# Why Do People Dislike Jags?



## Iguana (Dec 10, 2016)

Hey everyone, 
So my curiosity stems mostly from a recent thread "just discovered a bad side to the hobby" in which a couple of people have said they didn't condone jags for first time keepers or want them in their collection.

To be honest I don't know too much about jags, apart from the fact they are prone to neurological issues, I was at a pet store once and someone was trying to sell me one for $600 or so, when I asked about the Neuro issues they assured me that his jags were 'clean' and the neuro only appears from heavy inbreeding. Is this true?

Just wondering everyone's opinions on them and why people dislike them, but at the same time I see tons of them at every expo. 

Just a disclaimer, I'm not looking at getting any Jags, I prefer the wild types myself 

Thanks,


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## pinefamily (Dec 10, 2016)

Like most people, I can admire their colours and patterns. I would never have one, partly for the neuro issues, and partly because we just love the natural colours and patterns better. I don't think we will ever get to how it is oversea, especially the US. Over there, you will pay top dollar for a pure carpet python, if you can even find a guaranteed pure one.
Not sure on the inbreeding thing; as far as I am aware it can, and I stress can, happen in any jag. The question I have is why, when current DNA testing is starting to show that most carpets are the same DNA wise. Only the bredli, the Darwin and the southwest seem to have different DNA.


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## Wally (Dec 10, 2016)

The nefarious manner in which they turned up in Australia.


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## Iguana (Dec 11, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Like most people, I can admire their colours and patterns. I would never have one, partly for the neuro issues, and partly because we just love the natural colours and patterns better. I don't think we will ever get to how it is oversea, especially the US. Over there, you will pay top dollar for a pure carpet python, if you can even find a guaranteed pure one.
> Not sure on the inbreeding thing; as far as I am aware it can, and I stress can, happen in any jag. The question I have is why, when current DNA testing is starting to show that most carpets are the same DNA wise. Only the bredli, the Darwin and the southwest seem to have different DNA.



Thanks for the answer  
I agree, jags do have nice colors most of the time, but I would be paranoid about the neuro issues appearing. 
And I've heard that too, most of their carpets are mixes or 'mutts' I believe, makes me appreciate the pure wild types we have here.
It is a mystery that's for sure, I was assured it was because of inbreeding, maybe he was just trying to sell me a 'pure' jag. I wonder if anyone is doing any research on it, it would be great to find out how the neuro happens in some jags and not in others. 
Knew about Bredli's, but didn't know that Darwins and Southwest having different DNA, very interesting, i'll look into that for sure, I thought only Bredli's had unique DNA.


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## Iguana (Dec 11, 2016)

Wally said:


> The nefarious manner in which they turned up in Australia.



Did they not originate in Australia?


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## Bushfire (Dec 11, 2016)

The bloodline and zebras were very much smuggled in from overseas and they made a killing in the profits. But at the time in an attempt to deflect attention they were labeled Reduced Pattern Moreila (RPM). To me this whole event took aussie reptile keepers to a new ethical low.


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## BrownHash (Dec 11, 2016)

For me its:

the fact that they were smuggled into Australia,
the neuro issues as a reptile buyer,
the ethical issues of their breeding (people trying to breed Jags with Jags which result in the lethal Leucistic form); and
they also muddy the waters genetically of other Morelia sp.
The last point also relates to any of the hybrids and crossbreeds. It's getting harder and harder to trust that what you are buying is what you asked for. People can always argue that it doesn't really matter as long as the snake looks good, but bad genetics can easily contaminate breeding projects and cause issues down the track. I guess I feel that Jags are the "poster child" of this issue.

I remember when I first joined APS, you couldn't mention Jags without it causing a sh!t storm. As snakes and reptiles became more popular the number of purist and others who frowned upon them became diluted and Jags became accepted. I understand that, like Cane Toads, they are here to stay, but personally I'm not a fan and think of them as the garbage of the Morelia world. 

As people say, 'a snake is only worth what you are willing to pay' and for me, Jags are worthless.


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## Iguana (Dec 13, 2016)

Thanks @Bushfire and @BrownHash, I had no idea they were smuggled in, that is ironic to me now since many people are so against exotics. 

@BrownHash Thanks for the answer  
I don't know too much about the genetics of a Jag, but i'm assuming the gene is recessive, is it an issue if the ancestor of a snake was a jag? Wouldn't the gene remain recessive and therefore not harm the snake? Unless by chance it was bred with another snake who had the Jag gene. I agree that it's muddied genetics, but is it more than an ethical issue? (ie contaminated snake)
I can't see there being many 'pure' snakes in the market in the future, with the takeover of new morphs and such. I guess there will always be purists, but new keepers may favor bright colors and fancy patterns over wild types, I did at one point.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Dec 13, 2016)

@Iguana
jags are co-dominant.

