# Is it OK to Kill off Unwanted 'Fugly' Pythons - Whats your Opinion?



## Gecko :) (Sep 1, 2010)

Ok,.. Leading on from a thread that was circulating yesterday that for some reason has since been deleted!? - Why it was deleted I have no idea! in my opinion people need to know what is going on with the chase of the RPM & Jags.

I am interested to hear other peoples opinion on this topic.
But please keep it clean as I dont wish for this thread to also be deleted - as I said I think it is important as many people as possible know what is going on!

Is it ok to knowingly breed something that very well could produce a handful of nice looking hatchies and at the same time the majority of the clutch is full of avereage 'Fugly' (as most people were reffering to them ) hatchies that breeders are simply culling whether it be chucking in ther freezer or hit on the head with a hammer (or whatever method) do YOU think it is acceptable?

As mentioned in the last thread I knew this was happening but had no idea to what extent & also how many people seem to be so excepting of it?
In my honest opinion I would prefer not to seee any Jags & RPM's being produced if this is what is going to happen to the remainder of the clutch.

How the authorities are letting people get away with this selfish cruel act is totally beyond me:shock::evil:

What has happened to the true passion people had for Reptiles?:cry:


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## byron_moses (Sep 1, 2010)

im sure all the few people who are breeding these will do what is right for the animal and also stay in the guidelines of the law


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## Gecko :) (Sep 1, 2010)

ok,. what do you consider to be the right thing for the Animal?


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

This is just asking for it :lol:


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## byron_moses (Sep 1, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> This is just asking for it :lol:


 best thing is why bother starting it as it was the reason the last one was deleted


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## Gecko :) (Sep 1, 2010)

y is it asking for it?
I dont see how I have broken any rules?

I am assuming the last thread got deleted because of its heated discussion,. surely this isnt a topic that should be deleted or covered up! this is an open forums for discussions & IMO this is a pretty important discussion.

Mods if I have done something wrong please explain as it is not my intention to cause trouble or get booted yet again!


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

What happened to my thread...lol :?:?

I guess this is the right place to debate that topic...I am not going to get involved with this one though...good luck guys....


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## waruikazi (Sep 1, 2010)




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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

Gecko :) said:


> y is it asking for it?
> I dont see how I have broken any rules?
> 
> I am assuming the last thread got deleted because of its heated discussion,. surely this isnt a topic that should be deleted or covered up! this is an open forums for discussions & IMO this is a pretty important discussion.
> ...



I agree with Gecko and also was not my intention to cause trouble as well, I feel it is controversial but worth a good debate IF everyone can keep their emotions in hand and play nice without name calling, which I fall victim too sometimes, but its all good fun and only words, noone should ever take this stuff to heart... IF we do this, i'm sure it wont be deleted!

Thanks guys...we are all friends really hey??? If only on the forum...lol


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

waruikazi said:


>


 Your a bad man Gordo...i remember that thread I think.... lol


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## sarah_m (Sep 1, 2010)

I don't understand why anyone who loves reptiles would cull any of their animals just because they may be less attractive than others.
If they deliberately breed animals that they know will be ugly (and need killing) then I think this is irresponsable and ethically wrong, no matter how good looking a handful of the hatchies are.


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

Whether killing unwanted captive bred reptiles is acceptable or not is an ethical issue and opinions will probably differ from one person to the next.

The underlying concept is this: we, keepers / breeders / pet owners regard our animals as products of herpetoculture whilst the government agencies regard them as wildlife. Being under their "management", we have to follow their regulations. My concern is, if people are too vocal about killing excess stocks, hybridising, etc., the licencing departments could easily demand a Ethics Committee Approvals before issuing licences to keep. The same applies now for all scientific permits involving vertebrate fauna. Personally, I don't think it's unlikely to happen but the wind can change direction at any time. It would very handy and easy way to weed out the undesirables and considerably lower the reptile keeping community numbers.


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## waruikazi (Sep 1, 2010)

Another one of my best! 08 was a good year. Haha, that thread got me some attention from members who still have their knickers twisted up about it.

My interpretation of the laws that govern our hobby is that so long as our actions are humane we can privately use/do whatever with our animals however we want.


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 1, 2010)

speaking to people who are more "in the know"than myself have told me that freezing anything much bigger than a hatchy python could be quite a painful death as their body is still holding heat while sections of their body and blood are becoming frozen.as well as larger reptiles,freezing warm blooded animals(mice ,rats etc ) is not humain and is a painful death.
cheers
simon


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

You're funny, Gordo


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## waruikazi (Sep 1, 2010)

What about this.

Is it OK to euth animals that are different to the 'norm' abominations that wouldn't survive in the wild, like albinos etc?


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## kupper (Sep 1, 2010)

End of the day the jag siblings have heightened colors and you would be crazy to dong them all surely they could be used in jag line breeding ?


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## -Matt- (Sep 1, 2010)

Is there anything that states that we can't breed reptiles as 'feeders'?


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## burger (Sep 1, 2010)

Well, I'm all for killing off the fugly people, so why not pythons?

On a lighter note, next time someone has an 'ugly' jag they dont want, il take it off your hands free of charge


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## rayloz (Sep 1, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> Is there anything that states that we can't breed reptiles as 'feeders'?



YES there is it is AGAINST THE LAW to kill a protected species...........wether it be for a present ,a meal, or a feeder or any thing .....


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## jamesbecker (Sep 1, 2010)

burger said:


> Well, I'm all for killing off the fugly people, so why not pythons?
> 
> On a lighter note, next time someone has an 'ugly' jag they dont want, il take it off your hands free of charge



so you can kill it yourself?

why would you kill something because it doesnt look as nice as the others? sell it off cheap or give it to the newbies, they would be thrilled id bet..

further more why would you kill something you are so passionate about?


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> Is there anything that states that we can't breed reptiles as 'feeders'?


