# Help Chicken Beak Went Through My Snakes Neck



## ashman07 (Nov 2, 2006)

My diamond has not been feeding so i tried to force feed him with a bantam chicken head and it went straight through the side of his neck. The wound is only about 4mm long and there is no blood. What should i do.


----------



## gillsy (Nov 2, 2006)

Vet!!!!!


----------



## gillsy (Nov 2, 2006)

how long hadn't he eaten for


----------



## cris (Nov 2, 2006)

vet asap is all i can think, if it isnt bleeding hopefully will be fine:?


----------



## Camo (Nov 2, 2006)

I would say vet.

Cameron


----------



## adbacus (Nov 2, 2006)

Definitely a vet. You do not want to risk a mouth rot


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 2, 2006)

THANKS, we don't have any reptile vets so i am taking him to a normal vet first thing.


----------



## sxc_celly (Nov 2, 2006)

How long since it hadnt eaten?


----------



## cris (Nov 2, 2006)

umm i woulndt be to sure about a normal vet, i would drive to someone who has atleast some experience or knowledge of reptiles JMO what do others think?


----------



## darkangel (Nov 2, 2006)

why not take it to a vet now? most have an after hours vet if needed. if it had been a family member that it happened to you would take them to the hospital why not your pet?


----------



## darkangel (Nov 2, 2006)

wouldn't a normal vet be better than nothing for the time being?


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 2, 2006)

he hasn't eaten for 3 months . He last meal was 2 pinky rats. I can't get there now.


----------



## sxc_celly (Nov 2, 2006)

I agree. How long hadnt he eaten? The can go without food for like 2 months. You should NEVER force fee your snake!! You should take him to the vet now, and to a vet with some knowledge of reptiles. Call a few places.


----------



## sxc_celly (Nov 2, 2006)

You should have taken him to a vet after 3 months of not eating if you were worried, not forced food down its throat!


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 2, 2006)

we have no reptile vets at ALL


----------



## darkangel (Nov 2, 2006)

maybe give a vet a call tonight and ask for some advice and see where they suggest u go


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 2, 2006)

i am on the phone as we speak


----------



## adbacus (Nov 2, 2006)

Try the Karingal Vet Hospital - 03 9789 3444


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 2, 2006)

i rang them and they don't have an after hours service but i got through to the after hour vet help. They don't know anything about reptiles but sugested i leave it until tomorow and the see a reptile vet.


----------



## darkangel (Nov 2, 2006)

ok cool. hows the lil fella doin?


----------



## sxc_celly (Nov 3, 2006)

any vet instead of force feeding it


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 3, 2006)

yeah he looks fine. Still moving around flicking his tongue.


----------



## fisherman (Nov 3, 2006)

sxc_celly said:


> any vet instead of force feeding it



if you think so.......


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 3, 2006)

that is the only thing i don't like about wright my problems on here. That is that people state the obvious. No ofence to anyone though. Thanks for the help.


----------



## cris (Nov 3, 2006)

ashman07 said:


> yeah he looks fine. Still moving around flicking his tongue.



Snakes are pretty tough animals if it hasnt hit anything vital i cant see it being a major problem but i think you still need to get it to a suitable vet. Atleast whoever you called admitted that they didnt know, its when someone starts pretending to know what to do that your snake could end up in trouble.

No point saying mistakes have been made, its already done now. Its a bit like when someone lets a snake escape, you tell them how to find it, no point telling them they shouldnt have let it go to start with.


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 3, 2006)

Thanks all, I am off to bed and i just hope he is still ok in the morning.


----------



## junglejane (Nov 3, 2006)

Hi, 
just wondering how your snake is? I would of been so freaked out!!! If you are going to force feed your snake, surely mice and skinks, would be best?? At least then no sharp pointy bits. You've scared the crap outta me, i'm never feeding my snake day old chicks even!! Anyway hope everything is ok, and she starts eating again with no problems...
Jane


----------



## Tatelina (Nov 3, 2006)

my first thought was betadine.. Sorry to hear that! good luck!


----------



## Vincent (Nov 3, 2006)

He'll be right, I've seen snakes with their stomachs ripped open from possums that recovered no probs. Their tougher than a lot of people give them credit for.


----------



## Xenogenesis (Nov 3, 2006)

why on earth would you force feed a snake something sharp and hard? i'd be throwing pinky rats in there.


----------



## Peregrinus (Nov 3, 2006)

hehe yeah odd to be trying to shove it down like that, no offense ashman, i would have asked for help about helping it feed before i asked for help on how do i fix the hole in its neck  hope he comes good asap!


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 3, 2006)

*Yes you have*



ashman07 said:


> we have no reptile vets at ALL



What are you talking about Ashman? There are plenty of reptile vets around the place and I believe that there are actually a couple near your side of the burbs. There is apparently a good one near Narree Warren.

Over winter snakes don't tend to eat and I have a few that had not eaten for 3-4 months. How old is the snake again?

Even if there are no vets around IMO if you have animals then they deserve to be taken to the vet even if it means putting yourself out. Ask the oldies to take you a.s.a.p.

Not having a go at you because I know you have trouble with transport but............

Get some sort of betadine type product on it as a temporary measure to stop any impending infections


----------



## WoodyB (Nov 3, 2006)

I cant beilive you force fed your snake a sharp object.
Did you try any other methods of feeding beforehand?
ie - little skinks.

Anyway my advice would be get him to a Vet.. and if thiers none around, atleast make the trip into Melb this weekend for him


----------



## Jason (Nov 3, 2006)

mistakes happen, hopefully it will work out for you and im sure the snake will be ok! as for the members telling them how stupid it was how about you dont bother posting in this thread, the original post was asking for help not for you all to attack and make comments on how stupid it was to do! obviously they realise that it wasnt a good idea now so give them some slack!!! i realise not all of you are just atacking but atleast they came here wanting help!


----------



## Snow1369 (Nov 3, 2006)

How's he doing now?


----------



## dellywatts (Nov 3, 2006)

Hey go to this vet. They are in Mleb, a bit of a hike from Frankston but they specialise in reptiles:

Warranwood Veterinary Centre
1 Colman Rd Warranwood VIC 3134
ph: (03) 9879 0900 Veterinary Surgeons


----------



## timthevet (Nov 3, 2006)

probably needs a couple of stitches. Major problem with oesophagus healing is strictures - leading to a smaller diameter which could pose a problem to snakes as they ingest their food whole.


