# A bit of a rant.



## pixie (Jul 15, 2013)

Well guys, here is my rant for tonight, If you're an anti-vaxxer please stop reading now...

the vaccination "debate" has been getting a lot of telly recently because of the group the "Australian Vaccination Network" they use bully tactics on their facebook page and ban anyone who tries to give them updated information proving there is no link between vaccines and autism, recently I have found out that Jenny McCarthy (Jim Carrey's ex wife and a HUUUGE anti-vaxxer) is rumoured to be joining the american telly show "The view". I don't watch the view but I feel as though the target audience of the show is possibly the most vulnerable to her influence.
 
Anyway, I think it really sucks that people are able to spread dangerous misinformation through all aspects of the media! I know it shouldn't bother me cause I'm a fully vaccinated, healthy adult, but for a microbiology subject at uni we watched a DVD showing the effects of polio, and also showing a recent case of pertussis, watching thing young baby struggle to breathe brought tears to my eyes and I was extremely upset by the video.


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## sd1981 (Jul 15, 2013)

Firstly, im going to start by saying that Im not against vaccination, I was vaccinated as a child and i have had no periods of illness ever in my life....

My now 3 yo son had his 18 month vaccination as per the vaccination schedule that the Medical Association puts out. After having his vaccination, he started to break out in small spots, almost like a measles rash. We were advised that he may have a minor reaction to this as it was a stronger vaccination than he had received prior. The rash lingered and about a week later, my son had a major reaction after ingesting some milk chocolate m&m's. The minor spotty rash blew out into large welts and blotches covering approximately 90% of his body also leading to anaphylaxis and other major problems.... After around 10-12 months of food hypersensitivity to almost everything that was being given to him, the doctors realised that this adverse reaction had been brought upon by one of his vaccinations. Up until recently he has been suffering hypersensitivity to plenty of foods which had never been a problem prior to his immunisation and my wife and I are now concerned about whether he will have a reaction after eating anything. I don't blame the doctors for any of the problems, but I do think about the new variations of disease and illness becoming prevailant since the introductions of vaccination, and whether these vaccines are potentially causing other health issues at all... My son is now fine, but we hold our breath if he's eating something and stops chewing, and we're continually asking if he's ok while eating as this issue could potentially end his life.... I'm not against immunisation, but I do feel that people who spout the rubbish about non immunised kids infecting their immunised children need to understand that it would really be the other way around (the immunised kids should in theory, be stronger in antibodies than the non immunised kids, thus protecting them and leaving the non immunised kids exposed to any virus/illness).

Theres my rant for the day.....


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 15, 2013)

It should all be about herd safety - the unvaccinated in our population are putting the entire population at risk. The quackery that goes with the "against" arguments is simply stupid.

I doubt very much that any doctor would come out, after 10-12 months, and absolutely attribute your child's food sensitivity to a vaccination a year before. That would be an impossible bow to draw. Food allergies can manifest themselves at any time in anyone's life, who's to say that something in the compounds and chemicals in M&Ms didn't kick off the reaction you saw?

There are vast numbers more children worldwide who die or live debilitated lives because they were NOT vaccinated, than there are kids who suffer or die because they were vaccinated. 

Jamie


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## Ramy (Jul 15, 2013)

I agree with SD1981. It sucks, but every now and then there are people who react severely to vaccines. It sucks. Some people are allergic to products in the vaccines and can't continue them, some people have a worse reaction to them. I'm sorry to hear that your son had such a severe reaction, seeing someone young have an autoimmune reaction like that is pretty scary. Sounds like he had a trigger-happy immune system to begin with?

Fortunately, he's in the minority. And if everyone else gets their vaccinations, even if he doesn't get any others, he should be protected from those illnesses. Because it's all about herd immunity.

Also, as to your other comment:
"but I do think about the new variations of disease and illness becoming prevailant since the introductions of vaccination, and whether these vaccines are potentially causing other health issues at all... "
I'd like to point out that most illnesses that appear to be becoming more prevailent are usually just becoming more frequently diagnosed. There is a big difference. Sure, there's an observable pattern between vaccines and increasing diagnosis of diseases, but the causation is more likely to be MEDICAL RESEARCH. Autism was defined as we currently know it in the 1900s, where vaccinations were introduced in the 1700s. It's taken us a very long time to begin to understand mental illness, the word autism was originally coined to describe behaviour in people with schizophrenia (That's my new fact for the day). The increasing diagnosis of things like MS and Autism and even breast cancer is all because we're learning how to diagnose it, not because we're introducing harmful pathogens into our bodies. We've also got drastically increased life expenctancies over the last few hundred years, so I think that's a good enough reason to trust the research that says vaccines HELP.

