# Rat pinkies vs mice fuzzys



## MathersD (Feb 14, 2014)

Is there any reason to use a pinkie rat versus fuzzy mice . From a growth and nutrition point of view . I feed my two month old darwin het a day old pinkie rat every five days and and just want to know if the one has better benefits . Price is not an issue . 
Thanks 

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## saximus (Feb 14, 2014)

Not much difference between a pinky and a fuzzy but a pinky rat would be closer to a hopper or small weaner mouse. In that case the mouse is better because it's got much more developed bones, organs and fur


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## andynic07 (Feb 14, 2014)

saximus said:


> Not much difference between a pinky and a fuzzy but a pinky rat would be closer to a hopper or small weaner mouse. In that case the mouse is better because it's got much more developed bones, organs and fur


Interesting that you bring up the fur, what do you think that it actually does for the snake?


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## Illium (Feb 14, 2014)

pipe cleaner?


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## saximus (Feb 14, 2014)

Haha basically that's my understanding. Kind of a similar concept to why fibre is good for us


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## Leasdraco (Feb 14, 2014)

Its probably important for them to have 'roughage' in their diet


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## Senator358 (Feb 14, 2014)

Getting them onto rats as soon as possible is always good. Saves you trying to convert them later. Pinkies aren't that nutritious though so try to get them on to fuzzy rats.


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## andynic07 (Feb 14, 2014)

There is actually no studies to prove either way that snakes need roughage and a vet that I have spoken to can not see a reason that they require it. Fibre in humans prevents constipation and usually in snakes this is caused by either dehydration or compaction which roughage will not help with in my opinion. It obviously does not hurt snakes as they eat it all of the time and you probably wouldn't and couldn't really remove it from their diet but I think it is a statement that is thrown around the herp world without any fact basis but I do agree that better developed bones , organs and muscles are better for a snake. I am not also saying you are wrong @saximus but your claims are unfounded.

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## saximus (Feb 14, 2014)

That's a fair call Andy. I wasn't certain that the fur was advantageous but it sort of made sense to me for the opposite reason. Snakes on pinkies tend to have more of a runny poo so I figured it helped hold everything together. 
I still think larger mice are more beneficial than pinky or fuzzy rats. Converting to rats as soon as possible isn't a necessity. If you're going to have trouble converting you're more than likely going to have trouble later so might as well just supply them with the most beneficial meal for right now


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## andynic07 (Feb 14, 2014)

I thought that runny poo was from the pinky only eating milk and my new RSP seems to have fairly runny poo with day old quail which has roughage (feathers) but still has not developed from eating real food. This is also just a theory so is very unfounded and I would't want people to spread as gospel.


Sorry @SniperCap I kind of knew that comment wasn't suitable but couldn't resist, I think that it was a little bit of entrapment by @The_Geeza


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## Snowman (Feb 14, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> I thought that runny poo was from the pinky only eating poo and my new RSP seems to have fairly runny poo with day old quail which has roughage (feathers) but still has not developed from eating real food. This is also just a theory so is very unfounded and I would't want people to spread as gospel.
> 
> 
> Sorry @SniperCap I kind of knew that comment wasn't suitable but couldn't resist, I think that it was a little bit of entrapment by @The_Geeza



The roughage isn't as coarse as fur with young birds. I'm yet to try something like an adult pigeon to see how the roughage and poop binding goes with something larger and more feathers.

A closer look at the snake poop on rodent diet and the fur is definitely a binding factor. It doesn't seem to be digested much. You see it clearly. Yet feathers don't seem to pass straight through. 

There's plenty of feed charts that do comparisons of nutritional value of whole foods for snakes.


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## andynic07 (Feb 14, 2014)

Snowman said:


> The roughage isn't as coarse as fur with young birds. I'm yet to try something like an adult pigeon to see how the roughage and poop binding goes with something larger and more feathers.
> 
> A closer look at the snake poop on rodent diet and the fur is definitely a binding factor. It doesn't seem to be digested much. You see it clearly. Yet feathers don't seem to pass straight through.
> 
> There's plenty of feed charts that do comparisons of nutritional value of whole foods for snakes.


I must admit , I haven't actually looked at any of these nutritional charts but do they have values for fibre?


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## Snowman (Feb 14, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> I must admit , I haven't actually looked at any of these nutritional charts but do they have values for fibre?



I'll dig one up and see if I can link it.

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http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

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http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

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I'm not sure what fibre would come under... I think Ash is product that can not be digested.


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## andynic07 (Feb 14, 2014)

Doesn't look like a fibre content is listed. My other question would be what roughage would a snake get from a frog and would scales count as roughage from fish? Also I have heard that guinea pigs are not good for pythons because they have too much or too thick hair.


