# Oenpelli Python may be on the market in our life times



## smeejason (May 26, 2011)

Just got told about this.. 

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## KingSirloin (May 26, 2011)

Several years away is good, should have the mortgage paid off by then.


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

Do the Aboriginal people of NT *own* the Oenpelli pythons? That makes me feel very much like a second class citizen in this country.


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## saximus (May 26, 2011)

Do you mind if I ask why people want them so badly? Is it just because we can't have them?


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## killimike (May 26, 2011)

saximus said:


> Do you mind if I ask why people want them so badly? Is it just because we can't have them?


 
Do people need another reason?  But seriously, no idea


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

saximus said:


> Do you mind if I ask why people want them so badly? Is it just because we can't have them?


 
Yes, that's the only reason. They are not spectacular looking snakes, difficult to keep and breed but they sure would bring good money.

IMO, the harvested snakes should stay in NT, in the hands of a person capable and qualified to do base-line research and publish a paper or two before any dispersal of CB progeny to other keepers.


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## smeejason (May 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> IMO, the harvested snakes should stay in the NT, in the hands of a person capable and qualified to do base-line research and publish a paper or two before any dispersal of CB progeny to other keepers.


Could not agree more but i think their value will just be to big an incentive to start selling early. 
I am just hoping i get to see one of these mythicol animals in the flesh oneday in someones collection. 
Be a long time before they will ever be in my price range and a lot longer before they are in my wife's price range and i doubt i can hide that much money from her...


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## Moreliavridis (May 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> IMO, the harvested snakes should stay in NT, in the hands of a person capable and qualified to do base-line research and publish a paper or two before any dispersal of CB progeny to other keepers.



I agree with you there michael.

it would be interesting to see them in the flesh. anyone have any ideas who would be the front runner for the collection? john wigel? maybe??


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

Gavin Bedford & Greg Miles I believe, both N Territorians.


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## -Katana- (May 26, 2011)

I just had to look up a picture on the net to know what they even looked like.

Geeze...they look like a giant version of a Spotted python.
Bit of a let down really.


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

Exactly, overgrown Children's. Apart from their rarity and challange of looking after them, I can't see much in them .... but, that's me.

http://picasaweb.google.com/tigerblade/OenpelliPythonInNawurlandjaKakadu#


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## Snakeluvver2 (May 26, 2011)

Superficially yes, behavior wise I very much doubt it


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## cactus2u (May 26, 2011)

smeejason said:


> Be a long time before they will ever be in my price range and a lot longer before they are in my wife's price range and i doubt i can hide that much money from her...



haha.. Is'nt that the truth. 
I agree Waterrat . Will keep those with spare cash getting one just to say I've got a snake that reportedly gets bigger than an Olive 
Somethings should stay off limits


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## Pythoninfinite (May 26, 2011)

> Be a long time before they will ever be in my price range and a lot longer before they are in my wife's price range and i doubt i can hide that much money from her...



I doubt that. RSPs have become run-of-the-mill snakes in a very few years, and they weren't even known to science thirty years ago. They have, like most reptiles, suffered a price plummet in the past 2 years. The Oenpelli will be the same, and like scrubbies, such a large snake will only be sold into a limited market.

The market for reptiles has changed massively in the past 2-3 years.

Jamie


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## FAY (May 26, 2011)

I do no know much about this animal.
Is it classed as 'endangered' in it's limited range or is nobody really sure ?


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## saximus (May 26, 2011)

According to that pdf, they are "vulnerable"


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## Moreliavridis (May 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Gavin Bedford & Greg Miles I believe, both N Territorians.



Bedford was my second guess!


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## PythonLegs (May 26, 2011)

There were genuine concerns within the last few years that the animal may have become extinct, so hearing they may be being bred privately is excellent news. Personally these are the top of my wishlist, considering the massive variation in colouration reported over the years.


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## Snakeluvver2 (May 26, 2011)

Extinct? or just hid to find being in a remote unaccessible habitat or both.


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## girdheinz (May 26, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> There were genuine concerns within the last few years that the animal may have become extinct, so hearing they may be being bred privately is excellent news. Personally these are the top of my wishlist, considering the massive variation in colouration reported over the years.



I find that amusing, i know quite a few who have found them it very accessible areas in recent years, without looking hard at all.


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## solar 17 (May 26, 2011)

cactus2u said:


> haha.. Is'nt that the truth.
> I agree Waterrat . Will keep those with spare cash getting one just to say I've got a snake that reportedly gets bigger than an Olive
> Somethings should stay off limits


l disagree totally on two points.. 1/ its points of view like this that has given us "no" tassie tigers and what about those with a deep passion for breeding reptiles or are they all going to be put in the money hungry breeders bin.....its people like snake ranch who have given us all a chance to look at the RSP and if they make a buck on the side..good on them
these faceless internet critics that have been in reptiles five minutes give me a rash with anybody that makes a few dollars out of reptiles if you listen to them the only ones that can make money out of reptiles are the chinese who are flooding the market with reptile accessories.....solar 17 [Baden]


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

The point is, this species is not another carpet or a scrubby. I know first hand from Peter what length he had to go to just to keep them feeding. Despite all efforts in NT, apart from Peter no one has bred them. For this reason alone, they should be in the hands of keepers who 1/ have a lot of experience, 2/ can provide 1st class facility (i.e. $$$) and 3/ who can invest the time and devotion such project would require. 
I don't believe the NT gov will allow more than two or three pairs to be taken from the wild and the document already stated that breeders will not be exported from NT. From my own experience of 40 + years, I can say with confidence that species do best in captivity when housed within their natural distribution range - it's hard to improve on mother nature, hence I hope they will stay in NT until there is a sufficient stock bred up for dispersal. A deep passion for breeding reptiles is not enough in this case. Just like John took a full responsibility for his RSP project, so must this project be undertaken ..... think about "conservation breeding", not what it's going to bring to the hobby.
Turn the flame-throwers on now, I am ready.


