# Why why why!!!!!!



## cathy1986 (Aug 19, 2013)

I was reading some post on fb saying what will I get if I breed this with that etc..... I find it quite annoying when these sorta people ask these questions, because it goes to show they have no understanding of the general genetics of their snakes, so therefore have no plan in regards to what it is they are doing soo whats the point and why??? Whats your thoughts 

From Cathy


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## SteveNT (Aug 20, 2013)

It's the toy mentality. They have no respect for the beauty of a species. Never satisfied they need something no-one else has. It's all about them. Not the animals.

Just MO.


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## Tesla (Aug 20, 2013)

Just people who couldn't give a stuff about herpetology IMHO, funnily enough it's usually the same people who can't fathom the idea of snakes being anywhere but in enclosures.
There are a few on facebook who are treated like gods because they specialize in breeding crosses, it's a shame that their "work" seems a lot more interesting and important to some than those who have devoted their lives to Australian taxonomy, education and literature. 

Welcome to herpetology circa 2013


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## Variety (Aug 20, 2013)

I don't think there is any harm in asking questions online, I'm sure we've all had to start somewhere and i would prefer to ask direct and specific questions online instead of paying $90 for a book that mite briefly cover what it is I'm actually interested in. 

But hey, thats just me


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## Pilchy (Aug 20, 2013)

I don't think there is any problem with curiosity. I think everyone would be interested to see what an olive x coastal or scrub python would look like. There is a lot worse things people can be doing with their snakes other than hybridizing. Im not saying I recommend/support it, but I would be interested to see what the outcome of some particular cross breeds would be.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 20, 2013)

What I dislike is constant the use of the word "intergrade" that is happening these days. 
This is meant to describe a naturally occurring cross but its use when selling animals that have been deliberately cross bred with no forethought other than making a few bucks and misleading the uneducated buyer.


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## cathy1986 (Aug 20, 2013)

Pilchy said:


> I don't think there is any problem with curiosity. I think everyone would be interested to see what an olive x coastal or scrub python would look like. There is a lot worse things people can be doing with their snakes other than hybridizing. Im not saying I recommend/support it, but I would be interested to see what the outcome of some particular cross breeds would be.




im not really talking about hybrids directly more just the fact if you dont know what your doing then why are you doing it?? like ppl who buy a breeding pair then start posting about how do i make an incubator and how do i know when she is gravid etc when they should already know since they bought a breeding pair. wouldnt one think they would have prepared for their ventures?? 

its the same as i bought a snake how do i set up its enclosure what temps should i keep them at 

and i have a bredli can i breed it with my jungle what will i get?? -_-

lol it drives me a bit upsy daisy

PREPARATION and RESEARCH is the key


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 20, 2013)

Variety said:


> I don't think there is any harm in asking questions online, I'm sure we've all had to start somewhere and i would prefer to ask direct and specific questions online instead of paying $90 for a book that mite briefly cover what it is I'm actually interested in.
> 
> But hey, thats just me



Im with you on this one, they're is no stupid questions only stupid answers. How are these "uneducated" people going to get educated without asking questions?
I know the internet has taught me over 50% of what i know about reptiles.



cathy1986 said:


> PREPARATION and RESEARCH is the key


=
+1


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## saximus (Aug 20, 2013)

Why does everyone need to be so concerned with what everyone else is doing? Why is it always the purists and morph haters doing the attacking? Those who are interested in morphs don’t attack the purists for wanting boring wild types even though (as Gavin Bedford has suggested with his recent questions) our animals have literally zero conservation status. Why is it wrong to have an interest in this and for wanting to be able to see the real results of theoretical concepts?

For some people genetics is a fascinating subject and for those of us who are interested in reptiles then obviously reptile genetics are going to be the most fascinating. Tesla, I’m guessing you’re having a go at people who would be considered to be at the forefront of Carpet morphs like Larks in Aus or Precision Reptiles and UK Pythons in Europe. These guys have a strong understanding of an incredibly complex topic and it shows now that they are finally producing exactly what they said they would years ago when their projects were in their infancy. 

Have any of you sat down to try to understand what would come from pairings involving relatively simple double recessive morph or incomplete/co-dominant? Not only can it be difficult to wrap your head around but it would also be a nightmare trying to prove the possible hets and double hets that come from them. Half the people on this site don’t even understand how to produce albinos so it’s not surprising that people ask these questions, especially with the number of possible mixed morphs around now. While I can see the point the OP was making about researching, I would also consider asking questions on the internet a form of research. It would be quite a good way to research too, if the people who know the answers were given a chance to respond rather than people just attacking because they don’t like something.

I think it would be completely feasible for someone to buy a morph because they like the look of it and then a couple of months/years down the track to start wondering what sort of babies it could produce. If I were in that position, my first thought would be something along the lines of “where can I go where there are lots of knowledgeable people that I can ask a question of and have the best possible chance of someone who knows the answer responding?”
But hey, maybe I’m just a sucker for not assuming the worst of people straight away...


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 20, 2013)

saximus said:


> Why does everyone need to be so concerned with what everyone else is doing? Why is it always the purists and morph haters doing the attacking? Those who are interested in morphs don’t attack the purists for wanting boring wild types even though (as Gavin Bedford has suggested with his recent questions) our animals have literally zero conservation status. Why is it wrong to have an interest in this and for wanting to be able to see the real results of theoretical concepts?
> 
> For some people genetics is a fascinating subject and for those of us who are interested in reptiles then obviously reptile genetics are going to be the most fascinating. Tesla, I’m guessing you’re having a go at people who would be considered to be at the forefront of Carpet morphs like Larks in Aus or Precision Reptiles and UK Pythons in Europe. These guys have a strong understanding of an incredibly complex topic and it shows now that they are finally producing exactly what they said they would years ago when their projects were in their infancy.
> 
> ...


Beautiful just beautiful. Dihybrid crosses are always fun


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## cathy1986 (Aug 20, 2013)

lol u guys are still not understanding what im trying to put across hahahahaha u ask these sort of questions BEFORE you invest in the reptiles and BEFORE you attempt to breed etc lol


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## saximus (Aug 20, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> u ask these sort of questions BEFORE you invest in the reptiles and BEFORE you attempt to breed etc lol





cathy1986 said:


> I was reading some post on fb saying what will I get if I breed this with that etc



Sounds like that's exactly what they are doing


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## caliherp (Aug 20, 2013)

Some people ask these questions just to start a conversation. I for one have done this. Not because I lack the knowledge, but because I like to her other opinions on my pairings. There are far to many people who jump the gun and do there research after the fact. on the flip side I see nothing wrong with crossing your t's, and dotting your i's when it comes to reptiles. There is a lot of contradicting info on the internet. I see nothing wrong with first time breeders asking a million questions making sure they get it right the first time. that's just my 0.2.


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## lithopian (Aug 20, 2013)

It's all nice and good for someone to say people should prepare, be respectful of the hobby and plan ahead. But unfortunately, we are human and we are all raised in different ways with different degrees of intelligence and expectations. You can't police what people do in this hobby. I try and give advice where I think I can to all the stupid questions I see because I was there once too and everyone has to start somewhere. I'm 110% sure I asked stupid questions too including the age-old "My stimmie hasn't eaten in 5 months - what should I do???" that we all hate seeing. 

The only way to reduce the amount of stupid things people do is through education. Those of us who have been in the hobby for awhile should do all we can to help out the new guys with their curious (and yes, irritating) questions in the hopes that educating them will help them make the kinds of decisions that will preserve the hobby that we all love.


Don't forget as well that online forums attract all reptile enthusiasts - including kids that own reptiles. Don't assume that the person on the end of a question you perceive to be stupid is 30 years old and should know better (although I'm sure there's lots of those too!)


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## lovelacies (Aug 20, 2013)

Very well said "I'm sure we've all had to start somewhere" every needs advice at some point, the people on here need to pull the stick out!


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## andynic07 (Aug 20, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> im not really talking about hybrids directly more just the fact if you dont know what your doing then why are you doing it?? like ppl who buy a breeding pair then start posting about how do i make an incubator and how do i know when she is gravid etc when they should already know since they bought a breeding pair. wouldnt one think they would have prepared for their ventures??
> 
> its the same as i bought a snake how do i set up its enclosure what temps should i keep them at
> 
> ...



I agree with the theory of this statement about people should be prepared and have knowledge about what they are doing but do not like the term breeding pair. What is a breeding pair exactly? Some people sell hatchlings as a breeding pair where they will not be actually breeding for a number of years , even if the two snakes are of breeding age why are they considered a breeding pair. I would much prefer someone selling them as hatchlings probed or popped as male and female or male and female of breeding age or male and female previously bred.


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## Dmnted (Aug 20, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> I was reading some post on fb saying what will I get if I breed this with that etc..... I find it quite annoying when these sorta people ask these questions, because it goes to show they have no understanding of the general genetics of their snakes,



Not to start a massive debate here but some info for thought.
This is some info I have come accross in my travels.

_I've been told that DNA studies of the morelia group uncovered there were only three distinct DNA found in morelia - being imbricata, bredli and the rest..

Research was performed at the University of Adelaide/SA Museum through a number of PhD students under the supervision of Professor Steve Donnellen. Apparently despite the work being completed in 2006 it hasn’t been published. The reason for this is the PhD student got a job straight after his PhD with forensics and hasn’t had the time to publish the work.

But the title of the PhD is “Using DNA markers for wildlife management and protection: a study of the population structure and systematics of the Australian Carpet Pythons”. It was done by Duncan Taylor.

Here is an abstract …

Abstract
We used a range of molecular genetic markers to investigate the population structure of the polytypic and widespread carpet python complex (Morelia spilota) from Australia and New Guinea, in which two species and seven subspecies are recognized currently based on scalation, color pattern and behavioral traits. However, knowledge of the taxonomic and geographic distribution of variation in behavioral and morphological traits is incomplete and whether variation in these traits indicates population divergence or local adaptive responses has not been determined, making the basis for systematic decisions unclear. We examined variation in mtDNA control region sequences, allozyme loci and eight microsatellite loci from snakes sampled from 118 locations throughout the range of the complex and used concordance among the three datasets to analyse species boundaries. We found that the currently recognised species Morelia bredli and sub-species Morelia spilota imbricata can be recognized as distinct lineages within the Morelia spilota complex sufficient to warrant species status as M. bredli and Morelia imbricata respectively. Within the remaining taxon M. spilota, we found high levels of geneflow and low divergence between all other putative sub-species.

The bottom line of the study was that with the exception of imbricata and bredli the whole Morelia spilota group is just a complex of interbreeding populations which are locally adapted to their environments but are not reproductively isolated in the wild. 

all this research was carried out and supervised by:
Professor Stephen Donnellan
South Australian Museum,
North Terrace, Adelaide SA 5000, and
School of Earth and Environmental Sciences,
University of Adelaide SA 5005,
Australia.

_I wont name the person that enlightened me with this info but I am sure they will come forward if they want to.
My question is how much does the average hobbyist know about the australian snake populations gene pool?


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## Jumby (Aug 20, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> It's the toy mentality. They have no respect for the beauty of a species. Never satisfied they need something no-one else has. It's all about them. Not the animals.
> 
> Just MO.



Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Tesla (Aug 20, 2013)

saximus said:


> Why does everyone need to be so concerned with what everyone else is doing? Why is it always the purists and morph haters doing the attacking? Those who are interested in morphs don’t attack the purists for wanting boring wild types even though (as Gavin Bedford has suggested with his recent questions) our animals have literally zero conservation status. Why is it wrong to have an interest in this and for wanting to be able to see the real results of theoretical concepts?



