# albino jungle



## Frozenmouse (Dec 2, 2007)

If you crossed an albino nt with a b/g jungle or any other normal carpet and then bred the het offspring together would you get albino offspring. and if this process was repeated a few times would it be possible to introduce the albino gene to a line of jungles or coastals.


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## abbott75 (Dec 2, 2007)

In theory it is possible, but the purists will flame you over it.


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## da_donkey (Dec 2, 2007)

yes and it is/has been done as we speak 

*stands back and waits for it*


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## MrSpike (Dec 2, 2007)

How can you get rid of the Darwin in them, when thats where the albino gene comes from. As long as they have anything to do with the Albino Darwin gene, they aren't able to have the Darwin bred out of them.


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## da_donkey (Dec 2, 2007)

yes your right spike, and to answer the question a bit more accuratly, yes you can introduce the albino gene to a jungle line but it will allways be a jungle x line no matter how much breeding to pure jungles is done after the first cross.

There are hatchies available this season i belive.


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## MrBredli (Dec 2, 2007)

No, you cannot make an albino Jungle, only an albino Jungle-looking hybrid.


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## bigi (Dec 2, 2007)

in dog breeding circles i believe if you cross breed an animal then breed it back through original lines (five times i think) it can then be registered as a pure bred


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## mrmikk (Dec 2, 2007)

Find/breed an albino Jungle and you won't have to worry about the Darwin influence.


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## Aslan (Dec 2, 2007)

*Dabool* - You can introduce the gene to a line of Jungles - but they will never be Jungles again...

...as Donk has stated - expect to see this soon - I sympathise with the poor person who breeds the first legitimate Albino Jungles etc - the way hybridisation is coming along it will be almost impossible to convince anyone they are 'Pure'...


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## motman440 (Dec 2, 2007)

yeh. you could breed it back to a jungle again. after five gens
BUT
you won have the albino gene in them still


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## SnakePower (Dec 2, 2007)

No you would have the albino gene still present, and if they are originally produced by crossing a darwin with a jungle, then breeding the offspring you will get albino jungles, but as a few have already said, they will be jungle crosses. If you then breed them to jungles again, then breed those offspring, you will be getting a more % Jungle, but as said again, it will still always have darwin blood preset. 
What you can end up with is like the yanks say.. 88% diamond jungle, or 50% diamond jungle, etc but it would be a % Jungle/Darwin.

That is unless the albino mutation spontaniously gets bred in a pure line of jungles, but unfortunately.. again as others have said before, the poor breeder that is actually lucky enough for this to happen for them will always have a very hard time getting anyone to actually believe they are of pure jungle origins.


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## cement (Dec 2, 2007)

You could in theory breed the albino darwin into many morelia subspecies. I feel that in the next ten years we will be crossing the line from having good pure Aussie stock to being a Mcdonalds franchise.
Sad, but I don't think people will be able to resist the temptation of hybridisation and dollars.


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 2, 2007)

the reason i put this forward is not because i was curious weather or not it is possible, as i know it is. i thought i would put it out there as comercial preassure will cause this to happen i am sure. i am all for keeping the carpet sub species pure. it is my understanding that the smaller jungles can be sexually mature with a hyper diet in 2 1/2 years where as an nt 3 1/2 -4 1/2 years minimum so there will be the temptation for this to occur. as for them not being pure jungles after the fifth time around of breeding pure junlges back to hets i caculate that they will be 1/64th nt or 1.5 % nt and 98.5% jungle left in the line pretty pure i recon. how many jungle lines out there are that pure wild or captive.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 2, 2007)

There is no such thing as pretty pure, even after 20 generations it still wont be a pure jungle. But I do agree a lot of the so called jungles out there are probably tainted.


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 2, 2007)

mean while back in the real world 1.5% is close enough to being pure. unless you have a degree in advanced genetics and work daily with dna testing or more over run the line back through the het offspring once more and make it 1/128th or 0.8% nt and 99.2% jungle. thats only six generations.so 20 .generations would make 0.004% nt


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## MrSpike (Dec 2, 2007)

6 generations and about 20 years of line breeding.

As long as the Albino gene is in the "Jungles" then they are not pure.


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 2, 2007)

for sale albino jungle hatchlings due nov 2028 lol.


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## Reptile City (Dec 2, 2007)

Its illegal Aust wide to cross breed reptiles!
NPWL are doing a lot of research on identifiying cross species through DNA.
They are already useing it for court cases with proving tproof he reptiles didnt come from the breeders they stated.
Jason


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## SnakePower (Dec 2, 2007)

The other thing is each time you breed a het albino jungle x or albino jungle x back to a jungle, you will not end up with any albino animals. To have any albino offspring there must be an albinoo gene present in both parents. So you could go on doing it as long as you like and you will never get pure or 99.9% pure (whatever) albino jungle! Unless it is a cross!


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## Ramsayi (Dec 2, 2007)

City Reptiles said:


> Its illegal Aust wide to cross breed reptiles!
> NPWL are doing a lot of research on identifiying cross species through DNA.
> They are already useing it for court cases with proving tproof he reptiles didnt come from the breeders they stated.
> Jason



Jason,
Where did you hear about what NPWS are doing from?


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## abbott75 (Dec 2, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> The other thing is each time you breed a het albino jungle x or albino jungle x back to a jungle, you will not end up with any albino animals. To have any albino offspring there must be an albinoo gene present in both parents. So you could go on doing it as long as you like and you will never get pure or 99.9% pure (whatever) albino jungle! Unless it is a cross!



Have two lines of hets going, when you are satisfied with their purity, cross them together. Magic albinos.


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 2, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> The other thing is each time you breed a het albino jungle x or albino jungle x back to a jungle, you will not end up with any albino animals. To have any albino offspring there must be an albinoo gene present in both parents. So you could go on doing it as long as you like and you will never get pure or 99.9% pure (whatever) albino jungle! Unless it is a cross!


 ok you have miss understood the process albino cross normal = 100% het offspring breed these het offspring together you will get some albinos take the albino offspring and repeat. this is how simon developed a line of albinos from blondie a single albino, the whole process is documented on the southern cross reptiles site. exept he used pure darwins in the process, nice ones at that i must say too, some of the best nt s i have seen.


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 2, 2007)

City Reptiles said:


> Its illegal Aust wide to cross breed reptiles!
> NPWL are doing a lot of research on identifiying cross species through DNA.
> They are already useing it for court cases with proving tproof he reptiles didnt come from the breeders they stated.
> Jason


 yes it is illegal to cross species, not subspecies tho.


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## SnakePower (Dec 2, 2007)

Dabool said:


> ok you have miss understood the process albino cross normal = 100% het offspring breed these het offspring together you will get some albinos take the albino offspring and repeat. this is how simon developed a line of albinos from blondie a single albino, the whole process is documented on the southern cross reptiles site. exept he used pure darwins in the process, nice ones at that i must say too, some of the best nt s i have seen.



No Dabool, I totally understand the process. The point is if you take an albino and create jungle hets, then breed them to become jungle albino crosses, even if you repeat the whole process over a number of times, so taking a 50% jungle albino darwin and breeding back to a jungle, then breeding the offspring (hets) back to each other, they still are partly darwin albino. And breeding them over and over will reduce the % of darwin blood, but the fact remains they will have originated from darwin albino cross jungle stock, they will always have the cross blood in them, even if they are 99% jungle. Can someone else back this statement?? 

Or maybe I am just dumb and don't understand that crossing albino into jungles will actually make pure albino jungles!!


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 2, 2007)

you said you wont end up with albino animals this is not true at all .. thats what i was outlining i totally agree that the snakes will not be pure albino jungles, that was never up for debate.


