# What makes a Jungle a Jungle ?



## Retic (Aug 1, 2009)

It's a simple question but the answer seems to be very complicated and probably more complicated than it needs to be. 
When is a Jungle a Jungle and not a mcdowelli ?
For example what is the snake in this photo ? Is it mcdowelli or cheynei and why is it one and not the other ? It is a few years old and about 4 feet long.


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## Cheyne_Jones (Aug 1, 2009)

This will be interesting, I am also keen to know how people decide what is what.

In my little experience the first thing I look for is a strong solid black head pattern, with a solid black line along the side of the head through the eye. So going by that I would call it a jungle, but I have no field experience in jungle teritory so I am ready to be proven wrong lol.


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## Barno111 (Aug 1, 2009)

This is a very hard thing to answer as it brings up the topic of hybrids! The way i usally tell the differnce between a jungle and a coastal is the head scales on a coastal tend to be alot larger then a jungle, As well as the head pattern. This is a good topic but it can also be put towards with many other species of the carpet python group!


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## Retic (Aug 1, 2009)

Well I am hoping it is interesting as I have lost count of how many 'what is my snake' threads, only to see no real consensus reached at the end.


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## wranga (Aug 1, 2009)

interesting, tho i wont make a comment either way. maybe worth getting the flame suit on


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## JasonL (Aug 1, 2009)

haha Boa, are you trying to start a wild fire?? :lol:... A jungle is only a jungle when it's found in the Jungle..... But deep down, we all know their all the same thing, thats unless you breed and sell them . OK... if I was to buy a "Jungle " I would expect a Black and Gold animal, with a top length of 4-5 feet, and an attitude worse than my wifes after I get home from a boys night at 6am... Flame On!


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## Retic (Aug 1, 2009)

Actually I want to hear peoples views on this, there is certainly no reason for it to become heated. They are different sub species so by rights should be fairly easily separated but this doesn't seem to be the case. 
Maybe I should have asked for help naming my Jungle then I would have 3 pages by now.


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 1, 2009)

Well Ash, i'm saying your animal in the pic is a Cheynei, as the only reference point for me, is the solid head pattern. Is this correct, as I assume you know the animals lineage?
As far as the genetic stuff, i'm out guys...i'll leave that debate to the smart ones...lol
Interested to hear the opinions though....


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## Retic (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks Scott, as far as I know that snake is a Cape York, I can't be 100% as I didn't catch it or it's offspring  It's not so much about that particular snake as I consider it cheynei but I am interested to hear other peoples views on what makes a top end carpet a mcdowelli or a cheynei. . 
Don't worry it's not only the smart ones who get into the genetics debates


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## W.T.BUY (Aug 1, 2009)

jasonl said:


> haha boa, are you trying to start a wild fire?? :lol:... A jungle is only a jungle when it's found in the jungle..... But deep down, we all know their all the same thing, thats unless you breed and sell them . Ok... If i was to buy a "jungle " i would expect a black and gold animal, with a top length of 4-5 feet, and an attitude worse than my wifes after i get home from a boys night at 6am... Flame on!



pmsl


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## cockney red (Aug 1, 2009)

boa said:


> Actually I want to hear peoples views on this, there is certainly no reason for it to become heated. They are different sub species so by rights should be fairly easily separated but this doesn't seem to be the case.
> Maybe I should have asked for help naming my Jungle then I would have 3 pages by now.


Fluffy...


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## cockney red (Aug 1, 2009)

No expert on Jungles, I think they are more contentious than Diamonds, but not as flammable ...


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## eipper (Aug 1, 2009)

I am watching with interest....as I don't believe that they can be split by way of a key....if they cannot be keyed and genetics tells us that they are the same then.....I reckon you have a Carpet Python...

Cheers,
Scott

Ps still hunting that paper down mate...its been a little hectic of late


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 1, 2009)

boa said:


> Don't worry it's not only the smart ones who get into the genetics debates


Or any other debate for that matter mate...lol  
Nice to see you posting again!


