# New: Advice and ideas for a snake would be appreciated!



## ShrimpKing (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi all,

I have been keeping Aussie turtles, Blue tongue skinks and countless aquariums for many years now and I have finally gotten to the point of potentially investing some time into keeping a snake. I have never owned a snake before.

I have some specific requirements, I am open to anyone's ideas.
Here is what I am looking for in a snake:

-Can be kept under a NSW R1 class licence
-The smaller the better (like I really only want a SMALL snake)
-Can be kept in a semi-aquatic enclosure 
(I want to have a custom built enclosure, the bottom third will be an aquarium with bulkheads leading to filtration and heating and small schools of Australian Smelt, and the top two thirds will be an arboreal environment. That way the snake can live its days in the trees but still go for a swim or a feed in the water.)

I have heard that Stimson's pythons and Pygmy pythons stay relatively small, however I do not know if these snakes would do well in such a humid (semi-aquatic) environment. 

Again, I have never owned a snake before, so any and all advice would be great. 

Cheers, ShrimpKing


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## Imported_tuatara (Mar 10, 2018)

semi aquatic...Keelback/freshwater snake would probs be your only option, they stay relatively small too. dunno if they're on the R1, but they're definitely a more active snake. is there any specific reason it has to be semi-aquatic?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 10, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> is there any specific reason it has to be semi-aquatic?


Because of the above mentioned setup he wants to use...


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 10, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> semi aquatic...Keelback/freshwater snake would probs be your only option, they stay relatively small too. dunno if they're on the R1, but they're definitely a more active snake. is there any specific reason it has to be semi-aquatic?



Yeah mate, there is no way I am getting a new pet without there being some sort of aquarium involved.
I'd like to have a habitat set up that resembles a Riparian zone, having both the "river" and the "trees".

Keelback's only grow to 75cm, so that is a good option. Thanks

(Keelbacks are only on Class 2 licence)


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 10, 2018)

ShrimpKing said:


> Keelback's only grow to 75cm, so that is a good option. Thanks



It's probably your *only *option... Stimmie's and Pygmy's would not suit your proposed habitat.


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 10, 2018)

Yes I suspected they would not suit such a habitat. 

I am open to larger snakes (prefer smaller) but it has to be a species that could cope with the humidity and the semi-aquatic habitat.


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## Bl69aze (Mar 10, 2018)

Sounds like you aren’t wanting a snake out of interest in snakes but rather just so you can add it to your list of things you keep.


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## cris (Mar 10, 2018)

There are a few aquatic and semiaqautic snakes, but I don't think any are on that lower category (I don't know the list though). Common tree snakes should be fine in that sort of enclosure, but not the best choice as a first snake.


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## Snapped (Mar 10, 2018)

Would the chemicals in the aquarium be dangerous for a snake? (just thinking out loud here) and how would the snake have a cool zone?


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## cris (Mar 10, 2018)

Water skinks might be worth considering if you are interested in other reptiles.



Snapped said:


> Would the chemicals in the aquarium be dangerous for a snake? (just thinking out loud here) and how would the snake have a cool zone?



You shouldn't need to add chemicals to an aquarium under normal circumstances. Some poisons used to control fish disease can be harmful to snakes, so it would be best to remove the fish or snake if you needed to treat the fish. The water would be cool enough in most situations. Heat should be provided by a basking light to create an area of lower humidity.


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 10, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Sounds like you aren’t wanting a snake out of interest in snakes but rather just so you can add it to your list of things you keep.


Excuse me, but it is my love of aquatic animals that is the reasoning behind my proposed design and requirements for a snake. If it was indeed how you say (just to add it to a list of things that I keep), then why would I not just buy a whole lot of easy going cheap snakes to improve my "list"? Instead, I have been extremely specific in what I am looking for, because I KNOW what I am looking for and am not just "adding to a list". 



cris said:


> Water skinks might be worth considering if you are interested in other reptiles.
> 
> Common Tree snakes were my first thought, but yes, probably not a good first snake. I have thought of Eastern Water Skinks, however aquarium bulkheads and weirs are apparently unsafe for smaller skinks (risk of drowning).
> 
> You shouldn't need to add chemicals to an aquarium under normal circumstances. Some poisons used to control fish disease can be harmful to snakes, so it would be best to remove the fish or snake if you needed to treat the fish. The water would be cool enough in most situations. Heat should be provided by a basking light to create an area of lower humidity.



