# Why do so many people have a hatred towards JAGS???



## rockett85 (Dec 15, 2011)

I personally love the jag line i know it comes with its issues but they are an amazing snake and can produce the most beautiful looking young. It was a natural mutation with the coastal that has now taken off so why do so many people disagree with it???????? (except for the cross breeding of carpets of course). Some people just have a real hatred for them!!


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## hrafna (Dec 15, 2011)

A. they started here in oz from smuggled animals.
B. they have the messed up neuro issue.
C. they have so easily caused confusion within the hobby. ie, jag/rpm


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## longqi (Dec 15, 2011)

If humans have a faulty gene they are advised never to have kids
We accept that
But would you happily breed a snake, knowing it will definitely have faulty genes and very possibly debilitating neurological problems?


While it is good to see colour variations
Somewhere there has to be a line drawn


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## vampstorso (Dec 15, 2011)

longqi said:


> If humans have a faulty gene they are advised never to have kids
> We accept that
> But would you happily breed a snake, knowing it will definitely have faulty genes and very possibly debilitating neurological problems?
> 
> ...




I wrote this same point...then decided it wasn't going to be worth the backlash despite the truth! so good on you Longqi!


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## rockett85 (Dec 15, 2011)

longqi said:


> If humans have a faulty gene they are advised never to have kids
> We accept that
> But would you happily breed a snake, knowing it will definitely have faulty genes and very possibly debilitating neurological problems?
> 
> ...



i do understand what everyone means and at first was hesitant to get a jag but now i have 1 and another on the way. My current male shows no signs of neuro but i do know it may show up later on and surprise me but for now he is a yearling and looking amazing and cant wait to see what happens with the jag line in the future!


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## Justdragons (Dec 15, 2011)

in regards to point a and point b although i agree are personal opinion but point b is a very serious issue and should NOT be ignored!


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 15, 2011)

* closes the door and walks out quietly for the incoming onslaught*


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## rockett85 (Dec 15, 2011)

I knew this was controversial but was keen to see everyone's opinion on the matter. They are a touchy subject and i already know of the main reasons eg: come from smuggled animal, the neuro issue and the jag or rpm issue but i was just curious as to what other thoughts people had.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 15, 2011)

rockett85 said:


> I knew this was controversial but was keen to see everyone's opinion on the matter. They are a touchy subject and i already know of the main reasons eg: come from smuggled animal, the neuro issue and the jag or rpm issue but i was just curious as to what other thoughts people had.



I think you just pointed to the exact reasons they are hated..... When u breed an animal KNOWING it is going to have neurological issues for example is very wrong


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> I think you just pointed to the exact reasons they are hated..... When u breed an animal KNOWING it is going to have neurological issues for example is very wrong


Wish I could like that some more....but they are so pretty...aah


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## Herpaderpa (Dec 15, 2011)

Why ask if you already knew? 

You already knew... you clearly just wanted to vent some steam on the issue. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally wouldn't touch a jag with a ten foot pole... why would I when there are pure australian snakes with better patterns and zero neuro issues?

Owning a jag now, you should be prepared to take peoples opinions and accept them. If you do a search you will find MANY heated debates on the issue already. Whats more... with recent new pure morphs and a lot of peoples hard work selectively breeding beautiful reduced pattern australian animals... the jag price will go through the floor. Perhaps that is really what you are annoyed about?


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## reptilian1924 (Dec 15, 2011)

longqi said:


> If humans have a faulty gene they are advised never to have kids
> We accept that
> But would you happily breed a snake, knowing it will definitely have faulty genes and very possibly debilitating neurological problems?
> 
> ...



longqi,l agree 100% with what you have said here in your post and could not have said it better myself good on you.

l myself think all forms of Reptile's should be left as they are out in the wild pure, us humans only create or design Reptile's based on pattern and colours, cause we want to get as much money as we can all because of human greed.

Some of us just don't care one bit about the future of Animals on this planet, cause those who try and design new colours and patterns in Reptile's, know they wont be around for ever where if they did care they wouldn't do it would they each and everyone to their own opinion.

l would not pay 1 cent or would l let any Jag Carpet or any other cross-breed Python's near my home.


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## Leeloofluff (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't Think its worth having to kill half te clutch for the sake of a pretty snake. Talkto someone who has seen the neuro affects, it's messed up


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## Jeffa (Dec 15, 2011)

When people care more about money and pretty colours, more than the potential issues contributed for an animals wellbeing due to poor breeding and husbandry issues. This where this hobby is going backward.
How can someone honestly believe that they are improving and moving this hobby forward when you know you are encouraging and spreading a faulty gene in our already beautiful snakes? You cannot, but greed is blind. 

There I said it.


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## melissagalea2 (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> When people care more about money and pretty colours, more than the potential issues contributed for an animals wellbeing due to poor breeding and husbandry issues. This where this hobby is going backward.
> How can someone honestly believe that they are improving and moving this hobby forward when you know you are encouraging and spreading a faulty gene in our already beautiful snakes? You cannot, but greed is blind.
> 
> There I said it.



THANKYOU
very well said...couldnt agree with you more. 
cheers
mel


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## sarah1234 (Dec 15, 2011)

Woah this is almost as bad as the onslaught of mentioning hybrids on a fish forum! Just say the word, run away and come back to 4 pages of massacre by the next morning. haha.


