# hibernate or not



## Snapper (Mar 22, 2016)

Hi everyone.Haven't kept anything for over ten years. Have had a pygmy beardie for the last 7 months. It is an adult. Previously i would have allowed it to hibernate. i was originally taught to not hibernate for the first year in the case of babies and then hibernate after that. 

after a bit of research on the net, i haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer to this question. So my question to you guys/girls is what is the current theory on hibernation. Should i hibernate an adultor not. If so,for he same time duration as say a beardie in the wild or for a lesser amount of time.

Thanks in advance for your replies.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2016)

You will never be able to make them hibernate on account that they dont....
They do brumate though. Because its part of their normal cycle, I do it for adult specimens.


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 22, 2016)

I do not believe it is not necessary for them to go into brumation over winter , keep a long day cycle and keep them warm and the food coming and they will stay active. 

I think breeders encourage brumation in the belief it will promote more successful breeding (larger clutches).


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2016)

It's more to reduce obesity than anything if they arent breeding. So many snakes are stuffed full, all year round which isn't ideal.


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## Snapper (Mar 22, 2016)

No wonder i can't find any info on it when i call it the wrong thing. I will do a bit more research. If it will not affect Croc (it's name) adversely if i don't do it it i won't as i selfishly don't want to not have it sitting in the lounge room staring at me when i get home from work.


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## Snowman (Mar 22, 2016)

You can leave it in the lounge. Brumation means that they slow down in winter. But they sill will bask and such. If they are young animals, dont do it this year and that gives you plenty of time to read up about the process.
Basically this is what I do for my carpets:
May-August 8 hours of heat at 35 degrees
September - May 12 hours of heat at 35 degrees.
When its time to adjust the hours, I do one hour each week until its at the desired 8 or 12 hours depending on the time of year.

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No idea what you do with lizards though. I dont keep any pets with legs!


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## pinefamily (Mar 22, 2016)

Beardies will start to go off their food about this time of year, which means they are getting ready to brumate. If you can, feed them up with whatever their favourite food might be, so they will go down in good condition. They will start to disappear into their hides for longer periods as well.
Keeping your beardie awake through winter is not in the animal's best interests, as Snowman has said.


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 22, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Beardies will start to go off their food about this time of year, which means they are getting ready to brumate. If you can, feed them up with whatever their favourite food might be, so they will go down in good condition. They will start to disappear into their hides for longer periods as well.
> Keeping your beardie awake through winter is not in the animal's best interests, as Snowman has said.


 How so ? 

what harm does it do to them to keep them awake and active over winter ?


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## CrazyNut (Mar 22, 2016)

I don't think it is necessary unless you are breeding. I have never done a cool down period for brumation (for lizards or snakes) simply because I have never bred anything. I have never seen any adverse effects from this (in my personal experience), not to say there isn't but I have never had any problems. They usally don't eat as much durring these cooler periods regardless (again solely from what I adserve and experience). [MENTION=41780]Snowman[/MENTION] its the same with lizards, though I don't know of any adverse affects from not allowing for a brumation/cooldown period. I have the one snake and everything else has legs haha


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## pinefamily (Mar 23, 2016)

kingofnobbys said:


> How so ?
> 
> what harm does it do to them to keep them awake and active over winter ?


Keeping them awake unnaturally, when they are naturally trying to brumate, is not good for them. "Someone" had a very long argument on another forum about this previously. If it is in-built into them to want to brumate, then I believe let them do it.
Many years ago, before there was all this information about correct care, our first beardie used to sleep for longer periods over winter, even though we left its heat on out of ignorance.
As soon as our guys start to hide away, we turn the lights off; gradually to start with, by shortening the "day" cycle.


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## GBWhite (Mar 23, 2016)

kingofnobbys said:


> How so ?
> 
> what harm does it do to them to keep them awake and active over winter ?



Brumation to reptiles is the same as hibernation in mammals. The only difference is the terminology.

It is an instinctive survival strategy that has been developed over thousands of years of evolution where their bodies have developed to adapt to harsh winter conditions. We shouldn't expect the way their body functions to change over the short period that they have been kept under captive conditions. It is far better for the welfare of any captive reptile to be provided an environment as close to that as they would experience under natural conditions. I can see no other purpose for not providing them with a natural brumation period other than simply for our own pleasure. 

