# My jag python is a darwin or a jungle? or coastal?



## JIAAO (Jan 3, 2015)

I bought my female python months ago, and been told she is a jag. but the breeder didn't tell me the details.  so anybody knows she is a darwin, jungle or belong to others? thx a lot.


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## arevenant (Jan 3, 2015)

Most likely a Jungle based jag, but the simple fact is jags have been bred across so many sub species over the years that unless lineage is guaranteed and established at purchase, you'll never know.
Most have 2-3 sub species genetics in them these days at least...


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## GBWhite (Jan 3, 2015)

Mate I wouldn't worry too much about what it is or where it came from and can tell you that you'll get "it looks like this or that", " it's a possible cross between x and y" and you might even get told that it's an "intergrade" (no such thing in my book). You won't get a concise answer here because a lot of the members wouldn't have a real clue what it is.

I've got spilota that are identical to this critter and their ancestors are originally from the mid north coast of NSW. In fact over the years, just to prove a point to friends I have bred "carpets" from selected mid north coast lineage and produced snakes that people have told me are Jungles, Proserpines, Darwins, Carpet/Diamond intergrades, Murray Darlings, Northern Diamonds (whatever they are) and even WA carpets.

The taxonomy used to describe some of the group as sub-species and elevate others to species level is very, very questionable. Other names (ie; Jags, Zebras, Northern Diamonds etc are just commercial names used for marketing). From the evidence that is available at the moment it appears that all the Morelia spilota group are in fact the same snake whether they come from Eden on the south coast of NSW, Coffs Harbour, Lightning Ridge, Brisbane, Cairns, Darwin or Uppercumbuccer West.

Be content in that what you do have is a rather nice looking snake of the Morelia spilota group.

Cheers,

George.


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## Wally (Jan 3, 2015)

Morelia of undetermined origin.

AKA pet snake.


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## sevrum (Jan 3, 2015)

aka pet snake with spinning qualities......(hope the breeder explained these qualities)


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## Newhere (Jan 3, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Mate I wouldn't worry too much about what it is or where it came from and can tell you that you'll get "it looks like this or that", " it's a possible cross between x and y" and you might even get told that it's an "intergrade" (no such thing in my book). You won't get a concise answer here because a lot of the members wouldn't have a real clue what it is.
> 
> I've got spilota that are identical to this critter and their ancestors are originally from the mid north coast of NSW. In fact over the years, just to prove a point to friends I have bred "carpets" from selected mid north coast lineage and produced snakes that people have told me are Jungles, Proserpines, Darwins, Carpet/Diamond intergrades, Murray Darlings, Northern Diamonds (whatever they are) and even WA carpets.
> 
> ...


Would you keep a diamond at the same temps you would keep a Darwin George?


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## arevenant (Jan 3, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Mate I wouldn't worry too much about what it is or where it came from and can tell you that you'll get "it looks like this or that", " it's a possible cross between x and y" and you might even get told that it's an "intergrade" (no such thing in my book). You won't get a concise answer here because a lot of the members wouldn't have a real clue what it is.
> 
> I've got spilota that are identical to this critter and their ancestors are originally from the mid north coast of NSW. In fact over the years, just to prove a point to friends I have bred "carpets" from selected mid north coast lineage and produced snakes that people have told me are Jungles, Proserpines, Darwins, Carpet/Diamond intergrades, Murray Darlings, Northern Diamonds (whatever they are) and even WA carpets.
> 
> ...



this is the kind of 'helpful' advice on here you'd do well to ignore....


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## GBWhite (Jan 4, 2015)

arevenant said:


> this is the kind of 'helpful' advice on here you'd do well to ignore....



Why, they asked what they had and I did nothing more than tell them the truth. I reckon it's the best advice they can get. They are not asking how to look after it, they are asking what it is.

Your suggestion that it might be a "Jungle based Jag" is the advice that they should ignore. No one can tell what it is or where it came from unless they know the background of its parents. If anything it's just a guess. Jags are a manufactured product designed for the pet trade and by no means are recognised as subspecies as suggested. Must have hit a nerve or something.

