# Not the nicest email I have received!



## Amazing Amazon (Jan 5, 2013)

*Dear Sir /Madam ,

We would like to offer the prices FOB with Cites II-C for live tortoises and turtles as following:*

*Cuora galbinifrons usd310/kg*






*Coura mouhotii (Pyxidea mouhotii) usd300/kg*





*Cuora amboinensis usd100/kg*





*Manouria impressa usd100/kg*






*Cyclemys tcheponensis usd200/kg*





*Heosemys grandis usd70/kg* 





*Indotestudo elongata usd80/kg*





* Thanks & Best regards,
Mr.Hien-Mr.Vu
------------------------------------------------------------------
LE VAN HIEN
Group 2, My Khanh B Hamlet,
Tel/Fax: XXXXXXXXXX
Email: [email protected] / XXXXX@yahoo.com
Website: XXXXXXXX 
Cell phone: XXXXXXXXX (Mr.Vu)*
---------------------------------------


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## RedFox (Jan 5, 2013)

I've neve heard of people selling live animals per kg. Is that a common thing in Vietnam or just the words of a misinformed scammer?


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## Elapidae1 (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm not sure I understand the problem. People on this forum deal in live animals all the time.

Cites II animals can be legally traded depending on that countries laws and regulations.


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## sharky (Jan 5, 2013)

:shock: That is terrible!!!!!! Selling animals by the Kg and he even has the animals turned on their back!!!!!!!!!! Oh, poor darlings  This makes me sick. Did you take the order? (I don't mean to be rude. Don't answer if you don't want to )


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## Zanks (Jan 5, 2013)

RedFox said:


> I've neve heard of people selling live animals per kg. Is that a common thing in Vietnam or just the words of a misinformed scammer?


Never been to Melb fish markets then ???
(Not saying there is turtles !!)


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## disintegratus (Jan 5, 2013)

RedFox said:


> I've neve heard of people selling live animals per kg. Is that a common thing in Vietnam or just the words of a misinformed scammer?



I bought a live eel from Springvale markets by the kg once. Turns out they make terrible pets because they constantly escape their tank, then spawn and die and make your bedroom smell like awful eel sperm for weeks, and result in fish tanks and supplies that need to be thrown out because no matter how hard you scrub, the smell of eel sperm is there to stay.

Live animals are generally only sold by the kg if they are intended for consumption.


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## Elapidae1 (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe they're farmed for food. In which case I wouldn't see a problem.


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## Chanzey (Jan 5, 2013)

sharkyy1o5 said:


> :shock: That is terrible!!!!!! Selling animals by the Kg and he even has the animals turned on their back!!!!!!!!!! Oh, poor darlings  This makes me sick. Did you take the order? (I don't mean to be rude. Don't answer if you don't want to )



I think that is a little bit of an over reaction, I'm sure they are not in pain?

Don't take my word for it, but in alot of countries aren't turtles commonly bred for their shells?


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## fourexes (Jan 5, 2013)

damn eel sperm, don't you just hate it when that happens... lol

selling a turtle be the kilo actually does make sense, it's pretty hard to pick their age, which most animals are priced by.


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## Variety (Jan 5, 2013)

Personally cannot see the problem here, weight has alot to do with specimens. Especially when trading


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## RedFox (Jan 5, 2013)

Zanks said:


> Never been to Melb fish markets then ???
> (Not saying there is turtles !!)



No I haven't. Do they sell live fish? Must admit I haven't really bought any fish down here. When I lived in Cairns we got reef fish off a friend. We used to have fish once a week. But down here, I'm lucky to have fish once a month. My aunt doesn't like any seafood except grilled flake from this one fish and chip shop, and most the time I can't be bothered cooking two meals.  It does make some sense to sell by the kg I just hadn't seen it before in live animals.


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## sharky (Jan 5, 2013)

Chanzey said:


> I think that is a little bit of an over reaction



hahaha, yeah I over react...a lot  I'm sure they aren't in pain... But I know turtles don't like to be turned upside down even though he is just doing it to show the stomach. Why can't he pick him or her up and get someone to take a picture from the bottom?


