# Warning against heat rocks GRAPHIC



## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

Yet another keeper that fell under the false impression that heat rocks are safe as they have an inbuilt thermostat, the result, a diamond clinging to life:


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## tankslapt (Dec 10, 2012)




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## Shotta (Dec 10, 2012)

aww damn poor thing 
heres hopin it has a speedy recovery


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

Personally I think no where near enough keepers no how dangerous they are, maybe this could be a sticky?


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## rack_one (Dec 10, 2012)

So sad poor fella


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## JrFear (Dec 10, 2012)

id never recommend heat rocks dont understand why they even make them!

Nilesh i dont like that stack of $50 dolla bills please remove it its making me money hungry!


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## Bananapeel (Dec 10, 2012)

The amount of times it's mentioned, you'd think more people would have an idea of the risks.
Hoping for a full quick recovery.
Poor thing :cry:


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## thomasssss (Dec 10, 2012)

GeckoJosh said:


> Personally I think no where near enough keepers no how dangerous they are, maybe this could be a sticky?


not disagreeing with you hear but what exactly makes them so dangerous compared to say a heat matt or heat cord 

heres to hoping the diamond pulls through ok


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## wylie88 (Dec 10, 2012)

Poor thing, What a horrible learning curve for the keeper. I never have and never will use a heat rock, I'm not sure if the issue is that not enough keepers know about the dangers of heat rocks or that not enough new keepers properly researched different heating methods before settling on a heat rock. In saying that no heat source is 100% safe without an extra external thermostat or at least thermometer.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> not disagreeing with you hear but what exactly makes them so dangerous compared to say a heat matt or heat cord
> 
> heres to hoping the diamond pulls through ok



They seem to malfunction really easily compared to other heat sources, also the "inbuilt thermostat" gives inexperienced keepers a false sense of security (that is my understanding of the dangers anyway).


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## Shotta (Dec 10, 2012)

JrFear said:


> Nilesh i dont like that stack of $50 dolla bills please remove it its making me money hungry!




some heatrocks dont have that thermal cut off ma-jig 
ha ha lol you can't eat money!


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> The amount of times it's mentioned, you'd think more people would have an idea of the risks.
> Hoping for a full quick recovery.
> Poor thing :cry:



Not everyone comes onto forums, many new keepers rely on some of the dodgy pet shops for advice who then sell them heat rocks.


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## Justdragons (Dec 10, 2012)

The problem is that "pet shops" recomend them to new keepers... i was with my beardies at first.... then i went to a southern reptile shop and they sorted me out with decent advice... 

I hope your diamond pulls through, that looks like a deep burn


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## cools2036 (Dec 10, 2012)

Poor thing, don't recommend hear rocks, especially for diamonds.
Hard to rely on electrical equipment these days. Always need to ensure some fail safe system is in place. It is wise if you plan on setting up a good reptile system that you have someone install an over current device, this will trip and sever power supply before it gets to this stage. Allowing you to find faults before damage is done.
Hope this guys recovers ...
Cools


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

justdragons said:


> The problem is that "pet shops" recomend them to new keepers... i was with my beardies at first.... then i went to a southern reptile shop and they sorted me out with decent advice...
> 
> I hope your diamond pulls through, that looks like a deep burn




Thanks JD

Oh and btw guys, this is not my Diamond,I just helped them with it.


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## Leasdraco (Dec 10, 2012)

I wish pet shops didnt stock unsafe reptile products  poor thing


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

Leasdraco said:


> I wish pet shops didnt stock unsafe reptile products  poor thing



And now they want to start selling live reptiles


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## crocodile_dan (Dec 10, 2012)

I bought one years ago, plugged it in and checked how warm it was as it heated up as there was no written information about temperatures given. I found out very quickly that the thinner sections of the rock get ridiculously hot! I couldn't keep my hand on it! once the entire rock heated up the 'thermo' kicks in and the rock has a more evenly distributed heat.

I couldn't bare asking anyone to give me any amount of money for it so I gave it away to someone who has used them for a while and knows about the issues.

