# FAT beardie



## beardy_boy99 (Dec 17, 2007)

ok lol,
I have a new bearded dragon. I got him about 2 weeks ago so now he is 5-6 weeks old. I give him crickets and vegies every day, and he only eats his crickets , never his veggies.
So i have some questions;
What can i do to get him to eat vegies?
And, how many small crickets should he be eating?
Currently he eats 9-11 now, hes a little guts
Cheers


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

got a photo? a 'fat' lookign beardie is often a healthy full stomache. 

9-11 doesnt sound much for a bearded dragon, assuming he's young?

can we have some more info?


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## BT (Dec 17, 2007)

9-11 sounds right


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

at 5-6 weeks old he should be eatign around 50 a day, between 3 feeds. and within time up to 100 a day. 9-11 is probably just enough to keep him going, its better to feed as much as they want. with apropriate feeds a dragon can grow full size by around 7 months old. with those who feed less and thinks its fine, it way take well over 1.5 years to grow near adult, ultimately decreasing a possible full size. 

you can also try roaches. 

apetite can be decreased by temps and other care related problems. 

9-11 is not at all enough to fully back a growing beardie.


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## BT (Dec 17, 2007)

50 a day!
its like power feeding but with lizards. full size in 7 months is way too quick. 18 months is the time it should be full size. feeding them as much as they want is not normal like with turtles if you fed it as much as it wanted it would be like 20 cm in a year. how do you think they survive in the wild. in the end it just reduces it life time. i was told 4-5 a day and my beardie grew up fine. you dont feed a python up so that it will reach full size in a year. you will end up worse off in the end. not to mention the impactation problems from eating two much. 50-100 is not good for them


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## Spikie wanna cricket (Dec 17, 2007)

that sounds good amount to be feeding try to put in the greens before he is fed the crickets and mayybe try some meal worms on his greens otherwise they usally eat greens after a while it like all of a sudden they just see them there


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## Serpant_Lady (Dec 17, 2007)

We have been going slower on ours - they are about 6 months now and ~ 1/3 of their full size. I was concerned that over feeding them could lead to growth problems


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## BT (Dec 17, 2007)

Serpant_Lady said:


> We have been going slower on ours - they are about 6 months now and ~ 1/3 of their full size. I was concerned that over feeding them could lead to growth problems


 
that size is fine for the age


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## Spikie wanna cricket (Dec 17, 2007)

remember we are talking about small crickets here i feed my babys about 5-10 crickets a day but the meduim size cause they finish the small too quickly


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

blake blake who are you to asume an apropriate size, and how much a beardie should eat. 

18 months is far too long to grow to 20" . by a year they should be at least 18" and then over the last 6 months of growth they slow down. 

PLEASE explain the 'risks' or 'growth' problems, there are none. my dragon is in perfect health, as with other dragons who have been fed properly. a growing human baby needs a load of milk, who are you to say they only need half a bottle of milk a day. just enough to keep it growing, and grow slowely over 18 months. 

a dragon being fed a fulfilling diet will no doubt he healthier stronger and larger than any dragon being fed 10 crickets a day.. 

its common sense people. they need 'filling meals' not a light snack. 

they have a high demand for protein and calcium during their growth, they can only get this throguh their diet. a 6 month old thats only 1/3 a adult size would be classified as mulnurited and undersized.


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

mealworms arent apropriate for a young dragon, do you people not care about the health, safety and wellbeing of your dragons. mealworms have little nutrition, and are high in phosphorus. their chiten risks impaction especially in the tight and twisted digestive passage of a young dragon.


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## Armand (Dec 17, 2007)

its always the question "so how do u get him to eat his vegies"??? well take it like this: a juvie beardie eats 80% live food and 20% vegies/ flowers.. an adult eats 50% live/ 50% vegies/flowers.. mine only started eating vergies when he was an adult.. dont worry bout it mate..


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

'vegies' is quite misleading. 

the salad should consist mostly of greens. endive, dandelion, arugula, and alphalpha leaves. then, vegetables. squash, beans, maybe some carrot. and then fruits, papaya, mango and berries, strawb, blue black etc. you can also offer dandelion flowers and hibiscus. 

young dragons usually go far bright colours, mango, stawbs..


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## beardy_boy99 (Dec 17, 2007)

thanx armand. Kirby, where did you gather this info from, everyone else disagrees with you. I have about 13 in there and when he is don, he stops eating. I have tried roaches and he wont eat them. All crickets are dusted with calcium powder.
Cheers


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

beardy_boy99 said:


> thanx armand. Kirby, where did you gather this info from, everyone else disagrees with you. I have about 13 in there and when he is don, he stops eating. I have tried roaches and he wont eat them. All crickets are dusted with calcium powder.
> Cheers



how many times a day do you feed? just the once? 

3 feeds a day is very well known. i assume the 10 a day theory comes from it being cheaper and easier, with disregard for the dragons health. price, ease and aesthetics are a weakness in owning pets, and very often the animals under our care take the backlash, they grow slower, are less active and healthy, and become prone to parasites and infection due to lack of nutrition and adequet feed.


