# Rock Python



## goneself (Jun 28, 2010)

Hey all- I've recently been offered a nothern territory rock python (liasis oenpelliensis)

Haven't seen any aound and just wondered if anyone here kept/bred/knew anything about them..


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## Snowman (Jun 28, 2010)

Read the chapter in Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons on Oenpelliensis. Very interesting article.


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## driftoz (Jun 28, 2010)

i googled rock python and it came up with black head python if so theres heaps around here lots of people have them


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## andyh (Jun 28, 2010)

thers not very many legal ones around, if its legal you can bet it`ll be very pricey, if not be very careful


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## GeckoJosh (Jun 28, 2010)

driftoz said:


> i googled rock python and it came up with black head python if so theres heaps around here lots of people have them


 2 different snakes


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## dragonscrawling (Jun 29, 2010)

Google is not a good source for identification.

If you have the opportunity to get an Oenpelliensis and it is legit then go for it. I don't know anyone with one so I would have to agree with reading the chapter in Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons.


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## siouxie (Jun 29, 2010)

goneself said:


> I've recently been offered a nothern territory rock python (liasis oenpelliensis)


 
yeah, right.


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## redbellybite (Jun 29, 2010)

goneself said:


> Hey all- I've recently been offered a nothern territory rock python (liasis oenpelliensis)
> 
> Haven't seen any aound and just wondered if anyone here kept/bred/knew anything about them..


put up pics would love to see it


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## Mr.James (Jun 29, 2010)

Is there a difference between Morelia Oenpelliensis & Liasis Oenpelliensis?


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

Mr.Boyd said:


> Is there a difference between Morelia Oenpelliensis & Liasis Oenpelliensis?


 
Only in the intelligence of those speaking about them.


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## goneself (Jun 29, 2010)

The current status with these snakes is similar to the situation with the yellow heath monitor and the rough scaled python a few years ago- getting pairs into the hands of breeders. I was just looking for husbandry info from anyone who has some currently, or has had them in the past, not an inbox full of messages calling me a liar or offering to swap coastals for one. Thanks anyway.Now wheres that thread destruct button...


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't really think it is. How is their status similar?



goneself said:


> The current status with these snakes is similar to the situation with the yellow heath monitor and the rough scaled python a few years ago- getting pairs into the hands of breeders. I was just looking for husbandry info from anyone who has some currently, or has had them in the past, not an inbox full of messages calling me a liar or offering to swap coastals for one. Thanks anyway.Now wheres that thread destruct button...


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## Retic (Jun 29, 2010)

You can probably understand peoples scepticism, to my knowledge there aren't any in private hands (legally) so you would be very lucky indeed to have been offered one. There may well be some out there but I haven't heard of legal ones.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jun 29, 2010)

G'day goneself,

The captive status of Oenpelli Pythons is well known, hence the reason you're copping a little bit of unreasonable backlash in this thread. They are only held legally but one facility in the world, and those animals originated from a seizure of illegally held animals many years ago. They were bred by the very experienced original owner, and the new owners have had nothing but failures all round with them. 

There are no Oenpelli Pythons legally held by private keepers, and the way things are looking, there's very little chance there ever will be.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 29, 2010)

Yeah Jonno
I saw one of those animals you are talking about very recently, the chances of reproduction is very slim........ NT zoos are currently lobbying for permission to collect new blood, however they are currently relying on another seizure or injured animal to be brought in.....


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## AM Pythons (Jun 29, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Yeah Jonno
> I saw one of those animals you are talking about very recently, the chances of reproduction is very slim........ NT zoos are currently lobbying for permission to collect new blood, however they are currently relying on another seizure or injured animal to be brought in.....



maybe this guy could help them out barra, lol.. he knows were an illegal one is, just waiting to be seized..lol.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 29, 2010)

Im sure there are a few held off books and being bred by dodgy private keepers, its only a matter of time till one of them gets busted and loses the animals....Although those privates are probably doing a better job establishing a captive population than most Zoos.....lol


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## AUSHERP (Jun 29, 2010)

there was another thread on here somewhere and it hinted that some were being sold as olives.....


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## python_dan89 (Jun 29, 2010)

this is crazy


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## Jonno from ERD (Jun 29, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> there was another thread on here somewhere and it hinted that some were being sold as olives.....


 
I think you may have Oenpelli's confused with Pilbara Olive Pythons. Oenpelli's look nothing like Olives.

Cheers


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## Octane (Jun 29, 2010)

It would be good to get a quantity of these pythons in captivity before their numbers in the wild crash due to cane toad ingress into their habitat. 
Awsome snake like the idea of the colour change thing that these pythons are supposed to do (someone correct me if I am mis-informed)???

Cheers 
Octane


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## -Matt- (Jun 29, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong but the reason these are not permited to be collected (legally) is because the only area that they are found in is sacred aboriginal land.


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## aussie-albino (Jun 29, 2010)

Give them back to the original owner IMO, then in years to come legal ones would reach the hobby, they were doing fine til beaurocrats got hold of them

cheers
Scott


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

Cane toads are already in the areas that oenpellis exist. However they are mammal and bird feeders so the toads haven't had an affect on them.



Octane said:


> It would be good to get a quantity of these pythons in captivity before their numbers in the wild crash due to cane toad ingress into their habitat.
> Awsome snake like the idea of the colour change thing that these pythons are supposed to do (someone correct me if I am mis-informed)???
> 
> Cheers
> Octane



No that's not the only reason. It isn't too hard to get permission from T/O's to collect things.



Mattsnake said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but the reason these are not permited to be collected (legally) is because the only area that they are found in is sacred aboriginal land.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 29, 2010)

Even the NT doesn't permit the collecting of animals in a random fashion, oenpelliensis does occur on Aboriginal lands, but appears to be in drastically reduced numbers as the years (and cane toads) march on. Weigel managed to convince the WA 'conservation authorities" to allow a legal take of RSPs, with spectacular results for the species in captivity, before the toads arrive... oenpelliensis may well be on the path to total extinction...

Jamie


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

What are you basing the 'drastically reduced numbers' statement on?



Pythoninfinite said:


> Even the NT doesn't permit the collecting of animals in a random fashion, oenpelliensis does occur on Aboriginal lands, but appears to be in drastically reduced numbers as the years (and cane toads) march on. Weigel managed to convince the WA 'conservation authorities" to allow a legal take of RSPs, with spectacular results for the species in captivity, before the toads arrive... oenpelliensis may well be on the path to total extinction...
> 
> Jamie


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## -Matt- (Jun 29, 2010)

Have you come across many of these pythons Waruikazi? And can you give insight into the 'other reasons' why oenpelliensis cannot be collected to be established in the hobby?


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2010)

goneself said:


> The current status with these snakes is similar to the situation with the yellow heath monitor and the rough scaled python a few years ago- getting pairs into the hands of breeders. I was just looking for husbandry info from anyone who has some currently, or has had them in the past, not an inbox full of messages calling me a liar or offering to swap coastals for one. Thanks anyway.Now wheres that thread destruct button...


 
what is a 'yellow' heath monitor?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 29, 2010)

Surveys of the Arnhem land escarpment in recent years have reported plummeting numbers of all major vertebrates, and this largely preceded the arrival of Cane Toads. Of course oenpelliensis is a mammal/bird feeder as an adult, but like GTPs and others, the juvies are probably very fond of frogs. In any event, toads kill mammals ond birds, thus reducing the biomass, and availability of food for pythons.

The writings of John Woinarski (spelling - I'm at Mowanjum community near Derby WA as I write this...) and Greg Miles make compelling reading.

Western Australia is the only state that allows the collection of species to be 'established in the hobby." 

Jamie.


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## Bushman (Jun 29, 2010)

> Of course oenpelliensis is a mammal/bird feeder as an adult, but like GTPs and others, the juvies are probably very fond of frogs. In any event, toads kill mammals ond birds, thus reducing the biomass, and availability of food for pythons.


Well said Jamie. I was just about to argue that case re dietary preference of juveniles myself. Your point about the reduction of numbers of prey items available to the adults is a critical one. 


> Western Australia is the only state that allows the collection of species to be 'established in the hobby'.


I never thought that W.A would lead the way in _any_ way regarding their fauna policies, but in this regard they are more advanced than the other states!:shock:


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## Bushman (Jun 29, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Cane toads are already in the areas that oenpellis exist. However they are mammal and bird feeders *so the toads haven't had an affect on them.*
> ...


What are you basing _your_ statement on Waruikazi?


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## ozziepythons (Jun 29, 2010)

Young Oenpelli's would feed upon smaller reptiles and frogs, that grow into predominantly mammal and bird feeding adults. The population could be declining due to the young specimens feeding upon toads and little recruitment into the population, with mainly long lived adults in evidence around the rock escarpments. Without a research scientist out there collecting data we can only speculate, regardless of the convictions of some.


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Surveys of the Arnhem land escarpment in recent years have reported plummeting numbers of all major vertebrates, and this largely preceded the arrival of Cane Toads. Of course oenpelliensis is a mammal/bird feeder as an adult, but like GTPs and others, the juvies are probably very fond of frogs. In any event, toads kill mammals ond birds, thus reducing the biomass, and availability of food for pythons.
> 
> The writings of John Woinarski (spelling - I'm at Mowanjum community near Derby WA as I write this...) and Greg Miles make compelling reading.
> 
> ...



I have read some of Woinarski's papers that relate to west arnhem land and i have not found any citation that states that oenpelli's numbers are in decline. If you have a paper that states that they are i would love to know about it. Woinarski states that the species is vunerable but does not attribute it to toads, infact he says it is more likely due to their specific habitat, changed fire regimes and paoching.



Mattsnake said:


> Have you come across many of these pythons Waruikazi? And can you give insight into the 'other reasons' why oenpelliensis cannot be collected to be established in the hobby?



No i haven't come across any. I've only been in Oenpelli for 6 months and for the majority of it we've been cut off by flood waters. The name Oenpelli is a bit of a misnomer, they may turn up occasionally on the outskirts of the area but they do not 'live' in oenpelli. We are where the flood plain and escarpment country meet, which i think makes for less than ideal country for them. Hunting pressure on large macropods and other mammals along with senseless killing of snakes i think has driven them out of the area if they ever really were here.

The NT gov does allow the collection of animals to be sold into the pet trade. Permits can be obtained from parks and wildlife if you fulfill the required criterea. Thats how David Reed makes his living and think about all the wild caught animals that come out of the NT.



Bushman said:


> What are you basing _your_ statement on Waruikazi?



I'm basing _MY_ statement on the readings i have done on oenpellis and snakes in general along with my own meandering experience. My own experience has shown me that snakes that do not eat frogs as adults generally will not eat them as juvies. To top that off, even frog specialists such as GTS and slatey greys are still around the NT in their appropriate habitats despite the toads (but i will concede that i have found _one_ case of a slatey eating a toad, however it did not die.) The only snakes that i have seen take a significant hit in numbers across the top end with the advance of toads were the death adders and mulgas. 

Oenpellis and cane toads have different habitats, one of them cannot live on rocky escarpment plateus. Also the traditional owners of the escarpment country in Arnhem Land tell me that they are still around in good numbers, seriously who would know best?



ozziepythons said:


> Young Oenpelli's would feed upon smaller reptiles and frogs, that grow into predominantly mammal and bird feeding adults. The population could be declining due to the young specimens feeding upon toads and little recruitment into the population, with mainly long lived adults in evidence around the rock escarpments. Without a research scientist out there collecting data we can only speculate, regardless of the convictions of some.



Reptiles yes, frogs no, toads even more no. Especially considering that many of the frogs that live on the flood plains in our area are poisonous, very few snakes eat them. But you are right in saying that the estimations of population size comes from adult animals and not from the young. BUT for the population to sustain istself, each animal in its entire life only has to replace itself once to keep the population in the same numbers.

Folks i am all for the conservation of this species, but the argument that they need to be brought into captivity to help save them from extiction does not wash because they are not under any immediate threat. I think making them available to the public could increase paoching pressure which would have a negative impact on their numbers.

(It's late and i haven't proof read this post, i'm sorry if i ahve made any mistakes.)


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## nathancl (Jun 29, 2010)

I am with Gordo on this one. I have friends who used to live up there that found adults around the Oenpelli area after the toads became established in the NT. I am yet to hear/read about anything that suggests these guys numbers are dropping due to the presence of toads. 

I agree that perhaps bringing them into captivity would give motive for poaching, this would possibly be detrimental to the population.


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## ozziepythons (Jun 29, 2010)

_Last edited by nathancl; Today at 11:35 PM. *Reason:* brain functionality _​Mate I LOL when I caught sight of that edit note, must be the time of night when all our brains turn fuzzy


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## Tsubakai (Jun 30, 2010)

Bushman said:


> Well said Jamie. I was just about to argue that case re dietary preference of juveniles myself. Your point about the reduction of numbers of prey items available to the adults is a critical one.
> *I never thought that W.A would lead the way in any way regarding their fauna policies, but in this regard they are more advanced than the other states*!:shock:



I'm sure it was more by accident than design


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## Elapidae1 (Jun 30, 2010)

Nice piece of country your living in their Gordo The Oenpelli community pool is is one of the best swims I have taken.
Is a pilot by the name of Tony still posted out there.


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## Sigourd (Jun 30, 2010)

I am wondering why there seems to be a minimal amount of field work having been done with this species. If there is field work currently being done does anyone know who is conducting it? And where I can track down past papers on the Oenpelli Python?


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

I would treat any reported sightings of oenpellis by anyone sceptically especially if they say they have found them around the oenpelli community. I know people who've lived here for years and knowing what they are looking for still haven't found any and i think it is because of the reasons i've said above, lack of prey, unsuitable habitat and a fear of snakes. But i wouldn't say anything is impossible!



nathancl said:


> I am with Gordo on this one. I have friends who used to live up there that found adults around the Oenpelli area after the toads became established in the NT. I am yet to hear/read about anything that suggests these guys numbers are dropping due to the presence of toads.
> 
> I agree that perhaps bringing them into captivity would give motive for poaching, this would possibly be detrimental to the population.


 
The first and last time i was at the pool there was a poo floating around in it because some half wit hippy let all the local kids in. Besides, humans are land animals i don't get this fascination with getting back in the water... We have lungs and limbs for god sake! Tony... If it is the right fella i'm thinking of i think he just moved back to the community cause one pilot got the sack (he crashed the plane lol).



steve1 said:


> Nice piece of country your living in their Gordo The Oenpelli community pool is is one of the best swims I have taken.
> Is a pilot by the name of Tony still posted out there.


 


Sigourd said:


> I am wondering why there seems to be a minimal amount of field work having been done with this species. If there is field work currently being done does anyone know who is conducting it? And where I can track down past papers on the Oenpelli Python?


 
There is alot of red tape to get through to work on indigenous land, i know the T/O of a good of the escarpment country and he really doesn't like parks and wildllife so i don't think he goes out of his way to help them out lol. Also the land can pretty well only be accessed by foot and only during the dry season which would make expeditions expensive and pretty difficult.


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## nathancl (Jun 30, 2010)

100 percent positive ID's on these sightings.


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## camo13 (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm not trying to get abused here but is it possible that because of the scarcity of these snakes if someone were to come into possesion of one legally, they would keep it very quiet due to the high possibility of having the snake taken from them illegaly?
Just a point of interest i thought i would raise


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Ok i've found one article by Woinarski that adresses a 'decline' in oenpelli numbers. Here is what it says:

_'The total area of the western Arnhem Land massif is about 34 000 km2. Within this area, much of the habitat is probably unsuitable (insufficiently rocky or topographically complex). As a large solitary predator feeding on prey at relatively low abundance, its population density is probably generally low. There is some anecdotal indication of at least local decreases, possibly associated with illegal collecting in the most accessible sites. There is also some possibility of decline associated with changing fire regimes.

Accordingly, the Oenpelli python may be classified as Vulnerable (under criterion C2a(i)) due to:
• population size estimated at fewer than 10 000 mature individuals;
• continuing decline, observed, projected or inferred, in numbers of mature individuals; and
• no subpopulation estimated to contain more than 1000 mature individuals.

The evidence for decline is admittedly scant, circumstantial or conjectural, and there is no information available on population substructure.'_ _'Oenpelli Python, _Woinarski, 2006, http://www.nt.gov.au/nreta/wildlife/animals/threatened/pdf/lostfromlandscape.pdf


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 30, 2010)

Just to clear up a few things (I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I'm at Mowanjum at the moment and only have limited access to a computer...)

I indicated in my posts that the NT doen't allow the RANDOM collection of herps for sale into the trade. There are ways of getting things you want, but it's not always easy, not withstanding Reedy's activities, and would never apply to oenpelliensis. Also, I pointed out that the decline in vertebrate biomass appears to have PRECEEDED the arrival of toads, and in an article I wrote for Scales & Tails last year, I indicated that much of the loss could be attributed to habitat change, resulting from invasive grasses and the consequently changed fire regimes, along with feral animals, including toads. If you read Woinarski's book, you would be aware of his concern about the desperate decline in the mammalian fauna in the top end in the last 20 years.

Overall, the fauna in the Territory is under enormous pressure from all sorts of influences. I think it would be naive to suggest that Morelia oenpelliensis is immune from these pressures - it lives in areas which may be difficult to access, and not much is known about it. Just because we have difficulty assessing population densities and changes in said densities, doesn't mean we should assume that all is well. Anecdotal evidence from several respected scientists and respected field observers tells us that all is not well in paradise...

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Just to clear up a few things (I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I'm at Mowanjum at the moment and only have limited access to a computer...)
> 
> *I indicated in my posts that the NT doen't allow the RANDOM collection of herps for sale into the trade.* There are ways of getting things you want, but it's not always easy, not withstanding Reedy's activities, and would never apply to oenpelliensis. Also, I pointed out that the decline in vertebrate biomass appears to have PRECEEDED the arrival of toads, and in an article I wrote for Scales & Tails last year, I indicated that much of the loss could be attributed to habitat change, resulting from invasive grasses and the consequently changed fire regimes, along with feral animals, including toads. If you read Woinarski's book, you would be aware of his concern about the desperate decline in the mammalian fauna in the top end in the last 20 years.
> 
> ...


 
If only the wider herpetological community knew the real state of collection in the NT, past and present. Honestly you would be disgusted.

I agree, there are alot of pressures from any number of issues on fauna across Australia and throughout the world. I have agreed that oenpellis are not immune to these pressures and that other native animals are under significant stress due to changing conditions. 

However that is not what i am calling you out on. You said oenpellis appear to be in greatly reduced numbers, their is no strong research or evidence to show that this is the case, if there is i have not seen it and from talking to Indigenous Elders they have told me that it is not the case. I'll admit i mis-read your post and thought you were saying that toads were having a direct affect on their numbers and most of my argument was based on that. So apologies to you on that point and i'll redirect at all others saying that toads are directly affecting them.


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## Nephrurus (Jun 30, 2010)

Mammals in northern Australia are in serious decline. What do Oenpelli pythons eat?


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## bluewater (Jun 30, 2010)

goneself said:


> Hey all- I've recently been offered a nothern territory rock python (liasis oenpelliensis)
> 
> Haven't seen any aound and just wondered if anyone here kept/bred/knew anything about them..


 
i know it's off the oenpelli topic, but keeping and breeding australian pythons also uses the name "rock python" for the pilbra olive python


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## AUSHERP (Jun 30, 2010)

i think if a few pairs were collected we could see something like the RSP saga again which IMO would be more beneficial than detrimental


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

I feel this is beginning to get silly and both sides of the argument are going to begin clutching at straws. So here is my frst straw.

Neph not all mammals are in decline in Australia. Infact some mammals are in their highest numbers since the 70's. I am of course talking about ferals, such as rats, mice, cats etc etc. Many feral introduced species make perfect dietry replacements for the natives that have been displaced by them. 



Nephrurus said:


> Mammals in northern Australia are in serious decline. What do Oenpelli pythons eat?


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## Jordan-Kola (Jun 30, 2010)

mmm... I could be wrong but in 1995, wasn't there like... a very small amount of roughscales in captivity... it takes time for any new species to be available to every one in captivity... 

anywhom...


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## AUSHERP (Jun 30, 2010)

i don't know what you mean jordan? it would take time but we have to start somewhere. @ waruikaz i think the ferals would be a fine dietary supplement , i think the problem is not in diet but in habitat, we have pushed every animal on earth to live in remote areas, i dont know what the human race expects when all we do is destroy nature.


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Again i'll ask where is the evidence that the escarpment country has been significantly affected by habitat destruction? 

North of the escarpment country there is a small cattle farm on the flood plain. To the west there is jabiru and the uranium mine and then to the east is the old Narbalek mine. There is also concern about the possible changed burning regimes. If you ever get the chance to have a look at the escarpment country you'll see how difficult it would be to use the land and how much it is in good condition.



AUSHERP said:


> i don't know what you mean jordan? it would take time but we have to start somewhere. @ waruikaz i think the ferals would be a fine dietary supplement , i think the problem is not in diet but in habitat, we have pushed every animal on earth to live in remote areas, i dont know what the human race expects when all we do is destroy nature.


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## guzzo (Jun 30, 2010)

I have flown into Oenpellie on a few occasions during the wet season and am always amazed of the vastness of the land. If you see the escarpment from the air you would soon realize there could be a T REX living in there and no one would ever know. As for food....If there are any flying fox collonies like there are in Jabiru in the area( and I am sure there are )....that food supply alone could sustain hundreds of these pythons.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here Gordo - I'm a long way from my reference material and will be till I return home to NSW next week. Be assured I wasn't suggesting you were wrong with the statements you made, just suggesting that the changes we have wrought on the country go very much deeper than our superficial perceptions allow us the see, at least in the short term (which may be a human lifetime).

When I get home I'll have a look and see where I got the info from.

Good discussion though...

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm looking forward to it! I do enjoy a good bit of evidence based banter lol.

Ps. Your PM box is full.


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## iamheretic (Jun 30, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> i don't know what you mean jordan? it would take time but we have to start somewhere. @ waruikaz i think the ferals would be a fine dietary supplement , i think the problem is not in diet but in habitat, we have pushed every animal on earth to live in remote areas, i dont know what the human race expects when all we do is destroy nature.


 
Look this up in wikipedia *VHEMT* 

Good theory, probably never going to happen though.


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## Dukz13 (Jun 30, 2010)




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## greeny1 (Jun 30, 2010)

the oenpelli python is a sad story and a huge mistate that people now need to realise where we went wrong and move forward, exactly as jordan kola said, the rough scaled pythons were in the same state as the oenpeliis and now they are everywhere in captivity, DECCW need to give someone like wiegel permission to let them capture thee animals from the wild and get them into captivity. really this is a concern to me as far as DECCW go. Kruass's oenpeli's should never have been taken from him, esspecially as he was just getting them to breed.


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

What? lol

What is sad about their story?



greeny1 said:


> the oenpelli python is a sad story and a huge mistate that people now need to realise where we went wrong and move forward, exactly as jordan kola said, the rough scaled pythons were in the same state as the oenpeliis and now they are everywhere in captivity, DECCW need to give someone like wiegel permission to let them capture thee animals from the wild and get them into captivity. really this is a concern to me as far as DECCW go. Kruass's oenpeli's should never have been taken from him, esspecially as he was just getting them to breed.


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## greeny1 (Jun 30, 2010)

that the posability of them becoming into captivity was lost, do you find it a joyful story do you? I am not saying that they wont ever come into captivty just for now it doesnt seem like it. well legally that is


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Righto i get what ur saying. I actually get more enjoyment out of seeing these animals in the wild than behind glass walls, so the fact that they are not in the pet trade does make me atleast a little happy because it makes the ilegal trade in them just that little bit more diffficult and less lucrative. 



greeny1 said:


> that the posability of them becoming into captivity was lost, do you find it a joyful story do you? I am not saying that they wont ever come into captivty just for now it doesnt seem like it. well legally that is


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## Kenshin (Jun 30, 2010)

they got bred in canada years ago


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jun 30, 2010)

Theres plenty of snakes that arnt in captivity, its not that sad.
Native mammals might be in decline but feral animals have taken their place as the food source.
Cane toads havnet affected them seeing as they live in to different habitats.
And there is no real evidence that they in decline.
Not very sad at all


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## greeny1 (Jun 30, 2010)

yeah i much rather seeing them in the wild to waruikazi, and i get where you are coming from aswell, but if their numbers are on the decrease in the wild it would be good to at least have some oenpeli's somewhere, i would rather have them behind glass than not have them at all. would be great if someone could start a conservation part for them. breed them in cativity and release them in the wild again, but first we would need to fix the reason they are on the decline. 
sorry if it looked like i was having a go at you mate
greeny


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Nah man i didn't think you were having ago, i just didn't quite get you first up. That is definatley one idea that could be used for a management plan for this species.



greeny1 said:


> yeah i much rather seeing them in the wild to waruikazi, and i get where you are coming from aswell, but if their numbers are on the decrease in the wild it would be good to at least have some oenpeli's somewhere, i would rather have them behind glass than not have them at all. would be great if someone could start a conservation part for them. breed them in cativity and release them in the wild again, but first we would need to fix the reason they are on the decline.
> sorry if it looked like i was having a go at you mate
> greeny


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## greeny1 (Jun 30, 2010)

unfortunately the money to pay for it will have to come from someones pocket, doubt the government would do anything to help.


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## Kenshin (Jun 30, 2010)

greeny1 said:


> unfortunately the money to pay for it will have to come from someones pocket, doubt the government would do anything to help.


 
sure they will they would take the money required for the animals!


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## DanN (Jun 30, 2010)

Hi Guys,

I am interested in what Waruikazi and Jaime have to say. 

Surely, we have absolutely no idea about the status of wild Oenpelli's? I spent many years visiting places in Kakadu and adjacent Arnhemland. Never once did I come across an Oenpelli. 34,000 km2 is a huge area, and while this species may not occur throughout, locational data places them as occuring at the northern and southern extremities of the sandstone country.

I find it unlikely that Cane toads would have a dramatic effect on this species. Neonatal Oenpelli's are the largest of all Australian pythons, easily large enough consume rodents, and, as with most pythons, likely showing a preference for lizards as oppose to frogs. A reference was made to juvenile green pythons eating frogs, yet there is no evidence of this and while it may be case, toads have occured throughout the range of green pythons for the last 10 years and this species is still found is very high densities. 
Oenpelli's are no doubt one of the apex predators in the sandstone country. They are large, long lived, eat infrequently and therefore, would be few and far between without any impact from toads. 

As has been mentioned, the greatest threat to this species is likely inappropriate fire regimes, in which case, they have probably been declining since the arrival of the Aborigines.

I would be very interested to hear any hard evidience regarding the status of this species.

My 0.02 cents.

Dan


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Sounds like a wicked PHD topic. It would be great if someone could do it.


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

It would be good to get the facts.

cheers
Scott


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## Elapidae1 (Jun 30, 2010)

DanN said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am interested in what Waruikazi and Jaime have to say.
> 
> ...



I suggest that Aboriginals are not the sole reason or the greatest cause of change in fire regimes in the NT, this just happens to be the more common belief. Lightning strike is the most common cause of wildfire in the NT and the intensity of fires far greater due to exotic weeds. This has a huge effect on the enviroment because flora that would usually recover from less intense fires or actually require less intense fires for germination are unable to survive the impact. Our native plants have adapted exceptionally well to fire, even to the point where trees drop leaves and dead wood in a fashion that assists burning. The introduction of plants that burn faster and more intensely has upset the balance of this adaptation


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 30, 2010)

The nature of fires in the NT has changed dramatically since the pastoral industry started introducing exotic grasses as fodder - gamba grass is a great example - they are far more frequent and far more intense, to the point where soil can actually be sterilised by the intensity of the heat, and when this happens on an annual basis, there is no ability to recover.

I don't believe that it can be 'business as usual' for any major top-end vertebrate at this point in time - the spin-off effects of the issues raised in this thread will be too great in the medium to long-term.


