# Snake going crazy again



## Bl69aze (Mar 29, 2018)

Hi guys, a few months ago I made a post asking about neuro in darwin pythons.

Well she’s doing funny stuff again such as letting go then regripping my arm, trying to shove her head under her body.
And most worrying of all she wraps her body around my arm sometimes going over her neck, making me think she’s gonna choke herself.
I think I remember someone saying it sounds like normal behaviour for a young python (hatchling -6mths old), however she’s almost 16months old now and still doing it and it does worry me when I handle her, so I hold her less and less.

I don’t think it’s a cause for the vets yet.(no stargazing)

Her temps at 30-32 because she always moves her probe, and temps aren’t quite accurate, and I’m worried she might get too hot on the glass, (found out what the styrofoam is for, it’s to stop the glass getting HOT to touch, but can still get “warm” to up of 40°c how ever no burns can be caused)

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, would be grateful

Cheers 


Edit: if it means anything, she hides ALOT only coming out at night, to shed or feeding,only once have I seen her come out for water during day.

Update 2/3/18 
i found some time to ask my main supervisor about the lapping over neck. his analysis was that, that’s what snakes do and they don’t have the same sense of touch/feel that humans do, which is why you see stuff of snakes biting themselves and just chomping down etc.


----------



## Scutellatus (Mar 30, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Hi guys, a few months ago I made a post asking about neuro in darwin pythons.
> 
> Well she’s doing funny stuff again such as letting go then regripping my arm, trying to shove her head under her body.
> And most worrying of all she wraps her body around my arm sometimes going over her neck, making me think she’s gonna choke herself.
> ...


Have you still got the styrofoam in between the heatmat and the base of the enclosure? If you do all i can say is you really need to take on board what myself and other people wrote in the last thread. Styrofoam is an insulator and should not be used with a heatmat. If you have a decent thermostat the glass won't be able to get hotter than the temperature you set the thermostat to.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 30, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Have you still got the styrofoam in between the heatmat and the base of the enclosure? If you do all i can say is you really need to take on board what myself and other people wrote in the last thread. Styrofoam is an insulator and should not be used with a heatmat. If you have a decent thermostat the glass won't be able to get hotter than the temperature you set the thermostat to.


The foam was part of the tank, and she was doing it before this tank in her tub I’ve had my coastal in this tank before with 0 problems.

I’m not sure how to position the probe, some say on top of substrate, some say under substrate, some say an inch above substrate. If I put it on top of substrate then underneath gets quite a bit warmer and she tends to dig and reach the glass.

If I put probe underneath substrate, she moves it and temps go inaccurate.


----------



## Shire pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

little bit confused ?? what makes you think heatmat/temperature is causing neuro issues when handling ?? im no expert but ihave my darwins heatspot around the 33-35 mark and they are thriving. try putting your probe under the tank and setting to say 37-38 and you will get a few degrees less inside (you will have to do some testing obviously) but that way she cant move probe and you will get a steady temp ..


----------



## Scutellatus (Mar 30, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> The foam was part of the tank, and she was doing it before this tank in her tub I’ve had my coastal in this tank before with 0 problems.
> 
> I’m not sure how to position the probe, some say on top of substrate, some say under substrate, some say an inch above substrate. If I put it on top of substrate then underneath gets quite a bit warmer and she tends to dig and reach the glass.
> 
> If I put probe underneath substrate, she moves it and temps go inaccurate.


Obviously you aren't using a reptile specific tank because they don't come with foam. Removing the foam isn't going to help with the snake issues but it will make your enclosure a lot safer. The foam is just making the heatmat work harder thus increasing the risk of fire. Cut out a square, scrape off all the foam and get a new heatmat (not the old rubbish inbuilt thermostat one) that you can stick to the glass.
If you can't do that then you are obviously not very serious about the welfare of your animal.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 30, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Obviously you aren't using a reptile specific tank because they don't come with foam. Removing the foam isn't going to help with the snake issues but it will make your enclosure a lot safer. The foam is just making the heatmat work harder thus increasing the risk of fire. Cut out a square, scrape off all the foam and get a new heatmat (not the old rubbish inbuilt thermostat one) that you can stick to the glass.
> If you can't do that then you are obviously not very serious about the welfare of your animal.


