# Are there too many snakes being bred?



## borntobnude (May 25, 2014)

We have a whole 6 stimsons for sale and I haven't sold any . I have noticed that a lot of the 'average looking snakes 'are not selling quickly on here .

are there too many available ? are they too expensive ? are people on here looking for that 'special snake for their breeding program ? 

or has the hoby hit a plateau ? I don't think the last is true , going by the number of people at this years expo's 

what are your thoughts ??

As much as we enjoyed the breeding process ( done mainly for our daughters interest and supposed involvement ) (( FAIL)) we will not do it again as we care too much about the animals . My wife is attached to them but room is a factor . As I am sure it is with all breeders .


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## imported_Varanus (May 25, 2014)

More market choice almost always equates to more waste. The unfortunate thing here is we're not dealing with fruit and veg, but animals many of us claim to love....JMO, of course.


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## marcus0002 (May 25, 2014)

The market is flooded at the moment. Wild type coastals and anterasia won't sell for more than $100. I picked up a 4 year old coastal the other day for $70. The guy selling it had it on gumtree for months without a single phone call until he lowered the price to $70.

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## imported_Varanus (May 25, 2014)

marcus0002 said:


> The market is flooded at the moment. Wild type coastals and anterasia won't sell for more than $100. I picked up a 4 year old coastal the other day for $70. The guy selling it had it on gumtree for months without a single phone call until he lowered the price to $70.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk




I don't know if there's any "at the moment" with either of the species you mentioned, it's been way over supplied for years with these and many other easily bred species. I know of people who haven't sold one hypo Bredli in many months, despite price drops, nice snake that was very popular several years ago., but nix now.......go figure.


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## marcus0002 (May 25, 2014)

Yea good point. The only snake I have that cost me decent money was my bhp.

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## borntobnude (May 25, 2014)

would they sell better if I added %0 possible albino !! ??


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## turtle (May 25, 2014)

I think its highly dependant of the quality of stock. All of my coastals went for a minimum of 250 with some for significantly more. I am actually finding it hard to keep up with demand. I think with coastals in particular, a good quality pair goes a long way.

Cheers, Dan


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## Norm (May 25, 2014)

I haven`t been in the hobby for long but in my time I`ve been surprised by the number of new keepers that are prepared to fork out up to $1000 for their first snake, add onto this the cost of setting up enclosures and it can be easily a $1500 investment for something that might be a passing fad. It seems the days of starting out with something cheaper like a bredli or spotted are gone and people want that wow factor. I`ve spent a little money but a few years putting together a collection of various coloured diamonds (as they are my favourite python) that should be ready to breed in the next year or two, I have a few that I haven't seen anything like out there so I`m hoping they`ll be popular, not so much to make money but rather to sell easily for a reasonable price to cover some costs. But I have to admit I`ve had doubts whether I`m heading down the right track or not. 
I don't mean to spark the old debate about purists and morph breeders but I've predominantly been a purist but my views are changing due to there being a very small market for pure animals. But in trying to make my hobby self sufficient and not a burden on the family budget I need to sell some cheaper snakes before I can invest in some quality morphs and hopefully not come into it 2 to 3 years behind the 8 ball.


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## imported_Varanus (May 25, 2014)

borntobnude said:


> would they sell better if I added %0 possible albino !! ??



Or try possible het for Axanthic BHP?


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## Maxwell (May 25, 2014)

Norm said:


> I haven`t been in the hobby for long but in my time I`ve been surprised by the number of new keepers that are prepared to fork out up to $1000 for their first snake, add onto this the cost of setting up enclosures and it can be easily a $1500 investment for something that might be a passing fad. It seems the days of starting out with something cheaper like a bredli or spotted are gone and people want that wow factor. I`ve spent a little money but a few years putting together a collection of various coloured diamonds (as they are my favourite python) that should be ready to breed in the next year or two, I have a few that I haven't seen anything like out there so I`m hoping they`ll be popular, not so much to make money but rather to sell easily for a reasonable price to cover some costs. But I have to admit I`ve had doubts whether I`m heading down the right track or not.
> I don't mean to spark the old debate about purists and morph breeders but I've predominantly been a purist but my views are changing due to there being a very small market for pure animals. But in trying to make my hobby self sufficient and not a burden on the family budget I need to sell some cheaper snakes before I can invest in some quality morphs and hopefully not come into it 2 to 3 years behind the 8 ball.



This is true. 

Currently I'm looking at investing another several thousands of dollars in a snake that will set my collection apart. 

GTPs and albinos have lost their rarity. So its only matter of time before something else takes over 

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## PythonLegs (May 25, 2014)

Yep.
and what's happening to all the unsellable jag sibs/coastals/childrens/ beardies/bluies etc etc?
surely nobody would just dump them in the garden, because all breeders are responsible, environmentally aware animal lovers who are only in it for the experience...


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## AussieBen (May 25, 2014)

I'm not sure about every one else, but the things I think about is space and cost. I would have all the breeds that I could, but I am limited on space and with the price of electricity to keep the tanks heated plays a big part. So with those 2 main factors I get selective on what I purchase now. I own both a bredli and coastal and would never consider getting rid of them, but it isn't something that I will buy again. My next purchases will be another BHP, a Woma, and then probably some jags.


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## Snowman (May 25, 2014)

The idea of selling some specimens is probably obsolete. Once the market is flooded it will be "free to good home". 
Slowly starting to see the market flooded in WA. But animals are still moving......... Stimis about $200 for average specimens. I guess given they live for so long that each season not only are there new hatchies, but the all the snakes from previous years. How big can the snake population get? 
I'm all for wild type specimens. But people need to be selective about what they are pairing if they want to move them.


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## Gizmo101 (May 25, 2014)

A lot of people also go to the commercialised sellers over private breeders. It's more easily accessible and they're usually more willing to freight. It's easier to source a snake from someone with a big name then find a breeder.


