# Animal ethics



## cris (Feb 10, 2007)

I thought it would be interesting to start a thread on animal related ethics to see how ppl think animals deserve to be treated, used etc. Being a 'unusual' hobby we are in i would imagine there are some interesting views around about what ppl think is right or wrong.

This thread isnt for making fun of ppls views, but if you put a view forward expect ppl to question or debate about it, just dont take things personally.

I will start, i personally have respect for all animals from insects through to humans, being a human myself they come first and then more intelligent animals come next all the way down to insects etc. which i have no problem feeding as live food. 
I dont follow any religious or cultural ideas on which animals(except humans) should and shouldnt be killed or eaten that means cats, horses, herps etc. are just as worthy as food as rats, fish, pigs and cows.
I also think there is nothing wrong with killing any non endangered animal if there is a good enough reason, this may be for food, defence environmental protection or other worthy reasons i cant think of now.
I will only ever catch fish to kill them for food or to put in my pond or fish tank. I consider using a hook to catch fish as being just as cruel as doing the same to a snake or any other animal.
Killing or native fish is no worse than killing reptiles, mammals or anything else.
I hate the use of inhumane high density farming as commonly seen with chickens and pigs and see the harvesting of wild animals such as roos being more desirable.
I have no problem with ppl who kill snakes(or other animals) if it is genuinly in defence, but i hate how ppl kill an animal for no other reason than not liking them and this includes spiders and other bugs too.
I also think its OK to keep animals if you provide them with proper care and space to allow them to live decent lives, an animal that is to be used for food deserves the same care as the animal it is food for.
If an animal is to be killed it should be done as quick and painlessly as practically possible, but i accept that cruel methods such as baiting are required in some cases.


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## mrmikk (Feb 10, 2007)

Easy, animals should be treated no different than you would treat a human, (probably better) if anyone thinks differently, I am keen to hear your opinion.


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## nook171 (Feb 10, 2007)

i love animals all types the one thing i hated to see when i was out west was we found to guys on our property killing roos and in the back of the truck was over 50 roos which i think is inhumane like cris stated he will only go out and kill or catch somthing for a reason not for the hell of it i agree with that


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## cris (Feb 10, 2007)

mrmikk said:


> Easy, animals should be treated no different than you would treat a human, (probably better) if anyone thinks differently, I am keen to hear your opinion.



I think differant, i would probably never kill a human or chop them up for food. I also wouldnt catch a person on a fishing hook, well not if i liked them anyway :lol:


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## cris (Feb 10, 2007)

nook171 said:


> i love animals all types the one thing i hated to see when i was out west was we found to guys on our property killing roos and in the back of the truck was over 50 roos which i think is inhumane like cris stated he will only go out and kill or catch somthing for a reason not for the hell of it i agree with that



If they are on the truck that would suggest they were being used to me, roos are generally headshot(humanely killed) as it is practical and legal requirement if they are used for food or skins. I would be really not happy(for lack of better words) if someone was tresspassing and shooting wildlife on my property for a number of other reasons though.


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## Pythonpilot (Feb 10, 2007)

I am a big believer in kama, what goes around comes around. Does not matter if its human or animal you should treat every thing the way you want to be treated.


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## nook171 (Feb 10, 2007)

cris said:


> If they are on the truck that would suggest they were being used to me, roos are generally headshot(humanely killed) as it is practical and legal requirement if they are used for food or skins. I would be really not happy(for lack of better words) if someone was tresspassing and shooting wildlife on my property for a number of other reasons though.


 

the problem was they wernt head shots they had numerous entry and exit wounds also they got fined for tresspassing

and the other thing i hated is people killing snakes cause they dont like them if you dont like them go inside and call someone who will take it away or leave it be


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Feb 10, 2007)

most sane thinking people will agree with all your points n the first post,
call me a prude,but the religeous and cultural killing/tourturing of certain animals in some cultures surely needs to be addressed


> I dont follow any religious or cultural ideas on which animals(except humans) should and shouldnt be killed or eaten that means cats, horses, herps etc. are just as worthy as food as rats, fish, pigs and cows


they can eat what they want,even whales,if the kill quota is not driven but the financial side ,but by the cultural side,but the death needs to be quick..so no whales guys..but its about the pain and suffering..in some cultures dogs need to be beaten before processing because it makes the meat mor tender.....


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## cris (Feb 10, 2007)

Oh yeah i forgot whales, if harvested sustainably killing whales can actually be good for the environment, as they eat alot. Dunno if whales taste very good though.

Nook unfortunately there are too many red neck idiots like that around, its a real shame.


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## nook171 (Feb 10, 2007)

i dont mind shooting one or two ti get some steaks out of or to feed the dogs but not that amount it's stupid


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## -Peter (Feb 10, 2007)

Funny cris, I was laying on the beach thinking about this today. 
I feel it comes down to the respect of life.
Not for a life but all life. Battery farming has no respect for life. 
I was actually thinking about it in the terms of what people on this site write at times.
A lot of posters here have little respect for life and i dont mean people who fish and hunt or work in abbatoirs.


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## mrmikk (Feb 10, 2007)

cris said:


> I think differant, i would probably never kill a human or chop them up for food. I also wouldnt catch a person on a fishing hook, well not if i liked them anyway :lol:


 

I will give you that one, good pick up, I didn't define my argument properly, Saturday night kicking back and all. What I was trying to promote was would you feel the difference in treating an animal 'PER SE' differently to a human? Some people will think nothing of giving their dog a kick in the butt for no reason, but think it wrong to smack thier child, go consider. That's my point.


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## mrmikk (Feb 10, 2007)

There are some evil people that deserve a bullet before some poor unassuming animal simply because they don't conform to the 'cuddly, I don't bit category'..... think about it............


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## ZION (Feb 10, 2007)

I think I'm realistic about my morals here, but of course, feel free to disagree.
I don't like killing animals, and will not kill a cockroach when it can be moved outside. Having said that, I am a carnivore, and realise that by eating meat, I can basically notch that up as a kill. I have the choice to be vegetarian, but if we look at life in general, there is a pattern. Generally, one life is sacrificed to feed another. I don't have any qualms about being part of that, but I guess i'm just happy for someone else to do the dirty work for me, even though i'm still implicated in the act. 
Not perfect, but who is?


