# NSW code of practice about to be released



## girdheinz (Mar 25, 2013)

THE COP has been finalised and is being implemented now to private keepers. Cage sizes become law now.

This was taken from an internal memo about reptiles in pet shops:

"People who keep pet reptiles under an Animal Keepers Licence or Companion Animal Licence are
now required to comply with the Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles administered
and enforced by NPWS. The minimum enclosure sizes specified in the Code will not be enforced
for the first year (to March 2014) to give keepers the opportunity to change their enclosures if
necessary."

Let the fun begin


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## girdheinz (Mar 25, 2013)

NPWS website has been updated with code


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## girdheinz (Mar 25, 2013)

The Code contains both standards and guidelines for keeping pet reptiles. Compliance with the standards in the Code is a condition of all OEH animal keepers' licences and companion animal keepers' licences.

OEH staff undertake regular audits of reptile keepers to assess compliance with the Code.

The Code is divided into the following eight sections:

'Enclosure construction' details standards for building outdoor and indoor enclosures as well as special requirements for housing dangerously venomous snakes.


'Enclosure sizes' establishes minimum spatial requirements for reptiles based on their size and behaviour. Keepers have until March 2014 to ensure their enclosures comply with these requirements.


'Enclosure environment' includes standards for temperature, ventilation, humidity, lighting and UV light requirements.


'Enclosure furnishing' has standards for substrate provision and furniture such as hides.


'Food, water and cleaning' details standards for food and water provision and hygiene.


'Transport' has standards on containers for transporting reptiles.


'Quarantine' has guidelines on measures to reduce the risks of disease transmission between reptiles.


'Record keeping' details information that may assist in identifying health issues.


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## girdheinz (Mar 25, 2013)

Code of practice for the private keeping of reptiles | NSW Environment & Heritage


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

> 10.2.2 A reptile should be micro chipped by a veterinarian with relevant experience, as this enables ownership of the reptile to be established. In the event of the reptile being stolen or escaping, it can be identified by the local council and returned to its rightful owner. Micro chipping is not recommended for juveniles and very small species.



Interesting.....


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

might make some of our enclosures redundant


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

And everyone can kiss keeping snakes in tub racks goodbye by the look of it.


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

Here is an interesting statement:

The Office of Environment and Heritage (OEH) has compiled this code of practice in
good faith, exercising all due care and attention. No representation is made about the
accuracy, completeness or suitability of the information in this publication for any
particular purpose. OEH shall not be liable for any damage which may occur to any
person or organisation taking action or not on the basis of this publication. Readers
should seek appropriate advice when applying the information to their specific needs.
This document may be subject to revision without notice and readers should ensure
they are using the latest version.


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

The lawyer's added that part :lol:


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

i think the microchipping is a guide,not actuality..... would prefer us to do it,but not troubled if we dont... im guessing


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

"Compliance with the standards in the Code is a condition of all OEH animal keepers' licences and companion animal keepers' licences"

How can someone hold a legitimate license one day and that very same license has new conditions added the next ? 

"This document may be subject to revision without notice"

So conditions can be changed at any time for whatever reason the department sees fit?

Unbelievable stuff and all because of the push by the pet shop industry to be able to sell reptiles.


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

How will pet shops comply with quarantine of snakes for 6 to 12 months if they usually have a fast turnover and several snakes on display in close vicinity of each other? 




Rams you still have that same avatar that makes me swipe the screen when I scroll to a post by you :lol:


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

Also love how on page 3 it states that the code was prepared with consultation from the various reptile societies in the state.


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> "Compliance with the standards in the Code is a condition of all OEH animal keepers' licences and companion animal keepers' licences"
> 
> How can someone hold a legitimate license one day and that very same license has new conditions added the next ?
> 
> ...




This is how:
Under the NPW Act
[h=4]133 Conditions and restrictions attaching to licences and certificates and variation of licences and certificates[/h] 
(1) A licence or certificate issued under this Part shall be subject to such conditions and restrictions (if any) as are for the time being prescribed in relation to licences or certificates of the class to which the licence or certificate belongs.​ (1A) It is a condition of a licence issued under section 131 authorising the picking of a protected native plant in the wild that the picking be carried out in accordance with any relevant flora plan of management for the protected native plant adopted under section 115A.​ (2) The Director-General may, if the Director-General thinks fit, attach any conditions or restrictions to a licence or certificate upon its issue.​ (3) The Director-General may, by notice in writing served on the holder of a licence or certificate: *(a) attach any conditions or restrictions to the licence or certificate after its issue*, ​ (b) vary or remove any conditions or restrictions attached to the licence or certificate, or​ (c) otherwise vary the licence or certificate. ​


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## Focus (Mar 26, 2013)

This is all disheartening & disappointing.


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## sara_sabian (Mar 26, 2013)

I feel for you guys in NSW. I don't like the implication that a beaurocrat knows more about the needs of reptiles than people who've been keeping and breeding for literally decades. 

Does anyone know what herp societies they supposedly conferred with? 

It certainly leaves a bad taste in the mouth and sets an ugly precedent for other states to follow suit. 

Are there provisions for bad feeders that may thrive better in smaller, darker enclosures? I'm curious as to what they deem to be a suitable substrate when many in the hobby can't even agree on that one. 

You could make the argument that they have the reptiles best interests at heart but if the rangers in NSW are anything like a few I've met in QLD I'd find it very hard to take them seriously.

And the NSW pet industry selling reptiles, I'll keep those thoughts to myself. To put it in simple terms though, a minority of decent stores with the knowledge of reptile husbandry does not make up for the majority that do not. Antaresia are available in QLD and more than once I've heard store people telling customers to get their baby spotted onto mealworms or crickets if it won't take pinkies. SMH. I'm not convinced that most of these places should even be selling gold fish, let alone pythons & dragons.


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

After a look read of this document it isn't too bad. The biggest losers will be the monitor keepers particular those that keep mid sized monitors. Eg. For 1 ackie an enclosure of 0.98m2 is needed which equals to 1.4m x 0.7m for a pair you will have to add on at 50% making the area 1.47m2 which equals to 1.8 x 0.82 (slightly above 1.47m2).

For tristis including the smaller freckleds the area is 1.92m2 for a pair.

Looks like I will have to build new cages - bummer


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## RSPcrazy (Mar 26, 2013)

I just read the minimum size requirements for lace monitors, 3.2m x 1.6m!

I have 3 lacies! which all live inside. Where am I going to find that sort of space!

I'm in the middle of upgrading some of my jungles to bigger enclosures 750mm L x 600mm D x 500mm H. I felt this was a good size for them and also space efficient for me. But after reading the requirements for jungles, that's still to small. With all my reptiles, I don't have the space for 1m - 1.75m long enclosures for my 60+ reptiles.

So far the only pythons I keep that pass the requirements, are my Antaresia's and hatchlings (all my rack tubs are the exact size listed on the document, lucky).


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## sd1981 (Mar 26, 2013)

It's ridiculous... I have been following this closely as I have lived in Sydney for the majority of my life, moving up to Brissy only recently... How are the people who have large collections going to go? I get the concept of space for each individual animal, but people who have 5+ animals physically won't have enough space in an average sized home..... Large Monitor specialists would need a bedroom per monitor or thereabouts... People like Crocdoc who have a few specimens in various stages of growth and development needs to either move house or get rid of a few of his lacies??? I think everyone who knows him and has seen how he loves and respects his lacies would agree that his collection is immaculately maintained, well adjusted and happy.... Who did these clowns consult with before writing this document??? Just curious, what's the minimum size for a scrubby enclosure??? A 2bedroom appartment???


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

i think its great news!!

some people obviously need to be told that its not right to keep big snakes in tiny storage boxes, some of those rack threads make me feel sick!!

hopefully other states wont be too far behind.


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## sd1981 (Mar 26, 2013)

I dont agree with people keeping hundreds of reptiles in the snake racking system, but I think a little common sense needs to be used here. I've seen some indoor enclosures that wouldn't pass under these new regs, but they'd slaughter plenty of Zoo displays (not just aesthetically, I'm talking square meterage, thermostats, heating, lighting, humidifiers,the works). For many people, the reptiles are like their babies and are treated like their own children. I'm happy that I only have 1 lace monitor, live in QLD and own my own home so am able to set up a forever home the way I believe these majestic creatures deserve. I think if people are breeding reptiles for sale, there needs to be certain requirements to ensure that they're being housed properly, not like puppy farms and chicken hatcheries etc....


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## girdheinz (Mar 26, 2013)

Herp Societies were consulted early on and agreed to guidelines only. They were adamant that there should be no enforceable my minium standards ever. This was unacceptable to them. Most of tje enclosure sizes in the document were reccomended sizes for guidlines only. 

We made it clear at the time, that these would not be the mandatory minimums we would agree to if they would become enforceable standards.

From that point on we were all shut out of the process. Minimum standards has nothing to do with animal welfare, it is based on public perception only. As RAMS points out, this all came about to coincide with animal's being sold in NSW pet shops. They said early on in the process that this wouldn't happen without a mandatory code of practice.


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

all bent over ... what it will do,is stop ppl from getting the larger species of animals,i think. who's going to go to that much trouble?? to fit any of the carpets,olives etc ??

well there goes my coastal and darwins...who wants to buy them??


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

I must be doing my Maths wrong: womas are class C therefore need .4m2 or 40cm2 so isn't that saying they can live in a 20cm cube? I must be doing something wrong lol.


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## Coppersimon (Mar 26, 2013)

Bushfire said:


> Here is an interesting statement:
> 
> The Office of Environment and Heritage (OEH) has compiled this code of practice in
> good faith, exercising all due care and attention. No representation is made about the
> ...



To me this would mean if you can justify what your doing and why your doing it nothing needs to change.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

Oops, just worked out where I went wrong!


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

Umbral said:


> I must be doing my Maths wrong: womas are class C therefore need .4m2 or 40cm2 so isn't that saying they can live in a 20cm cube? I must be doing something wrong lol.



u may be right but then i forgot maths back in '82 when i left school....


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## Peterwookie (Mar 26, 2013)

I am hoping that they have brought this in as a guide for new keepers , and leave it at that , there is no way that they can police these new tank sizes , everyone is different with the way they keep there snakes but at the end of the day as long as you animals are in great health & well cared for that is all that matters ....


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

Coppersimon said:


> To me this would mean if you can justify what your doing and why your doing it nothing needs to change.


 These type of statements are designed to protect the department, not keepers. So if it turns out keeping a Woma in a 1 X 0.4 metre enclosure is detrimental to their health, the department can't be prosecuted. Or if you lose your house because you can't pay the mortgage any more, because you've had to spend thousands of dollars upgrading your collection, you can't sue the department. I think any responsible herp enthusiast would agree with the development of standards to ensure animal welfare, but some of these regs are bordering on ridiculous. And what this will do is drive people underground. If holding a licence means complying with unworkable regulations, people may be tempted to keep reptiles without a licence. This doesn't do anyone any good - least of all the animals. I wish they'd spend more money in places where it's really needed - like making trains run on time! Oh, and in case anyone from the department is reading this - my enclosure complies!


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

New regulations don't take into account localities that are smaller in size than their counter parts eg. Tanami womas and gouldii flavi.


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

the cage sizes are not unreasonable at all, not to mention we've all known for years that this will be happening.

whats unreasonable about keeping a large (2.5m) python in a 1.25x,.5metre cage, (which would have a smaller floor space than a standard 4x2 foot enclosure)
its still on the small side imo.

id happiiy pay higher licenseng fees to make sure it is patrolled and adhered to.


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## Pinoy (Mar 26, 2013)

Would these new laws apply to commercial breeders? 
Places like Snake Ranch and the many pet stores that will be selling reptiles?


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

Pinoy said:


> Would these new laws apply to commercial breeders?
> Places like Snake Ranch and the many pet stores that will be selling reptiles?


 It may depend on the nature of their licence. Since it's not been legal to "commercially" sell reptiles as a business - in theory - until recently, they may develop a new licensing system for retailers, which will come with standards and guidelines. Don't be surprised if the standards for retailers are less strict than those for keepers. Governments tend to be a little scared of people like the Retailers Assn. I might be wrong, but I suspect I won't be. The argument may be retailers will only hold larger numbers of animals for short periods, therefore the space requirements, for example, may be smaller? Again, I'm only guessing, but it would make sense for them to develop retailer standards that differ from keeper standards. Bear in mind too, there is a difference between a commercial breeder - who may keep herps, but for many years - and a retailer, who will only aim to keep their stock for short periods.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

What makes them think people will actually comply to this? As someone said it will just drive everyone into a back alley situation. How would they even enforce cage sizes anyway? Officials going around to every license keeper in the state?


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## Peterwookie (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> the cage sizes are not unreasonable at all, not to mention we've all known for years that this will be happening.
> 
> whats unreasonable about keeping a large (2.5m) python in a 1.25x,.5metre cage, (which would have a smaller floor space than a standard 4x2 foot enclosure)
> its still on the small side imo.
> ...



It is fantastic how passionate you are ..


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

lol, i sense a little sarcasm,..


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## Jessie_James (Mar 26, 2013)

Just went and checked my enclosures after waking up to this. Two are on the money and one is just under size so I have a year to rectify it. I don't disagree with this piece of legislation but I do feel for the people with a lot of animals that may need to spend the coin to keep there family members. Will it drive more people into back ally's? I think so.


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## saximus (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> the cage sizes are not unreasonable at all, not to mention we've all known for years that this will be happening.
> 
> whats unreasonable about keeping a large (2.5m) python in a 1.25x,.5metre cage, (which would have a smaller floor space than a standard 4x2 foot enclosure)
> its still on the small side imo.



I tend to agree with this. All of my enclosures are well over these limits and the typical 4x2x2 and most people suggest for Carpets is satisfactory for anything except Scrubbies and Olives.
I do feel bad for the big guys who are using tubs though. It has the potential to really screw them over. 

As for people wondering how it will be enforced, if it was me in charge, the logical thing to do would be to target people with a large number of animals on their books. The average hobbyist with a couple of snakes is more likely to provide larger enclosures than someone who owns 50+.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 26, 2013)

This has been a smoke & mirrors activity from the department from the time of the first meeting, when 12 of the most experienced herpers in NSW, academics, professional keepers, and long-term private keepers made it clear, UNANIMOUSLY, that mandated enclosure sizes would not be accepted (for many very valid reasons) by them. Many of these individuals, including myself, were representatives of herp groups in NSW, and chosen to be spokespeople for the keeping community.

