# Handling non Identified snakes



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Just want peoples thoughts. There is a thread at the moment where someone has been criticized for heading a snake he couldn't identify, he appeared to have at least some knowledge in handling snakes, I have some experience in handling, mainly spotted brown (dugite) and Western Tigers these are the only elapids I'm likely to come into contact with that are considered dangerously venomous besides the common Adder I am licensed to relocate snakes though am far from what I would consider experienced, I believe that I had to start somewhere and if I ever felt out of my depth I would call for assistance from someone with greater experience. there are plenty of snakes that I could come across that could be considered extremely unpleasant, how important is it for me to be able to identify these animals in order to handle them? If someone has experience in handling some highly venomous Elapids does it qualify them to handle the others that he hasn't yet come across and possibly can't ID? Is snake behaviour that variable that a positive ID needs to be made before any attempt at handling it?
For the sake of this thread lets exclude an example of death adders.

Steve


----------



## Nighthawk (Nov 12, 2010)

Personally, I reckon if you can't identify it to the point where you know if it's venomous or not don't touch it. If however, you know it's vemonous, know how to handle elapids etc, then not knowing the variety of the elapid in question is rather moot as long as you can tell which part is the dangerous bit isn't it? All I know is that if I saw something other than a python in the wild I'd call someone who knows how to handle them. In my case my husband lol.


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

yes snake behavior is that variable 

but for something like a very common and easily identifiable snake such as a hemiaspis signata if you dont know what it is then clearly you dont have much experience!


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 12, 2010)

Farma said:


> yes snake behavior is that variable.
> 
> but for something like a very common and easily identifiable snake such as a hemiaspis signata if you dont know what it is then clearly you dont have much experience!



Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## Wookie (Nov 12, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Just want peoples thoughts. There is a thread at the moment where someone has been criticized for heading a snake he couldn't identify, he appeared to have at least some knowledge in handling snakes, I have some experience in handling, mainly spotted brown (dugite) and Western Tigers these are the only elapids I'm likely to come into contact with that are considered dangerously venomous besides the common Adder I am licensed to relocate snakes though am far from what I would consider experienced, I believe that I had to start somewhere and if I ever felt out of my depth I would call for assistance from someone with greater experience. there are plenty of snakes that I could come across that could be considered extremely unpleasant, how important is it for me to be able to identify these animals in order to handle them? If someone has experience in handling some highly venomous Elapids does it qualify them to handle the others that he hasn't yet come across and possibly can't ID? Is snake behaviour that variable that a positive ID needs to be made before any attempt at handling it?
> For the sake of this thread lets exclude an example of death adders.
> 
> Steve


 
If you know how to do it safely then sure. I'm sure if people know the risk and if you are prepared to risk being bit then go for it. Positive ID is not really essential so long as you treat all unidentified snakes like something as deadly as taipans :lol:. But I personally wouldn't risk it just for ID. And being unable to identify a snake doesn't at all mean you don't know how to handle a snake (talking about people who have handled before not people who have no idea what they're doing). I've seen ID threads on here and self proclaimed experts sometimes have trouble identifying a snake through close up pictures so i'd imagine occasions would arise where it'd be much harder to ID without catching it.


----------



## spiderdan (Nov 12, 2010)

Farma said:


> yes snake behavior is that variable
> 
> but for something like a very common and easily identifiable snake such as a hemiaspis signata if you dont know what it is then clearly you dont have much experience!


 
I don't total agree with that as there distribution range is very small and people in WA, NT and SA may never have encounted them so unless they have studied up on all the snakes in oz them may not be able to id that perticular snake.
Just because you can not id that snake dose not mean you don't have much experience it means you don't have much experience with the hemiaspis signata ( Marsh snake).


----------



## Kalashnikov (Nov 12, 2010)

Not the smartest thing you could do


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

spiderdan said:


> I don't total agree with that as there distribution range is very small and people in WA, NT and SA may never have encounted them so unless they have studied up on all the snakes in oz them may not be able to id that perticular snake.
> Just because you can not id that snake dose not mean you don't have much experience it means you don't have much experience with the hemiaspis signata ( Marsh snake).


 

Agreed I'm in WA so wouldn't confidantly ID it, lets say for arguments sake I am very experienced in dealing with WA's, in particular Perth's common elapids P. affinis, P. nuchalis N. scutatus P. australis. These are the most commonly encountered in the Perth and surrounding areas Also considered common are Bardicks, Whips, Crowns, however these are rarely encountered and I personally haven't encountered any of them myself. Would my extensive knowledge of our highly venomous species equip me to deal with these less commonly encountered species even if I couldn't ID them?


