# Good Ol' Gumtree



## Bl69aze (Nov 10, 2018)

Not my pictures - off ARE facebook page

But good lord


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 10, 2018)

Hehe... I've seen Murray river turtles advertised on Gumtree.... for $650. Lol they're as common as the cold and are the most genetically tainted species on the continent with no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade... tops they're worth like $45. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and laugh.


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## Neil j (Nov 11, 2018)

The thing is with out anybody breeding bredli, due to their low value,low variation, huge clutches what ever. Their availability has fallen and the price can be hiked but not that much not right now. Probably ever.

When the opertunity finally came up to sell my adult girls a couple of years back I was like 100 dollars if you take both.


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## Sdaji (Nov 12, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hehe... I've seen Murray river turtles advertised on Gumtree.... for $650. Lol they're as common as the cold and are the most genetically tainted species on the continent with no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade... tops they're worth like $45. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and laugh.



What do you mean by 'genetically tainted' and having 'no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade'?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 12, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> What do you mean by 'genetically tainted' and having 'no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade'?


Too many people keep various Emydura sp together from various locations... Macleays, Krefft's, Hunter river, Clarence river, Brisbane river, Murray's etc and they interbreed. As they are all sub species of the Murray river turtle, they are all just sold under the blanket category of "Murray's" which they are not... there are also many known "tainted painteds" for sale which aren't pure Emydura subglobosa but subglobosa × krefftii. 

Basically you've got no way of knowing what a store bought Emydura sp actually is.


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## cris (Nov 12, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Too many people keep various Emydura sp together from various locations... Macleays, Krefft's, Hunter river, Clarence river, Brisbane river, Murray's etc and they interbreed. As they are all sub species of the Murray river turtle, they are all just sold under the blanket category of "Murray's" which they are not... there are also many known "tainted painteds" for sale which aren't pure Emydura subglobosa but subglobosa × krefftii.
> 
> Basically you've got no way of knowing what a store bought Emydura sp actually is.



Dats rasis.


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## Sdaji (Nov 13, 2018)

cris said:


> Dats rasis.



Heh heh. Imagine if we took the rules which are apparently of critical importance for animals and applied them to humans! But fear not, there is no apparent risk of sanity or logical consistency being introduced to the system.

I'd love to watch the social meltdown if human genetics suddenly had political correctness removed and there was a genuine free flow of real information put into the genetics journals. Haha, it would probably literally cause a world war. But it's cool, there are totally, completely and utterly no genetic differences between the radically different races of humans. Oh, I mean, race doesn't even exist! But animals which freely and routinely interbreed in the wild and are all part of one big population... nah, they're totally completely different species.

I don't think people really care about the specifics of the taxonomy of their pet Emydura. It's still a cute turtle and that's all they want.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not racist and will have hybrid/half breed kids of my own. But while humans are obviously of utmost importance, this issue is SO MUCH not a problem that it's literally illegal to even suggest that it might be a problem... but when it comes to mere pet animals of no ecological relevance, making hybrids is illegal and in some case is punishable by (their own) death!

Well done, humans! You totally have logic sorted out.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> I don't think people really care about the specifics of the taxonomy of their pet Emydura. It's still a cute turtle and that's all they want.


No, many people probably don't care (ignorance is bliss) and if it were confined to captivity it's not a big problem but the REALITY is most people DO care and it's not confined to captivity and when they've forked out the money for a Macleay river turtle which over 6-7 years grows to a max SCL of 14cm (male) 18cm (female) and the appropriate 4ft setup and all equipment only to discover their 18 month old 40cm "Macleay" now can't even turn around in its aquarium... this is where the problems begin... if those turtles escape from poorly constructed slap together outdoor ponds (turtles can climb very well) or are released/dumped into the wild because the keeper lost interest or is disgusted that the "Macleay" they bought grew to the size of a dinner plate... then it becomes a huge problem. It probably doesn't happen a lot in this country with most captive snakes and lizards but it happens a lot with turtles and the damage done is irreversible.

It's no different to someone purchasing a mini foxy pup that turns out to be a Dalmatian. Imagine getting an Antaresia perthenis after waiting several seasons only to find you need to start breeding rabbits to feed the 8ft serpent it turned into..