I now use heat cord and globes, and haven't looked back


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## Wally (Dec 10, 2012)

Heat rocks and those green bags of death that were passed off as heat mats should be avoided like the plague.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 10, 2012)

I hate heat rocks, I got one once with a bunch of stuff I bought. I cut the cord off and used it as a basking rock, they work really well and heat up nicely under the basking light. That is the only thing they are good for. I never recommend heat mats either. It is amazing how many people seem to think beardies and blue tongues need them.


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## Monitors_R_Us (Dec 10, 2012)

The problem is heat rocks are most often the thing recommended by pet-shop sales staff because they have absolutely no idea the dangers of them and are usually the stock that they have been told to market more as they do not get sold nearly as much as heat mats and globes.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

So Mods, can this become a sticky?


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 10, 2012)

Leasdraco said:


> I wish pet shops didnt stock unsafe reptile products  poor thing


Do we know what brand it is and if it came from a pet shop? My guess would be a $10 ebay one!


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## Stuart (Dec 10, 2012)

GeckoJosh said:


> So Mods, can this become a sticky?



Best to put this sort of request in via the support center. I will however also take it to the other Mods and the Admins for their thoughts.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 10, 2012)

SniperCap said:


> Best to put this sort of request in via the support center. I will however also take it to the other Mods and the Admins for their thoughts.



Thanks

- - - Updated - - -



Amazing Amazon said:


> Do we know what brand it is and if it came from a pet shop? My guess would be a $10 ebay one!



No this was bought from a pet shop, I am not going to name them here though.
I am unsure of the brand, I will try and find out.


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## Chris1 (Dec 10, 2012)

ooh, thats nasty,...great idea making it a sticky so its easy to find when i see people recommending heat rocks cos theirs has never malfunctioned,....


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## Egernia (Dec 10, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> not disagreeing with you hear but what exactly makes them so dangerous compared to say a heat matt or heat cord



The answer is the inconsistency of the heating element laid within the rock itself. If the element is laid unevenly with more concentration in a certain area or in an area where the thickness of the rock surface is thin then you can get hot spots which are the problem. Whether you buy the most expensive brand name one you can afford or the cheapest one you can find you can never be sure that the element inside has been laid evenly which is why most reptile specialists don't sell them - and those that do would give appropriate warnings I would hope. The thermostatic controls on these sorts of items can be misleading as they are not accurate and will only kick in when the current is adequate which leaves a lag and a temp variation. Heat mats and heat cords by their very nature have an even heat distribution which is why you don't see the sorts of problems with them that you see with heat rocks. The problems you see with heat mats are almost always the result of misuse with the main problem being lack of appropriate ventilation which in effect cooks the product rather than the product failing.


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## princessparrot (Dec 10, 2012)

poor thing.



sadly my only option is heat rocks cause my dad doesnt like the price of thermostats.

is there any way i can use them to heat it without putting it in and putting them at risk??


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## Tobe404 (Dec 10, 2012)

Damn that is nasty... Poor Diamond 



Wally76 said:


> Heat rocks and those green bags of death that were passed off as heat mats should be avoided like the plague.



By 'green bags of death' do you mean the URS style heat mats or something else? Cause' I have one of those and I've never had a problem with it. It's even been through 3 or so power outages and still works as it should.

Same goes for an ebay heat mat and an Exo Terra one, no problems at all.
Although they are all hooked up to a thermostat which would help a lot in keeping them functioning correctly, I'd imagine.



princessparrot said:


> poor thing.
> 
> sadly my only option is heat rocks cause my dad doesnt like the price of thermostats.
> 
> is there any way i can use them to heat it without putting it in and putting them at risk??



You can get a thermostat ($20) and heat mat or cord ($15) for around $35 if you look hard enough. And I'd say that twenty dollars is a good investment if it saves you from accidently burning your beloved pet (or burning the house down).

Failing that, you could get a heat cord and a thermometer for around $20-25 and just tighten or loosen the heat cord until you achive the desired temperatures.


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## Wally (Dec 10, 2012)

Tobe404 said:


> By 'green bags of death' do you mean the URS style heat mats or something else? Cause' I have one of those and I've never had a problem with it. It's even been through 3 or so power outages and still works as it should.
> 
> Same goes for an ebay heat mat and an Exo Terra one, no problems at all.
> Although they are all hooked up to a thermostat which would help a lot in keeping them functioning correctly, I'd imagine.



