# Show off your Co-dominant morphs



## impulse reptiles (Aug 7, 2010)

Official ''Reduced Pattern Morelia/morph'' thread....
Show off your Co-dominant morphs right here 

anyone breeding this season? 8)


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## byron_moses (Aug 7, 2010)

here is my little one


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## driftoz (Aug 8, 2010)

byron_moses said:


> here is my little one


 that looks awsome love the star look pattern on his head


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## gosia (Aug 8, 2010)

_*cool good*_[Q


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## Elite_Reptiles (Aug 8, 2010)

byron_moses said:


> here is my little one


 
Nice one mate. That head pattern is a definite keeper and when the remaining two or so saddles break apart, he's gonna be a real nice looking snake.

I believe you have a pic of one of her older siblings too, would love to see a pic?


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 8, 2010)

Funny gunny ,what makes that the official term? Using the word morelia just makes it more clear for everyone on the forum. Cheers mate.


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## gunny (Aug 8, 2010)

Why dont you ask SXR as thats where the term has come from and what they are sold as.


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## turtle (Aug 8, 2010)

Nice Jag Byron moses


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## byron_moses (Aug 8, 2010)

thanks turtle i see so many people have comments in a thread about rpm's but no one seems to have any lol. thanks for the comment wayne ill try dig up some other pics


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 8, 2010)

Some of ours next to a nice jungle:





















Tiger RPM:


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## Minka (Aug 8, 2010)

...


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## mojo73 (Aug 9, 2010)




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## mungus (Aug 9, 2010)

mojo73 said:


>



Looks gravid.....?
like some of her bub's


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## James_Scott (Aug 9, 2010)

Mojo73, 
that is the most amazing python I have seen. Let me know when you have offspring.


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## Dallas (Aug 9, 2010)

Ditto for me Mojo73!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 9, 2010)

Two different snakes there mojo. Very nice. Very distinct head patterns


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## Colin (Aug 9, 2010)

mungus, james_scott and dallas > mojo is in the UK and not in Australia.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Aug 9, 2010)

wow, nice work guys


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 9, 2010)

Carpetpythons.com,

They are the first pics I have seen of any of the offspring I produced last season. Nobody sends me pics to let me know how they are going. Starting to show some good colour considering they are only 9 months old. Thanks for sharing.....

I will take some new pics of the CARAMEL holdbacks and some of the other RPM/JAGs and post up ASAP.....


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## James_Scott (Aug 9, 2010)

Looks like I'm still gonna have to wait until our aussie jags catch up then. By the look of things it won't be too long. Good work guys!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 9, 2010)

This pair should throw some quality offspring......


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 9, 2010)

Here is a pic of the TIGER RPM/JAG posted by Carpetpythons.com after its first shed. Goes to show how much these will colour up and intensify with age. Sorry about the really small size, pic was taken in January and was before I learnt how to re-size pics....


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## AM Pythons (Aug 9, 2010)

those tiger RPM are amazing CP.com


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## AM Pythons (Aug 9, 2010)

jungle rp


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## Retic (Aug 9, 2010)

It's almost as if they have the same genes 



James_Scott said:


> Looks like I'm still gonna have to wait until our aussie jags catch up then. By the look of things it won't be too long. Good work guys!


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## Kristy_07 (Aug 9, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> View attachment 158402
> 
> 
> Here is a pic of the TIGER RPM/JAG posted by Carpetpythons.com after its first shed. Goes to show how much these will colour up and intensify with age. Sorry about the really small size, pic was taken in January and was before I learnt how to re-size pics....


 
Well done, Barra  really impressive.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 9, 2010)

Can't say that I have seen snakes that are more aggresive than these things. They are taking rabbits and rats and there is just no stopping them when it comes to feeding. The jungle in the photos for comparison is a 20 month old.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 9, 2010)

I found the same thing when attempting feeding for the first feed. With all the rumours of weakness's and so on, I was expecting a lot of trouble feeders. Every RPM/JAG juvenile fed first attempt on frozen/thawed fuzzy mice and never looked back after that, happily swapping between rats and mice whenever offered. 

From all reports all are growing strongly with no signs of weakness.....

Thanks for the pics, its great to see their progression.......


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 9, 2010)

This pic is also a bit old now and probably has already been seen by most, however pretty significant none the less as the female ALBINO is now gravid and the RPM/JAG male in the photo is a 100% het. 

So all going well in regards to fertile eggs, incubation and genetic ratios we are not too far away from an ALBINO RPM/JAG.......


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## Retic (Aug 9, 2010)

OMG, think of the children  Well done mate, having seen the results on another forum they look spectacular.


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## mojo73 (Aug 9, 2010)

James_Scott said:


> Looks like I'm still gonna have to wait until our aussie jags catch up then. By the look of things it won't be too long. Good work guys!



If you start running high percentage cross diamond/jungles into your RPM's you will start of get the high intense yellows.


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## byron_moses (Aug 9, 2010)

looking good barra cant wait to see the update on the caramels


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## evozz (Aug 9, 2010)

hate to sound like an idiot, but i see the term "100% het" all the time..what does that mean?


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## Colin (Aug 10, 2010)

great looking pythons everyone  congrats barra.. best of luck mate


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

mojo73 said:


> If you start running high percentage cross diamond/jungles into your RPM's you will start of get the high intense yellows.


 
Mojo,
why do you think this?

IMO the 75% and 88% Jungle Jags are just as intense.

Cracker animals by the way.......


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## bulionz (Aug 10, 2010)

i havnt really looked into but i believe it means if you have a 100% het and breed it to another 100% het u will get albinos with 100% chance like all the babies will be albinos ..

or if you breed to another albino u will get albino hatchies or something like that any way i dont have hets or albino's so i havnt looked into it....


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## thals (Aug 10, 2010)

A few of my rp jungle boy...


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

Thats awesome thals, 

absolute cracker......


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## Ozzie Python (Aug 10, 2010)

some very nice rp's people, didn't know so many were about...


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## shaye (Aug 10, 2010)

Hey cp.com what does one of then rps go for roughly ?if u don't mind me asking 
Like the one in your pic where ur showing comparison with the jungle.


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 10, 2010)

fluffie - alot of reptiles in this hobby came from snakes that weren't legitimately put on license...why pick on the jags? do you have a problem with the most of the other animals on license because they came from animals that were not legitimately wild caught and illegally snuck on license? 

how do you know that the animals didn't originate from Australia? ,do you have any proof that they were smuggled?


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## Ozzie Python (Aug 10, 2010)

fluffieherper said:


> [deleted]



sorry, i should have explained more, i am well aware of the numbers, however we are just starting to see the amount of variety around (publically anyway). I don't know anyone with jags so yes i am a bit uneducated with what is available here at the moment.

With the lines over here that we can add into jags there certainly should be some crackers produced in the future. i know i can't wait to get my hands on some.


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## Colin (Aug 10, 2010)

Lets not turn this thread into the usual arguments or it will go.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

Old pics, but great examples of what can be done with these genetics. Cant wait till the CARAMELS are mature enough to breed......

The Jungle RPM/JAG is only a 50% cross, I am hoping for a successful breeding from this animal and my Striped Palmerston male (pictured earlier in this thread), as said this pairing will throw intense YELLOW TIGER offspring. 

The WHITE animal pictured is the father to the RPM/JAGS posted by carpetpythons.com and also the father to the CARAMELS pictured......


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## vinny86 (Aug 10, 2010)

Cant wait either Barra......mmmm supers!


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## Ozzie Python (Aug 10, 2010)

id be interested to know what you have all crossed with to get your results. guessing there is a lot of jungle influence, has anyone tried mixing in md or coastal etc with a rpm?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

Ozzie

The WHITE animal pictured is a 50% md/coastal.

The YELLOW animal was produced from a 100% Coastal RPM/JAG over a Jungle, therefore a 50% Jungle RPM/JAG.


Vinny86

I have paired CARAMEL to CARAMEL this season, however only normals no RPM/JAG genetics involved. Super CARAMEL RPM/JAGS next season....


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## evozz (Aug 10, 2010)

These are amazing..i wish i could get one! Haha


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## vinny86 (Aug 10, 2010)

Cant wait!!!! few interesting seasons ahead!


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## evozz (Aug 10, 2010)

Colin said:


> great looking pythons everyone  congrats barra.. best of luck mate


 
Oh and thank you for the info Colin, i understand it a whole lot more now!


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## CodeRed (Aug 10, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Ozzie
> 
> The WHITE animal pictured is a 50% md/coastal.
> 
> ...



This whole super caramel thing has me confused. From what Ive read on US forums you cant reliably tell the difference between super-caramel (homozygous) and caramels (heterozygous) animals from the same clutch. The only reliable indicator is to breed it with a wild type and see how many caramels pop up. People are so confused as to label the best animals from a caramel x caramel pairing a possible super-caramels since they are not quite sure. This just seems like blind hope instead of fact.

To me the (controversial) answer is staring us in the face. The trait is dominant not co-dominant i.e. the heterozygous and homozygous animals look the same. This means there is no super form. 

Flame away ....


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## Colin (Aug 10, 2010)

evozz said:


> Oh and thank you for the info Colin, i understand it a whole lot more now!



the genetics info? no probs


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> This whole super caramel thing has me confused. From what Ive read on US forums you cant reliably tell the difference between super-caramel (homozygous) and caramels (heterozygous) animals from the same clutch. The only reliable indicator is to breed it with a wild type and see how many caramels pop up. People are so confused as to label the best animals from a caramel x caramel pairing a possible super-caramels since they are not quite sure. This just seems like blind hope instead of fact.
> 
> To me the (controversial) answer is staring us in the face. The trait is dominant not co-dominant i.e. the heterozygous and homozygous animals look the same. This means there is no super form.
> 
> Flame away ....


 
No flaming here, I definately see your point and even agree with it. Basically like you said, there is little visual difference, but as you said the quantity of CARAMELS produced does increase which is a desirable trait. However its still early days and CARAMELS certainly change dramatically as they mature and we may see a more conclusive visual difference in the near future.


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## Camo (Aug 10, 2010)

One of my males. He just had a shed.












Cant wait to see what we can produce in the future.

Cameron


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

Thats stunning Camo, 

puts the shizzle on my wizzle......


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## evozz (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm very new to all of this so please excuse me if this is a stupid question...but are there Black & White Jungle RPMs?


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## Camo (Aug 10, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Thats stunning Camo,
> 
> puts the shizzle on my wizzle......


Yeah he does that to me as well :lol:


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## ShaunMorelia (Aug 10, 2010)

How long have you had him for camo?
He looks very clean.


PM sent.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

evozz said:


> I'm very new to all of this so please excuse me if this is a stupid question...but are there Black & White Jungle RPMs?


 

Here is a pic of offspring I produced from the WHITE male (posted earlier by me) and a Julatten female, also the one posted earlier by carpetpythons.com with the the narrow black stripe down its back is from the same pairing.....


View attachment 158521


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## Camo (Aug 10, 2010)

The_S_Word said:


> How long have you had him for camo?
> He looks very clean.
> 
> 
> PM sent.


About a year or so. Yeah he has a super clean pattern on him. There is a blueish tinge on his yellow/cream as well.


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## Camo (Aug 10, 2010)

The Picture did not work for me Barra.


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## Jay84 (Aug 10, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI you have some amazing animals there...... VERY jealous!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

sorry guys, here it is again,

as said the father is the WHITE animal pictured earlier, mother is a Black and White Julatten. Its also a sibling to the one with the narrow black stripe posted by carpetpythons.com


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## Jay84 (Aug 10, 2010)

Will you be selling any offspring this season Barramundi?

Do you have any idea of the prices you will be asking? I know this kind of question usually ends up in a **poo** fight,

but seeing as you are the only person i am aware of publicly announcing they are breeding them i thought id ask.

Thanks


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 10, 2010)

I hate this thread!!!!!!!!......... ONLY because I cant throw in a couple of pics....one day I guess...lol

STUNNING animals everyone!!!!!!!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 10, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> Will you be selling any offspring this season Barramundi?
> 
> Do you have any idea of the prices you will be asking? I know this kind of question usually ends up in a **poo** fight,
> 
> ...


 
Hi Jay
yeah this season is shaping up pretty well with a couple of females looking the goods already, I wont be breeding too many clutch's as I am going for quality not quantity. I will be offering animals for sale. The prices vary on the quality of animal offered, if you are genuinely interested send me a pm and I will add you to the contacts and send you out my periodic updates........


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## Camo (Aug 10, 2010)

Exciting times ahead thats for sure.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Aug 10, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> View attachment 158511
> 
> 
> The WHITE animal pictured is the father to the RPM/JAGS posted by carpetpythons.com and also the father to the CARAMELS pictured......


 
Hey Barra, good to finally meet you on the weekend mate.

I have attached a pic from your post back on pg.4 above, is there any chance you have a larger image of this particular animal, cause mate I would love to get a close up if you don't mind? He is something special that one!

Cheers.


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## Anto11 (Aug 10, 2010)




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## Elite_Reptiles (Aug 10, 2010)

Nice Anto11, would I be right in saying that first pic is a Stone animal?


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## Anto11 (Aug 10, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Nice Anto11, would I be right in saying that first pic is a Stone animal?


 
Yep both are from Stone.

