# What happens when a WOMA and a BALL python get intimate, you get a WALL



## SlothHead (Aug 8, 2007)

I think the title says it all, but it raises some interesting questions. 

Firstly if they have indeed successfully mated a woma with a ball. I would have to then wonder whether the offspring produced are viable. Since the definition of a species is two animals that can mate and produce a viable offspring, this would then have to question some of the taxa currently around. 

Secondly, and more importantly, is this the future of the Australian Herp market. HYBRIDISATION, MORPHS, etc, basically designer animals. Yes many animals look really nice. But there are plenty of people out there interested in these animals for private collections as a way to ensure species survival. Captive breeding programs are vitally important for some species, and would certainly have to be maintained, which would then also beg the question, with everyone breeding "freaks of Nature" then the valuable animals would therefore be the local specific endemic animals. Thus the cyclical nature of "fashion"


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## MrBredli (Aug 8, 2007)

SlothHead said:


> Since the definition of a species is two animals that can mate and produce a viable offspring, this would then have to question some of the taxa currently around.


 
Are you sure that is a correct definition? There are plenty of different species that when bred together will produce viable offspring. For example species in the Antaresia genus, and the Morelia genus (i.e. GTP's x Carpets).


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## bredli84 (Aug 8, 2007)

that was the original definition, now... who the hell knows?


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## jordo (Aug 8, 2007)

Mr. B is right, although what you wrote is the most widely accepted and simplistic view the species concept is actually a lot more complicated than that definition and with many exceptions etc.
Edit: before anyone pulls me up, I worded that sentence very badly :lol:
Bredli84 summarised it a lot better


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## SlothHead (Aug 8, 2007)

Yeah that is the correct definition, there is a reason for it..... the reason why they can produce viable offspring .

It is just a confusion of terms is all, i was just playing with a bit of tongue in cheek to raise the issue of correct indentification the real issue is the second point


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## Snow1369 (Aug 8, 2007)

Looks like an ugly bredli to me  regaurdless, i think it's ugly!


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## SlothHead (Aug 8, 2007)

as far as the looks are concerned i havent decided if i like it yet, it is kinda strange looking


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## 0_missy_0 (Aug 8, 2007)

I reckon it's alright looking. Not hot, but not ugly.


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## tempest (Aug 8, 2007)

I don't agree with it - but I do think it looks awesome.


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## Miss B (Aug 8, 2007)

I think it looks nice, but I don't agree with it.


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## SlothHead (Aug 8, 2007)

ok those people that say they like it would you therefore own it? ie. spend the money on buying and raising it?


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## Zoltag (Aug 8, 2007)

If it wasnt stupidly expensive, yes...(and stupidly expensive for a pet snake is, in my mind, anything more than a couple of grand - Though for that much I would expect full family history records, certification and initial vet check up all included in the price)...

And yes, GTPs are hideously overpriced!


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## tempest (Aug 8, 2007)

As nice as it looks, I wouldn't own it, no. Not for the money factor either, I'd rather keep the snakes in my collection "pure".


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## 0_missy_0 (Aug 8, 2007)

It's a nice snake, but I wouldn't keep it, simply because hybrids are wrong.


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## Snow1369 (Aug 8, 2007)

I peronally wouldn't waste time, money or effort on somthing like that, if your going to make hybrids make them nice looking  lols! i think its ugly! although i've said it, i want to say it again


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Aug 9, 2007)

I wouldn't buy one... but I think he's kinda cute. lol


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## nvenm8 (Aug 9, 2007)

SlothHead said:


> Secondly, and more importantly, is this the future of the Australian Herp market.



Of course it's the future! what else would all the retarded, dribbling morons that condone this sort of unethical practice do? Basically if you come from a family of inbreeds that have been line and selectively bred for stupidity this is the way to go! You can have freak pets that mimmick the whole family, they do say that owners look like their pets! 
That's why I'm as pure as the driven snow


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## cmclean (Aug 9, 2007)

Love your quote there nvenm8. Made me laugh and I needed one today. Freezer hey,, is like my saying.. submerse till blue haha!!


