# BHP Autopsy OPMV Positive



## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

Hi Everyone
I am just trying to explain what has happened to me over the last couple of weeks, I am also really struggling to find out why. I am also wanting to warn people.
2 weeks ago I found my carpet python dead - I had had this snake for about 4 yrs. It is the first snake I have ever had die. I was shocked but didn't really think anything suspect, I thought it was just a one off thing. That weekend I was cleaning out my enclosures and getting ready to feed the snakes. I noticed my Black Headed Python was, (its so hard to explain) like every time he was lifting his head it would go backwards. I freaked out and rang the vet - I said to her if I didn't know better I would think the symptoms where OPMV. I rushed him straight in to the vet. She put him on Baytril and I was injecting him daily, she asked to see him again on the Monday, she had originally saw him on Saturday. By the Monday he was really bad - his whole body was twisting around in knots, it was a horrible thing to see. She rang 5 reptile specialists, apparently they where in a conference, they all said it sounded like OPMV and it needed to be euthanized and an autopsy done. They tested the brain spinal cord and liver and it came back as an absolute 100% positive OPMV.
I was totally shocked and still am - I NEVER thought this could happen to me. The most snakes I have ever owned at one time is 13. I have never bred. My first question was how did my snakes get it and was it my fault???
I needed this answered. They said it must have been one I had introduced. My last snake purchased was the BHP and that was back in APRIL 07. Then they said I may have had a carrier and stress had brought it out. I still don't feel I know how I got it and I don't think I ever will. I only have three spotteds left. They said that bleaches or disinfectant don't kill the virus they are not even sure that F10 will kill it which I have. My snakes where housed in seperate enclosures in a spare room in my house. The enclosure that the BHP and the Carpet where in are being burnt and I am doing the best I can with the F10. I feel like my house is diseased. My remaining snakes will stay with me for life, but, if they display ANY symptoms of this horrible virus they will be euthanized.
I still can't believe this has happened to me or why it has. I will never purchase another reptile again.
Please be warned if this can happen to me it can happen to anybody.


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## Aussie Python Lover (Sep 12, 2008)

Awww mate im so sorry to hear that


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## andyscott (Sep 12, 2008)

1st of all, I so sorry to hear that. Its devastating news.
2nd, you have just struck fear in all that reads this.


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## Dave (Sep 12, 2008)

andyscott said:


> 1st of all, I so sorry to hear that. Its devastating news.
> 2nd, you have just struck fear in all that reads this.



your right, I hope Mine never get it.
So sorry for your loss. Couldn't imagine walking in and seeing what you saw :shock:


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## gozz (Sep 12, 2008)

Sorry for your loss


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## SlothHead (Sep 12, 2008)

Sorry to hear of your loss. 

The proper thing to do now would be to contact all those that you have purchased snakes from or sold to over the past year and let them know.

Hopefully this will inhibit the spread (probably wont) but worth a try

All the best for the rest of the collection


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## Helikaon (Sep 12, 2008)

that is not good at all, but seriously if anything is going to kill it it will be bleach. but since you ahve f10 use parvo strength on everything.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

SlothHead said:


> Sorry to hear of your loss.
> 
> The proper thing to do now would be to contact all those that you have purchased snakes from or sold to over the past year and let them know.
> 
> ...



Yes, that is the process I am going through now. I would never lay blame on anybody. I just said to the vet that I need answers as to how I got it - she said she doesn't have the answers, which is killing me. Now I am constantly checking my remaining snakes - just waiting for the next one.


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## caustichumor (Sep 12, 2008)

That is terrible, The fact that it was over 12 months before visible signs of the disease where noticed is a real worry, even the most cautious keeper rarely quarantines for over a year..


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

Helikaon said:


> that is not good at all, but seriously if anything is going to kill it it will be bleach. but since you ahve f10 use parvo strength on everything.



Yes, I have the parvo strength, I am going crazy with it - doing all the carpets, walls, everything. This thing makes you so paranoid.


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## Sdaji (Sep 12, 2008)

Strange that they said it was a 100% positive diagnosis when that's simply not possible with the facilities available in this country - they've either lied to you or there has been a miscommunication. Of course that doesn't make it any less tragic and I'm so sorry to hear about what happened   

Many, many things can cause the classic symptom you saw (the head falling back over the body), including poisoning, exposure to bad temperatures and a wide range of bacteria and viruses. Naturally, you have to act as though it was a nasty pathogen for the sake of your other animals. If this was OPMV it is either so contagious that you picked it up from some unknown source and brought it home without it needing to come in on a reptile (unless you bring reptiles to your house, which doesn't sound like the case) or it came from local reptiles aroung your house, or it can be dormant indefinitely. If any of these are the case, there's basically nothing that can be done to stop it. It doesn't sound like you should beat yourself up over it.


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## Chris1 (Sep 12, 2008)

really sorry for ur loss, youve brought tears to my eyes.

i was starting to think it was quite a rare disease till recently,...makes me not wanna buy any more snakes,.... 

Hope ur ok, but i guess that will happen with time.


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## olivehydra (Sep 12, 2008)

sad news I agree. As someone else has stated the 100% positive diagnosis is not possible in Oz. If it is any consolation I had my "positive" diagnosis nearly two years ago, and to date my other snakes are doing fine.


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## Tatelina (Sep 12, 2008)

Bloody hell...another case?  Sorry to hear about your animals. 

So are you saying since April 07 no animals have gone in or out of your house/collection??


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## Noongato (Sep 12, 2008)

Is there any kind of way to prevent it? Besides keeping your animals in quarantine from others etc. 
Like cleaning procedures, or is anyone working on a vaccine?


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## -Peter (Sep 12, 2008)

The wording is 100% positive for OPMV not it is OPMV. I am assuming this to be the case. Material still needs to be sent O/S for confirmation.
Regardless it has all the hallmarks of a duck so I would say it is a duck. If it was bad temps, poisoning or bacterial these would be more readily diagnosed.
Unfortunately there have been numerous case of an OPMV like virus infecting collections in SE Qld recently.
Many collectors shed their animals in haste during the last outbreak so we are now seeing that legacy.
I hope people take more appropriate action this time.
I was left emotionally devastated after the loss of numerous snake. Feeling that I had some how caused it. Dont fall into the same state. Its not your fault.


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## Slytherin (Sep 12, 2008)

OMG! Thats so scary! Makes me even more paranoid than I was before!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Sorry for your loss :cry:, I cannot even begin to imagine what you're going through. Its bad enough that its happened :x, but its the _"why?"_ feeling that's worse! I hope all is going to be ok now and your other snakes will be alright. 

Please let us all know how things go.


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## thepythonpit (Sep 12, 2008)

very sad story , sorry to hear it .
you are the second person this year that has had the balls to come out and tell of your missfortune and for that i congragulate you .
the right action for you to take now would be to euthinise the rest of your collection ( as others have done this year) i would proberly wait to see if any other python in your keep falls sick to this devasteing disease , but it is almost certain others in your collection will fall to this disease so the sooner you take action the sooner you can get over it and move on... 
sad day for us all, good luck to you and your future


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## Ozzie Python (Sep 12, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your loss, must be very upsetting.



midnightserval said:


> Is there any kind of way to prevent it? Besides keeping your animals in quarantine from others etc.
> Like cleaning procedures, or is anyone working on a vaccine?


 
Makes you wonder how we can actually effectively quarantine our animals, 6 months may be fine, nothing to say in another 6 months your collection is wiped out. No-one knows how long OPMV can sit dormant before a snake will start to show the tell tale signs it is infected.

Until there is a test available without having to euthanize the snake i doubt we will be able to get on top of the problem.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Strange that they said it was a 100% positive diagnosis when that's simply not possible with the facilities available in this country - they've either lied to you or there has been a miscommunication. Of course that doesn't make it any less tragic and I'm so sorry to hear about what happened
> 
> Many, many things can cause the classic symptom you saw (the head falling back over the body), including poisoning, exposure to bad temperatures and a wide range of bacteria and viruses. Naturally, you have to act as though it was a nasty pathogen for the sake of your other animals. If this was OPMV it is either so contagious that you picked it up from some unknown source and brought it home without it needing to come in on a reptile (unless you bring reptiles to your house, which doesn't sound like the case) or it came from local reptiles aroung your house, or it can be dormant indefinitely. If any of these are the case, there's basically nothing that can be done to stop it. It doesn't sound like you should beat yourself up over it.



And that is whats really p......g me off. I don't handle other ppls reptiles, I only handle mine when I clean out the enclosures. I honestly thought when she rang through with the autopsy results that it would have been negative and just an unfortunate thing to happen. When she said it was no doubt positive - I nearly hit the floor. They must be sick to death of me ringing them and asking for answers. The vet was the one that told me to come on here, hoping somebody could give me answers. So what your saying is that there is a chance it may not be OPMV??


