# Female woma is about to drop a clutch ;)



## benjamind2010 (Oct 15, 2014)

But there seems to be just one small problem. She's pushing underneath the carpet (it came on a roll and is a lot like astroturf) that I laid down into her tub so that the clutch wouldn't glue itself to the floor of her tub.

The tub isn't really glossy at all, it's more of a low sheen tub with a satiny finish, and it's made from HDPE I think. But it's still plastic and I'm told plastic and eggs often bond.

I am a bit concerned that if the eggs stick to the tub I'll get hosed and just end up losing the clutch, since it'll most likely be laid at the warm end of the tub.

Is there anything that I can do to help avoid this risk?

I have an incubator set up, with a good digital thermostat that keeps the air and substrate inside firmly between 29 and 31 degrees. with perlite with a small amount of water mixed to provide some very slight moisture as I believe woma eggs can succumb to excessive moisture over time. Trouble is, if the eggs stick to the tub I'm afraid they'll be stuck there and she'll have to incubate them the natural way...but I'm just concerned about the heat.

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Yep. She's so stubborn. I laid it down in a different way, and she just put herself under the carpet. It was stuff from bunnings, with a thin rubbery back, and looked like astroturf but only much finer. 14$ wasted. Next time I'll have to create a custom built laying box with the stuff literally weighed down with heavy bricks. She's very determined to have her way, so it looks like I might lose the eggs this time around - unless the humidity and temps are kept within a narrow margin I can't see her incubating them herself successfully - but I should never underestimate a female woma, if she's smart enough to lift up the entire tub floor of carpet and crawl underneath it, she should be good enough to incubate them on her own.

That is, of course, if they are laid and I can't get to them quick enough. I know she's about to drop, she has a bulge right near her vent, so it's either gotta be tonight/early morning or night tomorrow or early Friday morning. There's no way she'll be holding past Friday.

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Ok, I hear that it is possible to separate them from the tub floor, but I'm still concerned with possible adhesions. Maybe the eggs won't stick to the floor of the tub and I'll be able to get them to the incubator easily.

I'm only concerned because I hear womas and BHPs tend to spread a small area of the floor of any substrate and drop their clutches in the cleared area.


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## Beans (Oct 15, 2014)

An even easier way. Is to get some soft or something, paper towel even. get a smaller tub with a lid and cut a hole in the side for a dark laybox. Put that in there


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 16, 2014)

Thanks for the advice, she hasn't dropped yet. I bet she'll drop within the next 2 days.


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## creaturesofhabit (Oct 16, 2014)

Dosnt matter you put in there she is going yo push it up the sides of the box..never bred woma but with all my bhp I use a Styrofoam box with sphagnum moss inside I've trialed damp newspaper but the moss seemed liked better. They will push it up the sides and lay eggs in the middle on the floor of the tub..never had any issues with the eggs sticking to the ground. In my opinion plastic tubs are not ideal lay boxes as the hole that you cut in the side creates and thin sharp edge that can damage belly scales as the female will be in and out of the box many times before she decides it's time to drop eggs


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 16, 2014)

Thanks for whoever suggested a styrofoam box. I've taken out the old plastic laying box, and replaced it with a styrofoam box that I had cut off the taller parts so that it fits flush with the top of the tub.

It worked a treat. She's now cuddled up in that box. Before I used the box I washed it, then sprayed it with a dilute F10 mix so to avoid any mould, etc that may have come from any fruits that were being held in the box prior to my picking it up from the fruit store.

Everything looks set now, so it should be any day that she drops her clutch, I thought she was going to drop during the week, but it could be as far as into the weekend...fingers crossed. What I can say for sure is that a clutch is imminent. Hope they will be good eggs.


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## creaturesofhabit (Oct 16, 2014)

I should proof read my posts before I submit them..my last post was missing a few words.
The only problem with getting a box from a fruit shop is the risk of pesticides. ..aquariums are better for scoring free boxes from


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## Beans (Oct 17, 2014)

creaturesofhabit said:


> Dosnt matter you put in there she is going yo push it up the sides of the box..never bred woma but with all my bhp I use a Styrofoam box with sphagnum moss inside I've trialed damp newspaper but the moss seemed liked better. They will push it up the sides and lay eggs in the middle on the floor of the tub..never had any issues with the eggs sticking to the ground. In my opinion plastic tubs are not ideal lay boxes as the hole that you cut in the side creates and thin sharp edge that can damage belly scales as the female will be in and out of the box many times before she decides it's time to drop eggs




Theres an easy fix for that. Get a lighter a run the flame over the sharp edges. It rounds them off. Then just wash the box and it's good to go. Styrofoam boxes would work too though.

