# Lifting the ban on Exotics



## Namn8r (Mar 27, 2010)

Is anyone on this forum actively involved in negotiations to have the ban on exotics regulated or lifted?

Have any proposals been made for the import of same sex only (ie Males) or sterilised specimens?

If it was properly regulated and stock was chipped, and sterile this would reduce the environmentaly impact should stock escape.

Im sure with the amount of captive bred stock overseas these days imported stock could easily be screened and quarantined to ensure only healthy animals be imported as well.

What are your thoughts?


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## redbellybite (Mar 27, 2010)

My thoughts are ..A...a healthy retic alls good .....but then a thread reads HELP!!! my retic has escaped what should I do ? ....
whilst you say sterilisation ..maybe so ...but that dont stop that big fella having an impact on our wildlife now ...if you could guarentee ,that it would only ever feed on our ferrel animals and leave out native alone ...then yeah maybe I'd give it a thought ...but while human error is a possibility ..I am glad our laws are as tough as they are for now ..although dont get me wrong ,there are some exotics out there that I would love to have too


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## Namn8r (Mar 27, 2010)

Obviously species will have to be regulated. Some species such as Retics & burmese would probably be considered noxious and not allowed at all but that still leaves many highly desirable species that would have little environmental impact if any if properly regulated.

Consider also the cost factor of all of this. Sterilisation (desexing), Chipping, special licenses etc.. this would drive the prices of the animals up there and most likely restrict them to the serious hobbyist which also in turn would also reduce the likely hood of "help my .... has escaped"


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## chondrogreen (Mar 27, 2010)

It won't happen.
I have seen first hand how many exotic species already noxious in our wild.
Rescuers are often finding corns, boas & red eared sliders etc. For that reason the authorities will never allow it 
(just as they are often grey listing fish species these days)


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## Lewy (Mar 27, 2010)

This will never happen!!. People should be happy with the stunning animals we have here in Australia 

Exotics are nothing but a pain it Australia's butt!. You only have to open your eyes to know this


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## Fuscus (Mar 27, 2010)

Namn8r said:


> Obviously species will have to be regulated. Some species such as Retics & burmese would probably be considered noxious and not allowed at all but that still leaves many highly desirable species that would have little environmental impact if any if properly regulated.


And these species are?



Namn8r said:


> Consider also the cost factor of all of this. Sterilisation (desexing), Chipping, special licenses etc.. this would drive the prices of the animals up there and most likely restrict them to the serious hobbyist which also in turn would also reduce the likely hood of "help my .... has escaped"


And this would stop smuggling and the Illegal keeping of reptiles how?


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## caustichumor (Mar 27, 2010)

Maybe you should just wait a couple of years, After the forthcoming catastrophic global event that will shift all the land mass of earth into a new Gondwana. Maybe that was a movie I watched??? At any rate, they are both as likely to happen.


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## Adictv (Mar 27, 2010)

i would love some reps but at the end of the day IF and i really doubt it when i say IF such reps were aloud think how many greedy people would just want to breed them and "try" make money off it i really dont want exotics to be legal as LEWY said " People should be happy with the stunning animals we have here in Australia" we have some of the most amazing rep you could ever think of why spoil it? REALLY


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## Pythonking (Mar 27, 2010)

caustichumor said:


> Maybe you should just wait a couple of years, After the forthcoming catastrophic global event that will shift all the land mass of earth into a new Gondwana. Maybe that was a movie I watched??? At any rate, they are both as likely to happen.


 
2012 is coming


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## mouse_has_faith (Mar 27, 2010)

Personally I agree with being content with the reptiles we have in Australia. We have such a MASSIVE amount of reptiles here, honestly this is one of the best places to live if you like your reptiles. We have enough problems with feral animals without bringing any more in! And despite people's best efforts, it'll only be a matter of _when_ these animals escape into the wild.


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## JAS101 (Mar 27, 2010)

Lewy said:


> This will never happen!!. People should be happy with the stunning animals we have here in Australia
> 
> Exotics are nothing but a pain it Australia's butt!. You only have to open your eyes to know this


yup i agree 100% , if u want an exotic then move to a diffrent country . our natives are battling as is, without the help of more exotics .


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## krusty (Mar 27, 2010)

if it ever does happen i'm in i would give any thing to keep a retic,burmese or albino burmese....jmo.


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## krusty (Mar 27, 2010)

so thats like saying if you want to eat chinese food you have to move there.

wake up to your self............




ZOOJAS said:


> yup i agree 100% , if u want an exotic then move to a diffrent country ..


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## Chris1 (Mar 27, 2010)

so many species that have been introduced here just shouldnt be here,....lets hope they learned from previous mistakes and dont introduce any more potentially destructive animals.

we have the most beautiful wildlife here anyway, why would we need anything else!? 

its not only the espcapees, its also those twits that like a cute little baby snakey and once it gets big and unmanageable and they cant sell it they throw it in the bush at the back of their house,...


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## JAS101 (Mar 27, 2010)

krusty said:


> so thats like saying if you want to eat chinese food you have to move there.
> 
> wake up to your self............


lol chinese food and exotic wildlife are a little diffrent[ but i can understand if u cant tell the diffrence] . i have never herd of chinese food excaping and wreaking havoc on OUR native wildlife .


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## Pythonking (Mar 27, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> lol chinese food and exotic wildlife are a little diffrent[ but i can understand if u cant tell the diffrence] . i have never herd of chinese food excaping and wreaking havoc on OUR native wildlife .


 

Its a pretty clear cut arguement Zoo Exotics = chinese food??


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't see why everyone is so hyped over exotics when we have all the best species here NATIVE to Australia?


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## Waterrat (Mar 27, 2010)

This is bit old but it shows the effort by John Weigel (his name is misspelled in the document).