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## SLACkra (Feb 10, 2007)

imho just show some respect. eg feeder animals kill them the way you would want to be killed(though no one here hopefully wants to be killed). IMO if i had to go i would choose ye old CO2.

To do with whaling my main grudge is that they don't kill them very fast and they also chase em around before they kill them. if they could be killed more humanely i wouldn't be against sustainable harvest, i wouldn't like it but i wouldn't be annoyed about it. 

I know things like dog torture has already been mentioned but imo some of the worlds most tortured animals are the sun bears. in some cultures the bile form the sun bears gull bladder is considered valuable. so they implant a metal tube going from the outside of the bear to the gull bladder. then they restrain the bear and using a seringe suck out the bile. the bears are generally kept in extremely small cages. 

andrew


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## OdessaStud (Feb 10, 2007)

I cant believe this thread came up very ironic!!! Today my neice and myself travelled 500klms to rescue this beautiful mare.She raced and pulled up lame her dads a Canadian Import and would have cost heaps.It seems some people have more money than sense??? How can someone keep an animal in such horrible conditions?


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 10, 2007)

i dont have a problem with animals or humans being killed, as long as there's a reason and its a good death.


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## cris (Feb 10, 2007)

consequence said:


> A lot of posters here have little respect for life and i dont mean people who fish and hunt or work in abbatoirs.



I hunt, fish and would work in a abbatoir if i couldnt get a better job(no offence to anyone who works in an abbatoir), i kill animals on a regular basis but i still have respect for them, IMO that is what is important.

Mrmikk, i think i knew what you meant, it was just a bit over simplified, but i agree with what you meant.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Feb 10, 2007)

OdessaStud said:


> I cant believe this thread came up very ironic!!! Today my neice and myself travelled 500klms to rescue this beautiful mare.She raced and pulled up lame her dads a Canadian Import and would have cost heaps.It seems some people have more money than sense??? How can someone keep an animal in such horrible conditions?


thats not good odie,can you save this animal?what would the cost be?


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## OdessaStud (Feb 10, 2007)

I will do everything I can to save her,
Im expecting it to cost around $1000 to get her back in condition I just found all her records online pedigree ect she even won over $10,000 so it seems quality of life is only worth living if your paying your own way.


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## olivehydra (Feb 10, 2007)

I think this is an interesting thread. I think keeping captive animals is cruel, yes even herps. Eating meat is not necessary IMO . I do both, yes I'm a hypocrite. I often struggle with this dilema and have come up with ways of justifying my behaviour so as I can sleep at night. I have convinced myself that the few herps I have can be used as a tool to help educate other folk about the beauty and value of wild herps. In doing so, I feel their caged lives can have meaning other than the enjoyment they provide me. I dont believe in breeding herps for money or status, yet hold no grudge against those who do, after all, those same people have supplied me with my beloved animals. I hold all animals in high regard except humans.


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## gaara (Feb 11, 2007)

who cares, just live life. Wasting time dwelling on all this "evolved higher train of thought" will just get you down. Of course, everything in moderation as per usual though.


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## junglemad (Feb 11, 2007)

any fly mossie or cockroach that comes in the house is killed immediately with spray, swatter or shoe while moths are taken outside and crickets are left to do as they please
I eat meat but i have never butchered it myself
i fish but only take what i need. I find hooks catch them unless i can shoot them
i have a problem with killing rodents that i have grown but i will put ratsak down to kill any rats and mice that come in the shed
apart from scrimshaw i don't think there is anything that comes from a whale's body that can't be found elsewhere so why kill them?
i don't believe in cat and dog funerals especially when there are people with no food in our cities

i disagree that we should treat humans and animals the same

steps off soapbox


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## Jozz (Feb 11, 2007)

That poor horse. It makes you so so mad to see things like that. I want to find the person and do the exact same thing to them!!!! :x


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## OdessaStud (Feb 11, 2007)

That is a work in progress Id be dealing withe him now but its 2.47am there and I want to have the upper hand to begin with not get them out of bed cranky


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## Rennie (Feb 11, 2007)

Mosquitos have no right to live at all as far as I'm concerned :lol: same goes for any cockroach, moth or fly that goes near my food (or my girlfriend, she has a fear of any insect or arachnid).

I have no problem killing and eating some animals (I'm a bit more picky than cris about what I'll eat, but that would change if I got into a desperate situation) but I don't do it for fun. I don't like the idea of torturing, but I have done it before so I can't get too high and mighty about those that do. I'd prefer to squash bugs than spray them, but that doesn't stop me.

I don't know why I think the way I do, I just do. Its not just the way I was brought up as, having plenty of farmer relatives, I was taught from a young age that the only good snake is a dead snake and now I keep them.

Interesting thread cris.


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## aussie_female1981 (Feb 11, 2007)

Treat animals like you would want to be treated...TLC goes a long way... they are lovley part of Nature..This is my dog when i got her as a puppy.. her name is Molly... she is now much bigger...




.


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## small_fox (Feb 11, 2007)

So true aussie_female, I have seen some mean humans around, if I could I would help the animals. I have rescued a fair few animals from death but there was some that were too far gone and had to be put down. I wish all the best for that beautiful horse!


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## cris (Feb 11, 2007)

gaara said:


> who cares, just live life. Wasting time dwelling on all this "evolved higher train of thought" will just get you down. Of course, everything in moderation as per usual though.




Yeah fair enough, ppl can become very over ethical beyond the point where it isnt really practical, most ppl are like this IMO but i dont think i am. This thread doesnt make me feel down i find it interesting or i wouldnt have started it


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## pythoness (Feb 11, 2007)

This is interesting. but realy how many vegan are on here, there the only ones who don't use any form of animal product at all.
personally, i only believe in killing food items. it is survival and we are meat eaters. by definition, food items are sheep, cows pigs etc, this may just be a cultural upbringing, but i couldn't eat koala or monkey for instance.

we actuall treat animals better than humans. infact if i were to hacve left my old cancer ridden dog to die on her own, i could have been charged with animal cruelty, so instead we euthinayse(sp) but we don't feel the same kind of empathy towards humans with the same disease.

