charge top dollar for.

I am not a fan of the industry. I study vet and the amount of animals we get through the hospital from the pound is mind boggling.. the pounds themselves put down 100s of thousands of dogs and cats a year, and while it is foolish to blame pet shops for this eventuality I think their contribution cannot be overlooked. As I said earlier, they are an impulse buy thing that is simply a money making venture (as all businesses must be). My issue is not that they are making money, but that they are doing so at the expense of the animals who so often end up on our anatomy tables.

I hope I'm not coming off as trying to attack you or be rude, I just enjoy a discussion!


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## hypochondroac (Jun 10, 2010)

You **** stirrer, haha.

I agree that it's too generalised but at the same time i understand how it got this way.
I've visited a few really good pet stores, nice and clean, good looking animals, plenty of staff, mostly average looking stores and one REALLY bad place that has been subject of discussion on APS many times so i'd say the care of the animals wasn't the biggest factor that was letting them down for me.

I don't agree with selling certain animals to the public from pet stores (i'm actually mainly thinking of dogs here) because it does give the careless non research seeking type of shoppers a chance to take home an animal that they otherwise may not consider but the licensing system does decrease the chances of that when it comes to reptiles.. maybe it's a good thing they're so over priced, deter said idiotic buyers.

All in all i'll shop at the few good stores i referred to for select supplies (if i've not already gotten it from the internet) and i'll keep buying my animals from reputable breeders no matter what the species. I guess my opinion is a little from column A and B.


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## Kristy_07 (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks, Phil. While I knew you studied vet, I hadn't considered that your opinion would be based around the animals that end up on your anat&biol lab tables. I studied wildlife, so didn't deal with domestic carcasses for prac  

I agree that the number of dogs and cats going through shelters every year is terrible. That said, I believe this could be solved more efficiently by dealing with the registration and breeding laws than stopping stores from selling livestock. Yes, there is a certain amount of "impulse buying" in pet shops. That said, the stores I worked in never released an animal, of any species, if we felt that the potential buyer was unprepared, with too little knowledge, and was unprepared to buy whatever supplies they needed to be prepared. If someone didn't know they wanted a pet rat or bird or fish when they came in, but fell in love and were prepared to spend the time talking to us about the care needs of the animal, and then spend the money to buy the right supplies, then we sold them the animal. If they came in and fell in love with a puppy on the eve of their gf's birthday, but weren't prepared to buy food, collar, worming etc. we refused the sale. Also, as mentioned, the prices of puppies in pet stores is ridiculous, which, if anything, discourages impulse buying. It's just as easy to not research an animal, and buy it off trading post or gumtree for $50 than be grilled by pet shop staff.


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## Kristy_07 (Jun 10, 2010)

hypochondroac said:


> You **** stirrer, haha.



Recognise :lol:


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## shellfisch (Jun 10, 2010)

hypochondroac said:


> I don't agree with selling certain animals to the public from pet stores (i'm actually mainly thinking of dogs here) because it does give the careless non research seeking type of shoppers a chance to take home an animal that they otherwise may not consider but the licensing system does decrease the chances of that when it comes to reptiles.. maybe it's a good thing they're so over priced, deter said idiotic buyers.



I agree.

I am a big believer in dogs and cats being de-sexed prior to sale. 

I am against pet shops selling cute little puppies and kittens. 
My opinion is that this tends to result in spur of the moment sales, and they are the animals that get dumped in shelters a few months later, when they are not so cute, crapping everywhere and chewing up your stuff - usually because the new owners don't provide enough exercise and attention for them.
My theory is, that if people don't buy from pet shops they will stop stocking them....which is totally unrealistic, I know....


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 10, 2010)

Reason: 300% markup


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## junglepython2 (Jun 10, 2010)

1. Disease risk, there is next to no quarantine and animals are sourced from all over the place. It's a nasty virus' paradise, not to mention mites.

2. Often no real information on the animal you are buying. Locale, feed history, parents etc.

3. Price


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## PhilK (Jun 10, 2010)

I agree Kristy, as I said it is foolish to blame the pet shops entirely for the amount of animals going through shelters each year, but they certainly contribute. The real problem needs to be nipped in the bud by only allowing registered breeders to sell puppies and kittens etc and perhaps mandatory desexing of all companion animals unless going to a registered breeder - this would be hard to instigate and police. However passing a law to prevent pet shops from selling puppies and kittens certainly can only help.

It is depressing that every dog we operate on, do practice post mortems on or cut up for anatomy is generally no older than a year and if preventing pet shops from selling will decrease this number at all then I think it is worth it.

There was a lot of controversy from the public, and certain hippy groups, about the use of pound dogs that were being euthanased for surgery practice etc.. everyone really kicked up a stink, but nobody from the public seemed to see the real issue and ask themselves WHY there was so many bloody dogs available from the pound (100s of 1000s like I said).


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## Tinky (Jun 10, 2010)

Would stating that because it is ilegal in NSW be stating the obvious and unhelpful.

Having said that there are several local 'pet shops' that sell fish and reptile accessories, (no dogs, cats or birds) and they know their stuff fairly well, and offer reasonable advise on the care of your creature.

Of course while they donot sell reptiles from the shop, they all know a good breader who can sell them what they want, (wink wink, no what I mean).


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## Twin_Rivers (Jun 10, 2010)

I have a pet shop unfortunately in NSW we cannot sell reptiles. As you say prices in pet shops are much too high, however i am yet to find anywhere website other store etc that sell products cheaper than me.
Pet shops do not give the required service or know anything about reptiles. I recently had a customer around showing her the difference between stimsoni and childreni how I set up and maintain my enclosures even how I thaw and feed. I gave her an indepth care sheet for the python she was interested in, put her in touch with 2 breeders with good reputations to give her a choice, gave her all the licencing information. 
It will be like anything else in, in any business certain shops will get a reputation, good or bad. It will be the difference between buying a snake from a reputable breeder or the guy with a pair of childrens that wants $100 each for them.
I know there are plenty of shops out there which are an embarrassment, but to generalise as much as you do is wrong.


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## snakehandler (Jun 10, 2010)

The main issue I have with pet stores in general, not just the ones that can sell reptiles, is that there is a lot of misinformation given. Many products sold are not needed, overpriced and designed to make the most of the keepers. Examples include light globes, water bowls and other accessories. Ask yourself when you look at the products, what is here that I actually need? Lights unless there is a UV requirement (only clearly demonstrated beneficial to some lizards) can be purchased for about $1.50 at your local lighting store, instead of the reptile brands that are around $7-$15 and have the same effectiveness. Reptile hand wash is simply aqium with a green dye in it, so why pay so much, go to the Chemists warehouse and get it.

