# Snakes & Reptiles in NSW pet shops.



## diamond 007 (Apr 20, 2008)

I have hear that soon you will be able to buy snakes & reptiles in NSW pet shops,is this true. A friend of mind said that there 's been meetings with national parks and wildlife and pet shop assocation about the selling of Reptiles.If any body hear this like to know more.


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## hozy6 (Apr 20, 2008)

one day one day i dont think it will happen in a hurry


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## Peterwookie (Apr 20, 2008)

I have been told that it will only be pet shops that meet a special criteira that have to get a licence and get 
inspected by NPWS and they will only be allowed a small amount of common animals I was talking to my local shop owner last week he is looking into it but says it look's like its more trouble than its worth to him he says that it should start next year ???


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## Hickson (Apr 20, 2008)

From what I have heard, the Minster has given his in principle approval to the idea. It will take a long time before it happens though.



Hix


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## SNAKEBOY33 (Apr 20, 2008)

Bring It On. It's Happening In Other States


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## mysnakesau (Apr 20, 2008)

SNAKEBOY33 said:


> Bring It On. It's Happening In Other States



I say BOOOOOOO. Don't want to see it happen. Reptiles will become another mistreated animal that can be offloaded or dumped at pet shops, and another avenue for hybrid breeders to promote their so-called rare and special designer breeds. Or tell the buyers that the animal is one thing and forget to mention the rest.


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## sc1010 (Apr 20, 2008)

mysnakesau said:


> I say BOOOOOOO. Don't want to see it happen. Reptiles will become another mistreated animal that can be offloaded or dumped at pet shops, and another avenue for hybrid breeders to promote their so-called rare and special designer breeds. Or tell the buyers that the animal is one thing and forget to mention the rest.



here here

and there are so many animals in pet shops are in such poor conditions, theres a fight to ban the selling of puppies and kittens from petshop windows, and now they are wanting reptiles to be sold in the same way...

Oh well, I guess you never know until it happens, the regulations might mean they take care of them as best they can.

Sophie


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## baxtor (Apr 20, 2008)

sc1010 said:


> here here
> 
> and there are so many animals in pet shops are in such poor conditions, theres a fight to ban the selling of puppies and kittens from petshop windows, and now they are wanting reptiles to be sold in the same way...
> 
> ...


and animals in poor conditions never occurs in backyard breeding? of course it does. At least in the case of pet shops it's in the public eye and more likely to be noticed.


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## sc1010 (Apr 20, 2008)

never said it didnt but at least they dont have thousands of people coming up and tapping on the glass in a backyard but im not making the rules so i dont really want to argue, i was just agreeing with what mysnakesau said


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## Jen (Apr 20, 2008)

I was for the selling of reps in pet shops until i moved to WA and saw the crappy conditions they are in - poo and bits of shed everywhere, and the shop assistants are about 12. If it is a specialised shop - such as the Garden of Eden in Morisset, or like the shop in Warnersbay, then ok, at least they will be looked after correctly, but not in 'regular' pet shops.


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## [email protected] (Apr 20, 2008)

Reptiles don't belong in pet stores, The best thing people can do is not buy them from there and also its cheeper to buy them from breeders that take more of an interest in them and there health. I had not long spoken to my reptile vet and his opinion about reptiles in pet stores and there products sold, like mite sprays, solutions and other medical treatments etc is where 50% of his work comes from .Not saying that its product is not ok but people not knowing how to administer the product and pet stores not understanding the right methods to look after snake in captivity. Like why on earth would you have reptiles 1 m across from where they sell there mice and caged birds on display for sale.


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Apr 20, 2008)

Yep, Hix is correct. I have a friend that owns a pet shop in NSW. The minister has passed it, then it goes to the floor for approval (something like that) which is about 99% guaranteed to be passed, and then it's full steam ahead. At the moment it looks like it is about a year away from being instigated.


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## cockney red (Apr 20, 2008)

*Shanes the man Jen.*


Jen said:


> I was for the selling of reps in pet shops until i moved to WA and saw the crappy conditions they are in - poo and bits of shed everywhere, and the shop assistants are about 12. If it is a specialised shop - such as the Garden of Eden in Morisset, or like the shop in Warnersbay, then ok, at least they will be looked after correctly, but not in 'regular' pet shops.


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## jessb (Apr 20, 2008)

I thought that we were heading the way of the UK and banning all pets being sold from petshops! That would ensure that people do a bit of research into appropriate breeds and choose an animal that suits their situation rather than seeing a cute golden retriever puppy in the window and taking it home to live in their tiny unit while they are at work for 10 hours a day!

I can't believe we are regressing and allowing _more_ pets to be sold to irresponsible impulse buyers...


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## mysnakesau (Apr 20, 2008)

jessb said:


> I thought that we were heading the way of the UK and banning all pets being sold from petshops! That would ensure that people do a bit of research into appropriate breeds and choose an animal that suits their situation rather than seeing a cute golden retriever puppy in the window and taking it home to live in their tiny unit while they are at work for 10 hours a day!
> 
> I can't believe we are regressing and allowing _more_ pets to be sold to irresponsible impulse buyers...



I say no to animals in pet shops.


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## wingnut (Apr 20, 2008)

if i lived over there i would feel much better going into a shop to buy then sending my money of to who knows who to who knows where and than hope and pray it arrives ....it looks like NSW is yrs beind the rest of your country, and more yrs behind the rest of the world....


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## Dan19 (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeah but you dont live here, so stop telling everyone to crossbreed and that we are years behind everyone and go away.


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## jessb (Apr 20, 2008)

wingnut said:


> if i lived over there i would feel much better going into a shop to buy then sending my money of to who knows who to who knows where and than hope and pray it arrives ....it looks like NSW is yrs beind the rest of your country, and more yrs behind the rest of the world....


 
LOL... Because you have soooo much credibility on this site after your "hybrids are good" rant in the crossbreeding thread!!!!! :lol:


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## Jen (Apr 20, 2008)

I'd rather be behind than an ***

pet shops are not the way to go, maybe instead we could have more expos?


