# Snake Identification



## TommtCheeks (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi all, I was in the shed today and found this cute little guy.
Dose anyone know what he is? i live in a midwestern coastal town and a bush fire has just ripped through so we seeing more and more snakes.
Any infomation would be helpfull so i can find a nice spot to relocate him


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## phantomreptiles (Feb 9, 2012)

I never get to answer first!!! I am going to say Keelback - release anywhere, pref within a few km of a dam/lake etc

Otherwise a Tree Python, still non ven, which I am sure you have gathered since someone is holding the python in the pic, prob not wise unless you are 100% its non-ven



Did I win???? huh huh, yah for a being a night shift worker and the only one up lol


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## MrBredli (Feb 9, 2012)

I can't see any snake?


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## TommtCheeks (Feb 9, 2012)

Could it be a legless lizzard now that i think about it coz his so small

Your not the only one on nightshift mate haha

That is me with him on my hand, he is very quick and dosent bite.


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## phantomreptiles (Feb 9, 2012)

TommtCheeks said:


> Could it be a legless lizzard now that i think about it coz his so small
> 
> Your not the only one on nightshift mate haha
> 
> That is me with him on my hand, he is very quick and dosent bite.



No def not legless lizard, damm it people make me right, Keelback
What do you do for nightshift?


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## TommtCheeks (Feb 9, 2012)

Im a sparky working as an operator maintainer on a crude oil prosses plant, and you?

I was just looking at some info on the keelbacks and apparently they dont live in my area (Dongara westaus)


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## phantomreptiles (Feb 9, 2012)

Then tree snake, doesn't matter what it is, I can say its non ven, due to head shape
Ohhh you must be rich then,... I have heard what you guys earn, ahhh I am emplyed full time but I prefer to not say on this forum, happy to pm
I love night shift, others complain about it, i sleep no probs during the day, (no A/C) don't shut blinds, just am made for n/s, ohhh maybe I am part vampire???

employed, I can really spell, sort of..


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## Irbz_27 (Feb 9, 2012)

ten years of nightshift... only night off and here i am at 3.30am unable to sleep. gotta love the bodyclock!!!


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## zack13 (Feb 9, 2012)

phantomreptiles said:


> Then tree snake, doesn't matter what it is, I can say its non ven, due to head shape
> Ohhh you must be rich then,... I have heard what you guys earn, ahhh I am emplyed full time but I prefer to not say on this forum, happy to pm
> I love night shift, others complain about it, i sleep no probs during the day, (no A/C) don't shut blinds, just am made for n/s, ohhh maybe I am part vampire???
> 
> employed, I can really spell, sort of..



Please please please tell me you are joking.


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## TommtCheeks (Feb 9, 2012)

Yeah we do ok... Yeah night shift is the bomb this is my first night on. we do a week of 12hour days then a week of nights. then got 2 weeks off!! 
Its good when there arent many ppl around on site when on nightshift i like it. yeah i sleep like a log hey no probs. some mornings me and my shift partner will
go out for a fish after work on his boat its killer


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 9, 2012)

This is what I did post...

"It is a shame that the photo is out of focus. It looks like a Hooded Scaly-foot (Pygopus nigriceps). However, with that pic I cannot guarantee it.

phantomreptiles, a bad guess this time around - better luck in the future. Given your reluctance to disclose your employment and a stated predilection for sleeping days and working nights, I guess you will just have to be known as a lady of the night."

Following is what I should have posted...

From that photo, I certainly cannot make a positive ID or even a possible ID with any degree of surety. I could only make a guess. 

*Phantomreptiles*, your response to a snake ID is not appropriate.

*TommtCheeks*, you assume it is a snake (put in this thread) yet you free handle it – definitely something that I would not advocate and the wrong example to set for our younger, more impressionable and less experienced readers.

Blue


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## jase75 (Feb 9, 2012)

It's a Delma, a Legless Lizard. Not a Snake.


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## snakelady-viper (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree its a legless lizard


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## waruikazi (Feb 9, 2012)

Do we all see what happens when people think it's ok to guess now? This is ridiculous! Nearly everyone in this thread deserves an uppercut.