Here is an adult m/f breeding pair of Macleays (the smallest Emydura sp on the east coast of Australia) that are 7 years old. (These are what most people getting into turtles want... because they're small and stay small and can be kept indoors for life.)





Here is a 7 year old Murray... do you still think the difference is negligible??




*Photo credit Paul Price*

The 2 can interbreed freely and at hatching, it is very difficult for an inexperienced person to know the difference between the 2 (although a clutch of 35 would raise some red flags when Macleays only lay 6-9 eggs) so they go by what the breeder says and or the store assistant and when they pay for 1 and get the other... well many people get p***ed off and turtles get dumped. Up here in Toowoomba, our local city park lakes are all teeming with dumped store bought Emydura hybrids... the local signata populations have been destroyed. It sucks. Right up the coast of eastern Australia, whole local populations of wild turtles are being genetically ruined like in the Hunter River and worse... annihilated like what happened in the Bellinger. Dumped hybrid Murray's are also causing a serious decline in the remaining wild population of the critically endangered Manning River turtle.

If you actually want to get what you pay for, I'd recommend Never purchasing an Emydura sp from a store or Gumtree.


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## GBWhite (Nov 13, 2018)

What happened to the Bellinger River Turtle had nothing to do with Emydura. It was a result of a virus that was introduced to the river. There is also no evidence what so ever that the Emydura are an introduced species to the river. In fact it wasn't that long ago that it was put forward to have them classified as an endangered species, endemic only to the Bellinger River (Bellingen River Emydura).


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> What happened to the Bellinger River Turtle had nothing to do with Emydura. It was a result of a virus that was introduced to the river. There is also no evidence what so ever that the Emydura are an introduced species to the river. In fact it wasn't that long ago that it was put forward to have them classified as an endangered species, endemic only to the Bellinger River (Bellingen River Emydura).


No it had nothing to do with the Emydura that were present in the system already but I'd bet my bottom dollar it has plenty to do with dumped captive turtles into the river.
Also George, the Emydura were introduced to the river as we have confirmed evidence of the mating with georgesi. This results in sterile hybrid turtles that are unable to reproduce. If the Emydura were always present in the Bellinger, the Bellinger River snapper would have been extinct hundreds of years ago. I'm sorry but that theory is total garbage whether you want to agree with it or not. Prior to man's interference, there were no Emydura present in the Bellinger or Manning systems.


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## GBWhite (Nov 13, 2018)

There's a lot more to the introduction of the virus than you'll ever know. Mate there is no evidence that any captive Emydura were dumped in the Bellinger, it's just speculation by Ricky Spencer and I wouldn't be surprised that the speculation has more to do with acquiring ongoing funding than anything else. If you want to know the truth, what happened back in the 90's was that when the mob were here doing their study on the Emydura that were all ready present in the river one of the rangers from Coffs thought he would help and arrived with half a dozen that he'd collected from the Orara. When it was explained to him that the ones he brought with him were not conducive to the study he left them in a covered box on a the side of the river while he went looking for turtles with the mob and when they returned they discovered that some had escaped. Just because there are confirmed hybrids means jack ****. For all we know this could have been happening for eons but has only come to light since the situation with the virus.


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## cris (Nov 13, 2018)

In any case, keeping a race that is not from your local area presents the same potential risk if it is pure or a hybrid. It is a good reason to allow the local races or species to be collected for people who keep wildlife.




Sdaji said:


> Heh heh. Imagine if we took the rules which are apparently of critical importance for animals and applied them to humans! But fear not, there is no apparent risk of sanity or logical consistency being introduced to the system.



I was listening to someone making this case a couple days ago. (warning video contains autistic white nationalists lol)


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2018)

George let's just agree to disagree on the origin of the Bellinger River Emydura. This has nothing to do with Ricky Spencer or any other paper pusher's "theories." AFT has been monitoring the river systems of NSW long before they started paying any attention and long before the virus outbreak we were already concerned for the future of georgesi due to the negative impact being made on them by the presence of the INTRODUCED Emydura. The virus outbreak just made the existing problem 1000 times worse. Bottom line is those in the actual know, know it (Emydura sp) was never present before man interfered and the DNA samples of the Emydura sp from the Bellinger, Manning and the other second Emydura sp #2 from the Hunter are all one and the same, neither are a unique species worthy of conservative effort nor are they endangered in the slightest. If you connect all the dots it forms a straight line back over the GDR to the Macquarie river as that's where they all ultimately came from since the pet trade opened up. The same way Mary river turtles and southern snappers wound up in park lakes in Sydney. The original "penny turtles".
The Bellinger, Manning and Hunter systems only ever had 2 endemic turtle species... longicollis & georgesi, longicollis & purvisi, longicollis & E.m gunabarra respectively.

