# Monster or moggie? Claws out in catfight



## Auzlizardking (Jun 15, 2008)

We have two cats that are keep in side - but when you read this you start to feel sick at what this could lead too.
The savannah, a cross between a wild African serval and a domestic cat, could be in Australia as early as September.
Also this is about wild dogs that they have now introduced in to Aust.:evil:

http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2008/06/14/1213321683010.html


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## Smellie (Jun 15, 2008)

my missus cat looks just like this and it's your normal house cat, we were amazed by it.

I'm against the idea though, kinda stupid the things people will do to be cool or different or whatever. If you want to be different get into reptiles


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## MatE (Jun 15, 2008)

Big moggies are already here,especially seeing videos of some of the one in Vic.But knowingly bringing something into the environment that has so much potential has got to be worrying.


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## mrmikk (Jun 15, 2008)

Proof is there and history shows we do not need this monster at all in this country and we need to do everything we can to keep it out. 

I don't care what people say in favour of it, it is a potential environmental terrorist even more efficient and effective at wiping out our native fauna than the feral cats we now to put up with as a result of irresponsible 'cat lovers'.


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## 888lowndes888 (Jun 15, 2008)

My Girlfriends parents had a Begnal which is a cross between Asian Leopard cat and something else and was very similar to the savannah. He was MASSIVE and I hate cats but he was an exception to the rule. They are so intelligent and he was always kept in a large outdoor enclosure as they are too big to be in the house and unlike most cats are rather un-elegant. They ended up giving him away 4 months back after about a year as he wasn't getting the attention needed. In saying all this if they are given to careless owners it could create massive problems.


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## reptile32 (Jun 15, 2008)

you can bring cats in from overseas, why not reptiles, i think they should bring in the same laws as what the reptiles have , no exotics, thats what it is isnt,


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## Auzlizardking (Jun 15, 2008)

Along with wolf-dog breeds, are slipping into Australia through a loophole in our biosecurity system.

Why not just open the doors and let everything in - this just can't be good for environment in the long or short term.


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## alex_c (Jun 15, 2008)

reptile32 said:


> you can bring cats in from overseas, why not reptiles, i think they should bring in the same laws as what the reptiles have , no exotics, thats what it is isnt,



that could interfere with the eradication of feral pigs. no exotics would mean no new American bulldogs.


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## peas_and_corn (Jun 15, 2008)

If you don't want feral pigs, just close down the McDonalds in Elizabeth


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## fraser888 (Jun 15, 2008)

Some people are just weird!!!!


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## Retic (Jun 15, 2008)

Well I can certainly understand why they wouldn't let us bring in a multi generation captive bred Leopard Tortoise from the UK, just imagine the devastation it would cause compared to that harmless little puddy cat.


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## python blue (Jun 15, 2008)

if im not mistaken Savannah cats have been in Australia since the 1980's and in no way agree with this, ive sent email after email to numerous people about this but apparently these cats are only sold de-sexed and considering the amount they want for these cats i dont think they will every become feral in Australia but may be wrong i was told they sell for 4k ea


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## TonyPeacock (Jun 16, 2008)

*Savannahs are NOT in Australia: YET*

Bengal cats - a domestic mixed with an Asian Leopard Cat are already in Australia. Savannah cats, a mix with the African Serval are not yet here. The fact that we stuffed up once is no reason to do it again.

There is also a big difference - Asian Leopard Cats are about the same size as a domestic and from jungle environs. Servals are more like 20kg - four or five times the size of a domestic and from African savannahs. These cats are bigger and stronger and potentially more dangerous to the environment.

I've done a lot of media in the past few days on this issue and appreciate support from Aussie python people - we may get a change in the regulations (they never took into account that people would breed these animals). It is worthwhile keeping up the focus. Thanks.

My blog is www.feral.typepad.com where I've commented more - also just posted a You Tube clip of an F5 - the cats that will enter Australia.


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## becca (Jun 16, 2008)

yeh i saw those cats about 3-4months ago at a pet shop in robina on the goldcoast and they wanted like $5000 or wateva for it.


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## Australis (Jun 16, 2008)

alex_c said:


> that could interfere with the eradication of feral pigs. no exotics would mean no new American bulldogs.



What eradication of feral pigs? 

You don't mean people hunting pigs with American bulldogs do you..?


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## Drazzy (Jun 16, 2008)

peas_and_corn said:


> If you don't want feral pigs, just close down the McDonalds in Elizabeth



Nice one!


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## vitticep (Jun 16, 2008)

Yay for the hybrids,
If it happens in America, it has to be the best thing ever doesnt it?


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## herptrader (Jun 16, 2008)

This thread was posted on the same subject last week:

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/other-animals/feral-animals-conference-85152


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## herptrader (Jun 16, 2008)

I think you will find that they are in Australia:

Have a look this web site which they can be ordered through: http://savannahcats.com.au/

If you want to do something about it you may wish to consider contacting the Federal Minister for the Environment - Peter Garret (Note there is "email button so making your voice heard is just one click away:



> http://www.labor.com.au/people/nsw/garrett_peter.php
> 
> *Minister for Environment, Heritage and The Arts*
> 
> ...





TonyPeacock said:


> Bengal cats - a domestic mixed with an Asian Leopard Cat are already in Australia. Savannah cats, a mix with the African Serval are not yet here. The fact that we stuffed up once is no reason to do it again.
> 
> There is also a big difference - Asian Leopard Cats are about the same size as a domestic and from jungle environs. Servals are more like 20kg - four or five times the size of a domestic and from African savannahs. These cats are bigger and stronger and potentially more dangerous to the environment.
> 
> ...