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## kitten_pheonix (May 25, 2014)

I think alot of the issues this year are due to the lack of money hanging around. 
For example in the hunter everyweek another company is closing. About 500 people lost there job just last week. That paired with everyone scared over the new budget has no one wanting to spend the $ on animals.
But yes I think animals are being over bred, alot of people are wanting reptiles ready to breed, they dont want hatchlings to raise. I have had people ask if I have any adult pairs as the first thing they want to do is breed without the wait. With no prior exp in a species (geckos) 
This is another group being flooded with adverage animals


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## Gizmo101 (May 25, 2014)

A lot of people also go to the commercialised sellers over private breeders. It's more easily accessible and they're usually more willing to freight. It's easier to source a snake from someone with a big name then find a breeder.


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## Norm (May 25, 2014)

Gizmo101 said:


> A lot of people also go to the commercialised sellers over private breeders. It's more easily accessible and they're usually more willing to freight. It's easier to source a snake from someone with a big name then find a breeder.



You usually pay more for the same thing through a commercial breeder though.

Something I`ve just considered is this; I currently have diamond intergrades for sale, they are natural intergrades, not crosses being sold off as pure. I know this can scare some people off because they don't fully understand what an intergrade is, but I wonder how they would sell if I advertised them as diamond/ coastal crosses? Would people be more willing to buy one for the same price?


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## Gizmo101 (May 25, 2014)

I agree that you definitely pay more for them, buts it's amazing how the ease and convince factor comes into it. 


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## Norm (May 25, 2014)

Yeah I know what your saying, probably close to half of my inquiries have asked me to freight but I cant be stuffed!


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## Frizz (May 25, 2014)

I reckon maybe you'd get more people from listing them as a cross instead of an intergrade because like dogs are crosses and people are familiar with dogs.


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## junglepython2 (May 25, 2014)

The only reason people are wary of intergrades is because they think the seller may selling crosses instead of pure intergrades. I can't see how selling them as crosses would increase sales.


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## Norm (May 25, 2014)

"The only reason people are wary of intergrades is because they think the seller may selling crosses instead of pure intergrades. I can't see how selling them as crosses would increase sales."

Because people are more open to crosses now than they were a couple of years ago.


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## junglepython2 (May 25, 2014)

They may be more open to them, but if you have two identical looking snakes and one is pure and one is cross, the pure snake is always going to be worth more. No one is going to pay more for a snake purely because it is a cross, but plenty of people (sure not everyone) but a lot would value a pure snake more.


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## Gaboon (May 25, 2014)

People are just waiting for basic wow factor animals to drop in price, like the albino darwins. When you can get a bright yellow and white snake for low cost, why would you buy a stimi or a natural intergrade or any wow factor lacking snake. keepers are in no rush to make new purchases of anything. People want something new even if its labeled a 'jag sib' they have no idea they just want something that's 'new' or sounds new. People aren't more open to crosses they just think they are allowed to be, they can be told what to think, just like with everything in society. Proberly watch alot of tv too. They were not allowed to like them or own them (even tho they could and its not really anyone's business what you have in your home) before because the herd did not allow it. 


My advice to anyone would be to not breed anything. Including your dogs, cats, fish, snakes or anything and don't even breed your self.


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## mikey_mike (May 25, 2014)

borntobnude said:


> would they sell better if I added %0 possible albino !! ??


How can you rule out spontaneous mutations? Claiming it's 0% without evidence is misrepresentation.
Perhaps try an improbably small % chance of het for albino?

Good luck.


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## MissDangerous (May 25, 2014)

You're on the money there with the breeding statement [MENTION=40353]Gaboon[/MENTION], don't even get me started on the heartbreaking wastage of the horse industry...

Now back to snakes.. To me, there is no "wow factor" like a stunning red belly, a 'standard' BHP to me is breathtaking, and I'd take my 'average' Darwin over the most fashionable Jag on offer. I know others share this approach, and would pay good money for quality animals. However from what I've seen, it does seem like almost every reptile keeper 'has a go' at breeding, which makes you wonder where all the resulting animals end up.. If it is in the marketplace, then it makes sense that the general value is decreased, unless you are a breeder who is known for quality lines and can charge accordingly.

Good luck with the sale, I hope you find great homes for your hatchies [MENTION=19150]Norm[/MENTION] and [MENTION=12396]borntobnude[/MENTION]


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## champagne (May 25, 2014)

Standard run of the mill snakes have always been harder to move. Why would someone buy average reptiles, just to produce more average reptiles that don't sell? And on the other hand if you only have room, time and money to feed a couple of reptile. Why would you buy average reptiles when for a few dollars more at the start you can keep high end animals. Quality animals sell for a good price and always will.


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## SarahScales (May 25, 2014)

I manage a pet store that sells reptiles and it's incredibly frustrating for me to hear customers say "I am going to breed these in a few years and get my money back", I try to explain to them how normal Ball Pythons and Corn Snakes are now free to good home in the UK because every amateur breeder 'has a go' with no intent on breeding anything special. However explaining supply and demand doesn't seem to work, they just want to make a quick, easy dollar off breeding reptiles because they think it's some crazy niche that no one has thought of before. Little do they know that the market is already incredibly flooded with normal Childrens and Blonde Macs... There is just no reasoning with people who have had reptiles a week and think they are going to make a fortune off their new Childrens python...


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## FAY (May 25, 2014)

I sell to a lot of first time reptile people that have no interest in breeding but just want a few pets.


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## montysrainbow (May 25, 2014)

Throw a few glam words in the add like rare , pure or extreme lol will sell them in no time


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## Norm (May 25, 2014)

I hope people haven`t misinterpreted my posts in this thread as whinging because nobody wants to buy my snakes, that's not the case at all. I`ve simply used my situation as an example to get a point across.

Generally I feel there probably are too many snakes being bred, or rather theres an over supply at the moment, especially in "normal" or "wild" type snakes as demand is shifting to morphs, even amongst newer keepers.


