# albino carpet price drop



## spotlight (Jun 28, 2010)

what is everyones veiws on the price drop of the albino carpets? it seems strange to me that for years the womas,blackheads,jungles,greens all stayed at there higher price and now they are all heading down hill fast!!, i bet a heap of breeders got burnt after handing over a small fortune for there breeders hoping to get there money back and then some? , on the other hand its a shame as when i first started keeping snakes 28yrs ago at the age of 10 these snakes where always my dream but i could never afford them and they are such a beautiful animal that they deserved the price!. WHAT IS HAPPENING???


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## Troyster (Jun 28, 2010)

I think it comes down to trends changing.They become more popular making more people want them. Which then turns into more people breeding them and flooding the market with them lowering the price.


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## spotlight (Jun 28, 2010)

yes but look at womas and blackheads they kept there price for many years and never dropped until now?


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## Troyster (Jun 28, 2010)

They are also now on the basic permit in alot of states making them more desirable.Meaning more people will breed them to supply to new herpers which again floods the market lowering the price.


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## Helikaon (Jun 28, 2010)

but you have to remember that bhps and womas supposedly take a bit more talent to breed and they have smaller clutches. darwins, are easy to breed and quick to breed plus have large clutches


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## spotlight (Jun 28, 2010)

yes i unders tand that the size of the clutch makes a difference because i have been breeding blackheads for years and the biggest clutch i have ever had is 8, but now im selling my clutches for $500 each and there are some even selling for $400 ,and as you just said its a lot more work breeding blackheads then carpets


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## spotlight (Jun 28, 2010)

im not into the money for profit,like most larger breeders we use the money to build bigger and better cageing for our animals,expand our animals and buying expensive frozen rats and mice to keep them going (as my wife always told me if they pay for them selves i dont care what you do!! lol )


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## Helikaon (Jun 28, 2010)

my opinon is that it is not just one thing that has caused the change. prices are down on nearly all species simply because supply is getting larger then demand. the hobby has grown massive since a few years ago. but also, ppl dont have as much money to spend at this current time. there fore ppl wanting to off load hatchies will sell them cheap. but also that ppl are ppl and they want to get everything as cheaply as they can.


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## Troyster (Jun 28, 2010)

spotlight said:


> yes i unders tand that the size of the clutch makes a difference because i have been breeding blackheads for years and the biggest clutch i have ever had is 8, but now im selling my clutches for $500 each and there are some even selling for $400 ,and as you just said its a lot more work breeding blackheads then carpets



Striking animals will also always pull more money than the more common looking animals meaning that BHP or Womas or Greens or whatever that stand out from the rest will command a higher price as they will still be desirable to the collector rather than the newer pet keepers.


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## WomaPythons (Jun 28, 2010)

i havnt been into reps for long but when i first got in2 them the bhp womas jungles were all sittin around 900-2000 im amazed in the last 2 years they are that low but i no of alot of ppl buyin 1 python and within the next 3-4 months they have a pair of somethin 2 breed the next season


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## spotlight (Jun 28, 2010)

yes but in saying that ive seen adds come up with the ugliest animals i have ever seen in all my years of herping with the words (reduced black ,reduced pattern ,hypo,) at stupid prices and i remove better looking animals from local yards


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## -Matt- (Jun 28, 2010)

It comes with the hobby, as animals become more common and less desirable they drop in price. It's all about supply and demand.


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## Chadleystar (Jun 28, 2010)

Yes have to agree about the supply and demand it also comes down to peoples perception of what is unique or rare in captivity. Line breeding for colours or patterns or traits also has a spin off effect where what people dont need they sell and at a fairly cheep price. Its about getting the right balance between having something unique to offer people and not excessivly breeding these animals to get an end result faster. My 2 cents any how


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## dottyback (Jun 29, 2010)

I think its great for Victoria, now there is more choice to be found in pet shops, Amazing Amazon in Victoria has a 6 month old male albino for $1600!


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## Kenshin (Jun 29, 2010)

quiet well known that this years young albino's will be going for around 1k no more no less......


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## Kurto (Jun 29, 2010)

Supply and demand!!!! If there's alot of supply and not a lot of demand, the price will drop!!! I for one am happy to be able to pick up an albino cheap!!! Now if I could just pick up a super zebra for next to nix I'll be laughing!!!


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## JAS101 (Jun 29, 2010)

dottyback said:


> I think its great for Victoria, now there is more choice to be found in pet shops, Amazing Amazon in Victoria has a 6 month old male albino for $1600!


 i too think its great , only because i plan on buying some albinos later this year


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## AM Pythons (Jun 29, 2010)

ppl said they would sell there albino's for 1k last year, it didnt happen, see what happens this season.. im looking forward to cheaper albino's aswell, maybe one day they will be the same price as 'good' carpets..if ppl keep breeding them like they are & make them more common they will..


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## AUSHERP (Jun 29, 2010)

too many people see the price on these animals and start breeding as many as they can as fast as they can, when you cant get rid of animals you drop the price. its getting worse every year.


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

Worse for who? ANd is it really a bad thing?



AUSHERP said:


> too many people see the price on these animals and start breeding as many as they can as fast as they can, when you cant get rid of animals you drop the price. its getting worse every year.


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## python_dan89 (Jun 29, 2010)

looking forward to buying one of these in the future would be awesome if they dropped under the 1000 mark. 

cheers


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## aussie-albino (Jun 29, 2010)

It depends on the animals you want, yellow and rp albinos seem to be staying at around $2000,


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## AUSHERP (Jun 29, 2010)

@ waruikaz, worse for the breeder not the buyer, pretty soon its gonna be at the stage where you keep what you wanna hold back and cull the rest if you can't sell it for 50 bucks. its great that there is so much variety in terms of suppliers but within a couple of seasons everyones gonna be a supplier and then who will you offload your excess to? i saw central beardeds advertised for $20 the other day and thick tailed geckos for $40, i picked up 2 macs and a childreni 18 months old last week for $160 the lot, (bargain!!) but where does that leave our hobby when there is no one left to sell to? will people keep line breeding? will we get to see the awesome colours and patterns that we all know are coming from some of the projects around? or with the sour taste of putting clutch after clutch in the freezer will everyone call it a day?


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## JAS101 (Jun 29, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> @ waruikaz, worse for the breeder not the buyer, pretty soon its gonna be at the stage where you keep what you wanna hold back and cull the rest if you can't sell it for 50 bucks. its great that there is so much variety in terms of suppliers but within a couple of seasons everyones gonna be a supplier and then who will you offload your excess to? i saw central beardeds advertised for $20 the other day and thick tailed geckos for $40, i picked up 2 macs and a childreni 18 months old last week for $160 the lot, (bargain!!) but where does that leave our hobby when there is no one left to sell to? will people keep line breeding? will we get to see the awesome colours and patterns that we all know are coming from some of the projects around? or with the sour taste of putting clutch after clutch in the freezer will everyone call it a day?


 thats a bit melodramatic isnt it , there will allways be pepole out there who are willing to pay good $ for good quality animals .


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## -Matt- (Jun 29, 2010)

Good quality animal are always going to fetch bigger dollars and be more in demand than say your average looking coastal or spotted (which still do sell at a lower price). There is always going to be a new flavor of the month as different morphs are bred and these are the animals that fetch the higher price tags due to being in high demand. It will chop and change all the time as different animals come in and out of 'fashion' .....as the hobby expands there will always be people to sell to.


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## MonitorMayhem (Jun 29, 2010)

I think a lot of breeders may not breed certain species because they are just to hard to get rid of i didnt worry even putting some together because the hassle of trying to get rid off them its an interesting time in the hobby to see what happens with prices i am waiting for the price to drop on albinos myself. but i am happy to pay good money for the right animals.


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## AUSHERP (Jun 29, 2010)

thats right, people are happy to pay good money for good animals but the supply can't keep up with the demand as far as good animals go, it takes a few seasons to develop anything new, so what happens to all the duds in between? perhaps a bit melo dramatic on my last post but its hard to get a point across with no tone of voice or waving of the arms.......


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## zuesowns (Jun 29, 2010)

Curious what was the price range 10 years ago and the price range now? Juvies and Adults


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## AUSHERP (Jun 29, 2010)

what species @ zuesowns.


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## -Matt- (Jun 29, 2010)

What defines a 'dud' though? Everyone has different opinions on what it quality and their favourite snake to keep. Some of my favourite snakes are worth next to nothing to most people, while others are at the high end of the price scale.


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

Prices coming down is not evidence for mass euthenasing of entire clutches. What i think we are more likely to see is animals given away free and when these suppliers realize that they are working at a significant loss they will cease supplying.

I think you have your thinking twisted up. Prices coming down opens the market up, it doesn't close it down. Reptiles being available at less than $50 makes them affordable for many more people than when they were a few hundred bucks each. 



AUSHERP said:


> @ waruikaz, worse for the breeder not the buyer, pretty soon its gonna be at the stage where you keep what you wanna hold back and cull the rest if you can't sell it for 50 bucks. its great that there is so much variety in terms of suppliers but within a couple of seasons everyones gonna be a supplier and then who will you offload your excess to? i saw central beardeds advertised for $20 the other day and thick tailed geckos for $40, i picked up 2 macs and a childreni 18 months old last week for $160 the lot, (bargain!!) but where does that leave our hobby when there is no one left to sell to? will people keep line breeding? will we get to see the awesome colours and patterns that we all know are coming from some of the projects around? or with the sour taste of putting clutch after clutch in the freezer will everyone call it a day?


 


AUSHERP said:


> thats right, people are happy to pay good money for good animals but the supply can't keep up with the demand as far as good animals go, it takes a few seasons to develop anything new, so what happens to all the duds in between? perhaps a bit melo dramatic on my last post but its hard to get a point across with no tone of voice or waving of the arms.......


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

AND! All you need to do is look at pet shop prices to get an idea of what the general public is happy to pay for a reptile. Those prices are still right up there. What we are seeing is that APS is coming to saturation point, we are producing more animals than we can sell to each other.


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## zuesowns (Jun 29, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> what species @ zuesowns.



Albino Carpet Python


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## zuesowns (Jun 29, 2010)

I agree - the pet shops prices are up there and they are only the smaller pythons species (childreni's). Pet shop prices are double if not more than APS and the APS breeders have much better selection, healthy, quality pythons than some/most pet shops.


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

They weren't available ten years ago.



zuesowns said:


> Albino Carpet Python


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## Kenshin (Jun 29, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> They weren't available ten years ago.


 
think he was talking reptile prices across board in general

ect look at roughscales they are now 1k a pair as aposed to the 24k a pair when they first came out less then 5yrs ago


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## ozziepythons (Jun 29, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> AND! All you need to do is look at pet shop prices to get an idea of what the general public is happy to pay for a reptile. Those prices are still right up there. What we are seeing is that APS is coming to saturation point, we are producing more animals than we can sell to each other.


