# Movement of our herps... opinions please



## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

Hi ladies and germs..... before i get started *can we plase not turn this into a handling/not handling debate* which always seems to end up turning stupid and offensive....

Last night a i attended my first NQ Herp Society meeting where a member from QPWS attending as a guest speaker in regards to movement of our herps. I compliment him for coming straight into the firing line.

Basically most of us are aware that we are not allowed to take them anywhere but the vets. 

Now in my eyes this is ridiculous.

Ponder this for a moment..... we can take any dog say a pit bull (im not saying they are always nasty im just using this as an example) anywhere we like, public places, friends house etc. Now i would take a bite from my 3m male olive over a dog bite anyday (had both not fun:shock: ).

I can speak for at least 90% of the herp keepers when i say that we responsible and would not take our mental case spawn of satan jungles over to our friends house or to a herp meeting where other ppl, snakes nd kids will be. 

The defence the QPSW memeber expressed was that yes its only 90% that would do that...... now come off it how many times, especially in those dog off leash exercise areas do u get idiots that let thier dog loose that obviously isnt socialised (or very much a hornbag if u catch me).... so again it would be 10% of dog owners that are knobs am I correct?

So why aren't we allowed to take our herps anywhere? Is this because of the public persona of reptiles? so wouldnt it be smarter if these awesome animals were displayed (for lack of a better word) more so the public could be educated and hopefully resulting in them being more accepted???? I'd have to say I have turned more people into at least accepting them and not hitting them with a shovel now than having anyone run scared.

I dont expect there to be reptile off leash areas :lol: ... i'm not expecting that we can take them down the beach (perhaps set times that we can....which they do with dogs back in NSW) ......just a little more freedom....

Perhaps like an applied and approved month or 3 month movement advice eg 1 morelia bredli will be taken to xxxxx (place of herp meeting) X amount of times and xxxxx (mums house etc) X amount of times during this period. Yes it would be hard to govern I understand but there must be something we could do.

The other thing he pointed out is what if our herps got loose.... again someones kelpie gets out and mauls a kid eat snative wildlife etc.... someones python gets out and probably sleeps in a shed for a few months....

And yes I understand that the effect that a MD getting out in nth qld could cause some probs on a natural breeding point but whats the damage of a cat or a dog to the native environment???

So what are everyones thoughts on this and is there anyway we can approach someone in regards to this????

Thanks guys!!!


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

by the way mods if i have breached something by putting stuff in about the QPWS member i apologise.... plz remove or ask me to remove the bad bits.... thanks


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## shelby (Apr 12, 2007)

interesting!! i argee with every thing you have said, not sure where to start or whom to contact ( EPA???), i have a sneaking suspision a lot of people just take them where ever they want any way, ( not pointing fingres at any one)


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## militant_vixen (Apr 12, 2007)

I was actually not aware that we couldn't move our snakes around asides from the vets. I am in NSW and a mate of mine move our snakes in between each others house for babysitting and sometimes work to show them off.

In how many states is this law??


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

thanks shelby.... i take my herps down the beach and to my friends places, into work sometimes (one of the mechanics swapped me a ride in his corvette for a pat of my bredli lol), my mum gets the poos if i dont bring someone over when i come over for dinner every week  ....

I was just hoping there was some legal way we could put forward cos the last thing we want is to have our herps taken off us for doing something we think is reasonable....

keep em coming....


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

apparently all of them.... NSW has TC on thier books (temporary care) but i was informed it was in all states.....


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## olivehydra (Apr 12, 2007)

quarantine is a good reason not to move your herps


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## shelby (Apr 12, 2007)

yeah its on my books to (TC) (QLD) that was a sweet trade!!!! will ring my epa and ask, not sure what the answer will be, they can only say no


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## Inkslinger (Apr 12, 2007)

You can also transport for selling and shipping and thats it in effect we do not really OWN our herps but are granted limited ownership under the licence agreement by the powers that be.

The exception are display commercial liceneces, also was anyone in vic aware of the infrigment point system? and do they know how many infringement points we have to loose before the licence is revoked or how many we begin with?


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## cris (Apr 12, 2007)

I think its a great law and should be kept in place.(i never thought i would ever say something like that)


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## militant_vixen (Apr 12, 2007)

Hm in that case then, I'd better stop moving my snake. Would hate to see what fine or what they would hit you with.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

olivehydra said:


> quarantine is a good reason not to move your herps


 i do understand that and it is a good point, i do quarantine my herps when they come in and i always wash my hands between herps etc... but if we want to risk it shouldnt it be our choice...and they dont quartine in the wild..... just a thought im not having a go...


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

cris said:


> I think its a great law and should be kept in place.(i never thought i would ever say something like that)


 
can i ask why you think its a good idea??? again not having a go i just wanted ot know your thoughts....


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## cris (Apr 12, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> i do understand that and it is a good point, i do quarantine my herps when they come in and i always wash my hands between herps etc... but if we want to risk it shouldnt it be our choice...and they dont quartine in the wild..... just a thought im not having a go...



Why should it be your choice to risk our wild snakes?


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## cris (Apr 12, 2007)

basically taking captive snakes around everwhere will also take captive diseases(suych as OPMV) around everywhere too. 
There is also no need to be doing it to start with, wanting to is differant to needing to.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

the same could be said about all other pets, dogs, cats, birds etc.... wouldnt they be doing more damage than a rogue (is that how u spell it:? ) carpet...???


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## shelby (Apr 12, 2007)

its am interesting debat, i really can see both sides of the story, i know i'd love to be able to take my babies lots of places, but its a really good point you make cris


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

it is a valid point although i do disagree..... could the same be said about the spread of OPMV as humans and STI's.... so with that reasoning wouldnt you be saying on a human scale that we shouldnt be having "relations".... lol at the word relations not u cris hehe..... if keepers are prepared to take that risk then i dont see the problem its all up to personal choice *JMO*.... i dont want this to turn into a cat fight i want to keep it civil cos so many threads turn into digested rat poo in here....


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## Twiggz (Apr 12, 2007)

I dont think a movement advice such as that you have suggested is the way to go at all. IMO it seems to be a pointless exercise for such trivial purposes- when you way up the paper work that would be involved, i certainly wouldn't find it worth it.

I guess the two biggest issues regarding this issue would be quarantine (as i see people are now discussing further), but what about security. Everyone knows the risks involved with quarantine/diseases, but with security, try having a look at what costs are involved with the herps you keep. 

Most peoples snakes for one would be worth alot more than the common dog you see out for a walk. Do you really want strangers taking an added interest and closer look at what herps your out and about with???

To me its just asking for trouble.....heck people are already getting their homes raided because of what they own. Whos to say someones not going to follow you home after seeing what you've just taken out for the day??? It probably occurs already........but to change the laws that are in place now, it would only increase the risk of criminal behaviour and thefts of our precious herps.

With the sole exception being that i think herps should be free to move to and from herp meetings and society functions (given appropriate quarantine measures are in place) then i'm afraid my view is pretty much in line with cris, that the ruling should be left as is- in place and alone.

JMO


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## Chrisreptile (Apr 12, 2007)

shelby said:


> its am interesting debat, i really can see both sides of the story, i know i'd love to be able to take my babies lots of places, but its a really good point you make cris



same, i can also see both sides of the story.
and they both make really valid points.

there is the quarantine part of it, then there is also the herp meetings/education part of it.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

thanks for that twiggz.... but again we're missing the point that if YOU want to take YOUR snakes out in public or to someone house etc then it is YOUR risk and YOUR responsibilty for security measure, quarantine etc....

and yeah the paper work would be annoying but thats all i could think of so that it is recorded in a way....


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## olivehydra (Apr 12, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> it is a valid point although i do disagree..... could the same be said about the spread of OPMV as humans and STI's.... so with that reasoning wouldnt you be saying on a human scale that we shouldnt be having "relations".... lol at the word relations not u cris hehe..... if keepers are prepared to take that risk then i dont see the problem its all up to personal choice *JMO*.... i dont want this to turn into a cat fight i want to keep it civil cos so many threads turn into digested rat poo in here....



The problem is that you are making the choice for others and wild herps. Say for example you are carrying a snake with OPMV and I run into you at the corner shop, you have effectively exposed me to a virus without my consent. Or perhaps your snake gets loose and infects a wild snake???? Sounds a little extreme, but once you have experienced OPMV, you tend to look at things with a little more caution.


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## Aslan (Apr 12, 2007)

To my knowledge there is no law preventing taking your reptiles to meetings...

*Swingonthespiral* - In regards to it being 'YOUR choice' I really don't think it SHOULD be. For instance, we are all well aware of the diseases that are blooming in captive collections - you may choose to take your snake out - what happens when that snake escapes? It MIGHT be carrying OPMV (etc) in which case it MIGHT infect a local population of snakes...potentially threatening ALL native snakes....

Surely you agree that that decision should not be left up to the individual...

You also state that "There is no quarantine in the wild" - and you're correct. That is WHY any new animals MUST be quarantined by humans. As is evidenced there are diseases in captive collections which have not surfaced in the wild, quarantine practices and strict rules regarding movement are the reason these diseases have remained out of wild specimens so far...It is collections held by humans which have spread these diseases and only fair that we remain responsible for the control of them...