Perhaps that is because they are using pure specimens in their "experiments" with little to no regard for the animals or the hobby. It's also these people who are peddling "unknown" crosses in the species, so the reason you won't see the hackers complaining is simply because the purists are the ones breeding the precursor needed for their "genetic work".



> For some people genetics is a fascinating subject and for those of us who are interested in reptiles then obviously reptile genetics are going to be the most fascinating. Tesla, I’m guessing you’re having a go at people who would be considered to be at the forefront of Carpet morphs like Larks in Aus or Precision Reptiles and UK Pythons in Europe. These guys have a strong understanding of an incredibly complex topic and it shows now that they are finally producing exactly what they said they would years ago when their projects were in their infancy.


There are lots of people who have an interest in genetics, myself included. What exactly is your point? It seems to me that you think as long as the final goal is reached the means and the ethical consequences become irrelevant as long as you can predict the final outcome.
Some of us have differing view on what makes a herpetologist and more to the point what makes a herpetologist worthy of praising and to be rather honest the people who rate on my list are the people who have used taxonomy, naturalism and ethical captive management to make a name for themselves rather than breeding a few morphs, some of which existed commonly in the hobby years ago without the huge price tags. Simply what I am saying is I respect those who respect our wildlife and conduct their work in such a manner, I have little respect for those who only care for making their wallets fat and inflating their egos. Too me it's also a need to have information and knowledge on taxonomy, we don't need the same on morphs.





> I think it would be completely feasible for someone to buy a morph because they like the look of it and then a couple of months/years down the track to start wondering what sort of babies it could produce. If I were in that position, my first thought would be something along the lines of “where can I go where there are lots of knowledgeable people that I can ask a question of and have the best possible chance of someone who knows the answer responding?”
> But hey, maybe I’m just a sucker for not assuming the worst of people straight away...



I think the problem is people who keep reptiles are bunched in to the same category together which I think is completely wrong as I feel there are 2 obvious cliques within it- Pet keepers and herpetologists. Some made their mark on herpetology by describing, classifying and outlining captive keeping others have made a name making "pretty" animals just like ornamental fish breeders.


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## saximus (Aug 20, 2013)

“With little or no regard for the animal or the hobby”
What effect does it have on the animals? If they are kept in a healthy environment with heat, food and water, I can’t see a problem.
What effect does it have on the hobby? Purists have been complaining about hybrids and morphs for years and yet it is still possible to obtain pure, locality animals if that is your thing. 

“the purists are the ones breeding the precursor needed for their "genetic work".”
As Dmnted pointed out, from a DNA stand-point, they are inseparable. So if it’s a Carpet and it looks like a Jungle, it’s a Jungle. A genetic morph doesn’t change depending on the locality of the great-grandfather of its host. 

“There are lots of people who have an interest in genetics, myself included. What exactly is your point?”
Maybe I should have been more specific. My point was that people have an interest in genetics from the point of morphs and the potential phenotypes that can be produced by a particular combination of genotypes.

“It seems to me that you think as long as the final goal is reached the means and the ethical consequences become irrelevant as long as you can predict the final outcome.”
It’s not that I think the ethical consequences are irrelevant. I think there are no special consequences. If a “pure” M.s.variegata escapes in Sydney, it would have exactly the same consequence as a mixed M.s.ssp. Maybe we should really be asking about what the ethical consequences of keeping animals in a box are first. If an animal is kept in clean, healthy conditions, what exactly are the consequences on that particular animal from having a combination of locality parents?

“Some of us have differing view on what makes a herpetologist and more to the point what makes a herpetologist worthy of praising”
You are absolutely correct that there are differing views and that there are at least two different camps on this issue. The only problem is that I only ever see one camp bashing the other on here and it’s pretty tiresome to read when you are interested in learning about the potential of these things and have to wade through so much excrement to get anywhere. I personally respect everyone who contributes to the care of wildlife and to the knowledge base for the hobby. What I don’t respect are people who seem to think their opinion is all that matters. Why should everyone else only be allowed to respect the people _you_ consider worthy? 

The hobby has and will continue to evolve. I think it would be much more interesting and enjoyable if everyone could stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and stick to whatever part of it holds interest for them. If you want a pure, line bred animal, buy from a breeder who only deals with pure, line bred animals. If you don’t, then go elsewhere. There is room for everyone, so why attack people for taking part in a side of the hobby that you don’t happen to like?


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## Grogshla (Aug 20, 2013)

people are bored and deros. That is why they do this


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## Tesla (Aug 20, 2013)

saximus said:


> "With little or no regard for the animal or the hobby”
> What effect does it have on the animals? If they are kept in a healthy environment with heat, food and water, I can’t see a problem.
> What effect does it have on the hobby? Purists have been complaining about hybrids and morphs for years and yet it is still possible to obtain pure, locality animals if that is your thing.



Ever heard of Neuro? If that doesn't have a detrimental effect on the animal I'm yet to see a point of view which expresses it as a benefit to the animal, care to elaborate? 



> “the purists are the ones breeding the precursor needed for their "genetic work".”
> As Dmnted pointed out, from a DNA stand-point, they are inseparable. So if it’s a Carpet and it looks like a Jungle, it’s a Jungle. A genetic morph doesn’t change depending on the locality of the great-grandfather of its host.



Again this comes down to ethics, even though the animals may be the same genetically they all have their endemic ranges with few overlapping. I see it as nothing more than justifying what they do. 





> There are lots of people who have an interest in genetics, myself included. What exactly is your point?”
> Maybe I should have been more specific. My point was that people have an interest in genetics from the point of morphs and the potential phenotypes that can be produced by a particular combination of genotypes.
> “It seems to me that you think as long as the final goal is reached the means and the ethical consequences become irrelevant as long as you can predict the final outcome.”
> It’s not that I think the ethical consequences are irrelevant. I think there are no special consequences. If a “pure” M.s.variegata escapes in Sydney, it would have exactly the same consequence as a mixed M.s.ssp. Maybe we should really be asking about what the ethical consequences of keeping animals in a box are first. If an animal is kept in clean, healthy conditions, what exactly are the consequences on that particular animal from having a combination of locality parents?



Firstly you said that the breeding of morphs have nothing to do with wild populations, your next response clearly shows a scenario which has an enormous impact of it, where do you actually stand on this or what if your argument because I find it hard to rebut a point when someone has contradicted themselves regarding wild/ captive instances.
Most people would be mortified if that was to happen but as I stated in my earlier post, some are in the hobby for ego inflation while others are in it to have some type of ethical view on how the animals evolved themselves over millions of years which would also include their endemic regions. Believe it or not even Morelia's mere aesthetic appearance is an ode to their evolution and shouldn't be cut down to the "all the same thing" simply to make someone (who has not contributed a single iota of good to the hobby) make themselves feel special in the eyes of their underling who believe it or not have the same ethical view on Australia's fauna.



> “Some of us have differing view on what makes a herpetologist and more to the point what makes a herpetologist worthy of praising”
> You are absolutely correct that there are differing views and that there are at least two different camps on this issue. The only problem is that I only ever see one camp bashing the other on here and it’s pretty tiresome to read when you are interested in learning about the potential of these things and have to wade through so much excrement to get anywhere. I personally respect everyone who contributes to the care of wildlife and to the knowledge base for the hobby. What I don’t respect are people who seem to think their opinion is all that matters. Why should everyone else only be allowed to respect the people _you_ consider worthy?



What do morph breeders contribute? The way I understand it is the science was around long before people decided it was a good idea to cross sub species, they definitely aren't contributing any knowledge on wild specimens or their endemism, captive care of the species regularly kept have been clearly defined for decades so please elaborate on what you personally feel they are "unlocking" in the hobby? If you are talking about the contribution of genetic data it's something which has been covered in literally thousands of books regarding genetics and was put in to practice many years ago in avian sectors and aquaculture, so again I'm not sure what you refer to when you speak of this great contribution they hand over to herpetology. 
I'm not saying people have to respect the same people who I respect, my point was that people who have scientifically classified species and actually handed over something of value regarding herpetology are overshadowed by self proclaimed genetic geniuses because they have figured of the mystical art of punnet squares. I bet if you were to take a survey of these newer people to the hobby who Glenn Storr was they wouldn't have a clue but could pick out "awesome morphs". This in itself is indicative of where the hobby is today. 




> The hobby has and will continue to evolve. I think it would be much more interesting and enjoyable if everyone could stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and stick to whatever part of it holds interest for them. If you want a pure, line bred animal, buy from a breeder who only deals with pure, line bred animals. If you don’t, then go elsewhere. There is room for everyone, so why attack people for taking part in a side of the hobby that you don’t happen to like?



Aren't you doing exactly what you are accusing myself and others like me of doing? Merely expressing an opinion, if you don't like that opinion you really don't have to read it. I didn't address my post to you or make any inclination that it's content was written purely to demonize or provoke a response from you so again I find that you have again contradicted yourself regarding your own standpoints and I find it almost impossible to rebut your context because it keeps changing to suit your argument.


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## saximus (Aug 20, 2013)

Tesla said:


> Ever heard of Neuro? If that doesn't have a detrimental effect on the animal I'm yet to see a point of view which expresses it as a benefit to the animal, care to elaborate?


I don't know of any albinos or hypos that have neuro. I suppose it is a fair point against Jags but I don't keep any so I can't comment on how it actually affects their wellbeing.



Tesla said:


> Firstly you said that the breeding of morphs have nothing to do with wild populations, your next response clearly shows a scenario which has an enormous impact of it, where do you actually stand on this or what if your argument because I find it hard to rebut a point when someone has contradicted themselves regarding wild/ captive instances.


My point there was possibly based on the wrong assumption that you were like most morph haters and this was the reason you are against crossing. That is the only scenario that I can think of for a pet to have any impact that people should worry about. Otherwise why should people care what someone else is keeping in an enclosure inside their own house?




Tesla said:


> What do morph breeders contribute? The way I understand it is the science was around long before people decided it was a good idea to cross sub species, they definitely aren't contributing any knowledge on wild specimens or their endemism, captive care of the species regularly kept have been clearly defined for decades so please elaborate on what you personally feel they are "unlocking" in the hobby? If you are talking about the contribution of genetic data it's something which has been covered in literally thousands of books regarding genetics and was put in to practice many years ago in avian sectors and aquaculture, so again I'm not sure what you refer to when you speak of this great contribution they hand over to herpetology.



They contribute to knowledge about morphs and to increasing interest in the pet side of the hobby. They're not bringing anything new scientifically but to me that is enough. 



Tesla said:


> Aren't you doing exactly what you are accusing myself and others like me of doing? Merely expressing an opinion, if you don't like that opinion you really don't have to read it. I didn't address my post to you or make any inclination that it's content was written purely to demonize or provoke a response from you so again I find that you have again contradicted yourself regarding your own standpoints and I find it almost impossible to rebut your context because it keeps changing to suit your argument.



I don't think I am. I just want to see everyone getting along and for people to be able to follow whatever part of the hobby interests them without being told they aren't allowed to ask questions because it is ethically wrong to some people.


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## andynic07 (Aug 20, 2013)

I think people are lumping morph breeding and sub species crossing and jags into one. I think they are three separate things and yes I know jag is a morph but I consider it different to axanthics for example because it comes with a possible neuro issue. I also know that some people will do a combination of each of these and sometimes all three but still think they can be considered different and discussed separately. I don't really see breeders of any of these as hurting the hobby and as far as the hobby is concerned I think they contribute to it because they bring in new people to the hobby which makes the price of equipment more affordable and accessible. The one thing that I would like to see by all involved is responsible breeding.