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Kalashnikov said:


> Not the smartest thing you could do



What isn't


----------



## Echiopsis (Nov 12, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Agreed I'm in WA so wouldn't confidantly ID it, lets say for arguments sake I am very experienced in dealing with WA's, in particular Perth's common elapids P. affinis, P. nuchalis N. scutatus P. australis. These are the most commonly encountered in the Perth and surrounding areas Also considered common are Bardicks, Whips, Crowns, however these are rarely encountered and I personally haven't encountered any of them myself. Would my extensive knowledge of our highly venomous species equip me to deal with these less commonly encountered species even if I couldn't ID them?


 
Yes.


----------



## Snakelove (Nov 12, 2010)

Steve1 do you do the same 'routine' or procedure when relocating snakes? I don't exactly know how it goes but I'm guessing if you have the experience to know how to bag a snake safely then it shouldn't matter if it's a venomous or a python. Or maybe I'm missing the whole point here.


----------



## Kalashnikov (Nov 12, 2010)

Handling a snake which you can't I.D.
Secondly I can't see any reason to handle a wild snake unless you are relocating it.


----------



## -Peter (Nov 12, 2010)

I ask myself, do I have the right to deny others the same experiences that I had growing up with reptiles?


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

spiderdan said:


> I don't total agree with that as there distribution range is very small and people in WA, NT and SA may never have encounted them so unless they have studied up on all the snakes in oz them may not be able to id that perticular snake.
> Just because you can not id that snake dose not mean you don't have much experience it means you don't have much experience with the hemiaspis signata ( Marsh snake).



well to me thats just a load of rubbish trying to justify something that just shouldnt be done in the first place!
the hemiaspis signata was the example i used in reguards to the thread I think steve1 is refering to, clearly if the guy caught one then he wasnt in WA and if he doesnt have any knowledge of common and easily identified local species to his area then again i stand by my comment that he doesnt have much experience!
if its so hard for you people in WA to relate the message I was putting forward in my post then here I can change it just for you 

"yes snake behavior is that variable 

but for something like a very common and easily identifiable snake such as a Demansia Psammophis if you dont know what it is then clearly you dont have much experience!"


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Snakelove I'm just trying to guage other peoples opinions on what constitutes enough experience when dealing with elapids, just because I can't Identify a species does that make me less capable of dealing with it?


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Farma I can identify D psammophis yet I have never seen one in the flesh and I'm unlikely to receive a callout to relocate one, hypothetically though with all my experience in dealing with other Elapids if I did come across on would I be equipped to deal with it.


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

-Peter said:


> I ask myself, do I have the right to deny others the same experiences that I had growing up with reptiles?


 

-Pete im in no way trying to deny others of the experiences I had growing up as a kid, but can I ask when you were a kid and you brought home a venomous snake that you didnt know what it was did everyone pat you on the back and tell you how brave you are or did they tell you you were stupid? because i still remember what they called me!
Im not denying these people of the right to do anything thats DEC's job but im not denying them the right to be told either!


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

well steve1 I dont know you so I wouldnt be able to say weather on not you would be equiped to deal with one!
the fact that you have stated you are on callout would suggest that you have some form of experience? 
but in saying that would you with the experience that you have class handling a shovel nosed snake and a gwardar in the same basket? they are both elapids


----------



## moosenoose (Nov 12, 2010)

I found this cute little jungle python in my backyard the other day...I know it's a little further south in Victoria for it...but hey, here it is!


----------



## Nighthawk (Nov 12, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> i found this cute little jungle python in my backyard the other day...i know it's a little further south in victoria for it...but hey, here it is!


 
lmao :lol:


----------



## jordo (Nov 12, 2010)

Kalashnikov said:


> Handling a snake which you can't I.D.
> Secondly I can't see any reason to handle a wild snake unless you are relocating it.


 
To ID it


----------



## moosenoose (Nov 12, 2010)

Kalashnikov said:


> How exactly does that help the thread? No doubt it was just a way for you to show off and show how experienced or brave you are. It's people who do stupid things like this that make it hard for people who do the right thing to keep up with the DECC's regulations put in place because of stupid acts.
> 
> If you want to free handle that's your choice, but posting pictures of it just reassures the community as a whole that reptile keepers are idiots


 
Only in your opinion (which by the way I couldn't give a toss about )


----------



## Brodie (Nov 12, 2010)

To the russian gun try hard..

