# Pygmy stimson's python



## sarah_m (Jul 24, 2009)

I saw an ad rescently on Herptrader for Pygmy Stimsons pythons and i was wondering if anyone can tell me if these are a recognised sub species or if there is a particular locale that these smaller stimsons originate from?
Any info would be much appreciated, Google got me nowhere.

Ta, Sarah


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## No-two (Jul 24, 2009)

They're mossman locality, just a small local, nice animals.


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## sarah_m (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks. Do you keep them? Do you know if they hold onto their patterns with age?


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## JasonL (Jul 24, 2009)

I had some in my hands recently, very different looking imo.


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## No-two (Jul 24, 2009)

sarah_m said:


> Thanks. Do you keep them? Do you know if they hold onto their patterns with age?


 
I keep them yes, I think they hold their paterns pretty well, but I wouldn't know mine are only young.


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## sarah_m (Jul 24, 2009)

JasonL said:


> I had some in my hands recently, very different looking imo.


Can i ask what you mean when you say "different looking"? Are you talking colourwise?


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## JasonL (Jul 25, 2009)

No, body shape, very short and squat looking compaired to other Antaresia of the same size. See how they pan out as they grow, they were only 8 month olds I was looking at. They were also very bitey little critters.


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## ravan (Jul 25, 2009)

no-two thats a great looking one! how much do they go for?


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## No-two (Jul 25, 2009)

ravan said:


> no-two thats a great looking one! how much do they go for?


 
I think $1200 a pair, I have no idea about singles though.


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## JasonL (Jul 25, 2009)

The person I know bought a pair for $1000.


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## nuthn2do (Jul 25, 2009)

Mine is 5 years old, approx 65cm long and no thicker than a mans thumb. Her patterning is still high contrast but she's bad tempered and head that's ugly as sin.


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## -Matt- (Jul 25, 2009)

The adults that Ive seen (and they could even be the parents of yours No-Two but im not sure) were only around the 60cm max mark and no thicker than my thumb, much small than a regular stimsoni with a different body shape...also didnt have a very good temper at all. Very nice looking little pythons though, especially the ones with the thicker banding.


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## Boney (Jul 25, 2009)

dont know about other peoples but mine are a proven line about 16 years . max out at about 170 grams and about 50-60 cm . pic of some adults . and yeh all mine are very bitey .


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## No-two (Jul 25, 2009)

My male is a dream to handle, loves his food though, Andy I think you should sell me that one in the front, very nice.


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## Boney (Jul 26, 2009)

Hayden , another thing ive found with them that they change colour alot sometimes they go real blonde and have a 3 toned colour appearence could stay like that for a few weeks then they might go real drab and dark again . like a mood swing but have nothing to do with going into a shed routine . i have 10 adults all look pretty much the same .and all change colour all the time .


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## bigguy (Jul 26, 2009)

Their locality is definately not Mossman. You will only find Spotted Pythons there. They actually occur on the top and the Western Slopes of the Athertons


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## Boney (Jul 26, 2009)

thanks for your input BOB i know you have done quite abit of herping in the field sorry you didnt find any there they where found in mossman so we better start calling them spotteds then . if you got a prob with it ill give you a number for the bloke that still has them 16 or so years old his are . call him a liar and if your right its only fair to get to the bottom of the true locality . mount carbine like others have said in the past has never been mentioned by this bloke . 

pretty rude to say a blokes animals arnt what they say they are .. question it maybe ..


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 26, 2009)

Those little stimsons are very common at Mt Carbine. Personally I have onle encounters Macs at Mossman but never did a huge amount of exploring there.


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## bigguy (Jul 27, 2009)

Andy

Did not call anyone a liar. Just stated a fact. Mossman is on the coast between Port Douglas and Cooktown. This is Blond Mac territory . Stimsons are just not known to be found on the coast with the excemtion of WA. This species likes dry habit , and is not found in rainforests like on the Qld Coast

Check the collection details again. Did the person actually collect them there, or was he living there and travelling inland where they were probably more likely collected.

I had a few herp mates that lived at Mossman, plus I myself and many other herpers both local( like Dave or Tremain) and from interstate have spent heaps of time herping here have never even heard of any 
Stimsons found here. However, we have all seen them at Mt Carbine and on the Western slopes.

There was a similar claim to the Normington Stimsons. Again this is Childreni habitat on the Western Coast of Cape York and Stimsons are not found here either.