Well if you're happy with it, no amount of advise from me will change your mind.

Perhaps do a little bit of research on them.


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## Anunnaki (Dec 10, 2012)

Heat rocks cause problems because when the inbuilt thermostats fail they just keep heating and heating, there are ones now which when fail turn off


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## Beautyreptiles (Dec 10, 2012)

I have had a few reptile keeper friends who have had the exact same thing happen. I do know that a majority of the brands were Reptile One, but either way i would never buy one no matter what the brand.


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 10, 2012)

Although we do not sell heat rocks we do have them available for sale (if that makes sense!). We only sell the Exo Terra ones. Having sold probably more than 100 over 10 years I have never heard of one over heating! We have had some back that have stopped working but for no other reason. Agree with the majority though that a GOOD quality heat pad or heat cord with a thermostat is a much better option.


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## Venomous_RBB (Dec 10, 2012)

I really hope that the Diamond is okay, poor thing.
I do agree with people, it is a shame that pet shops actually sell this however I got recommended one by a reputable reptile vet in my area, pretty weird, huh?


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## serpenttongue (Dec 10, 2012)

I have never liked hot rocks, and stopped using them about 14 years ago. The main problem is that a snakes ventral surface isn't very sensitive to hot surfaces, so they will sit on something that is slowly burning them and not know it. 

Hot rocks will also quickly dry out the shedding oils if a snake coils on it for long periods. This causes the new skin to be pulled off with the old, thus causing nasty damaged to the ventral scales, leading to severe scarring.

As nasty as the photo looks, it will heal okay with successive sheds. All the scabs will come away with the next shed, leaving raw flesh exposed. But this will dry, and get better with the following shed. In time it will look much better, but scars will remain.


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## jacks-pythons (Dec 10, 2012)

thats no good. hope it recovers.


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## ironized (Dec 10, 2012)

serpenttongue said:


> I have never liked hot rocks, and stopped using them about 14 years ago. The main problem is that a snakes ventral surface isn't very sensitive to hot surfaces, so they will sit on something that is slowly burning them and not know it.
> 
> Hot rocks will also quickly dry out the shedding oils if a snake coils on it for long periods. This causes the new skin to be pulled off with the old, thus causing nasty damaged to the ventral scales, leading to severe scarring.
> 
> As nasty as the photo looks, it will heal okay with successive sheds. All the scabs will come away with the next shed, leaving raw flesh exposed. But this will dry, and get better with the following shed. In time it will look much better, but scars will remain.



Interesting.

I personally don't use hotrocks inb my tanks, how ever I have a click clack that I throw my snakes in overnight sometimes if say, their globe blows or I feel that I will have too many visitors and the snake will stress out. This click clack uses a ReptileOne heat rock. 

On the shedding oils comment, I had both my little jungles shed at the same time for their first shed, at this stage I had one enclosure set up and was setting up the second, so unfortunately one of the snakes had to spend its shed in the click clack with the hotrock, while the other got the full enclosure.

Interestingly the one in the full enclosure had a patchy shed and I was forced to aid it by hand, however the click clack snake had a perfect shed.

Eitherway, I'll be looking to set up a hotrock-free temporary enclosure in the near future.


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## Tobe404 (Dec 10, 2012)

Wally76 said:


> Well if you're happy with it, no amount of advise from me will change your mind.
> 
> Perhaps do a little bit of research on them.



Actually I just checked the urs heat mat and it has slightly burnt through the foam bottom of a urs enclosure. Despite being hooked up to a thermostat. And only being around 3 months old. Bummer. No problems with the other heat mats though.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 11, 2012)

Amazing Amazon said:


> Although we do not sell heat rocks we do have them available for sale (if that makes sense!). We only sell the Exo Terra ones. Having sold probably more than 100 over 10 years I have never heard of one over heating! We have had some back that have stopped working but for no other reason. Agree with the majority though that a GOOD quality heat pad or heat cord with a thermostat is a much better option.