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## Inkage (Dec 15, 2011)

I have a heavily nuero jag... It functions..Just in a ''special'' way.
Would i bother breeding with it?..No.. I don't think the result is worth the drama...


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## Darlyn (Dec 15, 2011)

rockett85 said:


> I personally love the jag line i know it comes with its issues but they are an amazing snake and can produce the most beautiful looking young. It was a natural mutation with the coastal that has now taken off so why do so many people disagree with it???????? (except for the cross breeding of carpets of course). Some people just have a real hatred for them!!


So what is "amazing" about them? If it's only their looks that is "amazing" does that outweigh the fact they can't hold their head up?
I don't understand you asking why people disagree, you already know. What's your point?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 15, 2011)

Let’s see.

Some negatives.
1. Supporting Jags ultimately supports smuggling, which encourages cruelty to animals, and is major biosecurity risk not just to our captive animals but also to our wild fauna which would have a limited resistance to exotic pathogens.

2. Every Jag carries the potential for nasty neuro symptoms, which must surely affect its quality of life.

3. Produces large amounts of unwanted Jag sibs which are either euthanized or sold off which muddies the waters of pure lines.

And some positives.

1. Some are pretty

2. It will make a lot of money for a select few breeders.


It is good to see where everyone's priorities lie.......


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## ricky_91 (Dec 15, 2011)

i agree no animal should just be bred for its colours knowing some can die etc i know some one that had one and at 3 years old just died for a unknown reason I've hated it since the day i found out exactly what it was


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## Darlyn (Dec 15, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> May I remind everyone that a certain member on here who has a lot of power on this site owns Jags...
> My guess is it wont be long until this is tucked away into the cupboard of other closed Jag debates.



Don't know who you mean but it's totally irrelevant. The OP asked a question he is getting his answers.


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## snakeluvver (Dec 15, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Don't know who you mean but it's totally irrelevant. The OP asked a question he is getting his answers.


Yes but now itll turn into a Jag debate.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 15, 2011)

IMO, the main reason is that some "snake people" think that by keeping lines pure, that it in some way instills them with nobility, or somehow makes them special. I think the main reason some folks hate them SOOO much, is that their illegally poached (or directly decended from), locality specific animals are no longer the centre of attention.


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## GellyAmbert (Dec 15, 2011)

Fishing rod... check
Fishing line... check
Hooks and sinkers... check
The word JAG for bait... check

sweet.. lets go fishing.....


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## Darlyn (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> IMO, the main reason is that some "snake people" think that by keeping lines pure, that it in some way instills them with nobility, or somehow makes them special. I think the main reason some folks hate them SOOO much, is that their illegally poached (or directly decended from), locality specific animals are no longer the centre of attention.



You may be correct, but I'm not keen on ppl breeding any animal that has an obvious disorder, not matter how good looking they are.

Then again I'm not a vigilante so ppl do what they want to, we're all different.


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## vampstorso (Dec 15, 2011)

there's also the simple fact that...
people don't have to like them.

I don't see why that's such a big problem for others.
I admit the constant need to say you do or don't like them, however, is the annoying thing.


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## Smithers (Dec 15, 2011)

I likem  That's all folks.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 15, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> You may be correct, but I'm not keen on ppl breeding any animal that has an obvious disorder, not matter how good looking they are.
> 
> Then again I'm not a vigilante so ppl do what they want to, we're all different.



Very well said Darlyn (it feels a bit forward of me to call you that. ) I recently had a friend round, one of the more vigorous and anti-jag people and pro-pure you'll ever meet, his argument was as yours is, a problem with this disorder. Like anything though, it is not black and white, no matter how hard people argue to the contrary. Do I believe jags with severe neuro should be bred from, no. As a matter of degrees though, as all jags have the potential to display symptoms, it is the minority that show severe syptoms, and I have yet to see conclusive evidence (or any for that matter) that jags with minor to no symptoms have any reduction in quality of life whatsoever. My first hand personal (albeit limited) experience would indicate that they do not, or are not suffering. I am not so proud though, to be incapable of admitting error should someone prove me conclusively wrong. 



CoolDenturesBro said:


> there's also the simple fact that...
> people don't have to like them.
> 
> I don't see why that's such a big problem for others.
> I admit the constant need to say you do or don't like them, however, is the annoying thing.



Amen CDB!


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## Darlyn (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake Whisperer why is it forward to call me by my name?


Ha ha CDB that quote would sit nicely in the anti gay american thread



CoolDenturesBro said:


> there's also the simple fact that...
> people don't have to like them.
> 
> I don't see why that's such a big problem for others.
> I admit the constant need to say you do or don't like them, however, is the annoying thing.


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## maddog-1979 (Dec 15, 2011)

hands up if you think jags are just ugly......even rpm's or rp's or whatever you want to call em.....i just dont like the look of them. JMO


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## Pilchy (Dec 15, 2011)

Pure native snakes or gtfo


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## cwebb (Dec 16, 2011)

Aahhaha dammit i thought the thread title was going to be "why is there so much hatred towards red heads"

When you know the answer get back to me haha


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## Morelia4life (Dec 16, 2011)

I had a Jag once for about 2 months until one day it started doing "back*****" with his head and he couldn't focus and it just looked terrible and I couldn't stand to look at him without feeling bad. Imo, Jags can be nice looking snakes but I will never get another one because I can't stand to watch them go through their issues. Why breed jags when you know how they will be affected? 

