# One for the Ray Hoser fans



## Samma3l (Mar 11, 2006)

Here is your chance to meet him


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## Reptilia (Mar 11, 2006)

He is also at the glen centro shopping centre in glen waverly on march 20th-26th. 11am and 1pm, 2 shows a day. South east melbourne. Also out the front of target.

Why is he the 'leading herpetoligist' in australia?


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 11, 2006)

Reptilia said:


> Why is he the 'leading herpetoligist' in australia?



Because "Mere Puffs" are still considered acceptable forms of advertising


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## africancichlidau (Mar 11, 2006)

Cos he wrote the ad probably


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 11, 2006)

Oh, but I would be interested in hearing peoples comments as to what constitutes a "herpetologist"?


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## Reptilia (Mar 11, 2006)

I'll go their on the 20th and ask 'Excuse me. Ray, Why are you the leading herpetoligist in australia?'

See what his answer is.


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## Springherp (Mar 11, 2006)

Also ask him why he claims to be "twice voted Australia's most respected herpetologist" on his own website. :roll:


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## bigguy (Mar 11, 2006)

Australaps

That because Ray was the only one who bothered to vote :lol:


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## Sdaji (Mar 11, 2006)

Heh, and you guys think _my_ polls are dodgy! :lol:


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 11, 2006)

roflmfao................ well said SDaji


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## MrBredli (Mar 11, 2006)

> One for the Ray Hoser fans



There's Ray Hoser fans?


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## Sdaji (Mar 11, 2006)

MrBredli said:


> > One for the Ray Hoser fans
> 
> 
> 
> There's Ray Hoser fans?



Well, to most of us they look like old chocolate bar wrappers and toilet seats he stole from a hard rubbish collection, but he is so convinced about it that we don't have the heart to tell him. Shh.


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## Reptilia (Mar 11, 2006)

'LIVE DEADLY SNAKE SHOW!' 

Yet they are venomoids.

On his website he says the audience can handle all the reptiles he has at the show but not the deadly ones.

On snake busters site he says quote: 'Other innovations by Raymond Hoser include shows with snakes eating, mating, feeding lizards and so on.' 

LOL. The first herpetoligist to tell a snake what to do and when to do it.
'grabs two snakes and squishes them together' 

Plenty of other stories. But i think i should 'shhhhh'


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## instar (Mar 11, 2006)

> 'Other innovations by Raymond Hoser include shows with snakes eating, mating, feeding lizards and so on.'



From all accounts the bloke is a wanker, but I have to question the above quote.

Excepting it be inconvenient, I see no reason why a _sensible_ (note the emphasis)
herp show, should not ever include a snake eating. If the snake was not disturbed, and f/t food given, and it was retired from the show after feeding, this could be very educational for those who have never actually seen a snake feed.
Likewise feeding a lizard a few crix or roaches for the audience benefit, while talking about it ,(done by the exhibiter only) seems pretty harmless to me.

some folk get so worked up into a mob mentality ranting about how bout something is, they just cease to think or question. half these hoser bashers are also "the self gratifying type" (mod ed) imo!
they hear rumours and "facts", have never even heard of the bloke before before let alone clapped eyes on him , and they already have it stamped sealed and delivered.
what the hell happened to reserving judgement and forming your own opinions? bloody sheeple!


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## Fuscus (Mar 11, 2006)

I know I shouldn't but ...


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## Reptilia (Mar 11, 2006)

Rofl! Awesome.


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## instar (Mar 11, 2006)

lol Mark, A ledgend in his own mind ya reckon? :lol:


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 11, 2006)

Alot of people give this guy more attention then they do their own kids.
I mean there is almost as much posts on Ray as there is GTP & hybrids.

Australias leading Herpetologist according to APS? Maybe.
Australias most popular Herpetologist according to APS stats? Deffinately.