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## 888lowndes888 (Apr 20, 2008)

Old wingnut seems to think malaysia is just THE most advanced country on the planet... I mean c'mon Australia we are 15 years behind because we arent bredding mutley hybrids... unlike the oh so advanced malaysia. Also pull your finger out NSW your once again so behind the super advanced Malaysia because we dont sell misstreated reptiles from petshops.


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## bcurko (Apr 20, 2008)

I agree go to some pet stores and the conditions are horrendous. I stand by the poster who recommended pets not be sold at pet shops at all. People might think every so often instead of just throwing money at the owners and then treating the animal like its a pos. 

I reckon their should be more sites like herptrader which you can trust for certain regions NSW|WA etc... that would be a nice smart change. 

Last thing we need is more death to reptiles then what is all ready caused by roads and ill minded people that get scared ****less when they see a snake and kill it. 

I say that law should be revoked !
Cheers bcurko


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## arbok (Apr 20, 2008)

pet industry news letter:

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Although New South Wales currently has a number of restrictions on the importation and sale of reptiles, the Minister for Climate Change, Environment and Water, Phil Koperberg, gave the Department of Environment and Climate Change (DECC) his approval in principle of a new commercial reptile traders license. This could allow NSW retailers to catch up with the other states and sell URS livestock such as the Blue-tongued Lizard through their own stores.[/FONT]


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## Vincent21 (Apr 20, 2008)

mysnakesau said:


> I say BOOOOOOO. Don't want to see it happen. Reptiles will become another mistreated animal that can be offloaded or dumped at pet shops, and another avenue for hybrid breeders to promote their so-called rare and special designer breeds. Or tell the buyers that the animal is one thing and forget to mention the rest.



I totally agree with this post!


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## pete12 (Apr 20, 2008)

herps are too expensive in pet shops anyway


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## Tatelina (Apr 20, 2008)

mysnakesau said:


> I say BOOOOOOO. Don't want to see it happen. Reptiles will become another mistreated animal that can be offloaded or dumped at pet shops, and another avenue for hybrid breeders to promote their so-called rare and special designer breeds. Or tell the buyers that the animal is one thing and forget to mention the rest.



Word.
Last thing we need is more disgusting hybrids ruining the animals we have.


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## euphorion (Apr 20, 2008)

look up clover moore, an independant MP in NSW who is working towards banning the sale of cats and dogs in pet shops (and other animals) if you have a facebook profile i have a group that covers these exact issues, and being that i'm up in QLD where reptiles are sold in pet shops theres stuff on that there too. its called 'ban the sale of cats and dogs in pet shops. so look it up, there are links to relevant sites and organisations too.

pets shops are just a means for irresponsible breeders to make a quick buck by passing off their bubs too early. from personal experience i saw a hatchy spotted have its neck clamped to stop it from regurgitating its food after being force fed, i asked why they bought them from the breeders like that and they simply said thats the way they do it. that hatchies 'always' need force feeding.


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## Jen (Apr 20, 2008)

could you post that facebook group? i'm sure it would be popular here


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## Armand (Apr 20, 2008)

mysnakesau said:


> I say BOOOOOOO. Don't want to see it happen. Reptiles will become another mistreated animal that can be offloaded or dumped at pet shops, and another avenue for hybrid breeders to promote their so-called rare and special designer breeds. Or tell the buyers that the animal is one thing and forget to mention the rest.


 
yeh i agree! as much as a love reptiles and want to see them more often i also reallt think they will become mistreated in petshops. It should stop in ALL states so that you can only get them at breeders like Southern X or Snake Ranch ect.. or private breeders too who actually put time and money into it.


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## Elapid_Boy (Apr 20, 2008)

first reps in pet shops, then they will add some reptiles too the exempt list which will then encourage on the spot buying= animals being treated like crap and being released into the wild. imo no native animals should be sold in pet shops


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## mysnakesau (Apr 20, 2008)

Even in recent months I have had ppl catch snakes out of their sheds and ask me to buy them. Ask them how much they want? They say, "well this guy would have to be worth $500." 
"Go release it back in ya barn mate."


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## ogg666 (Apr 20, 2008)

No To Pet Shops.............


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## Elapid_Boy (Apr 20, 2008)

at least FOR NOW you still have to have a licence to keep all reptiles, I think only reptile related shops should be aloud to sell, i really think its a wrong move


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## jessb (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm not sure that the problem is so much how snakes would be treated in petshops - that problem is more of a monitoring issue and as other people have pointed out, home breeders can be just as lax. I would be more concerned that making snakes available in petshops will lead to far more impulse purchases of reptiles, therefore more mistreatment (through ignorance or neglect) 

You see so many people on APS from out of NSW who have been given dreadful information by petshops which has led to illness or death of their animals. I can't see why this would be any different. I really believe that the steps that currently need to be undertaken in NSW to purchase a reptile (apply for a licence, find a breeder, usually organise transportation etc) are necessary to discourage impulse buyers (ie 16 year old boys who think it would be "cool" to have a snake) 

I only wish that people had to go through these steps before they get a dog!


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## euphorion (Apr 20, 2008)

Jen said:


> could you post that facebook group? i'm sure it would be popular here


 
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=18594055928


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## waikare (Apr 20, 2008)

Yea i was all in favour of the whole snakes in the pet stores thought it would b cool, i grew up in melb but knw live in syd and anyways went down to visit the folks and since i have evolved my passion for reptiles i thought i wld go this big petstore not far from where i grew up and to tell u the true it was exciting to c them live, but the girl working there had no idea about them they had no hides and where freaking from people walking past all the time, shed skin was still in the cages as was poo, and the where charging way to much, so i think i will just stick to a reputable breeder.


