# Smuggling a worldwide problem...



## slim6y (Sep 16, 2012)

Even in countries that don't have large populations of reptiles:

Smugglers Use Web To Locate Rare NZ Lizards | Stuff.co.nz

"Reptile collectors are using scientific papers and online photos to identify sites where geckos can be caught for smuggling out of New Zealand."

And this news article does NOTHING to deter the mongrels either.

It makes me so sick!! 

If the gex weren't already endangered and people 'want' them for their 'collection' - what on earth gives them this power? Really? Why do people want a gecko so badly for their collection that they'll smuggle them from the wild and probably kill them too.


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## jamesn48 (Sep 16, 2012)

I know its disgusting, if you look on european sites new australian species are appearing all the time, things like mertens water monitors, lace monitors and shinglebacks are worth a fortune as well as the New Zealand Green Geckoes.


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## slim6y (Sep 16, 2012)

Then they all claim they're 'captive bred' - what a crock!

And our countries are powerless to stop these sites!


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## Venomous_RBB (Sep 16, 2012)

Its such a shame, it also disgusts me as well, but I really feel for the poor reptiles that have to be smuggled overseas... And no doubt at least some will die.
It's sought of like the GTP thread on here a month or so back, the poor things are being carted around in coke bottles and the likes?
I dont get it, I would love to have a King Cobra, its my all time favourite snake. However I wouldnt even think about doing something like this or getting one in Australia.... It just ***** me...


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## jack (Sep 16, 2012)

the wildlife authorities could catch and breed the animals themselves, then export them to markets at prices less than the smuggled animals, destroying the incentive for poaching and providing funds for conservation work. 
but that just makes too much sense, better off following the lock it up and leave it, let it all collapse philosphy.


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## SteveNT (Sep 16, 2012)

A mate of mine runs a herpetological tour out of Darwin. He has to make his punters sign a form that they cannot carry any form of gps device (phone, camera, anything). If they are carrying anything the tour is off.

He has had to do this because people (mainly Germans apparently) were taking his tour then returning to collect the herps for smuggling. He is so disillusioned he is thinking of shutting the tour down (after a great deal of investment).


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## Renenet (Sep 16, 2012)

This is beyond disgusting. Smuggling itself is sickening enough, but to exploit the work of people dedicated to conservation is beyond the pale.

Some people deserve to be booted off the planet.

- - - Updated - - -



SteveNT said:


> He is so disillusioned he is thinking of shutting the tour down (after a great deal of investment).



Steve, that's bloody terrible. I can imagine your mate started out wanting nothing more than to show our beautiful reptiles to conservation-minded herp enthusiasts. It makes me furious that people would take advantage of him in a way that makes him feel he's contributing to the problem.


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## imported_Varanus (Sep 16, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> A mate of mine runs a herpetological tour out of Darwin. He has to make his punters sign a form that they cannot carry any form of gps device (phone, camera, anything). If they are carrying anything the tour is off.
> 
> He has had to do this because people (mainly Germans apparently) were taking his tour then returning to collect the herps for smuggling. He is so disillusioned he is thinking of shutting the tour down (after a great deal of investment).



Graeme of Humpty Doo fame once related a similar story and his reptile display, only involving a couple from Sweeden. While a rather attractive blonde lassy "distracted" him around the front, her fella "visited" Graeme's Womas around the back (back then Womas were worth a few bickies), bagged several, jumped the fence and made a dash for their vehicle in the carpark. Luckily, Graeme caught up with the bloke at his car and "tapped" him several times in the head with his own car door!


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## Snotty (Sep 16, 2012)

Again it is easy to get emotive on these issues but in reality it is not the huge thing the media (and other groups) make it out to be. Smuggling itself at individual level is terrible but when a "backpacker" can pay for their backpacking trip many times over by just getting a few Knobtails back to the USA or Europe then it is almost asking for all of the problems. I should also point out that apart from CITES Appendix I animals the main places where reptile smuggling is a more serious problem are places like Oz and NZ. Animals like Indo GTP's are IUCN LC and Appendix II so only an export cert and ND are required from the originating country. There is no need to even smuggle them. Even then the "trade" is minimal compared to skins and things.

While I am not up to date on NZ these things need to be kept in perspective, I imagine rats and cats (Ferrets and stoats also if I remember correctly) still do far more damage there. Given an average of 200 reptiles per Hectare across say a density of 10 species for Australia and 216500 Ha of land was cleared in 2008 (a number from the ABS website) then 43.3 Million reptiles were lost in Australia that year alone. Not to mention 5 million or so killed on roads each year.

So anyway you calculate the numbers smuggling itself is hard to compare. Even if you say only 20 reptiles/Ha you are still at 4.3 million animals and so on. What really should happen is that there should be export licenses issued for some of the top Australian breeders then there is no incentive at all for the smuggling except for the very stupid - and that problem is impossible to solve.

Just my thoughts anyway.


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## slim6y (Sep 16, 2012)

Snooty, all very good points, and sure, you're right.

But it's the ol' adage... You gotta start saving them from somewhere!

As for ferrets, stoats, possums, pigs, goats etc etc.... I think backpackers should get paid for killing them... They'd be no harder to catch than some rare species of parrot or gecko. 

I do like Jack's idea of breeding some for sale (enough to flood the market to make them worthless is going to be difficult though). 

Coding secret locations, big fines, big jail sentences... One German fellow caught... And how many get away with it?


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## Cockney_Red (Sep 16, 2012)

Jack hit the nail on the head, SLIM, but common sense and, conservation are rarely bedfellows...


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## Wally (Sep 16, 2012)

People generally only get emotive if it's native stuff going out. 

Stuff coming in.... "oh lookit that purdy snake I'll make squillions"


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## 1Duddley (Sep 16, 2012)

Yes I certainly agree with this. Some years ago Hal Cogger commented that if a reptile species cannot cope with being collected off the roads it's doomed any way. As for the Green Pythons - well who is going to give theirs up if they are not Australian? Yes just tell your selves they arrived in an extra large coke bottle  There are certainly some animals smuggled from Australia but, not any where near the numbers portrayed, many reptiles come from Zoo breedings. When I was at San Diego Zoo some 15 years ago they were breeding Australian monitors, geckoes and snakes. Excess were sold to breeders - Zoo's are still a business employing staff and feeding animals. If only our Zoos here in Australia were not so far behind in their attutide to the pet trade, though there are a few that quietly sell some species. Lastly is the fact that many New Guinea animals are sold in the USA and other countries quite legally but we might think them as our own. For example frill neck lizards, scrub pythons, water pythons, painted turtles ........ I believe the best we can do is breed successfully any threatened species and put as many out there as possible, this makes it unviable to go collecting. A perfect example of this is the Golden Shouldered Parrot - in captivity now they are a dime a dozen, this was not always the case. Government Depatments want to be in control, but they do not care about conservation and the majority are completely opposed to Native animals as pets. Of course if a species becomes extinct then that's one less species the Government Department has to look after.


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## Chris (Sep 16, 2012)

Have a look on some of the forums overseas. Take Kimberley Rock Monitors for example (but you can include Merten's, Ackie's, Black Headed, Sand monitors etc.), many are more popular & abundant in the trade OS than they are here. How'd they get there? It's such a shame.


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