Interesting point and one I too thought about, well done Matt..
Reason:
I have heard stories about people feeding reptiles to "top shelf" BHP's as they wont take anything else, which at the end of the day is their preferred prey item in the wild...makes sense, is that illegal?
Dog breeders cull off ugly pups as well as breeders that want a specific trait for hunting dogs. i worked with a guy many many years ago that did exactly this, when breeding dogs for a specific type of hunting...took me aback then, but this is reality, which I dont like but it happens.
PLEASE guys this is NOT all breeders or probably NOT 99.999*% of them BUT it does happen.


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## waruikazi (Sep 1, 2010)

Can you produce a citation, a reference or anything to back up this claim?

I have killed more protected species than i can remember, i am yet to be charged.



rayloz said:


> YES there is it is AGAINST THE LAW to kill a protected species...........wether it be for a present ,a meal, or a feeder or any thing .....


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

jamesbecker said:


> why would you kill something because it doesnt look as nice as the others? sell it off cheap or give it to the newbies, they would be thrilled id bet..



Because "others" would take it as JAGs (or whatever). fiddle with it and the result will be - more fuglies. I wonder how many of those hats on the market are real hets. Selective breeding and keeping pure lines is a fickle business.


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

Question: Are Hybrids or crosses deemed to be a "protected species??


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I have killed more protected species than i can remember, i am yet to be charged.


 
Put it into your CV Gordo, it will make great impression.


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Because "others" would take it as JAGs (or whatever). fiddle with it and the result will be - more fuglies. I wonder how many of those hats on the market are real hets. *Selective breeding and keeping pure lines is a fickle business.*


 Spot on!!


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> Question: Are Hybrids or crosses deemed to be a "protected species??


 
As I understand it, all captive reptiles are regarded as *wildlife* by the authorities, therefore protected fauna.


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## Sock Puppet (Sep 1, 2010)

rayloz said:


> YES there is it is AGAINST THE LAW to kill a protected species...........wether it be for a present ,a meal, or a feeder or any thing .....


 
I wish someone would give me a frozen python for a present......sigh.....maybe this xmas 

What if one hatched deformed & couldn't feed? It's still a native, protected species (albeit captive bred). You couldn't sell it, you wouldn't use it for breeding. Better to leave it to slowly starve to death than to knock it on the head?
(Not having a go, just playing devil's advocate)


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## waruikazi (Sep 1, 2010)

VC or CV (And i have put in my CV actually lol)? and should i put my permit to do so on it too?



Waterrat said:


> Put it into your VC Gordo, it will make great impression.


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> VC or CV? and should i put my permit to do so on it too?



Just a typo.
Stop beating yourself in the chest, gorillas do that. How is your comment contributing to this discussion? Should we all get permits and kill protected wildlife?


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## ezekiel86 (Sep 1, 2010)

Dont freeze any RPMs or Jags if they are have 100% health ..just because their colours are not as bright as you thought...give them to me haha 
python in the freezer...swizzle stick for your drinks hey ..narrrr not cool hahaha


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

Hmmm, time to hang up.

cheers


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## ShaunMorelia (Sep 1, 2010)

ezekiel86 said:


> Dont freeze any RPMs or Jags if they are have 100% health ..just because their colours are not as bright as you thought...give them to me haha
> python in the freezer...swizzle stick for your drinks hey ..narrrr not cool hahaha



I think the discussion is more in relation to the siblings of RPM/JAG, not the RPM/JAGS themselves.


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## -Matt- (Sep 1, 2010)

To those that say "give the ugly offspring to me" - from what I understand part of the reason for freezing the offspring is to stop these 'fuglys' from getting into every novices hands and filling the market with undesirables...of course newbies will take them if they are cheap or free! They also have no idea what they are buying, will the offsring be sold off as say coastals or Jag coastal offspring? 

On the feeding thing - it is fairly common practice to feed skinks/geckoes to snakes that feed on these animals naturally. Why is it any different to use snakes (ie. the jag siblings) for the same purpose? I was under the impression that it was only illegal to kill wild reptiles but as Waterrat has pointed out our privately owned herps are still considered WILDlife to the authorities...


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## LadyJ (Sep 1, 2010)

It makes me sick... how is python 'a' any better of an animal than python 'b' because it 'looks pretty'. I understand selective breeding but surely someone could enjoy and care for a perfectly healthy animal (if not 'fugly'...) and enjoy it rather than a breeder simply culling it off? They might breed it yes... and produce more 'fugly' animals, but wouldn't that raise the worth of a 'non-fugly' python and end up best for whoever it is that sees it as that, keeping the expensive 'non-fugly' pythons out of the hands of the ever dreaded 'newbies' and rendering the pretty pythons rarer?


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2010)

So in reality the snakes bred from these hybrids not only suffer from neuro issues 

they also get culled if they aren't stunners :shock:

This to me screams money hungry JMO

*so what is it thats so great about them again?*


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## jamesbecker (Sep 1, 2010)

itbites said:


> So in reality the snakes bred from these hybrids not only suffer from neuro issues
> 
> they also get culled if they aren't stunners :shock:
> 
> ...



couldnt of said it any better..


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## Bushfire (Sep 1, 2010)

I dont really have a problem with humanely destroying captive breed stock if the owner/breeder deems it the most suitable option available to them. In the context of that jag thread, they were not talking about destroying all the jags. It was referring to those jags that wouldn't be able to function normally and the hybrid non jags (50% approx. of the clutch). Considering no one wants to buy hybrids that are not showing good colours, or those not wanting hybrid breeders to put false pure claims to unwanted hybrids I would have thought a large percentage would agree to dispose of them this way.


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## Chris1 (Sep 1, 2010)

sadly it seems to be part of some peoples idea of ok,..

earlier this year there was a thread posted called 'reptile sale slump', heres the link if it works for anyone, to me it keeps saying server is busy and wont show.
anyway, somewhere in the first couple of pages an APS user says he had trouble selling pure coastals, and instead of giving them away they went in the freezer. just cos they dared expect food and heating and were costing time and money, they werent hybrids, they werent sick, but the breeder put them into the too hard basket. 