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## solar 17 (Feb 9, 2012)

phantomreptiles said:


> Then tree snake, doesn't matter what it is, I can say its non ven, due to head shape
> Ohhh you must be rich then,... I have heard what you guys earn, ahhh I am emplyed full time but I prefer to not say on this forum, happy to pm
> I love night shift, others complain about it, i sleep no probs during the day, (no A/C) don't shut blinds, just am made for n/s, ohhh maybe I am part vampire???
> 
> employed, I can really spell, sort of..


l know what you do LOL.
cheers Baden


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## CHEWY (Feb 9, 2012)

Could you not have attached a better photo. The photo is not of poor quality, it's just that the subject is out of focus. I can clearly see your shaving cream on the sink in the back ground.
It looks like a species of Delma to me, at least some type of legless lizards.
While to me, it is clearly not a snake. Your thread name indicates that you thought it was.
Do you think it wise to be holding this "cute little guy" without knowing its true identity? 
Is it the shadow from your blinds on your windows giving it the pattern or does it have variable colours along its body?
Don't want hammer you about it, just to educate in case the next cute little guy is a juvie brown or tiger...or did I just get trolled?


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## Globe (Feb 9, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> Do we all see what happens when people think it's ok to guess now? This is ridiculous! Nearly everyone in this thread deserves an uppercut.



+1


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with *Chewy*. Here is what I would have included in last night's post had I not started to fall asleep at the keyboard...

I would recommend NOT free handling any serpent-like reptiles, no matter how small, until you are sure of their identity. Some elapids can still be dangerously venomous at a small size. 

If you could see ear openings, leg flaps or a wide, fleshy tongue on the specimen in the photo, then it's a legless lizard. Alternatively, the vent will be positioned less than halfway along the body and the ventral scales will be an equivalent size to the dorsal scales and not run the width of the belly.

Blue

*Globe*, Unfortunately your humour is misplaced. We have been through this a number of times and there is a tacit agreement as welll as a request from the moderators (see sticky thread on this subject) to leave the sarcasm out of IDs. threads. The seroius of the message *Waruikazi* is putting across should not be diminished in any way.


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## Australis (Feb 9, 2012)

phantomreptiles said:


> Did I win????



Yup! D:<


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## TommtCheeks (Feb 9, 2012)

> *TommtCheeks*, you assume it is a snake (put in this thread) yet you free handle it – definitely something that I would not advocate and the wrong example to set for our younger, more impressionable and less experienced readers.



Well noted Blue i will do so in the future, thankyou Blue and Chewy For the advise. When i first found the little guy i checked his underbelly and found no leg flaps and very small belly scales. Sorry i dont have any better photos for you it would be nice to have a positive id. I resesed him today down on a little rocky outcrop near the river so he can find some frogs or lizards to feed on, he will have a much better chance at life now considering there was nothing but fire ridden bush for km's were he was found. Our local snake catcher and good friend of mine suggested it was a from the python family but he could not determine and exact id.
View attachment 237724


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## JasonL (Feb 9, 2012)

Gold!....


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## SteveNT (Feb 9, 2012)

looks like an ll. Never seen one that colouful though. Delma ish...


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## saratoga (Feb 9, 2012)

TommtCheeks said:


> Our local snake catcher and good friend of mine suggested it was a from the python family



wonder what other gems of information does he gives out on snake calls!


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 10, 2012)

TommtCheeks said:


> ...When i first found the little guy i checked his underbelly and found no leg flaps and very small belly scales. ..... Our local snake catcher and good friend of mine suggested it was a from the python family but he could not determine and exact id.



Small belly scales means it was not a snake. Therefore it was a pygopod (legless lizard). You can let your mate know that it was not a python. It had the head markings and shape and body form of the Delma genus but there appeared to be bands along the entire body. The only black-headed pygopod in Dongara that I know can sometimes appear banded is the Hooded Scaly-foot (Pygopus nigriceps), which is why I suggested it as a possibility. Having said that, they are normally a lot thicker bodied that the individual in the photo. 

Blue


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## Snake_Whisperer (Feb 10, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I agree with *Chewy*. Here is what I would have included in last night's post had I not started to fall asleep at the keyboard...
> 
> _*I would recommend NOT free handling any serpent-like reptiles, no matter how small, until you are sure of their identity. Some elapids can still be dangerously venomous at a small size.
> 
> ...



Even with the blurry photo, generic ID of pygopod is obvious. I won't harp on about it but if you don't know, don't touch. That is how tragedies happen. A relocator thought it may be a python? :| Scary stuff. All up though, this thread has brought sunshine to my life!