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## instar (Mar 11, 2006)

Well said J and C _Reptiles! *claps*


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## moosenoose (Mar 11, 2006)

Reptilia said:


> 'LIVE DEADLY SNAKE SHOW!'
> 
> Yet they are venomoids.
> 
> On his website he says the audience can handle all the reptiles he has at the show but not the deadly ones.



I have seen Ray toss out the occasional Colletts into the crowd before (not 'toss', but you know what I mean lol), and yes, it was a venomoid. The funny thing was, nobody knew what they were holding :lol:

I have nothing against Raymond except his practice of doing the venomoids himself - dodgey, dodgey, dodgey! There are guys like him in every walk of life, he's an eccentric to the extreme, and I guess that's where he comes unstuck :?


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## Samma3l (Mar 12, 2006)

Reptilia said:


> I'll go their on the 20th and ask 'Excuse me. Ray, Why are you the leading herpetoligist in australia?'
> 
> See what his answer is.



dont you see? he has a red belly on his neck! on his neck! You aint no herpetologist until you have one of those near your face!

If I could see him I's ask him to kiss a elapid until he got tagged, just for the laffo

P.S. I posted heading as a neutral disclaimer. If you like him heres your chance to met him. If you dont heres a chance for hilaridad


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## Parko (Mar 12, 2006)

I disagree with venomoids, is that acceptable olivehydra or would you like to delete my post?


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## instar (Mar 12, 2006)

I disagree with you disagreeing with venomoids parko, because I disagreed with them first. I find you disagreeing with them after I disagreed with them very disagreeable!


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## Parko (Mar 12, 2006)

I agree with your disagreement Inny, but feel you are being argumentive. I ask olivehydra to delete your posts because they serve no purpose other than to cause argument.


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## instar (Mar 12, 2006)

I disagree!


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## Rupes (Mar 12, 2006)

hehehe &lt;--- dirrected to Parko + Instars last posts


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## Stevo (Mar 12, 2006)

I suspect that if the poll was "Who is your favourite APS moderator" Olivehydra would get Parko's vote..............................


On a serious note fruity fruit loops of fruit......


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## peterescue (Mar 12, 2006)

I had thought of editing Parko's post and replacing it with this

I would like to apologise to all the members here and especilly to the moderators for coming on here drunk and being offensive.
Yours sincerely
Parko


Instead, they were just moved to the "Big Book of Parko's Indiscretions"


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## instar (Mar 12, 2006)

Unless I missed something he was sober and being humorous Pete. a little friction never hurt this website and its certainly not new. 99% of members here love it, including yourself. It makes makes threads happen and keeps it alive.
your getting old and whiney like grandpa simpson Pete, dont lose your sense of humour ok.


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## Reptilia (Mar 12, 2006)

> Quote: ? 'Other innovations by Raymond Hoser include shows with snakes eating, mating, feeding lizards and so on.'



Instar. I wasnt refering to the whole quote. Just the mating part. (I should of highlighted it). I didnt think this would be possible. Feeding both lizards and snakes, yes no problem with that and yes it could be very educational for the public. But.. how do you get a snake to mate at a show?. 

I have certainly never seen that happen and would like to know how they do it.
It is definately my fault that I posted the entire quote and hence mislead people that have read it.



> some folk get so worked up into a mob mentality ranting about how bout something is, they just cease to think or question. half these hoser bashers are also "the self gratifying type" (mod ed) imo!



But if this is referring to me, I really dont appreciate it.
And if you are calling these so called 'hoser bashers' "self gratifying" (mod ed). Are you also referring to other people in this thread?

You call ray hoser a ******. So what does that make you? A 'hoser basher'.....

Cant all of us hoser bashes get along?


