# Mother calls for croc cull after near miss



## News Bot (Apr 24, 2013)

A MOTHER whose son saw his dog killed by a crocodile near Darwin says the animals need to be culled and has vowed to get a gun licence.






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*Published On:* 24-Apr-13 06:31 PM
*Source:* via NEWS.com.au

*Go to Original Article*


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## sd1981 (Apr 24, 2013)

I feel for her and her family, and this was a very near miss, but I believe that when she takes the gun as she has stated, she will most likely hit the person she would be trying to save... As a licenced firearms user, having used firearms under duress, the likelihood of her hitting her target from less than a few metres away is very slim, soldiers and law enforcement officers do train extensively to discharge a firearm under duress but even they get it wrong..... Maybe use a bit of sense when venturing into the water where you know that there is the possibility of croc inhabitation.... Just an opinion from outside looking in....


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## mad_at_arms (Apr 24, 2013)

Check out her facebook page, it screams redneck.


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## longqi (Apr 25, 2013)

mad_at_arms said:


> Check out her facebook page, it screams redneck.



She is only saying what actually needs to be done in many areas up North
Doesnt matter what her other beliefs or lifestyle is


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## PieBald (Apr 25, 2013)

longqi said:


> She is only saying what actually needs to be done in many areas up North
> Doesnt matter what her other beliefs or lifestyle is


Something does need to be done. Like humans leaving there.
Crocs have been there for millions of years and survived ice ages, the mass extinction of dinosuars and the main killer of them all was man with a guns. If she wants something done she can start by leaving them alone and not letting her son walk in a croc area.


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## Womagaunt (Apr 25, 2013)

PieBald said:


> Something does need to be done. Like humans leaving there.
> Crocs have been there for millions of years and survived ice ages, the mass extinction of dinosuars and the main killer of them all was man with a guns. If she wants something done she can start by leaving them alone and not letting her son walk in a croc area.


+1 totally agree


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## Darlyn (Apr 25, 2013)

PieBald said:


> Something does need to be done. Like humans leaving there.
> Crocs have been there for millions of years and survived ice ages, the mass extinction of dinosuars and the main killer of them all was man with a guns. If she wants something done she can start by leaving them alone and not letting her son walk in a croc area.


 You have a good point regarding staying out of the water. The truth is that waterways that have been safe for 60 odd years are now host to crocs, as the croc population increases to ridiculous proportions. When people have crocs in their backyards and children can't go to school because there are crocs in the playground then there needs to be a change in thinking. Crocs have survived guns before (as you point out) so getting rid of crocs from populated areas should have no big impact at all.


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## NickGeee (Apr 25, 2013)

I thought crocodiles were a vulnerable species.
Are they ?


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## Firepac (Apr 25, 2013)

nickg said:


> I thought crocodiles were a vulnerable species.
> Are they ?



[h=2]Australian and State/Territory Government Legal Status[/h] 



The current conservation status of the Salt-water Crocodile, _Crocodylus porosus_, under Australian and State Government legislation, and under international conventions, is as follows:

*National:* Listed as Marine and Migratory under the _Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999_.

*Queensland:* Listed as Vulnerable under the _Nature Conservation Act 1992._

*Western Australia:* Listed as Otherwise Specially Protected under the _Wildlife Conservation (Specially Protected Fauna) Notice 2003._

*Northern Territory:* Listed as Least Concern under the _Territory Parks and Wildlife Conservation Act 2009._

*International:* Listed as Least Concern on the _2009 International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) Red List of Threatened Species._


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## champagne (Apr 25, 2013)

if you haven't been up north in the last few years you wouldn't understand.... the crocs population is growing and they aren't scared of humans. I went on a barra trip to the cape last year and had a crocs coming right up to the boat, even had one come up and have a taste of the motor. speaking to the locals its a common thing now.


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## saintanger (Apr 25, 2013)

why do humans reslove all problems with killing, everyone knows there is crocs in nearly every water way up there. so why let you kids and dogs go in the water? 

lets say the python population goes up and a few kids get bitten per week going in the bush "their home" were they know they will be there, should we start a python culling?

i agree some crocs shold be moved and a few rogue crocs that delibratly go after humans and have no fear of them might need to be killed, but i disagree with culling.


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## Darlyn (Apr 25, 2013)

saintanger said:


> i agree some crocs shold be moved and a few rogue crocs that delibratly go after humans and have no fear of them might need to be killed, but i disagree with culling.


 They cull them now. Problem crocs are removed or shot. There is an industry waiting for trophy hunters to pay good money to shoot the crocs that will be shot anyway. If it's being done already it should be utilised as an industry that can employ indigenous people and generate an income. As humans debate and argue the points the years roll on and the crocs get bigger. Time to make a decision.


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## Lachie3112 (Apr 25, 2013)

Crocs have been there for a long time, and they have had their ups and downs (population wise). But this is the time now where unfortunately you can see what happens when you don't have any control measures in place for a species (dangerous) that resides populated areas. They don't have any natural predators, so you cannot rely on the food chain, and because of this they have lost their fear of humans and will become curious and continue to explore residential areas.

In my opinion, there isn't a need to cull them to the point of extinction like we have seen in the past, but there is a need to reduce numbers in the NT in areas near population. This combined with an education program that tells people about the risks and what to do etc could help.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 25, 2013)

The following quote is from the preface of the book “Crocodiles of Australia” by Webb and Manolis. These two academics have spent a lifetime researching these animals and are recognised as world authorities on our two crocodile species. The book goes back to 1989 so is getting a bit dated but the information it contains is still as relevant to day as it was back then. An excellent starting point to bring yourself upto speed with the realities of these animals ecologically....

“In the decade following protection, and particularly in the Northern Territory, an enormous research effort was directed at Australia’s two crocodile species. The wild population increased under protection, and fears of extinction could be put aside. A widely held view that crocodile populations wee fragile entities needing careful nurturing proved erroneous. Both species are tenacious survivors. Man may ultimately dictate the size of the wild crocodile population in northern Australia but if the habitats remain intact, making crocodiles extinct may be virtually impossible.”

If you really want to complain about mankind altering nature to his benefit, have a ***** about broad-acre farming. Millions of hectares of native habitat (usually called worthless scrub) chained and stone picked and tilled to allow wheat and sheep to be grown. Culling of croc populations within cooee of human habitation in northern Australian, to whatever degree, will have no ultimate effect on the viability of the long term survival of either species. After 40 plus years of shoot-on-sight anywhere and everywhere, they have recovered to the point where they are huge populations again and lots of larger individuals presenting problems in human populated areas. And that recovery has also occurred over 40 years.

Destruction of habitat is what you need to worry about. Because we lose a two to three people each to crocs they tend to grab the lime light. They are not really what we need worry about. It is the myriad of animals that are lost when habitat is destroyed that we really should focus upon. Crocs have proven to be incredibly resilient and they can definitely cope with even mass culling in the vicinities of human habitation.

The other side of the coin is that there are certain areas you don’t swim or allow pets in or stand in water to fish or even use a small tinny to do so, as they are designated croc habitats. We do need to strike a sensible balance between maintaining nature and making those areas occupied by significant human populations safe to use. Perhaps that is the crux of this thread?

