# Minimum caging standards for reptiles



## JeffHardy (Feb 15, 2006)

NSW Dept of Environment and Conservation is presently examining the feasibility of introducing legislation to set basic standards for the housing and husbandry of reptiles kept by hobbists. Issues to be covered include minimum size, heat, light (incl UV), food, water, cage furniture, protection from predators etc.

I would appreciate input.

Jeff Hardy
Coordinator Wildlife Licensing
NSW DEC (NPWS)


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## Gilleni (Feb 15, 2006)

I think it will be very difficult as it would have to be species specific as they all have different requirements..

and what if they say for example. a coastal carpet needs a 4 foot enclosure.. What about hatchlings?

And in regards to UV, it is still very debatable whetther some speceis need it or not..

I might be way off though and missread you post, but that what i recon so far..


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## Samma3l (Feb 15, 2006)

I think that once everything has been nutted out it will be a good idea. It will mean that someone off the street will be able to walk into a pet shop and ask "I want a carpet python, what kind of enclosure do I need?" and instead of the petshop giving an answer like "this will do you for so many years, then you will need this..." the petshop can go "This is what the NPWS legislation says you must have for this kind of snake..." Taking alot of confusion out for first time buyers.

perhaps a minimum standard level and then a "NPWS recommends" level?


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## Gilleni (Feb 15, 2006)

Your point sounds very good and it would be great fo 1st time reptile buyers..

But it could cause alot of problems for long time owners and breeders if say they ruled out tubs for hatchlings and said that all hatchling coastal carpet pythons need UV...

Or they could be on the safe side and say a beardie can live in a 3ft tank, then everyone thinks this is the right size for an adult or even worse a pair of adults.. because NPWS said.

It may work very well, im just unsure how they will work it.. and how it will be decided what is the standard.


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## Samma3l (Feb 15, 2006)

perhaps a table detailing the requirements detailling the requirements for age or length e.g. for hatchlings it says a click clack is ok then at yearling or so many inches then you need an enclosure or x by x as a minimum with certain other requirements included. One table each for snakes, lizards, turtles etc. 

A simple table in an annex to the licence info would be fairly easy to understand such as something that has:
Pythons(*)
Hatchlings: [enclosure size min/max], [food type & timing], [water bowl size], [hide required yes/no] other specifics etc
Yearling:
Juvenile:
Adult:
And so on and then a 
(*)Diamond Pythons require x amount of UV light per day,

In table format of course. Then continued for each other type of reptile.

I cant imagine the legislation not taking into account that people will be breeding and have the requirements reflecting what the general concensus is. Of course some people may have to improve their standards for their herps, but that always happens when a set of rules comes out


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## JeffHardy (Feb 15, 2006)

What DEC is looking at are more generic standards than specific ones. eg, provide adequate food, water (drinking and bathing), and shelter to meet the generally accepted needs of the specific animal and hygiene requirements such as removal of uneaten food.


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## Gilleni (Feb 15, 2006)

So it is just a legislation so you can pin people for poor Husbandry..


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## herptrader (Feb 15, 2006)

I presume you have looked at the Victorian guidelines? (If not there is a link from the VHS web site.)

The advantage that guidelines have over legislation is that they are more open to interpretation and any given situation can be defended as appropriate or not for given situation. In a sense guidelines are just as enforcible as legislation under existing animal cruelty laws. The last thing I would want to see is the RSPCA marching some poor herper off to court because his childreni enclosure was only 180mm high and not the legislated 200mm minimum height for example.

Problems I believe you are likely to encounter when defining the "rules" (either legislation or guide lines) are:

1)That the minimum (as opposed to the optimum) can become the standard.

2) Husbandry practices evolve quite quickly and what is considered adequate one week might become inadequate when our understanding of the species improves. The rules need to allow for this. (Victoria's laws suffer from this sort of problem in the way the schedules are defined. Some species that make excellent and hardy captives cannot be kept here because insuficient flexibility was built into the schedules when they were defined.)

3) Who is going to enforce these rules? Will it end up in the hands of an organisation such as the RSPCA (who's stated policy is that reptiles should not be kept), the police - who are generally not herpers and already have enough to do, the department (expecting an increase in staff Jeff?). There is also issues of access, inspection warrants etc.

Other questions that come to mind:

1) What are these rules designed to achieve?
2) Who is going to interpret them?
3) Will they apply to Zoos, professional breeders and private herpers alike?

Good luck Jeff, be very careful how you open this can of worms ;-)


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

Reptile husbandry is so poorly understood and so often what one keeper finds to be necessary will kill the same species in another person's collection. It is quite absurd to put fixed rules in place about how to look after reptiles. We all know of that exceptional individual which needs to be kept in a very small enclosure to prevent it from freaking out, the snake which is better off without a hide, etc etc. UV has been mentioned, I've sold snakes to people who have read the Victorian guidelines and thought they need to keep their hatchling python under UV. This freaks them out, they're nocturnal, they're terrified of bright light, the snakes won't feed, they call me wondering why. No doubt some of them don't bother calling me. Even the experts on individual species don't agree on the best way to keep them, everyone who has been involved with reptiles for a few years knows that what works for one keeper won't necessarily work for everyone. We also know that a lot of the conventional wisdom on reptile husbandry turns out to be untrue.

To put this information out as a guideline is very dangerous, particularly as many people will get this small pamphlet and think that they suddenly know all they need.

I went into this in a little more detail on the other site you posted the issue on.


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## steve6610 (Feb 15, 2006)

hi jeff,
my vote doesn't really count as i'm in qld, but my guess is it's going to be to hard to get this right, just look at some different opinions just on something as a thermastat, just ask trueblue, if it became law to use thermastats how would people like trueblue and myself go if we moved to nsw as we don't believe in using them, thats just one thing that will cause confusion, i'll watch this thread to see what other people think, 

cheers,
steve..........
ps. i think more time should be put into getting a standard set of rules for australia wide instead of all the different rules for each state,


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## kahn_10 (Feb 15, 2006)

my vote doesnt count either but i think that Sdaji,herptrader, gilleni have raised some excellent points and i agee with them 100%


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 15, 2006)

Some of the problems that I have had with the code of practice in Queensland covering husbandry, is that those rules in the code were not always practical or always suitable for many species. Clearly the rules were set in place with out taking in to consideration some of the slightly different needs of so many species e.g. rainforest compared to desert species. As example when I was living in Babinda far North Queensland which is arguably the wettest place in Australia, the humidity was unbelievable and thus became a problem with some of the desert dwelling species. The problem was that as according to the code of practice I was to provide a water dish large enough for the occupant to fully submerge its self, consequently there became no practical way of limiting that humidity because of having to have such a large water dish. Had I only been keeping say jungle carpets or pink tongues then there would not have been a problem.
As most of us very well know many desert species do not have the constant luxury of water in such volume that they can swim in it on a daily basis and further more some desert lizards will seldom drink from a water dish instead preferring a mist.
The obvious answer for me at the time would have been to provide a very small drinking container every second day with little surface area thus reducing ambient humidity and on occasions offer a bowl bigger enough for full body emersion particularly around time of shed cycle.

