# Native Green Tree Pythons



## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

The question of "proof of origin" of GTPs that pop up on the Australian market from time to time has been debated on this forum before.

What really interests me is:

If *YOU* were considering to purchase *"Native Green Tree Python(s)" *- what kind of proof / evidence / information / explanation / reference, would satisfy you that the GTPs are as advertised?
What additional information / support would you expect from the seller / breeder?

I thrust these are logical, intelligent question, so please respond accordingly (no private messages here).:?


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## waruikazi (Jun 6, 2008)

Just gotta trust the person who you are buying off, there's no one else that can give you that information.


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## CodeRed (Jun 6, 2008)

At the end of the day I am not sure what sort of evidence could ever be produced other than copies of wild collection permits. that implies that the seller is the orginal collector and obtained them legally. 

I wish I knew an answer other than blind faith in the seller if he/she is not one of the known holders of aussie greens.


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## Retic (Jun 6, 2008)

It is purely a matter of trust and if you buy from a reputable breeder the fact that they aren't likely to try to pass off an exotic GTP as an Australian one.
The line of white dots down the back is only visible in more mature animals so not much good when buying hatchlings.


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## BIG RYANO (Jun 6, 2008)

I guess most people would go off the white line of scales down the back for starters. If the snake doesnt have that feature, you can rule it out straight away cant you? Dont ALL genuine aussie GTP's have the white line?


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## david63 (Jun 6, 2008)

I consider that the breeders reputation would have a lot to do for it with me, as well as their explanation as to how they came to obtain the 'native ' GTPs - again this is just a matter of trust.

Some breeders offer DNA profiled animals, but the way I understand it this is only proof of the mother's heritage not the father's?


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## CodeRed (Jun 6, 2008)

boa said:


> It is purely a matter of trust and if you buy from a reputable breeder the fact that they aren't likely to try to pass off an Australian GTP as an 'exotic' one.


 
I thought the problem was the other way around i.e exotics being passed off as aussies


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Big Ryano, the white line is not always uninterrupted. More than often it's a series of irregular white dots along the spine.


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## Retic (Jun 6, 2008)

Yes I obviously meant the other way around, thanks. 



CodeRed said:


> I thought the problem was the other way around i.e exotics being passed off as aussies


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## BIG RYANO (Jun 6, 2008)

craftsman said:


> Big Ryano, the white line is not always uninterrupted. More than often it's a series of irregular white dots along the spine.


 
Yeah. but no other "type" of GTP really comes close to that look do they? Theirs always some form of white line, whether its interupted or not, down the back of the aussie ones. This makes it pretty straight forward to id an aussie one doesnt it? I cant see how people could sell an exotic GTP as an aussie one. they look fairly different.


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

The Merauke type can be mistaken for an Ausie GTP - it has very similar markings.


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Also, what if you're buying a yellow juvenile?


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## Nephrurus (Jun 6, 2008)

A massive skin worm infestation might be a decent guide to go by. 

-H


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Nephrurus, nobody is talking about wild caught animals here. This is about captive bred snakes.


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## BIG RYANO (Jun 6, 2008)

craftsman said:


> The Merauke type can be mistaken for an Ausie GTP - it has very similar markings.


 
Arent the meraukes expensive overseas as well? As someone else said, no one would smuggle in an expensive race, they'd choose the cheapest. I reckon if a GTP in Australia has a white line down its back, unbroken or not, it would probably be a safe bet its an aussie one. Dont some people believe the merauke and aussie GTP to be exactly the same thing?


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

No, they are not the same, just similar both morphologically and genetically.

PS - we are getting off the subject!


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## cement (Jun 6, 2008)

Reputable breeder who will give you certificate of lineage.
LOL yeah


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## Hickson (Jun 6, 2008)

The only way to be 100% sure is to get it's DNA sequenced.

Australian GTPs are genetically distinct from all other populations, although they are related to the Southern PNG forms.



Hix


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## ravensgait (Jun 6, 2008)

You just have to trust the person you're buying from. If you don't trust them then don't buy. 

They are all just localities and Meraukes , a few Aru's and even an odd ball from other localities can have white dorsal scales ..
This guy has more stripe than you'll see on any Native Aussie chondro, this is a Bade Merauke 





Here's a yearling , not that much stripe.




another with just a decent stripe




The problem with these guys is that for some reason when bred in captivity they seem to loose the majority of their white stripes. There have been Meraukes(as I understand the same holds true for your native animals) with solid white stripes that when bred together produced animals like in the second photo and some with less stripe.. That kids parents had almost full stripes.. 

