# Ok all you Diamond Experts



## pugsly (Sep 27, 2007)

You tell me what the following are, whether Port Macs or Pure.

I know exactly where these came from, and Ill bet 'my left arm' if you all get them correct.

I have done something like this before which showed how misinformed the general Herp community is when it comes to identifying Diamonds/intergrades, but clearly you all know what your talking about, so put ya money where ya mouth is.

And I have 'hundreds' more of these I can go all night if you like, you will start to see for yourselves the differences between the two.


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## Snow1369 (Sep 27, 2007)

Hrmm i wouldn't have a clue but i'm gunna try  hehe
1.PM
2.PM
3.PM
4.Pure Diam.
5.Pure Diam.


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## Miss B (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm going to have a total stab in the dark :lol:

PORT MAC ~ PORT MAC ~ PORT MAC ~ DIAMOND ~ DIAMOND

The only reasoning behind my guesses is the size of the rosettes. But really I have no clue, it's just a guess


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## pugsly (Sep 27, 2007)

Interesting comments so far..

Once this thread is done, maybe you will be able to identify them. We can maybe one day be able to identify what is what. As Mr B has already said, thats more than highly unlikely thanks to the Hybrid breeders...


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## mungus (Sep 28, 2007)

Lets see,
since I have no money, I cant loose any.
So here we go.
Top three - natural intergrades.
Btm two - Diamonds.
How's that !!!


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

LOL 

Amazing, see you can seem to identify that the rosettes on the first three are clearly NOT diamond rosettes, but yet in the Trio for sale , there pure diamonds?? Sorry I am a little confused..


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Ok, so we are starting to see the differences, yay. Wont change people posting there 'Diamonds' up here when there clearly NOT.

More..


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## mungus (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> LOL
> 
> Amazing, see you can seem to identify that the rosettes on the first three are clearly NOT diamond rosettes, but yet in the Trio for sale , there pure diamonds?? Sorry I am a little confused..



There all beautifull snakes to me mate.
Sometimes there's a fine line between the two.


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Agreed.

There certainly is, and there are always exceptions (SR's striped and a few others I have seen).

But from what I have seen, and photographed, IMO they are intergrades (trio thread). As you can see above I keep my fair share of them and I think there both equally beautiful, they should be worth the same amount as a diamond anyway IMO.

I have seen some absolute cracker Port Macs, ask Glimmerman to show you his.


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## Vat69 (Sep 28, 2007)

That black diamond is stunning


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## mungus (Sep 28, 2007)

I've got one off his dp and he's a cracker - well I think its a dp.
The portmac's Damien has are awesome as well.


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Correct.

Yeah Vat, they have been mating (there are 2 which are that black) so the breeder has his fingers crossed, she is a little old though.


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## cris (Sep 28, 2007)

They are all M.spilota unless you know where they are collected from its foolish to try and group them by appearance alone. Im not from NSW but up here in qld there is massive variation in carpet pythons in the same locality does this not happen in NSW?

I have seen wild coastal carpet in Qld that would probably get called port macs or other rubbish by plenty of ppl on this site.

I remember someone having a guess at a Qld animal coming from coffs harbour recently too...


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## wil (Sep 28, 2007)

id rather a good looking interdrade over a pure diamond anyday, alot hardier and less prone to dps
hey pugs top pics as allways
love the black diamond


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

I know where they were ALL collected from mate.

Thanks Wil, I agree that the Port Macs are awesome, and will become even more popular once people start realising they are not Hybrids or Crosses. They can look spectacular too, take Alana's orange girl, she is outstanding.


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## blair55 (Sep 28, 2007)

where did the black diamond originate


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

Hey pugsly 
How about posting some pics with the species on it , that way there is no guessing and people can get a better idea of what's what ......


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Well the ones posted so far.

1. Port Mac
2. Port Mac
3. Port Mac
4. Diamond
5. Diamond
6. Port Mac
7. Diamond
8. Diamond
9. Diamond
10. Diamond

I can put heaps more up, might get to it tonight.


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## ALLANA (Sep 28, 2007)

Hi Pugs, I'm a bit confused now, picture no7 is what you said is a diamond for shore (second lot of pictures posted second from the top left) but her rosettes are bigger, I've attatched another photo of the yellow girl and her rosetts are quite simular to that one. This is the female that wasn't bred by John Smith, she was brought from QLD, from a lady that only had her and she's not orange. I'm just trying to understand it all thanks

View attachment 30252


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Im happy enough to call that a nice diamond Alana.

In the other pic looked (from the angle) like the rosettes where joined and seemed in a straight line rather than side by side.

I think you have a nice one there, thanks for the new pic.


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

Pugsly there are some gorgeous Dp's and Port Mac's in that lot!!! Me personally I think there can be some stunning Port Mac's but people still think they are hybrids or an unnatural intergrade... :shock:..... but it's the same as coastals they are the same species just different locale!

