# Lacie weapons!



## imported_Varanus (Jan 27, 2012)

Another good reason for not messing with the pointy end of a Lacie!


----------



## Tristan (Jan 27, 2012)

i think one of us is missing something here

edit. right so after i post a pic appears :/ lol, indeed the chomp chomp chomp end is best avoided


----------



## waruikazi (Jan 27, 2012)

I want a skull off a large monitor badly...


----------



## Renenet (Jan 27, 2012)

Phweee! That's some sharp teeth.

Is that from your rehab lacey? How is he?


----------



## vampstorso (Jan 27, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> I want a skull off a large monitor badly...



Australian or self obtained specifically? If not, there's a site that was posted on here you can legally obtain bones from I can PM you, they had monitors but not Aussie.


----------



## waruikazi (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah that would be sweet man. Any road kill i find goes to the museum so i'd have to find another way of getting one than doing it myself.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 27, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> I want a skull off a large monitor badly...



Should have been plenty locally following the "toad front"? Hopefully this guys not available for a few years yet! If your desperate, "Bone Clones" (a U.S based company) has Komodo skull repros, but at a price.



Renenet said:


> Phweee! That's some sharp teeth.
> 
> Is that from your rehab lacey? How is he?



Yes, Ren. Not looking too good for release at this stage, one eye's completely blind and the other appears to have limited vision. Also, unreperably damaged hearing. Despite being fed regularly, he's also loosing weight considerably (1.5kg since I've had him), probably due to a combination of stress and parasites. 

Survival could go either way at this stage, but release looks unlikely.


----------



## Renenet (Jan 27, 2012)

Poor fellow.


----------



## serpenttongue (Jan 27, 2012)

I've just brought myself up to speed on this (can't believe I missed the previous two threads).

Nice big old lacie you have there, IV  I hope he eventually returns to his former glory!


----------



## mad_at_arms (Jan 27, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> If your desperate, "Bone Clones" (a U.S based company) has Komodo skull repros, but at a price.


The Moloch cast looks pretty good.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 27, 2012)

serpenttongue said:


> I've just brought myself up to speed on this (can't believe I missed the previous two threads).
> 
> Nice big old lacie you have there, IV  I hope he eventually returns to his former glory!



Thanks serp,

My sentiments exactly! I can totally understand why someone could easily end up with many more than originally planned, such individuals with so much character.Look no further for the ultimate herpy companion IMO.


----------



## whyme (Jan 29, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> Another good reason for not messing with the pointy end of a Lacie!



I really could have used that info on australia day:lol: See post aust day kiss:shock:


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 29, 2012)

Just remember it for next australia day!


----------



## crocdoc (Jan 29, 2012)

whyme said:


> See post aust day kiss


You should have posted that here. I laughed when I read saximus' post about reading the comments of some keepers about lace monitor bites but thinking they were overplaying it. I suspect I was one of those keepers and I'm not overplaying it when I say that I still think you got off lucky, as there doesn't seem to be any permanent damage (and it was also a small lace monitor).


----------



## SteveNT (Jan 29, 2012)

I grabbed a 4 foot perentie when I was 14. I'd caught heaps of goannas and ven snakes so no worries.

Right hand around the base of the tail, left coming under holding the neck.

He shredded my left arm, took a lot of stiches to fix, but he never bit me! Thank ****

First and last perentie capture 

Not just the pointy end


----------



## whyme (Jan 29, 2012)

crocdoc said:


> You should have posted that here. I laughed when I read saximus' post about reading the comments of some keepers about lace monitor bites but thinking they were overplaying it. I suspect I was one of those keepers and I'm not overplaying it when I say that I still think you got off lucky, as there doesn't seem to be any permanent damage (and it was also a small lace monitor).


Spot on about getting off lucky. It's very hard to explain to people the dangers associated with monitors. Pics can usually help, or a head X-ray. But, sometimes, hands OFF experience is the only way. On a side note Crocdoc, have you ever had a serious bit from the lacies. Just a curiousity question.


----------



## Fuscus (Jan 29, 2012)

Monitors have six sets of weapons capable of doing damage.
Getting whipped by one is a memorable but not recommended experience.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 29, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> I grabbed a 4 foot perentie when I was 14. I'd caught heaps of goannas and ven snakes so no worries.
> 
> Right hand around the base of the tail, left coming under holding the neck.
> 
> ...



Now THAT'S a monitor skull....looks like V. Prisca?


----------



## SteveNT (Jan 29, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> Now THAT'S a monitor skull....looks like V. Prisca?



