# "golden lined" bhp on herp trader??



## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 28, 2010)

Troy just called me about a "golden lined" bhp that is currently for sale on herp trader, does anyone know who this seller is (pm please). It is not my animal, I didn't produce this animal and by the looks of the image posted there is no gold present on this animal! Christ it bugs me when people label animals as something they are By all indications from the images certainly not!

Thanks guys
Den


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## Bec137 (Feb 28, 2010)

I saw that too. I don't know much about BHPs, is that a good looking animal or an average one? What is a gold lined one if that isnt on?


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## The Reptile Outlet (Feb 28, 2010)

LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/white-girl-offspring-gold-line-128259

Hi Bec 
If you have a look at the above link, you'll see some 'Gold Line' BHP hatchies that Den has produced this last season. I'm sure that Denver will elaborate further himself tomorrow, when he gets back online again.

cheers
Joy


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## Ramsayi (Feb 28, 2010)

Sorry but this is exact;y the reason breeders shouldn't put fancy names on their animals in the first place.

If I get what you are peeved about it is the fact that they are using the term "gold lined" on the ad and somehow you think that the term is owned by you?

I honestly think you are much better calling them what they are,Qld,NT bhps etc and letting their quality speak for itself..


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## Bec137 (Feb 28, 2010)

Wow, I bet those babies are worth a small fortune, they are beatiful. So is the one on HerpTrader is a low quality one then? It looks to me like all that dark colour blocks out the stripes and that wouldnt be a good thing, I don't know. Like I said, I know nothing about BHPs.


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## wranga (Feb 28, 2010)

dont understand why your getting so worked up over this so called gold line. it seems to be the lastest fad to make some special name up so as to sell something for a higher price. i say unlucky for the stupid buyer if their not smart enough to research the line or the breeder before handing over their money


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## zulu (Mar 1, 2010)

*re "golden*

"Great markings as per photo" " Beautiful Creature" i thought it was Jenniffer Hawkins and its a bhp


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## Australis (Mar 1, 2010)

Wow, thats one trick BHP.


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## carpetmuncher (Mar 1, 2010)

Ramsayi said:


> Sorry but this is exact;y the reason breeders shouldn't put fancy names on their animals in the first place.
> 
> and somehow you think that the term is owned by you?


 
i agree with your point 100%.

but what we have here appears to be someone trying to cash in by inferring the animal has come from a quality breeder. i can understand den's anger, but as you point out, the term's available for anyone to use.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 1, 2010)

carpetmucher said:


> i agree with your point 100%.
> 
> but what we have here appears to be someone trying to cash in by inferring the animal has come from a quality breeder. i can understand den's anger, but as you point out, the term's available for anyone to use.



Not much difference than using the term "blond mac" for any mac that is even the a slightly bit lighter than any bog standard mac.That term was coined for some light coloured macs that originally came from the Cooktown area.


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## carpetmuncher (Mar 1, 2010)

i had come to the conclusion that 'blond mac' meant 'bog standard mac'. in fact, i thought the people referring to their animals as 'blond' were being honest and telling you that they were poor quality.


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## ShadowDragon (Mar 1, 2010)

Ramsayi said:


> Sorry but this is exact;y the reason breeders shouldn't put fancy names on their animals in the first place.
> 
> If I get what you are peeved about it is the fact that they are using the term "gold lined" on the ad and somehow you think that the term is owned by you?
> 
> I honestly think you are much better calling them what they are,Qld,NT bhps etc and letting their quality speak for itself..


 I agree 100%


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## zulu (Mar 1, 2010)

*re "golden*



Ramsayi said:


> Sorry but this is exact;y the reason breeders shouldn't put fancy names on their animals in the first place.
> 
> If I get what you are peeved about it is the fact that they are using the term "gold lined" on the ad and somehow you think that the term is owned by you?
> 
> I honestly think you are much better calling them what they are,Qld,NT bhps etc and letting their quality speak for itself..



Come on Rams,your bhps wont never make it in show business with names like NT and QLD,its just not descriptive enough,i say teach them to dance and sing black face, AAAAAAHHHAAAAA the AL Jolson line black heads RAMs,youll clean up at the homebush show


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## Troy K. (Mar 1, 2010)

Ramsayi said:


> Sorry but this is exact;y the reason breeders shouldn't put fancy names on their animals in the first place.
> 
> If I get what you are peeved about it is the fact that they are using the term "gold lined" on the ad and somehow you think that the term is owned by you?
> 
> I honestly think you are much better calling them what they are,Qld,NT bhps etc and letting their quality speak for itself..