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-discussion-42/reptile-sale-slump-129479/

fortunately i was suspended at the time and couldnty comment, lol,...otherwise i probably would have been permanetly bannned.

incase i didnt make myself clear in the deleted thread, im totally disgusted by anyone who would consider culling animals they deliberately bred that are in good health.
if something is deformed and going to die slowly due to being unable to eat, a helping had is more than acceptable, but imo thats the only time its acceptable.


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## Drakko (Sep 1, 2010)

What’s wrong with offering them to schools?

I'm sure that anyone who has hatchies that don't meet their aesthetic requirements would be knocked over in the rush to take them off their hands.

Bit of good will for the hobby & you can bring the next generation into the fold?

I have no idea about the rules & regulations regarding this, but I remember when I lived in Darwin that local schools were encouraged by PAW to take the offered crocs as school pets & projects, the schools had to pay for them (less than the public) & they were inundated.

Breeders ringing around their local schools & inviting them to get a licence & suitable enclosure, then giving them those they don't want would be great publicity.

If it's really popular, you may even get the support of the Education Departments of each State.

The main thing is, they're healthy living creatures that deserve the chance to live their multi decade lives, don't want them? Advertise them on forums like this "Less than aesthetically perfect snakes...... Free to a good home....... Pick up only" or if legislation says that they have to be paid for, charge $10.

Just please don't kill them.

Cheers

TD


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

I really can't decide where I sit on this issue....


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2010)

it has nothing to do with appearance!
IMO selling off the undesired bi-product of a breeding venture to newbie kids looking for a cheap snake to get their hands on seems money hungry to me!!! (each to their own though) 
and will be a massive downfall to the morelia in our hobby when these kids decide they want to follow suit and try to breed everything they have and sell them to the next generation!

would all the people commenting be happy to buy an average looking hybrid and work on a line of that type? or would you just prefer someone else bought them?


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

Drakko said:


> What’s wrong with offering them to schools?
> I have no idea about the rules & regulations regarding this, but I remember when I lived in Darwin that local schools were encouraged by PAW to take the offered crocs as school pets & projects, the schools had to pay for them (less than the public) & they were inundated.



TD, no offense, but you are right in that you don't understand the rules & regulations but I am sure you are a nice person and you mean well.

What happens to most of those "free to good home" cats and mongrel puppies? Just think of that.


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2010)

Farma said:


> it has nothing to do with appearance!IMO selling off the undesired bi-product of a breeding venture


 
Josh, think about what you're saying. A by-product?


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## -Matt- (Sep 1, 2010)

My opinion is that people can do whatever they like in their own homes with their own animals. No matter how much people argue about whether it is right or wrong on a forum it is not going to change a thing, it is still going to happen and has no doubt already been going on for a while behind closed doors.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2010)

Drakko said:


> What’s wrong with offering them to schools?
> 
> 
> not a bad idea but what does this teach our children about our native wild animals? as id assume that would be the reason for having them at a school?


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## Drakko (Sep 1, 2010)

Waterrat, none taken,

Point taken, I just don't like the idea of killing something that is physically healthy.

Cheers


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

Bushfire said:


> I dont really have a problem with humanely destroying captive breed stock if the owner/breeder deems it the most suitable option available to them. In the context of that jag thread, they were not talking about destroying all the jags. It was referring to those jags that wouldn't be able to function normally and the hybrid non jags (50% approx. of the clutch). Considering no one wants to buy hybrids that are not showing good colours, or those not wanting hybrid breeders to put false pure claims to unwanted hybrids I would have thought a large percentage would agree to dispose of them this way.


Thats the other side of the coin in a nutshell!
Now the flip side...is it worth having Jags and not improving our own PURE lines..part of my original question in the other thread.

The reality is they are here and we need to deal/manage this exciting/damning depending on where you stand branch in the old herp tree.. 
No need to bitch and moan, it needs to be addressed and managed so it doesn't end up like other Countries, we can learn from their issue and problems and learn from this, we are Aussies..OI OI OI


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

What if they were fed to something else? Like monitors or something.... I know legislation says they're protected, but we also know the market is flooded and we can't release them.... aside from the legislation, is it any different to the rats and mice we breed, and keep the pretty ones for further breeding?

Just a thought... Still haven't decided...


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 1, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> Thats the other side of the coin in a nutshell!
> Now the flip side...is it worth having Jags and not improving our own PURE lines..part of my original question in the other thread.
> 
> The reality is they are here and we need to deal/manage this exciting/damning depending on where you stand branch in the old herp tree..
> No need to bitch and moan, it needs to be addressed and managed so it doesn't end up like other Countries, we can learn from their issue and problems and learn from this, we are Aussies..OI OI OI



I think you're right, SM. It's good to talk about and deal with the issue before it happens, and not make the same mistakes as other countries with completely muddled lines and some really ugly stock getting around...


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2010)

yes michael if people are crossing snakes to create JAGS then their aim of the project isnt to create a non co-dom animal!
so if they must do it for their desired animals then why just pass off their sibs as well? is that to get a quick buck if they can?
if their aim was to create a hybrid of the same species then my veiw of that would be different but their not their crossing for something imparticular


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## Drakko (Sep 1, 2010)

Farma,

Honestly, I don't know, I was just posing an option that could let some of the reptiles bound for destruction live a life.

I'm out of the conversation as I'm letting my feelings for the animals get in the way of practicalities that I just don't know enough about.

Cheers

TD


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## cement (Sep 1, 2010)

This is the law of NSW
Everyone in NSW that holds a native animal licence is under this and it is a quote from the General Conditions of the licence.

"This licence authorizes the person named above to acquire,possess and DISPOSE of protected native animals of the species approved by the DECC to be held under a licence of the type and class and category (if any) shown above for the purpose of allowing the possession of a hobby collection of protected native animals."

Oh cool, i can kill my unwanted hatchlings.......

But read on...

