# What Causes Slugs



## wokka (Oct 6, 2008)

Its heartbreaking when you get them.Why does it happen?


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## Gavin (Oct 6, 2008)

i think they are unfertilized eggs


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## the.badger (Oct 6, 2008)

Jeez, what the heck is that thing? I've never seen anything like that before.


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## itbites (Oct 6, 2008)

Yer I know what you mean my golden tree snake just laid 11 dud eggs!  
Totally peeved about it too...
What a shame wokka, she's stunning!


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## MatE (Oct 6, 2008)

Its a shame Warwick,but it looks like there is a few good eggs left.


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## zobo (Oct 6, 2008)

that sux, how many good eggs;slugs did you get?
My normal olive had 5 good and 4 slugs and another mate had a total clutch of slugs from his olves
jas


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## dickyknee (Oct 6, 2008)

Geez that looks painful Warwick .....bad enough to see spotted slugs let alone those guys


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## Den from Den Pythons (Oct 6, 2008)

Slugs are a strange thing. In my opinion they are not simply in-fertile eggs, you can have fully formed eggs that aren't fertile (candled showing no veins present, cut open to show no embryo). In my opinion they are under developed or 'faulty' eggs, fault goes mainly to the female....Although I am not an expert on slugs...

Everyone knows how it goes. Follicles are developed and fertilized during ovulation, if the egg isn't fertilized it is simply not fertile, not necessarily a slug...


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## wokka (Oct 6, 2008)

It may be a result of the number of eggs as 22 eggs is rather large for an olive.Maybe I am feeding too many bunnies.


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## Glen B (Oct 6, 2008)

It is very disappointing after all the waiting to find slugs. Kinda like opening empty xmas presents. Why fertile eggs die can only turn into a guessing comp. We can only be thankful for the ones that don't die.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Oct 6, 2008)

Maybe Warwick. Obese snakes can have complications....We have a few 'larger than normal' pythons that still produce full, viable clutches but we do have an obese spotted that does lay a percentage of slugs each year. Clutch size is around 24, maybe 8 slugs....She actually retains 4 slugs each season, passes them a month after laying...Painfull!

On a side note, top job with producing the eggs from that white female!


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## wokka (Oct 6, 2008)

I still ended up with an above average number of "good" eggs in the clutch but it seems such a waste to have some not make it.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Oct 6, 2008)

Just realized I haven't answered you question mate. To be honest I don't know. Obviously any obese animal can have complications reproducing. The pressure put on reproductive organs can cause havoc. We have records a female BHP that layed 3 years of full, fertile clutches, last year 2 slugs were layed (after other fertile eggs). This particular female was no heavier than she 'should be', all conditions were identical to the previous seasons. Did your albino lay last season?? If so was the clutch 'slug free'?? If enough people swing ideas/records back and forth surely a conclution can be had....Or an expert may post...

Good thread mate


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## wokka (Oct 6, 2008)

I wouldn,t say she was obese. Her peak weight was 10 kg about 4 months ago. She weighed 8kg just prior to laying.


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## Simple (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm not an expert but have spoken to a few people about this. If it is not confusing enough as it is, I have also been told it can be due to poor sperm quality, insufficent sperm to do the job and also the position of the eggs as the pass though the ova ducts. Not sure if this helps.


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## bigguy (Oct 6, 2008)

Wokka, there are no slugs in that pic. Only fertile and infertile eggs.

There are 3 groups of eggs

Fertile, good viable eggs

Infertile, eggs that were not fertilised and look nearly normal.

Slugs , ova produced by the female that had died. These are normally yellow and very small.

Infertile eggs are normally vaused by the male having a lower then normal sperm count. Next season cool him down a lot more than this year. It should help. Also, keep your males leaner then the females, as fat males also vcan have low sperm counts


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## gman78 (Oct 6, 2008)

There is a few good ones there by the looks of it.
Isn't there always one slug, normally the first egg?


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## zobo (Oct 6, 2008)

gman78 said:


> There is a few good ones there by the looks of it.
> Isn't there always one slug, normally the first egg?



NO, I have had plenty of 100% clutches in past with no slugs etc.


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## the.badger (Oct 6, 2008)

According to Dr Rock at www.sxr.com.au as stated in his first article on breeding pythons:

"Once the eggs have passed into the oviducts they are beyond the point of no return. No absorptive mechanisms have been found in oviducts. If the eggs are not successfully fertilized, they will eventually be passed as unfertilized ova, or what are commonly called slugs."

Hope this helps.


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## mungus (Oct 6, 2008)

zobo said:


> NO, I have had plenty of 100% clutches in past with no slugs etc.



Agree'd


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## Jason (Oct 6, 2008)

yer i look at it the same as bob, fertile, infertile and slugs.
i look at slugs as dead eggs, possibly due to bad sperm etc etc, it isnt uncommon for animal animal to terminate at the embryo stage if there is a genetic defect, this is often the case in humans, i believe slugs to be eggs that have possibly been fertilised and just died/terminated. unfertile eggs as said by bod can be because the male wasnt cooled long enough, or often a touch over weight, i like to keep my males relatively lean and tend to cool for about 6 months with breedings befor i bump up temps. im yet to gat any slugs or any eggs that appear infertile. thats not to say i havent lost a couple of eggs during incubation, possibly as a result of mistakes on my behalf or again an issue with the developing young.

