# Darwin Carpet Possible Hets. (pics)



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Just a couple of pics of three Juvi Darwins i received from Southernx a few weeks ago.

All males, but will be after some females to pair them to, and of course ill only be after female Darwins.

I have no intrest in being the creator of hybrid filth  

I think if you want to play with hybrids you should breed dogs!! 
Not our Australian Native animals.

*Odin*







*Thor*






*Boof Head*






Matt


----------



## Pike01 (Jun 10, 2006)

LOL" hybrid filth",dont hold back, tell us what you really think. LOL


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

pike1 said:


> LOL" hybrid filth",dont hold back, tell us what you really think. LOL



I was holding back a great deal  

Matt


----------



## Ricko (Jun 10, 2006)

nice mate well done. but may i ask what you payed for possible hets?


----------



## shazam (Jun 10, 2006)

Ricko said:


> nice mate well done. but may i ask what you payed for possible hets?


I was wondering the same thing...... :?:


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

They are $2500 each. It would be nice to get at least one or they are an expensive Darwin ;-)


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

Yeah nice soapbox :lol: 



pike1 said:


> LOL" hybrid filth",dont hold back, tell us what you really think. LOL


----------



## Ricko (Jun 10, 2006)

jesus thats alot for a poss het. alwell well done on having the cash and stuff to buy them and i hope they are hets for you when it comes to breeding


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

boa said:


> They are $2500 each. It would be nice to get at least one or they are an expensive Darwin ;-)



*Boa,*

Thats far from the truth. 

Matt


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

My mistake, I thought they were $2500 each, they were last time I heard, you must have caught Simon on a good day


----------



## Ramsayi (Jun 10, 2006)

boa said:


> My mistake, I thought they were $2500 each, they were last time I heard, you must have caught Simon on a good day



Possible MALE hets were never going to be that price.Being male they would be worth about as much as a standard darwin.


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

Ah sorry, yes they are males. A long process to get yourself some albinos but certainly a cheaper route.
You're right the female hets are $2500.


----------



## ad (Jun 10, 2006)

Good to see you are keeping them pure Matt,
This line in particular will be very muddy in a few years, 
Cheers
Ad


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

If i dont find some 66% Pos or 100% Female Hets, Yes a long road ahead.

They come from a nice line, so should produce nice offspring regardless.

Matt


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

They are a nice snake in their own right, I just got myself some really nice female Darwins.
There should be definite hets available this year maybe.


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

ad said:


> Good to see you are keeping them pure Matt,
> This line in particular will be very muddy in a few years,
> Cheers
> Ad



I agree "*ad*" there is going to be plenty of people destroying this line.

I would rather never produce a single albino, than produce a Hybrid Albino.

Too many people will cross the gene out into other sub species.

Matt


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

Well that's progress ;-)


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

boa said:


> Well that's progress ;-)



Im just not looking forward to some peoples idea of progress :? 

Matt


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

:lol: :lol:


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

I like the top one, nice markings, plenty of potential there.


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

boa said:


> I like the top one, nice markings, plenty of potential there.



Yeah, the top one is my pick also, this will be a trait ill be looking for when getting a female.


Matt


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

When did Simon start selling possible het males? At least until recently they were being sold as normal males at normal prices (through a third party). I didn't think he had ever offered possible het males for direct sale. I'm not having a go at you or saying it's untrue, just curious.


----------



## Ramsayi (Jun 10, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> When did Simon start selling possible het males? At least until recently they were being sold as normal males at normal prices (through a third party). I didn't think he had ever offered possible het males for direct sale. I'm not having a go at you or saying it's untrue, just curious.



Sold at the price of a NORMAL Sdaji


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

I agree, I have never heard mention of possible het males come to think of it.


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> When did Simon start selling possible het males? At least until recently they were being sold as normal males at normal prices (through a third party). I didn't think he had ever offered possible het males for direct sale. I'm not having a go at you or saying it's untrue, just curious.



Thats the first ive heard of any third party, and i cant imagine why he would want a third party to sell anything?

Matt


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

I think it's fair to say that any big breeder could sell animals that aren't top notch through another party, I'm not saying Simon does but it isn't uncommon.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

Ramsayi said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > When did Simon start selling possible het males? At least until recently they were being sold as normal males at normal prices (through a third party). I didn't think he had ever offered possible het males for direct sale. I'm not having a go at you or saying it's untrue, just curious.
> ...



