# Settle An Argument Please :)



## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

We have considerable discussion going about the identity of a snake that has been hanging aound my house for a few days. Last night it came inside, which didn't please me, so he was put in a bag & delivered to a local snake expert. Now I have people telling me all sorts of stories about snakes interbreeding. I won't tell you what we think it is - so as not to infuluence anyone - but I will tell you the things that have caused a bit of confussion - namely - the snake was fairly quiet & not angry or aggressive, even when poked & picked up. In real life it also has a head that is a bit more square, or broader, than it apears in the photos. He's a bit over a metre long I guess - we didn't try & make him lie still enough to measure 
So what sort of snake do we have here guys?


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Sorry the photos aren't too great ... it was dark, so they are taken with a flash ... & I was trying to keep myself & 2 dogs out of his way while I was taking them.


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## FAY (Feb 9, 2013)

Tiger snake? And OOhh..I most certainly would not be playing with it....


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## BIGBANG (Feb 9, 2013)

Very lucky you didn't get bitten by this snake! What have people told you it was?


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## Carnelian (Feb 9, 2013)

Looks like Rough Scale to me. It would help if you stated your location also.

Rough-scaled snake (Tropidechis carinatus) at the Australian Reptile Online Database | AROD.com.au


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## GeckPhotographer (Feb 9, 2013)

Definitely a Rough Scaled Snake.

Head shape, colour and pattern with clear photographs of a snake I am very familiar with leave no doubt about the species.


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## bk201 (Feb 9, 2013)

If i caught a snake and gave it to a snake expert i would have asked him, but that's just me.


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## Venomous_RBB (Feb 9, 2013)

At first I thought Tiger but then had a good closer look at it and it looks like a RSS (Rough Scaled Snake) to me, I too would not be playing with it, even though they are my favourite Elapid (Along with RBB of course.)


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

bk 201 .. I did ask him. As I stated in my post I wanted to hear you guys opinions before I disclosed what he said it was 
Carnelian ... sorry ... I put that information in my introduction post ... this was my first post ... I got a bit confused :/
I'm an hour inland from Nambucca Heads, NSW ... about an hour & 45 minutes south west of Coffs Harbour


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## GeckPhotographer (Feb 9, 2013)

Well come on tell us what he said it was. We've told you what it actually is now. And it's most definitely a Rough Scaled.

Oh and btw Rough Scales are extremely abundant in that area, especially around water bodies.


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## gozz (Feb 9, 2013)

it looks like a roughie... dosnt look like a tiger


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## FAY (Feb 9, 2013)

Apparently they have a VERY painful bite.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Yeah ... he said it was a rough scale 
But my friend said the snake guy mentioned some story about them interbreeding with carpet snakes? I'm not sure if my friend is telling me that because he feels silly for trying to convince me it was a baby python the other night when he let it go in the garden next to the back door! He said the snake guy remarked on its carpet snake like head ... & to be truthful I have to add that it didn't look quite like the ones I used to get in the house when I lived up at Tabulam (which is on the Clarence River). This one_ did_ have a slightly bigger head & a slenderish neck ... & it wasn't darty like the ones I'm used to. It was remarkably calm given it was caught & held by the tail to be photographed & put in a chaff bag poor thing.


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## TheChondroCharm (Feb 9, 2013)

Snake catchers nightmare as roughies have the ability to twist their head 180° very quickly even if your holding its neck. makes fingers an easy target. So I've been told. Never handled one myself


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## -Peter (Feb 9, 2013)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Well come on tell us what he said it was. We've told you what it actually is now. And it's most definitely a Rough Scaled.
> 
> Oh and btw Rough Scales are extremely abundant in that area, especially around water bodies.



ditto, you've been extremely lucky so far. Even with a hook they can be unpredictable. and a bite could put you into intesive care.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

We had a flood here recently & have water in a wet land not far from the house. The creek is flowing too, so there is plenty of water & plenty of tucker 

So do snakes interbreed? And is this snake a hybrid?


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## GeckPhotographer (Feb 9, 2013)

> So do snakes interbreed? And is this snake a hybrid?



Yes to a degree within species, and between some very close species. 

And most definitely NO.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

*Idiot with a snake*

I don't touch snakes - ever. 
Except for Sophie, the NPWS mascot. I have patted her


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

So a rough scale is incapable of interbreeding with a carpet snake?