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## ingie (May 25, 2014)

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to think quality and special markings/colour, are the same thing, and unless something is fluro reduced pattern zig zag rainbow lollipop, that is is poor quality. Of course all the new morphs and crosses are going to look really unusual compared to some of the more traditional specimens available, so the oldies become harder to move.

Every Tom Dick and his dog still wants to breed everything they have though, regardless of demand or if they have the resources to keep all the offspring if they don't move, so they flood the market with cheap deals. 

People love to "rescue" things. Give your available snakes a sob story and they will fly out the window.


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## yommy (May 25, 2014)

Instead of being the next big reptile breeder for a quick buck, Go into breeding rodents cause if the markets so flooded animals got to eat......
And i know i send a future on rodents 
I have a few nice project but all wont be paired this season due to the supply and demand issue, plus i like to rest females after ever few clutches.
Those into for the quick buck never last long and those into it for the passion will keep ticking along.........


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## Woma_Wild (May 26, 2014)

I purchased both my girls (woma & Pygmy ) from the expo because I want to see the animal that I'm buying and I like to meet and chat to the breeders.
Personally, I would not buy over the net. 

Sales may be down on the average "garden " variety because people are waiting for something different to become available, eg/ those pied stimsons or some other X.
I hope that this wont happen like it has with other animals ie/ those mongrel dogs they call Designer Dogs.


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## bdav70 (May 26, 2014)

I paid $400 for a wheaty around 4 months ago purely because the breeder and their animals had been so highly recommended. I think quality and reputation also plays a role, as i was willing to go on a waiting list and pay that amount when I could probably have hunted around a found a less experienced breeder and got it for half that


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## jacorin (May 26, 2014)

i think your going to hear a lot more sob stories "my snake escaped" but i cant really afford to keep it anyway,the bills are to too high..maybe the breeders should think about laying off for a season or two???? not saying this will happen,but the way things are going,it's a definate possibility,that's all

and it won't be just reptiles that "escape" "die" etc...... there will be a lot more dogs,cats,birds etc as ppl find they can't afford to have their animals,

just my own eg: we pay of a house,got the usual bills, have 13 birds,1 dog,12 snakes,so many mice(lol) own our own business.

we are having trouble paying the bills because the shop is only just making enough to pay house loan and 1 or 2 bills,we are behind in others,we haven't shopped for groceries in over 2 mths. but always scrape together enough to have the feed for the animals. i swap mice for rats for the bigger snakes.


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## Newhere (May 26, 2014)

I can't wait until there is too many gtps being bred


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## Jacknife (May 26, 2014)

market trends. simple.


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## Radar (May 26, 2014)

Everyone wants something different (fair enough). Unfortnately many people get into this hobby simply for the 'wow cool you've got a pet snake, you're so ******' factor instead of the 'wow cool, check out that unique and interesting behaviour that my native Australian pet just displayed' factor. Nice colours make nice displays, and I'm as keen on that as the next kid, but if all people want is one nice display it means they're going to choose a single, top end animal. Only once people actually develop an interest in behaviours, ecology, etc etc (a more holistic approach) will they probably have an interest in wild type animals.


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## GeckoJosh (May 28, 2014)

Just depends on what the flavour of the month is, I have some common species that I cannot keep up with the demand no matter how many I breed, but yet something comparably uncommon like a Painted Dragon I am struggling to move on, 3-4 years ago it would have easily been the other way around.


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## andyscott (May 30, 2014)

Yes, there are to many reptiles being bred.
Thats one of the reasons Ive sold up most of my collection.
In the past 3 years, Ive sold up all my BHPs, Womas, Frillies, and even my Albino &Het Olives.
I dont belive people should keep breeding, when there is no room left in the hobby.
We still have a handful of reptiles but atm they are pet only.


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## yommy (May 30, 2014)

what did you keep Andy??


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## Blinky (May 30, 2014)

I'd have to say yes and no OP. Too many mixed "average" snakes are being flooded yes but there will always be a demand for pure lines, locality lines, morphs etc.


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## andyscott (May 30, 2014)

LOL yommy.
Im sure you have seen my collection on here over the years mate.
Before we moved interstate, the count was 9 BHPs ( axanthics, 100% hets and a couple of 66%) 6 Womas, an Albino and 100% het Olive pair, many Albino and Het Darwins, Frillies, Accies, Lacey, Freshie, geckos, ect.
All we have now is a pair of Darwins (Albino & het) on the fence about sellig them off, as Im not real fused about breeding them.
Yet they are high quality pythons.
A Sand Monitor that feeds from my hand, its by far the best reptile Ive owned when it comes to interaction and just how active he/she is.
I would be happy to just have my Sandie, Monitors are the best IMO.


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## apprenticegnome (May 30, 2014)

I think the economy coupled with the proposed budget is strangling everything at the moment. A few friends are complaining about slow down in their businesses with 1 even saying that worked dried up the day the budget was announced. Reptile supply might also be hitting its peak but I would think the latter is more the main cause.


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## Shane09 (May 31, 2014)

I am still very new to the reptile hobby with acquiring 2 sibling Darwin carpets (1 albino for wow factor) in feb this year. I was told from the beginning to start with something easy like a bredli or childrens (bredli most likely to be my next one cause they are so gorgeous) or the many other great beginner breeds all of which I have noticed the great abundance of. I know I cant be the only person new to this hobby that isn't proud to say (when asked) that I have owned them from hatchies. I mean sure maybe 10 years down the track when I have the extensive knowledge and understanding I'd love to get into breeding scene but I would like to think there are many more newbies out there who are just as content as I to start where we are supposed to. 

P.S snakes rock!


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## Cockney_Red (May 31, 2014)

have had some really nice high green Diamonds for sale at 250, a fraction of what some people are asking for the colour......Give up now! am selling a few as presentation animals to local councils and keeping the rest....over It!


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## Bart70 (May 31, 2014)

I am following this thread with some interest....

