# What are Americans doing ?????



## borntobnude (Jun 20, 2013)

It may just be me ,,But Really ????? This boy looks like he has had the life bred out of him not dragon like at all


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## Shotta (Jun 20, 2013)

^ is that a leatherback or italian red leatherback?


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

I am completely against morph breeding. It's a disgusting act. I don't care who gets upset at this opinion.


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## BloodRunsCold (Jun 20, 2013)

the beginning of a chernoble monster aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahgh disgust there arnt even any devil spines left of im ;,,(


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## MesseNoire (Jun 20, 2013)

There are "silk backs" in oz now too......
Not sure if the breeder has had any success with them since though.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

More like sag bags. Poor things.


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I am completely against morph breeding. It's a disgusting act. I don't care who gets upset at this opinion.


What is it about morph breeding that you don't like? And what do you exactly mean by morph breeding?


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> What is it about morph breeding that you don't like?



I'm not an expert on it but from everything I've read and seen it's not something I want to support or ever be apart of. I am against the forced alteration. The inbreeding and diluting. I'm a purist and prefer the original look. These people are turning reptiles into designer items. Disgraceful.


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I'm not an expert on it but from everything I've read and seen it's not something I want to support or ever be apart of. I am against the forced alteration. The inbreeding and diluting. I'm a purist and prefer the original look.


I think with everything there is a good way and a bad way to go about it. I think a bit of inbreeding is ok but think when it gets to the extent that animals suffer that it is going too far.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

Not me. I am totally against it. Call me extreme but turning reptiles into designer items is WRONG.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 20, 2013)

It's an inescapable part of human ownership and future domestication.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> It's an inescapable part of human ownership and future domestication.



So you condone it? Or dislike it but know it is inevitable?


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## Marzzy (Jun 20, 2013)

Microwave bearded dragon


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't have a problem with it in moderation as long as the animals don't suffer. It has produced some really snakes and I believe my pinstripe BHP has come from line breeding.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> So you condone it? Or dislike it but know it is inevitable?



I like some morphs and dislike others, either way as soon as humans breed animals it's bound to occur. Even those who are against morphs are still selecting for traits when they pair there animals up, whether they are doing it consciously or not.


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## Jacknife (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I am completely against morph breeding. It's a disgusting act. I don't care who gets upset at this opinion.



It's been done with *EVERY* type of domesticated animal in existence, if you've ever owned *ANY* kind of other domestic animal the above statement is bigoted to the nth. Just sayin...


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

Badsville said:


> It's been done with *EVERY* type of domesticated animal in existence, if you've ever owned *ANY* kind of other domestic animal the above statement is bigoted to the nth. Just sayin...



Whatever. I'm a bigot then. But for the record I only own healthy, un-abused reptiles.


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## Jacknife (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> Whatever. I'm a bigot then. But for the record I only own healthy, un-abused reptiles.



So by your definition anyone who owns a hypo, albino, caramel, striped or whatever other colour morph is an animal abuser with unhealthy animals?

Think before you type, and be a bit more rational and educated.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

Badsville said:


> So by your definition anyone who owns a hypo, albino, caramel, striped or whatever other colour morph is an animal abuser with unhealthy animals?
> 
> Think before you type, and be a bit more rational and educated.



I've stated my opinion. You may continue to try and demean me for it but I wont change my mind. That Beardy definitely does NOT look healthy. Or even remotely like a Beardy anymore. And it was done in a country where they aren't even native. Obviously albinos occur in nature, that is totally fine but to force drastic changes? Wrong.


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## Tyl3r (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't mind inbreeding, etc. of reptiles but not until it gets out of hand, once or twice but that would be it for me.. The rest would be from different breeders.
That is just my opinion.


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## J-A-X (Jun 20, 2013)

Don't turn a difference of opinion into a public feud or infractions will be issued. . 
Everyone is entitled to an opinion there is no need for name calling


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

Tyl3r said:


> I don't mind inbreeding, etc. of reptiles but not until it gets out of hand, once or twice but that would be it for me.. The rest would be from different breeders.
> That is just my opinion.


I think that the responsible breeders inbreed and then out cross to strengthen the line, well that is how I think they do it anyway.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

When is inbreeding EVER okay? I say never.


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> When is inbreeding EVER okay? I say never.


What is wrong about it exactly?


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## Serpent_Gazeux (Jun 20, 2013)

Inbreeding occurs in nature...


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> What is wrong about it exactly?



I'm done arguing. If I have to explain how inbreeding is bad then I'm in the wrong thread. They are creating weaker animals, diluting the species and making them look completely different to the natural, normal form. How is that NOT bad?


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## Skeptic (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> What is wrong about it exactly?