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## GeckPhotographer (Feb 9, 2013)

> So a rough scale is incapable of interbreeding with a carpet snake?


That's correct.


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## Carnelian (Feb 9, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> So a rough scale is incapable of interbreeding with a carpet snake?



That is correct.


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## Sel (Feb 9, 2013)

Picking it up was smart.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Sel said:


> Picking it up was smart.



He picks up all snakes. You can't stop him. Some people are just idiots. 

Thank you for all the factual information guys. What an awesome forum!  I was expecting to wait days for anyone to even notice the thread.


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## Wally (Feb 9, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> He picks up all snakes. You can't stop him. Some people are just idiots.
> 
> Thank you for all the factual information guys. What an awesome forum!  I was expecting to wait days for anyone to even notice the thread.



We're into reptiles. A lot of us would be borderline OCD...


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## Jeffa (Feb 9, 2013)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Yes to a degree within species, and between some very close species.
> 
> And most definitely NO.



Hey Geck, besides pythons, is there any elapids that interbreed that you know of?
cheers mate.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Wally76 said:


> We're into reptiles. A lot of us would be borderline OCD...


Yeah I noticed that  
While I think they're very beautiful, I prefer small furry things with wet noses myself. How do you snuggle with a _snake? _


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## Shaggz (Feb 9, 2013)

No venemous snakes are capable of breeding with any python, It is an old wives tale that was designed to scare people more than they already are of snakes


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

OK so now my friend is peed off about the snake not being a hybrid & is insisting that the stories he heard about xyz snakes interbreeding out the back of Bourke ARE true. 
So rather than me making a twit of myself by listing every story he's heard - what crosses _have _occurred in Australia?


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Shaggz said:


> No venemous snakes are capable of breeding with any python, It is an old wives tale that was designed to scare people more than they already are of snakes



I kinda thought that might be the case  But some poeple just loath being wrong - especially old timers who have spent a lot of years in the bush & had a know it all attitude to start with


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Oh ... one more argument buster question please 
Has anyone ever died from a Rough Scale snake bite in Australia?


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## GeckPhotographer (Feb 9, 2013)

> Hey Geck, besides pythons, is there any elapids that interbreed that you know of?
> cheers mate.



It's not my area of most knowledge. But I believe some members of the Pseudechis group and Acanthophis group have been known to interbreed, you'd probably be better off finding your own information about this though.


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## Jeffa (Feb 9, 2013)

I will, but a red belly with a collet's or spotted black? wow!
Adders I would believe without hesitation. 
Cheers mate.


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## KaotikJezta (Feb 9, 2013)

I used to live in Northern NSW and every second person you meet up there tells the story of pythons interbreeding with vens. We used to live on a headland at Urunga and we had a lovely black and white coastal adopt us for a few months. So many people tried to tell me it was a red belly crossed with a python and the venom was 10 times as deadly


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> I used to live in Northern NSW and every second person you meet up there tells the story of pythons interbreeding with vens. We used to live on a headland at Urunga and we had a lovely black and white coastal adopt us for a few months. So many people tried to tell me it was a red belly crossed with a python and the venom was 10 times as deadly


Oh cool!  Well you know where I am then  There's a _lot _of snakes up here 
I have also lived at Tabulam & Casino & I spend my life with old blokes who work in the bush ... so yeah ... I've heard more crazy snake stories than I've had hot dinners


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 9, 2013)

Because of the poor lighting it difficult to see the keeled dorsal scales – there is only a hint of striations. However tigers lack the small scales found on roughies around the neck immediately following the head shields. Tigers also have a distinctly narrower snout. It’s the broad vertically flat snout of a rough-scaled that gives the front of its head a very squared off appearance, which you mentioned. The head on a rough-scaled is generally quite distinct from the neck whereas it is not so distinct in tigers. If you are looking for subtle differences, the eyes of a roughie are slightly larger and positioned slightly further forward. So without having to enumerate each small difference, the experience eye can pick the overall difference in appearance. Hence comments like “you can tell by the head”. 

That is a particularly strongly and regular banded form and as a result it would easily be mistaken for a tiger. As was alluded to, the bite from one of theses is somewhat different to most vens and produces some very nasty symptoms and particularly rapidly compared to other dangerous vens.

