# Using geckos as feeder food for Snakes!



## TURBO8 (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey all , 
Was browsing through herptrader and came across this add : 


*Rare Clone Sandstorm Gecko juveniles and adults. Parthenogenetically cloned females. *The easiest reptile to keep, the easiest to breed. All sandstorm varieties have brilliant personalities, they are bold and fearless, will readily approach you for food with no fear. Breed after one year, they make excellent research or just herping good fun. Adults are ready to breed. Have been used as food sources for difficult feeding juvenile snakes, Gtp's, Hoplocephalus etc. Great first reptile pet. Can supply background info on cloning evolution, history and current geographic expansion.Permitakl085049

I thought that it is illegal to use licenced reptiles as food and the humanity of it!


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## naledge (Nov 10, 2009)

Yeah I saw that too, I hate it.


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## Sturdy (Nov 10, 2009)

lol.. that a good idea imo.


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## MrBredli (Nov 10, 2009)

I'd prefer people breed their own feeder reptiles rather than poach them from the wild. There's also the added bonus of them being less likely to be carrying parasites which wild caught reptiles almost certainly would.


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## ParanoidPython (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi i saw this add too, in QLD you can use a certain few species of skinks and asian house geckos as a food source for your reptiles, however they must be euthanaised properly before using them, and not live animals of any sorts. We only know this because we have within the last month contacted the EPA regarding this matter because we have millions of asian house geckos around and some very hard to feed hatchlings.

I must add we caught a few skinks and asian house geckos to breed for this reason and not feed the ones caught from the wild however you can if you wanted to, contact Your states EPA or NPWS or whatever they can tell you what you can legally catch to feed or breed for food


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## Sdaji (Nov 10, 2009)

Wow, that's an expensive way to get your Chondros feeding. I am not entirely sure about this, but it has been speculated by at least some of the people who have done the most research into the Bynoe's/Clone Gecko/Heteronotia group that they are not as appealing as food as most other geckoes and skinks.

I suppose people will do whatever they want to do, legal or not.

The thing which grabbed me most about the ad was them saying they are the easiest reptile to breed. They're actually impossible to breed! You can only reproduce them by cloning, they can't reproduce sexually.

I'm not sure what they mean by 'all Sandstorm varieties', as 'Sandstorm' was a name given to one particular clone (all Sandstorms are clones of each other, so there aren't 'varieties' of them). Other clones have different names, I have several of them, including eggs from four different clones incubating at the moment  I'm guessing none of the hatchlings will end up being eaten by snakes :lol:


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## DarkSpartan (Nov 10, 2009)

TURBO8 said:


> "I thought that it is illegal to use licenced reptiles as food and the humanity of it! "



I understand your point but seriously... what about those that breed mice, rats, etc for consumption of their reptiles? Even those that get them frozen.... maybe that justifies feeding them mice.. 

But still.. everything is nature as long as it isnt done with cruelty and malice, and it is following things they would naturally eat or under necessity and need... then we cannot really justify that it is inhumane (unless the species they eat are protected by legislation or naturally need to be guarded by the herp community as a no no). 

just throwing in some words for thought.


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## TURBO8 (Nov 10, 2009)

DarkSpartan said:


> I understand your point but seriously... what about those that breed mice, rats, etc for consumption of their reptiles? Even those that get them frozen.... maybe that justifies feeding them mice..
> 
> But still.. everything is nature as long as it isnt done with cruelty and malice, and it is following things they would naturally eat or under necessity and need... then we cannot really justify that it is inhumane (unless the species they eat are protected by legislation or naturally need to be guarded by the herp community as a no no).
> 
> just throwing in some words for thought.


 Mice and Rats are RODENTS (pests) , where as reptiles are protected species!


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## cris (Nov 10, 2009)

I fail to see the logic in feeding animals that are worth $100 or more(i think?). I guess when they become far more common it would make a bit more sense. I thought it was funny that you could get differant varieties of the same clone, all with good tempetment. Is there any easy way of finding out which bynoes are real clones and which type they are? Does anyone have pics of the differant types?