So you're going to have to trust the person you are buying from.. Randy


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## ravensgait (Jun 6, 2008)

Hix, as far as I know you can't tell them apart, they are very much the same as the Merauke locality but over all seem to have less of a dorsal stripe.. .. Randy


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## CodeRed (Jun 6, 2008)

URS line is native, no?  .. (pop goes another can of worms)

They typically dont have a solid white line but have sp****ly spaced white dots.


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## Hickson (Jun 6, 2008)

Ravensgait,

Donellan et al published a paper a couple of years ago establishing the relationships between the different clades. The Aussie ones had autopomorphies.



Hix


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Guys, if you want debate colour morphs and genetics, would you mind to start a new tread? I am really keen to hear answers to my original questions. No offense!

By the way, Hix, to determine locality origin, you have to look at mitochonrial DNA, which tells you nothing about the paternal side. However, if you do neighboring analysis using the western populations as an outgroup, true native males will fall into the Iron Range clade. I am happy to discuss this further in another tread.


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## david63 (Jun 6, 2008)

I'd love to hear some regards the DNA profiling Craftsman.


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

then start a few tread and ask specific question. I am sure other will join in.


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Randy, your last shot is unmistakably from Iron Ramge - the fence line of King Park with the QPWS barracks in the background. Also, unmistakably Ausie python! The Bade (do you mean Badu?) can't be mistaken for Aus. native for it's yellow snout.


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## Splitmore (Jun 6, 2008)

I guess the question should be asked of the breeder is what kind of proof can you actually provide? Surely just telling someone the origin of the babies isn't going to be sufficient. What kind of proof is a breeder of 'Aussie' greens actually able to provide a prospective buyer?


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

This is my point and my question Splimore - what would YOU be asking the breeder, etc., etc..
I am looking for answers and opinions not another questions.


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## NCHERPS (Jun 6, 2008)

Craftsman,

IMO, In an ideal world I would require an evidence trail as to where the original native aussies were acquired from and their subsequent offspring. A sort of pedigree.
However, I know that it is unlikely to happen, due mainly to the fact that the original snakes would have been almost certainly illegally wild caught(Not saying yours were, but maybe the parents of yours or grandparents).

In reality I think that the best you can ask for is what breeders do in other countries, and that is give a letter to authenticate the animals, maybe even a microchip as is insisted upon when selling Cites Appendix 1 animals in the UK(obviously the chip can't be inserted until the animals are a certain size).
Again, there is a certain amount of trust involved, however more and more people are recognising a true Aussie from appearance, or at least have a good idea of what one should look like, so that with photo's of parents etc should be enough IMO.

Cheers Neil


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## CodeRed (Jun 6, 2008)

Neil, going by "look" helps only when buying adults, but when buying hatchlings the breeder could show you any photos and they may not necessarily be the parents. We all know _someone_ who does that with another species 

Once again it boils down to trust.


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Thanks for your sensible opinion Neil. 
It seems to be the buyer's first question - how do I know, what proof is there? In my opinion, they are asking for the impossible. Even DNA and PIT tags can be swindled, so at the end of the day - it's a question of trust, integrity and reputation on the breeder's part.


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## Splitmore (Jun 6, 2008)

craftsman said:


> This is my point and my question Splimore - what would YOU be asking the breeder, etc., etc..
> I am looking for answers and opinions not another questions.



I would basically asking for hard core proof of the animals pedigree and, as I said above asking the breeder how they can provide me with the proof of the animals origin. You can swear on your mothers grave till your blue in the face but as a buyer the first thing I would ask is how you can provide me with the evidence


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Splitmore, you are going around in circles. Read Neil's and my messages and hopefuly, you will also conclude that you would be asking for the impossible. How can anyone provide with a hard core proof, short of admitting that he/she taken the animals from the wild? And is he/she was stupid enough to say that, would you believe him/her or would you demand a hard core proof of him/her poaching? Perhaps you could conclude the transaction with the breeder in a jail.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jun 6, 2008)

Codered: What do you mean with this line. . We all know _someone_ who does that with another species 
?????


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## amazonian (Jun 6, 2008)

I took this quote from another thread. Hope you don't mind.



craftsman said:


> By the way, BIGGUY, I managed to obtain copies of 5 permits issued by the QPWS to different individuals (I was one of them) in the mid 80s to collect GTPs at Iron Range, so it wasn't just progeny of Gow's animals that ended up on the market.


