# Touchy Subject?



## Oof (Jul 15, 2006)

As I am still pretty new here i'm curious as to what the deal is with live feeding.

When I was in the states, I fed my smooth green snakes live goldfish in a bowl as they were used to hunting through their waterdish for the animals.

I just read another forum posting about a Fussy Juvie and someone expected flaming because they used to feed live.

Now here in Aus, I read my license and saw that I am not allowed to feed live "meals". Is there a genuine reason for this or is it just because it's not considered humane to some. 

To me, the snake is a hunter..... that's what they do. I would expect them to naturally go after live prey.

It's a genuine question i'm asking in good faith as I had no idea what the policy was here until i just read that forum topic, so please don't flame me over it.


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## raptor (Jul 15, 2006)

Fish seem to be the exception


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## NRE-808 (Jul 15, 2006)

As far as i know, it is to reduce he risk of the snake being injured by the live animal. If people were allowed to feed live prey, there would more than likely be a lot more snakes out there with mites, worms etc... not suggesting that people on here would just go out and grab something from the back yard but.....


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## Moreliaman (Jul 15, 2006)

Did you know a mouse can kill a snake ?


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## Kersten (Jul 15, 2006)

Live rodents are capable of inflicting serious bites and scratches to snakes. Illegal or not, instinct or not....it's dangerous for the snake and therefore why would you bother with it? 

As for the "is there a genuine reason for it" question....that depends on what you consider to be genuine :wink: Whether there was a reason for it when the law was made is an easier question to answer. Yes there was one, or the law wouldn't have been made....would it? NRE since the law isn't just applicable to live feeding to snakes then I doubt it has anything to do with the snakes being hurt by their prey. It is however a very good reason no to do it.


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## Greebo (Jul 15, 2006)

I would feed live mice to my snakes but I saw what happened to that guy in Road Trip and I said no thanks.


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## NRE-808 (Jul 15, 2006)

i'm sure the law was made for the health and in the consideration for the snakes wellbeing  also, should an incident occour like in road trip... we are all better off  snakes and their careres


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## Australis (Jul 15, 2006)

If you feed live rodents to snakes, this is what you risk happening to your animal!!








Matt


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## Bakes (Jul 15, 2006)

Just an observation I've made. I've seen captive born pythons slowly take a dead meal, ie just approached and swallowed. I've seen wild caught pythons smash a meal and put a lot of strength into the capture. Perhaps the injurys to snakes have occured when someone placed a live mouse/rat in with a captive born snake that is used to its meal being dead?

I've also seen lots of wild childrens pythons and none have any scars on then. Perhaps the swift strike and wrap of a wild snake completely over powers its prey? Any other thoughts?


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## Bigblackdog (Jul 15, 2006)

As much as I would love to watch any of my Pythons hunt &amp; stalk their meals, I'm just not prepared to risk my snake's health - see MattQld83's delightful pic :shock: 

That is the ONLY reason (apart from the law, of course  )

I breed &amp; euthanase (sp?) rats for my animals, whether they're CO2'd or constricted, they all end up the same &amp; come out of the same end!

If anyone cares to mount their soapbox and have a rant at me, go for it.
This is my opinion, and as they say, opinions are like [edited], everyone has one! :twisted:


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## dynea (Jul 15, 2006)

OMG, Matt is that one of yours? what happened to the poor thing?  
Thankyou for sharing, it's important that we educate each other

seperatly and not judging anybody IMO 

I always thought that it was because in captivity both rodent and snake are cornered, the rodent has to turn and fight appose to running away, and the snake is shocked when the rodent dose turn and fight. it's not a natural situation and so we cant justify it by claming that it's natural instincts to eat live.


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## Australis (Jul 15, 2006)

dynea said:


> OMG, Matt is that one of yours? what happened to the poor thing?
> 
> seperatly and not judging anybody IMO
> 
> I always thought that it was because in captivity both rodent and snake are cornered, the rodent has to turn and fight appose to running away, and the snake is shocked when the rodent dose turn and fight. it's not a natural situation and so we cant justify it by claming that it's natural instincts to eat live.