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benjamind2010 said:


> Thanks for whoever suggested a styrofoam box. I've taken out the old plastic laying box, and replaced it with a styrofoam box that I had cut off the taller parts so that it fits flush with the top of the tub.
> 
> It worked a treat. She's now cuddled up in that box. Before I used the box I washed it, then sprayed it with a dilute F10 mix so to avoid any mould, etc that may have come from any fruits that were being held in the box prior to my picking it up from the fruit store.
> 
> Everything looks set now, so it should be any day that she drops her clutch, I thought she was going to drop during the week, but it could be as far as into the weekend...fingers crossed. What I can say for sure is that a clutch is imminent. Hope they will be good eggs.




Good luck


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 17, 2014)

Good news. She dropped a clutch and it was a decent one for her very first breeding. I won't go into any further details, but here is the booty:

7 eggs


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## princessparrot (Oct 17, 2014)

I really want to try breeding my girl but mum isn't to keen...


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 17, 2014)

Convince your mum that breeding snakes will allow you to get some pocket money. Tell her it's not so bad, that all involved is incubating some eggs and selling the hatchlings. You could offer her a cut of any money you make from selling the hatchlings. It should be easy to do


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## Beans (Oct 17, 2014)

I think she would be more worried about a maybe not being able to sell them. 

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## Spongy (Oct 17, 2014)

My missus not happy that I have about another 70 Wheatbelt hatchies on the way. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. Lol


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 17, 2014)

Beans said:


> I think she would be more worried about a maybe not being able to sell them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk



Really? You want to look at my RHD womas. Believe me, they will be very very sellable considering the lineage my hatchlings will be coming from. Photos are in my image gallery.

I'm unsure about princessparrot's womas, depending on quality of the parents, the offspring could fetch good prices.

I'll be pricing mine around $250, provided they are healthy.


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## princessparrot (Oct 17, 2014)

My girl is an Uluru woma.
would it be safe to leave the eggs in her care or do I need to remove and incubate them myself?


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 17, 2014)

It depends on the temperature and humidity. If the eggs are placed right on hot end where the heat mat is underneath the enclosure, you should never leave the eggs in there, as the heat mat will fry the eggs and you'll lose them.

That's the biggest fear by far when dealing with snake eggs. They should never, ever, be left in an enclosure where the temperature cannot be reasonably expected to stay below the maximum recommended temperature, which would be about 33 degrees. If it never gets above 33, it might be safe, but even then I wouldn't count on it.

You really need an incubator set up.


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## GeckoJosh (Oct 17, 2014)

Womas are hard to sell atm, I know someone who is struggling to move a breeding pair of Tanamis for 480 with free freight included Aus wide


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 18, 2014)

Temps in the incubator went down to only 27 degrees during the middle of the night/very early morning. But they're 31 degrees during the day.

Is there anything I can do to boot up the temps at night or should I just let the ebbs and flows take their course? I know the weather is going to get warmer during the nights, so hopefully this should become less of an issue as the summer approaches.


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## Planky (Oct 18, 2014)

How's your inc set up ? Lights or heat cord


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 18, 2014)

Mine is a heat cord. It's a Willow brand Esky 26L. 

The heat cord was basically fixed around the bottom perimeter of the Esky, and about 6 inches of perlite was placed on top of that. The thermostat probe was placed right where the eggs would be placed.

Before putting the perlite in I added a small amount of water to it, about 50mL, basically by spraying it with a mist bottle. I also had a tiny bit of F10 in the mist bottle to prevent any harmful bacteria from forming.

I've seen reports where people just used plain perlite without any water added and the womas hatched fine. Since the Esky is almost completely sealed (there is a tiny gap where the heat cord goes in through a hold I made on the base of the lid) I can't see how anything could go wrong.

But I am doing my due diligence, and will ensure that everything goes the way I would want.

I look at everything as a learning experience. Hopefully there were no mistakes made and everything works out and they hatch.


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## Beans (Oct 18, 2014)

Just remember that s\while shes wrapped around them, she will be transferring alot of her heat into them

She will also be flexing her muscles alot, looks like a shiver to keep them warm. As long as they are not directly on the heat mat they should be okay.


