# Raising quail - feeding live??



## stargazer13 (Feb 14, 2018)

I'm planning on getting my first snake really soon (a jungle python), been doing lots of research (thanks aussie pythons members your knowledge has been really valuable), but I can’t seem to find much on the possibility of feeding live bird. I’m happy to feed thawed mice/rats (not keen on raising) but would like to raise quail for my snake.

I understand the risks of feeding live mice/rats but is this the same for live birds? Is there any risk to my snake in feeding live quail/young chicken? Or should I do the dirty work first?

If considered safe for my snake, theoretically how quickly could a jungle kill a bird or is it more humane (for the bird) if I do it?

I’ve read that nutritional a purely quail diet is acceptable, but could you feed quail for the snakes lifetime? Considering how small they are, would you have to feed more in a sitting or more often? Or move to juvenile chickens?

Thanks in advanced.


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## GBWhite (Feb 14, 2018)

Hi Stargazer,

It's not only considered unethical, immoral and cruel to feed any animal live to a snake but illegal unless there are extending circumstances so, yes you would have to "do the dirty" first. You'd also have to increase the size of the food item as the snake grows.

I've never used birds as a food item so someone who does may be able to provide the best advice of how to dispatch them.

Cheers,

George.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 14, 2018)

I use birds as food and have had some animals that were fed almost exclusively on chickens as it was their preferred food item.
Never had a problem feeding birds BUT......if you use this as an occasional food source be prepared for some rather smelly and messy cleaning days.


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## stargazer13 (Feb 14, 2018)

Thanks George, i didn't realise it was illegal! Completely understand the moral concerns tho.

Thanks Paul, the plan is to feed exclusively on bird 

Any advice on dispatch would be greatly appreciated


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 14, 2018)

Gas is the only ethical method


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## Nero Egernia (Feb 14, 2018)

Cervical dislocation works for me. 

I mainly feed my adult pythons quail and pigeon. An adult Japanese Quail is roughly the same size of an adult rat. They're not small at all, and my adult male can only just manage to swallow a large full grown female quail. Their stools are no less messy than my juvenile pythons which are predominantly feeding on rodents for the time being.

Theoretically a live quail could probably do some damage. Their claws are sharp and a well placed peck could potentially spell disaster, particularly to a young snake with thinner and softer skin.


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## stargazer13 (Feb 14, 2018)

Thanks very much for the responses everyone

I know i will be able find some info on gas dispatch, i think that would be the best and least messy method for me, just a matter of getting it set up

That's interesting to know Nero thank you! I would prefer to feed quail over chook so that is good.
[doublepost=1518582640,1518576423][/doublepost]I'm sure this method has been mentioned before but for future readers and those who are interested, i found a good article with an easy set up on culling/gassing chicks using tubs, vinegar & baking soda. i will be giving this method a go when the time comes.
http://www.waldeneffect.org/how_to_cull_chicks/


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## cris (Feb 15, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Gas is the only ethical method



What book you have been reading lol... You can kill any vertebrate animal humanely with blunt trauma at the base of the skull. With quails and similar birds you can just break their necks or rip their heads off (the later is not ideal if being used as snake food). The main problem with breeding quail as reptile food is that they are better food than 99% of the crap you can buy in shops and you will probably eat too many yourself


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 15, 2018)

cris said:


> You can kill any vertebrate animal humanely with blunt trauma at the base of the skull. With quails and similar birds you can just break their necks or rip their heads off



Exactly why gas is the best option.
Not many people are expert at dispatching quail and the mess can be quite disgusting. 
I have dispatched many quail and often end up with decapitated birds which is as you say


cris said:


> (the later is not ideal if being used as snake food).



Hence for inexperienced people gas would be the ethical method and I stand by my comment.


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## cris (Feb 15, 2018)

A python hug is probably as humane as a backyard gas chamber IMO. Simple and quick is the best way unless you have 6 gorillian of them.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 15, 2018)

cris said:


> A python hug is probably as humane as a backyard gas chamber IMO. Simple and quick is the best way unless you have 6 gorillian of them.



And completely unethical.


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## Foozil (Feb 15, 2018)

In my un-asked for opinion if you have the option to painlessly kill the prey before feeding, then doing so is a no brainer. Of course its a different story if the snake will only take live prey, but even then I'd rather assist-feed than live feed.


