# should new licence applications be required to do a husbandry course?



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 13, 2007)

I think maybe whatever association is that is responsible for giving out licences should run a class for reptile husbandry, once a week or fortnight (depending on numbers) that is mandatory to attend before obtaining your recreational licence. Even if it is run through a TAFE or similar institution. It should cover all basic husbandry from setting up and maintaining a reptile enclosure, to feeding and handling all types of reptiles (because you don't want to redo the course every time you buy a new reptile) The course could be a minimal extra fee and go for a couple of hours, say a 3-4 hour course on a Thursday evening or Saturday afternoon.

Consider this: I paid around $50 give-or-take for my licence, sent my forms in to the EPA and in a week I had my licence mailed out to me. I am glad that I had previously researched a lot about owning reptiles, and continue to do research, but there are so many other people out there that don't bother. There are also several people I know who own a fairly large quantity of reptiles, and when I ask for advice sometimes I get rediculous answers. What if there are people like this giving bad advice to people who don't know better? It would be a lot easier for everyone if there was a standard that was taught, even just the basics so that everyone would be starting on the same level.

Sure, this scheme may make some private companies or institutions lose a bit of money because they were teaching this course already.. But honestly what is more important: a couple of blokes making some extra cash or every reptile owner having a good start? A lot of new reptile owners won't go searching for information from any sources, whether it be in books or the internet, let alone trying to find out if there are courses available. I didn't even know there were courses available until I started looking for advanced ones, so how are they supposed to know?

Also considering reptiles cost so much to buy, I don't think it would be a problem charging $150 for a licence, log book AND course (that isn't optional) instead of just $50 that any old joe can fork out, which can and often does result in poorly looked-after animals. 

I am really interested in your opinions.

-penny

(this stemmed from the "Movement of our herps... opinions please" thread)


----------



## Isis (Apr 13, 2007)

I totally agree that there should be more to getting a licence. But I think it should be a national licence as the state by state system is a nightmare. It would cut down on the people that get into reptiles for all the wrong reasons.


----------



## Chris89 (Apr 13, 2007)

I agree aswell.

Before I even got my reptile licence, I had been researching on and off for a couple of years on looking after snakes etc. While I was waiting for my licence to arrive, I was asking more of the experienced reptile keepers questions, and even on APS.. I did my research and I didn't go into owning a reptile knowing nothing, sure I might not know "alot" but I knew the basics to make sure that my python is happy and healthy.


----------



## Veredus (Apr 13, 2007)

I think that this would likely increase the popularity of the illegal reptil trade. Many people are unhappy when they learn they have to pay the license fee let alone having to pay for a compulsory course that will take 3-4 hours of their lives every week for however long. Although it would save a lot of grief for inexperienced keepers I think the negative side-effect is far too great a risk.


----------



## Bigbird (Apr 13, 2007)

I agree too.

I did do research before I got my beardies, but found a lot of the information conflicting. Had I had to do a course with my licence I probably wouldn't have found this to be as much of a problem.

I will continue to do research, but I do think a course would be a great idea to go along with the licence and I think it would serve to put off people who are not serious about owning a reptile.

I also think a national licence is a great idea as it must cause huge problems for anyone moving interstate.


----------



## Chris1 (Apr 13, 2007)

i definately think that should be done!

too many animals die needlessly cos people havent dont the appropriate research,..!!

good point on the iillegal trade, but theres so many people keeping them illegally already,..

maybe they should make the punishments more servere and actually follow it up...
if u had to show ur license to the person u buy rats and insects from, it'd be really hard finding a food source without a license,...


----------



## Ramsayi (Apr 13, 2007)

Courses would only be of limited use.How many people on this site for instance ask for advice and get good solid info based on years of experience only to throw it back in the face of the person offering the advice?Also who at the various NPWS offices would be qualified to do the teaching?

Most breeders who sell hatchlings to new keepers(even not so new ones if they ask) are more than happy to answer any and all questions and advise on the best way to look after the animal and are easily contactable should a problem crop up.Its all part of the service.Most of us spend countless hours a week answering questions either by email of phone during the breeding season.


----------



## Veredus (Apr 13, 2007)

The fact that an illegal trade already exists is no reason to encourage its growth. The penalties can only go as far as stopping people who get caught (likely a very small percentage of the total in the illegal trade). We would do far better to make the licensing system more enticing to those thinking about obtaining illegally so they may be convinced to collect legally.


----------



## mrsshep77 (Apr 13, 2007)

I agree there should be something more unionised and national regarding the licence situation! It would make paperwork and purchasing a little less of a hassle and more of a standard thing so everyone knew how to fill it out whether they were in Perth WA or Cairns QLD!
As for the traingin course, I agree there should be something more to getting your licence it is just a tad too easy but I think making it a course or something along those lines it will turn people off getting it as there are people who just don't like attending courses. They may feel that they can't express their knowledge on paper like some people but have better hands on experience which would make them eligible! 
I don't know what would make it a better system but it would be good if it was though!


----------



## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

definately penny..... and if ppl want to trade illegally they are going to whether u give them a legal way or not theres no stopping them so i dont think giving a new herper some hands on experience and info to start them off would be a great idea and as for the national thing i couldnt agree more.....


----------



## cris (Apr 13, 2007)

I think its great how cheap and easy it is to get a licence, making it harder and more expensive just turns more ppl away from keeping reptiles legally. I think some ppl should be prohibited from getting a licence if they have a criminal record or mental problems that would suggest they shouldnt be keeping animals(meaning only if the problem/crime would likely be an issue).

IMO it is up to the individual to learn how to care for their animals, if a course was required for reptiles it should also be required for all other animals too, espcially things like fish which are killed in much higher numbers through ignorant husbandry.


----------



## Vat69 (Apr 13, 2007)

cris said:


> IMO it is up to the individual to learn how to care for their animals, if a course was required for reptiles it should also be required for all other animals too, espcially things like fish which are killed in much higher numbers through ignorant husbandry.



Agreed. Although I'd also like to add 'children' to the list of animals.


----------



## morgs202 (Apr 13, 2007)

I think a compulsory course would be a great idea. As with many of us, I did plenty of research of my own, but as my partner and I both work for a large pet shop I can tell you there are far too many people who dont. I still cringe when I hear people who already own reptiles saying things like 'whats UV?' or 'oh, I thought itd be cheaper than this.' Most of them are willing to listen to advice, but a husbandry course before they got their licence would have prevented a problem at all.


----------



## Isis (Apr 13, 2007)

Making a licence harder and more expensive will weed out the less reponsible people that are attracted to herps. These are the people that are bringing down the herp world and making the whole scene appear to be full of cowboys and idiots. If it is harder and dearer to get a licence then it will mean if you really want to get into them you will work harder to get the licence and appreciate it and your herps more. At the moment anyone can and thats not good enough. We need to look at whats best for the animal not the human. We also would be an example to other areas of the pet industry and show them that we are being very responsible and take our responsibilities seriously.
Personally I also believe there should be a higher age limit on licences.


----------



## Reptilian (Apr 13, 2007)

I can see both sides of the situation...It would be great if we were made to do a course of somesort, but i can see how ppl may think that it would encourage others to do it illegally....I do think though that it is a little to easy to get your inital license, hay i got mine approved within 5 minutes of handing in the forms!!!

However, I do totally agree with makig the license national, and maybe get a small plastic card (like a drivers license) maybe without our address for security purposes, but with other license details, so we dont have to carry our paper license with us...Also make a better way of reporting our reptiles etc...


----------



## Chris1 (Apr 13, 2007)

if the course provided some good benefits, like 'meal tickets' fro a box of crickets or a few mice from ur local petshop, and a list of local food suppliers (which would be covered by the cost of the course), or even just a $10 voucher to put towards lights it might be more appealing.


----------



## Mystery (Apr 13, 2007)

Agree totally Penny - I went and did a course at Ithica (sp?) Tafe. I loved it - Learnt heaps of things that I didn't know. You see so much neglect to animals and quite often it is because the person just didn't know any better - sometimes they are not willing to learn.


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 13, 2007)

thats for the great responses everyone, keep em coming!



Chris1 said:


> if u had to show ur license to the person u buy rats and insects from, it'd be really hard finding a food source without a license,...


That sounds to me like a fantastic idea! maybe something like a photo ID card with your licence number and type of licence on it, and a stamp of authenticity. makes it a bit more durable than carrying your original papers around.



Ramsayi said:


> Most breeders who sell hatchlings to new keepers(even not so new ones if they ask) are more than happy to answer any and all questions and advise on the best way to look after the animal and are easily contactable should a problem crop up.Its all part of the service.Most of us spend countless hours a week answering questions either by email of phone during the breeding season.


A lot of people don't buy from breeders though. For example, from people who don't want their snakes anymore, or from pet shops, who often don't offer good advice, or conflicting advice.



Veredus said:


> Many people are unhappy when they learn they have to pay the license fee let alone having to pay for a compulsory course that will take 3-4 hours of their lives every week for however long.


Sorry I meant to say that the course would run regularly, but you only attend it once before aquiring your licence, as part of the application process. A 6 hour course would be more than enough to cover everything and even have a quiz at the end (I assume if you fail the quiz you get a second chance or something, similar to acquiring your first aid cert). a tuesday and thursday night clas for 3 hours each would cover it, or one full saturday. They could even do it just one saturday a month, or one week a month, depending on numbers of course. 



Ramsayi said:


> Also who at the various NPWS offices would be qualified to do the teaching?


Maybe they could employ the services of the companies that already offer basic husbandry courses (and perhaps set a standard of the basic requirements that they need to teach). 

Perhaps after your initial application for a licence (filling out forms and paying) then NPWS can send you a list of acceptable courses and when they are running, and then you go attend with a voucher from NPWS to say that it has been paid for, and then send the results of your quiz along with a copy of your cert to NPWS to complete the application process. Then, after it has been processed, your licence is mailed to you. 
OR after getting your basic husbandry certificate, you go to a QPWS office and get a photo ID along with your papers (if they were to utilise Chris's suggestion)



cris said:


> IMO it is up to the individual to learn how to care for their animals, if a course was required for reptiles it should also be required for all other animals too, espcially things like fish which are killed in much higher numbers through ignorant husbandry.


I think a husbandry course and certification for all animals should be necessary.