Simon


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## Hawk (Apr 12, 2007)

I have been having this problem as well. I have been trying to organise the showing of reptiles at or next meeting here in Rockhampton. We are in the process of developing strict quarantine procedures and guidelines for handling and transporting reptiles to and from the meeting. I was assured by the QPWS if we were to send them this information they would consider allowing us to show selected reptiles that are classified under the recreational licence, for educational purposes. Although the QPWS have not said they will allow us to show our reptiles they have atleast agreed to discuss the possibility of it, which is a good step forward.

I would also like to point out that only animals from one collection at a time would be permitted to be shown as to decrease the chance of decease. Handling would also be kept to a minimum.


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## Aslan (Apr 12, 2007)

*Hawke *- PM Peter Johnson - he had a quarantine procedure developed by a number of reptile Vets for the Mac Herps show a few months ago. I am sure he would be glad to share them.

They may also be listed on www.macherps.com but I am not sure...


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## Hawk (Apr 12, 2007)

Thanks Aslan. any help would be great.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

Maybe they could let us elect other places that we can take our snakes whenever we want (eg without paperwork every time) for example if I want to take my snakes to my boyfriend's house or as swingonthespiral said "my mum gets the poos if i dont bring someone over when i come over for dinner every week " So maybe we could have 2 or 3 specific addresses that we could transport our snakes to and from. Maybe as a small extra fee for this addition (say an extra $5 per address) and specify which of your reptiles were allowed to be transported.

Even if they have a "movement advice" type of form that you carry with the reptiles.

I don't take my snakes out much but I have once or twice to "show off" to my friends. More importantly though, I go there to teach them about snakes and show them how great they are. I love turning people into snake-lovers, or at least give them a new appreciation for reptiles (can't win 'em all hehehe). My point is I don't think it should be necessary to get an exhibitors licence just to show my friends (and sometimes their friends) and it isn't always convenient for my family to have my friends to come over to my house to see my reptiles.

As for quarantine my friends don't have snakes, and when I move them I make sure they are very secure (I don't want to lose my babies!) so theres no contamination to the wild or to mine. I always make sure people who are going to handle my snakes have at least washed their hands, and also with hand-cleaner if I have it at the time.

My friends wouldn't steal my snakes and their friends don't know where I live.

-Penny


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## nuthn2do (Apr 12, 2007)

I think it would be hard on the animals, they are not like dogs and cats etc in the fact they are not sociable and most really don't like being held and carted around.


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## junglecarpet (Apr 12, 2007)

I dont know if this has been said, but I think there would also be alot of difference between taking a hatchling/yearling python out compared to a full grown python...


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## Aslan (Apr 12, 2007)

*Penny* - Of course noone _WANTS_ to lose their snakes, but every week we have a number of people distraught with a thread about how one of their snakes got out. No doubt we all have the best intentions but the risk of contamination because you want to "show off" to your friends (as you put it) can hardly be justified...


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## olivehydra (Apr 12, 2007)

I know it is an easy term to use, but you may also want to consider the terms of "ownership". I may be wrong, but I think it is actually false to claim the reptiles that reside in your house as "yours". When Australia took on the common law of England, ownership of all native animals went to the Crown. Yes some states (I think S.A.) use the wording "under guardianship of the Crown". So although you have a licence to keep reptiles, you may not in fact own them.
If you lost your drivers licence, you still own your car (if it hasnt been impounded). If you lose your fauna keepers licence you also lose your animals. So perhaps if they are not your animals, then your opinion becomes moot


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

if I don't have ownership of _my_ reptiles, they why does it cost so darn much to get them??


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## olivehydra (Apr 12, 2007)

croc_hunter_penny said:


> if I don't have ownership of _my_ reptiles, they why does it cost so darn much to get them??




so as to keep the Queen in the manner to which she is accustomed, poor old duck


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

besides, if you lose your fauna keepers licence, you aren't allowed to keep your animals anymore so they have to find somewhere else for them to go. They aren't "rightfully reclaiming true ownership" or anything like that.


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## Olive Xm (Apr 12, 2007)

Are these laws the same in victoria?


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## olivehydra (Apr 12, 2007)

Olive Xm said:


> Are these laws the same in victoria?



Yeah I think so. I'm no expert on wildlife law, but in regard to native title (which is similar), I do know that the only change occured as a result of the law reform commission looking at indigenous rites to hunting. Still no reconciliation on ownership though, so that is why I assume that we therefore dont "own" our herps. I kind of like the idea of only being a "caretaker"


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

olivehydra said:


> I kind of like the idea of only being a "caretaker"



doesn't that mean they should be paying _us_ to look after them? :lol:


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## Hoppa1874 (Apr 12, 2007)

well this is very interesting .. and i'd also like to commend everyone for keeping their cool and actually having a decent debate..very civilized ppl!!!
I can see both sides to this story too, and i'm not sure how many ppl read the other thread where i said i had taken my snake to the kids classes to show their class and give a talk about snakes.. cos we live in the bush, these kids see a lot of snakes around and most of their parents run them over, so quite a few kids tell me.. i know realise that this is against the law and havent done so since, but i thought it was a good thing to do to educate these kids.. i didnt let them handle my snake altho if they washed their hands i said they cood touch it so they found out it was wet or slimy..anyway.. my point is i would like to be able to do this, take them to places for education occasionally wifout having to go to the expense of having a exhibitors permit cos it woodnt be a regular thing.. and the places like to the kids school is only 5 k's from my home so not to stressful on the snakes and no others ppl's snakes are there and the snake only came out in the classroom for about 15 minutes, so i cant see it infecting any wild populations or anything, note they were also driven there in the security of a click clack, so they coodnt escape..and it really was the best thing for the kids..they enjoyed it and were educated, they all washed their hands again after touching my snake too so i see nothing really wrong wif it.. i do agree wif the whole quarantine isssue thing too cris. its a hard one.. both sides are very relevant..JMHO


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

i agree, both sides are relevant


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

nuthn2do said:


> I think it would be hard on the animals, they are not like dogs and cats etc in the fact they are not sociable and most really don't like being held and carted around.


 
i did politely ask for this not to turn into one of those debates so this comment on this thread is irrelevant (so cant spell today) and congrats to everyone that has kept this civil woohoo!!! lol

*Aslan* i understand what ur saying but again wouldnt it be ur choice to come in contact with that person.... i dont really know how OPMV works so if u could enlighten me on how it is transmitted perhaps that could come into factor with my opinion...

How many dieases do we all carry everyday that could potentially effect the native population??? and would an outbreak of OPMV have as much effect on the natives than say a feral cat..... as i said i dont know much about OPMV i am genuinely asking a question...

thanks


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## Hickson (Apr 12, 2007)

In NSW you are allowed to take your reptile to a Herp Society meeting.

Now, something that hasn't been considered: you want the law changed so you can take your snake or lizard to the beach, or friends, or work etc. Your snake won't bite, it's not stressed, and you think you're doing a service by introducing people to the wonderful world of reptiles.

But what about the idiot with venomous species? Or with the scrubby which can be a little snappy, but is usually OK when out of the cage?

Just because you and your friends will do the right thing doesn't mean everyone else will too. And lets face it - we all know some idiots who have herps.



Hix


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## nuthn2do (Apr 12, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> i did politely ask for this not to turn into one of those debates so this comment on this thread is irrelevant (so cant spell today) and congrats to everyone that has kept this civil woohoo!!! lol
> 
> *Aslan* i understand what ur saying but again wouldnt it be ur choice to come in contact with that person.... i dont really know how OPMV works so if u could enlighten me on how it is transmitted perhaps that could come into factor with my opinion...
> 
> ...


How is it irrelevant and not civil?


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

hix i did mention that one my original post..... but yes it is a point.... but hopefully if theyre idiots the scrubby will eat them or the venomous ones will bite the idiot keepers lol


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

i didnt say that u werent being civil i was putting that in as a generalisation for everyone in the thread being so good...

and its was irrelevant because i did ask for it not to turn into a debate about handling etc so it is irrelevant in THIS THREAD!!!

cheers


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## AnteUp (Apr 12, 2007)

Also what about people that* have* to move their herps? Not for showing off or taking out on day trips. Say hypothetically someone had to move away for uni, the herps can't stay there for the holidays as they wouldn't be cared for during that period, in the way of cleaning, food and water. So I think there should be a way to have split residences (?) on the licence.


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## Hoppa1874 (Apr 12, 2007)

yep thats another very relevant point anteup.. good one..


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

yeah definately.... i think that both anteup and croc penny have it right with other approved addresses etc....


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## olivehydra (Apr 12, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> i did politely ask for this not to turn into one of those debates so this comment on this thread is irrelevant (so cant spell today) and congrats to everyone that has kept this civil woohoo!!! lol
> 
> *Aslan* i understand what ur saying but again wouldnt it be ur choice to come in contact with that person.... i dont really know how OPMV works so if u could enlighten me on how it is transmitted perhaps that could come into factor with my opinion...
> 
> ...



Problem with OPMV is that noone really knows how it is spread. Considering it can decimate private collections, I would say that an outbreak within wild snakes could make a feral cat seem, dare I say, innocuous in comparison.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

If it was an add-on for your licence, then perhaps restricted animals (venomous) aren't allowed. There could also be a size restriction, for example the python must be under 3 metres in length. Also have something in there saying that you are liable for your animal, so that if someone is stupid enough to bring an animal that they know isn't safe (or that they don't know, but I am not sure how that would work :lol then if the reptile does attack someone, the licence-holder is liable and can be sued, etc.

