# America civilized



## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

here is a couple of pics from the austin reptile show just thought you would like to see what yanks think is acceptable practice in the herp fancy.
Looks more like something from a 3rd world market.


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## waruikazi (Oct 23, 2009)

I don't see anything that terrible there. The king eating a boa, well kings are snake specialists, i'm not too keen on it being live but we all know what some fussy feeders can be like. The jungles in those little enclosures, they obviously aren't long term and they don't seem any worse than a calico bag.


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## Jungletrans (Oct 23, 2009)

We're not that far behind them then . Those peskie racks just take up too much room .


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## Curly56 (Oct 23, 2009)

You are joking arent you, this is some third world market.


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## ShaneBlack (Oct 23, 2009)

Yeah....those carpets have no water, and that cobra needs a bigger meal than that!! 

I wouldnt judge all Americans because of a few idiots....we have plenty of our own.


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## wranga (Oct 23, 2009)

im lost for words. maybe thats saving me from an infraction


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## reptilefan95 (Oct 23, 2009)

Is that an albino retic they are feeding the king snake! What the hell are they thinking?? i cant believe they keep snakes in a plastic box of that size for any amount of time it is DISGRACEFUL


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## reptilemanor (Oct 23, 2009)

I can't say too much about the first picture, but I'm hoping the second picture is of snakes being transported. Otherwise I say it's total unaceptable.


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> I don't see anything that terrible there. The king eating a boa, well kings are snake specialists, i'm not too keen on it being live but we all know what some fussy feeders can be like. The jungles in those little enclosures, they obviously aren't long term and they don't seem any worse than a calico bag.


It was feed to the king in some strange display of monetary power thing as the sun boas are worth alot of money even in america.
Just because and animal is a specialist i dont thing that justifies live feeding . 
I dont feed my croc live dogs or kangaroos, after all thats their natural diet!


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## waruikazi (Oct 23, 2009)

reptilefan95 said:


> Is that an albino retic they are feeding the king snake! What the hell are they thinking?? i cant believe they keep snakes in a plastic box of that size for any amount of time it is DISGRACEFUL



No that is a boa and it is a king cobra not a king snake. Why is having them in small containers for short ammounts of time so bad?


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## Kurto (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone from Austin is a yank? 

Those jungles squashed in like that is a step too far.. But the king on the boa, well that's what king snakes do.....


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

reptilemanor said:


> I can't say too much about the first picture, but I'm hoping the second picture is of snakes being transported. Otherwise I say it's total unaceptable.


they are displayed like this for long time spans.


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

Kurto said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how anyone from Austin is a yank?
> 
> Those jungles squashed in like that is a step too far.. But the king on the boa, well that's what king snakes do.....


The vendors are nation wide.


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## waruikazi (Oct 23, 2009)

Dabool said:


> they are displayed like this for long time spans.



How long is a long time span? 24 hours? 2 days? 2 weeks?


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## Kurto (Oct 23, 2009)

Dabool said:


> The vendors are nation wide.




No doubt.....


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## Cj3cooper (Oct 23, 2009)

forgive my ignorance but i didnt think exports of australian animals such as jungles was actually legal? how did they get them in the first place?

please feel free to correct me if im wrong here, just not sure thats all.

coops


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## ShaneBlack (Oct 23, 2009)

Cj3cooper said:


> forgive my ignorance but i didnt think exports of australian animals such as jungles was actually legal? how did they get them in the first place?
> 
> please feel free to correct me if im wrong here, just not sure thats all.
> 
> coops


 
Who cares?? Their there.


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## waruikazi (Oct 23, 2009)

reptilemanor said:


> I can't say too much about the first picture, but I'm hoping the second picture is of snakes being transported. Otherwise I say it's total unaceptable.



Why is it unacceptable? 

I think that having any reptile on display where people can see them is not ideal and will cause stress to the animal. With that said if i was going to display snakes at a show or where ever for a short period of time (24ish hours) i would have no issue using those boxes. They may be small but to me they don't look cramped, they have a perch and they are about as clean as they can get.


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> Why is it unacceptable?
> 
> I think that having any reptile on display where people can see them is not ideal and will cause stress to the animal. With that said if i was going to display snakes at a show or where ever for a short period of time (24ish hours) i would have no issue using those boxes. They may be small but to me they don't look cramped, they have a perch and they are about as clean as they can get.


Hey gordo i dont know why you are defending this garbage i know you are an animals lover so concede its wrong !.
BTW steamed ball python anyone?


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## jinin (Oct 23, 2009)

Im with wariukazi, If they are just display enclosure it seems fine to me.....


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## waruikazi (Oct 23, 2009)

OK that is a rainbow boa, they are a semi aquatic snake and would need to be kept in a humid/damp environment hence the steamyness.

I can understand why you don't like it and i have no problem with that. But to me for short periods of time i can't see those enclosures being anymore detrimental to a snakes health than handling them or packing them into a calico bag.


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> OK that is a rainbow boa, they are a semi aquatic snake and would need to be kept in a humid/damp environment hence the steamyness.
> 
> I can understand why you don't like it and i have no problem with that. But to me for short periods of time i can't see those enclosures being anymore detrimental to a snakes health than handling them or packing them into a calico bag.


pretty sure they are kept like that for the duration of the expo .
the steamed snake is a rainbow hybrid.


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## kupper (Oct 23, 2009)

i think someone is itching for an arguement , may not be in your oppinion the right way but i am sure the americans would not be putting some of there top shelf stock ( yes top shelf as thats all they show at expos) in any situation that may be detrimental to there health


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## Retic (Oct 23, 2009)

I have never seen anyone keep snakes like that at an expo before so maybe it might be just a couple of breeders that do it out of all of those that attended, so perhaps rather than tar everyone with the same brush be a little selective. Maybe all Americans think we all shoot kangaroos and cut the ears off puppies.


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## Pujols (Oct 23, 2009)

I have to agree with Gordo here... I have seen a huge olive python happily enter a box which would be just as cramped as some of these...


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

kupper said:


> i think someone is itching for an arguement , may not be in your oppinion the right way but i am sure the americans would not be putting some of there top shelf stock ( yes top shelf as thats all they show at expos) in any situation that may be detrimental to there health


It is not a health issue. 
As i have heard before you could probably breed carpet pythons in a bag in your cupboard but i dont think it would be considered it acceptable.


