# help needed with first enclosure



## mikey_mike (Nov 29, 2011)

Hello all,

Its time to build my first enclosure for my Darwin carpet python. Id much rather buy a ready made one but Im in Alice Springs & delivery would be prohibitive.

I was planning to build a 1.2 (h) x 1.2 (w) x 0.6 (d) enclosure, but I may have to scale it down as my quote for glass was pricey. I was going to use plywood. What thickness should I use?

The entire front was going to be glass. How thick should the glass be?
Any tips on runners for the glass would also be appreciated.
It might be cheaper if the top 20cm of the enclosure & perhaps the bottom 10 were ply. Can the runners be mounted directly on ply?

I'm a wee bit out of my depth here, but am keen to plan it properly. Im sure someone has published a step by step guide. Any directions, random comments or general lifestyle advice would also be appreciated.

Ta.


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## danielpoke (Nov 29, 2011)

*i make my own*

Hi mate.
I miake all my own enclosures. i use melamine which you can get from bunnings and they will usually cut to size. and it is 16mm
i use cawdrey glass runners which you can secure with liquid nails. you just need to let it set for a day or 2. the runners are 5mm so glass to fit is 4 mm.
I have used ply once and it worped but that was for a beardie enclosure so the amount of heat could have caused it. hope this help ya.
Cheers 
Daniel







mikey_mike said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Its time to build my first enclosure for my Darwin carpet python. Id much rather buy a ready made one but Im in Alice Springs & delivery would be prohibitive.
> 
> ...


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## J-A-X (Nov 29, 2011)

At a height of 1.2m and a width of 1.2m I wouldn't use anything other than laminated glass, to use anything less on something that size is asking for trouble. 
Normal glass That size will shatter into slivers very easily, posing a severe injury risk. Safety glass will break into 1000s of tiny pieces, while it poses no major injury risk you will have to find alternate housing for the occupant until you have the money to replace it, and like you say it's not cheap. 
Laminated glass will hold together if broken, but it will take a huge amount of force to break it, so it's safer all round. 
I also wouldn't trust liquid nails on a plastic track to hold glass of any great size, and I doubt that glass of the size you're thinking would run too smoothly unless the edges are beveled (again not cheap). 5mm track will take 5mm glass. 
Sorry to sound so negative but if you cut costs on your glass you are asking for trouble. If a tank is going at floor level then laminated glass is a must, especially if you have resident or visiting kids ( or the occasional drunk partyer) glass usually costs me 2/3rds of the cost of a tank.


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## mikey_mike (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks for the excellent advice. Laminated glass it is. If I have to scale it down to fit within my budget I'll be sad, but will cope.

I'm thinking that the entire front may not need to be window. I imagine it will open more easily and have better thermal property's if the glass size is reduced.

I'd still love to use plywood but will be guided by experience. Is plywood a crap idea?


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## J-A-X (Nov 29, 2011)

with the size you're planning on making you'd need fairly thick ply, so it doesnt bow/warp, which will make it super heavy. I'd do as daniel suggested and get the local hardware to cut to size, get some edging and get into assembly mode. 

get them to cut some pieces to go top and bottom across the front, the top will help disguise lighting, and the bottom will avoid 'stuff' getting into the tracks. plus it will reduce the size of the glass and add a bit of support against sagging on the top.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Dec 3, 2011)

Jaxrtfm said:


> At a height of 1.2m and a width of 1.2m I wouldn't use anything other than laminated glass, to use anything less on something that size is asking for trouble.
> Normal glass That size will shatter into slivers very easily, posing a severe injury risk. Safety glass will break into 1000s of tiny pieces, while it poses no major injury risk you will have to find alternate housing for the occupant until you have the money to replace it, and like you say it's not cheap.
> Laminated glass will hold together if broken, but it will take a huge amount of force to break it, so it's safer all round.
> I also wouldn't trust liquid nails on a plastic track to hold glass of any great size, and I doubt that glass of the size you're thinking would run too smoothly unless the edges are beveled (again not cheap). 5mm track will take 5mm glass.
> Sorry to sound so negative but if you cut costs on your glass you are asking for trouble. If a tank is going at floor level then laminated glass is a must, especially if you have resident or visiting kids ( or the occasional drunk partyer) glass usually costs me 2/3rds of the cost of a tank.




sorry to correct you Jax but it seems like you were implying that safety glass is stronger than normal or toughened glass when in fact it is not. 
Safety glass is just two normal sheets of float (normal) glass with a clear (almost like contact) plastic lining between them, so if broken the glass stays in place but it will brake about as easily as standard glass of the same thickness. Comes in a range of thicknesses usually starting at 6.38mm


Toughened glass is float glass that is cut and drilled to shape then heat treated to make it about 5 times stronger than normal glass, this is the strongest of the three and will break into small squares for safety.

