# QLD DES to ban Perenties and many other species



## Stompsy (May 31, 2018)

Hey guys!

Does anyone know anything about this? 

Someone on my Instagram posted it and after a little investigation, it seems QLD DES are trying to pass a new law banning people from keeping Perenties and a long list of other species. From what I can determine (there’s not a lot of information available) they plan to do this to manage illegal importation of the species on the lists. 

Anyone privy to other info about this at all?


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## Mick666 (May 31, 2018)

I found this. 


https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/plants-animals/wildlife-permits/framework-review


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## cris (May 31, 2018)

It is a sad joke how mentally retarded and ignorant these lowlifes are. A bunch of useless morons creating more stupid regulations to justify their sad existence.
[doublepost=1527740238,1527739929][/doublepost]I can imagine many people will just write off all their animals as dead and not bother to comply with this BS. It seems like an excellent way to increase the black market, which will also increase the trade of exotic species.

While it does not shock me, I have trouble understanding how stupid some people are.
[doublepost=1527741530][/doublepost]Having a look at it, it appears they have already made up their mind and are consulting just to be seen to pretend to be interested. I was actually planning to cut back my captive collection and keep only a few small monitors and maybe some perenties. If this gets through I probably won't bother keeping anything at all.


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## longirostris (May 31, 2018)

I think Qld DES has succumbed to pressure from other state wildlife bodies to tidy up perceived loose practices with respect to off schedule and new species coming into and then going out of that state.

The focus by all wildlife authorities in Australia that take from the wild does irreparable damage to species populations where collection takes place is ironic to say the least. I say ironic because as I have said many times on this subject there are any number of more damaging activities and causes that impact wildlife populations well before collection for private keepers and hobbyists

One need only take a look at Qld and their rampant land clearing activities that have been going on for decades to see the irony I am talking about. How many millions of animals have actually perished as a result of the ball and chain land clearing process they use to clear land. Now consider the millions upon millions of animals that have died as a result of road kill, not just in QLD, but everywhere and whilst we are at it, lets have a think about the tens of millions more that are being killed every year by feral cats.

Like I keep saying take from the wild as a contributor to species mortality rates is so far down the list of causes that the continued focus on trying to stamp it out is ridiculous. The cost to all of us including ordinary taxpayers who have nothing to do with wildlife keeping is not commensurate with the outcomes being targeted.

If the wildlife authorities really think that take from the wild is as serious a threat to species populations as they make it out to be then why not control it properly by licensing it and make it easier for people to do the right thing. I have no problem with collect permits and paying for them, quite honestly I think it is the right thing to do for all concerned. Remember every species that is in captivity today had its origins in the wild.

Mark Hawker


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## Stompsy (May 31, 2018)

Mick666 said:


> I found this.
> 
> 
> https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/plants-animals/wildlife-permits/framework-review


Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for. Interestingly enough, it reminds me of the NSW system. We’ll see what happens during the consultation period.


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## cris (May 31, 2018)

Is there any info on the species class lists?



longirostris said:


> If the wildlife authorities really think that take from the wild is as serious a threat to species populations as they make it out to be then why not control it properly by licensing it and make it easier for people to do the right thing. I have no problem with collect permits and paying for them, quite honestly I think it is the right thing to do for all concerned. Remember every species that is in captivity today had its origins in the wild.



If populations were considered to be under threat from illegal wild capture for the legal trade, they could target those species with genetic testing and target the people responsible. I would be interested to hear of a situation where collection for the legal market in Qld has been linked to the decline of an endangered species or population. This all sounds like BS, I would be interested to hear of any reliable source claiming otherwise, I would be willing to bet there is zero evidence.

I really doubt it won't go through without any significant change. My post above is a very watered down version of my thoughts on the issue.


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## RoryBreaker (May 31, 2018)

Yep its quite depressing really.

The reptile hobby is an easy target though. Everyone hates everyone within the hobby and in qld at least, there are no clubs/societies etc with a history of lobbying government. No representative bodies. The closest we have is the petshop industry association and their agenda is quite different to us hobbyists. 