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## Shotta (Jan 5, 2013)

it sounds like they are selling them to eat? if it weren't illegal i would buy them all providing they are alive and have a crazy turtle farm...killing turtles for fun is all good IN MARIO games but in real life if its not for food its just sad


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## noved (Jan 5, 2013)

i think there more surprised that someone is openly trying to sell them illegal animals...


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## Shotta (Jan 5, 2013)

noved said:


> i think there more surprised that someone is openly trying to sell them illegal animals...



WOops my bad


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## Elapidae1 (Jan 5, 2013)

noved said:


> i think there more surprised that someone is openly trying to sell them illegal animals...



Possibly they are running a legitimate business but are unaware of Australian laws.


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Jan 5, 2013)

noved said:


> i think there more surprised that someone is openly trying to sell them illegal animals...



Perhaps it is not illegal in their country and they therefore don't know its illegal to offer them overseas?

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry Elapidae you must've posted as I was writing my post


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## noved (Jan 5, 2013)

furiousgeorge said:


> Perhaps it is not illegal in their country and they therefore don't know its illegal to offer them overseas?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Sorry Elapidae you must've posted as I was writing my post



absolutely possible that it is a genuine mistake on the sellers part and that make it all the more disturbing i will assume that the original email went out to more than just one reptile supplier and some one with less scruples could take advantage of there lack of knowledge


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## Amazing Amazon (Jan 5, 2013)

From their website. Somehow I don't think the pet trade is their main purpose!
"Exporting live animals for personal use, research and pet purposes, as well as their fresh meat products for restaurants is of our abilities. Our annual export income of air-dried raw python skins and snake skins are over USD 5 million. Our main direct export markets are Europe, Japan, and Singapore. We have more then 20 year-old experience of Reptiles and have exported directly since 2004."


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## DanN (Jan 5, 2013)

Mr Hien mainly produces turtles/tortoises for consumption (for meat, and for carapaces for Traditional Chinese Medicine). These are sold mainly to Vietnamese markets. He probably also sells the odd animal into the international pet trade.

This trade is legal (provided they are captive-bred, not wild-caught...). Mr Hien probably doesn't know about Australia's strict import laws regarding the commercial sale of wildlife - in fact he is probably spamming all reptile related breeders/dealers on the internet in the hope of drumming up some business. If he gets takers from most other countries his sales will be perfectly legal.


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## Jk888 (Jan 5, 2013)

how exactly did you get this email?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 5, 2013)

Jk888 said:


> how exactly did you get this email?



One would presume it was via the internet on AA's computer... Gotta love the APS exotic animal detectives... leave no stone unturned...

Watch out Mr Hien... we're on your case lol! And stop turning those damned tortoises over - can't you photograph them from under a glass coffee table ?

Jamie


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## thomasssss (Jan 5, 2013)

not a stab at you AA but maybe removing the exotics in your advertisements section would help solve the problem , i know there listed as not available in australia but why are they even there when you dont deal with them 



disintegratus said:


> , and result in fish tanks and supplies that need to be thrown out because no matter how hard you scrub, the smell of eel sperm is there to stay.
> .


my dad used to catch eels to send to asia for food big $$ in it at times but yes they bloody stink the other week i pulled out a big tub that had been packed away with the nets there(the eels) are kept in at times and the smell was only worse after about 8 years being packed away


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## Ramsayi (Jan 5, 2013)

Reptiles here years ago used to be sold by the foot.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 5, 2013)

I sell my fish by the cm (plecos), its how every pleco breeder I know works out the price for sub-adults.


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## Fuscus (Jan 5, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Reptiles here years ago used to be sold by the foot.


My snakes have no feet! But they are not free


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## Darlyn (Jan 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> One would presume it was via the internet on AA's computer... Gotta love the APS exotic animal detectives... leave no stone unturned...
> 
> Watch out Mr Hien... we're on your case lol! And stop turning those damned tortoises over - can't you photograph them from under a glass coffee table ?
> 
> Jamie



This might be a job for ninja turtles.