Despite the suggestion that the Code was drawn up in "consultation" with representatives of the herp community, there was obviously no intention to compromise on the issues we thought important, and as soon as it was apparent that we unanimously disagreed with some of the things that the Department wanted to be mandatory, we were shut out of all further discussion, and I mean ABSOLUTELY STONEWALLED.

As recently as a couple of months ago, two keeper's representatives (one a professional keeper, the other a veterinary academic), met with the Minister to discuss our concerns... obviously to no avail.

I've recently been having some thoughts about how keepers and the Department could improve communication, with the prospect of a better mutual working relationship. This is the worst possible outcome for keepers (and reptiles) in NSW - a big stick wielded by bureaucratic zealots is not the way to develop a mutually beneficial working relationship. We were assured of an open process on the first day of discussion, after that it became more and more mired in secrecy.

Jamie


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

They don't have the resources to in force this..... Queensland has had min cage requirements for years and no one follows them


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## T0ken (Mar 26, 2013)

=bECS= said:


> And everyone can kiss keeping snakes in tub racks goodbye by the look of it.



It dosn't exclude people from still using racks. It will however make people think about the size racks they use.

A "Vision" python rack can accommodate up to a category D python.
however it does eliminate the species classed as climbing.

I don't use racks so not affected, however I don't believe this will stop people from using them.

a 4x2x2 really is the new minimum for alot of pythons.


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> How would they even enforce cage sizes anyway? Officials going around to every license keeper in the state?


 I would imagine they will need some sort of warrant to enter your premises? I guess they could always cancel your licence if you fail to comply with requests? Not sure of the legality of that one. In any case, I'll be making them cross every single "t" and dot every single "i". I worked in Federal law enforcement for 15 years and if I ever have any dealings with these people, they'll be doing it 100% by the book. And like I said earlier, my set up complies. However, as others have said, I'll bet they go for keepers with larger collections. And it might all be too hard and no one will be audited. But guys, do your homework. We have a year. Make sure you understand your rights and find out what *they* must do to enter your premises and check your compliance.


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## saximus (Mar 26, 2013)

T0ken said:


> A "Vision" python rack can accommodate up to a category D python.
> however it does eliminate the species classed as climbing.


It doesn't eliminate them. It says that, for climbing species, the minimum measurements can be floor or wall area.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

I'm at school so I don't have the time to read the code thoroughly, how does it affect breeders?


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> I'm at school so I don't have the time to read the code thoroughly, how does it affect breeders?


 In a nut shell, breeders have to comply with the provisions of their licence (this won't change) and will have to adhere to the Guidelines in the Code for keeping their animals. It's only 30 odd pages. Read it over Easter or the school holidays. You've got a whole year.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

It is the thin edge of the wedge,giving them even more power to dictate to keepers who up until now were complying with their license conditions.

Cage sizes may be reasonable but that is not the point,the mere fact that they can now run a tape measure over an enclosure and seize an animal if the tape shows even 1 cm less than the rule. 


I wonder why they didn't go after bird keepers after all keeping cockatoos etc in those small wire cages can't be good for them given that they use a lot more territory in the wild than any reptile ever would and are very intelligent animals compared to reptiles.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 26, 2013)

It should be remembered that these regulations were introduced on the basis of there being some undefined problem with the way keepers were managing their animals. Despite numerous requests for an indication of where there is a problem, In the vast majority of cases, there is no problem at all - most keepers have up to a few animals and if anything, go overboard in terms of the space required. Those with large collections confine their animals for a number of very good reasons - space requirements, ease of heating and management, ease of cleaning to name a few (all of these add up to good husbandry, especially for animals that spend large parts of their lives in very confined spaces under rocks and logs...).

Before some of you get all starry eyed about how much more wonderful it will be for the reptiles of NSW, take a moment to think about who produces a large number of these animals for the pet trade, and those who must of necessity manage large collections, such as Taronga and the Reptile Park - can the ARP afford to build new facilities for the large number of vens it has to maintain for venom production? Will trying to wrestle a 2 or 3 metre King Brown or Taipan out of a large, spacious enclosure increase the risks to the employees of that establishment. As soon as you take control of these fundamental matters out of the hands of the people who actually work with these dangerous animals, and place it into the hands of idealogically-driven bureaucrats, problems will arise.

As far as solving the problem of illegal collecting, it will be about as effective as the GST was at stamping out the "black economy," and we all know what a game-changer that was !

Jamie


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## Snowman (Mar 26, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> I wonder why they didn't go after bird keepers after all keeping cockatoos etc in those small wire cages can't be good for them given that they use a lot more territory in the wild than any reptile ever would and are very intelligent animals compared to reptiles.



i guess they aren't trying to reduce the number of birds people keep. No doubt the minimum size enclosures for reptiles is supposed to have a limiting effect on how many reptiles you can keep in NSW. 
Is there any group or society going to challenge this in court or something?


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

saximus said:


> It doesn't eliminate them. It says that, for climbing species, the minimum measurements can be floor or wall area.



I suppose it will depend on how an authorised officer intrprets this standard:


4.1.1.3 An enclosure housing a species that normally climbs (see Appendix A)
must have sufficient useable vertical space for the reptile to climb.


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## skittles85 (Mar 26, 2013)

Zipidee said:


> I would imagine they will need some sort of warrant to enter your premises? I guess they could always cancel your licence if you fail to comply with requests? Not sure of the legality of that one. In any case, I'll be making them cross every single "t" and dot every single "i". I worked in Federal law enforcement for 15 years and if I ever have any dealings with these people, they'll be doing it 100% by the book. And like I said earlier, my set up complies. However, as others have said, I'll bet they go for keepers with larger collections. And it might all be too hard and no one will be audited. But guys, do your homework. We have a year. Make sure you understand your rights and find out what *they* must do to enter your premises and check your compliance.



Pretty sure this would be the same as holding a firearms license, holding a license grants them the ability to demand seeing all firearms and storage at anytime without any notice or for any given reason. They do random checks here in SA all the time.

There would be some sort of clause in the fine print of having a reptile license that would grant any National Parks and Wildlife etc to be able to do the same thing in checking on reptiles i would imagine.


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## FAY (Mar 26, 2013)

From what I have heard, not sure how true, they had heaps of meetings with persons that actually kept reptiles and actually know what they are talking about, that all went out the window and they got directions from the DPI who wouldn't know one end of a shingleback from the other.


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## mummabear (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> i think its great news!!
> 
> some people obviously need to be told that its not right to keep big snakes in tiny storage boxes, some of those rack threads make me feel sick!!
> 
> hopefully other states wont be too far behind.



I hope you keep water bowls in all you gecko enclosures Chris. Despite them not needing it or drinking from them you can be prosecuted for not providing them.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

mummabear said:


> I hope you keep water bowls in all you gecko enclosures Chris. Despite them not needing it or drinking from them you can be prosecuted for not providing them.




Thanks for reminding me.I'm now going to give my shinglebacks nice big bowls of clean cool water.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

Anyone want to work out enclosure size for 4 ackies for me?


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## mummabear (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> They don't have the resources to in force this..... Queensland has had min cage requirements for years and no one follows them



Yes, but QLD's are guidelines. NSW has enforceable standards by which you can be prosecuted if you do not comply.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

mummabear said:


> Yes, but QLD's are guidelines. NSW has enforceable standards by which you can be prosecuted if you do not comply.



Still I doubt the people that have a couple of geckos and a python a few centimetres under the minimum will be in much danger. It will be people with big collections that they will target.


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Anyone want to work out enclosure size for 4 ackies for me?



1.86m2 or 1.86m x 1m is the min


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> It should be remembered that these regulations were introduced on the basis of there being some undefined problem with the way keepers were managing their animals. Despite numerous requests for an indication of where there is a problem, In the vast majority of cases, there is no problem at all - most keepers have up to a few animals and if anything, go overboard in terms of the space required. Those with large collections confine their animals for a number of very good reasons - space requirements, ease of heating and management, ease of cleaning to name a few (all of these add up to good husbandry, especially for animals that spend large parts of their lives in very confined spaces under rocks and logs...).
> 
> Before some of you get all starry eyed about how much more wonderful it will be for the reptiles of NSW, take a moment to think about who produces a large number of these animals for the pet trade, and those who must of necessity manage large collections, such as Taronga and the Reptile Park - can the ARP afford to build new facilities for the large number of vens it has to maintain for venom production? Will trying to wrestle a 2 or 3 metre King Brown or Taipan out of a large, spacious enclosure increase the risks to the employees of that establishment. As soon as you take control of these fundamental matters out of the hands of the people who actually work with these dangerous animals, and place it into the hands of idealogically-driven bureaucrats, problems will arise.
> 
> ...



Reptiles held for scientific purpose are not subject to the code. Wouldn't venom production fit into this category?

Wing_Nut


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Mar 26, 2013)

mummabear said:


> Yes, but QLD's are guidelines. NSW has enforceable standards by which you can be prosecuted if you do not comply.


how can they enforce it. In Qld if you hand in your movement advice 3 months late they don't care. it seems like 5 people are running QLDs licensing system. Dont know what the authorities are like down there.


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## MyMitchie (Mar 26, 2013)

What really annoyed me was their use of dangerously in front of the word venomous. Like come on? Venomous basically means dangerous. The way they have worded it sounds like they are meaning that only dangerous venomous snakes need to comply which is untrue as all venomous have the capacity to be dangerous. To me it's made them look a bit stupid.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 26, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> Still I doubt the people that have a couple of geckos and a python a few centimetres under the minimum will be in much danger. It will be people with big collections that they will target.



Herein lies the problem - once the Code has been enshrined in law, the overseers don't have the right to exercise discretion. Your enclosures are either compliant or they are not, and an inspector cannot say "well you're a good bloke so we'll let you get away with it." It can't be one rule for some, regardless of the number of animals you have. I don't have a big collection, but why should people with big collections be singled out for attention?

Jamie


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

mummabear said:


> I hope you keep water bowls in all you gecko enclosures Chris. Despite them not needing it or drinking from them you can be prosecuted for not providing them.



actually, i have upside down terracotta saucers in all the cages, 2 in the bigger ones. i mist them every night till theres a good puddle on each, and they dry out during the day so they do get fresh water daily. 

i see the geckos using them quite often, which i didnt expect, but they do...

(it was actually a pic u posted of ur amyae drinking from a bowl that insipred me to try it,...)


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

with the joy of some people who agree with this moronic beaurocratic sledgehammer,how many reps do you think will be dumped because of this draconian law??? because ppl who now DONT HAVE the space to keep the reps they do,could very well just drive out to the nearest forest and let them go...... or like it was suggested,just let their licence lapse and still keep their reps as they were doing.....not very smart of you to agree.......


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

mummabear said:


> Yes, but QLD's are guidelines. NSW has enforceable standards by which you can be prosecuted if you do not comply.



do you think they have the man power to check everyone's collection?


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## Stuart (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> do you think they have the man power to check everyone's collection?



Irrespective of such, do you think that limited manpower will stop them checking and prosecuting if they deem it necessary?


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

jacorin said:


> with the joy of some people who agree with this moronic beaurocratic sledgehammer,how many reps do you think will be dumped because of this draconian law??? because ppl who now DONT HAVE the space to keep the reps they do,could very well just drive out to the nearest forest and let them go...... or like it was suggested,just let their licence lapse and still keep their reps as they were doing.....not very smart of you to agree.......



This. Why even have a license apart from needing it to get herps from breeders? (If they aren't shady). This will just make people ditch it and keep herps in secret, basically..


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

SniperCap said:


> Irrespective of such, do you think that limited manpower will stop them checking if they deem it necessary?


 Like all government departments, they will operate on a risk-management basis. So they will target "non-compliance" and where they see risk. That means they will most likely do two things: 1) act on information or intelligence, or 2) target licence holders who pose the greatest risk. Think about it: if you had a budget to conduct enforcement activities, would you go and look at John Smith, who has a single Mac in a fish tank and holds a Companion Licence, or Bill Bloggs who has a Cat 2 licence and breeds animals? It costs the same to go out and visit both, but the potential results are very different. Trust me, I did law enforcement for 15 years. The idea that they will do "random" checks would be very unlikely. It would be very poor practice ... spending a lot of money for limited results. I mean, I hope they do. They'll run out of budget in no time!!! :lol: But as I said earlier, don't be caught out. Read the Guidelines, do your homework. The best defence is to be ready.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

Did anyone come across what penalties will be imposed for non compliance?


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

SniperCap said:


> Irrespective of such, do you think that limited manpower will stop them checking and prosecuting if they deem it necessary?


you are right and like some said before they will target people with larger collections because then they are more likely to be able to issue fines and make seizures of animals to make it look like they are actually doing something. this will drive even more people underground now.


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

Zipidee said:


> Like all government departments, they will operate on a risk-management basis. So they will target "non-compliance" and where they see risk. That means they will most likely do two things: 1) act on information or intelligence, or 2) target licence holders who pose the greatest risk. Think about it: if you had a budget to conduct enforcement activities, would you go and look at John Smith, who has a single Mac in a fish tank and holds a Companion Licence, or Bill Bloggs who has a Cat 2 licence and breeds animals? It costs the same to go out and visit both, but the potential results are very different. Trust me, I did law enforcement for 15 years. The idea that they will do "random" checks would be very unlikely. It would be very poor practice ... spending a lot of money for limited results. I mean, I hope they do. They'll run out of budget in no time!!! :lol: But as I said earlier, don't be caught out. Read the Guidelines, do your homework. The best defence is to be ready.



but if bill bloggs doesn't have a license they don't know where he lives and don't have the resources or budget to find him. less people renewing their license, means less money for the department budget so even less enforcement... with all the budget cuts by government they are just shooting themselves in the foot.


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## nervous (Mar 26, 2013)

When they state this "*standard*" 

*4.3.1.1 The enclosure’s shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed*

are they saying a 1.2m python will require a cage width (shortest floor dimension) of 0.960m (1.2 - 20%)?
or am i reading it wrong?