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## -Katana- (May 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> The point is, this species is not another carpet or a scrubby. I know first hand from Peter what length he had to go to just to keep them feeding. Despite all efforts in NT, apart from Peter no one has bred them. For this reason alone, they should be in the hands of keepers who 1/ have a lot of experience, 2/ can provide 1st class facility (i.e. $$$) and 3/ who can invest the time and devotion such project would require.
> I don't believe the NT gov will allow more than two or three pairs to be taken from the wild and the document already stated that breeders will not be exported from NT. From my own experience of 40 + years, I can say with confidence that species do best in captivity when housed within their natural distribution range - it's hard to improve on mother nature, hence I hope they will stay in NT until there is a sufficient stock bred up for dispersal. A deep passion for breeding reptiles is not enough in this case. Just like John took a full responsibility for his RSP project, so must this project be undertaken ..... think about "conservation breeding", not what it's going to bring to the hobby.
> Turn the flame-throwers on now, I am ready.



Gods you're game!
By my watch it isn't Shiraz O'clock yet...teensy bit early for a pre-war bracer.:lol:


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## DanN (May 26, 2011)

Well said Michael.


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## longqi (May 26, 2011)

In the future Conservation breeding will eventually become a very necessary and common practice with many more than just Oenpellis I think
While I totally agree with Micheals words regarding these I dont think the feeding problems with these will continue past CB3
They are very similar in looks to another python smaller python from Timor that had similar problems with the wild caught adults and CB1 hatchies


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

I agree, the feeding should not be a big problem to overcome. Actually, the location may have been the course of the various problems; Peter kept them in a very wet, upland environment on the Atherton Tableland, very, very different to the Oenpelli country climate. That supports my opinion that they should be (initially) kept and bred as close to their natural habitat as possible.


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## FusionMorelia (May 26, 2011)

their not exactly,hmmm how can i put this....
there pretty ugly..... they look like they have had serious acne scarring lol
but on topic, im with waterrat with this, dont rush it let the pro herpers have a good 10yrs+
with them b4 selling any hatchies off.


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## longqi (May 26, 2011)

One point about these is important too
Most will agree that they will have a limited but reasonable market so breeding for eventual hobbyists is very good news
How many are there slithering around Arnhem Land now??
Although cited as vulnerable there are plenty of reports from fairly sources about their continued presence in the less accessible areas?
They do seem to have virtually vanished from the open plains areas though
Has a study/head count etc been done recently??


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

Their population density is unknown, nothing is known about their reproductive biology (e.g. do they breed every year?) and nothing is known about their ecology. 
John Woinarski published paper on the drastic decrease of small mammals in the areas also inhabited by OPs. That rings alarm bells because these small mammals are most probably substantial part of the OP's diet. Add the cane toads and the picture of the whole ecosystem looks pretty grim.


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## FusionMorelia (May 26, 2011)

dont they take 10yrs to reach breeding age?


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

N.A.T.O said:


> dont they take 10yrs to reach breeding age?



Who said? Reference please.


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## FusionMorelia (May 26, 2011)

read it on another forum(dont want o link it here pm me if u want it)


> apparently it take them 10 years to reach maturity


i didnt know if its true thats why i asked here


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

The truth is, no one knows the truth but it's very unlikely. None of the other Aussie pythons take that long, why should this species?
Forums are not a good point of reference .... as we can see.


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## FusionMorelia (May 26, 2011)

i know Peter Krauss has kept them but apart from that all i go off is a bit of info here and a bit there and asking questions
and trying to establish whats true and whats "the thought is" info 
also it says 1st signs of sexual maturity documented in 83 the animal was 10yrs old at that time and female (p krauss, keeping n breeding aussie pythons)


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

I will ask Peter but I am almost certain that he meant "first signs of sexual activity". G. Gow had a pair of native GTPs that never reproduced. Does it meat they were sexually immature?


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## FusionMorelia (May 26, 2011)

mate im just saying what it says, i was told to get this book its the python bible, im not making any personal judgments here im just trying to clarify this info, i just quoted it from the book,i wouldn't have the foggiest idea if their immature ,frigid ,homosexual or just lazy thats why i said,"apparently"its 10yrs just wondered if this observation has changed or as you say worded wrong....
either way their rare and unusual,
personally im not really fussed on them but then again i haven't seen many pics, let alone one in person
so i cant say for sure if i even like them or not  i just hope the right people get them 1st 
and we see some serious study on them b4 anyone even thinks about what hatchies are worth


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## No-two (May 26, 2011)

People were thinking about what hatchies would be worth before they even tried to get permission to collect them.


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2011)

No-two said:


> People were thinking about what hatchies would be worth before they even tried to get permission to collect them.



You are right. People within the hobby but not the people applying for the permits. At the end of the day, the price of the hatchies will be a very important factor, considering the royalties payable to the indigenous mob, the NT gov and who knows who else will stick their hand out when the smell of the $ start to linger.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 26, 2011)

I have talked with Gavin Bedford a few years ago at that time he certainly was of the intention to bring them into captivity, I think he is the most likely to do it.


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## snakeluvver (May 26, 2011)

I think Oenpellis are pretty cool, good size and I like the thought of a massive childreni


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## turtle (May 27, 2011)

They also have the ability to change colours night/day like RSP's.
This is what I have read. Pretty cool I think. I also have read their temperament is like a childrens or spotted. A massive snake with the temperament of a puppy dog! Yeah I think I'll try one. I think these guys will be extremely popular just wuth a few of the qualities I've mentioned.. Can't wait..