Aside from that herps are great food for many herps, especially those that normally eat herps.


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## DarkSpartan (Nov 10, 2009)

TURBO8 said:


> Mice and Rats are RODENTS (pests) , where as reptiles are protected species!



They may be protected species but sometimes this needs to be reconsidered in certain circumstances... like the blue groper on the eastern coast becoming extremely common and wide spread.. so now regulations could be implemented in allowing them to be fished as well as controlling adequate population growth... 

If someone wants to breed reptiles for food and does it in the correct manner and is allowed by legislation or State regulations then I see no problem it would have on the wild population, and at most it would push a more varied food market for reptiles.


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## TURBO8 (Nov 10, 2009)

DarkSpartan said:


> They may be protected species but sometimes this needs to be reconsidered in certain circumstances... like the blue groper on the eastern coast becoming extremely common and wide spread.. so now regulations could be implemented in allowing them to be fished as well as controlling adequate population growth...
> 
> If someone wants to breed reptiles for food and does it in the correct manner and is allowed by legislation or State regulations then I see no problem it would have on the wild population, and at most it would push a more varied food market for reptiles.


 
IMO it is a waste of a perfectly good reptile and your money, i dont mind the feeding off of deformed hatchies that have been as they never had a fighting chance from the start and are killed in a humane manner , but i feel every other healthy reptile deserves the right to live , i know that reptiles naturally feed on other reptiles in the wild but i dont like the idea of this in captive conditions!


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## DarkSpartan (Nov 10, 2009)

TURBO8 said:


> IMO it is a waste of a perfectly good reptile and your money, i dont mind the feeding off of deformed hatchies that have been as they never had a fighting chance from the start and are killed in a humane manner , but i feel every other healthy reptile deserves the right to live , i know that reptiles naturally feed on other reptiles in the wild but i dont like the idea of this in captive conditions!



So mice, rats, chickens, etc deserve such treatment? how do reptiles and birds differ so much that one can be used as a food source and the other simply has a higher status...


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## TURBO8 (Nov 10, 2009)

your welcome to your own opinion even if i dont agree , im not on here to argue unlike some!


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## ryanharvey1993 (Nov 10, 2009)

would be much easier breeding leasures velvets or marbled geckos as food and much cheaper, plus they are probably better food then prickly little bynoes.....


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## DarkSpartan (Nov 10, 2009)

TURBO8 said:


> your welcome to your own opinion even if i dont agree , im not on here to argue unlike some!



haha im not arguing at all mate. Just healthy discussion and that is what this board is all about. I have no issues with your opinion, just welcome discussion on what people think.


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## TURBO8 (Nov 10, 2009)

DarkSpartan said:


> haha im not arguing at all mate. Just healthy discussion and that is what this board is all about. I have no issues with your opinion, just welcome discussion on what people think.


 
I do welcome disscusion on what people think otherwise i woulnd't have started the thread , i was never stating that you were argueing with me , just that i can start agueing all day about the matter like others do on this forum but really have better things to do with my time ! good day!


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## Sdaji (Nov 10, 2009)

cris said:


> I fail to see the logic in feeding animals that are worth $100 or more(i think?). I guess when they become far more common it would make a bit more sense. I thought it was funny that you could get differant varieties of the same clone, all with good tempetment. Is there any easy way of finding out which bynoes are real clones and which type they are? Does anyone have pics of the differant types?
> 
> Aside from that herps are great food for many herps, especially those that normally eat herps.



People will break laws, that's just the way it is, sometimes that's unfortunate. The money situation surprised me too though!

You're right, you can't get different varieties of one clone, it looks like the seller is under the impression that all Clone Geckoes are Sandstorms. To tell if a "Bynoe's" is a Clone Gecko or a sexual form of Heteronotia you either need to get the DNA examined (expensive and time consuming) or you need to raise one from a baby in isolation and see if it lays eggs which hatch. They can retain sperm for a fair time, so the isolation is necessary. If a female has not been in isolation you need to get some of her babies, grow them up in isolation and see what happens.