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## Bl69aze (Feb 15, 2018)

Smack something at the base of skull doesn’t sound nice to do :/ unless you’re an old lady who grew up chopping live chicken heads off for dinner.

Even cervical dislocation would be less painful than blunt trauma, provided you do it correctly..


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 15, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Smack something at the base of skull doesn’t sound nice to do :/ unless you’re an old lady who grew up chopping live chicken heads off for dinner.
> 
> Even cervical dislocation would be less painful than blunt trauma, provided you do it correctly..



Neither are guaranteed to deliver a dead animal without pain & suffering.
Too many people make mistakes which is why gassing is the suggested alternative.....(Not that people always get that right either)


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## Foozil (Feb 15, 2018)

If painless killing = humanely killing then Cris the all mighty would be right in saying that gassing isn't the only way, for example chucking the quail into a wood chipper... my point is, gassing is the only guaranteed painless and non-messy way to kill a quail, unless you're a butcher or something IMO.
But hey, what would I know, Cris is the expert around here haha
Also, this comment probably has no value as this is my understanding and opinion so what does that matter?


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 15, 2018)

cris said:


> Your post was just wrong



My post is not wrong it just disagrees with your opinion. When I started keeping live feeding was common place as was the use of blunt force trauma. These methods have been surpassed due to the inability of humans to either (a) take live prey out of the enclosure or (b) manage to dispatch prey items without creating said prey item horrific pain and suffering. So I support the recommended method for the killing of prey animals that is used as the standard.


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## cris (Feb 15, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Neither are guaranteed to deliver a dead animal without pain & suffering.
> Too many people make mistakes which is why gassing is the suggested alternative.....(Not that people always get that right either)



Yeah, not trying to cause trouble, but at least with a physical method you can make sure it is quick and humane with no messing about (there are hundreds of threads about this stuff). Have you ever eaten quail? they are so tasty 
[doublepost=1518695126,1518694970][/doublepost]


Bl69aze said:


> Smack something at the base of skull doesn’t sound nice to do :/ unless you’re an old lady who grew up chopping live chicken heads off for dinner.
> 
> Even cervical dislocation would be less painful than blunt trauma, provided you do it correctly..


You could feed'm maccas untill they get a stroke if that is how you roll 
[doublepost=1518695957][/doublepost]


Bl69aze said:


> Smack something at the base of skull doesn’t sound nice to do :/



These people are saying it is wrong for the python to kill it, killing it quickly is best. Accept that you need to kill animals and that it is healthy. Otherwise chose the dark path of the vegan who seeks to destroy the global ecosystem.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 15, 2018)

cris said:


> These people are saying it is wrong for the python to kill i



No, THIS PERSON is saying its unethical and certainly not something that is promoted on this site.


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## vampstorso (Feb 15, 2018)

I wouldn't use bicarb and vinegar, but I would suggest gassing.

There will be plenty of posts about this using various easy to do setups with actual canisters of gas...be it soda stream or otherwise.
I will try and link some for you tomorrow.


Please do not use baking soda and vinegar. That is very risky and also a bit silly if you plan to do this a lot.

Please do not live feed.


In nature the snake has the element of surprise, which aids in its safety, and limits the suffering and fear of the pray.

Just as I wouldn't live feed my dog, though it'd be "more natural" and he might enjoy it, I wouldn't live feed my snake.


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## cris (Feb 15, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> No, THIS PERSON is saying its unethical and certainly not something that is promoted on this site.


So yesterday when I was watching a whip snake eat a dragon should I have called the RSPCA? or should I have killed the snake to stop it killing more harmless lizards? 

It seems a long bow to draw from simply flicking a quail to kill it instantly verse some roller coaster holocaust machine thingy, are you German?


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## Nero Egernia (Feb 15, 2018)

Everyone, there's no one method to humanely kill quail. What may work for you may not work for someone else. Let's leave it at that. There's no need to include politics or lifestyle choices into this thread.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 15, 2018)

cris said:


> It seems a long bow to draw from simply flicking a quail to kill it instantly verse some roller coaster holocaust machine thingy, are you German?



I'm not going to lower myself to your standards. Being called a fascist is one thing but what my nationality has to do with anything I have no idea, unless this is your attempt at humour bringing the holocaust into the topic.