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## paultheo (Aug 20, 2013)

Cold-B-Hearts said:


> Im with you on this one, they're is no stupid questions only stupid answers. How are these "uneducated" people going to get educated without asking questions?
> I know the internet has taught me over 50% of what i know about reptiles.
> 
> 
> ...


 +1 on that +1 regarding the silly questions part, most of my knowledge came from hands on experience or asking established breeders and keepers.


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## bdav70 (Aug 20, 2013)

i've seen some (i hate to say it) ugly snakes advertised on this forum with bad photos and vague info. these breeders are among us


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 20, 2013)

bdav70 said:


> i've seen some (i hate to say it) ugly snakes advertised on this forum with bad photos and vague info. these breeders are among us


what makes a snake ugly exactly?


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## RedFox (Aug 20, 2013)

Cold-B-Hearts said:


> what makes a snake ugly exactly?



The same as what makes a snake beautiful... personal opinion/taste.


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 20, 2013)

RedFox said:


> The same as what makes a snake beautiful... personal opinion/taste.


beauty is different in everybodys eyes i agree


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## bdav70 (Aug 20, 2013)

RedFox said:


> The same as what makes a snake beautiful... personal opinion/taste.



exactly


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 26, 2013)

To clarify, a morph is a particular form. Morphs can be obtained in different ways. These include: An unusual individual selected in the wild; An unusual individual selected from a clutch produced in captivity; Artifical selection of specific phenotypes as breeding stock; In-breeding; Cross-breeding; Hybridisation; Or a combination of these processes, as happens with line-breeding. Morp means a morphologically distinct form. It may be the result of a particular allele or allele at one gene locus, or the alleles present at two gene loci or the overall effect of many gene loci. Some morphs result from interruption of the normal effects of genes (and are therefore not genetically reproducible).
The issue of inter-specific or even inter-generic crosses raises ethical questions. A donkey crossed with a horse produces a mule, which has highly desirable characteristics for working on farms. As the animals are sterile, there is little objection to their production and use. The real issues arise with animals that may be sterile but have no practical applications and those animals that produce fertile hybrids. The issues are both ethical and practical.


As we have seen, the ethical issues are not at all clear cut and lack consistency across the animal kingdom. For example, we don't seem to have people up in arms at the crossing of Red Siskin Finches with domestic Canaries to produce Red Factor Canaries. Yet the crossing of lions and tigers sparks outrage in some and acceptance in others. So I shall leave the discussion of ethics to you guys.
There are a number of practical issue with hybidising pythons, be it at the existing sub-species level (ignorning the unpublished thesis for the moment) or species level. Firstly it presents a management issue for authorities in terms of identification and record keeping (possibly sometimes many here don't mind). An issue that we have seen here is "I bought this as 'X' but it doesn't look like the pictures of 'X'. What the unwitting buyer has often procured is a snake with mixed origins yet they were led to believe it was a pure strain. It is apparent that some dealers will call there mixed hybrid snakes whatever an ignorant buyer is after. Many home breeders seem guilty of this.. whatever it takes to move it on and get the cash. And it is can be innocently self perputating, where people breed what they bought and pass on the offspring as being what they were told the parents were. 


A major concern for conservation is genetic pollution. It can occur with pure strains but there is a higher potential with hybrid snakes. When producing hybrids there is often a marked degree of variation within any clutch. Some of the snakes will no doubt be seen as desirable but the rest may not be so. Usually you don't get to see the permanent marking until the snake is past the juvenile stage. It is then that most culling is likely to occur. If such animals are released rather than killed it may lead to genetic pollution of local populations.


Just to clarify how (hope you enjoy, Saximus)...
I f you release one snake and it breeds with a local snake, half of the gene allels it carries are not passed on i.e. lost. Where an offspring from this mating breeds, it is odds on the breeding partner will not be related. So half of its genes will not be passed on. In two generations we have only 25% of the genes from the hybrid animal remaining. Add another two generations and that figure becomes 6.25%. However, if you released say 10 snakes or more, then the probability of hybrid snakes or those of hybrid origin mating with each other is such that the genes could be perpetuated. Other than for the first breeding the percentages are averages and may vary due to the effects of crossing-over and independant assortment of chromatids in the production of gametes.

Blue


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 26, 2013)

I know we tend to hammer an individual who has purchased a snake and then asks basic husbandry questions. We tell them they should have done their reseaarch first. I have two issues with this. 


Firstly, who here has trawled the net for specific information on the keeping of a specific species. You have information from who knows how many pet shops, from pets A to Z pages, from Vets who seem more interested in telling you all the things that can go wrong, from private individuals who vary from highly competent to "off with the fairies", and a few other sources. Then you have your reptile forums. Try typing in "Bearded Dragon care" in the search engine here - 365 threads. Know try reading through one or three that sound relevant. Remember to bear in mind we are talking about someone who has no background to discern useful information from misleading rubbish. These individuals need a lot more guidance than simply being told to do their research. It is a bit like a teacher telling a school kid to hop on the net and learn instead of actually assisting them to learn.


The second issue is more basic. I personally believe it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure, as best they can, that anyone buying an animal is cognisant of its requirements and how they may be best met. There are a number of excellent cheap publications that could be included as part of the sale. You have half a dozen species specific care booklets by Darren Green and others and John Weigel's book, priced between $15 and $20 (except for one which is $25). Sound information sufficient to get the novice keeper up and running and enjoying their charges. The cost should be incorporated in the sale of a snake and if the buyer is already competent then they can decline the book and may be get a $5 discount - not suffient for novices to try trying to save money and decline the book. Those sellers that maintain contact with their clients and assist them where they can are the ideal. All we can do is sing their praises and hope word of mouth carries newbies their way.


My legs are cramping a bit... must have been standing on this soap box too long.


Blue


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## Tesla (Aug 26, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I know we tend to hammer an individual who has purchased a snake and then asks basic husbandry questions. We tell them they should have done their reseaarch first. I have two issues with this.
> 
> 
> Firstly, who here has trawled the net for specific information on the keeping of a specific species. You have information from who knows how many pet shops, from pets A to Z pages, from Vets who seem more interested in telling you all the things that can go wrong, from private individuals who vary from highly competent to "off with the fairies", and a few other sources. Then you have your reptile forums. Try typing in "Bearded Dragon care" in the search engine here - 365 threads. Know try reading through one or three that sound relevant. Remember to bear in mind we are talking about someone who has no background to discern useful information from misleading rubbish. These individuals need a lot more guidance than simply being told to do their research. It is a bit like a teacher telling a school kid to hop on the net and learn instead of actually assisting them to learn.
> ...



Sorry but I strongly disagree with what you are saying.

There are entire websites and forum dedicated to the more commonly kept reptile species which are 100% free to utilize. To use your own example "bearded dragon care" has been discussed so in depth that most of these sites/forums will have complete lists of foods which can be eaten by bearded dragons and even at which regularity to feed them based on what the foods do and contain.
On these same resources there are literally hundreds of threads which cover everything from housing, husbandry,breeding to in-depth diagrams of lighting frequencies etc.
Where exactly do we draw the line? If they can't be bothered to spend a few hours trawling through these free resources to learn at least the basic needs of their animals they shouldn't be keeping them quite simply. The reason they ask so many questions is because it's easier for them to have the information they need handed to them on a silver platter which means getting their bearded dragon quicker without even an iota of effort put in to the process.

And it's nothing like a teacher telling their students to do their own research, we aren't paid to sit here and answer the same repetitive questions which are asked on a weekly basis. They aren't our proteges or children nor are the more experienced bound by some ethical force to sit there and spoon feed them easily accessible information.

If you think adding a book which covers husbandry in the sale of all reptiles is a good idea then go for gold my friend, just don't expect that sentiment to catch on considering people sell mainly to move excess stock on. The care of the animal is the buyers responsibility once it leaves the sellers possession and the books should have been purchased by the buyer well before even entertaining the idea of buying a reptile. It's kind of like saying someone should be able to drive a car without any previous knowledge or experience as long as it comes with a detailed manual on how to drive safely at the time of sale.
Should we also pop around a few times a week and change the water and feed and clean their new additions?

Don't get me wrong I am always willing to help out a buyer and even give a follow up service should the need arise, I will also answer questions online regarding the husbandry of species which don't have much in the way of information but I won't spoon feed someone only to take the burden of research off of them only to fast track them to getting their reptile.

A little initiative and common sense never hurt anybody.


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## Trimeresurus (Aug 26, 2013)

I agree with Tesla.


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## Moreliavridis (Aug 26, 2013)

That is the whole idea of a forum is for people to ask question. I'd rather see a thread asking certain question about husbandry and the like instead of what should I name my beardy. 
If you type in the search engine beardy you get bombarded with mainly useless threads. 
I do agree some people should put a little more effort into the research side of things. But someone who has never kept a reptile might not know where to start or what books/Internet pages are correct.


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## Pythons Rule (Aug 26, 2013)

the ones I cant get over what people over seas are doing to the Morelia's and the bhp's that cross is bloody wrong in every way, and that carpet x ball python.....why do people feel the need to play god with stuff that would never ever exist in the wild. so is the carpet x bhp or woma going to be carnivorous or able to eat venomous reptiles too or other reptiles? are they going to lay humungous eggs? would it cause more egg bound mothers? and why would you call it an Australian Dream when its classed as an abomination??? think he needs to re name this animal.


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## Snowman (Aug 26, 2013)

So many busy bodies worrying about what other people are doing. Glad I'm not your neighbor.


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## Barrett (Aug 26, 2013)

Tesla said:


> The reason they ask so many questions is because it's easier for them to have the information they need handed to them on a silver platter which means getting their bearded dragon quicker without even an iota of effort put in to the process.



Though, isn't that just human nature; trying to do things as quickly as possible. Not saying that in this case I agree with that notion, though, it's just how a lot of people get things done.


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## Red-Ink (Aug 26, 2013)

Snowman said:


> So many busy bodies worrying about what other people are doing. Glad I'm not your neighbor.



We're not busy bodies... we're doing it for the hobby... wait or is it for conservation, yeah that's it.... no wait I know, it's definitely for the children. Somedody has to think of the children.


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## Tesla (Aug 26, 2013)

As I said before. Herpers and pet keepers.
The problem is pet keepers can't see beyond their enclosures.


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## Snowman (Aug 26, 2013)

Tesla said:


> As I said before. Herpers and pet keepers.
> The problem is pet keepers can't see beyond their enclosures.


Pet keepers don't have too.... Pet snakes are just that. They can never be used to replenish wild stock. I keep mainly local specific. But I don't care what anyone else keeps.


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## Hamalicious (Aug 26, 2013)

Tesla said:


> As I said before. Herpers and pet keepers.
> The problem is pet keepers can't see beyond their enclosures.



Bang on mate. Just because it's in a tub or enclosure, doesn't mean it's natural requirements no longer matter. I learn a whole lot more seeing animals in the wild than i do from care sheets.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 27, 2013)

*Tesla* and *Trimer*, I don't mind that you strongly disagree with me, but having read your response I am confused as to what exactly it is you disagree with in what I said. 


At no stage did I indicate that there was not good information available on the net or within APS threads. What I said was that someone with no background is unable to discern what is good and what is rubbish, hence the need for clear guidance. Today I tried a little exercise and read the first six google sites for "Bearded Dragon care". There were difference in information on diet, contradictions on substrate use, different supplement regimes, one only talked about food size, differences in recommended lighting, recommended temperatures varied, the initial enclosure varied from an aquarium to a professionally produced viv and so on. An easily repeated investigation if you have the time. This is why I stated that newbies need "firm guidance" (not "spoon feeding" as you have mentioned). 