Each species have huge varients between locales.... Jungles, Coastals, Stimmi's etc etc so why do people make such a big deal out of Dp's and PM's?????? They are in effect the same just different locale!!!

Anyway enough of my rant...... Pugsly IYO what do you think this girl is????? And I'd love to hear other people's thoughts as well... oh and please NO comments about mites....... she didn't have them and it was taken in winter so she wasn't over heating.... just having a moment as she was only in there for about 10mins then had enough!!! hehe!!!

Cheers,
Mell


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## cris (Sep 28, 2007)

The point is we dont know where they are collected from, apart from your word i have no reason to believe they arnt hybrids(i do believe you though). IMO if they are all loaclity specific they would be intergrades and diamonds. Unless they all came from port mac. Or do you see the integrades as a seperate subspecies?

Integrades look exactly the same as some hybrids, the only way to know is if you trust the breeder or have collected them yourself. We will now just get owners of coastalxintegrade, diamondx integrade, coastal xdiamonds all calling them "port macs" now because they can sell them for more. When in actually fact they probaby came from a location nowhere near port mac. IMO calling them port macs makes more problems than it solves, what wrong with accurately desribing them as integrades originating from ___ locality?


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## ALLANA (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Im happy enough to call that a nice diamond Alana.
> 
> In the other pic looked (from the angle) like the rosettes where joined and seemed in a straight line rather than side by side.
> 
> I think you have a nice one there, thanks for the new pic.



No worries
I'll attach another pic of the Yellow/Orange girl which is the one bred by John smith, I will try today to get new photo's of all of them from above so we can all get a good look at them.
Yellow/orange girl
View attachment 30253


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

Logan & Allana's Reptile Enclosures said:


> Hi Pugs, I'm a bit confused now, picture no7 is what you said is a diamond for shore (second lot of pictures posted second from the top left) but her rosettes are bigger, I've attatched another photo of the yellow girl and her rosetts are quite simular to that one. This is the female that wasn't bred by John Smith, she was brought from QLD, from a lady that only had her and she's not orange. I'm just trying to understand it all thanks
> 
> View attachment 30252



I would call that a diamond .....but i am no expert .....


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

"Integrades look exactly the same as some hybrids, the only way to know is if you trust the breeder or have collected them yourself. We will now just get owners of coastalxintegrade, diamondx integrade, coastal xdiamonds all calling them "port macs" now because they can sell them for more. When in actually fact they probaby came from a location nowhere near port mac"

Couldn't agree more.

"IMO calling them port macs makes more problems than it solves, what wrong with accurately desribing them as integrades originating from ___ locality?"

I dont agree here, as Port Macs is just a term which is starting to be used to ge rid of the 'intergrade' tag which gives people, epecially new keepers, the idea there not pure animals, when they are.

I am happy to call them _____ locality Carpets, just like we are starting to see with all the Womas, doesnt bother me at all, but it seems a little easier to come up with a name to put them into, Port Mac is one idea. Call them upper Central Coast Carpets I dont mind mate.


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2007)

that number 10 pic diamond is a cracker pugs


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks mate, she sure is. Has a white tongue too lol.

Alana, I still believe that one is an intergrade. The Rosettes, the colour, the striping down the sides, all indicate that it is not a pure Diamond.

Just my opinion


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## Goannas1 (Sep 28, 2007)

i love it wen the Diamond Experts jump in


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

snakeman89 said:


> i love it wen the Diamond Experts jump in



Well the thread is directed at the "diamond experts " :lol:


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

MrsShep77

Thats a cracker of a Diamond.. I have a male almost Identical, she for sale?! lol

Beauty


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## cris (Sep 28, 2007)

I think they should be called integrades as the gradually change accross their range, otherwise someone needs to set out an exact line where a diamond changes into a "port mac"(or whatever name you give the integrades). Even if you can set up some magical border something 100m on one side being a diamond bred with a "port mac" from 100m on the other side of the line is hardly going to be an unnatural hybrid. While if you classify them all as "port macs" breeding one from the sourthern extent of the "port mac" with one from the northern most area will definately be an unnatural hybrid.

IMO Calling them integrades from a specific locality is the only way we can hope to keep these animals pure. Considering the rate of captives escaping many of the wild populations will become more polluted than captive lines in the future.

If ppl cant get their head around the concept of integrades existing on the boudaries of 2 differant species, subspecies or even clearly defined locality types they should take up knitting or something instead of breeding snakes...JMO


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> MrsShep77
> 
> Thats a cracker of a Diamond.. I have a male almost Identical, she for sale?! lol
> 
> Beauty


 
Thanks Pugs...... NOOOOOO definately not for sale.... no amount of money could be offered for her!!!! 

Oh and that's not even her best pic it just was to show the rosettes!!!!
Thanks 
Mell


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## Goannas1 (Sep 28, 2007)

dickyknee said:


> Well the thread is directed at the "diamond experts " :lol:



yes i know that


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

You make some good points there Cris,

My head hurts to much to think about any other responses for now lol!

