# My old man Found clutch of eggs hatching



## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

I asked him if he damaged them. He said that was the only one they accidentally split and they all came out and starting jumping around everywhere haha


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 13, 2013)

Legless lizards...

Jamie


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

Dugites?


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 13, 2013)

No, legless lizards... probably Delma fraseri from down your way.

Jamie


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

Righto cheers


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

Should they have forked tongues?


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## Radar (Feb 13, 2013)

If they're snakes.


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

My dad reckons they do and they are flicking them flat out lol he's not a real snake person n he was ****ting himself lol


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

There was heaps of eggs there.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 13, 2013)

Jonesy1990 said:


> There was heaps of eggs there.


so he cut them all open?


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

Nah they have been popping out all day


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 13, 2013)

Jonesy1990 said:


> Nah they have been popping out all day



How many, can you show pics of them all together?


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

Ill try and get him to send me a pic


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 13, 2013)

Something does not add up, legless lizards only lay1-2 eggs at a time, more than 2 indicates a communal lay site, if however it was a communal lay site the odds of them all being due to hatch on the same day are pretty slim.


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

He isn't in the area anymore but if he goes back hopefully there is still some there


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 13, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Legless lizards...
> 
> Jamie



I am curious, what features are you using to come to this conclusion?


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## Bushman (Feb 13, 2013)

I reckon that they may be Pseudonaja sp., so be very careful about handling them.
Whilst I have a great deal of respect for Jamie, I'm going to urge caution here.


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## Bushman (Feb 13, 2013)




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## Wild56 (Feb 13, 2013)

There brown snakes mate lol


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

Thanks guys


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## JrFear (Feb 13, 2013)

I was also leaning toward Juvie browns because on the head marking!


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## -Peter (Feb 13, 2013)

Where is your dad and how big are the eggs? I reckon Pseudonaja sp.


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 13, 2013)

We are in esperance southern wa. Not sure how big cos he just took a few photos and has now left the area ill ask him when I see him next 

This is where they all were but are gone now. It's an ant nest! Is that weird? I would have thought they would damage the eggs.


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## Dendrobates (Feb 13, 2013)

These are definitely hatchling Dugites.


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## mrkos (Feb 13, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Legless lizards...
> 
> Jamie


Surely you must admit you are wrong even with your knowledge and experience with reptiles you can see in that second pic it is definetely no Delma.


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## Shotta (Feb 14, 2013)

eastern browns?


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## OzGecko (Feb 14, 2013)

To me they look like a brown species. Legles lizards only have clutches of 2 eggs, sure it could be a communal nest site, but I doubt it. In the second pic the eye size looks larger than I'd expect for a delma species. Yes legless lizards do have forked tongues, but its a large flat fleshy tongue as opposed to a thin tongue. So I'd say Pseudonaja.


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## Bushman (Feb 14, 2013)

This humble pie tastes good.


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 14, 2013)

Sorry guys, no way is that a Brown Snake of any species, and definitely not a Dugite - hatchy Dugites may have a band on the neck, but they have a dark or black head. This is a Delma, probably fraseri, which is common in the Esperence/south coast of WA. As far as identifying it as a legless lizard, the vent is about where the top of the key is, and the tail is several times longer than the s/v length, a characteristic of this genus - and most legless lizards actually.. If you Google Delma fraseri, you'll find picks of animals almost identical to this, although it is a variable species, and adults may differ in appearance considerably from hatchies/juvies like this.. The species also has a slightly bifurcated tongue, which can make them look a bit snake-like to the unititiated.

I draw on 55 years of life in WA, probably several hundred observations of baby Dugites and Western Browns (Gwardars) in that time, in making that observation. 

Having said that, I do urge caution when dealing with ANY unidentified species of snake-like creature.

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 14, 2013)

Here's a photo from Brian Bush, of animals from Lort River on the south coast. Brian used to work in this region before moving to Perth many years ago, but he's probably one of WA's most experienced herpetologists...

Thanks Brian, Jamie


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## saratoga (Feb 14, 2013)

Consistent taper from head to tail tip, and the very slender nature of the animal in the first pick to me says it is a legless lizard, a Delma.


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 14, 2013)

You guys born & raised on the east coast need to brush up on your Brown Snakes... 