For example, did you know you can buy sharks in aquarium stores and pet stores? A lot of people will buy them because they aren't very expensive (cheaper than a lot of snakes!) and they look cool, but they aren't goldfish thats for sure! I work with a shark at a high school, and there are several other high schools under the same marine science program. Every single school (apart from mine) has had at least one shark die, most at least 2 or 3, but they think "whatever, its just a shark we can buy another one" even though the point of the program is to help their conservation :shock: I don't know if it was because they were lazy and didn't test the water or feed the shark properly, I know one death was because they only had one filter, and a lump of food that was left in the tank blocked the pump and the shark died. You should have heard some of their mind-numbingly stupid stories that make you think "where's the common sense?". I had no previous aquarium experience when we started the program but I researched like crazy and put a great deal of effort into our marine tank, and I am proud to say that it paid off because our first shark was sucessfully released, our second shark is alive and healthy, due for release in 2 weeks and we will receive our 3rd shark on that day, with no deaths thus far, and hopefully not ever. 
My school's success was because we put a bit of effort into researching our marine setup. I found it strange at the time that the people we were running it through gave us no information on how to make a setup. In my opinion they should have given us hands-on training prior to commencing the program.
It is the same for all animal owners. Just think of the stories you hear in the news about animals being treated poorly. Half the time its owners neglect but a lot of the time they just don't know any better and don't bother trying to find out about it. Owner neglect would be solved if you were required to have a certification before buying any pet. it doesn't have to be expensive or anything, just like a $40 2 hour course on how to look after a specific animal (eg a cat course or bird course). IMO any dog or cat should be neutered before selling except to licenced breeders. 

anyway that post is way too long already! sorry about that, I had a lot on my mind :lol:

looking forward to the responses
-penny


----------



## swingonthespiral (Apr 13, 2007)

thats penny 1 rest of u against her 0 in my books.... penny perhaps u could send something to the EPA etc and bug them for a while cos i think its a brilliant idea and im sure u could get a few signatures from ppl to support it....

also with running the courses NPWS doesnt have to run them.... it could be a good thing to employ a respected/experienced herper/breeder to run them whom would probably know more anyway..... so it could be one of us getting paid if u know what i mean.....


----------



## nickamon (Apr 13, 2007)

I think a husbandry course is a good idea. I'd have been happy to do a husbandry course as a condition of getting my licence. All I had to do was pay for the licence and import applications, which I think is too lax (yay NSW :| ). I'd been wanting a snake for two years before I got my Cassie this year, and that gave me plenty of time to study up...and get my own place in NSW.  

I used to live in the ACT and their conditions are stricter, but also ridiculous. You have to know some husbandry, belong to a herp club, and show that type of tank your animal will live in. Can't argue with that, but they make you start with a lizard (bluey, beardie, shingleback). No pythons allowed for the first two years. Tough luck to people like me who don't particularly care for dragons and skinks. :? 

I think husbandry courses would be a happy medium, instead of NSW lax-ness and ACT toughness.


----------



## jeramie85 (Apr 13, 2007)

i also think when you buy your first snake/python there should be some form of a cool down period like when buying guns you have to wait 28 days before you can actually have it

so as to help remove some of this "impulse buying" that people who have just got there license or people mainly younger people who walk into a pet shop and buy one without a license because its cool or there mates are with em


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 13, 2007)

I think I'll get onto this.. I'll have to type up a professional-looking proposal and find out who's the best person/people to sent it to...


----------



## Veredus (Apr 13, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> if ppl want to trade illegally they are going to whether u give them a legal way or not theres no stopping them



For some reason it always come back to this. I will say it again just because there are people out there who are willing to do it does not mean we should encourage them with such opinions as "they will do it anyway" or "humans kill more than cats." Its akin to a far lesser extent to allowing a tyrant to massacre civillians simply because "He's going to kill people anyway."


----------



## Sdaji (Apr 13, 2007)

If you search through the archives, you'll find this topic has been discussed at length several times, many relevant points are in those threads which haven't been raised here. If you are serious about doing this, make sure you read through the old material first as you'll learn a lot.


----------



## COOP (Apr 14, 2007)

happy enough with the easy application for a newbie, got my licence in the post two days ago, money isnt an issue with some people either


----------



## moosenoose (Apr 14, 2007)

Vat69 said:


> Agreed. Although I'd also like to add 'children' to the list of animals.




Spot on Erin!


----------



## Earthling (Apr 14, 2007)

Go for it Penny. Great idea! 
Its ideas like this that when acted on can make real change. 

Whilst by doing nothing...........well......same old same old.

Go for it!


----------



## Magpie (Apr 14, 2007)

There should also be a course and licence before you are allowed to buy power tools.
And before you can buy or use a kettle.
And before you are allowed to operate a cooktop.
Also before you are allowed to go shopping, you should have to do a 2 week intensive training program.


----------



## Earthling (Apr 14, 2007)

Magpie said:


> There should also be a course and licence before you are allowed to buy power tools.
> And before you can buy or use a kettle.
> And before you are allowed to operate a cooktop.
> Also before you are allowed to go shopping, you should have to do a 2 week intensive training program.


 
Magpie!  I take it your in the negative camp by this slippery slope reasoning yeah?
Unfortunately all of your examples are not similiar as we are talking about the care of another animal not ourselves......if we make a mistake in your examples its predominately on our own head....however, in regards to training for herps its humans having control of another animals health and wellbeing which is the important thing you seem to have amissed in your examples.

If however you are referring to the over use of courses and bigbrothers control in our lives and the complexity our society goes into for insurance reasons....I agree with you to an extent...however when our ignorance affects other animals health and wellbeing then a course has merits....

Case by case basis.


----------



## Hickson (Apr 14, 2007)

it's been said in this thread a few times already, bu t the message seems to be ignored, so I'll repeat it:

If you make it more difficult to get a license, you will encourage more people to keep herps without a license.

It's been suggested that there may be more people without licenses keeping reptiles than there are licensed keepers. Increasing fees, or making people do a course, will only add to the problem. The authorities know this and until they get the funding and resources to pursue illegal reptile holders, they will not do anything to add to the problem.



Hix


----------



## nuthn2do (Apr 14, 2007)

Whats being suggested here makes it more difficult to get than a firearms license and for what good? If you read over some recent threads some people don't abide by the current regulations.


----------



## Earthling (Apr 14, 2007)

Hix said:


> it's been said in this thread a few times already, bu t the message seems to be ignored, so I'll repeat it:
> 
> If you make it more difficult to get a license, you will encourage more people to keep herps without a license.
> 
> ...


Its been touched on Hix but not much...granted.

Also you say :" Its been suggested that there may be more people without licences keeping reptiles then there are licenced keepers." two words...Suggested...May. Not.....Confirmed...Is. 
Sorry...not a good argument.


It comes down to marketing...If you say you must do this course or your fried!
Negative response will usually come back.

However, if you market it as a fantastic oppurtunity to for 'free' learn about the care of herps, with an added voucher form a petstore of the value say $20....(petstores would be willing to do some advertising here if pursued...I would), it comes across in a completely different light. 
Of course the course is not free but added on to the licence cost which initially people will spaz out at but after a few months people quickly forget...especially with positive input from forums such as this on the courses merits. 
Course cost if 10 or more people come each week should only be mininmal anyways...$50 max. Especially once course material is finalised. So not a huge increase to a licence cost after all. Cost could be spread out onto yearly licence fee increase of only $10 maybe for all.


Also no test would be a good idea....as you cant force it down peoples throats.....more of an information course would also stop the negative 'I must pass or fail' negative outlook. As you would give the course in booklet form for future reading.

No problem after all Hix.


----------



## Forensick (Apr 14, 2007)

if there was a course required, i doubt very much i would be getting into herps.
when you work 70 odd hours, nights and weekends, i'll NEVER be able to make it to a course designed for 95% of working people.
money wouldn't be the issue, but unless this course is getting done, within a 10 min walk of my house (i don't drive), and about 10am on a wed morning. i have no hope of getting to it.

such a course, excludes people like me from moving into this hobby, someone who over a month before even LOOKING for a licence form was looking into the hows, whats, and whys of keeping the animals i looked at..

and i am fairly sure i will be a better keeper than many who will "pass" this course.
just like i am sure i am a better motorcycle rider than many people who also passed their L's test in my group.

such a class will never turn the fools, morons, irrisponsible and stupid people into sensible responsible people, and at the end of the day, its the latter you'd rather looking after animals, course or no.

-that said if their was a course, and i could get time to do it, and i was looking at getting snakes, i probably would try and go.


----------



## Magpie (Apr 14, 2007)

I had to get my boat licence recently, what a joke. 8 hour course and all you really have to do is be there for the whole time. No one fails, the test is open book.
I am very firmly against this idea, it's another example of people thinking that laws are the way to fix a perceived problem. The fact is most captive reptiles are better cared for today than they were 20 years ago. Read some old books, fishtanks, mesh lids, lack of heating, mites, canker, all were comon place.
$50 per person? Are you kidding? You would be lucky to get a half decent venue on a sunday for $500, let alone provide course material, refreshments, insurance and of course, make enough to make it worth your while to work a weekend.
Who is going to run the courses? You may get a decent person to run it in the big cities, what about in West Woop woop? Even then, the person who runs it in Sydney will call it quits after 12 months dealing with Joe Public. Ever worked in Retail?
So basically, you can only keep legal reptiles if you live in a big city, are willing to fork out for the licence (boat licence costs about $200 just for the course to give you an idea) and there is someone half knowledgable willing to put themselves through hell to run the course.


----------



## Veredus (Apr 14, 2007)

Forensick has touched on a very good point. We license and train people to drive cars, trucks, motorcycles etc. But look how many people still ignore the rules and what they learnt on their L's. People drive while they are drunk, they speed, they pull off foolish tricks. I imagine there are many people who get into this hobby simply to show off and others still that just don't like to listen to the experts because they believe themselves to be always right. It is simply my opinion the the risk of increased illegal trading is too heavy to merit the introduction of a course that may be largely ignored by some of the more foolish people and there is no denying they are out there.


----------



## wichita (Apr 14, 2007)

Perhaps the application for a license should be accompanied with the correct answers to a questionaire.

eg
The breed of snake I am considering aquiring is........
The enclosure requirements of this breed is......
The feeding regime for this snake as a hatchling is.....
Does this breed require UV light in its enclosure (Y/N)....
etc etc

This approach could gently direct people to do some research and on their own time in their own way. Could even use APS wiki as their source 

Just an idea...