It’s an URS tank. And I have a proper reptile one heat mat with an external thermostat 
[doublepost=1522365040,1522364957][/doublepost]


Shire pythons said:


> little bit confused ?? what makes you think heatmat/temperature is causing neuro issues when handling ?? im no expert but ihave my darwins heatspot around the 33-35 mark and they are thriving. try putting your probe under the tank and setting to say 37-38 and you will get a few degrees less inside (you will have to do some testing obviously) but that way she cant move probe and you will get a steady temp ..


What do you mean under the tank, the heat mat is stuck to the bottom :/

I don’t know, just trying to remove possibilities


----------



## Nero Egernia (Mar 30, 2018)

A 40°c hot spot shouldn't be much of a problem as long as the snake has ample room to get away from the heat. Sometimes my adult pythons get similar temperatures in their basking area. All that means is that they need less time to reach their preferred body temperature and then they move off somewhere cooler. Now if the ambient temperature is constantly in the high thirties then you'll run into all sorts of problems.


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

How many hours of heating in the enclosure and whats the cool end temp?


----------



## Shire pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

As in stick the probe on the edge or very close to the heatmat like on the outside of the tank . If the heatmat is stuck to the glass and the tank is on little feet stick the probe just on the edge of the mat and adjust the thermo to get desired temp if that makes sense
[doublepost=1522375927,1522375712][/doublepost]Also +1 on scrapping the foam . That is pretty much the opposite way to safely run a heatmat. Pretty sure they are designed to be stuck to the glass and have airflow under them via the use of feet on the tank itself ??


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 30, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> It’s an URS tank.
> [doublepost=1522365040,1522364957][/doublepost]
> What do you mean under the tank, the heat mat is stuck to the bottom :/
> 
> I don’t know, just trying to remove possibilities





Pauls_Pythons said:


> How many hours of heating in the enclosure and whats the cool end temp?


on an average day around 25~ She gets heating all day and night unless I turn it off on extra hot days 35+


Nero Egernia said:


> A 40°c hot spot shouldn't be much of a problem as long as the snake has ample room to get away from the heat. Sometimes my adult pythons get similar temperatures in their basking area. All that means is that they need less time to reach their preferred body temperature and then they move off somewhere cooler. Now if the ambient temperature is constantly in the high thirties then you'll run into all sorts of problems.


The only spot that gets high 30s is the glass area above the mat under the hide and substrate.
on top of the substrate is 30-32 (turning off at 32) and I’m worried of raising this as the glass temp would also raise.


So I guess it’s not the heat causing problems, so what other possibilities could it be 
[doublepost=1522376285][/doublepost]


Shire pythons said:


> As in stick the probe on the edge or very close to the heatmat like on the outside of the tank . If the heatmat is stuck to the glass and the tank is on little feet stick the probe just on the edge of the mat and adjust the thermo to get desired temp if that makes sense
> [doublepost=1522375927,1522375712][/doublepost]Also +1 on scrapping the foam . That is pretty much the opposite way to safely run a heatmat. Pretty sure they are designed to be stuck to the glass and have airflow under them via the use of feet on the tank itself ??



Again, the tank was bought new with the foam preapplied to the bottom.

There is still a Cm or 2 of airflow under the mat


----------



## Snapped (Mar 30, 2018)

Can you take a video of her when you handle her and she is doing the strange wrapping thing? Snakes can do strange things while trying to workout how to move around and hang on, mine used to get all tangled up like a pretzel when he was younger. ANyway, a video is a good idea so the more experienced people can observe whats going on.

Maybe you can post up a pic of your tank also, that would clear up any confusion.