Although I clearly knew at the time what the reptiles needs were to keep them healthy, the code of practice did not allow for such flexibility and therefore potentially put my reptiles at risk of respiratory illness. Back then I chose to ignore that part of the code of practice, and fortunately for me I was never held to task over this. This little scenario just high lights the point that individual reptile species needs (with in reason) should be considered if any code is going to be successfully embraced.

Making keeper to provide UV for nocturnal species would be in my opinion would be very harsh, and cause a logistical nightmare for any keeper currently using plastic tubs in a rack setup that today is so commonly used.

Although I fully support the need to have rules, I sincerely hope that this is achieved by consultation with the most experienced keepers of the reptile species that such welfare rules are will be written to protect. The fact that Jeff Hardy has asked for opinions on this forum I think shows that his department are serious in trying to get this right which is a great start.

Cheers Dave


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## MrBredli (Feb 15, 2006)

I think you should just charge an extra $10 for new license applications (not renewals), and give new licensee's a copy of John Weigel's Care Of Australian Repitles In Captivity with their license


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## Retic (Feb 15, 2006)

I would imagine it will be completely unworkable and unenforcable. There are enormous variables, it may seem inhumane to house hatchlings in tiny little containers but they thrive because they feel secure. What if the regulation says a hatchling carpet needs a cage 2 feet x 1 x 1 ? 
How can you regulate how much light a persons animals get or exactly what temperature they are kept at for what length of time each day ? How can you legally keep track of what people feed their animals and how much ? 
The idea of having a standard is a good idea in principal as it should theoretically improve the standard of keeping but in reality it would probably achieve nothing as people will find it impossible to stick to all the rules all the time.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 15, 2006)

We actually have adult wild caught BHPs that were kept in relatively small quarantine plastic tubs in a rack system, and when placed in to a large cage after their quarantine period was up and even when provided with a hide box became difficult feeders. After putting them back into the smaller containers they reverted back to feeding again. Work that one out? Admittedly the wild caught senario that we deal with is alot different situation than most would face with captive bred animals though.


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

What you describe isn't unusual at all. Most of us probably have lost count of the exceptional reptiles they've heard of which don't follow the normal rules. In another thread today I was talking about a pair of brown tree snakes I know of, which were kept in large enclosures for a couple of years and were never all that happy and wouldn't breed. When placed into tiny cages the size of shoeboxes, they seemed happier and bred the following two seasons. According to any 'rules' this would be cruel and if it was a law, this would be illegal, but it was what was best for those individual snakes. Anyone not familiar with those individuals would have said it was bad, but the keeper knew best and the snakes were happy.


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## NoOne (Feb 15, 2006)

Tell em their dreamin Jeff, as what everyone else said, it would be just to broad to make it worth while doing, yes they could slap some garbage together if they wanted but no one is going to follow it or even care that it's been done.
Would be just to hard, unless they covered just about everything for every species and that would have to be a big book.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 15, 2006)

Poor old Big guy has coped abuse over the years by people claiming that it is cruel to keep snakes in cages and Bob has what I consider large display cages. The thing that people often don't realise is that unlike many animals , snakes are cryptozoic.


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

A very big book indeed. Go to any serious reptile keeper's house and have a look at their book collection. Many of us have spent thousands of dollars on reptile books. These days it's not uncommon for people two spend two or three hundred dollars on one reptile book, sometimesmuch more. We go to huge lengths to learn as much as we possibly can, and we're still not satisfied, we know there is a heck of a lot more to know, most of it isn't yet known. We also know that if you ask five different people or read five different books, you'll get five different answers, some will be wrong, some will be right and many of the right ones will be contradictory, but all will be valuable and in many cases, getting the different ideas will be necessary for a keeper to be able to find a method which works for them. A free pamphlet can't possibly hope to supply people with what is needed, but will give new keepers a false sense of security.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 15, 2006)

I would have to say that a guide line wether it be in pamphlet form or otherwise would be benificial if the keeper reading it knew little in the first place .Clearly the licencing requirements at the moment inregards to not having to prove that you know anything at all about correct reptile husbandry, this could easily be a reality.


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## bigguy (Feb 15, 2006)

Jeff

Many new licencees have not got a clue how to keep any reptiles. They apply and get a RK licence, buy the first reptile they can find and think you can just throw it into a glass tank without heating, substrates, hides etc and think it will survive.

As many have allready stated each species has specific needs. Most snakes thrive in small tubs and suffer in large encloseures. It would be unrealistic to have a set of standards governing how to keep the animal or minimum cage sizes. The Mobile Exhibitors Association is currently negotiating with the Ag Dept over their totally unrealistic reptile keeping drafts written by people who HAVE NEVER kept a reptile in their lives.

The best way to improve reptile standards is to make sure the new applicant has a basic understanding of reptile husbandry. When someone applies for a RK licence, why not send the applicant a simple reptile keeping knowledge test and say a book like Weigels keeping in captivity. This way they would have to read the book to find the answers, and by doing so get a basic understanding of keeping protocals. If they fail, do not issue them a licence.


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## africancichlidau (Feb 15, 2006)

> Go to any serious reptile keeper's house and have a look at their book collection. Many of us have spent thousands of dollars on reptile books. These days it's not uncommon for people two spend two or three hundred dollars on one reptile book, sometimesmuch more. We go to huge lengths to learn as much as we possibly can, and we're still not satisfied, we know there is a heck of a lot more to know, most of it isn't yet known. We also know that if you ask five different people or read five different books, you'll get five different answers, some will be wrong, some will be right and many of the right ones will be contradictory, but all will be valuable and in many cases, getting the different ideas will be necessary for a keeper to be able to find a method which works for them. A free pamphlet can't possibly hope to supply people with what is needed, but will give new keepers a false sense of security.



Never thought it would come to this but I agree!!


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## herptrader (Feb 15, 2006)

Sounds like John Weigel could do well out of this thread:

His book:







Is available from the Herp Shop for just $20 (and other places also for $???). It is an excellent read, covers the basics well and *is* value for money.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 15, 2006)

To add to what Bob has said, that test would also weed out the half hearted impulse buyers as well.