----------



## MrBredli (Nov 3, 2006)

Ashman, if the need ever arises again, you would be much better off force feeding suitable sized mouse or rat tails, lubricated with something like butter. They go down very easily with minimal risk to the snake. Just be very gentle though, and don't force it down.


----------



## Rennie (Nov 3, 2006)

Ashman: I hope your snake is alright, I also hope you didn't take half of the criticism here too seriously.
Keep us updated.



sxc_celly said:


> I agree. How long hadnt he eaten? The can go without food for like 2 months. You should NEVER force fee your snake!! You should take him to the vet now, and to a vet with some knowledge of reptiles. Call a few places.



You might be interested to hear (completely different as it was mature, I don't know the age of Ashman's diamond but anyway...) I read a story of a vet looking after a wild carpet that was gravid when found, when it layed its clutch of eggs it lost 1/3 of its body weight and then refused to eat for the next year and a half with no apparent ill effects to its health - I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND TRYING THIS AT HOME!

Also force/assist-feeding (there is a difference) is not all that dangerous usually, and a bit better than letting the snake starve to death. I'm no expert though, I've only had to assist once fortunately, when a yearling childreni hadn't eaten for about 4 months, and I had no problems. It was just what she needed to get her appetite back, she started to take mice with more enthusiasm than ever before the very next week. I'm certainly not saying anyone should try it without research or even experienced assistance if possible, and most importantly trying other methods to get it eating first. And no you don't just shove it down its throat, its a bit more deliate than that and I'm sure Ashman was trying to be careful, but accidents happen, better luck next time. (I hope I don't come accross as a know-it-all, I've only been keeping for a few years and we're all still learning)


----------



## The Devil (Nov 3, 2006)

Depending of the age of the diamond not eating for the past 3 months is nothing unusal. My diamond male stops feeding in February and doesn't start again until Ocober. Perfectly normal.
As you say its normal meal is pink rats I'm guessing it is still quite small, therefor why on earth would you try and force feed a chicken head and not a pink rat.
Should the diamond be 18 or 20 months old again not feeding over winter is normal as that is about the time and age where the breeding hormones kick in.

A small puncture wound like that will most likely heal all by itself, keep an eye on it and maybe a bit of disinfectant


----------



## meshe1969 (Nov 3, 2006)

Here is a website that has herp vets listed state by state.

http://www.wolfwoodwares.com.au/rept2.html


----------



## Zeus_the_beardie (Nov 3, 2006)

i just found a vet off that page from coffs harbour YEA    ,

hope the snake is fine and gets properly treated


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 3, 2006)

His wound has completely healed and i am having trouble finding the cut now. I have been putting bettadine on it. I rang my vet and he is not in to wednesday. He is having an injection of baytril tomorrow from a guy that knows a lot about this sort of thing. Hopefully there is no infection. He is still happy by the looks of it. He is only 6-7 months old. 

For all the people telling me how stupid i was to try feed it a chicken head, I did this as i thought the beak would slide down his throte easyly. The vet said it should be ok to wait and even then nothing can realy be done as the wound is already healed so a stitch is pointless.thanks to all the HELPFUL people on here,
Thanks again Ash.

I'll keep you informed.


----------



## Nome (Nov 3, 2006)

Please never force feed your snake anything ever again. No one should ever force feed a snake without being shown...assist feeding is much safer and easily taught, but also it is something that an experienced herper needs to show you. 

Anyone reading this new to keeping - never attempt this, force or assist feeding is only something experienced people should do and if you are worried about the snake not eating, seek advice from an experienced herper before ever attempting force feeding anything at all to a snake. It is very stressful and dangerous for your animal. And I mean anything, not only sharp dangerous things like a chooks head.

I'm happy you posted up ashman, at least others can learn from your mistake.

I wish somehow that all this was covered in a book or something and some sort of exam was given before licenses were handed out for reptiles, it would save much grief for the owner, but especially the animal.


----------



## greyfox (Nov 3, 2006)

Nome said:


> Please never force feed your snake anything ever again. No one should ever force feed a snake without being shown...assist feeding is much safer and easily taught, but also it is something that an experienced herper needs to show you.
> 
> Anyone reading this new to keeping - never attempt this, force or assist feeding is only something experienced people should do and if you are worried about the snake not eating, seek advice from an experienced herper before ever attempting force feeding anything at all to a snake. It is very stressful and dangerous for your animal. And I mean anything, not only sharp dangerous things like a chooks head.
> 
> ...



hi i read up on this and am happy ash's snake is ok. do you need licenses for snakes in aussie country? you dont need them in the uk but you do need them here if you are housing venomous animals.


----------



## motman440 (Nov 4, 2006)

its good to here your beloved snakes okay.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 4, 2006)

why do you pick a chicken head out of all things to force feed with?


----------



## snakes4me2 (Nov 4, 2006)

If you are in Frankston take him to vet vet opposite the karingal hub, he does a bit with reptiles im sure


----------



## snakes4me2 (Nov 4, 2006)

read the whole thread next time :lol:


----------



## Rennie (Nov 4, 2006)

Ashman - very good news, I hope its all good now 

greyfox - yes, each state is different, some states allow you to keep a few common species without a licence but you need a licence for almost all reptiles here, not just venomous. Also, to keep any non-Australian reptiles you basically have to be a zoo, only natives.


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 4, 2006)

It's good to here that everything is fine Ashman. Hopefully we have all learnt a lesson here and I guess with 1 mistake many will be able to learn what not to do. Accidents can and will happen, it's how we learn by them is what counts.


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 4, 2006)

Well today he had his injection of baytril. The only thing we have to worry about now is infection. Here is a picture of him and just to clarify things, he is not a Cross. He is a high yellow diamond from Daniel Cull. Thanks


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 4, 2006)

*Cross*



ashman07 said:


> Well today he had his injection of baytril. The only thing we have to worry about now is infection. Here is a picture of him and just to clarify things, he is not a Cross. He is a high yellow diamond from Daniel Cull. Thanks



Hi Ashman,

He looks like a cross.............well I should rephrase that................he looks a little cross with you.:lol:


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 4, 2006)

lol, here is a picture of his sister.