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## Bushfire (Aug 1, 2009)

Life would be so much easier if those that split them up did a half decent job about it, or if everyone that accepted the split asked more probing questions or ignored it till better research was done. However Im with eipper on this I dont believe they can be split.


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## Waterrat (Aug 1, 2009)

This is very similar to what has been discussed in the Antaresia thread. If colour and patters are the only characters distinguishing the subspecies, then it's not much to go by. They have the same scalation, DNA and they readily crossbreed, as been said, just two carpets. I am running for cover now!


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## Khagan (Aug 1, 2009)

Maybe it's neither, maybe it could be a coastal/jungle intergrade? I've always wondered why the only main publicised intergrade is coastal/diamond, but could it be possible a lot of coastals or jungles are intergrades between the two but not thought of that way? Or maybe i could just be way off the mark =p seen as i've never been to coastal or jungle territory, but it seems their "ranges" overlap.


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## JasonL (Aug 1, 2009)

I know nothing about genetics, but one thing I'd really like to know is how different are human genetics around the globe compaired to some of the different species of reptiles that have been carved up into numerous sub species ect.....


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## Troyster (Aug 1, 2009)

JasonL said:


> OK... if I was to buy a "Jungle " I would expect a Black and Gold animal, with a top length of 4-5 feet, and an attitude worse than my wifes after I get home from a boys night at 6am... Flame On!


 


I have a Krauss line Black and Gold Jungle,and while he will hiss at me, my Murray Darling has bitten more times,come to think of it my Jungle has only even struck at me once and that was more of a head butt than a strike.


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## Waterrat (Aug 1, 2009)

Jason,
I am sure if the taxonomists had a go at us, we too would be split into numerous subspecies currently referred as "races". The distinguishing characters would be height and body weight (this would straightaway form two sub-species: fatsos and normos), colour of the skin, patterns wouldn't count because too many people die their hair to weird colours (no consistency) and behavioural patterns would be unreliable too. Habitat partitioning is stuffed by boat people and illegal immigrants and reproductive preferences are ...... not to mention religion,..... oh well.
Just as well that we have political correctness, that keeps the taxonomists at bay. LOL


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## Retic (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks Scott, that was exactly the answer I was looking for. I was told I was irresponsible because I put my 'Jungles' and 'Carpets' on the same page in my book, I think I was just ahead of the times  Seriously though I think everything from here up is a carpet, what they will all be lumped under is anyones guess of course. 
No hurry for that paper, just when you have the time. Thanks. 



eipper said:


> I am watching with interest....as I don't believe that they can be split by way of a key....if they cannot be keyed and genetics tells us that they are the same then.....I reckon you have a Carpet Python...
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott
> ...


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## Col J (Aug 1, 2009)

Waterrat said:


> Jason,
> I am sure if the taxonomists had a go at us, we too would be split into numerous subspecies currently referred as "races". The distinguishing characters would be height and body weight (this would straightaway form two sub-species: fatsos and normos), colour of the skin, patterns wouldn't count because too many people die their hair to weird colours (no consistency) and behavioural patterns would be unreliable too.


 
Geez Waterrat, I'm really having trouble with this subspecies-of-human business. I used to be a normo but gradually intergrading to fatso. My hair was near black, (hypermelanistic maybe?) then changed to grey, (Albino maybe??) then started to fall out, (becoming patternless). Then I am told I am getting cranky as I get older (behavioural changes) so I really am having problems with self-identification.

Confused,

Col J.


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## cockney red (Aug 1, 2009)

Col J said:


> Geez Waterrat, I'm really having trouble with this subspecies-of-human business. I used to be a normo but gradually intergrading to fatso. My hair was near black, (hypermelanistic maybe?) then changed to grey, (Albino maybe??) then started to fall out, (becoming patternless). Then I am told I am getting cranky as I get older (behavioural changes) so I really am having problems with self-identification.
> 
> Confused,
> 
> Col J.