To illustrate in real life, not that long ago a newbie wanted help on looking after a hatchling woma, particularly the sort of enclosure. A number of people responded and I gave her the the web address of the Southern Cross Articles by Doc Rock and the APS thread on How to Make a Click Clack. A few days later she replied, thanking all who had helped, saying the information provided was just what she needed, in particularly the click clack thread which was a huge help. She was given clear guidance! She did the work. She reaped the benefits. I am at a loss as to how "fast tracking possession" or "spoon feeding" can be extracted from that.


The other point I made was that: "I personally believe it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure, as best they can, that anyone buying an animal is cognisant of its requirements and how they may be best met". You stated: "The care of the animal is the buyers responsibility once it leaves the sellers possession". Both these statements are correct in my book.


What does confuse me is that you made a sarcastic remark about breeders following up on a sale and in the very breath you say: "Don't get me wrong I am always willing to help out a buyer and even give a follow up service should the need arise, I will also answer questions online regarding the husbandry of species which don't have much in the way of information..."


A similar thing with my suggestion of including a book as part of the sale. You say the book should have been purchased and used ahead of time and yet draw an analogy with driving that belittles it worth. The ideal situation is that a potential purchaser gets the book to read first. If that is not possible then it is part of the transaction and it is then encumbent on the buyer to do the reading ASAP. While it may not be the ideal situation it is a realistic and desirable alternative compared to selling snakes with no information provided.


It does appear that you have a presumption that those intending to purchase a reptile should know they need to find out about their specific care ahead of purchase. On this point we clearly do differ. It is not an uncommon experience for people to purchase a pet they know nothing about and to have no hassles with... dogs, cats, budgies, canaries, goldfish, rats, mice, guinea pigs to name a few of the more common ones. Everything you need to know, and what you need to keep them, can be packaged up in the one transaction. In addition to that a lot of people think of reptiles as able to look after themselves because it is not uncommon to see them in your garden, down the park, on the golf course etc. Combine that perception with previous experience of easy to keep uncomplicated pets, and you have an unwitting potential purchaser with no idea at all that reptiles do have some very specific requirements. So if the seller doesn't tell them, how do they find out?


One last point that nothing to do with the above. It is my belief that many keepers start out with a reptile simply bought as an interesting pet. They then progress from pet keeper to herpetological enthusiast over time. The rest of us were born with it in our blood. Lol.


Blue


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## Newhere (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm new and I don't have any reptiles yet and while looking up info on here I find a lot of threads about people that have just got an animal and they need advice and info on how to care for it. It annoys me a little bit as I think they should of done their research first like I am doing but everone is different and I would still help them if I could. It makes me wonder who sold these people animals and let them walk off without even knowing its basic requirements? 

I asked some stupid questions when I joined up here and I got ignored even though my thread recieved lots of views but its not because I'm too lazy to search, its because some of the info on here and other sites varies and is never the same or in complete detail. Also alot of the info on here is just peoples opinions and of course none of you can agree on anything so there will be ten different answers to one question all wrapped up in a single thread 

There is a lot of questions that have already been answered but to be honest most of the search results are over five years old and how do I know if the information is accurate as it certainly isn't up to date. The question is do you guys want an active forum where people come to learn and help out less experienced keepers and generally help the hobby advance and grow or do you want a giant archive of OLD posts and threads full of information that people can search and try and decode the best method from the various and sometimes plain wrong answers? Some of you have a lot of knowledge that is easily shared and the majority of users on here are Australian so wake up Australia get off your high horses and help out the people that need it to keep their pets happy and healthy. 

I wont even bother posting threads on here if I need help because I don't like to be made to feel like an idiot by some people just because I want the advice of an experienced keeper.


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## Lawra (Aug 28, 2013)

Newhere said:


> I'm new and I don't have any reptiles yet and while looking up info on here I find a lot of threads about people that have just got an animal and they need advice and info on how to care for it. It annoys me a little bit as I think they should of done their research first like I am doing but everone is different and I would still help them if I could. It makes me wonder who sold these people animals and let them walk off without even knowing its basic requirements?
> 
> I asked some stupid questions when I joined up here and I got ignored even though my thread recieved lots of views but its not because I'm too lazy to search, its because some of the info on here and other sites varies and is never the same or in complete detail. Also alot of the info on here is just peoples opinions and of course none of you can agree on anything so there will be ten different answers to one question all wrapped up in a single thread
> 
> ...



This!!! 

Well, most of it lol. 

I think what can be taken from the forum (as a newbie) is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are certainly wrong ways to do things, but that doesn't mean there's only one right way to do it. 

There are lots of people with lots of knowledge and over time you learn who is the most switched on, even though their manner is less than desirable. 

I think something that is important to state when posting about getting a new herp is briefly state what info you have found and ask if it's correct and if anyone can expand on it. Asking a straight out questions like "how often do I feed it" or "how do I keep it warm" are easy ways to get either ignored or flamed. Show a little incentive and awareness and questions will be answered appropriately. 

Just my 2 cents...


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## Newhere (Aug 28, 2013)

Hey lawra, thats exactly what I did and still only a couple people helped, its not hard to tell who the good people are. I am very thankful to the ones that put the effort in as I think thats what being Australian is all about. Its about mateship and helping out everyone no matter how silly the question might be. I don't know how to do quotes from other threads but if you look in introductions my thread was called "hey everyone" and I wasn't asking straight out questions, they are fairly lengthy and detailed.

I just think its silly that when there is a thread on jags or morphs or albinos it ends up five pages long with heaps of comments but some people will ignore a thread with someone asking for help. These same people will sit on here and yap on about contributing to the hobby while they don't contribute any info to the younger generation of hobbyists because "they can just search it themselves"

If that is your attitude it is plain unfair that the first 100 people that asked a silly question got an answer and the rest can "search and decode" as I like to call it  

Anyway thats just life and it takes all different types to make the world go round and luckily there will always be a few good people to answer the so called silly questions.


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## Lawra (Aug 28, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Hey lawra, thats exactly what I did and still only a couple people helped, its not hard to tell who the good people are. I am very thankful to the ones that put the effort in as I think thats what being Australian is all about. Its about mateship and helping out everyone no matter how silly the question might be. I don't know how to do quotes from other threads but if you look in introductions my thread was called "hey everyone" and I wasn't asking straight out questions, they are fairly lengthy and detailed.
> 
> I just think its silly that when there is a thread on jags or morphs or albinos it ends up five pages long with heaps of comments but some people will ignore a thread with someone asking for help. These same people will sit on here and yap on about contributing to the hobby while they don't contribute any info to the younger generation of hobbyists because "they can just search it themselves"
> 
> ...



Agreed  there are some really helpful people out there though, and for that I am thankful. I am very lucky that the guy I bought my woma from has continued to give me advice and has been an absolute godsend. I am actually buying my second snake from him also  

I don't recall your thread in particular, but there are sooo many things to read on here that unless it's directly relevant to me it tends to go in one ear and out the other (like all the talk about jags and morphs lol)

I have made some lovely friends on this forum though  so nice people are definitely out there. That's just life though, some people are nice and some aren't. I have learnt so much on here though, and will continue to as I have not yet read every single post on here (I'm getting there though, insomnia ftw)


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 28, 2013)

It feels strangely inappropriate to provide "likes" for statements about shortcomings. They were, of course, provided as recognition for having the backbone to stand up and be counted.


People vary and some individuals who join the forum seem to delight in the attention while they waste the time of others. That is still no excuse to tar everyone with the same brush. 


Other individuals seem to have had a much smoother and virtually trouble free introduction to the forum. Possibly luck rather than managing it but I don't really know. Irrespective, it is very disappointing to hear of your experiences. I am sorry it has been that way for you.


Blue


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## Lawra (Aug 28, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> It feels strangely inappropriate to provide "likes" for statements about shortcomings. They were, of course, provided as recognition for having the backbone to stand up and be counted.
> 
> 
> People vary and some individuals who join the forum seem to delight in the attention while they waste the time of others. That is still no excuse to tar everyone with the same brush.
> ...



I'm pleased with my experience on here personally  it's all part of learning and growth. I give out "likes" in the same way I give out smiles: lots of and regularly


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## Snowman (Aug 28, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Hey lawra, thats exactly what I did and still only a couple people helped, its not hard to tell who the good people are. I am very thankful to the ones that put the effort in as I think thats what being Australian is all about. Its about mateship and helping out everyone no matter how silly the question might be. I don't know how to do quotes from other threads but if you look in introductions my thread was called "hey everyone" and I wasn't asking straight out questions, they are fairly lengthy and detailed.
> 
> I just think its silly that when there is a thread on jags or morphs or albinos it ends up five pages long with heaps of comments but some people will ignore a thread with someone asking for help. These same people will sit on here and yap on about contributing to the hobby while they don't contribute any info to the younger generation of hobbyists because "they can just search it themselves"
> 
> ...



I rarely read introduction threads. It's not the best place to ask questions. I don't think I've seen too many silly questions since I've been on APS. Though I sometimes wonder why it is so hard for some people when it was so simple for me as a noob. I bought and read the recommended keeping books. I read everything I could find on the Internet. Sometimes I feel people want to just know the absolute minimum to get by, rather than immersing themselves in the sea of available information before they even get a reptile. I ask a few questions. I'm not saying no one should ever ask a question. But I tend to respond to questions that aren't easily obtained with a little self help.


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## Red-Ink (Aug 28, 2013)

A "silly" question asked in a non silly well thought of manner will recieve answers... it's all in the delivery.


When should I feed my....? (silly delivery) with a silly answer (when it's hungry) or people will just ignore it - though a genuine question from somebody new to the hobby with real concerns about the specimen they keep.

Rephrase to:

Is there a correct or prefered feeding regime/schedule for my....? - not so silly and sounds well thought of, will most likely get answers, may even generate genuine debate amongst keepers...

Both essentially asking the same thing but which one do you guys think people will respond more to?


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## Lawra (Aug 28, 2013)

Red-Ink said:


> A "silly" question asked in a non silly well thought of manner will recieve answers... it's all in the delivery.
> 
> 
> When should I feed my....? (silly delivery) with a silly answer (when it's hungry) or people will just ignore it - though a genuine question from somebody new to the hobby with real concerns about the specimen they keep.
> ...



That's exactly what I was trying to say  you put it in a more direct, well thought out way. Thank you


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## moosenoose (Aug 28, 2013)

One of my favourite snakes is perhaps my most boring, ....and it's just your standard Darwin. Why play with perfection I say


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## Newhere (Aug 28, 2013)

Yeah I know it wasn't the best place to ask a question but I was new lol and after not recieving many replies I decided not to bother putting a thread in the help section. 

I am doing hours of reasearch and I have been for months so far but I had a specific question about my enclosures electrical setup and I was after a second opinion thats pretty much all.

I know the silly questions you are talking about as I have seen lots of threads that look like they were created by children or maybe mentally challenged individuals. My point is, why don't these people deserve help? Keeping pets has many benifits for both children and mentally challenged people and keeping reptiles is actually better than your average pet because you have to learn a lot of stuff to keep the animal healthy and provide a suitable habitat so that is mental stimulation. 

The types of people that ask these questions are the types of people that might not be able to read a care sheet or book and put that into practice at they may have learning problems or be too young to understand and apply the information. What is the harm in spoonfeeding them some info to make sure they have a rewarding experience with their pet and the animals requirements are being met? 

