# R.I.P. Ivory



## Jeannine (Aug 19, 2010)

*A little while ago i went to feed and give her some water and found her dead 

she had been sleeping but every few days i would get her out and give her some water via an eyedropper and a feed of either insects or vegies, she would eagerly take the water and food she was also opening her bowels every few days and only went 2 nights ago 

the last few feeds i noticed some blood when she had eaten, so i had a look but only once could i see a little blood around the area of her 'gum' near her back teeth, nothing seemed to be worrying her though :?

earlier this morning i noticed her yawning so i decided to feed her when we came back from town with fresh crickets etc

i went to take her out a little while ago and her mouth was fused shut with dry blood and sand from the bottom of the tank, this i was cleaning up only to realise she was dead :cry:

i have done nothing wrong that i can work out, her enclosure's hot end varied between 28 to 32 (this depended on if the heater was on or not) but i did add a small 2 watt head pad under the sand where she loved to sleep, if i put her anywhere else in the tank she would move to the warm spot, this was only a tiny heat pad that let out a very small heat source?

over head she had a red light and a ceramic one, was putting her basking light back in tomorrow 

what have i done wrong? 

i am kicking myself in case i have caused her suffering 

i am going to miss my little girl, she gave us so much love and affection, who says reptiles cant love *


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## byron_moses (Aug 19, 2010)

sorry for ur loss


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## lloydy (Aug 19, 2010)

Sorry for your loss also..

What was she?


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## Jeannine (Aug 19, 2010)

*thank you 

ivory was a gorgeous bearded dragon

this was her a few nights ago after having had something to eat and drink *

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/chatten/DSCF7238.jpg


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## wayneobro (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey Jeannine ;( I'm so so sorry , how old was she ?


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## Serpentess (Aug 19, 2010)

Sorry for your loss. Is it still early enough to take her to the vets for a necropsy?


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## daniel1234 (Aug 19, 2010)

Sorry for your loss.
Blood around gums? Hmm. 
Giving her water with eye dropper? So you were having problems with her for a while then?


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## Jeannine (Aug 19, 2010)

*wayne i got her around xmas time 

no chantelle, she has been put to rest in the garden and unfortunately none of the vets here have much knowledge on dragons, so we have to plod our way thru things

its pathetic really considering where we live (broken hill) that we have no qualified reptile vet here to even deal with the natives, only ones that might be able to help if needed would have been the bloke who does the reptiles for the local wildlife rescue service 

i am ANGRY at myself that i have somehow caused this to her and it makes me sick to the stomach that in some way she has suffered before passing 

she did die quickly because she was moving earlier on, she was yawning which made me grab some fresh crickets so i could feed her and give her some water to keep her hydrated*


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## Jeannine (Aug 19, 2010)

*hi daniel

no no problems, she was brumating, i used the eye dropper to give her some water, i would drop a small bit on the front of her mouth and she would stick out her tongue and start lapping up the water, she would drink a couple of droppers full of water before indicating she had had enough 

the first time i noticed the blood i cleaned up the mouth area with a damp cotton bub, had a look but could only see a little bit which 'appeared' to be coming from the area at the back near her teeth? i thought maybe she had either bitten her gum or perhaps part of the cricket had scratched her so kept an eye on it, it never bled a lot and i was still a little convinced it may have been from her food

last time she ate she had some dandelion and some grated carrot, she happily ate this as carrots were her favorite food and there was NO bleeding, i checked her a few hours later still no bleeding, checked the next day and still no bleeding, no bleeding last night and all appeared ok earlier when i seen her yawning and stretching her mouth

yet a few hours later her mouth was fused shut with dry blood and sand had stuck on the outside of her mouth, i wonder if because she couldnt open her mouth she couldnt breath? is that at all possible? *

*i am starting to wonder if it was the heat pad? even though it was such a small wattage maybe it got her insides too hot? oh god i hope not *


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## Lollypop (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey I'm so sorry for your loss, never nice to lose one:cry::cry:

Reading thru, & this is pure observation from what you've described, if she was brumating, to start with u should never have disturbed her.
When they brumate, you provide them with clean water, & if they do wake up, just put out some salad so they have the choice if they want to eat anything - NO live feeders are given until you're sure they're awake for good.
Secondly, for a central, your enclosure was way too cold. Now I don't know if you'd cut down your heat in order for her to brumate, so that would've been fine had u not fed or watered her.
BUT, to feed a beardie under those basking temps, she had no way of digesting them properly. Unfortunately. The temps need to be 38-44C at the basking spot, with them physically sitting under that most of the day, with a cool temp of 28C approx.
She doesn't look well in the pick.
With reptiles it's unfortunate that sometimes you have to learn from your mistakes in order to get it right, but it works that way sometimes.
It in no way makes the loss any easier. Sorry once again. RIP Ivory


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## Chris1 (Aug 19, 2010)

really sorry for your loss Jeannine, its the worst feeling losing a beardy and not knowing why.

i have to agree with Lollypop on no live feeders during brumation, ive heard lots of people give them a drink from time to time tho,..

the theory behind the no live feeders is that they rot in their tummies at low temps and make them sick, but that doesnt explain the blood,...could she have eaten something sharp that cut her mouth and peirced her insides?

hope ur ok.

Chris.