And, like I said in a previous post, they could make it so that you can register an address for the animal to be transported to. I don't know about trips to the beach, but taking it to your mothers house or a particular mates place could be registered. and then you can register whatever animals to that address.

something like this:

Address 1:  17 Blah st, Brisbane 4000 

Registered Species: 
Amt | Common or scientific name | Length
x 2 | Bredli Python . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | 500mm 
x 1 | Diamond Python . . . . . . . . . . . | 900mm
x 1 | Water Python . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | 1.2m
x 3 | Central Netted Dragon . . . . . .| 110mm SVL

____________________

Address 2:  42 Soandso ct, Brisbane 4010 

Registered Species: 
Amt | Common or scientific name | Length
x 2 | Bredli Python . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | 500mm 
x 1 | Diamond Python . . . . . . . . . . . | 900mm
x 1 | Water Python . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | 1.2m
x 1 | Coastal Carpet Python . . . . . .| 2.5m


or something similar to that. I imagine you would also have a copy of it to carry with the animals in case you get pulled over.


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## Mangles (Apr 12, 2007)

About a year ago the Qld Herp Society advised all of their members not to bring their animals to meetings unless they are selling the animals or if there was a specific issue they wanted advice on (such as having the snake probed, non-eating etc.). This was under advice from QPWS. 

There were two reasons for this, firstly for health issues as previously discussed and secondly Public Liability issues. At a meeting last year a large Coastal bit a young boy of around 12 on the face, which obviously hurt and there was a lot of blood. Fortunately it was his fathers snake, and all the people around had the snake stressed and the boy stuck his head too close to the snake and wham. 

Imagine the uproar if you had your snake out, especially a large one, in a public place showing it off and it bit somebody badly. I know dogs can do more damage but I can imagine the headlines in the paper. You would probably lose the snake if they complained. maybe your whole collection. Is this worth it?

It doesn't matter how much you trust your snake, if they are stressed they can strike out and bite, and an easy way to stress them is to take them out in public with people around.

I like showing my snakes off as much as anyone else, but only at my house, and whilst I trust my snakes I still make it clear they are wild animals and I cannot give a 100% guarantee they will not strike.

I can see both sides to the argument, but I believe leave the laws as they stand.


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## gillsy (Apr 12, 2007)

There was recenlty someone on this website that was taking their 2m coastal the their childs school with permission from the school until the mention that it was illegal.

Imagine if it bit a child, we know its not going to do anything but there are some real funny people out there would then sue the school for allowing it, sue the parent for letting it bite their prescious little son/daughter and then you'd loose every animal you had.

People pay large amounts for exhibitors permits to do exactly what you want, inform the public who's to say we are to take their living away. 

I have taken two snakes off premises before to get photos, but they were not around people and no one knew i had them there. Its your risk but I believe taking them around to 'show off' isn't the best reason for wanting to move the animal.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

Perhaps you would need a letter of agreement from the property owner, so that you couldn't register public places or addresses. 

Also, because I forgot to say it earlier, there should be something in the agreement saying that the licence-holder has to be with the reptiles at all times (so that you can't dump them off at a mates place who doesn't have a licence) unless the registered address also has a licence-holder. 
Say I want to leave my snakes at my boyfriend's house for the weekend, but I have to work on Saturday. I couldn't take my snakes to work (unless I registered there too :lol and Dean has a licence so they can stay with him.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

I don't know about taking it to schools or public places.. I suppose that would be the point of an exhibitors licence, and yes it probably would be taking away from their business.

I don't know if you were referring to my posts, but I am more talking about the convenience of being able to move them to one or two personal addresses (eg. my partner's and a close friend's house) for "private viewing" and not in a public place where unknown random people could potentially be injured and sue the licence-holder. Also talking about registering individual animals per address and have regulations on the size of animals and whether or not they are classified as "restricted".


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

I don't think anyone in here would be 'showing off' i think perhaps it was a wrong term used.... I dont "show off" with my snakes.... people are genuinely interested.... like when im heading to mums house and some kids walk past with thier parents and ask if they can have a look.

And yes i know that some people arent like that and you're gonna get ppl walkin around the main street just to get attention....

As for the public liability yes dogs would do more damage.... so thats why i stated before that if they were more "visable" within the public eye with adequate education perhaps the stigma attached to snakes would be changed.... 

We could only hope....


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

yeah sorry about that folks, I just couldn't think of a better term at the time. For the record I do NOT "show off" my snakes but my friends request that I come around (or that they can come here) so that they can see them because they are interested, and I like teaching them all about reptiles.

Let's not say "show off" any more :lol:


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## geckodan (Apr 12, 2007)

The basic issue in Qld is that the "right" to move around and "display" and animal warrants an exhibitors licence not a recreational licence. Public display is specifically prohibited under the legislation of the recreational to stop cowboys wandering the shopping centres with 6ft pseudogenitalia wrapped around their necks i.e. the % of the herper world that has a reptile for ego accentuation and nothing else.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 12, 2007)

but what about the right to move it around to regular private places? eg uni to home, or partners place to parents place. Surely theres something that can be done about that?


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

forgot to mention croc penny that ur a smart cookie  .... so is there anyway we can contact someone in regards to putting in a complain/suggestion.... ecoaccess are totally knobski's so i wouldnt even bother there.....

anyone know???


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## Greebo (Apr 12, 2007)

Treating a python like a fashion accessory is wrong on so many levels. People in our hobby tend to forget that we are in the minority. The majority of the unwashed masses do not like snakes. They will look at them behind glass or on the television and that's fine. But the majority will freak out when they come face to face with a live snake. Taking a python down to the beach is not going to change these peoples attitude.This kind of irresponsible behaviour will only continue to give our hobby a bad name.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

greebo im not takin my snakes down to "the strand" (main beach in townsville here... well if u could call it a beach).... im talkin out cape pallarenda where u are lucky to see another person 500m away and its usually a half blind fisherman anyway and its for a bit of sun (i have dogs so its easier for me to go accross the road then dodge doggies land mines in my back yard) and its never for more than about 10mins or so.... so to me thats being responsible and NOBODY ever referred to them as being fashion accesories and i do take offence to that...

And i have to disagree with you can prove that i have changed most people i have come into contact withs views on snakes just by holding a hatchie....


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## pugsly (Apr 12, 2007)

Well said Mangles.

Greebo you posted! Couldn't agree more as well, I am happy to show family and close friends, but even trying to persuade them that they aren't what they are made out to be is hard enough, imagine hundreds of onlookers coming up crowding around to look at you and stickybeak. 

That would absolutely stress the animal out.. as stated it can be the most placid thing you can imagine, but only takes a split second and its latched onto a childs face.

Leave them the way they are..


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## pugsly (Apr 12, 2007)

Its not about taking them to somewhere that there are limited people around. The law is never going to state, "Only to places where there are limited or no people" they will always get abused.

Basically, if you wanna take it for a walk go for it. Your not going to get caught anyway (well HIGHLY unlikely, so keep doing what your doing because the laws wont change.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

and i dont think i would be giving our hobbie a bad name by educating ppl that these arent creatures that need to be hit by a shovel and can be awesome pets with alot of research....


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## pugsly (Apr 12, 2007)

Thats all well and good mate, and I agree, but in 'practice' it doesnt work by the public seeing a bloke walking around with his Coastal or whatever. 

Imagine all the idiots who keep reptiles in horrible conditions and dont know how to look after them getting a license to take them for a walk! Then giving ADVICE to people, lets not even think about the escapes!


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## Greebo (Apr 12, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> greebo im not takin my snakes down to "the strand" (main beach in townsville here... well if u could call it a beach).... im talkin out cape pallarenda where u are lucky to see another person 500m away and its usually a half blind fisherman anyway and its for a bit of sun (i have dogs so its easier for me to go accross the road then dodge doggies land mines in my back yard) and its never for more than about 10mins or so.... so to me thats being responsible and NOBODY ever referred to them as being fashion accesories and i do take offence to that...
> 
> And i have to disagree with you can prove that i have changed most people i have come into contact withs views on snakes just by holding a hatchie....




You asked for opinions. Perhaps you were actually seeking validation instead.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

no i am after opinions.... i just took offence to your tone.... well the tone i was imagining in my head..... it sounded very accusational (i dont actually know if that is a word but ill put it out there anyway lol)


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 12, 2007)

and this is how threads turn to poop....


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## sengir (Apr 12, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> thanks for that twiggz.... but again we're missing the point that if YOU want to take YOUR snakes out in public or to someone house etc then it is YOUR risk and YOUR responsibilty for security measure, quarantine etc....
> 
> and yeah the paper work would be annoying but thats all i could think of so that it is recorded in a way....


 

But still with cris point of transferring the disease to native wildlife. Who are YOU to make YOUR decision to INFECT our native wildlife that doesn't really affect you after done but affects everyone and the future generations to come.

Cheers


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## dymback (Apr 12, 2007)

can i ask why you wont to take your ie snakes for a walk
also if you wont your friends to see them y not invite them to your place


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## ScottBec (Apr 12, 2007)

Scott and I have a number of snakes (listed on the footer) and I have no problem giving people an insight as to why I keep herps... I also have pics on the wall above my work computer, and Scott and I both have customised ANZ cards with snakes (mine is the Bredli, his is the BHP's)

My point is without moving our herps, they are getting people interested and that leads, sometimes, into long discussions (and most people are shocked that a girl has herps(me) but can't wait to hear more) and sometimes they then want to see the snakes...

