# hybrids



## adder99 (Jan 8, 2010)

i got a guestion what is agains hybrids.

they look cool 
1st. bredli x ball python

2nd. jungle x coastal.


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## wiz-fiz (Jan 8, 2010)

is the white black and yellow 1 the coastal X jungle? and i it is, the 1st pix not working.


Will


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## Scleropages (Jan 8, 2010)

um. ok your 13.. soooo... its like someone really wants a cat , but all the cats are crozzed with dogs and the cats bark not meow.. so that person never gets to have a cat with a meow. sure it looks like a cat but barks so its not a pure cat. and becuase most poeple can't tell the difference between a cat that barks and one that meows they breed them togeither and then there are not "real" cats left.

So puting it simpl(er) if some one breeds a jungle with a coastal and then breeds the babys and the babys babys breed and they look sorta like coastals and some one sells them as coastals , then some one else who wants a coastal buys one but then finds out its a cross and not realy want they want and they will never get a "pure" coastal , thats kinda sad isent it?

The snakes themself arnt bad , but the fact crosses stuff up "pure" lines are. if that makes sence?


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## Mayhem (Jan 8, 2010)

Wow, a topic that hasn't been done before!


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## D3pro (Jan 8, 2010)

well there are few reasons, some people think that hybrids will wipe out the original species, it's illegal, it's a short cut to make a pretty snake compared to a long line of "pure" species. 

Though, of course, I find it quite interesting that we're actually ruining the so called "pure" species with selective breeding (conscious or subconscious). By breeding for things such as looks, temperament, feeding etc. the original species are slowly been eradicated. If we were to release such a snake, it would show different habits from the wild ones (so much for species back up) 

So My opinion is, There is no big deal, one road is fast, the other takes several generations, ether way a captive animal will have a captive animals fate. Look at dogs, cats etc. I enjoy seeing the hybrids, but I love the pure breeds at it's best. 

don't hate me lol


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## -Matt- (Jan 8, 2010)

Not again.

But Scleropages thats probably the best explaination Ive ever read on the subject.


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## bluereptile (Jan 8, 2010)

i am fully against hybrids, its wrong crossing two different species.in the end you dont have anything pure you have a mongrel.


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## D3pro (Jan 8, 2010)

Damn Hybrid convo. It's personal, but if your going to cross breed, don't sell the offspring's as pure breeds


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## adder99 (Jan 8, 2010)

thx guys, how come thy can do it in the us?


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## Scleropages (Jan 8, 2010)

adder99 said:


> thx guys, how come thy can do it in the us?


 
They can do it anywhere ( if its legal) but maybe they don't care about why they shoulden't do it.


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## D3pro (Jan 8, 2010)

Cause the US dont give a damn... most of there aussie breeds are hybrids (like jungles and diamonds) In Aus. we have strict rules on our native species, and were not allowed to have species from other countries... lucky for me my fav. snakes are GTP's and Bredli's


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## wiz-fiz (Jan 8, 2010)

its the USa and 2 b honest, some poeple in the USa are messed up, most aren't, and anyway americans only want looks, just ask the guys about girls


Will


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## cosmicwolf4 (Jan 8, 2010)

adder99 said:


> thx guys, how come thy can do it in the us?


 
They do it because they can and don't care what happens after they get their cash!! 
There are so many hybrid animals that shouldn't exist, yet the Americans think it's cool to do it.... WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! My opinion anyway


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jan 8, 2010)

D3pro said:


> Cause the US dont give a damn... most of there aussie breeds are hybrids (like jungles and diamonds) In Aus. we have strict rules on our native species, and were not allowed to have species from other countries... lucky for me my fav. snakes are GTP's and Bredli's



yeah? say that to some of the king snake breeders there "purests" are even more anal than we are having some bloodlines as specific as 100k's streach of road in the back of nowhere. 

they started crossing there "exotic stuff" as it became illegal for them to import freash bloodlines, so in a last pitch effort to save on "over-inbreeding" they did what whay could, the out crossed, 

in fact some states they need to have a permit to keep the local native species (but dont to keep "exotics") 

IT DOSE WORK BOTH WAYS ... serisouly


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## ashisnothereman (Jan 8, 2010)

you can cross Morelia with Python??? isnt that impossible seeing they are different genus?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jan 8, 2010)

ashisnothereman said:


> you can cross Morelia with Python??? isnt that impossible seeing they are different genus?



It is indeed unpossible to cross Morelia with Python. :?


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

ashisnothereman said:


> you can cross Morelia with Python??? isnt that impossible seeing they are different genus?


 
I first thought so too but iv seen pics of womas x ball
they called it a wall python


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## D3pro (Jan 8, 2010)

wall python haha


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

heres a pic
reckon its real????


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## antaresia_boy (Jan 8, 2010)

god thats a hot snake lol. could be photoshop, could be real. never know these days.


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## Retic (Jan 8, 2010)

Oooh great, another thread about completely unsubstantiated ridiculous generalisations about Americans.


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jan 8, 2010)

Farma said:


> heres a pic
> reckon its real????


 
yup thats the riddgie-diddige! im holding out to see a 88% woma with the pied ball python trait. , and yes they are working on that sort of thing, not just the 50/50 crosses seen so far, it is verry earliy days for this sort of thing yet. 

BUT there are certanatly soo cross that should never pass, i once say a pic of a wall (woma x ball) crossed to a carpchrond (carpet x chrondo) 

UGLYEST thing i've ever seen


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

haha did they call it a cwopondall


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## Contagion (Jan 8, 2010)

Farma said:


> reckon its real????



it's real, and not all that uncommon over seas.... 

Unfortunately this is a prime example of how reptiles, in particular snakes, cannot be compared to other such animals as mammals... 

Snakes can be crossed despite being of different genuses. I'm not sure if they are fertile offspring, but I'm fairly sure some are at least. 