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## stencorp69 (Mar 12, 2006)

Never meet the bloke personally, but he's got some useful information on his website. Don't know if that constitutes being a fan or not, but he probably dribbles about the same amount of BS as most of the people on this site - as evidenced by fuscus poll . IMO

Sten


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## instar (Mar 12, 2006)

> > some folk get so worked up into a mob mentality ranting about how bout something is, they just cease to think or question. half these hoser bashers are also "the self gratifying type" (mod ed) imo!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I said


> From all accounts the bloke is a ******,


 I did not say I nessesarily shared the opinion, although I strongly disagree with venemoids.

Im referring to anyone who "jumps on the wagon" like a mindless goon, because an opinion is popular., without anything experience/knowledge by which to make measure of its worth. If that includes some here, Tough luck honey. 

re: mating at shows, its not likely you can "make" snakes mate, common sense should tell you that. if snakes are mating and they used at a show while doing the biz, I have no problem with that either if they are not disturbed. As i said "educational"


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## Fuscus (Mar 12, 2006)

for those without an opinion of the aforementioned gentleman try
a/ These pages on his web site ( http://www.smuggled.com/ )
http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1p.htm
http://www.smuggled.com/VenSur6.htm
Note the animal is cooled *not*anesthetized 
but you gotta love the 4 by 2 raw pine operating table. Must be real easy to sterilize 
b/ His contributions to other sites - do a google on ray hoser 
or look here http://biology.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/FWit/Lies.html
Note that this site is run by one of his kingsnake "sparring partners"


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## Hickson (Mar 12, 2006)

I'd just like to point out two things:

1. The advertisement says "Meet leading Australian Herpetologist Ray Hoser". It doesn't say he's *the* leading Australian herpetologist, but suggests he is *a* leading Australian Herpetologist, or *one of* the leading Australian herpetologists.

2. From that photo, it appears he didn't get enough calcium and UVB when he was younger, he has a kink in his back.



Hix


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## zulu (Mar 12, 2006)

*re One*

Pretty boring really,when i did shows the tiger snakes i used were as agro as hell and the people was happy in the prospect i might get bitten and even die  like a lion show at a circus you kind of wish the lion has a free meal  Whats tis lack of respect here its not Ray anymore its Dr Hoser.


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 12, 2006)

Dr of what?


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## Rennie (Mar 12, 2006)

Hix said:


> 1. The advertisement says "Meet leading Australian Herpetologist Ray Hoser". It doesn't say he's *the* leading Australian herpetologist, but suggests he is *a* leading Australian Herpetologist, or *one of* the leading Australian herpetologists.
> 
> Hix


I was about to say the same thing, you beat me to it. I can honestly say that I am a leading herpetologist too, one of the top million or so! :lol: 

P.S. I am not a fan defending him, just making a statement. Don't attack me.


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## zulu (Mar 12, 2006)

*re One*



peterjohnson64 said:


> Dr of what?


 Lighten up pete,if you laugh your face will crack,get into a bottle of red :lol:


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## Samma3l (Mar 12, 2006)

I read that stuff trying to keep an open mind about him (I posted this thread knowing he was controversial, though I had no opinion of him myself, or knowledge why he was surrounded by controversy) and I could see a number of things that question his respect in the herp community.

Because I like typing so much I shall regale you with a few of them:

Ray Hoser has obvious difficulty distinguishing between first person and third person, when talking about himself. I even read a sentence or two where he switched between the different perspectives within them! This I guess is more of a personality flaw, but I argue that this is evidence of lack of qualified education in the field he claims to be an expert in, especially when he published those pages as a scientific report.

Mr. Hoser performed surgical operations on animals without anesthetic or a veterinary licence. I think that moves into a more ethical/legal debate. I know very little of snake veterinary science, but I understand that a vet with experience with reptiles would know the correct thing to do and I dont think that the practices Ray employs in his procedures would be used.

Leading me to my next finding: Ray virtually disregards any formal text or scientifically accepted knowledge when he finds it inconvenient to what he does.

He knows that what he did/is doing is wrong. This was demonstrated when he told of receiving requests to perform the operation, but declining them due to legal reasons.