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## -Peter (Jun 16, 2008)

I assume as they are cross-genus they would be sterile.?????


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 16, 2008)

These cats (some are 2 ft.high themselves) can leap 10 ft in the air to catch a bird. Far out...that says it all

Interesting kitty facts - NOT


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 16, 2008)

Forgot to mention they can also swim quite well and climb...nothing will be safe
I betcha they are bloody strong too


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## Fiona74 (Jun 16, 2008)

It is all well and good if the cats are sold desexed, but that doesn't stop them killing our wildlife and yes I agree they should cost thousands of $$ to buy, that way you would hope that whoever bought them cared enough (about their money if not the wildlife) to keep the cat in a suitable enclosure.
But I don't think we need anymore cats in Australia, we can't even keep control of the ones we've got now!


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## herptrader (Jun 16, 2008)

*"Big enough to hun koalas"*

From:http://feral.typepad.com/



> I had a worried call from Australia (and no doubt the world's) only koala chiropractor, Shane Wassington. No joke. He was concerned that if feral cats grow larger, they may become capable of taking on a koala - a species that has never really had to cope with a climbing predator.
> We have no idea really whether bigger cats would engage in prey-switching. But Spencer's paper shows new genes into a population can lead to growth in the population. Savannah cats are bred to be big. One of the importing companies says on its website it's "F5s" are more like "F3s" in appearance (ie more like a serval) and once they have the animals in Australia, they'll be breeding for serval appearance - that means big cats doesn't it?


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## tooninoz (Jun 16, 2008)

dino the horse said:


> It is all well and good if the cats are sold desexed, but that doesn't stop them killing our wildlife and yes I agree they should cost thousands of $$ to buy, that way you would hope that whoever bought them cared enough (about their money if not the wildlife) to keep the cat in a suitable enclosure.



No, because the same people that buy these ugly looking mongrels will be the same ego-driven fools that _need _a big shiny SUV to get them to the shops, kids to school etc, with nil regard for the environment.
When the status-symbol gets too big and too unmanageable, they'll simply let it go. Guaranteed.

Bombard http://www.savannahcats.com.au/ with emails making them aware of your position. The real danger is not the cats, it's the importers and the idiots that will inevitably buy them.


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## mysnakesau (Jun 16, 2008)

I've been reading up on wildlife site about them cats and can see them becoming the next biggest problem and they can't ban importing them because they are classed as domestic pets


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## Noongato (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh wow, im sooo excited now, as you can tell from my username im obsessed with servals, mind you i love our aussie wildlife too, so cat-lovers will hate me when i buy a savannah, as it will be locked up in a huge cage/avairy.... I better start saving.....


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## Tatelina (Jun 16, 2008)

This is scarying me. :S 

Is enough being done to stop this?


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## Aussietoby (Jun 16, 2008)

peas_and_corn said:


> If you don't want feral pigs, just close down the McDonalds in Elizabeth



HAHA, good old Elizabeth. If anything goes wrong just blame the northern suburbs.


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## fine_jungles (Jun 16, 2008)

it looks very similar too the bengal cat also a cross with the domestic cat there price tag started of at thousands and now you can get them for $350 my neighbor has one like a mini leopard.


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## mysnakesau (Jun 16, 2008)

boa said:


> Well I can certainly understand why they wouldn't let us bring in a multi generation captive bred Leopard Tortoise from the UK, just imagine the devastation it would cause compared to that harmless little puddy cat.



You're a funny guy Boa. I presume this was a saracastic comment  Problem with these puddy cats is they aren't a little cat which means they will be capable of pulling down larger prey such as livestock, and adding to our already cat problem who is wiping out a lot of our native animals  Our quolls are about to be added to the endangered list and cats are the major blame followed then by the dogs.


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## moosenoose (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh how Cool!! How much are they?? A cat like that will bring in bigger rats....surely  Forget about culling off the Roo's...this baby will certainly do the job :lol:


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## Reptile_Boy (Jun 16, 2008)

as said before if we can bring them into ustralia why arnt we aloud to bring red tail boas and corns into oz?


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## Auzlizardking (Jun 16, 2008)

Reptile_Boy said:


> as said before if we can bring them into ustralia why arnt we aloud to bring red tail boas and corns into oz?



Sadly corns and boas are already here - as said before it's sicking that people just want more and more different animals and we can't live unless we are changing the normal way of life - correct me if I'm wrong but ain't they now in the middle of fomenting designer baby's?
What happens when they have crossed everything on earth - do we then blow everything up and start again or will there be anything left to blow up?


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## angel (Jun 16, 2008)

I did not bother to read every silly little reply on this thread, unless you understand cats in general, and from a breeders point of view , you will not under stand where he is coming from FIFTH GEN, cats that have been bred in captivity for more then five litters minium and after this time, allowing one litter a year - this ensures good blood lines. AND if you read the price tag attached and the requirements they ask for, for the sale to happen, you would be silly to spend that sort of money on a cat to allow to go wild. These sort of cats are bred for there tempermate and look - for showing!! NOT for release in to the wild.

These people have not said any thing about wild dogs it was the critics that did.

Go use goggle and read they front page it will tell you a lot about the people they are and the animals they breed - you should not bag feral cats but there feral owners, they have to start some where and it is usually the owners.

DON'T get me wrong, if it is feral and destrying our wild life - i think it needs to be put down humanely - i will even help you do it - but don't bag out a breed of cats that you do not enough about.

love you all - look forward to your stupid replys


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## mebebrian (Jun 16, 2008)

Well here's my stupid reply, was it worth looking forward too angel?


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## mebebrian (Jun 16, 2008)

DON'T get me wrong, if it is feral and destrying our wild life - i think it needs to be put down humanely - i will even help you do it - but don't bag out a breed of cats that you do not enough about.