I have no issues with jags apart from neuro, but agree with alot of the purist comments, I plan to breed wild type jungles (tim Faulkner line) and a nice Dajarra locale of carpet (just got to find her a bf). but I love zebra's and will also be breeding them and will try for a super zebra.


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## TrueBlue (Dec 14, 2016)

Jags have done heaps of damage to the hobby imo. The amount of cross bred rubbish out there these days is incredible. Not my thing and never will be. And then there is the neuro issue that effects ALL jags. Not my thing at all.


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## Iguana (Dec 14, 2016)

Prof_Moreliarty said:


> @Iguana
> jags are co-dominant.
> 
> I have no issues with jags apart from neuro, but agree with alot of the purist comments, I plan to breed wild type jungles (tim Faulkner line) and a nice Dajarra locale of carpet (just got to find her a bf). but I love zebra's and will also be breeding them and will try for a super zebra.



Thanks for clearing that up 
The neuro issue reminds me of the 'spider' gene found in Ball pythons, although neuro isn't that bad, still pretty awful to encourage. Does the Zebra have any issues?


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## Iguana (Dec 14, 2016)

TrueBlue said:


> Jags have done heaps of damage to the hobby imo. The amount of cross bred rubbish out there these days is incredible. Not my thing and never will be. And then there is the neuro issue that effects ALL jags. Not my thing at all.



Yeah from what i've read I can see why people dislike them so much, I didn't know it effects all of them, that's just awful 
I feel very bad for the snakes, it's them that suffer. They still need homes and such, maybe someone could open up a 'Jag' rescue, since they will be unwanted in the future, but I'm guessing people will still breed them.


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## kittycat17 (Dec 14, 2016)

Iguana said:


> Thanks for clearing that up
> The neuro issue reminds me of the 'spider' gene found in Ball pythons, although neuro isn't that bad, still pretty awful to encourage. Does the Zebra have any issues?



I've heard of super zebras have pig tails? But I haven't personally seen any


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## Iguana (Dec 14, 2016)

kittycat17 said:


> I've heard of super zebras have pig tails? But I haven't personally seen any
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's crazy if true, wonder if they would still function like a relatively normal tail


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Dec 14, 2016)

Well.. the pigtail thing certainly puts me off wouldn't mind seeing a photo if someone had one. is it actually curly like a pig tail?


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## kittycat17 (Dec 14, 2016)

Iguana said:


> That's crazy if true, wonder if they would still function like a relatively normal tail



Just a quote from a forum after a quick google search 
Was posted back in 2014 







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## chilli-mudcrab (Dec 14, 2016)

I like my jags got a few different kinds none of them show any signs of neurological disorders apart from biting (looking at you junglejag). And yeah I find lot of normals to be boring that's my opinion


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## chilli-mudcrab (Dec 14, 2016)




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## imalizardbro (Dec 15, 2016)

All jaguar pythons have neurological problems, some display it more than others, some may not even show signs until its a lot older or stressed.
The super form is lethal.
People have crossed them to any carpet available at the time, this has polluted the carpet complex more than people care to talk about.

They do nothing for me, would rather a nice striped pure coastal any day over a jungle jag etc.


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## Iguana (Dec 15, 2016)

Thanks for sharing that @kittycat17 I guess the pigtail myth is true


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## TrueBlue (Dec 16, 2016)

These look better than any jag imo, and are 100% pure coastal. Some rival super zebras as well, and with no pig tails.


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## TrueBlue (Dec 16, 2016)

TrueBlue said:


> These look better than any jag and are 100% pure coastal. Some rival super zebras as well, and with no pig tails.View attachment 319518
> View attachment 319519
> View attachment 319520


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## pinefamily (Dec 16, 2016)

Your coastals just keep getting better and better, TrueBlue.


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## kittycat17 (Dec 16, 2016)

Seconded pinefamily 
Better than super zebs imo 


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Dec 16, 2016)

certainly do have some nice hypo's @TrueBlue


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## BredliFreak (Dec 19, 2016)

@TrueBlue The hypos are stunning as usual!

While I don't support hybridisation, I do admire the patterning on some Jags and other hybrids. I have took a bit of a break from the herp hobby (in terms of being active) so I ask: Does the Zebra morph require crossbreeding, or are there 'pure' forms of it without mixing and matching with other 'subspecies'?