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## Boney (Jul 27, 2009)

BOB,

i appreciate what you are saying but..

if a bloke has said they where found in a certain local you turn around and say they are not found in that area yes you are calling them a liar. which is fair enough if you say it to their face and prove it otherwise .which you have not . you can only say you havent found stimos there. 

so what you are saying is if you or your mates havent found it. it dont exist. :?

at the end of the day i dont care ill call them the same untill the bloke i bought my originals from is proven or admits he has no clue what hes talking about .(WHICH COULD TURN OUT TO BE THE CASE) . and if he is ill be up for a new name change for anyone that does care the person that is responsible for the locality and pygmy name for this line is the current president of the port mac reptile club Michael banichk take it up with him. let us no how you go otherwise pull your heads in hes the one no doubts there thanks ANDY


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## pythons73 (Jul 27, 2009)

Either way i couldnt care less where there from,they are awesome little pythons Andy.I no Michael has been in the herping scene for quite alot of years and hes been here,there and everywhere,he certaintly wouldnt put a name,or locality on anything if he doesnt no.I have spoken to him on many occasions and he has alot of knowledge...Anyhow Andy they are stunning...


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## nathancl (Jul 27, 2009)

hate to break it to ya kiddo but mossman is spotted python habitat and as stated before stimmies dont come into play until you drive west of there. it might just be a mis understanding etc im not saying this person is a liar either im just saying for those snakes to be stimsoni they can not have been found in mossman thats all


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## ad (Jul 27, 2009)

Although my herping hasnt been extensive up there, I have seen animals from both locales and would agree that Mossman isnt the locale for these animals, 
I would say there has been some confusion with this lineage.


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## Kris (Jul 27, 2009)

I'd be agreeing with Bob on this one. Mossman is in Spotted territory. I've never bothered much with anteresia, do the scale counts vary much between normal spotteds and pygmy spotteds/stimmies?
Kris.


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## ihaveherps (Jul 27, 2009)

Andy, not here to bag you, but I think you should ring Michael yourself... I think you will find that there has been a slight mis-communication somewhere along the lines, and your mossman should actually be "caught within 50kms of Mossman" ...


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## bigguy (Jul 27, 2009)

Andy

Well I did my homework, and what a surprise, the origionals breeders were collected at Mt Carbine. Several were collected by a local, and two more were collected by a well known Port Mac herper who was taken out by the same local while visiting up there. These animals then went to a second indiviual and then finally ended up with Michael.

Michael Banichk was the 3rd owner of the origional breeders and never collected them. On talking to the actual person who caught half of them, they were ALL collected along the same short stretch of road near Mt Carbine. He also stated none were from Mossman as they are not found there.

Obviosly there was a comunication problen regarding there locality and if Michael thought it was Mossman , he was wrong . Still they are great little snakes


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## python_heath (Jul 27, 2009)

JasonL said:


> No, body shape, very short and squat looking compaired to other Antaresia of the same size. See how they pan out as they grow, they were only 8 month olds I was looking at. They were also very bitey little critters.


 
When you've got the word pygmy and the stimsons python you've got something pretty dam small.


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## mungus (Jul 27, 2009)

bigguy said:


> Andy
> 
> Well I did my homework, and what a surprise, the origionals breeders were collected at Mt Carbine. Several were collected by a local, and two more were collected by a well known Port Mac herper who was taken out by the same local while visiting up there. These animals then went to a second indiviual and then finally ended up with Michael.
> 
> ...



So all along these great little snakes were advertised with the wrong locale ??
Cant beat experience I say.....................
Thanks for the correct info Bob.


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## orsm (Jul 27, 2009)

Thanks for info Bob.


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## wranga (Jul 27, 2009)

forgetting about the locality. dose anyone have some pictures that they can post please


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## bigguy (Jul 27, 2009)

Wranga

Andy has posted a pic of some of these on the front page of this thread. Beautiful little snakes and give Perthensis a run for the worlds smallest python species


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## scorps (Jul 27, 2009)

I new it, lol. As soon as i read hayden saying mossy locality I got straight onto him and said they whernt lol, You just dont find stimmos in mossy


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## No-two (Jul 28, 2009)

scorps said:


> I new it, lol. As soon as i read hayden saying mossy locality I got straight onto him and said they whernt lol, You just dont find stimmos in mossy


 
I said 'mossman' actually, I was the one telling you it was bullshit and I didn't belive it.


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## Boney (Jul 28, 2009)

Bob , 

with all due respect , all you have written is a heap of words on the screen at this stage . no names no nothing to back up your claims at least i gave a name off the person who i bought my original animals off . in saying this you are not the first person as i metioned in a earlier post more successful herper such as john w said he thinks the same as you . but mate i didnt buy them off you i bought them off michael so i took his word .like you should . i also admit how could you get mossman and carbine mixed up they dont even sound the same . but like i said a phone number of the poacher that sold them to michael would be good .