 
Yeah mate I agree, but we have a pet shop in Adelaide that ask very high prices for their specimens and they are so slow to move that some have been for sale for years! Yet I had some MDs advertised for $60 each on here and no one wanted them, so deleted the ad (kept them instead).


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## Kenshin (Jun 29, 2010)

theres a pet shop in perth that has reptiles for sale all of them are in appauling conditions and are housed wrong (despite me having a sitdown with the manager and explaining basic husbandry for the species he had and citeing various books!), they charge the earth for them and the animals themselves are shhhhhithouse condition to the point where they regularly lose animals

example they have had some ackies for the better part of 4 years that still havent sold and wont sell due to the fact they want 450 (used to be 650) each for them and they are skinny and small, theyre colourless due to bad condition and have severe constriction to the point where they are missing most theyre limbs and large section of tail......

most of theyre stock that hasent died they have had since they got theyre licence to sell reptiles thats the better part of 5 years......


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> what species @ zuesowns.


 


zuesowns said:


> Albino Carpet Python


 


waruikazi said:


> They weren't available ten years ago.


 


Kenshin said:


> think he was talking reptile prices across board in general
> 
> ect look at roughscales they are now 1k a pair as aposed to the 24k a pair when they first came out less then 5yrs ago


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

I know a pet shop that can't keep up with demand. 



Kenshin said:


> theres a pet shop in perth that has reptiles for sale all of them are in appauling conditions and are housed wrong (despite me having a sitdown with the manager and explaining basic husbandry for the species he had and citeing various books!), they charge the earth for them and the animals themselves are shhhhhithouse condition to the point where they regularly lose animals
> 
> example they have had some ackies for the better part of 4 years that still havent sold and wont sell due to the fact they want 450 (used to be 650) each for them and they are skinny and small, theyre colourless due to bad condition and have severe constriction to the point where they are missing most theyre limbs and large section of tail......
> 
> most of theyre stock that hasent died they have had since they got theyre licence to sell reptiles thats the better part of 5 years......


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## Kenshin (Jun 29, 2010)

my head hurts.............


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## AUSHERP (Jun 29, 2010)

my head hurts too..... what i'm saying is.... pff i don't know. the markets flooded and we can't sell our stuff. and everyone you offer either doesnt have the room or has found it cheaper elsewhere. the market demand defines what is a dud, not me or anyone else, i love em all.


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## Kenshin (Jun 29, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> my head hurts too..... what i'm saying is.... pff i don't know. the markets flooded and we can't sell our stuff. and everyone you offer either doesnt have the room or has found it cheaper elsewhere. the market demand defines what is a dud, not me or anyone else, i love em all.


 
id agree with that, you cant move the young = headache


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## waruikazi (Jun 29, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> my head hurts too..... what i'm saying is.... pff i don't know. the markets flooded and we can't sell our stuff. and everyone you offer either doesnt have the room or has found it cheaper elsewhere. the market demand defines what is a dud, not me or anyone else, i love em all.


 
Ur not trying to say anything ur just having a waaaaah cause you don't have the quality of animals at the right price and ur not making the millions that you planned you would. Would you beleive that we are now coming into line with every other animal keeper hobby where we are lucky to break even on our costs if we choose to breed? Well beleive it because we are.


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## Jungletrans (Jun 29, 2010)

As the prices drop the people who breed just to make money will stop , or move on to labradoodles or parrot x monkey [ l want one of those ] [ no 2 so l can breed them ] or something . The price for Quality animals should find a nice level while cheap reptiles will go to people who just want one .


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## -Matt- (Jun 29, 2010)

Believe it or not there is more to the reptile community/selling side of things than APS


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## spotlight (Jun 29, 2010)

well i can tell you there is no way i will be selling my albinos for less then $2000.00 ,and as for high yellow or lavenda you need to hold them back to see the result and for the buyer this is half the fun of buying one (lucky dip effect) just like watching your green tree change from yellow or red to green or blue, these snakes deserve there price and all breeders should hold the price higher to show this respect (otherwise where will the hobby be if like my self over 30yrs ago at age 10 there are no dreams to aim for like that $6000.00 green tree python ?


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## spotlight (Jun 29, 2010)

tell us more?


Mattsnake said:


> Believe it or not there is more to the reptile community/selling side of things than APS


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## zuesowns (Jun 29, 2010)

what were albinos when they first came out to now?


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## spotlight (Jun 29, 2010)

zuesowns said:


> what were albinos when they first came out to now?


 
they started at $10,000 then sat at $6000.00 for a long time until just the last year


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## AUSHERP (Jun 30, 2010)

not talking about good quality or even myself, and i dont plan to make millions, i'm a reptile keeper not a moneymaker. we are talking about the market in general not on a personal level, and my posts are just my ideas and observations....


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

Spotlight is right with the high end animals I won't be selling cheap albinos either, I am not a money maker just a collector, saving to buy a beautiful animal is part of the hobby. Who really wants animals from a place mass producing them and selling them cheap with all sorts of feeding problems and health issues, instead of from a breeder who personally cares for each animals needs on a daily basis. Just my opinion. Look at Thailand and the animals arriving in the US from there, is that really what Aussie herpers are chasing. The way prices are going and the lack of support shown for the good breeders, that is where we are headed big growers producing masses of sub standard stock.

cheers
Scott


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## zuesowns (Jun 30, 2010)

I thought I saw some albino's for 3000 (singles) - does that mean they have dropped again?


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

There have been a few out there for under $2000, but have been snapped up real quick, most, not all though have been at places no self respecting herper would by an animal from. (remember I said not all)

cheers
Scott


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## AUSHERP (Jun 30, 2010)

the problem is we are heading for a woolworths style market, where everything is right at your fingertips for next to nothing, you can talk about quality animals at high prices all you want but at the end of the day majority of people just want a bargain as long as the animal 'seems' ok. if you can get a pair or trio for the price of one, i wonder which deal the majority would want, and im not talking just about APS because as mattsnake said the market does go beyond....


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

I agree Ausherp and I think that is why the hobby is on the road it is, people don't care if it's made in Thailand, and doesn't work, as long as it cost 20 cents. The unfortunate thing is reptiles are animals not a dodgy plastic toy.

cheers
Scott


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## AUSHERP (Jun 30, 2010)

thats the issue, but problems down the track are just that, down the track and majority are willing to take the risk


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

that's right Ausherp, hopefully those of us that choose to maintain a standard, can manage to remain obvious, so when the mud pool settles and people get sick of purchasing animals that won't eat or up and die on them, the better option will be easy to see.

cheers
Scott


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## caustichumor (Jun 30, 2010)

There are plenty of people with breeding age albinos now, and there would be at least that number again with hets. So every year more albinos and hets are produced than the year before (infact the number produced every year would have to at least double each year by this stage). So unless a large proportion of people who own breeding age animals are not planning on breeding them, than soon there will be more produced than will sell (evan at $1000 each) These are Darwin pythons after all, they are hardy, easy to breed and produce large clutches.


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## ad (Jun 30, 2010)

So, does the price charged equate to the animal quality and breeders reputation?
Ive seen albino's sold as cheap as $500 this season, next season they will commonly be available for this price.
The dam walls are crumbling around the albino breeders claiming "I wont sell mine cheap because I am a quality breeder", eventually you will have to, which will create another flood - its spiralling quickly.
They are no longer an investment animal - they are now at pet level.
Cheers
Adam


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## nathancl (Jun 30, 2010)

im with Ad,

wake up to yourself there is plenty around these days, just because an albino is cheap doesnt mean it has feeding problems or is going to die! you will be forced to sell them cheap unless what you are producing is anything different from whats available.


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

No you are quite correct nathancl cheap doesn't necessarily mean there is something wrong with them it does however encourage clowns to buy them, cheap animals will encourage people to try and mass produce animals in conditions that are not maintained hygenically, which is already happening , causing very quickly what I mentioned above made in Thailand 20 cent pythons that don't work. Mine are not bought as an investment just something I really wanted, and others would do the same if people weren't breeding animals they have no intention of caring for and so selling them cheap. Take the time to look at my animals and you will see mine are something different.

cheers
Scott


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## -Matt- (Jun 30, 2010)

As has been said cheap does not equal low quality animals...I have purchased very high quality and in demand animals off well known breeders for ridiculously cheap prices (purely because they are good people!)

To those that say they won't sell their albinos for under $2000 when the going price is under $1000 - would you prefer to sell them at the going rate to those that want them OR would you rather hold onto a whole clutch that you have to feed and house purely because you can't get rid of them at 'your' price?


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## Travisty (Jun 30, 2010)

Well said Matt


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## Jason (Jun 30, 2010)

i agree with ad... good luck to those who believe they'll be selling albinos for 2K each this season... i will be amazed! they'll likely get to 1200 rather quickly and i know some people will be selling considerably cheaper again. price does not have anything to do with the quality of breeder. if somebody wants an inflated price because they have a big head and believe they are better then others, they need to get over themselves! aniamsl are and always will be only worth what someone is willing to pay. if i sell animals cheap it does not mean that they are sick, diseased, bad feeders etc, nor does it mean that i desperately need to move them or want to drop prices... it may be that im happy to get the cheaper price because unlike ALOT of people (who actually claime they aren't in it for money, although it generally seems to be their number 1 concern) i really dont mind if i dont get top dollar. as long as the animals i produce find suitable homes with people that will get the enjoyment out of keeping them that i do.


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## cement (Jun 30, 2010)

I think it will be interesting to see how many are breed this year and the prices they (albino Darwins) go for.
Just because someone see's a low priced animal or knows someone who picked up a cheap bargain doesn't really reveal the true market. There is still a large void to be filled by albino darwins with a hell of a lot of people wanting them.

Any one with animals breeding this year bought from hatchlings2.5 yr ago paid a lot of money. Selling the offspring cheap will be a kick in the guts. You took the risk , the gamble, your doing the work necessary to breed them, why sell off cheap. 

Theres a lot of people on here that talk them down because they want some without the effort that others have had to put in.


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## JAS101 (Jun 30, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> As has been said cheap does not equal low quality animals...I have purchased very high quality and in demand animals off well known breeders for ridiculously cheap prices (purely because they are good people!)
> 
> To those that say they won't sell their albinos for under $2000 when the going price is under $1000 - would you prefer to sell them at the going rate to those that want them OR would you rather hold onto a whole clutch that you have to feed and house purely because you can't get rid of them at 'your' price?


 very well said , i think the next few years will be very interesting in the whole albino world .


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

Hi Mattsnake the simple answer is yes I will keep them, I have family and friends who want them, I have orders for some already at $2000, as Cement said a couple of cheap snakes isn't an indication of the market, and I agree a lot of people are trying to push that way and talk them down because they don't want to do the work, and I don't want my pythons in the hands of people who won't appreciate what they have. You are lucky you know someone who needed to move some high quality animals and got them cheap. Quality pythons don't come from a factory.