I pose a question though...... what is better... the snakes int he first two pictures... or these? *see attachments*

2 of these are mine, the other belongs to solar_17....


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

Well the first pic doesn't do much for me! 
I think the wall looks great!
and those three are damn nice snakes!
I think my favorites are the hypo and the wall!


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## getarealdog (Jan 8, 2010)

male of dark complextion seeking female of light complextion for serious relationship. Not sure now about having possible offspring!
sorry couldn't help myself lol


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## Dipcdame (Jan 8, 2010)

boa said:


> Oooh great, another thread about completely unsubstantiated ridiculous generalisations about Americans.



Cant argue that one. boa!!!!!!! unfortunately, it's all true, I dunno why, but Americans seem to prefer things if they're articifial!!!!!!! Not real!!!!!!!


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## cosmicwolf4 (Jan 8, 2010)

boa said:


> Oooh great, another thread about completely unsubstantiated ridiculous generalisations about Americans.


 
My statement wasn't a generalisation. It's a known fact, I lived in Canada for over 10 years and saw first hand the things they do to animals there. The ligers, tigons, white tigers that are so very inbred that birth defects are enormous. They even tried to cross African and Indian elephants (not sure if they succeeded), it has got to the point of abuse to the animals.
Most American people are nice, but they love to see freaks of nature, so please don't accuse some of us of generalisations when in actuallity I have seen it.


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## D3pro (Jan 8, 2010)

Farma said:


> heres a pic
> reckon its real????



THATS SNAKE IS NIIICE lol... but um, totally wrong... yeah... wrong.... (damn I wish I had a ball python right now lol)

Jokes jokes.... (angry herp mob is seen out the window)


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## Dipcdame (Jan 8, 2010)

Contagion said:


> it's real, and not all that uncommon over seas....
> 
> Unfortunately this is a prime example of how reptiles, in particular snakes, cannot be compared to other such animals as mammals...
> 
> ...



DEFINITELY YOUR PICS CONTAGION........................... GOOD FOR YOU................ all I ask is this............ WHY cross them when there are so many beautiful pythons anyway........ {URE ones, I MEAN!!


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## Dipcdame (Jan 8, 2010)

cosmicwolf4 said:


> My statement wasn't a generalisation. It's a known fact, I lived in Canada for over 10 years and saw first hand the things they do to animals there. The ligers, tigons, white tigers that are so very inbred that birth defects are enormous. They even tried to cross African and Indian elephants (not sure if they succeeded), it has got to the point of abuse to the animals.
> Most American people are nice, but they love to see freaks of nature, so please don't accuse some of us of generalisations when in actuallity I have seen it.



GOOD FOR YOU........ cosmic................. it[s people who can attest to the stupidity of cross breeding in ANY species, that we can base our arguments.......................... if you've LIVED it, you have more knowledge of anyone here who havent been abroad to ACTUALLY SEE AND EXPERIENCE WHAT THE ANIMALS HAVE TO GO THROUGH!

GOOD FOR YOU!


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## JasonL (Jan 8, 2010)

boa said:


> Oooh great, another thread about completely unsubstantiated ridiculous generalisations about Americans.



Damb Seppos!!! Australians are nothing like them..... well not for a few years anyway.. :lol:


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## Dipcdame (Jan 8, 2010)

jasonl said:


> damb seppos!!! Australians are nothing like them..... Well not for a few years anyway.. :lol:



hear hear!!!!!!!!:d


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## ReptilianGuy (Jan 8, 2010)

whats up with it, there is push for a ban on keeping of reptiles and boas in the states and wispers of it here for pythons. unnaturally tainting our snakes is good enough ammunition for a ban to be pushed here to. we have amazing snakes in looks and pattern, although few hybrids do look nice a the few and far betweens it aint worth it and nothing looks better than a pure aussie python in my opinion


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## D3pro (Jan 8, 2010)

Farma said:


> heres a pic
> reckon its real????



slightly out of topic, this looks more like a ball x burnamese... like this one


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## Dipcdame (Jan 8, 2010)

........... and to add to my comments........... I add this for the mods........................... If I can't post my personal views without fear of being suspended, then it's NOT a DEMOCRATIC site, and I want no part of it!....... I cannot, nor intend to change anyones views, but it's no different here than being targeted by cat-haters!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2010)

well im with reptilianguy you just cant beat an aussie green python!
BUT those two do look damn nice!!


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## cosmicwolf4 (Jan 9, 2010)

ReptilianGuy said:


> whats up with it, there is push for a ban on keeping of reptiles and boas in the states and wispers of it here for pythons. unnaturally tainting our snakes is good enough ammunition for a ban to be pushed here to. we have amazing snakes in looks and pattern, although few hybrids do look nice a the few and far betweens it aint worth it and nothing looks better than a pure aussie python in my opinion


 
I agree totally. Hybridization is wrong, Just because we as humans aren't happy with what we have, we try to change it. It isn't part of the natural cycle, animals DO NOT naturally cross breed and most times when they do they are sterile. Sterility is for a reason, to ensure the breed is kept pure. When we intervene we change the fine balance that nature has created and then all things change, not for the better either.
A Google search for why white tigers shouldn't exist will show a prime reaon for not cross breeding any species. 
To be honest, there needs to be some sort of control to stop it happening and keep our pythons the way they were meant to be. Pure and natural.


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## ntvnm (Jan 9, 2010)

its like arguing about the sun rising tomorrow ,its gonna happen. 

you people remind me of that guy that crys over sun sets in that movie bedazeled..staring brandon frazer.

*just get over it* ,don't comment if a some 4 year old makes a thread on hybrids and the mods should delete any thread with the debate of hybrids..it should be a site rule..seriously ...no body mentions hybrids as it will lead to fights and there are plenty of threads on that freak garbage already.

i don't know what i hate more ,the idiots that breed hybrids for a quick buck or a the idiots that go on and on and on and on and on about them and start threads and post comments ,we have herd it all before.aww its gonna wreak the hobby blah blah blah..

