# Is the hobby on a downward spiral?



## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

There is a post in another thread from Herptrader saying: “_Standing still at this stage of the hobby's development is pretty much going backwards!_” These people should know what is going on! I hinted on my views of the reptile-keeping hobby in another thread and received few emails asking; “what do you mean?” As much as I hate predictions and the crystal ball, there is some writing on the wall and this is my interpretation of it:

Herpetoculture in the US took a considerable dive this year (perhaps even earlier). The Expos and reptile shows that once attracted thousands of visitors and exhibitors, are now half empty, some were even cancelled. That’s not to say that this will influence the Aussie scene but looking at all the other trends, the chances are that it may.

It seems to me that our hobby has reached the point of saturation and the recruitment has slowed down. Thanks to the low prices, most serious reptile keepers already have all they ever wanted to have and this will affect the already shattered market. In the not so distant past, breeders made money from sales of their offspring and spent the money on buying other reptiles – this is not likely to continue because currently there are more reptiles on the market than buyers and even the dirt cheap stuff is not selling.
Another factor is - every keeper has his / her threshold. We all have our limitations when it comes to expanding our collections. Constraints such as shortage of room, more time spent on maintenance, costs (the ever increasing power bills, increasing costs of reptile food, vet bills, etc.) and family relations e.g. when missus say ‘enough is enough’, these facts can't be ignored.
The increasing costs may lead to downsizing of collections, which means more animals for sale … and they would be hard to offload, as most keepers prefer to buy juveniles.
All this may also have a snowballing effect on manufacturers and retailers of equipment and reptile foods.
If the NSW Gestapo steps in with the proposed cage size restrictions and some action on jags, that would be another nail in the coffin.

It’s not all doom and gloom, we will be swapping reptiles rather than selling and buying like in the old days and those who entered this “industry” for the wrong reasons will fall out, making the hobby cleaner and more respectable.


Cheers
Michael


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## Redtailed (Dec 13, 2010)

Interesting but as long as there are shops and breeders who sell reptiles the hobby will stay alive.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 13, 2010)

I agree with you Michael, seeing thousands of reptiles on dozens of sites, especially those which are now almost commonplace on the market - Jungles, Macs, Coastals, Beardies - makes me wonder how long it will be before we start seeing reptiles in the RSPCA and mass reports of animals released into the wild


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## Red-Ink (Dec 13, 2010)

Well, I reackon it's a double edge sword situation at the moment. It's harder for breeders to move their excess at the moment and prices are dropping. In the same respect the low prices are enticing albeit slowly new people into the hobby. The real problem is with the availability of cheap specimens it ain't that expensive to obtain a pair, pairs are bred to hopefully recoup some money or for learning and hatchilings flood an over saturated market already.

On the flip-side with the licensing laws changing in Vic and a few more species added to the list, the ones we could not get access to before will most likely boom in the next few years as the peeps in mexico quench their thirst for species they were forbidden to keep before. This is already happening to the new gecko species added to the Victorian list.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

I posted this on another forum earlier.

You have quoted a different poster in your title to the one that made the plateau comment.
To plateau is to level out so if you looked at activity levels in the hobby on a graph it would be a straight line, more or less.
In my opinion to say the hobby was plateauing would depend on what level you are in the hobby.

If you were a higher end breeder who had paid substantial money for pairs of some of the more top end morphs or breeds and with the drop in prices, some would consider it fair to say the hobby is in a downward spiral.

If you were mid level making a bit of pocket money and subsidizing your hobby by paying a few expenses, then you may have found it a bit more difficult to move animals and had to drop prices but still made ends meet, that would be a plateau.

If you were just starting out in the hobby with a first snake say and along with all the other people in the same boat who are able to afford cheaper animals and indulge in their interests by expanding collections and attracting new people to the hobby it may be fair to say the hobby is growing.

Pretty basic example of plateauing and market trends I know, but that,s my simplified take on things.


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## scottyo998 (Dec 13, 2010)

Redtailed said:


> Interesting but as long as there are shops and breeders who sell reptiles the hobby will stay alive.


 Thats the point though, there are so many people who breed as a hobby (nothing wrong with this if thats all its done as, a hobby, not a money making venture) that there are too many reptiles available at such a low cost, but there arent enough people to buy the animals


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

Redtailed said:


> Interesting but as long as there are shops and breeders who sell reptiles the hobby will stay alive.



Survive VS thrive


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## CodeRed (Dec 13, 2010)

Not all aspects of the hobby are experiencing a downward trend. You might be experiencing that with greens but in the mean time the morph market is booming. Food producers are also laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe you should breed rats instead of greens Michael?


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## pythons73 (Dec 13, 2010)

So, WHAT im not going to make my millions now.Gee i only started keeping-breeding reptiles 18 odd years ago to make millions and retire on a desert island..Oh well looks like im staying here in Aus...lol..Totally agree Michael,TOOO many reptiles being bred compared to how many people that are buying them..Look at Aspidities for instance,2-3 year ago you couldnt get one cheaper then $500-$700 each,now there $250each...Greens-$4500 now $1000 and the list goes on..Sellers are having trouble unloading Jungles for $100-$150 each,Coastals $50each...If only bugga all reptiles were bred for a few years,then maybe there may be a increase in sales,especially if more people got into the hobby..Now the new morphs are in,SOME are getting in early,as with all the newer snakes in the hobby,the people who get in quick can generally make a few $$$..Same thing that happened with the Albino Darwins,those who brought them years ago and bred them did make a few $$$..My 2cents worth..


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## Red-Ink (Dec 13, 2010)

There in lies the vicious cycle, cheap pairs means plenty of breeding being done.


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## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> Not all aspects of the hobby are experiencing a downward trend. You might be experiencing that with greens but in the mean time the morph market is booming. Food producers are also laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe you should breed rats instead of greens Michael?


 
I don't think it's the greens, the blacks, the blues or oranges and I don't even see any morph market? Where is it?
I hear from a big rodent breeder the very opposite to what you're saying. Perhaps it's because I live on the opposite side of the town. LOL


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## Snowman (Dec 13, 2010)

Seems it is heading the same direction as the rest of the world (UK, USA). Whether that is good or bad depends on your personal opinion.


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## 1stima (Dec 13, 2010)

this is a passion, Not a hobby, and the people that feel the same way about this passion will stick through it thick and thin.. 90% of us are here due to a Sheer Love for these animals and their Protection.. If WE want this "Hobby" to last, we can make it last..


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## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

It's a catch 22. We are desperately trying to recruit new herpers trough expos, pet shops, forums, etc, because we believe the growth will support the hobby. These new recruits will buy X number of animals, breed them in a year or two and then try to sell XXXXXXX number of animals. Is this good or bad for the hobby? Just a thought.


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## Red-Ink (Dec 13, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> It's a catch 22. We are desperately trying to recruit new herpers trough expos, pet shops, forums, etc, because we believe the growth will support the hobby. These new recruits will buy X number of animals, breed them in a year or two and then try to sell XXXXXXX number of animals. Is this good or bad for the hobby? Just a thought.


 
Good for people getting in, bad for people trying to recoup expenses and make money


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## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

1stima said:


> this is a passion, Not a hobby, and the people that feel the same way about this passion will stick through it thick and thin.. 90% of us are here due to a Sheer Love for these animals and their Protection.. If WE want this "Hobby" to last, we can make it last..


 
Of course it will last. It lasted for decades and will last for decades in the future BUT it will be very different to what it is today. We probably won't call it "industry" or even "hobby" any more.
You are probably referring to a small, dedicated group, which will not be able to stage Expos, Reptile Festivals, etc.. We would be that much poorer.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

As well as a flooded market individual state laws inhibit industry growth. It will be interesting to see what happens to the market over here in WA over the next couple of years, with the possibility of new species available and an easier system WA it is still yet to flourish. On the other hand DEC is likely to keep a firm thumb pressed on the heads of keepers here and continue to impede growth


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## Braidotti (Dec 13, 2010)

Maybe if there was a way to limit the amount that is being breed, might be able to stop the market from being flooded, like a breeders licence. So that way it amount of reptiles could be controlled and the price might be abit more stable.
Just a thought.


