# What can be kept with Turtles to assist with keeping the tank clean?



## Gecko :) (Sep 8, 2011)

[h=6]Hey Guys,

I am posting this on behalf of a friend & also as I am interested in getting some turtles soon down the track I would also like to know.

What can my friend put in with her turtle that will eat green algae, thats big enough not to get eaten by the turtle but not too big that it might hurt him?
"Franklin" the long neck is one and a half years old and can fit in the palm of her hand, his shell is I about the size of a large m*andarin if that helps.*[/h][h=6]*... any suggestions??
*[/h]*
My first thought was some kind of catfish or snails? anyone successfully keep these with turtles?*


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## Mace699 (Sep 8, 2011)

a large plecostumus mine lasted for ages till my ex poisoned the water thankfully turtle survived fish did not


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## -Peter (Sep 8, 2011)

Good water exchange, condition and temps plus a good filter.


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## killimike (Sep 8, 2011)

I second that Peter.

By far the easiest thing is to watch the water quality and the amount of light, and clean any unwanted algae off manually with a sponge or brush, depending on where it is.

A pleco is a poor algae eater, and a complete poo machine!


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## Amazing Amazon (Sep 8, 2011)

Keep your tank away from natural sunlight.
Paul


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## Bluetonguesblack (Sep 9, 2011)

Put a native Golden carp or similar in with your "tortiose", turtles have flippers and not legs was my understanding. They live happily in the wild together and seem to do great at doing what you want in conjunction with a good filter. Good luck. Ross.


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## Mr.James (Sep 9, 2011)

Bluetonguesblack said:


> Put a native Golden carp or similar in with your "tortiose", turtles have flippers and not legs was my understanding. QUOTE]
> 
> What do you think eastern long necked 'turtles' have...feet? They have webbed feet/flippers..Tortioses live on land, & I'm no expert but I wasnt aware of any Tortioses in Australia.
> 
> Kelly as already been mentioned above, get some good large filters, its the best option. Then you can work on what other cool things to put in with you turtle..maybe another six turtles? LOL


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## JAS101 (Sep 9, 2011)

Bluetonguesblack said:


> Put a native Golden carp or similar in with your "tortiose", turtles have flippers and not legs was my understanding. They live happily in the wild together and seem to do great at doing what you want in conjunction with a good filter. Good luck. Ross.


 my understanding is Tortioses are a land only reptile where as turtles can go on either land or water.


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## killimike (Sep 9, 2011)

Bluetonguesblack said:


> Put a native Golden carp or similar in with your "tortiose", turtles have flippers and not legs was my understanding. They live happily in the wild together and seem to do great at doing what you want in conjunction with a good filter. Good luck. Ross.



What is a 'native golden carp'? In any case, no need to add one to your bioload to try and control algae. To do that, cut down on the bioload, the light, and up the filtration and waterchanges.

Another six snake necks may add slightly to the waste going into the tank


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## Gecko :) (Sep 9, 2011)

Thank you everyone for their replies,. even to those that dont know what they are talking about but still gave it a crack 

I have checked with my friend & she has confirmed she has a really good filter n nope it doesnt get any sunlight but she has been told the light could be causing some aglae?.. she said she sometimes turns it off when they are not home but then she said she feels bad that franklins is in a darkish tank lol.. 
Its not real bad algae because she always clean out the tank, but thats sometimes a pain so she was hoping something would help and maybe she would only have to clean it half as often or so?

Anyone know if snails are an option? will it cause the* turtle* any problems if he eats them?


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## killimike (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks for the additional info Kelly.

Being out of sunlight is a great start, will help avoid temp swings too. Re the fluro light, one idea is to put that on timer, that way you don't have to worry about remembering to turn it on and off. It shouldn't cause an algae outbreak if it's only on 8-10 hours, it might be possible to have it off when you are out, and then have it come on when you get home and are going to want to see Franklin, like from late arvo onwards. I suppose it's good to check that the lighting is just a single fluro tube? Unless you are also growing plants, a single fluro the length of the tank, or even a little less, should be plenty. As for basking and UV for the little guy, that will be a different story, potentially, but that's for people more exp w turtles to deal with.

