# Licence breaches result in $3,000 fine



## DEC (Nov 1, 2011)

*Glenn Innes man to pay almost $3,000 for reptile licence breaches*

View the press release at: Reptile keeper charged - Local News - News - General - Glen Innes Examiner

An experienced reptile keeper will have to pay almost $3,000 in fines and court costs after being sentenced in Glen Innes Local Court last week over 6 offences relating to the keeping and trading of native reptiles. 

[name deleted] pleaded guilty to all charges including 3 offences of importing and exporting dangerously venomous reptiles without a permit; 2 offences of failing to keep an accurate record of fauna acquired and disposed of under his licence; and 1 offence of failing to keep his Record Book at the premises where his reptile collection was housed.

[name deleted] is licensed under the National Parks and Wildlife Act to keep dangerously venomous reptiles, and is required by his licence to keep detailed records of all reptiles acquired and disposed of in an Animal Keeper’s Record Book. Licensees are only permitted to engage in interstate trade of native fauna where they have obtained an import/export permit for the particular transaction from the Office of Environment and Heritage. 

The reptiles involved in the offences included common and northern death adders, spotted black snakes and speckled brown snakes, some of the most lethal snakes in the world. 

The offences were uncovered after a search warrant was executed on [name deleted] residence by OEH investigators and National Parks & Wildlife rangers.

In convicting [name deleted] of the charges, Magistrate Richardson stated, “There is no doubt that these are serious offences which warrant a fine. 

“It is important that this fine is sufficient to deter other fauna keepers from committing similar offences”, he said.

Office of Environment and Heritage Chief Executive Lisa Corbyn said the fauna licensing system was in place to protect both native animals as well as the public, particularly in the case of dangerously venomous snakes.

“The fauna licensing system is designed to protect native fauna against poaching as well as making sure that captive-bred animals are only kept by people with the necessary skill and experience. 

“OEH views record-keeping breaches as serious offences that undermine these objectives, and the outcome of these matters shows that this view is supported by the courts,” she said.


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## Jay84 (Nov 1, 2011)

I didn't think we were allowed to name and shame on this site????


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## Colin (Nov 1, 2011)

I just googled this and although it may be a DEC media release I cant see it in any newspaper links so have removed the persons name.


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## AM Pythons (Nov 1, 2011)

post needs to be removed... shame on DEC for how they handled Wayne & Leanne's case of getting there 'stolen' reptiles back off there son...


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## jedi_339 (Nov 1, 2011)

I can't help feeling this is a bit of a joke compared to the runaround the DEC gave Jewelz and Jungleman this month and last....................:s do you need to delete mr. last name Colin?


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## jamgo (Nov 1, 2011)

They forgot to mention complementary car searches as well.


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## Jay84 (Nov 1, 2011)

I think the only one they are shaming are themselves. Oh they love making themselves look popular dont they 

Well done for convicting someone for slack paperwork........ but others like the cases above who deserve it as AM Pythons has said?? bravo!!!!!


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## abnrmal91 (Nov 1, 2011)

DEC go jump you useless waste of time. We only abide by you ridiculous rules as we want to keep our animals. You as a group are definitely one of the biggest wastes of tax payer money. You come on here parading that you have fined someone for not keeping records properly yet do nothing for weeks when someone steals reptiles, keeps them off licence and treats them inhumanly. Good work guys hope you proud of your self.


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## saximus (Nov 1, 2011)

This just seems like a fear mongering attempt. Make an example out of someone who falls a little behind on their paperwork then post about it on herp forums just to remind everyone who is boss. Well done


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## Waterrat (Nov 1, 2011)

The DEC is a disgrace to NSW just like the DECC is a disgrace to WA. When will the Ministers and other pollies wake up and give these departments severe shake up. Why can things be so easy in Qld, NT and SA and so hideously difficult in NSW and WA?


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## PythonLegs (Nov 1, 2011)

Haha- DEC, funny how you were on a leave of absence while everyone talked about what a horrendous job you do. Piping up with this gibberish now is too little too late.


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## Jay84 (Nov 1, 2011)

What reaction are the DEC looking for with this story???

Maybe they should be fined for not following the rules of this site for naming and shaming?!?!?!

I am currently purchasing some reptiles from NSW and have to wait AGES for the seller to get the export permits back...... why can't you put as much time into processing paperwork that you do into issuing ridiculous fines for lapse paperwork?!?! 

Great work guys!


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## GeckPhotographer (Nov 1, 2011)

I thought it was called OEH now, it hasn't been DEC for years went through a whole DECC then DECCW, I might be wrong about what it is now with the rapidity they change names, but I'm pretty sure it's OEH. (Office of Environment and Heritage).


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## tsbjd (Nov 1, 2011)

Always good to see our taxes at work - good at getting names in paper, even if the facts were wrong. After the other fiasco of Jewelz and Jungleman now this......Who can say "JOB JUSTIFICATION"!

Didn't they hand out free cavity searches as well jamgo, or did they cost extra?

