# Carpondro/ Jagpondro Discussion. (play nice everyone)



## lochie (Feb 12, 2014)

*By carpondro I mean any kind of hybrid between other snakes and GTP. Bredli/jungle/diamond/coastal/darwin/JAG etc

Before I start this, I would like to state that I am very aware of some peoples opinions on hybridization and I'm really not looking for a moral debate or even a discussion on morals in this thread, anyone who wishes to partake in a discussion like that or simply abuse me can PM me and tell me their opinion as I'd raise arms to defend your freedom of speech and your entitled to it, however I ask you keep this thread clear from anything like that as I'm looking for information on not a very well covered topic largely because of arguments that have previously started rather than serious discussion and valid information. Lack of information with anything can be dangerous and cause unnessecary harm.

For example if you have bred them and had one succesfull snake and the rest died and you are against the idea.
Simply state that you had a clutch one was succesful and the rest died so you terminated breeding program due to the ratio of viable offsrping from the clutch. No cursing, no threats just tell the facts.

There is no debating that some amazingly beautiful animals/genes that have come from cross breeding and selective breeding throughout the reptile/pet industry world round. People won't stop doing it and it's here to stay, jags aren't going anywhere for example, and there is your precedent.

So with that being said, who has any information on carpondros from within Australia.
Anyone aware of breeders trying to find a viable way to produce these animals?
Are there any KNOWN problems with animal health?
Anyone have Australian carpondro pictures?
Anyone here own one? (feel free to PM rather than post if you don't want any hassle)
Is anyone here versed enough in reptile husbandry laws to KNOW 100% the legalites surrounding them.?

Any facts/experiences/information on this hybridisation within australia would be great.

** Note to mods,
Just because a topic is controversial due to humane reasons does not mean discussion should be stopped.
If anything factual information and transparency surrounding the suject should be encouraged to educate people correctly instead of forming opinions on misinformation. Lets let the facts and information speak for itself rather than opinionated object orientated arguments from emotionally invested people that lack any real experience or facts.


Please act maturely even if the person above you isn't.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 12, 2014)

But Jags are not Hybrids, with the exception of Bredli crosses they are all the same species.


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## lochie (Feb 12, 2014)

GeckoJosh said:


> But Jags are not Hybrids, with the exception of Bredli crosses they are all the same species.



The term "hybrid" may not encapsulate the entire genetic pool that is referred to as Jags however the moral and ethical arguments apply to jags as they do with carpodros with line breeding of siblings that compromise health for looks which is bases of the arguments which is why I used them as an example of how people are going to do as they please to validate this discussion.


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## saximus (Feb 12, 2014)

I think you’ll find that it’s not the line breeding that people have a problem with. Plenty of the most popular purists line breed to achieve polygenic animals that are quite special. I think the problems is that people consider them to be abominations or, in the case of Jags, have issues with deliberately breeding retarded animals. Either way I think you’re making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill. The mods don’t delete a thread just because someone mentioned the “h” word. There is nothing wrong with heated discussion so long as it doesn’t get personal and I think the new mods are more aware of allowing debates/arguments to go on so long as no personal insults occur.

I’d be curious to read some open discussion about this but even on the overseas sites where it is more accepted there seems to be a lot of guessing going on which tells me that there are very few people doing it successfully. Nobody likes to advertise their failures.


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 12, 2014)

To me it seems that the carpondro thing is something you do just because you can, and there are a few other similar examples in the reptile world. Why you would take what is arguably the most beautiful python in the world and put it with a Carpet to produce something which has a deeply compromised appearance (it's subjective of course, but I've never seen a carpondro which doesn't look as though it's just crawled out of a sewerage pond)? Perhaps that's why they haven't "taken off" the way Jags have...

Jamie


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## champagne (Feb 12, 2014)

there are a couple getting around including a rsp x gtp. I personally wouldn't breed or own one but I do like the look of a carpet python with the gtp head and body structure.


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## andynic07 (Feb 12, 2014)

I have only seen a limited number of pictures of them and have yet to see one that I like. I totally agree with Jamie on this one.


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## champagne (Feb 12, 2014)

The 50/50 crosses look ordinary as adults but when crossed back to a carpet the colour seem to improve but still keep the gtp structure. The problem is green gtp crossed to a red based carpet always turns brown, using a high yellow gtp would change the appearance greatly IMO


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 12, 2014)

The problem with all hybridising may not be evident in the first few generations, but in the end it's like tipping a bunch of colours into a can of paint - you'll eventually ALWAYS end up with poo brown... it's a great looking future for our hobby... 