Sorry, it's just an easy rant to join in on.


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## Jacknife (Jul 15, 2013)

pixie said:


> Well guys, here is my rant for tonight, If you're an anti-vaxxer please stop reading now...
> 
> the vaccination "debate" has been getting a lot of telly recently because of the group the "Australian Vaccination Network" they use bully tactics on their facebook page and ban anyone who tries to give them updated information proving there is no link between vaccines and autism, recently I have found out that Jenny McCarthy (Jim Carrey's ex wife and a HUUUGE anti-vaxxer) is rumoured to be joining the american telly show "The view". I don't watch the view but I feel as though the target audience of the show is possibly the most vulnerable to her influence.
> 
> Anyway, I think it really sucks that people are able to spread dangerous misinformation through all aspects of the media! I know it shouldn't bother me cause I'm a fully vaccinated, healthy adult, but for a microbiology subject at uni we watched a DVD showing the effects of polio, and also showing a recent case of pertussis, watching thing young baby struggle to breathe brought tears to my eyes and I was extremely upset by the video.



Stupid people will be stupid people. And stupid people will always listen to other stupid people.
If anyone is dumb enough to watch The View and take JENNY MCCARTHY'S advice - on anything! - then they pretty much deserve the stupidity river that awaits...


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## Steveycrack (Jul 15, 2013)

Badsville said:


> Stupid people will be stupid people. And stupid people will always listen to other stupid people.
> If anyone is dumb enough to watch The View and take JENNY MCCARTHY'S advice - on anything! - then they pretty much deserve the stupidity river that awaits...



^ This


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## Varanoidea (Jul 15, 2013)

This is a statistical debate. Vaccinated children who develop health issues are much much lower than people who die due to not being vaccinated. To single out a single individual child who develops autism and then go screaming 'VACCINATIONS ARE CAUSING THIS!' is arrogant and childish.

EDIT: I am for vaccination, but I don't believe in stopping your child eating dirt and locking them away. The immune system needs to be exposed to the dirt and the mild nasties in the environment in order to train itself against such things. Preventing this and your child will be made of glass. That said I don't want natural selection to take it's course and have my child killed by an illness as nature intended, so I'll vaccinate. At the end of the day, nobody can tell someone else what to do with their child.


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## Ramy (Jul 15, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> At the end of the day, nobody can tell someone else what to do with their child.



Except that with vaccinations, people not vaccinating their kids is doing harm to other people too. Especially those people who can't have vaccines for whatever reason, or who don't develop an immunity after the vaccine (It happens). Those people are only protected by the herd immunity, so the people making stupid decisions aren't just risking their own child's health. I think as a group we have the right to tell people that they have to vaccinate if it's reasonable to do so. Otherwise it stops working.


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## pixie (Jul 15, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> I am for vaccination, but I don't believe in stopping your child eating dirt and locking them away. The immune system needs to be exposed to the dirt and the mild nasties in the environment in order to train itself against such things. Preventing this and your child will be made of glass. That said I don't want natural selection to take it's course and have my child killed by an illness as nature intended, so I'll vaccinate. At the end of the day, nobody can tell someone else what to do with their child.



Firstly - I am a supporter of letting kids eat dirt!
Secondly, the sad reality is that being able to get pregnant does not guarantee people know what's best for their children.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 15, 2013)

It's interesting that we have to have up-to-date vaccinations for our dogs & cats when they go into boarding facilities. The same should apply to kids going to school or kindy. You only have to see a child (or even an adult) with whooping cough - to name one disease that is making a comeback because of low immunisation rates - to understand the distress this disease causes.

Jamie


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## Varanoidea (Jul 15, 2013)

Ramy said:


> Except that with vaccinations, people not vaccinating their kids is doing harm to other people too. Especially those people who can't have vaccines for whatever reason, or who don't develop an immunity after the vaccine (It happens). Those people are only protected by the herd immunity, so the people making stupid decisions aren't just risking their own child's health. I think as a group we have the right to tell people that they have to vaccinate if it's reasonable to do so. Otherwise it stops working.



While that is a possibility and I somewhat agree in no future will people be allowed to tell others what they have to do with their child. It will just never happen on moral grounds, so that isn't a valid argument to make.


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## Ramy (Jul 15, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> It's interesting that we have to have up-to-date vaccinations for our dogs & cats when they go into boarding facilities. The same should apply to kids going to school or kindy.



I believe there's pressure to allow pre-schools and daycare to deny access to unvaccinated children. Obviously you can't do that with school in general because it's compulsory, and it'll be a shame if it penalises children who are allergic. I hope it ends up being people who have _chosen_ not to vaccinate. But I think it's a good idea.


