# Anti Gay America, Rick Perry



## abnrmal91 (Dec 12, 2011)

I came across this earlier and it just made me angry. Rick Perry is a Presidental Candidate for America for 2012. He is a christian from Texas. He is a homophobic/anti gay candidate, he is using Christianity as an excuses to justify his harrasment/discrimination/vilification of gays. Rick Perry wore same jacket in anti-gay ad that Heath Ledger wore in Brokeback Mountain | Mail Online

I myself am not gay, but I fully support gays in their fight for equality. Still in this day and age they are treated like second class citizens. I can't understand why people can't get over what ever problems the may have and just except people as they are. 

I am also angry that in Australia which is meant to be a place of "multi-culture" our government won't grant equal rights to gays as everyone else. Everyone should be allowed to be happy, they shouldn't be punished for there sexual orientation.

I really hope that in the near future everyone can be treated fairly/equally irrellevant of their race/religion/sexual orientation. 

Cheers Daniel


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## Mattt (Dec 12, 2011)

I believe we're in a period that generations are going to look back on in a state of disgust. The fact that we deny citizens of others rights they receive at birth is shameful, and I don't know how what anyone does in the bedroom is anyone else's business to be honest.


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 12, 2011)

I really hope that today's gen Y (which I am a part of) can help change things for the better. I know people who are anti gay let alone gay marriage (generally aged between 35-60). I have asked them before (with No real response) if their son/daughter was to say they were gay, would they want them to be happy/support then. They would never answer, I always push the issue with these people. There reasoning is normally that marriage should be between a man & woman. I always ask why? To this day I have never had a good response other then based on their intolerant views (sometimes reasoned with religion, sometime just their stupidity)


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## Fuscus (Dec 12, 2011)

I've been following the American politic scene and the quality of candidate being offered by the GOP is quite scary. You would have thought that after Bush a minimal requirement for president would be to have an IQ greater than ones shoe size. However..


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## Wally (Dec 12, 2011)

These same people are fairly quiet on the sanctity of marriage when Hollywood celebs get married four or five times. But gee, we better not let the gay folk get married.


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## Trouble (Dec 12, 2011)

All I want to know is, where does it say (anywhere!) that marriage has to be between a man & a woman??
My dad is against gay marriage, and I asked him this question one day, and he just completely shut down - he didn't have an answer.

So, anyone that can answer me that, go ahead.
I'm all for gay marriage. Who are we to say who you can & can't marry? If a God had any problem with it, I'm sure he/she would've done something by now...


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## saximus (Dec 12, 2011)

Trouble said:


> All I want to know is, where does it say (anywhere!) that marriage has to be between a man & a woman??



Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death." 

^^ That's where Tameah. I think I should keep my comments about this to myself lest I earn myself some time in the sin bin but I saw that Rick Perry video for the first time today and I was appalled. The worst part is a good portion of Americans (the Bible Belt) agree with him.


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 12, 2011)

God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve * Zips flame suit up *


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## saximus (Dec 12, 2011)

That is unless you don't believe any God or gods created Adam, Eve or Steve...


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 12, 2011)

Well each to their own i suppose


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## mje772003 (Dec 12, 2011)

well unfortunately money talks in america the mormons know that well with proposition 8 if you want to know more go to youtube and look up the doco "8 the mormon proposition" it got me quite angry. Makes me think all religions are just tall poppy syndrome mongers


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## Jay84 (Dec 12, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve * Zips flame suit up *



**rollseyes**


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## Wally (Dec 12, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> * Zips flame suit up *



I guess it won't have sequins.


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## saximus (Dec 12, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Well each to their own i suppose



If only it were that simple. Unfortunately for these people it's more like "Each to their own as long as it aligns with what I believe and if not I'm going to create laws that stop you living your life the way you should be allowed to even though it has absolutely no effect on my life whatsoever".


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 12, 2011)

Very clever jay, you can roll your eyes


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## Jay84 (Dec 12, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Very clever jay, you can roll your eyes



**rollseyes again**

When decisions like this affect MY LIFE, then yes, i have every right to roll my eyes. Just like i have every right to marry the person i love!


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 12, 2011)

*facepalm* Jay, look i am not going to get into an argument on a reptile forum about this because this battle has been going on way too long and it is always same arguments used by both sides so i am done with this but yeah that is my opinion and many others i am sure


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## Jay84 (Dec 12, 2011)

You entered into the argument before i did lol

You're right, this battle has been going on way too long..... it shouldn't be a battle.


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## Darlyn (Dec 12, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Well each to their own i suppose



Ha ha, If it was each to their own the whole world would be gay : )


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## Australis (Dec 12, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Ha ha, If it was each to their own the whole world would be gay : )



I see what you did there


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 12, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Ha ha, If it was each to their own the whole world would be gay : )


Would fix our current population dillema


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## 10hcaro (Dec 12, 2011)

If anyone uses Leviticus as a justification of an anti-gay standpoint, I just ask "Oh, is it near the part which condemns shellfish consumption and clothing woven with two different fabrics?". That usually stumps them


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## Jay84 (Dec 12, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Would fix our current population dillema



Maybe being gay is your gods way of population control?


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## souldoubt (Dec 12, 2011)

I couldn't care less if someone is gay, I dont see why that should cause them to be treated any differently. I'm not entirely sure why they would want the right to marriage but I guess I'm just missing that human trait - which is funny since I seem to be the only one in my family who doesnt understand the significance of marriage. 
If a gay couple wants to get married then they should be able to, a perfect point was mentioned before about if people being married multiple times destroys the sanctity of marriage. I have heard some claim it's because there's a lot of infidelity in the gay community - like there isn't in the 'straight' community?

I think that such tripe (like "marriage should be between a man and a woman") is just because religion has told people that being gay is wrong for so long that this prejudice will always exist in a portion of society. I'm so over religion still affecting all of us - even those who dont believe in fairytales (this is my opinion - sorry if it offends any of the "believers" on the forum.

The gay community has my full support in their fight for equality.


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## Flaviruthless (Dec 13, 2011)

What does religion have to do with two people loving each other? I don't hear texts from "Breaking Dawn" by Stephanie Meyer being used in speeches about particle physics?


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## DarkDefender (Dec 13, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> I really hope that today's gen Y (which I am a part of) can help change things for the better. I know people who are anti gay let alone gay marriage (generally aged between 35-60). I have asked them before (with No real response) if their son/daughter was to say they were gay, would they want them to be happy/support then. They would never answer, I always push the issue with these people. There reasoning is normally that marriage should be between a man & woman. I always ask why? To this day I have never had a good response other then based on their intolerant views (sometimes reasoned with religion, sometime just their stupidity)



Or as Sidney Poitier says in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner "You are 30 years older than I am. You and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it's got to be. And not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs!"
He is talking in a different context but I think it can easily apply to this..


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## Snakewoman (Dec 13, 2011)

I have never heard a Christian give a proper reason why they don't think gays should be able to get married or be together at all. I've only ever seen them repeat what their church leaders have told them. The major problem is that most of these people don't question what they're told, they just blindly believe what they're told to. I've seen this many times myself since I had spent 7 years in different churches. I haven't seen that level of ignorance anywhere else before. It's very easy for people to condemn gays when they don't know any. Until someone close to them comes out they don't have to deal with it, so when they do reality hits them very hard. My brother is gay and mu mpther and I never had a problem with it. Anytime someone starts with that "It's a choice" crap we explain what my brother has gone through, if it was a choice he would have chosen to be straight so he wouldn't have to go through so much turmoil and put up with crap from ignorant people!


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 13, 2011)

Yup we christians are all ignorant people who only believe what we are told..


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## Snakewoman (Dec 13, 2011)

Sorry, but most of them do. I've seen it many times.


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## Flaviruthless (Dec 13, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Yup we christians are all ignorant people who only believe what we are told..



As long as it comes from the Bible...


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## souldoubt (Dec 13, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Yup we christians are all ignorant people who only believe what we are told..



Not with the purpose of starting an argument but would you like to give us an example of what you dont believe that a priest or other figures of faith have told you?

It's clear that the belief being gay is abnormal or wrong (although homosexual behavior occurs in the vast majority of species on the planet) has come from religious views, which really is a bunch of stuff that has been told to you - I mean there is no proof that these bible stories actually happened or that these bible quotes were ever said - theres no hard evidence so it requires faith.


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## vampstorso (Dec 13, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Very clever jay, you can roll your eyes



I would state it's a higher level of "clever" than your "Adam and Steve" comment...

Because...it's very "clever" to suggest people should live their lives based on a hateful little rhyme and all.


As for "population control", living a God free life (you know...like the one that accepts gays for the human beings they are and always will be) that allows for contraception solves that too! 

I find it most amusing most people who use slurs from the bible as rationing too their views, have likely never read it. And why may they pick and choose what parts too live by? Would you also like to see anyone who works on a Sunday stoned?


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 13, 2011)

Hey I'd want to be stoned if I had to work on Sunday......oh, you mean the other kind of stoned with rocks and stuff


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## D3pro (Dec 13, 2011)

I think there are a lot of wrongs in this world, but if you choose to be gay then it's your business. People need to stop forcing their agendas on others.


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 13, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve * Zips flame suit up *


Can I ask how old you are tekno? Do you have any kids?
As a human do you not feel empathy for your fellow mans (& woman's) suffering/injustice or does this injustice bring a smile to your face?

What I love is that the bible contradicts itself, the general message is be nice to others. However people us the bits they want to deny people their human rights. 

I will leave it at that for now, what I want to say would get me booted of APS.


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## slim6y (Dec 13, 2011)

I got a PM from mmafan with the title: I may be moving to New Zealand sooner than I thought.

"Former governor of Texas...now Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry....Is currently polling 3rd or 4th in the Republican presidential primary.


So yeah I may be leaving America shortly...."

Sorry mmafan if I put this out there and you didn't want me to - but I think you've highlighted a wonderful point. Americans DON'T have to put up with this rubbish! They have a choice, a freedom to move and a freedom to VOTE!

There are enough rednecks in America (and other countries) that would love to see the vote through - but, if you can start by getting the right people on the right side, there's no way on EARTH Prick Erry will get in to power!

"On 19 September 1893 the governor, Lord Glasgow, signed a new Electoral Act into law. As a result of this landmark legislation, New Zealand became the first self-governing country in the world in which all women had the right to vote in parliamentary elections."

It's not much different to that. And again, does NZ really have to lead the way with everything?

"Civil union has been legal in New Zealand since 26 April 2005. The Civil Union Act to establish the institution of civil union for same-sex and opposite-sex couples was passed by the Parliament on 9 December 2004."

Not to mention anti-nuclear stance etc etc... but that's off track. 

Now before everyone goes bashing up Christians because of their anti-gay stances - check again, it's a minority in some cases. In NZ, again, some of the biggest debate FOR civil unions came from Christian groups - now, this isn't my side of things (of course) but when you see that there is a majority of people out there, although slender as it is, any vote for is a good vote!

So - it is possible to get the voter to vote the right way... It's a matter of getting out there to make it HAPPEN!

By the way - here's how NZ parties voted for Civil Unions:

Party Voted For Voted Against
Labour Party 45 6
National Party 3 24
New Zealand First 1 12
ACT 5 4
Green Party 9 0
United Future 0 8
Progressive Party 2 0
Maori Party 0 1
Totals 65 55

Spot the Christian party.... 

Sorry - the formatting didn't work here - if you want to see the page Civil union in New Zealand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Labour was in power - so National would naturally vote against.


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## littlemay (Dec 13, 2011)

souldoubt said:


> I mean there is no proof that these bible stories actually happened or that these bible quotes were ever said - there's no hard evidence so it requires faith.



Hi, i'm not christian however i would be careful in saying these sorts of things; I study ancient history, particularly epigraphy and papyrology, and there is actually historical evidence for some of the happenings in the bible (not that they are recorded in anyway objectively of course). Not trying to be rude, just don't want brash comments stated in ignorance starting a fight =]


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## -Katana- (Dec 13, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve * Zips flame suit up *



I personally see being an ignorant bigot as being a greater sin than being gay.

Here I'll even quote your own fairy-tale back at you.

[h=4]Matthew 7[/h][h=5]Judging Others[/h] [SUP]1[/SUP] “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. [SUP]2[/SUP] For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. [SUP]3[/SUP] “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4[/SUP] How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? [SUP]5[/SUP] You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.


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## Fuscus (Dec 13, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> These same people are fairly quiet on the sanctity of marriage when Hollywood celebs get married four or five times. But gee, we better not let the gay folk get married.


Yeh well, Newt Gingrich Marraige (NG is the current GOP front runner, fortunately he appears unelectable )


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## Bel03 (Dec 13, 2011)

You would think that in the world we live, with all the many REAL problems we have, that this stupid argument would be dropped by now........i mean lets worry about the things that actually affect us as a whole.........who people go to bed with at night is really not one of them! A friend of mine lost her brother to suicide, he felt he couldnt stay here cause he was gay.........that is terrible! Why cant it be that easy to 'get rid' of the people causing REAL problems.......such as those who rape & hurt innocent babies........why cant we make things as hard for them as we do for people who are gay........they may decide this place is too hard for them to live in & do us all a favor! I would rather live in a street full of gay couples then live with most of the straight couples that i do!


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## starr9 (Dec 13, 2011)

Im all for it! I was with my ex (female also) for 3yrs and we had some problems with some ppl and how they felt with us but all in all most ppl treated us no different! Centerlink treated us in the same way they treat male, female realtionship's and this was over 7yrs ago. Now im with my partner (male) and we get the odd comment now and then "glad you got her to jump back over the other side of the fence!" each to there own!


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## Dragonwolf (Dec 13, 2011)

starr9 said:


> Im all for it! I was with my ex (female also) for 3yrs and we had some problems with some ppl and how they felt with us but all in all most ppl treated us no different! Centerlink treated us in the same way they treat male, female realtionship's and this was over 7yrs ago. Now im with my partner (male) and we get the odd comment now and then "glad you got her to jump back over the other side of the fence!" each to there own!



Starr9, this has always been my argument for the legal recognition of long term unions/marriage between all people - gay, straight, multicultural, defacto and all the other possible loving partnerships. Equal rights for all. And as for the jumping back over the fence comment - how ignorant!!! As if it has to be one or the other. I'm glad you and others in the same situation weathered the storm - I was never that brave . 

I was however lucky enough to be raised by parents who placed no weight whatsoever on a persons colour, creed, sexual preferance or social standing. An unusual thing for that era. Judge a person on their personal traits - are they good hearted, honest, hard working and individual.


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## -Katana- (Dec 13, 2011)

Keith Olbermann Speaks Out On Prop 8 - YouTube

The above is a clip of Keith Olbermann's commentary on the then proposed Prop. 8.
It is still applicable to gay people everywhere who are still denied their basic human rights.


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## Recharge (Dec 13, 2011)

saximus said:


> Leviticus 18:22:
> "You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
> 
> Leviticus 20:13:
> ...



it says lies, doesn't say they can't co-habitate, or get married or anything else, and even though it does have that written, it's still a 2000, year old book, (and part of the OLD testament, so not relevant in the new) 

and it's fine of you follow your religion and your beliefs in it, but when you start including it in our laws, then it's just not on any more.



littlemay said:


> Hi, i'm not christian however i would be careful in saying these sorts of things; I study ancient history, particularly epigraphy and papyrology, and there is actually historical evidence for some of the happenings in the bible (not that they are recorded in anyway objectively of course). Not trying to be rude, just don't want brash comments stated in ignorance starting a fight =]



10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus

oops! lol
there's a lot of reading about historical figures and religious that have a chilling similarity to Christianity, LONG before Christianity, to the point that much of it seems plagiarised to say the least, so no, I wouldn't go slamming the "ignorance" flag around too much, it's also WELL known that Christianity blatantly incorporated beliefs all over the place as they expanded across the globe, as a way to make it easier to persuade people to join, watered it down pretty nicely.

we already (supposedly) have separation of church and state, it's about time the law reflected this, so too should religious views in Government be stamped out.

