# Phew. That was SCARY



## snakeluvver (Oct 26, 2010)

Well today my mum got bitten by a snake. The neighbor killed it (shame I know, but if it hadn't been killed they wouldnt have known what snake it was and my mum would have all kinds of tests), so she got rushed to hospital, thinking the snake was a brown snake, then they got there, looked at the snake and it was..... a yellow faced whip snake  TOTALLY harmless. All that worry for nothing. Ah well. And before anyone tells me they're venomous, she had a test and there is no venom in her system. Its been 6 hours since the bite, no symptoms whatsoever.


----------



## Fuscus (Oct 26, 2010)

Normally the doctors ignore any snakes brought in and use what is called a venom detection kit to work out the appropriate treatment. It requires a swap o the bite site takes about 10 minutes. Killing the snake is soo unnecessary.


----------



## Nathan_T (Oct 26, 2010)

> Normally the doctors ignore any snakes brought in and use what is called a venom detection kit to work out the appropriate treatment. It requires a swap o the bite site takes about 10 minutes. Killing the snake is soo unnecessary.



The word normally in the first sentence contradicts the last. If one of my family got bitten by a brown snake and I thought killing it might stand even a remote chance of helping, I'd do the same. Glad to hear she's doing well snakeluvver


----------



## snakeluvver (Oct 26, 2010)

Yup she was in hospital for 10 mins. Got a test, no venom. But I think knowing what the snake looks like IS necessary, because my mum thought it was a brown snake, and if she told them that they'd have gone crazy with antivenom and stuff. So are Yellow Faced Whip Snakes venomous? Because they didnt find ANY venom in her system at all.


----------



## jordo (Oct 26, 2010)

snakeluvver said:


> Yup she was in hospital for 10 mins. Got a test, no venom. But I think knowing what the snake looks like IS necessary, because my mum thought it was a brown snake, and if she told them that they'd have gone crazy with antivenom and stuff. So are Yellow Faced Whip Snakes venomous? Because they didnt find ANY venom in her system at all.


 
They are venomous but generally not fatal. 

Many people can have just as bad a reaction to anti-venom as they would from the actual snake venom so it is administered as a last resort. They don't just test for venom and give you a few doses of the stuff straight away, it's only used if you start to go down hill.


----------



## Fuscus (Oct 26, 2010)

snakeluvver said:


> Yup she was in hospital for 10 mins. Got a test, no venom. But I think knowing what the snake looks like IS necessary, because my mum thought it was a brown snake, and if she told them that they'd have gone crazy with antivenom and stuff. So are Yellow Faced Whip Snakes venomous? Because they didnt find ANY venom in her system at all.


 
read this CSL Antivenom Handbook - Snake Venom Detection Kit then tell me if the above quote sounds informed


----------



## snakeluvver (Oct 26, 2010)

jordo said:


> They are venomous but generally not fatal.
> 
> Many people can have just as bad a reaction to anti-venom as they would from the actual snake venom so it is administered as a last resort. They don't just test for venom and give you a few doses of the stuff it's only used if you start to go down hill.


 well im sure that after 6 hours she would be feeling ill if she was envenomated? are they rear fanged?


----------



## snakeluvver (Oct 26, 2010)

Fuscus said:


> read this CSL Antivenom Handbook - Snake Venom Detection Kit then tell me if the above quote sounds informed


 they did a swab AND a blood test


----------



## Eddie2257 (Oct 26, 2010)

nar iv got two and there not rear fanged they can bite and it blody hurts its like a REALY bad bee sting.


----------



## -Matt- (Oct 26, 2010)

snakeluvver said:


> well im sure that after 6 hours she would be feeling ill if she was envenomated? are they rear fanged?



There is such a thing as a dry bite. They are an elapid so they are front fanged. How small was this Yellow-Face? 
I have been bitten by a captive one that I had....wasn't the most pleasant pain ever that for sure.


