# is it cruel to keep a snake in captivity?



## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Just wondering, i know everyone will say no cos they either keep or breed them, but its worth some debate?


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

generally only murderers get life imprisonment?


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

OK Guys, i know most of you look after your snakes really well, but is it the same as living in the wild or better for them, im not been god here, just interested?


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## reptileonthego (May 20, 2006)

this topic or something like this has came up before.
it is better for the ones that are kepted in captivity as the wild one might only get a couple of feeds a year. 
so now i would say it is up to u to work the rest out for ur self.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

True but they seem to survive in the wild? Hey im not been smart here just looking for honest answers!


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## jordo (May 20, 2006)

I think reptiles are more well of in captivity because they are free from predators, competition and extreme conditions in the environment. In terms of cage size I think it is cruel, before I get burnt for this eg: "why do you keep reptiles then?" (have a go at me if you want I don't really care), I do try and make my animals lives more interesting by - housing lizards in large outdoor enclosures, changing cage furniture around and swapping logs and leaves etc to give them new smells and things to investigate, also I take my reptiles out for walks outside their enclosures. All of these things tend to make most of my animals more active and alert and happy, so I will keep doing them as long as they don't get stressed. JMO


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Good on you Jordo, i guess as long as they get plenty of exercise they are happy!


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## repam (May 20, 2006)

is it cruel to keep cats dogs birds fish any animal its a matter of opinion

repam


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## SnakeWrangler (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> generally only murderers get life imprisonment?


I guess you don't keep them??

I guess I have to ask, why ask this question on a reptile site?? Do you honestly think you will find someone who is going to say yes??


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

i dont expect a yes answer, but to compare dogs and cats to reptiles is silly, they are not kept in cages, if they were they would be reported to the rspca?


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## Kersten (May 20, 2006)

And they're off....


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Well do you keep the snakes for your own selfish reasons, do you think the snakes like being locked up all there lives?????


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## nickvelez (May 20, 2006)

keeping reptiles in appropriate enclosures would appear to be less''cruel'' than keeping birds in cages. some reptiles may appear to be happier in a more enclosed space. perhaps they are more psychologically adapted to captivity than birds?


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

[sarcasm] 
I think it is downright cruel to keep wild animals in a wooden box. Reptiles or otherwise it is just not right for people to have pets. 

Therefore I have drilled a hole in my Turtles carapace and tied it to a long length of thin rope. Now he has free run of the entire backyard. 
[/sarcasm]


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Oh so you can tell that the reptile is happy, from what ive read on here most snakes bite, maybe they dont like been locked in a cage day and night?


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## Kersten (May 20, 2006)

Do you keep any herps Super??

Sorry J and C....that's just not good enough, the backyard is far too small :lol: . Pass me the popcorn someone....this is going to be painful :twisted:


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## waruikazi (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> Well do you keep the snakes for your own selfish reasons, do you think the snakes like being locked up all there lives?????



Yes i keep snakes and other herps because *i like them*.

What are you hoping to get out of this thread? This is a dead end topic and it would appear to me that you are trying to start an argument or just trying to bump up your post count.



> Just wondering, i know everyone will say no cos they either keep or breed them, but its worth some debate?



You have answered your own question quite well here.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> [sarcasm]
> I think it is downright cruel to keep wild animals in a wooden box. Reptiles or otherwise it is just not right for people to have pets.
> 
> Therefore I have drilled a hole in my Turtles carapace and tied it to a long length of thin rope. Now he has free run of the entire backyard.
> [/sarcasm]



good maybe they will appreciate that, snakes on leads anyone?


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## Kersten (May 20, 2006)

Do

You

Keep

Herps

Supertaipan??


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

That's news to me, I have maybe 3 that bite occassionally.



Supertaipan said:


> , from what ive read on here most snakes bite,


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## serpenttongue (May 20, 2006)

I dont consider it cruel if their needs are met. I consider it cruel if they are neglected.

I've never felt guilty putting reptiles in small enclosures as i believe confined spaces makes many of them feel more secure. Reptiles have home ranges in the wild but many may not travel far in their entire lives. As an example, Cunningham Skinks and Black Rock skinks (which live in colonies) most likely occupy a select few rock crevices for life. Dominant wild male Water Dragons can be found basking on their favourite creek bank year after year, and i'd imagine it's the same for all species in one way or another. Even lizards kept in pits tend to favour certain areas within the pit and will stick to those areas. Many wild snakes can stay hidden under debris, in hollow logs etc for weeks throughout the year so i dont think confined spaces are really a problem for them.

Also, although i think reptiles can be quite intelligent, i would imagine that captive reptiles just dont have the intellect to realise that they are caged from the big wide world out there, and just except the environment that their owners have given them.


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## Nome (May 20, 2006)

In a way I think it's not a bad debate. We've often thought of it ourselves, and I guess in a way that's why we don't like handling ours.

ST put it well....they don't have the interlect to think 'im missing something here'. The times I think it is cruel (in my opinion and don't flame me for it) is when people always want to be walking around with a snake on them, as though they are something that's a domestic pet when they certainly are not. People say their snake doesn't mind it, but how do they know? And when they are taken out of their enclosures for long periods of time and dont' have the opportunity to regulate their own temperature at these times of the year.

It is a very personal thing...I'm after a particular species of snake at the moment where it looks like the only way I can get one is if it is legally caught for me. I turned this down because I don't feel it's my right to decide something doesn't have freedom anymore just because I want it in my collection...to me that is cruel, but many others don't think it is, so it is a very personal thing.

And on top of all that, you can keep any pet in a way that is cruel if it is not kept properly, there is a proportion of people in this hobby that don't keep their reptiles properly- things like buying the animal and not having anything set up to keep it in, not providing it with the basics such as heat etc.


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## Rennie (May 20, 2006)

You said only murderers get life in prison, well correct me if I'm wrong but all snakes are murderers if given the chance are they not? :lol: You say that most pythons bite when handled but I think you'll find that its their instinct to bite, if they don't they soon die of starvation. Besides not all of us handle our pythons frequently and stress them out (not that I'm saying frequent handling stresses them)

I think you'll find that only about 0.1 to 10 percent (very rough estimation) of wild animals survive to maturity so we are giving them a much better chance, most breders would say they have 90 to 99 percent survival rates I think.

You say dogs and cats aren't kept in cages, fair enough, but a lot of pets are, like birds, fish, rats, mice, guinea pigs, etc. and I'think you'll find that most pythons spend a fair chunk of their lives in confined spaces, they seem to find confined spaces comfortable and safe. If you give it a nice big enclosure with a tight fitting hiding place, it will spend most of its time in the hiding place.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Thanks guys, you have made sense, im still thinking about getting a snake, guess i was just feeling a bit guilty about keeping it in a enclosure, when naturally they have freedom?


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## NoOne (May 20, 2006)

I think Supertaipan has raised a great question here.

Yes i think it's cruel to keep reptiles in captivity, it's something i struggle with regularly.
I think it's cruel to keep any animal for your personal pleasure, and like it or not that is the base reason that we keep reptiles.

You can say anything you want about how reptiles get it easy in captivity or how not many survive to maturity etc, those points are irrelevant because thats nature, thats how it should be no matter how tough.