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## ozziepythons (Dec 13, 2010)

There are several factors involved in the slowing of the market, increased breeding success being one of them. Another factor that is more apparent than ever is new keepers desperate to offload their impulse buys. Realising once the gloss wears off their purchase that there is real work and cost involved in their investment long term, they advertise them at decreasing cost just to be rid of them. This has a real impact on the market value of many species, as it adds a competitive edge in the market place and drives prices down.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

Is the reptile hobby on a downward spiral? No
Is the reptile industry? Yes


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## CodeRed (Dec 13, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> I don't think it's the greens, the blacks, the blues or oranges and I don't even see any morph market? Where is it?
> I hear from a big rodent breeder the very opposite to what you're saying. Perhaps it's because I live on the opposite side of the town. LOL


 
You should look harder  Jag variants have taken over the high end of town and are now commanding the top dollars instead of what was traditionally the place of greens. The top end market hasn't gone down its just shifted focus. And in time the jags will be replaced by something new.

Granted the low end stuff like macs, bredli, coastals etc are now in such over supply that breeders cant get rid of them. But hey we all have adjustments to make if we want to survive.

In terms of the rodent business most cant keep up with demand and have a continuous backlog of orders despite prices having gone up significantly in the past 3 years. What happened to the $1 weaner rat?


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## liney (Dec 13, 2010)

If only WA would allow some of these animals through there would be another resurgence in the hobby as we have very little variety. I know this might be a pipe dream but who knows- There is untapped potential over west.


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## thecat (Dec 13, 2010)

Red-Ink said:


> In the same respect the low prices are enticing albeit slowly new people into the hobby. The real problem is with the availability of cheap specimens it ain't that expensive to obtain a pair, pairs are bred .


 
As a noob I know when looking for a snake I saw two options. There were more cheap snakes than you could poke a stick at from backyard breeders available then and there or there were more expensive snakes that I had to place and order and wait for through breeders with good reputations. I went option 2 for the peace of mind, back up service and the place I ordered from being willing to talk me through all me noob questions and caring enough about his snakes to make sure I was up to scratch before being willing to sell me one.

IMO reptiles will go through a similar way as dogs. There are always mongrels being given away but if you want bloodlines, back up service, guarantees on breeding against genetic defects or designer pooches you pay the extra cash and buy off breeders with solid reputations.

And if you're in it for the money you want to be offering quality service not just animals


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

Codered, what's a Jag worth?


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## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> You should look harder  Jag variants have taken over the high end of town and are now commanding the top dollars instead of what was traditionally the place of greens. The top end market hasn't gone down its just shifted focus. And in time the jags will be replaced by something new.



I am aware of that but I wonder how many Jag variants are being produced AND offered on the market. I suspect it would be considerably lower number compared with the huge numbers of greens being produced. Could it be also influencing the high price of Jags? I think the Jag situations is parallel with GTP morphs. They are there but only a few, never advertised, fetching high prices. Just like all GTP morph breeders are holding onto the "best of the litter", Jag breeders would be doing the same. What do you think?


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## Serpentes (Dec 13, 2010)

Steve: Costs for a jag are >$3000 for a nice one that doesn't spin much yet. Look at Southern Cross Reptiles, they sponsor this site and breed lots of Jags. I got banned for suggesting it once before.


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## Tassie97 (Dec 13, 2010)

liney check what tasmainians can keep then you have nothing to complain about!!!


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## Fruitbat (Dec 13, 2010)

Reptile Industry????????
Ostrich farming!!!!!


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

thecat said:


> As a noob I know when looking for a snake I saw two options. There were more cheap snakes than you could poke a stick at from backyard breeders available then and there or there were more expensive snakes that I had to place and order and wait for through breeders with good reputations. I went option 2 for the peace of mind, back up service and the place I ordered from being willing to talk me through all me noob questions and caring enough about his snakes to make sure I was up to scratch before being willing to sell me one.
> 
> IMO reptiles will go through a similar way as dogs. There are always mongrels being given away but if you want bloodlines, back up service, guarantees on breeding against genetic defects or designer pooches you pay the extra cash and buy off breeders with solid reputations.
> 
> And if you're in it for the money you want to be offering quality service not just animals



The thing with dogs is it's generally easy to pick a purebred, snake bloodlines are already heavily muddied and difficult to distinguish. To sell a purebred dog with a certificate it needs to meet strict guidelines, it would be impossible to enforce this with snakes as they're to variable. As an example you may have purchased from a reputable breeder but then breed with any old snake those snakes would only be as good as your word.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

Fruitbat said:


> Reptile Industry????????
> Ostrich farming!!!!!


 

?????????


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## Fruitbat (Dec 13, 2010)

Pardon my ignorance but what is a Jag? I've noticed many references but no real description. Also I see on SXR site RPMs any light to shed on them?


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## thecat (Dec 13, 2010)

steve1 said:


> The thing with dogs is it's generally easy to pick a purebred, snake bloodlines are already heavily muddied and difficult to distinguish.


 Bloodline was only 1 example of why people choose their breeder, probably a poor example due to my lack of knowledge. 

The last bit about service was the most important bit, I think


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## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

We don't really want this thread to be closed.
Can we stick to the topic please?

Fruitbat, this is not about ostrich farming, believe me.


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## Fruitbat (Dec 13, 2010)

The reference to Ostrich farming...... An unfortunate business started years ago many people invested a great deal of money with promises of Grand returns. As we all know, if you sell anything which can breed someone else will also breed them. If the breeding continues at a faster rate than the market demands, the bottom falls out of the industry!
I was in Africa (the natural home of the ostrich) 1989-92 and saw farms with many dying and dead birds due to the crash of the industry! If you can't maintain a farm with ridiculously low wages there's no cash in it!!!

I'm not saying Herp IS ostrich farming. Just that if you go into it with starry eyes with dollar signs in them then you may just end up burnt.

As long as you treat it as the hobby it is you will love it.


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## Wookie (Dec 13, 2010)

pythons73 said:


> If only bugga all reptiles were bred for a few years,then maybe there may be a increase in sales,.


 
The only problem is the lifespan of the reptiles. I reckon you'd have to wait 20 odd years to see the change from that few year low breeding period


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## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

steve1 said:


> If you were a higher end breeder who had paid substantial money for pairs of some of the more top end morphs or breeds and with the drop in prices, some would consider it fair to say the hobby is in a downward spiral.
> 
> If you were mid level making a bit of pocket money and subsidizing your hobby by paying a few expenses, then you may have found it a bit more difficult to move animals and had to drop prices but still made ends meet, that would be a plateau.
> 
> If you were just starting out in the hobby with a first snake say and along with all the other people in the same boat who are able to afford cheaper animals and indulge in their interests by expanding collections and attracting new people to the hobby it may be fair to say the hobby is growing.



Steve, I have a different opinion on this. The higher end animals are still selling and for a good price. Someone mentioned Jags @$3K, greens are still selling for a fair price and of course the morphs are right up there as someone said. I would have thought it's the breeders producing the low end animals that may perceive the hobby as being on a downward spiral more than anyone else. Or is my logic up side down?


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

In all honesty being in WA I haven't been exposed to the market in the same way as most people over east, I pasted my post from another forum which was used more as an explanation of plateauing but I guess it still reflects how I perceive the hobby and industry. This is from the point of view of someone that has no intention on making money from the breeding of reptiles. Over here they have become much cheaper and it makes it much easier for people like myself to engage in the hobby so I would say it's still growing. As I said on the other forum. I think it depends on each individuals view of and expectations of what they want vfrom the hobby as to whether they would perceive it to be rising, falling, or plateauing.


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## da_donkey (Dec 13, 2010)

My concern to the hobby being in a downward spiral is maybe more of a moral (if thats even the right word) one.

I remember back in the day when there was only a handfull of people in the country that you could phone to talk herps with and the parks and zoos that were around were very hesitant to give out any information (there secrets).

When a big day out was going to a zoo just to see a GTP in the flesh!!!!! and owning a high yellow diamond was a very proud achivment!!!! a jungle with some weird striping WOOO HOOO!!!!!!

So many of us keepers DREAMT of one day owning the holly grail.......our ver own GTP.

I must say that i was a little surprised at the "failure to catch on" (for lack of a better word) of the RSP within the later years of our expansion of the hobby.

And really really disapointed with the entire JAG thing.............Is this what our hobby has come to??????? The new Holy grail of the Australian herp scene is a "muddied" at best background of a snake thats sibs are being knocked on the head whilst the prettiest looking regardless of the health issues are fetching big $$$$$$$ and the newer younger herpers are aspirring to these animals and dreaming about hatching a 2 headed 3 tailed RP snake so they can chase the big $$$$$$$$

I dont keep any jags myself as i have changed the way i feel about them, but lots of my friends keep/breed them for whatever there reasons are.

