# Tragedy



## improvius (May 2, 2005)

Wow, I just heard about this. Did any of you know this person?

Mystery surrounds snake handler's death

-Imp


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## Jarvis78 (May 2, 2005)

Fuscus posted a similar story earlier today. Pretty sad though. At least the snake was not involved in this story


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## Recharge (May 2, 2005)

I'm just waiting for the over the top response from the media :/


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## Guest (May 2, 2005)

I wonder if sxereturn knows the guy? Most likely considering he works there i guess.


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## ashley_morris22 (May 2, 2005)

> sxereturn


what ever happend to him


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## Brodie (May 2, 2005)

I found out about it yhesterday, and yes I knew him. Jonno did to.

Brodie


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## Dicco (May 2, 2005)

Ashley, Jonno(sxereturn) was banned from this site, for no good reason either.


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## Sdaji (May 2, 2005)

I was quite upset when I heard about this yesterday as he and I had just recently started talking regularly, he said he had an interest in parthenogenesis and we'd just started discussing it, although I suppose now I'll never know what he was alluding to. 

I was hoping that the media wouldn't get hold if the story and it would stay quiet, but this thread shows otherwise. Hopefully this won't get blown out of proportion as that could mean tighter restrictions on keeping large snakes, particularly scrubbies. As they said, it is not considered fact that the snake was related to his death, and he also had consumed a large amount of alcohol.

And yes, sxereturn worked with him, but for some reason was banned from APS.


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## lutzd (May 2, 2005)

*Re: RE: Tragedy*



Dicco said:


> Ashley, Jonno(sxereturn) was banned from this site, for no good reason either.





sdaji said:


> And yes, sxereturn worked with him, but for some reason was banned from APS.



That's not quite true, Dicco. No-one is banned for "no good reason". He might not have agreed with the reason, but none of the moderators is waiting to ban someone for the fun of it! 

We try to be fair in the application of the rules. If a majority of the moderators agrees, then penalties are applied for breaches of the site rules. No single moderator is going to take action against a user without consultation with other moderators, and we always discuss the situation first, unless it is a blatant, serious offence.

Basically, the way it works is :

1st offence = warning
2nd offence = 2 day suspension
3rd offence = 2 week suspension
4th offence = loss of membership.

We have all agreed that we will try to remain impartial and apply the rules fairly and without bias (which is sometimes difficult, but we DO try! ).


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## Dicco (May 2, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

The thing is he was never given a suspention.


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## lutzd (May 2, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

That's true, Dicco. However, these moderation methods have only been in force for the last month or so. Prior to that, we had no firm guidelines. However, I'm sure the situation was discussed by moderators before action was taken. The procedures I discussed (above) are _now_ the S.O.P. for moderators, unless it is a VERY serious offence. Even then, a member may only be suspended until it can be discussed amongst the moderators.

Remember that we are not online 24/7 (we have lives too! ), so sometimes it can take a while before a majority have the opportunity to give their opinions.


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## bigguy (May 2, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

Yes Erik's death was a tragedy whatever the reason. But as Sdaji stated the media are having a field day. If we are not carefull there could be repucutions that effect many of us.

This site is open to public viewing and we should endeavour not to give the media any more ammo by discussing the tragedy here on this thread. Please for the sake of the hoby, and for respect for Erik, try not to discuss or speculate what happened in open threads.

Fuscus, I think you did the right thing locking the other thread, but I wish you would also delete it from public veiwing.


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## herptrader (May 2, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

The suggestion in the the evening news which I find a bit of a worry is that the scrubbies had free range of his home which to me is irresponsible no matter how well behaved they usually are. Combine this with the other suggestion that he was completely blotto and tradgedy is a possible result.

The way this may effect the rest of us is that it can create preasure on the law makers to get certain species banned from private herpetoculturists. This is already the case in NSW were salties are not allowed, I assume, because they are considered too dangerous.

If you look at what has happened in many parts of the US large pythons and venemous reptiles have been banned in many places. IMHO this has come from the bad example set by people who chose to keep boas and other large snakes free ranging in their homes with the inevitable result.

If the herpers of Australia wish to be allowed to continue to keep animals that are dangerous if not suitably handled then I consider it inevitable that eventually there will be quite a few species that are commonly kept now that we will not be allowed to legally keep.

It is important that all of us a seen to be responsible and avoid situations where accidents are waiting to happen.


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## Sdaji (May 2, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*



> The suggestion in the the evening news which I find a bit of a worry is that the scrubbies had free range of his home which to me is irresponsible no matter how well behaved they usually are. Combine this with the other suggestion that he was completely blotto and tradgedy is a possible result.