Cheers
Scott


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## spotlight (Jun 30, 2010)

basically my veiw is that with out high prices the up and coming herpers (kids just starting) have nothing to look forward too or dream about because unlike the rest of us who started from the bottom with childrens and skinks,they will go straight into a albino or green ( and yes at a low price no matter what you say they will be lower quality!)


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Pfffft! A great great many keepers are not like us that want to have a collection. They just want one snake to keep like a gold fish. Something to look pretty in the lounge room. The majority of keepers don't care if their animal is hypo, hyper or if they have more reptiles than the next person. Besides that there are heaps of other things to look forward to other than joining that elite albino/hyper/granite/jag/tiger stripe club. 

If you really beleive that the hobby has a vested interest in keeping the prices on certain animals out-of-reach for the average herper then do something about it! Stop churning out your 'dream' reptiles and reduce the supply, cause remember supply divided by demand equals market price. 



spotlight said:


> basically my veiw is that with out high prices the up and coming herpers (kids just starting) have nothing to look forward too or dream about because unlike the rest of us who started from the bottom with childrens and skinks,they will go straight into a albino or green ( and yes at a low price no matter what you say they will be lower quality!)


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## Kristy_07 (Jun 30, 2010)

I think there will still be things to look forward to. The hobby is changing fairly rapidly, and there will always be a new more expensive trend. And for the younger herpers.... who's mum is going to buy that a $2000 green or albino anyway? I wish mine would!


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## levis04 (Jun 30, 2010)

I think Ads is right they are comming down fast, there is no need to get upset about it just wait and see.


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Haha i can't get over the arrogance of your views. 

People should dream to have what i have because mine are worth more money . 
I'm keeping my prices high for the sake of the children, for the children dammit! **vomits in mouth**
It's not fair! I had to wait 30 years walking bare foot for ten miles through the snow before i got a green python, you kids have it too easy these days. *crosses arms and pouts*



spotlight said:


> basically my veiw is that with out high prices the up and coming herpers (kids just starting) have nothing to look forward too or dream about because unlike the rest of us who started from the bottom with childrens and skinks,they will go straight into a albino or green ( and yes at a low price no matter what you say they will be lower quality!)


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## Waterrat (Jun 30, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Haha i can't get over the arrogance of your views.


 

Gordo, pull your head in! Your views are just as arrogant sometimes.


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## spotlight (Jun 30, 2010)

well said!,mate that is what you got out of what i said! its not what i was meaning


Waterrat said:


> Gordo, pull your head in! Your views are just as arrogant sometimes.


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## Klaery (Jun 30, 2010)

I really don't see how the price could ever possibly be expected to stay high?? Hardy python that breeds easily producing a large clutch size. Don't have to be a rocket scientist to crunch the numbers :/


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## spotlight (Jun 30, 2010)

starting from the bottom made alot of us what we are today in the herping community and i would never change that even if i had the chance to do it over.


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## spotlight (Jun 30, 2010)

why did Greens and others stay high for so long?


danielk said:


> I really don't see how the price could ever possibly be expected to stay high?? Hardy python that breeds easily producing a large clutch size. Don't have to be a rocket scientist to crunch the numbers :/


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## spotlight (Jun 30, 2010)

even with shedding ,prolapse broblems they still held there $6000 for many years


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## solar 17 (Jun 30, 2010)

l personally think a couple of points have been overlooked on the reason as to why Albino Darwins are coming down in price...one person controlled these who is a clever marketeer who asks premium prices, now in the first release [to the public] only females were released, thus the best you could hope for was one clutch as opposed to releasing males that could cover several females and you still only have hets...which definately prolonged the roll-out to great advantage of the original breeder, but l do feel already there are a few [very nice]mutations and decisive colour patterns forming already, so quality and unusual patterns will attract higher than usual/normal prices.....cheers solar 17 [Baden]


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

I did take a bit of creative development in coming up with my last post lol. 

C'mon mate your post wreaked of arrogance, you said that in your view people should aspire to own the expensive animals and you are some how doing the future of this hobby a favor by keeping your prices high... For the children. ROFL!

I have a sneaking suspicion that you have a differnt motive for wanting to keep the prices high but if your comment is your true POV. Then lol, just lol. 



spotlight said:


> well said!,mate that is what you got out of what i said! its not what i was meaning


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

There's alot of reasons, but i would assume that the biggest reasons were the problems with incubating and getting neonates established (i haven't bred greens but i do know folk who do).

BUT when they were available in good numbers.... Guess what happened... Go on guess. 



spotlight said:


> why did Greens and others stay high for so long?


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## syeph8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Kenshin said:


> quiet well known that this years young albino's will be going for around 1k no more no less......


 
so what you are saying is that they will be going for _exactly around_ $1000?  rip off at 1001, dodgy if 999


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## -Matt- (Jun 30, 2010)

Well Scotty all I can say is good luck to you mate, and if you'll be getting $2000 a snake this season than you are doing much better than most. On the comment about me being lucky to get quality animals for cheap because they 'needed' to be moved on....they didn't 'need' to be moved on at all, it's just nice to have mates in the hobby that aren't out there to scrape every dollar out of you.


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## Waterrat (Jun 30, 2010)

danielk said:


> Don't have to be a rocket scientist to crunch the numbers :/



That's good that someone is qualified to crunch the numbers, make predictions and constantly talk the prices down. You lot are elite, you know that?
The rest of us are busy looking our reptiles, researching their biology and restlessly aiming to improve captive husbandry. Each to their own. Art critics are also being tolerated in our society.


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

Mattsnake as I said lucky though, quality pythons take time and effort to produce, nothing leaves here that is sub standard. My friends and family can look forward to cheap pythons as well, if people don't want to pay what they are worth. People pay thousands of dollars for dogs and birds, travel half way around the country to pick them up, are pythons somehow different.

cheers
Scott


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## Kenshin (Jun 30, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> That's good that someone is qualified to crunch the numbers, make predictions and constantly talk the prices down. You lot are elite, you know that?
> The rest of us are busy looking our reptiles, researching their biology and restlessly aiming to improve captive husbandry. Each to their own. Art critics are also being tolerated in our society.


 
wow waterrat i would have got a pm in my inbox from fay for insulting members if i posted that!


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## -Matt- (Jun 30, 2010)

Pythons are no different to anything else, there are people that complain in every hobby and the price drops in every hobby too. It always comes back those two words 'supply' & 'demand'... I have bred fish and birds and have seen it happen.....I don't breed to make money, I keep animals because I enjoy them, my mates that are waiting for me to breed certain animals that I have can look forward to getting them for next to nothing.
People can whinge about prices dropping all they want but it isn't going to change anything...however the ones whinging are usually the ones that are in it for the money.


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## solar 17 (Jun 30, 2010)

*Price Drop....Hey you people show me one item/thing/whatever that cant be haggled down a bit or isn't reduced.... absolute prime quality items in life are the only items that are holding close to their original mark/price its our society in general thats feeling the pinch.....times are getting tuff not just our hobby....cheers solar 17 [Baden]*


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## Waterrat (Jun 30, 2010)

Kenshin said:


> wow waterrat i would have got a pm in my inbox from fay for insulting members if i posted that!


 
Why? Is it off the topic? lol

Mate, just step outside the square and look at the number of hits on this thread (over 1800 or so). How does it compare to the number of posters? What does it tell you? There is about 1780 people interested in reptiles who don't give a rat's a.... about out waffling and number crunching. There is another mob out there, those who never go near reptile forums. I know many of them and some of them are very respected herpetologists, breeders, keepers, etc.. Do you still think that your scientific number crunching is going to have any effect or influence on what goes on in the real world?


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## Klaery (Jun 30, 2010)

It's a market like any other. But I really don't care enough to argue, was just giving my view.


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

I am not whinging Mattsnake merely stating my case, I breed pythons for my pleasure not profit as I said earlier I don't want my pythons in the hands of people that don't value them. People wanting to talk the price down are really not interested in the animals IMO.

cheers
Scott


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## nathancl (Jun 30, 2010)

if your not willing to pay higher prices over lower prices you dont value your animals nor deserve them.


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## syeph8 (Jun 30, 2010)

nathancl said:


> if your not willing to pay higher prices over lower prices you dont value your animals nor deserve them.


 


Scotty1 said:


> I am not whinging Mattsnake merely stating my case, I breed pythons for my pleasure not profit as I said earlier I don't want my pythons in the hands of people that don't value them. People wanting to talk the price down are really not interested in the animals IMO.
> 
> cheers
> Scott



thats a bit like saying "if you're not willing ot pay 100 bucks for a sandwich you dont like food and therefor deserve to starve" if sandwiches were all going at 100 bucks then fair enough, but if most sangas go for $5 then its reasonable to ask "what is so special about this sanga that you feel you can sell it for $100? when joe jimmy down the road there has great sangas for $5".
It costs about 80 bucks to get a blue tongue and i know many people with them who adore the hell out of em, so i dont understand this argument of "if you wont pay $1000 for an MD then you must not like MD's and if you try haggle you obviously dont care about them" the only sense i get is that not only does this person want a snake enough to appear cheap to you but he's also frugle enough to ensure he can go on providing care for it. 

Sye


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## cement (Jun 30, 2010)

...however the ones whinging are usually the ones that are in it for the money.[/QUOTE]

I don't quite agree on this. I believe the ones who don't have the motivation, the love, the attentiveness to detail, or the straight out ability to be able to afford, or take the personal risk at having a go are the ones who whine!!

EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE!!


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## Danish (Jun 30, 2010)

There albino daewins on another site now
$1000ea,
see how quik they sell.
I think its great for the hobby that prices are coming down,
theres heap of people only in this hobby for the money,
if you realy love keeping herps,the prices shouldnt bother you.
It doesnt bother me,i dont keep more then i can afford to keep,
so i dont need rely on sales to keep my herps going,
when my snakes breed in the next 12 months,
which will be murrys,i will more then likley take them
to the herp society and give them to some youg herpers,
but thats just me.


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## nathancl (Jun 30, 2010)

lol i was just taking the mickey with my last comment i didnt actually believe it.


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

nathancl said:


> lol i was just taking the mickey with my last comment i didnt actually believe it.


 
Nath you need to use smileys then like this


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## syeph8 (Jun 30, 2010)

nathancl said:


> lol i was just taking the mickey with my last comment i didnt actually believe it.


 
ahh im not the greatest interpreter of internet sarcasm. but ill still quote you as saying it, you capitalist swine!


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## waruikazi (Jun 30, 2010)

Lets see if this one works... :hearts:

nope... no good


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## Waterrat (Jun 30, 2010)

Nothing stirs the possum more than a thread about money in the reptile hobby. Here we go, 7 pages about nothing really, just arguments and the occasional insult. Lets keep amusing the audience, i.e. those 2008 watching this thread. It's like pornography.


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## mungus (Jun 30, 2010)

Watching Discovery Channel is better............lol


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## ad (Jun 30, 2010)

:lol: have you seen the price greens are going to be this season?