Megalania, which I believe was contempraneous with early Australians (if from nothing else from the stories handed down through Cape York, Kimberly and Top End NT tribes).

The geniuses reckon it was a scavenger but you dont need massive RECURVED teeth to eat carrion


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 29, 2012)

If Gordo's a good boy, maybe you could give him that one! Makes my Lacie look like a gecko! I'd love to know which modern day Oz monitor has the strongest bite force? Despite the size difference, my money would still be on a Lacie over a Perentie anyday.


----------



## GeckPhotographer (Jan 29, 2012)

> Megalania, which I believe was contempraneous with early Australians (if from nothing else from the stories handed down through Cape York, Kimberly and Top End NT tribes).
> 
> The geniuses reckon it was a scavenger but you dont need massive RECURVED teeth to eat carrion



It is now generally recognised that this monitor is not in fact separate to the Varanus genus making Megalania a nodem nudem and meaning it is Varanus priscus.


----------



## SteveNT (Jan 29, 2012)

A rose by any other name still has thorns


----------



## Fuscus (Jan 29, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> ... reckon it was a scavenger but you dont need massive RECURVED teeth to eat carrion


It ain't necessarily so! The teeth would be useful for dragging carcasses to a place where you don't have to share. I've seen lacies dragging roos off the road. Anyhow the animal was probably both a scavenger and a hunter, depending on season and circumstances. Anyhow once man arrived ( assuming it was still around), it would have had a new ecological niche - Tucker. Giant four legged chicken - Mmmmm (drool)


----------



## SteveNT (Jan 29, 2012)

Mate I would be directing my spears and throwing sticks at food items a lot smaller than a 7 meter varanid!

Then again I have come across very old spearheads that are way too big for anything wandering around when the first fleet arrived.


----------



## crocdoc (Jan 29, 2012)

whyme said:


> On a side note Crocdoc, have you ever had a serious bit from the lacies.


I've been bitten badly once, by a small male. Tamest lacie you'll ever see, too. I'd hate to get bitten by my big male and take every precaution to make sure that doesn't happen.


----------



## cement (Jan 29, 2012)

Yeah they got arsenal, and don't mind using it. I've not copped a bite, but have been ripped up the arm and tail whipped in the eye.
Footy jumpers and gloves lol i'm no hero when it comes to wild monitors. Micro surgery we can do without!

IV does that xray show a broken lower jaw?


----------



## SteveNT (Jan 29, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> If Gordo's a good boy, maybe you could give him that one! Makes my Lacie look like a gecko! I'd love to know which modern day Oz monitor has the strongest bite force? Despite the size difference, my money would still be on a Lacie over a Perentie anyday.



That's not mine haha! I pulled it off the net!

Re bite pressure it's not my intention to test either


----------



## crocdoc (Jan 30, 2012)

Regarding the recurved teeth, they are ideal for feeding on carrion. Being sharp and serrated as well, the curvature makes cutting/tearing off chunks of flesh easier (see the photos of whyme's finger on the other forum). That's not to say that _V. prisca_ didn't take down prey as well, though.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 30, 2012)

crocdoc said:


> Regarding the recurved teeth, they are ideal for feeding on carrion. Being sharp and serrated as well, the curvature makes cutting/tearing off chunks of flesh easier (see the photos of whyme's finger on the other forum). That's not to say that _V. prisca_ didn't take down prey as well, though.



I've always imagined a feeding strategy very similar to modern day Komodos, David?! Monitors, like crocs, have hardly varied in morphology through millions of years of evolution. I guess, when your on a good thing, you stick to it!

Do you have any theories on bite strength? I recall Rex (AS Reptile Centre) showing me a pic of Steve Irwin's bite he recieved from Rex's captive adult male Perentie. It hung on for a few seconds, so the monitor meant it and it was no glancing blow. Apart from puncture wounds and alot of blood loss, there was little in the way of muscle or ligament damage and, aparently, Steve was still able to use his arm the following day (and Rex has a BIG male perentie). I often wonder, if that had been a large male Lacie, wether the consequences might have been different?!



cement said:


> IV does that xray show a broken lower jaw?



Here's the original X ray, cement and the lower jaw is visually out of whack, but we're waiting on a herp specialist vet for confirmation. The fact that he's still eating (and drinking) is just testament to how tough these old fellas are IMO. When you see RSP's neglectarino (with MBD), that's the real deal right there. It's a real shame that Lacies still suffer and die under captive conditions when you're witness to all they can cop!