Look theirs is room for cats that bark and cats that moawww :lol: so just stop all this crap now..you know where to go if you want that hybrid rubbish..hybrid haven ..the safe place for losers..or what ever there slogan is :lol::lol::lol:

take it east people and don't stress.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 9, 2010)

ntvnm - with you all the way!!!!!!!!!!


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## ilovejordan (Jan 9, 2010)

bluereptile said:


> i am fully against hybrids, its wrong crossing two different species.in the end you dont have anything pure you have a mongrel.




Agree 100%:x


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## Dipcdame (Jan 9, 2010)

I ask, whats the point of a post such as this? MANY have been posted before, some have been closed, other (members) have had infringements, whats the point, all points of view have already been given till recently!!!!!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2010)

whats the point in getting so worked up about it??


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## cris (Jan 9, 2010)

Scleropages said:


> um. ok your 13.. soooo... its like someone really wants a cat , but all the cats are crozzed with dogs and the cats bark not meow.. so that person never gets to have a cat with a meow. sure it looks like a cat but barks so its not a pure cat. and becuase most poeple can't tell the difference between a cat that barks and one that meows they breed them togeither and then there are not "real" cats left.



You noob, you know nothing about genetics, any cat can MEOW, just takes some practice and a decent circular saw :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2010)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## ntvnm (Jan 9, 2010)

whats the point of questioning people farma and draging the thread on..just dont comment and let the thread die.


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## JasonL (Jan 9, 2010)

Before you jump up and down about hybrids, you need to ask yourself "what is a hybrid?"... everyone has different veiws on what is right and wrong... is it ok to pair together a childrens from Isa with one from Darwin?, or a Woma from WA with one from NT? or a carpet from Sydney with one from Brisbane? Is it OK to breed a mac from Cairns with one from Tamworth? Is it OK to breed snakes of the same species if you don't even know where they came from?, Is it Ok if they look the same and not if they look different? Yes, breeding a different Genus takes on a whole new meaning but if done naturally isn't it interesting that it is possible? does that make it OK? with so many questions isn't it inevitable that arguments will start... but who is right? you are of course


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2010)

I just dont understand why the people that get so distressed about the topic cant move their little mouse to a different thread
I was actually interested in hearing peoples knowledgable answers to breeding the different genuses! I suppose not everyones on here to learn though!


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jan 9, 2010)

Farma said:


> I just dont understand why the people that get so distressed about the topic cant move their little mouse to a different thread
> I was actually interested in hearing peoples knowledgable answers to breeding the different genuses! I suppose not everyones on here to learn though!


 
please if you want helpfull infomatin about the subject go to an overseas froum, caus you will only get flames hear. 

the members of this froum just cant seam to help them selves on that one, and in over 2 years nothing has changed, play it safe dont mention the "H" word, 

and intergraides, that subject is taboo hear too, save the drama for helpfull insite on the matter go elce where for it , lord only know hear it will onley lead to flame wars and suspensions


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## Contagion (Jan 9, 2010)

I've expressed my opinion about this before I believe. 

IMO anything done artificially is a hybrid. 

Sure there are diamond and coastal intergrades, and sure there are coastal and jungle intergrades... but does that mean you can take any old coastal and cross it with any old jungle? the results 9 times out of 10 will be inferior to either parent. 

The example given in the first post is one of only a few. I've seen the parents and some siblings to that pairing, and have to say, that's a nice one. there's a few, but not all are that nive. If the effort was put in, though overseas, a pure substitute could have been found. There are several breeders working one very specific "Ivory jungle" lines over in the states and in other countries. Some of which rival our julatten and stone line black and whites. 

I can see where people are going with hybridising, and I can't say I'm not partial to the odd jungle jag, or irian jaya jag, or granite jag etc etc... but when it comes to coastal x jungles and similar, it just doesn't seem worth it. And as far as bredli x ball pythons, or womas x ball pythons... well... that there just seems unneccessary IMO. Like I showed in my previous post, in alot, if not the vast majority of cases, pure specimens are just as, if not more beautiful then the hybrids.


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## stuartandconnie (Jan 9, 2010)

i know people will shout me down

hybrids r the way of the future
the lads in the states are 30yrs ahead of us with
native aussie birds so i spose all we can do is wait n see


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## jamey (Jan 9, 2010)

These rediculous generalisations and accusations about people and things(ie:all americans are hybrid lovers/breeders) that most of you know absolutely nothing about are plain childish and very offensive to some.To the point that many americans who are antihybrid will not even participate in this forum any longer.There is nothing wrong with having your own opinion,especially when it is an educated opinion.Yes many here in the states create hybrids,but just as many or more do not.You simply see many of them because like anything else unique,they receive more attention and press.What makes it most frustrating,is that many of you have decided all americans are hybridisers based solely on that you have read it on the internet enough times!
I am an american.I do not breed or keep hybrids/crosses.In the eyes of many here,that would make me an anomaly,wich is not even close to reality.
And to the poster who lived in Canada and supposedly observed it firsthand?Last I checked Canada is part of North America,but no part of the USA.Most of the hybrid examples you gave(liger,etc.)did not originate in America.
There is nothing wrong with being a purist and stating it proudly.Just stop stating as fact that it's all the americans fault.If an Australian keeper breeds hybrids,do you truly believe he'd never have done so if those [email protected] Americans had'nt?
In the end we all share a passion for these animals and it is a shame we can not even discuss anything without pointing fingers and placing blame.
All the best,
Jamey


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## Retic (Jan 9, 2010)

Thank you Jamey, nice to get a comment from the horses mouth rather than the horses a, well you get the idea


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## Rhysc (Jan 9, 2010)

The first documented Liger was actually born in miami


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## Dipcdame (Jan 9, 2010)

The history of ligers dates to at least the early 19th century in Asia.[citation needed] In 1799, Étienne Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire (1772–1844) made a colour plate of the offspring of a lion and a tiger.