Do people really care more about the money than the quality of their animals? It is a sad thing to think about but it seems like it is getting more and more common every day.


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## Darlyn (Dec 16, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> I had a Jag once for about 2 months until one day it started doing "back*****" with his head and he couldn't focus and it just looked terrible and I couldn't stand to look at him without feeling bad. Imo, Jags can be nice looking snakes but I will never get another one because I can't stand to watch them go through their issues. Why breed jags when you know how they will be affected?
> 
> Do people really care more about the money than the quality of their animals? It is a sad thing to think about but it seems like it is getting more and more common every day.



Wow, that's sad. Didn't you know what could happen?


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

There will always be a market for something different and we would be foolish to think that other snakes wont be bred for colour
These will be designer snakes if I can use that term
It appears that some top designer morelia will be on the market fairly soon
If I was looking at Jags I would hold off
For if these ones are potentially as good as they could be
Jags will quickly be forgotten


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## Morelia4life (Dec 16, 2011)

I did know what could happen but when I bought it, I said "it won't happen to me, it won't happen to my snake" but it did. I bought it from a well known breeder over here and I just thought it wouldn't happen to me. Simple as that. Since than, I have done so much research on them and I really do think that every Jag has the neuro issue gene in them and that they only display it during times of stress. Once they are stressed enough, it is only then that they start acting up. That is what I think.


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## PythonLegs (Dec 16, 2011)

Snake lovers and money/prestige seeking grubs are two different things. Not pointing any fingers, this time.:twisted:


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## StimiLove (Dec 16, 2011)

OMG! I just you-tubed JAG snakes and it has broke my heart! 
I saw a snake snap for a mouse and it snapped its own body and started coiling around itself while the mouse remianed untouched next to him. For ages he still held his own body in his mouth.
now i know why people hate the creation of these poor snakes


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## pythrulz (Dec 16, 2011)

This is a debate that wont go away yes they might be pretty but why breed or buy a snake who has faulty genes that cant be bred out and there are people that specifcly breed jags anyway this topic has been done so many times


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## reptilian1924 (Dec 16, 2011)

Do people really care more about the money than the quality of their animals? It is a sad thing to think about but it seems like it is getting more and more common every day.[/QUOTE]

lMO yes some people do really care more about money than the quality of their Animals, like you say it is a sad thing to think about, l myself couldn't agree more with what you have said here in your post,( Morelia4life ) l'm with you well said.


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## Dippy (Dec 16, 2011)

Jags may be absolutely stunning to look at but the neuro issues are something else, they are bred for one very simple reason... Money. As stated by Jeffa, this morph is a backward slide in an already amazingly beautiful herp. Personally I am much more excited about the Albino genes than something like this.


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## graffix (Dec 16, 2011)

This may be a little bit sideways from this actual debate, but has anyone actually done any research on this disorder (for want of a better term) ? 
Is this problem coming from a dominant gene or is it stemming from a recessive gene where these animals are just to closely related ?
I would love to hear from anyone that has truly worked with these animals on a scientific level.
Love them or hate them, personally I don't give a rats ...... Obviously there is a problem with them, but can it really be corrected ?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 16, 2011)

graffix said:


> This may be a little bit sideways from this actual debate, but has anyone actually done any research on this disorder (for want of a better term) ?
> Is this problem coming from a dominant gene or is it stemming from a recessive gene where these animals are just to closely related ?
> I would love to hear from anyone that has truly worked with these animals on a scientific level.
> Love them or hate them, personally I don't give a rats ...... Obviously there is a problem with them, but can it really be corrected ?



It is coming directly from the JAG gene, melanin which is affected by the JAG gene is involved in neural development. So no it can't be corrected, the only hope would be to breed snakes more resistant to the triggers (which seems to be stress), but the potential will always be there.

On a sidenote JAGS being a codominant trait have been crossed over everything and anything possible they are most certainly not "too closely related".......


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

All Jags have the 'ability' to develop neuro issues, not all do by any means. I know lots of people overseas with very large collections and the number of Jags that show worrying symptoms are small. If people hate them they hate them, it's no big deal. I know of people who dislike them because they aren't truly Aussie snakes, amazing but true.


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## saximus (Dec 16, 2011)

Haha we are even racist to our animals now


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

Yeah, pretty sad really LOL. 



saximus said:


> Haha we are even racist to our animals now


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

boa said:


> All Jags have the 'ability' to develop neuro issues, not all do by any means. I know lots of people overseas with very large collections and the number of Jags that show worrying symptoms are small. If people hate them they hate them, it's no big deal. I know of people who dislike them because they aren't truly Aussie snakes, amazing but true.



Thats really interesting
Just about every breeder and Jag owner I have ever met say that the majority of their Jags most definitely show symptoms of neuro at varying times
But I suppose there may be a difference between 'worrying symptoms' and just ordinary symptoms??