Ethics,,,,,,, i think ethics are personal. my ethics are quite strict, and almost the opposite to Chris. does that make me more evolved beyond the cave dwellers we came from?? or less in touch with my roots?
interesting to think about in any case eh?!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 11, 2007)

molly looks like a good scrubby snack!


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## Greggus (Feb 11, 2007)

Well,I don't like seeing animals die in the wild,but i accept that as part of nature.I don't have a problem with killing animals to feed ourselves,or to controll an over populated environment so that other species have a chance to flourish,as long as it's done as humanely as possible and is absolutely the last resort.But i do have a big problem with people killing animals for so called sport.I just see it as a pointless act and has no purpose to it whatsoever.But that's just my opinion.


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## IsK67 (Feb 11, 2007)

pythoness said:


> does that make me more evolved beyond the cave dwellers we came from?? or less in touch with my roots?



Isn't that the same thing?

On one hand you say "beyond the cave dwellers we came from" also known as your roots.

Then on the other you say "or less in touch with my roots" - such as the cave dwellers we come from???

IsK


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## pythoness (Feb 11, 2007)

ofcourse, it's ironic eh?
also forgot to mention i have never actually killed anything with my own hands, beyond the loly cocky


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## SnakeWrangler (Feb 11, 2007)

ssssnakeman said:


> most sane thinking people will agree with all your points n the first post,


Yep, I agree with this.



ssssnakeman said:


> call me a prude,but the religeous and cultural killing/tourturing of certain animals in some cultures surely needs to be addressed


The only problem here is how do you determine that what you think is right, is more right than what they think? What is the source of your morals and why do you think they are superior to theirs?

...

Whoever started (not those who mention it here) the idea that animals should be treated as good as or better than humans needs to be shot, that is the most foolish thing I have ever heard, humans are in a whole different league to animals, animals who never come in to contact with humans live by instinct, even the intelligent ones. Monkeys don't clean each other and live in groups because it makes them feel good or because they understand cleanliness and hygiene, they do it by instinct and selfishness. Yes humans can be like this too, but on the whole we are not, we understand why we do things and desire those things with purpose, animals do not, they are completely different.

That being said, provided that no human will be worse off for it, all animals should be treated with respect and cared for. If I find a spider in my home and I can save it, then I will but I don't give a second thought to squashing it if I need to. Mice and rats that come into my home are just looking for trouble, sure they might not understand but I understand that they can be a threat to my families health so they die and not soon enough, yet those that I am breeding for food for the snakes get the royal treatment...

One of the joys of being human, I am a hypocrite and I know it...


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## cris (Feb 11, 2007)

Fact, humans are animals. IMO the only thing that seperates us from other species is our intellegence and the fact we have hands to make stuff with. I think anyone who believes otherwise has been brain washed by religion or something else.

In saying that it is natural for us to look out for and favor our own kind, this is just instinct like most other animals have. 

Ppl religions and beliefs will always be in conflict it is perfectly fair to have a go at things we see are wrong with the way others live, every religion would stand against me so i stand against every religion to some extent also, i wont say any more than that.


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## IsK67 (Feb 11, 2007)

SnakeWrangler said:


> I am a hypocrite and I know it...



Well I was halfway through a lengthy reply. Dissecting your post and responding to each point. I then scrapped my reply and decided to just quote the most poignant part of your post.


IsK


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## IsK67 (Feb 11, 2007)

cris said:


> IMO the only thing that seperates us from other species is our intellegence



Ah yes. But does it really?

IsK


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## cris (Feb 11, 2007)

IsK67 said:


> Ah yes. But does it really?
> 
> IsK



well yes, a human can drive a car, space ship or use a computer, firearm etc. even though such things are made by ppl with higher than average intellegence it is still because of our intellegence as a species. Farming is the main thing that seperates us from other animals and enabled us to become differant from the rest of animals in the way we live and are able to evolve into more intellegent animals, with advancing technology. Now that i think about it, its only really our ability to learn about and study science that seperates us from other animals. Without science we are no better than any other primate.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Feb 11, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ssssnakeman*
> 
> 
> ...


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## bredli84 (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree with everything cris said in his first post, was very well put.
i have no good arguments against the sustainable use of whales for food (other than "i dont like it") as long as it is achieved humanely, which does not seem possible.
i also agree with ZION, i will not kill any animal such as spiders, but will remove them from my house, and am perfectly happy to get my meat from the supermarket.


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## happy_life (Feb 11, 2007)

My honest opinion is that it is not ethical to 'farm' pets for profit.

By farming I mean breeding them every time they can without giving the animal a break.

For instance the Staffy dog, People are over breeding this particular dog, and it is starting to show signs of hip dysplasia, and behavioral problems that aren't original traits in that species. They are being sold as pure breeds without papers, but when they grow out of there puppy stage they look nothing like staffies, even after you saw the "parents" of the pup. I really hate it when you see the same dog in pup all year.

And I hate getting told by people that I was wrong in getting my male staffie de-sexed. He has got a beautiful nature, and looks pure, but he doesn't have great blood lines. He has a small patch on mange and that is hereditary so I refuse to pass that on.

I feel like the same thing is going to start happening with herps, people are just breeding because they can. And not considering the kinks in the blood line.

just my opinion,
what do you think?:x


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## cris (Feb 11, 2007)

As for cutting off dogs nuts or removing snakes venom glands etc. for your own reasons, well im not going there any more than to say i wouldnt do it to my animals and its really just the choice of the owner.

As for breeding snakes with defects thats what heaps of ppl are aiming for, albinos bring in alot of cash for breeders.


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## pythoness (Feb 11, 2007)

you could be right happy, and i feel that it is very possible that herps could be going the same way at times. 
for instance, how many people have pipped their eggs, after they were overdue in the incubator, those eggs would have died in the wild and the line would have failed. but as humans we fight darwinism tooth and nail, and so animals that would not survive by the will of nature are being bred and the weakness is continuing through the gene pool.
what will this mean for herps in the future? i guess we just wait and see. it's worth considering tho, is it ethical to interfere with nature for the sake of proffit???


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## Oxyuranus microlepid (Feb 11, 2007)

i will not post again in this thread, as last time i got involved in animal ethics, i was suspended. be careful what you say.


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## Australis (Feb 11, 2007)

Oxyuranus microlepid said:


> i will not post again in this thread, as last time i got involved in animal ethics, i was suspended. be careful what you say.




