# Snake-seller lying?



## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

Hmmm.... we stumbled across something a little disturbing thismorning.

Has anyone seen those absolutely fantastic diamonds for sale on the herptrader??

They are reference number 676-600 (see pic)







Now, three days ago, there were 20 for sale.... so 8 have been purchased.

Have a look at the snakes...

As hatchies...






As yearlings...






I enquired about these snakes... they're gorgeous... I wanted one or two...
I asked if the parents are related... Nope...
I asked if i could see more pics... Nope (apparently the computer was not working???)...
I asked for a contact number... No reply...

We've been looking into diamonds quite a bit lately, in the process of planning our breeding (i.e. different things we like, different localities, etc)...

Guess what Morgan (username: Misky) stumbled across thismorning???

This website... http://www.jaguarpython.com/docs/diamond.htm

Check it out!!! It's a Norweigan site...

Here's one of their breeders... (notice no watermark??)






Here's a hatchy (From 2001)...






Here's another...






By the looks of it... these snakes were bred by Jan Eric Engell... In NORWAY...

I could be missing something here... what conclusions do others come to?

Anyone here bought one??

Aaron.

PS - Please note that this is in no way the fault of the herptrader (or anyone involved in the running of the herptrader), it's simply impossible for them to have known that the photos look to have been lifted. This is merely a warning for others.


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## Spike14 (Jun 18, 2006)

maybe they stole the photo's from jaguar breeding centre? or theve found a new way to smuggle stuff ino aus? means i can fuinally get that burmese ive been waiting on :roll:


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## Kersten (Jun 18, 2006)

Well oh my goodness me......


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## elapid68 (Jun 18, 2006)

It could be that they didn't have any photos of their own animals so they borrowed some from the U.S site or on the other hand, yeah, they could be on the suspect side. If in doubt, don't. I wouldn't be sending any cash until I was positive I was getting the animals in return.


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## Australis (Jun 18, 2006)

Yep scam, ask for bank details, would be intresting to see if its a Australian or overseas account.

Matt


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

*Re: RE: Snake-seller lying?*



elapid68 said:


> It could be that they didn't have any photos of their own animals so they borrowed some from the U.S site



To quote the ad... 



ad said:


> Bottom photo shows them as hatchlings and top photo is what they look like now


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

Yeah it sounds like some kind of scam, there is absolutely no way that Jan Eric Engell would have anything to do with it . This bloke has just taken photo's from the Norwegian site.


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## misky (Jun 18, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Snake-seller lying?*

I must say, i check the herp trader most days and there are plenty of times that i have seen ads without images so even if this person had no photos it does not give them an excuse to steal other peoples.... if they wanted to use a photo to give an example of what a diamond python looked like they should have put a disclaimer stating that it was not the python that was for sale. To me the way the ad has been worded it certainly sounds to me like they are trying to make out that these are the EXACT animals for sale.

Cheers,
Misky


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## GreatSage (Jun 18, 2006)

Damn you! I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids
and your dog Scooby doo!!!!!

But seriously that is a clear cut case of False advertising...
Unless Jan Engell From Norway is infact you Aaron! Sent to Australia in a witness reclocation program, you brough smuggled
those diaomnds here with you and made up this whole dodgey thread to help sell your snakes!!!!!

Well?


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

boa said:


> Yeah it sounds like some kind of scam, there is absolutely no way that Jan Eric Engell would have anything to do with it . This bloke has just taken photo's from the Norwegian site.



I've never spoken to Jan before... but i remember some instances on kingsnake where he had someone claiming their stock was from his lineage, when it wasnt... and he wasn't very happy at all!


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## alby (Jun 18, 2006)

o my i seen that ad also and thought what gorgreus looking snakes maybe u should try get his details and organise for yourself to have a look at them its sad that your cant even trust anyone around here...not in here here but yous know what i mean


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

I think that probably happens to a lot of the bigger breeders, the thing is that someone in Australia probbaly thought 
they were safe using photo's from a Norwegian website


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## alby (Jun 18, 2006)

cant u do something to your pics which allow them so u cant copy the pics


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## Kersten (Jun 18, 2006)

You can watermark the pics Alby, but I guess in this case the site had a reason for not doing so.