----------



## Earthling (Apr 14, 2007)

Magpie i was thinking the course could be run in house by the EPA. Venue no cost as they have meeting areas that could be used. Refreshments.....tea coffee water. Profit....no profit. Wage of lecturer is the main cost the rest are incidentals. Cheap now yeah?...
i know this in house thing is a radical idea but for some strange reason its cheaper then contracting out...what a surprise!

As to open book tests...we have become a society where nearly all known knowledge can be found at a click of a button....the internet.....people are being tested in open books on how to find information they need not by remembering it. The old way of rembering is of course still needed however its more important that people can find information now then rember everything. New times......new testing methods......
Its also been found to assist people in remembering as they look for a solution to a problem.

You say "it's another example of people thinking that laws are the way to fix a perceived problem. The fact is most captive reptiles are better cared for today than they were 20 years ago."
Contradiction Magpie. 
You say "percieved problem" then go onto say "most captive reptiles are better cared for ......."
? Are all reps cared for adequatley or not? If 'yes' no solution is needed...however if 'no' a solution is perhaps needed.
This suggestion by Penny and talked about is a fair solution suggested.
If you have a better answer to the problem which hopefully you see is their....may we have it please?


----------



## wichita (Apr 14, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Magpie i was thinking the course could be run in house by the EPA. Venue no cost as they have meeting areas that could be used. Refreshments.....tea coffee water. Profit....no profit. Wage of lecturer is the main cost the rest are incidentals. Cheap now yeah?...
> i know this in house thing is a radical idea but for some strange reason its cheaper then contracting out...what a surprise!
> 
> As to open book tests...we have become a society where nearly all known knowledge can be found at a click of a button....the internet.....people are being tested in open books on how to find information they need not by remembering it. The old way of rembering is of course still needed however its more important that people can find information now then rember everything. New times......new testing methods......
> ...


 
I think you may have problems with locations and numbers. A lot of people live a long way away from EPA offices. 

Perhaps an online/snail mail course?


----------



## Earthling (Apr 14, 2007)

wichita said:


> I think you may have problems with locations and numbers. A lot of people live a long way away from EPA offices.
> 
> Perhaps an online/snail mail course?


 
Now thats a solution!
I like it!


----------



## cris (Apr 14, 2007)

I dont actually think there is a need for anything to be done, but if they wanted to do something they would put a short multichoice exam on the licence application, to ensure ppl know the very basic things about reptiles such as them being ecotherms, not being a typical domestic pet and having particular needs that should be met etc. 

The licence applicaton should also give some basic advice on where to get basic care information such as web pages, books and the code of practice should be sent out with licences or applications.

I think a week should be the minimum time to get a licence and as i mentioned earlier criminal and medical(mental) records should be checked for any potential problems.


----------



## wichita (Apr 14, 2007)

cris said:


> medical(mental) records should be checked for any potential problems.


 
uh oh...


----------



## nuthn2do (Apr 14, 2007)

wichita said:


> uh oh...


Hey wichita can you smell napalm?


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 14, 2007)

Forensick said:


> if there was a course required, i doubt very much i would be getting into herps.
> when you work 70 odd hours, nights and weekends, i'll NEVER be able to make it to a course designed for 95% of working people.
> money wouldn't be the issue, but unless this course is getting done, within a 10 min walk of my house (i don't drive), and about 10am on a wed morning. i have no hope of getting to it.
> 
> ...



Maybe they could have an RPL type of written test sent to people who can't attend the course.


----------



## wichita (Apr 14, 2007)

croc_hunter_penny said:


> Maybe they could have an RPL type of written test sent to people who can't attend the course.


 
Ok. So let's write the course. 

I've done some lecturing (TAFEs, Unis, industry approx 20 years) and I'm sure that there's lots of APS members with more experience than me. As far as content goes it's all here in the heads of members of APS. 

Lets write it and see where it ends up.


----------



## Strange1 (Apr 14, 2007)

Yeap, I was very disappointed in how easy it was to get my license.
Send us money and we will mail one out to you!
I was expecting atleast a basic knowledge test argh!


----------



## wichita (Apr 14, 2007)

nuthn2do said:


> Hey wichita can you smell napalm?


 
LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: !!!


----------



## little guy (Apr 14, 2007)

I fully agree penny a basic species pacific Husbandry course should be a part of receiving your licence. This should include some sort of criminal / mental check.
{This does not mean disabled or criminals cant keep them.} 
I have seen some bad husbandry in my time and it was not by any one keeping them illegally.
{ Not that i would ever back poachers.}
1 case a bloke who had received his licence in NSW bought a baby blue tongue from me. After asking me to sex the lizard I explained it was nearly impossible to do with out popping hemi's. A practice i do not recommend unless the person is trained and has a good reputation for doing this procedure and even then i would be worried.
He seemed keen and away he went. 
Next thing his wife not him is carrying the lizard around town like a baby { i swear}. Stopping people in shop's and the street too "check it out ". This went on for weeks.
I explained how this was not aloud and not good for the lizard.{not that it stopped her.}
A week later he's at my door with a reptile mag he just bought that showed how popping hemi's was done! Dont you try it i said you will kill the lizard. 
Not 12 hour's later he is on the phone there is something wrong with the bluey. What I said? Something is hanging out of it's bum. After the lizard died a painful death at the hands of this pair of fool's I went ballistic and told them not to come near me ever again and I will do my all to tell people about what they did. {So there it is}, He is still licenced and continues to add to his list of disasters.
Australian wide Course approved Licencing is the way to go. 
Make a Human pay or work for something and they will look after it.


----------



## cris (Apr 14, 2007)

Little guy why do you think them going to a course would have stopped that from happening? or are you just telling the story for an unrelated reason?


----------



## ScottBec (Apr 14, 2007)

I live in Rockhampton, and we have an EPA office about 15mins from my house, I was (at the time of getting my herp licence) a dunty manager at a busy tavern in town - - so my roster was varied, and my sleeping was usually done during the day... 

This is mind, I wouldn't be able to attend the original course time suggested, but I would say I have spent about a month researching each species we now keep (BEFORE WE BOUGHT IT) and we have introduced a number of people into the herping way of life.

I would even say We're developing our own methods of husbandry to suit our climate.... Can you really suggest that a standardised course would correct any problems that are at hand - even if we only consider that Qld EPA provide details of _minimun_ standards for keeping species (the amount of vents is varied between Rocky and Brissy, not to mention those further north)

IMO a stratagy that should be adopted is that all EPA reptile officers be educated, and that more information is supplied with your licence - - I got min Licence about 2 years ago and the only thing I received inthe mail was _my licence_. I have helped a friend complete thier licence and I was suprized that the paperwork had not vaired, however I was impressed with the Ecoaccess info that was supplied... (I had tosearch and find this for myself)....

Maybe as suggested above, we should recieve more info with our licences, and yes, maybe increase the licence fees to cope with the supply of docs....

How many Qlders would know if they can keep a Brown tree snake (venomous) a Rec licence, or if / how many womas one can keep = = these are the basic rules/obligations that should be provided *in easy to understand enghlish* for every new licence that's issued... AND while we're at it - one licence for the entire country would be a good start!!!!

Again: this is my opion and is a lot of venting, as I have also witnessed a horrible death (a licenced herper with no knowledge)


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 17, 2007)

I am talking about designing a basic course.. I don't mean to make everyone a professional, just something to give a clue to those who don't have one. At the end of the day if they obviously still don't have a clue then they won't pass the quiz therefore they won't get a licence. I imagine that it would be very basic. How to furnish an enclosure (hides, water, heat mats etc) how to handle reptiles safely, stuff like that. Just information that everyone should know, and lots of people don't. Anyone with half a brain would then adapt what they have learned for their own house, animal and climate, and those without half a brain still has good solid advice to go from.

Like i said earlier, they could have a test that those who can't attend the course can fill out, with a theory book (that everyone can get a copy of, for future reference)

-penny


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 17, 2007)

ynnep-

?ssecorp eht trats ot od ot deen i od tahw .ot woh wonk t'nod i tub ,esruoc a pu etirw ot evol dluow i aetihciw


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 17, 2007)

uh, sorry my computer screwed up and made everything type backwards? weird.. anyway what I was trying to say:

wichita I would love to write up a course, but i don't know how to. What do I need to do to start the process?

-penny


----------



## hazzard (Apr 17, 2007)

Like the correct handling procedure in your AVATAR Penny?

Half the people on this site wouldn't pass a basic knowledge or skills test! 

10 points for trying, however it will not be adopted. They are already at looking at easier ways of handling licensing like simple on line application forms and then printing your license. These departments are under-resourced and any attempt to tighten legislation would increase the cost dramaticallly! 

How many people on here would whinge if they were to double the license fee to adopt the administration of such a system? 

As Rams said, who is qualified to teach these courses? You would need to set up a comittee of experts to design the course. They won't adopt a course designed by APS members! IMO most on here would fail the course if they did it themselves.

It would be nice if it did happen and i encourage you to pursue it, but get some backing from some people with influence or you will get nowhere. Talk to the scientists and the big breeders and get their opinions!

They don't do it for dogs and cats, birds or fish and they won't do it for reptiles!


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 17, 2007)

hazzard said:


> Like the correct handling procedure in your AVATAR Penny?


What's wrong with my avatar? Thanks for starting the personal attacks though, I was wondering when that was gonna happen.  



hazzard said:


> Half the people on this site wouldn't pass a basic knowledge or skills test!


charming.. Isn't that why we are all here?



hazzard said:


> 10 points for trying, however it will not be adopted. They are already at looking at easier ways of handling licensing like simple on line application forms and then printing your license. These departments are under-resourced and any attempt to tighten legislation would increase the cost dramaticallly!


Maybe they should stop worrying about whats going into their pockets and start worrying about the animals they are supposed to be protecting.



hazzard said:


> How many people on here would whinge if they were to double the license fee to adopt the administration of such a system?


I know I wouldn't. I was really surprised at how cheap it was. It costs a lot more than that to get any other kind of licence, and any licence that I can think of comes with some kind of training, whether formal or informal. It is hardly a licence at all IMO, it is more of a record of who is keeping what animal - a registration.



hazzard said:


> As Rams said, who is qualified to teach these courses? You would need to set up a comittee of experts to design the course. They won't adopt a course designed by APS members! IMO most on here would fail the course if they did it themselves.