What's the price of a NORMAL Sdaji?


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

Is there such a thing ?


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > When did Simon start selling possible het males? At least until recently they were being sold as normal males at normal prices (through a third party). I didn't think he had ever offered possible het males for direct sale. I'm not having a go at you or saying it's untrue, just curious.
> ...



So that people buy them not knowing that they're possible hets. Keeps things simple for everyone. This isn't a secret, Simon has spoken about it during his talks at reptile societies' public meetings.


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

boa said:


> I think it's fair to say that any big breeder could sell animals that aren't top notch through another party, I'm not saying Simon does but it isn't uncommon.



For the record i dealt directly with Simon, via email and phone, and i found him to be a top bloke to deal with.

There was *NO* third party involved, except for Australia Air Express.

Matt


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

boa said:


> Is there such a thing ?



Well, as far as I know, I'm the only one, which means every Sdaji is the same, which by definition means I'm a normal Sdaji. Whether or not Sdaji is a normal anything else is a different question. I suppose it's debatable.


----------



## Retic (Jun 10, 2006)

He is a top bloke to deal with, no doubt but that was being questioned.


----------



## Ramsayi (Jun 10, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Ramsayi said:
> 
> 
> > Sdaji said:
> ...



Come to think of it the price of a NORMAL Sdaji would be subject to supply and demand.Being that there wouldn't be many if any NORMAL Sdaji's then I guess EOI should be called for.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> boa said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's fair to say that any big breeder could sell animals that aren't top notch through another party, I'm not saying Simon does but it isn't uncommon.
> ...



Yeah, he is a brilliant guy who sells brilliant animals, mostly directly. Definately a fantastic person to buy from and I frequently recommend him to people. I'm not for a moment trying to say anything bad about him, of all the herps in Australia he is one of the ones I respect and admire most. The possible het for albinism male Darwins were one of the few cases where he was selling through a third party.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

Ramsayi said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > Ramsayi said:
> ...



Imagine the value of a tripple-striped hypo zebra jag Sdaji. I must say though, I still prefer the original morph.


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Sdaji that would depend if your parents are from the same locality, other wise im not at all intrested


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Does anyone have any pictures of Darwins with the same kind of pattern as the below animal.








Matt


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 10, 2006)

I met with simon about a month ago and we talked about hets and he actually didnt mention having any avaiable. he said he would have some possibly next season.


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> I met with simon about a month ago and we talked about hets and he actually didnt mention having any avaiable. he said he would have some possibly next season.



Yeah 100% hets for this coming season.

My animals arent 100% hets.

Matt


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 10, 2006)

ahh ok then. he said his price for a pair of hets would be 7700$
and i like the names of your first 2 darwins. nice!!!


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> ahh ok then. he said his price for a pair of hets would be 7700$
> and i like the names of your first 2 darwins. nice!!!



Yeah sounds about right, must be 100% Hets.

Ive got a few Nordic Names lined up for any female Darwins i get  

Matt


----------



## Lurk (Jun 10, 2006)

OK now I am a bit slow ...can someone tell me What Hets are


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Lurk said:


> OK now I am a bit slow ...can someone tell me What Hets are



A het is an animal that is carrying a ressive trait that cannot be expressed

Matt


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Jun 10, 2006)

Is A Het:

An animal that carries a recessive trait that cannot be passed to its offspring?


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Jun 10, 2006)

DOH! Just saw someone asked and answered. 

Teach me to not read the entire thread before openin' me mouth


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

"Het" is slang for an animal which is heterozygous (that is, a heterozygote) for a Mendelian recessive allele/trait. It's common for people to neglect to mention what the trait is. Heterogyotes for Mendelian recessives carry one copy of the gene (sic), and if crossed with a homozygote (the slang 'homo' hasn't caught on for some reason) or another heterozygote, some of the offspring will be homozygotes and thus express the trait.


----------



## Lurk (Jun 10, 2006)

Thank you for the answer people and I would not worry AntaresiaLady ,Now that I have been told twice I cant forget :lol:


----------



## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jun 10, 2006)

quite a mouthfull sdaji
can you dumb it down a bit mate?? 