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 10, 2012)

*TommtCheeks*,
I am presuming the local snake catcher is practicing catch and release only, where identifying the species is not required. Even so, it would not hurt for him to attempt to learn to identify at least the venonmous snakes in his area. The commonest one is the Western Brown Snake, the juveniles of which look very like a number of local legless lizards - very similar to what you were handling. Should he ever get bitten, visual identification in conjunction with the venom detection kit used at hospitals, is very useful.

An excellent book for that area is "Reptiles and Frogs in the Bush: Southwestern Australia" by Brian Bush et al. Published by University of Western Australia Press. At $40 an excellent investment.

Blue


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## r3ptilian (Feb 10, 2012)

It could possibly be a banded form of Delma Grayii (Side Barred Delma). They are found in that area.


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## TommtCheeks (Feb 10, 2012)

You would be presuming right Blue, considering he usually gets calls for much larger and deadly snakes i can see how he got it wrong he did confirm that it wasnt venomus before i handeled it. He also told me many horror stories of people who get the shovel out before they give him a call. The more people educated on our wildlife the better i think. I let him know about the book and he told me he actually got his licence from brian bush or he held the class. I will deffinetly be getting a copy of his book now for myself


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## fauce (Feb 11, 2012)

How can someone who got the ID so incredibly wrong safely know that it was non-venomous. Although he is probably a good guy etc, he needs to familiarise himself with things before he picks up any more snakes/lizards he is not 110% sure on the ID of.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Having had time to think about it and based on the extra info provided, I suspect that he said it belongs to the pygopod family, which probably sounded like he said python family.

Blue


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## Firepac (Feb 11, 2012)

This thread is truly scary ...


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## -Peter (Feb 11, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Having had time to think about it and based on the extra info provided, I suspect that he said it belongs to the pygopod family, which probably sounded like he said python family.
> 
> Blue



This sounds more likely.


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## Echiopsis (Feb 11, 2012)

r3ptilian said:


> It could possibly be a banded form of Delma Grayii (Side Barred Delma). They are found in that area.



Congratulations for being the only person in this thread with decent eye sight. Its Delma grayii. The end.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Echiopsis, I take exception at you telling me I don't have decent eyesight. You wouldn't know, so why say it? 

Ohhh. It's not really eyesight you are refering to at all, is it? It's how fantastic you are at identifying reptiles that you are really on about. What a shame you feel the need to stand on others to be seen and heard. Try standing on your own two feet and you might get the respect of more than just your mates.

Please put your skills to use and explain why the specimen pictured has dark banding on the top of the head, a feature reported by those that should know, as something they should not have. I would appreciate it.

Blue


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## AUSHERP (Feb 13, 2012)

Looks like a hooded scaly to me. I too think that you mistook pygopod for python, any snake catcher, even catch and release can tell you at first glance that it isn't a python. As for not being venomous, I wouldn't take anyones word unless they could at least provide an ID on the animal. When I first looked at the pic I actually thought it was a juvie brown and was shocked to see it being freehandled like that.


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## Echiopsis (Feb 14, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Echiopsis, I take exception at you telling me I don't have decent eyesight. You wouldn't know, so why say it?
> 
> Ohhh. It's not really eyesight you are refering to at all, is it? It's how fantastic you are at identifying reptiles that you are really on about. What a shame you feel the need to stand on others to be seen and heard. Try standing on your own two feet and you might get the respect of more than just your mates.
> 
> ...



Have a read of the third edition of Wilson and Swan Blue, page 130. The image on page 131 is worth a look too. It is not a Pygopus, the head shape is wrong, the proportions are wrong, it clearly has a yellow venter and its far more slender than any of the Pygopus species. Its amazing what you learn in the field, you cant learn everything from books Blue. If you got out once in a while rather than sitting on APS and reading books you would be able to make a more informed call.

I dont need or want your respect, i have that from those that matter in the real world.


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## moosenoose (Feb 14, 2012)

Crappest photo thus far on Aussie pythons.... well done! :lol:


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 14, 2012)

*Echiopsis*,
I think you missed the point. You were arrogant and rude in the manner in which you put forward your ID. I did not question your abilities to make it, only the manner in which you did so. Totally unnecessary. 


Echiopsis said:


> Have a read of the third edition of Wilson and Swan Blue, page 130. The image on page 131 is worth a look too. It is not a Pygopus, the head shape is wrong, the proportions are wrong, it clearly has a yellow venter and its far more slender than any of the Pygopus species. Its amazing what you learn in the field, you cant learn everything from books Blue. If you got out once in a while rather than sitting on APS and reading books you would be able to make a more informed call.
> 
> I dont need or want your respect, i have that from those that matter in the real world.