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## Sdaji (Sep 12, 2008)

-Peter said:


> The wording is 100% positive for OPMV not it is OPMV. I am assuming this to be the case. Material still needs to be sent O/S for confirmation.
> Regardless it has all the hallmarks of a duck so I would say it is a duck. If it was bad temps, poisoning or bacterial these would be more readily diagnosed.
> Unfortunately there have been numerous case of an OPMV like virus infecting collections in SE Qld recently.
> Many collectors shed their animals in haste during the last outbreak so we are now seeing that legacy.
> I hope people take more appropriate action this time.



Do you mean "100% consistent with OPMV" as opposed to "100% positive for OPMV"?

I know of elapids which have been exposed to high temperatures during transit and have shown the stargazing and head flopping symptoms off and on for years. They are classic symptoms of a snake being unwell with anything at all which causes neurological problems, rather than being something which immediately indicates any particular cause. It might have hallmarks of a duck, but those hallmarks are shared by other things.

The necropsy results are what would be most useful, but we're kidding ourselves if we think we know enough to be able to diagnose it so easily and rule out anything other than OPMV, including all other viruses.

Whatever it is, it's scarey stuff, and it's a problem we're fighting with both arms tied behind our backs and with a blindfold on. I think the most important step in dealing with the problem at the moment is for us to acknowledge how little we know about it, rather than trying to cling to unreliable information. In this time of 'it's a fact once it has been posted by three different people on a forum', we leave ourselves open to following the wrong path and forming false truisms which can last for many years.

Mystery: sorry to be getting into this in your thread. I'm so sorry to hear about what happened  Good luck with your remaining snakes.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

Tatelina said:


> Bloody hell...another case?  Sorry to hear about your animals.
> 
> So are you saying since April 07 no animals have gone in or out of your house/collection??



none.


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## FAY (Sep 12, 2008)

Sdaji is saying that they don't have the proper tests in Australia that can positively say (100%) sure that it is OPMV.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

olivehydra said:


> sad news I agree. As someone else has stated the 100% positive diagnosis is not possible in Oz. If it is any consolation I had my "positive" diagnosis nearly two years ago, and to date my other snakes are doing fine.



thanks, that makes me feel a little better.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

-Peter said:


> The wording is 100% positive for OPMV not it is OPMV. I am assuming this to be the case. Material still needs to be sent O/S for confirmation.
> Regardless it has all the hallmarks of a duck so I would say it is a duck. If it was bad temps, poisoning or bacterial these would be more readily diagnosed.
> Unfortunately there have been numerous case of an OPMV like virus infecting collections in SE Qld recently.
> Many collectors shed their animals in haste during the last outbreak so we are now seeing that legacy.
> ...



The vet said - without a doubt it was OPMV because I kept saying it couldn't be.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

thepythonpit said:


> very sad story , sorry to hear it .
> you are the second person this year that has had the balls to come out and tell of your missfortune and for that i congragulate you .
> the right action for you to take now would be to euthinise the rest of your collection ( as others have done this year) i would proberly wait to see if any other python in your keep falls sick to this devasteing disease , but it is almost certain others in your collection will fall to this disease so the sooner you take action the sooner you can get over it and move on...
> sad day for us all, good luck to you and your future



The thought has crossed my mind to euthanize them - I hate the thought of it, they where my first 3 snakes I purchased. I've had them for 5yrs. They really hold a special place. I nearly start crying just thinking about it. At the same time if I do see symptoms I will do it - I won't let them suffer.
I hate this friggin thing!!!!


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## Sdaji (Sep 12, 2008)

Mystery said:


> And that is whats really p......g me off. I don't handle other ppls reptiles, I only handle mine when I clean out the enclosures. I honestly thought when she rang through with the autopsy results that it would have been negative and just an unfortunate thing to happen. When she said it was no doubt positive - I nearly hit the floor. They must be sick to death of me ringing them and asking for answers. The vet was the one that told me to come on here, hoping somebody could give me answers. So what your saying is that there is a chance it may not be OPMV??



There is absolutely a chance that it may not be OPMV. We know so little about snake viruses, and most vets still don't even deal with bacterial or other issues properly. Sadly, most diagnoses are incorrect, and few vets are willing to say "I can't give you a definitive answer, but I'll still take your money". There are so many things about the OPMV issue which make no sense at all according to what is currently "known" about it. Unfortunately, when people don't know something, they tend to fill the void with assumption rather than accept that they just don't know.

By the same token, it may well have been OPMV. As I said, if someone who hasn't even purchased a reptile for over a year and doesn't handle other peoples' reptiles can have an OPMV outbreak in their collection, we're in trouble and basically have no way of dealing with the issue. Have you ever had mites? If so, how recently?

One thing which just makes no sense at all is that pet shops, many large breeders and some zoos deal in large numbers of reptiles which come in from all over the country and are exposed to each other with no regard to quarantine at all, and in these conditions we don't see disease outbreaks, which doesn't make sense and certainly shows that the normal beliefs about OPMV are wrong. What is most peculiar is that OPMV most often seems to hit collections with strict quarantine in place and with no easy source to be identified. Sometimes it seems to be everywhere, but the places you'd most expect to find it don't seem to get it.

Good on you for coming forward with your story!


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

Ozzie Python said:


> Sorry to hear about your loss, must be very upsetting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is exactly right - I never, ever, would have got into reptiles had I thought for a second that this could happen to me. It could have been with the Carpet Python that I had for 4 yrs and found dead. He displayed NO symptoms.


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## Jason (Sep 12, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Strange that they said it was a 100% positive diagnosis when that's simply not possible with the facilities available in this country.



i agree unless they isolated the genome, sequenced it and did a blast search they cant give a 100% ID.

regardless of the 100%, its very sad indeed! good luck and hang in there.


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## Bob2 (Sep 12, 2008)

Sorry to hear your sad news. Hopefully your other snakes will come out alright if you decide to just watch their progress.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> There is absolutely a chance that it may not be OPMV. We know so little about snake viruses, and most vets still don't even deal with bacterial or other issues properly. Sadly, most diagnoses are incorrect, and few vets are willing to say "I can't give you a definitive answer, but I'll still take your money". There are so many things about the OPMV issue which make no sense at all according to what is currently "known" about it. Unfortunately, when people don't know something, they tend to fill the void with assumption rather than accept that they just don't know.
> 
> By the same token, it may well have been OPMV. As I said, if someone who hasn't even purchased a reptile for over a year and doesn't handle other peoples' reptiles can have an OPMV outbreak in their collection, we're in trouble and basically have no way of dealing with the issue. Have you ever had mites? If so, how recently?
> 
> ...



I have never had mites - never even had to take one of my snakes to the vet. The vet said it may have been that I had a carrier and we had a colder than normal winter and I also moved house, the stress may have surfaced it in the carrier.
I have a lot of pets, dogs, horses a bird, including a pet rat. Maybe we are looking in the wrong places as to where this horrible thing comes from.


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## herpkeeper (Sep 12, 2008)

you have my full condolences, such a terrible ordeal. all the best for the future.


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## -Peter (Sep 12, 2008)

Yes Sdaji, 100% consitant would be the appropriate term, thanks. Mystery, I had a number on snakes die or be euthanaised. They showed diffrent symptoms. There was no clear pattern as such.


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## JasonL (Sep 12, 2008)

Mystery said:


> That is exactly right - I never, ever, would have got into reptiles had I thought for a second that this could happen to me. It could have been with the Carpet Python that I had for 4 yrs and found dead. He displayed NO symptoms.



As for the "classic" symtoms, well, alot of snakes can die in such a way from all types of things, a snake showing certain types of pain could be mistaken as have neuro problems. The bad thing for you though was that you lost 2 snakes, and that one was a Morelia and it died quick, as Morelia have been known to be quite weak when it comes to the OPMV type virus, I wouldn't think this was the carrier, I'd be more inclined to think that it may of been the BHP, as Aspidites are pretty tough critters and being snake eaters may be able to fight such a sickness for some time before it overtakes them........but really, that all here say, as Sdaji as said, the answers are just not known, and it seems like it may all be part of keeping snakes in the future... best of luck, don't take it out on yourself, it certainly wasn't your fault.


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## Sdaji (Sep 12, 2008)

Mystery said:


> I have never had mites - never even had to take one of my snakes to the vet. The vet said it may have been that I had a carrier and we had a colder than normal winter and I also moved house, the stress may have surfaced it in the carrier.
> I have a lot of pets, dogs, horses a bird, including a pet rat. Maybe we are looking in the wrong places as to where this horrible thing comes from.