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## sd1981 (Jul 15, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> It should all be about herd safety - the unvaccinated in our population are putting the entire population at risk. The quackery that goes with the "against" arguments is simply stupid.
> 
> I doubt very much that any doctor would come out, after 10-12 months, and absolutely attribute your child's food sensitivity to a vaccination a year before. That would be an impossible bow to draw. Food allergies can manifest themselves at any time in anyone's life, who's to say that something in the compounds and chemicals in M&Ms didn't kick off the reaction you saw?
> 
> ...




I'm not against vaccination, and I do believe that having people vaccinated does build up their immune system and that can only be a good thing. My comment about the kids who are immunised not being the ones at risk is based on the theory that if youre immunised, you are more likely to be immune to those viruses, so a non immunised person would be at a higher risk than an immune one.... ie: a dog who has had the parvo vaccine would be safer to interact with an infected dog, than a non immunised dog playing with a parvo infected puppy ( please correct me if Im wrong). Getting back to my sons issue, The specialists in my sons case, made the initial diagnosis within a few weeks of the immunisation and the fact that it continued for 10-12 months was something that they believed to confirm their earlier diagnosis.My son has had allergies tests done, and has been confirmed to be not allergic to any raw foods, preservatives or insects, this was only able to be done after the reaction subsided completely, as the sensitivity would create false readings in pretty much everything... There have been many documented cases worldwide in which immunisations have kick started any weaknesses within a persons immune system, and it can be debated until the cows come home as to the origins of these issues. We chose to do it, and had side effects which were extreme but documented as a possibility for that immunisation, and thankfully didnt cause any irreversible damage to our son. We've been advised by the specialists that looked after our son, that for his 4 year vacs, that he should be admitted to have them done, just as a precaution... It's scary, and we can only go off the information we're given, so its very important to ensure that the right information is delivered. My wife and I do plan on continuing with the vaccinations because we both believe that it's safer for our children... It's a risk, but surely the risks are far outweighed by the rewards...
cheers,
Simon


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## RubberDucky (Jul 15, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you go overseas to certain countries, you need to be immunised and show those papers? - Just a thought.

I think parents who don't give their kids vaccines do their kids a disservice. While some children do have bad reactions to vaccines... imagine if they got the real thing? I would assume that it could have been a lot worse, that's not to say having a child become ill due to vaccination isn't the most scariest thing on the planet - anything with your babies health on the line is scary.

What I'm more worried about is parent's who don't allow their children to be exposed to the nasty's..dirt...bacteria in the dirt... kids at pre-school. I knew a kid who's parent's were religious cleaners, the poor boy wasn't allowed to play in the sandpit at lunch, he wasn't allowed to go on the jungle equipment. He ALWAYS got sick. He was always sick with a cold, or a flu, or a fever. His parent's wouldn't let him come to school for one to two weeks if he showed signs of a cold.

I also worry about the chemicals that we ingest as women while pregnant, or, even more, what we don't eat. The restrictions and what we're told to eat when pregnant is enormous, the preservatives in foods that we love must have some kind of impact. Even in fresh foods, pesticides, or the stimulants for growth of our fruit, vegetable and meat products.

How do we know that's not affecting unborn babies?

While vaccines are important, and I believe every kid should get them (unless they do have an adverse reaction,) I also think our environment has a big part in the woes of illness.


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## Stuart (Jul 15, 2013)

Hang on, are there people out there that do not approve of vaccinations? I would like them to spend a year in Central or Southern Africa and see if they still believe it when they return.


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## Ramy (Jul 15, 2013)

Jabbed - Love, Fear And Vaccines : Video : SBS Documentary

I haven't gotten around to watching it yet, but it's got good reviews.


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## Ramy (Jul 15, 2013)

sd1981 said:


> We've been advised by the specialists that looked after our son, that for his 4 year vacs, that he should be admitted to have them done, just as a precaution... It's scary, and we can only go off the information we're given, so its very important to ensure that the right information is delivered. My wife and I do plan on continuing with the vaccinations because we both believe that it's safer for our children... It's a risk, but surely the risks are far outweighed by the rewards...


That's a really scary decision to have to make. Given his severe reactions, you'd be justified in not finishing the vaccines and relying on herd immunity. It's the people who are terrified of autism and similar unproven consequences who I consider to be in the wrong for chosing not to vaccinate. If you know your son is unlucky and has a severe reaction, is it worth the risk?


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## Skeptic (Jul 15, 2013)

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because your child gets sick or behaves differently shortly after a vaccination doesn't mean it's a result of the vaccination. You cannot draw any conclusions from a study with one subject. My heart goes out to any parents with children who suffer in any way at all but one needs only to look at the infant mortality rates before vaccines were introduced to get perspective. They just work.