----------



## Shire pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> on an average day around 25~ She gets heating all day and night unless I turn it off on extra hot days 35+
> 
> The only spot that gets high 30s is the glass area above the mat under the hide and substrate.
> on top of the substrate is 30-32 (turning off at 32) and I’m worried of raising this as the glass temp would also raise.
> ...


 Fair enough mate its your snake and enclosure .. you asked for advice about probe position etc and people have given it. i think my suggestion would work but its up to you . Makes me wonder why you ask for advice in the first place ?


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> She gets heating all day and night unless I turn it off on extra hot days 35+



I'm not a fan of giving animals 24hr heating after the 1st winter.
I have had issues with this before in carpets and while I know some people offer 24/7 heating for the life time of the animal I think they suffer for it. They have no natural day/night cycle, no seasons nothing. Every hour of every day is the same for an animal that relies on cycles. 
This is what I think you should focus on.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 30, 2018)

Shire pythons said:


> Fair enough mate its your snake and enclosure .. you asked for advice about probe position etc and people have given it. i think my suggestion would work but its up to you . Makes me wonder why you ask for advice in the first place ?


I appreciate the help, but the only place to put the probe would be underneath the mat, and as far as I’m aware, only the top of the mat provides heat
[doublepost=1522387042,1522386920][/doublepost]


Snapped said:


> Can you take a video of her when you handle her and she is doing the strange wrapping thing? Snakes can do strange things while trying to workout how to move around and hang on, mine used to get all tangled up like a pretzel when he was younger. ANyway, a video is a good idea so the more experienced people can observe whats going on.
> 
> Maybe you can post up a pic of your tank also, that would clear up any confusion.


Of course I can, although I won’t be home for a few days, it’s like she seems fine in her tank ( apart from hiding heaps) then you get her out and she loses all sense of snaking around. If I put her down on ground or anywhere, she doesn’t get tangled up, it’s only when she’s moving up my arm and trying to coil around.
[doublepost=1522387277][/doublepost]


Pauls_Pythons said:


> I'm not a fan of giving animals 24hr heating after the 1st winter.
> I have had issues with this before in carpets and while I know some people offer 24/7 heating for the life time of the animal I think they suffer for it. They have no natural day/night cycle, no seasons nothing. Every hour of every day is the same for an animal that relies on cycles.
> This is what I think you should focus on.


I can try doing this, what hours do you give? And how would I go about setting my thermostat to utilise it’s timer feature, I set it to 3-12 but then I realised it wasn’t working because it’s in the heater side of things, I’d have to somehow macgyver the thermostat plug into 2 sockets (temp + timer)


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

Put a separate timer on the power inlet. I never use the timer options on the thermostats.
For now 12 hours on 12 hours off would be a good place to start.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 30, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Put a separate timer on the power inlet. I never use the timer options on the thermostats.
> For now 12 hours on 12 hours off would be a good place to start.


So you mean like plug the thermostat into a timer which plugs into the wall? Is that safe? I think we’ve been having electrical problems in the house, seems to be power outage every night, the wall that was connected to diamonds mat seems to be constantly outputting power even if it’s turned off, so we need to call an electrician or find out what’s causing the fault.



Here’s a video of my thermostat if it means anything


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

Yes its safe. The timer controls the power supply to the thermostat.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 30, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Yes its safe. The timer controls the power supply to the thermostat.


Any recommended brands?


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 30, 2018)

Cheap ones from Bunnings. About $5 each


----------



## dragonlover1 (Mar 30, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> I'm not a fan of giving animals 24hr heating after the 1st winter.
> I have had issues with this before in carpets and while I know some people offer 24/7 heating for the life time of the animal I think they suffer for it. They have no natural day/night cycle, no seasons nothing. Every hour of every day is the same for an animal that relies on cycles.
> This is what I think you should focus on.


all animals should be subject to natural rythms,ie what happens outside should mimic what happens inside unless you have specific reasons to alter nature


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 31, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Cheap ones from Bunnings. About $5 each


Thanks for the help, I’ll get one ASAP, I’m also planning on getting a “proper” enclosure for all my snakes getting bays for them all 4high with a secret coming when I get it all set up.