Good filtration, check. Tho, as you know, the filter breaks down the waste products into less harmful forms to fish and turtles, but the end products still need to be removed from the system by water changes. These end products can still feed algae, even tho they are less harmful to the turtle. So even with the best filter, you still need water changes to export the nutrients. And if there is a lot of algae, it's likely that there are alot of nutrients still in the water.

Snail may be an option, tho I have no idea if the turtle will eat them w out any issues, tho I would guess so since people feed theirs garden snails etc. You would want to get little 'pond snails' or ramshorns, and you might need to keep an eye on their numbers and thin them out regularly, and watch that they do not clog your filter by getting caught en masse in a pipe somewhere. 

Snails suffer the same issue as adding fish tho, you are adding waste producing animals to clean up a problem that is caused by an excess of waste and light. It is possible to make it all balance out, but I would just shorten the photoperiod and do more waterchanges.

Sorry for the essay


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## LilMissSnakey (Sep 9, 2011)

I had a murray river short neck when iw as growing up (he lived til he was 18, and then was poisoned by my ex, yes ex after that!) he grew to the size of a dinner plate, i used to have just normal pet shop 'sucking' fish in the tank... i found theyre easier to get and with a good size fish they grow together. It kept the glass quiet clean as well as eats all the algae... every now and again you might find one chomped on but they generally stay away from other aquatic creatures. and theyre usually only $5 from any loccal pet shop


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## PythonLegs (Sep 9, 2011)

Technically Bluetonguesblack is right- they have feet, so they're tortoises, wether in water or on land- except for the pig nose, which has flippers, and sea turtles. Which is lovely, but completely irrelevant. _www.*australian*freshwater*turtles*.com.au/index.php_ is the place to ask this question, but my understanding is that turtles will try and eat anything they can catch, so the cheapie chinese algae eaters are the way to go- not bristlenoses or any type of pleco, as they have spines. And yes, out of direct sunlight and high filtration will make the algae manageable, but it will still need to be cleaned every now and then.

Oh- and it won't hurt the turtle to eat snails, they love them- but if the snails lay eggs, you'll have thousands, all through the gravel, climbing out of the tanks..probably better to avoid them.


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## Shotta (Sep 10, 2011)

you should try golden apple snails they work in my fishtank they grow bigger than ramshorns and don't breed as quick, another thing you could try using a uv steriliser filter or a protein skimmer though i dont think they can be used for freshwater lol. other than that a canister filter would be perfect and maybe some otoclinus they pretty much thrive on algae hope that helps


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## Dragon-Nut (Sep 10, 2011)

Kelly, your friend can also get something called a "Phos Pad" from most aquairum shops. It goes inside the canister filter and is a special media pad which removes phosphates from the water whilst it is being filtered in the canister filter. By removing phosphates from the water, it will help to reduce algae growth, however, nothing beats regular maintenance and cleaning, as well as water changes. Protein skimmer won't help either, it's for marine tanks, not freshwater and it won't help reduce algae.

Slightly off topic, but there are no native tortoises in Australia. Australia only has turtles, and they have webbed feet with claws (except for the pig nose turtle as someone has already mentioned). I'm referring to freshwater turtles by the way, not sea turtles which have flippers and live in saltwater. The distinction between tortoises and turtles is that tortoises are land dwelling and cannot live in water, whereas turtles are aquatic in nature and spends some or most of the time in water, depending on species.


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## Bluetonguesblack (Sep 10, 2011)

As i said, it was only my understanding that tortoise`s had legs with joints and seperate feet as opposed to flippers. We were americanised many years ago with that. Sorry, whoa. . A golden carp is a fish which is NOT the filthy european carp species, but a native to us here in australia. They are plentiful in this part of the country.. Unless i`m wrong. again!!.

Seems like i Am wrong about the carp. What i`ve called golden carp for over 40yrs `appears` to be another immigrant called a "Crucian Carp" .They are a light golden colour and different to the european carp that has the bad reputation. I`ll just hide under my log now!.


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## Shotta (Sep 10, 2011)

just wondering then what is a Terrapin? is a terrapin the one that goes on both land and water?