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## RELLIK81 (Oct 23, 2009)

i think for transport from breeder to home is ok but to be kept like that for a day or 2 or 3 show would be in my book cruel......
short term no worries but not for a reptile show 
also most shows are for breeders to show off their offspring in its best light...how is this showing the animal at its best....to me it isnt....gotta be able to see it moving around...not bundled up into a ball


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## Retic (Oct 23, 2009)

I think the issue is not whether the practise is acceptable or not but the fact that rather than point out the fact that you personally don't like what a very small number of people do we get the typical xenophobic thread title.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Oct 23, 2009)

I dont see anything wrong with it, nice pic of the albino being eaten  we are not so different from america so why do we always have a go at them?


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## Retic (Oct 23, 2009)

Yes a very good question, I refer you to my signature


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## Serpentes (Oct 23, 2009)

Thanks for posting those Pics, Dabool, a real eye-opener.


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

would it be acceptable for the vendors in an australian reptile show to stand around and watch a mulga snake eat an albino darwin carpet.


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## ShaneBlack (Oct 23, 2009)

Dabool said:


> would it be acceptable for the vendors in an australian reptile show to stand around and watch a mulga snake eat an albino darwin carpet.


 
Not in public anyway.


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## kupper (Oct 23, 2009)

Dabool said:


> It is not a health issue.
> As i have heard before you could probably breed carpet pythons in a bag in your cupboard but i dont think it would be considered it acceptable.


 
you may not do it the next door neighbour may not do it but if the housing arrangement is not to the snakes detriment then what is the issue?


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## ryanharvey1993 (Oct 23, 2009)

Dabool said:


> would it be acceptable for the vendors in an australian reptile show to stand around and watch a mulga snake eat an albino darwin carpet.


 
would make a good pic :lol: only difference between feeding a snake to a snake and a mouse to a snake is the snake cost a lot more


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## elapid66 (Oct 23, 2009)

nothing wrong with that at all


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## Pike01 (Oct 23, 2009)

I think keeping them like that might be less stressfull than if kept in a large enclosure,I know my carpets spend most of their time curled up in a small box like that....on their own accord.


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## Jason (Oct 23, 2009)

Oxydechis said:


> that cobra needs a bigger meal than that!!



thats exactly what i was thinking...haha


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## nonamesleft (Oct 23, 2009)

I suppose it's no smaller or no more cramped then a hide? My snakes can spend more then 24 hours in their hides with out coming out! I think its just the initial shock of it! i dont agree with the live feeding tho!


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## diamondgal79 (Oct 23, 2009)

come on he could have squeezed more jungles in those boxes if he tried, where was the effort!


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## Kris (Oct 23, 2009)

The steamed Rainbow Boa is the snake that should have been fed to the King. Everyone knows though that "in the wild" animals only eat humanely killed prey items.

With regards to the feelings about feeding an albino Darwin to a Mulga,....well, there will be that many produced this season that people won't be able to give them away, so Mulga food is a good option.

At least the cages weren't full of crap and old shed skins like one of our deadset legends keeps posting on here.

Kris.


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## LauraM (Oct 23, 2009)

"America civilized" 
I was in america not even a month ago. Sure there was some terrible pet shops that did not keep their snakes properly. But hey you can't say this doesn't happen in Australia.
And you can't judge all Americans like this, i went to a few pet shops were the snake enclosures were kept in prime condition, better then probably most the pet and reptile shops in Australia...
so sure maybe you think this is wrong, but are you right by accusing american's as a whole?


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## Cj3cooper (Oct 23, 2009)

Oxydechis said:


> Who cares?? Their there.



clearly you dont, i do however.

As far as the housing goes, personally i wouldnt keep them in a space that small.

coops


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## Jakee (Oct 23, 2009)

Cj3cooper said:


> forgive my ignorance but i didnt think exports of australian animals such as jungles was actually legal? how did they get them in the first place?



Maybe the same way exotics got over here ? :?

Jake


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## Cj3cooper (Oct 23, 2009)

yeah true that, must have done something to get them on paperwork over there i guess. oh well, im not gona get into the whole illegal wildlife bit or ill just rant forever lol 

coops.


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## DDALDD (Oct 23, 2009)

Oxydechis said:


> I wouldnt judge all Americans because of a few idiots....we have plenty of our own.




Agreed, very sensible.


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## ShaneBlack (Oct 23, 2009)

Cj3cooper said:


> clearly you dont, i do however.
> 
> coops


 

No, i dont give a rats how they got all the Aussie species over there. The fact is they are there and have been for many decades, and there will be more to come. What can you do about it?? 

I've got more to worry about in my life than a few snakes being smuggled OS.


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## carterd (Oct 23, 2009)

Did anyone else notice the wood chip being eaten as well, in the first pitcure.


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## Jackrabbit (Oct 23, 2009)

Pujols said:


> I have to agree with Gordo here... I have seen a huge olive python happily enter a box which would be just as cramped as some of these...


 
yes that is their choice, and they feel safe. In those plastic display boxes they can't be feeling safe and secure.


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## waruikazi (Oct 23, 2009)

Dabool said:


> pretty sure they are kept like that for the duration of the expo .
> the steamed snake is a rainbow hybrid.



Either way it isn't a ball python and i would assume that even a rainbow hybrid would need high humidity to stay healthy. 



Dabool said:


> would it be acceptable for the vendors in an australian reptile show to stand around and watch a mulga snake eat an albino darwin carpet.



I don't think comparisons like this will really help this argument but i don't have a problem with any animal being used as a food item as long as it is done humanely and sustainably. But doing as a show of wealth i think would be a bit silly to say the least.


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## fine_jungles (Oct 23, 2009)

The boa most probably had something wrong with it.


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## Kersten (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm lost, is the problem that the food item is a snake....or that it's an albino? How many rat lovers out there get just as worked up over what we do to our rats ffs? While it's not a practice I'd rave about, it's really no more abhorrent than feeding chickens, rats, mice or rabbits. The only difference is that we're snake lovers and not bunny huggers.

As for the enclosures, not something I'd put my animals in, but I don't see too much of a problem as long as they're not kept like that for extended periods. I'd seriously doubt they're in there 24 hours a day for a week.


