# Woah



## Oscar's (Jan 2, 2018)

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-wasps-revealed-to-be-as-deadly-as-its-snakes


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## cement (Jan 10, 2018)

HMMM. we have known about this for quite a while, and I'm going to bring up a subject which will "kick the wasp nest" so to speak.
Our population now suffers from major allergies, numerous child illnesses that we never used to have such as ADD, obesity, brain issues etc. 
Anti-biotics, the wonder drug..... is becoming useless because new strains of bacteria are becoming immune to it.

I'll put it out there......... Diet. And vaccination, and pharmaceutical prescription drugs. Big pharmaceutical have our medical industry by the throat. And big Farmer has our food stores by the throat too.

Kids never used to be allergic to peanuts. Schools never used to have blanket bans on peanut related food. They also didn't use to or need to have special classes for
autism affected kids, but they do now. So what is going on??

I'll get flamed, but the answers ARE out there if anyone is prepared to dig. The sad thing is, we believe our doctors and our govt. Well, most of us do.

Thoughts??


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 10, 2018)

Partly the sterile environment everyone wants to live in these days. Kids never allowed to get a bit of **** on their hands without a sanitised wipe being drawn from mum's emergency medi kit that she takes everywhere because god forbid little Johnny might graze his knee, get an infection and need his leg amputated. Kids don't get out anywhere near enough these days. Most of my generation had an allergy at one time or another but you grow out of it. Now you never get to taste the forbidden fruit again. 

Overuse of antibiotics has rendered them useless to many people, only because doctors are often too weak to tell people NO, you don't need antibiotics, you have a cold ffs.

I don't think the farmers are too much to blame with much of this though they have certainly played their part with insecticides, steroids and the sort but the processed foods and the crap that goes into it these days is frightening. 
The way our (fresh) food is kept cold store for months so we can keep the public fed with seasonal fruit/veg out of season. Hence its always so bland.

If you are about to get flamed cement I will probably be going to hell lol


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## Bl69aze (Jan 10, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Partly the sterile environment everyone wants to live in these days. Kids never allowed to get a bit of **** on their hands without a sanitised wipe being drawn from mum's emergency medi kit that she takes everywhere because god forbid little Johnny might graze his knee, get an infection and need his leg amputated. Kids don't get out anywhere near enough these days. Most of my generation had an allergy at one time or another but you grow out of it. Now you never get to taste the forbidden fruit again.
> 
> Overuse of antibiotics has rendered them useless to many people, only because doctors are often too weak to tell people NO, you don't need antibiotics, you have a cold ffs.
> 
> ...


When ever I used to get scratches or grazes or cuts as a kid, my parents would (unknowingly at the time) joke about “put some dirt on it and you’ll be fine.” So I would (without them knowing) and hey I’m still alive, nothings been chopped off due to infections


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## Scutellatus (Jan 10, 2018)

Diet is definitely a massive part of it. The additives in food cause some serious health issues. There are over 100 additives that are banned in infant food, but are added liberally in food that people from the age of 4 and up eat. There are apps and books that will show you what each number/additive is and their effects on peoples health. Considering some of the health problems caused by these additives it is mind blowing that they are still used.
The special classes for autism kids are virtually non-existent, they are thrown in with normal classes at the detriment to the 30 odd other kids education.
[doublepost=1515557934,1515557772][/doublepost]


Pauls_Pythons said:


> Partly the sterile environment everyone wants to live in these days. Kids never allowed to get a bit of **** on their hands without a sanitised wipe being drawn from mum's emergency medi kit that she takes everywhere because god forbid little Johnny might graze his knee, get an infection and need his leg amputated. Kids don't get out anywhere near enough these days. Most of my generation had an allergy at one time or another but you grow out of it. Now you never get to taste the forbidden fruit again.
> 
> Overuse of antibiotics has rendered them useless to many people, only because doctors are often too weak to tell people NO, you don't need antibiotics, you have a cold ffs.
> 
> ...


It isn't that the doctors are too weak. It is more to do with the golfing holidays etc. that the pharmaceutical industry ply them with.


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 10, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> The special classes for autism kids are virtually non-existent, they are thrown in with normal classes at the detriment to the 30 odd other kids education.



What a ridiculous and unfounded broad sweeping statement. Have you ever met a child that has been diagnosed with autism or Asperger's Syndrome? They generally just want to keep their heads down, be left alone, and learn in peace. It's the so-called normal children who appear to go to great lengths to make life at school a living hell just because they're different. If anything, it's the "normal" children who are a detriment to _their_ education. They never asked to be segregated by both teachers and students. They never asked to be negatively labelled and treated differently.

This all has absolutely nothing to with reptiles or wasps. Why are you even discussing this?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 10, 2018)

I know a bloke at work who has autism and a kid at my daughter's school who has Asperger's... both are nothing short of certified geniuses. Highly intelligent individuals who have no problems at all with academics, mainly just a little socially disadvantaged.... due to the non accepting "normal people" who label them weirdos.


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## cement (Jan 10, 2018)

Ok, the point is there is a growing amount of sickness and ill health in our kids which is a problem. And a hell of a lot of it is along the lines of allergies and auto-immune disease. In the time between my first post and this one, I got news that a friend has just been flown down to a major hospital because of severe anaphylactic reaction yo something, but no-one knows what. At this point if the doctors take her off steroids she goes into Anaphylactic shock and will die without being pumped full of steroids.
Its a serious problem.
I wonder if she was vaccinated as a young child though.


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 10, 2018)

I'm not sure how the story about bee/wasp stings got distorted into a story about allergies.Sure both are fairly worrying in their way,but some people have always been allergic/reactive to stings;the other things are more of a newer thing,steroids and over use of anti-biotics have changed the human health scenario.Too much of anything is not a good thing.
But this new thing about peanut(et al)allergies is just over the top, to me it's just a load of cobblers."oh little Jimmy can't go near some kid who ate peanuts etc. because he will die" REALLY? get out of your helicopters people.
When I was a kid if parents heard of some kid with chicken pox,they would make us play with them so we didn't get chicken pox etc.Eat some dirt and get healthy you soft C**ks!!!!


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 10, 2018)

cement said:


> I wonder if she was vaccinated as a young child though



Sorry to hear about you friend mate. I had the vaccinations and so did my kids. None of us have any allergies. I do think quite often kids are 'treated' for allergies without really having anything they wouldn't have grown out of if just left to it like we were 40 odd years ago.



