# Murray Short Neck Turtles



## Ristof (Nov 1, 2006)

Hi all, as you can tell new to this site

I have two Murray Short Necks - 1M and 1F - they are about 18months old

I have got them in a tank inside at the moment and was wondering about types of substrate that would be suitable for them seeing that a lot can do more harm then good

I have added a photo of the tank and as you can see it is very bare.
The tank size is 900x600x450 which is about 160lts

This is a temp home until I cut down a tree because of falling leaves and make there pond bigger. I would like it to be more of a permanent but a tank that would hold them both would fit in the house

Any help on the substrate would be good - I would also like to add some plants as well. Not too much seeing room in there is a little problem

Thanks in advance and it is good to be here - finally an Australian forum


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## Strange1 (Nov 1, 2006)

Sand is a great substrate, it can be ingested and pass through without a problem. Plants dont go to well with shortnecks as they will eat them. U can try the silk fake plants though. 

Your basing platform seems be to below the water level, you need to provide them with a place they can dry off. Also is there glass between the UV light (I assume its a UV light) and the platform?

Anyways good to have you here and feel free to ask more questions.


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## Ristof (Nov 1, 2006)

Strange1 said:


> Sand is a great substrate, it can be ingested and pass through without a problem. Plants dont go to well with shortnecks as they will eat them. U can try the silk fake plants though.
> 
> Your basing platform seems be to below the water level, you need to provide them with a place they can dry off. Also is there glass between the UV light (I assume its a UV light) and the platform?
> 
> Anyways good to have you here and feel free to ask more questions.


 
Yes the water level is higher then the ledge - I cleaned the tank out last night and put a bit more water in there for them. They don't come out of the water and if they do use the ledge then they should be able to sit under the light without their shell getting wet.

The light is a UV light and there isn't any. The light cover I have has grooves at the front and back of it and it sits on the edge of the glass. Should there be glass between the light and the turts.

will sand just form a garden centre do or should it be river sand.
I do realise they will eat the plants - one reason why I want to add them - get them some greens. Without putting plants in there I may as well leave it as is unless you have some other ideas. Fake ones would only get pulled out as well. No eaten though - you would hope


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## Strange1 (Nov 1, 2006)

Do you take them outside weekly? You really need to either supply UV light or take them outside a few times a week to get natural UV light. If you get a UV light you shouldnt have glass between it and the turtles as glass filters out UV.

I use Val or Elodia in my shortneck tank. Mainly because they are inexpensive. Mine eat it as im still planting it so there is no point me spending alot on plants lol.

Sand from a garden centre will be fine, u can normally get bags of washed sand for around $5, works fine in my tanks


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## Ristof (Nov 1, 2006)

Strange1 said:


> Do you take them outside weekly? You really need to either supply UV light or take them outside a few times a week to get natural UV light. If you get a UV light you shouldnt have glass between it and the turtles as glass filters out UV.
> 
> I use Val or Elodia in my shortneck tank. Mainly because they are inexpensive. Mine eat it as im still planting it so there is no point me spending alot on plants lol.
> 
> Sand from a garden centre will be fine, u can normally get bags of washed sand for around $5, works fine in my tanks


 
There's no glass under the light - just glass to keep it out of the tank

Yeah the Elodia is what I have had in the past - These two turts used to sleep in it when they were smaller untill they learn that it tasted good.

I will get some sand for them as well as plants and a decent filter when I get the money
Is the sand messy or does it help keep the tank cleaner. This should work the same in a pond as well shouldn't it

Thanks again you have been a great help


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## Ristof (Nov 1, 2006)

Are there any plants they dont eat.

Maybe that reed type one - can't think of the name
Any pet store sells it


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## Jason (Nov 1, 2006)

how old where they when you got them? i ask cause imo there is no way they are only 18months old! if that is a three ft tank they would have to be atleast 3-4. jmo i may be wrong but they are huge for 18months


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## Reptizzle (Nov 1, 2006)

i agree with jason, i have had my turtles for 18 months and they are no where near as big... and they weren't even hatchies to start with


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## Ristof (Nov 2, 2006)

We got them in April last year and the female was the size of a 50c peice. The male was slightly smaller. It was from a petshop that a couple of months before didn't have any turtles

The female is are about 15cm now and the male slightly smaller

I started them out in a 2ft before getting this one custom made for them

What can I say - we feed them - they are still swimming around- if they are alive they will grow - I have read that under feeding them will keep them smaller but will also cause health problems


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## Strange1 (Nov 2, 2006)

They are massively overfed though  I have 2 year old ELN's that are barely half that size. In the wild it would take 5 or so years to reach that kind of size. Feeding them less isnt under feeding them to keep them small. its feeding them the right amount so they dont end up like the 80kg cats u see on Today Tonight...