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## steve6610 (Feb 15, 2006)

hi,
we have a coastal male that is in a 4x2x2 foot cage, we were told he had to be moved into a higher cage as coastals liked to climb, we tried this and he didn't like it, he stoped eating and even drinking, just stayed in his hide all the time, the thing is he was raised in his old cage since he was 12 months old, he was almost 2 1/2 when we tryed to move him, we put him back into his cage after about a month, he went straight to his water bowl, ( same bowl as the other cage ) and drank for ages, he started eating and never looked back, this season he fathered 58 hatchlings to 3 females, in my opinion he would have died if we didn't put him back into his old cage, the point i'm making is that only the owner can really know what his or her reptiles really like, every reptile is different and i think that set rules will be bad for the reptiles on a whole, i agree with bigguy, make them pass a test about basic keeping requirerments for different reptiles, 

cheers,
steve.......


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

What would you put on the test? If I just wanted to keep a bearded dragon, would I need to answer questions about snake husbandry? If I only wanted to keep a carpet python, would I have to answer questions about turtles and frogs? Could I slip through the cracks by telling them I only want a turtle, then getting a snake six months later?

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea, just offering food for thought.

I personally like the idea of telling people they need to do a lot of research, putting them in touch with a reptile society and letting them do it. If you offer them information and then make them pass a test, they'll think they know all they need to. They have passed the test, surely this intuitively tells you you're ready. After putting myself through years of study, I know that you can pass tests and exams without knowing anything and I also know that some people know a lot but are for some reason inept when it comes to tests. I don't like the idea of anything of this sort which gives people a feeling of accomplishment before getting their license as we don't want people to think they know it all, when really they know nothing. Learning about husbandry should be an ongoing process. I've learned a reasonable amount over the years, but even when considering the species I've personally written husbandry articles on, I very much feel the need to learn a lot more and I know that with more knowledge I will be able to care for my animals better than I can currently. My Bynoe's Gecko article last year is a good example. I'm well known for being very interested in Bynoe's Geckoes, I'm reasonably well known for producing them (I get a few requests for babies every week) and I recieved a lot of good feedback about my article on them, much to my surprise (I didn't think much of it). To be honest, I feel I have a very long way to go with this species, I know I can keep them a lot happier than I currently do, but as yet, haven't been able to learn how to. I know there are many people with a lot less experience than I have, keeping animals in worse conditions than mine, who think they are doing everything that could possibly be done for their animals. These people are generally very well intentioned, but misinformed. In the end, it really does come down to the individual's desire to learn as much as they can. Whatever test you put up, it will be possible to pass without really knowing anything of value, so what would be acheived by making people do it? Someone who doesn't care will still pass the test, I'm sure (I'd be interested to see a tentative list of questions). I really do think we'd be doing more harm than good. I think the best thing to do is to point out to all new licensees, very clearly and boldly, that reptiles require special care and it is imperative that the species is researched before it is obtained. They should also be given the contact details of an herpetological society.


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## instar (Feb 15, 2006)

What about satisfactory completion of a hands on course (keeping that particular species plus basics) led by an experienced keeper, who would pass or fail you. maybe over a weekend? Ie you would need to be certified that you are able to care for it before you are licensed?
this would exclude impulse buys. Thoughts?


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## steve6610 (Feb 15, 2006)

good points sdaji, you got my vote, 

cheers,
steve..........


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

So I have to do a course for every new species I want? There are some species which aren't kept in all states, there are some species which only one or two people keep. There are two species which no one in Victoria (legally) keeps but me. Do I have to give courses to anyone I sell babies to? Apart from being completely unworkable, you'd again have the 'I now know all I need to' problem. I think this is one thing we should leave as it is, or in the case of states like Vic and QLD, get rid of.


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## Magpie (Feb 15, 2006)

Why only reptiles? There should be a course for anyone who wants to keep anything; cats, dogs, spiders, guinea pigs, rats.
Children should be a 2 year graduate level course!
And to think we used to rely on common sense and helping each other out.


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## bigguy (Feb 15, 2006)

Instar, does that mean they have to do a course for every species they want. Plus people may live away from areas where courses may be held. Plus you now have a large cost factor for the courses.

Sdaji, the test would have to be on basic husbandry for snakes, lizards; and turtles. You never would know what species anyone would want to keep, so it has to be based on a general all round basic knowledge. New licencees should also be encouraged to seek further keeping requirements from breeders they purchase from.

Yes I agree, some people do badly at tests, but at least this way new licence holders have to know the most simplest of basics of reptile keeping. The current method anyone, with no knowledge whatsoever on reptile keeping, can get a licence, buy a reptile and slowly kill it due to poor keeping.


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

bigguy said:


> Instar, does that mean they have to do a course for every species they want. Plus people may live away from areas where courses may be held. Plus you now have a large cost factor for the courses.
> 
> Sdaji, the test would have to be on basic husbandry for snakes, lizards; and turtles. You never would know what species anyone would want to keep, so it has to be based on a general all round basic knowledge. New licences should also be encouraged to seek further keeping requirements from breeders they purchase from.



I'd be pretty pissed off if I only wanted a turtle but had to pass a snake husbandry course. This would lead to an exacerbation of the problem we already have, of people saying "screw this license rubbish, I'm just going to get one and not tell anyone".


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

Magpie said:


> Why only reptiles? There should be a course for anyone who wants to keep anything; cats, dogs, spiders, guinea pigs, rats.
> Children should be a 2 year graduate level course!
> And to think we used to rely on common sense and helping each other out.



You've summed my thoughts up there quite well.

Maybe we should also supply everyone with padded clothing in case they fall over. I've bought sharp knives which I use in the kitchen to cut up vegetables and meat, I probably should have done a "knife use and safety" course. We should probably introduce a swimming license too, more people die swimming than from many other activities which you need to be licensed to do.

If people have to work things out for themselves, they're more likely to learn a lot more than if you give them some silly token piece of advice and say "off you go".


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## bigguy (Feb 15, 2006)

Sdaji, I would be urinated as well. But Instar did state a course for a relevant reptile the new licencee may be after, so I dont know where you are coming from..

I am not in favour of courses. Rather a very basic allround reptile husbandry test issued by the NPWS prior to a licence being issued.


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## Sdaji (Feb 15, 2006)

*sigh*

Okay, I'd be pretty pissed off if I only wanted a turtle and had to pass snake and lizard husbandry tests.

The problem with very basic tests is that people would be able to pass them with a very basic amount of knowledge, but having passed the test they'd think they knew all they needed to. Have a look around the forums and see how many people know nothing but think they know everything. Imagine if they had passed a test!


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## instar (Feb 16, 2006)

WEll thanks for your thoughts. it was just an idea thrown up. How about a basic reptile husbandry test as Bigguy suggests, which could be done by mail or online and submitted to parks n wildlife or whatever there called now, before a license is issued.