I dont want to turn this into a pro JAG anti JAG argument........its just another view on our hobby being in a downward spiral.

I have made good money in the past breeding herps and i have spent a bloody hell of alot also, but i have always had a real income and did the herp thing as a passion, so im more worried about the direction of herps as opposed to market saturation or industry fall over.

these times are a changing.


donks


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## Kurto (Dec 13, 2010)

This is definitely more of a case of supply and demand....

Everything is in great supply... Things like locale type greens, RPM's and even some lines of jungles are still fetching a higher price.. 

I say dig in and carve a niche for yourself.... Theres a new generation of herpers in primary school as I type!


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## da_donkey (Dec 13, 2010)

well if true locals are still fetching high prices no wonder people are illeaglly poaching.

has it come full circle, are we needing to tahe from the wild to fix up our muddy mistakes of the past?

donks


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## kupper (Dec 13, 2010)

Kurto said:


> This is definitely more of a case of supply and demand....
> 
> Everything is in great supply... Things like locale type greens, RPM's and even some lines of jungles are still fetching a higher price..
> 
> I say dig in and carve a niche for yourself.... Theres a new generation of herpers in primary school as I type!


 
couldn't agree more with your post

Business 101 - Find a niche and stick with it , if you can't find one make one


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## JasonL (Dec 13, 2010)

I think it's great that the money is fading out of the hobby, whilst it is great to make some cash from your herps, I'd still prefer to see people keep herps for the love of the animal, not because what it will make them next season....


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## junglepython2 (Dec 13, 2010)

JasonL said:


> I think it's great that the money is fading out of the hobby, whilst it is great to make some cash from your herps, I'd still prefer to see people keep herps for the love of the animal, not because what it will make them next season....


 
I agree. I don't know why there is this need to 'grow' the hobby. It just attracts tools to the hobby who are in it for the wrong reasons.


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## Laghairt (Dec 13, 2010)

There will always be niches in the market that can be exploited for a profit and it's likely that most of these niches will be based around unusual morphs. Personally I think this is a good thing as the less our pets look like wild herps the better .

The problems with the market for GTPs for instance is that although there is certainly variation among individual specimens, the majority are simply pure green pythons. So instead of buying a GTP from a reputable breeder for thousands of dollars, Joe the herper could collect them from the wild or obtain them through other illegal means and get an animal that looks virtually the same as one bred by a "high end" breeder. Over time this black market has created enormous downward pressure on prices in a very short space of time.

The market for rare morphs is very different and allows breeders to create a niche that will be more insulated from the goings on in the black market.

I think the future for reptiles lies in the unusual morphs that will continue to demand high prices. Reptiles are great pets in modern times where the people will not have the space or time to keep dogs, cats and other traditional pets. 

Personally I have little interest in morphs as I derive pleasure from other aspects of reptile keeping, which I'm sure most people on APS can relate to. Lower prices will allow more people like me to simply enjoy keeping reptiles and leave the people who are more profit driven to focus on other sections of the industry.



kupper said:


> couldn't agree more with your post
> 
> Business 101 - Find a niche and stick with it , if you can't find one make one


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## krefft (Dec 13, 2010)

Yes Jason, I'm with you. 
It's obscene that a baby snake should sell for $10,000. 
Good luck to those who were lucky enough to ride that wave but it had to come to an end. I'm sure cheaper prices will attract more people than we loose. 
The past few years we have all just bred as much as we could, and they all got sucked up. Well now we'll just need to be more decerning about what we breed and when we breed it. That can't be a bad thing.


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## hornet (Dec 13, 2010)

krefft said:


> I'm sure cheaper prices will attract more people than we loose


 
which then gives us more people breeding these cheap animals and adding to our already over saturated market


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## Laghairt (Dec 13, 2010)

I don't think there is anything wrong with high prices for reptiles, if people are willing to pay $10,000 for a snake then good luck to them. "High end" specimens are important to the hobby as it attracts people who would not be interested otherwise. More people in the hobby is not a bad thing.


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## krefft (Dec 13, 2010)

Maybe, but the past 5 people I have sold or given snakes to have absolutely no interest in breeding them. They want a pet snake, nothing more.


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## chase77 (Dec 13, 2010)

Being a noob I thinks it great that in a couple of years I'll be able to own a GTP. If i had of got into herps 10 years ago there would have been no way i would ever had forked out $10000+ for any animal. And surely the more folk like myself that can own such a stunning snake can only promote the hobby


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## Laghairt (Dec 13, 2010)

Totally agree chase, more keepers will support more suppliers of herp products and that will be better for the hobby as a whole. 

There will be albino GTPs available on the Australian market in the next few years and those will be the new "must have" pythons; then the whole cycle will start all over again until something more fashionable turns up.


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## PythonRob (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks Michael,
Great topic and could be lots of discussion. I have gone the full circle for over 25 yrs from 2 Coastal Carpets up to 50 pythons and now back down to only a few.

I like to think of myself as honest and I have met lots of reptile breeders as honest and not so honest. There are lots of people who think quick bucks can be made with little and little regard to the reptiles and after many years now I hope DECC (in NSW) decide to make some changes (I would be willing to help consult to them if they wish). 

Either this is to be a hobby or a business. I have travelled the world and seen reptiles/exhibits/shows held in many countries and we are years behind them. 

I would be happy to volunteer to be part of a consultative committee to work with DECC in establishing a standard for private/amateur keeping and business/professional keeping to help with the industry and look at uniform standards accross the states of Australia.

It is time for keepers to become responsible and contact the relevant authorities before they impose new rules upon us which may put us back in the dark ages again.

If the Administrators wish to contact me then happy to discuss.

PS: Michael, I like your reptiles and will likely contact you in future for a pair of GTP. Dont know you yet but they look great and worth the money for good quality reptiles. Cheers, Rob


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## mrs_davo (Dec 13, 2010)

This is just like the bird market took off during the 80's & 90's with everyone breeding birds & mutation types & selling them for plenty. Now that market has come back to the field. There is still plenty of pet & breeding birds sold today, but the breeders do not expect a high price & do it because they like the hobby. If it makes enough for them to buy their seed & trade future breeders they are doing OK.

Not too long ago (about 4to5years I think) Reptiles Australia Mag published a finding on the growing herp industry/hobby & from this finding it was growing at an enourmous rate. At this stage there was still entrepeners in the industry selling reptiles for extremely high prices. Now extremely high prices only stay there while there is a demand for them.
Now that the demand has been filled for the high price snakes, prices will drop of course due to the fact that there is more people out there now breeding all these highly sought after snakes.
Some people have made much money from this industry in recent times. It will not allways be cherry red roses.
The reptile industry/hobby will keep going as it has been started now. Maybe the high price snakes will not allways be there. Only 6 years ago you would have to pay $9000 for a baby GTP now you can get for $1500 & from good stock I believe.

I for one hope that the EXPOS don't faulter because that is where we will grow & teach people about our hobby.

CHEERS 
Ian


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## mrs_davo (Dec 13, 2010)

With saying what I have said, How can you go past giving people like S.Stone & P.Krause accalades for what they have given to the industry. There are people out there that do give a rats **** to keep us herping. & witout this type people the industry would not be the same. & you too Michael.
Cheers 
Ian


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

I think we need to stop referring to the hobby and the industry as one and the same. The reptile industry is driven by the hobbyist.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Dec 13, 2010)

I think more accurate stats as to the welfare of our hobby / industry is the number of people getting into it. I guess the best representation of that would be the number of licence applications..In my opinion the reason prices have plummeted is all of the above but also that the whole world is in recession, especially usa. It would be interesting to see the stats for licence applications, if anyone knows? I think the hobby will bounce back once the economy takes an upturn. Probably not to where it was with the huge prices but something reasonable...


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## deebo (Dec 13, 2010)

I guess it all depends who you speak to - im sure some people are still selling a lot of animals and making good $$s from it, while im sure others are struggling to move animals and making no money. 

Michael - can i ask why you dropped the price of your animals so much this season? Unless you had serious problems moving your animals last season I cant see why you would do it. I know I have no say in what price you put on your animals but dont understand the massive drop in one year.


