# Guy at SA Venom Supplies Bitten



## rodentrancher (Jul 25, 2007)

Just heard tail end of a news item on ABC Radio. A guy at SA Venom Supplies bitten by a Venomous Snake. Didn't hear what type of snake it was. Exotic was mentioned though. Wish I had been listening properly. Cheers Cheryl


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## rodentrancher (Jul 25, 2007)

BUMP!! Anyone heard this on the news yet?


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## Dodie (Jul 25, 2007)

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22132358-2682,00.html

*AN EMPLOYEE at an anti-venom development company in the Riverland has been bitten by an exotic snake and taken to hospital in a serious condition.*
It is believed the man was bitten on the arm while "milking" a venomous snake at Venom Supplies, Tanunda, about 2.50pm.
Company owner Peter Mirtschin confirmed a male employee had been bitten and was given anti–venom before being taken to Tanunda Hospital. 
The company keeps more than 400 snakes from all over the world – every one of them is venomous.
They are all milked for their venom and after being freeze–dried, the venom is sent to research units to be made into anti–venom


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## da_donkey (Jul 25, 2007)

Thats not good news  Lets all keep our fingers crossed that he is ok and has no serious long tem effects.

Donk


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## Dodie (Jul 25, 2007)

Even though I know nothing about the effects of venom or which snake it was, I'd say he has a great chance of a full recovery. He would of had the anti-venom in his system within 10 minutes I say. But yes, fingers crossed..


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## scorps (Jul 25, 2007)

wonder what type of snake


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## thesilverbeast (Jul 25, 2007)

this is way off topic but how hard is it to get into venom supplies as a profession? is it an alright paying job? im guessing it wouldn't be otherwise many would be doing it!


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## Dodie (Jul 25, 2007)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/health/milking-with-a-bite-to-it/2005/09/22/1126982153524.html

^ Says there are only two nenom farms in Aus (article is 2 years old) so i'd guess it'd be rather difficult.

They'd want to pay them well... 

*PRICE OF POISON*
At Venom Supplies:
 A gram of brown snake venom costs *$1560*.
 Poison from a death adder costs *$1830*.
 Black tiger snake venom costs *$650*.
 Toxin from a snub-nosed viper costs *$3890*.


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## Sanchez (Jul 25, 2007)

Thesilverbeast, try PMing Jonno from ERD.


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## Tatelina (Jul 25, 2007)

It's bound to happen eventually.. I wonder if the hospitals would be better equipped if it was a native.. Hmm..
Hope he hasn't got any long lasting damage.


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## da_donkey (Jul 25, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> It's bound to happen eventually.. I wonder if the hospitals would be better equipped if it was a native.. Hmm..
> Hope he hasn't got any long lasting damage.


 
I does not make any differance at all if it is native or not, Venom supplies would have all the antivenom they need for whatever species was being milked.


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## ilovepythons (Jul 25, 2007)

It does make alot of a difference....there is less exotic species specific antivenom in the country for a start. Very few doctors have treated snakebite, let alone exotic snake bite previously, the antivenom in some cases can be of a lesser standard meaning an increased risk of side effects and so on....


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## Kali7 (Jul 25, 2007)

thesilverbeast said:


> this is way off topic but how hard is it to get into venom supplies as a profession? is it an alright paying job? im guessing it wouldn't be otherwise many would be doing it!



Depends on what you mean by hard. A medical or biomedical degree in toxicology would be a good entry point. 

It would also depend on whether you wanted to be a technician or a researcher. You need doctorate qualifications for the latter, and it would be a harder field to enter if you only had the former.

Technicians don't earn much, and doctors wages vary.


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## da_donkey (Jul 25, 2007)

ilovepythons said:


> It does make alot of a difference....there is less exotic species specific antivenom in the country for a start. Very few doctors have treated snakebite, let alone exotic snake bite previously, the antivenom in some cases can be of a lesser standard meaning an increased risk of side effects and so on....


 
Can you explain for me why you think that Venom supplies does not have enough antivenom for a single bite from a species that they milk on a regular basis and why it is of a lesser standard (and lesser standed compared to what).

Im not having a go, just trying to understand your statement.

cheers 

donk


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## Mrs I (Jul 25, 2007)

I heard on the news it was a Mexican Cantle??? Not sure if i heard right.

it was his first experience of milking a snake for venom.......