Dan


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## Nighthawk (May 27, 2011)

I would *love* to at least see one in the flesh, that would be enough even if I don't get to own one. Personally I reckon pretty much every snake I've seen is beautiful. I agree about keeping them in the NT for a bit of captive research before making them available to the market however, and I can be patient. I'd rather get one... or two... when as much info as possible is available about species quirks, wants and needs are so that I can look after them properly.


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## discountreptile (May 27, 2011)

I think it is a must and with the growing population of almost certainly deadly canetoads, the juvenile population of oenpellis could suffer.
If they dont act soon there could be not enough numbers left to bring new blood into the captive population.
Prices dont matter in this instant when its saving a species.


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## Greeny06 (May 27, 2011)

I was fairly reliably informed that, (without naming names,) it could have been possible for these to have been in captivity years ago, except for a ******* contest between two well known Herpetologists which resulted in one getting the ****s that the other was being approved and resulted in a phone call to the "traditional owners" advising them how much they're worth, which resulted in everyone suddenly having traditional/spiritual connections to the animals (therefore increasing the price) and putting them out of reach, because, as Waterrat pointed out, not only do the locals have their hands out but so will the government. Be careful what you wish for people, just because certain people may get permits doesn't necessarily mean anybody except a very privileged few (read, rich) may get a look in. For some people it IS all about the money and the "prestige" that comes with having rare animals


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## Ozzie Python (May 27, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> considering the royalties payable to the indigenous mob, the NT gov and who knows who else will stick their hand out when the smell of the $ start to linger.


 
and i bet the indigenous mob will get absolute bugger all of it, regardless of what agreement is made. based on what i have heard in the past when working in the NT, the amount fo $ the national land council were meant to contribute/pay to the traditional land owners compared to what they got was an absolute joke.


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## Nagraj (May 27, 2011)

Greeny06 said:


> ........ which resulted in everyone suddenly having traditional/spiritual connections to the animals (therefore increasing the price) and putting them out of reach .......


 
Sounds like crap to me, if all the hurdles bar that one had been jumped I'm positive it would have been quickly dealt with by investors.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 27, 2011)

> I was fairly reliably informed that, (without naming names,) it could have been possible for these to have been in captivity years ago, except for a ******* contest between two well known Herpetologists which resulted in one getting the ****s that the other was being approved and resulted in a phone call to the "traditional owners" advising them how much they're worth, which resulted in everyone suddenly having traditional/spiritual connections to the animals (therefore increasing the price) and putting them out of reach, because, as Waterrat pointed out, not only do the locals have their hands out but so will the government. Be careful what you wish for people, just because certain people may get permits doesn't necessarily mean anybody except a very privileged few (read, rich) may get a look in. For some people it IS all about the money and the "prestige" that comes with having rare animals



As I hear a fairly major part of it is that some years ago one ended up at parliament house which resulted in scandal about traditional ownership and the government got so frightened they pretty much just said no to anyone touching them. Not saying your version of events is wrong only that there may be further parts to it.


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## FAY (May 27, 2011)

I am pretty sure they had one at the first WildExpo that was held at Darling Harbour. Not sure what happened to it though.


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 28, 2011)

Yeah Fay, 
TWP brought down a pair to display and as a result one of the animals came back in pretty bad shape and didnt live long after. The other animal is alive but is a fairly poor example, old, skinny and I think no eyes if I remember correct......

I had been told by a herp in the NT after a similar thread 6 months ago that a legitimate wild collection had already taken place about 12 months ago and there are already animals that have been distributed. Not entirely sure if this is true but apparently a freedom of info search with the NT gov will confirm......

There are also rumours of a couple of pairs of "off paper" Oenpelli's in Vic, apparently thriving and reproducing. But these probably are just that, rumours........

Either way, its exciting times if these are made available in the near future.....


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## Waterrat (May 28, 2011)

Barra, I doubt the collection has been already done. Gavin has been working on getting permits for years, once a permit has been issued but collection didn't take place because some problems concerning the dates and the indigenous mob (I forgot the details). Gavin made public announcement at the Ipswich Festival that he is very close to getting the green light to collect OPs. I am sure if there were any captives he would have known about it directly from the NT government.


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## Boidae (May 28, 2011)

If this goes through, this would make my life!!! I have wanted an Oenpelli for as long as I can remember!!!
Better start saving up, as I'd imagine they're not going to be cheap


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## Waterrat (May 28, 2011)

Not having a go at you at all but it may of interest to all of us - why did you always want an oenpelli python? Can you give us an extended reason? Have you seen one alive?


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## GeckPhotographer (May 28, 2011)

> Barra, I doubt the collection has been already done. Gavin has been working on getting permits for years, once a permit has been issued but collection didn't take place because some problems concerning the dates and the indigenous mob (I forgot the details). Gavin made public announcement at the Ipswich Festival that he is very close to getting the green light to collect OPs. I am sure if there were any captives he would have known about it directly from the NT government.



As Gavin told me he got permission from the indigenous land owners to collect some but the NT licensing people still did not want him to collect Oenpelli pythons from Arnhem land. At the time he had a permit to collect them but only if he could find them outside of a national park and outside of Arnhem land. There may have been another event where he got a license and dates or something were problematic as this was a couple years back.


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## Waterrat (May 28, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Hey Waterrat what if Gavin was the one who has collected the Oenpellies already? You say he would know about yeah he sure would if he got them, but does not necessarily mean others of us would. Just a thought. No, I don't thing so.
> 
> As Gavin told me he got permission from the indigenous land owners to collect some but the NT licensing people still did not want him to collect Oenpelli pythons from Arnhem land. At the time he had a permit to collect them but only if he could find them outside of a national park and outside of Arnhem land. There may have been another event where he got a license and dates or something were problematic as this was a couple years back.



You are right, I forgot the details.


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## waruikazi (May 28, 2011)

That may have happened but it is not the reason the last permit was renegged on. As far as i'm aware it did come down to a particular individual but he was not a herper.



