# WARNING Substrate problem (arid species)



## dunno103 (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi, soz for shouting but, 

I have finally turned the corner and can now write about this and feel I must warn people about it.

I bought some central sand monitors which I must say where in excellent health (thanks Rick Walker)

About 2 weeks later I came home and one of their bellies had split open spilling what I assumed were intestinal matter. I found out that it was a layer of fat arid species possess to protect themselves from the heat of the desert floor. This lizard ran off my hand and landed on the floor (a height of about 1 metre) and I quickly caught it and then tried to contain what was necessary solo. This is a 2 person job with a monitor with a 15cm snout vent length. 

I found that I could not do it alone so I asked my scared partner for help and when I found 2 bags she relented to hold the lizard by tail and shoulders (she wouldn't press the emerging mass back, this I later admitted was understandable). I pushed it back with surgical gauze (from a first aid kit) and sticky taped this to its body to keep it in place. The vet said that this was the best thing that could have been done.

The struggling that this lizard did burst the lining that holds its internal organs inside I was told.

It was assumed that cage furnishings were to blame being too sharp. So after searching the only possible places of sharpness I concluded this was wrong. The cage was self built.

The next day I went out and when I got home I found another with the same problem. Taped up again offered cardboard shelter and he/she tried to shed the gauze so had to reapply, taped gauze very well this time.

This occured almost in the middle of the belly and the first split was about 45 mm long the second animal had a split of about 30 mm, another had a 60 mm long area of skin that was an unusual colour. I took both of these to the vet as well.

After I gave a full account of husbandry conditions to the vet it was concluded that the problem was a skin infection caused from Breeders Choice kitty litter. 

It absorbs moisture and then releases it which is fine for most animals, including my western blueys, but really caused a drama with my sandys because of the type of skin they have.

On an extremely happy note I have given them their 3rd oral dose of baytril each without having to hold an animal. 2 of them eat all of it off a spoon and the other used to but this time he/she ate food dropped in front of him/her. I have even tricked one into taking it off the belly of crickets. The 2 spoonfeeders are now back to crawling on my hands.

All are doing well thankfully.

pass this message on because I don't wish this problem on any lizard or owner.

Cheers 

Steve


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## method (Sep 30, 2007)

Thats crazy mate, i woulda been so lost in a situation like that. Glad to hear the lil guys ok.

Thats breeders choice for you, dont think ive heard on positive thing about that stuff, never used it myself and never plan to.


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## wil (Sep 30, 2007)

mr b will be proud , he always says its no good
cant beat newspaper


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## method (Sep 30, 2007)

yeh strange why people just dont use newspaper instead of the stuff, they reckon papers ugly. breeders choice looks rank


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## addy (Sep 30, 2007)

Thats insane. I hope they recover well. i suspect they will. As for my recommendation for substrate, something paper based. You can't beat paper...just like wil just said.
I use a product often used for rabiits and guine pigs called "back to nature". It doesn't look great but it's soft and firm. and they love digging in it. It's also cheap and obsorbs all waste making it easy to keep clean. Good luck with your monitors


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## wood_nymph (Sep 30, 2007)

yea i really don't get the appeal of breeders choice (not even as a kitty litter) i find it dusty and doesn't look any better then paper to me plus its kitty litter not reptile substrate, they're meant to poop and leave not live on it.


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## Hickson (Sep 30, 2007)

Dunno103: a friend of mine living in Manly, Sydney, used to have trouble with her Shinglebacks and Centralian Blueys always get scale rot on the belly. She tried all sorts of different substrates but the only hting that worked was rice husks. The only thing that coped with the high humidity.



Hix


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## dunno103 (Sep 30, 2007)

*Thanks all*

Hi

thanks for your quick replys and especially your wishes.

i've got them on newspaper, but the other one i've put him/her on sand and havent seen any probs. but is hard to look cause I can't get anywhere near the lizard since the hectic "check em every twenty minutes time." but the cage is so ventilated I can look from all angles.

The problem with paper is that they can't dig anywhere, but the little fella on sand digs a lot, keeps him/her busy. Note the sand is less than 2 cm deep.