For now I’m going to get a timer and run it during sunny hours, about 6-6 and off over night, and slowly decrease it to like 11-4~ At 33-35° on top of substrate. Going to also get a hide with a base so she can’t dig during her nights

Does this sound about right


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 31, 2018)

Yup


----------



## Scutellatus (Mar 31, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Thanks for the help, I’ll get one ASAP, I’m also planning on getting a “proper” enclosure for all my snakes getting bays for them all 4high with a secret coming when I get it all set up.
> 
> For now I’m going to get a timer and run it during sunny hours, about 6-6 and off over night, and slowly decrease it to like 11-4~ At 33-35° on top of substrate. Going to also get a hide with a base so she can’t dig during her nights
> 
> Does this sound about right


All except the 33-35 on top of substrate. That will make it 35-37 at the bottom of the substrate.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 31, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> All except the 33-35 on top of substrate. That will make it 35-37 at the bottom of the substrate.


So I should go based on temp of glass? (Making glass temps 32~) which would make top 30~


----------



## Scutellatus (Mar 31, 2018)

That is what I would do. That way it can bury itself if it wants more heat.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 31, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> That is what I would do. That way it can bury itself if it wants more heat.


Is there anything safe I can use to stick the probe to bottom of glass? I know sticky tape is a no no, but I’d also rather not use glue and be unable to move it


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 31, 2018)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Suction-Packet-suction-sucker-suckers/dp/B005KQE352

I'm going to take a dig now.........
You often appear to have all the answers but you are asking some very basic questions some of which have brought your own set up into question.


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 31, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Suction-Packet-suction-sucker-suckers/dp/B005KQE352
> 
> I'm going to take a dig now.........
> You often appear to have all the answers but you are asking some very basic questions some of which have brought your own set up into question.


I have one of those, didn’t think they’d be good on direct heat.

Take all the digs you want, I’m still learning just don’t want to get something wrong and waste money.

I had my coastal in this tank for 3-4 years before I started getting into reptiles, he’s healthy, I didn’t pay much attention to heat at all. Ever since I’ve started my internship with reptile team I’ve been more mindful... if I wanted I suppose I could set it up th way he was set up. Prob would cause some arguments on here as his heat was up to 35°c 24/7 during summer, during winter. Again, he’s 100% fine, why don’t I just set up like he was? Because I have learnt that was not the right way to tackle things and can cause problems so I don’t have the knowledge I should have got from him etc

For all I know, I’m just being paranoid with her


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 31, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Prob would cause some arguments on here as his heat was up to 35°c 24/7 during summer, during winter.



You do want you want/think is correct. If you question your own methods as potentially being incorrect don't throw them out there as though its all gospel.


----------



## dragonlover1 (Mar 31, 2018)

I just re-read this part of a previous reply


Bl69aze said:


> I appreciate the help, but the only place to put the probe would be underneath the mat, and as far as I’m aware, only the top of the mat provides heat
> [doublepost=1522387042,1522386920][/doublepost]
> .


a heat mat puts out heat in both directions,this is why they supply those little feet for air flow ! So you don't burn your desk or whatever your tank sits on.
But it also has me thinking whether you have the heat mat inside or underneath the tank? It is meant to be underneath the glass to warm the floor.If it is inside it could possibly burn your snake.This could be part of your problem


----------



## Bl69aze (Mar 31, 2018)

dragonlover1 said:


> I just re-read this part of a previous reply
> 
> a heat mat puts out heat in both directions,this is why they supply those little feet for air flow ! So you don't burn your desk or whatever your tank sits on.
> But it also has me thinking whether you have the heat mat inside or underneath the tank? It is meant to be underneath the glass to warm the floor.If it is inside it could possibly burn your snake.This could be part of your problem


it is on the outside, but i didnt know it output heat in both directions, i thought the space was to create airflow so it didnt suffocate and put more energy then it needs to

so i tried getting her out about 45minutes ago.. to take a video.. and as it always happens.. she acted completely normal @Snapped ,ill try again tomorrow during my easter break


----------



## Scutellatus (Mar 31, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Is there anything safe I can use to stick the probe to bottom of glass? I know sticky tape is a no no, but I’d also rather not use glue and be unable to move it


A cable tidy with the tape removed and fixed in place with aquarium safe glass silicon.


