# Juvy Texty? - Darwin



## mikey_mike (Aug 22, 2014)

Found this fella on the bikepath on the way home this afternoon - just outside of the CBD. I guess the snakes have started to move again even though it still seems bloody cold to me. Perhaps 20cm long.
Anyway 2 questions: 1) Is it a textilis?
2) Anyone got any tips on how I can id snakes without ending up in ED for 12 hours of snake bite obs? Having worked there for years I would find this very embarrassing. Clearly from these 2 q's I'm a bit of a novice at snake ids.

Thanks & sorry about the iphone photos.


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## clopo (Aug 22, 2014)

Delma sp. Practice practice practice is the way to id. Read books and look/take photos of as many critters as possible.


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## mikey_mike (Aug 22, 2014)

Thanks so much, now I'm a bit embarrassed that I didn't get closer. If I zoom in on the original photos I think I can just make out ears.
Cheers


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## phatty (Aug 23, 2014)

hi [MENTION=31061]mikey_mike[/MENTION] i would be looking at getting a book such as *Reptiles* and *Amphibians* of Australia by *Harold Cogger 
the head shape of this guy is a dead give away as well *


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## mikey_mike (Aug 23, 2014)

Thanks Chris, have a copy, but it's no substitute for experience.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 25, 2014)

It is_ Delma tincta_ the Excitable Delma, to be precise.

The first thing you need to do is to complile a list of all the reptiles that occur locally. (If you do that then would know that_ P. textilis_ does not occur in Darwin but _P. nuchalis_ does.) Then you need to collect several photos of each and paste them under the species. Information on maximum length should be added plus distinctive features mentioned in field guides online resources such as AROD. In doing this you will start to pickup what you need to look for particular species. Other than the differences written down in texts, by examining photos of local species and their close relatives you get to recognise any distinctive features of their appearance. With Delmas for example, they all have a distinctive head shape that is difference from any snake group. While you will not find this written down in any text, it is very obvious when looking at photos. What you note in comparing the bands on the nape of a juvie _P. nuchalis_ with a Delma is the one versus two distinction. A different example of distinctions you can pick is that Gehyra geckos have expanded distal toe pads with the claw coming out from the top of the pad but the first digit of each foot lacks a claw. Whereas the similar Hemidactylus (Asian House Gecko) has a claw on each digit. Another difference that can be seen by examining photos is that Hemidactylus have an ovate shape to the toe pad whereas Gehyra have circular shaped discs.

Sorry that I have set you a bit of a task but hopefully it will help. Should you have any questions as to how to distiguish this from that, i am more than happy to help if I can.

Blue


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## phatty (Aug 25, 2014)

http://museumvictoria.com.au/apps/ntfieldguide this is a handy app just released by Darwin Museum


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## mikey_mike (Aug 26, 2014)

Wow, super helpful replies. Thanks.


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## eipper (Aug 26, 2014)

How do you exclude Delma borea?


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## GBWhite (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree Scott. Both Delmas mentioned occur sympatrically in the Greater Darwin area, occupy similar habitats and are almost identical. So without actually picking the critter up and examining the mid body and supranasal scales it's too hard to confirm identification just from the pics.

None the less it is one or the other.

Incidentally I've had a couple of trips to Darwin over the past couple of months for work and in my spare time got out and about and did a bit of herping. As well as a few other herps I found a couple of D. tincta under debris around the Palmerston area where I was staying. Got a gander at a lot of salties down at Daly River as well.

Not as good herping there as it used to be...lol.

George.


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## eipper (Aug 27, 2014)

That's my point George - you cannot. It's another case of a guess not based on facts but masquerading as fact. 