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## ilovepythons (Jul 25, 2007)

I did not say that they don't have enough antivenom, what i'm saying is that in Australia there are limited supplies of exotic antivenom. Often the only institutions that hold exotic antivenoms are the places where venomous exotic snakes are kept. Its not as easy as walking into a hospital and saying you need Mamba Antivenom. As far as i'm aware there isn't actually any mamba antivenom in Australia as none are kept in legally in the country. For example, the last exotic bite that occured at a zoo in Australia ended up using up all the Crofab Rattlesnake antivenom in the country. This prevented any rattlesnakes in zoos in Australia from being cleaned / fed / having the cage door opened until there was more antivenom for this species in the country. 

All antivenom for exotic species needs to be sourced from overseas, and is almost always manufactured in the country where the snake is native too. Eg Rattlesnake antivenom is made in America, King Cobra antivenom is made in Thailand etc. Because of this and slight differences in the process of antivenom manufacturing this can lead to side effects upon administration of the antivenom.

My statement about possible side effects was based upon a comparison of some exotic antivenoms compared to that of Australia. We are lucky that our antivenoms are relatively 'clean' reducing the risk of side effects however that risk is always there. Same applies to any foreign protein based substance being injected into a human. 

Exotic bites often also present different symptoms to that of natives...do a google search for rattlesnake, viper or cobra bites and you'll see what i mean.

This, combined with most doctors inexperience of treating exotic snake bites makes it a bit of a different situation than it would be if it was the bite of a native species.

Hope this has cleared some things up.


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## ihaveherps (Jul 25, 2007)

I think Donk was referring moreso to the fact that if the snake was at venom supplies, it would of been there for the purpose of milking for anti-venom production, therefore the necessary anti-venom would be produced by them and not be inferior to native anti-venoms since its production would be the same as for the Aussie elapids.


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## dpeica (Jul 25, 2007)

Ihh


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## ihaveherps (Jul 25, 2007)

Dp!


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## BlindSnake (Jul 25, 2007)

yes it was a mexican cantle that got him on the finger when trying to milk his first snake.


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## PremierPythons (Jul 25, 2007)

Cantil...


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## BlindSnake (Jul 25, 2007)

opps thats some bad spelling...sorry.


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## MrBredli (Jul 25, 2007)

Milking snakes would be so much safer if they just used venomoids.


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## ilovepythons (Jul 25, 2007)

No exotic antivenom is produced for in Australia.....their exotic venoms go towards research purposes.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jul 25, 2007)

G'day guys,

I just typed a big long response and when I hit "reply" I got the white screen of death. They can put man on the moon but they can't make computers work properly.

I'll go through and answer, correct and comment on some of the things in this thread.

One of the new, young blokes at Venom Supplies was bitten this afternoon by a Mexican Cantil, _Agkistrodon bilineatus_, a South American pit viper that is notorious for its bad temper and general difficulty in milking. I won't divulge the bitten guys name, as it hasn't hit the media yet and he may not want people knowing yet. Unfortunately, it couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke, and by the sounds of it it was a silly mistake the everyone makes.

He hasn't had antivenom adminstered as yet. The won't administer antivenom to anyone until they are in intensive care, with their vitals been monitored, and then they will only adminster it once you start showing sufficient symptoms. 

This is Venom Supplies first exotic snake bite, something that is highly commendable after over 15 years of operation. It has been over 3 years since their previous bite from a Coastal Taipan, so they definitely have their techiniques and procedures honed.

Venom Supplies have sufficient antivenom on hand for multiple bites from every species of exotic the keep. They are in regular contact with both Tanunda Hospital and Adelaide Hospital to confirm that they have antivenom for all species of native venomous snake. They also have an exotic snakebite protocol with details of everything a doctor could want to know, plus they are in regular contact with Julian White, Australias best envenomation doctor who is currently looking after the bitten employee. No stone is left unturned when it comes to safety...I should know, I did all of the above when I worked there.

On to the stuff not concerning the bite...

Australia is lucky in that we have the best antivenom in the world. My understanding of how venom and antivenom work is very limited, but the general gist of it is that compared to exotic species, our snakes venom is very "clean", and therefore so is our antivenom. I believe this is to be attributed to the highly neurotoxic components of our snakes venom, which is neraly completely reversed by antivenom. Again, my understanding of how this works in a clinical scenario isn't crash hot.