As far as the claims to do with vaccines causing autism, these have been debunked long ago. The main argument was that a mercury based preservative Thimerosal was the trigger. Well it turns out there's more mercury in a tuna sandwich than a vaccine, however, Thimerosal was removed and guess what, autism rates didn't budge. Did this silence the anti vaccers? No way! These people are ideologues pure and simple and flat out refuse to look at the evidence. Statistics don't lie.

Take a look:

Anti-Vaccine Body Count


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## spud_meister (Jul 15, 2013)

Ramy said:


> I believe there's pressure to allow pre-schools and daycare to deny access to unvaccinated children.



In Victoria you can deny childcare if the kids vaccines aren't up-to-date.

To the people who seriously believe vaccines cause Autism, if no-one knows what causes it except you lot, then you're either geniuses or deluded.


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## OldestMagician (Jul 17, 2013)

I'd rather my kid got Autism than died.


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## skittles-1994 (Jul 17, 2013)

Interesting thread.
But realistically, it wasn't too long ago the world thought the earth was flat. Cigarettes were once thought to be good for you. We lived in and around aspestos.
There's break throughs in science every day but we still think 100% pumping a virus into a kid is for the 'greater good'. No.
I have a brother who was born in 2001, when the government still forced vaccinations onto children. He was developing normally and my last memory of him before he recieved his MMR vaccine is him sitting at the backdoor, looking me straight in the eye then pointing at our dog and saying 'jack! jack! jack!'. The next week we took him to get his needle and he would not stop crying! We took him home after and he just fell silent. The next week he spent laying on the couch silently, refusing to eat, constantly sleeping. I don't remember him moving an inch the entire week. When he started eating again he refused to eat certain textures, food he ate perfectly fine before.
He no longer gave any eye contact whatsoever. He no longer talked or showed interest in being social or being held. It took years and a disgusting amount of doctors and money but one day we finally got a diagnosis of high spectrum autism, ocd, adhd and developmental delays. He's 12 now, and is still nonverbal. And this is a kid who was starting to form sentences and conversation. He will never live independently, he can't cook or clean after himself, he is an absolute danger to his self and is constantly heavily medicated (to our dismay) to try and avoid some of the worst of his symptoms. 
So before you assume everyone who is anti-vaccine is just being reckless with everyone's lives, put yourself in the shoes of a family wrecked by a precautionary measure for extremely rare diseases! And of course open your minds- your doctors are compensated by pharmaceutical companies for giving you these vaccines, and just because they say these vaccines are for the best NOW doesn't mean we won't find evidence against that in the future! 

(Sorry.. essay)


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## Bluetongue1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I believe that people should always have the right to choose if they wish to have their children immunised or not. The reason being, there exists a slight possibility of major or even lethal reaction to an immunisation, a decision only a parent should make. If this were not the case, then I see no reason it should not be compulsory like schooling. 

My own opinion is that truth and child health would seem to be the real victims of the fanatical anti-approach. Outspoken claims based on misinformation, rather than rational argument and logic, have had far too much undue influence. 

The notion behind “herd immunity” need to be clarified. Those who remain unimmunized are not a direct threat in any way to those already immunised. However, they can create a reservoir of the pathogenic agent which is passed on others who are not immunised now or in the future. The large the reservoir, the effectively it can spread. It also uses up significant medical resources as infected individuals often require major treatment. This is the problem that arises when people think things like polio no longer exist so why bother with an immunisation? The realty is that they are still around and it is only immunisation that stops their visible effects from being manifested. 

There are lots of potential nasties out there that the government medical authorities could immunise against. The choice of which ones get on the program, usually comes down to economics first and then humanitarian reasons. Ailments that are long term and highly debilitating and also readily passed on, such as poliomyelitis, cost a lot of money to treat. Diseases that are only temporarily debilitating but severe in their symptoms and often requiring hospitalisation, while being highly infective, such as Whooping Cough, can really disrupt hospitals. And so on.

*Pixie*,
Having a child that is severely ill, no matter what the cause, is distressing and stressful, hard work and hard to take. You do what you have to do to get through. My earnest wish is that all goes well for you next time around.