Jamie


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## ArcticMonkey (Feb 14, 2013)

Is it possible the Delma's have evolved to look like juveniles of venomous species to deter predators?


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 14, 2013)

mrkos said:


> Surely you must admit you are wrong even with your knowledge and experience with reptiles you can see in that second pic it is definetely no Delma.



I've ALWAYS been VERY happy to admit the fact that I'm in error when I am wrong, but in this case I'm not wrong, and I'd bet not only my leftie, but both nuts on it! Care to look at the Brian Bush photo of two Delma fraseri from the Esperance (Lort River) region I uploaded? I admit the head shot does look very Brown Snake in form, but the whole body photo can't be anything but a Delma... They are NOT hatchling Dugites, despite the insistence of some members here...

As far as a mass hatching event is concerned, lizard eggs have a far more variable development time than snakes (which can often be timed to the day), lizards such as monitors can vary by months for the same species. It just may be that they reach a stage of development and remain ready to hatch until the conditions are suitable - if anyone here knows otherwise, let me know. Also, bown snakes prefer to lay eggs in heaps of rotted vegetable matter or similar humid environments - in my experience they don't lay eggs in ants nests.

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 14, 2013)

ArcticMonkey said:


> Is it possible the Delma's have evolved to look like juveniles of venomous species to deter predators?



That is absolutely correct!!!

J


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 14, 2013)

They certainly do a good job! There's several Delma Sp. around OZ that mimic Pseudonaja to one degree or another. D. tincta does a resonable job also. Nice find!


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## Bushman (Feb 14, 2013)

Well I'll be blowed! That's convincing evidence for _Delma fraseri_. 
I'm sorry I doubted you Jamie. 
Does anyone else want to share this delicious but tart humble pie with me. There's plenty that needs to be eaten.


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## ArcticMonkey (Feb 14, 2013)

Haha, we'll they seem to have fooled most people too.




Pythoninfinite said:


> That is absolutely correct!!!
> 
> J


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## Nephrurus (Feb 14, 2013)

ZING! I admit, the second photo was a bit confusing. But the length is EXTREME and very Delma. Admittedly I've only seen one baby dugite, but they're a baby brown. They aren't that long and skinny. 

I think what we're missing here is that the record of the communal breeding is really cool- probably the first time it's been seen. A really cool record (if it's recorded- maybe send an email to the herp people at the museum?). 

-H


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## mrkos (Feb 14, 2013)

Bushman said:


> Well I'll be blowed! That's convincing evidence for _Delma fraseri_.
> I'm sorry I doubted you Jamie.
> Does anyone else want to share this delicious but tart humble pie with me. There's plenty that needs to be eaten.


+1


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## Bushman (Feb 14, 2013)

Nephrurus said:


> ...I think what we're missing here is that the record of the communal breeding is really cool- probably the first time it's been seen. A really cool record (if it's recorded- maybe send an email to the herp people at the museum?).
> 
> -H


Well said H! We've almost completely overlooked this very interesting record of communal nesting in _Delma fraseri_. 
Come to think of it, I can't recall any other documented cases of communal egg-laying in Pygopods at all.

Jonesy, do you or your dad happen to know what sort of ant nest it was? Do you have any more pics?


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 14, 2013)

"Pygopods lay two eggs in each clutch[SUP][1][/SUP] and nest communally. Some nests have been found to have as many as 30 eggs."

Pygopodidae in Encyclopedia


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## Jonesy1990 (Feb 14, 2013)

Nah sorry not sure what kind of ants they were and I havnt actually seen the site at all. I think I might have to go for a drive this weekend and have a look around and try and get some more details  HERP TRIP!!! HahA


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## Asharee133 (Feb 14, 2013)

Check for ear holes.


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## OzGecko (Feb 14, 2013)

Actually it's quite funny, just last weekend I was out with my father and found a Delma petersoni. I had to try to convince him I knew what it was. In the end I picked it up and showed him it's ears. I must admit, the thought did cross my mind to do the whole "wait a minute, where's it's ears".
But back on this find, I agree, the communal nesting is very interesting and what threw me. Good find.

Whoops sorry, just saw GeckoJosh's post. Didnt know that.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 15, 2013)

As was mentioned, the tails in pygopods are longer than the SVL (snout-vent length) of the animals, while those in elapids are shorter. In Delma species, which have particularly long tails, the tail is 3 to 4 times the body length (SVL). In dugites the tail length is around 15% of the SVL. 