Theres some more idiot stuff there that I could include but they dont really apply to his image as a "scientific expert" rather than a rogue amateur who doesnt know australian english and grammar except to include one more: That the article he published on devenomising elapids reads more like a diary entry or blog instead of a scientific paper as he describes the procedure and deals with critics on a personal level in the same piece.

Other than that (besides the details of his scallywag behaviour), everything else that I picked up can be put down to Mr. Hoser not displaying the correct uses of scientific language.


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 12, 2006)

I was serious. I like to know what people do their PHd's in...... 

Oh, and I actually supported Ray when he was attacked in another forum that I no longer go to...


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## Hickson (Mar 12, 2006)

I think Zulu's reference to 'Dr Hoser' was a sarcastic comment relating to the fact that Hoser performs surgery on his snakes.



Hix


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 12, 2006)

OOOOhhhhh, stupid me. Yes, I will go and get a bottle of Red. Funny thing is, Vets & Medical Practitioner's are really only honorary doctors anyway.


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## instar (Mar 13, 2006)

Like I said Mr Rescue


> "unless I missed something.."



My lawyers are drafting the full public apology you demand and further correspondance re this issue is pending advice from the attorney genral. I have been advised not to say anything further than this on the grounds it may incriminate me! :roll: 
Now I remember why I dont have folk with badges on my site! 
come down to earth mate, You can breathe the air, honest!


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## shamous1 (Mar 13, 2006)

Hi everyone. I love everyones comments. At 5:15 in the morning and having not been able to sleep, it's pretty good value.

Just a question! I have read a couple of Hoser's books and found them o'k. I don't have an opinion on him and find people like Brian Barnett and Afro to be the leading Herps that I know (you can pay me later guys).

Just wondering what everyone has against the guy? I must have missed something! You can PM me with any info, gossip, inuendo, stories etc.

He seems to have a few people offside!

Keep up the good value comments coming. What a pisser! Can I say that?


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## instar (Mar 13, 2006)

Thats "Urinater" around here shamous1 ! Guess you missed that one in ther censor Dave!


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## shamous1 (Mar 13, 2006)

*Sorry*

Sorry everyone. What a urinater. :lol:


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## instar (Mar 13, 2006)

Lmao, sounds ridiculous dont it, like police talk, they cant just say "car" has to be "vehicle" :lol: 

I dont mind of you say "pisser" , im not as conservative over here. :lol:


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## shamous1 (Mar 13, 2006)

I'm glad I'm not the only idiot on at this time of the morning. Let me rephrase that. I'm glad I'm not the only person on at this time of the morning.


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## chilli (Mar 13, 2006)

*raymond hoser*

i don't get it, a lot of people don't like him. he certainly takes fantastic photos. i think it's ok to call yourself a leading herpetologist if you've been around for a few decades and got a couple of books under your belt. i haven't met a herp who most folk don't find a bit weird, it takes all types.


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## instar (Mar 13, 2006)

instar said:


> Like I said Mr Rescue
> 
> 
> > "unless I missed something.."
> ...



Sorry Pete, got a bit carried away. pm'd ya. :lol: :wink:


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## Vat69 (Mar 13, 2006)

It's my (albeit limited) understanding that a 'herpetologist' is a zoologist who specialises in reptiles, which denotes a university degree in the field of science, with perhaps even some post-grad research?
*Nothing wrong with being a little pedantic right? heh.
I'll admit I'm not informed on Hoser's credentials, but just having years in the hobby doesn't make you a leading herpetologist in my eyes, I don't care how many books you've written Madonna :roll:


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## shamous1 (Mar 13, 2006)

*Unjust - Unfair - Unknown*

I am confused. Everyone, or should I say most people seem to not like Hoser. Is it jealousy or are you all totally correct with your comments.

This thread and the statements about him confuse the hell out of me. Our family have only been into herps for around 5 months, so maybe it is ignorance on my behalf. I asked for people to PM me so I can possibly understand in some way.