Also the inexperience of those selling the animals, I have heard a number of stores here in Victoria tell people that scrubbies are great first snakes, lacies make wonderful pets that you can easily tame and that monitors do not need a great deal of space or heat! Staff should be required to have knowledge about the products and animals they sell, but regardless of the type of animal sold they rarely have this knowledge.


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## bellslace (Jun 10, 2010)

kristy07 the simple answer is because the bad ones are in easy view. Anyone can walk into a pet shop and look at the quality of livestock and keeping practises and scrutinise for atleast 8 hours a day seven days a week. You can't do this to a breeders personal collection or a vet clinic. If you could, you would notice the same thing, infact IMO, it would be worse for many breeders of companion animals. 

Yes there are some really bad stores that should be closed down. But think about this, for every bad pet shop out there, there are litterally hundreds of bad breeders supplying those stores not caring about where their animals are going to and how they are cared for after they leave their charge. 

Australia in actual fact has very few "puppy farms" most found in South Australia. All reptiles, birds and small animals are from breeders. Most fish are imported from Asia. My partner ran a pet store for well over a decade and his biggest complaint was the quality of poor breeders only interested in how much they could make from their pets.

So it really comes down to the fact that petstores are in the public eye, therefor easy targets. 

Avoid the bad, support the good.


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## syeph8 (Jun 10, 2010)

bellslace said:


> Australia in actual fact has very few "puppy farms" most found in South Australia.


 
hahah blame adelaide! 

I do agree with the rest of it though, the onus is on the breeder to ensure that the person or people they are selling it to can care for it. There are a few good pet stores around, but at the end of the day they are stores and all stores try to sell sell sell, thats how they survive. but i go to amazing amazon regularly for products (fish food, bulbs, furnishings, 2 snakes, fish, tank equipment) and get good advice and have good chats frequently with them and feel they provide high quality care for all their animals and follow-up advice to their clients. in fact 1600 for an albino hatchie isnt that bad on price either! have unfortunately seen many other stores (that i probably shouldnt name) that have quite the opposite mission, so i can understand where the apprehension comes from. 
maybe ill get a discount after this post  but i think its worth a mention for melbournians


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## TigerCoastal (Jun 10, 2010)

we have 4 pet shops and only one stocks herp supplies, and that is the only one that i shop at. I have bought 3 snakes from them, they give great follow up service, and are happy to spend the time with you to ensure that you know all of the care requirements, enclosures are always spotless, and on the odd occasion that a snake craps after they have last checked it and you tell them they clean it strait away. Birds are given a mixed diet, fish tanks are always crystal clear with no sick fish. The owner breeds his own reptiles that they sell (most of you will know who i am talking about, check my location) so his advice and knowledge is pretty good  They also offer a valued customer card that gets you discount on your herp supplies


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## syeph8 (Jun 10, 2010)

TigerCoastal said:


> we have 4 pet shops and only one stocks herp supplies, and that is the only one that i shop at. I have bought 3 snakes from them, they give great follow up service, and are happy to spend the time with you to ensure that you know all of the care requirements, enclosures are always spotless, and on the odd occasion that a snake craps after they have last checked it and you tell them they clean it strait away. Birds are given a mixed diet, fish tanks are always crystal clear with no sick fish. The owner breeds his own reptiles that they sell (most of you will know who i am talking about, check my location) so his advice and knowledge is pretty good  They also offer a valued customer card that gets you discount on your herp supplies



have only heard good things about this fella too. although he takes his sweet *** time updating his website. has had some good colubrids in the past, but not worth the drive just to see what hes got


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## AUSGECKO (Jun 10, 2010)

PhilK said:


> the pounds themselves put down 100s of thousands of dogs and cats a year, and while it is foolish to blame pet shops for this eventuality I think their contribution cannot be overlooked.QUOTE]
> 
> A recent Australian Veterinary Association report estimated that only 1.48% of​puppies that end up in shelters come from pet shop sales, how do you compare this contribution compared to backyard breeders? I know who contributes the higher percentage.......


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## Ramsayi (Jun 10, 2010)

Geck82 said:


> PhilK said:
> 
> 
> > the pounds themselves put down 100s of thousands of dogs and cats a year, and while it is foolish to blame pet shops for this eventuality I think their contribution cannot be overlooked.QUOTE]
> ...


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## PhilK (Jun 10, 2010)

Geck82 said:


> A recent Australian Veterinary Association report estimated that only 1.48% of​puppies that end up in shelters come from pet shop sales, how do you compare this contribution compared to backyard breeders? I know who contributes the higher percentage.......


Really? I haven't seen that report.. is there a link to it somewhere?

And yes as Ramsayi says the pet shops get their pets from backyard breeders generally, so it is all tied together.


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## Scleropages (Jun 10, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> I'm not sure I totally understand why some people won't buy livestock from pet shops...
> 
> I was hoping that someone could explain this to me?



I think it's just because alot of people don't understand overheads so can't understand why there is a 500% markup on some stuff.

I have seen some horrible pet shops and some really nice ones. One of the worse reptile places was in a private home , so anything people can say about shops being dodgy can be said about private breeders as well ( and they arnt on show).


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## snakehandler (Jun 10, 2010)

Dodgy is dodgy, no matter where it is.......overheads are one thing, but to sell a light globe for $7-$15 dollars just cos it says reptile on it is a joke, there is nothing special needed.....most accessories sold in pet stores are not required and over priced. Private breeders and sellers are not always better in terms of husbandry, and before people start to bag "backyard" breeders of dogs, what do you think most reptile breeders are? If you want a quality animal do your research, you should know what you want, what is a fair price, and how to look after it before you get it......regardless of the animal type. Do not always rely on the information from just one source, they may be the breeder, but that does not mean they know everything!


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## bellslace (Jun 10, 2010)

http://avacms.eseries.hengesystems....ATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTFILEID=1099

Here's the link/quote. 

Interesting to note that there is no data to prove that petshop animals get euthanized anymore than pets from other sources and that they make up for a very small percentage of animals purchased. (yes 1.48% in NSW)
Infact the report basically summerises that petshops should be encouraged as the preferred source of purchase as they are the only source that can be easily regulated.