Nero Egernia said:


> It's the so-called normal children who appear to go to great lengths to make life at school a living hell just because they're different.



I got to agree with that.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 10, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> What a ridiculous and unfounded broad sweeping statement. Have you ever met a child that has been diagnosed with autism or Asperger's Syndrome? They generally just want to keep their heads down, be left alone, and learn in peace. It's the so-called normal children who appear to go to great lengths to make life at school a living hell just because they're different. If anything, it's the "normal" children who are a detriment to _their_ education. They never asked to be segregated by both teachers and students. They never asked to be negatively labelled and treated differently.
> 
> This all has absolutely nothing to with reptiles or wasps. Why are you even discussing this?


Are you serious Oshkii?
I am talking from experience, I have three kids at school and each one of them have kids in their class on the autism spectrum that disrupt class activities on a daily basis. There are varying levels of autism and not all of them 'keep their heads down' as you say. There are the ones that keep their heads down and are not a threat, then there is then other end of the scale where they have a propensity for violent behaviour without any emotional thought and no feelings of regret or sorrow. Then there are the ones closer to the middle who have a propensity for violence but have an emotional reaction afterward which causes them to feel regret and sorrow for their actions. There are also many combinations of the above in between.
The issues I see with kids these day are ten even twenty fold what they were thirty years ago.

My children have a right to an uninterrupted education and so do the other ninety kids in their three classes and I refuse to tow the PC line just to make the few that cause the issues happy.


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## Buggster (Jan 11, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Are you serious Oshkii?
> I am talking from experience, I have three kids at school and each one of them have kids in their class on the autism spectrum that disrupt class activities on a daily basis. There are varying levels of autism and not all of them 'keep their heads down' as you say. There are the ones that keep their heads down and are not a threat, then there is then other end of the scale where they have a propensity for violent behaviour without any emotional thought and no feelings of regret or sorrow. Then there are the ones closer to the middle who have a propensity for violence but have an emotional reaction afterward which causes them to feel regret and sorrow for their actions. There are also many combinations of the above in between.
> The issues I see with kids these day are ten even twenty fold what they were thirty years ago.
> 
> My children have a right to an uninterrupted education and so do the other ninety kids in their three classes and I refuse to tow the PC line just to make the few that cause the issues happy.



Speaking from personal experience:
Parents these days don't want anyone to say "no" to their precious baby. I've been verbally assaulted by mothers whos children i told "no, you cant pet my dog". It's absolutely insane that parents now refuse to say no- and as a result children are growing up with no boundaries and no rules. I was taught to be respectful of other people- I was taught how I should behave in public. Toddlers and young children really get on my nerves in public- the screaming, crying, begging... if i had done that i would have had my butt kicked or left at home.
In the case of children with autism, the children don't understand normal social cues- they won't see many things such as facial expression/body language as important and as a result they do miss out on a huge amount of information that the world outputs. They very often need to be told step-by-step what is appropriate behaviour and what is not.
Combine that with "yes" parents, you end up with a kid who knows no boundaries and no rules. They don't understand what they're doing in inappropriate- and when the kids do get old enough and big enough that they do become a serious problem it is a much harder task to essentially 'retrain' them.

I feel things like autism, adhd, add, ect are just so overdiagnosed. Parents want something to explain why their 'precious angel' isn't perfectly well behaved. Parents need an excuse as to why they failed their job of raising a kid who will fit into society.

I recently saw a kid whos parents claimed he had Tourettes. I'm no expert, but all this kid did was swear very maliciously at his parents and other people. I know swearing can be a tic, but it was evident his so called 'tics' were very intentional. If you've ever met someone with tourettes, you'll know its generally very easy to tell a 'tic' from normal speech. This kid just had a serious potty mouth and his parents needed something to tell other people.


And as for the original matter...
I don't think the rates of allergies has gone up all that much. People are living longer, more people are having kids and there is obviously a much larger population.
1/100 people having an allergy doesnt sound so bad. 1000/1000000 sounds much worse simply because now 1000 people have an allergy. But both represent only 1% of a population...


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## Scutellatus (Jan 11, 2018)

Buggster said:


> Speaking from personal experience:
> Parents these days don't want anyone to say "no" to their precious baby. I've been verbally assaulted by mothers whos children i told "no, you cant pet my dog". It's absolutely insane that parents now refuse to say no- and as a result children are growing up with no boundaries and no rules. I was taught to be respectful of other people- I was taught how I should behave in public. Toddlers and young children really get on my nerves in public- the screaming, crying, begging... if i had done that i would have had my butt kicked or left at home.
> In the case of children with autism, the children don't understand normal social cues- they won't see many things such as facial expression/body language as important and as a result they do miss out on a huge amount of information that the world outputs. They very often need to be told step-by-step what is appropriate behaviour and what is not.
> Combine that with "yes" parents, you end up with a kid who knows no boundaries and no rules. They don't understand what they're doing in inappropriate- and when the kids do get old enough and big enough that they do become a serious problem it is a much harder task to essentially 'retrain' them.
> ...


The kids I am talking about have been assessed and are on the spectrum, they are not just badly behaved children. I also want to point out that I wasn't attacking autistic people with my posts I was merely pointing out that the specialised autism classes are virtually non-existent, which does effect the whole class of kids without autism. This is the fault of schools who are underfunded to begin with and are paid extra funding for children with disablities. It is also the fault of the parents of the autistic children who are constantly contacted to come to the school to deal with events that happen and refuse to do the right thing for both their child and the other children in the class by finding an alternative education facility.
Because of the fact that the child has a disability, the school won't expel for fear of litigaton and also because of the funding they will lose.


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## Buggster (Jan 11, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> The kids I am talking about have been assessed and are on the spectrum, they are not just badly behaved children. I also want to point out that I wasn't attacking autistic people with my posts I was merely pointing out that the specialised autism classes are virtually non-existent, which does effect the whole class of kids without autism. This is the fault of schools who are underfunded to begin with and are paid extra funding for children with disablities. It is also the fault of the parents of the autistic children who are constantly contacted to come to the school to deal with events that happen and refuse to do the right thing for both their child and the other children in the class by finding an alternative education facility.
> Because of the fact that the child has a disability, the school won't expel for fear of litigaton and also because of the funding they will lose.




