# Please Explain Mr Stone



## PilbaraPythons (Apr 8, 2008)

As I know Doc Rock is a member of this site, I hereby challenge Simon Stone to back up his claims that he is making that first generation captive breed reptiles have a worst temperament than second or third generation.

Lets here your methods and results from your clinical experiments analyzing the comparisons. 
Or is your up and coming article about this very subject and a warning to avoid wild caught reptiles just a way to gain a few more sales? Please enlighten us Mr. Stone, I can’t wait, and of course I would hate to have my belief in what your intentions are all mixed up.

Cheers Dave


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## arbok (Apr 8, 2008)

lol,
doesnt really make sense either way... either that or ive got it all wrong!

because wild caught u could get some good temprement and bad temprement right Dave?
and captive bred its the same deal....
3rd and fourth generation could only really make if a difference if you selectively breed the oneswith the "best" temprements...

just my understanding of it... correct me if im wayyyy of!


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## Splitmore (Apr 8, 2008)

whats with all the popcorn rubbish?
Dave has simply asked Stone to provide the back up evidence to support his claims which he has apparently left out of the article. As a breeder myself I am extremely interested in Simon Stones study and how he has come to his conclusions about temperament in first and second generation offspring. Maybe Stone has unlocked the secret in how to effectively 'domesticate' an amimal which has evolved over thousands of years in one or two generations.
Surely thats worth asking the question.


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## arbok (Apr 8, 2008)

Splitmore said:


> whats with all the popcorn rubbish?
> Dave has simply asked Stone to provide the back up evidence to support his claims which he has apparently left out of the article. As a breeder myself I am extremely interested in Simon Stones study and how he has come to his conclusions about temperament in first and second generation offspring. Maybe Stone has unlocked the secret in how to effectively 'domesticate' an amimal which has evolved over thousands of years in one or two generations.
> Surely thats worth asking the question.


 
when i read the article, i just assumed he bred the ones with good temprement.. lol


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## Hickson (Apr 8, 2008)

I strongly believe that there is nothing wrong with asking a valid question, even of our sponsors. However, the tone of the first post in this thread is a little hostile. This may well be unintentional, but it has still come across that way and we have had complaints (which is why I mention it).

The Mods will be watching this thread, so please keep all discussions civil. Members are allowed to have different viewpoints, and you can agree to disagree. But please refrain from indulging in any name-calling or general nastiness simply because someone has a different opinion to yours. 



Hix


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## TrueBlue (Apr 8, 2008)

I would also like to know the answer to Daves question, as many breeders claim to breed for temperament. Yet to me the perfect example would be dogs, they have been domesticly bred for hundreds, possibly thousands of years, yet you can still get aggresive and non-aggresive dogs in a litter no matter how they are raised, or by whom.


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## Retic (Apr 8, 2008)

I thought we had this exact same thread a couple of months ago ?


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## Ricko (Apr 8, 2008)

This is a new article i believe boa.


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## Retic (Apr 8, 2008)

Oh OK, thanks. It's basically the same question asked before though.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 8, 2008)

Furthermore I am appealing for evidence from Simon Stone on how he concludes temperament improvement from 1st generation to 2nd etc. That was never asked for nor given in the thread you are referring to Boa.


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## pugsly (Apr 8, 2008)

You think that he is going to reply?

No chance.. I'm with you though, 1st or 50th, all the same, ask Scarffy, no difference.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 8, 2008)

I have no idea whether he will reply or not.
The challenge has been made, it is now up to him to explain, if he wants to of course.

Cheers Dave


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## Splitmore (Apr 8, 2008)

Exactly pugsly, most breeders will tell you exactly the same thing, unless of course they are pedalling their own hatchlings and making them out to be something special. Thats why I'd love to hear how he's managed to do it.