This is a clear case of false information being dispensed. An all too common practice.

Erik's snakes were in secure, locked cages, they were not free range at the time, or at any point in the past.

I agree with bigguy when he says the other thread should be removed from public view and perhaps the topic should be left alone here at APS, at least for the time being. If the threads are not locked, please, don't post anything without good reason and most importantly, don't get involved with the speculation.


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## cwarren72 (May 2, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

I think it would be a sad state of affairs if we found ourselves in a situation here that this or any other matter which has been made public can not be discussed. The last time I checked we were living in and fighting for a democratic country? or have we become a communist country here and I hadn't realised? anyway the thing is wether or not we do or don't disuss the situation here is totoally irrelivant as the public being fed by the media will form their own opinions on the subject and in fact if we were discuss the manner as the hobbyist and professionals that we are then we could if anything shed some differing points of view onto the subject. Anyway that's what I think. As for Sxreturn??? well people either liked him or hated himand well I definately didn't like him. If you think that he was banned for nothing then you obviously haven't noticed anything he has said and done over the past year or so? I constantly would ask for clarification off the mods about things he would say as I have felt for a long time that he should have gone as he has on several occasions rubbished on this site and the Mods themselves. He would agree with anyone and everyone who would also makes comments to the same. The rules for life are pretty simple folks, if you don't like something that is around you and you can't change it then leave? no one is forced to come into this site nor are they forced to remain members but they have to abey some simple rules. Ask yourselves how would you feel if you invited someone into your home and then starter trashing it by telling you how crap it is and everything you loved in that house was ****? well it is along the same lines. That again is just the way I see it.


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## improvius (May 2, 2005)

Sorry, didn't mean to re-open a mess here. In any case, my condolences to his friends and family.

-Imp


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## SnakeWrangler (May 2, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*



cwarren72 said:


> I think it would be a sad state of affairs if we found ourselves in a situation here that this or any other matter which has been made public can not be discussed. The last time I checked we were living in and fighting for a democratic country? or have we become a communist country here and I hadn't realised? anyway the thing is wether or not we do or don't disuss the situation here is totoally irrelivant as the public being fed by the media will form their own opinions on the subject and in fact if we were discuss the manner as the hobbyist and professionals that we are then we could if anything shed some differing points of view onto the subject. Anyway that's what I think. As for Sxreturn??? well people either liked him or hated himand well I definately didn't like him. If you think that he was banned for nothing then you obviously haven't noticed anything he has said and done over the past year or so? I constantly would ask for clarification off the mods about things he would say as I have felt for a long time that he should have gone as he has on several occasions rubbished on this site and the Mods themselves. He would agree with anyone and everyone who would also makes comments to the same. The rules for life are pretty simple folks, if you don't like something that is around you and you can't change it then leave? no one is forced to come into this site nor are they forced to remain members but they have to abey some simple rules. Ask yourselves how would you feel if you invited someone into your home and then starter trashing it by telling you how crap it is and everything you loved in that house was poo? well it is along the same lines. That again is just the way I see it.


I completely agree...

As I said before, I hope the snake is not responsible, but really what are the chances its not?? I don't want to disrespect this man, but if it happened due to his irresponsibility then we need to been seen to stand up and say so, if we want to stop things like this from limiting our ability to keep these beautiful creatures we must be seen to not accept the actions of irresponsible keepers.

Now with that said, we do not have the cold hard facts, the possibility remains that it was an accident that had nothing to do with the snake, and if that is the case then I feel for this guy even more than I do now. I am sure in a day or two we will know for sure, you can bet that if the snake was responsible this is when the proverbial poo will hit the fan.

As cwarren said, this topic will be discussed, wouldn't you rather that people from our hobby get to at least have something to say rather than just hide and pretend it never happened. Trust me, no one else is going to stand up for us, that is for sure!!


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## bigguy (May 3, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

Yes guys, we do live in a Democracy, but alas we have no say in the laws governing animals that are loathed by the general public. Wouldnt the media have a field day reading comments stating we as a group of herps agree there are irresponsible keepers out there with dangerous snakes and we are seperating ourselves from them. Whos to say who is responsible or not. We are all tared with the same brush.

Years ago in SA there were 3 Taipan bites to keepers in several weeks. Result due to media response, Taipans were banned. In the US the same has happened in many states regarding venomous species and large Boids. And dont forget a little shooting in Tasmania by one irresponsible fellow. Result all semi auto guns banned due to media pressure Its going to happen hear if we are not carefull.