Blue


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## saintanger (Jul 17, 2013)

well all child care centers i have worked at have required the children to be immunised. and centerlink is now targeting low income families and single parents by not paying them family part b which is about $150 less a fortnight if they do not immunise their child and will not give them the mid year tax bonus which is about $730 if the child is not immunised.

my daughter is up to date with all her vaccines but she has had 3 bad reactions, first 2 times she got really bad lumps at the site of the vaccine and really bad swelling around it, she refused to eat and cried a lot and took about 2 weeks till the swelling went down and she started eating normally. 3rd time the nurse scared me to death, after giving her the needle she told me to watch her closely for the next 30min and come back or take her to the hospital if she started breathing fast, red spots, rash, fever ect well she started breathing and got a red spots, i took her back after about 30 min she started breathing normal but the spots stayed and took a few days to clear, she also can not tollerate milk now, she is fine with formula but if i give her cows milk she gets stomache cramps and diahoria which she did not get before that. i also notice that nurses and doctors never advise parents on what the side effects are of these vaccines, out of 6 vaccines i have only been warned once of the side effects.

as parents we all wants whats best for our kids and i believe the media and the goverment should stop bulling people into doing what they want.


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## Ramy (Jul 18, 2013)

skittles-1994 said:


> He was developing normally and my last memory of him before he recieved his MMR vaccine is him sitting at the backdoor, looking me straight in the eye then pointing at our dog and saying 'jack! jack! jack!'. The next week we took him to get his needle and he would not stop crying! We took him home after and he just fell silent. The next week he spent laying on the couch silently, refusing to eat, constantly sleeping. I don't remember him moving an inch the entire week. When he started eating again he refused to eat certain textures, food he ate perfectly fine before.
> He no longer gave any eye contact whatsoever.



Sorry if what I'm about to say come across as rude or inconsiderate... I'm not trying to be.

The theory that autism is linked with vaccinations was debunked soon after the first "study' was done. That study was done by someone with a tiny sample size, barely conclusive results, and he was trying to get the MMR vaccine off the table because he had money invested in the single vaccines. No one in the scientific community agrees with it.

Also, autism can manifest like that. My cousin has autism, she was talking for a little while there, she was making eye contact. And then one day it stops. Vaccines are done around the same time as autism manifests itself. It might even have triggered a progression that was going to happen anyway, especially if the vaccine caused him pain. It is my opinion that he had autism already.

I'd like to share a fairy tale with you. Have you ever heard of a Changeling? Your child is happy, and healthy, and doesn't cry or is starting to form words. Your family is happy and healthy and happy days. Then one day, you accidentally do something that annoys a fairy. Or maybe you fail to leave milk or honey out for it, and it's had enough. Either way, the fairy takes your baby and replaces it with a changeling. Something that looks in every way the same as your baby. But it's not your baby, because it has stopped talking and making eye contact. And it never recovers. The fairy never gives your baby back, and you're stuck taking care of it's offspring instead.

Some people look at those stories today and think "maybe that was children getting autism, and they were confused and needed someone to blame". These stories were told long before we even imagined vaccines. Autism is a strange and unpredictable illness. Sometimes you start talking first, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you're 18 months old, sometimes you're older. Every case is different. Maybe that's just how Autism manifests, in this situation? Maybe correlation does not imply causation.


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## champagne (Jul 18, 2013)

Ramy said:


> The theory that autism is linked with vaccinations was debunked soon after the first "study' was done. That study was done by someone with a tiny sample size, barely conclusive results, and he was trying to get the MMR vaccine off the table because he had money invested in the single vaccines. No one in the scientific community agrees with it.



Unfortunately when large amounts of money are involved the truth will be what ever the person with the bigger check book wants.... yes on a large scale vaccines may not trigger autism ect but it may trigger it in other people, once again no one cares about trying to improve the vaccines because the cost to fix it out ways the number of bad reactions. There is a rare childhood cancer that kills 1000 children a year, there is a cure but it is not ''viable'' to produce the medicine to save these children. Reality is every life has a price when it comes to business.


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## fishbot (Jul 18, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> but it may cause it in other people.



No, vaccines don't cause autism in some people. This has been scientifically proven with facts, not economics. 

If you want to debate the ethics of drug manufacturers that's fine, but please don't link your arguments to false facts that mislead parents.


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## Skeptic (Jul 18, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> There is a rare childhood cancer that kills 1000 children a year, there is a cure but it is not ''viable'' to produce the medicine to save these children.



More info and sources please


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## champagne (Jul 18, 2013)

fishbot said:


> No, vaccines don't cause autism in some people. This has been scientifically proven with facts, not economics.
> 
> If you want to debate the ethics of drug manufacturers that's fine, but please don't link your arguments to false facts that mislead parents.



Can you please provide the study that has proven that a vaccine has NEVER trigged autism in a child...


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## champagne (Jul 18, 2013)

Skeptic said:


> More info and sources please


 I cant find it but watch a doco called ''Cut Poison Burn''


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## Renenet (Jul 18, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> Can you please provide the study that has proven that a vaccine has NEVER trigged autism in a child...