"The licensee shall DISPOSE of protected native animals(that may be held under this licence) only to a person that is a holder of a current licence issued by the DECC that authorizes the possession and acquisition of those protected native animals, or to an appropriately licensed person interstate via an export licence issued by the DECC, or in any other case, only with the prior written consent of the Director General.

So unless you have the Director General on side, its illegal (in NSW) to kill unwanteds. This is what you sign up for in NSW. The words PROTECTED NATIVE ANIMAL seems to appear quite often within these general conditions.

Leaving ethics, morals and emotion out of it this is it, in black and white.
Maybe someone from the other states could state their law.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2010)

Drakko I really didnt mean to offend, and it was a very good suggestion 
you are entitled to your own views and opinions and you have every right to post your suggestions in here 

cheers 
Josh


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## Jungletrans (Sep 1, 2010)

How would anyone know what was happening anyway ? Nobody counts the eggs [ or even the no of clutches ] . You only have to notify them of live hatchies . Snakes often die on their own and all that is required is a number in the book . Personaly l would rather not see the market flooded with ugly mongrel pythons . lt would make sourcing pure breeding stock very difficult .


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## Bushfire (Sep 1, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> Thats the other side of the coin in a nutshell!
> Now the flip side...is it worth having Jags and not improving our own PURE lines..part of my original question in the other thread.


 
I would like to think we can do both, but like you said we are on this roller coaster now whether we like it or not so we dont have much of a choice. In a way its abit like a breeder keeping locality specific animals and non locality animals, can we trust that he wont mix them and claim the end result as his locality specific ones. We would love to say yes but will we really be able too.


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## Dukz13 (Sep 1, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> My opinion is that people can do whatever they like in their own homes with their own animals. No matter how much people argue about whether it is right or wrong on a forum it is not going to change a thing, it is still going to happen and has no doubt already been going on for a while behind closed doors.


 
i agree


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## Bushfire (Sep 1, 2010)

cement said:


> .... or in any other case, only with the prior written consent of the Director General.
> 
> So unless you have the Director General on side, its illegal (in NSW) to kill unwanteds.



Actually this refers to giving protected native fauna to someone who isnt licensed to hold bla bla bla not in the case of a death in your collection. When something dies I have never heard of anyone holding onto the body and requesting DECCW permission to dispose of the body.


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## cement (Sep 1, 2010)

Bushfire said:


> Actually this refers to giving protected native fauna to someone who isnt licensed to hold bla bla bla not in the case of a death in your collection. When something dies I have never heard of anyone holding onto the body and requesting DECCW permission to dispose of the body.



It refers to ANY other form of disposal.


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## zeke (Sep 1, 2010)

it shouldnt be done if you gona kill them just give them away to someone.
there are no ugly snakes!


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## Bushfire (Sep 1, 2010)

DECCW has already given you written permission to dispose of dead animals by this statement:

"This licence authorizes the person named above to acquire,possess and DISPOSE of protected native animals of the species approved by the DECC to be held under a licence of the type and class and category (if any) shown above for the purpose of allowing the possession of a hobby collection of protected native animals."


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## ad (Sep 1, 2010)

I agree, it shouldnt be done.

Do you love reptiles?


I gotta ask also, what have you done all these seasons past with your clutches????
EVERY clutch has variations from ugly to stunning, surely your 'principles' and callousness didnt start once you bought jags?


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## guzzo (Sep 1, 2010)

What will it be next....for Human consumption?....kangaroos,crocodiles,emus all get sold for human consumption.....All protected species too....what if someone decided to farm them for food?

Not that I am ever going to be interested in eating my pets though!

Where will it end?


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## Tikanderoga (Sep 1, 2010)

LadyJ said:


> Let's create a list of members willing to take in the ugly snakes... bet there would be enough demand to save a few lives!


Tbh, freebies for ppl who want to start with reptiles (aka Kids & Students) who can't afford a $100+ for a snake, just because it looks awesome is the perfect solution.
It's a win-win imho... the breeder "gets rid of the fuglies" and the newbie gets a snake for free. The rookie can invest the extra buck into the enclosure & accessories.
But again - this applies within reason ofc - a breeder will know if the kind of snake he wants to dispose would be suited to be a starter pet or not.


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## zeke (Sep 1, 2010)

thats an awsome idea!!! it should be done


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 1, 2010)

guzzo said:


> What will it be next....for Human consumption?....kangaroos,crocodiles,emus all get sold for human consumption.....All protected species too....what if someone decided to farm them for food?
> 
> Not that I am ever going to be interested in eating my pets though!
> 
> Where will it end?



A reality check people..AND on that note...thanks guzzo for bringing things into perspective to an extent. albeit off topic but "food" for thought (excuse the pun) none the less!
I remember Malcolm Douglas who used to live at the end of my street and we used to hang out at his place with his kids, used to eat snakes on TV Doco's, did he get prosecuted the same as Gordo? Nahh
Again the thread is of topic.
Good night guys....


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## icedmice (Sep 1, 2010)

Before I start I'm not personally attacking anyone or trying to tread on anyones toes. This is my personal opinion and I respect anyone that disagrees...

I'm not speaking from a snake breeders perspective. I don't even have a reptile yet.

Interesting to read it from a rodent breeder's perpective  . 

Just trying to get my head around it. So it's OK to cull undesirable rats and mice which are completely healthy otherwise and would probably make good pets for snake food. But not snakes?

I'm assuming we're only talking about mismarked ones not the weak and suffering offspring that might be produced. I don't believe it would be ethical for any variety of animal to keep it alive when it clearly does not have the quality of life every animal deserves.

I'm cool with people culling rats and mice for snake food, it's a realistic part of life. Even if it's a healthy one, you only want your scaleys to have the best after all because they are your pride and joy.


I'm awaiting my very first snake. Naturally I haven't been around long enough to tell a good one from a bad one so I hope the breeder will place me with a good example of the specimen. I'd choose a breeder I trust.

