# Have you any proof that God exists? Please show me.



## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Im looking for proof that God exists.

And no the intelligent design theory isnt going to cut the mustard unless you have a new bend on it. Darwin proves that one wrong.....also who made God........
Also, because it says in the Bible that God exists isnt enough proof either. Plenty of other books say the same about their God. Books also do lie sometimes. 
Believe in me becasue I say its true...yeah right.
And as for the belief/faith argument.................why not have faith in a rock........no proof.


After all, if their is a God, Im sure he would prefer me to believe from sound reasoning rather then blind faith...or even worse from the fear of eternal damnation!

So please, show me proof that God exists. Otherwise........


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## lizard_lover (Sep 4, 2007)

i dont fully believe but it gives people guidience


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## sezza (Sep 4, 2007)

now now, no need to be lazy. Do your own research. Heres a starting place for you. http://www.answersingenesis.org/


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## IMSNAKEY (Sep 4, 2007)

this can only get ugly.... but have fun kids


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## cris (Sep 4, 2007)

God exists for sure. Its nothing but a concept though, almost a theory but not logical enough.


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## Erin_Jane (Sep 4, 2007)

I have proof that God exists... He is my boyfriend's bluey... The other is Buddah 

But I'm guessing that's not quite what you're after??


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Yes it does give people guidance...guidance isnt under the microscope though, Im looking for proof. 
However, for your guidance reasoning, how come people are saying parts of the bible arent meant to be interpreted literary...where are these people getting their 'guidance' on not taking it literary from?

A study was done on moral ethics on western citizens down to tribes who have little "white man' beliefs. it was found across the board,peoples moral ethics were represented the same. Different gods..no gods had no difference as to moral ethics. So a God does not change what you fundamently believe as right or wrong.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2007)

C'mon, as much as I like these discussions, this really is not the right place (athiest, for the record  ). Im not sure where the right place is, but I don't think this is it :|


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

I feel that my ethics which arnt based on any loonies teachings are more inclusive and logical than those guided by the "right way of god". I went to a christian school and have seen how christians like to amplify their selfrichousness (sp?) through religious texts in issues which i feel are offencive.


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## Trouble (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm wondering the same thing. I've prayed for 10yrs for him to cure my Cystic Fibrosis, hasn't happend.
Is he out there or is it some1s imagination.?


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

sezza said:


> now now, no need to be lazy. Do your own research. Heres a starting place for you. http://www.answersingenesis.org/


 
lazy....Mmmmmmm...
I Just read the bit about proof.

their argument is "that the bible says, so its true"........please show me a bit of dignity and give me a better reasoning then that. Darwins theory has better sound reasoning then "its in a book so it must be true!'

PS ive been looking for answers for years.


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## cement (Sep 4, 2007)

Oh god.......here we go, jesus christ.


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

rednut said:


> C'mon, as much as I like these discussions, this really is not the right place (athiest, for the record  ). Im not sure where the right place is, but I don't think this is it :|


 
rednut......this is your life. The time for your life........your reasoning is now....or you can wait to you die....

Every time is the right time if people wish to discuss it.


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

*Truth can/should be determined independent of God. *However, the Bible states: ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’ (Psalm 111:10); ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge’ (Proverbs 1:7). 

SEZZA! I dont want to base my beliefs in FEAR!


Otherwise i would vote Liberal


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## Retic (Sep 4, 2007)

Of course he exists, he lives around the corner from the Tooth Fairy and just down the road from Santa.


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Otherwise i would vote Liberal



lol

God likes to say he is the truth etc. Yet he personally expressed that knowledge is opposite to life (garden of eden tree of life and tree of knowledge). Who in their right mind would not see through this as a way to control the masses of people.


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

cris said:


> God exists for sure. Its nothing but a concept though, almost a theory but not logical enough.


 
Your saying God exists...but he doesnt?


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## cement (Sep 4, 2007)

I found him last nite.
Behind my couch...........


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

cement said:


> I found him last nite.
> Behind my couch...........


 
hehe.....come on peoples Im not asking for a burning bush and the voice of God...just some proof.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Sep 4, 2007)

how can you prove god doesnt exsist?


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> rednut......this is your life. The time for your life........your reasoning is now....or you can wait to you die....
> 
> Every time is the right time if people wish to discuss it.


 
All I meant was that things tend to get taken out of context in forums like this (internet, txt messages, etc) and people can oftern get the wrong idea about other peoples statements. It comes from not being able to see the other person in the conversation face to face, and missing out on the body language as a result. 
All I'm trying to say is that this MAY start a rift between a few people for no reason.....MAY....not will. People will just need to remain reasonable (I'd like to see that, LMAO) and be considerate, thats all. 

I know my reasoning, I know my logic, and I know my morals. 
My ONE solid belief, is that as far as Im concernced, people can believe in anything they want, including Yogie Bear, as long as they dont try to push their beliefs on me. My best friend is a devout christain (church twice on sundays, and runs the youth group on fridays). A nicer bloke you will not find. I am a devout non-believer. He has politely invited me to church functions in the past, I have politely declined, we remain best mates. He thinks im a fool for not believing, and vice versa. BUT, it would be very hard to achieve an outcome like this over an emotionless forum. 
PROVE ME WRONG, PEOPLE...............