It isn't a course designed by APS members, besides the fact that I am sure that other members of this site have some sort of job, degree or qualification in many areas - besides the ability to use a keyboard - that could aid in the design of such a course. There are teachers, vets, herpetologists, students in biology, reptile breeders and sellers, animal carers, and herp owners. I am not sure what you would consider a comittee of "experts" but what exactly makes an expert of reptile husbandry? I am not talking about creating a degree in herpetology, just a simple basic course to give people a kick start into owning and caring for reptiles. The quiz isn't to stop 90% of applicants from getting their licence, it's just to make sure they were paying attention.

You know there _are_ plenty of basic husbandry courses out there already. My point in starting this thread was to say that I personally didn't know these courses existed until i started looking for somewhere to do a vens course, long after getting my licence. If I didn't know they were there, then how many other people are unaware of their courses? 



hazzard said:


> They don't do it for dogs and cats, birds or fish and they won't do it for reptiles!


Maybe they should.


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Apr 17, 2007)

Penny, before i have my say i just want to say I am new to reptiles.

I think Hazzard was referring to the fact your snake has been placed on your glasses, and then it appears that it has been pulled by the head and tail whilst still wrapped around the glasses. Even if that is not what it appears, it certainly looks to be very careless/cruel to anyone who can only see the pictures.



> Maybe they should stop worrying about whats going into their pockets and start worrying about the animals they are supposed to be protecting.


 
There is a VERY VERY small percentage of people who would take on a full time or time consuming job such as what they do if they were not payed. If they raise the fees for a class 1 licence to $120/2yrs i would expect a very signifigant drop in the amount of people renewing and applying for licences. What would this mean? Well simple, there will be little or no more extra money made. Asking for a test would require money to pay people to supervise the exam, to print the test out, to pay more people to cope with all the extra proccessing that would need to be completed etc. You have raised a nice little question but if you were to pursue this further, you wouldn't go anywhere without a stronger arguement. 



> Originally Posted by *hazzard*
> 
> 
> _How many people on here would whinge if they were to double the license fee to adopt the administration of such a system?_
> I know I wouldn't. I was really surprised at how cheap it was. It costs a lot more than that to get any other kind of licence, and any licence that I can think of comes with some kind of training, whether formal or informal. It is hardly a licence at all IMO, it is more of a record of who is keeping what animal - a registration.


 
I would not be happy about it. I would pay it but not be happy. But if you were to add extra costs to the intial setup cost there would be alot of very dissapointed little kids and adults who cannot afford it.

What about the 12yr olds who have saved up just enough money for a cage, equipment, bluey and the $60 fee only to find out they have to save for a few months before they can get there lizard? 

Goodluck with what you hope to do.

Sam


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 17, 2007)

mcloughlin2 said:


> Penny, before i have my say i just want to say I am new to reptiles.
> I think Hazzard was referring to the fact your snake has been placed on your glasses, and then it appears that it has been pulled by the head and tail whilst still wrapped around the glasses. Even if that is not what it appears, it certainly looks to be very careless/cruel to anyone who can only see the pictures.


I promise he did that on his own.



mcloughlin2 said:


> There is a VERY VERY small percentage of people who would take on a full time or time consuming job such as what they do if they were not payed. If they raise the fees for a class 1 licence to $120/2yrs i would expect a very signifigant drop in the amount of people renewing and applying for licences. What would this mean? Well simple, there will be little or no more extra money made. Asking for a test would require money to pay people to supervise the exam, to print the test out, to pay more people to cope with all the extra proccessing that would need to be completed etc. You have raised a nice little question but if you were to pursue this further, you wouldn't go anywhere without a stronger arguement.


It wouldn't be an exam, it would be a pop quiz. At most a "were you paying attention in class?" quiz not "are you going to be the best herper in the universe?" quiz. It's one piece of paper, if that. Considering they post half a ream to you about what you can own etc etc, what is one more piece of paper? then there are those people who can't make it to classes. Ok, well they can just have the booklet and the quiz to return. Then you may say "well why doesn't everyone just get a booklet? Nothing beats hands-on experience! 

They could easily make the licence from $50 change to $70 and that would include the class and booklet. To cover the costs for the classes (that they can run once a month instead of weekly, depending on interest) they can get reptile product companies and pet stores to advertise products at the end of the booklet, or within if appropriate. 



mcloughlin2 said:


> I would not be happy about it. I would pay it but not be happy. But if you were to add extra costs to the intial setup cost there would be alot of very dissapointed little kids and adults who cannot afford it.
> 
> What about the 12yr olds who have saved up just enough money for a cage, equipment, bluey and the $60 fee only to find out they have to save for a few months before they can get there lizard?



Patience is a virtue.

Besides, I _was_ that kid! I have wanted a snake since I was a child. I found an aquarium near my house that sold snakes, and they told me it would cost $600 for my licence, an enclosure and a childrens python. So I saved and I saved.. Just before I reached my goal, my family moved to QLD (From Melbourne) where at the time you couldn't even buy snakes from pet stores. My parents didn't know where to find private breeders or how to get a licence, so I didn't get one until I was an adult. 
Tell ya what it made me appreciate my snakes a whole lot more than it would if I forked out a couple of weeks of pocket money for one, or harassed my parents 'til iI had my way (gotta love kids).
Kids could learn something from being shown how to properly care for their first reptile anyway, so whats another week or three of pocket money to make sure your new lizard doesn't die?

-penny


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Apr 17, 2007)

It may be the case, but to a newbie or anyone really it looks like someones pulled the snake.  

I do believe you but.

If i was one of the people who could not make the exam, if i was to recieve a exam through the mail, whats stopping me from asking for the answers or searching on the net?

So many ' but if '


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 17, 2007)

mcloughlin2 said:


> It may be the case, but to a newbie or anyone really it looks like someones pulled the snake.
> 
> I do believe you but.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter where you get the answers from. The point of the quiz is to get your brain thinking about what is best for your reptiles. In fact looking up the answers from other sources would start your own research!  Which is what a lot of new herp owners don't do. 

-penny


----------



## learning snake man (Apr 17, 2007)

* Hello i remember a political party put the bird licence up to 800$, at one stage the the Libs came in and reversed it so give it time an hefty incress in licence fees will sort out a lot of owners as 20.30,000 in Australia. and just like a car licence a test should be inplace online or epa,s australia wide or sub offices PS; most likely their wont be an increase in fee,s as this is only my thought but you never know what ever is around the track also as for pushing it under ground you just have to increase the fines for keeping unlicence reptiles like to 10.000 + and you take a lot of that out of it as 99% of people won,t risk 10,000 fines+but a test yes for all animals it,s some protection*


----------



## Ramsayi (Apr 18, 2007)

And this is where the trouble starts.For everyone stating that some sort of testing be adopted then what is going to happen if you disagree with correct handling practises that this course/test might promote?

For everyone that thinks keeping snakes in pairs or more is correct procedure,what will you have to say when guidelines would promote keeping snakes singly (with a few exceptions) except when breeding ?

The list could go on and on.

After all the intent of this idea is for the good of the animals,trouble is when experienced keepers point out the correct and accepted way to keep reptiles a lot of others with limited experience wont hear a word of it.That being the case what hope would there be for people taking such course/test to actually come away from it and impliment what was being promoted if they happen to disagree with what these courses might teach?

Also its been touched on already that there is no such thing in place for any other pets so why should reptiles be singled out?


----------



## deisel (Apr 18, 2007)

i agree with you on a questionaire when you fill out your licence application so you have to do the research yourself that way the information gets stuck in your head alot easier. i would say no to a course only for the fact that i am up at 5.00 am and home at 6.30 pm 6 days a week and what of the people living at great distances from cities but having said this i have learned alot from books and the great people on this site for which i am appreciative of


----------



## Hickson (Apr 18, 2007)

Earthling said:


> Its been touched on Hix but not much...granted.
> 
> Also you say :" Its been suggested that there may be more people without licences keeping reptiles then there are licenced keepers." two words...Suggested...May. Not.....Confirmed...Is.
> Sorry...not a good argument.



It might not be the best argument, because of a lack of imperical data (and it would be hard to get), but if you think the authorities would ignore this because we haven't got solid numbers, then you're mistaken.

It is widely known that there is a very large number of unlicensed reptile holders (in NSW at least), and the authorities will not be doing anything that will add to that number.



Hix


----------



## angua21 (Apr 18, 2007)

In the ACT, recreational reptile keepers are only allowed a choice of a few species as their first pet, and all of them are licence exempt in the ACT... only blue tongues, beardies shinglebacks and one type of turtle can bee kept on a 'class A' license for 2 years, with the purchase reciept from their first lizard being the proof of start date.....
I found this out after going to my favourite reptile shop in Canberra the other day, and can i say i am glad I dont live in the ACT.... I am sure they would love to have access to a national licensing system, or even a minor husbandry course that would allow them to obtain a wider range earlier on. however having said that, there are some species in some states that arent allowed to be kept by hobbyists at all. even on the highest license class in the ACT, ony a few species of python can be kept. i guess they would have some sort of reason for this, so would a national type license become more confusing because of this? 
(genuine question guys, i dont know why the species allowed are limited some places, and would love to know if anyone has any idea)

but back on topic, had there been a course made available when i applied for my license, i would have done it, it would have taken no more of my time than all the research i did on the net, and reading anything i could get my hands on about keeping reptiles. 

great idea in theory, but i doubt the authorities will ever make the effort.....


----------



## Earthling (Apr 18, 2007)

Hix said:


> It might not be the best argument, because of a lack of imperical data (and it would be hard to get), but if you think the authorities would ignore this because we haven't got solid numbers, then you're mistaken.
> 
> It is widely known that there is a very large number of unlicensed reptile holders (in NSW at least), and the authorities will not be doing anything that will add to that number.
> 
> ...


 
Widely known....but is it true?
I remember a similiar argument and they convinced many about the truth of it all regarding weapons of mass destruction.......... 
If something is widely known but their is no evidence to back it up......Mmmmmm......that does not automatically make it a truth. 
Im sure the 'authorities' (which are actually us! Now theirs a weird concept) as they have in the past will work from fear....why would that change!