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## rexs1 (Apr 9, 2008)

I have bred jungles that from the first generation to successive generations show completely different personalities. From the same clutch of any generation you can get exeptionally quiet animals through to complete psycho's. Some breeds(womas, B/Hs) the whole clutch are usually quiet natured snakes. It will be interesting to hear Simon's reasons for his observations.
cheers Rex


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## wokka (Apr 9, 2008)

Theres been very little work done on heretability in reptile although we all have our theories. I think one of the biggest furphies is the supposed heritability of appearance. We,ve all seen good and bad come out of the same clutch.I suppose the more generations captive bred animals become they should naturally select 'independant of the keeper' towards suitability for captive keeping. In the extreme case those that are not suited die and so dont breed but I suggest the genetic progrees is relatively slow. Keeper are always claiming credit for what the animals do naturally.


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## Sdaji (Apr 9, 2008)

There was a thread on this topic a year or two ago. It was quite possibly the most ridiculous thread the site has ever seen (and that's _really_ saying something! :shock: ). I don't think many people understand the heritability of behaviour well at all, and due to what happened last time, I'm not even going to try to throw my 2c in, other than to say that APS is probably not the best place to be discussing the topic. The last thread proved that someone describing obvious facts is no match for a swarm of people convinced of nonsense.


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## Retic (Apr 9, 2008)

:lol:


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 9, 2008)

Conclusions that can be considered fact are not always fact because they were subject to an experiment, e.g we know that 2 + 2 = 4 without having to count out bananas.
When you are talking about reptile placidness or temperament change between first generation and 2nd with no selective breeding involved however, this can only be evaluated by practical experiment and a quantified way of comparing that temperament.
I simply ask the question, has he done such an experiment and if so please enlighten with some details to cross examine. 

As Mr Stone has previously publicly stated, that there have been a number of wild caught snakes exported from W.A and their first generation captive bred offspring are more problematic than 2nd generation etc, then it would be logical to assume that he either, had wild caught W.A snakes in such an experiment himself or knows of someone else that have used these reptiles in such an experiment. As we clearly know what species have been exported and had captive breed offspring off of most, we know his claim is flawed and hence the questions. 
Those that bleat that this subject is done to death then you have the choice to never view this thread again. I am betting you still do.

Cheers Dave


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## chilli (Apr 9, 2008)

dave, you seem to think everything Dr Stone writes or says is a sly shot at you that you require him to justify. he just states what he thinks and that can be formed from observations, anecdotes etc without the necessity for scientific evaluations. don't read his articles with the view that he's having a shot at you, cause i'm sure he doesn't give you a thought when he's writing them

cheers, got any 'pinstripe' stimmies


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## flavirufus (Apr 10, 2008)

I have to agree with Chilli, Dave you seem to take everything Simon says or writes so personally. The basis of this whole debate is whether captive bred animals are better captives than wild caught animals. Every experienced keeper in the world knows that, on average, captive bred animals are far superior. However, this fact doesn't mean there isn't a reason to take from the wild, doesn't mean that many wild caught snakes can't make good captives, and doesn't mean that licenced wild collectors are evil people. Just relax, let go of the jealousy, and be comfortable with the fact that you believe you're going about your herping career the right way.
Regards,
Matt


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## ad (Apr 10, 2008)

I disagree,
If simon stone is an expert writing articles in Australian Reptile Mags,
He should clarify his statements if questioned - if he is basing them on scientific study let us know.

The question is in regards to 1st generation hatchies v multi generation hatchies, I cannot see any differences between the animals I have bred. They don't get any friendlier or more aggressive the more generations I have bred, but I am a comparitive newcomer,

What science has Simon applied to his statements is all Dave is asking, and a few more breeders would like the wealth of Simon's experience to elaborate.
Cheers
Adam


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## salebrosus (Apr 10, 2008)

ad said:


> I disagree,
> If simon stone is an expert writing articles in Australian Reptile Mags,
> He should clarify his statements if questioned - if he is basing them on scientific study let us know.
> 
> ...



Couldn't have put it better myself.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 10, 2008)

I actually agree with most of what he has said about wild caught snakes. And many points are proven and valid. Let’s keep this clear though, I am simply asking a question that heaps of well known herpers in this country would like an answer to in regards to 1st generation compared to 2nd generation, nothing else, (yet ).

The importance of accountability from un proven or unsupported claims that influence people (especially new keepers) in a popular reptile magazine however, erodes the very value of such a publication. That is only one part of what is wrong here.