In 1825, G.B. Whittaker made an engraving of liger cubs born in 1824. The parents and their three liger offspring are also depicted with their trainer in a 19th Century painting in the naïve style.[citation needed]

Two liger cubs which had been born in 1837 were exhibited to William IV and to his successor Victoria. On 14 December 1900 and on 31 May 1901, Carl Hagenbeck wrote to zoologist James Cossar Ewart with details and photographs of ligers born at the Hagenbeck's Tierpark in Hamburg in 1897.[citation needed]

In Animal Life and the World of Nature (1902–1903), A.H. Bryden described Hagenbeck's "lion-tiger" hybrids:


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## Rhysc (Jan 9, 2010)

ooo, I stand corrected, I was under the impression it was a late 20th centuary thing.


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## ntvnm (Jan 9, 2010)

*YOUR ALL SO SMART AND NOLEGABLE* when carpets where imported
into the US ,they weren't marked as individual sub species ,only ''carpet pythons'' ,
every thing was marked as a '' carpet python''.
they didn't know any better, they had NO idea. its not like the got the pure stuff and 
said OH ,IM AMERICAN ,I IM GONNA CROSS EVERYTHING BECAUSE OF THE 
FACT THAT IM IN AMERICA AND IM IN AMERICA ,BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.it wasn't like that.

*THEY DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE ,BUT WE DO.* 

Seriously..i rang up the licensing people the other day ,i asked whats the deal with breeding 
hybrid pythons in NSW, they said just tell us and will make up a new species number.
makes me sick....the systems a joke..you can cross a spotted python with a woma 
and they will just put the ********* thing on, no questions asked.

Maybe if they took control and did something about it with BIGGER FINES and JAIL TIME
,(12 months jail would stop me from crossing sub species) and if it happend by accident. 
send dec over to there house and get them, not just make a new number and put on a big smile.

and maybe something other then a $500 doller fine payed off 5 bucks a week could decrease
the amount of illegal exotics.Australia is a great country, i love it. but being so strick ,yet being so stupid 
and not thinking about all aspects of everthing..is just silly. there are better ways and other things such 
as importing exotic stock ,quarantined stock and legalising it on paper ,this would reduce the amount 
and need to keep illigal exotics. there used to be heaps of people keeping wild caught coastals.
but now they can be bought for under a $100 bucks. i here of alot less people taking a trip up to 
queensland to catch coastals ,now that they are so cheap and can be kept on license. 
alot less people are doing it

where people hand in there illigal exotics, the government could bring in new clean stock and breed them.
they cant eliminate the problem, but surely they know that what they are doing now isn't working very well??
seriously there are THOUSANDS of exotics here and DEC know it, YET there aren't any boas or Burmese 
wild populations around??????

ok back to hybrids.

iv herd purists (people that love and cherish this hobby) are planning to ring up the big 
breeders of hybrids ,when they come public and are going to have ''a little get together''
so go for your life's ,but know this...there are some Wackos out there that don't like it.


Cheers.


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## getarealdog (Jan 9, 2010)

$$$ the root of all evil


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## dave8208 (Jan 9, 2010)

quote............ ( iv herd purists (people that love and cherish this hobby) are planning to ring up the big
breeders of hybrids ,when they come public and are going to have ''a little get together''
so go for your life's ,but know this...there are some Wackos out there that don't like it. ) ....unquote

is this a threat ???????? Mr ntvnm	...or Mrs ...

Wanna buy a Hybrid ?


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## ntvnm (Jan 9, 2010)

i think you misunderstood my post. settle down..
its wasn't a threat and i have no intentions of doing such things
i was talking about others.

cheers.


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## JasonL (Jan 9, 2010)

getarealdog said:


> $$$ the root of all evil



Yep... the dirty dollar creates hybrids, not septic tanks


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## tonesanlainie (Jan 9, 2010)

This is always a topic that gets attention and gives rise to strong opinions. I am someone of limited experience and knowledge and so from my view point if I were to breed a natural line how would I do it? I believe I would have to ensure both parents actually came from a specific location, and were typical of that species that had evolved from that location. Now buying from captive bred stock what evidence can be provided that I can buy a natural line? My questions are largely retorical as I am trying to make the point that in many respects origin is opinion based. DNA (from what I am told) would not necessarily identify species location so therefore any breeding would be "best guess" (unless physically collected) and so deviation from a "natural" line would occur. To be honest I don't know what a natural line is other than my best guess! As there is also am amount of natural variation this would also colour the waters of best guess as well.

From what I see it is largely about natural variation as opposed to deliberate variation. I understand there can be some health issues from deliberate crossing, and so too can there be from natural variation (for example albinism and effects on thermal conductance/camouflage etc), not to mention breeding back to parents and its effects on the gene pool. 

At the end of the day anything I see is best guess and if I want to see what is in the wild, then in the wild I go. Natuaral behavior is limited in an enclosure, as too is breeding. Perhaps a system of "certified lines would be needed to verify or give evidence of best guess. I am not saying this is practical, but maybe better than what we have now.

Cheers


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## cosmicwolf4 (Jan 9, 2010)

jamey said:


> These rediculous generalisations and accusations about people and things(ie:all americans are hybrid lovers/breeders) that most of you know absolutely nothing about are plain childish and very offensive to some.To the point that many americans who are antihybrid will not even participate in this forum any longer.There is nothing wrong with having your own opinion,especially when it is an educated opinion.Yes many here in the states create hybrids,but just as many or more do not.You simply see many of them because like anything else unique,they receive more attention and press.What makes it most frustrating,is that many of you have decided all americans are hybridisers based solely on that you have read it on the internet enough times!
> I am an american.I do not breed or keep hybrids/crosses.In the eyes of many here,that would make me an anomaly,wich is not even close to reality.
> And to the poster who lived in Canada and supposedly observed it firsthand?Last I checked Canada is part of North America,but no part of the USA.Most of the hybrid examples you gave(liger,etc.)did not originate in America.
> There is nothing wrong with being a purist and stating it proudly.Just stop stating as fact that it's all the americans fault.If an Australian keeper breeds hybrids,do you truly believe he'd never have done so if those [email protected] Americans had'nt?
> ...


