# Brown snake (?) Royal National Park



## schopier (Nov 14, 2017)

This was taken near Marley Beach in the Royal National Park near Sydney by a friend of mine this week. The head is distinctly brown when compared to the body. I told him it wasn't smart to get that close with a cell phone (I wasn't present), but we might as well find out what it was since everything turned out fine. Cheers.


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## Tim.Arm (Nov 14, 2017)

It's an Eastern brown snake (_Pseudonaja textilis_.)


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## Bl69aze (Nov 14, 2017)

Tim.Arm said:


> It's an Eastern brown snake (_Pseudonaja textilis_.)


Not disagreeing with you, but don’t eastern browns have a “collar”? Where in this pic it seems to brown to black?


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## Yellowtail (Nov 14, 2017)

Not really any scale to go by and can't see the head clearly but most likely an Eastern Brown, some of them are greyish in that area and can be confused with the smaller Marsh Snake.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 16, 2017)

Tim.Arm has it correct IMO. There is not a lot of comparative perspective to go on, but the snake does appear to be at least a metre or more in length. The thinner neck region and head and the apparent lack of a distinct brow ridge (under magnification) distinguish it from a RBB. (Paired subcaudals rule out tigers, as does pattern.)

@Bl69aze. What makes you think Eastern Browns are supposed to have a “collar”?

@schopier, the advice you gave your mate was very wise. Browns that are warmed up are extremely quick and do not like to be closely pursued, often turning back on themselves (in the blink of an eye) to have a decent crack at their pursuer, before continuing to make their escape. Your mate can consider himself fortunate this time around but should definitely not push his luck again.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 16, 2017)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Tim.Arm has it correct IMO. There is not a lot of comparative perspective to go on, but the snake does appear to be at least a metre or more in length. The thinner neck region and head and the apparent lack of a distinct brow ridge (under magnification) distinguish it from a RBB. (Paired subcaudals rule out tigers, as does pattern.)
> 
> @Bl69aze. What makes you think Eastern Browns are supposed to have a “collar”?
> 
> @schopier, the advice you gave your mate was very wise. Browns that are warmed up are extremely quick and do not like to be closely pursued, often turning back on themselves (in the blink of an eye) to have a decent crack at their pursuer, before continuing to make their escape. Your mate can consider himself fortunate this time around but should definitely not push his luck again.



I’ve seen a “chart” if you will at work explaining quick identification methods apart from the obvious like some eastern browns are a nice brown and some aren’t but there’s different identification methods such as the collar,

When they are young they have stripes which fade over their age but some keep the black head brown collar, black stripe after collar then brown all the way down to the tail, and some grow up to black like this and still keep the brown collar, where in this there’s nothing.

If I can, I’ll try get a picture.


Edit: I obviously wouldn’t go “THATS NOT A BROWN!! Because I’ve seen the almighty chart!!” But it’s weird that it was questioned by you like that.


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 16, 2017)

Hey Bl69aze, eastern browns come in all sorts of colours and patterns,I've even seen them in khaki ( Ingleburn Army camp) so don't be too quick in dismissing them.


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## Scutellatus (Nov 16, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> But it’s weird that it was questioned by you like that.


It isn't really that weird that he questioned you like that. Considering we are talking about a venomous snake with the capacity to take a life any misinformation could be deadly.

This isn't just to you but anyone that chooses to reply to a snake identification, unless you have some serious experience in the field with the reptile you are identifying it is probably best to refrain from commenting.



dragonlover1 said:


> Hey Bl69aze, eastern browns come in all sorts of colours and patterns,I've even seen them in khaki ( Ingleburn Army camp) so don't be too quick in dismissing them.


Are you being sarcastic with the 'khaki (Ingleburn Army camp)' comment?
If not I wonder if they have evolved to blend in with features of the camp.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 16, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> It isn't really that weird that he questioned you like that. Considering we are talking about a venomous snake with the capacity to take a life any misinformation could be deadly.
> 
> This isn't just to you but anyone that chooses to reply to a snake identification, unless you have some serious experience in the field with the reptile you are identifying it is probably best to refrain from commenting.


I questioned asking how they come to saying it’s definitely a brown and then mentioned where I got my info from, I never gave any answer besides questions. 

I believe I’m allowed to ask questions that can better my education on these things.


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## GBWhite (Nov 17, 2017)

Tim.Arm got it first go. Definitely 100% Common Brown and a good sized one at that. The shape of the body and head rule out the other 2 possibilities of large elapids for that area, being RBB & Tiger.

Big9aze. They are born with black heads and a brown collar (nape) but they are not always born banded and they don't always retain the nape. Up around Emerald Qld they have brown heads and jet black upper body.

They do come in a large variety of colours and also patterns, from a greenish/grey, light and dark brown, reddish/orange to completely black like this one in the above photo. 

Here's a couple of pics of some banded ones that come from around the Inverell district in the NSW New England.


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## Tim.Arm (Nov 17, 2017)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning me as to why i gave such a certain identification, from a photo which isn't of the best quality. But there was enough information from that photo and the location given to make a positive identification.

I personal have spent a considerably amount of time studying within that given area and have experienced numerous _Pseudonaja textilis _during it_. _From these observation and others, the task of positively identifying this specimen was a simple one IMO. Not only did i use my knowledge, i did exactly what Bluetongue1 & GBWhite said when it came to comparing certain physical features to other large Elapid species that are often found within that area.

B169aze if you would like more off an explanation on how i came to my conclusion then i would be more then happy to, never stop asking questions.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 17, 2017)

@Bl69aze, apologies if you though my question rhetoric and therefore criticising. It wasn’t. I was wanting to understand the origins of this misconception so I could better help you correct it.

