# Rat Husbandry questions.



## -Katana- (Apr 23, 2011)

I've had a doe give birth to her first litter and I kept the buck in with her because I read that the doe's come straight back into season.

How likely is it that she'd fall pregnant again straight away?

She's very protective of her pups and has bitten me twice and has bitten the buck ..he has bleeding ears.
I don't see this as a bad thing as I see this as a sign of a strong mothering instinct.

Any advice or tips welcomed.

Thanks,
~Akwendi.


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## garthy (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm no expert either, personally I remove the male prior to the female giving birth. But I have a few females for him to service. After a few days I then take her out and put her in with the male for a couple of hours, and repeat this process over a period of about a week.The mother rats always get bitey when they have young. Although many will say it doesn't happen, I have always worried that the male may kill the pups


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## -Katana- (Apr 23, 2011)

Thanks Garthy.
I've watched this buck and he tries to curl up in the nest on top of the litter.
I don't know if he's trying to help keep the litter warm or if he's trying to get warm but he isn't a little boy.
Hope he doesn't squash the pups.

Might have to do what you do and take "porky" out.


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## Bez84 (Apr 23, 2011)

I keep the male in with 2 or 3 females, never separate them and i dont have any problems.
Apparently they can fall pregnant as soon as they drop there litter.
If you have more then one female in a cage then you do not want the age of the litters to far apart.
Eg if one litter is furred and crawling around and another is pinkys then they usually get mixed around and the younger ones starve to death etc due to not being able to compete with the older babies...my experiences anyway.


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## -Katana- (Apr 23, 2011)

That makes a lot of sense.

Thanks, Bez.


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## grizz (Apr 23, 2011)

i have 2 females with each male, leave them in there all the time and if i get a bitey female or male they become snake crap!


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## TigerCoastal (Apr 23, 2011)

i do the same thing as bez without a problem, occasionally i have litters at different stages in each tub, but i find the opposite to bez that the younger ones starve, mine still get all the food they need, i find that the mothers intentionally mix the litters to have them at different stages as they take different amounts of work for the mother to care for the babies.

As for the biting mother, i wouldnt breed from her again, none of my females bite, pregnant or with babies i can pick them up or handle the babies without fear of biting. Quite often i remove the pinks from the mothers nipples when i am doing my counts or a pinky run.


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## Bez84 (Apr 23, 2011)

None of my rats bite when they have babies i think its been bred out long long ago.
When i first started any that where biters, killers or tub destroyers became snake food.
Now i have rats that are tame without the need to handle them...


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## -Katana- (Apr 23, 2011)

Thank you for the replies and the advice. I really appreciate it.

At the moment I only have two females who have had litters so I guess when the others start producing young I can afford to be fussier about temperament.

I guess it boils down to priorities.
For me it's a female that can get pregnant, birth and raise a litter to weaning and get pregnant again.
So essentially pulling her weight and justifying her existence by converting all this food I'm pouring down her neck into bubs.

I find it hard to think harshly about a female with a strong protective instinct of her new borns.

But that's just my opinion.



garthy said:


> I'm no expert either, personally I remove the male prior to the female giving birth. But I have a few females for him to service. After a few days I then take her out and put her in with the male for a couple of hours, and repeat this process over a period of about a week.The mother rats always get bitey when they have young. Although many will say it doesn't happen, I have always worried that the male may kill the pups


 
So how many weeks between one litter and the next, Garthy?


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## saximus (Apr 23, 2011)

The males shouldn't kill the pups if they are the father. They generally only kill them if they aren't his babies. I've had a mother have an "immaculate conception" before. I removed the male the day after the babies were born then she had another litter about three or four weeks later. So that would indicate he hopped straight back on the horse (so to speak) after they were born


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## -Katana- (Apr 23, 2011)

saximus said:


> The males shouldn't kill the pups if they are the father. They generally only kill them if they aren't his babies. I've had a mother have an "immaculate conception" before. I removed the male the day after the babies were born then she had another litter about three or four weeks later. So that would indicate he hopped straight back on the horse (so to speak) after they were born


 
That was a good surprise!
Did you keep him in with the doe after that next litter?