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## Aslan (Dec 3, 2007)

*Dabool* - My understanding is that it is only illegal to cross species in certain states - it definately should be across the board (however, this certainly doesn't stop it occurring) - but my understanding was that this rule was different state to state...


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 3, 2007)

And subspecies dont count!!!! As subspecies are not always accepted by some scientists and they are challenged amongst their peers. Cross species are wrong! I beleive people will pay more something that is pretty. Darwin pythons in my opinion are nothing in comparison to Jungles and a cross between the subspecies would make for some interesting High yellow albinos, with a jungle head pattern. It is how it started in the US, offer someone a snake that blows your mind in colouration and you could ask what you want for it!!!!


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## waruikazi (Dec 3, 2007)

We'll just have to wait and see if the high % jungle albinos look better than the 100% darwins. High red albino darwis are going to be hard to beat.


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## Colin (Dec 3, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> No Dabool, I totally understand the process. The point is if you take an albino and create jungle hets, then breed them to become jungle albino crosses, even if you repeat the whole process over a number of times, so taking a 50% jungle albino darwin and breeding back to a jungle, then breeding the offspring (hets) back to each other, they still are partly darwin albino. And breeding them over and over will reduce the % of darwin blood, but the fact remains they will have originated from darwin albino cross jungle stock, they will always have the cross blood in them, even if they are 99% jungle. Can someone else back this statement??
> 
> Or maybe I am just dumb and don't understand that crossing albino into jungles will actually make pure albino jungles!!




what you said is correct Zac. These hybrids will always have some darwin blood and never ever be pure jungles again no matter how mant times they are line bred etc. 

I just feel sorry for the person the produces the first real pure albino jungle.


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## indicus (Dec 3, 2007)

Albino's occur in most species; so it wouldn't surprise me if they are seen in jungles one day.
As has been expressed the breeder will have to explain how, when, and why?; due to the crossing of morphs we sadly see these days.
I can only hope it's found in the wild and not sourced from a breeder.....least it will remove almost all doubt of it's purity.
It can be argued that all M.s. variegata are genetically the same; and as in this thread; that they haven't 'AS YET' been proven to be different.
So does that then give us an excuse; the right; to prematurely to cross breed animals;
that on the surface appear very different in regards colour, pattern and behaviour....
not to mention animals that have live in extremely different habitats; have different egg sizes and clutch sizes?....I ask you?
Ok, so greed prevails; man and his sick ways decides to take it upon himself to go ahead and breed according to his own needs; showing no respect for the animals IMO. He fools himself into thinking he truly loves and respects the diverse forms which we are lucky to have in Australia....who the hell are you kidding?
What will these keepers say in the future; if, and when; with further research, we may find out; that yes; that they are quite different?.....how observant  
Oh sorry...oh well???...some consolation; but yes your right in one aspect; someone will buy it 
It can also be argued; that those that line breed for colour and pattern also fail to take into account that they to; have distorted the look of the pure forms as seen the wild; and as such now have created an animal which is tainted. This may very be true.....but the reality is; if these were to be released back into wild stocks (not that it will happen) they in fact, over time, would revert back to the colour forms already expressed by the majority already found within the wild. Keep in mind; more often then not; line breeding brings out the extremities of what's to be found in the wild....it doesn't allow the crossing of to different forms that are far removed from one another ...in habitat, in over all body size, in behaviour, breeding times, clutch sizes etc etc.
IMO; sorry; but i for one believe these breeders are foolish and greedy; showing little regard for the stunning forms and morphs we are already lucky enough to have and work with....lets not even consider all the pure morphs still to be explored as of yet.....
Sad times; when we have some of the best pythons the world has to offer.
So do we have to play follow the leader with countries; that have bugger all to offer; other then hybrids and mongrels?


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 3, 2007)

You made some valid points. But i am sure you realise that releasing any reptiles back into the wild will never happen. As it will damage the purity of the gene pool of wild populations. And yes Humans have taken it upon themselves to cross different races, strains, species etc to produce a higher quility of product. Take for instance our grains, cattle, sheep, any form of natural produce. Not to mention domesticated animals, that also had their origins from the wild. There is always an argument about this topic. I believe fully that there is much to be said about the taxonomy systems that they use for animals these days. In most cases its a bunch of scientists with overinflated egos that come up with these systems, more than likely wanting to coin a species name. Till genetic studies prove otherwise


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## richardsc (Dec 3, 2007)

yes its possible and getting done,but u just end up with albino mongrels,eg u wont have an albino jungle,it will be an albino darwin crossed with a jungle,also as albinos are popular as a money making thing,those crosses would be further crossed with other subspecies,as a faster option to make returns,not with everyone,but it will be there no doubt,close enough to pure isnt pure,lol,your still looking at mongrels,each to there own though


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## junglepython2 (Dec 3, 2007)

Indicus, if your reference to tainted jungles was directed at my earlier comments, I was simply referring to jungle lines that may not be pure and may have been crossed with something else in previous generations. Not to pure lines that have been line bred and now look different to their wild counterparts, I certainly don't consider them to be tainted as I totally agree with what you have just said.


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## Colin (Dec 3, 2007)

> Humans have taken it upon themselves to cross different races, strains, species etc to produce a higher quility of product.



there is nothing wrong with the natural pure strains of Jungle's and Darwin's. They don't need 'fixing" by hydbridization. 

Reptiles are living creatures. Hybridising them is done purely out of greed $$$ and to make money at the detriment of the species. The excuse made overseas for hybridisation of Australian snakes because of the lack of animals to work with does not apply here in Australia


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## caustichumor (Dec 3, 2007)

It seems to me that the reptile keeping hobby is too caught up with breeding "Morphs" (for want of a better word,) the integrity of the genetics comes in second place to what abnormal characteristics can be developed. This thread demonstrates that perfectly, cross an albino NW with something else to intergrate an unnatural genetic trait into a new subspecies. The reptile keeping hobby in Australia should be concentrating on keeping good pure bloodlines. (But as long as Albino's, and all forms of weird morphs bring in the big bucks I can't see that happening) Eventually the American Hobby will find itself with no pure subspecific species at all.


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## Australis (Dec 3, 2007)

There are people who honestly think you can create hybrids, then breed them back to a pure
form!! This i imagine would mean they would sell diluted crosses as "pure"? 

Its a worry, when someone can try to attach concepts of purity from domestic animals like goats 
to our Native fauna, to justify their actions.





indicus said:


> So do we have to play follow the leader with countries; that have bugger all to offer; other then hybrids and mongrels?



I totally agree with you there, i dont think we need to follow every trend 
that is happening over seas. 
After all we as Australians are keeping our native fauna
enough reason to stand alone, i reckon.
Appreciate the unique fauna we have.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 3, 2007)

Totally agree with Indicus and Colin on this issue.

Once tainted it IS impossible to get back to pure again.As far as pure morphs go at least they are naturallly occurring (even if rarely).Yes people like "eye candy" but this can still be achieved by selective breeding without having to resort to hybridising.


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## NickM (Dec 3, 2007)

it would be a shame if Australia repeated the same mistakes that US keepers made. We have the same situation going on right now with these ridiculouse jaguar carpets. Some breeders are past the 75% mark in their hybrids and literally racing for the highest % crosses. We also see 3 and 4 way intergrades, Things like Diamond/Jungle/Jags and IJ/Jungle/Jags These animinals are a genetic catastrophe.

The biggest problem is not the hybrid morph animals , they are easily avoided. The problem is the normals produced with them,'


When someone makes an 88% jungle albino they will also be making quite a few 88% jungle hybrids that are normal, all of wich will look exactly like pure jungles.

