# Castle Hill Expo Sellers



## bigguy (Apr 10, 2009)

Sellers are a major attraction at most expos. People come with wallets full of cash looking for that great looking animal or bargains. You would think that most organisors would try to encourage as many sellers as possible to make their shows better.

I wonder how many sellers will be at Castle Hill this year when they are being slugged a massive $770 for 1 table. Cant imagine to many cheap bargins there will be. I know of at least 5 sellers who will not be going due to this enormous price hike, including Shane Scarf and myself.

With a current worldwide recession, and with people mainly complaining about the lack of sellers and bargains at the Mac Herp Expo, you have to wonder the reasoning of charging 36 times more for a table then SOFAR, and 15 times more the the Mac Herp Expo, and 3.5 times more then last years expo. Only the few commercial breeders will be able to afford these prices.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 10, 2009)

I must of been mistaken, I could have sworn I was quoted a thousand dollars for a table only a few days ago?


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## Wild~Touch (Apr 10, 2009)

It would help if Non Commercial Sellers tables were free of charge (initially) and then pay a percentage of their takings

that's fair to me

Cheers
Sandee


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

I've often wondered that myself Bob, I've always thought the price should be recooped through the entry price at the door, and sellers should only pay a minimal price as they are in turn attracting the crowds. Breeders with little to sell (ie lizard breeders who can't keep and feed a whole heap of hatchies from summer till the expo, or the little known snake breeders with small collections of high quality pythons) might then be interested in having a table to show their breeding stock to advertise their name somewhat. I'm not sure how it goes in those giant shows OS, but they are made of all breeders large and small, with every species under the sun on show.


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> I must of been mistaken, I could have sworn I was quoted a thousand dollars for a table only a few days ago?



thats a special price for Sandgropers only


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## Cabotinage (Apr 10, 2009)

thats a bit stupid of them really, as the main reason im going is to buy a carpet with theire be enclosures for sale also?


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## Ramsayi (Apr 10, 2009)

I'm in two minds as to getting a table this year as the price is over the top compared to previous years.The actual price works out to be around $40/hour for the 3 days.Add to that the cost of a half decent display and we are talking over 2K all up.


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## bigguy (Apr 10, 2009)

Thats sounds a better idea. Charge sellers a percentage of their takings, but make the table free. It would attract far more sellers for sure, and make it a far better show.

Dave, are you sure they quoted you a $1000 for a table??? I could have sworn that WA sellers had to pay $2000.


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## Jason (Apr 10, 2009)

im with all you guys.... was extremely dissapointed with the cost. i also know of another few breeders that wanted to get a table but have since desided not to because of the price. if it was 200 it would be worth it but i honestly think it should be free! there would be an enormous amount of potential stalls if it was with a great variety of animals for sale. should be a good show but im worried that it wont live upto last years because of this price.

honestly we should let the organisers know that these prices are dramatically decreasing the number of enthuistic breeders from getting a stall. at 2K, youd need to sell a few top animals to make cover costs and need to sell alot more to make it worth while.


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## bigguy (Apr 10, 2009)

Ramsayi, one seller at Mac Herps only sold 2 Spotted Pythons at $200ea. If they had the same sucsess at Castle Hill they would have lost $370. 

Anthony and Mark have done a great job over the last few years with their expo, but these high prices are only going to have a negative impact on the show. If there are not many sellers this year, people will loose faith, and next year many will not return. 

This has been the trend with country Agricultural shows over the last 5 years. Charge exhibitors high prices and they dont go. No exhibitors and the crowds dont go. Nearly every country show is now suffering this downward spiral through greedy pricing


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## Nelly (Apr 10, 2009)

bigguy said:


> Thats sounds a better idea. Charge sellers a percentage of their takings, but make the table free. It would attract far more sellers for sure, and make it a far better show.
> 
> Dave, are you sure they quoted you a $1000 for a table??? I could have sworn that WA sellers had to pay $2000.



That would require too much legwork to regulate. I think it'd be a better idea to just reduce the price. $450 wouldn't be too bad, considering a lot of sellers will recoup this after a couple of sales. Factor in the displays, as mentioned above, and smaller guys would still be lucky to break even. However, they'd be far more likely to actually attend.

It's a shame to see the organisers profiteering in an industry that's mainly based around hobbyists, generally those with little expendible income. Most of their "profits" are reinvested in their hobby anyway.

I'm disgusted that the price is that high.


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## wokka (Apr 10, 2009)

Perhaps one of the reasons for castle Hills success is that it is run as a business? Even so I am lead t believe it is till running at a financial loss.


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## funcouple (Apr 10, 2009)

as a possible buyer im now having second thoughts about going. yes there will still be the display animals, but the ones for sale are still part of the display. so if i saw the snake i wanted id be pulling my folded plastic out.


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## Gecko :) (Apr 10, 2009)

I was thinking about having a Gecko stall , but changed my mind when I found out the price,.
Mac Herps only cost $20! for upto 30 animals!


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## bigguy (Apr 10, 2009)

Wokka

The idea of a business is to make money, and in this case you need the public to do so. The public come to see or buy animals, but if high prices scare away the sellers, then the public will follow eventually as they wont get what there paying for..


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

How much is it or was it to get through the gate last year?? All I remember was it was far too cheap IMO


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## yommy (Apr 10, 2009)

maybe you should start a poll? Surely the organisers look at sites like this for public opinion. 
If it is out priced for the big guys of our hobby what about the small time sellers.