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> but if bill bloggs doesn't have a license they don't know where he lives and don't have the resources or budget to find him. less people renewing their license, means less money for the department budget so even less enforcement... with all the budget cuts by government they are just shooting themselves in the foot.



Yes but they have records of what people kept before letting their licenses expire so those people would then be open for an inspection,confiscations and subsequent fines for keeping native animals without the appropriate license.


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Did anyone come across what penalties will be imposed for non compliance?


 Don't want to get too complicated here, but it isn't the Guidelines that impose penalties. It is the National Parks and Wildlife legislation. Under this law the guidelines and licensing arrangements are made. So, check the conditions on your licence. On mine it states:* it is an offence under the National Parks and Wildlife Regulations (2009) to breach any of the conditions of this licence...* There are 14 General Conditions, including compliance with "conditions or instructions that the department may issue from time to time." The maximum penalty is $3,000, plus - licences can be suspended. I would imagine cases of excessive cruelty etc would carry higher penalties and gaol time, under other laws.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

nervous said:


> When they state this "*standard*"
> 
> *4.3.1.1 The enclosure’s shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed*
> 
> ...



I believe that would make the shortest floor measurement 0.24m. 

Wing_Nut


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

nervous said:


> When they state this "*standard*"
> 
> *4.3.1.1 The enclosure’s shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed*
> 
> ...



im reading that as 24cms being the shortest floor dimension for a 1.2m python (20% of 1.2m)

oops, wing nut beat me,...


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> but if bill bloggs doesn't have a license they don't know where he lives and don't have the resources or budget to find him. less people renewing their license, means less money for the department budget so even less enforcement... with all the budget cuts by government they are just shooting themselves in the foot.


 Exactly right. So unless someone dobs Bill Bloggs in, he won't be caught. A lot of this is about appeasing lobby groups etc who will complain that pet shops are selling herps to anyone. The Minister - who in NSW doesn't have a great track record of achievement - can come out and say "no, we've set standards and these will be enforced."


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Yes but they have records of what people kept before letting their licenses expire so those people would then be open for an inspection,confiscations and subsequent fines for keeping native animals without the appropriate license.



I have a friend that had 50 snakes and didn't renew his license no one has come to his house for an inspection in that was 3 and abit years ago now. I guess in 12months time we will find out how far they will take these new reg....


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

Cage dimensions = 0.5(max length of snake) x 0.2(max length of snake)

This is even smaller than many of the published experts recommended in many "bibles" of python husbandry. 

Wing_Nut


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## Wally (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> hopefully other states wont be too far behind.



Victoria has had one for years.

Private Keeping of Reptiles - Department of Primary Industries


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

so for coastals and darwins,if i make a bank up of 205x 50x50...... thats well within standard??


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

jacorin said:


> so for coastals and darwins,if i make a bank up of 205x 50x50...... thats well within standard??



Their example has 1250 x 50


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

jacorin said:


> so for coastals and darwins,if i make a bank up of 205x 50x50...... thats well within standard??



According to the standard that would be in excess of the minimum.

Wing_Nut


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## nervous (Mar 26, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> I believe that would make the shortest floor measurement 0.24m.
> 
> Wing_Nut



Thanks wing nut and chris1...

these cage measurements (for snakes at least) seem smaller than most ppl make anyways... you can still keep babies and juvies up to 18months in tubs, then up grade to a enclosure...


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

For Carpets the min size for something over 18 months of age for 1 animal is 0.625m2 so an enclosure of 1m x 0.625m would be needed


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> According to the standard that would be in excess of the minimum.
> 
> Wing_Nut



oh well if its in excess,i better drop it back to 1250x50,just to be sure 

i'd hate to be excessive


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 26, 2013)

Wally76 said:


> Victoria has had one for years.
> 
> 
> Private Keeping of Reptiles - Department of Primary Industries



In Victoria, enclosure sizes are not mandated in law...

Jamie.


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

The python cages arent too bad.
Its the monitor cages that bother me. 
I'm going to have to build an extension on the house if I decide to keep the Spencers as adults inside. Their requirements are almost bigger than my bedroom as adults!!


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

I keep alot of pythons, monitors and geckos. So far for size the standard cages for pythons and geckos seem to be ok. Its the monitor cages that will stuff me around particularly the ackies, tristis, and scalaris.


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

''animals need substrate deep enough to be able to bury themselves'' no more newspaper......


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## colubridking (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 all my cages comply for all my animals bar 1 who's new cage in the process of being built is larger then standards, i just think your comments and thoughts are irrelevant and foolish.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> ''animals need substrate deep enough to be able to bury themselves'' no more newspaper......



Bury themselves under another layer of newspaper.


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## FAY (Mar 26, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> Bury themselves under another layer of newspaper.



As they do.........


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## saintanger (Mar 26, 2013)

i agree we need some rules in place on minimum size recquirments as i have seen adult pythons kept in 2ft enclosures and tiny tubs but some of these rules are a joke.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

Wouldn't it make more sence to base enclosure size on a percentage of a snakes length? At the moment Pygmy pythons are required to have the same size as a stimsons that grows to twice the length.... Because that makes sence right?


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

colubridking said:


> Chris1 all my cages comply for all my animals bar 1 who's new cage in the process of being built is larger then standards, i just think your comments and thoughts are irrelevant and foolish.




i dont see how my comments are irrelevant or foolish, every day i see people who 'cant wait till tlhey have enough snakes to fill a rack', theyre not even trying to provide adequate housing, just trying to get a larger number of animals than the next person.

and i dont care what you think, its the law now, and high time too.

im off to bake some muffins so i can offer the inspectors a nice muffin with their cup of coffee when they come to my door.


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Wouldn't it make more sence to base enclosure size on a percentage of a snakes length? At the moment Pygmy pythons are required to have the same size as a stimsons that grows to twice the length.... Because that makes sence right?



isnt the rule 20% of the snakes length on the shorter dimension and 50% on the longer dimension?


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> Bury themselves under another layer of newspaper.


 yes but if they come to your house and cant find anything wrong. will they then fine you because your enclosures don't have a substrate deep enough to bury in? not hide under but bury in....


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> i dont see how my comments are irrelevant or foolish, every day i see people who 'cant wait till tlhey have enough snakes to fill a rack', theyre not even trying to provide adequate housing, just trying to get a larger number of animals than the next person.
> 
> and i dont care what you think, its the law now, and high time too.
> 
> im off to bake some muffins so i can offer the inspectors a nice muffin with their cup of coffee when they come to my door.



Its not law for a year.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

I was looking at the table they have where it tells you minimum floor size.


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## colubridking (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> i dont see how my comments are irrelevant or foolish, every day i see people who 'cant wait till tlhey have enough snakes to fill a rack', theyre not even trying to provide adequate housing, just trying to get a larger number of animals than the next person.
> 
> and i dont care what you think, its the law now, and high time too.
> 
> im off to bake some muffins so i can offer the inspectors a nice muffin with their cup of coffee when they come to my door.



hahaha laters mate.

regarding the filling of a rack for the sake of it - i have no issues with racks really, they work very well and ive used them in the past to great success for a number of reasons with a number of animals, they work hands down. the odd people that buy a rack and fill it with what seems to be the new "hot snake" or what people tell them they should get are just stupid and shouldnt have snakes or lizards in the first place...i doubt a code of practice regarding enclosure sizes will stop the immature "know it alls" and if it does they will probably just become underground anyway like the majority of them go.


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> isnt the rule 20% of the snakes length on the shorter dimension and 50% on the longer dimension?



I dont think so.

How I read it, it will go like this:
Pygmy pythons according to Table A6 are a Cat A animal. 
According to Table 2 one Cat A animal after 18 months of age will require an area of 0.15m2.
So of this area of 0.15m2, the shortest side cant be less than 20% of the total length of the biggest snake (Standard 4.3.1.1).
If you keep more than 2 in the cage, you will have to add 50% to the 0.15m2, three snakes add 70% (Standard 4.3.1.5).

So after the 18 months of age it goes into an adult cage size (Standard 4.3.1.4), to be honest I dont know why Appendix B was added to document, so far I cant see any references to it.


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

Bushfire said:


> I dont think so.
> 
> How I read it, it will go like this:
> Pygmy pythons according to Table A6 are a Cat A animal.
> ...




They're going to have to give a maths lesson with every license issued and renewed.

I read that as:
If billy has 3 apples and tom has 7 apples then monkeys dont eat burgers at easter in the barn equals pumpkin seed


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

=bECS= said:


> I read that as:
> If billy has 3 apples and tom has 7 apples then monkeys dont eat burgers at easter in the barn equals pumpkin seed


 =bECS= you forgot something... and the rooster crows when meat pies are kept at room temperature.  Clear as mud...


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## Skeptic (Mar 26, 2013)

After reading through the COP it seems 'Floor Space' could be made up by shelving. There is no definition under 2.2 for floor space and the standard understanding of floor space is the total combined floor area, i.e a mezzanine adds to the total floor space in a building. Therefore, an enclosure which doesn't meet the requirements could be modified by adding a shelf. This could still easily satisfy 4.3.1.1 regarding the shortest floor dimension mnot being less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed.


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## saximus (Mar 26, 2013)

Skeptic said:


> After reading through the COP it seems 'Floor Space' could be made up by shelving. There is no definition under 2.2 for floor space and the standard understanding of floor space is the total combined floor area, i.e a mezzanine adds to the total floor space in a building. Therefore, an enclosure which doesn't meet the requirements could be modified by adding a shelf. This could still easily satisfy 4.3.1.1 regarding the shortest floor dimension mnot being less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed.



Unfortunately not. Underneath each of the tables it says:
"The minimum area refers to the size of the enclosure measured externally and does not include additional surfaces within the enclosure such as shelves."


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## Skeptic (Mar 26, 2013)

saximus said:


> Unfortunately not. Underneath each of the tables it says:
> "The minimum area refers to the size of the enclosure measured externally and does not include additional surfaces within the enclosure such as shelves."




Oops, missed that bit. Damn!


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## mummabear (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> actually, i have upside down terracotta saucers in all the cages, 2 in the bigger ones. i mist them every night till theres a good puddle on each, and they dry out during the day so they do get fresh water daily.
> 
> i see the geckos using them quite often, which i didnt expect, but they do...
> 
> (it was actually a pic u posted of ur amyae drinking from a bowl that insipred me to try it,...)



I don't believe having water the night before would satisfy their prosecutable standards. We both know they only need to be sprayed. 
Mine was drinking from the bowl because i had just sprayed it.


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

so theres some ridiculous stuff and quite a bit of confusing stuff in there too,....yes, i will need to make some changes, (not with minimum sizes), but with water bowls, substrates they can totally bury themselves in etc,...

the part i was hoping to see this change was the people who are dying to fill racks so they have more animals than their aps friends,....for the rest i'll have to jump thru hoops like the rest of you.


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## Snowman (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> so theres some ridiculous stuff and quite a bit of confusing stuff in there too,....yes, i will need to make some changes, (not with minimum sizes), but with water bowls, substrates they can totally bury themselves in etc,...
> 
> the part i was hoping to see this change was the people who are dying to fill racks so they have more animals than their aps friends,....for the rest i'll have to jump thru hoops like the rest of you.



geez let it go already Chris  I feel like setting up more racks just cause you are so against them!
Get your own animals up to code THEN worry about what other people do, if that's your thing in life...


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## SamNabz (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> so theres some ridiculous stuff and quite a bit of confusing stuff in there too,....yes, i will need to make some changes, (not with minimum sizes), but with water bowls, substrates they can totally bury themselves in etc,...
> 
> the part i was hoping to see this change was the people who are dying to fill racks so they have more animals than their aps friends,....for the rest i'll have to jump thru hoops like the rest of you.



You really should think before you post... What's with you and saying "people who are dying to fill racks"? People don't use racks so they can dump multiple amounts of reptiles in the one space...

There are plenty of pros for using racks, and even with these new laws, there are still plenty of rack systems that can legally hold many species of reptile. I for one use racks (as well as enclosures) and don't need to change anything according to this COP.

Get off your high horse and worry about yourself.


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## Snowman (Mar 26, 2013)

SamNabz said:


> You really should think before you post... What's with you and saying "people who are dying to fill racks"? People don't use racks so they can dump multiple amounts of reptiles in the one space...
> 
> There are plenty of pros for using racks, and even with these new laws, there are still plenty of rack systems that can legally hold many species of reptile. I for one use racks (as well as enclosures) and don't need to change anything according to this COP.
> 
> Get off your high horse and worry about yourself.



We are all at different levels in the hobby. Some are better informed than others. When you look at breeders like Brian from snake bytes it seems there is little to worry about with the right rack systems. Chris is merely applying her anthropomorphic views on the subject...


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Snowman said:


> geez let it go already Chris  I feel like setting up more racks just cause you are so against them!
> Get your own animals up to code THEN worry about what other people do, if that's your thing in life...



i believe im allowed to respond to comments directed at me,...


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

some people just post for the attention.... sad really


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

read thru the rack threads and i promise you will see plenty of people saying they cant wait till they have enough snakes to fill racks.

i agree racks have a place, but not as intended permanent houseing for all their animals.



SamNabz said:


> You really should think before you post... What's with you and saying "people who are dying to fill racks"? People don't use racks so they can dump multiple amounts of reptiles in the one space...
> 
> There are plenty of pros for using racks, and even with these new laws, there are still plenty of rack systems that can legally hold many species of reptile. I for one use racks (as well as enclosures) and don't need to change anything according to this COP.
> 
> Get off your high horse and worry about yourself.


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## Snowman (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> i believe im allowed to respond to comments directed at me,...


The comment you made about APS users trying to fill racks to have more animals than other members of this site is a fictitious statement at best. It might be important to you how many animals you keep compared to the rest of us. But it means nothing to me. I use racks and you have no idea how many snakes I keep and you never will..... Stick to the facts and everyone is happy.

PS.. if people were liking your posts you would obviously have some support. But it seems the opposite is happening at present.


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Snowman said:


> We are all at different levels in the hobby. Some are better informed than others. When you look at breeders like Brian from snake bytes it seems there is little to worry about with the right rack systems. Chris is merely applying her anthropomorphic views on the subject...



lol, when did i say snakes need cuddles?