As for the virus' introduction into the Bellinger... I won't argue with what you think you know.


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## GBWhite (Nov 13, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> As for the virus' introduction into the Bellinger... I won't argue with what you think you know.



Ditto.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> Ditto.


Inevitably I will be in and passing through your neck of the woods again in the future as my work with the Manning River turtles continues. We can continue this bellinger turtle virus conversation in person. You can tell me what you and your buddies think might have happened and then I'll enlighten you. Until then...


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## GBWhite (Nov 13, 2018)

Yeah, thanks but no thanks. Don't need to be enlightened. My buddies are involved with the whole thing. One in particular has been involved since day one, he was actually the one that notified EPI after another one of my buddies discovered the dead and dying turtles. So all the info I get is direct from the horses mouth.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 13, 2018)

I’ll make sure to ask about Kev mckay and what he does next time I see my coworkers who directly work with bellinger river turtle conservation program and are also part of AFT

I’ll get back to you next time I see them


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## Stompsy (Nov 14, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> George let's just agree to disagree on the origin of the Bellinger River Emydura.
> 
> As for the virus' introduction into the Bellinger... I won't argue with what you think you know.





Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Inevitably I will be in and passing through your neck of the woods again in the future as my work with the Manning River turtles continues. We can continue this bellinger turtle virus conversation in person. You can tell me what you and your buddies think might have happened and then I'll enlighten you. Until then...



Are you agreeing to disagree or not Kev?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 14, 2018)

Stompsy said:


> Are you agreeing to disagree or not Kev?


Yeah it's done stomps. All good, no need to keep it going now.


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## Sdaji (Nov 14, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> No, many people probably don't care (ignorance is bliss) and if it were confined to captivity it's not a big problem but the REALITY is most people DO care and it's not confined to captivity and when they've forked out the money for a Macleay river turtle which over 6-7 years grows to a max SCL of 14cm (male) 18cm (female) and the appropriate 4ft setup and all equipment only to discover their 18 month old 40cm "Macleay" now can't even turn around in its aquarium... this is where the problems begin... if those turtles escape from poorly constructed slap together outdoor ponds (turtles can climb very well) or are released/dumped into the wild because the keeper lost interest or is disgusted that the "Macleay" they bought grew to the size of a dinner plate... then it becomes a huge problem. It probably doesn't happen a lot in this country with most captive snakes and lizards but it happens a lot with turtles and the damage done is irreversible.
> 
> It's no different to someone purchasing a mini foxy pup that turns out to be a Dalmatian. Imagine getting an Antaresia perthenis after waiting several seasons only to find you need to start breeding rabbits to feed the 8ft serpent it turned into..
> 
> ...



That was an awfully long post aimed at telling me a lot of stuff I already know and agree with and a couple of things which are wrong. I have formal qualifications in zoology, genetics and ecology and decades of experience breeding reptiles, so you don't need to explain these concepts to me.

I'm not saying purity is unimportant, but I am saying most people don't care. Put it this way, if they did care they'd be bothering to get pure stuff. Most people who buy baby turtles don't even keep them alive for a year. You can give however many examples of lovely people who adore their turtles, know all about them and do a fantastic job, but your own acknowledgement that mudbloods abound demonstrates that people don't care; if they did care everything would be pure. It is only because people don't care that the purity and genetic identity is not being kept track of.