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## Jeannine (Aug 19, 2010)

*thank you lollypop and it is possible i have done things wrong, didn't realise you shouldn't feed them like that, i understood for their first brumation not to let them go into too deep a sleep and to keep their fluids etc up, she wouldn't drink from a bowl anyway 

i was going to get a new basking lamp as i dropped her's when i moved something the other day, i forgot it today and was going to grab one in the morning, i thought the temps were ok considering she was doing nothing but sleeping

i know we all learn from our mistake's and im angry at myself that my mistake may have cost her her life and that she may have suffered

chris thank you too, the first time i found dry blood was the day after a feed, i had no idea then where it was coming from, so i moistened her mouth and cleaned it up with a damp cotton bud and when giving her a feed later i noticed there was fresh blood again, so using a cotton bud i wiped the area it appeared to be coming from and noticed a faint bleeding from an area to the back of her mouth near her teeth on what would be our 'gum'? but it was only a little bit and i thought maybe she had cut it when eating the cricket on a sharp piece of it like a leg etc but wasn't sure and there wasn't a lot of it

the next time i went to feed her i noticed dry blood again and cleaned it up, this time i fed her some carrot and dandelion and there was no blood at all from her

as i said this morning i seen her yawning so whatever happened happened very quickly 

i am curious though and just realised but i have noticed she was placing her nose against the cord to the heat mat, i don't think there was any heat coming off the cord but is it possible she may have bitten it or something? ive looked at it but cant see any damage or such 

just trying to process what i have done wrong so i will NEVER EVER do it again to another creature *

*im sure i will get there chris and thank you again for your concern *


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## JAS101 (Aug 19, 2010)

sorry for your loss just so u know next time , beardies and heat pads/mats dont mix . beardies need heat from above and not from below, i did read somewere that they cant sence the heat from there tummys [ underneath them] ? can anyone confirm or is it a myth?


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## Jeannine (Aug 19, 2010)

*thank you zoojas

she had heat from above as well, ceramic heat lamp and a red one 

ive heard the same thing about heat mats/pads etc but i thought it would be safe as it was only a small 2 watt (bought to breed crickets originally) and it was under about 2" of sand, i was using it because i had been feeding her so didnt want her to get compacted so thought a 'little' heat might help 

guess it didnt *


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## Chris1 (Aug 19, 2010)

zoojas, theyre not so heat sensitive from underneath and the main danger of heat mats/rocks is mostly burns.
(which i believe is true for most reptiles as ive seen them basking on the sides of roads that i cant comfortably walk across,...)
(my free ranging beardies get heat from sitting on microwaved heat bags and theyre fine)

Jeannine, it could be anything, an infection from the cut possibly leading to blood poisoning,...its not necessarily your fault, beardies can just not wake up from brumation even if theyve been undisturbed.
its very unlikely that an autopsy would have given u a conclusive result anyway.

beardies dont need to brumate, (im tp scared to let mine) so if you get another one and arent comfortable going thru the brumation process again, just keep him or her awake.


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## Jeannine (Aug 19, 2010)

*thank you chris

i wasn't comfy letting her go thru the first one, but she put herself into it and nothing i attempted would stop her going off to sleep, the instinct must of been strong within her

hubby has suggested to me to look around, not to replace our little girl but to fill the hole that is inside of me, our 'children, all of them' are my babies who i give all my love to cause i cant give it to my children or grand children so my babies are spoilt rotten 

microwave heat bags are a great suggestion i will try to remember that for the future

i think i shall go for a while and have some time to myself to think and remember my little girl

ohhhhhh also lately i have gone back to burning oils because of some health issues and i am using ones for relaxation etc, they are next to my computer and the lizard tanks are on the other side of the room now i just had a thought does anyone know if the 'burning oils' could have had an affect on her? if its even remotely possible i will have to move them out of the room or toss them totally 
*


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## ezekiel86 (Aug 19, 2010)

Sorry for your loss..
RIP lil Fella !


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## n1cky83 (Aug 19, 2010)

I feel for you I have found brumation a worry, I really dont like it I prefer to know how they are going when they are alert every day, 

Take care and dont beat your self up too much


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## pythrulz (Aug 19, 2010)

sorry for your loss too jeannine dont have any lizards yet but recently cuddled a beardie seem placid lovable creatures


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## PhilK (Aug 19, 2010)

First of all sorry for your loss, it is always tough to lose a pet. There is some stuff here that doesn't sound right to me, so I hope you don't mind me speaking my mind? Hopefully what I have to say will help you with your next lizard.



Jeannine said:


> ...no bleeding last night and all appeared ok earlier when i seen her yawning and stretching her mouth


To me that doesn't seem right, and it certainly isn't an indication of being hungry.. sounds like she had mouth rot or something to me.. very possible with the cold temps you had in there.. yawning/stretching the mouth is not normal behaviour apart from very sporadically.


> i wonder if because she couldnt open her mouth she couldnt breath? is that at all possible?


No that isn't possible, they breath through their nostrils, not through their mouths.. perhaps her nostrils were clogged up too?


> i am starting to wonder if it was the heat pad? even though it was such a small wattage maybe it got her insides too hot? oh god i hope not


 Also not likely so don't worry there.

In the future if you see blood in a pets mouth seek help.. it generally isn't normal. She certainly didn't look very healthy in that photo.. I would say the temps you had her on were probably causative, but we all must learn by our mistakes.. I lost two sand swimmers through my own stupid fault and it kills you, so I know how you feel. Remember also brumation isn't needed, so maybe next time don't bother with it?