We always use toughened now but have used laminated in the past. We have made enclosures with very large panels ie 1.2m x 1.9m in both types but the one that was laminated ended up breaking when the enclosure was laid on its side and started putting pressure on it. So to sum up I would recommend the toughened to be the best overall but either way the most important is the mounting. At that size you could have them sliding but it's not the best because of the weight. Mounting them in a timber frame is not so good either because the frame would have to be very strong and rigid and will always want to sag under the weight of the glass. Mounting it fixed in place is ok but is crappy for access. Mounting it frameless is the best but it has to be toughened and uses expensive hinges. If mounting in a frame or fixed only use silicone as anything else hardens too much and may cause it to shatter when moved.

Sorry for the rant


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## J-A-X (Dec 4, 2011)

Don't ever apologise for correcting me.. Always happy to be told I've got it wrong, I'm actually wondering if I've got it back to front or if different states call it by different names, which wouldn't surprise me. I'll check with the brother in law, he's my glass man  in the meantime I'm happy to accept your definition.
At least we both agree that float glass is not the way to go with large pieces


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## hissnbits (Dec 4, 2011)

5mm float is the minimum I would use, and as Ben has advised given the size of the enclosure it has many challenges. I have seen some with a support through the middle so that the height is halved and running two sections of glass. Is not as good visially, but is more practicle and means smaller glass size. The plastic track will do 5mm glass, however beyond this size it is best to get an appropriate system from Cowdroy. Some people like their MKII sashless system. Of course is more expensive than plastic track, but performs much better.

Generally from what I know of glass, there is a lot of cheap imported glass that is toughened overseas. Mostly this is 12mm thick and seen at places like Bunnings etc. It is made mainly for balustrading and pool fencing. To get smaller sizes of glass, and of course if it needs to be cut to size, drilled, etc then the toughening can only be done after the cuttings and drilling is done. This is usually done here in Australia and the cost of materials and processing is not on par (and sometimes quality) with imported glass. I have known some to think glassiers are ripping people for say 6mm glass when 12mm is the price that it is at some retailers. The toughening is the the last process done to the glass that involves heating each side until it basically starts to melt and then cooling it creating strong surface tension on each side of the glass. The surface tension is the "toughening" that is given to the glass. If you try and cut or drill this glass you will remove the toughening and upset the balance of tension between each side of the glass and it will basically explode. So you cant resize or modify already toughened glass. If you find some that is second hand one way to save cost is to design the enclosure around the glass. I am no expert with regards to glass, just know a very small amount. It is best to check with a suitably qualified person as to what sizes and type are best for your individual circumstances.

Ben, do you know if you can get toughed 5mm? And if so is it any good?


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## mikey_mike (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks guys,

I've had a discussion with the local glazier. They're recomending I use plastic rather than glass. There's a product called polycarb which is used for windows in all of the indigenous communities & town camps. It scratches easily but doesn't break. Its expensive - but so is toughened glass. It should be lighter. Its 4.5mm thick & should run easily in tracks.

I'd hate to get the stage of installing the glass & find major revisions are necessary. Any ideas?


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## kal777 (Dec 4, 2011)

only issue with polycarb is it flexes a lot, not good for running glass doors.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Dec 4, 2011)

mikey_mike said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> I've had a discussion with the local glazier. They're recomending I use plastic rather than glass. There's a product called polycarb which is used for windows in all of the indigenous communities & town camps. It scratches easily but doesn't break. Its expensive - but so is toughened glass. It should be lighter. Its 4.5mm thick & should run easily in tracks.
> 
> I'd hate to get the stage of installing the glass & find major revisions are necessary. Any ideas?


Don't go polycarbonate, as mentioned it scratches easily and flexes far too much.


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## mikey_mike (Dec 4, 2011)

Yay,
You've saved me from an expensive mistake. I'll hold out for some toughened glass. I think things might go more smoothly if I downsize.
Cheers


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Dec 4, 2011)

hissnbits said:


> 5mm float is the minimum I would use, and as Ben has advised given the size of the enclosure it has many challenges. I have seen some with a support through the middle so that the height is halved and running two sections of glass. Is not as good visially, but is more practicle and means smaller glass size. The plastic track will do 5mm glass, however beyond this size it is best to get an appropriate system from Cowdroy. Some people like their MKII sashless system. Of course is more expensive than plastic track, but performs much better.
> 
> Generally from what I know of glass, there is a lot of cheap imported glass that is toughened overseas. Mostly this is 12mm thick and seen at places like Bunnings etc. It is made mainly for balustrading and pool fencing. To get smaller sizes of glass, and of course if it needs to be cut to size, drilled, etc then the toughening can only be done after the cuttings and drilling is done. This is usually done here in Australia and the cost of materials and processing is not on par (and sometimes quality) with imported glass. I have known some to think glassiers are ripping people for say 6mm glass when 12mm is the price that it is at some retailers. The toughening is the the last process done to the glass that involves heating each side until it basically starts to melt and then cooling it creating strong surface tension on each side of the glass. The surface tension is the "toughening" that is given to the glass. If you try and cut or drill this glass you will remove the toughening and upset the balance of tension between each side of the glass and it will basically explode. So you cant resize or modify already toughened glass. If you find some that is second hand one way to save cost is to design the enclosure around the glass. I am no expert with regards to glass, just know a very small amount. It is best to check with a suitably qualified person as to what sizes and type are best for your individual circumstances.
> 
> Ben, do you know if you can get toughed 5mm? And if so is it any good?



