# Help needed! Chipsi substrate & humidity in a click clack container for a juvenile spotted python + soldering holes



## newtothescene (Feb 24, 2021)

*I'm setting up my click clack container for my very first snake - either a stimson's or a spotted python (most likely spotted).
I just wanted to know:*

1. If the Chipsi Beechwood XXL substrate is appropriate. The pieces of wood are quite large and I'm worried that would be damaging. The substrate's texture is rough and I need to know if, for a juvenile spotted python, this will be an issue. Also, potential to become a swallowing hazard? Yes, No?

2. Chipsi substrate is also dry; thus another concern is the level of humidity I will be able to uphold in a small container with a dry substrate. I know spotted pythons don't require humidity-excess, but I still want a good level of humidity because I don't want shedding problems, nor do I want my snake to live in discomfort.

3. I'll be soldering holes around the sides for ventilation and would like to know what diameter of the drill would be the best option to avoid any escape attempts, but still, obviously provide substantial oxygen.

4. The container I got is a bit larger than the general guidelines ,however I'll have 2 hides and a water dish taking up some of the space. Should I worry myself with downsizing or will the small juvenile spotted be just fine and feel safe in a 30x20cm?

5. Is there a better substrate that will be safe and good for a small juvenile spotted python? I was initially thinking Repti Bark but have already purchased the Chipsi substrate and need to know if I can safely use it instead.


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2021)

1) Probably fine but I wouldn't use it for a hatchling. Paper towel is good (Viva brand is the best currently available).

2) Humidity mostly comes down to the size and position of the water bowl vs. the amount of ventilation.

3) You say solder and also drill. These are different tools which work in different ways. I wouldn't use either, although I know making holes is the most popular way to do it. Go for something small. If in doubt, go smaller. A drill will make it easier than a soldering iron to keep the holes consistent, and is also far less likely to give you cancer (those fumes are very toxic). 3mm holes should be safe, although you need a lot of them to get enough ventilation. 

Ventilation is not about having enough oxygen. Any amount at all is enough for that. It's about regulating humidity and having enough air flow to prevent mould etc.

4) It'll probably be fine.

5) Paper towel. The cost is negligible, it's easy, it's quick, etc etc.


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## newtothescene (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks, you've been a great help!
The reason I was leaning more towards the soldering option was because drilling would leave sharp edges and be a potential hazard for the snake?
As for humidity, I have a small water dish that takes up about 1/6th of the container and will create ventilation-holes around the edges but not in excess - is that appropriate? 
Also, how would you advise I avoid mould - if that's a common occurrence? 
Thanks again for the help


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2021)

Not just mould. Bacteria, etc etc. Keep it clean, ventilated and not too wet. Generally speaking, if you have good ventilation and other than the water bowl there's nothing damp/wet, you should be fine.

I wouldn't be worried about drilling leaving sharp edges. I still have some of my prototype hatchling tubs from about 20 years ago in use (prior to that I used various things including the type of tub you're planning to make, which is what most people still use) where I went to great lengths to avoid sharp edges of polymer ('plastic') but the other few hundred we use have the ventilation cut out with knives or rotary tools and I'm yet to have an issue. 

A water bowl taking up a sixth of the floor space in conjunction with the low amount of ventilation usually achieved using holes sounds likely to create excessive humidity/dampness. I have actually reduced the amount of ventilation I use over the last 20 years (prior to that I was stuck using holes which gave too little, then I used large windows which over the decades have become smaller, other than the ones we use which I don't make... haha, I guess we don't agree on absolutely everything), but with a large water bowl you'll want more ventilation, and you'll probably find it's easier to just use a smaller bowl. You can experiment without a snake in the tub, just set it up and see if you're getting condensation in the tub. Generally speaking, if you're using hole ventilation and a water bowl, you don't want to be seeing condensation.


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## newtothescene (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks a lot! 
I've make some holes according to your advice and just had two more questions before I complete the set up.

1. Should I put anything (e.g. a tile) between the heat mat and plastic container? Or can/should the heat mat be sitting directly under the container?

2. Should the probe of the thermostat be touching the hottest area or just hovering above the hottest area?


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2021)

newtothescene said:


> Thanks a lot!
> I've make some holes according to your advice and just had two more questions before I complete the set up.
> 
> 1. Should I put anything (e.g. a tile) between the heat mat and plastic container? Or can/should the heat mat be sitting directly under the container?
> ...