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## saximus (Apr 23, 2011)

Yeah I'm trying two tubs with 4:1 ratios at the moment. I've been told as long as there is enough room it's fine to leave them in. They are still young though so they are only just preggers with their first litters at the moment. I'll let you know how successful it is


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## Rattler (Apr 23, 2011)

YouTube - Weaner Rats - part 3


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## saximus (Apr 23, 2011)

Wow that dude is efficient. Not sure I'd be happy to have them in such small tubs though


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## mrs_davo (Apr 23, 2011)

I have been told that females can store their eggs and that is why they can have litters so close together without any males around...
I have actually had this happen with a couple of my females - I had 8 females and only 4 males to service them - so I frequently moved them around. After 1 of my girls got pregnant, I moved the male out and a few weeks after she had her litter, she dropped another litter....


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## -Katana- (Apr 23, 2011)

hibern8 said:


> YouTube - Weaner Rats - part 3



WOW!

Thank you for posting that, Hibern.


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## wokka (Apr 23, 2011)

saximus said:


> The males shouldn't kill the pups if they are the father. They generally only kill them if they aren't his babies. I've had a mother have an "immaculate conception" before. I removed the male the day after the babies were born then she had another litter about three or four weeks later. So that would indicate he hopped straight back on the horse (so to speak) after they were born


 
I doubt that a male has anyway of knowing the heretige of the babies. This is just a popular wives tale.


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## Rattler (Apr 23, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> WOW!
> 
> Thank you for posting that, Hibern.


Welcome..



mrs_davo said:


> I have been told that females can store their eggs and that is why they can have litters so close together without any males around...
> I have actually had this happen with a couple of my females - I had 8 females and only 4 males to service them - so I frequently moved them around. After 1 of my girls got pregnant, I moved the male out and a few weeks after she had her litter, she dropped another litter....


ohh cmon, ur having us on right?


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Apr 23, 2011)

Breeding Guide: Mating

apparently it has been suggested that female rats can store sperm, but has not been lab proven...


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## Rattler (Apr 23, 2011)

newtolovingsnake said:


> Breeding Guide: Mating
> 
> apparently it has been suggested that female rats can store sperm, but has not been lab proven...


store sperm for hours or days not for 3 weeks until she has a litter.


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## guzzo (Apr 24, 2011)

Beware the female rat....I had a terrible experiance....I still have the occasional bad dream and wake up shaking......


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## solar 17 (Apr 24, 2011)

Females [rats] will cycle [come into season] as soon as they have a clutch/litter and every 96-100 hours after that, so they cycle almost twice a week as far as this bitey business some of my best producing females will take your fingers off if given a chance.... but l believe there is a huge difference between fear and respect ....solar 17 [Baden]


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## jamesmoho (Apr 24, 2011)

rats/mice will ovulate for around 24 hours after they drop a litter, and since the gestation period and weaning age are the same, it is possible to have the female impregnated as soon as she gives birth and then again (give or take) as soon as the pups are ready to be weaned. the only problems ive had with cannibalism are with manx mice (tailless)


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## her_xr6t (Apr 24, 2011)

Hey,.. i kept all my doe's in together with all their pups, 3 litters in total and what a fantastic little family they were,.. they all raised the pups like a shared agreement. quite often there would be 2 mum's in with the pups and one sleeping away from them. it was like they would take turns to give each other a rest. also bucks make excellent fathers. i tend to give my girls a break in between litters like 2 months before they get pregnant again. keeps them in good condition.


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## -Katana- (May 15, 2011)

I have a couple of young grow on bucks that I would like to use as future sires.
They are the fastest growers in their litters and they haven't had runny noses and watery eyes.
Now I know all the rat breeding sites say that a 5 week old buck _can_ sire young but I was wondering what the sites rat breeders are finding in actual practice?


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## Indysmum (May 23, 2011)

Rattler said:


> Welcome..
> 
> 
> ohh cmon, ur having us on right?


 
It would be more likely that mother has become pregnant to her male baby. It was happening to many people who didnt seperate sexes/mums and bubs until 5-6wks, have heard of it happen as early as 3wks.
I personally wouldnt advise leaving the daddy in same tub, or having litters back to back. I could go on about the concerns for the poor animal, but since this is reptile forum..ill argue from this angle-you will have a decline in litter size,total reabsobtion of litters or risk the mother start culling her young. Its way too taxing on the female, give her some rest time. Better for the litter production in the bigger picture imo.
Happy healthy rats= happy healthy snakes 
*as for the storing of sperm, perhaps you are thinking of the plug that holds in sperm? This is immediatly after mating, not for any lengthy period.


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## TigerCoastal (May 23, 2011)

Indysmum said:


> you will have a decline in litter size,total reabsobtion of litters or risk the mother start culling her young. Its way too taxing on the female, give her some rest time. Better for the litter production in the bigger picture imo.