I understand what you are saying because I know of some breeders that put fancy names on snakes to try and get a few extra dollars, but what's wrong with labeling a snake with a name that better describes the snake? 

You sell Albino Darwins as Albino Darwins because that's what they are, we sell Gold Line BHP's because they have gold on them. 

Just by going back and looking at some of the photos that Den has posted, I'm sure that you can see that some of the animals that are being produced at the moment are no way your classic QLD or NT so why label them that?

Troy K


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## smeejason (Mar 1, 2010)

I own a qld BHP and one of Den's golden line and there is a big difference between the 2 and an even bigger difference between the one on herp trader and my boy.


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## da_donkey (Mar 1, 2010)

is the golden line the same or bred from the ocher ones that you had going Den?


donks


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## Retic (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree Troy, they are very special and deserve to be separated from the run of the mill. 



Troy K. said:


> I understand what you are saying because I know of some breeders that put fancy names on snakes to try and get a few extra dollars, but what's wrong with labeling a snake with a name that better describes the snake?
> 
> You sell Albino Darwins as Albino Darwins because that's what they are, we sell Gold Line BHP's because they have gold on them.
> 
> ...


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## yeldarb (Mar 1, 2010)

Den said:


> Troy just called me about a "golden lined" bhp that is currently for sale on herp trader, does anyone know who this seller is (pm please). It is not my animal, I didn't produce this animal and by the looks of the image posted there is no gold present on this animal! Christ it bugs me when people label animals as something they are by all indications from the images certainly not!


I find your reaction to this herp trader advert very strange. 

Not ounce has this seller referred to you or your linage of BHP. This seller has stated that this "Golden Lined" BHP is for sale. *QUOTE: HERP TRADER* "Golden Lined Black-headed Python 4yr old female. Great markings as per photos. Beautiful creature. Selling due to a change in work arrangements. Willing to freight at buyer's expense." *UNQUOTE.*

The seller has also supplied photographs for potential buyers to view. Yes i agree with you that this Advertised BHP from the pics does not show any signs of gold like what your "Gold Line" has, but they have not indicated that it is of your "Gold Line" Descent. They are simply selling it as a "Golden Lined" BHP.

as stated further down in this thread. 



Troy K. said:


> but what's wrong with labeling a snake with a name that better describes the snake?


To me this is what this seller has done, labeled a snake with a name that better describes the snake, to me it looks like it has vertical golden lines on it's body. 

I do not know the person selling this golden lined BHP on the herp trader, this is just my opinion. What I am saying is, some may call a snake as they see it. This owner see's his as a "Golden Lined" BHP, and you see yours as a "Gold Line". 

He is only asking $600 for his snake if he was intentionally trying to sell it as your "Gold Line" I would have thought he would have a much higher price on it and not supplied pictures.

Like you this person has taken the opportunity to market his BHP with a name that they think better describes it.

Cheers Brad


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm not sure what you're on about here Rams, are you having a shot at me for naming snakes? I'm not calling mine "Super enhanced lack of melanin Denver Blackheadeds" nor am I claiming all similar animals to be My Line.... I'm working on a line of BHPs that have gold on them.... Gold line BHPs. Quite simple to understand realy...
I couldn't care less if others are selling Gold animals, I was one of the first to mention that others have similar animals in both my S&T article and on multiple forums. My post was intended to find out if this person was selling this animal as a "Gold", with no gold present as that's what the photo seems to show.







I do see what you are saying yeldarb and I may have over reacted, the term "Golden Lined" just rang a few bells.

Donks, here is a link that explains the story.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...fusion-over-our-golds-and-others-ochres-91408


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## mungus (Mar 1, 2010)

What you will find Den is that your BHP's are extrodinary and quite beautiful.
By photo, the best I've seen.
You could basically name your price on a few of those hatchies - Quality always sells.
Therefore, this sort of success can get under some breeders skin, and with the $$$ falling out of some top end snakes - albino / het darwins , greens etc your BHP's are the next sure thing IMO.
Will you be bring some up to the Sydney expo ??
Cheers,
Aleks.


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## Retic (Mar 1, 2010)

There is little doubt they will be the next big thing, you really have to see them to believe how good they are.


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## lizardjasper (Mar 1, 2010)

So how much are true gold lines worth then, Den? How much are you selling yours for? How much should a regular QLD BHP be, without any stunning markings, and how much are calicos and whites?
In fact, what are the different names for all the BHPs out there, and how much is each type worth?


