# Pygmy freshwater croc



## CrazyNut (Jan 30, 2016)

Hi guys,
So I know that currently the pygmy freshwater crocs are restricted to the high escarments within the Northern territory, are half the size of regular freshwater crocs and that research involves mesauring and collecting tissue samples. What other information is there on these spectacular crocodillians? Are they set to reach new species or sub species status (if they haven't already)?

kind regards
CN


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## mrkos (Jan 30, 2016)

Not sure mate but pretty interested in the potential species saw somewhere how they have bounced back from the cane toad invasion and developed a means of eating them upside down


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## ronhalling (Jan 31, 2016)

[MENTION=23122]mrkos[/MENTION], good information but wrong animal, it is the crows that have discovered that they can successfully eat the cane toads upside down thereby negating the poison glands, me thinks a croc of any type might have a bit of a problem dexterity wise eating a cane toad upside down because unfortunately they eat there prey whole the poison glands would still be in the picture, not trying to be a smart **** just giving correct info.  ....................Ron


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## mrkos (Jan 31, 2016)

I think I know the difference between a crow and a croc Ron but you are right they are not flipping them upside down but nibbling off their back legs scientists are finding more dead cane toads with their back legs chewed upon in areas where the Pygmy crocs numbers have bounced back. I suggest you google it and you will find a few articles published about scientists latest findings but what would they know hey they are only studying the animal. Cheers


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## ronhalling (Feb 1, 2016)

Lol i find it hard to believe that a croc of any size or type could "Nibble" the legs off anything, they just don't have the dentition for it, freshwater crocs in particular have smallish pointy teeth spaced in such a way that they can be used to trap fish etc and then swallow whole, i spent some time in the Kimberly chucking sooty grunter to these so called nibblers (Freshies) and not once did i observe this so called new eating technique, maybe i should have thrown them a cane toad and then the outcome might have been different.  .....................Ron


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## Shotta (Feb 1, 2016)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-17/dwarf-crocodiles-learning-to-fight-back-to-cane-toad/5896738


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## cement (Feb 1, 2016)

So whats the mail now on these crocs? Are they legit a new sub species, of freshy or are they just stunted because of the lack of food in their habitat, which is what I heard a few years ago.??


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## butters (Feb 1, 2016)

I am lucky enough to work somewhere that has both normal and Pygmy freshies and can say there are obvious differences between them when you have them side by side. If they were just stunted you would imagine that once given a steady supply of food and all else is equal they would reach normal sizes. That doesn't seem to be the case. Ours are at least 5 years old and still well under a metre in length. 

I don't know their exact length but can measure them on the weekend. Visually the head shape is different and there seem to be differences in scalation. I can see I'm going to have to take a closer look and make note of the differences. 
I wouldn't be surprised if down the track they are described as a different species or at the very least a recognized subspecies.


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## BredliFreak (Feb 2, 2016)

As for Pygmy crocs I know a guy who owns one or two and they are pretty darn small and cute. They do appear different when compared to other crocs side-by-side. I would like to see papers on whether they are going to be a species, subspecies of freshies or just a locale.

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## butters (Feb 2, 2016)

It surprises me,or maybe it doesn't that we have so few species of crocodilians in Australia given our size and topography. Other regions where they occur often have more. 

Saltwater crocs travel huge Distances so it's no surprise they are uniform across their range. Freshies tend to be more sedentary and there are often breaks between suitable habitat so you should expect there to be more variation. Maybe there is and we just haven't noticed or perhaps they travel more than we think.

Crocodilians occur in areas that toads are found naturally and they haven't been wiped out by them so perhaps there is hope for ours.


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## Allan (Feb 3, 2016)

butters said:


> It surprises me,or maybe it doesn't that we have so few species of crocodilians in Australia given our size and topography. Other regions where they occur often have more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BredliFreak (Feb 3, 2016)

As far as Pygmy crocs are concerned, is there anyone out there trying to prove out different genetics in these guys? Would be popular pets because they don't get too big I guess.

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## pythoninfinite (Feb 3, 2016)

The problem with crocs is that lots of us can't keep them, as much as we would like to... I'd love to have a pygmy Freshie or two, but alas I live in NSW. I love Salties too, but they get too big too fast. I did have a couple of Freshies in WA in the 1970s (caught for me and shipped by the wildlife officers in Kununurra for $20!) and they were delightful and very interesting animals. Sadly I eventually gave them to the Perth Zoo, where they died within six months, from neglect or lack of interest I guess...

