# Calling all vegetarians/vegans



## LadyJ (Aug 28, 2010)

I've made the decision to become vegetarian at the end of the year. I know that people _should_ eat meat and we're at the top of the food-chain for a reason... but that's not why I'm doing this. The reason I've taken my vow is due to the cruelty, suffering and in-humane nature of commercial and mass-slaughter methods. The only meat I'll eat will be what I, or someone I know has humanely gathered (I enjoy hunting... still get my venison!).

So, are there any hints, recipes or heads-up from vegetarians? I've decided to go through with this at the end of the year to allow myself time to speak with doctors and gather heaps of tasty recipes... any help would be appreciated. 

*EDIT:* Forgot to mention - the following year I will hopefully take up a fully vegan lifestyle.


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## lynfrog (Aug 28, 2010)

if youre serious about this why would you set a date?
the best thing to do is get recipes/ideas and try them as you go. what someone else likes you may not.
we do eat meat but live with a vegetarian and eat a lot of vego food- its no big deal, tofu stirfry, mexican beans in nachos or lentil or chickpea curry.
sure gather as much info as you like....most doctors know little or nothing about diet, or vegetarianism, and i should know as i am one!


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## wokka (Aug 28, 2010)

If you can eat venison that is wild shot,then why not everything else that is killed the same way?Just ask a farmer to line you up with a cow, a sheep, a roo. or a chook.


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## Sock Puppet (Aug 28, 2010)

Vegetarians eat venison?? 
When you convert to vegan, will you slip in a couple of sneaky Aus Day prawns & a snag? 
I would  Can't resist a fresh prawn.


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## slim6y (Aug 28, 2010)

You'll need to avoid both beer and wine - both use animal products...

not to mention lollies with gelatine, sour cream, dairy products etc etc... 

You can't have double standards - I guess you could milk your own cow...

Chickens... even free range eggs are full of the worst treated chickens on earth (though much better than battery hens)....

How far are you going to take it?


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## Megzz (Aug 28, 2010)

I admire your reasons for refusing to eat certain meat. However, this does not make you vegetarian if you are still eating what you hunt. I only mention this because I've found some real vegetarians and vegans can be offended if you claim to be one when you're not, as it can be difficult to maintain that sort of diet for real. Good luck with it though.


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## Laghairt (Aug 28, 2010)

A fully vegan lifestyle is hard. My wife and I have tried it and you will have to do a lot of research to make sure you are getting enough nutrition. My wife's an olympic athlete so with the amount of training she does we had to be extra careful; however she busts the myth that you need to eat meat to compete at the highest level in sport, Carl Lewis was also a vegan as was Robert Dicostello (spelling) and there are a few NBA players and UFC fighters who are too.

Being Vegan makes it difficult to socialise at restaurants, bars etc but having said that it is extremely healthy and you will feel better for it. Once you get used to it you will never go back to your old ways.

We currently eat fish a couple of times a week and have a very limited dairy intake but still eat vego pizza etc to avoid being too difficult when going out with friends.

I say go for it, don't let other people tell what to do remember you make your own rules so if you are ok with eating Venison you catch yourself then don't let anyone criticize you. The hardest part will be the first month when you won't know what to buy at the supermarket as you're so used to basing your meals around meat & dairy products but do your research and there are plenty of great alternatives. I know we will never go back to eating red meat or chicken as it is unnecessary.

The main reason we decided to try it was that my wife's father has cancer and the links between cancer and animal protein are scary, I had no idea until I started looking into it and then realized how much meat we were eating. Aside from the moral/ethical considerations being vegetarian is better for your health and better for the environment.


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## slim6y (Aug 28, 2010)

Megzz - maybe she'll just call it a humanitarian diet - that would be fair...

But it still will need to exclude so many things that she wouldn't first think of or it will be a real double standard and then it will just be a 'diet' without any of the prefixes associated...

From what I gather it's for animal welfare... So it cuts out almost all animal products (farmed). Unfortunately it does tend to involve so many food types and sources...

It wasn't until my mate (a vegan) eluded me to the fact beer and wine is strained through animal bone!!!


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## Scleropages (Aug 28, 2010)

I haven't eaten meat for years now. If is wasen't for beer I would be vegan , haha

I Don't think you should go to a total vegetarian or vegan diet if you are ok with meat killed humanely. Just do what feels right for you.

I am not sure why you say people "should" eat meat. I don't think you are going to be ok with being a vegetarian with that way of thinking.

I just don't eat meat because I don't want to , you couldent pay me enough to eat ANY meat.


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## Laghairt (Aug 28, 2010)

Humans don't need to eat meat, I'm 201 cm tall and 110kg with quite a muscular build and I went 2 years without eating any meat with no ill effects whatsoever. I train a lot more than most people too and the change in diet didn't affect my endurance or strength. These days i eat a very small piece of fish once or twice a week but could easily do without it.


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## Funkstaa (Aug 28, 2010)

I think as Anouc said the first month is the hardest when you're doing your shopping and unsure on what products to buy...My hubby sais the word vegetarian is swearing lol but for my daughters and myself some of the recipe's we enjoy are...
Felafel's - these are great as you can use them in soo many things or even on they're own with sweet chilli sauce to dip is yum...
Tofu marinated and used in sushi is a fave with my girls, 
Lasange but that depends if you're ok with cheese I suppose,
Gnochi with crushed tomato (sort of like spag bol)... 
A winner when ever we go to bbq's is to take a dish fill half the base with refried beans(add a little water and heat up in a saucepan first), the other half with salsa, and up to you but cheese is really nice melted ontop with some corn chips (or toasted pita bread cut into chip like pieces) - I'm yet to have meet anyone who hasn't liked it - and it can be filling too so if your stuck at a bbq with not many choices it can keep you tied over until you get home lol...
Tofu fried lacksa, or lentil curries are great too - inser mouthwatering here lol...There's alot of great recipe's I use taste.com.au when ever I'm stuck for something new ... It can be hard at times when you're out but after a while you'll learn where caters well for us (indian places are fail safe) Good luck!


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## DanTheMan (Aug 28, 2010)

Whether you eat the meat or not, it still going to be killed.


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## Laghairt (Aug 28, 2010)

True but that's a very narrow way of looking at things. Less people eating meat means there will be less demand for meat and therefore less meat production. So in the long run, more vegetarians means that fewer animals will be killed.


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## Tikanderoga (Aug 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> True but that's a very narrow way of looking at things. Less people eating meat means there will be less demand for meat and therefore less meat production. So in the long run, more vegetarians means that fewer animals will be killed.


I partially agree - the food industry will continue to produce meat, no matter the amount consumed. Some people don't eat meat (or not that much), because they can't afford it. So with the overproduction will cause a drop in price (simple economics) making people who couldn't afford meat before (or not that much), eating more meat - and the circle closes. What you don't eat, somebody else will.
And that's the best case scenario. 
Worst case scenario is demonstrated by some (fast) food outlets: this burger is older than x minutes -> goes in the bin. So technically, in the worst case scenario, your meat non-consumption could lead to more food being wasted because of not being eaten.

Nevertheless, I admire your motivation, LadyJ and Anouc, for as I couldn't do it - I need meat on a daily basis.


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## ubermensch (Aug 28, 2010)

Meat is gross :/
Excluding Bacon.
Anyway - why give it a name?
I don't eat meat (excluding bacon) and I only say I'm Vegetarian when I'm eating out and need a different menu.
You obviously just don't support the horrendous butchering of our animals and only want to eat the ones humanely killed - call it that!
"I only eat meat that has died quickly and in little to no pain"


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## leighroy6 (Aug 28, 2010)

thought i would share some humour wit this thread, i admire your decision ladyj


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## Laghairt (Aug 28, 2010)

Yes your right it's not quite as simple as I made it out to be but if enough people stopped eating meat demand and supply would both decrease. One person stopping would have virtually no effect.



Tikanderoga said:


> I partially agree - the food industry will continue to produce meat, no matter the amount consumed. Some people don't eat meat (or not that much), because they can't afford it. So with the overproduction will cause a drop in price (simple economics) making people who couldn't afford meat before (or not that much), eating more meat - and the circle closes. What you don't eat, somebody else will.
> And that's the best case scenario.
> Worst case scenario is demonstrated by some (fast) food outlets: this burger is older than x minutes -> goes in the bin. So technically, in the worst case scenario, your meat non-consumption could lead to more food being wasted because of not being eaten.
> 
> Nevertheless, I admire your motivation, LadyJ and Anouc, for as I couldn't do it - I need meat on a daily basis.


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## Laghairt (Aug 28, 2010)

I can totally relate, people ark right up when you use the term, "vegan" or vegetarian" so I don't describe myself as either, I'm just a healthy eater.

I think it goes back to human nature where if most people don't understand something you're doing, they assume you're crazy.



ubermensch said:


> Meat is gross :/
> Excluding Bacon.
> Anyway - why give it a name?
> I don't eat meat (excluding bacon) and I only say I'm Vegetarian when I'm eating out and need a different menu.
> ...


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## ubermensch (Aug 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> I can totally relate, people ark right up when you use the term, "vegan" or vegetarian" so I don't describe myself as either, I'm just a healthy eater.
> 
> I think it goes back to human nature where if most people don't understand something you're doing, they assume you're crazy.



I just hate the taste! Haha. If I can't taste it, feed it to me I don't care.
Yes...like reptile keeping >.> We are always assumed to be crazy


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## Laghairt (Aug 28, 2010)

Exactly



ubermensch said:


> Yes...like reptile keeping >.> We are always assumed to be crazy


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## ubermensch (Aug 28, 2010)

I don't exactly help the cause ;D
I am certifiably a bit bonkers.


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## Wally (Aug 28, 2010)

I guess as humans in this day and age we are lucky to have a choice on what we want to eat. Some may argue this isn't lucky though...


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 28, 2010)

I get really cranky at veggos who decide who can and who can't call themselves the same thing. 

Jacinta - being a vegetarian is one of the best decisions you can make from an environmental point of view! You contribute more by being vegetarian than if you stopped driving a car! Cool, huh? BUT - have a chat to a nutritionist (not necessarily your doctor), because the balance of foods you have to changes considerably to get the right amounts of nutrients from different things. Tofu is really tasty, despite its reputation, and beans and mushies and spinach, too! 