----------



## Firepac (Oct 26, 2010)

Snake Venom Detection Kits are general used to test swabs taken from the skin around the bite site, or from a piece of bandage also from around the bite site. This does NOT indicate that a person has been envenomated and has venom in their system, merely if venom is present in the swab which is why the pressure bandages are removed slowly and the patient monitored to see if systemic symptoms ensue.
Neither does it indicate what species a person has been bitten by rather which of immunotype the snake belongs to and therefore which antivenom is the correct one to use IF the patient becomes symptomatic.

It should also be noted that a large majority of snake bites are dry bites with no venom being released.

It is not necessary to kill the species or have it identified as it is not really relevant, what is important is to determine which is the correct antivenom to use for any particular bite, which is the purpose of the SVDK.


----------



## jordo (Oct 26, 2010)

snakeluvver said:


> well im sure that after 6 hours she would be feeling ill if she was envenomated? are they rear fanged?


 
No they're front fanged. Snakes can control whether they inject venom or not... No symptoms probably means she wasn't envenomated.


----------



## Nathan_T (Oct 26, 2010)

Fuscus said:


> read this CSL Antivenom Handbook - Snake Venom Detection Kit then tell me if the above quote sounds informed


Sounds perfectly informed to me. Especially in this specific instance. I note in the footnotes:



> 2. Some other species of venomous Australian land snakes, not known to cause medically significant envenoming, may occasionally give a positive SVDK result. Notable examples of this phenomenon are the whip snakes.


Thank god they didn't rely on your method

Also, the presence of controls as well as the language used would be enough for anyone who has an inkling of statistical test design to know that there is the chance the test can be incorrect. There are no measures for either reliability or validity and thus I would be hesitant to trust that test. While that isn't exactly a research paper, rather than evidence your point I'm more convinced that snakeluvver's neighbour acted correctly having read that article.

Why did I somehow predict the thread would go this way?


----------



## Wookie (Oct 26, 2010)

Fuscus said:


> Normally the doctors ignore any snakes brought in and use what is called a venom detection kit to work out the appropriate treatment. It requires a swap o the bite site takes about 10 minutes. Killing the snake is soo unnecessary.


 
I definitely agree with you but it also depends on the situation. If you lived 15 minutes drive from hospital, took 10 mins to get admitted and then a further 10 minutes for the test thats over half an hour from the time of bite. Not totally sure of how long it takes for the body to show systemic effects but I know it is a relatively small time-frame. Also, being a mother she might be older and more susceptible to rapid onset of adverse effects.


----------



## Firepac (Oct 26, 2010)

snakeluvver said:


> because my mum thought it was a brown snake, and if she told them that they'd have gone crazy with antivenom and stuff.



No they wouldn't. They would have waited to see IF she became symptomatic then administered whatever antivenom was indicated by the results of the SVDK. No symptoms - No antivenom.

Medical Treatment of snakebite


Its hard enough for knowledgable people here to identify some snakes, and you want a doctor who has no snake experience to identify a snake by a chart on the hospital wall and administer treatment based on that?


----------



## snakeluvver (Oct 26, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> There is such a thing as a dry bite. They are an elapid so they are front fanged. How small was this Yellow-Face?
> I have been bitten by a captive one that I had....wasn't the most pleasant pain ever that for sure.


 Tiny, about 40cm long


----------



## percey39 (Oct 26, 2010)

Also would you ever rely on a doctor giving a accurate ID, some cant even tell that you have a shattered knee cap!!! As has been said they do a swab then wait to see the results and go from there. Anti venom is a last resort!


----------



## BJC-787 (Oct 27, 2010)

i think if i took a snake into the hospital i would have to treat myself as all the nurses would have left the room.

by law the hospital has to do the vdk to cover themselves from law suits and things, it doesn't even matter if it was a zoo keeper that went in and said it was a tiger snake, they still have to do the vdk before they can do anything.


----------



## Ramsayi (Oct 27, 2010)

Firepac said:


> No they wouldn't. They would have waited to see IF she became symptomatic then administered whatever antivenom was indicated by the results of the SVDK. No symptoms - No antivenom.
> 
> Medical Treatment of snakebite
> 
> ...