I too have never heard a rational logical argument against gay marriage or being gay, and I've had many discussions over the years, "look the book says so!" heh


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## Kurto (Dec 13, 2011)

If 2 men or 2 women want to get it on..... whatever, who cares! 

What gets me is when they want to raise a family? how can a same sex relationship raise a generation of children??

Sometimes I wish I was born 600 years ago.. people didn't live long enough to face these issues, and if you did try to raise an issue.. you got your head cut off!


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## -Katana- (Dec 13, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> I came across this earlier and it just made me angry. Rick Perry is a Presidental Candidate for America for 2012. He is a christian from Texas. He is a homophobic/anti gay candidate, he is using Christianity as an excuses to justify his harrasment/discrimination/vilification of gays. Rick Perry wore same jacket in anti-gay ad that Heath Ledger wore in Brokeback Mountain | Mail Online
> 
> I myself am not gay, but I fully support gays in their fight for equality. Still in this day and age they are treated like second class citizens. I can't understand why people can't get over what ever problems the may have and just except people as they are.
> 
> ...




The only way to respond to such abject drivel is with derision and contempt and, given the right treatment, it's pure comedy gold!

Jesus Responds to Rick Perry's "Strong" Ad from DC Pierson, Ryan Perez, Funny Or Die, BoTown Sound, and Alex Richanbach


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## Recharge (Dec 13, 2011)

> how can a same sex relationship raise a generation of children??


so I take it you haven't seen the hundred odd studies from around the world, the longest being 60 something years, that all seem to find there is virtually no difference to the outcome of a child being raised in a gay relationship? no? tsk tsk.

humans are very adaptable, we're a very hardy species, go educate yourself.


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## Jay84 (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't think these judgemental people realise how much they affect others lives by their ignorant opinions. 

Here are a couple of vidoes for you to watch. The first one i have posted before, it goes for about 12 minutes but PLEASE watch till the end. For all you haters, please, after watching this, tell me how you fee.

Joel Burns tells gay teens "it gets better" http://www.joelburns.com - YouTube

What an amazing boy this is. To publicly defend a teacher, who was SUSPENDED FOR ASKING A STUDENT TO LEAVE HIS CLASS AFTER MAKING HOMOPHOBIC COMMENTS!

Ellen DeGeneres Talks To Extremely Inspiring 14-Year-Old Graeme Taylor - YouTube

Another great video, very inspirational. Just goes to show that gay parents are more than capable of raising amazing, adjusted, open minded children.

Zach Wahls Speaks About Family - YouTube



Kurto said:


> What gets me is when they want to raise a family? how can a same sex relationship raise a generation of children??



Please watch the video i just posted


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## Bel03 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kurto said:


> What gets me is when they want to raise a family? how can a same sex relationship raise a generation of children??




Easily, they can even do it better then many of the straight parents i know! There are many many straight couples out there who should never have been aloud to breed! Being a good parent comes down to those who can raise children to be themselves, those who raise their children in loving caring homes.......it has nothing to do with who you sleep with!


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## Jay84 (Dec 13, 2011)

This is what happens when there is no equality. It breeds prejudice, it breeds hate.

Ellen DeGeneres on 15-year-old boy, Larry King, killed for being Gay - YouTube


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## vampstorso (Dec 13, 2011)

Same sex couples have to actively seek and work so hard for the right too raise children...

Yet straight people can just have sex with absolutely anyone...and a baby is made.

And you feel gays are the incapable ones? Yeah 'cause people who had to think incredibly hard about their desire for children and fight with the entire world about why their capable to raise children, are definitively the ones likely to neglect them!
That's completely illogical.


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## Kurto (Dec 13, 2011)

Having an opinion does not make me ignorant.

Thinking I'm ignorant because I'm not agreeing with you is why this argument will always keeping ticking over.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 13, 2011)

please dont get me wrong, but i really couldnt care less if someone is gay, straight, bi whatever. and i dont care who has the right to be married or not. there are so many bigger issues we should be worrried about. I also dont get why the government doesnt allow gay marriage. It seems to me that people that have fought so long for a right arent going to make any more of a joke out of marriage than it already is. 

Maybe we should abolish marriage instead of choosing who gets to and who doesnt get to.


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## Jay84 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kurto said:


> Having an opinion does not make me ignorant.
> 
> Thinking I'm ignorant because I'm not agreeing with you is why this argument will always keeping ticking over.



Kurto, please don't think I am of the opinion you are ignorant. 

Did you watch the video I posted? What did you think?


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## Kurto (Dec 13, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Kurto, please don't think I am of the opinion you are ignorant.
> 
> Did you watch the video I posted? What did you think?



I am interested Jay, I will watch them a little later when I'm not in the office.


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## Recharge (Dec 13, 2011)

Kurto said:


> Having an opinion does not make me ignorant.
> 
> Thinking I'm ignorant because I'm not agreeing with you is why this argument will always keeping ticking over.



no, the fact people who are against it in general, can't come up with a clear, concise, logical and valid reason(s) is the why it keeps ticking over (and makes it ignorant), it's fine to have your beliefs, but when it effects other consenting adults, for silly and ridiculous reasons. (omg you'll make the whole world gay end end humanity!! and omg think of the children!!) makes me laugh and laugh and then angry.
you're quite welcome to have your own reasons and beliefs, but when it effects others with no rationality, it's not on.


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## -Katana- (Dec 13, 2011)

Kurto said:


> If 2 men or 2 women want to get it on..... whatever, who cares!
> 
> What gets me is when they want to raise a family? how can a same sex relationship raise a generation of children??
> 
> *Sometimes I wish I was born 600 years ago.. people didn't live long enough to face these issues, and if you did try to raise an issue.. you got your head cut off!*





Gee, I dunno Kurto, the above bolded statement seems pretty freakin' ignorant to me.


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## Colin (Dec 13, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Yup we christians are all ignorant people who only believe what we are told..



I'm not gay but have friends who are and will stand up for them and their rights. in reference to your adam & eve & steve comment earlier.. "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (by command of jesus son of god) so why are christians so "unchristian like" against gays? 

and why has there been so many cases of gods representatives on earth (ordained ministers) committing child abuse and paedophilia (mostly gay acts too) and when found out the church seems to turn a blind eye and pay the victim and their family money to be quiet? 

I'm not trying to be offensive to christians or disrespect their beleifs.. but I also beleive they should be more tolerant, less judgmental and more christian like to others 

SQLFusion - Vatican calls for continuous prayer to rid Church of paedophilia


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## Kurto (Dec 13, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Gee, I dunno Kurto, the above bolded statement seems pretty freakin' ignorant to me.




Yes. It was. But it made for an easy resolve.


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## littlemay (Dec 13, 2011)

Recharge said:


> 10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus
> 
> oops! lol
> there's a lot of reading about historical figures and religious that have a chilling similarity to Christianity, LONG before Christianity, to the point that much of it seems plagiarised to say the least, so no, I wouldn't go slamming the "ignorance" flag around too much, it's also WELL known that Christianity blatantly incorporated beliefs all over the place as they expanded across the globe, as a way to make it easier to persuade people to join, watered it down pretty nicely.



I am well aware of these things, i study ancient history remember, this includes ancient mythology. However, i fail to see how any of this is relevant to my post...? I never claimed that christ was a historical figure or that the bible should be taken as historical fact; i merely asserted that some events in the bible do in fact have a historical basis and that claiming otherwise out of ignorance can lead to unnecessary arguements.


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## waruikazi (Dec 13, 2011)

Ergh! I'm so sure there is leglislation both in our country and the US and most other developed nation that states in no uncertain terms that descrimination ilegal. 

I don't understand how this is allowed to continue. 

I mean seriously, you don't have to agree or support anyone that you don't want to. But you do need to give eneryone a fair go. 

And to all the haters, i'll be thinking of you when i go on a date tonight! 







Oh and just a heads up for Tekno and Kurto, Jay is like the incredible hulk of the gay world! He will put the smack down on anyone who takes him on!


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## Recharge (Dec 13, 2011)

colin, don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity  while they may be similar, they are worlds apart in core belief structure.


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## gillsy (Dec 13, 2011)

I am so over hearing about this... I wish the government would make a decision and move on. 

Jay sorry not saying either way, but I'm just over hearing about it. Particularly the guy that speaks about it on the 5pm 2DayFM news, he says it like if we don't get it our lives are destroyed. They're not, we have the right to live, have the right to have sex with who we want, to work without the fear of being decriminated... This is lucky compaired to alot of countries. I don't see all these "marriage equality" people even considering the stoning and jailing of poofs overseas.

Until then I will not vote against gay marriage (i had a think about what you said the other day Jay), but I will not support it or speak out for it. 

I've just started my Mardi Gras duties again for next year, and the amount of uproar of taking "Gay & Lesbian" out of the title of the parade was appalling and this year will be focused on Marriage Equality and I'm going to be so over it by the end.

Gay Guys particularly are some of the most racist and discriminatory people I know, and considering that we are already a minority group complaining of descrimination this makes me sick.


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## PythonLegs (Dec 13, 2011)

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

Exodus 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.


Ahh, the bible. Always good for a chuckle. Hope they let me use the christianity defnce when I go on a killing spree at coles this sunday.


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## snakeluvver (Dec 13, 2011)

Im only a kid but I am totally against any anti-gay things. I dont see anything wrong with someone being gay, it doesnt make them a bad person. And the fact that guy in the first post is from texas says it all


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## Smithers (Dec 13, 2011)

Under Christianity banner we all have sin all sin is equal in the eyes of the lord, disobeying your parents,murder, and homosexuality are equal none are worse than the other in the eyes of the lord.

If you believe the religious fraction Jesus died for all our sins, which is the grace of god. God/Jesus see's all as equal and so should be treated. 

The Bible has been written by many a person over thousands of yrs it's not authored by just one and not even the top dog. 

Just as stories change in life today as each person tells it the same could be said for the bible, it's seems the fanatics pick and choose each part of the bible that suits their own agenda and not a wholistic approach to the word and meaning of Christianity. 

Which is treat all equal, love all equally and don't judge others as you are to be judge at the end of the day/life.

Jesus was silent on the subject of homosexuality. By the way. Go figure.


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## nathancl (Dec 13, 2011)

Jay, you, daniel, my mother and Keith have kind of changed my views on it all alot! but like Gillsy im so over hearing about it! I wish they would hurry up and get it done already! 

lol thats a big step there for my stubborn little self, admitting someone has changed my opinion on something.....bastards!


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## snakeluvver (Dec 13, 2011)

Smithers said:


> Under Christianity banner we all have sin all sin is equal in the yes of the lord, disobeying your parents,murder, and homosexuality are equal none are worse than the other in the eyes of the lord.
> 
> If you believe the religious fraction Jesus died for all our sins, which is the grace of god. God/Jesus see's all as equal and so should be treated.
> 
> ...


See, Christians who are homophobic just skip right over that and stick to some passage in the old testiment that says homosexuality is wrong. If anyone disagrees with you, theres probably something somewhere in the bible that agrees with your opinion. 
Heck, I could say that snakes can talk and that you can be eaten by a whale without dying and I bet I could find something in the bible that says so. Oh wait.


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 13, 2011)

Actually laughed while waking up and reading these responses, cheers


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## snakeluvver (Dec 13, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Actually laughed while waking up and reading these responses, cheers


Either you're a troll or you're just not very smart.


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## gillsy (Dec 13, 2011)

nathancl said:


> Jay, you, daniel, my mother and Keith have kind of changed my views on it all alot! but like Gillsy im so over hearing about it! I wish they would hurry up and get it done already!
> 
> lol thats a big step there for my stubborn little self, admitting someone has changed my opinion on something.....bastards!



I'm dissapointed in you!!! I thought you were on my side! I'm now the only gay I know who doesn't support gay marriage lol.


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## D3pro (Dec 13, 2011)

Colin said:


> I'm not trying to be offensive to christians or disrespect their beleifs.. but I also beleive they should be more tolerant, less judgmental and more christian like to others



Thats exactly what the real idea behind Christianity is. Unfortunately many use it for power or as reasoning behind their schemes. Religion was never meant for that and I laugh when it's bought up in these arguments. 
If this Texas man was really following the bible he wouldn't be a politician in the first place... Jesus would say what he said to Bush, "You know nothing of my work"


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## Colin (Dec 13, 2011)

Recharge said:


> colin, don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity  while they may be similar, they are worlds apart in core belief structure.



I won't :lol: but what I said in my post earlier applies to all christian faiths.. I find them all very judgemental, intolerant and very "anti-christian like" their outlook on life and people who don't conform to their way of thinking.. 

brand A religion or brand B religion is all the same to me..


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## snakeluvver (Dec 13, 2011)

I love how christians say homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so. The bible also says that cheating on your wife/husband is a sin, having sex unless for reproductional reasons is a sin, disobeying your parents is a sin.
I bet these christians have done all those things, and ignore those rules. But because they think homosexuality is wrong, they pick that one out of the lot and beat it to death. Its getting really old.


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## nathancl (Dec 13, 2011)

gillsy said:


> I'm dissapointed in you!!! I thought you were on my side! I'm now the only gay I know who doesn't support gay marriage lol.



I still have the same opinions I do before however would vote yes instead of no. hahhahaa I bet you love being the only gay in that village!


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## Renenet (Dec 13, 2011)

Trouble said:


> My dad is against gay marriage, and I asked him this question one day, and he just completely shut down - he didn't have an answer.



It's funny how when you challenge the views of some people on this subject, that's exactly what happens. They refuse to debate it. In the case of one person I know, I think it's because they're too embarrassed.



KaotikJezta said:


> Hey I'd want to be stoned if I had to work on Sunday......oh, you mean the other kind of stoned with rocks and stuff



Yeah, I read CDB's comment that way at first, too. I had to read your comment before I interpreted it the right way. 

I don't know where my head's at!


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## 53ERX (Dec 13, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> Either you're a troll or you're just not very smart.



I'd put money on both.. But it's ok, because his replies give me a chuckle also.
IMO, DarkDefender on page two was spot on by quoting 'Guess who's coming to dinner'
It won't be until the older generation is dead and buried, that the anti-discrimination viewpoint will overrule the 'everyone can be happy as long as they share my ideals' viewpoint.
It was/is the same with racial discrimination and unfortunately will likely be decades before a real change is seen.
And just so I don't offend the the baby boomers and previous generations that may be reading (too much anyway), I'm absolutely positive that given another 30-40 years, we'll be the proverbial stick in the mud on some new issue that rears it's head.


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## dihsmaj (Dec 13, 2011)

Is it just me or are the Westboro Baptist Church a bunch of trolls?


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## Crystal..Discus (Dec 13, 2011)

I've seen various threads come and go, but my stance on human equality has not changed since I was 13. Who are we to say that certain people can't participate in society, just because they're different? Cherry pickers (for years!) have been using excuses from an outdated manuscript; to discriminate against people from different races, different genders, different beliefs... 

Who are we to make children feel so ashamed of themselves that they feel the need to end their own life? People irk me. I may bicker on forums, call people names, but at the end of the day I'm not going to stand in front of someone and say "You're disgusting to me, you deserve less rights." We're all so conceited and egotistical that taking a step back would be the end of the world. 

Common sense died with the dignity and respect we may have had for each other. 

... 

(I want to go live on the moon.)


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## medz84 (Dec 13, 2011)

i just think its gross seeing 2 guys kiss.....

other then that i couldnt give a rats what other people in society are doing, as long as it doesnt affect me or my family!!!!


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## gillsy (Dec 13, 2011)

medz84 said:


> i just think its gross seeing 2 guys kiss.....
> 
> other then that i couldnt give a rats what other people in society are doing, as long as it doesnt affect me or my family!!!!



I feel the same about a male and female couple, and they do it everywhere... at least most of us are a little more discrete.


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## slim6y (Dec 13, 2011)

medz84 said:


> i just think its gross seeing 2 guys kiss.....
> 
> other then that i couldnt give a rats what other people in society are doing, as long as it doesnt affect me or my family!!!!



I (being a male) also don't want to see two guys kiss... But, controversially, I also don't want to see two girls kiss either.