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## guzzo (Dec 13, 2010)

I saw Darwins in the NT advertised for $50 each.
I own 2 pair of Darwins. One Albino and one Standard. 
If I had to choose only one snake to keep I would without question choose my standard Darwin male.
I don’t care what people say the value of my snakes are or should be. 
I have the luxury of not having to sell or breed snakes to make a living or keep my interest in the hobby.
If snakes were worth no money and could only be swapped or traded I would still love the hobby as much as I do now.
I suppose a test as to if people are truly interested in the hobby and not just the money is to ask - if snakes were worth nothing would you still be as passionate about keeping them as you are now?
I keep my snakes because I love keeping them…I am not worried about the market or what they should be worth or the bloke next door is selling them for.
I think to say the hobby is going downhill because some aren’t getting the money they think they should be getting makes me question what the most important thing in this hobby is.
I can only speak for myself and say I keep my snakes for the love of the hobby not money.
But that’s just my opinion………….


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## mrs_davo (Dec 13, 2010)

steve1 said:


> I think we need to stop referring to the hobby and the industry as one and the same. The reptile industry is driven by the hobbyist.



I cannot understand what you meah by this.
Without the hobbyist or backyard breeders as some call them there would not be an industry, IE- cages, ligthts,food etc.

This in itself creates an industry underneath an industry/hobby.


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## waruikazi (Dec 13, 2010)

I think the over supply of reptiles at the moment hasn't just been about people wanting to make money. Over the years that i have been part of our hobby i have seen what i would almost call an arrogance (not quite, maybe a hiatus) amongst most keepers. It somehow seems to be that if you haven't bred your animals then you aren't an accomplished keeper. It was almost like breeding graduated you from noob to accomplished status. Which simply isn't the case.

My interest in the keeping side of our hobby has definately wained, i have given away most of what i have kept mainly for work commitment reasons but also because i don't find them that interesting anymore. My passion for feild herping in my area and the ecology, biology and evolution of my local species has grown exponentially. Now that i get out into the bush and watch these animals in the wild i don't feel like i need to keep them in boxes for my own selfish purposes.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

mrs_davo said:


> I cannot understand what you meah by this.
> Without the hobbyist or backyard breeders as some call them there would not be an industry, IE- cages, ligthts,food etc.
> 
> This in itself creates an industry underneath an industry/hobby.



The hobby has the ability to thrive whether the industry is stable or not. The title of the thread is " Is the hobby on a downward spiral? The answer no. Is the industry in a downward spiral? Well, I don't know, I'm a hobbyist.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 13, 2010)

waruikazi
I know exactly where you are coming from. These days my enjoyment is seeing them in the wild even if I have seen most species hundres of times over.
Getting back on topic, I have seen no sign in W.A of the hobby in a downward spiral. But realistically it isn't likely here anyway considering the legalised hobby is relatively new.


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## da_donkey (Dec 13, 2010)

Especially since i moved from NSW to WA, so much more rewarding to join the local rescue team and be surprised with all sorts of wild snakes.....without any of the WA BS that goes with the turf.

donks


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 13, 2010)

Agreed I spend much more time in the bush learning and enjoying than I do with my captives, though I still have a lot to learn from them also. 

What area are you relocating Donks?


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## Waterrat (Dec 13, 2010)

David Evans said:


> Michael - can i ask why you dropped the price of your animals so much this season? Unless you had serious problems moving your animals last season I cant see why you would do it. I know I have no say in what price you put on your animals but dont understand the massive drop in one year.



David, price is no longer the issue. Some joker on here challenged me by saying: "why don't you sell your greens for five hundred bucks?" The answer is simple - it wouldn't make a smidgen of difference. I wouldn't sell any more for $500.- than I sell for $1500.- That's the trues. Many people are of the opinion that the lowest price is the benchmark .... I always thought that quality sets the benchmark but I was wrong. Not in this game.


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## waruikazi (Dec 13, 2010)

That too, i've also started a rescue service where i live now.



da_donkey said:


> Especially since i moved from NSW to WA, so much more rewarding to join the local rescue team and be surprised with all sorts of wild snakes.....without any of the WA BS that goes with the turf.
> 
> donks


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## mrs_davo (Dec 13, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I think the over supply of reptiles at the moment hasn't just been about people wanting to make money. Over the years that i have been part of our hobby i have seen what i would almost call an arrogance (not quite, maybe a hiatus) amongst most keepers. It somehow seems to be that if you haven't bred your animals then you aren't an accomplished keeper. It was almost like breeding graduated you from noob to accomplished status. Which simply isn't the case.
> 
> My interest in the keeping side of our hobby has definately wained, i have given away most of what i have kept mainly for work commitment reasons but also because i don't find them that interesting anymore. My passion for feild herping in my area and the ecology, biology and evolution of my local species has grown exponentially. Now that i get out into the bush and watch these animals in the wild i don't feel like i need to keep them in boxes for my own selfish purposes.



This is why the hobby will survive, just because people don't find them interesting any more.
So here is one person that has gone off the list, is that right Wazza. There is many people to take your place as a pet keeper.
Thats why EXPOS are important, to keep the wrong people from buying them & turning them into a colectable item.
Mate I guess you go to university, is that right.


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## da_donkey (Dec 13, 2010)

steve1 said:


> What area are you relocating Donks?


 
Broometown :lol:


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## waruikazi (Dec 13, 2010)

mrs_davo said:


> This is why the hobby will survive, just because people don't find them interesting any more.
> So here is one person that has gone off the list, is that right Wazza. There is many people to take your place as a pet keeper.
> Thats why EXPOS are important, to keep the wrong people from buying them & turning them into a colectable item.
> Mate I guess you go to university, is that right.


 
I can't help but feel there may be some hostility in your post. I hope that isn't the case. I certaintly don't see myself as the 'wrong people.'

I do still keep some animals, but they are the species that i find particularly interesting, i also only keep single animals and have no desire to breed... except for one species that i am still chasing lol. I also feel that i need to keep permit current (which can only be done by keeping reptiles) so that if i do decide i want to keep a certain animal i can. So no, i am not off the list but i do feel like i am more of a specialised keeper (although i'm not special lol). 

I'm also cringing at the thought of calling live animals 'collectable items,' i don't see them this way. 

And no i'm not a uni student???


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## lizardsNturtles (Dec 14, 2010)

lol im not putting in any useful infomation but there are people like me who would like to buy but trying to find the right one comes troubling as there are tons on the market and when you contact a seller your still wondering if you should get it or not and it becomes too late and they are normally all sold out...


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## D3pro (Dec 14, 2010)

I would like to know that my hobby pays for itself, but if not, then it will still be my hobby. Don't see people in the fish industry complaining, nor the bird industry. Many people that buy birds have no intention to breed.
Reptiles is still a fairly new animal to be considered as a "pet". Give it time.


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## moose (Dec 14, 2010)

Price Dropping in any industry is a common thing all related to supply and demand -and in this case Supply is out weighing the demand.

If Breeders/Keepers what ever really want to make a difference to the Hobby then why not start recruiting locally , this may sound stupid but it works for me. Other than a couple of animals i have been able to move most of my animals locally, And i am in no big city i can assure You.

my 2c
Moose


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 14, 2010)

Interesting thread Michael - been off doing other things the past few days, so I've just had a chance to look through this one. The last 10-15 years has seen reptiles become commodities rather than the unique pets of the curious few who had the passion. I, too, am refining my keeping activities, after coming to NSW following a lifetime in WA, in 2005. I was like a kid in a toyshop for a while here, but now I am narrowing down my interests to those species which interest me, and this means fewer animals, but maybe more technical challenges in their management. The commercial value of the species I'm intereted in doesn't matter a jot to me (despite some recent smarmy comments to the contrary by my detractors) - I have been passionate about GTPs all my life, and never tire of looking at them and working with them, and for me, Boyd's Dragons remain one of the most subtly beautiful species of lizard I have ever seen. That they have dropped hugely in price in the past couple of years is of no consequence to me at all.

People are into reptile keeping for a whole range of reasons. I couldn't begin to apportion numbers of any particular interst group (financially motivated, simple passion, etc) but I think we all have something to contribute to the activity, call it hobby, industry or whatever you like. I feel very happy that I'm definitely not a morph man - albinos, RPMs, or whatever is 'flavour of the month' - couldn't be of less interest to me. (I could say that some of the GTP morphs bred by top breeders in the US are pretty spectacular, and I wouldn't be euthanasing a blue & black GTP with red eyes if it turned up in a clutch!). I paid top dollar for the GTPs I have, but it's not of the slightest concern to me that the prices generally have dropped, because I'm not considering selling them.