I completely agree- I was attempting to say more often than not, the approach of the parent is detrimental to the behaviour of a child with autism. 
I’m almost certain said kids who are often ‘disruptive’ in a class/social situation would do so much better if the parents were better able to communicate and teach their children better


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 11, 2018)

Jesus...THIS turned into a conversation about disabilities? Wow. Just Wow.


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## Ashleyyedwards7 (Jan 11, 2018)

I'm a strong believer that the over-cleanliness of the Western world causes more allergies, because we do not grow up allowing our bodies to learn how to fight certain bacteria, foreign particles etc. I've had Atopy since I was a kid, which is a combo of hayfever, asthma, and allergic dermatitis. I am not excessively hygienic now, nor was I really as a child, I was always one of those kids digging around in dirt looking for wildlife (as I'm sure most of us on here were). And I avoid pharmaceuticals as much as I can now (although not when I was a kid). So I wonder if it was my mother's cleanliness and use of pharmaceuticals before/ during her pregnancy... It's an interesting topic. I have been vaccinated throughout my life.


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## cement (Jan 11, 2018)

It's difficult to comprehend that there would be a link between allergies to bee, ant and wasp venom and other dis-ease/dis-ability like autism etc, but there is.
We live in a toxic soup. Pollution, dusts, metals, food, alchohol, drugs,stress, its all a strain on the immunity system. It doesn't take long for the system to become overloaded and problems arise. You don't grow out of dis-ease. What happens is that the immunity system simply finds a way to deal with the allergy and keep it at bay. But our immunity system when stretched, can break down quite easily when the organs are full of toxins. Which can result in a multitude of seemingly unrelated issues.
I've had the pleasure of spending time with Robbie Bredl, and was blown away by his knowledge of how the natural web of life all meshed together, seemingly unrelated species of plants and animals and how they all fit in together and how a problem with one, will affect the rest.
His knowledge follows along the same path of another person I greatly admire who is a naturopath, who has the same understanding but along the lines of how the systems of our bodies work exactly the same way. And why wouldn't it be that way?
Doctors, on the other hand, do not look at it like that. This last winter, I needed 4 courses of strong anti-biotics to pull up an infection that got into the elbow joint from a tiny scratch at work, I woke up with a massive elbow, it literally blew up overnight. The anti-biotics stopped the infection eventually, but destroyed the immunity system to the point that a common cold my wife bought home that didn't even hardly register in her, nearly killed me. Once again the doctors only response was to say "well, we don't want to give you any more anti-biotics, but maybe just take a pro-biotic every day,''. They have no idea of how to repair the damage done to the organs or the gut by these medications. He did however say that this winter was the worst for the flu virus, with more people contracting flu this year then ever before. Strangely, it has also been the biggest year of administered flu vaccine!! But they are scratching their heads, have no idea, and just simply think "oh well, it is what it is". I was told I had better get up to date with tetanus, because I have no record of being vaccinated and in their words "considering my lifestyle", I almost agreed....but then the nurse said "do you want diphtheria or whooping cough?" Apparently they don't vaccinate just with the tetanus any more, it is a double dose with either of those others too. Thats when i told them to shove their vaccines. If I haven't got tetanus nor do I know of anyone who has ever had it, and I have livestock farming in my family, plus 30 years in domestic construction, then why the F*** would I want ??? 

Charlie Darwin's theory on evolution is based on competition and survival of the fittest, basically, slight differences in individuals can be detrimental or advantageous to a species as a whole, which will allow the ongoing growth of a species and the destruction of another that may share the same niche in the environment, that doesn't have the same slight advantage.

People are the same, some are born with stronger immunity systems that can tolerate higher levels of stress than others. Anyone here know of a mate who can drink, smoke or partake in more quantities of drugs then others? Thats as simple a way of understanding what is going on. If you pass out after 6 beers and your mate can drink 30 before passing out, then you may have a weaker immune system. If you consider that a leaky gut or an overloaded toxic liver can make a person angry or depressed, then thats a start on seeing why we have so many problems as a species. Individuals who enjoy great health, ie, healthy organs, are happy, and deal with stress much better then others. The trick is allowing ourselves to be healthy isn't it? 

If snakes shared the same way of life as bees and the other flying stinging insects, then you could guarantee that they would have the deserved reputation that would come along with that. But they don't.


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 11, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Are you serious Oshkii?
> I am talking from experience, I have three kids at school and each one of them have kids in their class on the autism spectrum that disrupt class activities on a daily basis. There are varying levels of autism and not all of them 'keep their heads down' as you say. There are the ones that keep their heads down and are not a threat, then there is then other end of the scale where they have a propensity for violent behaviour without any emotional thought and no feelings of regret or sorrow. Then there are the ones closer to the middle who have a propensity for violence but have an emotional reaction afterward which causes them to feel regret and sorrow for their actions. There are also many combinations of the above in between.
> The issues I see with kids these day are ten even twenty fold what they were thirty years ago.
> 
> My children have a right to an uninterrupted education and so do the other ninety kids in their three classes and I refuse to tow the PC line just to make the few that cause the issues happy.



My apologies for the outburst, Scutellatus. It sounds as though either the school or parents have poorly managed the situation. I can see why you might be concerned. I'd like to point out that no autistic child is aggressive for the sake of it, however. It often stems from frustration due to a lack of understanding and communication. Imagine being trapped in a world where you don't understand others, try as you might, and in turn not being able to communicate your own feelings and intentions. It's not too different from us reptile lovers trying to convey that snakes are not the so-called spawn of Satan, and yet, people just don't understand, or simply choose not to.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 11, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> It's not too different from us reptile lovers trying to convey that snakes are not the so-called spawn of Satan, and yet, people just don't understand, or simply choose not to.



Oh yeah I got told exactly this today by an African guy from the Congo Delta... told me that "snakes are the devil and that you should kill your snakes and not have them in your house and that if you want to see animals, go to the Bush"... he then proceeded to.say... "If I want to see a tree, I go to the park, I don't have a tree in my house...

So yes... I guess the buses don't go where he lives...


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## Scutellatus (Jan 11, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> My apologies for the outburst, Scutellatus. It sounds as though either the school or parents have poorly managed the situation. I can see why you might be concerned. I'd like to point out that no autistic child is aggressive for the sake of it, however. It often stems from frustration due to a lack of understanding and communication. Imagine being trapped in a world where you don't understand others, try as you might, and in turn not being able to communicate your own feelings and intentions. It's not too different from us reptile lovers trying to convey that snakes are not the so-called spawn of Satan, and yet, people just don't understand, or simply choose not to.


