# Any luck with albino carpets?



## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 1, 2006)

Have not been on here for a while. Has anybody heard of anybody that has been lucky enough to get gravid females from those 3 year old albino males that where sold off first by southern cross? Just wanted to see if there are going to be any definite hets this year? I should have at least one clutch of Darwin and one Jungle X darwin clutch this year. Will be interesting to see the expression of these genes in the years to come!


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## Basssman (Sep 1, 2006)

a friend is pretty confident on a clutch of hets (darwin x darwin) other than that there hasnt been much talk about them on this site i dont know if it is that no one has any or they just dont want to say, but it is weird that it is so quiet, as u said this is the first season hets will be produced besides by simon i thought it would be a popular subject LOL

cheers Sam


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Have not been on here for a while. Has anybody heard of anybody that has been lucky enough to get gravid females from those 3 year old albino males that where sold off first by southern cross? Just wanted to see if there are going to be any definite hets this year? I should have at least one clutch of Darwin and one Jungle X darwin clutch this year. Will be interesting to see the expression of these genes in the years to come!




darwin cross jungle....... what a waste.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 2, 2006)

*RE: Re: Any luck with albino carpets?*

"darwin cross jungle....... what a waste."
ill second that ??????????


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## Australis (Sep 2, 2006)

I have to agree what a complete "waste" and total disgrace, people have also mentioned on this forum plans to produce high % Diamond Albinos. :? 

Its going to be even harder to tell a Albino Cross/Hybrid from a Pure Albino Darwin :cry: 

Matt :x


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## cris (Sep 2, 2006)

*RE: Re: Any luck with albino carpets?*

i cant wait wait until they make a albino green tree pyrthon, how cool would that be, just like a gtp only boring as crap :lol: 
If you want to make mutaations why not go for the pie balds and stuff like that? you could make a hole interier design renovation plan based on snakes, how cool would that be


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

*RE: Re: Any luck with albino carpets?*

Yes a waste and as you said we will see people change their minds when they see these animals. They are in captivity they will remain in captivity and i cant see people ever letting a snake a that worth escape. You have to own high end snakes to know what im talkin about!!!! This is not a purist thread. And i dont care what the mindset is now, it will change as it did in every other part of the world. They are Morelia spilota and thats that down here in Victoria as subspecies status is a very grey area with every taxonomist thinking that they are right. Thats my opinion and I have dealt with quite a few taxonomists in my time. No waste guys just something you would not want to keep!!!!!!


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## da_donkey (Sep 2, 2006)

you will have no problems selling them MH


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

I know mate. I just have not been active on the forum for a while but things have been brewing you know. Just thought i would let people know what will happen inevitably. Dont fight it guys it happens! Just let the fear and uncomfortable feelings go! Relax. :wink:


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## Easybob (Sep 2, 2006)

ant wait wait until they make a albino green tree pyrthon, how cool would that be,
There are albino green tree pythons
http://www.kingsnake.com/salceies/Floyd.htm
This what your lookin for?


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

I do agree that MH will sell everyone of these animals and sell them quickly. We all have differing ideas and it really shouldn't come down to another purist versus 'the others' thread. This is definitely the way things are going right or wrong, good or bad. 
I don't see it as a waste and definitely not a disgrace. 
I know some people fear pure snakes will be lost forever, this isn't the case and probably never will be. 
There was a very interesting thread on an international forum basically discussing how Australians are under the impression there are no pure animals in America and how ridiculous that was. There are plenty of people in the States completely dedicated to breeding pure animals, the exact same thing will happen here. 
There is plenty of room for both.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

There are more than one albino green tree python in the world. Thre was one for sale by Trooper Walsh, for you who dont know this name he is the one that put GTP breeding on the map. He was selling one at the orlando expo for $100000. And you know what, they were even selling Hybrids at the show too. What a waste.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

And just to refresh peoples minds of what can be done with snake genetics i will post a few pics again. Especially for the newbies.














































Now, thats wod im talkin bout!!!!


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## Basssman (Sep 2, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter how much are your darwin x darwin hets going to be selling for this season? if u dont want to post it can u send me a pm as i have a friend who want to get some

cheers Sam


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Not for sale at the moment. Have to hatch them yet. But should be around the middle range between what possible hets are going for and albinos.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

MH, stop it, my eyes, my eyes. :lol:


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

All I say is don't condemn someone for having a different view, don't agree by all means but don't judge them.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2006)

well i have to agree with rex1, rodger and matt on this one, IMO darwinxjungle = complete waste of time, personally i would pay more for a common old mac.
High end snakes you say, HA what a joke!!, they would be if you kept them pure but cross them and to me they are completely worthless.
Good luck on the pure hets, but sorry i cant say the same for the mongrels. :roll:


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

As I said it is personal opinion, the fact that you or others think they are worthless doesn't actually reduce their value. They will probably sell just as quickly as the pure hets. It's just personal choice.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 2, 2006)

very interesting to hear what pythons people see being in there collections in the future ? , 
IE Albino darwin cross any morelia ?
and jag cross jungles or any morelia ??
each to his own .
ill be keeping my morelia sub species pure ,
Roger


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Was waiting for you i am sure you are happy somewhere deep down to see that I am back on here. Looks like you have a good season up ther Mr Blue. Lets just say you will rule the locality market and us impurists will handle the other market. Fair deal i think. But each to their own hey. You sure you dont have a cross lurking somewhere in that huge collection of yours, maybe one of those GTPs? :wink:


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes I think it will be a very interesting and exciting decade or so, not just as far as sub species crossing goes but pure morphs as well. 
You are quite right, each to their own. I bought a few of your pure Jungles because I love Jungles and will obviously keep them pure but that doesn't stop me appreciating other morphs.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Good on you Roger. Wev need people to breed locality stuff to so we can take all the pretty locality animals and use them for their good looking genes to make good looking designer snakes. Id much rather have a ferari sitting in my garage than a holden!!!! And just a few more pics of some youngsters that were born in europe this year.

















http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b246/Chondropython/DSC00698__small.jpg[/IMG]


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2006)

Good on you rodger, its good to see competent breeders like yourself with that direction in mind.
From previous threads dealing with this matter it seems that most states authorities are on the look out for this sort of behavior so i think it will be alot harder to sell them interstate than you think boa.
Also with jungles and darwins being so simular it WILL end up tainting pure stock down the track, you just wait and see.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Wow, those snakes are amazing especially the second one. :shock:


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Pure stock, that a laugh! Only a handfull of breeders can say they have pure stock because they took those animals from the wild. We have argued this before Mr Blue. I know you have pure lines with a hint of manipulation by yourself for specific colours and patterns. How is that different to what we are doing? Morelia taxonomy is very cloudy as there is no set taxonomy guidelines for all the states. As far as I am concerned there are only Diamond pythons, Bredls pythons, Carpet pythons, Green tree pythons, Rough scaled pythons and Amethystine pythons in the Morelia complex in Australia. Phylogenetic( appearance) differences are not indicative of species status, there are many other factors involved. There are even people out there that use Raymond Hosers taxonomical system for classifying animals. Sub species, too complicated!!!!


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2006)

moreliahunter, the greens i have from urs, (buckleys line), are deemed aust x south east papua new guinea, and so far are found to be genetically the same, the others are supposedly pure aust, so maybee not locale specific but still very much species specific.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Mate did you see the smiley face. What is a coastal, and jungle, and prosepine then. Same thing, locality and traits. Not a different species!!!


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

But all the carpets have been found to be genetically the same as well so is there any difference really ? If you are happy to breed and sell animals from 2 different countries why are you so against interbreeding 2 animals that are genetically the same species ? Aren't Jungles and Darwins species specific ?


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2006)

the way they test for gentics atm this maybe so but you cannot denie the morphological differences in alot of the morelia sub-species we have.
This tells me that they are different and there needs to be alot more work done on the methods used to map their genetics, when this is one day done im fairly certain that we will have a number of different sub-species recognised.
IMO the genetics of reptiles has hardly had the surface scratched, hell genetic rescearch is still in its infantcy stage full stop.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

I see what you are saying but I think genetics is advanced enough to be able to distinguish species at least and most likely at a sub species level as well.
Could it possibly be that your view is clouded by your desire for them to be separate species ? If someone tomorrow proved categorically there is one species that covers Jungles, Coastals, Darwins etc would it change the way you do things ? I would say it most likely wouldn't because in your mind they are sufficiently different to warrant you calling them different species/sub-species. 
You are happy to breed GTPs that are the same species but very obviously separated geographically but unhappy to 'cross' snakes that are geographically separated but are genetically the same species ? Why is one OK but the other not ?
Can I just say that I am pleased this thread hasn't degenerated, I'm not sure if we are all mellowing or the fact it's the weekend :lol:


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

what do you mean high end snakes? Between my mate and I next seasn we will have albino olives, Albino darwins , greens,

This is the result of 100% pure darwin x darwin.

I would love to see something similar from darwin x jungle.

nick


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*hgh*

ghost darwin


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*RE: hgh*

dont get me wrong ,
i like the look of most of those snakes, but it is a shame to see the albino dawins get tainted.

It is a shame as there is someone with a 100% pure het albino jungle, and this will wreck it for them

nick


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## indicus (Sep 2, 2006)

I wont get in on bagging the crosses; as i know it's of little use.....it will happen whether i like it or not.
I will however say that some of the pure forms being produced now will give the crosses a run for their money....theirs some awesome herps/ lines getting developed, that are derived from local animals....Just wait and see, a lot will be shocked to say the very least...
Some of the crosses really do look attractive, no doubt about it.....but why?
I seen pic's of Jungle x darwins produced last season, as did a few of us.....Looked like ugly jungles IMO, but hey MH you maybe lucky to get something decent out of them.....however as i said they were not really that nice.....Just my opinion of course, nothing against the breeder...or the quality of his herps....
Each to their own hey...


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2006)

If some of these greens were iran jaya, i wouldnt cross them with the oz ones no.
Sorry but i have my douts about how advanced genetic research is atm, every few weeks/months they have another jaw dropping discovery and most we never even get to here about.
Very little money gets spent on reptile research around the world compared to most things and i strongly belive that one day this will all change and we will all be surprised at the out come.
I like when possible to breed locale specific animals, but will still breed species specific if that is all thats available, with greens in aust this is almost, if not completely impossible, as you know to breed locale specific so i do the next best thing.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 2, 2006)

Dont get me wrong , im just not keen on crossing the albino genes into other subspecies , others can do as they please , and crossing localities in a subspecies i dont have a problem with, although pure locality forms is the way to go in the future, 
i love the jags too, but they are overseas and unless imported through the proper channels and quarantined etc ,im not interested ? jags morphs are totally irrelevant to albinos being crossed here in oz in regards to this thread ??


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

i agree indicus,

if producing jag look a like snakes was as easy as crossing two normal snakes good on you, cross away.......... but its not going to happen.