But Im happy to call a Telegraph Point Carpet a Telegraph Point Carpet etc etc


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> You make some good points there Cris,
> 
> My head hurts to much to think about any other responses for now lol!
> 
> But Im happy to call a Telegraph Point Carpet a Telegraph Point Carpet etc etc




 I prefer to call them 'mid north coast carpets" as it covers the whole mid north coast range and if the actual specific locale is known.. 

mid north coast carpet, telegraph point locale


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Yep, either or, Im easy lol


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## Australis (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> I am happy to call them _____ locality Carpets, just like we are starting to see with all the Womas, doesnt bother me at all, but it seems a little easier to come up with a name to put them into, Port Mac is one idea. Call them upper Central Coast Carpets I dont mind mate.



A bit pedantic but.....

Considering Port Macquarie isnt on the Central Coast at all, it would be more appropriate to say Lower (mid)North coast, if not Mid North Coast.

The Central Coast region as far as im concerned doesnt extend much futher north than Catherine Hill Bay.

People from Sydney talking about intergrade/diamond borders seem to think it goes a hell of alot further North than this for some reason including you pugsly


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## richardsc (Sep 28, 2007)

im no expert but id say last 2 pures,i assumed diamonds had around 7ish scales in each diamond mark on there backs,there the best looking ones as well,for me anyways,oh and hybrids are just as prone to dps,and yeah as was said by cris unless u know for sure the history can u be totally sure what u have,im sure some hybrids look like pures,and u cant trust what some people say it is,a great thread though,interesting to read everyones thoughts


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## Col J (Sep 28, 2007)

I've been wanting to ask a question for a long time, but have avoided it, due to the risk of perpetuating the same old argument. Looks like this thread is pretty constructive with some experienced keepers on board, as well as those of us willing to learn, so here goes. . . 

Can someone post photos of DP's & intergrades from the various localities, from south coast through to Qld border which can show the natural progression from true DP's to intergrades, to true Coastal Carpets. These would obviously be representative individuals from those localities. I'm sure everyone accepts that there are differences in individuals from the same locale.

It's good to see this thread going in the right direction.

Col J


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Hi mate,

I would be happy to do that for you. What you will find though, is people will show how there are exceptions to the 'rules'.

I can show you a Diamond from Wollongong, almost Jet black and a Diamond from Gosford unbelievable gold. But then I can also show you a Diamond from Gosford jet black, and a Wollongong high gold..

What you DO notice though, is the Rosettes changing. from very small so getting larger and then joined. Then you start to see the Coastal colours appear.

Problem also with the carpets, I have seen (from the same clutch) a Coffs Carpet look like a Jungle x Diamond, and the other look like a perfect example of a Coastal. Weird hey!

Ill have a play on the weekend and see what I can show you though.


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## Hetty (Sep 28, 2007)

I used to live in Coffs and saw heaps of wild carpets. They all looked coastal.


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

Pugsly you took the words right out of my mouth!!! 
There are always going to be exceptions to the rules and absolute extremes within similar areas so it will be hard but definately a very good question!

Maybe then we could "somehow" alleviate some of the bickering and misunderstandings when it comes to DP's & PM's....

The funny thing is I don't think I've see this much controversy within a snake species as what we have with the Diamonds.... I mean there are so many locales for Jungles but yet nobody has really brought it to the forefront like we do with Diamonds! I mean the whole "intergrade/hybrid" debate is just amazing for one species!!! Personally I think there are some STUNNING Port Mac's in the hobby and would consider them over some of the Diamonds any day... my Miss Erwin obviously excluded...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck with it Pugsly and I'm really looking forward to seeing the difference and the progression myself! 
If you are doing something fancy Pugsly and need some pics (not that YOU probably would) but Miss Erwin is from the Napean Region of Sydney.

Cheers,
Mell


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks Mel.

I will try and put something together for sure. 

The nothing. When you see this particular snake, you will swear blind it is a striped diamond, with a little jungle pattern. Ill get some updated shots of it next week.


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## Goannas1 (Sep 28, 2007)

don't get me rong pugsly but you are starting to sound like one of these dp Experts i know you might not be trying to but that is what it sounds like.every one might know a fair bit about diamond pythons but no one knows it all it is easy to say someone has a intergrade it dose not mean it is true i have seen rescue dp that looke like port macs i have seen port macs that looke like diamond pythons i could say i know it all the truth is i dont and nether does anyone else. not having a go just saying what i think.

cheers


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## Col J (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks Pugsly,

that's why I threw in the bit *"I'm sure everyone accepts that there are differences in individuals from the same locale."* 

We should be able to look through the variation of colours & see the rosettes & how they change with geographical region.