Blue


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## champagne (Apr 26, 2013)

saintanger said:


> why do humans reslove all problems with killing, everyone knows there is crocs in nearly every water way up there. so why let you kids and dogs go in the water?
> 
> lets say the python population goes up and a few kids get bitten per week going in the bush "their home" were they know they will be there, should we start a python culling?
> 
> i agree some crocs shold be moved and a few rogue crocs that delibratly go after humans and have no fear of them might need to be killed, but i disagree with culling.



have you been to northern Australia recently? As darlyn said there are places that haven't had crocs there for 60 years and know to be safe to swim that now have crocs moving in to them. Croc numbers can be managed sustainably and by doing so bring a much needed industry to the indigenous people of northern Australia. As for the python scenario, python don't posses a life threating risk to humans....


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## myusername (Apr 26, 2013)

I tend to notice that, in general, the people who are for culling live up north (where there is a problem) and the people who are against culling live elsewhere. Now I don't mean to say anyone's opinion is invalid, but I feel that more weight should be given to those who are actually from the area where there is a problem. 

My uncle is a wildlife loving man and hates to see people kill things unnecessarily, but he told me after working and living up north and using the waterways, it was hard not to be of the opinion that a controlled cull would be in the north's best interest.


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## mmafan555 (Apr 27, 2013)

So it's only the Northern Territory that has had a Croc population explosion in recent years??? Queensland is a different story??


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## longqi (Apr 27, 2013)

Queenslands population is growing and they are spreading South
Probably not as quickly as NT
But definitely more now than a few years ago


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## SteveNT (Apr 27, 2013)

mmafan555 said:


> So it's only the Northern Territory that has had a Croc population explosion in recent years??? Queensland is a different story??



Dont get me started! And not just the crocs


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## phatty (Apr 27, 2013)

myusername said:


> I tend to notice that, in general, the people who are for culling live up north (where there is a problem) and the people who are against culling live elsewhere. Now I don't mean to say anyone's opinion is invalid, but I feel that more weight should be given to those who are actually from the area where there is a problem.
> 
> My uncle is a wildlife loving man and hates to see people kill things unnecessarily, but he told me after working and living up north and using the waterways, it was hard not to be of the opinion that a controlled cull would be in the north's best interest.



Most are from south us who are born know not to go near the water or are stupid 

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 2


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## $NaKe PiMp (Apr 28, 2013)

they should start culling alright,they should start by culling STUPID PEOPLE


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## Magpie (Apr 28, 2013)

saintanger said:


> why do humans reslove all problems with killing, everyone knows there is crocs in nearly every water way up there. so why let you kids and dogs go in the water?
> 
> lets say the python population goes up and a few kids get bitten per week going in the bush "their home" were they know they will be there, should we start a python culling?
> 
> i agree some crocs shold be moved and a few rogue crocs that delibratly go after humans and have no fear of them might need to be killed, but i disagree with culling.



Do you honestly think that snakes don't get killed in their thousands every week?
Open your eyes people.
Roos are killed to protect crop lands. So are Ducks and Cockatoos. Even Wombats.
Millions of native animals are killed or deprived of habitat to make way for housing and roads.
Millions more are killed to put food on tables.
Millions more are killed on roads.
But the idea of killing a few crocs to make certain areas safer for people? No way!


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## champagne (Apr 28, 2013)

mmafan555 said:


> So it's only the Northern Territory that has had a Croc population explosion in recent years??? Queensland is a different story??



all of my posts were based on experiences in cape York which is (QLD) not N.T. the crocs are growing in numbers in all of north Australia


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## champagne (Apr 28, 2013)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> they should start culling alright,they should start by culling STUPID PEOPLE


 yes they should and start with people who post comments on things they know nothing about....


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## mmafan555 (Apr 28, 2013)

The whole "Croc's were here first and it's the stupid humans that should be removed" argument is illogical....Human beings as the dominant species on the planet are always going to want to live anywhere we can and there is nothing anyone can do about it...Best to strike a balance between Humans and Crocs...Aka set up National Parks/preserve important river systems where hunting is strictly banned but allow some managed hunting/harvesting elsewhere.


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## cement (Apr 28, 2013)

Even if crocs were culled back, why would people deem it now safe to enter the water. Crocs can turn up overnight.
By all means cull the numbers of crocs by whatever means, but it won't stop people being taken if the psychology of humans doesn't respect that yes we are a part of ecology, and that means the food chain. 

They'll be going fishing or whatever believing that because of a cull there are no crocs. The rangers and spotters etc can't be everywhere following every croc..... people need to respect the top end waters regardless of the croc population. If they want to go near the water (say its their god given right) to fish etc, then you need to be aware of the risk, and if the risk is too great then give up playing by the waters edge. Its very simple. 

People like this woman, need to stop trying to blame others and take a good look at themselves and the part they played in what happened. The bloody croc has given her and her son a warning, she should be grateful for that warning and just back off.
By back off, I mean take a minute, learn by your mistakes and take care.


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## Bananapeel (Apr 28, 2013)

I don't like the idea of killing native animals but I fully understand and would support the decision to cull the problematic crocs and keep numbers down and try and keep them from spreading too close to suburban life. 
However the ignorant people like these women need to understand that part of living up there or holidaying up there involves crocs being in almost all waterways. 

Even if the population is 'controlled' there won't ever be none up north so put up with it, get a real education and don't make stupid decisions then go on about how it's not your fault. 

If you live with the crocs, you respect them and don't go wanting to kill them all because of their nature. In saying that, I don't think culling is a bad idea and may provide some benefits and a slightly larger sense of security. This does not mean your guard should be dropped.


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## Magpie (Apr 30, 2013)

cement said:


> Even if crocs were culled back, why would people deem it now safe to enter the water. Crocs can turn up overnight.
> By all means cull the numbers of crocs by whatever means, but it won't stop people being taken if the psychology of humans doesn't respect that yes we are a part of ecology, and that means the food chain.
> 
> They'll be going fishing or whatever believing that because of a cull there are no crocs. The rangers and spotters etc can't be everywhere following every croc..... people need to respect the top end waters regardless of the croc population. If they want to go near the water (say its their god given right) to fish etc, then you need to be aware of the risk, and if the risk is too great then give up playing by the waters edge. Its very simple.
> ...




I don't disagree with any of this.
At the end of the day, people are responsible for their own saftey in these areas.


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## Rlpreston (Nov 7, 2013)

I lived in the north (near Darwin) for only one short year, but still long enough to learn that the croc population needs to be 'managed' either way. These animals were once endangered and since being protected from hunting numbers have exploded. As has been said by others, they are now moving into areas which were not originally occupied by crocs.

For whatever reasons (I'm not an expert but I guess they would including them being an apex predator as adults and the effect cane toads have on predators of young crocs) the populations are not controlling themselves. 

These are animals that we farm for meat/leather products to export so we shouldn't be kidding ourselves that these species are untouched so far!