Purified rainwater and poses no threat to ELN turtles or skinks, so the water isn't an issue (unless treating ailments and diseases as stated above).


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 10, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Sounds like you aren’t wanting a snake out of interest in snakes but rather just so you can add it to your list of things you keep.



Bl69aze, that comment's unnecessary. Some people may simply have specific requirements for what they want in a pet. Some people wish to keep their snakes in simple easy to clean setups, while some want something that's easy to handle, and others are interested in unusual colours etc. In ShrimpKing's case he's interested in aquatic critters.


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## Buggster (Mar 10, 2018)

The only thing I can think of that may suit is a Water Python, but they are by no means a small snake (nor are they known for their docile temperaments...).

If you’re willing to wait and put your project on hold, you can first get a smaller snake (like a Stimsons) and gain experience and confidence with the care and handling of the animal before moving onto something bigger.

The only problem I see with your idea is the bottom third as being only water- whatever snake you get (be it a Water Python, Keelback...) is going to need somewhere to stretch out on the ground and can’t be expected to live solely in the branches or on the water. A suggestion would be instead create a ‘sloped’ surface so that say half of the ‘ground’ is above water and dry at any time. While this would mean a larger enclosure to fit everything in, it would look awesome.

And if you’re willing to give up the whole aquatic snake altogether, a GTP may suit as they do live their lives almost entirely in the tree and do require a higher humidity than other snakes (from memory...). Again they would still need a place on the ground to be able to go down to if they want, but they do make awesome display animals and a water feature in the tank would look stunning with them. Don’t think they’re real keen swimmers though, so you’re unlikely to see them going for a splash or fish.

They are R2 animals, but again, they are a trickier species to keep so it would be worth getting a more sturdy animal to play around with first (in a ‘typical’ setup).

Please keep us updated! I’d love to see how it turns out
[doublepost=1520657996,1520657742][/doublepost]


(From google) this is someone GTP setup- Snake is on the right wall just about half way up.


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## Bl69aze (Mar 10, 2018)

Sorry about my “rude” response earlier.

I only skimmed your post and the parts that stuck out was that you kept all that other stuff and wanted a snake. And in my rush I took it as “I only want a snake because I’ve never had one but it has to be X X and X “ and I didn’t read the requirements u set out


Unless youre living over a lake in a rainforest, I wouldn’t think ambient humidity would be such a problem compared to humidity from people spraying their enclosure and their heat lamps sucking it all up.


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 10, 2018)

Buggster said:


> The only thing I can think of that may suit is a Water Python, but they are by no means a small snake (nor are they known for their docile temperaments...).
> 
> If you’re willing to wait and put your project on hold, you can first get a smaller snake (like a Stimsons) and gain experience and confidence with the care and handling of the animal before moving onto something bigger.
> 
> ...



Cheers for the advice!

The setup that I am thinking of would actually have a ledge down the bottom that would act as a "ground level". However below this ledge would be the aquarium level. The ledge would span most of the surface area but there would still be sloped spaces on the sides and front (for access). 

I am really liking the idea of a Keelback, but that will mean keeping other snake/s first for both experience and R2 requirements. 

While GTP are beautiful, they are a big snake, which means a massive enclosure (if I were to add a water level it would be even more so).

Thanks for the advice, will keep it in mind. 





Bl69aze said:


> Sorry about my “rude” response earlier.
> 
> I only skimmed your post and the parts that stuck out was that you kept all that other stuff and wanted a snake. And in my rush I took it as “I only want a snake because I’ve never had one but it has to be X X and X “ and I didn’t read the requirements u set out
> 
> ...



All good, just making sure we are clear. The passion is real, but i'm not getting my first snake just to have one, I want it to be through real passion.


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## Imported_tuatara (Mar 10, 2018)

What size is the enclosure, too?


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## Scutellatus (Mar 10, 2018)

If done correctly with enough air flow, there isn't a reason that you couldn't pick any species of snake. You best bet would be to get a reptile identification book/field guide and find something that catches your eye. Then work on the specifics of how much humidity the particular species can handle and design the air flow in the enclosure around that.


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## cris (Mar 10, 2018)

ShrimpKing said:


> While GTP are beautiful, they are a big snake, which means a massive enclosure (if I were to add a water level it would be even more so).