Cheers Anto


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 11, 2010)

heres my coastal jag girl.a few would have seen her on display at the goldcoast expo .she wasn't the the most outragingly spectacular one on offer when i bought her but i was chasing one that sort of resembled the original founding jag and start with a" clean slate" as such.i also bought a girl because i have 2 really nice boys ,a proserpine and my oddly ,striped coastal,that i want to put with her in the future.i had one of the boys at the expo but the prossie was at home shedding so he missed the tripbut i'll put up some photos.
cheers
simon


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## byron_moses (Aug 11, 2010)

love that hypo slimebo


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 11, 2010)

_Slimebo:"i was chasing one that sort of resembled the original founding jag and start with a" clean slate" as such."_

I dont think anybody will be able to say what their Jaguars or RPM's genetic make up consists of. I think a lot will be sold as Jungle Jag like, Julatten jag like etc.


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 11, 2010)

i agree.but what i was trying to say is that i was looking for that original type jag pattern then work with it from there.i bought it as a coastal jag and everyone knows what the laws are like up here ,so i'll try to stay as legal as possible to try to cover my own backside and only put coastals over her.


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## Nighthawk (Aug 11, 2010)

James_Scott said:


> Mojo73,
> that is the most amazing python I have seen. Let me know when you have offspring.



I'll 3rd that Mojo! 0.o


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## Nighthawk (Aug 11, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> View attachment 158513
> View attachment 158511
> View attachment 158510
> View attachment 158512
> ...



Caramels..... WANT! They. Are. Gorgeous!


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## krefft (Aug 11, 2010)

Here are a few of mine


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 11, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i agree.but what i was trying to say is that i was looking for that original type jag pattern then work with it from there.i bought it as a coastal jag and everyone knows what the laws are like up here ,so i'll try to stay as legal as possible to try to cover my own backside and only put coastals over her.



Point taken.I have never been a fan of the typical Coasta Jag/RPM phenotype. They really seem to outgrow their colour and contrast as they get older. 
I found a link from the Queesnland conservation authority that makes it clear that mutations are not allowed to be bred up north.

http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/register/p01386aa.pdf


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 11, 2010)

That first one is a cracker Kreftty!


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 11, 2010)

i love him to.one of my favourites in my collection.very friendly and heaps of personality as well.he is more like a dog than a python.good to finally meet you at the expo as well.was hoping to catch up with barra and some others,but to be honest,i dont know who i would have been looking for.to those who came up and said gday,it was good to put a face to a name and i would haved liked to chat some more,but it was a pretty hectic day.
cheers
simon


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 11, 2010)

Nice to see all of these animals come out of the dark deep dungeons of Australian herpetoculturists!!!


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 11, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Point taken.I have never been a fan of the typical Coasta Jag/RPM phenotype. They really seem to outgrow their colour and contrast as they get older.
> I found a link from the Queesnland conservation authority that makes it clear that mutations are not allowed to be bred up north.
> 
> http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/register/p01386aa.pdf


 
we have had many meetings with the EPA up here when organising the queensland reptile expo and when we bought up the subject up they have stated it was more to do with physical mutations than colour mutations.they stated that as different colour mutations occured in the wild it would be difficult to legally take things further and in "KR's" own words said "we have bigger issues to deal with than people breeding pretty snakes".
we also brought up cross breeding and whether it was between species or subspecies and what about intergrade zones between species this just confused them .they said unless it was 2 completely different species it would be very hard to prove and again stated that " they have bigger issues to deal with".
i have a feeling it may all change in the near future in qld and they will soon realise it is an established pet trade and the laws will end up like the bird pet trade.cheers
simon


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## Elite_Reptiles (Aug 11, 2010)

So many damn nice snakes on here, I don't know who to say congrats too. There all exceptional snakes, but krefft's first pic really caught my eye....are you breeding this particular snake this season krefft?


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## jahan (Aug 11, 2010)

Nice animals everyone, and I agree CP.com it is good to see some animals coming out of the woods...


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## Perko (Aug 11, 2010)

Ditto, i just wish i could join in on this great thread, soon maybe.



jahan said:


> Nice animals everyone, and I agree CP.com it is good to see some animals coming out of the woods...


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 11, 2010)

Jungleman

Was speaking to Krefft last night and he said he has had a couple of good matings but still early days.

In regards to the WHITE animal, I have looked through my files and thats the only pic I currently have. Although the pic was taken by The Devil and he may have the same image on his pc but a bit larger. I will give him a call and see if he can either post it up or email it through.

Thanks for the good comments guys......and good to see people finally posting pics. I remember when I first posted pics 2 years ago, how times have changed....


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 11, 2010)

Jungleman

A larger version of that pic has just been posted in another thread....

If anyone is computer savvy, can they transfer it onto this thread to keep it rolling.....


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## shortstuff61 (Aug 11, 2010)

So much eye candy.


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## No-two (Aug 11, 2010)

Here you are Barra. Cracking animal.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 11, 2010)

,


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## Kyro (Aug 11, 2010)

fingers crossed


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 11, 2010)

Who said inlands were dark dull snakes? They would make cracker albinos with that colour pallet.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 11, 2010)

Maybe the WHITE male could be considered axanthic, any opinions????


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## evozz (Aug 11, 2010)

I would LOVE to have one of those white RPMs *drools*


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## The Devil (Aug 11, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Maybe the WHITE male could be considered axanthic, any opinions????



WHAT ARE you doing, trying to confuse the situation even more.......


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## byron_moses (Aug 11, 2010)

The Devil said:


> WHAT ARE you doing, trying to confuse the situation even more.......


 lol


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## The Devil (Aug 11, 2010)

These 2 have been going at it night and day so fingers crossed......


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 11, 2010)

Devil,

You old fellas and these new terms, its like me with computers,

The 2 dont mix......

Nice pairing you have, the offspring should have solid clean markings.....


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## ezekiel86 (Aug 11, 2010)

Some very nice pythons on here guys...top work !

If anyone has any nice hatchies / yearlings for sales hit me up on a PM lol
Mojo the last photo of her on the floor is crazy..what a stunner !


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## Kenno (Aug 11, 2010)

Nice snakes everyone, some true crackers amongst them. Barra's white male is a ripper but let's not get true genetic axanthics confused with nice black/grey/white snakes. 

Cheers


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 11, 2010)

So in your opinion this cant be an axanthic????

BTW I am not saying that it is, but it is as White and Black as any of our snakes get........


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## Khagan (Aug 11, 2010)

Barra has like.. Some subliminal marketing going on or something =p.. I read the posts and just seem to hear in my head "...... CARAMEL!...... CARAMEL!......WHITE!.....".


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## HOM3L3SS (Aug 11, 2010)

ohhh the future for RPM/JAGs in australia is looking really really good ... i just wish i had one


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## smegalreptileboy (Aug 11, 2010)

Nice snakes love them all just wondering what subspecies arr rpm's bread out of e,g, coastal x jungle. 


Thanks Cameron.


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## Kenno (Aug 11, 2010)

Correct Barra, it is not an axanthic. Just as Julattens are not, nor are Murray Darlings. They may be very grey/black/white in appearence but they are not a genetic axanthic. These are a proven recessive trait that originated in Europe. It is believed some promising looking coastals have been hatched here in Australia but these are yet to be proven out. Axanthics are no different to albinos in their mode of inheritence. Recessive morph with non-visual hets. The odds of that particular white Jag male being axanthic are roughly the same as hatching a spontanious albino. Never the less it's a great looking snake.*

Just on Codered's previous comments on the caramels, the overseas line has this year been proven co-dom with a visual super form. Although they do look similar to the plain caramels and as individual hatchling variation does play a factor the bigger breeders have prefered to not label them "supers" until they were proven so by breeding to a wildtype and producing all caramel offspring. The domestic line founded by Stone has so far shown similar modes of inheritence. The notion that either line are a dominant mutation is wrong.

Cheers * * *


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 11, 2010)

Here are some photos of alleged Axanthics out of a collection in Germany.
You decide what these axanthics look like? Wich ones are inland, wich ones are coastal and wich ones are Axanthic?


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## Jay84 (Aug 11, 2010)

Has anyone bred a Jag with a Bredli yet? Any pics?


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## Camo (Aug 11, 2010)

Great morphs people. Cant wait to see whats produced this season.


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## CodeRed (Aug 11, 2010)

Kenno said:


> Correct Barra, it is not an axanthic. Just as Julattens are not, nor are Murray Darlings. They may be very grey/black/white in appearence but they are not a genetic axanthic. These are a proven recessive trait that originated in Europe. It is believed some promising looking coastals have been hatched here in Australia but these are yet to be proven out. Axanthics are no different to albinos in their mode of inheritence. Recessive morph with non-visual hets. The odds of that particular white Jag male being axanthic are roughly the same as hatching a spontanious albino. Never the less it's a great looking snake.*
> 
> Just on Codered's previous comments on the caramels, the overseas line has this year been proven co-dom with a visual super form. Although they do look similar to the plain caramels and as individual hatchling variation does play a factor the bigger breeders have prefered to not label them "supers" until they were proven so by breeding to a wildtype and producing all caramel offspring. The domestic line founded by Stone has so far shown similar modes of inheritence. The notion that either line are a dominant mutation is wrong.
> 
> Cheers * * *



Hey Kenno 

What you state is exactly why they should be labeled as dominant not co-dominant. If you cant separate the homozygous and heterozygous forms visually then they are by definition dominant. There are cases where the best lookers from a clutch of caramel x caramel have proved to be homozygous (through breeding tests) but it is by no means definitive. That's why its best to play it safe until more have been breed. Hopefully in time someone will find a visual cue that allows the homozygous and heterozygous forms to be separated and only then can it be called co-dom.


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## mungus (Aug 11, 2010)

if anyone has a spare one....let me know.


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## ihaveherps (Aug 11, 2010)

Im with Codered on the Caramels.... the term "super" lends itself to there being a homozygous co-dominant phenotype that is different to the het. From what I have read from Paul, he had a hunch that his was homo, but couldnt varify until breeding.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 11, 2010)

Valid points, codered and ihaveherps.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Aug 11, 2010)

No-two said:


> Here you are Barra. Cracking animal.


 

Thanks both to Barra and No-two for posting up a larger version of the white jag....

WOW...what a pearler!!!!!

After I managed to peel my eyes away from that white stallion, I read on about the axanthic debate, I don't wish to get involved to deeply as my knowledge on these guys are very limited, but one thing I would like cleared up....is it correct in saying that true axantrics obtain only silver eyes?

Thanks again guys, this thread just keeps getting better.


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## ihaveherps (Aug 11, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> is it correct in saying that true axantrics obtain only silver eyes?


 
Not necessarily, axanthic means lacking yellow, though the iridophores are still able to help produce diluted browns and such, the international axanthic carpets show browning with age.... on a side note, even if sliver eyes was an indicator, it wouldnt help in determining an axanthic Jag, as a characteristic of a Jag is silver eyes, which is also commonly used in Europe and America to tell low rate Jags from siblings, obviously when other markers arent as distinct.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 12, 2010)

Kenno said:


> Correct Barra, it is not an axanthic. Just as Julattens are not, nor are Murray Darlings. They may be very grey/black/white in appearence but they are not a genetic axanthic. These are a proven recessive trait that originated in Europe. It is believed some promising looking coastals have been hatched here in Australia but these are yet to be proven out. Axanthics are no different to albinos in their mode of inheritence. Recessive morph with non-visual hets. The odds of that particular white Jag male being axanthic are roughly the same as hatching a spontanious albino. Never the less it's a great looking snake.*
> 
> Just on Codered's previous comments on the caramels, the overseas line has this year been proven co-dom with a visual super form. Although they do look similar to the plain caramels and as individual hatchling variation does play a factor the bigger breeders have prefered to not label them "supers" until they were proven so by breeding to a wildtype and producing all caramel offspring. The domestic line founded by Stone has so far shown similar modes of inheritence. The notion that either line are a dominant mutation is wrong.
> 
> Cheers * * *


 
cheers BIG MAAAANNN


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## Jay84 (Aug 12, 2010)

Have you been breeding JAG x JAG ? What have these breedings produced?


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## kupper (Aug 12, 2010)

I was also about to ask this question thanks jay


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## byron_moses (Aug 12, 2010)

lol they r called super jags and is very risky due to survival rate of hatchies


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 12, 2010)

No I havnt tried yet, but I will. My only females big enough to breed are the 50% Jungles and I am more interested in getting 75% out first. I will probably have a crack next season......


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## kupper (Aug 12, 2010)

I think an outcome thread would be great barra even if it is a year away.


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## Jay84 (Aug 12, 2010)

I was just reading an article by the person to first breed a Jag, it states the only hatchling not to survive
were the leucistic morph who all either died in the egg or a few hours from hatching. The breeder did report
further Jag morphs arising from this breeding....... exciting times ahead~!


----------



## Camo (Aug 12, 2010)

Yes that article is a good read. 

Just straight out Axanthic to Albino Darwins make for an interesting combo down the track with the potential for SNOW and things like that.


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## Kenno (Aug 12, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Here are some photos of alleged Axanthics out of a collection in Germany.
> You decide what these axanthics look like? Wich ones are inland, wich ones are coastal and wich ones are Axanthic?