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## caustichumor (Jun 30, 2010)

If you want to make pre-2007 albino Darwin money these days, you might want to sell up and buy some Jags, or Wait until Zebra/Granite Morelia morphs or Albino Blackheads magically appear in Australian classifieds. Anyway the most dramatic drop in recent years would have to have been Rough scaled pythons. What where RSP's selling for a couple of years ago $15000 each? and now you can pick up a pair for $1500. Albino macs will go through the same price drop (and 15 years down the track there will be threads about how the bottom is falling out of that market), however seeing as Antaresia clutches are not as large as Morelia, they might hold their value for longer.


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## Mr.James (Jun 30, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> It's like pornography.



Good porn cost money to watch, so glad this is free!


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## -Matt- (Jun 30, 2010)

Whinging, arrogance and egos are all terrible things that seem to go hand in hand with the reptile hobby...this thread has seen all of them.


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## troycoop (Jun 30, 2010)

It can be solved easy don't breed them. If you say your not in it for the money then you dont need to breed them. I payed $5000 1.5 years ago and now there going for $1500 but thats the risk of buying a (PET)
Troy


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## syeph8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> Whinging, arrogance and egos are all terrible things that seem to go hand in hand with the reptile hobby...this thread has seen all of them.


 
what category do i fall under if not all three?


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

all just my opinion, you get what you pay for guys. 

cheers
Scott


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## Waterrat (Jun 30, 2010)

Scotty1 said:


> all just my opinion, you get what you pay for guys.
> 
> cheers
> Scott


 
That's a sweeping statement Scott, did I pay to get Julia Gillard?


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## J-A-X (Jun 30, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> Whinging, arrogance and egos are all terrible things that seem to go hand in hand with the reptile hobby...this thread has seen all of them.



and you have made many posts on this thread, so which category do you put yourself into ??

as far as this thread goes, prices will bottom out of any 'new product' regardless of whether it is a reptile, a car or the 2 metre plasma TV you had to have, the fact that some people are complaining that they are no longer going to make huge profits just reinforces to me that they are in it for the wrong reason,


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## -Matt- (Jun 30, 2010)

Who said anything about categories? They are just aspects that rear their ugly heads all too often.


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

sorry about that one waterrat. Just on holidays at the moment some thing to do for a change I guess. I'd be interested to know what category I'm in. I bred snakes when they were worth nothing and continue to breed snakes that are of little monetary value, coastals, macs, stimmies. I have given a few away this year to people I believed wanted them enough. I am just saying what I think. 

cheers
Scott


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## aussie-albino (Jun 30, 2010)

what I make from my reptiles goes back into my reptiles people who know me know that, and a lot of the money I make from full time work also goes into my reptiles, I think that makes me a hobbyist.

cheers
Scott


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## J-A-X (Jun 30, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> Who said anything about categories? They are just aspects that rear their ugly heads all too often.


 


Mattsnake said:


> Well Scotty all I can say is good luck to you mate, and if you'll be getting $2000 a snake this season than you are doing much better than most. On the comment about me being lucky to get quality animals for cheap because they 'needed' to be moved on....they didn't 'need' to be moved on at all, *it's just nice to have mates in the hobby that aren't out there to scrape every dollar out of you*.


 
the funny thing is i happen to agree with most of what you post, here and on other threads, but the last part of your post above , sounded very arrogant to me, and then you posted
"Whinging, arrogance and egos are all terrible things that seem to go hand in hand with the reptile hobby...this thread has seen all of them." 

you made it sound like as if you think 95% of breeders are nothing more than rip off merchants !

Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and some are willing to pay more than others, for various reasons, mostly for perceived quality and/or beauty, both of which are very individual to the person handing over the money,


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## guzzo (Jun 30, 2010)

Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten............... I had to write something on this thread


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## -Matt- (Jun 30, 2010)

Well I'm sorry that you interpreted it that way, I don't think that at all! I have met some fantastic people in this hobby and also some horrible people...the majority being great people! That statement that you highlighted in bold was in reference to an earlier post about cheap animals being inferior and me justifying why they were so cheap. If people can make good money out of this hobby than I say good on them! They are living the dream.

My next statement was just a general statement relating to the attitudes people have and have plagued this forum of late and this thread...that attitude of people thinking they are better than others and saying how threads are 'crap' and 'useless' but for some reason they still need to post an arrogant comment in there.
My opinion in this thread has been identical to what you have posted just with different wording.
I hope you understand where I am coming from?


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## iamheretic (Jun 30, 2010)

Why do people say if you want to make money in the hobby you are in it for the wrong reasons?

Tell me what is wrong doing something you want to do and making money from it?

Selling snakes to people who want them, and (hopefully) appreciate their value?

Being respected as someone who breeds quality animals?


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## syeph8 (Jun 30, 2010)

iamheretic said:


> Why do people say if you want to make money in the hobby you are in it for the wrong reasons?
> 
> Tell me what is wrong doing something you want to do and making money from it?
> 
> ...



i think the argument is not that you should not hope to earn money from it or try to get out what you put in, but that you should be in the hobby because you want to be in the hobby, love the animals and the process and then money comes last to the appreciation of the animals. i personally dont know a single person who is in it for the wrong reason in this sense. all the people i know who sell reptiles put all money back into a declining market, knowing their investments will depreciate.


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## iamheretic (Jun 30, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> i think the argument is not that you should not hope to earn money from it or try to get out what you put in, but that you should be in the hobby because you want to be in the hobby, love the animals and the process and then money comes last to the appreciation of the animals. i personally dont know a single person who is in it for the wrong reason in this sense. all the people i know who sell reptiles put all money back into a declining market, knowing their investments will depreciate.


 
My brain isn't working very well today, so i don't know how to reply, without sounding stupid, but here it is anyways.

yes ok i accept this idea/statement it is good.

ill edit it tommorow so i don't sound stupid.


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## iamheretic (Jun 30, 2010)

caustichumor said:


> If you want to make pre-2007 albino Darwin money these days, you might want to sell up and buy some Jags, or Wait until Zebra/Granite Morelia morphs or Albino Blackheads magically appear in Australian classifieds. Anyway the most dramatic drop in recent years would have to have been Rough scaled pythons. What where RSP's selling for a couple of years ago $15000 each? and now you can pick up a pair for $1500. Albino macs will go through the same price drop (and 15 years down the track there will be threads about how the bottom is falling out of that market), however seeing as Antaresia clutches are not as large as Morelia, they might hold their value for longer.




URS are now selling RSP for $500 individually.


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## solar 17 (Jul 1, 2010)

iamheretic said:


> URS are now selling RSP for $500 individually.


Thats males only, you left that little item of imformation out....solar 17 [baden]


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## zuesowns (Jul 1, 2010)

There are some people out there that their pythons become family, like a cat or a dog are the most obvious most common ones. I know someone who owns a big fish and he wouldn't sell it even though it's worth 1500 etc because it is part of the family and he said he would rather give it to his friend who is also as passionate about fish as he is than sell it and gain 1500 like that. 

If I was a passionate breeder like some out there, I wouldn't want to sell off my albinos for something they aren't worth. that said like someone else posted in this thread earlier. he said he would rather give them to family or friends who appreciate them rather than flick them off for a quick buck to a person that is going to breed to make profit and not really give a damn about their albino's - I respect that. that said, some breeders will tell if the buyer is passionate about pythons and could give them an albino a bit cheaper, but that is for the right reasons.

reality is though - in time, everything comes down in price and then goes back up in price, but if things are MASS produced they won't come back up in price...

I think albinos are beautiful very striking!, I know they are worth a lot. in the end the quality breeders will get what they are worth over the quantity breeders. hang in there.


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## Waterrat (Jul 1, 2010)

That brings us to the old question - what is "quality snake" how is it recognised and who is able to recognise it. 
I agree with one thing - it's hard to recognise individual quality amongst mass produced clutches and most buyers probably wouldn't be looking for it. How do you find good quality pair of rubber thongs when they are all made in China?


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## iamheretic (Jul 1, 2010)

solar 17 said:


> Thats males only, you left that little item of imformation out....solar 17 [baden]


 
Information gap filled.


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## AUSHERP (Jul 1, 2010)

we weren't saying that just because it is cheaper it is of less quality, what we were saying is that now they are cheaper, a few clowns will get theyre hands on them, breed them, sell them cheaper again,once every tom dick and harry has them and they are being produced like crazy, and people are crossing them with this that and the other.... THEN cheaper is of poorer quality, if you pay $2000 for a snake you are going to respect it and its status, which will prevent you from doing the above, 
high price= high status and respect=good quality animals, thats the point i was trying to put across. IMO


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## waruikazi (Jul 1, 2010)

So no one was crossing albinos with other carpets when they were more expensive? 

What exactly is going to make them poorer quality? Is it just flat out quantity? Or do you somehow know that they are going to all have neurological and physical deformities once production hits 'x' ammount? Maybe because it is tom and dick that are breeding them? And will selling them expensively be a rememedy to the afore mentioned problems?

Silly questions aren't they? No one has a crystal ball good enough to predict what you just have. 



AUSHERP said:


> we weren't saying that just because it is cheaper it is of less quality, what we were saying is that now they are cheaper, a few clowns will get theyre hands on them, breed them, sell them cheaper again,once every tom dick and harry has them and they are being produced like crazy, and people are crossing them with this that and the other.... THEN cheaper is of poorer quality, if you pay $2000 for a snake you are going to respect it and its status, which will prevent you from doing the above,
> high price= high status and respect=good quality animals, thats the point i was trying to put across. IMO


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## AUSHERP (Jul 1, 2010)

ha. maybe we just don't wanna see them as common as everything else. it's nice to have status. from a buyers perspective i am a little excited about the price drop as i can now afford a pair, but is it a good thing for every man and his dog to have one?
you must have a rainbows and butterflies crystal ball that just predicts fairies and picnics...... sorry for the play on your words but silly questions get silly answers.


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## Cheyne_Jones (Jul 1, 2010)

Whats the big deal about the price of these things and weather or not everyone should own one?

In the end they are just a Darwin painted white.... Its not like by owning one of them you are helping to secure some rare endangered animals future... You are not any better than other keepers nor does it give you a 'higher status' than those who dont own them.

They are a hardy breed that reproduces fairly predictably, so its inevitable that the price diminishes over time as they become well established in the hobby. Deal with it.


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## guzzo (Jul 1, 2010)

A different example......Think of the good old English Bull Terrier many years back (when world Safari and Alby Mangles were around)- They used to cost a fortune....everyone wanted one.....some people got hold of them (or borrowed a male etc) and bred them and sold them cheap to everyone (the price dropped) then they began to be crossed with every sort of dog to create the perfect pig hunting dog.....to the point where what the common perception of a Bully was quite different from the original. Countless dogs were created..Some ugly monstrosities and some striking animals. 