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## Tikanderoga (Aug 19, 2010)

Sorry for your loss Jeannine.
I don't have beardies myself, but I always admire the water dragons and the blue tongues around our house. It was bad enough when I had to dispose of a dead one from the garden - found next to a dead cane toad.


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## Jeannine (Aug 20, 2010)

*to everyone who posted here you have my many heartfelt thanks 

philk your comments (and others) are the reason i posted about her in here so i could understand what could have possibly gone wrong and how i could avoid it in the future, as i said i at first thought the blood may have been from some bit of sharpish edge of a cricket like its leg, mouth rot does sound like it could be the culprit and not something i knew about 

while the mistakes i made caused her suffering and eventually her death i intend to learn from it so it will never happen again and from now on i will take straight to a vet and 'hope' they will be able to find out what is wrong

no from what i can remember her nostrils were still clean and didnt appear to be clogged 

 http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/member/jfjellstrom-23837/jfjellstrom they are cuddly creatures, she loved her cuddles 

she also accepted every other animal in this house as her family even the cats, who right from the day she came to us were learning she is part of the family and were not giving her any hassles when out, the goal was to allow her when she was big enough to roam the computer room without being hassled by the other animals *


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## Jeannine (Aug 20, 2010)

this was titled 'Mexican stand off' the cats name is brandy


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## Reptilequeen (Aug 20, 2010)

*Aww so sorry*

Im really sorry for your loss, its awful loosing a reptile because they have a special way of stealing your heart away!And yep they do give you affection, all my reps have with me. You did your best and your little beardie knows that (theyre smarter than we are)I have one Cunningham skink 7 years old he lost his mate a year ago due to liver failure which is quite common in cunninghams. All he has is a big heat rock on thermostat control, I keep it on for him all the time as he cant burn himself. And during the day I put him in his enclosure outside in the sun and fesh air usually I need to watch him constantly to see that he isnt overheating he's got part sun part shade. Its easy for me because I work from home so Im there all the time for him. He spends alot of his time out of his enclosure he's just there to sleep or be outside. I haven't ever had artificial lighting atall for my lizards, only my snake. But he thrives and has done for 7 years, he has a great life. But you have done really well its not your fault your beardie died, reps are funny creatures all of a sudden they can just go down hill for what seems like no apparent reason. I just enjoy my fella everyday, cuase I just never know, like his mate he just all of a sudden went, and I kind of still blame myself, but theyre in capitivity and things sometimes can just happen. She looked a beautiful little beardie too!! RIP :cry:


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## PhilK (Aug 20, 2010)

Also remember Jeannine that reptiles are very good at masking signs of illness.. if they acted sick in the wild they would be eaten so they are very good at pretending to be fine until the last moment when their bodies can no longer do so and they crash out. It happens with birds a lot too and makes it hard to find illness early.

My advice now is to certainly get another beardie or different type of lizard and get right back on the horse. Post plenty of questions here and do lots of reading and you will be right!


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## Lollypop (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm with u PhilK!


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 20, 2010)

A few things worth considering...

Lizards (& snakes) either are 'brumating,' or they are not, there are no halfway measures. The physiological changes which induce brumation are significant, and it is likely you caused the death of the animal by continually disturbing it, and pumping it with food & water when it couldn't deal with the input. I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but it truly concerns me when inexperienced keepers feel they must interfere with natural processes, which, after all are simply a reflection of the animal's natural heritage and adaptation to the climate & habitat in which they live.

Bearded Dragons are compliant lizards, which is why they are popular as pets. They do, however, only 'tolerate' human interference - they don't seek to become 'part of the family', although they might seem to take pleasure in human company. Even though bred for generations in captivity, they are definitely not domestic animals, and you do them a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

The fact that your lizard consistently sought to brumate should have told you that it needed to be left alone, probably for months, until the days get longer and the weather warms up. It simply does not need food and water during that time, although you could probably make water available should it waken occasionally. If it was active, hungry and thirsty, it would have been out and about constantly.

There seems to be a great tendency for inexperienced keepers to overmanage their reptiles (which have been doing fine without human interference for millions of years) and to worry about the slightest change in behaviour.

These animals are largely seasonal in their behaviour, and for very good reason. They are not dogs, cats, or birds which have to maintain significant food & water intake remain active year round. The scented candles will have nothing to do with the death of your lizard.

Jamie


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## sandswimmer (Aug 20, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Bearded Dragons are compliant lizards, which is why they are popular as pets. They do, however, only 'tolerate' human interference - they don't seek to become 'part of the family', although they might seem to take pleasure in human company. Even though bred for generations in captivity, they are definitely not domestic animals, and you do them a disservice by suggesting otherwise.
> 
> Jamie


 
I'm glad someone said it. Why do people always feel the need to anthropomorphise their pets? I am sorry for your loss, but before you purchase another lizard you must realise that they do best when essentially left to their own devices


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 20, 2010)

"she also accepted every other animal in this house as her family even the cats,"

This is a worry. Bearded Dragons have no interest in networking with your family or other pets - they don't live in families. "Family" is your concept, not one a dragon would even be aware of. It was probably your need to be needed that killed your animal, when you should have understood when it NEEDED to be left alone.

Before you get another reptile, please do a bit of decent research so you have an understanding of what the reptile requires of you, rather than the other way around.

All reptiles need in captivity for a long, healthy life is appropriate environment, appropriate temperatures, food and water (obviously at the appropriate times). Anything more you offer them is for you, not them.