I don't think anyone can predict, with any accuracy, where the reptile keeping fraternity will be in the next 10 years... The biggest concern I have is the way in which change is managed - at the keeper level, and the bureaucratic level. The latter is a wild card about which we know very little, but I suspect that, like the US and elsewhere, keepers will be targeted by a more insistent and intrusive bureaucracy which will force changes upon us unless we insist on participating in change at that level. Some are worse than others, but the bureucracies in all jurisdictions are marked by their secrecy, and their attitudes that reptile keepers pose a significant threat to the national conservation effort. 

Thoughtful and savvy keepers can do much to ensure that these attitudes change over time.

Jamie.


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## Redtailed (Dec 14, 2010)

1stima said:


> this is a passion, Not a hobby, and the people that feel the same way about this passion will stick through it thick and thin.. 90% of us are here due to a Sheer Love for these animals and their Protection.. If WE want this "Hobby" to last, we can make it last..


I Agree people will most certintly make it last


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 14, 2010)

Redtailed said:


> I Agree people will most certintly make it last



"The hills are alive... with the sound of music..." Let's all get out there and share the lerve... 

J


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## Waterrat (Dec 14, 2010)

I noticed that someone pick up on this topic on other forum. Moo and TomB made smart comments, as one would expect. It would be nice to drop the nastiness - the festive season is nearing.


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## Scleropages (Dec 14, 2010)

Well for me the hobby is only just starting.. defiantly not on a downward spiral... and getting quite awesome... Besides I have only been keeping snakes in OZ for the last 10 years.... and Micheal.. if you where selling your greens for $500 each I would buy 3 next week ( after I paid the rent rent) 

Fun times ahead.. the next 10 - 15 years should be awesome!


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## impulse reptiles (Dec 14, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> Not all aspects of the hobby are experiencing a downward trend. You might be experiencing that with greens but in the mean time the morph market is booming. Food producers are also laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe you should breed rats instead of greens Michael?


 
my thoughts exactly....i don't think the rats would handle the heat up there , you could use fans but that would cost to much then that ''hobby'' would be in a downward spiral.


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## fishead (Dec 14, 2010)

Hey guys, I just think the breeding and selling side of the hobby is evolving or "morphing" haha. There's a lot of factors involved of course. The global financial thing, supply and demand etc.
The IN things and their asking prices will come and go. Something new comes along for us to drool over and strive towards. 
If you love and are content with the critters that you have then all is good in the hobby for you, no downward spiral to worry about there. 
And if the breed, buy and sell thing is what you are into - which I think there is nothing wrong with, most of us fund our habit that way - then you have to move with the times and get in on the new thing. This in turn keeps the ball rolling for other breeders and the cycle / evolution of the hobby goes on. 
Two of the species that bred for me this season are all sold before they hatch so it's not all doom and gloom.
That's my view on things.


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## Waterrat (Dec 14, 2010)

Oh gosh, you're such smart man fusion, why didn't I think of the fans? You must have one switched on full blast right above your head to come up with such brilliant thought. You inspire me!


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## mattmc (Dec 15, 2010)

anouc said:


> Totally agree chase, more keepers will support more suppliers of herp products and that will be better for the hobby as a whole.
> 
> There will be albino GTPs available on the Australian market in the next few years and those will be the new "must have" pythons; then the whole cycle will start all over again until something more fashionable turns up.




then what the [deleted] is the point of a gtp being a gtp if it is white...? shall we change its name? to wtp. white trash python. honestly, why does man have to insist on genetically persueing the 'best'. if its one thing ive noticed, the reptile industry is equivelant to the nazi industry. when will people realise that the animals out there, from the wild, have evolved (or have been created by a being of unimaginable power) (whichever tickles your fancy) to be who and what they are. these lounge chair keepers are the problem, modifying and targeting a supreme genetic reptile which lures in young enthusiasts which arent cut out to keep reptiles. 

once upon a time, i had some reptiles. bearded dragons. and i must say, they were interesting, they had character, they recognised you, and as far as im concerned listened to you and seemed intent with what was going on in the small world they lived in. (linking this to another thread on the run at the moment about axanthic bhps or w/e). people, if your knew to the reptile industry, go out and get yourself a bearded dragon, not a white trash python, because what you will get is a bearded dragon, something that has character. and yeh, it may not be the most flashy looking thing on earth, definately not to hitlers standards, but you will be able to appreciate what earth has spat out in her life time. and when you get bored of the bearded dragon, you have come one step closer to realising, "why the hell am i keeping reptiles, when i live in australia, the land of reptiles? i could be outside seeing so much more, admiring nature and the interactions of every single thing out there. and now ive also noticed that there is also much much more to nature than wild bearded dragons. there is a whole world to explore of flaura and fauna, and when i explore this amazing country, i will take only photos and leave only footprints"

which leads me onto my second rant, dont go out back and look at the real thing, because when i go, i want it to be pristene and untouched by people ahha!

which leads me to say, 53 minutes untill my hsc mark is released. 

GOOD MORNING ALL!


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## Colin (Dec 15, 2010)

mattmc said:


> then what the [deleted] is the point of a gtp being a gtp if it is white...? shall we change its name? to wtp. white trash python.



I didnt realise albino green tree pythons were white?


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## charri37 (Dec 15, 2010)

i agree completely CamdeJong, i have been trying to sell a coastal for a few months now with no luck. it seems like the interest in them is just not there any more (however i would never leave it with the RSPCA or dump it in the wild lol!)


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## junglepython2 (Dec 15, 2010)

Albino means no melanin, in mammals there isn't any other pigments so you get white. However reptiles have other pigments so albino's are often not white.


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## mattmc (Dec 15, 2010)

still not much difference between white and white with a "ruddy or yellow hue". aesthetically pleasing, for some? yes. for me? no. genetic mistake? remains a yes.


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## Kurto (Dec 15, 2010)

Is this thread on a downward spiral?


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## Laghairt (Dec 15, 2010)

I think that's the one thing we can all agree on Kurto.


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## Red-Ink (Dec 15, 2010)

Kurto said:


> Is this thread on a downward spiral?


 
:lol::lol:


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2010)

Close it mods, no point in continuing.

In response to some comments by my detractors (on other site) I would like to make it absolutely clear that my opening post was not a complaint, I wasn't winging or drawing attention to myself or to my dealings with snakes. I thought it was an interesting and timely topic to discuss now that the hatching season is in full swing. Thanks to those who took it that way and contributed with relevant and meaningful comments.


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## ozziepythons (Dec 15, 2010)

No doubt the hobby of reptile keeping will change and change again, as time marches on. I think there will be a distinction between keepers who are all about morphs and those who breed pedigree reptiles as it progresses. What seems to irk some of the more experienced herpers is that 20 years ago those in the hobby side of things were genuine about their interest in herpetology in general, and nowdays there has been an influx of new keepers who are more about morphs, husbandry and are less about the natural history of their reptiles. There seems to be more online chatter about the prices of reptiles rather than aspects of ecology, conservation or taxonomy. The new generation of field herpetologists may well avoid anything to do with the hobby of reptile keeping if it lacks integrity.


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## FAY (Dec 15, 2010)

3 things can be guaranteed in life.

Death, Taxes and Change.

Change can be a good thing...all depends on how you handle it.


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## ezekiel86 (Dec 15, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> It's a catch 22. We are desperately trying to recruit new herpers trough expos, pet shops, forums, etc, because we believe the growth will support the hobby. These new recruits will buy X number of animals, breed them in a year or two and then try to sell XXXXXXX number of animals. Is this good or bad for the hobby? Just a thought.



Good point ...


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## Radar (Dec 15, 2010)

I guess it depends what people class as good or bad for the hobby....
Everyone's views of what the hobby needs to be 'good' are totally different. Some people think it needs new herpers to spread the word, some people think it's better left the the knowledgeable old timers with the experience. Some think people need to be able to make a business and support a family from it, some want it to pay for itself, and others are happy to not make any money from it and give away excess stock. Some think it needs a conservation value whereas others think the hobby should be totally removed from any conservation efforts.... I guess people need to decide whether they are in it for the 'hobby' or the 'industry'. 

