# axolotls



## cris (Aug 17, 2006)

Im thinking about getting some axolotls. Does anyone here know anything about getting them to metamorphosise?
I have read that iodine concentrations and water levels play a important role, but i have also read that even that may not workj as some have aparently lost the ability to metamorphosise.
Any ideas or knowledge would be appreciated.

thanks


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Aug 17, 2006)

> Ambystoma mexicanum
> MEXICAN WALKING FISH
> The Mexican Walking Fish is a most fascinating creature, looking and often acting, like miniature pre-historic monsters. They can grow to a size of up to 30cm. These animals are often kept as pets, in homes, all over the world and are extensively used for study as laboratory animals. A little known fact is that the natives of Mexico have used the roasted axolotol as food since pre-Aztec times.
> 
> ...


this is from a website but ive heard they can be injected with hormones to make them morph though their life is shortened by morphing or metamorphising
naturally they morph when the water they live in drops to such a level that they have to..
these were the first animals to be cloned back in the 40s i think.
baz

From the Mods: Please reference all information please (i.e., provide a link)


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## JasonL (Aug 17, 2006)

I tried years ago with the water reduction, it didn't work. Hormone treatment would though.


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## Cuzzy (Aug 17, 2006)

Had one and they dont do a lot. And have a short life span and foul there water quickly.
But can those fish move when they want too. They have a piosion gland at the rear of there head. Wont kill you but can leave a nasty itch and tast. Love cold water and were found in a cave in Mexico


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## nickvelez (Aug 17, 2006)

why are they being called fish? they're amphibians - exotics too. 
don't you need an exotic licence? Is keeping axolotls permitted?
what about african clawed toads - also commonly bred in the lab?
it has been suggested that Xenopus (the african clawed toad) has been responsible for spreading amphibian diseases around the world.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Aug 17, 2006)

> Had one and they dont do a lot. And have a short life span and foul there water quickly.


i bred them for years and got heaps of enjoyment out of them.they live for 10 to20 yrs easily, i never had problems with water quality,,oh yeh and they arnt fish..nick, they have been in australia for 70 yrs and most pet shops sell them.
baz


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## JasonL (Aug 17, 2006)

mine lived for years...................untill I tried to morph them  but my daughter has one now, my wife hates it!


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## Basssman (Aug 17, 2006)

when i was in Adelaide in september a few of the aquarium shops were selling salamanders i asked how they changed them from axalotls and they wouldnt tell me LOL

cheers Sam


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## JasonL (Aug 17, 2006)

Hormones, they is also used widely for breeding green tree frogs.


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## alienpunk (Aug 17, 2006)

it worked for me with water reduction.....and i used a heat pad under a large stone which had lotsa basking space.....then the cat caught on....bye bye Axey


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## alienpunk (Aug 17, 2006)

oh yeah in regards to fouling the water quickly....i think thats more due to the bloodworms decomposing super fast.....JMO


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## Australis (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: RE: axolotls*



byup said:


> when i was in Adelaide in september a few of the aquarium shops were selling salamanders i asked how they changed them from axalotls and they wouldnt tell me LOL
> 
> cheers Sam




They werent Newts by any chance?


Matt


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## olivehydra (Aug 17, 2006)

This is a poor pic of Helmut. Had him healthy and happy for over 8 years in his morphed state.


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## JasonL (Aug 17, 2006)

I remember when you could buy newts from Cronulla aquarium, they also had turtles on display.........oh God I'm getting old :cry:


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## Basssman (Aug 17, 2006)

thats what they had in adelaide like the pic
salamanders it said on the enclosure 
one of the shops that had them was fish haven


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## alienpunk (Aug 17, 2006)

damn i remember the turtles in Cronulla aquarium in the early 90's.....guess that makes me a little oldschool too mate

lets meet up for a game of bowls and a drink at the RSL


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## cris (Aug 17, 2006)

How did you get helmut to morph?
how long do they live in larvae state compared to "adult" form?
What do you feed them on after they morph?


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## Australis (Aug 17, 2006)

JasonL said:


> I remember when you could buy newts from Cronulla aquarium, they also had turtles on display.........oh God I'm getting old :cry:




It wasnt that long ago i saw little black newts for sale in Petshops around the Central Coast, NSW.