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committee: Commercial Utilisation of Australian Native Wildlife


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## syxxx (Mar 27, 2010)

My thoughts only but a restricted license system with a course involved would be the best situation. There would need to be breeding restrictions (preferably not bans) as some species can be produced in large numbers. These licensed people would be able to provide housing for exotics already here and then perhaps an amnesty (tried before) may work. This would need to be a national system and the license costs should include inspections.. If you provide a legal means to keep these animals then you reduce the number of illegal keepers. This system could also be used for other animals too reptiles aren't the only illegal animals brought into the country.
My thoughts only 
Cheers


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## Sock Puppet (Mar 27, 2010)

And I can't see hospitals start carrying vials of cobra, viper, etc AV for the exotic vens.


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## Daryl_H (Mar 27, 2010)

in my mind there would have to be realy tough guide lines invloved and a extra licence 
maybe costing 4-5 k a year and like a pool gate self locking door on the room they are kept in (escape proof dedicated room) maybe twice yearly checks to see the animals are being confined properly the high costs would deter most lazy epople how dose this sound? and also proof of animals death ie frozen till someone inspects


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## Origamislice (Mar 27, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> lol chinese food and exotic wildlife are a little diffrent[ but i can understand if u cant tell the diffrence] . i have never herd of chinese food excaping and wreaking havoc on OUR native wildlife .


 
Man thats a bit harsh don't you think? I completely agree with you but i think thats making it a bit personal?


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## Boondocker (Mar 27, 2010)

Were I the gatekeeper I probably wouldn't open the doors to giant stuff like burmese, anacondas and retics, but there are other species that easily controlled and make great pets such as captive bred sulcata tortoises.


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## Omgitschris (Mar 27, 2010)

i'd love to have a burm, but i think we should accept that their ( exotics ) a threat to our native fauna therefor shall never be kept in collections ( legally ) in australia. 
as for the rule breakers, they hopefully get whats coming to them.


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## Retic (Mar 27, 2010)

I can't see it ever happening as much as I would love it, the world is full of 1000's of truly amazing spectacular reptiles that we will never have the privilege to own and work with. It will no doubt remain illegal and completely unregulated which seems to be working well.


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## slim6y (Mar 27, 2010)

One vote for YES - let's bring exotics in....

I'm still waiting on my 5 savannah cats that I was going to breed.

So if you're going to bring in your cold blooded friends of desire I'm going to bring in my warm blooded versions!

At least the escaped Burmese Pythons will help control the wild populations of savannah cats.

The main point of juncture really is - even zoos have (had) escaped animals that are never found.

Let's just continually think back to the 'toad', 'opuntia' and any other disasters from the very similar question you just asked.


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## Bushfire (Mar 27, 2010)

I dont think the gov will ever allow it, as it stands now. They are pretty stub born on this and for them to bend their stance reptile keepers in general in Australia would have to be a very vocal group with very significant voting powers. Something that we are slowly getting there but in reality are quite some time away.

I can understand peoples desire on keeping or wanting to keep exotics. Some one told me its like....say the wildlife authorities only allowed native pythons to be kept legally. All those who want to keep pythons would be happy, and would be telling others just be happy with what we are allowed to keep. But all those not interested in pythons and wanting say bearded dragons or elapids would be up in arms wanting to be allowed to keep something different. The thing is every bodies interest in this hobby is different some things appeal to some people and not others. Just because you are happy with what we are allowed to keep that doesn't mean every one is and should just accept it. To those wanting legalized exotics I say good on you, keep up your fight and maybe one day you will get them.

If exotics were legalized, one problem I can see is if it was too regulated it wont encourage those with collections to transfer over to a new system. A system to be effective in minimizing illegal collections needs to be user friendly, make it too hard and no one will bother.


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## ToucanCR (Mar 27, 2010)

Pythonking said:


> 2012 is coming


Buy a solar panel and a DC fridge to keep the beer cold.


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## Jimbobulan (Mar 27, 2010)

It is rare to read an exotics thread and not see the word chameleon in every second thread, lol. I know that if only certain pythons were allowed then so many chameleon lovers would go nuts, not to mention the gecko enthusists wanting to get their hands on tokays and new calladonians. There are too many reps in the world to limit the types you can keep without upsetting people. Then the upset people protest and get their way and more are let in, then the bar is set and others petition for more and on and on. 
I think that there are so many aussie herps that are rarely kept and hard to geta hold of that we should focus on breeding our own species.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 27, 2010)

when chinese food can escape and out compete our native wild life then i will conceed the example is vaild but untill that happens i suggest you use a better one.


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## KatshirT (Mar 27, 2010)

Lets not get personal here but lets be simple... who here owns a dingo? answer is probaably no one.. so lets ask, who here owns a cat? well to those that answered yes I am going to tag you an exotic lover!

I am sure you get the point I am trying to make...

The simple fact is many exotics are simply released as the owners have no way of moving them on when they go overseas/interstate/change in personal cirumstances as they are illegal and so can't exactly advertise in for sale threads etc..

I can understand the push for natives as we have lovely reptiles all 3000 species of them and I doubt anyone can really name more than 50 of them so why bring in more? fact licences still restrict even native reptiles being kept and fact people still keep these natives so why are 'exotics' being treated so different?

Hell cats, dogs and birds can be brought in from other countries why are they considered different when our feral cat population is growing and dog attacks are almost a weekly occurance??

All just my opinion.. Flame suit on...


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## webcol (Mar 27, 2010)

I have not read all pages, but introducing more exotics is a stupid idea. And yes there is already exotics here, but why bring more, dont justify having excisting exotics as an excuse to import more. I ask you how many people already winge about cats ?


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## KatshirT (Mar 27, 2010)

Fair point... why not hold an amnesty and then lagalise what is already here???


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## Jungletrans (Mar 27, 2010)

There is an easy solution , when imported they are to be desexed and fitted with a small explosive charge screwed to their skull . This pellet must be reset every week or pop , escaped reptile = fertilizer .