That stuff about us being at the top of te food chain is just silly - even dogs and cats can survive on veggo and vegan diets. Trust me, none of the pets in vietnam get any meat, only rice and scraps (which is never meat because it's too expensive to waste). The longest living dog known in the world live to be 27 or so years old, and lived on a completely vegan diet from when he was weaned  But, do watch your iron levels. You may need to take some basic supplements. 

Even if you have to eat the occasional piece of meat, don't let anyone tell you you're not legit in your decision. You are still contributing GREATLY to the many environmental and animal cruelty reasons to not eat meat. But free range eggs and organic meat. 

Going off meat (mostly) and wheat and dairy has been the best thing for my health I have ever done. 

@anouc - I'm quite in awe of you and particularly your athlete wife. Inspiration abounds


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 28, 2010)

PS. There's heaps of great veggo recipes over here that I'm planning on writing down before I leave - I'll make sure to share!


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## cris (Aug 28, 2010)

Wow, you will only eat meat if you get to enjoy killing it, certainly a new way of looking at being a vegan. In reality vegans cant eat food because all food requires animal products and/or proccesses.

I fully support anyone boycotting particular industustries due to cruelty or environmental reasons, but attempting to be fully vegan is a mental disorder IMO, but as mentioned we keep snakes so are crazy even if we do eat like normal humans :lol: 

What i dont understand is how someone who thinks its wrong to kill animals for food can keep an Australian reptile, they all require animals to be killed for no other reason than the keepers interest. Even though its impossible to be a vegan, keeping reptiles makes it far more hypocritical.


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 28, 2010)

cris said:


> What i dont understand is how someone who thinks its wrong to kill animals for food can keep an Australian reptile, they all require animals to be killed for no other reason than the keepers interest. Even though its impossible to be a vegan, keeping reptiles makes it far more hypocritical.



I agree  It's very hard to be 100% emphatic about anything these days!!


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## Laghairt (Aug 28, 2010)

LOL, you make some very good points there cris, I suppose we're all guilty of hypocrisy even if we like to believe otherwise.



cris said:


> Wow, you will only eat meat if you get to enjoy killing it, certainly a new way of looking at being a vegan. In reality vegans cant eat food because all food requires animal products and/or proccesses.
> 
> I fully support anyone boycotting particular industustries due to cruelty or environmental reasons, but attempting to be fully vegan is a mental disorder IMO, but as mentioned we keep snakes so are crazy even if we do eat like normal humans :lol:
> 
> What i dont understand is how someone who thinks its wrong to kill animals for food can keep an Australian reptile, they all require animals to be killed for no other reason than the keepers interest. Even though its impossible to be a vegan, keeping reptiles makes it far more hypocritical.


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## cris (Aug 28, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> I get really cranky at veggos who decide who can and who can't call themselves the same thing.


 
I know what you mean im a vegitarian but i also eat seafood (and animals that evolved from it). Humans are omnivours even if they eat a vegitarian diet, its just that they refuse to eat part of their natural diet for moral or delusional reasons.

Im 100% emphatic about everything, never hypocritical or wrong


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## vrhq08 (Aug 28, 2010)

congradz for making the choice i warn you it will be hard. i havent eaten meat for a good 10 years now and if you do it right you shouldnt come into mnay health issues i have had low iron counts in the past but that was due to eating slack. if you google vegetarian food you can get lots of yummy recepies to try. if you want to be full on vegetarian theirs some things you must say good bye to no more lollies some cheeses as they contain rennet and some beers their are some vegetarian ones. You will be a pain in the **** to friends and family due to your diet and you will cop **** but it will all be worth it. You should go to some awesome vegrtarian resturants to see how good the food can be.. loft yummy burgers and enlightended cuizene is 100% vegetarian chinesefood resturant.


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## ravan (Aug 28, 2010)

you can essentially make any meat dish into a vegetarian one, there are many different alternatives to use. 

taste.com.au has some really good vege recipes!


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 28, 2010)

cris said:


> Im 100% emphatic about everything, never hypocritical or wrong



Love it


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## Tikanderoga (Aug 28, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Tofu is really tasty, despite its reputation


One really gotta like tofu - Tofu is one of the main reasons, i couldn't be a vegetarian (or vegan for that is) I simply don't like it in any way: don't like taste, don't like the texture - I just don't. Same with pumpkin.



> You may need to take some basic supplements.


Isn't that's also a bit of a hypocriticism - replace meat (which is natural) with chemicals?
The way I see vegetarians is in a healthy way - lots of veggies & fruit, eggs & dairy products - Maybe it's just me who got a wrong aspect of vegetarians.


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 28, 2010)

Tika...... - Maybe you've never had a good tofu recipe? Tofu is a staple in Vietnam, and I didn't like it much either until I tried I it a few different ways over here that I haven't tried before.

Supplements - replacing meat with chemicals?? That's hardly what a supplement is. The kinds of lifestyles we live today often mean we don't get what is considered a healthy dose of different vitamins and nutrients. And then there's people's different levels of these things naturally. Even when I was eating meat regularly, I still had to take an iron supplement because my levels are naturally low. For the iron supplement to have its proper effect I also have to take magnesium and calcium so that the iron is absorbed properly. Magnesium also helps the adrenaline system function properly and your muscles to work and regenerate themselves better. Zinc, too, is another thing that most people are too low on, regardless of their diet. 

My point was that if you're going to cut out major food groups that your currently used to, whether that's wheat, meat, dairy etc. you need to give your body time, and yes, sometimes a helping hand, for it to adjust and function at it's normal levels.


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## Tikanderoga (Aug 28, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Tika...... - Maybe you've never had a good tofu recipe?


My last memory of a tofu recipe was some sort of tofu/pumpkin-something.... the 2 most "no-way-I'm-gonna-eat-that"-items on my list.
I had my fair share of "here, try this yummy tofu" and I ate it - yet I still don't like it.

But as you pointed out, there are other products that can substitute meat (other than tofu).
One big question is though, and this is now for all the vegetarians participating in this conversation: Do you eat fish?

I know a few vegetarians, they won't eat meat, but some do enjoy a nice fish.


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 28, 2010)

I don't eat unsustainably harvested fish, either


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## Megzz (Aug 28, 2010)

Well done to you lot.

Sad to say I cant cook to save myself so... grilled meat is kinda the number 1 choice for me


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## Scleropages (Aug 28, 2010)

cris said:


> What i dont understand is how someone who thinks its wrong to kill animals for food can keep an Australian reptile, they all require animals to be killed for no other reason than the keepers interest. Even though its impossible to be a vegan, keeping reptiles makes it far more hypocritical.


 
haha Yes this is why I tell people I don't eat meat. Beacuse I kill so many animals a week to feed my snakes. A true vegan woulden't dream of keeping snakes.


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## Scleropages (Aug 28, 2010)

oh and you can't be vegetarian and eat fish. fish is meat.You might as well eat cows if you eat fish.


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## slim6y (Aug 28, 2010)

Scleropages said:


> oh and you can't be vegetarian and eat fish. fish is meat.You might as well eat cows if you eat fish.


 
Only if they're swimming in the ocean...

As far as cruelty goes fish are killed by drowning them in air - it is not quick... in fact it's painfully slow!

Secondly - farming (regardless of the organic side) is still farming for profit... Don't let that label and the extra $14 per kg make you believe it's 'better' - in fact... As far as organic pesticides go - organic ones are the worst!

Bio-dynamic is getting close... Very good milk products up here from Mungali Creek - bio-dynamic isn't bad... But it's still intensive (although less) farming.


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## Scleropages (Aug 28, 2010)

hehe vegetarians that eat fish , thats like stalkers who don't use facebook. lol


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## LullabyLizard (Aug 29, 2010)

It annoys me when 'vegetarians' say - "Oh, I'm a vegetarian, but I eat fish"...

Fish is meat. Fish are being plucked out of the ocean, and some scientists say that we wont have any fish left in 100 years, if we keep fishing like we do. They are cruely *sp killed, they are suffocated. But, cows, pigs and sheep are not on the brink of extinction. Yes, they are killed horridly, but they arn't going to go anywhere.


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## Tikanderoga (Aug 29, 2010)

LullabyLizard said:


> Yes, they are killed horridly


Not really.. from I remember they just get "shot" in the head with a bolt - quick and as painless as possible.

The mice we buy for our snakes are suffocated with CO2... so not much more cruel than a fish getting dragged out of water and left to die on the air - yet, we do keep snakes and other reptiles and we do buy the mice for them at the pet store.
So as someone already pointed out correctly - it is kind of a hypocriticsm.


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## slim6y (Aug 29, 2010)

Chemical additives (supplements) into your diet... BAD BAD BAD....

Lifestyle choice requiring these supplements.... BAD BAD BAD....

Humans used to live on a feast or famine diet dependant on season - we never lived for that long back then, but it worked on the whole.

There is absolutely NO REASON on this earth now that you could not have a balanced diet (considering hunting means you go to the supermarket and gathering means you put in the shopping trolley).

Why can't you eat fresh greens and meat (if you choose) from the supermarket? 

Why should you put your liver through high doses (unnecessarily) of vitamin C, B and especially the WORST A... If you take vitamin A supplements (other than for acne) you're a bigger fool than I can imagine. Vitamin A has been linked to so many health issues and on top of that (like all foods though I guess) the risk of cancers is so unbelievably high!

Vitamin D - you should NOT need that in Australia if you see the sun more than twice per week - we don't live in the Arctic Circle - we don't need a supplement with Vitamin D in it (unless you're calcium deficient and a ginge...).

Then what about fish oil tabs... Well.. hmmm don't get me started - yes, Omega 3 is GREAT for you... but in a condensed tablet equivalent of eating four snappers??? WHAT THE??? It's NOT healthy for us to get large doses of vitamins and minerals in any form.... 

Which is why I choose to be the happy little heterotroph that I am and go all out to eat a balanced healthy and varied diet to include meats, fish, veges and fruit with some unhealthy stuff to add to it because that's what balance is all about...

If by choice, I felt animals were being cruelly dealt with I would choose bio-dynamic harvesting only... And still eat red meat, fish and poultry... I do buy free range... I do not buy chemical pesticides (including NO natural ones either - they're a bigger jip), I do look for good quality meats - but I am never sure of how they're farmed. But for the time they're alive, they were probably pretty happy.


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## slim6y (Aug 29, 2010)

Tikanderoga said:


> Not really.. from I remember they just get "shot" in the head with a bolt - quick and as painless as possible.
> 
> The mice we buy for our snakes are suffocated with CO2... so not much more cruel than a fish getting dragged out of water and left to die on the air - yet, we do keep snakes and other reptiles and we do buy the mice for them at the pet store.
> So as someone already pointed out correctly - it is kind of a hypocriticsm.



