# White lipped pythons.



## TrueBlue (Nov 28, 2013)

A good friend has allowed me to take a couple of pics of some of his white lips and post them.
These animals are 100% legal.
Absolutely stunning animals to say the least. They will be available to everyone in the hobby in a few years time.


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## Djbowker (Nov 28, 2013)

I wonder how much they will go for when available?


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## smithson (Nov 28, 2013)

Can't wait look noice as !!!


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## Bushman (Nov 28, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> A good friend has allowed me to take a couple of pics of some of his white lips and post them.
> These animals are 100% legal.
> Absolutely stunning animals to say the least. They will be available to everyone in the hobby in a few years time.


That's good news mate. Thanks for sharing that with us. 
What's their temperament like? i.e how do they handle?


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## Ryan Y (Nov 28, 2013)

You guys should be excited Black or Southern WLPs are one of the coolest python species. They are one of my favorites for sure. Congrats on a very cool project.

Ryan Young


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## Bushman (Nov 28, 2013)

That's a good photo of a fine looking specimen Ryan. The iridescence is beautiful.
What are they like to keep in captivity?


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## TrueBlue (Nov 28, 2013)

They are not to bad. As with most species some are calm some are not.


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## No-two (Nov 28, 2013)

Certainly something I've admired for sometime. Pretty cool animals. I'd like one like that Ryan.


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## baker (Nov 28, 2013)

Excellent to hear. Was only just told on the weekend by a friend that these where being legally held, good to hear they will eventually become available. They look like quite nice species, might have to look into them in the future. 
Cheers Cameron


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## Norm (Nov 28, 2013)

Where are they from? I've seen them before but don't know much about them.


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## congo_python (Nov 28, 2013)

Nice can't wait till they are available to the Hobby, Ryan that light one is spectacular.


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## Ramsayi (Nov 28, 2013)

Be interested in the story behind them.


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 28, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Be interested in the story behind them.



Interesting indeed... I wonder if we'll ever find out. Been lots of rumours and convoluted stories about them, but no-one I know has ever set sight on animals of this species in collections in Oz for 20 years. Strange how these things turn up out of the blue...

Jamie


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## wokka (Nov 28, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Interesting indeed... I wonder if we'll ever find out. Been lots of rumours and convoluted stories about them, but no-one I know has ever set sight on animals of this species in collections in Oz for 20 years. Strange how these things turn up out of the blue...
> 
> Jamie


I saw them a couple of weeks ago Jamie. I expected them to be a bit more flighty but they appeared to be relatively quiet. I'll tell you the story next time I see you but they are legally on paper.


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## Sel (Nov 28, 2013)

They are gorgeous Pythons


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## Jeffa (Nov 28, 2013)

WOW! Great news for the hobby. How many snakes has your friend got Trueblue? Please let us know the story of how we finally got these guys into captivity. Did it have anything to do with the same herper who had a pair although suspected both males?
Awesome news and congrats to your mate. (might look at a pair when they are ready).


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## champagne (Nov 28, 2013)

Now just need someone to come forward with a pair of prasinus....


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 28, 2013)

Just when I think my python collection is almost complete.


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## Djbowker (Jan 18, 2014)

And if someone could come forth with some Boelen's, that'd be neat too.


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## RedFox (Jan 18, 2014)

Djbowker said:


> And if someone could come forth with some Boelen's, that'd be neat too.



I hope that never happens. Stunning python but judging by the captive efforts overseas I would seriously doubt the legality over it. The chances of someone having got them before amnesty and kept them alive until now are slim at best. 

I would hate to see such an endangered python taken from the wild and smuggled over here.


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## longqi (Jan 18, 2014)

Be interesting to see when gold phase end up in Australia????







Lovely snakes
Make waters look pretty ordinary


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## dragondragon (Jan 18, 2014)

longqi said:


> Be interesting to see when gold phase end up in Australia????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are some nice snakes longii


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## Jeffa (Mar 18, 2014)

Bump. Any update how, when and where these guys are going. would also love to hear the history aswell.

cheers


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 18, 2014)

I'm sure you will get very little (accurate) information on the origin or history of these snakes...

Jamie


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## insitu (Mar 19, 2014)

not much chop IMO! the other stuff he's got is better


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## BARRAMUNDI (Mar 19, 2014)

This will be an interesting thread as it this story develops.......ie origin/history/2 males/amnesty (cough cough) etc etc......

Either way, very cool and I love em, look forward to them being bred in numbers quite soon by the looks.......


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## insitu (Mar 19, 2014)

these animals have nothing to do with the 2 males declared on amnesty, there was no dodgy paper work the permits were handed to the owner by NPWS, their here legally


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## longqi (Mar 19, 2014)

insitu said:


> these animals have nothing to do with the 2 males declared on amnesty, there was no dodgy paper work the permits were handed to the owner by NPWS, their here legally



So the real story of how they ended up in private hands will be an interesting one
..............
PS... they are wonderful snakes
Absolute pleasures to play with
Make top of the line water pythons look pretty ordinary


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## BARRAMUNDI (Mar 19, 2014)

insitu said:


> these animals have nothing to do with the 2 males declared on amnesty, there was no dodgy paper work the permits were handed to the owner by NPWS, their here legally



Can you confirm what state NPWS?????? awesome development if what you suggest is true.......


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## insitu (Mar 19, 2014)

longqi said:


> Make top of the line water pythons look pretty ordinary



would have to disagree, waters look fairly ordinary, so do these, "Oooo they have a white lip" honestly???? 

the reason they are of interest has little to do with their looks and more to do with this hobby's ability to see dollar signs from a new species into the hobby, exotic chondro and jag breeders would spit on a white lip if it was here previously for any length of time as they do with waters already! 




BARRAMUNDI said:


> Can you confirm what state NPWS??????



I can yes, but im not going too!! its not my story to sell


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## BARRAMUNDI (Mar 19, 2014)

lol, fair enough.....


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## solar 17 (Mar 19, 2014)

Never ceases to amaze me how this hobby snipes itself all the time, if someones not on the front row(in the know) lets throw doubts out there (in public), it didn't happen, its wild caught or its smuggled,lets just enjoy it (the reptile industry) if someone wants to treat it purely as a hobby, thats ok if someone wants to earn a buck "WHO CARES" as long as they treat their animals well...a lot of ppl playing the man and not the ball here, IMO, lets just enjoy our industry. solar 17 ~B~


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## TrueBlue (Mar 19, 2014)

I have seen and held legal paper work from two different states that prove these animals are 100% legal. Sceptics every where.