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## webcol (Mar 27, 2010)

Jungletrans said:


> There is an easy solution , when imported they are to be desexed and fitted with a small explosive charge screwed to their skull . This pellet must be reset every week or pop , escaped reptile = fertilizer .



lol, could become expensive..:lol:


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## JAS101 (Mar 27, 2010)

Jungletrans said:


> There is an easy solution , when imported they are to be desexed and fitted with a small explosive charge screwed to their skull . This pellet must be reset every week or pop , escaped reptile = fertilizer .


that could work quite well


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## webcol (Mar 27, 2010)

Jungletrans said:


> There is an easy solution , when imported they are to be desexed and fitted with a small explosive charge screwed to their skull . This pellet must be reset every week or pop , escaped reptile = fertilizer .



I wonder how many threads we would find, titled oops i forgot to reset my snake again..


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## JAS101 (Mar 27, 2010)

orangesnake101 said:


> Man thats a bit harsh don't you think? I completely agree with you but i think thats making it a bit personal?


no notr personal , i wasnt the one who said anything about chinese food in the first place .i was replying to Krustys statment .


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## JAS101 (Mar 27, 2010)

webcol said:


> I wonder how many threads we would find, titled oops i forgot to reset my snake again..


yup, or my snake escaped and blew up my tv or lounge chair .


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## varanid_mike (Mar 27, 2010)

After all this country and the environment has been through dealing with and trying to eradicate exotic species the idea of the public being able to keep them is absurd, under any circumstance. Australians who love wildlife and the natural beauty of the country, who care about the future survival of native species and who have ever kept native animals (and care about them) would not even consider it.


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## krusty (Mar 27, 2010)

yes i know it was not a very good example,but all i was trying to say is people like different things.the system they have for the small amount of people that are legaly keeping exotics in vic is working fine.so maybe they could have another amnesty like they had back in the late 90's.





Hooglabah said:


> when chinese food can escape and out compete our native wild life then i will conceed the example is vaild but untill that happens i suggest you use a better one.


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## Australis (Mar 27, 2010)

We still have loads of native species suitable (and highly prized overseas)
that are yet to be established privately in Australia.
I guess a lot of google informed exotic worshipers are naive to this?


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## Ramsayi (Mar 27, 2010)

It will happen one day.Be back later I just have to finish writing a letter to santa.


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## D3pro (Mar 27, 2010)

I wan't some Rainbow Boa's... gimmie gimmie gimmie!!! 

Problem is with all these suggestions is that it's not going to stop crap..

De-sex the snake? people will bring breeding snakes in.
Try to keep a track record on exotics? there will appear black listed specimens.

Make exotics illegal all together? well we seem to have exotics right now... I could have one on my lap. (figure of speech)

I agree with KatshirT, what about cats? feral bastards are doing more damage then any snake could... but the problem is that the Cat industry is 100 (or more) times bigger then the herp industry. Most people still have the mentality that snakes are evil... While cats are cute and cuddly.

If snakes are accepted in moderns society as an adorable animal then maybe exotics will start coming in... but don't think for a moment that it can be regulated, it can't... 

I'm happy with our species right now... I'm still looking forward to keeping diamonds, Albino's and diamonds... Then I might try dragons, gecko's or monitors. I highly doubt most keepers have had the pleasure of keeping all of our species or reptiles, so why go onto exotics? 

Don't. Be. Greedy.


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## wiz-fiz (Mar 27, 2010)

TBH, i recon that if u wanna keep exotics, move to the states, they have aussie pythons there as well as exotics, and if u dont wanna move, then tough ****, this is aus, not sum country that is full of all sorts of animals and diseases. Sorry if that seems a bit aggressive, 

Will


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## webcol (Mar 27, 2010)

D3pro said:


> I wan't some Rainbow Boa's... gimmie gimmie gimmie!!!
> 
> Problem is with all these suggestions is that it's not going to stop crap..
> 
> ...



The problem is that traditionally cats have been domesticated long before there introduction here. They have also been kept and accepted by society long before reptiles were even considered a hobby. But as i mentioned earlier using cats as a justification for importing more exotics is a weak argument. There is already a problem here with exotics so why add to it, especially considering the amount of keepers that cannot contain there pets...


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## cement (Mar 27, 2010)

Namn8r said:


> Is anyone on this forum actively involved in negotiations to have the ban on exotics regulated or lifted?
> 
> What are your thoughts?



Ha ha! I love this opening line! Negotiations?????


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## Retic (Mar 27, 2010)

I accept the argument about cats as they have been here for years as pets BUT why allow people to advertise them free to good homes or sell them for $5 to anyone off the street ? When I wanted to bring a 2nd generation captive bred Leopard Tortoise into the country about 10 years ago I was told the risk to the environment was too great, if I had also wanted to bring in a cat or 2 that wouldn't have been a problem. The cats could legally eat every animal in my yard and a few blocks around, the tortoise would eat my flowers. 
I actually have no problem with exotics not being allowed and have long ago accepted it really wont happen but what I do hate is the hypocrisy.


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## Retic (Mar 27, 2010)

I was involved in the 'negotiations' in Victoria when they legalised a handful of animals, they listened to what we had to say, then ignored it and introduced unworkable rules so basically virtually no-one came forward. 



cement said:


> Ha ha! I love this opening line! Negotiations?????


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## Klaery (Mar 27, 2010)

I think eventually there will be some legalizing of exotics. Don't think it will be any time soon though. I am also not sure I agree with it.


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## syxxx (Mar 27, 2010)

Boa you may be able to shed more light on this issue but the wildlife officers I have spoken to on this issue just say there's not much we can do about illegals eg. under staffed and not a big enough push from above. It's as if the problem is too big to solve so the department doesn't believe they can solve the problem with the current legislation.


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## Retic (Mar 27, 2010)

There is absolutely no way in the world the department can have any affect on the number of exotics out there, virtually the only time they find any is if someone is busted for drugs or whatever and they come across snakes as well. It's impossible to say how many are out there but having spoken to many keepers it is clear that the numbers are huge and of course growing exponentially and they can't be made more illegal.