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 20, 2014)

I have a feeling that these eggs just weren't meant to be. I do remember that when I went to collect her eggs, they were all pushed to the sides of her nest box, with her in the middle. I remember reading information written by a prominent herper that this is definitely not a good sign.

However, I figured they looked healthy, so I'm only guessing.

This afternoon when doing my once-every-2-days 30 second spot check I noticed some mold on a couple of the eggs. It wasn't much, but it was enough to worry me, so I dusted some Tinea powder on all of them just as a precaution. The funny thing is that they look dimpled...already...which again, is not a good sign this early in the piece.

So I guess time will tell, but I think that clutch might have had something wrong with it, well, maybe half the eggs were no good, so I'll just wait and see what comes of it. Fingers crossed. It looks like it'll be Russian Roulette. I put it on all on the red and hope that it when it stops spinning it's on the red.

I'd give it a 50/50 chance from here on in.

Anyway, just a heads up. Feeling a bit dejected about a possible bad clutch...but otherwise I'm doing fine.


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## Beans (Oct 20, 2014)

Normally when a snake pushes an egg out its a slug. Perhaps they're all slugs : /


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 20, 2014)

The funny thing is they're white and pretty healthy looking slugs, if they are indeed slugs 

Aside from the slight indentations and that bit of mold on a couple of them, they all look reasonably healthy. But the appearance of mold has me wondering if those eggs were bad from the start.
Perhaps they were. Only time will tell how they turn out. I've heard of people experiencing mold on eggs even in the early stages and still ending up with a healthy hatchling, so I will most certainly not give up on them. I will just wait and see how they turn out. If they go bad, well, so be it.

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I'm incubating them using the over-water method, but instead of using just water, it's perlite that has been mixed with some water. Because the heat cord is on the bottom of the incubator, this should ensure that enough humidity is maintained to keep the eggs in the right condition.


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## creaturesofhabit (Oct 20, 2014)

@ beans snakes do lay infertile eggs that look exactly the same as normal( fertile eggs) and will also lay slugs. ..I'm not trying to be rude and singling you out but just interested to know what species you breed?


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## Beans (Oct 20, 2014)

I don't breed and never have bred snakes. 

Just info from various books, youtube etc. Animals all over the animal kingdom do it. If theres a retarded bird chick, the mum chucks it out of the nest. Lions do it, dogs do it etc. 

And snakes do it too. If the snake knows its not fertile she will kick it out of the nest because she doesn't want to waste energy trying to incubate it.

I know you aren't trying to be rude or anything its okay xD. Just saying that it's possibly why she pushed most of them away, however if it is her first time laying maybe she doesn't know what shes doing.

Incubate them anyway and after a few weeks shine a flashlight on them and see if you can see any veins etc through the shell.


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 26, 2014)

Well things are a bit strange. After she laid her eggs and I moved them to the incubator she was quite restless. Ok this is normal.

After I cleaned her tub out and scented the tub with a mild nontoxic perfume to remove the egg smell she calmed down and then ate one quail on Monday then ate another quail on Wednesday. Ok that seems normal.

Thursday after work I visited a relatives and stayed for the night. On Friday morning when I came home I noticed she was very restless, at times seemingly even desperate. Pacing like crazy and even nearly tipping over her hide box. 
I cleaned out her tub, gave her a good rub down with warm soapy water to get rid of any egg smell that may have been there and then put more perfume in her tub to "re-scent" it so that she thinks there are no eggs.

But this time I think it has failed. She is still restless. It's almost like she just doesn't want to give up. I also noted that she would intermittently "wheeze" that I really think is just a very strong and angry hissing sound because I examined her mouth and there is nothing wrong and her tongue is fine and works perfectly.

Is there anything I'm doing wrong? She ate 2 quails so I know she does not have a respiratory problem otherwise she would not have eaten those quails.

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## benjamind2010 (Oct 26, 2014)

And she was making those funny hissing/wheezing noises the day after I removed her eggs - and she ate 2 meals since then...but now she's gone back to that strange behavior. I find it hard to undrrstand what could have gone wrong. Her temps are fine...she has clean water...I'm doing all I can do.

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## Beans (Oct 26, 2014)

I have absolutely no clue. I hope someone sees soon and can help you  maybe she's being maternal? Even though a lot of snakes aren't I dunno 

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## Chris1 (Oct 26, 2014)

Maybe she doesn't like the perfume?