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## BJC-787 (Apr 20, 2008)

i think it is a good idea.

you can't tell me there is no mistreating of reptiles in private collections. 

also how can there be impulse buying when you need a licence to buy them.

as long as there is some strict regulations and montetering such as:
the shop has to have a licence and at least one trained person that has the correct knowledge to look after them.
limit the number of animals the shop can have at any one time.
limit the species they can sell to basic animals like blue tongues, beardies,childrens group.
inspections of the animals and conditions regulary.

what is the difference to a pet shop selling them and a person breeding and selling them from his house, or commercally like snake ranch (only one i can think of in nsw)


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## Elapid_Boy (Apr 20, 2008)

CASHO_B said:


> i think it is a good idea.
> 
> you can't tell me there is no mistreating of reptiles in private collections.
> 
> ...


 
thats the thing there wont be strict regulations because npws licencing is enromously under staffed. i think the animals welfare should also be looked at and if not in the correct set up or poorly kept, the licence would be removed for the shop and be unable to obtain one again.


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## Luke1 (Apr 20, 2008)

i haven't been bothered to read anything ebcaseu it takes to long, i'll read it next, but i reckon it has its ups and downs!
ups: 
gets people into keeping reptiles
easier to get reptiles
if people sell them in shops they are going tro have more things to do with reptiles!

downs:
i can so see someone going out to buy a snake and a person going in and getting bitten!
they could be treated poorly or with not proper noladge etc (i can't spell that work)
no one would want to come into a shop and see a snake being fed a at or something
and anything else has said!

Luke


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## Jakee (Apr 20, 2008)

Is there any shop where just herps and herp products and tanks are sold at ????


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## BJC-787 (Apr 20, 2008)

Luke1 said:


> downs:
> i can so see someone going out to buy a snake and a person going in and getting bitten!
> no one would want to come into a shop and see a snake being fed
> Luke



first they could use a little hook like those pocket hooks.
the shop could feed it just after they close and that way it would be gone when they come in the morning or if it is like the one i work at and we get there an hour before we open to clean feed them then.


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## pugsly (Apr 20, 2008)

The difference is (HOPEFULLY) when it happens in NSW Pet Shops, it will be done properly.

What I mean by this is that there will hopefully be tight monitoring, not everyone gets an automatic licence, the policy makers work side by side with the Reptile community to ensure that every possible concern is out on the table before they come up.

Anyway, I could go on for hours, but its 12 months minimum away yet, and by the speed NPWS work, make it 24.


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## Raptor_Reptiles (Apr 20, 2008)

Why should we have a six month rule of keeping a reptile you buy if a shop can bring them in and move them of straight away.This not only helps stop the turn over of reptiles for a quick buck but also helps to stop the spread of sickness and disease.Shops are just in it for a quick buck. 

I have previous dealings with a shop in the Melboure many years ago who sent sick adult jungles and darwins then tried to blame it on the air freight .They were taken to the vet on arrival(she said dont keep these guys in your house and gave me a nice bill at my expence)the were sent back the next day which then cost more frieght and the shop asked me never to speak of this with any one else, after they found out what was going on aweek later from their on vet .Down the track some one else i came across had the same thing happen from the exact same supplier with bredli.
.
A while ago i was supplying alot of live rats to a shop chain in nsw for years ,then one day they brought in a clause on the sale receipt that stated ( any sick or injuried animals within 21 days of the sale would be picked up and refunded) like i am responsable for what they do or what ever rodents they mixed in. I simply no longer supply them and sold only to regular buyers.

Down the track if any thing were to go wrong the shop owner would end up blaming the supplier (breeder) just to cover theirself thus giving someone a bad name that does not deserve it .


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## Spinipes (Apr 20, 2008)

was just talking to a friend who works for national parks. 95% chance it is not even going to happen, they looked at all the pros and the cons and the cons are much greater. the pet industry wants it but it aint gonna happen for a long time


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## bcurko (Apr 20, 2008)

Good we don't need more reptiles or any pets in general dying due to neglect and pet stores failing to educate the consumer properly.!


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## chilli (Apr 21, 2008)

arbok said:


> pet industry news letter:
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Although New South Wales currently has a number of restrictions on the importation and sale of reptiles, the Minister for Climate Change, Environment and Water, Phil Koperberg, gave the Department of Environment and Climate Change (DECC) his approval in principle of a new commercial reptile traders license. This could allow NSW retailers to catch up with the other states and sell URS livestock such as the Blue-tongued Lizard through their own stores.[/FONT]



disgraceful former minister


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## Sdaji (Apr 21, 2008)

Wow, public opinion actually seems to be improving! Remarkable!


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## DennisS (Apr 21, 2008)

Just have to say this, you said no to all animals gone from pet shops but how many of you people first became aware of reptiles from pet shops or got their first mammal/bird/fish/amphibian or insect from a pet shop to make you want to look closer into, or wanting to actually breed said animals. i dont have a problem with pet shops selling reptiles as long as they (the shop)are looked into and have the knowledge to sell the reptiles they want to sell and then are licensed by NPWS, as happens in S.A. also read the PIAA newsletter and N.S.W. are getting closer to being able to sell reptiles from pet shops


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## Hickson (Apr 21, 2008)

Unfortunately, it's going to happen.

What I'd like to see is part of the License fee for the Petshops to keep reptiles to fund more staff and resources for NPWS (or DECC as they are now known) so they _can _do regular checks. Of course, that wouyld mean the funds go directly to licensing/enforcement and not into a general operating fund.



Hix


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 21, 2008)

I think that if they are sold in pet shops they won't be as interesting coz people will relize were to get them nad if you want a pet that none has it won't be a snake or something and they will be mistreated the exact same way.
people that no nothing will go "ohh my snake can go for a month without food! it'll be alot cheaper now" adn they'll starve it:cry:
I say NOOOO go get 1 from some1 that knows what there doing!


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## wokka (Apr 21, 2008)

When i first got into reptiles i didn,t have access to the net.I stumbled accross a few breeders , bought a couple of animals only to find that those animals were wild caught and in one case sick.
Putting reptiles in petshops is the first step in bringing the hobby out from under the table(or the back alleys of McDonalds)
There are already dodgey sellers out there. The challenge is to develop a system which ensures accountability .Petshops at least have something to lose with their significant investment and public scutiny. You are kidding yourself if you think a private reptile owner with a couple of animals breeding in the back room has the same.How often do you see posts from people saying they just have to get rid of hatchoes because they dont have space to keep them. That sort of desperation encourages them to sell to anyone.


