# Butterfly id



## hornet (Dec 27, 2007)

just wondering if anyone knows what this is, its wingspan is about 2cm.


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## Moreliaman (Dec 27, 2007)

Looks like some sort of lycaenidae ..to be specific id say its one of the blues (polyommatinae), not sure wich one though


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## hornet (Dec 27, 2007)

any idea what sort of plants the young feed on?


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## Moreliaman (Dec 27, 2007)

lol...no idea mate, they all feed on different stuff, some feed on plants for a few weeks & then get taken in by ants & feed on ant larvae/pupa in the final stages... that one looks like its quite old as its a bit tatty & faded...looks like a male too.

You'd need to post a pic of it with wings open to get a positive id, try giving it some sunshine or a light so it opens its wings to bask & warm up.


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## hornet (Dec 27, 2007)

i've been interested in this species for a while, once i find more bout their life cycle would love to try and breed them.


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## Moreliaman (Dec 27, 2007)

Very difficult if its one that feeds on ant larve, if you know what it looks like with wings open i just found this site you could try...... http://www-staff.mcs.uts.edu.au/~don/larvae/lyca/lycaenidae.html


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## hornet (Dec 27, 2007)

yea if it is one that needs ant larvae at some stage i wont even bother. Just been searching that site but cant really tell what sp.


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## Nephrurus (Dec 27, 2007)

theres an excellent butterfly ID book. Handbook of Australian Butterflies..... it's great, clear photos and plenty of info like larval foodplant. SHould be available on Andrew Isles online bookshop.

-H


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## ace#74 (Dec 27, 2007)

a butterfly


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## Moreliaman (Dec 27, 2007)

About 3/4 of them do, i'd look for a site on butterflies of queensland to ID it, but its hard to ID it from the underside as some of them vary in pattern, you could go out & catch 10 of the same specie & all of them could have slightly different markings on the underwings.


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## scorps (Dec 27, 2007)

a moth?


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## Miss_Croft (Dec 28, 2007)

*Common grass blue (Zizina labradus) (male)*

Moreliaman – My understanding of Lycaebudae is: they are taken in by ants – but normally eat vegetation (mistletoe) with exception of the ant blues. The experts have no idea what the ant blues eat – all they know is their caterpillars live their entire life in an ants nest. 

When I was a kid I use to catch the lava and raise them to butterflies – I would search the bush for the ants, then place a piece of wood with holes to simulate a good home. Often I would get caterpillars or pupa. I raised the caterpillars on apple as a change of mistletoe plant may kill them (Side note – A good mistletoe substitute is apple). 

You are right the adults will only lay eggs where ants live – Each butterfly species will work with a different type of ants – their caterpillars smell like that type of ant. 

If you are seriously want to breed one of the butterflies that require ants then:
Find out what they eat (Often mistletoe) – in the case of mistletoe grow a host tree – in spring get some mistletoe berries – place seeds on a low hanging branch of your chosen tree (Mistletoe will often grow on introduced deciduous trees like plums). I am happy to talk a little about mistletoe.

Once you have the food source then source out the ants – I would do this by cutting a branch and attaching to the host tree. (Note you will have to feed the ants – most probably on agar, honey and sugar.) Each blue takes a different ant or even a different ant subspecies.

That said – I suggest the butterfly in the photo is one of the common grass blues (Zizina labradus) – see http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_blues/CommonGrassBlue.htm

As their name suggests – their caterpillars eat grass (Clover). I doubt they have interaction with ants as previously mentioned. 

Side note: NEVER take any living or non-living object from a national park or nature reserve and many of the blues are now protected species. As such it is illegal to catch, breed or interfere with protected insects.


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## lil_ben (Dec 28, 2007)

lol @ scorps


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## Moreliaman (Dec 28, 2007)

Very interesting Miss_Croft....sounds like you had a childhood similar to mine....fascinated by insects & constantly bringing stuff home..
(My mother’s constant thoughts every time I came home were...."god what’s he brought home this time?":lol: )....I’m sure you also know that lycaenidae is the second largest family of butterflies which contain around 6000 different species worldwide. 
As for the Blues (polyommatinae) not all of them feed on the same particular species of plant & not all of them depend solely on 1 specie of ant, as you’ve already mentioned some don’t even need ants to complete their life cycle & some have been known to use 2-3 or more different species of ants.

The experts do have some idea what some of the ant blues eat.... some of them stay on the food plant & eat aphids, secreting a sugar solution (like aphids) and are protected by the ants in much the same way aphids are..... Some of them still produce the sugar secretions, but instead eat ant larvae (as observed by small cameras that have been placed inside ants nests) & not all of their caterpillars live their entire life in an ants nest. 