Also a few with Turtles on display :shock: 


Matt


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## JasonL (Aug 17, 2006)

> of bowls


not that old! but anytime for the drink :wink:


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## cris (Aug 17, 2006)

> I remember when you could buy newts from Cronulla aquarium, they also had turtles on display.........oh God I'm getting old


They were selling newts at a brisbane petshop about 10 years ago but they detered me from buying them with the usual rip off tactics eg. they only eat our blood worms or they will die etc. :roll:


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## olivehydra (Aug 17, 2006)

cris said:


> How did you get helmut to morph?
> how long do they live in larvae state compared to "adult" form?
> What do you feed them on after they morph?



he was fed thyroxine from memory. Dont know about lifespan but he is now 12. He eats crickets, fish and yabbies. He has to be hand fed because he couldnt catch a cold (a little stupid I think :wink: )


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## JasonL (Aug 17, 2006)

> a little stupid I think )


mostly blind, have good sense of smell (in the water at least) probably why they don't want to morph.


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## Gobo (Aug 17, 2006)

You used to be able to get them here in Adelaide and they did use a hormone to induce metomorphosis but due to this RSPCA or the Animal Welfare Committee brought in a law that stopped this under the cruelty to animals act thus making selling them these days in SA illegal. although every now and then you see them advertised interstate at a high price i might mention.


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## cwarren72 (Aug 17, 2006)

there is a difference between the slamander and axolotls. The walking fish that we know doesn't have the ability to morph. The salamander does however. They look very similar in the neonate stage though. They are illegal to keep in the N.T.


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## cris (Aug 17, 2006)

> there is a difference between the slamander and axolotls. The walking fish that we know doesn't have the ability to morph. The salamander does however. They look very similar in the neonate stage though. They are illegal to keep in the N.T.


are you sure they are the same species i think?


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## Strange1 (Aug 17, 2006)

Yeap they are the same, most of the local petshops around here are selling them morphed now for massive $$$

I remember a local petshop selling newts and green tree frogs not that many years ago (Im only 24)


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## KiwiJohn (Aug 18, 2006)

*morphing ax's*

Ive done this back in about 1965 in Woonona a small town near Wollongong and got the ax's to morph to salamanders
From memory , First I got them to breed . Put a pair in a 2 foot aquarium with lots of weed.about 6 inches of water. lower the water about an inch a week to simulate a dry season. then when you are down to about 2" of water fill the tank to about 3/4 full rapidly and add big chunks of ice.
you are simulating the glacial floods which kick off them breeding in Mexico. it works .
they lay within days.
stringy eggs and slime bit like a canetoad. I removed most of the plants with eggs and left the adults in the tank and started to lower the water again for a second breeding round . 
Then I wanted salamanders and put heaps of leaf litter in and just let the water evaporate.I cant remember the time frame but they stop eating and morph relatively quickly.

Hope this is of help


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## GreatSage (Aug 19, 2006)

*RE: morphing ax*

My uncle did it several times when we where younger and he did it by feeding them a "Thiroid" treatment tabet
from memory it changed really quick, couple of days? Bu the did it several times I remember cause at the time
it was the coolest thing I'd seen, except fo Mr.Ed but seriousley what cooler than you own talking horse???


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## hornet (Aug 19, 2006)

*RE: morphing ax*

so are axolotls the only exotic amphibian you can get in aus or can we get other newts and salamanders?


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## Oleo251 (Sep 4, 2006)

*RE: morphing ax*

sorry guys to disapoint and not having a shot here but they don't and more to the point can't morph....there is a difference between the two.. I even went and reconfirmed with a bloke I know who has been breeding them for years just in case I got it wrong but definately they can't. Also just as a bit of info the sperm is deposited and then the eggs are laid in it similar to salmon...can be as many as 500 at a time.


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## Rep-Style (Sep 4, 2006)

*RE: morphing ax*

Sold at a highpriceis right lol, yay aftermy salamander post last nightive finally found somebody else who keeps these freaky lil critters, Olivehydra do you have a pic of his enclosure?


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## Gregory (Sep 4, 2006)

*RE: morphing ax*

I used to morph them very successfully back in the late 70's early 80's using Thyroxin which is a thyroid drug. They even won the amphibian section at The Aquarium Society of NSW fish shows. They're much more interesting when they're morphed I reckon.




Cheers, Greg.