To add fuel to the motivation of this thread ( and to keep this honest ) I must mention that I have been rung up by several people and informed that Mr Stone was very annoyed (and that word is being polite) with me over questioning his integrity in a similar thread a while back Furthermore I was also told that his up and coming article was an indirect dig at me because of it. I would sincerely like to think that this is not true as this would be disappointing (not to mention unethical) and to be fair to Simon I should not condemn him on rumor, especially as I haven’t yet ever read the alleged article.

And Flavirufus
If you think I am the jealous type, then you clearly don’t know me very well at all and I can tell you that you are way off the mark. I do admire his marketing skills however.
It is funny though how often when somebody takes somebody to task, the cop out is always “Oh he must be jealous”. Of course it wouldn’t have anything to do with me and others getting clarification about his statement which could clearly effect peoples perception of our own 1st generation captive bred progeny would it now? 

Taking your tact though, it could be also alleged that Mr Stone is the one who is jealous of the huge amounts of captive bred woma’s from easily obtained wild caught specimens that we and others are pumping out which has clearly had a huge impact on bringing down prices of a species he no doubt has done financially well on over the years. Rather than being jealous I prefer to think that as a businessman he would just be plain livid which is totally understandable, as if the boot was on the other foot, I would be also.

Cheers Dave


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## flavirufus (Apr 10, 2008)

ad said:


> He should clarify his statements if questioned - if he is basing them on scientific study let us know.



Hi Adam,

Of course he's not basing it on a scientific study! If we had to carry out a scientific study before we shared our thoughts on anything about reptile keeping, we'd be living in near complete ignorance. No one's asking Dave to provide scientific evidence for any of his claims regarding wild caught animals and nor should we either.

There are however some wonderful studies on selective breeding (no, they're not on reptiles, yes, they are applicable to reptiles) that clearly demonstartive that behavioural characteristics can be selected for. Therefore, there is a scientific basis for Simon's claims. I haven't seen the '1st generation hatchies v multi generation hatchies' staement other than in these threads, but this would still hold true if selective pressure have been applied (either by passive or active selection).

It's possible Simon will be elaborating on his thoughts in future magazine articles. Given the debate seems to have arisen because of past articles, that seems like an appropriate forum.

Regards,
Matt


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## Slateman (Apr 10, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> I have no idea whether he will reply or not.
> The challenge has been made, it is now up to him to explain, if he wants to of course.
> 
> Cheers Dave



Hmm. I don't see why he should. 
Most of this stuff was said when there was discussion about his article in Australian Magazine few months ago.

I don't think that he is going to slander other herpetologists in public forum in so call challenge.:shock:


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2008)

I tend to agree, there is no real reason for him to explain his opinion. He has bred many 100's of snakes and is no doubt basing his findings on what he has observed over the years. 
People who want to buy wild caught will do so and the same applies to those who favour captive bred and many who have no preference either way.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 10, 2008)

But boa the question asked was not about wild caught animals, it was about 1st generation captive bred against 2nd, 3rd etc.
Which every experianced herper that i know of will tell you there is no difference in keeping or temperament wise.
Infact imo with first generation you still have a lot of genetic diversity to work with, which is excitting stuff as any thing may pop up.
Once the animals have been breed for 3 or so generations pretty much all that is lost and only the same boring forms will always appear.
So imo 1st generation captive bred is far more excitting to work with and in that sence, dear i say, superior to 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2008)

Rob, I'm not quite sure what you are saying. You said this in relation to hypo coastals "but these are the real deal and have taken a bit off selective breeding to produce.
The next couple of generations will see some real screemers pop out for sure." 
Doesn't what you just said completely contradict this ? Surely the whole point of captive breeding is to do exactly what you said above, through several generations you refine the best points ? If anything exciting has been lost why bother continuing with a line to improve it which is what just about every breeder does ?


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## SnakePower (Apr 10, 2008)

I agree that these articles have been taken far too personally, when I think the idea behind them is to primarily educate newbies to the hobbie. These articles are stating what many people know is the case, but never say. It goes to reason that a captive bred animal is going to be a better suited captive as it knows no life as a wild animal of the same. Therefore it will eat easier once feeding, not necessarily having to go "hunting" for it's meals etc and same goes with breeding time. A captive bred animal is exactly that a captive bred animal, not a wild one trying to accept it's new life as a captive. While many animals I am sure adjust well to becoming captives, some just don't. It is these basic points/reasons that I think the articles have been trying to get across. 