My guess is the snake was sick or injured in order to have been so calm. I cannot speak from personal experience but these guys do have a reputation for being pugnacious when cornered. I would think very seriously about not attempting to tail another.


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## Carnelian (Feb 9, 2013)

Most bushies still try & push the old snakes interbreeding thing no matter how much you explain to them it can't happen, they always know a million people who witness such snakes but non can ever prove it. I live in central country QLD, think near Longreach, & we get told all the time about these stories but you can't tell rednecks who have a grade 6 education.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Wow - thanks for all that Bluetongue1  Dorsal scales means all it's scales - all over it's body yes?
I've cropped in the photos as much as I can so you can see them better I hope. Note: I've played with the exposure on these so the colour etc may be a bit wonky.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Carnelian said:


> Most bushies still try & push the old snakes interbreeding thing no matter how much you explain to them it can't happen, they always know a million people who witness such snakes but non can ever prove it. I live in central country QLD, think near Longreach, & we get told all the time about these stories but you can't tell rednecks who have a grade 6 education.


Well I wasn't going to put it quite like that Carnelian ... but seeing as you did ...  ... um yeah


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## KaotikJezta (Feb 9, 2013)

Carnelian said:


> Most bushies still try & push the old snakes interbreeding thing no matter how much you explain to them it can't happen, they always know a million people who witness such snakes but non can ever prove it. I live in central country QLD, think near Longreach, & we get told all the time about these stories but you can't tell rednecks who have a grade 6 education.



Not just rdnecks, a lot of the indigenous people of the area are convinced as well. I lived at my DIL's tribal landrights claim and her grandmother was forever calling family members idiots for saying it.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

[QUOTE
My guess is the snake was sick or injured in order to have been so calm. I cannot speak from personal experience but these guys do have a reputation for being pugnacious when cornered. I would think very seriously about not attempting to tail another.[/QUOTE]
I found a blurb on the net tonight via google from some bloke who was a snake collector who had one single specimen of these that was remarkably quiet & placid - all the rest he ever had were nasty. My experience is only with the very quick moving ones who clearly don't like humans. I never bothered cornering one. This one was totally placid. It didn't look sick (not that I would know what a sick snake looked like I guess) it was just very quiet. Would paralysis ticks make them dopey? I've seen quite a few pythons with paralysis ticks on them. And I've had wallabies that had such a huge overload of them that they got dopey. This bloke didn't have any but there is still the odd one around. I'll enquire with the snake guy in a few days & ask if he's still doing OK - the snake that is


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Not just rdnecks, a lot of the indigenous people of the area are convinced as well. I lived at my DIL's tribal landrights claim and her grandmother was forever calling family members idiots for saying it.


This is also an interesting perspective. I have more than a grade 6 education & I like to know the facts about things  But having spent many years in the bush, & with old timers & with indigenous people, I also know there are far more things in this world (& in particular, the Australian bush) than science knows about. 
Am I going to get kicked off for being off topic here? I see there's a sign that says no chit chat up the top there ... ?
Anyway - just quickly  - Last year I had a city guy move in up the road. He's a builder & he's very accurate at estimating lengths etc. He doesn't drink grog. He swears black & white that a goanna the size of a comodo dragon walked through his yard, several feet from his house. He's been OS & seen dragons live so he knows what they look like. I came home & googled it & found that back in the day, there were stories from indigenous & whites alike, of monster size goanna's. It scared the he!! out of this bloke. Really shook him up. And it has me wondering just what is out there. I have New England National Park behind me. Could be _anything_ up there


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## littlemay (Feb 9, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> How do you snuggle with a _snake? _



On the couch with popcorn


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

littlemay said:


> On the couch with popcorn


Yeah OK. I'll pay that  But I want a non-venomous one to start with 'cause I'm a beginner


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## bigguy (Feb 9, 2013)

Rough Scaled Snakes are deadly and have caused numerous human deaths. Actually one of the fastest deaths on record from a snake bite was caused by a RSS. Many years ago a man was bitten by one at Kings Cross in Sydney and died in around 5 minutes. Many people have been bitten on fingers and have tingling in their toes within minutes. Very fast acting venom that is counteracted with Tiger antivenom.

