# She's pregnant, but she's a man



## Hetty (Mar 28, 2008)

A man is reportedly pregnant with a baby girl.
US man Thomas Beatie and his wife were expecting their first child in July, US news service TransWorldNews reports.
Mr Beatie, from the state of Oregon, was born a woman but had a sex change in which he had chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy, but no change to his reproductive organs, TransWorldNews said.
He stopped taking testosterone injections to get pregnant, he reportedly wrote in an article for _The Advocate_, a magazine for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender readers.
Doctors had refused to treat him. One sent Mr Beatie to "the clinic's psychologist to see if we were fit to bring a child into this world and consulted with the ethics board of his hospital" , the article said.
Mr Beatie admitted his situation "sparks legal, political and social unknowns", TransWorldNews said.

Mr Beatie said he and his wife, Nancy, resorted to home insemination after buying an anonymous donor's sperm from a cryogenic sperm bank.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/03/26/1206207150619.html?from=top5


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## Chrisreptile (Mar 28, 2008)

i saw that on the news, its not something you see everyday lol.


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## Hetty (Mar 28, 2008)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3628860.ece

That one has pictures


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## method (Mar 28, 2008)

Bluuurrgggghhhhhhhhhhhh


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

That's completely mental. Plastic woman living in plastic reality has plastic baby. Poor little bugger doesnt stand much chance of living in the real world with a "mother" like that. Some kids these days want cosmetic surgery and still got lots of growing to do. I swear with every new generation we are getting further away from reality and mother earth. I point and wave my plastic finger disparagingly at them all.


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## Earthling (Mar 28, 2008)

An Individual standing up and living their life.....All Good.


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## Fiona74 (Mar 28, 2008)

All hyped up by the media. Its not a 'man' having a baby, its a woman! She is a woman! Its not like she was born with a penis and testes etc and then became pregnant. Her plumbing is all woman, just because she had her breasts removed and was taking hormones doesn't make her suddenly not a woman. There are alot of women out there who are flat chested and have a bit of extra body hair. For gods sake, anyone would would think this was some sort of 'miracle'. Its a crock!


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## mrmikk (Mar 28, 2008)

Exactly, female reporductive organs means she is a woman.


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## missllama (Mar 28, 2008)

what the hell...
imagine some lad walking around with a pregnant belly 
thats just wierd


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## missllama (Mar 28, 2008)

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
I Just Saw The Photo Of Him
Yuck


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## missllama (Mar 28, 2008)

i have nothing against gays etc
but that photo just creeps me out to the max
it just looks wierd
i wonder what he will tell the kid when it grows up and it sees photos of his dad pregnant
haha wieeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd


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## waruikazi (Mar 28, 2008)

I thought there was gonna be a miracle way to stop women moaning about men not understanding child birth :lol:.

Good on 'em. Mor epower to this couple, the more babies in this world the better.


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## jessb (Mar 28, 2008)

I would have thought that one of the reasons to have a sex change was that you no longer wanted to be identified with your birth gender. Giving birth is THE most female, womanly thing anyone can do, so I would ask what reason this transexual had for choosing to have become a man in the first place!

Just a note, with transexuals (pre-op or post-op) they are generally referred to by their chosen gender, rather than their biological/birth one. Whether it is legally recognised or not (grey area) it is generally accepted that when someone chooses to live their life as a particular gender, then that is how society should recognise them. Just because Thomas Beatie still has female organs, he lives as a man so should be recognised as such...


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## Hetty (Mar 28, 2008)

I wonder what they'll do on the birth certificate. I assume Thomas will take on the fatherly role and his wife the motherly role, but I wonder if they'll let that be put on the birth certificate.


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

I believe most cosmetic surgery and "trans gender" people have psychological problems and need a straight jacket and a head doctor more than operations and hormones. Just my opinion. You can say it is their right but things are getting silly. ie pubescent girls wanting implants, where do you draw the line and give people psychological help rather than cosmetic surgery/mutilations? We have all seen famous people that get so much surgery that they look like unnatural mutants from planet Zarg, and they keep getting more and more and believe they are getting prettier hehe.


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## grimbeny (Mar 28, 2008)

Szepp said:


> I believe most cosmetic surgery and "trans gender" people have psychological problems and need a straight jacket and a head doctor more than operations and hormones. Just my opinion..



I beleive you are looking at this from an ignorant stand point. As someone who identifies with social abnormality i know no 'straight jacket' or 'head doctor' is going to be able to cure these people of their desires. And once you have come to that understanding it is important to see that they should live their life to the fullest. 

Teens wanting bigger breasts etc. is a completly seperate issues, they are not sinonimos.


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## Hetty (Mar 28, 2008)

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/03/28/1206207348809.html <-- could be a hoax.

Szepp, try to put yourself in their shoes. You're male, what if you were born in a womans body? You would probably still feel male. This is what these people have to deal with, and surgery can help fix those feelings.


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

I think you are wrong grimbeny. and i dont think i am ignorant. I think people wanting to mutilate themselves for cosmetic purposes is not sane. She will never become a man, just an aberration of a woman. I respect your opinion that everybody should do what makes them happy but there is a line. I group this example to teens wanting bigger breasts and people that become happy doing self harm with razors etc. Being political correct about it wont help anyone. Most people in all these circumstances want to be different and stand out from the crowd even if it means they are freaks. I expect most have overly indulged in some emotional trauma and created engrams and reinforced them. This is the cause of what i call a problem, you may call it a minor inconvenience that can be fixed with hormones and mutilations. This woman needs a psychiatrists, bottom line. Not political correct "i respect her right to be a man".


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## caustichumor (Mar 28, 2008)

There was an episode of South Park featuring "Mrs Garrison" which pretty much summed this up....


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## grimbeny (Mar 28, 2008)

Have you got any evidence to suggest this problem can be fixed by a psychiatrist. Why do you link this to emotional childhood trauma. You are way out of your depth.


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

Hetty said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/03/28/1206207348809.html <-- could be a hoax.
> 
> Szepp, try to put yourself in their shoes. You're male, what if you were born in a womans body? You would probably still feel male. This is what these people have to deal with, and surgery can help fix those feelings.



I cant put myself in their shoes. As it is all in their head, nothing to do with being wrong mind in wrong body. I studied zoology for 4 years and always been interested in nature, and this is noting to do with the real world nature. Just people indulging in ridiculous thoughts over a long time until the believe in something wonkey. ie Anybody can indulge in any thought and have a fetish for ears or furniture or whatever. Generally i say good luck to them if they dont hurt themselves or others. But at the end of the day it is all in their head and if it becomes very bizarre or dangerous i suggest they need psychiatric help.

Occasionally people like this lady have hormonal problems compounding psychological ones and a good doctor will prescribe female HRT to her not male hormones.


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## grimbeny (Mar 28, 2008)

You are wrong, plain and simple.


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Have you got any evidence to suggest this problem can be fixed by a psychiatrist. Why do you link this to emotional childhood trauma. You are way out of your depth.



well its better a psychiatrist to help people in that situation than Dr Riviera from the Simpson's selling her the drugs or operations she wants, while in a bizarre state of mind. It is all in the head, and if you deviate from the "norm" far enough you must realize that there is a problem.


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> You are wrong, plain and simple.



lol that showed me. such a convincing prophetic argument you put forward to disprove me.

this is becoming a bit silly, and time to do something sensible..................


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## redbellybite (Mar 28, 2008)

YOU FAILED TO UNDERSTAND SZEPP that this person in her head felt like a man still feels like a man other then the fact of him still keeping his womb which like was said doesnt get removed even after surgery its a choice thing by the individual and now was probabley a good thing because his wife WHO CANT HAVE CHILDREN because her womb was removed wether it was removed from an illness or life threatning cancer who knows why but now they both can have a child of their own they are going to raise it as father/ mother and when the little girl is of an age that she can understand they may choose to tell her instead of looking at him as a freak look at him as a sea horse .............males birth in that animal world and emus and ostriches and cassorwaries -males incubate and look after the babies so whats the difference ........think out of the square and you may realise we live in a unique world and thank god we dont all think the same otherwise what a boring world it would be ..........RBB


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

I disagree RBB. She is a woman and will always be a woman, even with surgery and hormones. I think i am lobster trapped in a human body, i can get an exoskeleton suit stuck on and extra limbs and paint myself red, but i will never be a lobster. In my head i am a lobster but only because i am weirded out. 