Reptilequeen, your very silly post is one of the reasons why reptiles often have too many expectations placed upon them as pets. Reptiles are not appropriate pets for needy people.

Jamie.


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## LadyJ (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't know that I could read this without replying...

First, and, most importantly, I'm so sorry for your loss Jeannine... I know I always bring it up but I recently suffered the loss of my blue-tongue, Arby. I know how horrible it is and that the pain will never just go away, but I can tell you it does get a lot better with time. I've done a few things to remember him (which, judging by the response of other posters, will be merely laughed at and mocked), but if you want me to go into some things that have helped me please message me (goes for anyone, I'm usually open with this... but feeling uncomfortable now).

Perhaps you did make a few mistakes but it really is easy to see how much you cared for gorgeous Ivory, your heart was in the right place and I believe it does no harm to the animal to place sentimentality on it, you did all the things you thought were right.

This does however sound a lot similar to the loss of Arby, whom I can only speculate suffered mouth-rot. I'll have to say that I am with the other posters that mentioned studying and learning a lot more about these beautiful animals, you can never learn enough and what may seem like the basics is always important to continue to learn.

But anyway... I hope you can learn a bit more and get another reptile soon. For those that say your animal doesn't 'need' or 'want' your attention or care, don't listen to them. It's a lot wiser to put your heart into an animal and try to give it the best, really let it into your life, than merely see them as a 'collection' (the mere thought of treating animals as something to be collected like stamps makes my stomach turn...).

Reptiles to have to be treated differently and they'e truely not a companion animal, but they still are amazing creatures and it doesn't mean those that are sentimental on the subject should be shunned.

I know that I've just snuffed out my low-profile within this forum and a lot of people won't agree with me... but I really do wish the best Jeannine and to others, please have a heart.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 20, 2010)

LadyJ, a lot of what you have said actually concurs with what I've stated. Of course you can, and maybe should, be sentimental about your animals of any sort, but that doesn't mean you turn them into 'little people with scales." They are simply NOT little people with scales, and keepers do a great disservice to their animals by trying to see human characteristics in their behaviour.

I've had reptiles for decades, and my success in keeping and breeding certainly does come from 'putting my heart' into their care and welfare. I am not unsentimental either, I just know what reptiles are, what they need, and what their expectations of me are, and being realistic about it. My attitude is not born of being a 'stamp collector' - that is just as bad as anthropomorphising a reptile 'pet' in my opinion.

I actually really enjoy seeing a pet such as a Bearded Dragon being treated as a cherished creature, but not seeing it's tolerant behaviour interpreted as some sort of love affair with humanity. That removes all natural dignity from the animal, and to me is indicative of a very needy person who actually imposes on the animal in their care.

I guess this attitude offends some people... ah well, you can please some of the people...

Of course I am guilty of making some awful mistakes in years past, which cost some of the anmals in my care their lives, but in the 50s, 60s & 70s there was scant info around with regard to reptile husbandry. My argument is that there is just SO MUCH INFORMATION around now, there is little excuse for failure.

Learn about reptiles, treat your charges as reptiles (and not little scaly people) and you shouldn't go wrong. 

Jamie.


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## redbellybite (Aug 20, 2010)

Sorry for your loss ...losing a pet no matter what type ,if it holds a part of your heart, it hurts to see them pass over...
after reading this thread regardless of how clinical Jamie may come across to some people on here ..you have to agree he makes alot of sense now. maybe you should actually send him a pm and ask for some information about keeping etc before getting any new type of reptile ..
and leave the 'pink fluffy bunny hugging 'type of posts in this thread------- just that LEAVE THEM ...


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't think it's enough to say 'don't worry, it's not your fault,' or offer sentiments that don't contain cold, hard advice. The animal died (and lots of others do) because of a mistaken idea about its needs/wants. We will see more and more of this as reptile keeping becomes more popular, and they are readily available to those with little or no knowledge.

Maybe I'm a bit blunt (a characteristic of mine), but if I hammer the point home hard enough, maybe someone will take notice. There have been quite a few posts in this thread which are not at all constructive, in fact, could be just the opposite.

Jeannine sought advice here, and little useful advice was given. I point out that there is a fundamental problem with the way Jeannine interprets the behaviour of her animal, in the hope she learns from the mistakes she made. The animal probably didn't die from 'some unknown cause' - it died because its needs weren't understood.

By the way, mixing cats and lizards is NOT a good idea...

Jamie.


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## LadyJ (Aug 20, 2010)

I agree that wrongs were made and that putting any animal in the same position as you would a child is sick (which I DO NOT think the owner was doing)... but this must be a difficult time for the owner, and that should be respected.

So what, people enjoy the company of their animals... it's not a matter of _''pink fluffy bunny hugging'' _(whatever THAT means) it's a matter of them enjoying their company.

My animals are treated like animals but they're still a massive part of my family, my life, and myself.

Not meaning to hi-jack... RIP Ivory and hang in there Jeannine.


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## sandswimmer (Aug 20, 2010)

LadyJ said:


> So what, people enjoy the company of their animals... it's not a matter of _''pink fluffy bunny hugging'' _(whatever THAT means) it's a matter of them enjoying their company.



It is fine for people to enjoy their animals, but not when it comprises the animal's health and well-being. If you want a companion animal, get a dog, not a reptile.


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## LadyJ (Aug 20, 2010)

sandswimmer said:


> It is fine for people to enjoy their animals, but not when it comprises the animal's health and well-being. If you want a companion animal, get a dog, not a reptile.