When I recently made the decision to attempt some (small) breeding projects it was for my thirst for knowledge, understanding and experience with reptiles. I have an 'almost teenage' boy who has been reptile focused since he was a toddler and joins me on our Herpetology Club field trips etc....The desire to learn and understand these animals is strong between us both. We have a genuine interest and intrigue with the animals.

The thought of making money never entered the equation - having bred purebred animals (mammalian) in a past life and having experience with the continuous money pit that breeding is, my natural instinct was not dollar focused - it never entered my mind. Many don't have this foresight however.

It concerns me when I see keepers nearby 'stocking up' on everything they can so they can breed and go out 'selling' next year and apparently make a fortune.....I know there are going to be a lot of animals going cheap around this area next year as reality sets in - This area doesn't see a huge demand at the best of times and I can't see that changing anytime soon. Fortunately my breeding plans do not involve significant numbers of animals....I can gain as much knowledge producing 2 clutches as I can 10, and have planned to have the capacity to keep them for an extended period if I need to.

Personally, with some breeding experience I can see myself heading off towards the more rare or less kept pure animals like vens etc.....but my python breeding path is my 'schoolground' for learning on my journey....my plans are to produce small numbers because I know I could have to keep them for a while before they find their new homes. I don't thing a lot of others are thinking this way however....


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## apprenticegnome (May 31, 2014)

I don't see any thing wrong with breeding a few snakes or lizards as a means to offset operating costs and don't see it as a big money earner. From some posts, not just in this thread I get the feeling that some keepers/breeders try to deter others from breeding so as to illiminate competition. If a glut in the market drops prices it is hard on the breeder but is good for the consumer. There is a wealth of knowledge that can be gained by breeding when done for the right reasons and if it turns into a profitable eneterprise for some then its a bonus. To condemn breeders is to condemn the hobby as without it most of us would be without snakes or lizards. Just as long as we take due care if things don't quite run smooth such as holding onto offspring longer than expected. I expect the market will cycle back round and things will move as before.


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## Grogshla (May 31, 2014)

its good for people who aren't breeding snakes. Buying snakes will just become easier and cheaper. This suits me fine


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## insitu (May 31, 2014)

its a funny scene, no one wants to spend money on anything but they all want something of high value.

you could put a nice looking snake up for sale for $500 and get plenty of inquiries and interest but probably no sale, put the same snake up for $50 and people would think its rubbish and not inquire about it at all

I sold 2 adult pairs of good quality womas 1pr RHD's the other sandfire for $300 the lot, the add ended up above another add for 1 colourless woma for $750 that had at least 10 replys, I only got 2 inquiries one was asking what was wrong with them


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## junglepython2 (May 31, 2014)

insitu said:


> its a funny scene, no one wants to spend money on anything but they all want something of high value.
> 
> you could put a nice looking snake up for sale for $500 and get plenty of inquiries and interest but probably no sale, put the same snake up for $50 and people would think its rubbish and not inquire about it at all
> 
> I sold 2 adult pairs of good quality womas 1pr RHD's the other sandfire for $300 the lot, the add ended up above another add for 1 colourless woma for $750 that had at least 10 replys, I only got 2 inquiries one was asking what was wrong with them



As stupid as that sounds it is so true. I had some pythons up for awhile, I couldn't even attract tyre kickers. Took some fresh pics added 50% to the price and they all sold within a couple of weeks.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jun 1, 2014)

Any animals that are selectively bred by humans purely for ascetics end up the same. In search for something unique hundreds of unwanted animals suffer.
How many mutts are bred every year and end up having to be put down by animal welfare society's


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## Ramsayi (Jun 1, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> As stupid as that sounds it is so true. I had some pythons up for awhile, I couldn't even attract tyre kickers. Took some fresh pics added 50% to the price and they all sold within a couple of weeks.


 
Same.A few years ago I had a clutch of hypo bredli that I just wanted to move on quickly.Put them up for $150 and the only enquiry I got was from one guy wanting to know if I would lower the price.
A couple of months later I advertised them again,this time for $350 and they sold like hot cakes.


I can't say I've seen any problems with the numbers bred these days as I still move on everything I breed.


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## Radar (Jun 1, 2014)

"Investment potential" is a funny thing to people looking to make a buck - the more they pay for something the more they think it will make them....


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## beastcreature (Jun 1, 2014)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Any animals that are selectively bred by humans purely for ascetics end up the same. In search for something unique hundreds of unwanted animals suffer.
> How many mutts are bred every year and end up having to be put down by animal welfare society's



I get what you're saying & I don't want to direct the thread off course but the issue of over population in dogs has been subject to debate. It's widely assumed that there aren't enough humans to accommodate the number of dogs bred annually, I don't see shelters not being able to find suitable homes for a percentage of their animals as concrete proof of that, especially considering registered breeders often have homes found for puppies even before they're conceived. 

There are so many variables - quality, suitability, stereotyping, marketing etc so to call it an overpopulation problem can be misleading.


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## Aelodrea (Jun 2, 2014)

Personally i think its a big flavour of the month thing.It may been chill for a while, not many pythons or reps being sold readily but then next year it could boom.There are always different factors, quality, price etc that has a large impact on buyers and i guess it also depends where you sell... as is the way of markets for everything i think.It will have its ups and downs in moments, like everything else.I only have one python at the moment, i plan on getting him a girlfriend and i want to get 2 womas to breed, but its something i dont want to do every single season and more of less a learning experience + enjoyment of this great hobby, ive loved pythons ever since i was a little girl and i always will.
Not to mention, the thought of earning cash never really came into my mind as huge importance, the reward is being able to love and care for these creatures is whats most rewarding to me.
Everyone is different.