It is cruel IMO to keep reptiles in captivity we as keepers should try and make their lives as good as possible, i like to only buy CB reptiles, i also personally try and sell any reptiles i breed cheaper than the going rate so that people can get could quality animals for a reasonable price without buying WC.
All you can do is your best to provide for your animals.

It's a tough situation for us to be in, it doesn't bother some people, but it does get to me at times.


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## mciver (May 20, 2006)

Super, read my PM

Paul


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## jimmy_the_kid (May 20, 2006)

Nome said:


> In a way I think it's not a bad debate. We've often thought of it ourselves, and I guess in a way that's why we don't like handling ours.
> 
> ST put it well....they don't have the interlect to think 'im missing something here'. The times I think it is cruel (in my opinion and don't flame me for it) is when people always want to be walking around with a snake on them, as though they are something that's a domestic pet when they certainly are not. People say their snake doesn't mind it, but how do they know? And when they are taken out of their enclosures for long periods of time and dont' have the opportunity to regulate their own temperature at these times of the year.
> 
> ...



Flame, flame, flame he he he


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## repam (May 20, 2006)

cats are supposed to be locked up at night and a lot of dogs are chained up ,birds kept in very small cages shall i go on .if you want to push animal cruelty do it properly not selectivly .i would applaud you if you did but you have selected one animal and excusing the rest.Someone has to say it you sir are an IDIOT


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

I dont think its an idiotic question to ask? Obviously you have no consience?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 20, 2006)

> adj 1: lacking or showing kindness or compassion or mercy [syn: unkind] 2: (of persons or their actions) able or disposed to inflict pain or suffering; "a barbarous crime"; "brutal beatings"; "cruel tortures";


dictionary definition,=cruel
either you are a cruel keeper or you are not,
a great question i think ,cant be anwered unless you can teach a snake to talk ..i struggle with it myself, especially when i see them trying to get out and rubbing noses on their 'cages'especially the more intelligent animals,ie. monitors
baz


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## repam (May 20, 2006)

Read it properly ,i said you were an idiot .The question is old but still a good one for discussion.Obviously you have a very short sighted view on animal cruelty


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## NoOne (May 20, 2006)

repam, this is a reptile forum, where else would he raise the question........and you call him an idiot :roll:


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

What part of keeping a snake in prison dont you understand, you my friend are the idiot?


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Lets all get a creative hobby that is not cruel to any living thing. 
Anyone want to start an origami forum :lol:


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

You are avoiding the issue-how would you like to be caged for life??????????????


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Well it isn't silly to think it may be cruel to keep snakes, it is only silly to think it is cruel to keep snakes but not cruel to keep other animals, dogs would wander for kilometres if allowed to, yet they are chained up or locked in small backyards and most owners don't even walk their dogs on a daily basis. Birds fly for kilometres yet we lock them up in little cages, birds which are often very social, sometimes living in large flocks(for example Budgerigahs) yet people keep them in solitary confinement. So really in a way reptiles are more suited to captivity than most popular pets, so if you want a pet but want the one that is least cruel to keep then get a snake.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

At least dogs are not kept in a small enclosure?


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan, you have already made your mind up that it is a cruel practise by arguing with everyone that shares a differing opinion than your own. So now that we have concluded the correct answer for you, will you be leaving the site & the hobby to fullfill another hobby you may enjoy without guilt?


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## NoOne (May 20, 2006)

Same thing people can't think it's not cruel to keep snakes but not other animals.
It's cruel IMO to keep any non domesticated animal in captivity, but this is about reptiles thats the question being asked.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 20, 2006)

> You are avoiding the issue-how would you like to be caged for life??????????????


was with you untill you started anthropmorphising  
stay on track st, this is a good question


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan to an animal that wants to wander for kilometres on a daily basis a backyard is tiny. It is extremely restrictive to what their natural instincts tell them they want to do. They are also rarely given the opportunity to mate and raise their pups, which is one of the prime objectives of canines.


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## repam (May 20, 2006)

your just up for an argument bye my last post on the matter.


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## waruikazi (May 20, 2006)

My last also i shouldn't have come in in the first place.


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

I dont mind, i'll argue til the sun goes down if he wants, i've already demonstrated why his stance that it is less cruel to keep dogs is incorrect, what else have you got Supertaipan?


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## serpenttongue (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> You are avoiding the issue-how would you like to be caged for life??????????????



As i said earlier, i dont believe that snakes are intelligent enough to realise that they are caged for life. I would think that there's only a limited amount of thought that goes through their brain at any one time.

If being caged was that much of a problem for them i doubt that breeders would be getting such good results breeding their animals each year.


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## Nagraj (May 20, 2006)

Parko said:


> ............. So really in a way reptiles are more suited to captivity than most popular pets, so if you want a pet but want the one that is least cruel to keep then get a snake.



This is a typical straw man argument and has been presented by several others in this thread. You are trying to justify the keeping of snakes by making something else seem worse. It is a dishonest form of argument.




I suspect that if you honestly analyse your justification for keeping captive snakes then you can only reach the conclusion that it's for selfish reasons and the snakes mental welfare is of little importance. That doesn't make it right or wrong and every particular individual has to decide for themselves whether it's acceptable or not.

In the past I have had a reasonably large captive bird population but a few years ago decided it was morally incorrect and now my cages are usually filled with recuperating or injured native wildlife.

All that aside, I have recently decided that I am interested in keeping a snake or two and believe that I can do a reasonable enough job of simulating a natural environment that my misgivings have been overcome.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Dogs get exercised. are not kept in 4 ft cages I do not believe snakes are born to be kept in 4 ft cages.


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Well dont get 1 ya goose.
Simple as that. Now that you have made up your mind move on with your life & stop trying to verbally bash those that think differently.


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## Nagraj (May 20, 2006)

You raise an interesting an important question Supertaipan. Any gratuitous insults are a reflection of the posters intellect not yours.


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## jordo (May 20, 2006)

> dogs would wander for kilometres if allowed to, yet they are chained up or locked in small backyards and most owners don't even walk their dogs on a daily basis. Birds fly for kilometres yet we lock them up in little cages, birds which are often very social, sometimes living in large flocks(for example Budgerigahs) yet people keep them in solitary confinement


IMO the discussion is about reptiles whether it is cruel to keep them in captivity. There is no need to compare very different animals.
Even though this isn't the point, if left your average maltese or labrador in the bush it would die. Dogs have adapted to live with and depend on humans, whereas reptiles if they escape are self sufficient.

- I know some people neglect their pet cats, dogs etc but we're talking about reptiles, they are completly different topics when you think about it.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

I never said i would not keep them , just asked if its cruel or not?


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

No Nagraj, 
He has given everyone a chance to say their piece, but then he argues with their opinions. It all comes down to self opinion. If you feel guilty over an animals captivity then don't keep it. If you don't then go ahead. There is laws against cruelty to animals and with those laws comes cage requirements etc. If it was such a cruel thing to do it would be outlawed IMO.

I also keep birds, fish & dogs. I am totally against those little fish bowls pet shops sell & have participated in pertitions to try & delete them from production. I have a large tank that is not overcrowded. I have a large back yard for my dogs, & I have a large aviary for my birds.

Whether it is right or wrong is the opinion of the keeper...