This way I don't have double standards. But that's not the only reason.

Unfortunately I am such a heterosexual, that if two girls are going at it, then all I think about is - that's two girls I'll never have


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## Jay84 (Dec 13, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I mean seriously, you don't have to agree or support anyone that you don't want to. But you do need to give eneryone a fair go.
> Well said!
> And to all the haters, i'll be thinking of you when i go on a date tonight!
> You have a date?!?!?! Fill me in via PM
> ...


Read the latests comments on FB.... not as ripped as i was a few months ago lol



gillsy said:


> Jay sorry not saying either way, but I'm just over hearing about it. Particularly the guy that speaks about it on the 5pm 2DayFM news, he says it like if we don't get it our lives are destroyed. They're not, we have the right to live, have the right to have sex with who we want, to work without the fear of being decriminated...
> Dave, yes, it is annoying hearing about it all the time. It annoys me that it has to be heard all the time. But until things change it will continue to be heard.
> 
> You say we have the right to have sex with who we want, work without fear of being discriminated etc. I am genuinely happy for you that you have not experienced this, because many others have. I was bullied at my first place of employment. There were a group of guys who constantly ridiculed me and picked on me. This was years before i came out, this was when i was a 14 year old boy.
> ...


There are bad apples in every group of people. I would like to think that i am not racist or discriminatory in any way. I try to see things from all perspectives. Some things i may not agree on, but i would not try and stop them from doing it if they are not causing harm to anyone. 



nathancl said:


> Jay, you, daniel, my mother and Keith have kind of changed my views on it all alot! but like Gillsy im so over hearing about it! I wish they would hurry up and get it done already!
> Ditto, i wish they would hurry up with it too!
> lol thats a big step there for my stubborn little self, admitting someone has changed my opinion on something.....bastards!


hehehe.


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## gillsy (Dec 13, 2011)

Don't get me wrong Jay, I still don't support it but if it came down to a yes or no.


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## Fuscus (Dec 13, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Maybe being gay is your gods way of population control?


Actually war is, along with pestilence, famine, pogroms, inquisitions and tsunamis, but war is His favorite, at least until climate change gets its act together.



DarkDefender said:


> Or as Sidney Poitier says in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner "You are 30 years older than I am. You and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it's got to be. And not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs!"
> He is talking in a different context but I think it can easily apply to this..


Excellent point



TeKnO said:


> Yup we christians are all ignorant people who only believe what we are told..


You're not just whistling Dixie.



KaotikJezta said:


> Hey I'd want to be stoned if I had to work on Sunday......oh, you mean the other kind of stoned with rocks and stuff


And if certain people have their way... 



littlemay said:


> Hi, i'm not christian however i would be careful in saying these sorts of things; I study ancient history, particularly epigraphy and papyrology, and there is actually historical evidence for some of the happenings in the bible (not that they are recorded in anyway objectively of course). Not trying to be rude, just don't want brash comments stated in ignorance starting a fight =]


Well, they were right that Romans existed..



Recharge said:


> colin, don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity  while they may be similar, they are worlds apart in core belief structure.


The flavour of the ice cream is not important, they all make you fat.


And I'm surprised our resident wing-nut has not chimed in on this topic, frothing at the mouth and ranting about people who dare have different lifestyles.


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## IgotFrogs (Dec 13, 2011)

meh ... why cant we all just get along .... lol
way i see it is what people do behind their own doors is for them ..... 
but then again last time i was in a church was hrmmmmm quite a few years ago ....
i think it should be a given choice .... 
then again so many people just live together now days and dont do the full on ties that are meant to bind ..... 
freedom of choice i say .... as long as its not being pushed onto me or mine I'm good with it


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## vampstorso (Dec 13, 2011)

And don't you just think...

well...lets say I'm gay and a "sinner" (for the record, not gay at all), and you're so fantastically perfect and going to "heaven" and I'm going to "hell"...isn't that my problem? and shouldn't you just be happy to "get rid" of me (and hence mind your own business)? (of course it's not a problem at all, because such place doesn't exist)


why is it religion is aloud to be pushed down peoples throats endlessly, and yet, your beliefs about not believing in a God, are expected to be kept to yourself? It's just as disrespectful to not value our views.



if you're against homosexual marriage, it's a simple fix; don't YOU marry your own sex.


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## Australis (Dec 13, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> why is it religion is aloud to be pushed down peoples throats endlessly, and yet, your beliefs about not believing in a God, are expected to be kept to yourself? It's just as disrespectful to not value our views.



I hear you there.. freedom from religion is not taken seriously enough.. i hope belief in magic sky daddys wanes in my life time.


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## gillsy (Dec 13, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> if you're against homosexual marriage, it's a simple fix; don't YOU marry your own sex.



I plan not to, I prefer to go out and play


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## 53ERX (Dec 13, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> And don't you just think...
> 
> why is it religion is aloud to be pushed down peoples throats endlessly, and yet, your beliefs about not believing in a God, are expected to be kept to yourself? It's just as disrespectful to not value our views.



Ever seen John Safran vs God?
John Safran Atheist door knocking skit - YouTube


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## Smithers (Dec 13, 2011)

gillsy said:


> I feel the same about a male and female couple, and they do it everywhere... at least most of us are a little more discrete.



Praise the lord...opps wrong quote.


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## Nighthawk (Dec 13, 2011)

Why is it the most 'open-minded' people can have the most ridiculously narrow viewpoints? 
Open as the Grand Canyon monsieur, but how open is the Grand Canyon really in the greater scheme of things?
I really do not give a hoot what people do at home, be it sexual persuasion, faith or whatever damn hat they prefer to wear to bed. You can talk until you're blue in the face and shove whatever you like down my throat (figuratively, thank you very much - my mind is as filthy as the rest of yours so I'll catch that little snippet as it falls lmao), but at the end of the day whether or not it gets past my ears or my eyes and into my mind is my decision and mine alone.
Why argue? If another wishes to remain ignorant then ignorant they shall remain, and you can take that to the bank.


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## Jay84 (Dec 13, 2011)




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## Renenet (Dec 13, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> As you know, on my recent holiday to QLD, Dan and i were walking around Brisbane and its suburbs. We had mothers with kids driving past yelling abuse at us, guys in the shopping strips making crude jokes about us. We were not holding hands, we were not doing anything that could have been offensive to anyone. Yet we were subjected to being treated like we were diffrent from everyone else..



That is absolutely appalling.


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## Jay84 (Dec 13, 2011)

Renenet said:


> That is absolutely appalling.



I consider myself to have pretty thick skin. Usually when getting yelled abuse at or slurs it doesnt bother me. But i dont know why this did while i was on holiday. Also i was recently in Swan Hill for a friends birthday...... i was so uncomfortable, with all the guys in the bar staring, pointing, taklking about me and laughing. It was so intimidating that myself and my mates ended up having to leave the bar because we felt threatened. You never know what these idiots are going to do, whether just be the verbal taunts or whether they will get physical. I felt like i couldn't dance with the girls, enjoy myself, have fun, as every move i made was being scrutinised by this group of about 30 guys (the local footy team). 

So those that say we do not suffer discrimination and we live in a free country are wrong.

One of my mates from school got gay bashed after we left school by fellow students. His jaw was broken as was his cheekbone. He was in hospital for ages. That is what disgusts me. If you don't like it or dont agree with homosexuality, then turn away and ignore it. Don't discriminate, don't hate and don't be violent.


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## AirCooled (Dec 13, 2011)

I am not perfect,so I don't judge people on their choices in lifestyle(Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone).I would rather have a gay wingman to go out looking for girls(it works).Why does one book that is suppose to be so good,promote so much hate.......A gay workmate hugged me today for helping him,didn't catch anything and still like cats(not feline)...


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## Recharge (Dec 13, 2011)

Fuscus said:


> The flavour of the ice cream is not important, they all make you fat.



I wasn't defending them :lol: they're all as bad as each other, organised religion is a blight on a modern society of any kind.



> Quote Originally Posted by Jay84 View Post
> As you know, on my recent holiday to QLD, Dan and i were walking around Brisbane and its suburbs. We had mothers with kids driving past yelling abuse at us, guys in the shopping strips making crude jokes about us. We were not holding hands, we were not doing anything that could have been offensive to anyone. Yet we were subjected to being treated like we were diffrent from everyone else..



that'll teach you for going into the bogan sector ;P every city has one, so don't try to single us out please, the valley is WELL known to be homosexually friendly and is pretty open in every venue, there is nastiness everywhere if you look for it.

there's also a massive gay friendly community and support in Brisbane.

there is a still a LOT of fear out in the world, mainly thanks to previous generations instilling FUD, but it's ever so slowly changing as time goes by, just have to work ourselves through it.



Deadpan said:


> I would rather have a gay wingman to go out looking for girls(it works).Why does one book that is suppose to be so good,promote so much hate.......A gay workmate hugged me today for helping him,didn't catch anything and still like cats(not feline)...



it's all good as long as you return the favour and wing man for your gay friends equally


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## hypochondroac (Dec 13, 2011)

'When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bull story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! 

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull story.'


Ahh.. How i love you George Carlin.


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## gavman (Dec 13, 2011)

Throughout history there has not been one religious affiliated political party or individual running for position that has been able to stand on the values of their beliefs without espousing an institutionalised oppression of other human beings. 

What I find most repugnant is the hypocritical subjective quotation from the bible (and Leviticus raises its ugly head). Ironic that (for some) it appears as a modern Christian it is fine to apply a particular verse to homosexuals but not be true to all other areas contained in the Book of Leviticus and identify those that do as fundamentalists.

Whether or not you believe that homosexuality is a sin, immoral, or an abomination to nature the argument is not about what you believe is right or wrong but the integrity and morality in the way you treat other people who are different to you.

If you believe that as an individual you have the right to be treated with dignity, respected for your values, beliefs, integrity and positive contribution to society then how can you believe that another human being deserves less? 

At the end of the day no one is being asked for anyone’s approval to gay but to realise that if you believe you have the right to be with, date or fall in love with the person of your choice, and have that union celebrated and recognised in an official capacity, not to be discriminated against because of what that person is and not to be harassed or vilified in public, then so does everybody else.


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## pinkmus (Dec 13, 2011)

As long as people's choices do not infringe on my 'freedom' or rights I don't see how it's any of my business what they choose to do. I'm personally a Catholic but what really helps me form a more open view on Gay issues is attempting to imagine what it would be like to be in a similar situation. I thought what if heterosexuality was not the norm or more common than homosexuality? I would still be straight and there would be nothing I could do, even if I wanted to, to change that. 

So its not like gay people are gay by choice. In my opinion they're gay because they're gay and if you can't change anything about that, then what is the point of trying to prohibit gay relationships. I still respect people who have more conservative views on these issues, because they should be free to have those opinions. On the Rick Perry point, i personally admire Ron Paul's stance on the whole marriage issue (be it same sex or not). He believes the Government should not be controlling marriage anyway and let the different religions do their thing among their followers. I assume if two individuals don't want to get married within a religion they can simply sign a marriage contract. 

-Will


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## Nighthawk (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm sorry, but you can't blame a book for promoting hate. That point in itself is moot; it's people who promote hate. Different interpretations of the same line can either be positive or negative, it depends on the scope and actions of the mind that reads it.
I've read the bible and I don't hate gay people, I don't even like using the term 'gay' or 'homosexual'. My respect for a person depends on the person themselves, not their sexual orientation; they're all people to me. If a person is weak enough to let another's interpretation of a set of words sway their ethical compass to the point of deliberately hurting or despising another for something so trivial, something that doesn't even affect them, then that's their loss. The same goes for any connotation, whether belief or disbelief, negative or positive.
Tolerance works in many ways, but no matter which end you're standing its meaning is the same: Live and let live.


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## AirCooled (Dec 13, 2011)

Sometimes its hard to align with the intelligent human race,because some make it so damn hard to be the same species!...How long and how many are persecuted by race,religion and sexuality.Its has been going on for a couple of thousand years already.When will it stop,when everyone dies......What makes people better than others or should I say, What makes people THINK they are better than others!


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## Jay84 (Dec 13, 2011)

Sorry but i had to share this one lol.


edit - sorry, took the video down. Some may have found offensive.


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## hypochondroac (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm pretty sure religious folk will find this one offensive..

George Carlin -Rights and Privileges - YouTube


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## Recharge (Dec 13, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Sorry but i had to share this one lol.
> 
> 
> edit - sorry, took the video down. Some may have found offensive.



I'm offended you took it down!! you bugger!!   :lol:


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## Australis (Dec 13, 2011)

If God Were a Car 
If God Were a Car - YouTube

Get Educated About Homosexuality 
Get Educated About Homosexuality - YouTube


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## Darlyn (Dec 13, 2011)

At the end of the day christians will be be christians
religous fanatics will be fanatics, gays will be gay.
What the big problem we have to face is those people with blue eyes.
There should be no tolerance at all for blue eyed people.
There is no place for them here and we don't want them.
Why can't they just change their eye colour?


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## Nighthawk (Dec 14, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> At the end of the day christians will be be christians
> religous fanatics will be fanatics, gays will be gay.
> What the big problem we have to face is those people with blue eyes.
> There should be no tolerance at all for blue eyed people.
> ...



Where did I put my green contacts...


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## Mighty_Moose (Dec 14, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Yup we christians are all ignorant people who only believe what we are told..








Irony.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 14, 2011)

Honestly Australia should wake the hell up. We take pride in living in an open relaxed society, we take pride in living in one of the best countries on earth ! And then we degrade ourselves and our country by discriminating ? People its 2011 !! Wake the eff up australia and our crap government. I say let people do whatever they want when it comes to love/marriage. I dont care if 2 guys kiss, 2 girls kiss, guy and girl kiss. Love is love, it doesnt understand discrimination or hatred or racism. this topic really puts me down when i look at my country and see my people being treated like secondary system because of their love ! Honestly, our government and people should wake the eff up !! We take pride in liviing in one of the best open relaxed countries on earth. We take pride in our freedom, our beliefs, our cultrures and traditions. Then we turn around to some of our OWN people, and discriminate against them !! Shameful.Love knows no boundries, it has no limits and has no hatred. apart of our freedom and that means we are free to love whoever we want. Iv got a lebanese background, im muslim so ive heard my fair share of 'arab remarks' but you know what i actually feel bad for that person, living their life in hatred for others. FREE LOVE, FREE HUGS, NOH8. We should embrace everyones individuality and i will stand along side any group fighting for their rights to Love and get equal treatment to everyone else. Honestly, sometimes im embarrassed by my country when i see my own people discriminating my own people  Wake the hell up Australia


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## Bel03 (Dec 14, 2011)

What i find funny is the whole 'its their choice'........Im pretty sure that if they had a choice........chosing to be gay wouldnt be what they pick. They would most likely go with what is classed as 'normal' & be with the opposite sex, if only to avoid the name calling, the beatings, & the way society labels them. It isnt a CHOICE to be gay or straight, we are born the way we are, & people really need to learn to not only mind their own business, but also how to be respectful to EVERY human being, regardless on who they are lovin' at night!


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 14, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> What i find funny is the whole 'its their choice'........Im pretty sure that if they had a choice........chosing to be gay wouldnt be what they pick. They would most likely go with what is classed as 'normal' & be with the opposite sex, if only to avoid the name calling, the beatings, & the way society labels them. It isnt a CHOICE to be gay or straight, we are born the way we are, & people really need to learn to not only mind their own business, but also how to be respectful to EVERY human being, regardless on who they are lovin' at night!



Sorry Bel, but to be honest i dont agree with you here. Most people are happy to be the way they are. They are fine being gay and they are happy. Sexuality CAN be a choice and i dont think that if they could change it they would.


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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2011)

Hahahaha!



Exotic_Doc said:


> Sorry Bel, but to be honest i dont agree with you here. Most people are happy to be the way they are. They are fine being gay and they are happy. Sexuality CAN be a choice and i dont think that if they could change it they would.



What persuasion are you?


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 14, 2011)

LOL what do you mean? I know what persuasion is but what do you mean? Rephrase it so i can answer haha


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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> LOL what do you mean? I know what persuasion is but what do you mean?