> (the slang 'homo' hasn't caught on for some reason)


maybe it should have been hom


----------



## bikiescum2003 (Jun 10, 2006)

to be honist i have never seen darwins with that pattern.. not to say they dont exist..
i would not of paid that for them (mainly coz i dont have that kind of cash) but still nice looking python


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

ssssnakeman said:


> quite a mouthfull sdaji
> can you dumb it down a bit mate??
> 
> 
> ...



Um...

you need two defective alleles ("genes") to be an albino. If you only have one, you're a heterozygote (hetero means 'both'). A 'het' has one functional and one defective copy of the gene. One functional gene is enough to produce melanin (or one of its precursors), so the animal looks normal. That's only part of the story, I don't know which part you're unclear on.

Homozygotes aren't called homozygotes because they express the trait, so they're just labelled with the trait (eg, it's not homozygous for albinism, it's just an albino, it's not homozygous for leucistic, it's just a leucistic etc etc).

You can be heterozygous for dominant traits too, in which case you'll look the same as a homozygote, eg Bell's phase lacies, in which case the het looks like a hom, the trait is expressed and will be expressed in the het, and in all the offspring which inherit the allele ("gene"), regardless of the genotype of the animal it's crossed with.


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

bikiescum2003 said:


> to be honist i have never seen darwins with that pattern.. not to say they dont exist..
> i would not of paid that for them (mainly coz i dont have that kind of cash) but still nice looking python




How do you know you wouldnt have paid "that kinda cash" for them, i never said how much i paid  

Matt


----------



## Lurk (Jun 10, 2006)

bikiescum2003 said:


> to be honist i have never seen darwins with that pattern.. not to say they dont exist.. I was thinking the same thing they are familar markings though.


----------



## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jun 10, 2006)

thanks sdaji, youve cleared it up for me :wink:


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Jun 10, 2006)

Thankyou Sdaji- Your bigger explanation helped me get it better- Having bred and shown guinea pigs, I did a lot of research on genes and recessive genes and all that, so your exlanation reminded me of exactly what it meant.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

What's a recessive gene?


----------



## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jun 10, 2006)

which one?arnt there a few different types of recessive genes?im no scientist so i might be wrong


----------



## Australis (Jun 10, 2006)

Lurk said:


> bikiescum2003 said:
> 
> 
> > to be honist i have never seen darwins with that pattern.. not to say they dont exist.. I was thinking the same thing they are familar markings though.
> ...


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

"Recessive gene" doesn't make sense to me. Everyone talks about them, so I assume they have some concept of what they are. I'd really like to know what is meant a lot of the time. Not being nasty or anything here, I'm confused and genuinely quite interested to understand the concept. People talk about a carpet python having an albino gene (or genes?), or lacies having a "Bell's phase gene" even though every carpet python has the same genes, every lacey has the same genes, etc etc. They have different alleles of the genes, not different genes. If I understood where people were coming from when they said things like "albino gene", I could better explain things. I usually just assume that when people say 'gene', they mean 'allele' but are unfamiliar with the word, but then sometimes the sentences become meaningless, so I assume some other concept is being spoken of.


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Jun 10, 2006)

My apologies Sdaji- I was referring to Alleles and the like. A lot of the stuff I read used the term 'Recessive Gene', and so I tended to use it to explain in general what I was talking about to people who don't know what an Allele is etc.


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Jun 10, 2006)

I guess I was being flippant, and forgot you know what you're talking about. 

Sorry!


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 10, 2006)

That's okay, not trying to have a go at anyone, it's just that a lot of the time I can't follow what people are talking about. It generally seems like people use "gene" when they should use "allele" and that's my usual assumption.


----------



## Malley (Jun 10, 2006)

Im not trying to have a go at anyone either, but i think scientific terms such as alleles are not understood by a lot of people who keep reptiles because it isnt really general knowledge imo. The people that understand that sort of thing are people who have done biology at school or a uni subject on genetics, or people that have not necessary chosen to be educated in that area, but have just done their own research on it out of general interest. Its just my opinion that allele isnt a term understood by the majority of the public...
Feel free to correct me if you think otherwise


----------



## alby (Jun 11, 2006)

hehehe im lost too


----------



## Ramsayi (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> That's okay, not trying to have a go at anyone, it's just that a lot of the time I can't follow what people are talking about. It generally seems like people use "gene" when they should use "allele" and that's my usual assumption.