I'm sure if a mentally challenged person or a child walked up to you in real life and asked you a stupid question you would help them instead of thinking "go do ya research ya little rookie" lol well I hope most of you would help them and I think thats what everyone should do on here and in real life. Help out the less fortunate and help the hobby grow and everyone have the opportunity to keep a reptile.

Also I'm not a fan of crossing animals as I think they are all beautiful just as they are and just how they have evolved to be. When you look at a pure python you are looking at mother natures creation from millions of years of evolution. Even if all the carpets are the same animal they have evolved beautiful patterns for all of their individual ecosystems and I don't understand why you would want to mix n match them instead of appreciating each individual as a specimen of their environment and how the animal has adapted to live where it does. I'm not against it as people can do what they want but I prefer the pure animals as that is the true beauty of mother nature.


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## Snowman (Aug 28, 2013)

Newhere said:


> I know the silly questions you are talking about as I have seen lots of threads that look like they were created by children or maybe mentally challenged individuals. My point is, why don't these people deserve help? Keeping pets has many benifits for both children and mentally challenged people and keeping reptiles is actually better than your average pet because you have to learn a lot of stuff to keep the animal healthy and provide a suitable habitat so that is mental stimulation.
> 
> The types of people that ask these questions are the types of people that might not be able to read a care sheet or book and put that into practice at they may have learning problems or be too young to understand and apply the information. What is the harm in spoonfeeding them some info to make sure they have a rewarding experience with their pet and the animals requirements are being met?



How is any of that my problem as a forum member? If they can't read a care sheet or understand a book then my answers are not going to be any more clear. As the books are made specifically for informing individuals of husbandry and keeping practices. Often if they are intellectually impaired they should have a parent or guardian overseeing their pets needs. 

I answer a lot of questions on this forum since 2009. But there are a lot of questions or threads I ignore. It's part of being a forum member to pick and choose the topics that you would like to get involved in. If you post a question and it goes un answered then try another approach. Perhaps find someone in your area that keeps reptiles and use them as a mentor. Join the local reptile society and ask anyone at a meeting and they will be happy to help. Make friends on the forums of people in your state and send PM's to them asking specific questions.
It's not rocket science. And I hate the mentality that its everyone else's problem (the forum members) if a question is not answered to the satisfaction of the original poster.

Helping people is great. I have helped a lot of strangers off forums in the past. Everything from donating click clacks and heat cords to wiring up a viv free of charge. But you can't expect people to jump when you tell them too!


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## andynic07 (Aug 28, 2013)

Snowman said:


> How is any of that my problem as a forum member? If they can't read a care sheet or understand a book then my answers are not going to be any more clear. As the books are made specifically for informing individuals of husbandry and keeping practices. Often if they are intellectually impaired they should have a parent or guardian overseeing their pets needs.
> 
> I answer a lot of questions on this forum since 2009. But there are a lot of questions or threads I ignore. It's part of being a forum member to pick and choose the topics that you would like to get involved in. If you post a question and it goes un answered then try another approach. Perhaps find someone in your area that keeps reptiles and use them as a mentor. Join the local reptile society and ask anyone at a meeting and they will be happy to help. Make friends on the forums of people in your state and send PM's to them asking specific questions.
> It's not rocket science. And I hate the mentality that its everyone else's problem (the forum members) if a question is not answered to the satisfaction of the original poster.
> ...


I guess the first part of your statement comes down to comprehension and if a person is not able to comprehend what is written in a book or on the internet then how is relaying the same information on a thread going to help. I think the forum is made up of a lot of different types of people , some that enjoy helping the needy and some that don't, some people can search basic information and use their knowledge and common sense to piece together the rest and others can't so like you said it isn't the members fault if information isn't supplied to the degree or as timely as the poster wanted. What we can do as forum members though is control how we treat others on this site and that is where a lot of people don't do their 50%. I would rather no answers than a condescending or rude remark made as would many others , I am sure this site has lost a lot of members and I was nearly one by the remarks made by some people. I am now used to how some speak to others and don't let it bother me but as a first welcome to the forum world it can be a bit off putting even though the moderators do a great job trying to control this they can't be everywhere at once. I also think that people go through stages where they post a lot and then don't post much at all depending on what is going on in their lives and this can effect the amount of answers that a question may get.


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## lithopian (Aug 28, 2013)

I would prefer to see repeated or just noob questions, (whether they are phrased intelligently or not as someone above suggested) rather than hear about reptiles being seized from owners who don't heat them, or don't provide them with enough food, or allow them to get impactions or don't notice they're egg-bound or gravid etc. A question, no matter what it is, is a sign of someone seeking information, which in my mind is always going to be better than not seeking it at all. 

Whether you have the tolerance to answer it is a different question. I would suggest that if those questions irritate you, whatever 2c you feel like giving is probably not going to be constructive and therefore a waste of both parties' time. When people do not receive an answer to their question, I believe that is answer enough to let them know their approach was perhaps a little lacking. 

Personally, I think a booklet being provided upon buying your first reptile (or a new species) is a brilliant idea. Time and effort is obviously a factor. I might consider doing something like this with hatchies I move on in the future.


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## Snowman (Aug 28, 2013)

lithopian said:


> I would prefer to see repeated or just noob questions, (whether they are phrased intelligently or not as someone above suggested) rather than hear about reptiles being seized from owners who don't heat them, or don't provide them with enough food, or allow them to get impactions or don't notice they're egg-bound or gravid etc. A question, no matter what it is, is a sign of someone seeking information, which in my mind is always going to be better than not seeking it at all.
> 
> Whether you have the tolerance to answer it is a different question. I would suggest that if those questions irritate you, whatever 2c you feel like giving is probably not going to be constructive and therefore a waste of both parties' time. When people do not receive an answer to their question, I believe that is answer enough to let them know their approach was perhaps a little lacking.
> 
> Personally, I think a booklet being provided upon buying your first reptile (or a new species) is a brilliant idea. Time and effort is obviously a factor. I might consider doing something like this with hatchies I move on in the future.


I've written a care sheet and started to work in it a bit more a few times with the idea of making a blog for people that get new hatchies that I sell. But its a much bigger undertaking than I had originally thought. They hard part is keeping it simple and not plagurising other guides out there. Making it easy to understand and so the reader understands the basics is the end goal. I think the main thing with noobs is getting heating right. Understanding how and where to read the heat in the basking spot. How to use different heating methods. And how to make sure the hatchy isn't stressed. What keeps detering me is that there is nothing that hasn't already been covered in the bibles. IE keeping and breeding Australian pythons, the complete carpet python, the complete antaresia and pythons of the world volume one.


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## Trimeresurus (Aug 28, 2013)

One big thing I agree with snow on is what he said about not having a hard time finding the same information when I was starting out. If people can't be bothered to put in the time and patience to find some easily available information, why should they deserve a pet that requires them both of those things?


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 29, 2013)

This is a complex issue for a whole range of reasons. It is pleasing to see the last few posts teasing out releveant detail from the morass. The attitudes of individual's vary and their reason and the way the view the forum and its uses are even more variable.

The brother-in-law has a great T-shirt that says "I can explain for it to you... But I cannot understand it for you". There is a percentage of individuals who want others to do all the work for them. Where you have cause I believe you are entitled to address these issues. I know that I told individuals that I believe are just out to waste people's time or obviously going about the questioning in a totally slap-dash manner, This is what I believe they are doing and why I think that. As a result I have been criticised by some longer term forum users for being unduly harsh.

Nor do I expect highly experienced users to answer basic questions. Their expertise and time is often better directed at more challenging and complex issues. Most have done their time in primary school and shouldn't be criticised for working at a tertiary level now.


One point I have tried to make is that if individuals are not told told ahead of time, how the hell are they supposed to know that reptiles have specific requirements that differentiate them from the feathers, fur or fins brigade. For example, far and away the most common scaly pets are goldfish and carp - neither of which need heating. And I agree with Snowman that heating is the major issue (though not the only one) new keepers need to get properly sorted if they are to successful.


Like the brother-in-law's t-shirt, I do not advocate that forum users do all the work for new keepers. I don't have an issue with answeing specific questions. But faced with a plethora of individual requests or an all-embracing "how do you look after 'X'?", they need to be directed to where they can find satisfactory answers but through own efforts.

I definitely agree that how a question is phrased affects how we respond. How would you heat a hatchling 'X'? versus I have heard that heat mats are dangerous so how do I heat my hatchling 'X'? The forum does tend to be more accepting of those who do demonstrate that they are making the effort to learn off their own bat. Unfortunately we also tend to make the assumption that those that do not demonstrate this are not prepared to make the individual effort required. This is partially the point at which I entered the conversation with my initial post.

You don't have to do the research for people. All you need to do is to direct them to appropriate specific resources that will allow them to find the information they need, confident in the knowledge that what they are finding out is worthwhile and not rubbish. 
If the 'sticky threads' worked the way they were intended then a lot of this discussion would be redundant. The information pages have potential but have a long way to go yet.

And yes. There are some people who should be allowed to take on the responsibility of any pet, let alone a reptile. To a certain degree I feel we are victims of our own success. Many no longer view snakes as evil and nasty and they have they even become fashionable and trendy.


A final thought, a little something to consider... If you don't wish to help the keeper perhaps you may still wish to help that which is being kept.


Blue


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 29, 2013)

lithopian said:


> ....Personally, I think a booklet being provided upon buying your first reptile (or a new species) is a brilliant idea. Time and effort is obviously a factor. I might consider doing something like this with hatchies I move on in the future.


That is good to hear.

While I have long suggested the use of Weigel's book for beginners, the idea of providing an appropriate species specific booklet comes from a well respected source I visited in the south of WA. I still believe it wold be of advantage to all beginners to read through Weigel's book, as it provides an overview to the hobby that is second to none and makes very clear the basics of keeping. An excellent stepping stone to launch one into species specific care, in my opinion.

Blue


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## cathy1986 (Aug 29, 2013)

I think when applying for your reptile licence you should pass some sort of theory test about types of snakes, basic health, feeding & quarantine and then something about setting up enclosures and also get bitten by a snake.
so many people buy snakes and get bitten and dont want it anymore. 
As it comes with the territory of being a snake owner ITS GOING TO HAPPEN one day or another so may as well kbow what your in for.


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## lithopian (Aug 29, 2013)

I like the idea of a theory test cathy - WA changed their application process a while back that incorporated the requirement for a reference to acquire your licence. But as I understand it, any friend can write a reference and it's more of a character reference than anything else. 

I know when I bought my first python I was not fully expecting some of the health problems that I encountered within the first 12 months, and these were not covered in my python care books.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

lithopian said:


> I like the idea of a theory test cathy - WA changed their application process a while back that incorporated the requirement for a reference to acquire your licence. But as I understand it, any friend can write a reference and it's more of a character reference than anything else.
> 
> I know when I bought my first python I was not fully expecting some of the health problems that I encountered within the first 12 months, and these were not covered in my python care books.


What sort of problems did you have?


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## Rlpreston (Aug 29, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> I think when applying for your reptile licence you should pass some sort of theory test about types of snakes, basic health, feeding & quarantine and then something about setting up enclosures and also get bitten by a snake.
> so many people buy snakes and get bitten and dont want it anymore.
> As it comes with the territory of being a snake owner ITS GOING TO HAPPEN one day or another so may as well kbow what your in for.



I think that's a great idea, if they had online applications with a quiz before you can apply maybe.