Many people believe that OPMV is only contagious if there is blood transfer, so the only likely method of transering it in captivity is mites or maybe copulation. If your case actually is OPMV, there was presumably another method of transfer (unless you were unlucky enough to acquire two infected snakes independantly and coincidentally both died of it at the same time).

I've had the same thought about us looking in the wrong place for sources. Maybe it can be carried in other animals. I suspect it might be somewhat like either the HIV/AIDS virus which sits there basically doing nothing other than quietly replicating for months or years, or sometimes indefinitely (HIV) and then suddenly changes and rapidly kills you (AIDS). It may or may not change to the deadly form. Perhaps OPMV is less likely than AIDS to change or requires some trigger.

It could also be like genital herpes and cold sores, which lie dormant in the nervous system, doing absolutely nothing, until something triggers them. They then become active, multiply, become highly contagious, but may or may not cause symptoms. Genital herpes/cold sores aren't usually deadly viruses, but perhaps OPMV has worse symptoms, more likely to kill. If this is the case, a snake possibly never be cured and may or may not shed the virus when it is not showing symptoms, and you'd have no way of knowing.

I am trained as a zoologist and geneticist and only have a basic knowledge of virology, I'm just throwing ideas up and don't claim to be an expert on the subject. If anyone knows enough about virology to be able to confirm that these are possibilities or that these can not be possibilities due to the group of viruses OPMV belongs to, please comment.

Vets have mislead us with many things over the last 20 years. Thy used to find Salmonella in snakes and say that's what killed them (some still do!). Snakes are _supposed_ to have Salmonella in them. Sometimes rats can carry parasites which are killed by freezing, the snake ingests them, they are found in the snake's faeces and mistakenly believed to be snake parasites. Vets spent several years telling us all that our snakes had IBD, then later acknowledged that the diagnoses had been incorrect. It is possible that OPMV is actually a harmless virus which is reasonably common, and when snakes die of some other issue, OPMV is often found and wrongly blamed (or not found at all and blamed anyway! This "100% consistent with..." stuff is so incredibly misleading!). Not all viruses are harmful, many you don't even notice and some can even be beneficial. Maybe we're looking at the wrong bug - it has happened before.


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## Casey (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss.

I'm going through a similar issue at the moment, last week I found my water python stargazing, and it was an awful feeling. The vet put her on a course of baytril which has only just finished. She is looking better is definitely stronger and she seems to have stopped the stargazing. 
I never ruled out OPMV but thought i owed it to her to give the baytril a go, I have no other snakes and handle my lizards on separate days to her. I'm still not getting my hopes up too far. 
I spoke to many different people and vets regarding Opmv and the like and found out that there has been at least two cases in Dubbo in the last couple of years and I am willing to bet that there has been more that either weren't recognised as Opmv or just not talked about to anyone.

I was actually at the zoo vet clinic here and was told there that even a two year quarantine is not an indication that a snake hasn't got it...Two years, its a very scary thought


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## Slytherin (Sep 12, 2008)

:shock:


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Many people believe that OPMV is only contagious if there is blood transfer, so the only likely method of transering it in captivity is mites or maybe copulation. If your case actually is OPMV, there was presumably another method of transfer (unless you were unlucky enough to acquire two infected snakes independantly and coincidentally both died of it at the same time).
> 
> I've had the same thought about us looking in the wrong place for sources. Maybe it can be carried in other animals. I suspect it might be somewhat like either the HIV/AIDS virus which sits there basically doing nothing other than quietly replicating for months or years, or sometimes indefinitely (HIV) and then suddenly changes and rapidly kills you (AIDS). It may or may not change to the deadly form. Perhaps OPMV is less likely than AIDS to change or requires some trigger.
> 
> ...



I know this is going to sound really weird. I had a friend die of mad cow disease (yes, in Aust). It is called in the human for m Creutzfeld Jacob Disease (sorry sp?). You can find his story in a google search engine if you look up CJD and it will take you in and then you type in Shane's story. Anyway, symptoms etc, where the same as OMPV. The autopsy was even the same - brain and spinal cord. Highly contagous, and nothing kills it, he wasn't even allowed to be buried - he had to be cremated. All instruments used on him had to be disposed of as auto claving doesn't kill it. Now, where did Mad Cow come from!! All of Shane's symptoms where neurological.
This OPMV has really got me thinking. Just another sign of the times.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

-Peter said:


> Yes Sdaji, 100% consitant would be the appropriate term, thanks. Mystery, I had a number on snakes die or be euthanaised. They showed diffrent symptoms. There was no clear pattern as such.



I have heard that Peter, that there can be no symptoms at all. That is why I would never lay the blame on anybody, how the heck do we know where this thing comes from. I think people need to be as open as possible with snake deaths as well, we need to know, no point sticking our heads in the sand


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 12, 2008)

So very sorry for your loss. Certainly can't beat yourself up for it as it sounds as though you havn't done anything risky whatsoever. Best of luck to you with your remaining pythons. Azza.


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## moosenoose (Sep 12, 2008)

I've recently lost a female water python. More than likely to an RI. But I'm sure if the vet couldn't diagnose the problem properly they'd be screaming OMPV and waving their hands all over the place.

I know exactly how you're feeling. I also know about the feeling of never wanting to buy another animal to put it through the same unnecessary end, but at the end of the day you have to gather up your courage, look at what you could do a little differently and simply put it down to a bad experience. If you’ve been doing everything right, then it really isn’t your fault. The chances of this happening to you are the same as the animal being run over by a passing car.

I really send my sympathies to you. It’s not a nice feeling.

Kind regards,
Luke


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## mrillusion (Sep 12, 2008)

i am very sorry for your loss i hope this never happens again:cry::cry::cry:


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## rockman (Sep 12, 2008)

Mystery said:


> The vet said - without a doubt it was OPMV because I kept saying it couldn't be.



As said before , " it is consistant with OPMV " , they cannot say it is 100 % OPMV . 
No vet in Oz is that good yet .


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## TrueBlue (Sep 12, 2008)

Terrible thing to have happen, sorry for your loss, and congrats on comming forward.

This is the reason why i have a closed collection these days. I dont aquire any new animals from anyones collection, with the odd exception of legally wild caught animals from Dave,(pilbarapythons).
Im lucky enough to have everything that a want.


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

I would just like to thank each and every one of you for your support - it has been over whelming. I do feel a little better, and who knows maybe it wasn't it. I just have to keep a close eye on my remaining 3 and hope to heck they don't get it. I suppose it is a risk we take when being animal lovers. The loss is always hard. Thank you all once again.
Mystery


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## caustichumor (Sep 12, 2008)

At the very least this thread might serve as a warning to others about the need for strict quarantine, (while it is not failsafe as in this case) We have all seen threads wanting adult pythons of breeding age to pair up for a breeding season. Quarantine in these cases are surely non-existant. and as it appears there can be a long stage of dormancy with this virus, (it could very well be passed on to any potential offspring?) and then distributed around the country. 
I am already redesigning my quarantine strategies for the new hatchling animals I will be getting next year. There really is not much worse I can imagine then having a bug with the potential to wipe out every animal in your collection.


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## mungus (Sep 12, 2008)

I,m no expert, but the only thing that we consistantly introduce in our collections is FOOD items.
Who knows if this is the source.
I try to have my food items frozen for at least 1 month before defrosting and feeding them to my snakes.
I now only buy from one source that I know is reliable and their rodents are 100% healthy.
They say we are what we eat !!!
Humans die from various things relating to what we consume, so why cant this also imply to reptiles ??
Just a thought.


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## Hetty (Sep 12, 2008)

moosenoose said:


> I've recently lost a female water python. More than likely to an RI. But I'm sure if the vet couldn't diagnose the problem properly they'd be screaming OMPV and waving their hands all over the place.



I agree, whenever a snake dies young it seems to be blamed on OPMV after a necropsy.

Like the others Mystery, sorry for your loss, losing animals is never easy


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## Mystery (Sep 12, 2008)

mungus said:


> I,m no expert, but the only thing that we consistantly introduce in our collections is FOOD items.
> Who knows if this is the source.
> I try to have my food items frozen for at least 1 month before defrosting and feeding them to my snakes.
> I now only buy from one source that I know is reliable and their rodents are 100% healthy.
> ...



I have thought that myself - I have thought of a lot of things over the last couple of weeks. I have always fed frozen thawed. Who knows


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## cougars (Sep 12, 2008)

Thats terrible news I hope your remaining snake are going to be ok.


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## Jonny (Sep 12, 2008)

Vets could get a good idea of whether it was Ophidian Paramyxovirus by looking at the pathology samples of lung,liver and brain tissue.