I again ask please do not discuss this subject or speculate what happened on this open forum. If you have to talk about it us the PM's that the media can not read. We do not need to give the media any more ammo that could and probably will be used to condem our hobbies


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## Linus (May 3, 2005)

> And dont forget a little shooting in Tasmania by one irresponsible fellow. Result all semi auto guns banned


 :shock: 

I think these are very different circumstances bigguy. I don't think too many people could argue the banning of those weapons in response to the port arthur massacre.


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## Fuscus (May 3, 2005)

> Years ago in SA there were 3 Taipan bites to keepers in several weeks. Result due to media response, Taipans were banned.


??? Taipans are not banned in SA, were they banned in NSW?

I agree with bigguy that this incident may affect our hobby but we do need to discuss it, in particular we need to raise the safety aspects. Pollies are unlikly to base any "decision" on what we say, but there could be pressure from others to ban the species
Anyhow if you go here you can read 12 conficting versions of the story
http://news.google.com.au/news?hl=e...page/0,5478,15149206%255E662,00.html&filter=0


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## nuthn2do (May 3, 2005)

> The Advertiser reported marks on the face of Erik Attmarsson were consistent with him being crushed to death by a snake


Personally I don't know who the reporter for the advertiser was, but it'd be safe to say they know squat about forensics or scrub pythons.


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## bigguy (May 3, 2005)

Fuscus, they may not be banned now, but I can assure you they were 10 to 15 years ago after the bites. Any of the older herps like Matt Bonnett from this site can confirm this.


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## URS (May 3, 2005)

Bigguy, Taipan were never banned from keeping here in SA.
Please have a read of this link it might be helpfull to anyone who is wanting to understand SA policy on keeping venomous snakes.

http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/biodiversity/pdfs/sop_keeping_venomous_snakes.pdf

Regards Tim


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## moosenoose (May 3, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*



herptrader said:


> It is important that all of us a seen to be responsible and avoid situations where accidents are waiting to happen.



Spot on Daavid! 

From what I've seen and heard, he was pretty full-on into the elapids. Perhaps he got a little too complacent with the Scrubbies? Having them scoot around the place uncaged sounds like a bit of a risky move ? considering they are an ambush predator! Then to be heavily drinking and alone alone with a snake that big can only be described as a disaster waiting to happen? I think sadly it?s a sad wake up call about the dangers that can arise from complacency.

I feel sorry for his friends and family and convey my deepest sympathies ? it?s an unnecessary and unfortunate accident. Hopefully it doesn't cause any knee-jerk reactions from the powers that be. Am I mistaken in saying that this would be the only recorded casualty related from a scrub python?


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## Magpie (May 3, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

I think the fact that this incident gets so many knee jerk responses from a herp site shows what sort of response we can expect from non-herpers (including the govt agencies responsible for herp laws).
Please people, wait for the autopsie at least before playing the blame game.


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## angua21 (May 3, 2005)

Linus said:


> > And dont forget a little shooting in Tasmania by one irresponsible fellow. Result all semi auto guns banned
> 
> 
> :shock:
> ...



the circumstances are no different. there are irresponsible people in every walk of life who have a major impact on others who are careful/responsible just because of one lapse of judgement or mistake. Its the same as the licensing laws for L and P platers being changed due to some young fools driving beyond their abilities and killing themselves, or base jumping made illegal in alot of places because of a few idiots who didnt quite make it. There are so many laws that have come about through the stupidity, irresponsibility, carelessness or poor judgement of just a few people, all due to the massive blow out of proportions the media feeds to the(lets be honest) gullible general public. Are you saying that everyone who owned a semi automatic firearm was just waiting for an opportunity to go on a massacre? That everyone should be punished for the actions of one mentally ill criminal? 

Propaganda comes in many forms on many topics and changes things way too fast when let run without a voice against. Lets all hope that it doesnt work against us in this instance, but denying the effect the media can have on the government over ANYTHING the public makes alot of noise about would be a mistake. Thinking that we as everyday people can't make a difference would also be a mistake. The thing about minorities is that they always feel that there arent enough of them. all it takes is a few voices making a stand for the rest of the affected party to realise that they are not the only ones, and if enough people are against something there at least has to be a discussion within the powers that be.


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## Greebo (May 3, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Tragedy*

Craig makes a good point. Who is to say that this isnt a feeding incident that went horribly wrong. There is nothing wrong in open discussion. This incident may have repercussions for us all but please let's not jump to conclusions.
This is an unusual tragedy and of course the media are going to have a field day with it. Hopefully they will soon move their attention on to something else. I have heard nothing further on the TV today.