I agree with bigguy, people come to see and possible buy, it will only hurt the organisers in the long run.
I am coming from Brisbane to see this show, if it is crap it will be a one offexperience, if it's a great trip it will turn into an annual thing. I am sure i am not the only interstate vistor. 
Come on organisers support the people that support you.

JMO


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## Mrs I (Apr 10, 2009)

Maybe charging people a little more to go through the gates and allow the sellers cheaper prices to have a table would imo be a much better idea.


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## shanesaussie_pythons (Apr 10, 2009)

Unfortunetly aussie_pythons will not be able to offer any bargins with a price of $775.00 for the sellers booth so all those people that were to pick up pre arranged sales at the castle hill expo will need to ring me .Other arrandments have already been made.Also all those who said they would drop out to say hi and support aussie_pythons WE WILL NOT BE AT THE CASTLE HILL SHOW THIS YEAR . but we will still have a discount on all our python stock over the 3 days of the event regards shane from aussie_pythons


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 10, 2009)

I was told that if private breeders desired a table but could not afford it, that the organizers would put them in touch with similar people to possibly share tables. Personally as much as I think that idea is admirable, I wouldn't be that comfortable with somebody I didn't really know having reptiles in close proximity with my own.
Or if I ended up sharing a table with Bob, I would have to wear a pair of earmuffs and hide my doughnuts.

I was considering selling wild caught and captive breed Pilbara Stimsons, woma’s etc there but I am now starting to think it will be a little too much out of my league, it’s a expensive trip from the Pilbara.


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## ihaveherps (Apr 10, 2009)

shanesaussie_pythons said:


> WE WILL NOT BE AT THE CASTLE HILL SHOW THIS YEAR . but we will still have a discount on all our python stock over the 3 days of the event regards shane from aussie_pythons



Do you care to elaborate on that Shane?

I am quite impressed by some of the attitudes, just to make sure I get things straight..... people who want to get tables at the show, are of the belief, that because someone puts a massive amount of time, and risks the capital, to put on the expo, which in turn brings in the largest captive market of prospective customers in the country annually.... should sell shop spaces at a low price, so that the breeders can capitalise and profit, without supporting the mechanism (the expo) that makes it all possible. Thats how it is reading to me.


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## spongebob (Apr 10, 2009)

Thank god for the internet, mobile phones and the car park.


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## Mrs I (Apr 10, 2009)

spongebob said:


> Thank god for the internet, mobile phones and the car park.


 

I wonder what they would charge for a boot sale ??


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## missllama (Apr 10, 2009)

so at this expo, people who want to sell some stock on a table there will set them back 770-1000 bucks? how long does this expo even go for?

to me that price sounds rediculous..


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## bigguy (Apr 10, 2009)

Ihaveherps, these expos are susposably to try and encourage our great hobby , not to line the pockets of the organisors. Will people come if theres nothing to see. I doubt it. And what about little Jonny down the road who bred some baby beardeds and some bluetongues. He might have $600 worth of animals to sell and can do so at any normally priced expo, but not Castle Hill. They want more for a table then he has to sell. This means this expo is only for the big boys, and not the novices or little breeders.


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## Mrs I (Apr 10, 2009)

I went last year and was quite impressed, but by the sounds of it, i wont be making the trip over this year.

Adelaide has nothing in the way of herp expos, so for me i loved last year, but if there are going to be not as many sellers i doubt it would be worth the trip from Adelaide.


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## ihaveherps (Apr 10, 2009)

Bob, comparing this expo to the others, isnt a fair comparison by any stretch of the means, and your thoughts on the organisers lining their pockets, is well off the mark, people have made more in sales of animals than than the entire show has turned as profit, with alot less investment and risk involved. I agree that the small fish are squeezed out, but you have attended, is it a realistic idea to put lets say 100 private breeders stalls into the area available, on the *****ide to organise a larger available site would incur more costs on the organisers, you have to be fair to both sides, to appreciate the entire scenario you have to look at both sides of the coin. 

On a final note, "these expos are susposably to try and encourage our great hobby", I agree entirely that these expos and shows are an integral part of our growing hobby, but have you read through this thread, seen the posts like "Mrs I" above, and thought about the dis-service you are doing, your a respected member of the community, and whether you like it or not, or even intended it, you are harming an entity that itself is nurturing the hobby you love.


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

It's a bit of a double sided coin there herpies, I can't blame the bigger breeders for kicking up a stink, at the end of the day, if they and other breeders arn't going to be there, then the result will be the same, maybe not this year, but people will be burnt if they travel along way only to find nothings for sale, you can't paint a rosey picture if alls not rosey... I know the expos have run at a loss to a very small profit in the past and things are tight, but I really think that charging large amounts for tables isn't the way to structure "the buisness" so to speak... people are happy to fork out big dollars to watch 80 minutes of a local football game, if the shows good enough, they will fork out dollars to see a all day reptile show, esp if they have driven an hour plus to get there, and there are 40-50 tables with breeders showcasing their breeders and possibly selling a few animals.


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## Mrs I (Apr 10, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Bob, comparing this expo to the others, isnt a fair comparison by any stretch of the means, and your thoughts on the organisers lining their pockets, is well off the mark, people have made more in sales of animals than than the entire show has turned as profit, with alot less investment and risk involved. I agree that the small fish are squeezed out, but you have attended, is it a realistic idea to put lets say 100 private breeders stalls into the area available, on the *****ide to organise a larger available site would incur more costs on the organisers, you have to be fair to both sides, to appreciate the entire scenario you have to look at both sides of the coin.
> 
> On a final note, "these expos are susposably to try and encourage our great hobby", I agree entirely that these expos and shows are an integral part of our growing hobby, but have you read through this thread, seen the posts like "Mrs I" above, and thought about the dis-service you are doing, your a respected member of the community, and whether you like it or not, or even intended it, you are harming an entity that itself is nurturing the hobby you love.