I can also name four people that will have warrant searches on them now (including myself), better make sure my paperwork is up to the nanosecond complete, the others are interstate, so you guys are safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Colin (Nov 1, 2011)

jedi_339 said:


> do you need to delete mr. last name Colin?



ooops missed that one but I thnk I got them all now..


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## abnrmal91 (Nov 1, 2011)

It doesn't matter what they call it. Yes it is the OEH. Remember a pig in a hat is still a pig, just because it may look slightly different its still the same smelly pig.


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## Jay84 (Nov 1, 2011)

tsbjd said:


> Always good to see our taxes at work - good at getting names in paper, even if the facts were wrong. After the other fiasco of Jewelz and Jungleman now this......Who can say "JOB JUSTIFICATION"!
> 
> Didn't they hand out free cavity searches as well jamgo, or did they cost extra?
> 
> I can also name four people that will have warrant searches on them now (including myself), better make sure my paperwork is up to the nanosecond complete, the others are interstate, so you guys are safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



My reptiles and paperwork are squeaky clean....... wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction of being able to name me on a forum or write about me in the paper!

All this does is drive more and more people to go 'underground' and keep animals without a license.


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## -Katana- (Nov 1, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> DEC go jump you useless waste of time. We only abide by you ridiculous rules as we want to keep our animals. You as a group are definitely one of the biggest wastes of tax payer money. You come on here parading that you have fined someone for not keeping records properly yet do nothing for weeks when someone steals reptiles, keeps them off licence and treats them inhumanly. Good work guys hope you proud of your self.



Quoted for truth!

I wonder if some stout soul has taken a screen capture of the opening post and lodges a complaint with the Ombudsman about this rather shameless and blatant attempt to intimidate the recreational reptile keepers of NSW.

Obviously they have time to engage in this kind of activity rather than the job that they are actually paid for.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 1, 2011)

Surely with the amount of exotics, poaching and smuggled reptiles about, they have better things to do then nit pick over paperwork???


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## saximus (Nov 1, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> Surely with the amount of exotics, poaching and smuggled reptiles about, they have better things to do then nit pick over paperwork???


Paperwork breaches are easy to catch and give visual displays or "results". They can then promote that they are catching the wrong-doers and justify their jobs to their bosses. 
I'm generally not a government/political basher but this organisation just seems like the perfect example of a bunch of bureaucrats more concerned with insignificant, instant, reportable results rather than improving the hobby/trade and giving themselves a better name in the long run


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## abnrmal91 (Nov 1, 2011)

Whilst we are on the topic of licencing/paperwork. Why do we need to have a licence to keep domestic pets, 99.99% of the snakes we keep are so removed from wild it not funny. It seems ridiculous that we need to jump through hoops just to keep useless people in pointless jobs. Its not hard to keep/sell reptiles off licence. It is much easier then dealing with OEH. Just wish I had thought of it before getting my licence.


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## jamgo (Nov 1, 2011)

This was a result from a raid which was conducted by 4 employees and two detectives and at least a 6 month long investigation,although each offence was clearly written in my book minus import/export number.This is a good result considering the amount of raids conducted that day and the hundreds of man hours that went into this investigation.
P.s Don't do your paperwork and get a complementary car search everytime you travel.


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## Jay84 (Nov 1, 2011)

jamgo said:


> This was a result from a raid which was conducted by 4 employees and two detectives and at least a 6 month long investigation,although each offence was clearly written in my book minus import/export number.This is a good result considering the amount of raids conducted that day and the hundreds of man hours that went into this investigation.
> P.s Don't do your paperwork and get a complementary car search everytime you travel.



Wow, it took 6 people to look at a log book?


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## Colin (Nov 1, 2011)

something intersting I heard from a friend recently.. "Keep a receipt book with the buyers name, postal address and AKL number, date & what was sold. give a copy to buyers"

This is what a mate of mine was told by the DECC who pinged him for some minor record book omission that he hadn't written up at the time  but had scribbled down on a sheet of paper inside the book.. They said if you have a receipt book with the above information even if your tardy with your record book the DECC cant touch you for omissions or failure to immediately write up your book.. 

not sure of the accuracy of this? does anyone know? but it might pay to write out a receipt at the time of sale just in case the entry doesn't go into the record book until later.


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## SamNabz (Nov 1, 2011)

DEC said:


> [deleted]



Lmfao, after all the input in this thread, you decide the best thing to do is promote your news article..?

Wake up to yourself.


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## jamgo (Nov 1, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Wow, it took 6 people to look at a log book?


Nah was unable to produce my book at time of raid, but a few days later.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 1, 2011)

Nice work governmental body. You've just taken one more giant leap towards driving keepers underground with your gestapo bullshit. Pathetic.


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## Skelhorn (Nov 1, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> Surely with the amount of exotics, poaching and smuggled reptiles about, they have better things to do then nit pick over paperwork???



That is soo true. They waste time on little things like this and yet there is actual poaching and smuggling going on. God I hate my Tax $$$ going to waste.