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

PiMp said:


> how can you prove god doesnt exsist?


 
My basic arguments in my first post if followed through blow those 'normal' arguments as to why God exists out of the water. 
Prove me wrong.


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

rednut said:


> I know my reasoning, I know my logic, and I know my morals.
> My ONE solid belief, is that as far as Im concernced, people can believe in anything they want, including Yogie Bear, as long as they dont try to push their beliefs on me. My best friend is a devout christain (church twice on sundays, and runs the youth group on fridays). A nicer bloke you will not find. I am a devout non-believer. He has politely invited me to church functions in the past, I have politely declined, we remain best mates. He thinks im a fool for not believing, and vice versa. BUT, it would be very hard to achieve an outcome like this over an emotionless forum.
> PROVE ME WRONG, PEOPLE...............


 
Good thoughts and your right....to a degree.
Weather we discuss God, or the price of eggs in China, if people dont control themselves its not the discussion thats at fault but the people themselves.


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## Khagan (Sep 4, 2007)

I personally dont believe in God or any religion.. But i also dont agree with discussions like this, if you dont believe in it then just be happy not believing in it and leave the people that do believe in it happy believing in it. Theres no need to proove right or wrong its not like your going to win anything.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Good thoughts and your right....to a degree.
> Weather we discuss God, or the price of eggs in China, if people dont control themselves its not the discussion thats at fault but the people themselves.


 
Yeah, I know, just this topic has a habit of making people, I don't know....open fire...and other stupid shizat, LOL .


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

Khagan said:


> I personally dont believe in God or any religion.. But i also dont agree with discussions like this, if you dont believe in it then just be happy not believing in it and leave the people that do believe in it happy believing in it. Theres no need to proove right or wrong its not like your going to win anything.



I think its important to stuff fundamental religous people of all faiths, these people have a large influence on our society today (such as the inaproval of homosexual marraige).


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## Adzo (Sep 4, 2007)

Khagan said:


> if you dont believe in it then just be happy not believing in it and leave the people that do believe in it happy believing in it. Theres no need to proove right or wrong its not like your going to win anything.



What if your not happy not believing? What if you needed something slightly more solid than "because I said it is so" to believe in?


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## Khagan (Sep 4, 2007)

Adzo said:


> What if your not happy not believing but needing something slightly more solid than "because I said so" to believe in?



You'll never believe then because you'll never find nothing more =P unless you have some kind of expirence that changes you or something.


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Khagan said:


> I personally dont believe in God or any religion.. But i also dont agree with discussions like this, if you dont believe in it then just be happy not believing in it and leave the people that do believe in it happy believing in it. Theres no need to proove right or wrong its not like your going to win anything.


 
Khagan I know where your coming from and I used to be their too. However with people like this
(play it) http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62864
coming along.........the aethiests/agnostics need to speak up if you dont want to be ruled by fundamentalist Christian laws. Its happening now with this War on terror......George Bush has said God told him to take on Iraq and Afghanistan!


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

come on peoples...if hes really out their SHOW ME!


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## Khagan (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Khagan I know where your coming from and I used to be their too. However with people like this
> (play it) http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62864
> coming along.........the aethiests/agnostics need to speak up if you dont want to be ruled by fundamentalist Christian laws. Its happening now with this War on terror......George Bush has said God told him to take on Iraq and Afghanistan!




Yeah seems like a group of total nutters raising young kids to be nutters  eventually i would prob say there will be 'religous wars' i dont think anyone speaking up would stop this stuff.

George Bush using God as an excuse to justify his actions is sad lol.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Sep 4, 2007)

the concept of how a supreme being exsists,is maybe something we as humans can not fathom withthe power of the brains we have,
some things we cant understand ,
but maybe where not capable of this.
an example of what i mean is to explain where everything came from,
and how organisma so complex came to being
we cant explain


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## cris (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> come on peoples...if hes really out their SHOW ME!




You really want proof, here it is a real unmodified photo of God. I know it is real, if you think this isnt God prove it.

The truth is he/she/it actually was last seen running around outback australia some years back, this caused the myth of the bunyip to come into existance.


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## slim6y (Sep 4, 2007)

Well, I was saddened to find out that heaven only has room for humans, our pets are soul-less - even though god created them all - sad sad sad!


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Khagan said:


> Yeah seems like a group of total nutters raising young kids to be nutters  eventually i would prob say there will be 'religous wars' i dont think anyone speaking up would stop this stuff.


 
Eventually? Religous wars are happening now. Its so far amongst the extremists and the Christian countries...lets hope all the muslim countries dont go as crazy as the Christain countries, otherwise we will be in major poo.

As to speaking up not helping.........you have the power to control the world; its up to you wether you do it......no one else.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2007)

Its ok earthling, we all know bush is a W rhymes with anchor. 
There is some really interesting stuff on u-tube by richard dawkins, worthwhile watching, just to think about it. 
When I said 'As long as people don't push their beliefs on me", the meaning of that was, "when people do push their beliefs on me, its game on", cause I love a good stoush, especially when the only comebacks are "He says it, so it must be so", and
"your on the wrong side of god, and thats a bad place to be" (I've had both of these from people trying to convert me at uni). 

