# Diamond Jungle Jaguar



## SunRiseReptiles (Mar 4, 2006)

Just want to show you some pics of my 03 female. She is the result of breeding a Regular Jaguar male to a 75% Diamond x 25% Jungle hybrid female. This is as close as I can get to the real colours of her. She still improves, I wonder how long this will go on and how she looks like in another two more years!

Cheers Mark


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 4, 2006)

wouldn't that be worth some dollars in Aus. How much would that sell for in Europe Mark?


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## Spike14 (Mar 4, 2006)

:shock: :shock: :shock: OMG :shock: :shock: :shock: I WANT HER :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Rennie (Mar 4, 2006)

Nice looking python mate


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## newtosnakes (Mar 4, 2006)

See..... another one.... :lol:


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## SunRiseReptiles (Mar 4, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> wouldn't that be worth some dollars in Aus. How much would that sell for in Europe Mark?



I don´t actually know what she will be worth at this age (she´s an ´03). But you can buy a hatchie of the first generation for aprox 2500 euro, that will be around 4500 Aus $.


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## redline (Mar 4, 2006)

i cant wait for aus 2 get snakes like that. nice snake dude.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 4, 2006)

Many keepers in AU have been against x breeding for many years, but recently alot of them are now turning to the darkside.
The way things are going lately, I am expecting to see alot locally in the future.
With animals as beautiful as that specimen I may have to leave the "purist group" myself as it is easy to see the fascination with creating unique morphs.


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## pugsly (Mar 5, 2006)

Mate that is some sensational photography just love the Macro shots keep it up!


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## jnglgrl (Mar 5, 2006)

OMG im so jealous, i will be coming back2 look at these pics no doubt lol :mrgreen:
She is realy, realy pretty


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## SnakePower (Mar 5, 2006)

Your telling me, Jnglgrl, this is the 5th time I have looked at the tread to look at that beauty!


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## jnglgrl (Mar 5, 2006)

lol, and im back already2 :lol:


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## Jules (Mar 5, 2006)

Beautiful snake. I love the Jags. Just wondering what characteristics are you hoping to gain from the diamond python? Leopard spots?


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## TrueBlue (Mar 5, 2006)

Just another crappy mongrel if you ask me.
If all this does start happening in oz most will be put down by parks as its still ilegal in most states to produce mongrels.


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## ad (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes Trueblue through morphs and interbreeding they have managed to produce a coastal that resembles a jungle. 
I cant see the point myself, Give me a locality jungle anyday - this is just some pretend processed wannabe.
ad


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## TrueBlue (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree ad, especally when there are pure coastals out there that look more jungle than alot of jungles do. Why not just keep them.?


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## Dicco (Mar 5, 2006)

I'm with Rob and Ad, the animal isn't that amazing, we already have some of the most stunning Pure Jungles already, some of which tower over that in quality without the need to muddy the waters. Through line breeding pure animals you get much better results than just slapping two different carpets together.


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## obee (Mar 5, 2006)

Just a mongrel in my eyes.Unfortunately I know of ppl doing this in oz.Parks don't have the resources or expertise to police this unfortunately.

obee


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## TrueBlue (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes well Ive known of a few mongrels that have ended up in QLD over the years and as soon as parks see the animals in most cases they have been confiscated. So buyers beware. Lets hope this keeps happening so the idiots breeding these mongrels here will stop if they have no market for them.


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## beknluke (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't care how many species that animal is crossed from - it could be crossed with a border collie for all I care :lol: But to me, that is one beautiful looking snake and I would buy it if I had the $$

Luke


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## Vat69 (Mar 5, 2006)

This got posted for aesthetic reasons right? Not to get up on a soap box and preach the gospel on why it's good to mix bloodlines?
Pretty animal


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## steve6610 (Mar 5, 2006)

it's a shame some people don't get over it, 

take them for what they are,

great looking snake and if i had the chance i'd buy it before most of the so called pure snakes that get bred here,


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## Retic (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree, it's a spectacular animal and your comment on the 'so called' pure animals is spot on. If people don't like them that's fine, don't buy one.