 
When you have a lot of people (some big sellers too) saying they wont be having a table due to the increase in prices, i dont think it would be worth the trip from Adelaide to come over, having said that if I was living in Sydney or close by i would of course still be attending. It is a small entry fee to see a wide range of animals on display and 'reptile gear' available. And of course to catch up and meet people you may have not met before.

It was great last year, loved everything there, the only downfall for me was going with my sister who lives in Sydney who is creeped out by reptiles.


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## Mrs I (Apr 10, 2009)

JasonL said:


> It's a bit of a double sided coin there herpies, I can't blame the bigger breeders for kicking up a stink, at the end of the day, if they and other breeders arn't going to be there, then the result will be the same, maybe not this year, but people will be burnt if they travel along way only to find nothings for sale, you can't paint a rosey picture if alls not rosey... I know the expos have run at a loss to a very small profit in the past and things are tight, but I really think that charging large amounts for tables isn't the way to structure "the buisness" so to speak... people are happy to fork out big dollars to watch 80 minutes of a local football game, if the shows good enough, they will fork out dollars to see a all day reptile show, esp if they have driven an hour plus to get there, and there are 40-50 tables with breeders showcasing their breeders and possibly selling a few animals.


 

Well said. I would be more than happy to pay double the entry fee to have more tables and animals on display. After all you can go around as many times as you like all day !!


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## ihaveherps (Apr 10, 2009)

We all know what a great opportunity these shows are to meet people, buy animals and equipment, and generally have a good time. To anyone who has let this thread in any way disuade you going to the show, have another thought.... I am not here to dis-agree with anyone, peoples veiws are already made up, as to how the situation affects them, though lets not allow this to have an over-bearing tone on the show as a whole.... each and every person who attends, from sellers, to the general public are playing a part in our evolving hobby and helping these expos develop and grow from year to year.... in ten years time if your want these sorts of events to still be around, you all need to contribute today.


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

I agree herpies, the show will be worth going no matter what, I'll be there for 2 days of it, as I have been for the previous ones, It's the biggest and best reptile show in the country, and plays a large part in the future of our hobby, thus needs to be driven in the right direction. I think it needs to be pushed harder in the direction of the "normal" people, heavily advertised in EVERY willing petshop in Sydney. Last year I didn't hear a thing about it out of the herp circles I run around in, and hav't so far this year.


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## Boney (Apr 10, 2009)

why is it that the bigger breeders . can charge 1000's if not 10 's of thousands of dollers for a single animal . and if we dont want to pay it we are just basicly as the buyer time wasters . and told to bugger off which is more then fair enough . but when it comes time for the say ,the more well off of the bigger breeders they want to cut costs on every aspect of reptile keeping ..to increase their profit margins . making money is a beautiful thing but surely you have to give a little back to the hobby that supports you in a way . the cost of a table is basicly a donation of say 3 spotted pythons so if you sell 4 you have broken even at least and you have helped the industry and the event out .


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 10, 2009)

Off the subject a bit, but what would punters think would be a good price for wild caught Pilbara stimsons if made available there?


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## Ramsayi (Apr 10, 2009)

$50 but then again I'm not really into stimmies


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## Boney (Apr 10, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Off the subject a bit, but what would punters think would be a good price for wild caught Pilbara stimsons if made available there?


 
$ 250-600 sure hope you do make it . would love to get something special off you ...


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## spongebob (Apr 10, 2009)

Good one stimmo

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-herps/wild-expo-budget-breeders-booths-available-107985


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## FAY (Apr 10, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Off the subject a bit, but what would punters think would be a good price for wild caught Pilbara stimsons if made available there?



How would that work Dave??

Import permit + $180.00 C.A.L.M fee??


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## -Matt- (Apr 10, 2009)

I have just read on another forum that they are now offering secondary booths for $300 each , and there is also going to be heavy newspaper and radio advertisement this year.


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## FAY (Apr 10, 2009)

Matt,
They have already put a thread on here.


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## -Matt- (Apr 10, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> Matt,
> They have already put a thread on here.


 
Oh sorry Fay I didnt realise.


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## herptrader (Apr 10, 2009)

The VHS expo in Melbourne charged absolutely nothing for private herpers selling just animals.

The commercial sellers of product and livestock paid just $450 per table.

This seemed to be a good formula.

From all reports all involved were quite happy with their profits from the day, including the VHS!

It is not about the money, more about getting people through the door and a great day being had by all.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 10, 2009)

Fay
It works because I already have stock in N.S.W on a private keepers licence.


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## FAY (Apr 10, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Fay
> It works because I already have stock in N.S.W on a private keepers licence.




Well, that is fantastic...looking forward to seeing them there!!


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## SnakePower (Apr 10, 2009)

ANTARESIA1 said:


> making money is a beautiful thing but surely you have to give a little back to the hobby that supports you in a way . the cost of a table is basicly a donation of say 3 spotted pythons so if you sell 4 you have broken even at least and you have helped the industry and the event out .



Couldn't agree more Andy...

Yes this year the cost of the show to exhibitors and breeders has increased more than what would even be considered as a significant increase. However, it is also true that the show struggles to make a profit at the end of the day and it is the biggest and best reptile show/expo in Australia.