LMFAO Nuff said, for us bipedal carbonites

Little or no difference , genetically. They are all" CARPET CRAWLERS " to quote Peter Gabriel....:lol:


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## pyrodarknessanny (Aug 1, 2009)

well any one who knows any thing about biology knows that COLOR is the absolute LAST thing you look at when deciding what species something is, so other features should be used to determine what it is things like scale orientation head shape? (jungles would have a different shape to coastal, bredilies,diamonds,chrondos ect) 
things like that, then after you've looked at all the other possibilities you can look at color and patterns 

but that's jut my P.O.V


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## licky (Aug 1, 2009)

would expect a Black and Gold animal, with a top length of 4-5 feet, and an attitude worse than my wifes after I get home from a boys night at 6am... Flame On! - JasonL

SPOT ON


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## coz666 (Aug 1, 2009)

its whatever your paperwork tells you it is. doesnt matter if it is purple with a skin collar. ;p


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## jahan (Aug 1, 2009)

Boa, how can you be irrisponsible? jungles,coastal,darwins are all carpets and all carry the same number in the book!


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## Retic (Aug 1, 2009)

Yes exactly.


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## dentech (Aug 1, 2009)

looking at the pic, he looks like he has the same size scales as my male, and deffinately has the same bold lines and colouration as my 2, and as i brought my babies from someone i trust and respect as a breeder and i brought mine as jungles, and my female is more vendictive than my ex-wife with a temper to match, but that said who really cares its a fantastic looking snake so just enjoy it,


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## derekm (Aug 1, 2009)

I think the Morelia genus (composed of only one species, Morelia spilota, IMO) is heading in the same direction as the domestic dog, cat and budgerigar, as far as captives are concerned over the long term. We'll know this for sure when the definitive standards for each type (or sub-species if you must) are written by show societies instead of turning up in the peer-reviewed publications of scientists. (if dog show societies are called kennel clubs, will snake show societies be called hide clubs or click-clack clubs? )

IMO, any sub-species or locality label applied to a Morelia type or individual is only biologically relevant to the extent that it refers to a genetically isolated wild population and its members. (For example, diamonds, coastals and jungles, IMO, are not separate genetically isolated populations, but a single genetically contiguous population with skin-deep local variations.) For a Morelia individual that is permanently prevented from contributing to its wild population's gene pool (or doesn't have a wild population because it was captive bred), any sub-species or locality label applied to it is a label of convenience (a shorthand way of communicating well-known attributes) if no commerce is involved, or a marketing label (like WeetBix or Vegemite) if commerce is involved. Either way, it is not a biologically significant label and should not be respected as one.

I strongly suspect that much or all of this argument applies to the Antaresia genus as well.


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## Barno111 (Aug 2, 2009)

Ok so if the genetics of the morelia family is all the same. Tell my why how is are hybrids, hybrids? this also goes with the antaresia family as well. If it is only colour and pattern between the subspecies, hybrids arent actually hybrids, are they? Becuase the genetics are still the same! Flame suit is on!


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## Waterrat (Aug 2, 2009)

You two sentences are not making much sense Barno.
However, .... are you talking about natural hybrids, i.e. carpets in the wild, or captives? If the DNA for all _Morelia variegata_ (all carpets) is the same, than there are no hybrids. The only valis case would be carpets and diamonds, called intergrades, a naturally occurring cross-breeding in the wild. If you are referring to captive "types" then you can call the hybrids or whatever you like, it's all artificial, highly imaginative and non-valid. Would you call a captive bred "Julatten carpet" X "Palmerson carpet" hybrid? That would be crazy wouldn't it?