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## Asharee133 (Oct 23, 2009)

reptilefan95 said:


> Is that an albino retic they are feeding the king snake! What the hell are they thinking?? i cant believe they keep snakes in a plastic box of that size for any amount of time it is DISGRACEFUL


nah, its an albino boa, you can tell by the tail markings


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## LauraM (Oct 23, 2009)

Kersten said:


> I'm lost, is the problem that the food item is a snake....or that it's an albino? How many rat lovers out there get just as worked up over what we do to our rats ffs? While it's not a practice I'd rave about, it's really no more abhorrent than feeding chickens, rats, mice or rabbits. The only difference is that we're snake lovers and not bunny huggers.
> 
> As for the enclosures, not something I'd put my animals in, but I don't see too much of a problem as long as they're not kept like that for extended periods. I'd seriously doubt they're in there 24 hours a day for a week.


 
Well said, totally agree


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## Pujols (Oct 23, 2009)

Jackrabbit said:


> yes that is their choice, and they feel safe. In those plastic display boxes they can't be feeling safe and secure.


 
Yea but to me it would seem that the ppl on this thread are complaining about the snakes cramped quarters opposed to anything else... And if they're on display they're not going to be able to hide anyway so maybe they would prefer being in a small glass container compared to a large one.. But we can't really tell as the snakes can't really inform us..


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## Slyther83 (Oct 23, 2009)

Dabool said:


> here is a couple of pics from the austin reptile show just thought you would like to see what yanks think is acceptable practice in the herp fancy.
> Looks more like something from a 3rd world market.


 

....because this has anything to do with a specific country rather than the ignorance of the people who put the snakes in such tiny enclosures? Let me fill you in on a few juicy generalizations about Australians that we have over here in the states.. grow up.


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 23, 2009)

Slyther83 said:


> ....because this has anything to do with a specific country rather than the ignorance of the people who put the snakes in such tiny enclosures? Let me fill you in on a few juicy generalizations about Australians that we have over here in the states.. grow up.


Public opinion in australia would not let this happen either the cramped caging or the live feeding.
they would also be shut down by the RSPCA and charged in a criminal court so generalize all you like about australia at least we have laws against it.


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## cris (Oct 24, 2009)

I wonder if anyone would mind if the cobra was eating the hybrids? Maybe they are just feeder snake storage containers :?


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## Slyther83 (Oct 24, 2009)

Dabool said:


> Public opinion in australia would not let this happen either the cramped caging or the live feeding.
> they would also be shut down by the RSPCA and charged in a criminal court so generalize all you like about australia at least we have laws against it.


 

An issue with live feeding is immaterial.

Snakes when on display in large public places are generally not in the greatest of moods to begin with as they will be stressed out. Being in a small case can make them feel more safe.

You should also take into consideration that your country probably has a much higher ratio of herp keepers than ours does, which explains why you have such laws. You need licenses for owning different reptiles, as we do not. You have much larger native species in Australia and from what I have read they are much more commonly encountered in every day life. In general, it seems as if Australia has a larger population and variation of wildlife throughout it (in comparison to the states), resulting in a heightened concern and sense toward those animals.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 24, 2009)

King Cobras will only eat other snakes species ? so thats why it is being fed a albino boa ? 
The cages are only temporary display cages , about the size of a hide box for a python that size? LOL
its not cruel to have any reptile confined temporarily ?


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## JasonL (Oct 24, 2009)

Although I don't see the need to feed a live snake to the Kingy, I'm sure plenty of people have fed or at least tried to feed a live pinky to a troublesome python hatchy or a Bearded Dragon ect.... at the end of the day the pinky being eaten by the python will suffer more than the snake being eaten by the Cobra....


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## JasonL (Oct 24, 2009)

Jungle_Freak said:


> King Cobras will only eat other snakes species ? so thats why it is being fed a albino boa ?
> The cages are only temporary display cages , about the size of a hide box for a python that size? LOL
> its not cruel to have any reptile confined temporarily ?



They will eat dead snakes, or rats scented with road kill snakes...


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## Retic (Oct 24, 2009)

Do you honestly believe that ?



Dabool said:


> Public opinion in australia would not let this happen either the cramped caging or the live feeding.
> they would also be shut down by the RSPCA and charged in a criminal court so generalize all you like about australia at least we have laws against it.


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## reptilefan95 (Oct 24, 2009)

I doubt that Australia will be completely different from American herp keepers in the next few years but it is a shock to see this, even though it is only temporary and its pretty much the same as putting a hatchy in a chinese takeaway container to take home after a reptile show it is still pretty confronting


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## Serpentes (Oct 24, 2009)

JasonL said:


> .... at the end of the day the pinky being eaten by the python will suffer more than the snake being eaten by the Cobra....



True that. Ever watched a Burtons eat a skink, a common tree snake eat a frog or a monitor eating a black-headed python? Indeed, not a pleasant ending for the poor prey item, but one that sustains the lives of those reptiles which we adore.

Since I am not a huge fan of albino snakes, I consider the boa a well utilised resource. Although I'd get all confused if it was fed to an albino king cobra. I may have to elicit the same "specie-ist" emotional reactions found elsewhere in this thread.

Does anyone else think that medium-sized freezer bags would be good for snake displays? A spray of water and the odd hole- voila! You could then hang them up out of the way, and it would be heaps cheaper than those plexiglass jobbies.

EDIT: In SE Asia I used to feed my king cobras on rats scented with snake sloughs. Easy-peasy.


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## waruikazi (Oct 24, 2009)

Lol i can picture a rat sausage in a snake skin!


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## Kersten (Oct 24, 2009)

Dabool said:


> they would also be shut down by the RSPCA and charged in a criminal court so generalize all you like about australia at least we have laws against it.


Pretty to think so. However, there are pet stores and private owners operating in conditions far worse than that, and they never get taken to court, even after inspections. At most they'd get a warning, if the RSPCA/Parks officers even thought there was a problem.


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## Jumala (Oct 24, 2009)

this photo was taken in a reptile specialist shop in the USA a couple of weeks ago. The largest containers are the size of chinese takeaway dishes, 6 3/4 inches x 2 inches high, 38 oz in volume. This is not a temporary set up. This is how the animals are kept until they are sold. There are a variety of species in the containers, all are hatchlings.