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## Nome (Jun 18, 2006)

Well, they are obviously lying and using some photos they found on the net to advertise their snakes. A big no no. They either don't have the snakes, or their snakes don't look very nice, or they don't have a camera. It's happened before, some people take advantage that the purchasing of reptiles is often done by viewing pictures only, so really it's just about trusting that the picture you are seeing before you pay is actually one of the snake.

I'd be reporting it to the herptrader and naming this person online. They must have something to hide if they are using someone else's photos and claiming that the photos are of their snakes for sale.


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

Yeah I don't think it would be out of line to name the person, it's not like they did it by accident, it was a calculated move by them 
to sell their animals using someone elses hard work.


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## GreatSage (Jun 18, 2006)

If if they where watermarked it can but edited out easliy, there is really nothing you can do without destroying the image
that will stop it exept informt the rightful owner or website of the infringment.


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

I have been onto sites where it is impossible to copy the photo's, if you right click it says
' We have disabled this function due to rampant image theft from this site "


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## trader (Jun 18, 2006)

Thanks for the 'heads up' austherps!. The photos have been removed and we have sent the seller a "please explain".

Now if the Herp Trader was one of those automated sites we would not have been able to take such prompt action. :wink: 

Judy (aka herpTrader)


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

trader said:


> Thanks for the 'heads up' austherps!. The photos have been removed and we have sent the seller a "please explain".
> 
> Now if the Herp Trader was one of those automated sites we would not have been able to take such prompt action. :wink:
> 
> Judy (aka herpTrader)



Judy,

I emailed and tried to call Brian several times this morning to let him know that it was there but he wasn't about. Don't have Daavid's number.

Have you guys considered only allowing images of animals for sale on your site if the image contains a current newspaper? Or something to identify the animal as owned by the person? It's hard, I know - the odd few will slip by. I remember discovering Hank Molt using the trader's images on his site (for those who don't know who Hank is... he runs the biggest venomous reptile expo in the US, called Daytona - even the biggest well known guys stoop as low as to pass someone else's hard work off as their own).

Finally, do you have any plans to contact people who have enquired about those diamonds through the trader?

Cheers, and glad to help,
Austy (and Misky)


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

That is actually a very good point, some of these other sites just seem to rely on the seller being legit and doing the right thing which as we know they often don't.


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

boa said:


> That is actually a very good point, some of these other sites just seem to rely on the seller being legit and doing the right thing which as we know they often don't.



Perhaps it's safe to take the pictures on the trader as being legitimate... but when dealing with the breeder/seller, ask for current photos showing the animal in some way identifying it. Of course, the sly few will be able to pass it off, but liars soon come undone. 

All I can say is the guy is lucky I didn't buy one off him...


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## Sdaji (Jun 18, 2006)

This sort of thing is absolutely terrible, you'd think the seller would realise that the buyer would notice that the snake they've bought isn't the same as the picture in the ad, but I suppose they're the sort of person who figures it doesn't matter once they have their money  It's sad to see people like this sharing our world and even worse, our hobby.

Interestingly, despite this sort of thing happening reasonably frequently (photos of mine have been stolen several times), watermarks are still frowned upon by many people. I often see people complaining about watermarks and have personally received a lot of abuse over them and was even banned from one reptile forum, for doing nothing more than posting three watermarked pictures of geckoes! The banning was then backed up with several highly abusive emails from the site's owner! :shock: :lol: Apparently posting watermarked pictures constitutes an attack on a site :shock: :lol:

Out of interest, how easy would it be to remove these watermarks? Is the solid one more difficult than the 'semi transparent' one?












Usually I don't bother watermarking as despite being upsetting, it is flattering to see someone else steal your pictures and as the photographer, the watermarks bother me much more than anyone else.

Oh, and no, I'm not posting watermarked pictures as an attack on this site! :lol:  :shock:


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## trader (Jun 18, 2006)

AustHerps said:


> Finally, do you have any plans to contact people who have enquired about those diamonds through the trader?
> Cheers, and glad to help,
> Austy (and Misky)



:wink: yes I have done that....you will be receiving a copy of the email I sent out to the inquirers.

Thanx again, Judy (aka herpTrader)


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## Rennie (Jun 18, 2006)

Sdaji, I'm sure if you were very good with photoshop and very keen you could somehow go over the watermarked spot.
But it will put most people off.