Actually, I'd have to disagree there about the fish comment...

CO2 in high doses is toxic and you still breath apparently normally up until the point where you lose consciousness. It's also much much much much quicker.

Fish on the other hand require oxygen (like humans) to be passed over their gills in the water (usually in the form of dissolved O2). When out of the water they're unable to breath because no water is passing over the gills - effectively it's like a plastic bag going over your head, but some nasty person (obviously not the word I was really choosing) stabs two or three tiny fork holes in the plastic bag so you get just enough air to remain conscious and aware, but not enough to keep your survival going for more than a few hours of terror.

Yes, I DO EAT FISH... and not hypocritical - I don't agree with it... but part of my lifestyle involves the requirement of me working and unable to spend my day fishing so I can quickly and painlessly dispatch the fish I catch... So I just face the facts - fish will die by slow suffocation or be kept in holding tanks to die when on shore....

Have you watched No Country For Old Men? The one with the cattle bolt... Freakyness (I think it was a play on the whole vegetarian thing - black comedy at its best I think). But I do beleive cows do feel the 'terror' of their former mates getting iced!


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## LullabyLizard (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm not a vegetarian. I love meat! I was just elaborating on the hypocrite part of it all


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## ubermensch (Aug 29, 2010)

Alot of abbotoirs actually slice the tendons on the feet of cattle so they can't "run" BEFORE they get shot in the head with metal bolts. Cause otherwise, how hard would it be to run around after a paddock of sheep or cows with a fancy gun in hand?
It's absolutely terrible and inhumane, not as quick as people would like to think.


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## slim6y (Aug 29, 2010)

I think they use a stun gun - a few hundred volts of electricity as well - but in some cases they just stun, then slice their neck... 

Cheetahs on the other hand just bite at their neck while they're still alive... it works and is incredibly cruel too...

I'm very anti cheetahs - the quicker they're extinct the better I say!


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## ubermensch (Aug 29, 2010)

It's all a part of the food chain.
The cheetas can't help having good teeth and nice legs and the wildebeasts can't help being wildebeasts.
I hope I come back as the cheetah.


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## redbellybite (Aug 29, 2010)

PLANTS scientifically have shown distress ,ACACIA and GIANT SECOYA communicate and are linked by their roots and share information ,so when 1 plant is being ripped up or out ,it initiates tannin to sour the leaves ..in hoping it will be left alone 
PLANTS CAN SCREAM we just cant hear them now  

NOW answer me this veg heads ..how many of you own LEATHER PRODUCTS? 

If you answer NO you dont own any ...HOW MANY PLASTIC BY PRODUCTS are in your homes? better for the enviroment argument is BS ..better for you to sleep at night well probably


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## Laghairt (Aug 29, 2010)

I think someone should close this thread, it's getting silly now. These kind of discussions will always attract the ignorant and intolerant who have nothing to offer but misguided criticism.


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## redbellybite (Aug 29, 2010)

anouc said:


> I think someone should close this thread, it's getting silly now. These kind of discussions will always attract the ignorant and intolerant who have nothing to offer but misguided criticism.


I am always amazed at this ..If your whole point on not eating meat is because your not keen on the taste ..FAIR ENOUGH each to their own ...BUT when you claim its because you HATE animal cruelty and are doing the enviroment a favour blah blah ...and when asked do you own leather goods or use plastic by products ...you claim we are being ignorant and giving misguided criticism ...Have you heard of the saying 'cant have your cake and eat it too?' same thing here YES you dont have to like meat ,thats your choice ...but unless you live in a cave with no power and creature comforts ..dont throw the animal or enviroment slogans in our meat eating faces now ...


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## Laghairt (Aug 29, 2010)

Original post restated.


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## Wally (Aug 29, 2010)

ubermensch said:


> Alot of abbotoirs actually slice the tendons on the feet of cattle so they can't "run" BEFORE they get shot in the head with metal bolts. Cause otherwise, how hard would it be to run around after a paddock of sheep or cows with a fancy gun in hand?
> It's absolutely terrible and inhumane, not as quick as people would like to think.



This statement is not accurate at all. Cattle are brought onto the kill floor through a single file run ( like you see being used to load them onto trucks ). The cattle cannot run anywhere and are pinned at the top of the chute to be killed. Cattle and all livestock for that matter in a commercial sense are not slaughtered in a paddock. I know this story is gruesome but I want to correct what has been said.


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## Crystal..Discus (Aug 29, 2010)

After reading some of the comments in this thread, I'd like to clear up a few things. 

In relation to the link between animal protein and cancer; the scientists in charge of this "finding" have been discredited time and time again, to the point where discrediting it is child's play. The extractions and summary were based solely on one control group, and that same control group ate meat, smoked and drank. However, other control groups, such as Mormons (among other religious groups), who also ate red meat but were forbidden from smoking and drinking showed just as little incidence as vegans. Smoking/Drinking/being fat and unhealthy causes cancer, not red meat  

Even if it is for ethical, financial, religious, or environmental, it's a personal choice, and should be treated as such (much like one's choice to follow religion). 

That out of the way, look into trying some polenta  I love it, but I'm strange like that.


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## camspeed (Aug 29, 2010)

Can't understand how people don't eat meat. Nothing better than a nice juicy medium rare eye fillet mmm


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## babba007 (Aug 29, 2010)

Wally76 said:


> This statement is not accurate at all. Cattle are brought onto the kill floor through a single file run ( like you see being used to load them onto trucks ). The cattle cannot run anywhere and are pinned at the top of the chute to be killed. Cattle and all livestock for that matter in a commercial sense are not slaughtered in a paddock. I know this story is gruesome but I want to correct what has been said.



Totally agree


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## Laghairt (Aug 29, 2010)

Of course there have been some poorly designed studies that are effectively worthless but there have been long term studies in the lab with animal models that have proven the link beyond doubt. Red meat in moderation is harmless and humans are definitely able to handle it as part of a healthy diet but the link is there. 



Crystal..Discus said:


> In relation to the link between animal protein and cancer; the scientists in charge of this "finding" have been discredited time and time again, to the point where discrediting it is child's play.


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 29, 2010)

As much as I support a veggo lifestyle as much as possible, when I woke up with a raging hangover this morning, I really enjoyed a plate of eggs and bacon 

I think it's unfair to say that to be "vegetarian" you have to have absolutely no meat or fish or animal by-products whatsoever. Depending on your reasons for doing it of course. But, for me, the occasional steak is good for me, and I feel good for eating it. The fact that I'm not eating a great big hunk of commercially processed meat every day is still helping the cause as far as I see it.

Similarly, meat in Vietnam is not processed in the commercial numbers or by the same practices as at home, so I have felt more comfortable eating the meat over here than I do at home. I still consider myself to be leading a healthy, "responsible" lifestyle. 

There are hypocrisies all over the place. I keep snakes. I ride a motorbike when I have to. I use a computer and buy first hand clothes. You can't fight absolutely every evil, but I'm doing my best


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## Wally (Aug 29, 2010)

Yes, living naked in a cave just isn't an option unfortunately.


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## Megzz (Aug 29, 2010)

Regardless of whether or not the OP will be a 'true' vegetarian and the arguements for and against etc we are kind of missing the point of the original question...

She was asking for tips on being vegetarian, maybe recipes etc?


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 29, 2010)

Megzz, I get your point and haven't meant to hijack, and for some reason a post I wrote to LadyJ didn't post itself yesterday (Jacinta - there's HEAPS of really yummy vegetarian Vietnamese food that I'll start writing down the recipes for and be sure to share!! )

But, I disagree that we're off topic. In a social sense, being vegetarian can be really tough - you get a lot of questions as to why you made the decision, and a lot of criticism. Talking about that side of it openly BEFORE she tells her family and mates is just preparing her for some of the flack and hassle that she is bound to cop  But, LadyJ, if you disagree, I'm happy to pull my head in


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## slim6y (Aug 29, 2010)

Megzz said:


> Regardless of whether or not the OP will be a 'true' vegetarian and the arguements for and against etc we are kind of missing the point of the original question...
> 
> *She was asking for tips on being vegetarian*, maybe recipes etc?



Lay off the meat....


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## Megzz (Aug 29, 2010)

Fair enough Kristy.

:lol: slim6y...


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## Snakeluvver2 (Aug 29, 2010)

I admire most vegetarians and vegans. 
Just looking at the effort they go to, to eat is amazing (my friends has her own little vege farm)
Although I dont agree with the ideas, i think its awesome!


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## Laghairt (Aug 29, 2010)

Slim that just killed me. Good one.



slim6y said:


> Lay off the meat....


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## LadyJ (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm sorry to vanish - but I've been away for a few days!

Now then, reading through this has been a mixed experience, and I can totally understand where most people are coming from, regardless of standing point. Now, to answer a few questions... I would love more than anything to wake up tomorrow morning and sing to the world, "today I am vegetarian!", but sadly... that's not possible. The reason I'm not just 'becoming a vegetarian straight away if I believe in the cause so much' is mainly, for health. As embarrassing as it I'm somewhat underweight at the moment... I'm worried that if I were to suddenly cease to eat meat and dairy I'd lose even a little weight in a short time and cause worry to a lot of people that are already concerned. I know some peoplee have said they've got vegetarian friends who are 'large', but I'm starting off with the body of a stick so I know for a fact I'm certainly not going to put on weight, I'd much rather speak to a nutritionist and then risk losing any weight and worrying friends and family.

Secondly, I'm sorry to any 'purist' vegetarians I've offended by attempting to label myself as a hopeful vegetarian... but I'm sure most of you would fall in the category of, "I'm a vegetarian but..." (the whole fish arguement can come in here). I'm doing my own thing, and I don't care if I have to say, "I'm a vegetarian _but_ I eat what I hunt because I know it's been destroyed in one of the most humane and painless ways possible and that it's lived a life free of cruelty and excess chemicals, etc.". I'm still going to hunt, I don't think I could give up that... but I'm not going to hunt and not eat what I kill.

Now then, thank you guys for all the support I've recieved (special mention here Kristy!), I really look forward to what I'm doing and I know that I'll never end the whole process... that animals still will be killed and farmed no matter what one person does... but I'm doing no harm and I'd like to think I'm making a difference, and maybe even influencing and educating a few other people close to me.