But today to by a good quality pure bread English Bull Terrier will still cost you a decent amount of money and you may find that you have to wait in a queue and order a pup before they are born.

My point is well bread ones are still very much in demand.

I know dogs are different from reptiles but it was just an example I thought I would throw out there.


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## montay (Jul 1, 2010)

Your comment really resonated with me. Why is it that when you start breeding snakes it is often seen as 'trying to make a quick buck' or 'jumping on the bandwagon'. My ethos is that I want to make my hobby pay for itself, and to reinvest in other projects. None of us are going to retire because of this hobby, and it's more about being diligent and always doing the best thing by the animals.
cheers



spotlight said:


> im not into the money for profit,like most larger breeders we use the money to build bigger and better cageing for our animals,expand our animals and buying expensive frozen rats and mice to keep them going (as my wife always told me if they pay for them selves i dont care what you do!! lol )


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## JAS101 (Jul 1, 2010)

Cheyne_Jones said:


> Whats the big deal about the price of these things and weather or not everyone should own one?
> 
> In the end they are just a Darwin painted white.... Its not like by owning one of them you are helping to secure some rare endangered animals future... You are not any better than other keepers nor does it give you a 'higher status' than those who dont own them.
> 
> They are a hardy breed that reproduces fairly predictably, so its inevitable that the price diminishes over time as they become well established in the hobby. Deal with it.


 well said , i think its just the breeders that are asking 2k for them that are pissed off causew now they wont beable to sell as many for 2k . i know if i had a chance to buy either one for 2k or 2 for 1k each , i know what way id be going [ 1k option every time]


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## waruikazi (Jul 1, 2010)

BAM! And the truth comes out. 



AUSHERP said:


> ha. *maybe we just don't wanna see them as common as everything else. it's nice to have status.* from a buyers perspective i am a little excited about the price drop as i can now afford a pair, but is it a good thing for every man and his dog to have one?
> you must have a rainbows and butterflies crystal ball that just predicts fairies and picnics...... sorry for the play on your words but silly questions get silly answers.


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## syeph8 (Jul 1, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> That brings us to the old question - what is "quality snake" how is it recognised and who is able to recognise it.
> I agree with one thing - it's hard to recognise individual quality amongst mass produced clutches and most buyers probably wouldn't be looking for it. How do you find good quality pair of rubber thongs when they are all made in China?



good question, nice analogy  i love my made in china thongs and am rarely seen without them in summer time. what is quality to one person is not nessicarily quality to another and you cant trust other peoples judgements as to what a quality animal is. it has been mentioned so many times in this thread "if your not willing to pay top dollar then you obvously dont love them", well not everyone loves their animals, belongings or significant others because they have had to spend serious money on them. if you love your animals more because you have had to pay more money for them, then you love money, not your animals. 



waruikazi said:


> So no one was crossing albinos with other carpets when they were more expensive?
> 
> What exactly is going to make them poorer quality? Is it just flat out quantity? Or do you somehow know that they are going to all have neurological and physical deformities once production hits 'x' ammount? Maybe because it is tom and dick that are breeding them? And will selling them expensively be a rememedy to the afore mentioned problems?
> 
> Silly questions aren't they? No one has a crystal ball good enough to predict what you just have.


 
i agree completely with this quote, i dont understand why someone who is not a well known breeder would produce lower quality offspring than someone like simon stone for example if they are working from the same bloodines. experience maybe? that will affect clutch sizes perhaps, and maybe affect the time taken to get hatchies to feed/shed properly. which is a problem that will occur if you are breeding albinos or MD's and have experience anyway. I just dont see the basis for having an animal as a status symbol?


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## Waterrat (Jul 1, 2010)

montay said:


> Your comment really resonated with me. Why is it that when you start breeding snakes it is often seen as 'trying to make a quick buck' or 'jumping on the bandwagon'. My ethos is that I want to make my hobby pay for itself, and to reinvest in other projects.
> cheers


 

Your words resonate with me. I am seriously considering to embark on a very ambitious and expensive project. I have done my figures and I KNOW the profits from the end product will not meet the expenses. However, if I could subsidize the project from snake sales, I would go ahead. If successful, I would enjoy every minute of it and you - the herp community would also benefit.
Would I be seen as a money grabber?


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## nigmax (Jul 1, 2010)

After reading this thread last night i put a pr of Albino juvies on another site for $1000 each, as of this moment not one response, ?


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## waruikazi (Jul 1, 2010)

Not at all. But if you embark on this venture and when the time comes to sell ur off spring and ur not going to make as much money as you thought you would and then you make a thread whinging about it. Then yeah you would seem like a money grabber.

There is nothing wrong with making some return on your hobby and i don't actually see anything wrong with being a money grabber and wanting to make millions. Just don't blow smoke up our noses by saying ridiculous things like that ur doing for the children lol (I know that wasn't you waterrat lol) or claim that you somehow have a god given right to this fortune. 



Waterrat said:


> Your words resonate with me. I am seriously considering to embark on a very ambitious and expensive project. I have done my figures and I KNOW the profits from the end product will not meet the expenses. However, if I could subsidize the project from snake sales, I would go ahead. If successful, I would enjoy every minute of it and you - the herp community would also benefit.
> Would I be seen as a money grabber?


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## azn4114 (Jul 1, 2010)

nigmax said:


> After reading this thread last night i put a pr of Albino juvies on another site for $1000 each, as of this moment not one response, ?



serious?if so SOLD


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## Waterrat (Jul 1, 2010)

Gordo, my proposed project is not about breeding / selling reptiles. I am looking into visiting all (well, not really all but as many as possible and all the well known) GTP habitats in PNG, West Papua and the islands with my camera and producing a book about the species' ecology, predators and prey, cultural significance and of course lots and lots of smashing images. Estimated cost - 25K


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## guzzo (Jul 1, 2010)

I have an Idea

Maybe we should do what they do with horses, dogs, guinea pigs, budgies, etc and show them
A judge would say to the owner of the winning snake (that showed good muscle tone and colour and had the correct dimensional head and tail and tongue fork) “that is a nice award winning snake” and after a while when it had been dragged around from show to show it would get enough points and could be called an Australian Champion Snake.
People would then buy the offspring for much more money and could proudly declare “this is from an Australian Champion”....Of course there would have to be pedigrees and all people would have to be a member of the Snake Showers association of Australia and pay an annual fee for registration of any offspring. (proceeds would go to the Christmas party for the SSAA)
Then the people who were prepared to endure all the Animal Show Culture could then have their animals segregated from the everyday breeder and be known far and wide as Quality Breeders of purebred Snakes.
Or
I suppose we could just keep on with the hobby as it is and enjoy it for the joy these animals bring......there is a saying “we can’t control how the wind blows but we can adjust our sails.”
I hope to one day have a pair of Albinos.....When I am ready I will pay the going price...Personally I will put the reputation of the breeder and the animals he produces ahead of price....even if I do have to save..but that’s just me.....another of the many who would love opportunity to have an Albino.


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## orientalis (Jul 1, 2010)

What the majority of enthusiasts assume in Australia, is that there are going to be hundreds and thousands produced........this season, last season the season before.....
Most thought and probably still think, that the numbers of RSP, Albino Darwins and Het Darwins (pure varigata) are huge................
Well, i would say that there is probably only around 600 RSP in this country in total in captivity, that have been produced since John's first clutch......that's 600 in total........and look at the price's........LOW as....why is that?
And, with albino and het albino darwins (pure variegata), i don't even know if you could find 50 different people who have bred them including SXR......and what most don't realize, is that the first and second clutches are usually small, especially if they are bred at 2.5 yrs........At best and not including SXR, i don't know if you could name 1 person that has bred them for 4 seasons yet.......and there would probably only be half a dozen people in the whole country that have been lucky enough to breed them for 3 seasons so far.............there wouldn't even be 1000 in total produced as yet....................

So, what the perception seems to be, is that there will be so many produced that the market will be flooded and they will be dirt cheap.............I think, the market in Australia is really quite small and even with only a small number of animals, the animals are advertised cheap and still not selling...... the general majority don't pay and probably cannot afford to pay, the 2000 to 7700 dollars each........
so, look at GTP's........how many were actually produced and sold???? alot less than people assume and there are still breeders with animals still lining their facilities at all price ranges........The problem is, not enough keepers are willing and others unable to purchase.....and those who are able and willing to spend large amounts already have........

Australia has a population issue when it comes to the reptile hobby and with the economic crisis around the globe for the last 3 years..... well, you don't need to be Einstein or have a crystal ball to work out that the price is dropping in many species in Australia, due to individual circumstances and most people cannot and do not want to hold out for their firm asking price. Most thought they would breed and sell and when they don't, other advertisers start dropping prices, genuine buyers wait...... and dreamers make up stories about how cheap their mates paid for them and how cheap they will be because of supply and demand.................Supply is not high......face facts..........demand is high.........and yet, there are still advertisements for albino's and greens at cheap, reasonable and high prices........same goes for rsp..cheap and...not sold out.........WHY is that????????? because Australia does not have enough people to purchase all the reptiles being produced.........The market is saturated with numbers of reptiles, not numbers of albino's, greens or rsp..............and people always want to save money, it is normal.........but there will always be different priced greens, albino's and all species or locale or morph animals.......that is life......prices do come down, other's go up..........
What animal you want and what animal you buy, is completely up to you..........don't worry about knocking people for paying high prices and same for those who are lucky enough to pay bugger all.........good luck to them.......it is shocking to see that the prices have dropped so much so quickly in the last 3 years especially, but all in all even if you went out today and paid 20,000 dollars and bred an adult pair, you would still be able to recoup you dollars in 1 or 2 successfull seasons.......so still an unbelievable hobby when you take the money and costs into consideration.......and to think that those same animals can be found on advertisements for way less, is just astounding......i can only think that people are not buying them because of their actual cash position or they already have some......

I'd like to actually know just how many people have actually seen an Albino Adult in the flesh???
And an RSP????? 
The majority wouldn't have even laid eyes on them to appreciate them.....when you see adult animals, they are extremely impressive, just amazing.......

How many keepers actually own adult albino's 4.5 yrs, 5.5 yrs and 6.5 yrs old???? 
At a guess, probably not even 50 people........pretty small really when you look at it and most think that every man and his wife have them.......

PS.........I spend more than i'll ever get back, as do the majority of genuine enthusiasts keepers and breeders......why does it matter what price they are, if you want them....go find the person you want to buy from and get them.......If you only have x amount of money and cannot afford 1, 2, 3 or 12.....keep saving, work more hours or sell something you own to get the extra dollars....or wait and in time........... you know the rest.....
Rome wasn't built in a day..............


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## Australis (Jul 1, 2010)

The the $$ returned at the end doesn't exceed the expenses.. its not a profit to start with! duh

If you would like to do such a project for your own personal satisfaction (or claimed community
benefit) open your wallet and do it.. don't complain the community isn't propping you up.
That is to date the worst excuse ive heard for keeping Python at over the top prices.