For me personally, yep, I'd prefer something pure. Most people just want a pet turtle and wouldn't even know the word emeedoorwasomethingorother. As someone else said, hybrids pose no more risk than a 100% pure animal outside its own range, so if you think this is a concern it is reason to ban them all from captivity entirely, pure or not (this is not my position, though I do think the release of captive animals, accidental or deliberate, is a big problem, and we really should get rid of the myth that releasing animals into the wild is a noble thing, which is almost universally believed by everyone other than qualified ecologists). I used to be quite fanatical about locality (not just taxonomic) purity when breeding reptiles, and of the thousands of people I've sold reptiles to, almost none have cared about their often interesting backgrounds and histories and have been confused at why I've bothered to try to tell them. The vast majority of people just don't care. I wish everyone was as interested as you and I are, but however much we want it, and even if it would be better, it's just not the reality.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 14, 2018)

Cheers Sdaji - although you feel the release of captive animals into the wild isn't such a big deal, it really is as far as turtles go. In a semi-controlled captive situation for example if someone had a pond of Krefft's and a pond of Murray's separated but somehow 1 Murray got into the krefft pond, it can mate with all the females and those females will have hybrid offspring for the next 4 year's as a result. I know of blokes that had it happen with their murrays and signata... they did the right thing and froze all the eggs laid for the 4 following years. Now in the wild... when that happens... it just snowballs out of control thy hybrid Emydura grow up and reproduce and keep further diluting the genetics of the endemic population. It's another problem altogether when they start mating out of their species like with georgesi and purvisi (which is happening) those offspring are sterile hybrids. 

Anyway, it is what it is. Maybe you're right maybe only you and I care.


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## Sdaji (Nov 14, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Cheers Sdaji - although you feel the release of captive animals into the wild isn't such a big deal, it really is as far as turtles go. In a semi-controlled captive situation for example if someone had a pond of Krefft's and a pond of Murray's separated but somehow 1 Murray got into the krefft pond, it can mate with all the females and those females will have hybrid offspring for the next 4 year's as a result. I know of blokes that had it happen with their murrays and signata... they did the right thing and froze all the eggs laid for the 4 following years. Now in the wild... when that happens... it just snowballs out of control thy hybrid Emydura grow up and reproduce and keep further diluting the genetics of the endemic population. It's another problem altogether when they start mating out of their species like with georgesi and purvisi (which is happening) those offspring are sterile hybrids.
> 
> Anyway, it is what it is. Maybe you're right maybe only you and I care.



Dude, why would you tell me I feel the release of captive animals into the wild isn't a big deal immediately after I bluntly state the exact opposite?

And again you bang on trying to convince me of stuff I already 100% agree with and am very familiar with.

I'm sure it's not just you and I who care, but the vast majority don't - if they did, these problems wouldn't exist. The vast majority either just want to make money, or they just want a cute pet turtle and have no idea how large it will grow, don't have any concept of genetics or taxonomy and don't want to bother learning.

You really should be focussing on the fact that pure turtles outside of their natural range are just as harmful or worse than hybrids. A sterile hybrid isn't going to cause any dramas if released. A pure turtle outside of its range is either going to createall hybrids which are sterile, or worse, hybrids which are fertile. A fertile hybrid won't cause any extra damage.

I definitely see the problems existing, I just don't think many people care or understand, and even if they did understand, most people still wouldn't care. Talk to people about it, and not just educated, intelligent, aware people, but typical people. They don't get far past 'turtles are cute! Releasing animals into the wild is good, it's where they are supposed to be'. 20 years ago I used to beat my head against the proverbial brick wall when trying to talk people out of releasing frogs and snakes outside their natural distributions. After about 10 years I realised the only difference between trying and giving up was how much less my head hurt after giving up.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 14, 2018)

Sorry I misread a line in your previous post, my bad, I'm still at work. Yeah the entire Emydura complex is shot to shyte now and is why I got out of it entirely 2 years ago. I'll never keep Emydura sp again, there's no point. Here's to less headaches in a few years time when I've fully let it go. Lol

