# John Howard new laws



## Tetras (Jun 26, 2007)

Hey everyone.
What do you all think about John Howards new laws to do with the aboriginal remote communities in NT?

Do u think that he is sincer about helping or is he just trying to get on the good side of the people for the up coming election?

Do you think that there is an underlying racism about this? or is it just for the benefit of the people of australia regardless of nationality?


----Please Note---- _This thread is not designed to inspite racism or be a racist thread. I do not encourage racism, merely express your views on the situation.

_I will be on in the morning again. Respect to those who are still awake. Night.


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## snakes4me2 (Jun 26, 2007)

Ahh the stolen generation starts again.
I think they need to ban alcohol in some white communities too


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## dansfish4tea (Jun 26, 2007)

Tetras said:


> or is he just trying to get on the good side of the people for the up coming election?


 

spot on id say

I dnt like that john howard, if i expess how i feel bout him ill get banned for life:lol:


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## da_donkey (Jun 26, 2007)

i say go in gung ho, you cant get any worse then 5yo girls with STI's.

These people walk around town with petrol cans straped to there faces like theres nothing wrong with it. 

These people have major problems, there not gonna fix themselves.

donk


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## dansfish4tea (Jun 26, 2007)

thats rite but the problem hasbeen there for a long time and
now sudenly hes gunna fix it?
the timing seems to be jst rite


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## zobo (Jun 26, 2007)

the timing is wrong with elections et, but something needs to be done. I work in law enforcement and you would not believe the stories my fellow remote officers tell me about the communities and what goes on there. Unless you have lived/worked there it is a bit hard to comment really.
jas


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## Aussie Python Lover (Jun 26, 2007)

I cant wait til its time for someone else to get up and take (inserted nasty words here ) over his position he is a complete BUTT and it's time that he stands down....


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## falconboy (Jun 27, 2007)

I say about time. Not sure how banning porn and booze will do it unless its banned and policed well. Recently read a story, I'll try and edit this so its not too graphic, but lets just say a guy from one of these communities was pushing his grandmother down the street in her wheelchair, and said to her that he feels like, um, well, you know, so pulled her out of her chair, did it there and then on the side of the road, put her back in the chair and kept pushing her home. His GRANDMOTHER I say. I'm just speechless.


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## PremierPythons (Jun 27, 2007)

It's typical Liberal Party populism/electioneering at its best. It's got the sound of a 'Children Overboard' with the sinister undertones of a 'Stolen Generation' about it.. It's time these clowns are voted out


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## Bakes (Jun 27, 2007)

First up let me say I don't like John Howard (its a gun ban thing) BUT I can't believe you people who think this is a stunt. Currently in the NT court system is a case of 4-5 men and 4 kids that were drunk and stoned and they pack raped a 14 year old boy *7* times. This happened down south with a white girl and a pack of lebanese guys and there was an uproar! But this is barely even news worthy. Women are bashed, kids are molested by drunken men who spend all their money on booze and drugs so their familys don't eat or have to eat crap. The PM wants to, rightly, put a stop to it and some of you along with old Mal Fraiser and his band of half cast winging aborigional wannabe politicans try to misdirect the plan as a stunt to grab land! At least the PM doing something and not burying his head in the sand like the NT government.

Mal Fraiser said that there was no consultation with the elders.....news flash...the elders have no control and have been doing NOTHING! Any poor kid or woman in a community that gets sexually assulted is ostracised by that same community AND right under the noses of the "Elders"

snakes4me2 said "Ahh the stolen generation starts again" Give me a break. Come up here and have a look at these communities. Kids with STD's, malnutrition, you know a few decades ago aborigional kids whose parents worked on stations went to school and at these schools they had showers, cleaned their teeth with a tooth brush that was kept there for them and had at least one good meal. This however was seen as condesending by the do gooders and now they get bugger all. They arn't even made to go to school. My kids go to a school here in Darwin where some community kids attend and every morning the red cross puts on breakfast for them. To some of them this is their only good meal and this is a community in a city! 

A lot of kids (and adults) can't speak english. If they were imigrants everybody would be saying that they should speak english before they come into the country! go figure! Then we get told its a national disgrace that their health care is up to crap while drunken men beat up community nurses and drive them away. Or that there are no jobs, really??? could it be because they live in VERY remote areas with no industry, or that they have no education because they just don't go to school???

Someone mentioned petrol sniffing. There is a non sniffable fuel called Opel. Some communities WANTED this fuel and said if they got a bowser installed they would look after their kids better ie. bathing, eating better etc. This wasn't good enough for the do gooders down south and the program was nearly scraped. And this is what some communities wanted!

My wife worked in NT housing in Katherine a few years ago and she had a aborigional bloke and his 3 year old son come in applying for a house. This bloke had just moved to Katherine from a community. The wife said she's never seen a more beautiful and healthy look kid. His eyes were bright and clear not the yellow of most of the aborigional kids in Katherine. The father said that he moved into town to get away from the drinking and so his kids could get an education and so they would not be intimidated by white people. He said he will not let his kids eat crap only bush tucker, which is why his boy was so healthy. This bloke has my respect and admiration and you people who think someone trying to put a stop to the disgrace of child molesting is just buying votes have my utter contempt. 

So yes go in there and ban grog/porn, its about bloody time. And don't give me the line about banning grog in white communities until you've seen the effect it has on the women and children in these aborigional communities.

Whew.....I'll hop of the soapbox now....


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## Earthling (Jun 27, 2007)

Bakes said:


> First up let me say I don't like John Howard (its a gun ban thing) BUT I can't believe you people who think this is a stunt. This bloke has my respect and admiration and you people who think someone trying to put a stop to the disgrace of child molesting is just buying votes have my utter contempt.
> So yes go in there and ban grog/porn, its about bloody time. And don't give me the line about banning grog in white communities until you've seen the effect it has on the women and children in these aborigional communities.
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## Hoppa1874 (Jun 27, 2007)

I'm inclined to agree wif earthling on this one..
How dare he take that money of them in the first place.. and now that there is an election coming.. wants to give it back.. isnt that a bit two-faced.??
And not to mention how he has done nothing about the climate crisis.. and now that there is an election is sooo interested in fixing it.. he should have been interested long b4 it got this bad....


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## Bakes (Jun 27, 2007)

How can giving them more money fix anything. It hasn't in the past. And these so called men commiting these acts aren't the typical pedophiles. They are just drunk and stoned board blokes. It may not work but at least the PM has made a decision which is more than anybody else had done.


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

Hey everyone thanks for posting your thoughts.

This is a very positive thing to happen but its not really just a coincidence that its just before and election. 
sure the comunities will be policed and all that but i dont think that it will really change much after the election. people will just forget like all the other times this has happened.

I think (not sure) that he has brang in a law which their welfare is governed by theeir children goin to skool??


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## nuthn2do (Jun 27, 2007)

Bakes said:


> How can giving them more money fix anything. It hasn't in the past. And these so called men commiting these acts aren't the typical pedophiles. They are just drunk and stoned board blokes. It may not work but at least the PM has made a decision which is more than anybody else had done.


Yeah what a fool. He could have just blamed everyone else, wrapped it up tight in red tape and got set for retirement.


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## Magpie (Jun 27, 2007)

dansfish4tea said:


> thats rite but the problem hasbeen there for a long time and
> now sudenly hes gunna fix it?
> the timing seems to be jst rite


 

Pollies can't do anything until the people are ready to accept it. You'll notice that labor didn't come up with a policy to do anything about it until the libs did, then they agreed with the plan.
I'm not saying it's an ideal answer but something needs to be done. Got a better answer Earthling? Oh that's right, your answer was to throw $400 million at them and hope it goes away.
The Answer IMO is to get rid of this government sanctioned racism that diferentiates between Australian aborigines and everyone else. Apply the laws we have.


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## moosenoose (Jun 27, 2007)

Don't worry folks, John Howard is a smart man, he won't let you down  (geeez I'm a stirrer 8))


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## DNK4405 (Jun 27, 2007)

Well I can't say that I think that the timing is the best for the government to bring this up which does make some people question the motives behind it, but I think that bad timing or not, its great that at least its in the spot light for being as big a problem as it is. No matter who put an idea of a solution forward, it's never going to suit everyone, but at least now that its been thrown into the spot light then hopefully some thing can be done to try to address the HUGE problems that these women and children face on a daily basis. Some how the cycle that these communities seem to be stuck in needs to be broken.


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## darkangel (Jun 27, 2007)

something definately needs to be done. no doubt about that at all. it will take many years and alot of hard work. i'm not much of a howard fan BUT at least he is making an attempt to try and fix things. these ways may not work but by seeing the reactions of the people they should work out new things to try. it will just have to be a trial and error thing i guess. it can't be left in the 'too hard box' though especially when there are kids suffering sooo much.