What did you say last time?


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## pythoness (Feb 11, 2007)

lol aust, if they say it again will the same end be gained


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## cris (Feb 11, 2007)

Australis said:


> What did you say last time?



I believe there were some nasty threats, i think you should learn to be able to express your self with resorting to threats against those you dont agree with. Come to think of it saying "be careful what you say" almost could be thought of as a threat :?


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## Jones of the Jungle (Feb 12, 2007)

cris said:


> Oh yeah i forgot whales, if harvested sustainably killing whales can actually be good for the environment, as they eat alot. Dunno if whales taste very good though.



What do you mean??????? Whales are an endangered species!!! They reproduce at the same rate we do, some only have 1 -2 offspring in their lives!

And no creature on this earth eats as much as humans do!!!!!!! At least whales use everything they consume.
Humans are idiots!!! They are wasteful and greedy and down right PIGS!!!!!! No offence to pigs.
The amount of food being wasted is ridiculous, most of this being animal products!!

And someone please explain to me why human life is valued above all else!!!????? Humans are killing the planet, we produce thieves, drug addicts, murderers, prostitutes selfish people, and bratty children!
What are we really offering the planet?
We go swimming in the ocean, and expect every shark to be slaughtered so we're safe!!!!:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 
If you don't want to be attacked by a shark then *STAY OUT OF THE WATER!!!!!!!*
The day a shark starts walking down a busy city street and starts biting peoples heads off at random, then I think they can be fairly labeled as a threat. Until then get real!!
A dog bites a child that pokes it, kicks it, pulls it's tail and yells in it's ear, and we kill the dog!? I think the owners of an innocent dog that bites a child as a last resort to protect itself against a direct threat should be fined and be assessed whether they are fit to be parents. Most dog bites that involve children should of been prevented by education for older children, and proper care and supervision of younger children. Obviously there are some dogs that are really dangerous and should be dealt with, usually because of their idiot owners wanting a tough animal, in that case the owners should be dealt with too, perhaps in the same manner the dog is, considering it's only acting the way it's been taught to.
Out of all the glorious creatures on this earth we would have to be the dumbest, ugliest, most destuctive pathetic things on it. Humans are more closely related to viruses and locusts then primates!!

I applaud all the people that have stuck up for the poor helpless animals keep up the good work, and yes they are all helpless, what good is teeth and claws against a bullet?

I'm sorry, but I'm really passionate about animals (der ) and their numbers are becoming less and less, if someone doesn't stick up for them then who will????


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 12, 2007)

but bullets love animals!! yay!!


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## richard70au (Feb 12, 2007)

*Whales*



cris said:


> Oh yeah i forgot whales, if harvested sustainably killing whales can actually be good for the environment, as they eat alot. Dunno if whales taste very good though.
> 
> Nook unfortunately there are too many red neck idiots like that around, its a real shame.


 
Please tell us what whales eat alot of?


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## cris (Feb 12, 2007)

richard70au said:


> Please tell us what whales eat alot of?



seafood


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## richard70au (Feb 12, 2007)

well next time I see a whale snacking down on a nice lobster mornay, I will take pleasure in shooting it. LOL

Whales eat krill, plancton, which to my knowledge, (and I don't know everything) is about the only use for krill and plancton WHALE FOOD.


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## cris (Feb 12, 2007)

Jones of the Jungle said:


> What do you mean??????? Whales are an endangered species!!! They reproduce at the same rate we do, some only have 1 -2 offspring in their lives!



Well whales arnt a species to start with there are actually a few species of whales, i dont have any accurate data on populations of each species. If they are harvested sustainably they can never become threatened or it wouldnt be sustainable.

As for the rest of your anti human talk any other animal would do the same if it was able too, we are just far superior(for lack of an accurate word). Now ppl like yourself and I can step back and take a look at what 'natural' human behavior does and it is possible to improve, aww im getting that warm fuzzy feeling now :lol:


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## richard70au (Feb 12, 2007)

I believe that animals should be treated with respect. 

I have personaly seen the mountain gorillas in Rwanda and they are a spectacular site.

I have also eaten at a restaurant in Kenya called carnivores, where they serve all sorts of meat from wilderbeast, to crocodile.

As stated, we keep animals in cages, and behind glass, we are all guilty of it somewhere.


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## junglist* (Feb 13, 2007)

olivehydra said:


> I think this is an interesting thread. I think keeping captive animals is cruel, yes even herps. Eating meat is not necessary IMO . I do both, yes I'm a hypocrite. I often struggle with this dilema and have come up with ways of justifying my behaviour so as I can sleep at night. I have convinced myself that the few herps I have can be used as a tool to help educate other folk about the beauty and value of wild herps. In doing so, I feel their caged lives can have meaning other than the enjoyment they provide me. I dont believe in breeding herps for money or status, yet hold no grudge against those who do, after all, those same people have supplied me with my beloved animals. I hold all animals in high regard except humans.



STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD. The very fact that our dentition is omnivorous means that WE NEED MEAT TO SURVIVE. We need to eat a mixed diet, to gain the full complement of trace elements that we need for metabolism, respiration etc. The keeping of captive animals is actually far less cruel than you make out. By keeping them captive, we are in effect playing the role of protector and provider for them. Just look as a projected life span in the wild, as compared to the captive lifespan of the same species.

jones of Jungle- On the whales issue, SOME whales are endangered, but not all. And as far as humans being a virus, i suggest that you look at the definition a little more closely, especially if you would like to use the statement that we are more closely related to viruses than primates.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Feb 13, 2007)

wow so many thoughts running through my head.. I'll probably forget most before my fingers manage to type them!

I have respect for all animals, but admittedly not much for pests. I have no problems slapping a mosquito feasting upon my forearm, or spraying a roach hiding under the fridge, or killing hundreds of ants marching through my kitchen... If I was walking through the street or camping or anywhere else, there would be total respect as I am in their territory, whereas in my house they aren't respecting mine.

I also consider humans a pest to this planet. Sure we have done many great things, built cities, advanced technology (including this wonderful computer I am using to convey my thoughts to this community) but then we have built machines to fuel our laziness and help us spread all over the earth, and cause insane amounts of pollution and waste.



pythoness said:


> we actuall treat animals better than humans. infact if i were to hacve left my old cancer ridden dog to die on her own, i could have been charged with animal cruelty, so instead we euthinayse(sp) but we don't feel the same kind of empathy towards humans with the same disease.