What i mean is that if it really is a choice then i challenge you to change your sexuality. I would assume you are a heterosexual man, make a choice to stop being with women and be with men instead. And don't just do it, enjoy it!


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 14, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> What i mean is that if it really is a choice then i challenge you to change your sexuality. I would assume you are a heterosexual man, make a choice to stop being with women and be with men instead. And don't just do it, enjoy it!



No, i guess i said it wrong. That isnt what i meant. I meant that alot of people who are gay ( and i have heaps of gay friends) Are happy and comfortable witht the way they are. Sorry i guess i put it out wrong ( just woke up lol)


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## slim6y (Dec 14, 2011)

So... Gordo... I know what you're saying is right - and I get that. But is there still evidence to suggest that we're 'born' that way?

Now, I could google it - I realise. I could ask my brother - was he born that way? Why wasn't I born that way (though, I am glad when I read some of the posts here that I am a healthy heterosexual)?

I'm not denying that it's possible... And my brother did once say there was a 'gene' isolated. 

So I assume therefore it's genetic - and as you say, you're born that way. Truth? Bent truth (scuse the pun)? Or just phalicy (oh, another pun... wow... Getting good at these)? 

Anyway - did someone tell Rick Perry that? That if we're 'born' that way then surely we all have the right to a life - Would Rick stop people with down syndrome or cerebral palsy getting married? What about someone with haemophilia or colour blindness? Because, basically, what you're saying is the same thing (really) just in a different light.

Again, I need to make it clear, I am not denying this is the truth, but what I am saying - if it is, then surely this is where the buck stops!


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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2011)

Ok, i get that. So what did you mean by sexuality can be a choice?


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## Bel03 (Dec 14, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> Sorry Bel, but to be honest i dont agree with you here. Most people are happy to be the way they are. They are fine being gay and they are happy. Sexuality CAN be a choice and i dont think that if they could change it they would.




I dont mind if you dont agree with me......it happens! & yes, while some may be more then happy with their sexuality, i know plenty who arent, & as i said, it basically just comes down to them not liking the labels they are given or the way they are treated, so if given a 'choice' they wouldnt be gay. Im not saying they shouldnt be happy with who they are, but in the world we live, people make it very hard for those who have had alot to deal with to ever really feel comfortable.
I believe 100% that what & who you are attracted to sexually is already decided before you are born, you obviously dont realise until later in life that you may or may not be 'different', & while there are people who are able to 'pretend' they are 'normal', their feelings are still their feelings, they just bury them for as long as they can.


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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2011)

There is evidence that it is atleast partially genetic and there is also evidence that there are environmental influences (mainly in utero) too. That's not to say that you can raise a child a certain way to produce a gay/lesbian/bi or whatever. So in answer to your question of 'Is there evidence?' yes there is. 



slim6y said:


> So... Gordo... I know what you're saying is right - and I get that. But is there still evidence to suggest that we're 'born' that way?
> 
> Now, I could google it - I realise. I could ask my brother - was he born that way? Why wasn't I born that way (though, I am glad when I read some of the posts here that I am a healthy heterosexual)?
> 
> ...


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 14, 2011)

Thats where i made the mistake. i chose the wrong word. I was trying to say that they are comfortable with the way they are and wouldnt change it, Sorry for the confusion


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## Bel03 (Dec 14, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Ok, i get that. So what did you mean by sexuality can be a choice?



To some degree i think it can be......if you are bi, you can chose who you feel like snuggling with on a particular day, but if you are gay.......well, okay you can chose to snuggle with the opposite sex, but are you going to enjoy it......no. So while yes, you can make a choice who you bed down with, at the end of the day, the heart wants what the heart wants, your desires are your desires, no choices there imo.


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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2011)

Ah those bisexuals, they are a funny bunch. 



Bel711 said:


> To some degree i think it can be......if you are bi, you can chose who you feel like snuggling with on a particular day, but if you are gay.......well, okay you can chose to snuggle with the opposite sex, but are you going to enjoy it......no. So while yes, you can make a choice who you bed down with, at the end of the day, the heart wants what the heart wants, your desires are your desires, no choices there imo.


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## Bel03 (Dec 14, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Ah those bisexuals, they are a funny bunch.



Funny or FUN?  While i have been with girls like that, i do always seem to run back to my man.......girls are far too bitchy for my liking, i could NEVER live with one! :lol:


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 14, 2011)

looool, btw i find that the reptile community is the most open awesome community. or are we all crazy? mmmm not sure lool


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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2011)

You must not have been around it long! 
But anyway, back on topic.


Exotic_Doc said:


> looool, btw i find that the reptile community is the most open awesome community. or are we all crazy? mmmm not sure lool


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## Bel03 (Dec 14, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> looool, btw i find that the reptile community is the most open awesome community. or are we all crazy? mmmm not sure lool



Did you just read what i wrote......i admitted that my own gender sux! :shock: Crazy i must be! :lol: Nah, i love the ladies aswell, but to be in a relationship with one.......i think id choke myself!


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 14, 2011)

haha, nah look your always going to find some people that should take the hogwarts train back to 1820, but on a whole its heaps better then others


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## -Katana- (Dec 14, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> Did you just read what i wrote......i admitted that my own gender sux! :shock: Crazy i must be! :lol: Nah, i love the ladies aswell, but to be in a relationship with one.......i think id choke myself!



Hahahah! Be careful, Doll! You'll get kicked out of the sisterhood!


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## IgotFrogs (Dec 14, 2011)

People are people good and bad in everyone be they straight gay bi-sexual ... black white ... all the same to me


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## Snakewoman (Dec 14, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> There is evidence that it is atleast partially genetic



Do you have any links to that info? I'd love to send it to a friend of mine. I had a discussion with her about that a couple of months ago and was talking about it possibly being genetic and being born that way, and all she could say was "But God wouldn't do that". LOL! Oh really? I have Tourettes Syndrome, ADD and OCD. I was born with all of those things, that argument is BS :lol:


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## D3pro (Dec 14, 2011)




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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2011)

Not really sorry. If you google for information on gay twins you should find something. 



Tahlia said:


> Do you have any links to that info? I'd love to send it to a friend of mine. I had a discussion with her about that a couple of months ago and was talking about it possibly being genetic and being born that way, and all she could say was "But God wouldn't do that". LOL! Oh really? I have Tourettes Syndrome, ADD and OCD. I was born with all of those things, that argument is BS :lol:



Oh and i've learnt that it is not worth arguing with people who say things like that lol.


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## Snakewoman (Dec 14, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Not really sorry. If you google for information on gay twins you should find something.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and i've learnt that it is not worth arguing with people who say things like that lol.



Certainly isn't worth it lol, I was trying not to laugh but it was hard


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## Bel03 (Dec 14, 2011)

Tahlia said:


> I have Tourettes Syndrome, ADD and OCD. I was born with all of those things, that argument is BS :lol:



I also have ocd, having kids has helped ALOT, now i can turn a blind eye to a cushion on the couch not sitting 'proper'.......but damn, as a child, i was so not fun! My friends would come over & id make them sit on the floor so they didnt mess my blankets! :lol: Tourettes i dont have......but i have in the past told someone i did.......after they hit my car with a trolley & i told them where to go  He ended up being someone who had no worries hitting a girl, so i backed out of that argument real quick, & Tourettes seemed like a good way to do so.
As for the 'is it genetic or not' argument, ive read plenty that suggests it is, & from hearing others speak of the problems they have had to face, i believe totally that it isnt a choice.......besides, doesnt your friend realise that god wasnt in the bedroom when we were made.......he doesnt make straight people either


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## Snakewoman (Dec 14, 2011)

My disabilities are part of the reason why I don't want kids, I don't want to pass those things on, plus I know I couldn't handle a kid with the same problems as me. My own drive me nuts enough. If I'd had a choice in whether or not I wanted to exist on this planet I think I would have chosen to opt out.

Many people think that compulsive swearing is Tourettes, but it's coprolalia, which can sometimes be a symptom of Torurettes, but not everyone has it, I certainly don't. Only 10-15% of people with Tourettes will also have coprolalia. Here's some info about Tourettes if anyone is interested:

Tourette Syndrom - What is
Tourette Syndrom - Questions & Answers about TS


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## Jay84 (Dec 15, 2011)

Oh i do love this video lol. For those people being asked the question, when faced with the second question it really makes them think!

When Did You Choose to Be Straight? - YouTube


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## Recharge (Dec 15, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Ah those bisexuals, they are a funny bunch.



and we DO so like to cause you lot confusion and make things "interesting"  
though there are few who are 50/50, we almost always lean to one sex or the other, but it still comes down to attraction and other factors.


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## waruikazi (Dec 15, 2011)

Recharge said:


> and we DO so like to cause you lot confusion and make things "interesting"
> though there are few who are 50/50, we almost always lean to one sex or the other, but it still comes down to attraction and other factors.



I think i've talked about this to you before. I don't recon anyone, or very very few people, who are totally one way or the other. Just that one usually overrides the other. 

Everyone should just embrace it, god forbid you might enjoy it!


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## fugawi (Dec 15, 2011)

The gay gene, "I was born gay", "It's who I am" etc, I personally believe it is more society driven. In the Roman times it was accepted that at parties, anything goes. You took some mind altering drugs and drank heavily then committed adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism, paedophilia with both the guests and the various slaves, males, females, children etc it didn't matter and nobody cared what you did or who you did it with. Society changed, christianity dominated and these things were outlawed. Today religion is losing its hold on society and we are starting to push the limits of what is acceptable in society again. At this point in time, being gay is still not accepted by society........it is tolerated. I wonder if being gay is more the rush of doing something taboo or sticking it to parents or society. Is it a society thing or is it genetic? I lean more towards society. Either way, it doesn't personally effect me. If someone wants to be gay.....whatever floats your boat. If you want a piece of paper to justify your union, again.....whatever.


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## waruikazi (Dec 15, 2011)

If it is all a choice driven by rebelling against social norms then how do you explain those who are in closet? Not everybody goes out and flaunts it. The only way you would even have an inkling with a lot of people is if they tell you.

For arguments sake i'll entertain your idea as a possible explanation for people having sex with each other. But how does it explain people falling in love?



fugawi said:


> The gay gene, "I was born gay", "It's who I am" etc, I personally believe it is more society driven. In the Roman times it was accepted that at parties, anything goes. You took some mind altering drugs and drank heavily then committed adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism, paedophilia with both the guests and the various slaves, males, females, children etc it didn't matter and nobody cared what you did or who you did it with. Society changed, christianity dominated and these things were outlawed. Today religion is losing its hold on society and we are starting to push the limits of what is acceptable in society again. At this point in time, being gay is still not accepted by society........it is tolerated. I wonder if being gay is more the rush of doing something taboo or sticking it to parents or society. Is it a society thing or is it genetic? I lean more towards society. Either way, it doesn't personally effect me. If someone wants to be gay.....whatever floats your boat. If you want a piece of paper to justify your union, again.....whatever.


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## Nighthawk (Dec 15, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If it is all a choice driven by rebelling against social norms then how do you explain those who are in closet? Not everybody goes out and flaunts it. The only way you would even have an inkling with a lot of people is if they tell you.
> 
> For arguments sake i'll entertain your idea as a possible explanation for people having sex with each other. But how does it explain people falling in love?



It has merit in some points, but as you said it doesn't explain falling in love. It does, however, explain unnecessary guilt associated with falling in love and issues that arise there on. Ridiculous really when it has nothing to do with anybody but the two (or more, if you're into polygamy...) individuals involved. Biology explains falling in love a hell of a lot better than sociology.


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## starr9 (Dec 15, 2011)

Id say im bi and for me i love who i love! If asked if im more one way than they other, I feel that each person is different, and for me (guy or girl) its the person I fall in love with not there sex. Do I sway more to one sex than the other? No. I take each person as an individual and how they treat me and the people around them. Thats what I fall in love with, the person. Yes im with a man now and I can see myself with him for the rest of my life. Will we get married, I hope so! If he was a she Id still hope to wed! I think if it harms no one, your happy and true to yourself carry on! Life is to short to be trying to control how others live! If we spend so much time trying to control what everyone else is doing in there life, we never live our own!


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## Jay84 (Dec 15, 2011)

fugawi said:


> The gay gene, "I was born gay", "It's who I am" etc, I personally believe it is more society driven. In the Roman times it was accepted that at parties, anything goes. You took some mind altering drugs and drank heavily then committed adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism, paedophilia with both the guests and the various slaves, males, females, children etc it didn't matter and nobody cared what you did or who you did it with. Society changed, christianity dominated and these things were outlawed. Today religion is losing its hold on society and we are starting to push the limits of what is acceptable in society again. At this point in time, being gay is still not accepted by society........it is tolerated.
> How would you explain the fact that such young adolescents identify themselves as gay when they have had no influence in this? I was 10 when i first knew that i was different, my first crush was on a guy at school, i still remember his name it was that significant to me!
> 
> I was bought up VERY sheltered, i had no exposure to gays. I did not even know what it was. So how did society make me gay in this case? I was not allowed to watch TV shows that other kids watched, i was not allowed to have certain toys etc etc. So in my case your argument is flawed.
> ...


.


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## Dipcdame (Dec 15, 2011)

Religion is an outdated, outmoded thing. It struggles to justify it's immovability in it's ideals, most of which are some 2000 years old, and written by many different people from many different viewpoints. It's a bit like the journalists of our day. Being so resistant to change with the times and 'go with the flow', it has become irrelevant to todays society.

For hundreds of thousands of years, we lived as we saw fit, till only 2000 years ago, we were given this set of rules to live by. After that, everything went screwy, people hated and despised those with different views, from either side of the fence. It has been the reason for almost every conflict, and every war that has taken place, and all for what? So our sons, husbands and brothers can die needlessly in the name of some ridiculous book.

Religion and christianity is, thankfully, a dying entity, and I can't wait for the day it dies out completely, not in my lifetime it won't happen, but it WILL happen, as I said, it is irrelevant and useless.

Will be really happy to see the gays get their rights to marry, I hope they put it to a referendum, I think you'd find it would be a resounding YES!


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## dihsmaj (Dec 15, 2011)

My question is, why even respond to these fundamentalist homophobic people? They're either trolling or just incredibly stupid.


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## snakeluvver (Dec 15, 2011)

Why would somebody choose to be bullied for being different, have less rights than other people and be seen as evil by the idiotic religious nutbags. 
Gays dont "choose" to like men, just as straight people dont choose to like women. 
But it still is obviously seen as bad in our society. For example, when someones trying to insult someone they may say "You're a (rhymes with dag)" or "You're such a (rhymes with beer)" And if they see something as stupid, or pointless or whatever they'll say "Oh that is so gay".
I'll admit I'm guilty of saying those things, without meaning any offence to homosexual people, but the fact is its used so often that its part of many of our every day language.


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## benjamind2010 (Dec 15, 2011)

If abortion is tolerated, I can't even begin to see why society even has a problem at all with homosexuality. Human beings have a right to privacy, and, for right or wrong, what they do in their own lives is not anyone else's business, and certainly not the business of the government - a just government, that is.

Of course, here we are with a lot of heat and aggression towards gays or lesbians, who, through no fault of their own, were born with, or who through traumatic experiences with the opposite sex developed, a sexual attraction to the same sex. It happens, and there is little anyone can do to change that.

I am heterosexual, and I am only attracted to women - of course, but if others wants to be different to me that is their business, not mine.


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

I have zero care factor about minority groups in Australia. Quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about gay's, Muslims, Christians, etc etc.


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## souldoubt (Dec 15, 2011)

deleted.
Joke that was a little too insensitive, even for me


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## Recharge (Dec 15, 2011)

Snowman said:


> I have zero care factor about minority groups in Australia. Quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about gay's, Muslims, Christians, etc etc.



yea, but, every person in the country, is SOME part of a minority group, due to some point or other in their belief system or personal life or a quirk or some other thing.

and lucky for you, you have the choice to simply ignore them and go on about your business, ans especially with sexuality, in in no way, shape of form actually impacts upon your life, so there's no real problem with you now is there?

on your bike and leave the rest up to every one else,to do the heavy work for equality, I'm sure you would have had the exact same thought for women's and anti segregation and race rights back in the day too eh?