 
If this is infact true then why would yourself or the other 4 collectors face a jail term for prooving where the animals originated from? Surely there would be documentation to prove their animals are 100% Aussies?, and this documentation should be enough IMO to fulfill any prospective buyers genuine concerns.


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## MrBredli (Jun 6, 2008)

It wouldn't prove that the animals for sale are direct descendants from the animals taken on permit, but if i viewed the permit and it was authentic and the person selling the GTP's proved to me that they are the same person listed on the permit, then that would be enough for me. Obviously there still needs to be that bit of trust there. I should add, i would also want to a see paper trail from the original animals taken on permit which leads to the offspring that are for sale.


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## CodeRed (Jun 6, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> Codered: What do you mean with this line. . We all know _someone_ who does that with another species
> ?????


 
There was a breeder that was swapping pics of adults. He doesnt sell much anymore as most people seem to have worked out he was dodgy. Nothing to do with GTP's.


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## amazonian (Jun 6, 2008)

I think the major reason for people wanting the proove in teh first place is due to paying more for a pure Aussie animal. If Aussie GTP's were advertised at $5000 alongside the multitude of exotics I think most if not all buyers would be content with just seeing photo's of the parents & taking the breeders word for it. But when you are paying $3000 extra per animal you want some sort of garuntee for your purchase JMO


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jun 6, 2008)

What species are we talking about, Im intrigued?????


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

Hi Amazonia,
since you addressed me by my name would you have the decency and let us know your name?

Who said that those snakes taken in the eighties left any captive bred progeny surviving today? I was merely stating that such activities took place and I can prove it. Don't jump conclusions buddy!


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## MrBredli (Jun 6, 2008)

Edit: i don't think i even need to say it.


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## amazonian (Jun 6, 2008)

Sorry, I was under the impression they did have progeny from the statement " so it wasn't just progeny of Gow's animals that ended up on the market." taken from your quoted message.

Well if they did have progeny then it should be easy enough to prove so if the breeders are infact selling those animals shouldn't it?

And if they didn't have any progeny, then keepers advertising Aussies must be either A: lying or B: Poachers.

You have asked what we want as proof and I feel I have answered this question for you. So now let me ask you a question. As an advertiser of true pure Aussie GTP's, what proof or garuntee can you give that your animals are 100% legal and of Iron Range?


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

are you a buyer? If so, I'll give all the proof that is possible to give. If you are just snooping around and trying to expose people's identity on this forum - bugger off!

I think it's time for a mediator to step in and explain Amazonian some rules.


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## amazonian (Jun 6, 2008)

I am sorry you seem to think I am somehow starting trouble.
I thought you genuinely wanted an answer to your question of "what proof do WE want"

No need for a mediator. I will step down voluntarily and leave the others to answer your questions in a manner that YOU see fit. Obviously my answer has somehow offended you, although I can't possibly see how. All the best with it.


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

You answer didn't offend me - the fact that you deliberately (I assume) exposed my name is a sign of poor manners or a nasty streak in you. You can still repair the damage by telling us all your name.

This thread (I hope) is a meaningful discussion platform from which both breeders / sellers and potential buyers can benefit. My aim is to collate and assess all the contributions and arrive to some conclusion as to what would be the standard approach to selling and buying native GTPs acceptable to most.
Lets hope we can recover from this minor stumble and keep on going. Your level-headed attitude would be appreciated, Amazonian.


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## amazonian (Jun 6, 2008)

Well I appologise.
I thought your name was public knowledge and known by the majority involved in the hobby. I only said it as I was speaking to & quoting you directly at that point and I thought it more personal on 1st name basis. I never meant it as an attack and if I thought you were trying to remain annonymous I would have gladly obliged by keeping it a secret. There was no malice or intent in my post I assure you.

My name is Sonny.
Hi all


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## solar 17 (Jun 6, 2008)

*aussie gtp's*

l lived in Cooktown for a while and fished up as far as Captain Billy's Landing [the other side of Iron Range NP] and after seeing aussie gtp's in the wild [and being searched by QP&WS with police in attendence]and more recently viewing some Meraukes l defy 99 out of 100 people to spot the difference even more so when you take a shed cycle into acount...l am an avid believer beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and for those just chiming in remember there was an amnesty in 1995.....cheers solar 17 [baden]..ps.. l think for most of us GTP'S will remain on the wish list.........