 
Jamey, had you read my post correctly, you would have seen that I did NOT say that hybrid types named had originated there, but they sure as hell keep them going. I do know where they originated. I also visited many places in the USA during my time in Canada and saw the roadside zoos, the circuses etc. 
I also did NOT place all Americans in the same basket as I have American friends. I do know that they are by no means all the same. I realise that it is the minority who cause the problems. The major problem is that the minority who are doing the hybridization do NOT show the birth defects, mental problems and retardisation that come throuygh after breeding sibling to sibling andf parent to offspring in many, many cases. People who don't have a great deal of understanding see only the healthy and perfectly formed specimens that are put on show. 
I am not pointing fingers at an entire country as you choose to assume, instead I point the finger at the unscrupulous breeders who keep breeding at any cost. It would be the same if it was happening here to the same extent. 
I don't have an issue with true and proper breeding programs that have an open and honest approach, I do have a problem with animals dying to 'improve' the hybridization that goes against the natural order of species breeding.
I meant no offence to anyone and apologise if it was taken as such.


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## Serpentes (Jan 9, 2010)

JasonL said:


> Before you jump up and down about hybrids, you need to ask yourself "what is a hybrid?"....who is right? you are of course



Firstly, thankyou, I am always right, except for the time I thought I'd made a mistake.

Secondly, what if I breed two snakes that are later found to be distinct species? I guess they would automatically become hybrids, and the converse true if two species were lumped into one. It's a tricky old world, but especially for those who 1. breed hybrids and 2. stroke their ego with snakes (inseparable).

Mmmmmm, stroked ego.


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jan 9, 2010)

i cant believe this is STILL going, you do know more than half of these comments will be eventually removed and this thread closed right? and it looks like its starting to go down hill now, so ill just jump off the bad wagon at this point and watch from a safe distance. 

oh by the way someone may have sabotaged the breaks


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## JasonL (Jan 9, 2010)

Serpentes said:


> Firstly, thankyou, I am always right, except for the time I thought I'd made a mistake.
> 
> Secondly, what if I breed two snakes that are later found to be distinct species? I guess they would automatically become hybrids, and the converse true if two species were lumped into one. It's a tricky old world, but especially for those who 1. breed hybrids and 2. stroke their ego with snakes (inseparable).
> 
> Mmmmmm, stroked ego.



You only should breed snakes found within a 500 meter radius of each other, and they also have to be captive bred from captive bred ancestry as we can't condone poaching.... but don't inbreed them either, thats just wrong


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## Serpentes (Jan 9, 2010)

Alternately we could just hybridise until we only have one mega-uber-super single hybrid snake type that can't breed. We should start a club now so that we can direct the predominant form that this single species should have. I reckon it should turn out kind of big, but not too big, and pretty, and a good feeder. But most of all, I want it to not poo. Ever. Can we do that yet?


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## pythons73 (Jan 9, 2010)

JasonL said:


> You only should breed snakes found within a 500 meter radius of each other, and they also have to be captive bred from captive bred ancestry as we can't condone poaching.... but don't inbreed them either, thats just wrong


 Looks as thou no-one should be breeding then.Either way people are breeding them if we like it or not..But in no way do i condone it..but i will admit some look nice...MARK


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## D3pro (Jan 9, 2010)

Do hybrids come naturally in the wild? Like, if there was a female coastal, and met up by a male python of another kind... will they make little hybrid abominations?


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## NickM (Jan 9, 2010)

I cant believe I read this entire thread!!!

What a bunch of garbage! I would like to point out the obvious since nobody noticed in 5 pages:

THE FIRST PICTURE IN THIS THREAD IS NOT A HYBRID ITS AN ANGOLAN PYTHON!!!!! I dont know where the young person who started this thead got the idea it was a BredliXball python, its just a typical angolan python, not a hybrid at all.

I wouls also like to say that I am an AMERICAN and I am a FANATICAL purist. Nobody likes to be part of an ignorant stereotype so please think for minute before you post please.

I frequent this forum because I like to hear the Australian perpective on these snakes, and to look at all the great animals, but honestly the anti-ameican attitudes are getting tiresome. 


Nick


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## Dipcdame (Jan 9, 2010)

It is a fact that hybrids, once bred, are sterile. At least with the ligers, and the donkey zebra crosses etc, perhaps theres a message there from mother nature............. don't mess with stuff concerning her, she don't like it!


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## krefft (Jan 9, 2010)

Our hobby is changing. Every one of us at some stage has tried to win over friends and family to the joys of keeping Reptiles. Well now it’s happening. Suddenly “non herp” people want to keep a pet snake. One that looks good, is easy to keep and feed, and won’t bite. In time, some of those people may become “Herps”. They may want to see these animals in their natural habitat, and keep ones that look more like the “real thing”, but perhaps they won’t. 
They may want to create something stunning that’s never been seen before. Ultimately it will be the individual who decides what they prefer.
What’s wrong with wanting some locale specific animals _and_ some which are crosses? We don’t need to be on one side or the other. Cat people can still keep dogs.
Whatever you decide good luck. However if someone has the opposite view, providing no laws are being broken it should be there choice.
The most important thing is that buyers know what they are getting, and people are honest about what they are selling.


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## krefft (Jan 9, 2010)

JasonL said:


> You only should breed snakes found within a 500 meter radius of each other, and they also have to be captive bred from captive bred ancestry as we can't condone poaching.... but don't inbreed them either, thats just wrong


 

Jason, that was the best post of the year so far...