You will just end up with a whole lot of $hitty looking snakes, that no one will want.

nick


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

like i said earlier,
someone already has a pure jungl x jungle albino pro in the works and now this will make people think that his animals are tainted like mh's
nick


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## steve6610 (Sep 2, 2006)

nice snakes, and thats all i'm going to say, apart from put me down for a pair of them mongrel jungle x darwin albino hets, 

i agree boa, it's good to see very little name calling and the such, 

i still think there is room for both types of breeders and that will never change,

and just a side note, qld only reconises carpet pythons as morelia's, this i've just found out, so in qld we can keep darwin/ jungles/ coastals / murrays and so on under the one species, so when it says we can't breed hybrids in qld they are talking about woma x jungles or maccie x darwins, or bredli x darwin, as all the morelia's are recorded on the one page, i talked to the epa about this the other day and was told yes thats right, but if keepers wanted to record them under sub species they could,

cheers,
steve...........


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## Magpie (Sep 2, 2006)

> moreliahunter, the greens i have from urs, (buckleys line), are deemed aust x south east papua new guinea, and so far are found to be genetically the same, the others are supposedly pure aust, so maybee not locale specific but still very much species specific.





> Sorry but i have my douts about how advanced genetic research is atm, every few weeks/months they have another jaw dropping discovery and most we never even get to here about.
> Very little money gets spent on reptile research around the world compared to most things and i strongly belive that one day this will all change and we will all be surprised at the out come.




Surely those two quotes were not from the same person?

Rexs1, if someone has pure het albino jungles, all they will have to do is show people the albino jungle they were bred from to dispel any doubts that they are crossbred. To say what you are saying is like saying because someone cross bred scrubbies with coastals many years ago, all scrubbies are now suspect.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes that is right Steve, there is actually nothing to stop anyone breeding species specific crosses like Jungle/Coastals or whatever but as you say the law does prohibit the deliberate breeding of non species specific snakes. The law exists to stop Carpondros and similar snakes not the snakes you bred for instance.


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## Basssman (Sep 2, 2006)

magpie what if the albino's came from to het jungles?

cheers Sam


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

there is no disputing that some of the other snake in the thread are hot but a normal darwin x jungle would look like ****!

Sure some people think that a normal coastal is amazing, but these would just be ****ed. I would be the first to put my hand up is someone in aust bred a coastal x cioastal jag but no some hybrid piece of ****

i wouldnt want to challange that if the crap hit the fan and you had to go to court

,a mate with no keeping experience got his sp. lic the other day from a office in bris / ipswich way.

somehow i dont think that is right

nick


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

So there ARE albino Jungles ? That's been kept very quiet. 



rexs1 said:


> like i said earlier,
> someone already has a pure jungl x jungle albino pro in the works and now this will make people think that his animals are tainted like mh's
> nick


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

byup said:


> magpie what if the albino's came from to het jungles?
> 
> cheers Sam



exactly


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## Ramsayi (Sep 2, 2006)

byup said:


> magpie what if the albino's came from to het jungles?
> 
> cheers Sam



If this is true then there must be an albino jungle otherwise how could anyone know that they had hets.


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## Magpie (Sep 2, 2006)

How do you end up with 2 het jungles without an albino?
In order to have an idea that they are hets, there needs to be albinos.
So if someone has hets that are known, 100% hets, they either have to have come from an albino or their offspring were 25% albino. Now there is no way anyone could have produced albino Jungle x Darwins yet so a photo of the albino jungles would prove they are not crosses.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2006)

yes magpie i see your point, but what i was getting at is that even with what i belive are still fairly primitive testing methods for genetics that are used, especially with such little research done with reptiles, they are very very simular if not the same.
You only need to venture out to some island or cross the range to iran jaya and the genetic make up is very different.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Hence my question, there haven't been any albino Jungles found have there ?


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

we had a het albino common adder from sydney that was given to my old man by a mate up north, he then bred these for a few years and so on you know the drill and suprise... 3 albino adders.

and did we ever see an adult albino?.........no but thats not to say that the parents of the hets we aquired were not albinos 10 yrs ago.

you do the math

nick


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## Basssman (Sep 2, 2006)

u dont need a albino to get HETS. take the albino spotted that was bred by that guy last year he hatched it out of two normal looking parents (hets) and there parents were normal looking to. these things just pop up every now and again

cheers Sam


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

But why do you consider genetic testing to be at a primitive stage ? I would imagine it has most certainly advanced to the stage where species could be differentiated at a genetic level ? Is reptile genetic testing that different to other animals, I would imagine the principle is the same for virtually anything ? 



TrueBlue said:


> yes magpie i see your point, but what i was getting at is that even with what i belive are still fairly primitive testing methods for genetics that are used, especially with such little research done with reptiles, they are very very simular if not the same.
> You only need to venture out to some island or cross the range to iran jaya and the genetic make up is very different.


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## Basssman (Sep 2, 2006)

u beat me to it nick LOL


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Absolutely but to know they are hets you would have to know they came from breeding at least one albino. Yes hets spring up spontaneously but there is absolutely no way of knowing they are hets.



byup said:


> u dont need a albino to get HETS. take the albino spotted that was bred by that guy last year he hatched it out of two normal looking parents (hets) and there parents were normal looking to. these things just pop up every now and again
> 
> cheers Sam


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## Magpie (Sep 2, 2006)

No, you don't need an albino to make hets, I never said you did.
I said you cannot possibly know they are hets until they have produced 25% albino offspring.
I could claim my stimmies are het for albino, piebaldism and axanthism.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

I think what we are trying to say here is that if someone has het Jungles they HAD to have come from an albino or a definite het. Has anyone heard of an albino Jungle ?


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## Basssman (Sep 2, 2006)

they might have been bred and produced albinos. there are probably alot more albinos out there that are been kept quiet than most people realise


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## Magpie (Sep 2, 2006)

Well if they have produced albinos, there is no question of them being darwin crosses due to the time frame as I said.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Again I agree, it is possible that someone has bred albino Jungles but what are the chances of someone having done it and produced hets and passed some onto someone else without anyone hearing about them ? I would love to think there are some albino Jungles out there.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

There would certainly have been enough time to produce Darwin/Jungle hets by now given the first albinos would be 3 years old. There wouldn't be any albinos but hets, yes.