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## Cj3cooper (Oct 24, 2009)

prices are cheap :lol::lol::lol:

coops


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## waruikazi (Oct 24, 2009)

Jumala said:


> this photo was taken in a reptile specialist shop in the USA a couple of weeks ago. The largest containers are the size of chinese takeaway dishes, 6 3/4 inches x 2 inches high, 38 oz in volume. This is not a temporary set up. This is how the animals are kept until they are sold. There are a variety of species in the containers, all are hatchlings.



Well that does it! I declare war on America!

Hangon... I've kept hatchies in those conditions. Stuff it, string up all the Americans, thase bastads!


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## reptilefan95 (Oct 24, 2009)

Jumala that is exactly what we do in Australian reptile conventions, we keep small hatchy snakes in chinese takeaway containers (probably smaller than that) untill they are sold to some one who drives the snake home and puts it into a click clack which when you think of it isnt really that much bigger than a chinese takeaway box


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## solar 17 (Oct 24, 2009)

*This thread sucks*

*I personally think this thread sucks [totally] l fail to see how highlighting the dark side of a hobby in another country does anything for our hobby in this country, sure it happens in the wild but it doesn,t have to be featured on a site like this, just imagine some young person logging onto this site with their parents looking over their shoulder what would they think....yep what a great promotion....just what we need ...NOT....cheers solar 17 (Baden)*


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 24, 2009)

boa said:


> Do you honestly believe that ?


So you dont think there would be some legal issues if someone did a live feeding display at an open to public reptile show in australia.


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## elapid66 (Oct 24, 2009)

nothing wrong with live feeding to many dogooders around here


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## reptilefan95 (Oct 24, 2009)

Elapid i think the main reason that live feeding is banned because its inhumane and mostly because a large rat or mouse could do quite a bit of damage to a snake so its just safer, plus live mice and rats could probably be more likely to carry diseases


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## ryanharvey1993 (Oct 24, 2009)

before people have a whinge about live, who here has never fed live?, whether it be a pinkie to a beardie or a troublesome hatchling snake


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## Mudimans (Oct 24, 2009)

ryanharvey1993 said:


> before people have a whinge about live, who here has never fed live?, whether it be a pinkie to a beardie or a troublesome hatchling snake


 
True, but only as a last resort and never as entertainment. I suppose who feeds live so their mates can watch would be a more accurate question.


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## elapid66 (Oct 24, 2009)

live feeding is banned because of dogooders if you leave a live rat in with a snake over night thats when you get problems but its ok to feed live fish thou


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## Mudimans (Oct 24, 2009)

Its illegal because it is totally unnecessary. Does the snake get any benefit from taking on a live rat. I think the risk of injury to the snake is way to high to even think of it. How are you going to stop the rat biting the snake when it grabs it, the snake could be left without an eye in a heartbeat.

I agree sometimes it has to be used as a last resort but i doubt very much that a pinkie rat could do any damage to a hatchie


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## reptilefan95 (Oct 24, 2009)

Mudimans said:


> Its illegal because it is totally unnecessary. Does the snake get any benefit from taking on a live rat. I think the risk of injury to the snake is way to high to even think of it. How are you going to stop the rat biting the snake when it grabs it, the snake could be left without an eye in a heartbeat.
> 
> I agree sometimes it has to be used as a last resort but i doubt very much that a pinkie rat could do any damage to a hatchie


 
True that, i agree it should only be used if the circumstances require so not to fufill someones sick mind


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Oct 24, 2009)

reptilefan95 said:


> DISGRACEFUL


I have another word for it... But I was raised not to swear and also the last thing I need right now is an infraction.

What kind of demented creep keeps fully grown jungles in a box that'd be small for a hatchling?!? :shock:

The live feeding is just as bad, if not worse!!!


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## Palex134 (Oct 25, 2009)

WOW...

For those who don't know, those are display racks. In the US, as well as many other countries, reptile shows actually sell herps. Breeders display their animals in display boxes, only for a few hours, while being sold at the show. THESE ARE NOT PERMANENT HOUSING ENCLOSURES. When I used to breed herps in the states I used to display my juvi geckos and snakes in deli cups, along with the hundreds/thousands of other breeders. That is not how I kept them, just how they were displayed and sold. 

With regards to the King feeding on the boa, I see nothing wrong with that. That's an expensive prey item, but if there are surplus born I see no difference compared to feeding a mouse/rat. Though feeding live is often frowned upon due to the possibility of injury, in the US there is no law saying live cannot be fed. Some feed live, some feed f/t. That's just how it goes.


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## notechistiger (Oct 25, 2009)

Some of the replies on this thread, from people who seem to be unable to comprehend alternative _laws _and _regulations_, and a different view about the hobby, are quite funny :lol:


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## Kersten (Oct 25, 2009)

It is possible to comprehend alternative laws or regulations and still find them abhorrent


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## notechistiger (Oct 25, 2009)

Doesn't make the posts any less funny


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## Kersten (Oct 25, 2009)

Perhaps not, but it does render your point about the humour being in their supposed lack of comprehension moot


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## reptilemanor (Oct 25, 2009)

Palex134 said:


> WOW...
> 
> For those who don't know, those are display racks. In the US, as well as many other countries, reptile shows actually sell herps. Breeders display their animals in display boxes, only for a few hours, while being sold at the show. THESE ARE NOT PERMANENT HOUSING ENCLOSURES. When I used to breed herps in the states I used to display my juvi geckos and snakes in deli cups, along with the hundreds/thousands of other breeders. That is not how I kept them, just how they were displayed and sold.
> 
> With regards to the King feeding on the boa, I see nothing wrong with that. That's an expensive prey item, but if there are surplus born I see no difference compared to feeding a mouse/rat. Though feeding live is often frowned upon due to the possibility of injury, in the US there is no law saying live cannot be fed. Some feed live, some feed f/t. That's just how it goes.


 
I know i said earlier it is disgraceful, if it was for long periods of time, but hearing it from someone who has experienced it first hand, I'd have to say it's probably not as bad as it looks, if they are being displayed for short periods of time, then it's not so bad. As far as I know USA has different laws on feeding live prey and how do we know those pictures were of public feeding?
Who here hasn't had their snake disapear into it's hide box for a few days at a time? No different than being displayedlike this, as long as they aren't getting stressed, and I'm sure their owners are keeping a close eye on that.
Thanks for the insight.
Maybe this should be one of those things where people need to agree to disagree, we can't all think the same, what a boring world we would live in.