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 27, 2007)

It's a hard job but someones gotta do it (at least make a start) and perhaps some of the unlightened people who have never spent any time at all amongst indigenous people (I have)
may become aware of the conditions some children/people live in 
It's heartbreaking and almost unbeleivable how some human beings exist (us white fellas are ok in our clean comfortable airconditioned homes)
I don't care for ol Johhny either but he's doing something positive and if at least one person can have a better life for his doing SO BE IT Think positively people please
Sandee


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## Kyro (Jun 27, 2007)

well the timing stinks & of course JH has votes on his mind atm but the reality is that something has to be done & he is doing it.I have lived near & seen what goes on in these communities & believe me half of you wouldn't have a clue about how bad the situation is.These people need help immediately & who the hell are we to critisice the one person that actually has the power to get in there & do something about it, even if it only causes a temporary stir it's better than nothing & could just prevent 1 child from being molested today & that would be worth it.


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## cobb (Jun 27, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> i say go in gung ho, you cant get any worse then 5yo girls with STI's.
> 
> These people walk around town with petrol cans straped to there faces like theres nothing wrong with it.
> 
> ...


 
spot on. something should have been done a long time a go.


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

Does any1 think that what Johnny is doing is racist? 
Would he do it if it was a white commmunity or even an ethnic community?


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## junglist* (Jun 27, 2007)

Bakes said:


> First up let me say I don't like John Howard (its a gun ban thing) BUT I can't believe you people who think this is a stunt. Currently in the NT court system is a case of 4-5 men and 4 kids that were drunk and stoned and they pack raped a 14 year old boy *7* times. This happened down south with a white girl and a pack of lebanese guys and there was an uproar! But this is barely even news worthy. Women are bashed, kids are molested by drunken men who spend all their money on booze and drugs so their familys don't eat or have to eat crap. The PM wants to, rightly, put a stop to it and some of you along with old Mal Fraiser and his band of half cast winging aborigional wannabe politicans try to misdirect the plan as a stunt to grab land! At least the PM doing something and not burying his head in the sand like the NT government.
> 
> Mal Fraiser said that there was no consultation with the elders.....news flash...the elders have no control and have been doing NOTHING! Any poor kid or woman in a community that gets sexually assulted is ostracised by that same community AND right under the noses of the "Elders"a
> 
> ...



Howards idea is absolutely terrible. It simply cannot work, because theres a funny hting about alcohol addictions, they kill you if you go cold turkey. Your last comment, about seeing what alcohol in aboriginal communities is laughable. The situation is NO different in white communities, its just hidden better.

You have earnt my contempt with this rant, for although there are some valid points within this legislation, it is RACIST and discriminatory. Yes, there are alcohol problems within these communities, but the problems go beyond that, Yes there are problems with sexual crimes being committed against those who cannot defend themselves, BUT THESE ARE NOT THE ONLY COMMUNITIES THESE CRIMES HAPPEN WITHIN.

The whole taking half the welfare checks - good idea, but could have been spread across the entire country, IT WOULD BE A GOOD MOVE, but it would lose howard votes, so he opts for the racist approach and goes with singling out aboriginal communities.

There havebeen so many reports, that to NOT see that this legislation is a knee jerk reaction in attempt to buy votes for the upcoming election and to deflect the public's attention away from EVERY OTHER NON-POLICY he has.. This issue is the next TAMPA crisis. If you cannot see htat, then i guess you voted for him in the last few elections, - "oh yes we know he lied to us, but we still trust him".'

This head in the sand approach will never work, and nor will instigating changes which apply only to aboriginal communities.

Many of the sex crimes which are being reported inthese communities not only happen to be perpetrated by aboriginal individuals, but by white men going in and raping kids, simply as payment for probviding a few cases of beer, or a few grams of weed.

Maybe, the cessation of prohibition, and the provision of these drugs IN A SUPERVISED fashion would make a difference.

KAVA, from the plant piper mesthiculum, has been used in a few trials in the NT WITH AMAZING RESULTS in lowering the amount of violence being perpetrated.


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## waruikazi (Jun 27, 2007)

The problem with this policy/law is that it was not developed with the input of the indigenous population and is now being thrust upon them. All this will do IMO is cause indigenous people to rebel and hold contempt towards the law makers and enforcers. This law will need the backing from the people who it is going to affect before it can have a positive affect. Before anyone says 'Why would the ped's and the abusers back this law?' of course 'they' wouldn't, but not all of the community are peds and abusers and they are the people who need to back it. 

For along time now aboriginal people have not been able and in some cases willing to own and take control of their own lives. Beleive it or not this is what needs to change before any real difference in community and long grass lifestyles are going to change in the Territory atleast and this really starts with nutrition and education for both the kids and the adults. 

Maybe this is the kind of control that needs to be taken, but unless it is backed by the communities it will do little more than have a short term affect and piss people off. I do know what i am talking about, i have been working with indigenous kids for the past 3 years and i am going out to an indigenous community in 2 months. I am not a tea tottling beaurocrat do gooder.


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

What waruikazi says is true about the commnuties. If they dont except it then what good will it do?
Once the police leave it may just go back to normal.

What about the fact that everyone is looking at how great John Howard is and how much good he is doing for the aboriginal commnutity in NT. 
But the view has now shifted away from his policy on Work Place laws. Our good old prime minister is taking away them laws so a business can fire anyone it wants much more easily. A business employing less than 200 people can fire an employee without giving a reason. Is this unfair?


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## Earthling (Jun 27, 2007)

Magpie said:


> Pollies can't do anything until the people are ready to accept it. You'll notice that labor didn't come up with a policy to do anything about it until the libs did, then they agreed with the plan.
> I'm not saying it's an ideal answer but something needs to be done. Got a better answer Earthling? Oh that's right, your answer was to throw $400 million at them and hope it goes away.
> The Answer IMO is to get rid of this government sanctioned racism that diferentiates between Australian aborigines and everyone else. Apply the laws we have.


 
I wonder if you will ever agree with something I say magpie? Somehow I doubt it.

Ahem.....Labor did not initially come up with a plan period as far as I can see, apart from a plan of initially agreeing with John. The only reason Liberals came up witha plan is that a report came out about the abuse........or am I wrong and in the past the Australian people accepted pedophilia? But last week they changed their mind? So the Governemnt is going to do something about it.....Mmmmmmmmmm........

Regarding your statement that my answer is throw $400 000 000 and hope it goes away....where did you read that in my argument? I cant see it. Please show me.

Me?.....Do I have a better answer? Yes. Talk to the Aboriginal Communities, talk to phsychologists and Welfare people who have a specialisation in Aboriginal communities and their issues. Talk and talk some more. Then make a plan that has the support of the Aboriginal Community and Phycologists and put the plan into action. Something that will work. Even better soemthing that has been proven to work in similiar communities. Not something that will appease the masses just before an election, but something that will work. This will however need money and Government support throughout the phase. Also an issue such as this will take generations to fix. No quick fix. Pedophilia is a generational change.

As to your answer I would say it has merits however its fataly flawed. To disregard the affect of what we as a nation have done to the Aboriginal Communities and what we have allowed to happen in those Aboriginal Communities is something that would just further our estrangement from the Aboriginal population. We must acept that what has happened in the past has at times been wrong and the negative effect on the Aboriginal Population must be noted and accepted. To treat Aboriginal communites differently is to accept that they have different issues then 'white' communities as of their past and culture. It is not about Government Sanctioned racism but its about realism. Acceptance. Or do you think every community is the same? I hope not.


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## moosenoose (Jun 27, 2007)

This debate is stupid, this sort of thing has been going on since my grandfather was a young man, and he’s now 98. He used to work tirelessly in trying to help communities such as these and he himself has finally come to the realization that it’s an uphill battle and we’ve lost it ever since it started. Tribal law is about the only thing these people respect, and that’s fair enough as far as I’m concerned, let the elders make the rules that these people should live by! 

We constantly supply these communities with housing, and they burn it down, we supply them money and they spend it on grog, and eventually their kids grow up and then put their hands out because they say that their parents should have never been given the money in the first place as they were too irresponsible (it’s the same deal happening in recent times with the NZ Maoris). 

So in hindsight, our intervention appears to have done more damage than good. This attempted harnessing of the Aboriginal people has been going on for decades and decades and decades and it has never fully worked…why? Apart from scenarios like the Stolen Generation and the fact they still consider us invaders...... vast numbers despise us, alcohol has wrecked many of these communities and this contributes to more finger pointing. Personally I think they should be given as much land as possible with a big fence around it and massive signs erected at every entrance saying “Whitey Keep Out”…let them sort out their own affairs and continue living how they once did… they have an option, like everybody does, I’m all for specially funded schooling and programs, medical facilities and health care but that is probably where it should stop...there…problem solved 8)


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## Earthling (Jun 27, 2007)

Here Here Waruikaza!

