# Jag/Albino carry-on



## Crazy_Snake08 (Oct 1, 2008)

Hey everyone,

I jsut finsished the thread on Jag's sounds interesting. I thought I would post something similar and that is, does anyone in Australia breed Albino's for designs/colours/patterns? Since they've just come readiily affordable, I'm imagining no one has really started with this endeavour...but I wouldn't know, that's why I want others opinions. Any pic's would be cool too!!

-settle


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## notechistiger (Oct 1, 2008)

CrazySnake08 said:


> breed Albino's for designs/colours/patterns?


 
Albinoism is a mutation where the black pigment melamin is lacking. Because of this, you're not going to get different colours, designs or patterns.


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## Australis (Oct 1, 2008)

Yes, theres people with designer albino projects, for specific
colour and pattern combos in Albino Carpets.

Not a great deal you can do with patternless species like
olives though.

When Albino Womas (if rumors hold true) and spotted
pythons begin to surface, there'll be designer projects
for these species also.


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## Crazy_Snake08 (Oct 1, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Albinoism is a mutation where the black pigment melamin is lacking. Because of this, you're not going to get different colours, designs or patterns.


 
could you get different designs/patterns based on their general yellow/white/citrus-like colouring though???


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## waruikazi (Oct 1, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Albinoism is a mutation where the black pigment melamin is lacking. Because of this, you're not going to get different colours, designs or patterns.



Yes you are. You can still breed for any pattern and colouring you like so long as it is not black. I've seen darwins that were almost entirely yellow to some that were green/yellow and red. Some exciting opportunities there.


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## Crazy_Snake08 (Oct 1, 2008)

Australis said:


> Yes, theres people with designer albino projects, for specific
> colour and pattern combos in Albino Carpets.


 
would they be on the market? And if so, would they be much more expensive than just a "standard" albino carpet?


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## Crazy_Snake08 (Oct 1, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> darwins that were almost entirely yellow to some that were green/yellow and red.


 
would this be a project of "selective breeding" or would it be genetic and chance?


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## notechistiger (Oct 1, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> Yes you are. You can still breed for any pattern and colouring you like so long as it is not black. I've seen darwins that were almost entirely yellow to some that were green/yellow and red. Some exciting opportunities there.


 
I stand corrected.


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 1, 2008)

my 2 ,2yo albinos are opposites in colour.the male has intensly bright fluro oranges and yellows where the female is very pale with very few coloured bands.i cant wait to see what they will produce.


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## zobo (Oct 1, 2008)

albino x axanthic = snow
albino x stripes
albino x reduced patterns

there will be a few different things in the future but you are looking at several generations which means at least 5-6 years.
jas


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## waruikazi (Oct 2, 2008)

Crazy_Snake08 said:


> would this be a project of "selective breeding" or would it be genetic and chance?



The ones i have seen that had the reds etc were among the first that Simon Stone released so right now it was just chance, but you gotta start somewhere.


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2008)

zobo said:


> albino x axanthic = snow
> albino x stripes
> albino x reduced patterns
> 
> ...



the albino x axanthic would be interesting and expect this one to happen rather soon, only issue is is that it would be a hybrid. hows peoples takes on this? who would be interested in buying one if it was a varigatax mcdowelli??


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## waruikazi (Oct 2, 2008)

Jason said:


> the albino x axanthic would be interesting and expect this one to happen rather soon, only issue is is that it would be a hybrid. hows peoples takes on this? who would be interested in buying one if it was a varigatax mcdowelli??



Designer snakes are the thing of the future. In the next 10-20 years people will own snakes like they own goldfish or corn snakes in the US. No one will care what they are just what they look like. I say more power to the designs.


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2008)

i understand that it will happen, i know its happening now, i find it rather ironic that people are some what starting to except hybrids abit more. personally i prefer to keep it pure but as said id also buy for looks as long as i new what it was. for now ill stay with me pure and local animals there is enough to keep me occupied there.


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## BROWNS (Oct 2, 2008)

There's plenty of potential for different morphs without the need to cross them.As mentioned you have striped darwins,possibly ghost darwins,melanistic darwins,hypo darwins.I got a very very dark female Darwin from Matt Bonnet to put my male albino over who has very very light colouring opposed to the bright fluro types and am hoping eventually they will produce very reduced yellow or high white albinos.That's a long term project and I'm hoping to get albinos next season fingers crossed.