Jamie


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## BredliFreak (Feb 3, 2016)

Lucky for me at the Canberra Reptile zoo they have a couple of pygmys which are awesome


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## ronhalling (Feb 3, 2016)

_following is the link shotta put up for freshies eating cane toads _http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-1...e-toad/5896738

_the next links is for the crows eating cane toads that i put up _http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-09-15/toads-fall-victim-to-crows-in-nt/670524
looks like you have to put my link in a browser

_When people read them both they will see that the 1st 1 is a theory and the second 1 is a fact which is why i posted what i did, make of them what you all wish but how about we all start acting like adults
_


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## BredliFreak (Feb 4, 2016)

I don't see why we shouldnt keep them apart from idiots releasing them. They get to a managable size which is good since most laws where you can keep crocs makes sure you sell them to a croc farm, whereas with pygmys they wouldnt need to. I guess it'll probably be like the deleani case where authorities don't want to have them in captivity full stop.


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## butters (Feb 4, 2016)

They are in captivity. I'm not up on other state legislation but in the states where you can keep crocs I don't see why you couldn't. At present they are still just freshies.


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## BredliFreak (Feb 4, 2016)

Trouble would be finding a legitimate Pygmy for sale


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## butters (Feb 4, 2016)

Zoo surplus would be the only legit source at the moment I would imagine. That's where ours came from. In queensland you can't own a croc on a rec license but you can on a demonstrators. Even then I think you need 2 years documented experience before they will let you have crocs.


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## GBWhite (Feb 4, 2016)

Ron is correct in that Adam Britton's theory is just that and crows eating the bellies out of toads is proven.

Despite what some believe I personally doubt that pygmy crocs (in fact any crocs) have the cognitive ability to consciously choose to just chew the legs off toads. Seems a pretty ridiculous theory to me but then again it would be very interesting if he can prove it.

Some papers have been written alleging that salties have learnt to distinguish between toads and frogs but I don't know how they have proven this given that salties appear immune to toads anyway.

I've been doing a little digging at from what I have read it appears that species of Carabid ground beetles are know to feed on frogs and this has been recorded as occurring in Australia (Robinson 1989) (Littlejohn & Wainer 1978 ) 8). Other information indicates that they feed on toads and that remains of partially eaten frogs are a good sign of their activity in an area. Maybe this might account for the number of dismembered toads discovered at the site.

A more reasonable explanation to their apparent immunity maybe that toads are being consumed as secondary food items, throughout different stages of the crocs growth cycles through predation on diving beetles, water scorpions, dragonflies, crayfish and dock spiders that are all know to prey on Cane Toad tadpoles (and in some cases adult toads). 

On another note, I've also heard of instances where RBB's and Keelbacks have been observed scrapping dead toads off road surfaces and eating them with no ill effect.


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## mrkos (Feb 5, 2016)

. Gb white I find your post interesting and seems to make good sense. Crocs have evolved over Millenia and will probably outlive the human race. The cane toad invasion is just another minor hurdle in their evolution. Please note that is only my theory only.


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## BredliFreak (Feb 5, 2016)

@GBWhite I agree with you there, seeing as crocs are garbage guts they'll probably eat anything that they can and overtime they would have evolved immunity to toxins. I have my doubts with the pygmy though seeing as it can only tackle smaller prey but perhaps toxins in other frogs and small fish might disprove that theory.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 5, 2016)

*Thanks and GROW UP!*

in regards to cane toads thing I saw brought up from the little knowlege I have on the topic I did watch a program which claimed that it was the crocs eating the back legs of the cane toads. I believe this was said from a witnessed incident and tethmarks found in the remains. Unfortunetly my knowledge does not extend further then this in regards to crocs and cane toads. My opiuion is that they would be intelegent enough to comprehend which parts of a toad should not be eaten.


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## butters (Feb 5, 2016)

I saw the same program and a quick google search will provide links. I'm going to compare them side by side tomorrow and see if I can pin down the differences.


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## GBWhite (Feb 6, 2016)

Hi guys,

I'm very interested in finding out more about this project of Adam Britton's regarding the pygmy crocs.

Could someone please provide a link to the program (or video) mentioned where someone alleges they witnessed a pygmy croc (or crocs) eating the rear legs off the toads.