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

Absolutely, a very well known Jag breeding friend openly says that every Jag will display something at some stage but very few show anything remotely worrying. 



longqi said:


> Thats really interesting
> Just about every breeder and Jag owner I have ever met say that the majority of their Jags most definitely show symptoms of neuro at varying times
> But I suppose there may be a difference between 'worrying symptoms' and just ordinary symptoms??


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## jack (Dec 16, 2011)

as i have said previously, locality purists should encourage jags in private collections because when they escape their defective nature will prevent them contributing to the wild _Morelia spilota_ gene pool


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## RHCP1 (Dec 16, 2011)

jack said:


> as i have said previously, locality purists should encourage jags in private collections because when they escape their defective nature will prevent them contributing to the wild _Morelia spilota_ gene pool



You're kidding, right. Or maybe you saw it on Utube.....I would love to see the evidence to back up your claim


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## hrafna (Dec 16, 2011)

i don't like the look of jags, plus everything i said before in my first post. if you like them then good for you. to each their own, my only real concern is that breeders be honest with what they sell off, be it jag or hybrid or whatever. there seems to be such a growing desire for something new and different within the hobby i can see alot of dodgey dealings being done in the future. and for those not doing anything dodgey but have a genuine pure new morph, they will always get viewed with skeptism unless people call it what it is.


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## JS974 (Dec 16, 2011)

My only issue is given they've been smuggled into the country at some point and they've possibly brought in new viruses / disease (if it happened legally and bred in quarantine, with only the young entering the country, this would have been perforable) , but given all the other stuff that turns up in the country that shouldn't be here that isn't such an issue I guess.


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## Chris1 (Dec 16, 2011)

i dont hate jags, they look amazing,....and aside from the health issues my problem is that the sibs are not identifiable and being sold to people who will breed them and sell them on as what they appear to be,...so theres no longer a guarantee that what im purchasing is actually what i want.

that being said, im also against euthenaising healthy animals while keeping the good looking ones with inbuilt problems,..so im against culling of sibs too,...

ahh, it doesnt even make sense in my head what im trying to say,...lol,...

which is why im buying my last snake this year to ensure i dont end up with tainted blood in my collection......at least i know what i have, and the next one, (which has already hatched from jag free parents) are exactly what im after,.....


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## Southside Morelia (Dec 16, 2011)

cwebb said:


> Aahhaha dammit i thought the thread title was going to be "why is there so much hatred towards red heads"
> 
> When you know the answer get back to me haha


Love it!! LMAO

Not all Jags have neuro issues...


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## Chris1 (Dec 16, 2011)

cwebb said:


> Aahhaha dammit i thought the thread title was going to be "why is there so much hatred towards red heads"
> 
> When you know the answer get back to me haha



well, ya know the saying 'rusty roof, dodgy garage?'


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## s0041464 (Dec 16, 2011)

sorry to digress but,

so many jaded people on this forum. mind you they ALWAYS have their 2c to put in.

one of you please explain how your doing the country a favour by only pure-breeding your captive snakes?

where do you think these captive bred snakes came from? a test tube?


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## Chris1 (Dec 16, 2011)

s0041464 said:


> s
> 
> mind you they ALWAYS have their 2c to put in.



have u read the title to the thread?


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## Wally (Dec 16, 2011)

s0041464 said:


> so many jaded people on this forum. mind you they ALWAYS have their 2c to put in.



And that brings the tally to $12.68


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## Jeffa (Dec 16, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> And that brings the tally to $12.68


And worth every cent.


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## rockett85 (Dec 16, 2011)

Herpaderpa said:


> Why ask if you already knew?
> 
> You already knew... you clearly just wanted to vent some steam on the issue.
> 
> ...



i asked the question because i was interested to see what the thoughts were of the greater reptile community, although i did know the main reasons i was interested to see if there were more reasons that i did not know about.
As for being annoyed i am not at all i have nothing to be annoyed about i am just interested in seeing what other people have to say and what there opinions are.
Each person is entitled to their own opinion and no matter what you have to respect it, I respect everyone's opinion on this subject and it certainly does give you something to think about that's for sure.
I know a lot of people get angry with the question i posted but that was not my intention i was just curious to see what the greater community's opinion on the matter was.


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## Jeffa (Dec 16, 2011)

rockett85 said:


> i asked the question because i was interested to see what the thoughts were of the greater reptile community, although i did know the main reasons i was interested to see if there were more reasons that i did not know about.
> As for being annoyed i am not at all i have nothing to be annoyed about i am just interested in seeing what other people have to say and what there opinions are.
> Each person is entitled to their own opinion and no matter what you have to respect it, I respect everyone's opinion on this subject and it certainly does give you something to think about that's for sure.
> I know a lot of people get angry with the question i posted but that was not my intention i was just curious to see what the greater community's opinion on the matter was.


Would be good to get a vote/ballot (whatever you want to call it) on the issue


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## cement (Dec 16, 2011)

Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.

It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,

Nor is it the jag snakes fault that certain people will be enticed into breeding them, and in doing so ultimately spread mistrust and confusion throughout the hobby where sales of snakes are concerned.

It's not it's fault, that one male jag can cover multiple females in a year producing large numbers of offspring causing a large increase of these snakes into being.