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## mattmc (Mar 27, 2010)

i havent read the thread. but im cool with some exotics, that are on a highly restricted basis of keeping and auditing. licenced of course.

and i know there are those (redbellybite) saying what if a male retic escapes... well, i think cane toads would do more damage to the environment than a few male retics, if thats how laws were based...only males being kept. 

just my few cents


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## mattmc (Mar 27, 2010)

in saying what i have said, theres probably no exotics that i would want to keep, however there would be easier access to white lipped pythons quite possibly - so thats a positive 

apart from that...each to there own. 

id still prefer it if you were allowed to keep eagles and buzzards and kites etc.


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## Reptile_Boy (Mar 27, 2010)

jeeze every body spits the dummy when it somes to exotics or having reptiles in pet shops.....ohnestly relax....im for both but i mean here in nsw we cant have reptiles in pet shops let alone exotics.....far off


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## redbellybite (Mar 27, 2010)

mattmc said:


> i havent read the thread. but im cool with some exotics, that are on a highly restricted basis of keeping and auditing. licenced of course.
> 
> and i know there are those (redbellybite) saying what if a male retic escapes... well, i think cane toads would do more damage to the environment than a few male retics, if thats how laws were based...only males being kept.
> 
> just my few cents


that was not my point at all ...I meant in general malesor females ...we would end up with a way bigger problem then you seem to think ...cane toads are a prime example....untill you live in a toad infested area ..you really dont have a clue on how they can thrive in the utmost terrible conditons ,that any of our frogs wouldnt stand a chance to survive in .

My point of the escape crap was ...if its anything to go by with how many are on APS and they are Aussie snakes that have escaped ...hell if I would like to read my exotics have escaped ....and thats only on here that we see ,who knows how many people are losing their snakes/lizards out there ...

and if they open to some species then as was said others would complain and want other species as well ..so couldnt speculate ..its all to much of a headache..

plus it means more venomous exotics (which dont get me wrong I drool at some of the species) but first aid would have to be reviewd .......... 
a passage from AVRU about 


*'Exotic Snakes*






*First aid for exotic snake envenomation will depend on the species.*
Australia is home to the most venomous species of snake in the world. Fortunately, the pressure-immobilisation technique provides effective first aid for envenomation by any of the dangerous species. Also, effective antivenoms have been developed for all of them.
The same is not true of snakes which are native to other parts of the world. In some cases of envenomation, pressure-immobilisation may be contraindicated and in others ineffective. There are antivenoms for most dangerous species'


So it would be bloody confusing for hospitals and paramedics alike ,at the moment they are all aware of the first aid needed for our own ...believe me they dont need any extra pressure dealing with exotic vens ...aussie vens keep them busy enough


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## Sturdy (Mar 27, 2010)

I would like to own some naja. 

I think the fear here is with your joe blogs living down the road who wants to get a corn as their first snake and then of course leading to the " help my corn has escaped" 

Set the licensing for a exotic permit to be extremely regulated and quite expensive, this way only the very devoted hobbyists will do it.


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## Kenno (Mar 27, 2010)

It's going to take one hell of a big mop and bucket to soak up the dribble in this thread.


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## webcol (Mar 27, 2010)

Sturdy said:


> I would like to own some naja.
> 
> I think the fear here is with your joe blogs living down the road who wants to get a corn as their first snake and then of course leading to the " help my corn has escaped"
> 
> Set the licensing for a exotic permit to be extremely regulated and quite expensive, this way only the very devoted hobbyists will do it.



Maybe the best idea forwarded yet, i have been hearing alot of make them legal but not much solution,


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## redbellybite (Mar 27, 2010)

Sturdy said:


> I would like to own some naja.
> 
> I think the fear here is with your joe blogs living down the road who wants to get a corn as their first snake and then of course leading to the " help my corn has escaped"
> 
> Set the licensing for a exotic permit to be extremely regulated and quite expensive, this way only the very devoted hobbyists will do it.


 can see your point ...but no matter how well informed you are or how much money you have ..that wont stop the likes of knob heads ripping off your collection ..its happened to the best of herpers/keepers, and it only takes one person that you think you can trust ,that knows about your collection to say ''i got a mate ........" in a general convo and it can come all undone ....


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## Glimmerman (Mar 27, 2010)

I believe that their should be something done about exotics... Not for importation, but for the ones already here kept and bred by reptile enthusiasts. 

If anything I think DECC should have atleast a ballot to identify who has what or atleast what species of exotics are here in Oz. I think a lot of ppl on thus forum would be shocked at the outcome.

It is fine to say it won't happen, but they are here so lets focus on that. 

There's my 5 cents worth for a Saturday night. Happy herping


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## Noongato (Mar 27, 2010)

History has already done this, except it was a bunch of sugar cane farmers who nagged to have cane toads imported to control some pesky bugs.
What could go wrong? Seriously, theyre only a few hundred toads....

Asking to import more foreign species' just sounds like "Please mommy, gimme one more chance, it wont happen this time, i promise!!"


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## webcol (Mar 27, 2010)

midnightserval said:


> History has already done this, except it was a bunch of sugar cane farmers who nagged to have cane toads imported to control some pesky bugs.
> What could go wrong? Seriously, theyre only a few hundred toads....
> 
> Asking to import more foreign species' just sounds like "Please mommy, gimme one more chance, it wont happen this time, i promise!!"



Best post yet..


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## OReilly (Mar 27, 2010)

Well, it's just like how being homosexual was illegal in Australia but since so many people were being gay anyway, they decided to make it legal... so many people smoke weed in America these days that they have started de-criminalising it. It's a case of majority over law. People lose 'legal' pets all the time in Australia... What about when someone's pet reptile from northern queensland in the rainforest escapes out into somewhere into the dry areas of NSW? It is no different to someone losing their desexed Corn Snake out into their garden or pet chameleon out their window which manages to get out into the bushlands of Australia  Another point, Each exotic pet could be microchipped as well and if someone found someone's exotic pet out in the wild they would call some kind of wildlife service if they were smart and it can be returned to it's owner. If they took it to the vet or rang the RSPCA, the officer would notice it's an exotic animal straight away and send it to the corresponding authority for exotic wildlife where it can be returned to it's owner. There are currently quite alot of exotic species of reptiles kept in Australia as is... why not make some kind of compromise to making someone a criminal for keeping an animal they found out about as a kid or on the internet that they love so much they will break the law to keep it?
I just think Australia is a bit of a sour puss towards laws... No R Rated games allowed... No exotic animals... I think making them all one sex or desexing them first is a great compromise. It wouldn't have much of an effect on the environment anyway if done correctly...