My biggest gripe is that within fragile systems like the Manning, where Emydura × Emydura hybrids that grow twice as big, twice as fast and sexually mature in 1/3 of the time and have clutches twice as big (every year compared to only 75% of purvisi breeding in any one season once they're 20 years old) - are running riot and quickly displacing and outcompeting the endemic species. Hybrids both fertile (Emydura × Emydura) and infertile (Emydura × Flaviemys) are a problem as they either compete directly or indirectly with the endemic species and Emydura are the most aggressive turtle species in Australia, turtle rapists... literally.. have you ever seen them in action? On several occasions I had to save a female Macleay from being drowned in my captive setups, it ain't pretty to watch, it's brutal and they usually need to spend up to a month in dry-dock after mating so their wounds can heal. I've kept small Emydura macquarii dharra captive with purvisi for 4 years as an experiment to see how the presence of Emydura affects them and they (purvisi) never once looked like breeding until the weeks after the Emydura were removed. Even though they were half the size, they have typical emydura attitude, like small dog syndrome. Once gone, Flaviemys (very shy, reserved, non aggressive, placid species) became totally different turtles and started behaving and interacting normally instead of hiding away during the daylight hours. This is the REALITY in the wild. In places where you used to be able to dive and see purvisi, are now totally inhabited by rogue Murray's.The Emydura and Emydura hybrids will ultimately suppress, stress and breed out until they cause the extinction of severely fragmented monotypic species like georgesi and purvisi. And this will be the end result of dumped pre-loved pets. They (Emydura) didn't get in there all on their own. Mother nature isn't that stupid, only humans are.
Pure turtles outside their natural range could be a problem except no one is dumping pure highly sought after species like Mary's, southern, northern and gulf snappers, pig-nose, Irwins, northern yellow faced, etc. anymore, they're far too hard to come by with no one breeding them... the dumping of turtles is pretty much restricted to the widely and readily available store bought Emydura complex because they're ultimately pond turtles not fit to spend life in indoor aquariums (they don't tell you this at point of purchase), unless the keeper is prepared to invest in monstrous setups that chew serious $$$ in power and dedicate the time to maintain it.

But... I'll get over it. One day. I can always look at pictures of our monotypic turtles in books and remember when they used to exist.

Ps. You'll need to give me your secret to giving up on people.


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## Sdaji (Nov 14, 2018)

Yeah, again, I totally agree with you and understand your concerns. Even in Melbourne the Emyduras are becoming established. When I was a kid I never saw an Emydura near Melbourne, but now they're quite common (hybrids, I assume, though I'm not 100% sure and it can be difficult to identify hybrids). Your concerns are totally valid and it's a great shame. Probably an even bigger concern will be the inevitable coming of the sliders, which will make the Emydura hybrid issue look like a blessing. But I wouldn't be surprised if even among the members of this forum here, if push came to shove and they were personally forced to either release sliders or kill them, more than half would release them, and I have no doubt more than half would release Emyduras outside their natural range rather than kill, and I bet more than half wouldn't even see it as a bad thing, or they'd sort of feel confused about things but would mostly just feel good about releasing an animal into the wild 'where it belongs'.

You'd probably enjoy seeing all the waterways in Thailand and sometimes in nearby countries, where people routinely buy turtles at the market to release. They are farmed and sold in large numbers specifically for the purpose of release to 'gain merit'. When I first saw them years ago I assumed they were being sold as food, and the first time I went to Lumpini park in Bangkok and saw the astonishing density of turtles in all the lakes I thought locals must just be feeding them a lot, allowing them to breed up to crazy numbers.

And yep, people release sliders to gain merit too, though most commonly it's another species (I can't recall which, despite seeing many thousands of them for sale! Oops!). You're actually making me feel inclined to get into the habit of harvesting and eating them.

Don't expect too much critical thinking or sanity from people or you'll be disappointed.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 14, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> Yeah, again, I totally agree with you and understand your concerns. Even in Melbourne the Emyduras are becoming established. When I was a kid I never saw an Emydura near Melbourne, but now they're quite common (hybrids, I assume, though I'm not 100% sure and it can be difficult to identify hybrids). Your concerns are totally valid and it's a great shame. Probably an even bigger concern will be the inevitable coming of the sliders, which will make the Emydura hybrid issue look like a blessing. But I wouldn't be surprised if even among the members of this forum here, if push came to shove and they were personally forced to either release sliders or kill them, more than half would release them, and I have no doubt more than half would release Emyduras outside their natural range rather than kill, and I bet more than half wouldn't even see it as a bad thing, or they'd sort of feel confused about things but would mostly just feel good about releasing an animal into the wild 'where it belongs'.
> 
> You'd probably enjoy seeing all the waterways in Thailand and sometimes in nearby countries, where people routinely buy turtles at the market to release. They are farmed and sold in large numbers specifically for the purpose of release to 'gain merit'. When I first saw them years ago I assumed they were being sold as food, and the first time I went to Lumpini park in Bangkok and saw the astonishing density of turtles in all the lakes I thought locals must just be feeding them a lot, allowing them to breed up to crazy numbers.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the sliders... I already have one of my own... preserved for eternity in resin. Just looking at the situation in New Zealand makes me lose sleep!