 
Look, I'd never comprimise the health of one of my animals. I HAVE a companion animal, my bird and the reptiles are totally different, I understand that.


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## Jeannine (Aug 20, 2010)

*thanks everyone even those who appeared 'harsh' 

i posted here about her to try to understand what happened, however with a lot of things one ends up with conflicting advice

some don't let their BD's brumate and those animals do really well, others let them do what is natural and they also do really well, sometimes the opposite happens 

i am sorry but ivory knew who we were, the experience with my neighbor showed me that, she was good with us but displayed her defensive mode to the neighbor, no one can convince me she didn't realise a stranger when she heard? one

i did do a lot of reading i also asked questions in here, i also did a lot of work to improve her heating and lighting, we had also bought a 4ft tank for her so she would have more room to move around as she was growing, i was also in the process of getting the UVB fluro lights for the new enclosure as well even though we would put her outside on good days for direct sunlight

please remember even the most informed person in here was once an inexperienced keeper and had to learn as they progressed

so who do us 'newbies' believe? or do we take all the advice throw it into a hat, toss them around and whatever we pick out we follow? as i said before in this thread i have read on this very site

A. don't let young one sleep thru their FIRST brumation
B. let your reptiles sleep thru their first winter
C. 'wake' them up for fluid/water
C. don't wake them up for fluid/water
D. don't use heat pads/use heat pads

please can u see why some of us get confused? and i do understand 'everyone' is trying to help and i (and im sure others) appreciate everything everyone does for us *


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## Lollypop (Aug 20, 2010)

You are quite right Jeannine - who do u believe?? Those saying they absolutely know could be totally new to the industry!!!
Get to know the names on here, & what advice is offered, constructive or otherwise, but in regard to whether it's for the health of your animal. That's what I did for months prior to even joining, so I had an idea who to listen to to any degree.
I in all regards agree with pythoninfinite (be it as blunt as u may lol), & I always advise people who buy off me that if they want a cuddly animal, buy a dog!!!!
He has also admitted that they've made mistakes - & that's how it is!! (unfortunately). If you're getting advice from someone who says they're perfect - well, probably just ignore it.
I've said go again - that's what I did when my first died due to my inadequacies as an owner, to prove to myself I could do it ...... but not before I knew I could keep that animal alive for the rest of it's 'natural' life.
Cheers hey!


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## phantomreptiles (Aug 20, 2010)

I agree and disagree - it does not matter what animal you chooose as your "pet", research sould be made for temps, humidity, food, water, excercise, etc... If you decide to take on a pet, no matter if it be feathered, furred, scaled or otherwise. The research done should the the same no matter what pet you aquire, any person deciding on a pet regardless of its species, should undertake the basic understanding and introduction to their chosen species to give it the best and most appropiate housing, feeding, tempertures,etc....


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## Jeannine (Aug 21, 2010)

*i did research and read prior to getting her, i learnt a few things i needed to do to make her happy and comfortable


reptiles like human babies don't come with a manual that says 'this product might develop the following, blah blah blah, and newbies like me can research as much as we can and ask questions BUT how am i suppose to know about mouth rot? unless i encounter it and by then its probably too late

we can be as prepared as much as humanly possible, read as much as possible but until it happens what do we do?

what would happen if i did a post in here and asked breeders/owners to list to me every symptom to every disease a BD could possibly get no matter how little the odds 

i did with my BD what i thought was right from THINGS i read in here, as i said some say let them brumate the first year, others have said don't let them do it and what if both pieces of advice came from respected members who are trustworthy but obviously have different views? not to mention you then have b, c, d, agreeing with A and then x, y, z, agreeing W 

who do we believe? 

i googled something the other night regarding the beetle form of meal worms and again got conflicting information so while we can research and ask as many questions as we can and we will be left to workout for ourselves which advice we will follow, so even if we researching chances are were going to get conflicting advice as well *


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## Chris1 (Aug 21, 2010)

Beautiful Dragons

heres a tonne of info on beardies,...and youre right, theres so much totally opposite info in the net its hard to know what to believe.

i stuffed up with my first 2, i fed them just like i was told to on a US forum, from 10 months old my girl was 655g at 47cms long, over 4 years i dieting i got her weight down to 460g she died a couple of months ago from renal failure, (fatty liver disease in common in fat reptiles which i didnt know while i was feeding the crap out of her, but i was told top reduce her weight slowly to prevent more damage) 
she died 4.5 years after the damage was done and it was totally my fault. i knew she wouldnt live a full life, her sister was never as greedy (or maybe processed the food better, who knows) and was never fat and is still with me.

i still disagree that theyre not a cuddly pet tho, you get out what you put in personality wise,...thats the same with all animals, my lizards are way cuddlier than my dog was.

anyway, the list of possible illnesses might be of interest to you


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 21, 2010)

Jeannine, I can only agree with you about the conflicting info on the net, and it is a great concern to me, if I may say so on this site, that there are heaps of people on here who have zilch experience, but who freely offer dangerous advice. 

To keep reptiles healthy and long-lived: 
You MUST have a good understanding of the environment from which each species comes from, the seasonal changes the species experiences, and (I'm sure you understand this) that the needs of the reptile must override the needs of the keeper.

You MUST have a basic understanding of the physiology of the species you keep, so you know - when to feed or not to feed, management of temperatures through the various seasons, when to reduce handling or eliminate it altogether.