The way paramyxoviruses replicate would show inclusion bodies in the neurological tissue. I don't have my veterinary text with me so I don't know whether it it is intranuclear or intracytoplasmic inclusion bodies.

The reason why they also check the respiratory tissue is because Paramyxoviruses as a group(from research in paramyxoviruses in other species eg cats) are transmitted through the respiratory system.

If someone had the time and money they could look for the paramyxovirus with a electron microscope in one of the replicating cells of the neurological tissue.

So all this can give the vet a better idea of what killed an animal.

Anyways sorry if this sounds a bit incoherent or doesnt make sense. Im in a bit of a rush to catch a train to Hamm, Germany for the Biggest Reptile Show on earth 

Jonny


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## Hetty (Sep 12, 2008)

mungus said:


> I,m no expert, but the only thing that we consistantly introduce in our collections is FOOD items.
> Who knows if this is the source.



I've had thoughts about this too. People go to such lengths quarantining snakes and scrubbing enclosures with F10, bleach, etc. (even quarantining enclosures) but don't do the same with rodents. I try to breed all my food but sometimes have to buy it in, and the people I buy from are, of course, reptile people.

I know rats wouldn't 'carry' the virus (or viruses) as such, but it makes sense that it could be carried on their fur after the owner has handled snakes?


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## Tatelina (Sep 12, 2008)

Jonny said:


> Anyways sorry if this sounds a bit incoherent or doesnt make sense. Im in a bit of a rush to catch a train to Hamm, Germany for the Biggest Reptile Show on earth


Bragging much?  

Thanks for your imput. Come back to this thread and add more later.


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## wokka (Sep 12, 2008)

I have been a farmer all my life. There is a saying in farming - "When you have live animals you'll have dead animals". Animals have to die eventually and sometimes the cause is unable to be diagnosed. Unfortunately more often than not if that animal is a snake OPMV creeps into the possible causes list. To me OPMV in Australia is becoming a generic term for "dont know what killed a snake"
There will always be new causes of death emerging for all animals and to concentrate all our fears on OPMV may cause us to ignore other causes.
I am sure that there are diseases in Australia more deadly than "American" OPMV and as the numbers of snakes in captivity increases I expect other problem diseases will emerge.
I dont know that the OPMV histeria does anything except perhaps discouraging us from looking further afield at ather causes.
In this case lack of quarantine does not seem to be the cause. It seems the cause may just as easily been bad luck.


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## Sdaji (Sep 13, 2008)

wokka: that has been my main belief for many years now, since before I'd heard of OPMV and other diseases were being used as a catch cry. IBD, Cryptosporidium, Salmonella, it's currently OPMV and we'll probably see something else replace OPMV in the not too distant future (we're overdue for a change). The symptoms, funnily enough, seem to be very consistent over the years, but the names of the diseases change. I've largely kept these thoughts to myself over the years because they are so controversial. I'd say more, but I'd anger too many people. I'll point out that I do think it's entirely possible we have terrible pathogens and I personally go to absurd lengths with quarantine (to the point of OCD).

I like the saying 'If you have animals you'll have dead animals' as it is so true, no matter what. Sometimes animals just die and nothing at all will stop that. Sometimes we need to accept that deaths are just something normal and understand that it wasn't necessarily caused by a boogie man. Saying "I don't know what killed the snake" is so much more helpful than "It was OPMV, oh my god, everyone panic!" if you don't know. Keep in mind we don't actually have the test to confirm OPMV in this country! We need to objectively look at the situation, we need to be realistic, sensible, understand the limitations of our knowledge and not jump to conclusions or panic.

I have often wondered about the food issue, and many people have been offended when I've refused to buy rodents from them even when they've been very cheap. I'm quite particular about where I source my food from and have recently moved to producing it all myself largely for this very reason (supply and price being others). I strongly suspect that many of these outbreaks of sudden deaths come from bad batches of rodents - one supplier distributes a bad batch widely and at the same time snakes all over get sick and/or die. Everyone says "disease outbreak". I find it VERY strange that people virtually never question the food.

As for the mad cow disease idea, I've pondered it too, many times, but I don't believe it is at all likely. Mad cow disease is a prion disease, some people may be familiar with others, such as kuru. Prions are not bacteria or viruses, they are not alive, but they are contagious and deadly. The symptoms fit a prion disease, the strange pattern of outbreaks after lengthy quarantine fits, but I just can't see a likely source of the prions. It would have to be in their food, which would mean that rodents would need to be able to asymptomatically carry it... actually, that's possible because rodents typically only live for a year or two and wouldn't have time to show symptoms... it's very unlikely (I'd discuss it further, but I've already typed too much!) but hey, you never know. If it's a rodent-sourced prion issue, goodness help us!


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## Carpetcleaner (Sep 13, 2008)

Well, it was rats that carried the Bubonic Plague wasn't it? Who knows what else they could carry?


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## wokka (Sep 14, 2008)

mungus said:


> I,m no expert, but the only thing that we consistantly introduce in our collections is FOOD items.
> Who knows if this is the source.
> I try to have my food items frozen for at least 1 month before defrosting and feeding them to my snakes.
> I now only buy from one source that I know is reliable and their rodents are 100% healthy.
> ...



What about newspaper. It seems to be by far the most popular substrate perhaps that is the cause? I seen some very offensive articles?


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## Brigsy (Sep 14, 2008)

Scary scary stuff, It seems to be the people that take all the precortions ( or there the only ones that talk about it) I have seen some snakes kept in some verry ordinary conditions and these people never seem to have any problems with theirs. Thanx for sharing your story and im sure that all that read this will be keeping a close eye on their collections now. Off too scrub some enclosures!!!!!!!


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## pythons73 (Sep 14, 2008)

Sorry 2 hear about your loss,in the last couple weeks ive been searching through some old threats,nearly every1 that had a sick snake and took it 2 a vet,95% of the time they said it was opmv,it may have been,and on the other hand i think the vet doesnt no,so they assume opmv,as Sdaji said there isnt any test in the country to 100% say it is opmv,or it isnt.Anyhow i hope you other 3 get through this terrible situation.


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## Pythonking (Sep 14, 2008)

Generally rats are frozen prior to feeding, I doubt that they would be a cause. I am also a believer in mislabeling by herp vets seeing that the virus can't be 100% diagnosed in australia without samples being sent over seas. There is not currently an active sample of the virus in australia to be tested against for a postive screening.

Condolences Mystery, its never easy losing animals


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## wokka (Sep 14, 2008)

I dont really think its newspaper. I was just bumping the thread to stimulate discussion. I'll have to learn how to use those smiley faces eh.


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## Pythonking (Sep 14, 2008)

lol


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## -Peter (Sep 14, 2008)

Its sad to see the way this thread is going.
Firstly. Its irrelevant what the disease is called. 
There is a virus that behaves in a manner that indicates OPMV.
It isnt a bacteria like salmonalla and it isnt a parasite like cryptosporidium. Both easily diagnosed by the way. 
OPMV has been found in biopsy samples sent to the United States so it is here.
You can argue the nuances of nomenclature till the cows. The fact is if you ignore it you do so at the peril of your animals.
To call good keeping histeria(sic) really does show a lack of common sense.
I would have genuine reservations about buying an animal from someone who doesn't take the threat of disease seriously just because it doesn't have a name that suits them.


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## olivehydra (Sep 14, 2008)

wokka said:


> I dont really think its newspaper. I was just bumping the thread to stimulate discussion. I'll have to learn how to use those smiley faces eh.



Dont be so sure you could be onto something. Due to recycling and therefore the unknown nature of newsprint, studies have shown that newspaper contains large amounts of agonists for certain receptors.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 14, 2008)

sdaji, yes well your on to something there for sure.
Cryptosporidia for example is a parasite belived to be passed on to snakes from mice.
And because of its direct life cycle, and is yet untreatable, can deverstate animals and collections.


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## Pythonking (Sep 14, 2008)

-Peter said:


> Its sad to see the way this thread is going.
> Firstly. Its irrelevant what the disease is called.
> There is a virus that behaves in a manner that indicates OPMV.
> It isnt a bacteria like salmonalla and it isnt a parasite like cryptosporidium. Both easily diagnosed by the way.
> ...


 
your 100% right there peter opmv is in australia, even some samples from wild caught animals have shown antibodies to the virus and not to try to take measures against the possible viruses, bacterial and fungal diseases would be idiocy, but still opmv is thrown around a lot and you can't be 100% sure its opmv unless the samples are sent to the states.


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## wokka (Sep 14, 2008)

-Peter said:


> Its sad to see the way this thread is going.
> Firstly. Its irrelevant what the disease is called.
> There is a virus that behaves in a manner that indicates OPMV.
> It isnt a bacteria like salmonalla and it isnt a parasite like cryptosporidium. Both easily diagnosed by the way.
> ...