Im completetly tolerant of other people who are compeletly tolerant. I dont smoke or drink, but one of the few people I would lay down my life for is a pot smoking ex-heroin junkie. He wouldnt hurt a fly (not getting into a debate about all druggo's being bad people here, OK?) and is one of the most motivated people I know, has also been my biggest supporter in staying away from drugs (backs me up when the peer pressure tossers think they've got a pushover on their hands, not that I need it, LOL). He is tolerant of my habits, Im tolerant of his (would be a different story if he was doing some damage).

On the flip side, Im completely intolerant of other people who are completely intolerant. Religous extremists of all persuasions included.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Sep 4, 2007)

my pets are in pet heaven,especially my python murray i miss that little snake


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## MrBredli (Sep 4, 2007)

Of course God exists and of course i have evidence, photographic evidence in fact. Here He is, The Man himself..... God...






Well, he's my God anyway.... :lol:


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## cement (Sep 4, 2007)

Ok, no one is offering any proof, but i'll go out on a limb and put up my two cents worth.
Belief,trust and faith in yourself is all anyone needs. Confidence and a deep knowledge that the only person, creature or whatever you can count on 100% is yourself.
But........,
You must use introspection, and judge yourself honestly. 
Try and find the ultimate truth in all things, and challenge yourself to be better. It is a long road and doesn't happen overnight, just keep going one small step at a time.

After a while you do look at life differently and don't get affected so much by the ups and downs.

Don't put any stock in what people tell you, do your own research and find the answers yourself,
Even what I write


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

PiMp said:


> the concept of how a supreme being exsists,is maybe something we as humans can not fathom withthe power of the brains we have,
> some things we cant understand ,
> but maybe where not capable of this.
> an example of what i mean is to explain where everything came from,
> ...


 

Aboriginal tribes used to think the white man was a God with his 'powers'........obviously they were fataly mistaken. Just because 'something' can not be explained or has strong powers does not necesarily make it a God.

I feel Darwin has done a better job at explaining where and how things have come into being through evolution then the bible. Supposedly we should believe the bible cause it says its true......even though so much scientific reasoning says its wrong. 
im after a belief that I use from sound reasoning, not blind faith. Wouldnt a true god rather that?


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## nvenm8 (Sep 4, 2007)

well here I am!!! well that's what gets screamed when I am in the bedroom using the workbench oh god! oh god! For proof further than that you will have to take my word for it cause i'm a happily married man! :lol::lol::lol:


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

cement said:


> Ok, no one is offering any proof, but i'll go out on a limb and put up my two cents worth.
> Belief,trust and faith in yourself is all anyone needs. Confidence and a deep knowledge that the only person, creature or whatever you can count on 100% is yourself.
> But........,
> You must use introspection, and judge yourself honestly.
> ...


 
Very good thoughts cement. 
Sounds like your after the truth.
Those who seek will find.
If you believe in yourself why would you need a 'someone/god' to believe in you no matter what you do?


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

Trouble said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. I've prayed for 10yrs for him to cure my Cystic Fibrosis, hasn't happend.
> Is he out there or is it some1s imagination.?


Trouble, (this is what i believe) God does everything for a reason, he knows wats best. Everything can't be perfect, (altough i hope you get better!) and yeah..


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

Just remember our minds are pretty powerful and are willing to make us beleive anything that will provide us with comfort and purpose.


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## sockbat (Sep 4, 2007)

Faith is somthing that can't be proven or disproven


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> Trouble, (this is what i believe) God does everything for a reason, he knows wats best. Everything can't be perfect, (altough i hope you get better!) and yeah..


 
So what reason does God give for genocide?
so what reason does god give for rapeing and killing of children?
So what reason does God give for fathers and mothers sexually abusing the childern? yes boys and girls?

that sort of god does not deserve belief...or respect.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Sep 4, 2007)

i once seen god in a dream, but then i looked closer and it was just santa,pfft dont thinkg there is a god


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

i reckon this life were living now is just like a testing thing (not to see if your good or anything, eg helping the lady cross the street) to see if we become christians and have faith and stuff. (sounds typical but yeah)
'after life' isnt what i believe, i just put it that this is the 'before life'

i was in this car crash. I flew through the back window of a car wen i was 9 and had 200 stiches in my head and i was almost a quadrapligict but i had 2 metal rods inserted into my neck and i also had brain injury (not anymore  ) and we just prayed and asked God to help me and walaa!


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

sockbat said:


> Faith is somthing that can't be proven or disproven


 
ummmm...duh....
Faith is something you have after youve either logically or just blindly believed something.

faith cant be disproven or proven as its a belief...........not necesarliiy a true belief.


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> So what reason does God give for genocide?
> so what reason does god give for rapeing and killing of children?
> So what reason does God give for fathers and mothers sexually abusing the childern? yes boys and girls?
> 
> that sort of god does not deserve belief...or respect.


God can take away your life because he made it, but all that does sound very harsh. Im only 12 so i dunno all the facts, but the world isnt perfect as it once was, there is sin, but in heaven theres not - sounds crony- i know..