----------



## Rennie (Nov 5, 2006)

She looks nice too but I think he will be a stunner! Well done


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

i believe force feeding is fine but at a very last resort but why a chicken head? it should have been a mouse or rat something like that. i just hope people learn something from this.

i have seen a very experienced person force feed a pinkie to a children’s and the tweezers went through the neck all we could do is use a nontoxic superglue and some oil based beterdine the snake ended up dieing but was it the wound we not sure the snake was a hatchling and hasn’t eaten before i think 3 4 months and it was very un healthy.

the point is even those that do it on regular bases can make mistakes don’t let every one beat u up over this i just hope you have learned from your mistake


----------



## rockman (Nov 5, 2006)

ashman07 said:


> My diamond has not been feeding so i tried to force feed him with a bantam chicken head and it went straight through the side of his neck. The wound is only about 4mm long and there is no blood. What should i do.



Stop keeping snakes ! If you don't know what you are doing , why harm animals ??? It hasn't eaten for 3 months , so you shove a batam's head down it's throat , you must be very experienced to be force feeding snakes . Good luck


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

rockman said:


> Stop keeping snakes ! If you don't know what you are doing , why harm animals ??? It hasn't eaten for 3 months , so you shove a batam's head down it's throat , you must be very experienced to be force feeding snakes . Good luck


 
give the guy a break he made a mistake and im sure you have before just like me and a lot of other people on this site. it is comments like this that deter newbie’s from asking questions and coming to us for help. we don’t need it here i am pretty sure he has learned a lesson and i don’t think he will be doing it again in a hurry and im sure a lot of other newbie’s and oldies alike have learned something from this as well so if you have anything to say at all it might as well be helpful. this is not a personal attack it is to every one that thinks the don’t make mistakes and dish out criticism when someone else makes one:x 

Cheers Matt


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

i just want to know why picked a chicken head, the reason behind a chicken head? because force feeding and chicken head would never seem comman sense? i just want to know the thinking behind it? even if i was a newbie i dont think i would even of thought about a chicken head?


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

All is well and good to tell a person they are wrong force feeding a chicken head after the fact. Where is the responsibility of the person selling the snake to provide as much information as possible about the animal. Information about shedding, feeding, housing, heating and general husbandry and health of the different reptile species should be spoken about and addressed prior to the sale of the animal. Yes, we all learn from our mistakes, but these mistakes should be minimised by providing education and knowledge from those of us who wish to sell our excess stock. It is our duty of care to the animal and the buyer to provide this service whether it be through a fact sheet provided with the sale or follow up phone calls or emails. We cannot stop all mistakes from occurring as we are all still learning about these wonderful animals, so lets help others who want to keep reptiles from making the same mistakes we did and going through the worry of losing a reptile through nothing more than lack of knowledge and inexperience. They made a mistake and they did the right thing by getting advice straight away and putting a post on this site, lets not forget about the people out there who would sooner let the animal die in a horrid way without a second thought just to save a vet bill. Lets not deter people from seeking advice and guidance when mistakes are made.


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> i just want to know why picked a chicken head, the reason behind a chicken head? because force feeding and chicken head would never seem comman sense? i just want to know the thinking behind it? even if i was a newbie i dont think i would even of thought about a chicken head?


 

yes i know,:? but common sence can only be learned by the mistakes of others and our selves
and i think we all have learned somthing to day.


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

well said alumba....

@ ashman, your snakes are nice ones m8...hope your male is ok now...


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

and to sparticus...education @ the time of buying a herp would be great, unfortunately with the ever increasing popularity of keeping herps, even the pet shops are just in it for a quick $ and dont often know **** all...


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

im thinking about force feeding? what should i use? - mouse, rat, chicken head?
ill take the chicken head.

it wouldnt of been a mistake if ya just think about it for a half a second.
its called common sense!


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

alumba said:


> yes i know,:? but common sence can only be learned by the mistakes of others and our selves
> and i think we all have learned somthing to day.


 
and sarcasm is not a nice thing


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 5, 2006)

Just to clear things up for the ................ people on here. I have tried force feeding him a pinkie rat and he wouldn't take it. As my other sankes eat bantams reguraly, i thought I would try him on one, so I just used the head. SIMPLE MISTAKE.


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

I am a realist and it will never be that way,but when I read someone has made a simple mistake and reaches out for advice and they are basically told what were you thinking doing that It makes me think back to some of the people I have dealt with and how good they were.Always happy to help before and after the sale.I feel that money is an insentive and some people have decided to keep reptiles for that purpose,but who can begrudge people making some extra cash with the cost of living the way it is at the moment.I just believe whether your in it for cash or the love of the animals we still need to provide a service that is of high standard.The reptiles have gone off in a big way and petshops will more then likely start to sell them and that is all part of expansion of the reptile trade in NSW and everyone has the right to enjoy reptiles as much as the rest of us.Lets do our best to provide a service that looks after everyones interests.


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

what do u mean it wouldnt take it?? did you work it all the way down to its stomic? did it regurge?


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

thats true sparticus, but im talking about the petshops that think they will jump on the popularity of selling herps (the way its goin) and yet there are quite a few petshops that i have been to that have started selling herps, and they not absolutely nothing...I know more than them...lol

im just stating that you said they should be providing us herpers (or more so newbies herpers) with as much knowledge and advice that the shop knows about a specific herp being brought, but quite often the shop doesnt even know about em...IMO to become a licensed dealer (pet shop etc) they should have more stricter requirements...


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

well, i wouldnt of tried the chicken head after the first failed attempted of force feeding it.


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 5, 2006)

I tried force feeding 4 times with pinkie rats.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

should of stopped trying after the second time, and take it to the vet.


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

Reptilian,I could not agree more.I wasn't defending petshops.I have been to some that are dodgy and some that meet the highest of standards,its the same in the reptile keeping arena some are great to deal with and some are not.I think I might of strayed from the main concern here and that is the injured snake and its owner.I just wanted to voice that we are not all looking after those that buy from us and lets put a bit of onus on ourselves who are selling the reptiles to do more.I think I might go back to my own little dreams of a utopian society and that life can be fair.