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## creaturesofhabit (Mar 19, 2014)

This hobby has really turned into a episode of home and away! Who cares how these white lipped pythons got here and who brought them in, if you don't like the look of them don't buy one simple as that. Personally waters are my favorite and the only reason i would want a white lip is to see how different they are from the Australian water python,but I won't be forking out the cash for a white lip until they are affordable like rough scaled pythons are now.i can wait


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## paultheo (Mar 20, 2014)

you guys are like a group of girls fighting over what the best barbie doll is, like them or not they are here to stay so lets not make this another long winded whine like the Jag issue, we are all in this hobby because of our love for these creatures and if they are legal then i for one am glad that they will be available to people like you and me.

the issue of price is a moot point -we all know they will be big biccies until more people breed them and the price drops just like roughies and jags. those of us that have been in the hobby for a while have seen all this before and no doubt we will see it occur time and again as more and more morphs show up ie, paradox north westerns, pibald spotteds, zebras,etc,etc. at least these are a new to the hobby and not just a color variation


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 20, 2014)

Any scepticism I may show has nothing to do with whether I believe they (or any other desirable species) should or should not be in captivity. I see no reason why any species on Australian soil, in any state, territory or offshore island (and you can include the Torres Strait islands in that) should not be permitted to be collected in suitable numbers to allow introduction into the trade. Carefully (note that word) managed collection of these cryptic and elusive creatures will only take the most obvious animals, and leave many more behind. Hence I'm not making any judgement whatsoever of the individuals involved.

My comment purely relates to the "sudden" appearance of the species, and the secrecy that seems to surround the manner in which that happened. I can't recall if they've ever been found on the Australian mainland - if they were found in WA you can count them out as a pet species. We all know of (and supported) the effort and time Gavin Bedford put into his Oenpelli project, and there hasn't been an amnesty in Oz for nearly 20 years, so it is reasonable to expect that any new arrival into the hobby is cause for curiosity, that's all.

I'm always pleased when the pointless restrictions on the taking/keeping of native species are overcome to the point of allowing new species into the trade.

Jamie


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## AUSHERP (Mar 20, 2014)

If they were collected in Australia on permit that is fantastic news, these things are always hush hush until the last minute. The full story would definitely be an interesting read.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Mar 20, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Any scepticism I may show has nothing to do with whether I believe they (or any other desirable species) should or should not be in captivity. I see no reason why any species on Australian soil, in any state, territory or offshore island (and you can include the Torres Strait islands in that) should not be permitted to be collected in suitable numbers to allow introduction into the trade. Carefully (note that word) managed collection of these cryptic and elusive creatures will only take the most obvious animals, and leave many more behind. Hence I'm not making any judgement whatsoever of the individuals involved.
> 
> My comment purely relates to the "sudden" appearance of the species, and the secrecy that seems to surround the manner in which that happened. I can't recall if they've ever been found on the Australian mainland - if they were found in WA you can count them out as a pet species. We all know of (and supported) the effort and time Gavin Bedford put into his Oenpelli project, and there hasn't been an amnesty in Oz for nearly 20 years, so it is reasonable to expect that any new arrival into the hobby is cause for curiosity, that's all.
> 
> ...



Very well summed up Jamie.........As said previously I am excited about these and their story ie collection permit.........


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## champagne (Mar 20, 2014)

It would be nice to know 100%, if or how they were collected on permit... might open some doors for other species.


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## -Peter (Mar 20, 2014)

Pseudechis papuanis from Sabai Is. on the books. Now that would be exciting.


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## longqi (Mar 21, 2014)

-Peter said:


> Pseudechis papuanis from Sabai Is. on the books. Now that would be exciting.



But of much more limited appeal I think
Much smaller percentage of snake owners have vens

White lips are stunning animals
Easy to care for
Very docile compared to many waters


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 21, 2014)

I'm pretty sure that if White Lips were discovered on the mainland, the Museum in the state/territory in which they were found would publish the fact, and claim the specimens for further work, DNA testing etc, they would not be given to private individuals to introduce into the pet trade - remember the kerfuffle surrounding Peter Krauss and his Oenpellis - the only person ever to breed them in captivity had them confiscated and they were consigned to eventual miserable deaths in the NT.

Forgive me for persisting with this, but I am pretty familiar with the way these bureaucracies work, and I can't see the need for secrecy about the process unless privilege has been extended to some and it has been decided by both sides to stay "mum" about it. I can perfectly understand the need to maintain the privacy of the individuals involved. There may be a perfectly OK explanation, but so far it seems odd to me. As someone who is probably more interested in the politics of wildlife keeping and is familiar with the extraordinary efforts individuals have to go through to collect anything from the wild rather than actually maintaining a collection these days, the process is of interest to me.

Once again, I can only say I support any introduction of native species into the "trade," but bureaucracies work in very strange ways very much related to the individuals who hold power at the time. Who would have thought that in WA, where up until 10 years ago, the taking of one reptile from the wild was regarded as a heinous crime against conservation, the legal taking of Stimson's and SW Carpets has been allowed by licensed individuals for over 10 years now, long after there were enough in the "system" to satisfy captive breeding needs?

Jamie


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## AUSHERP (Mar 21, 2014)

I completely agree Jamie, the politics and beurocrocies surrounding these very "grey areas" always interest me as well. It reminds me of Jags and Leatherbacks leaglly papered as spilota and vitticeps but where did they come from?


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## insitu (Mar 21, 2014)

yeah thats just a mystery no one will ever solve right there!

as for the white lips its no secret its just not my story to tell, perhaps one day when people stop whinging about someone else having them and not them and NPWS phones die down from complaints the real story will be openly discussed


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## AUSHERP (Mar 21, 2014)

I think everybody is more interested in the fact that photos of exotic reptiles have surfaced as legally papered animals and the promise they will be available in the hobby one day soon rather than the fact they don't have them. If I was involved in the project I probably wouldn't have posted pics unaccompanied by the details surrounding it. Not criticising just explaining. 
As i said before it will be an awesome read....


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## champagne (Mar 22, 2014)

They were collected from an Australian island....


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## AUSHERP (Mar 22, 2014)

It was omly a matter of time before they popped up.
Pretty exciting regardless


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## cement (Mar 22, 2014)

I'll take two. 1M..1F.

Heres hoping those single females are expensive:lol:


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## eipper (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi all,

The snakes in question are stunning. Just curious does everyone know where the snakes in their enclosures are from.

I see little point in questioning how, why and whom. Instead take the people for their word and enjoy the fact that we all will be able to keep another sp of Python

cheers
scott


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## Radar (Mar 23, 2014)

longqi said:


> That is why the scenario I put up seems to me to be the only way it could possibly have been done



Not that I care where they've come from, but you've missed the QLD based confiscation and re-homing of poached/unlicensed wildlife. There are semi-regularly unlicensed snakes/crocs/turtles confiscated and put on paper then handed to demonstrators etc in QLD - seems valid that a pair might have been collected off license on a FNQ island and seized.


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## OzGecko (Mar 23, 2014)

Radar said:


> Not that I care where they've come from, but you've missed the QLD based confiscation and re-homing of poached/unlicensed wildlife. There are semi-regularly unlicensed snakes/crocs/turtles confiscated and put on paper then handed to demonstrators etc in QLD - seems valid that a pair might have been collected off license on a FNQ island and seized.



Is that how a Pernatty Knob-tailed Gecko popped up recently in QLD? Strange if that's the way it works in QLD. I wouldn't honestly think they'd do that with high profile (or rare in captivity/wild, however you want to take it) species. I would expect that anything like a White lipped Python would go to some sort of zoo/park possibly even outside of QLD if they were confiscated.


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## longqi (Mar 24, 2014)

Radar said:


> Not that I care where they've come from, but you've missed the QLD based confiscation and re-homing of poached/unlicensed wildlife. There are semi-regularly unlicensed snakes/crocs/turtles confiscated and put on paper then handed to demonstrators etc in QLD - seems valid that a pair might have been collected off license on a FNQ island and seized.