Any disease with the possible consequences of OPMV needs to be considered in managing all reptiles, but not to the extend of writing of any other possible causes.


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## HoffOff (Sep 14, 2008)

Sorry to hear of your loss. 

The proper thing to do now would be to contact all those that you have purchased snakes from or sold to over the past year and let them know.


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## Sdaji (Sep 14, 2008)

-Peter said:


> Its sad to see the way this thread is going.
> Firstly. Its irrelevant what the disease is called.
> There is a virus that behaves in a manner that indicates OPMV.
> It isnt a bacteria like salmonalla and it isnt a parasite like cryptosporidium. Both easily diagnosed by the way.
> ...



No one here is suggesting that we should ignore diseases. No one is suggesting that quarantine isn't something you should bother with. Everyone acknowledges that snakes drop dead from something scarey and we would all love to understand it. No one in this thread said Salmonella and Crypto are likely in this case.

The main problem I see is people being overconfident with their unreliable information and guesswork.

What don't you like about the direction the thread is going in?

To the person who doubted rats because they're usually frozen, not everyone freezes them and many viruses aren't killed by freezing. If OPMV was killed by freezing (perhaps it is, but to my knowledge we don't know), it would be a very convenient way of sanitising cage furnishings etc. Bacteria and fungi are not all removed by freezing either. Freezing is most effective at killing parasites such as mites and worms.


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## xycom (Sep 15, 2008)

Pythonking said:


> your 100% right there peter opmv is in australia, even some samples from wild caught animals have shown antibodies to the virus and not to try to take measures against the possible viruses, bacterial and fungal diseases would be idiocy, but still opmv is thrown around a lot and you can't be 100% sure its opmv unless the samples are sent to the states.


 

Firstly, So sorry for your loss....

Secondly, That's what I wanted toask about... OPMV in wild populations. Is there any articles or reports available about it turning up in the wild? Was it properly diagnosed? I handle wild snakes regularly over the warmer months, some even stay for a while. Even though precations are taken I still worry about what may get passed into the wild population from captives or vice versa.

Per


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## JasonL (Sep 16, 2008)

xycom said:


> Firstly, So sorry for your loss....
> 
> Secondly, That's what I wanted toask about... OPMV in wild populations. Is there any articles or reports available about it turning up in the wild? Was it properly diagnosed? I handle wild snakes regularly over the warmer months, some even stay for a while. Even though precations are taken I still worry about what may get passed into the wild population from captives or vice versa.
> 
> Per



Properly diagnosed?? well that 3/4 of the problem......but there is certainly a virus in the wild that is killing snakes in such a way.


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## -Peter (Sep 16, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> No one here is suggesting that we should ignore diseases. No one is suggesting that quarantine isn't something you should bother with. Everyone acknowledges that snakes drop dead from something scarey and we would all love to understand it. No one in this thread said Salmonella and Crypto are likely in this case.
> 
> The main problem I see is people being overconfident with their unreliable information and guesswork.
> 
> What don't you like about the direction the thread is going in?



Actually Sdaji I read your implications that salmonella and crypto could be the cause of deaths attributed to OPMV. In cases where biopsies have been performed this could not be the case. I guess thats what you meant. I must have misunderstood.

The direction I dont like in the thread is the downplaying of the threat of disease. I didnt associate you with that but if you feel it implicates you I cant help that. You do though seem to rattle off lines similar to Franciscus Scheeling which probably makes me undervalue much of your input. 

My main thrust is that whatever you wish to call the disease it is a problem. To actively seek to limit the threat should not be seen as either over reaction or histeria(sic) and much of this thread seeks to do this.


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## Sdaji (Sep 16, 2008)

-Peter said:


> Actually Sdaji I read your implications that salmonella and crypto could be the cause of deaths attributed to OPMV. In cases where biopsies have been performed this could not be the case. I guess thats what you meant. I must have misunderstood.
> 
> The direction I dont like in the thread is the downplaying of the threat of disease. I didnt associate you with that but if you feel it implicates you I cant help that. You do though seem to rattle off lines similar to Franciscus Scheeling which probably makes me undervalue much of your input.
> 
> My main thrust is that whatever you wish to call the disease it is a problem. To actively seek to limit the threat should not be seen as either over reaction or histeria(sic) and much of this thread seeks to do this.



Oh goodness no, I was saying that Salmonella and Crypto are two of the other labels wrongly applied to mysterious deaths, not that they have caused deaths and then been called OPMV (although in the case of Crypto it might have happened that way too).

I didn't think you were associating me with downplaying the threat of disease, I was wondering what in the thread you had issue with. As I said, I often take quarantine to the point of OCD and would be thrilled if everyone else did the same, although I have no doubt we'd still be seeing mysterious death attributed (rightly or wrongly) to OPMV or whatever the next catch cry of the day becomes.

I recently observed an 'outbreak' of something in a collection I help maintain. Many snakes in one quarantine group regurgitated (about 30%), then again at the next feed... I put it down to very cold overnight temperatures, and then again a week later, as well as a few from another quarantine group with one snake dying (displaying symptoms reasonably consistent with neurological disorders for a few days before death). There were great fears and no doubt if I'd posted on APS I'd have had everyone saying "Congratulations on coming forward about a disease outbreak, please inform everyone you've dealt with, take the dead one to the vet and get a necropsy..." (I'm sure it would have come back as consistent with OPMV had I gone to any of several of the local vets). The records were looked at and we saw that the ones from the other group which regurgitated had been fed on the same day as the main group (and thus fed from the same lot of defrosted mice). No snakes were offered mice refused by any other and no cross use of tongs between the groups was used. This made it clear it was something to do with the food, the defrosting method was changed (it had been too warm for too long before being fed off) and for the last six weeks or so there has been no problem or than when the old defrosting method was trialled again as a test, with more regurgitations.

Had OPMV been assumed, the defrosting method would not have been considered, more snakes would have died and an alarm raised falsely. Exactly why the method which had been used without issue suddenly became a problem is unclear (they were being thawed in hot water and left for a set period of time, I think it was about 20-30 minutes). I suspect it was due to a batch of mice coming in with a small but larger than usual amount of bacteria. Usually you'd get away with the defrosting method but not with these mice. Mice from another supplier were trialled with the old method without a problem, but there weren't any of the 'suspect' ones to try on the same day, so we can't say for sure.

I know of several absolutely incorrect vet diagnoses of OPMV, and every time this happens we put information about that case into the pool of knowledge about the disease. If the above case had been diagnosed with OPMV we'd be pulling our hair out trying to work out how it spread (and making false assumptions about how amazingly contagious it is), pointing fingers regarding the source and giving out misinformation about the symptoms.


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## xycom (Sep 16, 2008)

JasonL said:


> Properly diagnosed?? well that 3/4 of the problem......but there is certainly a virus in the wild that is killing snakes in such a way.


 

What do we know know about it ? Is there anything written up on this. Where is it happening?


Per


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## Manda1032 (Sep 17, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> There is absolutely a chance that it may not be OPMV. We know so little about snake viruses, and most vets still don't even deal with bacterial or other issues properly. Sadly, most diagnoses are incorrect, and few vets are willing to say "I can't give you a definitive answer, but I'll still take your money".


 
Doesn't that just irritate you! You go to them for help or in my case you call them to see if they CAN help you before you relocate the poor animal only to find out they wouldn't have a clue, your $100 poorer and you still have a loved pet that dies!!!!!
And they wonder why so many people go to the internet, pet stores or other animal people instead of going to a vet!
I think we need more education in this profession and less money grabbing. If you don't know about exotics (birds, reptiles, fish etc) then tell the person when they call to book a consult. Don't lead them on! Error is a huge issue with the panic that's happening.

Sorry bout that, my 2 cent rave

Mystery, even though I have said it... I'm so very sorry for the loss of your BHP. I was in shock when you first told me and thanks for letting me know of the thread, it has been an interesting read!

I have one huge question to anyone out there who can answer it...... why is it we send samples to the USA? Can't we buy the patent or info off the yank's??? With the huge reptile population here why hasn't Oz gone that extra mile for the info to be brought here?
Seems stupid to be sending it to the US when we may have a greater need for it here.


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## Chris1 (Sep 17, 2008)

Manda1032 said:


> I have one huge question to anyone out there who can answer it...... why is it we send samples to the USA? Can't we buy the patent or info off the yank's??? With the huge reptile population here why hasn't Oz gone that extra mile for the info to be brought here?
> Seems stupid to be sending it to the US when we may have a greater need for it here.



my thoughts exactly,..doesnt make any sense to me either!!!