I agree with this. Humans euthanise their pets as soon as they become sick, old or inconvenient to look after.. but people suffering in hospitals or at home with various disorders or illnesses, either incurable or curable at a horrible price (my aunt had breast cancer, and so they removed her breast. To replace it, they took muscle out of her back and lumped it where her breast was. She died 2 years later from cancer anyway, so she spent the last 2 years of her life in pain and with only one useful arm, she couldn't lift the other to even put sugar in her coffee)
Personally I think that people need to let go, enjoy the time you had with them but just let go when it's time to go! Having someone living by a thread with tubes coming out of everywhere for their last years of life, just so you can see them a few more times, sounds a bit selfish to me. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to die alone, but I don't want to be dragged along uselessly either. oops got a bit off-topic. My point was moreso not only the sick humans, but also the ones born with defects. 
Geez I probably sound horrible now.. but what happened to natural selection? I am sure if I ever have a deformed or mentally challenged child I would only want the best for them, but what is the best for them? I don't think its up to anyone to decide, but if a monkey or giraffe or penguin or lizard was born with defects, I doubt they would see their first birthday. 
That's all I have to say about that.

I thought that was relevant, but back to the main topic.
I think it is ok to hunt pests of our native land, like the wild pig etc, but I would never hunt myself. (In other words, I am not going to rant at those who hunt pests, but I won't do so myself) I am against hunting native animals, unless for food (eg, if that pile of kangaroos discussed earlier was killed properly and for the use of food) but not for trophys or fun or whatever. I do like to go fishing, but I generally only go when I am camping, if I plan on actually eating it. It makes me sad when I catch ones that are too small, because they got a hook through their lip/gut/gill/eye for nothing, just to be tossed back and hope they survive. As for smaller ones for my marine tank, I prefer to sit on the rocks in the shallows and catch them with a net (or personal preference of 2 clear plastic cups :lol: I have caught more with the cups than the net!) I prefer this method because they aren't harmed or in pain. If there was a way of catching big fish without pain (or forking out a fortune to buy a boat with a net) then I would use that method.

I remember in primary school we did a project on zoo life for animals, and how they have improved to more realistic environments rather than gorillas and tigers in cages. I noticed the smaller animals didn't get much difference, noteably the snakes and lizards still living behind glass. I suppose considering they are a display animal because it is a zoo after all, that there is only so far into realism that they can go. As for owning them in your own home, I consider it ok to have reptiles living in a decent size enclosure (proportionate to their size of course) as long as they get some exercise occasionally (that is what I call handling, and/or taking them out for some sun time) Every pet needs it; your dog runs in circles in your yard all day but loves to go for a walk. When I have animals living in my house under my care, they get the best life I can afford - in time and money - to give them, as it is my responsibility to ensure they are safe and healthy, physically and mentally. Kudos to those who treat their pets similarly, shame on those who treat their pets with disrespect (beating, malnutrition, etc) sometimes I feel that people should need a licence to own any animal, including cats and dogs....

Good thing I forgot some of my thoughts because this post would have been even longer! :lol: 
Sorry for getting slightly off-topic but I considered it all relevant.
-Penny


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## Mrs Mac (Feb 13, 2007)

Ok my opinion, i personally don't believe in religon. I do believe in treating everything in the world as you yourself wish to be treated. I haven't eaten meat for more than 15 years, i'm as healthy as can be and DON'T NEED MEAT TO SURVIVE!, although i have nothing against the ppl that do eat it, thats there choice. I am in the biggest way against the farms and other places that kill inhumanly for meat product or pleasure. I believe humans can be rediculously cruel. Animals should be respected and treated fairly


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## croc_hunter_penny (Feb 13, 2007)

hehe I need to learn how to type my thoughts in not-so-many-words like Mrs Mac 

sorry again for the insanely long answer...


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## Heapy22 (Feb 13, 2007)

Simply put we need to eat some animals to live that is a law of nature. Animals do this as well. It is only humans that maim and destroy things for their own pleasure. Just one of the many reasons my conscience would rest easier with crippling or killing a human rather than an animal.


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## Chris1 (Feb 13, 2007)

I believe in quality of life.
if someone doesnt want to provide the best quality life they can to their pets or children they dont deserve to have them.
i totally disagree with pig and chicken farming, cows and sheep i can deal with cos they get to roam around on pastures with their cow/sheep friends....yeah, i know transporting them to a slaughter house and stuff is stressful and pretty nasty, but in general they have a decent life.
fish i can deal with cos theyre 'free' in the ocean till they get caught, they have quality of life till then.
death should be quick and humane....people need to eat, animals need to eat, thats the way the food chain was intended to be.
i dont use any poisons, i could never bait a rat or spray a roach, but i'm happy to chase a roach down and splat it with a shoe or use rat or mouse traps that do the job quickly. In general i keep things clean to not attract things i dont want around.
i was vegetarian for 15 years because i didnt think it was fair to farm animals, i still dont eat pigs or chicken, but have found i have alot more energy after 6 hours sleep than i had with 12 hours sleep since i started eating meat again. (beef)


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## olivehydra (Feb 13, 2007)

junglist* said:


> STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD. The very fact that our dentition is omnivorous means that WE NEED MEAT TO SURVIVE. We need to eat a mixed diet, to gain the full complement of trace elements that we need for metabolism, respiration etc. The keeping of captive animals is actually far less cruel than you make out. By keeping them captive, we are in effect playing the role of protector and provider for them. Just look as a projected life span in the wild, as compared to the captive lifespan of the same species.
> 
> jones of Jungle- On the whales issue, SOME whales are endangered, but not all. And as far as humans being a virus, i suggest that you look at the definition a little more closely, especially if you would like to use the statement that we are more closely related to viruses than primates.



Wow such wisdom, may I ask where you learnt this??


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## Inkslinger (Feb 13, 2007)

Much prefer animals people leave a lot to be desired


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 13, 2007)




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## IsK67 (Feb 13, 2007)

::Shakes Head::

Whitey, Refer to Inkslinger's post above yours.