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## mungus (Nov 1, 2011)

What log book ?
still not got mine back...............
got a letter saying to do it on line the other day.
just gets better...........


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## -Katana- (Nov 1, 2011)

Good gods this fancy is WAY overdue for it's own recognized national association that can combat this brand of bullsh**. This way we can stand together to fight for a common set of laws, nationwide. At the moment we are sitting ducks for every *brown shirt* petty government pencil pusher looking for a quick promotion.


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## Wally (Nov 1, 2011)

Colin said:


> something intersting I heard from a friend recently.. "Keep a receipt book with the buyers name, postal address and AKL number, date & what was sold. give a copy to buyers"
> 
> This is what a mate of mine was told by the DECC who pinged him for some minor record book omission that he hadn't written up at the time  but had scribbled down on a sheet of paper inside the book.. They said if you have a receipt book with the above information even if your tardy with your record book the DECC cant touch you for omissions or failure to immediately write up your book..
> 
> not sure of the accuracy of this? does anyone know? but it might pay to write out a receipt at the time of sale just in case the entry doesn't go into the record book until later.




I've been doing this with sales for awhile now.


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## PythonLegs (Nov 1, 2011)

PM sent OP. Enjoy


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## Jay84 (Nov 1, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> PM sent OP. Enjoy



Oh please post your PM for us all to enjoy!!!!


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## SamNabz (Nov 1, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Oh please post your PM for us all to enjoy!!!!



+1


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## GeckoJosh (Nov 1, 2011)

Why are they publicising this guys business?, surely the $3000 fine was harsh enough without them needing to do this.


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## Colin (Nov 1, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Good gods this fancy is WAY overdue for it's own recognized national association that can combat this brand of bullsh**. This way we can stand together to fight for a common set of laws, nationwide. At the moment we are sitting ducks for every *brown shirt* petty government pencil pusher looking for a quick promotion.



there is a NRKA group already formed and from my understanding it just needs some tweaking, a bank account and website before it goes public..


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## euphorion (Nov 1, 2011)

SHAME ON YOU DEC. You lot are a joke and need to pull your finger out, listen to what we, the people who pay so that your job can exist, are telling you!



Snake_Whisperer said:


> Nice work governmental body. You've just taken one more giant leap towards driving keepers underground with your gestapo bullshit. Pathetic.



*giggle*


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## veenarm (Nov 1, 2011)

Colin said:


> I just googled this and although it may be a DEC media release I cant see it in any newspaper links so have removed the persons name.



He put a news paper link in his post...
[deleted]


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## SamNabz (Nov 1, 2011)

Did your licence get suspended jamgo? There's no mention of it in the infamous DECC/DECCW/DEC/OEH article


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## Waterrat (Nov 1, 2011)

You might have been in the wrong this time, but the pathetic bureaucrats are in the wrong all the time.
Every NSW licenced reptile keeper should send their record books back to them with the message "we don't recognize you as our governing body - get your hands off our pets and look after wildlife instead".


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## jamgo (Nov 1, 2011)

SamNabz said:


> Did your licence get suspended jamgo? There's no mention of it in the infamous DECC/DECCW/DEC/OEH article


my animals where place under a seizure in situ notice and was told they where now property of .......... but that was lifted, sofar I still have my licence.


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## Colin (Nov 1, 2011)

veenarm said:


> He put a news paper link in his post...
> [deleted]



yes Im well aware of that veenarm but it wasnt there this morning.


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## SamNabz (Nov 1, 2011)

jamgo said:


> my animals where place under a seizure in situ notice and was told they where now property of .......... but that was lifted, sofar I still have my licence.



Cheers for the reply mate...god they're useless


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## MyBrownEyedGirl (Nov 1, 2011)

Yet another example of how obsolete the "Authorities" are in this hobby. These animals are pets...never to be used in any sort of conservation effort, and as such makes these sort of exercises totally pointless. 

It seems to me the only crime here is that the Authorities never received their $30 blood money for the import/export. The animals were legally held, and sent to another licensed keeper. This was also recorded in your fauna book. With the service we get off these parasites, $30 is grossly overpriced anyway.

Its time for these bloodsuckers to leave the hobby alone and concentrate their time and money (or should I say OUR money) into real efforts that contribute to conservation.


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## Waterrat (Nov 1, 2011)

So, the good old Magistrate Richardson stated, “There is no doubt that these are serious offences which warrant a fine. 

There is an intrinsic problem with Magistrate's Courts. My dear friend, a barrister told me once; "if you ever find yourself in a spot of bother, pray that you don't end up in front of a Magistrate. District or Supreme Courts are OK because they are presided by judges". Magistrates are not necessarily intelligent people, they are often appointed for political or other reasons and they're more than often incompetent in their role.

How can such petty misconduct as not having paperwork in order be a serious offence Your Honor Richardson?


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## gillsy (Nov 1, 2011)

I wouldn't be suprised if everyone on this site was guilty of lapse paperwork at some point or another, why were these people targeted... because they had vens someone dobbed them who had a grudge... there sounds like there is more to this story then being reported.