I am sorry for saying pet shops in general give bad advice about equipment such as these, your establishment in my experience has always given out first rate advice, I have edited my comment.


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 11, 2012)

No offence taken. I was more interested in the brand as all the heat pads and rocks I have heard of and seen catching on fire have been the cheapo Ebay ones.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 11, 2012)

Amazing Amazon said:


> No offence taken. I was more interested in the brand as all the heat pads and rocks I have heard of and seen catching on fire have been the cheapo Ebay ones.



Ok cool, I am going to ring the owners today to see how the Diamond is going, I will ask them the brand then


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## Egernia (Dec 11, 2012)

Anunnaki said:


> Heat rocks cause problems because when the inbuilt thermostats fail they just keep heating and heating, there are ones now which when fail turn off



Heat rocks that are functioning correctly can still be problematic due to hot spots and inconsistencies in the heat given off. As mentioned above a cool reptile does not have the sensory responses of a warm reptile so they can be laying on a 'warm' hot rock not realising that a part of their body is actually burning on one of the hot spots. I dont believe that this is a huge problem and suspect that many people have trouble free experiences with heat rocks but as the problem does exist and there is no way to know whether or not the heat rock you buy is a problem one it is probably not worth the risk. As a retailer I would not like to be on the receiving end of a complaint such as what the OP has experienced!

The problem with the green PVC heat mats that also got a mention in this thread is that the electrical connection that joins the heat mat is not being well protected and it is not difficult to short those mats if you are not careful. Anyone who has had that problem can see this by cutting the mat open in that area and you will see the burned areas at that connection site. The black mats have better protection over that connection which makes them more resilient to incorrect handling.



Amazing Amazon said:


> I was more interested in the brand as all the heat pads and rocks I have heard of and seen catching on fire have been the cheapo Ebay ones.



Let's not continue this myth as it is certainly no longer true if it ever was true. Every brand name company on the shelves here in Australia buys their heating products direct from China from the same manufacturers that the cheapies on ebay come from. Microclimate may be the only exception that I can think of but I have been offered microclimate heat mats from a supplier in China so I suspect that at least their heat mats are made in China. I have no knowledge of where their thermostats are made. So the item you are selling in the brand name package is exactly the same as the product being sold on ebay. A quick check back through threads here at APS alone will show plenty of problems with 'brand name' products getting a mention and certainly no more than non-brand name products. In this thread alone there has been no mention of ebay cheapie heat rocks or mats but a couple of the brand names have been mentioned in relation to these products which just goes to show that problems are not restricted to the ebay cheapies.

Retail shops by their very nature are not going to be able to compete on price but this should not be a reason to suggest that products sold at a cheaper price are no good. Retail shops have a lot of advantages for customers that online sellers cannot offer and I really think that is where you should be concentrating your efforts. You guys are available for the convenience buy and most people are willing to pay a bit more for that convenience. You are able to meet your customers face to face and impart the knowledge that you have on the products you sell and to reassure buyers that they are purchasing the correct product for the correct job. You are also in a better position to handle problems when they do occur as you can help out customers face to face. Finally retail shops have access to all of the brand name companies and all of the products that they offer in their respective ranges so you can provide to your customers pretty much any product they may desire. All of this comes at a price to you which is why you are justified in charging a higher price for your products and I think most customers understand this without the need for an 'us' and 'them' combat with online sellers.


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## Reptiles4me (Dec 11, 2012)

I would never use heat rocks or recommend them they make me so angry when I see this sort of thing happen.:evil:
i honestly don't know why people buy them. They cause more problems then a curious monitor on a camp site. I hope they stop getting sold.

I hope the snake makes a full recovery. I'm not sure if he will be scarless after burns like that.What a sad story.


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## Chris1 (Jan 9, 2013)

That looks awful,...hows the healing going? is it still alive?


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 9, 2013)

Is it still alive and looking much better, I do not know the people that well so getting pics isnt all that easy, I will try and get some though.

I found out the brand but I fear posting it may bring on a law suit or similar, it is a very well known brand that is stocked in every major pet store, it was not Exoterra.


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## NicG (Jan 9, 2013)

Having never used a heat rock, I'm curious about one thing ...