There's a hundred and one ways to do it right and wrong. I rarely use heat mats these days (I use cords) but personally, if I do use mats, I stick the probe down on the heat mat itself with a huge blog of Blu Tac, which keeps the heat mat at a reasonably stable temperature and gives a slight day night fluctuation in the tub. The tub sits directly on the heat source.

You may find something different works better for you. Whatever you do, feel free to play around and experiment, make sure it makes sense to you and test it to make sure it works. A lot of my own methods aren't best for most people, and some of them I don't even tell people because if you get them wrong it's outright dangerous. As long as you don't do anything outright silly, and you experiment and test it to make sure it works, you should be fine with heat mats and thermostats. One thing I would recommend sticking with though it attaching the thermostat probe to a surface rather than suspending it in air; heat mats and cords are contact heat sources, not radient or ambient, so contact with a relevant surface will give much better and more relevant thermal feedback data to the thermostat.


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## newtothescene (Feb 26, 2021)

That makes everything a lot clearer, thank you. 
I'll try placing the container right on top of the heat mat. I don't expect the 32*°*C to have the capacity to burn or melt the plastic. & as long as you're sure that placing the probe directly on the heat source won't mess with the readings, i'll do that.


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## Sdaji (Feb 26, 2021)

32 degrees or so is necessary for the snake. If that was too hot for the polymer tubs we wouldn't be able to use them.

Glad you found the discussion useful


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## Herpetology (Feb 26, 2021)

Personally if i were measuring the temp of the source rather than inside the tub, I’d bump it up 1 or 2degrees


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## newtothescene (Feb 26, 2021)

But if I secure the probe to the base of the click clack and have the heat source directly underneath the container, those are reliable readings too? 
So if I set the thermostat to 32 degrees in that scenario, I will be regulating the temperature of the base of the container within the click clack? I want accurate readings for that particular spot and feel this is the best way to go about it.


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## Sdaji (Feb 26, 2021)

Herptology said:


> Personally if i were measuring the temp of the source rather than inside the tub, I’d bump it up 1 or 2degrees



I would always, always measure the tub (or relevant snake location). Surely that goes without saying?


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## Herpetology (Feb 26, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> I would always, always measure the tub (or relevant snake location). Surely that goes without saying?


with the thermostat probe


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## newtothescene (Feb 26, 2021)

And do I secure the probe below or above the substrate (which in this case and for the foreseeable future will be paper towel)?

Again, all of these answers have been incredibly helpful. I found a lot of information regarding maintenance; python health and enclosure, however found very limited information about the heating/thermostat set up so I apologise for all the questions but your help, nonetheless, is very much appreciated.


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## Herpetology (Feb 26, 2021)

i put together a little sketch







For thermostats i recommend finding a dimming or pulse stat as this will keep a constant temperature


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## Sdaji (Feb 26, 2021)

Definitely not the way I'd do it, but there are many different ways of doing it, good and bad.


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## Herpetology (Feb 27, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Definitely not the way I'd do it, but there are many different ways of doing it, good and bad.


you're always more than welcome to share your super secret setups rather than passively implying other ways are wrong/"definitely" not the way you would do it  it was not meant to be super detailed, but rather to give a good general visual of how a tub setup can look and be successful


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## Sdaji (Feb 27, 2021)

Herptology said:


> you're always more than welcome to share your super secret setups rather than passively implying other ways are wrong/"definitely" not the way you would do it  it was not meant to be super detailed, but rather to give a good general visual of how a tub setup can look and be successful



I already described the way I do it and would recommend it be done, but pointed out that there were many good and bad ways to do it. I don't think it's a particularly good idea to put the thermostat probe under the tub, for various reasons (long story, but a couple of the points very briefly, you're going to have to move the tub from time to time, and that will throw your settings off every time meaning the system will have to come back to equilibrium and it'll do it with more swing and take longer, and if you ever want to adapt your system to using multiple tubs on the same thermostat, it's going to potentially be dangerous to all tubs other than the one on top of the probe).