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## nathancl (Jul 28, 2009)

hahahahhaahahahahahhahah


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## coz666 (Jul 28, 2009)

scientifically, there just stimsons. hahaha


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 28, 2009)

Andy
I hardly think Bob is going give the poachers name here just to prove something to you, so lets keep it real.
Also why should Bob simply believe your friend when his own experience contradicts your friends.
At the end of the day you are free to believe what, or who you like but I tend to think in this case you are a tad blind. No offense intended.
Could it be the case that your friend just considers Mt Carbine as part of the Mossman area?

Regards Dave


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## Boney (Jul 28, 2009)

from my understanding mossman from mount carbine is like 30kms if this is the case big deal . its more then possible a few came into mossman . i dont no the area . is this true? and if it is a further nothing has been proven otherwise anyway. and to keep things real no i didnt think Bobs claims would be backed up in this thread . and if it is like 30 kms difference no worse then port mac carpets that really came from warchope, kempsey ,coffs,telegraph point, , ect being sold as port macs which rarely are from the port mac these days . . 


but at the end of the day i would like to no the true locality confirmed otherwise .as i do have heaps of ants and these ones are my favorites .


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## slacker (Jul 28, 2009)

ANTARESIA1 said:


> from my understanding mossman from mount carbine is like 30kms if this is the case big deal



Yep, looks to be about 25-30km as the crow flies. I can imagine (pure speculation here of course) a discussion which could lead to the localities being confused:

Person A: I have these great little stims....
Person B: Yeah? What's their locality?
Person A: Mt Carbine
Person B: Where the hell is Mt Carbine?
Person A: Just a stones throw from Mossman

In reality, it's not really a huge deal. Having said that, I do have some of these little guys myself and I'd love to have a _concrete_ locality for them.


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## mungus (Jul 28, 2009)

I'd put down Mt Carbine and you wont go wrong.


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## rodney (Jul 28, 2009)

Dave
I think Andy is the one that is keeping it real. He did not start it Bob did, he stated that Andy was wrong on his location. Which may or may not be right but Andy is showing some integrity in excepting what he was told by a respected herper until proven wrong which hasn't happened. Bob has not given a name or anything to back up his claim, Andy has. I know of two locations central NSW where I have found spotted pythons. Very few people know their there but they are, the same could apply to Mossman.


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## nathancl (Jul 28, 2009)

you people are strange ...... how can you actually believe these animals are from mossman if they are stimsoni ? open a field guide and read a little its not hard to figure out.


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## scam7278 (Jul 28, 2009)

could they really be pygmy spotteds then if they were from mossman? LOL


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## slacker (Jul 28, 2009)

nathancl said:


> you people are strange ...... how can you actually believe these animals are from mossman if they are stimsoni ? open a field guide and read a little its not hard to figure out.



Distribution maps aren't always right mate... reptiles don't sit around thinking "Hey, crap, I can't go there that's not on my distrubtion map!"

Things get even more hazy when you're nearing the so-called species boundaries. Where does one stop and the next one start?

We all know that according to the maps it's maculosa territory, but personally I've never been herping up there so how am I to know for sure one way or the other?


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## nathancl (Jul 28, 2009)

ive been up there and found maculosa.

distribution maps maybe not so accurate but micro habitats are usually fairly right and stimsoni dont occur in rainforests


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## rodney (Jul 28, 2009)

Nathan
Strange, I think believing stimsons can read a field guide and stay in the area that the guide says where there from is a little strange. All of us that go out into the bush soon realize its just that a guide.


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## slacker (Jul 28, 2009)

nathancl said:


> ive been up there and found maculosa.
> 
> distribution maps maybe not so accurate but micro habitats are usually fairly right and stimsoni dont occur in rainforests



I think I recall another thread on these guys where Bob, Dave or Roger (sorry guys, can't remember who it was) said these "pygmy stimsoni" are also found in Atherton & Mareeba.


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## nathancl (Jul 28, 2009)

Rodney, i have spent alot of time in the bush to realise this. in regards to your maculosa finds if they are outside known areas for them perhaps you should notify the museum or write a range extension paper as i did for Varanus tristis.

Slacker, you will find the country around mareeba and in particular on the road west of mareeba is much more suited to a stimsoni as it is alot more dry.


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## Ozzie Python (Jul 28, 2009)

can anyone shed some light on how to accurately id the different members of the Antaresia group? i thought the scale counts where not an accurate indicator. Do we base it purely on distribution maps and appearance?


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## rodney (Jul 28, 2009)

Nathan
If you realise this then I guess you accept they are sometimes found outside their known area's. Which could possible be the case in Mossman. And as far as writing a paper on the spotted some of us don't feel the need.