 
The point I would make is that having the respect of those that matter in the real world does NOT entitle you to be rude to others.

You refer me to a book to confirm your ID and then tell me I need to get out in the field more to learn how to ID. 

Whatever herps I have come across in the field, I have not seen every reptile and amphibians species in all of their varied forms or the aberrantly marked individuals one gets from time to time. 

You effectively know absolutely nothing about me and yet you reckon you can tell how much field experience I have had. That is the arrogance to which I referred earlier.

I was chasing reptiles with the likes of Neville Burns, Peter Rankin, Peter Harlow and others before you were born. I used help out with George and John Cann's snake show at La Perouse and often went back to the house for a cup of tea after the show. I have been frogging with John Barker and Gordon Grigg, before they published their book. I shall stop there... Suffice to say I think you presume too much.

You talk about using your eyes. How come you missed this post...


Bluetongue1 said:


> Small belly scales means it was not a snake. Therefore it was a pygopod (legless lizard). You can let your mate know that it was not a python. It had the head markings and shape and body form of the Delma genus but there appeared to be bands along the entire body. The only black-headed pygopod in Dongara that I know can sometimes appear banded is the Hooded Scaly-foot (Pygopus nigriceps), which is why I suggested it as a possibility. Having said that, they are normally a lot thicker bodied that the individual in the photo.
> 
> Blue


Yes, I did see the small patch of yellow below the lower laterals at the front end. The photo was hazy enough for me to not know for sure whether it actually was yellow or whether it was an artefact of refraction. While I have seen _Delma grayii_ specimens, I have never seen one that had more than a dozen or so white bars coming up at the front end and never a dark head. I checked in several resources, including our local book by Brian Bush et al, but none mentioned complete body banding. The specimen was clearly emaciated and I felt that might explain the lack of Pygopus body shape – not that I was happy with the ID and this I did point out in another post. It was the nearest I could get to fitting the bill given the experience and information available to me.

Bottom line – you do not need to put others down simply because you know more than them.

Blue


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## Echiopsis (Feb 14, 2012)

> I think you missed the point. You were arrogant and rude in the manner in which you put forward your ID. I did not question your abilities to make it, only the manner in which you did so. Totally unnecessary.



Oh i think i get the point, its better to let you ramble, regurgitating information from your outdated texts than to make a decisive ID based on experience.



> The point I would make is that having the respect of those that matter in the real world does NOT entitle you to be rude to others.



It was a general comment alluding to the inadequacy of the ID's in the thread, i attacked no one personally. Regardless of this you chose to take it personally and attack me in turn, feeling inadequate?



> You refer me to a book to confirm your ID and then tell me I need to get out in the field more to learn how to ID.



Books obviously play a part, try not to play dumb eh? Its not clever or amusing. Books used in conjunction with field work will give you a broader knowledge and allow you to make calls based on characters other than colour/ pattern.



> Whatever herps I have come across in the field, I have not seen every reptile and amphibians species in all of their varied forms or the aberrantly marked individuals one gets from time to time.



Neither have I. Ive never seen such a heavily marked grayii but i can confidently say that is what the animal in question is regardless of that fact. 



> You effectively know absolutely nothing about me and yet you reckon you can tell how much field experience I have had. That is the arrogance to which I referred earlier.
> 
> I was chasing reptiles with the likes of Neville Burns, Peter Rankin, Peter Harlow and others before you were born. I used help out with George and John Cann's snake show at La Perouse and often went back to the house for a cup of tea after the show. I have been frogging with John Barker and Gordon Grigg, before they published their book. I shall stop there... Suffice to say I think you presume too much.



Ive read enough of your long winded posts to notice you are speaking from what youve read, not what youve experienced in many (most?) cases. I also dont feel the need to list off all the people ive herped with to make myself feel better, im comfortable in my knowledge, a ******* contest gains me nothing.



> You talk about using your eyes. How come you missed this post...
> Yes, I did see the small patch of yellow below the lower laterals at the front end. The photo was hazy enough for me to not know for sure whether it actually was yellow or whether it was an artefact of refraction. While I have seen _Delma grayii_ specimens, I have never seen one that had more than a dozen or so white bars coming up at the front end and never a dark head. I checked in several resources, including our local book by Brian Bush et al, but none mentioned complete body banding. The specimen was clearly emaciated and I felt that might explain the lack of Pygopus body shape – not that I was happy with the ID and this I did point out in another post. It was the nearest I could get to fitting the bill given the experience and information available to me.