Obviously removing the egg smell (washing her and cleaning her tub) is important, but Ive never heard of 're-scenting with perfume'


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## Beans (Oct 26, 2014)

Yeah that could do it. Maybe try vinegar and water solution instead? 

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## benjamind2010 (Oct 26, 2014)

The good news is that 2 or 3 of her eggs look perfect, the not so good news is that the rest have marked depressions in them. The picture I took will show you more clearly what I mean.







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## Beans (Oct 27, 2014)

Eh. Keep em cooking. See how it goes. 

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## benjamind2010 (Oct 27, 2014)

She's still carrying on. Hasn't settled down as of yet. Still making those stressed hissing noises. From observation I see no signs of any RI, so for the moment I'm ruling that out.
I am unsure of where to go from here. If she doesn't improve within a few days I will be getting someone to look at her, as it could really be something a lot more serious. There is this psychological phenomenon where someone thinks that it's not nearly as bad as it really is, the term for it is *normalcy bias*.

Maybe such bias is getting the better of me and lulling me into a false sense of hope. I sure as hell am not going to lose a prized snake who just laid a clutch of eggs to normalcy bias.

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She'll be visiting the vets soon. The stressed hissing noises, although it was apparent she didn't have any signs of a RI when I examined her mouth (RI usually has telltale signs of inflamed mouth and lots of mucous with the tongue not being able to fork, etc), she still makes funny breathing noises intermittently. So I'll lean on the side of precaution and get her examined by a professional. I really don't want anything to happen to her, she's a prized woma and she just put down a clutch that I really want to hatch so that her line can be carried through with the really nice male that I bred her with. She has wider bands, and the male has thinner bands. Both have beautiful deep and rich colors...but losing ANY animal would be heartbreaking.

My male 6yo blonde spotted isn't terribly interested in the quail I offered him, I dunno what's wrong with him. He hasn't touch anything since I got him in April. I know he was probably being cooled down around the time I got him, I think most mature adult males around that time would be cooled if the keeper things they'll be used for breeding purposes. 

I gave the quail to her, and guess what? She's smashing it. So, at least she's eating...but that doesn't mean she isn't sick. So a vet visit is still going to happen...Hell, I might get the vet to take a look at the blonde spotted as well while we're at it, give his mouth a good looking at, as a prophylactic measure just in case...because you'd think he would be eating by now, it's like a few days next to November. The temps are OK, nothing great but nothing that would put him off his food. Something like 32 at the warm end, and 27 at the cool end. Maybe I'll bump up the temps a couple of degrees and see if that helps bring his appetite to where it should be.


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## benjamind2010 (Nov 4, 2014)

The two eggs on the bottom left of that photo developed a bit of mould, a friend of mine was visiting when I decided to check on the eggs. A good thing I did. We quickly nipped it in the bud with tinea powder. Hopefully the eggs will still be vital. Fingers crossed. In all seriousness it really didn't look all that bad. There was a blotch of mould about the size of a 5 cent piece on one of those eggs.

Female woma was checked over by the vet. Female RSP had a check over as well since she refused a feed - something she's never done before. Nothing wrong with the RSP. Nothing seriously wrong with the female woma either, no signs of any major respiratory infection, only a minor infection, she looks intact, although a little weak - most likely from her egg laying. I'll come clean, she was really too small to be breeding. She was only about 1.7kg when I put the male over her, and she lost quite a deal of weight through her breeding, she should have been 2.5kg at least. I later learned that females are actually larger than males. Won't do that again. Lesson learned. Treatment plan is simply raising her temps to 36 degrees in her hot spot and observe her for the next 2 or 3 weeks, and feed her smaller food sizes, but more frequently. Piece of cake.

6yo spotted also smashed a 65g quail last night.


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## GeckoJosh (Nov 8, 2014)

I didnt know you used perfume, I think that may have beensome of the cause of her lack of health, that, the low temps and her being undersized.
For future breeding you really dont need to go overboard with getting rid of hte egg scent, personally I clean the enclosure then wipe mine down with non-scented baby wipes (many highly experienced breeders would consider that over board), many experienced breeders I know will just remove the lay box and just leave her a week and then offer food - works for them.


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## benjamind2010 (Nov 10, 2014)

Josh, the perfume was non-toxic and I only really put a tiny amount where the eggs were. That is all. There was no breathing in from the snake. The snake was out of the enclosure when I put the perfume in there. It was also well hosed down and F10'd so there was not a trace of anything left. I never left the perfume actually in there, just to eliminate the initial scent.