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## caustichumor (Mar 1, 2010)

A picture is worth a thousand words (or acronyms for that matter) I have never bought any animal based on a fancy title, However I think that Dens animals would sell out even if they where called Princess pink fairy line....


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## Boney (Mar 1, 2010)

as you said in your post 19# your intension was basicly to find out more about the animal in question . and at the start to find out who the seller is . please note on herptrader there is a contact seller button ,works real easy and the person selling it can give you the info needed im sure. very strange you have gone the long way around to find the info you need .


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## cris (Mar 1, 2010)

Can someone point out where the gold lines are on the snake?


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## caustichumor (Mar 1, 2010)

cris said:


> Can someone point out where the gold lines are on the snake?



It's like one of those 3D hidden pictures, you have to focus your eyes just right, and then the gold lines are right behind the sailing boat...


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## Ramsayi (Mar 1, 2010)

Den said:


> I'm not sure what you're on about here Rams, are you having a shot at me for naming snakes?



No I am not having a shot at you Den.In my reply I wrote "I honestly think you are much better calling them what they are,Qld,NT bhps etc and letting their quality speak for itself."

The point I am making is that you don't have to resort to putting fancy names on them.If you have developed a line that is different to others then perhaps call them Kuligowski line.


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 1, 2010)

lizardjasper said:


> So how much are true gold lines worth then, Den? How much are you selling yours for? How much should a regular QLD BHP be, without any stunning markings, and how much are calicos and whites?
> In fact, what are the different names for all the BHPs out there, and how much is each type worth?



Any animal is only worth what someones willing to pay for it regardless of how extraordinary the animals are the seller only knows there worth once they are actually sold, until then he can only place his personal value on them. Anyway I think there worth more than I can afford as they are absolutely awesome animals


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## chondrogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

Golds, ochres etc they are just normal bred BHP's with a bit of a deformality.
They have been randomly produced for years from mating 2 natural looking animals. Even in overseas collections they have produced some of these "non new line" animals


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## shane14 (Mar 1, 2010)

link?


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## The Reptile Outlet (Mar 1, 2010)

......


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## Jonno from ERD (Mar 1, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> Golds, ochres etc they are just normal bred BHP's with a bit of a deformality.
> They have been randomly produced for years from mating 2 natural looking animals. Even in overseas collections they have produced some of these "non new line" animals



Yeah mate...just normal BHP's with a bit of a "deformality". 

What sort of proof do some of you guys need that these snakes are consistently throwing offspring that are vastly different to standard animals - which in my mind constitutes a distinct "line"!


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## No-two (Mar 1, 2010)

Those animals are crackers, I'd happily buy some like that and I'm certainly not big on bhps, took me over 5 years to bother getting some, and I'm still not phased over mine, which aren't bad as far as bhps go :|


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## mungus (Mar 1, 2010)

Fark......just picking up my jaw from the ground...............:shock:
I'll be up your way in a week fly fishing Hervey bay for goldens etc.
Can take them off your hands for a small fee Johno.............:lol:
Surely cant keep all of them...........:lol::lol:


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 1, 2010)

Haha Chondrogreen, I'll never be dealing with you. Thanks Jonno. 

No worries Rams, sorry thought you were having a shot at me mate. Yeah i can't call them after myself as my line trace back to Kel Worley and a few others have popped up in the past, I've just refined what I had to work with. I have a fair few different projects here in the way of BHPs, I have to give them a descriptive terms that suit or else Myself and others wouldn't be able to keep track on individual lines. They are all from various QLD locales. I find the term 'Gold' easy and descriptive and helps to narrow down the many QLD lines i have.

Thanks Aleks. No I won't get a chance to make any expos, my new Son gets whatever spare time i have... Babies are funny little buggers

Thanks for the back-up guys, heaps appreciated. A mate has found the seller's details. In retrospect it's no big deal, was just interested in knowing what the go was with the add. 

Will be in touch Rob
Ta guys.

Den


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 1, 2010)

Updated pics guys, the colours are getting stronger each week!... Only a handfull of close people have seen these animals in the flesh.

The only spanner in the whole name saga is that with each generation the colours intensify, the Gold is now nearly Red! Maybe the colour will fade back to the adult Gold colouration in this latest season's offspring... Who knows.


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## Scleropages (Mar 1, 2010)

You sure it isen't just someone who brought some of your orcha line? arnt they the "gold" line?

Hold on don't I have a pr of "gold line" or are the orcha and gold lines diff?