All good Kayla, it is a sensitive situation so I do understand your reaction. One point I do want to make is that the autism spectrum is very broad and includes autism of varying degrees from acute to severe, because of this you can't use blanket statements about the reasons for aggression etc. as there are some on the lower end of the scale that most definitely know what they are doing, when they are doing it.
There needs to be more specialised education facilities that can educate these kids in a way that suits their needs, so both they and the kids in non-specialised schools can get an uninterrupted education.


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## Foozil (Jan 11, 2018)

Wow the hijacking of threads on the forum though... From wasps to disabilities? There are other places to talk about this.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 11, 2018)

Foozil said:


> Wow the hijacking of threads on the forum though... From wasps to disabilities? There are other places to talk about this.


If you don't like it then don't participate. This conversation progressed through a natural process and was not hijacked by anybody.


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## Foozil (Jan 11, 2018)

True, but why can't we just keep the thread about what it was originally made for?


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 11, 2018)

either way i feel we should get on track or make a thread about disabilities, this is about wasps and snakes, not disabilities.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 11, 2018)

Foozil said:


> True, but why can't we just keep the thread about what it was originally made for?


Because this is how conversations go. Sometimes you get down a track and think how did we get here. There is no point turning around until we've had a look though.


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## Foozil (Jan 11, 2018)

Also true


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 11, 2018)

Imported_tuatara and Foozil are totally justified in requesting that the thread be brought back on topic. If the OP does not have a right to bring a thread back on topic, then what is the point of them starting the thread in the first place? What about those that wish to read about hyper allergic reactions to toxins and discover the vast majority of the thread is about something else? And those wishing to make a comment about hyper allergic reactions but don’t want to risk wasting their time and energy in doing so, as it is may well be ignored because the conversation is dominated by completely different topics? 

Intentionally or unintentionally, in this particular the topic was hijacked IMO. In the second post a comment was made about how “kids never used to be allergic to peanuts” and schools never had to ban it. Fair enough, as it was at least related to the topic in terms of hyper reactions to allergens. Unfortunately that was then followed by a spurious comment and question about schools dealing with autism, with no explanation of how this linked to the original topic. If that is not taking the discussion off topic, then what is? 

I will add that there are circumstances where a thread sometimes gets diverted by a side issue which is contentious but basically emanates from a post on the topic at hand. Fair enough to let it run for a brief period and see if it is resolved. This usually does not put people off posting on topic at the same time. That is not same as having two or more very different topics running concurrently, to the detriment of the OP’s intended topic.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 11, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Imported_tuatara and Foozil are totally justified in requesting that the thread be brought back on topic. If the OP does not have a right to bring a thread back on topic, then what is the point of them starting the thread in the first place? What about those that wish to read about hyper allergic reactions to toxins and discover the vast majority of the thread is about something else? And those wishing to make a comment about hyper allergic reactions but don’t want to risk wasting their time and energy in doing so, as it is may well be ignored because the conversation is dominated by completely different topics?
> 
> Intentionally or unintentionally, in this particular the topic was hijacked IMO. In the second post a comment was made about how “kids never used to be allergic to peanuts” and schools never had to ban it. Fair enough, as it was at least related to the topic in terms of hyper reactions to allergens. Unfortunately that was then followed by a spurious comment and question about schools dealing with autism, with no explanation of how this linked to the original topic. If that is not taking the discussion off topic, then what is?
> 
> I will add that there are circumstances where a thread sometimes gets diverted by a side issue which is contentious but basically emanates from a post on the topic at hand. Fair enough to let it run for a brief period and see if it is resolved. This usually does not put people off posting on topic at the same time. That is not same as having two or more very different topics running concurrently, to the detriment of the OP’s intended topic.


Considering there weren't any replies to the thread until a week after being posted I fail to see how the thread was hijacked. It has just progressed along a different path, a path worthy of discussion in my opinion.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 12, 2018)

I take your point. However none of us maintained that the content of the off topic discussion was not worthwhile. What we said was that it just not appropriate under the opening post and it should be continued in a thread of its own.

In this particular instance I actually think the term “hijacked” is inappropriate, but used it because forum users relate to that. What actually happened was that the thread quickly got taken off topic by a comment made and this expanded into array of topics unrelated to the opening post.

I totally accept we don’t want to stifle active discussion which provides forum readers with food for thought. However, the forum is not structured as a free for all random discussion platform. Threads are topic based and archived for future access. If you ignore that on a regular basis, then not only do current threads lose their relevance to many forum readers/users but archiving becomes a waste of time and effort. The solution to avoid this is so very simple. As was suggested, continue the discussion under an appropriate thread of its own


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## cement (Jan 12, 2018)

The OP raises an issue that looked at by itself, seems pretty small and unrelated to anything more than the fact that because theres a higher number of bees, equals more bee stings. Its typical to have more of a problem where there are higher densities of a population, it's a numbers thing. But in todays world, the higher rates of people sufferring serious allergy problems, not only to bee stings but to a whole plethora of different seemingly unrelated issues is staggering. I am attempting to use this article as a starting point to bring some awareness to a bigger picture, rather then simply reading an article and going "woah!" without any thought to "why?". I mentioned the word autism, which obviously struck a chord with some who took it as the main issue but it wasn't how I meant it to come across, but in the light of 'prevention is better than a cure', this thread may demonstrate a typical human behaviour of ignorantly bumbling along a pathway, only to find ourselves in a situation that with a bit of fore thought could be avoided.
The article begs the question, why are so many people allergic to bee sting? Is it just because they are? This is the point I am trying to make, because I don't think that is the case. I would love to see the stats on food related allergies that have hospitalised people too, or pharmaceutical drug related deaths and allergies as well, as a ratio to the growth of human population. Would people then start to sit up and take notice that there is something majorly wrong with our society.
Vaccinations are handed out like lollies, with ABSOLUTELY NO PRIOR HEALTH CHECKS ON THE INDIVIDUAL BEING VACCINATED!!! Yesterday afternoon while listening to the radio on the way to the shops the latest is that they are now going to start vaccinating PREGNANT women. This is nothing more than a crime against humanity and I firmly believe that depositing toxic serum into a woman carrying a foetus that is at the very earliest stages of development, will not only further the allergy problem but will bring about a whole host of more serious issues down the track.
Pharmaceutical companies do not care about healing people, otherwise they will go out of business. And it is huge business. If you really want to understand the reason for the original article then take a look at the "medicines" we take, how they are derived and administered, and how the medical industry itself plays a part in these statistics.
We have all heard the catch phrase "side effects", but do we really understand it?