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

anyway, muffins are ready, i have work to do, i'll check back in later.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> read thru the rack threads and i promise you will see plenty of people saying they cant wait till they have enough snakes to fill racks.
> 
> i agree racks have a place, but not as intended permanent houseing for all their animals.



What about breeders? You can't honestly expect them to house every herp in its own separate fancy enclosure. I think you are forgetting that a snakes favourite place in the wild is lodged inside a rock.


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## Snowman (Mar 26, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> What about breeders? You can't honestly expect them to house every herp in its own separate fancy enclosure. I think you are forgetting that a snakes favourite place in the wild is lodged inside a rock.




You are assuming that this person has experience with wild herpetofauna? LOL


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

Snowman said:


> You are assuming that this person has experience with wild herpetofauna? LOL



My mistake.


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## Stuart (Mar 26, 2013)

Sigh....

Theres been some great discussion but its turning into a bit of a dig at individual personal views...


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## Snowman (Mar 26, 2013)

SniperCap said:


> Sigh....
> 
> Theres been some great discussion but its turning into a bit of a dig at individual personal views...


Sorry I'm part of that. Delete my posts...

I feel that everyone should let people do what they like. Casting comments that APS users are buying racks and cant wait to fill them is no ones business but the owner of the rack. Stick to the facts at hand and leave personal opinions of what others do off the screen I say.....


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> What about breeders? You can't honestly expect them to house every herp in its own separate fancy enclosure. I think you are forgetting that a snakes favourite place in the wild is lodged inside a rock.



Some breeders do just that,me included.I just don't like the interference from the department and having them tell me what's best.Seems all they are interested in is changing the goal posts for everyone that does the right thing while seemingly ignoring the things that really matter like poaching,exotics and smuggling etc.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

Does anyone know who to email if we would like to say something about this? Instead of sitting her complaining I want to write a polite email. While I thing minimum enclosure sizes are a good idea I think it should be based on the size of the reptile. I think their 20% x 50% would be a much better idea.

Dont get me wrong I doubt the email will be read let alone acted on but I want to try and do something.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 26, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Does anyone know who to email if we would like to say something about this? Instead of sitting her complaining I want to write a polite email. While I thing minimum enclosure sizes are a good idea I think it should be based on the size of the reptile. I think their 20% x 50% would be a much better idea.



It's done and dusted and was always going to be the case when petshops came into the picture.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

Just measured my enclosures, most have a lot bigger than required but my womas are in a .38m2 enclosure, even though they are Tanami womas this doesn't meet regulations even though it's not much smaller than required for the larger localities


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Does anyone know who to email if we would like to say something about this? Instead of sitting her complaining I want to write a polite email.


Try [email protected]. Or, if you want to get political, contact your local member for NSW (not Federal).


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks Zip I'll try shooting them an email when I have a little more time.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

Heres what I sent:

To whom it may concern,

After reading the new codes of practice I would like to make some points for your consideration.

Firstly I think the codes of practice in general are a good idea but some points make little to no sense. 

Regarding enclosure sizes, a Antarisia stimsoni and an Antaresia perthensis are both listed as a catagory A python and as such require a floor are of .15m2 however a perthensis only grows to half the size of a stimsoni. I can understand why a stimsoni would require that amount of space but not the perthensis.

That is only the start, from there Aspidites ramsayi are a category C and require .4m2, that is fine for the larger localities but what about the Tanami womas that grow to a much smaller size than womas from other localities and yet require the same floor area. On the locality issue many examples could be given on the varying sizes between localities.

Another point is that an adult coastal carpet may well exceed the size of a two year old olive python but they require a smaller enclosure, add fussy feeders into the equation and this difference becomes ever greater.

I could give many more examples of why the current enclosure size system is faulty but I think I have made my point. Would it not be more practical to make the minimum enclosure size based on the size of the snake or lizard in question? For example if you have a minimum enclosure size of 20% x 50% of the length of the snake, by this we would have an enclosure size that fits all snakes regardless of its locality and growth rate.

Just thought I would send this to you for your thoughts.

Kind regards,

Timm
Pretty sure it will do no good but atleast I have tried to have my say.


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## solar 17 (Mar 26, 2013)

l am in QLD but my Bredli are in enclosures 75 cm square by 200cm tall, would they pass ??? solar 17


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

no idea baden....... its giving me a headache trying to understand.......... for me i need to "see" what they want,not just read it and hope for the best


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## treeofgreen (Mar 26, 2013)

Feel sorry for you guys down in NSW...

More gov control is only ever a good thing right????


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

what about the Mt Isa carpets that worley is selling??? they grow just over a metre,do they need(because they are carpets) a space of a coastal???


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

It would well and truly pass on my Maths.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 26, 2013)

Just to be clear about this, the committee made up of representatives to support KEEPERS in NSW and negotiate on their behalf had NO PROBLEM with RECOMMENDED minimum sizes. We were unanimously of the belief that the Department should deliver more in the way of education and advice, rather than hammer the issue with a big legal stick, i.e., make it punishable by law if you choose (often because you know more about the circumstances of your animals) to do something other than what the bureaucrats recommend.

And Chris1, I hope to hell your muffins are mouldy and toxic by the time they get around to seeing you. You really can be a lightweight sometimes, you have no idea the amount of time and discussion these people (far more knowledgeable than you will ever be) put into pushing the case for keepers in NSW. For me, it also involved the expenditure of 10 hours travel and related fuel and vehicle costs every time we met, both with the department and between ourselves. You are doing what you do here simply to aggravate other members. Very much a case of "I'm all right Jack, bugger the rest of you" I think. You present a very good reason why the development of a national body to represent the interests of keepers will never work - there are always heaps of self-interested people like yourself who can't ever see another point of view.

Jamie


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

now that everyone has calmed down it seems the min cage size isn't as bad as everyone was making out and you can still use tubs where appropriate...


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

RC_CoP feedback


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

I don't mind them for the most part but enclosure size should be based on THE SIZE OF THE REPTILE not just a generic value.


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## Zipidee (Mar 26, 2013)

It's so frustrating. But we should calm down. I have had similar problems working with government departments (not herp related I should stress), mounting a case, spending hours doing research and playing the bureaucratic games, only to have the suit-wearers ignore the recommendations and do their own thing. But you know what... the suit-wearers get nervous when people play the game by THEIR rules. I'll say it again - to the fans and the critics of these guidelines: the best way to go is print out the docs, read them and understand your rights. Do your homework. The best people to tackle the nonsense in these guidelines are *responsible herp keepers*. If they find no major compliance issues, this thing will go away. There will be no budget and no auditing. If they find terrible keepers (and they should be out of the business anyway) then we can expect more attention. If we stick together, do the right thing, I reckon it'll all go away like it has elsewhere. And Pythoninfinite, as a keeper, I'd like to say thanks for the work you did in putting the case forward for a cooperative approach. Really appreciate your efforts.


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

Umbral said:


> I don't mind them for the most part but enclosure size should be based on THE SIZE OF THE REPTILE not just a generic value.


even the generic values aren't that far off what most people keep and recommend... I cant see the problem


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> RC_CoP feedback



Its a nice article but your tub for male Morelia wont meet the standard it will need to go into the boa one you mentioned. As for the hieght of these at 24cm suppose depending on how you present your climbing space and the mood of the officer they could find that that isn't meeting Standard 4.1.1.3.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> even the generic values aren't that far off what most people keep and recommend... I cant see the problem


A stimulus grows to about 1.1m and a Pygmy to about 50cm yet they require the same enclosure size? A gouldii gouldii grows much larger than a gouldii flavi etc etc.


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## reptilezac (Mar 26, 2013)

I thin its silly can I keep my blue tongue and beardie still in the 4ft x 1ft x 1ft still ?


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## junglepython2 (Mar 26, 2013)

Are these regs based on any shred of evidence? Is there any studies based on cage size vs animal welfare? Or was it designed by a knob with a ruler?


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

bushy...there is no height requirements in their measurements mate,only length x width.... so going by that,then 24cm is fine


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

jacorin said:


> bushy...there is no height requirements in their measurements mate,only length x width.... so going by that,then 24cm is fine



You are partly right in that there is no measurement written for height but read Standard 4.1.1.3.. "An enclosure housing a species that normally climbs (see Appendix A) must have sufficient useable vertical space for the reptile to climb". The authorised officers that will enforce this will range in experience some will be scared and some will be keepers, but by and large the majority wont be that clued on. This standard has left it open to their interpreptation and you as the keeper will probably have to covience them that 24cm is providing sufficient useable vertical space.

If you can do that then no worries but you will run the risk that the unknowledgeable authorised officer will want more space.

P.S There is no right or wrong answers here an officer may turn around and said anything less than 200cm isnt enough, its the unknown factor of the officer who will decide this.


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## =bECS= (Mar 26, 2013)

As far as compliance goes, you would think if you are found non complaint they would give you a small time frame to be up to standard before seizing your reptiles. 

I can't see them bagging everything up and leaving with it then and there, it means more paperwork and they would have to hold the animals in a manner that meets their own compliance standards whilst they organise ballots and the like.


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Very much a case of "I'm all right Jack, bugger the rest of you" I think.
> 
> Jamie



Quite the opposite actually, ive spent the past 5 years getting myself into a house i can barely afford the mortgage on so i can upgrade enclosures (i cant really afford either) to the required sizes since i knew this was coming and there was bugger all i could do about it.
all snake purchases were put on hold,....and now that the sizes are far more reasonable than i originally anticipated it looks like i might even be able to add one or 2 more.

sure my first few comments were maybe a bit light hearted, but that cos the cage sizes werent half as bad as they were originally, and therefore didnt expect this thread to become quite so serious.

ps. the muffins are far to tasty and unless they hurry they'll be gone long before any inspectors make it to my place,....


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

yeh your right there too bushy,each officer will have their own interpretations,which will be hard to figure out


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## benjamind2010 (Mar 26, 2013)

My rack system tubs are 85.1cm by 44.5cm which is 3.75m/sq or thereabouts. Bummer, if the specs are correct it should be 4m/sq
Womas are classed as 1.5-2m (C) which in the case of my adults, is wrong, since mine only got to 1.5m and should really be classed as B since they don't get any longer than 1.5m.
I'm going to ditch the tubs and get 4ft enclosures anyway since mine don't seem to like being kept in tubs; when the summer ends the males start going crazy and need more space IMHO.


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## pythonmum (Mar 26, 2013)

Just read the code and made the rounds of the house with my tape measure....

The standard for size refers to the floor OR back wall of a python enclosure. The floor space of one of my Darwin enclosures does not quite make the new mandate, but the front wall does. The back wall is smaller because it is made from a weirdly-shaped old TV cabinet. I'd like to see the officers do the mathematics to figure out the floor size and wonder if they would be sticklers about which wall is adequately sized. I fit into the enclosure, so I think it is suitable housing for my Darwin. Given that Darwins are arboreal and need suitable climbing opportunities, I assume that the wall bit would be relevant, as long as the depth is not less than 20% of the length of the animal (which it is not). 

I was most relieved to discover that my 7 litre sistema tubs are suitable up to 18 months based on floor area.

Despite the fact that my enclosures all seem to be compliant, I still object to the mandatory enclosure sizes. It is very frustrating the way the herp societies have been shut out of the discussion. The AHS has been fighting to be part of it for more than a year, but to no avail. After the initial consultation, herp societies and knowledgeable professionals were shut out. This is not how an appropriate consultation should be run.

PS benjamind - my womas are only 1.4 or 1.5 metres, but still stuck with the longer assumption.


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## jairusthevirus21 (Mar 26, 2013)

Most of this seems common sense or at least common practice... So far I disagree with the minimum cage sizes. This should be a recommended guideline more than anything. Considering my over 4 meter Scrubby lives in a 300x300x350 hide box must of the time...


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## CantBeatALBINOS (Mar 26, 2013)

does this apply to SA or what..?/: haha


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

benjamind2010 said:


> My rack system tubs are 85.1cm by 44.5cm which is 3.75m/sq or thereabouts. Bummer, if the specs are correct it should be 4m/sq
> Womas are classed as 1.5-2m (C) which in the case of my adults, is wrong, since mine only got to 1.5m and should really be classed as B since they don't get any longer than 1.5m.
> I'm going to ditch the tubs and get 4ft enclosures anyway since mine don't seem to like being kept in tubs; when the summer ends the males start going crazy and need more space IMHO.


.85m x .44m = .374m2 on my calicuations. Then again my maths isn't great.


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## reptilezac (Mar 26, 2013)

I think the rule is kinda silly I mean people keep birds in tiny little cages how about they check them cause we have a lot more rules to follow then other keepers of different animals imo


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## jairusthevirus21 (Mar 26, 2013)

Not yet... Although our SA environment department are more than reasonable...


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## CantBeatALBINOS (Mar 26, 2013)

oh so it doesnt? killa! haha


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 26, 2013)

Can someone please tell me, will a 45x30x30cm enclosure be ok for 2-3 B class geckos (arboreal, 45cm is the height) ?
Also is a 100x40cm ok for 2 B class dragons?


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## reptilezac (Mar 26, 2013)

How do u tell the classes are are they the license u hold ?

cause I have thick-tailed gecko and bluetongue and 2 bearded dragon they all class one but are they a b or c ?


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## jacorin (Mar 26, 2013)

ausherps...you leave my birds alone,they do quite well in their cages


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 26, 2013)

AusHerps said:


> How do u tell the classes are are they the license u hold ?
> 
> cause I have thick-tailed gecko and bluetongue and 2 bearded dragon they all class one but are they a b or c ?



Thick-tailed are B class Geckos and Beardys are D class Dragons


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 26, 2013)

For those like me who cannot be bothered with the math here is an online calculator
Online Conversion - Area calculator
Maybe the mods could put something like that as a sticky

LOL after figuring it all out it looks like I will be ok, as long as I swap a few species around (those that need swapping will suffer for it though  ).


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> Can someone please tell me, will a 45x30x30cm enclosure be ok for 2-3 B class geckos (arboreal, 45cm is the height) ?
> Also is a 100x40cm ok for 2 B class dragons?