Maybe someone will have axanthic darwins without even knowing it but I'm quite sure many people are or have already crossed sub species and it's bound to happen more and more which is a shame as some will be hard to tell if pure darwins or not ???


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Oct 2, 2008)

I think it's a huge step forward. I think this is the first time I have seen the "hybrid" word mentioned, and the discussion has stayed civil. Pure is wonderful, and I love the pure lines, but some of the crosses/hybrids can be stunning. As long as I knew what I was getting, I would buy one. I think it boils down to honesty of the seller. A good portion of people that own reptiles, do so because they want a pet. And when buying a "pet".. they want a pretty one.
*Snows *may mean crossing different subspecies... but hey.. I'd buy one!


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## notechistiger (Oct 2, 2008)

I think the honest ones are the ones that actually tell you that it's a cross.


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## caustichumor (Oct 2, 2008)

I am waiting to see the ghost line of darwins to get amelanistic....


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Oct 2, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> I think the honest ones are the ones that actually tell you that it's a cross.


 
That's exactly what I mean. Buying a cross does not bother me, as long as I KNOW that I'm buying one.


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## Christopher (Oct 31, 2008)

Was just looking through old threads and came across this one that I found particularly interesting.

I'd love to know how many people out there are actually in the process of working on different morphs with the albino darwins. I guess many would be keeping their projects secret but thought I'd ask anyway.

I was wondering about the hypermelanistic darwin that snake ranch has? Would that have any morph potential if introduced to the albino line or would it just have a similar outcome to an axanthic albino cross, or no difference to normal albinos? 

Has anyone produced ghost darwin hets, or even ghost albinos? Could someone enlighten me as to the genetics/characteristics of the ghosts?

Sorry for all the questions! it just seems that this going to be a major area of focus for breeders in the future. I'm also interested in purchasing some albinos so thought I'd get an understanding of whats out there.

Cheers
Chris


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Oct 31, 2008)

As I was discussing with Jungle_freak last night, hyper darwin x albino darwin would be an incredibly exciting prospect. The black in albinos appears to come across as a lavender/ pink. So theoretically a hyper x albino should produce a full lavender/pink snake. 

Exciting times ahead I think!

I'm interested to see these green or red albinos? Any pics?


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## Christopher (Oct 31, 2008)

A full lavender darwin would be epic!


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## NCHERPS (Oct 31, 2008)

zobo said:


> albino x axanthic = snow
> albino x stripes
> albino x reduced patterns
> 
> ...



Just to be picky and correct you slightly, albino x axanthic won't equal snow until you then breed the offspring to each other, these double hets will then produce snow. 

But your right it will eventually get there, I am sure that they will produce snow in Europe or the US way before we do here, so it will be interesting to see their results and the price tag:lol:

I should imagine that snow BHP's won't be far off either.

Cheers Neil


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## krefft (Oct 31, 2008)

Yes Grumpy, I'm with you. It's good to see the "H" subject being discussed like adults. I've read so many of the threads in the past and not bothered to comment. Trying to shoot someone down who holds a different view to you seems kind of pointless. If you don't like hybrids you won't cross them and you won't buy them. If you do, you will. The key is those who do be honest about it. I'm sure there will still be plenty of buyers out there. The Darwin line though is very exciting. It's got more potential than anything, and I'm sure this year will see a whole lot more morphs produced. Just look at those animals some girl got through the 20/20 deal...She posted pics a few weeks back


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## the.badger (Oct 31, 2008)

krefft said:


> Just look at those animals some girl got through the 20/20 deal...She posted pics a few weeks back



Could you link us?


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## krefft (Oct 31, 2008)

Oops, sorry Jay..Could have sworn it was a girl who had them. Great score though
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/significant-change-in-darwin-colour-92820


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## coz666 (Oct 31, 2008)

forced evolution , is done, but never talked about until someone produces a stunner. imagine 20 yrs from now, our kids will be laughing at us


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## zobo (Oct 31, 2008)

NCHERPS said:


> Just to be picky and correct you slightly, albino x axanthic won't equal snow until you then breed the offspring to each other, these double hets will then produce snow.
> 
> But your right it will eventually get there, I am sure that they will produce snow in Europe or the US way before we do here, so it will be interesting to see their results and the price tag:lol:
> 
> ...



