# Venomous Exotics in Australia



## toxinologist (Jun 3, 2004)

Hi folks,

I've just spent the last couple of days at a meeting of professional zookeepers, medical toxinologists and venom suppliers to discuss some of the issues regarding the keeping of venomous exotic snakes, particularly the current position regarding antivenoms for exotic snakebites and the consequences of exotic snakebites.

There are two very important bits of information to convey to the broader herp community:

1. There are serious issues regarding antivenom availability for the treatment of exotic snakebites - basically zoos and venom suppliers have sufficient to treat 1 or 2 bites from the species in their collections, but when it comes to the private keeping fraternity, nobody has any real idea of how many venomous exotics are in the community, or what species, and this means that we have no idea what antivenoms need to be available in case a private keeper gets tagged.

2. Should a private keeper get tagged, the medical profession are not in the least interested in the legality or otherwise of your snakes. They are concerned with providing you with the most appropriate treatment and the that means the most appropriate antivenoms. Some species have venom that varies considerably depending on where it comes from, and some antivenoms do not work for specimens of the same species that come from different geographical locations. The medical view is that if you come in to a hospital with an exotic bite your confidentiality will be respected and you will not be handed over for prosecution.

My question to everyone and especially to anyone concerned about the risk of exotic snakebite in Australia is:

Does anyone here think that keepers would be willing to anonymously reveal the species you are keeping and whether or not you are breeding them/transferring them to others? - no names, no other details except a species name, the number held and yes or no to the breeding/transfer question.

I know that everyone involved in keeping exotics is concerned about legal issues - this has absolutely nothing to do with that - this question is simply about enabling Doctors to be prepared to treat bites and to have the right antivenoms available.

Exotic snakebites can produce horrific injuries and we do not want anyone to end up dead because they were afraid that if they wnet to hospital they would be arrested and/or their animals seized.

Maybe Slaty can do set up a thread that anonymous users can post their comments on in order to answer this without using user names?

Cheers


David


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## sxereturn (Jun 3, 2004)

Was this the one held at ARP? If so, did you see the photos from Venom Supplies of them milking the Rhino's and Gaboons? I was the good looking guy in the background.


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

David,
Firstly, the anonymous thread wouldn't be totally anonymous because IP addresses for each computer can be traced (correct me if I'm wrong).

Secondly, personally my only concern regarding venomous exotics' snake bites is innocent people such as children of the people committing the crime by keeping these animals. It has nothing to do with the general community as far as I'm concerned, and will just raise the amount of money hospitals and the like have to spend on products which will be rarely used.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is keeping exotics in Australia are aware it's illegal. Further to that, any of those people who are keeping venomous species would have to have had some experience with the animals. It is their responsibility to make sure no innocent / unaware person is bitten. Other than that, if they get bitten themselves, that is the consequence of their choices and actions.

Simon Archibald


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## toxinologist (Jun 3, 2004)

Yeah mate - awesome pics - and PM has a mindblowing setup, perhaps just marginally beaten out by the ARP collection and setup - that place is a credit to JW and all the staff.

Cheers

Dave


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

LOl Simon, did you need all those words just to say
"if they get bitten, tough!" :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

Instar - you da man

Simon Archibald


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

You'd make a great politician Simon :wink:


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## sxereturn (Jun 3, 2004)

A few relevant points from me...

I was anti-exotics until I saw some with my own eyes. I am a converted man...

Keeping any reptiles used to be illegal - they couldn't beat it, so they regulated it. They need to do the same with exotics. Simon - the law is only the law if you get caught. Ever smoked a J? Ever gone above the speed limit? Both potentially lethal... Once you have seen a 5 foot long Rhino Viper, or a 10 foot long Forest Cobra, you'll understand. This is a problem the government could have control over if they went about it the right way. The reptiles are already here, and if it is regulated, 90% of the problems they say will come with exotics will be stamped out.

This may be a little all over the shop, I just typed my thoughts (only the G rated ones...)


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

sxereturn said:


> Simon - the law is only the law if you get caught.