EDIT: stupid phone update!! Was viewing some old list :/


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## mungus (Nov 7, 2013)

If ONE of you lost a loved one or a loved pet to one of these croc's…………you ALL would think differently to having them living on your door step…….. I can't warm to them.
Leave them alone in there environment BUT keep them out of ours!!


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## Darlyn (Nov 7, 2013)

mungus said:


> If ONE of you lost a loved one or a loved pet to one of these croc's…………you ALL would think differently to having them living on your door step…….. I can't warm to them.
> Leave them alone in there environment BUT keep them out of ours!!



What's your definition of "their environment" and our's?


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 8, 2013)

I am not sure why losing a loved one to a croc should change one’s attitude towards them. We know they are potential killers. We know cars are potential killers. Losing a loved one in a car accident does not normally stop people from driving. It may encourage you to be a lot more aware and careful and not take risks on the road. The same would no doubt apply when in croc country if you lost a loved one that way.

Crocodiles were controlled around human habitation in the past by shooting them. The reality is that this is a particularly effective method of control because those crocs which avoid being shot become gun shy. Any crocs remaining in an area that has been ‘shot out’ are only there because they have learned to avoid contact with humans. Hence they don’t present a danger.

Croc populations like any population (other than humans) are self limiting. To exist and reproduce they require a range of resources such as food, a suitable habitat, water, suitable climate, space, food, a mate, nesting sites and so on. Whichever resource is fully utilised first is the limiting factor on the population. In non-territorial animals the limiting factor is often food while in territorial species it is mostly space.

What I suspect is happening is that the populations in areas surrounding human habitation are reaching carrying capacity and the ‘overflow’ are being forced into the less desirable area where there are lots of humans. Ocean going crocs are much less affected by human habitation and may be present in numbers in urban areas.

Blue


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## i_am_snake (Nov 8, 2013)

As some one who has lived in the top end my whole (though short) life, And has grown up around the water and immersed in many of the pastimes we enjoy in northern australia, and the dangers that come with them. Being the person that i am have come up with a unique and thorough opinion about the croc debate.


The opinion that crocs should be culled/controlled in some way is shared by many, including many indigenous people who all now in the present have not lived in the time when northern australias eco system was unouched, and do not recognise the importance of maintaining the natural ecosystem. I for one prefer to see things the way they are meant to be.


An example; My grand father is a traditional owner born in the late 1930s he tells me stories of the old times and them being able to swim everywhere, and even learning the shooting and skinning trade as a teen. The culture of erradicating these beasts had been established decades before he was even born, and this was this was the norm right across the NT (port darwin settlement established in 1869 and first contact several decades before). 
So after over a hundred years of being shot at crocodiles are only returning to the places they once thrived. The now wide spread humans across the north Aus are having a hard time adjusting to the way things are supposed to be.


As for the danger factor.
The result of all deaths in recent years is due to complacency and lack of commonsense around the water, nothing more. Though the facts are quickly lost in the hype and sensationalism. if you swim in the designated waterholes monitored by parks and wildlife your safe. If you let your children swim in floodwater that runs into main river systems or want to have an evening dip in the mary river your gonna have a bad time...


There are other factors which contribute to the control of their numbers and safety of the crocwise punter.
Dont forget that parks and wildlife trap and remove around 200+ animals annually from the darwin and katherine region, wild eggs are harvested (the 2012-13 maxium quota for egg harvesting is 60'000) There is still natural selection and they do fight and kill each other for territory, police and rangers in remote communities do shoot problem/large crocs that hang around, As do the locals. Also alot of territorians do shoot them when they go camping and fishing, mainly for fun. I have several mates that do this unforunately. And then theres the toads...


I just read on the nt parks and wildlife about a group of young people were found beheading a croc they killed at shady camp!! (Place has highest concentration of crocs in the NT) This on top of countless photos and stories of moronic behaviour around dangerous water bodies is enough to tell you that many people are very ignorant towards using their brain to safely sharing their habitat. Thinking they are safe at the top of the food chain, when clearly they are not.


Co existing can be done and is demonstrated well in coastal indigenous communities, Although not immune from croc attacks but do a live slightly more harmonius existence, mainly by having a healthy respect for them (aka fear) 


So in all i believe a new balance at the top of the food chain has been set and it should be how it is. Be crocwise, Its simple really.


Dan


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## SteveNT (Nov 8, 2013)

Anyone showing no respect for salties will pay the price. I have lived in the Top End since 1975 and have always been careful around water. Even so I have had some very very close calls with big crocs because they are just such excellent stalkers. You let your guard down at your own peril.

To get into the water with this is simply suicide.



Nonetheless even after thousands of croc encounters my heart still races when I am near a big one. It is primal. I for one love the fact they are here, I have no problem with culling but fools will still find a way to put themselves in danger. And the crocs will make them pay.


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## mungus (Nov 8, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> What's your definition of "their environment" and our's?


Their environment - middle of nowhere……
Our Environment - heavy populated area's…..


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## moosenoose (Nov 8, 2013)

"Controlled" culling hasn't hurt anything yet. Stick a descent price on per head and give the majority of the money to aboriginal care in the top end. Hit the poachers hard and give that money to aboriginal care in the top end also. Just dont tell the Australian Greens about it, they'd be so upset crocs aren't out there killing people or their livelihoods.


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## Darlyn (Nov 9, 2013)

mungus said:


> Their environment - middle of nowhere……
> Our Environment - heavy populated area's…..



Up here people live in the middle of nowhere and have done so for many years. You can't look at your suburbia and think it is the same here. It isn't. If it was that simple there would be a simple solution, there is no simple solution.
.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 9, 2013)

I would not call humans an ‘apex predator’. The term describes a position in the food web of a natural ecological system. The main predator of crocodiles is far and away larger crocodiles. Just to put it into perspective, each year in Australia the average number of lives lost to some different causes is.... crocodiles 2, snakebite 3, dogs 6, horse riding 20, beach drowning 55, river or creek drowning 75. (I shall leave vehicles out of it.) 

As *Dan* pointed out, large numbers of crocodile eggs are permitted to be harvested. Collection areas are defined and the number of eggs permitted to be collected in a given area is set annually. Egg collection is based on population numbers and maintained within sustainable limits. More offspring are produced than can possibly survive to adulthood and breeding age. There is competition between individuals to survive. Removing a percentage of offspring (or eggs) that still leaves more individuals than can ultimately survive, resulting in competition for survival and natural selection. This has zero effect on the total population size and is therefore a sustainable yield which can be maintained indefinitely.

Large nuisance crocodiles that require removal normally end up in croc farms. Relocating them into a stretch of river where crocs are found will simply cause a territorial fight to the death with a resident. 

People living in or visiting crocodile country need to be crocodile educated. For example, any body of water may contain crocs, even if totally isolated, as they disperse during the wet when billabongs and lakes are connected by water to drainage channels. Having such a common and potentially dangerous animal protected obviously does not make sense to a lot of people, especially given they used to be shot on sight and their skins sold to make money. The things Dan mentioned are common and widespread practices, despite crocs being protected and this is probably why. I don’t live in the NT which is why I have not offered any opinions to date, just facts. I will say that I believe *Dan* has the correct outlook.