I think that taxonomists are so obsessed with describing a new subspecies and/or elevating others to species level they forget to look outside the box and can't see the bleeding obvious.

The extensive variations of colours and patterns present throughout the group is all to do with survival and thermoregulation within particular habitats they occupy individually and have no bearing on the taxonomy of the group what so ever. The taxonomy used to describe the sub-species and elevate others to species level is questionable because it is based on the number of mid body scales, supralabials, infralabials and labial pits which if one cares to have a look are so variable within the group itself, is insufficient to confirm each taxon. Glen Shea currently has a student who has been looking at this for about 12 or so months and the data obtained to date appear to confirm this. It is also my understanding that even recent DNA analysis has shown that there is not enough evidence to confirm the alleged sub-species and that the slight difference that has been identified to elevate others to species level may not actually be enough to do so.

George.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 4, 2015)

I think I have to agree with George here. Taxonomists seem to have become obsessive "splitters" in the past 20+ years, with the advent of DNA research potential. Very little of what they do (except with very obvious cases, such as the new Taipan) makes a jot of difference to anything at all. It's become a self-sustaining industry in its own right - they do it just because they can.

I totally agree with George's comments about Morelia sp, except I would say that M.s. imbricata is a fairly obvious variation to the "east coast norm." The continuum of Carpets, from northern Victoria (Diamonds), right up the east coast and across the top into the Kimberley MUST be closely related, if not genetically identical. Really, the only reason I firmly differentiate between Diamonds, Intergrades and Coastals is purely on pattern, which will give you a rough idea or their geographic origin, and these patterns have probably developed over eons to suit particular environmental niches, just as the southern snakes (Diamonds, SW Carpets) have developed to cope with relatively cool environments, and the Intergrades, Jungles, "Darwins" etc have evolved to require warmer climes.

Jamie


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## wokka (Jan 4, 2015)

If you cross a Darwin with a Diamond what temperature should the resultant progeny be kept at? Will the appearance of the progeny indicate the preferred temperature range?


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## arevenant (Jan 4, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Why, they asked what they had and I did nothing more than tell them the truth. I reckon it's the best advice they can get. They are not asking how to look after it, they are asking what it is.
> 
> Your suggestion that it might be a "Jungle based Jag" is the advice that they should ignore.* No one can tell what it is or where it came from unless they know the background of its parents*. If anything it's just a guess. Jags are a manufactured product designed for the pet trade and by no means are recognised as subspecies as suggested. Must have hit a nerve or something.
> 
> ...



Exactly what I said in my post if you bothered to read it properly.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 4, 2015)

wokka said:


> If you cross a Darwin with a Diamond what temperature should the resultant progeny be kept at? Will the appearance of the progeny indicate the preferred temperature range?



Not sure what this question means Warwick. My guess is that you keep them at whatever temps you like, and see if they thrive over a decade. There truly isn't much difference between the needs of Diamonds or Darwins (or any other pythons for that matter), but some have niche requirements, such as extra cooling over winter for the more southern ones. My point was that colour and patterns evolve over many generations. If humans interfere with clades that would otherwise never come into contact with each other, I don't think the resulting colours & patterns can give you any definitive info on their management.

Jamie


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## wokka (Jan 5, 2015)

Jamie, It is generally accepted that Diamonds prefer a lower temperature regime ( say25=28c). than Darwins (say28-35c) and that Diamonds kept at high temperatures may "burn out". I doubt that the colour of a snake indicates which parent it has thrown to, in terms of temperature requirements, and so there there may be a quandry as to the desirable temperture ranges required by crossbreds.. This is not an arguement, just a comment!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 5, 2015)

I would never argue with you Warwick! What I was suggesting was that through the warmer months, Diamonds may, in fact, encounter far higher temps (into the 40s) in their southern localities, than, say, "Darwins" ever do (across the top, coastally, temps rarely go above 35, and are usually in the low thirties), but it's the nights and the winters that truly vary in those localities. If I was into crossbreeds and had a Darwin/Diamond cross (yechhh) I would initially keep them as an "average" python, and see how it progressed - but as we know, Diamonds kept at higher ("average" python) temps may take a number of years to show signs of burn-out. I totally agree that colour/pattern of such an unnatural cross would give no indication of long-term husbandry requirements. But I still believe that the geographic variation demonstrated by the east coast spread of Morelia sp. is evolutionary, and generally reflects the particular niches in which these animals live, otherwise why wouldn't they all be the same?