Jamie


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## RedFox (Feb 12, 2014)

Probably one of the reasons full species crosses haven't taken off in Australia are the legal consequences. There is the possibility that the offspring are seized and euthanised. 

Then there is the fact that due to it being illegal in most states, of not all, the market for these animals is limited. It makes the breeding of such animals a 'let's see what happens' sort of exercise, IMO.


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## Drazzy (Feb 12, 2014)

Here are some links to carpondro:

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg

50% carpondro dam mixed with a green tree python sire.

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/images/2b69db2b2a8fa4dbe332fa51c7b1b5c0_oos5.png

Carpondro#2 (CB 6/2010) is a 75% green tree python/25% carpet python creation

Wouldnt breed the two together mostly because it is illegal in Qld, on the same token there are still pure bred cats and dogs... I dont see how the hobby would dramatically change to 'mud' if we where allowed to cross breed... breeders would still keep pure blood lines, and collectors would have more to choose from.


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## andynic07 (Feb 12, 2014)

RedFox said:


> Probably one of the reasons full species crosses haven't taken off in Australia are the legal consequences. There is the possibility that the offspring are seized and euthanised.
> 
> Then there is the fact that due to it being illegal in most states, of not all, the market for these animals is limited. It makes the breeding of such animals a 'let's see what happens' sort of exercise, IMO.



I know you are right about it being illegal but I do not see it as being different to crossing a bredli with a coastal, which is done openly in most states so I do not see this as a reason. I think a lot of Aussie keepers see GTP's as a bit of a holy grail and therefore have not crossed them much.


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## yellowbeard (Feb 12, 2014)

I wonder what a fluro blue and fluro yellow carpondro will look like?

I think it was Mutton who said in one of the Morelia forums that the male carpondros appear to be sterile?


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## FAY (Feb 12, 2014)

Don't fiddle with something that is already perfection.


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## champagne (Feb 12, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The problem with all hybridising may not be evident in the first few generations, but in the end it's like tipping a bunch of colours into a can of paint - you'll eventually ALWAYS end up with poo brown... it's a great looking future for our hobby...
> 
> Jamie



Look at the jags overseas, with the correct crossings they don't all turn out poo brown. The problem is people who don't care and just try to make a quick buck, breeding everything with everything to get a ''designer'' snake


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 12, 2014)

I wonder what a fluro blue and fluro yellow carpondro will look like?

John Battaglia's website....stunning


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## jacevy (Feb 12, 2014)

Can somebody with a background in breeding dogs tell me if there is a similar discussion when it comes to cross breeding. Or any animal a actually.


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## andynic07 (Feb 12, 2014)

All dogs are the same species so there is no cross species breeding but that is where a mule comes from. A cross with a horse and a donkey which is a cross species hybrid. I believe that there is also examples of cross genus breeding and even cross family breeding that happens.


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## Newhere (Feb 12, 2014)

I just think its sad that green tree pythons are so expensive and people are wasting good animals that could be breeding "pure" gtps and bringing the price down so they are more accessable to everyone in the hobby, they are beautiful animals and like fay said they are perfect, don't waste clutches on filth its not worth it. Nobody got in to this hobby to make money at the start we all just love reptiles and somewhere along the line money and pride got in the way of what we all love.


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## longqi (Feb 12, 2014)

50/50 carpondros have always turned very ordinary by the time they reach adulthood

if they are bred back only to gtps for 3 generations you get 87/12
most of those animals are still too young to be sure of how they will look as adults
but from international photos could be ok

from other forums one of the reasons for breeding them is to have a gtp that is easy to handle and care for???
this doesnt wash when they are ending up with only 12% carpet in the mix

I have seen plenty of carpets to die for
same with plenty of chondros
cannot say the same about any carpondros


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## lochie (Feb 13, 2014)

Newhere said:


> I just think its sad that green tree pythons are so expensive and people are wasting good animals that could be breeding "pure" gtps and bringing the price down so they are more accessable to everyone in the hobby, they are beautiful animals and like fay said they are perfect, don't waste clutches on filth its not worth it. Nobody got in to this hobby to make money at the start we all just love reptiles and somewhere along the line money and pride got in the way of what we all love.



If you were to look at the ratio of GTP sold domestically that are used to breed carpondros compared to pure GTP there would be an overwhelming population breeding pures compared to maybe a total of <5 snakes if that domestically for carpondros, not nearly enough to lower the demand anyway, I'm yet to hear of anyone in australia actually breeding these. So yeah I don't really think that's an issue.