Since nobody will want the crossed normals they get sold cheaply and sooner or later they magically become "pure" jungles again.

This happens every day over here and its getting worse every day. Hybrid breeders will always make the same tired excuses about "honestly representing the hybrids" but the reality is that they WILL be mis-represtened at some point, either on purpose or by mistake.

Nick


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 3, 2007)

There is clearly a miss coception as to what is available overseas???? It is possible to source more locality specific animals in the overseas market. It is also done legally. The australian reptile community does also not care about buying snakes on someones word that they are pure of provenance. There are few keepers out there that can actually say where they collected their animals and there are even less that can say they bred a snake with another snake that was caught in their natural occuring range. The truth of the matter is that these animals will never be released back into the wild, under no circumastances. Name one example in australia where captive bred stock was released back into the wild. And as for market value, I dont see anyone complaining about paying for some of the mongrel GTPs that are flooding the market????? Makes you think does'nt it. How many people on this forum has bought snakes from a breeder who said an animal was pure??? Take someones word of mouth, unfortunately very few people know exactly where their animals come from. Because someone says its from a specific region does not mean they are telling the truth. As for hybrids, People will pay for anything that is spectacular regardless of its origin. As long as the breeder is honest about the origin of the animals. The truth is that a cross between a Jungle and a darwin looks exactly like a jungle!!!! They are actually prettier than a straight jungle, and if the mother was high yellow then the babies are even brighter at around the 6 month mark. And i can also see that these could be confused with true jungles. But each to their own. If a person keeps any type of animal in captivity then they are playing God.


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 3, 2007)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> You made some valid points. But i am sure you realise that releasing any reptiles back into the wild will never happen. As it will damage the purity of the gene pool of wild populations. And yes Humans have taken it upon themselves to cross different races, strains, species etc to produce a higher quility of product. Take for instance our grains, cattle, sheep, any form of natural produce. Not to mention domesticated animals, that also had their origins from the wild. There is always an argument about this topic. I believe fully that there is much to be said about the taxonomy systems that they use for animals these days. In most cases its a bunch of scientists with overinflated egos that come up with these systems, more than likely wanting to coin a species name. Till genetic studies prove otherwise


 i know of people that have lost jungles,coastals,ect,ect, in areas which have heavy populations natural populations of NT carpets. i am sure this happens on the east coast too so to think there are many pure wild snakes left is is madness exept in the most remote places.


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## whatsup (Dec 3, 2007)

didn't they release some womas somewhere in south oz not long ago?


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## rockman (Dec 3, 2007)

I thought someone was already breeding a albino male carpet with everything else ( carpets ) , to produce something different ( ie : money ) , this year . 
I heard it was darwin x everything . LOL 
Maybe it was an acciadent , you know , my snake got out and shagged everything else in the room and then put its self back in the cage .LOL
Be fun to see what happens to these animals .
Cheers


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## cement (Dec 3, 2007)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> There is clearly a miss coception as to what is available overseas???? It is possible to source more locality specific animals in the overseas market. It is also done legally. The australian reptile community does also not care about buying snakes on someones word that they are pure of provenance. There are few keepers out there that can actually say where they collected their animals and there are even less that can say they bred a snake with another snake that was caught in their natural occuring range.
> 
> This may be a case of the Aus marketplace being a youngster. Most people who want a snake for a pet don't know anything about provenence or purity, they just want a snake.
> If your not buying on someones word, whats your options, get a DNA test, I don't know of anyone who has done that. Is that the way to go? Can I get a certificate certifying my pair of BHPs are actually Pilbarra? I know the breeder is a well respected breeder and his word is all I had to go on.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 4, 2007)

And where did they collect the Mary river turtle from???? Come on give me a better example. When animals are actually collected from a given area with the purpose of releasing their offspring back into the wild its different. Its controlled and scientific. Show me this type of control when it comes to collecting for the reptile hobby. If the animals are represented for what they are, Designer snakes then I cant see any issues arrising.


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## indicus (Dec 4, 2007)

Is their any positive with breeding Morelia hybrids?; if, please tell me?
IMO the only positive; is for the breeders pockets; not to mention his/her desire; 
to have something different; hopefully beautiful (understandable); but sadly seems to be the case; saleable.
How could it by any means be beneficial for the animals in question? both in captivity and in the wild?
I'm sure all those who have a passion in reptiles can appreciate a stunning specimen;
whether it be a hybrid or not.....but at the risk of tainting all those in the hobby?; or the wild for that matter;
I'd like to think not. 
In all fairness, there are many that could be viewed as being 'short sighted'.....

Why would you not think reptiles; 'never be released back into the wild?'
I myself have taken part in a JCU breeding program; to restock Boyd's into the wild...
Was this breeding program of any use to the Boyd's population; maybe not, maybe so; either way it's a step in the right direction.
Surely we have all seen that captive breeding/propagation has been used to restock and replenish all forms of flora and fauna;
for many years both in Australia and overseas .....turn on a TV or read a newspaper.
Admittedly we as Australians could be considered 'lucky' in comparison to other parts of the world...can we learn from others mistakes?; maybe not.
One can only hope; with careful management; we as reptile breeders/keepers; can as a industry/hobby;
be able to put the welfare of our reptiles foremost; for the benefit of all concerned wild or captive; for now and for future generations.
Do we have a responsibility as keepers towards educating the public of the importance of keeping our lines pure to the best of our ability;
or do we flog off more designer hybrid's; to finance further experimentation?....would this not increase the chances of confusing already tainted so called pure lines?....We can all see that there are in fact many forms of Morelia that have been distorted/tainted/hybridised to some degree; should we then continue to make the same mistakes?; as we are responsible now and for the future for all those that share our fascination/passion.
It's interesting to note, that zoo's are held accountable for they way they display their animals and the information they supply; so we are not?
What about petshops?; how many times have we been seen to 'slam' some of them for poor husbandry?;
or having supplied a new keeper with a pet that maybe of poor standard?....not to mention wingding that they need better educated staff.
We out way both industries in terms of the numbers of keepers and the collective size of our collections;
so 'yes'; I believe we do have a responsibility towards educating the public; and do play an important role in conservation and species management.

Do we have any pure lines left in the hobby? 
You can rest assured that there are a lot of breeders in this country that strive to keep their lines pure to the best of their ability.....that's a start
Do you not think that some those keepers that declared reptiles on the NSW amnesty; wouldn't know where their lines originated?.......
Where do you think a lot of it came from?
What about those old school keepers that have been breeding since the 70's?;
Do i take the word of some old keeper; who knows where he collected his line; or maybe i stand a better chance that a newbie clearly remembers; that he has in fact bred eg: a Jungle x Darwin over a Diamond x Bredli cross.....yes i can see how we stand a better chance; honesty prevailing.
Don't you think that some of those governing bodies who's forward thinking; have allowed wild collecting to a certain degree....helped
us towards obtaining suitable founder stock; that does in fact allow for good locality data towards some species now seen to be firmly established in captivity. 
Shame more morelia haven't been collected hey? however it does open the door; so who knows....we may very well obtain more pure lines.

"I don't see anyone complaining about paying for some of the mongrel GTPs that are flooding the market????? Makes you think doesn't it."
What choice has there been for those wishing to obtain a GTP?.....does that make it right?; probably not;
but we can live in hope that more pure lines are developed over time.....and yes i agree; 'greed' does prevail in some cases; doesn't it?
- "People will pay for anything that is spectacular regardless of its origin"
"a cross between a Jungle and a Darwin looks exactly like a jungle"......great; another reason we should be happy to embrace the idea of breeding hybrids.
"Till genetic studies prove otherwise".....some of us will endeavour to breed as many different hybrids as we can; sound reasoning; very responsible....well done.