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## beardy_boy99 (Dec 17, 2007)

No twice kirby, crix and vegies. CHEAP, NOW THAT REALLY ANNOYS ME! he is much healthier than the others in his clutch. You shouldnt go running your mouth, and having a go at other people, because im sure tere is a lot of things you do wrong aswell. 
Cheers


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

im sorry if i offended you, i was talking openly and not about you. i sencerely hope you can understand what im saying, theres alot of advice given without proof or important factors behind it. EVERYTHING in my care if based apon safety, nutrition, wellbeing, and the health of my dragons, even if it takes more time, effort or money.. i dont make risks for my beardies. 

you took somethign personally, that wasnt even directed at you. im not running my mouth, your jumping to comclusions and getting angry. im speakign my opinion, and what i beleive and have read/experienced. this is what forums are made for..


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## lizard_lover (Dec 17, 2007)

maby try waight watchers or jenny craig


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## BT (Dec 17, 2007)

Risks: shortened life span due to growing to quicky clearly shown in other types of reptiles
impaction issue due to the large amounts of food consumed
kirby who are you to assume the appropiate growth rates and food consumption of beardies?
so you are saying that all wild beardies are undersized and inaquedatly fed and not active ? Id prefer not "power feeding"
my lizards as much as they want

I am also speaking my opinion and not intending to offend you


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## firedragon (Dec 17, 2007)

LOL my little beardie has gone EMO.. It was bashed by his/her room mate approx 2mths ago, we seperated them but my little one still has trouble eating right, some days it'll only eat once and only 3 - 5 crickets or a couple of woodies (and silk worms when we have them), and other days it'll eat 3 feeds and more per feed but no where near 50 a day. It's enclosure is fine and temps are right, so other than being bullied i can't think of any other reason why it doesnt always eat.


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## PhilK (Dec 17, 2007)

Kirby you say "who are you to assume" etc etc... but here YOU are assuming everyone elses beardies are less healthy than yours.. How do you know that? If these people say they have grown healthy beardies to adulthood by their way of feeding - they are right. 

Your way probably works too (though to me I struggle to see how a wild adult beardie would find 100 crickets etc a day!!) but that doesn't mean it is the only right way to do things. You can grow a python really big really fast but it isn't neccessarily excellent for him.

Not wanting to start a fight, as I know next to nothing about beardies, just making an observation..


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## slip_phreak (Dec 17, 2007)

How could you possibly get your beardie eating 50 crix a day between 3 feeds?
My guys are hatchy's from this season and have only just gone up to medium crix ( but both are happy to to take woodies but i havent got very many that are small enough in my colony of around 1000 yet) and are only taking between 4-8 a feed twice a day usually sometimes less and i feed until refusal..they also take buc choy leaves and some other greens and dandelions but only if i tong feed it to them.
Mine are still 55mm STV (male) and 65mm STV (female) and probably only just over a month old


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## sockbat (Dec 17, 2007)

I feed my beardi 35 to 40 medium crix once a day, He's 8 1/2 mths. I measured a month ago and he/she was 14cm STV. I don't know if this is normal as he's is my first dragon but he is very healthy and I thiink happy too


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## Kirby (Dec 17, 2007)

well i guess every dragon ive seen and many other people around the world, have 'larger apetites'.. 

the risks youve explained about your accused 'force feeding' are unproven even with snakes. 

explain your assumption that this would shorten lifespan? have you tested this, got results? or is this just your theory? its very faulty in the fact that an animal with more food, more nutriants etc. would have a more likely chance to lifelonger, harder and healthier than that with little food. can you provide these 'clearly shown in other reptiles' 

for all that ive read, there are no proven defects of 'skaarfing'. not that the diet i promote is skaarfing at all. 

impaction, lol. you obviousely dont know how impaction works. with the apropriate temp gradiant, a bearded dragon is capable of digesting and breaking down the cartilidge or small pinkie mice, and even bones. i dont suppose you have ever seen a dragon eating 100+ roaches a day, so i suggest you dont point your theories as possible fact on what they can or cannot digest, or thoughts on them 'exploding' as we've seen in some juvenile members before through comments. 

i was aware after i pushed 'post reply' that i didnt mention 'IMO' i apologise. 

PhilK, you are right, there are many ways to 'grow' a dragon, but why not make it healthy and filling. edging a dragon along slowely, giving 'just enough' to keep it going, isnt fundimentally promoting growth IMO. 

having small apetites if often due to incorrect temps or somethign wrong in the care. temps, hydration, suppliments, and stress.

in the wild, the strognest survive, those who grow fast, healthy genes and alot of food survive to breed. tens of thousands are kille don our roads, and a whoel lot more are eaten as prey. and die of impaction, via food soil and other foreign objects. its a harsh environment, and very much survival of the fitest.


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## PhilK (Dec 17, 2007)

Kirby the fact is in the wild animals do not eat all that much. Some pythons survive beautifully covered in ticks and eating once a month, but you'll never find that in captivity.

Your beardie can survive just as well on a much smaller diet (I would guess) but how you feed it is obviously your way and your business. Just the same as others feed their animals in the way they do and neither party can say the other is wrong if both dragons are healthy.