Thought I would Google up some images to further illustrate this. I have to say though, that it does not help when provided with the first of the following images labelled as an example of a “hatchling dugite”. It is, of course, an image of _Delma fraseri_. The second image is the genuine article from Brian Bush. It clearly shows the short tail of elapids in comparison to pygopods.




If you examine the image of the _D.fraseri_, as it begins to bend towards the left, there is slight but definite reduction in diameter of the animal. This is where the body ends and the tail begins. If you apply the same procedure to the original photo, the body ends about level with the top of the key and the rest is tail.

It is also worth knowing that pygopods have divided ventrals in contrast to the single belly scales of elapids.

Blue


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## Nephrurus (Feb 15, 2013)

I asked a friend of mine who has herped SW WA his whole life: he reckons he's seen communal nesting in fraseri a few times. He suggests that it's probably a result of limited locations to lay rather than actively seeking to lay in the same place. 

A really cool sighting, none the less. I'd never heard of communal nesting in Delmas so I certainly learnt something.


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## Elapidae1 (Feb 17, 2013)

As a note if they were Dugites they have the potential to inflict a deadly bite straight from the egg.

Here is a couple of pics of hatchling Dugites to demonstrate the similarities


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 18, 2013)

Just as a further note, I recall that a bloke died in WA a year or two ago from being bitten (between the toes?) by a hatchling dugite - and I believe he was sitting at his computer at the time... Can anyone from the west verify this? Bloody Brown Snakes of all species... so common and sooo dangerous, at any size. And when I think of how casual I was with them as a kid living in Perth...

I don't expect anyone to eat humble pie when I'm being a smartypants Patrick lol!

Jamie


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## Wing_Nut (Feb 18, 2013)

The incident you refer to Jamie happened 26th November 2010 in GinGin where it was reported a dugite under 42cm bit a man on the toe (unconfirmed if it was between them) and he later died. 

I remember seeing you chase a particularly aggressive dugite around 5ft long across a certain bird shop carpark! I was surprised to see how fast that snake could actually move. 

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## Echiopsis (Feb 18, 2013)

mrkos said:


> Surely you must admit you are wrong even with your knowledge and experience with reptiles you can see in that second pic it is definetely no Delma.



Haha, so are you going to admit your wrong and apologise now? :lol: They're clearly Delmas, once you've seen a few it's obvious.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 18, 2013)

Sorry folks but Pythoninfinite and Echiopsis have it correct lol.


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## Echiopsis (Feb 18, 2013)

A fraseri from north of Koolyanobbing. The tongues are bifurcate though not to the degree of a snake. They're far fleshier with only the tip split. They will lick their heads/ eyes, something a snake will never do.




Delma fraseri by Jordan Vos, on Flickr




Delma fraseri by Jordan Vos, on Flickr


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## Echiopsis (Feb 18, 2013)

The above is a young adult, the degree of patterning and it's intensity vary with age.


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## Echiopsis (Feb 18, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> The incident you refer to Jamie happened 26th November 2010 in GinGin where it was reported a dugite under 42cm bit a man on the toe (unconfirmed if it was between them) and he later died.
> 
> I remember seeing you chase a particularly aggressive dugite around 5ft long across a certain bird shop carpark! I was surprised to see how fast that snake could actually move.
> 
> ...



The snake was a Western Brown as far as I was told, not a Dugite.


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## mrkos (Feb 18, 2013)

Echiopsis said:


> Haha, so are you going to admit your wrong and apologise now? :lol: They're clearly Delmas, once you've seen a few it's obvious.


Apologies pythoninfinite


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## Wing_Nut (Feb 18, 2013)

Echiopsis said:


> The snake was a Western Brown as far as I was told, not a Dugite.



My apologies, you are correct. It was a western brown. I had dugite on my mind.

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## Jonesy1990 (Jun 9, 2013)

Found out they are masters snakes


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## GeckPhotographer (Jun 9, 2013)

Jonesy1990 said:


> Found out they are masters snakes




WHO on Earth said that???? They are clearly NOT.


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## Jonesy1990 (Jun 10, 2013)

Yea sorry, definitely not masters lol my bad


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