Thats exactly how most people understand it.Dominant and recessive genes.


----------



## alby (Jun 11, 2006)

ok ok so in dumb alby terms if i get one snake carrying the dominant gene and one carrying the recessive gene do we get albino babies :idea: :shock:


----------



## Jungleland (Jun 11, 2006)

Hi Matt,

Here's one of my male Darwin that has similar pattern, I've seen a few around but not that many, I am sure Berrige have some. Sdaji as always very informative post keep up the good work  .

All the best!!


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

One gene (for example, the gene which makes the Darwin carpet pythons albino) can be dominant or recessive. I'm not telling anyone to learn anything new, I'm trying to understand what people mean when they say "dominant and recessive genes". Allele isn't a word many people are familiar with, but despite people being familiar with the word 'gene', no one seems to know what it means. I'm wondering if people have learned the concept of alleles but just use the wrong word. This would make it impossible to understand what a gene actually is, which seems to be the case for many people.

I'm as lost as you are, alby


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

alby said:


> ok ok so in dumb alby terms if i get one snake carrying the dominant gene and one carrying the recessive gene do we get albino babies :idea: :shock:



Every snake has two copies of every gene. To become albinos, the Darwin carpets have each inherited two defective copies of one gene. Genes themselves can't be recessive or dominant. The albino allele is a recessive form of one gene, although there are many genes which can have albinism alleles. A completely different gene could become defective, resulting in albino animals.


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

alby said:


> ok ok so in dumb alby terms if i get one snake carrying the dominant gene and one carrying the recessive gene do we get albino babies :idea: :shock:



Breed two animals who carry the same recessive gene for albino, and you will produce a certain ratio of albinos, Hets, and non albino gene carrying offspring.

Het = Xx

Albino = xx

Normal =XX

So breed Hets
Xx + Xx 
=

Xx ,XX, xx
(the above result is the % of each type produced, just the types of offspring from the pairing example)
Matt

(Edited: to make a "little" more sense)


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

What does 'gene' mean?

Does an albino carpet have two more genes than a normal carpet?


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

Jungleland said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> Here's one of my male Darwin that has similar pattern, I've seen a few around but not that many, I am sure Berrige have some. Sdaji as always very informative post keep up the good work  .
> 
> All the best!!



Thanks for sharing that pic, thats a very nice Darwin, i havnt seen alot around that display this pattern, but i havnt seen a great deal of Darwins anyway, so was wondering how common the pattern was.

Matt


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

Matt, isnt it really xX, Xx, XX & xx. In this totally drunken state, I mean, its 25% albino as opposed to 33% and 50% het as opposed to the 33% in your example.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Xx and xX are the same thing, I think he was just pointing out the possible genotypes from the cross, not the proportions. Yes, you're quite right about the proportions.


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Xx and xX are the same thing, I think he was just pointing out the possible genotypes from the cross, not the proportions. Yes, you're quite right about the proportions.




Yeah i wasnt trying to point out any % in the offspring, i didnt want to add more confusion to my attempt at explaining it, but maybe i have?

Matt


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Xx and xX are the same thing, .



Same result Arj, not the same thing. it doubles your chances!!!


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

the Xx genotype is twice as likely to occur and there are two different ways for it to be produced, but it's the same genotype, the same thing.


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

OK then, you win. I know, I am an accountant. I was just looking at the stats.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Funny that an accountant would love stats :lol:

I don't think anyone 'won', we were just saying different things


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

This has become very interesting, very informative. Can someone expand upon what Matt was explaining but also give the percentages?

Albino x Albino = All albino offspring???
Albino x Het = ???
Albino x Normal = ???
Het x Normal = ???

Now I am confusing myself :shock:


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Albino x Het = 50% Albino 50% Hets

Albino x Normal = 100% Hets.