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## beeman (Apr 21, 2008)

Hope the department in NSW get the selling of reps in pet shops regulated 
properly, eg-husbandry, feeding ,handling etc, because in the majority of the 
pet shops i have seen all these basic things LACK GREATLY!
A lot of these shops are a source of mite infestations ri,s etc ans all they are worried
about is thier bottom line!


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## wokka (Apr 21, 2008)

Poor husbandry, mites or poor reputatio n should effect a petshops bottomline as they are under public scutiny. Private keepers on the otherhand are not!


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## beeman (Apr 21, 2008)

wokka said:


> Poor husbandry, mites or poor reputatio n should effect a petshops bottomline as they are under public scutiny. Private keepers on the otherhand are not!


 
That doesnt seem to make any difference to the pet shop trade!, They have been able to
keep reps in pet shops in vic for a long time and the majority are at best very poor in this regard.


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## GAR (Apr 21, 2008)

A lot of people are voicing opinions regarding the poor husbandry in pet stores as well as the lack of knowledge the staff have. Having experienced both side of the fence, i can say that in Vic, stores are inspected prior to licence approval for enclosure suitability and then several times a year at random and unanounced by DSE. How many private collectors undergo this scrutiny? 
This is a good system, however when DSE discovers that there is something wrong their ability to deal with this is slow and questionable, as was seen in the case of Melbourne's largest store. It took 12 months for this place to be closed down and it took 3 different organisations. In that time many animals suffered unnecessarily. Why it took this long who knows? 
Having reptiles in stores will help exposure of the hobby to the greater community and with this increased public visibility will come better husbandry, better knowledge and greater accountability. There will undoubtedly be cases of neglect however judging by many basic questions posted on this forum this is already going on inadvertently.
JMO but it seems that there needs to be a system that allows people who experience dishonest breeders/stores to make others aware so that they can avoid being stung by these same people. In this way it would be very difficult for these people to carry on that way for very long.


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## Ramsayi (Apr 21, 2008)

I made the trip down to Melbourne a few years ago and spent the day checking out the shops that sold reptiles.They ranged from barely adequate to downright disgraceful with their setups,cleanliness etc.

Im against petshops selling reptiles.One reason is they get their stock from multiple sources and have NO way of quarantining any animals coming in. 



GAR said:


> A lot of people are voicing opinions regarding the poor husbandry in pet stores as well as the lack of knowledge the staff have. Having experienced both side of the fence, i can say that in Vic, stores are inspected prior to licence approval for enclosure suitability and then several times a year at random and unanounced by DSE. How many private collectors undergo this scrutiny?
> This is a good system, however when DSE discovers that there is something wrong their ability to deal with this is slow and questionable, as was seen in the case of Melbourne's largest store. It took 12 months for this place to be closed down and it took 3 different organisations. In that time many animals suffered unnecessarily. Why it took this long who knows?
> Having reptiles in stores will help exposure of the hobby to the greater community and with this increased public visibility will come better husbandry, better knowledge and greater accountability. There will undoubtedly be cases of neglect however judging by many basic questions posted on this forum this is already going on inadvertently.
> JMO but it seems that there needs to be a system that allows people who experience dishonest breeders/stores to make others aware so that they can avoid being stung by these same people. In this way it would be very difficult for these people to carry on that way for very long.


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## wokka (Apr 21, 2008)

When I have sold animals to pet shops in Melbourne they have gone to the owners home for quarantine and checking for a few months then to the shops as required. This doesn't always happen with private breeders and in NSW its very difficult to quarantine at different properties with "the six month rule". NSW need to introduce and operate under standards for private or commercial licences wich address all the issue raised. A system which favours one group and penalises another doesn,t help the animals. Assuming that is the aim of the game??


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## python blue (Apr 21, 2008)

i personally cant wait for it to happen as wokka has said it will bring the hobby out of the back allys of mcdonalds carparks and so on but the pet shops wo do endevour to get this licence should have their own reptile licence for atleast 2 years that way they know how to care for the animals and an inspection every couple of months would work great well i think it will


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## Hickson (Apr 21, 2008)

I will still sell things in McDonald's carparks, because I don't want complete strangers knowing where I live. I probably won't be selling to petshops, because I can't control whether they will be looked after properly or not. Unless of course, the shop was run by someone I know who is good with reptiles (and there won't be too many of them, if Victoria is anything to go by).

I think many veteran herpetoculturists will have similar views.



Hix


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## wokka (Apr 21, 2008)

Most groups hates change and by definition the veterans have been doing the same old same old thing longest.


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## Hickson (Apr 21, 2008)

The veterans might have been doing the same old same old thing the longest, but they also have the wisdom of experience and are not subjected to the wide-eyed naivete of the enthusiastic newbies who have only been keeping a few years and think that petshops are simply another easy way to buy reptiles.



Hix


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## cruester (Apr 21, 2008)

PHEW; Im glad your only talking about PET SHOPS and not specialist reptile shops LOL :lol::lol::lol:. cheers Troy.


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## FAY (Apr 21, 2008)

They certainly need to make a lot of conditions to selling reptiles in petshops. From what I have experienced is that a lot of petshops employ the youngest people that they can so they don't have to pay high wages. UNLESS they are experienced, have done reptile keeping courses etc etc they give out the wrong information and kill the reptiles. ie we haven't got any small crix or woodies but you can feed them mealworms etc.A reptile is much different to look after than your cat or dog.
Yes, there are some dodgy people out there privately selling not good animals and giving out bad advice, but you will find that bad reputations spread like wild fire. I can name a few off the top of my head that I wouldn't trust with my pet rock.In pet shops you don't know the origin of the animal so I would be very reluctant to buy. JMO


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## mysnakesau (Apr 21, 2008)

CASHO_B said:


> i think it is a good idea.
> 
> you can't tell me there is no mistreating of reptiles in private collections.
> 
> ...



This is a good point and I could add a question to this one.....how many pet shops get blamed for the bad condition of the animals they have in their shop when they have been bought from no-gooders who started the neglect and palmed them off and made it someone else's problem to fix?