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## dragonlady14 (Oct 25, 2009)

Not all breeders/vendors here are that way, We do have our share of idiots like the guy who had all of those snakes in such a small space, even for 8 to 10 hours during a show!(I can't see any reason for cramming an animal into that small of a container-even for a few minutes.) Most of the shows I have been to here the vendors have had larger space for these specimens, and most people going to the shows would disagree with how these reptiles are being displayed. I know that there are larger display boxes to accomedate those snakes. Hopefully, someone spoke up and told the guy he was an idiot! People like that really tick me off, and I certainly wouldn't buy any reptile from them as the "too small container" would be a red flag to me about the breeding and husbandry practices of that breeder-if he's dumb enough to treat these animals like that, then he's probably no better at caring for them.:evil: Trust me, had I been at that show, I would have had plenty to say to this jack-a$$!


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## waruikazi (Oct 25, 2009)

dragonlady14 said:


> Not all breeders/vendors here are that way, We do have our share of idiots like the guy who had all of those snakes in such a small space, even for 8 to 10 hours during a show!(I can't see any reason for cramming an animal into that small of a container-even for a few minutes.) Most of the shows I have been to here the vendors have had larger space for these specimens, and most people going to the shows would disagree with how these reptiles are being displayed. I know that there are larger display boxes to accomedate those snakes. Hopefully, someone spoke up and told the guy he was an idiot! People like that really tick me off, and I certainly wouldn't buy any reptile from them as the "too small container" would be a red flag to me about the breeding and husbandry practices of that breeder-if he's dumb enough to treat these animals like that, then he's probably no better at caring for them.:evil: Trust me, had I been at that show, I would have had plenty to say to this jack-a$$!



Yeah they obviously can't breed anything if they are displaying their hatchies in little containers...


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## Australis (Oct 25, 2009)

So what expo will be the first to adopt this future of our hobby sales gimmick ?
maybe Carpetpythons.com.au will open up with a slick stand and feed off
an adult albino "carpet" to mark the start of the apparently impending price
crash ... toot toot


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## waruikazi (Oct 25, 2009)

Australis said:


> So what expo will be the first to adopt this future of our hobby sales gimmick ?
> maybe Carpetpythons.com.au will open up with a slick stand and feed off
> an adult albino "carpet" to mark the start of the apparently impending price
> crash ... toot toot



*Puts train driver cap on*

WOOOooooWOOOOO!


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## DanTheMan (Oct 25, 2009)

That's disgusting, the jungles cant even move! And as for the Cobra, not as bad but not something I would have at a reptile expo, as natural as it may be.


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 25, 2009)

Palex134 said:


> WOW...
> 
> For those who don't know, those are display racks. In the US, as well as many other countries, reptile shows actually sell herps. Breeders display their animals in display boxes, only for a few hours, while being sold at the show. THESE ARE NOT PERMANENT HOUSING ENCLOSURES. When I used to breed herps in the states I used to display my juvi geckos and snakes in deli cups, along with the hundreds/thousands of other breeders. That is not how I kept them, just how they were displayed and sold.
> 
> With regards to the King feeding on the boa, I see nothing wrong with that. That's an expensive prey item, but if there are surplus born I see no difference compared to feeding a mouse/rat. Though feeding live is often frowned upon due to the possibility of injury, in the US there is no law saying live cannot be fed. Some feed live, some feed f/t. That's just how it goes.



In size relation you would have to pack your juvi geckos in something the size of a tic tac


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 26, 2009)

Unfortunately we are not allowed to keep anything that justifies feeding it an albino. I can't think of one Aussie ven that would match a King!


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## Frozenmouse (Oct 27, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Unfortunately we are not allowed to keep anything that justifies feeding it an albino. I can't think of one Aussie ven that would match a King!


There are a couple of aussie pythons and monitors that might give your slow poke cobra some trouble.


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## Australis (Oct 27, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Unfortunately we are not allowed to keep anything that justifies feeding it an albino.



Huge mulga snake isn't too far off.


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## Sdaji (Oct 27, 2009)

Disgusting! Why are they selling Carpet Pythons? They're so boring! Couldn't they get something I like a lot more?

Those snakes are probably not stressed about being in boxes that small, in fact, they probably prefer being secure in a small box if they are in an unfamiliar place for a short time, but either way they'll be stressed about being in a transparent cage with no cover in very bright light, which is the way every seller displays their reptiles at expos, here and there. 

Like everyone said, live feeding is over the top, but albino, striped, hypo or dull and cheap, it really makes no difference. If rat fanciers said "Oh my god, you're feeding an albino rat to your snake! That's disgusting, I love albinos more than black, brown, grey or ginger ones!" we would all laugh at them.

I've seen much worse in the USA, and I've seen far worse in Australia too. I don't think we should start bashing the Americans because they have a few bad apples, any more than we should bash ourselves because some of the citizens of our own country are bad. Imagine if an American forum went crazy saying that all of us were terrible because of a news report saying someone had smuggled some Chondros in, or tried to smuggle some reptiles out. It wouldn't be fair, and we shouldn't be doing it either.

To our American members, I hope you haven't been too offended, and don't assume we all hate you


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## Retic (Oct 27, 2009)

Very well said.


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## Nightsnake (Oct 28, 2009)

Sdaji said:


> To our American members, I hope you haven't been too offended, and don't assume we all hate you


 
Not all of you, just most of you :lol:

I don't see anything wrong with feeding a snake eater a snake, but doing it in public was uncalled for. We all have our idiots in every country. As far as the carpet pythons in small display cases go, I agree they were too small, but having them in there for a six hour show really isn't going to hurt them.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 28, 2009)

What American members? They all get chased away by some of the narrow minded lynch mob members on this forum.


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## Kersten (Oct 28, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> What American members? They all get chased away by some of the narrow minded lynch mob members on this forum.



Nah....it's just the South Africans who smuggle GTPs in to the country and mate their albino Darwins with anything that'll have them (including their GTPs?) that we try to chase away  They just never get the message though! :lol:

I don't know what's funnier....the narrow minded folk judging all Americans by a few poor examples, or the narrow minded folk judging all APSers by the few poor examples who were judging all Americans :lol:


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 28, 2009)

I guess you are on of those that judge then hey Kersten?