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## craftsman (Jun 6, 2008)

I thought it was the name of the game on these forums to remain anonymous.
Apologies accepted Sunny.
My second name is Smily  in case it wasn't a public knowledge. My bodyguard's name is Faustus :evil: and I am a member of the chondro mafia :shock:

Back tomorrow.


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## larks (Jun 7, 2008)

It would come down to trust, but I would at least ask to hear the story of how the seller came to have pure Aussie GTP's. 

And isn't the easiest way to tell the difference from Merauke and Aussie GTP's that the Meraukes get the blue in their bellies and Aussies dont. It wouldn't be 100% as I'm sure some Meraukes would have no blue in their belly.


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## ravensgait (Jun 7, 2008)

craftsman said:


> Randy, your last shot is unmistakably from Iron Ramge - the fence line of King Park with the QPWS barracks in the background. Also, unmistakably Ausie python! The Bade (do you mean Badu?) can't be mistaken for Aus. native for it's yellow snout.


 


Well that does make a real point I guess. The photo of that animal was taken half a world away from Oz, actually near Houston Texas. All three animals are Meraukes, the first has a yellow face from rubbing. . You can't go by appearance alone !
Here's a baby Merauke looks just like a baby Iron range or a baby of most any Locality 





So how do you know what it is? you have to trust the person who you are buying from. Hey if I trust the person I'll take their word for it but all the paper work in the world wont convince me if I don't trust the person, paperwork is easy to make up.

I mentioned this before CBB Meraukes don't seem to have the amount of white their parent may of had. Lots of speculation as to why that is but no one has a real answer as to why. I imagine that Iron Range animals being so much like Meraukes have the same problem. I've seem Meraukes from parents with full stripes that only had a few white dorsal scales. Heck Aru's have the same problems the babies don't seem to have the amount of white their parents did, so again appearances can be misleading

Hey as far as using a name in post here. I've always felt that one should own what they say by using their name... Randy


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## wokka (Jun 7, 2008)

I suggest potential buyers speak to previous past buyers of "natives' from the same supplier and compare notes, then see if the trust is warranted. Ask for documentation, written garantee, receipt payment by cheque etc so you maitain a paper trail. If the buyer is accountable they are more likely to tell the truth.If the refuse its likely they are trying to hide something.


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## Splitmore (Jun 7, 2008)

craftsman said:


> I thought it was the name of the game on these forums to remain anonymous.
> Apologies accepted Sunny.
> My second name is Smily  in case it wasn't a public knowledge. My bodyguard's name is Faustus :evil: and I am a member of the chondro mafia :shock:
> 
> Back tomorrow.



You have already put your name up in your original post when you advertised these animals for sale, how come the sudden change of heart? 
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/for-sale-snakes/green-pythons-78604
Hardly think its fair to have a go at someone for using your first name when you've put it oout there for all to see?
Regards,
Chris Wienholt (just to play the game fair!)


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## wokka (Jun 7, 2008)

I'd get concerned about buying from those who want to remain anonymous. Get rid of McDonalds carpark deals and brown paper bags.To me the aim of this forum is decemination of information and ideas. Preferably truthfully.


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## amazonian (Jun 7, 2008)

*A copy of my original post:*

Craftman,
I have quoted a message from you earlier, I hope you don't mind.



craftman said:


> Interesting to read other people's opinions. By the way, BIGGUY, I managed to obtain copies of 5 permits issued by the QPWS to different individuals (I was one of them) in the mid 80s to collect GTPs at Iron Range, so it wasn't just progeny of Gow's animals that ended up on the market.
> 
> Why would anyone want to buy GTPs straight from the egg? I can sell you established, feeding, 5 months-old juveniles with 100% guarantee to be native.


 
But now you are saying



craftsman said:


> Thanks for your sensible opinion Neil.
> It seems to be the buyer's first question - how do I know, what proof is there? In my opinion, they are asking for the impossible. Even DNA and PIT tags can be swindled, so at the end of the day - it's a question of trust, integrity and reputation on the breeder's part.


 


craftsman said:


> Splitmore, you are going around in circles. Read Neil's and my messages and hopefuly, you will also conclude that you would be asking for the impossible. How can anyone provide with a hard core proof, short of admitting that he/she taken the animals from the wild? And is he/she was stupid enough to say that, would you believe him/her or would you demand a hard core proof of him/her poaching? Perhaps you could conclude the transaction with the breeder in a jail.


 
If 5 permits were attained for the legal collection of GTP's, and accordingly there was progeny provided to the market other than Gows due to this, why would these members face a jail term for disclosing proof of locality? It was all above board wasn't it? Surely these collectors would have the documentation & this I feel would be enough to fulfill any prospective buyers genuine concerns.