Magpie said:


> Well if they have produced albinos, there is no question of them being darwin crosses due to the time frame as I said.


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## Basssman (Sep 2, 2006)

whats to say these hets nick is talking about were proven to be hets coz they produced albinos? i dont think anyone has bought or sold that is maybe how they were proven.

cheers Sam


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2006)

boa, because its still very new, mark my words in years to come,maybe alot sooner, things will change, hey i may well be wrong, but like ive already said even alot of the non-reconised sub-speices have quite noticable morphological differences, and i truely belive at this stage that a whole lot more work needs to be done to fine tune, or even discover a completely new, far more accurate way of mapping dna etc.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think anyone is doubting albino Jungles may theoretically exist but for no-one to have heard of them is maybe stretching things don't you think ?


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## Magpie (Sep 2, 2006)

> There would certainly have been enough time to produce Darwin/Jungle hets by now given the first albinos would be 3 years old. There wouldn't be any albinos but hets, yes.



That's what I'm saying, the presence of the albinos proves that they are not crosses. Yes, you could have made darwin x jungle hets, but not albinos. In order for these jungle hets to be proven, there MUST be pure albino jungles, otherwise it's just hot air. Sam, if they were proven because they produced albinos, then there is albino jungles out there!


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## Ramsayi (Sep 2, 2006)

Its possible someone had an albino jungle and has managed to breed it and keep it all quiet etc.BUT in all that time no pics of it had been taken?

I will believe it when I see it.

Oi Mags,Drop into chat will ya


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes sorry Magpie, I was agreeing, it just came out wrong :lol: 



Magpie said:


> > There would certainly have been enough time to produce Darwin/Jungle hets by now given the first albinos would be 3 years old. There wouldn't be any albinos but hets, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I'm saying, the presence of the albinos proves that they are not crosses. Yes, you could have made darwin x jungle hets, but not albinos. In order for these jungle hets to be proven, there MUST be pure albino jungles, otherwise it's just hot air. Sam, if they were proven because they produced albinos, then there is albino jungles out there!


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

In my opinion I think there seems to be too much emphasis on what is or isn’t deemed to be a specific species. Law issues aside, I personally, would not be comfortable in breeding a given species where the two individuals came from a completely different area where there were clear known differences between the populations regardless if they were deemed to be the same species. For example within some huge areas that contains identical climate, elevation, soil type, species, habitat etc, you are not likely to find that much of a variance between the populations living at either end of that identical area besides the different morphs that were found in that wide spread area anyway and of course they would likely be spread equally.
It often takes only subtle differences in the elements like I mentioned, to result in populations that do show differences. It can be a very complicated picture to understand, especially with some of the pythons that have a very large distribution across Australia. Some of reasons for these changes in size, colour, and especially temperament, can pose interesting questions.

If you weren’t trying to end up with reptiles that were true representations or at least similar of what would be naturally found in a particular area, then it perhaps wouldn’t matter. If however the offspring were to escape and taint a population that was slightly different that becomes another issue. This is only my personal attitude and certainly not shared by many. I guess to some, this may label me as a purest, but I am more than comfortable with that tag. 

To claim that a coastal, jungle, and Prosepine is the same thing locality and traits is absolute rubbish and clearly shows astounding ignorance.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Are you saying that if those species are the same genetically it is ignorant to believe it ? I don't quite follow this part of the sentence " is the same thing locality and traits is absolute rubbish "



PilbaraPythons said:


> To claim that a coastal, jungle, and Prosepine is the same thing locality and traits is absolute rubbish and clearly shows astounding ignorance.


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

yes there have been albino jungles produced but none have made it past a few days old. To my knowladge only one breeder has that line, and if all goes to plan there may be a few mopre produced this season,

there are a lot more albinos out there then people think, adders, maccies carrpets, various other small elapids.

nick


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## Ramsayi (Sep 2, 2006)

rexs1 said:


> yes there have been albino jungles produced but none have made it past a few days old. To my knowladge only one breeder has that line, and if all goes to plan there may be a few mopre produced this season,
> 
> there are a lot more albinos out there then people think, adders, maccies carrpets, various other small elapids.
> 
> nick



Did he ever bother taking a pic or two?


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Sounds like they may have been leucistics maybe, they have a tendency to last a few days after hatching. 
I know of a few different albinos and leaucistics, small elapids seem quite common.


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## ad (Sep 2, 2006)

So what is the relevance of the jag pics in this thread?

An indication of what you expect to breed this season?

An example of Cross Breeding?

Ya might as well have a pic of a standard maccie x childreni - just as relevant.
We are basing everything on the desirability of the snake, well - bottom of the line there have been no stunning hybrids bred in Australia to date (show me a pic?)
Most long term herpers in this country have seen the results of every sub-species cross available and dont have any in their collection.

We need to seperate fantasy from reality here I think.


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## rexs1 (Sep 2, 2006)

pink eyes are a dead give away boa
:wink: 

nick


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

That is a good point, surely there must be some photo's around ? I would love to see one.



Ramsayi said:


> Did he ever bother taking a pic or two?


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## Ramsayi (Sep 2, 2006)

boa said:


> That is a good point, surely there must be some photo's around ? I would love to see one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thing is Boa that at least it would dispel any talk about them being impure.So far as anyone is concerned if any albinos appear apart from variegata then there will always be suspicion of where the albino gene came from.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes I realise that, I didn't know if you had seen the animals.  



rexs1 said:


> pink eyes are a dead give away boa
> :wink:
> 
> nick


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

Boa
No I do not believe that. 
Genetics stand on there own and I won’t be arguing against that. Do you believe that this what he was referring when he used the word traits? At face value I was more thinking of traits in terms of behaviour, temperament, coloration and size etc. May be he will clarify what he was getting at shortly with a more expanded explanation and including what he means by locality being the same.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Right, sorry that's how I took what you said. I see what you were refferring to now, thanks.