I'd already given a pretty detailed description of the way I set up thermostats for floor heating tubs even if I hadn't made a diagram, and spent about as much time on this thread as I was inclined to, and didn't really feel inclined to sit here shooting down someone else's method after I'd already given my own, but there you go.
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Actually, if I'm going to be giving feedback on your diagram, it's very misleading and a common cause of snake suffering to be using thermostats as thermometers. You'd stated your temperature on the thermostat probe, which is terrible advice or at best very misleading. So many snakes are kept at the wrong temperature because of this mistake. The thermostat setting should never be used to determine the temperature, that's what the thermometer is for. The thermostat may need to be set to 40 or 22 or whatever it may be, in order to get the correct temperature at the relevant part of the enclosure. Given that neither your heat source nor your thermostat probe is where the snake is in your setup (or in the way I do things), the temperature at that place isn't what you should be concerned about. Measure it where the snake is going to be and adjust your thermostat up or down to get it right, regardless of what setting is required on your thermostat (and it usually won't be the same as the temperature you want). Generally in a setup like in your design you'll want the thermostat to give a higher temperature at the probe site than you want in the tub, because there will be some heat loss between the two locations. Having said that, keep in mind that when you remove the tub, the system is going to overheat, which is why I set mine up in a way which means moving tubs around won't alter the heat system. When you remove the tub in your system and replace it, you're putting it onto an overheated element, it's inherently unstable. Using this system with multiple tubs could potentially be dangerous.


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## Herpetology (Feb 27, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> You'd stated your temperature on the thermostat probe, which is terrible advice or at best very misleading. So many snakes are kept at the wrong temperature because of this mistake. The thermostat setting should never be used to determine the temperature, that's what the thermometer is for. The thermostat may need to be set to 40 or 22 or whatever it may be, in order to get the correct temperature at the relevant part of the enclosure.


If you're setting your thermostat to 40c (for a species that requires 32~), you're doing something wrong... The only time you would get temperature differences like this is in a racking setup where the tubs higher than the measured tubs will get higher, lower ones will get lower temps... that's just basic knowledge.. say they have lots of substrate, what happens when that snake starts moving the substrate and getting closer than the thermometer reading spot to the heat source thats now set @ 40c... not good, especially for a baby.





Sdaji said:


> When you remove the tub in your system and replace it, you're putting it onto an overheated element, it's inherently unstable. Using this system with multiple tubs could potentially be dangerous.


removing it from what system????? picking it up off the heat mat/cord??? over heated what element????? its set to 32/33

OK but he only has 1 tub and 1 heat source (preferably a mat for a single tub) at this time...


i use heat cord in my rack setup, set to 32c in the middle row, never had to touch it once and all my tubs sit between 31 and 32.5 24/7 even in summer, is this also wrong??


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## Sdaji (Feb 27, 2021)

I disagree, but don't want to argue. You've obviously been doing this longer than I have and know better, all good.


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## newtothescene (Mar 1, 2021)

This is my current set up:
It seems to be working the best but I believe there could be some improvements made. My concerns are written on the attachment. Please share any suggestions, would be greatly appreciated


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## Herpetology (Mar 1, 2021)

i wouldn’t put the probe inside the tub if there’s a snake inside, just because they can and will move it, if you were going to hold it down dont use anything that’s sticky like tape or glue


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## Sdaji (Mar 1, 2021)

Agreed about not putting the probe inside the tub. Partly because the snake may move it etc etc, but also because you want to be able to easily move the tub around for various reasons. It's also going to need cleaning... there are plenty of reasons not to, especially for contact heat sources (ambient heat is sometimes an exception but you want to be very careful, and this is not such a case).

As I keep saying, the thermostat is not a thermometer. Ignore the reading on the thermostat. It can say 40, it can say 20, it's common for them not to be calibrated properly and often even if they are, the temperature setting won't reflect the temperature at the site of interest. If the *thermometer* says it's too cold, increase the setting on the thermostat, regardless of what that number is. If it's too hot, reduce the setting on the thermostat, regardless of what that number is. Set the temperature using a thermometer to measure temperature and using the thermostat setting as an arbitrary scale, or a vague reference. I've seen so many snakes kept at the wrong temperature because of thermostats being used as thermometers. Do not use the thermostat scale as a guage for setting the temperature. Use the temperature, measured by thermometers, to set your thermostat.


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## newtothescene (Mar 1, 2021)

Ok, I will rest assured that the thermostat is, by nature of being just a thermostat, inaccurate. However, I feel more secure when the heat mat is regulated in accordance to the surface temperature of the tub (if I were to secure the probe down that is - would that make a difference?).
That said, if you both believe the inside-container-probe-setup will cause serious problems, in terms of cleaning and obstruction, I will try to put the probe directly to the heat source (if true to one of your previous comments, that won't disrupt the readings because heat mat because it's not a radiant or ambient heat source).