Its the nearest you could get to ID, great, youve realised your limitations. I knew what the animal was and stated this. My comment about eye sight was written more in disgust and contempt for those making ridiculous calls as to the ID of the animal. Even then it was a general comment, not targeted at anyone in particular. Youve then taken the insult as a personal attack and attacked me in turn, playing your self appointed role as the morality police for APS. 



> Bottom line – you do not need to put others down simply because you know more than them.
> 
> Blue



No, i dont need to, but sometimes its necessary to disuade people from making stupid comments in future. By the looks you could do with a few extra comments aimed your way.


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## Webless (Feb 14, 2012)

OMG .. You guys are all such Little Whiners.. This is hillarious.. and you call yourselves adults.. Bahahaha


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## Poggle (Feb 14, 2012)

speechlesss..... with out reading other posts i was going to sale delma... not specific species but. 

Agree with gordo alot of people make it worse for them selves on this site by talking crap.... shame shame shame....

I dont really think echiopsis was having a crack at any one, just simply saying what it was - then came the poo slinging - then comes Poggle - along with poggle comes his thread killing curses - problem solved


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## timfina (Feb 14, 2012)

man is this a teenage site or an adult site ?? Why all the agro . No-one knows everything about a subject so just let others speak and enjoy the threads for what they are !!!


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 14, 2012)

I fail too see the purpose of the last few comments. They contribute nothing positive but do reflect upon the author.

"Congratulations for being the only person in this thread with decent eye sight. Its Delma grayii. The end."

Whether intended or not, the tone of this statement is arrogant and in the context of the thread, it is also dismissive of the input of others. Unfortunately, the fact that others threw in "likes" for such a comment I found doubling disappointing. These were my issues. Nothing else.

It is unfortunate that some incorrect statements were then made about me. I have addressed them plus some inconsistencies. 

*Echiopsis*,
I apologise for the satirical manner in which I addressed the comment. It was emotionally reactive of me to do so and not appropriate. I do recognise that my manner was inflammatory and I am sorry and regret having done so. I was clearly reacting not only to what I considered a rude comment but the fact that others show support for such comments. 

Blue


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## Tassie97 (Feb 14, 2012)

did it look like that?!


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## moosenoose (Feb 14, 2012)

Tassie97 said:


> View attachment 238465
> 
> did it look like that?!



Thats a tiger snake! Look out! :lol:


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 14, 2012)

Tassie97 said:


> did it look like that?!


 
Do you have a full body shot? That would be helpful.


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## Tassie97 (Feb 14, 2012)

oh i just got it off google haha
just google Delma grayii and that pic looks alot like the out of focus pic in the OP


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 14, 2012)

No worries. I've got a herping trip to Sandy Cape coming up in a month's time. That about 100 km south of Dongara. I might just have to take an extra day or two and go for a squizzy around Dongara.

Blue


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## thomasssss (Feb 14, 2012)

nathancl said:


> waffle waffle waffle
> 
> tis why I cringe when I see your username in a thread.


we really need a dislike button here at aps because your post is pointless and i would like to dislike it atleast blues posts always have purpose


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 14, 2012)

nathancl,
A simple suggestion. If you don't like my posts, then do not read them! Why put yourself through the pain? How easy is that? Problem solved.

Blue


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm going to adress this to everyone on this thread to avoid sounding like i'm singling out anyone in particular. 

It may be time to take some of your (collective) own advice. If you don't like someone's post don't read them or respond.


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## Poggle (Feb 14, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> I'm going to adress this to everyone on this thread to avoid sounding like i'm singling out anyone in particular.
> 
> It may be time to take some of your (collective) own advice. If you don't like someone's post don't read them or respond.



Good advice indeed.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 15, 2012)

There is a significant difference between saying you dislike a post and disliking all that is posted by a given user. The advice given applies to the later.

I would not advise others to tolerate that which they find unacceptable. 

I have openly admitted I was wrong in being reactive and I should have kept my response to the facts only and not based it on that which I inferred as well. I apologised and am genuine in that apology. 

Had the original post contained some of the information later provided, such what the post was actually directed at and that the pattern on the animal was atypical but not that far outside the know range, then the post would not have been seen as dismissive. 

So perhaps that advice should be, if you respond, please do so appropriately. Then these sorts of problems and issues can be avoided.


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## Colin (Feb 15, 2012)

I think it might be best to close this thread.

the end..


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