----------



## hazzard (Apr 18, 2007)

Are you trying to have an argument about this!

It is widely known, there are hundreds of individuals un-licensed in NSW, many of these people have extensive collections of exotic reptiles. There is barely a week that goes by that i'm not offered any. On top of this numerous kids collect reptiles from the wild and keep them as they don't know any better or don't have sufficient $ to get started.

We receive at our reptile unit donations of unlicensed animals from unlicensed keepers all the time.

So earthling should have an amnesty so we can get the stats you desire? Would this be the best thing? 








Earthling said:


> Widely known....but is it true?
> I remember a similiar argument and they convinced many about the truth of it all regarding weapons of mass destruction..........
> If something is widely known but their is no evidence to back it up......Mmmmmm......that does not automatically make it a truth.
> Im sure the 'authorities' (which are actually us! Now theirs a weird concept) as they have in the past will work from fear....why would that change!


----------



## Hickson (Apr 18, 2007)

The problem with an amnesty is your data set will be skewed towards those that are prepared to hand their animals over.

But it may give an indication of the size of the problem.



Hix


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 18, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> And this is where the trouble starts.For everyone stating that some sort of testing be adopted then what is going to happen if you disagree with correct handling practises that this course/test might promote?


As I was saying, it isn't a PhD in herpetology, it is simply something to get the brain thinking about what is best for their reptile. Theres no pass or fail, right or wrong. I imagine it having sections for different animals (snakes/skinks/dragons/monitors/turtles/frogs), and covering all necessary aspects of basic husbandry.

For example, it isn't going to say "you must only ever use this kind of substrate! all other substrates are dangerous for your snake."
It will say "Your snake needs a substrate for their tank. There is a wide variety of substrates you can choose from, and we have listed some for you below" and then have a list saying Newspaper, marine carpet, etc and maybe a little something about why they are good - ease of cleaning, better traction for the snakes, whatever. The reason for this is so that when they go into the pet store they can think about _why_ the substrate they are choosing will be best for them and their reptile. 
It can also have a glossary of terms at the back, so that people can understand what words like "substrate" mean.

Every reptile setup requires an enclosure, water bowl, hide, and substrate. It would also cover different heating techniques and the use of a thermostat to control temperatures. It would explain why it needs all of these things. 

It could also be used to turn people off buying the "cooler" animals until they have more experience. For example owning a monitor or a frilly would be neat but they might not be prepared to build an enclosure in their back yard, so they could decide to start of with a couple of beardys instead. Not that I want to deter anyone from owning reptiles, but if you don't have the space to own one then you shouldn't get one. 



Ramsayi said:


> For everyone that thinks keeping snakes in pairs or more is correct procedure,what will you have to say when guidelines would promote keeping snakes singly (with a few exceptions) except when breeding ?


It could say something along the lines of "It is recommended that all snakes be kept in their own enclosures, but it is common practice to pair two of the same type of snakes together. Make sure you do your research before pairing, because some snakes, such as the blackheaded python, eat other snakes!"

Something like that anyway. Yes I do know that some people pair different kinds of snakes, and when they are young that is fine, but when they reach sexual maturity, well, thats where hybrids come from.. 
.


Ramsayi said:


> After all the intent of this idea is for the good of the animals,trouble is when experienced keepers point out the correct and accepted way to keep reptiles a lot of others with limited experience wont hear a word of it.That being the case what hope would there be for people taking such course/test to actually come away from it and impliment what was being promoted if they happen to disagree with what these courses might teach?


What makes you think that the _basic_ things that will be mentioned in this book won't be correct or the accepted way? it wouldn't be a set single-line instruction saying "you MUST do this!" it will have many ways that are all correct, that the new licence owner can then decide on which one they like best or find most appropriate for their reptile. It is also aimed to give them the nudge into doing their own research for what is best for them and their reptiles.



Ramsayi said:


> Also its been touched on already that there is no such thing in place for any other pets so why should reptiles be singled out?


Like I said, maybe there should be. 
Think about how much paper goes into your rubbish bin (or hopefully recycling bin) every day from advertising and junk put in your mailbox, including rubbish from the government. 

You know those little series that the courier mail runs occasionally? "for the next six weeks in the newspaper you can collect a set of mini-magazines". The could do a promotion like that, where each week you get a little booklet or magazine about how to look after an animal. week 1: dogs, week 2: cats, week 3: fish, week 4: birds, week 5: rodents, week 6: reptiles. Or just stick it straight in your letterbox, as a national incentive.

I'm not trying to outdo anyone of money, eg authors of pet owning books, but a lot of people don't want to buy books or think that what they are doing already is ok. If it is something they can browse through because it's already sitting on their kitchen bench, well that is another story.

-penny


----------



## Vincent (Apr 18, 2007)

I know almost as many reptile keepers without a lisense as i do with one. These people are not interested in having a lisense, regardless if they cost nothing. They have absolutly no problems breeding and selling reptiles through out the country. The majority of them only keep native reptiles as well. A lot of people simply think the lisensing system and the way you have to pay to import/export, fill out needless paperwork, is just too much hassle. And the majority are not cowboys like some people would think, their just average people who dont agree with all the needless paperwork involved with having a lisense. These are just facts.


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 18, 2007)

This isn't about making everyone get a licence, it's about getting information to new licence owners so that they can have a good start.

-penny


----------



## Earthling (Apr 18, 2007)

hazzard said:


> Are you trying to have an argument about this!
> 
> It is widely known, there are hundreds of individuals un-licensed in NSW, many of these people have extensive collections of exotic reptiles. There is barely a week that goes by that i'm not offered any. On top of this numerous kids collect reptiles from the wild and keep them as they don't know any better or don't have sufficient $ to get started.
> 
> ...


 
A discussion/argument is good a heated argument no. Ive had the odd exotic offered to me but not the numbers you describe. I would not accept the view that their are a very large number on someones 'belief' alone...I dont believe things that easily..however if people like yourself come forward and tell me what is being offered and how often well then I would certainly have proof that a 'large' number of exotics are out their...and my view would change as a result.

If these people are not interested in getting a licence,period,a small increase in cost and a information session and/or questionaire and booklet is not going to change them...but it would help the people who would like to get a licence but feel they cant as of current reps yeah?

If people are going to keep reps without a licence perhaps an amnesty would be best. Gives them the chance to become legal if australian animals...and to register their exotics with hopefully the proviso that they dont breed. Many states have done amnesties before and it works well....not for all but it certaily assists.


----------



## Luke_G (Apr 18, 2007)

What is the EPA like on keepeing venemous herps???. Are they very strict up here??????


----------



## Earthling (Apr 18, 2007)

Luke_G said:


> What is the EPA like on keepeing venemous herps???. Are they very strict up here??????


Relevancy to current discussion? score of -34.93 and descending rapidly!
Perhaps a new thread would be more appropriate Luke.:shock:


----------



## nvenm8 (Apr 18, 2007)

Earthling said:


> If people are going to keep reps without a licence perhaps an amnesty would be best. Gives them the chance to become legal if australian animals...and to register their exotics with hopefully the proviso that they dont breed. Many states have done amnesties before and it works well....not for all but it certaily assists.



No way, that is a license to go and rape the wild! Can you imagine how many snake would be collected so they could be converted legally via an amnesty.


----------



## Earthling (Apr 18, 2007)

nvenm8 said:


> No way, that is a license to go and rape the wild! Can you imagine how many snake would be collected so they could be converted legally via an amnesty.


 
Good point...I wonder if theres a way around that?
An amnesty for Exotics would work though yeah?


----------



## hazzard (Apr 18, 2007)

No, because if word got out that it was going to happen, Fed Ex would be innundated.

Yes earthing i have seen over a dozen collections of exotics. I may get criticised for not dobbing them in but i don't see it good for my health or family to do so. 

I could get you virtually anything you wanted with a phonecall if it were legal. Anything from eyelash vipers through to venemous bearded lizards.

For example a burmese python can have over 100 young in a clutch, where are all these going?


----------



## hazzard (Apr 18, 2007)

I might add that just as many herps are leaving as coming in!


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Apr 18, 2007)

Penny, I'm not sure what your point is.

Its seems that you want people to complete a test that is in actual fact just completing a care sheet. Sounds good, but as i said before there is nothing stopping people copying answers of the net, filling the answers in and then sending it off without even a attempt to properly study the animals they want.

In your last post it looks like you would like a care sheet written in a exam. Not sure what exactly it is you are pushing for! :?


----------



## hazzard (Apr 18, 2007)

I get the same feeling. A care sheet covers the most acceptable right things to do for your animals based on all of the literature and peoples experiences. 

I think you energy would be better served getting the relevant authorities to distribute comprehensive care sheets for commonly kept animals when registering a transaction. Other animals could be grouped in a care sheet such as dragons, skinks, pythons etc.


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 18, 2007)

Initially I was saying that it would be a good idea to have a basic husbandry course as a necessary step in acquiring a licence. I still think this would be the best way as nothing beats hands-on experience, but as it has come to my attention, and as this thread has evolved, I now realise that there are many people that would not be able to attend such a course, and many that would not want to.

So now I am suggesting that they create a booklet of "care sheets" for each individual family of reptiles (skinks, colubrids, pythons, dragons, etc) that is covered by the licence you are applying for. The point of the quiz is to say that you have read the book and found the answers in the quiz. The booklet can be kept as a reference.

It would be pretty hard to not learn anything while answering the questions and finding the answers.

The little bit of a ramble about the government making care booklets for all pets was just to say that "they don't do it for other animals, why would they for reptiles?" is no excuse, and there really should be easy-to-access information about all domestic pets.

-penny


----------



## Sdaji (Apr 18, 2007)

You'll find this has been discussed countless times, at great length, over the last few years. With the diversity of species people keep and the detailed and varied methods people use for each, you couldn't give out all of the necessary information in a booklet of less than several thousands pages. Many of us have spent many thousands of dollars on husbandry books - you couldn't possibly hope to give people what they need in a simple booklet, however, if you attempted to, many people would think that they had all of the information they needed and would not bother to seek any more, so giving the information out would cause more harm than good. If any information is giving out, it should be about two or three sentences along the lines of "Reptiles require specialised care and it is absolutely essential that you seek as much information as needed to give your animals everything that they need". Perhaps they could give directions to sources of information, pointing out that that list is by no means complete. Anything more would be counterproductive.