Yeah... Just look at Joffrey. He seems perfectly fine


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## junglepython2 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I'm done arguing. If I have to explain how inbreeding is bad then I'm in the wrong thread. They are creating weaker animals, diluting the species and making them look completely different to the natural, normal form. How is that NOT bad?


I admire your passion, but how does the captive beardy population in the USA have any impact or relevance to wild beardies in Australia?


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## Jacknife (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I've stated my opinion. You may continue to try and demean me for it but I wont change my mind. That Beardy definitely does NOT look healthy. Or even remotely like a Beardy anymore. And it was done in a country where they aren't even native.



Not trying to demean you, just requesting that you use a bit of intelligence.
That beardie looks to be in perfect health, has good body size and condition, clear eyes and appears to be alert to its surroundings. It simply has a different colour and no spines. 
Have you seen this particular animal in real life? Have you spoken to it's owner? Do you know it's specific lieage or genetics? Have you any specific information to tell you it's an unhealthy animal? No.
So don't throw around accusations at other herpers and breeders that are entirely unfounded based on your own biased opinion.
That is all I ask...

What does being being native to the country have anything to do with it? All other domestic animals are bred outside of their native lands...


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> I admire your passion, but how does the captive beardy population in the USA have any impact or relevance to wild beardies in Australia?



I don't agree with importing and exporting native animals. I must be a hippie freak though. I'm tired of trying to defend myself.


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## Tyl3r (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I think that the responsible breeders inbreed and then out cross to strengthen the line, well that is how I think they do it anyway.



That is exactly what I would do.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I don't agree with importing and exporting native animals. I must be a hippie freak though. I'm tired of trying to defend myself.



There was no need to defend yourself, I only asked a question. I'm against importing and exporting native animals as well.... But what relevance it has to this thread I have no clue.


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## Jacknife (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I don't agree with importing and exporting native animals. I must be a hippie freak though. I'm tired of trying to defend myself.



Most of the US populations of Australian natives were either imported before the 1974 wildlife conservation act or occasionally have been illegaly smuggled over since.
It's the reason the gene pool is smaller and genetic morphs pop up there more often than here...


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## Snowman (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> What is wrong about it exactly?


Agreed. So sick of people thinking reptiles are like mammals. Inbreeding occurs a lot in wild populations and has zero effect. Likewise captive reptiles can be inbred for generations without problems. I really wish some users would read and study more before posting non factual statements.


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## BloodRunsCold (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> What is it about morph breeding that you don't like? And what do you exactly mean by morph breeding?



anything that isn't natural I consider morph's sure there are some wild animal's with these trait's but that's for nature to decide not us. The keeping of Australian fauna is a privilege as is so making these human creation's should be illegal whatever state you live in you can consider reptile keeping a form of conservation but why go as far as changing the species we already have it's against nature plus some people would die for our native animals literally so why don't we put as much effort into conserving what we have rather then making something breathtaking look around the natural beauty is astounding here take a minute to breath it all in and I guarantee you, that you will be at peace...


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> There was no need to defend yourself, I only asked a question. I'm against importing and exporting native animals as well.... But what relevance it has to this thread I have no clue.



Oh Andy asked me what this American owned Beardy had to do with Australia's population of wilds.


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## sd1981 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I'm done arguing. If I have to explain how inbreeding is bad then I'm in the wrong thread. They are creating weaker animals, diluting the species and making them look completely different to the natural, normal form. How is that NOT bad?



I agree with almost everything you've said B_STATS, however,they're potentially creating weaker offspring if they breed weaker pairings, but they're not diluting anything, they're actually concentrating the bloodlines by inbreeding, therefore potentially causing genetic mutations and defects to rise to the top, can look nice but can also have major health issues, which is why I feel that only the breeders with more understanding of genetics should be breeding animals.... I don't agree with it when It compromises the health and well being of the animals but unfortunately, captive bred animals will only breed with what they're given. I wouldn't breed with a relative of mine, I'm also not being kept in a box and only given the choice of shaggin' a relative... My opinion only...


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

Diluting was the wrong term. Sorry about that.


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## sd1981 (Jun 20, 2013)

I get what you're saying bud, all good...


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

BloodRunsCold said:


> anything that isn't natural I consider morph's sure there are some wild animal's with these trait's but that's for nature to decide not us. The keeping of Australian fauna is a privilege as is so making these human creation's should be illegal whatever state you live in you can consider reptile keeping a form of conservation but why go as far as changing the species we already have it's against nature plus some people would die for our native animals literally so why don't we put as much effort into conserving what we have rather then making something breathtaking look around the natural beauty is astounding here take a minute to breath it all in and I guarantee you, that you will be at peace...