Those two really moldy eggs. Both were confirmed dead this morning. One was absolutely rotten inside, all pussy and greyish brown, looked like sludge, the embryo had broken up and disintegrated. That's where most of the smell came from and it was so bad it nearly knocked me over. The embryo in the other egg was starting to go rotten, the blood vessels were disintegrated, the embryo was a grey color and was starting to stink. The eggs were taken out to the garbage tip with today's disposal truck...I didn't take any pics, but I can ascertain they were both well and truly dead.

I must admit I still have some residual nausea from this morning's egg tragedy. Seriously, that was one of the most putrid smells I've ever come across. It was worse than the dead cat my dad found in a drain back in 1989, it was full of maggots, it died because it got stuck in a drain during a storm and drowned, we didn't find the cat until about 6 days later. The smell of whatever was inside this egg was worse than that. Incredibly vile.


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## Beans (Nov 10, 2014)

That's why you should candle the eggs. You can usually tell if it's alive or not from that. 

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## Maximum (Nov 10, 2014)

Good luck with the rest of the clutch - I've been watching with interest. I'd love to have a go at breeding down the track and it's good to see some of the things to look out for.


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## benjamind2010 (Nov 10, 2014)

Beans said:


> That's why you should candle the eggs. You can usually tell if it's alive or not from that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk



Both eggs were candled. I saw no veins in the really bad egg, and could not see any defined veins in the other one. Both stunk, and that is as sure a sign as anything.

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Maximum said:


> Good luck with the rest of the clutch - I've been watching with interest. I'd love to have a go at breeding down the track and it's good to see some of the things to look out for.



Mold is a big problem with incubating eggs. My incubator had a design flaw, and that has since been rectified. However, I lost 2 eggs from that mistake, so hopefully next year or the year after, I will be fortunate enough to get a 100% hatch rate.

But the remaining 6 eggs. One looks quite small, and I don't hold as much hope for that one, however, I think the other 5 will be just fine.

Que sera sera...


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## Ramsayi (Nov 10, 2014)

benjamind2010 said:


> Seriously, that was one of the most putrid smells I've ever come across.



The worst smell when it comes to reptiles are regurges without doubt.




benjamind2010 said:


> Mold is a big problem with incubating eggs



Mould is a problem because of bad eggs.Healthy eggs don't get mouldy.


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## benjamind2010 (Nov 10, 2014)

Ramsayi said:


> Mould is a problem because of bad eggs.Healthy eggs don't get mouldy.



That is true. I spoke to a keeper and they said the same thing. He said if they develop mould it indicates the egg is not in good shape, for whatever reason, whether that is genetic (infertile, defective), or environmental (condensation, too hot or cold, too humid).

The eggs might have gone bad because condensation had definitely dripped on those particular eggs. I since rectified that problem and there is no more condensation dripping on any eggs, but it was too late for those particular eggs and unfortunately they could not be saved.

I am pretty sure the rest will hatch without any trouble. Fingers crossed.


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## benjamind2010 (Nov 25, 2014)

Well, it's now a good bit past the half way point. Counting down from the 17th October, that would be a few days off 6 weeks. 

At the 8 week mark I would be expecting them to hatch over the following week or so beyond that.

One of the eggs looks like it has really caved in, it was the smallest egg, and was probably not destined to hatch. We'll wait and see about that one.
The rest of them look good at this stage.


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## FriendlyHerpGuy (Nov 25, 2014)

I dropped a clutch, once. 

Keep us updated, hope the rest go well!


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## benjamind2010 (Dec 16, 2014)

16th December...they were laid on the 17th October...

I should see the hatchlings pipping at any moment now. It's day 60.

By Friday at the latest...that would be day 63...which is a long time for woma eggs considering they normally hatch between 55 and 60 days.


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## shano (Dec 16, 2014)

Fingers crossed for you all is ok, would love to see some piccies when they show their faces.


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## benjamind2010 (Dec 20, 2014)

They've all hatched and in their own tubs. I can't believe how successful this first attempt at hatching womas has been.

I'm very happy with what I have produced. Each of them have their own personalities...


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## wokka (Dec 20, 2014)

Congratulations Ben, I thought you would have worried them to death but your close attention paid off!


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 7, 2015)

All up 5 hatched. The smallest egg never came to anything. All 5 were healthy.


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