It's not the jag snakes fault that it suffers from a neurological disease that can cause shortened lifespan, and involuntary muscle spasm and twitching, that can have a distressing effect on certain people when they watch them go through these motions.

It's also not the jag snakes fault that 50% of their offspring will have (in time) virtually no place in the hobby and are in fact culled at birth by most breeders.

Call me a purist (its cool, I've heard it all before and is water off my back), but in my opinion it is not the snake that should be hated.
The only people who will do any good, monetary wise, out of jags are the very first to get involved in the breeding of them. They know they have a small window of a few years to clean up before the tsunami expends its energy. The wreckage will take longer to mend.


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## Jeffa (Dec 16, 2011)

cement said:


> Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.
> 
> It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,
> 
> ...




And this my friends is what passion is all about.
Well done cement and I applaude.
Anyone who does not see reason with this logic are not for the wellbeing of animals and only money concerned.


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 16, 2011)

cement said:


> Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.
> 
> It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,
> 
> ...


Quality nutshell post!!!!! 

Graham, that is the Jag debate for me, in one well constructed post...


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 16, 2011)

s0041464 said:


> sorry to digress but,
> 
> so many jaded people on this forum. mind you they ALWAYS have their 2c to put in.
> 
> ...


I don't know about doing the country proud but I would imagine many would believe that it is doing the hobby proud.


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## hrafna (Dec 16, 2011)

having pure lines is a good thing, just look at the usa, people are drooling over the animals we keep. they made the mistake to mix it all up! there is plenty of room for both in the hobby.


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

s0041464 said:


> sorry to digress but,
> 
> so many jaded people on this forum. mind you they ALWAYS have their 2c to put in.
> 
> ...



This whole argument/discussion has very little to do with "Pure Lines"
Most people who dislike Jags do so because they are being bred with an incurable genetic problem
FULL STOP

Scenario
Best Jungle/BHP/Woma/Olive breeder on Earth advertises his new line of pure Jungles etc
Great little jungles etc but have incurable neuro
Exactly how many do you think he would sell??
How many would you buy??

Yet people queue up to buy Jags?
Those same buyers wouldnt touch another snake that had neuro with a 10ft barge pole
But because Jags are 'Pretty' they will support Jags while at the same time they would blast anyone trying to sell or breed any other species with incurable neuro

The double standard is pretty sad when you think about it logically


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## RHCP1 (Dec 17, 2011)

I would have thought that this subject has been done to death over the past 18 months or so. The same arguments are put up by the same people every time.

The same 2 basic issues are raised every time, 1/ smuggling and the risk of introduced diseases and 2/ the neuro issue

Yes, this is a risk of disease being introduced with smuggled animals but I can't think of a disease carried by a python that can kill people.
It would be a quiet week or 2 in Sydney when I don't hear of things like, vipers, rattlers, corba, black mamba ect being offered around.
I shudder to think what would happen if one of these escaped and hit a child down the street.

I guess the same or similar snakes are on offer in other cities and yet where is the outcry.

The neuro issue, yes the condition does exist. One only has to look at the hundreds of repeated posts to see that. It would seem that it is part of the jag gene but DOES NOT affect all jags.

A friend has several of these jags and there is no doubt that neuro problem do exist in SOME lines.

He has some that at 4 y.o. are just perfect, zero signs no matter how stressed out they get. There is another one that when stressed does show significant signs.

While it may not look all that nice for some to see a snake at times arching backwards it would seem that the snake is NOT IN ANY WAY IN DISTRESS.
That statement I base on the fact that if a snake was in distress I would not expect it to a ravenous feeder nor be wanting to mate with whatever came its way. 

I am sure glad that my Labrador is a 110% Labrador, (I have checked back 50 generations), and not maybe a Labradoodal or similar. Now that I know she is 100% pure Lab I can still take her walking without fear of being abused for having a cross-breed.


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## Southside Morelia (Dec 17, 2011)

cement said:


> Hate is pretty strong word. Especially when talking about an innocent animal that was purposely bred by a person.
> 
> It's not the jag snakes fault that a person would knowingly smuggle it into the country, putting the whole countries collective collections, both wild and captive at risk, from also smuggling in a possible disease,
> 
> ...



Hello mate,
Great post, we all have our opinions and that's awesome and great for the hobby with well thought out and intelligent input like this! Whichever side of the fence you stand, there are arguments for both...as a cop-out, I am in middle, but lean to the pure because I keep pure lines and dont want them to be muddied, but als love the look of the jags.
I have 2 x jags only, because they are stunning animals and a great display, all the rest of my vast collection are PURE! You are 100% in what you say re the payout, it all comes down to the breeder/sellers honesty when selling off their projects at a later date. I recall this subject was visited many a year ago and my thread was deleted...deja vu for me and many on here. It is true, staying pure is probably the best thing as we dont want to travel the same path as the USA/Europe, but in saying that, we have the pure animals gene pool at our doorstep and the educated herper can tell the difference do you think?
Jags are here, we just need to manage that now and be different to other Countries and because we have both in the hobby now, we NEED to be able to distinguish between the 2 for the sake of the hobby and to make Australian Hepers different from the rest of the world and to manage this correctly, honestly for the benefit of both sides of the debate! JMO...