Given the number of children who have been vaccinated, no one, scientist or otherwise, can say that there have been no cases of vaccinations causing autism. It's impossible to prove a negative. However, if it has ever happened, it's not happening on a large scale or it would show up in epidemiological studies. The fact remains that for most children, except those with certain medical conditions, it's much safer to vaccinate than not to.

The so-called link between autism and the MMR vaccination was incredibly tenuous from the start. Investigative journalist Brian Deer of the Sunday Times reported on the flaws in the research that began the MMR scare. The study contained only 12 children, who were not randomly chosen. According to one father, the data on his child was distorted. Additionally, the lead author, Andrew Wakefield, was receiving payments from a law firm that planned to sue vaccine manufacturers, earning the not insignificant sum of 435,643 pounds.

As happens in science, other scientists tested the claims in Wakefield's study. Not one credible study has found a link between autism and the MMR vaccine. 

A hearing directly related to these matters was held and in 2010, the UK General Medical Council found Wakefield guilty of serious professional misconduct and struck him off the medical register. The Lancet, the prestigious medical journal that published the research, withdrew the original study. 

Wakefield, in my opinion, perpetuated a deliberate fraud that confused the public, particularly parents, and caused a crisis of confidence in vaccines that is still playing out. The research community wasted a lot of time testing his claims, time that could have been better spent exploring the real causes of autism. He put lives at risk and caused many parents with autistic children immeasurable guilt - "If only I hadn't vaccinated my child." What else I have to say about him is not repeatable on this site.

Sources:


http://www.gmc-uk.org/Wakefield_SPM_and_SANCTION.pdf_32595267.pdf 
How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed | BMJ 
Andrew Wakefield - the fraud investigation 
Andrew Wakefield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

And for a bit of fun, a version of the story told in comic form: tallguywrites: The Facts In The Case Of Dr. Andrew Wakefield


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## TNT78 (Jul 18, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Those who remain unimmunized


Blue, American English? I'm astounded!


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## skittles-1994 (Jul 19, 2013)

@Ramy I don't think it's quite fitting to bring up a fairy tale. It's no shock that children many years ago suddenly changed, I think you're overlooking the fact that we used to feed children opiates when they were ill. All it takes is an overdose or a bad reaction.
If there was some kind of late onset autism (which there isn't, having been around the disabled community for the last decade) then how exactly would it be treated. Our biggest problem was the fact that early intervention is key in autistic children which because of the doctors reluctance to diagnose him, we missed out on. 

@Renenet you're really being close minded. Science makes breakthroughs every day, and scientists prove other scientists wrong constantly. They may believe that vaccinations can't cause autism now but one day they will know better but not until the major corporations and doctors benefitting from the vaccines are debunked. As I said, we used to think the world was flat.


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## Renenet (Jul 19, 2013)

skittles-1994 said:


> @Renenet you're really being close minded. Science makes breakthroughs every day, and scientists prove other scientists wrong constantly. They may believe that vaccinations can't cause autism now but one day they will know better but not until the major corporations and doctors benefitting from the vaccines are debunked. As I said, we used to think the world was flat.



Skittles, I'd be interested to know your definitions of open-minded and closed-minded.

I agree that scientists are constantly making breakthroughs and testing other scientists' results. Certainly, if a robust study demonstrates a link between vaccination and autism that is then replicated by other research groups, I am happy to say, "Yes, there is evidence that vaccination causes autism. Let's look at this." But in the 15 years since the publication of the Wakefield study - which was deeply flawed to begin with - no credible evidence has been found.

Speaking of major corporations and doctors benefitting from the vaccines, can I highlight again that Wakefield, champion of the link between the MMR vaccine and autism, was earning a substantial amount of money from a law firm that wanted to sue vaccine makers? He did not disclose this fact to the Lancet when he submitted his paper for publication. Additionally, and I quote from a Guardian article: "In June 1997, before the paper was published, he filed a patent as one of the inventors of a vaccine for the elimination of measles virus and for the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease." You're also right that it's a good idea to see who's benefitting when evaluating evidence. It certainly looks like Wakefield was benefitting to me.


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## Renenet (Jul 19, 2013)

The Guardian article is Andrew Wakefield found 'irresponsible' by GMC over MMR vaccine scare | Society | The Guardian


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## Boondocker (Jul 19, 2013)

SniperCap said:


> Hang on, are there people out there that do not approve of vaccinations? I would like them to spend a year in Central or Southern Africa and see if they still believe it when they return.




Well the world is full of revisionist historians that are unwilling to look back into history, back into the time before vaccination technology, back when the norm was children dropping like owl pellets. The graveyards are full of them. I do understand however, that the vaccination opposition must ignore, remain ignorant of or rationalise away the insights of modern medicine and historical honesty in order to prevent their belief system from collapsing.