I like this. Keeping Reptiles IS a privilege you're right


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I'm done arguing. If I have to explain how inbreeding is bad then I'm in the wrong thread. They are creating weaker animals, diluting the species and making them look completely different to the natural, normal form. How is that NOT bad?


Many breeding combinations in nature produce both desirable and undesirable traits in animals but in nature the undesirable traits usually die before maturity so the gene is not passed on to future generations. These traits are passed on through alleles and inbreeding reduces the amount of alleles available increasing the chance of both desirable and undesirable traits occurring and out crossing can be done to introduce a new set of alleles to the line. I am not trying to argue with you about this because I think irresponsible breeders go too far with this and I am against it but think that the amount of reptiles that suffer from line breeding is very minimal if done correctly and also pointing out that in nature these traits surface as well but die off usually.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm just really passionate about Australian Reptiles, reptiles everywhere in fact but especially my Aussie critters. Humans have already done too much damage. Like BloodRunsCold said, keeping reptiles is a privilege, not a right, not some experiment or designer fashion statement. I haven't been rude or nasty to anyone, I just stated my opinion. I'm a purist and a naturalist. If it doesn't happen in the wild it's not on for me. And I've never caught or seen a saggy, spikeless Beardy in the wild.


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## Leasdraco (Jun 20, 2013)

I agree that breeders should have an understanding of genetics before they attempt to breed reptiles as close as siblings or parent/offspring to get a "desirable" mutation. But reptiles do not suffer the same effects of direct inbreeding/linebreeding as mammals do.


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## BloodRunsCold (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I'm just really passionate about Australian Reptiles, reptiles everywhere in fact but especially my Aussie critters. Humans have already done too much damage. Like BloodRunsCold said, keeping reptiles is a privilege, not a right, not some experiment or designer fashion statement. I haven't been rude or nasty to anyone, I just stated my opinion. I'm a purist and a naturalist. If it doesn't happen in the wild it's not on for me. And I've never caught or seen a saggy, spikeless Beardy in the wild.



I guesstimate that these breed's will not last anyway's because of the weakness in the breed's and that natural breed's will prevail HOPEFULLY but it is said that from human tampering that no life will exist in the next 100k years very sad but a possible reality we must love life while we are here people LOOVE LIFE CONSERVE AND DO YOUR PART IF YOU CAN


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> When is inbreeding EVER okay? I say never.



Mate I think you need to take a look at the history of reptile keeping. Almost all captive bred animals have been line bred at some stage.


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I'm just really passionate about Australian Reptiles, reptiles everywhere in fact but especially my Aussie critters. Humans have already done too much damage. Like BloodRunsCold said, keeping reptiles is a privilege, not a right, not some experiment or designer fashion statement. I haven't been rude or nasty to anyone, I just stated my opinion. I'm a purist and a naturalist. If it doesn't happen in the wild it's not on for me. And I've never caught or seen a saggy, spikeless Beardy in the wild.


I admire your passion for Aussie reptiles and conservation and also respect your opinion. I also love Aussie reptiles and have my opinions too and enjoy discussing stuff like this. I think that you usually don't see as many morphs in the wild because they are killed off because they stand out instead of blend in. One question about breeding though, how do you suppose we breed animals in captivity? Do you think that we put a bunch of them together and let natural pairings happen?


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I admire your passion for Aussie reptiles and conservation and also respect your opinion. I also love Aussie reptiles and have my opinions too and enjoy discussing stuff like this. I think that you usually don't see as many morphs in the wild because they are killed off because they stand out instead of blend in. One question about breeding though, how do you suppose we breed animals in captivity? Do you think that we put a bunch of them together and let natural pairings happen?



What's wrong with simply not inbreeding? Having two healthy and natural/default forms and breeding them? Just being happy with and like them for what they already are?


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> What's wrong with simply not inbreeding? Having two healthy and natural/default forms and breeding them? Just being happy with and like them for what they already are?


Nothing wrong at all mate but inbreeding reduces the amount of genetics in the mix increasing the chances of favourable outcomes. I am all for two genetically different snakes breeding but just don't see a problem with responsible inbreeding.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> What's wrong with simply not inbreeding? Having two healthy and natural/default forms and breeding them? Just being happy with and like them for what they already are?


Like it or not you are still selecting for traits, even if you are doing so subconsciously, as soon as humans start to breed an animal natural selection in the traditional sense is over. Selecting for morphs just speeds it up a tad.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> Like it or not you are still selecting for traits, even if you are doing so subconsciously, as soon as humans start to breed an animal natural selection in the traditional sense is over. Selecting for morphs just speeds it up a tad.



FINE! Think what you want. But to me a Jungle will NEVER be jet black and Beardies will ALWAYS have spikes ect. I will NEVER breed morphs.