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## Kersten (Oct 28, 2009)

It's human nature to judge in some way. You see a person walking down the street dressed in a suit, carrying a briefcase and you assume they're a businessman....that's a judgement. My kids come to me because they're fighting, I listen to them and realise that they're both in the wrong and punish them accordingly....that too, is a judgement. So hell yeah, I judge. To pretend otherwise would be pointless  You say it like it's a bad thing. I can only assume you're referring to the fact I find it amusing that there's a bunch of people getting on their high horses about some practices they don't agree about, and making exactly the same sort of generalisations about eachother. Honey, that's not judging, that's recognition of supreme irony :lol:


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## moosenoose (Oct 28, 2009)

I was going to put everything I was going to display at the next Herp Meet into 25mm+ polytube with capped ends and a couple of breather-holes drilled into the ends (it was also so the suckers had to lie in a straight line) But after reading this thread it looks like a few people might object to it


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 28, 2009)

I would not say its generalisations, its a mere fact that American Herpetoculturists do not venture on this forum because of some of the abuse and unfounded criticism they receive. When our laws do not apply to them. Why do you think some members have appologised for the comments of others? Its for the same reason that herpetologists do not bother adding their input into threads on this forum. Members are indoctrinated by the opinions of some of the more worshipped members just because they dont know any better. I am not generalising, you go and find one post by an American that has not turned into a purity debate on this forum. Where do you stand Kersten? What is your opinion on this?


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## Kersten (Oct 28, 2009)

Sweeping statements lumping all American herpers into one category and all Australian herpers/APS members into another are generalisations. Perpetuating the idea that Americans all carry out their business at expos in the manner shown in the initial post is a generalisation. People apologising on behalf of the entire forum as though we all share one eyed anti-American sentiments is yet another generalisation. Ironically, I didn't refer to your earlier post as a generalisation - this is why there was a seperate paragraph for it. 

As for the unfounded critiscism that American herpers receive (yet another generalisation, ALL American herpers? Really?), while in some respects it may be unfounded....your generalising again in assuming they never post anything worthy of someone here disagreeing with. We have disagreements here all the time, it isn't only Americans who find themselves on the receiving end. While we're here....not every post by Americans ends in a purity debate as not every post by Americans is about hybridised animals. When they post pics of hybrids, there'll be an argument....it's the same as when Aussie herpers post pics of hybrids.

Where do I stand on what exactly? I've never been one to hide my opinion so I'm surprised the question needs to be asked :lol:

Sorry....it's just been pointed out to me that no one has acknowledged Moosenoose's revolutionary herp display product. Brilliant planning Moosey....when you've got it up and running put me down for 2 :lol:


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 28, 2009)

You make valid points. It just feels like it always heads there when an American topic arrises. We can always learn no matter how long we have been keeping reptiles for.


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## GreggMadden (Oct 28, 2009)

Well I am guilty of being an American... I am a Yankee on top of it... Straight from the streets of New York City... LOL
Just to clear some things up...

Live feeding is not illegal here... I have fed some of my vipers live rodents... Whats the big deal??? Its over pretty fast... Plus you get to see how your reptile would actually hunt its meal... Is it entertaining??? Yes it is... I am sure most of us have watched a nature show where a croc drags a zebra into the water by its head... Why did you not shut off the tvor change the channel??? Because you were entertained... Please, do not make it out to be a bad thing that people are actually entertained by nature no matter how cruel it can be...

King cobras do not do well on rodent diets and some never convert to feeding on dead prey items... That is just the facts of keeping a species that is mostly wild caught...

Species from Australia were not always illegal to have imported to the States...

Not all Americans are dirtbags when it comes to reptile keeping... We have our share of them but they really are the minority... The dirtbags really do not last long in the hobby...

I am sure there are some Australian keepers/breeders who are just as bad as our dirtbags...

So how do I feel about the photos???
The "cramped" cages are display cases... Could they be bigger??? Sure... Are they a health hazard??? No way... 

The king cobra eating an albino boa is not offensive or anything someone should be brought up on charges for...

The steamed ball python that is actually a rainbow boa is in a display cage as well... It was obviously being kept humid because that is what that species requires...

Honestly, the person who started this thread seems to be somewhat ignorant but I will not say all Australians are the same way... Infact, in my experience it has been quite the opposite... Most of the Australian reptile keepers I have come into contact with have been very knowledgable and not very anti-American... Well atleast not to my face... LOL

Anyway, this has been an interesting read... I actually like this place... My skin is thick so I doubt I will be running off when someone else posts so silly thread about how bad Americans are... LOL


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## Palex134 (Oct 28, 2009)

Good post^

Since when are snakes claustrophobic? I'm pretty sure putting a hidebox in an enclosure is similar principal. Anyways, these temporary displays are just that...temporary. 

Lastly, as a former American, where does all this anti-Americanism stem from?


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## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2009)

Palex134 said:


> Lastly, as a former American, where does all this anti-Americanism stem from?



Probably jealousy more than anything else, but there is also a bit of a culture clash.


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## beatlloydy (Oct 28, 2009)

Public forums are all alike...I have been on running and MTB forums and there are those who are genuinely helpful, those who use their knowledge to talk down to people and those who just want to get people to react..The fact is we need to look at the individual and not the race or colour of their skin...personally I have an issue with the size of the displays ..and I think feeding a nice snake like that to the cobra is a poor display of American excessiveness...and that is one thing the industrialists of America are guilty of (over the top showmanship)...as individuals I meet and work with I have only met friendly open people.

As a newbie I will have to reserve my judgement on how we in Australia display our wildlife as I have yet to attend an expo.


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## GSXR_Boy (Oct 28, 2009)

Palex134 said:


> Lastly, as a former American, where does all this anti-Americanism stem from?


 
Giving us shows like MASH, bold and the beautiful, Beverly hillbillies, NCIS etc etc and then the countless re runs of them :lol: ( i'm joking i don't have a problem with America)


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## slither (Oct 28, 2009)

sdaji couldnt of sumed it up better nothing more needs to be said


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## never_stopped_me (Oct 28, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Well I am guilty of being an American... I am a Yankee on top of it... Straight from the streets of New York City... LOL
> Just to clear some things up...
> 
> Live feeding is not illegal here... I have fed some of my vipers live rodents... Whats the big deal??? Its over pretty fast... Plus you get to see how your reptile would actually hunt its meal... Is it entertaining??? Yes it is... I am sure most of us have watched a nature show where a croc drags a zebra into the water by its head... Why did you not shut off the tvor change the channel??? Because you were entertained... Please, do not make it out to be a bad thing that people are actually entertained by nature no matter how cruel it can be...