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## Spikie wanna cricket (Dec 17, 2007)

well actually how much you should be feeding your baby beardies depends on the individual my two babys from the same clutch eat differently cause they are very different in size
herps dont grow at a constant weight/ size ratio like mammals do it depends on a varity of conditions temperature, humidity, enclosure size, number of dragons kept with, where the dragon spends most of his time etc etc etc i could go on forever..... but i think you get the picture


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## BT (Dec 18, 2007)

I just don't agree with feeding 50-100 crix a day as I believe it is too much for them making them grow too quickly to adult size in 7 months. like with turtles which also have a high metabolism, feed it too much it grows too fast reducing life span. I believe with beardies not to "give in" and feed them as much as they want as they pretty much want to eat all the time like tutles.
how would a smaller appetite have somthing wrong with care if the tank was fine temps?they are all different
how do you define a healthy beardie?how big and fat they are could mean they are unhealthy with too much body fat on them


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## dragon lady (Dec 18, 2007)

Geese kids.... to the defense of Kirby- there to me is no such thing as POWER FEEDING!
in the wild if they find food they would eat it & not think that that was enough for that day & eat no more as they are not in a restricted diet!
in areas of our beloved country that have more infestations of insects you will see reptiles...particular lizards that are robust ,strong & wanted!
and mealworms are nothing but fat...so they are needed to to build up for a adult! before winter as a adult needs excess fat to store while they are in brumation so as their body does not eat itself away & they wake up!
so as some but not all do ..........i do not have a minimum to count per feed but if they are hungry they will eat!

Sockbat-sounds like yours is going well now...WELLDONE!

How can you MAKE a animal eat ...OPEN its mouth & force food down!!!! DONT THINK SO!!!!!
if they are hungry they will eat...........
from hatch mine get at least 4 attempts to eat per day & average 3-4 pr feed...add this!
then at 3-4 weeks 3 feeds....& they usually increase their consumption to 6-8 pr feed
at 8-12wks generally i drop back a feed of live but then they are eating green readily all day!
So now i will speak of the youngest member of my lair.....Faith
at hatch............10 cm & 2g when i got her
4wks.................12cm & 5g
8wks.................15cm & 10g
12wks...............19cm & 17g
16wks...............24cm & 32g
she is not the biggest at this age... but comes with average of my gals.........
Merlin........well he stands out on his own...but dont have data at 4wks
7wks.................17cm & 21g
13wks...............27cm & 69g
17wks................35cm & 155g
any way at 6 mnths 40cm & 257g.........8mths 47.5cm & 399g........10mnths 48cm & 467g
he has just turned 1 ( happy birthday Merlin!!!) but i am doing all updates on the 1st Jan...& he has already mated with a large rusty orange female & egg are in the oven!

Wasnt this about vegies...........look give a pm & i'll help

over all you would not restrict a human baby.........just get your head around it.......its quite obvious that you are worried & we are all here to help.


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

blakeblake said:


> I just don't agree with feeding 50-100 crix a day as I believe it is too much for them making them grow too quickly to adult size in 7 months. like with turtles which also have a high metabolism, feed it too much it grows too fast reducing life span. I believe with beardies not to "give in" and feed them as much as they want as they pretty much want to eat all the time like tutles.
> how would a smaller appetite have somthing wrong with care if the tank was fine temps?they are all different
> how do you define a healthy beardie?how big and fat they are could mean they are unhealthy with too much body fat on them



1. bearded dragons do not have shells that restrict their growth 
2. turtles are different to beardies  as dragon_lady said, in the wild if they have food they will eat it. your theory on shortenign life span is rubbish in a factual world. you have no proof or evidence to say the least. a animal with more food, and the ability to make the best fo this in the wild will be stronger, healthier and bigger increasing it risks of survival. 
3. you said your self, they have hgih metabolisms, you are harming them with small diets. they use up the energy and nutriants quickely, ultimately slowing their growth due to lack of. 
4. if the cage temps were fine, along withthe rest of the care, apetite would rise to a normal level as would a wild beardie having optomistic feedings, having large stomaches to fill. 

- i define a healthy beardie as one who is growign fast, has good spongy fat stores, on tail base, legs and cranium. a full stomache, less baggy skin along the back, ribs, bones or spine not showing. an active (as active as they can get) daily play. and upright or erect head, movement during the day, good solid faeces, 
clear eyes, nostils and ears. clean and clear teeth, non droopy eyelids. healthy shedding, and good diet. 

- looking 'fat' with a plump stomache is VERY different than being 'obese.' often fatty liver disease and kidney, can only be foudn be a trained veterinarian via tests, but this is usually due to an adult diet too high in protein foods, and mis use of fatty foods such as mealworms or waxworms. plump fat stores are good, in the event of treatment or brumation. 

blakeblake, you have as of yet no support for your claims. got any?

dragonlady, thanks. you are right on alot of things, the only thing i disagree on is mealworms. they are not needed as part of the diet, to build up fat stores or growth into adulthood. roaches and crix as well as silkworms. do an optimum job with providing energy and protein as well as apropriate fats to suppliment stores. during growth the protein is used to grow. this is why they eat less protein feeders as they become adult. this lesser amount still supplies them with energy and fat they may have lost during energy spurts or burnt off. mealworms will only increase un-needed amoutns of fat. IMO


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## dragon lady (Dec 18, 2007)

Kirby ...you dont have to use them...you are right... mine as juvies & on see them approx every 21 days ..thats it
also eat woodies ,crickets,pinkies,silkworms,earthworms & vegies NOT DICED...same size as live if not bit bigger.....you dont have to defend yourself ...most will eventually understand that if they want there beardie in particular to exceed 6-8yrs...........all heritage on mine are excess from 11-16yrs so i have lines of good stock
then they will find better health plans with there collection or loose them quicker........what you put in you get back...........put 10 crickets in ,,,well not much time back!... but alas most see that they love their animals of all descriptions & dont want to waste their money in the long run...& some dont figure that 4 feeds as a hatchie means at 12mnths you only feed once every 3-4 days on live! with veg in between.