 
This^^^^ 

I need to ask what were the circumstances of her being bitten?


----------



## pythons73 (Oct 27, 2010)

Fuscus said:


> Normally the doctors ignore any snakes brought in and use what is called a venom detection kit to work out the appropriate treatment. It requires a swap o the bite site takes about 10 minutes. Killing the snake is soo unnecessary.



I got bitten by a red belly and i told them that at the hospital,long story short they did a venom detection kit,which came back as Tiger snake,which apparently is the same as red belly anyhow...


----------



## Tsubakai (Oct 27, 2010)

Maybe when I have more patience I'll go back through this thread and address all the misconceptions stated so far but, frankly, I can't be bothered at the moment. The one thing I can't let pass is the fact that killing the snake does *NO* good whatsoever except potentially give us two patients to deal with. 

I am a doctor who has specialised in Intensive Care so I think this means I can speak with some authority on the topic so, if anyone reads this thread and are not sure what to do - DO NOT ATTEMPT TO KILL THE SNAKE. Apply appropriate first aid measures and call an ambulance.

Honestly, I could write pages on the idiots who have been bitten trying to catch/kill the snake but even worse are those who bring in a live snake then have it escape in the hospital putting countless people at risk.

Let me know if I haven't made myself clear so I can try to explain it clearer if necessary.


----------



## Fuscus (Oct 27, 2010)

Nathan_T said:


> ...Thank god they didn't rely on your method...


So - explain how not relying on "My" method changed the outcome ?


----------



## Wild~Touch (Oct 27, 2010)

Tsubakai said:


> Maybe when I have more patience I'll go back through this thread and address all the misconceptions stated so far but, frankly, I can't be bothered at the moment. The one thing I can't let pass is the fact that killing the snake does *NO* good whatsoever except potentially give us two patients to deal with.
> 
> I am a doctor who has specialised in Intensive Care so I think this means I can speak with some authority on the topic so, if anyone reads this thread and are not sure what to do - DO NOT ATTEMPT TO KILL THE SNAKE. Apply appropriate first aid measures and call an ambulance.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you ... may commonsense prevail
Cheers
Sandee


----------



## waruikazi (Oct 27, 2010)

I've looked several times to no avail to find statistics on how snake bites have occurred, about all that i can find is the stats of keepers vs. non-keepers and total numbers.

Do you have access to these stats that could be made public? Statistics like bites caused by trying to catch/kill/stepped on etc etc?

Has anyone else here been in for snake bite and not had a VDK administered? I have, it was a little concerning lol.



Tsubakai said:


> Maybe when I have more patience I'll go back through this thread and address all the misconceptions stated so far but, frankly, I can't be bothered at the moment. The one thing I can't let pass is the fact that killing the snake does *NO* good whatsoever except potentially give us two patients to deal with.
> 
> I am a doctor who has specialised in Intensive Care so I think this means I can speak with some authority on the topic so, if anyone reads this thread and are not sure what to do - DO NOT ATTEMPT TO KILL THE SNAKE. Apply appropriate first aid measures and call an ambulance.
> 
> ...


----------



## moosenoose (Oct 27, 2010)

I've always enjoyed the "bringing the snake in for ID" line. Who's going to ID it? The Doctor? The Nurse? Maybe the janitor? God helpthe victim if that's the case! :lol: .....VDK's! Simple, fast, effective and removes the guesswork!