I'm pretty sure you can get any thickness of glass toughened because it is just standard float to begin with, but you would need to check with a glazier.


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## J-A-X (Dec 7, 2011)

ok,.... i've had a chat with 'the man' and here's the outcome:

Float glass is the stock standard glass they put into windows (unless they're at floor level, then its either of the two options below)

safety/toughened glass: it depend on who you talk to as to what they call it, its the one that is heat hardened and if its hit or stressed will shatter into a million tiny rubble type pieces when it breaks. 

laminated glass is two pieces of float glass with a film in between them with adhesive to hold it all together.if its hit or stressed one or both pieces of glass can crack, but because of the film holding them together the area stays as one piece, and as Steins has already mentioned your starting thickness is 6.38mm.

our debate as to what is stronger than the other: 
given that both the safety and laminated glass have the potential to crack/shatter if undue pressure is applied in a 'weak' spot i'd say they are both as strong as the other. both can have weak spots during processing and a hit in the wrong place, or pressure in the wrong spot will result in breakage.

what is safer ? again, that is subjective. one gives tiny rubble like pieces and a windowless frame enabling snakey to escape. the other will crack but will remain in the frame unless you've hit it with a sledge hammer. a lot of commercial retail business use the laminated glass, because it will hold in the frame, and not allow intruders in. its not like a piece of glass on a piece of contact, the adhesive is strong and in a normal domestic environment the likelyhood of both pieces of glass breaking is slim, so snakey still has a nice smooth piece of glass on his side. 

another thing to consider is price. safety/toughened glass is NOT cheap. and if you have to replace it chances are you'd be wanting to do it quickly. which is unlikely to happen because as already stated in previoius posts, they cut it to size before heating it. and its not like they stick it in the nearest pizza oven. some places only run their heat treatments once a month when they have sufficient product to treat to warrant running the machine at a cost of several thousand dollars a day !!! 

like Ben (stein) has said. HOW you mount it is important, you must allow some sort of movement to avoid stress fractures and as he said, silicone is the ideal product for that. and yes, any thickness of glass can be toughened. 

I prefer the laminate for safety and cost, the only down side is the thickness makes for heavy doors when framed.


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## BiteAndSqueeze (Jan 17, 2012)

*Thanks*

Thanks for all the above info guys. I am about to embark on building a new enclosure and the info is very handy and has helped me decide how to go about it.

My old enclosure was a converted fisk tank which had been custom built (for fish originally) for our house so it can be viewed from 2 rooms. When I made it into a snake enclosure I made a feature waterfall and pond and lined the rest of the tank with river gravel (which had previously been used in the fish tank- washed of course).

The resulting snake enclosure was quite good looking but the following problems evolved as the snakes grew:-

1. Originally the tank had a variety of rocks, logs and artifical plants and looked quite tropical. As the snakes grew they pretty much wrecked the plants so they had to go. It still looked OK - more of a desert setting.

2. Again as the snakes got bigger and their bigger bodies kept rubbing up against the glass the tank got dirtier and became harder to keep clean.

3. The main reason I am being forced to change is - poo. Little snakes do little snake poo and it dries out fairly quickly. The tank has 2 heat mats underneath it which dried out the poo and I would just pick it up and dispose of it. As the snakes got bigger (2 carpet pythons- both now about 6 - 7 feet long) the poo got bigger and didn't dry out as quickly so if it wasn't disposed of quickly if smelled. I thought by scooping up the poo and keeping the gravel dry that tank would not smell. That was OK for a while but evenutally the build up of snakey substances permeated the gravel with a rotten stench. I have cleaned it out and washed the gravel but the problem is that if the gravel gets wet, it starts to smell again. Lately it has been quite putrid and I suspect that the seal between the pond and the gravel has given way allowing water the seep into the gravel, get heated up by the heat mats and give off a quite unpleasant odour which permeates the house. As you can imagine, the wife is really happy with this.

4. Top access to the enclosure (tank) is a pain in the **** and I would rather have front access.

5. Cleaning out the pond (with rock) was a pain when the snakes (as they did often) pooed in the water.

My lessons from this:-

1. Making a pretty looking tank is unfortunately not that practical - especially for larger snakes.

2. Have a gravel substrate (or anything else which can accumulate snakey odours) is not a good idea.

Where to from here?

I am now going to make a larger enclosure from an old cupboard with all hard surfaces that can be cleaned off. Given the comments above I intend to build a rail in the middle and put 2 sets of glass sliding doors (will reduce the sizes of glass needed), I will also build a slide-in divider to divide the top and bottom so I can put the snakes into one section while I clean the other and/or separate them for feeding purposes. (I have had 2 pythons living together since babies - about 6 years - with no problems but I have always had to take them out and feed them separately.)

I will still try to make the new enclosure look interesting but I will keep any inclusions to things which are easily cleaned.


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