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## BT (Dec 18, 2007)

Kirby, this is what is was informed when i purchased mi beardie a while ago of a rep vet. but from what dragon lady has said with her 11-16 year olds im am starting to think the person I purchased mine off MAY not have been correct in some areas. I still cannot get my head aroung 100 a day, how do you fit in 4 feeding sessions a day?I still don't agree about the size judgements of how big one should be in a certain amount of months. My beardie was at 50cm+ at 8 months and i was feeding him 5-10 bugs a day + veges


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## Duke (Dec 18, 2007)

> 1. bearded dragons do not have shells that restrict their growth


No, but they have bones that grow just as fast as turtle shells...



> 2. turtles are different to beardies  as dragon_lady said, in the wild if they have food they will eat it. your theory on shortenign life span is rubbish in a factual world. you have no proof or evidence to say the least. a animal with more food, and the ability to make the best fo this in the wild will be stronger, healthier and bigger increasing it risks of survival.


Since we're bringing up the "wild" debate, do you think a dragon will readily have access too 100 insects in one day?



> 3. you said your self, they have hgih metabolisms, you are harming them with small diets. they use up the energy and nutriants quickely, ultimately slowing their growth due to lack of.


How are they using up energy insufficiently? They only use energy when running around, and DIGESTING FOOD THAT JUST PASSES THROUGH THEM. Once they've got their nutrients for the day I'd assume that the kidneys and liver dispose of the excess through their excreta - hence wasting energy.



> - SNIP
> 
> blakeblake, you have as of yet no support for your claims. got any?


Yeah, he's got my support.



> dragonlady, thanks. you are right on alot of things, the only thing i disagree on is mealworms. they are not needed as part of the diet, to build up fat stores or growth into adulthood. roaches and crix as well as silkworms. do an optimum job with providing energy and protein as well as apropriate fats to suppliment stores. during growth the protein is used to grow. this is why they eat less protein feeders as they become adult. this lesser amount still supplies them with energy and fat they may have lost during energy spurts or burnt off. *mealworms will only increase un-needed amoutns of fat.* IMO


Define un-needed amounts of fat....




blakeblake said:


> Kirby, this is what is was informed when i purchased mi beardie a while ago of a rep vet. but from what dragon lady has said with her 11-16 year olds im am starting to think the person I purchased mine off MAY not have been correct in some areas. I still cannot get my head aroung 100 a day, how do you fit in 4 feeding sessions a day?I still don't agree about the size judgements of how big one should be in a certain amount of months. My beardie was at 50cm+ at 8 months and i was feeding him 5-10 bugs a day + veges


Remember that this is Australia, and food is often a scare thing.
If you constantly feed them 5-10 a day, then they'll adapt to that menu quite well. If they're happy and healthy the way they are, then I don't think there's anything to worry about.


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

explain 'scare' thing. and yes, what a mighty fine observation.. this IS australia.. good boy. 

your support is nothing, 'evedentual support'.. come on people. get realistic. 

unless you have any scientific research or proven reason that growing too fast in bearded dragons is dangerous. and not relating them to a COMPLETELY different species such as a turtle. good day duke and blakeblake. 

'un-needed amounts of fat' is obviousely excess amounts, that the liver and kidneys deal with. when they are left to deal with too much they develope kidney and liver disease. this is life threatening, and common in adults fed a diet too hgih in fat. a juvenile diet high in fat can also contribute. think heart disease with build up etc. with a kidney or liver. 
----------------------------------------------------
They only use energy when running around, and DIGESTING FOOD THAT JUST PASSES THROUGH THEM. 
---------------------------------------------------
no.. they use the energy to grow and develope.  it doesnt just pass. you dont understand how this works obviousely. what is passed in the faecle matter and urates is excess nutritants and solids that are of no use o the body. this will happen on a small diet or large. the body absorbs apropriate amounts use din growth and develope ment. if a dragon with a high diet is growing faster. it is getting enough to grow etc. a dragon with a small diet is clearly not getting enough to develop. thus it grows slower. 

unless you have somehthing factual, proven or collective to say, lay down on the 'ive got his back' and 'your wrogn because i said so' buisness. it means nothign in proving a point, it obviousely what you rely on.


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## Duke (Dec 18, 2007)

Ok, I'm not relating any of this to other species. I'm just saying that I think there's a maximum growth rate for a lizard.
If you feed it in excess, the body has to work harder to digest it all.

I'd imagine that there's a key rate of digestion for a bearded dragon. For humans it takes around 12 hours to pass "light" foods.

You've stated my own concern in your counter just then.
"you dont understand how this works obviousely. what is passed in the faecle matter and urates is excess nutritants and solids that are of no use o the body."
OBVIOUSLY, the excess nutrients have to be processed by the liver and kidneys to be turned into the urates etc.
Hence using more energy to process it.