Based on my calculations those size enclosure would be well over the minimum standard.

Wing_Nut


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 26, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> Based on my calculations those size enclosure would be well over the minimum standard.
> 
> Wing_Nut



Thanks for that


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## caleb96 (Mar 26, 2013)

That's just silly about the UV lighting the snakes don't even need it was of money there.
And do they expect us to make little enclosures instead of hatchling racks to keep our hatchlings in?
Most breeders only have there hatchlings for 6 months max unless they hold some back to yearlings and then sell them off?
Not being about to use racks and having to make little enclosures that's just a waste of time and money.

Caleb.


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

caleb96 said:


> That's just silly about the UV lighting the snakes don't even need it was of money there.
> And do they expect us to make little enclosures instead of hatchling racks to keep our hatchlings in?
> Most breeders only have there hatchlings for 6 months max unless they hold some back to yearlings and then sell them off?
> Not being about to use racks and having to make little enclosures that's just a waste of time and money.
> ...



why cant you use racks for hatchlings under 6months?


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## Rob (Mar 26, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> For those like me who cannot be bothered with the math here is an online calculator
> Online Conversion - Area calculator
> Maybe the mods could put something like that as a sticky



If someone wants to make a post outlining the key points of the new legislation, including an online calculator, etc., I will definitely look at making it a sticky.

I would do it myself but my time will be a little tight for the next few days.


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## saintanger (Mar 26, 2013)

5.4.1.1 A light cycle (i.e. alternation between light and dark periods) must be maintained that is appropriate for the species being housed. 

so we all need to get clear day lights or uv lights and give them a day and night time.

i personally use ceramic lights as they last longer and have my enclosures facing windows they they get heaps of light for all pythons. so this means i have to re wire alot of enclosures.

so does this means you can't keep pythons in tubs as you need to give them a day and night cycle.


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## caleb96 (Mar 26, 2013)

I wasn't sure i thought they weren't going to allow any rack systems at all?


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## Glimmerman (Mar 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> ''animals need substrate deep enough to be able to bury themselves'' no more newspaper......



PuraChips Professional Aspen Bedding anyone :lol:

I was actually quite surprised when reading this, as opposed to the original draft, I dont see an issue with these enclosure sizes for pythons. 

In relation to fines... Be interesting to see if that is a one off $3000 fine or a $3000 fine per each breach of non-compliance. Expensive exercise if you have a bank of 4 enclosures undersize.


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## caleb96 (Mar 26, 2013)

Where do you fined all the size cages recommended for all the different species could someone point me in the right direction please?

Cheers Caleb.


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## Glimmerman (Mar 26, 2013)

saintanger said:


> 5.4.1.1 A light cycle (i.e. alternation between light and dark periods) must be maintained that is appropriate for the species being housed.
> 
> 
> so does this means you can't keep pythons in tubs as you need to give them a day and night cycle.



Why cant you have a day/night cycle in tubs? Mine do. My whole herp room is on a day/night cycle.


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

jairusthevirus21 said:


> Not yet... Although our SA environment department are more than reasonable...


I wouldn't be counting your chickens just yet... SA environment department is currently doing research to try and map the DNA of all Morelia sub species. I quote ''so it can be used in a court of law as evidence to prove Morelia sub species crosses'' this was the email I received from the director when I spoke to them about that whole bredli jag situation that went down.


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## saintanger (Mar 26, 2013)

i'v just never seen any tubs with day lights, just heat matts and heat cords. 

do you mean lights in the tubs or just a room light? 

also do you have pics am interested.


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## Glimmerman (Mar 26, 2013)

I created this overview for me as a reference. This is just in relation to pythons as that is all I primarily deal with. 
Mods: Feel free to delete if mods dont want it here.


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

Glimmerman said:


> PuraChips Professional Aspen Bedding anyone :lol:
> 
> I was actually quite surprised when reading this, as opposed to the original draft, I dont see an issue with these enclosure sizes for pythons.
> 
> In relation to fines... Be interesting to see if that is a one off $3000 fine or a $3000 fine per each breach of non-compliance. Expensive exercise if you have a bank of 4 enclosures undersize.



considering its only a $30000 fine for trying to smuggle reptiles into the country I doubt it would be per breach


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## champagne (Mar 26, 2013)

Glimmerman said:


> I created this overview for me as a reference. This is just in relation to pythons as that is all I primarily deal with.
> Mods: Feel free to delete if mods dont want it here.


 post#137 think it got missed in all the excitement


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## caleb96 (Mar 26, 2013)

What size enclosures are Tanami woma's and Diamond intergrades going to need?

Caleb.


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## Glimmerman (Mar 26, 2013)

saintanger said:


> i'v just never seen any tubs with day lights, just heat matts and heat cords.
> 
> do you mean lights in the tubs or just a room light?
> 
> also do you have pics am interested.



No I dont have lights in the tubs but they can very easily get a day / night variation. I have daylight fluorescent globes attached to an industrial timer on the ceiling, and habistat sun switches connected to the heat cords. Therefore they also receive a temp variation in line with the day/nigh variation.

View attachment 286496


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## Cotter (Mar 26, 2013)

Am I off my head? Olive enclosure size 1.225(3.5) X 0.2(3.5) = 4.28 X 0.7?? and a Scrubbie 0.5(3.5) X 0.2(3.5) = 1.75 X 0.7....
Am I understanding this right or should I swap my olive for a scubbie?

Leigh


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## caleb96 (Mar 26, 2013)

*New Enclosure laws?*

Hey guys haven't been able to find where it tells you the size of cages you will need for all the different species of reptiles its starting to worry me that ill have to build all new enclosures and that a lot of time and money will go down the drain because of it?

Cheers Caleb.


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## Varanoidea (Mar 26, 2013)

Code of practice for the private keeping of reptiles | NSW Environment & Heritage

Code of Practise download at the bottom of the page.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

The measurement 1.225 that's on the table indicates the minimum area required for that category. It's there for the first one of each category. In this case olives and scrubbies need to be 1.7x0.7.

Wing_Nut


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## Bushfire (Mar 26, 2013)

I've looked over and over this document at least 15 times and cant find any references to Appendix B, so I would suggest forget about Appendix B if anything it kinda shows how they came up with the area, but do yourself a favour throw it out / ignore it. Stay focused on the Tables 1, 2, 3 and Appendix A.

Olives and scrubbies are Cat E pythons (Appendix A) so therefore require an area (one per cage, aged over 18 months) of 1.225m2.

If you still focused on Appendix B you will see that 1.75m x 0.7m = 1.225m2 the min cage size. But the cage doesn't have to be 1.75m x 0.7m but the size either floor or back wall (being scrubbies are climbers) has to be 1.225m2.


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## Umbral (Mar 26, 2013)

caleb96 said:


> What size enclosures are Tanami woma's and Diamond intergrades going to need?
> 
> Caleb.


Have a read of the document, it's all in there and you will need to know it. That's what all of us have done to get the info.


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## caleb96 (Mar 26, 2013)

Yep cheers just did i think some of its just silly all my enclosures are fine for the snakes i have then they bring in this new stuff that's just going to take up space, take more of your money and people will loose some of there reptiles as they wont have the room for enclosures of that size. All my womas are doing fine in 1200x600x600 they don't even need it at 600 high i have my uncle coming down this weekend for easter and he is helping me make two enclosures out of the one halving the 600 high i'm not going to folk out all this money for enclosure space that they don't even need.

Caleb.


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## saintanger (Mar 26, 2013)

i have day light fluorescent globes in my garage, shed and lounge room. so that would count as day time as long as i give them 6 hours during the day even though its not in the enclosure.


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## geckoman1985 (Mar 26, 2013)

This is a bit crazzy mine are well big then the suggested sizes but was wondering if I am still able to use marine carpit for my pythons floor and we now need to have light and heat for every thing what about if it from cooler climates I know for some reptiles like southern leaf tails it can get to hot in summer just in the ammbiant air


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## saintanger (Mar 26, 2013)

geckoman1985 said:


> This is a bit crazzy mine are well big then the suggested sizes but was wondering if I am still able to use marine carpit for my pythons floor and we now need to have light and heat for every thing what about if it from cooler climates I know for some reptiles like southern leaf tails it can get to hot in summer just in the ammbiant air



i doubt it cause apparently we need substrate that they can burry themselves in. even though marine carpet is great and easy to wash i use it with my dogs.


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## reptilezac (Mar 26, 2013)

is a 30x30x30 cage still okay for a thick-tailed gecko and do we need to supplie heat cause my room is the right temp for it :/


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

So long as your substrate keeps the reptile clean and dry and can be readily replaced or cleaned when soiled then that appears to meet the requirements of the code. 

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## reptilezac (Mar 26, 2013)

Help ?


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## geckoman1985 (Mar 26, 2013)

I have a bredli and use it for years in Queensland with out an issue easy to clean and not to rough on them I an concerned about using sand with pythons as it can cause other issues as for size of every thing I will be ok maybe. Sand it good substrate for some things but not all velvety I don't keep on sand as it can damage there feet. As 
for bark flooring never use it on young lizards as thay can get it stuck in there mouths. Thing like hatchy dragon and gex don't want large aira as can put them of feeding if there to large sadly this is what the world comes to when to meny people vote for the greens lol won't be long now befor camping and 4x4 ing are not aloud as well.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

saintanger said:


> i doubt it cause apparently we need substrate that they can burry themselves in. even though marine carpet is great and easy to wash i use it with my dogs.



I believe the code clearly states the animals that require substrate that they can burrow in. None of the python species are listed as requiring this. 

Regards 

Wing_Nut


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## mungus (Mar 26, 2013)

So how do we determine the height of enclosure for each snake type ?


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## saintanger (Mar 26, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> I believe the code clearly states the animals that require substrate that they can burrow in. None of the python species are listed as requiring this.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Wing_Nut



thanks for the correction, i thought it applied to any reptile that burrows and alot of my pythons burry themselves in their substrate


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## caleb96 (Mar 26, 2013)

So Please correct me if i'm wrong but the minimum enclosure size for most pythons is 4x2x2?

Cheers Caleb.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

caleb96 said:


> So Please correct me if i'm wrong but the minimum enclosure size for most pythons is 4x2x2?
> 
> Cheers Caleb.



Python enclosure sizes are listed on page 32 of the COP. They vary from 0.5 x 0.3 to 1.75 x 0.7.

Regards 

Wing_Nut


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## mungus (Mar 26, 2013)

mungus said:


> So how do we determine the height of enclosure for each snake type ?



so does the back wall ( height of enclosure ) need to be the same as the floor space area ?


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 26, 2013)

mungus said:


> so does the back wall ( height of enclosure ) need to be the same as the floor space area ?



That's a little bit less clear, the code says either the floor or back wall area. That would require further clarification in my opinion. 

Regards 

Wing_Nut


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## Xanthine (Mar 27, 2013)

Oddly enough, while the minimum sizes for some lizards and snakes seem to be inflated, the ones for turtles are slightly appalling. 2 fully grown Maclaeys in a 3x2?! 2 Murrays in a 4x2. Really, way to small to actually be good for the turtles.


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## Bushfire (Mar 27, 2013)

No it doesn't have to be. They havent put any measures to height. The code says if the species you keep is a climber you can use either the floor or back wall as the measurement for the standards. For those that aren't like womas etc it must be the floor area.

The part that is open ended is if you have a species that is identified as a climber you must provide sufficent usable verticle space to climb.


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## Xanthine (Mar 27, 2013)

solar 17 said:


> l am in QLD but my Bredli are in enclosures 75 cm square by 200cm tall, would they pass ??? solar 17



Sorry, Baden, needs to be at least 90x60. You're a bad keeper and should feel bad.

*sarcasm*

But yeah, doesn't meet the requirements.

Also, if the dimensions are measured on the outside, I wonder what bright spark will think of using wood 30cm thick?


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## markannab (Mar 27, 2013)

Can someone help me understand the cage size calculations on the last page? For example, a Spotted comes under "A". Average body size: 0.5-1.0m (mine is over a metre already). But the cage size is: 0.5(1.0) x 0.3(1.0) = 0.5 x 0.3.

What are the figures in brackets? What are the figures not in brackets? I'm a little confused how to work this out.

Incidentally, coastal carpets are said to have an average adult length of 2.0 to 2.5m. What if they grow much larger - as mine is clearly going to be? Can it still live in the enclosure size specified?

Thanks for any help,
Mark.


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## saximus (Mar 27, 2013)

markannab said:


> Can someone help me understand the cage size calculations on the last page? For example, a Spotted comes under "A". Average body size: 0.5-1.0m (mine is over a metre already). But the cage size is: 0.5(1.0) x 0.3(1.0) = 0.5 x 0.3.
> 
> What are the figures in brackets? What are the figures not in brackets? I'm a little confused how to work this out.



The figures in brackets are the "maximum" length of the animal. The figures not in brackets are the minimum requirements for enclosure dimensions. So it is saying 50% of the max length of the snake times 30% of the max length of the snake are the minimum requirements


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## Rob (Mar 27, 2013)

saximus said:


> The figures in brackets are the "maximum" length of the animal. The figures not in brackets are the minimum requirements for enclosure dimensions. So it is saying 50% of the max length of the snake times 30% of the max length of the snake are the minimum requirements



Thanks for that. You've made sense of some pretty confusing stuff.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 27, 2013)

markannab said:


> Can someone help me understand the cage size calculations on the last page? For example, a Spotted comes under "A". Average body size: 0.5-1.0m (mine is over a metre already). But the cage size is: 0.5(1.0) x 0.3(1.0) = 0.5 x 0.3.
> 
> What are the figures in brackets? What are the figures not in brackets? I'm a little confused how to work this out.
> 
> ...



The figures in brackets refers to the adult size of the animal by the standard. The number outside the brackets represents the proportional size the enclosure should be based on the adult length. 0.5 is half etc

There is a guideline that suggests you should make allowances for individuals that are larger than the standard however that is not a requirement. 

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## Umbral (Mar 27, 2013)

Which brings us to the point I was trying to make, why wouldn't you just use their formula and insert the length of your reptile and bingo you have a better formula than trying to say, well they might get this big or say all localities grow to the same size.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 27, 2013)

That would be something only the department could explain fully. Both methods have there pitfalls and merits. 