Many keepers are of the opinion that by not providing such an environment results in the animal's life span being significantly reduced.

George.


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## pinefamily (Mar 23, 2016)

No one is going to change your opinion, kingofnobbys. I know this from experience. But please don't continue to argue points that have been amply explained above.
Well and good if your lizards show no sign of brumation ( we only have you word for that); I am not going to argue about that with you. However it must be noted that nearly every other owner/keeper does have reptiles that brumate, and look after them accordingly. It is nothing to do with breeding, just what is in the best interest of the reptile.


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 23, 2016)

since my other post was deleted I will only reiterate that lack of brumation will shorten the life span of your reptile.


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 23, 2016)

I'm not sure how other species fair in regards to brumation, but I remember reading in _A Guide to . . . Australian Lizards in Captivity _that adult sand dragons, in particular, need to undergo winter cooling - otherwise they will experience a premature death. 

Quoted from the source, page 744.

"_Active cooling over winter is necessary for adult and breeding dragons in this group. In many species a lack of active cooling will result in premature death - this has been observed in C.isolepis, C.nuchalis, C.reticulatus, C.pictus, C.fordi and C.maculosus. Many species that appear to cope without sufficient cooling often breed poorly in the following season, even if they appeared healthy and recovered after wasting. It seems they need the time-out period provided by cooling and brumation to prepare both metabolically and reproductively for the following season. Without this they appear to exhaust their fat stores beyond a point of recovery and simply 'burn out'._"

Hope this helps. Most of my lizards are slowing down as well, except for a few. It will be quite boring when everyone is bedded down. But hey, I can have a holiday!


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## CrazyNut (Mar 23, 2016)

Hmm learn something new everyday. Will turn down temps this winter, see if I see any change. Wonder if C.fionni life spans are effected by brumation(?) my guy was 8 years old when he passed still two years above average but anyway. Anyone have any papers on this? Be an interesting read.... Not sure if any of those "personal attacks" were directed at me, sorry(?) I wasn't giving advice or anything just sharing my expereince (only making that comment cause someone quoated me and the post was deleted before I could read it :/ ).


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 24, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> Hmm learn something new everyday. Will turn down temps this winter, see if I see any change. Wonder if C.fionni life spans are effected by brumation(?) my guy was 8 years old when he passed still two years above average but anyway. Anyone have any papers on this? Be an interesting read.... Not sure if any of those "personal attacks" were directed at me, sorry(?) I wasn't giving advice or anything just sharing my expereince (only making that comment cause someone quoated me and the post was deleted before I could read it :/ ).


 see PM

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Oshkii said:


> I'm not sure how other species fair in regards to brumation, but I remember reading in _A Guide to . . . Australian Lizards in Captivity _that adult sand dragons, in particular, need to undergo winter cooling - otherwise they will experience a premature death.
> 
> Quoted from the source, page 744.
> 
> ...


 Interesting BUT I don't see P.vitticeps listed. 


I will repeat, I'm not breeding my lizards.


Maybe there is a properly done study out there somewhere to settle this discussion one way or another.

This is from an experienced reptile vet : http://www.nicklinwayvet.com.au/bearded-dragons/ 



> Brumation is similar to mammalian hibernation, and is the time that lizards will enter a period of inactivity during the cooler months. As the temperature drops to 15[SUP]o[/SUP]C to 20[SUP]o[/SUP]C, feeding should be reduced, and cease when the temperature drops below 12[SUP]o[/SUP]C. At this time most Bearded Dragons will enter brumation. During this period, the photoperiod and temperature should also be altered. Indications of impending brumation include reduced activity, loss of appetite and little or no basking. Bearded Dragons will hide themselves under logs or leaf litter or in a hiding den during this time.
> Although it is important for some reptiles, brumation is not necessary to maintain the health of Bearded Dragons, and should not occur in their first winter. It is however needed to induce breeding.


If it was necessary for beardie longevity one might expect she'd say so.


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## GBWhite (Mar 24, 2016)

Hi Nobby,

As the vet's profiles at Nicklin Way Vets indicate none appear to actually specialise in reptiles. The extract of the article that you have quoted is taken from the pages of Brisbane Bird and Exotics Veterinary Services and after reading the profiles of the vets there I wouldn't hold much faith in their experience with reptiles either.

