# What kind of Bearded Dragon do we have?



## Torti (Jul 24, 2014)

Hi folks,
Our little Bearded Dragon is now 9month old. The guy I got him from identified him as a Central Bearded Dragon when we got him back in October as a baby.
But is he possibly a Pygmy?

From the information online and size charts I gather that he is way too small with his 20cm from snout to tail.

He is not a big eater and never wanted to eat more then 4-5 medium woodies a day. He never liked vegetables, I tried to give him different things as suggested on this site. Last week he ate 7 woodies, since then he has not eaten at all. He drinks water though. He sleeps more, but is still active. Is he brumating?

Too me, he looks health and he is reasonably active. He is very fast when moving. For the last 4 weeks he doesn't like to get picked up - always tries to run away.

Any suggestions welcome. Pics attached. Cheers Tor


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## MesseNoire (Jul 24, 2014)

What temperatures are in your tank? Basking spot, hot end and cool end?
How often do you supplement his food with calcium and vitamins?
What UVB are you using?


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## Torti (Jul 24, 2014)

Fractal_man said:


> What temperatures are in your tank? Basking spot, hot end and cool end?
> How often do you supplement his food with calcium and vitamins?
> What UVB are you using?



Dusted the woodies every 3rd feed with calcium and vitamin powder.

The Hot spot is about 32degrees, however he never stays very close to the heat and his favorite spot is hanging somewhere on the back wall,
or on top of the back wall out of the light.

It is a 10% UV bulb.


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## Lawra (Jul 25, 2014)

How are you measuring temperature? I don't keep beardies but through my limited research I've found a basking spot of 38 degrees minimum is ideal - along with providing an adequate heat gradient. 

As a quick aside, you beardie would move around a fair bit in a 24 hour period, most of which you wouldn't be observing him. Don't be too quick to assume a 'favourite' spot


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## Red-Ink (Jul 25, 2014)

Looks like a _P. vitticeps _- Central Bearded dragon to me...


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## MrVic (Jul 25, 2014)

I have this little fella 

View attachment 311562
View attachment 311563


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 25, 2014)

he's a central all right.Pygmies don't actually have a beard so they are easy to spot


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## Torti (Jul 25, 2014)

Ok, so the race seems to be confirmed. Now what could I do to improve his growth?
He is currently running through the room, but he is so hard to spot!


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## agrrr1 (Jul 25, 2014)

I wonder about the people who reply to these posts without a doubt you have a nearly full grown PYGMY dragon(pogona henrylawsoni) & 80% sure it is a female possibly a cross bred but as i have kept both these lizards for a lot of years very confident PYGMY.


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## Beans (Jul 25, 2014)

That's not a pygmy rofl. Its a central.

Try to feed him crickets, as hes still little they would be much easier to digest. Woodies are kinda really hard. Could he be blocked up? What's his poo like?

Put him in the tub for a little, warm water up to about his arm pits. Then just massage his tummy for a few minutes, it can help move any blockages. While doing that feel around for anything that feels hard and lumpy. His basking temps should be about 40ish degrees also. 

Not too sure if its true but beardies, (mine atleast) seem to be attracted to bright colors. So get him some nasturtium flowers. They are yellow orange and bright red, and give him the leaves too. Green beans are a massive love for my beardie, he flips out when he sees me with them haha. Avoid things like citrus and avocado though. Carrot is another winner, spinach too ( not too much maybe once a week) But yeah....Get him onto crickets for now. Woodies could be a bit big for him

EDIT: Roo ( my beardie) never liked his salad really untill I decided to make it look like it was alive, so I would wiggle it around infront of him and he attacked it. Been eating it ever scince.


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## MrVic (Jul 25, 2014)

Is this why it's called a discussion forum? Where people post what they believe or perceive to be correct? 

I'm not into starting flame wars, I'm too old  

For myself personally, I'd love to make an incorrect statement and be corrected. It means I've learnt something (hopefully )


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## butters (Jul 25, 2014)

agrrr1 said:


> I wonder about the people who reply to these posts without a doubt you have a nearly full grown PYGMY dragon(pogona henrylawsoni) & 80% sure it is a female possibly a cross bred but as i have kept both these lizards for a lot of years very confident PYGMY.


I wonder at times too. Definitely a central bearded dragon. Definitely not henrylawsoni. Scalation on the back of the head is consistent with vitticeps.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jul 26, 2014)

It is definitely a henrylawsoni. You can tell by the spines on the back of the head and the head and body shape. I am familiar both, even though we are not allowed to keep them here. Now all you have to do is substitute "vitteceps" for "henrylawson" in the above statement and you have the opposite viewpoint. Both are worth the same in my book. Neither actually describes a diagnostic difference. 