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## CptLici (Jun 20, 2013)

I wonder if reptiles will ever become like cars.

While modifying the engine, paintwork, mags, etc of a classic may have instantly made the car "cooler" than it's stock-standard counterparts, 30 years down the track the standards are selling for 500k while the modifieds sell for 50k.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

CptLici said:


> I wonder if reptiles will ever become like cars.
> 
> While modifying the engine, paintwork, mags, etc of a classic may have instantly made the car "cooler" than it's stock-standard counterparts, 30 years down the track the standards are selling for 500k while the modifieds sell for 50k.



And then you can come to me for the genuine article


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## Dendrobates (Jun 20, 2013)

Keeping reptiles as pets will never contribute to conservation, they have nothing to do with each other. These captive reptiles will never ever be used to repopulate the wild. Inbreeding in reptiles also occurs a lot in the wild, especially in small populations. The people that say that morphs don't occur or are rare in the wild need to get out a bit more and actually see some wild reptiles! Stripes, reduced patterns, patternless, hypomelanism, hypermelanism, etc etc are all very common in the wild! Armchair herpers just don't know they exist because they can't drag themselves away from their reptile forums..

I like wild type animals so I personally don't care for all the shaky head jag, leatherback, super zebra snow axanthic blah blah crap but I also don't care if other people do it. Each to their own. Line breeding these reptiles is NO different to line breeding dogs, and every single domestic dog breed is line bred.. so if you own a domestic dog but think line breeding reptiles is wrong then you are a hypocrite. I don't get the blaming the Americans for this stuff either, we are just as bad for it so it seems of late...I see these beardies have now hit our shores and are being pumped out for the $$$.


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## BloodRunsCold (Jun 20, 2013)

CptLici said:


> I wonder if reptiles will ever become like cars.
> 
> While modifying the engine, paintwork, mags, etc of a classic may have instantly made the car "cooler" than it's stock-standard counterparts, 30 years down the track the standards are selling for 500k while the modifieds sell for 50k.



no I doubt it unless they get so big we can ride them like golden axe lmao


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't own a dog. I only like native animals. I don't care for big dollars and I despise treating reptiles as designer items. I'll take a good old wild form Aussie reptile over the most expensive and crazy morph any day. When you all have cyber neon pythons shooting lasers from their eyes or whatever (dramatization) I'll be enjoying and appreciating the good old fashioned, wild native forms.


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## ozziepythons (Jun 20, 2013)

What many of us who have been in the reptile keeping hobby for 20+ years have noticed is the cultural shift in the perception of what constitutes desirable reptiles in a collection. Now designer reptiles advertised with clever marketing strategies are highly sought after, and I've even noticed pythons with the slightest difference in a pattern are being thrown online as an exciting new morph with a price tag to boot. This is the way the hobby is going, but what is disturbing is the way natural 'wild' coloured reptiles are becoming seen as undesirable, cheap even disposable, not worthy of much if any decent attention by the new generation of keepers. How many new keepers out there care little if their bargain priced grey bearded dragon or coastal carpet they bought on an impulse deteriorates and dies if they can just replace it next season when they are even cheaper, sold by breeders who find them increasingly difficult to sell in a buyers market?


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

ozziepythons said:


> What many of us who have been in the reptile keeping hobby for 20+ years have noticed is the cultural shift in the perception of what constitutes desirable reptiles in a collection. Now designer reptiles advertised with clever marketing strategies are highly sought after, and I've even noticed pythons with the slightest difference in a pattern are being thrown online as an exciting new morph with a price tag to boot. This is the way the hobby is going, but what is disturbing is the way natural 'wild' coloured reptiles are seen as undesirable, cheap even disposable, not worthy of much if any decent attention. How many new keepers out there care little of their bargain priced grey bearded dragon or coastal carpet they bought on an impulse deteriorates and dies if they can just replace it?



EXACTLY! It cheapens reptiles. The sad thing is there are breeders out there that simply dispose of the undesired outcomes. It's disgusting!


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## AntaresiaFreak13 (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I'm just really passionate about Australian Reptiles, reptiles everywhere in fact but especially my Aussie critters. Humans have already done too much damage. Like BloodRunsCold said, keeping reptiles is a privilege, not a right, not some experiment or designer fashion statement. I haven't been rude or nasty to anyone, I just stated my opinion. I'm a purist and a naturalist. If it doesn't happen in the wild it's not on for me. And I've never caught or seen a saggy, spikeless Beardy in the wild.



i agree with you 110% i love normals i don't like morphs except maybe an albino but they occur naturally.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

I have a basic, 'boring' wild form Childrens and I LOVE him to bits! Worth a Million times more to me than any shiny morph.