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## Parko (Mar 5, 2006)

That's right Boa if we dont like Hybrids we don't need to buy them, yet. But if we keep following the overseas mixed up designer path we wont have a choice will we? My belief is we should keep our subspecies as pure as is reasonably possible, it may not be completely possible due to all the keepers who love hybrids but we can slow down the contamination at least. I respect all viewpoints, you have a right to love hybridising our species(or man made intergrading if you like) and we have a right to criticise you for it.


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## Retic (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't agree that you really have the right to criticise us for it, you have the right to disagree of course. It is still prefectly possible to buy pure animals overseas but it is also possible to buy morphs, you certainly have a choice.


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## Dicco (Mar 5, 2006)

I believe we hold the right to critisise as we are affected by your choices. It will be extremely hard to trust any albino carpet in the future because people are choosing to be impatient and greedy and are just crossing over to achieve albinos of the different forms instead of waiting for real albinos of the other forms to pop up. People for some unknown reason will get a hybrid, say a diamond/brisbane, then cross it to a Diamond?? It Achieves nothing, and if it ever gets bred chances are the offspring will be sold as Diamonds making it harder to trust the purity of animals.

Overseas it's pretty much impossible to buy pure forms of things they can't import, the carpets over there are a horrible mess, everyone thinks the US is amazing but they can hardly tell what some of their carpets are and they're still making it worse, I dred the day we are just like the USA...


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## Parko (Mar 5, 2006)

boa said:


> I don't agree that you really have the right to criticise us for it, you have the right to disagree of course. It is still prefectly possible to buy pure animals overseas but it is also possible to buy morphs, you certainly have a choice.


 Sure I have the right to criticise you, as long as i'm not breaking this forums rules I have the right to say whatever i like. Like this for example ''I think your name is a silly name for an aussie snake forum'' there you go i just criticised you :wink: 
This site is really valuable to keepers of Australian species because we predominately talk of our experience with Australian species,we try to learn about Aussie species and sub species, you can't rely on most overseas sites for that because you mostly just get all their designer hybrid jargon. As for morphs, who said anything about morphs?


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## lutzd (Mar 5, 2006)

Ha! Gotcha Parko! You obviously haven't read rule 13!


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## NoOne (Mar 5, 2006)

Well said Parko, If all the hybrid keepers can 100% guarantee us that it won't affect people buying or keeping pure reptiles, go for it if you want to. Hybridise but don't expect people to just 'get over it' some of us like reptiles for more than just money or strange looks or seeing what we can create.


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## Parko (Mar 5, 2006)

lutzd said:


> Ha! Gotcha Parko! You obviously haven't read rule 13!


Damn that rule 13, but i believe the hidden clause 13a makes void rule 13 in this case.(I was about to check if there is a rule 13, but then i thought i've lasted this long without reading the rules....)


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## Simple (Mar 5, 2006)

Nice snake. But for all of the nice ones produced there would be some really ordinary ones (probably not saleable) What happens to them?


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## Retic (Mar 5, 2006)

The only people who can 100% guarantee an animals origin is the person who picked it up in the wild. I have repeatedly said I personally like both pure and hybrids, others don't have to agree and I wouldn't expect them to, as is the case with everything some do and some don't. 
It is impossible to expect everyone who breeds hybrids to 100% guarantee everyone else it couldn't possibly affect buyers of pure animals, as I have always said a hybrid/cross whatever should always be advertised as such. 
How many people on here can 100% guarantee that everyone of their animals is pure ?


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## foxdingo (Mar 5, 2006)

I think that there is some amazing looking morphs out there, and If I was able to get a snake like that then I would! I like to see something different and new. 
Great looking snake mate keep up the great work!


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## Jungleland (Mar 5, 2006)

Hybrid, Mongrel, Cross, For some herpers this words are BAD words, though I agree with boa, you don't like them don't buy them, You think it's too expensive, don't buy them, We have a choice,that's one beauty of this hobby One thing I know for sure, If a pythons like that gets breed here in Oz and comes available to me and I can afford it, I will definately have 1/2 dozen of them


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## celticskull (Mar 5, 2006)

man someone puts up some pic of one hell of a nice snake and the cross breeding crap starts flowing
you people should take it as it is just some nice pics of an overseas snake
if and when thay get snakes like that here the people that want them will buy them if you dont like them and want a pure breed then im sure there will be some left for you
i think people should come to understand if its what people want then its what people will get no matter how much you bitch and moan its still going to happen and i for one will have my hand out to buy one


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## pugsly (Mar 5, 2006)

yeah.. what he said..