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## Scutellatus (Feb 15, 2018)

In all fairness gassing might be considered ethical, but this is only if it is done correctly, which the majority of the time it isn't.
Ever had a rodent bleed from the nose after defrosting? Well that's a rodent that has been gassed in an unethical manner. Too much gas in too short a time and the blood vessels in their lungs rupture which I am sure is not a peaceful, off to sleep death.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 16, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> In all fairness gassing might be considered ethical, but this is only if it is done correctly, which the majority of the time it isn't.
> Ever had a rodent bleed from the nose after defrosting? Well that's a rodent that has been gassed in an unethical manner. Too much gas in too short a time and the blood vessels in their lungs rupture which I am sure is not a peaceful, off to sleep death.



Agreed.....hence my earlier comment.........


Pauls_Pythons said:


> Too many people make mistakes which is why gassing is the suggested alternative.....(Not that people always get that right either)


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## cris (Feb 16, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> In all fairness gassing might be considered ethical, but this is only if it is done correctly,



I was wondering why there are so few people left here, has the altright taken over?


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## Scutellatus (Feb 16, 2018)

cris said:


> I was wondering why there are so few people left here, has the altright taken over?


Where the hell is that comment coming from?
How do you read what I posted as an altright statement?

There are so few people here because idiots destroyed the forum many years ago with ridiculous statements, personal attacks etc. and then Crackbook signed the death knoll.
Hopefully it doesn't become like it was again.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 16, 2018)

Am I glad I wasn't a part of the 'old' APS if this is anything to go by.


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## Scutellatus (Feb 16, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Am I glad I wasn't a part of the 'old' APS if this is anything to go by.


I joined in 2006 and had had enough by late 2007 and that was at the starting gates of the rubbish that followed.


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## cris (Feb 16, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Where the hell is that comment coming from?
> How do you read what I posted as an altright statement?
> 
> There are so few people here because idiots destroyed the forum many years ago with ridiculous statements, personal attacks etc. and then Crackbook signed the death knoll.
> Hopefully it doesn't become like it was again.



Calm down, I'm not the one who wants to promote gassing as the only final "ethical" solution lol. FMD I would have thought a forum like this would be a place for people to share herping adventures etc. without being prosecuted for evil acts like photographing wildife. Do people still do illegal herping and upload onto farcebook and twatter despite possible prosecution?


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 16, 2018)

lol.......interpret what I say in what ever manner you deem fit.
You seem to consider that feeding live is ethical so I don't see how you can possibly criticise any other comments.
Certainly not a discussion point that will be deemed as fit for this forum of today.


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## Scutellatus (Feb 16, 2018)

cris said:


> Calm down, I'm not the one who wants to promote gassing as the only final "ethical" solution lol. FMD I would have thought a forum like this would be a place for people to share herping adventures etc. without being prosecuted for evil acts like photographing wildife. Do people still do illegal herping and upload onto farcebook and twatter despite possible prosecution?


I didn't state gassing was the only option either. 

To quote yourself " what book have you been reading" or should I say newspaper?
Since when is herping illegal?
If that was the case every herpetological society that go herping are breaking the law.

People do share their herping adventures here, have a look at the 'Field Herping' catergory.

Maybe check out some of the posts around the place too and take note that this isn't the old 'free for all' APS where people slung mud wherever the felt like.

I'd like to say welcome back but I will reserve that judgement for a later date.


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## Stompsy (Feb 16, 2018)

Ignore the troll. He’s fishing and getting plenty of bites..... and I can’t stand fishing.


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## Murph_BTK (Feb 16, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> In all fairness gassing might be considered ethical, but this is only if it is done correctly, which the majority of the time it isn't.
> Ever had a rodent bleed from the nose after defrosting? Well that's a rodent that has been gassed in an unethical manner. Too much gas in too short a time and the blood vessels in their lungs rupture which I am sure is not a peaceful, off to sleep death.


Wow is this correct.. as I have this issue with the blood nose after the defrost. .. I might have to ask my supplier about this.. 
Thank you for raising this.. 

Peace y'all 

Instagram: murph_BTK


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 16, 2018)

cris said:


> A python hug is probably as humane as a backyard gas chamber IMO. Simple and quick is the best way unless you have 6 gorillian of them.