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## Bushfire (Jun 30, 2010)

What exactly happened to the ones that were declared in the NSW 1996 - 97 amnesty? Or was it all just a grab for paperwork for imaginary snakes.


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

I didn't know any were declared. Do you know of some that were?


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## Bushfire (Jun 30, 2010)

Im certain there was at least 2 declared, but wondered if these were existing animals or not. At the time I know alot of people were declaring imaginary snakes/reptiles to get the paperwork and then collecting them at a later date, this seemed to be a real common practice at the time. DECCW from my understanding were resisting getting them on the system same with the Rough scaled pythons supposely declared at the time too. Maybe when the officers came around to inspect them these snakes magically died and bodies already disposed of. I was hoping someone here may know the story.


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## -Peter (Jul 1, 2010)

I am heartened to see that the future of the Oenpelli python is so assured. I had no idea the number of experts we had in the community though I must admit to not being overly surprised. Still, an informative thread overall even if it started from a mistake.


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## DanN (Jul 1, 2010)

Dear Peter, 

Without re-reading, to my memory this thread makes no claims assuring the future of this species. What does need to be pointed out is that there is a *****ide to every coin. Without adequate data, we cannot infer any status on Oenpelli's. There is not a single shred of evidence pointing to a decline in this species and, given what we can infer of the species general ecology, introduced toads and small pop. size are not necessarily terrible.

I do agree with the earlier points, introduced weeds etc leading to altered fire regimes would, in my opinion, be the greatest known threat to this species.

Dan


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## -Peter (Jul 1, 2010)

Dear Dan, ?????????.Your response really puts some lead in my musket.


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## waruikazi (Jul 1, 2010)

Dear -Peter, 

Are your being fecitious? If so, why?

Love from Gordon


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## WombleHerp (Jul 1, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Dear -Peter,
> 
> Are your being fecitious? If so, why?
> 
> Love from Gordon



:lol:


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## GeckoJosh (Jul 1, 2010)

goneself said:


> Hey all- I've recently been offered a nothern territory rock python (liasis oenpelliensis)
> 
> Haven't seen any aound and just wondered if anyone here kept/bred/knew anything about them..


 So when are you getting your new snake?


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## AUSHERP (Jul 1, 2010)

were you in fact offered an oenpelli? do you have any photos or some sort of evidence that it is an oenpelli and have the people who offered you claimed it to be legal? i for one would llike to know if there are any on paper????


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 1, 2010)

Dear Dan,

I can report that, anecdotally, there ARE reports of a decline in the apparent numbers of oenpelliensis, from field people who have spent decades in the area, observing the decline of many species during that time. One, in fact, is a member here, although I've not seen him online in recent days.

Why the strident tone of your note here? I still prefer to listen to the opinions of professional people who have been making field observations over the past 2-3 decades, whether or not the info is in hard-copy. You have 'inferred' that their population size is small - on what basis can you make that assumption without 'adequate data'?

Jamie.


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## DanN (Jul 1, 2010)

Dear Jaime and Peter,

It was not my intention for the response to have a strident tone - please accept my apologies.

I too like to listen to those that have significant experience in an area. My assumption of a small pop. size is exactly that - an assumption. My point was that we cannot assume the species is under threat (just as we cannot assume they are thriving) without "adequate data". From what I know (which may not be much), I would assume that toads would not have a significant impact on this species. That is my opinion, based on my assumptions, and, could be 100% wrong - but who knows?

Finally, (and please don't think I am being argumentative for the sake of it) while I respect the anecdotal reports of the likes of Greg Miles, Ian Morris and others who have spent considerable time in the area, I find it hard to believe that these reports are worth a whole lot unless these folk have been putting transmitters into the snakes, as to the best of my knowledge, they weren't exactly common before the arrival of toads.

That is of course my opinion. In summary, I am not claiming anything outrageous, well, no more outrageous than assuming a drastic decline in Oenpelli pythons...

Dan


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## Gundeman (Jul 1, 2010)

I have worked around the western edge of the Arnhem escarpment on and off for about 20 years, including work on fauna surveys. The evidence for catastrophic mammal decline is overwhelming. As Nephrurus so succinctly pointed out, Oenpelli Pythons eat mammals, and mammals are declining, so it is not a long bow to draw to assume that as the food that they eat is no longer there, the pythons themselves are going to become less common. They have never been a common species by any measure, and as the country they live in is largely inaccessible, estimating population abundance even if they were common is going to be a difficult task. As for sticking radio transmitters on these snakes to learn more about them, that is a wonderful idea- unfortunately, I imagine the mountains of red tape one would have to carve through to undertake such a study (Northern Land Council for land access, NT parks for permit to interfere with native animals, Kakadu permit to conduct research in a national park, Animal Ethics approval to put in a transmitter, finding a vet that everyone is happy with to do it, compulsory involvement of Traditional Owners- and working out financial restitution to said TOs) even before you had found a snake makes such a study proposal close to la la land. I doubt that would happen. 

Native mammals are NOT being replaced by non-native mammals, and Cane toads, which are poisoning mammals that OPs feed on (quolls and phascogales) are also feeding on those animals that quolls and phascogales fed on. The hot late-season landscape-scale burns which are hitting the stone country where these snakes occur are knocking out the food plants for rock-rats, tree rats, and rock-ringtail possums. There is less food for these snakes and all major predators- it is that simple. 

Sadly, traditional owners in that area have lost a tremendous amount of traditional knowledge, especially with regards to the fauna of the stone country which is quite simply-hard work. If you have the choice between gong to the supermarket for a few kilos of beef, or going into the stone country (where it is often around 40 degrees C during the day) and climbing up and down boulders through hibiscus looking for protein- which would you choose? I only know one woman TO who I am confidant can distinguish between a Children's Python and an Oenpelli Python. 

I am opposed to the illegal, unregulated trade in reptiles, to the collecting mentality that sees these marvellous components of ecosystems reduced to their monetary worth or as tools to prop up fragile egos- but in the case of the Oenpelli Python, a captive population really does need to be put in the hands of our best and brightest breeders. A genetic database held by a government authority under the watchful eye of an impartial scientific body could be used to ensure outbreeding and to cross-check the legality of captive specimens to reduce poaching. 

Having seen an Oenpelli Python in the wild, draped over a Kombolgie Sandstone Boulder under an Allosyncarpia in my torchlight, I know I am one of the lucky few. I hope that same snake is still in the area where I left it untouched, and am concerned that such a snake may find its way into the hands of the highest bidder, without regards to its conservation, its cultural value or its intrinsic value as a top-order predator of one of the oldest environments in Australia.


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## Bushman (Jul 1, 2010)

Excellent post Gundeman! You a few others in this thread have brought great insight and common sense to this discussion.
So many other comments are highly speculative and mere conjecture.

P.S - The notion that native prey items can be readily replaced by the ferals that displace them (e.g cats) as sufficient prey for native apex predators is ridiculous.


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## -Peter (Jul 2, 2010)

Dear gordon, 
My initial post may have held some elements of fecitiousness but I was genuine in my comment that the thread was interesting and did arise from a mistake. I merely stated otherwise that there appeared to be many experts on the Oenpelli python. Possibly more than the number of known animals. 
As to my response to Dan. I felt his response to my post may have placed in firmly in the multitudinous expert category thus adding credence to my comment albeit that there are though several persons posting in this thread whom I hold in some regard.


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## AUSHERP (Jul 2, 2010)

if it was done right and how gundeman describes, a breeding project would be fantastic, what avenues need to taken to set something up? is it impossible? does anyone here know anything thats in the pipelines?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 2, 2010)

*Great post Gundamen*

Hello Gundamen,

Well said and I share your view up to a point. Maybe we diverge when it comes to captive breeding. You seem luke warm about it. I feel that it is imperative that the Govt. sponsors some of these snakes into a formal captive breeding set up. If Woinarski says that he does not know for sure what is going on with Nawaran's, but acknowledges anecdotal evidence of decline in the wild - that is enough for me. Imagine if it were your life savings in a bank with the Banking Regulator saying that "your money is now officially listed as 'Vulnerable' and that there is some evidence of decline in your savings. We don't know what is going wrong with your savings and all the other banks in your area are going down the gurgler." How would you feel? Would you say "She's right mate." "I will just leave it there anyway". "I won't reduce the risk by withdrawing some of my money and putting it into a safe deposit." As with the snake, what harm would be done in doing that? Even under the banner of the Precautionary Principle the right thing to do is to set up a breeding colony.

You need to consider 'harm done' if you do and 'harm done' if you don't. EG if the snake is going down the gurgler and you take some into a safe breeding setup - then would you not all agree that this is a good thing? On the other hand, if the snake is secure in the wild (but Woinarski clearly says that it is not - otherwise why would he have it listed as 'Vulnerable") then what harm would be doe by taking some into a safe breeding setup? None at all i would suggest. Now consider the potential 'harm done' if we do nothing!

Someone else said that captive breeding of Oenpelli's will encourage illegal activities. I don't accept that risk on 2 grounds - but I could be wrong - (1) there is nothing (apart from the Rangers in Kakadu who don't go out much at night) to stop poachers going out there and catching some snakes right now - if they can find any and (2) if legal snakes started popping up on the market then, whether they are legal or not is, in someways, less important than the other side of the coin which says that (if they do appear on the market) this means they are obviously no longer heading for total extinction. As a conservationist, I find it more worrying if no snakes are on the market at all at the same time as the pre-eminent authority J W. says that they may be in decline and should be listed as "Vurnerable"!

Finally Gundamen, how about looking at captive breeding this species from another perspective. How do you feel now about Egernia obiri? John Woinarski has classified it as "Extinct" and I believe this means totally extinct as I know of none in captivity anywhere. As you know, this big Egernia has the same distribution as the Nawaran. Do you think some of these should have been taken into safe custody for captive breeding or no? I know that ten years or so ago people were saying that there is no evidence of it being in decline, and where is it now? How do you think this magnificent, meaty Egernia would have gone into extinction if it was taken into captive breeding ten years ago?

Over to you.

Slickturtle


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 2, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> how about looking at captive breeding this species from another perspective. How do you feel now about Egernia obiri? John Woinarski has classified it as "Extinct" and I believe this means totally extinct as I know of none in captivity anywhere. As you know, this big Egernia has the same distribution as the Nawaran. Do you think some of these should have been taken into safe custody for captive breeding or no? I know that ten years or so ago people were saying that there is no evidence of it being in decline, and where is it now? How do you think this magnificent, meaty Egernia would have gone into extinction if it was taken into captive breeding ten years ago?



I think this sounds like a good point to me. But I have no expertise in the area. Just to clarify.

Also, *facetious* is a great word. But only if it's spelled correctly  

It's really easy to remember - it's the only work in the English language to contain all the vowels, in their rhyming order. See? *FACETIOUS - A E I O U.* (Sorry, I couldn't help it. Pet peeve. Back on topic.)


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## -Peter (Jul 2, 2010)

I question why a captive population needs to be placed into the hands of anyone. For what purpose? Reintroduction? Pet trade? 
I find most calls for captive populations rather dubious.

Kristy_07. Education is a great work(sic) too. It has all the vowels as well along with a few more

AUTOMOBILE
EVACUATION
REMUNERATION
REGULATION
MISBEHAVIOUR
AUTHORITIES
AUTHORIZE
AUTHENTICATION
PRECAUTION
MIRACULOUSNESS
MISDEMEANOUR
PREAMBULATION
AURIFEROUS
MENSURATION
TAMBOURINE
UNOSTENTATIOUS
UNOBJECTIONABLE
MULTIMILLIONAIRE
CONSEQUENTIAL
PRECARIOUS


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 2, 2010)

I can see two sides to this coin, and I lean towards the securing a captive population to ensure the survival of the species. However, I understand the sentiments surrounding the commodification of native species - I come from way back, with a museum background, so have never been enamoured with the notion of reptiles as 'pets' in the commonly accepted sense.

An excellent post Gundeman, I'm sure there are arguments both for and against, but I feel that letting something become extinct because we can't figure out an 'ethical' way of solving the problem is a bit like fiddling while Rome burns...

Jamie.


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## GeckoJosh (Jul 2, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> I think this sounds like a good point to me. But I have no expertise in the area. Just to clarify.
> 
> Also, *facetious* is a great word. But only if it's spelled correctly
> 
> It's really easy to remember - it's the only work in the English language to contain all the vowels, in their rhyming order. See? *FACETIOUS - A E I O U.* (Sorry, I couldn't help it. Pet peeve. Back on topic.)


 You do have a way with works Kristy :lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Slickturtle (Jul 2, 2010)

Gosh Peter, I did forget to say why! Why we should put them into captive breeding. 

Not for reintroduction - that probably won't work. No, not for people to sell, buy, trade, neglect and hybidise as pets, that is selfish and anthropocentric. 

I reckon we should do it because we are morally and ethically obliged to do so. These critters, along with their habitat, are in our care whether we like it or not. You could use your argument with indigenous people the world over. "If they are not up to speed in the modern world with all its ills - them let em sink." Why should we - the dominant race - go out of our way to save them?" This is Darwinism after all.

But I can't think like that. I can only think that being Human means being able to care about others including other creatures. I reckon that our planet and we, Homo sapiens, are dirtied every time another species goes belly up. After all it is our mismanagement of the place that is sending them down the gurgler.

Whew, that was a bit deep wasn't it? I promise not to do it again!!

Slickturtle



-Peter said:


> I question why a captive population needs to be placed into the hands of anyone. For what purpose? Reintroduction? Pet trade?
> I find most calls for captive populations rather dubious.
> 
> Kristy_07. Education is a great work(sic) too. It has all the vowels as well along with a few more
> ...


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## waruikazi (Jul 2, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Someone else said that captive breeding of Oenpelli's will encourage illegal activities. I don't accept that risk on 2 grounds - but I could be wrong - (1) there is nothing (apart from the Rangers in Kakadu who don't go out much at night) to stop poachers going out there and catching some snakes right now - if they can find any and (2) if legal snakes started popping up on the market then, whether they are legal or not is, in someways, less important than the other side of the coin which says that (if they do appear on the market) this means they are obviously no longer heading for total extinction. As a conservationist, I find it more worrying if no snakes are on the market at all at the same time as the pre-eminent authority J W. says that they may be in decline and should be listed as "Vurnerable"!


 
If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some. 

There are ways to have captive populations without them being in the hands of private keepers.

Oh and my favourite word is *Rythym*.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 2, 2010)

*A busy and good thread*

Hello Waruikaz

(1) My bet is that if they were available on permit that the Compliance people in Parks and Wildlife would take more than casual interest to follow the fortunes of the permit holder. Because he, she would be the only person in the world breeding, selling baby Oenpellis, each specimen would be traceable back to that one person. If a young one turns up in Sydney or Adelaide without a paper trail then it is illegal. 
(2) If people with a permit "go out poaching" -- good luck to them I say. It is highly unlikely that they would find any. In fact they will have trouble finding breeders under their permit. In addition I fail to see how they could declare a single young one - suddenly - without the evidence of a breeding/ egg laying story. In addition - they cannot sell a poached one (or a legally bred one) out of the NT without an Export Licence. Parks and Wildlife are not silly enough to issue that license without seeing the evidence of the full breeding sequence.
(3) Any person lucky enough to have a permit to collect and keep Oenpellis will have to be in regular and close contact with the authorities. A person who gets to this heady, trusted status in the eyes of the authorities is not going to risk it all by trying on some fumbling attempt at trafficking under the watchful gaze of the Compliance people.
(4) As you say, there are ways of having captive populations outside of private hands. BUT - most of these are last gasp, desperate attempts by state Governments to stop a species going belly up on their watch. They always leave it till too late and then dont have the genetic diversity to make the whole scheme viable. It can be hugely expensive to do these last ditch efforts. Alternatively, if you farm out the animals (before they become rare - such as the Oenpelli Python) to trusted Wildlife Keepers, as happened with the Naretha Blue Bonnet Parrot in WA and the Rough Scale Python, then the Government can get far greater genetic diversity out into multiple captive breeding situations at almost nil cost to the Government. Then - of course - as the animals breed and become more common the price comes down and it is no longer economically viable even for a Humpty Doo reptile botherer, to clamber around the Kakadu rocks at night trying to poach one. But, as long as they are rare and valuable then people are far more likely to do just that.

But that is just my take on it. I don't really know much about how the reptile world works. I have only ever had a 3 or 4 Oenpelli Pythons as pets. They are nice snakes though!

Cheers

Slickturtle




waruikazi said:


> If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some.
> 
> There are ways to have captive populations without them being in the hands of private keepers.
> 
> Oh and my favourite word is *Rythym*.


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## Gundeman (Jul 2, 2010)

*To Slickturtle*

Slickturtle, you have made an excellent point and your banking analogy has credit. I hope that it attracts interest. 

If I came across as being opposed to captive breeding, I assure you I am not. It is the unregulated traffic in herps and the threat of exotic species and diseases becoming established that are my main concerns. As a field herp I find the breeding of morphs ("pimp my snake") for status underscores not only the removal of these animals from the communities that shaped their morphology and pattern, but the removal of humanity from nature. Captive reptiles can play a fantastic role in education and appreciation of these enigmatic animals, but if the direction that the breeding programs takes is away from conservation and towards alienation, I think we have a problem. Nawarans of course are a spectacular snake, and as such, should a breeding program succeed, there could be plenty of money floating around for the offspring, some of which I believe could be skimmed into field research if the market was regulated- so captive breeding should be encouraged. 

That same point now most definitely applies to Bellatorius (Egernia) obiri- and I would like to point out that I have been saying the things are in decline for the past decade- in fact it was my correspondence with Woinarski regarding this that lead to the fieldwork that confirmed the species' decline. I concur that had a breeding program been set up for this species that a) they would be popular in collections and b) they would certainly not be extinct. 

I think the reality of Nawaran is that they are so thin on the ground that illegal poaching would probably only hit a small percentage anyhow given the inaccessibility of their habitat. So I agree that for that species poaching is not their greatest threat- but what a waste if those animals removed are not placed with competent breeders and you have such a high level predator removed from the wild. Having said that, not much is known about the ecology of this species in the wild, but it is known to aggregate- if such an aggregation were removed and split into individual snakes sold all over the world that could possibly be a much bigger hit to the population as a whole. I do support captive breeding programs of all threatened species, Working out how such captive breeding programs are regulated, who should be involved, how to set up genetic databases and pay for their maintenance, and how to "put back" what is taken are the next challenges.


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## waruikazi (Jul 2, 2010)

Hi Slick

Good post, it does make for a compelling argument. I agree with most of your points, parks would most likely be right ontop of those people who have the collection permits and they may even track the off spring. In a short term scenario i do agree with you. I'm thinking more of a longer term issue, but like most of this thread it is all conjecture.



Slickturtle said:


> Hello Waruikaz
> 
> (1) My bet is that if they were available on permit that the Compliance people in Parks and Wildlife would take more than casual interest to follow the fortunes of the permit holder. Because he, she would be the only person in the world breeding, selling baby Oenpellis, each specimen would be traceable back to that one person. If a young one turns up in Sydney or Adelaide without a paper trail then it is illegal.
> (2) If people with a permit "go out poaching" -- good luck to them I say. It is highly unlikely that they would find any. In fact they will have trouble finding breeders under their permit. In addition I fail to see how they could declare a single young one - suddenly - without the evidence of a breeding/ egg laying story. In addition - they cannot sell a poached one (or a legally bred one) out of the NT without an Export Licence. Parks and Wildlife are not silly enough to issue that license without seeing the evidence of the full breeding sequence.
> ...


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## Bushfire (Jul 2, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some.
> 
> There are ways to have captive populations without them being in the hands of private keepers.
> 
> Oh and my favourite word is *Rythym*.


 
With a paper trail comes a DNA trail. DNA cant lie, and any underhand activities quickly get founded among rare, high value animals. A perfect example of this is with the Black cockatoos breeders. If all the orginal pythons had their DNA sampled, you may try to fake a paper trail but you cant a DNA trail.

One of the greatest success stories have been the Rough Scaled Python. Its been breed to the point where I doubt any poaching occurs and has ensured that the species will live beyond any wild population crashes should they occur. Now if only we can convience John (or someone of similar experience) to take up this cause to establish a captive population. Im sure if $$ were the sticking point in the operation, there would be heaps of people wanting to invest in it. It would be a massive shame if we let another species suffer extinction when there is a cost efficent readily available way of establishing a brighter future for them. 

There are other ways of establishing a captive population than in private hands. But so far this isnt getting results. How long have the Territory Wildlife Park had their pair for? The results so far are speaking loud and clear. In private hands that pair did breed. That may be a little unfair to the park and their staff, who Im sure are trying their best but private individuals have had further more consistant results than most zoos when it comes to captive breeding.


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## cockney red (Jul 2, 2010)

goneself said:


> Hey all- I've recently been offered a nothern territory rock python (liasis oenpelliensis)
> 
> Haven't seen any aound and just wondered if anyone here kept/bred/knew anything about them..


 When you breed your Openilli snake next year, can I have a hatchling to keep my spotted company...:lol:
On a seriouser note, this is a quality thread, with quality input from informed people in the hobby. Its threads like this that keep me from imploding when I read the majority of threads, on a day to day basis.......


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 2, 2010)

In the longer term Gordo, it wouldn't be so critical - once the numbers are up in the hundreds, as is the case with the RSP, what is the point of tracking every animal. The energy and money spent by state 'authorities' in an attempt to track every Australian animal from birth to death, across decades, across multiple owners and across borders is simply an obscene waste of money and as far as 'conservation' goes, a total waste of resources. (That NSW even includes mixed-race Carpet Pythons in it's species list is a total mystery to me - what purpose does the gathered info serve?)

Certainly the compliance of those involved in any species recovery effort is important, but beyond a reasonable point, when a species is established in captivity, what's the point...

Jamie


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## Bushman (Jul 2, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some.
> ...


 
Bringing relatively rare species into captive breeding programs does not necessarily promote poaching. Indeed the opposite may be true or even a more likely outcome. There are some great and recent examples within the Morelia genus, one of the best being _M. carinata_. Although the price was initially very high for this species, after only a few short years of captive breeding there's been a considerable price drop. We've seen the same thing happen with native _M. viridis_. Due to the fecundity of pythons, their numbers usually increase exponentially in captivity. In other words, pythons usually have relatively large clutches and a high survival rate when in competent hands. 
This last point is a critical one for _M. oenpelliensis_. My understanding is that they're considerably more sensitive than other species within the genus. However, the same was/is often said about _M. viridis_ and sometimes about _M. carinata_, especially initially. With both of these precedents, the mysteries of their successful captive husbandry and breeding have been revealed in a relatively short period of time in good hands. The best hands so far have been those of Peter Krauss, although there's probably a small number of experienced herpers that would be just as capable. The responsibility of being first custodians of such magnificent species as these, is a great privilege and honour. 
A back-up plan for this species survival (and many others) is perhaps the noblest benefit of being given the privilege of being able to keep native wildlife. 
Do we want to go down in history as being the generation that sat by and did pretty much nothing as yet another priceless species disappeared into extinction like the Tasmanian Tiger?


----------



## bfg23 (Jul 2, 2010)

surely this is a gee-up


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 2, 2010)

Geckoman said:


> You do have a way with works Kristy :lol::lol::lol::lol:


 
Edit FAIL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

That's a good list, Peter. But none of those vowel words are in order. I always thought facetious was special for that 

And, Gordo, I like the word rythym, too. But I prefer it with an extra H :lol: We're not having the best editing day, you and me, hey, mate? :lol:

And, just so I don't look like I'm _only_ reading this thread to pick on people's spelling , I think that captive populations could be a really good idea, and perhaps the way to do this could be similar to the dog breeding world, where people need to be registered breeders of pure-line animals. It means that the people that would want to buy these animals as pets still could, but if you were breeding for the purposes of conservation and in the interests of a particular species, you would be a "registered breeder" of that species. Meaning that your animals would have higher quality status (like a dog "with papers"), and if selling offspring, could put higher prices to your animals. It would also likely be the case that the people willing to do this extra bureaucratic step would be responsible breeders, so if possible or needed, their animals could, more than likely, be used for reintroduction schemes if appropriate (though, we had already ruled that out, right?). 

It's only an idea, mind you, so no need to cry over it if you disagree. But I think that with sub-species like Oenpelli, and in the herp industry that is slowly but surely merging with the pet industry, that captive breeding programs that could be used to assist the conservation of the species (maybe, but it's better to try than not try, right?) could work successfully by modelling some of the successes of the pet industry.


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## Waterrat (Jul 2, 2010)

sub-species like Oenpelli? Kristy!


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## waruikazi (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm having a shocker of a week for spelling Kristy lol. Pretty ordinary of me considering i'm teacher too lol. 

Oh and i'll hit you with a correction FAIL, it's actually spelt rhythm with only one Y hahaha.

And just to be a knit picker and keep this semi on topic, Oenpelli's are a full species not a sub species.


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 2, 2010)

Dear All, (how did we get to DEAR.... but I like it)

This is the BEST thread I have read in so long, I am very impressed by the educated, concerned & learned opinions by the key posters...well done. this has made my week!
I have a very limited knowledge on this specie as most do, but I DO support and see the benefit of a captive breeding project and have personally purchased a pair of roughies from the likes of JW, who I support on his work and admire him and others I have met like him over the years...
Thanks guys...I truly appreciate the insight I have gained from this thread!

On a lighter note and something that may be funny to some who have a sense of humor... I was literally eating a packet of popcorn, which is the typical term used as a joke with threads like these as we all know, but I was eating it as it is a good source of fibre and one we usually keep for the kiddies, but Dad was enjoying with a Friday arvo beer....but after reading the riveting (no sarcasm or being facetious here) posts, I looked down after being so focused and I had popcorn all over my lap... it was like watching a movie that you are so into, you keep shoveling stuff in your mouth without noticing...LOL

Again thanks....


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## waruikazi (Jul 2, 2010)

I've sent a few PM's out asking this but i'll put it out thereand ask everyone.

If anyone has reference material (books, research papers etc) that relates to what we've been talking about either directly or indirectly i'd be really keen to hear about them. If you know any chuck us a PM.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 2, 2010)

That's capital 'M' for Morelia, Kristy... if we're going down that path...

J.


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## Waterrat (Jul 2, 2010)

and there is this button above that *italicize* scientific names. Cheers Kristy.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 2, 2010)

Gordo, do you have Woinarski's book, available from your Parks & Wildlife Service in Darwin?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 2, 2010)

That's capital _'M_' for _Morelia_, Kristy... if we're going down that path...

Damn you Michael... I was trying to be a smart alec...

Jamie


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## waruikazi (Jul 2, 2010)

No i haven't, what is it called? Is it 'Vertebrate monitoring and resampling in Kakadu National Park'



Pythoninfinite said:


> Gordo, do you have Woinarski's book, available from your Parks & Wildlife Service in Darwin?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 2, 2010)

No, it's about the catastrophic decline of species in the NT - I'm sure if you look for it in their publications list on the Parks website you'll find it. I had it within 4 days of ordering in NSW. The name escapes me at the moment, but Slickturtle will know. As mentioned I'm near Derby in WA atm, and out of my home turf. My brains are scrambled (more than usual) because it's Mardi Gras day in Derby, and I've been working 15 days straight...

I don't imagine Mardi Gras day in Derby bears any resemblance to the event of the same name in Sydney...

Jamie.


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## Gundeman (Jul 2, 2010)

There is a book called "Lost from our landscape- Threatened species of the Northern Territory" edited by John Woinarski et al- an excellent book- is that the one you're discussing before moving onto the gay pride of Derby?


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## waruikazi (Jul 2, 2010)

Thanks folks.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 2, 2010)

Hello Kirsty

Good point there about experienced keepers. 