I understand that part pretty well
Had a Qld demonstrators licence for years
Never heard of anything rare coming up for grabs


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## Ramsayi (Mar 24, 2014)

eipper said:


> I see little point in questioning how, why and whom. Instead take the people for their word and enjoy the fact that we all will be able to keep another sp of Python



What's wrong with wanting to know the story of how they came to be on license? Don't think anyone on here has asked why or whom just how.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 24, 2014)

Ramsayi said:


> What's wrong with wanting to know the story of how they came to be on license? Don't think anyone on here has asked why or whom just how.



For me, that's exactly the only question that interests me - the species, and who managed the mechanics of it are of very little interest to me at all. Once the species is on a list, I wonder how long before the orange ones surface in Australia...

Jamie


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## colubridking (Mar 24, 2014)

Awesome, good to have another species in captivity!


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## eipper (Mar 24, 2014)

So Mark and Pia can you tell me the exact origins of all your reptiles and how they ended up in captivity. I am curious and feel that because I want to know that's a perfectly good reason for you to tell me.

I could not answer your question even if I wanted to, I don't know. 

Cheers
scott


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 24, 2014)

I think it's a point of interest to many of the old-timers because we all know you can't just front up and say to the state authority "look, I just caught these Hoop Snakes and I'd like to keep them to breed them for the trade..." You'd have them confiscated and there'd be a prosecution to follow... unless you had a permit to collect, and in Qld that's almost an impossibility for private individuals. When a new species, which possibly doesn't even exist on Aussie soil, arrives complete with official paperwork in someone's collection, of course it's a matter of great curiosity for those of us who know the systems, and who've spent decades trying to get the bureaucratic "dead hands" off our hobby. If I went to the authorities in Qld and said I wanted to collect (or had collected) some V. keithhornei to breed and sell into the trade, what do you reckon the response would be?

It's only natural that the fanfare with which their arrival was announced will spike great curiosity among the experienced sector of the keeping community. Some people are only interested in the ends, but many people are also interested in the means to those ends - it's human nature. The process is the point of curiosity.

Jamie


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## TrueBlue (Mar 24, 2014)

Becuase of the amount of people trying to cause trouble over the legality of these animals by whinging to QLD parks, they have looked right into the matter and they are satisfied that they are legal animals.


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## DarwinBrianT (Mar 24, 2014)

Funny how people go out of their way to make something a mystery and then get up set when people ask the who, what, when, where and why's. I thought facebook had the rights to that. lol 
Anyway I'd still pay for one. lol


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## TrueBlue (Mar 24, 2014)

No mystery and no one in the know is upset, just amused about the try hards trying to cause trouble, its just not any ones business. Not my story to tell either.
There are a number of old school herpers out there that have very little at all to do with the herp scene these days because of the direction it has gone with jags and all the cross bred rubbish etc. Some of these guys have been keeping special stuff for years that no one has a clue about. Why??? because its no ones business but their own. Simple.


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## Newhere (Mar 24, 2014)

I hope we never find out where they come from, would be a shame if there was only a small population left in aus and poachers found out where to find em, keep it all secret I reckon and let them have their privacy


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## junglepython2 (Mar 29, 2014)

I dare say the chances of these snakes having an Australian origin are next to nil and there is no need to worry about remote islands being poached.


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## champagne (Mar 29, 2014)

They are from Australian origin... Maybe more project would be made public if people didnt start commenting that everything is smuggled when they don't know the full story.


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## solar 17 (Mar 29, 2014)

TrueBlue said:


> No mystery and no one in the know is upset, just amused about the try hards trying to cause trouble, its just not any ones business. Not my story to tell either.
> There are a number of old school herpers out there that have very little at all to do with the herp scene these days because of the direction it has gone with jags and all the cross bred rubbish etc. Some of these guys have been keeping special stuff for years that no one has a clue about. Why??? because its no ones business but their own. Simple.


This post hit the nail on the head. solar 17 ~B~


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## junglepython2 (Mar 29, 2014)

champagne said:


> They are from Australian origin... Maybe more project would be made public if people didnt start commenting that everything is smuggled when they don't know the full story.



I never said they were smuggled. If these ones are of Australian origin (with a genuine aussie locale which I find very hard to believe) that would be quite remarkable as I didn't think there were even any official records of them being here. So great news if true. Either way you would imagine the legality of them would be air tight for them to have pictures released. Regardless of their origin poaching won't be an issue as it would be easier and cheaper for 'others' to smuggle more onto the books rather then poach once they have been distributed to enough keepers. Which was my main point.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 29, 2014)

TrueBlue said:


> No mystery and no one in the know is upset, just amused about the try hards trying to cause trouble, its just not any ones business. Not my story to tell either.
> There are a number of old school herpers out there that have very little at all to do with the herp scene these days because of the direction it has gone with jags and all the cross bred rubbish etc. Some of these guys have been keeping special stuff for years that no one has a clue about. Why??? because its no ones business but their own. Simple.



With all due respect TB (and I mean that sincerely), if WLPs had been in collections "for (enough) years" they would surely have been more available by now. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the last amnesty was in 1997 (17 years ago) and the only states that allow legal collecting are WA & the NT, They are certainly not on the WA list and have never been found there, and I'd bet both my balls they weren't found in the NT. If they were from stock originally declared in the last amnesty the original snakes must be in wheelchairs by now. NSW did allow some species to be included on the list of permitted species without sighting those animals, so at least a few keepers got permits for species they didn't have, and weren't known in collections, in anticipation of being able to get them once they had the licence. If they've had them for 17 years and been breeding them, they must be coming out of their ears by now.

I don't believe you should suggest that those who are curious about the provenence of these animals are trying to "cause trouble" just because it is a matter of great interest to those of us who know how hard it is to get new species into the trade. I think it's also pretty reasonable for you to expect this speculation when you made your first post about these animals. As far as I know, WLPs haven't actually been "officially" found on any of the Australian islands in the Torres Strait at this point in time either.

I reiterate that I'm very happy that any new species comes into the trade, by any means - at the end of the day it doesn't make any difference conservation-wise - but I don't think you should expect it NOT to be a matter of interest to at least some of us.

Jamie


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## Reptiles78 (Mar 29, 2014)

Very stunning python


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## insitu (Mar 29, 2014)

in all due respect i know people want to know the story but we dont own the animals and out of respect for the owner i dont feel its up to us to tell his story, the pictures were posted here and on another site and NPWS were flooded with complaints and "tip offs" for animals they knew all about very well so the owner is now not bothering to make them public anymore, simple as that! it would be the same as me visiting your house Jamie and then going and telling everyone on APS what animals you keep where they are located in your house and how many locks you have on the door because someone was just "curious" its not our place to tell


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 29, 2014)

> in all due respect i know people want to know the story but we dont own the animals and out of respect for the owner i dont feel its up to us to tell his story, the pictures were posted here and on another site and NPWS were flooded with complaints and "tip offs" for animals they knew all about very well so the owner is now not bothering to make them public anymore, simple as that! it would be the same as me visiting your house Jamie and then going and telling everyone on APS what animals you keep where they are located in your house and how many locks you have on the door because someone was just "curious" its not our place to tell



To be fair, we all understand the need for privacy, and respectfully, that isn't the issue. It's not of any interest to me who has them, my curiosity simply covers the "how." There's a big difference between passing out people's private details and describing the mechanics of how a species that hasn't been available for decades suddenly comes into the trade. It looks to me like the initial release of information was to whet the appetites of those who "must have" - it certainly helps to bump up the prices people are prepared to pay to be amongst the first cabs off the rank with a new species. And don't get me wrong there either - there's nothing wrong with a commercial move in that direction either.