Het x Normal = 50% Hets 50% Normal


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

albinoxalbino = 100% albino
Ablinoxhet =50% albino 50% het
Albino x normal= 100% hets
het x normal = 50% normal 50% hets


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

Its all about big X's and little x's mate. The big X with a little x makes a big X. the only way to get a little x (albino) is with 2 little x's.

so, albino is little x and normal is big X. the reason we have hets is becase a normal looking snale is actually a Xx or an xX. its looks normal but has a bit of little x in it.

now think.

xx = albino

XX = pure normal

xX is part albino (het) but looks normal

Xx is the same as above.

if you get an xX and breed it with an XX you need to draw a matric but basically you will get 25% xX's and 75% XX's so you have all normal looking snakes of which 25% (on average) are het for albino.

if you get an albino xx to breed with a normal XX you get all xX's and Xx's which are all normal looking but carry the small x allele for albino.

now look at Xx with Xx, you will get xx, Xx, xX, and XX in equal propportions (on average). Thats 25% albino, 50% het and 25% normal. Thats where you get "probable het" from.

does this help? 

Hey it is 1am on Sunday!!!


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Cool Thanks. Do hets always look normal?


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> does this help?


Actually it does... :shock: And it answers my last questions.  Thanks.


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

Yep


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

I am wondering, should we try to explain the whole genotype/phenotype thing?


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

SnakeWrangler: It depends on the trait. Few traits are 100% Mendelian. Most forms of albinism are about as close to true recessive as they get. If the trait is codominant, the heterozygotes have their own phenotype (which can even be outside the range of either homozygote), if the trait is dominant, the hets look the same as the homozygous mutant form (both "XX" and "xx" are homozygous).


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> I am wondering, should we try to explain the whole genotype/phenotype thing?



Can't hurt  Go for it


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Yes, please do. This is very interesting.


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> SnakeWrangler: It depends on the trait. Few traits are 100% Mendelian. Most forms of albinism are about as close to true recessive as they get. If the trait is codominant, the heterozygotes have their own phenotype (which can even be outside the range of either homozygote), if the trait is dominant, the hets look the same as the homozygous mutant form (both "XX" and "xx" are homozygous).



But Arj, from the point of view of us laymen punters, we can't look at a snake and say, "Oh, look, thats a het for albino". We are at the whim of the bloke selling it as a Prob., Poss. or Def. Het.


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

the phenotype is what the snake actually looks like. eg albino
the genotype is what different genes or alleles the snake has. eg a dominant and a recessive or two dominants or two recessives.


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

as far as i know hets look the same as normals so there is no certain way to tell.
unless you are rolling in money and get the dna checked out.
and if anyone is rolling in money let me know how i can help you spend it!!


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > SnakeWrangler: It depends on the trait. Few traits are 100% Mendelian. Most forms of albinism are about as close to true recessive as they get. If the trait is codominant, the heterozygotes have their own phenotype (which can even be outside the range of either homozygote), if the trait is dominant, the hets look the same as the homozygous mutant form (both "XX" and "xx" are homozygous).
> ...



When it comes to recognising het for albino snakes, I think we're all in the same boat. All we can do is crunch the numbers or trust that the seller has done it properly and is honest. Until now that hasn't been much of a problem. Next season will be interesting :lol:


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> as far as i know hets look the same as normals so there is no certain way to tell.
> unless you are rolling in money and get the dna checked out.
> and if anyone is rolling in money let me know how i can help you spend it!!



You'd need an aweful lot of money to do that sort of genetic testing! The carpet python genome hasn't been mapped and we don't even know which chromosome the relevant locus is on!


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> if you get an xX and breed it with an XX you need to draw a matric but basically you will get 25% xX's and 75% XX's so you have all normal looking snakes of which 25% (on average) are het for albino.


xX bred with XX = het x normal = 25 / 75

Sdaji and Thor1 both said that het x normal = 50 / 50??

Now I am confused again... :lol:


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

no, they were right. something to do with tonights consumption. check the nmatrix. the little x goes all the way across


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

It's okay, Peter knows what he is talking about, it's probably just a typo because he has overindulged tonight (someone hide the cask from him!)


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

xX bred with XX = het x normal = 25 / 75

Correct at best.

Matt


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

How do we draw matrices on APS posts?


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

here goes:

x X
-------------------
X Xx XX
X Xx XX

thats 50/50 to me.

Doh!!! spacing didn't work


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

i just redid my calculations and its still 50and 50%


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Hehe, it doesn't line up, for a moment I thought you had haploid snakes 

Pretty good Punnet square for a drunk man


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

So what your trying to say is that breeding a Het to a normals will result in 50% of the offspring being hets?