Licenses are so easy to get, impulse buying will happen, or kids will buy animals and the parents will bring them back and expect a refund.


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## Ramsayi (Apr 21, 2008)

Never thought I would agree with Hix but in this case I think he is 100% correct.

mysnakes,how can you blame the people flogging off animals that are in bad condition? Are petshops forced to take on sick or dying animals?


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## baxtor (Apr 21, 2008)

and no doubt pet shops were responsible for 9/11 too.


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## Jason (Apr 21, 2008)

i must admit i only red through the first 3 page of this thread (all the comments were the same)

im not for nor against it to be honest.

there are (imo) alot of very narrow minded comments in this thread. people think these shops are only after a quick buck, the ruth is, is that you really dont realise how most pet shops are run! 
i as some will know i work casually in a pet shop on the weekends. shops that want to sell reptiles in NSW will be very carefully selected requiring staff to attend training and understand the husbandary of reps, not only that surely poeple realise that there are a large number of pet shops that have no desire to sell reptiles nor their products.

the truth is, is that animals need to be sold at about 300% of the purchase price, how can you tell me that a shop will buy a jungle for 400 and manage to even get 1000 for it? the animals that are wanted to be sold are the easy to keep and sell animals that require products (cause thats where the money is made) think about this, how much does a beardie or turtle setup cost from a pet shop? your looking at a $100 lizard and $500 in products. shops are more interested in stocking reptiles cause it will promote the sale of products that the animals needs.

as for impulse buys, if you dont have a liscence you dont get to buy the animal. if you dont have the requirements you dont get the animals. not only that, people have mentioned that sales will encourage hybrids......? hows this? its illegal to breed them and it will be most likely against the law for the shops to sell them (this is what i hear).also as for a shop selling animals that require force feeding (mentioned in a previous post) its ilegal, we cant sell birds or any other animal that cant feed on its own, if the animal goes off food it would be covered under the health garentee (as long as the buyer is responsibly and properly looking after it). these shops dont want to rip you off or feed you crap info....they want your business and for you to come back time and time agian!

of course there are shops that will be crap, they will also make no money out of it and will most likely stop stocking the animals

as i said im not for it, this post is just in responce to some comments i keep hearing on this site. yes some shops will be bad, but im sure there are several people in this thread having a slag that keep their animals in terrible conditions. it happens more often then id like to think but with shops having rules and the licence to sell reps going to cost ALOT of money, its not worth their trouble unless they are willing to invest and do it right.


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## mick_304 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm not for or against but Who honestly would want to buy from a pet shop. have you seen the price of anything in there everything is at least 20% mark-up versus a shop that only deals in reptiles. So imagine what the cost of a reptile would be.


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## bcurko (Apr 21, 2008)

Central Bearded Dragon Very Rare Breed Normal Colours
Special Price of $599 Great Deal Without Enclosure
Thats something i will see eventually a huge giant markup.......


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## BJC-787 (Apr 21, 2008)

every one keeps saying that it happens like this in pet shops in another state so it will happen here it is not the case i think that nsw has the most strict set of laws in regards to keeping reptiles in a private collection so why would they not have really strict rules in the selling of reptiles in pet shops.


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## pugsly (Apr 21, 2008)

"I'm not for or against but Who honestly would want to buy from a pet shop"

Lots of people, as Wokka pointed out, Reptile owners are confined to the Maccas carparks, someone who has no idea on keeping them or no about internet forums, etc etc etc.

As for prices being exorborant, I dont think so either, what happens when the pet shop owner breeds the animals? He can sell them at normal price. Will get more business for doing so too.

Jump up and down all you like, I told you 6 months ago this was going to happen and everyone said 'no it wont'...

Now, the key is, as I said then, to get it right.


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## Jason (Apr 21, 2008)

mick_304 said:


> I'm not for or against but Who honestly would want to buy from a pet shop. have you seen the price of anything in there everything is at least 20% mark-up versus a shop that only deals in reptiles. So imagine what the cost of a reptile would be.



VERY true!! i work in a shop and still think its crazy to buy things there....haha. the prices are much higher then we are use to so im sure very few members will buy anything. the number of new keepers will be massive for the hobby in terms of new interest and possabilities! cant see impulse buys of beardies, blueis and turtles for 200 each.


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## Hickson (Apr 21, 2008)

Blueys for $200 each?

:shock:

Hix


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## dadaman (Apr 22, 2008)

I can see people buying reptiles from pet shops and loosing interest not far down the tack. They will likely dump them in the wild thinking that's where they came from in the first place. 
Look how many cats and dogs are dumped because they grow up.
I am against pet shops selling reptiles. If it happes (which no doubt it will), there needs to be very tight conditions placed on the owners and workers in those shops.


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## bennett (Apr 22, 2008)

some pet shops do some cruel things. i have no experiece with reptiles yet but i know what they do to fish. in some shops they tatoo the fish, dye them different colours, chop tails off so the fish look like love hearts etc ..
so if they start selling snakes what tricks could they get up to.

with that said some petshops will refuse to sell you animals if you dont have the right equipment to take care of them but more often then not they will sell you anything you want.


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## bcurko (Apr 22, 2008)

All it takes bennett is a flashing wad of cash or a credit card voila you have your sale.


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## bennett (Apr 22, 2008)

sad but true


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## aussiekev.n.s.w (Apr 22, 2008)

I agree it isnt such a good idea to have them available in pet shops i believe like WA alot of herps will be misstreated and also that even though you will be required to have a licence a flash of money could do the trick becuase face it there are people out therer trying 2 make a quick dollar. Not that im saying that will be the case everywhere


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## Jason (Apr 22, 2008)

Hix said:


> Blueys for $200 each?
> 
> :shock:
> 
> Hix



pbviously just an example of the rediculous prices some shops MAY be asking for. but my point is how can that promote an impulse buy? even 100 is crazy for a normal blue tongue these days.