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## PhilK (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks for that bellslace. I am a member of the AVA but had never seen that report before - very interesting, thanks again.


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## carmen (Jun 11, 2010)

i work with a lady who will not buy from petshops so i asked her your question today and she said "Pets are a life choice, your life and theirs, they are not a quick fix nor should they be an on the spot purchase. If you are serious about owning a pet then you would put a lot more thought into it than just seeing a kitten for $35 and buying it without really understanding what you are getting into"
To a degree i agree with that. On the other side, not everyone can afford to go to a registered breeder and buy a $1000 cat.


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## hypochondroac (Jun 11, 2010)

Seriously who buys a kitten from a pet store when they are advertised free all over the place, not to mention you can get them for around $50-$75 microchipped/desexed from a shelter.

and just from going and looking at puppies for sale at pet stores i've gathered they are either pretty poor examples of purebreds or mixed breeds that arn't worth more than $300 max based on the fact that they are a mixed breed, you arn't paying for quality, history, certification on temperament or colour.

Maybe i'm just bitter and cynical because some very smart people decided to breed a cocker spaniel with a poodle.. Groomers nightmare.


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## Riggsy (Jun 11, 2010)

I think if someone chooses to buy an animal from a pet shop for two or three times the price of what they would pay from a breeder then that's their choice.....and if something goes wrong down the track then that's their problem...

My Dad owns and runs a pet shop and have seen him sell the same puppy 3 times! Since people do buy on impulse then decide to return the puppy a few days later...

Everyone knows the reasons why you should save a life at the local pound or shelter rather than buying a brand new one from the shop with that cute doggy in the window, so I won't go too far down that road...

I personally don't believe shops should stock animals for sale.....Dog and cat trade case and point....reptile's will go the same way within the next ten years. 

I've personally witnessed the lack of knowledge staff have for reptiles. i.e: One day while picking up crickets I saw a staff member begin to feed a rather small Spotted Python not one but two oversized prey items which he informed me he did every two weeks. When I quizzed him what he kept himself and what experienced he had with reptiles the answer was...."I did a Tafe course last month and I'm getting my first Reptile soon...." so basically zero.

I also know people who work in pet shops that also keep and breed reptiles who are quite knowledgable and do care about what they are selling but at the end of the day it all comes down to making a buck....After all money makes the world go round...

If the shops didn't have the animals available then and there with instant in house licensing then that would cancel out the impulse buying and therefore lack of care for the unwanted animal down the track.

Just do what I do....if you don't support a particular trade....then don't take part.

If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.


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## carmen (Jun 11, 2010)

completely agree with you there Riggsy!
I have 3 cats, all rescue animals, and 8 scorpions and 1 snake, bought from breeders. I will buy supplys from pet shops but have not yet bought a pet from one.


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Jun 11, 2010)

There are some exceptions to the "Petshops don't care of animals and are just after a quick buck" statement. However sadly enough there is alot of truth behind it. We've been into a petstore and all their animals were sick and it looked like they were dying. Thank goodness they shut that place down, it was sickening to watch. 
As for the matter of dogs, personally I don't see why people don't go to the shelter - I mean, a wider variety, toilet trained, healthy and a wider range of age. Why would anybody bother with petstores anyway?


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## PhilK (Jun 11, 2010)

I can tell you why people don't go to the shelter... well why I think.

Unfortunately the shelters need to make money as they can't run for nothing and so adoption dogs cost.. even more unfortunate is that the pups get snapped up quickly and there are adult dogs there they want you to pay $300 for...

Now I am all for taking animals from shelters and all for adopting an adult dog to give it a second chance, but Joe Public and his family of snotty kids think "why pay lots of money for a shelter dog if we could just go to a breeder or pet shop and get a puppy of the kind we want"..

That's my little theory on why a lot of people don't buy from shelters..


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## hypochondroac (Jun 11, 2010)

Alot of people are under the impression shelter animals come with issues aswell, which is in many cases true.. alot of people are also too dumb to solve the issues so they give the animals back.


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## Riggsy (Jun 11, 2010)

Hi Philk

The Animal Welfare League on the Gold Coast has adult dogs starting at $100 and they are overflowing with cats and dogs all year round but their busiest / fullest month and most hand in's is January ( Just so happens to be just after xmas )

Also the papers have dogs free to good homes everyday.

I think people are more inclined to buy from pet shops because of the "ohh how cute! Can we get him..." factor.

Unfortunately it's too easy for people to accidently breed dogs and cats probably because desexing is more out of most peoples financial priorities. It should be up to council's to subsidise desexing and bring in licensing just like reptiles so you must show a dog licence when registering you dog annually...

I guess it's the same thing with all new toys....the novelty wears off eventually.


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## Dipcdame (Jun 11, 2010)

.......... then again, some breeders need looking at too...... I'm talking about these awful puppy farms, where dogs are acquired and bred together to produce litters of puppies at exhorbitant prices. Talking ethics as well as animal care here!


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## BJC-787 (Jun 11, 2010)

people say that people working in petshops don't know anything about animals
well i work in a petshop and have plenty of knowledge 
i keep birds, reptiles, rabbits, guinea pigs, chickens, fish and a dog, and the other 7 people i work with all have pets

the reason the busiest time of year is january is simple even dogs and cats arn't stupid enough to breed in winter so they mate in spring and then by the time they give birth and the babies are old enough to sell it is mid summer, in my area puppies and kittens numbers are low, and when we do get them most of the time we get them from the local pound or vet when they have come in to be put down.

wouldn't petshops stop impulse buying as why would people go into a petshop to buy a crossbred for $300+ when you could lookup in the paper or go to a backyard breeder and pay little to nothing for the same dog, atleast if you get it from a petshop it will be microchipped and vacinated, it probably won't be if it is from the paper or back yard breeder, people say that petshops only sell crossbreeds whell how do you think every purebred dog started once apon a time, as a crossbred.

it has been said petshops are only in it for the money, arn't breeders as well, they breed there animals to sell the babies to make money, or why else do people sell albino snakes more than a normal, it is to make money.
go to a registered dog breeder and they sell them for hundreds even thousands and why to make money, example buy a pup for $300 or $600 if you want registration papers with it, i have been looking at getting a saint bernard it will cost from a registered breeder $2500 or $3500 if i want papers with it, i can tell you it doesn't cost $1000 to register a pup, they just want to make money.

also said they keep their animals in poor conditions or small cages, this is not every store and if it is they get complaints or reported, can you tell me every breeder keeps their animals in pristeen conditions or correct size enclosures, and if the don't it is not on show to the public or people that are buying the animal.