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## kupper (Aug 2, 2009)

it looks like a jag jungle LOL


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## scam7278 (Aug 2, 2009)

i think its a mossman carpet


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## BROWNS (Aug 3, 2009)

One thing I would say about jungles is that all I've seen have blue mouths...the head pattern on that one boa doesn't scream jungle as it's not right through the eye and to the tip of the nose and the head pattern isn't the typical skull and crossbone type although we all know jungles can have reduced head patterns however along with that one having a reduced head pattern and although it is said colour doesn't distinguish what species it is however I'd say it also doesn't have the colour typical of any jungle maybe other than some Athertons or Kurandas etc but again its head pattern doesn't follow through to the nose after going through the eye so to speak.

OK genetically there may be many that are alike however we all still recognise a jungle from a murry darling or a coastal etc and as has been mentioned head shape and scalation seems to play a role although I've noticed even Tully jungles have a different head shape to Palmerstons.At first glance at that animal I personally wouldn't have said it's a jungle carpet python but that's just me!!


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## gozz (Aug 3, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> One thing I would say about jungles is that all I've seen have blue mouths...the head pattern on that one boa doesn't scream jungle as it's not right through the eye and to the tip of the nose and the head pattern isn't the typical skull and crossbone type although we all know jungles can have reduced head patterns however along with that one having a reduced head pattern and although it is said colour doesn't distinguish what species it is however I'd say it also doesn't have the colour typical of any jungle maybe other than some Athertons or Kurandas etc but again its head pattern doesn't follow through to the nose after going through the eye so to speak.
> 
> OK genetically there may be many that are alike however we all still recognise a jungle from a murry darling or a coastal etc and as has been mentioned head shape and scalation seems to play a role although I've noticed even Tully jungles have a different head shape to Palmerstons.At first glance at that animal I personally wouldn't have said it's a jungle carpet python but that's just me!!


 I think you have sumed it up perfect Browns


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## Sturdy (Aug 3, 2009)

this could also refrence to pseudechis australis.... they are all 1 big group... 
i wouldnt mind seeing some research done on australis if anyone has info..


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## Retic (Aug 3, 2009)

I think this is the crux of the matter, should it come down to what an individual considers it to be ? Most who have seen the snake say Jungle with little doubt, some say the opposite so who is right ? Jungles should have some form of skull and cross bones pattern on the head but not all do, it isn't the typical colour except some from Atherton or Kuranda so is there a typical colour ? Others well versed in carpets say that a mcdowelli can't have a solid head pattern so does that mean it isn't mcdowelli either ? 
It seems as though we are no closer to an answer. 



BROWNS said:


> .At first glance at that animal I personally wouldn't have said it's a jungle carpet python but that's just me!!


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## JasonL (Aug 3, 2009)

Well Boa, you know there's no real answer to this question as the genus is so highly variable, even amongst the "sub species". Splitters keep trying to split things down till it becomes absolutely rediculous, and the lumpers are just happy with the basic reasoning of if it happily breeds together, looks physically the same, then how different can it really be? seemingly early DNA reports backs the latter, but it may just be how that DNA is interpreted? Keep pushing the question and you will just go around in circles with people personal veiws, and at the end of the day, does the snake really care what it is? or what it's offspring look like?


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## BROWNS (Aug 3, 2009)

Does that animal have a nice blue mouth?

I get local carpets around here with perfect skull n crossbones head patterns however they aren't jungles,I'll try dig up a pic of an ugly I caught once with the jungle type head pattern however everything else about this animal was not jungle like and more coastal like which is what it was.


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## pythons73 (Aug 3, 2009)

Most importantly boa,what do you class this snake in question as.By looking at it,imo it has more characteristics as a McDowelli in saying that NOT ALL jungles are yellow-black etc,or have cross-bones etc on their head.Ive seen a few Atherton Jungles that look simarlar to the one question....


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## Retic (Aug 3, 2009)

Well interestingly enough yes it does, I tried to get a photo of it but he wasn't very cooperative. I'll try again. Now doesn't that add further to the confusion ? 