Junglist you always have some good comments and thoughts.


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## waruikazi (Jun 27, 2007)

But that $400 000 000 would go an awful long way to help solve alot of issues in indigenous communities. I have seen so many NT laws pass that are little more than quick fixes to bring in some votes. None of them have had any long term effect, i can not see how this new law could. 

What the hell do they expect the army to do? I mean seriously what could the army possibly do that will have a positive long term ecffect on the communities?


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

Clearly years of pouring cash into these communitys has been like pouring water in the desert.
Its all soaked up and no result. If aboriginal people cannot, or will not, live the whitemans way, and up to the standards of the culture, then they should revert to their original culture and live as they have for thousands of years.
The half white , alcoholic, fuel sniffing, no respect for anyone including themselves way must end.
purebreds, whats left of them, are decent, proud people, who retain their culture and their self respect.
white man has interferred enough with them, no more! Either be aboriginal, or be Australian,
these slum people are neither. Any aboriginal leaders worth their weight would agree and encourage youngsters one way or another.
these slums should be cleared out and burnt to the ground, the people made to choose!


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## Earthling (Jun 27, 2007)

The army could shoot them and then their would be no problem! Hey it worked for a while in brazil with the homeless..........


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

How many cathy freemans and Ernie dingos are there? $$$ hasnt bought that! for 200 yrs!
If there are genuine freeman/dingo wannabes, then provide the $$ for them, no druggys, no alcos, no layabouts. 
you cant force people to help themselves, its a mentality! a victim mentality and the white gov is to blame. help those who will be genuine only.
I agree with magpie, no more bias, one law for all, or go live in the scrub!



> The army could shoot them and then their would be no problem! Hey it worked for a while in brazil with the homeless..........


 
I beleive we already tried that! brush up on history.


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## -Peter (Jun 27, 2007)

What new laws? There are no new laws? Nothing has been passed by parliament. Its all being done under existing legislation.


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## Earthling (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> I beleive we already tried that! brush up on history.


 
Ummmmmm...it was a joke.............yes a bad one..but still a joke.


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## rodentrancher (Jun 27, 2007)

And then there is the condition of our poor Murray River! I just cannot believe how many new vineyard and horticultural plantings have been allowed to go ahead over the last 5 years or more. The government already knew that we were in a drought situation and they are still giving out water licenses! Grrrrrrr!!!!


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> Ummmmmm...it was a joke.............yes a bad one..but still a joke.


 
likewise!


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

I call it racism.

Someone supply statistics to show child abuse in aboriginal communities is A LOT higher than in white communities.

The reason it is racist is because ONLY indigenous communities are targeted, if all communities with issues with alcoholism and child abuse were being targeted then it wouldn't be discrimination.


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## nuthn2do (Jun 27, 2007)

Midol said:


> I call it racism.
> 
> Someone supply statistics to show child abuse in aboriginal communities is A LOT higher than in white communities.
> 
> The reason it is racist is because ONLY indigenous communities are targeted, if all communities with issues with alcoholism and child abuse were being targeted then it wouldn't be discrimination.


It's the elders and community leaders calling for intervention, how is that racist?


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> Someone supply statistics to show child abuse in aboriginal communities is A LOT higher than in white communities.


 
why should it be higher? should it be addressed ONLY if its higher?
imo DOCS (any welfare agency) have alot to answer for in any community, very very poor record)


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

dansfish4tea said:


> thats rite but the problem hasbeen there for a long time and
> now sudenly hes gunna fix it?
> the timing seems to be jst rite



Who cares about timing? ALL politicians pull stunts before elections- why should this election be any different.

How would you feel to be a woman in that community? How would you feel if that was your daughter or son being violated.

Didn't anyone hear the Aboriginal Leader today ripping into people bagging out Howard's move on this. Media were screaming for something to be done.....some one has attempted to fix it now there screaming about his attempt. No one else has put an idea forward on to how to help that community. Should've been done sooner but better now than later. 

Simone.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> why should it be higher? should it be addressed ONLY if its higher?
> imo DOCS (any welfare agency) have alot to answer for in any community, very very poor record)



If it isn't higher why are non aborigine communities not facing the same restrictions, the banning of alcohol and x-rated porn?

It's racist


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> Who cares about timing? ALL politicians pull stunts before elections- why should this election be any different.
> 
> How would you feel to be a woman in that community? How would you feel if that was your daughter or son being violated.
> 
> ...



Ohhh. Removing alcohol and porn from alcohols will greatly improve the situation....

It makes a whole load of sense... You obviously don't know any alcoholics.


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

Midol said:


> Ohhh. Removing alcohol and porn from alcohols will greatly improve the situation....
> 
> It makes a whole load of sense... You obviously don't know any alcoholics.



Yeah i do- i lived with one. His family tried everything accept the forceable removal of alcohol. At least its a start.

Are you addicted to calling people racists? Because nobody has said anything or done anything remotely racist.

Simone.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> If it isn't higher why are non aborigine communities not facing the same restrictions, the banning of alcohol and x-rated porn?
> 
> It's racist


 
good questions, re the porn, i have no idea, maybe fred nile is behind it, or arch bishop pell???makes little sense.
re alcohol prohibition, its to be seen to "do something" pre-election imo. As far as the wider Australian public is concerned, itll never happen because alcohol tax is big $$$. Simple!


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## junglist* (Jun 27, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> Yeah i do- i lived with one. His family tried everything accept the forceable removal of alcohol. At least its a start.
> 
> Are you addicted to calling people racists? Because nobody has said anything or done anything remotely racist.
> 
> Simone.



Except for the entire thrust of the legislative effort to remove alcohol and pron from these communities. There is NO similar effort in non-indigenous communities. Therefore, this policy can quite clearly be labeled a racially discriminatory policy, aka racist.

The motivation behind the effort is to be commended, EXCEPT for the fact that the problem has been known for such a long time now, that to see anything in it except for politically motivated point scoring is naive and willfully blind.

Does noone realise that the forced removal of alcohol WILL NOT WORK??? prohibition has not worked anywhere in the world to date, SO WHY WOULD IT WORK NOW???


Kava has been used in NT communities as a replacement to the alcohol, and while you cannot stop people choosing to be drug addicted, the violence rates in these communities have dropped so dramatically, that although the rates of substance addictions till remain high, the levels of addiction related violence have dropped to nearly non-existant levels.

Alcohol is a drug which, to the extent of our knowledge, is one of the ONLY drugs which for an addict to go cold turkey from IS 100% lethal. The brain cannot handle it, it is not a psychological issue, but a physiological issue, A drunk going cold turkey will DIE.

Howard's a clever political operator, but this policy is so transparent, that not only will it have about -45% chance of actually succeeding, (approximate only, rate the fact that howard obviously care's about nothing but being seen to do something, irrespective of its chance of success, and the fact that prohibition has had a 0% effective rate across the globe with every single substance which has ever been prohibited) chance of actually succeeding,


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

A racist will always deny being racist johnbowemonie, I don't expect you to see you are being racist.

When white men first came to Australia and treated aboriginals poorly they thought they were right and it wasn't racist as well...


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

Midol said:


> A racist will always deny being racist johnbowemonie, I don't expect you to see you are being racist.
> 
> When white men first came to Australia and treated aboriginals poorly they thought they were right and it wasn't racist as well...



hahahaha They should consider themselves they have breed left- if the French or other races landed here there would be no black fellas left.

Where did i say anything racist Midol. You would no a racist if one insulted you. All is aid was that at least the Government is trying something. You really are a narrow minded little tosser aren't you?

Simone.


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## nuthn2do (Jun 27, 2007)

junglist* said:


> Alcohol is a drug which, to the extent of our knowledge, is one of the ONLY drugs which for an addict to go cold turkey from IS 100% lethal. The brain cannot handle it, it is not a psychological issue, but a physiological issue, A drunk going cold turkey will DIE.


Hear this on the news? :lol: It can be dangerous agreed, but far from 100% lethal


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> hahahaha They should consider themselves they have breed left- if the French or other races landed here there would be no black fellas left.
> 
> Where did i say anything racist Midol. You would no a racist if one insulted you. All is aid was that at least the Government is trying something. You really are a narrow minded little tosser aren't you?
> 
> Simone.



Errr... No idea what you were trying to say in your first line but if you are trying to say aboriginals are lucky that we invaded then you're a worry. How old are you?

Scenario 1: All NT aboriginal communities have alcohol and porn banned due to child abuse problems.
Scenario 2: All communities in the NT with child abuse problems have alcohol and porn banned due to child abuse problems.

Child abuse is not more prevelent in aboriginal communities than other white communities (in low socio-economic areas). These rules target, prejiduce, based on race. Scenario 1 is racist. Scenario 2 is not.