I must say I'm not wanting to 'show off' or exhibit my herps, ( I also have a Credit Card with the dog on it) but people ARE interested, and I'm not going to invite a stranger to my house... So I have offered to meet them at the same place (ie their work), or at their place... 
My herps are under my care, and a touch on the tail is the most people do.. and it's with the anti-bac gell before and after.... AND I usually convince people there are better snakes than dead snakes - - mine!?!?!?


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## jordo (Apr 12, 2007)

I haven't managed to read all posts yet but here is my respose:
- disease and effect on wild populations is a risk - and I'll also point out snakes have few similarities with cats and dogs and can not be compared imo.
- you say it should be YOUR descision so basically you decide its ok FOR YOU, yet you would act as a vector for disease and viruses for the rest of the herp community.
- a comment was made about educating the public and converting shovel wielders - its called a demonstrators licence in Vic, I'm sure you have something similar. Also you don't always need a live example to prove your point.
- and lastly why would you want to? You say you want the freedom to take your snakes to friends etc., just invite them over, and a walk on the beach... its romantic but may cause your snake a lot of stress and make it tired. Remember reptiles aren't like dogs they don't need to play, spend a lot of energy etc. most snakes prefer small spaces where they can sleep the day away.

Not having a go this is just my opinion which you requested


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## Twiggz (Apr 12, 2007)

Here Here sengir.

Surely its been established by now that your actions can/do/ are likely to have an affect of some magnitude on others (whether this be stressing the animals, risk of disease/theft, education etc etc).

Its no longer a matter as to what you as an individual wish to pursue, you need to take into account the RISK involved to the environment, wild herps, others collections, human behaviour and the education issue.

No matter how you look at this now someone is only going to sling the arguement/discussion back to one of the issues above.

Its no longer a personal choice or objective- the rules are in place for good reason and are there to avoid all "RISKS"- whether they do/ dont/ or may exist the rules stop this from occuring.

JMO and no offence intended by any means.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 12, 2007)

im all for the laws, it protects exhibitors lively hood from cowboys, and protects your herps from stress and disease etc.
IMO captive snakes should be left alone as much as possible and not played with like toys.


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## bredli84 (Apr 12, 2007)

on the point of spreading diseases such as OPMV to wild populations,
i am supprised that it has not already occured. to my knowledge OPMV has been known to exist in Aus for a while now (and may have even originated in wild Aus pops) and to my knowledge, there has not been much in the way of evidence of OPMV being a prob in wild populations. 
it occurs to me that OPMV may be carried by many wild snakes and that only in certain situations (such as captivity) will it spread and cause disiease.
god knows that there have been many escapees from private collections, and at least a few of these would have to be infected with OPMV, so where are all the dying snakes?
if anyone can answer any of these questions please do, i am mostly guessing and hypothesizing.


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## Jonno from ERD (Apr 12, 2007)

Another opinion I would like to add to the discussion.

I see a lot of people saying they would like to be able to take their animals out into the public for "education". This raises two issues - the first, which TrueBlue touched on, is that it detracts from the livelihood of wildlife demonstrators. The second issue, is that just because somebody owns a couple of pythons, doesn't mean they are in a position to educate the general public about snakes. I don't want to sound like a biggot, or an elitist, but there is a lot of misinformation circulating both in the general public, and on these internet forums. I personally believe it is better to supply no information at all, rather than tainted or incorrect information.

A third, seperate, issue is that there are quite a number of people you will encounter who have a very real fear of snakes. Whether their fear is justified is irrelevant, but do you think that you have the right to reduce someone to a shaking, crying mess, simply because you want to take your snake for walkies?

Cheers

Jonno


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## Australis (Apr 12, 2007)

Intresting thread.

I think its rather cruel to drag your "pet" reptiles around in public constantly.

If you want attention in public get a damn Mohawk, and leave the herps at home!


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## bundy (Apr 12, 2007)

with regards to moving herps around etc. you can do this 100% legally with a demonstators permit. the only catch is it will set you back an arm and a leg and you have to do a minimum of 4 reptile shows a month. ok when i first started this hobby i had a beautiful pair of diamonds, which i still have to this day. i would often ask a friend to come down to the beach with me to have a walk with the snakes, not litterally walk the snakes but take them out and have a walk through the middle of surfers paradise. ok i am now aware that this is illegal and have not done since but it was amazing what sort of responses i got from the general public. 

for starters when people saw that i had a snake drapped around my neck they would all say at first is that real. they would see it move and i would re asure them that it sure was real. some people would react what they would call normally, the usual jump out of the way omg response but i was amazed at how many people would actually say can i touch it, this and then. it actually really engaged the general public and gave me an opportunity to show them that snakes are in fact harmless. i was even able to have someone that was petrified of a snake saying the only good snake is a dead one turn around and actually appreciate these animals for what they are. i wish i could still do this, in fact it would be great to be able to do this so that people no longer fear these "dreaded creatures" but apreciate them and take an active interest in the hoppy of keeping herps and our unique and beautiful wildlife.


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## cris (Apr 12, 2007)

bundy said:


> gave me an opportunity to show them that snakes are in fact harmless



What a great message well done


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## Sdaji (Apr 13, 2007)

Greebo said:


> Treating a python like a fashion accessory is wrong on so many levels. People in our hobby tend to forget that we are in the minority. The majority of the unwashed masses do not like snakes. They will look at them behind glass or on the television and that's fine. But the majority will freak out when they come face to face with a live snake. Taking a python down to the beach is not going to change these peoples attitude.This kind of irresponsible behaviour will only continue to give our hobby a bad name.



It's rare for me to agree with Greebo on anything, so when Greebo and I wholeheartedly share a point of view, it surely must be correct!

I find it quite disturbing that a thread like this would be started based on a rule being inappropriate because only 10% of the people it applies to might cause problems! :shock: Laws are not only passed because every single person is going to cause problems if they are not there. Fewer than 10% of the population would want to collect wild snakes, should we abolish all laws preventing people from doing so? If your snake bites some stranger in a shopping center, my license may not be available to me in the near future. Even if your snake terrifies someone in a shopping center (or park, on the street, etc) because they have an insane phobia, my license (and yours and everyone else's in your city/shire/state) is at risk. What kind of person might be this irresponsible? Well, it's a little known fact, but the late Steve Irwin once had a snake he was holding bite a member of an audience while doing a show down here in Victoria and after that he was not able to get a permit to run shows in this state (he got around this by using loopholes along the lines of technically being an assistant in someone else's show, etc). Giving every Joe Moron the go ahead to take their snake out publicly is going to result in bites to the public, and in the end it will mean tighter restrictions. If this was to happen, we'd be lucky if down the track the worst that happened was were were (once again!) banned from taking our snakes off our property and suffered with an even worse public image than we already have.

There is no reason good enough to warrant wandering around in public with your snake around your neck, anyone who does this and thinks it is not for the sake of their ego is kidding themselves. Contrary to what some people might want to believe, snakes don't like going out for big adventures - they aren't dogs. Yes, they often become alert, look around more, etc etc - similar to what often happens to a person when they are absolutely terrified. Snakes on 'big adventures' can also become 'unusually docile' - humans who are abducted often go into shock and behave in this way too, becoming extremely submissive to avoid being harmed be the person holding them captive. Snake behaviour is very easy to misread and it's interesting to see that the more experience people have with snakes the less they think of them as cutesy pets. If you want something to cuddle and socialise with, get a dog or a girlfriend. If you want to impress the public, learn to juggle something.

It is insane that in some cases people can freely take their reptiles to reptile meetings. Other than a pet shop or a vet's clinic, reptile meetings are the place most likely for diseases to spread.. If you have a snake with a problem, the last thing it needs is to be dragged along to a meeting and the last thing any other reptiles at the meeting need is to have exposure to a snake with a problem. In virtually all cases, taking reptiles to a meeting is done for the sake of ego and at the expense of the animal.


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## Adam (Apr 13, 2007)

That last paragraph is oh so true!!!! In fact now you put it like that, I do have to agree with the whole lot. It would be nice to be able to take the snake out but as you state, it's just not the right thing to do.


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## MoreliaMatt (Apr 13, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> If you want to impress the public, learn to juggle something.



well said! 

i dont like the idea of taking herps out in public at all..... but the way i see it, if you want to take it to your mums place, or a mates place then just do it.... you have to be home for npws to gain entry to see if your herps are there and your not gonna be if your out.... and they are not gonna know your mates address..... so stop trying to change laws.... its not gonna happen.


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## rockman (Apr 13, 2007)

Greebo said:


> Treating a python like a fashion accessory is wrong on so many levels. People in our hobby tend to forget that we are in the minority. The majority of the unwashed masses do not like snakes. They will look at them behind glass or on the television and that's fine. But the majority will freak out when they come face to face with a live snake. Taking a python down to the beach is not going to change these peoples attitude.This kind of irresponsible behaviour will only continue to give our hobby a bad name.



Could not agree more .


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## Jungle_Freak (Apr 13, 2007)

Reptiles are not toys and should not be over handled ,


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## Luke_G (Apr 13, 2007)

Quarentine, theft, the risk of infecting your animals and other animals............ Theres a few why you shouldn't. I think youve already covered the good ones.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

alright kids now lets get off the subject of taking them out into public....

and i take great offence to all those ppl who have implied that herp keepers would only take thier snakes somewhere to show off or get attention..... my bredli is the only one that goes down the beach and usually spends half his time in my cleavage if not basking in the sun.... now he is a very small 18mth old.... so to all those implying that we herpers arent responsible enough to decide who goes where and why....