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

lol, yer i couldnt agree more m8...


----------



## rockman (Nov 5, 2006)

Everyone says that we should be nice because he made a mistake ! Has he asked for advice on here about how long they can go for without food , What about how to force feed it ? What about how many times to i try to force feed it ? A quick check in the previous topic's probably would have answered his questions ! Have a quick look at the people that are still here posting , probably 5 % have been here longer then 3 months . Yes people make mistakes , but try to get advice first to learn how to do the right thing , before you make the mistake .


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

fair comment, but IMO whats done is doen...nothin we can do but help him out now...no point bagging him out for what has happened...We are here to give advice, not bag people out or give negative comments about what has happened..he may or may not (i dunno) have read and or asked for advice before hand, but he is askin for advice now, so lets give it to him...focus on the positive, his snake is and prolly will be ok, it could have been worse...


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

rockman said:


> Have a quick look at the people that are still here posting , probably 5 % have been here longer then 3 months .QUOTE]
> 
> what do you mean by that?


----------



## rockman (Nov 5, 2006)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> rockman said:
> 
> 
> > Have a quick look at the people that are still here posting , probably 5 % have been here longer then 3 months .QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

just because people havent been apart of this forum for very long, dosent mean they havent been keeping herps for that long.
do you think when people buy reptiles, they get a computer hooked up to the net and a get an account with APS at the same time?


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

There is difference between being on this site for 3 months and the length of time people have kept reptiles,this site is not an indication of how long people have had reptiles just how long they have been a member of this site.I'll ask a questiono you believe it was feeding the chicken head that caused the damage to the snake or the technique in force feeding that caused the damage?I personally could not of thought that would of happened using a chicken head. If people get ridiculed when they post an inccident no wonder they don't ask questions.I never said the person in question was not part to blame I was just trying to put the point across that there was need to be hard on them and basically that the people jumping on him have probably had inncidents occur themselves( I know I have made some beauties myself) but I always learnt from them and had the support of the reptile keepers around me not their ridicule.Inncidents happen he will learn by them as will we all.I am sure we have all learnt something from this persons inccident.


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

still there is no need to ridicule people for making 1 mistake sparticus i agree wid u 100%


----------



## Nome (Nov 5, 2006)

Do all the people posting here (most seem new to snakes) realize that you should NEVER FORCE FEED A SNAKE ANYTHING?

Not just a sharp chicken head, not anything dangerous, but ANYTHING AT ALL unless you are experienced or have been shown.

Force feeding is unecessary, dangerous and stressful and you should only attempt this if you have a few years under your belt and have been shown how to.

Do people realize this? Do you ashman know not to try force feeding any kind of food again?

All people need to do is use common sense, post a question somewhere or call a breeder if your snake isn't eating, never ever attempt force feeding.

In the last couple of months, seeing the influx of people into the hobby and on this site, I have felt our hobby is doomed. Many snakes are sick or dying due to the owner's mistakes and new people are often doing things that are just plain out common sense. A usual mistake is having a snake that has a million problems with feeding, yet they handle it everyday. Why the hell do people do this? Is a snake worth that little to people now...that you would rather risk your pet's health than restrain yourselves.

Rockman is right, the reason things are going to ***** is because so many of the experienced people have left due to frustration and insane advice is being given out by people that have hardly had any keeping experience.


----------



## zard (Nov 5, 2006)

rockman said:


> whiteyluvsrum said:
> 
> 
> > What is meant by that is , the whole site has changed to 95 % of newbies that seem to think that they know everthing there is to know in a matter of a month . Most of the guys that have been here for a year or two have gone and this is whats left . This is / was a reptile forum / site where most things discussed where reptile related , now it seems it's mostly other stuff with a little bit of reptile discussion . Have a look at the topic's or posts , mabye i'm wrong ??? You never stop learning about things , i suppose it's just if you want to learn is a different matter .
> ...


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 5, 2006)

*Remember*

Just remember one thing here!!!!!!

Ashman did not have to post this thread at all. I believe he made the post in the attempt to help someone in a similiar position. He has learnt by his mistake and hoped to help someone else by sharing his experience.

Don't give him grief about it. All you are doing is putting people off by posting future posts.

Everyone has made mistakes in their life and you are full of crap if you believe that you have not.

Sorry for my rant but I have had a few red wines.......................but come tomorrow I would say exactly the same thing.

Ashman I hope to ctahc up one day and share herp stories. Give the guy a break guys.:|


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

its not hard to keep reptiles, its easier to keep em than dogs.
just got to use connon sense.


----------



## zard (Nov 5, 2006)

Nome said:


> Do all the people posting here (most seem new to snakes) realize that you should NEVER FORCE FEED A SNAKE ANYTHING?
> 
> Not just a sharp chicken head, not anything dangerous, but ANYTHING AT ALL unless you are experienced or have been shown.
> 
> ...



agreed again - unreservedly


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

for **** sake, whats done is done, it cant be reversed...yes it could have been avoided but it hasnt...

GET OVER IT...no use whinging now, all we can do is try to HELP POSITIVELY...


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

Its been mentioned about the lack of experience in the members now on this site and that its not being used for what it was intended.Well isn't It good to see the site is being used exactly what it was intended for Questions and responses being posted about a reptile.


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

And one more thing,how do we ever expect the inexperienced to learn if the experienced ridicule them.If you do not want the trade to be doomed then be pro-active and help out the less experience and we can all enjoy a healthy hobby.


----------



## Nome (Nov 5, 2006)

If you are referring to me Sparticus, where have I ridiculed anyone?

I just see people saying to ashman ' you should have used this or that instead', my point is that force feeding anything at all is dangerous in inexperienced hands. You will find that most very experienced keepers and breeders will NEVER resort to force feeding anything, there are much better ways for the snake. I was concerned that newbies think that force feeding any kind of food is acceptable, when in reality it's a very dangerous practise with negative outcome regardless if something goes wrong when it's done or not.