Greeny06 said:


> I was fairly reliably informed that, (without naming names,) it could have been possible for these to have been in captivity years ago, except for a ******* contest between two well known Herpetologists which resulted in one getting the ****s that the other was being approved and resulted in a phone call to the "traditional owners" advising them how much they're worth, which resulted in everyone suddenly having traditional/spiritual connections to the animals (therefore increasing the price) and putting them out of reach, because, as Waterrat pointed out, not only do the locals have their hands out but so will the government. Be careful what you wish for people, just because certain people may get permits doesn't necessarily mean anybody except a very privileged few (read, rich) may get a look in. For some people it IS all about the money and the "prestige" that comes with having rare animals



I spoke to the curator of the TWP last year. That particular animal died of cancer (?? would have to look back over my journal) not long after it was taken down for that display. The remaining animal was collected as it had it's eyes pecked out by a Kookaburra.

It was probably me who told you that there was a fella who got permission to collect, i have since found out he was talking smack and i get the feeling that the bloke who claimed he had the permit was trying to persuade me to go and poach some without me knowing it lol. There has only ever been one permit to collect these animals so far, it was vetoed a day after it was issued. 

I'm quite confident we can beleive the rumours of the illegally held animals. 



BARRAMUNDI said:


> Yeah Fay,
> TWP brought down a pair to display and as a result one of the animals came back in pretty bad shape and didnt live long after. The other animal is alive but is a fairly poor example, old, skinny and I think no eyes if I remember correct......
> 
> I had been told by a herp in the NT after a similar thread 6 months ago that a legitimate wild collection had already taken place about 12 months ago and there are already animals that have been distributed. Not entirely sure if this is true but apparently a freedom of info search with the NT gov will confirm......
> ...



He has not collected anything yet. I would encourage everyone to be careful about making any hearsay public on any forum. By all means let the discussion flow but remember the people who count in this story do read this forum and others. Jealousy is rife in our hobby and if allowed to it will hold this chapter up.



GeckPhotographer said:


> Hey Waterrat what if Gavin was the one who has collected the Oenpellies already? You say he would know about yeah he sure would if he got them, but does not necessarily mean others of us would. Just a thought.
> 
> As Gavin told me he got permission from the indigenous land owners to collect some but the NT licensing people still did not want him to collect Oenpelli pythons from Arnhem land. At the time he had a permit to collect them but only if he could find them outside of a national park and outside of Arnhem land. There may have been another event where he got a license and dates or something were problematic as this was a couple years back.



Just remember there is a whole lot more to this story than just getting a permit to collect. 

I've been looking for this animal for 18 months now. Nearly every single night in known locations and times. I have had one childrens that fooled me and one animal that may or may not have been what i was looking for which disappeared before i got to it after i spotted it on a road. 

As many permits as we want can be issued, but if we can't find any then none of this matters.


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## Naga_Kanya (May 28, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Not having a go at you at all but it may of interest to all of us - why did you always want an oenpelli python? Can you give us an extended reason? Have you seen one alive?



They've been on my theoretical wish list for ages, since seeing them in Rick Shine's book, then doing a bit more research online. I think they're really, really beautiful, and the photos of that night-time colour change (due, I think, to the sheen on their scales) kinda captivated me. I, like other, also like the idea of a big python that's potentially nicer to handle than a scrubby. I wouldn't even dream of touching one until they'd been documented in captivity for a fairly long time, and I was confident enough was known about them that I could give it a good, healthy, long-term home. I'm absolutely with the others who have said they should be husbanded in NT for years before any form of captive distribution to expert keepers interstate. I'd hate to see the species suffer simply because people wanted to make a quick buck. Considering their uniqueness, it would be a shame to see them being mucked about with to breed hybrids, too.


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## waruikazi (May 28, 2011)

Naga i recon you would love what's referred to as the baby one of these snakes. It's an incredibly slender childrens and goes through some pretty mad colour changes.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 28, 2011)

> He has not collected anything yet. I would encourage everyone to be careful about making any hearsay public on any forum. By all means let the discussion flow but remember the people who count in this story do read this forum and others. Jealousy is rife in our hobby and if allowed to it will hold this chapter up.



I did not say he had collected just that if a collection had happened it might have been him. In terms of hearsay I was just writing what he had said to me a couple years back in terms of clarifying if that was the situation Waterrat was talking about. It is not exactly private knowledge as Gavin openly tells people he plans to bring them into captivity. 

I know there is more than just getting the permit and that finding them is extremely hard. 

I doubt I would ever want to keep one of these but they are indeed high on my list to see in the wild just because they are such an illusive and poorly known snake.


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## stockhorse (May 28, 2011)

I think this discussion at this point is purely hypothetical as the claim for who are the TO is under dispute.If one party gives approval the other will challenge it and it will be suspended. In maybe another 2-3 years the requirments will be changed and the TO taken out of the equation and some progress may result. 
Until then those breeding them will have to wait. Also from opinions expressed here as to thier desireability if people are logical and refuse to pay more than $500 a hatchie then they won't be un affordable to whoever wants one.Breeders with smarts will push the vunerable side of things and get Govt grants to breed and make thier money that way.(more money from the govt than selling hatchies)


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## waruikazi (May 28, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> I did not say he had collected just that if a collection had happened it might have been him. In terms of hearsay I was just writing what he had said to me a couple years back in terms of clarifying if that was the situation Waterrat was talking about. It is not exactly private knowledge as Gavin openly tells people he plans to bring them into captivity.
> 
> I know there is more than just getting the permit and that finding them is extremely hard.
> 
> I doubt I would ever want to keep one of these but they are indeed high on my list to see in the wild just because they are such an illusive and poorly known snake.