And here is one of the many differences between herp husbandry in Australia and America. Here, it is seen as cruel to the prey animal and potentially extremely dangerous to the snake to feed it live prey. 

Here, it is illegal to take animals from the wild. We don't have the experience of keeping wild-caught snakes that you guys clearly do, because here it's not allowed.

Here, we need a license to keep almost all reptiles, and the keeping of herps is heavily regulated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't the case in most parts of America, is it?

Here (and I can only speak for Victoria here), we are only allowed to keep native animals. This is clearly not the case in America, or else those jungles wouldn't be there. 

Everything in this thread can be put down to cultural difference. Not all Australians agree on how herps should be kept, and I'm sure not all Americans agree, either, but there are obviously differences in what is generally accepted and acceptable. Does this make either country wrong?


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## notechistiger (Oct 28, 2009)

never_stopped_me said:


> Here, it is illegal to take animals from the wild. We don't have the experience of keeping wild-caught snakes that you guys clearly do, because here it's not allowed.



This is incorrect. Many people with appropriate licenses can collect animals from the wild- and can keep them with a lot of success.


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## Kersten (Oct 28, 2009)

Actually, not everything can be put down to a cultural difference at all. All of the issues which have been discussed in this thread are personal differences. Whether people choose to admit it or not, live feeding happens all the time in Australia. And while you won't find it being advertised with any regularity, I would bet there are American keepers who object to live feeding. For the most part, those who object to it do so because they personally dislike the practice. How hypocritical would it be of someone to say they had a problem with live feeding because they consider it cruel, or potentially dangerous to the animal being fed; but then turn around and say they don't care if someone else does it in America because it's legal there? The idea that the fact it's legal makes it okay is frankly a joke. Many things which are not necessarily acceptable practices are legal in many other places. Just as many things which perhaps should be legal are not.

I see we're still going with the idea that anyone who dislikes these practices is anti-American. Apparently also jealous to boot :lol: Could it be....and I'm going out on a limb here....that the majority of people who have posted critiscism of the practice of live feeding, or the crapmed enclosures have done so because it's the practice they find objectionable and not the country it takes place in! Good god, surely not! No doubt there is the odd xenophobe who complains for the sake of complaining...but assuming that any negative feelings toward practices which some find abhorrent is the result of jealousy or American bashing is a stretch. Jealous of what exactly? Is someone who rails against live feeding jealous of the fact the people doing it are able to? :lol:

Oh and just to clarify....I really couldn't give a damn about the feeding or the enclosures personally. It's not something I would do, or something I would want to see....but you show me a wild BHP who gets their snakes baked and served on a platter.


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## serpenttongue (Oct 28, 2009)

Pujols said:


> I have to agree with Gordo here... I have seen a huge olive python happily enter a box which would be just as cramped as some of these...


 
Yes, but a hide box gives the snake security. A clear plastic box, that exposes the snake from all angles, does not.


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## Dipcdame (Oct 28, 2009)

You have GOT to be JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## never_stopped_me (Oct 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Actually, not everything can be put down to a cultural difference at all. All of the issues which have been discussed in this thread are personal differences. Whether people choose to admit it or not, live feeding happens all the time in Australia. And while you won't find it being advertised with any regularity, I would bet there are American keepers who object to live feeding. For the most part, those who object to it do so because they personally dislike the practice. How hypocritical would it be of someone to say they had a problem with live feeding because they consider it cruel, or potentially dangerous to the animal being fed; but then turn around and say they don't care if someone else does it in America because it's legal there? The idea that the fact it's legal makes it okay is frankly a joke. Many things which are not necessarily acceptable practices are legal in many other places. Just as many things which perhaps should be legal are not.


I actually pretty much made this point. I said not all Australians agree, which covers the Australians who support live feeding, and I said not all Americans agree, which covers the Americans who don't. I didn't say that it was okay because it's legal at all, in any of my arguments. My point was not anti-American and I did not put forward an opinion on feeding snakes live prey. I made the point that _overall_ the two cultures are different and hold different beliefs on what is acceptable and what is not, which is clearly what is causing this dispute. Hence, the arguments in this thread can be put down to an _overall_ cultural difference. 

And notechistiger, again I can only speak for Victoria, but here taking animals from the wild is exclusively the province of wildlife officers. The average herp keeper cannot take a snake from the wild, even on an advanced license.


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## garycahill (Oct 28, 2009)

serpenttongue said:


> Yes, but a hide box gives the snake security. A clear plastic box, that exposes the snake from all angles, does not.


 
I agree with this as the snake can be seen, so it's not a "hide"
We all know that snakes will go into their hides when they feel stressed to hide, among other reasons.

I am not against this method of displaying them for short periods though.


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## Kersten (Oct 28, 2009)

never_stopped_me said:


> I actually pretty much made this point. I said not all Australians agree, which covers the Australians who support live feeding, and I said not all Americans agree, which covers the Americans who don't. I didn't say that it was okay because it's legal at all, in any of my arguments. My point was not anti-American and I did not put forward an opinion on feeding snakes live prey. I made the point that _overall_ the two cultures are different and hold different beliefs on what is acceptable and what is not, which is clearly what is causing this dispute. Hence, the arguments in this thread can be put down to an _overall_ cultural difference.



I'm afraid we haven't made the same point at all, I'm attempting to make the point this is a very individual matter and that the decisions are not made because of laws or perceived cultural norms. The second paragraph, referring to anti-americanism wasn't aimed at you at all.


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## never_stopped_me (Oct 28, 2009)

Perhaps I'm not communicating my point very clearly then, we're not making conflicting points at all. I am in no way arguing that a person's decisions and preferences are made because of the laws or cultural norms in their area. I don't believe that at all. I know that each person will keep their snakes in the way they feel is best, regardless of what anyone around them does. However, the cultural norms DO have an influence over a person's decisions. We all learn how to keep our snakes from somewhere, we all get our information from somewhere. If the overwhelming majority of the information available here in Australia indicates that live prey is bad, and if the laws reflect that, obviously there are going to be less people here who use live prey than in America, where live prey is seen as normal. Would you not agree?