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## PhilK (Aug 29, 2010)

I won't voice my opinions about vegos and vegans here (I bet you can guess what they are from that statement ) but I would like to ask a few questions.

1. Have you ever been to an abattoir or had anything at all to do with farming? 
You do realise that beef in Australia is raised essentially the same as a wild deer? Mostly they are mustered twice a year for management and the rest of the time they roam the paddocks, free as birds. Abattoirs dispatch their animals efficiently and humanely - much more humanely than most hunters manage to.

2. I had a mate who was veggo but ate what he killed - here's a question: do you hunt with bullets? If so, and you shot a deer and missed it and had to track it for half an hour before finishing the job would you eat it? That isn't a humane death ... it's certainly much LESS humane than all the cows get at the abattoir.


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## vrhq08 (Aug 29, 2010)

Oh anfd your in luck vegedelights are awesome and new to coles is quorn or something brand fake meat products so u can still cook most meals ud be uste off but use them instead of mean. i love curried vege sausages mmm


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## slim6y (Aug 29, 2010)

vrhq08 said:


> Oh anfd your in luck vegedelights are awesome and new to coles is quorn or something brand fake meat products so u can still cook most meals ud be uste off but use them instead of mean. i love curried vege sausages mmm


 
There's a reason to make sure you eat red meat....


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## PhilK (Aug 29, 2010)

Hahaha slim you're on fire


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## Laghairt (Aug 29, 2010)

Phill,

I've worked on cattle stations, dairy farms and for a meat lobby group so I understand the Australian red meat industry better than most; however I must admit my reasons for choosing not to eat red meat have more to do with heath considerations rather than ethical concerns.

I don't hunt.

You are still young but you seem like a bright guy, hopefully you will become more open minded as you mature and learn not to make too many assumptions about people based on their diet. You will be better for it.





PhilK said:


> I won't voice my opinions about vegos and vegans here (I bet you can guess what they are from that statement ) but I would like to ask a few questions.
> 
> 1. Have you ever been to an abattoir or had anything at all to do with farming?
> You do realise that beef in Australia is raised essentially the same as a wild deer? Mostly they are mustered twice a year for management and the rest of the time they roam the paddocks, free as birds. Abattoirs dispatch their animals efficiently and humanely - much more humanely than most hunters manage to.
> ...


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 29, 2010)

PhilK said:


> I won't voice my opinions about vegos and vegans here (I bet you can guess what they are from that statement ) but I would like to ask a few questions.
> 
> 1. Have you ever been to an abattoir or had anything at all to do with farming?
> You do realise that beef in Australia is raised essentially the same as a wild deer? Mostly they are mustered twice a year for management and the rest of the time they roam the paddocks, free as birds. Abattoirs dispatch their animals efficiently and humanely - much more humanely than most hunters manage to.
> ...



Would love to hear your opinion, as always, Phil  

But, to answer your question, yes I have had a great deal to do cattle/sheep farming, abattoirs, etc. Surely you've seen the battery hens and small-scale piggery at Gatton, but have you visited some of the large-scale ones. Unpleasant, and a large part of the reason behind my dietary decision. 



vrhq08 said:


> Oh anfd your in luck vegedelights are awesome and new to coles is quorn or something brand fake meat products so u can still cook most meals ud be uste off but use them instead of mean. i love curried vege sausages mmm



It's really good to have this stuff readily available. A word of warning, though - these products are often derived from soya and wheat products, so if you're celiac, they still aren't a good option, which is a shame, because I find them REALLY tasty for the most part (but I'm celiac - boo.)


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## cris (Aug 29, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> It's really good to have this stuff readily available. A word of warning, though - these products are often derived from soya and wheat products, so if you're celiac, they still aren't a good option, which is a shame, because I find them REALLY tasty for the most part (but I'm celiac - boo.)


 
Hook into some hook worms, assuming that its ethical to use animals for your health. Also soya and wheat products cause massive environmental destruction, lots of animals and habitat are destroyed for wheat and soy production. I wonder how many roos get shot and left to rot in Australia for wheat production? If you eat wheat the blood is on your hands :lol:


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 29, 2010)

You're a stirrer, cris :lol: 

I don't eat wheat, either  So TAKE THAT!!


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## LadyJ (Aug 29, 2010)

I haven't seen them first hand, Phil, but I do know in any mass/commercial scale of killing they'll do anything to speed the process along to churn out more profits. Things are missed... all that the big places care for is money, not the welfare of animals. Nothing;s going to change my mind.

As for missing a shot hunting, it does happen, but not often... you don't shoot unless you know you can kill it.


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## PhilK (Aug 29, 2010)

Sorry guys my question was to the original poster as she said she hunts but always good to get varying opinions.. so many people who go veggo to "save the poor animals" have never seen an abattoir or had anything to do with meat production, hence my question. Some lame animal right activists take some yucky pictures and use red font on a website and then all the people who can't form their own opinions give up meat. (Not having a go at anyone personally here just a general observation I have made).

I agree with Cris.. veggos and especially vegans are quick to ignore the fact HUGE tracts of land are put aside for their vegetarian lifestyles. Roos, rabbits, all sorts of birds etc are shot for eating the crops. Mice and rats are slaughtered in their thousands when the combine harvester rolls through. Pesticides and fertilisers are used and run off into the waterways killing fish and turtles.. but it doesn't matter because there is no meat on their plate so they can have the moral high ground.



LadyJ said:


> I haven't seen them first hand, Phil, but I do know in any mass/commercial scale of killing they'll do anything to speed the process along to churn out more profits. Things are missed... all that the big places care for is money, not the welfare of animals. Nothing;s going to change my mind.


 Uh huh.. so you haven't seen them, or had anything to do with them at all, but you know all about them? How they treat their animals? What drives them? Arrghh this is exactly what I meant.. How can you possibly be opposed to something you know nothing about? This really makes me see red.

I have been to my fair share of abattoirs and EVERY one I have been to has been nothing but the best standards.. they have vets there to ensure meat quality and welfare and they are constantly being examined by the authorities to ensure animal welfare is acceptable. A lot of people seem to think abattoirs like killing animals and causing them pain? The animals feel and know NOTHING.. they stick their heads through the door then "bang" and its lights out.. they are completely oblivious. Why on earth would abattoirs want to make their jobs harder by hurting the animals and getting welfare lawsuits?


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 29, 2010)

I think there would be plenty of veggos or vegans whose decisions have nothing to do with a moral high ground as opposed to making what they feel is the right choice for them, for whatever reasons. It's naive to think that a big decision like cutting out meat, animal by-products, wheat, dairy etc. has anything to do with being able to "lord" it over someone who doesn't.


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## PhilK (Aug 29, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> I think there would be plenty of veggos or vegans whose decisions have nothing to do with a moral high ground as opposed to making what they feel is the right choice for them, for whatever reasons. It's naive to think that a big decision like cutting out meat, animal by-products, wheat, dairy etc. has anything to do with being able to "lord" it over someone who doesn't.


 You evidently don't know the same veggos I do . I suppose in a vet degree most of them are doing it as a moral/ethical thing, not as a diet thing.. I do agree that there are plenty of veggos who do it for other reasons and that's fine.

When it comes down to it, peope can do whatever they like and as long as they're not yammering in my ear about how I should stop eating meat they're fine by me.. I just hate when people make uninformed decisions i.e. "the meat industry is cruel and barbaric even though I've never seen it".


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## Laghairt (Aug 29, 2010)

Agreed. In fact if you read some of the posts on this thread it seems that people who eat meat believe they can "lord" over those who choose not to. 



Kristy_07 said:


> I think there would be plenty of veggos or vegans whose decisions have nothing to do with a moral high ground as opposed to making what they feel is the right choice for them, for whatever reasons. It's naive to think that a big decision like cutting out meat, animal by-products, wheat, dairy etc. has anything to do with being able to "lord" it over someone who doesn't.


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## LadyJ (Aug 29, 2010)

I haven't seen them, I can't just stroll in there to watch now can I? I've known people that work at them however and they say they'll rush to get the job done faster... look, I think mass methods are wrong and I oppose them, I don't clarification to do that.

My post was asking if anyone else enjoyed such a lifestyle and what some great meal ideas were and I've got a great response. While I am open to questions I'd rather avoid being labelled as 'ignorant'.


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 29, 2010)

LadyJ, the fact that you have started a thread asking for advice and opinions, I think, directly shows that no one could label you as ignorant.


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## PhilK (Aug 29, 2010)

I don't recall labelling anybody as ignorant?

Anouc, I agree that a lot of people who eat meat think they can lord it over veggos (after all we are right .. kidding), by no means am I saying veggos are the only ones that do that or even that they all do that.. I know plenty of veggos who just go about it for their own reasons without talking it up and of course I have no problem with how they live. Lady J, same goes for you too - good on you for doing what you feel is right and there is plenty of delicious veggo food.

I didn't mean to get into this thread in the way I did sorry, I just wanted to ask a few question as to your decision process. I found out what I needed, thanks for answering, and all the best!


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## Wally (Aug 29, 2010)

I have worked in them, on the kill floor, stock yards, freezers and load out and I can tell you for the most part things are done as humanly as possible. But having thousands of animals penned up in tight quarters leads to some unspeakable sights. And LadyJ is right when she says that it's all about numbers, that's exactly what you're up against when you potentially have 1000 head of cattle coming through in one shift. 

But I still eat meat.


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## PhilK (Aug 29, 2010)

Wally I agree it is all about numbers.. but abattoirs have staff that are solely there for animal welfare reasons. It is in no abattoir's best interest to allow welfare practices to be poor - for one thing, meat quality degrades quickly if animals are under stress so from a profit point of view it's counter productive. For another thing, abattoirs have enough problems from lobby groups etc without giving them extra ammunition.. They certainly do every possible thing they can to treat the animals humanely in my experience.


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## Wally (Aug 29, 2010)

Spare me Phil, I've trimmed the mould off fores and hinds before they went out.


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## cris (Aug 29, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> I don't eat wheat, either  So TAKE THAT!!


 
I figured that since you said you were celiac, hook worms are an effective treatment for celiac disease. Considering they dig in through your skin rather than being killed and eaten i think they would be vegetarian friendly.


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## LadyJ (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks Phil and sorry to get snappy (I need my hamburger, haha). And Wally, your experience is pretty much a testiment to why I've taken up my decision... in my opinion, kudos to you for still stomaching meat!