There are many DP's with beautifully arranged & small sized rosettes, but the rosettes are joined into (dare I say) stripes for the first few diamonds along the neck. They come from clutches of individuals with no joining of diamonds. Does this mean they are from the lower end, or the first stage of intergrading? How do we classify these individuals?

At the end of the day, I haven't seen an ugly diamond yet, whatever you call it!!

Col J.


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## Hetty (Sep 28, 2007)

Sounds good Pugsly


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## nightowl (Sep 28, 2007)

Here is a couple of definite 'pure' animals....

A diamond from Gosford.






An 'Intergrade' from Port Macquarie.





Another 'Intergrade' from Port Macquarie.





An 'Intergrade' from Kempsey.





Cheers
Shane


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Ok,

this should confuse everyone lol.

These are all from the same clutch of Coffs Carpets.


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Nice Shane.

Even in those 'intergrades' there, how many people are sitting back thinking, wow, I thought they were diamonds!

Shows a few things:

a) There BOTH beautiful snakes, whether from Telegraph Point or Wollongong
b) So many people are misinformed in this species
c) There are often subtle differences and there are intergrade looking diamonds, and diamond looking intergrades!


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## Hetty (Sep 28, 2007)

Wow. I love the second one.


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Yep.

Drop dead gorgeous animal.

Should be photographing it again next week, provided the owner hasn't sold it!?


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## Col J (Sep 28, 2007)

Geez Pugsly, looking at a couple of those Coffs carpets, I can't help thinking that their Mum might have met up with a JCP on hols down from Atherton!!


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## nightowl (Sep 28, 2007)

True mate, that first 'Intergrade' female has rosettes like that all the way up her body, except for some striping from the neck down.

It is true, unless you know the breeder or the actual locality of the python, you never know where it could be from or if it is 'pure'. I know bugger all about diamonds but that first one is definitely from Gosford and nothing like the high yellow diamonds you associate with that locale.



pugsly said:


> Nice Shane.
> 
> Even in those 'intergrades' there, how many people are sitting back thinking, wow, I thought they were diamonds!
> 
> ...


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## grimbeny (Sep 28, 2007)

Someone posted on here not long ago a photo of a wild diamond in the royal national park down south of sydney and it had striping similar if not more than the individuals logan&Allana are trying to sell.


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## swingonthespiral (Sep 28, 2007)

Great thread!

Personally I think MIss Erwin takes the cake LOL

Just a quick one (not having a dig at you or anything genuinely interested in response) how would one tell the difference just by looking at Shanes second picture?

I do notice a very slight elongated (sp?) rosette on the neck and on the coil either side of that pic. Is that the sole way to tell the difference???


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

yep. Sure did. Was also an INTERGRADE. Thats right, apparently they know that its there, and leave it there! Genius NPs...

Lord Serpentongue picked it for an intergrade straight away.

But sssshhhh dont tell the 14 year old Diamond experts that


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## Renagade (Sep 28, 2007)

wow! those coff's ones rock! this is my little port mac bred in feb from glimmerman.


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Good question (re Shanes second one)

If I saw it without knowing I would be happy to call it either a Diamond or Intergrade.

But, I would lean intergrade for a couple of reasons:

Colour - you can see that tinge of dark orange coming through
Rosettes - Diamonds GENERALLY have 2 'spots' of Rosettes, either side by side or imagine using your index and middle fingers, painting them white and wondering your fingers down the back of a jet black snake.

The rosettes on that one are different as there singular going doin the back (not the whole way but in areas) rather than rosettes side by side or in close proximity.

Thats just me though.


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## Colin (Sep 28, 2007)

nightowl said:


> but that first one is definitely from Gosford and nothing like the high yellow diamonds you associate with that locale.



Shane that black diamond is black gold to me  an absolute stunner and I'm very envious


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## swingonthespiral (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks Pugs so what you are saying GENERALLY speaking is that Diamonds have a very uniform (grid like) pattern of rosettes where as intergrades seem to be more random????

Is that right or I am way off the mark??


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Yes well thats what I believe anyway.

Here are some of mine.

Notice on the diamonds there very organised, there size is similar, there are 4-8 or so white scales surrounded in black before the yellow tipping comes in.

Intergrades have all sorts of patterns from stripes to perfect Coastal carpet patterns. You will see that there rosettes can be completely different all the way down there body. Some look like diamonds some carpets.

This is Glimmermans Port Mac, and one of mine. The rosettes are larger, and sometimes joined.


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

Well here is a better pic of Miss Erwin our diamond from the Napean region! In the second photo I'm not sure of the locality of the smaller diamond but Miss Erwin is the larger b&w to the right.


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## JasonL (Sep 28, 2007)

A wild one from the Royal, not the best pic for looking at rosettes, but was a very active snake.


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Beautiful Girl you have there. Both look very healthy too. 

Send her my way whenever you want ok!

Nice Shot and nice snake there mate.

Beautiful colour..