Of course, if the animal is a male, or if it lays eggs which hatch into males, you know it's sexual and not a Clone Gecko. Most of the Heteronotia in captivity come from areas where only sexual forms of Heteronotia 'binoei' occur (you only get sexuals in Victoria, NSW and QLD, unless they just get into the very extreme west of QLD and NSW). You only get sexuals anywhere near Darwin (a different species from the one anywhere near Brisbane or Sydney), although you do get Clone Geckoes further south in NT (living side by side with sexual forms). So, if you don't know, it's almost certainly a sexual of the eastern species, but you do see a few in captivity from the northern sexual species (mostly I see these in pictures from keepers who live up there). All species are extremely variable, and in most cases it is not possible to distinguish them by looking at them. The main exception is some individuals of the northern species (although other individuals of the same species could easily pass for any of the others).

One night in NSW a few years ago I saw around 100 'Bynoe's Geckoes', and amazingly, all were female. In another night in the same area about a year earlier I saw about seven and all were male. On another night (I think it was in the same year I saw the hundred girls) I saw about 15-20, and if I remember correctly there were only two females. This was in an area where only one species (obviously sexual) occurs, the eastern sexual species. In that area they range from speckled to strongly banded with a very wide range of colours, and if you didn't know about the distributions you could easily be fooled into thinking that they were all parthenogens (Clone Geckoes) if you happened to be there on one of the 'girls' nights out' or think that there were probably two species if you were there on one of the 'mostly girls' nights'. I don't know why some nights bring out one sex or the other, or if it is a common thing.

All the species are far too variable to give you any idea about what a 'typical' individual of any species looks like. The most distinct ones are the very boldly banded ones from the north, but they aren't all like that and you get similar ones all over the country.


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## TURBO8 (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey Sdaji , 
Very interesting and informative write up you have provided on the Heteronotia species , do you think the reason that you will see alot of females on one night and on other nights lots of males is due to the day/night temps ?? Cheers. Pete 



Sdaji said:


> People will break laws, that's just the way it is, sometimes that's unfortunate. The money situation surprised me too though!
> 
> You're right, you can't get different varieties of one clone, it looks like the seller is under the impression that all Clone Geckoes are Sandstorms. To tell if a "Bynoe's" is a Clone Gecko or a sexual form of Heteronotia you either need to get the DNA examined (expensive and time consuming) or you need to raise one from a baby in isolation and see if it lays eggs which hatch. They can retain sperm for a fair time, so the isolation is necessary. If a female has not been in isolation you need to get some of her babies, grow them up in isolation and see what happens.
> 
> ...


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## ryanharvey1993 (Nov 10, 2009)

interesting about there range, I have only seen the normal ones, they seem to be common on most places west of the great divide, seen them as south as warrumbungles, but they don't seem to be very common (only saw about 5) same with tamworth only seen a few there.... they were all normal ones of course, but heading north, lightning ridge, we saw over 100, every sheet of tin had a few under them, adults hatchies, eggs everything.... everywhere. they are the most common gecko out there in my opinion. sorry to go even more of topic, but what is the reason for them not being found in south eastern australia, they seem to skip a whole section, yet the habitat seems perfect, does it have something to do with the temperatures they get there? I can't imagine that being a problem, its gets much much colder on the new england tableland where they are commonly found.

also sorry for no paragraphs, I guess I never paid enough attention in english to master that, atleast my spelling and punctuation isnt TOO bad....

thanks, Ryan


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## Sdaji (Nov 10, 2009)

Turbo: I have no idea why some nights bring out one sex or the other. It could be a seasonal thing with most females having reproductive synchronisation and thus synchronised preferences, but I can only guess. If it's less than 10-20 animals you could put it down to chance, more than that and you start thinking it's more than coincidence. Then again, it was just a once off and maybe it was just one of those crazy coincidences.