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## stealbullets (Apr 22, 2008)

the only way it will be cheaper in shops is if the person breeds them. otherwise buying and selling wont be profitable, but hey, if a shop opens up and they want a breeder or keep to work there, then i would be glad to get payed, look after and play with the snakes for them, just to keep them from being to nippy ofcourse lol. it would be a good job for someone who loves pythons and it will reflect in the quallity of the snake.......not really for or against


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## [email protected] (Apr 22, 2008)

soon they might have bar codes on them and be sold at coles in the pet food section.
stimsons python 350g SAVE 9c


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## Sdaji (Apr 22, 2008)

I went to a couple of pet shops in Melbourne today. It's not at all unusual to see dead reptiles in shops with the prices still written on the enclosures, but this time I would have found it amusing if I wasn't so disgusted, as instead of a price, there was "SOLD" written on the enclosure containing two dead hatchling Bearded Dragons. Not bad for $150 each. I wonder if they'll just grab another two hatchlings and put them into the 'sold' enclosure before the buyer returns. Most likely they won't notice until the buyer returns. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one.

I saw water bowls containing what looked more like dirty vegemite than water, animals in extremely poor condition, animals which were clearly wild caught... amusingly when I asked if they sold finches for snake food they tried to sell me live mice, I had to say no three times before they stopped pestering me with the attempted sale. Strangely, despite being happy to poach and hideously neglect their animals, they don't sell live birds if they're to be used as food. Mice obviously have less rights than birds. I suppose that pet shop has only been dealing in reptiles for a little over ten years, you can't expect them to have worked out what they're doing just yet. Yes, the authorities have been called about this place many times over the last 10 years, no, nothing gets done, no, it's not the place on Springvale Rd.

Surprisingly I didn't see any mites today!


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## junglepython2 (Apr 22, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Surprisingly I didn't see any mites today!


 
Heh so the conditions were so bad not even the mites can make a living.


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## mysnakesau (Apr 22, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I went to a couple of pet shops in Melbourne today. It's not at all unusual to see dead reptiles in shops with the prices still written on the enclosures, but this time I would have found it amusing if I wasn't so disgusted, as instead of a price, there was "SOLD" written on the enclosure containing two dead hatchling Bearded Dragons. Not bad for $150 each. I wonder if they'll just grab another two hatchlings and put them into the 'sold' enclosure before the buyer returns. Most likely they won't notice until the buyer returns. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one.
> 
> I saw water bowls containing what looked more like dirty vegemite than water, animals in extremely poor condition, animals which were clearly wild caught... amusingly when I asked if they sold finches for snake food they tried to sell me live mice, I had to say no three times before they stopped pestering me with the attempted sale. Strangely, despite being happy to poach and hideously neglect their animals, they don't sell live birds if they're to be used as food. Mice obviously have less rights than birds. I suppose that pet shop has only been dealing in reptiles for a little over ten years, you can't expect them to have worked out what they're doing just yet. Yes, the authorities have been called about this place many times over the last 10 years, no, nothing gets done, no, it's not the place on Springvale Rd.
> 
> Surprisingly I didn't see any mites today!



That is sad  How can ppl choose pet industry as their business if they don't want to look after their animals. Those poor animals don't deserve that kind of life


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## Jason (Apr 22, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I went to a couple of pet shops in Melbourne today. It's not at all unusual to see dead reptiles in shops with the prices still written on the enclosures, but this time I would have found it amusing if I wasn't so disgusted, as instead of a price, there was "SOLD" written on the enclosure containing two dead hatchling Bearded Dragons. Not bad for $150 each. I wonder if they'll just grab another two hatchlings and put them into the 'sold' enclosure before the buyer returns. Most likely they won't notice until the buyer returns. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one.
> 
> I saw water bowls containing what looked more like dirty vegemite than water, animals in extremely poor condition, animals which were clearly wild caught... amusingly when I asked if they sold finches for snake food they tried to sell me live mice, I had to say no three times before they stopped pestering me with the attempted sale. Strangely, despite being happy to poach and hideously neglect their animals, they don't sell live birds if they're to be used as food. Mice obviously have less rights than birds. I suppose that pet shop has only been dealing in reptiles for a little over ten years, you can't expect them to have worked out what they're doing just yet. Yes, the authorities have been called about this place many times over the last 10 years, no, nothing gets done, no, it's not the place on Springvale Rd.
> 
> Surprisingly I didn't see any mites today!



haha.... very sad but i can see the amusing side, i too would love to be a fly on the wall. how'd they react when they were told they were dead? prob said they were just hibernating.....lol.
seriously though shops like that should have the animals removed then the owner should be made to live in a dump with dity water and little food in freezing conditions...see how they like it.



junglepython2 said:


> Heh so the conditions were so bad not even the mites can make a living.



lmfao...


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## mebebrian (Apr 22, 2008)

As long as there are strict rules enforced to prevent neglect, bad treatment and ill-informed purchases, such as only specialty reptile shops able to sell licenced animals. Not every shopping mall pet store!

And maybe a requirement for everyone applying for a licence to sell animals to attend a course and or pass a test.? And maybe a few guidelines like ensuring the shop, provide a standardised leaflet or caresheet for the species just purchased. Making sure all staff are educated or at least a licenced keeper is in the shop to answer questions and queries.

If all goes well it could be a really great thing for our hobby.... on the other hand...well lets just hope nsw doesnt get any shops like the one Sdaji visited!!!


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## junglepython2 (Apr 22, 2008)

mebebrian said:


> As long as there are strict rules enforced to prevent neglect, bad treatment and ill-informed purchases, such as only specialty reptile shops able to sell licenced animals. Not every shopping mall pet store!
> 
> And maybe a requirement for everyone applying for a licence to sell animals to attend a course and or pass a test.? And maybe a few guidelines like ensuring the shop, provide a standardised leaflet or caresheet for the species just purchased. Making sure all staff are educated or at least a licenced keeper is in the shop to answer questions and queries.
> 
> If all goes well it could be a really great thing for our hobby.... on the other hand...well lets just hope nsw doesnt get any shops like the one Sdaji visited!!!


 
Despite best intentions those kind of regulations will never be enforced.


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## Sdaji (Apr 22, 2008)

Yes yes, of course! NSW is sure to be able to succeed where every other Australian state has failed, plus all of the USA, plus Europe... yes yes, NSW is special.