Personally I'm not aware of any scientific studies regarding the effects on captive beardeds when deliberately deprived of following their natural cycle to brumate. However I don't see the purpose of preventing them from engaging in a natural event other than for our own personal enjoyment of watching them.

Personally I couldn't care less how you keep your critters but if you can provide me with info on why NOT allowing them to experience brumation is beneficial to them, I'm all ears.

Cheers.


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## pinefamily (Mar 24, 2016)

I'm with you, George. If it is the animal's natural inclination to brumate, then surely it is cruel to not let it. The only part of the quote above I agree with is to not let them in their first winter. Occasionally there have been beardies that have wanted to brumate in their first winter, and advice has always been given to try and avoid this, as their bodies aren't up to the brumation process at that stage.
[MENTION=40362]CrazyNut[/MENTION], having read the deleted posts, no one was having a dig or go at you mate. The attacks were aimed at two old "sparring partners" from another forum.


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## CrazyNut (Mar 24, 2016)

Cool. So would I have to decrease ambient temperature (and basking spot) as well as the daylight cycle? I can easily do both but as I'm unsure better to ask haha (aplogies @Snapper don't mean to hyjack your thread). [MENTION=38465]pinefamily[/MENTION] Thanks mate (thought my lack of understanding might be the centre of negative attetion as it has been in the past).


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## pinefamily (Mar 24, 2016)

If/when your reptile looks like it wants to start sleeping more, and starts to go off its food, slowly start to shorten the day cycle, which is both lights and heat. You don't need to lower the heat, just shorten the time it is on. When I say slowly, probably about 30 minutes to an hour a week.
You have to be careful and monitor the situation, as sometimes they stop start this process.


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## CrazyNut (Mar 24, 2016)

Cool I have timers on eveything so that's easy haha (well bar two but I have an extra timer anyway).


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## Waterrat (Mar 24, 2016)

Hi George,
I had similar discussion elsewhere ...... with open end. Do you think brumation / hibernation, or lack of, affects longevity? Physiological time as opposed to real time comes to mind. Tardigrades in resistant stages are switched off, metabolism goes to near 0 and they don't 'age'.
Your thoughts?

cheers Michael



GBWhite said:


> Hi Nobby,
> 
> As the vet's profiles at Nicklin Way Vets indicate none appear to actually specialise in reptiles. The extract of the article that you have quoted is taken from the pages of Brisbane Bird and Exotics Veterinary Services and after reading the profiles of the vets there I wouldn't hold much faith in their experience with reptiles either.
> 
> ...


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## GBWhite (Mar 24, 2016)

Hi Michael,

Considering that brumation (whether for a couple of weeks or a couple of months) provides a natural means for the metabolism of reptiles to have a break I'm of the belief that it not only contributes to longevity but the overall health of the animal.

Tardigrades are a rather incredible life form in their own right. Their ability to survive under extreme variations in temperature, radiation levels that would be fatal to nearly all other life forms and the vacuum of space place them in a different field altogether.

All the best,

George.


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## Snapper (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks for all of the replies, have given me lots of good information. Didn't realise it was a controversial subject, sorry for any tension caused. Will do a little bit more research and then bounce my conclusions of you guys and girls to see if i am on the right track.

Thanks again


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 24, 2016)

Kingofnobbys, the matter shouldn't be _*if*_ a lack of brumation is detrimental to a Central Bearded Dragon's health, but rather should be _*why*_ suppress their natural behaviour. Even tropical species that live in a permanently warm environment go through a "shut down" mode during the dry season. Let the lizard be a lizard, they're not like cats and dogs. We owe it to them as dedicated reptile keepers where our sole aim should be their welfare.


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 24, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> Kingofnobbys, the matter shouldn't be _*if*_ a lack of brumation is detrimental to a Central Bearded Dragon's health, but rather should be _*why*_ suppress their natural behaviour. Even tropical species that live in a permanently warm environment go through a "shut down" mode during the dry season. Let the lizard be a lizard, they're not like cats and dogs. We owe it to them as dedicated reptile keepers where our sole aim should be their welfare.