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## slacker (Jul 28, 2009)

nathancl said:


> Slacker, you will find the country around mareeba and in particular on the road west of mareeba is much more suited to a stimsoni as it is alot more dry.



Righto, as I've said, I've never been up there. It was my understanding that the Atherton area was primarily rainforest.



Ozzie Python said:


> can anyone shed some light on how to accurately id the different members of the Antaresia group? i thought the scale counts where not an accurate indicator. Do we base it purely on distribution maps and appearance?



Appearance and distribution maps to my understanding, except perthensis which can (sometimes?) have scale counts differing from stimsoni.

This is where things can get a bit tricky with Antaresia. For example, I have some Undara locality "Antaresia" which anyone would swear are 100% maculosa, some might even say "blondes." But there's apparently animals which appear to be maculosa, and animals which appear to be stimsoni and intermediate animals found in that location.


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## Boney (Jul 28, 2009)

:lol:SO IT IS ONLY 30 KMS  ....... so really it just seems like a poor way about going look at me ,look at me ....why would you bother it is more then clear to me now my friend michael could be right. he said they where found in a small pocket of scrub( ect ) at mossman . 30kms from where bob is saying is not to hard to believe . all this talk about macs only found there . another well known herper tryed to convince me they where a natual intergrade . which could be true also .... so yeah thanks for nothing all the doubters like i said pull your heads in . because BOB could be wrong and yes he could be right . 30kms :lol: i might just call them qld giant stimo mac intergrades . that will be as accurate as someone going, i got a pilbra stimo, at least im heading in the right direction ... and these things are not just stimos they are very different in shape and size so it does matter


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## ad (Jul 28, 2009)

Wow, all the people who believe these stimmies are from Mossman have never been there obviously,
Not hard to believe when you consider the contrast in vegetation betweem the 2 places.
Its not just like your next suburb away, 
Go visit the places and make your judgement, not on what you imagine it is like, they vary greatly.
Cheers
Adam.


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## scam7278 (Jul 28, 2009)

why dont you just call them pygmy antaresia?


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## Kris (Jul 28, 2009)

I can see it now..."Northern Rainforest Stimmies for sale".....


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## Boney (Jul 28, 2009)

hobbo said:


> why dont you just call them pygmy antaresia?


 that would be to easy hobs . but you still get people saying that part aint true either . .no.... my ones ill just call them what they where sold to me as same as any other of my pythons . this sort of thing is nothing new people like to bag jungle localitys, diamonds , snake ranch wheatbelts ect . :lol: really if you didnt catch it yourself you cant be 100% sure .


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## nathancl (Jul 28, 2009)

mate i didnt buy them off you i bought them off michael so i took his word [/QUOTE said:


> really if you didnt catch it yourself you cant be 100% sure .[/quote said:
> 
> 
> > nothing sweeter than a contradictory statement hahahahha


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## jacorin (Jul 28, 2009)

mmmmmmmmmm and here i was thinking Mossman was a suburb in Sydney :O:O well there u go,learn sumfin new evry day


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## rodney (Jul 28, 2009)

We keep hearing that they cant be found in Mossman because stimsons aren't found in rain forests, and usually they aren't. But these aren't the same as other stimsons, they look different in many ways and of course half the size. So because of the fact that they are different couldn't they be found in different habitat than normal.


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## Boney (Jul 28, 2009)

nathancl said:


> nothing sweeter than a contradictory statement hahahahha


 
your a clown , ive said i bought them as such right from the start . also from the start ive never said BOB IS WRONG or im 100 % right just there is more then a chance they where found at mossman . ive had nothing then personally experiance to say otherwise . so im not 100% sure .. but found no need for a name change yet .. hahahahaha yourself you got nothing mate other then crap to say . at least BOB has had ago you done squat


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## nathancl (Jul 28, 2009)

lol yet you have said all thread that they are mossman stimmies and you whole heartedly beleive that because thats what your told yet now you say you cant be sure unless you caught them yourself 

loser lol


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## cairnscarpets (Jul 28, 2009)

there are hundreds of them from mt molloy to mt carbine and up to bob's lookout, on any warm night you can find them on the road soaking up the heat from the bitumin, one of the easiest pythons to find in nort qld, for me anyway. dont know why they cost so much it's not like there rare.


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## ihaveherps (Jul 28, 2009)

This is a moot thread for me, as I have no vested interest what so ever, but here goes my few cents into the thread....

I can easily understand where Andy is coming from, taking the word of the seller as to the locale of the animals... not degrading anyones opinions put forward in the thread (alot of which I agree with and/or have some information on the line similar), but its a tall order for someone to definitively change the locale on advice of people on a forum. We have all seen animals questioned on here daily, with all kinds of people throwing their 2 cents in, and if these animals had their locales changed on forum members whims, then the whole idea of locale animals would become a joke.