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## JasonL (Jan 9, 2010)

NickM said:


> I
> but honestly the anti-ameican attitudes are getting tiresome.
> Nick



I agree, anti-American is so yester-year.......... anti Indian is all the rage atm..


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## JasonL (Jan 9, 2010)

krefft said:


> Jason, that was the best post of the year so far...



I learnt that from all my years online..


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## Serpentes (Jan 9, 2010)

NickM said:


> Nobody likes to be part of an ignorant stereotype so please think for minute before you post please..... but honestly the anti-ameican attitudes are getting tiresome. Nick



Well said, Nick, but please be aware that some of your less intelligent countrymen have posted on this forum to assert their 1. superiority of hybrids and morphs and 2. status as, and I quote with a big cheesy grin "big American breeders"!

Racial stereotypes are silly of course, and it must suck to be included in one you dislike. Anyway, my kangaroo needs a feed and I have to polish my Akubra and Blunnies, then put fuel in the ute, eat a meat pie and buy beer: there's a bush dance on in the woolshed tonight!


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## ntvnm (Jan 9, 2010)

kreft - The people that keep herps arnt called herps :lol: its either herpers or herp keepers.


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## JasonL (Jan 9, 2010)

Serpentes said:


> . Anyway, my kangaroo needs a feed and I have to polish my Akubra and Blunnies, then put fuel in the ute, eat a meat pie and buy beer: there's a bush dance on in the woolshed tonight!



I didn't realise you lived in the city?


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## Serpentes (Jan 9, 2010)

Ya own a ute in the city and a 'cruiser in the bush, mate. 'Course I'm a city-slicker. No sheilas in the bush, or only rough ones. Where's me pie and me VB gone? "SHAZZA, WHERE'S ME BEER?"


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## Contagion (Jan 9, 2010)

Serpentes said:


> Ya own a ute in the city and a 'cruiser in the bush, mate. 'Course I'm a city-slicker. No sheilas in the bush, or only rough ones. Where's me pie and me VB gone? "SHAZZA, WHERE'S ME BEER?"



I'll take offence to that! anyone who drinks VB should be shot. Otherwise, no problem. 

LMAO, angolan python... nice.


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## RemoverAccount (Jan 9, 2010)

NickM said:


> .
> 
> I frequent this forum because I like to hear the Australian perpective on these snakes, and to look at all the great animals, but honestly the anti-ameican attitudes are getting tiresome.
> 
> Nick


 
dont take it personally - we dont discriminate here in Ossy - everyone's a target - so take your medicine say thankyou and come back for more!!


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## jamey (Jan 10, 2010)

Just like Nick,I highly value this site for the wealth of info available from Ausssies who have the privilige of working with the purest natural forms of these animals.
It is not personal attacks.It is the guilt by nationalisation sentiment that makes visits and posts here less than enjoyable.Although as one poster noted,I have seen the occasional hybridiser here trying to sing the praises of hybrids.Hybrids are not the way of the future....just another passing fad.
All the best,
Jamey


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## Jakee (Jan 10, 2010)

Hmmm, even womas are being cross bred with ball pythons over there..


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## Jen (Jan 10, 2010)

Dipcdame said:


> It is a fact that hybrids, once bred, are sterile. At least with the ligers, and the donkey zebra crosses etc, perhaps theres a message there from mother nature............. don't mess with stuff concerning her, she don't like it!



Ligers aren't sterile, the males typically have a low sperm count, but can reproduce, and the females are usually ok for breeding as well. Hybrid sterility isn't a fact, but is reliant on how close the parent species are to each other.


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## D3pro (Jan 10, 2010)

lol this thing is still going... I would't cross breed, but if a hybrid is really pretty I might be tempted to buy it...


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## cosmicwolf4 (Jan 10, 2010)

Jen said:


> Ligers aren't sterile, the males typically have a low sperm count, but can reproduce, and the females are usually ok for breeding as well. Hybrid sterility isn't a fact, but is reliant on how close the parent species are to each other.


 
This is true, but in reality, the female usually has trouble with pregnancy and delivery due to size and the mother or infant mortality rate is very high. Birth defects are also a major issue as is brain malformation. The simple fact is the liger or tigon are bred from animals that do not naturally come into close contact due to their habitats and breeding would never be possible without human intervention.
Also horses and donkeys and horses and zebras are close genetically, but their mixed offspring are mostly sterile, although an occasional offspring is found.


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## Jen (Jan 10, 2010)

cosmicwolf4 said:


> This is true, but in reality, the female usually has trouble with pregnancy and delivery due to size and the mother or infant mortality rate is very high. Birth defects are also a major issue as is brain malformation. The simple fact is the liger or tigon are bred from animals that do not naturally come into close contact due to their habitats and breeding would never be possible without human intervention.
> Also horses and donkeys and horses and zebras are close genetically, but their mixed offspring are mostly sterile, although an occasional offspring is found.



Exactly, occasional offspring is still offspring, naturally occurring or not. Even if 1% of any live offspring in subsequent generations is fertile, that is still a hybrid that is able to reproduce. I am torn on the hybrid debate, leaning toward disagreeing with the practice as I for one wouldn't like to buy an animal slated as 'pure' only to find it is a 'mongrel'.


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## D3pro (Jan 10, 2010)

Jen said:


> Exactly, occasional offspring is still offspring, naturally occurring or not. Even if 1% of any live offspring in subsequent generations is fertile, that is still a hybrid that is able to reproduce. I am torn on the hybrid debate, leaning toward disagreeing with the practice as I for one wouldn't like to buy an animal slated as 'pure' only to find it is a 'mongrel'.



I agree, it would make me quite sad to find out that one of my pythons (which are all pure) turned out to be a hybrid. If people are going to breed hybrids, they should sell them as such. If someone wants to but a hybrid then that their own decision, but if someone is looking for a pure and are sold a hybrid thats just all kinds of wrong.