 
Ill give it a crack at your little guessing game,
the first two are EU line axanthics.
Third photo is Barramundi’s notorious WHITE male
Fourth photo is an Axanthic jag
Fifth pic is a normal Axanthic coastal
Then the last three photo’s are carpet crosses of some type.
Axanthics are not named as such because they have less yellow/red pigments than any other carpet variety, heck some Julattens are the best example of an all grey snake I’ve seen. However when outcrossed these subspecies’ colour traits are not passed on in any type of consistent manner. They tend to look like exactly what they are, mixed locality carpets, unlike the true Axanthics that pass on their genetics via recessive inheritance. 
True genetic Axanthics have non-visual hets and can be combined with other morphs to produce definite outcomes, the mixed crosses do not. By definition a Snow is a visual Axanthic and Albino represented in one animal. You may be able to cross Julattens, Murrays and Diamonds into pure albino stock to create darker or greyer than average hets in the hope they will produce somewhat “whiter” albino’s but the look of this animal will be very difficult to pass on genetically. Given the natural variation in Darwins already it seems like a very pointless and long undertaking, why not just buy a high white pure Darwin albino to start with? 

Cheers


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 13, 2010)

The first two are axanthic and those last hatchling pictures are actually axanthics! They will only know for sure that those animals are true axanthics when they put them over albinos. See what i mean Kenno? There js no conclusive proof that those snakes are axanthic. They could just be really dark coastals.


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## blakehose (Aug 13, 2010)

Camo said:


> One of my males. He just had a shed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I can't get over this one...


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## Daryl_H (Aug 13, 2010)

these are awsome!!!!! well ive focused on the wrong lines for a year or 2 now lol


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## gunny (Aug 13, 2010)

Axanthic means there is a complete lack of visible xanthophores ( No yellow pigment at all) not reduced yellow. It is recessive. Alot of sites have so called proven Axanthic jungles but in they're statements to prove it they state that they are just reduced yellow which is not axanthic. There is an australian company selling hypo coastals as caramels for $200 each as they state that caramels are just another name for hypos (not the co-dominate morph). So be wary of where your buying these so called morphs from as you may be working with a line based on genetics that arnt there.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 13, 2010)

Spot on Gunny, it doesnt 100% mean anything until its proven out. But that still doesnt mean that these potentially aren't AXANTHICS..... 

As Kenno said, we cant really claim any true AXANTHICS until someone does the hard work on their MD'S, COASTALS or any other carpets that show similar characteristics. In the mean time they are Black and White carpets, once/if proven successfully then they are AXANTHIC carpets......


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## gunny (Aug 13, 2010)

Yeah i wasnt having a go at yours or any of the photos put up they may well be axanthic but like you say they have to be proven.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 13, 2010)

all good mate I was agreeing with you........


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## mrs_davo (Aug 13, 2010)

Hi guys & girls,
Very nice snakes being produced & brought out of the closets now. I really think that this is where the future lies for the reptile trade in Australia.
I have had the opportunity to buy RPM coastals in the recent past but passed it up as we did not have a lazy 2 to 3 grand to buy,more is the pitty.
I love the reduced or changed colors/patterns that people are breeding today. My concentration more recently has been towards BHP'S which can also cost a lot of money to get into different color forms.
What I hope dosn't happen, is that breeders get carried away with colors & patterns & forget the size & reproduction of the animals.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for experimenting,I am doing that now with my line of hypo coastals & would love to have a nice RPM to cross over them,
but let us do it responsibly.
Minka & Camo very nice snakes, if you have some for sale eventualy please let me know.


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## Camo (Aug 14, 2010)

blakehose said:


> I can't get over this one...


Thanks mate. I think he is nice. Getting better at handling as well.


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## Jungle_Freak (Aug 14, 2010)

Hot looking RPM everyone .
Camo thats one extreemly nice RPM .
I can now see the tip of the morph iceburg and i like what i see .
cheers
Roger


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## Camo (Aug 14, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Hot looking RPM everyone .
> Camo thats one extreemly nice RPM .
> I can now see the tip of the morph iceburg and i like what i see .
> cheers
> Roger


Cheers Roger.


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## Retic (Aug 14, 2010)

My honest feeling is that this snake is a true axanthic, of course that has to be proven but I am hopeful.







BARRAMUNDI said:


> Spot on Gunny, it doesnt 100% mean anything until its proven out. But that still doesnt mean that these potentially aren't AXANTHICS.....
> 
> As Kenno said, we cant really claim any true AXANTHICS until someone does the hard work on their MD'S, COASTALS or any other carpets that show similar characteristics. In the mean time they are Black and White carpets, once/if proven successfully then they are AXANTHIC carpets......


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## Camo (Aug 14, 2010)

Looks great Boa. I have a similar juvenile that has the same colouration as came from an adult Axanthic looking very similar to yours.

Of course it is not proven yet but there is always hope.


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## Retic (Aug 14, 2010)

I would love to see a photo.
This one came from very 'normal' looking parents but they produced a couple of oddities each season apparently.


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## Kenno (Aug 14, 2010)

Ash, you know I have always been partial to that little guy, seems like it has coloured up well with age. 

Cheers


----------



## Retic (Aug 14, 2010)

LOL. Yes he has coloured up well and is still showing very little colour, just what I think of as a light wash of yellowish brown across it's back. 



Kenno said:


> Ash, you know I have always been partial to that little guy, seems like it has coloured up well with age.
> 
> Cheers


----------



## PimmsPythons (Aug 14, 2010)

at first i thought this darwin het was going to turn out as a hypo as it was losing black with each shed but it has stayed grey in colour so i'm starting to think i may have a axanthic darwin on my hands but i'm not sure as yet.we'll see what the future brings and may produce some interesting bubs when the albino father goes back over her.
cheers
simon


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## byron_moses (Aug 14, 2010)

definately different mate


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## TrueBlue (Aug 14, 2010)

100% pure coastal.


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## Greenmad (Aug 14, 2010)

They are crazy rob nice work


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## yommy (Aug 14, 2010)

TrueBlue said:


> 100% pure coastal.


 
  

Nice...............


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## Jason (Aug 15, 2010)

slimebo said:


> at first i thought this darwin het was going to turn out as a hypo as it was losing black with each shed but it has stayed grey in colour so i'm starting to think i may have a axanthic darwin on my hands but i'm not sure as yet.we'll see what the future brings and may produce some interesting bubs when the albino father goes back over her.
> cheers
> simon


 
wish i could take him off your hands! im sure he would fit in well her.


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## Camo (Aug 15, 2010)

Wow Rob that is very nice.


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## Camo (Aug 15, 2010)

Thats a crazy looking Darwin you have there Simon. Interesting to see if it holds the same colouration.


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## Camo (Aug 15, 2010)

boa said:


> I would love to see a photo.
> This one came from very 'normal' looking parents but they produced a couple of oddities each season apparently.


Will get onto getting a picture of the adult.


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## Choco (Aug 16, 2010)

So if I've followed this correctly, would this fella be 'considered' Axanthic, but would need to be proven through breeding?

Cheers,
Allan


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 16, 2010)

Jason said:


> wish i could take him off your hands! im sure he would fit in well her.


 
i had her on display at the goldcoast expo and had plenty of interest as well .i definatly wont be parting with her but the parents were put together again to see if another will be produced.if i do get another one and its a male,it will be kept but if it produces another female i will happily move it on.
cheers
simon


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## Jungle_Freak (Aug 16, 2010)

Some really nice carpet pythons guys,
I thought this was a Co dom morph thread ?
As far as i know axanthics are recessive , but need to be proven here in oz ?
A bit of work to be done yet on axanthics .

Hey Rob are you saying your hypos are Co Dom and or reduced pattern ?
What are the clutch ratios when you out cross a hypo to non related ?
Are half the offspring Hypos ?
Or are all your hypo breedings Hypo to Hypo ?

Threads like this are great but diverting into other possible modes or inheritance or morphs that are not Co dom will only confuse the less educated about Co Dom traits .

Perhaps a thread tittled Suspected Axanthic Genetics could be started and everyone post there photos and breeding results and stay on topic and could be a good reference for Axanthic genetics .

Same applies to people with Hypos .
I believe with hypo coastals there is a lot of variation in the amount of melanin inherited and also how the mode of inheritance is passed on which also affects the brightness and colours of coastals.

cheers
Roger


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## TrueBlue (Aug 16, 2010)

Rodger, i only breed hypos with hypos these days, but earlier on when i mated hypos with normals, in a clutch you would get normals, hypos and a few weird looking critters that were sort of a mix of both so i presume that would make it a co dom trait.?


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 16, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Some really nice carpet pythons guys,
> I thought this was a Co dom morph thread ?
> As far as i know axanthics are recessive , but need to be proven here in oz ?
> A bit of work to be done yet on axanthics .
> ...


 
i'm the first to admit mt pair of adult hypo coastals are just average hypos but i have found breeding them the last 2 seasons that about a quarter end up with less melenin than the parents,about a quarter with more and the rest turn out like the parents. they have had alot of variation in the skin pigmentation with some being very light tan,others being dark tan and that one odd one that came out orange.but it will be the last time i breed these two together,i'll see how the holdbacks colour up and try mating them in a few years time.
cheers
simon


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 16, 2010)

slimebo said:


> at first i thought this darwin het was going to turn out as a hypo as it was losing black with each shed but it has stayed grey in colour so i'm starting to think i may have a axanthic darwin on my hands but i'm not sure as yet.we'll see what the future brings and may produce some interesting bubs when the albino father goes back over her.
> cheers
> simon


 
Slimbo - Nice looking snake , but mate their is nothing grey about that animal.


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## D3pro (Aug 16, 2010)

Greg Maxwell had this to say on a similar matter, "_while parents having a desired trait may possess a better chance at producing offspring with that same trait, only a percentage of the offspring will show varying degrees of that trait. *Some bloodlines are definitely more potent than others, and only from seeing past results can you make an intelligent assessment about a particular animal's potential for throwing like offspring.* I would never pay outrageous prices for unchanged babies based solely on the appearance of a parent with no proven past results._"

So it could be that the "hypo" gene varies from blood line to blood line.
Hope this help's!


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## CodeRed (Aug 16, 2010)

Choco said:


> So if I've followed this correctly, would this fella be 'considered' Axanthic, but would need to be proven through breeding?
> 
> Cheers,
> Allan
> View attachment 159397



very interesting looking snake. It definetely has the visual characteristics of an axanthic especially the way the greyish patterned areas are outlined in black


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## Colin (Aug 16, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> very interesting looking snake. It definetely has the visual characteristics of an axanthic especially the way the greyish patterned areas are outlined in black



what would you call this one steve? greyish areas are outlined in black with a half decent white..


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## CodeRed (Aug 16, 2010)

Colin said:


> what would you call this one steve? greyish areas are outlined in black with a half decent white..


OMG thats HOT!!


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## Camo (Aug 16, 2010)

Colin said:


> what would you call this one steve? greyish areas are outlined in black with a half decent white..


I call that one SOLD to Me mate :lol:

Very nice indeed.


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 16, 2010)

fusion said:


> Slimbo - Nice looking snake , but mate their is nothing grey about that animal.


sorry it was an older photo,this is how she is looking these days,hope she is grey enough now.grey is the only way i can describe her.
cheers
simon


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## Colin (Aug 16, 2010)

Im not calling it "axanthic".. just a black and white jungle. cheers


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## yommy (Aug 16, 2010)

Colin said:


> what would you call this one steve? greyish areas are outlined in black with a half decent white..


 
Absolutely stunning colin absolutely stunning


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## rick (Aug 16, 2010)

Cape york carpet


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## PSimmo (Aug 16, 2010)

dammm thats a nice animal rick


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## larks (Aug 17, 2010)

Here's one to get this thread back on the subject of co-dominate morphs.


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## Kenno (Aug 17, 2010)

_Here's one to get this thread back on the subject of co-dominate morph_


Billy Ray Cryus makes a fashionably late entrance!


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## shaye (Aug 17, 2010)

Nice snake u got there larks


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## matt123 (Aug 17, 2010)

hey larks that is one ugly snake why would you even take your time posting a pic of that thing


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## larks (Aug 17, 2010)

No mate it is a hypo/orange pepper jag


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## matt123 (Aug 17, 2010)

haha nah that is a very nice animal you suck showing this stuff making want more stuff haha


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## larks (Aug 17, 2010)

Yes Kenshin you are correct


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## larks (Aug 17, 2010)

matt123 said:


> haha nah that is a very nice animal you suck showing this stuff making want more stuff haha



you know I only posted it to tease you Matt


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## matt123 (Aug 17, 2010)

yea ya prob did you mean old fart lol


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## buck (Aug 17, 2010)

Colin said:


> what would you call this one steve? greyish areas are outlined in black with a half decent white..


 
Am I the only person who can't see the pic???:?


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## Khagan (Aug 17, 2010)

buck said:


> Am I the only person who can't see the pic???:?


 
Nope, i can't either.. I refreshed the page like 5 times getting frustrated thinking it wasn't loading the pic lol.


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## Jay84 (Aug 17, 2010)

I cant see it either


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## Jay84 (Aug 17, 2010)

Just checked on iPhone and can see bit pics. VERY nice, so much room to move with morphs now. Larks that snake is gorgeous.