On the other hand, where do you draw the line, test before fishing licenses? 
I must say though, a bloody hard test for keeping cats or dogs and a license should be compulsary!

If I must pay reg for a license to keep my herps which cannot do harm to any person or the the enviroment or native fauna, how come Mrs Fleacarpet can keep 20 cats with no restrictions whatsover, and Trevor redneck can keep pitbulls which tear little kids faces off? Our goverment Sux big time.


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## Hickson (Feb 16, 2006)

Interesting discussion.

Here are my thoughts (for what they're worth):

Firstly, I suspect NPWS wants some kind of policy listing minimum standards that they can hand out with every new licence so the new licensee knows the minimum required from them. And I suspect the reason for this is so, if a situation in NSW arises similar to the one in Darwin where reptiles were badly neglected, then the prosecution would have a stronger legal case.

Secondly, I like the idea of a test that covers the basics in reptile keeping - Sdaji, if you only want a turtle, then too bad; you're getting a Reptile Keepers License which allows you to keep snakes and lizards too, so you get tested on them. This will also help weed out the impulse buyers. However, I do agree with Sdaji on his point about people passing a test and thinking they know it all. We'd be naive to think this wouldn't happen.

Thirdly, a mandatory course in basic husbandry of the reptile in question. Another good idea and one I prefer over the test. The proposal is for new reptile keepers only, so the chances of a new reptile keeper buying, as their first ever reptile, one of the two species that Sdaji is the only person in Victoria to hold is pretty minute. I imagine the course would be tailored to either Beardies, Blueys/Shinglebacks, Carpet/Diamond/Bredls, Children/Stimson/Spotteds or Turtles depending on what the buyer is purchasing. Once they've done one course, if they later buy another herp they should already have some idea and experience in what is required. Obviously, if they wanted to do another course there would be nothing stopping them.

Just my 2¢ worth. 



Hix


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## Sdaji (Feb 16, 2006)

This sort of thing should never, ever be used to force someone by law to keep reptiles in a certain way. Reptile husbandry just doesn't work that way, we all know that. There would be countless cases of people being forced to make the agonising decision of doing what's best for the animal, despite breaking the law, or doing what is bad for the animal, to stay within the law. It's simply not right to force many people to mistreat their animals so that others can be prosecuted.

I know some of the people who currently run the husbandry courses, they are not qualified to do it, but people go through and get little more than a false sense of confidence and pride. No doubt some are good, but too many are not.

Forcing someone to pass a test which covers things they're not interested in is a recipee for disaster. We already have too many people going outside the law because they don't want to bother getting a license. I get requests from unlicensed people all the time, they tell me they don't want to bother with what they think is a stupid system, I tell them I can't deal with them, they tell me they'll go to someone who will and no doubt many of them find an avenue to secure what they want illegally. People aren't at all going to take nicely to being told "Too bad, you need a reptile keeper's license, learn the lot, no matter how irrelevant it is.".

No doubt the Darwin keeper knew how to properly care for his animals, but was negligent. No one has that many animals without knowing a lot more than would be required to pass any license test; it's quite clear that such a test won't prevent that sort of thing from happening, that keeper would easily have passed the test anyway.

You'd be surprised how few people keep some of the species which are cheap and easy to keep, by the way. Pygopus are very easy to keep and sometimes sell quite cheaply. Have a look at the number of people keeping them in each state, and the numbers kept. Their husbandry is different from anything else.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 16, 2006)

Sdaji
I don't think any body is suggesting that by passing a test it will eliminate irresponsible behavior out right. What it is likely to do though is ensure that some basic fundamentals are understood by the keeper in the first place.
It’s a bit like a person that is issued with a licence to drive a car. The written and practical driving test clearly establishes that there is some understanding of the required rules etc. but that will never stop an idiot from acting dangerously from then on after he passes it.
If a basic text was put together I am sure that it could be in the way of your standard drivers written test e.g. tick the correct answer A, B, C, D etc. It wouldn't need to be hard and cover every species needs in detail but simple enough in a way to show the department that you clearly understand things like thermoregulation etc and what that means in the way keeping your pet healthy. You make it too hard and I am sure that many people will just keep snakes illegally and never bother about a licence. No system is likely to be perfect let’s get real. But that doesn’t mean however that we can’t achieve something better than we have.


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## Hickson (Feb 16, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> No doubt the Darwin keeper knew how to properly care for his animals, but was negligent. No one has that many animals without knowing a lot more than would be required to pass any license test; it's quite clear that such a test won't prevent that sort of thing from happening, that keeper would easily have passed the test anyway.



Crossed lines here, I think. It was someone in this thread who suggested a test and a course for *new *reptile keepers (this keeper obviously falls into a different category), but Jeff was simply asking about heating, shelter, lighting etc. *I suspect *to give them a stronger legal standing. Note: *I suspect *- I may be wrong.



Sdaji said:


> You'd be surprised how few people keep some of the species which are cheap and easy to keep, by the way. Pygopus are very easy to keep and sometimes sell quite cheaply. Have a look at the number of people keeping them in each state, and the numbers kept.



In NSW, according to last years records, 18 licensees held a total of 27 animals of three species, down from 38 the year before (none were bred in the year, that's a drop of 29%). I'm not sure I see you're point?



Hix


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## Ramsayi (Feb 16, 2006)

Just what we need more legislation!!! This joint would have to be one of the most over governed countries on earth.Won't be long before we will need a permit to fart!!

The hobby is growing at a rapid rate year in year out.Does anyone think "Self Regulation" might be a better thing than having a government dept telling us in their wisdom the best way to keep our reptiles?

A code of practise written by expeienced breeders and keepers would be a hell of a lot more effective in the education of new keepers than yet another bundle of red tape to wade through,written by bureaucrats who most likely would have no idea about realistic and adequate husbandry requirements of reptiles.

Too bad the hobby as a whole is so fragmented.

Ps,Keep your nose out of my enclosures Jeff &lt;note the smileys>>>>>>> oops there are none


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 16, 2006)

Ramsayi
A code of practice should definitely be implemented, but that will never show the department that the person that has received it, has read it or for that matter hasn't immediately turned it into a paper dart.
What better or way would you suggest there be of generally ensuring that the people who have possession of our native fauna new more than placing their reptile in decorated fish tank in the garage ? 
Also your farts maybe contravening the health act if you were commercially filling up scuba tanks at the time, and breaching noise pollution regulations if they are too loud.