The point is, if cats were never imported then we wouldn't have the feral cat problem we now have.
So why import more?

So i'll "bag out" all cats...


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## herptrader (Jun 16, 2008)

The fact that a significant number of cats (and other species too for that matter) got into Australia before quarantined measures were put in place is bad enough. To my mind measures now need to taken to reduce their numbers both in the wild and domestically.

It is sheer lunacy to introduce into the gene pool genetics from larger non domestic species. Just one escaped Tom out for one night can introduce into the feral cat population. This would be one cat that once let out of the bag cannot easily be put back in.

In all honesty. If you wish to keep these species then move to the US or Africa and go for it.


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## Dipcdame (Jun 16, 2008)

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO... yet ANOTHER introduced species to go wild and feral.............................. I totally disagree......... KEEP THEM OUT


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## Noongato (Jun 16, 2008)

When i have lots of money i plan to get one and be a responsible owner and never let it on the 'free dirt', it will be in a big avairy or in the house. I hate cats but this is the only one i would ever make a exception for.

[video=youtube;vt7KVs1DH1E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt7KVs1DH1E&feature=related[/video] 

I have always liked the serval since i was a kid so when i learnt you can get them as a domestic cat cross i was blown away.


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## cris (Jun 16, 2008)

angel said:


> AND if you read the price tag attached and the requirements they ask for, for the sale to happen, you would be silly to spend that sort of money on a cat to allow to go wild. These sort of cats are bred for there tempermate and look - for showing!! NOT for release in to the wild.



I see your point, it may take a while before they become common enought that it becomes likely for them to be able to escape and potentially "improve" they feral cat gene pool. Allowing them in is just creating a problem for the future. It may not be for another 20-30 years, but no one can say it will never be a potentially disaterous problem for our wildlife.



angel said:


> Go use goggle and read they front page it will tell you a lot about the people they are and the animals they breed - you should not bag feral cats but there feral owners, they have to start some where and it is usually the owners.



The cats are the problem, its quite simple. Go out in the bush you will find cats and none of them have owners, if one fertile savanah gets out it could have massive implications for our wildlife. It wouldnt be far off being one of the worst animals to introduce here. Also most ppl dont bag feral cats, they normally just shoot them and perhaps even cook them up :lol:


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## Noongato (Jun 16, 2008)

Any cat that gets in my yard is fair game.....


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## alex_c (Jun 16, 2008)

if even one of these cats becomes feral and breeds with say 10 other feral cats it could be absolutely devastating to the local wildlife its not just bigger size it will be introducing but better hunting skills and instincts. so really anybody even considering importing these animals obviously doesnt care about the native animals of this country and only wants to import one of these cats because they think they are cool or just wants to breed them and sell them at ridiculous prices


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## cement (Jun 16, 2008)

"Hybrids of wild animals and domestic animals are a stupid American trend to breed more and more exotic pets," said Professor Peacock, who works at the University of Canberra.
"This loophole will effectively lead to fitting a nuclear warhead to our already devastating feral cat population. Haven't our native animals got enough to contend with?"

Says it all right here. and I quote " A STUPID AMERICAN TREND".


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## HerpDr (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't think these cats are gonna be a problem. They are not going to be commonly seen cats as not many people will breed them and they are too expensive. I hardly ever see any Bengals and they have been in Australia for years. 
Also these are not the only large breed cats, there are Maine Coons which can reach over 12kg and Siberian Cats which get even bigger and no one is making a big deal about them. Maine Coons are becoming popular as well. Many more cat owners are becoming responsible and keeping cats indoors as well. I think people are over reacting if they think there is going to be a "new" breed of feral cats in Australia. 
We also tend to forget that the main cause of species becoming extinct is humans due to loss of habitat. Feral animals have an influence but foxes do as much damage as cats, and cane toads kill lots of reptiles, and the government is not spending enough to control these.


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## FNQ_Snake (Jun 16, 2008)

mebebrian said:


> So i'll "bag out" all cats...



Why not put them all in a bag and throw them in the river?

:shock:


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## moosenoose (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm gonna go get me a Gippsland Big Cat pair...and breed me some kittens


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## Glidergirl (Jun 17, 2008)

I wish they would make the same laws for cats as they do for dogs. 
I get very peeved with Cats wandering around pooping in other people yards, fighting and most of all killing native wildlife.
I have several ringtail possums that were kept as they were unreleasable, one of them became very sick last week and diagnosed with toxoplasmosis wich could have been fatal if i had not gotten veterinary help, the vet said the most likely cause was from the mulch I have on the floor of the aviary that was probably infected before I got the mulch.
Toxoplasmosi is caused my cat poo.


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## herptrader (Jun 17, 2008)

HerpDr said:


> I don't think these cats are gonna be a problem. They are not going to be commonly seen cats as not many people will breed them and they are too expensive. I hardly ever see any Bengals and they have been in Australia for years.
> Also these are not the only large breed cats, there are Maine Coons which can reach over 12kg and Siberian Cats which get even bigger and no one is making a big deal about them. Maine Coons are becoming popular as well. Many more cat owners are becoming responsible and keeping cats indoors as well. I think people are over reacting if they think there is going to be a "new" breed of feral cats in Australia.
> We also tend to forget that the main cause of species becoming extinct is humans due to loss of habitat. Feral animals have an influence but foxes do as much damage as cats, and cane toads kill lots of reptiles, and the government is not spending enough to control these.




Even with your logic, which I consider to be totally naive, it only takes one Tom out on the prowl for one evening to get the genes into the feral population.