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

All I know is these differences create a lot of hate on both sides of the fence. If it doesnt affect you then stay out of it and be happy.

Recharge, I'm part of several minority groups as a result of the way I was born. I accept that and get on with life, rather than shove it in everyone's face. I feel sorry for you and all your anger and hate.


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## Recharge (Dec 15, 2011)

my anger and hate? LOL the fact is, homosexuals aren't shoving anything in our faces, but the religious nuts are, but I don't hate them.


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

You just seem so angry and your response was so negative towards me. Just love everyone the same and the world would be better for it.

christians knocking on doors and gays having massive parades. Muslims complaining about rules regarding burkkas. All seems to be thrown in the publics face.


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## saximus (Dec 15, 2011)

Snowman with all due respect I think you're confusing people just being who they are with people who want the rest of the world to believe what they do. Gays don't want everyone to turn gay they just want to be equal in the eyes of the law


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

Perhaps Sax. I mainly just don't like how angry everyone gets at each other. 
There is no law against being gay. And the way I see it defacto couples are better off than married couples in Australia. What does a piece of paper really mean? There is a lot of hetero sexual society turning away from the religious ceremony of marriage these days. Getting married means that you can't split income (pay partner to do the books), it means you only get one home owners grant between you etc....
If I was told I couldn't marry my partner then so be it. I love her and thats all there is to it. I don't care who recognises my commitment to her.


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 15, 2011)

Just for the record i don't 'hate' gays


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## souldoubt (Dec 15, 2011)

Snowman said:


> Perhaps Sax. I mainly just don't like how angry everyone gets at each other.
> There is no law against being gay. And the way I see it defacto couples are better off than married couples in Australia. What does a piece of paper really mean? There is a lot of hetero sexual society turning away from the religious ceremony of marriage these days. Getting married means that you can't split income (pay partner to do the books), it means you only get one home owners grant between you etc....
> If I was told I couldn't marry my partner then so be it. I love her and thats all there is to it. I don't care who recognises my commitment to her.



The fight about equality isnt just about marriage but every equal right awarded to gays is a large step towards making homosexuality socially accepted. As stated earlier being gay is illegal in some countries where gays are sentenced like in Iran and Cameroon. Even in Australia, you've never heard of a gay person being severely bashed or teenagers committing suicide because of the discrimination they face? Just because it's not illegal doesnt mean that everyone is fine with it and gays live a lovely life free of abuse.


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

souldoubt said:


> The fight about equality isnt just about marriage, as stated earlier being gay is illegal in some countries where gays are sentenced like in Iran and Cameroon. Even in Australia, you've never heard of a gay person being severely bashed or teenagers committing suicide because of the discrimination they face? Just because it's not illegal doesnt mean that everyone is fine with it and gays live a lovely life free of abuse.



You can't change peoples oppinions and views. We are ALL against child abuse. But there are so many mongrels in society that physically, emotionally, sexually abuse children. For the most part everyone is open to gay's and treat them like everyone else. Then there are the mongrels who dont. 
I used to get beat up in primary school for the colour of my skin. The only dark kid in my whole year level and one of only a few in the whole school. It taught me that we are all different and you will never get people to treat you with equality all the time. As an adult I still have random instances of racism. Like the random chemical testing at airports. I seem to get targeted every flight and I used to work FIFO so a flew a lot!!


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## souldoubt (Dec 15, 2011)

What I'm saying is just because you cant change that individuals actions that doesnt mean we should ignore it and say "oh that's just a problem we cant do anything about". To me that's just contributing to the problem as you may not verbally support it, but you dont stand up and say its wrong either. Oppression can still exist in a 'free' country, is just happens on a smaller scale.

If you've been the subject of racism then you should have a good understanding of why discrimination (such as what happens with the gay community) is a problem


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

So how have you changed the laws? You haven't that s how, because you can't.

The thing is my gay and lesbian friends aren't as worried as you about their situation. They understand that there are a few of their peers who want the laws change but when talking to them they say it doesn't matter. They also don't seem to have any problems with discrimination at work or play.


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## souldoubt (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm not going to get into this debate with you it's going waaaaaaay off track so I think you've completely missed my point. But I will give you the thought that: in Australia the Prime minister cant change the laws either. It needs to go through a number of steps that are there for that exact reason. Otherwise it would be more dictatorship than democratic.

It would be interesting to know if your friends feel discriminated against away from work or when they were younger perhaps?


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

That's right so if our democratic process hasn't approved this then it's the result of a nation not an individual or religious group. 
As I said before love EVERYONE the same.


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## Recharge (Dec 15, 2011)

but they are beginning to change, it's in the news for goodness sakes, soon to be legal recognition in the form of civil unions, and eventually, I believe the term marriage will be used, not in the short term, but eventually, heck, the fight for equality in non whites took hundreds of years, as did the equal rights of women, it all takes time, but eventually society changes.
racism too is ever so slowly changing, it's mandated in law, hate crimes and other areas, do you think homosexuals should have any less? it's their sexuality, the same as skin colour, it's an aspect of one segregated lot, and the fight to have it accepted as normal, healthy and especially into law is a must, it's the right thing to do and it's a worthy cause to campaign for.

and as I said, it's fine that you don't agree and wish to sit it out (lucky for you people less than a hundred years ago disagreed on skin colour segregation and inequality and fought, and not that's not a personal attack it's something to really seriously think about), I don't particularly find you lacking or any less of you, but I do think you're not really considering how important and valid it is (perhaps because it doesn't effect you personally?)



Snowman said:


> That's right so if our democratic process hasn't approved this then it's the result of a nation not an individual or religious group.
> As I said before love EVERYONE the same.




not exactly true, as I mentioned earlier, religious influence in our government is HUGE (the vast majority) yet it's not across the country (well, not polarised at least) even though in every (randomly selected) poll shows the vast majority don't support the religious stance on this issue.

and yet, "our" voices are slowly being heard, at least when a gay issue arses and both parties take a massive popularity dive, which makes them ever so slowly reconsider.



Snowman said:


> So how have you changed the laws? You haven't that s how, because you can't.
> 
> The thing is my gay and lesbian friends aren't as worried as you about their situation. They understand that there are a few of their peers who want the laws change but when talking to them they say it doesn't matter. They also don't seem to have any problems with discrimination at work or play.



your gay friends? that's a horribly small sample size to go judging a country size situation on don't you think?


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## Snowman (Dec 15, 2011)

Perhaps, but I think my gay and lesbian friends not caring makes me think even less of the situation. My ancestors came out during the white Australia policy. The skin colour hasn't really been an issue for my family in Australia other than as kids. The were still made citizens due to their social status and background. It was mainly the indigenous who faired poorly in this country. People forget there were thousands of Chinese, Indians, etc before white Australia policy was introduced. When you look at a lot of changes in the law it's often stemmed from the people it affected the most. Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks etc
Yes I'm happy to take a back seat on homosexual rights. It doesn't affect me. I doubt the whole gay movement is supporting the fight for ban on imported produce either. My initiall statement was about this.


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## slim6y (Dec 15, 2011)

Snowman said:


> Perhaps Sax. I mainly just don't like how angry everyone gets at each other.
> There is no law against being gay.



Hmmmm... This is one law I won't ever get - but you're right about there being no law against being gay. But there is a law that prevents certain types of intercourse under the age of 18 in the state of Queensland. 

And if you can't tell me that this isn't aimed at under 18 homosexual males, then, I'd really like to know why that law is there!

Australia is an extremely backwards country in certain things - and this is one of them. Maybe more so in Queensland than the remainder of the country.


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## Bel03 (Dec 15, 2011)

On the topic of stupid laws........in America somewhere, there is a law that allows men to have intercourse with animals......as long as they are under 5kgs.......:shock:
I will find the list i have, top 10 real useless laws, & post it here.


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## Wally (Dec 15, 2011)

*asks why we needed to know that* :?


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## Recharge (Dec 15, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> *asks why we needed to know that* :?



keep an eye out for people planning trips quickly to the USA!  :lol:


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## Snakewoman (Dec 15, 2011)

Dipcdame said:


> Religion and christianity is, thankfully, a dying entity, and I can't wait for the day it dies out completely, not in my lifetime it won't happen, but it WILL happen, as I said, it is irrelevant and useless.
> 
> Will be really happy to see the gays get their rights to marry, I hope they put it to a referendum, I think you'd find it would be a resounding YES!



I understand where you're coming from but religion dying out will not stop people going to war. I can't stand the extremist religious fanatics that caused so many wars to happen, but I believe the responsibility for their actions is on their heads, in their screwed up mind they believed what they were doing was right, but the fault lies with them, it isn't a book's fault they couldn't grow up and accept people who are different from them, it just seems to be the excuse they use, similar (but obviously not exactly the same) to people who kill somebody and say it was the fault of a violent video game they played.

People have the right to believe what they want, but the second they start trying to ram it down other people's throats or treat others who don't share their views like garbage it's a problem, but I know many religious people who are nothing like that, they aren't all bad. I totally understand wanting the abuse from religious fanatics to stop, but for me wanting their entire religion to die out isn't that different to the religious people who wish homosexuality would die out. I'm not having a go at you here, I agree with most of what you said


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## Renenet (Dec 15, 2011)

slim6y said:


> Australia is an extremely backwards country in certain things - and this is one of them. Maybe more so in Queensland than the remainder of the country.



It frustrates me how socially conservative Australia is.


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## fugawi (Dec 15, 2011)

To Jay......Just to clarify, I'm not homophobic in any way. I have had some very good friends who were gay and I have always treated them as I would any mate.

On the subject of society vs genetic, I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, basically just putting it out there. What I don't understand is that if it was genetic, wouldn't it be passed on to their siblings? Shouldn't they have got it passed down from one of their parents? This would give you a lineage, within a family that has tendencies towards being gay. Yet it seems to be entirely random. Wouldn't it therefore be a random mutation? (Sorry about making it sound like a disease. I am just trying to understand the genetic theory from a more scientific standpoint, not trying to hurt anyones feelings). I am just putting these questions forward for a better understanding rather than being argumentative. So please don't flame.


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## Recharge (Dec 15, 2011)

well, the thing is, they just don't know as yet, it may be several variables, for one thing, every human alive can be traced back to one male and one female ancestor (about 10,000 years apart) so it could easily be argued there could be a genetic trait, but it's spread across the entire species.

then you have the weird statistic of the more male children a women has, the higher chance the youngest will be gay. so it is also part of the female defence system (so they think)

and then you have the whole nature/nurture and abuse thing, where some people could have or have been psychologically scarred in child hood that create an affinity for the same sex.

and I think there may be other variables as well, but as you can see, there are a lot of things that can come into play, and as yet, they haven't found what causes one to be gay in their brain structure yet either (or for being strait either for that matter)
it's all very up in the air and I have no doubt it'll be decades if not longer before we have any real "reasons"


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## Jay84 (Dec 15, 2011)

Fugwai, sorry if my post sounded abrasive, i did not take your comments as homophobic at all. I was just trying to explain things form how i see it, my own experiences.

My best mates are identical twins, both gay. I know 3 sets of identical twins who are all gay. I know one set of non identical twins, one s gay, the other is not.

My partners cousin is gay. One of my far removed uncles is gay.

I can't explain the genetics of it, but i am confident you are born that way.


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## fugawi (Dec 15, 2011)

At first that sounds good, but it is still pretty random Jay. Far removed uncle and partners cousin are close but still pretty random. 4 people from 2 different families (yours and your partners), I'm talking parents, grandparents, children etc. Direct family. Twins have a closeness that borders on freaky where they "know" things and can finish off each others sentences so no surprise there, they also would hang out in the same circles together. It seems that all the twins seem to know each other and hang in the same social circles.

Please remember these are just observations not conclusions.


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## Australis (Dec 15, 2011)

I guess animals make the choice to be gay to :lol:


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## Renenet (Dec 15, 2011)

fugawi said:


> What I don't understand is that if it was genetic, wouldn't it be passed on to their siblings? Shouldn't they have got it passed down from one of their parents? This would give you a lineage, within a family that has tendencies towards being gay. Yet it seems to be entirely random.



Interesting point... but I think it would be hard to track the "lineage" of homosexuality to a point where it would be meaningful, simply because it has been considered so shameful. Any homosexuality in a family was likely hushed up and children who showed attraction to the same sex were probably "encouraged" against it. I'll bet there are people who never knew or accepted they were gay because it was so frowned on.

There's a similar problem in many families with genetic cancer risk. Two or three generations ago, you just did not talk about cancer and people simply got sick and died, no cause given. Consequently, it's difficult for people with a family history of cancer to trace the history back further than their grandparents.


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## fugawi (Dec 15, 2011)

Are they truly gay or is it dominance or some other thing we as humans relate to as being gay?

It would be hard to trace Renenet.

What we consider to be gay in dogs and other pack animals is actually a dominance thing, not actually gay with feelings or attraction towards the other individual animal.


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## Recharge (Dec 15, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Are they truly gay or is it dominance or some other thing we as humans relate to as being gay?
> 
> It would be hard to trace Renenet.
> 
> What we consider to be gay in dogs and other pack animals is actually a dominance thing, not actually gay with feelings or attraction towards the other individual animal.



well, if you want to get technical, there ARE no feelings in animals, nor "attraction", in human terms at least, we are the only fully sentient being on this sphere (that we know of), all other animals operate on instinct alone.
and not all animals have a dominance angle either, penguins for instance (and I'm sure others as well).

Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, there are MANY variations it seems.


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## fugawi (Dec 15, 2011)

If you read through the wiki you will find that it is debatable as to even using the words Homosexual Behaviour. As you read through each species in the list there is usually a logical reason like social bonding, defence of the nest or simply a lack of females in the enclosure. I think it is pretty flimsy to compare these animals to true gay behaviour like in humans.


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## toximac (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't understand how religious people think they have a right to vote against someone else's love, or thinking they should 'allow' same benefits as everyone else. The Government should be the ones doing it regardless of the vote, because its the right thing to do! Because they are the ones giving the benefits!

Marriage means less without allowing homosexuals to marry, because it officially means discrimination & benefits. Seriously, if it revolved around love, we wouldn't even be debating it. Strip all benefits away, couples sharing a VISA overseas, citizenship, name change/social title, will, loans/family status, money/property etc.. would people still get married? Because all these things are not religious issues.

Are people fearful because it will open a can of worms to religious business's getting special privileges like tax free/no land tax?
I don't know about you, but Id prefer psychological/medical institutions having tax free status over churches, after all they're the ones who fix people who come out of them.


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## fugawi (Dec 16, 2011)

I also noticed that high mercury levels was a cause and in tests with female mice having their female hormone levels lowered, they showed a masculine response and dominated the others. There are much higher mercury levels in our cities and on our farms now due to fertilizers etc. I wonder if it may be a combination of factors like hormone levels, poisons and a more open society? It may better explain why it goes back to early childhood than genetics.

( Again....sorry if I am making it sound like a curable disease)


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## hypochondroac (Dec 16, 2011)

I love how they start with 'I have so many gay friends and i don't treat them any differently to a normal person' like that makes you some kind of peace maker.


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## Darlyn (Dec 16, 2011)

I love how people try and pull homosexuality down, desseminate it, put it back together so it all makes sense.
Then do..........what with the findings?
Breed it out, find a medical cure?


Wot tha?


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## Recharge (Dec 16, 2011)

T


> he word homosexual is a Greek and Latin hybrid with the first element derived from Greek ὁμός homos, 'same' (not related to the Latin homo, 'man', as in Homo sapiens), thus connoting sexual acts and affections between members of the same sex, including lesbianism


so yea, it kinda can.

of course it's not a direct comparison, being we are the only sentient creature and all, but even with that, we evolved from the same organisms, we share 99.97 percent of the same genes as every living thing on the planet.
so it's not so flimsy apart from the whole self aware bit.
but even given that we have the ability to make (semi) informed choices and the ability to critically think about said choices, we still have instinct like every animal, we still have biological urges and imperatives like every other animal, we are only different in the smallest aspect, it just happens to make a huge difference in how we live, and you can't simply disregard all of these things.