Regards 

Wing_Nut


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## Rob (Mar 27, 2013)

So the table B2 says for woma (C): 0.5(2.0) x 0.2(2.0) = 1.0 x 0.40

Does this mean the minimum requirement for a Woma is 1000mm long x 400mm deep ?


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## DaReptileBoy (Mar 27, 2013)

whats the min size for 1 eastern water skink myne is about 20cm long atm


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, the minimum size is 1000mm x 400mm. 

Regards 

Wing_Nut


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## saximus (Mar 27, 2013)

...


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 27, 2013)

DaReptileBoy said:


> whats the min size for 1 eastern water skink myne is about 20cm long atm



30cm x 20cm. 

On a side note, have you read the code and don't understand it, or just not read it? It is sounding more and more that people are finding it very confusing. That's going to make things interesting for the department if its too confusing for average Joe!

Regards 

Wing_Nut


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## caleb96 (Mar 27, 2013)

I read it and i find it really confusing.

Caleb.


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## DaReptileBoy (Mar 27, 2013)

where can I find the code?


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## saximus (Mar 27, 2013)

DaReptileBoy said:


> where can I find the code?


First page of this thread.

Why is it so complicated? It's two steps - 
1) Look up appendix A and find which category your species are in. 
2) Look up appendix B for the minimum dimensions.


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## yellowbeard (Mar 27, 2013)

If I have read the COP correctly an Anteresia maculosa adult (Python A) less than 1m in length can be kept in Starmaid Storemate 20L (558x390x145mm manufactures dimensions) and 30L (558x390x217mm manufactures dimensions) tub rack set up.

*Table B2: Snakes 


dir="LTR" border="1" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="7"
|- 
| valign="TOP" style="width: 34%" |
Python 

| valign="TOP" style="width: 22%" |
A 

| valign="TOP" style="width: 22%" |
0.5 – 1.0 

| valign="TOP" style="width: 22%" |
0.5(1.0) x 0.3(1.0) = 0.5 x 0.3 

|-


*

Would this be a correct interpretation of the COP?


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## jacorin (Mar 27, 2013)

ok what are the numbers in brackets.....thats what i'm not understanding......yeh i know,i'm stupid,not smart like the rest of you


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## Rob (Mar 27, 2013)

jacorin said:


> ok what are the numbers in brackets.....thats what i'm not understanding......yeh i know,i'm stupid,not smart like the rest of you



Sax has explained it here: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/nsw-code-practice-released-202513/page/14#post2336987



saximus said:


> The figures in brackets are the "maximum" length of the animal. The figures not in brackets are the minimum requirements for enclosure dimensions. So it is saying 50% of the max length of the snake times 30% of the max length of the snake are the minimum requirements


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## SamNabz (Mar 27, 2013)

I'd love/pay to witness an OEH/DEC officer attempting to measure an elapid to properly ensure the enclosure is of regulation size, because I personally wouldn't accept a "guess" at the length of a reptile if they are trying to prosecute me


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## Umbral (Mar 27, 2013)

They dont need to measure as it goes on species not length.


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## SamNabz (Mar 27, 2013)

Umbral said:


> They dont need to measure as it goes on species not length.



It mentions lengths (e.g. between 0.5 and 1m). Which is why I said I wouldn't accept a guess.


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## MyMitchie (Mar 27, 2013)

SamNabz said:


> I'd love/pay to witness an OEH/DEC officer attempting to measure an elapid to properly ensure the enclosure is of regulation size, because I personally wouldn't accept a "guess" at the length of a reptile if they are trying to prosecute me



Remember they arn't elapids, they have called them Dangerously Venomous. *rolls eyes*


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## Ramsayi (Mar 27, 2013)

The example for "d" category pythons has an enclosure size of 1.25 x 0.5

Am I correct in thinking that you cannot go smaller one of the dimensions while going larger on the other dimension to achieve the floor space needed ?


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## Umbral (Mar 27, 2013)

SamNabz said:


> It mentions lengths (e.g. between 0.5 and 1m). Which is why I said I wouldn't accept a guess.


Look at the minimum size table the lower table is showing how they came to the sizes. We don't actually base the size of the enclosure on the size of the snake, just the area they give us.


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 27, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> The example for "d" category pythons has an enclosure size of 1.25 x 0.5
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that you cannot go smaller one of the dimensions while going larger on the other dimension to achieve the floor space needed ?



You are correct. 

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## saximus (Mar 27, 2013)

MyMitchie said:


> Remember they arn't elapids, they have called them Dangerously Venomous. *rolls eyes*



Why is that wrong? It's a description which allows them to differentiate them from the lower class elapids which aren't considered capable of giving a medically significant bite


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## jacorin (Mar 27, 2013)

Rob72 said:


> Sax has explained it here: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/nsw-code-practice-released-202513/page/14#post2



kool thanks mate,i must have missed it


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## mcbuggsy (Mar 27, 2013)

I agree with you Sax. MyMitchie, read a few herp books. "Dangerously Venomous" is an accurate, clear, correct term to differentiate between a venomous snake that can cause a significant medical illness or death, and a mildly or weakly venomous snake that doesn't. OK? All clear now?


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## mcbuggsy (Mar 27, 2013)

Also not many people have commented about the turtle requirements. The python ones are reasonable I think (mostly) but there is no way that I comply with my turtle ponds. I think I may have to get rid of most of my turtles, but need to try and understand the code a bit better in that regard. Doesn't look good though for turtle keepers.


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## jacorin (Mar 27, 2013)

mustnt be many turtle keepers buggsy


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## saximus (Mar 27, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> The example for "d" category pythons has an enclosure size of 1.25 x 0.5
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that you cannot go smaller one of the dimensions while going larger on the other dimension to achieve the floor space needed ?



You can go smaller on the 1.25 dimension but not the 0.5 dimension because that would go against 4.3.1.1: "The enclosure’s shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed."


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## Ramsayi (Mar 27, 2013)

saximus said:


> You can go smaller on the 1.25 dimension but not the 0.5 dimension because that would go against 4.3.1.1: "The enclosure’s shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed."



That's a relief as I had visions of a lot of enclosures measuring 1.2 long which would have screwed a lot of keepers up.


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## MyMitchie (Mar 27, 2013)

Did not know that! Thanks guys


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## junglepython2 (Mar 27, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Which brings us to the point I was trying to make, why wouldn't you just use their formula and insert the length of your reptile and bingo you have a better formula than trying to say, well they might get this big or say all localities grow to the same size.



That would be too hard to enforce, which is the whole aim of this code. They would have to measure the length of every snake which is often near impossible at the nest of times.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 27, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> That would be too hard to enforce, which is the whole aim of this code. They would have to measure the length of every snake which is often near impossible at the nest of times.



Yup.On top of that I wouldn't want anyone from the department coming in and handling any of our reptiles.It would be bad enough with them coming to do an audit not knowing what other collections they have been to that day.Quarantine would be badly compromised.


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## Umbral (Mar 27, 2013)

It isn't that hard to look at a snake and get a pretty good estimate of its size, it would be a few cm out but I'm sure that wouldn't worry them too much. If it looks like its close then they get you to measure it with string, I don't think it's that hard.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 27, 2013)

Umbral said:


> It isn't that hard to look at a snake and get a pretty good estimate of its size, it would be a few cm out but I'm sure that wouldn't worry them too much. If it looks like its close then they get you to measure it with string, I don't think it's that hard.



You're joking aren't you? You would have no idea of the length of a snake that is coiled up under a basking lamp for example.


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## Umbral (Mar 27, 2013)

If it is then get the keeper to move it. Anyway I'm not about to get baited into an argument which seems to be your intention by starting of with 'Your joking aren't you?'


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## Ramsayi (Mar 27, 2013)

Umbral said:


> If it is then get the keeper to move it. Anyway I'm not about to get baited into an argument which seems to be your intention by starting of with 'Your joking aren't you?'



Not baiting at all.Just replying to your comment about being able to tell the length of a snake,especially to a few cm.


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## borntobnude (Mar 27, 2013)

Having jus read this " code "of practice and knowing that the good folks that wrote it are monitoring us ( or at least are members/subscribers ) I think it would be polite if one or more of them made us aware of their presence and joined in our "discussions ". Probably all three or four threads going on should become involved , As there seems to be a lot of questions NOT being answered or being answered in lots of different ways -- none of which really are the answer or make sense to others . 

And dont go asking me any real specifics because i was happily distracted by a baby bluey wandering around my backyard ,eating my cherry tomatoes , Without a Cage !!


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## jacorin (Mar 27, 2013)

lolol born


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## jairusthevirus21 (Mar 27, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> I wouldn't be counting your chickens just yet... SA environment department is currently doing research to try and map the DNA of all Morelia sub species. I quote ''so it can be used in a court of law as evidence to prove Morelia sub species crosses'' this was the email I received from the director when I spoke to them about that whole bredli jag situation that went down.




I don't see this as a problem... I just hope that the research will be available to the public. Crosses and Jags are no problem to ME but it might be handy when it comes to having to prove 'pure lines'. I'm sure many may be advantaged by this.


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## Tesla (Mar 27, 2013)

What about the keepers who don't come on forums? Will the DPI be sending actual paper copies of the "standard" to the postal addresses of license holders?
The way I see it is you don't know about a new law how are you expected to follow it and bare the penalties if you don't know?


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## christopherR (Mar 27, 2013)

Can some one please help?? I can't for the life of me work the min enclosure size for 3 Angle headed dragon hatchlings also what size for when they are adults?. I am planing to house 3 adults in 122cm high, 122cm long, 61 cm deep.

thanks


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## Wing_Nut (Mar 27, 2013)

christopherR said:


> Can some one please help?? I can't for the life of me work the min enclosure size for 3 Angle headed dragon hatchlings also what size for when they are adults?. I am planing to house 3 adults in 122cm high, 122cm long, 61 cm deep.
> 
> thanks



Three Angle Headed Dragons under the age of 6 months would require and enclosure 0.034m2 in floor space with the smallest dimension being SVL of the animals. Between 6-12 months an enclosure must have an area of 0.051m2 with the minimum dimension being SVL of the animals, and as adults over 12 months they require and enclosure 0.408m2 with the smallest dimension being SVL of the animals. The adult size enclosure your suggesting would be larger than the minimum. A 10L tub would fit the bill for the juveniles.

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## benjamind2010 (Mar 27, 2013)

I'll have to sell my rack (which can house 4 animals) and get a couple of 4 x 2 enclosures to house what will eventually be my collection of 2 womas. I'll be donating one woma to that poor bloke who lost his collection of what was it? 300 animals? So it will basically come down to 2 enclosures. I can build them myself but I'd prefer to get them ready made.

Just one thing I must ask...no price gouging on the enclosures...please please please


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## christopherR (Mar 27, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> Three Angle Headed Dragons under the age of 6 months would require and enclosure 0.034m2 in floor space with the smallest dimension being SVL of the animals. Between 6-12 months an enclosure must have an area of 0.051m2 with the minimum dimension being SVL of the animals, and as adults over 12 months they require and enclosure 0.408m2 with the smallest dimension being SVL of the animals. The adult size enclosure your suggesting would be larger than the minimum. A 10L tub would fit the bill for the juveniles.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Wing_Nut



Thanks Wing_Nut, appreciate it.


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## Umbral (Mar 28, 2013)

Here's the reply I received.


Dear Mr,

Thank you for your email dated 26[SUP]th[/SUP] of March regarding the recently released OEH Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles.

As I’m sure you’re aware, there are a number of different ways in which minimum enclosure sizes for reptiles can be specified. The Queensland code of practice for reptile keepers establishes minimum enclosure sizes based on species and size (e.g. A python of 200cm total length will require a cage with floor space at least 50cm by 100cm). The Victorian code does what you suggest and uses a formula based on the length of the reptile (e.g. Arboreal snakes – For two adult specimens up to 4 m in total length (L = length of the longest specimen): enclosure length = 0.45 L, width = 0.3 L and height = 0.5 L).

The NSW Code adopts a slightly different approach. The Code bases minimum enclosure sizes on reptile body size; however rather than applying a formula (which means the minimum area would increase continually as the animal grows), species are grouped according to their average adult length and each group is assigned a single enclosure size (e.g. a category A python requires a minimum floor area of 0.15 m[SUP]2[/SUP]).

This approach has a number of advantages over a formula. Firstly, it is easier for keepers to understand and comply with as the minimum area remains constant throughout the animal's adult life. Keepers don’t have to worry about their enclosure falling below the minimum standard for area as the animal grows.

It is also easier from a compliance perspective as it is not necessary to measure the animal to determine whether the floor area is appropriate. This has important animal welfare benefits as it would be difficult to maintain effective quarantine controls if multiple reptiles were being handled. Also, there would be safety implications if dangerously venomous snakes and large varanids had to be handled.

The NSW approach also improves on the limited species-specific scheme used by Queensland as it covers the full suite of reptile species in captivity rather than just a subset.

As you correctly point out, this approach also means that species which grow to different sizes can have the same minimum enclosure requirements. The range of body sizes in each category was selected so that the difference between the smallest and largest species was not too large and the total number of categories was manageable (i.e. there weren’t hundreds of categories).

On the issue of varying sizes between localities, if there is a locality that is significantly shorter than the species average and readily identifiable then there may be a case for placing it in a different category. NPWS is happy to consider these issues as the Code is reviewed and updated in the future.

The Code sets standards for a wide range of different reptiles and therefore has to be fairly general. It does not attempt to account for every individual reptile in every circumstance. Rather it establishes a simple baseline which is designed to assist keepers with providing appropriate housing and care for their pet reptiles.

Should you have any further enquiries please contact us on[email protected]

Sounds like they are open to ideas so I'm pretty happy with the response. Like I said I'm pretty happy with the code but there should be some minor changes.


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## ShaunMorelia (Mar 28, 2013)

Very interesting.

I wonder what Code I should comply with for my Diamond x Jungle. C? or D?
Difference being I can keep C's in a 1000x500 and D's need a 1250x500.


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## Umbral (Mar 28, 2013)

What is it listed as on your records?


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## Red-Ink (Mar 28, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Here's the reply I received.
> 
> 
> Dear Mr,
> ...