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> i reckon this life were living now is just like a testing thing (not to see if your good or anything, eg helping the lady cross the street) to see if we become christians and have faith and stuff. (sounds typical but yeah)
> 'after life' isnt what i believe, i just put it that this is the 'before life'
> 
> i was in this car crash. I flew through the back window of a car wen i was 9 and had 200 stiches in my head and i was almost a quadrapligict but i had 2 metal rods inserted into my neck and i also had brain injury (not anymore  ) and we just prayed and asked God to help me and walaa!



but wouldnt u have thought it was for the best if u didnt get this solution. People love coincidenses and love to place as much meaning on them as we can.


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## IMSNAKEY (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Khagan I know where your coming from and I used to be their too. However with people like this
> (play it) http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62864
> coming along.........the aethiests/agnostics need to speak up if you dont want to be ruled by fundamentalist Christian laws. Its happening now with this War on terror......George Bush has said God told him to take on Iraq and Afghanistan!



you gotta remember Americans can be mentally challenged when it comes to world impacting issues (or anything that isn't contained in the states for that matter, i was once asked if i ride a kangaroo to school), bush is a cheer leading sissy who cant get through one speech without saying something stupid if there is a god his embarrassed with that dud. and that video that you posted well if that doesn't ring crusade i don't know what does.

as for the religious side of things i don't believe in a god. i believe that at one stage religious theories were used as a means of explaining things we couldn't understand (why are we here? how did we come to be? etc.) but now there are other theories that i believe to be more reasonable. 

religion can be a good thing and many people benefit from believing whether its a sick person who wants to believe in something to help them through or someone who devotes time to helping people based on religious belief. but the other side to that coin is it can also cause things like crusades jihads (sp?) and what not, where many people die for what is essentially a theory.

and as stated before everyone is entitled to believe what they want as long as they dont force there beliefs onto others.


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> i reckon this life were living now is just like a testing thing (not to see if your good or anything, eg helping the lady cross the street) to see if we become christians and have faith and stuff. (sounds typical but yeah)
> 'after life' isnt what i believe, i just put it that this is the 'before life'
> 
> i was in this car crash. I flew through the back window of a car wen i was 9 and had 200 stiches in my head and i was almost a quadrapligict but i had 2 metal rods inserted into my neck and i also had brain injury (not anymore  ) and we just prayed and asked God to help me and walaa!


 
Lucky fella.
I know this Quadraplegic who believes in God before his accident, but still beomes a Quad as of an accident.......even after praying!...does that nullify your argument?

or is it the god works in mysterious ways....yeah right.

Perhaps humans sound scientific experimentisation had something to do with you becoming well again?


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> but wouldnt u have thought it was for the best if u didnt get this solution. People love coincidenses and love to place as much meaning on them as we can.


no offence, but seeming im christian, i would of known it was right. heaps of bad stuff has happened to me and i know its right.


my suggestion guys is not to talk about religion, coz it always starts arguments


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## cement (Sep 4, 2007)

If you believe in yourself why would you need a 'someone/god' to believe in you no matter what you do?[/quote]

AHahaahhahah!!! 
Come on, I LIKE to blame others, any one but myself. I am all care but NOOO responsibility.
Hey , I know, lets use god as our excuse!!!!!
When we stuff up its cool, he will forgive me, and I need not think again, ever.


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

i dont wanna argue with anyone here


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## $NaKe PiMp (Sep 4, 2007)

well science has alot more to prove which hasnt,and probably never will
humans arnt a reliable resource unfortunantly,so either way
this topic is a dead end subject


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> God can take away your life because he made it, but all that does sound very harsh. Im only 12 so i dunno all the facts, but the world isnt perfect as it once was, there is sin, but in heaven theres not - sounds crony- i know..


 

I ask you only one question.

If their is a God would he want you to believe in him/her/it because your parents/others told you to believe, or maybe because if you didnt believe you would go to HELL....or to believe from sound reasoning and questioning?
Their are many parents/others saying their God is the right one......which God, and more importantly, HOW will you choose which is the right God.....if any?


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## firedragon (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> So what reason does God give for genocide?
> so what reason does god give for rapeing and killing of children?
> So what reason does God give for fathers and mothers sexually abusing the childern? yes boys and girls?
> 
> that sort of god does not deserve belief...or respect.


 
thats not god its the devil rember him the one that does all the evil stuff, god is the one you find on the other side of all the depression and misery you've had to cope with..... nah what a load of crap...... god was something some dude came up with a long time ago to gain power and control of all the human sheep and unfortunatly the fad stuck.


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Lucky fella.
> I know this Quadraplegic who believes in God before his accident, but still beomes a Quad as of an accident.......even after praying!...does that nullify your argument?
> 
> or is it the god works in mysterious ways....yeah right.
> ...


well as i said, not _everything_ turns out right, and im sorry to hear that your friend became a quadrapligict. 

I will never be able to dive into a pool, do most sports, rides, keep riding my motor bike, keep playing soccer, water skiing and stuff


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> no offence, but seeming im christian, i would of known it was right. heaps of bad stuff has happened to me and i know its right.
> 
> 
> my suggestion guys is not to talk about religion, coz it always starts arguments


 
Good point Riley. 
But you believe and therfore interpret as right....how do I as a person seeking the truth know if it was/is right?