*Steve*. Just like grubbing around in the creek as a kid, except the stakes are somewhat higher and the adrenalin rush somewhat greater. Hopelessly addicted to adventure!

Blue


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## longqi (Nov 9, 2013)

Problem with many crocs now is that they are no longer scared
20 years ago they vanished at sight or sound of humans
There were a few big ones but really not that many
Any big ones remembered the croc shooting days

Now there are a lot of big ones that have grown up safe and secure
Never been shot at
Have no fear of humans
[they are still cautious; but that is a natural part of being a croc]
Because of over population they are being forced into more contact with humans

Most common barra boat for fishing was 3.5 metre tinnie and we felt safe
Wouldnt get me on many rivers there now in less than 4.5metre tinnie


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## cement (Nov 9, 2013)

I am amazed not more people are taken, especially around Cairns and the other regional centres of the far nth. For as much as the croc population has come back in healthy numbers, I really do find it amazing that the stats for crocs taking people are really quite low.
Any given day around the northern beaches of Cairns you will find gumbie's with no brains mucking around in the water. Most crocs won't target people preferring the dogs but I still see mum and dad letting their kiddies play on the water edge. 99.9% they get away with it.


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## spud_meister (Nov 9, 2013)

Not knowing much about the topic, but it seems to me the easiest way would be allowing shooting around populated areas. See a croc near a town, shoot it. See a croc not near a town, stay the hell away from it.


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## Darlyn (Nov 10, 2013)

spud_meister said:


> Not knowing much about the topic, but it seems to me the easiest way would be allowing shooting around populated areas. See a croc near a town, shoot it. See a croc not near a town, stay the hell away from it.



This proposal certainly supports the idea that you don't know much about the topic


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## caliherp (Nov 10, 2013)

You guys gave me the ambition do do a little research about harvesting gaters here in the U.S. I'm creating more questions then answers for myself. It seems harvesting is doing some good, the effects of it though are inconclusive to me at the moment. 

I feel longqi touched a very important aspect and that is fear. 50 years ago in the states for instance our population was nothing like it is now. They didn't come into contact with gaters as much as they do now, and when they did they would usually dispatch them rather quickly. Over the years as our population exploded so did our contact with gaters. I think a combination of population explosion as well as more frequent encounters lead to a decreased fear of humans. Not to mention the idiots hand feeding them. 

Regards, Patrick


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## Klaery (Nov 10, 2013)

Dan above said everything I wanted to say. Just wanted to add to something Blue said though.



Bluetongue1 said:


> Large nuisance crocodiles that require removal normally end up in croc farms. Relocating them into a stretch of river where crocs are found will simply cause a territorial fight to the death with a resident.


Back in uni I was doing some volunteer work with Craig Franklin (croc research at the time). I remember that they put a tracking device on a croc that was taken from Cairns and released it on the other side of the cape near NT. It stayed there for a few months and then over a very short period swam out into the ocean, around the top, and back to Cairns. At the time this was leading towards the realization that relocation was not very effective. 

This was a long time ago though and some of the details are a bit blurred but you get the gist of the story.


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## spud_meister (Nov 10, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> This proposal certainly supports the idea that you don't know much about the topic



Told ya so. :lol:


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## Dendrobates (Nov 10, 2013)

The reason crocs aren't scared in built up areas is because people are stupid enough to feed them. People cleaning fish and letting their dogs swim around boat ramps attracts crocodiles (just like any other animal they are just looking for food). They can't differentiate between humans, a pig, kangaroo, etc.. it all looks like food to them, they are only doing what comes naturally. Move away from the populated areas and crocodiles won't let you get anywhere near them, they are a very nervous and shy animal, especially for how large they are. 
Crocodile numbers are low in northern Queensland, much more low than what they are in the NT. I live in northern QLD and I also work with crocodiles.. I know how they operate, what their numbers are like and the areas that they prefer to frequent.. these areas usually being somewhere far away from people. That is, until people spread towards their homes and then complain that there's crocodiles in the area (the same as when people built a house backing onto the bush and then complain that they are getting snakes in the yard - it's no different). Stay away from the water and you'll be safe from crocodiles. It's common sense, which doesn't seem to be all too common these days.


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## longqi (Nov 10, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> The reason crocs aren't scared in built up areas is because people are stupid enough to feed them. People cleaning fish and letting their dogs swim around boat ramps attracts crocodiles (just like any other animal they are just looking for food). They can't differentiate between humans, a pig, kangaroo, etc.. it all looks like food to them, they are only doing what comes naturally. Move away from the populated areas and crocodiles won't let you get anywhere near them, they are a very nervous and shy animal, especially for how large they are.
> Crocodile numbers are low in northern Queensland, much more low than what they are in the NT. I live in northern QLD and I also work with crocodiles.. I know how they operate, what their numbers are like and the areas that they prefer to frequent.. these areas usually being somewhere far away from people. That is, until people spread towards their homes and then complain that there's crocodiles in the area (the same as when people built a house backing onto the bush and then complain that they are getting snakes in the yard - it's no different). Stay away from the water and you'll be safe from crocodiles. It's common sense, which doesn't seem to be all too common these days.



Problem is quite different in NT
Crocs are over populated there and so they are spreading out into areas which havnt seen a croc before
If even your grandfather has never seen a croc within cooee of your swimming hole can you blame people from getting a surprise sometimes?
Very few rivers in NQ have anywhere near the populations that many NT rivers have
Few NQ crocs come close to the big ones spreading out in NT
In some rivers there are many crocs way over 4metre and they follow boats waiting for a fish to be hooked
Unlike Qld many are not shy by any stretch of the imagination

Unlike Blue I consider humans to be the ultimate apex predator because we can and do kill anything
Up north two apex predators are coming into contact more often
They are only coming into contact because as each river in a park etc becomes over populated they are forced to move to another river system outside the parks

Regardless of how 'cute' some people think crocs are they need to be culled
Otherwise one day there will be a major problem and some idiot will sign a paper allowing all crocs to be removed


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## Dendrobates (Nov 10, 2013)

longqi said:


> Problem is quite different in NT
> Crocs are over populated there and so they are spreading out into areas which havnt seen a croc before
> If even your grandfather has never seen a croc within cooee of your swimming hole can you blame people from getting a surprise sometimes?
> Very few rivers in NQ have anywhere near the populations that many NT rivers have
> ...



I have also spent a lot of time in the NT around crocs, and have had my very own close calls.. the numbers aren't anywhere near as bad as you are making them out to be. Yes the NT has a large saltwater crocodile population, but they aren't in plague numbers. People are moving into their habitat, they are being fed, river 'jumping' tours are encouraging crocs to come up to boats and viewing boats as a source of food. People are to blame for these problems and education is the key (just like it is for all dangerous animals). 
Culling crocs will never make an area safe, removing an alpha male only encourages smaller rogue males to move into that area and fight for territory. Crocs are there for a reason, they serve a purpose and as the apex predator in 'their' environment that purpose is to keep the numbers of other animals (their prey) in check. If those animals aren't kept as a decent number than there are a lot more issues to deal with.. major erosion, disease, etc etc

Just because something is dangerous, scary or misunderstood does not mean that it should be killed. Unfortunately the majority of humans seem to have that attitude.