----------



## crocdoc (Jan 30, 2012)

I would think _Varanus priscus_ was a lot like modern Komodo dragons, yes. A mixture of fresh prey and carrion (not unlike lace monitors, too, which are the Komodo dragon's closest relative). 
I would also agree that a big male lace monitor would have a much worse bite than a big male perentie.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 31, 2012)

And now, I'm a tick cleaning station! This part "Boris" (don't ask) seemed to enjoy. He even fell asleep. No aggressive moves and he swapped sides for me. Me thinks he's enjoying this rehab lark a bit too much!


----------



## pythrulz (Jan 31, 2012)

big teeth and sharp claws that could easily result in permanent injury thats why I get well out of the way when my lacie Is hungry and runs at me might be a bluff but Im not risking It


----------



## SteveNT (Jan 31, 2012)

crocdoc said:


> Regarding the recurved teeth, they are ideal for feeding on carrion. Being sharp and serrated as well, the curvature makes cutting/tearing off chunks of flesh easier (see the photos of whyme's finger on the other forum). That's not to say that _V. prisca_ didn't take down prey as well, though.



Really you dont need curved teeth for eating dead animals (or our steak knives would look like scimitars!) Curved teeth are hooks for holding live prey. And I agree they would have been opportunists for any meal, dead or alive.


----------



## PhilK (Jan 31, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> I want a skull off a large monitor badly...


Komodo Dragon Skull Bone Clones BC-027



imported_Varanus said:


> Another good reason for not messing with the pointy end of a Lacie!



Isn't that the only reason...?


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 31, 2012)

pythrulz said:


> big teeth and sharp claws that could easily result in permanent injury thats why I get well out of the way when my lacie Is hungry and runs at me might be a bluff but Im not risking It



Exactly, there's "normal brain" and "food brain". Food brain's like a shark with blood in the water where everything else becomes irrelevant.


----------



## crocdoc (Jan 31, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> Really you dont need curved teeth for eating dead animals (or our steak knives would look like scimitars!)



Not so - we move our hands to cut up the food with the knife. With curved teeth that have a serrated edge all a monitor needs to do is pull back and the meat gets cut.


----------



## cement (Jan 31, 2012)

I see what you mean with second xray mate, is it MBD or has he had a knock? Its fairly out of whack.

Testament to their survival and ability to carry on, the one i had up until recently had a head injury, was blind in both eyes and had no tongue flick, yet quite quickly worked out its enclosure 4mx4m and easily locate its water bowl after a feed, easily return to its hide box. As long as the wind was blowing the right way it would locate, with nose alone (no tongue), rats i would stash around the backyard. being blind definatly hampered it making it slower, it was interesting to see it working out new smells.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 31, 2012)

cement said:


> I see what you mean with second xray mate, is it MBD or has he had a knock? Its fairly out of whack.



Definately not MBD, this is a wild animal from a car accident.

Thanks for sharing your rehab, was yours a captive bred or wild pickup, mate? Did he come into your care as a head injury?? Any lacie rehab tips/ advice would be greatly appreciated, as I'm really flying by the seat of my pants ATM!

They certainly are a force to be reconed with when it comes to survival instincts.


----------



## cement (Jan 31, 2012)

It was wild one. It was found in the bush half dead and being hammered by a brush turkey. The cause of the head injury is unknown but he had bark off his head, a fractured jaw and bleeding from the inside of its mouth.Pete Nosworthy checked him over with me and he had all cranial organs intact (eyes, tongue etc) but some of it just didn't work anymore, so the head injury must have damaged a part of the brain that affects the eyes and the tongue flicking. The only part of the tongue I ever saw were the tips of the tines one day, and I thought beauty hes coming good. But that was short lived. for all intents and purposes it is a healthy lizard now, just blind and no tongue. he can't be released as he wouldn't survive now in the wild, but he is getting well cared for and seems quite content to do his own thing with out the added harsh wild environment.


----------



## Renenet (Jan 31, 2012)

I have been tail-whipped on the arm by a half-grown V. mertensi, so not a large monitor by any means. Apart from a fleeting red mark it didn't do much damage, although it did give me a new respect for what larger monitors might be capable of.


----------



## serpenttongue (Jan 31, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> And now, I'm a tick cleaning station! This part "Boris" (don't ask) seemed to enjoy. He even fell asleep. No aggressive moves and he swapped sides for me. Me thinks he's enjoying this rehab lark a bit too much!



How are you going with the ticks around the cloaca?