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 29, 2010)

I think I could probably manage to find some in Vietnam  Or they'll find me more to the point!


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## Wally (Aug 29, 2010)

And Phil I don't disagree that there are Vets and meat inspectors available at abattoirs, and the Vets do a wonderful job under very trying circumstances sometimes. My dealings with the inspectors, which are a part of the relevant state health departments often left a lot to be desired sometimes. It wasn't unusual for the only input from an inspector was to examine the closed rear door of a loaded refrigerated semi and put his lock tag through the lock, thus signing off as having complied with regulations.


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## redbellybite (Aug 30, 2010)

My post wasnt aimed at the individual veg head ,because they have made a life style change --alls good and that is a personal choice no doubt ...BUT my beef(hahaaha) was with people claiming 'THE HOLYIER THEN THOUGH " approach ANIMAL RIGHTS crud ..and in an underlying way making any of us meat eaters classed as MURDERERS and supporters of animal cruelty ...yet LEATHER comes from DEAD YES DEAD animals ...double standards often comes with this territory and it gets up my MEAT EATING NOSE!...If eating a tofu burger instead of a nice rich beefy goodness dripping in onion and garlic sauce ,is your choice well so be it ..


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## LadyJ (Aug 30, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> My post wasnt aimed at the individual veg head ,because they have made a life style change --alls good and that is a personal choice no doubt ...BUT my beef(hahaaha) was with people claiming 'THE HOLYIER THEN THOUGH " approach ANIMAL RIGHTS crud ..and in an underlying way making any of us meat eaters classed as MURDERERS and supporters of animal cruelty ...yet LEATHER comes from DEAD YES DEAD animals ...double standards often comes with this territory and it gets up my MEAT EATING NOSE!...If eating a tofu burger instead of a nice rich beefy goodness dripping in onion and garlic sauce ,is your choice well so be it ..



I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say sorry... but I don't think I'm above anyone for my choice.

And just to point out, I haven't eaten chicken in 7 or so years and have only eat free-range eggs (despite the fact thery're just as bad in most cases)... so I'm hoping it won't be too hard on me.


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## slim6y (Aug 30, 2010)

Does this help...

Oxtail does involve more work to cook than most other cuts, mainly because it is best to refrigerate the casserole overnight to allow the fat to set on top. This can then be lifted off. Richly-flavoured, I like this oxtail recipe served under a fluffy-baked puff pastry pie topping.
Ingredients

* About 2kg meaty oxtail, cut into joints and trimmed
* About ½ cup seasoned flour
* 2-3 Tbsp oil
* 2 carrots, peeled and sliced
* 2 large onions, peeled and chopped
* ¼-½ cup raisins or currants
* 4 tsp minced garlic
* 2 bay leaves, crushed
* 1 Tbsp chopped fresh thyme or ½ tsp dried
* 1 tsp celery salt or celery seeds
* 2 cups red wine
* 1 cup port
* 2 Tbsp tomato paste
* 1 Tbsp balsamic vinegar

Method

Turn the slow cooker on to pre-warm while gathering and preparing the ingredients.

Toss the oxtails in the seasoned flour, shaking off the excess. 

If wishing to brown the ingredients then:

Heat a good dash of oil in a large heavy-based frying pan and when hot, brown the oxtail pieces well. Do this in batches to prevent the oxtail from stewing. The browner the oxtail, the more flavoursome the finished dish. Set aside.

Brown the carrots and onion in any remaining oil. Add an extra dash of oil if required.

Into the pre-warmed slow cooker put the oxtail, carrots, raisins or currants, garlic, bay leaves, thyme and celery salt.

In a jug stir together the red wine, port, tomato paste and balsamic vinegar. Pour into the slow cooker, stir as well as possible to mix the ingredients. Cover with the lid.

Cook on low for 7-8 hours or on high for 4-6 hours.

Use a flat large wide spoon to lift the fat off the top of the braise.

Serve the oxtail with your favourite vegetables. Alternatively pull the meat from the bones and return to the casserole to serve or pop the cooled filling into a pie dish, cover with puff or savoury pastry and bake in a hot oven until the pastry is golden and the pie hot.
Allyson’s Tips

- If time permits, chill the cooked braise overnight to allow excess fat to rise to the top and be easily lifted off. Reheat to serve. If reheating in the crock pot, allow about 1½ hours on high.

*To make it vegetarian just remove the oxtail...*


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## redbellybite (Aug 30, 2010)

slim6y said:


> Does this help...
> 
> Oxtail does involve more work to cook than most other cuts, mainly because it is best to refrigerate the casserole overnight to allow the fat to set on top. This can then be lifted off. Richly-flavoured, I like this oxtail recipe served under a fluffy-baked puff pastry pie topping.
> Ingredients
> ...


wonders if you really need to kill the whole OX now if ya only want its tail (joking)

I would love it the way it is SLIMEY tail included 


And I said ladyJ those that claim the HTT approach ...if its simply because you want to give up meat thats fine ..but you cant claim animal cruelty ..and own a pair of leather shoes or any leather goods as well, cause even though you may have avoided eating the meat ..you still got benefit from the dead beast ...that is my point ..eating eggs or drinking milk or dairy products I cant see any double standards at all ..no animals are being killed for that purpose ...I never understood that theory ever ..unless its a personal I dont like eggs or dairy... and FISH are alive and animals so dont get that theory of its ok to eat fish but wont eat meat ...unless red meat is the problem ..but then chicken is a white meat ? see the confusion


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## LadyJ (Aug 30, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> wonders if you really need to kill the whole OX now if ya only want its tail (joking)
> 
> I would love it the way it is SLIMEY tail included
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying, I try to avoid all by-products, etc. (leather), but it really is impossible to totally seperate yourself from everything. While most would agree nothing's killed for dairy... think about where the milk comes from. A cow? Yeah, that's a given, but cows don't just produce milk at all times... so the cow is inseminated and the young is taken and locked away from it's mother as soon as possable, causing great distress to the cow and calf (tasty veal...). While I know cows don't have a human mindset, imagine your baby being taken away... this is why we get the loud and distressed mooing we here at certain times... it's enough to break my heart.


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## cris (Aug 30, 2010)

LadyJ said:


> I get what you're saying, I try to avoid all by-products, etc. (leather), but it really is impossible to totally seperate yourself from everything. While most would agree nothing's killed for dairy... think about where the milk comes from. A cow? Yeah, that's a given, but cows don't just produce milk at all times... so the cow is inseminated and the young is taken and locked away from it's mother as soon as possable, causing great distress to the cow and calf (tasty veal...). While I know cows don't have a human mindset, imagine your baby being taken away... this is why we get the loud and distressed mooing we here at certain times... it's enough to break my heart.


 
I suggest you never keep any snakes, many rats are kept in terrible conditions, worse than many examples of regulated mass production and obviously young rodents are removed from their parents. No type of farming involves the suffering in natural ecosystems, nature is far more cruel so does that mean we should get rid of natural ecosystems? 

You also enjoy killing wild animals that live in groups, do you not feel sorry for the remaining deer whos companion you have killed for fun?

Im not meaning to have a go at you, i like hunting and dont like most mass produced food industries. I think its important to think things through properly, if you think becoming a vegitarian is good for animal welfare or the environment you are wrong. As i mentioned i suport anyone boycotting particular industries for valid reasons, but that has nothing to do with being a vegitarian. The only way to stop animal suffering is to eliminate all animals.


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## Waterrat (Aug 30, 2010)

We, humans are meant to be omnivores and no one can turn around evolution. If we all switched to vegetarian diet, we would soon die of starvation because to grow enough veg for everybody would strip the Earth of any forest. Yes, that much cleared field we would need to grow veg. Growing vegetables produce is FAR MORE destructive than grazing farm animals - that is a fact.


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## goodmorning (Aug 30, 2010)

I had to have a very restricted diet for about three years and that included excluding meat and milk. Even now i choose vego over a 'normal' diet because its kinda cheaper for me. 

I would recommend taking an iron vitamin c supplement (not as good as the real thing but better than sitting down to an entire plate of spinach every day) like flora floradix (i think) Its very very concentrated and is amazing. I live in NSW and its at all Healthy Life Shops in a brown bottle.

Divide your plate. Protein, Carbs, Vegies. This can be as simple as having some quinoa with steamed boy choi in a tomato style sauce with bread  Also think outside the box. I dont really like tofu so i found other subsitutes for my protein like nuts, beans and bean mixes, legumes etc. 

this website might also help.Essentials of Vegan Nutrition and a Vegan Diet


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## redbellybite (Aug 30, 2010)

where do you get your calcium from if you dont eat or drink any dairy products or eat seafood ...?...if your taking it in a supplement like a tablet form ..are you not still having animal products ?


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## jack (Aug 30, 2010)

the pesticides used on vegetable crops kill vast quantities of pesky arthropods and the like... 
it is likely that a person who subsists on vegetables alone would be responsible for a greater number of animal deaths than someone who subsists on meat alone...
just a thought


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## slim6y (Aug 30, 2010)

jack said:


> the pesticides used on vegetable crops kill vast quantities of pesky arthropods and the like...
> it is likely that a person who subsists on vegetables alone would be responsible for a greater number of animal deaths than someone who subsists on meat alone...
> just a thought


 
Pesticides are in wide use in farmed animals too - not to mention the amounts of pesticides and herbicides that go on to the pasture (in many parts of the world it's so intensively fertilised and pesticided that the only living things are the cattle above the ground....)

Though, contrary to that... In some well maintained pasture - the mass of the worms below the ground is far greater than the mass of the cattle above the ground in the same area!!! In fact, a figure that I actually proved in 1996 to my surprise by digging 15 random 1m by 0.5m holes and worm counting! 

However, the worst killer isn't the vege crops... it's cotton crops - and has been for some time....

Probably now in a race for the biggest environmental disaster is chocolate's palm oil... Palm oil is THE WORST of them all - and those who buy chocolate should be very wary of their ingredients - if they contain palm oil avoid them (watch Australian manufactured Cadbury).

Do a search on Palm Oil if you're a non-believer....


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## LadyJ (Aug 30, 2010)

goodmorning said:


> I had to have a very restricted diet for about three years and that included excluding meat and milk. Even now i choose vego over a 'normal' diet because its kinda cheaper for me.
> 
> I would recommend taking an iron vitamin c supplement (not as good as the real thing but better than sitting down to an entire plate of spinach every day) like flora floradix (i think) Its very very concentrated and is amazing. I live in NSW and its at all Healthy Life Shops in a brown bottle.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for such a helpful post - this is exactly what I was after!