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## ScottBec (Feb 16, 2006)

A point I'd like to make is the contradictions the government has at the moment - - -
I have a Gaming Employee Licence (to do payouts etc with the Pokies) and that licence application was HUGE - they wanted to know every place I'd lived in the past 10 years, what I'd been doing in the past 10 years (eg: where I'd worked, Where I'd studied and when I was unemployed) And it had to be acuate TO THE DAY other wise they sent it back and said "incomplete application - see section 23a"

Yet to apply for a Passport to leave the country - I only needed to supply my current address, previous address and someone (eg a current Passport licence holder) verify the details and photo.

A Good example is with Scott and I - Knowing he would love a python, and I'm just as fond of reptiles, I applied for the Qld Rec Wildlife Licence (which only really wanted to know where I lived, and my drivers licence number) and I received it within 15 working days... and within that time I had gone over the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) Site with a fine toothed comb and printed a folder full of rules, regulations and guidelines. I had also found a number of sites (including this one) regarding the care of Coastals and built the enclosure.... And then he got to collect his surprise birthday present off the plane with me... I then handed him the folder of info I'd gathered and said - happy reading... Some people are doing things the better way –

These are only my thoughts


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## ScottBec (Feb 16, 2006)

Here’s some of the Code of Practices for Captive reptile and amphibian husbandry in Qld, as far as I can tell published in 2003. 
“Approved by the chief executive of the EPA in accordance with section 174A of the Nature Conservation Act 1992 on 12 November 2003 and notified in the gazette on 21 November 2003.”

(http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/publications/p00061aa.pdf/Captive_reptile_and_amphibian_husbandry.pdf)

“35.5. A small python (&lt;50 cm total length) requires a cage at least 25 cm by 15 cm by 10 cm.
35.7. A python of 200cm total length will require a cage with floor space at least 50cm by 100 cm.
35.8. Height of the cage will depend upon the species.
35.8.1. Pythons which habitually climb (eg. Carpet pythons) will need the cage to be 100cm high or more, while essentially terrestrial species like the Black-headed python Aspidites melanocephalus will need a cage height of 60 cm.
35.9. If more than 1 python is to be kept in a cage the floor area must be increased by 50% for each additional snake.”
35.10 Cages need to be constructed in accordance with recommendations regarding security and visibility and proper heating and photoperiod regimes must be provided.

36.4. Snakes feed most when young and growing, so a hatchling python can be fed once per week during warm weather and less frequently throughout the winter if aequate temperatures are provided.
36.5. Food offered depends on the size of the python.
36.5.1. Hatchling Children's pythons (Liasis maculosus and others) can consume pink mice, while hatchlings of larger species (eg. Carpet python) can consume weaner or adult mice.
36.6. As pythons grow, larger food is required.
36.6.1. Adult Carpet pythons and similar sized species will usually readily accept freshly-killed rats or pigeons.
36.6.2. For a 200 cm. python 2-3 adult rats or pigeons constitutes a meal which will sustain the snake for 8-10 days.
36.7. Acceptance of food varies according to the individual.


And if your interested in the rest of the info on the Qld site try this link:
http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/ecoaccess...s/keeping_wildlife_for_recreational_purposes/


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## Sdaji (Feb 16, 2006)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Sdaji
> I don't think any body is suggesting that by passing a test it will eliminate irresponsible behavior out right. What it is likely to do though is ensure that some basic fundamentals are understood by the keeper in the first place.
> It’s a bit like a person that is issued with a licence to drive a car. The written and practical driving test clearly establishes that there is some understanding of the required rules etc. but that will never stop an idiot from acting dangerously from then on after he passes it.
> If a basic text was put together I am sure that it could be in the way of your standard drivers written test e.g. tick the correct answer A, B, C, D etc. It wouldn't need to be hard and cover every species needs in detail but simple enough in a way to show the department that you clearly understand things like thermoregulation etc and what that means in the way keeping your pet healthy. You make it too hard and I am sure that many people will just keep snakes illegally and never bother about a licence. No system is likely to be perfect let’s get real. But that doesn’t mean however that we can’t achieve something better than we have.



You obviously understand that such a test won't completely elliminate irresponsible behaviour, it will probably have no affect at all, most probably understand this, and it is not my concern. My concern with the test is that it will either be extremely simply, in which case it acheives nothing and leaves the new licensee with a false sense of security, or it is more challenging, in which case Joe Average will consider it to be stupid and will source his animals illegally.

Comparing reptile keeping to driving isn't really appropriate. If I drive a car, I am in full public view with my six digit registration number in plain view, from behind and in front. There are many police officers passing me all the time as I drive. If I drive like an idiot, I'll be pulled over before too long. If I don't display my registration plates, I'll be pulled over. If my vehicle is significantly defective, it will be noticed and I'll be pulled over. Unlicensed keepers are unknown to any authorities, but drivers don't have this option (yes, a very small number of people may get away with it etc, but you can see my point). However, even if we are to use your analogy, it is like giving someone a five minute lesson and letting them out on the road. What questions do we propose to put on a test? I'd really love to see an hypothetical test. Try setting one out and it might become more clear that the idea isn't a very good one. Then again, maybe someone can come up with something which looks appropriate, I'll certainly keep an open mind.

If the training and testing was as thorough as is needed to get your driver's license, it would be a good thing, except that it would be too expensive and too big a deterent. It's very dangerous giving someone a qualification if they haven't actually done much to get it.


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## peterescue (Feb 16, 2006)

Its easy, minimum requirements. Anything over that is ok. Anything under needs to be reason why its should be considered adequate. Minumum standard should aply across the board to all keepers including research. 
Thats where you get you adequate standards tested.


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## Sdaji (Feb 16, 2006)

Hix said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > No doubt the Darwin keeper knew how to properly care for his animals, but was negligent. No one has that many animals without knowing a lot more than would be required to pass any license test; it's quite clear that such a test won't prevent that sort of thing from happening, that keeper would easily have passed the test anyway.
> ...



Maybe crossed lines there *shrug* But as I described, I'd hate to see people have to choose between keeping their animals happily but illegally and unhappily but legally. Reptile husbandry is clearly a case where the keeper needs to be able to do as they see best and fixed laws should not be applied.

Wow, are you saying there are 18 people who own Scaley Foots in NSW? It's fewer in Victoria. If there are that many... cool stuff  Scaley Foots are just one of many examples though, it sounds like I could have used a better one for NSW, but perhaps you see my point. For a variety of reasons, the courses are probably extremely unlikely to come in anyway.


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## JeffHardy (Feb 16, 2006)

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Most of the issues raised in the thread are logical and many of the issues relate to an area that we don't want to go - measuring tape mentality issues. At this point I would like to direct contributors to my original and subsequent clarifying posts: 


> NSW Dept of Environment and Conservation is presently examining the feasibility of introducing legislation to set basic standards for the housing and husbandry of reptiles kept by hobbists. Issues to be covered include minimum size, heat, light (incl UV), food, water, cage furniture, protection from predators etc.