I believe that some things are irrefutably real and cannot be denied like hunger, cold, heat etc and somethings are imaginary like fashion, "i am a man trapped in a womans body". manifest reality vs imaginary throughts


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## Miss B (Mar 28, 2008)

Easy for you to say, Szepp. 

Sure, they're all crazies, let's just lock them up in a mental institution...


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## grimbeny (Mar 28, 2008)

Why do you think that?


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## ishka (Mar 28, 2008)

> Your mind is like a parachute, it only works when open.



It's your sig Szepp... just something for you to have a think about.

Cheers,
Ishka


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## redbellybite (Mar 28, 2008)

it was a sin many moons ago for a man to do handwashing(wink wink) but lucky for all you blokes the square was opened and was considered your normal .........times change peoples thinkings get broader and things evolve ........szepp you would have been one of those gooses who thought the world was flat .........RBB now if you are a lobster i have a boiling pot you can jump right into


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## Szepp (Mar 28, 2008)

Miss B said:


> Easy for you to say, Szepp.
> 
> Sure, they're all crazies, let's just lock them up in a mental institution...



not at all Miss B. All i am suggesting is that it would be good if they could somehow accept their lot in life. If someone is born one sex but wants to be another it is a big problem for them emotionally and physically, and i am sure some can be helped to accept the reality of their birth and can become happy whether heterosexually or homosexually. 

I have a dear friend that was born with disabled legs, this is a "real" problem that cant be imagined away, however she has overcome it emotionally and is a world class fencer and into many sports and adventurous activities. And it annoys me that some people imagine problems for themselves, 1/2 of them seeking attention and 1/2 because the live in an artificial reality.

i am going to sleep as it is late here.


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## Tsidasa (Mar 28, 2008)

Why didn't Nancy have the baby


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## Miss B (Mar 28, 2008)

She had a hysterectomy.



Szepp said:


> not at all Miss B. All i am suggesting is that it would be good if they could somehow accept their lot in life. If someone is born one sex but wants to be another it is a big problem for them emotionally and physically, and i am sure some can be helped to accept the reality of their birth and can become happy whether heterosexually or homosexually.


 
Well, for starters - transgender has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. Transgender is simply being born one sex, but identifying as another. A transgender person can be gay, straight, bi, etc. It could be someone who is born a man yet identifies as a gay woman, or it could be someone born as a woman who identifies as a straight man, etc.

I think it's a bit naive to say "they should just accept the way they are", or that they are seeking attention or living in an artificial reality. You should watch a documentary or two on the issue - it's rather fascinating and I think you'll see there is a lot more involved than people just randomly deciding they 'want' to live their live as some other gender.


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## raxor (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm glad we live in an open minded society and people like szepp are a dying breed...


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## Gecko :) (Mar 28, 2008)

Im sure the kid wont grow up being confused at all!?


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## caustichumor (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok so where does an open minded society end?


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## raxor (Mar 28, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> Ok so where does an open minded society end?




..with goat-human baby hybrids. Aww they would be such adorable kids


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## Fiona74 (Mar 28, 2008)

It seems this person wants the best of both worlds.'I'm a woman but I want to be a guy so i will remove my breasts and take hormones' 'oh hang on, I want to be a woman again because.......' 
It seems it is a phsycological issue because if she was 100% sure she wanted to be a man, why has she still got her female reproductive organs? Why hasn't she gone all the way and had a penis constructed? Maybe she is not 100% sure, maybe councelling would help instead of having a baby.


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## DiamondAsh (Mar 28, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> Ok so where does an open minded society end?


 

When political correctness gets the wedgie it deserves and we have the right to express our opinion, and not be told it's the wrong way to think. :|


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## Earthling (Mar 28, 2008)

dino the horse said:


> It seems this person wants the best of both worlds.'I'm a woman but I want to be a guy so i will remove my breasts and take hormones' 'oh hang on, I want to be a woman again because.......'
> It seems it is a phsycological issue because if she was 100% sure she wanted to be a man, why has she still got her female reproductive organs? Why hasn't she gone all the way and had a penis constructed? Maybe she is not 100% sure, maybe councelling would help instead of having a baby.


 
Having a penis is not being a man. Its whats 'inside' that counts. 

The reason stated that he is having a baby is because “Sterilisation is not a requirement for sex reassignment, so I decided to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy but kept my reproductive rights,” he writes. “Wanting to have a biological child is neither a male nor female desire but a human desire.”

Fair call I believe. Paid off too, with his partner not able to have children....


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## Kathryn_ (Mar 28, 2008)

Dino: the penis that is constructed when a woman has a gender reassignment is completely non-functional - this man probaly still wanted to be able to have sex with his partner, which is something almost everybody in a relationship could relate to. This is compromise that a lot of people in this situation have to make so that they can continue to have any kind of sex life. 

I question the veracity of this story only because there are certain inconsistencies in the original article - under my understanding of US law, pre-operative transsexuals are legally their birth gender, and as such, cannot be legally married to a person of their own physical sex, yet this man is claiming the be legally male and legally married to a woman, while still having his female reproductive organs. I don't think this can be true.


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## Fiona74 (Mar 28, 2008)

I agree wanting to have a child is a 'human' desire. But after conception, carrying a baby for 40 weeks can ONLY be done by a woman. So, is this person a man or a woman? I agree it has worked out well for them considering his wife can't have kids. 
The whole thing about this is it is all hyped up 'man is pregnant'. My point again is it is not a man that is pregnant, it is a woman who feels like a man. 
MEN (as in the original born-with-a-penis-and-testes-no-uterus) CANNOT HAVE BABIES! I just hate how the media carry on about it.


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## Earthling (Mar 28, 2008)

Szepp said:


> I think you are wrong grimbeny. and i dont think i am ignorant.*1 *I think people wanting to mutilate themselves for cosmetic purposes is not sane. *2* She will never become a man, just an aberration of a woman. I respect your opinion that everybody should do what makes them happy but there is a line. *3* I group this example to teens wanting bigger breasts and people that become happy doing self harm with razors etc. Being political correct about it wont help anyone. Most people in all these circumstances want to be different and stand out from the crowd even if it means they are freaks. *4* I expect most have overly indulged in some emotional trauma and created engrams and reinforced them. This is the cause of what i call a problem, you may call it a minor inconvenience that can be fixed with hormones and mutilations.* 5* This woman needs a psychiatrists, bottom line. Not political correct "i respect her right to be a man".


 
Szepp you are wrong on a number of counts.
*1*. Mr Beatie did not mutilate himself. He surgically had his breasts removed and apart from some minor scaring is very far from mutilation. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3628860.ece.
*2*. Mr Beatie is a man and legally recognised as such. "Mr Beatie was born female, named Tracy Lagondino, but had gender reassignment surgery and is now legally male and married to a woman."
*3*. Self harm is typically causing yourself physical pain to remove yourself psychologically from intolerable emotional pain you are suffering. Far removed from Mr Beatie having gender reassignment surgery which is typically done when under anesthetic. 
Regarding your example of teen breast enhancement as similar to Gender Reassignment Surgery.....Teens need mum and dads permission and money and bang its done. Mr Beatie needed a minimum duration of psychological evaluation and living as a member of the target gender full time, sometimes called the real life experience (RLE) or real life test (RLT) before SRS is permitted. Very bad analogy you have used their. HUUUUGE Difference.
*4*. Regarding your theory that "I expect most have overly indulged in some emotional trauma and created engrams and reinforced them." What you have explained their is typically called 'Post Traumatic Stress'. When an individual has Gender Reassignment Surgery, they must first go through a thorough duration of psychological evaluation and actual living as a member of the target gender full time. If their is a 'problem' such as you foresee, it would be picked up in the ongoing psychological evaluation and appropriate action would be taken. 
*5.* Yes he probably does need proffesional help, but not for the reasons you think. He will need help to assist him in dealing with ignorance promoted in peoples views such as yourself and expressed towards him. To be strong amongst this sort of ignorance and to decide what he has, he is proving himself very much to be a 'man'.
*6*. Szepp from what you have said, are you a scientologist?