Jamie


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## arevenant (Jan 5, 2015)

I think the point was to argue that there are no subspecies is wrong, as they have sufficiently different living requirements to indicate they are genetically removed enough to be subspecies rather than just differently patterned.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 5, 2015)

arevenant said:


> I think the point was to argue that there are no subspecies is wrong, as they have sufficiently different living requirements to indicate they are genetically removed enough to be subspecies rather than just differently patterned.



I have to disagree with your hypothesis that, in captivity, they have different living requirements. With the exception of Diamonds, I have kept all "subspecies" and bredli in exactly the same conditions, very successfully, for years. Day time hot spot of 33-34, ambient night time lows (year-round is OK, but you can have night heat if you want) and ambient humidity - I have never actively monitored or managed humidity. They all live, feed & breed very routinely under those conditions. Your suggestion that living requirements may be indicators of genetic variation needs explanation. Surely DNA analysis is the sole determinant of genetic variability.

Jamie


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## GBWhite (Jan 5, 2015)

arevenant said:


> as they have sufficiently different living requirements to indicate they are genetically removed enough to be subspecies rather than just differently patterned.



WHAT? I don't think so. As Jamie indicates with the possible exception of M sp sp. they can all survive quite well under the same captive conditions as outlined. Even in the wild their living requirements, as you put it, are exactly the same.

Ever consider that the reason they are the most successful Python on the Australian Continent might have something to do with their genetic ability to produce colours and patterns to suit the multitude of habitats and environments they occupy.

The method used and accepted to describe subspecies of Ozzie herps is extremely poor and open to abuse by taxonomists. They also forget that there are many other factors to consider (such as unassailable geographic barriers and isolation) when it comes to species level.

FYI I know the authors of the 1980's Synopsis that first described the Morelia subspecies and elevated others to species level and know for a fact that it wasn't actually done to just reclassify the Australian herpetofauna. It was undertaken to prove a point. The point being that the reclassification of Australian Herps needed to be done and could be undertaken by a non-academic using the very minimal accepted methods. It was submitted and accepted and as a result there was a massive outcry from the academics of the time who, in turn, unsuccessfully attempted to have it suppressed. That is why we currently have the dilemma with the Morelia sp group today. 

If anyone can put up a good, intelligent argument why the subspecies and species should stand then I'm open to changing my mind.

Have a good one,

George.


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## arevenant (Jan 5, 2015)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I have to disagree with your hypothesis that, in captivity, they have different living requirements. With the exception of Diamonds, I have kept all "subspecies" and bredli in exactly the same conditions, very successfully, for years. Day time hot spot of 33-34, ambient night time lows (year-round is OK, but you can have night heat if you want) and ambient humidity - I have never actively monitored or managed humidity. They all live, feed & breed very routinely under those conditions. Your suggestion that living requirements may be indicators of genetic variation needs explanation. Surely DNA analysis is the sole determinant of genetic variability.
> 
> Jamie





GBWhite said:


> WHAT? I don't think so. As Jamie indicates with the possible exception of M sp sp. they can all survive quite well under the same captive conditions as outlined. Even in the wild their living requirements, as you put it, are exactly the same.
> 
> Ever consider that the reason they are the most successful Python on the Australian Continent might have something to do with their genetic ability to produce colours and patterns to suit the multitude of habitats and environments they occupy.
> 
> ...




To the both of you;
It was not MY argument - it was me clarifying wokka's statement. I never said it - or agreed with, merely explained it.

Again; can you please thoroughly read what people have written before replying an a jerkish fashion.


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## GBWhite (Jan 5, 2015)

arevenant said:


> To the both of you;
> It was not MY argument - it was me clarifying wokka's statement. I never said it - or agreed with, merely explained it.
> 
> Again; can you please thoroughly read what people have written before replying an a jerkish fashion.



Good handball.