I also doubt that carpondros would be a viable source of income due to the amount ratio of viable offspring and the fact that they can't breed which just like andy said puts them in the same class as mules and as they are very much two different species creating a hybrid.

As for saying they are perfect, I'd go with that except there are people line breeding animals to create yellow GTP that stay more yellow as they mature and I don't see much difference. Either it's perfect and leave it OR they are gorgeous gems that shine more brilliantly with some polishing.

Anyway that's purely objective as if your filth comment but I'd personally love to snap my fingers and have this guy in my collection.
Not for breeding and to make money as they can't easily, just out of love for the beauty of the animal like you were suggesting.

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg


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## andynic07 (Feb 13, 2014)

[MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] it has just clicked to me that you said mixing colours will cause poo brown. I like brown snakes.


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## zulu (Feb 13, 2014)

Its like crossing a commodore with a volvo ,just ugly and people will want to pass you all the time


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 13, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> [MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] it has just clicked to me that you said mixing colours will cause poo brown. I like brown snakes.



Roughies are def.NOT poo brown

they are magical mystical brown...the colours of the earth


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## champagne (Feb 13, 2014)

lochie said:


> I also doubt that carpondros would be a viable source of income due to the amount ratio of viable offspring and the fact that they can't breed which just like andy said puts them in the same class as mules and as they are very much two different species creating a hybrid.


Carpondros and jagpondros have similar issues to zebra carpets with viable offspring and fertility, yet they aren't affected by price and some breeders would disagree that they aren't a viable source of income. The reason no one claims to breed hybrid's in Australia, is the illegal issues and because of that a very small market.
GTP carpet crosses are viable and have been proven to not be sterile as once thought, like any hybrid they have lower fertility rates and harder to breed but defiantly not sterile.


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## saximus (Feb 13, 2014)

I also heard they can be difficult to produce simply because Carpets and GTPs have different breeding times during the year. I think I read it on a forum so who knows the validity of it but if it's true, when would you expect the crosses to breed? And from a husbandry perspective, do you house them like a GTP or a Carpet or somewhere in between?


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 13, 2014)

Drazzy said:


> Here are some links to carpondro:
> 
> http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg
> 
> ...



You are supposing a lot Drazzy. It is already difficult for dedicated pure species breeders to know whether what they are buying as a "pure" species/subspecies is actually that, unless they've known the vendor for 15 years, or unless they go out and catch snakes from the wild. This is a consequence of indiscriminate breeding and flogging animals off as what they look like, not what they actually are. Your comment about pure-bred cats & dogs is nonsensical - domestic dogs are all one species, but have been hugely and diversely distorted by the constant breeding for particular traits - if you take Bulldogs or Pugs as examples, they actually need caesarian sections to successfully deliver pups these days - and that's a very sad indictment on human nature. Domestic cats have never been "purebred" - they are a concoction of similar species, once again man-made, which date from several thousand years ago, and they have had other species added to them in recent times.

It's all for short-term gain, and I lament the constant need "collectors" have, to be the first kid on the block with something new. But I guess everything in life is being turned into commodities these days...

Jamie


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## longqi (Feb 13, 2014)

Definitely not sterile if males are bred back to female chondros


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## Ramy (Feb 13, 2014)

lochie said:


> http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg



Am I the only one who thinks that looks like it's covered in playdough? I feel like anything I would have liked about a GTP has been scrubbed aggressively with a scourer until it looks dirty.


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 13, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> [MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] it has just clicked to me that you said mixing colours will cause poo brown. I like brown snakes.



Ha!!! Don't get me wrong - poo brown has its place, and I too love RSPs. The problem is that so few keepers have ever seen any sort of snake in the bush, and they never will, so to them they are just commodities or fashion accessories. They never see them in context with where they came from originally. Even the plainest Carpet looks magnificent in its natural setting, as you come across it basking in a ball in a patch or early morning sun, or crossing a track or warm road at night. 

Jamie


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## cement (Feb 13, 2014)

What?? Snakes come from the bush??


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## andynic07 (Feb 13, 2014)

I agree Jamie , I get a lot more excited and in awe of a snake in the bush than any snake that I have ever seen in captivity. I am hoping to try and plan a trip to the Iron Ranges to try and see some wild GTP's in the future but am unsure as I have heard that they are very illusive unless you are in the know. I am though getting to do a lot more local herping and planning a few overnight trips to herp with mates.