I saw a documentary, on sbs I think it was a while back now about the whole turtle release thing over in those countries. It's amazing what people will do on mass if they're led to believe it will benefit them in some way... 

Hehe thanks for the tip. Lowering my expectations right now. Lol


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## Sdaji (Nov 14, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Ps. You'll need to give me your secret to giving up on people.



I just learned to take a real world approach to things. The world is not what you want it to be, it is what it is. This is a basic concept most people can't grasp. It goes against human nature to see the world as it is and not what it should be (or what you think it should be).

I haven't really given up on people and do often make attempts to educate them if the opportunity to do it arises or I just feel so inclined, but I am realistic about how impossible it is to change the big picture and am generally at peace with it. Trying to fix stupid people is a bit like getting furious and frustrated and running around all day every day searching for Cane Toads and squeezing the life out of each one you find. After a lifetime you'd have made no impact on the toads and simply have ruined your life by wasting it on an unpleasant task which achieved nothing. I suppose my trying to educate people now is a little like running over a toad if I only have to slightly swerve for it, but knowing it won't change anything. That saying along the lines of 'learn to change what you can, ignore what you can't, and recognise the difference' comes to mind, even if the wording doesn't 
[doublepost=1542176244,1542175873][/doublepost]


Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Ah yes, the sliders... I already have one of my own... preserved for eternity in resin. Just looking at the situation in New Zealand makes me lose sleep!
> 
> I saw a documentary, on sbs I think it was a while back now about the whole turtle release thing over in those countries. It's amazing what people will do on mass if they're led to believe it will benefit them in some way...
> 
> Hehe thanks for the tip. Lowering my expectations right now. Lol



I hadn't seen the turtle release docos and knew nothing of it until I was witnessing it first hand. 

Don't lose sleep over it and come to terms with the slider invasion now, because I'm almost 100% certain it's inevitable. They keep popping up all over the country, so presumably it can't be stopped. Terrible shame, but what can you do? It is probably already happening and in full swing, but as your signature says, is happening slowly. It will be interesting to see if Corn Snakes end up establishing themselves, and if so, how much damage they will do. There are other species I'm sure could cause problems, but I don't even want to name them for fear of encouraging people to release some.

...and many people still want to legalise exotics!


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 14, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> I just learned to take a real world approach to things. The world is not what you want it to be, it is what it is. This is a basic concept most people can't grasp. It goes against human nature to see the world as it is and not what it should be (or what you think it should be).
> 
> I haven't really given up on people and do often make attempts to educate them if the opportunity to do it arises or I just feel so inclined, but I am realistic about how impossible it is to change the big picture and am generally at peace with it. Trying to fix stupid people is a bit like getting furious and frustrated and running around all day every day searching for Cane Toads and squeezing the life out of each one you find. After a lifetime you'd have made no impact on the toads and simply have ruined your life by wasting it on an unpleasant task which achieved nothing. I suppose my trying to educate people now is a little like running over a toad if I only have to slightly swerve for it, but knowing it won't change anything. That saying along the lines of 'learn to change what you can, ignore what you can't, and recognise the difference' comes to mind, even if the wording doesn't



Woah... You literally took the words (almost) right off my trusty old bookmark. I get what you're saying, I guess I just need to put it into practice.


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## Sdaji (Nov 14, 2018)

Yeah, that's the quote. I can see why the message stuck in my head but not the crap about god, serenity and courage. Wisdom makes sense though (for all of it), and the result (rather than requirement) is a greater feeling of serenity. Other than the flaws, it's a very good message.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 14, 2018)

Hehe so back to the original topic... good old Gumtree... heck yeah!! Where's my wallet?! Murray's now come in a "long-neck" option apparently (takes a breath and counts to 1000) and only $200. That's a steal!


Please view this ad:

Turtles for sale,
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/crai...ampaign=socialbuttons&utm_content=app_android

Price: $200 Negotiable


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## Sdaji (Nov 14, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hehe so back to the original topic... good old Gumtree... heck yeah!! Where's my wallet?! Murray's now come in a "long-neck" option apparently (takes a breath and counts to 1000) and only $200. That's a steal!
> 
> 
> Please view this ad:
> ...



Heh heh heh! 

If searching for examples of stupidity online is your thing, you will never, ever, ever be disappointed.


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