----------



## Wild~Touch (Oct 27, 2010)

Gordo
Have a look at www.WHC clinical toxinology resources or Dr.Bryan Frys www.venondoc.com
Heaps of interesting stuff therein
Cheers
Sandee


----------



## redbellybite (Oct 27, 2010)

My Husband was bitten back this year in MARCH ...he was bitten on the thumb and stuck his thumb in his mouth (first reaction) so the venom was not able to be detected from the scrape ,but the urine/blood tests showed exactly what he had been bitten by ,THEY DO THIS BEFORE GIVING ANY ANTI VEN ...it was confirmed to be an eastern brown and he had a full blown hot as pumped up toxic bite ...BUT THE SNAKE WASNT KILLED ...poor thing had to be euthed as it had a severe injury ,which I euth'd it myself,but DOCTORS will tell you they are NO SNAKE ID EXPERT so bringing in a dead snake is USELESS and totally unnessary and totally DANGEROUS you are putting yourself at risk of getting bitten too!!!..I knew by looking at the snake ,but Im a snake catcher ,what had bitten my husband ,and after the tests were done they knew too ... INVENOMATION DOESNT ALWAYS OCCUR ,,,even with highly venomous snakes such as the eastern brown ,you can get DRY BITES ...the hospital will keep you in under observation to make sure all is well ...FIRST AID IS WHAT IS NEEDED TO BE CONCERNTRATED ON AFTER A SNAKE BITE OR EVEN A SUSPECTED SNAKE BITE NOT GO OUT AND KILL THE SNAKE ....


----------



## Jay84 (Oct 27, 2010)

Tsubakai said:


> Maybe when I have more patience I'll go back through this thread and address all the misconceptions stated so far but, frankly, I can't be bothered at the moment. The one thing I can't let pass is the fact that killing the snake does *NO* good whatsoever except potentially give us two patients to deal with.
> 
> I am a doctor who has specialised in Intensive Care so I think this means I can speak with some authority on the topic so, if anyone reads this thread and are not sure what to do - DO NOT ATTEMPT TO KILL THE SNAKE. Apply appropriate first aid measures and call an ambulance.
> 
> ...


 


redbellybite said:


> My Husband was bitten back this year in MARCH ...he was bitten on the thumb and stuck his thumb in his mouth (first reaction) so the venom was not able to be detected from the scrape ,but the urine/blood tests showed exactly what he had been bitten by ,THEY DO THIS BEFORE GIVING ANY ANTI VEN ...it was confirmed to be an eastern brown and he had a full blown hot as pumped up toxic bite ...BUT THE SNAKE WASNT KILLED ...poor thing had to be euthed as it had a severe injury ,which I euth'd it myself,but DOCTORS will tell you they are NO SNAKE ID EXPERT so bringing in a dead snake is USELESS and totally unnessary and totally DANGEROUS you are putting yourself at risk of getting bitten too!!!..I knew by looking at the snake ,but Im a snake catcher ,what had bitten my husband ,and after the tests were done they knew too ... INVENOMATION DOESNT ALWAYS OCCUR ,,,even with highly venomous snakes such as the eastern brown ,you can get DRY BITES ...the hospital will keep you in under observation to make sure all is well ...FIRST AID IS WHAT IS NEEDED TO BE CONCERNTRATED ON AFTER A SNAKE BITE OR EVEN A SUSPECTED SNAKE BITE NOT GO OUT AND KILL THE SNAKE ....




Some great info there guys to try and clarify al these misconceptions of the need to kill the snakes!!!!

So this poor little whip snake was killed for no reason........ lovely.

Also, as asked earlier, what were the circumstances of your mums bite?


----------



## Fuscus (Oct 27, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> I've always enjoyed the "bringing the snake in for ID" line. Who's going to ID it? The Doctor? The Nurse? Maybe the janitor? God helpthe victim if that's the case! :lol: .....VDK's! Simple, fast, effective and removes the guesswork!


Had a quick chat with my wife about what she does when someone presents a snake in ED. Her answer - run out of the room!


----------



## da_donkey (Oct 27, 2010)

Nathan T - you really are very nieve and obviosly new to herptocultue, i hope that you have a good think before you next posts.

donks


----------



## slim6y (Oct 27, 2010)

da_donkey said:


> Nathan T - you really are very nieve and obviosly new to herptocultue, i hope that you have a good think before you next posts.
> 
> donks


 
That's one way to look at it donks 

The other way is he was making a valid argument based on documents supplied.

However... I also agree whole-heartedly with moosenoose - who's going to identify this snake?