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## andynic07 (Jul 19, 2013)

I think that the big mistake people are making is they believe the disease is not around anymore because most people in modern society are vaccinated against it and therefore we do not see it.


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## ReptilianHybrid (Jul 19, 2013)

Only in relation to giving kids the flu vaccine ..The common cold killed aborigines when the english settled, the flu is lethal, making your body strong enough to fight it off is what is important especially kids ie chickenpox. You can still get the flu even when vaccinated so your only hurting yourself if you dont want strange chemical combos injected into you or your kids. Im not talking about the elderly


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## andynic07 (Jul 20, 2013)

ReptilianHybrid said:


> Only in relation to giving kids the flu vaccine ..The common cold killed aborigines when the english settled, the flu is lethal, making your body strong enough to fight it off is what is important especially kids ie chickenpox. You can still get the flu even when vaccinated so your only hurting yourself if you dont want strange chemical combos injected into you or your kids. Im not talking about the elderly


I think with the flu the vaccine will protect you against one strain of the virus but there is many forms of the virus and it is one of the many others that you usually get infected by unless you are talking about when the bodies immune system is too weak to fight of the small dose of the virus that the flu injection gives you and you become sick from that.


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## ReptilianHybrid (Jul 20, 2013)

Exactly different strains every year they constantly evolve if your always protected by chemicals your body wont evolve hence the depleting human genepool..


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## ReptilianHybrid (Jul 20, 2013)

nature knew what it was doing i think... only the fit survived to pass on their strong genes so the future were stronger also balanced the population. Now its all human rights turned us into rabbits with constant food housing and medical treatment over populated earth. wheres humans rights when were all shoulder to shoulder in refugee camps in 30 yrs.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jul 20, 2013)

I was brought up in the pre-vaccine era and pretty much everyone caught measles at some stage in their childhood or as a young adult. If you were one of the unlucky ones, the effects could be very nasty. I have used US data because theirs’ is more comprehensive. The basic effects and rates are the same for Australia. 

*The Effects of Measles*
Measles is a serious disease caused by a highly contagious virus. It begins with fever followed by cough, runny nose and conjunctivitis. Infections of the middle ears, pneumonia, croup, and diarrhoea are common complications. Measles encephalitis (an infection of the brain) occurs in 1 per 1,000 cases of natural measles, frequently resulting in permanent brain damage in the survivors. Approximately 5% of children (500 out of 10,000) with measles will develop pneumonia. In addition, 1 to 3 of every 1,000 children who get measles in the United States dies from the disease.

*Vaccination and Measles*
The benefit of measles vaccination in preventing illness, disability, and death has been well documented. The first 20 years of licensed measles vaccination in the U.S. prevented an estimated 52 million cases of the disease, 17,400 cases of mental retardation, and 5,200 deaths.[11] During 1999–2004, a strategy led by the World Health Organization and UNICEF led to improvements in measles vaccination coverage that averted an estimated 1.4 million measles deaths worldwide.

*Vaccination Side Effects *
In very rare cases (far less than 1 child out of 10,000 given MMR), children have a serious reaction, such as lowered consciousness, coma, or hypersensitivity (anaphylaxis)—swelling inside the mouth, difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, and rarely, shock. Even more rarely, children may have low blood platelets that can lead to a temporary bleeding problem that is described in more detail in the “Related Issues” section below. Since 1990, there have been 11 case reports of anaphylaxis in those who received the vaccine. Thirty to 40 million children were vaccinated during this time period. No children who experienced such a reaction died as a result.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jul 20, 2013)

*The Wakefield Study*
In 2002, Uhlmann, Wakefield and others published a study showing a higher rate of measles virus in the bowel of autistic children with bowel symptoms, compared with a group of children without autism. However, key information on the characteristics and the method of selection of the cases and control patients, on vaccination status, and on laboratory methods were not given, and the control subjects were not matched for gender or age. In 2004, 10 of the original 13 authors of Dr Wakefield’s 1998 study published a statement retracting the paper’s interpretation, stating that the data were insufficient to establish a causal link between MMR vaccine and autism. A large number of independent researchers from around the world, using many different techniques ranging from molecular biology studies to population-based epidemiology, have now shown that there is no evidence of a link between MMR vaccine and autism or IBD. 