A decent explanaition on their stance on it.... at least they responded and we know where they're coming from now (thanks for sourcing it).

Point in red is up to you guys up ther now in proactively keeping them on their toes, may fall on deaf ears, may not. Hell it could be a token gesture for all we know. But with the other states that have reviews in place as well, from history some changes can be made when it's up for review.


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## ShaunMorelia (Mar 28, 2013)

Umbral said:


> What is it listed as on your records?


It's listed as a Diamond x Jungle.

I don't have an issue at all with the enclosure sizes, just don't like the idea of making these changes (some people may have to spend thousands to comply) and then with the possibility of a change again in 5 years time.

See attachment of The draft code.





This is what everyone should be worried about.
The fact that the intention of the code was to be able to impose new regulations at a drop of a hat and as the feel, now that it's been passed into a "standard"


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## CodeRed (Mar 28, 2013)

ShaunMorelia said:


> It's listed as a Diamond x Jungle.
> 
> I don't have an issue at all with the enclosure sizes, just don't like the idea of making these changes (some people may have to spend thousands to comply) and then with the possibility of a change again in 5 years time.
> 
> ...



I cant find that statement in the final version of the COP. Has it been removed or did I just miss it?


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## ShaunMorelia (Mar 28, 2013)

It's not in the final document, but if they wanted to keep the "advisory committee" out of discussion since the draft code, then I wouldn't put it past them that this is still their intention.
DPI or NSW I&I were the main push behind this code being released.


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## Colin (Mar 28, 2013)

Years ago I said this draft was a trojan horse..


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## champagne (Mar 28, 2013)

This document may be subject to revision without notice and readers should ensure they are using the latest version. I don't think people understand how much easier it is to make amendments/changes to a code of practice. I wouldn't be surprised if the allowed to keep list starts getting smaller with much tougher regulations for the reptiles that are allowed to be kept... the job of parks and wildlife is to protect ''parks and wildlife'' not ''pet reptiles'' which actually pose a risk to native reptiles to the area. It might not happen this year or next but the noose is getting tighter. Like I said earlier SA parks and wildlife are mapping DNA to be able to use it in a court of law against cross breed Morelia sub species they wouldn't be wasting the money if they weren't going to get convictions or try to anyway....


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## zulu (Mar 28, 2013)

Ime guessing that the agenda would be to initially sell a limited number of common species in petshops then in a few years add more speciesto class 1s and add class2s as some would of proved their keeping skills. (that would be the plan anyway)
By that time DPI can bump up the cage sizes etc so it looks nice and cuddly in the press release.
They are just putting the foot in the door now.


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## champagne (Mar 28, 2013)

zulu said:


> Ime guessing that the agenda would be to initially sell a limited number of common species in petshops then in a few years add more speciesto class 1s and add class2s as some would of proved their keeping skills. (that would be the plan anyway)
> By that time DPI can bump up the cage sizes etc so it looks nice and cuddly in the press release.
> They are just putting the foot in the door now.


or keep the common species on low class license and move more to a much high class of license like the WA license system.... most monitors and larger pythons on a class nearly as high or the same class as venomous

I'm glad I live in Queensland pretty relaxed... they have some stupid rules ''need to pay extra to keep green tree pythons or womas because you need more experience to keep them and yes paying more money means you have more experience, but you can go out and buy 10 scrub pythons or lace monitors with no experience at all.


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## The_Geeza (Mar 29, 2013)

Ok so reading this and me maths not so good (tho I passed some form of maths exam last week) lol..... What is the min floor size for let's say a Stimson given that they put 0.15 m squared but this don't figure.... Help plz.... Like all I wanna know is say plastic tub size for an adult stimi as I'm making new enclosures and they going in a temporary rack ??? 
Ta 
Pete


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## saximus (Mar 29, 2013)

ozimid said:


> Ok so reading this and me maths not so good (tho I passed some form of maths exam last week) lol..... What is the min floor size for let's say a Stimson given that they put 0.15 m squared but this don't figure.... Help plz.... Like all I wanna know is say plastic tub size for an adult stimi as I'm making new enclosures and they going in a temporary rack ???
> Ta
> Pete



Have a look at Appendix B. It gives you a good starting point for measurements. You can have tubs different to those exact ones as long as you don't break any of the other requirements like not having any dimension shorter than 20% of the length of the snake.


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## jacorin (Mar 29, 2013)

so by that sax,i cant turn this into an enclosure because the back wall is only 27cm across????? 

other measurements are 117cm at widest spot,76cm at the front,60cm high


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## saximus (Mar 29, 2013)

I've got a display enclosure almost identical to that as well . My understanding would be that it's ok because the back wall is not a restrictive dimension like the side of a typical box enclosure would be and the floor/wall space it provides is still enough for anything up to D. I guess the department geniuses would be the ones to ask for sure though


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## The_Geeza (Mar 29, 2013)

saximus said:


> Have a look at Appendix B. It gives you a good starting point for measurements. You can have tubs different to those exact ones as long as you don't break any of the other requirements like not having any dimension shorter than 20% of the length of the snake.


So basically a 1m stimi can easily live in a 44 lt tub of 55 x 40 x 30cm high ??


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## thomasssss (Mar 29, 2013)

lana09 said:


> Pretty sure this would be the same as holding a firearms license, holding a license grants them the ability to demand seeing all firearms and storage at anytime without any notice or for any given reason. They do random checks here in SA all the time.
> .


not entirely true not with the nsw system anyway , i have my residential address (where i live) but my fire arms are kept at a mates place where i shoot and that is my safe keeping address , for the police to check me they have to call me and allow me to arrange a time for them to check my firearms that its convenient to both me and the owner of the other property , and yes i have been checked and been through the process 

to my understanding the old or current laws on reptile checks being undertaken in nsw was/is much the same as this , it had to be a convenient time for you , its not like they can just stroll in at any time but you can not flat out deny them entry either

edit , only had a quick look at the link provided but all i found on enclosure sizes was that it must not be any smaller than 20% of the snakes total length , and then a bunch of stuff about younger snakes being kept in smaller enclosures , it actually does seem quite reasonable or am i missing the part where it goes into more details i.e. species specific enclosure sizes whats all this talk to cat c and cat d animals ?


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## cement (Mar 29, 2013)

Colin said:


> Years ago I said this draft was a trojan horse..



Trojan horse for what?
There are that many keepers in NSW (and it will never happen) that even if the govt said 'righto, no more reptile keeping', they would be faced with major unrest.
I am still having trouble working out what the problem is, but all my stuff complies, so maybe thats it.
I wasn't part of the 'advisory committee' so I can look at this COP from an unbiased veiwpoint, and to be honest, it seems to me like they have done it in quite an ok manner. We were all given the chance to have input, they met with the experts and the COP really is only going to make life miserable for people who are mistreating their animals.
This reptile industry is a classic. On one hand, no one wants pet shops selling herps, but then they complain that you can't buy one in a shop, so the bill gets passed, with pretty tight restrictions too, and the govt thinks ok we need something here to try and make sure it fits with EVERYONE. The pet shop industry, the commercial breeders, the small breeders and the keepers of one animal. Would we rather no COP and be allowed to keep our animals like they do in third world countries?
Yeah theres a few bugs to iron out, but chill out, it's the govt, try running a building company, it makes this industry look like a picnic on a sunny day with pretty butterflies and daisies.

The only issue I have is that if you have a COP enforcable by law for native reptiles, then you should have one for cats and dogs.


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## cement (Mar 29, 2013)

Another point, has anybody ever considered the resulting effect that a growing reptile industry would have?

Everyone is like 'yeah, expo's', 'yeah, teach the kids' etc,etc, breed and sell, make money, more people involved, cross breed, make more money. Pet shops have had massive growth in reptile products, with one shop I know of saying that herp related products have now taken over their major % of income. This means more products as the manufacturers jump on board to supply a booming growth, make more money.

The govt keeps an eye on this sort of stuff and the reptile pet industry is experiencing major growth. Its popped up on the radar and as such gets the same treatment as any other industry.They want their cut too! This is what happens, jump up and down all we like, but did we play a part in this?


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## bk201 (Mar 29, 2013)

All reptile products are over priced we are a major target for profiteering.


Most of the reptile products are useless, makes reptile keeping seem expensive and is just for profit...animal welfare is the last concern just check out the heat rock section...


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## jacorin (Mar 29, 2013)

saximus said:


> I've got a display enclosure almost identical to that as well . My understanding would be that it's ok because the back wall is not a restrictive dimension like the side of a typical box enclosure would be and the floor/wall space it provides is still enough for anything up to D. I guess the department geniuses would be the ones to ask for sure though



ok kool thx m8..... does yours have the shelving up the top,to give you 2 more areas?? was thinking about leaving that top shelf in and making it another cabinet???


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## saximus (Mar 29, 2013)

jacorin said:


> ok kool thx m8..... does yours have the shelving up the top,to give you 2 more areas?? was thinking about leaving that top shelf in and making it another cabinet???



Mine has the shelf underneath and I just use it for storage and for the thermostat. I've heard of people cutting a hole and using it as a big hide but whatever suits you would work I suppose


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## viciousred (Mar 29, 2013)

Probably asking a really stupid question but this is all doing my head in.

I have 2 roughly 7 to 8ft coastal carpet pythons. 20% of 200cm is 40cm .. right? and the minimum cage size is 0.62 squared.
so a roughly 4x2x2" enclosure each should be fine yeah?....

There minimum cage size seems tiny to me.. but i suck at maths so am probably wrong..?
but by there standards a 62x62 cube is big enough for an 8 foot carpet python?

I must be doing some calculation wrong here .. surely?


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## Skeptic (Mar 30, 2013)

viciousred said:


> Probably asking a really stupid question but this is all doing my head in.
> 
> I have 2 roughly 7 to 8ft coastal carpet pythons. 20% of 200cm is 40cm .. right? and the minimum cage size is 0.62 squared.
> so a roughly 4x2x2" enclosure each should be fine yeah?....
> ...




Your maths is wrong. 0.62m x 0.62m gives you 0.38m2


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## wokka (Mar 30, 2013)

Bushfire said:


> Here is an interesting statement:
> 
> The Office of Environment and Heritage (OEH) has compiled this code of practice in
> good faith, exercising all due care and attention. No representation is made about the
> ...



If OEH demand licence holders follow the Code then OEH would be legally liable for the consequences- disclaimer or not!
You cant make someone do something and then not accept responsibility for the action


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## wokka (Mar 30, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> the cage sizes are not unreasonable at all, not to mention we've all known for years that this will be happening.
> 
> whats unreasonable about keeping a large (2.5m) python in a 1.25x,.5metre cage, (which would have a smaller floor space than a standard 4x2 foot enclosure)
> its still on the small side imo.
> ...


Lets say it takes say two hours totravel check and document each licence holder at say $200 per hour including vehicle, wages and on costs. It could get expensive? How often should (or maybe must) they check the cages?


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## Chris1 (Mar 30, 2013)

wokka said:


> Lets say it takes say two hours totravel check and document each licence holder at say $200 per hour including vehicle, wages and on costs. It could get expensive? How often should (or maybe must0 they check the cages?



random visits would keep people on their toes, people will spread the word when they've been visited. I wouldnt expect everyone with a license would even be visited with a 10 year period.
They would obviously need to put some thought into who they visit. eg. people with large collections, or people who acquire 50+ snakes in a 2 year period,.....plus the occasional smaller keeper


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## thomasssss (Mar 30, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> random visits would keep people on their toes, people will spread the word when they've been visited. I wouldnt expect everyone with a license would even be visited with a 10 year period.
> They would obviously need to put some thought into who they visit. eg. people with large collections, or people who acquire 50+ snakes in a 2 year period,.....plus the occasional smaller keeper


so then they drive 2+ hours to find out that no ones home and they have to come back ? they cannot legally stroll into your home so you have to be there , under the old system(which may of changed but i doubt it) it also had to be a convenient time for you , so you could deny them entry if you where about to leave for work etc , random checks , good in theory but hard to implement ( with out loosing the element of surprise anyway )


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## Ramsayi (Mar 30, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> random visits would keep people on their toes, people will spread the word when they've been visited. I wouldnt expect everyone with a license would even be visited with a 10 year period.
> They would obviously need to put some thought into who they visit. eg. people with large collections, or people who acquire 50+ snakes in a 2 year period,.....plus the occasional smaller keeper



Wonder how many of these random visits they would do per day to get around to everyone in a 10 year period? How many people would have no problem with them moving from one collection to another? They would even make a mockery of their quarantine guidelines.


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## Chris1 (Mar 30, 2013)

i said i WOULDNT expect them to get around to visiting everyone in a 10 year period.

why dont you ask them how they intend to do it, i didnt make the rules and im not in a position to enforce them, all i said was that i think its a good idea that there are some minimum enforceable standards,....


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## Ramsayi (Mar 30, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> i said i WOULDNT expect them to get around to visiting everyone in a 10 year period.
> 
> why dont you ask them how they intend to do it, i didnt make the rules and im not in a position to enforce them, all i said was that i think its a good idea that there are some minimum enforceable standards,....



The fact is if they did more than one per day a lot of people would be livid having their quarantine protocols placed at risk.The very idea of them coming out to check on keepers is bad enough.Bloody nanny state at its best.
Maybe people who think its a good idea could invite them around for a coffee and a check of their bookwork and collections and get back to everyone about how it went.


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## Chris1 (Mar 30, 2013)

yes, quarantine would be a worry, im sure if you threw a shower cap, plastic booties, latex gloves and a change of clothes at them to allow them access they would have to deal with it. It doesnt sound like they want to touch animals, i read in a post on this thread that that is the reason for categories rather than exact lengths.


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## cement (Mar 30, 2013)

They've always had the power to look at collections. Nothing has changed there.

so much worry and stress over speculation.


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## saintanger (Mar 30, 2013)

i can't find anywhere on the code of practice minimum size requirments for geckos under 12 months, monitors, scalyfoots. but they have it for pythons, skinks and turtles.

anyone know that the size requirments are or there are none?


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## mungus (Apr 2, 2013)

Skeptic said:


> Your maths is wrong. 0.62m x 0.62m gives you 0.38m2



Your snake would need a 1000L x 400W x ?H enclosure Min.
Which is in my opinion a min. enclosure size for a snake of that length.