Nice snake mate, if and when they start popping up here there are plenty of people willing to buy them, and plenty who arent. No different to anything else. You have people who like them and accept them and those who cant stand them. 

We just love going around in circles..


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## Allan (Mar 6, 2006)

Trueblue & Ad,
I agree with both of you, but look at what has been happening in the US and Europe over the last 2 decades. I have been involved in both markets as a hobbyist and seen all the strange but beautiful things that have been hatched and also attracted a lot of people to our hobby.. I hope Australian herpers wiill still keep breeding pure bloodlines, but still being openminded enough to see that your future to keep the herp hobby alive and growing & attract the numbers, you have to embrace the world of albinos/hets/possible hets /impossible hets. As sad as it sounds, I'm still an optimist. Maybe. No, can someone direct me to a breeder of quality redtails.


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## Livewire (Mar 6, 2006)

SunRiseReptiles, that is one awesome looking python. Simply stunning!!! It's good to see other herpers around the world sharing their herps on this site. I would like to thank SunRiseReptiles for doing so, please send more pics of other pythons you may have. 

I would also like to say that I understand the concern of what some of the guys are saying about crossbreeding. They have good reason to be against it, but at the same time we can't be to critical of the people that don't share the same sentiments. It comes down to personal choice.

Just my two bobs worth!!!

cheers.


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## SunRiseReptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

Dear all,

I do respect everyones opinion! We too have the same discussion over and over again, which I think is very important. I also try to keep certain bloodlines pure as possible. But on the other hand we try to breed some designers by selective breeding. With increasing the diamond blood we try to establish more intense yellow in them. They also become more reduced and clear (withhout any black tipping). The pictures doesn´t really do justice to this beautiful designer, she´s absolutely one of the nicest I ever saw, bright almost fluorescend yellow with white eyes! I own an 03 and 04 female. All the jag hatchies were stunning and the sibs simply amazing (see picture of one of the sibs bred by Precision Reptiles). Last season they breed the second generation which are even more yellow!

I will show you in a new topic one of my jungle diamond cross and you can see what I mean by selective breeding!

This is one of the sibs of the diamond jungle jag clutch!
Enjoy Mark


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

> I also try to keep certain bloodlines pure as possible.


No you dont.
Fancy coming on an Australian site showing us how you have mongreled our beautiful native species.
Wanna buy some plastic tulips? How about some cane clogs?
You even show us your very average bredli and everyone politely says 'nice snake' but really, its like trying to sell ice to the eskimoes a bit isnt it?
Sorry to be blunt, Im sure you are used to the yank sites where they go all gooey and claim how wonderful you are for thinking up such a great name for you latest designer xbreed, what are you trying to achieve here?
Ad


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## SunRiseReptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

ad said:


> > I also try to keep certain bloodlines pure as possible.
> 
> 
> No you dont.
> Ad



How can you be so sure! You didn´t even try to know me better and draw such conclusions. I don´t going to argu about this with you in such a manner. 

First of all I´m not a Yank, second I never claimed that I had a special Bredl, at least she is pure! Although for me she´s special but avarage to you, fine end of discussion. 

Just want to show you my ``fency`` carpets???? Sorry, I really enjoy carpets for more then 20 years and try to learn about them every day. I enjoy sharing experiences and hope to learn a lot more about them in the future. Never intented to insult anyone. You have a very strange way to say hello to a foreigner.

Bye the way, tulips an clogs...... a bit narrow minded too.

Cheers Mark


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## Caveman (Mar 6, 2006)

Hey sunrise just ignor the prick like comments!

Nice Snake dude!


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## TrueBlue (Mar 6, 2006)

I have no problem with designer mongels being produced as long as it stays over seas.
Sadji sumed it up a while back by saying that in a few years if this carries on over here, it will soon be impossible to tell what is what and pure animals will be a thing of the past unless people start rapeing the wild, and even then most animals will have a cloud of dought over them. Take that pic of the jungle-diamond-jag mongel Ive seen a few pure jungles that you could call sibblings of that animal, one being a road kill, so not even selectively breed in captivity, but a pure wild animal, This IMO is what will cause all the probs and dought, no one for sure will no what is what and this is a very bad thing. I personally hope parks gets wind of these incompetent fools over here that are set on destroying our pure lines and removes the animals and revokes their licences permently. Come on parks if your reading this, do your job and get out there and squash these idiots and remove them from our hobby.


