# Beginner Turtle Questions



## Silas Marsh (Aug 18, 2020)

So, I'm looking at keeping a turtle(s) and have been trying to do as much research as possible, which has lead me here with a few questions I'm hoping some experienced people may be able to help with;

I've read that they are solitary and shouldn't be kept with other ELN turtles, but I've also read that they should be kept in groups of 4 but not pairs. Does anyone know the reasoning behind these numbers?
I have a large compost worm farm, do these need to be "treated" in anyway before being fed to the turtles?
Should they be fed pellets at all, or are they to be totally avoided?
Is it OK to feed them foods such as fresh mince, dead (fresh) fish etc?

I will be starting with a small 60x60 tank but then moving to a large 1.8m tank in 12 to 18 months. The large tank would be in a room that can get to around 30 degrees in Summer and down to about 15 degrees in winter. Would this area be OK or would the temperature variations be too much? The water will of course be heated.
I've also read that natural light on the tank should be kept to a minimum, but other sources say that Natural light is a benefit, not too sure what the rule is on this?

Thanks for any help you can provide, there is a lot of information about and a lot of it seems to be contradictory.


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## Shaggers89 (Aug 18, 2020)

@Flaviemys purvisi would probably be one of your best bets


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## ralazal (Aug 18, 2020)

Hi, welcome to the forum.

1. Turtles are generally solitary. They don't get lonely or suffer from living alone in a tank or pond. Generally housing juveniles together is problem free, although you need to watch for aggressive behaviour particularly when feeding. As adults they are best housed on their own. Obviously the bigger the enclosure, the less behavioral problems you normally see if more than one is housed together as adults. Long story short, if you are considering getting just one you won't have issues.

2. Worms are great food for ELN's. As long as you are not using chemicals around the compost, you should be fine. You can use pellets sparingly if they are a good brand with suitable amounts of particularly vitamin d3 and calcium. I use exo terra aquatic turtle floating pellets and hikari cichlid gold fish pellets. It's worth repeating though, feed them these once a week max.

I would avoid using red meat. Very lean meat such as roo meat can be fed sparingly, but they get little to no nutritional benefit, so I would give it a miss altogether. Any meat that is not super lean is bad for their health. Fish is good. Make sure it is freshwater fish, or soak any saltwater flesh for at least an hour or two as salt can cause serious issues. Just try to give them as varied a diet as possible. Good foods include small feeder fish, earthworms, blackworms, woodies, crickets, freshwater crustaceans and molluscs, even flies and moths. You could also use frozen mysis or brine shrimp, very occasionally blood worm, but avoid most of the frozen turtle dinners you see in pet shops. There are some good ones, but definitely check the ingredients. I would recommend also, only feed your juvenile turtles 2-3 times per week and as adults 1-2 times per week and a portion size of around the size of their head. Some people feed more regularly but be careful not to over feed them, and don't fall for their begging, they would eat 6 times a day if you let them!

3. The sizes you have there are fine. I personally wouldn't have multiple turtles as adults even in a 6 ft tank, but some do. Those temps are fine as well, although if you are able to keep the water temp below 28C, you should. I would definitely avoid sunlight on the tank, just because you will probably get more heat than is ideal, and the glass and even the water will filter out any beneficial UV light from the sun. For those temps, I would not be using a heater at all for an ELN. I wouldn't start worrying about water temps until you see less than 12-14C. Turtles do need UVA and UVB to maintain healthy growth. You will need to provide a heated basking spot(at least 35-40C, 2-3 hours in the morning and afternoon) during the day to give the turtle a chance to dry the shell, and it is recommended to use a UV light of some kind on the basking spot. You can get away with not using UV light if you supplement their diet with the correct ratios of vitamin d3 and calcium, but using the UV light would be the best option as a beginner.

Lastly, one of the most important and overlooked things is water quality. You want to have a slightly alkaline pH(7.5-8, best achieved by using something like calcium carbonate or calgrit mixed with river sand as a substrate, or putting a mesh bag of it in the filtration system. This will also help your hardness levels), a salinity of around 0.5%(1 cup of sea salt per 50 litres), and hopefully fully cycled before you add any turtles. That means the beneficial bacteria has been established to deal with ammonia and nitrites(both should be undetectable), and do partial water changes to keep nitrates below 40ppm(lower the better). You will also want to monitor the general hardness (GH, should be 180-200ppm), and carbonate hardness(KH, should be around 80ppm).


