# Man dies from snake bite trying to help neighbour



## News Bot (Nov 22, 2011)

A man has died after being bitten by a brown snake while trying to remove the reptile from a neighbour's garage.











*Published On:* 22-Nov-11 04:34 PM
*Source:* NewsCore via NEWS.com.au

*Go to Original Article*


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## richoman_3 (Nov 22, 2011)

'Although Australia is home to many poisonous types of snake, deaths from snake bites are very rare, with only two or three people dying per year.'

VENOMOUS ! get it right jeez.
2 per year, this is about the 8th ive heard of in the past 2 months :/


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## SnakeyTroy (Nov 22, 2011)

For this very reason people should simple leave snakes alone and leave snake catching up to those who are trained in doing so. It is so devistating to hear of people dying from snake bite, something that simply should not occur in Australia. If this man had have called a snake catcher to do the job, he and the snake would both still be alive today. 
These trajedies can so easily be avoided if people simply leave snakes alone.


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## Echiopsis (Nov 22, 2011)

If he had of applied correct first aid immediately and gone to a hospital he'd more than likely still be alive. Wasting time catching/ killing the snake seems to be a popular way of killing yourself these days....


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## Waterrat (Nov 22, 2011)

It sounds to me like a poor snake bite management all over. First aid (lack of) to start with and hospital procedure to follow. You don't just pump up the antivenom into a patient.


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 22, 2011)

Sounds like an allergic reaction to the horse-serum based antivenom - if you're allergic it will kill you far sooner than the actual venom will. Patients should always be tested for this allergy before being given antivenom. Not saying it didn't happen here, but it looks like it could be the case with such a rapid death.

Jamie


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 22, 2011)

Not only all of the above, but if the true story was told you would find it even more stupid.

I have only heard the story second hand myself & therefore should not comment any further.


Have a nice day & leave the wild vens alone.
Ian

Hey just to add abit, we get browns in our garden here at Emerald all the time. There are thousands of them out there.

Without talking about my working in the field experiences & just talking about at home in the garden experiences, I have had them slither past me here at home only 1 metre away & have startled them in the garden & seen plenty of others, I just leave them alone & they leave me alone. 

They are not agressive & a threat as some people might try to think, they just pass on thier way & they have to live somewhere so we just have to learn to live with them. I found a very large one in my 3x3 garden shed one day, all I did was make a racket around the outside of the shed & came back an hour later & it was gone.
I will not talk personally about what happened as peoples emotions are involved, but I will say that if he could have his time over again he would have left it alone.
Ta


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## gozz (Nov 22, 2011)

I always get asked if i have antivenom at home.... as if you just inject yourself and all is good....... its not that simple..!!!


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 22, 2011)

If you wish to know a bit more of what we where told please PM me.

Ian

Unfortunately this is probably the last thing that will hear about this tragic story, is what is written in the newspaper.
There will be no follow up story to tell how to leave them alone or call the lisenced snake catcher, & this guys missfortune will end there with no improvements to the public knowledge due to some bullshit story in the paper.


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## 43nickw (Nov 22, 2011)

If the venom hits a vein or artery your done for ,no matter what. I had to comment as i know a person who was bitten on the calf muscle, had heaps of anti venom and 3 months in hospital. was soooo sick. my self i have lived in the country all my life, had all types of snakes pass me or go round me. never had a problem, but i did upset a big carpet and payed the price.


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## Jay84 (Nov 22, 2011)

Wow, ANOTHER death by snake bite this season. That is crazy. Such a tragic death so easily avoided!


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 22, 2011)

Indeed a tragedy. Testimonial though, that interferance is a leading contributing factor to snakebite fatalities and why folks just need to ring a local catcher. RIP.


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## Eddie2257 (Nov 22, 2011)

43nickw said:


> If the venom hits a vein or artery your done for ,no matter what. I had to comment as i know a person who was bitten on the calf muscle, had heaps of anti venom and 3 months in hospital. was soooo sick. my self i have lived in the country all my life, had all types of snakes pass me or go round me. never had a problem, but i did upset a big carpet and payed the price.



no matter what? mate can you show me a site of somewere that this is proven?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 22, 2011)

Eddie2257 said:


> no matter what? mate can you show me a site of somewere that this is proven?