I find it interesting that if; eg: a member of the public kills a snake; or a kid finds one in his garden; then keeps it in a fish tank; more often then not; they are deemed irresponsible and get hammered on the forums.....yet those that openly admit to breed various hybrids and create freaks for financial gain; are accepted for the most part; considering the future implications that could very well change the face of how we see reptiles in captivity or worse still in the wild.....
Odd to say the least......food for thought; isn't it?... As has been expressed; each to their own.


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## Colin (Dec 4, 2007)

rockman said:


> I thought someone was already breeding a albino male carpet with everything else ( carpets ) , to produce something different ( ie : money ) , this year .
> I heard it was darwin x everything.



Yeah I heard the same. (imo) Its all about greed nothing else, no matter whatever spin they try and put on it. It's definitely not about the welfare of our Australian native reptiles that's for sure. 

I agree with indicus.


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## Colin (Dec 4, 2007)

NickM said:


> it would be a shame if Australia repeated the same mistakes that US keepers made. We have the same situation going on right now with these ridiculouse jaguar carpets. Some breeders are past the 75% mark in their hybrids and literally racing for the highest % crosses. We also see 3 and 4 way intergrades, Things like Diamond/Jungle/Jags and IJ/Jungle/Jags These animinals are a genetic catastrophe.
> 
> The biggest problem is not the hybrid morph animals , they are easily avoided. The problem is the normals produced with them,'
> 
> ...



Read that waruikazi. Thats what Nick (from USA) has to say about these mongrel hybrids. Once its done its too late to turn back. And there is a big difference breeding jungle x jungle for pattern and colour etc and darwin x jungle.

The problem is hybrids polluting the captive pure animals. What happens when these hybrids (that may look very much like pure animals) get sold a few times and end up in someones collection, polluting their captive stock. 

Thers no sour grapes sport. I have albinos and over 15 Jungles and if I wanted, I could cross them myself. But thankfully I don't.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 4, 2007)

Its funny how all the keepers with albinos say that making hybrids are for monetary benefit when clearly they are of a lesser quality than pure forms. So how will they be making money??? Good little contradiction. On the other hand if the public likes the look of these highly colourful different animals then they might even be more popular than the pure lines. I would like to know what these eco warriors are going to charge the government for animals to release back into the wild or if they would just help them out with a couple of hundred animals??? They will never release snakes and especially pythons back into the wild as there would be a risk of introducing diseases lik IBD and opmv. I would know this as i have helped out with quite a few environmental impact studies. For animals to be released back into wild populations they would be harvested from an area, put in a guarantene facility away from others and then years down the line be re introduced. Get real!!!!! As for the Boyds, they were probably kept in pits out doors in their natural habitat and had no contact with ones that were sourced out of captivity??? Am i right. At the end of the day i would like to see snow, patternless, axantic, reduced pattern, hypo etc. type albinos and normal carpet pythons on the market. This will keep the hobby interesting like all the colourful snakes and morphs have done in overseas collections!!!! Maybe even coastals will become popular if they are in an albino form. A 4metre python that white, Beautiful!!!


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## indicus (Dec 4, 2007)

MH; why have you have avoided most of my questions?.
Either way; you have pointed out to us numerous times in this thread alone; that your in it for yourself;
by your need/or want; to produce 'stunners' hybrids; freaks; yes that's right....why again; cash?. 
You yourself; have clearly demonstrated; to show little compassion for our unique fauna; and even elude to the fact that all those keepers entering the reptile industry; are just interested purchasing your hybrid's; because they don't know any better, and want of a stunning snake........give me a break!!!!; don't be-little us all.
I guess it's more important to be greed driven hey?....rather then show some sound reasoning and be responsible for ones actions? considering the mistakes countries have made regarding their species.
You now inform me you have taken part in impact studies....OMG!!!! is all I can say. 
Mate; never say never.....we have seen the captive breeding and release of many species; regardless of the issue of disease.....take all the different bird species; our cute and cuddlies etc etc....
Hopefully our herps are in better standing; call us lucky at this stage....not for long by the look of it.
If you for a moment think that your argument is sound (in the best interests of our reptile industry; and those to found within the wild)..... I'll leave that for others to speculate....after all we are all entitle to our opinion; even though we may have to agree to disagree.
You can only imagine what I think.
Ones thing is certain; as time progresses; I am sure we will follow down the path of the U.S.A etc; in regards to morphs; trends etc..which probably wont be avoided.....this mentality only proves it IMO. 
You may now stand proud; to know that you may even be remembered as one of those that helped get us there....Good for you mate; good luck. 
P.S But please do continue with your rambling's; i do for one find it interesting


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 4, 2007)

The hard reality remains that this is not an ideal world and people do regularly have snakes escape into the wild. This in my opinion is a price to high to allow the selfish practice. There are many examples of vulnerable, fragmented areas of habitat that can easily become tainted by escapes e.g. the small pockets of rainforest scattered around Innisfail.

As for the view that people in Australia do not care about locale specific pure reptiles, I have seen first hand the continual growth in regards to demand for these sorts of reptiles, because that’s exactly what we specialize in. 

As a result of this wide spread practice by a minority, I find it somewhat disappointing to see so quickly, the confusion and doubt shown over the identity of many reptiles that people have either have purchased or offered up for sale. I feel though, that the horse has already bolted.


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## Retic (Dec 4, 2007)

I agree there Dave, an escaped snake can easily badly pollute important wild populations which actually DOES impact on our native wildlife.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 4, 2007)

There was a sad site after the cyclone that smashed Innisfail two seasons ago. Here was this huge ugly Brisbane carpet that stuck out like dogs nuts in the destroyed bush inside the Township its self. A scary scenario obviously crossed my mind.


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## Retic (Dec 4, 2007)

Yes I can imagine and of course the opposite scenario is also a worry. Whenever snake is kept outside of it's natural habitat there is always the possibility of this sort of problem occuring.


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## richardsc (Dec 4, 2007)

what would they call the crossed albino,lol,an albino dangle carpet python,pmsl,id prefer a black and gold over an albino anyways,i dont care what people say,i still think the normals look so much prettyer,eg darwins and olives,if i wanted something big and yellow,id buy a pool noodle,save my self 11 and a half grand to,lol,that buys alot of normals


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## NickM (Dec 4, 2007)

I am hearing all of the same excuses I hear in the US from hybrid breeders.

For anyone who thinks it would be more "exiting" to have a herpmarket like the one we have, they should be carefull what they wish for.

The longterm damage to a captive gene pool that these animals represent is hard to comprehend,

When I was much younger and just starting to breed herps 12 years ago. I produced two clutches of DiaomondXCoastal intergrades.. At the time I thought it fine to do since they intergrade in the wild, at least that was how I justified it to myself at the time.

I produced around 40 intergrades and of them honestly for what they were, so if others are to be believed they should not have caused any problem right?

I later sold the adults and I actually watched as the new owner bred the male toa female coastal and then simply sold them as coastals, wehn he knew exactly what they were.

I sold a few to the local pet shops as well, also telling them exactly what they were. I think the shops perhaps did not want to bother explaining to people what they were so they also simply sold them as coastal carpets.

It was after seeing all of these animals that I hade "honestly represented" being mis-represented by the very poeple I sold them to, that I decided to never again work with intergrades.

And one last point to illustrate the loingterm effects of this short sighted breeding. There is currently an intergrade that I propduced in 1995 that is for sale at a local shop and to no surprise at all it is being sold as a coastal!!!

So even ater 12 years these animals are still changing hands and still being mis-represented. Still causing problems to anyone who wants pure stock.