Hix I must say I had a shingleback (wild caught many yrs ago) on sand in a really well ventilated cage for several yrs, don't know how old he was when he was caught. Also a friend had oned in Sydney in a wire walled cage with a pallet type roof (gaps of 5mm between slats) and he he had her for about 18 months in his back yard in 1981 when Sydney got a lot of rain. she gave birth about 14 months after being caught in a gutter in Sydney. She had a large litter.

Looking forward to my next medication time  but I feel it will be ok.

Cheers 

Steve


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## mrmikk (Sep 30, 2007)

That is incredible, I hope they recover for you, and kudos for your quick thinking.


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## mattmc (Sep 30, 2007)

that must have been distressing. good thing you had an idea of what to do. i wouldnt have had a clue what to do.
good luck
matt


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## dragon lady (Sep 30, 2007)

Lucky you reptiles have you....that shouldv been on the 6 o'clock news ....i use sandpit sand...never had a problem......friend did use kittylitter and i got her to change sometime lastyear.....WOW!!!!


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## richardsc (Sep 30, 2007)

that sounds terrible mate,sounds like u did a great job,ive also got 3 of richard walkers juvie sandys i got recently,i keep mine on sand,i dont like that breeders choice stuff,as to news paper,thats not very natural to a digging monitor but just the thing till there all healed up,id consider sand if i was u,they loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove to dig,my 3 make new tunnels every day in there cage,only issue i have there is i barely get to see them,but there eating and coming out when im not around so alls good,one possable cause for your dilema is u have to remember there very fragile,especially in the area where they umbilical scar is,i suffered the same thing with a newborn shingle which i eventually lost,and breeders choice would be pretty harsh on a fragile active monitors gut,hope it all works out for u


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## alex_c (Sep 30, 2007)

i have that crap in with my bredli and young beardies i will be removing it tomorrow. the only reason i started using it was because i had my bredli in a tub on a heat mat and the newspaper was giving off fumes. i want to switch to fake grass is their any kinds to avoid?


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## Viridae (Sep 30, 2007)

wood_nymph said:


> yea i really don't get the appeal of breeders choice (not even as a kitty litter) i find it dusty and doesn't look any better then paper to me plus its kitty litter not reptile substrate, they're meant to poop and leave not live on it.



IMO as kitty litter its the best there is - it is far more absorbant than the normal fired clay stuff and hold odours considerably better too. Also breaks down more quickly in the compost.


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## dunno103 (Oct 27, 2007)

Just a heads up on progress.

baytril wasn't working as well as expected but good enough to stop analysis of the bacteria cultured.

Two weeks ago, the one who had split 2nd split again at the vets when he took the "skin layer" off to check progress, this one also had its leg opening as well. It's been a really stressful time.

The vet gave me something to inject them with and after checking last week, we could both see the improvement, one of them went home without a "skin layer"

Now I only have to inject one of them and luckily this is the one that I can touch almost whenever I want. I gave an injection this morning.

So it finally looks like I've turned the corner

Thanks for the kind coments

Cheers

Steve


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## dragon lady (Oct 27, 2007)

Thats great.......give em a big SOFT hug from me!


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## GSXR_Boy (Oct 27, 2007)

Tough break mate.
All the best with it!


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## Naxx (Oct 27, 2007)

sweet cuppin cakes! ill be avoiding that stuff like the plague now. last thing anyone wants is for their beloved pets to split open at random intervals!


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## stokedapollo (Nov 1, 2007)

the local place we have here uses some type of crushe walnut shell looks real good and seems to work well but i dont know to much about it


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 7, 2007)

Crushed walnut shell is an abrasive

I would never ever risk it


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## Chimera (Nov 7, 2007)

dunno103 said:


> Hi, soz for shouting but,
> After I gave a full account of husbandry conditions to the vet it was concluded that the problem was a skin infection caused from Breeders Choice kitty litter.
> 
> It absorbs moisture and then releases it which is fine for most animals, including my western blueys, but really caused a drama with my sandys because of the type of skin they have.



I'm not sure the full story is being told here. What moisture are you referring too? Were you misting the animals or was this being absorbed from the general humidity in the enclosure?

Breeders choice is dry out of the packaging and I would imagine that in a Sand Monitor enclosure it would only desiccate further.