There would be a lot of people that are a lot newer to herps than me and I am just wondering what they are thinking when they read this thread. I believe that if people are going to bag someone then the facts should be presented. Not everyone knows the facts, or are there no facts at all, just summations.

Please make me understand. :cry:


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## shamous1 (Mar 13, 2006)

*I understand a bit more now!*

Hi all,

I've had a couple of PM's from people who will remain anonymous. :wink: 

I have a bit more knowledge on the subject and can see why people are rather, how should I say, sarcastic when the mentioned person is the topic of conversation.
8) :wink:


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## rodentrancher (Mar 13, 2006)

Ummmm???" but he probably dribbles about the same amount of BS as most of the people on this site - as evidenced by fuscus poll ." Ooops! Must have missed the Fuscus poll. What was that about people?


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## Fuscus (Mar 13, 2006)

rodentrancher said:


> Ummmm???" but he probably dribbles about the same amount of BS as most of the people on this site - as evidenced by fuscus poll ." Ooops! Must have missed the Fuscus poll. What was that about people?


A joke entry on page one of this thread cheryl. I can't understand why it was singled out.


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## cwarren72 (Mar 13, 2006)

lmfao good one fuscy old man lol, I often wonder if there is any end to this bloke. I would love to know if he believes his own crap or maybe his mummy is telling him all this about how good he is. Snake Busters?? Doesn't that sound like someone who doesn't like snakes? I will put Steve against him any day..... Pft Hoser if you read this then would like to say get off your high horse before you fall and hurt yourself lol


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## cwarren72 (Mar 13, 2006)

Oh and fo the record we can use and say the name snake busters as much as we wish because it is also a business registered in the UK.....soooooo....Snake Busters.....Snake Busters.....Snake Busters.....Snake Busters.....Snake Busters.....Snake Busters.....Snake Busters.....Snake Busters....


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## shamous1 (Mar 16, 2006)

Hi all.

I've just been looking at some pics of a snake strapped to a table and having what I would think would be a rather stressful and painfull procedure.

I understand what all the fuss is about now and have changed my opinion on the matter a full 180 degress


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## Samma3l (Mar 16, 2006)

He was in the paper yesterday being photographed kissing his snakes and his "trademark" bajillion snakes around his head and putting on a huge bravado about it all.

Oh I just remembered reading how Ray likes to "test" if his venomoid snakes are still venomous. He uses live rats & mice which have to be put down because the snakes dont let go, not to mention the danger he puts the snakes in when the rodents could quite easily fight back effectively. I would have thought that the correct way would be to milk the snakes for venom but you just know that when your name is "Ray Hoser" you just _have_ to pay that sort of stuff off


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## Fuscus (Mar 16, 2006)

Samma3l said:


> ... I would have thought that the correct way would be to milk the snakes for venom...f


I can think of a *MUCH* better way for Hoser to test his victims. :twisted:


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## shamous1 (Mar 16, 2006)

How is it that this sort of stuff is allowed? I can't understand how a person can get away with what I would term cruelty to animals! :twisted: 

I for one will not be buying any more of his books. Maybe hurting the pocket will make him re-think his strategies? :x


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## Samma3l (Mar 16, 2006)

nah - wouldn't work shamous. He'd just invent more people to take his side. What he needs is a perpetual Ray Hoser anti-fan club heckling at him and displaying pictures of snakes taped to wooden blocks and displaying other various items of stupidity that he has done.


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## Samma3l (Mar 16, 2006)

Also, if anyone is interested, RSPCA Inspectorate's phone number for Victoria is (03) 9224 2222

Just incase you feel that Mr Hoser's actions warrant it


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 16, 2006)

i am a raymond hoser fan.

i don't care what is said. he's a far better role model than some other "leading herps" i know.

read his books, hell, just get on his website, once you read up a bit more, you'll see he's a top bloke.

i take people on face value, not speculation (spelling?)