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

ozziepythons said:


> What many of us who have been in the reptile keeping hobby for 20+ years have noticed is the cultural shift in the perception of what constitutes desirable reptiles in a collection. Now designer reptiles advertised with clever marketing strategies are highly sought after, and I've even noticed pythons with the slightest difference in a pattern are being thrown online as an exciting new morph with a price tag to boot. This is the way the hobby is going, but what is disturbing is the way natural 'wild' coloured reptiles are seen as undesirable, cheap even disposable, not worthy of much if any decent attention. How many new keepers out there care little of their bargain priced grey bearded dragon or coastal carpet they bought on an impulse deteriorates and dies if they can just replace it?


I for one have a plain spotted python , a plain coastal python , a plain bearded dragon that I care for and love very much . My other reptiles are a coastal cross diamond that I think has exceptional black and white colours which I bought as a hatchling for $25 because it was unwanted from an accidental breeding that I also love and two pinstripe BHP's that are my my most expensive snakes but love equally as much as my others. None of mine are disposable or any more special than the others I have. I also think that you are right that some do see them that way.


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## Dendrobates (Jun 20, 2013)

I keep seeing people say that they don't like morphs but they like such and such because it occurs naturally... the vast majority of morphs occur naturally. Where do a lot of keepers think the original version came from? Magic?

Also what constitutes a 'boring wild-type' snake? Snake species vary a lot in colour and pattern from locality to locality in the WILD.


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## NickGeee (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah! I think the regular colored pilbs are way better then those ablino ones.


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## AntaresiaFreak13 (Jun 20, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> Keeping reptiles as pets will never contribute to conservation, they have nothing to do with each other. These captive reptiles will never ever be used to repopulate the wild. Inbreeding in reptiles also occurs a lot in the wild, especially in small populations. The people that say that morphs don't occur or are rare in the wild need to get out a bit more and actually see some wild reptiles! Stripes, reduced patterns, patternless, hypomelanism, hypermelanism, etc etc are all very common in the wild! Armchair herpers just don't know they exist because they can't drag themselves away from their reptile forums..
> 
> I like wild type animals so I personally don't care for all the shaky head jag, leatherback, super zebra snow axanthic blah blah crap but I also don't care if other people do it. Each to their own. Line breeding these reptiles is NO different to line breeding dogs, and every single domestic dog breed is line bred.. so if you own a domestic dog but think line breeding reptiles is wrong then you are a hypocrite. I don't get the blaming the Americans for this stuff either, we are just as bad for it so it seems of late...I see these beardies have now hit our shores and are being pumped out for the $$$.



that is why i own a dingo


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

AntaresiaFreak13 said:


> that is why i own a dingo


Out of interest is there any special license requirements to own a dingo? I think it may be illegal in Queensland.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> I keep seeing people say that they don't like morphs but they like such and such because it occurs naturally... the vast majority of morphs occur naturally. Where do a lot of keepers think the original version came from? Magic?
> 
> Also what constitutes a 'boring wild-type' snake? Snake species vary a lot in colour and pattern from locality to locality in the WILD.



If it occurs naturally then fine. But I doubt you could find me a spikeless Beardy in the wild. Or a jet black Jungle carpet.


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## Dendrobates (Jun 20, 2013)

If a spikeless beardy has the potential to randomly pop up in someones captive breeding then it also has the potential to pop up in the wild, it may not survive, but it's not impossible. Jet black Jungles have been found in the wild.. it's called hypermelanism, an extreme case of it. The same has also appeared in other Morelia species..

I am in no way defending this type of designer breeding, like I've said I like my wild-type animals and my career is in the conservation of them, but I'm just trying to make people open their minds up a bit more to what is actually out there in the wild.. just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


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## BloodRunsCold (Jun 20, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> I keep seeing people say that they don't like morphs but they like such and such because it occurs naturally... the vast majority of morphs occur naturally. Where do a lot of keepers think the original version came from? Magic?
> 
> Also what constitutes a 'boring wild-type' snake? Snake species vary a lot in colour and pattern from locality to locality in the WILD.



natural morph's and man made morph's are very different such man made morph's would never naturally occur wildy inless there where a medling god around come on eventually all natural morph's get bred back into the system but that's at a slow pace what if a manmade escaped morph found it's way to the natural colony that could mean a doomed generation of Australian natives I mean looking at how fast other animal's become no more it's possible also on your note BORING lmao they have the same appearance just because they have exciting new colour's ...treasure aaaaaaw typical!!!!!!!!!!


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## NickGeee (Jun 20, 2013)

That thing looks more like an alien than a beardy!
I guess there is always people out there trying to produce the new morph or whatever. If someone line bred a "Deep red" beardy morph and one of the hatchies was not up to scratch as being sold a "Deep red" it would be sold as a "Cherry red" or something. The naming and breeding of specific morphs is absolutely riddiculous!