As to not talking about religion as it starts arguments...thats a negative ghostrider...its people that start arguments.


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

firedragon said:


> thats not god its the devil rember him the one that does all the evil stuff, god is the one you find on the other side of all the depression and misery you've had to cope with..... nah what a load of crap...... god was something some dude came up with a long time ago to gain power and control of all the human sheep and unfortunatly the fad stuck.


here here to the first bit.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Sep 4, 2007)

You cant prove god exist or disprove it either. People say if god was real then why would there be suffering and pain,well thats because us humans made the world like it is now. Its a stupid question whoever started this discussion obviously wants arguments to happen because some believe some dont. From jordan.


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## firedragon (Sep 4, 2007)

any one seen the movie dogma best religious movie i've ever seen lol


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Good point Riley.
> But you believe and therfore interpret as right....how do I as a person seeking the truth know if it was/is right?
> 
> As to not talking about religion as it starts arguments...thats a negative ghostrider...its people that start arguments.


i go to church, youth group and learn all this stuff and it is from there that i can see that this is the truth, im not saying you have to


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## $NaKe PiMp (Sep 4, 2007)

firedragon said:


> any one seen the movie dogma best religious movie i've ever seen


anything with jay and silent bob in it gets my vote LOL


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> I ask you only one question.
> 
> If their is a God would he want you to believe in him/her/it because your parents/others told you to believe, or maybe because if you didnt believe you would go to HELL....or to believe from sound reasoning and questioning?
> Their are many parents/others saying their God is the right one......which God, and more importantly, HOW will you choose which is the right God.....if any?


my parents didnt exactly tell me to believe, i found out and made the judgement for myself, although they are christians


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

The fact is that god made the devil and invented torture etc. God is the creator of everything good and evil.

This is a bit on the side, but from what i understand of the bible (which is probably considerably more than the average christian) god seems to be rather ruthless and selfish. If the bible is true i would choose the side of satan and stick with love and compassion over domination and suppresion.


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## cement (Sep 4, 2007)

You can be spiritual but not religous.
The human is made up of three parts, physical,mental and spiritual.
This is everyone, regardless of religion or race.
You want to know the great big secret of life???????
Then strengthen all these parts. Until you die.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, have fun!!!


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

just a question for you guys, who do you think made this place? like who made the earth? the sun? reptiles? some people say 'the big bang' but what exactly made the big bang? and one of you asked what made God? - my only answer is he can do *anything, *and thats all there is to it. - i say again, thats what i believe.


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> The fact is that god made the devil and invented torture etc. God is the creator of everything good and evil.
> 
> This is a bit on the side, but from what i understand of the bible (which is probably considerably more than the average christian) god seems to be rather ruthless and selfish. If the bible is true i would choose the side of satan and stick with love and compassion over domination and suppresion.


it is the other way around! satan is completley bad, he has no love. God lets satan tempt people to do things, and for this, is how God sees who is christian and who is not tempted. God doesn't let satan ' use his 'magical' staff and start killing people!


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

reptilegirl_jordan said:


> You cant prove god exist or disprove it either. People say if god was real then why would there be suffering and pain,well thats because us humans made the world like it is now. Its a stupid question whoever started this discussion obviously wants arguments to happen because some believe some dont. From jordan.


jordan. I am looking for proof. Arguments are immaterial. 

As to proving or nor proving that God exists...I started life as a good christian Sunday school child(sortoff), and turned into a nonbeliever....Im now looking for proof as I have been the last few years, however none has materialised!
As to the argument that humans have made the world they live in now....duh!....of course they have.........didnt god allow that as of the 'apple'...but if you dont believe in God, of course humans have made the world as it is today!


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## herptrader (Sep 4, 2007)

which god are you talking about?


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

anyway i gotta go to bed, talk more in the morning


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## spoonman (Sep 4, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> lol
> 
> Who in their right mind would not see through this as a way to control the masses of people.


spot on


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

herptrader said:


> which god are you talking about?


*the *god the only real god


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

lol this thread is just dominating the whole 9:00-9:30 time on aps forums lol


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

But remember god made all the angels and gave them no free will. (Including satan). God didnt seem very compasionate in the old testament, take this bible quote for example:

_ "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. "As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the LORD your God."_ Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT


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## Retic (Sep 4, 2007)

I have no real problem if people want to believe in a God, if it makes them feel better then I guess it is good for them. Personally it makes absolutely no sense to me that people will blindly believe in something when not a single shred of evidence exists.
I do love the argument that evolution is absurd but creation is perfectly believeable LOL.


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

i dont have time to read it, but it sounds like you arent reading enough, only the parts that influence you differently


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

lol everyone probably hates me now


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## firedragon (Sep 4, 2007)

the catholics and christians seem all goody goody now but a long time ago they spent alot of time and energy trying to demolish and eradicate many other religions by burning literiture, raping women to breed out pure liniage, banned civilations from writing in their own languages killed someone for not converting and much more so how have they been any different to some of the extreamests we have now.


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## Retic (Sep 4, 2007)

Not at all, I can only speak for myself but as a devout atheist I like all people equally until they piss me off


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## Riley (Sep 4, 2007)

im not catholic, havent been baptised or anything like that


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

God seems very self centred, he is activly racist (esp in the old testiment with his chosen ppl etc.) Ive read a majority of the bible probably all of it. If u actually look into it god doesnt seem like the great guy the preachers like to say he is.