I should move to NSW, I'll be able to cure cancer, build time machines out of bubble gum and match sticks and I'll bring about world peace within a week or two.


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## horsenz (Apr 22, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Yes yes, of course! NSW is sure to be able to succeed where every other Australian state has failed, plus all of the USA, plus Europe... yes yes, NSW is special.
> 
> I should move to NSW, I'll be able to cure cancer, build time machines out of bubble gum and match sticks and I'll bring about world peace within a week or two.



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Dan19 (Apr 22, 2008)

Hey Sdaji, can you say what shop that was, as i'm not sure if its the one that i visited a while back. You can pm it if you can be bothered.


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## beeman (Apr 22, 2008)

mebebrian said:


> As long as there are strict rules enforced to prevent neglect, bad treatment and ill-informed purchases, such as only specialty reptile shops able to sell licenced animals. Not every shopping mall pet store!
> 
> And maybe a requirement for everyone applying for a licence to sell animals to attend a course and or pass a test.? And maybe a few guidelines like ensuring the shop, provide a standardised leaflet or caresheet for the species just purchased. Making sure all staff are educated or at least a licenced keeper is in the shop to answer questions and queries.
> 
> If all goes well it could be a really great thing for our hobby.... on the other hand...well lets just hope nsw doesnt get any shops like the one Sdaji visited!!!


 

Sorry to tell you IT WONT make any difference, the experience that SDAJI had is a common
occurance, and you can report the offenders till you are blue in the face and the authorities
dont seem to want to do anything about it!


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## rebeccalg (Apr 22, 2008)

I am glad that our local pet shop is making the move away from selling live animals, aside from fish. Sydney's Mayor, Clover Moore is currently campaigning to ban the sale of pets in pet shops. I hope the bill will encompass reptiles too. 

http://www.clovermoore.com/main/page/489.pdf


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## Hetty (Apr 22, 2008)

rebeccalg said:


> I am glad that our local pet shop is making the move away from selling live animals, aside from fish. Sydney's Mayor, Clover Moore is currently campaigning to ban the sale of pets in pet shops. I hope the bill will encompass reptiles too.
> 
> http://www.clovermoore.com/main/page/489.pdf



That's the Animals (regulation of sale) Bill 2007
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/pr...58C7306802FB93CA257307001EFDE9?Open&shownotes

and, of course, it won't happen.


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## Sdaji (Apr 22, 2008)

There are legal implications involved with naming stores like this publicly. I'd love to post photographs.

In case the staff of the store are reading this thread... hello!

I'm the guy in the bright green shirt you tried to sell live feed mice to, the one who had to say no three times and you pestered even as I was walking to the door. Be glad I decided to think better of posting pictures.

Dan19: I've deliberately been vague, dead animals and squalid cages are pretty common among all of the shops. I don't think I've said anything that could identify the place, unless you happened to see dead beadies in an enclosure with 'sold' written on the front. Send me a PM if you like.


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## albino (Apr 22, 2008)

rebeccalg said:


> I am glad that our local pet shop is making the move away from selling live animals, aside from fish. Sydney's Mayor, Clover Moore is currently campaigning to ban the sale of pets in pet shops. I hope the bill will encompass reptiles too.


 

she's also against keeping native animals as pets at all and she is against using mammals as food, so if you are allowed to keep your snakes, they'll have to be vegans.

and sadji, if your experiences were justification for pet shops not dealing in herps then no-one could own them because the number of keepers who keep theirs in dirty conditions, sell their problem or diseased animals, and replace dead ones with others is many. it's a fact of life, there always has to be a 'worst' and best when comparing standards.


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## albino (Apr 23, 2008)

Hix said:


> The veterans might have been doing the same old same old thing the longest, but they also have the wisdom of experience and are not subjected to the wide-eyed naivete of the enthusiastic newbies who have only been keeping a few years and think that petshops are simply another easy way to buy reptiles.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix


 
that must be difficult, p*ssing in your own pocket. is your leg wet? you must be right with that argument. i'm with you until someone else tells me that their view is the right one to go with.


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## mr black (Apr 23, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I went to a couple of pet shops in Melbourne today. It's not at all unusual to see dead reptiles in shops with the prices still written on the enclosures, but this time I would have found it amusing if I wasn't so disgusted, as instead of a price, there was "SOLD" written on the enclosure containing two dead hatchling Bearded Dragons. Not bad for $150 each. I wonder if they'll just grab another two hatchlings and put them into the 'sold' enclosure before the buyer returns. Most likely they won't notice until the buyer returns. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one.



Am I horrible for only thinking about Monty Python's "Dead Parrot" sketch when I read that?


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## Hickson (Apr 23, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I should move to NSW, I'll be able to cure cancer, build time machines out of bubble gum and match sticks and I'll bring about world peace within a week or two.



I always wondered what happened to MacGyver.



Hix


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## herptrader (Apr 23, 2008)

I might be in the minority here but I would think that if pet shops are allowed to sell animals they should sell them at a premium that gives them sufficient profit that they can can and do take the effort to house them in pristine conditions.

Even if pet shops do sell reptiles and other live animals the profit is unlikely to be with the sale of the animals themselves but with the accessories and the follow up sales of food etc. The reason for having animals on display (even if they are not for sale) is to demonstrate how the husbandry wares, enclosures etc. they sell can be used thus helping them sell more of the profitable accessories. Even with a high mark up on the animals they are unlikely to make much of a profit from them.



[email protected] said:


> soon they might have bar codes on them and be sold at coles in the pet food section.
> stimsons python 350g SAVE 9c


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## pythonmum (Apr 23, 2008)

herptrader said:


> I might be in the minority here but I would think that if pet shops are allowed to sell animals they should sell them at a premium that gives them sufficient profit that they can can and do take the effort to house them in pristine conditions.
> 
> Even if pet shops do sell reptiles and other live animals the profit is unlikely to be with the sale of the animals themselves but with the accessories and the follow up sales of food etc. The reason for having animals on display (even if they are not for sale) is to demonstrate how the husbandry wares, enclosures etc. they sell can be used thus helping them sell more of the profitable accessories. Even with a high mark up on the animals they are unlikely to make much of a profit from them.