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## Snowman (Feb 14, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> Doesn't look like a fibre content is listed. My other question would be what roughage would a snake get from a frog and would scales count as roughage from fish? Also I have heard that guinea pigs are not good for pythons because they have too much or too thick hair.



I'm not saying they need roughage. Cause I don't know anything about that sort of thing. But it makes cleaning easy for me with carpets if I throw a rodent in when I feed DOC. I've picked up tiger snakes that have squirted stinky poop like water. So I'm guessing not much in frogs etc that would bind their poop.

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I feed my brown tree snake mice and it's poop is still quite runny too..... (comparatively to carpets on mice)

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But then the metabolisms are different too and pythons seem to digest the food for longer (as far as I have observed)

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@andynic07
I've got a train to catch 5:30pm here, But I just read fibre only occurs in plant matter. Not whole animal prey. See if you can google that and obtain more info. I read it in relation to ferrets not doing well with fibre.


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## andynic07 (Feb 14, 2014)

I think fibre was the wrong choice in words for the indigestible matter like fur. Maybe [MENTION=20726]Bluetongue1[/MENTION] can corrector terminology and possible provide some incite into the matter, although he may draw a blank on the question at hand because a vet was unable to answer it.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 17, 2014)

*Andy*, I am beginning to get concerned about your typos. In a previous thread you categorised what had been said as “heresy” instead if “hearsay” and here we have me providing “incite” instead of “insight”, which may well be the case anyway. Lol. 

There is much still to be learned about the functioning of snake’s internal organs. However snakes, like other vertebrates that live on land, have a particular need to conserve moisture. Of particular importance in this regard is the absorption of the high volume of water that constitutes the bulk of the digestive juices secreted into the alimentary canal. In those vertebrates where this has been studied, the stimulus for absorption of moisture from the remnants of food that has been digested is the bulk of this material as it passes through the ileocaecal valve into the colon. This concomitantly initiates absorption of various mineral salts plus the useful products of bacterial putrefaction of the wastes, such as Vitamin K. I see no reason to assume that snakes have an alternative stimulus to perform these important processes.

The term “fibre” is in botanical terms it refers to cellulose and lignin fibres that provide structural strength to the walls of cells (cellulose) and the stems of plants. In zoological terms it refers to three structural fibres made of proteins and found within and without of cells. These fibres hold organs together and in place as well as being part of bone structure and holding bones together. These fibres are collagen, elastin and reticulum. At the same time there are other fibrous proteins in the bodies of animals. Of particular prominence in vertebrates is the protein keratin, which is group of insoluble fibrous proteins that form the outer layer of skin, scales, nails and claws, and hooves and horns. For some reason these are not included in the technical zoological definition of “fibre” but are most certainly fibrous by nature, although comparatively much less evidently so in their gross structure. 

Does that provide the info you were seeking?

Blue


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## andynic07 (Feb 17, 2014)

Sometimes I post from my phone (fone) and don't proof read my posts. If I accidentally press the wrong letter the phone will auto correct and sometimes replaces with the wrong word. Yes mate thanks for that very informative.


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## bdav70 (Feb 18, 2014)

it might be an oversimplification, but perhaps it's worth going for something which seems to best approximate prey items found in the wild, in which case i'd have thought pinkies were more scarce


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Feb 18, 2014)

I try to get my hatchies feeding strait onto rats from the get go. I do this because I wouldn't want a less experienced keeper having trouble converting them onto rats later on in life. I am not sure about the additional nutrients but in my eyes snakes have gone eating rats there whole life in captivity before and strived. Just because mice (might) have additional benefits for a snake doesn't mean hatchies eating rats wont grow well.
Another reason i only feed rats to my hatchies is because I breed rats not mice and they are readily available for me. 
My two cents anyway.
Cheers Liam


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## Ramy (Feb 18, 2014)

bdav70 said:


> it might be an oversimplification, but perhaps it's worth going for something which seems to best approximate prey items found in the wild, in which case i'd have thought pinkies were more scarce



By that logic, i'd say keep them on pinkies for longer. Thinking about it, my guess is that the majority of hatchling pythons who survive in the wild are the ones who find nests. Baby mice, rats and birds are underdeveloped and offer the lease resistance to a tiny python.

Even when they're bigger, they've got a better chance of eating a whole nest of babies than they do of eating the mother. Mothers come and go, they fight back, and they run away.

Also, most hatchlings wouldn't survive in the wild, so we're not aiming to give them the odds they get in the wild we're aiming to give them the best possible chance. Just because in the wild they're eating what is basically jelly beans, doesn't mean it's the best thing for them.


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## bdav70 (Feb 19, 2014)

Ramy said:


> Just because in the wild they're eating what is basically jelly beans, doesn't mean it's the best thing for them.


I think you may have mistaken which side of the argument I was angling toward in my post, but it seems like we both arrived at the same conclusion haha 



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