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 1, 2010)

Read the post for Donks, the link explains that situation. Or I'll explain it to you when I bring my rum can into your shop next...


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## Retic (Mar 1, 2010)

They are just outrageous Den, even someone with one good eye can see they are something very very special.


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## Scleropages (Mar 1, 2010)

Den said:


> Read the post for Donks, the link explains that situation. Or I'll explain it to you when I bring my rum can into your shop next...


 
Yer explain in person I not reel good at reading words!Bring in a dead gold line and we will feed it to the shark


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## waruikazi (Mar 1, 2010)

boa said:


> They are just outrageous Den, even someone with one good eye can see they are something very very special.



Special as in special school like retarded? Maybe they could be called 'Timmah!!' line?


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## smeejason (Mar 1, 2010)

hope they are the pics you were going to send for me to pick from:lol:
I will just take whichever one of those you think is good enough :lol::lol:
As i said before...... awesome Den


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## kupper (Mar 1, 2010)

Dens line of BHPS are not the run of the mill qld or by bhps and it is one of the only things I will agree with having names coined for 

That animal is clearly not one of yours den and I think this is just a case of a one animal owner making up something out of nothing


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## azn4114 (Mar 1, 2010)

denver i thought the girl i bought off you was a good looker but damn that new line is absolutely awesome,your doing some great work mate


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## chondrogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

Den said:


> Haha Chondrogreen, I'll never be dealing with you.


 
Wow, thats a damn shame.
Does my oppinion really offend you that much?

Anyway, just a question...Do you deny that ochres, or goldens or whatever you want to call them are produced randomly from 2 normal looking animals? and it is happening not just in Aus but also overseas?


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 1, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> Wow, thats a damn shame.
> My opinion ofends you that much?
> 
> Anyway, just a question though...Do you deny that ochres, or goldens or whatever you want to call them are produced randomly from 2 normal looking animals? and it is happening not just in Aus but also overseas?




Haha, everyone who has major interest in these kind of animals know what is going on overseas. And the majority of any new line are the progeny of seemingly normal parents, these are being line bred to enhance specific traits....


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## Southside Morelia (Mar 1, 2010)

Hey Den, how are you???
mate those animals are coming along just fine....:shock:8)
Will talk with you soon.
Keep us all posted....the ones that are interested anyways!!


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## chondrogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

So you are working with them atm, but what makes them "your new line" defined from any other BHP on the market at the moment (ochres included)

Have you line bred more then 4 generations back to back and confirmed that the trait is recessive and soley yours to name "gold"?


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## mrs_davo (Mar 1, 2010)

Hey Guys & Girls maybe you should enquire the original question to the seller. I saw this ad myself & thought the snake was about to shed when photo was taken.
It may well be a Golden Line BHP, but of lesser quality than Denvers. Not all snakes bred from a paticular line hold good colouration.
Give the person a break & don't stress out, this may well be a Golden Line, either in shed or not the brightest colour. If it is what is said to be then buy it at cheap price & breed with it or shut up & buy one of Denvers.

Just my thoughts
Ian Davo:x


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## longqi (Mar 1, 2010)

*Blacks*

So where would these fit into the scheme of things??


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## cris (Mar 1, 2010)

caustichumor said:


> It's like one of those 3D hidden pictures, you have to focus your eyes just right, and then the gold lines are right behind the sailing boat...



Im thinking more that you would need to have a swig of acid and smoke a mixture of DMT and PCP while licking toads :lol:


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## morgs202 (Mar 1, 2010)

longqi said:


> So where would these fit into the scheme of things??


 
In my house? This thread has seriously made me want a BHP even more!


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## waruikazi (Mar 1, 2010)

longqi said:


> So where would these fit into the scheme of things??



Somewhere between ur nose and navel.


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## mrs_davo (Mar 1, 2010)

For those that can make it to QLD Reptile Expo, I will or hope to have on display at expo 2 to 3 Golden line or originaly called Ochre Chin line. Bred from Kel Worley same as Denvers original line.
Whowever I have not had the oportunity to breed them yet, So as older animals 2.5 yrs they will not show same bright colours as Denvers young he bred & posted photos. But they are what they are & that comes from the same original lines as Denvers.

Hope to see you there.
Ian Davo.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 1, 2010)

I am giving the guy a break Ian, this thread just seemed to blow up. 

Chondro I never said anything about recessive nor have I mentioned "my new line". You obviously have no idea and are keen to, well, I have no idea what your go is.