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## bdav70 (Jun 3, 2014)

As Bart touched on, when I see people advertising to basically get their hands on any snake possible so that they can begin breeding it makes me cringe. I wonder how many of the snakes on here who aren't feeding well were sold by breeders who hadn't established them as feeders well enough before letting them go. IMO if you're looking at making a 20 year commitment for the lifespan of your animal I don't see the point of saving 200 bucks and going to just any old breeder 


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## moosenoose (Jun 3, 2014)

It's why I don't breed anything :lol:


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## coastals (Jun 3, 2014)

The problem is that everyone thinks the highest level of the hobby is to be a breeder and breeders like to try to push pairs rather then singles. If breeders stopped selling sexed animals it would cut down on the inexperienced from breeding and push the hobby towards keeping.


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## Red-Ink (Jun 3, 2014)

Does it matter how many snakes people are breeding?


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## longqi (Jun 3, 2014)

Red-Ink said:


> Does it matter how many snakes people are breeding?



In some ways it matters red
From what Ive noticed there are too many very ordinary snakes etc hitting the market
example
there are many gorgeous jags out there
but this year seems a lot for sale that dont bear any resemblance to gorgeous

Same thing can be said for other colour/pattern morphs too

with morphs in particular great care should be taken to enhance rather than detract from the morph imo
enhancing the morph requires forward planning and good breeding stock

in a couple of years some will be released
owner has taken his time with best of the best
hopefully they will open a few eyes to what can really be done if you dont just toss some snakes together and hope 

Quality sells


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## coastals (Jun 4, 2014)

longqi said:


> In some ways it matters red
> From what Ive noticed there are too many very ordinary snakes etc hitting the market
> example
> there are many gorgeous jags out there
> ...



Those gorgeous jags still have a lot of ordinary clutch mates and these are what the breeders sell.


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## GeckoJosh (Jun 4, 2014)

longqi said:


> In some ways it matters red
> From what Ive noticed there are too many very ordinary snakes etc hitting the market
> example
> there are many gorgeous jags out there
> ...



And what happens to the by product clutch mates?


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## RedFox (Jun 4, 2014)

Lots of very ordinary pure and mixed animals on the market... Good bloodlines sell, nice colours and patterns sell, different sell... Plain looking animals don't. 

I've seen quite a few people breeding average looking, lower end reptiles to "gain experience", without considering clutch sizes, saleability and how many offspring they can financially support long term. 

Would euthanasia be an acceptable way to deal with excess stock?


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## Red-Ink (Jun 4, 2014)

If people take responsibility for what happens post incubation, it doesn't really matter how many or whatever is being bred.

Options:
Sell
Sell cheap
Free
Keep
Reptile food

Pick any of those choices or a combination of all then the numbers don't matter...


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## coastals (Jun 4, 2014)

Are Australian reptiles really being over bred? corns snakes and normal ball pythons in usa sell for $25ea so I don't think we have reached saturation point yet. I think people forget that a reptile is only worth what someone is willing to pay. There will be a point where run of the mill reptiles in Australia will sell for $25, if you don't want to sell for market price either keep them or don't breed simple really.


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## Mr.Self-destruct (Jun 4, 2014)

I've stayed out of this thread for a while so I'll put in my two cents. If you want the herp trade in this country to ever take off then market saturation is completely necessary. As an American living here I'm jaw drop shocked at how expensive YOUR OWN SPECIES OF SNAKES ARE. I can buy a gtp in the US for 350-400 per hatchy. Why? Because of market saturation. Lots of people owning, lots of people breeding, lots of people selling. 

That's a bad thing, think about the animals blah blah blah. There are always going to be people out there that don't breed responsibly. If you ever want prices to drop on animals, less wild caught individuals and less stigma from the general public then flooding the market with cheap snakes that your average Joe is willing to buy to get into herps will do it. And honestly, if you breed, expect to keep most of what you produce sometimes to adulthood or just don't bother breeding.

Have woes as a breeder that you're not making as much on the snakes you bought because they dropped in value because so many people are breeding now? When more people get into keeping herps because of more commonly available snakes (think what corn snakes and ball pythons have done for the US herp trade) you will have many more buyers on the market in years to come.

- - - Updated - - -



RedFox said:


> Would euthanasia be an acceptable way to deal with excess stock?



I'd say a RBB, woma, lacey or copperhead is a great way to get rid of most surplus.


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## Red-Ink (Jun 4, 2014)

Mr.Self-destruct said:


> I've stayed out of this thread for a while so I'll put in my two cents. If you want the herp trade in this country to ever take off then market saturation is completely necessary. As an American living here I'm jaw drop shocked at how expensive YOUR OWN SPECIES OF SNAKES ARE. I can buy a gtp in the US for 350-400 per hatchy. Why? Because of market saturation. Lots of people owning, lots of people breeding, lots of people selling.
> 
> That's a bad thing, think about the animals blah blah blah. There are always going to be people out there that don't breed responsibly. If you ever want prices to drop on animals, less wild caught individuals and less stigma from the general public then flooding the market with cheap snakes that your average Joe is willing to buy to get into herps will do it. And honestly, if you breed, expect to keep most of what you produce sometimes to adulthood or just don't bother breeding.
> 
> ...



313 million people Vs 22.3 million people

Walking into a pet store full of CB and imports and pointing to a $25 snake on an impulse buy Vs CB supplied specimens in a specialised licensed retailer who'll will ask you if you have the appropriate legal license to purchase the reptile

Couple that with state by state differing legislations as to what can and can not be kept in that state...

It ain't as simple as "market saturation"....


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## RedFox (Jun 5, 2014)

[MENTION=40181]Mr.Self-destruct[/MENTION]

GTP are a very poor example as the cheaper prices are due also to import laws, not necessarily excessive breeding. If you can find a pure Australian GTP over there for less than what we would pay I would be very surprised. There are plenty of GTP that go for over $1000 in the US. 

There are plenty of animals that get sold for $50 or less here, that would attract the 'average Joe'. But is producing an excessive amount of average looking animals the best way to attract the 'average Joe' and should euthanasia of excess animals become common place like it is for other animals like dogs, cats, horses? 

Licenses and fees are more likely to stop the 'average Joe' impulse buying and getting involved, as a $25 snake quickly turns into a $100 one with license fees on top.