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 18, 2007)

The point of the booklet would be to promote further research and buying husbandry books.

What would you prefer, ignorant people getting a licence and harming their reptiles or ignorant people getting a licence and have basic instructions and examples given to them, and get them wanting to look further into it?

Should they decide not to continue their own research, the basics given to them are still enough for them to utilise. 

_"Perhaps they could give directions to sources of information, pointing out that that list is by no means complete."_

Throughout the book I would suggest that it was written that it was only the basics and that more research should be undertaken, with references to useful books and other resources.

-penny


----------



## learning snake man (Apr 19, 2007)

*Ok this is a good debate Hazzard had a good point epa could send out care sheets or guide line sheets every time you buy a new reptile thay know what reptile it is. A computor could send out one once for that type reptile or on epa sites have guide lines set out so their is no reason to not be doing the right thing by the reptile you own, Number (2) if you get caught with out a licence, fine people huge. as those people thumb their noses at ever one. . And you need lic for a dog as in dog rego. Or every one you buy of has to give you a fact sheet whats one more photo copy, at the end of the day it helps the reptile live a bit better if the person has no idea on how to look after it also then if breeder,s epa say reptiles should be kept by their selfs apart from breading if you get caught haveing 2 gether you can get fined or lose your licence as it seem s their is so manny difrent opinins out their, national guide lines would be a good thing for national reptiles and if you don,t have a licence i,m all for big time fines for ya, thats not kids with a skink or small lizard but people that go backyard bigtime,Dob them in and get rid of them thay are the ones that take from the wild and laugh at us cheers*


----------



## cris (Apr 19, 2007)

Consider this, all petshops have to do a course in order to get a licence to sell reptiles(in Qld), go around to a variety of petshops and you will see many of them have absolutely no idea how to look after the most easily cared for herps(in qld they can only sell things that are very easy to keep). Because they have been to a course they think they know what they are doing and are often fairly arrogant when you tell them what they are doing wrong.


----------



## Hickson (Apr 19, 2007)

Earthling said:


> and to register their exotics with hopefully the proviso that they dont breed. Many states have done amnesties before



It is a Federal law that bans exotics, so its DEH in Canberra that authorises amnesties for them. The last one was three years ago, and it was offered only because it was a legal requirement (they had just amended the EPBC Act). The exotics surrendered were all destroyed. I seriously doubt the DEH will be offering another exotics amnesty, so anyone caught with exotics won't have leg to stand on.



Hix


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 19, 2007)

cris said:


> Consider this, all petshops have to do a course in order to get a licence to sell reptiles(in Qld), go around to a variety of petshops and you will see many of them have absolutely no idea how to look after the most easily cared for herps(in qld they can only sell things that are very easy to keep). Because they have been to a course they think they know what they are doing and are often fairly arrogant when you tell them what they are doing wrong.



What??? Those people have had *training*??!?!?!?

I suppose one difference would be that petstore employees get paid to do what they do, so they assume that they have authority and that what they know is correct. 
New licencees on the other hand may or may not know anything about owning a reptile, but at least with some information given to them it is still better than *knowing nothing at all*.

Personally I would rather that someone followed one person's way of doing everything instead of not having any knowledge of what they are doing or what they should be doing. 
So what if they become arrogant? It is still _better_ than them not knowing anything and causing harm or death and having no idea about how to keep a healthy reptile.

-penny


----------



## christo (Apr 19, 2007)

SOunds like a good idea in many respects, but I don't see how keeping reptiles is any different to keeping other animals in terms of the need to understand some basic husbandry. If you needed to do a course to keep reptiles, why not the same situation for dogs, rabbits, birds or fish? 

Don't get me wrong; people should know how to keep animals that are in their care. But you can't tell me that there aren't as many (or more) people keeping dogs with improper care than there are with reptiles.


----------



## Reptilian (Apr 19, 2007)

OMG!!! This debate is STILL going???


----------



## cris (Apr 19, 2007)

Hix said:


> It is a Federal law that bans exotics, so its DEH in Canberra that authorises amnesties for them. The last one was three years ago, and it was offered only because it was a legal requirement (they had just amended the EPBC Act). The exotics surrendered were all destroyed. I seriously doubt the DEH will be offering another exotics amnesty, so anyone caught with exotics won't have leg to stand on.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix



Do you have a link to these laws?


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 20, 2007)

christo said:


> SOunds like a good idea in many respects, but I don't see how keeping reptiles is any different to keeping other animals in terms of the need to understand some basic husbandry. If you needed to do a course to keep reptiles, why not the same situation for dogs, rabbits, birds or fish?
> 
> Don't get me wrong; people should know how to keep animals that are in their care. But you can't tell me that there aren't as many (or more) people keeping dogs with improper care than there are with reptiles.



My opinion is that they should need a course for all animals. I don't believe that "they don't do it for other animals, they shouldn't need it for reptiles" is a good enough excuse. For starters you need a licence to own reptiles, unlike other animals. I don't know about other peoples' experiences but whenever I have applied for any licence or certification it has required that I undergo training and an exam. Now I am not saying that it needs to be this specific, as there are many variations of husbandry depending on the individual person, but there must be some form of standard of information that is available to give to new reptile owners to help them with their animals.

The point of the licence is to attempt to maintain the native australian populations, by preventing people taking from the wild and also preventing exotic species of reptiles being released into the wild and mixing with or destroying our native wildlife. Most other pets available on the market have been imported from somewhere. How many native Australian species of dogs are domesticated? Cats, anyone? You can't even own native rodents and mammals (I would love a bilby) except for the occasional possum or glider as far as I am aware (correct me if I am wrong, folks) and none of these domestic pets require a licence.
My point is, there IS a licence for snakes, and for good reason. New licence-owners should be given some form of instruction whether it be in a classroom or in a book, whether it is the only thing they read or if it starts their research, it is better than knowing nothing and causing harm. It will not prevent illegal activity, but that is not what I am talking about. What I am concerned about is giving information to clueless people who just received their new licence, in an attempt to give them a good start. 

-penny


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 20, 2007)

Every time someone asks "I just got a beardy, what substrate should I use?" or "What heating is best for my carpet python?" they get an enormous list of different peoples opinions and why each one is best for their needs.

Substrates, for example. The booklet can say that for beardies you can use sand, gravel, newspaper etc and say why each one is good or bad. For example, sand looks great and is easy to clean, but can get in their eyes. small gravel looks good, they can dig in it, but can sometimes be difficult to clean and if they swallow it, the gravel could cause impaction. newspaper is very easy to clean but is not aesthetically pleasing and beardies have a hard time walking on it as they can't grip it because it is smooth.

The booklet can promote experimenting with different substrates to find what is best for the reader. I think I remember reading here that someone uses shade cloth as a substrate. You can't really put that in a book (well I suppose you could) but it is a great example of experimenting to find what works best for that person and their animal.

The same goes for each topic. Mention that there are many ways of heating a snake, using a heat mat, or heat cord, and you can even use a heat lamp or ceramic heat emitter. Also cover the "heat gradient" topic so that their snake can find it's happy place. Also covering thermostats and thermometers.

As for enclosures it can go over suitable sizing according to the type of reptile that will be living in it, and have examples of setups, promoting creativity and pressing the matter of making it inescapable. Noting that they should have adequate ventilation and consist of a water bowl, a hide and something to climb on, as well as a warm and a cool section.
It can talk about putting small snakes in big enclosures, and that it is preferred to keep them in a smaller enclosure so that they feel secure. Personally I don't have a problem with putting my small snakes in larger enclosures, I just make sure I give them plenty of places to hide and things to climb on, and a couple of water bowls. This is my personal preference, and I find that as long as they have the security of many hides, they do not stress out. I think that something similar should be stated in the book, for several reasons including the fact that people buy enclosures before buying the snake, and can potentially buy a 3ft+ enclosure and then end up buying a hatchy.

I imagine it would also have a section listing some things that can go wrong with reptiles, or a No-No section. For example, don't put sticky tape in with snakes, and be careful about what you put in beardy enclosures because they like to lick everything (I have heard, I don't own one).
In this section I would state that if anything appears to be wrong with your reptile, to take it to a reptile vet. It would be nice if it came with a list of vets that can help reptiles or specialise in reptiles. Also mention important things like "don't sex your reptile yourself, as you can cause permanent damage and even death" or something to that effect.

This is just a basic example of some of the things that can be included. I would imagine the booklet would be in sections according to animal, and then sub-sections for each topic (heat, substrate, help, etc).

I am interested in other opinions.
-penny


----------



## dragons75 (Apr 20, 2007)

Booklet ? More like encyclopedia it won,t work like many others have stated why make it harder for pepole ? I know several who think applying for a license is to much hassle and one even commented it would be simpler to go bush and grab a reptile. The relevant authoritys are understaffed/underfunded already so the cost of producing such booklets would put it on the backburner straight away.I hate seeing posts and hearing horror storys from inexperenced keepers as does everyone but we all make mistakes and maybe instead of judging and chastising a newbie we should point them in the right direction and let them learn as we all have . IMO


----------



## Magpie (Apr 20, 2007)

croc_hunter_penny said:


> What??? Those people have had *training*??!?!?!?
> 
> I suppose one difference would be that petstore employees get paid to do what they do, so they assume that they have authority and that what they know is correct.
> New licencees on the other hand may or may not know anything about owning a reptile, but at least with some information given to them it is still better than *knowing nothing at all*.
> ...


 
You haven't had much to so with new licence holders have you?
New keepers knows EVERYTHING, that's why they have so many problems.


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 22, 2007)

I am a new licence holder..

Besides, new keepers know "everything" because it took them nothing to get their licence, so they assume that whatever they do is fine. If you dont let them start that mentality because before they are even given a licence they have examples of what they will need and helpful suggestions, It guides them in the right direction.

Do you have or know ofany licence that does not require some form of skills or knowledge test? If so please let me know, because I cannot think of one.

-penny


----------



## Ramsayi (Apr 22, 2007)

fishing license


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Apr 23, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> fishing license


 
:lol: 

I think your arguement is well and truely over Penny. There are too many flaws and faults in it.


----------



## christo (Apr 23, 2007)

Dog licences and TV licences (in the UK) require no training or knowledge.