I now see why seasoned keepers are shying away from forums.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

Den said:


> Chondro I never said anything about recessive nor have I mentioned "my new line".


 
Sorry Den it was everyone else referring to them as "your line".
And as you never corrected them I figured you must have agreed.

But if you are saying they are not proven to be recessive nor have they been multi generation bred yet nor are referred to by yourself as your line, then I guess we are in agreeance.  Simple mutations from normal parentage (untill proven otherwise) Although I understand you are workign with them and will see what the future holds.




Jonno from ERD said:


> What sort of proof do some of you guys need that these snakes are consistently throwing offspring that are vastly different to standard animals - which in my mind constitutes a distinct "line"!


 
Thats funny Johnno, because Den himself agreed above that these weird lookign BHP's are produced elsewhere (in Aus and overseas) so what defines these so called golds from any other gold, orange chin or ochre produced BHP hatchling? I understand he is working with them now and hoping to produce consistantly (congrats to Den for his efforts) but what ATM in the short term of working with them makes his animals any different from the other morphs (comparing his so called golden to a so called ochre for example)


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## waruikazi (Mar 1, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> Thats funny Johnno, because Den himself agreed above that these weird lookign BHP's are produced elsewhere (in Aus and overseas) so what defines these so called golds from any other gold, orange chin or ochre produced BHP hatchling? I understand he is working with them now and hoping to produce consistantly (congrats to Den for his efforts) but what ATM in the short term of working with them makes his animals any different from the other morphs (comparing his so called golden to a so called ochre for example)



That is the question being thrown at you Chondro. What do you need as proof that they are a distinct line?


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## chondrogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

Proof would mean that they have been multi generation bred and proven as distinct in each consecutive clutch (IMO 4 gens to determin recessiveness, 4 gens of enhanced line breeding for specific trait etc) then you have the right to title them as your own. Seems everyone has their own lines these days including all those first time breeders. Honey jungles were one of Dolittles first clutches 

Considering many others have purchased a pair of BHP and produced these so called goldens & ochres I dont see how they can be anyones line YET. I see the future looks great for Dens project but atm there is nothing definative from his so called goldens to Kel Worleys so called ochers (but I realise he also has other nice animals to use in the project so the future will surely differ for Den)

JMO


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 1, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> Sorry Den it was everyone else referring to them as "your line".
> And as you never corrected them I figured you must have agreed.
> 
> But if you are saying they are not proven to be recessive nor have they been multi generation bred yet nor are referred to by yourself as your line, then I guess we are in agreeance.  Simple mutations from normal parentage (untill proven otherwise) Although I understand you are workign with them and will see what the future holds.
> ...


Mate, give it a break.

I have done F1 backcrosses, Gold to Gold matings and have outcrossed Gold animals to other QLD BHPs. The animals pictured are the results of multi gen breeding. 

Gold and ochre thing explained here...
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...fusion-over-our-golds-and-others-ochres-91408

If you want even more info on these animals refer to the article I wrote in Scales and Tails Issue one. Obviously you either have an issue with me or are bored, either way I'm over answering your questions.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

No problem with you or your animals Den.
Just finding it hard to understand your position when your answers are all over the place. You refer to them as "your line" in some posts but then state in others that you don't. I am curious if you refer to them as your specific bloodlines OR as simply BHP's with gold on them?

In the link you posted you stated that the difference between your so called golds and Worleys so called ochres you can not answer. Why is this? surely if yours are multi gen specific trait bearing specimens they would differ yeah? (Unless you are yet to establish that yet)

You also admit there is nothing special with specks of gold (obviously as these are produced randomly) So I take it that its future generations you are hoping to improve obviously?

You also admit to not knowing whether the trait is recessive or co-dom (obviously need more time producing them) So you are yet to determin what/how your animals produce yea?

And you agree that there are more of these around then people think including wild caught specimens and you also agree that they are randomly produced in some collections from normal pairings. So what makes "your golds" currently differ from those? other then being able to track their parentage since being in your possesion?

You have also stated "once the line is proven you will have no prob with people putting a higher price on them if they can garuntee their linage". So has "your line" been proven yet? and if not then what exactly is your line producing? and what determins it as a new line at all?


Don't mistake my enquiries as attacks please. They are pretty fair questions IMO


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## mrs_davo (Mar 1, 2010)

Thats good to clear that up Denver & give people the history behind the breed. As there is so much interest in the subject, & I know you guys have run an article in scales & tails, I think the first mag you produced, Maybe another outlining the full history of the breed & where it may go from here.

