# Brumation question



## Pythonguy1 (Jun 26, 2020)

Hey guys, so I'v heard that some people brumate their snakes, does this mean that they cause their snakes to brumate? If so, how is it done? How important is it? Also, do the conditions have to be different or will they automatically go into brumation in winter? My stimson python went into brumation last year but this year he's getting more heat. Will this effect the brumation process? Any help would be absolutely awesome.
Thanks in advance, Josiah


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 26, 2020)

It's just a vague term for slowing down in the cool part of the year. You do it by cooling them down. Importance varies by species, ranging from critical to unimportant. Yes, more or less heat will affect them, they're reptiles, heat is the most important environmental factor for reptiles.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jun 26, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> Importance varies by species, ranging from critical to unimportant.


He's a stimson python. He's been burrowing under his paper closer to the heat mat to recieve more warmth. If I stop him from burrowing thus dercrease the amount of heat he's getting will that cause him to brumate?


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 26, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> He's a stimson python. He's been burrowing under his paper closer to the heat mat to recieve more warmth. If I stop him from burrowing thus dercrease the amount of heat he's getting will that cause him to brumate?



You seem to be looking at this as a digital concept when in reality it's analog. Don't try to stop him from burrowing, just turn down the heat if you want him cooler. At this time of year male Stimson's Pythons are naturally quite active; this is the peak mating season and they actively run around trying to find females. It's a challenge for them to do it in the coldest part of the year, but that means only the strongest manage to get the girls and only the best genes get passed to the next generation. It's not like when temperatures drop below a certain threshold they suddenly fall into complete torpor until they suddenly snap out of it later in the year.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jun 27, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> Don't try to stop him from burrowing, just turn down the heat if you want him cooler.


I'm using a heat mat and I dont have a thermostat, so I cant turn down the heat. Last year I had him on a different substrate and he couldn't burrow, so he was getting the same amount of heat from his mat all year round, but when winter came he went into brumation. I didn't turn down the heat or anything. 


Sdaji said:


> At this time of year male Stimson's Pythons are naturally quite active;


So then how important is it for him to brumate?


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 27, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> I'm using a heat mat and I dont have a thermostat, so I cant turn down the heat. Last year I had him on a different substrate and he couldn't burrow, so he was getting the same amount of heat from his mat all year round, but when winter came he went into brumation. I didn't turn down the heat or anything.



It would be worth improving your setup.



> So then how important is it for him to brumate?



Again, you're looking at an analog situation as though it was a digital situation. In other words, you seem to be thinking that he either is cold and dormant or hot and active, when in reality heat, metabolism and behaviour exist in broad spectra. It's relatively important to give him cooling, but again, this is an analog issue, not a digital one.

Get a thermostat and set up the heating properly.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jun 29, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> Get a thermostat and set up the heating properly.


Is there any way I can brumate him without a heat mat like I did last year?


----------



## nick_75 (Jun 29, 2020)

I'd make getting a thermostat your primary concern. Controlling temps in order to start or end brumation will be easier. How do you control temps currently, without a thermostat?


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 29, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Is there any way I can brumate him without a heat mat like I did last year?



You've asked for advice, take the advice or discard the advice. All I'm going to recommend is that you use a thermostat and a timer. If you have alternative ideas that's fine, go for it, but if you want to reinvent the wheel that's your choice and your venture.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jun 29, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> You've asked for advice, take the advice or discard the advice. All I'm going to recommend is that you use a thermostat and a timer. If you have alternative ideas that's fine, go for it, but if you want to reinvent the wheel that's your choice and your venture.


Thanks for your advise anyway Sdaji, I just didn't want to spend money on something I didn't need. If I'v brumated him before without a thermostat, I reckon I can do it again


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 29, 2020)

Good luck


----------



## Herpetology (Jun 29, 2020)

Josiah Rossic said:


> Thanks for your advise anyway Sdaji, I just didn't want to spend money on something I didn't need. If I'v brumated him before without a thermostat, I reckon I can do it again



When the mat overheats (not likely but **** happens) because u don’t want to spend 50$, let us know


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 29, 2020)

Herptology said:


> When the mat overheats (not likely but **** happens) because u don’t want to spend 50$, let us know



It probably won't, but a thermostat allows greater control over the temperature which exactly what he's trying to do in this situation. It's much easier to get the job done with a piece of equipment specifically designed to do it, which is why virtually everyone does it that way. You can skimp on the equipment and try to achieve the same result with creative methods if you want to. It's more difficult and more likely to give a bad result, but hey, it's possible and if he wants to do it, that's his choice. If he comes up with an unconventional method which works, good luck to him.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jun 29, 2020)

Herptology said:


> When the mat overheats (not likely but **** happens) because u don’t want to spend 50$, let us know


50$!! If I found one that cheap I'd certainly grab it. Also, I have heat mats without thermostats for all my snakes and none ever have overheated.


Sdaji said:


> Good luck


Thanks mate.