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## beardy_boy99 (Dec 18, 2007)

OK this thread is funny, i asked how to get my beardie fudge onto veggies and is 9-11 crix a day fine for that age?OK then Kirby, i just measured my beardie. When i got him 7.5 cm's, 2 weeks later 9.5 cm's, today 12 cm's so in 3 weeks he grew 4.5 cm eating anyfrom from 5-12 crix a day and 2-3 bites of endive in that time only. (Presumed)She is only 5-6 weeks old.Explain that!
Cheers


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

any knowledgable reptile veterinarian will tell you the amount of 10 small sized crickets are not enough for a dragon that age, especially in a quickely growing species. you have no evidence to back your claims, your opinions are no more special or knowledgable than mine or anybody elses on this board, they are opinions. and obviousely your having a hard time understandign evidence or factual support. 'im backing him' lol

he grew 1 cm in a week, this isnt much. and supposedly 4.5 in 3 weeks. again this result is not overwhelming, during a spurt of growth it is not unusual in my experiences for a dragon to grow 1-2 inches in a week. which is 2.5-5 times more that your dragons growth. the amount of dragons ive seen grow healthy, with out 'side effects' not that there are any. and live long and happy lives. are perfectly happy healthy, and doing extremely well. 
adult size in 7-9 months is not unusual in beardies, not other species. in 9 months a human embryo grows THOUSAND of times its size, does it have side effects if the mother eats a healthy diet?


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## beardy_boy99 (Dec 18, 2007)

1 cm in a week, because he wouldnt eat for 4 days just settling in. im locking this thread and Kirby in time i hope you learn, TO STOP DICTATING OTHERS HOW TO BRING UP THEIR ********* DRAGONS, ok?
Chees, have a great day


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## Miss B (Dec 18, 2007)

Does anyone have any actual proof or evidence as to what would be a healthy diet for a growing beardie?

So far I've seen no facts or evidence of any sort... only opinion.


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## beardy_boy99 (Dec 18, 2007)

oops, does anyone know how to lock threads?lol lmao
Cheers


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## GraftonChic (Dec 18, 2007)

What length should a baby be that is 11 months?


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

i have a right like any other poster to share my thoughts and opinions as do you or any other member. i am not forcing, yet i am sharign my thoughts beleifs, knowledge and experience. you are yet to put forward any solid imformation, or evidence. and i think your swearign and excessive caps shwos your age and maturity. 

we coudl go into why he wasnt eatign for four day? or was this part of his diet?


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

GraftonChic said:


> What length should a baby be that is 11 months?




close to fully grown, with a healthy diet and setup. IMO


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## GraftonChic (Dec 18, 2007)

I have 3 babies and they eat all the crickets and vegies they want. And boy do they eat. They are growing but are still small. They have everything from calcium to vitamins, Uv , natural sun etc....
Thanks


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## GraftonChic (Dec 18, 2007)

They were very small when I picked them up.


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

graftonchic, your probably better startign your own thread. this one is near death with threats of locking.. 

i'd live to see pics of your bubs. send me a pm.   the one in your sig looks like a cutie..


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## GraftonChic (Dec 18, 2007)

Kirby- Tried to pm you, said you need to clear some space....
Here is a pic
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2397/02112007358cs9.jpg


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## Miss B (Dec 18, 2007)

Kirby said:


> we coudl go into why he wasnt eatign for four day? or was this part of his diet?


 
I daresay the beardie was settling in. Most suffer a bit of relocation stress and go off their food for a brief period after being moved to new surroundings.


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

all cleared.. lol.


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## AuZzIe (Dec 18, 2007)

gday guys

i talked to the breeder that i got my beardie from and he said that 9-11 crickets a day is great for a baby aslong as they are dusted and they get their vegies in. so dont start to tell me wats right and wrong kirby im just helping out. cheers.


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

who's to say this breeder is right, many breeders support calci-sand or feeding dog food.


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## AuZzIe (Dec 18, 2007)

well this breeder sounds like hes doing good if he breeds and sells dragons quite alot so much so that he bought 15 babys just to the gold coast to be picked up for people around that area and traveling across australia giving them to people


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## Australis (Dec 18, 2007)

I even heard of a Bearded Dragon breeder not giving his animals daily bath time!!! 
What would the Americans say!! LOL :shock:


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## Kirby (Dec 18, 2007)

as long as their hydrated im sure the'll be right without there bath time. dont you worry australis.


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## Australis (Dec 18, 2007)

Im not worried, they dont need standing water anyways.


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## BT (Dec 19, 2007)

Kirby said:


> who's to say this breeder is right, many breeders support calci-sand or feeding dog food.


 
Who is to say your right
The 100 cricket feeding your beardie thing, I just found it on most american sites:lol:


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## CodeRed (Dec 20, 2007)

Australis said:


> I even heard of a Bearded Dragon breeder not giving his animals daily bath time!!!
> What would the Americans say!! LOL :shock:


 
Oh no must be pommy beardies!!


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## The-Guy (Dec 20, 2007)

hmmm a 20cm lizard eating 50-100 2cm animals, that is like a 70cm human, eating 50-100 7cm frogs a day, tell you one thing i'd be stuffed...


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## CodeRed (Dec 20, 2007)

I declare that this thread has been 
*KIRBIED* ​


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## Chris1 (Dec 20, 2007)

hey, dont hassle daily baths,..it saves me from having to clean up poop!! 

my little uns would easily eat 50 a day,....plus a huge amount of greens.
i was told by the breeder to feed them less and as a result Kaida lost the end of her tail to a hungry Kyro,...so i went back to raising them how i raised the big girls and no ones felt the need to nibble anyone since.