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## mertle (Aug 9, 2007)

I think it's all well and good to say you wouldn't keep them, until it becomes legal one day (may or may not) then I think it will be like a bandwagon.

I like that snake, would I own one? probably, if it was legal.

There is nothing stopping hybrids and keeping pure bloodlines, look at the dogs going now, tell me everyone on here has a pure dog or cat only. (no cat comments please!)

If we had the reptiles that they do in America we would all want and or have them, if we didn't then there would be no market here for exotics like there is now.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 9, 2007)

slothhead is right, that is how species are definded. Why the anteresia and morelia groups can produce viable young when bred together is because they are the same species but are also sub-species.

IMO pure balls and pure womas look far far better than those ugly mongrel looking pieces of rubbish. Definitley not my cup of tea, or the morals behind the breeding of these sort of animals. The people who do this imo should be hassled out of the hobby/industry, their should be laws against such behavior. IMO they are completely useless herpers that do nothing for the hobby/industry at all, dosnt matter what country they come from.
Bunch of numnuts i recon.


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## hazzard (Aug 9, 2007)

Artificial Insemination of reptiles is being experimented with worldwide. Once this is mastered it's like in-vitro, produce what you want and implant. 

It's happening with lots of animals worldwide!


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## Radar (Aug 9, 2007)

The species def. used up top (the biological species def., which relies on the production of viable offspring) IS the most widely accepted, but there are others, such as the ecological species def (a species is a group of animals which fulfills the same envoronmental niche), the morphological species def......etc, etc, etc. 
It all depends which definition you choose as to what constitutes a species....


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## SlothHead (Aug 9, 2007)

> nvenm8
> Mature Snake
> Of course it's the future! what else would all the retarded, dribbling morons that condone this sort of unethical practice do?



That is GOLD JERRY. 

with reference to the simplistic definition i made, there are a number of caveats that have to be mentioned in the definition, as this definition suits wild animals in their local environment. But yeah as i said it wasnt the real issue of the post. 


The main point is the economics of the whole thing. 

The Australian Herp market has in the past been made by a dedicated group of breeders that produce lines of pure breeds etc. Trueblue for example. But it would appear that the market is gradually changing. 

In the past the people who wanted to own snakes and lizards etc, were those that had an interest in herps, therefore wanting the pureness of the animal. 

Now however, everyday, there appears to be more and more people wanting to own reptiles as purely a shock value pet. 

Therefore it would appear that the future of the herp industry will be this sort of thing. People will want custom designer animals like this simply due to the looks of them. 

So where are the lines to be drawn. Obviously the hybridisation of a ball with a woma, is just out of control, but what about a jungle with a diamond, or a woma and a black head. Is that still too far, what about purposeful hybridisation of bordering species, ie, coastal and diamonds. etc. 

Is this still too far?????

One major problem is the fact that there just isnt the money in it in Australia, hence the reason why you see chams and red tails up for sale.

Hopefully the TRUEBLUES and others will stay around to continue with good quality locality bread animals.


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## choppy (Aug 9, 2007)

I agree with SlothHead, If somone could produce a flourescent multi color herp people will want one regardless of breeding. This is also a good thing as it could introduce people that would never have gotten into herps if they hadn't seen some 'eye catching' snake or lizard. I myself can now apreciate the beauty of Olive ptyhons for example after being into herps for a relatively short period, they dont look like just some 'brown snake' anymore.
However I don't think this will hurt the Australian collectors so much as there are too many herpers that want known lineage and appreciate what that means to their collections.
What we need to do is ensure that new comers understand the importance of pure breeding and the good old USA can stand as testiment to what happens when you try and improve on God by cross breeding, look at the prices they pay for pure animals and then they can never really be sure theyre getting what theyve paid for. We have seen plenty of posts from our American freinds stating how much better our herps are and how hard it is to get an known locality.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 10, 2007)

This is also a good thing as it could introduce people that would never have gotten into herps if they hadn't seen some 'eye catching' snake or lizard

I'm sure the hobby needs more fruitcakes like this. Hybridising is probably the single biggest single threat to the hobby as it is today, even including diseases such as OPMV and IBD. If that's why you're interested in herps, you're definitely in it for the wrong reasons...