Nick


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 4, 2007)

Yes indicus you seem to know what my intentions are as much as you know me. How can i be in it to make money if my snakes are worthless????? Please show me one sound species that was bred in private hands by private keepers, not governmental funding that has ever been released into the wild. And even better would be an example of a snake???? And this excludes any form of zoo. I am talking private, like you and me???????? Not for one moment have i questioned you about your beliefs and practices, You dont know how many pure locality animals are bred by me nor what my opinion is of that. I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definately seperate the sub species.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 4, 2007)

Come on MH,how can you say " I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definately seperate the sub species." ? unless it is a tongue in cheek comment to begin with.What if genetic data proves they are all definate subspecies.It might convince to to stop hybridising but the horse by then would of well and truly bolted.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 4, 2007)

Of course I have an issue with people crossing carpet pythons with Morelia bredli and Morelia spillota! These have been proven to be genetically different to each other. And yes i have stated before that i would like to see what these combinations could yield but every person is entitled to change their mind.


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## Australis (Dec 4, 2007)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definately seperate the sub species.





Morelia_Hunter said:


> Of course I have an issue with people crossing carpet pythons with Morelia bredli and Morelia spillota! These have been proven to be genetically different to each other. And yes i have stated before that i would like to see what these combinations could yield but every person is entitled to change their mind.



Was there some legality issues in Victoria that helped change your mind on the Bredli and Diamond Hets?

Because you sure didnt seem to have a problem with the rest................. 

"Darwin to Jungle"

"Darwin to Carpet Intergrade" (*Which is what anyways? a Diamond x Jungle?*)

"Darwin to Prosepine variety Carpet"


When your above combinations are expressed in a Albino form, they might very well be hard 
to seperate from a pure Darwin form, causing confussion down the line.

Im glad, i atleast know some people who will only ever produce true Albino Darwins.,


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 4, 2007)

And i'll be one of those breeding pure darwins. But lets see what happens. Only time will tell.


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## mrmikk (Dec 4, 2007)

City Reptiles said:


> Its illegal Aust wide to cross breed reptiles!
> NPWL are doing a lot of research on identifiying cross species through DNA.
> They are already useing it for court cases with proving tproof he reptiles didnt come from the breeders they stated.
> Jason


 
NO disrespect Jason, but the NSW Govt are funding this kind of thing?, What a waste of taxpayer dollars that would be much better spent beefing up Customs ability to prevent the entry of pests into this country.


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## rockman (Dec 4, 2007)

You may have to give your male a break , he will all shagged out .
After all the different sorts of carpets , do you think he will ever be able to go back just shagging his own kind .All those nice colours of the jungles and diamonds , he will never look at a darwin again .
HA HA HA 





Morelia_Hunter said:


> And i'll be one of those breeding pure darwins. But lets see what happens. Only time will tell.


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## cement (Dec 4, 2007)

waruikazi;. Captive stock does nothing to impact the welfare of any native animal![/quote said:


> Here is a scene I have come across. Tweed valley, Stokers Siding, I am walking through the cow paddocks to my neighbours house and on his property up in a tree is a Bredli laying up next to a dull coloured coastal. We didn't know anything about how snakes bred or that they were even breeding, we just caught them and moved them of his property because his kids played in that spot. The next day we caught the bredli again crossing the road, so we took it off the road (thinking we were doing it a favour) and put it further up in the bush. Couple of days later it was dead, run over, on the road.
> 
> Few years later, I am asked by a cuz to come with him to a breeders house, he bought a Bredli from someone on the central Coast. Few years later again he moves to Queensland. What happens? his Bredli escapes. I spent a week looking for it when I was up there not long ago as it has been sighted by his neighbour and is apparantly doing ok. I was keen to remove it from the wild because of these problems I now am aware of as I am now into snakes.
> 
> ...


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## indicus (Dec 5, 2007)

MH; the relevance of this discussion; is not whether private keepers will now, or in the future; be responsible towards releasing captive bred Morelia back into the wild!!!
You and myself are not in the position to say whether this will happen either way; so lets not speculate any further......
As expressed; the captive breeding/propagation of many species has been used to restock areas in the wild; both here and overseas;
where a particular need to do so has arisen; this cannot be argued......
Should the need arise; or given the opportunity; it is of importance to keep our lines pure as possible; whether it will happen or wont.....simple!!!
We all can clearly see some very sound reasoning as to the importance of maintaining lines that are kept pure as possible; and issues/problems; that may arise from creating Hybrids/crosses......
You have yet again; failed to address any of these issues (IMO one should); even though it has been pointed out to you; by keepers here and overseas.
To take it upon yourself (and others) to produce these hybrids/crosses; shows a blatant disregard for our unique fauna; and IMO; to knowingly do so is criminal!!!
It's beyond me; that those; responsible for licensing within your state allow those like yourself to carry out such foolish practises?; whether your state recognises subspecies or not; is irreverent.....
Can you deny having ever attempted to KNOWINGLY breed subspecies; with the aim to create hybrids or crosses?
MH; 'lets not beat around the bush'....I believe you do; have a sound knowledge (let me not isault your intellegence) of Morelia; and am sure as a keeper who maintains a better then average collection of various subspecies; can see the 'oblivious differences between them; so find your reasoning to do so "questionable"; as do I find your "excuse"
MH - "I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definitely separate the sub species."
MH - "I believe people will pay more something that is pretty"
MH - "People will pay for anything that is spectacular regardless of its origin"
MH - "How can I be in it to make money if my snakes are worthless?????"....So it's not for financial gain?; see why one finds it confusing then?
I don't have a problem with anyone earning from their hobby; it's the creating of hybrids/crosses that is inexcuseable. 
You are correct; I don't know you; but can only base an opinion; on what you yourself have stated?....have you mislead me?
No I don't know how many locality animals are bred by you; but sorry; with your outlook/views on Morelia; can only leave me feeling;
that your lines of locality Morelia can be considered 'questionable' at best.
I'm sorry as i feel i have wasted your time and mine; no use can come from "banging my head against a wall"
besides a headache


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## OzGecko (Dec 5, 2007)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Please show me one sound species that was bred in private hands by private keepers, not governmental funding that has ever been released into the wild. And even better would be an example of a snake???? And this excludes any form of zoo. I am talking private, like you and me????????



A few years back a woman down here was breeding SA Murray Darlings to release back onto her property in the Adelaide hills, where they were once found. No funding from Zoo's or government agencies, with approval of NPWS to do so (release the animals).


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## Jozz (Dec 5, 2007)

Did she lose her whole collection from disease?


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 5, 2007)

i if you notice on some of the american herp store web sites they have advertisments saying things like "dna proven pure coastal" ect. and the more % pure the bloodline of the jag is the more expensive they are ,this to me says there is ecconomic preassure on having pure animals starting to occur in the usa, so if the hard working aussie breeders that are sticking to pure lines with desired traits, ie, jag , striping, ect will eventually end up with much more valuable snakes. not only from the point of view of ecconomics but from a natural history point of view. maybe.


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## SnakeWrangler (Dec 5, 2007)

Can anyone give me a single solid reason for why animals in captivity or in the wild should be kept pure?


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## caustichumor (Dec 5, 2007)

At the moment It's the law... Solid enough?


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## SnakeWrangler (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm not talking about legal ramifications, of course if its against the law (in some states at least), the court will find such an act guilty. But that still doesn't determine if it is in fact right or wrong, morally. Do you base your moral system upon the law and modify it when the laws change? Or is your moral system independent of the law?


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 5, 2007)

SnakeWrangler said:


> Can anyone give me a single solid reason for why animals in captivity or in the wild should be kept pure?