*Why take the risk?*​
We live in the middle of the suburbs and regularly set cat traps. About half the animals we hand over to the authorities are completely feral. The assumption is that this suburban feral population comes in part from unwanted kittens being dumped in a local park (Jells Park for those that know the area.)


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## congo_python (Jun 17, 2008)

We should start a petition to stop the importation of this very real threat to Australias wildlife and send it off to the relivant Authoritys.

Congo


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## HerpDr (Jun 17, 2008)

I know that there are lots of feral cats out there and that they are a major problem. I just think people are over reacting to think that F6 Savannah cats which will be sold desexed to the public will result in a new breed of feral cats that will cause devestation to our wildlife.


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## Jungletrans (Jun 17, 2008)

If they are $5000 and kept in enclosures they will be a target for theft . Once stolen l'm sure the nebourhood junkie will be very responsible with it .


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 17, 2008)

Maybe it's the "cat breeders" that is the problem....(not the general public), always trying to develop new/different coat patterns, etc. and not afraid to use moggies to cross breed with their so called show cats to get the highly prized coat patterns.

I've had a fair bit to do with cat breeders and perhaps I am a little more informed than others 

Bottom line is...we don't want more cats, bigger cats, with highly developed hunting skills


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## mysnakesau (Jun 17, 2008)

Well the environmental dept already see them as a potential risk waiting so surely they have more facts and research than any of us. I agree with herp trader. It only takes 1 tom to produce a litter of up to 8 or so kittens to continue on the tradition. Have you seen the size of feral cats that live in the bush? They are already much bigger than the cat you see running across the road. But lets just let one savanah loose to upsize them one more......NOT.

You are right, foxes do as much damage as cats. And cane toads are now known to be killing our brown snakes. Why add to the problem? They have banned import of other animals, I think cats should be too. We have enough in the country now to keep good quality bloodlines going without needing to import anymore. 

And don't think the price tag will discourage people mistreating these cats. I have sold many exotic birds in my pet shop and have feedback that the birds have escaped, killed by their pet dog or cat, or they have brought them back - sick of the noise. Some people have more money than sense.


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## TonyPeacock (Jun 17, 2008)

*Anyone in Darwin?*

Is there anyone in Darwin, or nearby, that wants to comment in an ABC television story on the Savannah cat issue? Private me your mobile and I'll pass it on to the reporter.


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## trader (Jun 17, 2008)

TonyPeacock said:


> Is there anyone in Darwin, or nearby, that wants to comment in an ABC television story on the Savannah cat issue? Private me your mobile and I'll pass it on to the reporter.


 
 *or anyone in Darwin want to watch the news tonight? *

My husband *Daavid* as well as *Rick Shine* will be on. They have finished interviewing my husband over the phone, the camermen have left his office...but we do not live in Darwin to watch....:cry:

Could someone please let us know how it goes?

Thanx from a proud wife!


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## TonyPeacock (Jun 17, 2008)

*Media*

I'm doing ABC 666 in Canberra at 10.45am tomorrow (you can stream it) and Radio National Bush Telegraph at 11.05am on this issue. 

Penny Wong said in Parliament last night "I'm advised that the Minister for the Envrionemtn has iniated a process for possible amendment of the live import list to prohibit savannah cats".

That would be a great outcome and the AussiePython people should take some credit. The petition you initiated is being signed at about 1 a minute all day.

The science is really against these animals - even with only a small amount of Serval in them, they represent a new threat that needs assessment. We had carp for a century before the Boolara strain took off.


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## herptrader (Jun 17, 2008)

Just in case you missed it the online petition to stop the introduction of this breed into Australia can be signed here: http://www.gopetition.com.au/petitions/savannah-cats/signatures.html


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## herptrader (Jun 17, 2008)

TonyPeacock said:


> The science is really against these animals - even with only a small amount of Serval in them, they represent a new threat that needs assessment. We had carp for a century before the Boolara strain took off.



It is clear from the the Savannah cat companies Australian web site that they selecting for more of the Serval than less:



> The F5 Savannahs that are being imported into Australia will in fact resemble that of an F3 Savannah, that means they will look closer to the Serval than an F5 has ever looked before.



(http://savannahcats.com.au//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6&Itemid=29)


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## jessb (Jun 17, 2008)

angel said:


> I did not bother to read every silly little reply on this thread, unless you understand cats in general, and from a breeders point of view , you will not under stand where he is coming from FIFTH GEN, cats that have been bred in captivity for more then five litters minium and after this time, allowing one litter a year - this ensures good blood lines. AND if you read the price tag attached and the requirements they ask for, for the sale to happen, you would be silly to spend that sort of money on a cat to allow to go wild. These sort of cats are bred for there tempermate and look - for showing!! NOT for release in to the wild.
> 
> These people have not said any thing about wild dogs it was the critics that did.
> 
> ...


 
Stupid replies?! At least most of the replies have been significantly more articulate than your confused, misspelt rant! :?

Anyway, everyone who disagrees with the importation of this animal, stop whining on here, flip back a couple of pages, click on the link and write to Peter Garrett! Make a real difference instead of just complaining! Come on!


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## calisto (Jun 17, 2008)

Thanks for the petition link, just signed it. I hope Peter Garrett heeds it's message!


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## herptrader (Jun 17, 2008)

*I found a few earlier links that I missed*

June 15 - The Age
*Catfight over designer moggies*


http://www.theage.com.au/news/pets/...out-in-catfight/2008/06/14/1213321683010.html







This quote I found particularly disturbing:



> More than 30 savannahs - which cost $5000 for a pet and $10,000 for a breeding animal - are expected to come to Australia in the next five years, with up to 16 now in US quarantine.