----------



## Ajar5 (Jun 29, 2020)

How did your enclosure change from last year other than substrate? They will usually brumate from naturally decreased ambient air temps and food availability. Is the enclosure well ventilated and in a cool place?


----------



## WizardFromAus- (Jun 30, 2020)

nick_75 said:


> I'd make getting a thermostat your primary concern. Controlling temps in order to start or end brumation will be easier. How do you control temps currently, without a thermostat?


I think some people this days just get a low watt and rely on thermostat built inside of them if ya get me.. thermostats is the way to go though for sure for more controle 

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jun 30, 2020)

I spent some time preparing this response and got interrupted by other things before I could finish it and post it. I realise the conversation has moved on in the meantime, but hopefully you might still find this of some value.

How do you recognise brumation? For many, the term ‘brumation’ conjures up images of a reptile being totally inactive for three or four months during winter, until the weather begins to warm up in spring. Yet this is not necessarily what happens. In nature, many reptile species come out and bask on sunny winter days. They may even drink. What they won’t do is eat. So to avoid confusion and yet answer your questions, let’s just talk about *cooling*, rather than brumating.

With the possible exception of the Diamond, cooling is NOT essential for Oz pythons. However, if you intend to breed them, then for most species cooling is recommended. The reason for this is that cooling can considerably increases the chances of breeding success. This is a generalisation and you will get exceptions to the rule. In Australia, cooling is most appropriate for the months May to July, although August is sometimes included. Partial cooling may be done in the months either side of this period, but there is no evidence to suggest this is any more effective. A lot of keepers who do not intend to breed will still cool their animals over winter. The reasons for this vary, such as: it provides a more natural yearly cycle; it allows the keeper a break from feeding and cleaning; it can save on heating and feeding costs; or any combination.

There are two main ways to go about cooling. The simplest approach is to reduce the running time of the ‘hot spot’ heater during the cooler months. The other main approach is to reduce the maximum temperatures reached during the cooling period. Clearly the second approach can only be implemented where one has variable control over the temperatures in the enclosure, such as via a thermostat.

The most difficult question to answer is how much cooling i.e. by *how many hours* should one turn off the “hot spot’ heater; by *how many degrees* should one reduce the maximum temperatures? If you asked 10 different people, you may get 10 different answers. This is where researching reliable sources comes into play. Make use of books and the net, but be selective. Restrict yourself to authors who have the runs on the board. Do not expect total agreement, as there is more than one way to skin a cat. However it will give you a ‘feel’ for an appropriate range within which to operate.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jul 1, 2020)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I spent some time preparing this response and got interrupted by other things before I could finish it and post it. I realise the conversation has moved on in the meantime, but hopefully you might still find this of some value.
> 
> How do you recognise brumation? For many, the term ‘brumation’ conjures up images of a reptile being totally inactive for three or four months during winter, until the weather begins to warm up in spring. Yet this is not necessarily what happens. In nature, many reptile species come out and bask on sunny winter days. They may even drink. What they won’t do is eat. So to avoid confusion and yet answer your questions, let’s just talk about *cooling*, rather than brumating.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bluetongue1


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 2, 2020)

@Josiah Rossic Am glad you have found it of value. I also wrote some notes on brumation, but the post turned out too long to include them. I can post them if you are interested.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jul 3, 2020)

Bluetongue1 said:


> @Josiah Rossic Am glad you have found it of value. I also wrote some notes on brumation, but the post turned out too long to include them. I can post them if you are interested.


That would be awesome mate


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 5, 2020)

Sorry about the delay. Given this is a single post, I added a few bits and pieces.

The term hibernation was originally used to describe any animal that entered an extended period of winter dormancy. (It has also been applied to plants.) This seasonal state of inactivity is characterized by low body-temperature, slowed breathing and heart-rate and low metabolic rate. Bear in mind that *reptiles* are _ectotherms_ i.e. they derive most of their body heat from the environment, and therefore their body temperature is subject to changes in their environment; *mammals* and *birds* are _endotherms_ i.e. they derive most of their body heat by generating it inside their bodies, and therefore can maintain a relatively constant body temperature independent of environmental temperatures. 

The term ‘brumation’ was first introduced in 1965 to distinguish between winter dormancy in reptiles and that in mammals. Part of the reason is that there were some clearly observable differences. Hibernating mammals would not emerge at all for the duration of hibernation. Whereas reptiles were known to emerge on warmer, sunny days to bask and to drink. However the key difference identified was that endotherms have to actively alter their internal metabolism to achieve the drop in body temperature, and the other changes that occur. In contrast, reptiles, being ectotherms, are simply responding to changes in their external environment. 

So *hibernation* is defined as something that occurs in _endotherms_; and *brumation* is something that occurs in _ectotherms_.