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## Jungleland (Sep 2, 2006)

I say whatever floats your boat.... There will always be room for both in this hobby, designer snakes and morphs will certainly have a big impact in the future of this game and in my opinion can be achieve avoiding cross breeding methods by carefully selectively breeding and inbreeding selected animals for their traits(pin bands Stripes, reduced pattern, colour,ect)
It's great to see a thread like this not getting out of hand as I think participation from everyone regardless your opinion will help this hobby grow( welcome back MH) Just let the people decide which way they gonna go.
I must admit I have yet to see an attractive Cross/hybrid in this country
But as a few already mentioned "each to their own"


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## MDPython (Sep 2, 2006)

quote;Morelia_Hunter how much are your darwin x darwin hets going to be selling for this season? if u dont want to post it can u send me a pm ;

I too would like too know swing me a PM Morelia-Hunter those are beautiful Thanks for sharing.....  8) Great thread nice pics!!


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

What also needs to be understood is that just because the genetic boundaries or perhaps guidelines that are used to determine a specific species to be the same as another, does not mean that there aren’t actually genetics differences at all. Clearly if there are distinguishable characteristics externally or other wise then this proves genetic variation regardless of how similar it is to warrant a particular species.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

That doesn't really follow. Look at the incredible variation found in coastals, they can look like completely different species but that isn't a genetic thing, on a species level they are the same. Every snake is different on an individual level as we as humans are. The issue is at what point do you class them as species or sub species ?



PilbaraPythons said:


> What also needs to be understood is that just because the genetic boundaries or perhaps guidelines that are used to determine a specific species to be the same as another, does not mean that there aren’t actually genetics differences at all. Clearly if there are distinguishable characteristics externally or other wise then this proves genetic variation regardless of how similar it is to warrant a particular species.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

It does follow when people are trying to say that there are no differences genetically between Darwin’s, jungles, Prosepines etc. In fact it is blatantly obvious to most.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

But studies have shown them to be genetically the same on a species level. I can't really see how it can be blatantly obvious to anybody that they are the same at a genetic level ? That would be well beyond the scope of most people on here I would have thought ?


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## ad (Sep 2, 2006)

> In fact it is blatantly obvious to most.



I actually use my eyes to detirmine the difference between a diamond, jungle, darwin etc.
I didnt think it was a skill that was that hard to develop, with a bit of luck hybrid breeders might be able to learn - they seem to be the only ones with trouble in this area.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

I feel I am sounding a bit like a broken record. 
If there are visual characteristic differences (excluding size but not always) between populations from different areas regardless of being the same species, then there is genetic differences, it is that simple.
Probably not the best analogy, but aren’t African pygmy’s, Japanese etc, still classed as Homo sapiens as we are? Yet genetically there are some differences but not enough to remove them to a separate species or sub-species. I am far from a scientist or pretend to know much about genetics but blind Fredy can see what I am alluding to.

Of note: I do think that the missing link between man and ape can be found roaming the streets of South Hedland.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

I know what you are saying but visual differences are not necessarily genetic differences, not at a species level at least. I mean obviously anyone can see the difference visually between these snakes but that doesn't mean they are genetically different at a species level.
I can see exactly what you are alluding to but we are talking at a genetic level not a visual level. You could look at 10 coastals and they could look like 10 different species, do we assign each one a species name ?

I actually saw the missing link in Geelong.


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## geckodan (Sep 2, 2006)

I think what Pilbara is alluding to is that you need to be able to distinguish that whilst genotypically (genetically) a M.spilota is a M.spilota (to some people) , phenotypically (visually) there are subgroups that are blatantly different (call them subspecies if you wish or morphs if you prefer) and this must occur as a result of genetic variation within the whole group. These genetic differences are not enough to warrant separate species status but enough for us to know that one is not the other. I would agree that any knuclehead should be able to distinguish a MD from a diamond but there are points at which the line blurs and potentially "hybrids" may broaden this blurry line.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 2, 2006)

The difference is the pattern colour genetics ? a big enough for me ,plus variation in clutch sizes and max size per sub species , also distribution in australia and there habitats ?
by your reasoning Boa , we now are going to name 10 different coastals what ?


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Absolutely right Dan, I think the problem is exactly where that line is as far as what constitutes a species or indeed sub species and because of that issue with where the line is it obviously affects what ultimately gets labelled a hybrid or not. If the snakes are genetically the same then of course they cant be a hybrid. 
The decision as to what is what isn't down to an individual to decide otherwise any of us could just say that snake looks different to that one I am going to reclassify it as a new species. 
I should add I am not arguing that these snakes aren't blatantly visually different.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

10 coastals to an experienced reptile keeper would look exactly that, 10 coastals.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Roger, no by my reasoning we aren't going to have 10 different coastals. All we can do is await the genetic study results and agree or disagree with it then. 



Jungle_Freak said:


> The difference is the pattern colour genetics ? a big enough for me ,plus variation in clutch sizes and max size per sub species , also distribution in australia and there habitats ?
> by your reasoning Boa , we now are going to name 10 different coastals what ?


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Ah well there's the thing, I'm not experienced. :lol: Maybe refer to Pugsly's 
' Guess this snake' thread.