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## Reptilegirl (Mar 16, 2006)

there are pics on his own site of strapped down snakes getting their sac's ripped out err i mean removed.. with no anesthesia.. how could anyone who cares for reptiles or any animal think he's a "top bloke" or a "role model"...... sorry but i just dont see it.. JMO
Megz


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 16, 2006)

read more into it.


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## Reptilegirl (Mar 16, 2006)

i have read and re-read the info on his site many times and it doesnt change my mind... am i missing the bits that make him a top bloke?? feel free to point them out to me...
Megz


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 16, 2006)

i'm gunna be frank, and i don't want to argue with anyone, so i'll say what u have to say, and leave it a that.

after reading his books and majority of his website, i have found him "in general" to be a patriot of australia, and a patriot of herpetology.
he has seen all sides of the spectrum, has supplied the herping world with a massive wealth of infomation, has seen more than you or i ever will, has dealt with tough times as a result of being in the lime light. he comes across a bit shabby, but if your every move was being watched by corrupt police and the media, you'd look shabby too. 

if every mistake i ever made was publicly torn to sheds by the media, i'd be herp public enemy number 1. just like everone else.

LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.


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## peterescue (Mar 16, 2006)

suddenly a rock sailed out of the crowd and hit the sinner on the head and killed them stone dead, Jesus turned to the crowd and singled out an old woman in blue robes, "sometimes I really hate you mum".


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## lutzd (Mar 16, 2006)

Not too shabby, Peter.


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## Kris (Mar 16, 2006)

lmao


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## Kris (Mar 16, 2006)

We're all laughing now, but what's gonna happen when some ultra right wing religious nut reads that one....


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## Moreliaman (Mar 16, 2006)

we have annoying people like that over here !...... Mark O'Shea.....i have unfortunatly met him & in my personal opinion he IS one of the biggest arrogant, big headed, rude, inconsiderate Arsewipes that i have ever had the displeasure of meeting and trying to talk to. :?


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## nigmax (Mar 16, 2006)

Kris said:


> We're all laughing now, but what's gonna happen when some ultra right wing religious nut reads that one....



UMMMMMM WHO CARES :twisted:


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## cwarren72 (Mar 16, 2006)

look at the end of the day those of us that have been into Herps for many years now and know anything about them and him find him to be an egotisticle, mineiacle, borish fool with no idea. As for his claims of Police harrasment that he goes on with well..........I can tell you first hand that if it were true and they wanted to get him they would have by now. I personally don't find him Knowledgable at all and in fact I find some of his practices (be they past or present) to be strange, Un-necessary and down right cruel. Tell you what Aztech why not let me strap you down and cut some of your guts out with nothing for the pain and see how you like it???? Oh but don't worry I will reassure you by saying it doesn't hurt at all so you'll be fine. He is a fool.... Hear that Hoser In my opinion you are a fool or is that tool??? Oh well something rythming with it


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## Moreliaman (Mar 16, 2006)

Yeah they are great role models.........i mean..........what idiot drives around africa at night looking for snakes on the road and when you find one......without correct identification.....picks it up......and then is surprised when he gets bitten !! and then subsquently rushed to the nearest hospital !.....good old mark o'shea....i watched it on tv...laffed so much i nearly cried. what a 24 carat dork :lol:


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## cwarren72 (Mar 16, 2006)

lol yeah I seen that to. The best part was the way he stood there for a minute wiping his face and looking at his hand trying to work out if he got bitten or not lmao


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## moosenoose (Mar 17, 2006)

Azztech said:


> LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.