...in your eyes, does this apply to rape, murder, child molestation??? Life is not simply about breaking the law when it suits you and then criticising other people who carry out more "severe" crimes. You can't just say it's only a bad thing if you get caught, and if you can do it withouth getting caught go ahead.



sxereturn said:


> Ever smoked a J?



...No



sxereturn said:


> Ever gone above the speed limit?



Actually a close friend of mine was killed in a car accident after being hit by a speeding driver. For this reason I'm one of those "sissy's" who actually bothers to abide by the law for safety's sake.



sxereturn said:


> The reptiles are already here, and if it is regulated, 90% of the problems they say will come with exotics will be stamped out.



I would definately support a licensing system for exotics and would definately keep them if it was legal. But, just because you think the government is doing a bad job by not letting people keep them doesn't make it OK.

Simon Archibald


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## toxinologist (Jun 3, 2004)

Not quite that simple Simon - for starters most of the long time native reptile keepers were once 'illegal' keepers as well, but nobody would refuse any of them medical care, just as nobody refuses it to any other victim of their actions - be they drug addicts who OD, kids who fall off the roof thinking they are superman, or drunk drivers who slam into telephone poles on the way home.

The reality is that there are keepers with venomous exotics, and not all of them know what they are dealing with. Two examples we heard from the Head of a major Sydney hospital Emergency Department:

1. Guy turns up with snakebite - says he has a licence and was bitten by his pet desert death adder - when the rather unusual symptoms begin developing he is questioned again and admits that he was bitten by a snake a bought from a dealer, and that all he knows is that is is from Africa and venomous ...

... and the culprit - a *South African puff adder (Bitis arietans)* :shock: 

2. Fella down the south coast is sold a baby 'carpet snake' for $100 in a pub - takes snake home and keeps for about 12 months in a glass tank on the coffee table in the lounge room. Lets his kids play with snake, lets their friends play with the snake - anytime they like. Eventually becomes concerned that the snake is becoming increasingly aggressive and finally starts doubting the 'carpet snake' ID ... takes snake to Taronga Zoo and nearly gives the keepers a heart attack ...

... and the culprit - a *Russell's viper (Daboia russelli)* of UNKNOWN origin and therefore UNKNOWN antivenom requirement (depending on the locality you need a different AV)

In this second case the buyer was not a herper - he had a kid interested in reptiles and thought the cute little snake would be a great surprise ... he sure got that right ...

Think is that it is an absolute miracle nobody was nailed by the _Daboia_ and killed. If you have ever worked with these - and I have - you would know just how nasty and dangerous they can really be - and we're talking bites that cause hideous local tissue destruction and depending on the locality - renal failure, pituitary gland haemorrhages and a whole host of other potentially fatal outcomes ...

There is *NO ANTIVENOM* for this species in Australia.

As I said at the start of the post, this is not about finger pointing - this is about saving lives if and when the time comes without making judgements. As for IP addresses the concensus of the group was that this is a non-issue - believe it or not the authorities actually have better things to do than troll the various forums for potential suspects.

Cheers


Dave


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## peterescue (Jun 3, 2004)

And Simon, Making condoms unavailable will stop teenagers having sex too.
Peter


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## Fuscus (Jun 3, 2004)

Simon_Archibald said:


> David,
> Firstly, the anonymous thread wouldn't be totally anonymous because IP addresses for each computer can be traced (correct me if I'm wrong).



Almost correct. Most people have floating addresses, the trace goes back to your ISP and they tell the cops who was using that address at the time of post.

But there are services can hide the origin of a mail. If you are really worried use hotmail from an internet cafe.

And yes, a list of hots kept in Australia would be a good idea, but if someone was irresponsible enough to import/keep a naughty hot then they proberly wouldn't be responsible to add it to the list.


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

Dave,
I can understand the viewpoint of all doctors, nurses and other medical staff on the issue. They want to make sure they can cater to a need if it arises. This is fair enough and totally what would be expected of people who train for years to look out for human well-being. That's very commendable.

What I have a problem with is this...A teacher I work with at a High School here in Newcastle recently had a fall while on class in a food-tech room. She fell to the floor while holding a knife and ended up slicing her hand right open. The cut was very deep and severed a nerve. She was rushed to the public hospital with blood literally spurting out, to the point her hair was dripping with blood and her face was totally red. This lady was not attended to for 4 1/2 hours after arriving at the hospital because the staff were too busy.