Everyone cool with buying medium frozen rats from me for $50 ea? 
C'mon guys im trying to subsidies my herp trip to PNG.. ill really enjoy the trip
and the whole community will benefit when i post photos of it??


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## waruikazi (Jul 1, 2010)

Like i said i don't see a problem with it either way. Alot of people manage to subsidise the cost of holidays/expeditions by making a doco or writing a book. But if you know ur only going to sell 25 copies of your book, would you ask $1000 each? Of course not, you will work out a reasonable price and go from there.



Waterrat said:


> Gordo, my proposed project is not about breeding / selling reptiles. I am looking into visiting all (well, not really all but as many as possible and all the well known) GTP habitats in PNG, West Papua and the islands with my camera and producing a book about the species' ecology, predators and prey, cultural significance and of course lots and lots of smashing images. Estimated cost - 25K


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## nigmax (Jul 1, 2010)

azn4114 said:


> serious?if so SOLD


 
very serious


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## Waterrat (Jul 1, 2010)

Everyone cool with buying medium frozen rats from me for $50 ea? 
C'mon guys im trying to subsidies my herp trip to PNG.. ill really enjoy the trip
and the whole community will benefit when i post photos of it?? 



Gosh, this is a real gem.


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## benjamind2010 (Jul 1, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> high price= high status and respect=good quality animals



Not entirely true. At all. I've seen some animals that are what I consider to be ridiculously expensive but the quality just isn't there. If you look at the "morph" market in the USA you will see some of the newest and latest morphs, many specimens of which are not what I'd consider all that great. Perfect example are corn snakes, some of the newer morphs tend to have thinner skin/scales and generally weaker genetically than any of the well established morph lines. On top of that I've heard some specimens dying prematurely or not feeding or thriving.

Price does NOT = quality. 

To wit, I'd much, much rather pay $500 for a decent quality RHD woma hatchling than pay $2500 for a new Darwin carpet morph hatchling. Of course, that's just me, but I think a lot of people are thinking that a high price must mean good quality. That isn't true at all and I'm only trying to highlight that fact.


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## Waterrat (Jul 1, 2010)

Gordo, sorry mate but you have no idea about publishing, what's involved and the costs. Please.


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## collywolly (Jul 1, 2010)

demand vs supply. end of thread!!!!!!!!


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## impulse reptiles (Jul 1, 2010)

Most people want what they cant have and when they can have it, they dont want it as much :lol: 

Cheers


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## waruikazi (Jul 1, 2010)

Apology accepted, Lol wut? 

I can analogise the same concept in a different scenario if that makes it easier for you. If you still don't get what i was talking about (which was analogy of the topic you brought up) then maybe you shouldn't have brought it up.



Waterrat said:


> Gordo, sorry mate but you have no idea about publishing, what's involved and the costs. Please.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 1, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Gordo, my proposed project is not about breeding / selling reptiles. I am looking into visiting all (well, not really all but as many as possible and all the well known) GTP habitats in PNG, West Papua and the islands with my camera and producing a book about the species' ecology, predators and prey, cultural significance and of course lots and lots of smashing images. Estimated cost - 25K



Need an assistant, mate?


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## -Matt- (Jul 1, 2010)

Orientalis - by far the the best post in this thread, very well said.

The demand is still reasonably high for these animals but the average person barely has $500 to throw at a snake whenever they want it let alone $2000.


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## kkjkdt1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Cheyne_Jones said:


> Whats the big deal about the price of these things and weather or not everyone should own one?
> 
> In the end they are just a Darwin painted white.... Its not like by owning one of them you are helping to secure some rare endangered animals future... You are not any better than other keepers nor does it give you a 'higher status' than those who dont own them.
> 
> They are a hardy breed that reproduces fairly predictably, so its inevitable that the price diminishes over time as they become well established in the hobby. Deal with it.



Totally agree, well said.
I plan on owning one in the near future, not to breed/status etc just because I like them and have always wanted one, at least i can afford them now.


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## Waterrat (Jul 1, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Need an assistant, mate?


 
Need the money!

Actually, assistant's fee is factored in. PNG is alright, I have a good friend there who can guide me around but Indonesia is a place I wouldn't go to without local knowledge and the lingo.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 1, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Need the money!
> 
> Actually, assistant's fee is factored in. PNG is alright, I have a good friend there who can guide me around but Indonesia is a place I wouldn't go to without local knowledge and the lingo.


 
I'll PM you


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## AUSHERP (Jul 1, 2010)

it seems people are missing the point, this shouldn't be an argument, we were asked for our view on albino price drop, not to kill each other. 
my view is, great for the buyer( nice and cheap), good for the breeder(sell alot of them), but for the market on a whole i personally think that it is nice to see some species keep their high price. and my sum before was not high price = quality
it was high price = respect= quality. dont leave things out to suit your self.


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## waruikazi (Jul 1, 2010)

How do you figure money = respect? If you respect an animal more because it cost you more, you love your money not the animal.



AUSHERP said:


> it seems people are missing the point, this shouldn't be an argument, we were asked for our view on albino price drop, not to kill each other.
> my view is, great for the buyer( nice and cheap), good for the breeder(sell alot of them), but for the market on a whole i personally think that it is nice to see some species keep their high price. and my sum before was not high price = quality
> it was high price = respect= quality. dont leave things out to suit your self.


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## syeph8 (Jul 1, 2010)

AUSHERP said:


> it seems people are missing the point, this shouldn't be an argument, we were asked for our view on albino price drop, not to kill each other.
> my view is, great for the buyer( nice and cheap), good for the breeder(sell alot of them), but for the market on a whole i personally think that it is nice to see some species keep their high price. and my sum before was not high price = quality
> it was high price = respect= quality. dont leave things out to suit your self.


 
so you are saying that if you had a black headed python and an albino olive, that the albino olive would have a better quality of care? then i reiterate, you would then love money more than your animals.


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## itbites (Jul 1, 2010)

Who really cares??

If I had that mentality along with A LOT of other *buyers* 
we'd all be crying out over what we've spent in the past few seasons!!
If you enjoy the animal buy it 
if you don't think they are worth keeping without the high price tag attached don't get them.

I have spent a lot all on hets & now their 500 a pair!
The main reason I purchased them is so I could eventually end up with my very own albino.
Now the prices of albino's have dropped I can get one without waiting to breed.

I don't regret getting the hets they are lovely creatures to keep,
& I have a new found appreciation for carpets now. 

At the end of the day people will still pay that little extra for something special,
but yes the prices have dropped & it's not the end of the world.
If anything the concern is...what will become of the normal Darwin??


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## -Matt- (Jul 1, 2010)

Maybe I'm missing something here but it seems that what your implying is that a higher valued animal deserves a higher level of care and having an expensive snake somehow makes you better or give you a higher 'status' over others that can't afford these snakes? I could be completely misenterpreting what is being said though...


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## Waterrat (Jul 1, 2010)

It's getting pretty complicated and confusing and people start questioning what other people meant.

From my personal point of view, I wouldn't like to see my snakes being bought by inexperienced people just because they are cheap to buy. That would inevitably result in higher mortality and sooner or later some of those unsuccessful owners will scream - "I bought this snake from such & such breeder and it died in the first week". I wouldn't be looking forward to such situation. *
Presumably*, those who are able (and willing to) spend top dollar on a top shelve animal will have enough dosh left to set up a top class facility, take the snake to the vet if necessary and pay electricity bills. What Orientalis said is true - many are feeling the financial squeeze and while the desire and interest in acquiring a reptile or two may be there, the cash is in short supply. Many first time buyers don't think about the on-costs.


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## cement (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes well I did plan on early retirement and just cruising along making billions out of breeding snakes, but with the price drop now it looks like I'll have to keep working and twice as hard to maintain my animals!

Oh well, I'm lucky I have my free snake catching service and voluntary wild reptile care business to prop me up........


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## spotlight (Jul 1, 2010)

thankyou at last some one with a eye for detail !! ,anyone who knows me knows i have a passion for reptile that i will take to the grave money from my animals always goes back into my animals ( i became a tradesman and work hard at work to pay for everything else) im no better then anyone on here!!!


montay said:


> Your comment really resonated with me. Why is it that when you start breeding snakes it is often seen as 'trying to make a quick buck' or 'jumping on the bandwagon'. My ethos is that I want to make my hobby pay for itself, and to reinvest in other projects. None of us are going to retire because of this hobby, and it's more about being diligent and always doing the best thing by the animals.
> cheers


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## mungus (Jul 1, 2010)

Alot of people made a lot of money from breeding top end snakes.
Please remember that the market only crashed a few years ago.
The problem with some breeders is that they dont understand that $500 for a person is a lot of bloody money.......weeks take home pay for most.
If I need to sell my albino's for $500 each this year.....................then so be it !!!!
I was hoping on $1000 for a each Hatchie.
oh well, 10 albino's = $5000 - $10,000 CASH FOR A HOBBY - TAX FREE !! [ 3 years ago the same 10 albino's would be worth $60,000 CASH ]
****, i'm crying all the way to the underside of my matress...........please !!


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## spotlight (Jul 1, 2010)

i think i might need to spend a day in your head so i can see how you got that out of what i was originaly asking???? ,as for the children comment it was my way of putting a point forward saying if all reptiles go for $50 what animals will young herpers dream to afford in the future? (i wanted to grow up get a job and buy a green tree python and it took me years to do it) and that led me on a fantastic path in the herp world and my other dream was to throw away my BMX and buy a classic mustang that took me years and im glad mustangs are not worth $50 but im not looking at making money out of my car.


waruikazi said:


> Not at all. But if you embark on this venture and when the time comes to sell ur off spring and ur not going to make as much money as you thought you would and then you make a thread whinging about it. Then yeah you would seem like a money grabber.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with making some return on your hobby and i don't actually see anything wrong with being a money grabber and wanting to make millions. Just don't blow smoke up our noses by saying ridiculous things like that ur doing for the children lol (I know that wasn't you waterrat lol) or claim that you somehow have a god given right to this fortune.


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## zuesowns (Jul 2, 2010)

kkjkdt1 said:


> Totally agree, well said.
> I plan on owning one in the near future, not to breed/status etc just because I like them and have always wanted one, at least i can afford them now.



I am the same, I want to own one now or in the future, not to breed/status just because i think they are beautiful and I've always wanted one and I could be able to afford them


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## wokka (Jul 2, 2010)

It is a question of priorities. Drinking a carton a week or a couple of packets of smokes equals an albino in a year!