I've done a search but can only get videos where Adam outline a request for crowd funding along with the purpose of the project which basically appears to be to obtain tissue samples for genetic testing.

I know that it mentioned in the article provided by the link in the original thread that someone (I believe it was Adam's wife, Erin) discovered the dismembered bodies of toads which included some with legs missing and what appeared to be tinny teeth marks but I can't find any footage about it.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

George.


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## butters (Feb 6, 2016)

I don't know that there is George. Only pictures showing dismbered toads. Not the two together or someone having witnessed it first hand.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 6, 2016)

The program was a kids show called "bushwacked" two mates go around Australia doing challanges this one was to catch a pygmy croc by hand. The guide and scientest they were with brought up the witnessed report and teeth mark points when they found a dead cane toad missing its back legs. That scientest could have been Mr Britton but I can't remeber off the top of my head.


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## BredliFreak (Feb 6, 2016)

Sounds interesting. Crocs apparently have the biggest intelligence for their brain size and they can be tamed to the equivalent of a family dog (with commands and all that). I guess they might have figured this out too


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## Herpo (Feb 6, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> The program was a kids show called "bushwacked" two mates go around Australia doing challanges this one was to catch a pygmy croc by hand. The guide and scientest they were with brought up the witnessed report and teeth mark points when they found a dead cane toad missing its back legs. That scientest could have been Mr Britton but I can't remeber off the top of my head.


I never really liked Bushwacked. So obviously staged. The info was valuable, but I hated the kid, Kamil. If you ignored him, great show.


Cheers,
Herpo


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## butters (Feb 6, 2016)

Maybe ask Gavin Bedford. I know he was organizing herp trips to the area. He may have more info.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 6, 2016)

I wouldn't use the word "tamed" as such since they are still wild animals (to say they aren't would infer demostication, a process which took thousands of years in terms of dogs). But yes they can be somewhat trained to preform certain actions for a food reward.... They ain't gonna be your best mate though haha (granteded there are exceptions where they become rather tolerable of people or even a spacific person such as the lady who owns a freshie down here in Melbourne).


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## BredliFreak (Feb 6, 2016)

Bushwacked was cringier than watching donald trump's speeches.

Fake-as. 

I mean they brought in a night tiger (northern form) instead of an eastern form. Some guy will pick it up (its harmless as the show said) but instead it would be a rough scale or something.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 6, 2016)

butters said:


> Maybe ask Gavin Bedford. I know he was organizing herp trips to the area. He may have more info.


Is his wife Fay Bedford by any chance? If so I have her on facebook lol


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Agree with you Herpo. Not the greatest show ever but it still has some pretty cool and intersting facts thrown in, well enough for me to watch it if I see it on haha. Night tigers can still do some damage if you are allergic and I think also have bad bacteria in there mouths as well?? (Correct me if I'm wrong haha colubrids not my fortè). Back to the crocs now. I wonder what would happen if you took a pygmy and released it into an area with a larger food source and normal freshies? Would it grow to the larger size? Assuming it isn't eaten by the other freshwater crocodiles and salties (again acording to the show the area surounding the pygmy crcocs get saltwater crocs in when the rains come and the water rises).


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## Firepac (Feb 6, 2016)

Okay, I have spent a lot of time cleaning up and merging the posts. I have reopened the thread. Please keep posts ON TOPIC and friendly.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 6, 2016)

BredliFreak said:


> Lucky for me at the Canberra Reptile zoo they have a couple of pygmys which are awesome


If I ever get my advanced down here in vic would love a freshie esspecailly a pygmy haha. At least venomous snake and crocodile regulations down here are pretty good. Species list is rather poor unfortunetly and there seems to mixes between advanced and basic lisences.

As for genetic research, the program bushwacked included a scene where tissue was collected from a scout at the reare of the tail. I beilive they also said they can take from several different scouts to form and indefication number/pattern


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## Stuart (Feb 6, 2016)

Heres something that seems like a worthy cause - http://www.pozible.com/project/28752 

NT News version of Crocs eating the legs off toads - http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/north...s/news-story/da8d180393e906938c0b35214bad4c33


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Feb 6, 2016)

I know its an exception and its not a salty but this blew me away https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7fZZUfvx0s 

makes me think having a somewhat tolerable and tame pygmy would be achievable.