Jamie.


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## DA_GRIZ (Aug 10, 2007)

Snow1369 said:


> Looks like an ugly bredli to me  regaurdless, i think it's ugly!


 

i agree its ugly


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## Woomar (Aug 10, 2007)

I don't want anything to do with this practice. Heres another one though..


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## 0_missy_0 (Aug 11, 2007)

:shock:That one is really ugly.


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## Fester (Aug 11, 2007)

Hybrids, morphs, crossbreeds, mongrels. whatever you want to call them is a very emotional and often sensitive subject. Just look at designer dogs. Go into any of the dog forums and see just how emotional it can be! The purebreed owners versus the crossbreed. Look at a lot of the designer dogs, often fetch more than the purebreed dogs they are made up of! Right or wrong, if it is happening in the US I bet it will eventually happen here more so than it already is.


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## MoreliaMatt (Aug 11, 2007)

Fester said:


> Hybrids, morphs, crossbreeds, mongrels. whatever you want to call them is a very emotional and often sensitive subject. Just look at designer dogs. Go into any of the dog forums and see just how emotional it can be! The purebreed owners versus the crossbreed. Look at a lot of the designer dogs, often fetch more than the purebreed dogs they are made up of! Right or wrong, if it is happening in the US I bet it will eventually happen here more so than it already is.



well put ray!!


what he said ^^^^^^


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## Jungle_Freak (Aug 11, 2007)

This is another BS debate ,

hobyist or hybrid breeders are as described by Nvenm8

True herpetologists would never consider making such hybrids,


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## Fester (Aug 11, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> This is another BS debate ,
> 
> hobyist or hybrid breeders are as described by Nvenm8
> 
> True herpetologists would never consider making such hybrids,


 
I am not endorsing it! I just think it will probably happen here because a lot of people are not "true hepretologists" and like designer dogs or cats or whatever will go for the quirky. Because you can!


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## eladidare (Aug 11, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> This is another BS debate ,
> 
> hobyist or hybrid breeders are as described by Nvenm8
> 
> True herpetologists would never consider making such hybrids,


 
true hrepetologists would never breed throw out hybrids, but paper herpetologists might...


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## Jones of the Jungle (Aug 11, 2007)

I am purest, I think we should leave things the way nature intended things to be. And for all you other purest's out there, I say let them have there designer snakes, because once these idiots have saturated the market with mongrels, then it will be the pure snakes that fetch the big money, and then we can all laugh in their faces as they try and sell their "Freaks" for $20!!

Plus what they are doing is simply illegal, I've heard ridiculous stories of they get away with it becasue carpet pythons can be recorded on the same page of the Fauna Permit Record books. Well I'm in SA, and when we got our renewal notice for our permits, there was a newsletter that cleared up some rules, and it stated that it is illegal to breed cross breeds, including sub species ie. Coastal X Jungle and so on.

These people are just ruining the hobby for themselves, not us, as long as we keep things pure we will be the winners.

Just my 2 cents worth


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## Jungle_Freak (Aug 11, 2007)

The pure Dog analogy is not suitable for this comparison with our native species,
Also all the dog breeds were created by man for practical uses , 
for hunting ,guarding ,working stock and loyal pets. 
the true wild dogs are still pure out in there native habitats , 
dingos and wolfs and wild dogs of africa etc ,
but i have herd of hybrid wolf crosses , some people are just wacked ???????