Bredli


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## kittycat17 (Dec 19, 2016)

BredliFreak said:


> @TrueBlue The hypos are stunning as usual!
> 
> While I don't support hybridisation, I do admire the patterning on some Jags and other hybrids. I have took a bit of a break from the herp hobby (in terms of being active) so I ask: Does the Zebra morph require crossbreeding, or are there 'pure' forms of it without mixing and matching with other 'subspecies'?
> 
> Bredli



I believe it originated in jungles so you can get pure jungle zebras


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## chilli-mudcrab (Dec 23, 2016)

Um pure zebras even though it came from overseas?


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## msxcbvc (Jan 5, 2017)

I have a jag, but I probably wouldn't get another one. His neurological problems aren't particularly noticeable most of the time, and he still does normal snake things, but he doesn't handle like my other snakes, his movements feel kind of uncertain like he can't balance as well.


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## cement (Jan 26, 2017)

Yeah well thats understandable seeing that neuro directly affects muscle activity. The neuro and the reduced pattern cannot be separated nor bred out. 
The introduction of jags had absolutely nothing to do with positive input into the australian hobby at all, it was an illegal and fiendish money grabbing exercise by a lowlife and his friends just before his retirement from the hobby. This person had at one time, great credibility, and he profited immensely from the very same hobby, who as a parting gesture injected it with a curse. 
"inbreeding"!!! hahaha!!


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## pythoninfinite (Jan 26, 2017)

cement said:


> Yeah well thats understandable seeing that neuro directly affects muscle activity. The neuro and the reduced pattern cannot be separated nor bred out.
> The introduction of jags had absolutely nothing to do with positive input into the australian hobby at all, it was an illegal and fiendish money grabbing exercise by a lowlife and his friends just before his retirement from the hobby. This person had at one time, great credibility, and he profited immensely from the very same hobby, who as a parting gesture injected it with a curse.
> "inbreeding"!!! hahaha!!



Ah I remember it well... along with the great "RPM" myth...

Jamie


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## TrueBlue (Feb 8, 2017)

lol yes the "RPM" scam. Wow what a parasite he was to the hobby, even in the beginning he was bad news I picked it and refused to deal with him years before the jag scam. He tried to get animals off me a number of times over the years but I refused to sell him anything.


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## reen08 (Feb 8, 2017)

I have 2 female jungles that don't display any neurological problems at all. If they do so down the track, then so be it. I bought them knowing they are born with this condition but I don't care. I don't love them any less and I will spend whatever amount of money is necessary on vet bills if need be.

Jungles may not be perfect but neither are humans. Would you stop dating someone if they had asthma or diabetes?

Mind you, I don't agree with deliberately introducing medical conditions of any sort to an animal.

To me, jungles are extra special and they still have their own personality and just like any other living thing


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Feb 8, 2017)

So they are jungle jags? jungles on their own dont have any neuro problems, the jag morph originated in coastal carpets and has now been crossbred with pretty much every morelia sub species.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 24, 2017)

pythoninfinite said:


> Ah I remember it well... along with the great "RPM" myth...


Who is this? Want to look out for him in case this pops up in the hobby again... seen some RPMs on the Southern X Reptiles page, where it claims they are pure and without neuro issues (a morph, not a hybrid).

Note: this bat keeps popping up from when i accidentally pasted it into this message. Can't delete so just ignore it please.


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## Shaggz (Jun 29, 2017)

I have always been anti Jag due to the Neuro issues aswell as the muddying of pure bloodlines. Recently I rescued a couple of snakes from a crackhouse where they weren't being cared for and one of them is a Jag, It shows a bit of neuro under stress but otherwise seems fine. Because I am a sucker I will keep it until it dies of old age or neuro related issues and make sure it is looked after properly for the rest of it's life. At no time whatsoever will I ever consider breeding from it nor would I ever purchase a Jag voluntarily, As much as it has beautiful colouring as far as I am concerned you can't beat good clean Aussie bloodlines.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 30, 2017)

TrueBlue said:


> lol yes the "RPM" scam. Wow what a parasite he was to the hobby, even in the beginning he was bad news I picked it and refused to deal with him years before the jag scam. He tried to get animals off me a number of times over the years but I refused to sell him anything.



He was a hysterically arrogant sob too...

J


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 30, 2017)

pythoninfinite said:


> He was a hysterically arrogant sob too...
> 
> J


Who is this guy?


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## Waterrat (Jun 30, 2017)

If you don't know, it was probably before your time.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 30, 2017)

Waterrat said:


> If you don't know, it was probably before your time.


Yes, most likely, I only got into herps about 3 or 4 years ago. But would still like to know the name, because RPMs seem to be popping up again on RDU and even on Southern X Reptiles' website.


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## pinefamily (Jun 30, 2017)

Jags are still around, and there are still "breeders" out there that think people want them, but I honestly think jags have lost their popularity.


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