As Clopo correctly suggested it's a Delma- to provide a species with any certainty is not possible those particular images.

cheers


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 28, 2014)

eipper said:


> That's my point George - you cannot. It's another case of a guess not based on facts but masquerading as fact.
> 
> As Clopo correctly suggested it's a Delma- to provide a species with any certainty is not possible those particular images.
> 
> cheers



I think a lot of these "firm" IDs come straight off the net or out of a book Scott - a couple of years ago a member here swore black & blue that another obvious Delma was in fact a juvie Western Brown. I was able to get a photo from Brian Bush who worked in the area (near Esperance) for many years which cleared the matter up finally - the tail length is always a dead giveaway.

Jamie


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## eipper (Aug 28, 2014)

I agree- there is no harm in being only able to id to a genus level- its better to be correct than guess. There are plenty of self professed experts that have little understanding of actual animals and base their claims via "in part" referencing a book, wikipedia or the internet. 

Getting out into the scrub gives one a whole new understanding for the intrinsic nature of identification via dichotomous keys. With new species being constantly discovered (there is always a heap of taxonomic work happening behind the scenes) and unusual specimens- the reality of individuals not neatly fitting into the arbitrary area defined by keys is a fairly common occurrence. The real skill is to be able to work out when the key -or the specimen does not match but still get the correct answer.

Cheers,
Scott


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 18, 2014)

Much ado about nothing! I was not expecting this returning from a lengthyillness-related absence. Someone should have let me know we were playing forsheep stations.

What I perceive is a lot of surmise being utilised to pass negativejudgements and infer negative innuendos. All over what may well have been a simple oversight. What is alsoevident is that the focus of the comments ignores the mainstay of the responsecompletely.

It seems that you feel the need to seize upon any apparentmistake to extract your pound of flesh. And this without ensuring myopportunity to redress the issue. Neither have you provided a balancedperspective in terms of the general nature of my responses on the forum.

All up, I can only but guess at what motivates the witchhunt.

My purpose for being on APS is basically twofold ? to learnand to help others. I shall continue todo so despite the unwarranted negativity and unjust criticisms of some.

Blue


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 12, 2014)

The following details were sent to the OP on the 12Sep. I did state that my lack of reasons for the ID were atypical of me and no doubt due to the fact that the ID was a last minute spur of the moment act as I was posting my major response to his requests...

With respect to my IDing the Delma, there no question that I should have mentioned that there are two species found in Darwin (_D. borea_ and_ D. tincta_) and that they are extremely similar in appearance. Following are the differences mostly used to differentiate between them...

*Delma tincta*
A. 3rdupper labial below eye;
B. 2 supranasals (occasionally 4);
C. midbody scales in 14 rows (occasionally 12 to 16);
D. head and nape markings fading with age.

*Delma borea*
A. 4th upper labial below eye;
B. 4 supranasals;
C. Midbody scales in 16 rows (occasionally 14 to 18
D. head and nape markings normally remain sharp in far northern NT but occasionally obscure in adults.

From my observations D. tincta has a slightly shorter snout, a relatively larger eye and a less dorsoventrally depressed (thicker) head compared to D. borea. 

From David Knowles I am told that the pale bands on the head and nape widen out like the sides of a triangle in _D. tincta_, while in _D. borea_ they remain relatively parallel sided. I am more than comfortable to trust Dave?s field knowledge in that area. _D. tincta_ is also the most commonly encountered one in Darwin. I am uncertain whether this is because of numbers or its more diurnal habits compared to _D. borea_, but either way that sort of attribute does not cut it with the more hard-nose identifiers.

Bottom line, following an examination of your photos under magnification I am comfortable in making the species call as *tincta* based on the information in the last two paragraphs. Hopefully you can put this information to future use and also verify its voracity while you are at it - which is never a bad option, and rather than being offended I would actually recommend that you do so.

Blue


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## eipper (Oct 12, 2014)

You cannot count the midbody scales, you cannot count the supranasals or can you conclusively work out as to which supralabial is beneath the eye on each side- you should check both. I will stick with my statement that you cannot conclusively Id from those pics. By the way all Delmas can be diurnal.


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