Not to mention it won't work.


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

Midol said:


> Errr... No idea what you were trying to say in your first line but if you are trying to say aboriginals are lucky that we invaded then you're a worry.
> 
> .



Firstly how old are you? Secondly history has shown every country has been invaded by somone, New Zealand, England, Asia, South America etc. AND alot of these countries that were invaded had their original inhabitants wiped out- that didn't happen here. They still have a culture they can cling to etc. This country was settled over 200 years ago. Get over it!
While your bitching about these laws- what are your alternatives? 

Simone.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

Imo crying "racism" is what got us to this point in the first place, we are now more 'racist' toward non aboriginal/torres straight islanders imo!
The whole 'racist' card is tired and old, regardless what color your skin is, you are either an australian or your not, simple as that! 
The biggest mistake and most racist action was bending over and giving them the right to tribal law yet allowing them to partake in white society.
Either your an australian and live by australian law, or you go tribal (totally) and live by tribal law, but having allowed such segregation how do you enforce it without creating tribal ghettos reminiscent of american indian reserves?
Australia has to decide if we are truley one people or two. Can we not respect Australian culture
and aboriginal culture and agree on fair and equitable law for all?
you cant have your cake AND eat it, proof of this is the current situation in remote communitys, trying to live by tribal law but within white culture, its never worked, it never will!


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

Some would argue that targeting only indiginous communities in NT is a form of racism.

Yet its very clear that the aboriginees in NT are in dire need of assistance from the government even if they dont like it.

Aborginal spokespersons have gone public and said that John Howard is not trying to help them... he's trying to steal their land from them... HOW??

Iv heard also that the aboriginess are shutting off climbs on uluru in protest to this racist act... 

I honestly think that the people in NT that this policy is designed to help just dont want their drunk molestering lives to end. they are happy and who can blame them for being angry about someone trying to change their lives.
I mean you are all happy with your snakes... imagine if you werent aloud to keep snakes anymore...


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

Tetras said:


> I mean you are all happy with your snakes... imagine if you werent aloud to keep snakes anymore...



Yeah but not raping chldren to keep snakes.

Simone.


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## junglist* (Jun 27, 2007)

nuthn2do said:


> Hear this on the news? :lol: It can be dangerous agreed, but far from 100% lethal



Nope im a forensic chemist.

The lethality has to do with the length of time the brain has been wet for, and the level of continual intoxication.

Sure someone with an alcohol problem may not die going cold turkey, that is having a binge drinking problem, but being a drunk, someone who wakes up during the night to have a drink, they WILL most likely die if the go cold turkey.

Workers in addiction treatment centres will provide monitored and measured amounts of alcohol to detoxing drunks to alleviate the PHYSICAL withdrawal symptoms. No other drug is like this that our species knows of.


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## Kali7 (Jun 27, 2007)

John Howard is a control freak. He now controls the Australian Research Council. That means that no longer are researchers allowed to study what they want to. If Johnny doesnt like it - no funding and therefore no uni positions... I guess Johnny will introduce creationism into the curricula... why not the country is going so far down the tube backwards without anyone noticing that, why not let him control how we eat, drink, think and how people raise their children. 

hey, we are all happy, money is good, freedom is gone, civil rights are gone, but the money is good....

take away the rights of those people in the NT, then lets find someone else to patronise and belittle, its the Australian way.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> I mean you are all happy with your snakes... imagine if you werent aloud to keep snakes anymore...


 
keeping snakes v's abusing welfare system/raping children? Are we on the same page?


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

junglist* said:


> Nope im a forensic chemist.



What sort of alcohol are they dirnking out there? I can't believe it's just a few Tooheys that's doing the job- although if there drinking the Vomit Bombs (VB) i wouldn't be surprised.

Simone.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

I dont think it matters what they are drinking, but rather why!


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

Maybe they aren't into herping and have nothing better to do?

Simone.


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## junglist* (Jun 27, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> What sort of alcohol are they dirnking out there? I can't believe it's just a few Tooheys that's doing the job- although if there drinking the Vomit Bombs (VB) i wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Simone.



From those i have spoken to, GOON is a commonly used bevy.

To claim NEW is good for anything expect for killing the bindii plants in your back yard is laughable., VB is not quite as bad, but to an alky, any drink is a good drink.


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## moosenoose (Jun 27, 2007)

Anything can be open for abuse in the wrong hands, petrol or grog. Quite frankly I feel I'm being discriminated against because I am white  8)


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> Anything can be open for abuse in the wrong hands, petrol or grog. Quite frankly I feel I'm being discriminated against because I am white  8)



Exactly, you don't agree with someone it seems to instantly make you a racist. All i said was that the government tried something rather than nothing. No one else seemed to offer any suggestions. That makes me a racist. WOW, i didn't realise i had had said anything derrogatory to Aborigines.

Simone.


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## junglist* (Jun 27, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> Exactly, you don't agree with someone it seems to instantly make you a racist. All i said was that the government tried something rather than nothing. No one else seemed to offer any suggestions. That makes me a racist. WOW, i didn't realise i had had said anything derrogatory to Aborigines.
> 
> Simone.



As far as i read it, noone except midol was calling you a racist, and we can all agree that midol can be easily ignored ( if i dont i'll get another infraction).


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

does anyone else seriously question causes of claimed behaviour of remote community aboriginals or think the gov should?


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> Firstly how old are you? Secondly history has shown every country has been invaded by somone, New Zealand, England, Asia, South America etc. AND alot of these countries that were invaded had their original inhabitants wiped out- that didn't happen here. They still have a culture they can cling to etc. This country was settled over 200 years ago. Get over it!
> While your bitching about these laws- what are your alternatives?
> 
> Simone.



Lmao. NZ has more indigenous culture than Australia ever will. America also has a lot of indigenous culture left.

My alternatives? I'd like to see alcohol banned in all communities where problems arise because of it (and yes this will be almost all lower socio-economic areas) and money spent on education rather than restrictions, embrace the communities (note, communities, not indigenous communities) and work WITH them to create a better community.

Banning alcohol and porn won't work, ban alcohol and they'll just move to where they can get it.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> My alternatives? I'd like to see alcohol banned in all communities where problems arise because of it


 


> Banning alcohol and porn won't work, ban alcohol and they'll just move to where they can get it.


 
make up your mind, it will work or it wont?


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Tetras said:


> Some would argue that targeting only indiginous communities in NT is a form of racism.
> 
> Yet its very clear that the aboriginees in NT are in dire need of assistance from the government even if they dont like it.
> 
> ...



Errr, there is no statistical evidence showing that child abuse is more prevalent in aboriginal communities than in lower socioeconomic 'white' communities. That is why the racism card has been pulled. If we targeted ALL troubled communities there wouldn't be a problem.

Did you read the report? You'll notice that a lot of white people are actually implicated, who do you think the aborigines are trading sex with? The white men (the majority anyway).

Have any of you actually read any of the report? I haven't read it all since it is 350 pages... but I read some.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> make up your mind, it will work or it wont?



You forgot this part:
and money spent on education.

We are not funding any additional education. Just taking the alcohol away. By itself it won't work.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

How much will your anti alcohol education program cost? what will it consist of? tv ads with vomiting aboriginies?


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## Australis (Jun 27, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> Exactly, you don't agree with someone it seems to instantly make you a racist. .
> 
> Simone.



Too True Simone, its doesnt matter what races make up these communities! they have bloody massive problems, do we have to tippy toe around on egg shells just because these communties are made up of Aborigines?

The same social problems are also in Aboriginal communities in parts of QLD, and the local cops seem pretty powerless to stop it!
One such community near where i live has almost weekly cases of women having their arms broken on dole day as they cover thier heads when being attacked, when somone wants their payment!


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

Again, i think its white australia that needs educating as to why aboriginals behave that way, genetically they are ill disposed to alcohol? other factors contributing? 
seems easier to throw $$$ than ask hard questions, particully of the aboriginal folk themselves!


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## moosenoose (Jun 27, 2007)

I reckon the Aboriginals were wishing they were in the Muslim community’s shoes, look at all the benefits you can get - your own swimming times, no ham at schools and damn it….if you say anything about them you’re gonna get dragged over the coals big time :twisted: I don’t know if that’s part of being smarter or having people more afraid of you, let’s face it, jets in buildings speak louder than pointed bones


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> How much will your anti alcohol education program cost? what will it consist of? tv ads with vomiting aboriginies?



Couple of billion, I estimate $3.47 billion - taken directly from the defence budget.

It'll involve intense rehabilitation programs and accelerated learning programs to enable the children to get up to the national average for education levels. It'll provide incentives for the communities to become self sufficient with farming and allow them to set up their own crime and misconduct commission with the power to punish crimes according to their tribal law.

Those are just a few of the ideas I propose, now can we stop pretending we are politicians?