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> lol everyone probably hates me now



I most definatly do not hate u, i just love a good debate lol. I hope u dont see this as a personal attack. My apologies if you do. As far as im concerned whats said in a debate stays in a debate.


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## herptrader (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> *the *god the only real god




Perhaps Bachus the god of wine and Debauchery?

Pick your favorite god at http://www.godchecker.com no doubt there will be one to suit all your needs... unless of course you want to take total responsibility for all your existence ;-)


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## Retic (Sep 4, 2007)

I have never understood why we shouldn't discuss politics or religion. I reckon they both make good topics of discussion. 
I don't believe in any of the Gods, never had a reason to and have many more reasons not to.


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

boa said:


> I have never understood why we shouldn't discuss politics or religion. I reckon they both make good topics of discussion.



I agree boa I love discussing them.


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> i go to church, youth group and learn all this stuff and it is from there that i can see that this is the truth, im not saying you have to


 
Goodo. But if I dont learn it, Im damned to eternal damnation right?
I woulda thought with that sort of ....hell...hanging over everybody you would be trying to save us poor.....seekers of the truth...rather then saying you dont have to believe..........


Anyways.....please convince me...dont give me proof that you believe... Im asking for proof to make me believe!
Perhaps start with why you believe if your stuck for a start.


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## Retic (Sep 4, 2007)

I've always wanted a dog called QUETZALCOATL .


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Sunsets? The stripes on Zebras? - why on earth did Zebras need to evolve with fancy stripes? 

Thus, God is proved.


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## Retic (Sep 4, 2007)

Yep, you've got me there. We have a winner.


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## grimbeny (Sep 4, 2007)

Their is actually a really good explination for the stripes, i just cant remember it. I think it has somthing to do with lions being colourblind and all the zebras blending into one large mass.


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

The Greek gods were certainly the most fun... Bachus is indeed a handful of laughs. The proof that the Greek gods existed were that they came and interfered with peoples lives and had intercourse with the mortals and such.. proof enough for me.


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Is it just lions that are colourblind - or all cats (i'm not a cat person - obviously) Because, there's also no real reason for tigers to have their fancy stripes - or for the cheetahs to have spots? If none of them can see each other...

Actually - why would colourblindness affect anything - black and white stripes on zebras from memory?


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

Riley said:


> i dont have time to read it, but it sounds like you arent reading enough, only the parts that influence you differently


Believe whatever you believe.....but please......find the truth in what you believe...read it! Remember Gods truth is in the Bible...and that means ALL OF IT!


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Goodo. But if I dont learn it, Im damned to eternal damnation right?
> I woulda thought with that sort of ....hell...hanging over everybody you would be trying to save us poor.....seekers of the truth...rather then saying you dont have to believe..........
> Anyways.....please convince me...dont give me proof that you believe... Im asking for proof to make me believe!
> Perhaps start with why you believe if your stuck for a start.



I'm with you here earthling - this depresses me - immensly... I believe in God - wholeheartedly - because i went to a catholic school and I'm too scared not too. Good enough reason for you? No, me neither. However, on the same hand - I don't vote liberal....


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## IMSNAKEY (Sep 4, 2007)

serenaphoenix said:


> Is it just lions that are colourblind - or all cats (i'm not a cat person - obviously) Because, there's also no real reason for tigers to have their fancy stripes - or for the cheetahs to have spots? If none of them can see each other...
> 
> Actually - why would colourblindness affect anything - black and white stripes on zebras from memory?



i dont think the stripes on a tiger or the spots on a cheetah are used to hide from each other as much as a camouflage effect for hunting prey


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## firedragon (Sep 4, 2007)

dont forget the bible was written by a group of men and nothing against men so please dont take anything personal, the world was very male dominant back then so yah its self centered and selfish and of coufse it was eve that ate the apple what man would admit condening the human race lol again nothing against men


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Firedragon - It's very interesting to study actually - i spent about 6 months studying the portrayal of women in the bible - particularly the first testament, and starting with eve, continuing with dinah (raped but blamed for being too inquisitive) and sarah (turned into a pillar of salt i think) the daughters of lot (who seduced and fornicated with their own father) - i don't think there's a single woman mentioned in a positive light - then there's mary magdalene of course... Jesus's girl was a *****.. not looking too good really.

As for the spots and stripes? Not the single greatest camoufage - the lions do it fine without...


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

OH dear - i just realised i used a bad word!!! I'm so sorry - please don't ban me - i'm not bad - i didn't mean to.... I'm not like that....


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## Earthling (Sep 4, 2007)

serenaphoenix said:


> I'm with you here earthling - this depresses me - immensly... I believe in God - wholeheartedly - because i went to a catholic school and I'm too scared not too. Good enough reason for you? No, me neither. However, on the same hand - I don't vote liberal....


 
Tis a good start not voting Liberal....fear is a wonderfull control of the masses...the 'ol testament was made for that I feel...prove me wrong someone..before Im off to etrernal damnation.