They are not that big and do not require a massive enclosure, if they are available on your licence that would be my pick if you don't feel confident about getting a common tree snake. I'm not actually sure if keeping other snakes would make you better prepared to keep a tree snake. The potential problems with tree snakes occur if they are not weaned before you get them or if you are not able to handle a snake that is very fast and agile.


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## Buggster (Mar 10, 2018)

Only issue I'm seeing with Keelbacks is that I don't believe that they are a particularly good choice for an arboreal tank- I believe they are a more ground-dwelling species (and not to mention their availability in the hobby- I've yet to see one for sale or anyone mention they actually own one).

While GTP's may grow big they're not a species that needs a whole lot of space- they don't move around all that much and pretty much stick to their perch. Height is more important to them than anything else, but I've seen adults successfully kept in smaller enclosures (3ft h 1ft w 1ft l). 
They are also not a species that should be handled too often which is something to consider. As babies their skin can be very fragile, and as adults getting them off a perch can be a real pain (literally- they have huge teeth).

If you're wanting to jump straight into keeping, the only other thing I can think of is a Diamond Python (which are relatively cheap, readily available and amazing looking animals). They are another arboreal python who does prefer a higher humidity than some other snake (and are also on R1). While for the most part very docile snakes they do tend to grow very big (around the 2-3m mark) but are an incredibly slow growing python (my 2 yr old Diamond is half the size and a fraction of the weight of my 2yr old Woma (and Woma's usually max out at the 1.5m mark)). I'm planning on moving him into an aviary when he gets really big, but that's a few years off yet, so it's not a terrible idea to get one as a practise/starter snake as I imagine what you are proposing would suit one, for a few years at least.
[doublepost=1520664057,1520663844][/doublepost]

Here’s my 2yr old boy. Excuse the mess of a tank- it’s clean up day and I was in the process of stripping the tank when Mr Cranky woke up. He spends 80% of his time up on the branches, 15% in his hanging boxes and the other 5% on the ground


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 10, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> What size is the enclosure, too?



I am thinking of having an enclosure that is 2 foot (depth) by 3 foot (width). The water section would be 1 foot high and then from the waterline to the top of the enclosure it would be 2 foot high. (Rough measurements)



Scutellatus said:


> If done correctly with enough air flow, there isn't a reason that you couldn't pick any species of snake. You best bet would be to get a reptile identification book/field guide and find something that catches your eye. Then work on the specifics of how much humidity the particular species can handle and design the air flow in the enclosure around that.



I am looking to actually have a species that would be active in an aquatic environment. (Hence why I am steering away from Stimson's and a pygmy).



Buggster said:


> Only issue I'm seeing with Keelbacks is that I don't believe that they are a particularly good choice for an arboreal tank- I believe they are a more ground-dwelling species (and not to mention their availability in the hobby- I've yet to see one for sale or anyone mention they actually own one).
> 
> While GTP's may grow big they're not a species that needs a whole lot of space- they don't move around all that much and pretty much stick to their perch. Height is more important to them than anything else, but I've seen adults successfully kept in smaller enclosures (3ft h 1ft w 1ft l).
> They are also not a species that should be handled too often which is something to consider. As babies their skin can be very fragile, and as adults getting them off a perch can be a real pain (literally- they have huge teeth).
> ...



Diamond Pythons are a bit too big. I am hoping to have a very big enclosure with a small snake (so that the snake has more than amble room, and then some more). I know I may seem to be picky, but as I have said above, I want to get this just right (a lot easier said than done).


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## Bl69aze (Mar 10, 2018)

You will find snakes prefer secluded areas as long as it provides everything they need


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## Imported_tuatara (Mar 10, 2018)

keelbacks are very much active, also diurnal. Except; they are also almost 3 feet long, and from what i know not very good at tree climbing, so that could possibly be a bad choice.


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## cris (Mar 10, 2018)

ShrimpKing said:


> I am thinking of having an enclosure that is 2 foot (depth) by 3 foot (width). The water section would be 1 foot high and then from the waterline to the top of the enclosure it would be 2 foot high. (Rough measurements)



That is a very good size for a green tree python or a common tree snake. Pythons are not very active animals, I think a common tree snake is the best fit for your criteria. If you can find one that is weaned and are able to deal with their speed and agility. The speed and agility is less of an issue if you keep them in a room were they cannot slide under a door, under a fridge etc. if they fly out of the enclosure. If you get a hatchling you should also start it off in a small plastic enclosure.