Sorry mate that comment wasn't just aimed at you and i'm sorry if it came off as confrontational. Gavin doesn't make any secret that he is working on a project and collecting some is part of it, but that is his story to tell and no one elses. I personally think it is innapropriate to be asking questions to third parties on a public forum mainly for two reasons. If you want genuine answers go straight to the source, most of the people talking in this thread know Gavin (including you by the sounds) just call him. He is no more than an aquaintane to me but he is the kind of bloke that will take the time to answer your call. Secondly, loose lips sink ships. Anyone involved in a project like this is already up against it, rumours, chinese whispers and jealousy could end this project. Ask the questions but do it privately or go to the source. 

I'm not too keen on keeping them either, but i'm loving the detective work hunting them down.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 28, 2011)

> Sorry mate that comment wasn't just aimed at you and i'm sorry if it came off as confrontational. Gavin doesn't make any secret that he is working on a project and collecting some is part of it, but that is his story to tell and no one elses. I personally think it is innapropriate to be asking questions to third parties on a public forum mainly for two reasons. If you want genuine answers go straight to the source, most of the people talking in this thread know Gavin (including you by the sounds) just call him. He is no more than an aquaintane to me but he is the kind of bloke that will take the time to answer your call. Secondly, loose lips sink ships. Anyone involved in a project like this is already up against it, rumours, chinese whispers and jealousy could end this project. Ask the questions but do it privately or go to the source.



I also am no more than an acquaintance really but my mum knows him well I think from Uni. If I wanted real info on where the progress stands I suppose I would ring him, and that information he gave me I would leave for him to give to others. The reason I am saying what he said to me is because it is several (nearly3) years old but is still pertinent to hurdles and obstacles being faced in bringing them into captivity. Regardless I am not too interested in Oenpellies and not really asking questions just discussing. 
It was not too confrontational just justifying my position. Sorry if I seemed to be confronting in that reply also. 

Hopefully when I finish school I will have some time free and might go up to the NT and see if I am super lucky enough to see this snake.


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## Naga_Kanya (May 28, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Naga i recon you would love what's referred to as the baby one of these snakes. It's an incredibly slender childrens and goes through some pretty mad colour changes.



Sounds very cool. I'm guessing you're talking about an antaresia variety? Which one? I only know of the standard four. I've heard the RSP changes colour a little, but that's a Morelia, isn't it? Would love to know more.


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## waruikazi (May 28, 2011)

Yeah they are just a childreni but because of th isolated habitat they are in they look a little different. Here's a couple, they change colour in different light cycles, but alot of pythons do so it isn't all that special really.








this one made me look a fool.


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## Naga_Kanya (May 28, 2011)

Oooh, nifty! That silvery colour's cool. Which area do they come from? Now if we just blow them up to 4m long, they'll be perfect!


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## waruikazi (May 29, 2011)

Naga_Kanya said:


> Oooh, nifty! That silvery colour's cool. Which area do they come from? Now if we just blow them up to 4m long, they'll be perfect!



Exact same area, West Arnhem escarpment country.


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## longirostris (May 30, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Sorry mate that comment wasn't just aimed at you and i'm sorry if it came off as confrontational. Gavin doesn't make any secret that he is working on a project and collecting some is part of it, but that is his story to tell and no one elses. I personally think it is innapropriate to be asking questions to third parties on a public forum mainly for two reasons. If you want genuine answers go straight to the source, most of the people talking in this thread know Gavin (including you by the sounds) just call him. He is no more than an aquaintane to me but he is the kind of bloke that will take the time to answer your call. Secondly, loose lips sink ships. Anyone involved in a project like this is already up against it, rumours, chinese whispers and jealousy could end this project. Ask the questions but do it privately or go to the source.
> 
> I'm not too keen on keeping them either, but i'm loving the detective work hunting them down.



Couldn't agree more with your comments Waruikazi, Gavin, for my part, actually is a friend of mine and I know that he does not appreciate his name being bandied about on these forums, particularly on speculative topics such as this. I have not spoken to him about this thread, but I did speak to him recently about another thread where his name was bandied about in a speculative manner (from memory it was also relating to the collection of OP's) and he was less then impressed. In fact he was pretty annoyed, as the comment he made was expected to be between himself and the individual who then posted up his comment some time later.


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## waruikazi (May 30, 2011)

Before the topic of ownership is passed over i want to make a few points. 

If you own some land, wether you bought it or it was left to you by your family, you have an undeniable right to that land and the resources on it. If someone wants wants to come along and use your land for farming, mining, tourism or whatever then that party has a moral and legal obligation to compensate you for that use. 

Aboriginal people own that land, the sense of ownership is different to the ownership non-indigenous people feel but they own it none-the-less. The animals on their land are a resource. If we want them we need to pay for them. Indigenous people are not the only people who ask for this payment, the QLD Gov requires payment for animals removed from the wild among others.

The spiritual connection that the locals have with all the animals is real, it's not something they make up to try and swindle money out of people (the NLC yes but not local mob). If you are religious you could compare the feeling to a patron saint, Jesus, Muhammod etc.


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## serpenttongue (May 30, 2011)

N.A.T.O said:


> their not exactly,hmmm how can i put this....
> there pretty ugly..... they look like they have had serious acne scarring lol
> .


 
I find them to be absolutely stunning . Very lean and slender, long heads, big eyes, and they are able to lighten their colour at night (like the RSP). I bet a freshly shed specimen would look awesome. Magnificent beasts, but I wouldn't keep one.


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## Waterrat (May 30, 2011)

Gordo, I agree with your comments - in principle, but this is not a case of mining, grazing or urban development. We are talking about taking maybe 4 snakes for the purpose of captive breeding which may one day save the species from extinction. I am not talking about OP in pet keeper's possession watching TV with OP on their lap. I am talking about "conservation breeding" as proposed by the two people you know and many of us support.
Surely, the indigenous people wouldn't object to that and just like we, non-indigenous Australians (through our governments) are giving the Aboriginal people generously, I mean millions and millions, they could too show little bit of generosity, especially if it's in the interest of the survival of one of "their" species. 
We all have different views on this - this is mine.