I've seen snake identification threads on this site with so called experts who have either got it wrong or have had to argue the point... A doctor, a janitor, the cafeteria staff... most probably aren't herpetologists, biologists etc.

The VDK is a tool - not 100% infallible (as with most medical sciences) - however - it is the most advanced method of identifying venom type that we currently have available.

Killing the snake does not help in the identification and in many cases puts a second or more people in danger of also being envenomated. 

Sensible... Not....


----------



## da_donkey (Oct 27, 2010)

its pretty simple people...

The VDK is used to indentify which antivenom is needed "if" signs of envenomation occur after the PIB is removed.

No doctor, nurse or ganitor with half a brain in there head is going to put there neck on the line and positivly identify a snake and administer antivenom based on there ID.

Therefore there is absoulutly No reason for anyone else to put themselves in danger by trying to capture or kill the snake in question.

The original post and some following posts just prove that there is still a lack of education amongst the general public regarding snakes and snake bite.

In no way am i having a go at the original poster, just sad to see a gorgeous little Whippy get killed for no reason.

donks


----------



## da_donkey (Oct 27, 2010)

BTW i read last week that BHP saliva can give a false positive for tiger snake venom with the VDK.

So even in saying this.........the 2 scenarios have the same outcome.

Present to hospital with No dead BHP 

VDK kit shows Tiger venom on bite site, patient is monitored for signs of enveomation after removal of PIB, no signs of enveomation, patient is discharged with nothing worse than some IV fluids and a tetnus shot.

_BHP goes on to breed and be happy _


Present to hospital with dead BHP

VDK kit shows Tiger venom on bite site, patient is monitored for signs of enveomation after removal of PIB, no signs of enveomation, patient is discharged with nothing worse than some IV fluids and a tetnus shot.

_BHP goes on to be some heros story down at the pub, and its one less python out there making babies :-(_



_donks_


----------



## burger (Oct 27, 2010)

do you think if we asked the mods really nicely, that certain people could be banned from making threads?

no names mentioned... just saying.


----------



## burger (Oct 27, 2010)

.


----------



## Kristy_07 (Oct 27, 2010)

So unnecessarily nasty, it had to be said twice!


----------



## redbellybite (Oct 27, 2010)

burger said:


> do you think if we asked the mods really nicely, that certain people could be banned from making threads?
> 
> no names mentioned... just saying.


and who are you aiming this at? .......this is a debate subject ..and hopefully now some will see that it is not the right thing to do KILL SNAKE FOR ID ....and learn something from this .


----------



## burger (Oct 27, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> hopefully now some will see that it is not the right thing to do KILL SNAKE FOR ID ....and learn something from this .



agreed.


----------



## Nathan_T (Oct 27, 2010)

Firepac said:


> No they wouldn't. They would have waited to see IF she became symptomatic then administered whatever antivenom was indicated by the results of the SVDK. No symptoms - No antivenom.
> 
> Medical Treatment of snakebite
> 
> ...



Cheers for that link Firepac, all I needed was evidence that a dead snake served no purpose in standard treatment practises. For those wondering about my logic, it was just that if I had reason to believe killing a snake would be a) of no danger to someone and b) possibly assist in saving someone's life, I'd have no problems doing so. Since firepac indicated b was incorrect, I have no reason to do so. Cheers for your patience firepac, while I hope never to be in that situation you may have just saved a snake's life


----------



## snakeluvver (Oct 27, 2010)

percey39 said:


> Also would you ever rely on a doctor giving a accurate ID, some cant even tell that you have a shattered knee cap!!! As has been said they do a swab then wait to see the results and go from there. Anti venom is a last resort!


 
it was definatly a wip snake


----------



## snakeluvver (Oct 27, 2010)

can i also just clear this up, I did not kill it, and i wouldnt have killed it. it was the neighbor who killed it.