I will be there irrespective of the price increase. We have booked a decent size booth and sure it wasn't cheap, but will it be worth it... absolutely!

As Andy said the cost even to small breeders would be around 3-4 animals which if you can't sell 3-4 animals in 3 days at the biggest expo in the hobby in Australia, then maybe something is wrong. Sure that means you have to sell 3-4 animals just to pay to be there, but look at the exposure to the public. Also as long as animals are reasonably priced then a breeder would have to expect to sell a lot more than 3-4 animals... I know I do!

We will be there to support the expo, the hobby, the public, other herpers, the new comers and of course Cutting Edge Morelia!!!

Even if we don't cover the cost of the show, it wil still be a worth while investment to be able to have the public exposure to so many people and for getting more of my animals seen in flesh by the public. Last year we didn't make a fortune at any show, but we did cover our costs, pick up a couple of little bits and pieces and also made a significant number of sales following the shows to people who attended the various events.

I suppose that now with offering the secondary booth space, all those breeders that make heaps from the hobby, but are complaining about the cost that is usually covered by them in the first 1 or 2 sales, will be able to still attend without having to pay a premium price to be able to attend an awesome event, and sell animals at the show. Much better than having to resort to doing carpark deals...

As for the smaller breeders or ones selling beardies and blue-tongues etc, will still be able to be part of the day without having to loose money to be able to attend 

Zac.


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## girdheinz (Apr 10, 2009)

A lot of money goes into "advertising" (both on television and radio) the event bringing over 10,000 potential customers through the door at great expense. 

So your saying big sellers should pay very little and take home 4K out of the day? I bet your animals move out the door far quicker from this show than they would from home. 

To me it looks like some of you think that you guys make the whole show? So your stance is not to support it and to rubbish it on forums to make your point.

So now you have put the pressure on and they have made secondary space available at $300 will you support it? or continue to whinge and do a diservice to the hobby you supposedly represent?

Gird


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## mungus (Apr 10, 2009)

bigguy said:


> Ihaveherps, these expos are susposably to try and encourage our great hobby , not to line the pockets of the organisors. Will people come if theres nothing to see. I doubt it. And what about little Jonny down the road who bred some baby beardeds and some bluetongues. He might have $600 worth of animals to sell and can do so at any normally priced expo, but not Castle Hill. They want more for a table then he has to sell. This means this expo is only for the big boys, and not the novices or little breeders.



I tend to agree with you on this one bigguy.
Its seems the big breeders with the money want it all to themselves.
No competition means more sales for them.
To much **** slapping behind close doors for my liking.
If this trend continues, small breeders who once could make a few bucks out of their loved hobby will be walking as if they have been touching their toes for a week.
Thats my 2 cents worth.
Cheers,
Aleks.


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## zulu (Apr 10, 2009)

*re Castle*

Three hundred for secondary sellers sounds alright,as long as they dont demand ABN numbers that would be outrageous,NPWS says we can all be amatuers and sell in Mc Donalds carparks,the overheads are low and the coffees cheap!


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## MrBredli (Apr 10, 2009)

Over the next few years i forsee a large shift in the primary focus of reptile expos and that will be towards reptile sales. Wild Expo won't go too far with fees of $770 per table, but that merely opens the door for other expos such as Mac Herps to capitalize on the situation. If Mac Herps can bring their expo a bit closer to Sydney (i realize they can't move too far from home base, but somewhere like Liverpool would be advantageous) and push it as being 'the expo' to purchase reptles, then they will have a great deal of success. 

What breeder wouldn't want to sell a season's worth of offspring at one (or a few) expos rather than dealing with countless individuals over many months? Commonsense says that, in time, breeders will look to the expos as their main point of sale. IMO expos that start heading in that direction now will find themselves leaps and bounds ahead in a very short time.


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## Craig2 (Apr 10, 2009)

1 The sellers and exibitors make the show 
2 If they dont go then the gate numbers will be well down (maybe not this year but if you make the trip and its crap(nothing there) then they will not go next year)
ITS A KNOW BRAINER AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED 
Look at it this way 
tables $770 but they only get say 40 people to sell if that $30800 
Tables at $300 they may get 20% more people to sell 
48 tables at $300 $14400
Now charge $5 extra per person to get in say 5000 people $ 25000
$39400
And the show will be alot better for visitors may cost them a little more but hey ive never heard any one whinge at the entry fee if the shows good


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## Boney (Apr 10, 2009)

so you guys want the guys that are putting on this expo to put in all the hard work .organise it all . then run at a loss like at the mac herps ? so this whole expo is really just put on as a gift to the same old blokes that are the only ones allowed to make any money ?. cant see this expo thing working real good in the future . pretty sure the organisers will get sick of running at a loss ....


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## guesswho (Apr 10, 2009)

Why not charge sellers flat rate of say $350 and then 5-10% of total weekend takings?????


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## Craig2 (Apr 10, 2009)

zulu said:


> as long as they dont demand ABN numbers ,NPWS says we can all be amatuers and sell in Mc Donalds carpark



if they have an abn it is illegal to sell snakes in NSW This would constitute as Commercial supply 
which according to NPWL is illegal 

NPWS says we can all be amatuers and sell in Mc Donalds carpark TRUE but actually NPWL says its the only way you can sell reptiles.