To be honest, as a youngster I mistakenly assumed that there was such a test, just like for other 'licences'! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## lithopian (Aug 29, 2013)

My male python was cooling itself and would lay on top of the hide (heated below from a heat mat) and his tongue began to not fully retreat into his mouth and I was concerned as I did not know what could cause this. I was told to put him on forced heat and it fixed itself. I did a lot of research at the beginning and had never heard of a cold python showing this type of behaviour, and I must admit I haven't read it since. 

That is the only issue I remember experiencing that I could not find an answer for by researching.

The other one that I had was a hydration issue... I provided a humidity box for my female python as she had problems shedding her skin in the past, and she took to it with great enthusiasm...but would not leave the box. I requested advice on whether I should remove her from the box and take it out, but was told that she would remove herself when she needed to. I can't remember how long she was in there, but I got worried and removed her myself and her eyes had completely swollen out from her head with the excess water retention. There wasn't a lot I could do, and time fixed the issue - her eyes were back to normal the following morning. It was a cause for concern though as a new reptile keeper.



Rlpreston said:


> I think that's a great idea, if they had online applications with a quiz before you can apply maybe.
> 
> To be honest, as a youngster I mistakenly assumed that there was such a test, just like for other 'licences'!
> 
> ...



haha! I admit that I thought getting my reptile licence would be really difficult to get and I took a reptile handling course so that I could list it and have a certificate to say I'd done it.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

lithopian said:


> My male python was cooling itself and would lay on top of the hide (heated below from a heat mat) and his tongue began to not fully retreat into his mouth and I was concerned as I did not know what could cause this. I was told to put him on forced heat and it fixed itself. I did a lot of research at the beginning and had never heard of a cold python showing this type of behaviour, and I must admit I haven't read it since.
> 
> That is the only issue I remember experiencing that I could not find an answer for by researching.



That's very odd. I've been keeping for awhile now and have lots of snakes but never had anything like that. When keeping any animal (snakes, rabbits, horses, dogs etc) there can always be a case where no amount of reading or researching is going to help. And in such situations either a trip to the vet is in order or perhaps showing it to an experienced keeper. The books are for beginners to get the basics right. It would be impossible and impractical to cover every situation. Though I do enjoy reading Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas R Mader. A good book for any reptile enthusiast. 
I think issues like bad sheds and hydration are because the vivarium isn't set up properly and often not to the basic level recommended in the books. It's very hard to get a heat globe, dimming thermostat set up wrong and they generally don't dry out the air like CHE or bake the shed like a heat cord.

The one problem I have had so far was a prolapse or so I thought. A visit to the reptile vet and it turned out to be an abscess that it had passed out and was still joined to it's insides. An abscess can occur for a few reasons, but the most common is a bit of bone scratching the intestines. Often with enough heat they can heal for these scratches, but other times even with heat it gets infected and an abscess forms.


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## lithopian (Aug 29, 2013)

I know, right? It was the weirdest thing - I've got photos of him somewhere. The tongue was slack and poked out just behind the fork. From memory, it cleared up within a few hours as he warmed up. 

I agree on the bad sheds/hydration issue although in this particular case why would one individual have a problem and the other shed perfectly whilst housed together? Inexperience was my downfall; I have not encountered a problem I have not been confident dealing with since then. I also make a habit of reading other people's "OMG please help me" threads in the hope that I might learn something I could encounter in the future. 

I hope you're not concerned about your hatchie now hahaha. She's doing very well and I would classify myself as a competent keeper now


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

lithopian said:


> I know, right? It was the weirdest thing - I've got photos of him somewhere. The tongue was slack and poked out just behind the fork. From memory, it cleared up within a few hours as he warmed up.
> 
> I agree on the bad sheds/hydration issue although in this particular case why would one individual have a problem and the other shed perfectly whilst housed together? Inexperience was my downfall; I have not encountered a problem I have not been confident dealing with since then. I also make a habit of reading other people's "OMG please help me" threads in the hope that I might learn something I could encounter in the future.
> 
> I hope you're not concerned about your hatchie now hahaha. She's doing very well and I would classify myself as a competent keeper now



People like you never worry me. You are enthusiastic and like to learn as much as you can. Just like how you read all the "OMG" threads  The most rewarding part, well second most rewarding part of breeding pythons in WA is helping people set up and get their first snakes. Helping them sort out the heating and little problems that come with learning about reptiles. 
I have to admit I do screen potential buyers, to see how much they have looked into how to keep a snake and also I generally ignore emails or texts that look like someone fell on a keyboard. "Hay iz seen uz hav a snake 4 sale, can I plz c it?" That stuff will get you no where lol. 
Also I love seeing the pics of my babies grow  I either see them on FB (like yours) or some people email me with updates. How much fun are snakes right!?


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## lithopian (Aug 29, 2013)

They’re awesome, love them. 

I can imagine watching the progeny grow would be cool; do you want personality updates too? haha. Mac is my fastest eater- on the weekend she beat the record (stimmie from 2009) of downing a hopper mouse in 1 minute 40 seconds. It's the fastest I've ever clocked - the stimmie record was over 3 minutes.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

lithopian said:


> They’re awesome, love them.
> 
> I can imagine watching the progeny grow would be cool; do you want personality updates too? haha. Mac is my fastest eater- on the weekend she beat the record (stimmie from 2009) of downing a hopper mouse in 1 minute 40 seconds. It's the fastest I've ever clocked - the stimmie record was over 3 minutes.


haha  No need for personal updates. Yeah I keep a few just to watch them grow. I don't think I will ever not have a hatchy growing out at home. 
I think Jess is still struggling to get hers feeding again


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## lithopian (Aug 29, 2013)

Yeah, don't think I'd be able to resist either. 

Perhaps she should stop handling him... was it feeding alright for you?


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

lithopian said:


> Yeah, don't think I'd be able to resist either.
> 
> Perhaps she should stop handling him... was it feeding alright for you?


Yeah was one of my best feeders. Even fed it in front of her a few weeks before hand... I've sent a few PM's off but haven't heard back from the last one. 
I think a breeders worst nightmare is selling a hatchie and the new owner not being able to get it feeding. You just know that something isn't right yet. Either too cold, handled too much, too large and enclosure etc. It's just trying to pin point it and fix the situation.


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## lithopian (Aug 29, 2013)

That sucks... bit concerning. Hopefully she makes a few changes and gets it right. Her clickclack looked pretty normal sized but she had a bit of trouble heating it originally didn't she. She also seemed to be handling it a fair bit when she got it. At least if it was feeding well it will have some condition. 

Of the three womas I bought from Di 2 are excellent feeders and the third will only eat inside its clickclack if you leave the mice in there overnight, even when you can tell it's hungry. It gets frightened when presented with food. It's about half the size of the other two though so i'm assuming she had some problems with it too. Jess will get the hang of it, don't worry.


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## hulloosenator (Aug 29, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> I think when applying for your reptile licence you should pass some sort of theory test about types of snakes, basic health, feeding & quarantine and then something about setting up enclosures and also get bitten by a snake.
> so many people buy snakes and get bitten and dont want it anymore.
> As it comes with the territory of being a snake owner ITS GOING TO HAPPEN one day or another so may as well kbow what your in for.



dont be so silly............ the world is full of nonsense paperwork as it is.............and i suppose you pay each time you apply and when you fail ... you must pay again next time you sit the test ???? do you work at the RTA ????
so you want all the nerds to be able to get a license first...??
absolutely not acceptable, and cant understand why anyone would agree with you


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## cathy1986 (Aug 29, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> dont be so silly............ the world is full of nonsense paperwork as it is.............and i suppose you pay each time you apply and when you fail ... you must pay again next time you sit the test ???? do you work at the RTA ????
> so you want all the nerds to be able to get a license first...??
> absolutely not acceptable, and cant understand why anyone would agree with you



Are you kidding me????? 

From Cathy


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## ShaunMorelia (Aug 29, 2013)

So this is the third thread I've read on here that seems to me that people are voicing their opinions on what other people are doing in their HOBBY.


I read someone saying that Pet Owners will never see past their enclosures and something about not being real herpetologists....
That might possibly be correct, but they most likely didn't get into the HOBBY to go field herping and re-naming species willy-nilly like Haymond Roser..
Maybe people have an interest in reptiles for what they are, their HOBBY, not for their natural history and trudging around the bush looking for them.


This interest they have is solely a HOBBY, a HOBBY called Herpeteculture.


I came into the HOBBY after keeping a few blue tongues and bearded dragons, didn't even know forums existed, didn't know there was information about husbandry on the Internet.
So I did what I thought was best for the animals, as it was my HOBBY.
I successfully kept those animals until they died many years on.
Now my focus is on keeping and breeding the animals I would like to keep in my HOBBY.
Any thing that I don't want to keep will be moved on to another person's HOBBY collection.


A HOBBY is what someone wants it to be.
That's a great things about a HOBBY, you can do what you like as it's yours.
These animals in our collections have very little, if any, conversational value. No matter what you think, there is never going to be a call to private keepers to help replenish wild stocks.


I think this brings up another debate/discussion that would be much better suited than discussing what others are doing, planning to do or haven't done...


Should we need licencing through National Parks to keep our animals?
Should we have to pay licencing fee to our local councils like we do with cats and dogs?


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> I think when applying for your reptile licence you should pass some sort of theory test about types of snakes, basic health, feeding & quarantine and then something about setting up enclosures and also get bitten by a snake.
> so many people buy snakes and get bitten and dont want it anymore.
> As it comes with the territory of being a snake owner ITS GOING TO HAPPEN one day or another so may as well kbow what your in for.


It's not a new idea, but one I agree with after seeing far too many people get reptiles and not know how to look after them. 
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/compulsory-reptile-course-96343/
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/reptile-licenses-58377/


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## Tesla (Aug 29, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Tesla* and *Trimer*, I don't mind that you strongly disagree with me, but having read your response I am confused as to what exactly it is you disagree with in what I said.
> 
> 
> At no stage did I indicate that there was not good information available on the net or within APS threads. What I said was that someone with no background is unable to discern what is good and what is rubbish, hence the need for clear guidance. Today I tried a little exercise and read the first six google sites for "Bearded Dragon care". There were difference in information on diet, contradictions on substrate use, different supplement regimes, one only talked about food size, differences in recommended lighting, recommended temperatures varied, the initial enclosure varied from an aquarium to a professionally produced viv and so on. An easily repeated investigation if you have the time. This is why I stated that newbies need "firm guidance" (not "spoon feeding" as you have mentioned)


You seem to want to enforce the "If I can't find it in 2 minutes it not worth my time reading" thought process, if the first six websites don't contain the information you need then you continue to look until you find it, that or learn to use google properly with specific search queries. With the above will come a median on how things are done, for example, if a person types in to google "what to keep a hatchling snake in" and there are 3000 posts which say click clack and 1 that says too keep them in an empty cigarette packet it's obvious what the most fitting/widely used method is. If the person researching doesn't know what a click clack is, than again, it's only a simple google search away to not only find pictures but tutorials on how to make them. As stated in one of my earlier responses a little initiative and common sense never hurt anybody. 



Bluetongue1 said:


> To illustrate in real life, not that long ago a newbie wanted help on looking after a hatchling woma, particularly the sort of enclosure. A number of people responded and I gave her the the web address of the Southern Cross Articles by Doc Rock and the APS thread on How to Make a Click Clack. A few days later she replied, thanking all who had helped, saying the information provided was just what she needed, in particularly the click clack thread which was a huge help. She was given clear guidance! She did the work. She reaped the benefits. I am at a loss as to how "fast tracking possession" or "spoon feeding" can be extracted from that.