My turn to make a few observations. Someone who posts "It looks species X to me" is doing the right thing. Unless you can give a definitive description of how you arrive at a conclusion it is not really fair on the readers to be strongly assertive about your decision. It often leads to someone ending up with egg on their face (and I have worn my fair share of that and deservedly so) and can also lead to unnecessary conflict. My suggestion is either be less definite or supply an actual description of the distinguishing feature/s - preferably one that would allows the distinction to made by someone else on other animals. 

Back to the question at hand.... 
Young vitteceps and henrylawsoni are very similar. Add to that the fact you are making judgements on less than perfect camera angles for this purpose, and it makes it surprisingly easy to get it wrong. Anyway, to me it definitiely looks like a vitteceps as henrylawsoni do not possess the row of spines across the throat that can seen developing most clearly seen in photo 2. In addition, henrylawsoni have paravertebral and often a veterbral rows of spines on the neck which this individual lacks. Henrylawsoni also tend to have two lateral rows of spines from the lower back extending onto the sides of the base of the tail, also lacking on this individual. I have deliberately omitted head shape due to the camera angles and age.

Blue


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## pinefamily (Jul 26, 2014)

To answer your question on growth, you need to get his basking spot up to 40-42, hot end mid 30's, and cool end mid to high 20's. As juveniles, beardies are notorious for not eating greens. As a rule of thumb, they will eat 80% live food, 20% greens as a juvenile, and these percentages swap around as they get to adulthood.
Get the temps right, swap him onto crickets (at least until he's bigger), and keep offering him a variety of salads and fruits. If he's drinking water, he could be either impacted from the woodies, or a little dehydrated from not eating greens. Try misting him once a day or so with a squirt bottle until he is eating better.
hope this helps.


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## Torti (Jul 26, 2014)

Hi and thx for the replies so far.

The closest spot to the heat lamp is approx 43 degrees, the basking spot on the rocks 39-40deg.

He/she doesn't enjoy her bath when we try to give bath him.

The poo looks as always: White/Black and solid.

He always preferred woodies over crickets - is it worth to try giving crickets?

Attached 3 more pics - maybe better for identification? Cheers


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## Emilie (Jul 26, 2014)

Torti said:


> Hi and thx for the replies so far.
> 
> The closest spot to the heat lamp is approx 43 degrees, the basking spot on the rocks 39-40deg.
> 
> ...


 If its a pygmy its fully grown and not 9 months old. If the age is correct its def not a pygmy. Pygmy and centrals looks very similar at young age, but the size compared to age should be a def give away


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## Beans (Jul 26, 2014)

I had a look just before and you can tell them apart quite easily by the shape of their heads. Pygmys seem to have a smaller more rounded head shape where as centrals appear more triangular in shape, also the lack of beard spines too. On a vitticeps, you can actually feel under the chin that there's a bone which is very thin, which is used to puff the beard out. I'm assuming that because pygmies have no beard they wouldn't have this bone.

Also yes I just wouldn't feed him woodies right now he might love them but as he is so small, he might have trouble passing their hard chitin. Good rule of thumb to avoid impaction, is feeding him crickets that are about the same size as the space between his eyes. As someone else said before, young beardies are like teenagers. Most times its impossible to get them eating their veggies. Don't stress though he will come around to it eventually. As mentioned, their diet is almost always 80% bugs and 20% greens, this will change naturally when they get older to 80% greens 20% bugs. Just have a feel under his chin in the floppy part, you will probably feel that thin bone I was telling you about earlier.

EDIT: Sexing

You might be able to tell thought he might be too small, if he is male or female. Hold him in your hand with his bum closest to you and lift up his tail. You will see hims bum hole (vent) but just before that on his tail below that you might be able to see 2 small lumps on either side, if you can he'd be male. If you only see one larger lump in the middle he'd be female.


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## eipper (Jul 27, 2014)

That's a vitticeps as currently defined it is not a hybrid or a henrylawsoni. 

Cheers
scott


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## Bluetongue1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Thanks for the extra pics *Torti*.  They do help to confirm it is vitticeps. 



Beans said:


> ... he'd be female.


Lol. Got to love that one!

*Dragonlover*, just in case... your post was not one I was referring to in my earlier speil because it did provide a useable description of the diagnostic difference you used.

Blue


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## MrVic (Jul 27, 2014)

I too had a chuckle over the "he would be a she"


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## pinefamily (Jul 27, 2014)

Torti said:


> Hi and thx for the replies so far.
> 
> The closest spot to the heat lamp is approx 43 degrees, the basking spot on the rocks 39-40deg.
> 
> ...