> What DEC is looking at are more generic standards than specific ones. eg, provide adequate food, water (drinking and bathing), and shelter to meet the generally accepted needs of the specific animal and hygiene requirements such as removal of uneaten food.



We don't want to set minimum cage size standards or to force people to undertake tests that wouild demonstrate that they know how to read (and therein lies a problem in itself) and/or write (another major problem). We simple want to set some basic ground rules that draw keepers, or potential keepers, of reptiles attention to obigations that they will have for the wellbeing of the animals that they acquire. 

And as a point of clarification, or confirmation, if you like - yes, this has been driven by a couple of well known animal welfare cases that have pointed to potential inadequacies in legislation governing the keeping of all groups of native animals in private hands.


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## JeffHardy (Feb 16, 2006)

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Most of the issues raised in the thread are logical and many of the issues relate to an area that we don't want to go - measuring tape mentality issues. At this point I would like to direct contributors to my original and subsequent clarifying posts: 


> NSW Dept of Environment and Conservation is presently examining the feasibility of introducing legislation to set basic standards for the housing and husbandry of reptiles kept by hobbists. Issues to be covered include minimum size, heat, light (incl UV), food, water, cage furniture, protection from predators etc.





> What DEC is looking at are more generic standards than specific ones. eg, provide adequate food, water (drinking and bathing), and shelter to meet the generally accepted needs of the specific animal and hygiene requirements such as removal of uneaten food.



We don't want to set minimum cage size standards or to force people to undertake tests that wouild demonstrate that they know how to read (and therein lies a problem in itself) and/or write (another major problem). We simple want to set some basic ground rules that draw keepers, or potential keepers, of reptiles attention to obigations that they will have for the wellbeing of the animals that they acquire. 

And as a point of clarification, or confirmation, if you like - yes, this has been driven by a couple of well known animal welfare cases that have pointed to potential inadequacies in legislation governing the keeping of all groups of native animals in private hands.

Oh, and thanks Ramsayi for your suggestion


> Just what we need more legislation!!! This joint would have to be one of the most over governed countries on earth.Won't be long before we will need a permit to fart!!



I will pass that suggestion on to the DECs environmental pollution people

Cheers


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 16, 2006)

Is this the sort of thing you mean Jeff?

The enclosure should be of adequate size for the species being kept considering its age and size.

The enclosure should be escape proof and predator proof

The licencee should provide for adequate hygiene.

Adequate water should be provided for your reptiles considering each species kept.

The licencee should provide suitable food for their reptiles and feed them as often as is required for the species that is being kept. Food should not be let in an enclosure where to do so would cause poor hygiene.

Where the licencee is uncertain as to the requirements set out above they should seek advice from a herpetological society or an experienced keeper.

If so, I can't see any issues with it. I can certainly see why the people from the other states are hopping mad though. I think it is crazy for a govt dept to set these standards. Wow, if someone loses a GTP because they followed your rules and it was determined that they were wrong......... Was that Horrocks v Parramatta City Council????


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## JeffHardy (Feb 16, 2006)

Yes, Pete, your outline is in very simple terms, but that might not quite fit with the ideals of the legislators, but we are not looking to go much further than you suggest. 

As I said in earlier posts, we will not be seeking to impose specific standards for indibvidual species or families of animals. Our legislative basis for regulating or monitoring private holdings of native animals are primarily nature conservation oriented. In some recent cases our legislative base has been found wanting in the area of animal safety/security and welfare. Consequently, we are looking at basic conditions that will apply across the board in respect to directives that might be given, or other action taken (such as confiscation/seizure) in the interests of the welfare or safety of specific animals.

Cheers


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 16, 2006)

And further more the test should be in thirteen different languages, written in brail, should have wheel chair ramps to the test room and turbans are to be permitted. :lol:


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## instar (Feb 16, 2006)

The potential inadequacies with any legislation are that legislation is black n white in the courtroom, life /reality is not.
This is why 90% of all laws are bloody silly and should be abolished. Courts are clogged with cases of folk that did or did not do, something which fell outside black n white legislation. The law will ALWAYS be a Ass. I think Ramsayi is right, we dont need more legislation. 
If you want to legislate (read interfere) with how folk keep pets, start with cats n dogs! Leave herpers the hell alone. 
You cannot police it, so why legislate it? waste of tax dollars! typical Buearocrat *spell (hate the word too) self justification.

Alot easier to schedual regular 3 monthly inspections of premises/enclosures/animals (get you out of the office Jeff ) and then if unsatisfactory , do something about it by way of legislation, or confiscate the animals.

Im hearing this goes on (inspections) in qld, also fines for imperfect bookkeeping apparently. sounds like revenue raising to me!

LMFAO Pilbarra, Maybe all enclosures should face Mecca too!


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## NoOne (Feb 16, 2006)

Theres lots of animals people should have to be 'tested on before they keep, cats and dogs a couple.
I think something simple like a small (3 or 4 pages) covering the basics of snakes lizards and turtles is about as good as anyone can expect from this.
I still think time could be better spent getting rid of exotics or stopping illegal collecting, gets those under control then worry about this kinda thing.


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## ErisKSC (Feb 17, 2006)

I understand the Gov is deciding to do something as a result of some animal welfare cases, Why? Bad Press? How many dogs and cats and rabbits and other animals are mistreated by owners and caged or cared for improperly?

We as licensed keepers however (can't think of any other animals that requires a license, except natives) will potentially have a set of standards imposed on us, and the motivation is Bad Press????

If you want to impose standards for keeping them why not sell them in petshops? Ultimately reptile keepers are still a minority why introduce what i see as harsh rules as a result of isolated incidents, not even in the state in one case?

When you let me keep pet Quolls, Sugar gliders, Sea snakes, Bilbies and Numbats then i will agree with a more comprehensive system than the one in place. But without seriously looking at the current legislation (and addressing the number of people who kill snakes on their property) don't pick on us, we're the GOOD GUYS!


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2006)

I don't think Jeff was trying to pick on us. I think everyone here is speaking their minds with the wellbeing of captive reptiles in mind.

I think it's good the department is thinking about this, and it's good they're asking the reptile community before acting, but I hope they see that while well intentioned, a set of guidelines would do more harm than good. I'd like to know where the push for these guidelines comes from.