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## W.T.BUY (Sep 6, 2006)

*RE: morphing ax*

do u have any morphed ones for sale how much


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## Rep-Style (Sep 6, 2006)

*RE: morphing ax*

The only placesi know ov downhere whohaveor do stock them morphed are, Upmarket pets, pails n mrw


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## W.T.BUY (Sep 23, 2006)

Been There On Holidays They Wanted $150 Each


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## nzdragons (Oct 9, 2006)

make sure if u get the thyroxin you get the natural form, there is a synthetic form as well...
vets have it and it is relatively cheap. I can't remember the dosage, but it was half a tablet every 3 days with food and gradually lower the water level over 2 months. I found it best to have the axolotyls sitting on an undergravel plate that was raised off the bottom of the tank by placing it on a brick. have a good internal filter sitting under the under gravel plate to aid in oxygenation and keeping the water clean as I have heard this is especially important during metamorphosis. they look cool and seem healthy but are not very active.. if you change over the true gold ones, not the albino, the salamder has wicked gold dots.


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## Sanchez (Oct 9, 2006)

Gobo said:


> You used to be able to get them here in Adelaide and they did use a hormone to induce metomorphosis but due to this RSPCA or the Animal Welfare Committee brought in a law that stopped this under the cruelty to animals act thus making selling them these days in SA illegal. although every now and then you see them advertised interstate at a high price i might mention.




There are salamanders at Glossop pet shop in South Australia. I seen them there about 4 days ago $130 each


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## Ambystoma (Nov 11, 2006)

An interesting string of conversation , yes you can still metamorphose Axolotls.
Just a bit of history , 
I used to breed Axolotls though the 70's & 80's , ranging from Whites, Albinos, Gold, Mottle, Slates & coffee coloured , but only transformed the white, Mottle & slate adults , as well as Gold Babies ( which I sold to St George Aquarium ).
My eldest Axolotl lived for 21 years, though my morphs life span ranged from 7.5-9 years , which is still a good innings.
Sure they don't 'do much, but at feeding time would jump at the food , mouth open with a sqeeking sound, which I found quite amazing.
In those days I had the opportunity working in the Herpetological section of the Australian museum , with my love for frogs, though I only knew of one other person who transformed Axys.
Anyway, there has been a lot of water under the bridge since then & I've started transforming a Slate , as he'd a bit savage towards the other Axolotls I have. 
All signs so far are good , eyes protruding, fin & gill reduction , skin roughening etc , it is a slow process , takes about a month , as if its done too quick , they will die pretty fast .
Being my first for many years , I'll probably be keeping this one, but I will have others in various stages which I will eventually sell .
Also , I'm keen to hear from anyone who has recently seen Newts for Sale , either the European or Japanese or ? , that I used to breed as well , but haven't been able to see any of late .


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## cyclamen (Nov 11, 2006)

my brother has had them before heaps. and they all die of fungal diseasese.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 11, 2006)

there are some transformed axies for sale at the australian bird co.in springvale rd .they seem healthy enough...
i think i like them better with the gills.


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## cris (Nov 11, 2006)

Ambystoma said:


> Also , I'm keen to hear from anyone who has recently seen Newts for Sale , either the European or Japanese or ? , that I used to breed as well , but haven't been able to see any of late .



They are illegal now.


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## timthevet (Nov 11, 2006)

Check this website out: http://www.axolotl.org/tiger_salamander.htm
Sounds like hormonal treatment can work if done before maturity. If done after maturity then it seems to kill them. Would want to know the right dose of hormones though cos an overdose could also kill them.


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## Tatelina (Nov 15, 2006)

melgalea said:


> my brother has had them before heaps. and they all die of fungal diseasese.



You're the only person to say that. interesting.. well to me anyway.


I haven't seen any axolotls for sale in Sydney for a few years now.


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Wow that is fascinating! I never knew axolotls were the pre-stage to salamanders. Here in Perth, my local pet store sells axys for $25 each, mite give metamorphosis a go these hols!


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## Veredus (Nov 22, 2006)

Timotei said:


> Wow that is fascinating! I never knew axolotls were the pre-stage to salamanders. Here in Perth, my local pet store sells axys for $25 each, mite give metamorphosis a go these hols!



They aren't, axolotls are a specific species of salamander that has evolved so that they are sexually mature during the final phases of their larval stage but not all larval salamanders are axolotls.


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Hmm, well a bit of mixed opinion on this matter, could someone give me a taxonomic variant ? I would trust that above everything.


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## Oxyuranus microlepid (Dec 10, 2006)

Australis said:


> It wasnt that long ago i saw little black newts for sale in Petshops around the Central Coast, NSW.
> 
> Also a few with Turtles on display :shock:
> 
> ...