Now, if that was someone I knew and the staff were busy monitoring and administering anti-venom to a keeper of exotic venomous snakes, I'd be pretty damn annoyed. Why should someone who abides by the law and was involved in an honest accident have to wait while a knowing criminal is treated?

Simon Archibald


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

peterescue said:


> And Simon, Making condoms unavailable will stop teenagers having sex too.
> Peter



Upbeat Pete, if you believe that (and the scary thing is I think you might) then we're all in trouble.

Simon Archibald


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

For christ sake Simon, life threatening emergencies come before some silly cow with a cut hand. Nothing else matters. what if it was YOU needing lifesaving treatment?, and they were sooking a hand cut ????
death makes no distinction between crims and goody two shoes.


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

Instar,
Firstly, this lady is not a cow - she's much more a decent person than it appears you'll ever be. Secondly, she lost so much blood because she was not treated that she nearly died. She spent 6 nights in hospital because of it, couldn't find the right blood. Criminals are not emergencies as far as I'm concerned.

Simon Archibald


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

Hey it was your hypathetical situation, not mine." Hypathetical" simon. Dont avoid the point.
Glad your not the law! 12 yr old boy steals car, crashes it, needs lifesaving treatment? tough sh*t, because Simon, "never sinned" archibald is getting treatment for hemmaroids!


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2004)

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Very interesting David. Thanks for sharing that with us!!


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

Yeah, sorry David. I think a database like that would be an excellent idea, probably have to be privately funded though? Are these cases actually so common? Any statistics on exotic bites?


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

The situation was not hypothetical - this actually happened, all minus the other patient being an exotic venomous snake keeper. This lady was actually waiting 4 1/2 hours for treatment and nearly died.

As for being a saint, no I'm not and never claimed to be. I just respect the law and someone who diobeys it willingly when they have the choice to otherwise do the right thing should be punished.

As for a 12 year old child stealing a car, I don't believe he should be denied treatment, but it wouldn't hurt the world if we had 1 less delinquent. I didn't do things like this when I was a kid because I was taught manners and respect. When I did the wrong thing I was punished, usually with a wooden spoon and I soon learned my lesson. I think Billy Connolly's theory that "we need to trim the herd" has a lot of merit.

Simon Archibald


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

David?


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## NCHERPS (Jun 3, 2004)

David,
I can see where your coming from and agree that the gate needs to be shut, before the horse has bolted, as it were.
I also hope that people come forward anonymously and let the authorities know what they have, they could do this from a Internet cafe if they were worried about people tracing there IP addresses.

It is worrying, The 2nd snake I bought out here was from a guy in the Sydney area, he didn't know me from Adam, and thought he would brag about the snakes he had, including exotic's, he said that he could get me Boa's, corns and venomous, he told be he had a Morrocan rattlesnake, and I just went along with what he said and told him I wasn't interested in exotic's, as I had kept them for 19 yrs, as I am from the UK.
The worrying thing is, if you haven't already gathered, is that rattlesnakes don't come from Morroco or anywhere else in Africa for that matter, he clearly had know idea what he had in his posession, other than a rattlesnake! Very worrying, especially as he said that the snakes were kept around his parents house.

I have worked with Daboia russelli siamensis, and yes they are nasty buggers, that fella and his family would of had a lucky escape!

Neil


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

David just PM'd me with an interesting point about Australia Post/Customs workers that may be tagged by an illegally imported specimen. I think for these reasons, it would definately be necessary and worthwhile to have supplies of anitvenoms on hand. Good point David, I had not thought of this.

Simon Archibald


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

much legal wrangling would be required to produce these antivenoms though. i see red tape everywhere.


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

instar said:


> much legal wrangling would be required to produce these antivenoms though. i see red tape everywhere.



As has been stated many times already, exotic snakes are being milked at SA Venom. If the government allows the milking to go on, then the distribution of such anit-vemons would not pose a problem that I can see.

Also, I'd assume it would be similar to how the ARP sell their snake venoms to reaearch institutes. Maybe Australian distributors would purchase from overseas producers.