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## Szepp (Mar 29, 2008)

I am trying to understand the world i live in the best i can with an honest open mind. This does not mean to casually accept prevailing politically correct version of reality presented my media, schools and churches. I accept i am FAR from omnipitant but i try understand the best i can attempting to perceive the world i live in directly. Hence my quote "your mind is like a parachute, it only works when open". This DOES not mean that i want to blindly accept other peoples morals and world views as you may think this quote means. If you do, instead your mantra should be "life is such monotony without a good lobotomy", preferring to accept other peoples morals and opinions without being fully conscious and sentient.

How dare somebody like me make up my own mind for myself using my own experiences and understandings? I was foolish to stick my head above the parapet and express my opinion, rightly or wrongly. But i think i owe it to the original bacterial life form and billions of years of evolution as it is my right to strive to be conscious and sentient. You could argue that it is also the *ladies* right in this story and others like *her* and you are right, each to their own. However the crux of what i am saying is some things are part of an irrefutable reality that cannot be denied and other things are mearly constructs of over indulging ego's that do not exist in any shape or form out with a self deceiving mind. So i will keep my views to myself in the future to avoid an angry mob of political correct zombies chasing me with fire and kindling (joke btw). People like *her* have merely indulged to the nth degree, anybody can believe in anything they want; aliens, gods, leprechauns, armpit fetish or anything, but it doesn't mean that it is part of manifest reality. To them it may be part of their personal reality, but i am more interested in the reality and nature of the world.

I am not religious or a "scientologists" and don't subscribe to any faith or religion or organization. Admitidly i am a fool, but i do the best i can to perceive the world for myself using my own mind, when i am wrong it is MY mistake and i accept full responsibility for it.

*I must create a system or be enslaved by another 
 man's; 
I will not reason and compare: my business is to 
 create. *

Which is better: to have Fun with Fungi or to have Idiocy with Ideology, to have Wars because of Words, to have Tomorrow's Misdeeds out of Yesterday's Miscreeds?


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## Szepp (Mar 29, 2008)

I am trying to understand the world i live in the best i can with an honest open mind. This does not mean to casually accept prevailing politically correct version of reality presented my media, schools and churches. I accept i am FAR from omnipitant but i try understand the best i can attempting to perceive the world i live in directly. Hence my quote "your mind is like a parachute, it only works when open". This DOES not mean that i want to blindly accept other peoples morals and world views as you may think this quote means. If you do, instead your mantra should be "life is such monotony without a good lobotomy", preferring to accept other peoples morals and opinions without being fully conscious and sentient.

How dare somebody like me make up my own mind for myself using my own experiences and understandings? I was foolish to stick my head above the parapet and express my opinion, rightly or wrongly. But i think i owe it to the original bacterial life form and billions of years of evolution as it is my right to strive to be conscious and sentient. You could argue that it is also the *ladies* right in this story and others like *her* and you are right, each to their own. However the crux of what i am saying is some things are part of an irrefutable reality that cannot be denied and other things are mearly constructs of over indulging ego's that do not exist in any shape or form out with a self deceiving mind. So i will keep my views to myself in the future to avoid an angry mob of political correct zombies chasing me with fire and kindling (joke btw). People like *her* have merely indulged to the nth degree, anybody can believe in anything they want; aliens, gods, leprechauns, armpit fetish or anything, but it doesn't mean that it is part of manifest reality. To them it may be part of their personal reality, but i am more interested in the reality and nature of the world.

I am not religious or a "scientologists" and don't subscribe to any faith or religion or organization. Admitidly i am a fool, but i do the best i can to perceive the world for myself using my own mind, when i am wrong it is MY mistake and i accept full responsibility for it.

*I must create a system or be enslaved by another 
 man's; 
I will not reason and compare: my business is to 
 create. *

Which is better: to have Fun with Fungi or to have Idiocy with Ideology, to have Wars because of Words, to have Tomorrow's Misdeeds out of Yesterday's Miscreeds?


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## Australis (Mar 29, 2008)

I imagine they made some good coin out of the media circus ... *ponders*


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## gillsy (Mar 29, 2008)

Szepp said:


> I believe most cosmetic surgery and "trans gender" people have psychological problems and need a straight jacket and a head doctor more than operations and hormones. Just my opinion. You can say it is their right but things are getting silly. ie pubescent girls wanting implants, where do you draw the line and give people psychological help rather than cosmetic surgery/mutilations? We have all seen famous people that get so much surgery that they look like unnatural mutants from planet Zarg, and they keep getting more and more and believe they are getting prettier hehe.


 

I wouldn't comment on something you know nothing about.

For all senses of a word, if someone has a sex change they are no longer what they started.

I know many people who have had sex changes, and they live successful lives with no emotional or psycological issues. 

If they want to be parents, it's people like you who will cause them any issues not the general world.


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## gillsy (Mar 29, 2008)

dino the horse said:


> It seems this person wants the best of both worlds.'I'm a woman but I want to be a guy so i will remove my breasts and take hormones' 'oh hang on, I want to be a woman again because.......'
> It seems it is a phsycological issue because if she was 100% sure she wanted to be a man, why has she still got her female reproductive organs? Why hasn't she gone all the way and had a penis constructed? Maybe she is not 100% sure, maybe councelling would help instead of having a baby.


 
Maybe, but they are very very expensive operations.

They generally have it in stages, when a male changes to female they my order of most doctors are told to get breats first as that is the easiest thing to fix if they change their mind.

There are many reason why she hasn't had the full op yet.


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## MandC (Mar 29, 2008)

I read this story of a women who was born with both genders (i am not going to attempt to spell it lol), and she decided to be a women as having the two was messing with her head. in that case she was doing what was best for her so not every gender surgery is for the bad.... just everyone has a different reason.


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## dazza294 (Mar 29, 2008)

*weird*

help im a lesbian trapped in a mans body (does that make me weird):lol:


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## Fiona74 (Mar 29, 2008)

gillsy said:


> Maybe, but they are very very expensive operations.
> 
> They generally have it in stages, when a male changes to female they my order of most doctors are told to get breats first as that is the easiest thing to fix if they change their mind.
> 
> There are many reason why she hasn't had the full op yet.


I see your point. Either way I hope it works out for them and their baby. I wonder if she will complete her transformation after having the baby. Not saying she should, just wondering.


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## Earthling (Mar 29, 2008)

Szepp said:


> I am trying to understand the world i live in the best i can with an honest open mind. This does not mean to casually accept prevailing politically correct version of reality presented my media, schools and churches. I accept i am FAR from omnipitant but i try understand the best i can attempting to perceive the world i live in directly. Hence my quote "your mind is like a parachute, it only works when open". This DOES not mean that i want to blindly accept other peoples morals and world views as you may think this quote means. If you do, instead your mantra should be "life is such monotony without a good lobotomy", preferring to accept other peoples morals and opinions without being fully conscious and sentient.
> 
> How dare somebody like me make up my own mind for myself using my own experiences and understandings? I was foolish to stick my head above the parapet and express my opinion, rightly or wrongly. But i think i owe it to the original bacterial life form and billions of years of evolution as it is my right to strive to be conscious and sentient. You could argue that it is also the *ladies* right in this story and others like *her* and you are right, each to their own. However the crux of what i am saying is some things are part of an irrefutable reality that cannot be denied and other things are mearly constructs of over indulging ego's that do not exist in any shape or form out with a self deceiving mind. So i will keep my views to myself in the future to avoid an angry mob of political correct zombies chasing me with fire and kindling (joke btw). People like *her* have merely indulged to the nth degree, anybody can believe in anything they want; aliens, gods, leprechauns, armpit fetish or anything, but it doesn't mean that it is part of manifest reality. To them it may be part of their personal reality, but i am more interested in the reality and nature of the world.
> 
> ...


 


Interesting speech Szepp. 
One thing I feel is out of balance though. 

Whilst you percieve "it is my right to strive to be conscious and sentient", what makes your reality/view anymore important or 'right' then someone elses reality/view? Because you say it is so?.............................

Does a Tai-chi Master not accept the reality and show disrespect to an 7th Dan Aikidoist's reality or a beginner 5th kyu Aikidoist for that matter? No, they usually accept the other persons reality and path as right for them and show the proper respect. 

Something you are not showing towards other peoples reality.