Matt


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

thats right
then just breed those hets together and you will get 50% albinos and much happiness!!


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

Yes matt, its just which 50% thats all. But of course, you could get zero hets or all hets. But remember, if you have blue eyes and your wife has blue eyes, you can only have blue eyed children!!!


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

what if i have 2 wives?


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Yes matt, its just which 50% thats all. But of course, you could get zero hets or all hets. But remember, if you have blue eyes and your wife has blue eyes, you can only have blue eyed children!!!



Assuming the milk man stays out of the picture and you don't have a mistress.


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

For some reason, i thought it was 25%...


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

Thats why you need the matrix mate!!!


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Thats why you need the matrix mate!!!



I watched the matrix last week, it wasnt much help.

Matt


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> thats right
> then just breed those hets together and you will get 50% albinos and much happiness!!


Now I feel stupid again, cause I thought (based upon a matrix) that het x het would mean 50% het, 25% albino and 25% normal... :shock:


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

See mate, 1.30am is really the most stupid time to discuss these sort of things. But yes, you are right. In fact, thats where prob Het comes from (66.67% chance of being het)


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

yes actually that was a test, yeah, a test. you passed!!
sorry bout that, youre definatley correct in my error.


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

yep, 1:30am isnt a great time for the matrix, but now i can see it...


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> yes actually that was a test, yeah, a test. you passed!!
> sorry bout that, youre definatley correct in my error.


 8)


:lol:


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

and i absolutley agree now is an awful time to be doing this.
sadly enough i am at work and getting paid to be on the internet.
well kind of...


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> the genotype is what different genes or alleles the snake has. eg a dominant and a recessive or two dominants or two recessives.


Does someone feel brave enough to explain dominant and recessive in a bit more detail?


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

dominant doesnt really hhave hets, thats all i can be bothered to say at 1:30am


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

its not easy.
firstly what exactly do you want to know?


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

i suggest
google


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Jun 11, 2006)

it means one likes to sleep for the winter, and the other is very shy. 

LOL!!


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

I would except the system stuffs up my matrix. But remember. if little x is recessice and bix X is dominant and you put them together then you get a big X. The only way to get little x is when you have two of them. so XX, Xx and xX looks like X and only xx looks like x.

Lets say blue eyes is "x" and brown eyes is "X". you can only have blue or brown eyes. a person with Xx or xX alleles will have brown eyes but they carry the blue gene so to speak. XX means brown eyes with no blue in them. xx means blue eyes with no brown,.


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Jun 11, 2006)

wow my spelling is immaculate tonight isn't it!!!


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> its not easy.
> firstly what exactly do you want to know?


I am not sure what I want to know because I don't have any idea what these terms refer to in relation to genetics... 

Are these terms related to how the trait is passed to offspring?


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

the terms dominant and recessive just refer to the genes an animal carries
all carry 2 kind of the way we all have half our chromosomes from one parent an
half from the other. i think thats right.


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

im not really an expert or anything but i did pass my genetics exam about a month ago


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Here is what I am thinking:

All living things have 2 alleles associated with each trait (eye color, hair color, etc...), one of these alleles is passed from the father and the other from the mother (ok so far?). One of these alleles will be active (does this mean dominant?) and the other will not (does this mean recessive?).

So a dominant allele will be shown in the offspring and the recessive allele will not...


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

so far so good except both can be dominant or recessive.
dominant alleles always show in the offspring.


----------



## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Genetics at 2am................I must be bored.

In dominant mutations the matrix pete has been refering to still works, it's just that when you get a het (i.e. Xx) the defective allele expresses itself, so it looks like xx.

So, to use an example, if the presence of the defective allele x produces pink snakes, and the normal colour is brown (and X is normal allele), then:

XX = brown
Xx = pink
xx = pink

Your hets will be pink, the same as the homozygous recessives.



Hix


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

So what happens when both are dominant? Is the result a mixture of the two?


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Hix said:


> Genetics at 2am................I must be bored.
> 
> In dominant mutations the matrix pete has been refering to still works, it's just that when you get a het (i.e. Xx) the defective allele expresses itself, so it looks like xx.
> 
> ...


Doesn't this mean that het for albino would look albino?


Actually don't worry I get it now.


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

Hix are you saying the X normal allele is recessive?