100% with Boa on this! Just about every major breeder selectively breeds to further improve their lines that they work with. Also many top breeders like to quote the no of generations that their animals are captive bred, as it makes them "better animals", Or at least that is what the majority believe. Doc Rock is certainly not the only person that does this. It is done by several breeders that have already contributed to this thread!! :shock:
I personaly think captive bred animals are much easier to work with. Having bred both W/C and C/B animals, I certainly prefer the C/B animals when I can work with them. Of course C/B is not always available from new lines or localities and this is when I choose to work with W/C. 

But that is not the purpose of this thread is it?? The question posed is easily answered by it'self without needing Doc Rock to get involved, and prove his statements with scientific evidence!  It is just common sense! Of course there are always exceptions to these generalisations, but in the most part they are true. And I believe the whole purpose of his articles in the Reptiles Aust. mag is aimed at helping educate people and also in a large part aimed at newbies to the hobbie as they are not always aware of some of these things that the more experienced herpers would already know from their own experiences!


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## TrueBlue (Apr 10, 2008)

snakepower, like boa you are refering to wild caught, the question Dave asked is to do with 1st generation captive bred v mulit-generation captive bred.

boa, but they are still only 1st generation not multi generation, it was just a matter of sourcing the right animals to start with. These have been put on the back burner the last few years because of the many animals that ive been breeding for a few other people.


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2008)

Rob, are you saying those hypos are first generation ? I thought they were descended from legally caught Sunshine Coast animals from years ago ? If they are first generation then I apologise for my error. The fact remains that by saying "The next couple of generations will see some real screemers pop out for sure" you are implying at least that they will be improving as you would expect from selective breeding. 
Thanks


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## TrueBlue (Apr 10, 2008)

thats correct boa, thats why first generation imo are much better as you still have more genetic diversity, once they become 3rd gen or more a lot of the thrill is lost because you pretty much know what they will always look like.
And yes they were sourced from long term captive animals, from a few people that have been in the the game for many many years when you were allowed to collect from the wild.
A couple of the founder animals were so old i werent sure they would even breed, both have since died from what i belive to be old age.


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## Gonzo (Apr 10, 2008)

*In response to Please explain Mr Stone*

I don’t think that it is a good thing for people to blindly accept any statement made as fact. I think that questioning such statements and asking for proof is an intelligent reaction. I believe that if something is written as fact, then the writer should be prepared to back it up with evidence. If someone can’t back up a statement with specific proof or evidence, then it should not be written as though it were a fact. Without proof, it is just their opinion, and should be clearly identified as just that – opinion. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but there is something wrong with passing opinion off as fact.
There is a good example of this type of thing in the "Please explain..." thread. Someone stated, as though it were an indisputable fact, that, “Every experienced keeper in the world knows that, on average, captive bred animals are far superior.” This is an extremely strong statement. “Every experienced keeper in the world”???? Exactly what level of experience do these keepers have? Are there any members of this forum that have this level of experience? Please state the level of experience required.
I’m not saying that the statement isn’t true, as I can't prove this. It’s possible that it is true. Personally, I don't think it is. I disagree and believe that some experienced keepers in the world don’t believe that captive bred animals are far superior. My belief could however be changed if some valid proof were presented. 
I don’t think this statement is a fact. I think it is the opinion of someone, who would like to think that the rest of the herping community are like minded, and will agree without question.
However, when presented with statements such as these, some of us would like to see/hear/read the proof – if it exists.

Gonzo


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## Miss_Croft (Apr 10, 2008)

Here is the original thread on this topic.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/wild-caught-debate-76277

From the experience of breeders in the US is that captive breed animals do better in captivity. The breeders have found captive breed reptiles have better temperament, greater egg production and higher hatch rate in incubators. 

Reptile keepers also found second generation captive bred animals were better than the first generation and main wild caught animals would waist away (For no apparent reason). Even force feeding failed.