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## rick (Aug 17, 2010)

Yah sorry guys got a bit side track here is a male hooked up with one of my Jungles fingers crossed.


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 17, 2010)

Far out rick that B&W is Fing hot!!! and the above pic looks promising too huh?? Again hot animals mate, you need to post more...lol


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## rick (Aug 17, 2010)

Looking good thread in Aust snakes you might find some pics there mate 
regards Rick


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 17, 2010)

No probs...rick...Here's a couple of pairs of mine for this season...
1st pic Rogers RP Jungles, 2nd the controversial "hypo" jungle male as a hatchy, 3rd pic as he is now and 4th his partner this year an Axanthic female jungle which is definitely Axanthic and now looking gravid... hypo-axanthic bubs...lol not sure, what do you guys think???


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## andyh (Aug 17, 2010)

thats one hot jag larks.... I want!!!


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## byron_moses (Aug 17, 2010)

nice rpm larks


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 17, 2010)

Kenno said:


> _Here's one to get this thread back on the subject of co-dominate morph_
> 
> 
> Billy Ray Cryus makes a fashionably late entrance!


 But Miley's cute.... 
Nice animal Wayne...

_*"No mate it is a hypo/orange pepper jag"*_
Love it!!! lol Similar to my "hypo" jungle...


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## aspidito (Aug 18, 2010)

larks said:


> Here's one to get this thread back on the subject of co-dominate morphs.
> 
> Looking good Wayne, here's mine latched onto the female MDxJag, keeping fingers crossed for this outcome


----------



## Southside Morelia (Aug 18, 2010)

My post was a piss take..with the second lot of pics, but i'm sure the jungles are co-dom morphs! Cant wait to see as the girl is about to pre-lay shed.....


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 18, 2010)

Nice one aspidito  its good to see an Rpm x Rpm mateing this season.


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## larks (Aug 18, 2010)

Thats awesome Paul, hope all goes well for you mate.


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 18, 2010)

Agreed, looking good with that pairing aspidito! 
keep us all informed!


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## Jay84 (Aug 18, 2010)

Question..... are there any cases of neuro problems in our Australian Jags?


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## ihaveherps (Aug 19, 2010)

Wonder if honesty and truth will survive .....

Jay seeing as internationally it is now widely accepted that they all have neuro conditions to some degree, and the undeniable origins of the trait here, you would have to assume that they do. 

A wise man once said that the past is the best indicator for the future, or something along those lines.... my bet will be that the case will be the same here as it was in the past. At first when the issue was publically raised internationally, US forums for example, there was a great deal of resistance when a keeper finally broke the code of silence and brought the issue to the general publics attention. People who had invested in the morph on the majority, denied the initial claims as one off's and not consistant across the board, which from what I understand is a half truth, as now it is consensus that they all display a neuro tick, though the degree varies. Admittedly, the "tick" in most cases is barely noticable from all accounts, though of course there are the extreme examples as well. At its worst the animals corkscrew, and rock as if they dont posess complete motor function, though more often than not, it is only triggered when excited, stimulus such as food and/or handling, and from what I understand, the average display of the tick, the very minor cases, it can be barely noticable, unless of course you are looking for it.

Before the barrage of replies consisting of "but it could be because of their limited gene pool" and such, there are other documented cases of colour mutations effecting brain function. Unfortunately, I dont have a link to the reference material, nor can I be bothered to look for it, though the paper I am referring to was about the correlation of melanin in the brain and temperament, something I stumbled across while looking into why my Darwin seems to be on valium. Not as solid as a scientific paper, though Brian Barczyk has also noted a similar observation in one of his episodes of snakebytes tv.

All in all, the genetic design for every aspect of any living thing, every intricacy and idiosincracy, is contained in a relatively short code, DNA. For keepers, it is good fortune that the gene lends itself to what some consider aesthetically pleasing specimens. Unfortunately, this gift seems to come with a downside, and the allele the gene is on has bearing on motor function, however minor it may be.


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## mojo73 (Aug 19, 2010)

Possible co-dom trait in my bredli. The reduced pattern and partial dorsal striping is present in the mother and also the grandfather (who is owned by someone else) and gets passed on to about 25% of the offspring when mated to unrelated bredli lines. In a few years time I hope to mate this male holdback with the mother and to see what the outcome may be.


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## Kenno (Aug 19, 2010)

mojo73,

I suggest you recheck your incubator temps,

looks nice though

cheers


----------



## mojo73 (Aug 19, 2010)

Kenno said:


> mojo73,
> 
> I suggest you recheck your incubator temps,
> 
> ...


 
How would that explain the markings of both mother and grandfather?


----------



## Jay84 (Aug 19, 2010)

ihaveherps said:


> Wonder if honesty and truth will survive .....
> 
> Jay seeing as internationally it is now widely accepted that they all have neuro conditions to some degree, and the undeniable origins of the trait here, you would have to assume that they do.
> 
> ...



This is as i assumed. I was reading last week also that seemingly unaffected parents can produce babies with this tick.

Will this knowledge deter some people from keeping them? Will breeders cull hatchies with an obvious tick and just keep those that appear normal?


----------



## ShaunMorelia (Aug 19, 2010)

So what if the SXR line is actually an original aussie morph completely different to the overseas jag?
Yeah it may look the same but on a different allele?


----------



## byron_moses (Aug 19, 2010)

nice bredli mojo


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 19, 2010)

mojo73 said:


> How would that explain the markings of both mother and grandfather?


 i know 3 bredli breeders that have proven that most of the striped bredli are from a recessive stripe gene and not co dominant as it is with most other carpet species.
cheers
simon


----------



## Cheyne_Jones (Aug 19, 2010)

The_S_Word said:


> So what if the SXR line is actually an original aussie morph completely different to the overseas jag?
> Yeah it may look the same but on a different allele?


 
You dont seriously believe that do you?


----------



## Retic (Aug 19, 2010)

Anything is possible. 



Cheyne_Jones said:


> You dont seriously believe that do you?


----------



## pythrulz (Aug 20, 2010)

great looking RPMs barramundi


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 21, 2010)

LARKS,
Is your animal (cyrus) a true ORANGE PEPPER or just a really good hypo and is it a RPM/JAG? I ask this becuase myself and SXR are the only 2 people who have animals of that age, as I didnt sell you that animal and neither did SXR and SXR were the first to breed and coin the name ORANGE PEPPER it would be good to clarify. The ORANGE PEPPER/CARAMEL gene is very unique and completely different to the hypo genetics, above is a pic of a true ORANGE PEPPER or CARAMEL not a hypo RPM/JAG.....

IHAVEHERPS,
Simon you are right in what you say, neuro defects are and have now occurred in our JAGS. Anyone who thinks that they wont are kidding themselves......IMO we wont have it occur as regularly but it will happen. I currently own 8 adult and holdback RPM/JAGS and have never once seen any signs of neuro defects in these animals. 

Last season I bred 13 and 1 showed signs within a week of hatching only for the signs to disappear shortly after....This animal was given to a friend who reports that the signs presented again recently after the animal was moved, to my knowledge this animal has now been humanely euthanised and IMO any animals that I breed in future that present neuro probs will be euthanised. 

The remaining 12 juveniles are in the hands of other keepers and recent reports all say they are powering and growing strong with no signs of neuro defects, some of these animals have been posted by other members in this thread.....

So all in all, neuro probs have and will present in Aussie RPM/JAGS, however more than likely it will only present in a very small minority.


----------



## Retic (Aug 21, 2010)

Quite right, this belief that for some bizarre reason those bred here wont be affected by neuro issues is laughable. The neuro problem CANNOT be bred out of Jags no matter how much fresh blood is introduced. 
The problem does only manifest itself rarely and many animals show no signs at all, even those that do show signs lead a healthy life and will breed as readily as non Jags. Personally I wouldn't euthanise any obviously affected animals, partly because they may not show any signs until they are years old or have already bred or are just subjected to some kind of stress.


----------



## larks (Aug 21, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> View attachment 160207
> 
> 
> LARKS,
> Is your animal (cyrus) a true ORANGE PEPPER or just a really good hypo and is it a RPM/JAG? I ask this becuase myself and SXR are the only 2 people who have animals of that age, as I didnt sell you that animal and neither did SXR and SXR were the first to breed and coin the name ORANGE PEPPER it would be good to clarify. The ORANGE PEPPER/CARAMEL gene is very unique and completely different to the hypo genetics, above is a pic of a true ORANGE PEPPER or CARAMEL not a hypo RPM/JAG.....


 
Yes it is a TRUE orange pepper jag. Can you show us a pic of your adult orange pepper?


----------



## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 21, 2010)

Thanks LARKS

I dont have adult ORANGE PEPPER RPM/JAGS, what I do have is adult CARAMEL coastals that when bred with my RPM/JAGS produce ORANGE PEPPERS or CARAMEL RPM/JAGS.....The ORANGE PEPPERS or CARAMEL RPM/JAGS that you see in some of my posts are the holdbacks from my WHITE male when bred with my adult CARAMEL Coastals....

I have attached pics, sorry about the sizes again, I have just changed jobs and am now useing a different computer that doesnt have my resized pics on it.......Thanks for the info


----------



## kenneally1 (Aug 22, 2010)

75% reduced IJ x Jag





















His future partner.. Schofield reduced IJ









regards
nigel


----------



## kenneally1 (Aug 22, 2010)

mojo73 said:


> Possible co-dom trait in my bredli. The reduced pattern and partial dorsal striping is present in the mother and also the grandfather (who is owned by someone else) and gets passed on to about 25% of the offspring when mated to unrelated bredli lines. In a few years time I hope to mate this male holdback with the mother and to see what the outcome may be.


 
I get what your saying mate  can't wait till i get my pair, it'll be interesting to see if it is genetic.


----------



## kenneally1 (Aug 22, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Spot on Gunny, it doesnt 100% mean anything until its proven out. But that still doesnt mean that these potentially aren't AXANTHICS.....
> 
> As Kenno said, we cant really claim any true AXANTHICS until someone does the hard work on their MD'S, COASTALS or any other carpets that show similar characteristics. In the mean time they are Black and White carpets, once/if proven successfully then they are AXANTHIC carpets......


 
I'm hoping this guy might prove out for me. He's a reduced IJ, and just keeps getting more silver/pewter with each shed. Whatever he is , it's gonna be fun finding out.


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## zobo (Aug 22, 2010)

looks like there will be plenty more around this season as they all come out of the woodwork now.

seeing as they are co-dom and easy to breed (only needing 1 x animal to produce your own jags) and no doubt males will be bred with multiple females, how will this effect the price this year??

j


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 22, 2010)

True Zobo , but most people want the bright yellow Rpms ,so most are putting them over small jungles...like with most things albinos ect the price will drop for the regular animals and as the jungle blood is increased and the pattern gets more reduced with the Rpms, the price will stay high for the higher quality animals.

When people saw the albino jags ,they then looked at the regular albinos differently...same will go for jags as soon as some of the really bright & reduced animals (face melters) are produced and other things people havent seen, they will look at the 'regular' jags we already have differently. 

The price for the higher quality better looking, brighter more reduced animals that will come in later will still demand ridiculous prices....they are going to attract alot of people, so the amount of buyers will increase as well,i know quite a few people waiting for jags to get a little more interesting ,at the moment they are still pretty average compared to overseas animals...


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 22, 2010)

well said fusion, summed up pretty damn well. 

IMO pricing is going to depend on availability and quality. New cross's and higher % RPM/JAGS will hold for some years to come....

Great animals Kenneally.


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## Colin (Aug 22, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> well said fusion, summed up pretty damn well.
> 
> IMO pricing is going to depend on availability and quality. New cross's and higher % RPM/JAGS will hold for some years to come....


 
agreed barra


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## mojo73 (Aug 22, 2010)

As soon as the RPM's get into the hands off the masses their prices will drop like a proverbial lead weight thanks to the co-dominant mutation. The major issue is going to be selling mixed blood siblings which will be produced in their masses in the quest for the brighter coloured and more reduced patterned animals. 

ps. do RPM's like jags also produce dead leucy's when bred together or are they two different beasts?


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## Retic (Aug 22, 2010)

I think it is fair to say they hold the same passports 



mojo73 said:


> ps. do RPM's like jags also produce dead leucy's when bred together or are they two different beasts?


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2010)




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## pythonmum (Aug 22, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> So all in all, neuro probs have and will present in Aussie RPM/JAGS, however more than likely it will only present in a very small minority. [/FONT]


My understanding from reading overseas discussions is that the RPM/jag trait is the product of a difference in neural crest cell migration. This would explain the variable neurological signs. Given the genetic variety in carpet pythons we have at our disposal, it may be possible to minimise neurological impairment by careful selection like you describe. Stress tends to bring out any problems (hence the snake showing more signs when moved) and I imagine poor control of incubation tempertures would also contribute. It will be interesting to see how things pan out.


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## kenneally1 (Aug 22, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> well said fusion, summed up pretty damn well.
> 
> IMO pricing is going to depend on availability and quality. New cross's and higher % RPM/JAGS will hold for some years to come....
> 
> Great animals Kenneally.