ETA: You also just touched on alcohol being more dangerous to them, completely true. Problem is an alcohol ban won't work - it never has.

Australis: In Mooloolaba it isn't unusual to see 20-30 fights happen on each weekend night, usually multiple people require hospitalisation due to fractures, broken ribs, major concussion and other medical complications. Does this mean everyone in mooloolaba are drop kicks?


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> It'll involve intense rehabilitation programs and accelerated learning programs to enable the children to get up to the national average for education levels. It'll provide incentives for the communities to become self sufficient with farming and allow them to set up their own crime and misconduct commission with the power to punish crimes according to their tribal law.


 
and if you force them to comply with your 'program' (read pogram) are you racist?

p.s many of us would do no worse as politicians! what makes them special?


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## moosenoose (Jun 27, 2007)

I'm not racist, I just hate everyone


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## junglist* (Jun 27, 2007)

There is one fantastic facet of the propsed policy, and that is to ensure that an amount out of the welfare cheques get sequestered so that they go twards feeding and clothing the kids.

This is the racist part of the policy, THAT IT ONLY APPLIES TO INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES IN THE NT.

Unfortunately Coward will not implement this in more densely populated area, DESPITE THE DIRE NEED FOR POLICIES LIKE THIS, because it will lose him votes from the people he cares about, rich white folk.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

Agreed such a policy should be accross the board.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> and if you force them to comply with your 'program' (read pogram) are you racist?
> 
> p.s many of us would do no worse as politicians! what makes them special?



No, because you missed the area where I specifically dropped indigenous so it no longer only applies to indigenous communities, ALL communities. No welfare spent on alcohol. At all. Anywhere.

Any community identified as having problems (identified through a new task force) will have these conditions placed on them. 

The thing that makes them racist is that it only applies to indigenous communities. 

You just agree'd to Jungalist so you obviously agree, that is the part of the policy that is racist. THAT is my problem with the new laws.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> Any community identified as having problems (identified through a new task force) will have these conditions placed on them.


 
and if these communitys are statistically more often indigenous, its racist?


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

Hey felix mate.
Yer we are on the same page. i was using that as an example. i.e
We would all be shatered if we could no longer keep reptiles. Imagine of the man turned around and said " nope, no more doing what you really enjoy doing" (keeping snakes and so forth).
Same as the aboriginals in NT. they like what they are doing and when Johny boy turns around and says nope, no more of that, they get pissed off.


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## salebrosus (Jun 27, 2007)

Tetras said:


> Hey felix mate.
> Yer we are on the same page. i was using that as an example. i.e
> We would all be shatered if we could no longer keep reptiles. Imagine of the man turned around and said " nope, no more doing what you really enjoy doing" (keeping snakes and so forth).
> Same as the aboriginals in NT. they like what they are doing and when Johny boy turns around and says nope, no more of that, they get pissed off.



But its not the drinking that has forced them to act its the rape, especially of young children when they are on the drink that has sparked the dramas and moreso because of it's frequency.

Simone.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> and if these communitys are statistically more often indigenous, its racist?



I asked for statistics to show they are more often committed in indigenous communities (child abuse) and you couldn't provide them. No one has provided them.

Even if it was, then yes, it'd still be racist.

These 'rules' should apply to EVERYONE (as in the welfare is spent on 'proper' things) then the other rules applied to every community in trouble (which is actually lower socio-economic communities NOT indigenous communities) along with adequate education including rehabilitation clinics.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

Understood, however as Australians, we uphold the Australian way of life, which does not accept child abuse by anyone, regardless of color or locality.
We either uphold our laws and prosecute accordingly, or turn a blind eye to the same offenses everywhere.
I might like to smoke pot aswell and be unhappy if Jhonny says nae, tough luck really. Its against the law.
There is a very big difference between reptile keeping and abusing children, therefore I ask if were on the same page because your example/analogy is poor. sorry.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> Even if it was, then yes, it'd still be racist.


 
how so? you ask for statistics therefore we assume you trust them? how are statistics (if correct) racist?


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> and if these communitys are statistically more often indigenous, its racist?





Felix said:


> how so? you ask for statistics therefore we assume you trust them? how are statistics (if correct) racist?



The rules will be racist as long as the only apply for a set race. IT doesn't matter if the percentage of indigenous rapes are slightly higher, it means whites are doing it as well and the rules should go across the board.

The most recent national figures available are from 2004-05 from Child protection Australia 2004–05 published by The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare.

Notifications of all types of abuse across states:
NSW: 133,636
VIC: 37,523
QLD: 40,829
WA: 3,206
SA: 17,473
TAS: 10,788
ACT: 7,275
NT: 2,101

Substantiated claims:
NSW: 15,493
VIC: 7,398
QLD: 17,307
WA: 1,104
SA: 2,384
TAS: 782
ACT: 1,213
NT: 473

Substantiated claims by State/territory and breakdown of indigenous to 'other' population:
New South Wales- Indigenous: 1,642 (Other: 7,556)
Victoria: Indigenous: 770 (Other: 6,244)
Queensland: Indigenous: 1,186 (Other: 11,700)
Western Australia: Indigenous: 353 (Other: 682)
South Australia: Indigenous: 481 (Other: 1,317)
Tasmania: Indigenous: 37 (Other: 599)
ACT: Indigenous: 99 (Other: 758)
Northern Territory: Indigenous: 319 (Other: 128)

Children who were the subject of a substantiated report: sexual abuse, by Indigenous status and state and territory(by per cent)
NSW: 11% (Other: 19%)
VIC: 4% (Other: 10%)
QLD: 4% (Other: 6%)
WA: 20% (Other: 23%)
SA: 2% (Other: 7%)
TAS: 30% (Other: 13%)
ACT: 3% (Other: 6%)
NT: 6% (Other: 6%)

Note: substantiated reports show that in the NT, the percentage rate of substantiated sexual abuse cases of indigenous and 'other' is the same percentage.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> *Understood, however as Australians, we uphold the Australian way of life, which does not accept child abuse by anyone, regardless of color or locality.*
> We either uphold our laws and prosecute accordingly, or turn a blind eye to the same offenses everywhere.
> I might like to smoke pot aswell and be unhappy if Jhonny says nae, tough luck really. Its against the law.
> There is a very big difference between reptile keeping and abusing children, therefore I ask if were on the same page because your example/analogy is poor. sorry.



Then why not apply the rules to everyone. If we are stamping out child abuse shouldn't we stamp it out of all communities or are white people allowed more leeway when they abuse children?


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

ahh yes true. But (no offence intended) the people in remote indiginous communites enjoy the raping side of their life, or else why would they do it?


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

If there is more abuse among indigenous communitys than non indigenous and therefore your



> identified through a new task force


imposes the program on them more often than non indigenous accordingly but still on both, how is it racist? its simpley fact and the result of your new policy.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

> Then why not apply the rules to everyone. If we are stamping out child abuse shouldn't we stamp it out of all communities or are white people allowed more leeway when they abuse children?


 
exactly my point when I said earlier, you are Australian and subject to our law or you are not, there is no diplomatic immunity for child abusers! One law for all. Its been proposed to begin in those communitys because according to somebody its most openly prevalent there!
call that as you wish.



> ahh yes true. But (no offence intended) the people in remote indiginous communites enjoy the raping side of their life, or else why would they do it?


 
thats a bit offensive, but that as it may, it returns us to my earlier question regards why this behaviour is apparently prominent among them in the first place. Until you find the true cause you cant properly address the issue, its a bit like guessing at whats wrong with a herp and concluding that if you change the waterbowl all will be well.
Rather you look at what might be causing the problem before you can address a course of action most likely to be affective.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Tetras said:


> ahh yes true. But (no offence intended) the people in remote indiginous communites enjoy the raping side of their life, or else why would they do it?



THAT is just straight up racism.

Not to mention the report identified that the majority if the abuse came from white men, the indigenous communities sold their kids to the white man.



Felix said:


> If there is more abuse among indigenous communitys than non indigenous and therefore your
> 
> 
> imposes the program on them more often than non indigenous accordingly but still on both, how is it racist? its simpley fact and the result of your new policy.



The difference is my task force has the ability to impose these restrictions on any community, instead of just indigenous communities which is how it currently works.

It doesn't matter if the restrictions are imposed on them more often, what matters is that they are the ONLY ones with the restrictions.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Felix said:


> exactly my point when I said earlier, you are Australian and subject to our law or you are not, there is no diplomatic immunity for child abusers! One law for all. Its been proposed to begin in those communitys because according to somebody its most openly prevalent there!
> call that as you wish.



No. Not all indigenous communities are bad. That is why it is racist. There are white communities where it is more prevelant than neighboring indigenous communities. 