"Im not concerned with your liking or disliking me.....all I ask is that you respect me as a human being." Jackie Robinson


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## mcloughlin2 (Mar 29, 2008)

Thats just plain wrong. Explaining to a child, that their daddy, is there mummy is going to cause alot of confusing. I would be more then understanding if they were both females (In every aspect) and they wanted children - as that can be explained easier. However when it comes to a situation like this, well lets just say I'm glad I'm not the child who will have to learn to understand this. :shock:


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## Szepp (Mar 30, 2008)

Earthling said:


> Interesting speech Szepp.
> One thing I feel is out of balance though.
> 
> Whilst you percieve "it is my right to strive to be conscious and sentient", what makes your reality/view anymore important or 'right' then someone elses reality/view? Because you say it is so?.............................
> ...



Fair comment, i hope it doesnt sound tooo arrogant and conceited. I try to be agnostic about everything, but there are somethings that i think are complete bull that i try to ignore but occasionally outburst in a crazed rant 0^o. 

However what i mean is some realities are real and others are unreal or less real, ie if i am stuck up a mountain and it is cold, windy and snowing and i am wearing nothing but a woolly hat (probably not on my head, hehe), i cant change my perception and disregard the cold. On the other hand i may think wearing combat trousers really uncool and greasy then my fav "pop" star wares them and all of a sudden i think it is really cool so easy to change my perception of fashion, which i think is entirely unreal. The real function of clothes is to stop you dying from the cold and protect from elements, the unreal function that is completely imaginary is fashion. Some thing are not as clearcut but what i am saying about homosexuality as it is quite fashionable now with famous tv, film music stars flaunting it. Also it is proven that there is pretty much no homosexual gene(s) and is is almost entirely cultural/social. And the crux of my inane rant is that the *lady* has for whatever reasons intellectually chose her path and took it to the extreme and nobody is born homosexual and good luck to her. 
I am sure i would make a good circus freak, but a few near death experiences (mountain climbing accidents and drowning ) has made me re-evaluate everything and has left me with an extremely low tolerance for *******op like fashion, "i am a man trapped in a womans body", obsessive sport/soap opera fans, organized religions etc etc as they all reek of crap to me. Just me trying to find my own path, that doesn't involve chopping of my reproductive organs or falling off of cliffs anymore hehe.

"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake,since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is no different than murder. "
Albert Einstein 

Conventional people are roused to fury by departures from convention, largely because they regard such departures as a criticism of themselves. 
Bertrand Russell

There is only one step from the sublime to the ridiculous
Napoleon Bonaparte

In the sphere of thought, absurdity and perversity remain the masters of the world, and their dominion is suspended only for brief periods.
Arthur Schopenhauer

"If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it."
Albert Einstein 

There are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil.
Alfred North Whitehead 

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
Albert Einstein 

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe , a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of internal linkprison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty... We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive."
Albert Einstein


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## redbellybite (Mar 30, 2008)

AS long as the child is bought up in a loving enviroment regardless of how she came to be i am sure after all that will be told to her she will be grateful ......better then being bought up or should i say dragged up by some 2 bit junkie who,s baby is left too its own devices because the parents are off their gutz and incoherrant or even in a worse case where they are selling their child for money to buy drugs ..now thats a life style that alot of kids live and thats with hetrosexual parents........i think I would rather be that little girl ............RBB


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## Szepp (Mar 31, 2008)

Sure it would be better brought up with 2 mothers in a loving environment. Although the child will never know her genetic father that was bought in a plastic tub and i expect will need to be rubber skinned to go though school. Likewise it was better for aboriginal children to be systematically taken away from their parents and forbidden to practice their culture and brought up in strict catholic missionaries than for the children to be shot like dogs as many others were. Point being neither case is ideal or natural.

Homosexuals having children is like vegetarians eating fish and chicken thinking because they are not red meat the can still be called vegetarians. Choosing to be homosexual sort of means you have forsaken your natural right to have children, however the natural maternal/paternal instinct cant imagined away like heterosexuality as there is are strong evolutionary driving forces in most people to want offspring, even if it means buying and keeping a bucket of sperm in the fridge. I bet Darwin never imagined that 1 hehe. How far removed from nature can we get? Plastic realities for plastic people ftw.


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## grimbeny (Mar 31, 2008)

Why do you think being homosexual is a lifestyle choice?


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## Hetty (Mar 31, 2008)

Oh, that's hilarious!

Just shows how ignorant you are Szepp.


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## Oenpelli-Girl (Mar 31, 2008)

what about the baby she/he is gonna cop it i hope its not real, i fell sorry


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## Miss B (Mar 31, 2008)

Szepp I think it's probably best if you try to refrain from commenting on things you clearly know nothing about. The fact that you think being homosexual is a choice only serves to further demonstrate your ignorance.


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## waruikazi (Mar 31, 2008)

Szepp if you truly beleve that sexuality is a choice then choose to be gay or bi for a day in your life. 

The same as you can not make yourself attracted to men, people who identify as gay can not make themselves not attracted to people of the same sex. 

It is not a choice and there is nothing wrong with it.


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## DiamondAsh (Mar 31, 2008)

Congrats on winning the flaming war there with some really compelling arguments RBB. Step away from your keyboard snipering for a minute and think to yourself, 'why can only a man and a woman pro-create?' Does Szepp's argument now seem out of wack?


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## waruikazi (Mar 31, 2008)

DiamondAsh said:


> Congrats on winning the flaming war there with some really compelling arguments RBB. Step away from your keyboard snipering for a minute and think to yourself, 'why can only a man and a woman pro-create?' Does Szepp's argument now seem out of wack?



Tell that to the Bynoe's gekoes. Now who's argument is whack!?


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## waruikazi (Mar 31, 2008)

tehehehe


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## DiamondAsh (Mar 31, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> Tell that to the Bynoe's gekoes. Now who's argument is whack!?


 

Last I knew we were talking about the human species. :lol:


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## Miss B (Mar 31, 2008)

What about couples who can't conceive?

If they were born that way, does that mean nature did not intend for them to have children? And therefore they should not be able to pursue other avenues (IVF, adoption etc)?

I'm failing to see the logic here.


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## Hetty (Mar 31, 2008)

Think of it as natural population control.


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## Miss B (Mar 31, 2008)

I mean heterosexual, man/woman couples - just to clarify.


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## missllama (Mar 31, 2008)

yea the thing is
were not geckos
were human
the females are the ones with the womb etc for a reason
that person didnt wana be a female
so i dont see why he should have kids...
i dont have a problem with that as much
its the fact that the poor kid is goin to be damn confused as hell growing up


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## jessb (Mar 31, 2008)

missllamathuen said:


> the females are the ones with the womb etc for a reason


 

But this is where you come up against the argument of infertile hetero couples - if someone can't conceive naturally because of a medical condition, should they be denied the chance to have kids because it "not natural"?

In general I don't have a problem with gay couples having kids, but as I said in my first post on this topic - I do have a problem with the "chopping and changing" between genders that this person is engaging in...


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## bump73 (Mar 31, 2008)

Jess the difference there is that it is un natural to be infertile in the first place, concieving with ivf is just doing whats should have been available naturally to the couple..

In my opinion gay couples having kids is rather selfish. The kids are going to get ripped on in school, i know they shouldn't but lets face it they are... And as has been said it just isn't natural, doesn't matter how long 2 women scissor each other ( South Park reference:lol they aren't gonna get pregnant same goes with 2 guys...

Ben


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## missllama (Mar 31, 2008)

I have not one prob with gays i just want this clear before anyone thinks im some homophobe or what ever u call it

i just think that the poor kids going to grow up and get alot of crap frm people and be confused... so i dont no if i think its ok or not to be honest because everyone should have a right to have a family

but i do think its unfair on the kids u no ...


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## Leigh (Mar 31, 2008)

gays don't intrinsically have psychological issues (i would assume), it's not 'part of the turf', and if it were a choice why would they choose to be so?
but wait, what about pedophilia? is that a choice?
as for this couple's kid, in a perfect world it could grow up fine, but sadly this isn't so, and he may suffer at the hands of the majority. why didn't they just adopt? maybe they wanted a media circus? $$$$

...or is it a hoax?


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## Szepp (Apr 1, 2008)

I am afraid that because i don't subscribe to the current political correct attitude to homosexuality i am frowned upon. I strongly believe no one has the right to tell anyone else how to live their life (except for serial killers, thieves, and pedophiles as Leigh stated etc etc), however i believe everyone should be free to have an opinion and be allowed to express it to anyone willing to listen. I also think we are all being manipulated by the media, schools etc into thinking a prescribed way to some extent or another. And political correctness is a powerful tool for this. ie if you rationally try criticize some aspect of homosexuality you are branded "homophobic" or if you criticize apartheid and atrocities in Israel you are branded anti-semitic, regardless. whether it is a fair or unfair criticism. I think there are some compelling arguments against homosexuals adopting and having children, also some for them doing so. 