Well maybe you should have just butted out and let Jamie and Wokka sort it out? I'm sure Wokka's big enough to speak for himself, I know Jamie is. Harden up Sunshine. If you can't stand the fire then you'd better get out of the kitchen. I might add that don't take too kindly being referred to as a jerk by some clown that hides behind his computer.


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## Newhere (Jan 5, 2015)

So what you guys are saying is that a jungle python
python will grow to the same size as a coastal in captivity? Because they are essentially the same snake and removed from environmental conditions such as availability of food there will be no difference in size of any of the group?


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## cement (Jan 5, 2015)

No, what they are saying is that environmental pressures over millenia can force changes in a species , so that though the same species, they suit that particular area and environment better....... 
Jungle pythons are adapted to a very small and specific region.

Jags don't fit into this, without human intervention...... there would never be a jag.


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## arevenant (Jan 5, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Good handball.
> 
> Well maybe you should have just butted out and let Jamie and Wokka sort it out? I'm sure Wokka's big enough to speak for himself, I know Jamie is. Harden up Sunshine. If you can't stand the fire then you'd better get out of the kitchen. I might add that don't take too kindly being referred to as a jerk by some clown that hides behind his computer.



This right here my friends is everything wrong with this site.
I'm done, have your keyboard victory.


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## Newhere (Jan 5, 2015)

I didn't comment on jags for that reason, what I'm trying to say is although they might not be genetically different enough to warrant classification as different subspecies they still must be slightly different genetically. I think we as humans do just nit pick and try divide nature and try and fit everything into its own little box but we should still try and keep these animals that come from different areas/ niches and their genes undiluted and kept as pure as we can.

I don't like to see blanket statements like they are all the same animal from well respected members of this site and reptile community because it just encourages the dilution.


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## BigWillieStyles (Jan 5, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> WHAT? I don't think so. As Jamie indicates with the possible exception of M sp sp. they can all survive quite well under the same captive conditions as outlined. Even in the wild their living requirements, as you put it, are exactly the same.
> 
> Ever consider that the reason they are the most successful Python on the Australian Continent might have something to do with their genetic ability to produce colours and patterns to suit the multitude of habitats and environments they occupy.
> 
> ...



Well put! I undertook research on lizards a few years ago, and this topic was hotly discussed among academics during my studies. There is genuine reasons why the taxonomic world takes time to classify species. Scientific institutions just ignore the introduced changes by these amateurs, while herpculturalists have adopted them which adds to new levels of confusion. As a rule of thumb, I usually just use Cogger for clear classifications. Wilson and Swan - A complete guide to Reptiles of Australia actually suggests that the Morelia subspecies are yet to be properly determined and they may well just be colour variations of the same species.


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## africancichlidau (Jan 5, 2015)

GBWhite, I'm with you buddy! Any cross is a cross and a cross with a cross is a double mongrel


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 6, 2015)

Hmmm... I don't think it's worth getting any knotted knickers over this ! Pretty much it's all based on opinion, but some opinions carry more weight because some of the "opinionated" may have decades more experience than others. I certainly wasn't having any kind of biffo with Warwick, I just didn't really understand what he was trying to say (and anyway he's a lot bigger than me... !

I have based much of my opinion of the work of taxonomists on my time at the WA Museum, starting with Glenn Storr and Laurie Smith in the Herp Dep, and their work on reptiles, which in the 60s & 70s was based only on physical characteristics, scalation in particular. Glenn's demise occurred at about the same time as work on DNA and genetics was rising in importance (and popularity...), so I've seen the change from the Storr "old school" taxonomy to the slick, new DNA whizzkids style of work, and I have to say that I do get a bit cynical about what it all means to herpetology these days. Probably not much in the long-term, especially for the species concerned. I think it can be interesting, but much of it is being done just because it can be done, and serves not much purpose more than keeping people in work. Who really cares if a subspecies is visually indistinguishable from another, but DNA tells another story?

Don't get me wrong here - I'm very much pro-science in all respects, but I see a lot of ego involved in this stuff, and that may be what it's about for some practitioners. JMO.

Jamie


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## Norm (Jan 6, 2015)

Boy I've missed APS!!