The licence system is designed, I think, more for reasons of protecting wildlife from being taken from the wild. It is not primarily concerned with animal husbandry (although there are minimum keeping conditions that go along with it).


----------



## Sdaji (Apr 23, 2007)

croc_hunter_penny said:


> I am a new licence holder..
> 
> -penny



With all due respect, I think you've summed it up quite nicely there. Take some time, learn a lot, then you will have the ability to see where the needs are for you to start throwing your weight around and you'll be armed with the knowledge and experience to do it properly. You'll find that after you become more informed your opinions will change on many issues.


----------



## Kali7 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> You'll find that after you become more informed your opinions will change on many issues.



provided of course you have an open mind and a modicum of intelligence... therein lies the problem. 

doesn't matter what you do, the idiots outnumber everyone else.


----------



## Ramsayi (Apr 23, 2007)

Perhaps it should really be called a Reptile Keepers PERMIT as opposed to a license.


----------



## JasonL (Apr 23, 2007)

Kali7 said:


> proviintelligence... therein lies the problem.
> 
> ded of course you have an open mind and a modicum of doesn't matter what you do, the idiots outnumber everyone else.



and common sense ain't that common!


----------



## Sdaji (Apr 23, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> Perhaps it should really be called a Reptile Keepers PERMIT as opposed to a license.



I strongly agree, I've been saying that for over 10 years. In some cases, such as for the "higher category" animal licenses in NSW and QLD, they do treat them somewhat like licenses, but the basic "licenses" in all (or mostly all) are permits with a misleading label.


----------



## Zanejb (Apr 23, 2007)

my 2 cents

i see the problem with new license holders (we have all been new license holders) and a simple course still wont fix the problem as there are alot of variables. Lets start with the license and work our way through costs:-
Lisence (presuming its the lowest level) around $50 
purchase of an enclosure $150+ depending on the animal
then theres the animal to consider $10 - $$$$$$

this puts the costs at $200+ without food and other accessories

With all this in mind remember that its also younger kids that are after these sorts of pets (12-16 is the entry lvl age) and these kids get there info from us so it is our respossability to give them the right info. Courses cant be mandatory as its most of the time hard enough for young kids to first get permission from there parents, then fill out the paper work and then also sit a course for a few hours. BEFORE i purchased my license a fair few years back i started my reptile experiense with one reptile, a blotched blue tongue. With that i decided i wanted my license and i then decided i what i wanted and did the research and did i ask for info OF COURSE I DID!!!!! and i also purchased a heap of books and guess what i still read them.

A course IS a good idea but the government wont fund it as they will have to pay someone that is qualified to teach it and give the right facts. the best we can do is when someone sais what reptile should i get just give them some help on what books to get, lights, enclosure size and of course a good entry level reptile.


----------



## Manda1032 (Apr 23, 2007)

I work in the pet trade, I am one of few in my store that is comfortable with all aspects of the pet trade and advice. I have been working in this trade for 10 years, I have been keeping pets since I can remember. With my work and knowledge I have built a client base who comes to see me regularly because of my knowledge and lack of other knowledgable people in other stores across Townsville.
I am forever teaching people about how to look after reptiles and what they need. I have had little approved training and all of what I know comes from my own private research and knowledge. I personally think this is unacceptable. Asking my opinion, advice, third party prospective is great but asking me what you have to do instead of learning for yourself is not on. I do my best and refer people to websites, books, local herp club but nearly all never do it.
I have refused sales to many people because they know nothing or are planning to keep reptiles in appaling or inadequate housing/environments.
I agree with all that is said and a course should be COMPULSORY!!! We have it for restricted licenses why not all???
I also agree with national licensing. It will make most laws uniform, fees the same everywhere and certain states can still have their liiegal animals. It will make import/export/moving so much easier. Also it will help with other licensed animals like birds. They can all decide whether one bird is licensed all across AUS instead of one state and not the other!!!

I had my "license" for 2 years before owning a reptile.


----------



## Manda1032 (Apr 23, 2007)

Zanejb said:


> my 2 cents
> 
> i see the problem with new license holders (we have all been new license holders) and a simple course still wont fix the problem as there are alot of variables. Lets start with the license and work our way through costs:-
> Lisence (presuming its the lowest level) around $50
> ...


 
NO animal is ever cheap!!! That's what everyone should know. Puppies don't cost pennies, neither do fish. You want to do a half Bottom job you pay pennies, if your legit you pay dollars!!!
If money is an issue scour the classifides for a bargain. 
You want a mutt that has the potential to give you trouble, you go the cheap way and find the grief at the end. You want to do it the right way save your pennies, learn valuable lessons on how money doesn't grow on trees etc along the way and get what you really want at the end!

If licensing will filter out the twits along the way then so be it. If you don't have the patience and true passion to "keep" an animal, (and I mean keep it in the best accomodation with stimulation, comfort and protection) then you shouldn't be applying for a license at ALL


----------



## Sdaji (Apr 23, 2007)

Manda1032 said:


> I work in the pet trade.
> I am forever teaching people about how to look after reptiles and what they need. I have had little approved training and all of what I know comes from my own private research and knowledge. I personally think this is unacceptable. Asking my opinion, advice, third party prospective is great but asking me what you have to do instead of learning for yourself is not on. I do my best and refer people to websites, books, local herp club but nearly all never do it.
> I agree with all that is said and a course should be COMPULSORY!!! We have it for restricted licenses why not all???
> I also agree with national licensing. It will make most laws uniform, fees the same everywhere and certain states can still have their liiegal animals. It will make import/export/moving so much easier. Also it will help with other licensed animals like birds. They can all decide whether one bird is licensed all across AUS instead of one state and not the other!!!



So to get a license I am going to have to do a husbandry course for every type of reptile the license covers? Do you think that is even in the realm of being imaginably possible, even if you don't consider the fact that getting someone to run the course is utterly impossible? Even if it was possible and cost wasn't an issue and transport wasn't an issue and timing wasn't an issue (are they going to run these things every single month in every single location for every single species?), it would take thousands of hours to complete the course. Many of us are still pioneering new methods, they develop rapidly. Our game isn't hundreds of years old with tried and true methods which are universally accepted. There are some very good reasons for these courses not existing. Fortunately, the fact that they would do a lot of harm isn't a scarey thing, because they are impossible to run.

Sure, you could do this on a smaller scale (a small pamphlet, rather than a course), but as described, this is going to do far more harm than good. It really would be lovely if we could give everyone all the information they needed in one cheap and easy to read booklet, but if this was possible, people wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars and hours researching, or in many cases dedicating their lives to the ongoing process of learning and research. Giving people a little pamphlet and letting them walk off thinking they now have all they need to know would be quite irresponsible.

So, you want a nationally standardised licensing system? Well, say goodbye to your rights! Each state says yes to some things and no to others. If things are standardised, do you think they are all suddenly going to allow everything that any other state allows? No, they will not. Laws are always set on the conservative side, so if things are standardised, we'll get the strictest parts of every state's laws rolled into one giant impossible system. Being national, the state governments would not have the power to change anything, so the federal government would have to take over (that has "uh oh" written all over it, I hope I don't need to explain that to you! Do you want little Johnny and his cronies being responsible for setting out the system? No, you don't, he is an economist, not a wildlife enthusiast). With such a huge system, change would be virtually impossible as every state would have to agree (if you think things are bad now, imagine it literally being hundreds of times more difficult to get any changes through, such as adding new species, or even changing any little tiny itsy bitsy detail anywhere). Suddenly, interstate trade would become impossible, because WA doesn't allow animals to come in. They sure as heck aren't going to change their minds any time soon, so if you want it standardised, sure, everyone can export, but no one can import! Great! QLD doesn't allow private individuals to keep crocodiles... well, sorry, they aren't changing their minds, we all live under that rule now... in Victoria you can't keep Rough-scaled Pythons, several species of Knob-tailed Geckoes, the only species of Sandswimmers in captivity in any numbers, Boyd's Forest-dragons, etc etc etc, well, sorry, now no one can, because Victoria's reasons for not allowing them now stand everywhere... and sorry, change is now virtually impossible because as I indicated, individuals states have a huge amount of trouble sorting themselves out, but imagine trying to get every single state to agree!

There are very good reasons for each state having its own laws. You may or may not have noticed, but laws are different in every state on many issues, even though the concepts may be the same everywhere. Having a system which is too large just doesn't work. In a beautiful, magical, perfect world, yes, it would be nice to have a perfect system which worked flawlessly, but in the real world run by committees of real people, you really, really just don't want to try that sort of thing. Fortunately, despite being a commonly discussed concept among reptile keepers, those in power understand that this is as impossible an idea as it a bad one.


----------



## Troy 1000 (Apr 23, 2007)

I think a course would be the correct way to go, I did a small one with Do little farms and found out some stuff that I didn't know. I did n't buy for quite some time. But now I am getting a larger enclosure I was back to studying on different things before I bought, and was a asking Auz a lot of questions before I settled on a size and the what not.


----------



## cement (Apr 23, 2007)

I have to agree with Sdaji on this point. Not because i am a well respected herpetologist (i am definatly not!) but because I know how things run. If you master one thing in your life, (trade, management, martial arts whatever) you can understand other things. It comes from the experience.
If i want a Bredli, just one, not to breed, i am not going to be happy about having to do a course on geckos. I don't want to know about geckoes!
One last point. Of 100 people who do anything, there is always a % who will lean to the left and a% who will lean to the right. There will always be a % of people who fall into every shade of grey in between. You can see this just reading this thread.
If it is such an important issue to you, then you owe it to yourself to research the industry, find out the histories of our licence regimes, and do some stats etc and see how you feel then. The experience you go through to become highly informed will shape your judgement on what is best.

But that could take effort!!!


----------



## Zanejb (Apr 23, 2007)

The best thing i reckon that would also be cheap and effective would be issuing a book with every first time license purchaser. the book would have general standard housing, good for different species of herp and so on. This doesnt have to be an in depth book with history and what not just the basics to help people get started. THIS means people people have some good legit info to get started and you dont have to drive to a course, you wouldnt have to sit for hours on a weeknight or weekend and all you would need to do is read a book. and from that if you wanted to expand your knowledge go out and buy more books.

Im still on the look out for a good book even if it doubles up on stuff because even if i dont know i it im learning new things or reinforcing old things.