Leave moosey alone, clearly, it is you who has no idea what you are talking about. He is a top bloke, and respected and admired by many. Just because he posts the photo, you automatically assume it is his hand? Perhaps, you shouldn't be so nasty when you have only been a member for a few days?

I mean, FFS, if you want to flame someone over something worthwhile.. How about me?


----------



## moosenoose (Nov 12, 2010)

Kalashnikov said:


> Just as long as you can beat your chest and inflate your ego.


 
With your help I'm succeeding :lol:


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 12, 2010)

Kalashnikov said:


> How exactly does that help the thread? No doubt it was just a way for you to show off and show how experienced or brave you are. It's people who do stupid things like this that make it hard for people who do the right thing to keep up with the DECC's regulations put in place because of stupid acts.
> 
> If you want to free handle that's your choice, but posting pictures of it just reassures the community as a whole that reptile keepers are idiots


 

Lol, I guess not handling a thread when you can't identify a poster would apply here, what a great coincidence! While I don't know him personally, Moose was simply adding a bit of levity to this thread. He knows what he's doing even if he has misidentified it as a Jungle.

You are safe mate, while not a jungle, it is a harmless baby darwin carpet, southern form. Realllllly southern form!

Cheers!


----------



## Brodie (Nov 12, 2010)

Not friends.. He has not even heard from me in, oh, four years? I was simply sticking up for him, because you sir, are an ****hole!

Flame me as much as you want, I agree I deserve it too.. You obviously know at least a little about me. But I can hazard a guess that you have no idea about moosenoose, or ninety-nine percent of the members on this site? Leave them alone!


----------



## moosenoose (Nov 12, 2010)

Plus I can't help it if Korbachov can't ID a simple jungle python ffs!


----------



## nathancl (Nov 12, 2010)

im with jordo on this one handleing a snake that you havent identified is sometimes necessary to identify them.... i thought that would be the obvious....


----------



## woody101 (Nov 12, 2010)

hey guys im the reason this whole thread started and yes i will admit i havnt done any handling course's but saying that i have grown up with snakes my whole life ive lived in the bush and ive been relocating snakes since i was 14years old started with pythons then moved to brown tree's black snakes and i have removed tigers and browns before with a hook and bag i havnt pinned a brown or a tiger although i do feel quite safe pinning a little 30cm snake i have bit of metal with rubber on one end that i use to pin i dont pin with extreme force just enough to get its head and the only reason i did pick it up was to get an ID on it and move it away from where me my brother and a mate were working. everyone has there own say about handling snakes you dont know what it is thats fair enough its there say but when people say to me you shouldnt free handle snakes you dont know what they are i wasnt free handling i had its head and i was fine with it. He/she wasnt agessive or anything it just sat there for about 1min while i got a pic then i moved it away.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Hey Woody your thread prompted me to start this thread though your not the sole reason and I'm not personally criticizing your actions, I was really hoping to start some good discussion on the reasons handling a species that hasn't been ID'd should or shouldn't be done, I personally have never been in a situation where Ive had to head an Elapid and although Ive seen it done many a time I still am not confident enough to do it myself, although I have dealt with Browns and Tigers I haven't yet come across large specimens of these, I believe I am well aware of my limitations. in saying that even the best of handlers sometimes come unstuck. 
I am interested to know how people have developed there knowledge and experience, after all even the experts had to grab a snake for their first time, where would we be if these people and their fascination for snakes was criticized at every turn, or should I say if they payed attention each time they were criticized.
I love snakes, I love vens and for reasons I can't properly explain I have been drawn to them and wanting to interact with them. I imagine there would be a few at least who understand where I'm coming from. I have a deep respect for what I am dealing with and understand that every time I interact with a venomous snake I am taking a big risk, but how else am I to learn and gain experience? 
If anyone else responds to this I would like to keep it constructive.
Farma, you say yes snake behaviour is that variable, (and I agree) but how about an example.
Can someone give an example of a snakes behaviour that could bring me unstuck If I couldn't ID it properly, again assuming that I am only experienced in dealing with Perth Elapids, say I was on a herping trip in the Eastern states somewhere, whats an example of a behavioral trait that could bring me unstuck should I not be unable to identify or misidentify a snake.

Steve 
PS. lets try and keep it civil and constructive


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 12, 2010)

I learnt by doing when i was young, like primary school age. But that got a couple of my good friends bitten when we tried catching snakes at school. I remember being really jealous that i didn't get to be in the paper or on TV when they did lol. Then i didn't do much for my highschool years and did a couple training courses when i got a job doing callouts in darwin.

