# Hybrid on Herptrader



## junglepython2 (Oct 8, 2007)

What do people think of the Stephens Banded x Broad-headed snake on Herptrader?

Add no. 728-101


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## Colin (Oct 8, 2007)

Personally I don't like hybrids


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## krissy78 (Oct 8, 2007)

i can only find ads starting with 727


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

I would imagine those that dont like hybrids wont like it (duh)


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## Vixen (Oct 8, 2007)

It does look interesting though lol


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## Sdaji (Oct 8, 2007)

Haha, cute! "Never photographed before, picture of animal included" :lol:

Pretty bland cross, high price, testing the legal waters... interesting!


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## junglepython2 (Oct 8, 2007)

cris said:


> I would imagine those that dont like hybrids wont like it (duh)


 
This isn't a typical subspecies hybrid though, it's two different species which is rarely seen in Australia. While I don't personally like hybrids I thought it was interesting none the less.


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## junglepython2 (Oct 8, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> Haha, cute! "Never photographed before, picture of animal included" :lol:
> 
> Pretty bland cross, high price, testing the legal waters... interesting!


 
Haha I was thinking the same thing. What species code would it go under?


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> Haha, cute! "Never photographed before, picture of animal included" :lol:
> 
> Pretty bland cross, high price, testing the legal waters... interesting!



haha i noticed that too, but i thought it was legal to breed hybrids in NSW :?


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 8, 2007)

Sorry, accidentally read it as Stephens x Pale Headed.


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)




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## Sdaji (Oct 8, 2007)

cris said:


> haha i noticed that too, but i thought it was legal to breed hybrids in NSW :?



I thought it was illegal to intentionally breed them (as with everywhere else in Australia), but unlike most other states, if it accidentally happened, the animals could be held on permit (elsewhere, the animals are confiscated, destroyed, and the owners are sometimes penalised). In this case, the snake is being sold proudly at a high price. If nothing happens here, it'll mean that they're basically saying "It's okay to 'accidentally' hybridise whatever you want, go for it, make your Carpondros, Womets, etc etc, then charge what you like for it".

I may be wrong, perhaps this is already perfectly acceptable by the NSW NPWS.


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## bredli84 (Oct 8, 2007)

wasn't something similar to this featured in REptiles Australia?


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## junglepython2 (Oct 8, 2007)

bredli84 said:


> wasn't something similar to this featured in REptiles Australia?


 
Yes, I think that was a pale head x stephen's.


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## caustichumor (Oct 8, 2007)

I would be interested to see in what ways the venom has been altered! That would be a fun trip to the hospital, "so what species was the snake again?"


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## Sdaji (Oct 8, 2007)

Both species have very similar venom and both are treated with the same thing (Tiger Snake antivenene). The hybrid venom would be pretty much the same as either of the parental venoms. No big deal


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

caustichumor said:


> I would be interested to see in what ways the venom has been altered! That would be a fun trip to the hospital, "so what species was the snake again?"



I would imagine being the same genus it would make little differance. A mulga x brown snake would be a differant story(if that is at all possible to make).


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## BIG RYANO (Oct 8, 2007)

There's a pure BroadHead for sale on RDU right now. I know which one i'd rather buy.


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## MrBredli (Oct 8, 2007)

Whoever bred that thing ought to be shot. Hybridising an endangered species; what an absolute idiot.


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## beardy_boy99 (Oct 8, 2007)

caustichumor, i agree, wat do u reckon the bite/venom would be like. Are stephens venomous? i no broad headeds are, but beautiful looking snake, despite the fact it is a hybrid!


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## beardy_boy99 (Oct 8, 2007)

i no mr.bredli, less than 1000 left and turning 1 into a hybrid, the snake itself isnt a shocker but should not be as it is!!!!!!!


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## BIG RYANO (Oct 8, 2007)

It doesnt compare to a pure Stephens or Broady. It's pretty poor actually compared to the real things.


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## Australis (Oct 8, 2007)

Beardy_Boy99,

Its an Elapid, they are all venomous.


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## beardy_boy99 (Oct 8, 2007)

i no elapids r venomous, but honestly i have never heard of stephens, also wat the hell would a snake keeper be thinking keeping 2 diff. species elapids and breeding such a rare specimen?


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## Australis (Oct 8, 2007)

They are both species of _Hoplocephalus_.

I hope it doesnt sell for that price and tempt further breedings.

Although I guess this will inspire something................

More collecting of _H. bungaroides_, 
like any further inspiration was needeed.


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## Python_Princess87 (Oct 8, 2007)

Looks interesting but also looks heaps aggressive.