To Chondroman ,
All is fine to have scientific proof, but give it a break. Here are people working to improve a strain of animal that shows more apealing colours than the norm. I know for a fact that I would rather have a so called Golden line than a QLD BHP.

Regards 
Ian Davo.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 1, 2010)

I dont have access to the article or magazine so sorry if my enquiries are aimed at the breeder directly.

I asked a few questions for my own curiosity. No big deal (atleast I don't think so). 
If Den choses to answer them for me sweet, and if he choses to ignore them I will let it go no worries. Either way I am not arguing. I just fail to see a few facts in a few statements and would like them cleared up.


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## ShadowDragon (Mar 1, 2010)

ian_davo said:


> I know for a fact that I would rather have a so called Golden line than a QLD BHP.


Well isn't it going to be mighty disappointing when it turns out your Golden Idol, oh I mean BHP, is indeed a QLD BHP.

Just on the QT.


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## PilbaraPythons (Mar 1, 2010)

I really don’t see a problem with putting your hand up and saying this is now my line if the results speak for themselves. Those BHPs of Denver's are indeed different than anyone else so far has produced.
In earlier days many people reptiles were commonly referred to as their line e.g. Peter Krauss’s jungles and especially if they had a reputation for regular supply. This didn’t necessarily mean that there was any major thought to enhancing some newly discovered trait. 
I also see no problem in coming up with name tags that best describe its colouration, yes, even honey jungles, if the colouration is the colour of honey. Sure you will get the odd clown that will run with a tag just to sell an animal but who buys a snake without at least looking at a pic of it in the first place?


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## melgalea (Mar 1, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> No problem with you or your animals Den.
> Just finding it hard to understand your position when your answers are all over the place. You refer to them as "your line" in some posts but then state in others that you don't. I am curious if you refer to them as your specific bloodlines OR as simply BHP's with gold on them?



In all honesty, Denver doesnt have to answer all your questions, he knows what his bhp's are, and doesnt have to justify it to you or to anyone else. if u knew the hard work that he has put into the line that he is developing and working with then maybe you would understand a little more. ....
cheers
mel


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## zulu (Mar 1, 2010)

PilbaraPythons said:


> I really don’t see a problem with putting your hand up and saying this is now my line if the results speak for themselves. Those BHPs of Denver's are indeed different than anyone else so far has produced.
> In earlier days many people reptiles were commonly referred to as their line e.g. Peter Krauss’s jungles and especially if they had a reputation for regular supply. This didn’t necessarily mean that there was any major thought to enhancing some newly discovered trait.
> I also see no problem in coming up with name tags that best describe its colouration, yes, even honey jungles, if the colouration is the colour of honey. Sure you will get the odd clown that will run with a tag just to sell an animal but who buys a snake without at least looking at a pic of it in the first place?



Thats how it goes pilbarra,you can see what your getting anyway,its the ones with the stripe on top of the head i like,interesting and visually appealing!


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## dee4 (Mar 1, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> I dont have access to the article or magazine so sorry if my enquiries are aimed at the breeder directly.
> 
> I asked a few questions for my own curiosity. No big deal (atleast I don't think so).
> If Den choses to answer them for me sweet, and if he choses to ignore them I will let it go no worries. Either way I am not arguing. I just fail to see a few facts in a few statements and would like them cleared up.



Would you like a copy, I have a few spare. Pm your details and I'll shoot it off to you tomorrow.


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## Troy K. (Mar 2, 2010)

chondrogreen, when you are working on enhancing as many lines of bhp's as Denver is you have to understand that he needs to have names for them all for proper record keeping for the breeding programs that he has in place. Some of the lines already have names such as Hypos, Ghosts, Calicos ect. and others don't. 

He could just call them "QLD. female 145" and "QLD male 128" and not worry about sharing and showing his work on the open forums which is what a lot of the seasoned herpers seem to prefer. Instead he has decided to give some of these snakes a name which best describes them to let others in the hobby that are interested in some of the lines that he is working with know exactly where he is up to and what he is producing. 