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## Australis (Dec 20, 2007)

Might help you to save on cleaning, but i mean the animal will be fine with out it.


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## Chris1 (Dec 20, 2007)

yeah i know.


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## Miss B (Dec 20, 2007)

Yeah... according to the American forums, beardies do not know how to drink from a water dish shock: I guess my beardies missed that memo :shock and regular baths are essential for 'proper' hydration - they recommend three or four times per week, oh and don't forget to make sure the vent area is right down in the water 

While you're at it, don't forget to tell your beardie that you love it at LEAST once a day ... they die of a broken heart otherwise, you know ...


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## dragon lady (Dec 20, 2007)

I use a kitty litter tray for mine for water.....some dont have any idea!

My opinion is my own ...it works for me..& if i get asked for advice i will always say demand fed or reptiles that are allowed to eat what they want on their feeding day will prove to be healthier,bigger & better in quality for breeding ... as in the long run we all want our reptiles/animals to be the healthiest ,the best in quality that we can get them to be ......... & as for veg tips with beardies ..as i said PM me( think that was on page 2?) if you want my ideas, if not its ok.


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## ozianimals (Dec 20, 2007)

I have wild beardies on my property and I don't see them having a bath every week (although there is one there for the horse and alpacas) and we definately do not have more than 100 crix in the area four times a day just for the beardies. All of the wild beardies that I have seen and caught as a kid were all body width about the same as there head and if they feel threatened they will bloat to the size that most people keep there beardies. Most people do harm there beardies by over feeding them. They should be lean animals and to grow a reptile too fast is not healthy. They will only grow to a certain size before they start to head down hill.
Kirby you were talking about people using different species to compare and how you shouldn't do this yet you use the growth of a human fetus compared to a hatched beardy.....does not make sense.
Also a beardy should take longer than 12 months to reach full size if grown at the correct rate not be a full adult in 7 months. The person you are getting advice from is wrong......
You are asking for proof. How old are your beardies and how old is the average of a wild beardy.............When you can give us correct answers for these questions then maybe everyone else in this industry will look at things differently..................


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## NinaPeas (Dec 20, 2007)

I have only seen my 7yr old female drink a coupld of times out of her waterdish, but then I don't watch her 24/7. They will drink when they are thisty, not a hard concept to understand 

I feed mine lots of vegies and crickets, and once a week a weaner mouse. I avoid things like cabbage/sprouts, as I have had the unpleasant experience of some animals dying due to being bloated from the gassy food.

Just keep offering a wide variety of small chopped vegies and fruit (not too small, then it can lead to mouth infections and things like that because they just swallow, not chew) and your beardie will eventually get the idea. I founf it helped with mine when it was young, to move the lettuce around a bit, so it looked 'alive'.

Hope all that helps


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## hugsta (Dec 20, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Yeah... according to the American forums, beardies do not know how to drink from a water dish shock: I guess my beardies missed that memo :shock and regular baths are essential for 'proper' hydration - they recommend three or four times per week, oh and don't forget to make sure the vent area is right down in the water
> 
> While you're at it, don't forget to tell your beardie that you love it at LEAST once a day ... they die of a broken heart otherwise, you know ...


 
LOL, don't forget to whipe his bum when he has a pooo as well, clean his teeth and make sure his missus is waxed and goes to a beauty salon, especially if you want them to breed.....

OH!! Don't forget the Barry White music in the background and some candles.....LOL

Funny thread.:lol:

I wish I knew all this info before I starting breeding beardies years ago.......


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## Nephrurus (Dec 20, 2007)

Miss B said:


> While you're at it, don't forget to tell your beardie that you love it at LEAST once a day ... they die of a broken heart otherwise, you know ...




Be careful not to tell them you love them TOO much..... I made this mistake, and some of my hatchlings died. I got them autopsied and the results were "Died from exploded heart, from loving the owner too much".


-H


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## Kirby (Dec 20, 2007)

bathing is helpfull, as it helps with shedding and hyrdration as does with a snake, ive read some of you even have showers with your snakes (thats weird.. ) and as chris said, makes easy clean up. i dont beleive its life threatenign to not do it. but it sure is helpfull.. 

and wow miss b, you sure change character when jumping on the band waggon, as you too are a member and freqent poster there..  

i understand the bandwaggon and your refusal to accept different methods, especially those with yankie agreance. and sure you can do it your way. but mockign only makes your self look stupid. although some of the comments are funny. 

i have one dragon who will bathe its self all day if it could, and drink happily from a dish. another will refuse, but will drink up in a bath, and not from a dish. every dragons different.


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## Miss B (Dec 20, 2007)

Kirby said:


> and wow miss b, you sure change character when jumping on the band waggon, as you too are a member and freqent poster there..


 
Haha. My opinion is the same, regardless of which board I am posting on. Here is a quote from a post I made on the American forums, when the topic of bathing beardies arose:



Miss B said:


> So you are saying that bathing is essential for beardies, to keep them hydrated??
> 
> What about those poor beardies in the outback of Australia - who rounds them up and gives them their baths three times a week?
> 
> ...


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## hugsta (Dec 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Miss B*
> _So you are saying that bathing is essential for beardies, to keep them hydrated??_
> 
> _What about those poor beardies in the outback of Australia - who rounds them up and gives them their baths three times a week?
> ...