BROWNS said:


> Does that animal have a nice blue mouth?
> 
> I get local carpets around here with perfect skull n crossbones head patterns however they aren't jungles,I'll try dig up a pic of an ugly I caught once with the jungle type head pattern however everything else about this animal was not jungle like and more coastal like which is what it was.


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## Australis (Aug 3, 2009)

The blue mouth is probably even less definitive than the "skull & cross bones".


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## Retic (Aug 3, 2009)

So we are back to the original question, what makes a Jungle a Jungle ?


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## Lewy (Aug 3, 2009)

In my opinion this is what a jungle should look like


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## Australis (Aug 3, 2009)

boa said:


> So we are back to the original question, what makes a Jungle a Jungle ?



Wells & Wellington paper from the 80's.


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## Retic (Aug 3, 2009)

Which says what exactly ?


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## Saz (Aug 3, 2009)

This girl is a pure Tully jungle, but her colouration is far from the standard black and gold jungle that you see everywhere. She's fully grown and only 4 foot and was bred by Roger Lester, so before people start yelling 'ITS A COASTAL', she isn't LOL!


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## derekm (Aug 3, 2009)

boa said:


> Which says what exactly ?



There is a brief extract of Wells' & Wellington's paper describing Morelia cheynei at morelia cheynei description.


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## byron_moses (Aug 3, 2009)

Saz said:


> This girl is a pure Tully jungle, but her colouration is far from the standard black and gold jungle that you see everywhere. She's fully grown and only 4 foot and was bred by Roger Lester, so before people start yelling 'ITS A COASTAL', she isn't LOL!


 beautiful snake mate great colourations on it


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## Colin (Aug 4, 2009)

ash, that animal you put up in your first post looks (to me) like an unusual coloured shane black line or maybe a SB line crossed with a cape york carpet?

why I say this is that r pattern on its head which I've seen before in Shanes line. 
probably wrong on this but Im curious to its origins


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## Retic (Aug 4, 2009)

Colin, I honestly couldn't say whether it is a Shane Black animal or not to be fair, the person I got it from didn't get it from SB. That animal isn't the focus of this thread really, I'm looking for opinions as to what people look at when deciding if a particular snake is a mcdowelli or cheynei. So far it seems there are no hard and fast visual markers that absolutely guarantee a snake is one or the other.


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## Kris (Aug 4, 2009)

Australis said:


> Wells & Wellington paper from the 80's.



I don't know about that Australis, surely the opinions of the instant experts from around here would mean more than that.


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## mungus (Aug 4, 2009)

Saz said:


> This girl is a pure Tully jungle, but her colouration is far from the standard black and gold jungle that you see everywhere. She's fully grown and only 4 foot and was bred by Roger Lester, so before people start yelling 'ITS A COASTAL', she isn't LOL!


 Imagine puting a albino darwin male over her.............................:lol:


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## Lewy (Aug 4, 2009)

This is a good looking Jungle IMO and has the attitude too As she is a nasty little girl she be around 3 years old


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## Retic (Aug 4, 2009)

Although it is nice to see peoples jungles it isn't really answering the question, no-one seems very keen to commit to actually answering, what makes a Jungle a Jungle ? Come on guys, I know you are watching


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## Ewan (Aug 4, 2009)

Boa. I think you already have the answer to the question and proved the point that there is very little difference between some Cheynei and Mcdowelli. Until we have DNA data to compare with I guess we will have to go about identifying these species/sub species the old fashioned way. By locality, body size, colour, pattern and scale counts. It seems it is very difficult in the instances of coastal Cheynei and Mcdowelli due to the huge variation the I believe exists across the range.

What are your thoughts on the subject?


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## jahan (Aug 4, 2009)

I hope some one can answer your question boa as i dont know,could the cape york be a natrual intergrade as the port mac or wauchope (diamondxcoastal) , (junglexcoastal)in the cape york region?