That being said, in this case I think these animals are mis-represented, not on the basis of anything written in this thread, more my understanding of this line (though Bob has some rather compelling points with his micro-habitats and distribution)... though that is not to say I believe Andy is in any way trying to be under-handed either, he is just passing on the info as he believes it was to him.

I dont know, to me locale info is paramount , and if it isnt concrete, undisputable, I personally would rather it not given. Slacker raised the point of a possible locale natural intergrade, which I find as interesting as any sub-specifically pure locale animal, the locale being the key..... Taxonomy is a fickle science, fluid and forever changing, though the members of a particular locale population, would rarely, if ever, be split into seperate subspecies, and at worst be grouped as a transitional form or natural intergrade.

Anyway Andy, all this crap slinging boils down to what part of the amateur herp market you are aiming these stimmys at.... if its the average Joe then your sweet.... if its the locale collectors, then I suggest you try dig up as much info as you can on this line, and set the recrord as straight as you possibly can, otherwise this ambiguity takes the gloss off their appeal.


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## herpkeeper (Jul 28, 2009)

cairnscarpets said:


> there are hundreds of them from mt molloy to mt carbine and up to bob's lookout, on any warm night you can find them on the road soaking up the heat from the bitumin, one of the easiest pythons to find in nort qld, for me anyway. dont know why they cost so much it's not like there rare.


 

photos to back this up ? 

& Andy, I've racked up over 200,000km's herping in North QLD in the last 3 years and I've never seen a Stimson east of the divide...

cheers HK.


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## JasonL (Jul 28, 2009)

herpkeeper said:


> photos to back this up ?
> 
> & Andy, I've racked up over 200,000km's herping in North QLD in the last 3 years and I've never seen a Stimson east of the divide...
> 
> cheers HK.



Maybe thats cause you can tell the difference between stimmos and spotteds


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## herpkeeper (Jul 28, 2009)

PICS ?


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## Boney (Jul 28, 2009)

i know michael has the gps co-ordinents for this local so why would i back down . ill just take his word for now . untill proven otherwise which has not been done here . im the only one that has provided a name no -one has even bothered to put up any other pics . . 

there will be no name changes over this thread thats for sure . like has been said every local is going to be questioned at some time like ive said people have challenged that they are even stims ,intergrades, macs , or i just dont feed them making them smaller. ive had them for years not like alot of people who care to comment . 

at the end of the day BOB has stuck his neck out over 24,000 metres . we have found maccies at the bottom of the KELVIN mountains but we call them tamworth macs . port mac carpets are more common around wauchope ,kempsey... big deal . who can be bothered to go out of there way to say. look mate i dont think your python is found at a certain local you said.. i think it was found up the road next to someones letter box . but infact the person that has challenged you cant prove it either way but to only talk about what tree the python likes to sleep in . and let everyone know about his vast travels


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## bigguy (Jul 29, 2009)

First of all I will state I never origional attacked Andies local for the Pygmy Stimo's as I have just read. It was No-two that I replied too. Andy attack my thread , which by the way I have shown was accurate and I proved it.

Andy gave us the name of his supplyer of the pygmys so I did my homework. As Michael never caught them, and was actually the 3rd person to own them HOW can he varify their collection location as it is only hearsay. He can not, just as Andy can not either being the 4th owner and again reciting hearsay.

So who can actually varify their true local. One answer, the persons who collected them. I have spoken to one of them who told me exactly were he collected them, and was informed the others were collected at the same spot by the same herper who took him there. You can not get much more accurate info then that.

For legal reasons I can not name the persons who collected them as under Qld law they could be prosercuted if this thread was seen by officals. However, if Andy wishes to know the name give me a ring and I will let you know. I will even give you his phone number so you Andy can talk to him. And you do know him.

For all those who think the disatance between Mt Carbine and Mossman is close enough they may have moved there, get in a car and drive up there. They are two totally different environments. One of the main reasons for sub species is environmental barriers such as can be seen here. Stimsons love dry regions and the rainforests from below Mt Carbine to the coast is the barrier, not to mention the massive mountain range dropping down to the coast

RSP's live in rainforests and are not found even 2 klms from the coast in the Kimberlys. GTP live at Iron Range in the rainforest, yet 30 klms away is dry forest, and guess what, no GTP's. Its the same with the Stimson's. 30klms of rainforests is a barrier they do not cross. And what about Jungles. Black and Whites live a Julation and Athertons live on the Atherton ranges. Both are close to Cairns, so why not call them both Cairns jungles. Probably they hav'nt been called that as they arn't found at Cairns.