_NOTE:_
_This is not an attack, nor is it in anyway a breach of APS rules to ask a genuine question. I have removed the persons name. So please keep this here this time. Thank-you_


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

Good point wokka, the car park and brown paper bags were introduced after numerous GTPs were stolen in Adelaide (at gun point), Townsville, Darwin. I agree, we could do with out it.

Amazonian, if you post was important, send it to me as a PM.

As for the rest of you - why to get personal here?


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## ad (Jun 7, 2008)

It seems to me, breeders get known for their certain lines,
After a while it gets accepted that this breeder has 'these' animals - whatever they may be.
That breeder is already acknowledged and has nothing to gain from being decietful.
One who claims he has something, then ducks and weaves and doesnt fulfil people's expectations of how he got them, starts looking more and more untrustworthy.
Lay it on the table - not just for 'customers' - because potential customers are everywhere, establish your lines as true now - the longer you delay the more your credibility gets questioned. imo


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

Guys, I am out of here. It seems that Amazonian is not least interested in addressing my original post, instead is constantly digging into me, what I said and what I didn't. This post is not about me - my original questions were formulated so both breeders and potential buyers could put forward their opinions and hopefully, both parties benefit from the discussions.
Unfortunately, some chosen to go into personal agruments ..... 

cheers, logging out


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## Ramsayi (Jun 7, 2008)

Seeing as you are in the genuine Aussie GTP game how do you guarantee that what you produce is ridgey didge seeing as you advertise them as such?


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## amazonian (Jun 7, 2008)

Craftsman I am not taking a dig at you.
I am just saying that if these 5 permits were valid then there will be documentation & this should be enough proof IMO. I am answering your original question as you wanted. Why do you see it as an attack?

Of course I am a little confused by your posts as they seem contradictory, and this is why I quoted them. But I am not trying to personally attack you. I have retracted your 1st name as you wished. I answered your question by stating that the documentation from those 5 collectors should be enough proof IMO. Isn't this an answer to the question you were asking? I have addressed your question as you have asked, yet you feel as if I am attacking you. Trust me I am not. I only quoted you because your comments are confusing & how are we to give an accurate and personal answer to your question when the account of facts are changing? How can we answer the question if we are told that there is progeny available then told maybe there isn't etc. 

And to answer you again so we are not confused, disclosure of the collection permit, DNA profiling & Pedigree garuntee is IMHO enough proof for me. If this is not acceptable than let me know and I will change my answer to "The sellers word & faith is enough proof"


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## cockney red (Jun 7, 2008)

Seems a reasonable question to me,but obviously not going to be answered.:?


Ramsayi said:


> Seeing as you are in the genuine Aussie GTP game how do you guarantee that what you produce is ridgey didge seeing as you advertise them as such?


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## spilota_variegata (Jun 7, 2008)

craftsman said:


> The question of "proof of origin" of GTPs that pop up on the Australian market from time to time has been debated on this forum before.
> 
> What really interests me is:
> 
> ...





Ramsayi; said:


> Seeing as you are in the genuine Aussie GTP game how do you guarantee that what you produce is ridgey didge seeing as you advertise them as such?



Hey Craftsman, I think Ramsayi has a good point.

Rather than ask what other people would consider sufficient proof, why not tell everyone your method of proof and ask if we collectively think it is sufficient.

With the price of Aussie GTPs being 60% higher than GTPs from other locations, I feel unambiguous proof of lineage is essential. If it costs the seller a couple of thousand dollars per snake to prove this, so be it - then they can justify the increased price. I've got no idea what DNA testing costs, but this would be a prerequisite to say the least. 

Proof on lineage, an affidavit, a promisory note to hand over your first born son, one of your kidneys.... where does it stop???

Please tell us how you prove your GTPs are the genuine article.

Thanks,

David...


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## amazonian (Jun 7, 2008)

You know what, forget this.
Feel free to delete all my posts from this thread.
Am not going to sit here answering a question and being labeled a trouble maker & have my posts deleted for trying to give an accurate account of my own personal feelings as to what I FEEL IS ENOUGH PROOF.

Craftsman go ahead with your thread.
Everyone else can answer you and cop the brunt for having an opinion.


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## wokka (Jun 7, 2008)

Then, if that proof is found to be wrong what is the compensation. Alegal damages claim only produces fat lawyers so its often good to agree on compensation behand in case, heven forbid the healthy natives hatchoes turn out not to be healthy native adults..