 No one probably can give a good reason right now , but if we look back on australia's history of playing with nature like the introduction of feral animals ect it can sometimes be hard to forsee disasters such as cane toads and rabbits ect. and even what happens to native species when given altered habbitats eg red kangaroo s when they have ample water all year round , also there is the possability of extordinary questions that can be answered when we unlock the gene s in some pure strains of animals that could be lost forever when mixing them, but as for a firm answer on why we shouldnt,, but you could also ask what happens when they are not kept pure? who knows. so its a tough question you have asked


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## ad (Dec 5, 2007)

indicus said:


> No I don't know how many locality animals are bred by you; but sorry; with your outlook/views on Morelia; can only leave me feeling;
> that your lines of locality Morelia can be considered 'questionable' at best.




Lmao - Careful Indicus, I suggested this to a newbie once who was so keen on producing hybrids and he had a hissy fit that is still going at last check! lol
Funnily enough he has changed his views on hybrids apparently, or deserted his poor mate MH - who, in the face of overwhelming common sense, still insists he is on the right path.


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## indicus (Dec 5, 2007)

Why?
To maintain a species integrity and its bio-diversity....
'Pure' -to be free from corruption or contamination.
eg; If in North Queensland I'd like to know I can see a jungle carpet; if in central Australia, a Bredli; in N.S.W a Diamond and so on....each unique, and special in it's own way; adapted and suited to the environment in which it lives; or originates from.
Lets not forget mention; that the more we (humans)....manipulate nature; the more screwed up it becomes...look at the many problems expressed in examples of other cross breeds. 
Just for example sake; mix a half a dozen different colours of 'play- doe' together....looks good for a while; rainbow coloured and all...Keep mixing together; what do you end up with; yes that's right; a crappy colour; that shows no resemblance to any of the pure colours it originated from....not the best example, but none the less.
Oh well Ad; you just cant help but upset some people; sometimes it's just unavoidable


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## liberty (Dec 5, 2007)

just on the topic of evolution and not wanting to change it, do u think that the changing weather patterns will affect the locals or purity of the snakes in question.
i only ask this as here in sydney we are starting to have the wether that was in qld about 5 years ago. so does this possibly mean that differing types of reptiles will be changing their typical or once thought to be locallities??

cheers


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## lector (Dec 5, 2007)

I wouldnt think that a whole buncha diamond pythons would migrate up from syd just cos its getting a little stormy. But stranger things have been known to happen.lol
One would assume that if whether patterns changed the animals would have to evolve to meet the new conditions etc etc and not just seek the sun by moving to queensland or wherever.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 6, 2007)

Indicus please state your questions again as i can not be bothered reading all of those replies again?
And its true that because you think i am wrong in my opinions, does not mean i'm wrong???
The reptile hobby is a evolving entity, because i grew up in a different country than you and have different views on life and how things are done does not make me wrong. Personal attack is the way of people that think they know everything and have an overinflated view of their own opinion. I know there are others that feel the same as me and are just trying to avoid conflict, well i love conflict!! So bring it on. There are thousands of enthusiatst worldwide that share my views and that pay top dollar for hybrids as their colour, pattern, temparent and behaviour are far superior to some of the natural occuring animals. These animals are hardier and dont have some of the husbandry rules associated with some of their locality specific counterparts. Its only in Australia that people think that this would be different, the holy grail of reptiles!!!!
And Pugsly, just by the way. The amount of animals that a person keeps does not reflect his ability to keep reptiles or what he knows!!! I know many keepers that keep no reptiles and are some of the top authorities on reptiles.


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## Frozenmouse (Dec 8, 2007)

i got it now, lol


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## B-Factor (Dec 8, 2007)

NickM said:


> I am hearing all of the same excuses I hear in the US from hybrid breeders.
> 
> For anyone who thinks it would be more "exiting" to have a herpmarket like the one we have, they should be carefull what they wish for.
> 
> ...


Nick, I heard you had done this but I didn't want to believe the source. Glad you saw the light.


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## bwana (Dec 9, 2007)

Hi All,
Tremain, I think you might as well bang your head against a brick wall.
These people are not herpetologists. 
They have no real understanding of the species they keep and they will sell to those people who know even less.
To them money is the only motivator, not love or passion for the animals they keep.
What's in it for the animals? What does the species have to gain? 
It is man's responsibility to care for the earth and all of it's inhabitants. We have lost so many species already.
It's our duty to conserve and protect what we have left.
Cheers


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## indicus (Dec 9, 2007)

MH - I'm quite sure; that you have; read the entire thread; so please forgive me when I presume your poor response, and failure in addressing any of the issues/questions raised by myself and others in this thread;
can only point out; that you have not even considered the consequences of your actions and others;
with regards to the breeding hybrids; and the problems; that may arise within the future.
Ok....you have informed us all of the financial gain in breeding hybrids; 'several' times in this thread; got that; point taken.
Why would you refer in terms such as; 'conflict?', and statements such as 'bring it on?'
Given the fact you were once the president of VHS; I would have expected better.....(what a joke)
Was I presumptuous?; in thinking you may be able to offer advice/solutions in how we as a industry/hobby; could better tackle the issue of managing the influx of hybrids filtering into the market place.....obviously not?. Ignorance; really is bliss; isn't it?.
One can only hope that those in positions to influence; are to be seen; to possess a balanced view; knowledge and skills required; to allow the industry/hobby; as whole; towards taking 'positive' steps with regards the future of reptile keeping within this country; and it's management.
Your defensive attitude, and failure to answer any of my questions; clearly illustrates your inability to be considered worthy enough; to hold any position of standing.
Keep in mind MH; my ability to keep reptiles is not in question; but your inability!!!; to offer any worthy input; other then pointing out your potential financial gain; 'repeatedly'.......is!!!
Are we to argue to and throw?; or can one be mature enough?; to discuss the subject; with the aim towards finding solutions to the problems; that we as a industry now face?....may be not hey?


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## Retic (Dec 9, 2007)

In answer to the original question, yes you would get albinos and yes you would get albino Jungleish and Coastalish snakes but obviously not pure.


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## Australis (Dec 9, 2007)

Im very much in agreeance with *Bwana*, and *Indicus*, .
*NickM*, and *B-Factors*, opinions from their experience 
with this issue in North America speaks volumes
about where we shouldnt want to end up.

So *Morelia_Hunter*, why do you avoid the issues 
raised in this thread?


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## ihaveherps (Dec 10, 2007)

What a caulker of a thread ! 

"because i grew up in a different country than you and have different views on life and how things are done does not make me wrong"

what a great arguement that statement raises.... those South Africans had heaps of brilliant ideas, that apartheid one was a cracker!

MH, your hybrid vigour arguement has no validity, as after F1 offspring are bred together, the whole hybrid vigour concept is thrown out the window.

In another thread you also stated that breeding hypo melanistics to albinos would be an interesting combination.... I can see the way that breeding a reduced melanin animal into a line of animals that is unable to produce melanin at all, as being a giant step forward in the future of the albino hybrid morphs.

All in all, the best thing the purists can do is to keep slugging out these sorts of threads in the forums... for every newbie that stumbles across a similar thread, has half a brain, comprehends the arguement ( would say arguements, but as shown in this thread there is only one side with any informed substance to back thier stance ) and chooses to avoid these mongrels, is a positive. Every single person counts when it comes to these sorts of matters, as without punters the value falls out of the mutt market, which from what i understand from the hybrid lovers point of view in here, is their only solid motivation.