And to your other comment sparticus, the experienced people used to bother here because this was a site that used to be about reptiles. The reason 95% of them left was because of the new culture of newbies handing out terrible advise and then the experience people getting slammed when correcting them (calling them the 'elite' and the like) and also because decent herp threads were lost in the chit chat. You will find those people on other sites now, but these are sites that discourage chit chat, so the newbies just aren't bothering there because keeping reptiles seems to be to newbies these days about a social status rather than caring for and loving reptiles.

My partner has kept and bred snakes alone for 13 years, he was a member of this site since it was yahoo groups, years ago now. He recently left and asked for his account to be removed, most of the breeders tried here and did persist, but it was pointless.

It is very clear to me reading threads over the last year here that some review needs badly to be done for licensing or animals are going to continue to be neglected, get sick and dying, and little 'mistakes' are going to be making reptiles very sick and stressed. Steve Irwin hated that reptiles were allowed to be kept as pets, he was totally against the reptile keeping hobby for that reason, that he believed the animals would suffer. I used to disagree with that, but in the last year I strongly believe he was right.


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

Nome said:


> Force feeding is unecessary, dangerous and stressful and you should only attempt this if you have a few years under your belt and have been shown how to..


 
force feeding is at times necessary some times it is the last resort but I do agree with you it is dangerous and it should be done by experienced people. having said that you have to start some where I have force fed around 150 snake in my years dedicated to reptiles and i never got shown how to force feed a snake, i had to read it out of a book . i had a hatchling children’s that wouldn’t feed for ages and no rep vet around at all i had no choice but to turned to a book and that book saved that snakes life and out of all the times i force fed i only stuffed up once.

the point is some times you have to do what is necessary for the animal whether taking it to a vet of when non around or most of the time don’t know anything you have to do it all your self books and forum like this one are a sight for sore eyes to new hobbyist alike so in stead of criticizing lets help them.

now im off this topic. cya


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

i totally agree alumba


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

The statement was made I context to what is being discussed not at anyone in particular especially you,I have read what you have to say about force feeding and I agree with you to the most,but I have seen even the most experienced resort to force feeding in fear of losing an animal.These people were experienced and still thought this was the apropriate action.The point I'm trying to make is that all of us need to communicate more about the keeping of reptiles.I would never of thought about ever force feeding a chicken head,then on the other hand I would never have thought it would of caused the kind of damage it did.I do not beleive the chicken head was the problem,I beleive it was the force feeding.I think the person is very fortunate not to of taken the snakes life. The person should never have thought of that as an option,it should of been explain when they purchased the animal if you have any problems about anything don't hesitate to ring and we can come up with a solution.As for peoples common sense you can't trust it,everyone has different views on whats sensible and what isn't.That is why industries place policies and work practise codes to take common sense out of the equation.


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

The statement was made I context to what is being discussed not at anyone in particular,I have read what you have to say about force feeding and I agree with you to the most,but I have seen even the most experienced resort to force feeding in fear of losing an animal.These people were experienced and still thought this was the apropriate action.The point I'm trying to make is that all of us need to communicate more about the keeping of reptiles.I would never of thought about ever force feeding a chicken head,then on the other hand I would never have thought it would of caused the kind of damage it did.I do not beleive the chicken head was the problem,I beleive it was the force feeding.I think the person is very fortunate not to of taken the snakes life. The person should never have thought of that as an option,it should of been explain when they purchased the animal if you have any problems about anything don't hesitate to ring and we can come up with a solution.As for peoples common sense you can't trust it,everyone has different views on whats sensible and what isn't.That is why industries place policies and work practise codes to take common sense out of the equation.


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 5, 2006)

For everyones infomation I did ask for advice on how to feed this snake. I was told that I may have to force feed it. And I breed bantams so that is why no one else on here would have considered a chicken head, as they don't keep them. Since I have them i thought why not. I havn't just been keeping reptiles for a few months, I have had them years ago.


----------



## Nome (Nov 5, 2006)

*Alumba*, this is my last post on the topic as well as I really cannot be bothered with this place most of the time anymore:

Force feeding is unecessary in 99.9% of circumstances. It is not unusual to hear of breeders that pumped out thousands of snakes never force feeding even one. We have bred notoriously hard to get eating hatchlings such as BHPs and Antaresia and have never had to force feed. This is why:

All force feeding does is getting some food into the snakes stomach. It doesn't teach the snake anything except that feeding is stressful, it doesn't teach the snake to swallow, nor to develop any instincts. ASSIST FEEDING on the other hand is a way where the snake is able to take food, whilst putting much less stress on the snake and also inducing the swallowing reflex. If anyone tries force feeding without ruling out all the other possibilities, they should not be keeping snakes. 

Another reason why FF is unecessary: there are heaps of reasons why a snake goes off it's food. It's obvious in the original posters case, that force feeding this diamond was completely over the top when it had only gone three months without food. Likewise, the other night, I had heard of a 16 year old that force fed his first snake after only having it for a month. This is where snakes will die much quicker than if they are left refusing food. The Number 1 cause of snakes not eating in my opinion is over handling. People handle their snakes as soon as they get them home, they give them no chance to adjust, they then incredibly CONTINUE to handle the snake even when it has refused food. Handling a snake it putting it through stress, ask any old timer and they will tell you that. Most snakes will tolerate that stress, but the first sign of stress in a snake is it refusing food. I have never ever understood why people continue to handle their snakes at all when they are refusing food. Another reason snakes won't eat is because of the time of year, which is most likely what ashman's snakes problem was, it's normal and especially in carpets still this late. Another reason is unsuitable caging (ie too big) and also cage temperature. Then there is stress factors, illness and hoards of other reasons.

Instead of people now looking for the cause of the non-feeding, they just look for ways to get the snake to eat even after a short period of time. How many inexperienced people on here have told people to try a skink? People dont' realize then that they are setting themselves up for a life long problem of the snake only wanting scented food. Newbies need a book to tell them something about checking all these things first, looking at stress factors and most importantly not touching the snake at all until it is eating again.

We have never had a problem feeder persist for a long period of time, my partner has had 100s of snakes go through his hands through trading and breeding and never had to force feed one. You just rule out the other factors and most of the time that will fix the feeding problem. We have not had one case yet that we were even close to considering force feeding.