On the note of prices. Why does every animal have to be worth a mint for the hobby to be in good shape? In all reality, why should a hatchling snake, a native species that is commonly available, cost 10K? In this hobby, people spend very large sums of money on animals without batting an eye. My ute cost 10K when I bought it almost new 6 years ago. That car has literally taken me to find more species of reptiles in more area's of Australia then I even new existed. A trip to the cape to see gtp's in the wild never cost me any more than $800, and I've seen plenty more than just a couple of greens. Now-days, Im more about a holistic approach to reptiles then I used to be. I want to see them in the wild, watch their natural behaviors and appreciate them as a pinnacle of what nature has come up with over millions of years. That's not to say I don't keep, currently the only 2 rooms in the house not floor to ceiling with reptiles (snakes, dragons, geckos, monitors, skinks) are the toilet and the bathroom. 

If there were GTP's available for $500 I'd buy one tonight. I've read 'The more complete chondro' front to back and have plenty of experience with touchy snakes. Patience is a virtue. Just because people have the money to spend on expensive snakes doesn't mean they aren't a 'fad' herper, and just because people refuse to pay thousands for a snake doesn't mean they aren't serious. Admittedly, low prices and free animals will encourage spur of the moment purchases and kids that are in it for the 'cool' factor, but they will also make the hobby more accessible to those who aren't necessarily well off, but that have the passion and interest that could lead them into a life of adventure. 

I've given away my fare share of animals, and every single one of them is loved and cared for by it's owner. I know this because I don't give animals away to anyone, only to people who are truly interested. Spend a while talking to the prospective new owners of your animal....


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## Laghairt (Dec 15, 2010)

Nice post rednut! BTW, if you want to give me any of your levis levis hatchlings I promise to love them


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## Radar (Dec 15, 2010)

Pm sent.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Dec 15, 2010)

You have just got to love the hobby anyway.


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## Poggle (Dec 17, 2010)

Michael, 
You are good at bringing up these sort of topics 

I do agree with you mate, there may be the impression of a changing herp world. I selective breed like most, and most of what i breed ( to a limit ) i am able to keep if need be.

But there has been a huge amount of flooding on the market. Although i am still struggling to find both skinks and geckos available close to home. I have offered to trade some of my best snakes and still nothing, so this is a worry to me with the market.

I am keen to see how it pans out. Things often spiral out of control before correcting them selves. Never give up on your greens mate, you have some of the nicest i have seen. Once i was known for my blonde macs, now everyone has them, once i was known for my monitors, now everyone breeds them too. So i just sit in my own lil corner and do my own thing. 

I still believe there are a lot of passionate people out there and i will always offer my advice where i can and will even give herps to the "RIGHT" deserving people to see the happiness on their face.

In the mean time, i love my herps, i'll always have them, and like you michael i also think it iwll be very interesting.

Cheers,

Michael


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## Waterrat (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks Michael,
I am doing just that - getting as much as I can (in way of knowledge and experience) out of my monotypic collection and I am enjoying it. As the market is shrinking, I have to change my plans and concentrate on smaller, selective projects because unlike you, I can't keep everything my snakes produce and there is no point in continuing a "large production" if I can call it that. I am not upset about it, certainly not winging, as some implied, the only thing I am unhappy about is that I won't be able to keep large numbers of juveniles as I was planning to do. To investigate e.g. microhabitat preferences of yellow juveniles, which I was hoping to get my teeth into this year requires large sample size and replications. What would I then do with 40 or 50 yearlings? Before someone puts forward a smart advice like "give them away" or sell them for $500.- each, I am not here to ruin the market any further for other people. 
Scaling down on the natives is the plan and I will keep myself busy with my non-natives for the next two or three years. I believe in "natural cycles", things will change, that's for sure.
On the money side of it, looking at the prospect of the proposed "minimum cage sizes" in NSW, I might start selectively breed for miniature GTPs, like bonsai, you know? LOL


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## kupper (Dec 17, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Thanks Michael,
> I am doing just that - getting as much as I can (in way of knowledge and experience) out of my monotypic collection and I am enjoying it. As the market is shrinking, I have to change my plans and concentrate on smaller, selective projects because unlike you, I can't keep everything my snakes produce and there is no point in continuing a "large production" if I can call it that. I am not upset about it, certainly not winging, as some implied, the only thing I am unhappy about is that I won't be able to keep large numbers of juveniles as I was planning to do. To investigate e.g. microhabitat preferences of yellow juveniles, which I was hoping to get my teeth into this year requires large sample size and replications. What would I then do with 40 or 50 yearlings? Before someone puts forward a smart advice like "give them away" or sell them for $500.- each, I am not here to ruin the market any further for other people.
> Scaling down on the natives is the plan and I will keep myself busy with my non-natives for the next two or three years. I believe in "natural cycles", things will change, that's for sure.
> On the money side of it, looking at the prospect of the proposed "minimum cage sizes" in NSW, I might start selectively breed for miniature GTPs, like bonsai, you know? LOL


 
:lol: well they are green michael , new exciting times ahead for you I gather ?

how does one trim the roots of a python ?


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## hissnbits (Dec 17, 2010)

The market place is certainly evolving!! It is certainly harder when the market is "flooded" with available animals, and if course the downward pricing. Just wondering on some positives. For one I think that husbandry, care and knowledge has been improving and hence why so many people are breeding. There is much greater choice for buyers, yes of course there is a price incentive, but greater choice naturally makes it a buyers market. Having both choice and greater affordability (in reality means greater variation in quality and price) should be seen as way of growing the hobby. The issue I feel is that breeding rate has exceeded hobby growth rate. So grow the hobby rate!! It would be interesting to know what percentage of population own reptiles in various markets to get a feel for how Australia fits.


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## scratchy (Dec 17, 2010)

JasonL said:


> I think it's great that the money is fading out of the hobby, whilst it is great to make some cash from your herps, I'd still prefer to see people keep herps for the love of the animal, not because what it will make them next season....



Totally agree with you. I have been keeping Herps since the early 90's. Never been about the money and still keep some very c ommon species. The last few season I have only been breeding to satify my needs otherwise wont even bother.


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## sarah_m (Dec 17, 2010)

I would like to see the hobby follow the european market, as well as the US morph market.
I remember seeing some of Brian Fry's photo's at a herp meeting, of the ways retiles are kept in the Netherlands (i think), and it is awsome! Habitats are like a chunk of the animals natural habitat, down to the finest possible detail, including natural light cycles and humidity, weather patterns, etc. They focus on quality rather than quantinty.

I know that this is not necessarily something everyone can practically or financially do, even with my own animals I don't feel experienced enough to undertake such an endeavour at this stage.

But I feel it is perhaps a more positive direction for new herpers (and old) to head in, than just random breeding, especially considering the current flood of common species on the market right now. It's a direction that would require alot of research and understanding of the species in it's wild state, which might encourage some "online experts" to get out there and experience nature, rather than worrying about breeding a species that's got stripes, spots or is purple.

I feel too, that this form of keeping might be more rewarding in the long term than just collecting as many as possible and keeping them in unnatural, stark boxes.

This sort of keeping would probably also stimulate the reptile product industry, which can only be positive for us and out herps.

I think there is space for both approaches within the herp hobby.


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## mattmc (Dec 18, 2010)

sarah_m said:


> I would like to see the hobby follow the european market, as well as the US morph market.
> I remember seeing some of Brian Fry's photo's at a herp meeting, of the ways retiles are kept in the Netherlands (i think), and it is awsome! Habitats are like a chunk of the animals natural habitat, down to the finest possible detail, including natural light cycles and humidity, weather patterns, etc. They focus on quality rather than quantinty.
> 
> I know that this is not necessarily something everyone can practically or financially do, even with my own animals I don't feel experienced enough to undertake such an endeavour at this stage.
> ...



some kind of regulation to enforce such an approach in keeping animals in this way would stop or slow down people breeding annually for cash on the side reasons, and i agree, people would be able to appreciate the reality of the animal.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Dec 18, 2010)

Have alook at some of the new threads today & you will see that there is still newcommers to our hobby that need suport.

The hobby/industry may be dying for the absolute peer pinacle of snakes. This was allways going to happen.
Why Bitch about it there is nothing that you can do, accept for support & promote the hobby/industry as you may.

I for one am glad that the hoby/industry has been allowed to show & advance our wares through the Expos.
I dare not say anymore tonight as have been up since 4:30 am & a big day.


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## FAY (Dec 18, 2010)

This is why I think the Expo at the Sydney Royal will be fantastic. OK a lot of us herp people would probably not be interested as there are no sales etc but it takes the hobby out to the greater community. Especially a lot of country folk. A person from Bourke would come to the show to show their produce and have a look at the reptiles as well but no way in the world would they just come down to go to the Castle Hill Expo. This is what the hobby needs now.......to get a lot of new people into the hobby..................