An example i can think of where two similar snakes behave differently that could bring you unstuck is the difference between gwardars and black whips. Every single stationary or slow moving black whip i have come across has done a 'U-turn' back on itself when confronted, no matter the direction it is confronted. Which makes for easy hook and tailing. I thought i could transfer this information to gwardars... lol i couldn't, they have a much greater habit of standing their ground and bluffing (dunno if that's the right word) their way out of a confrontation.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

The "I learnt from doing as a kid" seems to be common among ven handlers, unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it I didn't have much to do with them as a young fella. It does sort of contradict telling people not to handle them but at the same time I understand that as adults we can't just say go ahead.
Would you say that Westerns tend to stand their ground more so than other Browns? Would they be on par with Easterns?


----------



## Echiopsis (Nov 12, 2010)

Keep your eyes open and know your limitations. Different species have different behavioural traits but its really of little consequence if your flicking it into a bag with a hook.
I learnt by catching the local Dugites and Tigers as a kid. I was a mad pinner to start with and slowly moved towards tailing over a few years. Experience does wonders but to me if your able to deal with highly mobile and large Elapids like Pseudonaja you should be able to deal with anything regardless of whether or not you can ID it at a glance. A bit of common sense and wariness goes a long way.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 12, 2010)

I've only caught westerns since knowing my **** from my elbow when it comes to elapids. I don't remember what the snakes were i used to catch as a kid.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 12, 2010)

Echiopsis said:


> Keep your eyes open and know your limitations. Different species have different behavioural traits but its really of little consequence if your flicking it into a bag with a hook.
> I learnt by catching the local Dugites and Tigers as a kid. I was a mad pinner to start with and slowly moved towards tailing over a few years. Experience does wonders but to me if your able to deal with highly mobile and large Elapids like Pseudonaja you should be able to deal with anything regardless of whether or not you can ID it at a glance. A bit of common sense and wariness goes a long way.



I know it's not an alapid but i almost came unstuck a while ago tailing a bockadam, it was nothing like the browns or whips lol.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I know it's not an alapid but i almost came unstuck a while ago tailing a bockadam, it was nothing like the browns or whips lol.


 
I'm interested please elaborate.


----------



## Echiopsis (Nov 12, 2010)

He nearly gave his mates piss pulling rights by getting bitten by a googly eyed mud slug :lol:


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Lol


----------



## maanz641 (Nov 12, 2010)

in my opinion if you feel you have the skill and experiance to handle an unidentified snake go for it and just treat it as deadly untill you know otherwise ,i have done it myself as many have ,he obviously is fasinated with reptiles like we all are and was trying to id something new to him so i realy think everyone should get of his back


----------



## craig (Nov 12, 2010)

G'day,
Re excepting to the rules of handling snake. The obvious example would be tailing adders after handling common stuff for a while but that would be a real amature mistake. An easier blunder would be tailing a roughie or any hops with out considering their climbing ability. It would come as a shock to some to see how quickly a they come towards their tails, in the case of roughies with their mouth agape, after getting a notch on your belt from tailing redbellies. Then again I only learnt this from teaching myself in the blinding lights of my highbeams hahaha I guess its a serious issue but you all gotta light the ****** up hahaha


----------



## punisherSIX (Nov 12, 2010)

I dunno, I don't feel high and mighty enough to tell people what to do with there hands (and lives!) But I guess the other side is should we feel concerned of the possible damage to the snake, especially the smaller elapids? 
Growing up in Victoria I introduced the idea of catching live Copperheads rather than chasing them with cricket bats to put in jars for school, I got scolded for it more than the kids killing them!


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Maanz good points But This thread isn't supposed to be about an individual hence the reason I started a new one rather than continue on with Woody's.
Craig tailing an Adder would be a very amateur mistake, however I was amazed how many times the thought crossed my mind during a recent photo session where the snake wasn't cooperating.
Punisher the possible damage to the snake is an important point to consider and one of the reasons people should be aware of their legal responsibilities when dealing with our native fauna.


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

these are not my pics (I got them from google images) but a simple example is the red naped snake a harmless and reluctant to bite species and the eastern brown which if mistaken could end your life












if you were experienced at handling large brown snakes and you misidentified a red naped snake for a brown then id say the outcome would not be too severe 

but reverse the situation and take some one with little experience other than the python they keep in an enclosure at home,
now to come across a eastern brown snake and mistake it for a red naped snake because of lack of experience, and to try to handle the animal as a harmless species is a very simple but dangerous mistake
and could possibly be your last


----------



## -Peter (Nov 12, 2010)

Farma said:


> -Pete im in no way trying to deny others of the experiences I had growing up as a kid, but can I ask when you were a kid and you brought home a venomous snake that you didnt know what it was did everyone pat you on the back and tell you how brave you are or did they tell you you were stupid? because i still remember what they called me!
> Im not denying these people of the right to do anything thats DEC's job but im not denying them the right to be told either!


