# kitty litter as substrate??



## whcasual79 (Aug 4, 2009)

right, im thinking of taking my 10 month old childreni out of his tub and putting him in his enclosure for good, but just wanted to know 1 thing.

im thinking of using kitty litter as the substrate, are there any specific ones that i should use and any specific ones that are not good to use?? 

cheers


----------



## webcol (Aug 4, 2009)

I use breeders choice, there is the occasional piece of plastic. but a brief inspection of the litter and any alien objects can be picked out


----------



## thebraddles (Aug 4, 2009)

yeah i use breeders choice for my tanks as well. looks like crap but easy as to clean and last ages.


----------



## Dipcdame (Aug 4, 2009)

I would imagine that as kitty litter is designed to absorb moisture, you wouldn't get much of a humidity level in your enclosure though. Newspaper, or for the look, butchers paper is far cheaper, and far better.......... LOTS easier to clean up


----------



## captive_fairy (Aug 4, 2009)

I used Kitty litter when I first got my snake, but the reptile vet i go to told me not to because it harbours bacteria.


----------



## Jungletrans (Aug 4, 2009)

l know someone who lost a snake because of kitty litter . Dried it out till it was too sick to go on , had to be put down .


----------



## byron_moses (Aug 4, 2009)

im new but i like to use aspen for my floor covering


----------



## Lewy (Aug 4, 2009)

I always use newspaper it a lot more hygienic and easy to see a wee and fast and easy to clean 

IMO you should always put the health and hygiene of the Snake first over appearance

People will disagree with me but I'm sticking to that 

Cheers Lewy


----------



## whcasual79 (Aug 4, 2009)

so kitty litter isn't the best hey??

yea i been told to use butcher's paper or aspen ... cheers for the advice ladies and fellas... 

anymore people got personal experiences or advice to share??

cheers


----------



## Timmy-Morelia (Aug 4, 2009)

I use crushed walnut shell otherwise known as lizard litter


----------



## townsvillepython (Aug 5, 2009)

im a big fan of astro turf myself reusable .......... looks better than the sunday mail IMO


----------



## Colin (Aug 5, 2009)

kitty litter and similar products like breeders choice are designed to soak up moisture like cat urine etc. they tend to suck out all the moisture in an enclosure making it extremely dry and can lead to snakes having bad sheds and problems. It also seems to contain foreign materials and I've heard of things like plastic, pieces of sharp wood, metal staples etc being mixed in with it. 

Id never use anything like that as substrate. personally I only use newspaper or butchers paper.


----------



## Sock Puppet (Aug 5, 2009)

I currently use aspen in my plastic enclosures, looks good & easy to spot clean. At $40 for a large bag, though, it's not cheap, so I'll continue to use it while my enclosures are small. When my kids are older & move into their adult enclosures, I'll probably just go to newspaper.


----------



## Lewy (Aug 5, 2009)

Colin said:


> kitty litter and similar products like breeders choice are designed to soak up moisture like cat urine etc. they tend to suck out all the moisture in an enclosure making it extremely dry and can lead to snakes having bad sheds and problems. It also seems to contain foreign materials and I've heard of things like plastic, pieces of sharp wood, metal staples etc being mixed in with it.
> 
> Id never use anything like that as substrate. personally I only use newspaper or butchers paper.


 

Couldent Agree more Colin 
For your snakes sake just use paper towel in click clacks and newspaper in enclosures


----------



## thebraddles (Aug 5, 2009)

Colin said:


> kitty litter and similar products like breeders choice are designed to soak up moisture like cat urine etc. they tend to suck out all the moisture in an enclosure making it extremely dry and can lead to snakes having bad sheds and problems. It also seems to contain foreign materials and I've heard of things like plastic, pieces of sharp wood, metal staples etc being mixed in with it.
> 
> Id never use anything like that as substrate. personally I only use newspaper or butchers paper.



well all my snakes have never had a bad shed, and they all seem to be perfectly healthy. breeders choice is just recycled paper, ive never had any foreign objects in mine either. i dont know, most of my mates use it as well with no dramas.


----------



## justbecausewhy (Aug 5, 2009)

I use breeders choice and never had any forgeign objects in it...its so easy to clean...where as with paper ..you have to change it each time ur snake goes to the toilet...where as with kitty litter you can see the mess and pick it up..how easy is that.

But im goin to switch to bark...as it looks nicer and more natural for a snake as that what they live in the wild....also does the same job as kitty litter.