As for the talk of these being intergrades, not a chance. These are pure Stimsons that are locally specific to the Mt Carbine area and the western slopes and have a dwarf gene. Why are they so expensive. Easy answer. Very few people have them even though they are common where they are found. Just like most over species of pythons were expensive till they became common.


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## scam7278 (Jul 29, 2009)

this is the problem i have with local specific animals.....the locality of these snakes have been thrown around on this thread and how common they are in the area aswell as the high price of of these stimmies.Whats stopping people now heading out to mt carbine and poaching the hell out of the area?.... and please dont say licenceing will stop them because you know it wont. If you want loc al specific animals why not keep it between buyer and seller rather than posting locations on a public forum?


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## Boney (Jul 29, 2009)

you are 100% right Hobbs . why the hell would you give out the the excact spot on local for a high priced animal if any . i already new my friend was told the co-ordinates to this location . mossman was close enough for me to tell people . but for some reason people have to make themselves look good by proving them wrong . darwin carpets are called darwins but i bet they arent all found drinking at the local pub in darwin but found more then 50 kms away or hell further . but thats good enough .. i also sort of new who michael got them off . i also still believe they are not confined to a invisible line defined by habitat. also if they are or arnt intergrades i would like to know how you can or cant prove it . personal opinions dont wash for me . they could even be a seperate species might call them this time banded depresed head macstimsons :lol: serious but ,the thing i dont get is why try take the gloss off someones animals just to prove a point . and how come BOB dont have any since he has found so many . why are they still so rare ? if everyone KnoWs so much how come my animals are the only ones in this thread about pygmy stims someONE pleaSE Put some more pics up of these stims from around this area .


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## slacker (Jul 29, 2009)

bigguy said:


> As for the talk of these being intergrades, not a chance. These are pure Stimsons that are locally specific to the Mt Carbine area and the western slopes and have a dwarf gene.



I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but since I did mention some locality specific possible intergrades that I have, earlier in this thread, I would like to clarify that I have no reason to believe these "pygmy stimsoni" are in any way similar and it was not my intention to imply anything of the sort.


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## herpkeeper (Jul 29, 2009)

hobbo said:


> .Whats stopping people now heading out to mt carbine and poaching the hell out of the area?.... ?


 
watch how many of these things start popping up over the next 2 season's now that people know exactly where to look for them :lol:


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## ad (Jul 29, 2009)

Here is one of mine from Mt Carbine, not a great example but I find they wash out as adults anyway, there are ones with a yellow colouration, this is what needs developing in this line,
The hatchlings look great, but.


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## nathancl (Jul 29, 2009)

antaresia, just because a person has found so many of these animals in the wild what makes you think they should have some ? if that was the case my collection would be huge and full of lots of weird and wonderfuls.

also with the locality, you where happy to ssay they where found in mossman without the thought of poaching in the mossman area as soon as someone says mt carbine its not ok because the area will be poached ? do you not think if people wanted to find them and you where saying they are from mossman they would go there?


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## JasonL (Jul 29, 2009)

Thanks for clearing the locale up on those Bob, I highly doubted they would of come from MG, and wondered if they were just some hybrid thing someone had created, a dodgy locale gives an animal no credit, and puts a taint over the whole thing. They are for certain an interesting Antaresia, and well worth looking at getting if your into the little pythons..... Here's a pic of my Claytons Pygmy Banded Stimmie , it will have to do for now.....
I don't think it's a Mt Carbine or MG locale though :lol:


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## bigguy (Jul 29, 2009)

At one point in time I had over 100 pairs of antaresia, which covered all 4 species and most colour variations found around Australia, including the pygmy stimsons. Even did lectures in herp societies about the different types long before they were even seperated by the scientists.

i decided long ago to only specialise in Blond Macs as these were my favourites, and I got rid of all the others. Just too much to look after.

Gosford has some great Diamonds and everyone knows, but come here and try to find them in the wild. Many have tried and failed. The exact roads the pygmies are found on was not given, just the town. Going there without local knowledge or knowing the time of year they are found likewise could be a waste of time. And what about the expence and time to travel to far North Queenland to catch these snakes. It would be far cheaper just to buy captive bred, parasite and stress free specimens from the breeders.

You can use the argument that they will now be poached from the wild in large numbers, but this could apply to any python species. The locations are known, yet breeders still seem to sell their animals. I literally know hundreds of herpers that know the true location of these pygmy pythons. Even many people on this thread knew where they are from, and still not many are in collections. Sort of mutes your arguements, doesn't it.