 
I dont think my experience parallels. My parents thought all snakes were a threat so I didnt tell them about it. I had my copperhead for about 6 months before they found it. Then I had to take it to the zoo. I think the difference was that I knew what snakes were in our area but I did bring some things back with me from excursions which I would attempt to identify with my limited library and knowledge. Cogger's was printed till 1975 so an even then trying to ID a then Rhinocephalus species was not an easy job . A person who is going to go out and catch snakes will probably fast track their ID skills.
So what my original comment then bridges to is that people are going to pick up snakes with or with out experience if thats their bent and I am not going to judge them for it but there is little excuse these days to not have the literature available to check. Most of the books have colour photo's these days. The is also the Australian reptiles listing on Kingsnake though it hasn't been updated since 2007.


----------



## spiderdan (Nov 12, 2010)

Farma said:


> these are not my pics (I got them from google images) but a simple example is the red naped snake a harmless and reluctant to bite species and the eastern brown which if mistaken could end your life
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Good point the same is for hooded scaley foots. I have seen pics of a scaley foot and a young western brown and to the untrained eye you would thik they were the same thing.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2010)

It is a good point and my own motto is always be 110% sure, but this thread is more for people that have experience in dealing with dangerous elapids yet aren't able to identify a species for whatever reason, Are ID skills as important as handling skills?


----------



## percey39 (Nov 12, 2010)

I believe having experience with handling is far more important than ID. If you know how to handle ven's you know how to handle ven's. Yes all species are different in regards to how they act and display/strike but you do treat all of them the same.


----------



## da_donkey (Nov 13, 2010)

one would assume that the 2 go hand in hand, i know i studied and read a hell of alot of feild guides before i started my ven handeling and i still continue to read and look at different variations in colours and forms, no matter how repetitive the information is.

But in saying that nothing beats hands-on experience.

donks


----------



## SomeGuy (Nov 13, 2010)

If your treating all non pythons as venomous and can handle well enough, not being able to identify them is not make much difference, most are gonna pick up venomous snakes anyway regardless of whether they can ID them or not. Everybody's gotta start somewhere, grabbing something you can't identify is dangerous and careless, but how many herpers can say they have never done that  Just be careful!


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 13, 2010)

The issue i have with the 'You have to start somewhere' excuse is that it really isn't a good enough excuse in 2010. All states and territories (except the NT) have snake handling courses that are readily and affordable. 




SomeGuy said:


> If your treating all non pythons as venomous and can handle well enough, not being able to identify them is not make much difference, most are gonna pick up venomous snakes anyway regardless of whether they can ID them or not. Everybody's gotta start somewhere, grabbing something you can't identify is dangerous and careless, but how many herpers can say they have never done that  Just be careful!


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 13, 2010)

steve1 said:


> I'm interested please elaborate.


 
They literally are a slow moving mud slug but they've traded off their speed for strength. Which meant it reasonably slowly twisted back on itself with it's mouth agape heading straight for my thumb lol! 



Echiopsis said:


> He nearly gave his mates piss pulling rights by getting bitten by a googly eyed mud slug :lol:



HA! That definately would have been the worst part!


----------



## JasonL (Nov 13, 2010)

At the end of the day it is up to the person who is about to play with the snake as to what they should do, really all you should have extensive knowledge about is the risks involved, if the snake could possibly kill you, and how easily things can go wrong if you stuff up.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Nov 13, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> The issue i have with the 'You have to start somewhere' excuse is that it really isn't a good enough excuse in 2010. All states and territories (except the NT) have snake handling courses that are readily and affordable.



It's not so much an excuse and it still stands that you do have to start somewhere A handling course was the way I had my my first contact with vens. I went into the course expecting to come out with a fairly good idea on how to deal with snakes in a callout situation and although I still believe that it was good value and informative I soon realized it was just a very small step into the world of venomous snake handling. I think I learned more on my first callout than I did at the course, though without the course I would not have had the confidence to deal with situation in the first place.

I think if your going to handle vens and you get bit it doesn't matter how experienced you are a lot of people are going to call you an idiot for handling it in the first place.


----------