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## MrBredli (Apr 10, 2009)

ANTARESIA1 said:


> so you guys want the guys that are putting on this expo to put in all the hard work .organise it all . then run at a loss like at the mac herps ? so this whole expo is really just put on as a gift to the same old blokes that are the only ones allowed to make any money ?. cant see this expo thing working real good in the future . pretty sure the organisers will get sick of running at a loss ....


 
Who said they have to run at a loss? 

The cheaper the booths are the more booths will be sold. The more sold, the more herps will be for sale. The more herps for sale the more people will come to buy. Seems to me like there's much more money to be made if anything.


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## krefft (Apr 10, 2009)

Only around 10% of the people who go are there to buy reptiles. Most are families going to have a look.


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## MrBredli (Apr 10, 2009)

guesswho said:


> Why not charge sellers flat rate of say $350 and then 5-10% of total weekend takings?????


 
That's sounds fair to me, but would require sellers to be honest about just how many they sold. If you're talking about something like a pair of albino Olives which might earn Wild Expo a comission of $1000+, what's to stop buyer and seller saying we'll do the deal after the expo and split the $1000 50/50 (i.e. buyer gets $500 off the asking price, seller gets $500 extra, Wild Expo gets $0)?


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## MrBredli (Apr 10, 2009)

krefft said:


> Only around 10% of the people who go are there to buy reptiles. Most are families going to have a look.


 
Given a wider range of reptiles for sale i think you'd find many of those families may be inclined to purchase.


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## Jason (Apr 10, 2009)

good to see anthony make the change for cheaper booths. i truely hope that changes a few people opinions and more stalls are there!


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

krefft said:


> Only around 10% of the people who go are there to buy reptiles. Most are families going to have a look.



true, but that will change with time if it all keeps going in the right direction.... there are still vast numbers of people out there who don't even know you can buy and keep snakes.


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## spongebob (Apr 10, 2009)

krefft said:


> Only around 10% of the people who go are there to buy reptiles. Most are families going to have a look.



Hopefully it will be far less than this. The expo is many things, and certainly the main reason is not about selling herps. This is not about creating an aussie Hamm. The organiser has done this 'gig' now a few times now and has not made a mint, indeed it's been 'meatloaf on the table' for his family several times. It is about a love of our native wildlife and herps in particular.


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## Craig2 (Apr 10, 2009)

They need the sellers and exibitors to make the show 
really all the orgasinser is supplying is the people through the gates 
Charge them the extra to cover lower booth costs because with out the booths and display animals they have no show 

Being that there is prizes and a very good chance sellers will sell alot of snakes they yes they should pay 
but not heaps Because lets face it if there not there PEOPLE WONT BE EITHER


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## spongebob (Apr 10, 2009)

Oops....

Put it another way -should attendence be limited to a percentage of the population with licences?


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## Craig2 (Apr 10, 2009)

So they have droped the selling booth price thats great but anyone who has rang them and does not hear about the drop will be lost and they have missed out on there 300


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

spongebob said:


> Hopefully it will be far less than this. The expo is many things, and certainly the main reason is not about selling herps. This is not about creating an aussie Hamm. The organiser has done this 'gig' now a few times now and has not made a mint, indeed it's been 'meatloaf on the table' for his family several times. It is about a love of our native wildlife and herps in particular.



True, but for thingss to go forward, I think you need more breeders showing off their animals, from unusual lizards or differently patterned "lines" ie morphs that you won't see on display, and to get the breeders showing off their wares, you need buyers, as well as families


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## scam7278 (Apr 10, 2009)

what a joke.... the bigger breeders bitching about prices of a table to sell reptiles..... how much money will you all make over the 3 days????? and you bitch about $770


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## girdheinz (Apr 10, 2009)

JasonL said:


> True, but for thingss to go forward, I think you need more breeders showing off their animals, from unusual lizards or differently patterned "lines" ie morphs that you won't see on display, and to get the breeders showing off their wares, you need buyers, as well as families


 

I thought the IRS show outclassed a lot of others and it doesn't sell animals at all. Sometimes selling is a negative.


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## MrBredli (Apr 10, 2009)

hobbo said:


> what a joke.... the bigger breeders bitching about prices of a table to sell reptiles..... how much money will you all make over the 3 days????? and you bitch about $770


 
More to the point, how many families will go home disappointed because they couldn't purchase a $20 bluetongue at the expo, or a $50 turtle?

Breeders with thousands of dollars worth of hatchies to sell should be cheering, as they won't have much competition. Besides, they could always put a $20 fee on top of their prices to cover costs if they so choose.


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## Eylandt (Apr 10, 2009)

hobbo said:


> what a joke.... the bigger breeders bitching about prices of a table to sell reptiles..... how much money will you all make over the 3 days????? and you bitch about $770


 

Would be VERY interested to know how much the big guys took home last year but of course we'll never hear truthfully how many thousand they make each expo.

Its sad that the smaller herper misses out due to the price. Perhaps organizer's should look at categorizing sellers by stock levels and having varied rates based on that?


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

I don't think you could compair the IRS show with a Castle Hill expo, no offence to the IRS I'm sure they did a great job.  The Hobby pretty much is about keeping and breeding, and with breeding comes selling... there are many aspects to the expos, and selling is just one part, but I think it could be better than has yet been done.


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## JasonL (Apr 10, 2009)

Eylandt said:


> Would be VERY interested to know how much the big guys took home last year but of course we'll never hear truthfully how many thousand they make each expo.
> 
> Who cares how much they make? they do alot of work to breed and maintain large collections, they provide alot of interest on the day, whether it is valuable information they give out to keen herpers, animals sold, or just for the animals they have on display for the thousands of paying public to look at...