 
LOL Miss B, I have bred 100s of beardies over the years, more so earlier in earlier days of keeping herps and have never bathed any at all. Can't see why you would need to bath a lizard that lives in some of the driest parts of the country. They are a funny bunch over there....LOL. I did always keep a water bowl in the enclosures for them if they desired a drink. They are not dumb animals and can work out where the water is quite quickly. I also fed them as much as they wanted all their lives, never had a problem, just not every day as adults. Fed them eveything from cat/dog food, pink,fuzzy and weaner mice, rat pups and fuzzies, crickets, woodies, bok choy, capsicum, celery tops, carrots etc etc. Never had any die and always had good healthy multiple clutches. I don't have them anymore, but a couple of my original breeders live with a friend and they are still producing clutches 8 or 9 years on and still going great.

Cheers
Daz


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## Miss B (Dec 21, 2007)

And here I was thinking that a dedicated bunch of beardie lovers were making regular trips out into the outback with their rubbermaids full of warm water to give all the wild beardies their daily bathtime :lol:

Yeah, I keep water dishes in my enclosures too and my beardies are quite happy to drink from them. It's obvious that in the States the beardies get 'babied' a lot, which has led to various weird little myths about their husbandry requirements.


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## CodeRed (Dec 21, 2007)

hugsta said:


> ...
> I wish I knew all this info before I starting breeding beardies years ago.......


 
Dont worry mate, sensai Kirby will show you what you are doing wrong


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## bitey (Dec 21, 2007)

I have found a fat beardie.


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## Chris1 (Dec 21, 2007)

Kirby said:


> , ive read some of you even have showers with your snakes (thats weird.. ) .



hehe, thats me,...!!
the beardies also join me in the shower once theyve pooped in their daily bath,....theyre huge fans of the shower!!


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## Bigbird (Dec 21, 2007)

Kirby said:


> any knowledgable reptile veterinarian will tell you the amount of 10 small sized crickets are not enough for a dragon that age


 
I see a very knowledgable reptile vet who keeps beardies himself and he told me that 5-6 crix twice a day is fine for young beardies. He also told me that by 9 months of age beardies should only be eating crix / woodies twice a week (dusted with calcium and vits) and fruits and veggies (as varied as possible) the rest of the time. This is how to raise a beardie to live a long and healthy life. He saw my two when they were 9 months and they both weighed about 220g and were about 38-40cm long and he said they were a good size / weight for their age.

As he is a qualified vet who has a lot of experience with reptiles, I will take his advice over anyone elses, but taking on everyones experiences and opinions is always useful too.

In response to the other question at the beginning of this thread regarding how to get beardies to eat veggies - as someone else stated, they will usually just start eating them at some stage. I got my two at about 6 weeks old and offered them veggies every day, but it took them about two months before they started eating the veggies.


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## Clairebear (Dec 21, 2007)

maybe they bathe them over in America because of humidity differences. Australia is a very humid place... maybe the beardies over there aren't getting the air moisture or something... i have NO idea if this is the case it's just what i thought of reading through the thread?


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## JKretzs613 (Dec 21, 2007)

*Hello*

Hello,

I just wanted to comment on this thread! I just wondered why everyone was giving Kirby such a hard time? He is a fellow Aussie who really tries to help. I would think you would support each other not tear each other down. :shock:
He is on the US forum alot, as well, & does a great job helping people out.
The feeding of 50+ crickets a day is pretty much a nationwide standard, as well as in Germany & other countries. I am pretty sure that when he talkes about 100 crickets a day, they are not the large crickets as he is referring to baby & juvie dragons which do have a large requirement for protein. 
The skeletal structure does require more food, just in general at that growing age. The first year of life sets them up for life, so to speak. You can really stunt their growth severely by not feeding correctly during that time frame. They technically, should reach their maximum growth in length by 1 year or shortly thereafter. The 2nd year of life is spent filling out & maturing. 
We suggest cutting back the protein at roughly 10-12 months, but most of the time, they naturally do it on their own as their instinctual behavior sets in. If a dragon is not hungry, they usually will not eat.
Alot of you are saying that there is no way that they would find that much food in the wild. Well, it depends on the time of year & the area. There are reasons other than the weather, that they go into brumation. Food is very plentiful during the spring & summer, but falls off during the fall & winter so brumation is a natural thing to do because of food sources being low primarily. I have a feeling though, if they are finding alot of food in one region, that they tend to stick to areas where they are finding more food, & move around to find more food. Survival of the fittest is how it happens in the wild. They may live in dry areas, sure, but from every documentation that I have read states that they spend a good amount of time finding water & digging burrows where it is cooler & possibly damp to cool off during the summertime so they can preserve water in the heat of the day. 
The problem lies with keeping them captivity. Dragons in the wild are different than ones kept in captivity. In the wild, the gradients are different, & they are not cooped up in a dry tank, with heat almost all day long. Being in a tank tends to dry them out much more than being out in the wild, so, there really is no comparison. 
We are talking about dragons in captivity, not in the wild. So, if they are leaner in the wild because they are not getting enough food, then, why would we not want to provide more for them in captivity. The only time that too much protein contributes to obesity, renal failure or other health problems is when too much is fed when they are adults & they don't need it. 
I do not live in Australia, but I do know several people who live over in your country in Bundaberg. They frequently see wild barbatas. So, speaking of dragons in general, I have a feeling most of you are referring to how our dragons in the US look which are 100% Pogona Vitticeps with alot of them being German Giant cross. 
The Vitticeps are much rounder shaped in appearance than the wild dragons that you may be used to seeing such as the Pogona Barbata, so, again, you cannot say that our dragons here in the US are fat. That really is an unfair statement, as we do not have any Barbatas, only Vitticeps. Of course, the vitticeps in the wild may not quite look like your captive bred ones, or ours either, just due to the fact they always have to compete for food, or find it, but that doesn't mean that we need to starve them either.
The whole point of keeping them in captivity is to provide them a full & long life, unlike what most of them would get in the wild because of predators. 
So if you want to make fun of us americans for holding & loving our dragons, or putting them in fleece blankies every night at bed, then go ahead. However, for those of you who may be mill breeders & have never come close to experiencing the closeness of holding a dragon for the sheer love of doing so, are greatly missing out.
That is the difference in large breeders who only breed for money & hobbyists who either breed selectively, or just not at all. 
I really resent being made fun of because our husbandry is different or we choose to spend tons of money on our lighting. Our lighting ROCKS over here, & I am proud of it. I do tons of research on lighting, & am working closely with Dr. Frances Baines, from the UK, constantly to help gather data regarding lighting, etc, to help her with testing to ensure that the lighting is optimal & safe.
The only thing that Kirby might be guilty of is being very persistent & passionate about how he feels about bearded dragons. I don't see what is so wrong about that, as most people never really find their true passion in life, but I believe that he has, just like I have.