Neil,
I know what you mean. Same can be said for combining almost all morphs, as the 'double hets' would have to be bred together to get a fairly low percentage of animals displaying both traits.
jas


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## craigryan (Nov 1, 2008)

i know someone who has crossed their Albino Darwin Female with a bright Yellow Jag male, can't wait to see the offspring! What do you think the Hets bred togeather will achieve?


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## junglepython2 (Nov 1, 2008)

craigryan said:


> i know someone who has crossed their Albino Darwin Female with a bright Yellow Jag male, can't wait to see the offspring! What do you think the Hets bred togeather will achieve?


 
In Aus or overseas? There are no legal jags here.


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## craigryan (Nov 1, 2008)

In Aus, they are the Genuine Jag morph. 
So what do you think the Het Jag Albino breeding will produce?? What do you think they should sell for?


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## junglepython2 (Nov 1, 2008)

craigryan said:


> In Aus, they are the Genuine Jag morph.
> So what do you think the Het Jag Albino breeding will produce?? What do you think they should sell for?


 
Should be interesting to see what they go for as they would be illegal

They would look good though.


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## craigryan (Nov 1, 2008)

What is illegal about them? They are from Australian carpet python genetics.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 1, 2008)

craigryan said:


> What is illegal about them? They are from Australian carpet python genetics.


 
The morph originated overseas, so any true jags here have been smuggled or are from smuggled parents. The look a like jags here aren't true jags and wouldn't be Hets anyway.


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## Australis (Nov 1, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> Designer snakes are the thing of the future. In the next 10-20 years people will own snakes like they own goldfish or corn snakes in the US. No one will care what they are just what they look like. I say more power to the designs.



Theres definitely people in the US who care and collect pure locality forms of Corn snake
just a minority compared to those interested in morphs with no regard to purity. Theres also
probably some locale specific morphs available.


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## NCHERPS (Nov 1, 2008)

craigryan said:


> What is illegal about them? They are from Australian carpet python genetics.



Well firstly they would be illegal imports or their progeny and secondly they might not be full blood australian carpets as there are several that believe that the original Jags were produced from a McDowelli X Variegata(Irian Jaya) breeding.


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## krefft (Nov 1, 2008)

It'll be just like the Chondros. Only a very small % are actually Native. It didn't stop everyone lineing up tp buy them though. If anyone does actually have Jags they'll be passed off as locals, and I'm sure there will be plenty of takers.


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## paul4 (Nov 1, 2008)

craigryan said:


> In Aus, they are the Genuine Jag morph.
> So what do you think the Het Jag Albino breeding will produce?? What do you think they should sell for?



Sounds interesting Craig. As to the breeding of the Jag X Albino , obviously the result would be het albino babies that are Darwin X Coastal? with 50% on average of the clutch being Jags themselves .That is pretty obvious but the interesting breeding would be when the hatchlings that are Jag/het albino and then crossed with its fellow siblings, wether they are JAG het to ALBINO X Just one of the normal coloured sibling hets and also the JAG het ALBINO X JAG het ALBINO.
Now that would be very interesting.
Probably the next big thing i would imagine. 
Would be good to here from somebody who knows a little bit more about the genetics but i would be keen on some of those little gems depending on price ?? 
Pm'd you Craig
Who Knows whats next but very exciting future ahead here in Australia i think.
Paul


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 1, 2008)

If they're true Jags then Jag x Jag, het or not would result in dead offspring. However a Jag/het x normal sib/het would be interesteing to see. Would be very interesting to see albino jags with some of the different coloured jags etc.


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## paul4 (Nov 1, 2008)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> If they're true Jags then Jag x Jag, het or not would result in dead offspring. However a Jag/het x normal sib/het would be interesteing to see. Would be very interesting to see albino jags with some of the different coloured jags etc.