It will take pride of place in my animal family. I would always hope I wasn't placed with a breeders offloaded "fugly" because I'm a naiive newby.
I'd be OK if I found out the breeder I chose culled for quality, not excessivley or unessicarily but with the utmost consideration of what would be best for all reptiles.
You need to treat any animal you release like it would potentially be bred, if you don't want to see a bunch of poor examples comming into the market don't sell a poor example. If you choose not to cull as a consequence you should be prepared to keep any "fugly" animals and make sure they are also given the best quality of life, which like all animals, they also deserve. 


EDIT: Just to add, giving them away is not that much different then what I'm doing with a couple school kids with spare buck mice. Not that I don't feel guilty because I'm sure I could do better for them. For their first mice I would want to give them only the best. Ones that would place in show or at least set the bar a little higher for others out there. 
It's certainly an option but don't forget. If someone can't afford your snake, could they afford veterinary treatment if necessary?
A mouse will cost you on average $50 just for a consult at a regular vet. Cost me $200 to have a rat treated at the exotic vet. A rat is worth about $15-$25 from a breeder. If you can't afford that you can't afford to keep it I'm afraid  . Get a pet cactus  .


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## Ingrid (Sep 1, 2010)

Would love to see pictures of what are considered "fugly" snakes..


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## cement (Sep 1, 2010)

Bushfire said:


> DECCW has already given you written permission to dispose of dead animals by this statement:
> 
> "This licence authorizes the person named above to acquire,possess and DISPOSE of protected native animals of the species approved by the DECC to be held under a licence of the type and class and category (if any) shown above for the purpose of allowing the possession of a hobby collection of protected native animals."



Wrong. You are only reading the part you want. Read further into your licence conditions. They define disposal as passing on to another licence holder.

Get real mate, you won't find it is legal practice in NSW, whether you bake, boil or fry it.


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## cement (Sep 1, 2010)

icedmice said:


> Just trying to get my head around it. So it's OK to cull undesirable rats and mice which are completely healthy otherwise and would probably make good pets for snake food. But not snakes?
> 
> .



Yes mate that is right, and the reason is that lab rats and mice aren't PROTECTED NATIVE ANIMALS.

Not shouting at you just using the most common term in our licences.


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## sarah_m (Sep 1, 2010)

When did it suddenly become acceptable to cross breed? Not that long ago everyone was out for blood any time it was suggested (even by breeders from US and Europe, where it is the norm). What did I miss??:?

People don't cull the kids they breed cos they are ugly (as shown by the number of ugly kids walking around)


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2010)

sarah_m said:


> When did it suddenly become acceptable to cross breed? Not that long ago everyone was out for blood any time it was suggested (even by breeders from US and Europe, where it is the norm). What did I miss??:?
> 
> People don't cull the kids they breed cos they are ugly (as shown by the number of ugly kids walking around)




What happened was a popular snake breeding business offered up RMP's & opened the flood gates...
What's even more questionable is...where the "jag" originated from OVER SEAS.
So our Australian native hobby is becoming just the same as the yanks & alike 
If in future I am not able to distinguish specific Morelia sub species I will give up keeping them altogether!


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## Gecko :) (Sep 1, 2010)

itbites said:


> So in reality the snakes bred from these hybrids not only suffer from neuro issues
> 
> they also get culled if they aren't stunners :shock:
> 
> ...





itbites said:


> Funny how times have changed...
> ever since a certain business came forward with RPM's now they're all the rage.
> 
> A few years back the majority of keepers were anti-hybrid etc..
> ...


 
Itbites,. I couldnt agree more with your 2 posts,.. well said.

I have to say I am pleased to read more people seem to be against it rather than for it this time round,. I certainly didnt get that impression from yesterdays thread.

At the end of the day we cant control what other people do and there will always be irresponsible people that will do what they want ' cos its mine & I can do whatever I like'... unfortunately this is what money does to some people,.. and if it isnt about the money,. what do you claim it to be about?....certainly not for the love of the animal or for the passion of the Hobby.

It is a real shame alot of people have changed their attitudes about x'ing,. seems like only yesterday we all frowned upon this and now it seems to be the latest craze.
I am certainly not denying there are some stunning snakes being produced, but I dont think it is all worth it & should not be allowed.

As others have said, they are here now & their is not alot I, or anyone else can do about it, all I know is I wont be supporting any of it!

Thank you to everyone for keeping this thread going and thanks for your opinions including those that Pm'd me.


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2010)

For some reason it seems the tables have turned & those that were for hybridizing are now in the green

& the purists are now being shunned...I cannot for the life of me understand why or how things have changed.

In all honestly I can only hope that the majority of these hybrids end up with neurological issues & deter people 

from keeping, breeding (killing) & selling them to the public.


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## spongebob (Sep 1, 2010)

IMO:

1. The development of any breed (ie genetically manipulated strain) of animal by mankind has occurred by encouraging through successive generations those genes seen to be desired, at the expense of the undesired genes. Generally this has involved some kind of 'cull' or other way of ensuring separation of the gene pools. 

2. One of the best ways of making a mockery of the current native animal status of herps is to breed them into forms not found in nature.....hard to argue they are 'native' once they are pure bred "man made" lines

3. NSW licencing includes ownership of taxidermed specimens. The term "dispose" refers to a specimens change of status through sale,death or escape. Look on the example on the front page of your book regarding sending a species to the taxidermist after finding a specimen dead. OK it doesn't make it absolutely clear but doesn't spell out how the animal was found dead!!!


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## Scleropages (Sep 1, 2010)

Killing of the "ugly" ones is just sad.
I would quite happerly keep any fugley snakes , yucky jags or not , lol


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## cement (Sep 1, 2010)

There is nowhere on your licence that implicates disposal as killing. If you want to kill protected native wildlife you need a special permit.
If you don't beleive me then check with the DECC. Throwing around opinions and thoughts on here is nothing more then wishful fantasy.