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

> How can you be so sure! You didn´t even try to know me better and draw such conclusions.



If I was looking for a locality breeder, I would find one - not someone who hybrids animals and says - yes i really do try to keep pure lines - trust me.
I thought the tulips would make you realize I understand you are dutch - the analogy being me getting on a dutch tulip lovers site and saying Ive hybridized a tulip with a daffodil and called it a 'sunset dafolip" - its much better than the standards. Im sure all the members would think im great and quite a legend.
You say you want to learn more about carpets - hard when you are crossing to know true carpets, you are mixing temperments etc. as well as pattern and colour. 
maybe you could join an aussie site and ask questions, Maybe you should talk to people like trueblue who has seen 1000's of carpets in their natural environment, maybe you could view past threads and see some of the wild carpet pics and what people are breeding here with our native animals.Or
you could just post up some pics of your latest 'sunset dafolip' and expect a rosy welcome from everyone.
Ad


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

The facts are that designer morphs will happen, love them or hate them they will happen. That does NOT mean the end of pure animals.
I'm not sure why some people think you can only have one or the other, that really is absurd and to call people who breed them idiots really is insulting because you don't agree.
As is the situation overseas we will still be able to buy pure animals, there are numerous breeders with pure lines, morphs do not mean the end for pure animals. Yes if people don't do the right thing and advertise exactly what the animal is then it could cause problems but that has been happening for years and always will.


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

They will happen Boa and it will put a cloud over everyones line- esp morph breeders.
If someone hatches a genuine albino diamond in future seasons - will anyone be sceptical?
Unlike internationally - we dont have the population to support a huge designer industry, people who pay good money for animals are breeders - the more that breed the cheaper the animal gets until petshop firsttimers are buying them cheap.
The thing about designers in Aust. is that no breeders will pay top money for the hybrids, leaving you with a market of newbies who wont spend the money you think you will earn from them.
It will be interesting to see NPWS stance on hybrid breeders in Aust. - Time will tell - hopefully by advertising them people will get a visit to explain themselves.
Ad


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## TrueBlue (Mar 6, 2006)

Boa,- once it becomes common over here, even pure animals will be in dought in a lot of cases, and that is my point.
As its illegal in oz to produce hybrids, maybe the people that want and are breeding them should just move oversaes, that way they can mongerlise as many animals as they want with out tainting our hobby before it gets out off control.


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## Kris (Mar 6, 2006)

Hey, this is Kris' other half Kersten, I don't mean to throw off the topic here but I had a question and since he's not home for me to ask (and it relates to this topic) I thought I'd ask you guys instead....
Does hybridising/morphing/intergrading or whatever it's called produce genetic defects in the animals at any stage? Scuse me if it sounds like a remarkably stupid question, I was just wondering since (I'm assuming) these animals don't interbreed commonly that perhaps this can lead to problems down the line??


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

The question is a little broad but a intergrade is basically just a cross between 2 carpets for example so it wouldn't produce any genetic problems. Morphs are generally selectively bred animals of the same species and again wouldn't suffer any problems. It's not a silly question at all, there are only silly answers.


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## Kris (Mar 6, 2006)

Ahhh ok, thanks.


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## Parko (Mar 6, 2006)

Sunrise, it is nice to know that some overseas breeders try to maintain purity in their bloodlines aswell as just mixing everything into one gigantic muddy carpet line, can you show us pics of some of your pure bloodlines in jungles and diamonds? In a way i can understand the need for foreign breeders to hybridise as they have a very limited gene base to deal with. The american Bredli scene a good example, supposedly they started with just 4 pairs of bredli or something like that,( though it's far more likely they continued to poach extra's from our bush) The hobby here is somewhat different though, NPWS has allowed the keeping of reptiles to be legalised because they see some conservational value in breeding our species in captivity, which gives our breeders a certain responsibility towards the snakes themselves. It is different to the more simple approach taken overseas where the goal is just to make the best looking snake and crap loads of money(though there is certainly nothing wrong with making money). 
How about your bredli? What are you planning to cross that with? You could cross it with a jungle and make a Bungle.