- Did the heat rock in question malfuction? Or was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in the Diamond Python?


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 9, 2013)

NicG said:


> Having never used a heat rock, I'm curious about one thing ...
> 
> - Did the heat rock in question malfuction? Or was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in the Diamond Python?



Both, the rock should never get hot enough to cause burns and snake lacks the ability to sense dangerous temperatures


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## NTNed (Jan 10, 2013)

Poor Diamond, one of our most beautiful snakes IMO.

Glad I live in a climate where heat lights will do for the cold couple of months each year, you know when it drops to a chilly 14 or 15...lol.

Think mine suffer from wind burn from the fans this tiime of year.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 11, 2013)

There are two separate issues with heat rocks. Firstly, the poorly manufactured ones can develop hot spots. This can be due to uneven distribution of heating element and thickness of covering material, as mentioned. It can also develop due to a change in the thermal properties of the material over time, as a result of poor quality manufacture (cheap materials). These problems rarely if ever occur with good quality brand items.

The second issue is that the inbuilt thermostat can fail. When this happen the current continues to flow and the rock continues to heat up. Even the quality thermostats can sometimes fail, though rarely. This why it possible to use a quality item for many, many years and never have an issue and someone else with the same brand item isn't so lucky. Two of the leading companies were attempting to design a heat rock that goes cold when it fails. In the last 18 months I have heard nothing on any progress being made. One safeguard, as suggested is to have an additional thermostat controlling the external power to the appliances. 

Reptiles will survive cooler conditions for some considerable length of time, without lasting ill effects. However, in conditions of excessive heat, they succumb fairly quickly. As GeckoJosh pointed out, they do not have the same sort of heat sensor in their skin as what we have. The heat has to penetrate to their core receptors at a level that says they are warm enough and can now move off. So with objects that reach really high surface temperatures, like light bulbs and ceramic heat emitters, they can easily develop serious contact burns before they realise it.

One bit of advice. Use the lowest possible wattages to adequately heat an enclosure. That way, if a thermostat fails, you won’t come home to a disaster.

Blue


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## Bananapeel (Jan 11, 2013)

I think another problem is that keepers who don't go on these forums or don't see the consequences of these heat rocks fail to understand what problems they can cause. Then they go into a pet shop, see your options of heating and because the rock looks natural they may buy it. Globes coming from the roof don't look natural, nor do tiles sitting on heat cords. So the novice gets a heat rock because they kill 2 birds with one stone. A piece of enclosure decoration and the heating sorted while looking nice. However to people who haven't seen these accidents or read about real experiences they are unaware that the rock can kill 3 birds with one stone. The piece of decor, a pleasing to the eye form of heating and possibly the snake.


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## jahan (Jan 11, 2013)

If a snake lacks the ability to sense dangerous temperatures, then how do
they regulate temp during incubation?
Could it be that the snake fell asleep and didn`t sense the rock getting too hot or was it like NicG said "_was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in the_Diamond Python_?"
What are their heat pits for._


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 11, 2013)

jahan said:


> If a snake lacks the ability to sense dangerous temperatures, then how do
> they regulate temp during incubation?
> Could it be that the snake fell asleep and didn`t sense the rock getting too hot or was it like NicG said "_was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in the_Diamond Python_?"
> What are their heat pits for._



The heat pits are there to help them hunt warm blooded animals.


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## Wild~Touch (Jan 11, 2013)

jahan said:


> If a snake lacks the ability to sense dangerous temperatures, then how do
> they regulate temp during incubation?
> Could it be that the snake fell asleep and didn`t sense the rock getting too hot or was it like NicG said "_was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in the_Diamond Python_?"
> What are their heat pits for._



Someone once explained the "burnt snake" thing to me....it's a bit like us getting badly sunburnt ... you don't feel the sun burning at the time...you just suffer the after effects.

A reasonable explanation, hey


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## paultheo (Jan 11, 2013)

I have a inland python that has scarring from extreme heat, she apparently wrapped around a light without a cage, light went on with the thermostat and got severely burned. I swapped her for a beardie hatchling without hesitation (once i set up the enclosure and instructed the guy on the correct husbandry techniques) she seems perfectly happy,sheds, eats, climbs and breeds just like normal. I named her burnece.