I think people are too hard on the beginners, as i posted before we were all beginners once.


----------



## Aslan (Apr 23, 2007)

The problem with a book, as pointed out numerous times, is that it would have to a mammoth book to cover anything close to the different husbandry techniques for different species, let alone the different techniques used by different keepers...it just isn't feasible...

Unfortunately some people will go out and by a reptile without adequate information, just as some people will buy a dog without adequate requirements met - unfortunately it happens... no doubt web forums such as these are amongst the most effective and efficient ways for people to gain knowledge relevant to themselves however only those willing to put the effort in will learn, but forcing someone to attend a course has the same problem...

...maybe an advertisement for APS should be attached to licence applications


----------



## Zanejb (Apr 23, 2007)

actually it wouldnt need to be mammoth sized, general requirements for most snakes is the same, same for most geckos and so on - we arent talking about professional breeding and all that just say housing your first reptile.
Basics:-
-an appropriate sized tank (this can be arrange by the actual size of the animal, simple maths people a 6' python wont be comfortable in a small tub)
-Heating (general heating for a snake is around 30'C daytime am i not correct?)
-feeding (5-25% of total body weight, simple) and clean water all the time.
-cleaning
-handling etc,etc

It should only take a page to cover most of these things (a page for each one should be enough), dragons, skinks and monitors also benifit from alot of the same environments as snakes. then do the same for geckos, frogs and so on wouldnt really take up alot of space in a book. IM TALKING ABOUT GENEREAL BASICS!!!! and besides a "mammoth" sized book is still more realistic than a course, am i right?


----------



## wood_nymph (Apr 23, 2007)

here here!
so many people come into my work asking about the liscence exceping there to be some kind of course in care involved in it AND THERE SHOULD BE. we pay money for what exactly? a piece of paper to say we've paid money


----------



## Ramsayi (Apr 23, 2007)

The info that first time keepers should be versed on is given when the new keepers purchase from most of the breeders that sell their excess stock.I spend hours each and every week answering just about every question imaginable to people wanting to buy for the first time or wanting to buy a species that they havent kept before.Each and every season I also refuse to sell to a few people who enquire as it becomes painfully obvious that the reptile wont recieve adequate care and most likely die.

Any breeder or shop that wont take the time to explain how to keep a reptile thats being purchased happy and healthy should be given a miss in favour of the ones who do.

Having some sort of test before a license is issued wont solve all the problems raised by the original poster as not all people can grasp the basic concept of keeping reptiles,you know you cant educate an idiot.

As I wrote earlier it shouldnt even be called a license but a permit to keep Australian native reptiles


----------



## FAY (Apr 23, 2007)

I agree woma....Garth spends so much time telling people how to look after their animals,,,gives out care sheets et etc.

Like what has been said...the department is just soo under resourced it couldn't happen!!

The old story....just because you pass a test...doesn't mean you have any common sense, it is all in the practical NOT the theory!!

I am one of those people..I wouldn't pass a test to save my life...I am certainly no idiot when it comes to looking after my charges!!


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Apr 23, 2007)

no


----------



## cement (Apr 23, 2007)

A lot of people went to a lot of trouble to come up with our system here in NSW. And most of them were hobbyists who wanted to be able to keep snakes. These guys were the originals and a lot of what we know today is because of their hard work.
They put together the best system they could , with regard to trying to keep all parties happy and the resources available.
You will always get idiots buying things they shouldn't have, and as a result some animals do suffer. It is unfortunatly a fact of life.
I would do a course if i HAD to, but I love snakes, and want the best for them so I research myself and ask silly questions here, and buy books, etc and hence I don't need to do a basic course.
Get my drift??


----------



## Zanejb (Apr 23, 2007)

i agree cement thats probable the best thing anyone could have said in this thread lol


----------



## Manda1032 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> So, you want a nationally standardised licensing system? Well, say goodbye to your rights! Each state says yes to some things and no to others. If things are standardised, do you think they are all suddenly going to allow everything that any other state allows? No, they will not.


 


Manda1032 said:


> I also agree with national licensing. It will make most laws uniform, fees the same everywhere and certain states can still have their illegal animals. It will make import/export/moving so much easier.


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Apr 23, 2007)

Manda the states will not be able to have their own illegal animals because you the laws would be _uniform._


----------



## cris (Apr 23, 2007)

all states can have illegal animals as their are no laws controlling illegal activity. I personally support a full scale national ban on illegal activity.


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 24, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> With all due respect, I think you've summed it up quite nicely there. Take some time, learn a lot, then you will have the ability to see where the needs are for you to start throwing your weight around and you'll be armed with the knowledge and experience to do it properly. You'll find that after you become more informed your opinions will change on many issues.



Throwing my weight around? 

I have learned plenty, no thanks to the licencing system. The point of this thread is that people applying for licences often don't know anything about reptiles, and it wouldn't hurt to give them some information. I don't understand how giving someone information can possibly do harm, or any more harm than what could potentially happen without giving them any information. 

As I said in my previous post (which I am pretty sure you didn't bother reading, because you didn't pick at it) the information that could be given to new licence owners can have basic information to get them started, and promote further research in books, courses, online and word of mouth so that they can make educated decisions about the care of their reptiles.

-penny


----------



## croc_hunter_penny (Apr 24, 2007)

GARTHNFAY said:


> I am one of those people..I wouldn't pass a test to save my life...I am certainly no idiot when it comes to looking after my charges!!



The test wouldn't be a previous knowledge test, where you are supposed to know everything already. it's more of a "read the book and then fill in the answers" type of test. It gives people a reason to read the booklet instead of just tossing it away, and writing key points down helps you remember them. 

The test was just an idea anyway, as are all the other suggestions that have been made in this thread.

-penny


----------



## grimbeny (Apr 24, 2007)

I think a test and a course would just be far to difficult to organise, the npws which looks after reptiles is a pretty small department. I think the requirement of buying a book etc might be a good idea.


----------



## Sdaji (Apr 24, 2007)

croc_hunter_penny said:


> Throwing my weight around?
> 
> I have learned plenty, no thanks to the licencing system. The point of this thread is that people applying for licences often don't know anything about reptiles, and it wouldn't hurt to give them some information. I don't understand how giving someone information can possibly do harm, or any more harm than what could potentially happen without giving them any information.
> 
> ...



Giving out information can often be harmful.... I'll put it into simpler terms so that you might be able to understand it.

It is not, should not and can not be the responsibility of the government to educate people about how to look after their reptiles. Governments can only do so many things. If you know anything about the way government departments run (which unfortunately you seem not to), you'll understand that this sort of thing is just not something they would be capable of, even if we ignore the fact that the departments are run by office workers, not wildlife specialists.

Okay, so why can giving out information be harmful? First of all, it might not be correct; if the government was responsible for it, you can almost guarantee any pamphlet/booklet/book/manual etc would be littered with errors. This wouldn't really be the fault of the people working in the department, it would a symptom of them having been charged with a task which was beyond them. Hopefully you can understand that misinformation is damaging.

Okay, so let's assume that against the impossible odds, the information given out is good. That won't change the fact that it is extremely limited. As I said earlier, if it was possible to put everything you need to know about keeping reptiles into a booklet, people wouldn't be spending thousands of hours and dollars learning about it. One of my friends has a large room literally filled with reptile books - hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars worth (yes, really)... and his isn't the largest collection around. Read all of those books (or as many as you can in a few days or weeks!) and you'll see that over the years methods have changed, often very quickly, and even at any given time there is great diversity in recommended methods. Here is something you seem to have missed... pay attention, it is important... if you give someone a pamphlet along the line of "This is how you keep your animals", they will assume (very incorrectly) that they have all of the information needed to keep any reptile at all, so when they see something interesting advertised, they'll quickly buy it, assuming that the magical booklet will guide them beautifully, which of course, it won't.

I doubt that anyone here is naive enough to think that the government is a good source of information on any topic, we certainly don't want to dump the responsibility of educating new keepers. If the government gives out information, and that is the first information people are given, they will assume that the government is their primary source of reptile husbandry information, and that is an impression that no one in their right mind would want to give out. Government departments don't work in the same way to private individuals or private enterprises. Anything which gets done needs to go through committees, be approved, go through all sorts of crazy hoops, have dozens of forms send out to dozens of people, each in triplicate, etc etc etc, it leads to things being done inefficiently, errors are inevitable (somewhat strangely!) and any updates or changes are extremely difficult to get through because no one wants to go through that process again.

You say you've learned plenty, no thanks to the licensing system. This is exactly as it should be for all of us. The government doesn't teach us everything we need to know about everything in life. Society functions better when some responsibility is left to each individual. In recent years (the last 10-20), there has been a growing impression that the government should take on new responsibilities which in the past would have been unthinkable. We don't want to become mindless drones following the word of the government, even if we ignore the fact that the government isn't capable of leading us very well.

I did read the previous post of yours which you assume I didn't. I didn't bother responding because the same points have been brought up by many newbies every year for the last few and responding to them again is most tedious.


As for the standardised national licensing system, as I said, the fact that it is utterly impossible to introduce is enough reason not to worry about arguing the point. It's a good thing that it's impossible, because if it somehow was introduced, we'd all be begging and pleading for things to go back to the way they were! Sometimes people just don't know what they have until they no longer have it. I won't bother addressing the topic further.


----------



## cement (Apr 24, 2007)

I have one more point, if I may.
The licence/ permit whatever you call it is not about knowledge. It is just a simple way to keep track of who's got what and where.In an attempt to maintain some control and legality about what we keep in Australia. It also tries to inform us of penalties for illegal, exotic trade.
If you want to keep herps don't learn about the species from the licence,thats not what its for, learn about them from the person,place who you buy off. Or if you like, do a course, run by people in the herp world.


----------



## Sdaji (Apr 24, 2007)

You've summed it up very nicely there, cement. I was attempting to make that point, but I think its clarity was obscured by the broad spectrum of what I was saying, along with the flood of supporting arguments 

Government departments have their place and we should let them do their jobs. Some things are best handled by the individual or by other groups.


----------



## richardsc (Apr 25, 2007)

i personally dont think it would help much,people who r in it for the right reasons will learn whats required ect and do there best for there charges,doing a pre course wont stop unknowledgable people keeping herps,just like gun licences wont stop people doing the wrong things there and so on and so on


----------