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## funcouple (Apr 10, 2009)

Eylandt said:


> Would be VERY interested to know how much the big guys took home last year but of course we'll never hear truthfully how many thousand they make each expo.
> 
> Its sad that the smaller herper misses out due to the price. Perhaps organizer's should look at categorizing sellers by stock levels and having varied rates based on that?


 
yes that would work. sell a table to one of these big sellers to sell lets say 50 herps. problem is they will just go back out to their car and carry a few more back in to re-stock their table after making a few sales.
would be nice to know how many people past through the gate last year. as every person through the gate is a possible buyer. i for one know my boss would of been happy with the numbers i saw at last years show passing the stand at last weekends automotive machinery expo that cost him almost $20k for less than 3 days. by the way the stand size was 3msq. i think the prices that have been quoted in this thread sound cheap


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## FAY (Apr 10, 2009)

JasonL said:


> I don't think you could compair the IRS show with a Castle Hill expo, no offence to the IRS I'm sure they did a great job.  The Hobby pretty much is about keeping and breeding, and with breeding comes selling... there are many aspects to the expos, and selling is just one part, but I think it could be better than has yet been done.




No offence taken. He was not comparing as there is no comparison He was basically saying that not everything is about selling reptiles at shows..there is more to a success of a show/or expo.


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## zulu (Apr 10, 2009)

*re Castle*

I suppose you have to be a member of a herp society to buy like at Mac Herps,NPWS will be there to issue licenses,sounds good,next year the Illawarra herp society,Mac Herps and Hawkesbury herps will pool their talent and resources to put on one good show.

Womas will go to class 1,the NPWS will hand responsibility for licensing to someone that cares and pigs may fly :lol:


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## spongebob (Apr 10, 2009)

zulu said:


> I suppose you have to be a member of a herp society to buy like at Mac Herps,NPWS will be there to issue licenses,sounds good,next year the Illawarra herp society,Mac Herps and Hawkesbury herps will pool their talent and resources to put on one good show.
> 
> Womas will go to class 1,the NPWS will hand responsibility for licensing to someone that cares and pigs may fly :lol:



I agree with the notion of the herp socs consolidating. One reasonably big show to counter the expo.


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## Eylandt (Apr 10, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Who cares how much they make? they do alot of work to breed and maintain large collections, they provide alot of interest on the day, whether it is valuable information they give out to keen herpers, animals sold, or just for the animals they have on display for the thousands of paying public to look at...


 
It makes every difference as the complaint here is about money. Arguements could be thrown back and forth for eternity but really its pointless doing so. I mean I could say that these big time sellers wouldnt have an expo to sell at if it wasnt for the organizers. Furthermore sellers arent the only ones that give valuable information or put animals on display. You, of course, will have a rebuttal to these comments which really isnt even worth debating. 

At the end of the day its been assessed by the organizers that these sellers will still profit with these table rates yet the sellers are complaining about the table price. This makes the profit made by sellers each year the pivotal point in the arguement. I mean, will it cut their profits by 5%? 25%? 50%? Are we all being money hungry in an attempt to maximize profits or is there truely a legitimate concern to be addressed?


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## hawkesbury reptiles (Apr 10, 2009)

spongebob said:


> ................It is about a love of our native wildlife and herps in particular.


 
YES...the original concept of this show was as Spongebob said above! Remember, last year was the first year herps could be sold at the show.....the show had run 2 years before that, focussing on our native wildlife, the environment and education in this area. This is the main drive for the organisers.

What about:

Friday night dinner and guest speaker?
Saturday night BBQ?
Kids shows, dancers and singers etc?
reptile shows
Large variety of herp displays, other than breeders show.
Robocroc...etc
all these run at a loss.....why shouldn't the organisers at least break even with the costs of the booths going directly back into the promotion of both our native wildlife and the herp community.....for the cost of 3 childrens pythons........

I know I will be there 2 weeks before (yes it takes that long) setting up the expo, along with a lot of other passionate people giving up their own time after work and on days off, and all the volunteers over the 3 days giving up their time to talk to people about the animals, the environment and the keeping of these animals.

Is it all about the money for the 'big' breeders not turning up this year? I would hope this wasn't the case....

SEE YOU THERE!!!


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## richardsc (Apr 10, 2009)

expos should be more about reptiles than making money off selling them,promoting the keeping of them,and introducing non reptile folk to them

i dont have a prob with them charging 770 or what ever to people that are there to sell,if u dont like it then dont go,pretty easy really,but do you expect the organisers of said expos to do all the dirty work of organising and promoting said expos to fork out the bucks year after year and the breeders who sell copious amounts and get there products out there to be there and not have to pay for the privelidge,if these expos arent supported there not gunna keep putting them on,its as simple as that

someone mentioned that if sellers dont go,then door numbers drop,look at it the other way to,if organisers get no support and are running at a loss,then theres no expo,which means no selling,77o odd seems like a small price to pay at the end of the day


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## zulu (Apr 10, 2009)

*re Castle*



spongebob said:


> I agree with the notion of the herp socs consolidating. One reasonably big show to counter the expo.



Sponge i think anthony was very involved with hawhesbury herps at one stage years back but they didnt like the idea back then of having shows,so he started his own little show privately.The Illawarra and Macarther Herp societies have always been geared to the reptile keepers interests,the Hawkesbury Herps were represented out the front near the entrance of the expo last year,probably to show that they are out there.