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## PythonLegs (Feb 6, 2016)

Stuart said:


> Heres something that seems like a worthy cause - http://www.pozible.com/project/28752
> 
> NT News version of Crocs eating the legs off toads - http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/north...s/news-story/da8d180393e906938c0b35214bad4c33




Mate, if you're getting 'facts' from the NT news, the world must be a very interesting place, what with all the aliens flying around and yowies in peoples backyards.
crocs up here are taking a hammering, no matter what their scientific classification is.


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## Stuart (Feb 6, 2016)

PythonLegs said:


> Mate, if you're getting 'facts' from the NT news, the world must be a very interesting place, what with all the aliens flying around and yowies in peoples backyards.
> crocs up here are taking a hammering, no matter what their scientific classification is.


Nah mate, I wouldnt take facts from any newspaper regarless of location, I was just sharing a link. 

It would be good to get the perspective of Adam since he posted that


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## CrazyNut (Feb 6, 2016)

Stuart said:


> Heres something that seems like a worthy cause - http://www.pozible.com/project/28752


Oh wow so do have a genetic differences! Thats extermely exciting to me. Thats really putting the foot in the door of a brand new species or at least sub species! And yeh its definetely a worthy cause (Should contact him and say "I will donate if you take me with you" haha).


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## cement (Feb 7, 2016)

that croc suffered a bullet in the head. No doubt there was definatly shown to be a bond between the two and that species isn't porosis, but I'd be betting there was some brain damage done which could have contributed to its ability to form the bond with him. They mate for life, so I think the possibility could be there that the injury affected him.


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## butters (Feb 7, 2016)

Had a look today and there are differences. Pygmys appear to have extra webbing on the sides of the feet, teeth are a little different and head/snout shapes slightly different.
Stupidly I didn't get photos but I'll will try next weekend and post them. 
Temperment is very different as well with pygmys being incredibly laid back and easy to handle. They don't give any territorial lunges or tail slaps like the salties and normal freshies do. You can literally just reach in a pick them up.
6 years old and around 70cms long for one, 80 cms for the other.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 7, 2016)

Looking at the photos on google, I could definetly see a differnce in the snout. The pygmys seem to have a thinner more elongated snout (kind of like a gahrial cross with a freshie lol). How do you know the age (just curious). I would love to know if the life span diffrenciates from regular freshwater crocodiles. As in do they have slightly differnet corting habits? Do they live longer or shorter? Is the clutch size larger or smaller?? It be also intersting to see what there nests look like, assuming they build nest, maybe they lay in rock crevices.... So many questions haha


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## butters (Feb 7, 2016)

They came from a zoo so age is known. Patterning is slightly different too but I'm sure there is pattern variation within the freshwater croc populations so I wouldn't use that as an indicator.

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Supposedly they can breed at 70cms and when I was holding them today I was trying to figure out how they would fit the eggs in. I would hazard a guess the clutch size is very small and I would doubt much more than 6 max 10 and even then I'm assuming the eggs are much smaller than normal.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 8, 2016)

Perhaps they are smaller eggs. Beardeds lay about 20 and they are well under 70cm.


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## butters (Feb 8, 2016)

Normal sized freshies lay up to 20, average a dozen, so I'm expecting less than that. Imagine the croc that came out of a Beardie sized egg. Im guessing they're smaller but not that much smaller.


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## CrazyNut (Feb 10, 2016)

Eh still possible. Not very likely but anyway.... Be super cool if they did lay like 20 eggs haha


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## 5hane (Feb 18, 2016)

just a thought. it was mentioned that crocs don't have the dexterity or dentition to "chew" the legs off a toad, but they are quite capable of dismembering animals with the trashing of their head or with the classic death roll. So would it not be quite plausible that these crocs are simply grabbing the toad by the back legs and simply trashing the hell out of it against the surface of the water? food for thought. I'm sure we have all seen the incredible footage on numerous documentaries were Nile crocs rip wilder beasts, zebras and such to absolute shreds with as little as a head shake.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 18, 2016)

@Shane. The photos shown of toads that may have been possibly used by Pygmy crocs, show they have mangled back legs that are not totally torn off. Freshwater crocs seldom ever eat anything larger than they can swallow in one gulp. What they do to kill their insect, fish and crustacean prey is chomp it a few times by ‘throwing it in the air and re-seizing, at the same positioning it into the middle of mouth so it falls down their gullet when they open their mouth up vertically. I suspect what Dr. Britton was getting at was that they are doing this but only chomping down on the back legs and not repositioning the toads. Repeated chomping would release juices and likely silvers of flesh. 