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## longqi (Jan 5, 2013)

Amazing Amazon said:


> From their website. Somehow I don't think the pet trade is their main purpose!
> " Our annual export income of air-dried raw python skins and snake skins are over USD 5 million. Our main direct export markets are Europe, Japan, and Singapore. We have more then 20 year-old experience of Reptiles and have exported directly since 2004."



Now taking into consideration the actual cost of a 3 metre retic skin at around $10 thats a lot of dead snakes

Also considering that snake skins are not the mainstay of his business and you can begin to understand
how big the trade in reptiles has become


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 5, 2013)

longqi said:


> Now taking into consideration the actual cost of a 3 metre retic skin at around $10 thats a lot of dead snakes
> 
> Also considering that snake skins are not the mainstay of his business and you can begin to understand
> how big the trade in reptiles has become



How could they farm Retics to a size of 3m just to make $10 of their skin, is their meat worth much?


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## longqi (Jan 5, 2013)

They use everything including bones etc

But your sentence proves exactly why farming snakes is not financially viable
It is far far cheaper to use wild caught than it is to breed and grow snakes
Snakes eat meat and any form of meat in Asia costs money
So to grow a farmed retic to 3 metres will cost you 2 years plus $$$$ for food

Turtles are a different matter because they eat plants


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## Xeaal (Jan 5, 2013)

Did we not all see - and sign - a petition on this site, a few days ago decrying this style of business as deplorable? I know I did.


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## DanN (Jan 5, 2013)

Longqi, I think you'll find that the skin price is closer to $100.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 5, 2013)

Honestly, as much as I don't like the idea of selling reptiles for meat, the west really does have a nerve when it comes to these things. I am sure Hindus, for example, find us eating cows deplorable. Do they start petitions imposing their opinions on us. Are we going to stop eating cows anytime soon so as not to offend another countries citizens sensibilities. It is high time we stopped sticking our noses into other peoples cultures and affairs, however wrong they may seem, and fix whats wrong in our own back yards.


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## imported_Varanus (Jan 5, 2013)

Live animal exports comes to mind...we know what happens but turn a blind eye for profit's sake.


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Jan 5, 2013)

Its easy for people in the first world to point fingers at the third world for trying to make money. If you hate drugs, and drug suppliers, go to Afghanistan. You'll never again feel the same about villagers growing weed or opium. Normal people just trying to feed themselves and their children.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 5, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Honestly, as much as I don't like the idea of selling reptiles for meat, the west really does have a nerve when it comes to these things. I am sure Hindus, for example, find us eating cows deplorable. Do they start petitions imposing their opinions on us. Are we going to stop eating cows anytime soon so as not to offend another countries citizens sensibilities. It is high time we stopped sticking our noses into other peoples cultures and affairs, however wrong they may seem, and fix whats wrong in our own back yards.



I see no problem with them being farmed, its the raping pillaging of wild populations that I have a huge issue with.
Reptiles have brains that are considered less advanced than mammals so if I am comfortable with farming and eating Bambi then I would be a hypocrite to judge people for doing the same with reptiles


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## Darlyn (Jan 5, 2013)

People in this country still eat turtles. Big ones. 
I'm sure that upsets some people but that's life and death.
Sometimes living in cities blinds people to what actually happens in the real world.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 5, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> I see no problem with them being farmed, its the raping pillaging of wild populations that I have a huge issue with.
> Reptiles have brains that are considered less advanced than mammals so if I am comfortable with farming and eating Bambi then I would be a hypocrite to judge people for doing the same with reptiles



Agreed, but there is plenty of raping and pillaging of our own wildlife to do something about before attacking people from other countries for their wrongs.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 5, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Agreed, but there is plenty of raping and pillaging of our own wildlife to do something about before attacking people from other countries for their wrongs.



I agree 100% we all need to focus on our own backyard, if we don't who will?


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## disintegratus (Jan 5, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> I agree 100% we all need to focus on our own backyard, if we don't who will?