Jamie


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## Jeffa (Mar 29, 2014)

insitu said:


> in all due respect i know people want to know the story but we dont own the animals and out of respect for the owner i dont feel its up to us to tell his story, the pictures were posted here and on another site and NPWS were flooded with complaints and "tip offs" for animals they knew all about very well so the owner is now not bothering to make them public anymore, simple as that! it would be the same as me visiting your house Jamie and then going and telling everyone on APS what animals you keep where they are located in your house and how many locks you have on the door because someone was just "curious" its not our place to tell



Chill out mate. we can all agree that it is fantastic that this species will be available to the hobby in time. And as Jamie has posted before, it is human nature to speculate and want to know the story (can't wait to hear it too)! until then people, speculate away.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Mar 29, 2014)

I think Jamie has summed up the curiosity or skepticism of most posters........


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## DanN (Mar 30, 2014)

I must admit that I also don’t see the problem with Jaime’s questions, and fail to understand the reasoning behind the secrecy if everything is indeed above-board. In fact, not a single person has posted a comment that disagrees with the availability of these animals within the hobby?

The “how” about the origin and importation of these snakes into Australia is of interest, and there is nothing wrong with that. As I understand there are three possibilities:

1)	They were declared in the amnesty and kept hidden until now. Obviously this is unlikely to be the original individuals, but it may include their offspring,

2)	They were leaked into the private hobby scene through the zoo trade. This would technically not be legal, because zoos in Australia can trade with private individuals only if the animals are already commercially available (e.g., some exotic birds). However, zoos cannot trade in species that private individuals are restricted from importing themselves (in this case, exotic reptiles). So this would rule out the WLPs, and

3)	They are naturally occurring in Australia and were obtained via a collection permit. 

The last point is, for me, the most interesting. It is safe to say that the snakes did not come from WA or the NT, so QLD is the only option. Naturally, it is unlikely that they occur on Cape York, leaving the Torres Straight as the only real alternative.

However, I tend to agree with Jaime that if these snakes were indeed present on the islands then the QLD Museum would know about it. Despite lots of fieldwork in the Torres Straight they have never been found. The habitat on the neighboring New Guinea mainland is also not suitable and WLPs are not found near the coast (decreasing the likelihood that they would be on Saibai or Boigu). Obviously things can go undetected, and it is very difficult to prove absence, but this only strengthens the academic interest in knowing where the snakes came from. 

This last scenario would be a little strange because any movement of plants and animals from the Torres Straight requires a quarantine permit from DAFF. I understand that DAFF have no knowledge of WLPs being moved onto the mainland from Torres Straight. Nevertheless, sometimes mistakes are made, and perhaps QPWS issued collection permits and forgot about the DAFF requirement? Who knows, or really cares?

Sure, I don’t believe it is anybody’s “right” to know where they came from, and I do respect the owners’ right to divulge that information as they see fit. However, regardless of the answer, I don’t see any problem (and nor am I surprised) that there is considerable curiosity. The species may indeed be completely legal on paper, but it's not the chance that they were brought in illegally that creates the interest. There are many people, like me, who have little interest in the hobby, but still have a considerable desire to know where they came from for personal, professional and academic reasons. I think that is all Jaime is trying to say.


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## Rlpreston (Mar 30, 2014)

My issue with this bickering lies in the insinuation that the 'old school' don't want the attention (which, being that they are 'old school', they must surely have known would happen) or curiosity that comes with making these things public knowledge. If that were the case, why allow the pictures to be shared, along with information suggesting that that are being/have been reproduced and will be released to the wider hobby?


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 30, 2014)

DanN said:


> I must admit that I also don’t see the problem with Jaime’s questions, and fail to understand the reasoning behind the secrecy if everything is indeed above-board. In fact, not a single person has posted a comment that disagrees with the availability of these animals within the hobby?
> 
> The “how” about the origin and importation of these snakes into Australia is of interest, and there is nothing wrong with that. As I understand there are three possibilities:
> 
> ...



That's it in a beautiful nutshell Dan ! 

Jamie


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## wokka (Mar 30, 2014)

This sounds like a re-run of when gtps and jags come into the hobby in a big way. What poeple would like to know may well be commercially sensitive. There have been numerous arguements in the past speculating that many of the GTPs and Jags may not have originated in Australia from legal scources. I would go as far as saying that the majority have not, however they are now part of the hobby and legally kept and enjoyed by many. The WLP may well have a similiar history, although not by the current owner, and i believe that it provides further opportunity to legally aquire what was previously not available to the hobby.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 30, 2014)

The issue isn't really the same as GTPs Warwick. Although I'm sure you're correct in stating that the greatest number of GTPs in collections here originate from north of Australia, there is still a local Australian population of this single-species animal, and they have a history in collections that predates any amnesties. I don't believe that WLPs have ever been officially recorded on Australian soil, even the Australian islands in the Torres Strait. That's what makes a lot of us curious.

Jamie


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## Burnerism (Mar 30, 2014)

wokka said:


> The WLP may well have a similiar history, although not by the current owner, and i believe that it provides further opportunity to legally aquire what was previously not available to the hobby.


Just asking, are you saying the end justifys the means?


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## wokka (Mar 30, 2014)

Burnerism said:


> Just asking, are you saying the end justifys the means?


No, I am saying dont get bogged down in what MAY have happened in the past. It is more important to look to the future. As an example it is obvious that the majority of GTPs in captivity came from animals smuggled from overseas or illegally poached from wild Austrlian population. Whilst i dont support either happening , that is the past , so I think the hobby should concentrate on utilising the current GTPs which are licenced in Australkia, and move forward


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## eipper (Mar 30, 2014)

The _Morelia azurus_ is gaining acceptance now...... It is my understand that Australian viridis never have red or mauve neonates. So what happens to all the "exotics" legally held here.....in all fairness they are just as exotic as Varanus salvadorri or Morelia boeleni, Acanthophis laevis and Pseudechis rossignoili. Should we be able to keep Australasian or dare I say it exotics...... Under legal means of course?


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## insitu (Mar 30, 2014)

already do, still plenty of people keeping exotics on license from the amnesty.


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## Pilbarensis (Mar 30, 2014)

You two are just laying down the bait for people here haha (myself included)


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 30, 2014)

insitu said:


> already do, still plenty of people keeping exotics on license from the amnesty.



Actually there aren't many now - the amnesty was 17 years ago, most of those animals have expired, but of course there are a few who have bred them against the conditions of the "sunset clause" on their licences, or acquired more to keep the fibs alive...