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## waruikazi (May 30, 2011)

Either way it is still a resource. 'Conservation breeding' can only be a part of the project, these animals will make it onto the pet trade and there will be some people to make money off them and it is only right that the traditional owners who have allowed this to happen be among beneficiaries. If the animals were staying within zoos and wildlife parks and not ever coming into pet trade (even then they would have a tourism $$$ value) i would concede your point.

Luckily, in my view, all of the major parties involved hold the same view as i do. 



Waterrat said:


> Gordo, I agree with you comments - in principle but this is not a case of mining, grazing or urban development. We are talking about taking maybe 4 snakes for the purpose of captive breeding which may one day save the species from extinction. I am not talking about OP in pet keeper's possession, I am talking about "conservation breeding" as proposed by the two people you know and supported by many.
> Surely, the indigenous people wouldn't object to that and just like we, non-indigenous mob (our governments) are giving the Aboriginial people generously, I say millions and millions, they could too show little bit of generosity, especially if it's in the interest of the survival of one of "their" species.
> We all have different views on this - this is mine.


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## Waterrat (May 30, 2011)

I worked and involuntarily paid taxes all my life. My salary was my resource yet the government took a slice of it and gave it to the indigenous people, without my consent or without my knowledge. I earned that money, I owned the money - it was my resource. Ambiguity ? However, I don't have any problem with it, lets help those in need .... but lets not make it a one way street.
I could argue this topic as vigorously as I do creationism, but lets leave it here. Peace man.


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## waruikazi (May 30, 2011)

Oh boy that's a big carrot you dangle in front of me! 

Righto, in the interest of this thread and world peace i'll leave it after this comment, our taxes go to everyone, not just blackfellas!

Peace!



Waterrat said:


> I worked and involuntarily paid taxes all my life. My salary was my resource yet the government took a slice of it and gave it to the indigenous people, without my consent or without my knowledge. I earned that money, I owned the money - it was my resource. Ambiguity ? However, I don't have any problem with it, lets help those in need .... but lets not make it a one way street.
> I could argue this topic as vigorously as I do creationism, but lets leave it here. Peace man.


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## killimike (May 30, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> our taxes go to everyone, not just blackfellas!



... including to creationists!  I love it. Indigenous issues always bring out you two guys. I'm just looking for kawasakirider now actually...

Back to the OP, I hope that they are able to be established in a captive breeding program.


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## saximus (May 30, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I could argue this topic as vigorously as I do creationism...


 For or against?


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## Waterrat (May 30, 2011)

Gordo, do you see it possible / feasible / desirable / appropriate for the Aboriginal people living within the Oenpelli python's distribution range to establish a breeding program themselves? I think it would be marvelous a way to resolve the situation. No permits required, collection done on their doorstep, intimate knowledge of the species and its ecology, government grant to set up the facility ....... what else is needed? They could then sell the offspring to us reptile keepers, make good profits and pay no tax on it. Win win situation, everybody should be happy.


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## saximus (May 30, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Gordo, do you see it possible / feasible / desirable / appropriate for the Aboriginal people living within the Oenpelli python's distribution range to establish a breeding program themselves? I think it would be marvelous a way to resolve the situation. No permits required, collection done on their doorstep, intimate knowledge of the species and its ecology, government grant to set up the facility ....... what else is needed? They could then sell the offspring to us reptile keepers, make good profits and pay no tax on it. Win win situation, everybody should be happy.


 If they're as difficult as you say, wouldn't this kind of thing be infeasible for anyone other than herpetologists who understands specific needs?


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## waruikazi (May 30, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Gordo, do you see it possible / feasible / desirable / appropriate for the Aboriginal people living within the Oenpelli python's distribution range to establish a breeding program themselves? I think it would be marvelous a way to resolve the situation. No permits required, collection done on their doorstep, intimate knowledge of the species and its ecology, government grant to set up the facility ....... what else is needed? They could then sell the offspring to us reptile keepers, make good profits and pay no tax on it. Win win situation, everybody should be happy.



Wow messy question, i'll try and answer it without getting myself into trouble. In my limited experience with the Indig cultures out here this is what i think.

Possible, Yes.
Desireable, Yes.
Appropriate, Yes... kinda.
Feasible... probably not. 

I was going to make a big post about how many and the way the diff clans/language groups etc etc interact with each other and why it probably wouldn't work. But my understanding is still pretty limited so i wont. 

I don't think the infrastructure, skills and the 'business' attitudes in the communities are mature enough yet. What i mean by that is, the time and effort and money required to get something like this up and running is better spent on more important things. That isn't a bad thing and i don't mean that in a derogatory way. Look at it like this, most Indigenous remote communites haven't yet developed to a stage where they can independantly run their own simple essential services, like a food store. They are getting there but they aren't there yet. 

I hope no one reads that post as being racist or uses it to fuel racist attitudes. Unless you have lived out in these communities for significant ammounts of time you can't and won't understand the situation properly.

I also think it would encourage paoching even more than now. Why wait 5 years caring for an animal that may not ever reproduce for you when you could just go and catch one. 

Not that poaching isn't happening now. The locals know how much they are worth and they know who to sell them to.


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## Naga_Kanya (Jun 2, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Exact same area, West Arnhem escarpment country.



Okay ,that's really cool. Thank you. I wonder what it is about the area that leads to that particular reaction of the scales? It looks to my uneducated eye as though there's almost a coating on them ,a little like you get on grapes to give them that silvery appearance, and it's that which reacts to the light. I'm possibly/probably wrong, but it seems that it's an environmental quirk of some sort. I'd be really interested to know what it is about the Oenpelli/those Childreni that's different about their physiology.