FYI, i don't own any exotic animals... I may be in favour of them becoming legal, but they are still illegal in Australia.


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## Dragontamer (Mar 27, 2010)

By the way guys there are a few people with exhibitors licenses that are getting burms and stuff legally so if you really want them it can be done.


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## webcol (Mar 27, 2010)

OReilly said:


> Well, it's just like how being homosexual was illegal in Australia but since so many people were being gay anyway, they decided to make it legal... so many people smoke weed in America these days that they have started de-criminalising it. It's a case of majority over law. People lose 'legal' pets all the time in Australia... What about when someone's pet reptile from northern queensland in the rainforest escapes out into somewhere into the dry areas of NSW? It is no different to someone losing their desexed Corn Snake out into their garden or pet chameleon out their window which manages to get out into the bushlands of Australia  Another point, Each exotic pet could be microchipped as well and if someone found someone's exotic pet out in the wild they would call some kind of wildlife service if they were smart and it can be returned to it's owner. If they took it to the vet or rang the RSPCA, the officer would notice it's an exotic animal straight away and send it to the corresponding authority for exotic wildlife where it can be returned to it's owner. There are currently quite alot of exotic species of reptiles kept in Australia as is... why not make some kind of compromise to making someone a criminal for keeping an animal they found out about as a kid or on the internet that they love so much they will break the law to keep it?
> I just think Australia is a bit of a sour puss towards laws... No R Rated games allowed... No exotic animals... I think making them all one sex or desexing them first is a great compromise. It wouldn't have much of an effect on the environment anyway if done correctly...
> 
> FYI, i don't own any exotic animals... I may be in favour of them becoming legal, but they are still illegal in Australia.



If done correctly, im sure you have noticed all the escaped snakes thread recently, surely this shows it wouldn't work. 
People need to stop thinking of them selfs and think more about the big picture, protecting biodiversity. I think the brown tree snake situation in guam, and the exotic problems in america should be evidence enough that exotics shouldn't be introduced.


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## Namn8r (Mar 28, 2010)

If I had known people wouldnt actually read the thread first I wouldnt have bothered posting...

Why do exotics get smuggled in? Because we dont have them here and the grass is always greener on the otherside.. .. Black market exotics will probably never go away. There will always be the trade at some level whether be great or small. 

My thoughts on allowing regulated importation of sterile, same sex animals would probably reduce the demand for Black market specimans. 

If animals are properly regulated and chipped they can be monitored by means of yearly scans etc, any escapees and the owner can receive a hefty fine which can then help fund the regulation of the animals.

Consider that illegal exotics are already here and some are already presently escaping and establishing wild populations, if we allowed legal sterile animals into the country and if sterile males escaped, they would infact compete for mating rights with other wild exotic males therefore slowing down the growth of existing populations.

Im trying to offer potential solutions so please stick to the topic and only post if you have something constructive to say, Im not really interested in hearing exotics versus natives.


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## Pythonking (Mar 28, 2010)

Namn8r said:


> If I had known people wouldnt actually read the thread first I wouldnt have bothered posting...
> 
> Why do exotics get smuggled in? Because we dont have them here and the grass is always greener on the otherside.. .. Black market exotics will probably never go away. There will always be the trade at some level whether be great or small.
> 
> ...


 

Namn8r you opened a thread and posed your thoughts on a subject where your going to get varied strong responses from people so live with the responses positive of negative. In the end it won't happen biosecurity is the main focus of the epa on the current laws and no matter how much anyone tries the government doesn't want to risk another cane toad theasco even if the risk is perceived as minimal.


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## NoURdeadRight (Mar 28, 2010)

we need to introduce something to kill all these dam cane toads.


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## webcol (Mar 28, 2010)

NoURdeadRight said:


> we need to introduce something to kill all these dam cane toads.



Because introducing species to cull other species has worked...
why were the cane toads bought here ?


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## NoURdeadRight (Mar 28, 2010)

havn't seen a cane beetle since 1995


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## Waterrat (Mar 28, 2010)

NoURdeadRight said:


> havn't seen a cane beetle since 1995



Where, in Antarctica? 
Come to my place - you will see heaps of them every night around my insect light.


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## NoURdeadRight (Mar 28, 2010)

Be patient the toads know what to do. Im only joking mate, i hate toads.


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## NoURdeadRight (Mar 28, 2010)

why are some people allowed to keep non native green tree python from png? do they have special permission or licences? what other png snake are available to keep? white lips?


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## zack13 (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm not particularly for or against, however I am curious to know if all the people who are saying it would destroy our wildlife and biodiversity keep local specific animals to where they are or do they themselves keep exotics (maybe not exotics to australia) to the area that they live? If so why wouldnt you want exotics if your already taking the chance of destroying your local wildlife?


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## NoURdeadRight (Mar 28, 2010)

Exotics run the risk of becoming a pest and carrying diesese.
Release of native captive breed animals can pollute pure wild life stock.


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## Kyro (Mar 28, 2010)

Namn8r said:


> If I had known people wouldnt actually read the thread first I wouldnt have bothered posting...
> 
> Why do exotics get smuggled in? Because we dont have them here and the grass is always greener on the otherside.. .. Black market exotics will probably never go away. There will always be the trade at some level whether be great or small.
> 
> ...