I have heard of some them being able to produce pheromones that imitate the smell of the host ant species which helps the ants in finding them (although like you say.. more research is needed & is being done) I do know that like aphids some can produce a sweet solution that the ants find attractive & some can produce sounds or vibrations that could possibly communicate with the ants & in some cases the ants take this valuable food source that can also resemble their own pupae (some produce sounds & vibrations that mimic the ants larvae) back to the brood chamber in the nest where it is protected by the ants & much safer underground where it completes its life cycle....some will also over winter as pupae, like the large blue (Maculinea arion)

[SIZE=+0]Thanks for suggesting a possible ID on the butterfly, we were struggling here & I’m not too familiar with the Australian species, however I did google the name you gave & the info I got back claimed that this particular species is sometimes attended by ants[/SIZE]

http://www.jcu.edu.au/discovernature/butterfliescommon/JCUDEV_005824.html

This page gives a larger list of foodplants
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~rbg/labradus_ds.htm

Good luck hornet....let us know how you get on


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## Miss_Croft (Dec 28, 2007)

I think the ant blue that eats ant larva you are referring to is what they call the butterfly moth (it lives in a green ant nest) and it feeds on the ants and ant larva. The ants try and eject them from their nest. The ones I use to catch would secrete a sugary substance much like aphids. 

The caterpillar is offered the following:
 Protection 
 Cleaning of fungus (their caterpillars are very sensitive to fungus) 
 Somewhere to shelter from the elements (Both cold and heat) 

You are right the caterpillars do communicate with the ants by both pheromones (Generally ant specific) and vibrations. 

But the common grass blues are very common in Australia. If you open your eyes you will see them nearly anywhere you travel. I have seen them from far south of Victoria to Queensland. 

I chose the common grass blue due to the line around edge of the wing and size is about 2 cm. The blues I use to grow out were much larger and have a strong pattern under the wings.


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## Moreliaman (Dec 28, 2007)

You might want to check that, theres quite a few specie of lycaenidae butterfly larvae that are known to eat ant larvae, i know the large blue here does & seeing as youve got around 150 different species of lycaenidae in aus, im sure there must be a few species in aus that do, I wouldnt have thought its just isolated to the large blue. 
Whats this moth you are referring too ??? sounds interesting...any latin name ?
I cant wait to come over & start seeing some of youre australian stuff....im bored with the british stuff now...we only have about 120ish species of butterlfies here:lol:


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## Moreliaman (Dec 28, 2007)

Here you go miss...... found this site which if you highlight a specie & click on submit it gives info on which species of australian lycaenidae that eat ant larvae (myrmecophageous)

http://flyaqis.mov.vic.gov.au/cgi-bin/texhtml?form=bio_entot


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## Miss_Croft (Dec 28, 2007)

I really only have experience with Ogyris (The ones I caught eat mistletoe and lived with some wood ants (Small red ants with a white tip on their admin) 

As for eating of the ant larva – Many of the caterpillars live in the ant nest and they have filmed (I have seen film of) what they call month butterfly (It is a type of ant blue that lives in a green ant nest). It looks much like a moth – I have only seen it on a documentary and here in the entomological groups it is given as the example of a "*Myrmecophageous*" butterfly. 

The truth is they only suspect the caterpillars eat the ant larva – they may be eating fungus or be fed by the ants within the colony. 

As with many insects, many of these butterflies have not been described by science. (Read if you find one it may be a “new” species).


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## scorps (Dec 28, 2007)

omg thijs is way to intence caterpilla talk


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## Miss_Croft (Dec 28, 2007)

*Moth Buterfly Liphyra brassolis*

http://www.usyd.edu.au/museums/larvae/lyca/brassol.html


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## Moreliaman (Dec 28, 2007)

That's fascinating miss, thanks for that link, although i notice that that species is also in the lycaenidae family, would be interesting for do some research on this species & others, i have seen actual footage of large blue larvae eating ant eggs & ant larvae, & im sure if 1 species does then other will for sure.....i think it was in a BBC doco a few years ago, infact im sure there was some in the recent "life in the undergrowth" series....I'll have to see if i can find it....was fascinating to watch & hear the larvae making the noises, it even continues through the pupal stage, right up to the day it hatches......amazing stuff.

Sorry Hornet.....we've hijacked youre thread !!


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## hornet (Dec 29, 2007)

no worries, interesting to read what you guys are saying.


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## Moreliaman (Dec 29, 2007)

Its really interesting stuff hornet & ive always found it fascinating, like most my intrest into entomology started at childhood & its sad to know that even now in this day & age some of the species that have been known to science for years, they still know nothing about their life cycles.
Scientists believe theres still millions of species of insects that have yet to be discovered & theres new species of insects being discovered everyday.

I looked at the BBC doco i was on about (Life in the Undergrowth no:5 - intimate relations) but it was'nt the large blue they filmed, it was the alcon blue (maculinea alcon) which doesnt eat ants, it just gets fed by them, interesting turn around though, as the larvae thinks its safe inside the ants nest, but a parasitic wasp is sometimes able to locate exactly which nests have larvae in them & can enter the nest releasing its own pheromone to confuse the ants so that they start attacking eachother, it then seeks out the larvae & injects it with its own parasitic egg!

I found a video on the BBC website about the large blue, it tells you that the larvae eat the ant young, but unfortunately doesnt actually show it in the clip:?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/nature/uk/record/1276


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## hornet (Dec 29, 2007)

i got the life in the undergrowth dvd a few weeks back, some amazing footage.


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