Isnt it weird that even though you dont believe in God,just saying"I dont believe in you God" actually feels wrong as of those...brain washing parts in your life when you were young?
or is it because God really exists?

or is it because believing in a 'god' is actually a byproduct of evolutions effects on what it has made us become?


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

I can't possibly say those words ... and yet it would be easier for me if i could... you're absolutely right.

I think when i was studying genesis - my teacher and i came to the conclusion - or read somewhere or something ...

That the reason the bible was so fear driven and male orientated was to ensure the survival of the hebrew culture.. 

The women were the ones who had direct influence over the children and the children's education - as the man's job was to be the breadwinner. Thus, it was critical that the women didn't go off with men from other cultures and learn their religions and teach their sons and daughters of say.. hinduism - thus in the bible women are portrayed as sinners who need male guidance. 

Women were the **teachers** of the next generation so they had to be restrained with a judgemental inventionist male God. Certainly something along those lines.


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## Horsy (Sep 4, 2007)

Lions use the tall, dry grass as their camouflage as they hunt on the open plains. Cheetahs also use this for camouflage but their spots also blend into the trees. Tigers blend into their more jungle-like surroundings. Zebras are striped because a Lion (or whatever) will pick out one Zebra and chase that. The Zebra then runs into the remaining herd and gets lost amongst the black and white, confusing the lion and forcing her to pick another which gives the zebras more chance individually.

Now for the god topic; I don't know. Some things in the bible annoy me like how Jesus made some guy kill his whole family to prove he believed in Jesus's power and Jesus cursed a tree for not having fruit on it instead of just going to another fruit tree..

I'm an agnostic and am quite happy to be proven God exists when I die


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Horsy i think i just fell in love with you.... You may have just answered the *meaning of life* for me... Honestly... in all seriousness, one of my most infallible reasons for faith in a supreme being was the existance of Zebras.


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## skunk (Sep 4, 2007)

u saintly people shouldnt keep snakes. dont u know snakes are the devil incarnate ?? which animal tempted adam n eve ? it wasnt the dog(as hes mens best friend), or the cat or the goose. it was the snake. better give ur snakes to me.


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Please please please don't take that as sarcasm... I am quite serious.. 

How about bananas? How they have that neat little wrapper you can throw away and then a thing you can hold onto at the bottom and how the strips just rest on the outside of your hand and how they're yummy and full of potassium and vitamin B and other goodness? That seemed to me to be a good reason for divine intervention as well.


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## Horsy (Sep 4, 2007)

Hahaha. Well uh..thanks Serena 

EDIT:// As for the banana; God knows. Ask him. I'm just an avid Animal Planet watcher


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

On the contrary.... obviously the snake was God's favourite animal as he let it guard his most prized object - the tree of knowledge... 

Just accept that women are evil and easily tempted by shiny things... she was probably just listening to the snake because she thought it was sexy and amazing and beautiful... Eve was probably a budding herpologist.


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Ah shame.. the banana will forever be a secret to me..


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## Horsy (Sep 4, 2007)

Serena, I think I just fell in love with you for that post. Let's get married now. Haha


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## raxor (Sep 4, 2007)

Hehehehe way to cause contraversy in the reptile forum.

Do you believe in a higher deity? Where did the universe come from? Why do we exist? Why can we feel, hear, sense, taste? Is it all imagination, whose imagination would it be? What is nothing, and how can there be nothing when we are something? What is outside the universe? If nothing is outside the universe, how can something exist inside nothing?

Philosophising freaks me out.. I can't understand how our Universe can be ever expanding but contained in nothing, it doesn't make sense. Also why would a "god" create us, "god" would have to be contained inside something (as far as our physics goes?).. and the something containing god would have to be contained inside something and so on and so forth..


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## Horsy (Sep 4, 2007)

Why do we exist? Haven't you heard the one-cell theory? All life on earth came from one single cell that came here on a Meteor. That one cell multiplied, became bacteria, became plankton, became fish, etc, etc. Evolution, Raxor =D


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Haha - okay horsy... i'll find a zebra and wrap a red bow around its neck for the wedding... good night all..


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## Horsy (Sep 4, 2007)

I'll just paint my grey horse with black stripes. Good night


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 4, 2007)

Raxor just gave me a reason to leave this thread - philosophy is amazing and a lot of fun... and you have some great stuff there raxor... i hope you have centuries of fun thinking about questions with no answers - but cheeses - 10.30 on a tuesday in a reptile forum is not the time nor the place.


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## raxor (Sep 4, 2007)

Horsy said:


> Why do we exist? Haven't you heard the one-cell theory? All life on earth came from one single cell that came here on a Meteor. That one cell multiplied, became bacteria, became plankton, became fish, etc, etc. Evolution, Raxor =D




But where did the first cell come from?!????


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## cris (Sep 4, 2007)

skunk said:


> u saintly people shouldnt keep snakes. dont u know snakes are the devil incarnate ?? which animal tempted adam n eve ? it wasnt the dog(as hes mens best friend), or the cat or the goose. it was the snake. better give ur snakes to me.



Well technically it was probably a varanid at the point of the evil act, as they evolved into snakes(most likely) when god ripped their legs of in an angry tantrum when the 'snake' gave away some of his stash.