Or we all could just go back to reading an article about bees and say, "woah". Which in itself leaves it as a one post thread.

I've been on this planet for over half a century, and seen a lot of changes. The allergy issue is close to my heart and I have seen it destroy people I love, and I have done a lot of research into it. The OP brings up an issue that I beleive the population as a whole needs more awareness about. 

As far as thread hijack goes, so what? An article was put up without any notes from the poster, so who cares what way it goes? I don't think anyone here needs a slap on the wrist from self appointed forum police.


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## Foozil (Jan 12, 2018)

yeah i agree "hijacked" wasn't really the correct term to use in this situation


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## vampstorso (Jan 12, 2018)

My husband had the pleasure once of accidentally upsetting some wasps while motorbike riding. 
Went to the emergency room barely breathing, and they kept telling him (I assume simply because he was a young guy) they couldn't help him until he told them what drugs he had taken. They didn't believe him at all that it was wasp stings causing his troubles. 
He passed out and the doctors again harped on his friend saying they wouldn't help until he told them the 'real' story. 


Needless to say he is now rather touchy around stinging insects!


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## Stompsy (Jan 12, 2018)

I very recently discovered I am allergic to antihistamines. I don’t get hay fever so I’d only ever taken them once before and did not have any reaction. 

Recently I went to the doctor as I was feeling itchy all over, constantly. I had changed nothing in my diet or day to day activities to bring on the itchiness and the doctor prescribed me antihistamines. I went home and took one and within an hour I looked as though I had measles. Took another, not recognising the correlation between the welts and medication and woke up the next morning covered from head to toe. 

I then went back to the doctor who prescribed steroids which cleared up the issue. My doctor and the pharamasist were both skeptical of the reaction being due to the medication. 

Fast forward about two months and I take a different antihistamine for another ailment, which lands me in hospital. I blow up again but also can’t stand or move around for long periods and am having trouble breathing. I was tachycardic and required adrenaline and steroids administered intravenously (an ultrasound of my veins was also required as I had blown up to the point where my veins weren’t visible). 

All went well and I was discharged a few hours later. However, the doctors at the hospital were still dubious about the cause being antihistamines as that’s what people take for reactions!

I was advised to keep note of any future reactions and given a script for an epi pen. 

Needless to say, I won’t be taking antihistamines ever again.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 13, 2018)

@cement. Thanks for the explanation. It seems some took the “What’s is going on?” question to be directed at just autism, rather than the whole paragraph, which is not what you intended. An unfortunate misinterpretation. However it happened does not really matter as much as getting things back on track, which is exactly what your last post has done. Good job.

Someone mentioned that the increase in allergies was only because of an increased population size. That is not correct. The percentage of the population suffering from allergies, and chronic inflammatory diseases like asthma, has doubled to tripled in last 50 years.

There is nothing new about the basic information on causes of death in Australia. It is available from the Bureau of Statistics and has been on-line for years. The following is an excerpt from a handout I wrote several years ago…
*“Cause of Death Av. / Year*
Crocodiles 2
Snakebite 3
Bees, Wasps, Ants 3
Dogs 6
Horse riding 20
Beach drowning 55
River or Creek drowning 75
When you compare the potential dangers of something like swimming in nature, to that from snakes, it becomes clear that the hazards associated with snakes in this country are commonly way over stated!”

One thing I disagree with is the connection between immunisation shots and development of allergies. This is something that has been thoroughly investigated and the hard data does not support it. What we do know is that prior to vaccinations epidemics of Diphtheria, Whooping Cough and Measles, along with Tetanus infections, used to kill hundreds every year, despite medical intervention.


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## cement (Jan 13, 2018)

Blue, the adverse effects following immunisation in Australia records, as put out by the Dept of health, shows that immunisation and vaccines can result in differing degrees of adverse effects, from minor injection site reactions to more serious complications. There were 5 deaths on the report in 2014, with 4 of them occurring within days of being vaccinated and 1, 6 weeks later. 
The comment from them is,
"All deaths were investigated by the TGA and no clear causal relationship with vaccination was found."
Of course not. It was entirely the individuals own fault because they all had some type of medical condition prior to being vaccinated.
Now, consider that a human liver function test as done by our local GP's by bloods, can only pick up when a liver is damaged to the point of almost complete failure, it cannot pick up a liver that is just (for want of a better word) sluggish, overloaded or struggling to perform at best levels.
The reason I use this is because testing for an individuals own levels of organ health and function isn't even considered when offered vaccination. Actually "offering" to an infant or a child is probably the wrong word. 
Vaccines come and go, they list approximately 29 different vaccines, that chop and change as time goes by. Its by no means an exact science, they are delivered to different sections of the community here and there, with some blanket roll outs, some not, they are used and discontinued as whoever is in power at the time sees fit.

We can disagree on wether vaccination plays a role, large or small role in the populations increased allergy issues, but would you agree that it may be a contributing factor?
When most disasters happen, it's generally a build up of different factors that culminate in a result. So throw in our polluted environment, stuff that we call food which is really no more then poison, drinking water that really should be filtered and cleaned, plus the cocktail of metals we breathe and the rest ... and we end up with a population of overloaded and toxic organs which directly affects our immunity systems.

Most allergies are an auto-immune response to our bodies not recognising its own self defence mechanisms. In laymens terms, we attack ourselves.
Our medical industry has a lot to answer for, but it never will, because it is such huge business and carries so much power, and the majority of the population is uneducated in true health maintenance, and we willingly hand over responsibility for our health to external powers that be. Along with our life savings.

One thing we can all agree on though is this, the more toxins we intake, the less our own individual immunity system works.


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## RoryBreaker (Jan 13, 2018)




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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 14, 2018)

@cement I think you have been misinformed by someone about liver function tests. The liver is a critical organ and the largest one in the body with the greatest range of functions. If the liver is not functioning as it should then the chemicals it is supposed to produce will drop below the normal range found in the blood and/or the waste chemicals it processes will increase above the normal range. There are half a dozen blood chemicals that have been identified as sensitive bio-indicators of liver function. In a liver function test these are measured and will show changes to normal levels with even minor changes to liver function. Following that there is a suite of different blood chemicals controlled by the liver that can be measured to ascertain the specific nature of any liver dysfunction. Many of these test have been developed to provide medical practioners with sensitive information on hepatitis sufferers in order to manage this disorder.