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## Linus (May 3, 2005)

> the circumstances are no different



Really...  

Ok so a weapon that is designed to kill and maim humans and animals is *no *different to a native python???

I don't know how you can realistically argue this point. This guy may have put him self in danger and bring the keeping of big pythons in to question (worst case) but I hardly think we can compare that to the brutal murder of 35 people.

Obviously you are a gun fan and that is fine but how does this relate to the keeping of reptiles. Surely that's just arguing for the sake of it.

In any case I apologise for gettin goff topic here...but had to reply.


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## womas4me (May 3, 2005)

It was figurative speech, not literal, but the point is the same. The actions of an individual can effect the majority. Thats it.


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## angua21 (May 3, 2005)

thankyou womas, that was my point, which would have been gotten if my post had actually been read PROPERLY.


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## Linus (May 3, 2005)

Yes agreed Womas and Angua. The actions of a person can affect a majority and I hope that is not the case in this instance. It his human nature to try and fix something when a porblem arises so it is difficult to avoid. Sometimes it helps us...eg safer cars, no dui, fire codes etc etc...and sometimes it hinders us. We just have to hope that the law makers can see through the haze and make the right decision.

But I still think a killing spree is a little different to this so it's a bad example...which was all I was trying to say in my reply to Bob.

I read your post properly Angua but your inital comment was that it's no different to Port Arthur and I think you would agree that is not entirely true.


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## instar (May 3, 2005)

Its all speculation till the coroners report is in anyway. The scrubby/s in question may have constricted him after his death for all anyone knows, or not at all. Alcohol may or may not have been a factor, not to mention the guys vens. It seems a bit disrespectful for us to be arguing about his death at this point. Im sure the guys family and freinds would love to read this media induced gabfest....not! Poor bloke is gone either way, very sad. lets give it a rest till we know the facts atleast.


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## salebrosus (May 3, 2005)

How many people are attacked by pit bulls and killed each year by various breeds of dogs??????????? How many people each year die from snake bites? I got mauled my a pit bull while using a public phone and ended up with the coin slot up my butt sitting on the phone with the dog cornering me in the booth while police had a gun out and were hitting it with capsicum spray. No bans yet............. 

My condolensces to Eric and his family. 

Simone.


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## herptrader (May 3, 2005)

There are strong moves to restrict the ownership of Pit Bulls in Victoria if I recall correctly.

Also there are laws that see dangerous dogs put down.




johnbowemonie said:


> How many people are attacked by pit bulls and killed each year by various breeds of dogs??????????? How many people each year die from snake bites? I got mauled my a pit bull while using a public phone and ended up with the coin slot up my butt sitting on the phone with the dog cornering me in the booth while police had a gun out and were hitting it with capsicum spray. No bans yet.............
> 
> My condolensces to Eric and his family.
> 
> Simone.


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## instar (May 3, 2005)

Um, im not quite clear on how exactly you got the coin slot up ya butt Simone? please clarify? :lol:

....gal with a coin slot...hmmmm, theres a joke in that somewhere


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## salebrosus (May 3, 2005)

Hehehehehhe when this dog grabbed me buy the back of the leg and shook i half feell and it let go, i turned around and it lunged at me so i kicked it in the head. it fell back and i jumped onto the payphone with one leg stuck on one side of the glass and the other on the other side high up. I called 000 from the payphone and this dog was only just missing me so unfortunately the most comfrotable way was for the lump where the coins go resting on my butt.

When the cops turned up they asked if i was ok. Personally, i think they liked seeing me so flexible. I kindly told em in choice words i wasn't and could they please shoot it. The moment that scared me the most was when the dog finished barking and lay down in the doorway of the booth and sat there glaring at me giving me a low growl. This thing had mange all over its neck and had already tried to attack somone that morning but had escaped the police the first time around.

Just lucky i wasnt a 6 year old kid. To be honest the only time i cried was after i had my tetanus shot.

Simone.


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## instar (May 3, 2005)

So you didnt get "hung up" about the whole thing! :lol:


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## alexr (May 3, 2005)

> How many people are attacked by pit bulls


Well American Pit bulls appear to be banned now...(as of the 6pm news on Sydney Radio station TrippleM)


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## Mcdowelli (May 3, 2005)

Here is an email from Peter Mirtschin, hopefully some of you who prefer to speculate about someones death might show some more respect.