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## NoOne (May 20, 2006)

How is he verbally bashing anyone? I think this is one of the better thread APS has ever had.
You can't compare domesticated dogs to reptiles, our to dogs aren't chained up and when they want to they do get out, do they wander for miles? No they sit in the front doorstep and wait for us to come home. Why? Because they know that our house is their home, it's where food and people are.

We don't keep reptiles for any other reason than for our own enjoyment, no one yet has given any other decent reason.
There isn't anything wrong with keeping reptiles if done properly but the answer to the broader question is yes.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Nobody has given me a sufficient argument to keep a snake in a cage, therefore i will not.


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## Nagraj (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> .......... just asked if its cruel or not?




There is no doubt that there's some degree of cruelty in keeping a snake in even the best maintained enclosure. Is it cruel to leave them in the wild? Well an equally valid argument could be made that it is.

In the end it's up to you to decide for yourself if it's ok to do keep them enclosed and safe from predators etc.


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## jordo (May 20, 2006)

> Is it cruel to leave them in the wild?


No


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

But surely the wild is the natural environment? they have survived for thousands of years quite well? :lol:


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## Nagraj (May 20, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> No Nagraj,
> He has given everyone a chance to say their piece, but then he argues with their opinions.



This is how people learn and make informed decisions.





JandC_Reptiles said:


> Whether it is right or wrong is the opinion of the keeper...



Absolutely, but it can still be cruel independantly of the opinion of the keeper.


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## Ramsayi (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> Nobody has given me a sufficient argument to keep a snake in a cage, therefore i will not.



Its a personal decision.Keep or not up to you.Very strange you are even on this site considering your opinion about it.


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> Nobody has given me a sufficient argument to keep a snake in a cage, therefore i will not.



Why do we need to argue? You have got the exact answer you wanted to hear. I agree, pretty much everyone else has agreed also that it is cruel to an extent to keep ANY ANIMAL.

So now that a straight answer has been given what is the outcome Supertaipan? Is this stopping you from getting a snake now? or are you going to be cruel like the rest of us, who you are trying to start an arguement with lol


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 20, 2006)

Quote: ? 
adj 1: lacking or showing kindness or compassion or mercy [syn: unkind] 2: (of persons or their actions) able or disposed to inflict pain or suffering; "a barbarous crime"; "brutal beatings"; "cruel tortures"; 


dictionary definition,=cruel 
either you are a cruel keeper or you are not, 
a great question i think ,cant be anwered unless you can teach a snake to talk ..i struggle with it myself, especially when i see them trying to get out and rubbing noses on their 'cages'especially the more intelligent animals,ie. monitors 
baz :roll:


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> But surely the wild is the natural environment? they have survived for thousands of years quite well? :lol:




this is my point.


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## Nagraj (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> But surely the wild is the natural environment? they have survived for thousands of years quite well? :lol:




So what. Mother nature is the cruellest of mistresses. She cares nothing for our sensitivities and leaves countless animals to die miserable, lingering, painful deaths. Isn't that so cruel that we should collect them all and keep safe from each other in captivity?

Remember, we are discussing "cruelty" here, not what is "natural".


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## cris (May 20, 2006)

Good question supertaipan i was once thinking of starting a similar thread but thought it wasnt worth all the flamming.

IMO it can be cruel to keep animals in captivity, if the animal suffers alot of stress from being contained then it is cruel. If the animals needs(mental, phisical and social) are properly looked after then it isnt cruel. 
What is required for this obviously varies alot between differant animals so im not going into that.

whether the animal is WC or CB is irrelevant IMO if the reptiles needs are met, obviously a WC animal may have differant needs.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

True but how can you ask a snake if its happy in a cage?


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## Nagraj (May 20, 2006)

Happy is an emotion that may not be relevant to apply to snakes.

Is it clean, well fed, watered etc. and are it's stress levels at a minimum? If so then it's probably not unduly cruel to keep under those conditions.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

I am not having a go at you guys who keep them , im just interested in your opinions, or rather put yourselves in the snakes place, then answer honestly?


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> True but how can you ask a snake if its happy in a cage?



OMG,
See my point now?
It dosn't matter what anyone elses opinion is, he just has to argue with it.

Look, it is cruel to keep snakes ok. We are all sadistic bar stools hence we choose satans beasts (serpents) to imprison to a life of torment & torture. Join the dark side supertaipan, or take a hike.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

OK then imagine being captured and kept in a 10 foot cage all of your life? would you be happy in that environment, and being fed frozen food every few weeks???


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Nope I wouldn't.
MOVE ON!


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Oh dropkick, must have hit a nerve hey loser?


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## Nagraj (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> I am not having a go at you guys who keep them , im just interested in your opinions, or rather put yourselves in the snakes place, then answer honestly?




This question cannot be adequately answered at this time.

If you open the door cage will the snake leave, almost certainly as it is instinctive for snake to roam. Will it be "happier"? That's much harder to answer.


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## serpenttongue (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> But surely the wild is the natural environment? they have survived for thousands of years quite well? :lol:



Yeah, THEY being the species. 

With any given species 100's or 1000's of individuals must get dispatched by predators in no kind fashion!! I know that this isnt cruelty for them, it's life. But still shows that it can be a harder life for them in the wild than in a small enclosure.


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

I haven't stated that it isn't cruel to keep snakes in captivity, just that it is less cruel than it is to keep dogs and birds. Before i stated this Supertaipan had stated or at least implied that it wasn't cruel to keep dogs but he thinks it may be cruel to keep snakes, therefore my reasons for my statements are justified and relevant.
Duga, you're dogs are undoubtably very happy with their lifestyle, though it is illegal for them to be not restricted. If dogs didn't wander then the RSPCA wouldn't need to impound dogs that had wandered. We also wouldn't have a huge problem with feral dogs in the great dividing ranges if they always hung around waiting for their owners. Some dogs have been bred to be ''lap dogs'' and they make very suitable captive animals, other dogs are bred to run and hunt, do they make suitable captives in a suburban environment? Perhaps suitable for you, yet the dog is living a restricted life in regards to what their instincts are craving. So i believe it is silly for people to think keeping a snake, in particular pythons which are not very active animals, is any crueler than keeping most other pets. Dogs may be domesticated, but what does that really mean? They have been selectively bred for a purpose, often that is hunting and yet most people do not take their dogs hunting. Some breeds are bred for fighting, they love a good scrap, yet we don't allow them to do this. We restrict their natural instincts. A python on the other hand is ''generally'' an ambush predator that will not go far if it doesn't need to, it will not travel far to thermoregulate if it doesn't need to, it is fairly simple to fulfill their instictive needs.


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Sorry champ, im a sadistic, cruel snake keeper. I dont have nerves


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## Dicco (May 20, 2006)

Why would you need to ask it to find out if it was 'happy'? I doubt Snakes would feel happiness at all, they are highly instinctive, and I doubt there would be any mental harm to the snake if all needs are met and really, would the snake care aboput being in captivity if all needs were met? Snakes move for life related reasons(finding food, seeking shelter etc) not for enjoyment. 