PilbaraPythons said:


> 10 coastals to an experienced reptile keeper would look exactly that, 10 coastals.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 2, 2006)

Then the same genetic tests would be interesting on other species and sub species and area form colour phases etc
Would most people would not breed their WA bhps to QLD bhps , or NT bhps to each other ? and these are in fact the same species ,
common sence says no , but it probably happens , no big deal ? but were are the future offsprings genetics heading ??think about that, not a pretty thought ?
or same example applied to SA , Tanami , uluru , WA womas ?
or in olive pythons olivacous and baroni 
the variation in darwins , jungles ,coastals ,inlands, diamonds, 
are obvious as already described in print ,


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## waruikazi (Sep 2, 2006)

I'll say what i have said many times before. There needs to be a system where hybrids/crosses can be tracked and each combination given its own sp code. This way it will keep the purists happy as they will have a way of knowing (to some degree) what they are buying and the mongrelists  can produce these snakes as they wish.


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## Garry2 (Sep 2, 2006)

I realise that my knowledge on the subject is way below you guys but I have been reading what you have been saying and from what i have seen in my opinion none have all the facts.
A 12 year study of the human race all nationalities included.
the overall difference was less than .02 percent between all races
Skin variations was the major diff..... we are all the same
Saw a Doco on telly 12 months ago... six part series
We make the arguements....


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

Can I just say again, given the subject matter, how generally well mannered and interesting this thread has been. There will always be 2 sides to any 'argument' but if people are able to discuss without resorting to personal slurs it makes the whole thing far more palatable and other members don't feel as though they aren't able to contribute for fear of being labelled or abused.


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## Retic (Sep 2, 2006)

It's a very valid point, I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't genetic variation between these animals, the big question is at what level is there variation ? Individuals obviously vary but when does it cease being just individual variation and it becomes sub species or species. 
I just wish everyone could find it as interesting as I do. :wink: 



Garry2 said:


> I realise that my knowledge on the subject is way below you guys but I have been reading what you have been saying and from what i have seen in my opinion none have all the facts.
> A 12 year study of the human race all nationalities included.
> the overall difference was less than .02 percent between all races
> Skin variations was the major diff..... we are all the same
> ...


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## steve6610 (Sep 2, 2006)

i've seen a pair of darwin x jungle hatchlings and they are quite nice, so i don't believe that anybody can say all hybrids or crosses will be ugly, everybody knows about my so called hybrids and apart from 2 or 3 members everybody has said how nice they are, and i can tell you i have a heap of pm's and emails asking me to breed them again and at the moment if i bred them again i have 18 hatchlings ordered, i have had 4 different offers to buy the pair i kept after posting pics here, 

one last thing, i've seen plenty of members talk about their atherton x tully jungles and i haven't seen any bad things said against breeding them together, why is that? they are both different looking snakes, the size is heaps different, they come from different places, and could never breed in the wild, 

so trueblue, ad, nick, dave, roger, matt and anybody else that wants to give me their opinions, what do you all think about crossing an atherton to a tully jungle.........
this isn't a smart comment or question, i do want to know what other long time breeders think about them, in my eyes they are no different then a jungle x darwin..

cheers,
steve........


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## AGAMIDAE (Sep 2, 2006)

not going to bother voice my opinion on these as species, but wow yeaj look visually great...would be wonderful for ornimentals for the house...some of the bight yellows ones


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## Seven_neves (Sep 2, 2006)

VERY nice Mr Hunter, very nice.


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## Australis (Sep 2, 2006)

Plenty of pictures of Jaguar morph crosses, what about the "Pure" CoastalxCoastal Jaguar morph animals.
There are plenty of stunning uncrossed coastal jags.

When Jaguar like morphs are (more) available in Australia, i would be happy to part with my hard earned cash to own pure animals what ever the sub species it happens to be from is. But i honestly wouldnt want a crossed version. Of course this is just my own taste and im sure some people wouldnt care about a animals origin only its asthetic qualities.

I dont see the point of rushing new morphs into each sub species, if you want a Albino Carpet, get a Albino Darwin its that simple, if you want a Albino Jungle you will just have to wait.

Im sure some really intresting pure Albino Darwins will be available over the next few years with out the need to cross. Imagine one of Rex1's Ghost Darwins producing a Albino, that would be worth the wait, something like this is in my opinion a much more worth while project instead of crossing.

Steve,
I dont know enough about the difference between jungle locality types, so i cant give you a opinion on that.

Matt


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve6610 
Personally Steve I wouldn’t bother crossing the two as I appreciate the many forms found in those areas for what they are and as they are. I strive to preserve and represent that in a captive sense as best as I can even if in the opinion of some, naively.

Steve in terms of scalation counts there are subtle differences between Variegata and Cheynei on average. For example Cheynei usually has more head scalation and a higher number of postoculars, on average more pitted infra labials etc, etc. You obviously taint these differences when you cross the two forms.
Is this ethical ? That is for the masses to ponder.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

I like it a thread that is actually holding its ground. That was a good point made about the percentage differences amonst humans. I also agree that some have less eggs and are smaller but that is just how they are adapted to their environment. I have seen many snakes grow to much bigger than what they do in nature just because the environment allows them to prosper they also have bigger clutches on average because their captive conditions allow for that. As far as ignorance goes about their phenotype and genotype, all i say is that one of the first lessons in genetics is that colour and pattern should not be seen as a way to identify a species. I still want to see these Albino jungles too. Funny how there is never any evidence of their existence. Surely it must also have been found on a shower rail somewhere? Pardon my ignorance but i have not followed the progress of those ghost darwins. Is it a proven trait? Just asking


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## morelia_morphs (Sep 2, 2006)

I know is is completetly irrelevent to what is being discussed in this thread at the moment.

But in answering the first post, yes should have a clutch of 100% het darwins soon.