As for interbreeding between similar sub species, this normally only ever happens in captivity. In the wild these species that could cross breed rarely if ever live in the same areas. I know of only one possable interbreeding ever recorded in the wild and that was between 2 pythons of the same(genus) family.


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## thomasssss (Feb 9, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> Am I going to get kicked off for being off topic here? I see there's a sign that says no chit chat up the top there ... ?


your thread and the ids been made so i dont think the mods will mind , that rule was designed to change some of the old habits in id threads , thats the case from my knowledge anyway 

on a lighter note im from coffs (well just north) and yes ive heard plenty of stories of browns breeding with coastals and apparently diamonds are everywhere ive just never seen one  oh and theres pockets of inland taipans scattered all over the place , inland just means you dont find them near the beach


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> your thread and the ids been made so i dont think the mods will mind , that rule was designed to change some of the old habits in id threads , thats the case from my knowledge anyway
> 
> on a lighter note im from coffs (well just north) and yes ive heard plenty of stories of browns breeding with coastals and apparently diamonds are everywhere ive just never seen one  oh and theres pockets of inland taipans scattered all over the place , inland just means you dont find them near the beach


Cool  I have an old friend up that way


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

bigguy said:


> Rough Scaled Snakes are deadly and have caused numerous human deaths. Actually one of the fastest deaths on record from a snake bite was caused by a RSS. Many years ago a man was bitten by one at Kings Cross in Sydney and died in around 5 minutes. Many people have been bitten on fingers and have tingling in their toes within minutes. Very fast acting venom that is counteracted with Tiger antivenom.
> 
> As for interbreeding between similar sub species, this normally only ever happens in captivity. In the wild these species that could cross breed rarely if ever live in the same areas. I know of only one possable interbreeding ever recorded in the wild and that was between 2 pythons of the same(genus) family.


Thank you so much for this info  You guys are fantastic


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## thomasssss (Feb 9, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> Cool  I have an old boyfriend in Mullaway


hahaha whos that , i live in mullaway and have lived here since i was born most people dont know it and just drive past the turn off hence why i just say coffs ( oh and you can pm the name if youd prefer just click on my username and you will see the icon


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## Darlyn (Feb 9, 2013)

Interesting Op you have gone from 
- here is a snake we think is an interbreed, what is it?
- I like cuddly animals with wet noses
- I want a python for my first snake.
Has this thread talked you into buying a snake?


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## solar 17 (Feb 9, 2013)

Just saying : a Rough Scale WILL even give you a Rough trip to Hospital


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Interesting Op you have gone from
> - here is a snake we think is an interbreed, what is it?
> - I like cuddly animals with wet noses
> - I want a python for my first snake.
> Has this thread talked you into buying a snake?


Hang on a minute there! Lets have a closer look at this ...

_-HE _thinks is an interbreed - not we! Leave me outta that!
-Yup - you got that right  
- I never said anything like that! Those words never came out of my mouth. I have fought the last 14 years of my 19 year old daughters life to NOT have a pet snake!
No - this thread has _not_ talked me into buying a snake. I have heaps of pythons cruising round here doing their own thing ... why would I want to _buy _one? It's not like I need more ... heck the ones that are here eat my chooks & I'm petrified one will eat my lil' dog. 
And as for scary snakes ... well this place is crawling with them! I have the biggest black snakes I have ever seen here ... plus death adders & copperheads. Enough snakes already! 
Geez Louise ...


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## Sel (Feb 9, 2013)

If your boyfriend is going to pick up random snakes, not knowing what type they are.. you might want to make sure you have a few bandages around..and learn how to do snakebite first aid


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 9, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> hahaha whos that , i live in mullaway and have lived here since i was born most people dont know it and just drive past the turn off hence why i just say coffs ( oh and you can pm the name if youd prefer just click on my username and you will see the icon


Um .. that was a bit dumb wasn't it?  Woops. Gorgeous spot though. And Tuppy & Jess love the beach there too


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## Darlyn (Feb 9, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> Yeah OK. I'll pay that  But I want a non-venomous one to start with 'cause I'm a beginner



Sorry, my bad, thought you wanted one


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 10, 2013)