Jamie


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## -Peter (Mar 30, 2014)

No no no, don't get involved...


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## eipper (Mar 30, 2014)

Peter, 

Both Acanthophis laevis and Pseudechis rossignoili were split away from Australian species. So by rights if they were here already in collections you should be able to keep them. As there is already a precedent set down by Morelia azurus.


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## zulu (Mar 31, 2014)

The white lipped pythons in australia will be deemed australian like the GTPs and thats it ,thank you ball boys.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 31, 2014)

zulu said:


> The white lipped pythons in australia will be deemed australian like the GTPs and thats it ,thank you ball boys.



But... I believe that any examination of museum records will reveal that, unlike Chondros, they've never been found on Australian soil, mainland or island, so the species has not been demonstrated to be Australian. The historic notion that they "might" be found on some Australian Torres Strait islands has been propagated in some non-scientific books dating from decades ago, but this has not translated into fact in the ensuing years. 

Jamie


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## zulu (Mar 31, 2014)

Dont know about the non scientific book thing ,they are listed in Harold Coggers ,the one i opened is the 83, he says northern torres straight islands ,he must have had a record or he wouldnt have included the species .
Albertisii is also in the 5th edition of coggers ,good enough for me, i dont know why people are complaining .


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 31, 2014)

Col, does he say it's an Australian Island? Don't get me wrong, if I can be proven incorrect, I'd be a just as happy man, but having come from a 30 year background in museums, I'm sceptical about "reports" if they're not backed up with specimens. Mark O'Shea in "A Guide to The Snakes of Papua New Guinea," published in the late 90s also suggests that they are "reported for Australia" on the near PNG Australian islands (and the Aussie territory comes within a few kms of the PNG mainland at one point), but what does such a "report" constitute. If a "report" is deemed enough evidence to claim it is an Australian species, then that's fine by me as far as introducing it into collections is concerned, but scientifically, no specimen... no proof.

And then there is the mystery of where has the species been for at least 17 years in collections? Consider Chondros, once a very expensive rarity and considered very difficult to breed, now freely available and within reach of most herpers, and the RSP, brought into captivity in the last 15 years and now almost in oversupply. Weird that L. albertisii hasn't had a similar history...

I don't think genuine questions should be regarded as complaints Col. I'm not complaining at all, as someone who has poked and prodded bureaucracies about these matters for decades, any addition to the species lists in Australia is welcome from my point of view, but please understand that it is my history with almost universally reluctant bureaucracies that has spiked my curiosity. To many here, it's obvious that the end justifies the means, not so for others. Being pragmatic, I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Mar 31, 2014)

Jamie, last time I spoke to Allen Greer, he informed me that there are two specimens lodged at the Museum, both supposedly from Saibai Island dating back .... I forgot now, but it was a long, long time ago . However, he also mentioned that the labels were poorly written with a pencil and Allen had doubts that they were actually collected on Saibai and if so, someone might have brought them over from PNG. The island is a stone throw away from PNG and there always has been a lot of boat traffic between the two land forms.

cheers
Michael


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## Bushman (Mar 31, 2014)

Interesting discussion guys. For those interested in reading more on the topic, there's an old thread with more on the subject : http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/anyone-keep-breed-white-lipped-111371/


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 31, 2014)

Waterrat said:


> Jamie, last time I spoke to Allen Greer, he informed me that there are two specimens lodged at the Museum, both supposedly from Saibai Island dating back .... I forgot now, but it was a long, long time ago . However, he also mentioned that the labels were poorly written with a pencil and Allen had doubts that they were actually collected on Saibai and if so, someone might have brought them over from PNG. The island is a stone throw away from PNG and there always has been a lot of boat traffic between the two land forms.
> 
> cheers
> Michael



Thanks for that Michael. I'm familiar with the old paper/pencil labels in museum collections! In WA where many specimens were collected, labelled and thrown into drums of formalin in the field, the subsequent travel overland a few thousand ks did wonders for the paper labels! Many of the old specimens were clearly mislabelled or mistakenly labelled, hence for example Antaresia perthensis. A couple of the very old books indicated, based on the name only, that they were found in the south west region of WA.

Anyway, I'm sure some of you will be relieved to know that I think I've made my points in this thread . 

Jamie


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## beach (Mar 31, 2014)

l asked my father in law to check for me late last week and he has just got back to me, Queensland Museum does have two specimens of the White Lipped Python, collection point is listed as "Saibai Island" along with Cogger that would be enough for most ppl l believe. Beach


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## Bushman (Mar 31, 2014)

That's correct, according to the latest edition of Harold Cogger's 'Reptiles and Amphibians of Australia' (2014), which includes White-lipped Python as _Leiopython albertisii.

_"Australian specimens, with reported occurrence on Australia's most northerly Torres Strait islands, are *grey brown*, the young sometimes with darker heads."

"Distribution: Reported only from the northernmost 'mud' islands of Torres Strait, lying just off the New Guinea mainland. Extra-limital in southern New Guinea. The relationship of this form to the illustrated smaller, brown, black-headed form from northern New Guinea is uncertain."

The pics posted up by the original poster of this thread, seem to be Australian specimens, according to the description given above.


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## zulu (Mar 31, 2014)

beach said:


> l asked my father in law to check for me late last week and he has just got back to me, Queensland Museum does have two specimens of the White Lipped Python, collection point is listed as "Saibai Island" along with Cogger that would be enough for most ppl l believe. Beach



Yeh cogger didnt pluck them out of the sky ,a report from 2013 of the bioderversity says there is 12 known reptiles and that they have not been properly surveyed ,they expect emerald tree monitors would be found as they are common on the nearby australian island of boigu .White lipped pythons could also be on boigu.
Reptiles are low priority things with wings getting all the attention ,even in the ADI site near St Marys they had only identified about 8 reptiles before half was built on,just low on the priority list ,and someone might find something that stalls developement.


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## eipper (Mar 31, 2014)

Beach,
Who is your father in law? I want to know because I am curious....that should be reason enough


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## BARRAMUNDI (Mar 31, 2014)

Best thread in months, about time there was a notable, constructive and informative thread to discuss......some awesome insights.......

cheers guys


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## AUSHERP (Mar 31, 2014)

Sure beats "what do I feed my beardie?"

It wouldn't be unlikely the white lips have a colony on Saibai or Boigu, being so close to PNG mainland. Though it wouldn't necessarily have to be a colony, even storm standed individuals would satisfy the definition.


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## zulu (Mar 31, 2014)

There is rainforrest and woodland patches ,the island is around 15 ks long, python species there are likely to be mainly nocturnal . Would be interesting to see what a long study could find with reptiles generally.


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## Shotta (Mar 31, 2014)

is it true that WLP's need higher humidity and lower basking temps?


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## insitu (Mar 31, 2014)

Shotta said:


> is it true that WLP's need higher humidity and lower basking temps?



could be, prasinus does but i dont know a lot about the ecology of white lips at all


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## longqi (Apr 1, 2014)

Ive kept them exactly the same as I kept waters and they bred
temp about 28c and a bowl big enough to immerse in
they were black southerns
never bred golds


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 1, 2014)

Just an interesting note, as I reflect on the development of this thread - those who are obviously interested in adding this species to their collections are furiously arguing for the "Australian territory" case, using a great deal of supposition to support their position (the two voucher specimens notwithstanding...), whereas those like me who don't have a great deal of interest in the species have probably been a bit more objective throughout the 7 pages so far...