----------



## Rowdy71 (Apr 1, 2018)

Hi
I used to keep marine fish and the foam on the bottom of the glass tank is to absorb the weight of the water without cracking the glass. There should be no need for the foam in a reptile setup, I'd get rid of it. 
As you said though i don't think it's causing you snake problems. 
I'm a newby but if be visiting the vet
Cheers and good luck


----------



## Bl69aze (Apr 1, 2018)

Rowdy71 said:


> Hi
> I used to keep marine fish and the foam on the bottom of the glass tank is to absorb the weight of the water without cracking the glass. There should be no need for the foam in a reptile setup, I'd get rid of it.
> As you said though i don't think it's causing you snake problems.
> I'm a newby but if be visiting the vet
> Cheers and good luck


That’s nice to know for future fish tanks, however this tank isn’t a fish tank and is a proper “reptile enclosure” I think I said by reptile one, but is in fact URS: code 02. 14D


----------



## GBWhite (Apr 1, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Ever since I’ve started my internship with reptile team I’ve been more mindful...



???

What reptile team is that? Surely if they have a background in reptile husbandry and really know what they were on about that they'd be able to help you out.


----------



## Bl69aze (Apr 1, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> ???
> 
> What reptile team is that? Surely if they have a background in reptile husbandry and really know what they were on about that they'd be able to help you out.


They can only suggest as much as you guys. Easier to ask here then keep going back and forth with them. Trying something then going back to ask etc, easier to get lots of potential fixes here.

I’m sure they would be able to tell me what the go is but not what to fix.


----------



## GBWhite (Apr 1, 2018)

Yeah, I'm still a little confused. First up you didn't answer my question regarding who they were and secondly I'd have thought that if you were an "intern" you'd at least have phone contact or be able to get one of them to come and look at your setup and offer a means to try and fix up the situation. Anyway, you've been offered some pretty good advise on here (especially about limiting exposure to heat) so I hope you work it out in the end.


----------



## Bl69aze (Apr 1, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> Yeah, I'm still a little confused. First up you didn't answer my question regarding who they were and secondly I'd have thought that if you were an "intern" you'd at least have phone contact or be able to get one of them to come and look at your setup and offer a means to try and fix up the situation. Anyway, you've been offered some pretty good advise on here (especially about limiting exposure to heat) so I hope you work it out in the end.


Sorry, I just don’t think it’s right to tell you who they are.

I do have contact, but again, lot easier to ask here and get a variety of “possibilities” rather than just one persons abilities.

And I think it was Jamie who said you guys would have a world more of knowledge compared to them.


----------



## dragonlover1 (Apr 1, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Sorry, I just don’t think it’s right to tell you who they are.
> 
> I do have contact, but again, lot easier to ask here and get a variety of “possibilities” rather than just one persons abilities.
> 
> And I think it was Jamie who said you guys would have a world more of knowledge compared to them.


There are very many smart and experienced people here who have many many years of experience between them,I am still sucking up information from the brains trust 
I've only been back into reptiles for the last 15 years or so, so I am a babe in the woods compared to these guys


----------



## Scutellatus (Apr 1, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Sorry, I just don’t think it’s right to tell you who they are.
> 
> I do have contact, but again, lot easier to ask here and get a variety of “possibilities” rather than just one persons abilities.
> 
> And I think it was Jamie who said you guys would have a world more of knowledge compared to them.


This just makes me and I am sure most others very curious as to who they are. If there isnt anything underhanded I see no reason why you would think it "isn't right" to tell us.