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## Spike14 (Jun 18, 2006)

sdaji, look how easy it is to get rid of water mark :lol: :lol:


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

How did you do that Spike, I can't even see where the old watermark was.


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## Spike14 (Jun 18, 2006)

not rreally that hard :lol: .... im seriously kacking myself laughing right now


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

I like that font you used as well, what is that called ?


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## Spike14 (Jun 18, 2006)

called spike14 lol


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## aussiesnakelover (Jun 18, 2006)

my bro could seriously get rid of that water mark, ill get him to do it when he get back from mines


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 18, 2006)

Sdaji, the large transparent type are the best, you could even blend it a little further to reduce the effects on the image, but with alot of work you could still remove it. Here is a 20 minute job on the easy one.


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## Magpie (Jun 18, 2006)

I'm sorry, but i refuse to believe that any aussie snake seller could possibly lie.


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## Sdaji (Jun 18, 2006)

Heh, I should have used an example I was less fond of!

Pretty impressive for a twenty minute job, I'm sure if someone was really keen they could come up with something extremely convincing in an hour or so.

So the faded watermarks are more difficult to get rid of? I assume you mean it's just the larger size, and that you can 'get away with' a larger size with a semi opaque watermark than a fully opaque one.

It seems that a watermark is only a mild deterrent. Are there any better ways to protect your pictures? I assume I'm not the only one who is sitting on a few of their favourite pictures which have not been shown to anyone. The download prevention idea doesn't seem to be any good at all as it's easy enough to grab a screen shot, then crop the picture out (although being a computer novice, I don't even know how to grab a screen shot, or even know the proper terminology! :lol: ).

Interesting discussion, thanks everyone. Good work spotting the liar, Aaron!


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## dpeica (Jun 18, 2006)

> Are there any better ways to protect your pictures?



Try taking crappy pictures that no one would want to steal..


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## GreatSage (Jun 18, 2006)

"Out of interest, how easy would it be to remove these watermarks? Is the solid one more difficult than the 'semi transparent' one?"

Sdaji,

3 min maximum....the more complex the pattern the longer but still able to be done.

As for not being able to right click download, you can just screen shot it..


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 18, 2006)

Yeah, with a transparent watermark you can make it large enough that most people wouldn't even bother trying to remove it.

Unfortunately there is no fool proof way to protect your images, the best bet is to keep them to yourself or zip them up in a password protected archive and only share the password with those online that you feel you can trust. Be sure to use a stupidly long password if you decide to do this because a simple password = simple to crack...

Cheers.


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## GreatSage (Jun 18, 2006)

Dont have a mouse just laptop pad and in a hurry but here you go...


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## waruikazi (Jun 18, 2006)

I'm sorry but i find it all a bit perplexing that people steal pictures. If i was gonna steal something it would be worthwhile.... like a car.


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## Nagraj (Jun 18, 2006)

This thread looks like a pretty good argument for a stud book, with pics, IMO.


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## bigguy (Jun 18, 2006)

Hi, I had been away for the week working, but when I checked the Herp Traders recent adds this morning I immediately recognised those pics were from the Jaguar site. I rang Brian straight away and he double checked my findings. Brian has now informed me Judy has removed the stolen pics and the the enquiring herpers have all been advised of the deception.

I don't know about you's guys, but this sort of thing needs to be stamped out. Its hard enough buying sight unseen, and I am sure most of us have bought animals this way over the years and have been greatly dissappointed. But when someone deliberately misleads buyers by placing stolen pics and asking above average prices based on those pics, then this is outright fraud.

Judy, at the very least this person(who I believe has done this previously) should be barred from ever using the trader again and be named in the bad traders list on this site. Also, if you are not happy with his reply, or he fails to reply it should be handed over to the police for charges to be laid.

It looks like 8 have been sold. I bet the buyers will not be happy when they find out about the stolen pics being used to mislead them.


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## MrBredli (Jun 18, 2006)

The 8 sold thing is probably a ploy too, to make it seem as though they are selling quick.. i bet he only had a small number to begin with..