The problem with this idea is that keepers still wouldn't be happy because they wouldn't be able to breed them so there would still be a large demand for black market specimens, as you said the grass is always greener


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## mattmc (Mar 28, 2010)

now that ive caught time to read the thread, and had time to comprehend what has been stated, if you want exotics, go somewhere else  except bring in the white lips, thats all i want *whsitle*


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## unique (Mar 28, 2010)

you know what.....the system is a joke i wouldn't 
be surprised if they did make up some sort of exotic 
keeping license...png greens are a good example...
they were over whelmed with them so they caved. 
imo they should have treated them like any other 
exotic and only let Aussie natives in. they basically encouraged smuggling.

i could think of so many reasons why the system is a joke....its funny


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## NoURdeadRight (Mar 28, 2010)

NoURdeadRight said:


> why are some people allowed to keep non native green tree python from png? do they have special permission or licences? what other png snake are available to keep? white lips?


 
Who can answer this???


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## Bushfire (Mar 28, 2010)

When oh when will people start to learn! When it comes to anything wildlife/conservation related its purely a political game, the only thing that matters to our decision makers are the votes. Look at the cane toad, the government KNEW it would fail but allowed it because of the political influences of the cane growers at the time. If they didn't they would have lost power. 

More recently in NSW, cage sizes etc etc, it has nothing to do with animal welfare its more got to do with pleasing the voters. The animal welfare organisations are more organised, better prepared, have some political influence, and more 'general' public support compared to reptile keepers. We can have all the scientific papers in the world to support our cause but until we as reptile keepers have abit more political bite we are easy targets and we more often lose. But instead we are too busy fighting among ourselves over such little and insignificant things.

We wont get exotics just handled to us with them saying its too big of a problem you may as well have them legally. We will only get them when we demand it and have enough political sway. At the moment our numbers are too small, some where I read we have something like 1 in 300 homes have reptiles. We will firstly need to bring those numbers up even more (maybe cheaper reptiles will do this). If we use an APS poll done a little while ago 75% who answered said they would keep exotics if legal (despite peoples concerns about the potential effects). When you start adding the numbers, you are starting to get somewhere. Bypass the middle men (departments) and go straight to the decision makers. So in short stop wasting your time trying to sway departments with reasoning, logic arguments and pick up a book on the world of politics; you will get much further.

In all this our newly formed National Reptile Keepers Association has gone missing on this and many other issues.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 28, 2010)

PNG GTP's were here before the reptile amnesty.
Those that were in Aus were deemed allowable BUT alot more have been illegally added to collections since then. 
It is a simple case of scumbags writing them into their books as offspring from the original "deemed" animals and they becoming somewhat legal.


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## NoURdeadRight (Mar 28, 2010)

thanks chrondo, ive always wondered how they got here legally. I want one dirt cheap.


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## Jimi (Mar 28, 2010)

No keeper needs to have an exotic, it comes down to greed in the end.
Be happy with what we have, we are lucky to have this much.


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## Stevo2 (Mar 28, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> PNG GTP's were here before the reptile amnesty.
> Those that were in Aus were deemed allowable BUT alot more have been illegally added to collections since then.
> *It is a simple case of scumbags writing them into their books as offspring from the original "deemed" animals and they becoming somewhat legal*.


 
Until DNA lineage is tested... lol. Karma's a bitch and hopefully it'll catch these chaps out...


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## syxxx (Mar 28, 2010)

Can anyone shed anymore light on the reptile keepers association and what they have/are actively doing for the hobby?


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## Klaery (Mar 28, 2010)

Bushfire is on the money and that is exactly why i think it will eventually happen (no i don't want it to but i think it will). Look how many tropical fish are currently imported every week.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 28, 2010)

danielk said:


> Bushfire is on the money and that is exactly why i think it will eventually happen (no i don't want it to but i think it will). Look how many tropical fish are currently imported every week.


 
And look at how many tropical fish are now classed as noxious OR risk of noxious leading them to be added to the grey list which can not be imported. It will never happen. The amount of exotic reptiles collected from rescuers on a call out over the years is phenomenal. The authorities are aware of this and have no intention of ever allowing them into the country especially when we already have problems with them (red eared slider populations, escaped or dumped corns & boas. Milk & king snakes just to name a few known pests already established in our land). It is getting harder and harder to import cats, dogs fish & birds these days. Soon they too will more then likely be cancelled from importation and we will all have to be happy with what we have got (unless you care to finance a blackmarket)


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## Klaery (Mar 28, 2010)

Oh don't get me wrong, *I don't think it is a good idea* Just saying that my belief is it will one day happen. Yes they have the grey list, but they also have the live import list which is rather massive (and also gets added to). Why don't they just stop fish importing altogether? I mean if they are that serious about it and it has nothing to do with money/size of the hobby you would think it would have happened already.


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## syeph8 (Mar 28, 2010)

webcol said:


> The problem is that traditionally cats have been domesticated long before there introduction here. They have also been kept and accepted by society long before reptiles were even considered a hobby. But as i mentioned earlier using cats as a justification for importing more exotics is a weak argument. There is already a problem here with exotics so why add to it, especially considering the amount of keepers that cannot contain there pets...



I couldnt agree more, cat owners are not controlling their pets, I know ONE (lonely and singular number one) cat owner out of 30 or 40 odd who keeps their cat strictly and SOLELY on their premesis unless transporting it to and from appointments etc. get rid of the cats, dont let in any other exotics because, as stated, people as a general rule are irresponsible and dont care about our native wildlife. cats are as bad or worse than any other pest cause ppl will crack the sads if you shoot one over a fox who is just as domesticated as the cats. i would KILL to own some certain exotics and know that i bloody sure wouldnt let one escape, spread disease etc. BUUUUT i am 100% against letting the into the country due to idiots and 100% fine with the fact that i wont own an exotic as a price i pay for other idiots not being in the position to be able to readily destroy my country.
long and the short of it, exotics bad. dont use cats as an example of why exotics are good, and dont say they are domesticated because if given the chance they would kill more wildlife in one day than they could consume in a lifetime.

sye


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## Stevo2 (Mar 28, 2010)

.