 
The pet shops I'm not fond of certainly sell puppies at a huge markup. Small fluffy mongrels (pardon me, 'designer dogs') go for $1000, but can be purchased from a rescue organisation a year later for $250. I watched someone buy a puppy in one of these shops and they were told to get all sorts of ridiculous gear like soft little beds which the dog was going to tear to shreds! The pet shop I like sells herp supplies and sets up demonstration enclosures with rubber snakes or plastic lizards in them. If you ask about herps, you find knowledgable staff and a nice selection of frozen rodents. I imagine that shop would sell herps well, but I hate to think of the conditions you'd find in the shops I don't like.


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## junglepython2 (Apr 23, 2008)

albino said:


> and sadji, if your experiences were justification for pet shops not dealing in herps then no-one could own them because the number of keepers who keep theirs in dirty conditions, sell their problem or diseased animals, and replace dead ones with others is many. it's a fact of life, there always has to be a 'worst' and best when comparing standards.


 
The difference between best and worst in vic is the best ones put the dead animals out the back, out of view.


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## mebebrian (Apr 23, 2008)

Just hope they make it really hard to gain a licence to sell in shops. And leave it to those with a genuine love for the hobby. Again i say Herp specialty shps only!!!!


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## grimbeny (Apr 23, 2008)

The fact of the matter is, NPWS will never have the resources to monitor this industry. Even if they required stores to have 'trained' staff what would constitute the training procedure. On another note quarantine will become an ever increasing problem, correct quarantining procedure is impossible in a petshop. 

Unfortunatly i think money will win out and the corporate industry will get what they want.


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## herptrader (Apr 23, 2008)

To summarize your point: "Even if their is sufficient markup to cover the cost of housing the animals properly it will still not happen."

The main reason for setting up the Herp Trader was to allow purchasers of reptiles direct access to the breeder. One of the biggest problems I have with even well run pet shops - and I believe there are some that do a reasonable job of selling reptiles, is that if there are problems then the breeder is the one best placed to respond to them. If you put the pet shop between this critical link is broken.

The ideal Pet Shop selling reptile products would be one that has the Herp Trader up and running for customers to check out while they were there. Come to think of it this is basically how the Herp Shop operates :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:



pythonmum said:


> The pet shops I'm not fond of certainly sell puppies at a huge markup. Small fluffy mongrels (pardon me, 'designer dogs') go for $1000, but can be purchased from a rescue organisation a year later for $250. I watched someone buy a puppy in one of these shops and they were told to get all sorts of ridiculous gear like soft little beds which the dog was going to tear to shreds! The pet shop I like sells herp supplies and sets up demonstration enclosures with rubber snakes or plastic lizards in them. If you ask about herps, you find knowledgable staff and a nice selection of frozen rodents. I imagine that shop would sell herps well, but I hate to think of the conditions you'd find in the shops I don't like.


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## euphorion (Apr 23, 2008)

regardless of price, live animals in petshops encourage impulse buying. pet shops would still be able to make a profit without selling the animal directly by passing on breeders details to interested customers. as for the reference to prices being high in petshops to maintain good conditions, its crap, i asked about this once and they simply said 'oh the high price is just to discourage impulse buying'... and the pups are in tiny cages with no airflow


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## GAR (Apr 23, 2008)

I recently bought animals from a person who frequents this forum and claims to have been one of NSW biggest breeders. I have purchased quite a lot of quality animals from him in the past. This time however i had 3 snakes die within the first 4 days. Its not me because the other 20 in the same rack are doing fine. When contacted his response was bad luck. Not only have i lost 3 snakes but I now have to quarantine that rack for an extended period which creates more work.
He obviously can't look after himself anymore let alone his animals but how could i have known that?
My point is that if he had been a store, my avenues of recourse would have been much better and i would have been able to see over time that his husbandry practices had gone down hill.
I realise that there are 2 arguments going on here. 
Firstly there is the issue of animal rights which everyone is passionate about, however the relative departments will succumb to the many complaints they will get and in time fix the problem or shut it down.
The second issue is that if you go into a store that has poor hygiene practices then you know this before you purchase an animal and you simply do not shop there.


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## mick_304 (Apr 23, 2008)

Another way of looking at it is, hatchlings we keep them in small click clacks dont handle them much. now look at a pet shop trying to sell these they will be in the open people touching them all the time most of these snakes will die from stress or will refuse to eat, so when people buy tem they will have no knowledge on how to get there reptile healthy again. because the 15 year old attendant needs to sell something to someone else. back to the prices i went past a pet sop and saw a foxy X maltese for $1000 that is ridiculous.


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## wokka (May 29, 2008)

I hope you didn't impulse buy the foxy.


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## Stark (Aug 15, 2008)

I hope to never see them in pet stores.

I am quite into fish keeping as my other hobby and to see the ways fish are kept in stores is just appalling, you pay a fortune because they expect 50% of their stock to die before it can be sold.

Most the twits in pet stores cant even get it right with fish, "Yeah, that adult angel fish will go well with those neon tetras" "You wont need a big tank for a clown loach" "Bettas dont need heat! They live out in the open" (in rice patties in asia where the water is 30 degrees not 8 degrees. 

One pet store had a tank full of fish all being treated for ick, most of them on the verge of half dead, and they still tried to sell me the fish at full price!

Dont even get me started on "painted" fish "Yes, they just inject this brightly colored dye into the fish, they dont feel pain and will live a happy and healthy life"

I dont want to even imagine anything like this happening with herps.


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## Vincey (Aug 15, 2008)

sc1010 said:


> here here
> 
> and there are so many animals in pet shops are in such poor conditions, theres a fight to ban the selling of puppies and kittens from petshop windows, and now they are wanting reptiles to be sold in the same way...
> 
> ...



We already keep them in the same sized enclosures at home, so why not?

Pet shops in Perth are doing it fine. I have been into many and have not seen one bad set up yet. The only thing that hurts anybody else is the prices ><


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