Keeping a snake in conditions where it is healthy and all needs are met is far from cruel, otherwise I would not keep them, the restrictions may cause a level of confusion, but I doubt it would be of any real mental harm. Snakes don't have fun being free in the wilderness, they don't have fun at all.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Parko said:


> I haven't stated that it isn't cruel to keep snakes in captivity, just that it is less cruel than it is to keep dogs and birds. Before i stated this Supertaipan had stated or at least implied that it wasn't cruel to keep dogs but he thinks it may be cruel to keep snakes, therefore my reasons for my statements are justified and relevant.
> Duga, you're dogs are undoubtably very happy with their lifestyle, though it is illegal for them to be not restricted. If dogs didn't wander then the RSPCA wouldn't need to impound dogs that had wandered. We also wouldn't have a huge problem with feral dogs in the great dividing ranges if they always hung around waiting for their owners. Some dogs have been bred to be ''lap dogs'' and they make very suitable captive animals, other dogs are bred to run and hunt, do they make suitable captives in a suburban environment? Perhaps suitable for you, yet the dog is living a restricted life in regards to what their instincts are craving. So i believe it is silly for people to think keeping a snake, in particular pythons which are not very active animals, is any crueler than keeping most other pets. Dogs may be domesticated, but what does that really mean? They have been selectively bred for a purpose, often that is hunting and yet most people do not take their dogs hunting. Some breeds are bred for fighting, they love a good scrap, yet we don't allow them to do this. We restrict their natural instincts. A python on the other hand is ''generally'' an ambush predator that will not go far if it doesn't need to, it will not travel far to thermoregulate if it doesn't need to, it is fairly simple to fulfill their instictive needs.




i stated that if you kept a dog in a cage you would be reported to the rspca.


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## Dicco (May 20, 2006)

A dog doesn't need to be in a cage to be restricted.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

No but a snake has no choice, look this is getting nowhere fast, i was merely asking the question, nobody who has a pet snake would think they are being cruel obviously, but from the snakes point of view the question has to be asked.


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan you stated that it's different for dogs because they are kept in yards, go and check your own comments. If you have decided it is cruel to keep snakes and wont listen to evidence on the contrary than why are you still here?


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## serpenttongue (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> OK then imagine being captured and kept in a 10 foot cage all of your life? would you be happy in that environment, and being fed frozen food every few weeks???



Captured??? But you would be purchasing a captive bred specimen that has never seen the wild, it has gone straight into a tub after hatching, to be moved into a larger container/enclosure as it grows and doesnt know any other way. 

That is life as it knows it!! So what part of it's life is cruel, when it has no idea of the wild life it could have led?

By the way Supertaipan, i'm not giving you a hard time over this, i'm trying to talk you into getting a snake!! :wink:


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

most dogs are taken outside for a walk?


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Look im not having a go at you guys, im just interested genuinely, im not having a go at you guys, you obviously do a good job with your pets.


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> OK then imagine being captured and kept in a 10 foot cage all of your life? would you be happy in that environment, and being fed frozen food every few weeks???



Imagine being born with no arms or legs! Snakes are cruel, they have babies, none of which have a chance of having hands or feet, not even arms! Heartless monsters they are, but they can't help it... coming into the existence without limbs makes them angry and bitter, this is why they feel the need to have babies of their own, as a form of revenge on their parents... snakes never meet their parents you see, so the only way they can get their revenge is along the lines of "Mum, dad, you two are so cruel, I hate you... I can't get my revenge directly, but I'll make sure you have grandchildren who suffer... by living a life as a mute limbless creature... bwahahaha". This is probably the reason snakes are sad. Yes, all snakes. Have you ever seen a snake smile? No, you haven't, that's not because they can't, it's because none of them have ever wanted to, and that's because they don't have arms or legs... and maybe a little bit because they can't talk. How would you like it if you were suddenly unable to talk? You wouldn't be happy, would you, would you? Does anyone here feed their animals rats or mice? How would you like to eat raw rats and mice? You wouldn't, would you? You're being cruel to these poor creatures which have no will to smile, because they know they are unable to walk and they are mute. They're not even very smart, the can't use telephones, every one of them I've tried to enrol at the local primary school has failed the entrance test, and then to add insult to injury, we feed them raw rodents, while we happily tuck into our lamb chops in mint sauce. Shame shame shame. Since it is so horrible being a snake (you know, being unable to walk, talk, enrol in school, vote, become an Australian citizen, among other things), it is actually very cruel to allow snakes to live. The old saying "the only good snake is a dead snake" actually came from people who loved snakes and only wanted what is best for them; we are the true villains, trying to ensure their continued existence. Shame shame shame.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :lol: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :roll: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :roll: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

serpenttongue said:


> Supertaipan said:
> 
> 
> > OK then imagine being captured and kept in a 10 foot cage all of your life? would you be happy in that environment, and being fed frozen food every few weeks???
> ...


Well said!


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

If you want to take your snake out for a slither you can mate, and by the way ''most'' dogs are not nearly walked near enough for what they would want if they were kept in prime physical condition.


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## Magpie (May 20, 2006)

Smiling snake


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## newtosnakes (May 20, 2006)

Happily sitting here eating popcorn watching this "discussion" go round and round in circles. Supertaipan, you have asked your questions and now have over 80 responses in this thread. Though you may have begun with a valid question your refusal to accept others opinions has relegated this thread to pointless now. I suggest you make up your own mind and act accordingly.


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

Magpie, stop feeding that snake hallucinogens, it thinks it has arms and legs. Sure, it's happy now, but wait until the drugs wear off, it will be more sad than ever


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

LMAO Sdaji :lol: I 've gotta go now, i'm taking my snake to the pub for a beer.


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

Well if all you want is a genuine answer, stop arguing & listen to reason.

*In laymens terms:*
It is cruel to an extent to take a wild snake & keep it in an enclosure. Captive bred animals have never experienced the wild so have no problems with captivity as they dont need to adjust. If all their needs are met, then there is no reason to assume it is cruel as it would have everything it needs.


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## Dicco (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan, as has been said numerous times, the snake doesn't have a point of view, and can't be unhappy, it's been explained quite clearly numerous times, if kept well, then there is nothing for them to be 'unhappy' about.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> Well if all you want is a genuine answer, stop arguing & listen to reason.
> 
> *In laymens terms:*
> It is cruel to an extent to take a wild snake & keep it in an enclosure. Captive bred animals have never experienced the wild so have no problems with captivity as they dont need to adjust. If all their needs are met, then there is no reason to assume it is cruel as it would have everything it needs.



so in order for it to be accustomed to been kept in a cage, somewhere along the line it must have been taken from the wild?


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

If I was a snake, I know I'd much rather hatch in captivity than the wild. In the wild, I'd have (literally) about a 99% chance of dying in my first few months. Even if I beat the odds and made it to maturity, every day would be a challenge, and at any time I might be eaten by a predator. I'd have to endure painful climatic conditions, go through periods of starvation, probably become parasitised by internal parasites, which might kill me, be parasitised by ticks (depending on species), I'd have to eat live food at almost every meal (or scavenge rotting carrion) and consequently, I'd be covered in scars - each of which were obtained painfully, some of which might leave me in pain and unable to hunt or otherwise function normally for weeks or months and may result in life threatening infection... etc etc etc etc

In captivity, I'd have about a 90% chance of living to maturity, I'd never freeze, I'd never be exposed to a predator, I'd probably not get parasitised and if I did the problem would be taken care of, I'd never go hungry, I'd be nursed into old age and cared for until well after the age I could no longer survive in the wild. If I had an owner who wanted me to breed, I'd have far more babies than I would in the wild and instead of almost all of them dying, almost all would live.