Why don't you come to the herp conference in Cairns in October? I will be giving a talk there where I will be proposing a new top level rung in the Wildlife Keepers classifications. The new rung would be called Conservation Keepers and these are the type of people who will - in the first instance - be given rare or threatened species of birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians and fishes by the Parks Authorities, to breed in captivity as an anti-extinction strategy. These Conservation Keepers would be people like Jamie Stuart or John Wiegel or many of our other top people in the reptile world. They will work hand in hand with their state wildlife agency. Once these guys breed up a good number of rare animals they can then on-sell them to experienced Wildlife Keepers and so on - till eventually - there will be so many of these rare animals in captivity that just about anyone who can show ability, can have them, afford them. See Australian Herpetological Sysmposium

Cheers

Slick




Kristy_07 said:


> Edit FAIL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> That's a good list, Peter. But none of those vowel words are in order. I always thought facetious was special for that
> 
> ...


----------



## Slickturtle (Jul 2, 2010)

Comments like yours make threads like this worth while too Scott.

Slick



Southside Morelia said:


> Dear All, (how did we get to DEAR.... but I like it)
> 
> This is the BEST thread I have read in so long, I am very impressed by the educated, concerned & learned opinions by the key posters...well done. this has made my week!
> I have a very limited knowledge on this specie as most do, but I DO support and see the benefit of a captive breeding project and have personally purchased a pair of roughies from the likes of JW, who I support on his work and admire him and others I have met like him over the years...
> ...


----------



## Slickturtle (Jul 2, 2010)

I wrote a paper on initial feeding trials of a 4 meter one that I caught at cannon Hill in 1977. It was published in the ARAZPA (Aust, Regional Assoc. of Zoos and Aquaria.) technical bulletin. I don't have a copy as I had to bang it out on a stone tablet and photocopiers weren't invented in the Jurassic!! ARAZPA could probably pull it up from the ancient sediments though. This snake was the 3rd one known to whitefella science by the way. The first being found by Hal Cogger in 1971?, he identified it as a Carpet Snake (to his undying embarrassment). Brian Jukes - a school teacher from Oenpelli got the second (from which the species was described) and I got the third. I have a pic of it somewhere. How do you post pics on these fandangled forum things here?!!

Slick


waruikazi said:


> Thanks folks.


----------



## FAY (Jul 2, 2010)

A pic would be fantastic. Go to Post a thread...advanced.
It then says 'manage attachments'.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 2, 2010)

Thanks Fay

Here goes.

Slick


FAY said:


> A pic would be fantastic. Go to Post a thread...advanced.
> It then says 'manage attachments'.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2010)

Looks like your getting the hang of it now mate


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## cockney red (Jul 3, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Thanks Fay
> 
> Here goes.
> 
> Slick


 Thats a very slim snake, for its length Slick. Would you say this is a typical example ?


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## Gundeman (Jul 3, 2010)

Those are very small shorts for your length Slick. I'm sort of relieved these shorts are no longer common.


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 3, 2010)

What has happened with the Rough Scaled Python is a good example of what should be done for the Oenpelli Python .
But i seriously doubt the powers to be will consider this move and stabilise the Oenpelli Python as a species in captivity .
Best of luck to those trying to make it happen.
cheers
Roger


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 3, 2010)

I would like to say Thank you to all contributors to this thread, it is like a breath of fresh air in a stifled world. Thanks again to the real herpetologists 
Cheers
Sandee


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## AUSHERP (Jul 3, 2010)

that photo is amazing, its a real part of the animals history and you should feel proud to be a part of that. thanks for sharing, i did also think they would be thicker at that length?


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## FAY (Jul 3, 2010)

I am pretty sure that the oenpelli is a pretty slim snake.
From what I have heard, the aborigines discribed this python to Graeme Gow as a giant childrens python.


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## AUSHERP (Jul 3, 2010)

i would still like to hear from goneself the thread creator, he did after all claim to be offered one of these beauties????
i wonder if it was a sham or an illegal animal......


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 3, 2010)

Ahhh... back from the Derby Mardi Gras... Now Greg, I think you should present those gorgeous legs (and shorts, if you still have them in your wardrobe) to the adoring Derby crowd next year - how's that for an offer you can't really refuse??? I think Derby deserves a treat...

Back to the main discussion... I think Slickturtle's idea has a lot of merit - we've discussed this several times in the past few months. For a species such as oenpelliensis, which occurs on 'country', is the approach usually to the wildlife 'authorities' first, and the TOs second? I wonder if it might be better to go the other way - have real discussion with the TOs, reach an agreement in principal, and only then approach the Parks people. If you can get the cooperation of the TOs, it would add enormous weight to any case you may put up regarding collection of an initial breeding group.

I'm floating this idea without any idea of what has gone on, to date, in the Territory, so shoot me down in flames if I'm being silly...

Jamie.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 3, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Hello Kirsty
> 
> Good point there about experienced keepers.
> 
> ...



Thanks very much for this invitation, Slick. I'll PM you.

Cheers,
Kristy


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 3, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> i would still like to hear from goneself the thread creator, he did after all claim to be offered one of these beauties????
> i wonder if it was a sham or an illegal animal......


 

Or just a gee up that turned into a spectacular thread.

I have a small amount of info on M. oenpelliensis in Stephen Swansons book titled, A wild Australia guide SNAKES. It does state that a captive specimen laid ten eggs 116mm by 50 mm it does not say whether they were successfully incubated or not.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 3, 2010)

cockney red said:


> Thats a very slim snake, for its length Slick. Would you say this is a typical example ?


 

Hi CR

This one is pretty typical of the others that I have seen. Skinny, lean and long - and the snake is too!

They really show up a meal when they have had one! I wonder if they are designed mainly for a life in the caves (they have big eyes too) picking bats off the ceilings. This species of snake can reach out a very long way without support. Bent wing, Sheath tailed and Ghost Bats would be the perfect size for them. These bats are common enough up here in the stone country. Whoa up a bit - I don't know if they are *still* common up here? I don't know if John Woinarskis' people have been looking at the sandstone bat populations. There is too much that we don't know!!

Cheers

Slick


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 3, 2010)

There is a book called "Lost from our landscape- Threatened species of the Northern Territory" edited by John Woinarski et al- an excellent book-

That's the one - a real eye opener!

Jamie.


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## cockney red (Jul 3, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Hi CR
> 
> This one is pretty typical of the others that I have seen. Skinny, lean and long - and the snake is too!
> 
> ...


 Thanx mate :lol:


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 3, 2010)

That is a superb looking animal, it would be devastating to see such a pretty large snake decline or not be studied and not have a captive bred program initiated due to politics and Bureaucracy!! My 2 cents..

I had an experience many years ago as an apprentice electrician and my tradesman wearing the said shorts was up a ladder above me....because these pants ride up after a few wears....i looked up to pass him a tool and his right cag was hanging out in the breeze. from that day on I never wore my short stubbies again...OR followed him up a ladder!!! lol


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## Waterrat (Jul 3, 2010)

Even the two captive and well-fed specimens that Peter Krauss had were long and thin. They wern't the easiest pythons to keep, I remember Peter going into a lot of trouble like daily UV exposure with MV lamp and a lot of fussing around to get them feeding regularly.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 3, 2010)

i looked up to pass him a tool 

Maybe it wasn't the one he was after?

J.


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## cockney red (Jul 3, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> i looked up to pass him a tool
> 
> Maybe it wasn't the one he was after?
> 
> J.


 Surely a shifter would fit most nuts....


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## Slickturtle (Jul 3, 2010)

Using lights would counteract my idea of this species being a troglodite.

I found these animals to be lackluster about eating too - until I found the right food - and then they were explosive, almost dangerous!!

Cheers

Slick



Waterrat said:


> Even the two captive and well-fed specimens that Peter Krauss had were long and thin. They wern't the easiest pythons to keep, I remember Peter going into a lot of trouble like daily UV exposure with MV lamp and a lot of fussing around to get them feeding regularly.


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## Waterrat (Jul 3, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Using lights would counteract my idea of this species being a troglodite.
> 
> I found these animals to be lackluster about eating too - until I found the right food - and then they were explosive, almost dangerous!!
> 
> ...




Something to talk about in Cairns in October - looking forward to it.


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## Kermit (Jul 3, 2010)

*Slick's Shorts*

Hello Slick, 

Does Jane know you are putting pictures like that out to the public.

Cheers
Kermit


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## Slickturtle (Jul 3, 2010)

Kermit said:


> Hello Slick,
> 
> Does Jane know you are putting pictures like that out to the public.
> 
> ...



Hi Kermit

No she doesn't! And she certainly would not approve of me putting this one up. This is even worse?

Cheers

Slickturtle


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2010)

haha you just like showing them things off slick

at least your wearing boots while playing with those ones


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## Bushman (Jul 4, 2010)

*Duty of care*



AUSHERP said:


> i would still like to hear from goneself the thread creator, he did after all claim to be offered one of these beauties????
> i wonder if it was a sham or an illegal animal......


 I too would like to hear from 'Goneself'. I sent a couple of polite PM's inquiring about the Oenpelli offered to them and haven't been given the courtesy of a reply. I know that he/she is following this discussion, so will probably read this. 

Perhaps 'Goneself' accepted the animal and is now trying to keep it to themselves, which is understandable _if_ it was legally acquired. They're certainly very rarely, if ever offered for sale. 

Goneself, make sure that you look after it well if you do have it in your custody. If not, the animal deserves (and needs!) to be in the _very_ best of hands, which is unlikely if a poacher still has it.


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## AUSHERP (Jul 7, 2010)

yeah goneself sorta disappeared hey? i wonder......

@ slickturtle would troglodytes not bask at all?


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## cockney red (Jul 7, 2010)

goneself is a wind up merchant....or a bovine excreter,,,,,


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## Colin (Jul 7, 2010)

I was chatting with a Queenslander the other week on Face Book and they mentioned they had a rock python.. oenpelli or african rock python I enquired  turned out to be an "antaresia" :lol:


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## cockney red (Jul 7, 2010)

Colin said:


> I was chatting with a Queenslander the other week on Face Book and they mentioned they had a rock python.. oenpelli or african rock python I enquired  turned out to be an "antaresia" :lol:


 I.ve got Afrock, its a little off the shoulder number....


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 7, 2010)

cockney red said:


> goneself is a wind up merchant....or a bovine excreter,,,,,



Now that would be painful.....:cry:

I do like that second pic slick, the backdrop and colours are awesome...any more pics you can post, either of the animal in question more so, or any others that you have taken in that wonderful part of Australia.... Start a new thread mate...


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 7, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> Now that would be painful.....:cry:
> 
> I do like that second pic slick, the backdrop and colours are awesome...any more pics you can post, either of the animal in question more so, or any others that you have taken in that wonderful part of Australia.... Start a new thread mate...



A new thread called, "What Herpers _Really_ Get Up To" :lol: That 2nd pic is a classic, mate!


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## AUSHERP (Jul 8, 2010)

Herpetology _seriously serious _stuff


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## Slickturtle (Jul 8, 2010)

Good question Ausherp. They probably would - Rock Possums come out and sit on rock shelves before dark. It makes sense, I guess, that a cold blooded reptile would come out and get warm on hot rocks before dark. I made some enquiries and nobody knows much about how the sandstone bats are getting on. The experts don't have any reason for concern apart from one little _Hipposideros stenotis_ 

Cheers

Slick



AUSHERP said:


> yeah goneself sorta disappeared hey? i wonder......
> 
> @ slickturtle would troglodytes not bask at all?


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## AUSHERP (Jul 8, 2010)

what was the concern with that bat? how long since you have seen oenpelliensis in the wild? are they abundant in the areas they are found?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 8, 2010)

*The old Slick and buddy*

Hi Scott

Well, the years have come and gone and shorts have changed and Slickturtle looks more like this these days:


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## Bushman (Jul 8, 2010)

Looking good Slick! Is that another _Pseudechis australis_?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 8, 2010)

Oh, the business about the bats was all about what is causing the massive decline in wildlife in the area where these snakes are found. We were thinking about what Oenpellis eat, as a clue to how they might be faring. It is a safe bet that little Oenpellis would eat cave dwelling bats. The snake is ideally shaped for a life in caves and so on. I asked the experts if there was any sign of bats going down the gurgler which might lead young Oenpellis to snuff out. But nobody knows. Here is an adult by Ian Morris (something to droop over!!).



AUSHERP said:


> what was the concern with that bat? how long since you have seen oenpelliensis in the wild? are they abundant in the areas they are found?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 8, 2010)

Was a Pseudechis australis!! They are pretty much a thing of the past up here now. That was a farewell shot. I miss them.


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## Bushman (Jul 8, 2010)

That's a damned shame! I assume that this is primarily due to invasion by ferals, esp. cane toads.:evil:

Thanks for posting that excellent portrait of an Oenpelli. Its presence on the thread completes an already great discussion on the subject. God I hope that this magnificent creature survives the undeniable pressures upon it.


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## AUSHERP (Jul 8, 2010)

wow!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 8, 2010)

Well... if we keep on doing what we've always done, we'll get what we've always got. If the 'conservation strategies' currently in place don't change (and change VERY significantly) the Oenpelli will definitely go the way of other larger vertebrates in this country. My belief is that it is clearly heading toward extinction - these things are so intricately meshed with their environment that they cannot cope with the huge changes being wrought by habitat change, toads etc... Bureaucrats will sit on their hands in every state in this country and allow these things to happen because they can't break the mould they were cast into. As has been mentioned countless times, the RSP is an exquisite example of what can be done to secure a species when it is placed in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. Of course, Peter Krauss was also likely to be a fabulous steward of this amazing species, but the law (in this case a very stupid law) prevailed, with the result that the species has never bred again. It's just humbug, plain and simple.

Wildlife authorities in this country are, truly, very much agents of extinction, I would argue moreso than the keepers and enthusiasts they persecute.

Greg, was your 'something to droop over' a Freudian slip???

Jamie.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 8, 2010)

I find conservation efforts interesting, and although I would hate to see the Oenpelli become extinct or any animal become extinct for that matter, I sometimes think to myself isn't extinction just part of nature taking it's course? Some will argue no that man is interfering with nature, but are we? Or a we just behaving as nature intended? like humans, and if we are, then aren't these extinctions just the natural progression of life on earth.


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## Waterrat (Jul 8, 2010)

steve, we do kind of stay in the way of natural processes. That is undeniable. Should we just let things go, then the first step should be close down all government wildlife agencies because they would be redundant. Kind if ironic, isn't it?


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 8, 2010)

That's my point, as humans acting the way we naturally do, are we standing in the way of natural processes or merely part of them ? I certainly don't think we should just let things go, as that would not be natural human behavior. It is in our nature not only to destroy but also to build and preserve. Anything that is lost or gained in the process is simply the work of nature.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 8, 2010)

steve1 said:


> That's my point, as humans acting the way we naturally do, are we standing in the way of natural processes or merely part of them ? I certainly don't think we should just let things go, as that would not be natural human behavior. It is in our nature not only to destroy but also to build and preserve. Anything that is lost or gained in the process is simply the work of nature.



That's a cop-out if ever there was one...

Jamie.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 8, 2010)

How so, it's merely a theoretical observation


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2010)

hahaha I dont care anymore so we should all not care and I wont feel so bad :lol:


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 8, 2010)

Extinctions have been part of life since before man, though nowhere near at the rate we are currently seeing, it has always been a fact of nature ,why is it any different now?


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## Darlyn (Jul 8, 2010)

So who has the captive Oenpellis?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 8, 2010)

Who is this Darlyn who brought the conversation back onto topic?!! We were having a great time 'out there' not talking about the topic! Well, to answer your question - I think the Territory Wildlife Park still has one. But no breeding prospects there.

Slick



Darlyn said:


> So who has the captive Oenpellis?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 8, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Extinctions have been part of life since before man, though nowhere near at the rate we are currently seeing, it has always been a fact of nature ,why is it any different now?


 
Hey Pythoninfinite, I think Steve is right up to a point . But the trouble is that when you start thinking about the big philosophical questions, things can easily get bogged down. 

Hey Steve - I wonder if we could look at your view from this point of view: we humans are so clever that we have put ourselves in reverse evolution i.e. the opposite to survival of the fittest. This is because we are coming up with all sorts of cures and vaccines for common human conditions which used to kill us. Now we can live through what used to be fatal conditions and breed - thereby passing on an inheritable weakness to our children and then they to theirs etc. Therefore I would argue that if we can play God with our own survival prospects, why should we deny other animals on this planet the same gift of our genius. Would you be Humanistically selfish and let them slide into oblivion whilst you rush off to the Doctor to get some life saving procedure or medicine for yourself? 

Geees that hurt!!! 

Keep up the wide thinking Steve, it tests us all.

Slick


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## Jonno from ERD (Jul 8, 2010)

Slick,

I've always had this slightly cynical opinion that I've kept to myself for obvious reasons...but when the miracle "cure for cancer" is discovered, we're all stuffed. As much as people dying sucks, it's kind of necessary for the rest of us to survive. 

Back on track though, apparently there was a collection permit issued to a private individual for 6 Oenpelli Pythons a little while ago. Anybody know any more?


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## kkjkdt1 (Jul 8, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Hey Pythoninfinite, I think Steve is right up to a point . But the trouble is that when you start thinking about the big philosophical questions, things can easily get bogged down.
> 
> Hey Steve - I wonder if we could look at your view from this point of view: we humans are so clever that we have put ourselves in reverse evolution i.e. the opposite to survival of the fittest. This is because we are coming up with all sorts of cures and vaccines for common human conditions which used to kill us. Now we can live through what used to be fatal conditions and breed - thereby passing on an inheritable weakness to our children and then they to theirs etc. Therefore I would argue that if we can play God with our own survival prospects, why should we deny other animals on this planet the same gift of our genius. Would you be Humanistically selfish and let them slide into oblivion whilst you rush off to the Doctor to get some life saving procedure or medicine for yourself?
> 
> ...



I think steve has a good point - until i read this.
now im confussed - o well more jack daniels for me.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 8, 2010)

*A good read about Oenpelli Pythons*

Hi all

Since there seems to be a hunger out there to learn more about these mystical snakes I offer you and article written in June last year by a mate of mine who lives in Darwin. 

If you read this you will know as much as anyone about this critter.

I have never uploaded a text file before so it will be interesting to see how it goes.

Cheers

Slick


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks.
Keep in mind we can only play God, we can't actually be god, therefore it is not within in our power to reverse it, the fact that man has been able to come up with cures and vaccines etc is purely a consequence of natural progression and our natural inclination to discover and move forward to invent and create and our naive perception that we have the ability to control everything (play god). I believe that everything on earth as it is now and in the next hundred years is nothing more than natural progression, we cant control nature because we are not above or better than it just part of it.

Personally it is my nature to want to preserve the Oenpelli python, however I'm not entirely sure it's for the sake of the python itself, but for the personal satisfaction of seeing it. 
When I go fishing in the same area I have done since I was a kid, I always leave saddened that their are fewer and fewer to be caught, I don't really care for the fish, just for the future generations that won't have the same satisfaction I did from catching them.
What truly motivates man to want to conserve? I think it is to satisfy himself, the fish and the python don't care,when they are gone they will be gone it makes no difference to them only to us because we have failed at being God


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## PhilK (Jul 8, 2010)

Jonno from ERD said:


> I've always had this slightly cynical opinion that I've kept to myself for obvious reasons...but when the miracle "cure for cancer" is discovered, we're all stuffed. As much as people dying sucks, it's kind of necessary for the rest of us to survive.


 If I could use Godwin's Law.. this is the same theory the Nazis had. Hitler had plenty of disabled/diseased people murdered to promote advantageous evolution and the breeding of better lines (much the same as you would cull bulls with deformities etc). His theory is sound but it certainly isn't very moral is it?

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks for the story Slick, a very good read, though I have always found Aboriginal names very hard reading


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 9, 2010)

Steve, in the purest sense, I understand what you are saying. However, humanity is accelerating extinctions (and as a consequence, accelerating it's own demise) because of its overblown sense of self-importance. We have moved well beyond reasonable, balanced and sustainable participation in the world biota and are turning the world's lands and seas into deserts.

Richard Ross, one of the first to write a book on python husbandry, and a pediatrician professionally, suggested that the huge improvements in pediatric medicine in the last hundred years basically writes a death warrant for thousands of species. Obviously it is not politically correct to say this is a bad thing, (who would want to compromise the health of their child if means can be found to avoid disease or death?) but the inevitable consequence is that the earth is becoming a monoculture. He has a photo of a huge fire burning in the Brazilian rainforest, and describes it, sadly, as a 'biological funeral pyre' - the same things are happening here in Australia.

You mention god several times in you post Steve - I don't believe in 'god', so I won't sit back and see what we humans are doing without at least commenting that, with our vast intellect and perceptive abilities, it is our responsibility and within our control to do something about it. I can't handball the problem to some 'higher authority" and say that what is happening is what was meant to be. The introduction of Cane Toads into Oz is not something I will ever accept as a 'natural progression into extinction' for Australian fauna.

Jamie


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 9, 2010)

I can't accept that Cane toads in Oz are anything but a natural progression into extinction for Australian fauna, as they were introduced as a direct result of mans natural desire to improve on something he had already started.
I agree that humanity is accelerating extinctions, My argument is, that it's a result of natural human behavior and therefore only natural that some creatures will meet their demise by our actions. Sad as it is.
I am certainly not suggesting we just sit back and let it happen, but we do have to accept that sometimes and probably more often than not, once an animals demise has begun, despite the best efforts of conservationists, nature will take it's course.
I am all for conservation by the way and people such as yourself that are doing their part for conservation are helping maintain natures balance through your natural desire to preserve that which you deem important to yourself and to our future generations.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 9, 2010)

I'll ponder this for a while today - have to do a bit of work! Back later...

J


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## Waterrat (Jul 9, 2010)

Steve, in your fist sentence, you're saying that the introduction of cane toads was human desire to improve ... in other words - interference with ecology. Then you go on saying it's in human nature to do such things resulting in natural extinctions. I don't see anything natural in any of it. 
We, humans are nothing more than advanced vertebrates (unless god comes into the argument) sharing the planet with the rest of "us". Our ability to think put us on the top of the heap - the very heap we are very good at eroding.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 9, 2010)

Steve & Michael - I think that you're both right. Or at least, you both have points that contribute to my point of view (which is right, I'm sure of it ). 

Because humans are only advanced vertebrates, we are naturally inclined to treat our resources exactly as any other vertebrate - gorge ourselves in times of plenty. The problem is, because of our advanced thinking-power and problem-solving skills, we see the resources of our entire planet as our "time of plenty", and are naturally inclined to take what we can. We care more about our own self-preservation and improvement of our living conditions than we do about interfering with ecology. But, how does this make us different to any other species? It doesn't! 

Apes, snakes, wolves, birds... none of them care about the state of the planet or whether they should take the environmental moral high-ground before they do what's necessary for their survival. That's a standard that humans place on ourselves. 

Michael's right - it's our advanced ability to think that has caused such an imbalance in using the earth's resources, and that we are just another species of vertebrate. But, BECAUSE we are vertebrates, (Steve's right, too) we are naturally inclined to do what vertebrates do and use our resources to survive and improve our own lives, including interfering with and destroy our own ecology. Hope that made sense


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## Waterrat (Jul 9, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Apes, snakes, wolves, birds... none of them care about the state of the planet or whether they should take the environmental moral high-ground before they do what's necessary for their survival.


 

I agree. However, other vertebrates, even the top predators don't have the ability destroy their environment so fast and so much as humans can. Dinosaurs didn't go extinct because they eat all there was to eat or because they polluted their habitats. The birds on Guam disappeared because humans introduced brown tree stakes - it happened frighteningly fast.


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## jahan (Jul 9, 2010)

Hi Slick, In 1989 2 healthy neonates were hatched. Do you know if they are still alive?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 9, 2010)

I can see a bit of Steve's reasoning, but if you followed it to the end point we wouldn't even have steering wheels in our cars because wherever it goes is where it is meant to go - just turn it on and hope for the best... To me, it seems to be simply a fatalistic approach, whatever you do is OK because that was the way it was meant to be.

We are only participants in a big and complex environment, where all species are irrevocably meshed together. Animals have become (gone?) extinct for reasons other than human influence, and will continue to do so, but the decline in species, caused by our poor stewardship of the planet, has been catastrophic in recent decades. To throw your hands in the air and suggest it's OK because it is a continuing natural event is the cop-out I was referring to earlier. I would sooner acknowledge some responsibility for what we are doing wrong and try to rectify the situation.

The car is heading for a cliff, why try to turn the steering wheel (because it was meant to be so)... I don't think so!

Jamie.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 9, 2010)

No. I don't know anything about them. I even lost track of the sequence of events concerning the ones that Peter Krause had.

You could tell me more about this than I know. Living so long up here can put you out of the picture in other areas.

Cheers

Slick



jahan said:


> Hi Slick, In 1989 2 healthy neonates were hatched. Do you know if they are still alive?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 9, 2010)

*From the canberra Times*

Hi Steve - Slick again

I attach an article that was published in yesterday's Canberra Times. This is one of the early signs that scientists are saying what Pythoninfinite, Bushman and Waterrat and others are saying. Generally scientists don't say much because its not 'their brief' or, often they are in the pay of the very agency that needs criticising. Also, scientists are inherently cautious people.

What this guy is saying about mammals also applies equally to all the vertebrates. He is emphasizing mammals because that is where his research lies.

The point of this Steve is that in a sense it don't matter if this is a natural progression or not. It is a matter of how much loss you and I can live with before we feel sick! This article tells you (and the story is the same up here) that our wildlife is going so fast that your children and great grand children ain't gonna see much Aussie wildlife at all, except in picture books. UNLESS, people like you and I embrace and fight for captive breeding of our best and rarest. So this is being selfish (thinking of you and your family) - but it is a good selfish as everyone is a winner.

Cheers

Slick


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 9, 2010)

Jamie, I have great trouble putting my thoughts and ideas into words, and as a consequence I feel you are missing my point. I do not believe we should just "turn it on and hope for the best" or "throw our hands in the air and suggest it's ok because it 's just an on going natural event" I agree that would be a cop out, but from a conservation point of view there will always be the people who wish to conserve, to the point of putting in considerable time and effort to achieve that goal. For the people that have been involved in bringing a species back from the brink of extinction, I imagine they would quite NATURALLY feel a great sense of achievement and joy at being able to preserve something that they feel is of huge importance to our existence, what a great motivator to conserve, and all because of one aspect or another of our human NATURE.
On the other hand there are people who put these creatures lower down the scale of importance and destroy habitat etc ,whether it be mining or farming these people are motivated by other NATURAL human emotions like success, or pride from the fact they have built something that provides employment etc, and therefore creates the means for others to survive in modern society. Again actions and emotions that result from NATURAL human behavior and instincts.
Then there will be the in betweeners those who care and don't act or those who don't really care either which way, however their behaviour is still natural because they are human after all.
So sometimes animals will just survive, sometimes they will flourish, and sadly others will perish and become extinct, all as a result of human behavior, if our behaviour is not natural then what is it?
Just to clarify I fall into the bracket of caring, but my actions are minimal, I would describe them as being preventative rather than pro active. However as I grow older I take more and more notice of whats going on, as naturally and I suppose instinctively I am concerned about the world my children will be left with.

I am not attempting to bring people around to my way of thinking, I'm just expressing my thoughts, and I personally have a lot of hope and faith in people. I certainly don't believe we are doomed and should just give up on the environment. I do however feel that often humans have to higher a belief in their ability to destroy and rebuild, nature will take care of itself and at the end of the day humans are the only ones that care. If and when nature destroys itself and mankind is extinct, will we sit back and say wow what did we do with this opportunity? No I don't think so, nature will have run it's course and we will simply cease to exist.