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## longqi (Nov 10, 2013)

Ive only ever had what I would call one close call in Aus
[I dont consider being stalked in a boat a close call]
But croc numbers have dramatically increased in the last 20years

Look at the numbers of crocs being relocated just in Darwin harbour
Every year it increases
Some females are kept for breeding
Most males get turned into hamburgers and handbags with any benefits going to the already profitable croc farms????

Culling crocs can most definitely make safer areas

Every year crocs are turning up in what was considered safe areas
Regardless on if they are fed or not they are becoming too used to humans

When you have apex predators turning up in places they have not been seen for 60 years something has to give

Unfortunately for the crocs it must be them that gives

Otherwise one day some official will sign a paper and a huge number will be eradicated
Better to bite the bullet now and keep them at a lower level


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## richoman_3 (Nov 10, 2013)

Human numbers have also dramatically increased in the past 60 years .. maybe thats why we are getting in contact with them more?


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## Dendrobates (Nov 10, 2013)

longqi said:


> Ive only ever had what I would call one close call in Aus
> [I dont consider being stalked in a boat a close call]
> But croc numbers have dramatically increased in the last 20years
> 
> ...



What proof or facts are you basing your argument on? Just hear-say?
Of course croc numbers have increased in the last 20 years - it's now illegal to kill them unless you're aboriginal. They were a threatened species not that long ago, but obviously aren't these days. They are back at the numbers there were 100 years ago (in the NT anyway. QLD still isn't even close). 
Once again I'll say that the numbers increase around people every year because they are being fed and used as a tourist drawcard (feeding from boats, etc). This also encourages more animals to move into an area if there is plentiful food there. Humans are to blame for that mistake. 

Culling crocs does NOT make an area safer. It provides a false sense of security where people believe that an area is now croc free when it can't be proven that there isn't a single croc in that area. 

If people are going to live in Northern Australia they need to be aware of the dangers of being around waterways and use common sense. If you stay on land well back from the water than you face very little chance of a crocodile attack.

Why must it be crocs that have to give? Just because selfish humans feel like they have the right to go wherever they feel like? 

Have you not seen what is going on in Cairns at the moment? Some clueless official has already signed off to have all crocs removed from the area just so he can feel like he's making a difference. 
Also legally wild-caught crocodiles are not allowed to be used for food, handbags, etc.. they are to live out their lives in a croc farm and then buried when they die. The croc farms are not allowed to make any profit from these animals. But, we would have to have to be pretty naive to think that that's how it actually pans out for them... yes, they may become food, but a wild croc will not become a hand bag or any form of designer clothing - they are covered in scars and imperfections which are undesirable for the fashion trade.


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## longqi (Nov 10, 2013)

First fished up North commercially in 1976
Fished there nearly every year since for fun until three years ago
Go places like East alligator mouth and talk to locals
No other proof needed

Apart from the tourist boats have only ever seen Mexicans trying to feed crocs
Locals know better

There was a very recent interview with NT rangers on tv
They had a male and a female croc caught in Darwin harbour tied in the back of their truck
Stated quite clearly that the female was possibly brood stock but the male was destined for leather

Maybe things are changing regarding skins in Qld toooooo???
Qld quote 

[h=1]Homeless crocs to be killed under Qld plan[/h] 






 November 08, 2013
 

* CROCODILES that can't be found new homes under Queensland's croc removal scheme will be killed. *

Environment Minister Andrew Powell said in June that all reptiles removed from waterways in the state's north under croc management plans would be sent to farms or zoos.
However, a spokeswoman from Mr Powell's office said on Friday that if new homes can't be found for any of the crocs they will have to be euthanised.

In June, environmentalist Bob Irwin slammed the scheme, saying crocs would be turned into expensive handbags and used for meat once relocated to farms.
He said crocs should be released elsewhere in the wild, not put into captivity.
At the time, Mr Powell's office would not say if any of the animals ultimately end up being used for fashion accessories or meat.

Cairns is a perfect example of the type of official stupidity I mentioned
Culling can be used to avoid that probability in the NT


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## Darlyn (Nov 10, 2013)

Talking about "culling" is kind of an open ended discussion. What defines "culling". Having the ability to get rid of problem crocs
(they are already doing it) in areas (mostly communities) where the presence of crocs are a danger to locals going about their daily lives.
Taking out problem crocs in these areas will not endanger people as they are used to living with crocs and are well aware that removing one will not mean the area is safe. These people are not idiots. Aspidorhyncha it's a bit rich to claim that "numbers increase around people every year because they are being fed and used as a tourist drawcard". This occurs on one river and one river only. Croc numbers have increased everywhere up here. Not just one river.


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## longqi (Nov 10, 2013)

Lynn
My belief is that they should permit the killing of crocs encroaching on areas inhabited by humans
That would make it legal
Increase the egg taking until wild populations stabilise rather than keep growing

Not that long ago 3 elderly ladies were charged with killing a croc with spears
Judge threw it out
But if the laws were in place they would never have been charged

Crocs are not stupid
.22 in the tip of the tail and nobody sees that croc again
Kill a few close to humans and the rest will move away quick smart if they have somewhere to go


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## Darlyn (Nov 10, 2013)

I agree Peter, I also think that there is room for economic benefits in the communities if it is done properly.
Unfortunately that will probably not happen because everyone has an opinion and when these decisions are made they are made by people who either don't live in the areas or have their own agendas. Probably best to leave it with the locals, turn a blind eye. At least some mob will get a feed


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## Dendrobates (Nov 11, 2013)

longqi said:


> First fished up North commercially in 1976
> Fished there nearly every year since for fun until three years ago
> Go places like East alligator mouth and talk to locals
> No other proof needed
> ...



Talking to locals in an area doesn't provide any proof at all. That's the same as going out to a remote property and having the farmer educate you on all the king browns they see that chase you... locals tend to exaggerate to a point. I'm not saying croc numbers aren't high in the NT, but local observations aren't proof to back up everything that you've said. 

I have seen locals feeding crocs in the East Alligator and the Mary River, as well as locals swimming in the water up there (remember the fella that was killed just recently?) - so no, locals don't always know better. 

Lastly park rangers have no clue about a lot of things, so what they say can't be taken as gospel. Like I have said, I'm around saltwater crocs every single day - education is also part of my job. Part of my job also involves what happens with those skins, and I know for a fact that wild crocs are NOT used in the skin trade. 

That Cairns thing you've posted is a perfect example of MP's changing laws just to suit themselves, and that particular change has caused a huge uproar in the past week since it was released. They have also got aboriginals in to do the culling, which means that the government can cover their own **** when it comes to killing a protected species. 

I must point out though that I have no problem with the removal of problem crocs, these actions are completely justified. I also have no problem with traditional owners killing what they feel necessary and keeping things under control, as long as they do it in traditional ways. 
Darlyn - you have taken one tiny piece of what I said and turned it around to suit yourself. I never stated that that was the only reason numbers are increasing, it is just one example of people drawing crocodiles closer to themselves and making them more 'brave' if you will. 