No ethics committee in this country (or the US, UK etc.) shares that opinion with you and their conclusions are based on assessments of actual investigations. The informed vote is several thousand to one, which clearly says something about the worth of your opinion.



cris said:


> So yesterday when I was watching a whip snake eat a dragon should I have called the RSPCA? or should I have killed the snake to stop it killing more harmless lizards? …


 ...What happens in nature is due to nature. However, when you bring an animal into captivity, it is no longer nature that determines what happens, but humans. That is what is being discussed here. So your comment has zero relevance.



cris said:


> …It seems a long bow to draw from simply flicking a quail to kill it instantly verse some roller coaster holocaust machine thingy, are you German?


Your likening of a CO2 gassing chamber to a holocaust machine is like comparing Thomas the Tank Engine to a goods train locomotive - ridiculous and of no value here. However there is simply no excuse for the incredibly offensive reference to being German. I am totally disgusted!


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## Foozil (Feb 16, 2018)

cris said:


> So yesterday when I was watching a whip snake eat a dragon should I have called the RSPCA? or should I have killed the snake to stop it killing more harmless lizards?


I see where you're coming from with this point (and this point only), but as I said before if you have the option to painlessly kill the prey item for a captive snake then why on earth would you want to go with the most painful way for the prey and potentially the snake??


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 16, 2018)

As a qualified slaughterman by trade, the quickest and most effective method to put any animal out with the least amount of stress/pain/trauma is a big bang to the head. In my job, I use an industry approved compressed air pneumatic stun gun which delivers a retractable bolt shaped like a mushroom at 240psi straight between the eyes. The kinetic energy released doesn't even break the skin on the beast's forehead but causes the skull to fracture and the brain to rebound like a ping pong ball off the back and front of the skull repeatedly at high speed causing instant loss of consciousness They're out before they even know what's happening and within 30 seconds another slaughterman makes a transverse and thoracic stick so they can bleed out completely whilst the heart's still beating thus preventing ecchymosis and it's all over. 1,350 head/day. No mishaps.

I've seen gassing have some awful effects. I can't even bring myself to gas Indian Mynas that I trap and that's the recommended method... Seen and heard way too much of that going the wrong way in my experiences. I've watched (not my own) but people gassing mice and rats and they run around hysterically, gasping, peeing and crapping themselves all over the place before eventually falling over and going into what appears to be nothing short of agonising death throes.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 16, 2018)

cris said:


> So yesterday when I was watching a whip snake eat a dragon should I have called the RSPCA? or should I have killed the snake to stop it killing more harmless lizards?





Foozil said:


> I see where you're coming from with this point (and this point only), but as I said before if you have the option to painlessly kill the prey item for a captive snake then why on earth would you want to go with the most painful way for the prey and potentially the snake??



@Foozil 
The statement has no foundation Foozil. In captivity the prey item has no opportunity to escape. Therefor it isn't a fair fight and the terror suffered is akin to animal cruelty.


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## Foozil (Feb 16, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> @Foozil
> The statement has no foundation Foozil. In captivity the prey item has no opportunity to escape. Therefor it isn't a fair fight and the terror suffered is akin to animal cruelty.


Mine or Cris's?


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## cris (Feb 16, 2018)

Foozil said:


> I see where you're coming from with this point (and this point only), but as I said before if you have the option to painlessly kill the prey item for a captive snake then why on earth would you want to go with the most painful way for the prey and potentially the snake??



I have never suggested you should do anything other than kill animals instantly. I may have had a few and engaged in some banter, but it is a pretty simple topic, just like it was 10 years ago.
[doublepost=1518762473,1518762374][/doublepost]


Pauls_Pythons said:


> @Foozil
> The statement has no foundation Foozil. In captivity the prey item has no opportunity to escape. Therefor it isn't a fair fight and the terror suffered is akin to animal cruelty.



This is some hippy logic that has no basis in reality, IRL prey doesn't have a 'fair fight'.


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## Foozil (Feb 16, 2018)

cris said:


> I have never suggested you should do anything other than kill animals instantly. I may have had a few and engaged in some banter, but it is a pretty simple topic, just like it was 10 years ago.


I was referring to your previous post.

I'm gonna stay out of this thread now.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 16, 2018)

Foozil said:


> I'm gonna stay out of this thread now.



You and me both.
And another one added to the ignore list lol


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