I'm not sure how you know you have only seen 'normal' ones, Ryan, unless you have only looked in eastern Australia and are basing it on location. I'm not sure which section you are talking about them being missing in. They are pretty much everywhere that has the right climate and habitat. You get them in Victoria, but only in the hottest part. I have seen them through most of the western two thirds of NSW, which seems to be the area you're talking about. They don't hold much territory east of the range because it is too wet and they are outcompeted by moist-adapted species. Most of Victoria/south-east Australia is too cold and wet for them. Then again, with the climate doing what it is we may see them in Melbourne gardens before long!


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## ryanharvey1993 (Nov 10, 2009)

I am guessing they were normal ones because of the range after reading your post. by area missing, it seems south of dubbo they dont seem to be recorded east of there, I know of people herping down at places like parkes and never seeing them, also in reptiles of NSW, the range seems to cover a lot of nsw but misses the south easter part for some reason


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## geckodan (Nov 10, 2009)

ParanoidPython said:


> Hi i saw this add too, in QLD you can use a certain few species of skinks and asian house geckos as a food source for your reptiles, however they must be euthanaised properly before using them, and not live animals of any sorts. We only know this because we have within the last month contacted the EPA regarding this matter because we have millions of asian house geckos around and some very hard to feed hatchlings.
> 
> I must add we caught a few skinks and asian house geckos to breed for this reason and not feed the ones caught from the wild however you can if you wanted to, contact Your states EPA or NPWS or whatever they can tell you what you can legally catch to feed or breed for food


Did they specifically tell you that you were able to collect skinks for use as breeding stock for feeder purposes ?? We have always been allowed to feed wild caught but not remove them for the purposes of breeding feeders.


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## Nephrurus (Nov 10, 2009)

Whats the problem with using feeder geckos?


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## ryanharvey1993 (Nov 10, 2009)

:lol: you always pull that one out, its a classic, would look better with an amyae though....


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## montay (Nov 10, 2009)

These food sources would be full of protozoa etc - a great way to introduce internal parasites into your collection!


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## ParanoidPython (Nov 10, 2009)

geckodan said:


> Did they specifically tell you that you were able to collect skinks for use as breeding stock for feeder purposes ?? We have always been allowed to feed wild caught but not remove them for the purposes of breeding feeders.


 
hey danny, we actually invited the EPA out to have a look around at the different things we have and the set ups, we showed them the housing set up for both the skinks and the AHG's to make sure it was alright, they said it was ok, we also use them to scent the food we are about to feed, usually the hatchlings we let go anyway to replace wild stock only keep a few to grow up and become feeders euthanaised properly before feeding . 

I can only go on what our local EPA officers said when they come out, and they said it was fine lol


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## geckodan (Nov 10, 2009)

ParanoidPython said:


> hey danny, we actually invited the EPA out to have a look around at the different things we have and the set ups, we showed them the housing set up for both the skinks and the AHG's to make sure it was alright, they said it was ok, we also use them to scent the food we are about to feed, usually the hatchlings we let go anyway to replace wild stock only keep a few to grow up and become feeders euthanaised properly before feeding .
> 
> I can only go on what our local EPA officers said when they come out, and they said it was fine lol



Thanks, I'll have a word to our locals and see what their local interpretation is.


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## pyrodarknessanny (Nov 10, 2009)

if you want feeder geckos set up a bucket trap and catch some asian hose geckos, theres enugh of them around, and often you dont even need the whole gecko just its tail. let him go a grow a new one, 
if you have enugh of the bubbers in your house its a simple wat to obtain them. and its verry esay to trick little snakes that a pink mouse is a gecko, only using the juces from ones tail


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## Australis (Nov 11, 2009)

DarkSpartan said:


> They may be protected species but sometimes this needs to be reconsidered in certain circumstances... like the blue groper on the eastern coast becoming extremely common and wide spread.. so now regulations could be implemented in allowing them to be fished as well as controlling adequate population growth...




Where cant you atleast line fish for them on the east coast? (i only know NSW restrictions).


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