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## waruikazi (Jun 3, 2011)

Naga_Kanya said:


> Okay ,that's really cool. Thank you. I wonder what it is about the area that leads to that particular reaction of the scales? It looks to my uneducated eye as though there's almost a coating on them ,a little like you get on grapes to give them that silvery appearance, and it's that which reacts to the light. I'm possibly/probably wrong, but it seems that it's an environmental quirk of some sort. I'd be really interested to know what it is about the Oenpelli/those Childreni that's different about their physiology.



The colour change isn't restricted to these guys. I've seen colour change in carpets, other locality childrens change and RSP do too. It's cool, but nothing special.


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## hugsta (Jun 3, 2011)

> People were thinking about what hatchies would be worth before they even tried to get permission to collect them.





Waterrat said:


> You are right. People within the hobby but not the people applying for the permits. At the end of the day, the price of the hatchies will be a very important factor, considering the royalties payable to the indigenous mob, the NT gov and who knows who else will stick their hand out when the smell of the $ start to linger.


 
What?? Are you serious, you think the only people that are thinking about the cost of the hatchies are the hobbiests and not those applying for the permits. What a load of crap. Those that are able to and have the means to apply for these animals are in to also make their fortunes as they have done with previous animals brought into the market. It will be no different to these if they get them and that goes for either of the two major parties that have the chance to collect and breed them.



waruikazi said:


> The colour change isn't restricted to these guys. I've seen colour change in carpets, other locality childrens change and RSP do too. It's cool, but nothing special.



Common Gordo, cool, but nothing special....geez. You miss the whole point. You sell them at first as Oenpelli's and then when then market dies down you mysteriously breed a Ghost Oenpelli that changes colour and you watch people go nuts for this new 'special' morph, it is just amazing what people will do when you bullllcraaap the pants off them with a new fandangled so called morph.....


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## waruikazi (Jun 3, 2011)

Oh man the money. 

Money is the bain of this hobby!


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## Waterrat (Jun 3, 2011)

hugsta said:


> What?? Are you serious, you think the only people that are thinking about the cost of the hatchies are the hobbiests and not those applying for the permits. What a load of crap. Those that are able to and have the means to apply for these animals are in to also make their fortunes as they have done with previous animals brought into the market. It will be no different to these if they get them and that goes for either of the two major parties that have the chance to collect and breed them.
> 
> 
> 
> Common Gordo, cool, but nothing special....geez. You miss the whole point. You sell them at first as Oenpelli's and then when then market dies down you mysteriously breed a Ghost Oenpelli that changes colour and you watch people go nuts for this new 'special' morph, it is just amazing what people will do when you bullllcraaap the pants off them with a new fandangled so called morph.....



Gee weez :?


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## waruikazi (Jun 3, 2011)

hugsta said:


> What?? Are you serious, you think the only people that are thinking about the cost of the hatchies are the hobbiests and not those applying for the permits. What a load of crap. Those that are able to and have the means to apply for these animals are in to also make their fortunes as they have done with previous animals brought into the market. It will be no different to these if they get them and that goes for either of the two major parties that have the chance to collect and breed them.
> 
> 
> 
> Common Gordo, cool, but nothing special....geez. You miss the whole point. You sell them at first as Oenpelli's and then when then market dies down you mysteriously breed a Ghost Oenpelli that changes colour and you watch people go nuts for this new 'special' morph, it is just amazing what people will do when you bullllcraaap the pants off them with a new fandangled so called morph.....



Actually i think the people applying for permits first thoughts are finding and researching this species and how much it will cost to do that.

Just to put this into perspective think about Greg Miles' pig nose turtle project. I don't know how much it cost him to do his research, all his feild trips and collection. But i have seen his setup and i can tell you it would have easily cost well into the tens, maybe in the hundreds of thousands. All just to get them happy enough to breed. It's not a species that will ever be commonly kept (i think these giant snakes will probably be the same) yet he put the effort and money in. He sells hatchies for $500 odd bucks.

Maybe my head is clouded by my personal bias but i don't think the money is the first, second or third thing on the minds of those trying to bring them into captivity.


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## Waterrat (Jun 3, 2011)

Ditto.


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## hugsta (Jun 3, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Actually i think the people applying for permits first thoughts are finding and researching this species and how much it will cost to do that.
> 
> Just to put this into perspective think about Greg Miles' pig nose turtle project. I don't know how much it cost him to do his research, all his feild trips and collection. But i have seen his setup and i can tell you it would have easily cost well into the tens, maybe in the hundreds of thousands. All just to get them happy enough to breed. It's not a species that will ever be commonly kept (i think these giant snakes will probably be the same) yet he put the effort and money in. He sells hatchies for $500 odd bucks.
> 
> Maybe my head is clouded by my personal bias but i don't think the money is the first, second or third thing on the minds of those trying to bring them into captivity.


 
I agree that there is a level a personal satisfaction involved from bringing a new species into captivity and breeding/researching them, something I am sure, many of us would like to do. But lets be honest, they will not be sold for chicken feed just like roughies, albino olives, albino darwins and V.gluertii weren't. I don't have a problem with this and good luck to them, I hope they do make into captivity. It will be interesting see how little they think of the money then...!!!


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## Waterrat (Jun 3, 2011)

Can I make 2 points?

1/ The purpose of this project may not be "to bring the species into the hobby" it's to ensure its survival should it be under a threat in the wild. Only excess progeny should be dispersed to other keepers. It least that's how I would like to see the priorities sorted.

2/ Would you really like to see them sold for a chicken feed? Why?


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## greeny1 (Jun 3, 2011)

Let the money earners in the hobby stick to their morphs and albinos and lets see this species kept by professionals who are devoted and committed to this project.


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## GeckPhotographer (Jun 3, 2011)

The proffesionals need to earn money too. Or can they just live off nothing?


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## Waterrat (Jun 3, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> The proffesionals need to earn money too. Or can they just live off nothing?