Just an observation !

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Apr 1, 2014)

Supposition and assumption. 
Has anyone here been on Saibai, Boigu (and since V. prasinus has been mentioned) Moa and Badu islands? I mean personally.


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## zulu (Apr 1, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Just an interesting note, as I reflect on the development of this thread - those who are obviously interested in adding this species to their collections are furiously arguing for the "Australian territory" case, using a great deal of supposition to support their position (the two voucher specimens notwithstanding...), whereas those like me who don't have a great deal of interest in the species have probably been a bit more objective throughout the 7 pages so far...
> 
> Just an observation !
> 
> Jamie



You left out the obvious that they were in coggers,theres nothing furious at all ,just getting some facts straight.
Might add there is not a great deal of supposition ,the museum records are concrete or Harold Cogger wouldnt use them ,they have to pass tests to be included .


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## Waterrat (Apr 1, 2014)

About everything you want to know about Saibai Island - report 2013. Check the Appendix D, WLP is not even predicted.

http://www.tsra.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/4502/Saibai_Biodiversity_Profile_January_2013.pdf


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## saltuarius (Apr 1, 2014)

Hey Guys,

I like this thread alot and have had this discussion with many people over the years. I have personally done herpetological survey work on Boigu Island. Although I was able to locate quite a few specimens of V. prasinus there were no WLP. I undertook extensive consultation with the local Rangers and transient PNG residents on Boigu about what they both have encountered on the PNG side and on Boigu Is. The easiest way to do this was to sit down with both groups separately and go through pictures. The PNG residents all indicated that they have seen WLP's in PNG only and have never encountered them on Boigu. This was confirmed after consultation with the Rangers.
A couple of colleagues who have worked extensively in the TS surveying for reptiles and collecting snakes for venom research also confirm that they have not, nor have they met any indigenous people from the TS who have ever seen a WLP in Australian Territory. I admit that there is potential on both Boigu and Saibai due to the close proximity of these islands with the southern coast of PNG but so far only scrubbies and water pythons have been found. I am comfortable in my opinion that they do not occur naturally in Australian Territory and although rafting over from PNG might be a natural event i don't doubt that it may have occured or does occur from time to time but i doubt that it has ever resulted in sustained colonisation.

Hope this helps a bit. 

Jason


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## TrueBlue (Apr 1, 2014)

Jamie, I wasnt talking about the people that are just curious about these animals causing trouble, I was talking about the people ringing QLD parks and complaining about them etc.

As has been said its not my story to tell and they are considered legal animals by the authorities, I cant see the problem.


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## longqi (Apr 1, 2014)

saltuarius said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I like this thread alot and have had this discussion with many people over the years. I have personally done herpetological survey work on Boigu Island. Although I was able to locate quite a few specimens of V. prasinus there were no WLP. I undertook extensive consultation with the local Rangers and transient PNG residents on Boigu about what they both have encountered on the PNG side and on Boigu Is. The easiest way to do this was to sit down with both groups separately and go through pictures. The PNG residents all indicated that they have seen WLP's in PNG only and have never encountered them on Boigu. This was confirmed after consultation with the Rangers.
> A couple of colleagues who have worked extensively in the TS surveying for reptiles and collecting snakes for venom research also confirm that they have not, nor have they met any indigenous people from the TS who have ever seen a WLP in Australian Territory. I admit that there is potential on both Boigu and Saibai due to the close proximity of these islands with the southern coast of PNG but so far only scrubbies and water pythons have been found. I am comfortable in my opinion that they do not occur naturally in Australian Territory and although rafting over from PNG might be a natural event i don't doubt that it may have occured or does occur from time to time but i doubt that it has ever resulted in sustained colonisation.
> ...




Interesting
I have never heard of or seen white lips anywhere near the PNG coast close to Aus
That is NOT a definitive answer because my experience is more in Papua than PNG


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## solar 17 (Apr 1, 2014)

Two points about Saibai that would make more possible WLP's being on Saibai if not native is that its so close to PNG on a clear night from SI you can see the glow of TV's on the PNG mainland and last but not least PNG and SI have "food trading rights" with the local ppl going backwards and forwards in small boats with food alll perfectly legal. solar 17 ~B~


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 1, 2014)

zulu said:


> You left out the obvious that they were in coggers,theres nothing furious at all ,just getting some facts straight.
> Might add there is not a great deal of supposition ,the museum records are concrete or Harold Cogger wouldnt use them ,they have to pass tests to be included .



I wasn't going to stay involved in this thread (sigh ) but I'm tempted to add a bit more... Col, I've spent over 30 years in Museums and I know how information can be less than accurate at times, for any number of reasons. What "tests" do they have to pass to be included as fact? The first RSP collected for the WA Museum by Ron Johnston spent the first three years in the collection identified as a Children's Python. In the end, labels are only as good as the person attaching them to an animal.

TB, thanks for that - I'm certainly not the sort of person who would want to contact the "authorities" about something like this. I did have a bit to do with the NSW NPWS investigators after my unfortunate exposure to Neil Simpson, but that was to assist them in their investigation of this creep (he pleaded guilty and was convicted of some of his crimes, so I think I can mention his name as a warning here, although he goes by dozens of other names). Good luck to anybody who is instrumental in adding any new species into the system.

As far as WLPs on the Australian Torres Strait islands go, I understand that Water Pythons are endemic to those islands mentioned, so it is highly unlikely that a similar-sized, same-niche occupying python such as the WLP would occur sympatrically with Water Pythons on the same islands. It just doesn't happen that way.

Jamie


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## zulu (Apr 1, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I wasn't going to stay involved in this thread (sigh ) but I'm tempted to add a bit more... Col, I've spent over 30 years in Museums and I know how information can be less than accurate at times, for any number of reasons. What "tests" do they have to pass to be included as fact? The first RSP collected for the WA Museum by Ron Johnston spent the first three years in the collection identified as a Children's Python. In the end, labels are only as good as the person attaching them to an animal.
> 
> TB, thanks for that - I'm certainly not the sort of person who would want to contact the "authorities" about something like this. I did have a bit to do with the NSW NPWS investigators after my unfortunate exposure to Neil Simpson, but that was to assist them in their investigation of this creep (he pleaded guilty and was convicted of some of his crimes, so I think I can mention his name as a warning here, although he goes by dozens of other names). Good luck to anybody who is instrumental in adding any new species into the system.
> 
> ...



