# Hero dog takes down snake



## butterfly33 (Sep 28, 2009)

*Published On:* 9-28-2009
*Source:* The Daily Examiner

Six-year-old Staffordshire terrier George is the hero of the Doyle household at Pillar Valley. George was outside with owner Barbara Doyle on the family's 1.8 hectare property on Friday afternoon when he took on and killed a 1.7-metre eastern brown snake.

The snake was only centimetres from Barbara when the fearless dog intervened. Barbara said she was working in the yard about mid-afternoon, tying up a tree that had been blown down.

“George raced behind me and I heard him make a crazy noise,” she said.

“When I turned around he had grabbed the snake and whipped it into the air.

“When it landed he was onto it again and whipped it up again and didn't stop until the snake wasn't moving.”

While emphasising the family doesn't condone the killing of snakes and regularly re-homes snakes that make their way onto the property, Barbara said George received special treatment after protecting his owner.

Eastern browns are the second most venomous snake in the world and potentially highly aggressive.

*Go to Original Article*


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## Serpentes (Sep 28, 2009)

"Savage dog fatally mutilates protected wildlife as it attempts escape."

Stupid dog, stupid owner.


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## -Matt- (Sep 28, 2009)

What a joke


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## dragonboi_92 (Sep 28, 2009)

I always hear stories like this on the news or the Internet most of them are exaggerated saying the snake was a centimetre behind them when it was probably a few metres away and they were just scared


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## JasonL (Sep 28, 2009)

Serpentes said:


> "Savage dog fatally mutilates protected wildlife as it attempts escape."
> 
> Stupid dog, stupid owner.



mmm, not a stupid dog, just doing what comes naturally


*Stupid Media, Stupid Public Perceptions


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## Lewy (Sep 28, 2009)

JasonL said:


> mmm, not a stupid dog, just doing what comes naturally
> 
> 
> *Stupid Media, Stupid Public Perceptions


 


Totally agree with you on this Jason


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## redbellybite (Sep 28, 2009)

Wonder what the outcome would have been had the dog died ....cause the dog wouldve known it was an eastern brown now ....it wouldnt have even made media at all had it been a green tree snake ...media hogwash over dramatised by humans misconception of an animal simply crossing pathways at the wrong time ....very sad another useless killing


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Sep 28, 2009)

Lewy said:


> Totally agree with you on this Jason


Me to, the dog may well have been just protecting the owner.
Who knows what to believe when its in a paper like this.


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## brigo (Sep 28, 2009)

Dog did wat it would do naturally i guess, protecting owner or not, im sure al;ot of dogs would go for a snake..


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## DanTheMan (Sep 28, 2009)

Now all the dogs in Australia are going to read this and think it's good to kill snakes as it makes you a hero!

Hero dog? I really HATE the media with a passion, it was doing what is natural for a dog, it didn't have the intention on saving anyone, just killing. What dogs do best.


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## shamous1 (Sep 28, 2009)

*Hero dog?*

I agree with Jason.

I also believe that dogs have the instinct to know and percieve what is a real and present danger and the dog would have acted accordingly. Sure the owner may have been further away than written but I have no doubt in my mind that the dog would be protecting it's owner.

Dan the man, have you never heard of stories where dog's have jumped into swimming pools of rivers and dragged people out??? It does happen.


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Sep 28, 2009)

If a snake was a centermeter behind you, how could a fully grown staffie stand between you and the snake?


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## Serpentes (Sep 28, 2009)

Why is the dog _stupid_ for killing a snake? Because I'd hate to reply "Oh look, that _smart_ dog just killed a snake."

As for any implication of altruism on the dogs behalf, as alluded to previously (and I would retract my above statement should this be proven true) it's a smart dog who knows their elapid identification.


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## redbellybite (Sep 28, 2009)

Serpentes said:


> Why is the dog _stupid_ for killing a snake? Because I'd hate to reply "Oh look, that _smart_ dog just killed a snake."
> 
> As for any implication of altruism on the dogs behalf, as alluded to previously (and I would retract my above statement should this be proven true) it's a smart dog who knows their elapid identification.