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## CodeRed (Jun 18, 2006)

the seller needs to be named so we can have a good ol' fashioned lynching


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## cwarren72 (Jun 18, 2006)

I just went onto Herp Trader and looked up the add and the pics have been removed. Sounds all to suss for me. Suss Suss Suuuuusssssssss !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

Just got off the phone to the seller...
He reckons those pictures were examples of what diamond pythons look like...
Yer... what a load of crap...
Why would he have placed pics of hatchies AND yearlings...??
Why would he have picked a photo of a hatchy which Jan suggested to be somewhat like a 'ghost' form?
Why would he have suggested 'this is what they look like now'???
He certainly didn't sound too confident when I let him know I had seen the pics were Jans...
He said he'd spoken to Jan about it, but wouldn't elaborate.

He tried to convince me that his diamonds look exactly like the ones in the pictures
Well, he certainly won't be getting my $500!


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

> I just went onto Herp Trader and looked up the add and the pics have been removed. Sounds all to suss for me. Suss Suss Suuuuusssssssss !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> > If you read all the thread you would see that Judy removed the photo's.


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

Also... I'd still like to know if anyone has actually paid him any money????


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## Jungleland (Jun 18, 2006)

Well what I like to know is WHO is the seller????


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## Retic (Jun 18, 2006)

I have to agree, he KNOWINGLY misled people regardless of what he said, he tried to pass off those animals as his own.


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## timmy (Jun 18, 2006)

BUSTED


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## trader (Jun 18, 2006)

I have just spoken with the advertiser and was told that permission was given from jaguarpython to use the pix, "because they were very similar to the animals I had available". 

He mentioned that a couple of the inquirers (that had bought) rang him as soon as they picked the Diamonds and that they were very happy with their purchases.

He will not be using photos from another website in the future.


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

I think it really stinks that this person basically get away with what he did. How many other ads do they have out there???. 

I agree that they should be named so that people can be wary if any other ads turn up from them.


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## timmy (Jun 18, 2006)

That's why anyone buying herps off someone they don't know should inspect there purchase before buying them.


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

sometimes that cold a bit hard with diff states and all. But I suppose you should just wat until something comes up close to you.

If you want something bad enough you will wait !!!


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

but im glad this convo came up ... I was looking into buying more snakes (nothing against anyone I spoken to) but I hadnt even thought along these lines..... how naive am I ..lol


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## bigguy (Jun 18, 2006)

Even with permission given to use the pics, it is still fraud. He failed to advise anyone they were not pics of his snakes at all.


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

bigguy said:


> Even with permission given to use the pics, it is still fraud. He failed to advise anyone they were not pics of his snakes at all.



I agree wholeheartedly


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## Australis (Jun 18, 2006)

Im sure Jan would recall if permission was given to use the images :roll: 

Matt


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

worse than that I reckon ... he actually made out IMO that they were pics of his snakes


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## misky (Jun 18, 2006)

Herptrader,
I think that using other other animals that are not owned by the seller (or even related for that matter) is a little dodgy, with or with out the owners permission... it's simply false advertising unless it is clearly stated that these are not actually the animals for sale but in fact "examples of the species" that is being offered for sale.

Maybe if people want to use photo of animals other than those being offered for sale then a disclaimer should be put on the ad so as not to give the potential buyers the wrong idea??

Cheers,
Misky


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## AustHerps (Jun 18, 2006)

trader said:


> I have just spoken with the advertiser and was told that permission was given from jaguarpython to use the pix, "because they were very similar to the animals I had available".



I have emailed Jan to see what he says, awaiting verification atm


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## Nome (Jun 18, 2006)

That's just dodge...I want to know who it is. It's illegal and misleading.

He definately suggests they are the snakes he is selling in the photos. 
Taking advantage that most people can't come and see the snakes before purchasing as is with most purchases...


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## timmy (Jun 18, 2006)

We want blood :twisted:


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

here here !!!!!

of subjuct ,,, how do put smiley faces in your message??


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## GreatSage (Jun 18, 2006)

Its not illegal if they have permission, but it is completely misleading,
he clearly omits any mention thet they are not his/hers snakes.

People on ebay do it all the time, but your are obliged to state that the images
are examples and not the actual/subject to change or very least a quick mention
that the photos are used with permition of the source(if they have permission 
then the source shorley would require this?)

Still sounds Dodgey...