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## jnglgrl (Mar 6, 2006)

OMG this is like out of control :twisted: 
she is a realy beautiful python IMO whatever breed she is


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

I agree, the snake is in Holland, it isn't one of ours. It's a beautiful animal, well done and keep the photo's coming.


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## herptrader (Mar 6, 2006)

I think it is a wonderful looking snake!

As for the ethics debate with its "ugly tendancies", I suppose it has a place just not here. I will start an alternate thread under the subject line "Who left the lid off the can of worms?"

Here is the link: *http://www.aussiepythons.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-16483.html*


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## reptililian (Mar 6, 2006)

> "Who left the lid off the can of worms?"


Not me, I promise. I saw it off the other day and put it back on again. It must have been someone else. Those damn worms will take any opportunity to escape :roll:


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## krusty (Mar 6, 2006)

that is a great looking python....top stuff....


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## NoOne (Mar 6, 2006)

LMAO Ad, i'm suprised we haven't heard from our good friend Morelia-Hunter :lol: 

As for the snake, like TrueBlue said you can get jungles that are nicer than that which are pure, why watse your time crossing to get it.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

For the members whinging that there will be no pure breds left.
Go ahead and remain breeding pure strains if this is your only reason for arguing. That should keep the purebreds going in the hobby. But why should every single keeper in Australia share your thoughts & reasoning on the subject though?

I am sure there is enough room in this hobby to have both. Infact by the census of most members MANY share an interest in both pure & hybrid species. So I am sure there will still be plenty of keepers breeding locality specific animals.

Why do you fear that pures will become non existant to keepers? is it the fact that these so called mongrels are drawing more attention & have a bigger market? 

It is a pretty petty argument. Pures will remain and just like previous years MANY KEEPERS will be working with them to create the best of that certain species. 

I think it all comes down to honesty. If people advertise hybrids for what they are there shouldnt be a problem. True there will be many dishonest sellers, but that is no different to what is happening now. Many Palmerstons are sold as Tully's, Many Brisbanes sold as Proserpines etc.

The fact that you think pures will be either non existant or atleast hard to determin just shows the lack of trust you feel towards other keepers (many members of this site as this is where the argument is). So if you don't trust anyone in the hobby with hybrids whats to say you can trust them with so called purebreds? 

In reality we have all different types of keepers:

"The purist" who's goals are to line breed pure locality specific animals for certain traits etc

"The conservationalist" who breeds pure bred animals with the intention of sustaining wildlife stock IF anything was to go wrong with the species.

"The hobbyist" who breeds because they enjoy reptiles as a whole (pure or hybrid)"

"The pet owner" who just wants a pet reptile regardless of species or gender.

Then you have others with different intentions such as "money, ego etc"

Plenty of those listed will remain breeding purebreds.
Plenty of others will breed hybrids.
Plenty of others will breed both.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

That is definitely the best post on the subject so far. Surely all the breeders breeding pure animals will continue to do so, they wont suddenly lose their pure animals ? I hope to be one of those breeders very soon with various pure lines I have approaching breeding age. I will also look with great interest at what happens with the various morphs that will be coming through and I will consider breeding some myself, now if that in some way makes me untrustworthy then I guess so be it but my pure animals will still be pure.
Where do we draw the line with this cross breeding ? Is it OK to cross snakes that naturally overlap ? I am very open about my love of morphs,/hybrids, there is no point being hypocritical about it.


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## Parko (Mar 6, 2006)

Yeah J&C and Boa you're in the wrong thread fella's :lol:


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Well I guess everyone is then ?


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## Parko (Mar 6, 2006)

Nah just those that kept the yarn going here after the new thread started over there, you know the one you have already posted in Lol. But no big deal mate I'm just mucking round. Now this thread is just for people to say ''oh what a beautiful python that is''


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## TrueBlue (Mar 6, 2006)

"Oh what a crappy blood line that python has."


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## Parko (Mar 6, 2006)

Lol. ouch


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