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## coastals (Jun 5, 2014)

RedFox said:


> @Mr.Self-destruct
> 
> GTP are a very poor example as the cheaper prices are due also to import laws, not necessarily excessive breeding. If you can find a pure Australian GTP over there for less than what we would pay I would be very surprised. There are plenty of GTP that go for over $1000 in the US.
> 
> ...



do you really think someone who buys a $25 reptile is going to get a license?


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## ingie (Jun 5, 2014)

The person selling the reptile should be making sure that their customers already have a license.


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## coastals (Jun 5, 2014)

ingie said:


> The person selling the reptile should be making sure that their customers already have a license.



When a breeder has 20 plus ordinary coastals, selling them for $50 ea and still having trouble selling all of them I doubt they will care either way. They should but from experience they don't.


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## Red-Ink (Jun 5, 2014)

coastals said:


> When a breeder has 20 plus ordinary coastals, selling them for $50 ea and still having trouble selling all of them I doubt they will care either way. *They should but from experience they don't*.



So you've bought animals without a license or sold animals to unlicensed people from experience?


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## Shimma (Jun 5, 2014)

I think people are forgetting the real reason they got into reptiles to start with. Is it really about money and covering costs etc etc? If that's your main concerns then your in it for the wrong reason's. If your not prepared to keep hatchlings yourself then don't breed them for any reason! I think licensing and laws in this country need a major overhaul.


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## reaver (Jun 5, 2014)

Rare and interesting morphs don't necessarily mean they are more likely to sell and at a higher price. Till the reptile expos earlier this year I was looking for interesting childreni but how often do you see Elcho island, T+, patternless, etc. come up and even when they do they are dirt cheap compared to more common morphs. There's just no demand for them so very few people breed and sell them. I made a point of getting there early because there are so few available and sure enough there was only one t+ left and 2 patternless/rp. The cost was amazing when you consider there were close to a dozen albino darwins selling from $700-$1k each while the t+ childreni were $600 and patternless/rp only $250, I didn't see the price on the ghosts but I was considering getting one of them.

Is there too many reptiles being bred? dunno but there are people who shouldn't be breeding. I would like to one day out of interest but I don't have the space or the time. Of course I know people who have had one snake for a very short time then get another with the intention of breeding some rare morph and selling them quickly to make a buck.


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## coastals (Jun 5, 2014)

Red-Ink said:


> So you've bought animals without a license or sold animals to unlicensed people from experience?


No I've brought animals and had to insist on getting movement advice and seeing their license but thumbs up for being such a good keyboard warrior.


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## Red-Ink (Jun 5, 2014)

coastals said:


> No I've brought animals and had to insist on getting movement advice and seeing their license but thumbs up for being such a good keyboard warrior.




Wasn't being a keyboard warrior... I was trying to get clarification on what was an ambiguous sentence hence this punctuation mark "*?*"at the end of my statement. Settle down sunshine in calling people keyboard warriors... just in case you haven't met the kettle.


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## turtle (Jun 5, 2014)

Definately not too many snakes being bred, just too many idiots breeding anything they can.
If you look at it, its actually not such a bad thing. We need these idiots to differentiate between good quality stock and low grade animals. I need these people anyway as people can usually see the difference straight away when you compare one of my coastals to a low grade coastal as an example.

Thanks, Dan


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## champagne (Jun 6, 2014)

Firstly I agree there are some cowboy breeders that just breed anything together trying to make a quick dollar. There are also responsible breeders out there that have bred normal looking reptiles and some of these ''low grade animals'' have produced single gene modes of inheritance morphs and most of the ''high quality animals'' came from line breeding so at one stage they would of come from a ''lower quality animal''. Don't forget that some people just want a pet snake but cant justify paying $500 plus for a snake, if a $50 normal ''wild type'' reptile gets them in to keeping reptiles then I personally think its a good thing.


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## Woma_Wild (Jun 6, 2014)

I don't think the number of true breeders has increased. What has increased are all the new owners wanting to breed for whatever reason. Now that the law has changed in NSW, I have seen an increase in reptiles for sale.
IMO, same as with every other animal, breeders should have a special licence to breed and perhaps a governing body to control them.
eg/ DOGS NSW- breeders cannot breed their bitches every season and pups must be registered. Heavy fines have been put in place . Of course, there will always be backyard breeders out to make money.


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## PDM_Pythons (Jun 6, 2014)

There's to many people still around with old views...get with the times


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## Woma_Wild (Jun 6, 2014)

PDM_Pythons said:


> There's toO many people still around with old views...get with the times



Meaning ?


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## junglepython2 (Jun 6, 2014)

Woma_Wild said:


> I don't think the number of true breeders has increased. What has increased are all the new owners wanting to breed for whatever reason. Now that the law has changed in NSW, I have seen an increase in reptiles for sale.
> IMO, same as with every other animal, breeders should have a special licence to breed and perhaps a governing body to control them.
> eg/ DOGS NSW- breeders cannot breed their bitches every season and pups must be registered. Heavy fines have been put in place . Of course, there will always be backyard breeders out to make money.



Why should breeders need a special license!?!?! The less government interference the better. What possible benefit does it offer, other than encouraging an elitist branch of the hobby and increasing fees.

Plus what is with this stigma associated with "backyard breeders"? If you aren't a backyard breeder you are a commercial operation. I'd buy an animal off a backyard breeder who knows there animal over a commercial breeder more times than not. Most of the most respected members of the hobby are 'backyard breeders' so I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about.

Sounds like most of the fuss is from people who bought animals for top dollar and are peeved they won't make there money back when they breed them. All sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Once the market gets saturated, which has already happened with several species the breedings will slow down. As long as animals aren't getting dumped or mistreated there shouldn't an issue.