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## lochie (Feb 13, 2014)

champagne said:


> Carpondros and jagpondros have similar issues to zebra carpets with viable offspring and fertility, yet they aren't affected by price and some breeders would disagree that they aren't a viable source of income. The reason no one claims to breed hybrid's in Australia, is the illegal issues and because of that a very small market.
> GTP carpet crosses are viable and have been proven to not be sterile as once thought, like any hybrid they have lower fertility rates and harder to breed but defiantly not sterile.



I always thought that a hybrid of two species cant successfully breed with another hybrid of the same combination.

For example a mule (horseXdonkey) can't breed with another mule.
Liger (lionxtiger) Can't breed with another liger.

Which is I thought was basically a characteristic of being two different species.


Carpondro Can't breed with another carpondro. unless what your suggesting contradicts that in which case this is why I started this thread could you link me or point me in the direction of where I could get more info on this. I was aware that you could breed them back to either a GTP or carpet as they are genetically closer than another carpondro as weird as that sounds.

I could be totally wrong in my understanding of how the specific genetics work which I why I reached out here for any information anyone could provide as I'm largely ignorant and there is very little info about.

- - - Updated - - -



Pythoninfinite said:


> You are supposing a lot Drazzy. It is already difficult for dedicated pure species breeders to know whether what they are buying as a "pure" species/subspecies is actually that, unless they've known the vendor for 15 years, or unless they go out and catch snakes from the wild. This is a consequence of indiscriminate breeding and flogging animals off as what they look like, not what they actually are. Your comment about pure-bred cats & dogs is nonsensical - domestic dogs are all one species, but have been hugely and diversely distorted by the constant breeding for particular traits - if you take Bulldogs or Pugs as examples, they actually need caesarian sections to successfully deliver pups these days - and that's a very sad indictment on human nature. Domestic cats have never been "purebred" - they are a concoction of similar species, once again man-made, which date from several thousand years ago, and they have had other species added to them in recent times.
> 
> It's all for short-term gain, and I lament the constant need "collectors" have, to be the first kid on the block with something new. But I guess everything in life is being turned into commodities these days...
> 
> Jamie


 
I'm interested in the genetics behind carpondros and to be honest any other type of "genetic goal" based breeding. I can't decide if I'm for or against something with out knowing all the facts. So if you have the time I'd love to hear your thoughts about health issues associated with them and explain a little clearly about what actually defines a species as the line seems to blur a little in reptiles compared to mammals.

- - - Updated - - -



andynic07 said:


> I agree Jamie , I get a lot more excited and in awe of a snake in the bush than any snake that I have ever seen in captivity. I am hoping to try and plan a trip to the Iron Ranges to try and see some wild GTP's in the future but am unsure as I have heard that they are very illusive unless you are in the know. I am though getting to do a lot more local herping and planning a few overnight trips to herp with mates.



I've spent many years in FNQ rainforest and they are very illusive, however one day I saw 5 and that was when we were using a harness to go up to the canopy.


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## champagne (Feb 13, 2014)

saximus said:


> I also heard they can be difficult to produce simply because Carpets and GTPs have different breeding times during the year. I think I read it on a forum so who knows the validity of it but if it's true, when would you expect the crosses to breed? And from a husbandry perspective, do you house them like a GTP or a Carpet or somewhere in between?



same goes for breeding bredli jags or housing diamond jungle crosses, most people overseas keep all the carpets and gtps at the same temps

- - - Updated - - -



lochie said:


> I always thought that a hybrid of two species cant successfully breed with another hybrid of the same combination.
> 
> For example a mule (horseXdonkey) can't breed with another mule.
> Liger (lionxtiger) Can't breed with another liger.
> ...



You can breed woma x ball hybrid's together. I don't believe a carpondro to carpondro has been bred yet but it has been stated all over the net that carpondro males were sterile and couldn't breed this has been disproven, also there has now been several clutches using female gtp and this might be key to breeding carpondro back to carpondro


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## yellowbeard (Feb 15, 2014)

Wild~Touch said:


> I wonder what a fluro blue and fluro yellow carpondro will look like?
> 
> John Battaglia's website....stunning



I have to agree those are some stunning looking pythons, the blue and yellow one WOW!