Getting in to the industry isn't easy, but it is definitely possible. When a job becomes available there, they receive between 100 and 200 applications. However, it isn't all action and glory like some people expect. It can actually become quiet boring. The one thing that it is good for is making handling venomous snakes like second nature, you can literally do it with your eyes closed. You can learn to manipulate and make even the flightiest elapids do exactly what you want with little effort, something that isn't recreatable in a private captivity setting. Watching someone like Nathan Dunstan or the late Tim Nias handle a venomous snake is amazing. 

The money isn't fantastic, but it is at the higher end of the spectrum in the reptile industry, especially considering nobody there has formal qualifications. 5 out of 6 days is cleaning/feeding the collection, 1 day is milking.

Hope this helps,

Jonno


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## urodacus_au (Jul 25, 2007)

ihaveherps said:


> I think Donk was referring moreso to the fact that if the snake was at venom supplies, it would of been there for the purpose of milking for anti-venom production, therefore the necessary anti-venom would be produced by them and not be inferior to native anti-venoms since its production would be the same as for the Aussie elapids.



Yep, was my understanding too. And with these animals are being milked on the premises youd presume appropriate antivenom would be kept on hand regardless of whether or not it was produced by that particular organisation.

Obviously doctors knowledge will vary as far as monitoring of the patient and treating for the effects of the venom, but thats the case with any snake bite be it exotic or not.
Jordan


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## Macca (Jul 25, 2007)

Ilovepythons is very much accurate in that the doctors in Australia have very little to no experience treating exotic venomous snake bites. Upon treatment, a great deal of close attention must go to when to give the antivenom and how much to give. This kind of knowledge usually comes from previous case studies and experience, of which Australian doctors have little.

For a cantil (Agkistrodon bilineatus) (which has been stated in a post above to have bitten the employee), the antivenom used would be Bioclon Antivipmyn, which is prodcued in Mexico. This antivenom is used for a number of the American pitvipers and was used in the other case mentioned above when a keeper elsewhere was bitten a number of years ago. Venom Supplies do not actually produce the antivenom themselves, they milk the snakes and sell the venom or venom products, in addition to doing lots of research. Australian antivenoms are produced at CSL.

We definitely can think ourselves very lucky in Australia to have a reliable source of genus-specific antivenoms for our snakes of highest medical significance. This is a luxury very few countries in the world have or are ever likely to have.

Cheers,

Macca


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## da_donkey (Jul 25, 2007)

Thanks for clearing up a few things guys, and back to the point, lets hope the youg fella is ok


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## rodentrancher (Jul 25, 2007)

Must have been in the news Jonno, as I heard it on the ABC Radio this arvo approx 4.30pm. SA time that is. Cheers Cheryl. PS. Hope the guy recovers ok eh?


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## cement (Jul 25, 2007)

Yep, all the best to you mate, hope pull through ok


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## rodentrancher (Jul 25, 2007)

Dodie said:


> http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22132358-2682,00.html
> 
> *AN EMPLOYEE at an anti-venom development company in the Riverland has been bitten by an exotic snake and taken to hospital in a serious condition.*
> It is believed the man was bitten on the arm while "milking" a venomous snake at Venom Supplies, Tanunda, about 2.50pm.
> ...



Was not in the Riverland - Barossa Valley = near Tanunda to be exact!


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## PremierPythons (Jul 25, 2007)

I know alot of pit viper bites are dry bites... Anyone know if this was the case here?


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## Jonno from ERD (Jul 26, 2007)

G'day guys,

He walked out of hospital at midday today, without receiving any antivenom. It was very quick, single fang bite, so either very little or no venom was injected - I bet he considers himself very lucky!

Cheers

Jonno


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## moosenoose (Jul 26, 2007)

Well that's good news he's alright.



MrBredli said:


> Milking snakes would be so much safer if they just used venomoids.



Oh yes, and freehandling such venomous creatures requires the upmost of bravery :lol:


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## PremierPythons (Jul 26, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> G'day guys,
> 
> He walked out of hospital at midday today, without receiving any antivenom. It was very quick, single fang bite, so either very little or no venom was injected - I bet he considers himself very lucky!
> 
> ...



Great news! As I said above there I'm sure I read somewhere that statistically over a quarter of pit viper bites are dry.. 

All's well that ends well...

Andrew


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## krusty (Jul 26, 2007)

Dodie said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/news/health/milking-with-a-bite-to-it/2005/09/22/1126982153524.html
> 
> ^ Says there are only two nenom farms in Aus (article is 2 years old) so i'd guess it'd be rather difficult.
> 
> ...



so i better not let my snub-nosed viper get me hey............lol.