There are many other ways and they 99.9% of the time fix the problem. Every time we sell a snake, we say 'leave it alone for two weeks, if after that it stops eating, don't handle it till it is', and there is rarely a problem. I think if newbies just stopped stressing their snakes, most of these feeding problems would be fixed. 

Hopefully this thread has been a good learning curb for anyone that was considering FF....it says alot to me that breeders going for a lot of years are more reluctant to FF than newbies these days. It's just not worth it for the snake.

Anyway, I'm out. I hope I explained my reason for why I think it's unecessary enough for you Alumba.


----------



## Peregrinus (Nov 5, 2006)

created yourself quite a thread here ashman


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

To Nome,
That is the best thing I have ever read on this site,It was straight to the point and backed up with years of experience and knowledge.You did exactly what I was asking in my continued posts,you provided the imformation from an experienced point view on force feeding so we can all learn and put the animals well being first, much appreciated.Please see this site as a way of teaching people like myself from your experiences.Thanks


----------



## alumba (Nov 5, 2006)

well done Nome 
yes i agree with you and yes maybe i should have gone in to more detail on when its time to ff i would like to say for the record that ff is THE LAST RESORT after all avenues have been checked and double checked like Nome was saying eliminate all other possible causes then c about ff but i stand by what i said ff is some times necessary but as the last resort only

now im finished 

Nome, a rebuttal?:lol: lol


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

agree on everything said nome!


----------



## Nome (Nov 5, 2006)

Sparticus, thanks for your comments, but I don't have years of experience. I've been keeping reptiles for around 3 years (I'm a tarantula person myself foremost), but in that time moved in with my partner who has got years experience under his belt. I was involved with breeding season with him twice now and also he has one of the larger collections around, so I was able to learn alot. The above is just my opinion based on what I've seen and also his way of doing things which I have seen successfully works, also his success with adult pythons he has purchased as 'non feeders' and had them feeding in no time. But it's still just an opinion, other people may disagree, but I think it's safe to say FF doesn't have positive affects on a snake, but most particularly easy species to keep such as pythons where such measures really don't need to be resorted to.

lol, no alumba, I'm out now, really this time :lol:


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 5, 2006)

Can I say once again that this is what we are actually here about.!

To share information and our experiences (whether right or wrong) to gain enough knowledge to be able to make decsisions on how to best keep our animals.

I think everyone has made valued comments and opinions here and hopefully someone has gaiend a bit of info in which to help them in their herping.

How's Dugs by the way? Where is he hanging out these days? If you people want some good info and personal (and honest) herp experiences I believe Nome can put you onto someone who is pretty good..

This site is not just about experienced herpers. IMO it is about all facets of herpers...from the ones with many years to the ones with only a few hours.....I believe that we all learn un til the day we die.

By the way I know of a few experienced herpers who have had to force feed snakes thorugh problem times (mostly when hatchlings). I know I have had to do it with Beardies with crix for a week. I would not call it forced feeding but more assisted feeding

Anyway just like last night I have had too much to drink. Have a good one guys...................................................................and girls.


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

wow...


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 5, 2006)

*Spelling*

I've just re read what I posted and would like to apologize to anyone that I may have offended with my atrocious spelling:lol:

Alcohol is a funny thing and should only be tried by trained professionals :lol:


----------



## zard (Nov 5, 2006)

Nome post #96 was brilliant and i applaude you on your information and the way it has been put forth there.

In THIS case the ff was IMO completly un nescary, 4 times !!! surely after the first time you would realise you are out of your depth. Ashman i do not believe the decision you made was thought through or you considered the repercussions, unfortunatly it is not you that suffers for such a tragic decision it is the animal.

I have read so many posts here of late and just shook my head, it seems that keeping has become popular but research into how to keep these animals not so.
It also seems that new owners or short term owners are to quick to assume they know and can do everything, within a few months some have become self confessed experts. 
The real experts are those who have been in the hobby for many years and even then they will tell you they are still learning.
It is sad that many of the more experienced herpers out there have left this site and will no longer share their experiences here but the instant experts have alot to answer for for that.

all the above is just my opinion.


----------



## rockman (Nov 5, 2006)

Zard , well said . I have to learn to be a bit nicer when i write things. Jim


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 5, 2006)

Time and time again people put forward valid thoughts as to why things are done a certain way [tried and true methods] only to be shot down in flames from instant experts.

These so called instant experts as has been said have only been in the hobby a short time and perhaps only had experience with one or two animals.At times a lot of advice given are direct cut and pastes from other sites and posted in such a way as to show the poster as having relavant experience.The people doing the googling have no way of knowing if the info is correct or not and don't seem to care either way,all they seem to care about is being percieved as knowledgable.

People such as Naomi are still offering advice for the health of your pets and getting slammed for the most part for doing it.Most others have given up due to the frustration of it all.Naomi is 100% correct in what she has said on this issue.If a snake is not eating during a period of the year that they should be then it is because of stress.Stress being everything from incorrect temps,handling or other straight out bad practises.Reptiles have very basic needs and supplying them with these needs is a no brainer.

To the ones having problems with their animal/s I suggest you spend more time closely observing the animals in your care and less time reading the rubbish [ for the most part ] in these forums.You will be very surprised what you can learn from watching your animals closely.


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

Lets keep discussions like this a common thing and keep this forum a pleasure for all who use it.Healthy discussion keep a healthy mind and it should also help to keep healthy reptiles.


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 5, 2006)

*Wise*



sparticus said:


> Lets keep discussions like this a common thing and keep this forum a pleasure for all who use it.Healthy discussion keep a healthy mind and it should also help to keep healthy reptiles.



I take it you are one of the wise men


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

No I'm an unwashed smelly roman in a torn toga with sandals and on my feet,who thinks he is a gladiator.


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 5, 2006)

hahahahahahaha


----------



## snakes4me2 (Nov 5, 2006)

shamous1 said:


> Just remember one thing here!!!!!!
> 
> Ashman did not have to post this thread at all. I believe he made the post in the attempt to help someone in a similiar position. He has learnt by his mistake and hoped to help someone else by sharing his experience.
> 
> ...


 
I agree shamous. Everytime someone joins this site you ALLWAYS see "dont be affraid to ask anything even if it sounds stupid". Well i say that is a load of crap, have a look at this thread, a guy have made a mistake and people are only too quick to jump down his throat.