> The Death of Erik Attmarsson
> 
> We have been advised by the Nuriootpa police (Sgt. Bernadette Zimmermann),
> that we will not be furnished with any information from the coroner's report
> ...


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## herptrader (May 3, 2005)

I guess we will have to wait for the coroner's report before we really know what might have happened.

I doubt the media will have a lot to say about it if he just got a little drunk and fell down flat on his face causing an unlucky fatal injury.

I have a great dislike for how the media likes to "manufacture" news. (I refuse to watch/listen to commercial outlet current affairs programs as a result of this dislike.)


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## flavirufus (May 3, 2005)

> I have a great dislike for how the media likes to "manufacture" news.



.... and yet you continue to propogate this "manufactured news" by speculating in a public forum using heresay derived from the media!

For example:



> The suggestion in the the evening news which I find a bit of a worry is that the scrubbies had free range of his home which to me is irresponsible no matter how well behaved they usually are. Combine this with the other suggestion that he was completely blotto and tradgedy is a possible result.



and



> I doubt the media will have a lot to say about it if he just got a little drunk and fell down flat on his face causing an unlucky fatal injury.



Given the sensationalistic nature of the news reports, perhaps it'd be better to temper speculation until more hard facts come to light?

Regarding Bob's comments on taipans in SA, I remember the string of bites that occured. As Bob alluded to, and Tim showed in the documentation, this led to a restructuring and tightening of venomous snake keeping laws. I particularly remember a bite that was suffered by Rosa Levi. Luckily, after being in critical condition, she fully recovered (and went on to be awarded life membership to the SA Herpetology Group  ).


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## herptrader (May 3, 2005)

I thought that what I said was carefully worded. The term "suggestion" implies that I am not convinced that it is true.

If what was suggested did turn out to be true then it is irresponsible.



flavirufus said:


> > I have a great dislike for how the media likes to "manufacture" news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SnakeWrangler (May 3, 2005)

All I can say is that I never presumed to know 'hard facts', I have always said 'if'.

That letter doesn't change the fact that the snake was found outside of its enclosure, also, a snake of that size would crush bones if it constricted anyone, the snakes intention may not be to crush, but that would certainly happen with that kind of snake as an adult.

I never thought the issue we were discussing was this person's death specifically. That issue is that even if the snake was not responsible for the death, it should never have been out of its enclosure without at least two strong people present, but it was. Is anyone going to say that this was a responsible thing to do?

I do not want to disrespect this person, and I do not believe discussing it is disrespectful. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't, but don't think for a second that everyone has to stop because you don't like it.


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## Fuscus (May 5, 2005)

The overseas papers have got into the act. Note how they dispute the Advertisers report.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2005/05/04/1024917-ap.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005201800,00.html


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## PilbaraPythons (May 5, 2005)

SnakeWrangler
A snake that size would not crush human bones.


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## Fuscus (May 5, 2005)

Sane report from the local Barossa paper
http://barossa.yourguide.com.au/det...egory=general news&story_id=391340&y=2005&m=5
Geoff Coombes is a member of SAHG and owns a sister to my water pythons ( plus heaps of hots )


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## SnakeWrangler (May 7, 2005)

PilbaraPythons said:


> SnakeWrangler
> A snake that size would not crush human bones.


I was thinking more along the lines of breaking more than crushing. But yeah, I still think it would. I have felt the force that a small 2ft python can produce, I can imagine what kind of pressure would come from a 18ft+ python.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 7, 2005)

they can and do break and separate bones all the time


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## cwarren72 (May 7, 2005)

people I think we are getting away from the point here, the thing is that some have touched on here the pollies and the general public will form their own opinions but if we can even show just one person that if he was killed by his snake through negligents then we should seperate ourselves from him and let people know that we as keepers do not condone ill trealment or stupid behaviour of any kind. And if we can convince just one person of that then we are justified to talk about this. This case only highlights the fact that we don't agree with silly behaviour and yes I know we don't know all the facts and he may not have done anything wrong but don't confuse him in the issue of stupidity and/or neglect


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## PilbaraPythons (May 7, 2005)

ssssnakeman
Are you seriously suggesting that a large scrub python could break human bones? If one got hold of my great Grandma then I might believe it. Besides perhaps breaking a finger or two I am not convinced.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 7, 2005)

pb,not the best place to go into this,but yes i do think that a big pyhon can damage some human bones,...can we agree to disagree..here at least


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## PilbaraPythons (May 7, 2005)

Yeah no worries sssnakeman


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