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## dee4 (Sep 28, 2007)

Interesting thread, I think a lot of useful info is coming out in this one. Well done Pugsly.
The 1st thing that sprung to mind was this one a guy has I know, can I have an opinion on this one if you don't mind?


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks Pugsly... we are very pleased with her!!! 
Sorry no amount of money could make us sell her!!!
We'll sell you one of her babies!!! hehe!!


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

Dee4.... I'm thinking it's an intergrade! The rosettes are different than the diamonds!


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

IMO 

Intergrade, but thats def not to say it might be a diamond or anything else for that matter!

But for me, the joined rosettes are defintately intergrad'ish.

As I said though you can have intergrade looking Diamonds, and Diamond looking intergrades. 

Either way, its one HOT snake.


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## dee4 (Sep 28, 2007)

The info that's been provided it would seem that way to me also.


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## WombleHerp (Sep 28, 2007)

still confused  but ill get it eventually.. hopefully


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## cris (Sep 28, 2007)

JasonL said:


> A wild one from the Royal, not the best pic for looking at rosettes, but was a very active snake.



I have seen pythons very similar to this(minus the high yellow and probably a different head pattern not that i can see it) in the goldcoast hinterland. My cousin who has lived there for ages and seen 100's of carpets didnt believe me when i told him diamond pythons dont live there. No pics though 

I remember reading somewhere about some genetic work being done on the carpets that was suggesting that all of the eastern subspecies where actually the same. Does anyone know anything about this or if the work is finished?


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## nuthn2do (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> IMO
> 
> Intergrade, but thats def not to say it might be a diamond or anything else for that matter!
> 
> ...


I don't want to sound like i doubt your experience and knowledge of this breed, but the line here between definite and maybe pure diamond/port mac/intergrade/hybrid is starting to fog over again.
I can look at these animals and immediately form my own opinion as well (yes 95% the same as yours) but that's not really gospel is it?


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

No mate, never said it was gospel. And there are people on here and elsewhere with FAR more experience then I have had with the breed.

Its good you seem to be able to identify them and when it gets close, its almost impossible to tell.

BUT, the obvious ones, should be identified to stop people mixing bloodlines, getting ripped off, or told what there buying isnt actually what it is. Thats what its about.


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## Australis (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> BUT, the obvious ones, should be identified to stop people mixing bloodlines, getting ripped off, or told what there buying isnt actually what it is. Thats what its about.




It is a shame pugsly that the "natural intergrade form" of Carpet receives so much misrepresentation in the hobby, im in total agreeance with you on that one.

People who should know better still seem to use the term "intergrade" to describe their man made hybrids.
Even claiming you can breed hybrids back to a pure point! :shock: insanity.

I wonder if someone would post photos of their known Diamond/Coastal man made hybrids, to demostrate how they look compared to the real natural intergrades pugsly posted up.


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 28, 2007)

rosette size and shape is a very "general" way of identifing a diamonds locality.just to show that not all "gosfords "have the small tight rosettes,heres one found at a mates place at terrigal(on gosfords dorstep) that has a banded rosette pattern.also if anyone has the book "Australian Snakes-a natural history",page 96 shows 4 "gosfords"mating in a tree.3 of them have the small rosettes while the other is banded like the one in the photo.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Sep 28, 2007)

i know what some are,u gotta look close at the scales i think the port mac have different patterns to a diamond and there sizes but sometimes it hard to tell
there all nice snakes


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## herpie boy (Sep 28, 2007)

i cant believe hornet hasnt had hes lil sook about this thread........hahahhahhahahahahahh


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

just for any members that are interested in some hybrid/intergrade/crossed pics, please i am only posting these pics to show others the differences, so please can we not turn this into a personal attack on me, these are crossed between a coastal male and a port mac female, please remember this isn't a diamond cross, but a port mac/intergrade cross coastal, now for some pics, 
but please lets just keep this thread friendly as i have just watched this thread as i didn't want to get involved in a hybrid debate, 

pics, these are pics of 2 x 18 month old crosses that i bred................


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

these are the parents, 

male pure coastal............







mother, pure port mac carpet, (i was told she is a port mac local but can't be certain)


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

a couple young natural intergrades, i'm not sure on their exact location........


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## waruikazi (Sep 28, 2007)

I think... everyone should get a bredli.


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

now pugsly these are for you, i know the exact location of these, i'm sure you will get close to the exact location, and anybody else want to have a guess they are welcome, 

please excuse the dark one as she was shedding,


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

sorry for all the pics, but i have a couple more for you pugsly, and i'm thinking you might be one of the very few that can pick these, they were bred by a member on here and a friend, i have seen both parents in the flesh and also know the location of the parents........... 

1st one............











2nd one..........


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

sorry for the dirty paper, i had them in the sun as i was cleaning their tubs, also these are from the same clutch.........


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> I think... everyone should get a bredli.