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## BROWNS (Dec 10, 2007)

I've never really been against cross breeding carpets but am against proper hybrids such as crossing different species not sub species such as bredli with a coastal etc etc.Even though in many states all carpets are recognised as one species such as M.S.Variagata in Victoria but most of us still can clearly tell the difference between a Murray Darling and a jungle or those compared to a coastal etc etc,the problem i see coming in the future is when it gets like overseas with animals such as corn snakes that come in every colour of the rainbow and are now as cheap as chips!!!Most people entering the hobby as newbies who just want a pet snake will most certainly go for a $50 albino x evrything and anything over a pure childrens or coastal and in time these will become more and more rare to find in the wild in their natural habitat and the care for keeping species pure will be lost to those just wanting a pretty coloured snake.

Don't get me wrong i'm all for a stunning looking snake but when you start crossing albino Darwins with every sub species of carpet before people have even had a chance to get the time to breed pure albino darwins back to each other yet which is only just possible recently seeing as they have only been bred for very few years and we haven't even tried to find out what can come from breeding an albino Darwin to say a striped Darwin or a hypo darwin or a hyper darwin and any other oddball darwins around like theghost darwins and we've already seen the paradox form which came from the original line and other possibilities that could arise such as snows which can still happen and be pure if someone happens to produce an axanthic darwin i think it is more greed and money orientated than anything else crossing them with everything you can think of just to see what you get and they will become so numerous and the value of them will drop dramatically in a short time.The herp industry is expanding rapidly with huge numbers entering the hobby anew every day i think it's going to be a shame when they go into a pet shop in years to come and say i want that pretty yellow and red/orange spotted carpet snake not havin a clue what species it is nor caring what species it is.Why not go for the morphs but still keep it pure?Sure it's going to take a little longer but what's the big rush if money isn't the main motivator???As i've already said the potential to produce pure albino morphs is there and i'm sure being worked on by some as we speak but i would hate to go to buy an albino and not have a clue what species it is and if it is pure or crossed.I'm sure even if crossed with certain jungles many will still look like the pure form so i'm sure as is done with many other crosses there will always be dishonest people who misrepresent their animals which passes on down the line and therein lies the problem.I've always said if you are going to cross breed and sell the offspring they should be advertised as exactly what they are,such as the het alino jungle crosses which may have hybrid vigour but will their offspring which are the ones being bred for the albinos have hybrid vigour and be any brighter yellow than the original pure form.There's some pretty intense red and orange coloured Darwins out there as well as striped and hypos etc etc that will or should produce albinos with both stunning colours and patterns as there's already quite a lot of variety in the original pure albinos as we've seen including the paradox form.Who knows what that will produce when bred to a hyper or hypo etc etc.Wouldn't it be more challenging to try breeding morphs and keeping it pure rather than just throwing an albino over any old carpet which any 5 year old could do???It's not exactly rocket science breeding carpets but there would be more of a challenge as a herpetologist trying to breed albino morphs and keeping them pure working with what we already have????

Now getting to the nitty gritty of keeping it pure and talking about escapees.If we really really want to keep things pure not just in the hobby but more importantly in the wild shouldn't we all only keep species native to our area so that if there is an escapee the wild population has no chance of being tainted as i'm sure has already happened in some places.I don't think there'd be too many long term herpers who've not had an escapee never to be found again??I know i've had it happen and know of may others which could be more of a contributor to the purity of our wild stock than say cross breeding within the hobby and honestly representing these crosses selling them as exactly what they are??We wouldn't be able to keep much then would we?

I'd like to know or hear peoples thoughts on that as it's just as valid an arguement for keeping it pure in the wild where it counts most as it is to crossbreeding withinh the hobby!My guess is that hopefully nature would correct a mistake such as an escapee bredli in jungle territory breding and having viable offspring that only a few of will survive and eventually will return back to pure or would it?Same as keeping non Aussie greens that don't even originate from this country,what if someone keeping Indonesian greens who lives in Iron Range or Green Python country/habitat has an escapee and it breeds with our pure wild stock which could very easily happen as people successfully breed them together in captivity,why wouldn't they not breed in the wild and what sort of problems would that then cause???

So should we be allowed the priveledge of keeping non locality animals to the many varied localities we all live in?

As for crossing albinos i would love to see them kept pure for some time and eventually see what morphs can be bred from pure lines rather than simply crossing as it's not really a new morph,you're just putting an already existing morph across a regular animal of a different sub species which we all know the differences between wether there are dna markers to prove it yet or not and if it is eventually proved it's already too late then isn't it.I can't really see it as greed crossbreeding regular sub species as it's generally frowned upon and the animals sell very cheap but when you're talking albinos that's another story!!!


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 10, 2007)

Ihaveherps when you know something about my countries politics make a statement please. You aussies had the white law policy in Australia but this is not a political discussion so please. Indicus, you still take on my views on breeding subspecies of carpetpython to each other, just remember that this is unfortunately only a small part of what reptile keeping is about. You dont know me from a bar of soap and you are making a judgement call on my herpetological view points form a thread run on the internet???? And because your opinion is different you think you are going to bash me into taking your viewpoints, get real mate!!! I have never said that i will be indiscrimanate about what i will do with the offspring or that i would sell any to anbody under the pretences of what they are. I do not prey on newbies and carpet pythons are not the only things that i breed. I have been involved in the high end morph breeding of pythons for almost 15 years now. Even before albinos were available in Australia. I have seen it take off overseas and have worked in that market in more than one or 2 countires. This does not make me an expert but broaden my views on the whole thing. I have never just thrown animals together to breed as you so clearly think i do!!!!! You would be a fool to think that. Everything has always been in a highly controlled environment. I know the hassle in selling animals to people that are out of their depth, i dont sell sick animals, and i screen people when they buy animals from me. I make sure they acquire the right books and information on the species involved even before their purchase it. And by the way, i have not sold one hybrid to anyone ever. So judge me now. I have not made one cent out of breeding hybrids!!! Maybe in 3 years from now, but until then none of them will leave my snake room.


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## indicus (Dec 10, 2007)

Still MH; you will not comment on how we avoid contaminating pure lines with these crosses 
in the near future...(if not already)
I'm sure all those newbie's; who purchase your hybrids/crosses; will remember what exactly they have; when the novelty of owning a pretty snake (not that all of them will be) when they in turn sell them on?
So i now conclude; you have not put any thought in regards your 'FUTURE' actions; which sorry mate; shows a blatant disregard for the unique Morelia we already have to work with; as far as I'm concerned.
Can you now put your selfish motivations aside for a minute; and please think about it; for one minute; before shooting your mouth off. 
H ....OWWWW.....CAAAANN....WEEEE....CONNNTROLLL .....THHHEEE......PROBLLLEMMMMSSS; ......THAAAT MAAAY....ARRRISEE.......FROOOMMMM.....BREEEEDING.....THESSSE........HYYYBRRRIDS...?????
Sorry for the sarcasm (slow enough for you?); It is apparent by your posts; you have nothing to offer....as far as controlling these mongrels you wish to, aim to; have bred.
This thread alone; high-lights to those in the department; that we now have real problems within the industry; with the introduction of these animals.
I can only hope; pressure is put upon them to control the spread of these snakes; by yourself and others!!!
I wish you all the best; hopefully you will 'at least' put some thought into it.


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2007)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> And by the way, i have not sold one hybrid to anyone ever. So judge me now. I have not made one cent out of breeding hybrids!!! *Maybe in 3 years from now, but until then none of them will leave my snake room*.



Until three years? 
I thought they were going to be available this season by this PM from 14th August 2007 that says:

private message: Aug-07


Colin said:


> I would be interested in seeing some pics of the albino jungles and interested how much they are being sold for. Thanks


private message reply 14-Aug-07, 12:11 PM :


Morelia_Hunter said:


> They are selling for $6000 a pair. Which i think is reasonable for something that there are very few of. Thanks for the interest by the way. Regards MH



So will these hybrids be sold this season for $6,000 a pair or not ? 