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 18, 2010)

I think if your heart and desire is in your collection ????
Then it does not matter if prices go up or down .
You will always keep your collection as long as you have the passion to care for your animals.
cheers
Roger


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2010)

The prices are now very low and that's what everybody wanted. As a result, most keepers have all the species and numbers they ever wanted and aren't acquiring any more or at least not as much as in the past 4-5 years, hence the plateau the hobby is experiencing now. The trading i.e. selling and buying kept the industry on the move. As buying and selling is in recession, the hobby is starting to have a whole new meaning.

I didn't say in my opening post the the hobby IS on a downward spiral, I put it up as a question for debate.


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## Poggle (Dec 18, 2010)

kupper said:


> how does one trim the roots of a python ?



By restricting the size of ones cage it limits it's ability to form correctly and there for grow. This is the quickest way of doing this. Some times though with some not so good side affects on the animals, as restricted joint growth can form other abnormal growths on the animal. The slower procedure for doing this is selective breeding. Keep the runtiest smallest of your hatchlings using them to breed with and keeping the smallest again and so on. There for a very timely procdure but more efficient at "breeding mini herps"

Cheers


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## wokka (Dec 18, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> On the money side of it, looking at the prospect of the proposed "minimum cage sizes" in NSW, I might start selectively breed for miniature GTPs, like bonsai, you know? LOL


 The trouble with the draft NSW cage sizes is that a minature GTP will require the same size cage as a full sized GTP. Cage sizes are related to the species and age of the snake rather than the size of the snake.


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2010)

Wokka, I thought for a minute you were worried that you may have to start breeding miniature mice and arts. LOL


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## pythons73 (Dec 18, 2010)

Years ago ALOT of people had dreams of owning a particular snake,and breed the more common species so to speak so they can afford the more higher end snake(albino-GTP) With the old timers(so to speak) the only way to find out any info was a phone call,now we have all the technolodge in the world to help with any aspects of breeding-keeping reptiles.What i hate, ALOT of people ask Questions, what species-whats the easiest snake to breed without having much knowledge for the basics in reptile keeping..IT DOESNT give you a higher respect in the herp community just because you have breed snakes...Ive seen so many nice snakes that years ago wouldve been snapped up that day,even with the low price on them,now ALOT are not being sold..I do hope more people get in the hobby,and that EVERYMAN and his dog can just appreciate there reptiles instead of breeding them EVERY year...I hope that within a few years were not wondering what the hell happened...


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## AllThingsReptile (Dec 18, 2010)

i dunno about you guys, but i keep herps coz i love them and to me, lower prices mean i can get herps based on how much i like them not based on the price, yes it will make money making almost impossible, but people will still breed
personally i would breed to give my animals a chance at breeding, and to explore different aspects of the hobby, to observe the behavioural changes in the animal once allowed to mate etc etc.....lol


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## hornet (Dec 18, 2010)

lizardboii said:


> i dunno about you guys, but i keep herps coz i love them and to me, lower prices mean i can get herps based on how much i like them not based on the price, yes it will make money making almost impossible, but people will still breed
> personally i would breed to give my animals a chance at breeding, and to explore different aspects of the hobby, to observe the behavioural changes in the animal once allowed to mate etc etc.....lol


 
thats great and all for us keepers who cant afford to fork out thousands but it also allows any tom dick and harry to buy a cheap pair and have a crack at breeding which then means there are snakes that cant be sold. I'm pretty sure someone who buys a cheap pair to try and breed and makes money rather then for the love of the animals is going to properly care for 10-20 snakes he/she cant sell. With the positives comes many negatives


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## deebo (Dec 18, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> David, price is no longer the issue. Some joker on here challenged me by saying: "why don't you sell your greens for five hundred bucks?" The answer is simple - it wouldn't make a smidgen of difference. I wouldn't sell any more for $500.- than I sell for $1500.- That's the trues. Many people are of the opinion that the lowest price is the benchmark .... I always thought that quality sets the benchmark but I was wrong. Not in this game.


 
So are you saying that you couldnt sell the animals you produced at your previous prices? Not having a go but considering ppl bought them last year and now they are about half price it might leave a bad taste in their mouth? I saw someone one here advertising RPMs at $3000-$3500 and with in a day so, after they have sold some, they are already advertised at $2600. 

But i do understand they are your animals and you can do what you want....

Cheers,
Dave


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## deebo (Dec 18, 2010)

i guess what im really asking is that if price makes no differene why cut it in half?


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## Varanus1 (Dec 18, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> People like you are the demise of this hobby. I am not sorry if I offended you - I spoke my mind.


 
Perhaps just a little bit rough? He is just a youngster afterall, and still has a lot to learn. Although I agree that indiscriminate breeding does no favours for the hobby, I doubt turning away young and budding herpers will either.

I guess this is something I like about keeping elapids - the prices are fairly constant, the "fads" are shortlived (due to a limited number of buyers), and those keeping the animals are typically only in it for the animals - if it was for any other reason, they wouldn't last long


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## longqi (Dec 18, 2010)

If you are playing with slitherers for money Ok Now is not a good time

But if you are in it for education or just fun this is a great time to be playing


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## bigi (Dec 18, 2010)

Very few people or companies are in the industry for profit reasons. Most of which sell mainly products not animals. I wish them luck as the to be in an industry you must make a profit to survive, and most have probably been so for 20 years or so and i believe with so much experience they should make a profit as their profession.

I for one, as many love to keep my little critters, and get alot of enjoyment from them. Thats it for me. Too many people here must believe that for enjoyment you must pass on an animal at a profit, or see that if it breeds i need to recoup thier outlay. Forget it, it will not happen for most. Enjoy the animals and the keeping of them.

I truly hope that if people continue to over breed for hobby demands, that an organisation is started to re-establish the animals in areas that they have been wiped out of in the wild. That would be a an awasome outcome.


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2010)

David Evans said:


> So are you saying that you couldnt sell the animals you produced at your previous prices? Not having a go but considering ppl bought them last year and now they are about half price it might leave a bad taste in their mouth? I saw someone one here advertising RPMs at $3000-$3500 and with in a day so, after they have sold some, they are already advertised at $2600.
> 
> But i do understand they are your animals and you can do what you want....
> 
> ...


 
Last year was last year, this year is this year, next year will be different again. Isn't it reality? .... not having a go? Common Dave.


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## bpb02 (Dec 19, 2010)

Next year I was planning on breeding a pair of real blonde spottes and 2 pair of womas but I now have the mind set that there will be 1000'sbof each for sale so I just won't pair them up. It is a pitty because it was going to be my first year of breeding and I would love to learn that side of rep keeping but I can not afford to look after that many young if I can not sell them. So I am one first time breeder who has been put off the thought of breeding due to the current climate of snakes


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## ellis01 (Dec 19, 2010)

Well said mate I agree with you there


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## Wookie (Dec 19, 2010)

hornet said:


> thats great and all for us keepers who cant afford to fork out thousands but it also allows any tom dick and harry to buy a cheap pair and have a crack at breeding which then means there are snakes that cant be sold. I'm pretty sure someone who buys a cheap pair to try and breed and makes money rather then for the love of the animals is going to properly care for 10-20 snakes he/she cant sell. With the positives comes many negatives


 
But the lower profit margins might deter the hordes of people who buy a pair in an attempt to breed and earn some quick cash. No?


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## Wookie (Dec 19, 2010)

bpb02 said:


> Next year I was planning on breeding a pair of real blonde spottes and 2 pair of womas but I now have the mind set that there will be 1000'sbof each for sale so I just won't pair them up. It is a pitty because it was going to be my first year of breeding and I would love to learn that side of rep keeping but I can not afford to look after that many young if I can not sell them. So I am one first time breeder who has been put off the thought of breeding due to the current climate of snakes


 
Dude, breed one pair?


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## dottyback (Dec 19, 2010)

Water rat, totally applicable to this subject, a thread started 5 months ago!
The hobby is not having a ‘down hill spiral’ but prices of reptiles are!



http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/green-pythons-pricing-advice-139888/


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## Laghairt (Dec 19, 2010)

Funny isn't it dottyback, prices of GTPs are even lower than those reported in that thread. I was offered a GTP hatchling for under $1000 yesterday and that seems to be around the going price at the moment. I knew it would get to this point eventually but wasn't expecting for it to happen so quickly.