:lol: yep, got a pair of hypos from indicus and 3 hatchling f/ms from somebody else, lol,


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

Hey Steve , first lot are portmacs , and the second lot are coastals ,


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## Goannas1 (Sep 28, 2007)

chief said:


> none of the pictures are diamonds if u dont believe me go **** urself



wow he didnt say thay were diamonds


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

chief said:


> none of the pictures are diamonds if u dont believe me go **** urself



Geez that's helpful , thank you for sorting that our for us .........


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## waruikazi (Sep 28, 2007)

chief said:


> none of the pictures are diamonds if u dont believe me go **** urself



ROFL!!!

This is half the reason i wont keep diamonds. Everyone else seems to know exactly what locality they are down to the tree they were plucked from and according to these people they are anything but diamonds. 

Maybe all diamond keepers should start crossing their animals out, then there will be no confusion on what kind of carpet they are :lol:.


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## serpenttongue (Sep 28, 2007)

slimebo said:


> if anyone has the book "Australian Snakes-a natural history",page 96 shows 4 "gosfords"mating in a tree.


 
What makes you say they are "Gosfords"??


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

chief said:


> *** yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!diamonds are ***** poo jabbers which are only good for pleaure on urself ur wife ur mum or mainly ur rats before the SUFFER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



whatever


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## OzExcalibur (Sep 28, 2007)

Being new to reptile keeping I really liked the look of Diamonds but went with a MD for my first snake, from what I read around here and other places they are a much easier snake to start with, not requiring UV light etc etc.

My question is do the Port Mac's also require UV lighting and are they as susceptable to DPS?

Sorry for the dumb questions just trying to learn as much as I can.


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> ROFL!!!
> 
> This is half the reason i wont keep diamonds. Everyone else seems to know exactly what locality they are down to the tree they were plucked from and according to these people they are anything but diamonds.
> 
> Maybe all diamond keepers should start crossing their animals out, then there will be no confusion on what kind of carpet they are :lol:.



You are right , i do keep them and i know exactly where mine came from , but people will still tell me other wise or that they are some thing else ........but it dont bother me to much , i like them and that all that matters .


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

chief said:


> none of the pictures are diamonds if u dont believe me go **** urself



ummmm please quote me where i said any of the pics i posted were diamonds, i own 70 snakes and as i live in nth qld i own zero diamonds...............

i stated the first lot are hybrids/crosses/intergrades, the second 2 are the parents of the first lot, one coastal, one natural intergrade/port mac, the third lot are young natural intergrades, the 4th and 5th lot i left unnamed to get opinions, and if you think they are diamonds you need glasses, 

now as for you final comment, i did that today and man it was good,............... you should try it as you seem a little tense.................


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

whats this one


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

dickyknee said:


> Hey Steve , first lot are portmacs , and the second lot are coastals ,



any idea as to location, and i'm surprised you think the second lot are coastals, :lol:


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## serpenttongue (Sep 28, 2007)

OzExcalibur said:


> Being new to reptile keeping I really liked the look of Diamonds but went with a MD for my first snake, from what I read around here and other places they are a much easier snake to start with, not requiring UV light etc etc.
> 
> My question is do the Port Mac's also require UV lighting and are they as susceptable to DPS?
> 
> Sorry for the dumb questions just trying to learn as much as I can.


 
Well DPS occurs because diamonds cant tolerate high temps on a permanent basis (eg no overnight cooling or winter cooling). This could happen to any python species thats exposed to high temps constantly (they must have their limits - overheat any python long enough and it's internal organs would shut down), it's just that diamonds are more susceptible to it due to being a cold weather python.

Dave Barker once told me that Diamonds, natural intergrades, Coastal Carpets and Diamond/Coastal hybrids can all get DPS.


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

ponybug said:


> any idea as to location, and i'm surprised you think the second lot are coastals, :lol:



well i could give you an guess but we both know i'm going to be right so i'll let some one else guess....:lol:


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## wicked reptiles (Sep 28, 2007)

Snow1369 said:


> Hrmm i wouldn't have a clue but i'm gunna try  hehe
> 1.PM
> 2.PM
> 3.PM
> ...



I agree with this guy, he knows what he is talking about LOL :lol:


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Crikey steve, I knew you had some snakes but GEESUZ!

NICE WORK

Jay76 I dont believe thats a pure diamond. I also dont think its an intergrade.. lol My guess its a Hybrid. But thats just me.

Steve, I dont know where to start with the guessing lol

I think the first two (the adults) are Telegraph Point - Wauchope area.?

As for the million other pics! haha im not sure where to start..

Did you want me to have a crack at EXACT locale?


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

I actually think that there not intergrades..

More Coastals, so Im guessing from between Kempsey and Coffs, or around the Coffs area. 

SPECTACULAR animals.


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Crikey steve, I knew you had some snakes but GEESUZ!
> 
> NICE WORK
> 
> ...






