# Is this snake a red belly or something else???



## Trumpy (Dec 31, 2012)

Hey 
i found this snake in my back yard yesterday where the kids play and was wondering what kind of snake it is? 
I thought it was a red belly but my mate thinks differently. Where should and how far away do I release it? The pics aren't the best sorry.
Cheers for the help!


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi mate, it's a Small-eyed Snake (_Cryptophis nigrescens_). They are a very common species but are typically nocturnal. Let it go in your garden, there will be a lot more there and they don't pose a threat to your kids as long as you tell them not to touch them.


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## AirCooled (Dec 31, 2012)

What location did you find it?


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## Shotta (Dec 31, 2012)

Cacophis squamulosus


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 31, 2012)

I agree with Jonno, it's a Small Eyed Snake C.nigrescens. Head shape is wrong for an actual Red Belly (though that's hard to ascertain at that angle). It's very obviously NOT a crowned snake (Cacophis) as it lacks any sign of marking on the side of its head or on its nape.


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## Bushman (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm going to have to disagree with you and Jonno on this one. I think it's difficult to be sure of this animals ID from the pics provided. We really need to see better shots to be certain. 
Even though we can't see any head markings in the photos, I think that it's more likely to be a Golden-crowned Snake (_Cacophis squamulosus_). I'm basing this on the mid-ventral line of brown blotches that is clearly visible in the pics and the orange colouration of the underside. This is characteristic of _Cacophis squamulosus. _It is not a feature of _Cryptophis nigrescens. 
_


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 31, 2012)

Bushman said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you and Jonno on this one. I think it's difficult to be sure of this animals ID from the pics provided. We really need to see better shots to be certain.
> Even though we can't see any head markings in the photos, I think that it's more likely to be a Golden-crowned Snake (_Cacophis squamulosus_).



I agree that the pics are not very good, but I still refute that it is absolutely not a Golden Crowned Snake, you can blow the picture up and see quite clearly there are no head markings, not just hard to see, they really are not there at all.


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## Bushman (Dec 31, 2012)

I've added my reasons to my previous post. I don't know how you can be so certain Stephen, as you admit yourself that the photos are not very good. Blowing up poor quality images doesn't help much. Venomous snake ID is critically important to get right. I'm basing my judgement on what I can see.


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 31, 2012)

> I'm basing this on the mid-ventral line of brown blotches that is clearly visible in the pics and the orange colouration of the underside. This is characteristic of _Cacophis squamulosus. It is not a feature of Cryptophis nigrescens._



You're basing your ID on an incorrect statement. Both species can have a bright orange belly with a mid-ventral line of brown blotches, although brown disruptive patterning in C.squamulosus is usually more broken and in Cryptophis nigrescens usually less prominent. 

There is no head markings, I can zoom in on the picture and see the snakes eye easily, if I can see the eye and no head markings it is not a Golden Crown, which have extremely prominent head marking. The snakes head shape is hard to determine but from what I can see that's not even right for a Crowned either. 

I'm not claiming it's definitely a Small Eye'd I still have my suspicions it may actually be a Red Belly. But I am more than 100% that is not a Golden Crowned Snake.


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## Trumpy (Dec 31, 2012)

It's head is black. No other tinges. It's pretty feisty so I got as close as I could without it striking me to take a pic. Let me know if this pic of its head helps!


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## Bushman (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the fresh pic Trumpy. It looks more like a Small-eyed Snake to me now, as Golden-crowned Snakes have at least some nape and head markings and there's no nape or head markings visible in that pic and according to you. Does it raise its forebody up into an S-shaped defensive position and keep it there?


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## The_Geeza (Dec 31, 2012)

Looking at the scales on the head i recon its a small eye'd...but thats just me using google images lol


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 31, 2012)

OK with that picture it is definitely a Small Eyed.


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## dickyknee (Dec 31, 2012)

GeckPhotographer said:


> OK with that picture it is definitely a Small Eyed.



Even with the other pics , it never looked remotely like a Golden Crown 

Small eyed .



Small eyed snake by Brett Darby, on Flickr

Golden Crown.



Golden Crown 30-12-12 by Brett Darby, on Flickr


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## dickyknee (Dec 31, 2012)

TheReptileben said:


> well someone is in the mood to start a storm



How so ? .


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## eipper (Dec 31, 2012)

As much as it pains me to say it Jonno and Stephen are correct. It is a Cryptophis


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## Bushman (Dec 31, 2012)

It looks like you were right Steven. Well picked. I've never seen or read about a distinctive mid-ventral stripe in _Cryptophis nigrescens_ before. Can you please direct me to any texts that include this feature in their descriptions? None of my texts mention this. 



Trumpy said:


> Hey
> i found this snake in my back yard yesterday where the kids play...Where should and how far away do I release it?...


Since it's looking more like a Small-eyed Snake, which are surprisingly toxic for their size (with human fatalities recorded) and there's children in your household, who no doubt frequent your garden, I recommend releasing it further away than just back in the garden. It's a nocturnal species, so it's not usually a threat, unless disturbed and harassed, but it's better to err on the side of caution when children are involved. 
Can you put it back into nearby bushland? No further than 1km if possible. A rock outcrop would be good, as it will offer it shelter.