On the plus note, you got a large clutch from an outstanding animal mate. congrats and best of lusk with them eggs!


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## moosenoose (Oct 6, 2008)

bigguy said:


> Wokka, there are no slugs in that pic. Only fertile and infertile eggs.
> 
> There are 3 groups of eggs
> 
> ...



I think you can lock this thread at that!

Stop whinging Mungus! :lol: Congrates!


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## herpkeeper (Oct 7, 2008)

I've just discovered 1 of my jungles wrapped around 9 good eggs  & 3 slugs :?


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## gman78 (Oct 7, 2008)

zobo said:


> NO, I have had plenty of 100% clutches in past with no slugs etc.



That's good news.
I've only had 2 seasons and each clutch had 2 and 3 slugs.
Hopefully i'll be seeing some slug free clutches this year.


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## wokka (Oct 7, 2008)

I notice smaller clutches seem to contain less slugs as do those produced from a larger number of matings.


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## waruikazi (Oct 7, 2008)

bigguy said:


> Infertile eggs are normally vaused by the male having a lower then normal sperm count. Next season cool him down a lot more than this year. It should help. Also, keep your males leaner then the females, as fat males also vcan have low sperm counts



It's only one animal so no real conclusions can be drawn but my first year breeding (bredli) i kept my male very lean and cooled him to 14c at night and 27 during the day for about 3 months. My female was 6.5kg i got 40 eggs, 4 slugs and 2 dippled along with several eggs that weren't fertile. Next year i kept my male lean again cooled him to the same temps but for not as long, my female was about 6kg this time 37 eggs 6 slugs, no dippled and again a few infertile. This year my female is 6kg and i wasn't going to breed them so i didn't cool them. Thinking that they wouldn't copulate i left them in the same enclosure but they have been going at it hammer and tong for longer than they ever had when they were cooled. So right now they are only getting normal day night ambient temps so about 18-32C variation. We'll see what happens.


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## wokka (Oct 7, 2008)

Infertile eggs are normally vaused by the male having a lower then normal sperm count. Next season cool him down a lot more than this year. It should help. Also, keep your males leaner then the females, as fat males also vcan have low sperm counts[/QUOTE]

The other clutch produced by that male this year had 1 slug out of 17. ( by slug I mean smaller yellow misshapen egg.)


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## Sturdy (Oct 7, 2008)

i think this thread should be a sticky it has a nice amount of information about egg production, Ive learned quite a bit just off these 2 pages


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## pythons73 (Oct 7, 2008)

Would giving the male and female a year off,make any ,if at all,difference to producing a clutch without any slugs.What if the female was a bit overweight,would she have more chance of laying more slugs than a more leaner female.By the way Wokka,congrats with the olive,i hope all goes well,cheers.


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## inthegrass (Oct 7, 2008)

does the weight of an egg indicate a potential slug, even if the egg appears to be normal?.
a recently laid clutch of six eggs had weights ranging from 49grms to 78grms.
cheers


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## waruikazi (Oct 7, 2008)

pythons73 said:


> Would giving the male and female a year off,make any ,if at all,difference to producing a clutch without any slugs.What if the female was a bit overweight,would she have more chance of laying more slugs than a more leaner female.By the way Wokka,congrats with the olive,i hope all goes well,cheers.



I've heard from a few US breeders that think there is a correlation between fatty boombah's a infertile/slug eggs.


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## cris (Oct 7, 2008)

inthegrass said:


> does the weight of an egg indicate a potential slug, even if the egg appears to be normal?.
> a recently laid clutch of six eggs had weights ranging from 49grms to 78grms.
> cheers



I dont have too much experience but i beleive slugs are always smaller, infertile eggs can look like good eggs and probably have similar mass.

Here is a pic showing 4 infertile eggs, i didnt think to take candling photos but they are easy to see when candled(use a small light placed upto the egg to see inside it).


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## JasonL (Oct 7, 2008)

the.badger said:


> Jeez, what the heck is that thing? I've never seen anything like that before.



It's called a Retirement Snake, Liasis retirehappyii.


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## wiz-fiz (Oct 7, 2008)

how do you tell wheqather eggs are fertile or infertile just by looking? or do you have to put them up to a light?


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## mungus (Oct 7, 2008)

How about twins ??
My port mac laid 13 good eggs and a couple of slugs by memory.
I had 13 contains ready to go for when they hatched etc.
Putting them in the hatchie rack I noticed 1 extra...........lol
On closer inspection I found 2 hatchies a little bit smaller than the rest - twins.
So twins and slugs in the same clutch , go figure .......


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## =bECS= (Oct 7, 2008)

JasonL said:


> It's called a Retirement Snake, Liasis retirehappyii.



hahahahaha true!


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