Have a look at the QLD regulations/guidelines posted in this thread. You could spend all afternoon picking through it and finding faults, so I'll just look at the first point. It says any snake under 50cm needs a cage at least 25cm long. I and many other keepers have had snakes which needed to be started in smaller enclosures. They feed readily in something smaller than that and freak out in something that size (and larger would be worse). It's not the biggest fault I see there, it's just the first point. You simply can't hope to give out brief guidelines which will generally apply, but I can very easily imagine someone buying their first snake, a hatchling, reading those guidelines and thinking they're doing the best thing by putting their hatchling into a 25cm or larger enclosure, then when it doesn't feed, putting it into something smaller won't be something they try, because they've been told it's the wrong thing to do. Even if the advice is good, something so brief will do more harm than good because people will think it's a complete "how to" manual.

By the way, Jeff, this is APS, you had to expect that the thread would diverge a little!


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## Rennie (Feb 17, 2006)

First legislate to keep all cats INDOORS! And work out a way to rid the country of cane toads. That will save a lot more herps than trying to stop the minority of bad keepers from mistreating their pets.


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## olivehydra (Feb 17, 2006)

Anyone have an idea as to the number of inspections that take place in NSW every year? I would be interested to know if it is random or only limited to "suspect" licencees. Never had a knock on the door and often wondered how the process of inspection takes place. Do you get at least five minutes to pick up your dirty washing and hide the pile of empty pizza boxes? :wink:


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## JeffHardy (Feb 17, 2006)

Olivehydra said


> Anyone have an idea as to the number of inspections that take place in NSW every year? I would be interested to know if it is random or only limited to "suspect" licencees. Never had a knock on the door and often wondered how the process of inspection takes place. Do you get at least five minutes to pick up your dirty washing and hide the pile of empty pizza boxes?



AND hide the animals you you don't have in your records????

In NSW, NPWS rangers carry out routine and random inspections when competing priorities permit, while the specialist enforcement officers are more involved with matter that might involve specialist investigation arising from major compliance issues detected in paperwork submitted by licensees, complaints by MOP and intel from interstate and Commonwealth agencies. 

ErisKSC said


> When you let me keep pet Quolls, Sugar gliders, Sea snakes, Bilbies and Numbats then i will agree with a more comprehensive system than the one in place. But without seriously looking at the current legislation (and addressing the number of people who kill snakes on their property) don't pick on us, we're the GOOD GUYS!



A bit of personal flaming here. Read my earlier posts. If you want to keep native mammals and seasnakes you might lobby the government which gives directives to its public service. There is also a State election in NSW in 2007, or you could simply up-stakes and move to South Australia where it seems you can do just about whatever you like.


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## herptrader (Feb 17, 2006)

In Victoria it is my understanding that you do not have to allow the inspectors access to your premises but can bring the animals to the door. You can also ask them to come back later if the time is not convenient for you.

On the other question ov what can be kept the same licence in Victoria that allows you to keep reptiles also allows you to keep a range of mamals including sugar gliders. I dio not believe any sea snakes are on the Victorian schedules.


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## ErisKSC (Feb 17, 2006)

Sorry Jeff didn't want to flame or cause any disrespect, my concern there was related to something i read in the Sydney Morning Herald, regarding quolls as pets. 
And was more concerned with a more across the board approach to captive native animals.

It seems to me that reptiles are often maligned by the general public andas a result retile keepers could be subject to more biased public opinion.
This was what i meant by the reference to snake killing, because if i were to be found killing a numbat or bilby i'd be subject to public anger. I was only inferring that NPWS might spend time and money addressing other conservation issues.
Sorry if it sounded angry, no offence was intended by my original post.


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## ErisKSC (Feb 17, 2006)

In reference to your reply.

What are the systems in place for me to petition the govt. regarding native animals as pets? 

I have briefly investigated th issue and have had some correspondace with the office of NPWS by email. If you wold be able to point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated.


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

Jeff, you can come and inspect my collection at any time, unannounced. You have my address and now also permission posted in a public forum. I have nothing to hide and bet nearly everyone on this site is the same.

And as for the legislation, I understand how most of these directions come from the top, at ministerial level. they telll you that they want so & so and you HAVE to implement it. So you come in here and ask for some input. To me, you should be totally congratulated for that. Well done.

Guys, if we HAVE to have these laws (the decision wont be made by Jeff but more some greeny that has never kep a herp) then you should really be posting comments here that are positive as to how those laws should be drafted rather than just saying "Dont do if Jeff". To do otherwise means we WILL get regulations similar to Qld & Vic.

Oh, and if you want to petition the government I can't help. But if you want to petition the opposition, just call me.


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## olivehydra (Feb 18, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Jeff, you can come and inspect my collection at any time, unannounced. You have my address and now also permission posted in a public forum. I have nothing to hide and bet nearly everyone on this site is the same.
> 
> .



Speak for yourself Pete, I have a big stash of herp mags under my mattress, not to mention my dvd collection  :wink:


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## Parko (Feb 18, 2006)

I have often wondered why NPWS will spend lots of our money to prosecute someone who hasn't filled a book out honestly or correctly but seems to do nothing about people who dont keep reptiles and kill them with shovels on a regular basis. Snakes dying in captivity has no impact on the conservation of the species but snakes dying from shovels in the wild has an obvious impact, what's the go with that?
Anyway to keep on topic, I would be opposed to to any further regulation introduced as i'd see it as very unfair for gov't departments to be given such discriminatory powers towards reptile keepers without making it across the board for all pet owners. How can the conservation of reptiles in the wild be improved by prosecuting licensed keepers for what NPWS decides is bad keeping? The amount of public money used to prosecute one bad licensed keeper would have been better used to prosecute unlicensed people who kill reptiles in the wild. It is happening everywhere, there is a general belief in the Australian public that they are doing a good thing everytime they kill a snake, wouldn't you be better spending your time and our money on educating the public so NPWS can make a real impact on conservation, not a false effort towards conservation by policing licensed keepers of animals which have no connection to wild animals?


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## peterescue (Feb 18, 2006)

yeah, but Pete has that secret cellar that only special people know about, oh, um yeah, public forum, damn. haha only joking. really, there is no cellar that you get into through the bottom of the frilly cage. Thats all just nonesense. Think I got away with it there Pete.


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

Yeah mate, ya saved it when you mentioned the bottom of the frilly cage. No one will check the trap door at the bottom of the Diamond aviary out now

But I say it again. Politicians dont give a hoot about us. We are 9,000 votes out of 3 million. Now count the cat owners. We will loose. Certainly not with Jeff but he has to do what an ignorant politician tells him.

We can stick our heads in the sand and offer no suggestions other than "Dont do it" or we can constructively contribute to a regulation that will be FORCED upon us.

I can''t really find a post in this thread that actually suggests how this regulation should be drafted. Following from which, we will merely get what the politicians want.

You can fight all you like against it but it WILL happen.