This correlates with my above response. So if you sent her the link to the exact article what "work" did she do? I just googled "how to make a click clack" and the first result was an article from this forum and titled "Guide to building a click-clack (Dial-up warning), so that link not only shows what a click clack is but also how to make one step by step.




Bluetongue1 said:


> What does confuse me is that you made a sarcastic remark about breeders following up on a sale and in the very breath you say: "Don't get me wrong I am always willing to help out a buyer and even give a follow up service should the need arise, I will also answer questions online regarding the husbandry of species which don't have much in the way of information...


I don't see what is confusing about that? If someone was to buy a snake from me which they were having difficulties with I would assist them, I won't however school them on herpetology and husbandry prior to the sale and I combat this by asking buyers certain questions before I will sell to them to, If I feel the person doesn't have the ability or knowledge to keep one of my animals I won't sell to them simply and plain. 
At the end of the day the general day-to-day care is the responsibility of the new owner because that's how ownership works, it's not a joint custody agreement.
Regarding the species which are hard to find information on- when was the last time you saw an in-depth guide to keep species such as Carlia or Ctenotus? These are the types of questions I don't mind answering because there just isn't much in the way of husbandry for this species.




Bluetongue1 said:


> A similar thing with my suggestion of including a book as part of the sale. You say the book should have been purchased and used ahead of time and yet draw an analogy with driving that belittles it worth. The ideal situation is that a potential purchaser gets the book to read first. If that is not possible then it is part of the transaction and it is then encumbent on the buyer to do the reading ASAP. While it may not be the ideal situation it is a realistic and desirable alternative compared to selling snakes with no information provided.


I still disagree with this whole concept completely and I feel the only good that will come from it is newbies being even more lazy than they are now regarding prior knowledge (And yes, I know not all newbies are like that). And unfortunately I can only see the problem getting worse in NSW with reptiles being traded in shops. I understand that your intentions are good but what you propose relies completely on the new buyers shoulders, if they couldn't be bothered researching before why would they bother even opening the book other than to look at pictures to choose their next victim in their collection, and thus the circle begins.



Bluetongue1 said:


> It does appear that you have a presumption that those intending to purchase a reptile should know they need to find out about their specific care ahead of purchase. On this point we clearly do differ. It is not an uncommon experience for people to purchase a pet they know nothing about and to have no hassles with... dogs, cats, budgies, canaries, goldfish, rats, mice, guinea pigs to name a few of the more common ones. Everything you need to know, and what you need to keep them, can be packaged up in the one transaction. In addition to that a lot of people think of reptiles as able to look after themselves because it is not uncommon to see them in your garden, down the park, on the golf course etc. Combine that perception with previous experience of easy to keep uncomplicated pets, and you have an unwitting potential purchaser with no idea at all that reptiles do have some very specific requirements. So if the seller doesn't tell them, how do they find out?


To be honest this seems like nothing other than justification for the people that neglect their new additions, anyone who assumes what you have described should not only never own pets but should be committed. I see hawks around my local area yet I know if I was to put one in an aviary I would need to know what it eats, how often to feed it, what perches they like, handling and general husbandry techniques because that's what anyone with half a brain cell who cared about the welfare of their new animal would do. I think your analogy is not only very naive but dangerous because it allows people to use ignorance as an excuse for their own laziness and lack of effort.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 29, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> I think when applying for your reptile licence you should pass some sort of theory test about types of snakes, basic health, feeding & quarantine and then something about setting up enclosures and also get bitten by a snake.



Why the hell would anyone want more government interference and red tape to pursue a hobby? I think people should have to sit a theory test before being allowed to have children,to me that would be a worthy thing to implement.

As far as the keeping of any pet goes unfortunately there are those who should be limited to pet rocks only and it has always been the case.


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## cathy1986 (Aug 29, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Why the hell would anyone want more government interference and red tape to pursue a hobby? I think people should have to sit a theory test before being allowed to have children,to me that would be a worthy thing to implement.
> 
> As far as the keeping of any pet goes unfortunately there are those who should be limited to pet rocks only and it has always been the case.



I never mentioned anything to do with the government and I agree with you about the kids thing 

From Cathy


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## Ramsayi (Aug 29, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> I never mentioned anything to do with the government and I agree with you about the kids thing
> 
> From Cathy



Who do you think you are dealing with when you apply for a license then?


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> I never mentioned anything to do with the government and I agree with you about the kids thing
> 
> From Cathy


I do not think that people should pass a test before getting a reptile license unless it is a dangerous to human species , I am not aware of any other pet in Australia where the owner needs to be licensed but can see an advantage of licensing dangerous species and have a training packaged attached to this license. Who would you have as the body in charge of the licensing if it wasn't the government?


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## lithopian (Aug 29, 2013)

It is a somewhat totalitarian approach, but I think it might affect the numbers of snakes that suffer negligent behaviour because of ignorance.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

People are talking about two different things here. Cathy is talking about ensuring the animals well being. As we see loads of people who get a license and don't know how to look after the reptiles. Anyone with an ounce of empathy for reptiles can understand this. You know... The usual no UV for dragons, insufficient heat for their reptiles. Not light cages to prevent burns etc etc... 

The other people are talking about the negatives of more regulation. Without the same thought of the animals well being but rather what it will do to people wanting to keep reptiles. The cost and other possible implications such a thing could have on the hobby.

I don't see what's so hard about an online test while you are filling out an application for your first ever reptile license.

I also think "why have licenses anyway". Most people cant find a python if they wanted too. They are just pet keepers. Plus if people were going to take from the wild illegally they already would. A piece of paper isn't going to stop that. In fact you would be crazy to get a license if you were a poacher, since the authorities can come and inspect.
The bird keepers have had to deal with wildlife licenses for longer. Though the native birds off license hardly get taken from the wild do they?? Are people running around stealing galahs and budgerigars?


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

I do not see the need for a test before getting a license or in fact a license at all except for maybe dangerous species and then I think it should be mandatory for a license and training coarse like for a gun. There are probably more pet fish killed each year by far than there are reptiles killed and then there are the puppy mills that mistreat dogs, why single out reptiles and their keepers?


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I do not see the need for a test before getting a license or in fact a license at all except for maybe dangerous species and then I think it should be mandatory for a license and training coarse like for a gun. There are probably more pet fish killed each year by far than there are reptiles killed and then there are the puppy mills that mistreat dogs, why single out reptiles and their keepers?



So what would be the best solution to make new keepers aware that reptiles require special environments? They are not like dogs and cats, or even fish. But need a controlled temperature gradient, some need UV. These are things most people do not know and at present they don't need to know. They just get a license and get an animal. If you are fine with beardies shaking and slowly dying from lack of uv. Then I see your point.


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

Snowman said:


> So what would be the best solution to make new keepers aware that reptiles require special environments? They are not like dogs and cats, or even fish. But need a controlled temperature gradient, some need UV. These are things most people do not know and at present they don't need to know. They just get a license and get an animal. If you are fine with beardies shaking and slowly dying from lack of uv. Then I see your point.


I am not sure on what the answer is but I don't think that a simple test is the answer. I think that there will be just as many ways around the test as there would be questions on it. There is also too many different species with differing needs to make one test suits all. Imagine for example a monitor with a hot spot of 32 degrees or a diamond with a 12 hour basking spot of 50-70 degrees. I also think that fish , especially the marine or discus varieties are just as hard if not harder to keep than reptiles. I am not fine with mistreated animals from any species but don't think the simple test will fix it. I like that people are passionate about it this topic and would be on board with a solution that I thought would work and I think one thing that we can do from within the hobby is if we breed an animal to make sure one of our offspring is sold to an owner that has an understanding of the requirements of the species and capabilities (including financial) to properly look after it. It is quite easy for a person who knows reptiles to ask a few simple questions and be able to gauge to level of knowledge the person has. Plenty like to do that on this site to newbies as we have all seen.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I am not sure on what the answer is but I don't think that a simple test is the answer. I think that there will be just as many ways around the test as there would be questions on it. There is also too many different species with differing needs to make one test suits all. Imagine for example a monitor with a hot spot of 32 degrees or a diamond with a 12 hour basking spot of 50-70 degrees. I also think that fish , especially the marine or discus varieties are just as hard if not harder to keep than reptiles. I am not fine with mistreated animals from any species but don't think the simple test will fix it. I like that people are passionate about it this topic and would be on board with a solution that I thought would work and I think one thing that we can do from within the hobby is if we breed an animal to make sure one of our offspring is sold to an owner that has an understanding of the requirements of the species and capabilities (including financial) to properly look after it. It is quite easy for a person who knows reptiles to ask a few simple questions and be able to gauge to level of knowledge the person has. Plenty like to do that on this site to newbies as we have all seen.


I don't think it would be specific. Just general basic husbandry. It's just to make new license holders aware that there are special requirements for them and that keeping reptiles is different to keeping mammals.
Why do we test learner drivers? They're going to learn on the road next to a licensed driver anyway. Exactly what you have said could be applied the same to learner drivers really. A simple test isn't going to stop them from doing things wrong. So why have it? Obviously the test is there to ensure they have a basic understanding of how the roads and rules work before actually driving. 
A test that makes sure people knew the basics of keeping reptiles before getting a license should have a similar outcome.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

For me I think well if you are going to have licenses and regulations then we may as well make it worth while and benifit the animals in captivity. 
There are no licenses needed for humans having babies. But if there was then a test would be a good start for applying for a license. 
Really what licenses can we get that don't require a test? I needed one for my boat license, my elecrtical license, my drivers license, my open cabling license, etc etc. with out it may as well not have a license.


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

Snowman said:


> I don't think it would be specific. Just general basic husbandry. It's just to make new license holders aware that there are special requirements for them and that keeping reptiles is different to keeping mammals.
> Why do we test learner drivers? They're going to learn on the road next to a licensed driver anyway. Exactly what you have said could be applied the same to learner drivers really. A simple test isn't going to stop them from doing things wrong. So why have it? Obviously the test is there to ensure they have a basic understanding of how the roads and rules work when driving.


I learner driver could kill someone else or themselves if they do not give way or stop when required. I know a reptile may die if not kept correctly but I do place human life above an animals. I think the onus should be on the person selling the animal to make sure they are handing the life of an animal to someone that has a basic understanding of the animals needs.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I learner driver could kill someone else or themselves if they do not give way or stop when required. I know a reptile may die if not kept correctly but I do place human life above an animals. I think the onus should be on the person selling the animal to make sure they are handing the life of an animal to someone that has a basic understanding of the animals needs.


Exactly!! The animal could die!!! Is a short test similar to the learners permit really that much to ask to save a few animals lives? Is it really that much of an inconvenience to have to pass it once in your entire life? 
Have to wonder???


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Exactly!! The animal could die!!! Is a short test similar to the learners permit really that much to ask to save a few animals lives? Is it really that much of an inconvenience to have to pass it once in your entire life?
> Have to wonder???


I am not looking at it as an inconvenience but more doubting whether it will actually save animals lives.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I am not looking at it as an inconvenience but more doubting whether it will actually save animals lives.


So how exactly does the learners permit save lives?


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

Snowman said:


> So how exactly does the learners permit save lives?


It is a supervised test where cheating is very limited. To do this for reptile licenses would cost a fortune.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> It is a supervised test where cheating is very limited. To do this for reptile licenses would cost a fortune.


Not if its just an online test as part of obtaining your first basic license. 
The info on the learner a permit is to make the people aware. Like wise a first time reptile keeper could be made aware via a test in a similar fashion. 
Things like:
Dragons and monitors require uv 
reptiles need a thermal gradient 
All reptiles require fresh water. 
all reptiles need a source of heating
heat can kill a reptile. 