Well i dont believe that to be entiely true reg the breeding of Jag X Jag with all offspring not surviving..
If i do remember correctly , when 2 Jags are bred to each other you get a variety in the clutch with normal animals making 25% of the clutch , JAGS making up 50% and super Jags making up the remainder 25% but no super Jags have survived to date is what i remember but i could be mistaken.

Paul


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 1, 2008)

paul4 said:


> Well i dont believe that to be entiely true reg the breeding of Jag X Jag with all offspring not surviving..
> If i do remember correctly , when 2 Jags are bred to each other you get a variety in the clutch with normal animals making 25% of the clutch , JAGS making up 50% and super Jags making up the remainder 25% but no super Jags have survived to date is what i remember but i could be mistaken.
> 
> Paul



Sorry that could be it. I can't remember exactly. Not worth it IMO anyway. Superjags I know won't survive, so you're not getting anything you wouldn't from jag x sib.


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## paul4 (Nov 3, 2008)

So does anyone actually know the possible result from this breeding and what sort of money they would fetch?
Paul


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## junglepython2 (Nov 3, 2008)

You would get albino jags, when the siblings are bred back to each other...........


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## hardcorey007 (Nov 7, 2008)

Can you post pics of the Jag that this other person has???



craigryan said:


> i know someone who has crossed their Albino Darwin Female with a bright Yellow Jag male, can't wait to see the offspring! What do you think the Hets bred togeather will achieve?


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## paul4 (Nov 7, 2008)

Come on Craig
Show us some pics buddy???


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## craigryan (Nov 10, 2008)

I will look into getting some photo's.


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## hardcorey007 (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks.


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## paul4 (Nov 13, 2008)

come on buddy we would like to see some pics mate.
It never happened otherwise...


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## Crazy_Snake08 (Nov 13, 2008)

Interesting to see that my thread has come up again.



Settle


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## hardcorey007 (Nov 18, 2008)

Any pics yet???


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## craigryan (Dec 16, 2008)

Finally got some photo's of these carpets from my friend who lives out of town, thought i would share them with you guys. You can be the Judge of them, I like them. Do you?


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## Gecko :) (Dec 16, 2008)

Craig,. They are stunning!, 
If they are not Australian Jags,... What is?


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## ad (Dec 16, 2008)

hehehe onya Craig 

Your mate has done a great job in emulating Jags, fooled me that they arent Jags and are just plain old coastals he has line bred


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## mistymtn (Dec 16, 2008)

They are stunning, especially the 2nd pic..WOW.
So are they just pure costals? No crosses.
Definatly the best i have seen in Australia...

Cheers


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## tomcat88 (Dec 16, 2008)

ad said:


> hehehe onya Craig
> 
> Your mate has done a great job in emulating Jags, fooled me that they arent Jags and are just plain old coastals he has line bred


 

well if they are just coastals sign me up for a pair because they look identical to authentic american/uk/wherever jags!! how do you know they aren't jags?


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## ad (Dec 16, 2008)

lol Tomcat - I was being sarcastic, I doubt they were bred in Australia,
Would be happy to be proven wrong of course :lol:


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## Jason (Dec 16, 2008)

ad said:


> lol Tomcat - I was being sarcastic, I doubt they were bred in Australia,
> Would be happy to be proven wrong of course :lol:



im with yu. they arent native. prove me wrong, but very unlikely. if they are actually animals that are in australia which i dont doubt they have been brought in. As for what jags are worth in australia, $2500 for males and $200 for females is what i have been offered, the guy never came threw so it could have been stories. either way i have heard from some very well respected keepers that there are actually a few people keeping and this season breeding them in sydney... i guess we will find out soon, i reccon they'll be everywhere in a coupld of years.


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## Retic (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm with you Jason, they are very clearly REAL Jags and therefore technically illegal not that it will make much difference to the people buying them. They are stunning looking animals and a few generations ahead of any 'native' jaggish animals so they will be much in demand.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

ad said:


> lol Tomcat - I was being sarcastic, I doubt they were bred in Australia,
> Would be happy to be proven wrong of course :lol:



If they mate and lay in Australia their progeny is Australian. If the progeny are on licence then my understanding is that they are legal. All this talk about progeny bred from overseas animals being illegal is rubbish. If an animal is sold on licence its legal. You cant be expected to trace back linage to see if or when the grand parents or great grandparents were smuggled. Stop crying over spilt milk and move on. Jags are here just as non Aussie locality GTPs. Somewhere in the distant past the rules may have been broken as with most other foundation animals which were stolen from the wilds of Australia. Even many of those legalised in the amnesty were originally stolen illegally from the wild. We are fortunate to have such diverse genetics to work with so lets use them instead of squabbling about where they came from.