My major issue is people wanting to kill everything that is natural to an area just because it inconveniences them. If you want to live in the tropics than stay away from the water, respect the creatures that live in it and everything will be sweet.


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## longqi (Nov 11, 2013)

Aspid
I would fight hard to protect them
But within logical limits

Nobody wants to kill all the crocs
[except maybe in Qld]
Problem crocs are usually big ones
Big ones are the prime breeders genetically
Much better to remove a lot of smaller ones which will slow down their spread

regarding handbags
this is the official qld gov position
Quote; At the time, Mr Powell's office would not say if any of the animals ultimately end up being used for fashion accessories or meat.
So maybe you better ask officially what will happen to Qld skins etc now???

As for wanting to kill everything natural to an area??
300 years ago crocs inhabited a line across tropical Australia
Are you proposing to let them walk through Darwin Cairns Townsville etc etc without repercussions?
Or do we draw the line about 30 years ago??
Crocs were there if you went looking hard enough
But they were not encroaching on human habitation

Maybe Lynn is right
Give the locals free bullets and let them sort the mess out?
Doing that might help prevent the mass killing which is being implemented in Qld??


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## richoman_3 (Nov 11, 2013)

what are you trying to say longqi?
you are making zero sense?
You are going on about nothing, and than constantly backing up nothing with nothing?


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## Darlyn (Nov 11, 2013)

Aspid you stated twice about the croc feeding, I didn't turn anything around.

"Lastly park rangers have no clue about a lot of things, so what they say can't be taken as gospel." Really, we should just listen to you cos you work with crocs and live in Queensland? I don't think so.


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## longqi (Nov 11, 2013)

richoman_3 said:


> what are you trying to say longqi?
> you are making zero sense?
> You are going on about nothing, and than constantly backing up nothing with nothing?



What I have said is that croc populations are growing too fast in NT waterways
This is forcing the crocs to move into areas where they have not been seen for years
Crocs are apex predators and there are only a few who still remember being shot at
This has made the rest of the crocs into potentially very dangerous animals
Especially the ones now forced in human habitats

To solve the problem will not be easy
Taking more and more eggs until the population stabilises rather than grows may work
But removing eggs will not improve the situation quickly

Qld has now more or less issued kill on sight
Unless NT wants to face the same sort of stupid decisions a culling plan needs to be implemented
That plan unfortunately must include some park rivers systems
It must include those because it is the overflow of crocs from those areas which is spreading out

Much better to bite the bullet now and keep them at manageable levels


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## Dendrobates (Nov 12, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Aspid you stated twice about the croc feeding, I didn't turn anything around.
> 
> "Lastly park rangers have no clue about a lot of things, so what they say can't be taken as gospel." Really, we should just listen to you cos you work with crocs and live in Queensland? I don't think so.



Once again you're just picking one little section and focusing on it. I never said you should listen to me, I'm just offering an opinion from someone that is involved with crocs and having a friendly debate which you are obviously taking to heart based on your response. Just because you live in the NT and see crocodiles does that mean everyone should listen to you?
But yes, if you believe everything a park ranger says your head will be forever be filled with incorrect info. The majority of people that are into reptiles know that.

- - - Updated - - -

Also Longqi, what is 'human habitats'? Is that areas where animals once lived but people have taken it over as their own, built on it and then whinged about the dangerous native wildlife? 

Bees are killing many more people every year than what crocs are. Should they also be culled?

I know I'm wasting my time debating, but it's good to have a think about the long term consequences of our actions.


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## Wing_Nut (Nov 12, 2013)

Has the burgeoning feral pig population played any role in the rapid spread and reproduction of the salt water crocodile? Has the population of prey (including cattle) played a part in the population explosion to the point it possibly exceeds sustainable historic levels? Does it follow that human influence has played a part in creating this problem and such should play a part in resetting the balance?


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## Dendrobates (Nov 12, 2013)

Instead of shuffling paperwork and fining people for moving a beardie off the road perhaps park rangers should be out there culling all the pest species that are in plague numbers throughout the top end (and the rest of Australia). Like Wing Nut had said - large pig, cattle, hooved animal populations do play a part in the large number of crocs. There will only be as many predators in an ecosystem as is needed to balance out the prey numbers, otherwise the predators starve. Remove the prey and the predator numbers will drop to suit.


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## longqi (Nov 12, 2013)

Problem with removing prey from crocodiles is that they can go without food for a very long time
This gives them the opportunity to move somewhere else
If all feral animals were removed tomorrow what is left for them to feed on?
Long pig and hairless goat might be on the menu a bit more often

I completely agree feral animals should be removed on sight

- - - Updated - - -



aspidorhyncha said:


> Also Longqi, what is 'human habitats'? Is that areas where animals once lived but people have taken it over as their own, built on it and then whinged about the dangerous native wildlife?
> 
> I know I'm wasting my time debating, but it's good to have a think about the long term consequences of our actions.



Never a waste of time debating
What will be the long term consequences if a culling operation is not put in place soon?
Qld solution. Shoot them all and worry about it afterwards???

Human habitats to me would include any area where crocs have not been seen in living memory and have now been settled by humans during that period
Example
Darwin harbour would not be rated as human habitat by me because crocs have always existed there
But other areas close to Darwin could be included if crocs had not been seen within living memory

If bees were predatory animals whose numbers were increasing at ever increasing percentages
and were turning up uninvited too often; then yes they should be culled
But because their numbers are dropping rapidly that means they offer less risk than ever before so no culling is required

Horses kill more people than bees but apart from the feral brumbies they should be left alone too
Even shark species should never be culled because their attacks are avoidable

Because crocs learn so fast and can move long distances both on land and water they present a very different set of problems


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## Wing_Nut (Nov 12, 2013)

I wasn't just suggesting culling feral animals, but any reduction in crocs would certainly be more effective in the long term if some of the underlying causes of the problem where also addressed as part of any management strategy. Would you agree? The alternative would really need to be an annual cull. Not certain of the benefit of this out weighs the negatives.


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## i_am_snake (Nov 12, 2013)

Culling the feral animals that the crocs eat may have some impact to their population but it is an almost imposible task, it would cost millions and is not something the govt would consider. They do already cull feral animals annually via 50 cal and chopper but they probably target only high concerntrated areas of pig and buff. Also large concentrations of crocs existed at the turn of the last century before feral animals were in plague proportion to help them, and the removal of excess foods could drive them even closer to humans.

Lonqi, not many examples can be given as to habitats where where crocs were once not seen and now populated by humans. The freshwater swimming spots i can think of around the rural areas of darwin which i swam in as a teen are waterways which feed directly into the main river systems, all of these areas are still surrounded by bush land (which sometimes is peoples properties) but is hardly developed. Yes crocs are now more frequent in these areas but these areas are not safe and should never been deemed safe as this porosus natural habitat.