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## cris (Nov 2, 2006)

Back off on the feeding, overfeeding them like that is asking for trouble IMO.


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## Ristof (Nov 2, 2006)

cris said:


> Back off on the feeding, overfeeding them like that is asking for trouble IMO.


 
*How much and how often should I feed it?*
Baby turtles are best given two small feeds a day, although one larger feed will suffice. Adult and semi-adult turtles can be fed either once or twice a day. If normally well fed, turtles can go a few days without food.
The quantity of food a turtle should be given depends on its size. A rough guide is to give the turtle per day a volume of food equivalent in size to the turtle's head. The best guide to whether a turtle is being fed enough is its growth rate. If a turtle grows noticably from week to week it is no doubt receiving more food than is required. On the other hand, a turtle that shows no growth at all over a month is probably not receiving enough food.
It is not possible to overfeed turtles in the same way as fish. A turtle will eat as much as you give it and still come looking for more. It does not harm the turlte if too much food is given, but the turtle's growth rate will increase accordingly.


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## Strange1 (Nov 2, 2006)

Hahahahahahahhahahahaha

Thats so funny


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## hornet (Nov 2, 2006)

twice a day for adults? give me a bread, try every 2-3days and only once a day for hatchlings


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## Ristof (Nov 3, 2006)

hornet said:


> twice a day for adults? give me a bread, try every 2-3days and only once a day for hatchlings


 
How old do you class an adult turtle or do you go on size

From what I have found everyone seems to have their own opinons. I would clas mine as adults so I have been feeding them once a day and the food given is gone in less then a minute. How is that classed as over feeding


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## hornet (Nov 4, 2006)

1st thing, its unnatural, turtles dont naturaly get to eat every single day, if they do get fed everyday they grow to fast and can get different problems and the lifespan is shortened, normally an adult turtle would be 2-3, mayb even 4-5 years old with normal feeding, you should cut down feeding to every 2-3days, you turtles will be better off


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## Tristis (Nov 6, 2006)

imo there doing great. ive seen over weight turts and yours arnt over weight. my python and goannas get fed more than wild ones and they grow bigger quicker so whats wrong with doing it with the turts. my murray river is 4 months old and 8 cm shell lenth. can any of you guys prove hes doing damage to his turtles?


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## Reptizzle (Nov 6, 2006)

can't really tell from the pic..
but isn't overfeeding meant to cause pyrimidal growth of the carapace scutes?


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## cris (Nov 6, 2006)

Tristis said:


> imo there doing great. ive seen over weight turts and yours arnt over weight. my python and goannas get fed more than wild ones and they grow bigger quicker so whats wrong with doing it with the turts. my murray river is 4 months old and 8 cm shell lenth. can any of you guys prove hes doing damage to his turtles?



No i cant prove it at all, Its just that i have been told by ppl who know what there are on about that its a bad idea to overfeed turtles. It is possible it wont do anything bad at all its just not a risk i would be taking. If they were my turtles i would only feed them 2-3 times a week at that size and let them eat plants at will.
If someone has had a turtle and fed it that much and its over 20 years old i guess it would be safe to say its not a major problem, until then i would say you are taking a completely unnecessary risk JMO.

Dont see why you compare them to lizards, by that logic i could say if you feed a snake everyday it will have trouble so you would with turtles too, but that is completely irrelevant.


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## Ristof (Nov 6, 2006)

Thanks guys

I must admitt that I probably have overfed them when they were smaller but I guess they ate all the food I put in there.

In the past few months I have been feeding them everyday but hardly any.

I knew that under feeding them can be dangerous for their health and I didn't want to do that.

I am going to build these two guys a nice biggish pond out side for them to live in seeing the tank is too small for them. 
I will be getting a couple more yound ones and not feed the new ones as much to keep their size down

Now before I do anything are there any like the short necks that don't grow as big but would live with murray's. Just incase I put them all in the one pond and only if we go on holidays.