I think what happened is that the x breeders just kept x breeding, and eventually DECC put some x's on the list of keepables because there were so many out there. This basically told everyone that it is ok to x breed, and the purists just gave up.
Then the x breeders take it further by having threads on here that try to justify it, and negative comments won't be tolerated,
But finally the truth about it is coming out, and lo and behold we now have them trying to justify killing the clutch mates that aren't pretty enough.

But don't get the wrong idea, they don't do it for money!! They just luuuuurve breeding snakes.

I am off this now, I am sick of it. People will do what they want, to hell with anything or anyone, laws, morals, ethics, nature and millions of years of natural evolution. Here come the chest beaters.


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2010)

cement said:


> There is nowhere on your licence that implicates disposal as killing. If you want to kill protected native wildlife you need a special permit.
> If you don't beleive me then check with the DECC. Throwing around opinions and thoughts on here is nothing more then wishful fantasy.
> 
> I think what happened is that the x breeders just kept x breeding, and eventually DECC put some x's on the list of keepables because there were so many out there. This basically told everyone that it is ok to x breed, and the purists just gave up.
> ...






++++ 1!!  

could not agree with you more!


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## Gecko :) (Sep 1, 2010)

Cement,.. you hit the nail on the head!


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2010)

cement I dont keep any x bred snakes or breed them or sell them all my stock is pure and will stay that way but i am all for the killing of unwanted crosses to protect the pure lines we have, not because i think they are ugly! im looking at the bigger picture of what our hobby will be in a few years


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2010)

They should not be bred to begin with!


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2010)

itbites said:


> They should not be bred to begin with!


 
in a perfect world!

point is they are!!
so all we can do is try to manage what happens next


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## Gecko :) (Sep 1, 2010)

is it still suppose to be illegal to x?


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## -Matt- (Sep 1, 2010)

Depending on what state you are in.


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## impulse reptiles (Sep 1, 2010)

Does IJ blood show up in a Carpet dna test?


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2010)

fusion said:


> Does IJ blood show up in a Carpet dna test?




Now that is an interesting question as they are exotics (as are jags imo) 
so it would be very interesting to see whether or not IJ blood flows in RPM's/jags..


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## cris (Sep 1, 2010)

In Qld i believe its legal to cull animals, but you cant use them as food(well not legally) unless the laws have changed again?

IMO all pythons should be kept alive, that way we can kill billions of animals to feed them even if they are unwanted.


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## icedmice (Sep 1, 2010)

cement said:


> Yes mate that is right, and the reason is that lab rats and mice aren't PROTECTED NATIVE ANIMALS.
> 
> Not shouting at you just using the most common term in our licences.



True, good point, didn't think about that. Thanks for taking the time to comment  . 
I realise your not shouting, I usually use italics but cheers for letting me know anyway  .

Still....many people that own rodents as pets would place equal value on their life as their pets snake. I know I will, there's a definate distinction as to what makes a good pet and what fills a snakes belly. 
From an emotional and not legal viewpoint it does seem odd. That's if you truely believe all animals are deserving of equal rights or if some deserve better treatment than others.
Indeed many have passionately responded with strong emotions, and clearly it would make no difference wheather the law condoned it or not.

I've got to admit though if I accidentaly throw an albino plains rat I'm not likely going to throw it on the "discarded" pile because it doesn't look wild. 
It's not like people would delibrately breed aggressive or fearful snakes because they were more "wild". There would need to be some aspect of domestication if your keeping them in a captive enviornment, like breeding for snakes that aren't snappy and feed well in captivity. Every one wants a happy pet.


Oh and yeah back to the original question which I didn't answer. _*If*_ I were a reptile breeder then no, personally I wouldn't cull. If I had fugly snakes I'd either 
A) Keep them (like my retirement setup for old or unshowable mice) probably in a large outdoor enclosure or 
B) Allow a home to adopt it for minimal price with the agreement it was not to be used for breeding. Like a pedigreed dog that it's suitable for show (except they're usually desexed at 6 months).
That would be my personal choice to ensure only good animals go into breeding programs. I wouldn't look down at anyone that would have a different practice.

Again, not talking about sickly creatures, I'd seek a vet to humanley euthanise suffering individuals not unlike my rodents. Protected species or not, prolonging suffering in unacceptable.

About hybridisation, that's a different matter. Also a sensitive issue. May I suggest a new topic? 
Its a matter that probably does deserve a section of it's own.


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## Ersatz (Sep 1, 2010)

They don't kill the ugly dogs of the litter when they are breeding them to sell. They slap a cheaper price on them and sell them to someone who just wants a dog to love, not to show or breed.


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## Jay84 (Sep 1, 2010)

Ersatz said:


> They don't kill the ugly dogs of the litter when they are breeding them to sell. They slap a cheaper price on them and sell them to someone who just wants a dog to love, not to show or breed.



I think you will find alot of dog breeders will cull.


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## Ersatz (Sep 1, 2010)

Ah, well I just picked up mine cheap because it was one of the uglier ones in the litter. I think hes the cutest dog you'll ever see to be honest!!


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## icedmice (Sep 1, 2010)

Yep, usually this also involved desexing of the pup at 6 months of age. A good breeder will follow it up unless it's on the main register.
For those familiar with DOL check out Leo's story. I painful reminder that "pet" dogs should be desexed.

Culling doesn't necessarily mean "killing" it means removal of the animal from a breeding program. Desexing is one method of controlling less desireables from being bred.
Culling is often the term used when referring to killing though so it often brings out strong emotions.

You could rehome a fugly snake but to be ethical about it a new homes should be made aware it is not an ideal breeding specimen. 
I don't think it's acceptable at all to offload it to new fanciers like your doing them a favour.
Otherwise the market will be flooded with shonky examples...not unlike a lot of pure bred dog breeds. You only need to look through pet chain stores to see what I mean.


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## icedmice (Sep 1, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> I think you will find alot of dog breeders will cull.




Yes they do, not so common in Australia. You won't be very popular if you chose to do it. 
With racing greyhounds it certainly happens, it's not a hidden fact. Money is one motivation but also the fact that it is unrealistic to expect to find good homes for all exracing greyhounds.