Our native reptile species have been moulded by evolution and there natural habitat , etc 
They are perfect and beautiful by natures design and come in natural mutations like albinoism ,hypos,etc ,
that should satify the morph fancier etc 
i think we are lucky to have these natural morphs coming through now .

the real problem is when hobyist want to play god , creator or inventor ???,
because they can ,the DRONGOS


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## Zoltag (Aug 11, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> ...
> all the dog breeds were created by man for practical uses ,
> for hunting ,guarding ,working stock and loyal pets.
> ...



A lot of dog breeds were created for 'practical' purposes, however as humanity has become more 'civilised', those purposes have changed and currently there are generally accepted to be seven main groups that dog breeds fall under - the Hound Group, the Working Dogs Group, the Terrier Group, the Gundog Group, the Pastoral Group, the Toy Group and the Utility Group (this group is for breeds that dont fit in any of the other groups).

Trying to say that all breeds under the Utility and Toy groups were bred for practical purposes is ludicrous, unless you wish to include pets / show dogs as practical purposes, in which case all "designer" snakes are also practical.

To my mind, at least, herpetology is at the point where more people are learning about it and wanting to have pets of this type. These certainly arent always "shock value" pets, rather they are pets that match a lifestyle requirement - In the case of pythons at least, they are very low maintenance. Not to mention apartments that have a "no pets" policy often allow tenants to keep pythons, because they are kept in enclosures and generally not left to roam free. (I use pythons in the apartment example, because that is what I have and that is the response I have had from no pets apartments).

In addition to this, most people are neither interested in, nor set up to successfully breed these animals. Of course you will have backyard breeders (pun not intended ) who are unscrupulous and unethical, but if you try and tell me these people dont already exist (and have never existed in Australia's herp industry), I would laugh in your face and call you naieve.

Why is there not room in the industry for both people looking for a pet that is a bit unusual and low maintenance (something they can talk about and maybe show off a bit to their friends) and also room for the purists, who are only interested in maintaining "pure" sub-species lines?


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## cement (Aug 11, 2007)

I have even heard "true " herpers who don't beleive in albino's calling them a freak and something that should not be continued.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. THAT is why there will always be people who like a designer snake.

The natural ecosystems that our herps live in is what has been the principle mould for our true sub-species, but when you can keep a local top end snake in victoria due to captive methods this in fact is a little bit of playing god too isn't it?
I don't like the breeding of hybrids, but I don't dislike it either because it can and will be done.
I won't do it. But I am honest enough to say that I do look at all the american photos etc, and sometimes I see one i like.
We live in interesting times, change is inevitable, hang onto the pureblood lines for sure, but snakes were made to evolve quickly (thats why they are everywhere) so captive breeding of hybrids shouldn't really be as big an issue because if god didn't mean them to interbreed then they wouldn't be able to.
I'd love a jag carpet, but thats about it.


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## krusty (Aug 11, 2007)

bring on the freaks..........i like it.


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## Reptilian (Aug 11, 2007)

cement said:


> I have even heard "true " herpers who don't beleive in albino's calling them a freak and something that should not be continued.
> 
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. THAT is why there will always be people who like a designer snake.
> 
> ...




Well said, I agree that I love our "pure" bloodlines, but i too do like some of the "designer" snakes...I wouldnt x breed and i wouldnt buy a hybrid for the sake of it unless i REALLY like it...It will happen, it is what it is and a snake is a snake regardless of its heritage...

Regards...
Ash...


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## PhilK (Aug 11, 2007)

nvenm8 said:


> Of course it's the future! what else would all the retarded, dribbling morons that condone this sort of unethical practice do? Basically if you come from a family of inbreeds that have been line and selectively bred for stupidity this is the way to go! You can have freak pets that mimmick the whole family, they do say that owners look like their pets!
> That's why I'm as pure as the driven snow


That pure-race loving sentiment is suprisngly similair to this German fella who used to kick around...