 I am not blaming the dog ....I just hate the media hype that goes along with it ..the problem is and I know people that do encourage their dogs to be snake killers and by reading this crap only confirms it, in their small heads that its a good thing to encourage .....as I said the very sad thing is ,dogs die ,snakes die and sad still is the fact they cant tell between a potential threat and simply a harmless species ...


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## reptilemanor (Sep 28, 2009)

I am a wildlife carer and constantly caring for reptiles that peoples pets have attacked. I'm also constantly getting calls from people wanting snakes relocated from their back yard (sometimes on acerage) I wish the media would use it's power to educate people on snakes natural habitat which includes backyards. 
I would much rather a snake than a rat or mouse on my property.
The snake wouldn't have deliberately gotten that close to the lady, it was probably tying to get away from the dog.
The only time I willingly relocate a snake is when it is in someones house, and then it's to protect the snake, not the people.
I understand their fear, but a person is more likely to be attacked by a dog than bitten by a snake, but no-ones afraid of walking up to a stray dog and patting it. 
I'm so glad to be part of a forum that feels the same way I do about reptiles.


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## DanTheMan (Sep 28, 2009)

shamous1 said:


> I agree with Jason.
> 
> I also believe that dogs have the instinct to know and percieve what is a real and present danger and the dog would have acted accordingly. Sure the owner may have been further away than written but I have no doubt in my mind that the dog would be protecting it's owner.
> 
> Dan the man, have you never heard of stories where dog's have jumped into swimming pools of rivers and dragged people out??? It does happen.




I know dogs quite often save or at least try to save their owners, but I don't really believe that dogs know this funny looking long thin thing has venom that would harm us (not domesticated dogs any way, unsure about dingos etc). It moves so it wants to kill it. Yet I maybe wrong, not saying its a fact, just what I think.


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## JasonL (Sep 28, 2009)

Some dogs certainly know that "snakes" are venomous and some don't have a clue. "Dogs" arn't all on the same wave length... My current dog just want to be friends with everything, my last dog just wanted to kill everything....and she was damb good at it.


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## Serpentes (Sep 28, 2009)

That's funny, same here. Old dog who finds snakes because I ask her to and just cos they're interesting and familiar to her, vs. my young dog who finds snakes because they're different and he wants to kill them. With a bit of training the young one has learnt to leave snakes alone but growls and alerts me to snakes in the bush (yes, and in the house in their cages sometimes ). But last week up north he growled out (so to speak, ahem) a red belly, a scrubby and a whip snake, and a brown tree snake slough.


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## Freemason2250 (Sep 28, 2009)

Hope a python gets the scruffy little shoe buffer:lol:


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## JasonL (Sep 28, 2009)

With my last dog, I had her locked up indoors one day as I think people were coming over to buy something and she would of killed them, I left her locked up for a few hours, then RBB came out from under the house and basked on the lawn, I chased it off then let the dog out, she ran out and went straight to the water bowl for a drink, caught a wiff of "something" and flew back in a flash, she would creep forward and jump back, it led her under the house and out into the yard where the snake was, she was extremely skittish and nervous, it was odd behaviour from her, she 100% knew it was a dangerous snake..... got me thinking to the time I found her in an aweful lot of pain unable to walk  Oh, she was a red cattle bitch


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## redbellybite (Sep 29, 2009)

So Jason is it the fact she could tell it was a ven or just a snake in general ...dogs that attack wild snakes would attack any type,I would think ..how can they tell the difference between an eb and a gts?half the time humans cant tell the difference ....


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> So Jason is it the fact she could tell it was a ven or just a snake in general ...dogs that attack wild snakes would attack any type,I would think ..how can they tell the difference between an eb and a gts?half the time humans cant tell the difference ....