Simon Archibald


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

This lady was actually waiting 4 1/2 hours for treatment and nearly died. 

My apology then Simon, i thought the lady was hypathetical too. Glad shes ok. Long waits for similar injuries are common, i think you'll find. Perhaps the hospital was run off its feet, with more urgent cases, lack of staff, lack of beds etc etc etc.


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## toxinologist (Jun 3, 2004)

There are mechanisms already in place to enable antivenom to be acquired from suppliers around the world .. setting up a central repository is just one of the ideas to be explored as a result of the forum at the ARP.

The majority of exotic bites (and there haven't been many - although 22 years ago I was one of them) are bites suffered by zoo keepers involving legal snakes. Apart from the puff adder bite in Sydney, there was mention of bites involving cobra species among the non-zoo fraternity.

In real life there may only be one bite in the next ten years - but the consensus is that even that one accident needs to be planned for - and let's hope it isn't a keeper's child.

Even a poll question (which would be anonymous) would provide helpful info - although having some idea of the diversity (types of snakes) to be polled is necessary.

Cheers


Dave


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 3, 2004)

instar said:


> My apology then Simon, i thought the lady was hypathetical too. Glad shes ok.



...I believe that's a genuine mistake. Thank you for apologising.

Simon Archibald


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

. Didnt know about S.A venom simon. I imagined importation of venoms for production would be ness. 

Thanks David, Im thinking an amnesty, more geared toward assessing genuine information about numbers and diversity of exotics, rather than towards "last chance before prosecution" would have been much more useful in that regard. maybe a trade deal, a new license for exotics (currently held only) in return for information andvenom for use as antivenom?


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## Fuscus (Jun 3, 2004)

I know it is expensive to maintain exotic anti-venoms. From memory it costs the adelaide zoo $17k every three months to maintain the anti-venom for a particular species of rattler. The talk was a while ago and I can't fully remenber the details.


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## instar (Jun 3, 2004)

Good point fuscus, cant see the same goverment funding anything like that, mores the pity.
thats alot of money, maybe my hypathetical legal exotic licensees should have to pay hefty fees to cover that? Is that money raised thruogh general revenue of the zoo, or are they subsidised at all?


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## toxinologist (Jun 3, 2004)

Most antivenoms have a shelf life of 3 years - the Antivypermin (Rattlesnake) AV from Mexico costs less than US$75 per ampoule - up to 20 or so are needed for a mild envenomation I think from memory - this is the stuff Adelaide have.

Australian zoos buy their own antivenoms and have indicated a willingness to allow that antivenom to be used in an emergency involving a private keeper.

We know what the zoos and venom suppliers have - both in terms of snakes and antivenoms - what we need to know is what species others have so that when antivenoms are purchased we can try to get the best coverage for all contingencies,

Cheers


Dave


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## sydneygoldsales.com (Jun 4, 2004)

Why not step back a few years and allow people to snail mail you what they have.

Nothing can be traced to a letter.


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## peterescue (Jun 4, 2004)

Simon_Archibald said:


> peterescue said:
> 
> 
> > And Simon, Making condoms unavailable will stop teenagers having sex too.
> ...


I thought it was more your type of thinking Simon. Goes with that conservative pulpit your preaching from.  
Peter


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## Farkurnell (Jun 4, 2004)

The data base is an excellent idea but it's highly unlikely that many people would come forward to add to it.

Apart from the couple of examples of near misses you've told us about already, is it known how many cases of exotic bitten people have been treated in hospitals here in Australia?



.....and to go ever so slightly off topic. 
Simon old mate, you might wanna spark up a joint now and again just to chill out a bit. You could do with it. 





Cheers, Gregory.


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## sxereturn (Jun 4, 2004)

And also, Simon, ever heard of the term 'civil disobedience'?

You have the same mentality as Christians, which ISN'T a good thing.


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## earthmother (Jun 4, 2004)

IMO We don't NEED anymore snakes. We have the most spectacular venomous species on earth right here.
We are displaying the greed of other countries who's need for more has caused naught but trouble in their own environments.