Croc attacks can be avoided, just like shark attacks!!
The proof is that people who do get taken are in the wrongplace and aren't using common sense.

to control crocodiles from living near human populated areas or prevent attacks you will have to kill thousands and thousands of them, As they will keep moving in on new territories as stated by many others here. Yes crocs get gun shy but that is no fool proof way of thinking you are safe in their habitat.

dan


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## Darwin-boy (Nov 16, 2013)

On this topic its simple if you swim in the water when you know you shouldnt you deserve to die not the croc i have lived in darwin all my life and worked with crocs and will always respect them! and never forget that the heavily populated areas in which we live were once the crocs not ours if you are dumb enough to swim in water where you shoudnt and you or someone close gets taken by a croc then you scream poor us cull them thats just down right ludacris we dont kill our human murderers, rapists, pedophiles etc. so why does a prehistoric animal that was made to kill and eat and was here first deserve to die because of pure ignorance!!!


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## lochie (Nov 19, 2013)

Having grown up in FNQ and being a country boy in a city I always head home frequently.
A crocodile cull needs to happen, regulate it tax it what ever but something does need to happen.

I'm not interested in a debate with anyone as I know this can be a controversial topic.
This is just my opinion having spent 13+ years of my life living with in <1km from a estuary.


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## champagne (Nov 19, 2013)

is it really a problem? how many people actually die from croc attacks each year in Australia one maybe two? If you are stupid enough to go swimming up north well....


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## longqi (Nov 19, 2013)

champagne said:


> is it really a problem? how many people actually die from croc attacks each year in Australia one maybe two? If you are stupid enough to go swimming up north well....



Crocs are turning up too often away from water in isolated communities
So its not just swimmers who need to be careful

Its not so much that it is a huge problem yet
But within 5 years it definitely will be a problem if something isnt done
Qld has adopted a kill them all approach
To avoid that possibility in NT better to fix it now


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## Dendrobates (Nov 19, 2013)

champagne said:


> is it really a problem? how many people actually die from croc attacks each year in Australia one maybe two? If you are stupid enough to go swimming up north well....



It averages out to be one death every 2 years in Australia from croc attacks. 20 deaths a year from horses and 13 deaths a year from having a vending machine fall on you... crocs are definitely the most dangerous thing we've got going...



longqi said:


> Crocs are turning up too often away from water in isolated communities
> So its not just swimmers who need to be careful
> 
> Its not so much that it is a huge problem yet
> ...



Have you seen how quick a croc can move on land longqi? A person can almost crawl faster than them... if you're stupid enough to get close enough to get grabbed by a crocodile that is out of the water then you deserve to be in it's jaws. 

QLD's approach isn't kill them all everywhere, it's only in the Cairns region and only as far north as Ellis Beach. It's also a trapping approach, which will never happen.. it's behind the scenes out of the public eye that they are killed.


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## champagne (Nov 19, 2013)

longqi said:


> Crocs are turning up too often away from water in isolated communities
> So its not just swimmers who need to be careful
> 
> Its not so much that it is a huge problem yet
> ...



or people could just stay out of the water and be croc smart around water in northern Australia.... 

284 people drowned in Australian waterways between July 1 2011 and June 30 2012, how many people died from croc attacks? maybe the government needs to get their priorities right if they are worried about human safety around waterways.


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## Burnerism (Nov 19, 2013)

i_am_snake said:


> Croc attacks can be avoided, just like shark attacks!!
> The proof is that people who do get taken are in the wrongplace and aren't using common sense.


Like surfing at the beach?


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## SteveNT (Nov 19, 2013)

I have been chased (not far) by both wild salties and freshies on land. If I was crawling I would have suffered serious injuries. It is completely stupid and reckless to tell people that they can crawl faster than a crocodile. 

Dont mistake an overfed slug at a zoo/farm for the real deal. You do so at your peril.


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## Renenet (Nov 19, 2013)

Did anyone see Reptile Battleground? It's probably still available on ABC iView. It will dispel the myth that saltwater crocs can't run on land. They're not built to run far, but they can go at surprising speeds over a short distance.


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## Trimeresurus (Nov 19, 2013)

Fact is most animals are physically superior to us, people just need to use what WE have more often (superior brains - debatable for some).


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## Dendrobates (Nov 20, 2013)

SteveNT said:


> I have been chased (not far) by both wild salties and freshies on land. If I was crawling I would have suffered serious injuries. It is completely stupid and reckless to tell people that they can crawl faster than a crocodile.
> 
> Dont mistake an overfed slug at a zoo/farm for the real deal. You do so at your peril.



Sorry, I've over-exaggerated a fair bit there out of frustration and it was stupid.. more the point I was trying to get across is that they can't outrun a person or move very far without tiring out quickly. I'm not referring to zoo or farm crocs either. I was more referring to large adult males.. I've seen some adult females move fairly quick over a 20 metre distance. 
I've also had a wild saltie charge me on the land, and I guess being around them a lot you get to know their movements and how they operate. Something a lot of people wouldn't see or understand. 

The overall point I've tried to get across is that people need to use common sense in crocodile territory, respect the dangers, be careful around water and realise that killing things doesn't solve our problems. There's a lot worse dangers out there that need to be focused on first.


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## i_am_snake (Nov 21, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Like surfing at the beach?



Sorry bud, I was referring to croc fatalities not shark attacks. Not that you'd see me in the water when i go down south.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 22, 2013)

aspidorhyncha said:


> ... yes, they may become food, but a wild croc will not become a hand bag or any form of designer clothing - they are covered in scars and imperfections which are undesirable for the fashion trade.


If this statement were true then there would never have been any incentive for wasting money, time and effort on the shooting of crocs that went on for decades. Secondly, according to the Bureau of Statistics, the deaths due to crocodiles averages *2* per year. Bees are also critical for pollinating billions of dollars worth of food crops. *Aspidorhyncha**,* I believe you have some valid points to make, even though I disagree with some.

*Darlyn* raised the important point of: What do we mean by “culling”? Without qualifying its meaning it could be anything from open season to selective removal of occasional individuals identified as a danger to human life. I see little point in using the word unless you make its meaning clear.

*Longqi*, I have trouble with what is meant by “over populated”. Natural populations are self-limiting according to whatever the limiting resource is. With crocodiles being territorial, the limiting resource tends to be area of suitable habitat. So matter what the food availability, the population is limited by the amount of available habitat. As for feral animals like pigs, buffalo, horses, donkeys and cattle, they compete with native herbivores, such as kangaroo species, reducing their numbers. All up, there is probably not a significant increase in food availability. But even if there is, it is more likely to have an effect on the rate of growth than on ultimate population size.

Estuarine crocodiles in Australia, despite popular belief to the contrary, were NEVER endangered.

Blue


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## Wing_Nut (Nov 22, 2013)

I disagree with the overall effect feral species have had on populations of crocodiles. Many of the feral populations have higher requirements for water, and accordingly frequent water sources far more often which brings them into contact with crocodiles more regularly. Also, many of the feral species breed far more prolifically, and similar areas sustain larger populations when compared to native species. Furthermore, the introduced feral species have damaged the environment to the extent that many of the predators of juvinile crocodiles have been reduced in numbers. I simply don't agree that feral animals have not played a major part in the explosion of crocodile populations.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 23, 2013)

The relatinships between feral animals and crocs are not simpleand clear cut. Some of the genenral effects of ferals:
Pigs, buffalo, horses and cattle are all herbivores with hooves. Buffalo produce wallows, mostly in billabongs, which destroy gasses, sedges, waterlilies and reeds, which are important food sources for other animals. They also muddy the water and increase salt intrusion. Pigs dig up the ground around springs and rainforest patches, esp0ecially in the wet, leaving the soil exposed soil vulnerable to erosion and weed establishment. In fact pigs are believed to be the major factor in spreading the noxious weed mimosa. Horses and cattle damage water holes by leaving the soil surface broken and open to erosion, fouling water and spreading weeds.