I don't know much about most things but i do know a little about zoology and evolution. If you think about it logically :- if there was a homosexual gene in a population it would be naturally dissipate as their genes would be less likely to be inherited by the next generation, and over time it would all but disappear. Relatively speaking not many things are 100% genetic or 100% environmental as there is usually one kind of ratio between genetic/culture-environment or another ie some are 50/50 , 95/5 etc. And for the people who don't like what i am thinking and saying and casually dismiss my argument because it threatens them in some way by saying i am talking poop, then do a google or yahoo search for "homosexual gene" and you will see a huge list of newspaper and scientific reports completely dismissing this idea. Most homosexuals and everybody would like to have there lives justified by genetics or gods or something rather than accept responsibility for it themselves, hence why there was some bad "science" trying to say that there is a "gay gene". You can believe this if you want it is your choice, i prefer to listen to 99% of unbiased geneticists rather than randomly choose to believe in a myth. 

Instead of sating "i don't know what i am talking about" try do some research yourself, read some scientific papers or at very least do a google search or read this like i found that gives a very good overview and names of the ropey scientists and their flawed methods that invented this myth:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28505

I also agree that homosexuals don't necessarily have psychological problems, just through various life experiences they choose their lifestyle, whether it was consciously or subliminally , however absolutely everything when it is taken to the extreme becomes dangerous and should be questioned. Getting extremely invasive surgery that leaves scars and disfigures and leaves the person not quite male and not quite female is highly questionable. And i can guarantee that some of them can be helped with a psychiatrist rather than a surgeon. I bet if you asked a million sane people if they would prefer to have a loving mother and father or a loving mother and semi-mother/father inbetweeny, what would most or all say?

Before when i was talking about some things being irrefutably real and other thing being unreal, it is hard to make sense as we dont have words and the language to talk about it unlike Asian Indians and Chinese, Japanese and even north American indians and probably many others i don't know. ie 
Toa vs manifestations
Nagual vs Tonal
I don't know the Hindi maybe arhatship vs samsara ?
etc etc It is therefore easy for us to dismiss what i was trying to say as we don't even have the language to discuss it properly. But my argument is that homosexuality is part of the tonal or the myriad of manifestations or the samsara. If i used the word "toa" or Nagual , most people would not understand and some would think i am a religious nutter hehe. I utterly despise organized religions but have nothing but respect for spiritual people following their own spiritual path be it Buddhist, Hindi, gnostic Christians and any other gnostics. There is a BIG difference between religious and spiritual, organized religions = "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake,since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice."

The Toa that can be followed is not the eternal Toa,
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth
While naming is the origin of the myriad of things.
Therefore, always desireless, you see the mystery
Ever desiring, you see the manifestations.
These two are the same--
When they appear they are named differently.

The sameness is the mystery,
Mystery within mystery;

The door to all marvels



Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind. "It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one. "No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second.

A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."


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## DiamondAsh (Apr 1, 2008)

Miss B said:


> What about couples who can't conceive?
> 
> If they were born that way, does that mean nature did not intend for them to have children? And therefore they should not be able to pursue other avenues (IVF, adoption etc)?
> 
> I'm failing to see the logic here.


 

The simple answer is yes, nature did not intend them to have children. IVF is man's adaptation away from nature and into science.


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## grimbeny (Apr 1, 2008)

Szepp it interests me that by 'dissproving' genetic reasons for homosexuality you beleive this is evidence for some conciouse selection of ones sexuality. What date did you choose to be arroused when seeing the female form? Somthing can be environmental yet still be hard wired. I would like to point out that I know there is no way i could change my sexuality, it is a subconcious urge that no one has any control over. There is nothing fetish like about it. 

It is quite obvious that most most aspects of our body (brain included) are a combination of both genetic and environmental influences. Whether these be having a leg amputated or a hormonal imbalance during pregnancy.

I also find it interesting how by questioning your opinions we are enforcing political correctness onto you. I have an opinion about this issue and feel it my responcibility that other people are told the more logical perspective.


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## waruikazi (Apr 1, 2008)

missllamathuen said:


> yea the thing is
> were not geckos
> were human



So wait....

You're saying my tail wont grow back?


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## waruikazi (Apr 1, 2008)

For all you un-natural arguers... I hope you get cancer and treat it naturally. The way nature intended it!


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## Szepp (Apr 1, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Szepp it interests me that by 'dissproving' genetic reasons for homosexuality you beleive this is evidence for some conciouse selection of ones sexuality. What date did you choose to be arroused when seeing the female form? Somthing can be environmental yet still be hard wired. I would like to point out that I know there is no way i could change my sexuality, it is a subconcious urge that no one has any control over. There is nothing fetish like about it.
> 
> It is quite obvious that most most aspects of our body (brain included) are a combination of both genetic and environmental influences. Whether these be having a leg amputated or a hormonal imbalance during pregnancy.
> 
> I also find it interesting how by questioning your opinions we are enforcing political correctness onto you. I have an opinion about this issue and feel it my responcibility that other people are told the more logical perspective.




I know very little about genetics and friends who have a doctorates in genetics and biotechnology always eager to remind me when ever i mention anything out of my league. This is why i appreciate and value the opinion of geneticists who have spend 7 years at university learning their stuff then many years post doc research more than i value the opinion of lay persons and one or two disproven bad scientists.

Like i said most stuff isn't 100% genetic or 100% environmental, but it is all but completely agreed by geneticists that there is zero evidence for the homosexual gene. Maybe you know better than them on the subject? This therefore means that it is environmental, cultural and social so nobody is born homosexual. If you want to argue this point i suggest you do it with a geneticist.


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## HoffOff (Apr 1, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> For all you un-natural arguers... I hope you get cancer and treat it naturally. The way nature intended it!


Indeed! no chemo!


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## HoffOff (Apr 1, 2008)

grimbeny said:


> Szepp it interests me that by 'dissproving' genetic reasons for homosexuality you beleive this is evidence for some conciouse selection of ones sexuality. What date did you choose to be arroused when seeing the female form? Somthing can be environmental yet still be hard wired. I would like to point out that I know there is no way i could change my sexuality, it is a subconcious urge that no one has any control over. There is nothing fetish like about it.
> 
> It is quite obvious that most most aspects of our body (brain included) are a combination of both genetic and environmental influences. Whether these be having a leg amputated or a hormonal imbalance during pregnancy.
> 
> I also find it interesting how by questioning your opinions we are enforcing political correctness onto you. I have an opinion about this issue and feel it my responcibility that other people are told the more logical perspective.



Well said!


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## Szepp (Apr 1, 2008)

Over the past 100,000 years humans have been in our current evolutionary state unchanged. If there was a homosexual gene it would not remain in populations long as they wouldn't pass their genes onto the next generation. Example :- imagine if you will, one or two individuals of race (A) in a population of one race entirely made up of race (B). After a few generations their racial traits will visually disappear. So even the obvious logical argument for the existence of a homosexual gene is tenuous. All good scientists will tell you that they don't really know much, so even if geneticists are missing something it is still logically unlikely for the existence of this gene. If anybody chooses to become or becomes homosexual unwittingly as you say you did and if you are happy then i am happy for you, and good luck too you. But a god didn't make you homosexual nor did your genetic make up. Who knows what did, and it is probably different for different people, ie loads of social, cultural, environmental factors in loads of different combinations may put you on that path. Please don't feel threatened by this, instead accept responsibility for your own path directly and don't blame your genes. I think it is threatening because i imagine that it is often just a series of chance events that put you on your path and there is no divine reason or scientific answers to why. Accept your path for what it is if it make you happy and content else change paths. It is your choice to do this consciously or be unwittingly influenced into it. If that is your chosen way to live, then embrace it as your own.


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## Szepp (Apr 1, 2008)

grimbeny . you are saying you have the more logical perspective. I disagree i would say entire scientific community of geneticists that looked into this deeply with the skills to do so far beyond us have the more logical perspective than either of us. What you are really saying is that you choose to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence and disagree with a whole field of hard science. Much in the way that religious people choose to believe in some god or another and demand that their good is the one true one and all others are false. Like i said before you can believe in leprechauns and tooth faeries just as you can believe in a god or your imaginary gene. But equally we cant disprove that there isn't gods, leprechauns, tooth faeries and homosexual genes so this leaves a gap for some people to have faith in their existence.