Immunisations prevent millions of deaths world-wide each year. In Australia they are not just administered willy-nilly as a number of people have indicated. The medical fraternity does its best to minimise potential adverse outcomes. They provide clear guidelines for the administration of immunisations…
http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/i...andbook10-home~handbook10part2~handbook10-2-1

Someone stated that there is no screening of patients prior to immunisation. That is not correct. The following is a questionnaire that has to be completed prior to being vaccinated.
http://www.ncirs.edu.au/assets/prov...ccination-screening-checklist_2015-update.pdf

For those that want to argue that a physical test for screening should be provided, they have no understanding of the massive range of measurements that would involve and the huge cost of employing experts required to do so. And even then, every potential reaction may not be identified.

The irrefutable fact is that immunisations prevent millions of deaths world-wide each year. Historically the development and use of vaccines has not all been clean sailing. However, we have learned from those mistakes and that is why the development and introduction of any vaccine or improved version is governed by a very clear and strict set of criteria and guidelines. It is in NO WAY an adhoc affair. There are a dozen vaccines currently recommended and they these do not alter ‘willy nilly’ – refer to the first article referenced above.

There is more I would be happy to discuss but I think that is probably sufficient for the moment. 

One last comment that I feel needs to be made. I am aware that a percentage of the large pharmaceutical companies and other health industry related suppliers are driven by profits rather than concern for human welfare. Such companies are known to exert inappropriate pressure on certain medical service suppliers to utilise their products to the exclusion of other treatments that may be more effective. It would also seem that a percentage of these corrupt practices are sustained by political interference.

Irrespective of all the fore-going, were it not for good doctors and the medical fraternity, I would have been dead several times over. Maybe this is why I tend to take generalised criticism of the medical fraternity, where specific relevant details are lacking, with a grain of salt.


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## cement (Jan 14, 2018)

I'm coming from personal experience Bluetongue, as appropriate as it is to show the protocols you have shown here, that doesn't mean they happen. As a parent of three, we were NEVER given any such screening forms for our kids, nor have I ever received any of this info about vaccination prior to being offered a vaccine. And as mentioned I was offered tetanus only 6 months ago. You have used this protocol to show us what SHOULD take place, but if I personally have recently been offered a vaccine and this was absent, it seems all to political. In fact I do suffer from an auto-immune disease, and at the time they offered it to me I was dealing with an infection in the joint of my elbow. All up, with the 4 courses of anti-biotics it took to pull up the infection, and then the subsequent cold that almost had me hospitalised because of what the anti-biotics did to my system I missed 2.5 months of work this last winter. I am still recovering now, but because i use different path of healing and I got fairly smashed it takes a little while. I am repairing my gut, and my liver.

From the pre vaccine handbook you put up is the following-
"The safety and effectiveness of some vaccines may be suboptimal in persons who are immunocompromised" I would underline the word safety if I knew how.

Also, how does this handbook come into play if the govt now lawfully bans un vaccinated kids from childcare or school? Is the handbook law, or is it just a guideline for what sorta, kinda should happen? Because its the first time Ive ever seen it, certainly wasn't mentioned to me 6 months ago.

Concerning liver function tests, been there done that too. You cannot have chronic fatigue, a body covered in unexplained blisters and rashes, a brain that can't think clearly, chronic asthma and bronchitis, double bout of pneumonia and a swollen guts without having a compromised liver. Yet my liver tests showed everything was AOK. 
So when the doctors don't have an answer, but offer drugs that may help, but also may cause more side effects, what good are these written legislations and protocols now?

When all I had to do was eliminate certain foods (well, a freakin hell of a lot of foods, or what we all see as normal food), and then use certain natural medicines as prescribed by a practitioner (before you turn on me with charlatan or hippy or whatever, check out companies like Metagenics) to support organ health while I recovered. And it was a long recovery.
If I get stung by a bee it is completely gone in 30 mins. Green ant bites (our southern ones, not the tropical soft variety) are dealt with by my system in less time and hoppy joes the same. 

We don't need to be bent over by these doctors and drug companies, there are extremely valid alternate resources out there, but there certainly is a need for the surgeons and hospitals and nurses that do a fantastic job, no denying that at all, but when it gets back to the allergy issue and the question why, there are answers.

The alternate resources I talk about are natural products. Other then good healthy preferably organic fruit veges and meat, they must only be prescribed by a practitioner, but they are natural derivatives and the only side effect is very good health. Now the interesting part.... drug companies CANNOT patent, natural resources. They find what works in nature and then build it in a test tube with chemicals so that they own the formula. This is why it works but you have side effects. 

I apologise to you Bluetongue if my posts seen generalised without the scientific papers that you find and put up, I don't have uni education only life. But the practitioner who has defenatly put me on track (2nd time now) does, and they would be able to talk to you about this and prove what they say. Personally, the only proof I need is having the experience of what I have been through, not what I read.
When you put up a paper that may or may not be actually used in the real world, then that grain of salt can go both ways can't it?

I still stand by my original point that there is a reason for the increase in allergic reaction to more and more things, but you won't find the answer in a paper or in the medical fraternity either for that matter.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 14, 2018)

I am a Father of five kids from the age of three up to eleven and can definitely attest to there being no screening forms given. Your kid gets jabbed, you have to hang around for half an hour to see if there are any extreme side effects and you are then sent on your way with a piece of paper that tells you some minimal side effects to look for.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 14, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> I am a Father of five kids from the age of three up to eleven and can definitely attest to there being no screening forms given. Your kid gets jabbed, you have to hang around for half an hour to see if there are any extreme side effects and you are then sent on your way with a piece of paper that tells you some minimal side effects to look for.



Same with my kids and grand children.
All seems a little irresponsible from the authorities even though I am an advocate of child immunisation. Without proper screening there are always going to be those who slip the net and have reactions later.
I'm of the opinion that this is due to the lack of resources more than anything else.