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## GravelRash (Jul 27, 2007)

ouch... hehehehe.... 

I've just finished reading all the posts n sum valuable info frm sum clever ppl... This was extremely interesting...Thanx


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## falconboy (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder how the guy is going to feel next time he needs to do some milking. Nervous I bet.


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## nickamon (Jul 27, 2007)

Glad to know the young guy is ok! 



falconboy said:


> I wonder how the guy is going to feel next time he needs to do some milking. Nervous I bet.


 
I bet he'll be nervous too, but hopefully that won't stop him from going back to work.


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## shamous1 (Jul 27, 2007)

*Well said Donk*




da_donkey said:


> Can you explain for me why you think that Venom supplies does not have enough antivenom for a single bite from a species that they milk on a regular basis and why it is of a lesser standard (and lesser standed compared to what).
> 
> Im not having a go, just trying to understand your statement.
> 
> ...



I'm with Donk. If they are regularly milking these animals they will have anti-venom on hand.


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## Tatelina (Nov 10, 2007)

Dodie said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/news/health/milking-with-a-bite-to-it/2005/09/22/1126982153524.html
> 
> ^ Says there are only two nenom farms in Aus (article is 2 years old) so i'd guess it'd be rather difficult.
> 
> ...



I thought calling snakes venom 'poison' was technically incorrect?


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## Jen (Nov 10, 2007)

off topic sort of, but whats the difference between anti-venom, and anti -venine?


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## PremierPythons (Nov 10, 2007)

None. As far as I know it's different names for the same thing...


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 10, 2007)

Antivenin was the original name for Antivenom...somewhere along the line they changed the name


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## falconboy (Nov 10, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> I thought calling snakes venom 'poison' was technically incorrect?




I dunno, but if you buy a gram and put it in your hubbies drink, you'd be considered having poisoned him, not envenomated him. 

(Note: not sure if spiking a drink with venom would work - I guess it would but someone else could confirm.)


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## Sdaji (Nov 10, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> I thought calling snakes venom 'poison' was technically incorrect?



That's a myth which snake keepers love to spread, amusingly, this myth is often brought up by snake people during discussions where they are attempting to dispell myths about snakes which are propagated by non snake-enthusiasts. Venom is a more precise word and a better one to use, but poison is still correct. The justification used by those who spread the myth (almost invariably believing it themselves) is that you can ingest snake venom without it harming you, so "surely it's not poisonous, like a toadstool", but any substance which can cause harm through a chemical process is a poison, so clearly, snake venom does indeed count. Interestingly, most dictionaries mention snake venom under their entries for 'poison'.

Antivenom and antivenene are two names for the same thing. Both names are commonly used.


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## rodentrancher (Nov 10, 2007)

OMG this is an old thread of mine Sdaji. thought everyone would have forgotten about it by now?? Cheers Cheryl


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## Hetty (Nov 10, 2007)

If you read back you'll see Tatelina 'bumped' it up.


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## Sdaji (Nov 10, 2007)

Yeah, I was surprised to see it resurrected! When I saw it active I thought someone else had been bitten! At first I was also surprised to see you'd posted a thread; I haven't seen you active for a while! (maybe I'm just not looking hard enough!).

I saw the 'no such thing as a poisonous snake' myth pop up and couldn't help jumping in  Snake people are compulsive myth busters you see


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## rodentrancher (Nov 10, 2007)

ok no probs, is ok nothing. Cheers Cheryl


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## rodentrancher (Nov 10, 2007)

Yeah Sdaji still around. Had a go at Adelaide peeps and their darn gardens and watering a week or so ago. I think the post was It Never Rains but it Poors or something like that. Cheers Cheryl


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## Bung-Eye (Nov 10, 2007)

what's with the sudden trend of reviving threads that are three months old?


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## Tatelina (Nov 14, 2007)

Bung-Eye said:


> what's with the sudden trend of reviving threads that are three months old?



Maybe because they missed it first time round and thought it was interesting? 
Besides I often don't check when people post if I come across threads randomly.


falconboy said:


> I dunno, but if you buy a gram and put it in your hubbies drink, you'd be considered having poisoned him, not envenomated him.
> 
> (Note: not sure if spiking a drink with venom would work - I guess it would but someone else could confirm.)


I'm sure an expert will correct me if I'm wrong...but I think if you have ulcers along your digestive track anywhere and the venom enters your blood stream...that's when it starts affecting you like it's intended too.


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