The dark head patch and nape band of neonates fade as they grow, but at different rates in different individuals. What you may have seen was a photo of an individual in which this took place slowly and so it was already beginning to show adult colouration. Also, as has been described and shown, this is a highly variable species. That makes it difficult to cover all the possibilities in a Wall Chart ID Guide. The one thing they definitely all do have in common is the head & neck pattern when young. As a result this may have been given undue emphasis… maybe?

Irrespective, sorry for the confusion and please, do keep asking questions.


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## Tim.Arm (Nov 17, 2017)

Bluetongue1 said:


> @Bl69aze, apologies if you though my question rhetoric and therefore criticising. It wasn’t. I was wanting to understand the origins of this misconception so I could better help you correct it.
> 
> The dark head patch and nape band of neonates fade as they grow, but at different rates in different individuals. What you may have seen was a photo of an individual in which this took place slowly and so it was already beginning to show adult colouration. Also, as has been described and shown, this is a highly variable species. That makes it difficult to cover all the possibilities in a Wall Chart ID Guide. The one thing they definitely all do have in common is the head & neck pattern when young. As a result this may have been given undue emphasis… maybe?
> 
> Irrespective, sorry for the confusion and please, do keep asking questions.



100% agree with everything you just said Bluetongue1.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 17, 2017)

Tim.Arm said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning me as to why i gave such a certain identification, from a photo which isn't of the best quality. But there was enough information from that photo and the location given to make a positive identification.
> 
> I personal have spent a considerably amount of time studying within that given area and have experienced numerous _Pseudonaja textilis _during it_. _From these observation and others, the task of positively identifying this specimen was a simple one IMO. Not only did i use my knowledge, i did exactly what Bluetongue1 & GBWhite said when it came to comparing certain physical features to other large Elapid species that are often found within that area.
> 
> B169aze if you would like more off an explanation on how i came to my conclusion then i would be more then happy to, never stop asking questions.





Bluetongue1 said:


> @Bl69aze, apologies if you though my question rhetoric and therefore criticising. It wasn’t. I was wanting to understand the origins of this misconception so I could better help you correct it.
> 
> The dark head patch and nape band of neonates fade as they grow, but at different rates in different individuals. What you may have seen was a photo of an individual in which this took place slowly and so it was already beginning to show adult colouration. Also, as has been described and shown, this is a highly variable species. That makes it difficult to cover all the possibilities in a Wall Chart ID Guide. The one thing they definitely all do have in common is the head & neck pattern when young. As a result this may have been given undue emphasis… maybe?
> 
> Irrespective, sorry for the confusion and please, do keep asking questions.


Thanks you two!

I’m still learning Haha!

It may have said something else but there was a lot of writing and the only think I remember specifically was it saying a collar, so I’ll give it another read and let u know.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 17, 2017)

@Bl69aze, I am in my 60's and I can assure I am still learning. Lol.


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 17, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Are you being sarcastic with the 'khaki (Ingleburn Army camp)' comment?
> If not I wonder if they have evolved to blend in with features of the camp.



Absolutely no sarcasm intended,I actually saw 2 eastern browns while I was looking for the origins of some turtles that wandered through the property I lived on that was next to the old Ingelburn army camp,and they were of a khaki colour. My son and I were incorrectly dressed for encounters with Pseudonaja textilis and after making like statues till they lost interest we headed for home.
I have often made jokes about army snakes since then but there was nothing funny about it at the time.


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## danyjv (Nov 17, 2017)

Awww every ones friends again[emoji847]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GBWhite (Nov 18, 2017)

I like Browns, they just exude confidence. The name Pseudonaja (false Cobra) certainly suits them. So seeing that we're talking about them I thought I might as well whack these up.


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## Tim.Arm (Nov 18, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> I like Browns, they just exude confidence. The name Pseudonaja (false Cobra) certainly suits them. So seeing that we're talking about them I thought I might as well whack these up.



There is absolutely nothing better then Browns, and since you are spoiling us all with your cracking photo's, i thought i might post some photo's of an interesting encounter i had a few years ago. So here we go, this specimen was eating a Cunningham's Skink (_Egernia cunningham_i) and comparing it to the photo of the snake that was in question, it looks quite similar in appearance.


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## Tamir (Nov 18, 2017)

Hi schopier,
could you specify the location more precisely? I go running regularly in Royal National Park, I didn't expect brown snakes there.


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## sp.michael (Nov 18, 2017)

The Royal National Park is well within the range of eastern browns and there'd be plenty of them there.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 29, 2017)

So i guess I totally missed it but the poster I looked at clearly said “eastern brown snake (juvenile)” then talked about the banding and stuff


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## Yellowtail (Nov 29, 2017)

sp.michael said:


> The Royal National Park is well within the range of eastern browns and there'd be plenty of them there.


I do a lot of off track bushwalking in the area and regularly see EB's, the reason I queried the scale of size in the photo is small EB's are often mistaken for the relatively harmless Marsh Snake.


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## GBWhite (Nov 29, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> I do a lot of off track bushwalking in the area and regularly see EB's, the reason I queried the scale of size in the photo is small EB's are often mistaken for the relatively harmless Marsh Snake.
> View attachment 322138




Umm, That's a Yellow faced Whip Snake and they are often mistaken for Browns. Marsh (Swamp) Snakes are often mistaken for Copperheads.




Cheers.


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## Yellowtail (Nov 29, 2017)

I am no expert on the smaller elapids GB but it seemed too thick in the body and with larger scales for a Whip Snake.


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## GBWhite (Nov 29, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> I am no expert on the smaller elapids GB but it seemed too thick in the body and with larger scales for a Whip Snake.



It's a Whip. Caught hundreds of both Whips And Marsh Snakes over the years. Can you see the two white markings on either side of the eye? They confirm it's a Whip Snake. The photo I put up is a Marsh Snake.


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