No that isnt my animal, its a ball python that was left with a live rodent over night.


Dynea,

Your spot on, the captive situation is nothing like the scenario in the wild.

You have two animals cornered!


Matt


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## dickyknee (Jul 15, 2006)

Bakes said:


> I've also seen lots of wild childrens pythons and none have any scars on then. Perhaps the swift strike and wrap of a wild snake completely over powers its prey? Any other thoughts?



Good point ... but in the wild there is a chance of escape , so if the snake strikes and misses the rats can get away ... in a cage there is no option but to attack or be eaten as there is no where to go .
and i agree if the snake coils on a prey its pretty much over for the prey .it when the snake does not eat its prey straight away you may get trouble .


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## Glimmerman (Jul 15, 2006)

It is illegal to feed a "live vertibrate" animal to another "vertibrate". Can't remember where I read that. One of the law digests discussion animals. 

Plus for the above reasons already stated. 

Excellent evidence submitted there Matt. I think that pic should be displayed at all pet shops where live rats are sold as food. (oohhh sorry that doesn't happen now does it :roll: )


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## bikiescum2003 (Jul 15, 2006)

Glimmerman said:



> Excellent evidence submitted there Matt. I think that pic should be displayed at all pet shops where live rats are sold as food. (oohhh sorry that doesn't happen now does it :roll: )



now at one stage all i could buy down here was live rats. just because i bought them live from a petshop for food does not mean i put them in the cage live. its not the petshops foult if you do put them in live its your own


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## pythoness (Jul 15, 2006)

i have had to feed live before, with tricky feeders who would almost surely starve otherwise, but they have also always been a day or two old rat pups and incapable of doing any harm to the snake, and only untill feeding has settled down. flame away, i'm a big girl, i can take it.


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## snakegal (Jul 15, 2006)

Omg what happened to that poor ball python Matt? Would an injury like that be able to be treated with Vet help or would the poor think have to be put down?


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## peterescue (Jul 15, 2006)

Snake in captivity aren't hunters. Do you need your steak bought to you as a live cow so you can stalk it and bring it down every time you go to eat? Of course not. I also presume that you maen a python. They arent hunters but ambush predators in the main. They want to eat and use as little energy as possible in doing it. 
They take dead food because they recognise it. You feed them live and they will also take other things that move like your hand. 
Lets face it. Most people who feed live either do it because they get a kick out of watching it or makes them feel a lot more macho owning a snake that kills for it dinner. 
I had a 7ft brown and she was more than happy to take dead food in fact she used to dance for you.


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## jordo (Jul 15, 2006)

> I've also seen lots of wild childrens pythons and none have any scars on then. Perhaps the swift strike and wrap of a wild snake completely over powers its prey? Any other thoughts?


It might also be related to their diet as well, just guessing here so correct me if I'm wrong but don't the smaller pythons often feed mainly on skinks and bats in the wild, which may not have the defensive drive that a rodent can have, and also might not be equipt with claws and teeth like a rat (although i can imagine a bats got the gear its relatively helpless when its not flying), just a though.


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## hugsta (Jul 15, 2006)

bikiescum2003 said:


> Glimmerman said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent evidence submitted there Matt. I think that pic should be displayed at all pet shops where live rats are sold as food. (oohhh sorry that doesn't happen now does it :roll: )
> ...



That's true, but for those that feed live, it would certainly be an eye opener as to the realities of what can happen and it does happen, far to often.


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## peterjohnson64 (Jul 15, 2006)

I hope this live feeding law is only for vertabrate to vertabrate. I am not looking forward to knocking 1,000 crickets on the head each month.


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## krusty (Jul 15, 2006)

i use live mice only on hatchlings then get them eating frozen i only do this for the safety of my pythons.