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## Retic (Aug 11, 2007)

He was actually Austrian but the Germans seemed to like him ;-)


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## PhilK (Aug 11, 2007)

boa said:


> He was actually Austrian but the Germans seemed to like him ;-)


Dammit, I was hoping nobody would pick me up on that!!!


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## TrueBlue (Aug 12, 2007)

zoltag, imo why there is no room for hybrids in the hobby is quite simple really, many many crossed snakes will look like and will be passed off as pure stock. No matter how many times people say, "oh but its ok if they tell everyone what they are", rubbish, it just dosnt happen that whay and anybody who thinks this will be the case is not only naive but has rocks in their head, because it will and does happen. Simple as that.
It will end up putting pure animals in question, hell it already has on this site many times.
I recon we should have an open season on deliberate hybrid breeders for 2 weeks a year,(much like duck hunting season), so we can weed the trash out of the hobby before its to late. hahaha.


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## Nake (Aug 12, 2007)

Hey Guys,
I just wanna know WHY you all think hybridising is wrong. You all say it's wrong but don't give a reason. I guess the only thing is if they escape and reproduce with wild populations? Generally if two species can mate and produce viable offspring, it shows how closely related the two species are in evolutionary speak. If the animals can do it in captivity and are able to have contact in the wild, chances are they're doing it there too... I think that the pure animals are striking enough to lure the 'local idiot' to buy one for shock value and that breeding hybrids will not change that. With the dog analogy, purebreeds are prone to certain breed dispositions (problems or diseases) and lineage is checked to show that the puppy bred is less likely to show these dispositions. Crossbreeds in dogs are considered to be 'mongrels' as such however a crossbreed or mixedbreed dog is more likely to live longer and live healthier than purebreeds..


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## Josh (Aug 12, 2007)

I've seen 'the wall' in person. Not much for hybrids myself, but the cross was done both out of curiosity, and to possibly gain new understanding of the relationship between Aspidites and Python. Neat looking snakes for sure.
Cheers from the tundra!


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## Zoltag (Aug 12, 2007)

TrueBlue - Thats a fair point...

I'm thinking though that reputable breeders are unlikely to pass off anything as being other than it is, its more the "backyard" breeders that would try to pull a swifty and the way the industry is at the moment, there are no controls nor checks in place to prevent this type of practice from occurring (at least not that I know of)...

What I'm trying to say is that the way things are currently, it is not possible for someone new to keeping herps to be able to tell when a breeder is misrepresenting the animal they are selling. (From what I know, I dont think that experienced keepers are always able to tell, either).

There are ways around this, for instance does a formal national breeders association exist, with membership, rules and guidelines?

If so, then it needs to be advertised a lot more, with an emphasis on purchasing animals only from members of such an organisation (but for it to work properly, there needs to be room for all types of breeders, breeding all types of reptiles).

On top of that, the government needs to wake up and let pet stores start selling herps in NSW (and any other states that dont allow pet stores to sell them), which will provide another layer of protection against animals being misrepresented when being sold.

Finally, is there a certification system for pure-bred animals? - This is the sort of thing that will push the price of a pure-bred up somewhat, however it is also a (necessary, IMO) safeguard against having a hybrid passed off as pure, as anyone who is concerned about keeping their lines pure, or only owning pure-bred animals can demand the animal be certified, or to see the parents certifications.


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## Australis (Aug 12, 2007)

Zoltag,

Its not so much the "Backyard" breeder pulling a swifty, even if every single breeder of these mutts sold them honestly, the buyers often selling them on as something they are not.

Ive noticed recently on this site a few people who have purchased known mongrels/mutts/hybrids what ever you wish to label them, refering to them as something else. Within days of owning these hybrids they are posting photos on threads of what they now call "Coastals" when they are infact hybrids.

One change of hands and a few days is all its seems to take for a known hybrid to become a "Coastal", pretty dodgey.