Saying that, it's a hell of a lot easier now it's electronic. It saved me the other day when I did a trade in the car park.. Police pulled us over and wanted to see paperwork etc. I luckily had my iPad there to show them the login etc.


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## Waterrat (Nov 1, 2011)

gisllsy, consider editing you post before you become another easy target for the b*&%a%ds. You can only make transactions from the place the reptiles are kept and registered.


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## abnrmal91 (Nov 1, 2011)

I think the online record may just give them more ammunition. As we are meant to record the transaction as soon as possible. I am sure they will be a to see when the information was added. What happens if you don't add the transaction for 2-3 days can we then be breaching their stupid rules. I really hate them. They are hopeless


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## Nighthawk (Nov 1, 2011)

After the original post and all the input that followed I have only this to add:

DEC if you're reading this; *slow claps* bra-_vo_ ...  ... idiots.


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## MyBrownEyedGirl (Nov 1, 2011)

gillsy said:


> someone dobbed them who had a grudge... there sounds like there is more to this story then being reported.



Dobbed isnt the right word. Some grub fed them a heap of rubbish about various people to try and save his own skin. The gullible investigators swallowed it all and consequently some unfortunate people were "visited". After a stack of wasted man power and tax payers money, they came up empty handed. To save face they then nitpicked on minor paperwork mistakes. 

It smacks of incompetency on their part, but its what we've come to expect from them.


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## ramzee86 (Nov 1, 2011)

Speaking of lousy paperwork.... What about the time i first applied for a licence and had to wait about 10 weeks, even after numerous calls....
or wait wait, what about the time i applied for the import permit and it took about 6 weeks before i got one...

Putting all my details onto a computer should take about 5 minutes, not 10 weeks.

But no thats fine, your the DEC therefore are allowed to make your own rules, no worries.


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## gillsy (Nov 1, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> gisllsy, consider editing you post before you become another easy target for the b*&%a%ds. You can only make transactions from the place the reptiles are kept and registered.



NSW they can leave your premise to trade, expos or vets. It comes under trade Waterrat. HOw are you suppose to do the transaction from where they are kept if they are interestate.


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## Waterrat (Nov 1, 2011)

I don't know the details gillsy, there was a thread on that here some time ago and I believe the general understanding was that the "car park deals" were illegal unless you have a permit to take the animal(s) to that particular car park. I am just going by what I read here. ..... Probably shouldn't take it too seriously.. lol
I can say with utmost certainty that if I get caught with a snake at Mac's car park here in Qld, even with a Movement Advise in my hand, I end up in court.


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## Troy K. (Nov 1, 2011)

Colin said:


> there is a NRKA group already formed and from my understanding it just needs some tweaking, a bank account and website before it goes public..



I don't think that this NRKA is the answer colin. I arranged a cheque for $2000 for them over two years ago to help get things started. If after two years they are still waiting to open bank accounts and build a web site and such, then IMO they are not the right people for the job. I do agree that we need an Australian wide body, but the NRKA isn't that body, to much talk and no action from those guys.


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## Mr.James (Nov 1, 2011)

Just wanted to say..I agree with all of the above comments. Licencing in NSW is just ridiculous..Fined 3000 for paperwork..? Mate DEC need to be fined for all their stuff ups! Believe me almost everything they touch they bugger up! & we are expected to just put up? 
I support any group that are committed to making them change their ways.


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## C.Bayo (Nov 1, 2011)

reptile book 4 month late getting to me last year i was fined for being 2 month out $250 but lets not kid our selves some people have been dealing in wild caught reptiles and say they bred them for years , then want our sympathy when Decc do there thing Not saying this is the case here , just saying from what i have herd and know personally of some people , its wide spread i know of 5 people two from Vic and three from NSW that have packed up and moved to QLD because they were under the DECC radar all with venomous reptiles and some exotics. good by i say , most will hate this post but you cant get around the truth


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## baxtor (Nov 1, 2011)

reptilious said:


> Dobbed isnt the right word. Some grub fed them a heap of rubbish about various people to try and save his own skin. The gullible investigators swallowed it all and consequently some unfortunate people were "visited". After a stack of wasted man power and tax payers money, they came up empty handed. To save face they then nitpicked on minor paperwork mistakes.
> 
> It smacks of incompetency on their part, but its what we've come to expect from them.



I would like to add that there was a flow on effect extending across several state borders. One can only imagine the cost of all the operations involved.


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## zulu (Nov 1, 2011)

Good old DEC LOL you cant carry on commercial activities in NSW LOL cant advertise reptiles for sale etc but its all happening anyway. Make an example out of a few little guys and ignore the obvious large ones.


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## mysnakesau (Nov 1, 2011)

I tend to stay out of political threads. I don't understand all the techincal crap anyway. But OMG it is so LOUD in here. I can just imagine the uproar from you lot if you were all in the same room. I imagine the room would be so noisy of yelling, abuse, protesting, and the pollies still don't give a rats.