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## Mystery (Sep 17, 2008)

Manda1032 said:


> Doesn't that just irritate you! You go to them for help or in my case you call them to see if they CAN help you before you relocate the poor animal only to find out they wouldn't have a clue, your $100 poorer and you still have a loved pet that dies!!!!!
> And they wonder why so many people go to the internet, pet stores or other animal people instead of going to a vet!
> I think we need more education in this profession and less money grabbing. If you don't know about exotics (birds, reptiles, fish etc) then tell the person when they call to book a consult. Don't lead them on! Error is a huge issue with the panic that's happening.
> 
> ...



It's just crazy - if there was any doubt with the diagnosis, wouldn't you hope that the vet would in some way say that they weren't 100% sure. That is what I was hoping they were going to say. What are we paying our money for??? Why bother even getting an autopsy??? At the moment my other 3 snakes are fine - saying that it doesn't really make you feel better. It's like a time bomb, will it or won't it go off.


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## Manda1032 (Sep 17, 2008)

Exactly, and you give yourself ulcers over the matter by worring yourself sick over it. By going to them you are paying for an answer. It's the kind of thing you don't want to be shopping around for a better answer for. 
I agree with the 100% sure thing. If I was the vet, I'd be paying for an answer myself. I'd be sending samples to others, pulling the "I owe you" string with mates etc so I COULD LEARN TOO! Sure the chances of a small town vet seeing the same thing again is small BUT the herpetology "disease" is spreading with more and more people getting infected.... more "newbies" to panic about exotic diseases and lifted scales and soggy poos etc it's someting that should be taught as a basic in Uni Vet degrees if your gonna become a pet vet.

Does anyone know anything about the USA test? How can a regular Jill like me get the test done? More to the point how much $$$$ will I be out by !?!

Did you know that up until a couple of years ago bird DNA testing was the same! most of the feathers were sent overseas for the test!


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## Casey (Sep 17, 2008)

I have to say the vet I went to here isn't a herp vet, he's just the vet everyone takes their reptiles to...he was really good I went in there nearlly crying saying "its OPMV" and he reassured me. he told me that their is no reasonable reason to suspect OPMV straight off. He also did some research and contacted other vets as well. He did say that he couldn't be 100% sure but i went there knowing this was the case anyway. 
He is just as frustrated with the not knowing part and was very apologetic that he couldn't do more. and he wants me to call him updating her situation...I'm just saying that not all vets just want the money


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## -Peter (Sep 17, 2008)

what panic?


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## Jonno from ERD (Sep 17, 2008)

G'day guys,

Go easy on your vets, it isn't their fault that Australia isn't able to offer conclusive OPMV test results. The reason the test isn't available here in Australia is money - it costs approximately $1,000,000 and is only able to be used to diagnose OPMV. At an average cost of $200 per test, it would take 5000 tests to break even, and that's excluding running costs such as staff, facilities, advertising, maintanence etc. It just isn't financially viable yet.


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## Dipcdame (Sep 17, 2008)

Such a sad loss Mystery, sorry to hear - never buying another reptile now... I'll stick with what I've got!!!!!!
Good luck for your remaining 'babies'.


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## tattoolizzie (Sep 17, 2008)

Pythonking said:


> even some samples from wild caught animals have shown antibodies to the virus and not to try to take measures against the possible viruses,


 
maybe dumb question, but if they have antibodies does that mean they have had the virus and recovered? or just carriers? don't know a great deal about herps immune systems.

Lizzie


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## Slugga!! (Sep 17, 2008)

I have a theory... It's simple.. and it would be interesting to see if anyone agrees with me...

it goes-
'OMPV' has been around for ages in Australia, and our 'healthy' wild population either has an immunity to it, hasn't been in contact with it, hasn't contracted the virus at all, or is harboring a dormant form of it and showing no outward signs of infection.

i would love for someone to go around to the museums and collect brain biopsies of everything that is in jars- yep, new *and old *specimens, and from as many different species as possible.., and get it all tested, see what the results come back as... i bet it is out there, and has been for ages.. 

it just rears it's ugly head now and then in our private collections.


good PhD or post doc maybe....

as to protecting our collections from it.... be smart, clean, and stick to what we KNOW !!! the answers will come eventually, just a matter of time and money (like everything)

my two cents on this topic too...


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## cement (Sep 17, 2008)

Sorry to hear of your loss mystery . Good luck with your remaining animals.

There is no way I would ever consider using bleach on my herp enclosures. I know a lot of people do, but it is a really bad chemical. Which is why it works so good. Anything that goes in the body , or on the body,
is either poison or healthy. Snakes are forever licking their enclosure maybe cleaning products should be looked at too. Some chemicals can't be processed and just build up.


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## ttaipan (Sep 18, 2008)

Mystery! You have my deepest sympathy mate.

I have heard similar cases only? over my 30 years ( in reptiles)
Luckily i have never experienced or had involvement in anything like your case. 
I would like everyone to note that I have a problem with putting thoughts/experiences on paper; & i dont have any Uni degrees! Just 30 years of Herp experience.

I do respect Sdaji's wisdom/knowledge on this post!
Through my involvement with Herps; "Mystery's" symptoms duplicate what i heard of scenario's 20 - 25 years ago! It was known as Crypto/Spiro. & Salmo. 
Makes me think? These Vets are now fresh out of school! Herp hospitality would've only recently been taught to them as a subject. I speculate that these " new era of Vets" have been taught in the basic problems & expected incoming diseases.

Cheers
ttaipan


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## Manda1032 (Sep 18, 2008)

Slugga!! said:


> I have a theory... It's simple.. and it would be interesting to see if anyone agrees with me...
> 
> it goes-
> 'OMPV' has been around for ages in Australia, and our 'healthy' wild population either has an immunity to it, hasn't been in contact with it, hasn't contracted the virus at all, or is harboring a dormant form of it and showing no outward signs of infection.
> ...


 

Ahh but here is another thought..... when we are too hygenic with our human children they are suseptable to more serious illness ie kill all the germs and the common cold almost kills them. Could we be doing the same to our herps???
We F10 their homes, keep them on paper, disinfect tongs/hands/ equipment etc are we being too clean????
Is keeping them in a hospital/quarantine environment weakening their immune system to the point of where a slight disturbance kills them?
Is our meticulous care of our scaled friends doing them more harm than good?
Should we think of their brethren in the wild and instead try to reinact their lives for our captive charges??? Keep them on soil instead of paper, use logs and rocks instead of manufactured hides from fiberglass and plastic....
After all the wild ones are still there, and they don't live the lives our captive ones do. They have a lot more stresses on their immune system yet they seem to manage and in some cases thrive. 

Gets you thinking, Huh!


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## wokka (Sep 18, 2008)

Manda1032 said:


> Ahh but here is another thought..... when we are too hygenic with our human children they are suseptable to more serious illness ie kill all the germs and the common cold almost kills them. Could we be doing the same to our herps???
> We F10 their homes, keep them on paper, disinfect tongs/hands/ equipment etc are we being too clean????
> Is keeping them in a hospital/quarantine environment weakening their immune system to the point of where a slight disturbance kills them?
> Is our meticulous care of our scaled friends doing them more harm than good?
> ...



Are the wild ones still there??? In the wild snakes die and dissappear and in general dont get autopsied. You wont find what you dont look for!


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## wokka (Sep 18, 2008)

wokka said:


> Are the wild ones still there??? In the wild snakes die and dissappear and in general dont get autopsied. You wont find what you dont look for!



There has probably been a few thousand captive snakes diagnosed in Australia in the last ten years, with" signs consistant with OPMV". That many probably die each day in the wild undiagnosed.


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## BenReyn (Sep 18, 2008)

That's such a shame...


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## Manda1032 (Sep 18, 2008)

But if it's as contageous as we all make it out to be, just being in the same backyard would infect the wild population. Where I live I'm surrounded by all manner of snakes from pythons to elapids and all appear in very good contition, especially with the emerging offspring at the heart of summer here.
What I'm trying to say is with exposure to certain bugs and diseases, living organisims either build an immunity to them or they succumb to them. Could the pathogens found in wild populations be an immunity to the nasties and not the nasty itself.

We see the problems in human children today. Where Mum's and Dad's of today are so vigilant on cleanliness and not giving egg and nut products for fear of allergies etc where M&D's of the past just picked the dummy off the floor, sucked it clean and gave it back to bub! Kids today have a higher intolerance to chemicals and other things in their environment resulting in allergies, athsma etc 
I'm applying this train of thought to our reptiles. If this disease is as bad as everyone says and it can be brought on by the smallest of things to captive collections, wouldn't it have already done huge damage to our wild reptiles?
We are looking at what is bringing it on in our captive collections, food, cross contamination of cages etc but I'm suggesting what if our sterile environments have suppressed the reptile's immune system? By not having contact with basics, things that the wild snake would be exposed to, has that affected our captives immunity?