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## Retic (Dec 17, 2008)

I agree, like I said they are technically illegal as they would be the offspring of illegal animals. Of course they are no different to the overwhelming majority of GTP's here and no-one seems to lose much sleep over them.


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## paul4 (Dec 17, 2008)

MATE!!! Thet are bloody gorgeous looking animals
I am excited to see something like that being bred here in Aus.
Sign me up for a pair of the offspring if they are availaable any day of the week mate
Looking forward to seeing some of the offspring pics
Paul


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

boa said:


> I agree, like I said they are technically illegal as they would be the offspring of illegal animals. Of course they are no different to the overwhelming majority of GTP's here and no-one seems to lose much sleep over them.



What about the progeny of all the locality animals which continue to emerge.The parents of locality animals, by definition, have been taken from the wild. Whilst there is a chance that the animals were obtained under licence it is more likely they were stolen ( or poached to use a more acceptable term) from the wild. Are you suggesting thaty the progeny of those illegallytaken parents are also illegal??


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## Retic (Dec 17, 2008)

Again, technically, yes of course they are.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

boa said:


> Again, technically, yes of course they are.



Lets start dealing with reality; so they are not. If an animal is on licence it is legal . Its linage is not relevant to wether it is legal or not at least not in NSW. You can only ask and believe the seller as to wether the animal is legal. The average mum and dad has no way of confirming that let alone the linage of the animal. Being technically correct only worries people unecessarily.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 17, 2008)

Great to see so much support for smuggling....


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## Ramsayi (Dec 17, 2008)

Why compare poached animals to animals that were smuggled in from OS? Two totally different things.

Exotic diseases should be a major concern for anyone wanting to dabble in smuggled animals and the people that do show a complete disregard for our native animals.I guess it all about lining ones pockets these days.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> Why compare poached animals to animals that were smuggled in from OS? Two totally different things.
> 
> .



From a legal point of view they are no different. They are both obtained illegally. 
I agree that smuggling does have a far greater risk from a health point of view but that is not what i was commenting on. I am pointing out the holier than thou attitute of the many keepers who openly claim to have locality animals from illegally poached animals.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> Great to see so much support for smuggling....



Where is there support for smuggling?


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## Scleropages (Dec 17, 2008)

Why is it "true" jags always look like they have a jungle's head shape?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 17, 2008)

wokka said:


> Where is there support for smuggling?


 

Unless importation is legalised, anyone supporting Jags in Aus is supporting smuggling, whether directly or not. If there wasn't the market they wouldn't be smuggled.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> Unless importation is legalised, anyone supporting Jags in Aus is supporting smuggling, whether directly or not. If there wasn't the market they wouldn't be smuggled.



Agreed; but as far as I am aware Jags are here in significant numbers as are their progeny so you are fighting an unwinnable battle. I dont know if all Jags must have originated from overseas, although if I believe everything I read on the forums that would seem to be the case. It does seem strange that genetics from Australia go overseas and breed to produce Jags, but it is apparently not possible for those same Australian genetics to breed Jags in Australia.


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## hardcorey007 (Dec 17, 2008)

Thanks for posting the pics. There are amazing looking snakes.


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## Jason (Dec 17, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> Unless importation is legalised, anyone supporting Jags in Aus is supporting smuggling, whether directly or not. If there wasn't the market they wouldn't be smuggled.



same should be said for anyone buying non native greens then.....

either way jags are here to stay and they will DEFINATELY become a MAJOR part of the hobby in the very near future, they will be crossed etc and i hope people sell them for what they are (which im very sure they will). if i breed them then i do agree that the sibs should be frozen otherwise just more crossed mungrels entering the hobby. jungle jags are still imo the best looking carpets around!