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## cement (Jan 14, 2018)

thanks for your honesty guys. My wife is in the natural health industry and has a personal friend who is a GP. This friend (she's a GP ok so she has knowledge right?), didn't let her own kids get vaccinated for SOME things. Others she did, but she denied them a select few saying that the risk was just too high.
We are told that vaccines have saved millions blah, blah , blah, but consider this..... Are the great acheivements credited to vaccination really a result of vaccination?
Because along the way, we have also had an increase (thanks to technology) in better overall health, for example the importance of washing hands, better sewerage disposal, better sanitation, better ways of dealing with our own rubbish, better plumbing, better more healthier homes being built, more awareness about simple things like excersise and diet, better ways to farm. Improvements to our way of life.
My kids had pet rabbits for a while and I noticed that they were getting slack on the fresh water dept. The health of the animals was beginning to deteriorate. I made a concerted effort to make sure I gave them fresh water every day and every other day washed their water bowls. The health of the rabbits quickly improved and they went on to breed me lots of snake food. Only fresh clean water! If they contracted disease which they would of, it would be because of stress brought about by the lack of fresh water. If I had taken a sick rabbit to the vet they would have given it a name and medication.
20 odd years ago, I moved from the tweed valley down here to the central coast. I'm a builder so I was working with plumbers who have worked in the area a long time. When I mentioned the fish kill that happened in Cochrane Lagoon at Copacabana, (literally hundreds of dead juvenile bream and other species), they told me that it had only been 2 years previous that Copa had been fully connected to the sewer system. Which meant that before then septic tanks had been leaching raw sewerage into the ground which ultimatly would end up in the lagoon. These guys did not like the idea of swimming in the lagoon at all. So we are told by our govt and by the drug companies who are very unethical, that we have vaccination to thank , but it may not be so 100%.
My daughter has a girlfriend whose little brother received a vaccination. That night he experienced fever and sickness, and was admitted to hospital. He was perfectly healthy, before the jab. The fevers were so bad with such prolonged high temps that he now as a late teenager has the mental equivalent of a 4-5 yr old. These are real people and a real case. When I go back to see my practitioner in two weeks I will get and put a link up here to studies being done on the link between vaccination and autism. 

as bluetongue has shown us, we should be fully informed and screening done before immunisation, but thankfully others have come on and backed me up that we are not.

Please note - I am not attempting to belittle, argue, point fingers etc just plain old healthy debate, which may open awareness. We have the right to good solid health, and the right choose how we acheive that. As adults we have the right to trust our instincts rather then being told by someone who doesn't know us, let alone care about us to force us to do anything at all , that may or may not affect this.


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## jahan (Jan 14, 2018)

"Now, consider that a human liver function test as done by our local GP's by bloods, can only pick up when a liver is damaged to the point of almost complete failure, it cannot pick up a liver that is just (for want of a better word) sluggish, overloaded or struggling to perform at best levels".
This is true on the Kidneys as my sons Kidneys failed because of some medication he was on. His Nephrologist told him that they can only tell if he has 50% of function back but they can`t tell how much. He still sees his Nephrologist every 12mths now after 7yrs of his Kidneys failing.


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## cement (Jan 15, 2018)

Sorry to hear that Jahan, I have another mate who's boy was affected much the same.

"In an era where we have more scientists, doctors, medical personnel, dieticians, nutritionists, hospitals, pharmaceuticals, community support services, health bureaucrats, medical researches and facilities and more govt investment in health...... we have never been more collectively sick in the known history of the human race."

"Today, the global revenue generated by the pharmaceutical sector is in the vicinity of US$1 Trillion, up from US$390 Billion in 2001, and a mere US$6 Billion in 1980, when the obesity epidemic could be said to have commenced." quotes from "eating ourselves sick" by L. Stephan.

For anyone who is interested to get an insight into how large corporations have played a major role in our declining health as a whole, and anyone who is stuck in the medical system where we pay for treatment rather then outcome, this book "Eating ourselves sick", by Louise Stephen I highly recommend. It is very well researched.

For you Jahan, the author of this book, has been through similar to your son, which was the reason she wrote it, for everyone else... you may just find yourself in here too. 
The foreword is by DR Ross Walker, MB BS(Hons), FRACP, FCANZ who is a consulting cardiologist in Sydney. I mention this so that people like Blutongue1 who have a resistance to anything other then scientific "hard data", may be interested too. Its full of hard data.
Definetly worth the $35 I paid.


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## RoryBreaker (Jan 15, 2018)

I still have nothing worthwhile to add.


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## cement (Jan 15, 2018)

ha! i agree


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 15, 2018)

Have been preoccupied and cannot keep up with the posts. So this one relates to several posts ago.

It is very disappointing to hear that vaccinations are given without the screening questionnaire being given to parents. The handbook and questionnaire is produced by the Federal Government but it seems vaccination procedures are under the control of state governments. You would expect that the Federal govt. would at least make the reporting of severe adverse events following immunisation compulsory, but going by the wording in the handbook it is only very strongly recommended. So its up to the individual medical practioner – which I consider an absolutely crap arrangement. People have a right to make informed decisions on these things but how can they do that with confidence when all relevant information does not have to be put onto the public record? That aside, @cement: Do you know which vaccine it was that your wife’s GP friend refused? 

I guess what I initially reacted to was the “all these things have changed for the worse, so therefore they are all part of the cause” logic. Good science is about investigating and determining causal links to identify those factors which are definitely involved. A recent example is identifying the Sunshine Virus as being responsible for the OPMV like symptoms and deaths of a large number of snakes in Australian collections. If a causative factor or factors is/are at work, then that causative factor or factors should show up in each case. That’s what ‘hard data’ means to me. There are far too many cases of people associating cause and effect based on timing and often a singular event and then making generalised claims of causality. Some even invent claims. It generates a lot of misinformation that confuses issues rather clarifying them. There is a lot of misinformation out there and it is not easy to sieve through.

While I stuck my hand up in defence of the medical system, that does not mean I am not critical of certain aspects of it. Most people probably have a ‘horror story’ to tell and I am no exception. Yet if all we hear are the negative stories, then it paints an unbalanced picture and that’s not fair. GPs vary in their abilities. They are like mechanics – when you find a good one you stick with them. I also have no hesitation in recommending people seek a second or even third opinion where they feel the particular practioner is not helping. That goes for specialists as well, where I consider it is even more important to shop around for someone with an established reputation for being effective and conservative (explores other options before invasive treatments like surgery). I won’t even start on the corruption and abuse of power at high levels to the detriment of everyday people.