Armed with that info, you should have no trouble with a new reptile pet. I make no secret of the fact that I killed many reptiles in the early days because of ignorance and lack of knowledge, the difference between you & me now is that I can separate the good advice from the bad. Hopefully you will learn to do the same. I may have a bit of an ego, but I'm never going to be able to say I know it all - some things are still challenging for me even after 50-odd years of keeping. That's what keeps it interesting - the more we find out makes us realise how little we know.

A couple of fundamental errors:
Ivory was trying to brumate... at this time they should NOT be fed or disturbed in any way - your temps were probably OK for brumation, but not for digestion and assimilation of food. In captivity, brumation should be managed as an off-on-off thing, with perhaps a few days lowering temps into the cycle, then at the end (probably late August-September), a few days of warming until full activity is achieved. It means you may not see your beastie for 3-4 months, but that's just how it has to be.

If you want to keep the animal active through winter, maintain a full lighting and summer temperature regime, so that all the normal summer physiological parameters remain consistent. When you drop the temps, it induces major physiological and hormonal changes in the animal, with consequent effects on activity levels and feeding behaviours. There can't be an in-between, half on-half off position.

My suggestion to you would be to get a few good BOOKS, and read them again and again. People who go to the trouble of publishing in hard-copy usually know a bit of what they are talking about. Stick to the advice of one or two people who have experience, to do more than that will only confuse you. There is no 'one way' to keep reptiles healthy, some people's techniques are at odds with those of others. If you stick to one or the other, you will be fine, but if you try and combine the two (or more) you can end up in trouble. This is where the understanding you have of the basic needs of your reptiles is very important. The web - for a novice, forget it. There is as much crappy advice on the net as there is good advice, and unless you can filter the good from the bad, you'll come unstuck.

By the way, recognition of you & the difference with your neighbour doesn't constitute 'affection' for you, merely that contact with you is the lesser of two evils.

Jamie.


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## PhilK (Aug 21, 2010)

Jeannine said:


> reptiles like human babies don't come with a manual that says 'this product might develop the following, blah blah blah, and newbies like me can research as much as we can and ask questions BUT how am i suppose to know about mouth rot? unless i encounter it and by then its probably too late


 Joking, right? All baby books DO have lists of illnesses your baby can get.. same as almost all material on keeping animals has lists of certain diseases, and mouth rot is really quite common. 

Regardless, the mouth rot isn't the issue.. even if you knew about it it still would have happened as it stemmed from your suboptimal temperatures and constantly harassing your beardie while brumating.. These things ARE easy to research.

Live and learn.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 21, 2010)

PhilK said:


> Joking, right? All baby books DO have lists of illnesses your baby can get.. same as almost all material on keeping animals has lists of certain diseases, and mouth rot is really quite common.
> 
> Regardless, the mouth rot isn't the issue.. even if you knew about it it still would have happened as it stemmed from your suboptimal temperatures and constantly harassing your beardie while brumating.. These things ARE easy to research.
> 
> Live and learn.



There is a big body of published work, by reputable keepers from all over the world, on the management of Bearded Dragons in captivity. Any one of these would have helped you avoid the death of Ivory. Your funadamental mistake has been relying on the net for advice - if you're a novice looking for (good) advice, steer clear of the internet.

PhilK is correct - mouth rot wasn't the issue, the bleeding from the mouth would have signified major internal damage from the disrupted digestion processes.

Jamie


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## redbellybite (Aug 21, 2010)

The 'pink fluffy bunny posts' meaning is, that people like yourself( ladyJ) have simply posted an 'emotional post 'without giving constructive advice on how and why it died due to her error ..alot dont want to 'offend' in pointing the finger when its obvious, so place these 'bunny hugging' comments up ..and while I do agree it hurts to lose a pet and yes to a degree they have personalities that we can as the owner recognise, they still have their primal needs and arent often met due to people HUMANIZING them ...this is what I meant

Jamie on the other hand said what needed to be said and explained it in easy terms this was far more of a better post to read in Jannine's case then some of the other posts ...


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## LadyJ (Aug 21, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> The 'pink fluffy bunny posts' meaning is, that people like yourself( ladyJ) have simply posted an 'emotional post 'without giving constructive advice on how and why it died due to her error ..alot dont want to 'offend' in pointing the finger when its obvious, so place these 'bunny hugging' comments up ..and while I do agree it hurts to lose a pet and yes to a degree they have personalities that we can as the owner recognise, they still have their primal needs and arent often met due to people HUMANIZING them ...this is what I meant
> 
> Jamie on the other hand said what needed to be said and explained it in easy terms this was far more of a better post to read in Jannine's case then some of the other posts ...



Well excuse me for being polite, considerate and trying to offer support. I could tell her that her beardie had mouth-rot, she was a horrible owner, she pestered it to death, etc. etc.... but I DON'T know that. I don't know the person, I'm not qualified enough to put her down or tell her what's what, so I gave my condolences.

I guess you're a snake person... you know, without 'humanizing' my shingleback, Brissie, I can say with all the sureness I have that she actually sees a reason to seek my company - I don't know what it is, but she does. She glass-dances for hours until I open her enclosure door, then she walks onto my hand, and sits on me until she's asleep. She's not hungry, not thirsty, the temps are right, she's got no reason at all to come and sit on me (and when I place her away from me, walk up to me). Maybe there are things we don't know about reptiles and will never know... people scoffed at the thought of the earth being round, but there we have it.