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## GBWhite (Mar 10, 2018)

Personally my friends, if you have no previous experience in keeping snake I would recommend you educate yourself and get some background experience on the the subject of housing snakes in captivity before even attempting to keep one in a set up as described. My concern is for the welfare of the snake and what you propose is not something for an inexperienced keeper to attempt.


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## cris (Mar 10, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> Personally my friends, if you have no previous experience in keeping snake I would recommend you educate yourself and get some background experience on the the subject of housing snakes in captivity before even attempting to keep one in a set up as described. My concern is for the welfare of the snake and what you propose is not something for an inexperienced keeper to attempt.



I get what you are saying here, I'm not really experienced to comment as I grew up catching tree snakes and stuff from a young age, so I don't really know the learning curve if starting from scratch at an older age. I think some people are likely to be able to deal with this sort of challenge without much trouble, while others who have kept pythons for many years would be unable to.


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 10, 2018)

All points noted!

Ive had encounters with Common tree snakes before (Photography trips) and am fascinated by such a snake. 

GBWhite, I do not pretend to be ready for anything intense and your advice is helpful. 
It is something I have not experienced before, and this project will spend much time in the planning/research gallery! 
Thank you for your honesty.


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## Bluetongue1 (Mar 11, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> keelbacks are very much active, also diurnal. Except; they are also almost 3 feet long, and from what i know not very good at tree climbing, so that could possibly be a bad choice.


According to AROD Keelbacks average 50 cm and get to a maximum of 1.2 m. Whereas Common Tree snakes average around 1 m in length and can get to 2 m. Be careful when making assumptionsor statements about a snake’s climbing ability. This news article was recently featured on a thread here…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/tiger-snake-balancing-act-at-tasmanian-winery/9445744.

What is being proposed would be ideal for a Keelback. Here is a thread by Baker showing his set up for his keelback…
https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/threads/keelback-enclosure.221883/

There were some comments made about the potential dangers of chemicals in aquariums to reptiles. I don’t wish to offend, but that is not correct. Aquatic organisms are a lot more sensitive to water quality than terrestrial animals, including reptiles. If freshwater fish are heathy and living in the water, then it is fit to drink for reptiles (or humans for that matter).

As with all animals, good husbandry avoids the need for medications. Where things do wrong, for whatever reason, and tanks need to be medicated, the chemicals utilised are designed to be used at concentrations that will correct the ailment whilst not adversely affecting the occupants, including aquatic reptiles such as turtles. Treatment in a “hospital tank” does not involve other organisms, so is not relevant to this discussion, but the same realities apply. Note, we are talking freshwater aquariums, so the various chemicals utilised in marine tanks are not relevant.


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## Snapped (Mar 11, 2018)

It's good to have such broad experience on here.

What if the snake poops in the water? (I know mine do in their water bowl 90% of the time)....would that harm the fish or would the filtration take care of it?


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## cris (Mar 11, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> There were some comments made about the potential dangers of chemicals in aquariums to reptiles. I don’t wish to offend, but if you were an experienced aquarist and also had expertise in keeping reptiles, you would know this is not correct. Fish are a lot more sensitive to water quality than terrestrial reptiles and the experienced aquarist. If freshwater fish are heathy and living in the water, then it is fit drink for reptiles (or humans).



I obviously think you are wrong, just because something is safe for one animal doesn't automatically make it safe for another. I cannot recall what it is but there is one chemical in particular that is used to treat fish that is highly toxic to snakes and can be lethal if the fish are eaten.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 11, 2018)

Plenty of chemicals out there used in aquariums for fish and algae that will annihilate crayfish, shrimps and snails in minutes... Plenty of chems that won't affect turtles at all (like chlorine and chloramine) that will roll fish in minutes too.


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## Bluetongue1 (Mar 11, 2018)

Snapped said:


> It's good to have such broad experience on here.
> 
> 
> What if the snake poops in the water? (I know mine do in their water bowl 90% of the time)....would that harm the fish or would the filtration take care of it?


That would not be a problem I would expect most of the poop to end up in the water. It would undergo the same process as fish poop. Note that turtles poop in water in copious quantities. This is addressed through a higher rate of filtration than that required for just fish and the OP has experience at keeping turtles. Given the size of the intended enclosure I’d reckon a standard filtration for that sized aquarium would be fine. If you should be interested in the basics of filtration for freshwater aquaria, I am happy to provide an outline (either here or via PM).



cris said:


> I obviously think you are wrong, just because something is safe for one animal doesn't automatically make it safe for another. I cannot recall what it is but there is one chemical in particular that is used to treat fish that is highly toxic to snakes and can be lethal if the fish are eaten.