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Each gene can have any number of alleles. Many genes only have one allele, so everyone is the same. Many different alleles result in the same phenotype, so they are phenotypically silent. At a given locus, you may be Nn, I may be SS, or you may be Ss and I may be QL etc etc.

You get one copy of every gene from your mother and one from your father. One, the other or both may be expressed.

Alleles can only be 'dominant' against other particular alleles. Brown hair may be dominant to blonde, but black may be dominant to brown (in a situation like this, you'd expect black to be dominant to blonde, but this situation doesn't always exist).


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji please dont bring in locuses.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> Sdaji please dont bring in locuses.



It's loci


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

ok then please please please dont bring in loci.
thats one part of genetics that i really didnt enjoy.


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

So what is a locus? :lol:

Nah, I think this discussion is getting way too complicated to learn over an internet forum, I do feel that I have a better understanding so thanks to everyone for contributing.

Although, I will hang around to hear more if you guys keep going.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

What word do you use instead of loci? I think gene is often used as a substitute for it.

"Gene" seems to be the wildcard when discussing genetics, it can mean just about anything :lol:

'locus' is a very simple concept, if you're going to go on with genetics you'll need to understand it. PM me if you like, I should be able to explain it to you quickly and painlessly. Why didn't you enjoy it? Basically, a locus is just a point on a chromosome where a gene sits.


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

we had a lecturer who was from europe and i mean no offense to people from over there but
his english needed improvement. that probably didnt help


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

So what is a chromosome and how does a gene sit on it? :lol:

You can PM the explanation to me if you like, or maybe recommend some good sites online where it is explained.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Hehe, I had a few lecturers who pronounced it strangely. There's always the big divide between "lock-us" and "low-cus" people. I'm definately a "low-cus" person and can't help but think strange thoughts about the others :lol: The "lock-us" lecturers used to drive me mad!


----------



## Thor1 (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji thats one for you.
my brain is slowing down from lack of sleep.


----------



## SnakeWrangler (Jun 11, 2006)

Well i'm off to bed, thanks again guys for taking the time (especially at this hideous hour) to explain this stuff, it has been very enlightening to say the least, you guys have inspired me to want to learn more about it...

Cheers


----------



## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

This is where semantics get into it.

The normal allele is described as Normal. It is neither a dominant nor a recessive allele.

However, it is dominant over a recessive allele in that it expresses itself. 

If you have a defective allele that is Dominant, then it expresses itself over the normal allele which then appears to be recessive.


Snakewrangler said:


> All living things have 2 alleles associated with each trait (eye color, hair color, etc...), one of these alleles is passed from the father and the other from the mother (ok so far?). One of these alleles will be active (does this mean dominant?) and the other will not (does this mean recessive?).



You are correct up to the last sentence - the word 'active' is not really accurate in this context. If the two alleles are identical, they will be expressed jointly. If the alleles are different, then the one which is dominant over the other will express itself.

The reason 'active' is not a good word to use here is because there are some genes that are 'switched on' or 'switched off' at certain times. They can be called active when they are 'switched on'. Furthermore, there are genes which act as switches, they become active and produce hormones which inturn switch on other genes. When the switch stops producing the hormone, the second gene switches off.

It's all rather complex. Wait til we start discussing polymorphism, crossing over and jumping genes!



Hix


----------



## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Bugger! I dozed off writing the above post and Sdaji answered the question, then everyone went to bed.

Maybe I should take the hint and follow suit.



Hix


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

DNA (well, nuclear DNA, the stuff which, generally speaking, people are talking about when they talk about genetics) is arranged on chromosomes. Imagine you have a paired set of pieces of string. Say, eight pieces of string, two of them are 4cm long, two are 5cm long, two are 6.5cm long and two are 12cm long (all arbitrary). The two sets are essentially identical, you got one from mum and one from dad. These pieces of string don't really do anything, they are just a framework you can stick important stuff on to. Imagine now that the pieces of string have knots along them. The pairs have the knots in the same place. Okay, now imaging that at each knot there is a note which says something like "green eyes", "tall", "short", "smart", "freckles" etc etc. If you line the pairs of string up, each knot will be next to a knot in it's homologous partner. Now look at the notes, you might find a pair which says "Short" "Short", in which case you'd be a short person. Another pair might say "idiot" "genius", in which case you'd either be an idiot (if idiot was dominant to genius), a genius (if genius was dominant to idiot), somewhere in between (if they were codominant) or, perhaps, you might be an insane genius, if the affect was additive (this is a bit advanced and certainly way beyond the layman, I won't get into it further).