I can help with that. The statement in question is entirely inaccurate. Please see the following:



> The lymphatic system is responsible for systemic spread of most venoms. This can be reduced by the application of a firm bandage (as firm as you would put on a sprained ankle) over a folded pad placed over the bitten area. While firm, it should not be so tight that it stops blood flow to the limb or to congests the veins. Start bandaging directly over the bitten area, ensuing that the pressure over the bite is firm and even. If you have enough bandage you can extend towards more central parts of the body, to delay spread of any venom that has already started to move centrally. A pressure dressing should be applied even if the bite is on the victims trunk or torso.



The preceding is an excerpt from: Treatment of Australian Snake Bites . What it is saying is that Aussie snake venom travels the lymphatic system, hence why applying a tourniquet is wholly ineffective (actually harmful for other reasons) and the pressure immobilisation technique is applied to compress the lymphatic system WITHOUT impeding the circulatory system.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 22, 2011)

Spot on Aaron

Applying correct first aid is the key

I might add DON'T PANIC and DON'T MOVE ask someone to call 000 

Keep safe - Be informed

Cheers
Sandee


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 22, 2011)

Wild~Touch said:


> Spot on Aaron
> 
> Applying correct first aid is the key
> 
> ...



Even better,
LEAVE THE BLOODY THING ALONE!!!!!!!


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## Fuscus (Nov 22, 2011)

And the correct first aid is 
AUSTRALIAN RESUSCITATION COUNCIL GUIDELINE 9.4.1 ENVENOMATION - AUSTRALIAN SNAKE BITE Envenomation: Australian Snake Bite
AUSTRALIAN RESUSCITATION COUNCIL GUIDELINE 9.4.8 ENVENOMATION - PRESSURE IMMOBILISATION TECHNIQUE Envenomation: Pressure Immobilisation Technique


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## Tsubakai (Nov 23, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> I can help with that. The statement in question is entirely inaccurate. Please see the following:
> 
> 
> 
> The preceding is an excerpt from: Treatment of Australian Snake Bites . What it is saying is that Aussie snake venom travels the lymphatic system, hence why applying a tourniquet is wholly ineffective (actually harmful for other reasons) and the pressure immobilisation technique is applied to compress the lymphatic system WITHOUT impeding the circulatory system.



Its not actually entirely inaccurate. Aussie elapids have such small fangs so generally the venom is injected into subcutaneous tissue and absorbed via the lymphatics as you have written. There is however a very small chance the venom can get administered directly into a vessel (vein or artery) causing a much more rapid onset of envenomation. I think that is what 43nickw was alluding to.


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## -Peter (Nov 23, 2011)

The guy died from a heart attack, appropriate bandaging and management would help in getting to hospital but after that it is a fight against your own body. As pointed out by Bryan G Fry at his AHS talk last month. Brown snake venom is an extreme self contained bilogical weapon. I doesn't react with your body, it attacks it directly.
It is the number two on the most venomous list for valid reasons.


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## snakehandler (Nov 23, 2011)

When the newspaper contacted us we spoke at length about contacting snake catchers, using appropriate first aid, that the venom quantity was around 2mg, not 2ml.......lots of things discussed and not printed. There was also mention of how to prevent snakes in the yard........one of the things we emphasized was to contact a snake catcher and if bitten, dont catch it or kill it, bandage the wound and get medical treatment ASAP


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 23, 2011)

Snake bite claims local man's life | Emerald News | Local News in Emerald | Central Queensland News

Here is the link to the article in our local paper here in Emerald, where the death occurred...


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## HerpMad (Nov 23, 2011)

This man was a friend of mine, extremely sad and terrible loss to our community, makes it even harder now to educate others about snakes and leaving them alone. 

Gives me an awful feeling about being an advocate for snakes...