How about, Sorry to hear that but you really shouldnt force feed at anytime, if you are worried just take it to a vet


----------



## CodeRed (Nov 5, 2006)

snakes4me2 said:


> I agree shamous. Everytime someone joins this site you ALLWAYS see "dont be affraid to ask anything even if it sounds stupid". Well i say that is a load of crap, have a look at this thread, a guy have made a mistake and people are only too quick to jump down his throat.
> 
> How about, Sorry to hear that but you really shouldnt force feed at anytime, if you are worried just take it to a vet


 
Theres a difference between asking a stupid question and doing something obviously stupid.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist or 10 years of reptile breeding experience to realise that jamming a chicken down a snake's throat isnt going to do it any good. 

FFS if your snake isnt eating then ASK first. You wouldve found that people wouldve offered lots of solutions which would have prevented this "accident" from happeneing in th efirst place.


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 5, 2006)

FFS I did ask and got useless advice and barley any replies. If i had of done this and nothing bad happened no one would have said anything.


----------



## CodeRed (Nov 5, 2006)

Mate I am not having a go at you personally, its more that I am venting about the recent spate of crap advice by people with 5 minutes of experience. 

If you had posted that question a year ago, you wouldve received some very good advice from lots of experienced herpers. But now its only the 5 minute experts. 

I blame the loss of experienced herpers from this site on your snake's mishap.


----------



## rockman (Nov 5, 2006)

CodeRed said:


> Mate I am not having a go at you personally, its more that I am venting about the recent spate of crap advice by people with 5 minutes of experience.
> 
> If you had posted that question a year ago, you wouldve received some very good advice from lots of experienced herpers. But now its only the 5 minute experts.
> 
> I blame the loss of experienced herpers from this site on your snake's mishap.



Basically what i was trying to say . How many people are left that have been here for more then 3 months , think about it ? . You ask for help , think who you are asking , people are giving advice that don't even own a snake yet . Good luck Jim


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 5, 2006)

So you blame me for experianced people leaving this site. Real mature. I blame people who try and get poiticaly corect on every topic. And people who say how stupid you are for making a mistake. I speak to a few herpers on this site outside of here and they all say the same thing. That some people have nothing better to do and for a 17 year old I think i am doing pretty well with my animals.


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 5, 2006)

The mistake was made. Fact. 
Ashman admitted it. Fact.
People gave advice. Fact.
People have jumped down his throat. Fact.
Experienced Herpers have left this site. Fact.

Why? Because of ****ty attitudes of certain people who feel that they our mightier than........................sorry I lost my train of thought...........basically get of the kids back. What's done is done and fortunately for the snake and Ashman it looks like it turned out o'k.

Was it stupid.......most likely. Do you think Ashman learnt his lesson? Definately.
But cut him some slack or people will get scared of ever asing for help for fear of being told (A) The wrong thing and (B) for being ridiculed.

Goodnight all. 04:00 start in the morning.


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 5, 2006)

*Your joking right*



CodeRed said:


> Mate I am not having a go at you personally,I blame the loss of experienced herpers from this site on your snake's mishap.





Hi Codered. Your not serious by your comment about not having a go at Ashman are you? You could have fooled me. Read your post 2 posts above and it is there for all to see in black and white. You quite simply blame Ashman. Whether you meant to or not you did. I would probably try and re-phrase or try and better choose my words next time, or maybe even read what I have typed previously before I say something like, "I'm not having a go at you personally".


----------



## sparticus (Nov 5, 2006)

Rockman has a completely valid point about some of the information being given out on this site in regards to reptiles.If your new at it or haven't had much contact with other reptile keepers how do you know which information or advice to take on board and if you take the wrong advice it can lead to the detriment of the animal.When I first came to this site a put on a pretend senario about my murray darlings not eating just to make contact with people and get the ball rolling in regards to talking to others on the site,Some of the advice I was given was bizzare in anyones language.I am just glad I wasn't really in trouble with my snakes or I will still be in the bathroom blow drying the mice so they had a good hair doo.If we don't know how to help the person with the issues at hand lets not give advice or ridicule and let the people who have had the experience help them.I personally do not know who is who on this site and am always happy to give advice on things that I know about if I am asked, but I am no expert and would never claim to be and would not dream about giving advice to someone about their animal I know nothing about.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 5, 2006)

i love lamp?


----------



## Camo (Nov 5, 2006)

Yes. We have all made mistakes and we will all learn from them. The main thing is that the snake has not had any real damage from this and next time this will not happen. I also have a MD girl who has not eaten in ages and it gets very frustrating.

Cameron


----------



## TOMatoPASTE (Nov 5, 2006)

i love carpet


----------



## Serpant_Lady (Nov 5, 2006)

Really? I thought the "Smooth as a billiard ball" was in fashion TomatoPaste...?


----------



## greyfox (Nov 6, 2006)

sparticus said:


> Rockman has a completely valid point about some of the information being given out on this site in regards to reptiles.If your new at it or haven't had much contact with other reptile keepers how do you know which information or advice to take on board and if you take the wrong advice it can lead to the detriment of the animal.When I first came to this site a put on a pretend senario about my murray darlings not eating just to make contact with people and get the ball rolling in regards to talking to others on the site,Some of the advice I was given was bizzare in anyones language.I am just glad I wasn't really in trouble with my snakes or I will still be in the bathroom blow drying the mice so they had a good hair doo.If we don't know how to help the person with the issues at hand lets not give advice or ridicule and let the people who have had the experience help them.I personally do not know who is who on this site and am always happy to give advice on things that I know about if I am asked, but I am no expert and would never claim to be and would not dream about giving advice to someone about their animal I know nothing about.




dude i think your a fool about the pretend eating problem. your moaning about not helping in the right way and you where getting advice from people who might of been able to help others with information if they knew what they where on about and you were wasting their time when they could of been helping someone else... i know this as when i was worried when my snake eat alot of substrate and i didnt get a reply for days and its bloody worrying. finaly someone replyed and i calmed down. so try not to waste other peoples time just for a survey.


----------



## CodeRed (Nov 6, 2006)

Ypou have gotten me the wrong way around.