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## hugsta (Jul 15, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> I hope this live feeding law is only for vertabrate to vertabrate. I am not looking forward to knocking 1,000 crickets on the head each month.



It's not that hard Pete, I get my beardies or ackies to crunch them in their mouth for me before ingesting them....... :shock: :lol: :lol:


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## dynea (Jul 15, 2006)

another point is that wild dogs eat meat, yet we feed our pet dogs on buiscuts. Your pets will adjust to the dead rodent even if you have to brain it and wriggle it to look alive.


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## Lurk (Jul 15, 2006)

Can I say something in defense of both sides of this issue please.....
Yes they do naturally hunt,but the situation is different when a snake and a prey item are put in a small area together such as enclosure or feed tub...Matt sent a lovely picture in and I do not think that this is what happened to that snake while a owner was sitting there..I do think who ever owened that reptile had left the rodent in the enclosure for a period of time without monitoring the two..and that is stupid..However if a handler has no choice but to feed live then they should stay and monitor the whole time incase injury does occure to the snake or prevent it from happening......

I am not for or against feeding live..I think that ppl who think it is exciting to watch the kill have issues...But if it is something that I would have to do I would think nothing of it...Everything has to eat and why is it so bad for a snake to kill a meal ? We do the difference is we shoot it or cut its throat after our dogs get hold of it and ppl do it as a sport...As I said this is something I would only do if I had no choice and I would do this in a responsible manner...But I do not do this and hope I do not run into a time when I will have to again as I have in the past....Sorry if I have offended any one I think its a silly argument and to say its not humane..Common..
I do not in any way allow owners to feed live prey to there herps if they do not have to......If this is something that has to be done donk it first and do not leave the feeding area...


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## Mysnakeau (Jul 15, 2006)

I had a customer tell me that she fed a live rat to a snake of hers once and the snake died. She had an autopsy done on it to reveal the rodent was rotting inside the snake. Why would this happen? Rat mighta been too big for the snake to digest or what?

All my repti-customers prefer using the frozen food. I have had a customer who have had snakes that wouldn't eat frozen food. But they bought a product called MOUSE MAKER. It stinks like hell but the idea was to give the dead food a live smell and he reckons it works wonders. I've sold 2 of these and both customers returned with positive feedback. But one of them was already on frozen food anyway. So I'm not sure of their purpose of using this. Maybe worth a thought.
Kathy


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## Lurk (Jul 15, 2006)

Maybe there was not enough heat for it to be digested...


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## mitchyj (Jul 15, 2006)

thats pic of the snake with its skin cumin off is gross


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## Lurk (Jul 15, 2006)

mitchyj said:


> thats pic of the snake with its skin cumin off is gross



Yes I agree and it was put there to shock I think...


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## Kersten (Jul 15, 2006)

Mysnakeau said:


> I had a customer tell me that she fed a live rat to a snake of hers once and the snake died. She had an autopsy done on it to reveal the rodent was rotting inside the snake. Why would this happen? Rat mighta been too big for the snake to digest or what?


A snake that hasn't digested it's food to the point where the item is literally rotting inside it suggets to me that it's metabolism is slow for some reason. More likely than not the animal was kept too cold during and after feeding and since it wasn't burning up energy through excercise or warmth it's been unable to digest correctly. Generally speaking if items are too large for consumption then they just don't swallow them.


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## aussiesnakelover (Jul 15, 2006)

hey i was just arguing about this subject before on msn
before you flame me i was on the side of against feeding live

EDIT:
sorry i just gotta right this here as i cant tel him direct as i am blocked 

there is no excuse for live feeding, if you snake will not take defrosted food try fresh killed and if not you can assist feed or as a very last resort force feed make sure you get shown by an experienced keeper before ever attempting on your own

or you could just feed live pinky's whether it be mice, rats or rabbits, and if its a big scrubby you better get breeding 

thanks for reading my ........ (insert apropriate word)

Daniel


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## elapid68 (Jul 15, 2006)

Had a little _childreni_ and I got lazy and gave him a live mouse. The mouse wasn't overly happy about being bitten and squeezed so he bit back. The _childreni_refused to eat for the next eleven and a half months. The sooner you can get your critters onto dead food the better. Rodents can make a real mess of reptiles (see Matt's photo)
But on the other hand, if I get bitten buy a mouse prior to euthenising it, Oh yes, it gets introduced to the Inland Taipans :shock: At least it's quick.