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## cris (Sep 4, 2007)

raxor said:


> But where did the first cell come from?!????


I found it in my pocket.


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## raxor (Sep 4, 2007)

serenaphoenix said:


> Raxor just gave me a reason to leave this thread - philosophy is amazing and a lot of fun... and you have some great stuff there raxor... i hope you have centuries of fun thinking about questions with no answers - but cheeses - 10.30 on a tuesday in a reptile forum is not the time nor the place.




hehe too right. I choose a nice, warm, lazy summer day in the middle of a clearing in the national park to think about this crap. But hey.. typing is awesome too


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## Horsy (Sep 4, 2007)

raxor said:


> But where did the first cell come from?!????



I told you; a meteor. Which probably came from another planet that has/had life on it.


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## lilmissrazz (Sep 4, 2007)

ok so ill start by saying i have no idea what i believe to tell you the truth... i dont mind talking about religion coz its interesting... to a point. But its kind of convenient that diff parts of the world have adapted their own "gods" with certain rules that pertain to what is acceptable and what is not... ive had this discussion a few times and someone once said to me that they believed that religion was a scare tactic to keep people in line (dont ask me who these surposed people where who created these religions).... eg if you do this you will go to the worst place imaginable.... if you do what i ask you will be granted passage to "heaven" ... its a sin to have multiple sexual partners, etc etc .... I've heard of religions calling certain illnesses "punishment" for things. My cousins who is very religious told me that women should not teach.... i cant say that i have ever read that anywhere ... but it struck me as odd as I've been brought up in a time when women ARE equals to men... The one thing i dont understand is how people can live their life by a book written so long ago .... what a huge game of chinese whispers .... just imagine thousands of years from now some story we tell our children to keep them away from temptation or things we dont want them to do/see becoming so influential that people live by those tales..... im not having a stab or a go at anyone that is just what flows thru my mind when religion comes up... I want to believe that someone is watching over us and keeping us safe but for now I'm watching whats right in front of me and enjoying my life... its the only one i'm gunna have lol


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## mcloughlin2 (Sep 4, 2007)

If you want proof you need to find it yourself. You need to have faith. You need to find the proof you require through your own research. I could rattle of some points for why you should believe in god but i won't because it still wouldn't be enough. to believe you must have faith. To have faith you must believe. To do both these things you must find out for yourself.

Just one thing however, if god was to fix all problems faced in the world then don't you think we would be doomed anyway? If he saved everyone do you not think that we would then over populate the world and destroy ourselves? Some people die, while others survive. God can't save us all because then all the good things that have been done would be for nothing. 

Sorry if this doesn't make sense but its getting late and I'm tired.


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## raxor (Sep 4, 2007)

Horsy said:


> I told you; a meteor. Which probably came from another planet that has/had life on it.



Yea but.. where did that meteor come from? Where did the planet that the meteor came from come from? Everything is derived from something, but there had to be some sort of beginning. But how does a beginning come from nothing? If nothing exists how can it create something?


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## skunk (Sep 4, 2007)

cris !!! too right !!!!!! i should be ashamed of myself... then again i never really payed much attention in sunday school... & only old grannies attend my local church !!!


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## Horsy (Sep 4, 2007)

Just go read about the "Big Bang" theory. THe universe just spontaniously combusted. That's good enough.


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## mr black (Sep 4, 2007)

serenaphoenix said:


> Please please please don't take that as sarcasm... I am quite serious..
> 
> How about bananas? How they have that neat little wrapper you can throw away and then a thing you can hold onto at the bottom and how the strips just rest on the outside of your hand and how they're yummy and full of potassium and vitamin B and other goodness? That seemed to me to be a good reason for divine intervention as well.



Not the banana defence...

[video=youtube;aLqQttJinjo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLqQttJinjo[/video]


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## raxor (Sep 4, 2007)

That video didn't answer any of my questions!


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## cris (Sep 4, 2007)

taken from the smokingnug.com PMSL


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## lilmissrazz (Sep 4, 2007)

that clip has opened my eyes thanks you mr black lol


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## skunk (Sep 4, 2007)

lol mr black. thatts Awesome !!!!!


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## skunk (Sep 4, 2007)

oh by the way, which church do u preach at ? what time is the service ? if snakes are welcomed, (or varanids) count me in !


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## beesagtig (Sep 4, 2007)

Cant be bothered to read all of this so sorry if someone already said this but, it goes like this...


_"The argument goes like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."_
_"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED."_
_"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn’t thought of that," and promptly disappears in a puff of logic._
_"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."_

_
Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy by Douglas Adams

Therefore god does not exist
_


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## skunk (Sep 4, 2007)

for the record, i do believe in God.


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## mr black (Sep 4, 2007)

raxor said:


> That video didn't answer any of my questions!



I haven't read the whole thread, what questions in particular?


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## raxor (Sep 4, 2007)

Errm.. my questions about why your mum?


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## Hickson (Sep 4, 2007)

Ten pages in and Earthlings original question has not been answered the way she would have liked.

And I doubt it will be - what is proof for one person might not be enough proof for another. It's up to the individual.

I now closing this thread. For those of you interested in the subject matter, you might want to google the phrase "ontological argument" - plenty of reading material on the subject.



HIx


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