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## Sdaji (Jan 10, 2010)

JasonL: I love your work 



Dipcdame said:


> It is a fact that hybrids, once bred, are sterile. At least with the ligers, and the donkey zebra crosses etc, perhaps theres a message there from mother nature............. don't mess with stuff concerning her, she don't like it!



I am not fond of heavy hybridising (I don't even personally like interlocality hybrids, let alone intertaxa hybrids), but that argument doesn't stand up. If mother nature's way of letting us know she doesn't like hybrids is to make them sterile, she is giving us the green light to hybridise every species of python with every other species, so according to that, cross your Womas with your Chondros and your Scrubbies with your Olives, as they'll all be fertile.

We all want alterations of what mother nature created, even locality purists like myself. We want better feeders, brighter colours, friendly Jungles, etc. Don't ask me why it matters to me, because I don't have a reason other than "I like locality pure, just because I do".

Since I can't come up with an argument which has any basis other than my own sentimentality and personal preference, I can't find a reason to tell people they "shouldn't" hybridise (where legal), just that I would prefer them not to, and of course, I can't expect people to behave as I would like them to, just because I want it. It's just like someone telling me that I shouldn't want a striped Spotted Python or albino Water Python, because it isn't natural, mother nature doesn't want it. If I was lucky enough to hatch albino Water Pythons, I can tell you I would be producing more of them, and doing it proudly (and for strange reasons even I don't understand, I would want to keep them locality pure, and be a little sad when other people crossed them with another locality, although I wouldn't be able to give them a solid reason not to).

Australians seem to me to be divided similarly to Americans when it comes to hybrids, but with more Americans, there are more of everything, purists and hybrid lovers. That means that there are more hybrids over there than here, so we might have the perception that they're 'worse' than us, but it's simply that there are more of them.

I find it sad that in time it will be very difficult to work out what type of snake you have, not just the locality of your Carpet (let's face it, that boat has already sailed in most cases; heck, it's not even easy to find a locality pure Coastal Carpet Python these days, unless you go for something illegally poached!) but also the exact mix of _species_ that snake in the pet shop has. Hopefully at least for the rest of my life there will be enough people who are very careful and keen enough to maintain pure lines. Towards the end of my lifetime, maybe sooner, we should have pocket gadgets which will be able to DNA test animals on the spot and tell us exactly what they are (at least at the taxa/species sort of level). Hopefully we'll still have pure lines when DNA testing gadgets are cheap enough for everyone to have one, and from there it will be easy to keep track of everything. Of course, perhaps we'll all starve to death or die in nuclear wars before then anyway.


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## BROWNS (Jan 10, 2010)

Damn it I cants gets no sleep so I thought I'd comment even though this debate's been done to death.

If it was a hybrid I'm quite sure you would know as soon as you see it.Hybrids are crossing different species like a jungle with a woma ,if it were to happen any knowledgable person will see the animals aren't pure anything.If you're talking crossing jungles with diamonds and coastals etc then you will not be able to definitely tell if the animals are pure or not.The fact that they bred together in the first place would suggest fertile young.

This brings me to an answer I've never been given which is how they go about producing hybrid pythons as in the wild several python species live side by side yet most won't breed unless they are the same species or sub species such as intergrade zones etc.Do they mate the animals at all?I mean within any species surely they wouldn't mate with completely different species or do they use artificial insemination or what?If they would actually mate and produce fertile offspring or not why in nature once in a blue moon don't pythons like scrubbies breed with jungles or coastals,antaresia with morelia sp etc etc. yet apparently a clutch of coastal scrubby crosses occured from a random mating from a male coastal over a female scrub in captivity in Vic from memory.There's a quite old book by Hoser with a pic of a coastal x scrubby.Funnily enough I knew an idiot who was mates with Hoser who said he caught the cross up North himself lol..I'd like to know but honestly could not be bothered searching the net to find out that's how much it interests me.

Of most sub speecies crosses I've had limited occasions to view and/or own none looked as good as eithr natural form bar one or two such as darwins x jungles which looked just like jungles which even very experienced ppl thought were pure jungles but the colour was very different and easy to see if you have kept and seen many many jungles.I had a jungle diamond cross that nobody at all could tell was not a pure jungle.

Totally disagree with hybrids in the true sense being the crossing of two different species however not radically opposed to morelia crosse however as mentioned most pure forms are much nicer.The problem will happen now moreso than any other time with the introduction of jags and albinos.There's plenty of possible pure morphs especially with darwins so why even bother crossing, try keeping it pure working with the variety there is such as hypo darwins,hyper,striped,ghosts if they actually got proven out with the very reduced patterns not just striped.It's happening as we speak however we have the option to keep pure animals but it is inevitable the jag gene will ruin and/or create a great many bloodlines,selective breeding at it's best...If I got a jag I'd try create a spasm morph first and would have a good chance of buying the morph like that already with no creation or help from me at all.......lol

It's the jags and albinos then striped animals,t+ albinos,patternleesanimals and all the other morphs that will come from them it could end up like the ball python world with carpets.Newbies to the hobby are going to go for the brightly coloured and uniquely patterned snakes"morphs" when looking at a coastal carpet compared to a jag or albino will go for the latter,I know I would if I came into the hobby in ten years time when albinos will be as common as coastals both morelia sp and antaresia if they successfully breed the albino mac at snake ranch.The morphs will become so common due to the massive diversity of the morelia group especially where it will unfortunately end up like the ball python world...do we want this to happen?Is there room for both?How credible will peoplebe when selling crosses etc?If in Qld it is illegal to breed albinos apparently would be a good law to be taken on by all states however still hving albinos but illegal to cros?How can this possibly be policed?It's almost like being allowed to grow 2 pot plants in your garden in the capital of our great country yet in Qld it's looked on as a serious crime,are we one country or not?All states should have the same laws it's so absurd unless things have changed and you can't grow a couple of plants in S.A or ACT........../..now where's that billy


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## BROWNS (Jan 10, 2010)

lol posted at this time too lol sleepless night too sadji?