It is all well and good to make that statement, but unfortunately it carries no weight without being able to identify the chemical concerned. I have operated a least one aquarium (and usually more) continuously for over 30 years now and don’t know which chemical you are referring to. It may possibly be one the old style toxic treatments which have since be replaced by much safer alternative these days.

At no stage did I state or intimate that “because something is safe for one animal” that “automatically makes it safe for another”. One has only to look at the example of the medication Ivermectin. It is used for mite problems with other reptile groups, and also marine fish, but is highly toxic to turtles and tortoises.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 11, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> One has only to look at the example of the medication Ivermectin. It is used for mite problems with other reptile groups, and also marine fish, but is highly toxic to turtles and tortoises.


This is very true. Ivermectin should not be administered to turtles at all to treat a worm or nematode infestation. Instead, Panacur (Fenbendazole) should be administered orally at the rate of 25 mg/kg once a fortnight for 8 weeks


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 11, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> According to AROD Keelbacks average 50 cm and get to a maximum of 1.2 m. Whereas Common Tree snakes average around 1 m in length and can get to 2 m. Be careful when making assumptionsor statements about a snake’s climbing ability. This news article was recently featured on a thread here…
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/tiger-snake-balancing-act-at-tasmanian-winery/9445744.
> 
> What is being proposed would be ideal for a Keelback. Here is a thread by Baker showing his set up for his keelback…
> ...




I assure you, I have kept turtles, shrimp, crayfish and many species of fish all in the same tank for 6 years. I use no chemicals and would treat an aquatic snake enclosure in the same way that I keep either my turtle tank or my native fish breeding tank. I have never had to use "Chemicals".

Thank you Bluetongue1, that thread is great! While my idea for a tank would be slightly different, that is the general methodology behind how I would achieve such a habitat.






Snapped said:


> It's good to have such broad experience on here.
> 
> What if the snake poops in the water? (I know mine do in their water bowl 90% of the time)....would that harm the fish or would the filtration take care of it?



As for the snake pooping in the water (Valid question by Snapped), turtles poop in the water all the time. The Uric acid that reptiles excrete is similar (concentration is different) between snakes and turtles. Proper chemical filtration (type of aquarium filtration, NOT using "chemicals") and bio filtration take care of this.


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## Rowdy71 (Mar 11, 2018)

cris said:


> I obviously think you are wrong, just because something is safe for one animal doesn't automatically make it safe for another. I cannot recall what it is but there is one chemical in particular that is used to treat fish that is highly toxic to snakes and can be lethal if the fish are eaten.


hi

used to keep marine fish and i remember the treatment for white spot (parasitical infestation) had a warning on the bottle, not to eat fish that were treated with this medicine. i didnt eat my marine fish so i never thought twice about it.
some toxins in fish can also become more concentrated in predators as the fish is only exposed once but the predator consumes many affected fish and the toxin builds. this is not caused by the water though and im fairly sure any activated carbon in the fish filter would effectively remove it from the water.

hope this helped


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 11, 2018)

Rowdy71 said:


> hi
> 
> used to keep marine fish and i remember the treatment for white spot (parasitical infestation) had a warning on the bottle, not to eat fish that were treated with this medicine. i didnt eat my marine fish so i never thought twice about it.
> some toxins in fish can also become more concentrated in predators as the fish is only exposed once but the predator consumes many affected fish and the toxin builds. this is not caused by the water though and im fairly sure any activated carbon in the fish filter would effectively remove it from the water.
> ...



Hi mate, 
You are absolutely right!!
I don't treat fish disease (my tank usually balances itself).
Biomagnification through the food chain is always a concern, however again, my freshwater systems are packed with activated carbon and all sorts of bio filtration.

Im not saying that the reptile, in this case a snake, is above harm, but with the proper setup (that has been cycled for a few months) many bio-magnified chemicals can be completely avoided.


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## cris (Mar 11, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> It is all well and good to make that statement, but unfortunately it carries no weight without being able to identify the chemical concerned. I have operated a least one aquarium (and usually more) continuously for over 30 years now and don’t know which chemical you are referring to. It may possibly be one the old style toxic treatments which have since be replaced by much safer alternative these days.