All well and good if your lizards / beardies were kept in an uninsulated / unheated room or the garage and exposed to very cold conditions in winter, mine are not, they are housed in family area in my house and never experience temperatures below 22 - 24oC even overnight in the dead of winter. They've never shown any indication of wantimg to go into brumation . The same applies to my skinks (Wriggles lived to ripe old age for a water skink of 7 - 8 years old, she never bromated).


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## pinefamily (Mar 24, 2016)

[MENTION=41275]kingofnobbys[/MENTION], I hope you mean by that your house is climate controlled, not that you give them night time heat.


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## Snowman (Mar 24, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> Hmm learn something new everyday. Will turn down temps this winter, see if I see any change. Wonder if C.fionni life spans are effected by brumation(?) my guy was 8 years old when he passed still two years above average but anyway. Anyone have any papers on this? Be an interesting read.... Not sure if any of those "personal attacks" were directed at me, sorry(?) I wasn't giving advice or anything just sharing my expereince (only making that comment cause someone quoated me and the post was deleted before I could read it :/ ).



It's not about turning down the temps. That is dangerous. It's just reducing the hours the heat is on for.

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Snapper said:


> Thanks for all of the replies, have given me lots of good information. Didn't realise it was a controversial subject, sorry for any tension caused. Will do a little bit more research and then bounce my conclusions of you guys and girls to see if i am on the right track.
> 
> Thanks again



It's not contriversial. Some people just don't have the same experince and education as others. We are all at different stages of learning and we will all keep learning...


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## GBWhite (Mar 24, 2016)

kingofnobbys said:


> All well and good if your lizards / beardies were kept in an uninsulated / unheated room or the garage and exposed to very cold conditions in winter, mine are not, they are housed in family area in my house and never experience temperatures below 22 - 24oC even overnight in the dead of winter. They've never shown any indication of wantimg to go into brumation . The same applies to my skinks (Wriggles lived to ripe old age for a water skink of 7 - 8 years old, she never bromated).



You must keep yourself isolated from keepers or don't mix with those with a similar interest. There are plenty of keepers out there that have specialised reptile rooms that are maintained at reasonably warm temperatures throughout the cooler months and yet are still able to provide a suitable environment for their critters to experience brumation. 

Sounds to me that yours are not afforded the opportunity to display any indication that they want to brumate. Would you recognise the signs anyway? Ambient room temperature does not truly reflect an environment within an enclosure and from previous threads you have indicated that you maintain a constant very warm temperature within the enclosure throughout the year. I also note that you like to disturb them (for play time and treats) at night when they should be afforded the opportunity to sleep.

I believe that it's evident from your posts that you would prefer to keep them awake and active when they should at least be provided the opportunity to chill out. Clearly demonstrates what I was referring to earlier about not letting them brumate or rest for one's own self interests.

Like i said earlier I don't really care how you maintain your critters but these are not husbandry practices that I would readily encourage anyone to implement.

Cheers,

George.

Ps: Pinefamily. I agree that for many reasons it is best to maintain young captive reptiles in a warm environment during the first year of their life however in the wild they are quite capable of undertaking brumation without any adverse affects. Eg; Terrestrial species of both lizards and snakes usually seek refuge underground and arboreal/semi arboreal species often locate themselves in hollow logs, inside trees or even in the roofs of dwellings.


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 24, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> @kingofnobbys, I hope you mean by that your house is climate controlled, not that you give them night time heat.



Yes my house is climate controlled 24/7 and insulated, we rarely turn off the aircon , most the time it doesn't need to work very hard at all. 

There is a thermostatically regulated warmed area in each enclosure available o/night. Sometimes they sleep there sometimes they don't.


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## CrazyNut (Mar 24, 2016)

Snowman said:


> It's not about turning down the temps. That is dangerous. It's just reducing the hours the heat is on for.
> 
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> 
> ...


upmost respct and curtesy to you mate but if you had read the other comment you would realise I already asked about what to do and got an answer but thanks anyway!


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## pinefamily (Mar 24, 2016)

There is no point in arguing with some people, who seem to take no notice of how to look after reptiles but do whatever they feel is best.


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## Wally (Mar 24, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> There is no point in arguing with some people, who seem to take no notice of how to look after reptiles but do whatever they feel is best.



Reason for being ostracized right there.


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