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## Boney (Jul 29, 2009)

im not saying anything to you mate .you got nothing to add to this thread that is constructive . 

what ive said from the start ..they where sold to me as mossman and will stay that way . crap i know they whent found in the main street waiting for a bus . my friend knows the excact spot . and mossman he felt is close enough . he said to leave it as that . to avoid certain outcomes . ect like hobbo said . my only problem here is people like bob feel they need to put themselves out there to look better then the average person . telling them they are wrong . which has not been proven here and i can assure you all my line is found within a reasonable distance from mossman . in our opinion ... 
just as close to mossman as mount carbine so i guess he has picked the name over mount carbine . sorry he didnt run the name past the internet experts first .

and thanks AD for your pic ... not a good example but as you said and my adults have not washed out but they do change colour. 

THE END.. NOTHING MORE TO ADD CLOSE THE THREAD NOW . NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE PAGE 2


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## scorps (Jul 29, 2009)

Just for the record (coming from someone who is in mossyman at least once a fortnight) North queensland is full of a wide range of habitats, just drive the kuranda range if you dont belive me, one minute your in the city, then up the range straight into rainforest, (the range is 20km long) as soon as you hit the top of the range drive another 10km and your in bush, a 30km drive in FNQ is a big distance.


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## herpkeeper (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't think that Bob or anyone else is trying to big note themselves by telling the true locality of these animals. If you are selling something as a locale specific, than it should come from that area.
you are the one misleading people by saying that these animals come from Mossman when they don't . & seeing how antaresia are your thing, then you should know you do not find Stimmies east of the divide, certainly not in the rain forest......


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## shamous1 (Jul 29, 2009)

nuthn2do said:


> but she's bad tempered and head that's ugly as sin.



HAHA.....lucky I read on. I thought you were talking about my sister.:lol:

Nice animals. Has anyone got pics of them when they are older. Would be good to see the pattern.


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## slacker (Jul 29, 2009)

herpkeeper said:


> If you are selling something as a locale specific, than it should come from that area.



+1. Looks like I'll be calling the ones I have from this line "QLD Pygmy stimsoni" since Andy now seems to be implying that they're neither from Mossman nor from Mt Carbine.



shamous1 said:


> Nice animals. Has anyone got pics of them when they are older. Would be good to see the pattern.



Look on the first page of the thread. No-two posted a juvenile up the top, further down ANTARESIA1 has posted a photo of a couple of adults.


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## rodney (Jul 29, 2009)

Andy has implied no such thing. he has said the same from the start. He is sticking to what he has been told until someone proves other wise, which I dont think has happened. All very well for someone to say they have done their homework but when I went to school you had to show your homework not just say you have done it.


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## slacker (Jul 29, 2009)

rodney said:


> Andy has implied no such thing. he has said the same from the start. He is sticking to what he has been told until someone proves other wise, which I dont think has happened.



Sorry mate, but I think he did. Here you go, I've even quoted his previous post and edited out the irrelevant parts.



ANTARESIA1 said:


> .......
> my friend knows the excact spot . and mossman he felt is close enough .
> .......
> i can assure you all my line is found within a reasonable distance from mossman . in our opinion ... just as close to mossman as mount carbine so i guess he has picked the name over mount carbine .



Seems to me he's saying that Mossman is as close to their true locality is Mt Carbine is. Given that they [Mossman & Mt Carbine] are about 25km from each other [as the crow flies] my fantasmical powers of deduction suggest to me that they are of neither Mossman, nor Mt Carbine locality. Am I wrong?


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## rodney (Jul 29, 2009)

You would make a good political reporter when you put it in context he was trying to make a point. The two places are very close together. Broome stimos are found a little further than 30km from Broome, Proserpine's are found further than 30km from town. Gosford gold and the list goes on. Locale specific works well doesn't it.


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## Bushfire (Jul 29, 2009)

I think its very important that the true locality of these snakes is known, and thank bob and others for their input into their true locality. How close does it have to be from a locality to warrent the name? I think peoples answer to this change depending of the species, how unusual this particular form is, and proxity to other locations. Given that this form is particularly unusual and proxity to a few towns keeping its location true is very important both to general keepers and for scientist. This is the danger with all locale specific animals now, as a breeder I could make up a locality name in the pretext of trying to protect unusual forms from poaching or protecting my bottom line. A similar case was played out with the Mary River Turtle and its true location but instead of protecting it in the wild, it was a case of protecting profits. Look at how long it took to nail down its true location and worse still imagine if John had of kept it his little secert.

As a buyer I normally only take its locality name with a grain of salt, but I think its important to at least investigate the possiblity the locale data is wrong or to the point of being very misleading. Especially when very experienced field herpers say that location is misleading and given very vaild points to why Mossman isnt its true locality.