Ok, I'm leaving now before I get abused for the crap coming out of my "mouth" lol


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## C.Bayo (Nov 1, 2011)

it say 5 buddy fixed it straight away , why do members always nit pic over small details . the reason why you have to say what is what is so they can use it against you , you as a keeper have to show what you have and what is in your book so they co-inside , it called self entrapment .



thexbluexfairy said:


> Dear DEC,
> Can you please send me out my record book i returned last year and have repeatedly called you about so as you dont fine me $3300 the next time you show up at my door, if you do happen to show up at my door again can you please send an investigator that knows what a Green python and a lace monitor is to check my collection as i found that a bit pointless having to tell you what everything was, if its you that keeps opening my mail everytime i get a parcel sent from a herp supplies shop can you please stop that too and when i cross the boarder and you have the police search our car can you please ask them to do it in the shade this time.
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> ...











bugger looks like your on there radar with car checks and mail checks better worry about your self and not my maths


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## dihsmaj (Nov 1, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> The DEC is a disgrace to NSW just like the DECC is a disgrace to WA. When will the Ministers and other pollies wake up and give these departments severe shake up. Why can things be so easy in Qld, NT and SA and so hideously difficult in NSW and WA?


You're forgetting Vic.


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## MyBrownEyedGirl (Nov 1, 2011)

Hahaha.....C.Bayo....another of DECC's sly accounts surely. No one could be that naive. If you are for real, your a dreamer. Its people like you who are so fearful of these worms that you defend them, and in the process actually help feed their continuing bullying tactics by trying to justify their petty and pointless behaviour. 

Obey and defend your masters C.Bayo and hope they never hassle you like all the other law abiding reptile keepers they look down on.


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## PythonLegs (Nov 1, 2011)

That's it guys, we've had our 'official' cameo. See you next time you get something done, DEC. Scuse me if I don't hold my breath.


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## bowdnboy (Nov 1, 2011)

Please ignore my ignorance for I have only access to the information supplied here and in the news article. BUT...a plea of guilty is a plea ofguilty. why isnt the book at home, why werent the permits acquired???

Yes I agree, only minor matters, and $3000 does seem excessive. I hope a conviction wasnt recorded.

Please dont flame me as it seems I'm the only one looking at it from the other side (obviously without knowing the whole situation), but I would have thought these trivial matters would have been reasonably easy to avoid by just making sure the basics are done correctly.

saying that.....Ihavnt had to deal with DEC NSW or Queensland, and so I'm not aware of the obvious fustrations with this department that are out there, , however have had dealings with SA and they were OK.

Time to get check the paperwork and book I suppose to make doubly sure from now on.


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## Jason (Nov 1, 2011)

So would I for example also get in trouble for not keeping an up to date record book even though after 5 phone calls and two emails the DEC still HAVE NOT sent me a paper record book as I've frequently requested? I've never found anyone or anything so difficult and painful to deal with!
I have so many scraps of paper that transactions are written on that I wouldn't even no where to begin when I one day, eventually, hopefully but unlikely get a record book again.


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## saximus (Nov 1, 2011)

You are fairly correct Bowdnboy. If the person was following the rules he never would have gotten in trouble. I think the bigger issue that people take exception with is that a) there are bigger issues that should be getting targeted over minor paperwork slipups and b) what was their motivation for posting this man's personal details on the internet?
Considering the typical bureaucratic speed with which anything gets done for those of us who pay a decent fee for the privilege of keeping native wildlife, this just seems hypocritical and unjust.


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## JS974 (Nov 1, 2011)

I don't get why people are complaining that they haven't received paper books when they clearly have computers and access to the internet, can someone let me know why you'd want a paper book over doing it electronically, is there a benefit here Im missing?


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## bowdnboy (Nov 1, 2011)

yep, couldnt agree more saximus.

Unfortunately in this case for that gentleman, Its a fortunate lesson for the rest of us, we now know were we stand I suppose in relation to this sort of thing.

I'll be making doubly sure everythings correct.

It does seem a bit odd that if what I'm hearing is correct and NSW DEC take forever to even send out your logbook, that they would be so willing and quick to post this in the manner it was posted in the first place.


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## AM Pythons (Nov 2, 2011)

i have a e-book account i cant access, 6 different passwords & 15 emails back n forth with them & i still cant access it, waiting for my paper book aswell...


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## Colin (Nov 2, 2011)

AM Pythons said:


> i have a e-book account i cant access, 6 different passwords & 15 emails back n forth with them & i still cant access it, waiting for my paper book aswell...



I use the e-book but also like to keep an excel (2010) spreadsheet thats formatted similar to the old DECC book. you can add columns etc and keep an accurate record on your computer as well as a copy on a USB memory stick. 

I've attached a basic excel spreadsheet if its of any use to you.


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## FAY (Nov 2, 2011)

I have to take my hat off to jamgo (if I had one that is).He is a big enough person to admit that he did the wrong thing. Very few would do that and I have total respect for him.