----------



## snakehandler (Aug 5, 2009)

We have used breeders choice in the past, found it to dry out the enclosure too much, newspapaer for a large collection is ideal, once an animal deficates you simply take it out, put it in recycling and reline, we get ours from the local newspaper office, give it to us in large bundles.

Artificial grass was the most common thing we used, this was until the collection grew too large, the material needs to be washed thoroughly after defication, with large numbers this wastes a lot of water. We found that it kept the humidity well, kept down mite problems (unlike kitty litter) and the animals found it easier to slough. it looks great and for a small group of animals I would recommend it highly. Spott clean it and wash with F10 after deficiation, have a second piece ready to go to replace the one that is being washed.


----------



## Lewy (Aug 5, 2009)

The problem with breeders choice is that you will never get all the wee out if you just scoop the little bit that you see. I no people are going to say they do but you don't. Same with our cat when he wee's it soaks up in to a lot of the breeders choice and unless you remove it all you don't get it all 

Also for some one like my self with over 25 snakes its will just become very expensive

Also think that bark is no good and you need to fined bark that's not treated as the treated stuff stinks and is far from good for you animals


----------



## tenacres1100 (Aug 5, 2009)

I tried breeders choice with my darwin python who up until then had never had a problem shedding, the next 2 times she shed I had to help her as she left lots of old skin on, I changed back to newspaper and the last 2 times she shed she didn't have a problem again, I won't be using it again.


----------



## Rach85 (Aug 5, 2009)

I used crushed walnut shells with my stimmie til i found this forum, then after reading all the potential probs with it, and plus the fact it looked like it was staining the underside of my snake, i switched to butchers paper. its cleaner, easier and doesn't look too bad  i'll definitely be using it from now on


----------



## Gecko_ProCs (Aug 5, 2009)

Had my Mac on Breeders choice for the first year,
didn't have a problem.
Changed him on to sand when he moved into a bigger enclosure and now he's on bark and is totally fine


----------



## captive_fairy (Aug 5, 2009)

I forgot to mention that when I used it, my female had really bad sheds, I had to help her with them cause it came off in peices and she couldnt get it all off...since I switched to newspaper, no probs.


----------



## billyh (Aug 5, 2009)

i use to use cat litter but smeels really bad after a while worked fine though with my reptiles.
how about all natural soil, how would that go, fo say a coastal.


----------



## Lovemydragons (Aug 5, 2009)

I use newspaper. Easy to see when they've gone to toilet, and easy to replace and it's free!


----------



## snakehandler (Aug 5, 2009)

Using natural products looks good, however can promote other problems as the natural biota living in the soil outside dies very quickly without the right conditions, it can also be harder to see mites, can promote the breeding of mites and generally unless the enclosure is always outside, should be avoided.


----------



## daniel1234 (Aug 5, 2009)

My Bredli is on kitty litter and has not had real issues, although I cover it with paper at feed time as she lodged a peice in her mouth once and I ended up helping to remove it. I have often considered a bowl of substrate for burrowing? Have not tried it yet.


----------



## JasonL (Aug 5, 2009)

Newspaper or other sheet paper is generally the most accepted form of substrate for snakes, it's cheap, easy to replace often, snakes can hide under it, and when it's clean, it's clean, not just "looks clean" like cat litter.


----------



## whcasual79 (Aug 5, 2009)

madness so many opinions.... cheers guys ... yea been using paper towels in the plastic tub for 8 odd months now... but from what i've heard and read newspaper seem to be the way to go yea??

mite use that for now and maybe aspen down the road...

cheers fellas...


----------



## whcasual79 (Aug 5, 2009)

to those that use aspen or any other bark clippings... how often do u clean up ur enclosure?? every 3-4weeks i assume??


----------



## JAS101 (Aug 5, 2009)

untouchables said:


> I use breeders choice, there is the occasional piece of plastic. but a brief inspection of the litter and any alien objects can be picked out


what duz it look like? pic ?


----------



## MrThumper (Aug 5, 2009)

I agree with SnakeHandler....I made enclosure out of tassie oak and wanted to keep and 'outback' theme so i got 2 pieces of sand/brown astro turf from clark rubber. As soon as there is a mess, pull out the dirty one replace with clean and sanitised one...EASY AS.

Seems to help heaps with sloughing too...every slough has been in one piece.

I'll continue to use it anyways


----------



## jinjajoe (Aug 5, 2009)

I find it hard to believe that people with 100 or more snakes change the newspaper or butchers paper every day ?? labor intensive me thinks ?? & disturbing the snake in its hide every time also ?? especially nippy hatchos or gravid females ???