So, the strings are chromosomes, the knots are loci and the notes are genes. It doesn't matter what the note says, if it's at the same place as another note, they're the same gene. An allele is a different type of note/gene. (A height locus ('knot') might have four alleles - pygmy, short, tall, giant).

Within a species, every individual has the same number of pieces of string with the same number of knots in the same places. Every knot always has a note.

Generally, we hideously oversimplify and what I've described is only a tiny amount of what is going on. We generally only discuss Mendelian genetics, which only represent a small percentage of the traits we're interested in (height, intelligence, how yellow a jungle carpet is, whether or not a Black headed python will eat mice, etc etc are not Mendelian and the situation is far more complex).

Before anyone points it out, yes, I deliberately left out sex chromosomes, there are gene duplications, I know I oversimplified, there are haploids and polyploids, etc etc etc.

2.40am is probably not the best time to be explaining this  I'll probably read it in the morning and think "string, knots and notes" what on earth? :shock:

:lol:


----------



## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> I'll probably read it in the morning and think "string, knots and notes" what on earth? :shock:
> 
> :lol:



For anyone else whose thinking "what on Earth?", let me say that, at this time of the morning, it's a pretty damn good attempt at explaining the intracies of one of the more difficult biological subjects.



Hix


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2006)

Hix said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > I'll probably read it in the morning and think "string, knots and notes" what on earth? :shock:
> ...



Well, you're using 3am judgement :lol: It did seem reasonable to me while I typed it, but it might be a bit less clear and perhaps misleading to people who don't already understand it.

I'd better hit the sack before I make too many more typos


----------



## Slateman (Jun 11, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> alby said:
> 
> 
> > ok ok so in dumb alby terms if i get one snake carrying the dominant gene and one carrying the recessive gene do we get albino babies :idea: :shock:
> ...



This explanation was good enough for old Slateman to get it. Must be clear for anybody now.


----------



## waruikazi (Jun 11, 2006)

Good to see you finally got them Matt! Odin has an awesome dorsal stripe on him, put us down for some hatchies when they arrive.

That explanation is not entirely accurate Matt, (i couldn't bother to read the whole htread so if this has been said apologies) if you breed het to het and we represent albino gene with X and non albino gene with x so the snakes dna could be represented as Xx you would end up with the following...

25% Xx
25% xX
25% xx and 
25% XX

With albinism being a redessive trait this means you will end up with 50% het, 25% without albino gene and 25% albino.


----------



## Hickson (Jun 11, 2006)

Waruikazi,

Go and read the whole thread, that has been covered, and X means the non-albino allele, whereas x represents albino.



Hix


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

waruikazi said:


> Good to see you finally got them Matt! Odin has an awesome dorsal stripe on him, put us down for some hatchies when they arrive.
> 
> That explanation is not entirely accurate Matt, (i couldn't bother to read the whole htread so if this has been said apologies) if you breed het to het and we represent albino gene with X and non albino gene with x so the snakes dna could be represented as Xx you would end up with the following...
> 
> ...



Its was very early in the morning, but even after editing my post, i still left a typo, i "wasnt" trying to give any % of what the offspring would be, just a basic idea of what you could get from one example of a pairing.

Yeah, i Love the dorsal striped one, i will try and get a female to match that fella.



Matt


----------



## waruikazi (Jun 11, 2006)

waruikazi said:


> That explanation is not entirely accurate Matt, *(i couldn't bother to read the whole htread so if this has been said apologies)* .


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

waruikazi said:


> waruikazi said:
> 
> 
> > That explanation is not entirely accurate Matt, *(i couldn't bother to read the whole htread so if this has been said apologies)* .




Dam.. i didnt read your whole post either.


Matt


----------



## waruikazi (Jun 11, 2006)

LOL it happens


----------



## Stevo (Jun 11, 2006)

Here is an adult of mine with similar markings


----------



## Australis (Jun 11, 2006)

Very nice Stevo,

Just what i wanted to see

Cheers
Matt


----------