With our conservation laws and with the amazing number of species of reptile we already have at our own backdoor, we are pushing the envelope.
We definitely do not need any overseas imports, they always somehow become a pest (ie: Red Eared Slider communities, cane toads, foxes, rabbits etc.)

I can be moved on most things and am happy to be corrected about facts. 
But this is an opinion that is long seated and I hope we do not go the way of commercialising our reptile trade to a point that we equate the introduction of more reptiles with more dollars, and where we forget our own native reptile resources and belittle their place in our habitat.

Em


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## Slateman (Jun 4, 2004)

Hi Dave
I would be not involved with such a thing here on APS. we are busy enough as it is , and that action would be better handle by authorities.
Your article is most interesting. And ofcourse we should be ready to treet anybody who need it if possible with out doubt. Humanity is the answer.


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## sxereturn (Jun 4, 2004)

earthmother said:


> IMO We don't NEED anymore snakes. We have the most spectacular venomous species on earth right here.
> We are displaying the greed of other countries who's need for more has caused naught but trouble in their own environments.



Have you ever SEEN something like a Rhino Viper? Or a Gaboon Viper? How about a Forest Cobra? Or a rattler? As I said, I had the same opinion as you until I got upclose with these animals, and I am still in awe. Picture a 5 foot long Death Adder, with a head bigger than your hand, inch long horns coming out beside it's nostrils, scales so strongly keeled they will cut you like a cheese grater, and the most amazing colour patterns I have ever seen. Not to mention fangs that are 2+ inches long. What do we have in Australia that even resembles that?



> With our conservation laws and with the amazing number of species of reptile we already have at our own backdoor, we are pushing the envelope.
> We definitely do not need any overseas imports, they always somehow become a pest (ie: Red Eared Slider communities, cane toads, foxes, rabbits etc.)



The only one of those examples that is relevant is the Red Eared Sliders. If the government had some sort of regulation system, there wouldn't be a problem! If someone wants to get rid of their animal, and none of their friends want it, what are they meant to do? They can't advertise it for sale, and they can't kill their pet...so they release it. If it weren't illegal to keep these guys they wouldn't be in the wild.



> I can be moved on most things and am happy to be corrected about facts.
> But this is an opinion that is long seated and I hope we do not go the way of commercialising our reptile trade to a point that we equate the introduction of more reptiles with more dollars, and where we forget our own native reptile resources and belittle their place in our habitat.



The reptiles won't need to be introduced, there is already a HUGE underground industry, they are already here. I don't see any other option really...


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## instar (Jun 4, 2004)

I agree with minimising harm/change to our enviroment as much as any dyed-in-the-wool greeny, but i have a huge fascination for wildlife of anykind or origin. The world is becoming a smaller place and with that comes an expectation of wider experience. People have a right to experience all our world has to offer, be that, medicine, tecknowledgy or wildlife. We cant all travel the world sadly, that limits our experience. Its the 21st century, we can fly to mars, we can have the pleasure of owning an animal from anywhere. "We have the techknowledgy and the means to do it safely. I do beleive that, Strictly legislated, licensed, quaranteened and sterilised exotics have a place in our country, outside of zoo,s and wildlife parks. Terrible mistakes (wildlife) of the past, have been hard lessons, but we now know the effects of tampering with ecosystems. If we never kept blowing up rockets, we would never have made it to the moon. Safe exotic animal ownership is so much more easily acheived in the modern world, Fear has always been the greatest hurdle (right after beaurocracy)


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## moosenoose (Jun 4, 2004)

The points here are simple.

1. Safety.
2. Risks to our native wildlife.
3. Imprisonment (up to 2 years) and/or
4. Huge fines ($10k+)

?.and for what? Because it looks different, or it?s a novelty? The big question of ?IF? you ever get tired of it, then what? People are swapping carpets left right & centre all the time. I?m all for the keeping of non venomous exotics though (and if it can be done properly, even the venomous ones!). The international license works as far as I?m concerned, and I can?t understand why its implementation can?t be further introduced across the community. I do understand however, the blanket ban on exotic animals is not only simple, but cost effective for the DSE.