 



Quality jags from good blood lines will always sell for a premium price............ However i should imagine that the same thing that happened over here will happen there. People will buy jags of poor quality and not care that they are fugly, and then outcross them to poor examples of jungle's/coastal/ ij's etc,etc just to make more jags and more MONEY. Not caring that the end result is more fugly jags and fugly mutt sib's. 
However if you get a good jag from great bloodlines and breed him to a trophy jungle/coastal etc, then the resulting offspring will be of a quality that will demand a higher price.

The thing is, that you will always get people that have no regards for the snakes, and only see dollar signs when they look at Jags. This results in the market being flooded with crap, due to the co-dom nature of Jags!!!


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 22, 2010)

i personally think that jags are capable of setting their own price. if it's an acceptional looking animal , it will get top dollar.if it is a run of the mill jag ,it will get market price.males will probably always be worth more than females because it can mate with more animals.but i also think jags and albinos will hold their value around the $1000 mark because it is affordable to most dedicated herpers and they will be highly sort after for quite a while to come.the old supply and demand reason.
cheers
simon


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## levis04 (Aug 22, 2010)

How can Jags be legal? Also how is it legal to cross them with other native carpets?


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## yommy (Aug 22, 2010)

levis04 said:


> How can Jags be legal? Also how is it legal to cross them with other native carpets?


 
I think it comes down to how can the authorities prove it and live in NSW......

they are here to stay and it seems the quality is only going to get better and better......


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## -Matt- (Aug 22, 2010)

Farma said:


>



Probably the best looking co-dom in here...


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## Choco (Aug 22, 2010)

levis04 said:


> How can Jags be legal? Also how is it legal to cross them with other native carpets?



I think I asked it on another thread but anyway...what does a jag or RPM, assuming it's not pure coastal, get put under on your record book.

Cheers,
Allan


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 23, 2010)

Choco said:


> I think I asked it on another thread but anyway...what does a jag or RPM, assuming it's not pure coastal, get put under on your record book.
> 
> Cheers,
> Allan


 
morelia spilota


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 23, 2010)

levis04 said:


> How can Jags be legal? Also how is it legal to cross them with other native carpets?


 
Lack of evidence to be proved otherwise.
most states only require "carpet python" and "morelia spilota" to be marked down on movement advices.i'd say that this is how most will be done.
cheers
simon


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## larks (Aug 23, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> View attachment 160207
> 
> 
> LARKS,
> Is your animal (cyrus) a true ORANGE PEPPER or just a really good hypo and is it a RPM/JAG? I ask this becuase myself and SXR are the only 2 people who have animals of that age, as I didnt sell you that animal and neither did SXR and SXR were the first to breed and coin the name ORANGE PEPPER it would be good to clarify. The ORANGE PEPPER/CARAMEL gene is very unique and completely different to the hypo genetics, above is a pic of a true ORANGE PEPPER or CARAMEL not a hypo RPM/JAG.....


 
According to the breeder of the original orange peppers this is not the case. The true orange peppers came from a RPM/jag bred to a really nice hypo coastal that was bred by trueblue, not a caramel. So breeding a jag to a caramel doesn't make an orange pepper it just makes a caramel jag and by the look of your pic it is still an awesome looking animal.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 24, 2010)

I second Larks. To be a hundred percent correct, it was a suspected jungle rpm X hypo.


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## andyh (Aug 25, 2010)

Some stunning animals here people, keep em comming!


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## matt123 (Aug 26, 2010)

yea i would love some of those peppers, wink wink haha, keep us posted larks, and keep the co dom pics coming guys


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 28, 2010)

larks said:


> According to the breeder of the original orange peppers this is not the case. The true orange peppers came from a RPM/jag bred to a really nice hypo coastal that was bred by trueblue, not a caramel. So breeding a jag to a caramel doesn't make an orange pepper it just makes a caramel jag and by the look of your pic it is still an awesome looking animal.



In that case then your explanation and what the original breeder explains confirms there is a substantial difference between ORANGE PEPPER JAGS and CARAMEL JAGS, these 2 morphs have been referred to in the past as the same morph. However I and many others have had doubts, as my animals dont look like your or SXR's ORANGE PEPPERS. 

More so my animals look like true CARAMELS seen elsewhere...... and since the parents of mine are not hypos and they produce the correct ratio and also the correct phenotype that corresponds with the CARAMELS. Therefore like you say the animals I have bred and posted are actually true CARAMELS and what you have are true ORANGE PEPPERS or like you say hypo coastal jags that trace back to trueblues hypo coastals and a RPM/JAG.....

This above explanations sound quite trivial, however it is good to confirm there is a difference between the 2 morphs....


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 28, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> well said fusion, summed up pretty damn well.
> 
> IMO pricing is going to depend on availability and quality. New cross's and higher % RPM/JAGS will hold for some years to come....



I too agree, well said Fusion. I am pulling my hair out to see what you guys produce over the next few years..."face melters" LMAO love it!!!..they will put the shizzle in my whizzle for sure.....LOL 
Where do you get those tags from? Keep up the good work guys!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 28, 2010)

kenneally1 said:


> Quality jags from good blood lines will always sell for a premium price............ However i should imagine that the same thing that happened over here will happen there. People will buy jags of poor quality and not care that they are fugly, and then outcross them to poor examples of jungle's/coastal/ ij's etc,etc just to make more jags and more MONEY. Not caring that the end result is more fugly jags and fugly mutt sib's.
> However if you get a good jag from great bloodlines and breed him to a trophy jungle/coastal etc, then the resulting offspring will be of a quality that will demand a higher price.
> 
> Yes the same thing will happen over here, however it has already happened with our regular Carpets, although it appears the message has sunk in.....breed for quality or dont breed at all.
> ...


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 28, 2010)

Does any international members have pics of Jags when they have matured, 5 year olds plus??

Would like to see how they turn out as most pics are of young 'hot" looking animals....

I for one, wouldn't buy a "fugly" why????


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## Camo (Aug 28, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Yes the same thing will happen over here, however it has already happened with our regular Carpets, although it appears the message has sunk in.....breed for quality or dont breed at all.
> 
> All you need to do to prove this is look at our classifieds and see how many average examples of JUNGLES, DIAMONDS, BREDLI etc that people have bred and cant sell for a fraction of what they were worth 12 months ago. Sure people will cross them over whatever they can to make a quick buck, but the majority of buyers and breeders now realise its quality not quantity........Just take a look at Colin, JungleFreak, the Devil and some others, still selling quality Jungles for above $450 and even close to $1000, unlike the masses selling Jungles for $150 - $200.
> 
> Like I said the future is quality not quantity........


I have to agree yet disagree at the same time Barra. While most of us will go for quality animals (which is what should be done) i bet you if you put up Jungles for $50 they would sell before the $450 ones to most people regardless of quality. Its just how most people are these days. To many care about saving a buck than the actual quality of the animals. 

With working in the pet industry for years i have seen this all to many times.

You see people selling whole clutches of non feeding ordinary carpets and people snap them up all day every day without them even having a first shed or feed. This to me says there is still quantity over quality being bought.

At the end of the day it would be great to see only quality animals produced but like you said there is just to many people in it for the money and not the passion.

Cameron


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## Camo (Aug 28, 2010)

The thing is with these "fugly" ones is like Barra and kenneally said most people just wont care.

They may start out with a fugly RPM/JAG and think "who cares, at least i have one" but they will breed it until they get a nice looking RPM. This process could result in dozens of fugly animals before a nice one is produced. So what happens to the fugly ones? Well the above process will go on and on with the new keepers buying, thinking and doing the same thing.

With them being co-dom there will be so many rubbish crosses going around in a few years. What is to be done with the normal crosses (not being RPM) if they are not carrying a particular gene. They will be sold off for the price of a can of coke which will result in more people breeding them and more rubbish animals.

I would love it to be all about quality but its just ones of those thingsthat some people wont stick to, which is a shame.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 28, 2010)

Breeding till they get a nice one is going to take some time, say 3-4 seasons at best and by that time they will be well and truely behind the 8 ball in terms of progress......and yes it will produce fugly ones that will be cheap. But thats all their ever going to be, cheap fugly unwanted jags that the majority of keepers wouldnt look at....

eg, I know I would rather pay $2 500 for a 75% or 88% RPM/JAG than pay, say $1 000 for a standard coastal RPM/JAG.......

I understand I probably dont think like every herper out there, but if I want to be at the sharp end of the hobby then I look for quality and less available morphs over run of the mill animals......Although not everyones budget allows this mentality, so therefore opening up the market to the cheaper more readily available RPM/JAG market.....JMO


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## larks (Aug 28, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> In that case then your explanation and what the original breeder explains confirms there is a substantial difference between ORANGE PEPPER JAGS and CARAMEL JAGS, these 2 morphs have been referred to in the past as the same morph. However I and many others have had doubts, as my animals dont look like your or SXR's ORANGE PEPPERS.
> 
> More so my animals look like true CARAMELS seen elsewhere...... and since the parents of mine are not hypos and they produce the correct ratio and also the correct phenotype that corresponds with the CARAMELS. Therefore like you say the animals I have bred and posted are actually true CARAMELS and what you have are true ORANGE PEPPERS or like you say hypo coastal jags that trace back to trueblues hypo coastals and a RPM/JAG.....
> 
> This above explanations sound quite trivial, however it is good to confirm there is a difference between the 2 morphs....




However trivial the explanation may sound, I think at this early stage of breeding jags (or RPMs as some like to say) here in OZ, it is important that we be as honest and truthful as we can about what is bred into them right from the start.


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## Camo (Aug 29, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Breeding till they get a nice one is going to take some time, say 3-4 seasons at best and by that time they will be well and truely behind the 8 ball in terms of progress......and yes it will produce fugly ones that will be cheap. But thats all their ever going to be, cheap fugly unwanted jags that the majority of keepers wouldnt look at....
> 
> eg, I know I would rather pay $2 500 for a 75% or 88% RPM/JAG than pay, say $1 000 for a standard coastal RPM/JAG.......
> 
> I understand I probably dont think like every herper out there, but if I want to be at the sharp end of the hobby then I look for quality and less available morphs over run of the mill animals......Although not everyones budget allows this mentality, so therefore opening up the market to the cheaper more readily available RPM/JAG market.....JMO


Totally agree there.

Getting a quality RPM out of an ordinary one will deffinately take time but it will be done which means there will be plenty of standard stuff floating about.

I am in the same boat when it comes to quality. I buy quality and dont mind spending that little bit extra for quality animals.


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## Camo (Aug 29, 2010)

ihaveherps said:


> Also, just wondering, heard Coastal Jags brought up, now whats the deal with coastal jag sibs. Do you think that the sibs are just standard coastal carpets seeing as overseas they are considered to have no magical properties, or should be sold with the tag "coastal jag sibling". No loaded question, just in my opinion, Jan Eric has been clear as mud about the origins, and has seemed to shoot through with the cash, rather than deliver his promised tell all article. So as a purist I am sceptical, and as such would implicate on my future purchases of coastal carpets if I was to know that there was a Jag sib somewhere back in the line.


They should be sold as coastals if you have bred a RPM coastal to a normal coastal. 50% will be RPM coastals and the other 50% will be normal coastals. They dont carry any hidden gene so they should be sold as coastals. That wont be the problem IMO. The harder part will be selling the 50% non RPM hatchies if you mate a Coastal RPM to a Jungle. 

These are things that need to be clearly told when selling. I think some people will try and palm off these hybrid standards as pure.


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## larks (Aug 29, 2010)

All coastal jags or RPM sibs should be sold as coastal jag sibs as that is what they are. 50% of the clutch may apear to be just normal coastals, but there is no way of knowing what is really in a jag or RPM to start with .... JMO


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Aug 29, 2010)

Siblings should just not be sold at all, RPMs should be microchipped. In a perfect world, I guess. We will be chipping our animals.


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## kenneally1 (Aug 30, 2010)

For Southside Morelia


Here's "Spyro" he's 4 years old. He's a 75% reduced IJ x Jag


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## kenneally1 (Aug 30, 2010)

Camo said:


> They should be sold as coastals if you have bred a RPM coastal to a normal coastal. 50% will be RPM coastals and the other 50% will be normal coastals. They dont carry any hidden gene so they should be sold as coastals. That wont be the problem IMO. The harder part will be selling the 50% non RPM hatchies if you mate a Coastal RPM to a Jungle.
> 
> These are things that need to be clearly told when selling. I think some people will try and palm off these hybrid standards as pure.


 


That depends if you believe that Jags are pure coastal's.


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## NickM (Aug 30, 2010)

Australian keepers will now have to deal with all the same problems we have in the US and Europe. I understand there is tremendous desire/demand for morphs , but there is a serious negative side to it as well.

The problem is that you will see huge demand for Jungle/jags, but nearly zero demand for the mutt siblings that hatch alongside with them. Your herp market will never bee the same.

Regardless of anyones views on the subject, the reality is that anyone in Oz who wants to purchase a pure carpet will have to much more careful in the future.

The issue of jags being pure coastals will be less important over time. The mutation started out in pure coastals, but very quickly became questionable. So its possible to have a pure coastal jag. But just because some pure coastal jags certainly do exist, does not mean that the founder stock of the RPM lineage was pure, which I would have no way of knowing, it is certainly possible they are pure coastals, so it would be unwise to assume they are not.