For me spot cleaning is essential as I would not want to disturb the animal every single time by pulling out their entire ground sheet........

when using newspaper, doesn't ink rub off onto snakes bellies (it did for me ??) & doesn't urine run off into enclosure cracks & over humidify heated plastic tubs ??

those of you with heaps let me know what you do ?? 

I have 10 snakes & a dozen lizards & I'm uncertain about all substrates & have issues with them all !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## snakehandler (Aug 6, 2009)

With a large collection such as we have, we spot clean every day, but also do a thorough clean every week, some cages get changed twice in a week but so be it. It takes us around 18 hours to clean all our snakes, plus the other animals on top of that, so it is broken down into days where we concentrate on one group to be done each day.

We have well ventilated enclosures so humidity is not a problem, our reptile room is climate controlled as well. We preferred to use the astro turf as it was quicker and easier than newspaper, however with the amount of water required to clean stopped using it.

The newspaper today uses soy based ink, a natural ink that can be injested by humans so is safe, we have never had it come off on the animals.


----------



## Lovemydragons (Aug 6, 2009)

jinjajoe said:


> I find it hard to believe that people with 100 or more snakes change the newspaper or butchers paper every day ?? labor intensive me thinks ?? & disturbing the snake in its hide every time also ?? especially nippy hatchos or gravid females ???
> 
> For me spot cleaning is essential as I would not want to disturb the animal every single time by pulling out their entire ground sheet........
> 
> ...


 

I don't know about others but my snakes don't crap every day. So maybe 1-2 times a week max I change the newspaper, most times only required once. 

I've always had my two on newspaper (at least 8 months for one) and she has no ink rubbing off. But being a bredli she spends a lot more time in her branches and only sits on the floor to warm up from the heat cord when she feeds. My girl never sits in her crap either, she hides in the branches if she's made a mess and waits for me to clean it before venturing down on the floor again. 

Depending on the size of you snake you just make the newspaper layer thicker to absorb more. But overall I think newspaper is great.


----------



## Sock Puppet (Aug 6, 2009)

whcasual79 said:


> to those that use aspen or any other bark clippings... how often do u clean up ur enclosure?? every 3-4weeks i assume??


 
I spot clean as required, & thoroughly clean every 1-2 weeks (depends on if they've dropped a nugget down the side of the enclosure or not.). Mind you I'm only using a plastic enclosure, so it's easy to clean more often (2 enclosures, using aspen)


----------



## Sock Puppet (Aug 6, 2009)

MrThumper said:


> I made enclosure out of tassie oak and wanted to keep and 'outback' theme so i got 2 pieces of sand/brown astro turf from clark rubber. As soon as there is a mess, pull out the dirty one replace with clean and sanitised one...EASY AS.
> 
> Seems to help heaps with sloughing too...every slough has been in one piece.


 
I might change to this after my bag of aspen has run out ($40 a bag!!). 
What about something like offcuts of marine carpet? It's also synthetic like astro turf.


----------



## MrThumper (Aug 6, 2009)

I think marine carpet and AstroTurf are much the same. One can get either of these in such a variety of colours and patterns now, I think there is one for every theme


----------



## Slytherin (Aug 6, 2009)

I use 'Back to Nature' which is recycled paper pellets. I find it great for odour control and I scoop out any soiled stuff and have a full clean-out occasionally. To prepare it for use, I sieve it and 'toss' it a little to remove excess paper dust and inspect it for the occasional small plastic object. I have no troubles with humidity (My MD doesn't need high humidity). Snakey also likes to push the stuff around and dig in it. :lol:

I have heard that astroturf or marine carpet can harbour bacteria if not washed/sanitized and rinsed well, but like all things, if you clean well there should be no problems.


----------



## jinjajoe (Aug 7, 2009)

thanks all....... interesting stuff to a herp geek like me !!! gonna give butchers paper a fair try......


----------



## whcasual79 (Aug 7, 2009)

when i first started this thread didn't fink there was gona be so much info,input and experience advice from everyone... legends... now i got a few options than just kitty litter...

cheers


----------



## yommy (Aug 8, 2009)

Here is some info from a doc i had save from some years ago. I think i says it all:

8 Reasons Not To Use Breeder's Choice 

1. It causes problems when sloughing due to the extreme high absorbency of the pellets (sucks all of the moisture out of the air).