I don't race greyhounds either. I just know a bunch of junk....don't ask.


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## Dipcdame (Sep 1, 2010)

itbites said:


> They should not be bred to begin with!


 
Hear Hear!!


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## apprenticegnome (Sep 1, 2010)

I am only a newbie and haven't been introduced to the x breeding scene but I do have a few points of interest.
1. X breeding is meddling with nature in a big way. It introduces new unforseen problems and run rampant with human intervention destroys natural bloodlines. Why not keep the breeds as nature intended with only odd occasional x breeds in the wild. My personal feelings are that crossing should be illegal.
2- Culling off unwanteds because they are not asthetically pleasing to the eye is motivated by greed. I accept that people breed reptiles for a financial return but if it won't sell and they are not prepared to keep, sell at a reduced price or give away, then they only look at their so called "pets" as baby making factories and are only protecting their financial interests and not of others.
3- Wouldn't it be considered by purests that all x breeds are fuglies no exceptions. If it is acceptable to kill fuglies than all crossbreeds should be killed.
4. Killing of terminally ill or badly injured pets in the interests of reducing suffering should be the only acceptable reason.
I accepted when I bought my python that it is a lifetime commitment, regardless of how snappy, agressive or disfigured he may be, I will never destroy or sell him and he will die of either old age or accidental injury in my care. Any snakes I may breed from him and a female yet to be purchased, if can't be sold or come out less than appealing to the eye I will commit to keep or pass on to someone else who is likeminded and not worried about how many people will judge whether it is of trophy quality or be accepted in thier elitest social group.


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## Cheyne_Jones (Sep 2, 2010)

sarah_m said:


> When did it suddenly become acceptable to cross breed? Not that long ago everyone was out for blood any time it was suggested (even by breeders from US and Europe, where it is the norm). What did I miss??:?
> 
> People don't cull the kids they breed cos they are ugly (as shown by the number of ugly kids walking around)



When the bottom dropped out of the market with the GFC and over supply and people "discovered" a morph that is easy to breed, can be produced quickly in good numbers and is worth mega dollars while most other morelia drop in price significantly...


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## cheddah (Sep 2, 2010)

Culling for a reason if done so humanely, i think should be excepted. Breeders need some rights to do what they do best.

If breeders didnt cull your likely to end up with morphs of morphs and it gets very messy. Morphs are always going to be in demand, we seem to be drawn to anything different or new to the market. Right or wrong. Then when its hard to find pure stock they become the 'in' thing again, funny how it swings in round a bouts.

With out culling its likely you will end up with unwanted reptiles which is not good, they suffer a lot more than the ones that are culled in the beginning imo.

Just another way to look at it i suppose.


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## cheddah (Sep 2, 2010)

Sadly no, theyre breeding whats in demand its as simple as that. All im saying is, stopping culling isnt necessarily a good thing. Stop the demand for morphs would be the way to go, but that isnt going to happen any time soon. 

So best they cull some of the crap and we get some quality morphs and keep our pure stuff as we always have.

Pure is the master race if you ask me .


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## waruikazi (Sep 2, 2010)

apprenticegnome said:


> I am only a newbie and haven't been introduced to the x breeding scene but I do have a few points of interest.
> 1. X breeding is meddling with nature in a big way. It introduces new unforseen problems and run rampant with human intervention destroys natural bloodlines. Why not keep the breeds as nature intended with only odd occasional x breeds in the wild. My personal feelings are that crossing should be illegal.
> 2- Culling off unwanteds because they are not asthetically pleasing to the eye is motivated by greed. I accept that people breed reptiles for a financial return but if it won't sell and they are not prepared to keep, sell at a reduced price or give away, then they only look at their so called "pets" as baby making factories and are only protecting their financial interests and not of others.
> 3- Wouldn't it be considered by purests that all x breeds are fuglies no exceptions. If it is acceptable to kill fuglies than all crossbreeds should be killed.
> ...


 
This is where i think the real problem lies. A disproportionate number of keepers are or want to be breeders.


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## waruikazi (Sep 2, 2010)

Michael my comments are probably more valid than your responses to them. It is legal to humaney kill protected native fauna contrary to what Rayloz claims, the same as it is legal to keep proctected animals under the right circumstances. Protected doesn't mean untouchable.



Waterrat said:


> Just a typo.
> Stop beating yourself in the chest, gorillas do that. How is your comment contributing to this discussion? Should we all get permits and kill protected wildlife?


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## JasonL (Sep 2, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> I think you will find alot of dog breeders will cull.


 
Ahh, the dark old days of purebred "line" breeding, pups were drowned in a pail of water if they didn't cut the mustard..... still happens daily with farm dogs but for other reasons... 

Its just a fact of life when we humans are chasing desired traits in a particular animal to meet a standard or increase value, some breeders don't want to "move on" their below standard animals for various reason ie; waste of their time, don't want to flood the market, don't want their name associated with poor quality animals ect ect... Life is a cruel thing, and we do our best to keep it that way.


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## Cheyne_Jones (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree with culling animals that are deformed or have neurological short commings, but animals that are specifically bred by us for certain colours/looks etc then cull them because you dont like how they look? Come on!

The way I look at it is, are you a reptile enthusiast and lover or are you in for the money... A reptile enthusiast could never kill an animal just because it doesnt look how you want it to. And if you are breeding these co-dom morphs that create these undesirable sibs then I think its your responsibility to give them a loving home for life, or find one for them! I have always been very vocally against these animals for many reasons, this being one of them. Like it or not, keeping morelia has changed forever, for better or worse I guess that depends which side of the fence you sit on.


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## Waterrat (Sep 2, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> It is legal to humaney kill protected native fauna contrary to what Rayloz claims, the same as it is legal to keep proctected animals under the right circumstances. Protected doesn't mean untouchable.