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## PhilK (Jun 12, 2010)

BJC we already established that not EVERY store is bad and not ALL employees are useless... but many are. I have had so much misinformation given to me, and I have heard so much misinformation given out to others by pet shop staff that I know for a fact lots of employees have no idea... Some examples:

"You don't need to give the tarantula any substrate to dig in, just a layer of sand is fine.. same as the scorpions"
"Conures only eat seeds in the wild so just buy some sunfllower seeds from Woolies every month or so"
"This is a spotted children's python" (no such thing, of course)

Also, dog and cats are year round breeders mate, they don't have a breeding season so that's a bit more misinformation right there.

The definition of impulse buying is not 'going into to the store to buy the puppy for $300' it's people going into the store for a different reason or to look around and seeing the puppy and going OH LET'S GET IT LOOK HOW CUTE IT IS!


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## snakehandler (Jun 12, 2010)

I have been into stores with staff who have a variety of animals and they try to sell me product that I dont need, that does not benefit the animal and is overpriced......A pet store like any other business has to make money to survive, if any breeder actually believes that they are only doing it for self interest then instead of selling the animals, give them away


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## BJC-787 (Jun 12, 2010)

> Also, dog and cats are year round breeders mate, they don't have a breeding season so that's a bit more misinformation right there.


 
maybe in the hotter parts of the country, but not down this way, in summer we can get offered upto 3 litters of kittens a day but in winter and uptil November-December we are lucky to get offered a litter a month.



> The definition of impulse buying is not 'going into to the store to buy the puppy for $300' it's people going into the store for a different reason or to look around and seeing the puppy and going OH LET'S GET IT LOOK HOW CUTE IT IS!


 
so in that case i impulse buy as i went to the frog and reptile expo just to look and left with 2 snakes, and there have been numerous threads on here of went somewhere and left with a snake or lizard.



> I have been into stores with staff who have a variety of animals and they try to sell me product that I dont need, that does not benefit the animal and is overpriced


 
when someone comes into the store and asks for some thing i always give them at least 2 choices, example, ask me about heating for a snake i tell them about lights, mats, cords, rocks, and explain the differences and advantages and disadvantages of each and let them choose.
also you hear of people saying that the store told me i don't need a thermostat, so that is the complete opposite situation.


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## PhilK (Jun 12, 2010)

BJC-787 said:


> so in that case i impulse buy as i went to the frog and reptile expo just to look and left with 2 snakes, and there have been numerous threads on here of went somewhere and left with a snake or lizard.


 Precisely.


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## BJC-787 (Jun 12, 2010)

my point made by that comment is that we don't need petshops to impulse buy, and just because it is a spare of the moment thing doesn't mean they don't have the things they need to look after it


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## PhilK (Jun 12, 2010)

BJC-787 said:


> my point made by that comment is that we don't need petshops to impulse buy, and just because it is a spare of the moment thing doesn't mean they don't have the things they need to look after it


 I disagree wholeheartedly. People generally do not impulse buy reptiles from a petshop as they need a licence.. impulse buying reptiles is therefore done by people who have licences and generally have read up... any bogan off the street can walk in and buy a puppy for his kid's birthday, and then when it is a bit older and not so cute anymore they can get rid of it.
Animal purchases on the spur of the moment are not good, no matter what you say - one should always research and consider a pet before impulse buying one.


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## hypochondroac (Jun 12, 2010)

Agreeing with PhilK here.

When it comes to puppies from pet stores the majority of them are crossbreds, do you know how many people have walked into my grooming parlour only to tell me that the pet store or 'breeder' they bought the pup from said the 'breed' only needs grooming once or twice a year.

These people can't be prepared for what they are going to get in a crossbred dog and half the time they are lied to anyway.. so when mister 'spoodle' who ends up being the size of a standard poodle gets too big and jumps on the kids - he gets sent to the pound, or when the owners find out that their labradoodle/spoodle thing matts up twice as easily as a purebred poodle without very regular grooming they wonder whether they want to spend the money.


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## BJC-787 (Jun 12, 2010)

isn't it just as easy to open the paper and see a puppy or kitten for free and decide to get it or driving along a street and see a sign for a puppy or kitten and decide to get it, people are more likely to impulse and get one for free out of the paper or backyard than pay $300+ for one in a pet shop


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## Serpentess (Jun 12, 2010)

The people who work at the petshop that I frequent keep their animals in large, clean enclosures...

BUT

1. They feed their snakes live food. Not good. I've seen an adult mouse running around in an adult Spotted's enclosure before... I've also seen 3-4 pinkie mice squirming on the floor of the enclosure which had a few hatchling spotteds. I was really not happy about that.

2. The people there don't know the difference between frozen rats and frozen mice (apart from the adult rats, of course). Really, it is quite ridiculous.

P.S. I'm sorry if my grammar is off, or if I am off-topic. Had quite a few beers.


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## hypochondroac (Jun 12, 2010)

People are usually going to the pet store to get goods for their other dog/s or just wandering a main street when they come across a pet store.. if they've got the money and they have a 'special bond' with a pup they will buy it, to get a puppy out of the trading post or somewhere similar they have to be physically looking for one in the right section and even if they see one they like the look of.. it's a picture, not a real live precious puppy. Much easier to resist.


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## Tegstep (Jun 12, 2010)

Who here hasnt walked into most metro pet shops and just thought "I smell Parvo..."?
Ive worked in a pet shop, and the staff there did their best, but they were not properly educated, frequently gave bad advice (not out of negligence, but out of ignorance and thinking they were correct), and we knew the stock we got in was pure crap. Being part of a chain you can't do anything about that. 
There's some really great privately owned pet stores, but thats a supreme minority. 

Pet shops should be for supplies, registered breeders should provide the livestock (all species).
Personally I'm for licenses to own dogs, cats, birds, etc as well as reptiles. (and while we're at it, how about for having kids


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## butters (Jun 12, 2010)

I work in the pet industry and have for over 20 years in one form or another. At present I manage a store.

We don't sell dogs or cats and never will. Why?

Because there are plenty of perfectly good animals available at the RSPCA or Animal Welfare. 