Presumably after we take away the livelihoods of enough people in third world countries with our righteous indignation, they'll get bored with sitting around all day starving to death and take on our social/ecological/economical problems the way we did theirs...


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## longqi (Jan 5, 2013)

Dan $100 is the price of a treated skin

Even on their quoted $5million export that is still 50,000 dead snakes

Anyone can buy a 3 metre normal wild caught retic in most village markets for $10
Very few snake catchers get more than $10 anywhere in Indonesia unless its destined for the pet trade or a very big snake
Thats why wild caught are used
There are no farms in southern kalimantan
Yet you know how many snake products are made there
Behind Malang in Java are several 'farms'
Same story, we know their catchers and buyers

Only farms Ive ever seen that appeared to be viable are in Southern China


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## aspidito (Jan 5, 2013)

Amazing Amazon said:


> From their website. Somehow I don't think the pet trade is their main purpose!
> "Exporting live animals for personal use, research and pet purposes, as well as their fresh meat products for restaurants is of our abilities. Our annual export income of air-dried raw python skins and snake skins are over USD 5 million. Our main direct export markets are Europe, Japan, and Singapore. We have more then 20 year-old experience of Reptiles and have exported directly since 2004."




Hi Paul, what used to be only local trade in wildlife for food has branched out over the years into big business, some legal & some not but while there is a market it will continue & as IT & communication technology has become widely & cheaply available a much bigger market has been reached, & dont forget we have a growing multicultrual society & as so there would be many out there that would cook these up like we do chickens.
I would love to have a look at the Web site, I struggle with the $5 million annual income from snake products though.... it could be a scam to get some money for the first order & you never hear from them, got to admit though I have never seen this one before.
Cheers, Paul


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 6, 2013)

The problem for me is that it's the wealthy countries that provide the market for such things as snake & lizard skins - the vast bulk of these items are exported from Asia and Africa into Europe for the fashion trade... all to decorate the gormless bodies and feet of the fashionistas. We create the market where none should exist, poor people become reliant on the income, they feed the market, the market grows... and soon enough it becomes impossible to stop. (The same with live reptiles for the pet trade too...) It won't be stopped until there are too few reptiles to make it viable for villagers to catch them, or the entire area of southern Asia is levelled for oil palms... It's a toss up which will come first. Grim eh?

Jamie


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## Jk888 (Jan 6, 2013)

no need to get smart just asking a question


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## Darlyn (Jan 6, 2013)

Jk888 said:


> no need to get smart just asking a question




In his defence I thought it was an odd question. People get unsolicited emails all the time and Amazing
Amazon does sell turtles.


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## wokka (Jan 6, 2013)

I sell live cattle by the kilo. Australia exports live cattle sheep etc by the kilo. Australia exports wild pigs, roos, possum by the kilo. There are probably more local fights to be had, before trying to reform the rest of Asia.


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## Darlyn (Jan 6, 2013)

wokka said:


> I sell live cattle by the kilo. Australia exports live catle sheep etc by the kilo. Australia exports wild pigs, roos, possum by the kilo. There are probably more local fights to be had, before trying to reform the rest of Asia.



Possums? Who buys them and for what?


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## wokka (Jan 6, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Possums? Who buys them and for what?


I exported some to Denmark 15 years ago along with Emu, Ostrich and Crocodile, Eel, for human consumption. There was a possum abbatior in Tasmainia. I recall i had an enquiry for live snakes to China which i think was legal about 20 years ago.Personally i think wild shooting is far more humane, when done properly, than killing in abbatiors and more sustainable, with less environmental impact than farming.


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## longqi (Jan 6, 2013)

wokka said:


> I sell live cattle by the kilo. Australia exports live catle sheep etc by the kilo. Australia exports wild pigs, roos, possum by the kilo. There are probably more local fights to be had, before trying to reform the rest of Asia.