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## Scleropages (Jul 2, 2010)

hahah I like drinking too much to give it up for an albino , lol


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## zulu (Jul 2, 2010)

*re Reply*



orientalis said:


> What the majority of enthusiasts assume in Australia, is that there are going to be hundreds and thousands produced........this season, last season the season before.....
> Most thought and probably still think, that the numbers of RSP, Albino Darwins and Het Darwins (pure varigata) are huge................
> Well, i would say that there is probably only around 600 RSP in this country in total in captivity, that have been produced since John's first clutch......that's 600 in total........and look at the price's........LOW as....why is that?
> And, with albino and het albino darwins (pure variegata), i don't even know if you could find 50 different people who have bred them including SXR......and what most don't realize, is that the first and second clutches are usually small, especially if they are bred at 2.5 yrs........At best and not including SXR, i don't know if you could name 1 person that has bred them for 4 seasons yet.......and there would probably only be half a dozen people in the whole country that have been lucky enough to breed them for 3 seasons so far.............there wouldn't even be 1000 in total produced as yet....................
> ...


 
Impressive post,very well written and it makes sense to me anyway.


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## AM Pythons (Jul 2, 2010)

zulu said:


> Impressive post,very well written and it makes sense to me anyway.



+1


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## AUSHERP (Jul 2, 2010)

good post, puts thing in perspective, you would think there were alot more.


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## aussie-albino (Jul 2, 2010)

Very good post orientalis.

cheers
Scott


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## shaye (Jul 2, 2010)

if they do go that cheap i will be getting one maybe 2


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## AUSHERP (Jul 3, 2010)

haha, i didnt say animals deserve better care if they are worth more, they just get it subconciously. its human nature to look after something more expensive before something cheaper. i know that is gonna be taken wrong. lol. im not saying it should happen. i'm saying it does happen, i know plenty of people that buy nice big display enclosures for gtp, bhp and albinos. while their coastals stay in tubs......


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## jahan (Jul 3, 2010)

Not always the case AUSHERP, I spent 4mths building an enclosure for my diamonds at a cost, far more than what they are worth,I could have bought the albino that i wanted with what i spent,you have to get your priorities(sp) right.


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## AUSHERP (Jul 3, 2010)

LOL. nothing is ALWAYS the case. people can only speak of what they have seen, heard and experienced.


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## Jimmy_jam (Jul 3, 2010)

i wish prices would drop casue i want a pair of these to add to my collection


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## zuesowns (Jul 6, 2010)

do single males go cheaper then single females or are they just the same?


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## AM Pythons (Jul 6, 2010)

from someone that just spend a week to find a suitable albino to buy, i think everyone is hoping the prices will drop because there is 'so many' out there, when infact there are just not the numbers out there yet to see them drop to $1000 & under.. i tried getting the 2 that were going for $1000 each, they went pretty quick..


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## azn4114 (Jul 7, 2010)

tatt2tony said:


> from someone that just spend a week to find a suitable albino to buy, i think everyone is hoping the prices will drop because there is 'so many' out there, when infact there are just not the numbers out there yet to see them drop to $1000 & under.. i tried getting the 2 that were going for $1000 each, they went pretty quick..



oh yes,for a deal like that you have to be very very quick


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## cement (Jul 7, 2010)

Like I said before there is a void out there still to be filled by albino. There is no need to drop prices.
There is the proof that there is demand, they went quick!


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## AUSHERP (Jul 7, 2010)

copy that


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## Boney (Jul 7, 2010)

last season or the one before cant remember ... there where threads like this one . and people where trying to keep the price at $5000 each for hatchies talking it up they where ,acting like they where selling like hot cakes at a fat kid convention .

so anyway you see these threads at the start of this season wow ,wow they say $2000 each 

so to me the void was filled at $5000 , then very quick at $2000 . now $2000 seems to be over priced . i thought they would settle on $1500 6 months on . i know i sold some for $1500..
now that void is just about filled. so yeh at $1000 there is a void there and should be there longer as every time there is a price drop more people will be able to afford it ect .of co**** the first ones that where advertised at $1000 would sell fast but that will slow down . they must of been moving to slow for old mate at $1500-2000 otherwise there wouldn't of been a price drop . ... it dont matter how many are breed even if it was 100 and there is only 80 people in the market for them at a certain price ...well to me the market is full at that price so you got to drop the price for the next level of customers you know the ones that arnt the die hards the ones that may or may not have the cash but are willing to wait for what is going to happen in the end and thats a price drop . never mind it sure is interesting what has happened to the market of late on everything . and looking back on what people have said over the last 2 years is funny reflecting back on....... some stuff turned out... most didn't ..


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## Crazy_Snake08 (Jul 7, 2010)

the more that comes the lower they become


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## Kah. (Aug 13, 2010)

I like your points Ausherp and completly agree. 
Everyone (generalising!) wants to breed no matter what they've got so the market gets flooded with quantity instead of quality.


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## scottyo998 (Aug 13, 2010)

it really surprises me when i see someone with the attitude of "if they dont cost $x then im not going to buy one". If the only reason you want to own one was because it was expensive and is a status symbol, in my opinion you dont deserve to have one, simple as that, because you are doing it for all the wrong reasons.


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## beeman (Aug 13, 2010)

scottyo998 said:


> it really surprises me when i see someone with the attitude of "if they dont cost $x then im not going to buy one". If the only reason you want to own one was because it was expensive and is a status symbol, in my opinion you dont deserve to have one, simple as that, because you are doing it for all the wrong reasons.


 
Think of it another way, What about all the parisites that keep saying these types of critters are to expensive because they cant afford one and try to talk the price down!


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## solar 17 (Aug 13, 2010)

beeman said:


> Think of it another way, What about all the parisites that keep saying these types of critters are to expensive because they cant afford one and try to talk the price down!


*DITTO......solar 17 [Baden]*


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## yommy (Aug 13, 2010)

i'd rather hang onto offspring, then give em away for under their value. They are a truely awesome python to keep. i worked hard to purchase mine and have no regrets as i've always wanted them from the 1st time i saw one on the flesh.
good point you have their beeman. though parasities is strong wording


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## cement (Aug 13, 2010)

This is one reason for the price drop and directly influenced by economy.
a)People can't afford to buy them at the moment.
b)Breeders can't afford to keep them and grow them out.

The point of sale depends on who can't hang on or hold out.

Albino Darwins have a long way before they will be considered common in captivity, even if everyone sells their hatchlings this year, regardless of price.


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## byron_moses (Aug 13, 2010)

i think that asmore available it is reasonable to drop prices that being said there is alot of room for albinos to improve as far as different morphs go for so really the prices will hold if u have the right animal. and remember an animal is worth what someone is willing to pay for it


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## Jay84 (Aug 13, 2010)

Now that other morphs are beng released too, they are not the newest and best things. Once more and newer morphs are bred and 
played around with, then you will see just how quickly an animal can loose its value in a single season!


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## byron_moses (Aug 13, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> Now that other morphs are beng released too, they are not the newest and best things. Once more and newer morphs are bred and
> played around with, then you will see just how quickly an animal can loose its value in a single season!


 yes but if u could breed a patternless albino darwin u could name your price its the quality of the animal not the breed


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 13, 2010)

byron_moses said:


> yes but if u could breed a patternless albino darwin u could name your price its the quality of the animal not the breed


 
i might be working on that in a couple years


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 13, 2010)

This is a paradox this next statement but true. 
"Greedy" sellers are selling their animals at a lower price to make money! 
The animal in question is sold by some for a "lower" price to make sure they sell ALL their stock so they can make a buck, which inadvertently lowers the true market price of the animal because the precedence is set now! 
This in turn ruins it for the "true" breeders who have put so much into the hobby and this new cheaper price is not necessarily a true indication on what the animal is really worth in the market place.....
As Beeman has also said, new buyers see the above seller advertising his lowered price and IMO because they have just bred their 1st clutch (after originally buying from someone who sells their animals at the lower price) and want to sell them all, so the newbie expects that this is what everyone should sell the animal for..
This is bad guys and this price drop is solely contributed to greedy sellers..another paradox, just like the price of housing goes up, because foreign investment drives it up and makes it harder for the average Aussie to purchase anymore...get it???

In Business us tradies talk amongst ourselves about the "going" rate BEFORE we tender for major construction jobs, WHY, so at the end of the day the industry doesn't suffer because a few "cowboys" sell stuff cheaper....


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## Jay84 (Aug 13, 2010)

byron_moses said:


> yes but if u could breed a patternless albino darwin u could name your price its the quality of the animal not the breed


 
But, who will pay top dollar for a ''normal albino'' when in a couple of seasons time there will be a newer more sought
after morph. Then a couple of seasosn after that newer morph was produced, there is a newer one that knocks that off 
the top shelf. 

***Please note i am NOT trying to push prices down***

It's just that now the Jags are hitting the scene, there is so much potential for new morphs to be produced. These will
seek higher prices until the next.... etc .... etc....


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 13, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> But, who will pay top dollar for a ''normal albino'' when in a couple of seasons time there will be a newer more sought
> after morph. Then a couple of seasosn after that newer morph was produced, there is a newer one that knocks that off
> the top shelf.
> 
> ...


 100% true Jay.....BUT IF, breeders really DID stick together, this would not happen...
This whole scenario is because, the herp community is a "cash" driven society/pseudo hobby & a tax free income for some..but that's another topic..which I don't necessarily disagree with.....lol
As long as everyone is looking after their animals and remembering the habitat that these animals come from, which is exploited and disappearing like the GTP's and many other specie, maybe we all should pay a "small" contribution to a dedicated Authority to protect the said habitat. I for one would do it, but unfortunately we don't have that trust in our Government that the contributions will be used as we would hope them to be. IF breeders/sellers had to pay a small fee, they would then take this into consideration and the price would not drop as much and screw it for the dedicated and ones that HAVE put in the years to develop what we ALL admire and want....
JMO


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## byron_moses (Aug 13, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> But, who will pay top dollar for a ''normal albino'' when in a couple of seasons time there will be a newer more sought
> after morph. Then a couple of seasosn after that newer morph was produced, there is a newer one that knocks that off
> the top shelf.
> 
> ...


mate i can remember whe an rp jungle was 2k it just moves forward the bottom of the range coastal is $100 and there r superstripes etc this was always going to happen no matter what happens we just have to move forward with them


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 13, 2010)

not trying to push prices up or down but this is my view.
last november i bred 15 albinos and all with dorsal stripes as well and high quality animals andthe father has now won 4 Trophies at 4 expos. i kept 3 hatchies for myself and over the next 3 months i sold 6 for $2500 which i though was well priced at that stage considering banded albinos wer going for $2000 -$2500 at that stage.
things went quiet for a couple months dropped the price to $2000 and didn't get a bite apart from a few tyre kickers.
dropped the price to $1500(apart from an outstanding male) and 2 picky feeders for $1200 each and last night i got 24 pm's and 9 email enquires and almost all were for the 2 $1200 picky feeders.personally i'd spend the extra $300 and get one smashing rats.
going by that,i think the true market price for them at the moment would be around the $1200- $1500 and i think that all the people that could afford the high quality animals have bought them and now they are coming down to an affordable price for the average joe blow.i also think that it will hover around the $1000 for the next few years as alot of snake enthusiests will find that affordable.i personally believe at selling at the market price and i have found out if it is above $1500 ,it is very hard to move unless you have something special.
cheers
simon


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## Jay84 (Aug 13, 2010)

Well said Slimebo....... i was looking at your snakes for sale last night!