I cop heaps from customers when I explain to them why we don't sell them and can understand why some stores give in and stock them. At the end of the day a business should provide what its customer wants and if it can do it in the right manner I see no reason why they shouldn't.

I always get a laugh out of these threads and the generalizations that are made about sectors of the industry.

I could stock normal light bulbs in the store and no one would buy them. Why? Because it doesn't have a pretty picture of a reptile on it. I agree Snakehandler in that many instances a normal bulb would do just as well and that is exactly what I use myself but to be honest I only use one in my Hosmers enclosure as they really need a basking spot. Everything else is heat mats or heat cord. I use fluoros for a light source and the UV component. Do they have to have UV? Probably not to stay alive but it definitely makes a difference in behaviour and colouration for many reptiles and amphibians.

Some people need to have a picture to make them feel they are doing the right thing. Same goes for all of those so called needless products. If you don't feel they are necessary then don't use them. I don't use many of them myself but have numerous customers who swear by them. If it does no harm to the animal, possibly a little good, then what is wrong with that? I can't fault people for trying to give their animals the best (in their eyes) even if I think it is unnecessary.

As for mark up most people have an inflated idea of how much pet shops make out of selling products. I can tell you that in my store (which is pretty much average) we have nothing that we make over 40% gross profit. Overheads still have to come out of that. I have never worked in a store that has the 300-500% markup that I often see posted on here. You would never sell anything with a markup like that. There is a thing called competition and someone is always cheaper than you. Any store that prices themselves out of the market won't be around for long.

All of our animal enclosures (what little we have) are cleaned daily. Same goes for the other stores I have been in. How many of you clean every enclosure daily?Hell the fish even get a daily automatic water change!

Whilst I agree there are stores out there that should be shut down and some that leave a lot to be desired there are still plenty out there who care about animals and do whatever it takes to keep their animals healthy and happy as well as provide as much information to prospective owners as possible. Hell I have people ring me or email me at midnight for information. I still get emails from customers of a previous shop I worked at for advice.

Not all pet shops are bad and not everything about pet shops is bad but if the one near you is.....then don't (insert choice word) use it!!

As for staff. If you can find me staff with an encyclopedial knowledge of everything needed for every species possible, that will work for slightly above shop assistants wage (remember if I have to pay them big bucks the price on products goes up)...let me know. 


Lots of things would be nice but then I wake up and realise I am in the real world.


Cheers Andrew


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## Serpentess (Jun 12, 2010)

Tegstep said:


> Personally I'm for licenses to own dogs, cats, birds, etc as well as reptiles. (and while we're at it, how about for having kids



+1


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## butters (Jun 12, 2010)

I whole heartedly agree that cats should be licensed. Dogs, reptiles and some birds already are.

Personally I don't think we should be allowed to keep cats in Australia but the horse has already bolted there. 
At the very least they should be licensed and not allowed to leave the house or an enclosure.


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## Serpentess (Jun 12, 2010)

butters said:


> I whole heartedly agree that cats should be licensed. Dogs, reptiles and some birds already are.
> 
> Personally I don't think we should be allowed to keep cats in Australia but the horse has already bolted there.
> At the very least they should be licensed and not allowed to leave the house or an enclosure.


 Dogs aren't licenced.
They're registered. But not licenced. 
If you want a dog you don't buy a licence, you buy the dog then go and register it. But half the people I know don't even do that.


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## butters (Jun 12, 2010)

Very true but there is still some sort of regulation in place. 
Many reptile keepers don't bother either.
You can let your cat do pretty much whatever you (or they) want and there are few repercussions. The same rules don't apply for dogs.


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## PhilK (Jun 12, 2010)

BJC-787 said:


> isn't it just as easy to open the paper and see a puppy or kitten for free and decide to get it or driving along a street and see a sign for a puppy or kitten and decide to get it, people are more likely to impulse and get one for free out of the paper or backyard than pay $300+ for one in a pet shop


 It is just as easy for people to do that, you're right... but in order to go to the page of the paper where the puppies are for sale they would need to be thinking "I wonder what pets are for sale" - not so impulsive.

But I see what you're trying to see - it is easy for people to, say, drive past a house with a KITTENS 4 SALE sign on it.. but it is much easier to enforce the prohibition of selling puppies and kittens from pet stores than it is from backyards.

EDIT: just realised hypochondroac said what I am saying already.



butters said:


> Not all pet shops are bad and not everything about pet shops is bad but if the one near you is.....then don't (insert choice word) use it!!


 
I don't think anybody here said all pet shops are bad? In fact it has been stated numerous times in this thread that there are lots of GOOD pet shops around.. the thread was started with the question of why we DON'T buy from pet shops, so naturally we are focusing on the bad.


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## Kristy_07 (Jun 13, 2010)

Totally agree with everything butters said - having worked in pet shops in the same city, these are my conclusions exactly, also. Particularly about the number of people who clean, not spot-clean but CLEAN, all their enclosures everyday 

Phil, I think butters's point is that a lot of people make generalisations about pet shops and the way the work, and then use them to condemn the whole industry. I've seen plenty of posts of people emphatically stating they won't buy from pet shops because of reasons a, b, and c, without stopping to consider whether those reasons are true of all shops. 

I also agree with BJC-787 - I think it's just as easy, if not easier, to impulse buy CHEAPER puppies and kittens from the paper or online local sale sites, than it is to justify a puppy that is, usually, at least $400 from a pet shop. I sold a lot of puppies and kittens (and rats and birds and fish), but almost none went to people that had simply walked past the shop, with no intention whatsoever of buying an animal in the near future. There were plenty that were thinking of getting pets, saw that particular animal, fell in love, and went home with them. But not many that had no intention at all. Just as easy to make an impulse decision from seeing a sign on the road, or an ad in the paper, IMO.


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## PhilK (Jun 13, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Phil, I think butters's point is that a lot of people make generalisations about pet shops and the way the work, and then use them to condemn the whole industry. I've seen plenty of posts of people emphatically stating they won't buy from pet shops because of reasons a, b, and c, without stopping to consider whether those reasons are true of all shops.


Hey Kristy,
Yes you're right of course and I'm not denying that it is true a lot of people generalise all shops.. but this is true of our world.

"All tradies are lazy and useless" is one I have heard a lot and isn't true.