In regard to not asking them for advice, could it be that you don't want them to see that you have limited experience in this situation?
If that is the case you would be better off being honest with them so you can gain the experience first hand from them, rather than second or third hand on a forum.


----------



## Bl69aze (Apr 1, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> This just makes me and I am sure most others very curious as to who they are. If there isnt anything underhanded I see no reason why you would think it "isn't right" to tell us.
> 
> In regard to not asking them for advice, could it be that you don't want them to see that you have limited experience in this situation?
> If that is the case you would be better off being honest with them so you can gain the experience first hand from them, rather second or third hand on a forum.


They know my limited experience being fresh to the game when I started. And it’s more for My privacy and theirs that I don’t share.


----------



## dragonlover1 (Apr 1, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> They know my limited experience being fresh to the game when I started. And it’s more for My privacy and theirs that I don’t share.


What is more important? your privacy or your scaly friends better existence ? I get the privacy thing,I am a very private person( I don't even like washing my truck in the front yard) but my reptiles come first. And our animals must always come first because they can't speak for themselves.


----------



## Bl69aze (Apr 1, 2018)

dragonlover1 said:


> What is more important? your privacy or your scaly friends better existence ? I get the privacy thing,I am a very private person but my reptiles come first. And our animals must always come first because they can't speak for themselves.


which is why i've asked here.

i just had her out again and she seemed fine... i think i really am just being paranoid and shes just a shy snake


----------



## dragonlover1 (Apr 1, 2018)

sometimes more regular handling is all it takes,last night I played with all my sons snakes ( I couldn't handle any of mine because Saturday is my feed day) but all of his are cool as cucumbers because they are regular handlers,he has 7 pythons across different genera so it's not like they are all the same,They have different personalities as well as different traits


----------



## vampstorso (Apr 1, 2018)

Everything else aside:


I think not doxxing yourself is probably smart.

While a lot of people aren't super concerned with their identities being known on a board like this because it is sort of "local" and it's a small world in the reptile industry in Aus so it can feel impossible not to be identified...
Well...people are crazy...some privacy allows a bit of a limit to the crazies reach.


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Apr 2, 2018)

vampstorso said:


> While a lot of people aren't super concerned with their identities being known on a board like this because it is sort of "local" and it's a small world in the reptile industry in Aus so it can feel impossible not to be identified...
> Well...people are crazy...some privacy allows a bit of a limit to the crazies reach.



Unfortunately hiding in the shadows in this hobby is highly limited & difficult to do. In at least 2 states you have to 'advertise' your licence details to advertise animals for sale. In all states the exchanging of licence details at point of sale is also a problem. You can't hide your identity unless you never buy or sell any animals, to which end you don't actually enter the hobby.
While I understand Bl69aze I feel its a pointless effort to try and hide your online footprint. If someone wants to find you they can & will. For the vast majority of us this will never be a problem as we don't have anything worthy of attention or we don't upset people enough for them to invest the time & effort required to find us.


----------



## Bl69aze (Apr 2, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Unfortunately hiding in the shadows in this hobby is highly limited & difficult to do. In at least 2 states you have to 'advertise' your licence details to advertise animals for sale. In all states the exchanging of licence details at point of sale is also a problem. You can't hide your identity unless you never buy or sell any animals, to which end you don't actually enter the hobby.
> While I understand Bl69aze I feel its a pointless effort to try and hide your online footprint. If someone wants to find you they can & will. For the vast majority of us this will never be a problem as we don't have anything worthy of attention or we don't upset people enough for them to invest the time & effort required to find us.


That’s fair for you to say about yourself, but I know a few online idiots who would get a kick out of ruining people’s lives.

@GBWhite i found some time to ask my main supervisor about the lapping over neck. his analysis was that, that’s what snakes do and they don’t have the same sense of touch/feel that humans do, which is why you see stuff of snakes biting themselves and just chomping down etc.

Turns out I was just paranoid


----------