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 31, 2012)

Many thanks, again, Cement, that's very encouraging with an obviously positive outcome. Was surgery performed on the fractured jaw in your case? I only ask because I have a strong feeling I'm walking a fine line between the need for vetinary assistance and the , perhaps, more immediate need to reduce stress levels in an old, wild animal. I'm thinking that, if he's feeding regularly and has a good feeding response, perhaps invasive surgery can be avoided or, at least, postponed for the time being?



Renenet said:


> I have been tail-whipped on the arm by a half-grown V. mertensi, so not a large monitor by any means. Apart from a fleeting red mark it didn't do much damage, although it did give me a new respect for what larger monitors might be capable of.



Ever since I've had need to handle this fella in any way, he's been trying to use claws, arms (which are amazingly strong) and tail to drag my various limbs toward his mouth and razor sharps, quiet scary and underhand, I feel. Even at the last vet visit, he managed to wrap his tail around my vet's upper thigh so she couldn't administer her lateral vein injection without nearly falling face first into his back and the table! I only realised when In noticed her getting taller and standing on tip toes. That's just before she let out a slight squeel,!!


----------



## SteveNT (Jan 31, 2012)

crocdoc said:


> Not so - we move our hands to cut up the food with the knife. With curved teeth that have a serrated edge all a monitor needs to do is pull back and the meat gets cut.



TOUCHE! but I can cut my steak with a straight knife in backwards motion only, if necessary. I'm not disputing the importance of serration but I know a hook when I see one


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 31, 2012)

serpenttongue said:


> How are you going with the ticks around the cloaca?



Ha,ha,ha.....avoiding them ATM, mate! I might wait until he's sedated again, at least that's the plan.


----------



## waruikazi (Jan 31, 2012)

Could you give him a dose of ivermectin? That would treat all the worms, ticks and everything... as long as monitors can take it.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 31, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> Could you give him a dose of ivermectin? That would treat all the worms, ticks and everything... as long as monitors can take it.



Sounds like the go, but I'll have to get back to you on that one! I have a dosing table for Ivermectin supplied by a Taronga herp vet that he's recommended for some of his snake clients, but I'm not sure on it's use in large monitors? His suggestion for Lacies was "Wormout Gel" (containing praziquantel) and I've found two doses at a one week interval to be very effective (and safe) with my captive LM's.

Anything that will reduce my need to have my important pink didgets anywhere near that mouth has to be worth a look!


----------



## cement (Jan 31, 2012)

Haha, cheeky bugger scruffing the vet like that! There's nothing like a goanna to break the ice!

The ticks around the cloaca can easily be pulled off if he climbs a mesh cage/avairy wall. Its a great safe way to check out the undercarriage, and with a pair of tweezers or tongs you can pull out the ticks as you please.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 31, 2012)

He seemed to enjoy having his body de-ticked today, but it may just be a cunning plan to lull me in to a false sense of security for tommorrw! Ten minutes in the freezer might be the go? (just kidding). I'll give the mesh a shot, thanks!


----------



## serpenttongue (Jan 31, 2012)

cement said:


> The ticks around the cloaca can easily be pulled off if he climbs a mesh cage/avairy wall. Its a great safe way to check out the undercarriage, and with a pair of tweezers or tongs you can pull out the ticks as you please.




Yeah, I do this.


----------



## crocdoc (Feb 1, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> I'm not disputing the importance of serration but I know a hook when I see one


I should have pointed out, following your previous comment (below) that even scimitars themselves were developed for cutting, not as hooks for grabbing 


SteveNT said:


> Really you dont need curved teeth for eating dead animals (or our steak knives would look like scimitars!)



I'm not disputing that the monitors that eat carrion don't also hunt live animals, or that the curved (but not blade-edged) teeth of many animals (snakes, grey nurse sharks) are developed for grabbing, but when one sees teeth that are curved but have sharp, serrated edges, they are as much for cutting chunks out of large prey items as anything else.


----------



## imported_Varanus (Feb 1, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> Could you give him a dose of ivermectin? That would treat all the worms, ticks and everything... as long as monitors can take it.



Just a quick update regarding Gordo's question on the use of Ivomectin in monitors.

According to a herp specialist vet I've been in touch with regarding "Boris", Ivomectin is safe for use with monitors but only effective against roundworm and ectoparasites, whereas "Worm out Gel" with kill roundworm and tapeworm but is not effective against any ectoparasites. The vet has suggested a combination of both, or worm out gel and any readily available brand of mite spray.


----------