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 20, 2006)

No you purchase captive bred reptiles from parents that were kept & bred in captivity.

Don't bother going with the whole "oh but originally they came from the wild". Its an argument with no winning side.


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## SnakeWrangler (May 20, 2006)

To me, this thread is stupid. Coming to a place that is totally dedicated to keeping reptiles in captivity, then asking the people who do so if they thinks it cruel is just stupid, I'm sorry but this is how I see it.

If you think keeping reptiles is cruel but do it anyway, well that says it all. But if you don't think it's cruel, go and buy another one, you probably don't have large enough collection anyway...

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> If I was a snake, I know I'd much rather hatch in captivity than the wild. In the wild, I'd have (literally) about a 99% chance of dying in my first few months. Even if I beat the odds and made it to maturity, every day would be a challenge, and at any time I might be eaten by a predator. I'd have to endure painful climatic conditions, go through periods of starvation, probably become parasitised by internal parasites, which might kill me, be parasitised by ticks (depending on species), I'd have to eat live food at almost every meal (or scavenge rotting carrion) and consequently, I'd be covered in scars - each of which were obtained painfully, some of which might leave me in pain and unable to hunt or otherwise function normally for weeks or months and may result in life threatening infection... etc etc etc etc
> 
> In captivity, I'd have about a 90% chance of living to maturity, I'd never freeze, I'd never be exposed to a predator, I'd probably not get parasitised and if I did the problem would be taken care of, I'd never go hungry, I'd be nursed into old age and cared for until well after the age I could no longer survive in the wild. If I had an owner who wanted me to breed, I'd have far more babies than I would in the wild and instead of almost all of them dying, almost all would live.



So you are saying snakes are born to be kept in captivity? no my friend you are wrong, they have survived for thousands of years in the wild doing just fine thankyou.


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## Nephrurus (May 20, 2006)

> In captivity, I'd have about a 90% chance of living to maturity, I'd never freeze, I'd never be exposed to a predator, I'd probably not get parasitised and if I did the problem would be taken care of, I'd never go hungry, I'd be nursed into old age and cared for until well after the age I could no longer survive in the wild. If I had an owner who wanted me to breed, I'd have far more babies than I would in the wild and instead of almost all of them dying, almost all would live



Sounds awfully boring. I wonder how much stimulus you'd get living in a draw system. Even a python living in a log for 2/3 of a year has different smells and temperatures for it to react to. In most captive systems, snakes are little more than little scaly battery hens. 

-H


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

"Supertaipan", they've survived in the wild for a great deal of time, yes, but they're doing even better in captivity, that's undeniable at least in terms of health, survival and reproduction. The concept of 'happiness' is elusive and we can't measure it in snakes, but I believe they're 'happier' in captivity.

Henry: If you're intelligent as a human, I agree, you'd be bored silly, but a snake is a very different animal from a human. Snakes are designed by evolution to sit around doing nothing for months on end, and a lot of their natural activities are only carried out by necessity; they certainly don't need recreation or social interaction in the same way people do. There is certainly a limit and in some cases, snakes are kept, as you say, as scaly battery hens, which is arguably cruel. I'm not so sure that snakes appreciate different smells etc. When people take their snakes outside, they often say they 'turn wild', this is often misinterpreted as the snake really enjoying itself, somehow realising it's outside, somehow 'closer to nature and as a response, 'comes alive', but what is actually usually going on, is the snake is terrified out of its mind, which is why it frantically smells everything, becomes hyper alert, rapidly moves around (looking for cover etc) and becomes prone to biting (being out in the open in an unfamiliar environment, it expects it's about to be eaten). As I said earlier, they can't talk and are very bitter creatures, so won't be willing or able to share their thoughts on the matter and we'll probably have to continue speculating, in discussions started by people like 'supertaipan' who are looking for fights


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## cris (May 20, 2006)

Why do ppl assume snakes dont experience any type of happiness or pleasure?
Has it been proven through neurological studies?
I will admit i have no specific knoledge on this subject but i would suspect that a snakes behavior would be somehow motivated by sometype of fun, pleasure or satisfaction it gets from doing such an activity, otherwise it simply would sit still and die and never breed wouldnt it?

we have already seen conclusive evidence from magpie that snakes can be happy and do smile any evidence to prove they dont?


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## krusty (May 20, 2006)

....NO.......imo.


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## ari (May 20, 2006)

I tend to look at it this way, on the positive side. A snake, bird etc etc that has been captive bred most likely wouldnt know of another life, so it is content in its surroundings. I feel if something is kept in an enclosure then it has to be a reasonable size to suit the size of the specimen - this incorporated with good management & husbandry should show an impact whether it be by growth or breeding. Any species that is breeding in captivity must be content with in its surroundings.

Besides I believe this question really should be directed at any animal or reptiles and not just snakes.

Something to think about though is "I wonder how many species of animals wouldnt be with us today if it wasnt for captive keeping & breeding" I think you will find that captive breeding & keeping has saved many a species from extinction over the past few 100 years.


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## steve6610 (May 20, 2006)

in my opinion it's so simple, if your happy, you eat, you breed, you live, 

the answer to your question is so simple, IF ANYBODY THINKS IT'S CRUEL, THEN DON'T OWN ANY, how easier is it then that, i've seen a few snake owners comment here that they think it's cruel, well then let them go into the big kind world and go have a good sleep, 

and super you should stick to keeping dollies and teddy bears , from some of your comments you should keep to stuffed animals only, 

cheers,
steve.............


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## Nephrurus (May 20, 2006)

> If you're intelligent as a human, I agree, you'd be bored silly, but a snake is a very different animal from a human. Snakes are designed by evolution to sit around doing nothing for months on end, and a lot of their natural activities are only carried out by necessity; they certainly don't need recreation or social interaction in the same way people do. There is certainly a limit and in some cases, snakes are kept, as you say, as scaly battery hens, which is arguably cruel. I'm not so sure that snakes appreciate different smells etc. When people take their snakes outside, they often say they 'turn wild', this is often misinterpreted as the snake really enjoying itself, somehow realising it's outside, somehow 'closer to nature and as a response, 'comes alive', but what is actually usually going on, is the snake is terrified out of its mind, which is why it frantically smells everything, becomes hyper alert, rapidly moves around (looking for cover etc) and becomes prone to biting (being out in the open in an unfamiliar environment, it expects it's about to be eaten). As I said earlier, they can't talk and are very bitter creatures, so won't be willing or able to share their thoughts on the matter and we'll probably have to continue speculating, in discussions started by people like 'supertaipan' who are looking for fights



Snakes are very primitive animals, and i agree they probably don't have a huge mental capacity, and i'd even go so far as to say they probably don't have a wide range of emotions . That said, captive snakes don't have the opportunity to be uncomfortable in captivity in that the average snake sits at optimum temperature and is fed regularly. Although there is no evidence to support it i feel experiencing cold, hunger and feeding on different prey types is gong to stimulate different synapses in their tiny brains and make for a more stimulated snake. Although snakes are opportunist feeders and will eat whenever they can, hunger is probably a good thing as it allows the snakes physiological processes to work properly. When hungry my maculosa get very active, the increase in activity might be good for them, i'm not sure. If you haven't noticed, none of this is hard evidence... it's all my opinion!
I think the snake will end up being a healthy snake regardless but it's more about what the keeper is prepared to provide for the animals in their care. 
Put simply, some people are happy keeping a living creature for it's entire existance in a dark 60 x 30 x 15cm box with compressed newspaper pellets for substrate, some people are'nt! 