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## Dipcdame (Jan 10, 2010)

jamey said:


> Just like Nick,I highly value this site for the wealth of info available from Ausssies who have the privilige of working with the purest natural forms of these animals.
> It is not personal attacks.It is the guilt by nationalisation sentiment that makes visits and posts here less than enjoyable.Although as one poster noted,I have seen the occasional hybridiser here trying to sing the praises of hybrids.Hybrids are not the way of the future....just another passing fad.
> All the best,
> Jamey



Passing fad? Ohh how wonderful it would be were that correct. 

Some say it would be easy to tell the crosses/mongrels/hydrids on here, obviously because of their experience and skill at being able to correctly identify different species. However, speaking as someone who just goes oooohhh.. pretty, I bow to your expertise. As hard as I have tried, I still cannot correctly identify even pure breds, what chance would someone like me have if hybrids were rife? Any unscrupulous breeder would be able to successfully convince me an animal is exactly what they SAY it is!!!!!!! (NO, I'm not in the market to buy at present, lol)

In many ways, the practice is just wrong.


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## cosmicwolf4 (Jan 10, 2010)

Dipcdame said:


> Passing fad? Ohh how wonderful it would be were that correct.
> 
> Some say it would be easy to tell the crosses/mongrels/hydrids on here, obviously because of their experience and skill at being able to correctly identify different species. However, speaking as someone who just goes oooohhh.. pretty, I bow to your expertise. As hard as I have tried, I still cannot correctly identify even pure breds, what chance would someone like me have if hybrids were rife? Any unscrupulous breeder would be able to successfully convince me an animal is exactly what they SAY it is!!!!!!! (NO, I'm not in the market to buy at present, lol)
> 
> In many ways, the practice is just wrong.


 
Where I have a major issue (apart from the breeding itself) is when the breeders start selling 'mongrel' animals at above pure prices.
Look for instance at the so called 'designer' dogs we are being flooded with. At one time these poor things couldn't be given away and now are selling for above what the pure ones are in a lot of cases. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that stage with snakes. Especially as Dipcdame says, many people, myself included could well be duped into it. 
I just don't want to buy into cross bred animals this way. I have crossbreed dogs, but would never buy one as a statement, nor as something to be re-crossed. They have all been desexed. It would be the same with reptiles as far as I am concerned.


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## pythonsrule888 (Jan 13, 2010)

bottom line is.... 

if you love hybrids sooooo..... much!!!

MOVE TO AMERICA!!!!


or the U.K

By the way good call Greebo


=P


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## unique (Jan 13, 2010)

heres a coma ,off a yank site.

please note - lack of heat pits


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## cris (Jan 13, 2010)

I really cant make my mind up on this issue, im against repeated breeding of hybrids that are just stupid eg. comas, although its interesting to know that such diverse crosses are viable. Animals that would naturally breed if they came into contact are differant IMO. Crossing differant races or types of the same sort of reptile from differant areas obvious has potential to create differant looking reptiles or transfer desirable traits. 

I still like to breed locale pure stuff where i know it is locale pure(this would be about half my herps), but i have been thinking about crossing gold and blue tree snakes (as well as also breeding locale pure). To me if the primary objective is producing nice unique looking snakes mixing snakes from differant locales and arbitrary names can produce some good results. An example of a nice snake like this would be a platinum mac, which i understand is a cross between a stimpson/mac intergrade/natural hybrid and a blond mac(please correct me if im wrong). Hybridising is a natural proccess, its just that most animals dont have cars or planes to get about and often stay in a prefered habitat.

On the anti-american issue, i think its a good indicator of low IQ.


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## borntobnude (Jan 14, 2010)

Hey i have friends Hes samoan grew up in NZ lives in OZ shes english grew up in Germany then UK lives in OZ they got married. Now they want to breed . 
Dam Hybrids


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## 1234callan1234 (Jan 14, 2010)

isnt it just like a american person having a baby with aus person ? lol


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## Vixen (Jan 14, 2010)

1234callan1234 said:


> isnt it just like a american person having a baby with aus person ? lol



No.. we are the same species.


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## Southside Morelia (Jan 14, 2010)

ive seen B&W's similar......oh forgot to mention NOT this bloody topic AGAIN!!!! lol


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## reptileKev81 (Jan 14, 2010)

Just wondering if crossbreeding ever happens in the wild?
I saw in a documentary that the house cat is a hybrid between 2 different wild cat species.

And just wanted to say, I've seen many of jays youtube videos on reptilezoo and prehistoric pets.
Man I hate those LAME F#@KEN NAMES they give to their hybrids. Whirlwinds and sunfires etc. Obviously a tactic to make them seem more desirable and have owners part with more money :x


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## cris (Jan 14, 2010)

For those that believe something needs a differant name to be a hybrid, read this or refer to some sort of reliable scientific source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2010)

VixenBabe said:


> No.. we are the same species.


 
so is a carpet from coffs harbour and a carpet from prossipine yet the thought of crossing them two seems to cause as much fuss on here as that wall python!


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## cris (Jan 14, 2010)

magick81 said:


> Just wondering if crossbreeding ever happens in the wild?
> I saw in a documentary that the house cat is a hybrid between 2 different wild cat species.
> 
> And just wanted to say, I've seen many of jays youtube videos on reptilezoo and prehistoric pets.
> Man I hate those LAME F#@KEN NAMES they give to their hybrids. Whirlwinds and sunfires etc. Obviously a tactic to make them seem more desirable and have owners part with more money :x



Yes some hybrids do occur naturally. Unfortunately hybrids arnt the only reptiles that get stupid trendy names.


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