I'm hoping the Aussie herp industry won't turn out like Americas.
They have so many morphs of leopard geckos. Have you ever seen one of those YouTube videos were this kid has these tiny tubs with paper as a substrate and he takes 30 minutes taking a run down of all his morphs? Double snake eyed, hyper snow and giant?.
Again this is ridiculous.


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## AntaresiaFreak13 (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Out of interest is there any special license requirements to own a dingo? I think it may be illegal in Queensland.



I actually don't know it was given to me as a pup with 4 broken ribs and a broken paw because my mates dad accidentally hit it while 4x4 offroading. I still get those looks of disapproval when I take him to the dog park. lol


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## Dendrobates (Jun 20, 2013)

BloodRunsCold said:


> natural morph's and man made morph's are very different such man made morph's would never naturally occur wildy inless there where a medling god around come on eventually all natural morph's get bred back into the system but that's at a slow pace what if a manmade escaped morph found it's way to the natural colony that could mean a doomed generation of Australian natives I mean looking at how fast other animal's become no more it's possible also on your note BORING lmao they have the same appearance just because they have exciting new colour's ......treasure aaaaaaw typical!!!!!!!!!!



Please use some punctuation and learn to spell so I can actually understand what you are trying to say. 

I would love to know what morphs DON'T occur in the wild (excluding jags)? One escaped captive animal does not mean a doomed generation of wild animals, it will be quickly absorbed back into the natural gene pool. You really need to learn about native reptile ecology before throwing random crap around that you obviously have no clue about.


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## B_STATS (Jun 20, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> Please use some punctuation and learn to spell so I can actually understand what you are trying to say.
> 
> I would love to know what morphs DON'T occur in the wild (excluding jags)? One escaped captive animal does not mean a doomed generation of wild animals, it will be quickly absorbed back into the natural gene pool. You really need to learn about native reptile ecology before throwing random crap around that you obviously have no clue about.



No need to be a jerk mate. Look at the animal at the start of this thread. THAT wouldn't happen in the wild. Poor thing looks like a cancer patient.


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

AntaresiaFreak13 said:


> I actually don't know it was given to me as a pup with 4 broken ribs and a broken paw because my mates dad accidentally hit it while 4x4 offroading. I still get those looks of disapproval when I take him to the dog park. lol


I just looked and yes it is illegal to keep dingoes in Queensland and carries a $40000 dollar fine because they are considered a pest outside of protected areas. I am not looking up the rules in NSW because that is where you are from and I have nothing against you keeping it.


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## Dendrobates (Jun 20, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> No need to be a jerk mate. Look at the animal at the start of this thread. THAT wouldn't happen in the wild. Poor thing looks like a cancer patient.



I'm not trying to be a jerk, just saying that people need to actually get a clue before arguing against something and throwing around untruthful statements like they are facts. I agree with you that the beardy that started this thread more than likely wouldn't happen in the wild, but it's not impossible for one to pop up with the lack of spikes or scaleless look, it wouldn't have been line bred to look like that one, but the basics are not impossible. My argument is more for the fact that most 'morphs' in captive reptiles also occur in the wild - possibly even in an even more advanced form for all we know? 
As someone that works with wild reptiles I get sick of seeing people on forums saying "this can't occur in the wild", "that must be an escaped pet because it doesn't look like a wild type", etc when I've seen a lot of weird and different looking herps for myself out in the bush.


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## Becca-Marie (Jun 20, 2013)

From what I understand of genetics and not just snakes, all these morphs naturally occur or have the potential to naturally occur. All we did was (by chance) breed two animals together and got something that appealed to us. We figured out what caused the "pretty" and attempted and successfully duplicated it. You cant tell me snakes, or any wild animal, dont inbreed because especially in small populations theres only so many females and neither of them care if they are related lol. Obviously breeders need to outcross and once again this occurs naturally. Not breeding something that appeals to us is just as silly as keeping animals that dont appeal to us, in my opinion. By the way if there werent breeders then we would only be able to buy wild caught which would drastically reduce our wild snakes which is clearly not a thing we want. I dont condone inbreeding to inexperienced or greedy breeders but to the ones who have a love for the reptiles and care for their welfare....they are providing the rest of us with our much loved pets.

Sent from my LG-P690f using Tapatalk 2


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> I'm not trying to be a jerk, just saying that people need to actually get a clue before arguing against something and throwing around untruthful statements like they are facts. I agree with you that the beardy that started this thread more than likely wouldn't happen in the wild, but it's not impossible for one to pop up with the lack of spikes or scaleless look, it wouldn't have been line bred to look like that one, but the basics are not impossible. My argument is more for the fact that most 'morphs' in captive reptiles also occur in the wild - possibly even in an even more advanced form for all we know?
> As someone that works with wild reptiles I get sick of seeing people on forums saying "this can't occur in the wild", "that must be an escaped pet because it doesn't look like a wild type", etc when I've seen a lot of weird and different looking herps for myself out in the bush.