I do have to ask, why is this even an issue to you? unless you're religious? or perhaps you've had unresolved feeling for the same sex at some stage and it scared the poo out of you?
really, I simply don't get it, how and why is this an issue? to try and dissect it? (without going and reading the current freely available science, medicine and psychology papers, and educate yourself) humans don't do much of anything without our own reasons


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## fugawi (Dec 16, 2011)

My god some of you people have thin skins.........Now I'm being accused of being a religious, homophobic, latent homosexual. Why can't you have a normal, peaceful discussion without all the anger and accusations. I simply disagreed with the "" It's a genetic thing" and the excuse that animals are also gay.
For your information I was watching a show from England called Dawn becomes a lesbian, where the presenter, Dawn, totally immersed herself in the lesbian culture for 2 weeks to get an understanding of lesbians. She lived in an apartment with 3 lesbians and went out with them to lesbian bars and clubs and even served behind the bar for a night. She saw a psychiatrist to ask how she can immerse herself further and he warned her that it could permanently turn her off men and it could do damage to later heterosexual relationships. By the end of her stay, she found that she was having erotic dreams of women and that she could easily understand why some women would be lesbians. It seems strange that a strictly hetrosexual TV presenter can be turned into a lesbian within 2 weeks by immersing herself in the culture. This seems to be a cultural thing to me....not genetic.
I'm starting to lean towards the idea that given no repercussions, enough alcohol at a Toga Party Orgy, with both straight and gay guests, everyone would start to experiment and show at least bisexual tendancies. I'm also thinking that various people have varying hormone levels, so some would jump straight in and some would hang back. This would suggest varying levels of homosexuality in all people. Therefore there is nothing "Wrong" with gays they just simply have different hormone levels and have immersed themselves in a different culture to me. This should reinforce the total equality issue of gays in this society. I don't think of them as sick, just a different lifestyle.

So in conclusion to the knockers, after all the questions and debate, I have given what I think is a good argument backing equality for all gays.


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## Crystal..Discus (Dec 16, 2011)

I didn't see anything accusatory, merely jest? Why is it that you interpreted it that way? You've presented very little in the way of studies regarding your "understanding" of homosexual behaviour, you just presented shallow findings from a television show.. It's fighting the nature vs nurture battle; an uphill struggle fought for many years and you're only just scratching at the surface of an iceburg. 

Regardless, we shouldn't need scientific studies or reason to justify equal rights for everyone... :cry:


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## Jay84 (Dec 16, 2011)

fugawi said:


> At first that sounds good, but it is still pretty random Jay. Far removed uncle and partners cousin are close but still pretty random. 4 people from 2 different families (yours and your partners), I'm talking parents, grandparents, children etc. Direct family. Twins have a closeness that borders on freaky where they "know" things and can finish off each others sentences so no surprise there, they also would hang out in the same circles together. It seems that all the twins seem to know each other and hang in the same social circles. Oh i know it is all very random and i can't see any patern to it either. I just thought as we were talking about homosexuality being genetic that i would add this info if you found it interesting. Also, your point about the twins hanging in the same social circles. Do you fnd it interesting that all sets of identical twins that i know are either both gay or both straight, the non identical twins can be either sexuality? All of them hanging in the same social circles.......
> 
> Please remember these are just observations not conclusions.





fugawi said:


> I also noticed that high mercury levels was a cause and in tests with female mice having their female hormone levels lowered, they showed a masculine response and dominated the others. There are much higher mercury levels in our cities and on our farms now due to fertilizers etc. I wonder if it may be a combination of factors like hormone levels, poisons and a more open society? It may better explain why it goes back to early childhood than genetics. Are you saying i am poisoned?!?!?! hahahha (don't worry, i am joking and i have not taken offense to aything you have said
> 
> With the high levels of mercury, has this always been the case? Because throughout the ages there have always been gays. Were people exposed to mercury back in the day?
> 
> ( Again....sorry if I am making it sound like a curable disease)  I have not taken offense to anything you have said





fugawi said:


> My god some of you people have thin skins.........Now I'm being accused of being a religious, homophobic, latent homosexual. Why can't you have a normal, peaceful discussion without all the anger and accusations. I simply disagreed with the "" It's a genetic thing" and the excuse that animals are also gay.
> For your information I was watching a show from England called Dawn becomes a lesbian, where the presenter, Dawn, totally immersed herself in the lesbian culture for 2 weeks to get an understanding of lesbians. She lived in an apartment with 3 lesbians and went out with them to lesbian bars and clubs and even served behind the bar for a night. She saw a psychiatrist to ask how she can immerse herself further and he warned her that it could permanently turn her off men and it could do damage to later heterosexual relationships. By the end of her stay, she found that she was having erotic dreams of women and that she could easily understand why some women would be lesbians. It seems strange that a strictly hetrosexual TV presenter can be turned into a lesbian within 2 weeks by immersing herself in the culture. This seems to be a cultural thing to me....not genetic. This also goes back to a previous comment by Gordo. That no one is 100% straight or gay. Everyone are varying degrees of it. You will find that many 'straight' people have had sexual experiences with people of the same sex, you will find that many gay people have been with people of the opposite sex. My partner was with a girl for some time before he came out. I personally have NEVER been with a girl and the furthest i have gone with a girl is a kiss hahahaha
> 
> Also this doesn't explain about a child identifying themselves as gay when they do not have gay friends, don't go to gay clubs, have NO exposure to homosexuality at all.
> ...


I think you have presented good ideas. Some i can look at and think... possibly, others i can look at and think, no way. End of the day as someone else has put. it shouldnt matter whether we are poisoned or born this way or hormone levels are different etc. We are still human beings and should have equal rights. I know this is where you stand so in no way am i attacking you


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## Recharge (Dec 16, 2011)

fugawi said:


> My god some of you people have thin skins



I couldn't have put it better myself 
but, you didn't answer my question. 
and, I could argue your post, but, well, I've had enough for the moment, trying to argue a point just drains me out *sigh*
but for future reference, I wasn't and don't accuse, I ask questions to try to understand a posters motivation(s) 
and with this particular topic, not all is black and white usually.

oh, and documentary you give as part of your reason, it's rubbish, immersing yourself in gay culture will NOT have you turning gay, I mean really..
and my belief for decades, is humanity is naturally bisexual and it's culture and social pressures that make us restrict ourselves, but then, my glasses may be tinted hehe


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## Bel03 (Dec 16, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> *asks why we needed to know that* :?



I was just sharing something i had just read.......my bad!  You didnt need to know........but my post wasnt the first post stating nothing but useless info either.......


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## Wally (Dec 16, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> I was just sharing something i had just read.......my bad!  You didnt need to know........but my post wasnt the first post stating nothing but useless info either.......



That's alright Bel, a few further drinks vanquished the disturbing mental pictures that formed in my over active imagination.


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## waruikazi (Dec 16, 2011)

fugawi said:


> My god some of you people have thin skins.........Now I'm being accused of being a religious, homophobic, latent homosexual. Why can't you have a normal, peaceful discussion without all the anger and accusations. I simply disagreed with the "" It's a genetic thing" and the excuse that animals are also gay.
> For your information I was watching a show from England called Dawn becomes a lesbian, where the presenter, Dawn, totally immersed herself in the lesbian culture for 2 weeks to get an understanding of lesbians. She lived in an apartment with 3 lesbians and went out with them to lesbian bars and clubs and even served behind the bar for a night. She saw a psychiatrist to ask how she can immerse herself further and he warned her that it could permanently turn her off men and it could do damage to later heterosexual relationships. By the end of her stay, she found that she was having erotic dreams of women and that she could easily understand why some women would be lesbians. It seems strange that a strictly hetrosexual TV presenter can be turned into a lesbian within 2 weeks by immersing herself in the culture. This seems to be a cultural thing to me....not genetic.
> I'm starting to lean towards the idea that given no repercussions, enough alcohol at a Toga Party Orgy, with both straight and gay guests, everyone would start to experiment and show at least bisexual tendancies. I'm also thinking that various people have varying hormone levels, so some would jump straight in and some would hang back. This would suggest varying levels of homosexuality in all people. Therefore there is nothing "Wrong" with gays they just simply have different hormone levels and have immersed themselves in a different culture to me. This should reinforce the total equality issue of gays in this society. I don't think of them as sick, just a different lifestyle.
> 
> So in conclusion to the knockers, after all the questions and debate, I have given what I think is a good argument backing equality for all gays.





Jay84 said:


> This also goes back to a previous comment by Gordo. That no one is 100% straight or gay. Everyone are varying degrees of it. You will find that many 'straight' people have had sexual experiences with people of the same sex, you will find that many gay people have been with people of the opposite sex. My partner was with a girl for some time before he came out. I personally have NEVER been with a girl and the furthest i have gone with a girl is a kiss hahahaha



Great point Jay. 

But come on both of you! How can you not love a nice round pair of boobs? Or a rock hard sculpted set of pecks? Trust me, you can get a good grip on both of them! :lol:


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## Nighthawk (Dec 16, 2011)

toximac said:


> Strip all benefits away, couples sharing a VISA overseas, citizenship, name change/social title, will, loans/family status, money/property etc.. would people still get married?



I did. I get nothing over here, no special dispensations to citizenship, no benefits, no help whatsoever apart from a medicare card. Do I care? No. As long as there's a roof over my kids' heads, as long as they're fed and happy, as long as my little family's together I don't care, because I love them all.
Just letting you know that marriage for love does still exist, and should exist for everyone.


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## moosenoose (Dec 16, 2011)

I think gay people should get married. That sort of stress shouldn't have to be subjected simply to us mere hetros :lol:


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## Bel03 (Dec 16, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> I think gay people should get married. That sort of stress shouldn't have to be subjected simply to us mere hetros :lol:



I agree with marriage being 'more hassle then its worth'. Since proposing to me, my partner seems to be in some rush to do the wedding thing......meanwhile, im not! Although i do love him heaps, & will gladly spend my life with him, i dont need that 'piece of paper'........i would rather spend the money involved in 'getting married' to 'get more reptiles'! 
I think that for those who still believe in marriage though, no matter who they wish to marry, should be aloud.


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## Nighthawk (Dec 16, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> I agree with marriage being 'more hassle then its worth'. Since proposing to me, my partner seems to be in some rush to do the wedding thing......meanwhile, im not! Although i do love him heaps, & will gladly spend my life with him, i dont need that 'piece of paper'........i would rather spend the money involved in 'getting married' to 'get more reptiles'!
> I think that for those who still believe in marriage though, no matter who they wish to marry, should be aloud.



Just do what we did; our wedding was a glorified bbq with a celebrant. We couldn't afford a huge thing and didn't really want one (although having said that, if the money was there and not an issue we probably would have enjoyed it...), but we couldn't justify spending that amount of money on a wedding, what with 2 kids at the time, our glorious hobby, bills to pay and the like. Much rather spend that on the life we wanted rather than the image we were putting forward. Fact is, we were happy, we wanted to be married, we did it. No frills. It shouldn't need to be anything more than that really, and the option should be open to anyone.


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## Bel03 (Dec 16, 2011)

Nighthawk, oh i SO would just go a bbq, drinks & good company........& when we do go down that path, that's exactly what it will be. ATM though, i am just in absolutley no rush whatsoever! (ive never been a big believer of marriage, ive seen far too many divorces) The funniest thing is, having drinks with some mates on the weekend & they are in the exact same situation, except it is her that wants it & her partner that doesnt! She thinks im crazy for not wanting the wedding part of it, while her partner & i think they are crazy for wanting to ruin an already good thing!


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## RIXI (Dec 16, 2011)

so gay people cant be happy without a certificate of marrage??...

while we (humans) claim to be intelegent and argue over pieces of paper....300,000 children are dying, we're killing off mother earth....but hey im all for gay marrage.....

Trivial argument.... lets argue somthing worth arguing... am i out of line?


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## Bel03 (Dec 16, 2011)

RIXI said:


> so gay people cant be happy without a certificate of marrage??...



While marriage isnt for some of us, there are alot of people who do believe greatly in marriage & what it symbolises..........the point is, it isnt our place to judge who they marry! 

As for your list of 'real' problems', i agree completely, there is nothing rational about arguing about marriage being for man & woman only, while children are dying.......however, it shouldnt need to be argued in the first place, get rid of stupid laws, & there wouldnt be an argument on this topic!


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## Crystal..Discus (Dec 16, 2011)

RIXI said:


> so gay people cant be happy without a certificate of marrage??...
> 
> while we (humans) claim to be intelegent and argue over pieces of paper....300,000 children are dying, we're killing off mother earth....but hey im all for gay marrage.....
> 
> Trivial argument.... lets argue somthing worth arguing... am i out of line?



Let's talk about how the education system in this country is obviously failing.


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## RIXI (Dec 16, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> Let's talk about how the education system in this country is obviously failing.



did you not understand what was typed?

then who gives a *f* didnt know this joint was full of punctuality police!



Bel711 said:


> While marriage isnt for some of us, there are alot of people who do believe greatly in marriage & what it symbolises..........the point is, it isnt our place to judge who they marry!
> 
> As for your list of 'real' problems', i agree completely, there is nothing rational about arguing about marriage being for man & woman only, while children are dying.......however, it shouldnt need to be argued in the first place, get rid of stupid laws, & there wouldnt be an argument on this topic!



agreed, it just seems a waste of resources and time (a big red tape with 300 polies with scissors saying "you cut it!" "NO you cut it")


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## jacks-pythons (Dec 16, 2011)

the funny thing about the whole gays not having rights is that the people making the biggest noise about the situation are people who believe in jesus to the full extent and belive that homosexuality is a sin. got news for you guys, the bible teaches us to love everyone. so put that in your pipe and smoke it. im not trying to offend any one but i dont believe in jesus. answer me this, when has he ever answered your prayers?? answer is never because nothing can ever happen with out your own actions taken to promote the outcome of the situation. im not gay but i have no problem with gays and fully support everthing they wish. y cant they get married? whats the difference with what they do behind closed doors? how is having a ring on their finger any different to any other day in life besides some more expensive jewlery? there is no argument, gays should have the same rights as everyone.


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## moosenoose (Dec 16, 2011)

jacks-pythons said:


> the bible teaches us to love everyone.


....errrr....except the part where it says God hates homosexuals...did you read that part? :lol:

It's also mentioned in the Bible that they don't like relations before marriage either...so I guess we're all going to the same big fun fest :lol:


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## Recharge (Dec 16, 2011)

RIXI said:


> so gay people cant be happy without a certificate of marrage??...
> 
> while we (humans) claim to be intelegent and argue over pieces of paper....300,000 children are dying, we're killing off mother earth....but hey im all for gay marrage.....
> 
> Trivial argument.... lets argue somthing worth arguing... am i out of line?



yep, we should do absolutely nothing else other than the "important" issues eh?
I don't even.. (who decides what's important? electricity? roads? human rights? equality? I'm sure a lot of people have a lot of different views on each issue, but it comes back to, why do you want to deny them this equality? how does it effect you to let them "marry"? otherwise, why do you seem to oppose it?

and yes, you are out of line, this is a major inequality within an active supposed modern society, how can you not see it? would it be different if it were Asians not allowed marry? sexuality is innate as race.

and as to your question to crystal.. well, I guess educated people? :lol:
you could always install a spell checker into your browser?
meh, and no, I'm not picking on you, it's a light hearted poke  
but you did react awfully well just after saying this group of people should shut up about their issue.. irony? oh well, it made me giggle :lol:


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## snakeluvver (Dec 16, 2011)

jacks-pythons said:


> the bible teaches us to love everyone.


The bible is the most hypocritical thing every wrote. One second it tells us we'll die and burn for our sins, then it says that Jesus loves everyone and that he died to forgive all our sins. Then it says that the time of trial will come when we're judged for our sins and will be punished.
Wow.