IsK


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## waruikazi (Feb 13, 2007)

You know... if you don't eat meat your hair can fall out. It is actually a required part of our diet.

My thoughts and feelings on this subject... I think animals should be kept healthy. Animals that are reasonably intelligent, ie mammals and birds, should be kept healthy and occupied so they don't become bored.

I beleive in euthenasia for both animals and humans, nothing should needlessly suffer a painful death. 

I think there is nothing wrong with harvesting any animal sustainably, even chimps, dogs, cats, hippies.


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## Chris1 (Feb 13, 2007)

u'd wanna scrub a hippy before eating,..!!!


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## IsK67 (Feb 13, 2007)

Chris1 said:


> u'd wanna scrub a hippy before eating,..!!!



Perhaps even marinade them.

IsK


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## Chris1 (Feb 13, 2007)

and bash them with a mallet to tenderise them,..!!


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## Carnie (Feb 13, 2007)

I think all animals should be treated as humanely as possible. I think those that are against certain farming need to actually go and see some of the set ups. Yes there are some bad ones, but there are also some very good ones. Pigs, for example, need to be undercover so they don't get burnt. This is why free range pig farming is very difficult. There are other ways of doing it where they have less room but can still be happy (our herps are happy in their small enclosures aren't they?). 
A lot of bad publicity is given to various farming methods by not giving the full picture. Take mulesing for example (I think I may have just opened another can of worms). Photos are shown of lambs directly after this is done. It's a rotten job to do (I was bought up on a farm so I've done it before) but when you see a fly blown sheep (and photos of this are never shown) you can see why it's done. They suffer alittle for a few hours instead of weeks.
What I've explained is to emphasise the point of treating animals as humanely as possible. This may mean that they have to be refused some comforts which may ultimately make their life better.
I could keep going on this but I'll leave it at that.


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## grimbeny (Feb 13, 2007)

junglist* said:


> STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD. The very fact that our dentition is omnivorous means that WE NEED MEAT TO SURVIVE..


 
I think its a well known fact that there are alot of vegetarians(even vegans) out there. So i dont see why u can claime that we NEED meat when people get by without it.

Im not saying that i am a vego or anything but anyone who says that we cant live without meat is just plain wrong.


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## olivehydra (Feb 13, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> You know... if you don't eat meat your hair can fall out. It is actually a required part of our diet.
> 
> .



You know.... if you keep that up, you will go blind.


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## Chris1 (Feb 13, 2007)

if my hair falls out i'll be scalping that well washed marinated beaten hippy and using his hair,..!!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 13, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> I think its a well known fact that there are alot of vegetarians(even vegans) out there. So i dont see why u can claime that we NEED meat when people get by without it.
> 
> Im not saying that i am a vego or anything but anyone who says that we cant live without meat is just plain wrong.



its also a fact that our bodies are made for an omnivores diet. look at how our teeth are formed for instance! meat was intended to be eaten by humans aswell as greens not just one or the other!


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## Clairebear (Feb 13, 2007)

Hehe havne't you seen the ad? Red meat... we were born to eat it. mmmm red meat.


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## mixmaster (Feb 13, 2007)

i was just clicking submit on a real long expression of my opinion and the website was playing up so now noone gets to see it as i dont have time to type it all again
but to put it briefly
i agree with small parts of what everyone is saying
i disagree with alot of it
people have to understand (and im not just talking about people on here as there is alot of these kind of people out there) its our human nature to kill other animals 
by nature we are hunters
civilisation has come a long way since cavemen etc but everyone just has to give up thinking of ways around it. we are natural born killers. we eat meat from other animals. we HAVE to. you cannot be vegan throughout an entire average lifespan of 85 years. you won't last, simple as that.
humans are at the top of the food chain and there is also no changing that
hunting as a sport is just as much a hobby as herping is
and if you want to start on animal cruelty think about keeping a reptile in a 3 square foot cage its whole life
this is my honest opinion although i wish you got to read my first outburst as it was much more detailed and descriptive of exactly what i thought.
life goes on
i welcome your opinions on my thoughts and on the whole animal ethics issue but please please be realistic about things

mitch


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## mixmaster (Feb 13, 2007)

Chris1 said:


> if my hair falls out i'll be scalping that well washed marinated beaten hippy and using his hair,..!!


to prove my point its in our nature


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## junglist* (Feb 13, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


>



gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## junglist* (Feb 13, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> its also a fact that our bodies are made for an omnivores diet. look at how our teeth are formed for instance! meat was intended to be eaten by humans aswell as greens not just one or the other!



Its also been evolutionarily the driving factor behind our highly developed neural centre. the very fact that we had more protein and metals from the meats in our diet, meant that there were more proteins available for neural growth.

Look at how many vegetarian/vegans have iron defficiency problems. Admittedly, a lot of people take iot to extremes ith the amount of meat that they eat and sacrifice other important parts of a good diet, but meat, red meat especially is essential for optimal health.


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## Jones of the Jungle (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree that we are designed to eat meat, just like a giraffe is designed to eat leaves, and a lion is designed to eat a zebra.
My point being was that we are not at the top of the food chain, we're up there, but not right at the top, because we can still be eaten and sometimes we are. Sharks hunt us when we venture into the ocean, and sometimes they're successful. Crocodiles hunt us when we venture too close to the water's edge, they too have enjoyed a nice human meal. And what about that 8yr old that was in the news last week, where an Anaconda tried to kill him, and I don't think that Anaconda was hunting for sport and planning to stick that kids head on a wall somewhere!?
I think saying that we share the food chain with these awesome predators would be much more accurate, because neither of us are safe from being hunted for food.
As for the whole whale thing, whales are not hunted to sustain populations nor do I believe the japanese's excuse that it's for science because thats just a load of ****. Whale meat, organs, glands and all their other bits are worth a hell of a lot of money, I was reading in the paper a while back that some gland from a whale thats the size of a grapefruit (I think) is worth about $2million.!!!!! Thats why whales are being hunted, not to sustain their population. If their are any species that needs to be hunted to sustain the poplution to prevent the destruction of the environment, it's humans.


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## shamous1 (Feb 15, 2007)

*Confused*



cris said:


> Oh yeah i forgot whales, if harvested sustainably killing whales can actually be good for the environment, as they eat alot. Dunno if whales taste very good though.
> 
> Nook unfortunately there are too many red neck idiots like that around, its a real shame.