A lot of things that are common sense to us. Are not known or even heard of to many first time reptile keepers. 

For example. It's just about making someone who knows nothing about reptiles have a good starting point. Like a learner driver before they get behind the wheel. 

Im not saying its the solution. But I think the idea has merit and people didn't need to react to Cathy in such a violent manner.


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

Too cheeky to leave up...


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Not if its just an online test as part of obtaining your first basic license.
> The info on the learner a permit is to make the people aware. Like wise a first time reptile keeper could be made aware via a test in a similar fashion.
> Things like:
> Dragons and monitors require uv
> ...


Maybe it would help but I feel a lot would still slip through the cracks, I think it was quite rude the way Cathy was shot down as well. I was more looking for a solution and didn't see that being the solution. There is also the problem of implementing it correctly, there are probably more ways that will work for keeping reptiles than ones that will not and who will decide which one is the correct answer. Like you said it would have to be more an awareness thing rather then specific answer thing for it to work. I can see it adding cost to the license without a lot of gain.


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## Tesla (Aug 29, 2013)

ShaunMorelia said:


> So this is the third thread I've read on here that seems to me that people are voicing their opinions on what other people are doing in their HOBBY.
> 
> 
> I read someone saying that Pet Owners will never see past their enclosures and something about not being real herpetologists....
> ...



I can only assume that you hate RH because of his venomoids, yet you keep a jag which has a known neurological birth defect. My question to you is, what makes you any better? Is mental anguish better than physical anguish in your books?
Regarding your comments on the release of captive bred animals back in to the hobby, are you sure of that? What do you base this on because I'm pretty sure they haven't ruled that possibility out.

To a lot of people this isn't a HOBBY (I can read lowercase by the way), it's a way of life. A lot of us don't just see the pretty colours of mulga food or see keeping reptiles as something that makes us tough or unique, but hey, you go champion!


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## Snowman (Aug 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Maybe it would help but I feel a lot would still slip through the cracks, I think it was quite rude the way Cathy was shot down as well. I was more looking for a solution and didn't see that being the solution. There is also the problem of implementing it correctly, there are probably more ways that will work for keeping reptiles than ones that will not and who will decide which one is the correct answer. Like you said it would have to be more an awareness thing rather then specific answer thing for it to work. I can see it adding cost to the license without a lot of gain.



How much more can it go up? I'm already on $350 a year.


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## andynic07 (Aug 29, 2013)

Snowman said:


> How much more can it go up? I'm already on $350 a year.


Maybe yours will come down with the introduction of the test. hahaha. That there is one reason that the WA government will fight tooth and nail to keep separate licenses to the rest of the states.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 29, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> dont be so silly............ the world is full of nonsense paperwork as it is.............and i suppose you pay each time you apply and when you a... you must pay again next time you sit the test ???? do you work at the RTA ????
> so you want all the nerds to be able to get a license first...??
> absolutely not acceptable, and cant understand why anyone would agree with you


It is personal comments such as the RTA quip that detract from the the forum as a whole and this post specifically.

It seems that you are defining the term "nerd", through your usage, as anyone who knows enough about general care of reptiles to pass the test first up. That is NOT my understanding of the term. You have given zero reason why it would be unacceptable and I am left to draw my own conclusions as to why you "can't understand why...".


If you had utilised the RTA reference appropriately then you could have pointed out that they provide an information booklet of all the basic facts and examples of the application thereof, that they expect one to know for the theory test. Now that would have been a worthwhile contribution to the discussion. 


Blue


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 30, 2013)

Tesla said:


> You seem to want to enforce the "If I can't find it in 2 minutes it not worth my time reading" thought process, if the first six websites don't contain the information you need then you continue to look until you find it, that or learn to use google properly with specific search queries. to make one step by step...
> To be honest this seems like nothing other than justification for the people that neglect their new additions, anyone who assumes what you have described should not only never own pets but should be committed. ....
> I think your analogy is not only very naive but dangerous because it allows people to use ignorance as an excuse for their own laziness and lack of effort.


If you can extract: "You seem to want to enforce the "If I can't find it in 2 minutes it not worth my time reading" thought process..." from what I have said, then I am clearly wasting wasting my time. The same applies with: "...if the first six websites don't contain the information you need then you continue to look until you find it..." when the point being made is they do not know what what information they need, so how the hell are they supposed to know when they find it? Not even unsolicited posts from newbies reaffirming that experience have managed to get that across.


You state "...or learn to use google properly with specific search queries". I am the one who used google. Does this mean I should have entered "A Guide to Caring for Bearded Dragons" and the first website given would definitely be the one I am looking for? And if I had heard about click-clacks and wanted to buy one but recognise I need to know about them first, should I enter: "A guide to buying a click-clack"? or maybe: "A guide to click-clacks". I also fail to see how use of a reptile forum shows lack of initiative or lack of common sense. I would have interpreted these actions from a rank beginner as being just the opposite.


Apart from drawing considerably more a very long bow to arrive at the above inferences, whilst you persist in believing that somehow everyone should have what I can only describe as an intuitative understanding of reptile keeping, rather than beginning from a point of almost total ignorance or even having developed misconceptions, we shall quite clearly never agree.

Finally, the last two quoted sentences are absolute gems. No comment from me required.


Blue


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## ShaunMorelia (Sep 2, 2013)

Tesla said:


> I can only assume that you hate RH because of his venomoids, yet you keep a jag which has a known neurological birth defect. My question to you is, what makes you any better? Is mental anguish better than physical anguish in your books?



I've never said that I "hated" this Haymond Roser bloke, and The reason I bought him up wasn't because of his venom gland removal methods, but as to his "re-naming" of animals. So I don't see why you want to bring up jags and try and rope me into a different topic for debate.

Regarding your comments on the release of captive bred animals back in to the hobby, are you sure of that? What do you base this on because I'm pretty sure they haven't ruled that possibility out.


Ok, to go into more in-depth about why I think they will never call on Private collections for re-stocking wild populations.
- It's a private collection once it's in someone's private collection, they can pretty much do what they want.
- Can't be positive they are pure locality unless poached and only bred those poached animals together.
- Zoo's and other Wildlife Parks are given permits to collect and create breeding programs to re-stock wild populations.
- Various licencing regulations throughout the country creates discrepancies. (e.g. Victoria's licencing up until recently, only had M.s.spilota, M.s.Varigata as the subspecies of Morelia spilota. As did most states at some stage.)
- With success of captive breeding by a reptile park with the Rough scaled Python, and the Oenpelli project being undertaken by Gavin Bedford, gives the government bodies reason to continue with that approach, as they are successful and bring much needed funds into their departments..





Tesla said:


> To a lot of people this isn't a HOBBY (I can read lowercase by the way), it's a way of life. A lot of us don't just see the pretty colours of mulga food or see keeping reptiles as something that makes us tough or unique, but hey, you go champion!



The point of my post, is that to most (I would hazzard a guess at 98% of reptile keepers in Australia), this is a HOBBY to them, myself included. I enjoy keeping my animals inside my house, I don't have reptiles because it makes me "tough or unique". I keep them because I have an interest in these animals personally, just like my dogs, chickens and a few others.

The great thing about hobbies is that each person has their own way that they like it.
You may feed your mulgas "pretty" animals, others may prefer to feed the "bland" animals to theirs.

It seems as though you've taken my post personally, as it comes across from you text to be having a go at me.
That was not the case, hence why I didn't quote your post or put your tag name to it.

Thanks
Shaun.


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## Tesla (Sep 2, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> If you can extract: "You seem to want to enforce the "If I can't find it in 2 minutes it not worth my time reading" thought process..." from what I have said, then I am clearly wasting wasting my time. The same applies with: "...if the first six websites don't contain the information you need then you continue to look until you find it..." when the point being made is they do not know what what information they need, so how the hell are they supposed to know when they find it? Not even unsolicited posts from newbies reaffirming that experience have managed to get that across.
> 
> 
> You state "...or learn to use google properly with specific search queries". I am the one who used google. Does this mean I should have entered "A Guide to Caring for Bearded Dragons" and the first website given would definitely be the one I am looking for? And if I had heard about click-clacks and wanted to buy one but recognise I need to know about them first, should I enter: "A guide to buying a click-clack"? or maybe: "A guide to click-clacks". I also fail to see how use of a reptile forum shows lack of initiative or lack of common sense. I would have interpreted these actions from a rank beginner as being just the opposite.
> ...



Do you really need to know anything about herpetology to type in "what do I keep a baby snake in" or "diamond python care" or "heating a diamond python", "diamond python enclosure size", "diamond python food" etc etc etc. What pre-education do you really need to search the above? Apart from very basic literary and computer skills you need to know absolutely nothing, even my 9 year old son searches basic queries on google for pictures for projects and information on video games yet magically has never had any experience with giraffes or been an Italian plumber who runs around jumping on turtles collecting coins  but he seems to get by rather well. .

The comments from me you quoted are 100% true, you are doing nothing more than promoting laziness by handing people everything on a silver platter.


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## Tesla (Sep 2, 2013)

ShaunMorelia said:


> I've never said that I "hated" this Haymond Roser bloke, and The reason I bought him up wasn't because of his venom gland removal methods, but as to his "re-naming" of animals. So I don't see why you want to bring up jags and try and rope me into a different topic for debate.
> 
> Regarding your comments on the release of captive bred animals back in to the hobby, are you sure of that? What do you base this on because I'm pretty sure they haven't ruled that possibility out.
> 
> ...



So what if he tries to reclassify animals, how does that effect you as a self confessed pet keeper who has no interest in herpetology? I may not agree with his taxa but just because you or I don't like it doesn't mean he has to stop, the same way Richard wells has been called a cancer of taxonomy yet is still respected by many people like myself and thousands of others, a lack of a biology or scientific degree doesn't make someone else's amateur work any less valid. 

Regarding the release of captive animals, again, if you don't have any interest in herpetology how many articles or papers could you have realistically read on the subject? There is a 160 something page report on P. barbata which claimed wild populations of males are going sterile, it also covers possible release of captive bred stock in the future so please explain how a zoo is going to manage to breed a species which is sterile? 
I think you also completely misunderstand the way a native breeding program works, a private body such as a zoo or facility will receive a grant and be paid for their work so I don't understand how that actually brings any money in for the government if they are the ones funding the effort?Did you really think zoos took rare animals in because they are kind hearted? 

I haven't taken your post personally just taken it as someone who obviously hasn't done nearly enough research on the subject to form any type of opinion on the matter, I think my above argument shows that.


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## GeckoJosh (Sep 2, 2013)

I am more than happy to educate my customers on husbandry prior to purchase, in fact I prefer that they ask me rather than get the wrong advice from somewhere else.
The majority of people who buy of me have never kept geckos/dragons etc before and although many have done basic research I find it is often incorrect due to the massive amount of misinformation out there. 

I have found that with a little guidance these "noobs" more often than not become successful reptile keepers and end up embracing the hobby.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 3, 2013)

Thank you *Tesla*. I did sit back and have a good laugh at it all. 


I know a little bit about herpetology. What I do know a lot about is teaching and learning - having devoted well over 30 years to training, in-servicing and putting it into practice. Yet our discussion has been you informing me about teaching and learning practices. You have admit, that's pretty funny!

Cheers,
Blue


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## Newhere (Sep 9, 2013)

People learn in different ways, if someone cares enough and puts in enough effort to find a forum so they can seek the advice of people who know what they are talking about then good on em I say. At least they are trying to get some information to look after the animal and not neglecting it like some people do.


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