Obviously with over a quarter of a million dollars up for grabs importing these things is big buisiness.

and this one also:


> Critics say the savannahs, and an array of other fashionable hybrid cats, along with wolf-dog breeds, are slipping into Australia through a loophole in our biosecurity system.


On the same date there was this thread:

June 15 - The Age
*What do you get when you mix an African serval with a tabby?*

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=85324








> LOCK up your koalas! Genetically watered-down versions of the wolf, leopard and African wild cats are now free to enter Australia and gobble our wildlife - thanks to a legal loophole in the Federal Government's bio-security system.


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## Mangy_Wombat (Jun 19, 2008)

They are cool looking cats................Their skins would look great on my floor and wall


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## herptrader (Jun 19, 2008)

basin_snake said:


> They are cool looking cats................Their skins would look great on my floor and wall



Wonder what they taste like??:lol:


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## herptrader (Jun 19, 2008)

trader said:


> *or anyone in Darwin want to watch the news tonight? *
> 
> My husband *Daavid* as well as *Rick Shine* will be on. They have finished interviewing my husband over the phone, the camermen have left his office...but we do not live in Darwin to watch....:cry:
> 
> ...



So did anybody catch it? I made it clear to the reporter that she should be getting most of the footage from Rick Shine and to use me if only absolutely necessary. I checked the ABC web site searching for stories and they obviously ran it. Rick got the only quotes in the version on the web which was appropriate though I would have been happy to have seen some of my dialogue quoted.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Jun 19, 2008)

death to the savannah cat,

shoot them before they can get off the plane


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## Auzlizardking (Jun 19, 2008)

herptrader said:


> So did anybody catch it? I made it clear to the reporter that she should be getting most of the footage from Rick Shine and to use me if only absolutely necessary. I checked the ABC web site searching for stories and they obviously ran it. Rick got the only quotes in the version on the web which was appropriate though I would have been happy to have seen some of my dialogue quoted.


Thanks to people like you and Rick Shine we might see a amendment of the live import list to prohibit savannah cats"..
Keep up the great work guys.


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## herptrader (Jun 19, 2008)

moosenoose said:


> I'm gonna go get me a Gippsland Big Cat pair...and breed me some kittens



So Moose, Have you signed the petition yet? It is now at well over 1600 signatures:
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/savannah-cats.html


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## Noongato (Jun 19, 2008)

I signed this one, http://www.gopetition.com/online/19994.html to support them.... You guys are winning though, drat.


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## Sidonia (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for the link MidnightServal.

i especially love this:


> Being responsible breeders, Savannah Cats Australia de-sex and microchip all kittens prior to them going to their new homes. On top of this all new potential owners are subjected to a vigorous qualification process to be an owner of a Savannah Cat. To own and care for any animal is a privilege, it is not a right. Further to this, potential owners must then sign a legally binding contract which contains strict conditions.


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## moosenoose (Jun 19, 2008)

herptrader said:


> So Moose, Have you signed the petition yet? It is now at well over 1600 signatures:
> http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/savannah-cats.html



But I want a giant savannah cat  ...oh...do I have to sign it??


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## notechistiger (Jun 23, 2008)

I'll get one.

I reckon that anything that can take down the koala is a good thing.


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## Vixen (Jun 24, 2008)

TonyPeacock said:


> Bengal cats - a domestic mixed with an Asian Leopard Cat are already in Australia. Savannah cats, a mix with the African Serval are not yet here. The fact that we stuffed up once is no reason to do it again.


 
Bengals are no different to your average house cat, same size, same temperament, same hunting ability..

If a system was put in place with licensing a neccesity to keep these animals, like reptiles, id see no problem with it. 

Plus in conjuction with a law of having to keep the animals locked inside at all times, or with access to an outside pen only, they wouldnt be a problem.

I dont see what is so hard about creating and enforcing this law, the government should do something about it. It would stop 99% of the problems why people complain about cats..


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## Vixen (Jun 24, 2008)

Metal_Jazz said:


> Thanks for the link MidnightServal.
> 
> i especially love this:


 
What is so funny about that.. thats exactly the kind of laws that need to be in place to stop people like you whinging. This would eliminate the risk of them breeding with stray cats, plus a responsible owner would not let the animal free roam anyway.. 

There is such thing as responsible cat owner people, me being one of them. Just because you dont like cats, noone can huh?


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## Sidonia (Jun 24, 2008)

VixenBabe said:


> What is so funny about that.. thats exactly the kind of laws that need to be in place to stop people like you whinging. This would eliminate the risk of them breeding with stray cats, plus a responsible owner would not let the animal free roam anyway..
> 
> There is such thing as responsible cat owner people, me being one of them. Just because you dont like cats, noone can huh?




Waah waah waaah.

There is nothing funny about it. Did anything in what I said have any indication that I found it humorous? No.

If you bothered to think about what I was saying I am actually _*for*_ cats and was saying that I love that quote... meaning that I think that it should be like that for every cat breeder/owner.


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## Ned_fisch (Jun 24, 2008)

So are they just a Leopard x Domestic cat or/and are they x with a Lion and Cheetah? Thats gonna do alot to our enviroment, there goes half the Koala population if they get out. There's going to be alot of lead sold in the next 10 years.


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## McBoob_Inc (Jun 24, 2008)

trouser_snake6 said:


> So are they just a Leopard x Domestic cat or/and are they x with a Lion and Cheetah? Thats gonna do alot to our enviroment, there goes half the Koala population if they get out. There's going to be alot of lead sold in the next 10 years.