A better way to go mght be to get historical records (ifavaialable) of what crocs were like before humans arrived in numbers. 
Blue


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## longqi (Nov 23, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Longqi*, I have trouble with what is meant by “over populated”. Natural populations are self-limiting according to whatever the limiting resource is. With crocodiles being territorial, the limiting resource tends to be area of suitable habitat. So matter what the food availability, the population is limited by the amount of available habitat. As for feral animals like pigs, buffalo, horses, donkeys and cattle, they compete with native herbivores, such as kangaroo species, reducing their numbers. All up, there is probably not a significant increase in food availability. But even if there is, it is more likely to have an effect on the rate of growth than on ultimate population size.
> 
> Estuarine crocodiles in Australia, despite popular belief to the contrary, were NEVER endangered.
> 
> Blue



That is correct Blue
In their protected areas ie parks, they are getting to be too many for each area to contain
Unlike other animals they do not limit their numbers
They simply spread out more into less crocodile populated areas
Big males control an area
So smaller males have to move away
This is where the problem lies
Where they are moving to is into areas occupied by humans
Because they have never been threatened by humans they are getting too interested now


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 23, 2013)

As was to be expected, large saltwater crocodiles were common in all rivers of northern Australia at the turn of last century. So crocodiles are not moving into habitats they did not already occupy prior to European settlement. 

Firstly, this nothing new. In the 70’s and the 80’s there were a dozen plus fatal croc attacks. Most offenders were shot and killed. Any croc that was involved in a non-fatal attack and could be located, was caught or killed. This includes the NT, Qld and WA. Large numbers of potentially dangerous crocs were and still are removed from populated areas and designated swimming spots every year. Greater access to remote areas through road and tracks and all-terrain vehicles has also brought more contact between crocs and humans and more potentially disastrous scenarios. So yes, the frequency of attacks has increased since protection but has levelled off over the past two decades.

The majority of the fatal attacks and nuisance crocs of the 70’s and 80’s were due to large males – 3.5m to 5m plus e.g. ‘Sweetheart’. These individuals were too big to have developed post protection and were obviously crafty survivors of the 40 odd years of shooting. So they have learned, post protection, that humans and boats no longer pose the same risks. 

Calling for a blanket cull and blasting the living daylights out of every croc that is seen is one solution. However, putting limits on human expansion and habitat destruction, while at the same time finding a reasonable balance between our safety and comfort and letting nature exist, is the better long term solution. Remove the hysteria from croc attacks, the vast majority of which are highly avoidable and the result of human stupidity. Compare the 2 lives lost per year to crocs with alcohol, smoking and dietary/exercise related deaths in this country. Makes crocs look feeble.... 

Blue


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## Dendrobates (Nov 23, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> If this statement were true then there would never have been any incentive for wasting money, time and effort on the shooting of crocs that went on for decades. Secondly, according to the Bureau of Statistics, the deaths due to crocodiles averages *2* per year. Bees are also critical for pollinating billions of dollars worth of food crops. *Aspidorhyncha**,* I believe you have some valid points to make, even though I disagree with some.
> 
> *Darlyn* raised the important point of: What do we mean by “culling”? Without qualifying its meaning it could be anything from open season to selective removal of occasional individuals identified as a danger to human life. I see little point in using the word unless you make its meaning clear.
> 
> ...




I think you've hit the nail on the head with pretty much everything you're saying, Blue. The only thing I need to clear up though is when I was referring to wild crocs never becoming hand bags, etc.. I was referring to nowadays, not when they were culled for decades. These days wild crocs aren't used for fashion, however they most certainly were used back in the day. These days even zoo crocs are rarely used for their skins when they die.. there's no demand for skins with imperfections when perfect farmed skins are available. That's all I had to say.


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## longqi (Nov 23, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> As was to be expected, large saltwater crocodiles were common in all rivers of northern Australia at the turn of last century. So crocodiles are not moving into habitats they did not already occupy prior to European settlement.
> 
> Firstly, this nothing new. In the 70’s and the 80’s there were a dozen plus fatal croc attacks. Most offenders were shot and killed. Any croc that was involved in a non-fatal attack and could be located, was caught or killed. This includes the NT, Qld and WA. Large numbers of potentially dangerous crocs were and still are removed from populated areas and designated swimming spots every year. Greater access to remote areas through road and tracks and all-terrain vehicles has also brought more contact between crocs and humans and more potentially disastrous scenarios. So yes, the frequency of attacks has increased since protection but has levelled off over the past two decades.
> 
> ...



Culling is never blasting the living daylights out of every croc
Culling is removing 'X'% of crocs from an area by whatever means is deemed most practical
This may include shooting trapping or egg removal
Larger numbers of crocs are being removed every year and this number is definitely increasing if you look at Darwin harbour as an easy example
When fearless apex predators return to any area where man is now resident in ever increasing numbers there can be only one outcome
Your reasonable balance has been reached now
But that balance is tipping further every year


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 23, 2013)

Thankyou for qualifying that statement *Aspidorhyncha*. I learned something new.

*Longqi*, the reference made to widespread shooting of crocs was a bit of tongue-in-cheek re-phrasing of the mother's call for a 'cull'. Not referring to anything you said. 

I know the numbers being removed have increased but have not lked at the figures fr some time. I will do that befre I make a comment. 

I will say that egg removal is by far the least effective way to reduce numbers given the number of eggs produced per clutch, the difficulty in locating all nests in a given region and the inherit dangers involved in harvesting the eggs.

Blue

- - - Updated - - -

Data on all croc removal per (financial) year by the NT National Parks and Wildlife Service is provided in the current management plan (1012-14), for the years ending in 998 to 2008: 112, 152, 182, 147, 180, 222, 224, 238, 247, 204. There is a levelling out evident over the second five years. 

They monitor croc numbers and biomass (via sampling) in 12 rivers. A quick summary of their findings follows....
The numbers for seven of the twelve rivers suggests that the populations have been stabilising in recent years and are approaching their capacity, while there are still varying rates of increase in the other rivers. Biomass density increased in only six of the twelve rivers, suggesting that the size of individuals has been stabilising in recent years and is approaching carrying capacity in those rivers with no increase.

Crocs will continue to disperse into areas of human habitation. The NT govt. made a bad mistake in declaring there would be a so many kilometres (50 I think) “exclusion zone” around Darwin. The reality is that they cannot guarantee any exclusion due crocs ability to travel over land as well as by water and the fact they can travel substantial distances quickly. One cannot assume that any substantial unfenced body of water is free of crocs and behaviour has to be tailored accordingly – including restricting pets.

Blue


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