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## Woma_Wild (Jun 6, 2014)

_o_


junglepython2 said:


> Why should breeders need a special license!?!?! The less *government* interference the better. What possible benefit does it offer, other than encouraging an elitist branch of the hobby and increasing fees.
> Plus what is with this stigma associated with "backyard breeders"? If you aren't a backyard breeder you are a commercial operation. I'd buy an animal off a backyard breeder who knows there animal over a commercial breeder more times than not. Most of the most respected members of the hobby are 'backyard breeders' so I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about.
> 
> Sounds like most of the fuss is from people who bought animals for top dollar and are peeved they won't make there money back when they breed them. All sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Once the market gets saturated, which has already happened with several species the breedings will slow down. As long as animals aren't getting dumped or mistreated there shouldn't an issue.



1. The government has nothing to do with it. 
2. You are taking the term back yard breeders literally. Backyard breeders are those that have little to no empathy for animals they over breed. They breed regardless of the animals health and possible hereditary defects.
3. I have no problem paying top dollar for an animal if I know that I am purchasing healthy sound animals from a reputable and ethical breeder. 

Flooding the market will decrease prices but what will the quality of the animals be if half of them are bred by people that are only in it for the money and not too concerned about animals.


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## beastcreature (Jun 6, 2014)

It's blanket terminology for irresponsible breeding. I can't say I've seen it applied to reptile breeders all that often but the phrase sure gets plenty of exercise from registered dog breeders.


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## Wally (Jun 6, 2014)

Woma_Wild said:


> 2. You are taking the term back yard breeders literally. Backyard breeders are those that have little to no empathy for animals they over breed. They breed regardless of the animals health and possible hereditary defects.



It's a term open to interpretation. I've only ever considered myself as such but could never accept your terms of definition.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 6, 2014)

Woma_Wild said:


> _o_
> 
> 1. The government has nothing to do with it.
> 2. You are taking the term back yard breeders literally. Backyard breeders are those that have little to no empathy for animals they over breed. They breed regardless of the animals health and possible hereditary defects.
> ...



Most "backyard breeders" are only breeding for the experience. Anyone who is pumping out spotteds or average coastals and think they will be making a mint will quickly find they are mistaken and change their ways. I am not sure how you are drawing the line between responsible breeders, commercial breeders and your dreaded backyard breeder. The commercial breeders are in it for the money more than any of them yet no ones seems to have an issue with them. 

I'd also like to know how you quantify quality? Most people seem to define quality of an animal purely on its appearance. If that is the case then a poor quality animal is just as healthy and ethical as a top quality one so once again I don't see an issue. 

Comparing snake breeding to dog breeding makes about as much sense as comparing hybrid snakes to mongrel dogs. It's like chalk and cheese.


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## beastcreature (Jun 6, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> I'd also like to know how you quantify quality? Most people seem to define quality of an animal purely on its appearance. If that is the case then a poor quality animal is just as healthy and ethical as a top quality one so once again I don't see an issue.



I've wondered the same thing reading this thread, it does seem that quality is equated with desirability.



junglepython2 said:


> Comparing snake breeding to dog breeding makes about as much sense as comparing hybrid snakes to mongrel dogs. It's like chalk and cheese.



I'm not sure it's that ridiculous, you can draw a lot of similarities looking at animal breeders in general.


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## marcus0002 (Jun 6, 2014)

Could someone put up some comparison photos of high quality coastals etc next to photos of low quality etc?


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## Woma_Wild (Jun 7, 2014)

Sorry, I perhaps I should have used a different term rather than " quality"
What I'm trying to say is breeding healthy sound animals. Breeding for a purpose as opposed to make $. 
I fail to see how a comparison between animal species makes a difference because an animal is a living creature that deserves correct care and correct selective breeding to ensure any offspring are free of hereditary disease, are bred to a certain standard, etc.


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## marcus0002 (Jun 7, 2014)

I wouldn't imagine unhealthy animals would be as easy to breed as healthy ones. Could you be more specific as to what you are referring to with hereditary disease and what do you mean by 'a certain standard'?
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## LittleHiss (Jun 7, 2014)

marcus0002 said:


> I wouldn't imagine unhealthy animals would be as easy to breed as healthy ones. Could you be more specific as to what you are referring to with hereditary disease and what do you mean by 'a certain standard'?
> Cheers
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk



They might not be AS easy to breed, and they might take longer to get the job done because they are weak, but you chuck a male and a female together, and they will breed, as is seen in the squalid, disease-ridden, malnourished puppy farms all over this country. Every animal has an instinct to breed. So, unhealthy animals will breed, but they may not carry their young to term, and if they do, as again seen in puppy farms, their young is often weak and has a "failure to thrive". It's the same with all animals really, including humans.

Also, to me, the "quality" of an animal refers to its health. Its eagerness to eat, ability to digest and absorb nutrients affectively, a high amount of muscle compared to fat, its temperament (I realise that this does differ from species to species, but an unhealthy animal will be more reluctant to be handled and possibly sluggish) and its ability to shed cleanly.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 7, 2014)

Woma_Wild said:


> Sorry, I perhaps I should have used a different term rather than " quality"
> What I'm trying to say is breeding healthy sound animals. Breeding for a purpose as opposed to make $.
> I fail to see how a comparison between animal species makes a difference because an animal is a living creature that deserves correct care and correct selective breeding to ensure any offspring are free of hereditary disease, are bred to a certain standard, etc.



Once again you are trying to use terms from dog breeding that hold little relevance with herps. Just about all Australian captive reptiles are less than 20 generations from wildcaught stock. There hasn't been enough time to develop a 'standard' The only real difference we see is in colour and pattern, there is very little if any structural difference to have a developed standard. Plus even if there was a standard, just about all breeders are aiming to breed something "different" which flies in the face of breeding to a standard anyway.

In terms of hereditary disease the only ones in reptiles that spring to mind are some of the morphs such as Jags and Zebs. These are actively selected FOR by morph breeders not against like in the dog world. Also we don't see the negative results of inbreeding like you do in mammals or at least not yet.