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## Crystal..Discus (Dec 16, 2011)

RIXI said:


> did you not understand what was typed?
> 
> then who gives a *f* didnt know this joint was full of punctuality police!



Being able to spell and punctuate like an adult makes a difference. It tells us that you're an educated person who (at least on face value) understands what they're talking about, not some pre-teen with a superiority complex and a keyboard.


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## Snowman (Dec 16, 2011)

I think WA's strict reptile keeping issues are more important than this topic.
Then the homeless, the children, the starving, the whales, the cane toads, the carbon tax, palm oil, war, etc etc...


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## mmafan555 (Dec 16, 2011)

slim6y said:


> I got a PM from mmafan with the title: I may be moving to New Zealand sooner than I thought.
> 
> "Former governor of Texas...now Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry....Is currently polling 3rd or 4th in the Republican presidential primary.
> 
> ...




Yeah it's not even that I'm like super left wing or anything..I'm not at all...I maybe lean left in general but I would vote for a right leaning conservative on occassion if I lived in another country.

But thats the problem...The right wing in New Zealand (atleast from my understanding of it) is not like the right wing in America..The left and right wing actullay stand together and agree on issues of common sense..Where as in American if the "left wing" even suggests to the Right wing that you know...maybe its not really a good idea to dump toxic hazardous waste into the rivers or ocean then the right wing responds with 'OMG YOU ARE SOCIALISTS TRYING TO DESTROY THE FREE MARKETS OMG...ANTI-AMERICAN SOCIALISTS CARE MORE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT THAN FREEDOM AND AMERICA HERPDEEDUURP" that's unfortunately the level of retardation that the right wing is known for in America. They aren't even conservative because they love to spend endless amounts of money policing the world to "SPREAD OUR FREEDOM" and are just a bunch of war mongering religious pandering retards.( well they aren't stupid but the people who vote for them are)

I guarentee there will be a war with Iran if any of them get elected...There may even be one if Obama gets relelected( and I'm no Obama fan) but their will definately be one if any of the neo-cons get elected.

Gingrich has already said that he wants to end the environmental protection agency...so look forward to retarded cigarette smoking rednecks machine gunning wolves and bears from helicopters as well as an assortment of other wonders that will result from having almost no environmental protection policies etc. Because of course, if you care about the envirnoment you must be a RADICAL LEFT WING AMERICA HATING SOCIALIST!

I left Ron Paul out of the equation because he will never get elected.


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## moosenoose (Dec 16, 2011)

Life is just so joyous, isn't it? :lol: Nothing difficult about it at all


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## Nighthawk (Dec 17, 2011)

Life is simple, people just like to over-complicate and over-think things.


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## Megzz (Dec 17, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> The bible is the most hypocritical thing every wrote. One second it tells us we'll die and burn for our sins, then it says that Jesus loves everyone and that he died to forgive all our sins. Then it says that the time of trial will come when we're judged for our sins and will be punished.
> Wow.


I'm far from Christian myself yet even I know its more involved than that.


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## waruikazi (Dec 19, 2011)

*save the ghey whales*

I know this thread is kinda dead and buried now but i wanted to share something that happened this morning that may lend weight to the idea that sexuality is atleast partially genetic. 

Anyway a short conversation followed, some i already knew but some i didn't. I have an uncle on my mum's side who was born a woman and transitioned in the late 80's and now identifies as a straight man, which i already knew about. But i didn't know that i also have (had, he passed away about 10 years ago) an uncle, also on my mum's side, who did not identify as straight. 

So out of seven of us (if you include me and my two siblings plus my mum and her three siblings) there are three in my family that openly don't identify as the social norm... 

I know it's only a small sample size, our two nuclear families, and gender identity and sexual identity are two different things. But it is rather suspicious!


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## Recharge (Dec 19, 2011)

Good on ya waruikazi, the best we can do in life is try to be "ourselves" as much as we can, to push past our own fears and predigest and those of others, and live as true to ourselves as much as possible.
as far as we know, we only get one shot, so might as well throw caution to the wind (within reason) and be who we are in our minds.
it may not be any easier, but you'll have a much better chance of being happy more often 
many more people could be enjoying life much more if they just let go of the fear of what others *may* think.


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## starr9 (Dec 19, 2011)

Wow!! Good work for taking that step Waruikazi!! 

I will say right back on one of the pages on this issue someone put up a very interesting link to a you tube vid where people where asked if they thought some ppl were born gay or choose to be gay. The ppl would answer and the person would ask them this " When did you choose to be straight?" It made most of the ppl stop and think very hard about it from there on out!


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## waruikazi (Dec 19, 2011)

Lol thanks, i only shared that cause i thought the incidence of being that way inclined is rather high in my family.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 19, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Lol thanks, i only shared that cause i thought the incidence of being that way inclined is rather high in my family.



Good on you for being true to yourself man


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## waruikazi (Dec 19, 2011)

Oh FFS i hate this kind of attention.


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## starr9 (Dec 19, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Oh FFS i hate this kind of attention.



hahahaha! enjoy it i say!!!


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## Rattler (Dec 19, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> I personally see being an ignorant bigot as being a greater sin than being gay.
> 
> Here I'll even quote your own fairy-tale back at you.
> 
> [h=4]Matthew 7[/h][h=5]Judging Others[/h] [SUP]1[/SUP] “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. [SUP]2[/SUP] For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. [SUP]3[/SUP] “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4[/SUP] How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? [SUP]5[/SUP] You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.



Ezekiel 3:17,21
“Son of man, a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Israel, and you must hear from my mouth speech and you must warn them from me. When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.
And when someone righteous turns back from his righteousness and actually does injustice and I must put a stumbling block before him, he himself will die because you did not warn him. For his sin he will die, and his righteous acts that he did will not be remembered, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. And as for you, in case you have warned someone righteous that the righteous one should not sin, and he himself does not actually sin, he will without fail keep on living because he had been warned, and you yourself will have delivered your own soul.”


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## waruikazi (Dec 19, 2011)

Rattler said:


> Ezekiel 3:17,21
> “Son of man, a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Israel, and you must hear from my mouth speech and you must warn them from me. When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.
> And when someone righteous turns back from his righteousness and actually does injustice and I must put a stumbling block before him, he himself will die because you did not warn him. For his sin he will die, and his righteous acts that he did will not be remembered, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. And as for you, in case you have warned someone righteous that the righteous one should not sin, and he himself does not actually sin, he will without fail keep on living because he had been warned, and you yourself will have delivered your own soul.”



This is straight from the son of God's mouth, none of this messenger bizzo!

*



1 John 1:9-10

Click to expand...

*


> If we confess our sins, he is faithful and
> just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we
> claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place
> in our lives.


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 19, 2011)

I have to say that I am happy with the support/consideration that has been shown by most the APS users. Only if general society was as excepting (jags is still a long way off), the world would be a better place.


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## Darlyn (Dec 19, 2011)

I quoteth from Lynnes book of common sense.

"Stop questioning others lives and live your own, ya fool!"

There endeth the message.


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## Rattler (Dec 20, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> This is straight from the son of God's mouth, none of this messenger bizzo!*1 John 1:9-10
> 
> 
> * If we confess our sins, he is faithful and
> ...



None of us are perfect thats right, but we gotta try...

Hebrews 10:26 
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.

Jude 4 
My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, _turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct_ and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Everyone can decide how to live their own lives and although ppl might not agree with each other at least we as individuals can treat each other with decency and respect, right?


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Dec 23, 2011)

The Bible is probably the most hypocritical book there is - it tells you that 'God loves everyone, he made us all' - then wouldn't he love gays because he made them that way? 
And for all the morons that say that it's "unnatural", it has been scientifically proven (with studies dating back to the 60's) that homosexuality is a natural form of human sexuality. There really shouldn't be any questions about the gay marriage laws - homosexual marriage should be considered perfectly normal, because it's as natural as heterosexual marriage. 

Good to see that most people on APS have their heads screwed on right.. unlike the rest of society.


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## Jay84 (Dec 24, 2011)

bahahahahahahahah............. oh i am laughing so hard at this! Please read the letter that was written hahahahahahaha

Gay community apologizes to Amy Koch for ruining her marriage - Minneapolis News - The Blotter

Gay community apologizes to Amy Koch for ruining her marriage - Minneapolis News - The Blotter


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## Recharge (Dec 24, 2011)

it's pretty typical isn't it? those most vocal are those who most often have something to hide themselves.
I hope they play this one to death, and make her suffer for her double standard bigotry.


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## Parko (Dec 24, 2011)

Geez enough is enough eh, whinging lobbying anally inclined people toughen up a bit eh?
I am prejudiced against for not giving a fark about ya.


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## Recharge (Dec 24, 2011)

huh? what exactly are you prejudiced against and how? 
you do know that about half of heterosexual couples partake in it as well right?
and if you don't give (as you so eloquently put it) a fark about it all, then how does it effect you? 
are you being repressed somehow?
I don't see any gay people roaming the streets at 7am Saturday knocking on doors, or groups congregating in malls with megaphones crying out messages of damnation, or even members of parliament enacting laws to keep you from legally embracing your love (with your consenting adult partner).. 
so, how does this all effect you exactly? I'm perplexed indeed and await with baited breath for your in depth reply.


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## starr9 (Dec 24, 2011)

I just found this when i was looking up "The origin of marriage". I found this part interesting and thought id share!

"Gay marriage is rare in history—but not unknown. The Roman emperor Nero, who ruled from A.D. 54 to 68, twice married men in formal wedding ceremonies, and forced the Imperial Court to treat them as his wives. In second- and third-century Rome, homosexual weddings became common enough that it worried the social commentator Juvenal, says Marilyn Yalom in A History of the Wife. “Look—a man of family and fortune—being wed to a man!” Juvenal wrote. “Such things, before we’re very much older, will be done in public.” He mocked such unions, saying that male “brides” would never be able to “hold their husbands by having a baby.” The Romans outlawed formal homosexual unions in the year 342. But Yale history professor John Boswell says he’s found scattered evidence of homosexual unions after that time, including some that were recognized by Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. In one 13th-century Greek Orthodox ceremony, the “Order for Solemnisation of Same Sex Union,” the celebrant asked God to grant the participants “grace to love one another and to abide unhated and not a cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God and all thy saints.”


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## AirCooled (Dec 24, 2011)

The first thing they have to do is to destroy the word 'choice' in regard to any same sex couple lifestyle.If was really a choice I don't think anyone would want the 'extras package' that automatically comes with that choice because of ignorance.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 24, 2011)

I say good em for that article Jay, and i hope they rub it in every single chance they get. Parko, if you dont care then dont press on the thread and offer your contribution. The thread clearly states what its about...So dont bother


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## Jeffa (Dec 24, 2011)

Not gay, but if there were a vote to make it legal to gay marriage then you have my vote. Merry christmas to all. Where do I sign?


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## mmafan555 (Dec 24, 2011)

Rainbow-Serpent said:


> The Bible is probably the most hypocritical book there is - it tells you that 'God loves everyone, he made us all' - then wouldn't he love gays because he made them that way?




It also says we are his "children" yet some of the biggest causes of human death in history are insect bites( parasites, viruses, bacteria spread by different insects) Seems odd that God would let lowly brainless insects cause so much suffering to his "children"


I don't think any sane rational person could ever argue that God is omnipresent and controls everything that happens on this earth(if he is a loving God that is)...That would be an insane argument that could be dismantled in 2 seconds...The only way you could argue an omnipresent God would be that he is a raging psychopath who enjoys suffering and death in which case I don't see much point in worshiping him...


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## Rattler (Dec 24, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> It also says we are his "children" yet some of the biggest causes of human death in history are insect bites( parasites, viruses, bacteria spread by different insects) Seems odd that God would let lowly brainless insects cause so much suffering to his "children"
> 
> I don't think any sane rational person could ever argue that God ... controls everything that happens on this earth(if he is a loving God that is)


Well said. Thats just the point and the reason for suffering throughout time and more so in our day. God doesnt control everything on earth right now. 
1 john 5:19 _"We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."_
Does that not make sense when you look at world events and conditions?



Rainbow-Serpent said:


> The Bible ... tells you that 'God loves everyone, he made us all' - then wouldn't he love gays because he made them that way?



1 corinthians 6:9 Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean, but you have been sanctified, but you have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.


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## Recharge (Dec 25, 2011)

ahhh but Rattler, is that a correct translation of the Hebrew it was written in??? 
and even the most religious say that much of the bible cannot be taken literally, so it's a bit meh all round (and it's still a book written by man, as is the koran and well, every single "holy" text on the planet)


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## DeadCricket (Dec 25, 2011)

Homosexuality is a proven and neccisary product of the 'Age of decadence' that society goes through.

I ask those christians who speak against it, how would you like it if we made your marriage illegal? Or your religion? 

Then again, I also believe that marriage is a christian tradition and that another legal life partner bond should be offered for all who aren't christian


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## Darlyn (Dec 25, 2011)

Rattler said:


> Well said. Thats just the point and the reason for suffering throughout time and more so in our day. God doesnt control everything on earth right now. 1 john 5:19 _"We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."_Does that not make sense when you look at world events and conditions?1 corinthians 6:9 Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean, but you have been sanctified, but you have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.


I'm a drunkard and an adulterer (back in the day)I don't care what "made up rules" you abide by, but get them outa my face.Also stop selecting which ones you reckon apply and ignore the other ones.Oh and another thing, pics or it didn't happen


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 25, 2011)

At the end of the day, if there was a being so immensely powerful that it created everything that ever existed everywhere our planet would be about as significant to that entity as a pimple, bit annoying when you occasionally notice it is there but totally meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The only way the god of the bible could possibly be real is if he was some megalomaniac alien that terraformed a planet and genetically engineered the inhabitants then forced his/her own values and rules onto said inhabitants for the purpose of controlling them. Anyone that thinks something powerful enough to create everything is worried about whether or not two people of the same sex want to get married or not really needs to have a good think about how absurd that is.


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 25, 2011)

My thinking is god must be very organized as he apparently has a plan for all of us. I have trouble planning my week let alone 7 billion peoples week.


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## SnapKitten (Dec 25, 2011)

Marriage (or wedlock) is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship. It is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged in a variety of ways, depending on the culture or subculture in which it is found. Such a union, often formalized via a wedding ceremony, may also be called matrimony.

People marry for many reasons, including one or more of the following: legal, social, libidinal, emotional, economic, spiritual, and religious. These might include arranged marriages, family obligations, the legal establishment of a nuclear family unit, the legal protection of children and public declaration of commitment. The act of marriage usually creates normative or legal obligations between the individuals involved. In some societies these obligations also extend to certain family members of the married persons. Some cultures allow the dissolution of marriage through divorce or annulment.

Marriage can be recognized by a state, an organization, a religious authority, a tribal group or local community. It is often viewed as a contract. Civil marriage is the legal concept of marriage as a governmental institution irrespective of religious affiliation, in accordance with marriage laws of the jurisdiction. 


Why is the major argument against gay marriage always from a Christianic origin when marriage is not just for Christians??!! You don't have to be Christian to marry!! You don't have to be religious in any way, shape or form!! 

As for the sanctuary of marriage argument. That went out the window when divorce was may so readily available. Marriage is now nothing but a joke, it is not taken seriously by the vast majority of the population. Proven numerous times by celebrities that are only married for an hour or 5mins. Or six different times, or several times to the same person. "To have and to hold until death do us part, thru sickness and health, for better or worse, richer or poorer... Or until I get bored and we get divorced" I personally don't care about marriage, to me it is now nothing but a worthless piece of paper, a symbol of a promise that can so easily be broken at any time. 

I do however, care for the right to be equal in all aspects of life. For those who still believe in marriage to have the right to be able to marry, and to be able to have their given rights as humans. Be you gay, straight, bi, religious, non religious, black, white or any variant. All should have the same human rights, as we are all human and all should be treated equally as such.

Human rights are "commonly understood as inalienable fundamental rights to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being." Human rights are thus conceived as universal (applicable everywhere) and egalitarian (the same for everyone).