-H


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## ari (May 20, 2006)

P.S. Isn't this a Reptile Forum anyway?


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

Nephrurus said:


> Snakes are very primitive animals, and i agree they probably don't have a huge mental capacity, and i'd even go so far as to say they probably don't have a wide range of emotions . That said, captive snakes don't have the opportunity to be uncomfortable in captivity in that the average snake sits at optimum temperature and is fed regularly. Although there is no evidence to support it i feel experiencing cold, hunger and feeding on different prey types is gong to stimulate different synapses in their tiny brains and make for a more stimulated snake. Although snakes are opportunist feeders and will eat whenever they can, hunger is probably a good thing as it allows the snakes physiological processes to work properly. When hungry my maculosa get very active, the increase in activity might be good for them, i'm not sure. If you haven't noticed, none of this is hard evidence... it's all my opinion!
> I think the snake will end up being a healthy snake regardless but it's more about what the keeper is prepared to provide for the animals in their care.
> Put simply, some people are happy keeping a living creature for it's entire existance in a dark 60 x 30 x 15cm box with compressed newspaper pellets for substrate, some people are'nt!
> 
> -H



I agree to some extent that giving them a bit of hardship might be good for them, but I'm not really prepared to slice them up to simulate a predator's attack, overheat them to the point where they're close to dying (as would be experienced in situations where the population is too high and individuals are forced to shelter in suboptimal retreats), removing blood with a syringe and introducing toxins to simulate tick attacks, etc etc etc. In all seriousness, a mild version of some of these might actually be beneficial, as you suggest. I think it's definately good to force them to cool below their preferred body temperatures from time to time, especially during winter, and to avoid over feeding. I don't believe there is any problem associated with exclusively feeding one prey species; this is the norm in many natural situations anyway. I'm not happy keeping snakes in a box with pellet substrate, I prefer newspaper.

Cris: no one said they knew snakes didn't experience happiness or emotion. You can't prove this either way, but to assume that without it they'd just sit there and do nothing is absurd. Even bacteria move about, feed and reproduce.... U f'tard.


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## Supertaipan (May 20, 2006)

You all sound to me like you are trying to justify your own selfish reasons for keeping your snakes in less than ideal conditions, to say snakes in captivity are better off than those in the wild is pure madness, otherwise why were snakes created??


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## Dicco (May 20, 2006)

Sounds to me like you have no idea what your talking about and aren't even paying attention to the answers your getting because your too stubborn to accept different points of view  

I keep my snakes in ideal conditions, much more ideal then some of the severly damaged environments that exsist because of people.

Snakes weren't just created, they evolved because there was a neiche available and they were successful


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## Sdaji (May 20, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> You all sound to me like you are trying to justify your own selfish reasons for keeping your snakes in less than ideal conditions, to say snakes in captivity are better off than those in the wild is pure madness, otherwise why were snakes created??



God created them to temp us to be evil. 

God also said they are supposed to bruise our heels and we are to bruise their heads. Perhaps being cruel to them makes them unhappy, this is, in an abstract way of thinking, bruising their heads, so it's really just god's will.

Yes, sarcasm, etc etc.

You're either just here to get into fights, or you are very naive. Go out and look at some wild snakes and see how happy they are. When you see something which is covered in scars and ticks, is emaciated and full of worms, is terrified of anything which moves, it's difficult to call it happy. Look at 100 or so wild snakes and you'll see quite that a large percentage are like this, look at 100 captives and you'll clearly see they are on average, much, much healthier and I assume/guess/believe/have the option that they are much happier.


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

if you think it's wrong or cruel or anything like that don't do it other wise who cares...im thinking at least 60% of the ppl on this site keep snakes and if they think it's wrong maybe they shouldn't be keeping them
as long as your doing right by the snake then go ahead keep what ya want (and allowed)


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## newtosnakes (May 20, 2006)

supertaipan - you have made your position blatantly obvious, you were not asking a question, you were attempting to criticise and belittle members of this REPTILE forum into accepting your opinions on cruelty inflicted on snakes being kept in captivity.
Accept your own opinion, don't buy a snake and force it to live a life of misery, inform the moderators of this forum that you wish for your membership of APS to be deleted and move on.


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## kwaka_80 (May 20, 2006)

snakes only bite in defence, if you had a snake you wouold know that even the bitiest snake can be held if it doesnt feel threatend... its not retaliating to being lock up in the cage, i doubt snakes hold grudges


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## Ramsayi (May 20, 2006)

mmmmmmmmmm Troll food


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Well i just got back from the pub with my python, we had a great time, though he lost me a bit of money playing dbl's at pool, he then got us thrown out by the bouncers too because he insisted on flicking his tongue at the bar lady. But that's alright cause i really want him to enjoy everything in life that i do, tomorrow we are going to a rock concert which i reckon he'll love, though he is a little tone deaf.


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

yeah im taking mine to footy with me tommorrow gunna ask coach if he can get a game!


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Snow i am sure your coach will let your snake play footy, it'd be cruel not to let him play just cause he can't catch the ball without puncturing it.


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

true true...he'll be a good backman! no-one will get the ball off of him!ill tell ya how he goes at the game!


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Geez mate i might even bring all my snakes to watch the game, it'll be a real treat for them. Afterwards we can all have a few drinks at the footy club, my snakes all love a good booze up.


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## cris (May 20, 2006)

> Cris: no one said they knew snakes didn't experience happiness or emotion. You can't prove this either way, but to assume that without it they'd just sit there and do nothing is absurd. Even bacteria move about, feed and reproduce.... U f'tard.


wow chill out dude, ppl have said that snakes cant be happy or unhappy(tho not said directly in this thread).
I was actually wondering if someone knew, i said what i think might be the case and Im a f'tard

Humans have various chemicals and hormones that are produced to motivate our behaviour, i cant see why it isnt possible to find out if snakes have similar type of motivation.

If there is anyone who knows of any relevant information i would like to know of it, but if u just want to call me a f'tard and add nothing keep it to yourself.


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

Pitty your in NSW the snakes would love to met up with all the boys! Monty likes nothing better than a scotch wishkey (except his mice)(im not allowed to drink but it'd be cruel not to let him!)


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

speaking of being cruel i just fed my warm childreni a nice mouse like every week and now she's back in her oversized warm enclosure....im so cruel


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## newtosnakes (May 20, 2006)

what is a f'tard? that's what i want to know...


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

newtosnakes, I think it is a french pastry


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## newtosnakes (May 20, 2006)

right, thanks parko. in that case - i will have 2. :lol:


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

What about for your snakes? It'd be cruel to eat french pastries when all they have is yucky old frozen rats.