If these venomous exotics are permitted to be privately kept, the main problem will be the cost factor involved with their regular maintenance. Who foots the cost in the keeping of AV at the local hospitals for these keepers (definitely not the responsibility of taxpayers)? The cost would most certainly have to fall on the keepers themselves. I?d be interested in hearing what the processes are involved with the stocking of AV to local hospitals (I dare say I?ll get a good answer on this). Am I also correct in saying that if a keeper has a native Elapid in their possession, that their closest hospital has to be notified on the type of animal kept, as to ensure there is a supply of the appropriate AV on call?

I realize that here in Melbourne that stocks of AV for Copperheads, Tiger snakes and Red Bellies etc are commonplace. But, the stocking of AV for Inland Taipans & Death Adders etc at our local hospitals would seem to be an irrelevant acquisition simply because they are not a threat to the people here.. It would be like New Zealand stocking a large and varied supply of anti snake venom, it?s just not necessary.

The best thing we can hope for at the moment is that the DSE isn?t ever going to become complacent about this topic. Their decisions at times to me can seem rather ruthless, and sometimes not very well thought out. But through the articles and news clippings I read from time to time, I?m certainly glad we?re not the U.S. and experiencing the problems they are due to lax regulations. :roll:


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## instar (Jun 4, 2004)

For venomous exotics, i suppose a venom bank idea might work. The keeper has the snake milked and antivenom produced but pay cost of production/ storage , be on a database ???
not sure how that could work. seems people of any dangerous hobby/profession must be self responsible, its not up to the law to make you act sensibly.


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## Simon_Archibald (Jun 4, 2004)

sxereturn said:


> You have the same mentality as Christians, which ISN'T a good thing.



I think any mentality is better than one fuelled by testosterone and the need for adrenalin. Not to mention 2-inch long fangs.

Simon Archibald


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## moosenoose (Jun 4, 2004)

Let?s face it Instar. I'm probably going to get screamed down for this, but whoever wants to take a swipe - go for your life! As I used to be heavily involved with drag racing at track level, it was always obvious to me some of types it used to attract. I dare say that the keeping of reptiles, particularly venomous ones, is a fashionable addition to plenty of 'toughies'. The main thing is that these types of people obtain these animals illegally anyway and don?t proceed through the proper channels to obtain them. Not to mention the reasons for having them in the first place. To these sorts of people there is no difference in keeping a Death Adder or an exotic Pit Adder. So here in lies a big part of the problem. By no means are these people a definition of the word 'responsible' or let?s go as far as using the word ?intelligent? and will not act accordingly. There is plenty of truth in what I?ve just stated. I will say however, that I'm not aiming these comments across the board and realize the desirability of these animals to real herpologists.


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## instar (Jun 4, 2004)

Good point Moose, cowboys in every feild. Same with pitbulls etc, certain mentality attached methinks. Sadly people will always want things, be animals or anything else, for the wrong reasons. If exotics could be obtained legally, there would have to be very tough character checks, cooling off periopds etc, much like a prospective gun buyer. You dont want to sell a gun to Martin Bryant or a pitviper to Raymond hoser. :lol:


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## moosenoose (Jun 4, 2004)

lol Yes, by God you don't want the later LMAO


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## Magpie (Jun 4, 2004)

David, I think it's a great idea. However, the problem with an internet based list of exotics is that a lot of the people who keep and breed exotics vens would never come across it and probably wouldn't care if they did. It would need at least a TV / Radio campaign with a phone in hot line I think.


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## earthmother (Jun 4, 2004)

If Hoser free handles vens, yes, let's give him a few.

Yes, I have seen Rhino Vipers and eyelash Vipers, Cobras, Boa constrictors, Alligators, Iguanas, and others, and yes Sxe, I'm in awe of them, enough that I want to see them protected like our natives are, in their own countries. 
Even our natives CB species escape sometimes, how much damage would escapee exotics do? Read some US sites about dumping rates also. 

When the US changes laws that say they can catch wilds, then we should consider opening imports, not before. It's asking for trouble.

Our 1st line of defense should be, if the laws are in place to exclude illegal exports to this country, It's a law. Follow it.
Then, you are not doing anything wrong and can sleep happy.