Ummmm gimme a go! 8) 

For a start the reason he is watched by supposedly corrupt police is because he is a police corruption whistleblower - he himself alone is asking for the attention. It'd be a bit like wanting to become a nark in amongst an underworld mob, he has good reason to be worried, very worried. Anyway, that's his prob. He also likes to munch whole lettuces in the back of VHS meetings, he's an attention grabbing freak! :lol: 

The worst and singlemost thing about Ray Hoser is his "surgery practices", they are completely unethical! Someone on here had mentioned earlier as to why the RSPCA hasn't become involved due to Rays butchery with these animals- and the simple answer is, they aren't interested! Why they aren't interested is anyones guess and a clear reflection of the RSPCA's double standards when it comes to petshops and reptiles in general. How someone with absolutely *NO* training in veterinary proceedures (other than his own numerous fumblings) can get away with performing such operations is way beyond me. You'll find he may be a great guy, a fantastic bloke to talk to and knowledgable blah blah blah, but it still does not change the fact that his venomoid practices are cruel and unwarranted and simply performed to make him look like a bigger man whilst he is performing shows! You wanna see a freak show involving butchered animals- go and see one of Rays shows! End of story! :evil:


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 17, 2006)

> someone with absolutely NO training in veterinary proceedures (other than his own numerous fumblings)



thats rubbish. once again, read more, less speculation.


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## Stevo (Mar 17, 2006)

Cruelty to animals.................. The qld beardies was certainly cruelty to animals, all of his animals are healthy.
This topic has been done to death, revived done to death that many times. How would I like it if someone strapped me to a board and cut me open? Probably wouldn't like it all that much. Pain for the animals....... pain of a thread. Hoser has no knowledge......... More than most on here. Stevo likes milk............. So what it's his choice. Venomoids suck............. so do taxes. Sense and sensibility........... say what? 
Anyone understand me?

who really cares

SMS


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## Kris (Mar 17, 2006)

Nigmax....that was meant as a joke.....thought it would be obvious. If I was really concerned about what people thought I'd have asked if Pete thought it was appropriate, or something like that. Next time I'll remember to use a big flashing multicoloured "it's a joke" sign 

Azztech, I've tried on a couple of occasions to sift through the pages of articles on his site before and I haven't managed to find any mention of his veterinary training, and I'm obviously not the only person who can't find it. Since we probably don't all have the time or patience to read everything in order to find that one piece of information, perhaps you could direct us to where to find it???? I'm not jumping down your throat, nor am I accusing you of lying, just pointing out that if you're having trouble getting your point accross it might help to be specific, rather than to simply suggest we keep reading.

Cheers, Kersten.


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## chilli (Mar 17, 2006)

full agreement here, and the cane toad point was well made and should make half the mob go into hiding. now why couldn't you have posted a couple of days ago, lol. now we could probably leave the eccentric lad alone for a while, or til next time a similar thread starts.


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## munkee (Mar 17, 2006)

Having not heard about this fellow before. I read through some of his 'articles' Venemoid issue aside, if I were demonstrating australian venomous animals I would want everyone there to not go near them, not handle them, and as a general rule stay well away from them. My feeling is that people shouldn't ever get close enough to a wild venomous animal so they can use a shovel technique. I would want reinforce this fact by using tongs/hooks/whatever equipment necessary. If inexperienced people come along and free handle a captive venemoid Taipan that is very tame there is a good chance (I feel) that some one may think it a good idea to pick up one they find in the wild and cop a bite from something potentially lethal. 

I feel he does this procedure to reduce his insurance costs with little regard to the animal. It may feel fine after several weeks from the operation but they were also perfectly fine prior to the operation. Most here I think would feel that in keeping venomous animals you accept the risk that comes with it. His behaviour seems unlikely to change based on what I feel but I think his presenting practices are unsafe if he thinks he needs venemoids. 
My thoughts anyways


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## moosenoose (Mar 17, 2006)

Azztech said:


> > someone with absolutely NO training in veterinary proceedures (other than his own numerous fumblings)
> 
> 
> 
> thats rubbish. once again, read more, less speculation.



I'm not going to read through his drivel! I've seen his proceedure photographs and they are disgusting! Quit trying to justify what he does azzman! :?


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