 

Hehe, nice one trouser.......like my Dad use to say " a good cat is a dead cat ! "


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## Vixen (Jun 24, 2008)

Metal_Jazz said:


> Waah waah waaah.
> 
> There is nothing funny about it. Did anything in what I said have any indication that I found it humorous? No.
> 
> If you bothered to think about what I was saying I am actually _*for*_ cats and was saying that I love that quote... meaning that I think that it should be like that for every cat breeder/owner.


 
Nevermind, thought you were being sarcastic.


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## Noongato (Jun 24, 2008)

Under strict conditions i really hope that they are allowed into australia, but they should all require to be caged or housed at all times, which is what i would do if i get one. I would need some serious donations off alot of peope to get up 5-10 grand hahaha. They should be licenced too, as i would be willing to pay for a licence if im willing to spend that amount on one animal. Regular housing inspections for the animals and if any arnt accounted for (escaped) the owner to be punished for negligence and a hunt-down for the escapee. Least that way there is records of how many in australia and punishment for those neglectful owners, as well as keeping track on who is breeding the savannah.


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## Vixen (Jun 24, 2008)

What really freaking annoys me about cat haters, is that you think killing random stray cats every now and then is going to solve the problem. WRONG. For every one you kill, there is probably another negligent owner abandoning one.

If you really want to do something about it, get off your lazy ****s and do something thats really going to help. Start petitioning and campaigning to the government, to have licensing and specific housing requirements for cats. 

*Hit the base of the problem, thats the only way its going to be resolved and fixed!*

1. A licensing system similar to reptiles would be a good start, where cats, moggy or purebred, need to be written down in a record to keep track. These details need to be passed on when a cat goes to a new home.

2. All MUST be desexed prior to leaving for a new home, or if you already have an older cat. 

3. All cats are required to be microchipped, with owner and license details etc

4. For breeders, a list of names and details of interested parties must be collected BEFORE a litter is planned, to ensure each can go to a new home. When at the new home, the persons are required to bring their animal to the vet to prove it is in their care, and license / microchip details to be checked.

5. Strict housing rules need to be put in place, indoors only or access to a pen in the yard, eliminate free roaming cats.

6. Fines to all persons who ignore these laws. People would soon learn to respect them, and to be honest, its not all that hard to do. My cat is already desexed, microchipped, and not allowed to free roam.


Thinking about it for an hour last night I had much better ideas, I know ive forgotton to add something.. will update if I remember.


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## Noongato (Jun 24, 2008)

Yep i agree, I dont like cats but i dont hate them either. It all comes down to being the owners fault. A bigger cat than the other doesnt make a difference. BTW a savannah isnt a leopard x domestic, its a serval - which is a small wild cat anyway, more legs than anything. 
I think people are getting a little too worried about the savannah, if the savannah is such a huge threat, think whats going to happen if they re-introduce the thylacine.


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## Vixen (Jun 24, 2008)

People also seem to be forgetting that WE have cause just as much harm if not more than cats.. How about you shoot these hooligans in the face when you see an innocent snake get shoveled, or when someone purposely swerves to hit a reptile on the road.

People have a CHOICE about their actions, yet they still continue to be imbeciles. Cats on the other hand are following their natural instinct.. they dont have a choice in the matter. I dont ever recall cats asking to be introduced to Australia, once again look in the mirror for that error.

So who's the worse culprit? Not sure about you but its pretty damn obvious to me.


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## beefa270 (Jun 24, 2008)

My rifle wont mind them so much


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## shlanger (Jun 24, 2008)

Where are 'they' going to get thylacines from?


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## herptrader (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *herptrader* 

 
_So Moose, Have you signed the petition yet? It is now at well over 1600 signatures:
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/savannah-cats.html_





moosenoose said:


> But I want a giant savannah cat  ...oh...do I have to sign it??



So have you signed it yet?

Note you can still sign it and have dreams about hunting Koala's with your giant Savannah at your side and trusty elephant gun in your hand.


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 24, 2008)

I am searching for the ideal world too.....where no cats roam free
Good Luck vixenbabe


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## Noongato (Jun 24, 2008)

shlanger said:


> Where are 'they' going to get thylacines from?


 
The cloning thing. Technology is working wonders.
Wack one of those cloned embryos in a fossa or something and voila


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## herptrader (Jun 24, 2008)

And when one Tom just happens to get out for just one night and mate with the local feral population it all becomes meaningless!

Why take the risk!​


VixenBabe said:


> What really freaking annoys me about cat haters, is that you think killing random stray cats every now and then is going to solve the problem. WRONG. For every one you kill, there is probably another negligent owner abandoning one.
> 
> If you really want to do something about it, get off your lazy ****s and do something thats really going to help. Start petitioning and campaigning to the government, to have licensing and specific housing requirements for cats.
> 
> ...


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## shlanger (Jun 24, 2008)

Perhaps the serval could take over the ecological niche left by the thylacine!


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 24, 2008)

Ask the savannah cat breeders what they do with the rejects. ie, the ones without the 
"desired" coat pattern.... my guess is they sell em off cheap to anyone that will pay...they have to re coup those millions of dollars that they spent developing savannahs and trying to send em to Oz.
C'mon they are in it for the dollar....not much else


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## Noongato (Jun 24, 2008)

Undesirable caracteristics = Culling. Dog breeders do it with their expensive pedigree dogs. So i assume they would to.


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 24, 2008)

They won't cull if they can get a dollar for it.

Look at all the deformed doggies around, parrot mouth, cleft palate, hip displaysia


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## Noongato (Jun 24, 2008)

Whoa i found some piks of some cats:

http://peter.stillhq.com/jasmine/blog/ny-maine-coon3.jpg - Maine Coon

http://www.candcsavannahs.com/images/svatshow.jpg - F3 Savannah (more serval than the F5 in Aust)

There is some big cats out there...