People need to learn to breed to a market, there is no point breeding average run of the mill animals that you can't move on. People doing this will quickly find it doesn't pay and stop doing it. However these average animals are just as healthy if not more so then the $1000 multiple morph animals so once again as long as they aren't getting dumped or mistreated then there isn't an issue.


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## Woma_Wild (Jun 7, 2014)

LittleHiss said:


> They might not be AS easy to breed, and they might take longer to get the job done because they are weak, but you chuck a male and a female together, and they will breed, as is seen in the squalid, disease-ridden, malnourished puppy farms all over this country. Every animal has an instinct to breed. So, unhealthy animals will breed, but they may not carry their young to term, and if they do, as again seen in puppy farms, their young is often weak and has a "failure to thrive". It's the same with all animals really, including humans.
> 
> Also, to me, the "quality" of an animal refers to its health. Its eagerness to eat, ability to digest and absorb nutrients affectively, a high amount of muscle compared to fat, its temperament (I realise that this does differ from species to species, but an unhealthy animal will be more reluctant to be handled and possibly sluggish) and its ability to shed cleanly.



Thank you. At least you understand what I'm trying to get at.


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## champagne (Jun 7, 2014)

So we shouldn't be breeding ''wild type'' reptiles because they don't sell fast enough, fetch top dollar and take up available space for the high end animals thus flooding the market. But we should breed the latest top fade morphs (most of which have some health issues) because they will sell faster and get a high dollar value? This is all a bit of a joke... All reptiles have a place in the hobby, we are no where near saturation point. The cheaper the reptiles the more people will come into the hobby.


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## Ramsayi (Jun 7, 2014)

What's interesting is the amount of people commenting in this thread who don't breed reptiles.Lot's of assumptions being thrown about without very much first hand experience.


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## Bushfire (Jun 7, 2014)

I don't think there are too many snakes or other reptiles being bred. I think its more a case of todays breeders are expecting returns per hatchling as what they paid per hatchling back when their breeders were hatchlings ie. 3 - 4 years ago I paid x amount each for a hatchling so now I want that same x amount ea for these hatchlings; or they are expecting the same price as that of the well known breeder of their animals is currently getting, and as what is been seen this isn't the case at all. An oldish example I can think of was in Gammon Ranges Carpets, the same year that Southern Cross Reptile were selling their hatchling at $600 ea and getting it, another lesser known keeper with the exact same bloodlines was struggling to sell them at $180ea. But the because of the minor detail of this keeper wasn't Southern Cross meant there was little interest in his young. I imagine there are many examples of this with other keepers and the larger breeders as well. This is something that many of todays keepers turn breeders are struggling to accept. 

Another thing is today's so called top shelf animals is tomorrows run of the mill animal. The animals qualities haven't changed its the markets perception or desirability of them that as. All the talk about the market flooded with low quality stock is total BS. So it looks like we have come to an end of wild types fetching high $, it isn't too bad, I for one love having many species within my price range that as a young boy could only dream that these species be kept in captivity at all. If you are wanting to breed run of the mill animals, go ahead it isn't so bad when you are passionate about them, just remember sometimes its better to sell 5 snakes at $50 then only selling 1 at $250 and being unable to move the rest on but holding out thinking things will pick up.


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## PDM_Pythons (Jun 7, 2014)

Arrrr some sensible answers at last


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## Waterrat (Jun 7, 2014)

Why is breeding considered by many, especially newbies, to be the pinnacle of reptile keeping? Sure, it's exciting and interesting but so are other aspects of reptile keeping. In these days breeding seems almost like a graduation into the upper sphere of keeping. Is it all about money? Just thinking loud.


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## Norm (Jun 7, 2014)

I think the natural progression leads to breeding, it's normal a thing after keeping for a while to want to try your hand at breeding. It was for me anyway, I've always had an interest in breeding animals, I used to breed birds and if I had a big enough yard would probably try breeding elephants!


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## beastcreature (Jun 7, 2014)

Waterrat said:


> Why is breeding considered by many, especially newbies, to be the pinnacle of reptile keeping? Sure, it's exciting and interesting but so are other aspects of reptile keeping. In these days breeding seems almost like a graduation into the upper sphere of keeping. Is it all about money? Just thinking loud.



In most cases I don't believe it is about money, just as with other animal hobbies you see a social hierarchy, exhibitors & breeders constantly striving for approval from fellow hobbyists.


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## RoryBreaker (Jun 7, 2014)

I feel its just the carpet keeping scene that is stuffed. The sibs/castoffs/rubbish that the morph keepers have produced and filtered into the hobby is obscene. Keepers are getting out of carpets in droves.

The proof is in the classifieds, the vast majority of ads are for carpets (hatchies and adults). But I could be biased, I got out of snakes a couple of years ago to just do skinks.


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## champagne (Jun 7, 2014)

I think a lot of people are getting out of carpet morphs because IMO that is were most of the back stabbing and ******ing is in the hobby.


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## Owzi (Jun 8, 2014)

I remember Roy Pails doing a talk a couple of years back- he has been breeding different herp for 20-30 years, he spoke of how he'd seen popularity in some animals come & go... then come back again. An example was Colletts, he bred them in the earlier days & everyone wanted the offspring- a few years later & he struggled to give them away, only to see them in more recent times become harder to find & more sought after.
I can see this happening with Carpets in the not too distant future- who's continuing to produce Murray's, Atherton Jungles, Cape Yorks, Bredlis, etc? Shortly it'll be hard to find something without Jag, Hypermelanistic, Het for something or mixed blood in it.

At the end of the day, keepers need to keep what they are intrigued & fascinated with, not whats rare or what costs more. Trust me when you have the animal home in its enclosure, what others think & what it costs won't come into it anymore- it's just your enjoyment of the species your observing & interacting with.
As for breeding whatever that species is, if you have room for the babies & enjoy having them around I say go for it! If your breeding with only money on your mind, I'd reconsider


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## FAY (Jun 8, 2014)

What is 'old' becomes 'new' again 
I mostly just sell word of mouth.


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