I have also reconstructed the base, using some insulation and creating a pouch inside it for my heat mat (for heat-efficiency) hoping this will bring more consistency in temp readings and more steady/reliable heat-retainment.
I've noted my quarrel with the thermostat/thermometer but haven't outlined my actual problem - it is that I distrust the thermometer because it takes so long to adjust to the surface i'm measuring. I'm not sure if that's normal, but I feel like I'm infinitely standing there waiting for the number to stop going down or up, and sometimes, the value would fluctuate to very undesirable numbers. 

Also wondering if my goal should be achieving a total maximum of 34 degrees in any one spot on the hot side, or, (e.g.) if the general hot side can be 33 degrees while underneath the hot-hide it is 35 degrees?


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## Herpetology (Mar 2, 2021)

Don’t overthink it mate

KISS keep it stupid simple

Can’t imagine putting it inside the pouch being a good idea or efficient as it’s another layer to heat through
The temp could be fluctuating due to the type of thermostat if it’s turning off at 33c it’s gonna turn off till about 28-29 then turn back on, this is why dimming stats are recommended as it lowers the wattage of the heating source and keeps a stable rather than just cutting it off and having a recovery period


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## Sdaji (Mar 2, 2021)

Yeah, definitely keep it simple and don't overthink it. Sounds like my comments about contact vs. radiant vs. ambient heat sources wasn't understood, so forget that for now and just focus on this situation. 

Don't stress about 33 or 35 degrees. 

If your thermometer is crap, get a new thermometer or two. It never hurts to have extra thermometers, and you definitely want to make sure you're measuring the temperature correctly.

Yes, ideally you'd be able to regulate the temperature based on exactly where the snake is, but in the real world this isn't possible without causing problems, and while drastic temperature spikes are to be avoided, minor fluctuations are probably better than a dead flat temperature 24/7 anyway. The way I do it somewhat regulates the temperature of the element itself (I have the probe directly in contact with the heat source) rather than the thing being heated, which results in a mild fluctuation at the target site (where the snakes are sitting), so it's slightly (maybe a degree or two) cooler at night and warmer during the day, even without a timer or changed thermometer setting. That may be difficult to comprehend with all this being new and you being unfamiliar with setting these things up, in which case ignore it for now.


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## newtothescene (Mar 2, 2021)

Quick query. What if the snake gets under that paper towel and thus directly onto the plastic which sits on the heat source?


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## Sdaji (Mar 2, 2021)

newtothescene said:


> Quick query. What if the snake gets under that paper towel and thus directly onto the plastic which sits on the heat source?


If it feels happy it will stay there. If not it will move.


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## newtothescene (Mar 2, 2021)

So, not dangerous?


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## Sdaji (Mar 3, 2021)

newtothescene said:


> So, not dangerous?


Why would a plastic tub be dangerous? I've had thousands of snakes contact their plastic tubs. Almost all of them do from time to time. We literally eat out of plastic tubs. A lot of the ones we use for snakes are literally designed to hold human food.


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## Bluetongue1 (Mar 3, 2021)

Let’s go back go to basics. The preferred body temp (PBT) of most Morelia pythons is around 29oC. So why don’t we set the whole cage temperature to this? Snakes are behaviourally geared to coping with conditions in the wild, where temperatures rise and fall every 24 hours. So they heat themselves up to above their PBT where and when they can, then set off hunting, or stay put to digest food, cooling down in the process. This is an inbuilt behavioural pattern; to enable them to make best use of the varying temperatures that occur every 24 hours. Given that snakes naturally want to heat themselves somewhat above their PBT, we need to provide a heat source that allows them to do this, be it from a radiant or contact heat . At the same time we need to provide a lower temperature range so that that they can lose some of that excess heat as they would in the wild. So what is it that we should be trying to achieve? You want a warm surface of approximately 32oC for hatchling pythons (and up to 35oC for adults). You also want a cooler area for the snake to be able to lose heat as it would in nature. So whether you are using a radiant heat source or a contact heat source, you want the heated surface that the snake will be on when warming itself to be at 32oC.