Well, I generally don't think they can without experience, that was the thing, she picked up the scent and without doubt she knew it was dangerous, and I suspect she had run into one before as when she was about 12-18 months old I found her unable to walk and was in alot of pain she slept in the kitchen and took a couple of days to shake it off... it got me thinking? 
It is quite easy to train dogs to avoid snakes though, all you need is a citronella remote control collar, a harmless snake and a cage of some type.


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## Serpentes (Sep 29, 2009)

My boy points 'em all out. Have a python in a bag in the bedroom at themoment and he keeps running in, growling, then running out to let me know "Dad! There's a snake in the bedroom!".

My girl dog got bitten by a big diamond python when she was a pup (quick way to learn that snakes aren't ropes!). She's since been wary about big pythons but not too worried about little quick elapids and tree snakes. So I guess JasonL your dog might have become a blacksnake searching machine  Take her out into P.butleri habitat and she'd be invaluable if you got on a scent!.


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> I know dogs quite often save or at least try to save their owners, but I don't really believe that dogs know this funny looking long thin thing has venom that would harm us (not domesticated dogs any way, unsure about dingos etc). It moves so it wants to kill it. Yet I maybe wrong, not saying its a fact, just what I think.



Not true with my dog......he'd want to play with it !! but if i tell him to leave then he does & just sits there & watches !
I dont believe domestic dogs have killer instinct's,... I know someone with a staffie that wants to kill every cat it see's....then someone else i know has a staffie that plays with cats ! Im thinking its the way they are raised from puppy by the owner that influences their behaviour/attitude in older life......(if the storys true...although a little twisted by the press) im sure this dog protected its owner & i'd be happy for my dog to kill a venomous snake that i hadnt seen, if that snake was a threat to me or anyone else..........And yes id be more worried about my dog being hurt than the snake..........we are part of this life on earth....we've all evolved from the same bacteria...whats the difference in a domestic dog killing a snake to protect its owner whom it see's as the leader of its pack...to another wild animal killing a snake to protect its young !


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

Some Dogs certainly have both "killer" and "pack" instincts... but you certainly can't just say "dogs" or "domestic dogs" to blanket all types of dogs, Cattle Dogs for example have only been around for under 200 years, with 1/4 dingo they can't be compaired to a dog that has been bred for 1000 years as a lap dog. Every type of dog originated (was bred) to serve a specific purpose, some of these purposes was to hunt and kill, some to kill large animals, some for small.. Many Terriers were bred to kill rats and mice ect... and it's not that they were designed to kill specifically rats, it was they were good at killing small fast animals..
Now the pack instinct... Dogs are pack animals, and the family they belong to is their pack, a good percentage of dog owners know little about the behaviour of dogs and the dog ends up being the leader of it's "pack".. any dog leading, or striving to become the leader will often try to defend the pack if it see's a member in danger, and if it is a type with an instinct to kill, it will usually be happy to bite or bite to kill.. This is often why dogs that form groups and / or are kept in large groups can turn dangerous.


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

JasonL said:


> any dog leading, or striving to become the leader will often try to defend the pack if it see's a member in danger, and if it is a type with an instinct to kill, it will usually be happy to bite or bite to kill.. This is often why dogs that form groups and / or are kept in large groups can turn dangerous.



I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that mate.....a dog will defend the pack regardless of its intentions to be pack leader........its hardwired in from birth.....(survival).......domestic and wild.....And from the info ive read over the years ....influence from the owner can determine the attitude of the adult dog later in life.


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that mate.....a dog will defend the pack regardless of its intentions to be pack leader........its hardwired in from birth.....(survival).......domestic and wild.....And from the info ive read over the years ....influence from the owner can determine the attitude of the adult dog later in life.



Are you saying EVERY domestic dog will defends it's pack?


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> And from the info ive read over the years ....influence from the owner can determine the attitude of the adult dog later in life.



Of course attitudes from the other pack members has an influence on the dog itself.


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Are you saying EVERY domestic dog will defends it's pack?


That would depend on the type of influence its had from its owner !


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## Midol (Sep 29, 2009)

Very few dogs will defend its pack. 