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## Jay84 (Nov 23, 2011)

HerpMad said:


> This man was a friend of mine, extremely sad and terrible loss to our community, makes it even harder now to educate others about snakes and leaving them alone.
> 
> Gives me an awful feeling about being an advocate for snakes...



Sorry for the loss of your friend. But why does this make it harder to educate others about leaving snakes alone? This is a prime example of what happens when you don't leave them alone  

No need for you to feel bad about being an advocate for snake either.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Nov 23, 2011)

sorry about the loss of your friend herpmad,it does feel bad in discussions as a snake fancier as people look to you for some blame as you advocate these creatures, i suppose you know the story alot better than the newspapers can tell it on what where the circumstances the bite took place.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 24, 2011)

The news today..Boy's snake bite scare - Local News - News - General - Daily Liberal
Lucky kid


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## cheapthrillz (Nov 25, 2011)

When I was a kid, I kept lots of vens. My father was a doctor so I had access to his Medical Journals, this is the 70's. I remember an article on a study of the cause of death by snake bite. I kep it in a scape book for years and I wish I still had it because I have been referring to it for years. I remember the stats to be something like this.. 

80% of deaths are caused by shock ie. simply the fear of snakes and then being bitten by one is enough for people to just die.
5 or 6 % die from an allergic reaction to the antivenene
And the remainder die for the actual venom.

This was demonstrated to me very clearly one afternoon. It was a Sunday and my father got a call that someone had been bitten by a snake while gathering wood for a bbq at a local park and needed urgent attention. They had killed the snake and were bringing it up to the surgery. I had to go up to ID it so the right antivenene could be given. The guy came in in a cold sweat, he had his figure wrapped in a bloody rag because they had lacerated the two bite holes quite deeply. His mate followed him in and was in almost the same state as the victim, sweating and trembling with the dead snake drooped over a stick which he carried in. Guess what the snake was? wait for it.... a Scaly foot !! duh, how the hell they found two tooth holes to cut is beyond me but both guys were ready to drop and needed treating for shock and the victim actually needed a stitch or 2 in his cut figure. It was bizarre and I will never forget it. 

Moral of the story is.. The power of fear kills..


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 25, 2011)

snakehandler said:


> When the newspaper contacted us we spoke at length about contacting snake catchers, using appropriate first aid, that the venom quantity was around 2mg, not 2ml.......lots of things discussed and not printed. There was also mention of how to prevent snakes in the yard........one of the things we emphasized was to contact a snake catcher and if bitten, dont catch it or kill it, bandage the wound and get medical treatment ASAP



Mate they did actually print this stuff in the Central Qld Newspaper along side the story & first aid on the next page.
I was very impressed.
If I can get Paula to scan the couple of pages onto this site we will do so.
At the end of it all it good to see some warnings & alerts come from it. 
I still reckon that first a foremost people should be educated right from the start. IE: schools & shopping centres. CORRECT TREATMENT & EDUCATION.

Cheers
Ian


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## 43nickw (Nov 25, 2011)

Re snake bite, i did say a bite in a vein or artery is fatal usually, as the venom travells straight to the heart, which happened 3 weeks ago the lady was hit in a vien and had a heart attack in minutes. { gatton qld }The article says nothing about veins, only bites which are usually muscular, or fatty tissue, my statement was related only to veins and arteries


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## cheapthrillz (Nov 25, 2011)

43nickw said:


> the lady was hit in a vien and had a heart attack in minutes. { gatton qld }



Death caused by phobia leading to panic attack.
My 2 bobs worth


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## baxtor (Nov 25, 2011)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> I still reckon that first a foremost people should be educated right from the start. IE: schools & shopping centres. CORRECT TREATMENT & EDUCATION.
> 
> Cheers
> Ian



I think there is also an urgent need for education of our healthcare providors in regards to treatment protocols.
I can tell you from personal experience that the LACK of knowledge in that dept. is frightening and I have no doubt it has led to needless fatalities.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 25, 2011)

As promised, this is the additional information put in the CQ newspaper along side the main story.
I congratulate the CQ news & reptile handlers that supplied the information.