And I'm not going to stop keeping my carnivorous animals... unlike me, they NEED meat, there is no way to turn a snake vegetarian and as I'm not able to farm my own rats and such at the moment the petshop stock are my only option. I understand I may be giving mixed messages to people as I still hunt and keep animals that consume other animals, but keeping my animals and hunting are two very important things to me.


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm not too sure why there are a bunch of meatos on here claiming that veggos are doing all the damage to the environment? How is that constructive to the discussion at all?

At the end of the day, we are all part of the environmental problem, so why try and be discouraging of any kind of dietary change that LadyJ or anyone else might want to make? Own leather shoes - part of the problem. Drive a car - part of the problem. Wear first-hand clothes - part of the problem. Caught a plane any where in your life - MAJOR part of the problem. The thing is, we live in a work where it's just about impossible to do EVERYTHING to help the environment, so you just do what you feel makes a difference and you can manage. What's wrong with that?

Just a bunch of stirrers, you are!!  But we still loves ya


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## Waterrat (Aug 31, 2010)

I can't speak for others but I said and I stand by it - if we ALL turned vegos, the environment would collapse.
Personally, I have nothing against people who don't eat meat because they don't like the taste of it but those who believe they're saving animal's lives or doing something good for their own health are fooling themselves. In many parts of Borneo that I visited, vegos are regarded as loonies with a luxurious habit that the local people can't afford nor can understand.
Sorry if touched the nerve but that's how I see it.

God


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## cris (Aug 31, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> In many parts of Borneo that I visited, vegos are regarded as loonies with a luxurious habit that the local people can't afford nor can understand.


 
Only in Borneo?


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 31, 2010)

Nice sign off, Michael 

I think there's balance. There's also undeniable proof that the amount of meat Western society in particular is having unsustainable environmental impacts, not to mention the land that is used to grow crops to FEED the meat industry. So, it's probably fine that there are some veggos and some not-veggos. At the end of the day, the environment is going to hell in a handbasket at the moment, anyway, but it's still nice to think that you're contributing a LITTLE bit less by not eating meat, not driving a car, not buying leather, farting less, etc.

I haven't been to Borneo, but in Asia, being veggo is very common for religious reasons, and always has been. But it certainly doesn't seem to have an effect on the amount of loons... God, it's weird over here sometimes, vegetarian or not :shock:


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## Waterrat (Aug 31, 2010)

I am sure in other parts of the world too. Intelligent people can see though it, primitive peoples can't understand it.

God (in hiding now)


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## Laghairt (Aug 31, 2010)

I read a study recently that claimed the human brain would not have reached its current of sophistication if ancestral humans didn't eat meat. The study was well done and I agree with its findings. I guess in modern times people have a choice and can substitute meat for a myriad of alternatives with no negative impacts on their health. 

Eating meat in moderation is definitely not a health risk, I don't think anyone has tried to claim that in this thread.


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 31, 2010)

Good point, anouc.

You'd better hide, God. Broccoli worldwide is plotting it's revenge as we speak.


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## slim6y (Aug 31, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> I can't speak for others but I said and I stand by it - if we ALL turned vegos, the environment would collapse.
> 
> God



Michael (AKA God) can I just ask a question in relation to this:

How will the environment collapse?

The reason I ask... the conversion of produce (eg grain) to beef is not 1:1 by any standards. Although we don't eat grass, in Australia and other parts of the world, grass won't sustain a heard of cattle alone. Not to mention the US corn industry would definitely collapse (there's a program about the corn industry - they were a bit to specific and it was horrifically scary what corn goes into - but never-the-less incredibly versatile). 

So if we were to stop farming animals, and left just wild populations (or perhaps revert back to only native species in each country - I know, impossible to do) - then they themselves would have an impact... but a collapse? 

Yes - the world economies would suffer... Not collapse....

I can't see 'collapse' being terribly plausible - disrupt... disturb... but collapse? 

Nitrogenous fertilisers would definitely upset a beautiful eco-system balance... But, we already use them on our animal farms....

Now, I for one, LOVE to eat meat... I'm happy with the way it's treated and cooked... 

I respect the perseverance of my vegan friend next to me at work... He's awesome! And he said pretty much this - if the world turned vegetarian (not vegan) then there would be less war and less hunger assuming logistics could be overcome (I've changed his words slightly to suit the context)... When asked - based on science or veganism... there wasn't a great answer.

Note: People in Borneo also eat anything that moves on its own accord - most bugs, pedes, arachnids... if it has legs, it's food.

I like that... but it still has to be fried in garlic....


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## Waterrat (Aug 31, 2010)

Paul, there is a body of evidence that to feed the world's population with fruit and veg, all the forest would have to be replaced with agricultural fields to grow enough food for all, not to mention the demands for water. Where would the fertilizer come from if we didn't farm animals? To survive on pure vegetarian diet, you can't just eat easy grown species, proteins need to be substituted with nuts, etc, etc.. AND the wildlife would perish too as a consequence.

"Note: People in Borneo also eat anything that moves on its own accord - most bugs, pedes, arachnids... if it has legs, it's food." Not so, they eat pigs, buffalo, chickens, fish, sea food and in the poorer parts such as Kalimantan, they also eat monkeys, snakes, etc..


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## slim6y (Aug 31, 2010)

God... 

If however you just replaced farms with irrigated cropping land (as many many many farms are also irrigated and some intensively so) and fertilised at the same amounts (approximately) they're currently fertilised at (which most farms would require the green green grass and hence fertiliser) then...

I can't see a collapse and neither can I see what all the wildlife would perish as a consequence (if they haven't already).

Again, I love meat... and my meat fed brain dictates that the world's environmental condition would not necessarily improve, but I can not see a feasible reason for it to lead to destruction either... The fertiliser problem we have is already occurring - serpintine will not last another 100 years... Many intensive ammonia products require large amounts of energy, and as do the 'super' phosphates (could smell the sulfur from the fertiliser factory in Chirstchurch....).

So all means of farming is in reality an energy and resource intensive activity - and the balance we have now probably isn't as good as it could be - but unbalancing that may in fact cause a benefit... but unlikely a collapse. 

As for the Borneo thing - I know they eat other things... gosh... this God doesn't listen any better than that other one (not you Bredli84, you're still my real god).... My suggestion was they ALSO eat anything with LEGS!!! Including those meaty carcasses and INSECTS etc....

Geeeeez... It's so hard for you to think down to our level... it must give you a headache (a brain the size of a planet and all.... hey.. you don't happen to be manically depressed too do you???) 

Let the meat eaters argue it out....


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## Laghairt (Aug 31, 2010)

Waterrat:

According to a 2006 United Nations initiative, the livestock industry is one of the largest contributors to environmental degradation worldwide, and modern practices of raising animals for food contributes on a "massive scale" to deforestation, air and water pollution, land degradation, loss of topsoil, climate change, the overuse of resources including oil and water, and loss of biodiversity. The initiative concluded that "the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global." In 2006 FAO estimated that meat industry contributes 18% of all emissions of greenhouse gases. This figure was revised in 2009 by two World Bank scientists and estimated at 51% minimum. 




Waterrat said:


> Paul, there is a body of evidence that to feed the world's population with fruit and veg, all the forest would have to be replaced with agricultural fields to grow enough food for all, not to mention the demands for water. Where would the fertilizer come from if we didn't farm animals? To survive on pure vegetarian diet, you can't just eat easy grown species, proteins need to be substituted with nuts, etc, etc.. AND the wildlife would perish too as a consequence.


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## Waterrat (Aug 31, 2010)

Paul, a massive T-bone is on the BBQ as we speak.

Only cattle, sheep and goats eat grass - most vegetables need rich soils that HAS TO BE regularly fertilized and watered..... ah, bugger this, the steak smells good!

lesser, omnivorous God


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## cris (Aug 31, 2010)

The only real environmental problem in the world is overpopulation, its that simple.


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## slim6y (Aug 31, 2010)

Back in 1996 I was charged with reading many statistical instruments that measured noticeable changes in NOx - well over 90% of the pollutant in the rural areas of Southern Canterbury was attributed to livestock, not horticultural. 

The largest users of nitrogenous fertilisers... Livestock... not horticultural.

The largest users of phosphate fertilisers... Livestock... not horticultural.

Maybe much has changed in the 14 years since I was testing this - and that I don't doubt... But deforestation was mostly attributed to palm oil in the past few years, with live stock and then horticultural practices (excluding palm oil)....

Most vegetables - potatoes and carrots grow sustainable on low fertile lands - for example, again in my studies, the peat district of swampy north Christchurch is where the country's best potatoes are grown... Try raisin a cow on that land?

However... On saying that, their practices were very much far from sustainable - burning off the top layer of peat every year...

Most brassicas, legumes (pulses) all will survive in pretty poor conditions...

The best conditions are usually reserved for fast growing trees etc...

Most agricultural land that I have visited would suit the purpose for many vegetables and/or fruits... However, other conditions need to be factored in, not soil quality.

I've got to say - as far as god goes in this one... I'm throwing that bible out...

Meat and fruit/vege production is not sustainable regardless of which way we go... However, environmental collapse will not occur if we chose to go only one way...

Signed - an atheist (now).

Oh - and you do realise we fertilise grass - right????

PS - note that the DPI in Vic suggests that good fertile land is essential for livestock raring... in fact, I'd say that (as above) fertilisers are more widely used to raise livestock - than to raise a carrot.... As far as taste goes... I prefer the livestock... But at least a carrot isn't green!


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 31, 2010)

Anouc - that's why I'm a veggo 

cris - you're right also. Overpopulation is the reason we need so much food products & leads to environmental degradation etc...

I can be veggo but stopping overpopulation is beyond me, me thinks...


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## redbellybite (Aug 31, 2010)

I dont care what you eat really ..if your diet consists of lead base paint and asbestos fibres ..thats your business ...MY PEEEEEVE WASNT WITH WHAT YOU EAT ...BUT what SOME OF YOU CLAIM WHY YOU ARE VEGO .. DOUBLE STANDARDS doesnt wash ...personal health reasons? ...go for it ...to protect the enviroment? WAKE UP YOU ARE JUST AS RESPONSIBLE LIVING THE WAY YOU DO as any of us steak munching lover is ..