Update: My greatest concern with snakes is not myself - it's Tuppy & Jess. Especially Tuppence, who is only 3.5 kg. I live an hour from town & I've always worried that if she was bitten she wouldn't even make it to the vet to get treatment. This afternoon our neighbour came over looking for some cattle he lost in the flood & I blabbed the story about idiot & the RSS. He told me our neighbour on the other side has had 5 tiger snakes at his house in the past month. (He didn't know if they were RSS or ordinary tigers) One of his foxie dogs was bitten & he died 15 minutes after the bite  They had a little ***** that was sister to the one they just lost & they lost her to a black snake when she was a pup 3 years ago. She was at the vet for a while but they lost her anyway & only got the big bill to take home 
We got to discussing snakes generally & he told me he & his Dad had been chased for about 10 meters by a tiger snake. So there's another one to add to the "fores" for snakes chasing humans  He also told me that he picked up a large slab of bark the other day (a big slab that was peeled off a tree when they were sawing it up for timber) & under the same piece were a carpet snake, a black snake & brown snake. Is it ususal that they happily co-habit?



Darlyn said:


> Sorry, my bad, thought you wanted one



Oh OK ... now I see what you're referring to  
That was a JOKE! :lol:
I really can't see me cuddled up with a snake - as much as I do think some of them are stunning. I mean what do you DO with them? Other than look at them?


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 12, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Sorry, my bad, thought you wanted one


You've jinxed me! 
First I'm reading threads, then I'm looking at pictures ... & then I went to the "For Sale" section! (before I read that was how to get rid of husband type people  )


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## Snapped (Feb 12, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> You've jinxed me!
> First I'm reading threads, then I'm looking at pictures ... & then I went to the "For Sale" section! (before I read that was how to get rid of husband type people  )



Ooh, sounds promising, come over to the dark side, you know you want to!!


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 12, 2013)

Snapped said:


> Ooh, sounds promising, come over to the dark side, you know you want to!!


Is there a "Snakes For Dummies" section here? I didn't think there was a critter on the planet I knew _nothing_ about ... but apparently I know nothing abut snakes. 
It's not the "dark side" I have happening here - it's a total blackout!  I'm completely in the dark about these babies. Are any of them nice to you? Do they actually _like _to be handled or do they just tolerate it?


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## Shaggz (Feb 12, 2013)

The common beleif is that they just tolerate it but there are some snakes out there that seem to really enjoy it, One of my Bredli can't wait to get back into her enclosure while my other one puts up a bigger fight to stay out everytime i get her out. The Murray Darling I have you have to fight her to the last inch of her tail to get her out of her enclosure but then is quite happy to stay out for sometimes even upto an hour, when it is time to go back into her enclosure She heads for it and slowly lets herself in with no dramas.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 12, 2013)

Shaggz said:


> The common beleif is that they just tolerate it but there are some snakes out there that seem to really enjoy it, One of my Bredli can't wait to get back into her enclosure while my other one puts up a bigger fight to stay out everytime i get her out. The Murray Darling I have you have to fight her to the last inch of her tail to get her out of her enclosure but then is quite happy to stay out for sometimes even upto an hour, when it is time to go back into her enclosure She heads for it and slowly lets herself in with no dramas.


So you feel it's all about leaving/returning to their enclosure rather than wanting to be in contact with you? Do you think any snakes actually enjoy being handled by humans?


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## Snapped (Feb 12, 2013)

I think they learn to tolerate it, some tolerate it better than others, but just to watch them is fascinating, if I couldn't handle my MD, I'd still have him, he's given me hours of enjoyment, just being a snake. 

I'm always mindful that a lot of handling will stress out a snake, but I take him outside probably twice a week and let him have a wander around the yard, climb a tree (well, a small tree) get in amongst the plants....I get more from just letting him be a snake if you know what I mean. He isnt one to just sit there on you, he's always wanting to be on the go, and Im fine with that.

If you are looking for some basic stuff, you can't go past the Doc Roc articles on reptile husbandry, have a read of Number 1, 2 and then 10. 

Reptile Husbandry Articles by Southern Cross Reptiles <<<<click the link that will take you there


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## borntobnude (Feb 12, 2013)

tuppyandjess said:


> Is there a "Snakes For Dummies" section here?
> 
> Obviously not speaking for every one on here but quite a lot of the knowledgeable people on here started out as dummies that cant speel **** spell .  so luckily the most of this forum is just that !! ( IMHO)


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## Shaggz (Feb 12, 2013)

It's hard to say really, with the one that doesn't like to go back into her enclosure she doesn't really like to go to anyone else while she is out and if she does go to someone else she is constantly looking for me and stretching out toward me. I like to think that she actually enjoys my company but then again I am biased as she is one of my babies.