And for attention??? really come off it.... i doubt anyone on here would even bother....

Myself I work in a highly respected car dealership in Public Relations (so it is my job to look after the public image), i cover my tattooes, tie my hair back, leave my darling datsun (sorry scarlett i know u need a polish)at home and come in looking well respected....so on weekends you wouldnt recognise me in my weekend job as a DJ and in my spare time.... so to imply that i would do something for attention simply doesnt stick.... and i think most of the ppl on here would be doing the same thing....

So back to the taking it to other ppls houses I dont see why it w ould be so hard to have approved addresses on ur licence.....

And perhaps to stop every tom dick and harry moron getting reptiles WHY IS THERE NO TEST/ASSESTMENT ETC WHEN WE GET OUR LICENCE????

Fine i understand everyones arguements of PUBLIC places and snakes but i dont see why we cant take them to private places....


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## Ramsayi (Apr 13, 2007)

Can you tell me what benefit your bredli gets from being taken down to the beach?


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

if u had read ones of my previous posted i stated that its easy for me to run accross the road with him then take him into my back yard or my front yard as theres a few cars being worked on at the moment and i have 2 dogs.....


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

and dont we all agree that sunshine is beneficial in some way???


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## Ramsayi (Apr 13, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> and dont we all agree that sunshine is beneficial in some way???



Well that would depend on the situation.What time of the day and for how long is your bredli down at the beach catching rays?


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## noni (Apr 13, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> And perhaps to stop every tom dick and harry moron getting reptiles WHY IS THERE NO TEST/ASSESTMENT ETC WHEN WE GET OUR LICENCE????....


 
totally agree swingonthespiral, i'm new to herps, had my little childreni since just before christmas, and i was really surprised that i didn't have to go and do a half day course or something on basic husbandry. if it hadn't been for this site i'd be very much in the dark. there were optional courses run by private companies that i could have done however the cost was prohibitive. i reckon NPWS should AT LEAST make you go in to their office and fill out a questionnaire (that way you couldn't cheat off the net by doing it at home).


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## Ramsayi (Apr 13, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> And perhaps to stop every tom dick and harry moron getting reptiles WHY IS THERE NO TEST/ASSESTMENT ETC WHEN WE GET OUR LICENCE????



For a few people who have posted on this thread and another clever thread they should feel very lucky that there is no test/assessment before recieving a license.


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## WeLovePythons (Apr 13, 2007)

cris said:


> basically taking captive snakes around everwhere will also take captive diseases(suych as OPMV) around everywhere too.
> There is also no need to be doing it to start with, wanting to is differant to needing to.


 
I am rather confused by this statement? How can OPMV be spread tot the wild population if they are being kept away from the wild ones? I mean it isn't as if he lets it slither around in the bush and then gathers him up and takes him home again. I know of several people who keep there herps in open outdoor cages and who live in country areas where other Wild herps come into their yards so surely these situtation have a higher risk of spreading disease from captive to wild and vice versa? 

Another point of diseases spread between wild and captive....Some years ago I was involved in the distruction of every captive bird within a 30 km radius of Mangrove Mountain in order to contain the spread of a disease called Newcastle Disease. It was caused by a bacteria which is carried by native birds getting into captive birds (they believe chickens) and mutating creating the loss of co-ordinationa and muscle controll. In affect th animals infected with this disease end up starving due to them being unable to co-ordinate to get their seed. 

So with this is mind and the taking what some have said does this now mean that all captive birds regardless of wether they are native species should only be kept in cages where native birs can't get near them?? Or how about farmers dogs that breed with the native and endangered Dingoe? I think all to often people focus on one thing but we need to look at all situations. I think I should be allowed to take my herps where ever I want that animals are allowed. Why should we as Herp keepers be singled out?? another point to consider when people talk about the spread of OPMV... is how about things such as Reptile shows? I mean the people doing these shows often let people hold them and touch them as part of their discussion so how do you know that they aren't contaminating their herps???

Just something to consider anyway


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## WeLovePythons (Apr 13, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> For a few people who have posted on this thread and another clever thread they should feel very lucky that there is no test/assessment before recieving a license.


 

Never a truer word spoken... Again we need to ask Why are Herps keepers always singled out? You don't need a liscence to own a cat or dog or a meriod of other animals.. Look at the walking fish. If it got into our water ways they could devistate our native fish populations, I am led to believe that they are banned altogether in the NT for just that reason.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

well said welovepythons....


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> For a few people who have posted on this thread and another clever thread they should feel very lucky that there is no test/assessment before recieving a license.


 and i sincerely hope dude that you werent referring to me with that comment or the claws will surely be coming out....


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## Ramsayi (Apr 13, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> I think I should be allowed to take my herps where ever I want that animals are allowed. Why should we as Herp keepers be singled out??



What a lot of people are failing to realise here is that reptiles are not domesticated animals,They are also not widely accepted by the wider community.If the logic of the original post is taken to the next step then why shouldn't people (that are allowed to do so in other states) be able to take their crocs or sugar gliders etc down to the beach,pub or whatever?


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## Chimera (Apr 13, 2007)

I think the simple fact is that this law (like many other laws) is in place to prevent the remarkably stupid from doing remarkably stupid things. I personally don't see a need to take my reptiles out of the house, but that is my choice.

I think many reptile keepers are too sensitive and prone to play the victim "But people can take dogs and cats out in public". The fact is it is near impossible to remove a right once it has been allowed. There are benefits on not allowing dogs and cats out in public, but good luck in denying that to the general populace.

Whether it is right or wrong to take your reptiles out in public verges on the handling debate so I won't go there. I will say that these laws are well founded because as we have all seen and heard, there are some remarkable redneck fools keeping reptiles out there and allowing them to take reptiles out in public opens a dangerous can of worms.


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

and why do u think this is ramsayi???? because ppl have not been educated??? is this because ppl dont come into contact with them other than with a shovel??? 

and considering its illegal in most states to have crocs i dont think that would be an issue and i dont know anything about sugar gliders so im not gonna comment....


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## Chris1 (Apr 13, 2007)

i've had alot of people show interest in my pets and ask me to bring them over to show their kids and stuff.
i've also had neighbours knock on the door asking if they and their kids could hold my bredli cos they saw him basking on the balcony.

although people may not agree with it, i always take my dragons to mums fro a run in the back yard, cos thats something i cant offer them, (i live in a unit) i also take them to my boyfriends cos he has a patch of grass to offer them too, and a few trees to climb, and they love it.

on the way to and back from his place plenty of people have wanted to look in the cat carrier and asked it their kids could touch them.

people who freak out at them dont have to go near them, but i find the majority of the population are geniunely interested in them.

i definately think they should at least be allowed to be taken to other residences.

yeah, there should be a basic test to get a license, i'd take it even further in saying there should be a test for each species before people are allowed to buy them.


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## Aslan (Apr 13, 2007)

I have yet to read in this thread any suitable reason WHY your reptiles should be taken out in public - the general reason seems to be because my friends want to see them or mum wants me to bring it over for Sunday roast...hardly reasons in place for the benefit of the animal and merely 'showing off' their animal (whether you take offence to the term or not)...

...and as soon as someone points out that this is the reason then the reason immediately returns to the education of the public, bt as Jonno from ERD has pointed out, just because you keep a herp doesn't necessarily mean you are the right person to be educating the general populace - in fact it seems quite an arrogant claim. Undoubtedly when people find out you keep reptiles they have a plethora of questions, I am always happy to answer them to the best of my knowledge, but in saying that it would be irresponsible to consider myself someone out there to turn the masses without suitable education yourself...

...but this is an easy problem to counter, if your sole consideration when taking your animals outside for a lovely stroll on the beach is to educate those you pass then surely there is a simple explanation - get yourself an exhibitors licence...they may be expensive but if your goal in life is to educate people about them then it shouldn't be a problem. If it is a problem then perhaps you should resign yourself to only educating those people you trust at your residence...

Regarding 'approved premises' - think about the practical application of that. Does that mean that when NPWS decide to do a spot check on you they need to send the same number of officers to ALL addresses listed on your licence? This obviously can't work as it will quadruple the number of staff required...

...or do they just pick one of the four addresses listed? giving you a 75% chance to keep your exotic smuggled or stolen animals undiscovered...??

There are a number of major reasons why these laws are in place, which have all been brought up a number of times through this thread, and it is irresponsible pet ownership to wish for it any other way. If you are upset that Jim next door can walk his poodle where he likes but you can't take your Coastal then buy yourself a poodle...they may also appreciate the long walks a bit more as well...

Simon


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

ASLAN.... why am i irresponsible to let my family also enjoy my reptiles??? my mum has full time care of my senile and voilent grandma so for her to leave the house to come see me is not an option..... by the way im a vego so theres no sunday roast....

why am i irresonsible to take my snakes out while no one is around to get some sun??? it would be irresonsible to do so in my own home, my housemate is a wildlife carer so with my 2 dogs at the momentin the backyard is 5 magpie geese, a barn owl and an injured frill neck so the risk of me taking him out at the moment is far more than running over to a basically deserted beach for 10mins.....


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## Tsidasa (Apr 13, 2007)

Hix said:


> In NSW you are allowed to take your reptile to a Herp Society meeting.
> 
> Now, something that hasn't been considered: you want the law changed so you can take your snake or lizard to the beach, or friends, or work etc. Your snake won't bite, it's not stressed, and you think you're doing a service by introducing people to the wonderful world of reptiles.
> 
> ...