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## ravan (Aug 31, 2010)

cris said:


> The only real environmental problem in the world is overpopulation, its that simple.


 

exactly!!!!!!

now, if everyone would just stop pro-creating for a while... the world would be a better place.


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## redbellybite (Aug 31, 2010)

ravan said:


> exactly!!!!!!
> 
> now, if everyone would just stop pro-creating for a while... the world would be a better place.


guarenteed there will be no more pro-creating from this little duck


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## ravan (Aug 31, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> guarenteed there will be no more pro-creating from this little duck


 
haha, now if only we could educate the youngin's...


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 31, 2010)

Rbb - we should be trying to do something for the environment though shouldn't we? Being veggo is just one way of helping. I don't think anyone was lording it over the meat eaters & it's not really hypocritical if u own leather, either. You just have to do what u can  and I like tofu :lol:


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## slim6y (Aug 31, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Rbb - we should be trying to do something for the environment though shouldn't we? Being veggo is just one way of helping. I don't think anyone was lording it over the meat eaters & it's not really hypocritical if u own leather, either. You just have to do what u can  and I like tofu :lol:


 
Ok... this is where I have to draw the line...

No... It does not help the environment being a vego. In fact, when you look at intensive cropping methods (ie look back at a previous post about potatoes) you'll see...

If you said you only purchased biodynamic produce and meats then I'd say you're doing your bit.

If you said you purchased only organic produce and meat, I'd say you're doing about half as much as you should be...

If you purchase LED downlights (I know where you can get some very good ones at a very good price), installed an energy efficient household and used only rainwater...

Then I'd say you're doing your bit...

But being a vego does not 'do your bit' no matter what sort of surrealist you are!

And I'm sorry - but not eating meat does not begin to save the planet - nor is it a small step in the right direction... 

being biodynamic IS!

PS - PM me if you want to start 'doing your bit' with the LED lighting


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

Chill out, slimey. Telling me I'm wrong is not going to endear me to biodynamicism or a particular brand of LEDs. 

There is plenty of info to suggest that more people eating less commercially produced meat would help the environment (sorry, I'm not in a position this second to give u hard evidence, but it doesn't mean I haven't read it). There's plenty of info to suggest it DOESNT help, but it's my perogative to choose my diet for whatever reasons, so why u think u get to draw a line, I'm not too sure. I'm informed on both sides of the argument, and I happen to choose the one u disagree with. Oops! 

It's certainly not the only lifestyle choice I've made to try an decrease my personal impact on the environment (not too mention, my health is heaps better when I'm not eating meat everyday), so what exactly are u drawing a line through?

There's evidence to suggest that it does help the environment, which I find convincing, and I feel good for it. Not owning my own house & living in 2nd world country makes it a bit hard to be 100% biodynamic but I promise I'll work on it. Being 100% biodynamic isn't the only way to "do your bit", either.


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## cris (Sep 1, 2010)

LED's are effiecient but not comparable to incandescant performance, they may be a vegan food but only environmetally friendly if made with solar power. Eating LED's is only reccomended if you live in an overpopulated country IMHO.


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## redbellybite (Sep 1, 2010)

Kristy ...how can one say they dont want to eat meat because they arent in support of killing animals ..then go out and buy 10 pairs of leather shoes ...DOUBLE STANDARDS ...that is my point ...like I said before what you eat for your own personal healthy regime is holy and soley your business and I dont care ,thats great, if it makes you feel happy and good about yourself ...BUT!!!! saying its for the enviroment whilst sitting on your leather computer chair with your leather shoes on is HYPOCRISY:meaning(a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.) THAT IS MY PEEVE!
You either put ya money where ya mouth is if you are going to claim animal rights like that and avoid animal products fully ..or SHUT YOUR MOUTHS and get off the SOAPBOX ...


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## LadyJ (Sep 1, 2010)

Oh my god... it's gone from asking about recipes and some friendly advice to LED lights and people harping on about their superioty comlpexes! I think SOME people need to get off THEIR soapboxes and but out where no helpful advice is being given...

I don't own any leather that I'm aware of, I don't buy it, I don't support the mass slaughter methods involved with commercial killing. Alright? I would like this to be a helpful and friendly discussion... trust APS to turn that around.

But thank you to everyone that's helped. Can anyone suggest a nice vegetarian restraunt in Melbourne? I plan on taking my boy out somewhere nice and although I know of a few places, I'm not sure what's good.


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## redbellybite (Sep 1, 2010)

LADYJ I believe in the first part of your thread you quoted the start of all this hypocrisy when you said quote..."I've made the decision to become vegetarian at the end of the year. I know that people _should_ eat meat and we're at the top of the food-chain for a reason... but that's not why I'm doing this. The reason I've taken my vow is due to the cruelty, suffering and in-humane nature of commercial and mass-slaughter methods. The only meat I'll eat will be what I, or someone I know has humanely gathered (I enjoy hunting... still get my venison!)....HAD you simply wanted some recipes your thread should have just been WANTING SOME GOOD VEGO RECIPES ...see no double standards just a simple request ...you put up a debatable thread and you now have one ...


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## Funkstaa (Sep 1, 2010)

I've heard the vege bar has some great food, not all pish posh tho a bit more laid back cafe style,lentil as anything is delish,the white lotus,Gopals,Moroccan Soup Bar - there's a heap, some not 'vegetarian only' but all of those cater for vege/vegan...


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## Crystal..Discus (Sep 1, 2010)

I don't know how deep into becoming a vegetarian you want to become, but a good recipe I have (if you still drink milk/eat eggs) is a pumpkin/feta quiche. Usual quiche base (shortening/puff pastry, your choice), then spinach, mushroom, onion, pumpkin and crumbled feta mixed throughout. What I love about it is that you can add as little or as much as you like as a filling. Always bake at 180 degrees, but every quiche is different so you need to keep an eye on it (about average is 20 minutes though.) Garden salad with french dressing on the side is always a favourite 

Just remember to cook the mushroom and onion, boil the pumpkin, and blanch the spinach (easier to control.)


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## slim6y (Sep 1, 2010)

Smoking cigarettes is purely vegetarian....


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## Megzz (Sep 1, 2010)

Michelle Bridges crunch time cookbook has some really good low fat vegetarian recipes too. Of course some take a bit of getting used to, like shepherds pie which uses lentils instead of mince. Theres also a char-grilled veggie terrine, zucchini eggplant and mushroom lasagne, some stir frys, cauliflower spinach and ricotta bake and heaps more. I really reccommend it.


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> Kristy ...how can one say they dont want to eat meat because they arent in support of killing animals ..then go out and buy 10 pairs of leather shoes ...DOUBLE STANDARDS ...that is my point ...like I said before what you eat for your own personal healthy regime is holy and soley your business and I dont care ,thats great, if it makes you feel happy and good about yourself ...BUT!!!! saying its for the enviroment whilst sitting on your leather computer chair with your leather shoes on is HYPOCRISY:meaning(a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.) THAT IS MY PEEVE!
> You either put ya money where ya mouth is if you are going to claim animal rights like that and avoid animal products fully ..or SHUT YOUR MOUTHS and get off the SOAPBOX ...



Okay, I get what you're saying, and I agree that it is double standards. That said, it's hard NOT to have double standards if you decide to support anything remotely environmentally friendly. 

If you decide not to drive a car, I bet you still buy food from your local Woolies which has been shipped there by a boat/truck/plane. If you decide to use recycled paper only, I bet you still use the occasional toothpick made from a piece of old growth forest. If you decide to buy an electric car, you are still supporting lithium mining, which will eventually be really bad for the earth, too. 

Tasmania set up a wind-power station that was right in the middle of a bunch of endangered Tasmanian wedge-tailed eagle nesting sites and killed a heap of them :shock: 

I remember one old guy tell me that the Lions Club had given a bunch of money to some villages way up in the mountains in Nepal to save people's eyesight (like Fred Hollows) - sight was saved, people lived longer, used more resources than before, cut down more trees on the mountain for firewood etc., there was a big rain, mountainside collapsed and caused landslide, and killed THOUSANDS of people living on the riverbanks of Bangladesh :shock:

My point is, no matter what soapbox you're standing on, it's probably squishing some poor defenseless endangered field mouse underneath it, made out of old-growth timber, or shipped their by some big dirty smelly truck made predominantly out of seal pup leather products. It doesn't mean you stop trying or just give up - especially when you're in me and J's generation  It's our job to be like this!! But, I'm certainly not condemning you for eating meat. And I definitely don't have a leather work chair - it's plastic (Vietnam is so lousy sometimes).

Good debate so far, though  



slim6y said:


> Smoking cigarettes is purely vegetarian....



GIGGLE! (Sorry I was cranky at your post last night - PM me about those LEDs )


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## raaaa (Sep 1, 2010)

I made the decision to go veggo again in april (i was raised vego and have been on and off my whole life) and let me just say i feel better for it people may be suposed to eat meat but certainly not to the extent that we do nowadays eating meat everyday of the week is excessive and unneccecary besides there are some wonderfull substitutes out there marinated tofu is way better than its chicken counterpart and if your having trouble making the switch theres a company called Quorn that do a range of meat and soy free products such as sausage rolls, pasties, mince, chicken parma pattie things, and even lazagne and they actualy taste good!


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## raaaa (Sep 1, 2010)

Oh things to be wary of

Cheese- Rene(n) enzime taken from the stomach of a cow or pig bega or vegetarian eden use a vegetable substitute
Maccas and HJ chips infact most hot chips are coated in beef tallow
canned soup chicken stock velish is safe and nommy


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## Tikanderoga (Sep 1, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> if it has legs, it's food."


Love this quote.  

Speaking of which.. in Europe, peaple even eat horses - and it's quite tasty too. A true tartar is made from horse meat, not beef. Haven't seen any horse meat being sold here though.


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## LadyJ (Sep 1, 2010)

Excellent, thanks everyone! Really look forward to going out for a vegetarian meal with my better half (and he is too, so endearing!), he's been to Lentil as Anything and we can't wait to try some of the recipes and ither suggestions - yum!


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## slim6y (Sep 1, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> GIGGLE! (Sorry I was cranky at your post last night - PM me about those LEDs )



Awwwww.. I can't stay mad at you.... 

Will PM...