So long as the animals being sold are captive bred or sustainably harvested
I see no problem at all in any of that marketing

There is a huge difference between sustainable use of a resource and what happens in the reptile product trade


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## Darlyn (Jan 6, 2013)

wokka said:


> I exported some to Denmark 15 years ago along with Emu, Ostrich and Crocaodile, Eel, for human consumption. There was an abbatior in Tasmainia. I recall i had an enquiry for live snakes to China which i think was legal about 20 years ago.



Kiwi's should get onto that I hear they have plenty possum.
Never tasted it myself I wonder what it tastes like.
You exported ostriches?


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## longqi (Jan 6, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Kiwi's should get onto that I hear they have plenty possum.
> Never tasted it myself I wonder what it tastes like.
> You exported ostriches?



Tastes ok in a slow cooked stew
But really tough roasted
Strong gamey taste but cold beer fixes most things


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## wokka (Jan 6, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Kiwi's should get onto that I hear they have plenty possum.
> Never tasted it myself I wonder what it tastes like.
> You exported ostriches?


The processed meat of Ostrich, roo, Emu, Crocodile, Possum,Deer. Kiwi's also have Tuberculosis which limits many exports.


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## Darlyn (Jan 6, 2013)

wokka said:


> The processed meat of Ostrich, roo, Emu, Crocodile, Possum.Kiwi also have Tuberculosis which limits many exports.



So is/was ostrich farmed here?


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## wokka (Jan 6, 2013)

longqi said:


> So long as the animals being sold are captive bred or sustainably harvested
> I see no problem at all in any of that marketing
> 
> There is a huge difference between sustainable use of a resource and what happens in the reptile product trade


Longi, i was adding to my prevoius post whilst you were posting. I imagine the wild harvest of reptiles in Asia is generally not sustainable but who are we to deprive them of their resource?Wild harvest of roos , crocs, possums in Australia could be done sustainably without the environmental impact of farming domestic animals.

- - - Updated - - -



Darlyn said:


> So is/was ostrich farmed here?


Yes, we'll soon be in trouble for going off topic!


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## Stuart (Jan 6, 2013)

No trouble as its interesting content, but would anyone mind if this was moved to chit chat section?


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## Darlyn (Jan 6, 2013)

Sorry, thought the topic was international animal sales. Will curtail my nosiness


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## longqi (Jan 6, 2013)

wokka said:


> Longi, i was adding to my prevoius post whilst you were posting. I imagine the wild harvest of reptiles in Asia is generally not sustainable but who are we to deprive them of their resource?Wild harvest of roos , crocs, possums in Australia could be done sustainably without the environmental impact of farming domestic animals.
> 
> !



Western nations created the demand for snakeskin products
Only Western nations can slow down that demand

It wasnt that long ago that the top European fashion houses used seal cub fur
None of them even attempt to use to use it now
But those same fashion houses will continue to use reptile skin because nobody cares about reptiles

Profit from reptile skin is huge and growing bigger
But the catchers etc get the same money if the snake is just eaten at the local market
So their income will not be badly affected
The exporters will definitely lose money at the start
But China is insatiable and will quickly take up any slack anyway


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## Davesgonefishin (Jan 7, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Honestly, as much as I don't like the idea of selling reptiles for meat, the west really does have a nerve when it comes to these things. I am sure Hindus, for example, find us eating cows deplorable. Do they start petitions imposing their opinions on us. Are we going to stop eating cows anytime soon so as not to offend another countries citizens sensibilities. It is high time we stopped sticking our noses into other peoples cultures and affairs, however wrong they may seem, and fix whats wrong in our own back yards.



Within reaon Kao - Different cultures but sometimes they may need to review their beliefs - tiger penis, rhino horn or whale - are these ok because its their belief? Yes these are illegal wild caught but none the less....


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 7, 2013)

Davesgonefishin said:


> Within reaon Kao - Different cultures but sometimes they may need to review their beliefs - tiger penis, rhino horn or whale - are these ok because its their belief? Yes these are illegal wild caught but none the less....


That's true, but us sticking our noses in does nothing but cause resentment and makes matters worse. I used to live with a Chinese guy who told me tiger balm in China contained tiger bone, when I reacted negatively he became very indignant and basically told me China was the root of civilisation and we are just ignorant babies that like attacking other peoples thousand years old traditions.