Not that I'm interested in buying these hybrids. I'm just curious  thanks


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## lector (Dec 10, 2007)

You must admit at 6 grand a pair there is a fair incentive for people out there to just buy one and cross it back over a darwin.That must be how hes controling the problems that arise from breeding hybrids.
After a few years just assume that they r all hybrids and that way only big breeders who are trusted will sell them at going prices


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## NickM (Dec 10, 2007)

MH, I dont think anyone here is trying to change your mind.

In a free country you have the right to disagree with people. Just as you had the right to post about you hybrid carpets, other have th right to disagree with you publicly. You must take the positive with the negative.

This is an arguement that you cant win, the simple fact is that the animals you created WILL cause problems in the future, this is not an opinion its a well proven fact.

If you know that what you are doing will cuase problems for others in the future, how can you defend doing it.

This is an ethical issue what you are ultimatley saying is that you DONT CARE if your animals cause problems in the future.

I am in the US and have to deal with the results of this kind of thinking everyday.

Nick


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## zulu (Dec 10, 2007)

Browns :ve never really been against cross breeding carpets but am against proper hybrids such as crossing different species not sub species such as bredli with a coastal etc etc.Even though in many states all carpets are recognised as one species such as M.S.Variagata in Victoria but most of us still can clearly tell the difference between a Murray Darling and a jungle or those compared to a coastal etc
Its all about the finer things mate,a diamond compared to a carpet or jungle genetically might be hardly detectable genetically but thats the whole point,it makes them highly adaptable in nature because they can change quickly and easy to cross breed in captivity.I was on a popular morelia site the other day and had a look at what coastal carpet stock a prominent US seller had and there was onley a few that were anything like coastals,most looked like jungles or darwins,its not someting we need here.The argument that comes forward from overseas is the that they got them off a breeder that said they were such and such and that same excuse gets thrown about here lately,each type of morelia has the features to which it was described.


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2007)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Its funny how all the keepers with albinos say that making hybrids are for monetary benefit when clearly they are of a lesser quality than pure forms. So how will they be making money???





> So how will they be making money???



From a (hybrid albino jungle) x (hybrid het albino)
and clutch size of (lets say) 16
assuming 8 are hybrid albinos and 8 hybrid hets
8 x $3000 each = $24,000 
8 x $1500 each = $12,000 $36,000

and / or

From a (hybrid albino jungle) x (hybrid albino jungle)
and clutch size of (lets say) 16
16 $3000 each = $48,000

I suppose...


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## Morelia_Hunter (Dec 10, 2007)

By making sure that they are not sold to newbies as i do not deal with newbies. I have ever only sold animals to individuals who i feel are capable of maintaining the animals correctly. And this is a fact. 
I'll just add this bit of a PM that Colin sent me this year to just show what a hypocrit he really is seeing that this thread is turning into an attack on peoples opinions and stand points. 

any chance of some pics please? I'd be interested to see what they look like. I may be interested early next year, but really need to see what they come out like. my email is [email protected] 
thanks
Colin

My views have always been the same regardless of what species is in question, I have never sold Iguanas, Burmese pythons or reticulated pythons to anyone new to the hobby. Just to use examples. Indicus- My feelings toward your unique wildlife fauna is not much different to yours. The only view that is different is that i believe fully that animals bred by private keepers in their house shed or snake room will never see the wild again. To let people think they will be is misleading. A person of your knowledge and experience should know that!!! You keep attacking my views and opinions to achieve what??? You try to belittle me on public forum to achieve what???? But just to make you look like the clown that you are. Clearly you know the exact origin of each of your animals and this must mean that you have quite a bit to lose if i start producing animals that looks better and is more hardier than yours. I have nothing to offer to this pathetic attack on my opinions and view points, you are correct!!!!


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm afraid my version of my PM does not read exactly the same as yours MH. :lol: But no matter.

The only reason I ever contacted you in the first place was to see if you had these hybrids and how much they were being sold for. The people that know me, know I'm not interested in any hybrids at all, so there was never any intent on my part to buy anything from you whatsoever. 

I only contacted you to find out if you were breeding these albino hybrids and how much they were being sold for. thats all. 

And I'm not really interested in buying any animals from you even if it was of 'pure' bloodline thanks all the same.

As for being hypocritical, I think the noose has already tightened but it's not around my neck :lol:

all the best


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## indicus (Dec 10, 2007)

NickM said:


> MH, I dont think anyone here is trying to change your mind.
> 
> In a free country you have the right to disagree with people. Just as you had the right to post about you hybrid carpets, other have th right to disagree with you publicly. You must take the positive with the negative.
> 
> ...



Very well said Nick; your posts; and others; have given those that dont comprehend or fully understand; a first-hand insight into the problems; seen in the U.S reptile industry; and have simply sum'ed up my thoughts exactly.

At fear of repeating myself.....

MH....You started of quite well; that's a start; you wont sell to those new to the hobby.
How exactly will you know that they are not new to the industry or not?;
Will this also make the difference; in regards to the hybridizing of locality form animals?
I'm glad we may at least; on some level; share similar views regarding the unique fauna to be found here.....
You must know then; why this is an issue; that has to be addressed; better sooner then later.
To simply allow those to breed and trade in hybrids; will cause mis-representation; and the eventual
crossing of all forms of Morelia....soon; determining traits expressed by locality forms will be impossible.
At present; it's already hard enough; and in a lot of cases; could be considered impossible.
Most of the commonly seen lines in this country; do express traits seen in the wild;
not to mention that the locality data on some of these lines; can be traced to founder populations.

Lets hope you are right; in the fact; it may be a long time before Morelia are seen to be released into the wild.
Hopefully due to this countries diverse habitat; habitat often which is fragmented;
may allow there always to be isolated populations of locality form Morelia to exist;
un-touched by the influences of man.
I do however; not cherish the thought of seeing a obvious hybrid/ thing; in someone's yard....
will I be able to tell?; as you yourself have expressed; in most cases; probably not. 
As your so sure; the release of Morelia may never happen in any degree;
the relevance however; should be; may the need arise; we can have/or obtain; suitable founder stock.

Given the fact that you have seen the problems that does exist overseas; regarding hybrids;
I would have imagined that; you would have discussed this issue with others?
It's not a matter of 'attacking you' or 'be-littleing you'; rather; questioning you.
I'm also sure; you would have put some 'for-thought' into ways we could control/manage the breeding of hybrids?;
Can you at all; offer any solutions which can be discussed?....or can I safely assume; that I'm wasting my time?

Since you question my 'lines'; yes I do have; in most cases;
fairly good locality data; on most of my original animals .....what do you wish to know?
I'll be more then happy to help you where I can.

MH; This is NOT a competition; and I'm happy if you produce something your happy with; good for you mate.
I do however differ in the view; of breeding hybrids....surely you can at least see why; myself and others are concerned.
Yes I can be considered a clown at times; not good at it I see; as you don't seem to be laughing.....I apologise.
Don't spit the dummy MH; it's all good.....
You would do better not to 'be-little' yourself; by means of your own conduct; and 'lack of'; sound reasoning....
To show you do care; about our locality Morelia; It would be most beneficial; if you could or would; discuss ways;
in which you may have thought; to control the keeping/ breeding of hybrids in Australia.
Other then hybrid animals being hardier; as you elude to; what other reasons is it of a benefit to create hybrids?
Will this impact on wild populations?; what benefit is it to wild stocks? ....so many questions; so little answers.
Can you point out any discussion; on other sites; that may help one form an opinion? 
If you wish to not answer any of these 'relevant' questions.... I'll understand;
as there doesn't seem to any easy solution in the foreseeable future.....does there. 
All the best


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