Whales eat a lot!!!! Are you certain of that. Whales eat crill (spelling?). They don't eat fish etc. The eat tiny little shrimp. The killing of whales is a pretty barbaric practice done for nothing more than profit. Basically to satisfy certain markets.


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## Jen (Feb 15, 2007)

Its Krill.
I agree with the culling of animal IF it is done because of overcrowding, where the entire group of animals is suffering. 
I agree with killing feral animals such as cane toads and cats (FERAL), foxes and rabbits.
I agree with killing cockroaches, because i am scared of them (back off people, i'm a wuss )
I don't agree with killing snakes or spiders becuase they are 'dangerous'.
I don't agree with the killing of any animal for religious or aphrodesiac reasons,


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## aww yeah (Feb 15, 2007)

ohh where do i start on this topic
firstly i am a vegetarian. however i aslo believe that humans should eat meat our teeth structure, digestive tract and face sturcture as in our eyes face forward etc proves that we are suposed to eat meat however i dont think that we should treat animals the way that we do in intensive farming situations. yes i have senn the way these animals have been kept. as i stated in another post i have a degree in aniamal science so i have seen intensive piggeries and it is disgusting. just like in the pictures that you have all seen the pigs are kept on concrete floors in rows of pens. a sow does not even have enough room in her own pen to lay down never mind turn around. chickens - battery chickens have 3/4 of an A4 piece of papers worth of room to live in. their beaks and claws are burned off so they dont peck each other to death and their entire 18 months of productive life is spent in this cage. cattle are treated a little better than this in that they actually get to see the light and in Australia the only time i believe that they are treated badly is when they are loaded onto a truck and transported for hours and hours in the heat to stock yards then to the abboitoir. sheep are similar to cattle imo. however my major dilemma with sheep and cattle is live export. but thats a whole other story. basically to cut it short they are trucked for hours to the yards where then hundreds of them are loaded onto a ship and transported for up to three months standing in their own excretions and among the dead carcasses until they reach their destination where once they leave the boat australia has no law over their treatment and they are nearly always treated in a way that in Australia would be considered illegal as animal cruelty. even with the way australia treats their animals. many things can go wrong eg MV cormo express - if you havent heard of this google rspca and go to their website and they have heaps of literature on the incident and other incidents incuding ventialtion breakdown and fires on board where hundreds of animals die. technically all animals should have the five freedoms i cant remember them off of the top of my head but they include food and water, freedom from disease and hunger and freedom to display most natural behaviours etc. im sorry can someone tell me how a pig in a cement pen where it cant even turn aroud is able to display any natural behaviours. IMO it is disgusting. on a note to the post earlier about mulesing, i have nothing against it because like the writer said if uve ever seen a sheep thats fly blown ud know. i think all animals should be treated with respect and should be treated like a being rather than an object. also many chickens especially the suppliers used by one of AUstralias favuorite fast food chicken places which i will not name but have a look on the PETA website if your interested, many of these chickens are thrown into the boiling water that is meant to remove their feathers etc still alive because of problems with them machinary. i dont know about you but i cant say i would like to be boiled alive. i think that the hunter gatherers had it right they went out and hunted a wild animal and ate and used all of it. they only took what they needed.
ok ill stop now because this is a very long post but as you can see i am very opinionated. 
cheers


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## aww yeah (Feb 15, 2007)

nice post jones of the jungle im with what he sed. humans are like a virus and i belive the planet would be much better off with out us. hell weve almost destroyed it anyway with global warming going at this rate in a couple of years there wont be any animals left on the planet for us to have this discussion about. i think humans need to gain alot more respect for both the flora and fauna on our earth. we need to learn to live in harmony instead of use and abuse.


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## little_angel (Feb 15, 2007)

My view is that we only kill what we need!
Why kill for sport or for fun?
Every thing is a living breathing body, I am no hippy but I feel that if we keep killing and wasting things the way we are now there will be no future for anyone.


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## Carnie (Feb 16, 2007)

> i think that the hunter gatherers had it right they went out and hunted a wild animal and ate and used all of it. they only took what they needed.


 
This is spot on. The only problem is we have all our people living in cities and working which means they can't go out and hunt there own food. This is why we have farms. 



> i have seen intensive piggeries and it is disgusting


 
As I said before. A lot of people see this and don't see the good ones. Legislation is currently changing over this and will make it a lot better for the animals. It is going to take time but it will change.
I'm not saying I agree with the methods of some farmers but I think a lot of people get given half the information and therefore can't make an informed decision. You could show the bad side of most industries if you wanted to give them bad publicity. The media have a lot to answer for on this issue.


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## Carnie (Feb 16, 2007)

The above quotes were from Aww yeah in case you want to read the full post. I've not yet worked out how to quote other people properly.


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## mixmaster (Feb 18, 2007)

little_angel said:


> My view is that we only kill what we need!
> Why kill for sport or for fun?
> Every thing is a living breathing body, I am no hippy but I feel that if we keep killing and wasting things the way we are now there will be no future for anyone.


 

sorry if it seems im picking on you 'little angel'
but we have been killing and wasting things the way we are now for millions and millions of years
in fact imo we arent doing it as much, or at least we have protected species for when they become endangered for any reason and we have many captive bred animals more commonly known as pets which means there is at least more that cannot be wasted
and in relation to an earlier post about global warming being a problem. as much as global warming is an environmental problem and a problem to humans and in fact everything on earth, it is not so big a problem that any of us will live to see the major effects of it and imo this topic of global warming has absolutely nothing to do with animal ethics.
the person who wrote about who they have a degree in animal science (sorry cant remember who it was while im writing this), i agree that many people in society think that the way those animals are treated is very wrong, and i would totally agree that if someone was housing those animals as a pet like that or for any other reason then it would be considered animal cruelty.
but because of the human population and high demand for everyone wanting to survive there is a high demand for those animals to be mass produced/killed/cooked etc. and with not enough space those are the conditions the animals are likely to live under.
yes it may be selfish but its just one of those things that keeps the world spinning and i dont agree that we have any right to bitch and moan about it when its keeping all of us healthy and here today

mitch


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## mixmaster (Feb 18, 2007)

and carnie is spot on imo


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## cement (Feb 18, 2007)

High respect is what is lacking in our culture at the moment, we are animals too,albeit highly intelligent and complex but still natures children. Consider the aboriginal hunters veiwpoint, eat to survive but sustain your environment. If you were treated with lots of respect as child it would be an inherit trait for you to treat everything else with respect, we do what we are shown.
Unfortunatly, there are many bad parents......