/rant off
it is late here, nn


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## DiamondAsh (Apr 1, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> For all you un-natural arguers... I hope you get cancer and treat it naturally. The way nature intended it!


 

I don't have a problem with that, I'd rather live on my feet than die on my knees.


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## fishbot (Apr 1, 2008)

@ Szepp

Bad science is annoying.

What kind of a geneticist rules out the possibility of a “gay” gene? Have they mapped the function of every human gene? If so, please introduce them to me.

Your statements on homosexuality and gender identity are complete nonsense and sound as if they came directly from a religious propaganda pamphlet....tell Tom Cruise I said hi.

Stick with zoology and read that journal article about homosexual necrophilic ducks.


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## jessb (Apr 1, 2008)

bump73 said:


> In my opinion gay couples having kids is rather selfish. The kids are going to get ripped on in school, i know they shouldn't but lets face it they are


 
So fat people shouldn't have kids? Or mixed race couples? Or people with buck teeth and glasses? Because it means that their kid will get picked on at school because they are different...

Kids get picked on for so many reasons - I don't think that argument really holds up...


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## jessb (Apr 1, 2008)

DiamondAsh said:


> I don't have a problem with that, I'd rather live on my feet than die on my knees.


 
Don't you mean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"???


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## grimbeny (Apr 1, 2008)

"Over the past 100,000 years humans have been in our current evolutionary state unchanged. If there was a homosexual gene it would not remain in populations long as they wouldn't pass their genes onto the next generation. Example :- imagine if you will, one or two individuals of race (A) in a population of one race entirely made up of race (B). After a few generations their racial traits will visually disappear. So even the obvious logical argument for the existence of a homosexual gene is tenuous. All good scientists will tell you that they don't really know much, so even if geneticists are missing something it is still logically unlikely for the existence of this gene."

You seem to have forggoten for the last 100 000 years acting on your sexual urges was not as practicle as you make out. Homosexuals have always 'married into traditional' relationships by choice. If homosexuality is a choice why would people be homosexual and not act on the urges at all? How come the only people who claime to 'be cured' from being gay are all religious?

'If anybody chooses to become or becomes homosexual unwittingly as you say you did and if you are happy then i am happy for you, and good luck too you. But a god didn't make you homosexual nor did your genetic make up. '

I never said i was gay in this thread and quite frankly its non of your buisness.

'I think it is threatening because i imagine that it is often just a series of chance events that put you on your path and there is no divine reason or scientific answers to why. Accept your path for what it is if it make you happy and content else change paths. It is your choice to do this consciously or be unwittingly influenced into it.' 

Pffft, this is just absurd.

'I disagree i would say entire scientific community of geneticists that looked into this deeply with the skills to do so far beyond us have the more logical perspective than either of us. What you are really saying is that you choose to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence and disagree with a whole field of hard science.'

Can you please point out a sentence where i disagreed with the worlds scientific comunity. Of which you know them all? I never said there was a homosexual gene!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact the idea that homosexuality is purely genetic is somthing i disagreed with. 


Why are you yet to rebut any of my critisicms of your argument?


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## Hetty (Apr 1, 2008)

jessb said:


> So fat people shouldn't have kids? Or mixed race couples? Or people with buck teeth and glasses? Because it means that their kid will get picked on at school because they are different...
> 
> Kids get picked on for so many reasons - I don't think that argument really holds up...



Eugenics - the way of the future. lol


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## bump73 (Apr 1, 2008)

jessb said:


> So fat people shouldn't have kids? Or mixed race couples? Or people with buck teeth and glasses? Because it means that their kid will get picked on at school because they are different...
> 
> Kids get picked on for so many reasons - I don't think that argument really holds up...


 

Didn't say it as an argument ...It's just my opinion plain and simple

Ben


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## Leigh (Apr 1, 2008)

eugenics is more or less gonna happen, IMO. good luck stopping it. but i say that as if it isn't already happening!
also what's this crap about homosexuality being a conscious/subconscious choice? i say again, why would anybody choose to be gay? girls are more fun 
sadly i agree with bump73, the kids _may _suffer, and for somebody to put a child through this sort of thing because they want a child isn't the best, IMO. saying that, in my limited experience gay parents may be stronger and more 'together' than the traditional heterosexual ones.


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## Hetty (Apr 1, 2008)

Eugenics won't happen unless it's forced.


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## Leigh (Apr 1, 2008)

you don't think hetty? already companies will promise couples to remove certain cancers etc from their gene pool, and when they fail, the couple sues, big time :lol: 
next they'll be breeding the gay away, is this what szepp thinks?


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## Hetty (Apr 1, 2008)

Okay, good point. Talking in the distant, distant future we might have a bit of a 'Brave New World' thing going on, if it becomes mainstream to select different desirable traits, but that kind of thing is a long way off.

I think before people want to 'breed the gay away' they'll be selecting different traits, like say, healthy children (is that so radical?).

If eugenics happens it will be by scientific means.


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## bump73 (Apr 1, 2008)

Okay i've been thinking about the argument that being gay isn't genetic because it would have been bred out as gay people don't breed...

Can't believe there are scientists that actually subscribe to this theory:shock:. It is only in the last couple of generations that people have been able to live in openly gay relationships, before this the majority lived in hetro relationships and had children etc. but lived out threir gay lives in the shadows away from the scrutiny of others meaning that if it is a genetic thing then it is still feasable that it has been passed down through generations, not bred out of existence..

This all makes sense in my head but may not have come out right but i think you'll get the gist of what i'mtrying to say:lol:

Ben


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## Armand (Apr 1, 2008)

yeh it was a chick that had a sex change into a man but she kept her internal organs.. my teacher told us today lol!


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## Armand (Apr 1, 2008)

but if hes pregnant then.....yuk!


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## Szepp (Apr 1, 2008)

jessb said:


> So fat people shouldn't have kids? Or mixed race couples? Or people with buck teeth and glasses? Because it means that their kid will get picked on at school because they are different...
> 
> Kids get picked on for so many reasons - I don't think that argument really holds up...



OK this is completely irrational and becoming quite silly


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## Szepp (Apr 1, 2008)

fishbot said:


> @ Szepp
> 
> Bad science is annoying.
> 
> ...



Fishbot i take great pleasure in introducing you to the Human Genome Project :-
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml

All human genes were finally all identified in 2003. However they dont know how all of them work in situ or how they all interact yet, many but not all. So haha they have mapped it out LOL. Sorry it is hard not to ridicule you as you clearly are trying to defend your point without any logic or facts and a very limited understanding (even less than me).

So again someone is happy to casually say i am talking complete nonsense and stick by their feeble faith. 

I agree bad science is annoying thats why the entire science community ridiculed Dean Hamer who invented the idea of homosexual genes. reports were confirmed that Dean Hamer was being investigated by the Office of Research Integrity at the Department of Health and Human Services. Reports found that Hamer may have selectively reported his research and data – which has led many to question the credibility of his research.

This is your evidence that you haven't even bothered to look at . Preferring to have faith in some ridiculous unjustified concept. So don't accuse me of being religious as i am not, i have an inquiring mind and willing to change it if presented with evidence and convincing argument unlike most people like you with abstract faith.

I have had many discussions with religious believers like yourself who are not willing to listen to logic, reason, evidence and hard scientific facts, and it is a waste of every bodies time. You are a waste of a brain "He has been given a large brain by mistake,since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice". All you need to to is breath and march to the beat of a drum so a brain stem is all you really need.

If you genuinely believe i am talking nonsense as you say, please feel free to rationally argue and present facts and systematically dismantle my argument with facts, logic, reason and common sense instead of merely accusing me of being a scientologist. Or else just be honest to yourself and admit you have faith instead of facts and could just as easily believe in leprechauns then accuse others of being irrational if they call your beliefs out as crap.

The end of the day there is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence for a homosexual gene, and you are extremely arrogant and unthinking if you believe you know better than the entire worlds scientific community. And the fact that it is impossible for science to completely rule out anything does not mean everything has a possibility. ie perhaps a tiny teapot is at the center of the universe pouring out all matter than the entire universe revolves around it; science cant disprove that this isn't true, so people like you gasp and say ohhh it must be true then.