In the the other corner, there are well funded groups like rspca, animals australia/liberation , peta etc who actively and regularly lobby government. And they have plenty of coin to match, you only have to see their billboard advertising pushing their other agendas. They probably even donate to political parties to help peddle their influence.

I get modernising licence requirements, eg online realtime lodgements but this wholesale change snowballing towards us is madness. Whats the end goal? Stopping wild take? To take the money out of the hobby?
Its already happened. The cost of heating a lot of animals has skyrocketed and most of the prices for animals are now the lowest ever. You have to nuts to be bothered risking grabbing gear out of the big paddock and then the extra costs of heating, caging, parasite treatment etc..
Those busted recently with car loads of critters, they weren't for the domestic market, but destined to jump on a plane/boat whatever to go overseas. One only has to look at what the numbers of funky Ozzie stuff that has been paraded by keepers internationally in the last few years. Surely someone is joining the dots.

And at the end of the day, what impact we as a hobby have on the herp populations anyway is minuscule compared to the amount of road kill, those killed in land clearing and the decimation caused by the mining industry. Eg. See adani's future impact on the Ornamental Snake and Yakka skink.

I'm going to have a bit more of a think before i submit my response to their consultation process. Bring on the revolution I say. Maybe we can mobilize, cause there is no interest like self interest!


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## cris (May 31, 2018)

RoryBreaker said:


> I'm going to have a bit more of a think before i submit my response to their consultation process. Bring on the revolution I say. Maybe we can mobilize, cause there is no interest like self interest!



The survey is anonymous, it would be a good idea to do it as many times as you can. When you look at how it is written it seems pretty clear they have made their mind up. There is absolutely zero chance they will take anything I would suggest into consideration. 

As far as an actual submission, I honestly doubt they would even read it, but worth having a go anyway.


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## dragonlover1 (May 31, 2018)

that is a pretty hard line they are taking,no breeding unless you have the uber expensive advanced license and no more than 5 animals ? That is ridiculous, even worse than the recent attempt by NSW boofocrats to boot heel us .
I have animals covering 17 species and do minimal breeding under my R2 license which costs about $60 per year.


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## Stompsy (Jun 1, 2018)

cris said:


> The survey is anonymous, it would be a good idea to do it as many times as you can. When you look at how it is written it seems pretty clear they have made their mind up. There is absolutely zero chance they will take anything I would suggest into consideration.
> 
> As far as an actual submission, I honestly doubt they would even read it, but worth having a go anyway.


A bunch of herpers submitting random suggestions is going to do sweet fa. The document covers everything, down to revenue raised from licensing, so whoever is lobbying against it, will need to come up with a similar document.... and unfortunately, I don't see that happening in less than 4 weeks. It's a massive change to spring on the Queensland herping community... especially those who have big collections or breed a lot of animals.

The classes are a little confusing and I find it ridiculous that the basic license covers 5 reptiles only. If this does pass, I have a funny feeling there will be lots and lots of 'accidental' breeding happening.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

Don't be defeatist about this. NSW was facing a similar situation until a month ago when the entire pet-keeping community galvanised into action, leading to the Minister sending the proposals back to the idealogically driven authors, for a complete rewrite, and indicating that it had to be done in consultation with those who would be affected. Don't bother dealing with the bureaucrats, go straight to their political masters. The Qld government has a very slim margin of power, and licensed Qld keepers (remember this isn't just herp keepers) must run into many thousands - you can exert influence, especially as this new crap is so far off the wall when it comes to reality...