Thanks


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## ldheav (Nov 6, 2006)

*Turtles*

Hi i have kept urtles for years
This very question came up in another forum

there is a short neck i think it was maquire which i beleive only grown to 18cm shell length 

i would not put them together though untill they are at least 10 cm shell length as Murrys as you prob know tend to be a little bit agro at times

Hope this helps, and i like your setup 

cheers


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## Ristof (Nov 6, 2006)

I am pretty sure that the maquire is another name for the Murray Short neck

Yes I have noticed - it is not recommended to put them outside until they are big enough to be able to hibernate. The smaller ones don't have the body fat to survive

I would be keeping them inside until they get to big for their tank


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## Strange1 (Nov 6, 2006)

The Macleays river short necks only get to 18cm SCL


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## cris (Nov 6, 2006)

IMO you shouldnt be mixing them with macleays its hard enough to keep them regonised as seperate things with them having the same name, breeding them together will just make things worse. Please dont do it or keep them seperately.

Go for another species, if you particularly want short necks you could try getting saw shells but there is a good chance they will be too agro and you may need to keep them seperate or sell them. Apart from that there are krefts but they arnt much smaller. Most long necks would probably be OK with them but they will be almost the same size or bigger depending on the species.


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## Ristof (Nov 6, 2006)

Thanks for that

I like the short necks to the long necks
I will just get a couple more of the same and then there will 4 turts from two different parents/hatchings.


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## sxc_celly (Nov 6, 2006)

Hornet Baby turtles should be fed twice a day. Anyway, they are HUGE for 18months. I would lessen the feeding. Ive bred turtles before and they are WAY oversized. Underfeeding and overfeeding isnt recommended. There is a nice average in the middle. Everyone has different opinions. If your worried or interestd to know why theyre so huge, go to yout local pet stores (that houses turtles/turtle products), and tell them what your feeding and doing. Ive got 2 little ones (a little bigger than a 50c piece) in a 4t tank. They get fed twic a day, a few frozen tablets (3-4) of BrineShrimp and Bloodworm. Ive also got Elodea in the tank for them to munch on. Everyone has different opinions, its up to you what you do with your turtles.


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## cris (Nov 6, 2006)

A good way to check if your turtles are fat is to see if much fat is bulging out where their back legs are.


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## Ristof (Nov 6, 2006)

I think it was more the fact of how much I was feeding them to how often,

The feeding amount has dropped over the last few months and now it is every few days

You guys have been a lot of help, and just to let you know they seem to be happy as ever. They don't look to be overweight just over size


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## Ristof (Nov 6, 2006)

There is no fat bulging out of under their shells
The only thing you can see is their head and feet


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## ldheav (Nov 6, 2006)

I keep Turtles 
my adults get a meal once every 3 days 
my smaller ones get it ever 2nd day 

also, dont mix small turtles with big turtles remember that


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## Ristof (Nov 6, 2006)

ldheav said:


> I keep Turtles
> my adults get a meal once every 3 days
> my smaller ones get it ever 2nd day
> 
> also, dont mix small turtles with big turtles remember that


 
I wasn't going too but thanks for the heads up


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## Tatelina (Nov 6, 2006)

hey even if you are 'overfeeding' by the opinions of most people here...atleast they're healthy!


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## ldheav (Jan 24, 2007)

yeh but the problem is is that they wont be in the future


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## hornet (Jan 24, 2007)

it will shorten their life span, same with over feeding snakes


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## expansa1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Hi, overfeeding, regardless of whether it is deliberate or not can cause serious health problems including excessively rapid growth rates, obesity and hepatic lipidosis which is commonly referred to as fatty liver. Obese turtles store fat in their abdominal cavity as well as their organs. The most commonly affected organ is the liver. Over long periods of being overfed and not receiving proper exercise, as in the case of being kept in an aquarium, the liver can absorb so much fat that it ceases to function properly and may result in the death of a reasonably young animal! An excessively fast growth rate will also result in a shortened life-span.

It is always best to duplicate growth rates that animals would normally have in a good season with good food availability in the wild. Remember, turtles need to exercise lots to find, hunt and consume food in the wild. This is not the case in captivity!

Overfeeding and rapid growth rates can also be responsible for egg-binding in young females. Obesity may also result in egg retention. In males, a low sperm count can be the result of overfeeding.