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 18, 2020)

Hi there. It is recommended to keep turtles solitary, on their own OR in a group of a minimum of 4 or more... never 2 or 3. The reason for this I will explain now... 
Let's say you have 2 turtles, we'll call them turtle A & Turtle B. Soon after introducing them to their tank, it'll seem like oh wow they're best friends, growing up together, they're going to be inseparable... not so... very quickly a pecking order will be established, who is "in charge" whether it be A or B and the other will be relentlessly harassed and attacked until it is seriously injured or killed. It can be very subtle at first, you'll quickly observe who is the dominant one as it will quickly grow larger than the other. Now let's say you have 3 turtles, turtle A, B and C. Let's say turtle A is dominant over turtle B, turtle C is impartial but once turtle B starts getting attacked by turtle A, turtle C will join in and they'll both partake in removing the "weakest link" which them leaves you with 2 turtles a d the process will repeat. 

Now if you have 4 turtles (the minimum recommended) Turtle A, B, C and D.... it is far too difficult for Turtle A to dominate 3 others, if Turtle A is dominant over turtle B, B could be dominant over C who is in turn dominant over D who has it over turtle A... it becomes far too complicated for a turtle to work out and they all will just peacefully coexist together. 4 or more is always the best however you certainly need adequate space to pull this off. You can't cram 4+ turtles into a 2-3 ft tank and think all will be well... 

turtles are very solitary by nature, the only times you really observe them congregating together is in the breeding season (for obvious reasons) and when they're basking and the reason for this is many eyes are better then just your own 2 when it comes to spotting potential predators. Turtles will bask in groups and position themselves facing in all directions. As soon as one turtle bolts for the water, they all instinctively follow. 


[doublepost=1597733980,1597733112][/doublepost]ELN are a predatory ambush species that are strictly carnivorous/insectivorous, they will not accept dead or commercially made artificial turtle food like pellets or frozen dinners. They should be fed whole live prey items, earthworms, compost worms, silkworms, soldier fly larvae, wood roaches, white moths, whole live feeder fish, whole live shrimps and whole live yabbbies (claws removed). I've been keeping and breeding ELN for many years, when they're newly hatched I feed them on live mosquito larvae and newly emerged white baby wood roaches.
[doublepost=1597734406][/doublepost]


ralazal said:


> You can get away with not using UV light if you supplement their diet with the correct ratios of vitamin d3 a


This is not true, captive turtles kept indoors NEED UV lighting, both natural and artificial. If using the highest Quality artificial UV lighting available, like mercury vapour lamps, the turtles still need to be taken outside for exposure to natural sunlight for 20 minutes 3-5 times / week.


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## Silas Marsh (Aug 18, 2020)

Thanks ralazal & Flaviemys, those answers have cleared up a lot of my confusion. 

Another question I had was regarding substrate, is washed river sand suitable? This is fine (about 2mm or less) sand that comes from quarries and is sold through landscape suppliers, if suitable would it need to be treated in any way before being added? to a tank? Or woould round river pebbles be better, these range is size from 10mm to 20mm?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 18, 2020)

ELN are a temperate species, do not let the water temp exceed 24°C. 20 - 24° is certainly where they're happiest.
[doublepost=1597734722,1597734649][/doublepost]


Silas Marsh said:


> Thanks ralazal & Flaviemys, those answers have cleared up a lot of my confusion.
> 
> Another question I had was regarding substrate, is washed river sand suitable? This is fine (about 2mm or less) sand that comes from quarries and is sold through landscape suppliers, if suitable would it need to be treated in any way before being added? to a tank? Or woould round river pebbles be better, these range is size from 10mm to 20mm?


Washed river sand is perfect, mixed with calgrit to a depth of no more than 3cm. No rocks, gravel, pebbles or stones should ever be placed in a turtle's aquarium.
[doublepost=1597734833][/doublepost]Natural light hitting your turtle tank will cause algae... and lots of it and have no benefit whatsoever to your turtle as UVB doesn't penetrate either glass or water.


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## ralazal (Aug 18, 2020)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> This is not true, captive turtles kept indoors NEED UV lighting, both natural and artificial. If using the highest Quality artificial UV lighting available, like mercury vapour lamps, the turtles still need to be taken outside for exposure to natural sunlight for 20 minutes 3-5 times / week.


That is certainly good advise and I would have no problem with doing that. I know it might seem controversial to you, but there are prominent ELN keepers who do not use artificial UV light at all, and supplement the diet with vitamin d3 and calcium. You may not agree, and it could be considered controversial, but artificial UV is somewhat over-rated with reptiles in general. As I said though, as a beginner, you would do well taking this advise and it works well. 