But what will it matter in 5 years anyway, when the focus is on hybridizing them anyway?

Nick


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 30, 2010)

NickM said:


> Australian keepers will now have to deal with all the same problems we have in the US and Europe. I understand there is tremendous desire/demand for morphs , but there is a serious negative side to it as well.
> 
> The problem is that you will see huge demand for Jungle/jags, but nearly zero demand for the mutt siblings that hatch alongside with them. Your herp market will never bee the same.
> 
> ...


 
spot on Nick


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## Camo (Aug 30, 2010)

kenneally1 said:


> That depends if you believe that Jags are pure coastal's.


So we are told :lol:


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## Southside Morelia (Aug 30, 2010)

kenneally1 said:


> For Southside Morelia
> 
> Here's "Spyro" he's 4 years old. He's a 75% reduced IJ x Jag


Still HOT after 4 years!!! 
Thanks for the pics.  
As much as I LOVE the jags and stuff they are absolutely awesome and hope to get a few one day, I do have reservations....As Barra has said not quoted but along these lines.."he doesn't think like other herpers, in his purchase of his stock".. Which I do concur with this way of thinking and I did sell all my old "classic" looking animals, to now only own different looking and more sought after animals as my own personal preference. I have however, often felt, it it will be frustrating in future knowing because I do own pure animals only ATM, one day some will think they are not because they are similar to RPM's etc...and the debate will start to try and justify your own collections origin.


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 30, 2010)

NickM said:


> Australian keepers will now have to deal with all the same problems we have in the US and Europe. I understand there is tremendous desire/demand for morphs , but there is a serious negative side to it as well.
> 
> The problem is that you will see huge demand for Jungle/jags, but nearly zero demand for the mutt siblings that hatch alongside with them. Your herp market will never bee the same.
> 
> ...


 
No slimbo that was not spot on.

Australia and USA contain Different people Nick , have you ever lived in
Australia? 

USA did not know any better ,originally they got ther carpets imported as 'Carpets' not separate individual carpet sub species, this is the reason why all Americas carpets are Crosses.

Australia on the other hand know what they have ,Australia have
people called purists that will only breed pure animals ,so the rest of the Herpers can breed what ever they like but there will always be 'pure' animals that are separate and will always remain separate and pure.

There WILL be demand for the mutt siblings....There are 21 million people in Australia with more to come,when some of these more colorful morphs start getting interesting (and better then the rest of the worlds)
the hobby will grow in Australia and it will be a different story, unfortunately i think most of the mutt siblings will have the same fate as the infamous Lucy.

I'm sorry but i completely disagree with your posts regarding Rpms, Australia and USA are different for many reasons, some of these reasons are why i will always live in Australia 


Cheers!


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## PimmsPythons (Aug 30, 2010)

most that went over there ,back before the subspecies days and back when it was legal, were from known localities.there is still many american and european zoos that import pure lines. there are plenty of pure carpets and pure carpet breeders in europe and america, they aren't all crosses.fairly recently a zoo in America just imported pure aussie scrubbys so maybe they will hit the market in the future as well over there.
Nick has already seen what has happened first hand since the Jags hit the big scene while we have been watching and reading via the internet ,so what he is saying will probably be correct .
we have to also remember all these new kids that are are just getting into the reptile game wont want your average coastal.he will want that you beaut albinojagrpmgranitepython.
so in 10 years or so when the morphs have been done to death,the cycle will come back around to pure pythons again as is happening overseas now.no point whinging and complaining,there is room for the purists and the morph breeders.
aussie jag breeders will still be able to move on their jag sibs cheaply if they wish ,but buyers will have to understand that all jag sibs will all have a question mark over their head on what exact subspecies is in them. i have a feeling some breeders who wont wish to put time into them will put them straight into the freezer.
cheers
simon


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## NickM (Aug 31, 2010)

fusion said:


> No slimbo that was not spot on.
> 
> Australia and USA contain Different people Nick , have you ever lived in
> Australia?
> ...


 
Most what you just said is simply not true. there are plenty of pure lines of carpets here, and if you really search you can still find them, I have more than I know what to do with.

Second, Australia is NOT that different than the USA. I have been Australia, and I fell in love with the place. But I was surprised at how similar Australia was to the USA culturally. It would be a topic for another thread, but our two countries have VERY similar histories in most regards and the result is a strong cultural similarity today.

As such you will experience the same results that we did with regards to Jags, and your hobby will never be the same. You may feel that that constitutes "progress" and you have every right to your opinion, others will disagree.

The problems with making countless jag hybrids is twofold. 

1: nobody wants the normal intergrades from the clutch, your way off if you think they will. Why would someone want an animal thats 50% jungle, if they can just get a more colorfull 100% jungle??? they will have to be sold VERY cheap in order to sell them at all. Most will end up as generic "carpets" at pet shops and ultimatley become "unknown"

2: after the initial race to make things like jungle jags, the race becomes about making higher% jungle jags, the eventual end product is very nice looking mutt jags, but also making mutt normals that look EXACTLY like pure jungles. Since few are interested in the intergrades the reality is that over time, many of these will simply "become" pure jungles.

This has been happening here for years and it will happen in Oz as well.

If you think this is an acceptable price to pay , in order to have yellow RPMs, than again you are entitled to your opinion.

Australians have wanted these for a very long time, and you guys down there are dont need anyone telling you want to do with your own herp scene. I am however pointing out the innevitable consequences of whats happening.


It would be nice to pretend that there are no negative consequences for anyone from such breedings , but there most certainly will be. Weather you think the benefits of crossing them are worth it is a descision for Australians to make.


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## NickM (Aug 31, 2010)

And why do you think that there will be a demand for the mutt normals, because Australia has 21 million people? The USA has over 300 million people and the largest herp market int he world, and nobody really wants them.

Nick


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## Retic (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm sorry but I really can't believe that anyone really believes that America, Europe or wherever don't have known pure lines, it's absurd. How many carpets have arrived overseas without passports ? My guess would be 1000's over the years, most of these animals would have arrived with locality details attached. 
Good or bad there is little doubt the hobby here is going the exact same way as every other country in the world.
It's also worth noting that most of the best Morelia morphs are not originating in America but in Europe where there are also many pure lines.


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## NickM (Aug 31, 2010)

I dont want to beat-up on the hybridizers, its strange but most of my best friends in herpetoculture are serious hybridizers.

The reality is that after years of being a bit "behind" in captive breeding, Australia's herp scene is really booming. I follow this forum because its exiting to see all the fantastic stock being produced in Oz now.

But of course the rapid expansion of the hobby in Australia, innevitably leads to these sort of things.

And once the taboo against hybrids is lifted it will increase further. Over here people are breeding anything and everything together , just to see if its possible, or for the noteriety they think they will gain.

Over here carpet pythons have been hybridized with 10 different FULL species, not to mention all the intergrades with sub-species. In fact there are only 3 members of the Genus Morelia that have NOT been hybridized with carpets here: carinata and oenpellensis, because nobody really has them, and Morelia tracyea, because nobody can get them to breed at all.

But I am quite confident now that Carinata are being sold here, that someone will make carinata hybrid jags in the next 2 years!

This will no doubt excite some people, and horrify others, but its the natural progression of these things.

Just look at the change in attitude toward hybrids on this forum in the last year. It seems like just a very short time ago , anyone talking about hybrids was quickly condemned by the majority. Today the attitude has changed tremendously, and those of us not in favor of hybrids are often the ones getting lectured. And all this just because Jags hit the Australian reptile market.

Nick


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## Retic (Aug 31, 2010)

Apparently carinata have been hybridised with GTP's more than once here, no-one seems to have photo's but too many people seem to know about them for it just to be rumour.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 31, 2010)

ihaveherps said:


> This thread is going in a positive drection.... alot better than I ever expected to be honest.
> 
> A while back, some clown tried to sell me a line of utter bullcrap about the "rpms" via pm, I couldnt believe the stupidity of it, and saw it as the clouds on the horizon of a storm brewing, and will never respect the morals and ethics of this mungbean, nor them as a person.
> 
> ...


 
Cheers Simon.........as said we are definately trying set things straight......


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## kupper (Aug 31, 2010)

it just shows the calibre of a person when they can be honest with not only others but themselves


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## impulse reptiles (Aug 31, 2010)

No Nick , how do you know the blood lines are pure did you get them out of the bush? did you personally track the animals on there way over here? im aware of the gosford zoo bloodlines ect ect but how can you really know there pure? you ''simply'' dont.


why are you posting the same information over and over again? we know thats mutt sibs will be produced ,flood the market ect ect ect , we know :?


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## NickM (Sep 1, 2010)

fusion said:


> No Nick , how do you know the blood lines are pure did you get them out of the bush? did you personally track the animals on there way over here? im aware of the gosford zoo bloodlines ect ect but how can you really know there pure? you ''simply'' dont


 
All anyone is saying is take responsibility for your actions. If you truly believe that making tons of hybrid carpets is worth the inevitable damage it will do to your captive gene pool , than just say that.

What angers purists the most, is really the attempt to pretend that it will not cause any problems. You then follow that up with an attempt to cast doubt on the validity of "pure stock". This is also an old tactic, used at length here to justify the practice.

The last argument that the pro-hybrid breeders here use is also to claim that "there will always be purist breeders" this is a bit of a slap in the face to those of us on the other side as well. Its as if your saying that what you do wont matter because other people will provide some sort of safety-net , thus you escape any personal responsibility.

I have been breeding carpets longer than some members of this forum have been alive, so please do not speak to me as if I am nome sort of newbie. I have managed to learn a few things in all these years and I have the benefit of watching this entire process play out here and in Europe over the last 15 years.

Nick


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## NickM (Sep 1, 2010)

This is an inescapable extension of the "morph" market. The issue really is not even about carpets, as this same thing has happened with other species here as well. Boa constrictors are just as mixed up now as carpets here. Like carpets, boa constrictors come in a variety of localities and sub-species, and just like with carpets, the morphs have been crossed into every sub-species. In this case it had nothing to do with any uncertainty of the animals origins , as you eluded to. 

People begin to look at different sub-species as if they were morphs , instead of different animals. this is also happening with Blood pythons, Sand boas, and rainbow boas. Perhaps its just human nature.


I have read hundreds of posts on this forum over the years that indicated a strong desire on the part of some to have an Australian herp scene that was more similar to that of the US and Europe. Well that time has come.

Your hobby in Oz is at a huge turning point now, and for better or worse it will never be the same.

You have to take the bad with the good. You will certainly see some crazy looking carpets produced, but you will also produce a large number of by-product animals along the way, which will enter your hobby , often mis-labeled.


I am not Australian, so I have no stake in the outcome, but the outcome is already known.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 4, 2010)

Nick,
thanks for your point of view, its certainly a valid one at that....However, as some members have frustratingly said, the results will not be the same as the US. Yes our hobby is never going to be the same, but we certainly now know what not to do.

When all this first came out, I and a few others copped a flaming with more than 95% of comments to threads being negative, we were also told we will never be responsible and will never develop an open and honest hybrid culture. 

To date, we have swung the masses 180 degrees to 95% positive comments and a very open and honest culture, with people openly advertising hybrids for what they are.......hybrids. Rather than sweeping them under the rug and passing them off.........

Sure there are going to be cowboys passing off hybrids for locale and line bred carpets, the truth is that this was and is already happening before JAGS ever popped up. As stated above, the rise of RPM/JAGS and our efforts to encourage keepers to openly and honestly label the hybrids correctly is a huge positive step forward and one for the better.

Where we need to go from here is to maintain the open and honest culture, but also encourage keepers to only produce hybrids if it is for a desired outcome that has a market. 

IMO crossing a bredli with a Diamond is not a desired outcome, all it produces is a $25 snake that has no genetic value. On the other hand crossing a 75% Jungle RPM/JAG with an ALBINO Darwin does, and so does the mutt siblings as they can be used for future designer snake projects to produce % cross ALBINOS, % cross ALBINO RPM/JAGS and RPM/JAGS........

I understand that not all people will attempt RPM/JAGS cross's with the sibs in the majority of cases containing genetic value, its these no value sibs that we need to be very carefull with. But in my experience with RPM/JAGS the sibs dont look like pure lines and any attempt to pass them off as something else is and will be pretty hard. 

I am sure the odd newbie AND experienced keeper may get ripped off with one of these sibs, but as said this is nothing new to our hobby and it certainly isnt going to wreck our herp scene...........As said word travells fast and the weeds will be weeded out very quickly.....


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## S&M Morelia (Sep 30, 2010)

Very good post Barramundi.

Here is one of ours. Will get some better shots with a better camera once I get the time.





Cheers.


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## vinny86 (Sep 30, 2010)

Nice RPM S&M! Gotta be happy with him!


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## AM Pythons (Sep 30, 2010)

barra could you post a pic of a rpm/jag sib?


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## S&M Morelia (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks Vinny86, he gets better with every shed.
I'll get some decent pictures after his next one.

Cheers.