I agree I think it will do more harm than good.
Because...one horrible incident with a snake will be frowned upon much more than a dog or a cat or anything like that.
I think one "accident" caused by an idiot would cause a crack down on laws to keep the general populace happy. There's still too many people that think a good snake is a dead snake. I think if this was passed as a law it would be met with too much unease.


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## Aslan (Apr 13, 2007)

*Swingonthespiral* - The risks involved with transporting your animals back and forth have been discussed over and over so far in this thread - whether you want it or not, or even whether it is PROBABLE or not, it is still quite POSSIBLE for you WANTING to do something that potentially has negative impacts on the entire herp community, their collections and wild specimens. Being RESPONSIBLE would be to sacrifice your wants in light of the overall wellbeing of the rest...

Why does your Bredli go for a walk to the beach? You say because it needs some sunlight, where 99% would be kept and bred happily in captivity never receiving a ray...so the question remains WHY does your Bredli go outside with you, because you WANT it to...refer to previous paragraph about the irresponsibility of that...

Simon


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

aslan.... im sure if i let him out the first place i would find him would be basking in the sun.... are we saying that reptiles dont need enrichment at all???? isnt it a fact that every animal in the world enjoys (for lack of a better word) something????


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## Aslan (Apr 13, 2007)

No, I'm not sure that's a fact...I may be wrong but I would appreciate any reference you could provide me that states otherwise...

Enjoyment is a human emotion, it would be anthropomorphosising to consider a reptile basking in the sun to be enjoying it...it is more likely he is merely looking for warmth because he no longer has his heat lamp...he NEEDS warmth - which of course is provided by heat lamp...


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## Chris1 (Apr 13, 2007)

well, Loki clings to his tree on the balcony when i go to take him in, but never clings to anything in his cage when i go to take him out.

both places provide him with heat, but he clearly prefers being outside.


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## Tsidasa (Apr 13, 2007)

my snake enjoys eating mice =D i know because of the look of sheer delight and the big toothy grin


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## Aslan (Apr 13, 2007)

Chris1 said:


> well, Loki clings to his tree on the balcony when i go to take him in, but never clings to anything in his cage when i go to take him out.
> 
> both places provide him with heat, but he clearly prefers being outside.


 
By that theory why not release him irrespective of the consequences...it is clearly what he wants


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## Chris1 (Apr 13, 2007)

cos i like him and i want to keep him! 


but that doesnt mean he wants to stay in his cage at all times,..!


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## Isis (Apr 13, 2007)

The scary thing about this thread is that unfortunately some people dont take the threat of disease seriously. I dont want to bump into someone in the street whos snake has OPMV and then unwittingly take it home to my collection or pass it on to someone elses. They do not know how it is transmitted and people who have the strictest quarentine in place and have done so for years are getting it. 
Then theres the stress and the public opinion ect ect ect. Walking along the beach or to a mates place with a python in your arms is only going to interest a few people but it is also giving them the wrong idea. We need to get away from the "cool" image of keeping reptiles. Unfortunately there are too many people that keep snakes for that very reason and thats not a good thing.
If you want an unusual pet to get attention when you walk down the street then get a ferret or rat. Dont be cruel and use your herps to get attention, which I believe is the underlying reason. If your mum, brother partner or mate is interested. Give them the paperwork to get there own licence and head them towards a reputable breeder and let them get there own. If you really want to educate get the right attitude and a whole lot more information then get an exhibitors licence.


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## Aslan (Apr 13, 2007)

Very well said Isis...


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## mrsshep77 (Apr 13, 2007)

I am in agreeance Aslan & Isis, we have to think of our herps first! I know it's not fair that we can't take our beloved pets the same places that others take their dogs etc to but isn't this why we have reptiles to begin with - because we don't want your EVERY day normal pet!
I love my snakes and would do anything to protect them from disease and other people's stupid behaviour (thieves etc) so I don't want to draw unwanted attention to myself or my herps! They cost a fortune to purchase and upkeep as it is I don't then want to add the cost of replacing stolen herps when someone who decides they want what I have breaks into my house after following me home from our little outing!
I understand there is frustration, however rules are generally in place for a reason... to protect US or in this case our herps!
I know my family & friends love interacting with our snakes and I definately encourage that, but it's under strict conditions at my house! I don't want to take them some place that I can't control the conditions. I'm not saying your family would knowingly do something to hurt or inadvertantly infect your snakes but it's just too big a risk to take!
I know sometimes rules can be very restricting and hinder us at times but just think about the alternative... not having the rules! What if we could all take our snakes whereever we wanted, we run the risk of our snakes hurting other people or god forbid a child, infections from other snakes (wild or captive) and we run the hugest risk of escape and theft!
We see the headlines when somebodies dog has mauled a child or even adults and then that animal is put to sleep.. could you imagine if it's your beloved 5yr old herp thats been in the family since birth and never bitten before but being put into a situation that stresses(which is highly possible) it can make even the most placid animals do the unthinkable...and then what, they put your snake down and all for what?? Because we hated those "stupid" rules! 
Just really think about what the possibilities are if these rules aren't in place... regardless if you know your snake or you think you have the situation controlled! There is still room for human error and things DO go wrong even with the best of intentions!

Mell


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 13, 2007)

very valid points from everyone.

I just wanted to point out that i didn't buy my snakes because I didn't want an "every day" pet as you call them. I bought my snakes because I genuinely love snakes and have ever since I first found out that they existed when I was a young child. As a teen I found out that you could actually OWN such wonderful creatures, and then since that day I have been wanting one of my very own. Eight years later and I finally win the plea with my parents to let me get one (or two or six :lol

My point is, I am not trying to be weird or different, I am just doing what I am passionate about.

I hope every herp-keeper can say the same.

-Penny


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 13, 2007)

oh yeah I also wanted to say that snakes cost as much as dogs do, no more expensive than a "normal" pet.

and I'm sure when snakes start popping out babies as fast as rats and rabbits do, they will be priced accordingly.

-penny


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

same here.... i got the passion from my pop... who used to travel the world with the his work..... ive got pics of him with snakes from everywhere ill be sure to post..... ever since i first held a snake at 6yrs old... a 2.5m diamond at batemans bay nsw birdland and animal park named boris..... i think we all knwo that us on here are respsonible and have a genuine passion for snakes.... im not tryin to be cool i drive a bloody datsun for buggers sake.... i dont think any of these offensive comments in regards to showing off or being cool or using our snakes as an acessory apply in here.... :x


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

and yeah they do cost as much as dogs.... chocolate border collie pups with papers $500 if ur lucky..... pound puppy at least $150.....


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## bredli84 (Apr 13, 2007)

what kinda datsun? some are cool. 240z's are very cool


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

74 260z... her name is scarlett and i love her but i get told a million times a day to take her to the wreckers or sell her even though shes only got 82thousand kms on it and has no rust:shock:


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## Chris1 (Apr 13, 2007)

my brother and i started hassling my parents fro a snake when we were 8 and 10,... the doctor down the street had a diamond python and we fell in love.

they refused and 23 years later after i'd grown up and finished 'partying' i finally bought my own.


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## bredli84 (Apr 13, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> 74 260z... her name is scarlett and i love her but i get told a million times a day to take her to the wreckers or sell her even though shes only got 82thousand kms on it and has no rust:shock:



see! that is a cool datsun! dont wreck it, restore her.


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## mrsshep77 (Apr 13, 2007)

I thought this thread was a discussion about why we can't take our herps out in public?? It seems to have been lost in all the conversations about other things!


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

never intended to wreck her... and in the process of restoring.... but i didnt buy her cos i wanted to be cool.... my dad used to have one so it was for sentimental purposes....


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## bredli84 (Apr 13, 2007)

mrsshep77 said:


> I thought this thread was a discussion about why we can't take our herps out in public?? It seems to have been lost in all the conversations about other things!



what do u drive?


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## Sdaji (Apr 13, 2007)

croc_hunter_penny said:


> very valid points from everyone.
> 
> I just wanted to point out that i didn't buy my snakes because I didn't want an "every day" pet as you call them. I bought my snakes because I genuinely love snakes and have ever since I first found out that they existed when I was a young child. As a teen I found out that you could actually OWN such wonderful creatures, and then since that day I have been wanting one of my very own. Eight years later and I finally win the plea with my parents to let me get one (or two or six :lol
> 
> ...



If you want something which isn't an "every day" pet, understand that it is not an "every day" pet and most certainly shouldn't be kept as an "every day" pet. If you want to have a pet which you _can_ treat as an "every day" pet, make sure you actually _get_ an "every day" pet.


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## Chris1 (Apr 13, 2007)

everyday pets are very hard to keep when u live in units with every day pet restrictions,..!!


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## jords (Apr 13, 2007)

late post to the subject.... but i didnt realise you werent allowed to take pythons out of the house ??(im pretty uneducated i guess)... ive taken my lover boy(3 yr old olive) for a walk to get milk, but he was curled up in my jumper, the thing that has stopped me from taking him out more is his safety, not anyone elses...


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

i wouldnt bother now mate this thread has gone just like so many of the other ones on here.... 

and my herps get driven to my mums house in my car.... and it was in the assumption that all we get our herps for is to be cool so thats how it got off track....