This kind of logic will get you into trouble on APS. 95% hobbyists think reptiles should be bred purely for the love of it and sold for chicken feed. Trust me.


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## thefridge71 (Jun 3, 2011)

saximus said:


> For or against?


 
Massive bait haha


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## killimike (Jun 3, 2011)

greeny1 said:


> Let the money earners in the hobby stick to their morphs and albinos and lets see this species kept by professionals who are devoted and committed to this project.



Sorry, how do you do something professionally without earning money by doing it?


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## Elapidae1 (Jun 3, 2011)

LOL The offspring will fetch what the market demands, pure and simple. The people who put in the hard yards deserve the greater reward.


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## Waterrat (Jun 3, 2011)

You know what gets me, come believers think only about investment into breeding program in terms of cages, food, electricity, etc., they have no idea about the time involved in pushing through the bureaucracy and the skills required to succeed. How long did it take for John to get the permits to collect RSP? I would hate to see it translated into hours and hourly rate of a professional of his caliber. The knock-backs, frustrations, attending useless meetings, taking one step forward, two steps back - isn't that worth something? It's very easy for someone on dole spending days at the keyboard without a clue what's involved to be critical of those making money out of reptile breeding. This last comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular but I am sure some will identify themselves with the idol.


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## GeckPhotographer (Jun 3, 2011)

> You know what gets me, come believers think only about investment into breeding program in terms of cages, food, electricity, etc., they have no idea about the time involved in pushing through the bureaucracy and the skills required to succeed. How long did it take for John to get the permits to collect RSP? I would hate to see it translated into hours and hourly rate of a professional of his caliber. The knock-backs, frustrations, attending useless meetings, taking one step forward, two steps back - isn't that worth something? It's very easy for someone on dole spending days at the keyboard without a clue what's involved to be critical of those making money out of reptile breeding. This last comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular but I am sure some will identify themselves with the idol.



Not to mention the money it can cost in getting permits (If you want to collect an animal that the bureaucracy 'owns' in the wild they are sure as hell gonna want you to pay for it), the cost of traveling into some of these remote places. 
And on the John example just how far the Kimberly really is for him to travel so many times to get them. 

I agree with you totally. 

The price these things sell for when they first hit the market is not only warranted but usually less than they are really worth. I doubt people really start making money off these until they get into the third or fourth breeding season when it is only the costs of the captive breeding setup going into it. (Exceptions to wild caught morphs such as albinos of species that are already widely kept easily in captivity, this takes a lot of the hassle out of the learning to understand the animal I am sure.)​


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## Waterrat (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't know about NT or other states but the DERM (Qld) changes "conservation value" for species taken from the wild for commercial purposes. The conservation value of protected wildlife is an expression in monetary terms of the State's conservation concern for the wildlife. For "vulnerable" species, it's whopping $8,453.-


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## greeny1 (Jun 3, 2011)

Yes I understand that, they deserve whatever money they get out of it though. I mean breeders who are simply in it to make a quick dollar.


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## GeckPhotographer (Jun 3, 2011)

> I don't know about NT or other states but the DERM (Qld) changes "conservation value" for species taken from the wild for commercial purposes. The conservation value of protected wildlife is an expression in monetary terms of the State's conservation concern for the wildlife. For "vulnerable" species, it's whopping $8,453.-



Whats the max fine for illegally taking the same animal?


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## andysnakes (Jun 3, 2011)

what happened to liasis freak ? i was really interested in why he has wanted one for as long as he can rememeber? obviously not that long!


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## Darlyn (Jun 3, 2011)

I feel anyone going into this project to make money would be a fool.
First of all there are not that many people living in the surrounding area with the expertise to take on this project. If you had to relocate to live in the same habitat ($)
Procuring the correct food, don't they feed on black walleroos located in the Gunbalunya surrounds? Time and effort to get them feeding right. No gaurantee on breeding times or success. Don't know how it will work yet but doesn't sound like a get rich quick scheme to me.


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## hugsta (Jun 4, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Can I make 2 points?
> 
> 1/ The purpose of this project may not be "to bring the species into the hobby" it's to ensure its survival should it be under a threat in the wild. Only excess progeny should be dispersed to other keepers. It least that's how I would like to see the priorities sorted.
> 
> 2/ Would you really like to see them sold for a chicken feed? Why?


 
1/ Agree, as I stated, I would love to see these make it into captivity for conservation and for private hobbyests to enjoy.

2/ Never said I would like them to be sold for chicken feed, in fact I said the opposite. However, it was you who said they would not be thinking of the money. Now suddenly you are saying they deserve to earn the high dollars they will command when they first come available..!!

Personally I think it is fantastic that these animals may become available to the hobby, just like the other species I have previously mentioned. Yes, the professionals do need to earn money as well, so in saying that they are not thinking of the dollars, like I said, is rubbish. Any professional would have to calculate their time and efforts etc and the costs to way up whether or not this is a right move or not. Nobody does anything for free, after all we can't live off nothing. Surely they would be thinking of their ROI for all their efforts.


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## Waterrat (Jun 4, 2011)

I didn't mean "professionals" as in people breeding snakes for living, I meant professional herpetologists, e.g. Gavin.


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## hugsta (Jun 4, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I didn't mean "professionals" as in people breeding snakes for living, I meant professional herpetologists, e.g. Gavin.


 
Yes, I figured you meant that.


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## waruikazi (Jun 4, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> I feel anyone going into this project to make money would be a fool.
> First of all there are not that many people living in the surrounding area with the expertise to take on this project. If you had to relocate to live in the same habitat ($)
> Procuring the correct food, don't they feed on black walleroos located in the Gunbalunya surrounds? Time and effort to get them feeding right. No gaurantee on breeding times or success. Don't know how it will work yet but doesn't sound like a get rich quick scheme to me.



Nah they get into bats, birds and other small stuff.


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