----------



## snakeluvver (Oct 27, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> Some great info there guys to try and clarify al these misconceptions of the need to kill the snakes!!!!
> 
> So this poor little whip snake was killed for no reason........ lovely.
> 
> Also, as asked earlier, what were the circumstances of your mums bite?


she was hanging the washing and stood on its tail.


----------



## slim6y (Oct 27, 2010)

snakeluvver said:


> can i also just clear this up, I did not kill it, and i wouldnt have killed it. it was the neighbor who killed it.


 
It's alright - no one thinks you killed it (if they read your first post first line)... but many were jumping on the bandwagon of anyone else considering killing a snake for evidence of envenomation... 

No one agrees that the neighbour should have done it - and we hope that you can educate your neighbour - education is the most powerful tool we have in our society - and it's herpetologists that help educate against misconceptions.


----------



## Tsubakai (Oct 28, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I've looked several times to no avail to find statistics on how snake bites have occurred, about all that i can find is the stats of keepers vs. non-keepers and total numbers.
> 
> Do you have access to these stats that could be made public? Statistics like bites caused by trying to catch/kill/stepped on etc etc?
> 
> Has anyone else here been in for snake bite and not had a VDK administered? I have, it was a little concerning lol.


 

The hospitals don't keep the sort of stats most herp people are interested in using to educate the general public. My unit collects very few stats on snakebite as we only treat the seriously envenomated with all others being managed in the Emergency Dept. The information is probably discoverable by using the databases and doing audits of medical records but it would be labour intensive.

Do you always need a VDK? Not in all circumstances eg if you were in a small hospital that only stocked polyvalent antivenom then I would not necessarily run a VDK as it would not change management as no matter what the VDK result you would still get polyvalent if you showed signs of significant envenomation.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Oct 28, 2010)

Sorry to take this of topic slightly But i have a question on antivenom. I understand the venoms of some snakes are different than others but it is my understanding that antivenoms are not species or genus specific, an example was shown earlier of RBB testing positive for Tigersnake. Would I be correct to assume that the same antivenom would be used on all serious Pseudechis and Notechis bites, what other genus would be treated with this antivenom? Tsubakai, is a polyvalent antivenom used to treat all serious envenomation when no other antivenom is available? If so does this mean the potential side effects of the antivenom would be more severe? How many different antivenoms are used in Australia?


Steve


----------



## Defective (Oct 28, 2010)

percey39 said:


> Also would you ever rely on a doctor giving a accurate ID, some cant even tell that you have a shattered knee cap!!! As has been said they do a swab then wait to see the results and go from there. Anti venom is a last resort!


see now thats why i would go and just demand a pair of crutches and and then go see my dad. he's a radiographer of 25+ years and has recently been left in charge of over $4 million worth of xray/CT/MRI equipment plus other equipment like bone density and is trained so yeah, i wouldn't even book in an appointment i'd just hobble in and get an emergency xray done then wait for results.
i've had it done on most body parts coz i'm so accident prone.


----------



## Firepac (Oct 28, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Sorry to take this of topic slightly But i have a question on antivenom. I understand the venoms of some snakes are different than others but it is my understanding that antivenoms are not species or genus specific, an example was shown earlier of RBB testing positive for Tigersnake. Would I be correct to assume that the same antivenom would be used on all serious Pseudechis and Notechis bites, what other genus would be treated with this antivenom? Tsubakai, is a polyvalent antivenom used to treat all serious envenomation when no other antivenom is available? If so does this mean the potential side effects of the antivenom would be more severe? How many different antivenoms are used in Australia?
> 
> 
> Steve



Snake Group Initial Antivenom Dose

Brown Snakes 2 vial 'Brown' or 1 vial polyvalent
(Pseudonaja)


Tiger Snakes (Notechis) 2 vials 'Tiger' or 1 vial polyvalent
Copperheads (Austrelaps)
Rough Scaled Snakes


Mulga Snake 1 vial 'Black' or 1 vial Polyvalent
Collett's Snake
Spotted Black


Red Bellied Black 1 vial 'Tiger' or 1 vial Polyvalent


Death Adders 1 vial 'Death Adder' 0r 1 vial polyvalent


Taipans 2 vials 'Taipan' or 1 vial polyvalent


Sea-snakes 2 vial 'sea-snake' or 1 vial polyvalent


There are 7 different antivenoms used in Australia...