Its the loss of experienced people on this (and other sites) that has caused this problem. If the experienced people were still here then ashman's orginal question wouldve been well answered and he wouldnt have force fed his snake. Not the other way around. Hope thats clear now.

The reason people have left this site is a completely different matter.


----------



## greyfox (Nov 6, 2006)

CodeRed said:


> Ypou have gotten me the wrong way around.
> 
> Its the loss of experienced people on this (and other sites) that has caused this problem. If the experienced people were still here then ashman's orginal question wouldve been well answered and he wouldnt have force fed his snake. Not the other way around. Hope thats clear now.
> 
> The reason people have left this site is a completely different matter.



dude if you LOOK at the quate then you will realise i was not quating or talking about you but spaticus. i was talking about the way he got attention and wasted peoples time for a stupid reason.


----------



## sparticus (Nov 6, 2006)

Hey Greyfox,
Call me what ever you want a fool,time waster that does not change the fact that this fellow could of been helped by the experienced members of this site if they were still here when he posted the original issue.So I showed some initiative when there was no responses to my post introducing myself to the forum.For you to point the finger saying basically it was people like me that caused you to not get a reply for days,give me a break.The reason you didn't get any replies was most likely due to fact that the people who could of helped you were no longer using this site and not everyone uses it everyday.Yes I got a few responses from people about the murray darlings and it did one thing for shore.It showed me that I lot of people dish out advice without any experience and concern about the real issue.You may as well have a go at the people who put a new species of reptile post and then when you have a look, its a sock up a tree painted with stripes with big eyes glued on it are they time wasters as well or the people who post pictures of their reptiles,did they stop people replying to your post as well because people were looking at the pictures instead of helping you.Just think next your giving advice,you could be giving it to someone with 20 years experience who has never seen the problem they are encountering and someone tells them to blow dry a mouse,no wonder they left this site,they probably think its a joke.


----------



## greyfox (Nov 7, 2006)

i dont blow dry mouses.. i dry them with kitchen roll ahahahaha(its a joke). calm down anyway all i was saying was that i think your foolish trying to do a stupid survey to see if theres idiots on the site. of course there is going to be fools on the site its a big forum. but why waste the peoples time who do know things for your own selfish reasons when you didnt need help? thats the point im trying to get across to you but you took it the wrong way and got offended.


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 7, 2006)

UPDATE ON SNAKE.

Well someone is looking after him from me at the moment. He gave him a shot of vitimin B and baytril. He got it to eat a live pinkie mouse. I was so happy. He finally ate somthing. Apparantly he is doing well and the infection is starting to go down. 

Thanks all


----------



## nom (Nov 7, 2006)

ashman07 said:


> UPDATE ON SNAKE.
> 
> Well someone is looking after him from me at the moment. He gave him a shot of vitimin B and baytril. He got it to eat a live pinkie mouse. I was so happy. He finally ate somthing. Apparantly he is doing well and the infection is starting to go down.
> 
> Thanks all



Great news Ashman


----------



## inthegrass (Nov 7, 2006)

that is good news ashman. keep the chin up.
cheers.


----------



## shamous1 (Nov 7, 2006)

Well done Ashman. Things will be o'k. For every set back or knock back you have you will learn something each time. Like inthegrass said, "keep the chin up".


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks all, I will post some pictures when he gets better.


----------



## darkangel (Nov 21, 2006)

how's your snake going ashman? hope all is well!


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 21, 2006)

He is fine and the wound has healed. He a has eaten twice since them so all is ok now.


----------



## darkangel (Nov 21, 2006)

that's good to hear!!!


----------



## eatspam (Nov 22, 2006)

put it on youtube... seems like it would fit in with the rest of the cruelty


----------



## ashman07 (Nov 22, 2006)

???????????????????


----------



## Squamata (Nov 22, 2006)

Bathe the wound in betadine the color of weak tea, daily. Make sure you keep his enclosure spotlessly clean so no infection can start. If you want to feed him again, try warming his food in warm to hot tap water and then pat dry. If that doesnt work try a slice of chicken breast, it is easy to swallow and digest. I have rehabilitated many wildcaught injured pythons and this will usually get them eating again. Even when injured if a python can eat it will help them heal. 
Try and get him to any vet or better still go and see the guys at Bunarong Aquarium in Frankston, they should be able to put you in the right direction..

BTW you should never try to force feed a python or any animal if you are not sure of what you are doing, only ever let an experienced herp do it. Your concern outweighed your common sense on this one, but dont worry too much, pythons have amazing healing powers, just watch out for infection. Good luck


----------



## Squamata (Nov 22, 2006)

ps just read the rest of your post, it seem i only read the beginning ???, silly me, if you do have any more problems go and see the guys at Bunarong, they should be able to help you.

All the best and i am so pleased he is ok. 3 months without eating is not really a concern unless the animal is showing signs of weakness, I have wild caught carpets that didnt eat for 12 months when i first got them, imagine my despair, but now all are healthy and with any luck I should have a bumper season of eggs.


----------



## snakes4me2 (Nov 22, 2006)

eatspam said:


> put it on youtube... seems like it would fit in with the rest of the cruelty


 
I take it from this post you are perfect and have never made any mistakes


----------



## lizardlover (Dec 9, 2006)

man...sounds pretty bad!!!
you better do something quick....imagine what you would have to go through if it got infected!!!
and the poor snake!
just do the best you can...i would think that any help is, help.


----------



## shamous1 (Dec 9, 2006)

*Read first post*



lizardlover said:


> man...sounds pretty bad!!!
> you better do something quick....imagine what you would have to go through if it got infected!!!
> and the poor snake!
> just do the best you can...i would think that any help is, help.



Hi Lizardlover,

Think you better read the first post that was actually posted over a month ago.


----------



## lizardlover (Dec 9, 2006)

lol...just realised i didnt see 2 pages!!!!
well good to hear that its ok.
nice work and good luck in the future that it dosent reaccur.(sorry about the spelling!)


----------



## lizardlover (Dec 9, 2006)

yeh....thanx shamous...the second i looked up...i was like OH NO!!!
lol...


----------



## shamous1 (Dec 9, 2006)

*No worries*

I do the same thing some times too. Especially after a few drinks


----------