Why can't you understand that imposing laws based on RACE is RACIST. If the government did a study and targeted ALL communities in the NT with high child abuse rates white communities would come into it as well and it would no longer be judged on race. The special task force ONLY analysed indigenous communities.


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## 6ftpythonsgirl (Jun 27, 2007)

*love to make trouble*

Firstly I Would like to say that this is driving me crazy I have been reading this thread while at work today and have been bursting to add my 2 cents..
Or maybe my dollar  
Firstly for those people saying its racist to want to* help* The Aboriginal communities of Australia please do explain how?? Remember the Aim is to* help* a community with an issue so how is it Racist??? Explanations for this should be summed up in a sentence, which will make it interesting
Is world vision Racist for helping all those poor little black children? Why aren't they helping little white kids starving while mummies getting a crack fix? I means Please… Racist? You want Racist Try this
Porch Monkey 
Nigger  
Abbo 
Coon 
That’s Racist, "Sorry you have a Drinking and Child Abused Problem in your area at a very alarming Rate and we are doing this to help" just not as bad.
And for those intending to answer with " because its Targeting a specific group" well dah if they targeted everyone it wouldn’t make sense your average
Community doesn’t have an alcoholic, fuel sniffing, no respect for anyone including themselves problem.. Well at least not my community so it would be silly for Old Johnny to ban me from porn and Grog..Can you Imagine that Speech " >From May 3rd All People in the upper middle class areas of Nth QLD that work for a living will have grog and Porn banned". I mean seriously *** sense would that make? But head to Darwin and I promise you that it will shock you. However this approach could be used in some lower class areas were women have children to get money. But they don’t live in communities as such in the way Aboriginal people do. There are always a few here and there but never all in one spot in such a large group.
Secondly he is a politician I say a again Dah of course he is using everything a political stunt his whole career is based on votes so why does that shock and outrage people? BUT that doesn’t change the fact that something needs to be done and he is trying something. You cant fix the world all at once so Focusing on a particular group is a normal start..
It has been mentioned that money has been taken away from the Aboriginals around 400 000 000 or something huge like that? Well it didn’t help them when they had it so why keep giving it to them?
Children used to be the pride of any culture.. But in these Aboriginal cultures there are children running around in Dirty nappies playing in filth and empty beer cans litter the streets. And no its not just in aboriginal communities But they seem to hang out in rather larger groups so its easier to implement some sort of action.


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

Good one Felix

behind u all the way mate.
You are either australian or not. excellent. it doesnt matter what colour skin you have or what you ancestors done.

If you are drunk and abuse children then you should be dealt with. simple as that. I dont know why people are going on about how racist it is. Sure john is prob just tryign to get re - elected but ateast he is doin something good to get re - elected.


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

6ftopythonsgirl.

Spot on! im happy that this thread has kepy you interested during the day.
If a white community was abusing children and had an alcohol problem then this would not of even been on the news.

Thanks for posting.


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## Felix (Jun 27, 2007)

I think its a pavlovian responce, pavlovs dogs salivated when he rung a bell, some people jump up and cry 'racist' when anything is said about aboriginal people! 
Some of them say 'sorry' everytime!
racism works both ways, you take it to its extreme it becomes reversed!
Its the biggest obstacle to national unity there has ever been, and the biggest obstacle to any issue like this. You cant march in and take positive action when your tiptoeing through eggshells!


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

If we are australian skin colour or not then please answer me this:

Why was the task force setup 2 years ago NOT instructed to analyse ALL communities and rank which communities need help, instead, it was instructed to analyse ALL INDIGENOUS communities. That is not treating us all like Australians...

Anyway, I am out. You guys don't understand racism nor do you even understand what sections of this are racist. The proposal is not racist, it is who the proposal is directed at and how they came to the conclusion that is.


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## Midol (Jun 27, 2007)

Tetras said:


> 6ftopythonsgirl.
> 
> Spot on! im happy that this thread has kepy you interested during the day.
> *If a white community was abusing children and had an alcohol problem then this would not of even been on the news.*
> ...



Errr, that is precisely why it is racism...


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

Midol you are saying that if a white community was effected in such a way then it would not be worth of being on the news...
So if anything the response to this has been racist against whites. Meh


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## 6ftpythonsgirl (Jun 27, 2007)

Yes but the reason that the govournment is doing things for the indigenous community is they were fine before we came along and distroyed there world and made it ours. now they cant seem to get anywhere they are living in limbo they have lost so much of there Culture that they cant live like they used to and they are still to Native at heart to live like White people add Grog to that and you have Drama all over it...

White trash communities are not as communal as the Indigenous people are so you cant sensor it properly plus white kids in bad home have DOC's if DOC's started taking all the Aboriginal kids out of homes that werent safe for them you would all get on your high horse and start ranting about the new stolen generation.

Its Damned if you do and Damned if you dont. I think what Johnny is doing is a good idea but it needs to be for all people.

Grog is a bad thing...

Except on ANZAC Day


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## gosforddreaming (Jun 27, 2007)

so what if its racism ?, it needs to happen for the kids sake, even if it means taking the kids away sobe it , if you abuse your kids you lose them that law allready applies to everyone , only this stolen genartion will be there own fault, i hope rudd wins this year but i give two thumbs up to old jonnie for haveing a go ,,,,,,,,,,,the welfare laws will applie to all aussies come middle of next year , so look out if your doing wrong by your kids........


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## 6ftpythonsgirl (Jun 27, 2007)

gosforddreaming said:


> s only this stolen genartion will be there own fault,.



Well said


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## mrmikk (Jun 27, 2007)

It's all too easy to criticisize, but if you disagree with what the Coalition Government is doing on this matter, suggest a a better alternative.

Grog is a major impediment to aboriginal people progressing, but it doesn't stop there, it harms wetu people also. Aboriginal people though are suffering at a lot more serious rate based on their numbers, and this warrants action like this.


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## Tetras (Jun 27, 2007)

Very true what mrmikk says.
It would be nice to see this policy done over and over again in different areas of NT.
He cant do it in any states cose he doesnt have the power too. Darn it.


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## 6ftpythonsgirl (Jun 27, 2007)

mrmikk said:


> It's all too easy to criticisize, but if you disagree with what the Coalition Government is doing on this matter, suggest a a better alternative.
> 
> Grog is a major impediment to aboriginal people progressing, but it doesn't stop there, it harms wetu people also. Aboriginal people though are suffering at a lot more serious rate based on their numbers, and this warrants action like this.




i agree but most people will tell you its racsist to single out a praticular group.


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## Bakes (Jun 27, 2007)

*Interesting junglist have you ever lived here in the NT?*

"Howards idea is absolutely terrible. It simply cannot work, because theres a funny hting about alcohol addictions, they kill you if you go cold turkey. Your last comment, about seeing what alcohol in aboriginal communities is laughable. The situation is NO different in white communities, its just hidden better. 

You have earnt my contempt with this rant, for although there are some valid points within this legislation, it is RACIST and discriminatory. Yes, there are alcohol problems within these communities, but the problems go beyond that, Yes there are problems with sexual crimes being committed against those who cannot defend themselves, BUT THESE ARE NOT THE ONLY COMMUNITIES THESE CRIMES HAPPEN WITHIN.

The whole taking half the welfare checks - good idea, but could have been spread across the entire country, IT WOULD BE A GOOD MOVE, but it would lose howard votes, so he opts for the racist approach and goes with singling out aboriginal communities.

There havebeen so many reports, that to NOT see that this legislation is a knee jerk reaction in attempt to buy votes for the upcoming election and to deflect the public's attention away from EVERY OTHER NON-POLICY he has.. This issue is the next TAMPA crisis. If you cannot see htat, then i guess you voted for him in the last few elections, - "oh yes we know he lied to us, but we still trust him".'

This head in the sand approach will never work, and nor will instigating changes which apply only to aboriginal communities.

Many of the sex crimes which are being reported inthese communities not only happen to be perpetrated by aboriginal individuals, but by white men going in and raping kids, simply as payment for probviding a few cases of beer, or a few grams of weed.

Maybe, the cessation of prohibition, and the provision of these drugs IN A SUPERVISED fashion would make a difference.

KAVA, from the plant piper mesthiculum, has been used in a few trials in the NT WITH AMAZING RESULTS in lowering the amount of violence being perpetrated."

*Get off the racist card its getting old. And why bring up other policies. This is about helping kids! Oh and your comment about Karva, hey thats a good idea, lets replace one drug with another. And how about this gem below*

"There is one fantastic facet of the propsed policy, and that is to ensure that an amount out of the welfare cheques get sequestered so that they go twards feeding and clothing the kids.

This is the racist part of the policy, THAT IT ONLY APPLIES TO INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES IN THE NT.