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## viridis (Aug 4, 2009)

You asked for it Ash 

Regardless of what the Morelia complex becomes after taxonomists are finished toying with the genus, I believe that an animal should be able to be visually I.D'd in most cases. Obviously you will find the odd animal that is unusual to an area.

I have encounted wild animals from Northern NSW, through the Southern Brigalow, through N.T to Cape York. Out of literally hundreds of Carpets, there have not been too many that do not fall into one of the current sub species.

One area that does cause some confusion lies in animals from the Tablelands region. I always hear people stating that you do NOT get ‘True Jungles’ from Atherton. I believe that you actually get three differing forms of Morelia at Atherton. I am talking about Atherton area itself, not the Atherton Tablelands. 

One form (#1), resembles your typical N.Q dry country Carpet that you find around Innot Hot Springs, Koah, Mareeba, Mt Carbine, Lakeland and Laura and Coen. This form in colouration, size and temperament typically resembles the Carpets that you can find throughout S.E Queensland with an average size of 8 feet. These animals show a lot of variation and can consist of grey, cream, tan, brown and dull orange colouration. Patterning can be either semi broken stripes, blotches and bands. These forms are present in the dryer areas of Atherton though are not overly common within 10 kms of the Atherton CBD.
An example of this form,











The second form (#2) resembles your typical smaller Palmerston type Jungle that is found throughout Deeral, Garradunga, East Palmerston, Mila Mila, Nerada Tea Plantation and South Johnson. This form reaches approx 4.5 - 5 feet in length and is of Black and Yellow colouration with heavy melanin forming throughout the yellow after approx 2.5 feet in length. I have only found 3 areas within 10 kms of the Atherton Township where this form is present. They are found in Rainforest near permanent streams and springs. This is a friends property where I have only encounted the Small Black and Yellow (Palmerston type) Carpets that I will always call 'True Atherton Jungles'

Atherton Rainforest Carpets habitat




Typical example of an animal from these areas











The third form (#3) is one that I find most unusual. Although not usually as striking in terms of their Yellow colourations, this form can reach a max of 10 feet in length and show the strong skull and crossbones head patterns that are typical of the smaller Palmerston type animals. These animals can be found in areas between the two other area forms of Atherton Carpets. Mature specimens are most common between 7-9 feet and usually consist of light Yellow, Tan and Black colouration. Patterning usually (not always) consists of stripes and blotches. 
Form#3






This info is from an area less than 20 kms square around the Township of Atherton. Animals that live within the 3 main habitats encountered around Atherton will fall into one of these groups depending on what habitat they are from e.g., 
Rainforest, Dry Sclerophyll / Eucalypt Forrest and Melaleuca swamp areas bordering Sclerophyll and Eucalypt.


I have found animals from the Lakefield N.P drainage that resemble unusual looking North Western Carpets. (This photo was taken by Rex)





I have also found animals from St Ronan’s station (40 Mile Scrub) and a station NW of Cooktown that resemble Cape Tribulation animals






Depending on how picky one wanted to be, you could pull apart every 'individual' colour form of Carpet from Tully to Ravenshoe to Bloomfield River and end up with 20 different area type locales.

This is my opinion only from spending every weekend possible in the areas mentioned. I believe that Far North Queensland Carpets are the most complex genus of any Morelia in Australia in terms of differing 'Area type locales'.
Even if DNA proves that all of QLD's Carpet's are the same, I will still call a Jungle a Jungle a SE QLD Coastal a SE QLD Coastal. For the few 'forms' of Carpet that I believe do not fall into a already existing sub species of Carpet (e.g. Some animals from Cape York) I will continue to call them area form locales such a ‘Cape York Carpet from Coen’, or a ‘Dry Country Atherton Carpet’. 
Experts flame away 
Cheers,
Nick


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## dames1978 (Aug 4, 2009)

nice post viridis


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## Retic (Aug 4, 2009)