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## cement (Jan 15, 2018)

If you read the book I mentioned, I guess you realise that causative factors are multiple. Because an individual large organism, as complex as a human being, is exactly that, an individual. We are governed by (react a certain way to different chemicals etc) such things as genetic differences, environmental differences (diet, lifestyle, habitat), wether we are male or female, even right down to way we enter the world, ie natural birth or caesarian.
Not to mention the multi faceted society we live in and how that is run. Yes there is a lot of misinformation, the author of this book does a brilliant job sifting through it for us. Most of the misinformation unfortunately, comes from the very people who are directly responsible for state, country ,world health. 

In an earlier post I was told I was misinformed about liver function testing, and was given details about just how good the testing really is. Then I was told that physical screening was just to complicated to be worth doing.... I find this slightly contradictory. Because though you mentioned some obvious simple facts about our livers, the main function of the liver is detoxification (immunity and digestion as well). But, seeing a liver function test is done simply from blood samples, would not this be the easiest and simplest way to do a check to see if our main organ that will be dealing with the poison that we receive, can take it?? If the test is so complete as you say it is, surely it would be good enough.

Anyway..... immunisation aside, it's not the only factor no matter how small, that we are become more and more prone to worsening allergies, increased auto-immune disease, more rates of cancer, or more obese, or hammered by type 2 diabetes. The point is, every thing is intrinsically linked in this world, if you are genuinely interested in how it works and fits together, and the history of how it came about, take a look at that book. It explains a lot, and when you get the picture, you may even understand how you can avoid becoming one of these statistics, or if you already are one, a way of at least achieving better quality of life, putting yourself into remission, maybe even outright cure.

Our friend denied her two boys whooping cough vaccine.


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## sp.michael (Jan 16, 2018)

Liver function is unimportant to vaccination, the majority of ingredients within a vaccine are metabolised elsewhere. Individuals suffering from chronic liver disease are advised to take vaccines to reduce the risk of additional diseases when having a compromised immune system. And it is undeniable that vaccines have saved millions of lives globally, that clean living and washing hands otherwise wouldn't. Measles, smallpox, muphs, polio, tb, all basically non-existent with the aid of vaccines. In any case, the majority of side effects from vaccines occur from allergic reactions to gelatin, with 3 in 10,000 experiencing some side effect and one in two million having severe reactions such as anaphylaxis.


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## cement (Jan 16, 2018)

So what your saying is that if you have a long term (chronic) liver disease, and a compromised immunity system, you would allow yourself to be pumped with not just one but many different vaccines?

read the conclusion to this paper.
http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?gm06043

You are getting way off track and away from the point.

I think the liver is the only organ that can regenerate if its not to far gone, which is damn lucky.


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## sp.michael (Jan 16, 2018)

That paper itself states "There is little doubt that the benefits of the vaccine overall for [far] outweigh its risks (9)". Showing that the authors concluded, even after finding these results, that it was worthwhile to be taking the vaccine. Further that paper only follows one individual, not exactly a valid source to be deriving conclusions from.


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## cement (Jan 17, 2018)

The point your missing is that I have never said anything about wether vaccines work or not. It also says this. 

"In conclusion, it is prudent to keep in mind that hepatitis B vaccine can be responsible for the hepatotoxicity."

* Definition -Hepatotoxicity* (from hepatic toxicity) implies chemical-driven liver damage. Drug-induced liver injury is a cause of acute and chronic liver disease.


Unless you just want to argue, simply answer my question. Would you personally feel comfortable taking multiple vaccinations (which are mostly serums carrying either dead or disabled cells of extremely dangerous bacteria or virus) at a time when your liver was barely functioning? OR your children?

We are amazed by the number of deaths per year by bees, but that number is minute to the number of deaths due to prescription drugs. Add to that the deaths related to overdose on prescription drugs. Now that is 'WOAH".


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## jahan (Jan 17, 2018)

Thankyou Cement. Will def get that book to read.. The medicine that caused his Kidneys to fail was prescribed to him by a Cardiologist. It was _Coversyl_ Plus. They told him the plus part of it that was the problem. He now takes Coversyl without the plus part. Vaccines are forced upon us by the Government by their no jab no play policy. I wonder how many of these refugees have been vaccinated, I doubt very much if any are and if the same appllies to them. The measles out brake that has been going around seems to be more on people that have been vaccinated than not. Same as flu vacs people that where vaccinated still got the flu.


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## cement (Jan 17, 2018)

Hey Jahan, 
Only the foreword at the beginning is written by a cardiologist, not the whole book. It's written by a women who was struck down by a kidney disease and eventually got a transplant. This is a quote from his foreword, "there is a lot of books on the market telling us what is wrong with our health and giving us a variety of solutions, but Louise Stephen explains why we are where we are: historically, politically and scientifically. In "eating ourselves sick", she clearly explains the vested interests of money and power operating in many spheres of health, and how these vested interests are often part of the reason we have the extraordinary burden of chronic disease we are now seeing in our modern society.'


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## jahan (Jan 18, 2018)

Ok Thanks Cement.


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## cement (Jan 23, 2018)

turnbull-pushes-mandatory-vaccination-rollout-but-has-lucrative-shares-in-big-pharma

Woah! I had no idea. Interesting part by the immunologist toward the end.


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## jahan (Jan 24, 2018)

That was a great read Cement. "It has been documented that vaccinated persons who develop breakthrough measles are contagious. In fact, two major measles outbreaks in 2011 (in Quebec, Canada, and in New York, NY) were re-imported by previously vaccinated individuals.[6] – [7]" I wasn`t far out. I`m sure there`s alot of haters out there that would differ. Turnbull should of stood down. We only have a vote in elections to give the public the thought that they had a say in things and the outcome is already predetermind in their favor.


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## cement (Jan 25, 2018)

@jahan ,

It is a good read isn't it mate. Well researched, well documented, the history behind our society and why we are where we are. 
This is an interesting website for anyone who wants to be informed about wether or not to vaccinate themselves or their kids. I'm not advocating anything, one way or the other, I just think its important to have information at hand so we can make an informed choice. Don't worry about the haters, there generally uninformed people who simply believe and follow on what they are told or what they hear, plus they have the right to pump themselves full of whatever they want, if they want

https://avn.org.au
I have to admit, I was sceptical about this website before I checked it out. But now I'm wishing it had been around 27 years ago, when vaccines were pushed on me and my missus, and our kids.


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