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## Waterrat (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't disagree with you steve, just like you, I am merely adding my opinion, using some of your expressions. LIVING IN MODERN SOCIETY is the key path to destruction of nature. There are human beings living in societies that practice sustainable living in harmony with nature, they have done so for millennia. Unfortunately they are becoming extinct one by one just like our fauna, due to the expansion of the MODERN SOCIETY and its greedy "nature". In my view, there is a difference between societies (and individuals within) that live NATURALLY and the MODERN SOCIETY that does live very unnaturally and individuals within have lost contact with nature. I don't see signs of evolution there though.


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## Sigourd (Jul 9, 2010)

steve1 said:


> I find conservation efforts interesting, and although I would hate to see the Oenpelli become extinct or any animal become extinct for that matter, I sometimes think to myself isn't extinction just part of nature taking it's course? Some will argue no that man is interfering with nature, but are we? Or a we just behaving as nature intended? like humans, and if we are, then aren't these extinctions just the natural progression of life on earth.


 Hi Steve. I have pondered such thoughts myself. Indeed species go extinct all the time. What is different is the rate of extinction is far more than normal background extinction, it is approaching the rate that saw the death of the dinosaurs. Never before has global mass extinction occurred due to a single species. Never before has the world seen a rate of species migration as we have now (Burmese Pythons in Florida, Brown Tree Snakes in Guam, Racoons in New Zealand and of course the invasive species we have here). These are not natural processes. I see where you are coming from and I know you are not suggesting that we let species go extinct. However I honestly feel that our intellect gives us a basis to decide what is our natural behavior.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sigourd good points, but once again I will argue that these are natural processes because they have resulted from natural human behaviour, our intellect may influence how we interact and react to nature, it is however in my opinion impossible to decide our natural behaviour because our behaviour is governed by nature.


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## Waterrat (Jul 9, 2010)

steve1 said:


> our natural behaviour because our behaviour is governed by nature.



By nature or by society pressures?


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 9, 2010)

Waterrat, I have at different stages in my life pondered over the idea of living in such a society , the simplicity and peace of living in harmony with the rest of nature, I imagine most have pondered over this at some stage, Is it because we sincerely yearn to live this way or because our modern lives are sometimes to difficult. Why do you feel it is unfortunate that these society's are becoming extinct? is it because they serve as a reminder of where we have come from? or is it just that you feel like something else has been lost through man kinds greed? do you see them as being somehow different than yourself? Do they offer you a moment of escapism from the daily grind? Or are you saddened by the difficulty these people face when they come up against the modern world? Please don't take offense to this, but I suspect the only reason you care that these society's are in decline, are the same reasons it bothers you that the Oenpelli python may be in decline, that reason being that you or your future generations will somehow be worse of when they are gone.
I still don't believe that a suitable argument has been put forward that would suggest humans are behaving anything but naturally, I don't believe we have lost contact with nature, just that our ability to reason and think for ourselves allows are to perceive that we are somehow above it.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 9, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> By nature or by society pressures?



Whats the difference


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## Waterrat (Jul 9, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Waterrat, I have at different stages in my life pondered over the idea of living in such a society , the simplicity and peace of living in harmony with the rest of nature, I imagine most have pondered over this at some stage, Is it because we sincerely yearn to live this way or because our modern lives are sometimes to difficult. Why do you feel it is unfortunate that these society's are becoming extinct? is it because they serve as a reminder of where we have come from? Yes, they are like museums now. or is it just that you feel like something else has been lost through man kinds greed? Most definitely, a lot has been lost though greed, just look around, our Cape York is going to be mined, oil pollution on the US, the list is endless. do you see them as being somehow different than yourself? Very much so, I would feel ashamed as a human being standing in front of these magnificent peoples. Do they offer you a moment of escapism from the daily grind? Not really, I can't reach them for there are so few left. Or are you saddened by the difficulty these people face when they come up against the modern world? That too, mainly because they had OUR religion trusted upon them. Please don't take offense to this I don't , but I suspect the only reason you care that these society's are in decline, are the same reasons it bothers you that the Oenpelli python may be in decline, yes, beautiful things that comprise this world we're living in are disappearing. that reason being that you or your future generations will somehow be worse of when they are gone. Of course they will be worse of - what kind of logic is that?
> I still don't believe that a suitable argument has been put forward that would suggest humans are behaving anything but naturally, I don't believe we have lost contact with nature, really? You must be blind - please no offence but this statement is just way off the mark. Ask your average person in the street what is Oenpelli python and enjoy the blank faces - that is detachment! just that our ability to reason and think for ourselves allows are to perceive that we are somehow above it.




cheers for now.
Michael


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## Bushfire (Jul 9, 2010)

I think if you ask the average person on the street about many things about nature you'll get blink looks because generally speaking the average person doesn't know and doesn't care. Its the biggest problem with any conservation effort, how do you get the public to care enough to actually do something about it. Unless somehow it is discovered the Oenpelli python has some magical cure for cancer or lays golden eggs, you aren't going to generation much interest at all. People like to talk things up and generally agree in principle but when it comes down to actually doing something or having them go out of their way for the benefit of the environment people don't do anything or find excuses not too. 

Future generations may well be worse off but again most wont really care. You look at what is already gone and ask anybody off the street and I bet most wouldn't miss it or even know about them and once they stopped talking to you they wouldn't give it a second thought for the rest of their lives.

Are they detached from nature? Depends on your definition. You may walk through a patch of bush and see weeds taking over not as many types of wildlife but the average person would probably think wow thats the way its suppose too be. They still like going away camping / visiting the bush ("getting back to nature") but they perceive themselves as above it. They would most definitely see a different nature than their grandfathers seen but they would still get the same sense of satisfaction from a visit.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 9, 2010)

It is hard to judge a persons tone through comments on a forum, but i feel I have somehow upset you. To tell me I must be blind and then just expect me not to be offended is a bit off the mark. My comment that I don't believe we have lost touch with nature, however is not off the mark, and until this thread was posted half the users on this forum would not have known what an Oenpelli python was. I do agree however that humans have become detached from some aspects of the natural environment, this however is mental and not physical, because no matter how emotionally detached from nature one becomes they still remain intrinsically attached in the physical sense. So therefore you still have not provided me with an argument that suggests in any way possible that we are behaving unnaturally. Our emotional detachment can be explained away quite easily by natural human behaviours. Please keep in mind that in none of my posts have I claimed that we are not responsible for the destruction to some degree of our natural environment. Our emotional detachment from nature, I think can be explained in that so many people including yourself seem to look at nature as if we are above it, looking down on it as If it was something that we are not a part of, but are the master of. Has the human race shaped our environment? or has the environment shaped us and the way we react to it both mentally and physically


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry Slick, I almost forgot to come back to this, as for how much I can live with before it makes me sick, well that point has long been and gone, and for the most part I feel powerless. I would love to see oenpelli's established in captive collections, It's just sad this is the only way we can be certain of it's survival


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## Bushman (Jul 9, 2010)

It's good to see this discussion and thread staying alive. It's broadened into an almost philosophical discourse about conservation and humanity, which is quite interesting. 
Although you say you struggle putting your thoughts into written words Steve, you're doing a good job. 
I wanted to add something to the discussion before but got pulled away from the computer. It was about *responsibility. *Since then the discussion has moved on and although you touched on it Steve, I think that this is the critical point here, rather than what is natural or unnatural.
As a staunch conservationist, I very strongly believe that _we_ are responsible for the mess that we now find ourselves in, as far as the environment goes. 
We tell our kids that if they make a mess, then they should clean it up! Are we so hypocritical that we don't do the same thing? 
We should be ashamed at what we've done to the planet as Michael (aka Waterrat) quite rightly says, standing in front of tribal peoples. As the ones "in charge", we have to at least try and put it right, or at least stem the flow and ideally heal and repair the damage that has been done. It's NOT too late and I for one, as I'm sure many others here feel, that we should do our _very_ best to fix things up. 
The Oenpelli Python epitomizes the plight of beautiful creatures that are fast disappearing before they've barely even been discovered. We know so little about these by all accounts magnificent creatures, it would be a real tragedy and damned shame to stand by and do nothing to help.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks Bushman, I think I have done alright also, but these posts have taken considerable effort for me, on average about 1and 1/2 hours each, LOL.
You are right we do have a responsibility to take action, As I grow older and watch my daughter grow, these things gather growing importance to me, though admittedly anything that I have done for conservation is small fry compared to the efforts of others. I hold a great many of these people in the highest regard, I love to see the passion displayed by people for the environment and our wildlife, as it is often a display of human nature at it's best and most selfless. As a kid I loved everything to do with nature but somewhere along the way it was lost, only to be rediscovered in the last couple of years. My passion is for reptiles I don't know why, I just love to interact with them, I love to come across them and look for them in the bush, and I guess it naturally goes hand in hand with wanting to protect the environment in which they live. One day I hope to find away to devote my working life to reptiles and the conservation of them and their environment, I feel that it's my responsibility to. The question is HOW? It's with growing frustration that my desire to do this, conflicts with the need to provide for my family


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## Slickturtle (Jul 10, 2010)

I too think this is a good airing of views ans all participants should be thanked for their thoughtfulness and civility.

But on a slightly different tack, I though you might be interested in the trouble they go to in the USA to reintroduce captive bred snakes to the wild. I have always thought that such an aim is a waste of time, but the Yanks are prepared to give it a go. The snake they are talking about is the Indigo Snake which is one of the bigger Rat Snakes. It is harmless but gets very big and is very strong. They were at Worrells when I worked there and they are a much more sensational snake than the attached item suggests. See

Outdoor News: How To Enjoy The Outdoors: The Eastern indigo snake


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks for the read, It's good to see that sometimes wildlife has a win.
I wonder if anyone knows of a case where an animal that has been reintroduced to an area in which it had become extinct, and has been so successful that it has caused unforeseeable consequences for other native wildlife?
Has any reptile in Australia that could be classified as being one of the top predators within it's habitat ever become extinct in recent times, say in the last century?


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 10, 2010)

very relevant to recent discussion on this thread, and food for thought

YouTube - The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See


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## longirostris (Jul 10, 2010)

I would like to congratulate all the participants contributing to this thread. It is probably the most interesting thread I have followed in the several years I have been watching these forums. So many interesting topics (philosophy, theology, ethics, conservation, herpetoculture) invoking many emotions in many of the thread followers I am sure. Certainly in my case anyway.

Many times during the discourse I have wanted to contribute but have found so many emotions and thoughts forming that I knewI would be writing an essay length post if I got into it. But I cannot help myself because of the quality of the thought processes going on here. 

I think Steve is right. He makes the correct point in my view that human beings are only doing what comes naturally to all species on this planet, trying to survive. Unfortunately and this point has also been made we have succeeded spectacularly at this, hence a population of some six and a half billion of us. I doubt there would be another vertabrate species on the planet with the same population numbers, not even rats and mice. The unfortunate part of our success has been the ever increasing destruction of natural resources for our food, clothing, housing, and over the last couple of hundred years or so to improve our quality of life by convering raw materials into products that many of us today could not live without. Motor vehicles, Television, computers, electricity, etc, etc, the list goes on and on. Tell me who among the readers of this forum would give up all these comforts for the sake of conservation. To make sure a species such as Oenpelli survives. In


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 10, 2010)

I know I wouldn't, I can't, I don't know how to survive without them, and therefore believe it would be a step backwards. As a race we need to find ways to lessen our impact and contribute to the environment whilst moving forward at the same time.


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## longirostris (Jul 10, 2010)

Sorry I accidently posted without finishing. What I was saying was, In truth, there would be very few if any that would be prepared to give up their quality of life for the sake of conservation of an environment or species. What difference has the disappearance of the Dodo or the Thylacine had on the lives of the billions of people who do not even know what a Thylacine was or perhaps is.

It is a sad fact that species extinction in some ways is unavoidable and is the natural order of things. Just as a giant asteriod was the cause of the last great extinction event on this earth, can we ourselves not be the very cause of the sixth mass extinction event that another intelligent species may look back to through the fossil record in 60 to 100 million years time. 

As a species we hold ourselves in very high regard, yet we have absolutely little thought for just how fragile our own tenure on this planet actually is. We could and very likely will be part of the next great extinction event that hits our planet, and in the distant future will we be anymore then what the Dinosaurs are to us today.

I doubt that there would be anyone of us that would not want to see captive breeding programs for all endeangered species on the planet. I think that the efforts that people put in to these programs are wonderful and should be supported at all costs. Channel the money being spent on military hardware into conservation and see what a huge difference that would make. I would cheers form the highest rooftops to see it happen as I am sure we all would.

But ultimately and in the end the efforts will be futile and count for nought because all species on this planet at some stage are destined for extinction, that is the natural order. We make way for the new. That is why we live and that is why we die.


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## AUSHERP (Jul 10, 2010)

we are not merely surviving as other creatures do, we are raping the planet. overpopulation is the problem, we wont let anyone die!! a brain tumour in nature would mean certain death as would something even as small as a sprained ankle but we humans, don't allow it. we chuck the sick on the backs of other humans and carry them until they get better, more people = less resources= a drive for "survival" and so the environment suffers, it may seem morally unsound and as an individual death is sad and horrible, but as a race on a full planet death is necessary.
the oenpelli python needs to be established in captiviy so yet another specie is not lost forever.


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## Waterrat (Jul 10, 2010)

longirostris said:


> I think Steve is right. He makes the correct point in my view that human beings are only doing what comes naturally to all species on this planet, trying to survive.


 

Thank you for your contribution longirostris, you brought up many valid points. One that I would like to comment on the the quote above. I find it hard to swallow that we, humans are merely trying to survive. Well, I survived last night by pealing tiger prawns, flushed down with NZ sav blanc, a nice deset, couple of burbs and I was in haven. Yes, I am a sinner! Animals do whatever it takes to survive for one and one reason only - to reproduce. Ironically, it seems that we are doing exactly the same, just look at the human population. Although we are just another vertebrates, our approach to survival is fundamentally different and so is our attitude towards nature. Whilst natural extinctions are driven by evolution, our contribution to extinctions through our so called "survival" has got nothing to do with evolution.
I think even us atheists wish for some God who would shout from the skies "stop breeding like rabbits you fools"!


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## imported_Varanus (Jul 10, 2010)

Or, "Have you learn't nothing from Easter Island"! 

As Governments and the human population in general dither and bicker about the latest wants, war or popular craze, I can't help feeling like we're all the proverbial "rat in a box" of finite resources, dissapearing at an ever increasing rate with an ever growing population. 

Just to let you know, I've got dibbs on the small, fat ones!!


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

haha Greg your not starting to enjoy this forum stuff are you?


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## AUSHERP (Jul 10, 2010)

thats right, we think this planet is vast beyond imagine but with 6 billion and counting, it's starting to feel mighty small! they were recently looking for water on the moon, on the moon i tell you!!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm still not convinced that humans only ever act 'naturally' and that what we are seeing is a result of natural, if changing, behaviours. I don't think the greed which is evident in humanity today was evident when we lived in caves and had to scratch for a living, and risk our lives every time we wanted to dong a Mammoth on the head - the risks involved in doing that meant that you only ever did it when you truly had to. Our use of ALL resources far exceeds our actual needs - we don't NEED 2 or 3 cars per household, 2 or 3 TVs per household, a huge wardrobe of clothes, 20 pairs of shoes (I have 2 lol)... but we have them because it is convenient and we have to LOOK like we're successful to feel successful - just staying alive another day is no longer enough.

A parallel can be made with what we do with reptiles - nearly all our (human) babies survive these days, especially the white ones, and with captive reptiles, all our captive bred babies survive as well, so limiting populations has to be a matter of CHOICE - the natural limiting factors such as disease, predation etc no longer apply. It is well known, now, that population growth is reduced where education is best - the most educated societies exercise choice in these matters, especially where women are well educated. Incidentally, we're (whiteys) doing a damned good job of stuffing up other human communities and wiping them out too.

I think that the greed we are seeing in much of the human population these days is much more an artefact of NURTURE rather than NATURE, and we are being driven by something quite different from the basic need to survive (we've solved that problem), which still remains the driving force for all other species.

Jamie.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 10, 2010)

EErr! Well, I guess it's not entirely what I thought it would be. But then I am an old codger and take a little while to adjust. But it is all good stuff and it has made me think a lot about my values and why I think the way I do. This is healthy. I will come back in when it gets back onto conservation of our rare reptiles.

But in short - it ain't that I don't enjoy. Anyway, it has cooled down a bit outside and I am going to go and fiddle with the turtle farm - I might have a swim while I am at it. If you want to see what my farm looks like, check it out at 

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

Cheers and keep it going.

Slick



Farma said:


> haha Greg your not starting to enjoy this forum stuff are you?


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## jahan (Jul 10, 2010)

Great photo`s Slick, thanks for sharing.Is that place called heaven?


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## Bushfire (Jul 10, 2010)

I would have to disagree with you Jamie. If we look at alot of tribual cultures you will find the same behaviours that we display including greed. If you go to alot of villages in PNG you will find that the wildlife within some kms of them are gone. In Africa, its natives doing the majority of the poaching these days. Closer to home, it was the aboriginal people that forever altered the environment to suit their needs causing untold extinction, we will never know the full exent. The bush and the wildlfie either adapted to their methods or vanished. This kind of greed you think is unnatual, probably started back when we started to be social creatures and placing individuals in higher hierachry. Back in the cave days if you had more food / furs you probably were deemed more attractive to females and more likely to have offspring that would survive.

The world may of changed we deem different things as status symbols but the behaviours are the same. We can even see similar behaviours in the animal kingdoms.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks everyone that has participated in this thread, I think however I am going to leave it at that, as far as the philosophical stuff goes. It's a good feeling that my thoughts have been able to evoke the response it has from some members, whether they were in agreement with me or not. Some of you obviously have considerable expertise in areas that concern our natural fauna and their conservation, and I am grateful for the fact you have taken the time to read, reply and even encourage me to voice my opinions and ideas. I am not accustomed to conversation and discussion on such in depth matters, and can not recall a time that anyone has encouraged it, so it means a lot to me.
As I have previously stated I find it quite difficult and time consuming to string these posts together, So I'm going to leave it at that before my wife causes me to be Extinct.

Great pics by the way Slick. Is this turtle farm a rehabilitation project?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't really have time tonight to go further here, but as far as natives doing the poaching is concerned, the end of line clients are wealthy foreigners where such things as ivory, rhino horn are concerned. Much of the loss of wildlife in PNG is due to the fact that under modern pressures, nomadic lifestyles have become necessarily sedentary. Worthy of further discussion, but not tonight for me!

J.


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## Matt-and-Jo (Jul 10, 2010)

well its a huge area arnhem land and a million spots to land a boat and they definitly swap reptiles for grog with indonesian traders thats a fact, oenpellis are most likely overseas in several collections and countless empty bottles littering arnhem land


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## Slickturtle (Jul 10, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Thanks Bushman, I think I have done alright also, but these posts have taken considerable effort for me, on average about 1and 1/2 hours each, LOL.
> You are right we do have a responsibility to take action, As I grow older and watch my daughter grow, these things gather growing importance to me, though admittedly anything that I have done for conservation is small fry compared to the efforts of others. I hold a great many of these people in the highest regard, I love to see the passion displayed by people for the environment and our wildlife, as it is often a display of human nature at it's best and most selfless. As a kid I loved everything to do with nature but somewhere along the way it was lost, only to be rediscovered in the last couple of years. My passion is for reptiles I don't know why, I just love to interact with them, I love to come across them and look for them in the bush, and I guess it naturally goes hand in hand with wanting to protect the environment in which they live. One day I hope to find away to devote my working life to reptiles and the conservation of them and their environment, I feel that it's my responsibility to. The question is HOW? It's with growing frustration that my desire to do this, conflicts with the need to provide for my family



Well Steve

If we ever mange to get some Oenpelli Pythons into a breeding scenario I can see a guy like you being an ideal person to take on a pair of young ones to breed the numbers up. One of the critical things about captive breeding for conservation is that we need lots of people to breed them to maximise genetic diversity. In this way you would be doing something to help conserve our reptiles. 

I reckon you would be a good candidate as your persona (as it comes across on the forum) is not dissimilar to that of the python. These are big snakes but the ones I have had, have avoided biting at all costs. They might struggle to escape the confines of your hands but they won't bite. These are gentle and thoughtful creatures - just like you!

Slick


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 10, 2010)

LOL cheers, One day I hope to be skilled enough to accept that kind of responsibility.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 10, 2010)

Hi Steve

Sorry to hear that you are bowing out of the discussion - but I fully understand why.

No, not turtle rehabilitation - instead, this is an exercise in Sustainable Use Of Wildlife. I sell the babies to anyone who can afford them down south.

The NT Parks and Wildlife appear to be better than most in Aus and have been very good to me in allowing me to set up the worlds only Pig Nose Turtle breeding facility.

But now that I have your attention - could I prevail on you to look at the big picture in a different way - and tell me what you think? (But if you don't want to, that is OK someone else might take up the following challenge):

You say that the extinction of animals is a natural consequence of humans behaving naturally and therefore extinction of animals and plants that get in our way is a natural event.

How about this then? The definition of a plague (as defined by the Oxford Dic. is *"An unusually large number of insects or animals infesting a place and causing damage: eg a plague of locusts."*

Plagues of locusts are natural - maybe. What about the human plague? By any definition the Human animal would be described as a plague on earth. So I guess we are behaving naturally as would a plague of mice or locusts, - but we all know what ultimately happens to plagues of mice - or anything else for that matter. And that is the catastrophic end collapse. So my question would be - if we know where plagues lead, and we are so very smart, why would we not put the brakes on our own plague to save ourselves and all those critters around us? And this question suggests that it doesn't matter if it is natural or unnatural.

By Bi

Slick


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 10, 2010)

Ok I cant help myself.
By my understanding a plague usually happens when a series of things occur that create an environment in which the insect or animal can flourish.
We have certainly flourished.
With locusts I think it's largely weather related.
A couple of Questions though. With plagues of mice and locusts is the end result catastrophic collapse. Or are they just reduced to their base sustainable level?
Will the human race ultimately collapse (extinction) or will we just be reduced to our base sustainable level?
Either way its a frightening thought and until it happens I don't think it can be answered 
To answer the question. All other plagues as far as I know have behaved single mindedly they don't have the ability to reason or feel emotion. Humans have the ability to think for themselves
Actually come to think of it, Plague is a human definition and as far as I can tell we only call it a plague when the said insect or animal has a significant affect on humans.
It seems a reasonable theory to me that when an animal experiences conditions that allow it to reach plague proportions, then they are reacting to a survival mechanism, massive numbers of offspring mean that when they have exhausted the vast majority of their resources then by pure numbers alone they have ensured their best chance at survival. Is it possible that by sheer numbers alone the human race just may survive the catastrophic end collapse?
Is it possible that instinctively we are acting like any other plague animal and gorging ourselves in a time of prosperity to ensure our greatest chance at survival?

I feel that this discussion is impossible to conclude, There are just to many perspectives to view it from, though as I have just demonstrated, it's going to be quite difficult for me to just bow out, but please don't be offended if I can't keep it up.

Those Pig Nose Turtles are something else, though another animal I'm sure we cannot keep in WA.

Steve


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## Slickturtle (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Matt and Jo

Just a few quick points on Almond Land. 1. Yes Almond land is big, but Oenpelli Pythons are only found in the most inaccessible western edge, a tiny part of Arnhemland and about 60 km in a straight line from the sea - that is a long walk. So, anyone arriving by boat would more likely motor up the East Alligator River to get anywhere near the habitat of the Oenpelli Python. This would be risky as the Kakadu rangers are all crazed fishermen and the poachers would have to sail past them to get to the sandstone country. One of the jobs of the Rangers is to inspect boats to ensure that people have been sticking to the fishing bag limit.
2. "they definitely swap reptiles for grog with Indonesian traders." Hmmm - I haven't seen or heard any evidence of that. I wonder how the Indonesians get past the flotillas of Aussie naval Patrol boats and Customs planes and boats which are scouring the sea looking for asylum seekers?
3. I kind of hope that there are Oenpellis over seas in collections because the way we are going, there won't be any at all in Australia in 50 years.
4. Yes, there are countless bottles littering Almond Land but not with "Made in Indonesia" written on them. They will have things like "Carlton United Brewery" written on them.

We will have ask Gordo what he reckons when he gets back from the Arnhemland coast to his home at Oenpelli.

See yah

Slick



Matt-and-Jo said:


> well its a huge area arnhem land and a million spots to land a boat and they definitly swap reptiles for grog with indonesian traders thats a fact, oenpellis are most likely overseas in several collections and countless empty bottles littering arnhem land


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## Slickturtle (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Steve

_"Those Pig Nose Turtles are something else, though another animal I'm sure we cannot keep in WA."_

That is right, you can't have hem. Another crazy law. This species will be declared internationally endangered in 10 years or so. i can breed any number but cannot sell them all as the Aust. market is so small - because states like WA ban them. I cannot imagine why? Are they worried that this delicate tropical turtle is going to get loose in the Swan River and breed into the thousands and eat the legs off your Black swans? They would last about 10 minutes in your southern rivers.

Maybe they are worried that they would get into the Ord? I can imagine how long this most delicious of all freshwater turtles would last up there with such a big and hungry indigenous population. On the other hand - international export of wild caught Pig Noses for the restaurant trade could be a huge industry out of Lake Argyle!! Trouble is - you would have to make beaches for them to nest in. I don't think there are beaches around Argyle - are there?

Cheers

Slick


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## waruikazi (Jul 11, 2010)

I saw that comment but wasn't going to respond just incase it got this thread even further off topic. But seeing as i was called out i'll see if i can tailer a response that adresses the indo fishers and native fauna rather than grog. 

History has shown that there was trade amongst the fishers and the coastal indigenous people. Although from my memories of studying the hostory of North Australia at university it was usually for food and water... and women (again a 'lil off topic) not reptiles for the pet trade. Grog was also traded.

Does it happen now? Well with the advent of fridge freezers and distilleries and shops and motors and electrizity i can't see a reason why the Indo's would need to risk making contact with locals along the coast and i can't see what the locals would want from them. That along with the effinciency of the Aussie customs authority it makes it very difficult for people to land. I'll share a story from last week that shows how good customs is. I was out with a few mates, one of which was a traditional owner, in really remote Arnhem Land hunting for buffalo. It was dark, there was no one around for a hundred km either way and we weren't using any lights. When we were about to leave a customs plane flew over us a couple times cuase they picked up our heat signals. So there is no hiding from customs.

Another story i'll share will give you an idea of what the locals think of the indo fishers. It flies a little in the face of what i wrote above but it is a good example of the relationship between locals and the illegals. During the wet a couple years ago everyone at the outstation i was camping at last week had to go out bush for ceremony. They were away for a week and when they got back they found that the indos had broken into their houses, used their beds, facilities and eaten their dogs. They really don't like each other. 

For those reasons combined with Greg's arguments and the fact that grog is so much easier to buy from shops i think it is very unlikely that their is an illegal trade in reptiles for grog and even more so for Oenpellis.




Slickturtle said:


> Hi Matt and Jo
> 
> Just a few quick points on Almond Land. 1. Yes Almond land is big, but Oenpelli Pythons are only found in the most inaccessible western edge, a tiny part of Arnhemland and about 60 km in a straight line from the sea - that is a long walk. So, anyone arriving by boat would more likely motor up the East Alligator River to get anywhere near the habitat of the Oenpelli Python. This would be risky as the Kakadu rangers are all crazed fishermen and the poachers would have to sail past them to get to the sandstone country. One of the jobs of the Rangers is to inspect boats to ensure that people have been sticking to the fishing bag limit.
> 2. "they definitely swap reptiles for grog with Indonesian traders." Hmmm - I haven't seen or heard any evidence of that. I wonder how the Indonesians get past the flotillas of Aussie naval Patrol boats and Customs planes and boats which are scouring the sea looking for asylum seekers?
> ...


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## waruikazi (Jul 11, 2010)

Wow! The week in the bush has really left me with alot of reading to do!