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## reptalica (Feb 12, 2013)

borntobnude said:


> tuppyandjess said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a "Snakes For Dummies" section here?
> ...


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 12, 2013)

Snapped said:


> I think they learn to tolerate it, some tolerate it better than others, but just to watch them is fascinating, if I couldn't handle my MD, I'd still have him, he's given me hours of enjoyment, just being a snake.
> 
> I'm always mindful that a lot of handling will stress out a snake, but I take him outside probably twice a week and let him have a wander around the yard, climb a tree (well, a small tree) get in amongst the plants....I get more from just letting him be a snake if you know what I mean. He isnt one to just sit there on you, he's always wanting to be on the go, and Im fine with that.
> 
> ...


Fantastic! This is exactly what I needed! Thank you so much for the link


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 12, 2013)

borntobnude said:


> tuppyandjess said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a "Snakes For Dummies" section here?
> ...


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## Snapped (Feb 12, 2013)

You're welcome, I got so much info from those articles, I printed them out and refer back to them when I'm stuck, or I come in here and read, read, read and pester everyone with questions. I'm still a noob.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 12, 2013)

Snapped said:


> You're welcome, I got so much info from those articles, I printed them out and refer back to them when I'm stuck, or I come in here and read, read, read and pester everyone with questions. I'm still a noob.


From what I can figure out so far I reckon you could have been doing this for years & still be a noob. There's a whole other WORLD out there I had no idea about. In a week I've gone from "No I most certainly don't want a snake thank you very much", through the white jungle jaguars, briefly checked out ball pythons & am now reading about yellow annies & burms. Doubtless you'll see me on youtube next week being eaten - if I don't get kicked off here for being off topic first


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## $NaKe PiMp (Feb 12, 2013)

Why is it that in millions of years of evolution you have species that evolved completely independently , and then all of a sudden some bogans think in the last few years they will suddenly "interbreed " and they are people with the least scientific understanding of anything.


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## n3xia (Feb 13, 2013)

Re: tolerating/enjoying handling
After 5 years of owning a snake I'm pretty sure it's just tolerance. Snakes are pretty smart (or just have good instincts?) but mine certainly don't seem to have any emotional capacity at all. It seems like they just like to stay where they are when they've made themselves comfortable. So usually they try to hold onto stuff in their enclosure so as not to be pulled out of it, and then also take a while to go back into the enclosure once they are comfortable on my arm or whatever. They will stretch out to me if someone else is holding them, but they will stretch out to other people just as much.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 13, 2013)

n3xia said:


> Re: tolerating/enjoying handling
> After 5 years of owning a snake I'm pretty sure it's just tolerance. Snakes are pretty smart (or just have good instincts?) but mine certainly don't seem to have any emotional capacity at all. It seems like they just like to stay where they are when they've made themselves comfortable. So usually they try to hold onto stuff in their enclosure so as not to be pulled out of it, and then also take a while to go back into the enclosure once they are comfortable on my arm or whatever. They will stretch out to me if someone else is holding them, but they will stretch out to other people just as much.


Yeah - that's pretty much what I get from reading here. So ... the fascination with keeping them involves accepting that the pleasure is one sided? I don't know how I feel about that. If I did accept that as valid, I'd at least want to make sure I provided as wide a range of natural experiences as possible for the snake - well at least as far as its enclosure were concerned. I don't know enough yet about their socialization or entertainment needs to know what they'd enjoy there  In all honesty - if I had the money to provide a snake utopia playground for them, I've seen some that are gorgeous enough that sure, I'd have them just for eye candy. I guess it's like beautiful fish - ya can't cuddle 'em but they sure can be breath taking all the same. Thanks for the replies everyone. It's been reassuring to find people on here willing to be frank & who are not into anthropomorphizing some fantasy. Thanks for that guys


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 13, 2013)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> Why is it that in millions of years of evolution you have species that evolved completely independently , and then all of a sudden some bogans think in the last few years they will suddenly "interbreed " and they are people with the least scientific understanding of anything.