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## JrFear (Jan 7, 2013)

Davesgonefishin said:


> Within reaon Kao - Different cultures but sometimes they may need to review their beliefs - tiger penis, rhino horn or whale - are these ok because its their belief? Yes these are illegal wild caught but none the less....



Mmmmm tiger penis!


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## Burnerism (Jan 7, 2013)

Tradition is fine but sometimes these people also need to step into the 21st century and open their eyes.


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## caliherp (Jan 7, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Tradition is fine but sometimes these people also need to step into the 21st century and open their eyes.


I agree with you, but at the same time who the hell are we to tell them they should change?


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## Davesgonefishin (Jan 7, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> we are just ignorant babies that like attacking other peoples thousand years old traditions.



Tradition can *sometimes* be an excuse for either ignorance or especially arrogance. I can trace ancestry back to Vikings. Should that mean since it was a "tradition" it should be acceptable for me to go rape & pillage throughout northern europe? Should it mean that people can wipe out entire species because of "tradition"? No the world is/has changed.
I am not having a go at you here - just stating my opinion!


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 7, 2013)

Davesgonefishin said:


> Tradition can *sometimes* be an excuse for either ignorance or especially arrogance. I can trace ancestry back to Vikings. Should that mean since it was a "tradition" it should be acceptable for me to go rape & pillage throughout northern europe? Should it mean that people can wipe out entire species because of "tradition"? No the world is/has changed.
> I am not having a go at you here - just stating my opinion!


I agree with you, but not with our need to interfere with other people when we have plenty of pillaging of our own environment/flora/fauna going on. It is the holier than thou attitude I can't stand.


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## disintegratus (Jan 7, 2013)

Davesgonefishin said:


> Tradition can *sometimes* be an excuse for either ignorance or especially arrogance. I can trace ancestry back to Vikings. *Should that mean since it was a "tradition" it should be acceptable for me to go rape & pillage throughout northern europe?* Should it mean that people can wipe out entire species because of "tradition"? No the world is/has changed.
> I am not having a go at you here - just stating my opinion!



Umm, yes. Vikings are awesome, and you should very much have permission to do viking things.


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## imported_Varanus (Jan 7, 2013)

disintegratus said:


> Umm, yes. Vikings are awesome, and you should very much have permission to do viking things.



As long as you remember, it's pillage, rape then burn...not the other way round! You Vikings are crazy!!


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## Jk888 (Jan 7, 2013)

it was a simple question , what he does in his private time is up to him


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 7, 2013)

I am surprised that people are not aware of the plight of non-marine chelonians. Most would be aware of the issues resulting from over harvesting of marine turtles. Once upon a time every corner grocery store carried cans of turtle soup and ladies combs and other fashion accessories were made from polished turtle shell. Maybe you are aware that some of the small land tortoises were endangered through over collection for the pet trade and some of the giant land tortoises were decimated for meat by early sailors. Well things have changed.

The past 15 to 20 years has seen a massive decline in primarily freshwater chelonians throughout Asia as a result a number of Asian countries opening up the borders and allowing trade in these animals. Essentially utilised for food and medicinal products, this trade has produced the current situation where 17 of the top 25 endangered chelonians herald from Asia. 

I had the privilege of chatting to Gerald Kuchling about this last year. He put into rather stark perspective for me… 60% of chelonian taxa are vulnerable or endangered. The percentage of species at risk is greater than for frogs. Twenty years ago they were looking pretty good as a group.

These counties are signatories to CITES. In so doing they have given an undertaking to look after threatened species. This is not about us meddling with their culture. It is about them not being effective in monitoring, and where appropriate, curtailing the trade in wildlife from one country to another. Before such trade was allowed there was not such a problem. It is basically run by organised crime, who are greedy and motivated solely by the fact that they stand to make significant profits, with no regard whatsoever for the long term effect on biodiversity.