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## Kanga-Who (Oct 1, 2010)

I've been hearing a bit of talk about these jags/rpms having neuro problems, so whats the go with that


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## kupper (Oct 1, 2010)

Kanga-Who said:


> I've been hearing a bit of talk about these jags/rpms having neuro problems, so whats the go with that


 might want to read the whole thread or do a search via search function before starting spot fires


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## ezekiel86 (Oct 1, 2010)

SnM Morelia he is very nice 
cant wait to see the other pics


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## AM Pythons (Oct 1, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> barra could you post a pic of a rpm/jag sib?



not needed, just found pleanty of pics...thanks


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 1, 2010)

Tony where did you find the sib pics ?


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## AM Pythons (Oct 1, 2010)

australian reptile addiction Roger.. there not barra's pics.. sorry if thats what you thought...i just havnt seen many sib pics, it would be good to see what the ones over here look like though...


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 1, 2010)

ok Cheers Tony 
will look at those pics now

Roger


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## AM Pythons (Oct 1, 2010)

im really stuggling to find any nice looking sibs...


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## S&M Morelia (Oct 1, 2010)

ezekiel86 said:


> SnM Morelia he is very nice
> cant wait to see the other pics


Thanks ezekiel86.

AM Pyhtons, I am yet to see some great looking siblings from the breeding of a RPM/Jag to a different subspecies of Morelia.
I think it really all comes down to the quality of the parents. Even then there will still be a wide range of patterns and colours, as there is in normal pure breedings.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry, I dont have any pics of sibs from last season, none caught my eye as anything special. 

If I was to describe them in Michael Cermaks words, it would go something along the lines of "ugly trogladite something or anothers"......


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## The Devil (Oct 2, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Sorry, I dont have any pics of sibs from last season, none caught my eye as anything special.
> 
> If I was to describe them in Michael Cermaks words, it would go something along the lines of "ugly trogladite something or anothers"......



The one I had from my Julatten girl ended up where "ugly trogladite something or anothers" should go.
I only kept it for about 6 months just to see how it looked and as Barra says, nothing special.


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## The Devil (Oct 4, 2010)

I was at Barra's place this morning and took this pic of my Julatten jungle girl. She has been with a white MD rpm and looking at her belly he sure has done the job.
If the babies are anything like last years we will both be happy.
Not looking the best at the moment, very hormonal and about 10 days off her pre lay.

I did take some pics of Barras snakes but I had better let him decide what he wants to put up.....


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## deebo (Oct 4, 2010)

still looking pretty nice nev. Good luck with her.

Got a pic of her partner?

Cheers,
Dave


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## The Devil (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks David.. Just had another look at my pic and boy it is a crappy pic.

Pic of Barras white MD


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## Camo (Oct 4, 2010)

Looking good Nev.


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## mrs_davo (Oct 4, 2010)

Come on be a DEVIL & show us the pics.


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## The Devil (Oct 4, 2010)

ian_davo said:


> Come on be a DEVIL & show us the pics.



Sorry, I think the right thing to do is let Barra decide what he wants to show. I have emailed the pics to him so maybe tomorrow.


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 4, 2010)

They should produce some AMAZING animals guys...cant wait to see the offspring.
Also love the look of the white MD, now thats different.. in comparison.... STUNNING


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## The Devil (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks Scott. I have kept a little male from last season. He was a bit slow to get feeding and so is a couple of sheds behind some others.
He is starting to look nice and gets better with each shed. In 12 months time, well who knows......


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## Minka (Oct 7, 2010)

I posted this pic in another thread but here it is again. Recent pic of my male...


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## Camo (Oct 7, 2010)

Very nice Minka.


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## ShaunMorelia (Oct 13, 2010)

Looks like he has a nice full belly as well minka


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 13, 2010)

Minka said:


> I posted this pic in another thread but here it is again. Recent pic of my male...


 Thats a stunner T, looking forward to seeing how it progresses and the colour change.


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## S&M Morelia (Oct 15, 2010)

As promised here's an updated pic with a better camera.
Took a while, but we got it :lol:


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## Jay84 (Oct 15, 2010)

SnM_Morelia said:


> As promised here's an updated pic with a better camera.
> Took a while, but we got it :lol:
> 
> View attachment 168234



Stunning!!


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## S&M Morelia (Oct 15, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> Stunning!!



Thanks Jay84.
It is actually amazing at how much they change. Can't wait for the next shed.


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## Colin (Oct 16, 2010)

threw this rpm het albino in a tub while doing some cleaning and took a couple of pics..


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## aspidito (Oct 16, 2010)

Hey thats a killer Colin you lucky sod..................I hope to have a clutch of them this year, 18 eggs in the incubator right now


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## Colin (Oct 16, 2010)

aspidito said:


> Hey thats a killer Colin you lucky sod.................. I hope to have a clutch of them this year, 18 eggs in the incubator right now



thanks paul.. congrats and best of luck with them mate  
another rpm het albino..


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 16, 2010)

This pair has succesfully bred, the male is a 100% het Albino RPM/JAG, female is the Albino Darwin. It was the females first season laying 9 good eggs. So hopefully an Albino RPM/JAG is only 40 or so days away.

She is pretty dam small, as I dont use scales the only way I can give an accurate account of her size would be her girth after laying was about as thick as a broomstick.......


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## The Devil (Oct 16, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> View attachment 168290
> 
> 
> This pair has succesfully bred, the male is a 100% het Albino RPM/JAG, female is the Albino Darwin. It was the females first season laying 9 good eggs. So hopefully an Albino RPM/JAG is only 40 or so days away.
> ...



I saw her after she laid and Barra, small is not the word I would use to describe her. More like, Holy Hell, she actually laid eggs!!!!!!!!


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## Jay84 (Oct 16, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> View attachment 168290
> 
> 
> This pair has succesfully bred, the male is a 100% het Albino RPM/JAG, female is the Albino Darwin. It was the females first season laying 9 good eggs. So hopefully an Albino RPM/JAG is only 40 or so days away.
> ...


 
Will this be the first Albino JAG produced in Australia????

Does anyone have pics of Albino Jags? Do they differ much to the normal Albinos?


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## Jason (Oct 16, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> Will this be the first Albino JAG produced in Australia????
> 
> Does anyone have pics of Albino Jags? Do they differ much to the normal Albinos?


 
check out this site... they hatched the first one:

Home?-?Precisionreptiles.com

they look OK IMO


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## Jason (Oct 16, 2010)

looking good colin, planning on getting a few clutches from those hets next season i imagen... will be an awesome site watching that clutch hatch!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 16, 2010)

Jason said:


> check out this site... they hatched the first one:
> 
> Home�-�Precisionreptiles.com
> 
> they look OK IMO


 
No they didnt!









Photos: Henry Piorun


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## Jay84 (Oct 16, 2010)

Oooooh, very nice. More of a contrast of colour, especially at such a young age!


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## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 16, 2010)

Very excited for ya Barra, if you can go anything by Precision Reptiles link....WOW. This is going to change the face of reptile keeping in Australia and imo has been a long-time coming.


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## mungus (Oct 16, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> No they didnt!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Mate.....Congrats !!
Very nice indeed.
Aleks.


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## Perko (Oct 16, 2010)

Any one put Diamonds in the mix yet?
Insane yellow from the pics ive seen.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 21, 2010)

Cant wait to see themat 1-2 years of age, that much contrast as a juvenile says it all......

Will post up pics of the clutch and when they start to hatch.

And yes these will be the first in AUS..........


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## pythrulz (Oct 21, 2010)

Stunning python Nicole all the best with your amazing RPMs barra


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 21, 2010)

Those snakes were bred by Henry Piorun in Canada. The photos have the necessary credit.


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## pythons73 (Oct 21, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Cant wait to see themat 1-2 years of age, that much contrast as a juvenile says it all......
> 
> Will post up pics of the clutch and when they start to hatch.
> 
> And yes these will be the first in AUS..........


Very nice indeed Barra...defiantly own a few of them without hesitation...


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 21, 2010)

Those RPM are looking good Col 
good luck with them.

Heres a video link to Henry Piorun with the albino jag .
[video=youtube;4TFj7tyvHPk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TFj7tyvHPk&feature=related[/video]

and the dead Leucistic carpet python or super form of the jag.
[video=youtube;6ln0eR_yhTM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ln0eR_yhTM[/video]

Another interesting video 
Ruby-eyed Paradox Lucistic Jaguar carpet python part 1 
[video=youtube;l03C42kuDEE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l03C42kuDEE&feature=related[/video]

The Leucistis carpet pythons have been produced many times from jag to jag breedings but all die dew to a fatal genetic condition.
cheers
Roger


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## turtle1 (Oct 22, 2010)

*Jag*

This is how"jags"should be advertised
Coastal x Jungle(Jag)
Coastal x Jungle(RPM)
Coastal x Jungle(Co-Dom)
Coastal x Jungle(Genetically reduced pattern)
CoastalxJungle x Junglexxxx(Nice looking cross)
Coastal Jag(Average Cross looking snake or maybe pure!!!)
But they will get advertised as
*"JUNGLE JAGUAR PYTHON"(same as all of above)
Sounds much better doesnt it and you can then put an extra 0 at the end of the price!Maybe we think our Wildlife departments will one day put "Jaguar" Python on the schedule.Yes they look better than cross breds in the past but that is exactly what they are NICE LOOKING CROSSBREDS with half the offspring being nice also.$4k last season and have heard"quality ones" being offered at under $1k this season already.This could be a new record in price drop.Yes i would have one in my collection but i think i will wait till next season.Personally would not pay a cent more than a quality Jungle.This is just my opinion and a snake is worth what the purchaser is willing to pay for it!*


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## Perko (Oct 22, 2010)

I think you may have heard that from the rest of the APS loosers on welfare trying to slash prices.



turtle1 said:


> and have heard"quality ones" being offered at under $1k this season already.This could be a new record in price drop.Yes i would have one in my collection but i think i will wait till next season.Personally would not pay a cent more than a quality Jungle.This is just my opinion and a snake is worth what the purchaser is willing to pay for it!


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## byron_moses (Oct 22, 2010)

CraigP said:


> I think you may have heard that from the rest of the APS loosers on welfare trying to slash prices.


 lol


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## twoplanes (Oct 22, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Cant wait to see themat 1-2 years of age, that much contrast as a juvenile says it all......
> 
> Will post up pics of the clutch and when they start to hatch.
> 
> And yes these will be the first in AUS..........



Nice work Barra, can't wait to see pics.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 22, 2010)

Hummmm, nice prices: Currently available - Henry Piorun Reptiles Be interesting to see what prices will be asked on our albino carpets?


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## mrs_davo (Oct 24, 2010)

This is one I kept back from clutch last season. It is reduced pattern to some extent, the color is bland as yet with not much yellow/caramel.

But it is 100% Morelia Spilota WcDowelli (coastal carpet). I picked this breeding from a very unsuspected pair of snakes 2 years ago.
The pair were ordinary type, male was hypo type & female dark with white background. The first breeding 2008, the female was crossed with 2 different males, 1 ordinary type first, then the hypo type at end. The 30 egg clutch resulted in @@ being normal & 8 being hypo.

This was when I first realised that 1 female can produce in the one clutch different colors from different males. The following season, being 2009 the same female was mated with the same hypo male & only this male, which resulted in 32 eggs & all HYPOS.

This little girl now 9months is the result of select breeding when you can pick up traits from breeding.
She is not great but is 100% McDoweli & with more work & crossing I am eager to see what comes.

Cheers Ian.

keep this thread going. it is great.


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## mrs_davo (Oct 24, 2010)

*Forgot to add photos*





Ian had a brian freeze and forgot to add the photos.....:lol:

ta
Paula


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 24, 2010)

Wow very nice Paula


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## pythons unleashed (Oct 24, 2010)

This is how worm is go Ian.

cheers


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## thals (Oct 24, 2010)

Those coastals are just beautiful Paula, wouldn't mind a coupla those


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## Addam (Oct 24, 2010)

dam there is some nice snakes here  very interesting morphs indeed. Cant wait to start purchasing some of these lines myself


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## mrs_davo (Oct 24, 2010)

pythons unleashed said:


> View attachment 169460
> View attachment 169459
> View attachment 169458
> 
> ...


 






Hi there Nev, Here is photo of Worms Sister.

The Juvie shown previous photo is from Bitchy & Pink.
Many Cheers.


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## Greenmad (Oct 24, 2010)

Here is a pair of mine i brought as atherton hatchies but they dont look like athertons to me much anymore.


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## pythons unleashed (Oct 24, 2010)

> Hi there Nev, Here is photo of Worms Sister.
> 
> The Juvie shown previous photo is from Bitchy & Pink.
> Many Cheers.


 


I think they're coming along well considering what they're parents where. Male I got from Brett the other day.

cheers


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## Jason (Oct 24, 2010)

Greenmad said:


> Here is a pair of mine i brought as atherton hatchies but they dont look like athertons to me much anymore.


 
sensational animals! absolute screamers! i do agree though, more darwin or possibly capie than athertons... either way WOW... want to part with them?


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 24, 2010)

Greenmad said:


> Here is a pair of mine i brought as atherton hatchies but they dont look like athertons to me much anymore.




Ryan they look like prossie x darwins .
Nice lookers though ,,,


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## pythons unleashed (Oct 24, 2010)

> Any one put Diamonds in the mix yet?
> Insane yellow from the pics ive seen. ​


 


some of the 50/50 diamond x jungles I just sold.