Troy K


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## wranga (Mar 2, 2010)

maybe this is alittle over the top and im not sure if it can even be done, but maybe people could register the name of their line. if this could be done it would stop any argument as to whom owns this gold line or anyother name given to a line


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## Troy06 (Mar 2, 2010)

i think condrogreen is jelis lets see if condrogreen has any thing
as good as den if not no one cares what he has to say thay
are top BHP pics speak for them selves have a nice day


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## mungus (Mar 2, 2010)

Troy K. said:


> chondrogreen, when you are working on enhancing as many lines of bhp's as Denver is you have to understand that he needs to have names for them all for proper record keeping for the breeding programs that he has in place. Some of the lines already have names such as Hypos, Ghosts, Calicos ect. and others don't.
> 
> He could just call them "QLD. female 145" and "QLD male 128" and not worry about sharing and showing his work on the open forums which is what a lot of the seasoned herpers seem to prefer. Instead he has decided to give some of these snakes a name which best describes them to let others in the hobby that are interested in some of the lines that he is working with know exactly where he is up to and what he is producing.
> 
> Troy K




Yep, just what we need, another experienced breeder
locking himself away and only giving info to close mates............
Thanks Chondrogreen, your a legend !!


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## gunny (Mar 2, 2010)

I dare say many bloodlines have been used to create these blackheadeds and Denver has selectively bred these till he has a bloodline he is now reproducing. Therefore it is his own line (bloodline) of blackheadeds. I have seen the "hypos being produced in the UK and they may have the reduced melanine on the heads but none have the strange patterning you see on Dens. An animal does not have to have some proven traits to make it your own bloodline there are many bloodlines of jungles around just check the for sale section none of these have any proven traits eg Krauss, Montgomery, Aland.


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## ozianimals (Mar 2, 2010)

No offense and not saying it is the case 
but the pics of the golden ones just look like a BHP x Woma........
Not saying thats what has happened but we all know that the demand in the industry is for something different and no matter who comes up with something different they will all deny this is how it came about.


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## ozianimals (Mar 2, 2010)

Troy06 said:


> i think condrogreen is jelis lets see if condrogreen has any thing
> as good as den if not no one cares what he has to say thay
> are top BHP pics speak for them selves have a nice day


 Think this statement is a little over the top. You don't have to have something special in your collection to know what you are talking about. Otherwise most people on these site are all hypocrits.................But knoweledge does not count when it comes to what a snake looks like and everyone here seems to be an expert............


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## chondrogreen (Mar 2, 2010)

Wow I must be jealous because I question "what makes them a new bloodline"

Den said above that he dosn't refer to them as his line (thats confusing)
He also stated that he couldn't or wouldn't differ between his or Worleys so called Ochres (no difference? from the same source?)
He also stated that the lines are not proven yet (so how can they be a line atm?)
He also stated he is unsure whether the trait is recessive or co-dom (wow looks like more work & time is needed).
He also stated that it is a common mutation in captivity & the wild (yet they are a special blood?).

So I question them as to what defines them as a new line and I am pinned as a trouble maker LMAO. As I said earlier I understand he is working with these as his project, but atm what exactly makes them HIS LINE or anything different from the hundreds of other orange patched BHP's produced ATM? Key words being AT THIS PRESENT TIME! 

Whats the opinion of all you experts? Can I buy 2 of lets just say the so called ochres and breed them and start claiming them to be MY SUNBURSTS seen as I produced them? What if I breed a couple clutches out crossing, inbreeding etc yet still do not get proven results can I then claim them as mine for my efforts anyway?

Enough said!
Agree to disagree blah blah yada yada
But what line is this from? Golden? Ochre? Sunburst? Tomato head? or is it impossible to destinguish them all from each other???


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## lizardjasper (Mar 2, 2010)

Any more photos?  I just love them!


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## Den from Den Pythons (Mar 2, 2010)

And he's off again... Ta for all the back-up peoples but forget about him, it's hard to compete with someone who know's more about your business and animals than you yourself do.

C-ya guys
Den


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## borntobnude (Mar 2, 2010)

Wow this is another happy thread with lots of grownup discussion ?
Den they are very nice snakes but having just purchased our first BHP i think its a it important to have a BH [black head] . the colours on the body are beautiful but in my eyes i just love the black head that goes with those stripes


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## chondrogreen (Mar 2, 2010)

So rather then answer my questions you take a stab at me?
Of course I don't know as much about your project then you do, I know very little because you refuse to answer me lol. It is pretty hard to be informed when you hide the facts from me mate.


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## ShadowDragon (Mar 2, 2010)

Agreed ChondroGreen.


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## kupper (Mar 2, 2010)

Projects and lineage are the buisness of the snakes owner not anyone elses , 
if den chooses to share so be it, quiet honestly for someone who wants answers your sure going about the wrong way to get them


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## Kurama (Mar 2, 2010)

Chondro, your questions have been answered.