Thankyou for putting up that article Greg, made for a very good read. I think you may be pleased to hear that despite floods, cyclones and fires the legacy of some of the herpers mentioned in that article are still having an impact in our school. There is a collection of preserved reptiles and other animals in our science resources that Brian Jukes collected in the 70's. When i can get access to my school i'll try and get some pictures up of them.



Slickturtle said:


> Hi all
> 
> Since there seems to be a hunger out there to learn more about these mystical snakes I offer you and article written in June last year by a mate of mine who lives in Darwin.
> 
> ...


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## Bushman (Jul 11, 2010)

Welcome back Gordo. Yes, this thread has survived, as have you it seems. Did you see many herps out in the bush when you were out there or are they lying low a bit?
Have you ever seen a wild Oenpelli up there?


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## waruikazi (Jul 11, 2010)

I was out on Coburg peninsula which is the most northern part of the NT so no there were definately no oenpellis up there. We saw lots of crocodiles but not too much more. But it was mainly a fishing trip so no real suprises. I did manage to pick up a bockodam, which was the first i've got hold of, very strange snake and was not what i was expecting at all, saw a GTS when i was chasing a buffalo and also saw a Gwardar which looked more like a speckled brown. Unfortunately no pics. 

A little controversial but i'll share anyway. We caught a big sea turtle which would have weighed 50kg+ which was quicky turned into turtle soup by the locals, i didn't get to try any but they said it was delicious. 



Bushman said:


> Welcome back Gordo. Yes, this thread has survived, as have you it seems. Did you see many herps out in the bush when you were out there or are they lying low a bit?
> Have you ever seen a wild Oenpelli up there?


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## Bushman (Jul 11, 2010)

So there's still a few herps out and about. That's an interesting few to see anyway. 
What species of turtle was it?

Have you ever seen any wild Oenpelli's, ever? I thought that since you're near the namesake place you may have come across a few.


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## waruikazi (Jul 11, 2010)

Yeah there is still a few out there, more than a few actually there's bloody heaps of them. I keep a diary like any good herper of what i have seen and the conditions etc i think i average about five snakes a week in oenpelli so three in five days without looking would probably mean there are similar numbers out there. I think it was a green turtle but i'm not sure hey, i'll see if i can get pics of my mates camera to put up in another thread. Stinky animals but!

I have never seen a wild Oenpelli, although i'm still holding out hope and doing a bit of research to try and increase my chances. Until i read that article Greg posted up i really didn't think that you would get them inside the community. Now that i know it can happen i'm even keener. If i ever find one i'll make sure you guys are the first to know.


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## Bushman (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks mate. If you post a pic of the turtle up in another thread, I can confirm its identity, as I'm sure Slick can as well. 

Back to Oenpellis now and from all accounts, including yours, they're very thin on the ground. Maybe there's fat ones in the trees? (Sorry, couldn't help myself. I know it's no laughing matter!) 
It really highlights the need for establishing this species in captivity, when resident herpers like yourself haven't even seen a single specimen in the type locality! 
Keep your ear to the ground, as I'm sure you do and thanks for offering to keep us informed if you do find one.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 11, 2010)

"_they're very thin on the ground. Maybe there's fat ones in the trees?_"

Of course!!! that is where we have been going wrong!

Hey Gordo - get out there and look for fat ones in trees. LoL

Cheers

Slick


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## waruikazi (Jul 11, 2010)

Lol Greg. I actually had a dream just before this thread started that i saw one coiled up in the Banyan tree near my house. And it was a fatty.


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## cement (Jul 11, 2010)

This thread has been a very interesting and intriguing read.
I also liked the you tube clip that I think Steve put up as it resonates with my simple belief of an old saying that "it is better to light a candle, then to curse the coming darkness."

I have had disagreements with certain people involved in this thread before, but I do think that if we were to have a beer together we would probably get on fine as we share similar feelings about our great country and its wildlife.

My thoughts about the Oenpelli Python is this "its better to light a candle, then to curse the coming darkness". Do something about getting it secure in captivity just as JW has done with the RSP. I keep a pair of these remarkable snakes and they are a absolute pleasure to own and I see it as an honour.

Hey Steve1, your only 30 or so, and reading your post about wanting to do something with wildlife and conservation but not knowing what, is very similar to feelings I have had in the past. When you really look at all the problems we have created for this world it can well and truly overwhelm us and leave us with a feeling of helplessness or "why bother, as it won't be big enough to change anything."

My answer to this is to start small. Or, if that how you feel then just do _something_. Even just being on here is having an impact as knowledge is shared and discussion from people who are in the field and have real experience in these areas comes up for us to read and learn about. Its the small everyday things we do to help that give us a sense of satisfaction.

My other favorite saying is this, "Introspection begets wisdom." 
This works on many different levels, and for me, when I look at what we as humans are doing to this beautiful planet and to each other, I feel that there just isn't enough of this going on.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks very much for the advice. I hope someone manages to light that candle before it's to late. I think this thread may have had a positive impact on a number of people, it has certainly got me thinking, lets just hope these thoughts result in action, not just for the Oenpelli Python but the environment as a whole. That Youtube clip was shown to me a couple of years ago and I thought it was quite appropriate for this thread.

Steve


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 12, 2010)

The thread has strayed way off the original topic, but I don't think anyone is complaining.

The biggest problem our wildlife faces at this time is the huge range of confusing laws and restrictions in existence from state to state, and this, coupled with the fact that many of the 'enforcers' have been in positions of influence for decades. When many of these guys (& girls) started their corporate climb, it may have been a fact that maintaining distance between Oz wildlife and Oz people was a useful 'conservation' management tool. I think however, it has sown the seeds of the situation we face today.

In my view, the ONLY hope many species have is in the hands of caring and knowlegeable community members - frankly, the interested community is a relatively HUGE resource of knowledge, time & money compared to the 'authorised' facilities, which may or may not be interested in a specific project. Government departments will always chose cuddly, attractive targets to save because it has more appeal for the public.

Bureaucrats who have been in control of the 'hands-off our wildlife' policies are not suddenly going to turn around and admit they are wrong, or may even have been wrong for decades. They have been telling themselves and us for decades that their way is the only way, and you will incur their wrath if you don't obey. They are very reluctant to 'get with the program' as it is these days, and maintain attitudes that stem from the days when keeping a reptile meant that it was taken from the wild. They are dealing in the 21st century with rules that stem from mid-20th century, and the lansdcape has changed beyond recognition in that time.

As I said earlier in the thread - THEY are the agents of exrtinction these days, along with habitat degradation and feral pests.

Jamie.


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## Bushman (Jul 12, 2010)

Very well said Jamie! I couldn't agree more and I know some well respected biological and environmental scientists that support these views, at least privately. 

It's becoming increasingly apparent that this archaic system of management or rather mismanagement of our wildlife is _far_ from adequate! The situation is getting dire and it's high time to reform the system. You're absolutely right that the powers that be are not going to change the system that they themselves installed and administer. The current situation will only be improved by strong and persistent action from the people that really care!


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## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2010)

If we are to influence the course of changes that we would like to see, it's absolutely paramount to form an national body that will represent and act on behalf of us, devoted keepers / breeders / conservationists. It would be stunningly beneficial if we could demonstrate the we CAN organise ourselves nationally, as oppose to the fractionated state-based system the government has. We would be well in position to ignore the state authorities and deal directly with the feds if not directly with the minster Peter Garrett. It's time!


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 12, 2010)

I agree with the idea of a movement, Michael. But I think a lot of research would need to be done on the best way to a) receive government support, and 2) receive funding. Having worked in environmental charities, and seen the processes of what actually has to get done before anything gets done, I know that it's not as simple as a group of enthusiastic conservationists with good intentions getting together and "making a difference". But I'd be happy to look into this in more detail when I'm home.


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## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2010)

Regardless of my political views, I think Peter Garrett is THE best person to engage. Who knows what the next elections will bring, even if the current government stays in, portfolios can change hands. His singing is lousy but he has made some sound environmental decisions in his time.

Since we really are way of the topic and title "rock python" would you Jamie, Greg, Steve or anyone else like to start a new thread on these issues? Could anyone comment on the current state of the National Keepers Association (if I have the name right)?


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## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2010)

Let him yell as much as he likes as long as he doesn't sing! .... oh, it's the same, silly me.

M


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 12, 2010)

Sorry, Michael. Just thought I'd try to inject some humour into my post replying to your suggestion of an... oenpelli movement? I wasn't really saying that I think Garrett is Voldemort (though the physical similarities are uncanny, IMO). But I also don't think he would be the best person to engage as a starting point for a movement. More than happy to continue this in a more appropriate thread. 

Apologies for being off topic.

Slick - I think Garrett was probably more environmentally effective when he was in Midnight Oil, and yelling at everyone about the environment was his job


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## Slickturtle (Jul 12, 2010)

Hi Waterrat

I would not know how to "make a new thread"! But I will use it if you make it! Do you think our faithful readers would follow? 

I am hoping to strike a blow for the establishment of a National Reptile Keepers Association at Cairns in October at the National Hepetological Symposium. We need names of good, experienced herp keepers who (in Cairns) can form a little starter motor which will start the bigger starter motor which will start a powerful engine of change - the National Reptile Keepers Association. 

Amongst other things, we want someone out there who can set up a web site for the Association and be an administrator of it. There is a huge amount of stuff (from Australia and overseas) that can be posted on such a site - stuff which demonstrates the common sense and conservation benefit of what Pythoninfinite is saying. All this material (easily accessible) will help everyone to understand what is wrong and how things are going in terms of fixing it. It is crucially important that everyone of us is "reading from the same page".

Then we need to get everybodys attention with a series of traveling presentations to let everyone know what is happening; how and why and most importantly; to get people to come on board. I am happy to do that at my own expense. 

We need someone in each state to talk to the state associations of keepers of Aussie mammals, birds and the Aust. Native Fish keepers to get them all on board. I am even thinking of getting all the Australian native plant people involved and added them to our number. They live in a world of declining native species too, and their experience with the Wollomi Pine is very similar to ours with the RS Python. Once this is done and we have tens of thousands of people giving us their "in principle" support, I reckon we will be an almost unstoppable coalition for change. 

One of the main jobs is to inform these people of what is wrong at the moment. A lot of people are unaware that the current system is broken and will allow stacks of our native animals to go extinct without lifting a hand to save them. And here, amongst people like you, we have thousands of Australians who are keen to save species at their own expense. 

It would be good to get herp keepers in every state to allocate jobs within this new campaign - aimed at getting the state and Federal Governments to start to talk about a fresh look at the way things are done in this country. Something has got to give soon. Things cannot keep going the way they are, too many of our native animals will be lost unnecessarily if we sit back and do nothing. New information is constantly falling into our hands which adds strength to our argument - which I must stress is aimed at conservation at its core. This campaign must be about *conservation through captive breeding in the private sector.* The spin off will be that you would be able to keep and breed and trade many more species than you can today and you will be doing a valuable service to the environment at the same time.

There is room for everyone to be a part of this. Are you with us on this?

Slick




Waterrat said:


> Regardless of my political views, I think Peter Garrett (Voldemort as you put it) is THE best person to engage. Who knows what the next elections will bring, even if the current government stays in, portfolios can change hands. His singing is lousy but he has made some sound environmental decisions in his time.
> 
> Since we really are way of the topic and title "rock python" would you Jamie, Greg, Steve or anyone else like to start a new thread on these issues? Could anyone comment on the current state of the National Keepers Association (if I have the name right)?


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 12, 2010)

I would be on board, Slick. I'll PM you.


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## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2010)

Slick,

there is a wealth of information and bright comments in this thread already and it would a shame to loose it. On second thought, rather than starting a new thread, perhaps we could asks the mods / admin to re-name this thread to something like "National reptile keepers association" or "conservation & captive breeding" or similar. The mods could also clean up this thread and leave only the posts that are relevant to the topic. I will flag this post and see what happens.

cheers
M


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 12, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Hey Pythoninfinite, I think Steve is right up to a point . But the trouble is that when you start thinking about the big philosophical questions, things can easily get bogged down.
> 
> Hey Steve - I wonder if we could look at your view from this point of view: we humans are so clever that we have put ourselves in reverse evolution i.e. the opposite to survival of the fittest. This is because we are coming up with all sorts of cures and vaccines for common human conditions which used to kill us. Now we can live through what used to be fatal conditions and breed - thereby passing on an inheritable weakness to our children and then they to theirs etc. Therefore I would argue that if we can play God with our own survival prospects, why should we deny other animals on this planet the same gift of our genius. Would you be Humanistically selfish and let them slide into oblivion whilst you rush off to the Doctor to get some life saving procedure or medicine for yourself?
> Geees that hurt!!!
> ...


 I have pondered this myself, what is going to happen with the over population in the future, because of the above mentioned self-indulgent attitude of us homo-sapiens, which will have an obvious flow on affects to ALL other endangered and at risk animals of the world, plus making us a weaker specie which is more susceptible and NOT conforming to evolution as it has been for millions of years, survival of the fittest!
IF we are the ones to be the cause of a demise to a specie through climate change (which I am sceptical of) or other habitat devastation reasons, it should be up to us to help that specie survive! If it is natural selection to the demise of a specie...like for example the giraffe which are on the brink of evolutionary disaster...let nature take its course!
JMO!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks for that Greg,

There has been lots of talk about a reptile keepers' overseeing body in the past few years, the NRKA has actually been incorporated in NSW, and there is a group of people very keen to get the show on the road.It is likely that there will be some movement here in NSW in the next few weeks, perhaps a public get-together to get an idea of the issues we face and ideas about how to best structure the beast.

One of the reasons for the slow progress here has been the DECCW initiative regarding minimum standards legislation - it has bee on the go for almost 2 years now, and has taken a great deal of time from the individuals who have an interest in both the legislation and the keepers' association. Far from being resolved at this point in time, NPWS has become totally secretive about what they propose to drop into the reptile keeping equation in this state (other than indicating that enclosure sizes will be MANDATORY (we don't know what sizes they propose to enforce, or where their advice is coming from...) 

This represents a move into a new area of management for NPWS here in NSW - a new way to increase the already significant bureaucratic pressure on reptile keepers.

So, until we can see what is in store for us here, there isn't much time for anything else...

Watch this space though...

Jamie.


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## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2010)

I appreciate that you NSW guys have hands full with the standards legislation but other keen people elsewhere may be ready to make a move (Greg for example). While keeping up the wood work in Mexico, do you thing that some reps from the NRKA could join in for a meeting in Cairns in October? I got the feeling that the symposium and a series of meetings outside of it could give the movement a good kick start.


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 12, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The thread has strayed way off the original topic, but I don't think anyone is complaining.
> 
> The biggest problem our wildlife faces at this time is the huge range of confusing laws and restrictions in existence from state to state, and this, coupled with the fact that many of the 'enforcers' have been in positions of influence for decades. When many of these guys (& girls) started their corporate climb, it may have been a fact that maintaining distance between Oz wildlife and Oz people was a useful 'conservation' management tool. I think however, it has sown the seeds of the situation we face today.
> 
> ...


Sorry Guys I am posting as I am catching up on the thread...LOL I am a tad behind! 

I'm in with probably a few media contacts to help the cause and I fuly support you guys and you are the ones to make that change 100%

Pete Garret, not only because I am a Midnight Oil Fan WILL be a Ambassador to the cause, but you guys Slick, Jamie and many others (sorry to offend for not mentioning) as well as us concerned herpers, WILL help change the opinions and also make this work, definitely.
My job is write work place procedures and motivate staff into achieving the goals of the Business and a spin off for me, is to bring that expertise & support into the hobby I love...ie motivation and simply laying it out on the table with all the facts and for the laymen to understand. The target IS, NOT necessarily the minority of educated herpers, BUT the general populace who don't even know that this issue even exists!
Sorry guys, a little emotional stuff, but it does mean alot.
Thanks again


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm with you Scott re Peter Garrett's singing - Michaels's taste in music must be wanting somewhat...

Greg, Cairns does seem like an appropriate place to have a brainstorm about these matters, but the issues in Cairns at that time may have to be pretty much separated - the costs involved in attending the Symposium, if you're primarily interested in kicking the National Body ball around, would be daunting, when you add in the costs of fares and accommodation. Many people simply would not be able to afford to attend.

I'd be happy to go to Cairns for either reason if it meant that the movers & shakers were all gathered in the one spot for a few days.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2010)

Greg, could you and I talk to the organizers? Either to make a room for the intrinsically involved or to organize some time / venue for this event outside but not to far away from the main event?

Jamie, I loved Midnight oil, their music, lyrics, even Pete's strange moves but the voice? He sounds better in the parliament.

M


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 12, 2010)

It would be a shame if this would exclude anyone unable to go in October...


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 12, 2010)

Kristy,

Part of the problem has been the difficulty of getting enough people under one roof at any given time, at any given place. There have been lots of cries of 'elitism' from some of those who may feel excluded, despite these discordant notes, I'm sure we all realise that we have to try and tie everyone together, to try and see the bigger picture, because without a vision common to ALL participants, we will get nowhere. Whilst we are seen to be fighting amongst ourselves, we won't achieve anything worthwhile. Reptile keepers are a notoriously disparate group, and it will always be difficult to get consensus, but without consensus, we can be picked off one by one when it suits the enforcers.

I'm sure there is enough that needs to be done in every jurisdiction, to ensure the 'locals' can have their say. And for the big issues these forums are very good for disseminating information...

Jamie.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Wow to think this all started with the opening line. Hey all Ive just been offered a Northern Territory rock Python. It sounds like something could really come of this thread and although I have had a fair bit to say throughout I am now almost lost for words. This thread seems to have almost come to life and grabbed the attentions of many people who all have something in common, the desire for dramatic change and action towards, policies, procedures and the prevailing attitudes of not only leading government bodies but everyday members of the public. At the same time I feel like an opportunity is slipping away from me to finally make a difference, because I just don't know how to move forward and turn these emotions and thoughts into action. I sincerely hope I can be a part of what seems to be emerging here, and if anyone has ideas or guidance on how I can help it would be appreciated, If I can't, then I appeal to those who can, don't let this opportunity go to waste. AUSTRALIA CAN'T AFFORD IT.

STEVE


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## wriggles (Jul 12, 2010)

what about goneself though, did he actually purchase that 'rock python' he was offered??...


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

Wow this thread has come a long way! My computer is working again so I can read all the posts now and its good to see a discussion like this can still take place! 




Waterrat said:


> If we are to influence the course of changes that we would like to see, it's absolutely paramount to form an national body that will represent and act on behalf of us, devoted keepers / breeders / conservationists. It would be stunningly beneficial if we could demonstrate the we CAN organise ourselves nationally, as oppose to the fractionated state-based system the government has. We would be well in position to ignore the state authorities and deal directly with the feds if not directly with the minster Peter Garrett. It's time!


 
Michael I think this is the hardest part, we need an organisation that stands aside from the private keeping of these animals..
The different rules and regulations state to state with the DECC stands in the way of what can be achieved with this, an organisation dedicated to conservation of these animals needs to have the market for private keeping as a second priority!
Im sure everyone would like to be the first to breed the great oenpelli and make a quick buck in the process as these snakes id imagine would be the most highly priced in the market but when the dollars are involved in the process the water gets muddy! private breeding is all about looks whether you are a true locality breeder or not and the inbred/cross locality animals that would become the captive population are worth next to nothing for the conservation of the animals..
We need an organisation that is commited to a captive breeding program for the possibility of reintroduction into the wild.
the problem is if the animal is not worth anything then there seems to be not much interest! what about the top end mulga that Greg posted? what about all the smaller uglier species? what about the small mammals that zoo's wont keep in a breeding program because no one is interested in paying to see them? there are alot of animals out there that could benefit from such an organisation but it needs to be seperated from the private collection/pet trade 

its far too late for me to be typing on here and im not even sure if any of that even made any sense so I might try to explain my point tomorrow 

cheers 
Josh


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2010)

Josh you made perfect sense and you hit the nail 100% as far as i am concerned. I was avoiding making further comment on the topic as i have already made my opinion reasonably clear. 

If we use the Oenpellis as an example. Because they are, atleast to us, an intriguing and charismatic animal, if we choose to concentrate on this one animal over the countless others that are vunerable we may lose sight of the bigger picture. I think that bigger picture is all the other vunerable plants and animals and their habitat as a whole. 

Bringing animals into captivity is a quick fix, it is nothing but a bandaid on the real problems that are facing our environment. I think restocking is too. If we can rehabilitate the habitat to its former state we will not need to restock or have captive populations. People keep bringing up the RSP story as a win in conservation, how has that story made it any more likely for a single animal to survive in the wild? One in the bush is worth a thousand in captivity. And on that note, we don't know anything about nawarans and their true numbers, if we collect a pair of them we could cause the localised extinction of this species.

I also worry that the dollar value of many of these vunerable species will get in the way of any realistic conservation efforts. When a single animal is likely to be worth in excess of $20k i think greed will take control. 

Despite my comments i am not against having these or any other native animal in captive collections. There is nothing wrong with sustainable harvest of any wild plant or animal but if we are talking about conservation we need to look beyond our own selfish wants and a single species. 

(Like Josh said, it's late i hope that kinda made sense.)



Farma said:


> Wow this thread has come a long way! My computer is working again so I can read all the posts now and its good to see a discussion like this can still take place!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2010)

Josh, you have made a brave move in your post, you have nailed it on the head and no doubt that will stir a fierce discussion - I will get back to it tomorrow. As you said, it's a bit late and the few glasses of red don't make me think any clearer. 
Trust your instincts. lol


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## Darlyn (Jul 12, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Who is this Darlyn who brought the conversation back onto topic?!! We were having a great time 'out there' not talking about the topic! Well, to answer your question - I think the Territory Wildlife Park still has one. But no breeding prospects there.
> Hi Slick,
> 
> I wondered if maybe Graeme Gow had one in his collection at some stage and perhaps it was still there.
> ...


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## Laghairt (Jul 13, 2010)

Waterrat;It would be stunningly beneficial if we could demonstrate the we CAN organise ourselves nationally said:


> I'm actually studying biodiversity law at the moment and although I agree that it would be better to be managed under a single federal body, in reality this will never happen (unless we can change the constitution). Unfortunately, the way Australian legislation is set up means that the states retain control of the management of wildlife that exists within state boundaries. So although the Commonwealth can have some influence over decision making, the power really lies with the state governments. This is why we have the complex disjointed systems that currently exist.
> 
> I still believe it would be beneficial to establish some kind of organised lobby group at the national level; however to achieve real results it would be better to focus on lobbying at the state level.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 13, 2010)

anouc is correct, although a two-pronged approach is probably needed. The Federal Minister won't readily ride rough-shod over the states, and in reality it's the states that cause the biggest problems - old ways of thinking in the new environment.


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## Waterrat (Jul 13, 2010)

That's great to toss these ideas around though. Thanks for bringing it up anouc - good to have a lower in the house. lol


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 13, 2010)

Gordo, if the collection of the last pair of pythons causes a local extinction of that species, then that is precisely why they should be taken into captivity. Their chances of maintaining the population of 2 in the wild is slim indeed, if it is environmental factors that are exterminating them. The chances of breeding, hatching eggs, and then the survival of the youngsters is probably nil. In captivity with proper husbandry, high hatch rate for eggs and often almost 100% survival rates for neonates, the chances for the survival of the species are vastly improved.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we breed for release back into habitat at this point in time, at least until we know what factors are causing the problems in the first place and can address them. This is the same with all recovery programs - get the animals into a secure situation, fix the habitat, then release them back into the habitat. Even flinty WA has had some success with Numbats, Woilies (and even SW Carpet Pythons) at Dryandra Reserve, south of Perth), but only after significant changes to the environment - removal of foxes, cats etc...

Similarly with the RSP - a snake with very specialised and limited habitat (in the wild) - if anything happens to that habitat, at least we have the species secure in captivity, and who knows what we can do in the future to restore the habitat to its former usefulness?

I suspect that anyone involved with the capture and breeding of rare or endangered fauna will have to jump through many flaming hoops to prove their credentials, so the chances of early profiteering is likely to be very slim. Of course it is very likely that some oenpellis are out there in the care of private keepers, here or overseas, it would be naive to believe otherwise, but the profile of this animal in particular (and there are others) would make it impossible to move them without setting off very loud alarm bells. It would be exactly the same for V. keithhornei from Cape York. Some people may profit from them in the longer term, but those involved in any recovery program would have serious obligations to fulfil long before they could be sold for profit. This was the case with John Weigel and the RSP, and he did it well.

Jamie.


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## Laghairt (Jul 13, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> That's great to toss these ideas around though. Thanks for bringing it up anouc - good to have a lower in the house. lol


 
LOL, I wish things were different but that's the reality we face.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm not basing my argument on the idea that collecting a couple of animals will cause localised extinction. My point with that statement is that we know nothing about Nawarans and before we can launch into a conservation plan driven by keepers and the pet trade we need to know more about them. Even the Authority that you referred me to explicitly states in his publications that there has been no assessments on total population size or trends in abundance and there have been *NO* detailed studies into its ecology. 

I'll go back to the original discussion that you and i had. We do not know that this species' population is in decline.



Pythoninfinite said:


> Gordo, if the collection of the last pair of pythons causes a local extinction of that species, then that is precisely why they should be taken into captivity. Their chances of maintaining the population of 2 in the wild is slim indeed, if it is environmental factors that are exterminating them. The chances of breeding, hatching eggs, and then the survival of the youngsters is probably nil. In captivity with proper husbandry, high hatch rate for eggs and often almost 100% survival rates for neonates, the chances for the survival of the species are vastly improved.
> 
> I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we breed for release back into habitat at this point in time, at least until we know what factors are causing the problems in the first place and can address them. This is the same with all recovery programs - get the animals into a secure situation, fix the habitat, then release them back into the habitat. Even flinty WA has had some success with Numbats, Woilies (and even SW Carpet Pythons) at Dryandra Reserve, south of Perth), but only after significant changes to the environment - removal of foxes, cats etc...
> 
> ...


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## Waterrat (Jul 13, 2010)

Gordo, Farma touched on the subject of pet trade, etc., and I said he is brave because this will open up a can of worms. It is absolutely essential not to mix this or any other conservation oriented ideas, and hopefully projects at later stage, with the pet industry. This game will require different players with no ties to morphing, hybridizing, etc., and the dissemination of captive bred progeny will have to be carefully thought out to make sure that the mighty $ is not the main motivation.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm sure you will find that anecdotally, from people who have been around that part of the territory for decades, that it is indeed, in decline. I don't dispute that there is little documented info to back up claims such as this.

I think the focus here has been on the oenpelli because it was the thread starter, and it is something that is known to experienced keepers, and has a captive history which proves that the power of the law can be very damaging when applied without serious thought. The oenpelli story mught be quite different if Peter Krauss had been creditied for what he did with them, and the animals confiscated from him weren't consigned to the dustbin of history by moving them to the TWP. Of course there are many other species equally deserving of our attention, and there are lots of keepers out there with niche interests who are interested in the animals, not the dollar. The pet trade is WAY down the track at this point in time, should NEVER be included in any debate at this stage. 

I've never suggested that the RSP story is a win for conservation, simply, it's a win for the species. There's a big difference. 

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

I agree completely. I don't think i worded my first response real well but how you and Josh put it is pretty well how i feel on the topic.



Waterrat said:


> Gordo, Farma touched on the subject of pet trade, etc., and I said he is brave because this will open up a can of worms. It is absolutely essential not to mix this or any other conservation oriented ideas, and hopefully projects at later stage, with the pet industry. This game will require different players with no ties to morphing, hybridizing, etc., and the dissemination of captive bred progeny will have to be carefully thought out to make sure that the mighty $ is not the main motivation.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

I feel a sense of De`Javu coming on lol. The stories i have been told by the people who live in the escarpment country is that they are still in good numbers. 