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## MrSpike (Dec 17, 2011)

I'd be curious to see how many of the people that have the, 'I won't support keeping/breeding snakes that are bred just for looks and inferior health' point of view... have pure bred, or even mutt dogs. Exactly the same scenario.

Facts:
1. No matter how much you hope, pray and wish - your precious 'pure' pets will never EVER contibute to conservation so there is no reason for designer snakes to be shunned.
2. Why would people go and poach 'ugly' snakes from bush surrounding urban area's when in the future you will have the possibility to buy albino jags, snows, axanthic jags, jagpondros, super hypo jags, orange pepper jags etc etc - and thats just until people come out into the open about Zebra's and Granites... then we have a whole new kettle of fish there! If anything these designer snakes are better for conservation, in regards to poaching! 
3. No matter how much you kick, scream, whinge about the 'neuro' issues, all the nay sayers will ever have ANY idea about how little of a problem this is with 90% of jags because they do not own them, and apparently never will. And lets face it, your snakes spend a good majority if their time curled up in a hide not moving anyway.. therefor not displaying any neuro issues..

Oh and on a side note - is there also no place for jag sibs from Coastal jag/ Coastal jag pairings?

My 2c.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 17, 2011)

The ownership of a mutt dog analogy is poor simply because it misses a key point. Most people who appreciate pure lines do so because they are proud of Australian native wildlife and enjoy keeping them I suppose in a nostalgic way. If we had say native dogs running around in the bush I am sure most people would desire keeping them over the so called mongrels.


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## zack13 (Dec 17, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> The ownership of a mutt dog analogy is poor simply because it misses a key point. Most people who appreciate pure lines do so because they are proud of Australian native wildlife and enjoy keeping them I suppose in a nostalgic way. If we had say native dogs running around in the bush I am sure most people would desire keeping them over the so called mongrels.



Exactly plus the domestic dogs are all the same sub-species. With carpet pythons they are different sub-species so there is that as well.


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 17, 2011)

MrSpike said:


> I'd be curious to see how many of the people that have the, 'I won't support keeping/breeding snakes that are bred just for looks and inferior health' point of view... have pure bred, or even mutt dogs. Exactly the same scenario.
> 
> Facts:
> 1. No matter how much you hope, pray and wish - your precious 'pure' pets will never EVER contibute to conservation so there is no reason for designer snakes to be shunned.
> ...


Should have kept your 2c in your pocket, as with all Jag lovers, point missed!


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## MrSpike (Dec 17, 2011)

I think you are missing my point. A high percent of dogs breeds are bred to be an inferior quality for the show ring. Only dogs bred for an athletic ability and performance and not a look can be considered 'sound in health'. Yet people spend hundreds of thousands on these dogs yearly - how is that scenario any different to the one of jags? And on that subject - the issue of these dogs is probably a lot worse. But thats a whole other debate.

I'm all for people keeping dingo's (closest thing we have to a 'native' dog) - but most people can't keep control of their mums poodle cross, let a lone a dog that has a very high drive..

I think the key thing a lot of people are missing on the whole jag/hybrid debate is that - there still are PURE coastal jags. You DO NOT have to cross these with other subspecies if you do not wish.


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## Wally (Dec 17, 2011)

It's purely the neuro issues for me, nothing else.


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## Grogshla (Dec 17, 2011)

I think they are beautiful but I feel sad to think that they could be struggling with basic functions just because people breed them for looks.


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## Darlyn (Dec 17, 2011)

Hey MrSpike,
What does an ugly snake look like? Who quantifies what an ugly snake is?
Designer snakes hinder poaching?
My spastic snake hides so there is no issue?

Interesting???!!


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## junglepython2 (Dec 17, 2011)

The chances of there being any legit pure coastal jags in Aus are slim to none!


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## MrSpike (Dec 17, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Should have kept your 2c in your pocket, as with all Jag lovers, point missed!



Well what is your point? Put it out there plain and simple. Jags are here to stay, like it or not. They are likely to be one of the best, and worst things for this hobby. It's all in how you take it, and how those producing them manage their stock and records. Any self respecting herper should carry as many records as possible for their individual snakes heritage, and a lot of people carry self recorded pedigrees on their animals. 

If YOU keep records on YOUR animals and have some self control on buying an animal that may not be 'pure' then how will this effect you and your collection? And if you do decide to buy said animal - then don't breed it!

Some jags can have health issues - so can a lot of other animals in the animal industry, why aren't any of you kicking a stink about them?


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## Firedrake (Dec 18, 2011)

Seeing as Jags are bred solely for being pretty, with the new very pretty pure reduced pattern morphs coming out with no neuro issues, won't that significantly reduce the need for Jags anyway? So you can have a perfectly functioning snake that is also gorgeous to look at and no chance of ever having neuro problems...why would you still buy a Jag? I will admit I would rather have the guarantee of not having any issues, I mean most people don't buy *anything* knowing full well there's a decent chance it may break later, but how likely is it that the Jags will disappear when the new morphs become readily available? I can bet the price of a new pure RPM will exceed the price of a Jag any day, will Jag breeders move on? Just curious as it seems alot of people are strung up on the neuro issues, would they buy it if it was guaranteed no problems? 
Also if we're getting pure morphs that have the same look as Jags what's to say its not another copy of the same genetics and breeding them together too closely will produce the same issues? How did the 'Jag gene' pop up in the first place? Not saying it is I'm just curious as to how/if two completely separate gene combinations could possibly produce such similarities in appearance.