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## ihaveherps (Dec 17, 2008)

wokka said:


> It does seem strange that genetics from Australia go overseas and breed to produce Jags, but it is apparently not possible for those same Australian genetics to breed Jags in Australia.



Not strange at all..... the creation of the founder Jag had sweet stuff all with inheritable genetics from its parents and everything to do with a spontaneous mutation.... 

Wokka, to think that NPWS wouldnt act when the Jags surface is a toss of a coin.... the sheer odds against the exact spontaneous mutation happening again here is astronomical, so it could be assumed that they are from imported stock, and a paper chase could easily begin... someone would have to get caught out, and entire collections go under the microscope. If they dont act, they are almost condoning smuggling, and forgery of books.... I personally expect them to pick out someone and make an example of them.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

ihaveherps said:


> Not strange at all..... the creation of the founder Jag had sweet stuff all with inheritable genetics from its parents and everything to do with a spontaneous mutation....
> 
> Whats that mean?


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## ihaveherps (Dec 17, 2008)

I dont really know how to put it simply..... umm.... sort of like Downes Syndrome for ease.... neither parent actually carries the gene, though in early embrionic development even fertilisation an error occurs, and in downes syndrome if I remember correctly the thirteenth allele is affected, there is either an extra copy of the 13th allele or one is missing ( so either 3 copies or one copy instead of the normal two.... sorry for not being positive, though I couldnt be asked to varify for the sake of an example). Anyway, its not a condition that the parents carry, just a freak occurance during development. Now I bet that in your head your ticking over that there are alot of people with Downes Syndrome out there.... its an example, and by no means a perfect one.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

ihaveherps said:


> I dont really know how to put it simply..... umm.... sort of like Downes Syndrome for ease.... neither parent actually carries the gene, though in early embrionic development even fertilisation an error occurs, and in downes syndrome if I remember correctly the thirteenth allele is affected, there is either an extra copy of the 13th allele or one is missing ( so either 3 copies or one copy instead of the normal two.... sorry for not being positive, though I couldnt be asked to varify for the sake of an example). Anyway, its not a condition that the parents carry, just a freak occurance during development. Now I bet that in your head your ticking over that there are alot of people with Downes Syndrome out there.... its an example, and by no means a perfect one.



So its a random event that may occur next mating or not for another million matings?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 17, 2008)

Down's syndrome is a duplication of the 21st chromosone which can occur readily during meiosis. That's why there are plenty of people with Down's syndrome.

The Jag mutation isn't of this type and chance of it spontaneously occuring identically twice are astronomical. And as Ihaveherps said it would have bugger all to do with the parents genetics.


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## wokka (Dec 17, 2008)

ihaveherps said:


> Wokka, to think that NPWS wouldnt act when the Jags surface is a toss of a coin.... the sheer odds against the exact spontaneous mutation happening again here is astronomical, so it could be assumed that they are from imported stock, and a paper chase could easily begin... someone would have to get caught out, and entire collections go under the microscope. If they dont act, they are almost condoning smuggling, and forgery of books.... I personally expect them to pick out someone and make an example of them.



I have heard it said by NPWS staff that one of their principle tasks of legislation is to prevent unauthorised removal of reptiles from the wild. With this in mind I think it far more likely they would target new localities emerging from NSW. Smuggling is more the domaun of the federal police. I dont see either of them as the enemy and doubt that they would want to make an example of someone who accidently ends up with overseas bloodlines. I am not sure that ,even if it could be proven that legally obtained progeny came from smuggled parents, that having those progeny would be an offense. What good would shutting the gate after the horse has bolted be. It would mearly drive it underground.
Just for the record, and to save any futher pms from the closet readers, I dont have any jags. I am mearly playing devils advocate.


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## Gnome73 (Dec 31, 2008)

ok .. regards jags pails 4 scales has got some "Cardwel Jungles" at the moment that look jagish to me what do peaple think of them?????


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## hardcorey007 (Jan 13, 2009)

Gnome73 said:


> ok .. regards jags pails 4 scales has got some "Cardwel Jungles" at the moment that look jagish to me what do peaple think of them?????


 
Are you talking about the photos they have up under the photo album that are for sale? If these are the one I'd say they don't look anything like Jags


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