I just want to make it clear that i am not a god of the gaps. I understand fully that no evidence doesn't mean that everything is all good on the West Arnhem plateau. It just means that we don't know. The idea that they are in decline is not something that i am dismissing, it is entirely possible that they are on the brink of extinction. The problem is we don't know and before we/the authorities etc can devise a conservation plan there needs to be extensive research. Just as an FYI that is actually the reccomendations for a conservation plan by Woinarski, extensive research.



Pythoninfinite said:


> I'm sure you will find that anecdotally, from people who have been around that part of the territory for decades, that it is indeed, in decline. I don't dispute that there is little documented info to back up claims such as this.
> 
> I think the focus here has been on the oenpelli because it was the thread starter, and it is something that is known to experienced keepers, and has a captive history which proves that the power of the law can be very damaging when applied without serious thought. The oenpelli story mught be quite different if Peter Krauss had been creditied for what he did with them, and the animals confiscated from him weren't consigned to the dustbin of history by moving them to the TWP. Of course there are many other species equally deserving of our attention, and there are lots of keepers out there with niche interests who are interested in the animals, not the dollar. The pet trade is WAY down the track at this point in time, should NEVER be included in any debate at this stage.
> 
> ...


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 13, 2010)

OK, I know what you are saying, and I agree with it to a very large extent. Either way in my opinion, if it is in decline, it should be taken into captivity and intensively bred if it is possible. Likewise, if it is in 'good numbers' (and your info may well be better than mine Gordo), a strategy such as that used on the RSP would do no harm to the population, and would be likely to reduce the potential for poaching from the wild. Why bother going to the expense of trying to collect them from the wild when there is (it seems from what I hear) very little chance of success, when you can buy one from a reputable breeder?

Having spent most of my working life in a research institution, I understand the importance of most research. But I have seen huge mounts of time and money wasted on 'research' that ends up leading nowhere. I'm not for a moment suggesting that Mr Woinarski is in that basket (indeed all my colleagues have a very high opinion of him and his work). A lot of the stuff done in many institutions is driven by ego.

I'll add more this arvo - I have some thoughts on the 'reputable breeder' thing and the fact that all keepers/breeders are lumped together by the Oz bureaucracies - there is no 'elite' (for want of a better word) status to aspire to, which marks a person as an ethical, technically competent fauna keeper.

Jamie.


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## Waterrat (Jul 13, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> a strategy such as that used on the RSP would do no harm to the population, and would be likely to reduce the potential for poaching from the wild. Why bother going to the expense of trying to collect them from the wild when there is (it seems from what I hear) very little chance of success, when you can buy one from a reputable breeder?



That resonates the case of native GTPs and of course the RSP.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

Just incase anyone is interested this is the book that Jamie and i have been quoting. http://www.nt.gov.au/nreta/wildlife/animals/threatened/pdf/lostflyer.pdf#search="lost" 

It is not specific on the oenpelli python but is more of a reference book with profiles of all the vunerable flora and fauna of the NT which includes descriptions, ecology, distribution, conservation and threats. 288 pages long for $25, not a bad price if you're interested in this sort of thing.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Thanks for that Greg,
> 
> There has been lots of talk about a reptile keepers' overseeing body in the past few years, the NRKA has actually been incorporated in NSW, and there is a group of people very keen to get the show on the road.It is likely that there will be some movement here in NSW in the next few weeks, perhaps a public get-together to get an idea of the issues we face and ideas about how to best structure the beast.
> 
> ...



Well,

This sounds like to ideal time to let them know that moves are afoot to form a national body. A body which will take a proactive role in both state and Federal issues.

Slick


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Yeeaaar Wriggles - you are right. Maybe Gonself has Goneoff!

Cheers

Slick


wriggles said:


> what about goneself though, did he actually purchase that 'rock python' he was offered??...


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 13, 2010)

From the PMs I've been receiving since yesterday afternoon, it sounds as though this is a movement for "the big boys" only, at this stage. I hope, down the track, there is the opportunity for others to be involved, as well.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

Maybe you could affiliate yourself with one of the big boys? But i think your biggest problem will be living in Vietnam! 



Kristy_07 said:


> From the PMs I've been receiving since yesterday afternoon, it sounds as though this is a movement for "the big boys" only, at this stage. I hope, down the track, there is the opportunity for others to be involved, as well.


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## jahan (Jul 13, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> From the PMs I've been receiving since yesterday afternoon, it sounds as though this is a movement for "the big boys" only, at this stage. I hope, down the track, there is the opportunity for others to be involved, as well.



Always has been and always will be. Who`s going to listen to a nobody? If these people dont do it I don`t see anyone else doing anything about it.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 13, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Maybe you could affiliate yourself with one of the big boys? But i think your biggest problem will be living in Vietnam!


 
Maybe you?  Being that I'm in NGO/NFP comms & marketing (including such technologies as "the internet"), and that my contacts in enviro law & legislation are all in Oz, I wouldn't have thought me being in Vietnam for another 10-12mths was that big a hurdle.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

Maybe me...  (lol that's a joke, i don't count myself as being anywhere near the 'big boys' i'm just noisy and don't mind having an argument.)

With qualifications like your i would definately encourage you to affiliate yourself with someone because i think you would be an asset in any conservation movement. 

My remoteness will probably count me out of this captive conservation buisiness. Although i am working on something that will aid, i think dramatically, in conservation albeit different to what has been discussed here. 



Kristy_07 said:


> Maybe you?  Being that I'm in NGO/NFP comms & marketing (including such technologies as "the internet"), and that my contacts in enviro law & legislation are all in Oz, I wouldn't have thought me being in Vietnam for another 10-12mths was that big a hurdle.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

This thread has really sparked a bit of interest for me, so instead of listening to hearsay i rang the people who are in the know. 

The TWP has had four nawarans over the years. Kraus's 2 and 2 other animals brought into care. 

Kraus's 2 have both died. The first one was euthed because of cancer and the second was taken to a convention several years ago where it caught an infectious disease and died a few months later. A third animal was brought into care after it was run over but looked like it may survive but unfortunately it didn't.

The final one was an animal that had its eyes pecked out by birds. This animal is still alive and is the one that they have on display. There was no mention of the 2 hatchlings. 

There is a conservation plan and a plan to get them into the pet trade.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 13, 2010)

That's great info. Is the conservation plan public?


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## FAY (Jul 13, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> This thread has really sparked a bit of interest for me, so instead of listening to hearsay i rang the people who are in the know.
> 
> The TWP has had four nawarans over the years. Kraus's 2 and 2 other animals brought into care.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that info Gordon...


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

Not yet. I asked for a copy but i couldn't get one because at this point in time there is no hard or soft copy ready to be viewed. The fella i spoke to did give me a brief idea of what was being done but i didn't ask him if it would be ok to make mention of it publicly. Just to tease you all he also told me a few other really interesting things that i wont get into either.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 13, 2010)

The one that died from an 'infectious disease' after coming to Sydney for the first Expo died 3 weeks after returning to the TWP due to RI I'm told, it was taken every night up into the Blue Mountains, for security purposes, and not provided with heat during that time. I saw the animal there, and know who was responsible for it.

Kristy and others, PLEASE don't think this action group is just for the 'big boys' - whatever that may mean. The reason that a few familiar names come up when this is discussed is because many of them are in frequent communication with each other, have known each other for years, and have a deep understanding and concern for not just the hobby/industry, but for our landscape and it's wildlife. Much of what has fuelled the debate between them has been the constant difficulties they face when dealing with surly, unwilling, uncooperative and even threatening bureaucrats, who see no good coming from the keeping of our native animals.

The reason this may seem to be 'elite' or closed is simply because of the difficulty in getting a cohesive, affirmative action group organised - this is especially so in Australia, with it's myriad of weird and contradictory laws. You would see, even here, that there are wreckers who offer nothing positive - I have got into awful trouble myself on this site, and despite my pleas, been branded an elitist, along with others. Not too long ago, there was public meeting for reptile keepers in NSW, to discuss the coming minimum standards regulations. I didn't attend because I live 450ks from Sydney and couldn't get there, but from what I heard, the meeting was poorly attended. NPWS is within their rights to assess from this that reptile keepers don't really give a damn about what NPWS does - so in effect, we get the laws we deserve.

Well, do we think it's time to change this?

Anybody with even 2 brain cells, but a good, POSITIVE attitude, some ideas to throw around, a strong desire to change the way we do things, and above all PATIENCE, must be welcome to participate in brainstorming, lobbying... whatever it takes. This is a huge job, the wickets won't fall at the first ball, and you young buggers have got a lot more energy the we oldies have! I know Greg has mentioned to me privately (not sure if here) that this needs to involve not just reptile keepers, but those with an interest in all Australian fauna - reptiles, birds, mammals, amphibs, fish, possibly inverts and plants as well.

How do you tie a group like this together??? Any ideas?

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

Surely there are Aus fish, mammal and invert forums on the net. They would be good places to start.


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## DanN (Jul 13, 2010)

My 0.2 cents....

I believe that it is enormously beneficial that these ideas are thrown around. Discussing such things opens the mind to different trains of thought and can only lead to good things.

I do believe, however, that conservation of each species is different to the other. An understanding of species ecology, state legislation, etc all interacts so that conservation initiatives need to be species specific. 
While we can cite success stories such as the RSP and Foxtail palm, their story is different to the Oenpelli python and all other species in need of conservation.

I agree with the points made, having a captive Oenpelli population means that, in the event of endangerment, we have a potential and pre-emptive recovery population.
Again however, I reiterate what was said in my earlier posts, do we really know the species is in decline? I respect the anecdotal evidence given by some stating that they encounter fewer Nawaran these days. In contrast, we have the anecdotal evidence given by Gordo, stating that they are still reasonably abundant. I too, know two people, one that lives in the area, the other a guide, both of whom encounter the snakes (these are apparently the same individuals) and they occasionally see juveniles.

From my own experience, I have spent months in the stone country and never seen Nawaran. Based on my experience, I could conclude a low abundance. My point is that, (with all due respect to the people who have much more experience than me) without solid evidence, it seems tenuous to infer a decline based on little info.
Ideally, a captive breeding initiative should be run in conjunction with a field research programme on the species. It has been said that for various reasons the red-tape involved is too great to enable field research. 

In contrast, I applied for permits to conduct a telemetry study of Nawaran in 2006. This was to be completed in Kakadu and from first impressions the idea was given a more positive reception than other species I have worked on in other states. Admittedly, the application didn’t go as far as consulting Traditional Owners, however, I see no reason why, without careful planning and TO involvement, this research cannot be carried out.

In the end I suspended the permit application as I was not in the right place in my life to commit to the project. I admit, sifting through the red-tape to conduct such as study would be great, however, that is reality. 
With patience and communication anything can be done, and my point, is that from the Kakadu side at least, the authorities were extremely amiable about such a project. Conservation initiatives and subsequent breeding programmes will benefit greatly from sufficient population data, physiological knowledge and behaviour studies – information that cannot be gleaned from anecdotal reports.

Surely, such information gathering should occur before, or at least in conjunction with a breeding program.
Please do not flame me for what I have said. I have tried to make my comments as unbiased as possible and only in the best interests of this species.

Cheers,
Dan


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## Waterrat (Jul 13, 2010)

Dan, first of all, thanks for this valuable contribution. At what level do you think such field study be? Honours, MSc, PhD? Alternatively, do you see a way for an individual or a group not enrolled in post-grad program carrying this work?

Cheers
Michael


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Dan,

I take all your points on board, and suggest that the debate on this thread may have been a bit Nawaran-centric, but only because it is a bit of an icon, and if, indeed, the population is declining, then it is a useful species to use as an example. However, as Gordo has pointed out, his anecdotal evidence differes from that of others, so who's to know?

It does seem possible, given the huge and demonstrated decline in the mammal population in the last 30 years in the Top End (and this began long before the arrival of Cane Toads), that large predators which utilise native mammals as a food source, would also suffer stress from a reduced food supply.

Jamie.


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## DanN (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Mike,

Being affiliated with an institution will help - a lot! Studies could be ongoing and overlapping, therefore, there is scope for any level of study. Ideally, somebody intrinsically involved with this species and the area would be a great chief investigator - somebody like a Greg Miles/Gordo. I obviously cannot comment about these folk as I don't know them. 

I would have thought that, if the species is in the decline postulated, that the NT government/TWP/Kakadu itself would have initiated something already.

Cheers,
Dan


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## DanN (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Jaime,

I completely agree. Common sense, if nothing else, suggests a decline, however, I would have thought that Nawaran would be in a better position than most to withstand such stochastic effects - but maybe not?

Regardless, we agree on the same things and the declining or not debate is irrelevant - the species needs to be studied.

Dan


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## Waterrat (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Dan,
has Rick Shine got anyone up there or wanting to work there?
Otherwise, you two gentleman, would you like to become Dr. Miles and Dr. Gordo? Ohhh, Dr. Gordo has got a ring to it! lol

cheers
M


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 13, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Kristy and others, PLEASE don't think this action group is just for the 'big boys' - whatever that may mean. The reason that a few familiar names come up when this is discussed is because many of them are in frequent communication with each other, have known each other for years, and have a deep understanding and concern for not just the hobby/industry, but for our landscape and it's wildlife. Much of what has fuelled the debate between them has been the constant difficulties they face when dealing with surly, unwilling, uncooperative and even threatening bureaucrats, who see no good coming from the keeping of our native animals.
> 
> The reason this may seem to be 'elite' or closed is simply because of the difficulty in getting a cohesive, affirmative action group organised - this is especially so in Australia, with it's myriad of weird and contradictory laws. You would see, even here, that there are wreckers who offer nothing positive - I have got into awful trouble myself on this site, and despite my pleas, been branded an elitist, along with others. Not too long ago, there was public meeting for reptile keepers in NSW, to discuss the coming minimum standards regulations. I didn't attend because I live 450ks from Sydney and couldn't get there, but from what I heard, the meeting was poorly attended. NPWS is within their rights to assess from this that reptile keepers don't really give a damn about what NPWS does - so in effect, we get the laws we deserve.
> 
> ...



Jamie, having established several NFP groups, I keenly understand the difficulties of such a venture. I understand and fully appreciate the knowledge of the key players, and that the whole idea has stemmed from their experiences and frustrations with the system. That said, the organisation of a successful action group requires a lot more than good intentions and enthusiasm. The most successful NFPs/action groups are those that understand and follow the practices of any other good business-charity. 

If you're willing for this to involve others, that's great! I can understand your concerns about time-wasters and cynics, but by simply being discerning in who you include/exclude, you should be able to weed these people out fairly quickly. I think the first step is to establish what you want to achieve, at least initially, say, the next 2 years. I would think about why the group is forming. What's the desired outcome? Then I would write it down concisely. Once that's done, I'd go the forums that have been previously mentioned - native plants, animals, reptiles, conservation - and present the idea. Found out who is interested. Ask people to write down their expression of interest, along with what they think they could contribute to the cause - their degrees, experience, contacts, any other specifics. At the same time, I'd start researching what is already known, what other conservation projects are going on the area, etc. Good initial contacts would be any government departments that would have relevant knowledge, as well as national conservation groups like TWS and ACF. Find out what's already going on in these areas, so that you can then establish what needs to be done and by whom. 

You're right - this is a huge job. These are just my ideas on how I've tackled the beginning stages of forming an action group in the past. Hope they are helpful.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 13, 2010)

I have recently been reading survey results that were conducted by the Wilderness Society here in WA on the Greater Western Woodlands. This is an area roughly between Norseman, Hyden and Esperance in WA and is recognized as the largest temperate woodland left on Earth. These results have prompted them into action and strategies have been put into place to safeguard the environment which contains several, at least vulnerably classified animals. It is my opinion that the Wilderness Society is a well respected organization, and the majority of the public will have at least heard of them, this essentially means there voice reaches further and more importantly into higher places. The study I have mentioned has relied on help from many experienced people from many backgrounds including herpetology, It makes sense to me that any affiliation with them would be advantageous, and as they already have a national network they could aid in facilitating the transition from forum discussion to an effective lobby group.
This is purely speculative on my part and I have never had anything to do with the Wilderness Society, But wouldn't it be more effective for a couple of respected people in the Herpetelogical community to lobby like minded groups that have similar ideals, than to try and lobby against our government directly. That's not to say the group shouldn't be formed just that a helping hand wouldn't hurt. 

Steve

Yeah Kristy more or less got everything I said and more in her post. LOL


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 13, 2010)

I agree with you, Steve. It would seem easier to "tack on" to other conservation efforts, if the possibility to do that is there. 

I have worked for TWS. If you'd like to be in contact with them, I can help with that, as well. The campaigners are very switched on.


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 13, 2010)

Gotta go now, but I may PM later I've been thinking of contacting them.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Hello Pythoninfinite

This is what I have written about what you call Reputable Breeders in my essay on the topic of Captive breeding as a Conservation Tool: 
2.	At the opposite end of the spectrum I propose a new, top rung in the Wildlife Keepers hierarchy as defined by the various state wildlife agencies. I propose a new classification called Conservation Keepers. These highly experienced and motivated people will be like auxiliaries to the Parks and Wildlife Service itself. They will be the first recipients of rare and endangered species for captive breeding and will not engage in any form of hybridization of target species. They will work hand in hand with the biologists, permits and compliance people in the park service. Ultimately the young animals produced by Conservation Keepers can be on sold to people in the next most senior level in the Wildlife Keepers hierarchy. Sales may well be facilitated or overseen through the Parks and Wildlife bureaucracy. The Conservation Keepers will be clear beneficiaries of these sales. Conservation keepers will be totally unlike conventional pet owners.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Darlyn

HHHmmmm! Steve ..... I am not sure if I know him, I know a Steve ****** and a Steve ##### but I am not sure about Steve....!!

If he comes along to the Field Naturalists Club meeting tomorrow night at the CDU I will get to know him. I am giving a talk there on Captive Breeding as a Conservation Tool at 7:30, see 
NT Field Naturalists and look under "meetings and Outings", i will be talking about Oenpelli Pythons (believe it or not) How about coming along yourself - the more the better.

Cheers

Slick


Darlyn said:


> Slickturtle said:
> 
> 
> > Who is this Darlyn who brought the conversation back onto topic?!! We were having a great time 'out there' not talking about the topic! Well, to answer your question - I think the Territory Wildlife Park still has one. But no breeding prospects there.
> ...


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## longirostris (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Slick, 

I have been having trouble with my computer so have not been able to post. The thread has moved on considerably since my last post. Not so theological and philosophical now and far more pragmatic which is a good thing. I did enjoy the earlier strain of the thread though it was very thought provoking. Speaking of which here is a comment and question for you.

Having tried unsuccessfully over a period of many years to access rare captive bred progeny from government and quasi government institutions I have become increasingly frustrated with the ridiculous attitude of virtually all state authorities and the people that work within those institutions towards private keepers. 

I like your ideas about establishing keeper categories with the highest echelons of those categories being asked by relevant state authorities to paticipate in conservation programs that they may be interested in. I have been thinking about something along these lines myself for the last few years.

I would love to hear what your thoughts are on the experience/qualifications that would be needed for a private keeper like myself to be considered as a conservation keeper.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks for the input all - till tomorrow - the social secretary is home now, so she's demanding some attention - fair enough I suppose...

Jamie.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi all

We seem to have got bogged down on the issue of whether or not the Oenpelli Python is in decline. And we could be talking about any rare and unknown vertebrate here.

In my view this is not so very important. Look at it this way - if it is in decline and there are only a few left then it is a thing of urgency that we get them out and into safe custody. This is what Prof. Sam Sweet, UCLA, Santa Barbara, California (one of the worlds most experienced field biologists and herpetologists - he just described a new Varanus from Indonesia) said on the topic of the Oenpelli. (I might add that he has spent 2 full years {10 years apart} working every day in the Kakadu sandstone and never saw one) : 

*"There is strong evidence that something is wrong with the stone country and its wet forests, as well-evidenced by the decline in small mammals there. Since Oenpellis, at least as adults, seem keyed in on mammals including bats, it would be reasonable to express concerns about what is happening at the top of the predator pyramid. Is it more, or less acute for pythons in their first couple of years? No one really knows, but adult snakes certainly have more savvy about their home ranges, and of course can go longer between meals. What is known about trends in bat diversity, particularly the crevice-roosting bentwings and horsehoe bats? My concerns would be that the increasing rarity of many small mammals could cut into the reproductive frequency and clutch sizes of adult pythons, and more insidiously make life a great deal harder for juveniles. If this is 'not' so, then concerns about removing some subadult snakes from the wild are lessened, whereas if it is, we could find ourselves in the situation where juvenile survivorship has fallen below a sustainable level, but you'll not know that until the adults die of old age. This is exactly the circumstance that was behind decisions to take species such as whooping cranes and condors into captivity in the US. We are still not out of the woods with these species principally because the world has changed around them -- the old, experienced birds could still make it, but the juveniles cannot, without massive assistance. In these and other cases the captive flocks are insurance, and provide a stream of hopeful youngsters that mostly still all die because the environmental wrongs persist. You are going for a type of insurance involving a diffuse private sector."*

So, if the snakes are on their way out and only a few are left, then we should save the species by bringing it in to safe custody for captive breeding, if nothing else it gives us a chance of reintroduction if we can work out what is wrong out there in the bush. If on the other hand it is not rare and the numbers are good - there is no reason why not to bring some in and get them started in captive breeding. It is the same answer if they are in modest numbers but maybe in decline - bring some in. In others words regardless of whether they are in decline or not, there is no good reason why you would NOT bring some into captive care. If there is, can someone please explain it to me? 

Cheers

Slick


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

The one with the eyes picked out was given to me by a young lady tour guide, I forwarded it on the the Park. It was not very long. She found the poor thing in the middle of the day haplessly wandering about in the Nourlangie Rock car park. It was lucky it wasn't run over. The guide knew exactly what the snake was - which is a big credit to her. She said it was Blue Winged Kookaburras that did the damage!

Cheers


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Spot on Steve. The environmental groups are on our list of people to be brought in - and the Threatened Species Network. The key thing is that it is difficult for all these specialised groups to see the big picture. Ie to put it at its most simplistic - "Australia is under environmental siege and the natural world is diminishing. There has now been time enough to show that the legal and policy framework sponsored by state and Federal agencies is failing to protect species. The only real hope for change lies in the private sector. This include NGO land owners such as Bush Heritage and the Aust Wildlife Conservancy and others, but it also includes academics, biologists, zoos and wildlife parks and finally and importantly 'us' - keen and concerned Australian Wildlife Keepers. All these private sector agencies need to come together to help the Government agencies who are now clearly on the bones of their bums when it comes to saving wildlife. How to get all these people around the same table is the BIG question. I can ultimately see a coalition of experts like this actually leading Government policy rather than being directed by it. A big ask you think? Sure it is but you don't know what can be done if you don't give it a go.

Cheers

Slick


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 13, 2010)

Greg, have you checked out TWS's Wild Country campaign. It is the direction that TWS intend to focus a lot more on than only specific sites, and incorporates a lot of "big picture" science. 

The Wilderness Society &mdash; WildCountry Vision


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

Dr. Gordo... I like it.

Unfortunately for the West Arnhem plateau my background is in education not science. Is there room for those without science backgrounds in these kinds of studies? 

Michael i know you have done some work into chondros, fancy expanding your horizons to my backyard?



Waterrat said:


> Hi Dan,
> has Rick Shine got anyone up there or wanting to work there?
> Otherwise, you two gentleman, would you like to become Dr. Miles and Dr. Gordo? Ohhh, Dr. Gordo has got a ring to it! lol
> 
> ...


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## Waterrat (Jul 13, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Dr. Gordo... I like it.
> 
> Michael i know you have done some work into chondros, fancy expanding your horizons to my backyard?



Ha, ha, actually, I have dome my post-grad studies on Pebble-mound mice _(Pseudomys patrius_) - my friends used to laugh, saying, "you're studying what you used to feed to your snakes".

There you go Dr. Gordo


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## Bushfire (Jul 13, 2010)

Hey Greg,
This is turning into a familiar thread from a few months ago. As I said back then it is a big ask but is one that really needs to be questioned and brought in from the dark. I like your idea and believe thats how we should go but still dont know how to get those who should implement changes to actually do it. Unfortunately I'm betting that the idea is too radical for many groups to get there head around. Most of those environmental groups probably would prefer to channel their efforts through habitat restoration projects. Alot have brought the idea that native animal keepers (read private sector) are one step better than smugglers and poachers.

We have systematically failed the environment to the point that realistically it simply isn't possible to restore it. The absolute best we can hope for is that we dont lose too many species till we get to the point of what we can maintain. Sadly at the speed at which most if any changes happen these days we are going to lose a hell of a lot more.


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## waruikazi (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm sure we have mice in Gunbalanya.... lol



Waterrat said:


> Ha, ha, actually, I have dome my post-grad studies on Pebble-mound mice _(Pseudomys patrius_) - my friends used to laugh, saying, "you're studying what you used to feed to your snakes".
> 
> There you go Dr. Gordo


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## cement (Jul 13, 2010)

Has anyone here been to the Calga Wildlife Park here on the Central Coast. It is a large privately owned property that has an enormous feral proof fence around it and supports native wildlife by ensuring that the habitat within the fence-line is devoid of feral plants and animals. They are having success with some species that have been grown up in the park and released into areas of declining numbers. I can't give specifics as i don't know the full facts, but it is dedicated to ALL native animals, mammals, reptiles, birds etc.
This is another avenue. By setting up smaller feral proof habitats within the local habitat where the animals can be bred in captivity in the confines of dwellings and buildings and also having the land open for the animals that also live in the surrounding landscape.
People can visit, make donations etc, learn about the habitat and its animals and go for a bushwalk and bbq.

On another branch of the tree, Is it possible that a national association is maybe setting the sights too high at this stage?
Could we be better off setting up state associations first, mainly due to travel constraints, cost and different state laws, who are affiliated with each other with a national body as a goal further down the path?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

A general note to all -

A few people have kindly sent me PM's. I have tried to answer each one but for some reason I get messages back saying it did not get through and I have to talk to Santa or someone to get it fixed. So if you have sent me something and not heard back I am sorry but I think it is because I am too old to work in forums or should it be fora?

Similarly - some people want to be my friend; but I don't know what that means - Is it catching? I am not on Face Book - does that make me an anti-geek?

I have a lot to learn.

Thanks

Slick


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Hi Cement - friend of Huey

I wonder if Calga is Barry and Adam Cohen's place. They would be good people to have on side. Thanks for the tip.
Cheers

Slick


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 13, 2010)

You're the best, mate


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## Slickturtle (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks Kristy

You are in the know!

Cheers

Slick


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 14, 2010)

Those who support the taking-into-captivity-for-reasons-of-securing-species argument should all be mindful of what bushfire has said. It isn't only clumsy and primitive-thinking bureaucracies who will oppose the notion, there are all the animal rights groups and allied organisations who will be outraged by the prospect. They are VERY politically savvy, well entrenched in government already, and are very well funded. They oppose what we are doing NOW, and will definitely be motivated to act against any move to take more of our animals into captivity. They toil away in the background, using the cover of 'welfare' (which has little to do with 'rights'). 

We need to present our arguments with as much energy and zeal as they do to prosecute their own idealogical points of view. 

Jamie.


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## Waterrat (Jul 14, 2010)

There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their _conservations status_, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?

Michael


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## waruikazi (Jul 14, 2010)

Surely you would need to look at suitability to a captive environment. For example, keeping leather back turtles in captive populations probably wouldn't be a feasible option. But if we are talking about conservation breeding the conservation status would have to be paramount in selecting animals. If it isn't then the beauocracy will tear holes in the idea.