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## Colin (Nov 2, 2011)

FAY said:


> I have to take my hat off to jamgo (if I had one that is).He is a big enough person to admit that he did the wrong thing. Very few would do that and I have total respect for him.



I agree Fay.. but in what appears on face value to be a paperwork violation $3000 seems an extraordinary high fine. I dont know the full facts of the siuation but in the spirit of co-operation and friendliness I would have thought a warning and at the most a slap on the wrist fine would have been more appropriate. 

I'd also like to see The DECC (and other state equivalents) run maybe on a weekend a free seminar to new keepers (and older ones that may be interested) on basic reptile husbandry including housing feeding handling etc by employing licenced snake handlers in each state such as neville burns, tony harrison etc etc to give them. maybe a talk from wires about wildlife and the problems faced in the environment, a basic talk on hygene and diseases by a vet & also a talk from the DECC on filling out the reptile books, rules and regulations etc 

to run such a program on a regular basis may be difficult but if it was videotaped and given out as a free DVD to new keepers and other interested keepers so everyone is on the same page and aware of responsibilities and have some intructions to be a responsible keeper it would be a great move in my opinion.. 

giving someone a reptile licence after they pay the fee but with no or little information seems a little inappropriate to me and Im sure theres a better way. It would be a good initiative in my view by the DECC to show they care about reptiles and want us to enjoy our hobby appropriately and start to build some co-operation between keepers and government departments instead of the "them Vs us" mentality that seems to exist on both sides. we pay a considerable amount in licence fees import export fees etc so it would be great to see the department giving keepers a little more assistance and something back that helps everyone. just a thought anyway but would like to see the DEC comment on this idea. cheers


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## Kurto (Nov 2, 2011)

Shame on the DECC for bringing this matter on to a public forum. Further more, shame on the individual at the DECC for posting this with the person's name throughout. I realise that convictions are a public matter, But what possible purpose does this really serve? Or is this another case of "We're the government, do as we say or feel the wrath of a public servant"

I completely agree with Colin's above post. A little more information directed at keepers new and old about the paper trail expected by the DECC would be great. The new eRecords is a great system, but how hard is it to make a simple Screen Cast for YouTube on how to use the system...?

Oh, hold on... better not ask a public servant to go that little bit extra...


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## Vegez (Nov 2, 2011)

Another waste of taxpayer dollars. They have obviously posted this to try and prove they do more than sit in front of their computers playing games. Where is the conservation here? Busting a bloke who contributes more to the science than the whole of DEC put together. No mention in this article of the DEC mining deal that will destroy inland western NSW habitats.

Lisa Corbyn MUST be a wildlife expert, considering the position she holds. I wonder what actual contributions she has made? I've done some looking and the short answer is NONE. 

DEC you are a joke!


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## Colin (Nov 2, 2011)

Vegez said:


> No mention in this article of the DEC mining deal that will destroy inland western NSW habitats.



Vegez is it possible for you to start a new thread with some links and information on this mining situation please? I don't watch much news but would be interested to know more of this situation. thanks


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## Vegez (Nov 2, 2011)

No problems Colin, on it now.


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 2, 2011)

Pretty useless. I organised my license weeks ago, sent an email to licensing and they were kind enough to send me my license number via email(after I explained that I had a seller waiting who was getting impatient so they knew I was going to purchase animals straight away with it) saying that my paperwork would be in the mail within a few days, well that was weeks ago now and I have two snakes and some lizards in my ownership and license details sitting here waiting to be entered but I can't actually fill anything out because I have no record book to fill in and no log in details to do it online...


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## jamgo (Nov 2, 2011)

I think some may have missed the point, its not about fines and guilty or not its about what you are subjected to before and after !
My five year old had to sit in the gutter on a road side in mid 30 degree heat on the way back from a camping trip because police where acting on intelligence given to them.And if you think its only guilty people who are subjected to things like this you are sadly mistaken.


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## Vegez (Nov 2, 2011)

Totally agree Jamgo. Very degrading having these "people" sifting through all your personal stuff with little to no justification. Their treatment of any bystanders (people in your house, but not license holders), leaves a lot to be desired. My wife was furious that all her personal items were handled (she has nothing to do with wildlife).
These "officers" need to remember, that we are all human beings. Just because we have a wildlife license dose not give them the right to foresake our right to privacy.


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## camcamcam (Nov 2, 2011)

Wait, so this DEC fella, is from department of environment and conservation, and him (they) are making this post to what, brag? Someone please tell me if on the right page here.


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## -Katana- (Nov 2, 2011)

camcamcam said:


> Wait, so this DEC fella, is from department of environment and conservation, and him (they) are making this post to what, brag? Someone please tell me if on the right page here.



That's pretty much the jist of it.


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## Waterrat (Nov 2, 2011)

post a link to this and the other thread "where is the conservation" to the DEC Director and Minister.


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## camcamcam (Nov 2, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> That's pretty much the jist of it.



Oh, good.
In that case:



Snake_Whisperer said:


> Nice work governmental body. You've just taken one more giant leap towards driving keepers underground with your gestapo bullshit. Pathetic.