All you need to do is read the thread...pretty sure you can manage that.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 2, 2010)

Ok well Kupper I will try to ask you properly. PLEASE explain to me (emphasis on please) on how a common mutation that is unproven & its genetics yet to be established becomes a NEW LINE???

Anyone here can feel free to answer me if they like. After all I am simply trying to learn more about the hobby, but Dens answers would be more warranted in this instance of course.




I have read the thread numerous times & I have pointed out the flaws & contradictions in the posts. How am I to establish an answer from contradictions? Only person who can answer my questions is Den himself. Everyone elses opinion is just that OPINION & HEARSAY not FACT.


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## dtulip10 (Mar 2, 2010)

chondro, get off your high horse. the amount of time and effort den troy and joy put into there reps and into our community i think they can have a name to them selves if need be, den is clearly one of the top black head breaders in the country and has some amazing animals that he produces.

and clearly its a friend of yours selling that snake on herptrader.


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## ShadowDragon (Mar 2, 2010)

dtulip10 said:


> and clearly its a friend of yours selling that snake on herptrader.


That's a bit of a stretch.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 2, 2010)

I dont know the person on herptrader sorry, and I am not on any high horse.
I am also NOT baggign Den or his animals out so I dont understand why so defensive (especially you flock of followers who this does not concern).
If anyone needs to get over it is those with the mob mentality here.
I have as much reason to ask questions here then anyone else does. 
But it seems pre aproval of questions asked seems to be in order here lol

It is all good mob. If he refuses to answer me that is fine. No need to get on teh defensive for HIS sake. I am sure he is big enough to reply to me himself


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## cris (Mar 2, 2010)

Wasnt the thread supposed to be about a magically invisable golden lined BHP, rather than Dens 'gold line'? 

Chondrogreen i dont see what you are trying to achieve? if someone breeds a nice line of snakes they can call it whatever they want, there are no laws about this. If you give snakes a stupid name and it isnt a joke you will look like an idiot. In this case i dont see how there is a problem calling a BHP line with a golden like colour on its head "gold line".


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## chondrogreen (Mar 2, 2010)

cris said:


> Wasnt the thread supposed to be about a magically invisable golden lined BHP, rather than Dens 'gold line'?
> 
> Chondrogreen i dont see what you are trying to achieve? if someone breeds a nice line of snakes they can call it whatever they want, there are no laws about this. If you give snakes a stupid name and it isnt a joke you will look like an idiot. In this case i dont see how there is a problem calling a BHP line with a golden like colour on its head "gold line".


 
I agree.
I was only asking what is it exactly that establishes these so called goldens as a new line or as his line. Whats to stop someone calling an Ochre a gold line? or any other randomly bred orange spot BHP a golden? I have read the posts by Den and by his own words (which I have re-said numerous times now) I don't understand how they can be a new bloodline ATM when they are still common, unproven & undestinguishable etc ATM. 

Feel free to educate me with facts guys.
And it would be nice if you could respond to me without agression, sarcasm or abuse.
If you feel I have the wrong idea on the subject then inform me with the truth


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## melgalea (Mar 2, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> I dont know the person on herptrader sorry, and I am not on any high horse.
> I am also NOT baggign Den or his animals out so I dont understand why so defensive (especially you flock of followers who this does not concern).
> If anyone needs to get over it is those with the mob mentality here.
> I have as much reason to ask questions here then anyone else does.
> ...



nawwww maybe your just upset that your not in his circle of friends that know what he is doing


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## ShadowDragon (Mar 2, 2010)

melgalea said:


> nawwww maybe your just upset that your not in his circle of friends that know what he is doing


 
That is hardly something to get upset about.

Nice snakes though.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 2, 2010)

Yea thats exactly it.
I am upset that he wont let me be a hanger onera and wont fill me in on his so called bloodlines (that are similar to many others randomly bred accidentally)


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## Colin (Mar 2, 2010)

come on guys and girls... I can understand people jumping in and defending there friends (I do that myself) but am starting to get the feel:ing that the thread is turning into a "lets get chondrogreen" and maybe should be closed for a while at least to let people calm down a little. 

sorry if Im jumping the gun here but would rather close it for a while than infract someone for something  cheers


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## Colin (Mar 3, 2010)

after looking at this thread again I feel its best left closed. to me it seemed like it was getting personal and some questions more like accusations and some replies getting heated and starting to get off topic.

whatever denver chooses to call these BHP's isn't whats really important... names are just names.. 
they are beautiful and impressive hatchies by the way.. thats whats important, cheers


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