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## Australis (Jul 15, 2006)

Lurk said:


> Can I say something in defense of both sides of this issue ...Matt sent a lovely picture in and I do not think that this is what happened to that snake while a owner was sitting there..I do think who ever owened that reptile had left the rodent in the enclosure for a period of time without monitoring the two..and that is stupid



*I wrote previously:*



> No that isnt my animal, its a ball python that was left with a live rodent over night.




Granted the image i showed to some degree was ment to shock, while the damage to the python was over a extended period, its very possible for a rodent to kill a python in a matter of seconds.

The Inland Tiapan has some of the most toxic Venom in the world, and its for a reason!
Matt

(Edited for: spelling)


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## dynea (Jul 15, 2006)

I think this has been a really good post for all those people that maybe need a push in the right direction.


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## elapid68 (Jul 15, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> The Inland Tiapan has some of the most toxic Venom in the world, and its for a reason!
> Matt



And he's not shy about sharing it either. Tried to give me some on more that a few occasions.


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## serpenttongue (Jul 15, 2006)

The majority of Aussie pythons are ambush hunters, with the rest actively searching for prey. No matter which way a wild python comes across it's prey, the attack is planned.

In captivity a python keeper will nudge his/her python from sleep and then drop a rodent into the enclosure, as the snake drousely uncoils. NOTHING is planned and both animals need to do some very quick thinking. At such a time a snake can grab the rodent, but with poor judgement and end up grabbing the rodent on it's rump. This allows the rodent to turn and sink those nasty incisors into the snake and a bite in the right place can kill a snake.

I have never believed it necessary to feed live prey and there are even published accounts of pythons taking roadkill, so i dont think any python needs it's prey to be alive. Hasn't anyone ever heard of stunning rodents. Just give them a wack thats not of the full impact needed to kill it and this will stun the animal so it's not aware of it's surroundings, but it still moves. Do this if your absolutely desperate, but PERSISTANCE is the word and it's usually only the experienced keepers that have it.

I hear so many keepers say that their snake will only take live prey, and it's almost always newbies that say this because i believe that they lack the patience needed to wean snakes onto dead prey, so they just go straight for live. Some keepers have tried to get their snakes to take dead prey and in the end they have asked me to try. The snake is kept with me for a week and in that time the animal excepts it's dead meal with glee. This is only because my style of keeping was different and better suited the snake, thus it was happier and so it fed on dead!!

Naturalist Harry Frauca once wrote "Environment influences behaviour". Words to live by as far as i'm concerned and are so very true when it comes to reptile keeping. I believe you can get any snake to take dead prey, you just need to provide it with an environment that best suits the individual. Many keepers don't. Instead they believe that what works for one snake will work for all, and therein lies the problem concerning live/dead feeding.


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## aussiesnakelover (Jul 15, 2006)

very well said serpent tongue, i totally agree!


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## AntaresiaLady (Jul 16, 2006)

Personally, I wouldn't want to risk any animals life by doing something unnecessary and stupid. 

I'll feed frozen. And if need be freshly killed. But I won't ever feed any of my animals live prey. Its unnecessary and dangerous. 

JM2CW.


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## Spike14 (Jul 16, 2006)

> hey i was just arguing about this subject before on msn
> before you flame me i was on the side of against feeding live
> 
> EDIT:
> ...



Ok first of all i didnt block you. Second of all you didn't even listen to what i have said. If a snake will not eat thawed, i will try fresh killed then live, i do not believe on force feeding unless under certin circumstances. What if the snake just doesnt want to eat? Its just like me offering you food, you saying no, then my shoving it down you throat making you eat it.