"All piggeries are horrid disgusting places" is an especially good one I feel. During our studies we have been in plenty of different piggeries and the great majority are beautifully clean and well managed systems with happy pigs, but you ask Joe Public what he thinks of piggeries and he will wax lyrical about how terrible and cruel they are based on some selective shots of one he saw on a PETA campaign.

Even stuff like "all Asian people are good at maths" and "all old people are bad drivers" ... generalisations are a very real part of every day life, so this is why people think so of pet shops.



> I also agree with BJC-787 - I think it's just as easy, if not easier, to impulse buy CHEAPER puppies and kittens from the paper or online local sale sites, than it is to justify a puppy that is, usually, at least $400 from a pet shop. I sold a lot of puppies and kittens (and rats and birds and fish), but almost none went to people that had simply walked past the shop, with no intention whatsoever of buying an animal in the near future. There were plenty that were thinking of getting pets, saw that particular animal, fell in love, and went home with them. But not many that had no intention at all. Just as easy to make an impulse decision from seeing a sign on the road, or an ad in the paper, IMO.


That's fair enough but I still don't really think of it as impulse buying if you turn the paper to that page, or search a website selling puppies... I know pet shops make people impulse buy because I have certainly impulse bought from my local! I bought 2 crayfish from there, at exorbitant prices and I can thank that same store for my little parrot companion who I am in love with after he escaped from his display and crawled up my leg - I bought him the next day.

If I (a seemingly rational individual haha) can make such impulse buys why can other people not? I have certainly seen it happen with the $90 kittens at that shop.


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Jun 13, 2010)

I made the HUGE mistake of buying a puppy of the mutt title "Moodle" from an irresponsible backyard breeder - who bred their dogs while the dogs were really young. Only six months later did I get educated, so now when people ask what breed he is I just say 'Poodle mix' or 'Mutt'  Damn breeders charged me $1000 for him too...but he's a good dog none the less, just not from a very good background. Next time I'm using the shelter - puppies are cuter but I prefer getting adult dogs, puppies pee everywhere, chew everything and always run off.


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## snakeluvver (Oct 3, 2010)

I got mine from a pet store but they were kept in great condition, the lady really looked after them well, she was really helpful.


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## 1issie (Oct 3, 2010)

Fantazmic said:


> its because of the ethics of some petshops......and the support they give after the pet is bought.
> also the conditions the animals are kept in are often not that great and it is stressful for animals to be in petshops (people tapping on glass noise size of enclosure disease etc) Also pet shops also dont talk to people thoroughly enough about the keeping of the animal etc.....more interested in selling the animal for a quick buck. I know some breeders can do all of these things too....but reputable breeders with a good reputation are there for you for the life of the animal and you dont have to look tooo hard to find someone good who will support and mentor you in the keeping of your animal....there are some wonderful people on this site...and you dont have to look too hard to find them.
> 
> I think probably my opinions stem from the terrible puppy farming that goes on in the dog breeding world and pet shops really perpetuate that.
> ...



1+,my mum hates them expept breeders.


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## leighroy6 (Oct 3, 2010)

one pet store i went into once had a coastal python that was submerged in its water bowl so i asked someone why the coastal was doin it, and the pet store MANAGER said he wasnt sure why but it had been doin it alot lately......so it either had mites or the temperatures were way to high, i agree very strongly with kristy, some pet stores shouldnt be allowed to keep certain animals or reptiles if they dont know exactly how to look after them properly and pass on usefull knowledge to the people buying pets from them


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## JAS101 (Oct 3, 2010)

leighroy6 said:


> one pet store i went into once had a coastal python that was submerged in its water bowl so i asked someone why the coastal was doin it, and the pet store MANAGER said he wasnt sure why but it had been doin it alot lately......so it either had mites or the temperatures were way to high, i agree very strongly with kristy, some pet stores shouldnt be allowed to keep certain animals or reptiles if they dont know exactly how to look after them properly and pass on usefull knowledge to the people buying pets from them


 that wasnt in carrum downs was it ? if it was the store now has new owners .


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## leighroy6 (Oct 3, 2010)

nah a pet store in geelong


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## hypochondroac (Oct 3, 2010)

One of my customers got their 'cavoodle' DNA tested, supposedly a pure cavy mixed with a pure toy poodle. DNA test identified six different breeds, first on the list was greyhound.


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## JAS101 (Oct 3, 2010)

leighroy6 said:


> nah a pet store in geelong


 ahh ok , cause i had seen a coastal do the same in carrum downs .


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## Elapidae1 (Oct 3, 2010)

Is puppy farming ethically worse than snake farming?


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## hypochondroac (Oct 3, 2010)

Yes, snakes are designed to reproduce in greater numbers than dogs are.
The exploitation of any animal is wrong but there are alot more points you have to consider with dogs, space, grooming etc. It's more costly and therefore when taken advantage of the animal is often used in the same way when it's in worse condition.


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## 1issie (Oct 3, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Is puppy farming ethically worse than snake farming?


 
Hummmm,good Q.Both breed the hell out of the animals and most have terrible cage and enclosures id say the same.:x


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## 1issie (Oct 3, 2010)

opps now i agree with *hypochondroac*.


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## Elapidae1 (Oct 3, 2010)

That was a quick jump of the fence. What about rows and rows of tiny click clacks wall to wall, floor to ceiling housing snakes in little more than a battery system? hmmm. The act of keeping a snake/snakes is exploitative regardless, as it's self gratification.


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 3, 2010)

steve1 - I've been starting to wonder the same thing.... so far, still deciding.


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## hypochondroac (Oct 3, 2010)

Each snake doesn't need milk from mumma, worming, interaction etc and they don't poop like twenty million times a day. They do better with less involvement.

The answer is almost too obvious.


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## dpeica (Oct 3, 2010)

****


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## hypochondroac (Oct 3, 2010)

**** off.


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 3, 2010)

Woah... 

Anyway, agreed hypo.... but almost bare tubs with little or no stimulation in the environment surely can't be good, either?

Bringing it back to pet shops, I could see the argument that puppies don't have much to do in pet shop cages, either. But, most puppies and kittens are only in-shop for a week or less, certainly not usually more than 2 weeks at the most, and are given heaps of attention by staff all day (one of the perks of the jobs  ). Someone with 100+ hatchies doesn't have time for any of this interaction, and in my opinion (don't worry, it's JUST my opinion!), heat, a hide, and a water bowl aren't enough for a snake for more than the first few months of life.