Unfortunately Coward will not implement this in more densely populated area, DESPITE THE DIRE NEED FOR POLICIES LIKE THIS, because it will lose him votes from the people he cares about, rich white folk

*Thats because the drunk men take the money and buy grog, at least the kids may get a feed. And yes it may also happen to white familys but their not at issue here, aborigional familys are. You go to a community and ask a mother if she would like half her payment so she could feed and clothe her kids and see what answer you get. So who gives a crap if Howard has singled out aborigional familys, at least the kids eat and may be a little safer!

You keep banging on about how this is not just an aborigional problem and how it should apply to everybody, well let me tell you something. In the 5 years I lived in Katherine I never once saw a drunking white couple having sex on the median strip in the middle of town. I never saw a drunken white woman run out of an ally onto the main street with a frying pan and smash a drunken white mans head in and my wife never had a drunken white woman walk up to her counter, do a crap and shake it out of her dress and then just walk away. 

You like to call everyone racist but there is no such thing, there is only one race and thats the human one. And if Howards plan doesnt work well at least he had the balls to try, So whats your plan junglist besides giving them Karva to keep them calm? *


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## .....Newbie..... (Jun 27, 2007)

_Oh what a nice thread, so good to see people talking about things that have no real affect on them (if not for buying votes )would like to have my say but BIG BROTHER ( the mods ) is watching. No need to get an **** kicking over this, so all I will say is......................... naw better not even say that the mods are so sensitive......Maybe they may learn one day we are all entitled to are own thoughts/options.......... A little bit like are government in power at the moment....
_


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## .....Newbie..... (Jun 27, 2007)

This site is so sensitive that you can't even type "**** kicking". Will try another way.... A.r.s.e kicking.......... lucky for preview. I know we have younger viewers but I know the say a lot worse in the school yard. Or do we sugar coat everything here?


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## waruikazi (Jun 28, 2007)

No one seems to understand that for this plan to work, or any other plan for that matter, it needs to have the FULL support of the people it is going to affect. This policy fits the definition of being racist and to all those saying "it's racist but so what? it needs to be done" as long as it fits this definition it will not be accepted be the leaders of the aboriginal community. This policy is doomed from the start wether it is a good policy or not.


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## grimbeny (Jun 28, 2007)

I havnt read most of this thread ( I cant be bothered lol) but i canot see this plan having a net positive effect. What i really dont understand is how they can come up with a plan in only a few weeks wich they beleive is going to solve everything. If they really need to use a heavy handed approach (Which i still dont think they do) then surely alot of research needs to go into it before hand.


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## expansa1 (Jun 28, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> I havnt read most of this thread ( I cant be bothered lol) but i canot see this plan having a net positive effect. What i really dont understand is how they can come up with a plan in only a few weeks wich they beleive is going to solve everything. If they really need to use a heavy handed approach (Which i still dont think they do) then surely alot of research needs to go into it before hand.



Very similar to President Beattie's decision to build a dam on the Mary River. His decision was made in less than 2 weeks and was quoted as saying "We will build this dam whether it is feasible or not". How dumb is that! This decision was to make up for his 8 years of ineptitude and sitting on his hands and not planning ahead. This is supposed to solve Queensland's water crisis even though all the experts say it is a bad choice of sites and is too shallow for a dam. Anyone can build a dam but that doesn't mean it's going to fill, and stay full.

Anyway, Qld voted him back in and some people were quoted as saying "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know" even though he stuffed up Qld's health system, electricity problems and water supply.... 

So Grimbeny, all pollies come up with these jackass ideas so they look like they're actually doing something. They're all the same! Beattie even passed a law to allow politicians to tell lies in Parliament so they aren't charged over it. That's pretty honest and trustworthy isn't it!


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## salebrosus (Jun 28, 2007)

expansa1 said:


> Very similar to President Beattie's decision to build a dam on the Mary River. His decision was made in less than 2 weeks and was quoted as saying "We will build this dam whether it is feasible or not". How dumb is that! This decision was to make up for his 8 years of ineptitude and sitting on his hands and not planning ahead. Not to mention that his decision was completely illegal. I do believe that there was not public consultationbefore he came out with this speech..!



Hope i can see you in the area when i take on my Town Planning/Development Assessment role at Tiaro expansa1, any tips on the area will be well appreciated.

Simone


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## mrmikk (Jun 28, 2007)

6ftpythonsgirl said:


> i agree but most people will tell you its racsist to single out a praticular group.


 

Possibly, but if circumstances have dictated that the problems of alcohol abuse and the resultant issues that follow are affecting aboriginal people more so than other 'races' is it not right then to focus on them first? I don't think Howard's action in this regard constitutes racism and I am sure the likes of Noel Pearson would agree with me.


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## waruikazi (Jun 28, 2007)

mrmikk said:


> Possibly, but if circumstances have dictated that the problems of alcohol abuse and the resultant issues that follow are affecting aboriginal people more so than other 'races' is it not right then to focus on them first? I don't think Howard's action in this regard constitutes racism and I am sure the likes of Noel Pearson would agree with me.



Well it does constitute racism because it is wholly targeted at one ethnic group of people. There are some people here who really need to learn what the definition of racism is.

Has anyone listened to my point about this needing the support from the indigenous leaders before anything positive will happen? Can no one see that it will not be supported by the indigenous leaders while it is a racist action?


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## Earthling (Jun 28, 2007)

Waruikazi, Im hearing you, but me, Im already converted to the "lets talk and change" rather then the "Change or Big stick belta your ****" philosophy. 
A lot of people would rather just believe whatever they want to believe, then listen to sound reason......

I am a bit unsure though about your "Can no one see that it will not be supported by the indigenous leaders while it is a racist action?" statement. 
I would think they (like anybody) would embrace a change for the better, (that they agree with) even if it is towards Aboriginal peoples only. 
Or do you mean forced on them?


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## waruikazi (Jun 28, 2007)

Yes i mean when it is a forced action on them i see little hope that it will be accepted. This whole thing has the possibility of being one of the best things to happen in communities in a long while. But it needs to be what the communities want.


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## Tetras (Jun 28, 2007)

what a tangles web.

Its racist because it is targeting a specific group of people but they are the people who need the most help.
It wont work becuase the community wont except it but it is possibly the best thing that could be happening to the community...

So to solve all this what has to happen?


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## salebrosus (Jun 28, 2007)

Everyone needs to argue over the meaning of the word racist on APS.

Simone.


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## waruikazi (Jun 28, 2007)

You tell me Tetra. 

It's taken me along time and alot of experience to come to the views that i hold. I don't expect anyone who has not had first hand experience with the indigenous community to really understand the situation here in the NT. I don't even fully understand it. 

Something needs to be done in a way that does not further insult the worlds oldest surviving culture, does not further marginalise and support racist ideoligies. Something needs to be done, but the way this new action has started and introduced i don't see it having the affect that we want it too.


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## Earthling (Jun 28, 2007)

Exactly.

Personally I think this will certainly help a very small amount of children...maybe even a handfull....however the majority will still suffer from the hands of their fathers, mothers or brothers or sisters or uncles or aunties or friends of the family or even complete strangers.

I also think that if the Government (THE AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE) who have an opurtunity to do something constructive and good here, do put a plan into action that will and DOES work, fantastic! We can all feel that we have helped to make a better society for children and all.
However, if we allow an action that does not help the majority of victims of pedophilia in Aboriginal Communities, we morally, are helping to commit these acts and our hands are also tainted. 
Lets hope its the right choice...........


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## zobo (Jun 29, 2007)

Like I said back on the first page. Unless you have lived and worked in these communities I can't believe half the crap some people rant on about!
I work closely with 5 guys who spent many years working in remote aboriginal communities and I can tell you now that the stories would make you blood cold. eg. 14 yr old raping their own grandmothers, guys having sex with dogs in the street, 18 month old babies being raped/killed. and the list goes on. YES this occurs in all communities, BUT proportionally it is much higher in Aboriginal communities and they are not punished appropriately due to fears of judges being labled racist. 
We recently had a NT copper come to our area and take a pay cut simply due to the aboriginals. His wife and kids could not handle it anymore and needed to get away. His wife had been spat on,abused etc, all whilst just doing the groceries. Also he was getting into wrestles (ie punch ups) 3 times a week.....now at our station I have not been in a blew for 2 years! 
This is not RACIST stuff, but something needs to be done. 
I work in one of the worst 'WHITE Trash' areas in Brisbane and I think all these welfare abuser's need to go back to a voucher/food stamps situation, so at least the kids can get food and they cant get smokes/drugs/booze. I dont have the answers but something has to happen.
jas


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## Earthling (Jun 29, 2007)

Jas, aka Zobo, do you think the army and more police in Aboriginal Communities will change the pedophiles for the long term? As in change this generation and the next and the next to the point where its basically nil?