I'm only guessing here, but I think it's because most people have no experience with snakes. I certainly don't - which is why I came here. (Although I _could_ tell a tiger snake from a baby python - which is what brought me to this forum in the first place )
To quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki:_
Species The commonly used names for plant and animal taxa sometimes correspond to species: for example, "lion", "walrus", and "Camphor tree" – each refers to a species. In other cases common names do not: for example, "deer" refers to a family of 34 species, including Eld's Deer, Red Deer and Elk (Wapiti). The last two species were once considered a single species, illustrating how species boundaries may change with increased scientific knowledge.
_And further down the same page:_Most textbooks follow Ernst Mayr's definition of a species as "groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups".[SUP][9][/SUP]_
_Various parts of this definition serve to exclude some unusual or artificial matings:_


_Those that occur only in captivity (when the animal's normal mating partners may not be available) or as a result of deliberate human action_
_Animals that may be physically and physiologically capable of mating but, for various reasons, do not normally do so in the wild _

Many peoples experience is limited to observing domestic animals & observing that if it looks like a dog/cat/cow/sheep, it can breed with any other d/c/c/s & produce fertile offspring. I figured that wasn't true with snakes or we wouldn't have identifiable snakes - we'd have a million individually marked snakes! But I wasn't sure if _some _could possibly interbreed. I have an open mind regarding just about everything that is thought to be written in stone. Everyday science uncovers some other amazing thing we have been indoctrinated we must accept as fact. 
Some people have knowledge that allows them to figure out certain things for themselves - that snakes don't routinely interbreed for example. I still value the other knowledge these people may have. They may have spent a lifetime observing phenomena scientist are still telling us doesn't happen  The world of nature is an amazing & magical place


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 13, 2013)

To follow on from SnakePimp's wise comment, species and subspecies fill various ecological niches in the regions in which they live, and other closely related species/subspecies fill other niches elsewhere. Species and subspecies don't all cruise around randomly looking for likely sex partners all over the place, so the chances of random cross-subspecies matings is highly unlikely, except when these creatures are brought together in captive collections and are given the opportunity to interact. For example, the Carpet Pythons along the east coast, if you start from the south, you have Diamonds, then Intergrades (they are NOT hybrids), then Coastal Carpets, which finally give way to Jungles in their various forms. Despite the fact that they are territorial "neighbours", each subspecies (if they are still regarded as subspecies) remains distinctive. Similarly with other species/subspecies, they occupy different niches and rarely, if ever come into contact with each other.


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 13, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> To follow on from SnakePimp's wise comment, species and subspecies fill various ecological niches in the regions in which they live, and other closely related species/subspecies fill other niches elsewhere. Species and subspecies don't all cruise around randomly looking for likely sex partners all over the place, so the chances of random cross-subspecies matings is highly unlikely, except when these creatures are brought together in captive collections and are given the opportunity to interact. For example, the Carpet Pythons along the east coast, if you start from the south, you have Diamonds, then Intergrades (they are NOT hybrids), then Coastal Carpets, which finally give way to Jungles in their various forms. Despite the fact that they are territorial "neighbours", each subspecies (if they are still regarded as subspecies) remains distinctive. Similarly with other species/subspecies, they occupy different niches and rarely, if ever come into contact with each other.


Thanks for that exta info. It explained a few things for me


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## mcbuggsy (Feb 13, 2013)

Ah the old "venomous snakes breeding with Carpets" story. IT CAN'T HAPPEN. and yes it's a roughy...There have been reported deaths from envenomation by them...and they are very common up your way.


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## PythonLegs (Feb 15, 2013)

Ahh,yes, about time the 'poisonous snakes interbreeding with pythons' story got a run. When's the 'pythons laying next to me in bed sizing me up for dinner' one due?


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 20, 2013)

I was thinking this thread was done. I got that wrong.

*tuppyandjess,
*Dorsal refers to the back surface, ventral to the under surface and lateral the sides.

I would not take anything out of the three snake species all being underneath the one piece of bark. For example, it not unusual to discover both predator and a prey species sheltering under the same object, be a rock, sheets of tin or sheets of bark. You will find they are in separate burrows and likely enter and exit at different times, thereby avoiding interaction. 