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## hypochondroac (Oct 3, 2010)

I know what you're saying Kristy but the part about snakes needing more than heat, a hide and a water bowl is arguable. Personally i want my reptiles to have a natural setting but i don't doubt they'd do just as well without it or in a tub.


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 3, 2010)

I suspect there's just more than one way to skin a cat  I'm trying to find a balance that I'm happy with in keeping my reps (and dogs, rats, boyfriend, etc.)


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## Elapidae1 (Oct 4, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> I suspect there's just more than one way to skin a cat  I'm trying to find a balance that I'm happy with in keeping my reps (and dogs, rats, boyfriend, etc.)



I hope your boyfriend isn't kept in a click clack, LOL. 

I felt like stirring the pot with this thread, personally I don't know where i stand on this, but prefer to give my snakes the extra space, may change my mind as the collection grows.


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 4, 2010)

He's 6th tall & his shed is 12ft long, and he's got water, so that's okay, right? :lol:


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## damian83 (Oct 4, 2010)

i never got my dragons from a pet shop but was going to...
they were pricy but the young lady there at nerang WAS helpful she was talking to all the customers in the reptile area about the needs and care of the pythons and i was quite impressed....
some shops do tend to try and sell things un-necissarily but it depends who you talk to
its good if you know people to ask after you have purchased whether they're shop's or friends, coz everyone will need advice at somepoint


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## LadyJ (Oct 4, 2010)

I walked into a petshop the the other day... ALL the fighing fish were dead or dying, I recorded it, sending it off to someone who might appreciate it.

Anyway, I walked into another petshop and asked for feeder rats, the lady said, "ooh... I think we only... like... have dead ones sorry...". I"m like, "wut... ?", aren't they supposed to be dead? But anyway, I put my little baggy of rats on the counter and when she finally touched them she burst out giggling. Excuse me, but I find that ridiculous...

At least said petshop has a display area at the back where animals come in at different times from shelters for adoption - that's why I like that petshop. Why don't more make use of this?


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## persona (Oct 4, 2010)

Petshops are a buisness, buisness bottom line is $ at the end of the day.
Comes down to collective bad experience being the norm unfortunately.
Full kudos to the rare few who have such a buisness because they are passionate about living things.


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## aussiereptilekid (Nov 16, 2010)

hey i bought my blue tongue and children's python from a pet store when i got the bluey it was $100 and it took like an hour to get cause of all the faxing stuff and that first there fax machine was broken and then one of the workers in the pet shop told me to put the bluey down while i was checking if it was all in good shape luckily my mum was there haha. and my children's python was all right it took not that long so yer thnx


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## AllThingsReptile (Nov 16, 2010)

my few local petshops are quite good, one shop is not as good, and they arent that badly over priced.well the not so good shop is.....the good shops give genuine helpful advice, are local, so you can go back, im in one of them that they know me, say hi, we talk about my beardies etc.
atm i would rather buy from petshops,1. because really, after freight prices,import/export permits, they are actually almost the same price....2, there arent many (or any) breeders around my area..


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## giggle (Nov 16, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> I'm not sure I totally understand why some people won't buy livestock from pet shops...
> 
> I was hoping that someone could explain this to me?



You naughty naughty troll!  You should be flogged for this xD


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## snakeluvver (Nov 16, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> He's 6th tall & his shed is 12ft long, and he's got water, so that's okay, right? :lol:


 
Don't handle him until 2 days after eating... He may get a bit snappy  :lol:


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## Kristy_07 (Nov 16, 2010)

giggle said:


> You naughty naughty troll!  You should be flogged for this xD


 
Who? Me? 

No, I genuinely did want to know people's opinions - I worked in pet shops when I was younger, and we always took exceptional care of the animals, so I couldn't understand why all shops were being painted with the same brush, so to speak. It was an educational experience.


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## giggle (Nov 16, 2010)

The reason I don't like pet shops is because they are the prime source for puppy farmers and backyard breeders to offload their 'product'. People buy long lived animals on impulse without doing the appropriate research. How many sharpei are purchased from pet stores! Cute little 'rolly dogs' bred by puppy farmers. You can guarantee those dogs have shocking skin conditions and shockingly bad hip dysplasia! 
Whats more, the buyer is not screened by the petshop... I could walk in and buy a puppy and be taking that puppy home to a fenceless yard or to feed to my albino african lion and no one in that petshop would be the wiser 

Rescue organisations and ethical breeders have a screening process, they have actual guarantees which stretch the lifetime of the animal and not just the first 48 hours... and when push comes to shove, the rescue org or breeder will take back the pet in an emergency whether its still young and sale worthy or not. 
I once developed severe allergies within the month after buying a kitten from a petshop... I took it back only to be told it was too old for them to take (after only 1 month!). I pointed out it was free, I expected no money, I just needed help... no go. Luckily she turned out to be rather popular when I endured another week of not being able to breathe to have her sold the second the weekend paper came out... and she further more went to a lovely home. 

Even the nicest pet shops should not sell long lived or complex animals. Small animals, perhaps. Dogs, cats, parrots and reptiles... no. 

My mother has a dog she bought from a petshop way back when she knew no better. It has luxating patella, severely undershot jaw, severely roached back and tumours on its lungs! The dog is so undershot its teeth perminantly stick out of its mouth and it cant eat food unless its put on a flat surface so he can turn his head sideways to pick it up!!!

BTW: the kittens sale worthiness may have come from the fact I have had dogs all my life and was a keen dog trainers... so when I got my cat I taught her a bunch of tricks LOL So she begged on command and gave a high five


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## Snakewise84 (Nov 16, 2010)

i got my female spotted from a pet shop under weight and size for her age


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## sezzle1 (Nov 16, 2010)

Sorry, I didn't read all of the posts so forgive me if i'm repeating what has already been said.

I used to work in a petshop, as the manager of the reptile department. I used to get into trouble for spending too much time talking to customers and giving them free advice, instead of selling them things. We used to have reptiles (mostly turtles) die on a weekly basis because they did not give me and my collegues enough time to look after them properly. We were required to be on the shop floor for the majority of the time, dusting and facing shelves, in between stalking customers and trying to get them to buy things. My boss tried to get me to feed live pinkie mice to snakes that weren't eating and we were also forced to sell live rodents to people that we knew were going to feed them to snakes. Don't even get me started on the terrible living conditions and lack of medical care that the birds, puppies, kittens and small animals received. And this is a PIAA certified/ member store. We just used to make the place look shmick and dodge everything up on days that we knew we were being inspected.