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## beardy_boy99 (Oct 8, 2007)

thanx australis, i just hope it doesnt sell or tempt further hybrid breeding in general, but im sure their will be 1 in the crowd cooking up some eggs somewhere.....


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## zulu (Oct 8, 2007)

*re Hybrid*

Bit sus,i know brian lazell has had a few pale headed x stephens for a while and they are written into the NPWS records,this one looks adult and havent heard about it,very ordinary looking.Looks like the same bloke has crossed diamonds and carpets also unless its someone else,a shame in my oppinion,wouldnt pay 2bob for either of them.


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## BIG RYANO (Oct 8, 2007)

The pure Broady on RDU has now been sold. I wonder if the mongrel will sell? You'd have to be mad to pay money for that, thats a givaway animal IMO.


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## Just_Joshin (Oct 8, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> Whoever bred that thing ought to be shot. Hybridising an endangered species; what an absolute idiot.


I couldn't agree more. Had you not posted this i would have said the exact same thing. You echo my thoughts exactly.


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## Spinipes (Oct 8, 2007)

the breeder should have all his reptiles taken off him for such a act of stupidity in crossing two endangered snakes. It makes me just as mad a when people kill snakes for cause they feel like it.


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## krusty (Oct 8, 2007)

i think its great, there should be more hybrids geting around..........lol


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## WombleHerp (Oct 8, 2007)

i cant find it :S anyone got a link?


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## caustichumor (Oct 8, 2007)

Now I don't know much about the snakes in the sydney area, but seeing as these snakes are compatable for breeding with each other, If their territories where to overlap in nature is there a possibility of there being natural cross bred intergrades of this specie in the wild?


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## Australis (Oct 8, 2007)

Stephens' Banded Snake _Hoplocephalus stephensii_ Isnt found in Sydney,
so i dont think any natural intergration would occur in the wild


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## MrBredli (Oct 8, 2007)

I doubt it, Broadheads have a very limited distribution around Sydney. I don't believe Paleheads or Stephens are found in any of these locations.


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## MrBredli (Oct 8, 2007)

Australis said:


> Stephens' Banded Snake _Hoplocephalus stephensii_ Isnt found in Sydney,
> so i dont think any natural intergration would occur in the wild


 
Yep, i don't think you'll find either much further south than Gosford.


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

caustichumor said:


> Now I don't know much about the snakes in the sydney area, but seeing as these snakes are compatable for breeding with each other, If their territories where to overlap in nature is there a possibility of there being natural cross bred intergrades of this specie in the wild?



I guess so, i asked if it was wild caught in a previous post before properly reading that it was "created" in jonnos post (that is now also removed due to confusion on his part). I then reomoved the question and replaced with a  i hope that makes sense :?

so is this thing man made or collected? if it came from the wild it could be a natural hybrid or integrade(going off distribution maps in cogger)


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## ozianimals (Oct 9, 2007)

While there are intergrade carpet/diamonds and people purposfully crossing jungles with diamonds and other breeds of carpet pureley for color variations. What would happen if a snake was offered that had an unusual pattern would you question the bloodlines or pay extra for an unusual snake such as a stimi with stripes down the body, must have been a weird looking snake. But to buy would cost so much more than normal.
Who ever thinks this is wrong I hope you keep your population paste to your self as you should only breed with a purebred [deleted] like yourselves as we do not want any [deleted] X [deleted]around or what would you call him/her, not human, as you have crossed genes from 2 different species...........................it works for all species of animals. I also hope you only spend thousands buying a dog as there are a lot of bitsas around and following your comments would make you a [deleted]for getting something that is not 100%, even though a bitsa dog is usually more loyal and smarter......


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## Adzo (Oct 9, 2007)

Bit early to be hitting the turps, mate.


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## MrBredli (Oct 9, 2007)

ozianimals said:


> While there are intergrade carpet/diamonds and people purposfully crossing jungles with diamonds and other breeds of carpet pureley for color variations. What would happen if a snake was offered that had an unusual pattern would you question the bloodlines or pay extra for an unusual snake such as a stimi with stripes down the body, must have been a weird looking snake. But to buy would cost so much more than normal.
> Who ever thinks this is wrong I hope you keep your population paste to your self as you should only breed with a purebred knob like yourselves as we do not want any knobXwan# around or what would you call him/her, not human, as you have crossed genes from 2 different species...........................it works for all species of animals. I also hope you only spend thousands buying a dog as there are a lot of bitsas around and following your comments would make you a cockhead for getting something that is not 100%, even though a bitsa dog is usually more loyal and smarter......