So do you stick with the sellers view or change it? Thats the difficult question there. There is good and bad points for both sides of this question. I would suggest that sometimes it isnt the best choice in blindly following the sellers information. Although this point is to the extreme I remember a thread awhile ago where a pet shop in vic was seller V.storri as ackies and stated thats what they were sold to as so that what they are selling them as.


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## slacker (Jul 29, 2009)

rodney said:


> Broome stimos are found a little further than 30km from Broome, Proserpine's are found further than 30km from town. Gosford gold and the list goes on. Locale specific works well doesn't it.



Well then maybe they should not be called "Broome stimos" etc.

Let's look at that line of Windorah locality stimsoni that are going around at the moment. Some people call them South-west Queensland stimsoni. Other people call them Windorahs. Both are (to my knowledge) accurate, just one is more specific than the other. That's fine.

What's _not_ fine in my opinion is tacking on some arbitrary locality name. Sure, that particularly line may well be locality specific. But what would happen if someone had a _true_ Mossman (okay bad example, but let's ignore that fact) locality stimsoni that they then paired up with one of these _close-enough-to-Mossman_ locality animals? Suddenly your offspring are not locality specific.

Now we can say that animal X is of Brisbane locality, or we can say they're Queensland locality, neither is wrong, they're both technically correct. But we can't call a Gladstone locality animal a Brisbane locality animal and not expect to make people unhappy.

End of the day, they didn't have to claim the _apparently incorrect _Mossman locality when they could simply have called them "North East Queensland" locality. Not as specific, but at least it's not a lie.


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## rodney (Jul 29, 2009)

ok please explain, using your example. If we have a stimo from Mossman and on from Mt Carbine there 30km apart. If both animals are identical and their offspring are identical to both locales. Your saying there not locale specific.


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## slacker (Jul 29, 2009)

rodney said:


> ok please explain, using your example. If we have a stimo from Mossman and on from Mt Carbine there 30km apart. If both animals are identical and their offspring are identical to both locales. Your saying there not locale specific.



If you breed a Mossman locality animal with a Mt Carbine locality animal, how could the offspring be locality specific? They're of two different localities. It makes no difference if they look like a duck and walk like a duck, in this example, they're not ducks.


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## orsm (Jul 29, 2009)

Pity that greed tends to be the driving force for some sellers. Sarcasm and direct attacks are really not necessary for effective argument.


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## ad (Jul 29, 2009)

rodney said:


> ok please explain, using your example. If we have a stimo from Mossman and on from Mt Carbine there 30km apart. If both animals are identical and their offspring are identical to both locales. Your saying there not locale specific.



hehe Rodney, they dont exist at Mossman mate, have you missed it entirely???????????

In broome the habitat doesnt change, same with Windorah etc,
You are talking a moon scape compared to dense rainforest, Mt Carbine v Mossman 
Wow get on a plane mate, understand the animals you are talking about, at the moment you dont have a clue, but stand there and argue about it


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## nathancl (Jul 29, 2009)

the problem is if you breed a antaresia from mossman with one of those pygmies you would be breeding a fairly large size blonde mac type antaresia with a small little stimsoni type antaresia if you go and find animals from both localities you would find they are very different from one another. 

this thread has got to the point where its making me laugh


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## rodney (Jul 29, 2009)

No I don't think I have missed it, I have been there I know how dramatically the country changes on top of the escarpment. That's not the argument you say it is impossible for a python that is different in most ways to other stimsons to live in different habitat . I haven't said they are difinetly from Mossman I am saying that know one has proved their not. I don't care how much of an expert you think you are because you say they aren't means nothing to me. Your whole argument seems to be no other stimson lives in this habitat so it doesn't happen, I was there in 1972 it's probably changed a bit but I remember how wild some of that country was you could have hid a herd of elephants in some of those gorges let alone a little snake. All i am saying is anything is possible even the fact that you maybe wrong. And Yes I accept that I maybe wrong too.


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## scam7278 (Jul 29, 2009)

just one question,as i know bugger all about stimmies....the fact that these pygmy stimms are so diffrent to others in size,is it possible tha they might come from a diffrent climate to normal stimms?


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## bigguy (Jul 30, 2009)

Hobo, no they live in normal stimson habitat, and not surrounded by monster spotted pythons on the coast. 

I can't understand what you are all argueing about. The collector of these animals has confirmed where they were caught, AND IT WAS NOT MOSSMAN for the last time for all those people who can not read. Did I prove it . YES I DID. Andy has only to ring me for the collectors details which I will gladly give him. And than Andy can confirm my facts were correct and let you all know once and for all. But so far no phone call which leads me to believe he would rather sell great animals with misleading imfo. His choice .

This is the last post I will make on this subject. People who have probably never done any field research are so quick to give opinions.


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