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## Cypher69 (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't use heat rocks myself anymore...but I'm wondering just on theory...

In relation to using a thermostat with a heat rock... where would you place/attach the thermo's probe to a heat rock?
In the past I taped the probe to underneath the rock but found the heat emitted from the rock's top surface rendering the probe useless to detect the temp cut-off.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 11, 2013)

I think you have answered your own question. To be effective it needs to be on the surface that the reptile comes in contact with... basically somewhere on the top surface of the rock.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 11, 2013)

Cypher69 said:


> I don't use heat rocks myself anymore...but I'm wondering just on theory...
> 
> In relation to using a thermostat with a heat rock... where would you place/attach the thermo's probe to a heat rock?
> In the past I taped the probe to underneath the rock but found the heat emitted from the rock's top surface rendering the probe useless to detect the temp cut-off.



What BLue said is correct but I thought I would add one thing, never use tape in snake enclosures, if it gets stuck to the scales of a snake it can cause horrific damage or even death,use a rubber band or zip tie.


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## Jackrabbit (Jan 12, 2013)

Can't reptiles feel that whatever they are on is a little hot and move off before they get too burnt? I know we put cages around heat lamps but still don't understand why they can't feel when something gets too hot. It seems like they know when they want to warm up but don't know when they are too warm.


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## PythonLegs (Jan 12, 2013)

Jackrabbit said:


> Can't reptiles feel that whatever they are on is a little hot and move off before they get too burnt? I know we put cages around heat lamps but still don't understand why they can't feel when something gets too hot. It seems like they know when they want to warm up but don't know when they are too warm.



Ever cooked a a roast, only to find the middle is still raw? The raw bit would be where the nerve endings would be..by the time the snake realises its cooked, it's too damn late. Scales are good for moisture retention, not so good for tactile sensation.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 12, 2013)

*Jahan*,
You have been given some good answers. I hope you don’t mind if I throw in a few more details.

We have free nerve ending in our skin that detect heat, cold or pain. There are lacking from the skin area snakes. Not a lot of point to having a super-sensitive belly when you crawl around on in through all manner of terrain. It would be difficult enough for us to move through the bush using our backside if we could not stand up. It would pretty much impossible to do so on our belly. It would be far too painful. Yet if we lean again something like a hot fry pan against our abdomen, we tend o be a little slow in reacting and can sustain a nasty burn. Yet put your fingers on something hot and the reaction is almost instantaneous. That is because your fingers have a much higher density of sensors.

Snakes are good at determining their core temperature. When incubating, they are simply maintaining their core temperature in an enclosed space without wander off to bask somewhere. When the surrounding get to the same temperature as their core temperature, the transfer of heat to the surroundings effectively stops and further activity causes a rise in internal temperature. So the stop generating heat until they detect a drop in core temperature, indicating they are no losing heat to the surrounds as they are cooler than the snake. By coiling around the eggs, they are central to the body heat of the mother and least affected by these minor temperature changes. 

Thermal pits do not actually detect heat. They detect infrared radiation. Any object that is than its surrounds, gives off IR. So this allows them to sense the presence and direction of warm blooded animals or even ectotherms that have warmed up in the absence of visible light. It does not tell them how hot something is, just where.

Blue


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## jaclyndaniel (Jan 12, 2013)

Heat Globes on Thermostats  Cant go wrong (if its set up correctly)


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## bt1vn (Jan 13, 2013)

unfortunately my red heat globes would only last a couple of weeks, however once i bought the ceramic one that has lasted a while, would have to be over a year i reckon. i do have a heat rock, but after a while i actually thought it had broken because it never felt that warm. it was still plugged in for ages though and now recently i touched it and was dumbfounded when i realised that it was still warm... i was never told from the pet store any dangers of heat rocks, which now especially after seeing that image of the diamond, im very disappointed about


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## iHerp (Jan 13, 2013)

When they screw up it gets really hot and burns out to extreme temps. but i think it was reptile one who is making one that when i stuffs up it just switches off and cools down


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