Dogs who attack Snakes are doing so from their prey insticts, prey drive. That's the desire to chase moving objects.

Ray Coppinger has done some interesting research into this. There are basically 7 phases of a hunt:
1. Orient
2. Eye
3. Stalk
4. Chase
5. Grab
6. Bite-Kill
7. Bite-Dissect 

Certain breeds of dogs will exhibit different parts of that sequence. As far as I know there is not a single breed in existance that reliably conducts all 7 of those. My first Husky, imo, did. However my current one does not. My GSD will "Eye", "Chase" and "Grab". I've never seen him "Bite-Kill"

I remember seeing a good flow chart on some common breeds and which sections Ray saw them exhibiting. Someone who actually understands canine behaviour will be able to identify which parts their dogs exhibit. Others will think they know, but will be wrong.

I highly suggest that if anyone is interested in this they research Rays work. Or you can remain misinformed.

This might be a good start:
http://www.canis.cl/general/archivos/media/files/Canine Ergonomics - The Science of Working Dogs.pdf

But it's downloading at 500 bytes per second so I can't read it first 

This has an alright explanation under "Dog Breeds":
Howstuffworks "How Dogs Work"

Jason, some dogs which have been bred for a bloody long time, like my breed, the Siberian Husky are very, very closely related to wolves... But that doesn't mean they have "wolfish" behaviour or are untrustworthy. A cattle dog is a cattle dog is a dog. If you treat it like a dog and train it appropriately then it is no different to any other high drive dog. Ohh, wait, I think we are agreeing  It all depends on the dog and what it was bred for.


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

Jason, some dogs which have been bred for a bloody long time, like my breed, the Siberian Husky are very, very closely related to wolves... But that doesn't mean they have "wolfish" behaviour or are untrustworthy. A cattle dog is a cattle dog is a dog. If you treat it like a dog and train it appropriately then it is no different to any other high drive dog. Ohh, wait, I think we are agreeing  It all depends on the dog and what it was bred for.[/QUOTE]

My example was that cattle dogs were bred to bite (the hocks of cattle), they are far more inclined to bite things than SOME other breeds of dogs... not all dogs are the same, but they all follow basically the same basic principals of behaviour.


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> That would depend on the type of influence its had from its owner !



You could not train every dog to be aggressive, some individuals just don't have it in them, others are easily trained to be aggressive, thats my point in short.


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

Midol said:


> Very few dogs will defend its pack.
> 
> Dogs who attack Snakes are doing so from their prey insticts, prey drive. That's the desire to chase moving objects.
> 
> ...



Sorry but ray (whoever he is) isnt the "all being" of dog behaviour !! there are alot of dog behaviour specialists all over the world...just because you personally believe rays work is gospel doest mean its right m8 !!......Ive read info from many different specialists (not just 1) & i dont consider any of them to be a bible on dog behaviour....& yes....I also believe im quite good at working out how my dog's mind works (sometimes !! lol) 


jason.....how do you define pack protection ??....i think youd be hard pressed to find a dog that doesnt either bark, growl or exhibit some other form of aggression when a stranger comes into your house.....wouldnt that be concieved as a form of protection ?


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

JasonL said:


> You could not train every dog to be aggressive, some individuals just don't have it in them, others are easily trained to be aggressive, thats my point in short.



Again....agree to disagree m8..:lol:.....im sure with the right surroundings & knowledge you could train any dog to be agressive....even the rats on sticks !! (toy dogs)


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

jason.....how do you define pack protection ??....i think youd be hard pressed to find a dog that doesnt either bark, growl or exhibit some other form of aggression when a stranger comes into your house.....wouldnt that be concieved as a form of protection ?[/QUOTE]

My current dog, who funnly enough is very dominant and barks when being roughed up and loves rough play will let anyone in the yard. A courier last week came into the yard and verbally assualted my wife and my dog just sat in the sun watching whilst they had a screaming match that lasted about 5 minutes.. I understand what you are saying and think you are generally correct, but there are some dogs, that are just plain lazy and generally scared of harsh conflict, usually this can be from how they have been raised or what has happened to them during their upbringing especially those dogs that are scared of conflict, but not always.