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## redbellybite (Sep 1, 2010)

Kristy ..I agree ...and it is a good debate now ...just one thing I dont shop at woolies  bahahaha


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

I though there is not much difference between Woolies and Coles. :lol:


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

There's not - they're both the Debil. And neither are vegetarian OR biodynamic :shock:

Awww this is nice, like Christmas Day... the interesting topic, the quiet bickering, the escalating violence that is then all curbed by a stiff drink and a group hug  I love Christmas.... everyone DID have a drink, though, right? Not just me? 

I love you guys. Now where's my present?? Michael, I'd like a *GREEN* one from you :lol:


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

Since you have declared yourself a vego, I wouldn't trust with a *GREEN*. Isn't it what you guys eat?


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

I just thought of a new niche.....

Tofu snakes!


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## redbellybite (Sep 1, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Since you have declared yourself a vego, I wouldn't trust with a *GREEN*. Isn't it what you guys eat?


BAHAHAHA love it 

Kristy, what is nice, is SOME can debate and not take it to heart SADLY unlike like some sensitive snot blowing I feel you are abusing me types ....
Now, I am going to remove the knives from my back ,and settle down with a drink


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

We'll share a steak sanga at the next catch-up, RBB, and a wine.... underneath the romantic glow of biodynamic LEDs to make up for the juicy, tasty meat 

Michael can join us and drop off the *GREENS*, just for some healthy balance :lol:


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## Ingrid (Sep 2, 2010)

ubermensch said:


> Alot of abbotoirs actually slice the tendons on the feet of cattle so they can't "run" BEFORE they get shot in the head with metal bolts. Cause otherwise, how hard would it be to run around after a paddock of sheep or cows with a fancy gun in hand?
> It's absolutely terrible and inhumane, not as quick as people would like to think.




This made me lol SO much.. perhaps someone should do a little more research on abattoirs before making such statements. I worked in a (sheep) abattoir for a few years.. it's about as humane as is possible! There's not a whole lot of suffering going on.. and certainly no slaughtermen running around paddocks chasing panicking sheep with bolts through their skull!


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## Whisper2 (Sep 2, 2010)

Tikanderoga said:


> Speaking of which.. in Europe, peaple even eat horses - and it's quite tasty too. A true tartar is made from horse meat, not beef. Haven't seen any horse meat being sold here though.


 
Horse meat is now being sold at a particular butcher over in WA... Gourmet horse meat on the menu in WA

A FB page of people who are trying to stop it... STOP the sale of horse meat for human consumption in WA! | Facebook

Good luck to you LadyJ.. It's an interesting path to take but as long as you are happy about your choice why not try it? Worst you can do is fail and have to go back to eating beautiful chuncks of delicious meat... mmmmm *drools*


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## slim6y (Sep 2, 2010)

Sorry, but I have to bring up the horse meat issue...

I really really want to try eating horse. My girlfriend is Swedish, they do have unusual taste in foods - but they eat horse all the time (it's common).

But what an outcry on the 'eating horse' issue... What the???

That butcher received death threats.... WHY???

From a hardcore vegetarian point of view I'd say all butchers deserve the death penalty... But what is this butcher doing that's not already being done in most of western civilisation? 

Apparently it's low fat, tender, tasty. 

Now as far as a vegetarian would go - they would choose not to eat it - fair enough (their choice and all)... But why the really huge outcry on eating horse?

It is noted horse already feeds our cats and dogs... horse is already slaughtered for glue, gelatine etc... So why can't we eat it as well???


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## LadyJ (Sep 2, 2010)

Whisper2 said:


> Horse meat is now being sold at a particular butcher over in WA... Gourmet horse meat on the menu in WA
> 
> A FB page of people who are trying to stop it... STOP the sale of horse meat for human consumption in WA! | Facebook
> 
> Good luck to you LadyJ.. It's an interesting path to take but as long as you are happy about your choice why not try it? Worst you can do is fail and have to go back to eating beautiful chuncks of delicious meat... mmmmm *drools*



Oh my god... I can't believe people get so easily upset by the prospect of horse meat yet will sit down at their tables and wolf down a steak... sentience is sentience and horses aren't some kind of 'higher being'. Hell, if farmed and killed in a manner I see as humane I would LOVE to try it, always have! The Facebook group was an entertaining read...

Haha, but anyway, thanks for the support and good luck - I'll need it... and don't you dare tempt me with delicious meat... I'm going to die without my McDonalds! :lol:


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## Whisper2 (Sep 2, 2010)

The main problem was he was first going to be buying from dogger sales over there ('apparently') and it was a worry as most of those horses are pumped full of chemicals throughout their life which dont leave their systems and are harmful to humans (why pet food places use them is beyond me so i just dont buy there brands). 
Then most came to their senses and realised that this would not happen so now it's just the people who think horses have a right to live/ are able to be used for better purposes who are unhappy. 

There was also mention about the way in which the horses would be slaughtered as well... It was apparently not as simple as the bolt to the head trick and horse people got very cranky. There will be a protest there soon though.. not sure of the date yet but will be interesting, people are flying over and horses being involved etc.


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 2, 2010)

The hardest part is the hangovers with no Whopper with cheese to make me better... Tofu burger is just not the same (((


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## LadyJ (Sep 2, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> The hardest part is the hangovers with no Whopper with cheese to make me better... Tofu burger is just not the same (((


 
Oh my god... don't go there Kristy, you'll make me cry!


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## slim6y (Sep 2, 2010)

eggs are better for a hangover anyhow - and so long you're ok with them - they'll do the job...

Egg with pita bread crispy soldiers served with a side of powerade...

Pita bread crispy soldiers are easy and I use wholemeal pita breads and that's very vego...

Brush both sides of a pita bread with macadamia or olive oil, add seasoning, I love the Masterfoods Thai seasoning. Use a pizza slice to make the soldiers (thin - about 2cm wide strips). Bake at 220'C for 6 minutes or until crisp...

Boil 2 - 3 eggs (I use the method where water is already hot - and then add the eggs (room temperature already) and turn down the water to about half and let them go for exactly 6 minutes - funny, the same time it takes the pita bread - time it right and they're all ready at the same time).

dip your pita bread crispy soldiers in the soft boiled egg and enjoy... Filling, healthy, did I mention vegetarian?

Use this for hangover - it works better than a maccas or HJs terrible meal... Plus it's vegetarian (if eggs are ok with you).


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## slim6y (Sep 2, 2010)

Sorry, I want to justify my last statement from a reputable website 

Eggs

Eating eggs the morning after provides energy like any other food, which is the primary benefit. But eggs do also contain large amounts of cysteine, the substance that breaks down the hangover-causing toxin acetaldehyde in the liver's easily depleted glutathione. Therefore, eggs can potentially help mop up the left-over toxins. 

Source Discovery Health "How Hangovers Work"


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## LadyJ (Sep 2, 2010)

Mmm, Slim, I think you've just restored my faith! Putting that recipe away for breakfast!


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## Megzz (Sep 2, 2010)

Actually I discovered a weird thing (fluke!). Next time you're really drunk eat a cheese sandwich before you go to sleep/pass out. Everytime I do that I wake up with no hangover no matter how much I drink. Sounds stupid but it works for me haha.


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## cris (Sep 2, 2010)

For hangovers the 1st step is not getting overly dehydrated (avoid straight spirits and no water or beer in between), 2nd step is rehydrating and 3rd step is drinking beer when you wake up(energy and brings you back to 'nice' drunk state). Valium before crashing also helps, but im not sure why or if its healthy and drugs are bad. Being 16-17yo also seemed to work for a while.


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## LadyJ (Sep 3, 2010)

Thank you for your, err, suggestions? Haha, I'll have to try and remember those next time I decide to have some fun! Reminds me of some parties a year or so back with my boyfriend at the time... his ma had the job of "hydrating" us and we'd all be forced to drink insane amounts of water before we were permitted to sleep! It worked... too bad I was up everyone 5 minutes going to the bathroom.


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## Tikanderoga (Sep 3, 2010)

LadyJ said:


> we'd all be forced to drink insane amounts of water before we were permitted to sleep!


That's definitely the best prevention against hangover.
The guys were looking a bit strange at me at my buck's night, when after god knows how many drinks I started to drink water instead of alcoholic beverages - but I had no hangover the next day.


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## vrhq08 (Sep 4, 2010)

Welcome to Enlightened Cuisine


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## holden08 (Sep 5, 2010)

no my mate works at a abbators they walk down a narrow lane thing and a thing comes up from below and lifts them up from under belly and there head goes between something and a bolt comes down through the head


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 5, 2010)

mmmm..... eggs 

A friend and I were discussing last night the environmental conundrum of being vegetarian... If everyone was veggo, world would be screwed. If we keep producing mass amounts of commercial meat, world is screwed. So those of us that like spinach, pop-eye on! Those who like a good juicy bit of cow or roo or lamb, please, masticate on my behalf. We're all providing balance for the planet, and should get together for a BBQ


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## slim6y (Sep 5, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> mmmm..... eggs
> 
> A friend and I were discussing last night the environmental conundrum of being vegetarian... If everyone was veggo, world would be screwed. If we keep producing mass amounts of commercial meat, world is screwed. So those of us that like spinach, pop-eye on! Those who like a good juicy bit of cow or roo or lamb, please, masticate on my behalf. We're all providing balance for the planet, and should get together for a BBQ


 
Or you could just leave the dark side and come back to the good side... eating a balance of fruit, veges and meat... 



hehe...

I actually do wonder statistically if vegoism actually does sustain or damage the planet - I am guessing the vego side will say save (just like Darth Vader - join the dark side and you'll be saved....) and an omnivore would say we're saving the planet (we have the other Skywalkers on our side... and R2D2 and a sexually confused robot too...).

Actually... I think the sexually confused robot would go for any side....


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## Wally (Sep 5, 2010)

We may well all be participating in the next mass extinction event anyway so eat up I say, whatever takes your fancy.


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## tasha00 (Sep 6, 2010)

slim6y said:


> You'll need to avoid both beer and wine - both use animal products...
> 
> not to mention lollies with gelatine, sour cream, dairy products etc etc...
> 
> ...


 What animal products are used in beer and wine ?


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## slim6y (Sep 6, 2010)

tasha00 said:


> What animal products are used in beer and wine ?


 
Normally fish bones as the 'carbon' filter... 

I was a disbeliever at one stage, but my vegan mate taught me different... I did see some evidence of this too... 

This of course led me to give up drinking... 

It was the worst 20 minutes of my life....

SORRY... I got it wrong... it was 18 minutes and not fish bones... but isinglass... Look it up


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