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 31, 2012)

> It looks like you were right Steven. Well picked. I've never seen or read about a distinctive mid-ventral stripe in _Cryptophis nigrescens before. Can you please direct me to any texts that include this feature in their descriptions? None of my texts mention this. _



I've never read it in any text myself. But if you look at pictures on flickr, google, etc you'll find some specimens with it. (Though admittedly many more without). I personally have just seen many (read too many) Small-eyeds and I've seen this kind of colouration on the bellies of a fair few. However I've never seen a Small-eyed with a cream/white belly which apparently also occurs.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 1, 2013)

I question the value of a statement like: “ It never looked like…” when made without any qualification of exactly what point you are endeavouring to get across and why. As it stands it makes no positive contribution to this thread. If fact, just the opposite, for it comes across as an arrogant way of saying ‘I know better than you do’. I am aware that the author is both competent and knowledgeable but that only reinforces the negative interpretation.

I think a RBB could be ruled out early on as the pink/red pigment is evenly across the ventral surface instead of being strongest along the lateral edges; the red colour was absent from the ventro-lateral edges; the head was more distinct from the neck than a RBB; the tail tapers more quickly than a RBB; general body proportions looked longer than width compared to a normal RBB. On the other hand it is blacker and glossier than small-eyed I have seen – maybe the flash and camera having an effect.

I found the ventral markings fascinating. And yes, they were definitely more like what you might expect to see on a Golden-crowned. But it would also seem that is within the range of variation you get in Eastern Small-eyed. The head markings on Golden Crowns can vary from bright yellow to washed-out grey or light brown, but they are always evident. I have never seen a black individual either, only grey at the darkest. The apparent lack of any head markings, further confirmed from the latest pic, leaves only one option.

Blue


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## dickyknee (Jan 1, 2013)

Blue , the "It never really looked like" comment was directed at Stephen ( geckophotographer ) , I was having a bit of a joke with him suggesting he really did not need the extra pic to ID that snake as not being a Golden Crown ...... He was not offended in any way, shape or form.
Sorry if you feel it was a negative post , I thought it was more than helpful , I posted pics of both animals in question for ID...
I might suggest your post came across as arrogant , who are you to tell people how to post , why is it your concern if I posted a light hearted joke ?

Dicky 


Trumpy 
What has happened to the snake now , released ?


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 1, 2013)

*dickyknee*,
Before I say anything else, now that you have explained the context of the statement, I fully understand what you intended and where you we coming from. I am glad I was wrong and obviously rescind any implied arrogance and negativity on your behalf. I sincerely apologise for any offence I may have wrongly caused you. 

This problem emanates from the use of sarcasm and ‘ragging’ amongst friends and associates. Within the core of individuals that understand what goes on, there is no issue, only ‘light-hearted jibes’. However, for those not in the know, they take what is said at face value… often diametrically opposite to that which is intended.

My comment was not arrogant. You could, however, consider it blunt and judgmental. I am no-one special and I simply want to learn, like most others here. And should my understanding permit, I think it a good thing to pass on some of that learning to others. The biggest impedance to both has been negative comments about others, rather than sticking to facts or opinions or ideas that have been posted. I am particularly aware of the stipulations for use of this forum in particular, which is why I questioned the intent of your comment. I will add here that my interpretation was in no way any reflection on your use of APS in general, as I am aware of your contributions (and so found the comment ‘out of character’).

I had initially ended my comment with: “Care to explain?” I was feeling unwell at the time and it sounded a bit too much like Pauline Hansen, so I deleted it. Clearly I was wrong not to encourage you to have your say. It makes the difference an enquiry and an accusatory statement. Please accept my apologies again.


There is an issue with photos used in field guides and on the net generally. They choose well marked animals as a subject. Consequently, we don’t get to see the true range of markings in nature, unless we have extensive field experience with a given animal or have seen that range of patterns in captive animals. It does make it difficult at times with respect to IDs.

Here is a darker than normal version of a Golden-crowned… http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...olden-crown-possibilities-197087/#post2285517


Blue


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## eipper (Jan 2, 2013)

Mike,
Unfortunately there are space restrictions in field guides..... Possibly as more electronic publishing occurs they will be more pic heavy, but at this point in time they tend have at a pic of each species and if space/ budget permits they show variation. Wherever possible most field guide authors try to use 'typical' representatives but this is biased to the author... Eg a Dendrelaphis from my backyard is green or blue, but if was in Darwin it would be yellow.

cheers
scott


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## eipper (Jan 3, 2013)

Ok young fella, it has been identified, all you have done is added incorrect information. Legally release should be within a *5km* radius. This is to maintain genetic integrity of the population.
Cryptophis are very toxic in there own right, it's a venomous snake and someone (you fit in this category at present) that has no idea should stay away. Reccomendation of treating as a venomous is fine.
Frogs are not the primary prey for Small eyed snakes.

cheers
scott


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## Rob (Jan 3, 2013)

*Please be aware that the Herp Help and Reptile Identification forums are for serious posts only.
Members do not come to these forums to read views/guesses or idle chit chat, they come here to read helpful explanatory information.
In light of this, the Moderator's take a zero tolerance approach to policing these forums. Any posts not adhering to these strict guidelines will be actioned accordingly.*


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