A list of some of the research summaries was provided and here are a few of those....
• In 1999, a large population-based study in England looked at the vaccination status of 498 children with autism and control subjects without autism and found no link between the timing of vaccination with MMR and the onset of autism.
• A study of more than 440,000 Danish children vaccinated in the 1990s compared with 96,000 unvaccinated children provided strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR causes autism or autistic spectrum disorder.
• A large study in Finland followed almost 600,000 children for 20 years after MMR vaccination and found no evidence for MMR vaccine-associated autism or other neurological disorders.
• A study of the rates of IBD and autism among 6,100 French school-aged children found no association between MMR and these diseases.
• A study in Sweden in 1998 looking at the prevalence of autism over 10 years found no change after the introduction of MMR vaccine.
• At least three laboratory-based studies by different research groups, using technical methods similar to those in the Uhlmann study, found no evidence of measles virus in the bowel specimens of patients with IBD. 

Further information can be obtained from the (Australian) National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance fact sheets.


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## champagne (Jul 20, 2013)

Renenet said:


> Skittles, I'd be interested to know your definitions of open-minded and closed-minded.
> 
> I agree that scientists are constantly making breakthroughs and testing other scientists' results. Certainly, if a robust study demonstrates a link between vaccination and autism that is then replicated by other research groups, I am happy to say, "Yes, there is evidence that vaccination causes autism. Let's look at this." But in the 15 years since the publication of the Wakefield study - which was deeply flawed to begin with - no credible evidence has been found.
> 
> Speaking of major corporations and doctors benefitting from the vaccines, can I highlight again that Wakefield, champion of the link between the MMR vaccine and autism, was earning a substantial amount of money from a law firm that wanted to sue vaccine makers? He did not disclose this fact to the Lancet when he submitted his paper for publication. Additionally, and I quote from a Guardian article: "In June 1997, before the paper was published, he filed a patent as one of the inventors of a vaccine for the elimination of measles virus and for the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease." You're also right that it's a good idea to see who's benefitting when evaluating evidence. It certainly looks like Wakefield was benefitting to me.



vaccine companies have been looking after their profits and trying to discredit for years, have a look what they have done to burzynski and have a look at the paper they published on his behalf. the truth is what ever the person with the bigger check book wants it to be. Burzynski: Cancer Is Serious Business | Watch Free Documentary Online


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## Renenet (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks for those posts, Blue. You've summarised the Wakefield paper much more succinctly than I could have, and the list of studies you've provided was one I didn't have time to put together myself.


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## Ellannn (Jul 20, 2013)

It's a parents personal choice. I for one, have never been vaccinated in my life. And I am and always have been perfectly healthy.


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## Rogue5861 (Jul 20, 2013)

Ellannn said:


> It's a parents personal choice. I for one, have never been vaccinated in my life. And I am and always have been perfectly healthy.



That does not mean that it will stay that way though (sorry to be a sadist).


Rick


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## Ellannn (Jul 20, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> That does not mean that it will stay that way though (sorry to be a sadist).
> 
> 
> Rick



It may not stay that way but I've had a good run so far considering I am 23. But hey, Ill let you know if I get malaria or something.


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## Skeptic (Jul 21, 2013)

Ellannn said:


> It's a parents personal choice. I for one, have never been vaccinated in my life. And I am and always have been perfectly healthy.



That's thanks, in a large part, to those who have been vaccinated. It's called herd immunity. Look it up.


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## lochie (Jul 21, 2013)

I am choosing to write thise after reading the fist post and give my two cents,

I am not anti-vaccination by any stretch on the imagination. 

I come from an educated background with a mother whom has a has degree in pharmacology and drug design and a father with a degree in chemistry and am under taking a degree in IT myself with a background in electrical engineering.

With that being said I do have an above average knowledge on the topic.
Now there are some vaccines that I have chosen not to get in the recent future, swine flu being one of them
Many vaccines have proper testing and precautions, however when medical vaccinations are created and rushed through testing without proper precautions due to policital pressures from public opinon which is a direct result from the latest media frenzy (who's job is to basicaly insite hysteria and "sell" news)
I choose to steer clear due to the lack of testing and to the due lack of regard when it comes to protocol.

Apart from that one exception I support vaccination.


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## Skeptic (Jul 21, 2013)

lochie said:


> I am choosing to write thise after reading the fist post and give my two cents,
> 
> I am not anti-vaccination by any stretch on the imagination.
> 
> ...


Your gamble I guess. My son had swine flu 2 years ago and I'd take the vaccine any day.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 21, 2013)

If you ever get a chance have a wander through an old cemetery and have a look at the ages of those on the tombstones the amount that are under 10 yrs old is staggering. Not to mention seeing numerous people of one family all die at around the same time. I'd hate to think how many more of those that died that young are in unmarked graves.

Vaccines are a victim of there own success, if people remembered what a world without vaccines was like there would be no debate on there use.


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