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## Sidonia (Jun 24, 2008)

midnightserval said:


> http://peter.stillhq.com/jasmine/blog/ny-maine-coon3.jpg - Maine Coon






Maine Coons are my favorite type of cat. I will own one one day.


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## Noongato (Jun 24, 2008)

Id rather a savannah, that coon cat is creepy....


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## Brianna (Jun 24, 2008)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Maine Coons were developed purely from domesticated cats. 

They are therefore completely different to importing a species that has some percentage of wild-cat in its genes, and may therefore have better hunting instincts, athletic abilities, and genes that could potentially result in larger cats than the Maine Coon.

I can't believe that people are seriously presenting an argument that a cat which will wreak havoc on our wildlife if released, should be imported because people have done harm to the environment! That is completely beside the point, and in no way a good argument for allowing this importation to occur. 

Even if such licensing conditions were imposed by the government, there are always accidents that happen that result in escapes, and with such a high population of feral cats, a couple of accidents could result in long term detriment to the Australian Eco-system.

As Herptrader has said, it is definitely not worth the risk. 

Just because Savanah cats would be a novel and exciting pet, doesn't mean that we are justified taking that risk. I can't believe that there is a petition FOR allowing the Savanah Cat! Is there one for importing fire ants? Because I reckon they would be an awesome pet!:evil:


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## Southside Morelia (Jun 24, 2008)

I own a Bengal and I own herps. My cat stays indoors and 90% of this immature dribble is laughable!!! I agree that ferals are bad and I also agree that they should be exterminated!!! Owners that let these animals loose should be to blame, not the animal.
This thread is a different debate though, although another cat bash...painful in itself!.
It's a cat that costs $5K + correct...That's like saying (an analogy here) you'd let your GTP hatchy or Albino Darwin loose or not confine it responsibly...do you think that anyone in the market for an animal like that would be so irresponsible? I'm guessing no...so without any evidence of this happening and not owning a crystal ball, it's ridiculous speculation! 
People owning a breed like this would be "the" responsible cat owners.....do people owning GTP and Albinos or the like have their animals escape??? _haven't heard of any._....baa baa let's all act like sheep here, as always...
Maybe, like mentioned before, that most of you who that have posted here, instead of whinging about cats, do something constructive and petition about climate change & global warming, deforestation, all caused by humans and destroying OUR natural habitat for our native fauna....I think this is more of a global & local concern than "the cat"...but back to the debate here, this is a cat that is not even very common in Australia and this has not happened, and there is no evidence it even will....
If and when it happens, as people have prophersised that they will be hunting down Koalas :lol::lol:, i'll be the first person to admit my wrongs and go and hunt them down, because at the end of the day, they do have nice pelts that would make a nice coat.
I have always said that when our cat passes on I'll stuff him. not to the approval of family members. lol


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## tooninoz (Jun 24, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> I own a Bengal and I own herps. My cat stays indoors and 90% of this immature dribble is laughable!!! I agree that ferals are bad and I also agree that they should be exterminated!!! Owners that let these animals loose should be to blame, not the animal.
> This thread is a different debate though, although another cat bash...painful in itself!.
> It's a cat that costs $5K + correct...That's like saying (an analogy here) you'd let your GTP hatchy or Albino Darwin loose or not confine it responsibly...do you think that anyone in the market for an animal like that would be so irresponsible? I'm guessing no...so without any evidence of this happening and not owning a crystal ball, it's ridiculous speculation!
> People owning a breed like this would be "the" responsible cat owners.....do people owning GTP and Albinos or the like have their animals escape??? _haven't heard of any._....baa baa let's all act like sheep here, as always...
> ...



Hang on, you say ".*..so without any evidence of this happening and not owning a crystal ball, it's ridiculous speculation! " *whilst bagging opponents of the feral,
then go on to say "*i'll be the first person to admit my wrongs and go and hunt them down, because at the end of the day, they do have nice pelts that would make a nice coat."

*Wouldnt it just be easier to ban them before we get the problem? Who wants to solve a problem after it was intentionally instigated with no benefit at all? It doesnt make any sense? 
I'll quote one of the sigs on the petition;
"Once again we will see the will of the urban riche imposed upon the general population because of ego and the desire to impress..."
I'd have to agree.


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## TonyPeacock (Jun 24, 2008)

*Invasive species are important Scotty*

I've got to respond to Scotty's rant (the mature one).

Next to land clearing, invasive species are the biggest impact on biodiversity, worldwide. Showing concern about this environmental issue doesn't mean people don't care about climate change or other environmental issues. Most people are capable of having a few environmental concerns at the same time.

Australia has the worst extinction rate of animals in the world, and the most number of threatened animal species. Cats are a factor (not the biggest - foxes are worse; and each area is different).

We aren't talking about the next few years where responsible owners look after expensive pets. The price of Savannahs in the US is already plummeting as newer exotic breeds become available - lots of ads for them online for $800. Savannahs won't stay at $5,000 here forever and once they come in, the federal government has no powers over what the breeders do.

Savannahs show that the _Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Act_ needs modifying. Until you snake guys kicked up a fuss, this cat was going to be let in with *zero* public consultation. The same would apply for the other six or seven hybrid cat "breeds" and for wolf-dog hybrids and coyote-dog hybrids. Half a million Americans own a wolf-dog hybrid and the Centre for Disease Control notes that they kill an American every 18 months on average (not the owners - other people's children).

This debate is important and worth having. Frankly, it has probably taken 10 minutes of the Environment Minister's time, so it is hardly a distraction. The RSPCA, the Australian Veterinary Association, Humane Society International Australia, Woolproducers Australia etc etc all think this is a bad idea.