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## Dragon-Nut (Sep 12, 2011)

Terrapin is not generally used in Australia. It's quite confusing actually as it depends on whether you're in the UK or in the USA. In the UK, a Terrapin is use to describe semi-aquatic turtles which lives both in the water and out of it. In the USA, Terrapins generally refers to turtles which live in "brackish" water - the bit of water where freshwater meets sea water. That is the very short, simple version anyway. In Australia, most of our turtles are freshwater turtles.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 12, 2011)

*Part 1*

*Turtle Aquaria and Alagae*
Killimike did well to explain most of the waste issue. Turtles take in their food and break down what they can to use for growth and energy. What they cannot breakdown comes out as solid waste = poo. What is used for growth remains in the body. What is used for energy is broken down completely and released as soluble wastes – ammonia, urea and dissolved minerals such as phosphates. Ammonia is extremely toxic and if allowed to build up, would soon get to the level where the health of the animals living in the tank was affected. It could ultimately kill them.

*Filtration*
Filtration is of two or three types.... 
*Physical Filtration* removes undissolved particles and debris suspended in the water. So bit of undigested food stirred up by the turtles movement would be removed in this manner to keep the water clear. 
*Biological Filtration* does not actually physically remove anything from the water. What is does do is to use bacteria and oxygen to change the extremely toxic ammonia into far less toxic nitrites and then to change these into the fairly low toxicity nitrates. Some filters also have 
*Chemical Filtration* where by certain dissolved minerals can be removed. Things like activated carbon, zeolite, and the example given earlier for phosphates. Note: Simple addition of zeolite to the bottom of the tank can be very useful (depending upon your filtration set up and method of cleaning). Activated carbon is effective for only a very limited time and needs to be replaced or re-activated (dried and heated). Very few freshwater tanks use continuous chemical filtration – it is too much work for too little gain. 

*UVC sterilisation* can be incorporated with filtration. Exposure to strong UVC radiation kills anything biological in the water. This will help slow the colonisation of algae but will not stop it happening and progressing once it gets started.


*Nutrient Loads and Algal Growth*
Plants use ammonia, urea and nitrates as their main source of nutrients plus the other minerals like phosphates. These nutrients are being continually in produced in an aquarium from as a result of the soluble wastes produced by animals in that aquarium. The level of these wastes collectively is often simply referred to as the *nutrient load* in the water.
The other thing plants need is *energy*, which they get from *light*. The rate of growth of plants will be limited by the level of availability of either nutrients or light. In the limited volume of a tank, the nutrient levels tend to be higher than in nature, so providing strong light such as sunlight allows very rapid plant growth. Algae is one of the most rapid growers under such conditions and and depending on what varieties are already present in the water, the algae may quickly cover the glass, gravel and anything else, including the turtle’s shell. Or it may turn the water green like pea soup. If nutrients levels were close to zero, it would not matter how much light was provided, algal (and other plant) growth would be very limited.

The turtle’s light should not be cut back. It should be getting 8 to 12 hours each day. The suggestion by Killimike to user a timer is excellent advice and I strongly your friend do so. The real problem is how to reduce the nutrients present in the water, bearing in mind they are being continuously produced.


*How to Reduce Nutrient Loads
*Do *NOT over-feed* the turtle. Give it just what it needs and no more. Extra food means extra nutrients for plant growth.

*Change* a significant volume of the *water* on a regular basis. A water change of 50% will remove half of the nutrients. Scheme water does have minerals in it but not nitrogenous minerals. The ideal would be to replace it with rainwater if you can get it but that it is by not means essential.

Have *animals* that eat algae and *grow* as a result. The poo these animals produce is primarily cellulose that was not digested and this does not add to the nutrient load. A percentage of what they eat will be converted to energy and will therefore reconvert some plant material into nutrient load. Note: If they are not growing, they are not converting algae into part of their biomass and will be simply recycling the nutrients. The faster they grow the more of the nutrient load they are removing. So once they reach near adult size, remove and replace with younger animals. 

Some animals you could add are… Crayfish large enough for the tortoise not to eat are a possibility. The cheap algae eaters tend to grow fast – so they’d be good. Ramshorn snails will do a good job if you don’t mind several dozen or more. There are some beautiful colours available, such as pink or blue. I have never tried Apple Snails but that suggestion might be worthwhile. Note: Do NOT use pond snails – the ones with the conical shell – as they will eat water plants. Ramshorn will graze algae off of water plants without doing much damage.