 How much feeder experience have you got? i have been breeding the same rats back to back for 6 months with no decline in health, numbers, or anything like that. After the 6 month mark the numbers go down slightly, but i feel that it is linked to a lesser number of eggs in the ovary than what was there before, similar to a woman approaching menopause or that there are less mature eggs there that are ready for use. Even after a few months break i have found that the numbers do not increase, if they do its by 1-2 at most. All of my animals have been line bred, females are culled and replaced at around the 6 month mark, males depending on size. There is more to it than how many time a rat has been bred as to how many numbers you get. Food, ambient conditions, caging conditions, water quality all have an effect as well.


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## -Katana- (May 23, 2011)

Something a little bit upsetting....

I had a first litter doe give birth to 1 small live pup and then she encounter issues passing the next pup...several hours of straining and she manages to birth the rest of the litter but they were still born.

As I said earlier she is a first litter doe and she was on a rising plane of nutrition to help condition her for lactation.

Is this something that happens regularly with first litter does?
Is it worth reconditioning and breeding her again?

I fostered the small but healthy pup with a different doe who gave birth at the same time and it has fed and been accepted.


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## kevinsrodents (May 24, 2011)

*Rats*



Akwendi said:


> I've had a doe give birth to her first litter and I kept the buck in with her because I read that the doe's come straight back into season.
> 
> How likely is it that she'd fall pregnant again straight away?
> 
> ...


Hi, I keep 8 Does & 2 Bucks in a cage for breedind and the Bucks never come out of there, She should give you new pups every 35 Days. hope this has been of help to you. Regards Kevin
[email protected]


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## beeman (May 24, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Something a little bit upsetting....
> 
> I had a first litter doe give birth to 1 small live pup and then she encounter issues passing the next pup...several hours of straining and she manages to birth the rest of the litter but they were still born.
> 
> ...



Once that has happened here she is culled, There is no room for rodents that
produce dead or small litters, It costs to much in labor, feed etc to hold non productive rodents!


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## saximus (May 24, 2011)

Haha take the hard line Beeman . So all of your produce biggish litters even on their first?


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## beeman (May 24, 2011)

saximus said:


> Haha take the hard line Beeman . So all of your produce biggish litters even on their first?



Our line does produce good sized litters for their first !The smallest litters are usually 12-13 with the occasional first of 17-19!
We have worked for years getting our line so it returns a high production rate
so there is no need to carry underproductive rodents


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## -Katana- (Jun 8, 2011)

Just a question about marking litters.

I have a few litters due for weaning and with space being a bit tight I'm going to have to mix litters in my grow out tubs.
There are females pups from one very large litter that I want to keep as future breeding stock.
I was wondering if anyone has ever tried marking rats by dipping their tails in undiluted food dye?

If so,

How long will the dye last and will the dyed rats be attacked by their tub mates (for being "different") and will there be any residue left in the rats that will be harmful to my pythons when it comes time to cull them for age?


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## saximus (Jun 8, 2011)

I was actually thinking about something similar lately. I was just going to put a dot on them with a permanent marker. I figured one little dot couldn't be bad for the snakes. They are "non-toxic" after all


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## Fuscus (Jun 8, 2011)

I have grow out tubs and normally remove any preggers but was away for a couple of weeks. Now I have a large ball of youngsters in one tub. Looks about thirty or forty a couple of weeks apart and all seen to be doing well, despite the other rats still in the tub. And the rats are all non biters


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## RamsMice (Jun 8, 2011)

Yer a soon as they drop there litter the males go in for round two lol mine anyway and as the time I realize because mine give birth early hours the males are already at it again so there no point separating them for mine I just leave them in there. But in some case I separate them


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## -Katana- (Jun 9, 2011)

saximus said:


> I was actually thinking about something similar lately. I was just going to put a dot on them with a permanent marker. I figured one little dot couldn't be bad for the snakes. They are "non-toxic" after all



Hahahah!
Just imagine rats with purple, blue, pink or yellow tails!
_Rainbow Rats - Because the purdy ones taste better!
_


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 9, 2011)

Rather than saving the whole litter for future breeders I generally select the young ratties that do better than their litter mates, eg. bigger body size and brighter personality and cleaner shinier coats. = thriving youngsters make better breeders in the long run
Hope this helps
Cheers
Sandee


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## -Katana- (Jun 9, 2011)

I will cull any youngsters (and adults for that matter) who come down with the snuffles and, any who don't I keep for future breeders. I hope that selecting this way will give me a line rats that have a stronger immune system.