Sorry if I'm hijacking, just alot to be answered in my brain here


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## junglepython2 (Dec 18, 2011)

Firedrake said:


> I can bet the price of a new pure RPM will exceed the price of a Jag any day, will Jag breeders move on?



You would lose your money as JAGs and RPMs are one and the same.


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## zack13 (Dec 18, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> You would lose your money as JAGs and RPMs are one and the same.


Long before Jags were here people used the term RPM to describe animals with reduced patterns.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 18, 2011)

zack13 said:


> Long before Jags were here people used the term RPM to describe animals with reduced patterns.



They used RP not RPM. The RPM term was created by Stone.


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## Firedrake (Dec 18, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> They used RP not RPM. The RPM term was created by Stone.



Ok well I didn't know that but you know what I mean


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## Dmnted (Dec 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> If humans have a faulty gene they are advised never to have kids
> We accept that
> But would you happily breed a snake, knowing it will definitely have faulty genes and very possibly debilitating neurological problems?
> 
> ...



It is obvious we have a number of opinions on this debate whether it's for, against or on the fence for jags.
It seems to me the main debate is about the looks vs the neuro issues.
I am not familiar with the jag gene but can the neuro issues be bred out by any chance?


I'm sorry longqi but your comparison of snake breeding to the human race I feel are a little inappropriate and as for accepted ? I don’t agree!
My mother has a "faulty gene" called retinitis pigmentosa which has the potential for her offspring to go blind.
Luckily for me I carry the gene but will not be affected by it.
One of my good friends parents both have down syndrome, he is a completely normal man and a successful chef working one of Australia’s most respected restaurants currently holding 3 hats. Their decision to have a child may not sit well with some people but the result speaks for itself.
Please don’t get me wrong and I totally agree with not breeding a snake which will definitely suffer neuro issues. Anyone with a heart should not want to see a pet suffering purely for their looks or for money!
If there are many jags with little neuro issues and there is a possibility of breeding it out then, I’m all for continuing the line If they all have neuro and all pets in the future will suffer from it, I’d prefer no more pets should be subjected to torment for looks or money !


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 18, 2011)

MrSpike said:


> Well what is your point? Put it out there plain and simple. Jags are here to stay, like it or not. They are likely to be one of the best, and worst things for this hobby. It's all in how you take it, and how those producing them manage their stock and records. Any self respecting herper should carry as many records as possible for their individual snakes heritage, and a lot of people carry self recorded pedigrees on their animals.
> 
> If YOU keep records on YOUR animals and have some self control on buying an animal that may not be 'pure' then how will this effect you and your collection? And if you do decide to buy said animal - then don't breed it!
> 
> Some jags can have health issues - so can a lot of other animals in the animal industry, why aren't any of you kicking a stink about them?


This is a reptile discussion, so GSD hip displacement, is not likely to come up....as I have said a hundred times on a hundred threads on the subject, the greedy and the plastic herp lovers, will remain blind to what real rep lovers are saying....you cannot condone the unpardonable.


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

There is no real difference, it is possible to buy Jags and pure lines in the rest of the world, it isn't as if every line of morelia is 'infected' with the Jag gene. 



Southside Morelia said:


> Jags are here, we just need to manage that now and be different to other Countries and because we have both in the hobby now, we NEED to be able to distinguish between the 2 for the sake of the hobby and to make Australian Hepers different from the rest of the world and to manage this correctly, honestly for the benefit of both sides of the debate! JMO...


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## emmabee (Dec 18, 2011)

OMG are some of you people serious? had to laugh at the quote you wouldnt breed people with genetic problems????? hello....are you saying people with dwarfism and genetic blindness or even diabetics who are proneto it in their family shouldnt have children??? totally stupid comparison!

as for the Jag debate, i am really interested in just how many of the so called you tub experts have kept or even seen a Jag in real life? get off your high horses everyone and accept there are people who like and will keep them and others who wont.
who the hell are you to say these animals are not worth living? they are special aniamls and have their own traits, nuro is a problem but i have an animal that was going to be PTS due to its nuro and she is a fantastic animal and one of my best feeders. if the aussie breeders freeze the jag sibs and ones with bad nuro then shame on you as a nation and as a hobby there. it certainly isnt a problem here.
Jags arent the only breed or morph in the world to show nuro (funny how its the reduced patterns that show it the most, but thats another debate).


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 18, 2011)

Its the blind diabetic dwarves, who had the foresight to bring these abominations into gods world....damn you all


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## emmabee (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> There is no real difference, it is possible to buy Jags and pure lines in the rest of the world, it isn't as if every line of morelia is 'infected' with the Jag gene.



you know what mate, i would kill for some of the pure aussie breeds you have and for the ones we can get over here to be guarenteed pure (darwin albinos here just suddenly spring to mind!). although i like and keep Jags and crosses my first love is pure aussie pythons, i just see a place in the hobby for both as long as you know what they are. wan***s that sell them as one thing and thy know full well they are not are whats causing the problems.....no matter where in the world you are.