--

Firstly, congratulations for the dumbest post ever on APS; that was quite a feat.

Now, let me ask you a question, can your small mind grasp the concept of the word 'intergrade'? Intergrades are not the result of Brisbane Carpet Pythons mating with Diamond Pythons in the wild. They are simply a form of Carpet Python that intermediately looks like something in between a Diamond and a Brisbane Carpet; they are not hybrids.

As for people crossing Carpets and Jungles, they are just as stupid as you. But thankfully neither of those subspecies are endangered, still it is not good.

So am i right in guessing that you are the owner of that snake, or are someway associated with that person? In any case, my respect for you as a member of APS has just dropped a level. You're now at -1.


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## Just_Joshin (Oct 9, 2007)

ozianimals said:


> While there are intergrade carpet/diamonds and people purposfully crossing jungles with diamonds and other breeds of carpet pureley for color variations. What would happen if a snake was offered that had an unusual pattern would you question the bloodlines or pay extra for an unusual snake such as a stimi with stripes down the body, must have been a weird looking snake. But to buy would cost so much more than normal.
> Who ever thinks this is wrong I hope you keep your population paste to your self as you should only breed with a purebred knob like yourselves as we do not want any knobXwan# around or what would you call him/her, not human, as you have crossed genes from 2 different species...........................it works for all species of animals. I also hope you only spend thousands buying a dog as there are a lot of bitsas around and following your comments would make you a cockhead for getting something that is not 100%, even though a bitsa dog is usually more loyal and smarter......


All Dogs are the same species!


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## Hickson (Oct 9, 2007)

It seems a lot of people are getting very upset about this snake, and I really can't see why.

Firstly, there is nothing in the DEC that states that hybrids are illegal. 

Secondly, the snakes might be uncommon in the wild, but if anyone here thinks that the broadheads held in private hands will be used to repopulate the wild, then they're mistaken. 

Broadheads may be uncommon in captivity too, and this may have been a wasted breeding, but if the owner didn't have access to another Broadhead at the time, his animal may not have bred at all that year so the hobby is really no worse off. And it's not like the Broadhead bred once and will never breed again. The snake may have been bred for a research project, to look at the DNA or something like that.

And to cap it off, there's a very good chance that the individual, being a hybrid (not an intergrade), will be infertile. 

Statements along the lines that the person who bred the animal "should be shot" is, IMO, an over-reaction.



HIx


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## cris (Oct 9, 2007)

but what about the children :lol:


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## TrueBlue (Oct 9, 2007)

hahaha, they are asking 990 bucks to much for it.
Tell em hes dreaming.


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## MrBredli (Oct 9, 2007)

You're wrong Hix. The hobby is worse off for two reasons. The first is it is encouraging hybrids to be produced - $1000 for a mongrel?! And an ugly one at that! Secondly, if it is fertile it, it will no doubt, at some point in time, be bred back to a pure animal further muddying the lines of future generations. It is only a matter if time before Broadheaded Snakes become extinct in the wild, then all we'll have left are the ones in captivity. The way things are going, and with help from idiots like this, we'll be lucky to even have them (pure ones anyway)!


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## Hickson (Oct 9, 2007)

What children? If it's infertile, there won't be any 'children'.




MrBredli said:


> You're wrong Hix. The hobby is worse off for two reasons. The first is it is encouraging hybrids to be produced - $1000 for a mongrel?! And an ugly one at that! Secondly, if it is fertile it, it will no doubt, at some point in time, be bred back to a pure animal further muddying the lines of future generations. It is only a matter if time before Broadheaded Snakes become extinct in the wild, then all we'll have left are the ones in captivity. The way things are going, and with help from idiots like this, we'll be lucky to even have them (pure ones anyway)!


 
Points taken, however, hybrids between species are often very hard to accomplish (as the animals don't often recognise the other species as a mate, and if they do, the genetics doesn't always work). 

Secondly, if it is infertile, your second argument is non-existent. And there is a very good chance it will be infertile.

I agree, it's not something to be encouraged in the amatuer herper, but it doesn't warrant the vitriol I've seen in this thread.



Hix


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## MrBredli (Oct 9, 2007)

*If.*


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## Colin (Oct 9, 2007)

I wouldn't be surprised if the hybrid was fertile. There all Hoplocephalus. And as the Broad headed snake is listed as 'vunerable' I would have thought it would be illegal to hybridise it? 
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicspecies.pl?taxon_id=1182

http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicthreatenedlist.pl?wanted=fauna#REPTILES_VULNERABLE

Threatened species
Categories of threatened species
Threatened fauna and flora may be listed in any one of the following categories as defined in Section 179 of the EPBC Act:

Extinct; 
Extinct in the wild*; 
Critically endangered*; 
Endangered*; 
Vulnerable*; and 
Conservation dependent. 