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## ingie (Jun 9, 2011)

When I select for future breeders I do the same as Bredlislave and Akwendi. I monitor the litter and pick them off one by one as they show any signs of being smaller, skinnier or sickly, until I am left with the healthiest strongest babies. It is a good idea to regularly monitor the health of potential breeders, by holding their back up to your ear and listening for any noises other than a heartbeat. If they have a little wheeze, sneeze or a rattle don't bother keeping them for breeding as these symptoms will quickly increase as they age, and effect their productivity. 

Once I tried marking albino rats with permanent marker and it was gone within a few hours! Very annoying lol. I have heard food dye lasts longer and I am going to give it a go on my black eyed white rats so I don't get them mixed up!


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## saximus (Jun 9, 2011)

Since there's a couple of seemingly experienced people in here I just wanted to ask have any of you found bite marks on your babies? I noticed three of my weaners have quite a deep gash on the back of their necks. It looks too big/deep to be from the other babies so I'm guessing it's from one of the other adults (I don't separate my females as I was told it helps to keep them warm if you keep all the mothers together). Do you think this would be more likely from the male or just one of the females being a bitch? I might try removing the male when my next litter is born and see if it helps but in the meantime I figured I'd see if you guys had seen it before.


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## beeman (Jun 9, 2011)

saximus said:


> Since there's a couple of seemingly experienced people in here I just wanted to ask have any of you found bite marks on your babies? I noticed three of my weaners have quite a deep gash on the back of their necks. It looks too big/deep to be from the other babies so I'm guessing it's from one of the other adults (I don't separate my females as I was told it helps to keep them warm if you keep all the mothers together). Do you think this would be more likely from the male or just one of the females being a bitch? I might try removing the male when my next litter is born and see if it helps but in the meantime I figured I'd see if you guys had seen it before.


You will see this sort of thing from time to time, Its usually the females fighting over the pups and as they are shifting pups they each will grab a little to hard.


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 9, 2011)

Rats are excellent mothers, in fact extreme in some cases. 

Watch for the dominant mummas they take ALL the babies the other mums milk dries up and the dominant mumma cannot feed all the babies successfully.

You end up with a heap of scrawny rat pups.


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## ingie (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah I would say that they were doing tug-o-war with the babies because if they were wanting to intentionally hurt them they would prob just eat them or parts of them instead of biting.


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## saximus (Jun 9, 2011)

ingie said:


> ...if they were wanting to intentionally hurt them they would prob just eat them or parts of them instead of biting.


 Yeah that's what confused me. I've had babies "disappear" shortly after being born before (that mother is now resting peacefully in the freezer) but never seen this. Thanks for the info guys and girls


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## jham66 (Jun 9, 2011)

I'm having pretty average breeding results at the moment. Usually only get 6 kittens from each mother, one mother (not sure which) only had 3. The reason I don't know which it was is that two gave birth within two days, both the same colour parents, and then they proceeded to do exactly as was suggested above. They fought over the kittens, to and fro-ing them to the point where the kittens were all scratched up. I euthenized the litter and will have to watch more carefully next time.


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## ingie (Jun 11, 2011)

That sucks jham66. If you are having consistently small litters it could be a diet thing. Some babies can be reabsorbed during pregnancy for various reasons. When I changed the diet of my rats, they started producing bigger litters with faster growing healthier babies. There are a lot of different diets that give the same result, but I feed Biomare pellets (horse food), dog biscuits (for meat based protein), and bird seed. They also get a lot of food scraps and fresh fruit and veggies from the markets. While I admit that I love my rats as much as my reptiles so I spoil them, the results are worth it. Food works out less than $1/kg and I would have to spend soooo much more buying frozen rodents


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## jham66 (Jun 11, 2011)

I am feeding Laucke mills rat and mouse pellets, occasionally I mix in some dry dog food and they get veggies with their dinner at least once a week (most times twice and sometimes more). They all look heathy, except I seem to get the odd male that gets resp. problems, he still does his job but wheezes a bit at times. I've just gotten two litters of six again.... but it is actually enough to cover my needs. It would be nice to down size and still produce the same though.


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## beeman (Jun 11, 2011)

jham66 said:


> I am feeding Laucke mills rat and mouse pellets, occasionally I mix in some dry dog food and they get veggies with their dinner at least once a week (most times twice and sometimes more). They all look heathy, except I seem to get the odd male that gets resp. problems, he still does his job but wheezes a bit at times. I've just gotten two litters of six again.... but it is actually enough to cover my needs. It would be nice to down size and still produce the same though.