Waterrat said:


> There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their _conservations status_, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?
> 
> Michael


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## Waterrat (Jul 14, 2010)

Here is an example Gordo: Native GTP's conservation status has been recently changed from _rare_ to _near threatened_. Not that they are near threatened, the rare status was crapped, it's no longer applied as such. The species is perfectly safe and there is no doubt about it. The entire population is withing NP, which is buffered by more NP through different forest types, there is no evidence of decline and given the current prices poaching is not viable.

The two endemic reptiles inhabiting Black Mountain near Cooktown have very limited distribution but are they in any sort of danger? I am sure you could think of many more examples in your neck of woods, so *which species would qualify*?


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 14, 2010)

This coming Sunday July 18th, Wildlife Preservation Society of Queensland are holding a a wildlife expo at Beaudesert SE Qld

(and yes there will be a reptile display at this venue). 
Go to their website to see a schedule of events: Wildlife Preservation Society of Queensland 
I beleive there will be one or two influential people participating in this event

As the old saying goes, "scratch my back and I will scratch yours" If we reptile keepers support this group I am sure they will support our cause

Cheers
Sandee


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## Slickturtle (Jul 14, 2010)

Hi Hydromys

here is what I wrote in my essay about what you raise here: -
There is a need to develop the lists of animals which may or may not be the subject of captive breeding. There will be 4 categories each within the groupings of birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians and fishes: -
1.	*Those animals which are secure and not in need of captive breeding intervention.* This does not mean that people should not keep them if they wish. These may be the animals with which children, within families, begin their keeping careers.
2.	*Those animals in need of intervention but which have specialised captive needs and are generally beyond the abilities of private keepers*. These animals could be the focus the major zoos, wildlife parks and the AWC. These would include species such as Tassie Devils, Platypus, cassowaries, raptors and koalas.
3.	*Those animals which are small and ‘uncharismatic’ and would not (for the most part) be sought after by private keepers.* In the reptile world these would be many of the smaller skinks and maybe blind snakes. This is not to say that there would not be a thriving Blind Snake Keepers Association in the future!
4.	Finally, and the primary focus of this exercise, are *those animals which are suitable for captive living, are in need of conservation intervention and are desirable/rewarding to keep.* These are the primary ‘target species’. Permits to take, keep and breed Target Species would not be given out willie nillie. Only people with demonstrable experience and skill (Conservation Keepers) would be permitted to take and keep ‘high value” target species such as Oenpelli Pythons or Egernia obiri (if it is still extant.) Each state would have an expert peer committee which would oversee high end permit applications in concert with the relevant park agency. The Park official need not have the final say.




Waterrat said:


> There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their _conservations status_, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?
> 
> Michael


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## waruikazi (Jul 14, 2010)

I do understand what you are saying. But you know aswell as i do that there is more to an animals conservation status than just the labels *vunerable, endagered and critically endangered.* For those who don't know to qualify a particular Australian conservation status the animal only has to qualify in one of the set criteria. So it is possible for an animal to be listed as critically endangered without it being under any past, present or future reduction in numbers. 

Hrmmmm i appear to have just argued in agreement with what you have been saying Michael. Maybe the individual categories should be looked at when selecting which animals need saving.



Waterrat said:


> Here is an example Gordo: Native GTP's conservation status has been recently changed from _rare_ to _near threatened_. Not that they are near threatened, the rare status was crapped, it's no longer applied as such. The species is perfectly safe and there is no doubt about it. The entire population is withing NP, which is buffered by more NP through different forest types, there is no evidence of decline and given the current prices poaching is not viable.
> 
> The two endemic reptiles inhabiting Black Mountain near Cooktown have very limited distribution but are they in any sort of danger? I am sure you could think of many more examples in your neck of woods, so *which species would qualify*?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 14, 2010)

Yes bredislave, you are absolutely right. It is critically important that we get all these environmental groups on side. I am sure that they would support what we are talking about here if they knew the Big Picture. As I said earlier not many people "get it" yet. Our job is largely a public awareness campaign so that like minded people and this includes Wildlife Carers can see what we can see. I have even been writing to PETA in the US and the RSPCA to explain to them that we are all moving into a new world of "Captivity or Extinction" for many species. I put it on the table and asked "Do you prefer extinction over quality captivity for ,say, quolls. This sends even animal rights groups into a tailspin of moral anguish. I had a great email discussion with one of the principle public relations officers of PETA In LA USA along these lines. She ended up declaring that she loved me!! I don't know if that progressed the debate much but it was an interesting outcome.

Cheers

Slick


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## Waterrat (Jul 14, 2010)

Slick and Gordo, I take on board what's in front of me. I just thought that in case of reptiles particularly, the list will be very short.

Gordo, the status is often slapped onto a species based on wrong data / evidence percieved by the bureaucrats but not backed up by scientists. I keep my eyes on GTPs closely and one of the blunders the QPWS has done when assessing it against the criteria, they *assumed* that the population consists of less that 3000 adults. What a .....! Makes you wonder if they bothered to read Dave Wilson's papers. The other criteria was poaching - I commented on that above.


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## waruikazi (Jul 14, 2010)

Lol Greg i thought they were only allowed to love animals? Like ostriches and goats and stuff :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 14, 2010)

Be mindful of the fact that animal rights groups enjoy the fight as much as reaching their objectives, they are worldwide in their influence & scope, and several of them have warchests in the millions of dollars. They are currently very active in trying to close down the reptile industry in the US, the NSW minimum stardards stuff has more than a whiff of this influence, which means they've tapped a nerve in government here, and may very well be residing within the department... As I said earlier, logic as we see it may not work with them, it never does with idealogical zealots.

Before any proposals are made to change the way we do things with and for fauna, we need to have reasonable answers to all the negatives which will be thrown at us. Only then will we have a fighting chance.

Slick, maybe she saw the picks of you & your gorgeous shorts...

J.


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 14, 2010)

Hey Slick

I love ya too, coz your FOR THE ANIMALS 

Cheers
Sandee


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their _conservations status_, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?
> 
> Michael



maybe in cases such as the Oenpelli python, rather than trying to agree on it's status, I think a points based method on deciding whether a species deserves further investigation would be more effective, act as if the conservation status didn't exist. As a group use a consistent method to identify what species deserves further attention and research, once you have identified a species, then work out a research and study plan. That way when it comes to lobbying, instead of standing in front of the powers that be and telling them that you think we need to study this, you can present them with the criteria you have used to reach that decision.that criteria could be constructed around the Oenpelli python to kick start it, hopefully there would be success and then when government agencies are presented with a new species using the same criteria it would be hard for them to argue against it.

Steve


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## Waterrat (Jul 14, 2010)

Good point Steve, the research side of it is going to be very involving and complicated. Finding a suitable researcher attached to a reputable institution, research funding, ethics committee approval, the list goes on - will involve very lengthy process. Rick Shine had several students working in NT over the years, they would know the ropes. 

Michael


PS. something from Sydney: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...ackyard-to-city-outksirts-20100712-107yy.html


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Good point Steve, the research side of it is going to be very involving and complicated. Finding a suitable researcher attached to a reputable institution, research funding, ethics committee approval, the list goes on - will involve very lengthy process. Rick Shine had several students working in NT over the years, they would know the ropes.
> 
> Michael
> 
> ...



I think this approach would end up being totally unworkable - cumbersome, time consuming and very costly. I doubt you would get an objective assessment at any but the final, feet on the ground, research stage.

What needs to be done, more than anything, is to change the collective bureaucratic view that Australian fauna in captivity, or becoming commodified, is something to be regarded as horrific.

It doesn't matter if an animal is threatened, endangered or common. Being threatened is a further justification for establishing a captive breeding group, and simply adds urgency to the case. If not endangered, but still desirable, then there is no point in preventing a species coming into captivity. We've spoken mostly of iconic species here, but I know enthusiasts who love even Leristas, so there should be something for everyone.

Changing bureaucratic thinking is absolutely the most important aim here - we are doing things with reptiles now that wouldn't have been thought possible 20 years ago (not all good, I agree), the culture moves ahead at a great rate, but the bureucracies are mired in thinking that's more appropriate to 50 years ago.

Can I ask if any of the major participants in this debate have any notional objection to collecting a species simply because it is desired in captivity?

Jamie


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## waruikazi (Jul 14, 2010)

I have a problem with the way some desired species may be brought into the pet trade. At a stretch i think you could call it sour grapes. I don't like the idea that a few people may make hundreds of thousands of dollars to line their own pockets out of these animals. 

The money, i think, should be reinvested into community development projects (where the original animals were collected from indigenous land) or conservation efforts. But no i don't have a problem with any animal used sustainably for any humane purpose.


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## DanN (Jul 14, 2010)

Hi Jaime/Greg,

I suggest you get in touch with Prof. Mike Archer. I would presume you know about his work and desire to see native species as pets? The conservation benefits are no secret. I think Mike's project is call FATE and is aimed at doing exactly what you propose. In his case, however, he applies it to mammals - specifically Quolls.

Google him for contact details.

Dan


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## Waterrat (Jul 14, 2010)

I don't the same problem that Gordo has, I don't care who makes what or how much through their captive breeding efforts. It would be different if hundreds and thousands of dollars were made from wild caught animals.
My problem is, IF reptiles are going to be sources from the wild, they, nor their progeny should be hybridised, morphed or genetically manipulated in any way. Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose to what is happening right now (and on a big scale) but this new project should be about keeping pure locality lines. ... not an easy strategy to map out.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 14, 2010)

Hi Dan

Mike and I talk often. We appeared together on the ABC's Background Briefing show called the Native Pet debate a couple of months ago. You can hear the podcast or read the transcript here - Background Briefing - 11 April 2010 - The great native pet debate

Cheers

Slick


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## cement (Jul 14, 2010)

Can I ask if any of the major participants in this debate have any notional objection to collecting a species simply because it is desired in captivity?

I don't consider myself a major participant but consider this....... If the sales of these animals is recorded, as it should be with these "special" species then firstly the people who put time and effort into the project should at least be re-imbursed. This financial management should have guidelines to follow and be TRANSPARENT, upon receiving re-imbursement there can be a cut off point where after on costs are continually provided for, anything left over goes into a coffer for more research etc.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 14, 2010)

I think you mean they should NOT be ....

I am with you Waterrat. The key thing is that species are "preserved" without cruelty. I share your view about hybridising but at the same time I don't think that this will be a big problem so long as (as you say) this activity is kept at arms length from the conservation motivation.

I am waiting to see a VaranusXElapid cross - now that would be something!!

Cheers

Slick

Slick.


Waterrat said:


> I don't the same problem that Gordo has, I don't care who makes what or how much through their captive breeding efforts. It would be different if hundreds and thousands of dollars were made from wild caught animals.
> My problem is, IF reptiles are going to be sources from the wild, they, nor their progeny should be hybridised, morphed or genetically manipulated in any way. Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose to what is happening right now (and on a big scale) but this new project should be about keeping pure locality lines. ... not an easy strategy to map out.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 14, 2010)

Sounds OK to me. I would like to keep some of those WA Simoselaps!



cement said:


> Can I ask if any of the major participants in this debate have any notional objection to collecting a species simply because it is desired in captivity?
> 
> I don't consider myself a major participant but consider this....... If the sales of these animals is recorded, as it should be with these "special" species then firstly the people who put time and effort into the project should at least be re-imbursed. This financial management should have guidelines to follow and be TRANSPARENT, upon receiving re-imbursement there can be a cut off point where after on costs are continually provided for, anything left over goes into a coffer for more research etc.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 14, 2010)

*Food for the feeders*

Here is a question for all of you.

I have been troubled by this : -

If you are keeping small reptiles which mainly eat other reptiles or frogs (Burtons legless lizards for instance) how do you get food for them without being accused of animal libbers of killing lots of native reptiles to feed a few?
In other words, is there a way that you could keep these kind of things without having to sacrifice other native animals to feed them?

Over to you.

Slick


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 14, 2010)

Slick
Such specific feeders in my opinion will never be kept widely enough for this to be a concern, there are a few I believe that will eventually take pinky's etc but the difficulty in getting them feeding will be to great for any real interest in keeping them outside science and conservation groups etc. I believe some states allow the taking of certain small species for food.
I photographed my first _S bertholdi _and _S semifascialatus _about a month ago absolutely incredible animals I to would like to keep them.

Back on subject. I disagree somewhat on animals being collected for the pet trade. Say for instance in trying to gain permission to take and establish the Oenpelli, as soon as bureaucrats catch the slightest hint of people profiting of these animals they will use it as an excuse not to grant the permission necessary. Its possible you will get resistance from people within herpetology circles as well. I know there is some in WA that are very unhappy about RSP's being taken as they believe it was purely for pet trade purposes. I personally don't have an opinion on this, but suggest as soon as the money comes into it people will jump up and down even more, and claim that conservation is not the true motivation behind bringing this species into captivity.

Steve


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 14, 2010)

I need to point out that for most of the species here discussed, the 'pet trade' is WAY down the line, it doesn't feature on my radar at all when species such as Oenpelli Pythions are concerned. As with the RSP, many obligations would have to be fulfilled before such a species became available to the 'trade.' I have a strong link with the RSP story and WA, and most of the disquiet coming from that side of the country is sour grapes - JW has done something absolutely unique in the history of herpetoculture in this country. Any complaints should be directed to DEC in WA, who have a totally unreasonable restriction on the import of that WA species, and have stubbornly refused to consider that it makes a perfectly reasonable addition to the species allowed list. The costs involved in collecting them, and the work that went into breeding them means that there is not much profit from the enterprise at the end of the day. 

The same goes for any hard to collect wild species, the costs involved in collecting, without any guarantee of success (this was certainly the case with the RSP) mean that 'profit' is a very subjective term. The big bucks are made by people who breed morphs such as albinos, which turn up free of charge in their incubators occasionally.

Collecting and breeding the Nawaran is very unlikely to make the breeder rich...

Jamie.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 15, 2010)

Hi Steve

I understand where you are coming from re commercialisation. But the reality is that if that negative view persists them we might as well give up now and let numerous species slip into extinction without a fight. This is because it is essential for animal breeders to be able to sell their young in order to pay for the expenses of setting up a quality breeding facility. My own case is a good example. I breed Pig Nosed Turtles which were listed as Vulnerable at the time that I applied to get adult breeders. I built the facility myself but it still cost more than $12,000. If I had others build it the price would have been more like $30,000. Now, if I knew that I could not sell the babies I would not have done it. And niether will others. If you cannot sell young animals then breeding will not happen at the scale that is needed to maintain numbers out of the Endangered category.

The second part is that if you cannot sel your young animals what do you do with them. You are not allowed to release them into the wild. So this means that you would have to give them away. Does this make sense - I spend $12,000 to breed turtles and then give them away? I don't think so. In addition, if people don't pay a goodly amount of money for an animal they are less likely to care for it. On the other hand, if someone buys one of my tuurtles for $800 I am going to be reasonably assured that they are going to care for it well.

The cash flow in this scenario is the lubricant that allows the conservation wheels to turn. Without lubricant, the wheels will stop and there will be no conservation role for captive breeding.

Cheers

Slick


- A


steve1 said:


> Slick
> Such specific feeders in my opinion will never be kept widely enough for this to be a concern, there are a few I believe that will eventually take pinky's etc but the difficulty in getting them feeding will be to great for any real interest in keeping them outside science and conservation groups etc. I believe some states allow the taking of certain small species for food.
> I photographed my first _S bertholdi _and _S semifascialatus _about a month ago absolutely incredible animals I to would like to keep them.
> 
> ...


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## shiregirl (Jul 15, 2010)

This is probably one of the best threads i have read on here since joining lol. I haven't been on for months thinking it would be the same old, same old, but quite refreshing to see a discussion such as this rather than name my snake threads. Good to see! May log back in more often 

Ps: Maybe not after being traumatised by those short shorts pic!  My eyes!!!


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 15, 2010)

Jamie and Slick, I totally agree with you guys and believe that people should be remunerated for their time, effort and money spent, in fact it is an essential ingredient to the success of such a plan. My post was aimed at giving a point of view from someone steadfastly opposed to Oenpelli pythons being placed in captivity.

Jamie, I agree it is mostly sour grapes and complaint should be directed at DEC. I intended no disrespect to those involved with the RSP's story, There is a great article in the latest Scales&Tails magazine that gives some insight in to the time and effort put into this species.

Slick, I have looked at the pics of your turtle farm they are incredible. Is it open to the public?

Steve


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## waruikazi (Jul 15, 2010)

If you ask slick very nicely i'm sure he would be more than happy to give you a tour. I went over and had a look yesterday, took all my effort (and the fact i'm stone broke) to not come away with a little piggy lol. It is definately a first class setup and i could only dream of doing something similar. 

I also went to Greg's talk last night. His idea is definatley one that is going to be gaining momentum in the short and long term and he definatley has a silver bullet argument for the all the anti people that he will come up against.



steve1 said:


> Jamie and Slick, I totally agree with you guys and believe that people should be remunerated for their time, effort and money spent, in fact it is an essential ingredient to the success of such a plan. My post was aimed at giving a point of view from someone steadfastly opposed to Oenpelli pythons being placed in captivity.
> 
> Jamie, I agree it is mostly sour grapes and complaint should be directed at DEC. I intended no disrespect to those involved with the RSP's story, There is a great article in the latest Scales&Tails magazine that gives some insight in to the time and effort put into this species.
> 
> ...


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 15, 2010)

I have just got around to reading Slicks link to, the great native pet debate on the previous page, it makes for some good reading, what may be of interest also is the reader comments at the end, in particularly the first one, which gives good insight into the mentality of some people that will be staunchly opposed to any attempt at bringing Oenpelli's into captivity or any other native for that matter.

Steve


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## Slickturtle (Jul 15, 2010)

Hi Steve and all
My place is only open to people called Steve!!!

As for your comments on the Great native Pet debate - I show here for all to read from the person opposing keeping native animals - she said: 
Susie Hearder :
23 Apr 2010 5:37:40pm

"Suggest before you make any comments that you 
1. become a wildlife carer to see what is truly involved.
2. volunteer at a local pound/shelter and see a cute puppy wagging its tail as it is put to death ( this happens every 4 minutes in Australia so not hard to find ) 
3. travel to inland Australia and see Budgies in the wild. 
4. spend a day living in a small cage as most pet Budgies do 
( I know I'd rather be extinct.)

Hasn't been much mention of quality of life for the poor wildlife!

Ponder the thought - who is it that doesn't really belong here - could it be us humans who couldn't really give a rats about any other species than ourselves. 
There are thousands of other groups out there other than the RSPCA mopping up the bloodshed of the current pet industry. 
Whats rare for these volunteers is finding responsible pet owners and thats for pets where you can buy their food in a tin at the local shop. The dogs are being discarded as easily as the tin can.
Humans being an endangered species - now theres an idea! Other species might have half a chance then.
Fancy living in a cage for the rest of your life then."

I reckon that if I sat down with this woman for a hour, there is a good chance that she would come away with the opposite point of view.

I base this on the premise that the average person out there has no idea of what is really happening. If the realities are explained it would take a very strange person NOT to take our view. For the most part - this woman has no idea what she is talking about.
Cheers

Slick



steve1 said:


> I have just got around to reading Slicks link to, the great native pet debate on the previous page, it makes for some good reading, what may be of interest also is the reader comments at the end, in particularly the first one, which gives good insight into the mentality of some people that will be staunchly opposed to any attempt at bringing Oenpelli's into captivity or any other native for that matter.
> 
> Steve


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## Waterrat (Jul 15, 2010)

I wonder what credentials Susie has got to make make such suggestion. Has she studied wildlife, biology, ecology or is she a wildlife specialist vet? Would she know the differences between lower and higher vertebrates?
I trust she has got a good hart, feelings for animals, appreciation for nature and good ethics but those pink glasses really don't suit her. Loving and understanding animals are two different things (though not mutually exclusive).

M


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 15, 2010)

Wow don't I feel privileged to be called Steve but I get the feeling this may be based on which day of the week it is, Wednesdays being only for people called Gordon, LOL. Unfortunately I can't just drop in, however I have a family member who just so happens to have bought a property in Humpty Doo, so maybe one day.

I agree you probably could turn her opinions around in an hour, but how do you reach the very noisy army of followers behind her, as her attitudes seem to be quite similar to the prevailing attitudes of the government departments you have to convince otherwise.

Please excuse the negative tone of my posts but they are realistic hurdles that will eventually have to be faced. When aiming for the most positive outcome you still need to plan for the worst


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 15, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> I understand where you are coming from re commercialisation. But the reality is that if that negative view persists them we might as well give up now and let numerous species slip into extinction without a fight. This is because it is essential for animal breeders to be able to sell their young in order to pay for the expenses of setting up a quality breeding facility. My own case is a good example. I breed Pig Nosed Turtles which were listed as Vulnerable at the time that I applied to get adult breeders. I built the facility myself but it still cost more than $12,000. If I had others build it the price would have been more like $30,000. Now, if I knew that I could not sell the babies I would not have done it. And niether will others. If you cannot sell young animals then breeding will not happen at the scale that is needed to maintain numbers out of the Endangered category.
> 
> The second part is that if you cannot sel your young animals what do you do with them. You are not allowed to release them into the wild. So this means that you would have to give them away. Does this make sense - I spend $12,000 to breed turtles and then give them away? I don't think so. In addition, if people don't pay a goodly amount of money for an animal they are less likely to care for it. On the other hand, if someone buys one of my tuurtles for $800 I am going to be reasonably assured that they are going to care for it well.
> 
> ...



I agree with you 100% on this, Greg, as I voiced earlier in the thread. 

It's for the reasons that you have mentioned that I think that there could be some overlap between captive-breeding conservation programs and the pet industry. If you have taken the time, effort, and hard-earned dollars to establish a bevy of turtles from a vulnerable population, then of course people should be paying a higher price for them. The same as people in the pet industry will pay a higher price for a quality-line of pedigree Husky. 

The hardest part of conservation is always the money involved in saving/relocating/surveying a species - introducing the idea of a conservation plan or captive breeding program that is partly funded by the pet-trade is, I think, a very viable solution. I agree with you as well that the more people pay for an animal, the more likely they are to be dedicated to its proper care. I, for one, am all for it.



steve1 said:


> I agree you probably could turn her opinions around in an hour, but how do you reach the very noisy army of followers behind her, as her attitudes seem to be quite similar to the prevailing attitudes of the government departments you have to convince otherwise.
> 
> Please excuse the negative tone of my posts but they are realistic hurdles that will eventually have to be faced. When aiming for the most positive outcome you still need to plan for the worst



I also agree with Steve on this point, though. To take the position of the "noisy rabble" that is passionate about animal rights and wants to protect those death-row puppies, even if only by making a bit of noise, is a lot easier for Joe Bloggs on the street to take. I can't imagine that there would be strong support of this new way of thinking by the general public. But perhaps we can lead by example, and show them the way


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 15, 2010)

I wouldn't be optimistic that spending an hour with one animal rights activist would cause a change in that individual, even in the long run - the movement is very 'clubbish' and peer pressure is huge, as mentioned, there would be outrage at such a turnaround. 

I agree that in an ideal world, consensus is the way to go, but this will never happen in the scenario we are discussing here. The important thing is to recognise and acknowledge the enemy (my word) and face them head on. If your voice is loud and logical, you'll beat them because logic is not their strong suit. However, they are persistent, subtle, and very skilled at getting in on the ground floor, often laying the rules by which those they oppose have to follow.

There is a limit to how 'touchy feely' I'd be prepared to get with these guys (although they seem to be mostly gals from what I see in the press...)

Jamie


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

Ok I may as well put my foot in the fire again!
im still struggling to grasp what this idea has to do with the conservation of the animal?
or is this just a ploy to get a few of this species on licence for private collections? Im not at all against this either as i would love as much as anyone to own one of these great pythons but im just wondering why only a certin group of people would be granted this and not others? 
Im just wondering what the objectives of the group in control of this project would be? (if it is not for the private keeping and sale of the species)
from what i can gather there would not be any strict breeding program to ensure genetics are suitable for a release if needed? 
there would only be a small few granted permission to keep these animals (even though the example used of the RSP's success is based on the fact that everyone can now have their own one)?
if these animals were bred and offered to the public would their price be in the hundreds so that everyone could afford to get one and breed it and increase the captive population or would it be in the high thousands so that only a few would be sold each year and someone gets quite wealthy in the process?(like weigel did)
would this group be interested in the "breeding for conservation" of other less attractive species?


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## Bushfire (Jul 15, 2010)

Slick would be able to give you a better idea of the concept but to me the whole concept is about making sure at risk species live beyond another one or two of our generations.

On a whole, government are only prepared to throw x amount of money to the environment. Sadly this figure is miles short of the actual amount needed to maintain the existing bushland we have. This isn't anyone working in those areas fault, you will find the majority of them extremely passionate people that can only do with what was given. Therefore the bush is in decline till we get to the point of what we can maintain. Realistically for many species to survive they either have to adapt to our changing of their habitat to suit our management practices or go extinct. Many are fast tracking to the extinct side at an alarming rate. But those on that track have one not yet available option to live beyond the next 20 to 50 years and that is life in captivity. With the issues of climate change and those above, these animals may never get to the point of being able to be released. Should we just accept them as past of the past only available as pictures or bring them into private hands where we can ensure their exist in some way.

The objectives of such a group of keepers is to get the species going so that our grandchildren could have a chance to experience them. I imagine the prices would vary as the ones we keep now do. Considering how much weigel paid to get the species I'm not sure he had as much as others believe but if he did he fully deserves it. If some people get rich ensuring some species exist so be it. Thats the hard part to sell as many cant/don't see the situation as it is developing and don't believe people should profit from our wildlife. They cant/don't want to see the bigger picture. As pointed out earlier we have people in this country that will rather see a species extinct than in captivity.

P.S For those species deemed unattractive for private keeper either zoos pick up the breeding program or it goes extinct. This radical project IMO is about minimising the losses instead of save everything, we would prefer the later but realistically it isn't possible. We all sadly must accept that losses are unavoidable.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2010)

well that is my point! it seems this is not about the conservation of the species but more to get the species into private collections (I am in no way against this at all either) but if this is the case what would the "new" organisation/group be for? why wouldnt this just come under the private keepers banner and we all have one?


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## nathancl (Jul 15, 2010)

It would be better in a way to organise a permit similar to that of what the Lattas have which permits them to breed and release the offspring. this would be ideal for threatened/rare species. due to certain authorities being opposed to give out permits for bringing animals into captivity for the hobby the release of offspring is more of a conservation thing and therefore could perhaps be more appealing? 

However in saying that there needs to be research into the effects that the released animals would have on the eco systems. The wild population as it is may be rare or small due to the way the eco system works and not due to human impact. 

oenpellis for example may have a small population that is sustainable but small for a reason unknown to us at this time. releasing more into the habitat with success may then take its toll on another part of that eco system and it would be like a chain reaction.

just random thoughts of mine.


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## Bushfire (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm sure Slick will explain it must better as its his project I only gave my interpretion of it which could very well be wrong.

I think its very much so is about conservation. Look at the RSP, its a very limited and restricted habitat that is highly suspect able to threats. It wouldn't take much to wipe them out as oppose to say the bearded dragon which would be harder to wipe out. The RSP, may well always had a small population but having a captive population ensures that species if / when disaster strikes, the species isn't totally lost, it may become extinct in the wild but not forever lost. Isn't that species future outlook at least a little brighter than totally gone? How is that not in part conserving the species? Of course we should also try to conserve the wild populations but at this stage we are failing and as government budgets continue to be tightened its highly likely we will continue to fail.

For the group's aim would be to increase numbers that will filter through to private collections. These animals need to be put into the best hands to ensure we can have the best chances of keeping them alive. Once their numbers are built up release to the other private keepers. This staged approach, will lessen the chances of the cative population crashing due to inexperience. Let the most experienced understand the captive requirements and develop the information needed by the other keepers to be sucessful.