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## Newhere (Feb 15, 2014)

lochie said:


> If you were to look at the ratio of GTP sold domestically that are used to breed carpondros compared to pure GTP there would be an overwhelming population breeding pures compared to maybe a total of <5 snakes if that domestically for carpondros, not nearly enough to lower the demand anyway, I'm yet to hear of anyone in australia actually breeding these. So yeah I don't really think that's an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea I highly doubt you know what everyone is breeding in australia so your numbers dont mean anything really, why would you hear about peoples illegal activity? They would be worth a fair bit considering people fork out ridiculous amounts of money for these rare hybrids and if you think these people love these animals then why are they trying to change them? When you love something you dont need to change it.


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## lochie (Feb 15, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Yea I highly doubt you know what everyone is breeding in australia so your numbers dont mean anything really, why would you hear about peoples illegal activity? They would be worth a fair bit considering people fork out ridiculous amounts of money for these rare hybrids and if you think these people love these animals then why are they trying to change them? When you love something you dont need to change it.



I stated previous to my number "maybe". Which is a pretext to my numbers to say that, I have no way of knowing exactly
So not only should you highly doubt I know, you should be 100% sure they mean nothing I have no idea as I told you so as they were clearly an example. I also rounded up my statement by saying that by drawing attention away from finite point of numbers to the larger picture which was making the point that regardless of exact figures it wouldn't affect supply and demand of GTP's and thus being a hindrance on the domestic snake marketplace. 

I agree it's something that would be kept quiet and it could be more prominent than once thought. However I doubt it's a huge market size domestically.
I'd be happy to agree to disagree, I just think that the idea that an underground carpondro market that no exact figures can be ascertained about is inflating the price of GTP's is absurd.

As for if you love something you don't need to change it. I agree I have only owned pure "normal" species.
However if you change something it doesn't automatically negate all love for such animal.
What about anyone who has a hypo bredli? albino darwin? platinum maculosa? axanthic BHP? calico BHP? thyrosinase positive childrens? 

Is there love negated because the animal is changed from the pure animal? I don't think so.

I don't think "change" is the deciding factor on whether you can gauge if true love and compassion is being shown for a animal.
I think that decision should be based upon the "genetic health" (Not bred regardless of high casualty rate/known defects reptiles dogs birds alike) of the animal, the quality of life of the animal, reasons for breeding in the first place and obviously the individual caring for the animals.



FAY said:


> Don't fiddle with something that is already perfection.



I think there is a line in the sand somewhere that shouldn't be crossed.
I'm just looking for experiences and information so I can make my own decision rather than just accepting peoples words who have the time act all prophetic but have don't the time to share some knowledge with someone openly asking for information so they don't make a stupid decision. You wouldn't consider your axanthic hatchlings "fiddling" for example?

All I'm really saying is if "fiddling" is the line your in the sand, you might be on the wrong side of it yourself.
Or the answer requires more detail because some form of fiddling is okay as it's potentially naturally occurring compared to other fiddling which wouldn't occur naturally. Maybe the line in the sand isn't as clear as one thought.

All I'm after is information,

I have no idea what is right or wrong as I have no decent facts to go off, I may come off harsh or whatever but I'm just trying to play devils advocate to really understand how people think as most people forget that there are two sides to every coin and life isn't always contrasted as clearly as black and white.


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## Newhere (Feb 15, 2014)

My point is if you breed a single clutch of carpondros then that is a clutch of animals that is wasted and one less clutch of pure gtps on the market. Its not a conspiracy to inflate the prices of gtps lol. All those animals you mentioned are naturally occuring pattern variations and one is a natural intergrade, a carpondro is not and will never be a naturally occuring phenomenon.


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## champagne (Feb 15, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Yea I highly doubt you know what everyone is breeding in australia so your numbers dont mean anything really, why would you hear about peoples illegal activity? They would be worth a fair bit considering people fork out ridiculous amounts of money for these rare hybrids and if you think these people love these animals then why are they trying to change them? When you love something you dont need to change it.



Actually they are worth very little overseas where they are legal, around $600 to $650 for the descent looking ones. I doubt they would be worth much more here, especially being illegal.


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## Newhere (Feb 15, 2014)

Something is only worth what another person is willing to pay for it and being illegal you would think the price would be higher compared to somewhere they are legal and easily available. Thats how see it anyway.


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## champagne (Feb 15, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Something is only worth what another person is willing to pay for it and being illegal you would think the price would be higher compared to somewhere they are legal and easily available. Thats how see it anyway.



yeah you are probably right, there are a lot of hero's who like to think they are bad *** lol


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## Newhere (Feb 15, 2014)

Lol and they'll pay big to prove it.


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