Mate if your rats were down here in our production unit they would have been
culled LONG ago.
The feed you are using is a complete ration as far as rodent production goes so its not a feed issue it more a strain/bloodline issue!


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 11, 2011)

Could be old rats too....I would replace Mr.Wheezer immediatley with a younger more virile model. How old are the girls ?

You really don't need respiratory problems in your rat colony


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## garthy (Jun 11, 2011)

jham66 said:


> I'm having pretty average breeding results at the moment. Usually only get 6 kittens from each mother, one mother (not sure which) only had 3. The reason I don't know which it was is that two gave birth within two days, both the same colour parents, and then they proceeded to do exactly as was suggested above. They fought over the kittens, to and fro-ing them to the point where the kittens were all scratched up. I euthenized the litter and will have to watch more carefully next time.


Mine are going the other way, I'm feeding working horse mix and cracked corn, with kitchen scraps (veges etc) each day. I have just had one mum raise 17 babies and 3 others raise 16. I have also just had two more litters of 16 born and one of 13. I have a pregnant female that looks so big I have no idea how many she will have. I separate my females in individual cells when they look close to birthing. It has proven to be very successful. I already have 1 small freezer full of snake food and am starting to fill a larger chest freezer.


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## jham66 (Jun 11, 2011)

They are all young models. I culled off my old male 2 months ago. The whole lot are only just 5 months old now. I think I will have to watch Sandee's post's and see if I can get a couple of females off her ;-) I will get rid off Mr Wheezer still. He is just a bit precious, on day three of the new substrate (breeder's choice) his nose starts running....


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## -Katana- (Jun 11, 2011)

jham66 said:


> They are all young models. I culled off my old male 2 months ago. The whole lot are only just 5 months old now. I think I will have to watch Sandee's post's and see if I can get a couple of females off her ;-) I will get rid off Mr Wheezer still. He is just a bit precious, on day three of the new substrate (breeder's choice) his nose starts running....


 

Dunno about that..I'm thinkin' I might have to sweet talk some females off Garthy!:lol:


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## garthy (Jun 11, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Dunno about that..I'm thinkin' I might have to sweet talk some females off Garthy!:lol:


 
start talking


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## ingie (Jun 11, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Dunno about that..I'm thinkin' I might have to sweet talk some females off Garthy!:lol:


 
Yeah me too!!!! 

Cracked corn - Do they actually eat that? I heard corn is fantastic for keeping rats nice and plump through the birthing/raising process but I always assumed the hard stuff wasn't particularly edible unless you are a bird..... I would love to be able to do cracked though for when I can't afford fresh


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## -Katana- (Jun 11, 2011)

ingie said:


> Yeah me too!!!!
> 
> Cracked corn - Do they actually eat that? I heard corn is fantastic for keeping rats nice and plump through the birthing/raising process but I always assumed the hard stuff wasn't particularly edible unless you are a bird..... I would love to be able to do cracked though for when I can't afford fresh


 

Ingie, I feed mine frozen kernels..in a lot of ways frozen has a higher nutritional value because it's snap frozen while it's fresh and hasn't been sitting around on a supermarket shelf for an age.
Mine love their frozen corn and peas.


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## garthy (Jun 11, 2011)

So does anyone know if you can gas rats with bi-carb and vinegar? I've made a pathetic attempt at a gassing chamber and ended up with vinegary rats.


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## -Katana- (Jun 11, 2011)

Sorry I can't help..I soda stream mine....mmm....fizzy!:lol:


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## garthy (Jun 11, 2011)

ingie said:


> Yeah me too!!!!
> 
> Cracked corn - Do they actually eat that? I heard corn is fantastic for keeping rats nice and plump through the birthing/raising process but I always assumed the hard stuff wasn't particularly edible unless you are a bird..... I would love to be able to do cracked though for when I can't afford fresh



I actually think it helps with their teeth too. I find they will often pick the corn out 1st.


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## saximus (Jun 11, 2011)

garthy said:


> So does anyone know if you can gas rats with bi-carb and vinegar? I've made a pathetic attempt at a gassing chamber and ended up with vinegary rats.


 Yeah you can. I used to do it before I got my soda stream. I don't have time to go into details right now but I can later if you want. Basically I used a separate bag with the bicarb and vinegar and had a hose running into the container with the rats. That way only the gas goes through to them and you don't end up getting the liquid all over them. However, it's pretty messy and you actually need a fair bit of vinegar to do any more than a couple of rats. So I'd suggest just saving up and getting a soda stream...


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