Silas Marsh said:


> Thanks ralazal & Flaviemys, those answers have cleared up a lot of my confusion.
> 
> Another question I had was regarding substrate, is washed river sand suitable? This is fine (about 2mm or less) sand that comes from quarries and is sold through landscape suppliers, if suitable would it need to be treated in any way before being added? to a tank? Or woould round river pebbles be better, these range is size from 10mm to 20mm?


You can get away with very smooth, non abrasive river pebbles(make sure they are far too big to swallow) and not have any problems. I would strongly recommend not using them though because you can damage the plastron if you get it wrong. River sand is a great choice mixed with something like calgrit as mentioned. Shell grit is not recommended, unless pulverized or added to the filter compartment.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 18, 2020)

ralazal said:


> there are prominent ELN keepers who do not use artificial UV light at all, and supplement the diet with vitamin d3 and calcium


Yeah it's called cutting corners... just like some people raise their kids vegan and they "seem ok" reality is they're not I promise you they won't live for 100 years like they're supposed to with "supplements"

UVB lighting may well have been shown controversial for pythons and snakes bit not for aquatic turtles.

River stones are much harder than a turtle's shell with is dermal bone covered in scutes made of keratin. For one they WILL damage your turtle's shell period, 2 they will cause pressure sores on the turtle's limbs, 3. They wreak havoc with water chemistry by trapping detritus and 4. They prevent a turtle from exhibiting normal natural behaviour, burying themselves completely in sand to hide/sleep.. NEVER use any rocks, stones, gravel or pebbles in a turtle's aquarium. Only ever use sand, calgrit (which is fully digestible if swallowed unlike gravel) and driftwood for decor. Turtles rub their carapace on wood to initiate shedding, same behaviour a snake exhibits... a snake's skin in pliable, a turtle's shell isn't... grab a rock and vigorously rub your fingernails with it all day... show me how they look at the end of the day. Rocks, any/all of them have no place in a turtle tank.


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## ralazal (Aug 18, 2020)

@Silas Marsh 

As you can see there are varied approaches to reptile husbandry, and a lot of "experts" disagree with how to go about it correctly. Just use your common sense and sift out the garbage you will read you'll be fine.

@Flaviemys purvisi 

UV light, as you know, helps in the production of vitamin d. Vitamin d is essential for healthy growth. It is just wild speculation that what others do successfully doesn't work. Just as it is wild speculation that a vegan diet is detrimental to humans. As I said, your approach works. It is not the only approach that works.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 18, 2020)

ralazal said:


> @Silas Marsh
> 
> As you can see there are varied approaches to reptile husbandry, and a lot of "experts" disagree with how to go about it correctly. Just use your common sense and sift out the garbage you will read you'll be fine.
> 
> ...


If you want a turtle that's going to suffer deformity, calcium deficiency syndrome, soft shell and metabolic bone disease, by all means don't use UVB lighting. Wild turtles have a far better diet that any captive kept specimens and guess what, THEY ALL BASK DAILY! Follow nature, 300 million years of evolution says you're wrong, not just me. Get the lights on and do what's best for your turtle or keep a goldfish instead.


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## Silas Marsh (Aug 18, 2020)

This seems to be the issue I'm encountering with my research, there is a lot if conflucting information from experienced keeoers. I was surprised by the river pebble responses, a lot of the setuoz I see seem to have large stones in them!

Thanks for the replies giving multiple points of view though, it's been very informative.


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## ralazal (Aug 18, 2020)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Yeah it's called cutting corners... just like some people raise their kids vegan and they "seem ok" reality is they're not I promise you they won't live for 100 years like they're supposed to with "supplements"


So....you must be at least what? 110, 120 years old to be able to promise that?



Flaviemys purvisi said:


> If you want a turtle that's going to suffer deformity, calcium deficiency syndrome, soft shell and metabolic bone disease, by all means don't use UVB lighting. Wild turtles have a far better diet that any captive kept specimens and guess what, THEY ALL BASK DAILY! Follow nature, 300 million years of evolution says you're wrong, not just me. Get the lights on and do what's best for your turtle or keep a goldfish instead.


For full disclosure, I use UV lights. However I have observed 15+ year old ELN's that have not spent a minute under an artificial UV light that have beautiful hard shells and show no sign of any illness or deficiency. The keepers who I spoke to did indeed use UV lights for several years in the beginning but concluded that they do not work. Their words. But let's stop debating pointless stuff again shall we? You are not going to magically remove my knowledge and observations, and I'm not going to convince you that your narrow approach is exclusive.


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## Rob (Aug 18, 2020)

ralazal said:


> But let's stop debating pointless stuff again shall we?



Yes Guys, please do. I think both of you have put forward enough useful information to suffice OP. This constant arguing achieves nothing other than to derail another thread.


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