Temps look ok, what is the temp at the cooler end of his tank? And yes, I would try the crickets. As Beans said above, the crickets (or woodies) need to be no bigger than the space between his eyes. One little trick to get him eating his greens is to put the crickets in the food bowl. He will get mouthfuls of vegies catching the crickets. Also try chopped banana and strawberries; they are good for getting beardies to eat salads.


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## Beans (Jul 27, 2014)

Haha I was sleepy xD And yep... go for bright colourful foods. Strawberries, butternut squash, green beans broccoli.... Just remember, he still might just not want to touch them at all. Do keep offering them though as he will try them eventually


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## Torti (Jul 29, 2014)

Thanks all, very helpful. Will get a batch of crickets and see if he eats... and never give up on those greens. Cheers! Tor


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## MrVic (Jul 30, 2014)

My little dude eats beans and chives but squash is his favourite.


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## animal805 (Jul 30, 2014)

Lol, in what universe is this a Pygmy? The patterns etc dont even closely look like Pogona henrylawsoni. This is 100% a central bearded dragon (Pogona vitticeps) 1st pic is Pygmy and 2nd is Central


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## Dan123 (Aug 5, 2014)

animal805 said:


> Lol, in what universe is this a Pygmy? The patterns etc dont even closely look like Pogona henrylawsoni. This is 100% a central bearded dragon (Pogona vitticeps) 1st pic is Pygmy and 2nd is Central




- because patterning and lack there-of is 100% sure-fire how modern day Herpatologists determine specific Classifications of reptiles?


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## Beans (Aug 6, 2014)

Dan123 said:


> - because patterning and lack there-of is 100% sure-fire how modern day Herpatologists determine specific Classifications of reptiles?



No but its a fast way to tell at first glance.


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## animal805 (Aug 6, 2014)

Dan123 said:


> - because patterning and lack there-of is 100% sure-fire how modern day Herpatologists determine specific Classifications of reptiles?



I dont see your point, clearly there is a difference and if you cant tell one from the other at a quick glance, do you even know what you have. It's a lot more than pattering but that is the most obvious apart from physical size.


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## Grogshla (Aug 6, 2014)

100% central.
bump up the temps mate. That will make him feed


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## LittleHiss (Aug 6, 2014)

animal805 said:


> Lol, in what universe is this a Pygmy? The patterns etc dont even closely look like Pogona henrylawsoni. This is 100% a central bearded dragon (Pogona vitticeps) 1st pic is Pygmy and 2nd is Central



Thankyou!!
It's a bloody central!!!!!!
Pygmies have a different head shape - they're much rounder and so are their eyes. They also don't have the same colouration that this dragon has, nor that same patterning. The scales on their backs are also much different.
To be perfectly honest, I have no idea how people get Eastern beardies, Central beardies and Pygmy beardies mixed up at any stage in the life on the animal. They are completely different and distinguishable at every single stage. The only way I could understand any confusion about the 'type' of beardie you have is if its a crossbreed, like a central cross an eastern - which is fairly common. Though I've never, ever seen a pygmy cross a central OR an eastern.
Totally different animals.

With his growth problem, try taking the legs off whatever you're feeding him, or try using gents instead, or even feed in a different place, like a plastic storage container with nothing else in it so the food is easy to corner and catch. And up the temps.

Good luck!


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 7, 2014)

The following comments are NOT directed at any one poster. Nor do the comments give recognition for the positive contributions of those posters to whom they may apply. This is a recurrent issue and I do not wish to detract from its importance by including anything additional... my apologies if anyone feels hard done by.

The response that they are "completely different" and the more frequently encountered "they don't look anything alike" does not sit well with me. simply because this is invariable untrue. The reality in this instance is that all species of Pogona look very very similar. They have a multitude of characteristics in common. This does not mean they are identical nor does it mean they cannot be readily distinguished between. To the trained eye, aware of the diagnostic differences and the variations in features, and therefore what to look for, identifying between different species may well be an easy task. To those without that background knowledge, it is anything but clearcut. A good parallel one could draw is evaluating artwork or fine wines or antiquess or any other evaluation task that require a sound knowledge of how to discriminate the nature of items based on their features.

What those in the know need to do is twofold. Firstly, stop telling those who are not knowledge about how blatantly obvious the differences are and making them feel even more stupid then may have felt when they summoned up the courage to post in the first instance. They need to be the truth - it is not obvious until you learn what to look for! Secondly, Those of us who do possess the required knowledge and skills need spell out in clear, simple, accurate and detailed terms the features that one uses to distinguish between the given species. I need to emphasise here that "the patterns are totally different", or something else along those lines, is not only useless to someone who has no idea what the patterns one should look for but it also belittling as it is interpreted as somehing basic and easy that they should already be aware of. And that is not true! Regardless of our current knowledge and understandings, we all started from a position of ignorance. What is required to address this is education and encouragement, definitely NOT put downs.

Blue


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