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

yeah true true i should have given her some of my dinner!i might next week ohh no i eat everyday shoud i feed her everyday? i'd be cruel not too?


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## Snow1369 (May 20, 2006)

yeah she'll have to eat all her greens or no desert


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## Kersten (May 20, 2006)

Parko stop, my stomach hurts :lol:


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## moosenoose (May 20, 2006)

waruikazi said:


> it would appear to me that you are trying to start an argument *or just trying to bump up your post count.*



OMG!!!! :shock: :shock: Who'd do such a thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Oh i'm sorry Kersten, i find when my snakes have upset tummies a nice cup of tea with some honey in it helps them.


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## Kersten (May 20, 2006)

Camomile?? Mine are vodka drinkers :wink:


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## Sdaji (May 21, 2006)

I prefer croissants, at least I think I do. Uf'tards don't sound very nice. Does anyone know of a bakery which makes them?


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## Scale_Addiction (May 21, 2006)

i couldn't be bothered reading through ten pages to get up to speed on this thread, so i'll just throw in my two cents and hopefully it won't have been covered yet.

captive animals receive:

Heating
Food 
Hygiene
Parasite removal
Medical
Water

all in perfect supply. i don't think they are complaining somehow. i think the only cruelty falls into the category of how well they are kept in captivity.


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## Scale_Addiction (May 21, 2006)

i rarely lash out anymore, but anyone who thinks that a captive snake is better off in the wild is an idiot.


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## FAY (May 21, 2006)

Snakes would have to be the first animal to go down hill in a captive environment if the were not happy. Stress would set in....then all the side affects would quickly follow...canker, etc...then very quickly a dead snake.

Unless you were as thick as two planks....you would have a pretty good idea if your snake wasn't happy!!


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## Greebo (May 21, 2006)

How can you compare reptiles to humans? ie.Asking people how would they like to spend their life in a cage? You are basing your argument on an emotional level by comparing snakes to humans yet you dismiss peoples comparisons with birds,cats,dogs etc. In doing so you have undermined your own position to the extent that you no longer even have a point. As I read through your posts, there is very little substance to your argument at all just a lot of emotion.

Is it cruel to keep snakes in captivity? You might as well ask is it cruel to eat meat?Or why not take it even further, is it cruel for us to even exist at the expense of other animals and plant life?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 21, 2006)

> what is a f'tard? that's what i want to know...


me to newtosnakes, some obscure scientific word, like sdaji
just got in and am now having a great peruse through what i think was a fun night, 
ps . there is one member,me, and one lurker.on line.havnt seen that before


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## Kersten (May 21, 2006)

> ps . there is one member,me, and one lurker.on line.havnt seen that before


A plague of hangovers perhaps????


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## krusty (May 21, 2006)

is this crazy debate still going.


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## inthegrass (May 21, 2006)

i just asked my snakes if they are happy and they all said"yes".
they did, really!!!


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## newtosnakes (May 21, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> I prefer croissants, at least I think I do. Uf'tards don't sound very nice. Does anyone know of a bakery which makes them?



Sdaji - we all know that croissants have far too high fat contect, feeding them to my snakes would certainly just be cruelty at its worst.... how could you even consider such a thing...


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## peterescue (May 21, 2006)

no


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## PilbaraPythons (May 21, 2006)

汐止公司: 台北縣汐止市福德路巷號樓絃豐實業股份有限公司

台北市114內湖區康寧路 and also 市福德路巷


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## Pandora (May 21, 2006)

This question is very valid and like others I have asked myself this on occassion. Many here have given their opinions and although not asked I shall give mine ...... 

The only person here worthy of answering this question is YOU. So I ask you Super taipan what is your opinion .....IS it cruel to keep a snake in captivity? 

Whatever the outcome of your answer is ...............there is many a wonderful person here that can help aid you with questions or assistance regarding all concievable Queries you may have based on their experience............ but only one that needs to find comfort with your decision.


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## mciver (May 21, 2006)

Did anyone notice how quiet this thread went after "Supertaipan" went to bed sometime after 9:43 last night?
Perhaps now would be a good time for the moderators to lock it and then someone could do a spread sheet or the like detailing the fors and againsts including all the things like emotion, hapiness, fear, walkies etc and then publish the results.
Just a thought.

Best regards
Paul


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## Supertaipan (May 21, 2006)

I did not go to bed at 9.45, i was just bored with the thread, maybe you are right i should not have asked the question! Dont hate me for having an opinion though. Ithink that you are right, snakes are happy being kept as long as they are well looked after. end of story from my point of view.


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## Kersten (May 21, 2006)

:shock:


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 21, 2006)

Yayyyyy we have a winner!
Ding ding ding, what do we have for em Johnny...


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## PimmsPythons (May 21, 2006)

a famous aussie zoo owner once said,if captive animals are willing to breed and bring up their young in captivity then they are comfortable in their surroundings and situation


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## Supertaipan (May 21, 2006)

I agree, i was just looking at my set up, empty enclosure and just had that thought was it fair? anyway im off to look at some central aussie pythons today, I actually held the father today and it was amazing beautiful snake.


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## PilbaraPythons (May 21, 2006)

Supertaipan 
Please keep in mind when comparing snakes to many other animals in cages, the fact that snakes are generally cryptozoic. I am not buying into the cruelty argument either way, but this is something that definitely makes them more suitable in captivity than other animals. I have had heaps of first hand experience on caging wild snakes in large numbers and have many examples of pythons feeding and doing better in small tubs as opposed to large wooden bank type caging that offer far more space to roam.


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## Supertaipan (May 21, 2006)

Dont worry my snake will have the run of the house!


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## Sdaji (May 21, 2006)

newtosnakes said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > I prefer croissants, at least I think I do. Uf'tards don't sound very nice. Does anyone know of a bakery which makes them?
> ...



Sorry for my poor choice of words. I meant that I personally prefer to ingest croissants. I'd like to find a source of Uf'tards to feed my snakes though, although I'd have to research their constituents first. Having said that, what percentage fat is a typical croissant? I'd have thought that at least some would be lower in fat than rats (well, sure, not the traditional 'half butter' ones).


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## SnakeWrangler (May 21, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> Ithink that you are right, snakes are happy being kept as long as they are well looked after. end of story from my point of view.


First off, I think you'll find that most people here will not hate you for having an opinion, however I am still completely gobsmacked after reading this post of yours... :shock:

Go buy yourself a snake and have fun with it, both you and the snake will be better for it.

Cheers.


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## Dave82 (May 21, 2006)

Didn't this topic cop a fair response!


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## Oliver (May 21, 2006)

Wow, I have to be honest I only read half the posts. 

If you consider keeping reptiles is cruel then you are probably not doing it right. We are all pretty intelligent and can tell if what we are doing is morally ok or not. 

Super.. I would consider not letting you snake always having the run of the house (there are plenty of household objects unsafe for a reptile to be in contact with. Even just the type cleaner you may use to wipe your floor. For example.)


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## peterescue (May 21, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> Dont worry my snake will have the run of the house!



That is not a good idea at all.


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

Yeah Pete i was going to say the same thing but in realising that he had made this comment in response to pilbarapythons advice about the advantages of keeping reptiles in smaller enclosures i thought bloody hell this kid is thick as a brick so why bother.