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## PhilK (Aug 21, 2010)

I generally totally don't agree with the "herps love their owners" things. I'm a scientifically minded person and firmly believe that reptiles do NOT bond with their owners.. but when I was in Africa I saw a bloke put his boa in a pool. It swam across the pool towards a line of about 15 people.. when he walked around and stood at the end of the line it did a 90 degree turn to swim towards him and got out at his feet... very weird, and I can't explain it.


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## LadyJ (Aug 21, 2010)

PhilK said:


> I generally totally don't agree with the "herps love their owners" things. I'm a scientifically minded person and firmly believe that reptiles do NOT bond with their owners.. but when I was in Africa I saw a bloke put his boa in a pool. It swam across the pool towards a line of about 15 people.. when he walked around and stood at the end of the line it did a 90 degree turn to swim towards him and got out at his feet... very weird, and I can't explain it.



Exactly what I mean... there are some things that can't be explained, who knows? But I agree with you on that.


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## Jeannine (Aug 21, 2010)

*like it or not i too believe given lots of interaction reptiles DO know who you are

the experience i had with ivory, me and the next door neighbor proved to me she 'knew' a stranger hence why she did a defensive display to the stranger that she had NEVER done to me or hubby *

*oh and for the record the advice i followed in regards to not letting her brumate and to keep her fed and hydrated ect come from members in THIS site 

how are people like me suppose to know who to trust when you have several, even long term members giving different advice out and telling us 'so and so' is wrong and their advice is the only one to follow and putting each other down* *then we are left to sort it out ourselves, any wonder we get confused?

ty LadyJ
*


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## xxMelissaxx (Aug 21, 2010)

Jeannine said:


> how are people like me suppose to know who to trust when you have several, even long term members giving different advice out and telling us 'so and so' is wrong and their advice is the only one to follow and putting each other down *then we are left to sort it out ourselves, any wonder we get confused?
> 
> ty LadyJ
> *



You do not use a forum as your primary source of information. You can ask questions, and evaluate each different opinion that is given in response. You then use this information as a starting point in your research, and seek out credible texts etc. to confirm any information before putting it into practice.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 22, 2010)

If you read my post (#42) Jeannine, I took the time & trouble to give you some very sound advice. It's up to you whether or not you follow it.

Nobody with BD credibility would have suggested to you to keep the animal fed & 'hydrated', in a sort of 'half brumation state'. That is likely to lead to death with any reptile. You have either taken the advice of a moron, or combined the 'best' of both worlds, with disastrous results. If you knew a bit about reptile physiology, this wouldn't have happened.

Central Bearded Dragons live in hot, dry places with very cold winters, especially nights. They are adapted to live in a harsh environment, where they may go for months without water at the hottest time of the year without any problems at all.

You pumped the animal with food and water when its metabolism was almost static (its behaviour should have told you that something had changed). The results were entirely predictable.

It has been said several times already in this thread - the internet is NOT a good source of information if you can't filter out the good stuff from the idiotic stuff. With all due respects to APS, there are some young players here who think they know it all, are free with advice, but have nothing but an info vacuum between their ears.

Jamie


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## redbellybite (Aug 23, 2010)

Jeannine said:


> *A little while ago i went to feed and give her some water and found her dead *
> 
> *she had been sleeping but every few days i would get her out and give her some water via an eyedropper and a feed of either insects or vegies, she would eagerly take the water and food she was also opening her bowels every few days and only went 2 nights ago *
> 
> ...


This in my view is a person asking ADVISE on what she may have done to end up with a dead reptile ....if she simply wanted to say my lizard died and left it at that ..then a simple yes RIP sorry for your loss post was adequate ...NOT in this case ,Jeannine layed her cards on the table and asked for opinions of what might have caused this ...to which she was given some great constructive advise by Jamie and a few others ...if you didnt know what caused it and couldnt offer advise that would help her out ..then maybe you and alot of others that do this ,should do a chitchat thread to say your sorry and RIPs ...not in a thread that was asking for advise ...I am not a heartless 'snake person' ...I do like lizards and all reptiles .


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## Chris1 (Aug 24, 2010)

im still convinced it was blood poisoning from the cut in the mouth
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...help-dieing-beardie-130393/page/6#post1650847
read the end of this link and it might convince you too,...

the link to the beautiful dragons site i posted earlier suggests Jeannine didnt kill her dragon by offering food during brumation, and if it was still passing BM's the food was obviously not just rotting in its tummy.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 24, 2010)

I don't think Jeannine said there was a cut in the mouth. She said there was free blood in the mouth, which certainly is no indication of a cut in the mouth. The blood could have come from anywhere in the digestive tract, especially as she said she saw it 'yawning' at some stage earlier. It may well have ruptured something by trying to regurgitate unwanted food. Unwanted food and water, when the animal is in shutdown mode, can cause all sorts of organic disruption to liver, kidneys etc...


Chris1 said:


> im still convinced it was blood poisoning from the cut in the mouth. Offering food/water during brumation CAN be fatally disruptive to a reptile, whether you want to believe it or not.
> 
> Jamie
> 
> ...