Ostrich question… Australia has a wild population of ostriches in SA (I think). The birds have minimal impact on the environment. They are also particularly healthy. African populations in the wild have suffered badly. So every year or two, a number of live birds are caught and sold overseas. The lease holder is effectively farming these birds as one would free range cattle.

Blue


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## DanN (Jan 7, 2013)

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. 

Complex issues. Very hard to explain here. Perhaps we need to remember that it’s very easy to pass judgment on the dealings of other peoples while typing into a MacBook Pro from the local coffee shop.

Here is a recent report on python skin trade: The Trade in Southeast Asian Python Skin

The python skin trade probably is sustainable, Longqi – I have no idea why you would claim otherwise? The trade in wild turtles/tortoises (which started the thread) is a different matter… 

Jaime, if we are going to protect species and habitats from the impending doom of oil palm, then we need to think about utilizing them to provide alternative income opportunities for local people – so maybe European demand for skins is a good thing…? But, there is evidence that python densities have increased in Asia due to oil palm expansion…

Longqi, if you can get python skins for $10 then give me a call and we’ll go into business together!

- - - Updated - - -

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. 

Complex issues. Very hard to explain here. Perhaps we need to remember that it’s very easy to pass judgment on the dealings of other peoples while typing into a MacBook Pro from the local coffee shop.

Here is a recent report on python skin trade: http://www.intracen.org/The-Trade-in-South-East-Asian-Python-Skin/

The python skin trade probably is sustainable, Longqi – I have no idea why you would claim otherwise? The trade in wild turtles/tortoises (which started the thread) is a different matter… 

Jaime, if we are going to protect species and habitats from the impending doom of oil palm, then we need to think about utilizing them to provide alternative income opportunities for local people – so maybe European demand for skins is a good thing…? But, there is evidence that python densities have increased in Asia due to oil palm expansion…

Longqi, if you can get python skins for $10 then give me a call and we’ll go into business together!


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 7, 2013)

*DanN*,
I did not all of the report but did read enough to find it ambivalent. They express concern about actual numbers of skins declared and methods of circumventing the CITES monitoring. They also express concerns about sustainability of harvesting methods of several species and in particular island morphs. So while they feel confident that in the long term, the overall harvesting is probably sustainable there are real concern regarding insular populations, such as those on islands and those populations in close proximity to regions of intense collection. Given that we understand the importance of maintaining maximum biodiversity for the long term viability of life on earth, any reduction or elimination of genetically distinct populations, be they of minor difference or otherwise, is detrimental to biodiversity and therefore highly undesirable to ecological sustainability. 

To put it succinctly, while the skin trade may sustainable in the long term as it now, if it results in a serious reduction or extinction in any local populations, then this is unacceptable in terms of maintaining biodiversity on the planet.

Blue


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## wokka (Jan 7, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Ostrich question… Australia has a wild population of ostriches in SA (I think). The birds have minimal impact on the environment. They are also particularly healthy. African populations in the wild have suffered badly. So every year or two, a number of live birds are caught and sold overseas. The lease holder is effectively farming these birds as one would free range cattle.[/COLOR]


.
Ostriches in Australia are remnants of the tax driven investment schemes operated about 20 years ago when they were farmed for their skin (driven by the fashion industry) and worth $10-30,000 each. A bit like snakes, they are capable of breeding very quickly and so soon were over populated. Once the economics was put to the test it was found to be a farce driven by tax concessions. The ostrich meat was a by-product of the Ostrich leather industry. I dont know why Ostriches in Africa are in trouble, but they are relatively easy to breed and could be captively bred in Africa or Aussie bred chicks bred exported. Adult Ostriches are too tall to fit traditional transport crates.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 7, 2013)

I have probably confused camels and ostriches in terms of the health of the original populations. My apologies. Ostriches were farmed for their feathers and their meat. Their hides were also utilised. Australian birds are particularly healthy and robust and considered good stock for breeding. I do not know much about live exports of these animals but I do know some occurs. As for problems with standard transport crates, they would simply have to construct something suitable. They transfer giraffes from zoo to zoo around the world so I cannot see that transporting ostriches is beyond them

Blue.