For someone lie yourself, who is thirsty for knowledge, I think it helps to have an understanding of what a ‘species’ entails. When first introduced it was used to indicate a particular type of living thing. It was self evident that each living thing belonged to its own group and that only that group could produce that type of organism. For example giraffes only come from giraffes and never from elephants or lions or zebra etc. 

A species can therefore be defined as a group of organism which normally interbreed under natural conditions to produce viable and fertile offspring. 

Hence, if two populations have the capacity to interbreed but do NOT do under natural conditions, then they are separate species.

Taxonomy is the science of putting organisms into groups, from species to genus to family to class to phylum (and lots of intermediate grouping levels in between). For a century plus, taxonomy was based almost exclusively on morphology i.e. what organisms look like. The development of genetics has provided a more accurate tool that can be used to determine if populations are interbreeding in nature or not.

What we now know is that some species vary a lot morphologically (like the artificially developed population of dogs plus the wolf, which make up one species) and other very similar looking groups can be made up of two or more species. 

For individual species groups to maintain their genetic integrity in nature, they must not interbreed with other species, closely related or otherwise, under natural conditions. So where two closely related species are sympatric, there will be some mechanism that stops them from interbreeding. Yet the best laid plans of mice and men sometimes go astray and occasionally the mechanism fails. But I emphasise, only occasionally. I have seen it happen locally a number of times with corellas and galahs. 

A viable cross is one that survives. A fertile cross is one that is capable of breeding. For example, a horse crossed with a donkey produces a mule. The mule is a strong healthy animal in every respect but it ism incapable of reproducing i.e. it is sterile. There are some fairly rare examples where species from two different genera are mated under artificial conditions and produce viable and fertile offspring. I would reckon you had to seriously question that the two separate genera should not be one. But that is just my opinion.

I’ve said too much and will not confuse you by addressing sub-species, complexes and gene-flow. Hope the helps rather than confuses.

Blue


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 20, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I was thinking this thread was done. I got that wrong.
> 
> *tuppyandjess,
> *Dorsal refers to the back surface, ventral to the under surface and lateral the sides.
> ...


Cool  Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all that  It's nice to know someone out there gives a dam & has taken the time to share their knowledge with someone wet behind the ears. I appreciate it. You can never learn too much  
What we now know is that some species vary a lot morphologically (like the artificially developed population of dogs plus the wolf, which make up one species) and other very similar looking groups can be made up of two or more species. 
Ah yes ... I've made that mistake myself ... my last 2 romantic interests for instance ...
So where two closely related species are sympatric, there will be some mechanism that stops them from interbreeding. 
I think that's why humans invented alcohol .. to override the mechanism ...
I have seen it happen locally a number of times with corellas and galahs. 
I reckon my last 2 mistakes were galahs ... maybe I'm a corella? 


Sorry couldn't resist ... I'm in a particularly testy mood tonight


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## tuppyandjess (Feb 20, 2013)

mcbuggsy said:


> Ah the old "venomous snakes breeding with Carpets" story. IT CAN'T HAPPEN. and yes it's a roughy...There have been reported deaths from envenomation by them...and they are very common up your way.


Yes ... my neighbours foxie ... who died 5 minutes after being bitten  I'm not much into people ... honestly, we're in plague proportions ... but the foxie was kinda cute  
And yes - since I started discussing my tiger, I've heard more neighbours than I wanted to hear saying there's a LOT of them around at the moment. But honestly, if you don't think about them, you don't see them. Worrying draws them to you I reckon 

And the reason I haven't been on here for a few days????
That would be because I've used up all my internet allowance for the month.
How did I do that?
Looking at videos/pictures of ... wait for it ... snakes. So now you may all roll around on the floor laughing & say "I told you so."


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## mcbuggsy (Feb 21, 2013)

Told you so.ha ha ha..... You are going to get the bug.I can see it happening already.....Come to the dark side.....you know you want to.....


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## $NaKe PiMp (Feb 21, 2013)

is the argument settled?


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## ubermensch (Feb 21, 2013)

tuppyandjess, I'd say they're not much different from having a pet cat! They'll come out if they want (they definitely WON'T if they don't want), and as long as they get some food and water out of you they'll be happy (as happy as a snake can be? I suppose). I'm more than happy popping my pythons (separately, of course!) on my head and going about my internetting - they wrap themselves on my piercings and my ponytail and quite happily stay up there.


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