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## CodeRed (Jun 7, 2008)

This thread has taken an interesting turn

Amazonian, none of your posts warranted deletion. You asked the same things we have all been asking for. 

Craftman, since you brought up the topic, show us what proof, if any, you can offer. If you expect anyone to part with a few extra $1000 per snake then they have to see the value in it.


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## meangreen (Jun 7, 2008)

*???????*



amazonian said:


> And to answer you again so we are not confused, disclosure of the collection permit, DNA profiling & Pedigree garuntee is IMHO enough proof for me. If this is not acceptable than let me know and I will change my answer to "The sellers word & faith is enough proof"


 

That’s a far enough statement / answer to this post, if these papers do exist that is, only have ever heard about them never seen or known of anyone first hand to have seen.

If i had those paper i will be showing them off !


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

OK, here we go!
I do have copies of permits (as stated previously) but I don't have any proof and never claimed to have one - that those snakes taken in eighties produced any descendants living today. The snakes are keep now are NOT from those snakes I collected in 1986, however, other people may have some.

My snakes came from an established blood line (no names here) and were DNA profiled by a reputable research lab. The results indicate that the females are descendants from Cape York population and because mitochondrial DNA tell us nothing about the males, the lab used a 'neighbouring analysis' that produced a histogram, where the males clearly fall into the Cape York clade.

I am not going to reveal the costs of the analytical work, nor who done it to protect their identity as they don't want to be swamped by these kind of jobs. There are plenty of commercial DNA labs capable of doing this kind of work.

That is my proof - and I challenge anyone to tell me, why would I go to all this effort and expense - to fool someone?
I feel that I have done more than most other breeders to come up with something solid and yes, my honest word goes with it.

Let me also say this - should anyone ask me to sigh an affidavid, I'll tell them where to go!
I am happy to discuss detail with anyone whom I consider to be genuinely interested in my snakes but I am NOT prepared to hand out all information to anyone who asks for it. Unfortunately, there are too many crooks out there.

I am now realising that this may sound like an advertisement - it is not! I am answering your questions above.


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## Ramsayi (Jun 7, 2008)

Thanks for clarifying craftsman.One of the reasons I have held off obtaining greens is that I would rather our own local ones.Was the DNA work done on your line the same as was done on the URS by any chance?


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

I know nothing about URS line.
I would also like to add that only the breeders were profiled, not their first generation progeny. It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone would raise an argument that the juveniles may not be the progeny of the profiled parents and how do we know that the the parents weren't switched and so on and on. This is where some trust must come in, otherwise we can't move from the dead spot.
By the way, I am happy to provide DNA material of the parents and that can be matched to the progeny by microsatelite DNA analysis (primers for GTPs are readily available) - can be done but will cost a lot. However, the option is there for those who need proof to proof to proof....


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## c moore (Jun 7, 2008)

craftsman,
I think the add in R A Vol 3 issue 6,page 51.Advertising "Aussie GTP's with a pedigree"
100% guaranteed pure Australian bloodlines (parents DNA profiled)
100% guarantee free of exotic disease such as OPMV,IBD.
Volunteer participation in ownership register.
As a prospective buyer for me, this would be a good start.

Craig


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

thanks you Craig, it's good to hear king words for a change.


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## Ramsayi (Jun 7, 2008)

As far as I am aware the work done on the URS line had them "deemed" as Australian in court.I'm sure someone here can elaborate on it.Reason I brought it up was that DNA testing couldn't really differentiate between our natives and greens from PNG? Again I'm sure someone on this forum could elaborate further.


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

yes, the resolution is not great but keep in mind that the Rollins & Donnellan paper was published before David Wilson's work at IR. He contributed over 200 DNA samples, which beefed up the database considerably.
There are still some constraints but with the DNA but hey, that's the best the technology offers.


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## amazonian (Jun 7, 2008)

Change of heart.
No need to go on about it.


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## BT (Jun 7, 2008)

well i belive he has supplied enough proof, i hope to purchase some of you in the future craftsman
Blake


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

Amazonian, if you don't want to continue the discussion with me, then bugger off! I gave you this advise before. Start you own thread and lets see how many people will join in on your sarcastic waffle.
You are completely off the rails re - Bob Buckley's case. Bob is an old friend of mine and I know what happened, when and why, whilst you have obviously no idea.