Jamie


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## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

pythoninfinite said:


> Don't be defeatist about this. NSW was facing a similar situation until a month ago when the entire pet-keeping community galvanised into action, leading to the Minister sending the proposals back to the idealogically driven authors, for a complete rewrite, and indicating that it had to be done in consultation with those who would be affected. Don't bother dealing with the bureaucrats, go straight to their political masters. The Qld government has a very slim margin of power, and licensed Qld keepers (remember this isn't just herp keepers) must run into many thousands - you can exert influence, especially as this new crap is so far off the wall when it comes to reality...
> 
> Jamie



I'm not saying it is impossible, but I don't think you understand how the Qld Labor party functions. It will be claimed as a victory for conservation and most voters will believe it. Their interest in consultation and developing better policy was clearly shown with their vegetation laws. With the vegetation laws they could have easily taken a reasonable approach that achieved positive outcomes without screwing over heaps of people as much as they did.

Conservation was not the aim, just the headline to get votes from ignorant people. If you talk to the average person they will think the vegetation laws are a good thing, if you explain what the laws are they generally say surely they can't do that.

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. How many keepers of birds and reptiles even know about these proposed changes?

You make a good point about contacting the government, here are the details for the relevant minister

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/members/current/list/MemberDetails?ID=3451737636
https://www.facebook.com/leeanneenochmp/
https://twitter.com/LeeanneEnoch

I will post another thread specifically for the new laws.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

Not just the Minister, contact your local members. If they feel pressure, they will put pressure on the Minister as well.

Jamie


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## longirostris (Jun 1, 2018)

pythoninfinite said:


> Don't be defeatist about this. NSW was facing a similar situation until a month ago when the entire pet-keeping community galvanised into action, leading to the Minister sending the proposals back to the idealogically driven authors, for a complete rewrite, and indicating that it had to be done in consultation with those who would be affected. Don't bother dealing with the bureaucrats, go straight to their political masters. The Qld government has a very slim margin of power, and licensed Qld keepers (remember this isn't just herp keepers) must run into many thousands - you can exert influence, especially as this new crap is so far off the wall when it comes to reality...
> 
> Jamie



Hi Jamie,

I wasn't aware of the situation in NSW and the rewrite, can you tell us briefly how the pet owners managed to effect the outcomes and what they were. This is hopefully a good outcome, because I think there is a definite push at NSW NPWS to demonise any body who wants anything outside what they want to do. I have asked repeatedly for a paper returns book to lodge my returns with and they just keep ignoring me. Recently I have lodged an import permit application and they appear to be ignoring that too, in spite of the 2 emails I have sent them about it.

Mark Hawker


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

Hi Mark, basically what the DPI in NSW wanted to do was to categorise anyone with birds, mammals and reptiles in NSW as a pet dealer if they bred anything. It meant that everyone who had a pet of any kind had to meet the requirements that those who run pet shops have to meet. And it was done without any consultation with those who would be affected by it. Just plain bloody stupid. If you had a couple of budgies, or a bluetongue or two, you were caught up in this bloody great net. The birdkeepers (in particular), and herpers joined forces and became very vocal, lobbying the Minister, local members and others with influence. The Minister, realising that there were over 30,000 bird and reptile keepers alone who were outraged at the lack of notice and the lack of consultation, decided it was too hot to handle and threw it back to DPI for a total rethink, done IN COLLABORATION with keepers. We suspect there is a personal agenda driving this stuff - the animal rights people have infiltrated these government departments and are pushing their own agendas. This will be an ongoing and increasing problem for us as time goes by...

Have a look on Facebook for the Herpetological Cooperative NSW (HCN) and you will see a whole new body of representatives from all the herp clubs in NSW, who got together because of this bullshit, and who will be advocating for keepers and an entirely different and more open working relationship with these hitherto secretive and bullying departments.

I believe paper books are now phased out (pity those who don't use electronic communications), but I will confirm that later. It seems that because of big changes coming to the regs in NSW, the transactions you mention have just ground to a halt. It's not good enough, and if I was you I would be contacting the director to seek satisfaction. If the people at desk level aren't doing their job, go higher. Good luck

Jamie


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 1, 2018)

If this proposal goes through it won't be that much different from WA's ridiculous licensing system. Is the fee yearly? A yearly fee of $682.90 for an advanced licence? That's more expensive than a category 5 licence in Western Australia, which is $300 a year. Although it's cheaper than a farmer's licence in Western Australia, which is $1000 a year. Without the farmer's licence WA keepers can only sell one clutch per year.