Jamie your saying that Harold Cogger who is a leading herpetologist just includes species into his book without doing data quality tests ,find that hard to believe.
Online they have heaps of data quality tests and its coming from the leading institutions ,surely formally trained herpetologists would look at it and sift through and enter it etc.
Cogger is going to have proven data sets to include species into his book or he might as well go work at pizza hut.
A page with an emerald tree monitor from queensland museum lots of Data quality tests .http://biocache.ala.org.au/occurrence/9003554e-11d7-4258-8d7c-39c6b121bfd8


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## -Peter (Apr 1, 2014)

A large amount of species have been described from a single poorly preserved holotype including a large number of Australian reptiles.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 2, 2014)

zulu said:


> Jamie your saying that Harold Cogger who is a leading herpetologist just includes species into his book without doing data quality tests ,find that hard to believe.
> Online they have heaps of data quality tests and its coming from the leading institutions ,surely formally trained herpetologists would look at it and sift through and enter it etc.
> Cogger is going to have proven data sets to include species into his book or he might as well go work at pizza hut.
> A page with an emerald tree monitor from queensland museum lots of Data quality tests .http://biocache.ala.org.au/occurrence/9003554e-11d7-4258-8d7c-39c6b121bfd8



There are no "tests" for data such as this other than the labelled specimen. Did he go up to those islands himself to confirm the data - that would be the only way of "testing" it? Scientists rely on accurate labelling in cases like this when they don't collect material themselves, and especially in very old specimens, that labelling can be very unreliable. Up until the 1960s, big field expeditions were manned by all sorts of people, oten employed locally. Many of those people were unaware of the importance of assembling accurate data and keeping it with the appropriate specimen, they just caught, killed and sometime later (often at night in camp) would label and fix the specimens - sometimes hundreds of them - in drums of preservative. Labelling, especially from long ago, can be highly inaccurate. 

You would think that an Antaresia species named "perthensis" would come from the Perth region, but it doesn't come within cooee of the Perth region. It was named because of misinformation about the origin of the type specimen kept with the specimen when the taxonomists of the day classified it. It happened then, because the only "test" is the data on the label. That is the only information Cogger could use, unless there were further specimens collected in the interim... and that hasn't happened, despite significant work being done on those islands.

I should also add, Col, that there is a HUGE amount of difference in the data collected in 2004 (your example) and that which was collected even in the 1990s, with the use of such devices as GPSs now almost mandatory. We know these days what's important. Does anyone know when the two specimens on which the "Australian territory" claims have been made were collected?

This is way off-topic now, I know, but it's an interesting discussion. I'm not relating this debate in any way to the original subjects of this thread...

Jamie


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## zulu (Apr 2, 2014)

No good telling me jamie ,you contact Harold Cogger and let him know your concerns ,he may be able to improve his practices if you coach him.

There has been no significant reptile surveys undertaken on saibai island according to the 2013 Torress straight island report and thats the most signifcant island around 15 ks long containing areas of woodland swamp and rainforest.

There will be far more than 11 species of reptile found on that island in the future as long as the environment remains reasonably intact.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 2, 2014)

You've got the wrong end of the stick Col, all I've been suggesting is that the info is only as good as the collectors, and collectors of 50 or 100 years ago weren't as reliable as they are today. It is disingenuous of you to suggest that I'm being critical of Hal Cogger, or implying that he is less than professional - I certainly am not, but just like Ludwig Glauert, Glen Storr and every other publishing taxonomist, they only put into print the info that's available with the specimen. All I have done is suggest that there are a few reasons why the info pertaining to the two specimens on which he bases his case is quite likely to be suspect, and I do that from my own museum experiences.

To me, one very significant factor is that Water Pythons are common and endemic to those islands, and it would be extremely unusual for those two species to be sympatric in such a confined area.

I'm very happy to be corrected by any evidence to the contrary, until then however, I'm sceptical.

Jamie


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## Echiopsis (Apr 2, 2014)

zulu said:


> No good telling me jamie ,you contact Harold Cogger and let him know your concerns ,he may be able to improve his practices if you coach him.
> 
> There has been no significant reptile surveys undertaken on saibai island according to the 2013 Torress straight island report and thats the most signifcant island around 15 ks long containing areas of woodland swamp and rainforest.
> 
> There will be far more than 11 species of reptile found on that island in the future as long as the environment remains reasonably intact.



Sorry zulu, you're way off base here. The data is only as good as the person who collected it and labelled the specimen. You cant possibly be suggesting that Hal Cogger personally verified the distribution of every species in Australia and associated islands? Herpotologists are human, they make mistakes and unfortunately these mistakes take years to be corrected. I'm not relating this specifically to the White Lips as I have no experience with or knowledge of them but just in a general sense regarding herpetologists, taxos, museum staff and anyone who vouchers a specimen and attaches data to it.


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## zookieboi (Apr 2, 2014)

Remind's me of a Boelen's and Boelen's are my favourite python


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## zulu (Apr 2, 2014)

Echiopsis said:


> Sorry zulu, you're way off base here. The data is only as good as the person who collected it and labelled the specimen. You cant possibly be suggesting that Hal Cogger personally verified the distribution of every species in Australia and associated islands? Herpotologists are human, they make mistakes and unfortunately these mistakes take years to be corrected. I'm not relating this specifically to the White Lips as I have no experience with or knowledge of them but just in a general sense regarding herpetologists, taxos, museum staff and anyone who vouchers a specimen and attaches data to it.



So what your saying is he just believes the data thats submitted ,thats wrong,it is scrutinised .Onley have to look at the bioderversity atlas ,there is black headed pythons from NSW in institutions but they dont pass the data quality tests


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## Echiopsis (Apr 2, 2014)

zulu said:


> So what your saying is he just believes the data thats submitted ,thats wrong,it is scrutinised .Onley have to look at the bioderversity atlas ,there is black headed pythons from NSW in institutions but they dont pass the data quality tests



You obviously aren't going to be swayed by common sense so believe what ever you want, no skin off my nose :lol: Keep in mind that a huge amount of specimens were collected by people before any modern day publisher was alive, how exactly would you verify the legitimacy of the data without going to the site and surveying yourself? You seem to believe the data is heavily scrutinised, how exactly is this done?


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 2, 2014)

Echiopsis said:


> You obviously aren't going to be swayed by common sense so believe what ever you want, no skin off my nose :lol: Keep in mind that a huge amount of specimens were collected by people before any modern day publisher was alive, how exactly would you verify the legitimacy of the data without going to the site and surveying yourself? You seem to believe the data is heavily scrutinised, how exactly is this done?



I've actually asked the same question twice before, but apparently it's a given that the data is tested beyond doubt. If my experience of herp taxonomists is anything to go by, it's quite possible that Dr Cogger himself may be sceptical of the localities of these specimens, given many decades of failure to find them on these islands subsequently. But he can only publish the data as the labels describe it, and of course if he was writing a comprehensive treatise on the reptiles of Australia, he couldn't leave them out, regardless of any scepticism he may have, because in science, personal opinion counts for nothing.

Again, how is it "scrutinised" Col?

Jamie


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## jedi_339 (Apr 2, 2014)

zulu said:


> So what your saying is he just believes the data thats submitted ,thats wrong,it is scrutinised .Onley have to look at the bioderversity atlas ,there is black headed pythons from NSW in institutions but they dont pass the data quality tests



Zulu the very link you used before, the bioatlas, has a number of records for the white lipped pythons from the QLD museum, most originating from PNG or Indonesia.
There is one entry with no locality given which may or may not be one of the two "Australian" specimens they are purported to have.

According to the "data quality tests" for most WLP's in Australian collections (notably the one specimen within the qld museum that has not originated from Indonesia or PNG) a lot are missing significant values i.e. date of collection, missing geodetic datum, decimal co-ordinates not supplied, missing name of person who identified the specimen/observation plus a whole raft of others. I think that strengthens Jamie's point about collection data.