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## richardsc (Apr 10, 2009)

it is a sad day when money becomes of more interest than the reptiles,giving back isnt such a bad thing every now and then


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## Craig2 (Apr 10, 2009)

richardsc said:


> if these expos arent supported there not gunna keep putting them on,its as simple as that
> 
> someone mentioned that if sellers dont go,then door numbers drop,look at it the other way to,if organisers get no support and are running at a loss,then theres no expo,which means no selling,77o odd seems like a small price to pay at the end of the day



And it is for the likes of snake ranch and the bigger breeders 
but little joe down the road with 10 bluies and a few beardies to sell
should not have to pay the same as the big guys who have gtp, roughies,bhp, woma albinos, even olives and macs to sell 

if these expos arent supported there not gunna keep putting them on,its as simple as that
If they dont keep the public happy and know one goes they wont have to worry about organising anything

if these expos arnt supported its because the organiser did not listen to public opinoin and it would leave the door open for someone to come in and make a killing on it 
1 ) The pet shop type stands & Groups like snake ranch, snake farmer, aussie pythons ect any one who works under a banner and wants to advertize at the show. weather it be commercial or not ( because its great advertizing for them not only now but in future years when this expo is well and truly over).should pay the most. Commercial great advertizing, pleant of public ect.

2) Breeders which are not commercial (all of them) should pay Jhon weigle, shane, bob, joe blow with his beardies EG Say $150 for 10 or less animals and for top end stuff or over 10 animals its $300 

Now with this structure EG
if snake ranch/snake farmer or the (pet shops (lower Pricing)) want to fly there banner it costs them say $1500-$2000 Hell charge them $5000 for all i care (really good advertizement and THEY WOULD BE SILLY NOT TO pay it.) 

Due to NPWL law these people would also need to buy a stall to sell there animals $300
this way its fair if they want to use it to advertize chargem 

Snake ranch should not pay the same to sell as joe blogs but jhon weigle should.


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## Carpetpythonmorphs (Apr 10, 2009)

The knockers and the critics of Wildexpo seem to have NO IDEA of the complexities and the costs of running an event like this. Most of the 10,000 or so people that come through the door do not have a reptile license and therefore will not be buying a herp. I could clearly see at the previous expos that the event is about promoting care of our fauna and inspiring more and more people to get into the hobby. Ultimately making more customers for the "big-guys" of the hobby.


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## wokka (Apr 11, 2009)

There is no doubt that the Wild Expo is the best single event in Australia for promoting our hobby, utizing a blend of commercial sponsors and the tireless efforts of the volunteer team. I doubt that anyone gains much financially on the day but it does result in the continued expansion of the hobby and wareness of the reptile community. To all those who say they can do it better,well do it; but not at the expense of Wild expo. There's room for more expos and shows to raise wareness of the hobby. If the hobby doesn,t keep growing we will drown in the thousands of hatchlings being bred each year.


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## BenReyn (Apr 11, 2009)

770 a table!
That's ridiculous, and I agree with all the points' everyone has made.
It makes no sense to me at all...they seem to be discouraging breeders, which is going to have a defenite negative impact on their own show.
But business is business right?:S
Ben.


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## benmcalpine (Apr 11, 2009)

hawkesbury reptiles said:


> Friday night dinner and guest speaker?
> Saturday night BBQ?
> Kids shows, dancers and singers etc?
> reptile shows
> ...


 
I thought that there was an entry fee and the dinner was charged for? If it runs at a loss shouldn't the price be adjusted? Why should the small breeders have to subsidise this? I understand these attractions increase numbers but it's not a charity for the tyre kickers.


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## wokka (Apr 11, 2009)

benmcalpine said:


> I thought that there was an entry fee and the dinner was charged for? If it runs at a loss shouldn't the price be adjusted? Why should the small breeders have to subsidise this? I understand these attractions increase numbers but it's not a charity for the tyre kickers.



Do the small breeders subsidise it? I read the general thrust of the tread is that many breeders dont, nor want to subsidise anything. That being said the majority of volunteers are small breeder and willing give to publicise the hobby. At SOFAR, at Newcastle which is totally volunteer and gets about the same entry though the gate on a per day basis as Wildexpo, prizes are offerred to vounteers. I know wil;d expo does a similiar thing with entry costs and food for volunteers.
Interestingly some people look at what they can get out of the show and others at what they can put in.


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## benmcalpine (Apr 11, 2009)

wokka said:


> Do the small breeders subsidise it? I read the general thrust of the tread is that many breeders dont, nor want to subsidise anything. That being said the majority of volunteers are small breeder and willing give to publicise the hobby. At SOFAR, at Newcastle which is totally volunteer and gets about the same entry though the gate on a per day basis as Wildexpo, prizes are offerred to vounteers. I know wil;d expo does a similiar thing with entry costs and food for volunteers.
> Interestingly some people look at what they can get out of the show and others at what they can put in.


 
Paying 770 per table sounds like they are subsidising something


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## Boney (Apr 11, 2009)

whos little joe blow down the road ? he hasnt said a thing . he hasnt come forward to say .. hey my name is joe blow down the road mr ANTHONY .. i got 2 blue tounges for sale and a bearded dragon can i get a stall for $20.. no the people that arnt happy to pay are a few of the bigger breeders the ones that have been in the game for years . when i was 18 hanging out with my mates we would be walking down the street to the night club saying .better hurry up they arnt going to start without us . we knew this was not true . but acted like it was all about us . some people in this industry think this party is about them.. it aint going to be as good without them . surly this isnt the case . dont turn up and you will slowly get phased out before your time ...