Just thinking


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## xycom (Sep 18, 2008)

wokka said:


> There has probably been a few thousand captive snakes diagnosed in Australia in the last ten years, with" signs consistant with OPMV". That many probably die each day in the wild undiagnosed.


 
I don't know about others but most of the wild ones I pick up seem to be of good health, apart from a few parasites from time to time. Never have I seen symptoms like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread. 

Maybe the snakes around this area don't carry these sorts of disease or maybe I just haven't picked any up yet with visible signs.


Per


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## wokka (Sep 18, 2008)

xycom said:


> I don't know about others but most of the wild ones I pick up seem to be of good health, apart from a few parasites from time to time. Never have I seen symptoms like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread.
> 
> Maybe the snakes around this area don't carry these sorts of disease or maybe I just haven't picked any up yet with visible signs.
> 
> ...


I am not implying that all wild snakes die from OPMV but rather ,that some may go undetected because of lesser scutiny compared to captive collections.The snakes you pick up probably represent 0.00000000001% of the snakes which die in the wild.


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## JasonL (Sep 18, 2008)

Here's a wild RBB in the Royal NP, showing all signs of a neuro problem, though could be anything really. Snake was sitting in a normal position coiled beside a creek in partial sunlight, though lacked condition, when approached it could not control itself to any degree, just flopped around in the one spot.


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## xycom (Sep 18, 2008)

wokka said:


> I am not implying that all wild snakes die from OPMV but rather ,that some may go undetected because of lesser scutiny compared to captive collections.The snakes you pick up probably represent 0.00000000001% of the snakes which die in the wild.


 
I didn't mean to cast any doubt on the fact that OPMV or something similar exists in the wild. It's just something I haven't come across yet.

Was the RBB ever tested?


Per


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## JasonL (Sep 19, 2008)

xycom said:


> I didn't mean to cast any doubt on the fact that OPMV or something similar exists in the wild. It's just something I haven't come across yet.
> 
> Was the RBB ever tested?
> 
> ...



No, it was in a National Park and I'm not going to fork out $$$$$$ of dollars to get a maybe answer on a wild snake, I know for certain that such diseases are 100% in the area.


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## indicus (Sep 19, 2008)

MMMM; another OMPV thread.....
It's healthy to discuss a threat; that we all face in our hobby.
However the more one reads; the more confusing and conflicting it becomes.
For a number of years now; I've been of the firm belief that no one has the answers....and as such; quite a few of us will not bring any new herps into our collections.
The testing available in Australia at present; IMO is poor at best; with the results being far from conclusive; either way.
I personally will not argue whether one's opinion is right or wrong....however believe that until further research determines the actual way in which this virus is transmitted; I for one have; and will have to unfortunately take extreme steps; to try avoiding the misfortune others have undergone by contracting this virus in their collection.
In the last few years; I've had a few herp mates feel that I've victimise them; by not allowing them in my herp room; or handle any of my animals...Is that enough? I certainly hope so.
Pedantic?; maybe; however I don't have the answers; only the knowledge that those that supposedly do; argue; and are seen to be; still at a loss as to how this virus is in actual fact transmitted.
It would devastate me; as I feel for those that have lost animals or collections that in most cases have taken years of work; effort and finances to build.....can I take that chance? simply no!
After several years of closely watching the progression of this virus within the hobby; I'm of the firm belief that this virus may very well be apparent in most collections (hope I'm wrong).
If I'm correct; what triggers it?....stress?; poor hygiene?; sudden drops or gains in temp's?; like others; I really don't have the answers to make such assumptions.
The year before last; a local farmer asked me to remove a large Cape York carpet that he had observed coiled beside his pump for the past week.....
Ok; I'm not a Vet; however I've seen and read enough of OMPV to make the decision; that I wanted nothing to do with it's removal; all the classic symptoms....overreaction?; maybe; maybe not?.
Later having discussed what I'd seen with a local Vet who works for Parks; was informed that she had in fact had several wild pythons come to her that season; that were to later test positive OMPV...poor testing procedure; who knows?....were they brought to her by keepers who have a collections that may in fact have OMPV present?; I don't know.
To many questions; so few answers; it's a worry for sure.
What can you do? 
Regardless of the pro's and con's; the information available is certainly very vague at best; and as such; those that wish to build a collection; please do take the appropriate care in quarantine of any new additions; regardless of where or "WHO" you obtained them from....there's some good papers and articles written as a guide to correct quarantine procedures; well worth taking the time to find out.
It would be most beneficial that those who are the frontrunners in breeding pythons within this country; took it upon themselves; to get together and donate some time and finances towards further research; not only to protect their lively hood; the future of their industry; but maybe more importantly; our wild counterparts.
"Win a Snake?"....how about; "Donate a red-back and save our Pythons"....who knows it may very well work in your favour; where do I sign up?


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## Casey (Sep 19, 2008)

JasonL said:


> No, it was in a National Park and I'm not going to fork out $$$$$$ of dollars to get a maybe answer on a wild snake, I know for certain that such diseases are 100% in the area.



Just wondering if you notified the National Parks rangers regarding this, they may have wanted to get some tests done on it at their cost, considering it was in a park under their management.


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## HerpDoc (Sep 19, 2008)

Yet another OPMV and yet another thread littered with misinformation and misquoting.

Peter what in the hell gives you the right to spout off at the mouth misquoting me and misrepresenting information that I have presented in a scientific logical manner? You clearly have never listened to a thing I have to say yet when other people present the exact same argument you are willing to at least listen. Please tell me exactly when and where I have said that OPMV does not exist in Australia. All I have ever said is that there is no definitive diagnosis so you must be careful. I agree with Sadji there are many deaths in snakes that may have wrongly been attributed to OPMV in this country. Peter get your facts straight.

As far as sending tissue off to the US for testing we can forget that idea. They will not accept the tissue and by the time the samples get there they are no good for testing. I know this because I had this conversation with Elliot Jacobson in person when I was in the States last year. I too am frustrated with a lack of ability to perform accurate testing. Additionally an independent study has cast much doubt on the validity and worth of the haemagluttination inhibition test that they use to detect antibodies. There are about 4 labs that offer the test over there with considerable variability between labs regarding positive/negative results. 

As far as other disease entities that have been discussed in this post:

Cryptosporidium does cause disease in both lizards and snakes. It does not come from mice as was previously thought. Transmission is directly from reptile to reptile and the species of Cryptosporidium (C. saurophilum and C. serpentis) do not affect non-reptilian species. However, mice do carry C. parvum which is not infectious to reptiles but can pass through their gastrointestinal system to be infectious to their handlers. Caution should always be taken when handling rodents and this is a good reason to feed frozen/thawed animals. A positive diagnosis of Cryptosporidium can be made a variety of ways and your vet can advise you of these if he is suspicious. Currently no effective treatment for cryptosporidium is available commercially.

Salmonella does cause disease in reptiles despite what people say. Symptoms are variable and can range from gastrointestinal disease to systemic illness depending on the location of the bacteria in the body. Again a diagnosis can be made based on pathology and culture of organisms in non-intestinal tissue.

As far as the vet bashing goes it may be time to give that a bit of a break. Yes there are some gaps in the information but that exists in any field of medicine, from traditional dog and cat to human as well. It also doesn't help our cause when vets give advice and people (aka Peter) elect not to take it because for some reason they believe that they know better. There is a reason why we have spent so long at uni and some of us are doing further study. It may shock you to believe that we actually do know stuff. We will never ever know all the answers but that is what motivates us to keep searching. You wouldn't take your medical advice off an internet forum if you were being treated for a serious illness so why would you risk it for your pets?

When dealing with any animal (or people for that matter) there is always going to be disease, that simply is a fact of life. It is up to you to minimize the risks. If you properly quarantine all of your animals and practice good hygiene and feeding regimes you will be doing your best to reduce the risks of introducing illness. Get faecal exams done and take animals to the vet the minute they show signs of sickness - that way we can maximize our chances of a successful outcome. 

Get post-mortem examinations done on all animals that die suspiciously and take it to vets that are comfortable doing this, especially for things such as OPMV (tissue should be stored in gluteraldehyde for EM and not just for histopath).


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## -Peter (Sep 19, 2008)

Whats the point, tell them what you like Frank. I may publish the transcripts from the OPMV chat sessions you took part in one day. Along with Danny's response to your posts.