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 13, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> Well said Slimebo....... i was looking at your snakes for sale last night!


 
it was a bit busy last night. after all that i still have 3 albinos left.


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## yommy (Aug 13, 2010)

i think between the $1000-1500 depending on the quality is a fair price, but like you said slimebo i'd pay te extra for a problem free animal anyday.
you cover your original purchase cost after the 1st clutch then everything from then on in is a bonus..........


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## scottyo998 (Aug 13, 2010)

beeman said:


> Think of it another way, What about all the parisites that keep saying these types of critters are to expensive because they cant afford one and try to talk the price down!


 
i can see it from that point of view too, but it was naive of anyone to think that the prices would stay up, its just the way every single market works, no matter what the object is. All it would take was even to look at other species on the snake market (eg GTP's, Blackheaded's, Woma's, even the Ball pythons in the U.S) to see that no matter what the price starts off at when they first come onto the market, eventually that price dwindles away to the point when any bloke on the street can afford one. Thats why people always try to be the first to create a new morph, so they can make as much money as they can from it while its price is high. There is no point fighting or getting frustrated over this fact, it has just got to be accepted as a reality. The only frustrating part is if when they become cheap enough for the general population to afford them, people dont buy them any more simply because anyone can have one. Or when breeders get frustrated when a snake they paid 5-10k a few years ago for and then bred, only fetches 1-2k now, it is just such a predictable trend, that to not see it coming is foolish.

Not trying to insult, just sharing an opinion haha


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## zuesowns (Aug 14, 2010)

supply and demand, really isn't it.


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## waruikazi (Aug 14, 2010)

Good to finally hear someone with a head on their shoulders talking honestly from experience!

This whole thread is a good example of one reason why i got out of pythons. It's not about the animal anymore it's about the newest morph/hybrid/illegaly smuggled and all it comes down to is money. Even i have had people call me up threatening to break my legs because of how much i was asking for particular animals. And if ur not breeding somehow you can't be an accomplished keeper.

There really is no love in pythons anymore.



slimebo said:


> not trying to push prices up or down but this is my view.
> last november i bred 15 albinos and all with dorsal stripes as well and high quality animals andthe father has now won 4 Trophies at 4 expos. i kept 3 hatchies for myself and over the next 3 months i sold 6 for $2500 which i though was well priced at that stage considering banded albinos wer going for $2000 -$2500 at that stage.
> things went quiet for a couple months dropped the price to $2000 and didn't get a bite apart from a few tyre kickers.
> dropped the price to $1500(apart from an outstanding male) and 2 picky feeders for $1200 each and last night i got 24 pm's and 9 email enquires and almost all were for the 2 $1200 picky feeders.personally i'd spend the extra $300 and get one smashing rats.
> ...


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## Waterrat (Aug 14, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> remembering the habitat that these animals come from, which is exploited and disappearing like the GTP's



Really? Since when? Our GTPs and their habitat is the most secure, even more secure than that of RSPs.

Gorgo, I still love pythons. Am I the only one? lol


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## python_dan89 (Aug 14, 2010)

LoL i love pythons =) but the hobby is going down a bad road. might come back around who nos.


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## jahan (Aug 14, 2010)

No Waterrat, I still love pythons aswell, always have and always will.


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## waruikazi (Aug 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Gorgo, I still love pythons. Am I the only one? lol


 
You very well could be the only one! lol

But honestly, how many people will buy a 'morph,' 'locality' or 'anything' just cause they want one? Nearly everyone who gets them intends to breed them and i will wager that money is one of the biggest influencing factors in the decision a keeper makes when they decide they are going to breed.

That said i'm not against making money off your hobby if you can.


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## Waterrat (Aug 14, 2010)

Gordo, I agree with you. For some reason, most reptile keepers (at all levels) think that breeding is a measure of success.


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## shaye (Aug 14, 2010)

well i agree with waruikazi 
im gonna say it yes 
i love my snakes 
and yes i want to make money out of it 
just to fund other projects like getting albinos and gtps later on down the track 
and of course to feed them 
any extra money is a bonus to me 
but im in it for the love of animals and to make the extra $$$ to feed/house/ get new ones 


thanx shaye


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## pythonmum (Aug 14, 2010)

It's nice if you can make money from breeding, but there's no certainty with animals. You shouldn't give up a regular job!
Those in it for the money are always going to be chasing the next morph. I love albino Darwins because they are beautiful, easy to keep and have great personalities.
THAT is why I'm breeding and selling at a discount to personal acquaintances - if the eggs hatch. I'm not counting on anything, but it's fun to see my girl get fat!
If hatchlings were only $100 each, I'd still breed her occasionally just to let others experience the joy of owning a lovely animal.


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## Jay84 (Aug 14, 2010)

I love my old Diamond Python.... even though he tries to eat me every time i open his cage door lol

It's the same as everything though, there will always be peole in it for the money, yet there will always be others in it for 
the love of the animals.


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 14, 2010)

i still keep them for the love of them and all mine are pets. all get handled quite often as well.i have one of nearly every species of python purely for the love of them and just a couple breeding projects.i do get dissapointed with people who sell off there breeders because "they aren't breeding them any more".they are pets and pets should be for life. i am actually looking forward to the day when when they are all so cheap that they wont be looked at as money making machines.


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## shaye (Aug 14, 2010)

agree with slimebo 
+1


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## smeejason (Aug 14, 2010)

I personally cannot think you can to much for piece of mind. I would rather pay a few hundred more and get an albino from someone i have dealt with before or someone they deal with.my whole collection has only come from 2 or 3 people and i know what goes on in their collection which gives me piece of mind in mine. I cannot fathem saving a hundred bucks and buying off someone i have never heard of because their albinos are $800. i do not mind a gamble but i have spent to much on the rest to put their lives at risk . also i would have my nuts handed to me on a plate by my wife if i lost a couple $1000 dollars worth of snakes being a tight @rse. i hope to get one in the coming season and i am counting on paying around what slimebo said or a bit more..


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Really? Since when? Our GTPs and their habitat is the most secure, even more secure than that of RSPs.
> 
> Gorgo, I still love pythons. Am I the only one? lol



No not the only one M..lol

My Bad, I was generalizing.... rainforest destruction, deforestation due to need to build more houses, factories etc.....maybe not GTP's as you have pointed out but there are others suffering...correct?


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 14, 2010)

just out of Curiosity Scott ,how much would we have to sell our albino darwins
to not be seen as greedy and not in it for the money? ridiculasly high prices?
does that make one more of a True Big time breeder? and not greedy? :lol:


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## Laghairt (Aug 14, 2010)

LOL. I find the notion that people come on here trying to talk the price down absurd. If I go around trying to talk the price of cars or any other consumer good down how much success do you think I'll have? We could talk all we want but at the end of the day nobody on their own can have a huge effect on the market as there are too many players.

I understand that there are people out there who spent thousands building their collections and have seen the value of all their work slashed in the last few years. I suspect there are many people out there who are having trouble coming to terms with that. When they they see people who are speaking the truth that they don't want to accept it really gets under their skin. Prices will continue to fall as the market (and the hobby) matures, its inveitable.


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## Waterrat (Aug 14, 2010)

.... what follows maturity? Old age and death. :shock:


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## Laghairt (Aug 14, 2010)

Stability. I mean if the market was mature we wouldn't have seen the dramaitic variation in price we've seen the last few years. Don't get me wrong, I feel for people who have lost out, I really do, but from my perspective the price drop is a good thing. Obviously not everyone will agree with this depending on their circumstances and there will be a million and one different, but legitimate, points of view.


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## Laghairt (Aug 14, 2010)

Couldn't agree more.



waruikazi said:


> Prices coming down is not evidence for mass euthenasing of entire clutches. What i think we are more likely to see is animals given away free and when these suppliers realize that they are working at a significant loss they will cease supplying.
> 
> I think you have your thinking twisted up. Prices coming down opens the market up, it doesn't close it down. Reptiles being available at less than $50 makes them affordable for many more people than when they were a few hundred bucks each.


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 14, 2010)

fusion said:


> just out of Curiosity Scott ,how much would we have to sell our albino darwins
> to not be seen as greedy and not in it for the money? ridiculasly high prices?
> does that make one more of a True Big time breeder? and not greedy? :lol:


 LOl, I feel that my somewhat analytical post on what I was thinking at the time after my ritualistic Friday arvo Pub session, could have been taken out of context..LOL My apologies if i offended anyone...
I guess I was trying to say that some new breeders buy hets or cheaper animals only to sell them off at cheaper than market prices, as they want to get rid of them quick. I do know this happens as I have seen it and have purchased some, which may mean I'm a hypocrite...flame away...but at least i'm honest. lol
As far as Albinos carpets are concerned IMO they should be around $2K, i purchased hets 3 years ago that were more expensive than Albinos now....go figure....
My reference to greedy, was purely based on people getting into the hobby to make money...not for the love of snakes...does that clarify my post a bit better...it has for me. lol 
people exploit a hobby or Business, when they see a potential to make money, which does ruin the hard work put in by others, but thats life.
I also feel that IF snakes are purchased for a small amount of money, when newbies or others get sick of them they either let them go which depending on where you live, may die, or just kill them anyway. For anything $50 that's disposable in my view. The old adage, if its expensive you tend to look after it more!
Just my opinion guys....


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 14, 2010)

fusion said:


> just out of Curiosity Scott ,how much would we have to sell our albino darwins
> to not be seen as greedy and not in it for the money? ridiculasly high prices?
> does that make one more of a True Big time breeder? and not greedy? :lol:


 Not sure what you mean in that post as the last part doesn't make sense, like mine before to some..lol
Question, IF someone was to come in tomorrow and sell RPM's for $1000, how would others that are now selling them now for $3.5K upwards feel????
What about if someone was to sell Albinos tomorrow for $400 will you match that? After already budgeting and factoring in how much you will make at the market rate to pay for ALL your bills, ie electricity, feed, housing ets etc....but now you cant cover the cost because someone has set a precedence. 
Not directed at you Fusion this bit, but i missed being able to respond...thanks Jay!  
I guess you cant be too technical on this site as it means you have to think out of the square and of the big picture and not the minute...hey nigmax.....:lol::lol:
Super Tradie, yeah mate I was called that once...by my wife though, as I have done some stuff for the industry...but at least i'm successful in my Multi-trade company and I only made a comment, obviously too much to comprehend for some....LMAO Sometimes the truth hurts....


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## Colin (Aug 14, 2010)

I think everything has been said and covered in this thread as it has many times before in these same type of threads.. I feel its been starting to get a bit nasty and personal so I'm closing it. cheers


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