Have you done herping all around Australia or just in Queensland? Just out of interest and nothing meant by the question.


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## Dendrobates (Jun 20, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Have you done herping all around Australia or just in Queensland? Just out of interest and nothing meant by the question.



All states except for the bottom half of WA, SA and Tasmania.


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## andynic07 (Jun 20, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> All states except for the bottom half of WA, SA and Tasmania.


I would love to see some wild Tasmanian tiger snakes.


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## J-A-X (Jun 20, 2013)

If you can't have an adult debate without the mudslinging and name calling, I will happily close the thread !


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## Venomous_RBB (Jun 21, 2013)

The beardie looks fine to me, just not really much like a beardie anymore.
But he looks healthy and has a bright colour.
As someone before me said, he is alert to his surroundings, he has clear eyes and looks clean. Personally I just think its a weird angle the picture was taken in.

Honestly I am not getting into the morph debate, yes I read every comment before me.


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## thesilverbeast (Jun 21, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> I am completely against morph breeding. It's a disgusting act. I don't care who gets upset at this opinion.




How can breeding albino carpets or hypo bredli's be called a "disgusting act"?


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## reptinate (Jun 21, 2013)

Man, some people need to calm down. So you don't like morphs, good for you, don't buy one then. Why is that so hard? If others enjoy keeping different types of morphs as well as wild types, then that's their choice. People who keep morphs love reptiles just as much! 
As for me, I don't have a problem with morphs as long as they are pretty healthy. There are some beautiful ones out there. I LOVE all the different colour and pattern morphs of Ball Pythons. Would love to own some of them. Yep, that's right. And yep, I can love wild types at the same time. Plus I own other domestic animals, so I would be a hypocrite if I said I hated morphs and linebreeding. My understanding is that inbreeding doesn't affect reptiles the same way.


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## Endeavour (Jun 21, 2013)

This thread has some very insightful posts that really make you think. It demonstrates yet again that the differences in the keeping and breeding of reptiles make our hobby the interesting pastime it is. We might not agree with everyone's opinions but for me it's sometimes these contrasts that take my thought process in an exciting new direction.

Kindest regards

Endeavour


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## dragondragon (Jun 21, 2013)

What you dont want super snow albine het superman incredible hulk nephurus lawsonii


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## buffcoat (Jun 21, 2013)

Why must it be Americans? Germany and the UK have morphs that haven't made their way here yet. And what about the bluey morphs that can only be gotten there in Oz?

I'm with most, some morphs take it a bit far but others are amazing looking. 

To each his own I guess. Don't like, don't buy. Inbreeding does not effect reptiles like it does humans.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## andynic07 (Jun 21, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> Oh Andy asked me what this American owned Beardy had to do with Australia's population of wilds.


I didn't mention the American owned beardy at all in any of my posts, I think it was Junglepython2 and Badsville that mentioned America.


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## Misnomer (Jun 21, 2013)

buffcoat said:


> Inbreeding does not effect reptiles like it does humans.



If I think about this too much I get depressed.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jun 21, 2013)

B_STATS said:


> No need to be a jerk mate. Look at the animal at the start of this thread. THAT wouldn't happen in the wild. Poor thing looks like a cancer patient.



Difference is that in the wild these animals are killed or simply die very quickly. In captivity people persevere with them in order to capitalise on the variation.


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## borntobnude (Jun 21, 2013)

buffcoat said:


> Why must it be Americans? Germany and the UK have morphs that haven't made their way here yet. And what about the bluey morphs that can only be gotten there in Oz?
> 
> I'm with most, some morphs take it a bit far but others are amazing looking.
> 
> ...


I took the pic from an AMERICAN breeders website !!. I am slightly disappointed that it took 84replies before an American got hold , its what I wanted, BUT just 1 ??  I don't like any dog with OODLE in its name unless its a POODLE either but again that's just me :shock: .As Australians we tend to be a bit defensive of our pure breds for several reasons , Most are VERY unique . Our borders are Fairly protected (could be better), And they are just perfect the way they are . !!!!


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## ingie (Jun 21, 2013)

borntobnude said:


> I don't like any dog with OODLE in its name unless its a POODLE either but again that's just me :shock: .As Australians we tend to be a bit defensive of our pure breds for several reasons , Most are VERY unique



You won't be seeing any poodles in the wild LOL. Guess what all domesticated dogs are? Morphs haha.