Summed it up well tbh. Pretty speechless on those charges. The DEC just brought shame to themselves. Not to mention the very unprofessional act of posting this in the first place, with his name present.


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## Sutto82 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cheers for the spread sheet Colin, might keep a paper trail to go along with my online records.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 2, 2011)

I only just read this tonight and I'm just sitting here shaking my head in disbelief... all I can do now is laugh.


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## richii (Nov 3, 2011)

Colin said:


> I use the e-book but also like to keep an excel (2010) spreadsheet thats formatted similar to the old DECC book. you can add columns etc and keep an accurate record on your computer as well as a copy on a USB memory stick.



Something that might be worth considering is keeping such a log in a cloud service such as Google Docs, or at least synced to DropBox (or SkyDrive, et al). That way it's available to you everywhere, and automatically backed up.


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## Colin (Nov 3, 2011)

richii said:


> Something that might be worth considering is keeping such a log in a cloud service such as Google Docs, or at least synced to DropBox (or SkyDrive, et al). That way it's available to you everywhere, and automatically backed up.



thats a thought and good idea. personally I wouldn't have much faith in the security of google or hotmail skydrive etc.. If your USB memory stick is on your keyring its usually always available to you and many USB keys have security programs on the drive so you need a password to access the file and maybe another password to open the excel spreadsheet.


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## SamNabz (Nov 3, 2011)

Troy K. said:


> I don't think that this NRKA is the answer colin. I arranged a cheque for $2000 for them over two years ago to help get things started. If after two years they are still waiting to open bank accounts and build a web site and such, then IMO they are not the right people for the job. I do agree that we need an Australian wide body, but the NRKA isn't that body, to much talk and no action from those guys.



If a group like the NRKA or similar can be beneficial to the hobby and influence decisions made/put forward, then what would it take to form such a group?

Where do we start? Who will lead? What can be promised?..

I understand that it takes time and money to put this sort of group together, which I’m sure a majority of us keepers, will be more than happy to put forward *if* it would definitely make a difference. But what else?

Someone also mentioned having a website or similar to create awareness and show people that such a group is out there. I’m willing to design a website free of charge to get the ball rolling; along with banners/flyers/mail outs etc. to get the word out.

Would be good to get some ideas flowing so we can make an idea like this, a reality - so feel free to add something or anything really..


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 3, 2011)

SamNabz
Yours is the most decent positive suggestion in this whole thread. Thank you
Cheers
Sandee


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## Waterrat (Nov 3, 2011)

Sam and Sandee, the biggest problem any group is going to have is a solid financial back up. To shake up government bodies such as DEC means consultation with a barrister, mountain of legal correspondence, etc.. 
Everybody here and elsewhere will say "I pay for my membership" but when it comes to actually pulling out the valet things may slow down a bit.
Also Sam, no one can guarantee to make a "definite difference" and a lot of people will be skeptical about such movement and also about the people in the driver's seat. Politics and personal animosities amongst herpers are not rare.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 3, 2011)

Maybe we need young people with fresh minds to set something up and maintain it in a positive manner.

The young Herpetologists of today don't need skeptics and personal indifferences from years gone by to flourish, Sam has made an amazing offer please don't dampen his enthusiam

Go for it Sam
Cheers
Sandee


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## waruikazi (Nov 3, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Politics and personal animosities amongst herpers are not rare.



Worse than that. Personal gripes and jealousies are rife in this hobby.


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## browny (Nov 3, 2011)

Troy K. said:


> I don't think that this NRKA is the answer colin. I arranged a cheque for $2000 for them over two years ago to help get things started. If after two years they are still waiting to open bank accounts and build a web site and such, then IMO they are not the right people for the job. I do agree that we need an Australian wide body, but the NRKA isn't that body, to much talk and no action from those guys.



so who can we get together to get this all going? It's past the point of being needed surely people on here have the knowledge at hand to make this happen since the government are so freakin incapable, seriously think this needs to be organized...


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## Waterrat (Nov 3, 2011)

Wild~Touch said:


> Maybe we need young people with fresh minds to set something up and maintain it in a positive manner.
> 
> The young Herpetologists of today don't need skeptics and personal indifferences from years gone by to flourish, Sam has made an amazing offer please don't dampen his enthusiam
> 
> ...



I have a positive manner Sandee but I haven't got 200K or so to kick off this game. I will be a loyal supporter if something is put together.


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## SamNabz (Nov 3, 2011)

Wild~Touch said:


> The young Herpetologists of today don't need skeptics and personal indifferences from years gone by to flourish, Sam has made an amazing offer please don't dampen his enthusiam
> 
> Go for it Sam
> Cheers
> Sandee



Lol thanks Sandee, but I don't feel that what Michael has said is dampening my enthusiasm; in fact I agree with what he has posted as he is speaking from a realistic angle.

However, the main reason I wrote what I did was to generate ideas, as I'm sure a lot of keepers are fed up by the way things are being 'run' at the moment.

Any/all ideas are welcome - positive or negative.