As I mention in my caresheet, it is best to feed hatchlings a good sized meal once per day and adults only 2-3 times per week. Always add freshwater plants like Vallisneria sp (Ribbonweed), Azolla and Elodea etc. because hatchling, juvenile and adults will consume aquatic plants if they are slightly underfed or fed the correct amount( for short-necked turtles only). If you are always over feeding them ‘junk food’ like bloodworms and ‘Brine-shrimp’ then they will not be forced to eat natural, nutritional food like Ribbonweed!

If you are also always overfeeding your turtles a diet high in protein then shell deformities like pyramiding and other shell deformities may occur! Sometimes turtles will experience difficulty shedding scutes properly with a diet high in protein and low in keratin.

I have been breeding turtles for over 36 years and have bred many species for the first time in Australia. I have bred thousands of turtles during this time successfully with a high number being 3rd, 4th and 5th generation.



Craig
Below is a rather graphic photo of a turtle that has not been fed enough and the ignorant keeper was too stupid to realize that there was a problem! Unfortunately it was a turtle that I sold to someone who then passed it onto a friend who clearly did not know how to look after it properly!


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## expansa1 (Jan 25, 2007)

Bump


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## ldheav (Jan 25, 2007)

I agree, its a balence but i would recomend that people that have their turts inside in tanks should take them out regulary onto grass or somthing and let them exercise 


did that turtle die craig or did you nurse it back to health

i also think there is a hiddern problem with overfeeding, especially here in victoria, because the regulations are so tight as to legal sizes etc regarding turtle sales here in victoria, some breeders choose too overfeed to bring them up to sixe quickly, somethimes feeding 4-5 times a day


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## mrdestiny (Jan 25, 2007)

I always prefer to see turtles of that size in a pond with some feeder fish where it will be more like in the wild and they get more exercise. 
But getting back to the substrate issue in the tank, if you must keep them in a tank temporarily, you'll find that although it will look better with sand or gravel, things will be cleaner, and easier to keep that way if you use no substrate at all.


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## expansa1 (Jan 25, 2007)

ldheav said:


> I agree, its a balence but i would recomend that people that have their turts inside in tanks should take them out regulary onto grass or somthing and let them exercise
> 
> 
> did that turtle die craig or did you nurse it back to health
> ...



Unfortunately the turtle was too emaciated and couldn't even lift it's head up! It died 3 days later after coming into my care. I obviously tried everything that I could!


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## hornet (Jan 25, 2007)

i always have feeder fish in with my turtles to give them excercise and feed them 2times a day, these are only young turtles i have and not all of them eat in the morning so they get theirs in the afternoon, it will be cut back shortly


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## Glimmerman (Jan 25, 2007)

That caresheet is fantastic. Thanks Craig.

I got two hatchling macquarii this season from Garth & Fay. This is my first time keeping turtles. Now with this info I know they will be happy. Thanks again


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## hornet (Jan 25, 2007)

craig is a great bloke to deal with, very friendly and gives great advice


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## ldheav (Jan 25, 2007)

sure his he is the turtle buff on APS lol 
i agree though people should reframe from keeping turtles of that size in aquariums, they should be in ponds

the problem in victoria lies soley with the petstores, they encourage people who are just getting into turtles to buy adults, but they also sell tanks saying that it is exceptable to put them in tanks for their whole lifespan 

i recal going to a store when i was starting out years ago and the store management advised me that i could keep an adult murry 30cm shell length in a 2X1f tank, of course i did not take him up on his offer lol


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## warren63 (Jan 25, 2007)

ldheav said:


> i agree though people should reframe from keeping turtles of that size in aquariums, they should be in ponds


Thanks for the above comment as im just about to purchase a 36'' x 18'' x 18'' tank for a couple of turtle hatchlings, im hoping to get a couple of years out of them before relocating to a larger tank or possibly swapping for hatchlings. What do you think is the maximum size turts i can keep in this tank. Appreciate your opinion.


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## ldheav (Jan 25, 2007)

hatchlings are hard to say cause they are so small
i keep my hatchies in a 4 foot tank , i have never kept them in a 2 footer


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## expansa1 (Jan 26, 2007)

Glimmerman said:


> That caresheet is fantastic. Thanks Craig.
> 
> I got two hatchling macquarii this season from Garth & Fay. This is my first time keeping turtles. Now with this info I know they will be happy. Thanks again



Thanks Glimmerman!
Cheers,
Craig


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