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## clarkey (Feb 18, 2006)

Jeff ,
Has this all got something to do with all the rumors that reptiles are going to be able to be sold in Pet shops somewhere in the next 12 mths or so. I think guidelines are fine but like everybody has said they need to be flexible.


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## peterescue (Feb 18, 2006)

What, now I have to make flexible enclosures. Makes sense I suppose, the snakes are flexible.
What happens to that NPWS officer you had chained up in the cellar Pete?


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

peterescue said:


> What happens to that NPWS officer you had chained up in the cellar Pete?



I'm buyin' a Scrubbie!!!


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## Sdaji (Feb 18, 2006)

I'd like to think they were smart enough to decide not to do something if they realised it was a bad idea, but if it turns out that a set of guidelines must be produced, because the powers that be dictate it, I suggest making it very brief, something along the lines of

"You must care for your reptiles to the best of your ability and ensure that you do all you can to find out the best way to keep your animal, in your circumstances. Remember that a lot of information on reptile husbandry, including what is published in books and regarded as common knowledge is false. Ignore anyone who tells you that there are many fixed rules which must always be adhered to. There are exceptions to virtually every general rule to do with reptile husbandry, so never feel reluctant to learn more, think outside the square or, within reason, try something unusual. It is highly recommended that you keep in touch with other keepers and continue to learn as much as you can as long as you are keeping reptiles."

Any specific information would be irresponsible to include, unless it was pointed out in no uncertain terms that it was a rough guide only which will likely have to be contradicted in practise and that a lot more than what has been given needs to be learned.


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 18, 2006)

Problem with politics Sdaji is that "smart" means what the media will react to the best and what will give us most votes. I did a tax return for a councillor recently who was a member of the Greens. I mentioned that I kept reptiles and you could have cut the air with a knife. We are considered as weirdos for keeping herps and then as animal haters for caging wild animals. We have little support in the general public. Jeff has previously admitted that they were going to recommend to the Govt that we be allowed to keep small crocs. But the minister got hold of it and canned it first. The stupidity of the government is probably best reflected in that Dr Brendan Nelson, former AMA President, is minister for Education and has nothing to do with health.


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## Sdaji (Feb 18, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Problem with politics Sdaji is that "smart" means what the media will react to the best and what will give us most votes. I did a tax return for a councillor recently who was a member of the Greens. I mentioned that I kept reptiles and you could have cut the air with a knife. We are considered as weirdos for keeping herps and then as animal haters for caging wild animals. We have little support in the general public. Jeff has previously admitted that they were going to recommend to the Govt that we be allowed to keep small crocs. But the minister got hold of it and canned it first. The stupidity of the government is probably best reflected in that Dr Brendan Nelson, former AMA President, is minister for Education and has nothing to do with health.



You raise some all too valid points


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## olivehydra (Feb 18, 2006)

Perhaps the guidelines could be condensed to a sentance or two...."your reptile will tell you what it wants". It is then up to the keeper to learn the subtle language of herps??


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## ErisKSC (Feb 19, 2006)

It seems the reason no-one is willing to propose a draft response is that no-one wants the responsibility. I mean from the posts that are there already, nearly everyone in some way states that there is no right or wrong. Herping is the most fluid form of animlas keeping i've been involved in. 
What works for one fails for another. What one snake likes another of the same species hates. I've read the QLD quidelines and they do provide a general approach to housing and caging but they come across as being 'right'. I'm sure there are members out there who break a number of the guidelines, but i don't hear about their herps dying.

If NPWS wants the herp-community to write a set of guidline sand establish some sort standards/protocols to introduce new licensee's to the hobby, i'm sure we'd do it. But to set in stone (so to speak) by establishing it through govt. channels is going to make us all uncomfortable, because WE (as people who keep snakes & lizards) know there isn't necessarily a right or wrong way.

Not flaming or starting anything here, but does jeff keep herps?


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## zulu (Feb 19, 2006)

*re Minimum*

Regulate BANKS :evil:


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## peterjohnson64 (Feb 19, 2006)

ErisKSC said:


> Not flaming or starting anything here, but does jeff keep herps?



If Jeff DOES keep herps then he needs to be congratulated for asking for advice on every herp site he could find before he goes ahead with anything. I am certain he will take our thoughts back to the minister.

If Jeff DOESN'T keep herps then he needs to be congratulated for asking for advice on every herp site he could find before he goes ahead with anything. I am certain he will take our thoughts back to the minister


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## ErisKSC (Feb 20, 2006)

I was just curious


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## JeffHardy (Feb 20, 2006)

> Not flaming or starting anything here, but does jeff keep herps?



The answer is yes, but that is irrelevant to this issue. As others have said in earlier posts, what has been demanded by those that ultimately make the decisions and legislation has got nothing to do with what Jeff might want, or what Jeff might think and quite often, what Jeff might recommend based on his knowledge, experience and the input from experts such as yourselves. 

My earlier posts on this issue mentioned that we aretrying to steer away from the tape measure mentality and contentious animal rights issues and go back to recommendations such as very basic generic statements on animal welfare. 

We currently have regulations relating to birds that are outdated and inconsistent with a later Code of Ethics for the Keeping and Trading of Birds that has been adopted under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. While we might wish to remove the regulation altogether, there is some opposition and the opponents propose that the regulation be expanded to covar all protected native fauna kept in private hands or traded in NSW.


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## Surfcop24 (Feb 25, 2006)

Very interesting thoughts and opinions from everyone. I am also from Qld so my thoughts dont really count. But I do agree there needs to be some minimum standards that should be set. By minimum, I am thinking a Table (as suggested) listing the different snakes down the left, and the age (0-6months,6 months -12 months etc.) across the top. Thereofre you can look at for example a Diamond Python, that is 2 yrs of age needs ??? x???x??? size enclosure. If you get my drift. 

Added to this table would be information regarding the well being of the snake eg, suitable Water source, suffiecient Hide, snake is to be kept in a suitable/well fed condition, suitable heating to replicate natural habitat for that species. Of course all of this would be up for some debate, and would be open to some exploitation, but I think it would be up to the RSPCA or whoever governs these regulations to prove that it will do harm to the snake.

I will be watching this thread..... who knows Qld may be the next to take this Path.....


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## ErisKSC (Feb 25, 2006)

I like the idea of a table, but rather than the age of the snake, how about size? Wouldn't that be better as age doesn't necessarily describe the size of a snake, depending on how it' been fed.

Maybe someone could draft a table and then get as many members on as many different forums (and off the net) as possible to fill it out and then compare the variety of results and select the sizes/materials/conditions from there?

And Jeff i was only curious, i know it has nothing to do with the topic, probably would have been smarter for me to PM you the question. sorry.


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