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## Greenmad (Oct 24, 2010)

Hey roger thats what ive been thinking.


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## mrs_davo (Oct 24, 2010)

thals said:


> Those coastals are just beautiful Paula, wouldn't mind a coupla those



We hope to produce only one clutch of coastal carpets this season, but they should be even better than previous, as I have put Daddy Hypo (Pink with Female Caramel Ruby).
It is too early to say yet but everthing looks OK. They Will not be as Full RPMs that others have on offer.

If interested send us a PM.

Cheers. Ian.


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## Perko (Oct 25, 2010)

Since this is a Co-Dom thread, i was hoping for some DxJ jags.
Thanks anyway.



pythons unleashed said:


> some of the 50/50 diamond x jungles I just sold.
> 
> View attachment 169475
> View attachment 169476
> View attachment 169477


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 25, 2010)

Greenmad said:


> Here is a pair of mine i brought as atherton hatchies but they dont look like athertons to me much anymore.


 I thought the locale was a bit confusing...
As Roger said definitely some prossy in them. Stunners for sure!
One of mine as a comparison.
She's gravid as we speak...


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## Camo (Oct 25, 2010)

He just had another shed and looks even better.

Taken with no flash. Pictures cant capture his true colour.







Cameron


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## fishead (Oct 25, 2010)

Alright, about time I showed him off I guess.
Meet MasterBlaster!


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 25, 2010)

Smoking hot RPM .


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## Kurto (Oct 25, 2010)

wow! nice one Steve!


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## thals (Oct 25, 2010)

That snake is phenomenal fishead, clean contrasting patterns, am a bit in love I reckon


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## jahan (Oct 25, 2010)

That is one hot looking snake fishhead.


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## fishead (Oct 25, 2010)

He's shed once or twice since those pics and has developed more yellow. This line seems to really hang onto that style of head pattern doesn't it. actually his perfectly concentric (if that's the word) head pattern is what I like best about him - horse stance ninja silhouette pattern haha


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## impulse reptiles (Oct 25, 2010)

Wow...Nice one Fishhead.


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## cement (Oct 25, 2010)

Greenmad said:


> Here is a pair of mine i brought as atherton hatchies but they dont look like athertons to me much anymore.



I think the best looking snakes I have seen here is the Master Blaster and Barramundis white MD, but though you are desperately trying to justify this new turn in the "hobby", the calls of 95% honesty etc are just bulldust in my opinion.
Out of all the snakes pictured, only a few have actually stated what they are. Sure they are called RPM/jags etc but what is it? Never a call on the actual cross. The quote above shows just how easily it is to not know.
I may be wrong but personally it feels from reading this entire thread that there is a lot of backslapping and grandstanding taking place ,but that few of you actually truly know the exact heritage of your animals.
The American Nick who posted earlier has nailed it.
There will be some nice looking "insert sales pitch here (face melters)" animals produced but it will be at a cost.
What will be, will be. No good, no bad just what is.

How about you label your animals what they are ie jungle x diamond x MD or whatever, instead of just RPM or Jag? At least that way you will be keeping in line with your call of honest heritage, makes it easier for the average joe like me who couldn't give a toss about keeping up with all the genetic jargon.


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## nico77 (Oct 26, 2010)

steve thats a stunner mate how old is it ?

cheers nico


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## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 26, 2010)

cement said:


> i think the best looking snakes i have seen here is the master blaster and barramundis white md, but though you are desperately trying to justify this new turn in the "hobby", the calls of 95% honesty etc are just bulldust in my opinion.
> Out of all the snakes pictured, only a few have actually stated what they are. Sure they are called rpm/jags etc but what is it? Never a call on the actual cross. The quote above shows just how easily it is to not know.
> I may be wrong but personally it feels from reading this entire thread that there is a lot of backslapping and grandstanding taking place ,but that few of you actually truly know the exact heritage of your animals.
> The american nick who posted earlier has nailed it.
> ...



lol


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## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 26, 2010)

Cameron and fishead....absolute stunners guys.


----------



## Perko (Oct 26, 2010)

+1



Jungleman said:


> Cameron and fishead....absolute stunners guys.


----------



## Colin (Oct 26, 2010)

cement said:


> Out of all the snakes pictured, only a few have actually stated what they are. Sure they are called RPM/jags etc but what is it? Never a call on the actual cross.
> 
> How about you label your animals what they are ie jungle x diamond x MD or whatever, instead of just RPM or Jag? At least that way you will be keeping in line with your call of honest heritage, makes it easier for the average joe like me who couldn't give a toss about keeping up with all the genetic jargon.



Hi Graham, good call.. I honestly feel the pics posted in this thread and others with a brief abbreviation of what they are is just that.. an abbreviation.

I fullly support giving actual buyers of any of my animals the best information on the heritage as I can, and will be supplying a "pedigree" of the parents of any "rpm", morph etc and where possible even going back to the grandparents if I bred them. I would also encourage any buyers to continue with this informnation to anyone they sell offspring to so each snake has some sort of "identity" to guide people exactly what it is.

If we are going to go down the morph and hybrid path I feel as much disclosure as possible on the lineages is a step in the right direction.

That said.. its not only morph breeders guilty of not labeling animals correctly and many people just call animals (for example) a "diamond" when it may be an intergrade or something else involved. maybe specific labeling of all animals would be a step forward for the whole hobby in general. I feel theres room in the hobby for both morphs and pure lines and the sooner everyone works together in areas of labeling animals for what they are the better for everyone. 

this is a cross between a (co-dominant) coastal rpm x albino darwin female and is what I call - rpm het for albino. 

male first pic and female in second


----------



## Jay84 (Oct 26, 2010)

fishead said:


> alright, about time i showed him off i guess.
> Meet masterblaster!




a-m-a-z-i-n-g !!!!!!


----------



## spiderdan (Oct 26, 2010)

NickM said:


> Australian keepers will now have to deal with all the same problems we have in the US and Europe. I understand there is tremendous desire/demand for morphs , but there is a serious negative side to it as well.
> 
> The problem is that you will see huge demand for Jungle/jags, but nearly zero demand for the mutt siblings that hatch alongside with them. Your herp market will never bee the same.
> 
> ...



Well said. 
It is scary but exciting time as all these new morfs com along.
People are creating some beautiful snakes and I love them but I hope there will be no consequences.


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## pythons73 (Oct 26, 2010)

Absolutely STUNNING Steve and Colin..I totally agree 100% what you said Cement...Unfortunately some will not disclose what they actually are...


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## fishead (Oct 26, 2010)

Hey Nico, he's a yearling and is a 50% jungle jag from the SXR line but bred by someone else (won't mention his name in case he doesn't want it out there).


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 26, 2010)

fishead said:


> Hey Nico, he's a yearling and is a 50% jungle jag from the SXR line but bred by someone else (won't mention his name in case he doesn't want it out there).


 Either way, its a cracker for sure!!! Good to see you back, its been a couple of years hasn't it, or do I miss your posts...lol
Like the new GT Avatar or so it looks!!


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## fishead (Oct 26, 2010)

Hey Scotto, good to cyber see you too. 
Yeah I don't say much but still keen as on the herps. 
Yep a GT there, been into the popper chuckin' lately. Great fun but very arm stretching on 130lb braid


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 26, 2010)

fishead said:


> Hey Scotto, good to cyber see you too.
> Yeah I don't say much but still keen as on the herps.
> Yep a GT there, been into the popper chuckin' lately. Great fun but very arm stretching on 130lb braid


 Love throwing a popper here and there myself! Try throwing a fly mate.. that'll stretch ya...

Take care mate, great to see how that cracker grows!


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## Camo (Oct 27, 2010)

Great RPM Steve.


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## Camo (Oct 27, 2010)

cement said:


> How about you label your animals what they are ie jungle x diamond x MD or whatever, instead of just RPM or Jag? At least that way you will be keeping in line with your call of honest heritage, makes it easier for the average joe like me who couldn't give a toss about keeping up with all the genetic jargon.


My guy is a pure Coastal Carpet Python.


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## Moreliavridis (Oct 27, 2010)

nice looking snake fishhead!


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## fishead (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks Jason.
I was just renewing my licence and had a look at the 2010 species list on the DECC website and there's a jag pictured at the top of it. It's a cracker too!


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## ihaveherps (Oct 27, 2010)

Camo said:


> My guy is a pure Coastal Carpet Python.



here we go..... you cant prove they are pure coastal, Jan Eric tried to sell that idea, but then disappeared before he was supposed to write his tell all article... he founded the Jags from his lines. Seilling siblings produced by your Jag to a coastal, as being nothing more than pure coastal, would be misleading....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 27, 2010)

The lines available in Australia are not pure Coastal.


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## ihaveherps (Oct 27, 2010)

thankyou for your info CP.com.au.... So the debate over the origins of the morph need not come into the equation. They should sell well enough on their merits alone, i dont see the need for things to be debatably pure, they will be able to carve their own niche in the market for what they are.


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 28, 2010)

i think the only person that would possibly have an idea on what the original jags were that came to Oz would be the smuggler. tracing back the time line and a bit of maths and it looks like they would most likely be either coastal or jungle jags.
i purchased mine as a coastal jag a couple years ago and the parents of that jag was "apparently" a coastal jag/coastal as well, with previous history being a mystery.
So if this is the case,if the original "Australian Jag/s" was a jungle jag that would make mine possibly a 88% coastal jag or if the original was coastal jag ,mine would possibly be 100% coastal jag.(i guess we will never find out unless the smuggler speaks up).So ,in theory, i'll be putting a coastal over my girl,so that would possibly make the bubs (at worst) 94% coastals.
i think that is pretty close going off the info i have recieved,but i doubt we will never know for sure,and before all the IPE's jump down my throat,notice i said "possibly" alot.
cheers
simon


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## Camo (Oct 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i think the only person that would possibly have an idea on what the original jags were that came to Oz would be the smuggler. tracing back the time line and a bit of maths and it looks like they would most likely be either coastal or jungle jags.
> i purchased mine as a coastal jag a couple years ago and the parents of that jag was "apparently" a coastal jag/coastal as well, with previous history being a mystery.
> So if this is the case,if the original "Australian Jag/s" was a jungle jag that would make mine possibly a 88% coastal jag or if the original was coastal jag ,mine would possibly be 100% coastal jag.(i guess we will never find out unless the smuggler speaks up).So ,in theory, i'll be putting a coastal over my girl,so that would possibly make the bubs (at worst) 94% coastals.
> i think that is pretty close going off the info i have recieved,but i doubt we will never know for sure,and before all the IPE's jump down my throat,notice i said "possibly" alot.
> ...


Thanks Simon. Just goes to show there can and is coastal RPM lines here. 

Appreciate it.

Cameron


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## mrs_davo (Nov 8, 2010)

I can't wait to see some of this years breeding within Australia.
More PICS. please


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## mrs_davo (Nov 10, 2010)

Simon,
Why do people call them JAGS though is got me beat. As Camo says RPMs is more better definition.
They are not a Jaguar coloration but are reduced pattern & really that is all.
Cheers Ian.


slimebo said:


> i think the only person that would possibly have an idea on what the original jags were that came to Oz would be the smuggler. tracing back the time line and a bit of maths and it looks like they would most likely be either coastal or jungle jags.
> i purchased mine as a coastal jag a couple years ago and the parents of that jag was "apparently" a coastal jag/coastal as well, with previous history being a mystery.
> So if this is the case,if the original "Australian Jag/s" was a jungle jag that would make mine possibly a 88% coastal jag or if the original was coastal jag ,mine would possibly be 100% coastal jag.(i guess we will never find out unless the smuggler speaks up).So ,in theory, i'll be putting a coastal over my girl,so that would possibly make the bubs (at worst) 94% coastals.
> i think that is pretty close going off the info i have recieved,but i doubt we will never know for sure,and before all the IPE's jump down my throat,notice i said "possibly" alot.
> ...


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## Kurto (Nov 10, 2010)

ian_davo said:


> Simon,
> Why do people call them JAGS though is got me beat. As Camo says RPMs is more better definition.
> They are not a Jaguar coloration but are reduced pattern & really that is all.
> Cheers Ian.


 
I do believe the first fellow to hatch one out named them "Jaguar" Carpets


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## Kurto (Nov 19, 2010)

heres a weeeee little one!!


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 19, 2010)

That a real nice one Kurt ,
Heres the male i purchased from Simon .
Ill be using him over a few of my best females this coming season.
Roger


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## Kurto (Nov 19, 2010)

Good luck with him mate! I've still got a while to wait before my little fella will be ready!


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 19, 2010)

Very nice Roger.
Are you able to tell me (via PM if you want) who the Dam was for his clutch.
Would be very interested to find out if our fella is related...

Cheers.


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 19, 2010)

just wondering guys are there any morph inlands out there?


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 19, 2010)

Cheers Kurt 

Shaun ,
Venus is the mother .


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## Perko (Nov 20, 2010)

Very nice Roger & Kurt.


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## Kurto (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks Craig! I'm stoked!


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks Craig .
Shaun , I believe my male is a 50%jungle RPM .

cheers
Roger


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 25, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Shaun , I believe my male is a 50%jungle RPM .



Ah k, yeah I think ours was from a different clutch, was told it was pure coastal.


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