Let us just hope that this unfortunate incedent learns a lesson to others.
I truely believe that this simple education should be taught in schools & shopping centers Australia wide.

Thanks Ian


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## mikey_mike (Nov 28, 2011)

Hi guys,
Don't want to ruffle feathers but as a junior ED doc in the NT just wanted to make a couple of comments. Snake bite is usually well managed as it is protocol driven.
There is no need to pretest for anaphylaxis prior to antivenom administration. Anaphylaxis is readily treatable. Manufacturers suggest pretreatment with adrenaline but we don't do it - protocols say not to. Symptomatic envonomation should be treated as promptly as possible.
Shock refers to severe hypotension eg heart not pumping - or a big bleed. Not to being frightened.
Finally intravenous venom administration is an intriguing possibility. Its unlikely and impossible to predict so makes no difference to first aid requirements. From my point of view - may be dead prior to arrival in ED.
Cheers


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## baxtor (Nov 28, 2011)

Snake bite is usually well managed as it is protocol driven.

Maybe it is, but I can tell you from personal experience it can be very badly mismanaged to the point of life threatening incompetence.


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## jack (Nov 28, 2011)

ditto what baxtor said


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## Hoplophile (Nov 28, 2011)

[FONT=&quot]Brown Snake bites are among the most potentially fatal and terribly underestimated in my view. The danger of Brown Snakes is overshadowed by Coastal and Inland taipans, but they are responsible for many more deaths. Until recently researchers were looking for specific cardiotoxins in brown snake venom because of the number of very rapid deaths resulting from cardiac arrest following bites from _Pseudonaja spp_. Now it is thought that massive intra-vascular clotting may be the cause of death where coronary arteries are blocked by clots, predisposed to occlusion by atherosclerosis. Whatever the case, because of their widespread distribution, ability to live in disturbed or modified habitats and their abundance, combined with this apparent ability to kill very rapidly thus undermining first aid and anti-venom treatment I reckon browns are our most "dangerous" snake. You can probably add to this the highly variable venom yields from individual specimens of _P.textilis_. with some animals being able to deliver many times the volume of "average" specimens. Just my two bob's worth.[/FONT]


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 28, 2011)

The best treatment is to just leave the snakes alone.


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## Echiopsis (Nov 28, 2011)

> Snake bite is usually well managed as it is protocol driven.




Maybe in some hospitals but from what Ive seen over here in the west, doctors and nurses are often stumped when a snake bite victim is wheeled in. A mate of mine copped a bite from a common adder, applied correct first aid and presented at the local hospital. On admittance the nurse attampted to take the pressure bandage off to 'have a look' at the bite. It was only on my mates insistance that she went to check that the hospital actually had adder antivenene in stock. As it turned out they did not and it was another 4 hours before he was transported to a hospital that did. That kind of mismanagement can cost lives in the long run and is inexcusable from medical staff in a country where snake bite is common.

A combination of poor first aid and poor medical management equals more stiffs in the morgue.Its not the only story Ive heard along the same lines from different people, just the most recent.


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## Darlyn (Nov 28, 2011)

Seems to me that is not expecting too much for your local hospital to have antivenene for local species. Altho I thought there
was a "generic" one ?


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 28, 2011)

Correct me if I am wrong but I think antivenom can only be administered if the hospital has an ICU ????


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## baxtor (Nov 28, 2011)

Wild~Touch said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but I think antivenom can only be administered if the hospital has an ICU ????



That is not correct. My local hospital does not have an ICU so the normal procedure is to administer the antivenom and the patient is then transported by ambulance to the nearest ICU about 1 hour away.
I have found antivenom to be of absolutely no use unless it is administered. Doctors who have no clue ringing places like the poisons centre and speaking to others who also have no clue while patients progress from one symptom to the next is a recipe for disaster.