 
I know and acknowledge that Gordo, but I though there is no need to boast about it on a forum where the majority of members are against such activities. Right or wrong, that puts you in a red spotlight. Too much honesty can fly into your face.


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## waruikazi (Sep 2, 2010)

I appreciate your concern but to honest a bit of honesty has never phased me . I also thought it was important to this topic to point out that protected does not mean that these animals can't be killed to suit our purposes. It happens on a daily basis, for whatever reason, to other native animals and reptiles are in no way different. We as reptile enthusiast shouldn't be putting reptiles on a pedastal. I havce a little more to write on this topic should the conversation go that way but for now i need to go and teach my class.



Waterrat said:


> I know and acknowledge that Gordo, but I though there is no need to boast about it on a forum where the majority of members are against such activities. Right or wrong, that puts you in a red spotlight. Too much honesty can fly into your face.


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## Waterrat (Sep 2, 2010)

I don't think the _conservation status_ of animals is important, after all it's just a tag that bureaucrats put on them. However, if we take the opportunity to keep, breed, display, relocate, etc., protected fauna, we should do it with high moral and ethical standards.
Keep in mind that this and other threads on here are also red by animal liberationists and certain bureaucrats who would welcome the opportunity to take that privilege away from us. Here we are dishing it out for them.


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## sarah_m (Sep 2, 2010)

IMO (I know people will disagree) breeders that kill off undesirable, ugly snakes are as bad if not worse than the people that see a snake and grab a shovel. 
Though wrong, they are acting out of fear of a perceived threat, as opposed to greed, which I think is worse.


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## LadyJ (Sep 2, 2010)

sarah_m said:


> IMO (I know people will disagree) breeders that kill off undesirable, ugly snakes are as bad if not worse than the people that see a snake and grab a shovel.
> Though wrong, they are acting out of fear of a perceived threat, as opposed to greed, which I think is worse.



+1


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## rayloz (Sep 2, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I have killed more protected species than i can remember, i am yet to be charged.



thats easy u just havent been caught ....lol


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## cheddah (Sep 2, 2010)

no one likes the thought of culling, but its part of life get over it. 

dont you lot feed rats to your snakes....

some guy ate a dog in nz recently. most people wouldnt agree with that either as we see dogs as mans best friend. No different to chickens, cows, pigs and so on if you ask me. But atleast he killed it humanely, for a reason (what ever that was i cant remember) and well lets face it, he didnt let it go to waste. Just like mother nature intends things to be lol


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## cheddah (Sep 2, 2010)

Chris1 said:


> my list has begun,....


 
stick to pure species of naturally occurring colour or lack of and your half way there..


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## jahan (Sep 2, 2010)

What constitutes a fugly snake?


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## Ahket (Sep 2, 2010)

I can understand people getting emotional about this subject, but, it happens in most industries, like dog and cat breeders etc.
Some humans are just plain cruel and out for the dollars. If an animal is fugly it's probably not saleable, and if you can't sell it, it's destroyed one way or another. Personally, I could'nt destroy any animal on purpose. I accidently ran over a blue tongue and was upset about it for a couple of weeks, made me feel better when I saved one from drowning in our pool though. I would not let myself get into a position where I'd have to make that decision.


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## waruikazi (Sep 2, 2010)

No it's actually because i haven't broken any laws.



rayloz said:


> thats easy u just havent been caught ....lol


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## zuesowns (Sep 2, 2010)

culling happens with all types of animals, species. I don't necessarily think it's specific to reptiles, the person(s) that do it, will do it to any animal, reptile etc.

They don't breed for the love of the reptiles, passion, hobbie. No real reptile lover/animal lover would harm one.

What are they doing it for? 

I can only see $. Pure beautiful looking jags = $.


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## sarah_m (Sep 2, 2010)

zuesowns said:


> What are they doing it for?
> 
> I can only see $. Pure beautiful looking jags = $.


But what is the point breeding them if they are going to have significant health issues? I don't quite understand how genetics work, but is it a large % that end up with problems?
I don't see why people would shell out big $ for an animal that they know may not survive anyway.
I know I would rather an average looking snake that was healthy as opposed to a stunner that may have to be put down due to poor (or in this case cross) breeding.


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## vinny86 (Sep 2, 2010)

some might say its bad for the hobby, but this is going to happen and the RPM breeders only want top quality animals.... Why would they fork out all the coin for the RPMS just to get top quality snakes...
If they didnt give a rats about the hobby and wanted more $$ they would sell all these 'fugly' snakes to who-ever for a quick buck, the market will then have newbs and a like wanting to breed these 'fuglys' down the track causing more and more mutts!

but if the rpm breeders only keep the stock of what they are trying to achieve they will be able to sell a qualtiy line to buyers who are willing to pay for it!!
The market is already flooded, so why would you want it flooded with these snakes arent what people are looking for?


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## wasgij (Sep 2, 2010)

this discussion is now just going around in circles


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## zuesowns (Sep 2, 2010)

sarah_m said:


> But what is the point breeding them if they are going to have significant health issues? I don't quite understand how genetics work, but is it a large % that end up with problems?
> I don't see why people would shell out big $ for an animal that they know may not survive anyway.
> I know I would rather an average looking snake that was healthy as opposed to a stunner that may have to be put down due to poor (or in this case cross) breeding.


 
The "average" looking snakes are beautiful, pure australian native pythons are. but then again these jags look nice too, they are stunners.


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## Colin (Sep 3, 2010)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat-39/best-way-kill-toad-143369/

I thought I'd post this thread link here to show the hypocrisy of people up in arms over the culling of a snake but delight in the sadistic tortue and killing of another "less popular" living creature.. 

I believe all living creatures should be given respect and treated humanely at all times.. 

as I said in my final comment in this toad thread.. I'd normally remove this sort of stuff (toad thread) from the forum but feel that it may serve a purpose left here to show the hypocrisy towards living creatures not "as popular" as others. 

one may be a protected native species and one an introduced pest, but both are living creatures and should be shown some respect and both be treated humanely at all times. cheers


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