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## Klaery (Mar 28, 2010)

deleted


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 28, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> dont use cats as an example of why exotics are good, and dont say they are domesticated because if given the chance they would kill more wildlife in one day than they could consume in a lifetime.
> 
> sye


Lol my cat has trouble killing a cockroach

Thanks Gex


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## RELLIK81 (Mar 29, 2010)

i would love to get exotics...i like em....but if it dont happen im not fussed....i like the natives we have here just as much if not more.....whats not to like


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## GreggMadden (Mar 30, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> lol chinese food and exotic wildlife are a little diffrent[ but i can understand if u cant tell the diffrence] . i have never herd of chinese food excaping and wreaking havoc on OUR native wildlife .


 
I do agree that Chinese food is not getting into your native wildlife populations and causing damage BUT, I will bet my last dollar that your native wildlife is in fact getting into chinese food... LOL


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## toximac (Mar 31, 2010)

I agree with the post, I think if they regulated it, no dogey dealings would go on that would threaten our wildlife in rebellious behavior to laws that have no meaning... Like tax on alco pop when beer is drank by bogans and they cause the most fights...
But pointless laws that need to be changed, people say 'just move', but we shouldn't have to, we should be allowed the freedoms of keeping exotics if regulated and in captivity..there is no harm at all. If people kill corn snakes they catch, or kill cane toads... how is it any different than keeping a reptile in captivity until it dies...
Some people I think are too scared to question it due to historic quarantine issues but good thread, It opens minds up a little to how it could be done - I don't believe in 2012 either, prob a scam like Y2K bug lol


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## Australis (Mar 31, 2010)

*Alien Predators Are More Dangerous Than Native Predators*
Alien Predators Are More Dangerous Than Native Predators

^
I would rather see a dodgy patterned carpet (because of non locale carpet escapees)
than seeing exotic pests.


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## Boondocker (Mar 31, 2010)

I think painting all exotics with the 'exotic pests' brush is rather myopic, as is labeling them all predators. They are not all predators. What about captive bred exotic tortoises, for example. A great pet, interesting captives, harmless. We're missing out on a whole world out there. My opinion is that a more discriminating paintbrush that is capable of discerning harmless stuff like captive bred tortoises from the truly harmful pests such as B marinus, would be of much more benefit to everyone than hysterical, dogmatic brainwashing that prescribes burning at the stake of anything exotic.


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## chondrogreen (Mar 31, 2010)

Boondocker said:


> I think painting all exotics with the 'exotic pests' brush is rather myopic, as is labeling them all predators. They are not all predators. What about captive bred exotic tortoises, for example. A great pet, interesting captives, harmless. We're missing out on a whole world out there. My opinion is that a more discriminating paintbrush that is capable of discerning harmless stuff like captive bred tortoises from the truly harmful pests such as B marinus, would be of much more benefit to everyone than hysterical, dogmatic brainwashing that prescribes burning at the stake of anything exotic.


 
Yep and all those established colonies of red eared sliders throughout Sydney are proof of this isn't it


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## Boondocker (Mar 31, 2010)

Let me me clear this up for you. I'm referring to the family _Testudinidae_ (Tortoises)


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## chondrogreen (Mar 31, 2010)

OK well land Tortoises still eat some live foods.
Adding to our already established food chain is going to cause decline somewhat.
An escaped Tortoise won't be so harmless to *add species here*. The fact is whatever is added to our wildlife will become an additional predator to something whether it be fauna, flora or both. JMO


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## Lewy (Mar 31, 2010)

I just don't seem to get why all the people that are for it can't seem to understand it NOT a good idea.. 
And It realy doesn't matter what kind of Conditions you are to follow people will still let animals go and or loose them 

This is the one thing the government has gotten right.. keeping exotic animals out the best they can... Every time a new animal is introduced or a native animal dies it puts a huge strain on our ecosystem.. Its not rocket science


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## unique (Mar 31, 2010)

Lewy said:


> I just don't seem to get why all the people that are for it can't seem to understand it NOT a good idea..
> And It realy doesn't matter what kind of Conditions you are to follow people will still let animals go and or loose them


 
Lewy they understand perfectly well that its not a good idea...they just simply don't care. 

same with hybrids...they ''understand'' that hybridising can
lead to health problems and defects....they just don't care.


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## Boondocker (Mar 31, 2010)

These two responses are exactly the kind of brainwashed dogma I referred to in my post above. Dogma that lumps all taxa into the category of doom. Shrill, misinformed talk against even phytophagous pet tortoises epitomises my point nicely.


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## slim6y (Mar 31, 2010)

Boondocker said:


> These two responses are exactly the kind of brainwashed dogma I referred to in my post above. Dogma that lumps all taxa into the category of doom. Shrill, misinformed talk against even phytophagous pet tortoises epitomises my point nicely.



It's interesting you'll use words like myopic instead of short sightedness - yet you're statements appear more short sighted than the combination of everyone else's in the thread.

I realise this may seem as a direct attack on your status - but believe me, it's the comment I am arguing with here.

All imported species - ALL - yes I mean ALL (including us white folk) will have some (whether minimal or not) impact on our environment whether regulated or not.

Tortoises may well have a 'low' impact... But not a NO impact. 

Tortoises may well be cute, cuddly and 50 years lived.... But really.... They still have an impact.

Whether you like it or not, it will be a negative one.

Could a tortoise spread a disease? 

Could a tortoise begin favouring a rare native plant (quite possible)?

Could a tortoise out compete our native herbivores (unlikely I agree - but possible)?

All I am saying is - you state people on here are narrow minded - yet the same narrow minded view allowed toads into this country...

I'm sorry... as much as I would LOVE a tortoise, I can't accept that more exotics into this country are either needed or should be allowed.

Leave my narrow mind on that


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## krissy78 (Mar 31, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> lol chinese food and exotic wildlife are a little diffrent[ but i can understand if u cant tell the diffrence] . i have never herd of chinese food excaping and wreaking havoc on OUR native wildlife .


 
Funny that's the same thought I had, you just can't use the chinese food in this debate.