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## JandC_Reptiles (May 21, 2006)

Well I sure am glad we changed this guys mind.
I look forward to hundreds of questions in the future from this new keeper.


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> Well I sure am glad we changed this guys mind.
> I look forward to hundreds of questions in the future from this new keeper.



Yeah me too, there are bound to be some rippers, questions like ''why can't i find my snake?'' or '' why has my snake caught pneumonia?'' or ''why wont my snake slough correctly?'' or ''why is my snake scared to buggery?'' or ''why did my snake lash out and bite my little sister on the ear when she was running around the lounge room?'' or ''why is my snake choking on the Kentucky fried chicken i fed it?''


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## Supertaipan (May 21, 2006)

no mate, i was thinking more of how come it will eat pizza but wont eat maccas?


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## wombat100 (May 21, 2006)

I agree with Supertaipan, would you like to buy my snakes? lol


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## steve6610 (May 21, 2006)

hi wombat,
i'm interested, i only have about 50 that i'm being cruel to, so some more would be good, but i really think as i'm helping ease your mind they should be free, pmsl........


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## wombat100 (May 21, 2006)

ok steve6610, think I'll just let them go. lol


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## steve6610 (May 21, 2006)

pmsl.......

you can't do that, it's illegal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mciver (May 21, 2006)

*Goodbye, goodnight & farewell*

This thread just can't still be alive. Can it?

Consider this, "What if Noah asked the same question (is it cruel to keep a &lt; insert name of animal here >) in captivity?) Before he boxed up all the creatures, great and small, of the earth for their Red Sea cruise (watch all the comments now regarding the actual itinerary of the cruise). OK end of funny comments.

Seriously, you have to admire Supertaipan’s endurance for hanging in there for the long haul in what became a bit of a super post. Yes, one doesn’t have to be Einstein to know that he/she is an expert stousher, and probably enjoyed the arguments as well as the debate itself, however for all that he/she didn’t walk away.

There was an upside to all this debate or argument what ever you want to call it though. For many of us, and in particular, newcomers, a vast outpouring of useful information became available on the subject in a very short period of time. Furthermore the many sides of the debate were there for anyone to see and form their own opinions. There are some very knowledgeable people on this site, this thread, albeit a bit inflammatory, got those people talking and posting their views, their experiences and their personal feelings on the subject. I think very few of us haven’t considered this question at one time or another either.

I think that what followed was worth more than a dozen books on the subject could have delivered. The comments, observations and experiences of dozens of seasoned herpers came to light in an instant, all of it in layman’s terms. The price? You just had to put up with a bit of sarcasm and wanker or two. It wasn’t hard to pick the standouts.

I will go on record as saying I learnt a lot about the subject of “Wild vs. Captive” issue and then some. I’ll also go on record as being a “What’s in it for the snake?” person. Recently I made a conscious and well thought out decision to return to reptile (snake) keeping after a lengthy sabbatical. My overriding concern in that time was “How can I make my rep/s as happy as reps can be expected to be. Although I had made up my mind to return to herpetology and had my own views on this matter, this thread certainly went a long way towards convincing me that there is little to feel guilty about being a recreational reptile keeper.

Anyway that’s it from me on the subject hopefully a lot of members got something from all this as it sure took up a fair bit of forum time. It was left of field, but hey, what can you say, it hit the spot.

Best regards
Paul


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## Supertaipan (May 21, 2006)

well said mate.


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## Scale_Addiction (May 21, 2006)

> well said mate



don't flatter yourself... your still a spoon.


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## AGAMIDAE (May 21, 2006)

I have seen some very cruel keeper...so yeah it can be cruel.......


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## pugsly (May 21, 2006)

Joughin is that you!!?


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## moosenoose (May 21, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> You are avoiding the issue-how would you like to be caged for life??????????????



My God I can't believe this post is still going! :lol: God, you people would argue over .....umm....anything! :lol: 

If you were to use this example as a rough comparison, and head off into the deepest darkest depths of the amazon and grab out a tribesperson and stick him into what we refer to as "civilization" it would be none-the-less considered, cruel! No? Yet we naturally see how we live, and where we live, as just part & parcel of our daily lives. An interesting spin sure...but it makes you think :wink: 8)


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## Snow1369 (May 22, 2006)

if you think it's cruel let yours go see what happens...that would be cruel!


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## Supertaipan (May 22, 2006)

ok is it fair to take a snake that has lived all its life in the wild and keep it in captivity?


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## Kersten (May 22, 2006)

But....the majority of captive snakes are not wild caught :shock: Yes, there are some snakes taken from the wild who spend the rest of their days in captivity, but they're in the minority.


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## serpenttongue (May 22, 2006)

Supertaipan said:


> ok is it fair to take a snake that has lived all its life in the wild and keep it in captivity?



Perhaps not fair, but i wouldn't say it's cruel. What do you do if a species of snake is on the decline? 

Take the Rough Scaled pythons... It has been mentioned in articles that because they are in such a restricted area that they could possibly be wiped out in the future and may already be on the decline. Should we just sit back and let that happen, or was it better that some were collected for breeding in captivity so the species can be saved...even though some may consider it to be cruel?


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## Supertaipan (May 22, 2006)

no mate i meant a species that is plentiful.


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## spiderman (May 22, 2006)

from what i hear most wild reptiles are a lot more cranky than the captive ones. Captive bred ones tend to live longer. Snakes also dont have the intelligence to get bored with their surroundings.


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## Kersten (May 22, 2006)

Did you know that if you whack your head repeatedly against a brick wall as hard as you can and then stop, the relief is so intense that (for a while at least) you forget all about the fact that you're bleeding profusley and in a hell of a lot of pain.


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## Parko (May 22, 2006)

Bloody hell Kersten thanks a lot for that advice, that was the stupidest thing i've ever done, now who is going to clean all this blood up?


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## Kersten (May 22, 2006)

But I was right, wasn't I??


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## Parko (May 22, 2006)

I'm not sure, i'll try again.


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## Kersten (May 22, 2006)

Put some paper towel down first :wink:


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## AntaresiaLady (May 24, 2006)

Let's free all the horses being ridden...they're not naturally ridden in the wild. (Think of how many structures that would have never been built, places that would have never been explored)
Let's send all dogs and cats back to where they originated from (as I for one, sure don't want them to end up in the Aussie bush) Think about all the blind people who use dogs every day to help them get around...how much cats and dogs help in the therapy of sick people, and in the therapy for disabled/mentally challenged/incapacitated people....
Lets send all foreign birds back to their country of origin.
Lets send all the rats, mice and other rodents non native to Australia back to the countries they originated from...

I could go on and on...but there's no point...y'all get what I'm saying. 

And for the record...my snake..whom I've owned since February 11th this year (2006 for those playing the home game) has not bitten, or struck out at us at all. She doesn't even 'strike' at her food!!! She will smell it, open her mouth if she wants it, and we are expected to place it in her open mouth.... 

Snakes can strike when stressed, or if they associate the enclosure opening with food...there are probably a few others, but I'm getting tired so I can't be bothered. I reckon a lovely warm place, no rain, no cold wind, regular food, and a cosy hidey hole would be heavenly to a snake. (I'll leave out the mating comment I was going to post- another spankable offence LOL!)


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