No-one is taking shots at Cogger, but his information is still only as good as the data available within the museums collection which as Jamie has stated can at times be quite old and potentially highly inaccurate.


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## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2014)

I actually found some emails from Patric Cooper (QM) and Ross Sadlier (AM):

Hi Michael,
We don’t have any L. albertisi specimens from Torres Strait.
I think the Australian Museum may have one from Thursday Island that was donated by the Australian Customs Service but you’ll have to check on this with Ross Sadlier ([email protected]).
Cheers 

Dear Michael,
We have no Liasis albertisi registered in the museum collection from Thursday Island or any other Torres Strait islands. The specimen Patrick is referring to is registered as a Liasis mackloti.
Regard

Interesting, isn't it?

cheers
Michael


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## jedi_339 (Apr 2, 2014)

Here is the link (if it works) for the WLP's I saw a few records from the Florida museum of natural history that were labelled as (presumably originating from) Australia, once again with no co-ordinates.

You might be able to make a bit more sense of it than most Jamie.

And a second link at the bottom for the GBIF, not by any means a conclusive argument, however if you zoom in on the map the collected specimens with co-ordinates from recent history show no records from the Australian islands, but there is one record close to the southern coast.


Occurrence search results | Atlas of Living Australia


[url]http://www.gbif.org/species/2465180
[/URL]


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## zulu (Apr 2, 2014)

jedi_339 said:


> Zulu the very link you used before, the bioatlas, has a number of records for the white lipped pythons from the QLD museum, most originating from PNG or Indonesia.
> There is one entry with no locality given which may or may not be one of the two "Australian" specimens they are purported to have.
> 
> According to the "data quality tests" for most WLP's in Australian collections (notably the one specimen within the qld museum that has not originated from Indonesia or PNG) a lot are missing significant values i.e. date of collection, missing geodetic datum, decimal co-ordinates not supplied, missing name of person who identified the specimen/observation plus a whole raft of others. I think that strengthens Jamie's point about collection data.
> ...



At least you see what a data quality test is ,it also doesnt cover all institutions, someone needs to ask Harld Cogger rather than speculate. Is the white lipped python in his newest book etc. It is good that you are actually looking at the links i provided ,interesting subject.


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## jedi_339 (Apr 2, 2014)

zulu said:


> At least you see what a data quality test is ,it also doesnt cover all institutions, someone needs to ask Harld Cogger rather than speculate. Is the white lipped python in his newest book etc. It is good that you are actually looking at the links i provided ,interesting subject.



I only have the latest edition so can't comment on whether it is the same information as earlier versions.

Under Description
"Australian specimens with reported occurrence on Australia's most northerly Torres Straight Islands"

And then under Distribution
"Reported only from the northernmost 'mud' islands of Torres Straight"

In all honesty I don't know enough about the northern most Torres straight mud islands to answer my next question but does it actually count as a species occupying Australian territory or would it be more likely an occasional vagrant?

Does anyone know much about the mud islands and whether they would support a population?


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## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2014)

Jedi, read DanN's comment (page5) and saltuarius' post (page 8), that will probably answer your question perfectly. Just like none of the TS island would support chondro populations (and many other rainforest dwellers), the habitats on those islands, both structurally and in size, would not support WLPs. Btw, V. prasinus is not an obligatory rainforest dweller, the species is more common in mangroves.

For the life of me, I don't see why Cogger and his book is so relentlessly brought into this.


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## solar 17 (Apr 2, 2014)

jedi_339 l spent a fair bit of time in that area and l seriously doubt those mud islands would support a permanant population of much except midgies (lol) but what (from personal experience) cant be under estimated is the "trade" between PNG and SI and the tides and the speed of the current we more than once saw animals (cattle) drifting along often alive but mostly drowned as we often towed cattle up on to these islands and notified the SI elders but most of the time it was too much trouble for them to do much but the live trade between these two would make most of us shudder,everything from poultry,pigs,goannas,turtles and even fish, trussed/tied up it used to make me sick, but that is/was their lifestyle....but SI is "approx" 100 sq. k,s how anyone could say there is "definately none" there (WLP's) has to be a stretch of the debate, there may not be, these are just my personal experiences. solar 17 ~B~


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## zulu (Apr 2, 2014)

jedi_339 said:


> I only have the latest edition so can't comment on whether it is the same information as earlier versions.
> 
> Under Description
> "Australian specimens with reported occurrence on Australia's most northerly Torres Straight Islands"
> ...



Saibai is the largest island ,its actually bigger than i thought 20 ks x 6 k wide, the report for it is 2013 has 11 reptile species known and no extensive surveys, worth a read .Other than that things are purely speculation other than museum records ,suppose someone could ask Harold Cogger where his sources are from. http://www.tsra.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/4502/Saibai_Biodiversity_Profile_January_2013.pdf


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## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2014)

For Christ's sake, would somebody ring Hal Cogger and ask him?


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 2, 2014)

Waterrat said:


> For Christ's sake, would somebody ring Hal Cogger and ask him?



Hahaha!!! Maybe that could be a little job for zulu - he might even have Hal's number by the sound of it... 

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2014)

Quite a bit of intelligence has been put forward by many in this thread along with some convincing information. Sadly, it
has been missed by some. I guess we have to ring Hal after all.


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2014)

When my mate told me he had these I did wonder to myself 'mmm, what will APS make of this ?'


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## -Peter (Apr 10, 2014)

boa said:


> When my mate told me he had these I did wonder to myself 'mmm, what will APS make of this ?'




yeah, fancy discussing a topic such as this on a reptile forum... what next?


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## champagne (Apr 10, 2014)

boa said:


> When my mate told me he had these I did wonder to myself 'mmm, what will APS make of this ?'



Thats really sad that you thought "what will aps make of this?"

Some people really need to get out more... There is a much bigger part of the hobby that does come on aps.


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## Umbral (Apr 10, 2014)

I think he means that often people on forums are very opinionated as there is no emotional connection to the people they are talking to and because of this there were likely to be strong views on the subject.


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## adderboy (Apr 10, 2014)

champagne said:


> Thats really sad that you thought "what will aps make of this?"
> 
> Some people really need to get out more... There is a much bigger part of the hobby that does come on aps.



But judging by the comments over the past 10 pages or so, he was right...


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2014)

adderboy said:


> But judging by the comments over the past 10 pages or so, he was right...



Yes, exactly my point 

- - - Updated - - -



champagne said:


> Thats really sad that you thought "what will aps make of this?"
> 
> Some people really need to get out more... There is a much bigger part of the hobby that does come on aps.



I think you misunderstood what I was getting at, I wondered what sort of a fight there would be, as it turns out it was exactly as expected.


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## mje772003 (Feb 7, 2015)

Late last year at the Scales n Tails reptile festival there was a stall holder that had a White Lipped Python is there anyone out there that breeds and sells them ? As I was interested in the southern species.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Feb 7, 2015)

Wow hadn't come across this thread interesting read, would also be interested if people are selling these yet I regularly trawl the classifieds to see whats being sold and for how much but haven't seen any WLP's before.


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