Tracie


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## Miss B (Dec 21, 2007)

I think the main problem we have is with the attitude.

Most of us have the attitude that, "This is the way I do things and if you wanna do things your way, that's fine"

Whereas others have this attitude that, "This is the way I do things, and my way is the best way, and I want you to do things my way too".


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## CodeRed (Dec 21, 2007)

JKretzs613 said:


> <snip>
> The only thing that Kirby might be guilty of is being very persistent & passionate about how he feels about bearded dragons. I don't see what is so wrong about that, as most people never really find their true passion in life, but I believe that he has, just like I have.
> 
> Tracie


 
No kirby is trying to jam his ideas down the throats of people who have a lot more experience that his mere 12 months of beardie keeping. Quite clearly he is well read, but lacks the experience to see what is the minimum required, what is practical and what is just plain and simply over the top. 

kirby, listen, comment, but dont lecture and you'll find that people will then start to listen and respect your opinion too.


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## Kirby (Dec 21, 2007)

Miss B said:


> I think the main problem we have is with the attitude.
> 
> Most of us have the attitude that, "This is the way I do things and if you wanna do things your way, that's fine"
> 
> Whereas others have this attitude that, "This is the way I do things, and my way is the best way, and I want you to do things my way too".



yes i do have this 'attitude' but its for the right reasons, because i care for your dragons.. 

and codered, you dont know me at all. ive kept dragons for almost 6 years now, and had the p.vitticeps 'puppy' that i mentioned for almost 16 months now. you cannot draw someones experience from one dragon, from one example posted in a thread. 

i dont plan to wittness or put my dragons through the minimum required again. because i now can and will provide my dragons with a much better, healthier and fulfilling lifestyle than 10 crickets a day. as for your acusation of lack of experience in the minimum, my rankins (first dragon) was fed the 'suggested' as you all admit to being ever faithfull, and this dragon has stunted growth and a tricky diet due to similar advice as your own, and lack of thorough knowledge and unaceptance to uvb knowledge or acessability. i dont wish to risk this with my dragons again, nor do i want to see it with any one elses. you'll be pleased to know that the rankins is now fine and very healthy eating suitable foods and living (hopefully continue to) live a long happy life. 

when raising my original three centrals, i did have times were food was scarce awaiting deliveries and money etc. and i did see them slow growth when i rationed their foods, not to say it was as little as 10 a day, more likely 20-30 but they did slow in growth. i'd rather my dragons grow quickely and strongely, and live long healthy lives then let theem knuckle-drag in growth so they get similar dietary experiences as they would in the wild. i'd rather provide the best for their health and wellbeing.


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## CodeRed (Dec 21, 2007)

Kirby said:


> yes i do have this 'attitude' but its for the right reasons, because i care for your dragons..
> 
> and codered, you dont know me at all. ive kept dragons for almost 6 years now, and had the p.vitticeps 'puppy' that i mentioned for almost 16 months now. you cannot draw someones experience from one dragon, from one example posted in a thread.
> 
> ...


 
Kirby, before you start to throw the BS around you might want to remember that people know how to search these forums. Would you like me to dig up some of your posts from12 months ago which clearly shows you have NO expeience with beardies.

You had a chance, so welcome to my ignore list. Now I dont have to listen to your self righteous crap anymore.


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## Kirby (Dec 21, 2007)

lying.. pffft.. i got a rankins almost 6 years ago, and 3 centrals almost 16 months ago.. no lies.. ive got licence records to proove..


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## sandfire (Dec 21, 2007)

usually beardies dont start eating vegies until they grow older


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## FAY (Dec 21, 2007)

hhhmmmmm I think I should close this thread now before it really goes downhill.......


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