When I worked there, i felt like I was selling my soul. I felt like I was comprimising on all of my beliefs as an animal lover. I hated every minute of it. And this was a store that i spent over $100 a week at. I was a regular customer because, from the outside looking in, I thought they were fantastic. I think that if you want to buy a pet, even a mouse or a fish, you should have to find a reputable breeder and by from them. art least then people would not be able to impulse buy.


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## Hiver (Nov 16, 2010)

*Reptile shop*

Check these guys out, this is where i used to buy my reptiles from
Vivarium, live food & supplies for your reptile there in the UK but gives you an idea.


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## snakehandler (Nov 16, 2010)

Its interesting to read about backyard breeders with dogs and cats, but what people are forgetting is that most people selling reptiles are backyard breeders too.....so many people decide that it is an easy way to make some cash, spit out 20-50 hatchies each year, this will fund my other projects.......if you want to be serious about it then register as a business, declare your income and be ethical about where you sell them. What background checking do you do as a breeder when you sell your reptiles? Currently the reptile breeding industry is a backyard industry

As a dog breeder we screen each and every person who wants one of our dogs, interview them and make sure that we are prepared to take an animal back should something go wrong. I am not saying this is what should be happening with reptiles, but before you brand all pet stores with the "we support backyard breeding and puppy farming" label, you should look within the very hobby you are in right now!

What is the primary purpose of having 10-15 adults of one species, to breed and sell the offspring......this is commercial, this is snake farming.......just the same as puppy farming!


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## Tornacade (Jan 5, 2011)

PhilK said:


> 3. Sell them at retardedly high prices


talk about it eh? lmao i was in a pet shop a few weeks ago, i saw scorpions for $165, bird eating spiders for $145 and the funniest of them all $50 for a hermit crab


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## Gibblore (Jan 5, 2011)

Haven't read all this thread sorry. I bought a trio of Levis form a shop about 1 year ago.

Reason for doing so was not price as they were $900. But all three animals where half dead!!! I asked if they misted these geckos so they could drink & the shop assistant replyed with i'am not sure what you mean we give them a water bowl for that. I bargined with the owner and got the trio for $750 what a bargin lol. On the agreement that he would not get them again as he wont sell them and dosn't know how to care for them he said he wouldn't. 2 months later I go back in to show him pic's of animals recovery And the @#%! has more dying geckos at outragous prices. Truley an honurable pet shop owner who deserves all our suppor in buying animals form him.


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## PhilK (Jan 5, 2011)

Exactly the reason you should NEVER buy animals from pet shops to save them. By doing so you have proved to the owner that people will buy his animals no matter how he keeps them... it sounds harsh but you mustn't give them business by "rescuing animals" as it will encourage them to get more.


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## FusionMorelia (Jan 5, 2011)

all chain pet shops should either be banned on severely regulated, almost all pet shops employ people who want a job not people who love animals, apart from the SUPER inflated priced at these places its about puppy farms, poor information, and poor hygiene practices not to mention the sheer lack of respect for me the consumer and the animals in their "care"


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## snakehandler (Jan 5, 2011)

Its interesting to note that a large pet store chain is a sponsor of this site, perhaps some input from them about ethical sales, correct information and other points raised would be useful. Some pet stores are ethical, other are not....its really up to the public to decide what is right and wrong, and only buy from places they get the right service, this varies for every person.

I had a callout to a person who's pet lizard got free, he bought it from a breeder, not a store, was told they are great pets, when I got there it was a lace monitor that had shredded him on several occasions, he was frightened of it, he literally gave it to me, he had NEVER kept a reptile before.....obviously its not just pet stores that give out bad information!


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## Waterrat (Jan 5, 2011)

It's hard to expect a correct information on reptiles in a pet shop, unless the owner or the staff are experienced reptile keepers. Most of them are not. Many owners are just business people operating their pet shop like any other business and many of the staff they employ are kids (on the lowest wages imaginable) who love animals but don't know much about them. To sell reptiles and give correct advice requires an expert, not just someone who completed 2 week course.


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## Gibblore (Jan 5, 2011)

Yea Phill I wont be doing that again thats for sure, But it's hard these these creatures kept so poorly. The worst was one I saw down the gold coast they would have had over 50 baby beardies all in indivudal chinease containes stacked on top of each other in a snake inclouser I could see at least six that were dead and more that looked close but was told they wern't feeling the best & will pick up. Some had fuzzy mold over the corpses so mabey they could take a little longer to recover i guess? But I didn't relise you could bring animals back from the dead, how silly of me but my local shop has bought me up to speed.


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## mungus (Jan 5, 2011)

I've delt with both parties [ back yard breeders and pet shops ]
Had bad dealings with both [ some very highly rated breeders i might add] over a very, very long period of time.
What does this tell you ?


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## Gibblore (Jan 5, 2011)

That people that only do it for money only care about money


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## miss_khalli (Jan 5, 2011)

I didn't read all the posts (far too many, most saying the same things) so sorry if I repeat anything.. 

I have experienced the type of Pet Stores no one should be caught dead buying from, but I have also worked in a few very good ones over the years. Not all the staff are young, naive kids.. Yes, major chains (not naming names) hire young kids because they are cheap. I managed one such store, where the area manager kept bringing in 15 yr old kids who dropped out of school and thought working would be so much easier. That they would get paid to "play witht the puppies all day".. Man did they get the shock of their life working for me.. I also experienced some staff members who were all too willing to learn all I had to teach them (with over 6 years vet nursing experience, and a lifetime of animal keeping).. Unfortunately I left this position because of the "money hungry" Fat Cats who cared more about new cars and trips than the animals we were caring for..
I also had the pleasure of working for a wonderful store which sold reptiles as well as other animals.. Staff were educated and "tested" on our knowledge, and if we were unsure we always had experienced staff members there to help.. It was NOT AT ALL about the quick sale.. If someone enquired about an animal it was our responsibility to discuss that animals feeding and care with the customer, and take them through the different products they would need to keep their animal happy and healthy. 
All our animals were kept in spacious enclosures which were cleaned daily (or as much as needed in regards to puppies and kittens); precations were taken to minimise risk of infection; and all animals were given any and all treatments necessary to keep them healthy..

I can see both sides of this "discussion", but don't be so quick to judge Pet Stores. Take the time to check out the conditions for yourself first..


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