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## aussiesnakelover (Jul 16, 2006)

hahah kane you not the only person i talk to on msn :roll: i wasnt talking about you in that post

and i dont like force feeding ethier i said use as a very last resort and this would be obviously when the snake starts to become unhealthy from not eating and after you have tried everything else besides live feeding  if done properly force feeding has very little affect and is surely better than taking a risk that your snake gets chewed up

live feeding is like me chucking you into a pen with a cow and then sending you in to get your own steak lol
but worse as at least you know what your in for when you tap your snake n then through a rat in gives it even less chance

have great night


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## Spike14 (Jul 16, 2006)

ok another thing, i never feed anything bigger than weiner mouse, anything bigger than that can have to much damage, ive nly had small snakes that have needed live, and when feeding live, i dont throuw it ontop of snake, the snake is usually on the branch and mouse at the bottom of cage, and the snake ambushes its prey, I'm going by what i have done personally and how my snake have fed, im open to other opinions, and thats yours


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## aussiesnakelover (Jul 16, 2006)

ethier way im still againt and that other post wasnt even aimed at you
the closest to live feeding i would go bside feeding pinkie's (i class pinkies to be until the develope the slightest bit of teeth, but usually i feed 1 or 2 day old "pinkies" and not live) back on track it would be feeding fresh killed with just nerves no brain so it cant attack

and all the other peoples opinions are there you just have to read them


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## Oof (Jul 16, 2006)

Well this has been an interesting read and I thank you guys, I really appreciate it. I have definately learned a few things from all the posts written about this.

But I think my topic header was spot-on.................Touchy Subject


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## Australis (Jul 16, 2006)

Alot of subjects are "touchy"


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## schontier (Jul 16, 2006)

perhaps someone on here has the exact wording for the law that is being spoken about. thus we can all read it and the point would then be clarified


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## Hickson (Jul 16, 2006)

Modst of the State animal protection acts say that you can't harm an animal or place it in a position where it can be harmed. They all tend to define _animal_ as a vertebrate, excluding humans (although SA also excludes fish). A couple of them include crustaceans in that definition, with respect to restaurants.



Hix


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## schontier (Jul 16, 2006)

Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979 
amended Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
Amendment Bill 2004
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/poctaa1979360/s4.html
For the purposes of this Act, a reference to an act of cruelty committed upon an animal includes a reference to any act or omission as a consequence of which the animal is unreasonably, unnecessarily or unjustifiably: 
(a) beaten, kicked, killed, wounded, pinioned, mutilated, maimed, abused, tormented, tortured, terrified or infuriated, 
(b) over-loaded, over-worked, over-driven, over-ridden or over-used, 
(c) exposed to excessive heat or excessive cold, or 
(d) inflicted with pain. 
Obviously this is not all there is but this research took the 2 available minutes i had this morning.
:?


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## Hickson (Jul 16, 2006)

That's the NSW legislation. Each state and Territory has it's own Act.



Hix


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## dynea (Jul 16, 2006)

Ok so i might post a new Question.

A friend of my husbands was telling me that her friend feeds her snake live rats, out on the floor in the lounge room. I told her what the rules are but she just give me a really blonde look (no offence).

What is the argument for that?


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## Hickson (Jul 16, 2006)

There is no argument. They are breaking the law.

Section4, Clause 3 of the Act reads:

_For the purposes of this Act, a person commits an act of aggravated cruelty upon an animal if the person commits an act of cruelty upon the animal or (being the person in charge of the animal) contravenes section 5 (3) in a way which results in:
(a) *the death*, deformity or serious disablement of the animal, or
(b) the animal being so severely injured, so diseased or in such a physical condition that it is cruel to keep it alive._



Hix


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## dynea (Jul 16, 2006)

Sorry I didn't word it right. How do you argue with someone who looks like they cant add 1+1. I guess there is no use anyway as they don't even own the snake. But I just wish people would listen and understand.