To the rest of you - my sincere thanks for your input, we've managed 5 pages of interesting discussion, which I hope it was useful, some comments very genuine and to the point, other sdriven by other desires.
If I want to advertise or promote my snakes, I will do it in the 'for sale section' not here.

Thanks again


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## c moore (Jun 7, 2008)

Just for the record,I don't know craftsman or did i know that add in R A was his.
For one the add he has on here and the the one in the magazine have two completely
different email addresses.So it wasn't an attempt to boost his sales.I was stating my opinion that 
the information provided would be sufficient evidence for me as a prospective buyer.
However i would like to buy some in the future & would consider nothing less than a pure aussie GTP
& the fact that there is somebody out there who has gone to the trouble to provide the buyer with strong evidence,as to the locality of their lines in my opinion is to be congratulated for there efforts.

Regards,
Craig


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## amazonian (Jun 7, 2008)

*Sorry I removed my post before you replied.*
*I actually had a change of heart and was goign to continue stayign out of this thread. *
*But meh why should I avoid a thread of interest to me. Anyway **let me repeat what was said for all to see so they know what your reply was meant for:* 

*Firstly*
I said my response to your question was pretty much the same as c moores only I didn't copy your add in RA word for word and help boost your sales, yet I was flamed as an attacker & the other member thanked for his kind contribution. My answer of DNA profiling and pedigree garuntee wasn't good enough, yet copying your advertisement was. So obviously I know the correct answer now. The same as c moores.

*Secondly*
As said I would like to continue this discussion just not with yourself. You find my posts as attacking, and I find yours as self indulging. So it best we just don't speak to each other. I will however continue to respond to others though as it is an interesting subject & I have every right to be apart of it. Nothing personal I just don't feel we can communicate to one another. Hope we can move past this thread and atleast be mature enough from this point on to continue the discussion without getting argumentative between ourselves. Best to ignore each other I think.. As I said before "enough said". I will speak directly to others and even post their username 1st so there is no misunderstanding of who I am speaking to.


*Thirdly*
Ramsayi,
Bob Buckleys confiscated animals were DNA tested when returned. There was no conclusive differences in the results so they were deemed australian. URS bought 6 of these and bred them in 2003. I have heard DNA testing can only distinguish differences in races except for Cape York & Meraukes, however I have also heard only females show differences and males are all alike, and finally I heard there is no conclusive differences at all between any of the species and all are the same. Who knows


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## spilota_variegata (Jun 7, 2008)

craftsman said:


> OK, here we go!
> I do have copies of permits (as stated previously) but I don't have any proof and never claimed to have one - that those snakes taken in eighties produced any descendants living today. The snakes are keep now are NOT from those snakes I collected in 1986, however, other people may have some.
> 
> My snakes came from an established blood line (no names here) and were DNA profiled by a reputable research lab. The results indicate that the females are descendants from Cape York population and because mitochondrial DNA tell us nothing about the males, the lab used a 'neighbouring analysis' that produced a histogram, where the males clearly fall into the Cape York clade.
> ...



Looks like you've done your homework and have the right paperwork. I cannot doubt your trustworthiness or integirty as I don't know you. I do however find it strange that you stop short of legally implicating yourself to your word by refusing to sign a legal document that would give people an avenue to seek compensation should it be required.

I thank you personally for stating your method of verification. I'm sure there will be many who will feel the same.

Just for interests sake, are the copies of the permits legally verified - it is very easy to fake a copy of a permit. I know in the NT, the whole permit system had to be changed because of the actions of one person who was exporting snakes with fake permits.


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

First to Ramsay - Amazonia is repeating I heard, I heard, I heard .... trust me, he has no idea! Bob's animals were never returned, but why am I going into this? Talk to bob if you need to know what happened, I just feel that's water under the bridge - that's what Bob is saying too.

To S. variegata: I give people a pedigree that states ALL relevant information including that about the DNA results. I sign the pedigree. 
I also happen to be a JP (Qual) but as such, I can't sigh my own declarations, so if you want me sign an affidavid, you have to come along with one of my colleagues. LOL


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## CodeRed (Jun 7, 2008)

No wonder so many people opt not to buy GTPs .. its a mine field.

Craftman, maybe you and some of your colleges that were there at the start of all this could one day clear the air so that the rest of us dont have to rely on rumours anymore. Id love to hear the facts (of anyone truly knows them) about all the major lines. Of course this will never completely happen and we will be left with only pieces of the puzzle.