Different morphs are often still pure bred, and things like a black jungle, can exist in the wild with no ill health at all. As someone said, it isn't magic (or radioactive leakages) that makes these traits pop up in captive breeding programs, they occur *naturally*, just like they can occur naturally in the wild. A difference in colour and pattern that would arise in a pairing of same locality animals, doesn't mean an animal is guaranteed to be any less healthy or functional. If you noticed that was the case, I would agree that it would be unethical to breed them, and I in no way agree that it is OK to reproduce a reptile with impaired functionality or ill health, so I am purely discussing visual traits that have no negative effects on health. However, if the animal is capable of being healthy and functional in captivity (how it would fare in the wild in terms of being easily spotted by predators etc is irrelevant), then there is no cruelty involved.

I personally prefer locality specific critters, but it isn't really possible to maintain locality specific breeding programs of particular species and sub species, without inbreeding to some degree, knowingly or unknowingly. If you like *pure bred* animals for your collections, then you must be OK with inbreeding, as there is not much opportunity to avoid it. Whether you pair together two individuals with a similar pattern/colour, in the hope of getting more of the same because you like them like that, or you pair them to something that is randomly different in appearance and gives you a more *natural* experience because it is random like in the wild, you are still likely breeding relatives to some degree, and the experience of the offspring produced, is going to be the same. People can say they like things one way or the other, but if the animal is still happy, healthy and fully functional, all arguments on whether it is immoral, disgusting, fabulous or indifferent, are completely self serving and have nothing to do with the quality of experience for each individual reptile produced. The baby is hatched, it finds a good home, and lives life oblivious to it's colour or pattern, eating, shedding and pooping like any other reptile. 

There simply is not a never ending source of unrelated locality specific lineages for people to keep outcrossing with. Many captive species and sub species stem from a very few individuals, and you have no choice but to breed relatives, or to go back to the wild for more! Even species/sub species where there are a lot of individuals available from oodles of different breeders around the country, jungle carpets for example, have largely stemmed from a few different popular captive lineages, which would have originally come from a very small number of individuals collected from a particular area for each lineage, and will all be genetically very closely matched to many of the other individuals around the country that you assume they are genetically distant from. I guess you would have to start cross breeding localities and sub species, to actually increase genetic diversity for sure LOL. Catch 22 for purists who hate inbreeding! 

Genetic diversity is useful in the wild so that there is always a diversity of different traits that may or may not suit a changing environment, and allow the species to survive and adapt. However, not much changes in captive husbandry, so things that may have an animal killed in the wild (eg an outrageous colour), have absolutely no negative implications for a pet snake in a safe enclosure. Inbreeding can also be used to select for health and other positive traits, and to breed out negative traits.


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## Snowman (Jun 21, 2013)

J-A-X said:


> If you can't have an adult debate without the mudslinging and name calling, I will happily close the thread !


It's a little embarrassing to watch isn't it. Especially when some people try to defend a point of view that makes it clear they have very little understanding of genetics. I think the mixture of passion and limited education in certain fields means the passion over rides everything else. It's fine to have opinions. Just don't push them in anyone else and accept and respect those who's opinions are different. FACTS however are not opinions and it seems this thread lacks a lot of FACTS.


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## B_STATS (Jun 21, 2013)

Seems this caused quite a stir. Lots of different views. Some childish responses that have been removed. I hold my position of being against the designer reptile/fashion statement fad but do not condemn slight variations like the albinos and intergrades that occur in the wild. I'm a proud Aussie and I am proud and protective of our unique wildlife. I don't believe it needs 'improving' and I appreciate what we have. I also believe they should stay in Australia and get quite angered when I see others seemingly abusing our natives in their countries. The fact is they always get carried away and lose sight of any appreciation and respect when it comes to things like this. I wont play God and produce countless inbred clutches and keep reptiles in tight shelves like a prison to get the 'just right' colour or shape. God knows what they do with the ones that 'failed'. I keep all my reptiles in natural-looking enclosures with plenty of room to live happy lives without feeling imprisoned. If I cannot provide such a home for my animals then I do not keep them. That's me and I wont change. I don't need a broad knowledge of genetics to see the problems facing the hobby, seems it's becoming all about the dollars and the next new thing. Not me. I guess I'm old school.


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## rsk1979 (Jun 21, 2013)

Good example of what Ingie wrote would be the rough scaled python. Every captive snake comes from the five founding ones that started the captive breeding program


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## James_Scott (Jun 21, 2013)

The animal pictured looks different but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with it or that its quality of life is any less than normal. Im glad there are people on both sides of the fence on this. It insures there will always be straight blood lines and a large variety of morphs out there.


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## Firepac (Jun 21, 2013)

*sigh* thread closed....


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