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 18, 2007)

i feel like killing something, for fun!


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## cris (Feb 18, 2007)

cement said:


> Consider the aboriginal hunters veiwpoint, eat to survive but sustain your environment.



Yeah and some have big mega fauna BBQ's :lol: I think you should research before making such comments, aboriginals like all ppl shaped the environement to suit them, killing off thousands of species of flora and fauna, causing a massive change to the Australian environment over the last 50000 years or so they are no better or worse than any race IMO.


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## junglist* (Feb 21, 2007)

cris said:


> Yeah and some have big mega fauna BBQ's :lol: I think you should research before making such comments, aboriginals like all ppl shaped the environement to suit them, killing off thousands of species of flora and fauna, causing a massive change to the Australian environment over the last 50000 years or so they are no better or worse than any race IMO.



Its not their race thats being debated, but their ability to maintain the ecosystems to the point that their nomadic lifestyles allowed them to return a year later and re use the resource which they did not harvest to extinction.

To kill only what you need to survive is the point of that post, and to miss such a simple point is crazy./


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## Australis (Feb 21, 2007)

Cris,

I hope you have data and heaps of evidence that aboriginals caused animal to become extinct in Australia.....lol


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## Sdaji (Feb 21, 2007)

Australis said:


> Cris,
> 
> I hope you have data and heaps of evidence that aboriginals caused animal to become extinct in Australia.....lol



There is actually plenty of evidence showing that aboriginals wiped out many species within a short period of time after arriving on this continent. Many of these species were among the most amazing the world has ever seen. The first few thousand years after their arrival was absolutely devastating to the ecology of the continent, but after about 10-15 thousand years, things became stable again, the things which hadn't been wiped out came into steady state and the continent was reasonably static until white people turned up and created a new set of changes, which the continent is currently grappling with.

It is quite a bizarre myth that "native" humans lived in beautiful harmony with the land. Just like any other species, people take what they can use. Everything lives at the expense of something else, that's just the way the universe works. If you introduce a species into a new environment, that environment is going to change. If that species is something as radical as ours, the changes are going to be more extreme than if you'd introduced something like cats or rabbits. If you leave a system for a few tens of thousands of years, it will become stable and if you look at it at that point, it will appear that everything living there is in perfect harmony... because at that stage it is. After white people have been in Australia for 50,000 to 100,000 years, all the damage which can be done will have been done, we'll be living in perfect harmony with what's left and if aliens turn up and hit the place with their harvesting beams, we'll probably complain about how we've been living in perfect harmony with the land for the last 49,000-99,000 years and those horrible aliens turned up and ruined everything.

As for animal ethics, I don't like touching an issue with that much ration-sucking emotion involved with a 200' pole! I will go as far as saying that I don't like seeing animals suffer and don't condone animal cruelty (yes, sometimes it's necessary or beneficial to kill or harm animals, that's just a sad twist of fate). We're not doing the world, or animals any favours by getting fanatical in one direction or the other. Sadly, hippies and bleeding hearts, well intentioned as they are, cause much more harm than good. As well as blocking desperately needed work, irrational hippies and bleeding hearts can cause other people to turn extreme in the opposite direction, out of resentment (no, this spiteful behaviour isn't necessarily good, but it is unavoidably human nature and so it is inevitable that some people will see tree huggers and bleeding hearts, then go and torture a cat to death (or similar) to alleviate their frustration, or do it publicly as a deterrent to the bleeding hearts, who in turn are governed by the same spiteful human behaviour and go even further in their own bad direction. Whenever judging what people are doing, it is imperative that you stay rational and never throw stones unless you understand the situation first. It is certainly not enough to say "Someone killed a rat, killing is bad, their research is bad, let's try to get it stopped".

I love the food chain, it's easy to love it when you're on top, but even if I wasn't a part of it, I'd love it. It's a part of nature (incidentally, cats, dogs, the domesticated animals we eat, etc etc are not part of nature) and I'm prone to admiring nature, including lifeless things (crystals, techtonics, the laws of physics, etc etc). We should be proud to be on top, not ashamed. We don't get resentful of top end predators such as Whales, Crocodiles, Wedge-tailed Eagles, etc etc. We admire and respect them, as we should. Introduce a predator into a new system and you'll change it, almost always for the worse. We wouldn't hold that against a predator if it was an animal, if you want to treat animals and humans equally, admire them. You might try to exclude that predator from the system (such as wiping cats from Australia) and in the same way, we should be careful not to wipe species or too many ecosystems out (sadly, if you want to live in a house, you're going to have to clear some land and whatever used to live there must die. I don't like that, it's not a nice thing, but unless you're going to kill yourself, you have to accept that your life is at the expense of animals' lives), and in some cases we should avoid entering areas. With few exceptions, we shouldn't want to send anything extinct (I'd happily see many species of intestinal worms, pathogenic bacteria, etc etc go extinct, even though I greatly admire most of them), but as long as they aren't endangered, I'm happy to see any animal sustainably harvested or used in as humane a way as reasonably possible.

Being rational about things is likely to get me flamed by the emotion charged folk who resent emotion not being the basis of decision making when this issue is involved. That's fine, knock yourself out


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## Australis (Feb 21, 2007)

Sadji,

I was only joking, i knew very well that the Aboriginals had caused alot of extinctions when they came to Australia. 
I was just having a laugh at junglist* for previously demanded proof when i mentioned the same thing, using the logic that the Aboriginals couldnt of caused many extinctions because so many species remained when Europeans arrived...lol

Yet im sure he wouldnt question you Sadji, or demand data from you....lol

Previously i posted this in that great Giant Squid thread,


Australis said:


> Junglist*,Remember that the Aboriginals came to Australia a land full of animals that hadnt evolved along side a predator such as man, nomadic or not, this is going to have a huge impact on some species, including extinction in some cases.



But heck what would a layman like me know....hahahahaahah


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