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## junglepython2 (Aug 12, 2007)

Zoltag said:


> On top of that, the government needs to wake up and let pet stores start selling herps in NSW (and any other states that dont allow pet stores to sell them), which will provide another layer of protection against animals being misrepresented when being sold.
> 
> quote]
> 
> How do pet stores selling herps offer any form of protection??? Half of the ones in melb wouldn't know the difference between Jungle and a Coastal let alone a Coastal X and a pure Coastal.


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## Retic (Aug 12, 2007)

Zoltag, no amount of rules and regulations would stop it. There is no national breeders association and never likely to be one given the fragmented nature of our hobby. 
Pet shops selling reptiles wont do anything to stop or control it, what if they are sold hybrids without being told they are ? 
A certification system has been mentioned before but of course couldn't work as the buying public only has the word of the breeder that their breeding stock is pure and unless they collected all the animals from the wild themselves even they can't possibly know. 
Who would issue the certificates and how would they know what they were looking at was pure ? What if they certified just one 'pure' animal that later turned out to be something else ?



Zoltag said:


> TrueBlue - Thats a fair point...
> 
> I'm thinking though that reputable breeders are unlikely to pass off anything as being other than it is, its more the "backyard" breeders that would try to pull a swifty and the way the industry is at the moment, there are no controls nor checks in place to prevent this type of practice from occurring (at least not that I know of)...
> 
> ...


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## gold&black... (Aug 12, 2007)

One thing I know for sure, all of us here love snakes and not everyone is into locality specific animals... There r people who want snakes and even more snakes which are unique........ There is always gona b a market for locality specific animals and also a market for designer animals which r different..... Don't know if u will believe me but in the US, 99% of the jungles have been crossed with either diamonds or Jag's..... They might pay top $$$ for locality specific animals(because of scarcity) but here in AU, there are just too many breeders who breed pure animals and soon people are gona try breeding something different and it's happening.... Think abt it, how many of us in Au will pay top $$ for a jag.... If that line originated from one animal then how is it that u can get a jag in most carpet forms..... IMO there will b those purists and those who like morphs or hybrids... Both markets exist already and top $$$ r being paid to good animals as long as they are healthy and can breed cos when it's a hybrid animal, they usually are sterile (eg. the mule, a donkey and horse hybrid). Well, that’s just my opinion…. Cheers

G/B………


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## gold&black... (Aug 12, 2007)

oh by the way, those of u who might b wondering how I came up with that figure on Jungles in the US, I got it from a very reliable breeder from there and he happens to have written a book abt Australian pythons which most of us respect and most of u who know me know who I am talking abt..... cheers

G/B.......


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## obee (Aug 12, 2007)

I have tried to understand but can't get my head around this.That thing is absolute rubbish!Not to defend this practise in any way but linebred pure animals are all designer snakes.They may be of pure lines but a 7th generation palmerston jungle can look very different to its wild evolution moulded counterpart.We chose the breedings for desired traits.Natural goes straight out the door.This goes for any captive animal.Having a zoo history I've seen it with many species.A zoo bred macropod eg Agile wallaby buck after generations doesn't even look the same as a wild breeding male and infact if it could even survive in the wild would stand no chance of reproducing.Morphs are perhaps of pure lineage but really have no bearing whatsoever on wild populations.Thats why they rarely occur in the wild.I guess nature takes care of this rubbish its us that enhance it.I think ppl get confused about species and breeds.As Rob already stated for eg all carpets are the same species containing various subspecies.A purebred dog is exactly the same species as a crossbreed.Infact many breeds are the result of crossing different breeds.Always an interesting discussion topic.I will forever be a so called purist and physically feel ill when I see crap like this.However my jungles are what I think is nice to look at and nothing like what nature intented them to look like generally.To have a registerd line of animals would be desirable but very difficult.They would have to fall within a set standard as all dog breeds do and many registrations of dog breeds began.Variation within species of a locale can be quite extensive.Some non-pure animals may fit within a standard so problems could occur right from the getgo.Just my thoughts.

Cheers Obee.