Funding for purely scientific research (without a direct practical application) has pretty much dried up in recent years. However, if you can make a link with the Cane Toad ‘menace’ and show our animals are surviving the onslaught, then the politicians and bureaucrats and the general public are all happy to be associated with positive outcomes for such a high public profile issue. It is certainly won’t hurt Dr. Britton’s funding requests to suggest there might be a connection. Am I being too cynical here?

To answer CrazyNut’s original question, the genetics show that Pygmys are clearly the same species as the rest of the Freshies. Only Mr. Poser disagrees – and he even wants to name a new genus! A captive pair of Pygmys were bred at Melbourne Zoo and the offspring fed a normal diet. They still ended up dwarfed, indicating it is genetic. Unfortunately the info on clutch size and egg sizes is not readily available, but as a rule, smaller individuals have fewer eggs of comparable size. There are indications of a minor genetic difference but wider sampling is required to confirm if this is consistent. What is known at this point is not deemed sufficient by the croc people to warrant sub-specific status investigation. 

Contrary to earlier statement made, croc species are renowned for NOT being able to be tamed. This is why something like Rob Bredl sitting on his 3.4 m croc Brian is such a drawcard. As far as croc intelligence goes, they are very capable of learning, as are pretty much all vertebrates, but as to their ‘level’ of intelligence I have no idea. It is apparent that are able to recognise their specific ‘handler’. When talking brain size, body mass is an important influence, as is also the degree of encephalisation. All three factors must be taken into account in any attempt to quantify intelligence.


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## 5hane (Feb 18, 2016)

I haven't seen the pictures. i was just reading the thread and the thought popped into my head. But yes I've seen freshies eating fish, where they 'juggled' them until the fishes head was facing towards the throat and were then swallowed whole. Being such intelligent creatures 'if' they were to learn to eat certain parts of the toad the thrashing of the toad would easily explain how it could be done since many other crocodilians do it.


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## GBWhite (Feb 18, 2016)

Hi Shane,

I agree with most of what Bluetongue has posted above. especially his comments about increased prospects of obtaining research funding by providing a link to an invasive species such as the Cane Toad. Still not convinced about them just chewing the legs off toads though.

I find myself being just as cynical as Bluetongue regarding Adam Britton's funding requests where he suggests there might be a connection.

I've been digging around since this topic raised its head and it appears to me that there is a lot of research papers containing contradictory information.

Rather than dissect the lot I've provided a link to where you can access most of the papers and come to your own conclusion.

Cheers.

http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/WR12215


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## 5hane (Feb 18, 2016)

hey George,

cheers for the link I'll have a squiz through it. I don't disagree with Bluetongues comment, It's pretty fair dinkum to say the least. just thought I'd throw another theory in to the mix. Until it's proven with film or photos I agree it's unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

cheers mate,

Shane.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 18, 2016)

[MENTION=2280]shane[/MENTION]. Like so many things, its about possibilities versus probabilities.


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## eipper (Feb 19, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> Looking at the photos on google, I could definetly see a differnce in the snout. The pygmys seem to have a thinner more elongated snout (kind of like a gahrial cross with a freshie lol). How do you know the age (just curious). I would love to know if the life span diffrenciates from regular freshwater crocodiles. As in do they have slightly differnet corting habits? Do they live longer or shorter? Is the clutch size larger or smaller?? It be also intersting to see what there nests look like, assuming they build nest, maybe they lay in rock crevices.... So many questions haha




I have an adult female.......I need a male!!!!or at least the loan of one


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## CrazyNut (Feb 20, 2016)

Hope u breed them! So cool! Small enogh for even me to keep haha


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## BredliFreak (Feb 20, 2016)

Pfft! Stop making me jealous!

Would you say they are pretty rewarding to keep eipper


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## longirostris (Feb 20, 2016)

eipper said:


> I have an adult female.......I need a male!!!!or at least the loan of one



Hi Scott, have you had a chat with Gavin, I am pretty sure last time I saw him at CC he had a male on display. Might be able to work out some process of getting either yours to him or his to yours. Just a thought, wouldn't think there would be too many of these animals in private hands so you may have few other options.

Best of luck with finding a male and breeding them

Regards


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## eipper (Mar 14, 2016)

I have had Fred for 17 years now- she is great


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## BredliFreak (Mar 14, 2016)

Peter Child has a pygmy, not sure if it's male or not but try getting in contact with him?


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