:lol: thats ok pugsly, about 70 at the moment, but i'm going to cut back a few, just sorting some out soon, 

i have to say you are spot on with 2 adult port macs, they are from telegraph point, 

the only others i'd be interested in is the last pair, whats your thoughts on them, intergrades, port mac's, coastals, and your reasons for why, i know their location as a mate bred them and i also have held the parents, we have already agreed with the chief expert that they aren't diamonds :shock: 

the first lot are what you would call hybrids, we all know what i have had thrown at me about them, :lol: the 2 young port macs i don't know their exact location so i couldn't tell you if you were right


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 28, 2007)

serpenttongue said:


> What makes you say they are "Gosfords"??


i'm not saying they are gosfords, i'm saying that 3 of them have the so called "gosford "pattern,as everyone calls it, and one doesn't ,yet they are living in the same locality.so my main point is that diamond pythons (or any carpets )can have different patterns living in the same area.


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Crikey steve, I knew you had some snakes but GEESUZ!
> 
> NICE WORK
> 
> ...



100% pure diamond


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## GSXR_Boy (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm no "expert" but it's fair to say the first three photos are diamonds.
Anyone want to guess on what snake in the last two photos is? Pure or other?


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## serpenttongue (Sep 28, 2007)

slimebo said:


> i'm not saying they are gosfords, i'm saying that 3 of them have the so called "gosford "pattern,as everyone calls it, and one doesn't ,yet they are living in the same locality.so my main point is that diamond pythons (or any carpets )can have different patterns living in the same area.


 
Okay, no problem.

It's just that none of those diamonds in that pic look like Gosford diamonds to me:?.


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> I actually think that there not intergrades..
> 
> More Coastals, so Im guessing from between Kempsey and Coffs, or around the Coffs area.
> 
> SPECTACULAR animals.



damn your good, :lol: i knew you would know, yes the last pair are PURE coastals from coffs harbour area, a bit inland of coffs,


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

And Steve they are gorgeous coastals at that..... 
Hmmm can't wait for them to breed as I'm on that list hey... 

It is amazing though how much difference and variations between the locations... awesome pics everyone!!

Cheers,
Mell


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

gsxr boy i would say pure but i only have 2 diamonds


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

mrsshep77 said:


> And Steve they are gorgeous coastals at that.....
> Hmmm can't wait for them to breed as I'm on that list hey...
> 
> It is amazing though how much difference and variations between the locations... awesome pics everyone!!
> ...



hi again, yes they are hot coastals, your first on the list babe, i know how much you want chilli :lol:


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 28, 2007)

WOOHOO!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

As I've said earlier there are some stunning port mac's around that I'd buy over some diamonds any day!!! **** ssshhhh don't tell Miss Erwin *** hehehe!!!

Yes Chilli is hot and I can't wait to watch her progress!


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## GSXR_Boy (Sep 28, 2007)

jay76 said:


> gsxr boy i would say pure but i only have 2 diamonds


 

First 3 i would say 100% but the last i can't be sure.
She looked much better "in the flesh" and the buyer said he thought it was pure when i said i'm not sure.

I have some youngn's that look like yours.


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## serpenttongue (Sep 28, 2007)

GSXR_Boy said:


> I have some youngn's that look like yours.


 
Pics or they dont exist!


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

another one


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## GSXR_Boy (Sep 28, 2007)

serpenttongue said:


> Pics or they dont exist!


 
I;ll try and get some on the weekend as the others didn't turn out as expected 
(Quite the novice with the camera  )


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

Cant really tell from the Pics there GSXR Boy.

No idea on the 4th from that pic.

Last one could be diamond though. Doesnt have many if any joined rosettes.

As for Gosfords being a particular pattern, I never said that and dont agree with it. I said I can show you two diamonds from that area, or more, which all look completely different, from jet black no rosettes i.e Nightowls one, to my one which is black and white, to the one you posted.


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

That new one is not a diamond.

Well, if it is and you know the exact locale, its certainly not a normal diamond lol. Looks like a Coastal actually.


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

mrsshep77 said:


> WOOHOO!!!! :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> As I've said earlier there are some stunning port mac's around that I'd buy over some diamonds any day!!! **** ssshhhh don't tell Miss Erwin *** hehehe!!!
> 
> Yes Chilli is hot and I can't wait to watch her progress!



:lol::lol: thats ok mell, i'll keep you updated on her, and my pair of adult port macs carpets have been mating, and the f/m just shed, if she lays i'll see if there are any that stand out for you, it will be our secret, shhhhhhhhhh


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> That new one is not a diamond.
> 
> Well, if it is and you know the exact locale, its certainly not a normal diamond lol. Looks like a Coastal actually.



matt bonnett bred it


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

mmmm

So your saying its a Diamond then.

He has some very interesting Diamonds thats for sure..