I just remember the warning from a credible source specificially in relation to feeding aquarium fish to snakes. Anyway not worth arguing about.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 11, 2018)

cris said:


> I just remember the warning from a credible source specificially in relation to feeding aquarium fish to snakes. Anyway not worth arguing about.


You shouldn't feed goldfish to any reptile, including snakes... that includes all members of the goldfish and Carps - fancy and ordinary, the entire cyprinidae family of fishes, goldfishes, Carps and minnows are extremely high in thiaminase enzymes that when ingested, cause a thiamin (vitamin B1) deficiency in reptiles.

The below diagram shows where thiaminase cleaves vitamin B1 rendering it useless.


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## cris (Mar 11, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> You shouldn't feed goldfish to any reptile, including snakes... that includes all members of the goldfish and Carps - fancy and ordinary, the entire cyprinidae family of fishes, goldfishes, Carps and minnows are extremely high in thiaminase enzymes that when ingested, cause a thiamin (vitamin B1) deficiency in reptiles.
> 
> The below diagram shows where thiaminase cleaves vitamin B1 rendering it useless.
> View attachment 323575



This came up when I was looking for the info about what the chemical I was trying to remember. In reply to a similar comment to yours.



geckodan said:


> The author has missed several points that were corrected by the first reply. The thiaminase is live fish is inactive. It might well be in high levels but it is non functional until it undergoes an unexpected chemical conversion following the thawing process where it becomes activated and now able to cause damage. Those fish are perfectly safe to use if not frozen. You'll notice all references to thiaminases in live fish are referred to as anecdotal evidence, postulated theories and suggested ideas - there is no scientific evidence to back it up and ceratinly there is no veterinary evidence to support thiamin deficiency fron feeding live fish.


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 11, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> You shouldn't feed goldfish to any reptile, including snakes... that includes all members of the goldfish and Carps - fancy and ordinary, the entire cyprinidae family of fishes, goldfishes, Carps and minnows are extremely high in thiaminase enzymes that when ingested, cause a thiamin (vitamin B1) deficiency in reptiles.
> 
> The below diagram shows where thiaminase cleaves vitamin B1 rendering it useless.
> View attachment 323575



YES! The very first thing my mate told me when I asked about turtle tank mates was that the cyprinidae are to be avoided unless you want a dead turtle.

If I were to have fish in a tank with a snake, they would be small native fish. For example: Australian Smelt, some types of Rainbow fish and small gudgeons. 



cris said:


> This came up when I was looking for the info about what the chemical I was trying to remember. In reply to a similar comment to yours.



Still wouldn't risk it!


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## baker (Mar 11, 2018)

ShrimpKing said:


> If I were to have fish in a tank with a snake, they would be small native fish. For example: Australian Smelt, some types of Rainbow fish and small gudgeons.



From my own experiences owning a keelback, while it looks awesome with the snake and fish in the same tank, the snake always ends up eating the fish. If you don't mind that happening then go for it, just make sure to chose fish that would be safe for the snake to eat. Only way you'd probably get away with it is if the fish were large enough the snake does not see them as food, but not large enough that they could damage the snake in any way. Tiny fish can last for a while as well, but even in complex aquariums the snake typically ends up getting them in the end. With keelbacks it's really not a matter of if they will eat the fish, its a matter of when. 

From the sounds of the sort of tank that you're aiming for a keelback is probably the best choice for you. If given the option they can and do climb pretty well, but most of the time they're either on the ground or swimming. For mine I would say a decent 70 plus % of his time is spent in the water. They aren't inherently difficult snakes to keep, give them a hot spot, water and food and they're fine. Hardest part with them is that they start tiny, can have a flighty personality and that coupled with being rather fast when scared would make them a challenge for people without experience with snakes. They also aren't the easiest snakes to come across for sale and there is not much around detailing their captive management. Ben Moore did a good article though in a scales and tails issue a couple of years a go and Scott Eipper's book "A complete guide to Australian snakes, elapid and colubrids" has an excellent section on them as well. Both of these sources of information potentially may be a bit of a challenge to track down though. 

There are other species though for you to look into. A Macleay's water snake (_Pseudoferania polyepis_) or either of the file snakes (_Acrochordus sp._) are other options for this style set up and are all interesting snakes in their own rights as they are predominantly aquatic. From what I've heard Macleay's do seem to like the availability of a branch to 'bask' on and get out of the water, but most of the time they're in the water. Again any of these species are going to be difficult to find for sale with little information out there on their care. That and these species may be more difficult animals to keep, but I don't have personal experience with any of them so I can't really comment. 