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## Adzo (Apr 1, 2008)

Szepp said:


> The end of the day there is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence for a homosexual gene, and you are extremely arrogant and unthinking if you believe you know better than the entire worlds scientific community


Not calling it evidence but the i know of a few gay guys who have children. One was a devout Christian and married for 20 odd years with 3 kids before coming out. 
I don't doubt many homosexuals denied their urges to avoid public scrutiny or worse. Why not have kids and not be a suspect in a gay witch hunt?


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## falconboy (Apr 2, 2008)

bump73 said:


> Okay i've been thinking about the argument that being gay isn't genetic because it would have been bred out as gay people don't breed...



Not really when you think about it a bit more - consider how many other diseases etc that require both parents to carry the (not active) gene for the offspring to be effected. Cystic fibrosis is a perfect example. To develop CF, a child must inherit a defective gene from *both* parents. If both parents are carriers, there is a 25 percent chance that each child they conceive will actually have CF, and a 50 percent chance that the child will be a carrier (ie non-active). Statistics (USA) say 1 in 31 people are carriers.


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## waruikazi (Apr 2, 2008)

Szepp said:


> The end of the day there is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence for a homosexual gene, and you are extremely arrogant and unthinking if you believe you know better than the entire worlds scientific community. And the fact that it is impossible for science to completely rule out anything does not mean everything has a possibility. ie perhaps a tiny teapot is at the center of the universe pouring out all matter than the entire universe revolves around it; science cant disprove that this isn't true, so people like you gasp and say ohhh it must be true then.



So i guess the crux of your argument is that homosexuality is a choice, due to it not being genetic, therefore unatural and for this reason homosexuals should not be allowed to have children.

Have i summed that up pretty well?


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## Miss B (Apr 2, 2008)

Szepp said:


> OK this is completely irrational and becoming quite silly


 
Lol and your arguments aren't? People somehow _choose_ to be homosexual?

I'm neither religious nor gay, but I do know for a fact that there is no way I could consciously choose my sexuality. Just because there is no 'gay gene' doesn't mean homosexuality is a choice that people make for themselves.


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## DiamondAsh (Apr 2, 2008)

jessb said:


> Don't you mean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"???


 

That too.


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## jessb (Apr 2, 2008)

Szepp said:


> Fishbot i take great pleasure in introducing you to the Human Genome Project :-
> http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml
> 
> All human genes were finally all identified in 2003. However they dont know how all of them work in situ or how they all interact yet, many but not all. So haha they have mapped it out LOL. Sorry it is hard not to ridicule you as you clearly are trying to defend your point without any logic or facts and a very limited understanding (even less than me).
> ...


 
But Fishbot's argument wasn't whether they had mapped out the human genome, it was that we still didn't know what each gene was responsible for. That's why there are thousands of diseases that can't be screened out through IVF etc. So to claim that "because they haven't identified a gay gene, sexuality must be a choice" is ludicrous.

Genetics don't always mean you are 100% guaranteed to end up with a certain condition anyway - you may be genetically predisposed to breast cancer, however it just means that, combined with your lifestyle and environmental conditions, you are at higher risk than the general population. Even someone with "a gay gene" (should one ever be found) may be brought up in a repressive, fundamentalist environment and see heterosexual marriage and children as their only option. Or they may have the "gay gene" and meet and fall in love with an opposite-sex soulmate and end up in a heterosexual relationship that way. 

Besides, the nature vs nurture debate isn't as simple as you make out. Environment and upbringing have major influences on a person's behaviour and character, regardless of genetic predisposition. Simplifying those outcomes to "a choice" is ignorant and facile. If someone is sexually abused through their childhood and is unable to develop relationships as an adult, that doesn't mean they "choose" to remain single. If a girl grows up on a farm with five brothers, she doesn't necessarily "choose" to be a tomboy. These influences make someone what they are; it falls outside of the realm of "conscious choice" and becomes and integral part of one's experiences forming one's character.


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## Fiona74 (Apr 2, 2008)

Just saw on Yahoo news this person is going to appear on the Oprah show. Appearing with 'his' wife and obstetrician. Don't know when it will air here though. Seeing as this subject has been quite a hot topic it might be a good idea for us to watch it and see what they have to say.
Then we can come back here and discuss it all again!


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## Armand (Apr 2, 2008)

lol.. gota be a shemale!


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## Sidonia (Apr 2, 2008)

If being gay were a choice wouldn't they simply choose not to be gay to avoid all the crap they get flung at them?

Imagine finally getting the courage and telling your parents to have it thrown back in your face and have the door slammed on you, being bullied constantly by close minded people etc.

You'd think if it were a choice they'd chose not to go through all that and find a nice girl/boy and live happily ever after.


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## Hetty (Apr 2, 2008)

I don't know...

I think some women choose to be bisexual :lol:


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## Isis (Apr 3, 2008)

Spend some time talking with transgender people and you will see it is not a chioce and it is definatelky not mutilation......The closed minds on here really get me sometimes.


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## Earthling (Apr 3, 2008)

Szepp said:


> Fishbot i take great pleasure in introducing you to the Human Genome Project :-
> http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml
> 
> All human genes were finally all identified in 2003. However they dont know how all of them work in situ or how they all interact yet, many but not all. So haha they have mapped it out LOL. Sorry it is hard not to ridicule you as you clearly are trying to defend your point without any logic or facts and a very limited understanding (even less than me).
> ...


 
I fail to understand your logic at times Szepp. You say you use knowledge and look, however it seems your looking not with an open mind but instead clouded with your personal bias.

Please for an unbias view, read the link below. 

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/faq/genenumber.shtml

You infer/say in your 'arguments' that as the genes are mapped and no gay gene has been found that their is no gay gene. 

You are wrong on a number of counts. The Human Genome Project does not even acurately know how many genes there are, let alone how they all interact or what each one does! So how could science say wether their is a gay gene or not?
Science can not prove what it does not know.
Thus...NO person can truthfuly say that there is a gay gene or alternatively that their is not a gay gene. 

If your going to rely on science to understand this world your going to be lost from the start...science can only 'answer' a tiny infinitely small fraction of 'this' or 'that'.

Remember, the whole is consistently greater then the sum of its parts.

Think big.


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## jessb (Apr 3, 2008)

Hetty said:


> I don't know...
> 
> I think some women choose to be bisexual :lol:


 
Hmm, not sure some drunk chick trying to impress her boyfriend by pashing her best friend actually counts as "bisexual"...:lol:


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## Szepp (Apr 3, 2008)

Earthling said:


> I fail to understand your logic at times Szepp. You say you use knowledge and look, however it seems your looking not with an open mind but instead clouded with your personal bias.
> 
> Please for an unbias view, read the link below.
> 
> ...



I am being miss quoted to buggery " You infer/say in your 'arguments' that as the genes are mapped and no gay gene has been found that their is no gay gene. " 
and my whole argument is being lost on most of you. I stated TWICE already that that is NOT what i am saying. Read my previous rants b4 miss quoting and others. 

You also say i am bias and should try be unbiased. But i have an opinion so cant.

I also said 2 times b4 that because there there has been no homosexual gene found doesn't mean there isn't but i think highly unlikely. As for those who think there are these genes or they will be discovered, then that is just wishful thinking.

I even stated that the whole genome has been mapped but they dont know what all the genes do and how they interact. so please dont use my own quotes to disprove me. Obviously my argument is subliminally going well or something as people keep using my statements and giving them back to me as if they are there own.

I think i will go and hammer a big nail into my head and i can join in the argument properly. I am off to Camelot as it is a less silly place than this thread (monty python /nod btw)


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## Szepp (Apr 3, 2008)

Ahh dats bettr az eye can sea fings nowe wit nale in d heeed eye woz wong al alongz


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## Miss B (Apr 3, 2008)

jessb said:


> Hmm, not sure some drunk chick trying to impress her boyfriend by pashing her best friend actually counts as "bisexual"...:lol:


 
That's pretty much what I was thinking :lol:


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## Veredus (Apr 3, 2008)

Consider that if homosexuality is in fact a choice this must mean every member of the population must be attracted to both sexes and that homosexuals choose only to act on their attraction to the same sex and vice versa for heterosexuals. Just to refute any claim that you can change what you are attracted to with a conscious effort, how many of you could choose to be attracted to a tree? Or a large rock? If it is a choice then surely everyone can make the choice. Szepp you can prove to us that you are right...sleep with a man based solely on your sexual attraction to him and we can all realise that homosexuality is a choice. What do you say....in the name of science could you CHOOSE to sleep with a man Szepp?