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Apr 11, 2009)

i think the price of tables should structured on how many animals you have times their price? so little joe down the road with the beardeds only gets charged 5% of what he makes then mr i breed rsp's and gtp's gets charged 5% of what he makes.Sounds fair to me...


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## mungus (Apr 11, 2009)

wokka said:


> There is no doubt that the Wild Expo is the best single event in Australia for promoting our hobby, utizing a blend of commercial sponsors and the tireless efforts of the volunteer team. I doubt that anyone gains much financially on the day but it does result in the continued expansion of the hobby and wareness of the reptile community. To all those who say they can do it better,well do it; but not at the expense of Wild expo. There's room for more expos and shows to raise wareness of the hobby. If the hobby doesn,t keep growing we will drown in the thousands of hatchlings being bred each year.




This depends on prices and how many hatchies you breed per year.
Wont effect little me at all...............I'm not a business............:lol::lol:

On the expo, its the best around - No doubt.


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## australia09 (Apr 11, 2009)

how many reptiles can you stick to a table? i probally would suggest a few of you double up to save money if thats the issue..


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## Aslan (Apr 11, 2009)

I have volunteered at the last two MacHerps shows and was out at Castle Hill all three days last year.

As far as 'display' animals, they are absolutely designed to draw the crowds, however, it is certainly clear to myself and I would imagine MANY others that whether people are actualling planning on purchasing or in a position to purchase animals at the Expo the sales displays draw AT LEAST as much attention from passersby as the intended displays...

I think it would be a shame to reduce the number of sales tables at the show by pricing them out of the reach of the smaller breeders...

I certainly agree that the shows primary goal should not be to provide a sales forum, however, animals for sale provide interest to hobbyists and your general joe public, if you reduce the animals for sale you reduce the interest, reduce the interest and reduce your profit...

I also think that the 'specials' on offer will be less enticing with a lack of competition - again, specials are a MAJOR drawcard for hobbyists...

Ultimately, either way I will be attending and am positive I will have a great day (or more) out, I personally think that Wild Expo run the risk of shooting themselves in the foot with these prices though. There is no doubt that they are the standout show, and absolutely no doubt that EVERYONE enjoys themselves (hobbyists and non-herpers alike) I would think that their reputation for providing what they have over the last few years will keep the numbers growing and that reducing the animals at the show may be counter productive...


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## funcouple (Apr 11, 2009)

these breeders that have said their not going this year cause of the price of a table ($770) need to learn that this type of expo isnt just about sales on the day, its about advertising your name and product for the whole year till the next expo where you do it all over again. its a shame that these big breeders wont be there. reports have that one of these breeders took $18k at last years expo and wont pay $770 this year. i really dont think these breeders will stop this expo being an even bigger success than it was last year.


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## Kersten (Apr 11, 2009)

Funcouple, I'd hesistate to draw any assumptions based on the usual herp hobby "reports". While it may be true that someone has done what you've heard, I wouldn't take it as fact unless I'd heard it straight from the horse's mouth. As for their contribution to the success of the day; correct me if I'm wrong but one would think that $18,000 worth of takings can be considered a success - if it actually happened.

As for the prices, I don't really know how you could begin to speculate on how much table fees should be without knowing what the outlay for the event has been. I do agree that it's a price far and above what the average kid with his $50 beardies could afford, and it's a shame that there will be people in that situation who will miss out. Maybe after this year's issues the organisers will take people's suggestions on board and try to (as they have begun to) find a way to provide space for the "little guy". 

The idea of a mean's tested fee would work in a Utopian herp society....but really, how can it be policed to keep things fair without becoming extremely invasive? Tell me that there wouldn't be people kicking up a stink if they had to keep records for the organisers to go over at the end of the day! And what chance would there be of everyone being completely honest about it?

With regards to the big breeders balking at the stand prices, to be honest I'm a little confused. I can totally see where little Johnny and his 2 maccie hatchlings will feel the pinch; however, if I were already making a decent trade out of selling reptiles then I think the idea of spending $770 on some damn good advertising such as the expo would be a justifiable business expense. Obviously I'd be a bit ticked off if at the end of the day I'd only sold a couple of snakes. But again - you're still getting your name out there and your product is being seen.


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## krefft (Apr 11, 2009)

Is it just me or is this kind of going around in circles?
People kicked up a stink at the $770 so Anthony spent yesterday accommodating the "smaller" breeders. The price for a booth is $300. It's a fair price and lets hope people with excess animals support the initiative. So who will be getting one of the $300 tables?


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## Boney (Apr 11, 2009)

yeh its going around in a circle . it could also look a bit odd now with the reduced price tables . and if someone turns up with like $ 200,000 worth of reptiles forsale in the budget table spots. might make them look like a bit of a tight *** . knowing they should of paid full price .........hope that dont happen when everyone wants little johnny, joe blow .and his mate john citizen there .


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## bigguy (Apr 11, 2009)

Yes guys, give it a rest. I started this thread due to the high prices being asked of the smaller breeders. The organisors have responded to the public backlash by lowering the price to $300. Fantastic. The debate is now mute.

As for those claiming great advertising for breeders being there, I seem to remember last year all advertising had to be removed by order of Mark and Anthony. There was little to no advertising at all. That side of the debate is also mute.

I hope everyone will turn up as I am sure they will have a great time there. Hopefully now most of the smaller breeders will turn up as well at this more reasonable pricing. Again , good on the organisors for a great decission.


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## FAY (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't tink anymore can be said..........


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