Have *plants* in your tank that the turtle will not eat and will grow rapidly enough to remove the nutrients and out grow the algae. Ribbon Weed (Vallis or Vallisneria) is probably the best choice here. Turtles will eat it in small quantities but its rapid growth, especially under high nutrient loads, will compensate. Simply harvest it on a regular basis and throw in the compost. You can also grow some pants hydroponically with only their roots in the water, rooted into the gravel e.g. Spathiphyllum, Philodendrons, Devil’s Ivy, Dwarf Papyrus, Dwarf Bulrushes etc. All will help to assist in removing nutrients from the water.

Vallis would be my first preference. Then maybe plus algae eaters plus ramshorn snails.

Blue


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## solar 17 (Sep 12, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> There are a few points that clearing up.
> 
> Firstly, the terms ‘tortoise’, ‘turtle’ and ‘terrapin’ are not part of scientific classification. They are common names. Beginning of the 1970s there was a push to get the terms to align more with the scientific classifications and therefore be more meaningful. Scientific classification distinguishs between those adapted to a completely terrestrial existence and those capable of living partly or wholly in water. Terrestrial forms have solid, stubbed feet with short, thick digits bearing broad flat nails and lacking any webbing between them. Partially aquatic forms have less robust limbs, with relatively much longer digits, each bearing a claw and with substantial webbing between them. In totally aquatic species, the upper and lower limbs are relatively short while the digits are elongated and interspersed by fleshy tissue to form a flipper.
> 
> ...


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## killimike (Sep 12, 2011)

Excellent stuff Blue! I agree with Baden  Now -that- is how you write an essay


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 12, 2011)

*Part 2*

Thanks fellas. 

My 'essay' was a little too long, so have split into labelled sections and divided the content into two parts - that were separarte answers anyway. Snuck if a few extra details while I was at it.

Cheers,
Blue

*Tortoise, turtle or terrapin?*
The terms ‘tortoise’, ‘turtle’ and ‘terrapin’ are not part of scientific classification. They are common names. Beginning of the 1970s there was a push to get the terms to align more with the scientific classifications and therefore be more meaningful. Scientific classification distinguishs between those adapted to a completely terrestrial existence and those capable of living partly or wholly in water. *Terrestrial forms* have solid, stubbed feet with short, thick digits bearing broad flat nails and lacking any webbing between them. *Partially aquatic forms* have less robust limbs, with relatively much longer digits, each bearing a claw and with substantial webbing between them. In *totally aquatic species*, the upper and lower limbs are relatively short while the digits are elongated and interspersed by fleshy tissue to form a flipper.

Initially, Australian freshwater chelonians were called tortoises. In particular, _Chelonia longicollis_ was known as the Common Snake-necked Tortoise. (That name is still used today by some.) They were more often sighted when on land and I am sure a lot of people did not realise just how aquatic they really are, as many used to kept in pens or on a chain attached to the shell, with only a bowl of water available for drinking.

Based on the fact that all *land chelonians* worldwide were called *tortoises* and that all totally *aquatic chelonians* worldwide were called *turtles*, it was deemed appropriate that Australia’s freshwater chelonians, which are *semi-aquatic*, bar one that is fully aquatic, should be referred to as *turtles*.

Dragon-nut is correct about the origins of terrapin. It was originally applied to certain members of a genus of North America brackish water turtles and has been picked up by the pet trade in the UK and is generally used to apply to some or all semi-aquatic turtles. This usage has fed back to the USA where the term now has a much broader use that originally. We would not use the term at all under our system of common names.


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## peteandkel (Sep 17, 2011)

Does anyone know if a macquarie short neck would get along with a krefft turtle if put in the same tank?? 

Also, my turtle is best friends with a Bumblebee Goby and the only problem we have with excess algae is directly under one of the lights which is also near a window and gets natural light. We clean it with a brush and we have no problems.


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## Bluetonguesblack (Sep 17, 2011)

No comment ! i`ll get in trouble. lol. And thanks for the info Blue, I now know the real differences between turtles and tortoises. They say that your never too old to learn something new. My apologies.


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