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Again....agree to disagree m8..:lol:.....im sure with the right surroundings & knowledge you could train any dog to be agressive....even the rats on sticks !! (toy dogs)



Toy dogs are often the most aggressive, usually fear aggression (the worst kind)


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Toy dogs are often the most aggressive, usually fear aggression (the worst kind)



lol.......well yeah...when your that small theres a reason to be scared eh !!..lol....i hate the lil ankle bitin buggers......get a proper dog !!! :lol:


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

JasonL said:


> My current dog, who funnly enough is very dominant and barks when being roughed up and loves rough play will let anyone in the yard. A courier last week came into the yard and verbally assualted my wife and my dog just sat in the sun watching whilst they had a screaming match that lasted about 5 minutes.. I understand what you are saying and think you are generally correct, but there are some dogs, that are just plain lazy and generally scared of harsh conflict, usually this can be from how they have been raised or what has happened to them during their upbringing especially those dogs that are scared of conflict, but not always.



LOL....you need to have words with that dog mate !! (what breed just out of interest) If my missus takes the dog out (boxer) and someone starts shouting at her the dog will growl !! if i have an argument with the other half the dog buggers off.....but anyone else & the dog is there at her side.


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## JasonL (Sep 29, 2009)

PM sent, getting off subject


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

Youre right....sorry for going off topic people !! (interesting stuff tho eh!)


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## Midol (Sep 29, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Ive read info from many different specialists (not just 1)



Name them.

More specifically, name another researcher who has researched prey based behaviours.

Ray IS the leading dog behaviourist in this area. There isn't really anyone else who is even delving into this area of dog behaviour that I am aware of.


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

Midol said:


> Name them.
> 
> More specifically, name another researcher who has researched prey based behaviours.
> 
> Ray IS the leading dog behaviourist in this area. There isn't really anyone else who is even delving into this area of dog behaviour that I am aware of.



LOL.......stop getting uptight.......no im not going to name anyone & i dont consider 1 behaviorist to be the "all knowing" ...........ive read info from many different behaviorist's......you cant wear blinkers when researching any given subject !!!!........im sure theres plenty of others around the world doing the same or simular research as ray......Ive no reason to doubt that ray might be the most experinced person in YOUR area & the most experinced person in your opinion.....sorry........not in mine !!

PM me if you want to carry on ....ive already said sorry once for going off topic.


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## Midol (Sep 29, 2009)

It's not off topic and I'm not uptight? I just intend to persue a career in canine behaviour so have a very strong interest in this field, you seem to know of others who are researching in the same area but refuse to give their names so I can't expand my knowledge.

I'm not entirely sure why you even initially responded to me. All I did was post about prey drive based behaviours, which chasing moving objects is, and explained it and you seemed to somehow disagree with my definitions and explanations of prey drive... Which I find odd as there isn't a single behaviourist out there that I know of that will disagree with the 7 parts in the sequence I posted.

I never even said the dog attacked the snake as a result of prey drive. I simply explained what prey drive is as a* possible* explanation.

ETA: Actually, I see i did not include the word "usually", my apoligies. I do not believe the dog in question was defending it's pack though. Dogs don't know what snakes are unless they learn this through past experiences or training causes an aggressive response.


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## Moreliaman (Sep 29, 2009)

Why do you need names......ray knows everything !!! ask him ;-)
you responded to one of my posts...remember !! No-one can say why this dog reacted the way it did for sure because none of us were there when it happened !!! 
Anyway....its turning into bickering......so...........the end!


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## Serpentes (Sep 29, 2009)

One of the tags on this thread is "joke".


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## Moreliaman (Oct 1, 2009)

"serpentes" seems to be a tag too !! ...;-)


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## learner74 (Oct 1, 2009)

*dog owner*

i have a staffy she is loyal and would protect her family where ever, when ever if she had to. And i will gladly thank her whatever the situation.


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