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/threatened/recovery.html

I wouldn't think hybridising the Broad headed Snake (hoplocephalus bungaroides) would be in the best interests for any recovery plan, conservation or for the species future myself.


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## Hickson (Oct 9, 2007)

Recovery plans tend to use specimens of known localities, of individuals actually in a recovery plan. This one currently isn't in a recovery plan, so it's not a big deal at this point.



Hix


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## Colin (Oct 9, 2007)

Hix said:


> Recovery plans tend to use specimens of known localities, of individuals actually in a recovery plan. This one currently isn't in a recovery plan, so it's not a big deal at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix




thats maybe a matter of opinion  Do you agree that the Broad Headed snake is vunerable? 
Don't you agree that it's not in the best interests of the BHS to have people hybridising them? 

If the existing captive population became tainted by hybrids that would (imo) not assist any conservation or recovery efforts were they deemed necessary in the future. What if a hybrid was released or escaped and ended up tainting the wild population? Surely we have some responsibility to the species?


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## ozianimals (Oct 9, 2007)

womanator said:


> All Dogs are the same species!


 
And a snake is still a snake......................................
and these ones from what I have read are from the same family eg red cattle dog and blue cattle dog.

So what is different from crossbreeding a ****zu with a greatdane how would that be a purebred.........It's not. People do this all of the time, with different animals.

I have not studied dog genetics and therefore can not say that they are the same species but I know for a fact that their not the same breed.......there is a difference.........just like a diamond python and a coastal python are both carpets and both come under the species of SNAKE but they are different and in the wild interbreed at the edge of their locales, such as in Gosford you will find that there are a few intergrades.............


Mr bredli 

No It's not mine and I don't know who owns it.....I have not even seen the add......
All I am saying is that you get Bitsas in all animals it's not the species but the breed that is crossed and whether it is a dog, bird, cat, horse, rabbit or snake it will happen naturally and via human interaction. Just because you do not agree with it does not make it wrong..Where would we be without the mule a cross between a donkey and a horse definately not the same animals.......... I myself do not agree with it, but will not have a go at someone because they tried and was successful How do you think we ended up with so many different breeds of snake in the first place.....It's called evolution or genetic changes which could explain the different venoms within the snake population. But how would two types of snakes have similar venoms and the next snake totally different??????The blue and red cattle dog are mixtures of breeds and they were bred for a purpose, but they are a bitsa just like this snake. Australias only purebred dog is a Dingo yet they have been crossed into extinction as even in the wild there are very few wild pure dingos.......

Just to let you know I have paid and bought a cross coastal diamond that was a hatchie from wild caught crosses from before you needed a lic in NSW and they occur naturally. She is a great animal and I would not swap her for anything except cash if I was ready to sell her.


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## Australis (Oct 9, 2007)

And "Snake" is not a species. 


You can not just compare it to domestic dogs, its nothing alike.
Domestic dogs are all one species, with many different breeds.

And "Snake" is not a species, or even a genus. or.. or..

The two animals involved, both of the Genus _Hoplocephalus_, but different species.

H. bungaroides + H. stephensii = The hybrid advertised.


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 9, 2007)

ozianimals,

I think you are struggling to understand the difference between scientifically defined species, and breeds or morphs of a single species. Dogs (_Canis familiarlis_), horses (_Equus caballus_), humans (_Homo sapien_) etc are all the one species. You get many different colourations, breeds and morphs within these species. For instance, you get Rotweillers, Pugs, Poodles and Great Dane's in dogs - but they are still the same species. 

Interspecific hybridisation would be like crossing a goat with a cow, or a chicken with an eagle. In most cases, interspecific hybridisation is impossible, but in some cases it will work. Examples in Australian reptiles include _Liasis fuscus_ x _Morelia spilota_, _Morelia spilota_ x _Morelia amythestina_, _Pseudechis guttatus_ x _Pseudechis colletti_, _Hoplocephalus stephensi_ x _Hoplocephalus bitorquatus_, _Pogona vitticeps_ x _Pogona barbata_, _Tiliqua scincoides_ x _Tililqua nigroleuta_, all three common _Antaresia_ and possibly a wild occurance of _Aspidites melanocephalus_ x _Aspidites ramsayi_. I hope that clears up the difference.

With regards to conservation value of any animal held in private hands, they are virtually worthless with the exception of very few species like the Mary River Turtle.