I'm not trying to be provocative but it doesn't sound like the substrate was solely to blame.


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## dunno103 (Nov 7, 2007)

Chimera it was from a waterbowl approx 20cm wide away from the heat (other side of enclosure) and since I took them off that *&%# they have been improving. I offer water once every 2 days and then remove it.

Steve


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## Jonno from ERD (Nov 7, 2007)

Hey mate,

I'm very interested in this matter as I am keeping several species of lizards on Breeders Choice or Dr Harry's, inlcuding Perenties, so I want to clearly understand what you're trying to warn people against. I provide standing water to them once a week for two days, and very lightly mist them every other day when they don't have it. The substrate always stays dry (this is why we use it, especially for our Shinglebacks) and the waterbowls we provide are always at the cool end and always small so not much can be spilt. 

What exactly was it about the substrate that caused the problem?

Cheers


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## Chimera (Nov 8, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> I'm very interested in this matter as I am keeping several species of lizards on Breeders Choice or Dr Harry's, inlcuding Perenties, so I want to clearly understand what you're trying to warn people against. I provide standing water to them once a week for two days, and very lightly mist them every other day when they don't have it. The substrate always stays dry (this is why we use it, especially for our Shinglebacks) and the waterbowls we provide are always at the cool end and always small so not much can be spilt.
> 
> ...



That is what I would like to know. A 20cm waterbowl away from the heat source would not be enough to moisten the breeders choice.


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## SnakeWrangler (Nov 8, 2007)

Sorry to hear about this. Good luck with it.


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Nov 8, 2007)

Why can't we just take him at his word? If he says that's what happened... well.. that's what happened. Why must anyone assume he's lying or not telling the _*whole*_ truth. I'm sure if he did something stupid, he certainly wouldn't come here to tell you about it. Geez. Every thread lately is turning into a debate. He came on here to say.. "hey watch out, this is what happened". I'm glad he did. If I ever decide to get a monitor.. I'll heed his advice. Thanks for the heads up Dunno103!!! Good luck and I hope they are healing well.


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## Chimera (Nov 8, 2007)

GrumpyTheSnake said:


> Why can't we just take him at his word? If he says that's what happened... well.. that's what happened. Why must anyone assume he's lying or not telling the _*whole*_ truth. I'm sure if he did something stupid, he certainly wouldn't come here to tell you about it. Geez. Every thread lately is turning into a debate. He came on here to say.. "hey watch out, this is what happened". I'm glad he did. If I ever decide to get a monitor.. I'll heed his advice. Thanks for the heads up Dunno103!!! Good luck and I hope they are healing well.



Because an intelligent creature would like to know the whole story to make their own decisions on their keeping practices based on *ALL* the facts. As Jonno has said, he has used Breeders Choice on other monitor species and Shinglebacks without an issue, dunno103 has also used Breeders Choice on Shinglebacks and central blueys without an issue.

There are issues that can occur with a range of keeping practices and if you don't identify what the root cause is the problem will crop up again and again. If you want to be foolish and follow advice blindly then be my guest, god help the creatures you keep.

dunno103, I will state this clearly, I think there is something missing in the picture you have painted about the issue you had with your sand monitors. I am by no means criticising your keeping practices but I suggest you dig a bit deeper and do a bit more research to be absolutely sure that the root cause for this problem has been removed.


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Nov 8, 2007)

Chimera said:


> Because an intelligent creature would like to know the whole story to make their own decisions on their keeping practices based on *ALL* the facts. As Jonno has said, he has used Breeders Choice on other monitor species and Shinglebacks without an issue, dunno103 has also used Breeders Choice on Shinglebacks and central blueys without an issue.


 
Maybe these *are* all the facts. 



> There are issues that can occur with a range of keeping practices and if you don't identify what the root cause is the problem will crop up again and again. If you want to be foolish and follow advice blindly then be my guest, god help the creatures you keep.


 
Are you just looking for an argument??? 

Don't assume to know how I do things and how I look after my animals. You can keep *those* opinions to your self!!!!


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## Chris1 (Nov 8, 2007)

stokedapollo said:


> the local place we have here uses some type of crushe walnut shell looks real good and seems to work well but i dont know to much about it



crushed walnut shells almost killed my beardies, (thru impaction) i'd never recommend using that for any animal,...