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## jay76 (Aug 12, 2007)

I have no problem with people breeding hybrids, I wouldnt do it but some of them are bloody nice, as long as the people selling them say that they are crosses not pure


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## gold&black... (Aug 12, 2007)

cant agree enough with u obee and Jarrod......


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## PhilK (Aug 12, 2007)

I reckon knowledge is key. Breed as many hybrids as you want, but make sure EVERYONE KNOWS they're hybrids and DON'T sell them as a coastal morph or whatever happens. If that happens, I've got no issues with hybridisation


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## PilbaraPythons (Aug 12, 2007)

In my opinion a 7th generation jungle bred from jungles found from the same area would look like just like you would expect to find in the wild from that area. I challenge any body to show me a jungle in captivity that has been line bred to a point that you would not find an example similar in the wild if you looked hard enough. I have yet to see a single specimen that looked unnatural besides hybrids. To simplify it (and this is a very crude analogy) you can only create so many different colours with only two paints. In any given area of habitat and in our case captivity there is a given gene pool and therefore theoretically speaking a set limitation of traits be it pattern or other wise to be enhanced or expressed. We could never live long enough to ever see them all but it could not be infinite. Unlike our set limitations we have with the captive reptiles we own, in the wild gene flow will be more diverse and of course, evolution plays an eventual hand e.g changing the paint pigment.
Bring into captivity jungles, from different area, distance extremes and you basically start adding other colours of paint (Yes I know it a crude analogy) with more possibility of enhancing traits that perhaps you might not see in either area naturally.


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## gold&black... (Aug 12, 2007)

Hard enough........ that the catch.... Show me a wild caught SUPER STRIPE jungle......... cheers

G/B..........


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## Rennie (Aug 12, 2007)

gold&black... said:


> Hard enough........ that the catch.... Show me a wild caught SUPER STRIPE jungle......... cheers
> 
> G/B..........



The genes are there, they may not be common but they could pop up naturally, in the wild every now and then.


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## PilbaraPythons (Aug 12, 2007)

Not sure what you mean by super striped jungles ? but I have seen striped jungles in the wild as would have many others. 

Cheers Dave


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## gold&black... (Aug 12, 2007)

Can’t argue with that.......... By the way Dave that read u had on Truebluereptiles explaining jungles was fantastic..... Don’t think anyone explained jungles as well as that......


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## PilbaraPythons (Aug 13, 2007)

There is still a lot missing from that tale and I can't wait to learn about it. Brad Maryan sums it up well when he describes reptile knowledge as being a large painting that is never quite finished but continually been changed and added while growing bigger by more artists who find something to contribute.


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## Zoltag (Aug 13, 2007)

Australis - Thats why a certification system is needed - If the animal isnt certified, then it cant be claimed to be a pure anything...Sure, it may look like a coastal / whatever, but everyone will know it isnt, because it doesnt have the surety of certification...Yes, certification would probably be expensive, however I believe that given the amount of money being handed over for animals at the moment, a breeder wouldnt be too put out in paying a bit extra to be 100% sure that they are getting what they are paying for (which is the beginning of a whole other discussion about so-called hybrids and why they exist)...

junglepython2 - Selling through the pet stores isnt something that would be effective on its own - It is something that must be done in conjunction with having some form of national breeders association and additional guidelines to only allow such members access to selling their animals through / to pet stores (ie, on top of that)...Obviously for it to work it would also require significant policing (at least initially - Once the association is properly recognised and seen to take effective action, the level of policing required would decrease)...

boa - Relying on the word of breeders as to purity of stock is insane, as you have already mentioned...There are, however, recognised traits, DNA samples and methods of identifying distinct sub-species scientifically, which is what would need to be used to independantly verify pure-bred animals...If a sub-species can only be identified through lineage and not through any other recognised scientific method, then such a sub-species is obviously not a real classification and should be dissolved back into the parent species...

The situation simply cannot be left the way it is at the moment, for obvious reasons...


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