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## Snakewoman (Dec 25, 2011)

Rattler:

Maybe you should take you nose out of your bible and your backside for just a couple of minutes and look at the REALITY of things. How would you feel if you were told that your sexuality was wrong despite the fact that you had no control over it and that you were not allowed to ever have a partner because if you do you're going to hell? Can you put yourself in other people's shoes or is that too hard for you?

There is no valid reason given in the bible for why homosexual relationships are supposed to be wrong. The only thing that's said about it is basically it's wrong because I said so. Why do you think that every word in the bible is true? Why do you blindly trust the words of people who lived thousands of years ago? Besides actually reading the bible have you ever researched it through other sources? If not it seems irresponsible, if you're going to base your life around something you should thoroughly research it first, and if the claims being made can't be proved, and you get called evil for wanting proof why should you have to believe it without question?


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## Rattler (Dec 25, 2011)

lol,
i have just shared what i know sheds light on this subject.
if it doesnt interest you thats fine.

in the meantime, all people should be shown respect and kindness, true?


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## PMyers (Dec 25, 2011)

Tahlia said:


> There is no valid reason given in the bible for why homosexual relationships are supposed to be wrong.



There is no valid reason given in the bible for ANYTHING! It was a text written thousands of years ago so that the people of the age could have a reason to understand things that could not otherwise be explained. It also made certain they were all good little boys and girls and did what the religious leaders told them to do. Quite a handy control method that, but I think that at least some members of society have evolved beyond the need to have every answer in life explained for them, and are quite capable of thinking for themselves. Unfortunately, they are in the minority.



Tahlia said:


> The only thing that's said about it is basically it's wrong because I said so.



Religion, regardless of the denomination, tenet or underlying belief, is built upon the psychological illness (or "personality trait") we all know as Narcissism. Do what I say or suffer the consequences. Love me or suffer an eternity or pain. Narcissism in its purest form.


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## Retic (Dec 25, 2011)

I can't fathom how in this day and age that people still choose to believe all this religious nonsense. Each to their own but I am secure enough not to need a fictional crutch.


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## Snakewoman (Dec 25, 2011)

It doesn't shed light on anything, and I'm not surprised you couldn't answer any of my questions. You make me laugh, you're talking about respect and kindness but your posts from the bible show anything but that. Some of the people who believe it are ignorant self righteous pricks, and some of those people are the reason why misunderstood people have committed suicide. Plenty of kindness and respect there.


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## DeadCricket (Dec 25, 2011)

In it's nature christianity doesn't condone anything 'bad'. The interpretation of religious teachings often lead to 'wrong' acts. I'm personally not religious but I will say that most religions share a decent moral base. 

Marriage, specifically, is a christian tradition, therefore another option should be offered, simply out of respect for christian beliefs. I'm not homosexual but I'm quite sure that many homosexual couples I know would be more than happy with that option. Whilst we ask christian's to respect the varied beliefs in our country we must also respect their beliefs. 

Religion plays a very important part in their lives and often it does help them tremendously. Even if you choose to fill your life with some other belief set or even none at all, you should recognise that it's your choice and in return, allow them theirs.


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## Snakewoman (Dec 25, 2011)

DeadCricket said:


> In it's nature christianity doesn't condone anything 'bad'. The interpretation of religious teachings often lead to 'wrong' acts. I'm personally not religious but I will say that most religions share a decent moral base.
> 
> Marriage, specifically, is a christian tradition, therefore another option should be offered, simply out of respect for christian beliefs. I'm not homosexual but I'm quite sure that many homosexual couples I know would be more than happy with that option. Whilst we ask christian's to respect the varied beliefs in our country we must also respect their beliefs.
> 
> Religion plays a very important part in their lives and often it does help them tremendously. Even if you choose to fill your life with some other belief set or even none at all, you should recognise that it's your choice and in return, allow them theirs.



Agree, it's the religious people that shove their beliefs down other people's throats and discriminate against others that I don't like. I do have some christian friends, and they aren't like that. Unfortunately I've found that it can be hard to find people with christian beliefs who aren't hypocrites or liars, that comes from 7 years in different churches. It says a lot unfortunately, but when you find people there who are genuine you keep them close.


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## Recharge (Dec 25, 2011)

> Marriage, specifically, is a christian tradition


yea, no, it's not, it existed in Roman times and before.


history_of_marriage_in_western.html


> Marriage, as we know it in our Western civilization today, has a long history with roots in several very different ancient cultures, of which the Roman, Hebrew, and Germanic are the most important.



but even with that, African tribes were marrying for land and influence for the last 10 thousand years, if not longer.


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## DeadCricket (Dec 25, 2011)

Recharge said:


> yea, no, it's not, it existed in Roman times and before.
> 
> 
> history_of_marriage_in_western.html
> ...



They were most certainly getting joined in life long bonds but they weren't known as marriage. Bonds like that exist across all cultures but marriage specifically is christian.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 25, 2011)

Marriage is not specifically Christian at all, Muslims, Hindus, Jews all get married. Ancient Greeks and Romans got married, pagan tribes handfasted (binding there hands together in official ceremonies considered marriage) which made a resurgence when the Christian church refused to let people marry without the sanction of the church leaders, Christians don't and never have had the monopoly on marriage.


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## waruikazi (Dec 25, 2011)

Happy birthday Jesus!


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## Jay84 (Dec 25, 2011)

Happy PAGAN day.


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 25, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Happy birthday Jesus!


Yewww


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## Australis (Dec 25, 2011)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. - Carl Sagan


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## Fuscus (Dec 25, 2011)

Australis said:


> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. - Carl Sagan


But what do badly-researched regurgitated pseudo-scientific claims require?


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## Australis (Dec 25, 2011)

Fuscus said:


> But what do badly-researched regurgitated pseudo-scientific claims require?



Ridicule


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## DeadCricket (Dec 25, 2011)

I haven't personally seen any evidence of the actual word marriage, being used to describe these bonds in anything other than christian text, as this is what christians label this bond. Most western history is influenced by christianity because, like it or not, we are a society based in christianity.


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## Recharge (Dec 25, 2011)

we're also a society based on slavery, child labour and a whole slew of other undesirable things (all under the flag of christianity and christian allowance), should we then dredge them back up for reuse?


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## Australis (Dec 25, 2011)

If we are going to listen to books on magic sky daddys (christian mythology) and magic alien sky daddys (mormon mythology) ... then bring on the child brides and polygamy/plural wives! xD


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## Recharge (Dec 25, 2011)

would you REALLY want three times the nagging? ;P *runs from crowd of angry women*


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## Fuscus (Dec 25, 2011)

Recharge said:


> would you REALLY want three times the nagging? ;P *runs from crowd of angry women*


You forgot the worst part - MULTIPLE MOTHERS_IN_LAW:shock:
Fortunately our hobby tends to keep them away


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 25, 2011)

Guys on this day i want use all to remember what Shristmas is all about.....Jesus <3 













<3 hehehehe


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## Retic (Dec 25, 2011)

I thought it was about the presents ?


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## Monitor_Keeper (Dec 25, 2011)

boa said:


> i thought it was about the presents ?




and ze foooooods


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 25, 2011)

It's actually to celebrate the birth of Santa


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## DeadCricket (Dec 25, 2011)

I can't see an issue with polygamy if the people involved are happy. 

I believe in freedom. Real freedom, negatives and all


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## Recharge (Dec 25, 2011)

polygamy isn't an issue socially, but legally it's a minefield. 
how do you divide assets if one or more partner leaves? what about child support issues?
and that's just the first couple question, there's a whole lot of fiddly legal reasons why it's not accepted legally, so as to protect and equalise responsibilities and other issues.
there's nothing stopping people from living in such a situation, but after the first partner, anyone else involved has virtually no legal standing.


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## Red-Ink (Dec 25, 2011)

Open post to anybody that uses religion as an argument....

OYGs

Gay marriage is not a threat to the covenant between yourself and the imaginary deity you wish to worship. Gay people are not seeking equality in your chosen faith... they are seeking equality in secular law. Since there are only few countries left where religious laws take precedence over secular, and thankfully not in this one.... if you want to use religion as an argument then you should follow it's laws to the T if not keep it the F out of secular law.

On the issue of the "book" what ever it may be the bible, talmeah, quran or the ramblings of L Ron Hubbard, I would assume since people can read and post in a reptile forum then you are litterate. Meaning you can read and comprehend words on your computer screen or in the pages of a book.... are you really that insecure or that much of a sheep that if you read the same peice of text you can't come to a conclusion or interpretation for yourself. Do you really need an allocated person at an allocated time of the day/week reading parts of that book for you then telling you what, how, and why you need to feel, think. and follow about it then feel so good about it with the rest of the people that have just been told. To the point that you then try and force feed the ideals fed to you to others. 

Gods die one day yours will too..... heck I visited the exibit of tutankhamun that re-emphasised this point.


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## Wally (Dec 25, 2011)

Imaginary sky fairies. Is their no end to their ability to make money.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 26, 2011)

I cant help but think how we are lead to believe that we live in a 'free' country. But when we actually look into different aspects in our day to day lives, we come to the conclusion that this is not the case.


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## PMyers (Dec 26, 2011)

Australis said:


> If we are going to listen to books on magic sky daddys (christian mythology) and magic alien sky daddys (mormon mythology) ... then bring on the child brides and polygamy/plural wives! xD



You misspelled moron, mate.

But on a non-gramatical point, the mormon religion is simply a reflection of the fact that some US citizens simply cannot come to terms with the fact that something important may have happened in history that didn't somehow involve the United States.


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## Retic (Dec 26, 2011)

The idea of us living in a free country is a myth spread by the controlling Government. 



Exotic_Doc said:


> I cant help but think how we are lead to believe that we live in a 'free' country. But when we actually look into different aspects in our day to day lives, we come to the conclusion that this is not the case.


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## Waterrat (Dec 26, 2011)

Tell me please, is there any religion on this planet that tolerates / accepts / supports homosexuality? In other words equality. (I am an atheist and I am not gay - don't hold it against me)


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## Red-Ink (Dec 26, 2011)

I read this story in a book once.

There once was a man bout 2k years ago.....

He travelled around with 12 other dudes (no mention of him ever being fond of women), he ate, slept, partied, shared his deepest most intimate feelings with these guys.... quite homo erotic actually with some innuendos of turning the other cheek and lines like loving your fellow men (though it stop short of any real juicy bits so to speak). I've even read the he once turned water into wine.... must have been quite a party animal and loved his plonk.


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## AirCooled (Dec 26, 2011)

The Dalai Lama is well known for his activism for human rights, and this specifically includes equal rights for gays. "His Holiness opposes violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation. He urges respect, tolerance, compassion, and the full recognition of human rights for all.


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## littlemay (Dec 26, 2011)

DeadCricket said:


> I haven't personally seen any evidence of the actual word marriage, being used to describe these bonds in anything other than christian text, as this is what christians label this bond. Most western history is influenced by christianity because, like it or not, we are a society based in christianity.



This is just silly; so because you personally have never seen it, it doesn't exist? Have you actually looked for evidence of marriage outside of biblical texts? Have you ever read any Classical texts? Can you read Classical Greek and Latin? There is PLENTY of evidence for marriage in the ancient world by people who lived well before the rise of Christianity. I'm in the process of starting a career in the translation and interpretation of ancient Greek texts (again, written before the rise of Christianity in places never exposed to Christian thought), words for what we know as 'marriage' absolutely exist.


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## Retic (Dec 26, 2011)

I would say Buddhism seeing as they are by far the most tolerant. It is certainly the only religion I have any time for. 



Waterrat said:


> Tell me please, is there any religion on this planet that tolerates / accepts / supports homosexuality? In other words equality. (I am an atheist and I am not gay - don't hold it against me)



Marriage is just a word, it has existed for much longer than the word and in many different religions. 



DeadCricket said:


> I haven't personally seen any evidence of the actual word marriage, being used to describe these bonds in anything other than christian text, as this is what christians label this bond. Most western history is influenced by christianity because, like it or not, we are a society based in christianity.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 26, 2011)

THERE IS NO LOVE OR FRIENDSHIP IN ISLAM BEFORE MARRIAGE - Abu Mussab Wajdi Akkari - YouTube

This guy did my head in. We were discussing his ideas with a bunch of friends. Now i will say there is only a bunch of people that think like this guy, as different Sheiks interperet all parts of the Koran differently. But i thought ill post it just to show the thought with regards to male and female friendship. If people like him believe this, then can you imagine their views on gay marriage? Islam takes a strong view against it, no matter what sect you belong to.


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## Waterrat (Dec 26, 2011)

boa said:


> I would say Buddhism seeing as they are by far the most tolerant. It is certainly the only religion I have any time for.



Theology is a subject I avoided all my life and therefore my knowledge there is very limited. However, in my understanding, Buddhism, Shinto, Animism and some other are philosophies rather than religions. There is also difference between religion and spirituality. But enough of that, religion is a forbidden subject on APS, I only got into it because it relates to the subject of homosexuality.


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## Renenet (Dec 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> There is also difference between religion and spirituality.



Absolutely yes.


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## Australis (Dec 26, 2011)

Deadpan said:


> The Dalai Lama is well known for his activism for human rights, and this specifically includes equal rights for gays. "His Holiness opposes violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation. He urges respect, tolerance, compassion, and the full recognition of human rights for all.






boa said:


> I would say Buddhism seeing as they are by far the most tolerant. It is certainly the only religion I have any time for.



I would have to disagree with you both.I will concede the general message sold to a jaded western world by the Dalai Lama / Buddhism is all nice and dandy.. but the same can be said for larger movements like Catholicism.

The Dalai Lama is the face of Buddhism, as the pope is to Catholicism.. so i will make a couple of points on the Dalai Lama's position on social issues.. and see how different these two groups really are..I would argue the Dalai Lama holds very similar views to right-wing christian.

"A sexual act is deemed proper when the couples use the organs intended for sexual intercourse and nothing else." - Dalai Lama (1996)

"Homosexuality, whether it is between men or between women, is not improper in itself. What is improper is the use of organs already defined as inappropriate for sexual contact." - Dalai Lama 

"In recent years, his remarks on the subject have somewhat softened: he told an audience in San Francisco that while Buddhist teachings historically discourage gay relationships, such prohibitions only apply to Buddhists."

^ So basically its ok for people funding his political campaign.. but not for the people he intend to be a dictator for ... lovely :lol:

Source of above three quotes: Tibet Is No Shangri-La, and the Dalai Lama Is Not What You Think - By Christina Larson | Foreign Policy

Penn&Teller's take on the Dalai lama
Holier Than Thou - part 3 - Penn&Teller's BullShit! - YouTube


Ive probably failed to make a solid case against Buddhism, im no word smith... but if you scratch beneath the surface.. you will find the same discrimination preached in Buddhism as you do in other religions like Christianity.. its just we a more familiar with the BS they have sold us.


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## dihsmaj (Dec 26, 2011)

TeKno, Christmas is actually a pagan festival about the winter/summer solstice. 
MERRY SOLSTICE TO ALL OF YOU!


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## Crystal..Discus (Dec 26, 2011)

If it's a sin to judge, does that mean Santa's going to hell?


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## Waterrat (Dec 26, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> If it's a sin to judge, does that mean Santa's going to hell?



Is there hell and is there Santa? Who is the judge? Faith is the demise of humanity.


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## CamdeJong (Dec 26, 2011)

TeKnO said:


> Yup we christians are all ignorant people who only believe what we are told..



You have no idea how right you are


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## Jeffa (Dec 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Tell me please, is there any religion on this planet that tolerates / accepts / supports homosexuality? In other words equality. (I am an atheist and I am not gay - don't hold it against me)


Spiritulism?

why don't homosexuals obtain a religion when it comes to voting/census?
Is there not a religion about Jedi?
If you got a large number of votes, would not this be classified as a religion? and if this is the case than it would be discrimination against religion. (more action than human rights) Or whatever they use as the excuse.


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## Colin (Dec 26, 2011)

wow.. just checked in for the first time since before xmas and Im pleased the APS crew didnt let me down.. dont let xmas or public holidays spoil your regular fun of posting argumentative dribble on the internet..


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