Nice that you're willing to help with the clean up if you're wrong.

If I'm wrong and we end up keeping them out for no real reason, the downside is a few people miss out on owning a spotted cat that looks like a serval and acts like a dog. I'm willing to bet you a beer they'll get over it.


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## herptrader (Jun 24, 2008)

TonyPeacock said:


> .....Until you snake guys kicked up a fuss



Herpers Tony, *Herpers, *possibly Herps. 

For the record Herps are those interested in herpetoculture, ie: to do with reptiles and amphibians.

And for the record it is my observation that herpers come in all shapes and sizes.. and all walks of life. Most realise the damage that cats and other feral species, habitat destruction etc. are doing to our island home but a few have yet to work it out. Like I say - there are all sorts.


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## herptrader (Jun 24, 2008)

TonyPeacock said:


> I'm willing to bet you a beer they'll get over it.



Next time you are in Melbourne I have a beer, and a yarn for you Tony. Please give me some advance warning.


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## Southside Morelia (Jun 25, 2008)

Fair comment and a "mature response"...thankyou for that! 
My comment on immature, if you read the post correctly, refers to the 90% by others...
Ido my part for conservation so I can rest assured I am doing my bit, although you have a valid point and I need to change my view...
There you go Tony and others, you can change peoples opinions on issues that I may not have known much about through factual comments....There is a history here Tony about cat bashing, hence my response.
Tooninoz, read the post i am for "exterminating" ferals, not bagging opponents to ferals.
As far as ego driven, come on mate, again casting dispersions about me or people that own these sort of animals, my cat stays indoors and people that come to my place may or may not see it...are you that shallow that you would buy a cat to show off, whatever! Why do people buy Albinos, GTP's, RSP's etc etc.....probably for the same reason I do, they like the animal!
We researched our cat before we purchased it! This breed is smarter than most, playful, athletic, the list goes on....my choice and again, I am a responsible cat owner and herp keeper.
Thanks for the debate....I see your point!




TonyPeacock said:


> I've got to respond to Scotty's rant (the mature one).
> 
> Next to land clearing, invasive species are the biggest impact on biodiversity, worldwide. Showing concern about this environmental issue doesn't mean people don't care about climate change or other environmental issues. Most people are capable of having a few environmental concerns at the same time.
> 
> ...


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## TonyPeacock (Jun 25, 2008)

*One opinion at a time...*

Thanks Scott.

I knew you weren't referring to my posts as rubbish.

The debate needs to be about whether hybrids are allowed in with no risk assessment of their potential "feralness".

Our Cooperative Research Centre has just been presenting data that shows wild dogs in southern Australia are 3.0kg or 24% bigger than they were prior to 1970. This is plain domestic dogs coming into the population and mating with dingoes. So instead of 14.5kg, we have 17.5kg dogs. 

If that trend continues for another 30 years, and dogs are around 21kg, we predict significant switching of prey species. So from a wallaby now to a kangaroo; or packs will take more cattle rather than sheep etc.

This "loophole" in the quarantine law means if I wanted to, I could bring in wolf-dog hybrids, or coyote-dog hybrids, as a private citizen with no public consultation, as long as they are five generations away from the wild species. We are borrowing the definition of what's "wild" from the CITES definition, which has absolutely nothing to do with this debate (its purpose is to stop trade in endangered species, not to define what is a domestic animal). Dogs have probably been domesticated for 40,000 generations separate to wolves - this definition says they are the same thing again after only five back together.

The five generation argument is getting put up a lot - these Savannahs are only 3-9% serval "blood". That's still thousands and thousands of serval genes. The breeders clearly favour genes for serval looks, like the big ears for example. There is absolutely no way of telling that they aren't also selecting for genes for ultrasonic hearing that is one of the great advantages of servals in the wild.

Serval's are the most efficient hunters in Africa, I'm told. They catch 50% of the prey they go for. Most of the prey are rodents. The ability to hear at ultrasonic levels obviosuly is a huge advantage. In the chat pages on pet Savannahs, a number of owners comment that they can never, ever, sneak up on their Savannah - that they are much more alert than normal domestic cats. It seems reasonable that Savannahs do have more sensitive hearing than normal breeds.

I'm arguing that a trait like this could pass from servals to pet Savannahs to feral cats. 

I don't know if I'm right (I'm a reproductive biologist by training and I have taught a tiny bit of University genetics, but I'm far from a geneticist). Many geneticists have agreed with me, though.

The importers cannot show that I'm wrong. No one can because there is no data. It would take a long study to find out - the dog stuff I quoted before has taken more than three decades to become clear. That's a decade longer than this breed has been in existence.


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## Stitched (Jun 25, 2008)

peas_and_corn said:


> If you don't want feral pigs, just close down the McDonalds in Elizabeth


 

HAHAHA brilliant


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## Sidonia (Jun 25, 2008)

herpkeeper said:


> hey, has anyone seen my pussy ???



No, but feel free to post pictures.


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## tooninoz (Jun 25, 2008)

Back to reality....

Tony, i see the AWL logo is back on the Savannah Cats Aust site. I've mailed AWL about it, but what is your position on it?

It would be sad to see this thread descend into yet more *yawn* _pussy _jokes. It's a serious issue.
Sad to see it degenerate into yet another lowest common denominator pissweak joke for pre-pubes.


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## bundy_zigg (Jun 26, 2008)

Ha stuff the savannah, why not start to bring in this interesting cross breed.
I introduce the LIGAR, and he is still growing.


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## Sidonia (Jun 26, 2008)

Ligars are neat looking.... I want a big ligar friend!


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