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## amazonian (Jun 7, 2008)

Ramsayi,
It is true I heard it lol.
But so has every other reptile keeper in Australia hence your question to begin with.
The fact remains that no1 on this site knows for sure what DNA profiling shows unless been involved with it personally. Otherwise it is all hearsay. We have all heard so many different stories about it. There is just too many politics involved with GTP's IMO and with that comes the good & bad elements. If anyone can show us that DNA profiling shows 100% difference between each & every race than feel free to share the facts. That may make it easier for buyers to spend the extra money and also answer the question of what proof is needed. Otherwise I admit I have no idea (along with the majority of others) as we have heard so many different accounts from so many different breeders and I am simply repeating this NOT AS FACT but as I HEARD which I clearly stated. As far as I am aware from what I hear, there is no substantial differences that are conclusive with DNA testing. If anyone knows otherwise please feel free to correct me and the hundreds of others.

And Ramsayi,
I appologise for my infomation not being 100% correct however the results remain the same. Tim at URS has animals from Bob Buckley's line, whether or not they came from Bob Buckley himself, QPWS or Queen Latifah is irrelevant, the fact is that is where they came from. Anyway those were DNA tested and the results were as described above INCONCLUSIVE.


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## Ramsayi (Jun 7, 2008)

Im sure Bob Withey could set the record straight with regard to confiscated animals from years ago if he feels like wading into this topic that is.

Craftsman I realise you are doing your best to answer some of the questions put forward and I appreciate it however one thing about your guarantee on pedigree is confusing me.I brought up how DNA testing will get you at best a "deemed" pure result to which we both agreed deemed and fact are perhaps two different things.URS can also give the same guarantee so what separates your greens from Tims besides an extra few grand?

Please dont read this as me having a go at you as I am not.Its just that the entire guarantee line has me genuinely intrigued and I guess it then comes back to taking your word for it.


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

Ramsey,
did I ever say question URS snakes? Honestly, I don't know what Tim has got in a way of natives or if had his DNA profiled or if he gives a guarantee, etc..
I thrust Tim is an honest person and if says he has natives, so be it.
I don't conform, nor compete with his or anyone else's prices. After all, the market sets the prices, not the sellers.
Please, all of you who consider my price to be too high - don't buy from me! Why do I feel that there are people who think I am twisting their arm?


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## marty (Jun 7, 2008)

some time ago i was looking at getting a few more GTP's. i contacted a well known suppler and asked if the GTP's where of Australian origin. as i had been through this "aussie blood line" bit before i was curious to see the reply. this is a direct lift from the email i received.
"The origin of the blood line is that they are all Australian of course as they all have to be .... and if you believe that then you would have to believe the rubbish sprouted by everyone with GTPs in Australia ..... My best guess is that the male is an Aru/Cape York origin animal and the female is Sorong. All the babies are yellow."
it was great to get an honest and crap free reply. i have aquired several reptiles from this supplier and have complete trust in their advice, animals and honesty.
i belive the reply i got sums up the whole "blood line" debate


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

Marty,
what it sums up, is that you got honest information about specific animals from their breeder - congratulations, that's how it should be!.
Do you imply that rest of us is sprouting rubbish?


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## amazonian (Jun 7, 2008)

Marty any chance you could possibly PM me the persons name or details?
Or even contact them on my behalf and ask if it is ok to have their details?


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## marty (Jun 7, 2008)

hey craftsman please... aggression...
i am implying nothing.
as stated the email i receiced is exactly as i quoted. 
the persons involved have had many many years experience and are well educated in herpatology with enough certificates to wall paper a room. 
amazonian
i will contact the person involved and get there OK before i pass on any info. with the aggressive undertones of this thread i dare not drag them down to this level. i'm sure you understand.


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## craftsman (Jun 7, 2008)

aggression?

Take it over guys, I am out of here.


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## Australis (Jun 9, 2008)

Interesting read..


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## Retic (Jun 9, 2008)

Basically if you are happy to pay the extra and happy to take the word of the breeder then the onus is on you. PERSONALLY I wouldn't pay the extra as there seems little point BUT that is purely my opinion. To me it is no different to breeders selling locality Jungles, you take their word for it as it is impossible to separate them visually to a point you can say that a certain animal is definitely a Tully or Palmerston or anything else. 
No amount of DNA profiling guarantees you that the animal you buy is Australian it only shows that the parents may have originated here.
This is NOT a dig at anyone, merely the fact that because visually or genetically it seems as though Australian and Merauke Greens can't be separated then it again comes back to trust in the breeder. 
The vast majority of breeders are trustworthy and sometimes you have to go with your gut.


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