That been said – others have pointed out their personal experience with Australian reptiles – this indicates a few things – how the original reptile was selected (US wild caught animals are normally imported from another country and not selected by an expert), lower stress of transit from wild to captivity (Not packed into crowded crates, holding pens or bags). Or it could be just a bias opinion.

The Australian experience also indicates many of the Australian animals can adapt and breed well in captivity (If not better than many of the domesticated imported pets).


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 10, 2008)

You all seem to be trying very hard to make a mountain out of a molehill. There are pros and cons for each - wild caught and captive bred... there will be people who patronise Pilbara Pythons BECAUSE they have wild-caught stuff and there will be people who patronise Southern Cross reptiles BECAUSE they have high quality captive bred stuff.

Soon enough Pilbara Pythons will be reduced to selling captive bred stuff too, when DEC eventually removes taker's licences from their system.

I am certain that worldwide opinion, as far as the "pet" reptile trade is concerned, leans far more towards the belief that captive bred animals make better "pets." This opinion comes from my discussions over the years with breeders worldwide. Dave Barker was, at one stage, line-breeding the larger pythons (reticulated particularly) for improved temperament - because ill tempered giant pythons are very dangerous animals indeed. He felt that calm adults largely produced calm babies.

I don't see anything challenging in what Simon Stone has said, and at the end of the day he was only expressing an opinion. Definitely not deserving of the extremely aggressive bollocking he has received here... I'm sure the Stones have better things to do than try and undermine other businesses.

I have purchased superb animals from the Stones in the past, and I'm sure if Dave had species I was interested in I would buy from him as well (I'm not into Antaresia or Aspidites). My choice - yours as well...

Jamie.


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## Slateman (Apr 11, 2008)

It’s so dumb. There must 40 tonnes of documents written about the increase in productivity of captive bred animals in the first 1 to 2 generations (mammals, fish, birds, etc). There is not an experienced herp in Australia that does not know the enormous improvement in performance of captive bred animals over wild caught. It’s what changed the hobby in the mid-nineties and made it what it is today.
But again if some people like to think otherwise, they have all the right to do this.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 11, 2008)

Congratulations Slateman your posts seemed have improved overnight. Have you been secretly taking English classes at night school?
I have a question for you though old mate. If friends of mine who have perhaps breed more specimens of wild caught pythons than most in this entire country just happen to not observe any differences worthy of note from 1st to 2nd generation, does this make them inexperienced? Using your previous statement as logic would this be your opinion?


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## Slateman (Apr 12, 2008)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Congratulations Slateman your posts seemed have improved overnight. Have you been secretly taking English classes at night school?
> I have a question for you though old mate. If friends of mine who have perhaps breed more specimens of wild caught pythons than most in this entire country just happen to not observe any differences worthy of note from 1st to 2nd generation, does this make them inexperienced? Using your previous statement as logic would this be your opinion?



Not interested to argue with you really. I expressed my opinion, nothing wrong with that. 
Have a fun.

By the way.
Your attack on my English is totally uncalled for. Some times if post is important to me, I do get help.

I am not making fun of people who don't speak more than one language. Why do you have to make such a insensitive comment?
I speak 7 different languages. English is one I learned later in my life and apology to Pilbara Python for not using my English up to his standard some time.

I will take you on in Czech, German, Russian, Polish, Slovak, Yugoslavian any time.

I will not reply to any of your posts anymore.

I know that you will come with some nice excuse and will say that you did not ment to insult me.
But you did. 
I am not interested to have anything to do with you in the future. Don't bother to sent me any personall messages and e-mails. I have no time for you.
Definately not Old mate of yours also. Newer been.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 12, 2008)

Slateman
You need to recognize the difference between a question and an argument.
You chose to put your input into this thread therefore a question back to you was an obvious possibility. 

As you have taken my comment on your English so personally and have felt insulted then I obviously need to apologize (even if this may mean nothing to you) So, I am sorry if I offended you.
There is nothing wrong with getting help with a post; it just was so plainly obvious it gave me a chuckle. I am glad though that you at least have made it clear what you think of me, see, honesty I actually do support.


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