 

how long ago andwhere?!?!:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Oxyuranus microlepid (Dec 10, 2006)

KiwiJohn said:


> Ive done this back in about 1965 in Woonona a small town near Wollongong and got the ax's to morph to salamanders
> From memory , First I got them to breed . Put a pair in a 2 foot aquarium with lots of weed.about 6 inches of water. lower the water about an inch a week to simulate a dry season. then when you are down to about 2" of water fill the tank to about 3/4 full rapidly and add big chunks of ice.
> you are simulating the glacial floods which kick off them breeding in Mexico. it works .
> they lay within days.
> ...


 
do they need basking spots,
water swimming areas,
heat? etc


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## gaara (Dec 10, 2006)

mate you basically just set it up like you would for a tiger salamander. They dont need a partition of land and water, they are terrestrial. They only need a water dish to drink from. This also maintains humidity which they need. They need to be kept at a temperature of ideally 24 degrees C. They eat crickets, worms, etc. Live food only. 

Tiger salamanders bury themselves into the soil but my morphed axie is lazy and just sits ontop of the soil, underneath a hide I gave him. 

If you give them any kind of water dish they need to be able to climb out to save themselves from drowning. They may have been axie's at one point, but now they breath air!

They dont need "basking" areas as they dont really like light too much. Nor do they need heat as I mentioned earlier. They don't breed in captivity.

When creating their vivarium, use organic native soil, or something with a neutral PH, of about 7 to 7.6. Do not use peat or sphagnum moss as it is too acidic and will harm their skin.

change their water dish every 3 days, and change the soil every 2 months. You might want to add plants like ferns to the tank.

Every morning and every night get a water sprayer and "mist" the entire tank. The soil shouldn't be mud, but it shouldn't be dry either - you want a soft "crumbly" substrate.

Any more questions just pm me.


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## jimbo (Dec 10, 2006)

they sell salamanders at amazing amazon - this is their trading post add. but whether they have any at the moment i do not know.
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/itemi...ing+amazon_state_9_stpg_1_subs_Pets+&+Horses_


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## gaara (Dec 10, 2006)

those are morphed axolotls, but not real salamanders. If only!


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## dingosarah (Jan 22, 2007)

isnt thyroxine a prescription only medication? how are all these people getting it?


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## gaara (Jan 22, 2007)

most people (ie those that do not know vets) would just use the tablet form, and administer to the water.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jan 22, 2007)

I think its cruel to try & metamorph an animal thats meant to stay in its larval stage.
Especially when usually the results are a dead animal. I have avoided this thread up untill now because on the other Axey threads I was argued against for suggesting they do not morph (which they do not under normal circumstances). If they do by drug inducement I do not know as I have never been sadistic enough to find out. But from what I have heard & read apparently MANY do not morph at all, they die. Those that do morph may be a different species all together, or may not be. Even if they are infact axeys the metamorphing would be a survival reaction only, in which case it is a cruel act to put an animal close to death in order to make it evolve into something it's not. Sooooo, whether they can or not (when forced by man) isn't my argument, what is however is the fact they are not supposed to.


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## gaara (Jan 22, 2007)

Yeah....And? I'm as against morphing as you are; and I've knocked back many pm's asking how to do it. I rescued my morph from a kid who bought it from a pet store. I know my [deleted] when it comes to axolotls (and most caudates), and knew I could provide a good home for my little guy. He's happy, despite being morphed.

Axolotls _can_ morph naturally; but 99% don't as its not something they've evolved to need.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jan 22, 2007)

gaara said:


> Axolotls _can_ morph naturally; but 99% don't as its not something they've evolved to need.



Axolotyls will not morph naturally, they must be forced. Hence many die during the proceedure.
Many people say it is a case of too much inbreeding in captivity which has made the species remain in their larval stage, however they do not morph in their natural wild state either. As you said they have evolved to not needing to morph. Evolution is very slow taking many many years, where as man wants to re-evolve them back to their once natural state in a matter of days/weeks. In most cases it is impossible. And IMO it's just as cruel as taking away an Elapids venom glands


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## Hetty (Jan 22, 2007)

About 3 or 4 years ago I went to Kellyville Pets, and they had what they told me were salamanders. I wanted to buy one but they said they were in really short supply and they couldn't get anymore, and the two they had were not for sale. I can't remember exactly what they looked like as it was a longish time ago, but I think they had stripes.


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## Hetty (Jan 22, 2007)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> Axolotyls will not morph naturally, they must be forced.
> Many people say it is a case of too much inbreeding in captivity which has made the species remain in their larval stage, however they do not morph in their natural wild state either. As you said they have evolved to not needing to morph. Evolution is very slow taking many many years, where as man wants to re-evolve them back to their once natural state in a matter of days/weeks.