Cockney_Red said:


> Its the blind diabetic dwarves, who had the foresight to bring these abominations into gods world....damn you all



****** ME!! they are responsible for the Jags too!!!! burn them at the stake i say!


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## junglepython2 (Dec 18, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> This is a reptile discussion, so GSD hip displacement, is not likely to come up....as I have said a hundred times on a hundred threads on the subject, the greedy and the plastic herp lovers, will remain blind to what real rep lovers are saying....you cannot condone the unpardonable.



Hahaha plastic herp lovers, I like that!


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## Reptar859 (Dec 18, 2011)

I have to say this thread has been an eye opener for me. First of all to the people who think the question should not have been asked,I being new to the hobby had know idea that Jags existed and their was a neuro issue with them. So the question is doing its job by educating people to the possible problems that exist. Personally I would not deliberately buy or breed non pure lines of any animal especially if there is a known problem that cant be bred out. All i can hope is the people who do choose to keep these animals are able to cope with their needs and keep them a stress free as possible. Educating and helping people with their problems is the main reason forums like this exist and this thread has achieved both.


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## D3pro (Dec 19, 2011)

Lets face it....


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## Shotta (Dec 29, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Lets face it....



lol hah ahahah terrorist snakes


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 29, 2011)

That saying ( The red writing on that beautiful poster) has nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism  That just means that : We believe in One GOD, and that Mohommad is his Prophet. Its a prayer every muslim says before opening the holy book, and thats how every muslim in the whole universe begins his/her prayer. Just thought i would clear it for you guys


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## Wrightpython (Dec 29, 2011)

it seems to me that some organisation needs to bring in pedigree papers so that if you want animals with out jag in there breeding you can check family history same as dogs horse etc. the herp societies are so far behind every other pet animals and yet we are asking and paying ridiculous prices just because some one we dont know tells us its parental linage. I for one have never paid for a snake nor sold any snakes lizard or turtles, even if i breed the best looking pure diamond the world would ever know if it was excess to my needs it would be offered for free or swapped. They originally came from the bush so i dont think i should profit from it bit like rapeing of plants or bushrock then flogging it off. thats my 2 cents anyway


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## feathergrass (Dec 29, 2011)

ok read alll the pages and as someone who is looking at buying a snake at some stage and having her own collection of non breeding reps, i would not buy any cat dog bird mouse rat frog horse liazard or snake that had any neuro issues or any could be costly and avoidable health issues just beacause they are pretty..
i would much rather have a mutt or a dog or cat or a plain brown unpretty coloured snake if where it came from was loving and clean and had no hisory of mental or emotional or chemical or physical health issues.
i am not one of the people looking for a trophy pet one that looks good but that is all.
prolly put my 2c in the incoorect way


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## slide (Dec 29, 2011)

Yawn!
After reading one of these threads it seems you have read them all.
Im bored... Good night!


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## Nezikah (Dec 29, 2011)

Is there anyway to have a jag that doesn't have the problems?


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## Retic (Dec 29, 2011)

All Jags POTENTIALLY have issues ranging from a slight twitch to corkscrewing. Many never show any signs at all and many other display slight signs while a minority show what could be described as major symptoms.


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## Nezikah (Dec 29, 2011)

So like many other animals that carry gene's that can cause great pain or deformaties it is in fact cruel to breed them. 

A good example is L-2-hydroxyglutaric aciduria (L2HGA) in English Staffs or HERDA in horses.


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## Retic (Dec 29, 2011)

I have never seen any evidence to show they are in any pain, apart from some wobbling or twitching or in very extreme cases corkscrewing they act like any other snakes, they feed and breed as normal. There is also nothing to say it is cruel to breed them. Is it cruel for someone with Tourette's to have children ?



Nezikah said:


> So like many other animals that carry gene's that can cause great pain or deformaties it is in fact cruel to breed them.
> 
> A good example is L-2-hydroxyglutaric aciduria (L2HGA) in English Staffs or HERDA in horses.


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## Jeffa (Dec 29, 2011)

boa said:


> I have never seen any evidence to show they are in any pain, apart from some wobbling or twitching or in very extreme cases corkscrewing they act like any other snakes, they feed and breed as normal. There is also nothing to say it is cruel to breed them. Is it cruel for someone with Tourette's to have children ?


True, but do you have any evidence to show they are not in pain especially when they do the twist?
Hard to get information from an animal that does not talk, speak or have vocals.


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## Nezikah (Dec 29, 2011)

boa said:


> I have never seen any evidence to show they are in any pain, apart from some wobbling or twitching or in very extreme cases corkscrewing they act like any other snakes, they feed and breed as normal. There is also nothing to say it is cruel to breed them. Is it cruel for someone with Tourette's to have children ?



Tourette's is not a condition that causes pain. However a lot of neurological problems can cause pain like headaches etc. With the case as I have been reading - some die very young would this not be considered cruel? In any other animal it would be so why would it be not considered so for a reptile? If it was a person it would be seen as a medical condition and the person would be advised not to have children.


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## Retic (Dec 29, 2011)

We have differing opinions which is good, the benefit of living in a democracy.


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