Thank you Nick, that was very comprehensive and informative. What that does show me at least is that there doesn't appear to a definitive set of markers that sets a Jungle apart from a 'carpet' in all cases. Obviously a Palmerston Jungle is very clearly a cheynei, a carpet from Brisbane is clearly a mcdowelli but I think we all agree it can get very muddy indeed.
This thread wasn't so much about what may or may not happen in relation to the ongoing DNA research, it was more to do with getting a definition for a Jungle that would negate all the arguments we see here and elsewhere when we see the inevitable 'what snake is this ?' thread.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Aug 4, 2009)

Top read Nicky, great topic Ash.


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## Retic (Aug 4, 2009)

It just seems to be one of those subjects that never appears to be debated properly and as I have said you only have to do a search for "Please ID my new snake' or similar threads to realise how much confusion there seems to be.


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## viridis (Aug 4, 2009)

Hey Den,

Long time no see mate When are you coming up for a visit my friend

Nick


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## Den from Den Pythons (Aug 4, 2009)

Hopefully soon mate, it's been too long between visits! Your down for B's wed yeah? 

I think there will always be debates on this topic Ash. I don't have too much of an opinion on the subject because Jungles and north coast Morelia aren't my forte. Kind of like spelling through msn chats...


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## townsvillepython (Aug 4, 2009)

im gonna say .................. coastal my coastie looks kinda similar


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## candycaine (Aug 5, 2009)

boa said:


> Thanks Scott, as far as I know that snake is a Cape York, I can't be 100% as I didn't catch it or it's offspring  It's not so much about that particular snake as I consider it cheynei but I am interested to hear other peoples views on what makes a top end carpet a mcdowelli or a cheynei. .
> Don't worry it's not only the smart ones who get into the genetics debates


 
Hi ash,

first glance at the picture and I thought your guy was my guy lol, it's most def a Cape York and my guy/s which I only keep Cape york's and one BHP, but neways I believe there are coastals and jungles in these guys as I have both and by saying this temprament varries really such as my cape york coastals are absolutly agressive but I have found the young to be quite placid. the cape york coastals are much much larger like most coastal's are compared to the jungles, my cape york coastals grow at a faster rate to my cape york jungles and the jungles are indead much smaller and a hell of alot crankier such as a normal jungle is gressive. I've reasently perchased a pair of cape york jungles much the same as your's. my male is 2 years of age and the owner didn't know exactly if he was coastal or jungle. but when I purchased my female from Snake power on here he had a few of my males siblings in his stock and firmly believes this line is indead jungle. from size, shape, pattern and colour, including temprement, this is also my thought on why I think they are indead a cape york jungle and not a coastal like my older pair. 

The cape york jungles are known to only reach the length of around 4-6 foot and are a skinnier animal, I find the pattern's and colouring are much brighter and the cream stands out more the patterns between the white/cream varries from 2 tones different colours and shade from black/grey to red/black and many more, the head shapes are skinnier to the coastal side which I find the coastals are infact alot fatter head shape and they grow to 9 foot long and very heavy body weight, there patterns and colouring are more dull compared to the jungle as well.

so yes I do believe out of the 6 years of keeping Cape yorks and resently purchacing a pair of extremely stunning cape york jungles that there is indead a difference between the two and that there is indead coastals and jungles in these amazing animals.

cheers some pic's of my guy for you ash, he's probably from the same clutch as yours. 

I might just show the difference's between the two by size and head patterns and colour if you don't mind.

cheers Jody

Cape York Jungle - Kronos 2 years old and 4 foot
View attachment 98413


View attachment 98414


View attachment 98415


Cape York coastal - Medusa 5 years and 9 foot long she was 8 foot at 3years of age. her head patterns are not complete and the shape is massive, her body patterns as you can see are alot more duller then of Kronos.
View attachment 98416

Medusa is not pin head here she is infact carrying eggs. 
View attachment 98417


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