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## TrueBlue (Jan 7, 2015)

hahahaha, can only happen here.
Its a jag, its a mongrel that's all you really need to know. There are NO pure coastal jags or any other pure form of jag in OZ. They are all mongrel rubbish.


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## Newhere (Jan 7, 2015)

Yeah everyone agrees it's a mongrel, then the conversation moved to the validity of some of the subspecies.


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## Norm (Jan 7, 2015)

TrueBlue said:


> hahahaha, can only happen here.




No, I've been spending a bit of time on the dark side ( Facebook ) and it happens there too!


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## TrueBlue (Jan 9, 2015)

Yeah Norm, its every where, just cant escape it.


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## longqi (Jan 10, 2015)

TrueBlue said:


> Yeah Norm, its every where, just cant escape it.



Here is an old quote
"Give me three sentences written by the innocent man and I will find a reason to execute him" 
Possible Cardinal Richeleau

No matter how you write or what you write now, everything is open to individual interpretation to twist it into what they want to read, rather than what was actually written
So I dont bother writing much any more


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## shaunyboy (Jan 12, 2015)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Not sure what this question means Warwick. My guess is that you keep them at whatever temps you like, and see if they thrive over a decade. There truly isn't much difference between the needs of Diamonds or Darwins (or any other pythons for that matter), but some have niche requirements, such as extra cooling over winter for the more southern ones. My point was that colour and patterns evolve over many generations. If humans interfere with clades that would otherwise never come into contact with each other, I don't think the resulting colours & patterns can give you any definitive info on their management.
> 
> Jamie



anything that's a Diamond cross can be kept like the other Carpets,imo Pure Diamonds need completely different husbandry mate

also i would not go with the above quote of " keep them what ever temps you like,and see if they thrive over the next decade ",imo it's not very scientific or great husbandry advice

pure Diamonds need kept different to all the other Carpets mate

over here in the UK 10 or 15 years ago,people who kept Pure Diamonds the same way as other Carpets,had their Diamonds dropping dead on them at an age of 3 to 6 years,it is thought in general folk were keeping them too hot,and not giving them yearly cooling cycles,that contributed to the sudden deaths

we found giving them basking light times reflecting the season,also a correct cooling cycle from their 2nd year on,cured the sudden death of them,and i know of no cases of Diamond Python Syndrome,since the husbandry was improved

we also only feed our Diamonds 6 month of the year,as we found a fat Diamond usually led to a dead Diamond

re cooling cycle
1st of September last feed,give them 4 weeks to clear the gut

1st October drop the basking and UVB times down to 2 to 3 hours per 24 hours,no heat at night,but i like to set a small heat mat on a stat set at 50F,to give them something to curl up on should the night time temps drop too far,imo 50F upwards at night is no problem and can help with fertility

start to heat them back up end of January,offer prey February

introduce males to females for breeding mid January onwards

regards the months,please remember i'm on the opposite side of the planet,so our winter is your summer


cheers shaun


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 12, 2015)

With all due respect Shaun, I never suggested that Diamonds be kept as we keep the other Carpets. It is generally acknowledged that Diamonds need cooler mean temps, and I think I made this fairly clear - but through high summer here, they encounter temperatures which are very often MUCH higher than the more northern Carpets. That doesn't mean that they exploit these higher temps, in fact they behave as the other Carpet varieties do in hot weather - they bask early in the morning and retreat from the heat of the day, to emerge later or at night.

As far as "scientific" goes, your own very prescriptive management of your snakes isn't based on "science," it's based on what you THINK will be best for your animals, and this is loosely what other Diamond keepers believe mirrors their home environment, but whatever you do with your caged animals can only be an extremely rough imitation of what they experience in the wild.

I don't keep Diamonds at the moment, but if I did get back to them, I would probably follow much the same sort of management practices, but I would be a lot more relaxed than you about the timing of the seasonal events. I am far more likely these days to keep them outside, which allows them to make choices of their own. I'm getting very tired of keeping reptiles in boxes...

Jamie


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## TrueBlue (Jan 13, 2015)

longqi, and you point of that post is................. Come on don't be shy out with it.


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