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## LadyJ (Aug 24, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> This in my view is a person asking ADVISE on what she may have done to end up with a dead reptile ....if she simply wanted to say my lizard died and left it at that ..then a simple yes RIP sorry for your loss post was adequate ...NOT in this case ,Jeannine layed her cards on the table and asked for opinions of what might have caused this ...to which she was given some great constructive advise by Jamie and a few others ...if you didnt know what caused it and couldnt offer advise that would help her out ..then maybe you and alot of others that do this ,should do a chitchat thread to say your sorry and RIPs ...not in a thread that was asking for advise ...I am not a heartless 'snake person' ...I do like lizards and all reptiles .



If it were in Herp Help I wouldn't have interfered with my 'mindless drabble'. Again, "sorry" to anyone I've offended through _actually giving a damn_.

She could have asked for no condolences and merely a thread asking for help - but that was not what was stated.


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## Chris1 (Aug 24, 2010)

ahh, well i read that as blood coming from the gums and assumed it was a cut then,....in which case septicemea would make sense. but if i misread that, then perhaps not.

either way i highly doubt a dragon that was bleeding internally would eat regardless of what was offered,..

one thing i am sure we can agree on is that at teh first sight of blood the dragon should have gone to the vet.

the brumation section of the beautiful dragons link i posted clearly states its ok to offer food and water during brumation tho, and the people from that site are totally dedicated to their beardies and theres no way they would distribute info that was detrimental to their health in any way shape or form.


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## morgs202 (Aug 24, 2010)

Chris1 said:


> i still disagree that theyre not a cuddly pet tho, you get out what you put in personality wise,...thats the same with all animals, my lizards are way cuddlier than my dog was.


 
Gotta agree with you on that one Chris. Jeanine, so sorry for your loss


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 24, 2010)

Jamie, you make a lot of really good points - points that are vital to owning reptiles as pets. I agree with you on just about everything. That said, a bit of sensitivity would have gone a long way in your post to making Jeanine WANT to do some research and better her husbandry practices, rather than feeling guilty about anything she may have done wrong. You stated that you lost animals when you were new to it all - surely you remember the feeling of knowing it was your fault? A bit of softness for someone who has just lost a pet, at the same time as constructive advice, couldn't hurt, could it?

Jeanine, here's a good thread from LadyJ from a few weeks ago. Sorry for your loss. Despite the way in which it was delivered, Jamie has offered you some really sound advice. I would be taking it on board, doing a bit more research, deciding on a plan of action, asking an experienced herp or vet's opinion, and getting yourself a new beardie. It won't replace Ivory, but it will help ease the pain. Good luck.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/animals-5363/coping-pet-loss-141324/


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## Jeannine (Aug 24, 2010)

*i have read everything everyone has written 

maybe i did the wrong thing offering her food and water but SHE would open her mouth wide and eat the food hungarily, im sure if she wasnt hungry she would just have refused her food 

was a little blood in her mouth a few times upon feeding which i had first assumed MAY have come from a cut/scratch from her food 

i didnt FILL her mouth with water but drop little droplets at the front of her mouth which she would lick eagerly 

thank you chris i have that link up and will read it from page one

LadyJ thank you, please i didnt want anyone insulting anyone else, some thing inside the box and others think outside, while i really do appreciate all the advise i also really appreciate the compassion of some of the members

knowing 'i' did something wrong that caused my girl to suffer and die is my pain and cross to bear and believe me nothing anyone has said can beat me up anymore then i have already done to myself*


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 24, 2010)

I take your comments on board Kristy, and I guess some of the irritation I showed was due to the mindless and inane 'sorry for your loss, it wasn't your fault' responses which followed her post. I have also been dealing for decades with people who treat reptiles as 'normal' pets, often with fatal results. Chris1, for example, continues to promote the myth that feeding during brumation is fine... this is a dangerous practice for any reptile keeper to undertake, especially if the animal is subjected to less than optimal temperatures during that period.

I freely admit that mistakes I've made have cost the lives of my charges in years gone by, but ever since I was 5 years old (in 1953) I have lived and breathed reptiles, there was no internet, the books we had came from England (grass snakes and slow-worms!), so we learned by trial and error. These days, if you undertake to manage the life of a creature such as a reptile, the amount of information that is available to the aspiring keeper is astronomical, there really are no excuses for not understanding just what reptiles are, and what they need for long and healthy lives.

It is enormously frustrating for me when new keepers want to put their reptile into the same category as cats & dogs - cuddly pets with parallel needs. Sure, Bearded Dragons are remarkably tolerant of human contact, but anthropomorphising the relationship (she loved her family...) removes all natural dignity from the animal, and to me, indicates more neediness in the keeper than the reptile. Perhaps mine was a blunt observation, but I was drowned out by well-meaning people who offered no practical assistance regarding the cause of the animal's death.

I wish Jeannine no ill will, and I'm not unsympathetic about the loss, but I much prefer to be honest about the way I feel when circumstances arise like this. A certain amount of dispassionate advice might be rough to accept initially, but hopefully, in the longer term (time heals everything eventually), she may take another look at reptile keeping, from a different perspective, with modified expectations, and with a better outcome for the reptile/s in her care.

Jamie


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## Chris1 (Aug 25, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Chris1, for example, continues to promote the myth that feeding during brumation is fine...
> 
> 
> Jamie



lol, not sure where u read that, if anything i was 'promoting' not letting them brumate AT ALL if shes not comfortbale with it,....

i posted that link to show her that while it may not be the BEST idea, it does seem to be common practice to offer food and water during brumation by lots of big respected breeders in the US, and that theres no CONCLUSIVE proof that she caused its death by not letting it brumate properly.


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