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## Wookie (Nov 28, 2011)

Allergic reaction? An anaphylactic reaction is pretty hard to miss from a clinical perspective, especially in an emergency/intensive care situation. A great shame, it seems it may well have been avoided if protocols were followed.


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## Sunny (Nov 30, 2011)

First of all my sympathies to all parties envolved in this tradgic event,
My belief is that prevention is better than cure lets aim to stop envenomations from occuring in the first place (where possible)
through education,i know that not all bites are avoidable.
Also as for first aid i think it should be a mandatory subject in every high school in every state and territory, perhaps this may help save lives that need not be lost for any reason(not just envenomations).


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## zobo (Nov 30, 2011)

snake bite deaths are tragic, but many are avoidable and the lady who died in Warwick recently thought she had been bitten but refused calling ambos and did not bandage it and was walking around, so if correct procedures were followed who knows? mind you she was one of the unfortunate ones who was not catching the snake and was bitten right into bloodstream. 

We have red bellies etc all over our place lately and the odd brown but we have a stocked first aid kit and teach our 2 year old to stay away from them and call out to us. 

Each time we have seen a snake it has bolted as soon as it saw us, so if left alone chance of bites are low, unless treading on them.

our neighbour likes to kill them (dont get me started) and the fact they still come around (he claims 50+ yr) proves killing does not remove them, so why risk the bite. JUST LET THEM GO.

j


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## baxtor (Nov 30, 2011)

Sunny said:


> First of all my sympathies to all parties envolved in this tradgic event,
> My belief is that prevention is better than cure lets aim to stop envenomations from occuring in the first place (where possible)
> through education,i know that not all bites are avoidable.
> Also as for first aid i think it should be a mandatory subject in every high school in every state and territory, perhaps this may help save lives that need not be lost for any reason(not just envenomations).



Good idea, however I know of at least one recent envenomation where all the first aid was done and the victim was in the emergency dept. no more than 20 minutes post bite and was then subjected to a total mismanagement of the correct procedures and ended up on life support.
Any education campaign needs to include the health care providors.


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## Fuscus (Dec 1, 2011)

baxtor said:


> Snake bite is usually well managed as it is protocol driven.
> 
> Maybe it is, but I can tell you from personal experience it can be very badly mismanaged to the point of life threatening incompetence.


ANd I can tell you from personal experience that it can be managed in an excellent manner. Personally I have supreme confidence I'll be treated properly if I have to do it again.


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## mungus (Dec 1, 2011)

2 wasted deaths here........


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## baxtor (Dec 1, 2011)

Fuscus said:


> ANd I can tell you from personal experience that it can be managed in an excellent manner. Personally I have supreme confidence I'll be treated properly if I have to do it again.


It should not come down to a lottery in so far as life or death are concerned. A proven protocol should be followed rather than emergency dept. staff learning on the job at the expense of the patient.


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 1, 2011)

Fuscus said:


> ANd I can tell you from personal experience that it can be managed in an excellent manner. Personally I have supreme confidence I'll be treated properly if I have to do it again.



Hey mate,

I know from personal experience (both myself and friends/colleagues) that your experience is the exception rather than the rule. I've been to hospital twice in the last 10 years for snakebite (my only two bites) and both times they made mistakes that could have been potentially life threatening if I didn't have a sound knowledge of what they should be doing.


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## Fuscus (Dec 2, 2011)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> I know from personal experience (both myself and friends/colleagues) that your experience is the exception rather than the rule. I've been to hospital twice in the last 10 years for snakebite (my only two bites) and both times they made mistakes that could have been potentially life threatening if I didn't have a sound knowledge of what they should be doing.


I have to ask - If the treatment for snake bite is as incompetent as you constantly suggest then why is the mortality from snake bite in Australia so low?


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## baxtor (Dec 3, 2011)

Fuscus said:


> I have to ask - If the treatment for snake bite is as incompetent as you constantly suggest then why is the mortality from snake bite in Australia so low?



Sometimes it's dumb luck and sometimes it is well managed treatment. The treatment should be well managed ALL of the time not just some of the time.


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