Dunno103, good luck with ur babies, it sounds awful what ur going thru with them.


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## Chimera (Nov 8, 2007)

GrumpyTheSnake said:


> Maybe these *are* all the facts.



Maybe they aren't. As I've said I'm not making any criticisms, just asking questions to try and complete the picture.





GrumpyTheSnake said:


> Are you just looking for an argument???
> 
> Don't assume to know how I do things and how I look after my animals. You can keep *those* opinions to your self!!!!



I said nothing of your keeping practices, I only highlighted that blindly following advice without consideration is both foolish and dangerous.

Too often I see reply posts from people who make a snap decision to change their keeping practices based on opinions/advice/experience from one person without first questioning what other factors may be at play.

We learn by asking questions, not one person has criticised dunno103 on this thread let alone used the word "stupid", we have simply asked for further information.

These issues are supposed to be debated and online forums are used to do this. Harden up and get used to it.


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## geckodan (Nov 8, 2007)

Chimera said:


> Because an intelligent creature would like to know the whole story to make their own decisions on their keeping practices based on *ALL* the facts. As Jonno has said, he has used Breeders Choice on other monitor species and Shinglebacks without an issue, dunno103 has also used Breeders Choice on Shinglebacks and central blueys without an issue.
> 
> There are issues that can occur with a range of keeping practices and if you don't identify what the root cause is the problem will crop up again and again. If you want to be foolish and follow advice blindly then be my guest, god help the creatures you keep.
> 
> dunno103, I will state this clearly, I think there is something missing in the picture you have painted about the issue you had with your sand monitors. I am by no means criticising your keeping practices but I suggest you dig a bit deeper and do a bit more research to be absolutely sure that the root cause for this problem has been removed.



I tend to agree with Chimera. As a reptile vet I find the whole "cause and effect" scenario unlikely. There is almost certainly numerous factors at play such as nutritional, traumatic, infectious and environmental. Rarely do we ever see just one factor causing the problem and rarely , if ever, is it ever that simple.


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## Colin (Nov 8, 2007)

geckodan said:


> I tend to agree with Chimera. As a reptile vet I find the whole "cause and effect" scenario unlikely. There is almost certainly numerous factors at play such as nutritional, traumatic, infectious and environmental. Rarely do we ever see just one factor causing the problem and rarely , if ever, is it ever that simple.



would have to agree with this also. 

we've all seen the opinions on breeders choice in numerous threads and personally I don't like it and prefer to use newspaper for my substrate.

But I'm interested to hear what geckodan's opinions (as a reptile vet) are on breeders choice? 

Do you use it yourself Dan? Or do you prefer newspaper for your own reptiles?


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## geckodan (Nov 8, 2007)

Colin said:


> would have to agree with this also.
> 
> we've all seen the opinions on breeders choice in numerous threads and personally I don't like it and prefer to use newspaper for my substrate.
> 
> ...


I use both, depending on the cage shape and size and the species. I am just trialling shredded paper as an alternative to breeders choice for no other reason than cost. Personally, don't have an issue with it and IMO feel the burrowing snakes are more comfortable in it then with newspaper.


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## richardsc (Nov 8, 2007)

but would u keep sand monitors on it,also to answer an earlier comment from someone,the water bowl letting off humidity from the cool end to dampen isnt a prob,but when the animals run through it and spill water all over the place would cause more moisture in there,personally all my monitors are on sand,and the sandys have sand deep enough to make burrows in,i have nothing against breeders choice,just not for me,especially for monitors,just out of curiosity,how are the sandys going,this thread is about them,i find it strange what has happened,like i said earlier,i have 3 of the same monitors from richard walker,perfect health,but i keep mine on sand,could the problem be caused by over feeding and the rough surface combined,lets hear some probable causes from the prob,not debates on the use of breeders choice


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## geckodan (Nov 8, 2007)

richardsc said:


> but would u keep sand monitors on it,also to answer an earlier comment from someone,the water bowl letting off humidity from the cool end to dampen isnt a prob,but when the animals run through it and spill water all over the place would cause more moisture in there,personally all my monitors are on sand,and the sandys have sand deep enough to make burrows in,i have nothing against breeders choice,just not for me,especially for monitors,just out of curiosity,how are the sandys going,this thread is about them,i find it strange what has happened,like i said earlier,i have 3 of the same monitors from richard walker,perfect health,but i keep mine on sand,could the problem be caused by over feeding and the rough surface combined,lets hear some probable causes from the prob,not debates on the use of breeders choice



No I wouldn't keep sand monitors on it. I have only come into this debate as I was asked a specific question. Each to their own as far as substrate goes. My only comment was ,that in my experience, breeders choice does not cause spontaneous skin rupture and evisceration. No information presented so far would make me believe otherwise. This is a multifactorial problem and blaming one aspect of husbandry is a typical, yet incorrect, way of addressing the issue.


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## dunno103 (Nov 8, 2007)

*All the facts*

What I have said before.

Chimera I must say do not quote me with words I have not said. I have never kept a shingleback on it, and have never had centralian blueys.

Ok now I didn't post this to have a bloody debate and justify my keeping practises to any of you, I was just warning people that keep arid species in humid evironments can be dangerous.

Dan yes they were shipped from SA to Sydney, they were eating what the breeder was feeding them and I had them on BC, I had a 20cm waterbowl at cool end, I have ventilation holes in back, both sides and in the doors(13cm high). Their bellies split open and I went to the vet.

I got rid of substrate and now it seems as if problem has been solved.

After obtaining all relevant info off me and seeing the unaffected one the vet concluded that it was the substrate releasing moisture back into the environment.

Sadly the pathogen couldn't be identified, Baytril had fought it effectively.

Cheers 

Steve

btw I have finished with this thread. Except ot say thanks to Grumpy and others who have been supportive.


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## richardsc (Nov 8, 2007)

thanks for sharing your experience dunno,i wasnt debating,or didnt mean to,lol,good luck with the sandys,i tend to agree with your point to dan,its just strange that u had those issues dunno,my sandys cop moisture in there burrows,but as u stated it was pathogens,well unidentifyed,just odd,but like i originally said,juvie monitors are active buggers,and they can be very fragile in the umbilical area,my 5 sandys have large umbilical scars,compared to what my ridgeys have ever had,main thing is they seem to be doin well now,thats the main thing,also i wouldnt worry about what people say on here,just use the info if it helps,or snigger at it if it doesnt,lol,theres way to much bickering in forums at times,its just people passionate about there charges though,good luck and thanks for the info


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## richardsc (Nov 8, 2007)

oh and im thinking the cause was pathogens being released from moist breeders choice,not the roughness of breeders choice on the umbilical area of juvie sandys


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## BROWNS (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm in agreeance with geckodan and others as well as richardsc and a number of reasons may have combined here to cause this problem but could all have come from bc so i also agree with dunno103.I have no experience with monitors at all but know that bc is a crap choice of substrate and encourages pathogens when being only spot cleaned which is what most who use bc seem to do as i've read it time after time that people like bc because it absorbs well and doesn't smell and is easy to spot clean and therein i feel lies the problem.Faeces and urine will soak into more bc generally than just the spot cleaned and if all the spoiled bc is not removed there is where the pathogens will thrive.

Personally from the many horror stories i've heard with using bc i have no idea why people use it unless they clean regularly and thoroughly as it seems to promote just spot cleaning and how far does the faeces and urine actually soak into the bc and spread compared to what is actually removed when spot cleaning?It may well be a few reasons for the cause of your probblem and the baytril "antibiotics" has stemmed off the pathogen for now but i am taking a good guess it's a combination of things that has caused the problem but could still all boil down to using bc,i hate the look of the stuff,it causes impaction,is dusty and irritable to your animals and encourages slackness in cleaning properly if just spot cleaning.Just faeces and urine alone will cause humidity build up and if it absorbs the smell you obviously wouldn't notice how much urine etc has actually been cleaned up and how much was left behind.

Best bet in my view is to get rid of the bc and use another substate.Shredded paper sounds great and if you use enough would be pretty good for burrowing i assume.As i said i have no experience with monitors really but do know bc is a crap choice of substrate in my opinion,others have their own opinions and are welcome to them however i'd stick well clear of the stuff it's for bloody cats anyway not reptiles!


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