The term hibernation was traditionally used for animals entering a "deep sleep". It was discovered that bears only drop their body temperature about 5 or 6 degrees Celsius and yet their metabolic rate drops about 75%. They also have periods where their metabolic rate returns to near normal for several days at a time. This is why the current definition of hibernation is based on active metabolic suppression and no longer the degree of decline in body temperature.

A further complication is daily and multiple day torpor. Many, if not most small mammals, including over 40% of Australia’s native mammals, are capable of entering a torpid state to conserve energy reserves. Small mammals in cold weather will do so on a daily basis, going into torpor at night. Humming birds do the same thing due their extremely high metabolic rate when active. This can also occur in response to a lack of available food. A lot are capable of extending the torpor period over a period of several days when need be. Many experts believe that the processes of daily and short term torpor, and hibernation, form a continuum and utilize similar mechanisms. For the moment, torpor is used for short term dormancy and hibernation for a significantly extend period of dormancy.


----------



## Sdaji (Jul 6, 2020)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Sorry about the delay. Given this is a single post, I added a few bits and pieces.
> 
> The term hibernation was originally used to describe any animal that entered an extended period of winter dormancy. (It has also been applied to plants.) This seasonal state of inactivity is characterized by low body-temperature, slowed breathing and heart-rate and low metabolic rate. Bear in mind that *reptiles* are _ectotherms_ i.e. they derive most of their body heat from the environment, and therefore their body temperature is subject to changes in their environment; *mammals* and *birds* are _endotherms_ i.e. they derive most of their body heat by generating it inside their bodies, and therefore can maintain a relatively constant body temperature independent of environmental temperatures.
> 
> ...



This is actually another one of these semantics debates which comes up from time to time and is dealt with incorrectly. It is perfectly correct to say reptiles hibernate (by all means look up the definition of 'hibernate' or 'hibernation' to confirm this). Brumation is a more specific word which doesn't apply to things like bears, but hibernation is still a general term which does cover any slowing down or dormancy due to cold temperatures.

It's like saying a snake isn't an animal, it's a snake. It's both. Brumation is a type of hibernation. Some people would like to change the definition, but it hasn't happened, and consulting a dictionary will confirm this (I'm not the authority on the English language, but the people who are the authorities on the English language can confirm this via their dictionaries).


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jul 6, 2020)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Sorry about the delay. Given this is a single post, I added a few bits and pieces.
> 
> The term hibernation was originally used to describe any animal that entered an extended period of winter dormancy. (It has also been applied to plants.) This seasonal state of inactivity is characterized by low body-temperature, slowed breathing and heart-rate and low metabolic rate. Bear in mind that *reptiles* are _ectotherms_ i.e. they derive most of their body heat from the environment, and therefore their body temperature is subject to changes in their environment; *mammals* and *birds* are _endotherms_ i.e. they derive most of their body heat by generating it inside their bodies, and therefore can maintain a relatively constant body temperature independent of environmental temperatures.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks Bluetongue1! I'm super appreciative that you've taken the time to show me this. Once again thanks for all your help.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 16, 2020)

Sdaji said:


> … It's like saying a snake isn't an animal, it's a snake. It's both. Brumation is a type of hibernation. Some people would like to change the definition, but it hasn't happened, and consulting a dictionary will confirm this (I'm not the authority on the English language, but the people who are the authorities on the English language can confirm this via their dictionaries).


Why then do we find a definition of brumation by the Oxford Dictionary on lexico.com and in Merriam-webster.com › dictionary? Not to mention researchgate.net; encyclo.co.uk; en.wikipedia.org; definitions.net ; www.wordhippo.com; findwords.info; quora.com; and hundreds of word, nature and research sites. The term is defined and in wide usage. That is sufficient to warrant utilising it (and discussing it), even if it does not yet have universal acceptance. Clearly we can agree to disagree.

*Edit:* Removed urban dictionary from list as it was not meant to be included. It does recognise brumation as a separate term from hibernation, but the definition provided is definitely too scant.


----------



## Sdaji (Jul 17, 2020)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Why then do we find a definition of brumation by the Oxford Dictionary on lexico.com and in Merriam-webster.com › dictionary? Not to mention urbandictionary.com; researchgate.net; encyclo.co.uk; en.wikipedia.org; definitions.net ; www.wordhippo.com; findwords.info; quora.com; and hundreds of word, nature and research sites. The term is defined and in wide usage. That is sufficient to warrant utilising it (and discussing it), even if it does not yet have universal acceptance. Clearly we can agree to disagree.



You seem to have the definition of brumation well and truly understood, well done. You don't seem to have a proper grasp of the world hibernation, oh well.


----------



## CF Constrictor (Jul 18, 2020)

Hi J. R
You can always


Josiah Rossic said:


> Thanks for your advise anyway Sdaji, I just didn't want to spend money on something I didn't need. If I'v brumated him before without a thermostat, I reckon I can do it again


run your heat mat though a dimmer switch to contol temps. They are cheaper, but a thermostat would be better in the long run , in my opinion.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Jul 19, 2020)

Thanks CF Constrictor


----------