2. Respiratory problems due to excessive dust, particularly common with snakes/lizards that dig underneath it.

3. Possibility of pieces getting stuck in the snakes mouth, or consumed then causing impaction.
Again it high absorption properties can cause havoc internally.

4. It encourages people to 'spot clean' instead of disinfecting the cage thoroughly. Often urine will soak through to the floor and will be absorbed by pellets which are then left behind when cleaning. Also most people won't bother to disinfect the floor; they just scoop and replace leaving all the bacteria behind. This is a very poor hygiene practice.

5. It is often hard to notice when your snake has relieved itself, especially if it has only urinated and even more so if the cage has a lot of decorations (eg. fake plants). You should see what the result is if these urine soaked pellets are left in a cage for several weeks/months!

6. Although not usually as serious as the above mentioned, another problem I have came across is if animals through the course of digging/burrowing in it, accidentally fill the water bowl up with pellets, they quickly suck up all of the water, leaving you with some thirsty animals!

7. I have also heard stories of people finding staples and other such things in their pellets which obviously can't be good.

8. Mites love it which equals sick animals as a result.

I hope this is enough to steer you guys clear of this product. Really when you weigh up all the risks it just isn't worth it, especially when you have newspaper, which does the job perfectly, so freely available. With its dual uses, as good read and then herp substrate, you can’t beat it.

As with everything in this hobby, it’s all personal choice, but be informed and know all the pro’s and con’s of some of the husbandry things involved. At the end of the day it’s about the welfare of the animals entrusted into our care.


----------



## Colin (Aug 8, 2009)

excellent post yommy


----------



## Slytherin (Aug 8, 2009)

These are good points put forward. Here are my answers from my experiences relating to 'Back to Nature' which is a recycled paper pellet substrait made by a different company. I use to use newspaper but found that I hated the ink smell and didn't like the look of it. 

(This post is not criticizing Yommy's post at all, just offering a different perspective for a different product.)  


8 Reasons Not To Use Breeder's Choice 

1. It causes problems when sloughing due to the extreme high absorbency of the pellets (sucks all of the moisture out of the air). *Not a problem with my MD. He has great sheds and doesn't need supplimentary humidity, but I dont know about humidity requirements of the northern 'tropical' pythons. *

2. Respiratory problems due to excessive dust, particularly common with snakes/lizards that dig underneath it. *I haven't noticed any problems here. **As an added precaution, I like to sieve and toss it to remove any excess dust. Slight dust causes me to sneeze too.*

3. Possibility of pieces getting stuck in the snakes mouth, or consumed then causing impaction. *Fortunately Snakey only feeds while suspended from a branch (He prefers to hunt, catch and eat this way)*
Again it high absorption properties can cause havoc internally.

4. It encourages people to 'spot clean' instead of disinfecting the cage thoroughly. Often urine will soak through to the floor and will be absorbed by pellets which are then left behind when cleaning. Also most people won't bother to disinfect the floor; they just scoop and replace leaving all the bacteria behind. This is a very poor hygiene practice. *When cleaning the soiled area, I always take out the substrait to the floor and all around it (my floor is resin coated to stop liquids soaking in.) I then use a reptile friendly disinfectant and sanitize the area and dry before replacing with fresh pellets. The pellets that have soaked up any moisture are darker even when dry. I always make sure to do a full removal of the substrait and sanitizing periodically, including the branches and cage decor. To me this should always be part of a herp keepers good hygene routine.
* 
5. It is often hard to notice when your snake has relieved itself, especially if it has only urinated and even more so if the cage has a lot of decorations (eg. fake plants). You should see what the result is if these urine soaked pellets are left in a cage for several weeks/months! *My enclosure has lots of decorations and it is obvious either by smell or by discolouration. I find that the 'Back to Nature' pellets always discolour immediately when they come into contact with any liquid and stay that way.* *I always make sure to do a full removal of the substrait and sanitizing periodically, including the branches and cage decor. Again, this should always be part of a herp keepers good hygene routine.*

6. Although not usually as serious as the above mentioned, another problem I have came across is if animals through the course of digging/burrowing in it, accidentally fill the water bowl up with pellets, they quickly suck up all of the water, leaving you with some thirsty animals! *A person should always be checking the water daily or more in summer*

7. I have also heard stories of people finding staples and other such things in their pellets which obviously can't be good. *The occasional piece of plastic is found in 'Back to Nature' but I haven't seen a staple luckily.*

8. Mites love it which equals sick animals as a result. *Mites would live in anything if they are already present


*Again, this post is not meant to criticize but offer my view on the product I use.


----------