Cheers, Cameron


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 11, 2018)

cris said:


> This came up when I was looking for the info about what the chemical I was trying to remember. In reply to a similar comment to yours.


Yeah that's actually garbage about it being inactive in live fish... watch what happens to alligators when they eat shad, another species high in thiaminase enzymes... bye bye alligators...


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## Bluetongue1 (Mar 12, 2018)

My apologies Cris. I was being a bit too bloody minded about the use of chemicals. What I should have said is that when added to water in the dosages appropriate for fish, I cannot think of a specific chemical that would harm a snake. 

You made a valid point about the possibility of bioaccumulation, which I had not considered directly. However I was going to make the point that it would not be wise to feed medicated fish to reptiles or other animals. So the snake etc. should be re-housed for the full duration of any treatments, allowing fish the time required to fully breakdown and/or excrete the active metabolites and for these to be removed from the water. Of course good husbandry can avoid all this in the first place.


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## ShrimpKing (Mar 12, 2018)

baker said:


> From my own experiences owning a keelback, while it looks awesome with the snake and fish in the same tank, the snake always ends up eating the fish. If you don't mind that happening then go for it, just make sure to chose fish that would be safe for the snake to eat. Only way you'd probably get away with it is if the fish were large enough the snake does not see them as food, but not large enough that they could damage the snake in any way. Tiny fish can last for a while as well, but even in complex aquariums the snake typically ends up getting them in the end. With keelbacks it's really not a matter of if they will eat the fish, its a matter of when.
> 
> From the sounds of the sort of tank that you're aiming for a keelback is probably the best choice for you. If given the option they can and do climb pretty well, but most of the time they're either on the ground or swimming. For mine I would say a decent 70 plus % of his time is spent in the water. They aren't inherently difficult snakes to keep, give them a hot spot, water and food and they're fine. Hardest part with them is that they start tiny, can have a flighty personality and that coupled with being rather fast when scared would make them a challenge for people without experience with snakes. They also aren't the easiest snakes to come across for sale and there is not much around detailing their captive management. Ben Moore did a good article though in a scales and tails issue a couple of years a go and Scott Eipper's book "A complete guide to Australian snakes, elapid and colubrids" has an excellent section on them as well. Both of these sources of information potentially may be a bit of a challenge to track down though.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Cameron. 
The Macleays seem to stay relatively small too, making them another POTENTIAL species to keep. 

As for the fish, I would not mind if some/all were eaten. Hunting for live food, in my believe, is what all reptiles should have in a home enclosure (whether crickets, snails for Blueys or fish). The "natural" hunting behaviours are just fascinating to watch. That being said, free swimmers like Australian Smelt would be easy meals for any predator. Larger species of rainbowfish, if allowed to grow big enough, may likely be too big to be seen as a potential meal (but then wont grow too big to pose a threat to the snake). Many species of gudgeon (my first choice for native fish in this instance) are exceptional at evading predators. Being benthic in nature, many gudgeons survive with turtles, and while snakes hunt in a different way, I believe the gudgeons would thrive. 

However, I am prepared for any and all of the fish to become potential meals (Marine Aquaria 101).


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 12, 2018)

Most reptiles have a very poor long-term outcome when subjected to ultra high humidity for extended periods of time. Even Keelbacks move between various microhabitats within their range, dry and sunny to damp and frog infested, as they choose and depending on need. Access to damp conditions may also be seasonal. Small heated (either by water or substrate) enclosures make managing humidity levels very difficult unless there is excellent ventilation, which may, in turn, affect temperature control.

Jamie


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## cris (Mar 12, 2018)

pythoninfinite said:


> Most reptiles have a very poor long-term outcome when subjected to ultra high humidity for extended periods of time. Even Keelbacks move between various microhabitats within their range, dry and sunny to damp and frog infested, as they choose and depending on need. Access to damp conditions may also be seasonal. Small heated (either by water or substrate) enclosures make managing humidity levels very difficult unless there is excellent ventilation, which may, in turn, affect temperature control.
> 
> Jamie



Yeah good point, I touched on this but I probably should have covered this a bit better. In combination with basking light/s plenty of ventilation is required. Heating the water would be generally be a bad idea, however heating dry areas with a heat cord or similar is not a problem IMO. I have never had a problem using fishtanks with full top ventilation.