First NSW, and now this. Such buffoonery the government loves to partake in. Why don't they actually do something useful with their time? Excuse the GIF, but I think it sums up the government and their ludicrous concoctions quite nicely. 







Edit: Read further links. So it's not a yearly fee.


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## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> If this proposal goes through it won't be that much different from WA's ridiculous licensing system. Is the fee yearly? A yearly fee of $682.90 for an advanced licence? That's more expensive than a category 5 licence in Western Australia, which is $300 a year. Although it's cheaper than a farmer's licence in Western Australia, which is $1000 a year. Without the farmer's licence WA keepers can only sell one clutch per year.



That is for 3 years, my math was wrong, but it is still a massive increase of cost to people who want to follow the law.


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 1, 2018)

Still better than WA at any rate. Hope you guys can send the silly proposal packing.


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## Tobe404 (Jun 1, 2018)

I bet SA soon follows suit... Sadly.


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 1, 2018)

longirostris said:


> Hi Jamie,
> 
> I wasn't aware of the situation in NSW and the rewrite, can you tell us briefly how the pet owners managed to effect the outcomes and what they were. This is hopefully a good outcome, because I think there is a definite push at NSW NPWS to demonise any body who wants anything outside what they want to do. I have asked repeatedly for a paper returns book to lodge my returns with and they just keep ignoring me. Recently I have lodged an import permit application and they appear to be ignoring that too, in spite of the 2 emails I have sent them about it.
> 
> Mark Hawker


here is the facebook group that forced the minister to back off, Pet Owners R NOT Pet Shops . People power at work.
As for paper lodgement books ;forget it and buy a PC ! The only paper used by boofocrats is toilet paper.
And as for answering your emails, they are severely under-staffed so don't hold your breath. When I wanted to upgrade my license to R2 it took nearly 6 months.


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## longirostris (Jun 1, 2018)

dragonlover1 said:


> here is the facebook group that forced the minister to back off, Pet Owners R NOT Pet Shops . People power at work.
> As for paper lodgement books ;forget it and buy a PC ! The only paper used by boofocrats is toilet paper.
> And as for answering your emails, they are severely under-staffed so don't hold your breath. When I wanted to upgrade my license to R2 it took nearly 6 months.



They still have paper returns booklets, they just don't want us to use them. They're happy to send me a paper returns booklet for off schedule species that I am holding but only a five page booklet which just covers the off schedule individuals. The problem for me with the electronic return is it is totally inflexible and does not allow for any comments I may want to make about anything like genera name changes or species name changes etc. If there was a comments section next to each species in the electronic reporting system for any additional comments I may wish to make and a blank section where I could report off schedule species held then I would have no problem with using it. Obviously I already have a computer or else I wouldn't be sitting here responding to your comment. I am not sure calling them boofocrats is going to win you very many plaudits with them. As for being seriously understaffed, I am well aware of this. They have been understaffed for years and still managed. I thought that lodging applications via email sped up the process and usually in the past it has been generally very good. I can't wait six months, six weeks or even six days for that matter, I have animals waiting for shipment in Darwin being held up by the approval of an Import permit from NPWS that I have no idea if they have even received or when they will process it. I am just trying to look after the welfare of the animals and mitigate as much stress for them as possible. I would have thought that they would be mindful of this as well and address these applications as a matter of urgency. We are constantly advised by them through various media that their focus is the welfare of wildlife in private keepers hands so I think I have every right to expect processing of a straight forward import application for species that ARE on the scheduled species list to be processed in a few days. Other jurisdictions can facilitate this process in a few hours but we have to wait days even weeks sometimes for something that I have always said in my view shouldn't even exist. But that is another story 

Mark Hawker


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