It stands to reason that if you want direct control of a heat source using a thermostat, then the probe needs to be in direct contact with the heat source, as was recommended by Sdaji (using Bluetack to do so). A thermometer reading on the surface that the reptile is in contact with is required to determine if the desired basking temperature of 32oC is actually being achieved. If not, then one needs to tweak the thermostat such that it is being achieved, irrespective of what the thermostat probe might read. If there is any difficulty in understanding what I have said here, I am happy to draw a diagram to make it clearer if you prefer that.

One thing I will add that it is important that you observe the behaviour of your snake. If it spends an inordinate amount of time at one end of the enclosure, then you need to adjust the thermal gradient accordingly so that it moving between both ends on a regular basis. What can also be done is to provide a hide in the middle of the thermal gradient so that the snake has the opportunity to spend comfortable time at its PBT.


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## newtothescene (Mar 3, 2021)

I've tried various arrangements. Whenever the probe was in direct contact with the heat mat (beneath the tub) I had to set the thermostat to >41 degrees, and even then, both sides were 2-4 degrees below the requirement - not energy efficient in my opinion 
I have only had success so far by securing the probe beneath the paper-towel substrate within the actual tub and will do that. But I will also secure the probe with a cardboard loop/hot glue to the base so that it can't be manoeuvred. Hopefully that is ok.
As for the snake getting underneath the paper-towel substrate, I only suspected it would be unsafe as there would be no separation between the heat source and tub but the plastic.


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## Herpetology (Mar 3, 2021)

Let us know how it goes when the probe gets wet inside the tub whether from spilled water or snake pisses all over it..
It’s really really not recommended mate, just keep mucking around with it even if it means getting a hotter heat source like a 20w heat cord or 14w mat


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## Sdaji (Mar 3, 2021)

I've learned that there's a point at which arguing isn't worth bothering with. Many people need to learn the hard way. Every time a newby tells me off for not knowing what I'm talking about then ends up with a dead or sick snake I should put a dollar in a big green can and take a nice holiday each summer.

I've said my piece here, have fun


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## Bluetongue1 (Mar 5, 2021)

What is the important temperature here to get correct? Answer: The temperature of the contact surface where the snake basks. To determine this accurately you need a thermometer. Do NOT rely on a thermostat probe for accurate temperature measurements. They are not easily calibrated to read temperatures accurately and can often be 2 or 3 or more degrees out. However, they are consistent in their readings and every temperature reading will be the same number of degrees above or below the actual temperature.

What you need to understand is that the electrical power required by the heating element (heat mat), to achieve the desired temperature on the basking surface (inside base of plastic tub), is NOT going to change because the the thermostat probe is put in a different position. Putting it on the heating element, versus on the basking surface, it is only to be expected that the temperature registered on the probe should read several degrees different. Heat is lost from the heat mat to its surrounds as well when it is being transferred through the plastic base and spreading out in the process. Repositioning the probe will not make it any more or less power efficient - you will still need to use the sam amount of electrical energy on the heat mat. Where you decide to put the probe is up to up to you. Irrespective of where, what you will still need to tweak the power supplied to the heat mat using the thermostat and probe, such that the basking surface temperature, as measured by a thermometer, is consistently on or near to the recommended 32oC.

Just to put your mind at ease about the plastic potentially melting. You’ll find that the melting point of your plastic tub is clearly in excess of 100oC. Otherwise you could not rinse it with boiling water or use it in a microwave oven without it deforming.


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## tweeds (Mar 31, 2021)

newtothescene said:


> I've tried various arrangements. Whenever the probe was in direct contact with the heat mat (beneath the tub) I had to set the thermostat to >41 degrees, and even then, both sides were 2-4 degrees below the requirement - not energy efficient in my opinion
> I have only had success so far by securing the probe beneath the paper-towel substrate within the actual tub and will do that. But I will also secure the probe with a cardboard loop/hot glue to the base so that it can't be manoeuvred. Hopefully that is ok.
> As for the snake getting underneath the paper-towel substrate, I only suspected it would be unsafe as there would be no separation between the heat source and tub but the plastic.


I don’t understand your comment about energy efficiency and thermostat probe placement.
Fix the probe to the heat source outside the tub and set the thermostat to a temperature that gives you the desired hot side temperature. There is absolutely no reason for the probe to be inside the tub when your using a “belly heating” set up.
As to the Chipsi, I’ve found the smaller bags to be softer. This is only an observation as I’ve used probably about six of the large bags over time, but it does seem coarser than the 2kg bags.


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