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## Bluetongue1 (Mar 12, 2018)

@ShrimpKing. The only two snakes on the R1 list that are potentially suited to the environment of the proposed enclosure are the Common Tree snake _Dendrelaphis punctulatus_ & the Marsh snake _Hemiapsis signata_. Marsh snake are difficult to feed when small, given they normally eat lizards and frogs. A 50 cm specimen would require a minimum terrestrial area of 50 cm x 30cm according to the regs. So a CTS is your only realistic option. Being competence in aquarium management and experienced in turtle care, I reckon you’ll be fine with a CTS. You obviously understand researching a given animal in order to provide for its specific needs.

For the future, if you want a truly aquatic freshwater snake, then have a think about Macleay’s Water snake, as already mentioned. While its current name is _Pseudoferania polylepis_, as it has been reclassified, it is still listed as _Enhydris polylepis_). They are not commonly kept. Yet with the two I have seen in captivity, the owners both said they was no real difference to maintaining freshwater tropical fish. Just supply a dock or log for them to periodically crawl out on and bask if they want to do so. There is only one file snake on the lists, the Arafura (_Acrohcordus arafurae_), and it can get quite large (2m or more). The one I have seen in captivity died with no indication why, despite the huge tank it was in and the decades of successful reptile and turtle keeping experience of its owner.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 12, 2018)

And... if the snake thing doesn't work out, there's some pretty gnarly freshwater eels you could get instead. I've a mate who has a pair of freshwater Moray eels - _Gymnothorax polyuranodon_ from far north QLD. They are *wicked *looking.


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## Bluetongue1 (Mar 12, 2018)

Snapped said:


> What if the snake poops in the water? (I know mine do in their water bowl 90% of the time)....would that harm the fish or would the filtration take care of it?


 Hi Snapped, I realise this question was already answered in brief. Here is the explanation I offered to post, which is aimed at providing a broader perspective. I was about to bin it, then thought well someone might find it useful.

Poop consists essentially of solid wastes (indigestible materials) and various nitrogen wastes, collectively called urates.
A simple hang-on aquarium filter these days does the following…
*Physical Filtration:* A fibre pad removes suspended solids. Needs periodic rinsing.
*Biological Filtration: * Provides a large surface area for growth of two species of nitrifying bacteria. One converts ammonia (very highly toxic) to nitrites (a lot less toxic. The other converts nitrites to nitrates (only toxic if allowed to build up).
*Chemical Filtration: * Activated carbon removes active chemicals that may be present. Usually only really required when establishing a new tank.
*Water Circulation:* Moves oxygen rich water from the surface throughout the aquarium.

Periodic vacuuming gets rid of the detritus from poop and the water change involved in this removes built-up nitrates if present. Water changes can also be done on their own.
Growing plants will take up ammonia and nitrates.
The other main water chemistry parameters that are relevant and can measured and adjusted if need be, are: acidity/alkalinity (pH); general hardness (GH – essentially the amount of dissolved calcium and magnesium); carbonate hardness (KH – the amount of dissolved carbonates).


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## Snapped (Mar 12, 2018)

Thanks for that Bluetongue, a great explanation and easily understood. Wish I could of read that years ago when I had a freshwater tank with a single Oscar in it.
I remember the testing kit, glass tubes and all that. It seemed to be constant cleaning/water changes, for one fish it was a lot of poop. I commend anyone that has fish setups, it did my head in, haha. For me, it was more work than my cats and dogs!


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 12, 2018)

Snapped said:


> Thanks for that Bluetongue, a great explanation and easily understood. Wish I could of read that years ago when I had a freshwater tank with a single Oscar in it.
> I remember the testing kit, glass tubes and all that. It seemed to be constant cleaning/water changes, for one fish it was a lot of poop. I commend anyone that has fish setups, it did my head in, haha. For me, it was more work than my cats and dogs!


If you think fish are messy try havin an indoor aquarium with a dozen turtles in it.


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## Snapped (Mar 12, 2018)

Errr....nope, all good here hahaha.


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## msnmsn (Mar 18, 2018)

semi aquatic...Keelback/freshwater snake would probs be your only option, they stay relatively small too. dunno if they're on the R1, but they're definitely a more active snake. is there any specific reason it has to be semi-aquatic?


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