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## CodeRed (Dec 19, 2010)

Some GTP hatchies went for $700 each a couple of weeks back from a well known breeder.


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## turtle_alex (Dec 19, 2010)

i think that the hobby is not on a downward spiral, more of a plateau. 10 years earlier and there were only a small number of people keeping reptiles and prices were very expensive, as years went on people would breed and there would be a greater number of reptiles which equals more keepers....the greater the number of reptiles the lower the price and more people obtaining such animals.

i think yes the price drop in reptiles in the last 5yrs would of hurt breeders, and people in the hobby to loose money in there investments, but would help in greater numbers of keepers or future keepers in the hobby.

i think the future of reptile keeping really depends on government laws and $$$ 
for this hobby to go further there has to be more of exciting times ahead, i know myself when i see a significant colour change in an animal, i think wow i would like one of those, and then so the obsession of owning such an animal begins

a hobby to me is doing something that you enjoy and when you start slaping government law and more $$$ on it to me it doesnt stay a hobby, but more of an industry. so i think price drops to a certain extent and new and exciting morphs are a good thing to keep people interested
anyway thats my 2 bob
cya


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## Slateman (Dec 19, 2010)

Why people think that hobby is on spiral downward because reptiles are more affordable. I just wander. There is more people in the hobby now then ewer. We just will see in the future that some big breading stations operating as business will stop operating due profit decrease. Our hobby will be again hobby and not industry.


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## Danish (Dec 19, 2010)

The hobby will never die,there will always be true enthusiast who do it pure
for the love of herps and dont give a [email protected]#$ bout how much money they make or what there herps owe or cost them.
The people in herps to make a millon will die off
and move on to there next money making venture,
good luck to them!!!!!!!!


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## Colin (Dec 19, 2010)

A lot of the comments in the thread seem to be concerned with prices coming down and people not being able to sell their animals. personally I dont think the hobbies in that bad of shape.. theres more people keeping reptiles, more people becoming interested in them and thats a good thing in my opinion. 

I like to breed animals because it interests me, its fun and I enjoy seeing the results, colours, patterns etc. Im always aiming to try to produce better animals than I did the year before.. Its always good to be able to sell some and recoup money spent and offset against expenses etc but if you cant get the same prices as you did a few years ago well thats life.. 

If animals are harder to sell.. breed less numbers of give a few away to friends, good customers or some kids you might know that are starting out to give them a helping hand.. 

Enjoy your animals and the pleasure they bring you..


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## Waterrat (Dec 19, 2010)

Slateman said:


> Why people think that hobby is on spiral downward because reptiles are more affordable. I just wander.



Not because reptiles are more affordable, because too many are being produced and this trend seems to continue. Where are they all going to end up?


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## cockney red (Dec 19, 2010)

No


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## snakescene (Dec 19, 2010)

I breed snakes and rats and cannot keep up with the food demand. Up here in Qld, don't have any trouble moving on hatchlings or rodents.


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## Wild~Touch (Dec 19, 2010)

Colin said:


> A lot of the comments in the thread seem to be concerned with prices coming down and people not being able to sell their animals. personally I dont think the hobbies in that bad of shape.. theres more people keeping reptiles, more people becoming interested in them and thats a good thing in my opinion.
> 
> I like to breed animals because it interests me, its fun and I enjoy seeing the results, colours, patterns etc. Im always aiming to try to produce better animals than I did the year before.. Its always good to be able to sell some and recoup money spent and offset against expenses etc but if you cant get the same prices as you did a few years ago well thats life..
> 
> ...


 

Well said & my thoughts also
Cheers
Sandee


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## Slateman (Dec 19, 2010)

Simple.
Animals will be sold for cheaper price and when that comes to point that breading for business will be not profitable, big guys will stop and hobby will be again hobby. Not industry.


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## chase77 (Dec 19, 2010)

i've only just got into herps, and have only 1 stimson (with another couple of snakes and lizards to come). I have however 'helped' the industry cause i have spent hundreds on books, food, hygene products, heat matts, lights, thermostats etc etc. I would not have got into snakes had the prices of reptiles not been so resonable/cheap. More people will come to the hobby if we promote the positives. So back to the topic question. Is the hobby in a downward spiral, probably not, people will still want to own snakes, and even the guys out there who wont breed now will still be hobbyists, cause your not going to give them all up. 

Chase.


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## mattmc (Dec 22, 2010)

The demise of the hobby will not come from the price of the snake and the mass productions of the snake (snake being a general term for reptile in this instance) but however, The ever rising price of neccesities in life:
electricity
water
gas
fuel
food
taxes
oxygen

I for one have not bought that monitor lizard I have been wanting for a while because I cannot afford the electricity required (let alone the food)

Now I'm sure there is a thousand people in the hobby that are rich enough to not even take a second glance at the prices of neccesities, so good for you guys, but 'Tom, Dick and Harry' will slip and slide out when the wake of life overcomes the reality of a hobby. And I'm sure there will be some of you who say that what I just said contradicts my original statement, and yeh, it does, but average Joe will say good day to face reality.


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Dec 22, 2010)

You know I was actually thinking about this particular topic the other day, I blame it on the rising prices of electricity bills, taxes and other expenses - everybody is so busy trying to pay off mortgages already - but they have all these added things getting even more expensive, how are they supposed to afford to continue with the hobby?
Hell, it's up to $1800 a year in energy alone now, and it keeps getting higher! before we know it most people will be homeless and simply having a refridgerator would be considered a high privelage. 
This is just my personal theory. It's sad that the world is shooting itself in the foot like this, maybe one day we'll have some politicians who actually give a crap about the average Australian family.


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## Wild~Touch (Dec 22, 2010)

It's not the hobby spiralling downward, it's the morale of some of the people involved 

Look on the positives and build on that 

Come on Aussie, come on


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 23, 2010)

If people love their hobby that much they will find away to indulge it. If you cant afford everything you want choose a favourite and enjoy keeping it. Electricity to high look for alternative heating. If you still can't afford then maybe volunteer somewhere if that's not possible go bushwalking. People with enough passion in any hobby will find a way to indulge in it and for that reason it will always be alive and well at some level and in someones life even if other individuals are getting out of it what they expected.


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## baxtor (Dec 23, 2010)

Rainbow-Serpent said:


> Hell, it's up to $1800 a year in energy alone now, and it keeps getting higher!


 
I would think it was christmas if $1800 covered my power bill for a whole year.


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## chase77 (Dec 23, 2010)

baxtor said:


> I would think it was christmas if $1800 covered my power bill for a whole year.


 
Wow, I live in sydney with my partner and 4 kids and our electricity/gas bill is under $1600 a year about $400 a 1/4.


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## Waterrat (Dec 23, 2010)

chase77 said:


> Wow, I live in sydney with my partner and 4 kids and our electricity/gas bill is under $1600 a year about $400 a 1/4.


 

Wow, do you burn candles? I pay more than that in the tropics (no heating here).


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## wokka (Dec 23, 2010)

I suppose it depends upon what perameter make a healthy hobby?
Increasing numbers of reptiles in captivity. Pass
Increasing variety of reptiles in captivity. Pass
Increasing number of reptile keepers. Pass
Increasing numbers of members on Reptile forums. Pass
increasing numbers of reptiles bred in captivity.


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## Slateman (Dec 24, 2010)

Number of members and people visiting our site increasing each year. This year we have more than 30% increase.


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## Slateman (Dec 24, 2010)

Rainbow-Serpent said:


> You know I was actually thinking about this particular topic the other day, I blame it on the rising prices of electricity bills, taxes and other expenses - everybody is so busy trying to pay off mortgages already - but they have all these added things getting even more expensive, how are they supposed to afford to continue with the hobby?
> Hell, it's up to $1800 a year in energy alone now, and it keeps getting higher! before we know it most people will be homeless and simply having a refridgerator would be considered a high privelage.
> This is just my personal theory. It's sad that the world is shooting itself in the foot like this, maybe one day we'll have some politicians who actually give a crap about the average Australian family.


 
we have to pay big $ if we want to be green. At the moment we are green as green tree frogs. To fallow green ideology is so romantic and full of greatness, till you find up that necessity of life double the price. Just wait till carbon tax kick in.


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## Slateman (Dec 24, 2010)

chase77 said:


> Wow, I live in sydney with my partner and 4 kids and our electricity/gas bill is under $1600 a year about $400 a 1/4.


I am paying $1950 only per quarter. that is the reason I am reducing number of reptiles right now.


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