Regards

MM


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## Basssman (Sep 2, 2006)

nice pics morelia morphs

cheers Sam


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Good to see you still alive and kicking, Also just to add. To tell you lot more about what the deal was with the jungle. We tried putting the albino with a Darwin, had no response. Then we put it with a male jungle of a similar age. No response. Then we took that jungle and put it with another male jungle and they almost killed each other. So we started thinking that the albino was sexed wrong. Of course I started stressing. You might ask why not put it with a darwin from the start, because we did not have a small enough male and we were worried about the albino getting hurt. With reason of course. Then the albino was placed wit h a big male Darwin and it defecated all over the place and tried to escape from the cage. Then we realised that he was indeed a male. This is where it gets interesting though. He was not interested in any of the female Darwins and they were all cycled identically, so just for interest sake we put it with a nice high yellow and black jungle. This of course sparked his interest for no apparant reason and I was stoked that he was doing what all males like to do.


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## Australis (Sep 2, 2006)

So this was a random act more than a thought out hybrid project?


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## steve6610 (Sep 2, 2006)

hi dave,
thanks for your reply, i always look forward to your reply as you always back up what you say with evidence and not just to say thay are mongrels, pmsl..... even though i know you prefer pure location snakes, 

so i guess from what you have said that you also think atherton x tully jungles is no difference to a darwin x jungle, ( i hope this is what you mean ) pmsl.......

cheers,
steve.........

ps. just to add, i don't intend to cross darwins and jungles or any other types, i was just using that as an example,


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve6610
At least with Atherton x Tullys their scalation would be similar and they would still be Jungles, just not exactly locality pacific ( At least in the view of a self confessed purest )
:lol:


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## rexs1 (Sep 3, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> I dont see the point of rushing new morphs into each sub species, if you want a Albino Carpet, get a Albino Darwin its that simple, if you want a Albino Jungle you will just have to wait.
> 
> Im sure some really intresting pure Albino Darwins will be available over the next few years with out the need to cross. Imagine one of Rex1's Ghost Darwins producing a Albino, that would be worth the wait, something like this is in my opinion a much more worth while project instead of crossing.
> 
> ...



We will have ghost albinos in about 18 months time, sure we could cross a jungle , coastal yada yada yada, but i would rather wait and produce a quality , planned animal. I will be waiting matt!


Lets see some pics of good looking darwin cross jungles? :roll: 

Untill proven otherwise steve a atherton and a tully is still a jungle, about 100 kms diff.

not 2400 km s apart, but i suppose thats not a valid point.

nick


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## ad (Sep 3, 2006)

> We tried putting the albino with a Darwin, had no response. Then we put it with a male jungle of a similar age. No response. Then we took that jungle and put it with another male jungle and they almost killed each other. So we started thinking that the albino was sexed wrong. Of course I started stressing. You might ask why not put it with a darwin from the start, because we did not have a small enough male and we were worried about the albino getting hurt. With reason of course. Then the albino was placed wit h a big male Darwin and it defecated all over the place and tried to escape from the cage. Then we realised that he was indeed a male. This is where it gets interesting though. He was not interested in any of the female Darwins and they were all cycled identically, so just for interest sake we put it with a nice high yellow and black jungle. This of course sparked his interest for no apparant reason and I was stoked that he was doing what all males like to do.



What do you mean the darwin females cycled????
So definite mating was only witnessed with a jungle?
Do you still think you have several gravid darwins and a gravid jungle? Have they ovulated? or just mated at this stage?


Cheers
Ad.


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## ad (Sep 3, 2006)

Great pic Morelia_Morph
Cheers
Ad


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

I think the idea that size can be used to differentiate species or sub species is wrong, take for example the Reticulated Python, it varies in size as adult from 6 feet to over 30 depending on where it is found !!! They are the same species but those found on Indonesian Islands are tiny, they are identical visually but because of their location they have evolved into a much smaller snake.
This also applies to the European Adder that varies considerably in size from area to area but still the same snake. 
Dave, I have to ask but earlier you said " For example Cheynei usually has more head scalation and a higher number of postoculars, " Does this mean cheynei dont always have have a higher head scale count ? I am only referring to your use of the word usually, if that is the case then are you saying that cheynei even vary within the ' subspecies' ? If the scale count isn't consistant how can they be split from others such as coastals ? 


Don't get me wrong, I don't mind if people want to split Jungles into 10 different sub species if that is what they believe but my interest in all this is purely from the genetic standpoint.


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## Australis (Sep 3, 2006)

If it is the case that most carpets are found to be identical from a genetic view point, i really dont think it will really impact on this debate. 
It wouldnt change my stance anyway.

*Boa,*

These 6 ft adult retics, are they the ones labeled as "Dwarf Retics" in the US Hobby?

Like you say they have "evolved" that renders them to some degree seperate from other populations of Retics in my opinion.


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

They are actually called dwarf retics, it isn't the hobby that named them that. Yes they are geographically different just not genetically.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 3, 2006)

steve, to tell you the truth NO, i would not cross a tully with an atherton, infact i wont even cross a parmerston with an atherton and they do over lap half way up the range.
A lot of people do, but i perfer not to.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Sep 3, 2006)

Ad to answer all ten thousand of your questions. These snakes are not as easy to get mating as just wild looking darwins. Many owners have complained that their seemingly mature enough snake has had no interest in mating. I was willing to try anything to get the mating response out of this snake. All the animals were cooled down for the correct amount of time. The male seemed more interested in the jungle females though and yeas ovulation was observed in 2 females. We might just get one more surprise. Females are showing gravid behaviour. And are of their food. Pardon me for not always using the scientific terminology as some of the site visitors dont always follow when those words are used. And by the way this animal is a big part of my breeding project. I am sure you would understand if your so called male acts like a female around other males. I will post some pics as soon as i can go collect them. The post started out with trying to find out if any body else had problems with their albino snakes???????? And by the way if I could have it any other way I would have made more so called hybrids and would have sold them as such. Along with many other albino owners. You wont change my mind on a forum in any case! And by the way, it was not just a random act. He just likes his jungle girls, and I dont blame him. They are hot as!!!!