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## HerpDoc (Sep 19, 2008)

Go ahead Peter I have nothing to hide


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## BROWNS (Sep 19, 2008)

HerpDoc,you say to properly quarantine our animals yet what does "properly quarantine" mean?As has been said numerous times we don't know enough about this disease yet and correct me if I'm wrong as I couldn't be bothered going through the thread again but the starter of the thread mentioned there had been no incoming or new animals introduced to the collection for about 2 years,so taking that into account along with the small amount of information regarding OPMV on the whole,how long must we properly quarantine for to know new additions are safe and clear of this bloody horrible disease?Also I absolutely agree that getting an autopsy done with all the proper samples being taken to hopefully rule out other possible diseases or pathogens etc but then again what's the point in getting an autopsy done if we can not even get a 100% conclusive result wether the cause of death or the symptoms shown were from OPMV???

I myself have also been through this horrible disease losing my whole collection basically other than some animals kept in different rooms and had several autopsies done on suspect animals,animals showing unusual symptoms and animals that suddenly dropped dead overnight that had shown no symptoms whatsoever previously and all results came back saying the same as many others have been told which was conclusive with OPMV but if we can't know for sure 100% then maybe the causes of death and other symptoms etc were from something else?I know nothing really about these kinds of diseases other than having seen the wide range of symptoms and deaths observed in my own collection losing many thousands of dollars worth of animals which nearly wrecked me,broke my heart watching animals I'd raised from hatchlings and had even bred from and nearly causing me to not wanting to keep reptiles ever again not to mention the stress etc and costs indured by myself,I didn't want to talk to anyone and basically withdrew from the whole scene but have now again slowly built up another nice collection but I have not quarantined any of these newly aquired animals for 2 years and many I haven't even had for 1 year.What I want to know is what is the point of getting an autopsy as you recommend if OPMV can not be proved to be 100% the cause of symptoms and deaths?I do of course realise an autopsy can help rule out other possible causes but if it can't 100% prove OPMV to be the cause even when all symptoms etc appear to be consistant with OPMV why bother?There are of course people who have had animals die for no apparent reason and have swept it under the rug without getting autopsies etc either because they felt it wasn't warranted or they couldn't afford it continuing to go about business.Some people may even have let suspect animals go in the wild which would of course be completely illegal,immoral and just straight out blatantly disgusting but who knows what some people do???How many have had animals with RI problems and eventually died?RI being one of the many symptoms of the disease and they didn't get autopsies and possibly didn't know any better even though they should have??? 

It seems to be a downhill losing battle with stuff all being done to get the proper tests that can 100% prove OPMV to be the disease and cause of the wide variety of symptoms and deaths of countless animals.Why is there not more being done about this,as the fact is whatever this disease is that seems to be consistant with OPMV it is not going to just go away and isn't just a few isolated cases, the hobby is riddled with whatever this disease is along with cases from the wild which could have massive implications right now and in the future.

.As I have said before and as indicus has said above,why aren't the big breeders at the forefront of this hobby or even everyone in the hobby doing their bit to get the tests needed to prove OPMV into Australia.Instead of competitions for expensive pythons or giving animals away why don't we all get together and do what we can to get the right people to get these tests introduced to our hobby as from what I can tell all or most histopath work etc is performed by the very same place Australia wide being IDEX "Please correct me if I'm wrong?"The reason I say this is that even though there are many people who have been lucky enough to not having had to deal with this problem it is still very close to home and involves everone breeding ,selling and buying new reptiles and if there's so much uncertanty about OPMV such as how long to quarantine for to how it is transmitted,we are all at some sort of risk!!! I also think that with the many herp meetings where animals are bought and sold or auctioned etc to events such as Reptile Expos I find these sort of things quite frightening and threatening to the industry on the whole.

Here's just one very wierd example of this disease.I had one specific pair of gorgeous jungles mating at the time I had an animal drop dead for no apparent reason which bred the previous year being the start to my dealings with this disease,then had the female jungle of this specic pair which had been copulating for some time start to show symptoms which I had euthanised and autopsied along with getting all the necessary samples sent away to be tested which came back to be apparently positive for OPMV and she also happened to be gravid at the time "approximately 3 years ago" and I had obviously missed ovulation.Anyway the male she had been copulating with is still alive and well today but kept in a seperate cage away from everything else and never showed any symptoms whatsoever and I have recently purchased an animal to do a bit of testing for myself. I have had the animal purchased not too long ago being a female jungle in with this original male that had copulated with the jungle which had been originally my first animal tested apparently positive for OPMV about 3 years ago.The recently purchased animal and original seemingly healthy male are both together now and have been together for a while.The recently purchased female appears to be fine at present and possibly even gravid as she's fat as a pig and I want to see what the outcome of this will be and if the original male that survived was now a carrier or not and passes it to the recently purchased female or if they both stay fiine and healthy and possibly reproduce?I will not and have not sold any animals from the time I began having serious problems and have no intention of doing so in the future.I did advertise some animals I'd bred in a different room than the one room which was affected but then decided to keep them due to not wanting any possible repucussions. 

Anyway that's my little rant and I just wish we would all get together to do something to get the badly needed tests for OPMV to the right place for this to be done in Australia or maybe some of the much larger breeders etc would do something about it as fact is it affects all of us in one way or another such as many people not wanting to purchase any new animals ever again right to the people who have been directly affected with this disease losing entire collections who won't ever get back into the hobby again which really is a shame.The risks are high and there have been many many more cases of this disease in our hobby than most people seem to think and something has to be done about it pronto as it's only going to get worse!!!!


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## BROWNS (Sep 19, 2008)

Well i see I wasted my time writing that post?No answers for me or any others wanting to know the same HerpDoc,Iguess you'd rather bicker and get personally involved in arguing with one person than give possible answers to others as well as myself on some of the questions asked.

Actually seems to me you only posted and got involved in the thread to have a dig at Peter rather than give some answers or advice which may be helpful to others...typical APS,wonder why I even bother posting these days as most times I do the thread comes to an abrupt stop,go figure??????????Take your personal bickering elsewhere you bot sound like a couple of kids in the school yard...dobber dobber,I'm telling on you!!!!Fairdinkum!!!!!!!!!


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## wokka (Sep 19, 2008)

Give the guy a go. He's only had a couple of hours. He might be doing some REAL work.


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## xycom (Sep 19, 2008)

What can we do to have the tests introduced here? 
Do we need to raise a bucket load of money? 
Do we need to pressure companies like IDEX?
Do we need to lobby the government?
Perhaps all of the above?


This sort of thing not only threatens the hobby but also Australias Ecology. 

Per


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## The Devil (Sep 19, 2008)

BROWNS said:


> Well i see I wasted my time writing that post?No answers for me or any others wanting to know the same HerpDoc,Iguess you'd rather bicker and get personally involved in arguing with one person than give possible answers to others as well as myself on some of the questions asked.
> 
> Actually seems to me you only posted and got involved in the thread to have a dig at Peter rather than give some answers or advice which may be helpful to others...typical APS,wonder why I even bother posting these days as most times I do the thread comes to an abrupt stop,go figure??????????Take your personal bickering elsewhere you bot sound like a couple of kids in the school yard...dobber dobber,I'm telling on you!!!!Fairdinkum!!!!!!!!!



Geeezzzzz Andrew, it took me 2 hours to read your post.


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## HerpDoc (Sep 19, 2008)

Hi Browns,

The question of proper quarantine is a difficult one as well. Here are my suggestions:

All new animals should be housed in a separate room some distance from your existing collection (better if at a totally different address but probably not practical for most people).
Each quarantine room should have its own set of equipment, cleaning materials etc that do not leave that room and only to be used on those animals.
Use good quality cleaning solution such as F10.
At least get faecals done on new animals.
Service quarantine animals AFTER servicing collection animals then change clothes/shower etc.
Once a room has a quarantine animal in it another animal cannot be added, i.e. the quarantine period is the time that the last animal went into the room. If you buy a new animal when you already have a quarantine animal then the new guy also has to go into a separate room etc etc.
Do not handle your animals after handling other peoples animals until you have showered.
The quarantine period is purely arbitrary. I have seen a number of single animals that have had no contact with other animals for 4-6 years develop clinical signs of IBD, OPMV etc and come back "positive" on histopathology so to give an exact length of time is very difficult. It is impractical to quarantine for this long so I would recommend at least 1-2 months if you do all of the above, obviously though the longer your quarantine period the less likely you are to introduce disease. It is up to you what is most practical. 
The only way to be 100% safe is to never buy any animals ever again, so I guess it is up to you to assess the relative risk.


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## BROWNS (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks for your answers HerpDoc,much appreciated but still makes the whole OPMV thing pretty worrying for everyone that's for sure.

Sorry Nev , I'll go into it in more depth for you later,got to water the roses now LOL


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