I can't help it, I think it's greedy. Sorry.
Em.


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## instar (Jun 4, 2004)

So you never go to zoo's and wildlife parks to see animals you cant have Em? Why is it greedy to have a deep intrest in an animal that happens to be non native to your country of origin?
A sterile escapee cant do much (unless its venomous :twisted: )Also many exotics may not survive parts of our climate anyway. as for dumping, regular checks of licensees and a jail term for dumping an animal/and/or an organised place to hand in an unwanted animal would fix that, along with hefty fees for the license. You cant dispose of a native you've had less than 6 months, a similar regulations could apply? All comes back to fear, look what happened with canetoads etc. P.s. If the silly buggers had the forsight to sterilise the firstbatch of cane toads as a safe gaurd, they might have prevented todays mess. Most arguments against licensing exotics seems to be based on enviroment/eco concerns, but all these problems can be worked around with some careful sensible planning and very strict guidelines. better to have sterile healthy exotics than illegal, virile and possibly disease carrying ones smuggled in. People break the law because its there. :lol:
If there were laws put inplace befor any legalisation, it would be possible to prevent a "flood" of exotics. for example, a requisit waiting list for applications to import, say 12 months, then 6 months quaranteen period, all expenses to be paid be the applicant including import licensing quaranteen, sterilisation. Higher ongoing fees for licensing than for natives, not to mention very high prices for the animals themselves. A strict limit on numbers per applicant, and a license grade system. requisit training on husbandry and handling for the species being imported to be satisfactorily completed before hand. further restrictions on housing, locked room policies for venomous and no tolerance regulations with removing an exotic from the premises. compulsary microchipping for id. these things combined would choke off the flow of incoming exotics to a trickle and weed out the cowboys too. (cept the rich ones LOL)
It could be done without disasters.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 4, 2004)

sxereturn said:


> You have the same mentality as Christians, which ISN'T a good thing.



What is a christians mentality? Please I am eager to know.


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## Slateman (Jun 4, 2004)

Hmm . Lot of crap in this topic :? .


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2004)

Have you ever seen them without the glass in front of them em? Have you touched them? have you seen them feed, mate or any of other awesome things they do, ever seen them pump ot 5 grams of highly toxic venom into a beaker.. I doubt it. we do have some awesome snakes and Australian snakes are the best, however there are some AWESOME exotics. I will never keep exotics when they are illegal, but if they are legalized one day, I will be one of the first to get some!


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 4, 2004)

I agree Slateman, this is what happens when people are not forced to abide by the rules. :? 

Bartiji, I have never had the pleasure of seeing any exotic snakes, maybe a few pics but thats it. If they were legal I would definately own a few.


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## earthmother (Jun 5, 2004)

instar said:


> So you never go to zoo's and wildlife parks to see animals you cant have Em? Why is it greedy to have a deep intrest in an animal that happens to be non native to your country of origin?
> .



 No Inny, I love seeing reptiles of all kinds anywhere they are displayed; that's how I saw the Rhino Viper, Iguana and such. I don't have a moments problem with not being able to own them, I do have a deep interest Inny. I'm plain obsessed!  and in awe and I'll learn what I can about them, I find all reptiles fascinating.

Some species I've looked into are the Green Iguana, The C.atrox r
Rattlesnake, The Anaconda, many kinds of Boas, Burmese and ball pythons, Corn snakes, the Corals and Kingsnakes- some exotic turtles and tortoises, and the exotic agamids.
I'm no brainiac but I retained some information.
None of which we can get here but I was intrigued enough to want to find out.

I still have so much more to learn about our own also!!

I'll just remind you that it's a hobby for me, 8) I don't plan to make money out of my snakes, and I have many more incredible non vens in Australian species to try yet.
Moth will NEVER let me have a ven and he's quite right and totally sane about that! :lol: 

Brodes - yes I saw snakes being milked when I was a kid and you were a twinkle in your grandads eye. :shock: 
I envy your experience with the vens especially more recently, and you are obviously making this a career path, please understand it's just my opinion which I know will not change the outcome of any reptile keeping laws - and I'm sure you'll always be able to get your hands on something fun, with your contacts  
Em


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