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## salebrosus (Jun 29, 2007)

zobo said:


> Like I said back on the first page. Unless you have lived and worked in these communities I can't believe half the crap some people rant on about!
> I work closely with 5 guys who spent many years working in remote aboriginal communities and I can tell you now that the stories would make you blood cold. eg. 14 yr old raping their own grandmothers, guys having sex with dogs in the street, 18 month old babies being raped/killed. and the list goes on. YES this occurs in all communities, BUT proportionally it is much higher in Aboriginal communities and they are not punished appropriately due to fears of judges being labled racist.
> We recently had a NT copper come to our area and take a pay cut simply due to the aboriginals. His wife and kids could not handle it anymore and needed to get away. His wife had been spat on,abused etc, all whilst just doing the groceries. Also he was getting into wrestles (ie punch ups) 3 times a week.....now at our station I have not been in a blew for 2 years!
> This is not RACIST stuff, but something needs to be done.
> ...




The joys of being a policeman huh? Bugger that!

Simone.


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2007)

zobo said:


> Like I said back on the first page. Unless you have lived and worked in these communities I can't believe half the crap some people rant on about!
> I work closely with 5 guys who spent many years working in remote aboriginal communities and I can tell you now that the stories would make you blood cold. eg. 14 yr old raping their own grandmothers, guys having sex with dogs in the street, 18 month old babies being raped/killed. and the list goes on. YES this occurs in all communities, BUT proportionally it is much higher in Aboriginal communities and they are not punished appropriately due to fears of judges being labled racist.
> We recently had a NT copper come to our area and take a pay cut simply due to the aboriginals. His wife and kids could not handle it anymore and needed to get away. His wife had been spat on,abused etc, all whilst just doing the groceries. Also he was getting into wrestles (ie punch ups) 3 times a week.....now at our station I have not been in a blew for 2 years!
> This is not RACIST stuff, but something needs to be done.
> ...




No one is saying the situation is peechy out in the communities, it is far from it. And i have the utmost respect for you and your work mates, I rank police as high as nurses on importance to our country. 

The point that I am trying to make and i think a few others are aswell is that the change needs to come from the communities, not an outside source. Because if it is from an outside source, as soon as it leaves things will return back to the way they have been.


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## Teamsherman (Jun 29, 2007)

If the communities wanted to change, wouldnt they have implemented it by now?

The government needs to use the heavy hand here, and if its seen as racist, then so be it, sometimes we need to overlook a little racism for things to work.


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## Tsidasa (Jun 29, 2007)

Bakes said:


> How can giving them more money fix anything. It hasn't in the past. And these so called men commiting these acts aren't the typical pedophiles. They are just drunk and stoned board blokes. It may not work but at least the PM has made a decision which is more than anybody else had done.


THAT IS SUCH A BLATANT CRAP EXCUSE, i dont care if it presents as the typical excuse. When i'm drunk and bored i dont sexually abuse ANYONE. No not having a go at you Bakes, just IMO this has been parried around as an all too convenient excuse for inexcusable despicable behaviour.
I tend to think it is brushed under the carpet because it is put in a too hard basket.
The excuses are set in place in case anyone says it's an issue of racism. 
I don't care what religion, race, colour, creed they are, what they are doing is wrong.
The "fix" johnny is offering is something that makes him look good on paper but i have little hope it will actually solve anything as the actual problems aren't being properly addressed. The real heroes are the community workers in the midst of the crisis doing what they can with the restrictions put on them.


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## salebrosus (Jun 29, 2007)

Tsidasa said:


> When i'm drunk and bored i dont sexually abuse ANYONE. QUOTE]
> 
> Damn, you haven't been drunk around Hugsta- He's somebody i could harass easily, with or without the drink.
> 
> Simone.


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## zobo (Jun 29, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Jas, aka Zobo, do you think the army and more police in Aboriginal Communities will change the pedophiles for the long term? As in change this generation and the next and the next to the point where its basically nil?



Like I said I dont have all the answers, what do you suppose happens???
The communities wont change themselves, they cant even get a job etc.
If you ask me lock up all peds, remove grog etc, educate people and PAY them in food and shelter etc, not cash to blow at the pub.
Welfare is only supposed to supply people without jobs with the basic necessities of life; food, shelter etc, not to live a life of luxuries like alcohol and smokes etc. Thats the incentive to get a job. 
jas


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## mrmikk (Jul 10, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Well it does constitute racism because it is wholly targeted at one ethnic group of people. There are some people here who really need to learn what the definition of racism is.
> 
> Has anyone listened to my point about this needing the support from the indigenous leaders before anything positive will happen? Can no one see that it will not be supported by the indigenous leaders while it is a racist action?


 
Have you ever heard of Noel PEARSON?? Noel is a great man and a great figure head for Australian Indigenous people. Ask him if he thinks this Federal Govt initiative constitutes racism!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jul 10, 2007)

Midol said:


> A racist will always deny being racist johnbowemonie, I don't expect you to see you are being racist.
> 
> When white men first came to Australia and treated aboriginals poorly they thought they were right and it wasn't racist as well...





moosenoose said:


> I'm not racist, I just hate everyone



i dont hate everyone, im just racist.


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## Midol (Jul 10, 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/06/1971866.htm

Still pissed off that people are only researching indigenous communities (the racist part) but it shows this recent stuff is just crap.


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## peas_and_corn (Jul 11, 2007)

I find this response to the problem quite interesting for many ways. John Howard is described within political science circles as a 'radical conservative'- being a traditional conservative on many aspects but being radical on others, most prominently to do with the centralisation of government power (which conservatives traditionally oppose).

Mal Brough argued that the reason it has taken so long to undertake is because of the problem of political momentum. These policies can hardly be described as moderate in any fashion- it's a highly interventionist approach to fix a problem that is shameful. Mal argues that it was impossible to work up the momentum needed to be able to give the polities the approval they need from cabinet, let alone the Australian public. He said that 18 months ago he chaired a similar committee, the results of which he hoped will result in action, but didn't.

I believe, after hearing him talk about what he has done, the sort of hours he has put into it, and how he argues so passionately for it, that Mal firmly believes in the policies. I am not as sure about John Howard, though. I do not know for certain why he did it, but I am slightly cynical about the timing, just like anyone else. If it is an election stunt, then it hasn't manifested itself very much in the polls (although personal approval ratings do matter quite a bit nowadays).

One aspect of this whole affair that has been skimmed over is that John Howard has publicly admitted that the institutions of state* have failed. The very first obligation of a state is to secure its boundaries and enforce the rule of law. Everything else is secondary to this concern, and the crimes being committed in these areas are endemic of a breakdown of the rule of law. So when you have the Prime Minister saying that the core prerequisites of the legitimacy of a state have been undermined in areas, this is a serious case in itself, and when the crimes committed are considered, then action must be taken. That is why what Howard is doing makes sense.

Don't get me wrong- I don't like Howard, and unless he pulls something fantastic out of the bag like a national network of running chocolate milk in every house, I will vote for Rudd. In fact, most people intending to vote Labor support the policies. However, as a liberal** the rule of law is crucial to me and that is why measures must be taken in order for progress to be made. Just about everything has been tried before and quite frankly, I'm willing to try anything right now.

* When I say 'state', I am referring to institutions that govern a given area; not state in the sense of a federalist system.

**Liberal in the philosophical sense of the term, not as in the Liberal party.


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## moosenoose (Jul 11, 2007)

zobo said:


> Like I said back on the first page. Unless you have lived and worked in these communities I can't believe half the crap some people rant on about!
> I work closely with 5 guys who spent many years working in remote aboriginal communities and I can tell you now that the stories would make you blood cold. eg. 14 yr old raping their own grandmothers, guys having sex with dogs in the street, 18 month old babies being raped/killed. and the list goes on. YES this occurs in all communities, BUT proportionally it is much higher in Aboriginal communities and they are not punished appropriately due to fears of judges being labled racist.
> We recently had a NT copper come to our area and take a pay cut simply due to the aboriginals. His wife and kids could not handle it anymore and needed to get away. His wife had been spat on,abused etc, all whilst just doing the groceries. Also he was getting into wrestles (ie punch ups) 3 times a week.....now at our station I have not been in a blew for 2 years!
> This is not RACIST stuff, but something needs to be done.
> ...




Oh you want to be careful Zobo, I got labeled a racist by someone on here for saying exactly this! IT’s not racism, it’s a hard, cold fact! 

Whatever is happening now is not working, so something outside the square needs to be done, and even that, I’m my humble opinion, won’t work because it’s still classed by these people as “white” interference! I’ve had more tangles with the aboriginal community in Brisbane than any other race, and generally 9/10 of those conflicts have been with half-cast blokes with a chip on their shoulder and under the influence of grog! I’m all for helping these people out, but when will the time come when they start to help themselves out? There is plenty of white trash out there who do not receive any of these entitlements! That is discrimination IMO! Voucher and Food stamps is the most logical approach so far!


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