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## olivehydra (Apr 13, 2007)

bredli84 said:


> what kinda datsun? some are cool. 240z's are very cool



Indeed. I miss my 240  The only Japanese made car to date to be given "classic" status. I dont know who issues such awards but I'm sure they know their stuff  Goertz was on the design team for the 240, (as he was for the famous bmw 507) - so it must be true .


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## Sdaji (Apr 13, 2007)

Chris1 said:


> everyday pets are very hard to keep when u live in units with every day pet restrictions,..!!



That may be the case, but it's no reason to treat your snake as the dog you're not allowed to have.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 13, 2007)

sdaji it isn't whether i want an everday pet or not, I wanted snakes plain and simple.

I do not treat them anything like 'every day' pets, they probably get better treatment though :lol: 
I do handle them occasionally, some days for 5 minutes and some days for an hour or three. I do take mine into the yard occasionally for some sunshine and they love the grass too (not easy to grow grass in the tank, although I plan on experimenting on that very soon - that's for another thread though) and I only take them out one at a time so I can keep a very close eye on them.

I have only taken them to a mates place 2 times and I wish to do so more often (once a month or less most likely) and my posts were in reference to whether it should be possible to register a 2nd address or if I should just continue doing so. I NEVER take my snakes out in public, moreso for their safety than anyone elses, as people tend to be a lot more unpredictable than snakes. I don't need a stranger trying to shovel my baby!

Personally, I don't want to do it as a regular thing, I was not talking about doing weekly shows at my house or my mates house. It was just an occasional thing, and not with strangers, not in public. Also not charging money. If i wanted to do it more regularly then I would be absolutely more than happy to invest in an exhibitors licence, after doing a course or two so that I had solid information to share with people, rather than just personal research (which I tell my friends when they ask questions that I can't confidently answer)


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## Greebo (Apr 13, 2007)

I don't have a problem with people taking an animal to a friends/relatives place on the odd occassion. I have done so myself. However, none of these people keep reptiles themselves so the risk of spreading disease is very limited.

On another point. You simply can not compare reptiles to mammals. A snake is not the same as a dog. I built a nice little enclosure for my Malamute. My dog is 140cm head to tail so I made the enclosure 80cm long which is more than half. It was a bit of an effort to get him in there but I can tell that he is happy...even if he doesn't have enough room to wag his tail, he looks like he is smiling.
Wait on...I think the RSPCA is knocking at my door.........I'll be back.


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## olivehydra (Apr 13, 2007)

Greebo said:


> I don't have a problem with people taking an animal to a friends/relatives place on the odd occassion. I have done so myself. However, none of these people keep reptiles themselves so the risk of spreading disease is very limited.
> 
> On another point. You simply can not compare reptiles to mammals. A snake is not the same as a dog. I built a nice little enclosure for my Malamute. My dog is 140cm head to tail so I made the enclosure 80cm long which is more than half. It was a bit of an effort to get him in there but I can tell that he is happy...even if he doesn't have enough room to wag his tail, he looks like he is smiling.
> Wait on...I think the RSPCA is knocking at my door.........I'll be back.




dock its tail and reduce to 60cm, more economical with materials?


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## nuthn2do (Apr 13, 2007)

Just when i was going out to find a dead horse to flog ............. 
Time for a beer


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## Greebo (Apr 13, 2007)

olivehydra said:


> dock its tail and reduce to 60cm, more economical with materials?



That would just be cruel.


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## Sdaji (Apr 13, 2007)

nuthn2do said:


> Just when i was going out to find a dead horse to flog .............
> Time for a beer



You racist illegitimate child!


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## nuthn2do (Apr 13, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> You racist illegitimate child!


How about a deceased appaloosa?


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## WeLovePythons (Apr 13, 2007)

Aslan you talk about no one giving a good reason for having their herps out and about and potential egative threats to our herps and the native wildlife? How about the POTENTIAL threat to wildlife when you see people walk around with parrots on their should or people that let their cats run around at night outside or farmers who let their dogs run around POTENTIAL mating with our wild native dogs? If we live in a world of POTENTIAL this and that we would never leave our homes. My partner and I take our herps to my daughters school to educate the kids there but by doing this i am supposedly breaking the law?? You say that if people like me are interested in educating people we should go out and get an exhibitors licence?? Well why should I have to spend $5000 just to educate people? I am interested to know wether you and people of the like thinking have stopped to ask why it is that we Herpers have such troubles and such a bad name with the main stream public? Well it's simple it's because there is such a lack of education for the public. 

I don't disagree exactly with the current laws but I do however disagree with the cost incurred for the chance to exhibit? The general public will never have the chance to learn if we can't have the chance to offer them any information????


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## Isis (Apr 13, 2007)

And if it was cheaper you would have heaps of uneducated idiots running around giving wrong information and taking crap............


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## Hickson (Apr 14, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> How about the POTENTIAL threat to wildlife when you see people walk around with parrots on their should or people that let their cats run around at night outside or farmers who let their dogs run around POTENTIAL mating with our wild native dogs? If we live in a world of POTENTIAL this and that we would never leave our homes.



Already so many potential threats to our wildlife and you consider that justification to add another threat and make it worse? Think about it.




WeLovePythons said:


> My partner and I take our herps to my daughters school to educate the kids there but by doing this i am supposedly breaking the law??



Not supposedly, you _*are*_ breaking the law. 



WeLovePythons said:


> You say that if people like me are interested in educating people we should go out and get an exhibitors licence?? Well why should I have to spend $5000 just to educate people? I am interested to know wether you and people of the like thinking have stopped to ask why it is that we Herpers have such troubles and such a bad name with the main stream public? Well it's simple it's because there is such a lack of education for the public.



That's one of many reasons. Another reason is that many herpers are either arrogant or ignorant and ignore the laws if they don't agree with them.



Hix


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## Aslan (Apr 14, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> My partner and I take our herps to my daughters school to educate the kids there but by doing this i am supposedly breaking the law??


 
This hilights my point exactly - have you considered what would happen to the rest of the herp society when one of your snakes, so overly stressed by a horde of small children, strikes out and tags one on the face...?

The authorities would clamp down absurdly on the hobby as a whole...because of one person deciding they were more important than the rest...

I have mentioned this previously and will again, RESPONSIBLE pet ownership is the key, regardless of species - it is entirely IRRESPONSIBLE to take it upon yourself to flaunt the rules when the flow on from that is potentially going to adversely affect the entire herp community...we see how much publi outcry occurs when some clown gets himself bitten on the drink...imagine what would happen if a herper took a snake in public (eg. a school) and a child got bitten...


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## mrsshep77 (Apr 14, 2007)

I agree Aslan and until I read this thread I didn't think twice about taking them out in public, not that I've made a habit of it, only when necessary!
We just don't think of the "what if's" sometimes. I understand the need to help educate people as I find myself doing when family and friends make stupid comments but I know I don't have all the answers or know all the correct ways of doing things and I'm constantly researching myself.
We need to respect the rules and the reason they are put into place, not to make our lives miserable (by not being able to take our snakes where we want) but protecting us from our beloved animals being targeted and misrepresented in the community!
As much as we'd all like to think our snakes are placid and wouldn't hurt a fly (can't guarentee a rats safety tho.. hehe) there are still SO MANY people out there who just don't understand reptiles and could potentially harm them!
I can tell you that my 7ft diamond python wouldn't strike out at you and letting your young child handle it will be ok but that would be irresponsible of me because that snake is used to me handling it and is familiar with me, a young child might squeeze to tightly or "accidentally" hurt him and I've got a "potential" disaster on my hands as a 7ft python would do some damage to a young child!
It's ok to have friends and family enjoy them in your home, which is familiar surroundings to the snake but out in public where it's not familiar is too much of risk and NOBODY could guarentee their reptile WON'T hurt someone! We see stories on a regular basis where someone's beloved and seemingly placid pet has turned on someone, even their owners, so why can't our snakes do the same? They are technically wild animals domesticated for humans.
This isn't an attack on people who don't agree with the laws as I understand you're frustration, I'm merely pointing out MY OPINION on why the rules exist!
We have speed limits in cars and alcohol limits and all these other rules, so why is this so different?
Mell  



Aslan said:


> This hilights my point exactly - have you considered what would happen to the rest of the herp society when one of your snakes, so overly stressed by a horde of small children, strikes out and tags one on the face...?
> 
> The authorities would clamp down absurdly on the hobby as a whole...because of one person deciding they were more important than the rest...
> 
> I have mentioned this previously and will again, RESPONSIBLE pet ownership is the key, regardless of species - it is entirely IRRESPONSIBLE to take it upon yourself to flaunt the rules when the flow on from that is potentially going to adversely affect the entire herp community...we see how much publi outcry occurs when some clown gets himself bitten on the drink...imagine what would happen if a herper took a snake in public (eg. a school) and a child got bitten...


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## wichita (Apr 14, 2007)

Chimera said:


> I think the simple fact is that this law (like many other laws) is in place to prevent the remarkably stupid from doing remarkably stupid things. I personally don't see a need to take my reptiles out of the house, but that is my choice.
> 
> I think many reptile keepers are too sensitive and prone to play the victim "But people can take dogs and cats out in public". The fact is it is near impossible to remove a right once it has been allowed. There are benefits on not allowing dogs and cats out in public, but good luck in denying that to the general populace.
> 
> Whether it is right or wrong to take your reptiles out in public verges on the handling debate so I won't go there. I will say that these laws are well founded because as we have all seen and heard, there are some remarkable redneck fools keeping reptiles out there and allowing them to take reptiles out in public opens a dangerous can of worms.