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## Bart70 (Apr 2, 2013)

mungus said:


> Your snake would need a 1000L x 400W x ?H enclosure Min.
> Which is in my opinion a min. enclosure size for a snake of that length.



It was originally stated for a 7-8ft coastal. A minimum measurement of 400mm would not pass the 20% length rule for a snake this long if they wanted to be technical. 400mm would allow a 2 metre snake max, 7 ft is just over 2.13 metres. Would be over by more if the snake was closer to 8ft. 500mm would just get you to an allowable length of just over 8ft. 

I do agree that the minimum sizes allowed for Morelia are relatively small given the snake sizes. I am currently planning some new enclosures and have designed them 25% bigger than the COPS and they still look a little on the small side to me. Am looking at increasing to 40-45% bigger.


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## mungus (Apr 2, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> It was originally stated for a 7-8ft coastal. A minimum measurement of 400mm would not pass the 20% length rule for a snake this long if they wanted to be technical. 400mm would allow a 2 metre snake max, 7 ft is just over 2.13 metres. Would be over by more if the snake was closer to 8ft. 500mm would just get you to an allowable length of just over 8ft.
> 
> I do agree that the minimum sizes allowed for Morelia are relatively small given the snake sizes. I am currently planning some new enclosures and have designed them 25% bigger than the COPS and they still look a little on the small side to me. Am looking at increasing to 40-45% bigger.





Your 100% correct.
Like too see them get the correct length of any large python 
My mate needs his scrubby measured..........:lol:


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## mungus (Apr 2, 2013)

At the end of the day I personally dont feel that a 2 metre python living in a 1000x400 enclosure is to much to ask for...........
Or having 200x300mm hatchie tubs a pain.
These new laws will effect the massive breeders keeping everything in shoe boxes so they can cram as much as possible in the min. space they can.
My only gripe is the extensive record keeping that they are requesting.
I will now have to keep records of my adults...........when they eat, drink, pee pee and fart !! :lol:
Not to mention their nocturnal activites in winter........


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## Bart70 (Apr 2, 2013)

mungus said:


> Your 100% correct.
> Like too see them get the correct length of any large python
> My mate needs his scrubby measured..........:lol:



If you hold the bitey end, I will hold the tape at its tail! :lol:

I can't get an accurate length on my hatchy's...let alone something big!


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## Skeptic (Apr 2, 2013)

mungus said:


> Your snake would need a 1000L x 400W x ?H enclosure Min.
> Which is in my opinion a min. enclosure size for a snake of that length.



Not sure why you quoted me... I wasn't commenting on enclosure size, I was commenting on the maths


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 2, 2013)

This is my understanding of the code in a summary.
I have taken into account the reply from OEH in post #250.


*Enclosure Construction*
Enclosure must be escape proof, animal must be safe from hazards, the animal must not be able to come in contact with other animals or unauthorised persons. (Exluding animals that are to be housed in same enclosure and if so, they must be compatible.)


*Enclosure Sizes*
*Lizards*
Less than 6 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.02m2 (e.g. 20cm x 10cm)
6 to 12 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.03m2 (e.g. 30cm x 10cm)
Older than 12 months have to comply with Table 1.




If 2 animals are housed together, then the floor area has to be increased by 50%.
So Less than 6 months = minimum 0.03m2
6 to 12 months = minimum 0.045m2
Older than 12 months = refer to Table 1 and times the area you need by 1.5 and that will be your area.
e.g. Central Bearded Dragon (category D) = 0.375m2 x 1.5 = 0.5625m2 (e.g. 1m x 0.56m)


For 3 animals and up in one enclosure, an extra 20% will need to be added.
e.g. 5 Adult Central Bearded Dragons would need;
0.375m2 x (50% + 20% + 20% + 20%)
= 0.375m2 x (110%)
= 0.375m2 x 2.1 
= 0.79m2 (rounded down)
So they would need an enclosure roughly 1.3m x 0.6m


Keep in mind that the shortest length cannot be small than the Snout to Vent Length (SVL)


*Snakes*
Less than 6 months old, minimum enclosure floor area to be 0.02m2 (e.g. 20cm x 10cm)
6 to 12 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.06m2 (e.g. 30cm x 20cm)
Older than 12 months have to comply with Table 2.




If 2 animals are housed together, then the floor area has to be increased by 50%.
So Less than 6 months = minimum 0.03m2
6 to 12 months = minimum 0.09m2
Older than 12 months = refer to Table 2 and times the area you need by 1.5 and that will be your area.
e.g. Jungle Carpet Python (category C) = 0.4m2 x 1.5 = 0.6m2 (e.g. 1m x 0.6m)


For 3 animals and up in one enclosure, an extra 20% will need to be added.
e.g. 5 Adult Jungle Carpet Python would need;
0.4m2 x (50% + 20% + 20% + 20%)
= 0.4m2 x (110%)
= 0.4m2 x 2.1 
= 0.84m2 (rounded down)
So they would need an enclosure roughly 1.4m x 0.6m


If the snake being kept is Aboreal, enclosures must be designed to allow climbing. So in this case, you can use the back wall area of the enclosure to comply to the OEH standards.


Keep in mind that the smallest side fo the enclosure cannot be smaller than 20% of the snakes' length.




*Enclosure Environment*
Reptiles must be given a temperature gradient, the heat sources must be designed to protect the animals from injuries. Aquatic & semi-Aquatic animals must have maintained water temperature for that species.
Enclosures must be ventilated without causing drafts.
Humidity mUst be as per species requirements.
Reptiles must be given a day/night cycle.
Glass must not be placed between the UV lamp and the species requiring it and must also be spaced away to provide the required UV levels.


*Enclosure Furnishings*
Substrate must be provided to keep the animal clean and dry, which must be replaced in part or entirety when soiled by waste material.
If the species being kept, who in the wild, normally moves through loose surface materials, must be provided with enough substrate to bury itself (e.g. Sand-Swimmer etc).
Animals that usually burrow, must have provided opportunites to burrow or provided with artifical burrows. (So either supply substrate that can be compacted to allw the creation of burrow, or a hide for the animal to use as a "burrow".)
Animals are to be provided with a phisical barrier to be used as a hide.
Reptiles that are aboreal, are to be provided with cage furnishings to allow climbing. These furninshing must be secured so it cannot cause injury to the animal being kept.


*Food, Water and Cleaning*
Feed your animal the approprite food items with the frequency as required by that species.
Clean the cage when it passed the food items you've just fed it.
Supply the animal with access to fresh water at all times in a container that cannot be tipped over.
If the animal doesn't drink from a dish, then do what it needs to be able to drink (e.g. misting)


*Transport*
Put the animal in a labled container that is escape and crush proof, well ventilated.
Container must not be placed in direct sunlight and do not feed the animal during transport.
Transported animals are to be provided with water prior to transport.


*Quarantine*
No Standards......What the hell....


So My standard is a minimum 3 months away from collection and always feed, clean and handle after the rest of your collection has been looked after.
After dealing with the quarantined animal, change of clothes and a wash before going back into main collection.
Better safe than sorry.


*Record Keeping*
As per licence requirements




As for Appendix B, I don't think that should be used, my understanding of the reply email that was posted, they will only be enforcing enclosure sizes going by the average maximum size of that species of animal. So design and build your enclosures to suit.


I hope this helps some people out, and don't take this post as gospel, please do read the OEH Code of Practice for yourself. This summary has been written up by myself from my understanding of the code.
If you have any questions, feel free to post below, otherwise send OEH an email at [email protected]

Cheers
Shaun.


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## Bart70 (Apr 2, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> You might want to check your reference to a Coastal Carpet being Class C. Unless I am reading the COPS incorrectly I am fairly certain it says it is a D. If this is the case you might need to change your original post and adjust the maths just in cases somebody reads it and takes it as correct.
> 
> Happy to stand corrected if I am wrong tho....


Sorted.


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## hulloosenator (Apr 2, 2013)

GEEEEEEEEEEEEZ..........now its going to take years to get an import/export permit or license renewal , because all the overworked and understaffed NPWS personel will be out on the road checking hundreds and thousands of cages and measuring them up and handing out fines and warnings ( haha ) ....... making life very difficult for themselves , eh ?


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 2, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> GEEEEEEEEEEEEZ..........now its going to take years to get an import/export permit or license renewal , because all the overworked and understaffed NPWS personel will be out on the road checking hundreds and thousands of cages and measuring them up and handing out fines and warnings ( haha ) ....... making life very difficult for themselves , eh ?


At least they've made it all online now.
So from what I've been told, it's a pretty straight forward thing and is instant?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one.


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## =bECS= (Apr 2, 2013)

Class 2 animals cant be done online so there is still a wait for those permits


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## Lacelover (Apr 2, 2013)

Id say because Lace monitors generally need or should have double there body length for the length and than the average body length for the Depth and oviously as much height as possible but can get away with it slightly smaller if you have a climable surface on the back of the enclosure for example Dave kirshner has for his lacies thats where they are getting that figure. But Id say they have put that in place to decrease the amount of inexperienced reptile keepers wanting lace monitors, which just about everyone does cause they are beautiful animals!! Not trying to be smart or act like a know it all though!

and before anyone else comments on what my lacies are in it is 4.5 length 3.5 depth and 3m height


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## stumpy13 (Apr 2, 2013)

I think from all that I've read, seen and understand, this entire code is way off in regards to the governing bodies implementing the codes. Aren't NPWS about conservation? This code has nothing in regards to conservation, it is a stab at reptile keepers carried fourth purely by a bureaucrat with his own agenda! Our herps are not part of the wild cohort and thus are not a representation of any conservation value other than enabling people like ourselves to enjoy species and take interest in the environment. So why are the government bodies involved? Our reptiles are pets, the more children that own native pet, the more likely we are going to have future generations with changed attitudes toward our beautiful fauna and flora and the more conservation of the environment likely to occur. How is minimum cage sizes enabling the ease of kids, families and individuals to gain a better understanding of our ecosystems (fauna & flora), and the value they hold!

This is dumb policy, enforced by individuals that aren't representing societies agenda, rather their own! I've never been for unnecessary evils and this includes cruelty to animals, but our reptiles aren't anything like mammals and birds. Birds and mammals need much higher levels of stimulus with their complex social structures, active lifestyle, exercise demands etc... Reptiles don't need constant stimulus, most lizards and snakes would sit and ambush prey whilst spending the wrest of their time thermoregulating, mating etc.... Larger cages that are not backed up the rigorous scientific evidence have huge potential impede on the health of many pet reptiles, isn't that an ethical issue:
Larger cages are much harder to maintain heat, subjecting animals to below optimum temperatures.
Many neonates are aggro-phobic and feel vulnerable in a large area as hard wired into their genetics, (if in the open, higher chance of being predated).

So guys, let's remember that these are reptiles and not birds or mammals... totally different needs!

I think that if we get audited we should be writing to ministers in government explaining how the code is a waist of tax payer money, not a conservation issue and back it up with our vast knowledge in the literature!! Yes this code is to target the big fish, but what happens to the kids that keep healthy animals and have gained an invaluable insight into biology, the environment etc are told that they need to build bigger cages they can't afford and at the expense of the health of their pet?

Let's begin sending the minister a message in writing!


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## stumpy13 (Apr 2, 2013)

The squeakiest wheel receives the oil first!


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## symbol (Apr 7, 2013)

It may have been mentioned but I haven't had a chance to go through all posts, however what is DECCs intention in regards to enforcing the cage sizes?


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## jacorin (Apr 7, 2013)

so if i make cabinets 2.5x0.6x0.6 these should be good for coastals and darwins?? being they are "climbers"


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 8, 2013)

While I was starting to knock up a new page for my website to allow keepers to select their species, put in their enclosure size and it will let them know if their enclosure complies, I noticed that the code has said for Snakes 6-18 months old only has to have a minimum area of 0.06m2.
Now please tell me this, would a scrubby at 15 months old that has been consistently fed fit comfortably inside an enclosure that is 30cm x 20cm?

I know this states it as a "minimum", but will some people take advantage of the enforceable sized enclosures?

Just another thing as to why this code should be guidelines and not enforceable standards...


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## Grogshla (Apr 8, 2013)

I is confused with working out the proper cage size for antaresia?


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## Xeaal (Apr 8, 2013)

*sigh* We're about to go through all this crap in Victoria too and quite frankly, the math makes my brain fall out. I think the new changes will mostly be a good thing from the perspective of the reptiles, but a confusing headache for owners trying to do the right thing, and for the people who have never done the right thing.. well they won't give a damn anyway. Considering there are - oh, I think all of TWO people - working at DSE Victoria, I can't wait to see how they manage to implement and enforce these new laws (I actually feel kind of sorry for them because they are nice people lol) but in the long run, it will be the big breeders with racks upon racks of animals who may be effected and this in turn may effect the economy of reptile sales etc. People here still have a chance to have their say of the new regulations and I just hope the right people are listened to.


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## themadherp (Apr 8, 2013)

wow looks like all the monitors will be going the space requirements for these are insane especially for lacies will need a block of land to keep them


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## benjamind2010 (Apr 11, 2013)

EDIT: Well, it looks like I've found some decent enclosures that won't break the budget


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## junglepython2 (Apr 11, 2013)

Xeaal said:


> *sigh* We're about to go through all this crap in Victoria too and quite frankly, the math makes my brain fall out. I think the new changes will mostly be a good thing from the perspective of the reptiles, but a confusing headache for owners trying to do the right thing, and for the people who have never done the right thing.. well they won't give a damn anyway. Considering there are - oh, I think all of TWO people - working at DSE Victoria, I can't wait to see how they manage to implement and enforce these new laws (I actually feel kind of sorry for them because they are nice people lol) but in the long run, it will be the big breeders with racks upon racks of animals who may be effected and this in turn may effect the economy of reptile sales etc. People here still have a chance to have their say of the new regulations and I just hope the right people are listened to.



What makes you think Vic will implement something similar? I read through the entire draft that was just released and there was nothing on minimum sizes, just a new requirement to have adequate room for shelter.


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## BloodRunsCold (Apr 30, 2013)

looks like im going back to school to learn maths while these jokers get high making up codes of practice


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