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## Waterrat (Nov 3, 2011)

Sam, it would be worth staring a new thread.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 3, 2011)

You're correct Sam by keeping an open mind things will start to flow 

Another angle is "If each and every one of us were responsible for our own selves there would be no need for an Association to babysit us"


Keep it going Sam

Cheers
Sandee


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## Waterrat (Nov 3, 2011)

I don't understand Sandee, aren't we all responsible for our selves? I thought the proposed idea was to create a united voice with some powers to push against the bureaucrats that are trying to make our hobby miserable.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 3, 2011)

Apparently we are not all responsible for ourselves....look at the responses on this thread.....most are waiting for someone to do something (?)

How can "the powers that be" know what we are about if we all whinge and bitch on forums and no one puts pen to paper and explains how we would like things changed

I admit we all need expert guidance and our concerns should be presented in a polite respectful manner

Cheers
Sandee


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## Waterrat (Nov 3, 2011)

It also depends on the magnitude of what things we want changed and how. Some will be happy to see small changes in their own State / Territory, others are looking for fundamental changes across the nation.
For example, we aren't happy about the import / export permits, the time they take and the money they cost. Most of the wildlife agencies are breaking the law pertaining to _free interstate trade_. They know it, we know it but to make any changes requires consultations with a constitutional barrister (can you imagine what their fees are like?) and then a Supreme Court action. We are talking huge money here but that's what needs to be done - start at the top, deliver a few solid punches to soften them up and then take them bit by bit. Be assured that such action will create a lot of interest and support from the politicians and media.

So, the question is - who will put up the money?


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## SamNabz (Nov 3, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Sam, it would be worth staring a new thread.





Waterrat said:


> It also depends on the magnitude of what things we want changed and how. Some will be happy to see small changes in their own State / Territory, others are looking for fundamental changes across the nation.
> For example, we aren't happy about the import / export permits, the time they take and the money they cost. Most of the wildlife agencies are breaking the law pertaining to _free interstate trade_. They know it, we know it but to make any changes requires consultations with a constitutional barrister (can you imagine what their fees are like?) and then a Supreme Court action. We are talking huge money here but that's what needs to be done - start at the top, deliver a few solid punches to soften them up and then take them bit by bit. Be assured that such action will create a lot of interest and support from the politicians and media.
> 
> So, the question is - who will put up the money?



http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...deas-wanted-forming-australia-reptile-173288/


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## D3pro (Nov 3, 2011)

How come DEC can get warrants that easily? Even the police need substantial evidence before invading someones home. This seems like a major breach of peoples rights.


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 3, 2011)

Geeze OP aren't ya glad you started this thread


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 3, 2011)

So, the question is - who will put up the money? 

My guess is the people with the most to gain from this group representing Australian Reptile Keepers

Maybe if we organised the "Biggest Reptile Show in Australia" we could use the profits...by golly gosh there's enough expertise among us


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## Waterrat (Nov 3, 2011)

Wild~Touch said:


> So, the question is - who will put up the money?
> 
> My guess is the people with the most to gain from this group representing Australian Reptile Keepers
> 
> Maybe if we organised the "Biggest Reptile Show in Australia" we could use the profits...by golly gosh there's enough expertise among us




..... they probably wouldn't give us permit to do that. lol Sorry for being negative.

In the application we could write:_ purpose of the Biggest Australian Reptile Show:_ to gather enough strength to screw you.


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## jamgo (Nov 3, 2011)

D3pro said:


> How come DEC can get warrants that easily? Even the police need substantial evidence before invading someones home. This seems like a major breach of peoples rights.


 I could be wrong but I think it goes , they get someone doing something wrong then that someone talks crap to escape the trouble they are in.... then somehow this crap is transformed into credible evidence which is then used to apply for warrant along with the no returns submitted routine.... then a clause 11 is place over the warrant to protect the identity of the crap talker.


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## Waterrat (Nov 3, 2011)

Any JP can sign a search warrant. Many JPs are lazy and couldn't be bothered to ask the cops / rangers for details.


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## darwin_freak (Nov 3, 2011)

and this is why so many people are goin underground.... why give the dec money when they do nothing but piss in the wind


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## jamgo (Nov 5, 2011)

Perhaps a cheaper option with some pubisity would be a sign petition that native animal keepersaustralia wide will forth go the payment of any fees next year until a review into the behaviour, taxpayer expense and the nescessity of these government agencies and the review of the licence systems in some states.
Although an orangisation is need it will take years and thousands of dollars to gain any gound and how do we know it would be taken seriously when the advisory group was not.And it would be the aim of these agencies to discredit such an organisation.

Wow not even your a delusional fool jamgo !!
I suppose it is much easier to dream and talk of something that will more then likely never happen, no offence intended to anyone as I to like to dream and talk.It is because of this in action and being so divided that we would never be taken seriously and will remain a target and blame for these agencies.In the meantime some of these people have contribute so much to this hobby and to science it is ashame that these actions by these agencies may force them to throw in the towel and walk away.


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