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## cris (Oct 9, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> With regards to conservation value of any animal held in private hands, they are virtually worthless with the exception of very few species like the Mary River Turtle.



But any natural form local specific animals have conservation value regardless of if they can be released. A species kept in survival even if only living in a box, is still conserved.


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## cockney red (Oct 9, 2007)

*Groundhog Tuesday. Pass the razorblade someone.:|:|:|*


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## ozianimals (Oct 9, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> ozianimals,
> 
> I think you are struggling to understand the difference between scientifically defined species, and breeds or morphs of a single species. Dogs (_Canis familiarlis_), horses (_Equus caballus_), humans (_Homo sapien_) etc are all the one species. You get many different colourations, breeds and morphs within these species. For instance, you get Rotweillers, Pugs, Poodles and Great Dane's in dogs - but they are still the same species.
> 
> ...


 


This would explain the difference if you were using correct terminology as the snakes you are mentioning are subspecies of the species snake......Now correct me if I'm wrong but after a little reading on the net, a species is a group of genetic markers which would give us a base structure then we get sub species which is the difference between the different types of snakes then we have genis and so on. So with this reasoning snakes would be the species, elapids etc.would be the sub species and morelia would be the genis.
This is how I read all of the material on biology of species .


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## MrBredli (Oct 9, 2007)

Congratulations, you have out done yourself and smashed your previous record. The above post is now the official 'Dumbest Post Ever On APS'. :lol:


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## junglepython2 (Oct 9, 2007)

There are heaps of different species of snake. Subpecies is say jungle and diamond. But a carpet and water python are totally different species.

Dogs and snakes shouldn't be compared, but crossing a great dane with a ****zu is like crossing a banded jungle with a striped jungle. It is nothing at all like crossing two different species.


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## Hetty (Oct 9, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> Congratulations, you have out done yourself and smashed your previous record. The above post is now the official 'Dumbest Post Ever On APS'. :lol:



I'll say!

Gosh, go read some books or something ozianimals..


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## Just_Joshin (Oct 9, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> There are heaps of different species of snake. Subpecies is say jungle and diamond. But a carpet and water python are totally different species.
> 
> Dogs and snakes shouldn't be compared, but crossing a great dane with a ****zu is like crossing a banded jungle with a striped jungle. It is nothing at all like crossing two different species.


 
Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. That is the order that the animal kingdom runs in. "Snakes" are not a species, they are an *order *of animals of which different Families, Genus and species of Snakes exist. Genus and Species are the two we are all familiar with. _Aspidites, Morelia, Liasis _etc are all examples of Different Genus. _ramsayi, carinata, fuscus_ etc, are all examples of Species. 

The Genus always begins with a capital and the species always begins with a lower case. Together they would read like so: _Aspidites ramsayi, Morelia carinata, Liasis fuscus_. Below is a complete taxonic naming example for a water python first and then a shingle-back second. Appologise for any slight mistakes in spelling as this is going off the top of my head.

Water Python:

*Kindom*
Animalia

*Phylum*
Chordata

*Class*
Reptilia

*Order*
Squamata (snakes and lizards)

*suborder*
Serpentes (snakes)

*Family*
Biodae (Boas and Pythons)

*Genus*
Liasis

*Species*
Fuscus


Shingle back.

*Kingdom*
Animalia

*Phylum*
Chordata

*Class*
Reptilia

*Order*
Squamata (snakes and lizards)

*Suborder*
Sauria (Lizards)

*Family*
Scincidae

*Genus*
Tiliqua

*Species*
rugosa


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## GSXR_Boy (Oct 9, 2007)

It says in the add "potentionally dangerous"
Does this mean venom wise or to keeping species pure?


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## cris (Oct 9, 2007)

Since this thread already seems to have gone to crap, can someone explain to me what type of differances there are between a diamond python and a coastal carpet python that cannot be found between 2 differant breeds of dogs as far as taxonomy is concerned.


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## beardy_boy99 (Oct 9, 2007)

i would just like to imply on a totally unrelated topic, where the pure broad - headed and stephens actually went, after creating that potentially dangerous h...h...h...thing


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## Australis (Oct 9, 2007)

Back in their respective enclosures i imagine Beardy boy 99 :shock:

Where did you think they might go?


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## theduclos (Oct 9, 2007)

Australis said:


> Back in their respective enclosures i imagine Beardy boy 99 :shock:


 
i reckon alot of people need to go back in their respective enclosures lol. made for a good read though.


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## beardy_boy99 (Oct 10, 2007)

orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr i dunno staying 2gether? into the wild? hoo noes wat a venomous hybrid breeder would do?

lol


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