I didn't know they could morph before this thread, but it does seem like quite a cruel thing to do.


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## gaara (Jan 22, 2007)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> Axolotyls will not morph naturally, they must be forced. Hence many die during the proceedure.
> Many people say it is a case of too much inbreeding in captivity which has made the species remain in their larval stage, however they do not morph in their natural wild state either. As you said they have evolved to not needing to morph. Evolution is very slow taking many many years, where as man wants to re-evolve them back to their once natural state in a matter of days/weeks. In most cases it is impossible. And IMO it's just as cruel as taking away an Elapids venom glands




lol for once JandC im gonna have to disagree with you - you're commenting in ignorance. Axolotls can morph naturally; its just very rarely occurs. Sometimes the natural surroundings trigger a metamorphosis; such as water drying up, etc. I've seen in person natural morphs; and they differ to "forced morphs". Forced morphs resemble tiger salamanders, where as natural morphs retain more of their original axolotl features. It is hypothesized that some axolotls carry the ability to morph because over a hundred years ago, in france, a tiger salamander (in larval form) was bred with an axolotl; thus creating the Golden yellow axolotls you see in many pet stores today. It is this recessive gene (this is a theory, albeit a logical theory) that many believe allows some axolotls to morph naturally, or by force.

I'm not saying its entirely natural; in that yes, forced morphing generally leads to death, hence why many people choose the strongest, healthiest axolotls (they lose 75% of their body mass during the procedure due to a disinterest in feeding over the months it takes).

Yes, it's cruel, and yes, if I met someone who did it for fun or money I'd give 'em what for, but I'm not about to be corrected on something I _know_ to be true.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jan 22, 2007)

I am commenting on what I have heard & read. And if this is incorrect then I do appreciate other suggestions & opinions from yourself (I am open minded). Not arguing and hopefully not being ignorant on this subject. Although I do find scientific studies & published documents to be more creditable than the word of a forum member I do not know personally (no offence) but I will still listen to what you have to say. Even though your comments have contradicted themselves, you agree its cruel and that they are not meant to morph, yet you imply it is natural and some do so on their own accord. 

AFAIK they do not morph in their natural envoirnment because there is no need to 
(you pretty much agreed with this to a point but insist 1% of the population does) But imo dry seasons arn't a problem as far as I am aware, their natural waterways do not become a complete land mass. If that was an issue they would have never evolved to begin with and this contributes to both our theories that they do not need to morph in either wild populations or captive specimens.

There has been studies on the species in the wild that have formed the basis that they do not morph at all (again due to no need of morphing, hence there is so much writings about them being the only species to live their entire lives in larval stage). 

In your words you also agree that many die during metamorphous. This to me suggests again that they are not meant to morph. Evolution was performed for a specific reason here and that is they can live their entire life in water without morphing.

I didn't say they can't morph naturally (as I do not know, I have never been to Mexico or seen wild ones) , what I said was that they won't.


JandC_Reptiles said:


> Axolotyls will not morph naturally, they must be forced.


 If you read that correctly you will see I am not implying it to be impossible, just stating that in order for it to happen there must be human intervention (as their native habitat is not under threat of drying up etc) and once again there is no reason for them to morph hence they have evolved into neoteny?


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jan 22, 2007)

If you like do a search on Lake Xochimilco and Lake Chalco.
Check the size of the waterways in both wet & dry seasons. These are the natural waters of Axolotyls. And although much smaller than many years ago are still very large systems which could never in our life-time lose enough volume to induce morphing as you have suggested. As I said they would have to be forced.


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## Hickson (Jan 22, 2007)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> hence there is so much writings about them being the only species to live their entire lives in larval stage.


This is not correct.

There are several species of salamander that exhibit neoteny. One species, _Dicamptodon copei,_ has only ever been found in nature in the larval stage. Adults have been metamorphosed in captivity with hormone treatments.



Hix


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jan 23, 2007)

Just done a search and I stand corrected.

Apparently the conditions that lead to neoteny are high-altitude, lack of predation in the water, and dry conditions outside the water. Most neotenic populations belong to the Tiger Salamander complex of Ambystoma - Ambystoma tigrinum, Ambystoma velasci, Ambystoma mavortium, and their close relatives. 

However you are correct in that there is several wholly neotenic species including the Axolotl, Ambystoma taylori, Ambystoma andersoni, and Ambystoma dumerilii.z and as you suggested Dicamptodon copei 

*Ok well none of the above should be morphed than, and my argument stil stands  *


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