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> mmmm
> 
> So your saying its a Diamond then.
> 
> He has some very interesting Diamonds thats for sure..



yep


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## dickyknee (Sep 28, 2007)

jay76 said:


> yep



Are you saying that orange looking thing is a diamond ???
It certainly does not look any thing like a traditional diamond .


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

dickyknee said:


> Are you saying that orange looking thing is a diamond ???
> It certainly does not look any thing like a traditional diamond .



i know thats why i got it i was told he hasnt sold many kept them for himself


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## steve6610 (Sep 28, 2007)

dickyknee said:


> Are you saying that orange looking thing is a diamond ???
> It certainly does not look any thing like a traditional diamond .



thats the hard part, i know where that diamond came from, and the guy bought it from matt bonnett, it was talked about on another site and matt posted and said it was from his high yellow diamonds, just goes to show that after all the pics, there are still a few that are not what we think...............


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## pugsly (Sep 28, 2007)

The thing is though..

I dont understand why people buy Diamonds, which look like Intergrades?? Whats the point? Just buy an intergrade if thats what you wanted, I dont see a Diamond that looks like its a Port Mac as something special, quite the contrary, but thats just me I guess..

I kinda want my Diamonds, looking like Diamonds..


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## jay76 (Sep 28, 2007)

pugsly said:


> The thing is though..
> 
> I dont understand why people buy Diamonds, which look like Intergrades?? Whats the point? Just buy an intergrade if thats what you wanted, I dont see a Diamond that looks like its a Port Mac as something special, quite the contrary, but thats just me I guess..
> 
> I kinda want my Diamonds, looking like Diamonds..



they go bright yellow when they get older and why have the same looking snakes as everyone else


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## pugsly (Sep 29, 2007)

Na fair enough mate.

As I said each to there own.

Well here is a chart I knocked up quickly, I have triple the amount of pics of different pythons, but hell, its friday night I was OVER IT!


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## dickyknee (Sep 29, 2007)

pugsly said:


> The thing is though..
> 
> I dont understand why people buy Diamonds, which look like Intergrades?? Whats the point? Just buy an intergrade if thats what you wanted, I dont see a Diamond that looks like its a Port Mac as something special, quite the contrary, but thats just me I guess..
> 
> I kinda want my Diamonds, looking like Diamonds..



Agree with that one Pugsly ......
I like PM's myself and if i wanted some thing that looks like one i would buy a PM .........

I can see this is just the beginning of the diamond / intergrade / hybrid argument and it is only going to get worse .


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## Rosemary (Sep 29, 2007)

First three are pure intergragdes probably from the Port macquarie area or a little further south. Last 2 are diamonds


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## cockney red (Sep 29, 2007)

*Brilliant thread. Fantastic snakes! whatever they are. would say i probably got 99% right, but then i am a "DP EXPERT" *


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## waruikazi (Sep 29, 2007)

I'm curious. 

What's peoples opinion on crossing different localities of diamonds? From all of Your pics Pugs i'm developing an opinion that there is no definate geographic range of DP's and coastals, just a continuous and gradual change in appearance. So would a diamond have to be locality specific to be a true diamond?


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## pugsly (Sep 29, 2007)

Depends if thats what you want. 

Personally, I would want a Wollongong bred to a Wollongong, and a Gosford to a Gosford, but, if the two are similar in appearance, then it wouldnt matter.

There are 2 black slugmonsters in there for example, 1 from Kangaroo Valley and one from Wisemens Ferry. I wouldnt have an issue breeding them. But I dont think I would put 2 that look nothin alike together, thats just my preference though.

As long as its got teh diamond characteristics I dont see the problem in breeding a Douglas Park to a Bulli.


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## waruikazi (Sep 29, 2007)

But then would you extend that opinion to putting a known intergrade over an intergrade looking diamond? Or vice versa?


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## wicked reptiles (Sep 29, 2007)

That took me ages to read and I think I may finally be starting to understand the differences, a little.


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## mrsshep77 (Sep 29, 2007)

That chat's pretty awesome Pugsly!!! Hmmmm it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't do much of a friday night!! hehe!!

I'm seeing the difference too and the gradual change from South to North! The more south you go it seems the rosettes are smaller too or is that just another variable??? 

I agree with you Pugsly in saying that I'd prefer to breed either same localities or if locality is unknown then the most similar looking diamonds! When we were looking for a mate for Miss Erwin we went for as close to her markings as possible.... but finding a complete b&W was ALOT harder than I first thought! Well one for sale that is!! So I hope when my 2 breed that they throw more of Miss Erwin's b&w colours!!!

Thanks for sharing your pics everyone.... I know now why I love diamonds sooooo much!!
Cheers,
Mell


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## nightowl (Sep 29, 2007)

IMO, at this stage, while so many people regard 'Intergrades' as a hybrid, breeders should concentrate on breeding locale specific animals. This way you know that the clutch from that particular pair is pure. While there are intergrades being bred with diamonds that look like an intergrades, the confusion will continue and the hybrid debate will continually be brought up.


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