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## Leigh (Apr 3, 2008)

heres the oprah thing.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=441662
there are some equally ignorant comments at the bottom too. a good read.


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## Hetty (Apr 3, 2008)

Veredus said:


> Consider that if homosexuality is in fact a choice this must mean every member of the population must be attracted to both sexes and that homosexuals choose only to act on their attraction to the same sex and vice versa for heterosexuals. Just to refute any claim that you can change what you are attracted to with a conscious effort, how many of you could choose to be attracted to a tree? Or a large rock? If it is a choice then surely everyone can make the choice. Szepp you can prove to us that you are right...sleep with a man based solely on your sexual attraction to him and we can all realise that homosexuality is a choice. What do you say....in the name of science could you CHOOSE to sleep with a man Szepp?



How about a small rock? :lol:

Some people like 'cute' things :lol:


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## Princey85 (Apr 3, 2008)

SOOOOO WRONG!! some people are messed up in society these days and will do anything for a kick or to be in the spot light!


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## waruikazi (Apr 3, 2008)

Princey85 said:


> SOOOOO WRONG!! some people are messed up in society these days and will do anything for a kick or to be in the spot light!



OR...

Do anything they can to have the child that they need.


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## grimbeny (Apr 4, 2008)

I just saw this article on the news, apparently it has been confirmed.


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## Tsidasa (Apr 4, 2008)

I think the media's just hyping up something that really I personally think is fine.... As stated in one of the articles, it's a natural progression in life to want a biological child, and most of us that want a child badly with our partner will try anything we can. IVF, Artificial Insemination, Fertility drugs, Adoption. Etc.
They were lucky they had a biological option within their partnership.
Good luck to them


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## GraftonChic (Apr 4, 2008)

Who has the popcorn, Pass some would you plz


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## DiamondAsh (Apr 4, 2008)

GraftonChic said:


> Who has the popcorn, Pass some would you plz


 
Would you like female popcorn, male popcorn, popcorn that doesn't know which it is or an icecream?


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## Fiona74 (Apr 4, 2008)

DiamondAsh said:


> Would you like female popcorn, male popcorn, popcorn that doesn't know which it is or an icecream?


I'll have a bit of both thanks so I can have whatever suits me, when it suits me


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## GraftonChic (Apr 4, 2008)

*Decisions Decisions*



DiamondAsh said:


> Would you like female popcorn, male popcorn, popcorn that doesn't know which it is or an icecream?


 

I think I will have ice cream plz


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## Szepp (Apr 6, 2008)

Pass the ostrich biltong

The world is so (m)ucked. Billions of years of evolution so that the lady in this story can piss on Darwin. How far away can we get from the real reality?

Bye the way Veredus it is a choice whether it is yours or not and wherether you are conscious or unconscious of your decisions and indulging in certain thoughts. It was choices made early in life. Apparently absolutely nothing to do with god or DNA. Accept that it is just down to various social and cultural factors and indulging in certain thoughts, as hard as it is to accept that you have responsibility for your own awareness and existence and not fully god or dna. Funny thing is somebody somewhere will have a fetish for trees, armpits, rocks in their pants, toes etc, it isnt their dna that makes them like feet or something , just prolonged indulging in bizarre thoughts, much like homosexuality in fact. My mother would ask me which Charlie's angel i liked best and so forth (Farra Fawset btw Phwoawr), so would guide me to a natural life. (lol i know that the political correct brigade will jump on the implication that homosexuality isn't natural in my statement. And as a matter of fact by definition it isn't natural as all of nature that reproduces sexually could not exist if everyhting was homosexual. Don't mention "gay dogs" and things as they will hump legs, dogs, bitches, cats, furniture etc so not exclusively homosexual ).

How far away can we get from reality?


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## Szepp (Apr 6, 2008)

Tsidasa said:


> I think the media's just hyping up something that really I personally think is fine.... As stated in one of the articles, it's a natural progression in life to want a biological child, and most of us that want a child badly with our partner will try anything we can. IVF, Artificial Insemination, Fertility drugs, Adoption. Etc.
> They were lucky they had a biological option within their partnership.
> Good luck to them



It isn't very homosexual to have children. Sort of like a vegetarian eating fish and chicken. If someone is homosexual they have forsaken their right to have children naturally and need Frankenstein's medicine, or as this lady used a plastic card to buy a plastic tub full of plastic sperm and used a plastic applicator to fertilize her plastic self, how romantic it must be to be homosexual? 

Reality is loosing ground in the world


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## Hetty (Apr 6, 2008)

Okay, Szepp, you're an idiot.


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## Dodie (Apr 6, 2008)

Hmm calling something produced by nature 'unnatural' is abhorrent

Oh my mum used to ask me when I was a little tyke which Charlie's Angel was the best so it would guarantee that I wouldn't turn into a homosexual later on in life 

Clearly (m)ucked in the head


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## Miss B (Apr 6, 2008)

I'm not even going to bother wasting my time replying to any more of Szepp's posts.

Clearly a lost cause...


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## fine_jungles (Apr 6, 2008)

Szepp said:


> Pass the ostrich biltong
> 
> The world is so (m)ucked. Billions of years of evolution so that the lady in this story can piss on Darwin. How far away can we get from the real reality?
> 
> ...


 
:shock:


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## fine_jungles (Apr 6, 2008)

Szepp said:


> It isn't very homosexual to have children. Sort of like a vegetarian eating fish and chicken. If someone is homosexual they have forsaken their right to have children naturally and need Frankenstein's medicine, or as this lady used a plastic card to buy a plastic tub full of plastic sperm and used a plastic applicator to fertilize her plastic self, how romantic it must be to be homosexual?
> 
> Reality is loosing ground in the world


:shock:


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## grimbeny (Apr 6, 2008)

Sorry but this thread just got funny


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## fine_jungles (Apr 6, 2008)

Homosexuals causing earthquakes now thats funny


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## fine_jungles (Apr 6, 2008)

Homosexuals causing earthquakes now thats funny


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## Sidonia (Apr 6, 2008)

Miss B said:


> I'm not even going to bother wasting my time replying to any more of Szepp's posts.
> 
> Clearly a lost cause...



I think that was apparent from the start


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## Tsidasa (Apr 6, 2008)

Szepp said:


> It isn't very homosexual to have children. Sort of like a vegetarian eating fish and chicken. If someone is homosexual they have forsaken their right to have children naturally and need Frankenstein's medicine, or as this lady used a plastic card to buy a plastic tub full of plastic sperm and used a plastic applicator to fertilize her plastic self, how romantic it must be to be homosexual?
> 
> Reality is loosing ground in the world



It is actually natural in my view.
If they had sex with a man while not taking the hormones, the outcome would have been the same. The person did not forfeit their reproductive organs that were specifically designed to nourish a baby to development. Funnily enough people still have these organs and the ability to create a life regardless of their sexual preference. If the baby is going to be brought up in a loving environment by two people that want that child very much, then that will be so much better than the thousands of people who bring unwanted, neglected and abused children into the world through your view of "natural" procreation.

Also in response to the person being plastic? She has nothing plastic...she had her breasts removed...not replaced with something....hell this person is less plastic than a lot of teenage girls these days.

I suppose mastectomy patients who have had their breasts removed through lifethreatening illness are plastic to you as well?



The world is changing, jump on board, or get left behind.


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## Jen (Apr 6, 2008)

Szepp: Choice consists of the mental process of thinking involved with the process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them for action. there fore choice is a CONSCIOUS decision, why go on about subliminal and unconscious choices when they do not exist. it is not a choice to be gay, straight, white, black, male, female etc, it just is. people can choose to change their physical sex, but genetically they are the sex they were born. this is a woman giving birth from donor sperm, a woman who identifies as male. it is not her choice to be ridiculed and judged by people. if you have a problem with any of it, don't read the stories or watch the news casts, it has nothing to do with you and in no way affects you. sorry for the rant, just a little upset. ps, this is not just aimed at szepp, but to anyone who is intolerant of other peoples lifestyles.


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## Shannidah (Apr 6, 2008)

Are they gonna breastfeed? And who?


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