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## longqi (Jan 7, 2013)

Dan
20 years ago the python trade seemed sustainable
Most of my gfs tribe lived as hunters and lived well in Southern Kalimantan
They are all pure bred Dayak
In 2 to 3 days hunting they would have a boat full of skins
Most of them dont bother even going now
All of them have seen a huge decline in both size and numbers of retics and bloods
With bigger better boats the remaining hunters are traveling further now for less return
Exactly the same thing is happening in Sumatra and Sulawesi

Because of the difficulty in hunting some areas, especially North and Western Kalimantan, numbers there
will always stay reasonably high
But thats only because of the terrain, yet its the figures from those areas that are used to 'prove'
that numbers are not in decline


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## DanN (Jan 8, 2013)

Blue/Longqi

Circumvention of CITES regulations and mis-declaration of skins is illegal. This is of concern, and these concerns are expressed in the report. However, this does not necessarily suggest that trade is unsustainable. The report does not express concerns about the harvesting methods. The insular populations are not of real concern, but given the sensitive nature of island population may become so in the future. “Insular populations” also refers to the subspecies described by Auliya et al. (2002), not island populations in general.

I am not disagreeing that harvesting reduces local populations, but this is an issue of “commercial sustainability” not the “preservation of the species”. Trade alone is unlikely to ever result in the extinction of these species.

Changes in the average size of snakes and reductions in numbers capable of being harvested do not necessarily mean that the trade is unsustainable. It might just mean that trade is focused upon immature individuals. There are other biases also. Perhaps a reduction in local population densities coupled with an increase in hunter numbers make it harder for single individuals to collect as many snakes – rather than indicating a crash? This may very well be the case, because absolute numbers collected from these areas haven’t changed, which would be expected if python populations were crashing.

I don’t want to start a never-ending debate; you could both be right? The trade might be unsustainable, but it’s just that there is little indication as yet. 

Don’t get me wrong. Snakes are my favorite critters; I understand the need for ecological sustainability; and the idea of killing a snake for a handbag is a bit weird… All I’m arguing is that if all the available information is evaluated objectively, and holistically, then maybe you would see the trade in a different light? Perhaps not?


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## longqi (Jan 8, 2013)

Dan
While I agree that skin numbers remain fairly constant and in many cases have increased
I think this is more to do with higher demand
Dayaks still hunt
But they are traveling further all the time to return the same number of skins and the average size is dropping
I honestly believe that in 5 years time prices for skins will get crazy
That is when I expect wild population to crash in most areas

If you ever do want skins visit Mengwi markets in Bali very early in the morning
100,000idr [$10] for 2metre plus retics
Even at JL Veteran Bird Market which would be one of the dearer places they only get $15
Central Java average about $1 per kilo


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 8, 2013)

*DanN*,
I can understand your argument. My concerns are that sustainability is based on trade figures which are below the actual figures and that it is based on population estimates in any of the affected areas. So as Longqi pointed out, traditional poulatins have been decimated where there no living to be made collecting from there and so they are going further afield. This is not reflected in the trade figures.

I disagree with you contention about not being able to drive them to extinction. Snakes that are not yet quite ready to breed are still large enough to collect for their skins. If this were not the case, then I would, like you, not be so concerned.

Blue


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## DanN (Jan 8, 2013)

Thanks for the discussion guys - interesting stuff!

Longqi, what you say is interesting. I trust you understand my skepticism.. it just differs from my experience and that of others  If only the Dayaks knew they only needed to travel to Bali for cheap skins... only joking 

Until next time,
Dan


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## longqi (Jan 9, 2013)

Dan
I truly hope you are right
Nothing would please me more than to be a long way off target regarding this


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## trader (Jan 19, 2013)

Amazing Amazon said:


> *Dear Sir /Madam ,
> 
> We would like to offer the prices FOB with Cites II-C for live tortoises and turtles as following:*
> 
> ...



We received the same email a couple weeks back....


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