* Taipan
* Brown Snake
* Black Snake
* Tiger Snake
* Death Adder
* Sea Snake
* Polyvalent


----------



## Kristy_07 (Oct 28, 2010)

Lambert said:


> see now thats why i would go and just demand a pair of crutches and and then go see my dad. he's a radiographer of 25+ years and has recently been left in charge of over $4 million worth of xray/CT/MRI equipment plus other equipment like bone density and is trained so yeah, i wouldn't even book in an appointment i'd just hobble in and get an emergency xray done then wait for results.
> i've had it done on most body parts coz i'm so accident prone.


 
I couldn't work out why your radiographer dad would be able to ID what kind of snake had bitten you, or how giving an x-ray would help things. But I guess you were talking about the glib shattered knee cap comment and not a snake bite...


----------



## waruikazi (Oct 28, 2010)

The snake might be in your rib cage...



Kristy_07 said:


> I couldn't work out why your radiographer dad would be able to ID what kind of snake had bitten you, or how giving an x-ray would help things. But I guess you were talking about the glib shattered knee cap comment and not a snake bite...


----------



## percey39 (Oct 28, 2010)

Knee cap wasnt glib actually happened to me lol they would not even give me crutches or a wheel chair and made 45 yr old mother help me ( i was 17 and 6'4'' and weighed 95kg at the time ) Damn hospitals!!!!!!!!!
I would never trust a doctor who you have only just met to try and ID any snake lol, but thats never going to happen as it will never be needed! I dont understand who started this myth of needing the snake in recent years, the tests tell all.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Oct 28, 2010)

Thanks very much Firepac. Is it always preferable to use the correct antivenom over the polyvalent?


----------



## redbellybite (Oct 28, 2010)

Firepac said:


> Snake Group Initial Antivenom Dose
> 
> Brown Snakes 2 vial 'Brown' or 1 vial polyvalent
> (Pseudonaja)
> ...


 
Matt had 1 vile of brown (cause thats all they had ) and because of the severity of his condition the doctor didnt use poly on him and they did the trial of frozen fresh plasma instead ...also this method they claim is less chance of copping severe serum sickness down the track ...he did still suffer serum sickness though ..


----------



## Firepac (Oct 28, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Thanks very much Firepac. Is it always preferable to use the correct antivenom over the polyvalent?



As far as I am aware snake-specific antivenoms are less hazardous to the patient than polyvalent antivenoms, therefore they should be used if available.


----------



## Firepac (Oct 28, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> Matt had 1 vile of brown (cause thats all they had ) and because of the severity of his condition the doctor didnt use poly on him and they did the trial of frozen fresh plasma instead ...also this method they claim is less chance of copping severe serum sickness down the track ...he did still suffer serum sickness though ..



In my area although their protocols say to use Tiger Snake antivenom for RBB bite the normal stock holding of anti venom in the emergency department does NOT include Tiger Snake antivenom !! :shock: Guess if i get tagged by a RBB it is polyvalent for me


----------



## Elapidae1 (Oct 28, 2010)

Thanks again. RBB what is the frozen fresh plasma? I'm thinking it's the part of the blood containing antibodies. Do they believe the plasma aided his recovery or possibly saved his life? How is it administered?


----------



## redbellybite (Oct 29, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Thanks again. RBB what is the frozen fresh plasma? I'm thinking it's the part of the blood containing antibodies. Do they believe the plasma aided his recovery or possibly saved his life? How is it administered?


It is administered through a drip ,they do believe it helps the body to start clotting quicker again and the fact that if they can use less anti ven the better all round ..but it is still in its trial stages ,Matt wasnt really in a state to argue the point when they suggested to use it on him ...he has been added to the trial study now and the follow up notes will be part of the study too ..


----------