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## ad (Sep 3, 2006)

Thanks for the answer MH, No doubt you are heading into an exciting time and good luck with them (the darwins), You won't change my mind about the jungle either, so be it.
I look forward to seeing the pics,
Cheers
Ad


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

MH, it sounds as though you just have a fussy male, I can't see it being an albino issue just an individual thing. Good luck with the jungle crosses, they should look nice if the female was a good high yellow.


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## ad (Sep 3, 2006)

So lets have a little speculation,
If MH's male has 3-4 possible clutches, assuming every other male albino owner has several fat juicy proven breeder females laying around for him up to 6 or so.
Talking roughly 100 definite het. hatchlings from every male albino owner,
How common will albinos be in as little as 3 years?


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

Slightly less common than GTP's I would imagine.


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## rexs1 (Sep 3, 2006)

as to having problems with albinos morelia hunter, we bred an albino olive over two normal females and he was a pain in the but to get to mate, looking for a mate, then not responding, but it eventually worked out.

Keeping in mind that gavin bedford said that he hasnt got any albinos to mate before 4 yrs old? Has anyone else had problems with albinos maturing?

Thats one of the better darwins i have seen mark, good work.

they should have high yellow MH, no doubt about that!

each to their own , i guess,

The hets may be ugly IMO but the albinos will be bright!

nick


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

When people call these snakes ugly is it because they don't agree with how they were produced or is it because they actually think the snake is ugly ? It just seems strange that a 'pure' snake is always good looking but a cross is always ugly. Just curious.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 3, 2006)

Boa
These variations in the number of loreals,oculars,etc etc, are the recorded extremes by the people who have done the work in the field or the museum looking and counting them.
A problem that I can see is that we are all assuming that all the people that have done this work hadn’t in fact confused the two in the first place or have correctly recognized the natural overlap of _McDowelli_ . For example when you collect ventral counts on say one hundred cheynei, your result is the lowest number to the highest number and hence you obtain your average. If there was _McDowelli_ x _Cheynei _specimens mistaken for one or the other then the variance is corrupted and in particular the ventrals. I believe in many cases this is likely, especially with specimens from the drier areas of sclerophyll forest habitat. What is very clear though is the overall percentage of scalation data tells us that there are differences between _Variegata_ and lower Palmerston jungles and they are as previously mentioned. If you were to scale count cheynei only taken from the Narada tea area of the Palmerston and then compare them to carpets from the Darwin area you would see the two extremes quite clearly. In fact I cannot wait to get back to Queensland to do much of this my self as this is sort of stuff is far more interesting to me than keeping reptiles.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 3, 2006)

Oh and did I mention that I was depressed--The AllBlacks got beaten last night
 is there an emotional symbol for bawling ?


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

Thanks Dave, do you have any links to this info ?


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## rexs1 (Sep 3, 2006)

boa, i dont care how a snake is produced if it looked like a jag......i woul pay huge ****en dollars, even if it was only a display piece.

I have seen ugly palmerstons in the wild, sure all snakes are nice, but based on looks, i wouldnt want to keep normal childreni, coastals, spotteds, .

If a snake does not blow me away when i first see it, i dont really want to keep it.


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

To be honest when you are that good one loss every now and then is acceptable. I don't think it will happen again for awhile.  



PilbaraPythons said:


> Oh and did I mention that I was depressed--The AllBlacks got beaten last night
> is there an emotional symbol for bawling ?


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

No I agree with you, I have no desire to keep normal coastals, etc but my point is that some just seem to call a snake ugly when they hear it is a cross/hybrid regardless it would seem what the snake actually looks like.
It wasn't directed at you or anyone specifically, just a general sort of question.




rexs1 said:


> boa, i dont care how a snake is produced if it looked like a jag......i woul pay huge [CENSORED] dollars, even if it was only a display piece.
> 
> I have seen ugly palmerstons in the wild, sure all snakes are nice, but based on looks, i wouldnt want to keep normal childreni, coastals, spotteds, .
> 
> If a snake does not blow me away when i first see it, i dont really want to keep it.


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## rexs1 (Sep 3, 2006)

nah that cool boa,
but i have never seen a good looking cross,

if a jag look a like came up and i new it was a cross but it looked hot, i would buy it for display, no doubt about it.

but i am yet to see anything that i would even consider owning,

most of the people that like these cross and think that they are attractiv e are usuall the ones that get hyped up over a normal dull coastal,

but there are a few that just like them 

nick


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

Yeah I know what you mean, I love seeing a wild coastal or anything else but the thrill is seeing the snake in the wild. I can't get worked up about an average coastal as a snake to keep.

I have seen quite a few crosses on moreliapython that really do it for me but over here I don't think people put much thought into it maybe ?


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## Australis (Sep 3, 2006)

I havent noticed any standard crosses (non morphs)to my taste in a asthetic sense, some of the Jag crosses are attractive but i wouldnt consider owning a Jag like morph if it was the result of sub species crossing. But a pure Jag like python, i would be intrested very intrested  



You can have "Designer pythons" with out crossing.



I


> don't think people put much thought into it maybe ?



What do you mean by that Boa, the actual process of creating a cross?


Matt


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## Retic (Sep 3, 2006)

Yes I think some people just throw 2 snakes together and hope for the best, haing said that the same applies to breeding 'pure' snakes.



MattQld83 said:


> > don't think people put much thought into it maybe ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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