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## peterescue (Jun 18, 2006)

If you use photos of animals that are not those for sale then it should be clearly stated. To do otherwise is misleading and dishonest, but Im starting to realise that there are a lot of dishonest people in this hobby, from outright theivery and the whole gammet down to using white lies about other people to try and get leverage in an arguement. IMO, dont deal with these people.


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

its hard not to use these people if you dont know who they are. Is there somewhere you can go to find out details of people who have made bodgy dealings?


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## junglemad (Jun 18, 2006)

yes it is not nice to use others' pics and mislead people with stories


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

Junglemad ... that would have been my husband talking 

You have the Mrs at the moment


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## junglemad (Jun 18, 2006)

no worries


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## junglemad (Jun 18, 2006)

no worries


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## steve6610 (Jun 18, 2006)

that was a quick edit junglemad, pmsl...........

hi afro fishy thing, 

how can you use those 3 words in one sentence, ( smiley inserted here )

cheers,
steve..........


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## junglemad (Jun 18, 2006)

you know how it gets at times Steve. Sometimes i wish i was shy


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## Gunnie101 (Jun 18, 2006)

stuff like this ruins it for everyone else trying to do the right thing by breeding - I don't know what the solution is to this one - can I suggest the culprit be named !

Jason


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## Reptile City (Jun 18, 2006)

Has anyone apart from the seller even confirmed there are reptiles avalible.
He could be just takeing money &amp; not have anything to send.(mayby wild caught).
I would love to know how this so called seller is?

Cheers,
Jason Lapins


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## AntaresiaLady (Jun 18, 2006)

One thing I thought of. 

You'd think that people who were smart enough to think up using someone elses pics, remove any photographer marks would be smart enough to realise they're gonna be busted. Makes you wonder sometimes!!


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## shellshock (Jun 18, 2006)

who knows how may times he has gotten away with it. And as there doesnt seem to be any repercussions they prob have the attitude, may as well do it until I get caught .... JMO


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## Gunnie101 (Jun 18, 2006)

As we all know the best thing about keeping reptiles is that everyone you meet will bend over backwards to give advise &amp; help (best hobby in the world !) Stuff like this ruins it all for the rest of us trying to do the right thing. Again I would love the email address of this bozo to get the message thru that is is totally unacceptable.

Jason


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## Linus (Jun 19, 2006)

I inquired about these diamonds and never heard back from the seller. Prior to this, the same person was selling some really nice high yellows about 4 weeks ago on herptrader which I also inquired about. He called me and said he'd meet me somehwere because he didn't want me coming to his house and then never called me again. The next day the herptrader ad said all 8 snakes were sold. I was a little annoyed at this having set aside a whole afternoon to meet him.

When this more recent ad was for the same guy I became very suspicious of his legitimacy and when he didn't reply to my emails I wrote him off...obviously dodgy. :? 

pm me if you want to know his name.

And if anyone has high yellow yearlings please pm me too.


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## AustHerps (Jun 30, 2006)

To quote Jan Eric Engell in an email I just received, regarding the ripoff...

"

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. NO, I have NOT given someone
called Bryce or anyone else permission to use my website photos in such a
way. 
This is a total scam. This isn`t the first time something like this happens.
It has happened 3 times in the UK as far as my ball python morphs are
concerned. Perhaps there could be more in other countries that I am unaware
of. 
A few people have even attached old pics of my own animals trying to pass
them off as their own !

"

Interesting huh?


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## Bonustokin (Jul 1, 2006)

OMG! This is unbelievable...
Linus... just name the person mate.... they have done the wrong thing, not you... you are just protecting the inocent


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## chilli (Jul 1, 2006)

who is it that herptrader advises is the advertiser ( this wouldn't be breaching privacy as they will tell any one who puts through a request ). name the bloke, everyone should know he's a scammer. has anybody visited this person, sydney metro, it would certainly be hard to avoid meeting with potential purchasers. nonetheless, if snakes exist, you could guarantee they weren't captive bred. be wary if there are actual animals because they definitely are tainted.


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## alienpunk (Aug 3, 2006)

I must say as a Vintage Skateboard Collector I have seen this scam before on many a collector site.......find a niche in which collectors/hobbyists are prepared to pay prices that are incomprehensible to regular Joes, ie anything over 500 bucks, then throw up some pics to get the naiive ones salivating....pay via an off shore paypal account and say goodbye to your money


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