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## Kersten (Oct 28, 2009)

never_stopped_me said:


> If the overwhelming majority of the information available here in Australia indicates that live prey is bad, and if the laws reflect that, obviously there are going to be less people here who use live prey than in America, where live prey is seen as normal. Would you not agree?


If it were the case that the overwhelming majority of information in Australia indicates that live feeding is bad then I would agree. However, about the only place you ever hear about live feeding being an issue are on herp sites such as this one....and even then it's amazing how many people have no idea it's illegal.


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## never_stopped_me (Oct 28, 2009)

Well I can't comment on that any further, because the overwhelming majority of information I've encountered personally, online and otherwise, indicates that live prey is bad, but I certainly haven't read all the information available in this country on herp husbandry. If you've encountered more sources that say live prey is absolutely fine, I can see where our views don't meet.


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## Kersten (Oct 28, 2009)

never_stopped_me said:


> Well I can't comment on that any further, because the overwhelming majority of information I've encountered personally, online and otherwise, indicates that live prey is bad, but I certainly haven't read all the information available in this country on herp husbandry. If you've encountered more sources that say live prey is absolutely fine, I can see where our views don't meet.


Sorry, now I'm not expressing myself properly....which is why you should never type and talk on the phone at the same time. It seems to be more that people don't know. Not that they're reading that live feeding is okay.


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## never_stopped_me (Oct 28, 2009)

Oh I see! I understand now, and I agree. I suppose a lot of sources give a list of things the snake would eat in the wild, or else they give a list of things to feed the snake, but they don't specify whether the prey should be frozen or live. To me, having belonged to communities like this since I first took an interest in snakes, the "frozen" bit seems obvious, but I suppose if you haven't had the exposure to sites like this then that information needs to be stated.


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## Sidonia (Oct 28, 2009)

LOL @ people being outraged over the display enclosures... Because snakes never curl up in tight places for any period of time, ever. 

Sorry if it's already been pointed out. I tend to skim through all the APSBS


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## Australis (Oct 28, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Well I am guilty of being an American... I am a Yankee on top of it... Straight from the streets of New York City... LOL
> Just to clear some things up..



Dare i say "generally" from an Australian perspective it doesn't matter if you live in Texas or Chicago
we just call all North Americans "Yanks"..( or "Seppos" ).. even when we know better.



GreggMadden said:


> Live feeding is not illegal here... I have fed some of my vipers live rodents... Whats the big deal??? Its over pretty fast... Plus you get to see how your reptile would actually hunt its meal... Is it entertaining??? Yes it is... I am sure most of us have watched a nature show where a croc drags a zebra into the water by its head... Why did you not shut off the tvor change the channel??? Because you were entertained... Please, do not make it out to be a bad thing that people are actually entertained by nature no matter how cruel it can be...



We can both probably agree , it didn't need to be an expensive morph.. i think that makes it a lame gimmick
more than an exhibition of nature... just chasing some wan k-factor.
I definately find predation entertaining, one of the best ive seen recently was a medium sized retic going
at top speed through the canopy literally chasing down monkeys.




GreggMadden said:


> Anyway, this has been an interesting read... I actually like this place... My skin is thick so I doubt I will be running off when someone else posts so silly thread about how bad Americans are... LOL



How could you like this place??? its full of ignorant Australian convicts or something.. haha
Ive found it an interesting read as well, some people are so desperate to defend Americans
from criticism.. they must get good price on kneepads at rebel sports store.


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## learner74 (Oct 29, 2009)

*Yanks?*

I was watching youtube a couple days ago and seen this vid. It Is amazing what is in the eggs but look how he handles them:evil: . And those guys at the snake show don't have respect for there animals! The vid is called "Check this out 18 snakes in 8 eggs"


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## Tsubakai (Oct 29, 2009)

Dabool you neglected to mention that the albino in the first photo was a non-feeder with a serious genetic fault. Want to fill in the rest of the story?


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## carpetmuncher (Oct 29, 2009)

for the people who are so distraught at the tiny boxes, i'd hate to pay your freight bill when you send something interstate. what do you need for a hatchy stimmy, a cubic metre box, just so it's not cramped.

as already said, they go into smaller hide boxes, and are quite ok bagged up, so where is all this cruelty suppositions coming from?

too precious.

i thought dabool was only about 12, or is he/she older? must be older, just bought a house in the US.


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## waruikazi (Oct 29, 2009)

Tsubakai said:


> Dabool you neglected to mention that the albino in the first photo was a non-feeder with a serious genetic fault. Want to fill in the rest of the story?



And the plot thickens...


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## -Matt- (Oct 29, 2009)

Tsubakai said:


> Dabool you neglected to mention that the albino in the first photo was a non-feeder with a serious genetic fault. Want to fill in the rest of the story?


 
Please go on............


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## GreggMadden (Oct 29, 2009)

Australis said:


> Ive found it an interesting read as well, some people are so desperate to defend Americans
> from criticism.. they must get good price on kneepads at rebel sports store.


 
LOL... I think its more about being politically correct or something... Or maybe its just the fact that Americans ROCK!!! Well atleast I do.... :lol:

Well I am far from P.C. and I do not take offence to lame digs at Americans... I can care less...


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## Kersten (Oct 29, 2009)

Tsubakai said:


> Dabool you neglected to mention that the albino in the first photo was a non-feeder with a serious genetic fault. Want to fill in the rest of the story?





waruikazi said:


> And the plot thickens...





Mattsnake said:


> Please go on............



Perhaps Tsubakai is making the point that those who have a problem with the feeding are judging without all the facts to hand. I'm not entirely sure that will matter for those whose objection is to the idea that the snake being eaten is alive.


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## Pujols (Oct 29, 2009)

serpenttongue said:


> Yes, but a hide box gives the snake security. A clear plastic box, that exposes the snake from all angles, does not.


 
Yes i realise that but the reality is that when they're at an expo being displayed to the crowd, they're not going to be ablet to hide no matter what size their enclosure is. The people were clearly opposed to the cramped quarters and not the fact that the box is see through.... I see no problem with the size of the boxes


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## FAY (Oct 29, 2009)

I am going to close this thread as enough has been said.


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