 
Agree totally.
The law exists to protect the majority from the foolish few. Enjoy your herps in the privacy of your own home.


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## WeLovePythons (Apr 14, 2007)

Aslan best you take a step backwards and think twice before trying to put words in my mouth. Show me where I said I let any children handle any Herps. As for the Super Moderator may I say that from what I have seen in past threads you and other Moderators have locked threads that have began to become targeted at individuals (i.e. potentially upsetting or offending individuals) but you have partaken in such behaviour yourself, I feel uncomfortable with the way you made your post.

Now back to the topic at hand. How do all you who know best suggest educating the public in order to change their ideas on Herps if you don't wnat anyone to teach them??




Isis said:


> And if it was cheaper you would have heaps of uneducated idiots running around giving wrong information and taking crap............


 
How is this so Isis?? I never said that they should do away with all the other requirements that are needed to be fulfilled i.e. approved topical materials. I only believe that the amount for the licence should be reduced. I believe that all other requirements should be met. Your statement says to me that if you can afford the cost of the licence that you are smarter then someone who can't afford it??? Since when did someones personal wealth dictate their IQ level or wether someone was educated or not? I never realised being poorer then the bloke next door meant he was smarter and better educated then me????


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## dragons75 (Apr 14, 2007)

Dunno if it's been said but if you want an animal for show and to parade around get a dog.And if getting popularity points from your mates is why you keep herps your a goose and don't deserve the right to own these animals. IMO


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## Aslan (Apr 14, 2007)

*WeLovePythons* - Best _YOU_ take a step backwards and think twice before putting words in _MY _mouth...at no point did I suggest that you allow any school children to handle your reptiles. That would be even more irresponsible than you taking them there in the first place...

...and I think you will find that the topic ACTUALLY at hand has absolutely nothing to do with you educating school children but is a topic regarding the legality of moving your reptiles around. However, I think you will find that everyone involved in the hobby would love to see people become more educated about reptiles in general...

...there is a question about WHO should be teaching these things though. Merely having a reptile at home is hardly sufficient background to suppose that you are in a position to educate the public in general, and this seems to be the view of many so far who are arguing against the restrictions on movement.

I have lived in a house my entire life, but I am hardly qualified to teach people construction...


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## WeLovePythons (Apr 15, 2007)

Aslan I get the impression that you seem to consider yourself an authority of some sort? I thought these forums were to give people the opportunity to express their point of view but from what I have been reading in old threads people (such as you in this case) go overboard with your replies trying to force people to submit to your will. Well I don't care what your opinion is or what the opinions of others are. You and a few others here have jumped to the conclussion that you seem to know me or my partner? Well this could not be further from the truth. You know nothing of us. But let me enlighten you all. For starters we have just moved to NSW not to long ago from QLD and while I asked why should I have to pay $5000 for an exhibitors licence I never at any time said we hadn't already paid for a licence. We held and I guess still hold and Exhibitors licence in QLD so I guess that also means I am not breaking the law?? Funny how people always jump to conclussions about things when they think they know everything. I am considering getting one for NSW but may not due to the cost. So I think this is an excellent example of what I am saying about the cost. We both have experience keeping and also on doing educational talks with approved material but now we may not do it any further simply because of cost and I think that is a shame when cost dictates....


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## swingonthespiral (Apr 15, 2007)

dragons75 said:


> Dunno if it's been said but if you want an animal for show and to parade around get a dog.And if getting popularity points from your mates is why you keep herps your a goose and don't deserve the right to own these animals. IMO


 
OMG DUDE..... how many times have i had to say that NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT THEY HAVE THIER HERPS FOR SHOWING OFF..... dude seriously.... i think it has been posted in many threads my opinion of ppl who do this..... perhaps one should actually read all the posted replies rather than jumping to the conclusion that we are all into herps becasue we want the wow factor..... plz go to the thread "clever snake" i think the point was argued there......:evil:


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## Isis (Apr 15, 2007)

The point was making was not that only the rich should be able to get exhibitors licences....I meant that no matter what socio economic group you fall into that the high cost means that it will make people who get them really want to do it and not just someone saying....hey I know what im doing Ill pay the couple of dollars to get the licence and then go out and sprout off. I know people who have exhibitors licences that struggle financially but budgetted tightly for a very long time to get the licence they really wanted. They also appreciate the responsibility that goes with holding such a licence and have researched studied and still are as things change all the time , to make sure they have the up to date info and plenty of experience and knowledge to do what they do responsibly. They do educational stuff for no charge so its not a money making venture, the educate not show off and they take the utmost care to everything with the animals welfare being top priority at all times. Money doesnt mean you are smart or have common sense.


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## dragons75 (Apr 15, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> OMG DUDE..... how many times have i had to say that NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT THEY HAVE THIER HERPS FOR SHOWING OFF..... dude seriously.... i think it has been posted in many threads my opinion of ppl who do this..... perhaps one should actually read all the posted replies rather than jumping to the conclusion that we are all into herps becasue we want the wow factor..... plz go to the thread "clever snake" i think the point was argued there......:evil:



And were did i say anyone does ? I said iIF THEY DO learn to read and welove pythons if you have a problem bring it up in the open not with pathetic pms


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## Aslan (Apr 15, 2007)

*Welovepythons *- I don't even come close to considering myself an authority, and have stated that quite openly in many posts throughout this thread (and many others)...and you're correct, there forums ARE for giving people the opportunity to express their point of view - which is exactly what I am doing...

I have a very strong point of view on this matter - as you obviously also have. I am also quite happy to debate this issue from my stand point. The problem is that you seem to be more inclined to take offence or search for arguments during the debate as we have different points of view...

...your original post mentions absolutely nothing of you holding an exhibitors licence (which I am quite happy to take your word for) so seems to suggest that your contribution to the thread has been designed solely to stir the pot - and despite me not being any authority on the matter, you may want to check with NPWS regarding your status as an exhibitor in NSW as most licences do not carry with you from state to state due to the different criteria required...

Now, can I please ask again, if we are to continue in this thread can you please keep the posts on topic as this is becoming quite tiresome...


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## Hickson (Apr 15, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> As for the Super Moderator may I say that from what I have seen in past threads you and other Moderators have locked threads that have began to become targeted at individuals (i.e. potentially upsetting or offending individuals) but you have partaken in such behaviour yourself, I feel uncomfortable with the way you made your post.



One of the reasons why Moderators lock threads is when individuals are personally attacked. My post attacked your argument, not you.



Hix


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## cris (Apr 16, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> Aslan best you take a step backwards and think twice before trying to put words in my mouth. Show me where I said I let any children handle any Herps. As for the Super Moderator may I say that from what I have seen in past threads you and other Moderators have locked threads that have began to become targeted at individuals (i.e. potentially upsetting or offending individuals) but you have partaken in such behaviour yourself, I feel uncomfortable with the way you made your post.



Well i feel uncomfortable about you feeling uncomfortable about his post because their was nothing personally offending about it at all. If you dont want ppl to respond to your opinions and questions you should keep them to yourself.


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## WeLovePythons (Apr 17, 2007)

cris said:


> Well i feel uncomfortable about you feeling uncomfortable about his post because their was nothing personally offending about it at all. If you dont want ppl to respond to your opinions and questions you should keep them to yourself.


 

Tell me cris are you trying to make things worse with this post of yours? It appears that you only made your post to have a shot?

Aslan just to clarify for you, I know that licences don't transfer from state to state. This is part of my point I guess in that you pay an exorbitant amount of money for the privelage to exhibit and teach in one state but then when/if you move you have to pay the same amount all over again. Maybe the answer is that for that amount maybe they should make it a National licence? Just a thought. what do you think? Also maybe they could reduce the cost of movement advices and have it allowable that you can take our Herps around so long as we fill one out each time, if you know what I mean?

Dragon75 : for the record I sent you a PM to try and settle it like adults without putting it in this thread but since you want it this way,, I would like to inform you that I have forwarded you reply on to the Moderators for review and I hope that you recieve an infraction for it as I believe it is in contradiction to the site rules.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 17, 2007)

Greebo said:


> I don't have a problem with people taking an animal to a friends/relatives place on the odd occassion. I have done so myself. However, none of these people keep reptiles themselves so the risk of spreading disease is very limited.
> 
> On another point. You simply can not compare reptiles to mammals. A snake is not the same as a dog. I built a nice little enclosure for my Malamute. My dog is 140cm head to tail so I made the enclosure 80cm long which is more than half. It was a bit of an effort to get him in there but I can tell that he is happy...even if he doesn't have enough room to wag his tail, he looks like he is smiling.
> Wait on...I think the RSPCA is knocking at my door.........I'll be back.



None of my friends own reptiles either.

I can compare reptiles to mammals.. Every animal needs to be given appropriate living space according to their size and behaviour. A friend of mine in America kept 2 italian greyhounds in a cage that wouldn't have been more than 2½ foot long, wide and high, letting them out for walks and toilet. Dogs are lucky enough to get back yards, cats get the insides of houses. Cats can't escape or get lost as easily as snakes, so it is for our own convenience and the snake's safety that we keep snakes in enclosures. You don't keep rats in your yard or livingroom, they do just fine with a small cage. You don't even keep lizards in an enclosure half their bodylength. Snakes just happen to be extremely bendy 

-penny


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