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## Daz_McC (Jul 15, 2010)

This is a very thought-provoking thread. I'm wondering how the government decides who gets to keep these threatened reptiles. Do the elite keepers select themselves or should they have to sit some sort of exam to test their knowledge? Perhaps the herp societies can nominate their top keepers. Or maybe charge people $50,000 per breeding pair. That way only the most successful keepers will be tempted to have a crack at breeding them. And the money raised from handing them over to keepers can be spent on conserving the wild population. Anyway, just some late-night ideas.


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2010)

Daz_McC, would you like to be one of the selected breeders and pay 100K for a couple of pairs, provide the facility and your time at your expense and then hand over money you make from breeding them? Just curious.


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## FAY (Jul 16, 2010)

Ummm so the very well off get the look in??
Some of the BEST breeders may not have that type of money.


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## mungus (Jul 16, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Daz_McC, would you like to be one of the selected breeders and pay 100K for a couple of pairs, provide the facility and your time at your expense and then hand over money you make from breeding them? Just curious.



I would.
BUT...........They would have to pay for power, feed etc.
Most of all, they would be paying me a wage also.........say $70 an hour @ an 8 hour day.
Due to the fact it would have to be a business deal due to the money involved.
No longer a hobby imo.


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2010)

No longer a hobby whichever way you look at it. It would require commitment, responsibility, investment, knowledge, experience and ethics.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2010)

The last few posts seem to imply that this program would be designed & run by private keepers, for the potential benefit of those private keepers. This is well removed from the way it would have to work.

Private keepers would be selected on the basis of their technical expertise and their ethical history and ethical point of view. This MUST be done by an independent arbiter, very likely the state 'conservation' body. Some will regard this as elitism, but if those 'elite' breeders have the runs on the board and a demonstrated, strong ethical history, they should definitely be in the running for consideration. personally, I think Peter Krausss should be amongst the first to be considered if he was interested, notwithstanding his brush with the law with these animals - he has definitely got the expertise, and more history with Oenpellis than anyone else in the country.

The suggestions that Daz_McC has put forward would probably be fraught with problems - Herp Societies are no more noble than any other group when it comes to ethics. Charging a huge sum would similarly not guarantee that the best choice is made - it would be very open to corruption.

Who knows, this species may be very like the Boelen's Python in a recent thread here - the species has defied some of the best breeders in the world when it comes to breeding. Oenpellis aren't something you can just go out and collect when you feel like it, and when serious searching does begin, it could be hugely a expensive exercise. If I recall, JW undertook almost 20 trips to the remote Kimberley when researching and collecting the RSP, and people still begrudge the early prices on the first captive bred animals...

I don't think money comes into the equation for the first one or two captive-bred generations. As soon as the lure of the dollar is part of the deal, the early and most important part of the project will be corrupted - there are many very experienced keepers out there who would give their right arm to be part of a project like this simply for the love of the animals and the challenge it presents. They're the ones who should be sought at this point in time. Once you have 50-100 animals established in captivity (wild-caught and their progeny), only then would you consider putting a value on animals bred from them, and they could be released at a fixed price on a ballot system, to others with considerable experience. (To be eligible for the ballot, you must demonstrate a satisfactory history). From then on, they could go into the open market.

This would ensure that good numbers were in the hands of experienced keepers well before they become available to Joe Blow.

Jamie.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Farma

Your questions are good ones and it is important to ask them so that the people behind this new push can test their own convictions. It is much better that people like you throw up any unforeseen conceptual problem now - than have it happen in some auditorium full of people and parks officials. 

Bushfire and Pythoninfinite have answered you very well, but I will take it a bit further in terms of "conservation" Is it conservation? For a long time I avoided this word as I struggled with the idea of having animals in captivity, but extinct in the wild as 'conservation'. I always called what we are talking about as an "Anti - extinction strategy" (and it is that too) But then I turned to the dictionaries and here is what they say: 

The Shorter Oxford English Dic defines conservation as: “ The action of conserving; preservation from destructive influences, decay or waste”. 

The IUCN/UNEP/WWF, World Conservation Strategy (1980) defines it as:
“Conservation is the management of human use of the biosphere so that it may
yield the greatest sustainable benefit to present generations while maintaining its
potential to meet the needs and aspirations of the future generations.”

So, by dictionary definition I would argue that taking animals into a safe setting where they are otherwise unsafe in the bush is Conservation. 

So, the breeding of rare animals in captivity whether it is by fat cats looking to make a big buck or a struggling amateur IS conservation. IMO

A good example (although coming at it from a different angle) of this happened recently in Victoria. The Brush Tailed Rock Wallaby is endangered in Victoria (there are some in NSW too but rare everywhere.) The big bushfires of 2 years ago totally wiped out the Victorian population. But because of captive breeding and remnant wild populations in NSW it is possible to reintroduce them. But when you look at the Oenpelli Python (also rare) if some disaster overtakes it, there is no other population anywhere to reintroduce. But if there were a couple of thousand captive bred ones in private hands - then there is always a possibility of a return to the wild. (BUT, in saying that I am well aware of the likely success of a reintroduction - very slim).

That was a good question Farma - keep it up.

That is all

Slick


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## Slickturtle (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Dazmc

The way I see it is that the government is a passive monster asleep on the job. It seems as though anyone who wants to apply to catch and breed a rare animal has to tip toe up to it with exhaustive application in hand like a male spider approaching a female. Your words suggest that the park service is actively considering these things. I get the impression (in most states anyway - the NT is pretty good) that the captive breeding initiatives have to be dreamed up, funded, written up and otherwise pursued in an atmosphere of disinterest at best and more likely, resistance and suspicion from the Government. One way to tackle this passive resistance that the Government shows towards private individuals trying to help save wildlife is to work through an existing recognised conservation organisation. Have a look at the FAME website. 
FAME - Foundation for Australia's Most Endangered Species Inc.
This is just thinking out loud now but I put it "out there" to consider. I wonder if people like us could connect "limpet like" to FAME or its equivalent in each state and form an interlinked network within that organisation which specialises in captive breeding. The main danger of this of course would be conforming to that organisations constitution which might say that no one can privately keep the products of their captive breeding. But on the plus side, Nat parks might be much less resistant to ideas coming forward from a recognised NGO conservation group.

That is all - {that is enough!!}

Slick



Daz_McC said:


> This is a very thought-provoking thread. I'm wondering how the government decides who gets to keep these threatened reptiles. Do the elite keepers select themselves or should they have to sit some sort of exam to test their knowledge? Perhaps the herp societies can nominate their top keepers. Or maybe charge people $50,000 per breeding pair. That way only the most successful keepers will be tempted to have a crack at breeding them. And the money raised from handing them over to keepers can be spent on conserving the wild population. Anyway, just some late-night ideas.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Fay

The In an ideal world the Parks Service should be advertising right now for interested parties to set up captive breeding of rare and endangered animals. In the same way that they advertise for any company to provide long term goods or services - such as interpretive services. They could set the parameters and see what offers come in. They would then choose who they believe can deliver the best outcome and give them an ongoing contract. Funding of the breeding contract would come from sales of the products with a royalty going to Parks to fund their costs in administering the contract. The contract would only last for a few years as the prices for the products would come down over time as the animals become more common. Then Parks could run a new ad for a different species. Any given company could have multiple contracts involving multiple species running simultaneously. As they sell the product out into the private sector each animal would be accompanied with Care Sheets and contact details of which specialist in the company can give husbandry advice. The company would also maintain stud books and a record of sales that Parks could follow.

There is an idea.

Slick


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## jahan (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Slick, We all pay our licence fee`s to keep our reptiles, Would a levy of say $2/5 on our fees fund a project like that?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2010)

There would be many people unhappy about the gouging of funds via the licensing system.

Jamie.


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## Slickturtle (Jul 16, 2010)

I don't know Jahan

It is an interesting question. If for instance we are talking about Nat Parks sponsoring these breeding initiatives for just threatened species - then I would hope/think that people would be willing to pay what would amount to a "Conservation Levy" which would be a fund that would be used to advance conservation efforts for other threatened species. Even if all of this fund went into the Parks admin systems I would see this as being OK provided that the return on the money was Parks being proactive in supporting the production of threatened species to go out into the community into private (or company) hands. It could be that parks insist that the producing company do a little on site test to gauge the ability and or commitment of a prospective new owners of an animal. This could involve showing proof of an existing license to keep wildlife. All this depends on the species of course. Because this whole deal is aimed at conservation of threatened species, such a process would only apply to acquisition of what I call Target Species. These are *those animals which are suitable for captive living, are in need of conservation intervention and are desirable/rewarding to keep.* Permits to keep and breed Target Species would not be given out willie nillie. I could see both the production company and Parks working in tandem to issue the permits to keep for new owners.

These are just ideas mind!

That is all

Slickturtle



jahan said:


> Hi Slick, We all pay our licence fee`s to keep our reptiles, Would a levy of say $2/5 on our fees fund a project like that?


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## longirostris (Jul 16, 2010)

The ideas being generated by this thread regarding captive breeding programs are really exciting and would be fantastic if we could make them happen. 

I am not trying to be a stick in the mud but there are some serious "barriers to entry" so to speak of before anything like this sort of thing could possibly happen.

In my view the greatest of these barriers is the attitude of regulatory authorities and professionally qualified researchers and academics towards priivate keepers.

I have been in contact with several government and quasi government institutions over the years trying to gain access to progeny of wild caught animals (dragons in particular) with absolutely no success. Why, because I am a private keeper.

It seems that large numbers of captive breed progeny held by these institutions are best left to die out rather then be released to those of us who are private keepers. The problem stems from the authorities lack of foresight or perhaps just straight bloody mindedness that private keepers are not capable or suitable in being allowed access to animals that are already in captivity and held by these government institutions. 

I can think of several species of dragon lizards that I have tried to gain access to in the last 5 years that would have been great candidates for private enthusiasts collections. Non of these species had any considerable conservation status although one or two could be regarded as not common in their range. They just were not or are not available to the private herpetocultural enthusiast. In each case I was pretty much given the cold shoulder or had the conditions of the original collect permit relayed to me which prohibited the sale of any progeny to private keepers. And, I repeat, these animals are already in captivity for goodness sake. How ridiculous can you get.

I am sorry and do not want to rain on the parade but there are some really big issues and egos that need to be conquered before you can start to get some runs on the board with this project. 

Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to see this happen. But I really think we need to get some highly respected people like maybe Rick Shine, Hal Cogger, John Weigel, Gavin Bedford and others to become part of a united voice or lobby group who may see the merit of this arguement and more importantly, who would support the release of captive bred progeny to private enthusiasts. 

I am told that an organisation already exists under the auspices of the Aquariums Zoos and Wildlife parks association that actually does discuss and make recommendations to various governments on policy relating to this very topic. I am also told some very high profile and highly regarded individuals who have had the opportunity to assist with the release of additional species to the private sector have been the most vocal in opposing said release to private individuals. 

So what hope or chance do we realistically expect to have with a project such as the oenpelli python when these sorts of barriers exist. I would be happy to participate in any way I could as I see this as a massive issue for the future of herpetoculture in this country.


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2010)

Taking animals into captivity is certainly going to a hurdle as longirostris pointed out but I think even bigger hurdle will be making the bureaucrats to realise that making money from captive bred wildlife is not a crime. At the moment it is, people have been prosecuted. I was told on several occasions by the QPWS that "no commercialisation of protected fauna will be allowed". That even applies to commercial photography; the QPWS charges slightly over $100.- (I don't have the exact figure) per day for shooting in any NP. I ask - who is the entrepreneur here?
Why is there difference in conservation / commerce approach to snakes and lizards than there is to crocodiles? Once on the brink of extinction, within two decades the species became the best protected reptile in the country AND we have a thriving crocodile industry along the side of it. Why can't we do the same with the rest of reptiles (and other vertebrates)?


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## Jonno from ERD (Jul 16, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> people have been prosecuted.


 
G'day Michael,

Any further info on this?

Cheers


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2010)

No, it's an old stuff, that guy in Brisbane and others.


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## cement (Jul 16, 2010)

JW and ARP have just secured the site for a large Tassie Devil breeding. In fact you can all help by looking at the website www.devilark.com.au
every person that goes on there helps by getting the numbers up somehow.
We have a few really good examples and "precedents" now in place to be able to use as ammunition for this type of plan.


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2010)

Another "precedent" is the Lake Echam Rainbowfish. Extinct in the wild, a thriving population discovered in aquarium of amateur fish enthusiasts in Victoria. Unfortunately the species cannot re-introduced into the lake (as yet) but it's safe from extinction.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2010)

Longirostris is absolutely correct in his comments, but I don't think those hurdles come as any surprise to those of us who know the bureucracies. There is also opposition from within our own ranks, and that might just not be apparent in the early stages of any negotiation.

JW succeeds at what he does because he is, above all, persistent. The RSP project was a result of years of lobbying and being ignored by CALM, but not giving up... The Devil Ranch has a similar history - unwilling or unhelpful bureaucracies haven't exactly jumped at the chance to be involved, but if at first you don't succeed, try and try again...

J.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jul 16, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> No, it's an old stuff, that guy in Brisbane and others.


 
G'day mate,

Can you PM/Email me about it? From what I understand, nobody has ever been prosecuted for profiting from the sales of captive bred reptiles in QLD?


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## Slickturtle (Jul 16, 2010)

Hello Longirostris

That was a good post. I agree with all you say. You mention Hal Cogger - does anyone know if he is still involved in reptile today? Or has he retired from it completely. Gavin Bedford is right into this sort of thing. You have mentioned reptile people only. This issue is actually about all types of Aussie vertebrates. So the list includes Prof. Mike Archer, Asst. Prof. Mike Tyler, Prof. Gordon Grigg, Dr Rosie Cooney, Dr Linda Tucker and all sorts of other senior academics and biologists. Possibly a hundred or more of people most of us have never heard of but are very influential and knowledgeable. Also that there are the heads of the WWF, Earth Sanctuaries, The Australian Nature Conservancy. the Heads of Landcare and numerous others. But they do not know that we are talking yet and all have to be approached and 'recruited' into supporting us. It is only a little job do be done before lunch.

You are also right to mention ARAZPA (Aust Regional Zoos and Public Aquaria) although they are natural allies I suspect they will be a hard nut to crack. They live in their own world and don't seem to be very willing to look beyond their boundaries. But this will have to change. They are copping a lot of flack from Animal Libbers about welfare issues. ARAZPA seriously need to bolster their conservation credentials and we can help them do that if they pay attention and listen to us.

Thanks for your offer of help Longi, we will come back to you at some stage.

Slick


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## Slickturtle (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Water Rat (which species are you by the way - your not a False Water Rat (Xeromys myoides?) If you are, then you are a listed person up here - Vulnerable!!! 

It is interesting that you mention crocs. I recently sent a lengthy submission into Parks and Wildlife NT who were calling for public comments on their new Croc Management Plan for the Top End. I wrote in arguing that we should resume broad scale shooting of them from Cairns to Broome. It did not go down very well - especially amongst my wildlifee mates!! But I can make a strong argument for it. I will tell you sometime.

Cheers


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 16, 2010)

Slickturtle said:


> Hi Water Rat (which species are you by the way - your not a False Water Rat (Xeromys myoides?) If you are, then you are a listed person up here - Vulnerable!!!
> 
> It is interesting that you mention crocs. I recently sent a lengthy submission into Parks and Wildlife NT who were calling for public comments on their new Croc Management Plan for the Top End. I wrote in arguing that we should resume broad scale shooting of them from Cairns to Broome. It did not go down very well - especially amongst my wildlifee mates!! But I can make a strong argument for it. I will tell you sometime.
> 
> Cheers



I'd love to hear your argument on this, too! I tried to argue this same thing a couple of times with TWSers - not a happy ending


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Slick,

is Graham Webb still advocating for utilizing wildlife? I think he was one of the first in the firing line long time ago. 
Oh yes, kangaroo, crocodile, emu meat on the table? Someone explained to the other day that PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals ... I didn't know that.

I have been described (by Hoser) as _Hydromys multifasciata_ sp. novae - always Vulnerable! Especially on APS.

I think the crocodile situation in NT and Qld is very different and requires different management - we talk about it sometime.


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 16, 2010)

I need some clarification please guys, so I can work out how to proceed from here and not hope this is a pipe dream that doesn't come to fruition as IT IS VERY important as we all know!!!
OK, I love this thread as do all that have positively contributed, we all agree on that, correct? 
We all have affirmed our dedication and support,correct?
I see this in Business everyday around the boardroom, everybody agrees, but no one wants too "OR" knows how to put their nuts on the chopping board and make it happen...(speaking from a Business perspective and figuratively speaking of course lol!) 
I see the latter in this case, we don't know how to proceed, is that a correct assumption?
I'm keen to help promote the cause and make the change, but I don't have the knowledge (in this topic) of the learned contributors that we all have been inspired from so far with this thread.
I am fully psyched and ready, as this thread PLUS the other one today, on the Central Ranges taipan (Oxyuranus temporalis) and what that means to US, as hobbyists, we all need to contribute to make a change!
I will put my hand up to volunteer my time to help organise and lobby the Beauricrats to make a change and enlighten this topic to the public, as I know I can do this through persistance and with the written word as well as possible contacts in the media, IF they are willing to follow the story...which I'm sure I can convince with the help of some friends. Fingers Crossed!!!  
I need to know the dedication of us all, My question is:
IS it worth fighting for? Answer: Of course!
I hope to talk with the main contributors to gather the scientific evidence from which i'm lacking, to put forward our case to the people that may be able to help make the difference.
Cheers....


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## Elapidae1 (Jul 16, 2010)

In regards to the Central Ranges Taipan article, the DEC made comment on the importance of discovering more about this species and the environment in which they live. Wouldn't it be handy if the equivalent authority in each state or territory made similar public comments, so they could be held to their word.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2010)

The problem with DEC, Steve, is that they will never readily acknowledge that private keepers have anything to offer herpetology in this country. Along with a couple of others, I spent literally years arond the table at CALM headquaters in Kensington, with the likes of Peter Mawson, Dave Mell, Gordon Wyre and Adrian Coleman, I know what they think of private keepers... I remember Mawson saying at one point that WA would introduce legal keeping of reptiles 'over his dead body'... Some would have said ''whatever it takes...' lol!

The people are still there, wielding the influence they always have, and still insisting that it's their way or the highway. I had a call from a colleague at the WA Museum last night, he was telling me about the new Taipan specimen (he's the one who bet his left nut that the first one described was actually a new Taipan, despite skepticism from others at the WAM). The thinking from these people is elite - private keepers are a problem, not a solution, and the only good work is done by 'scientists' or 'scientific' institutions.

Currently there are literally hundreds of reptiles being caught in the Kimberley and shipped to a 'research facility' in the NT to test (kill) them in anticipation of the arrival of cane toads... but woe betide a private individual who is caught with a critter or two illegally. The hypocrisy is astounding. This is the way it has always been, it is deeply entrenched, even reptile keepers by & large believe the myth that these departments actually have a positive effect on 'conservation' by believing the propaganda they see in the press...

Private keepers don't feature in their thinking at all... at the moment.


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## benjamind2010 (Jul 16, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Currently there are literally hundreds of reptiles being caught in the Kimberley and shipped to a 'research facility' in the NT to test (kill) them in anticipation of the arrival of cane toads... but woe betide a private individual who is caught with a critter or two illegally. The hypocrisy is astounding. This is the way it has always been, it is deeply entrenched, even reptile keepers by & large believe the myth that these departments actually have a positive effect on 'conservation' by believing the propaganda they see in the press...
> 
> Private keepers don't feature in their thinking at all... at the moment.


 
It's like the abortion issue and the war on drugs, those two issues come to mind when I think about hypocrisy. The government tells us that we have the right to control our bodies, but then turns around and tells us that we're not allowed to smoke cannabis, which at worst arguably does no more harm than tobacco and certainly far less damaging than alcohol which causes so much of the street violence we hear about in the news. When it comes to hypocrisy this dirty little thing I think is just about the worst example of hypocrisy I can find, and it's enshrined in LAW and championed ad nauseum through it's hollow and pretentious rhetoric.

Legal != Right
Illegal != Wrong

That about sums it up.


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 16, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The problem with DEC, Steve, is that they will never readily acknowledge that private keepers have anything to offer herpetology in this country. Along with a couple of others, I spent literally years arond the table at CALM headquaters in Kensington, with the likes of Peter Mawson, Dave Mell, Gordon Wyre and Adrian Coleman, I know what they think of private keepers... I remember Mawson saying at one point that WA would introduce legal keeping of reptiles 'over his dead body'... Some would have said ''whatever it takes...' lol!
> 
> The people are still there, wielding the influence they always have, and still insisting that it's their way or the highway. I had a call from a colleague at the WA Museum last night, he was telling me about the new Taipan specimen (he's the one who bet his left nut that the first one described was actually a new Taipan, despite skepticism from others at the WAM). The thinking from these people is elite - private keepers are a problem, not a solution, and the only good work is done by 'scientists' or 'scientific' institutions.
> 
> ...


 Hmmmm, they seem a tad threatened dont they? Must mean that they could feel that their existence needs to be justified...LOL
Again, its a damn shame that these educated people cant contribute, but need to ridicule instead...
Thanks *Pythoninfinite*...


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## Slickturtle (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Kirsty

I would love to hear if your position on crocs is the same as mine or just some parallel reflection. Well I am feeling bullet proof tonight so I will post my submission here for all to read. 

Only problem is that I will read the reaction when I am feeling old and weak in the morning!!

Here it is.

Cheers



Kristy_07 said:


> I'd love to hear your argument on this, too! I tried to argue this same thing a couple of times with TWSers - not a happy ending


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## longirostris (Jul 17, 2010)

Hi Pythoninfinite, 

Your meetings with CALM sound very interesting. I know of several individuals over that way who participated in those discussions you are referring to. You may very well be one of them. People like Brian Bush, Brad Maryan, Rob Browne-Cooper and others I believed worked tirelessly for many years just to get the limited private keeping scenario you have over there today.

You are all to be congratulated on your perserverance and tenacity in never giving up and forcing CALM to allow some private keeping. 

The attitude you openly encountered with CALM officials exists in every state wildlife authority unfortunately, its just that some are not quite so blatant as to make open comments of ridicaule about private herpers.

I have experience with DECCW in Victoria and NPWS in NSW and both organisations have members of staff particularly enforcement officials who demonstrate elitist attitudes towards private keepers. 

My issue is with the ridiculous situation that exists where a researcher or even Government run wildlife facility is given a take from the wild permit that states captive bred progeny that may result from intended research or captive husbandry cannot be sold or transferred to private keepers. 

I recently had several communications with a researcher at a University in Melbourne who had a large number (60-70) of a particular species of dragon lizard that is not available to private keepers anywhere in Australia. It is a species that demonstrates a suitability to captive husbandry, (it has been bred many times by the researcher and has also been bred and held at a government owned wildlife park elsewhere for more then 10 years), yet I was told that the original collect permit conditions included a clause not allowing any progeny or excess animals to go to private keepers. 

The animals have since been moved on to 3 other universities around Australia with the majority (90%) going to one university for additional research involving further breeding. I have contacted the Professor running this research program at the university on several occassions over the past several months and have been completely ignored. What happens to all these animals when the research is over? Well in the case of the Wildlife Park who has these animals and has been breeding them for 10 years I am told by a well placed individual within the system that the animals will be taken off display and allowed to live their lives out but no further breeding will take place. Effectively these animals are being allowed to die out in captivity because of the sheer stupidity of the authorities. 

This is not about money. I am a dragon keeper for goodness sake. Any body who keeps dragons knows there is no money in dragons. You do it because you love it, you do it because you are passionate about it. You spend 10 times more then you can ever make. Try replacing 100 odd mercury vapour lights every 12 months or paying electricity bills that are approaching $8,000 per annum just for your collection with the proceeds from selling dragon progeny. 

As I have mentioned in earlier posts there are ways around this for private keepers, both in NSW and Victoria. The easiest and quickest way is to become a wildlife demonstrator. A wildlife demonstrator can get access to animals that private keepers cannot. This is in spite of the fact that most demonstrators keep a wide cross section of animals from many different families of reptiles and would not be expected to and generally do not have the same expertise or knowledge as someone who specialises in one family of reptiles. This is not a criticism of wildlife demonstrators, far from it, this is a critism of the state bodies that regulated and continue to enforce a ridiculous system that has seen a profusion of wildife demonstrator licenses handed out in NSW and Victoria, that really exist only to enable holders to keep species they would otherwise not have access to. 

At least in NSW if you can demonstrate that the species you are proposing to bring in to the state has been bred in Captivity or even wild caught via a legal collect permit they will give you permission to keep it, even if the species is not on the wildlife keepers schedules/lists. 

This ridiculous situation that precludes holders of collect permits from selling on animals that have been bred from the collected individuals to private keepers has to be addressed. It is ridiculous. I know of 2 dragon species (currently held by government and quasi government institutions) as I write this that are in danger of disappearing from captivity (one species demise I believe is iminent). 

I am sorry for the long winded nature of this post, but I see this issue as a major hurdle to any more liberal activity discussed here such as the collection of oenpelli pythons for conservation purposes. With attitudes that myself and others including python infinite have described existing at state authority level and even amongst ousrselves as others have correctly pointed out, I fear for the welfare of our interest but more importantly for the welfare of animals that have any susseptibility to the perils of their environment whether they be man made or natural.


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## Southside Morelia (Jul 17, 2010)

In MY experience dealing with Government Contracts everyday with our Business, whether it be Housing NSW or Dept of Commerce and reading what has been posted, it seems ALL these Government facilities have the same in trenched and institutionalized way of thinking. In their eyes, its too hard "and expensive" to change!!!
We as Tax payers, have the right to question this way of thinking as we pay their salaries, its time to change and I feel it can be done, no problem! 
"Publicity and media exposure" is the key to this being a success and without that tool, trying to lobby the Bureaucrats with letters that no one (the Public) will ever hear about, will never work and has been proven by previous posts from the key posters.

LOL longirostris, mate it's definitely not about money, its ALL about the love of the hobby and the animals, we all agree with you there! 
On a lighter note, my Company installs Solar PV installations in Schools, Businesses and the Private Sector, which are ALL subsidized by the Government and rebated acordingly to make it attractive... I will unveil a plain using this concept for "US HERPERS" in the future to save "us" some money having to fork out for the astronomical electrical bills most of us pay each and every year! 
Stay tuned kiddies....


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 17, 2010)

Thanks for the reply longirostris, it finally boiled down to me, Simon Ball and Mike Lynch for the last couple of years - the others you mention started the process, but were worn down by CALM over a very long period of time. That's the usual strategy for government officials - ignore and don't become involved... and the problem will most likely go away. The only reason we succeeded eventually was to canvass the support of both the Environment Minister, and her counterpart at the time - once the bureaucrats start getting Ministerials, they begin to take things seriously. They HAVE to deal with them, and they have to get it right, and sometimes it takes a lot of time. These guys are not suddenly going to become all warm & fuzzy, and embrace a new way of thinking, without considerable pressure from their political masters. At this point in time, it's much more about the exercise of power, and not being seen to lose face, regardless of the logic of the argument they are confronted with. It's definitely not about logic.

As a community, we do need to be far more politically active, and we need access to good legal advice, but above all we need to be persistent. We are now a large group in the Australian community, and growing, and we need to figure out how to harness the latent energy and voting power of that group. 

Jamie.


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## cement (Jul 17, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> As a community, we do need to be far more politically active, and we need access to good legal advice, but above all we need to be persistent. We are now a large group in the Australian community, and growing, and we need to figure out how to harness the latent energy and voting power of that group.
> 
> Jamie.



Hey Jamie, its looking like the Greens may end up with the balance of power after this next election. They might be worth a thought or two considering it was them I think who helped the AHS with the surveys at Homebush brickyards during the building of the olympics because of the bell frog, putting a stop to work so they could get surveys done on the natives.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Aug 23, 2010)

bump.

Any more news??? Or views, ideas, plans. Anything???


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