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## Jumala (Jul 16, 2006)

with people like that, you can only go with the theory of: 
'a picture is worth a thousand words'
show them some pics of live feed injuries on reptiles.


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## Turpsss (Jul 16, 2006)

*Touchy indead!*

I find it difficult to get a good regular supply of frozen rats in my area,any suggestions of any where i can get these from?Or the easiest way to euthenase live food? 8)


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## aussiesnakelover (Jul 16, 2006)

*RE: Touchy indead!*

CO2 gas is what i use its great they fall asleep and then die in there sleep and its easy but you have make sure you give them a leathal amount, i put mine in a ice cream container stick the hose in a leave gas running for 45-60 seconds, but with pinkie i rarely do this because gas it not cheap, i hust flick the pinkies in the head which kill there brain and breaks their neck


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## Australis (Jul 16, 2006)

Jumala said:


> with people like that, you can only go with the theory of:
> 'a picture is worth a thousand words'
> show them some pics of live feed injuries on reptiles.




Thats it, and you can find plenty of images of snakes that have been harmed by rodents with a google search, show the person a large amount of horrific images :shock: 


Matt


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## Turpsss (Jul 16, 2006)

*Touchy indead!*

Thanks ,just a simple Q, where can i get CO2 and how much $$ are we talkin 8)


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## aussiesnakelover (Jul 16, 2006)

*RE: Touchy indead!*

well im using my dad's beer brewing gas its food grade and im pretty sure you'll want to be using food grade, so beer brewing shops and if they dont sell it they should be able to refer you to a dealer and i would also have a look in the yellow pages


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## Turpsss (Jul 16, 2006)

*Touchy*

Cheers ,snakelover 8)


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## Mysnakeau (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: Touchy indead!*



Turpsss said:


> I find it difficult to get a good regular supply of frozen rats in my area,any suggestions of any where i can get these from?Or the easiest way to euthenase live food? 8)



Any pet store should be able to order in frozen food for you, even if they don't stock it. Should ask.


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## Australis (Jul 16, 2006)

Ive recently been burnt by one pet shop who sold me some rotten frozen mice, all of which i had to bin. these were from a very well known company, i think it was a issue in transit over a long distance.

Lesson learnt, avoid petshops that arent getting there frozen rodents from a local breeder.



Matt


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## bikiescum2003 (Jul 16, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> Ive recently been burnt by one pet shop who sold me some rotten frozen mice, all of which i had to bin. these were from a very well known company, i think it was a issue in transit over a long distance.
> 
> Lesson learnt, avoid petshops that arent getting there frozen rodents from a local breeder.
> 
> ...



had the same problem down here but they have now changed the packaging and it seems to have fixed the problem.. if its the same company


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## Mysnakeau (Jul 17, 2006)

We've have never had any problems getting ours from QLD. But that won't be a thing anymore as we have just found a local breeder where we will now stock up our supplies from.


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## Moreliaman (Jul 17, 2006)

peterescue said:


> Lets face it. Most people who feed live either do it because they get a kick out of watching it or makes them feel a lot more macho owning a snake that kills for it dinner.



Quite rightly said peter, IMO there is no reason what so ever to feed any captive snake live food &amp; anyone that is having difficulity in getting their snake to feed on dead should seek help from a more experinced keeper in their area.
Dont know about Aus but in the Uk it's illegal to feed anything living with a back bone.
Insect's have an exoskeleton so your ok feeding them.


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## Julie-anne (Jul 19, 2006)

I also heard that live feedings can increase the possibility of being tagged (as the snake is used to hunting/striking at living, moving objects), not sure how correct that one might be? 

Also, a friend of mine had a snake die after a live feeding, we later found out that the petshop had just sprayed all the mice for lice/bugs etc as these live mice are being sold as PETS not food, their FEEDER mice are sold frozen.


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