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## Lewy (Mar 31, 2010)

slim6y said:


> It's interesting you'll use words like myopic instead of short sightedness - yet you're statements appear more short sighted than the combination of everyone else's in the thread.
> 
> I realise this may seem as a direct attack on your status - but believe me, it's the comment I am arguing with here.
> 
> ...


 
Nicely said


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## toximac (Mar 31, 2010)

Lewy said:


> I just don't seem to get why all the people that are for it can't seem to understand it NOT a good idea..
> This is the one thing the government has gotten right.. keeping exotic animals out the best they can... Every time a new animal is introduced or a native animal dies it puts a huge strain on our ecosystem.. Its not rocket science


Why do 'people' excuse it just because they think its not a 'good idea' and say the gov. has got it right when clearly yes..it isn't rocket science.. its a matter of balance and regulation.. YET they seem to just excuse this point and say every single introduced animal to natives die?.. What about the grub they introduced to kill cactus's.. If its heavily researched and introduced in these days, things are fine. Instead of arrogance and saying "oh its not rocket science" how about you look into why we've had disasters and what research was done.. You would see there was next to none. 




unique said:


> Lewy they understand perfectly well that its not a good idea...they just simply don't care.
> 
> same with hybrids...they ''understand'' that hybridising can
> lead to health problems and defects....they just don't care.



What a joke.. What don't they care about reptiles? be more specific. Putting a judgemental statement that all hybridising people don't care on health problems and defects shows how close minded one can be. I do NOT understand perfectly well its NOT a good idea. I KNOW it can be done, and KNOW you could introduce species that would have no effect by research & examples of introductions else ware. 
Why Do these people who excuse this think their higher and more caring.. its beyond me.





Boondocker said:


> These two responses are exactly the kind of brainwashed dogma I referred to in my post above. Dogma that lumps all taxa into the category of doom. Shrill, misinformed talk against even phytophagous pet tortoises epitomises my point nicely.


 
I agree with you Boondocker, your argument is valid yet they have to relate it to spiders and give you a wish washy excuse on what the escaped tortoise might eat natives. Again, No question on why research can't be done, just an accusation on their part. 
This is why I Can't stand Australians patriotism/Pride.. these people are stuck in some kinda ego that stops them from 'traveling' and discovering exotics benefits and effects. They say "well move to another country"...Their excuse to anything and everything, true arrogance.


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## Lewy (Mar 31, 2010)

Toximac You just don't seem to get it.. Australia has its own ecosystem and when another animal or insect is introduced it Will put another species of animal/ insect in jeopardy 

It realy dose not matter how you word it it will still have the same outcome... Every thing needs to eat one way or another and if some other species come in and starts to fight for survival and start eating the same food that a native animal eats to survive it will put that animal in stress of running out of food 

Again pretty simply logic's realy.. It really is just greediness that makes people want to have exotics here and I stand by what I say. These people realy don't give too craps about Australia's ecology what so ever


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## arbok (Mar 31, 2010)

toximac said:


> Why do 'people' excuse it just because they think its not a 'good idea' and say the gov. has got it right when clearly yes..it isn't rocket science.. its a matter of balance and regulation.. YET they seem to just excuse this point and say every single introduced animal to natives die?.. What about the grub they introduced to kill cactus's.. If its heavily researched and introduced in these days, things are fine. Instead of arrogance and saying "oh its not rocket science" how about you look into why we've had disasters and what research was done.. You would see there was next to none.
> 
> *why dont you get over your dim witted perception that humanity is more intelligant then nature...  everything seemed to work fine before we put our foot in it, so why would we go and do it again? *
> 
> ...


 
*I may be arrogant, but ur ignorant, i love Australia and its beautiful ecosystem and thinking of cane toads marching accross our country already kills me inside. So why dont you, get over your selfish little desire to own a tortoise and enjoy what you have got.*


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## toximac (Mar 31, 2010)

hahah - Cane toads are cute.. how do they kill you inside?.. I never mentioned Cane toads, i mentioned grubs that were introduced to cactus here in Australia, thats been a success. And if you read my post, I said historically things were not researched as they are today, and cane toads being one of them. I enjoy where I live, doesn't mean Im any less because " I don't love it as much as you"... yes. Thats arrogance and ignorance to what Ive written, cudos.


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## arbok (Mar 31, 2010)

toximac said:


> hahah - Cane toads are cute.. how do they kill you inside?.. I never mentioned Cane toads, i mentioned grubs that were introduced to cactus here in Australia, thats been a success. And if you read my post, I said historically things were not researched as they are today, and cane toads being one of them. I enjoy where I live, doesn't mean Im any less because " I don't love it as much as you"... yes. Thats arrogance and ignorance to what Ive written, cudos.


 
you have this amazing ability to just miss the point....  seems to be reoccuring in all your posts


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## slim6y (Mar 31, 2010)

toximac said:


> hahah - Cane toads are cute.. how do they kill you inside?.. I never mentioned Cane toads, i mentioned grubs that were introduced to cactus here in Australia, thats been a success. And if you read my post, I said historically things were not researched as they are today, and cane toads being one of them. I enjoy where I live, doesn't mean Im any less because " I don't love it as much as you"... yes. Thats arrogance and ignorance to what Ive written, cudos.



Cactoblastus was introduced to kill another pest - Opuntia - as you suggested, opuntia was poorly researched. But cactoblastus was brought in because it was to be used as a biocontrol agent, not a pet.

Cane toads were researched, but released before the research was concluded, by an arrogant and ignorant Gordonvale farmer.

Tortoises - sure, research. But I'd like to see 30 years minimum research in at least several environments with various reptiles, mammals, marsupials etc etc.

I'm afraid it is a bit of a selfish request to allow exotics into the country.

It's selfish based on the fact that one way or another it will have a negative impact - whether it's a temporary negative impact, permanent negative impact or anywhere in between.

If only other countries realised this before introducing exotics...

And is the USA (Florida) not the best example ever?

Even with stringent regulations - the overall outcome is still negative.

I'm happy with going to the zoo to see the 20 foot rectic.... And that's my unselfish attitude that allows Australia to continue to develop as a biodiverse country with limited exotic fauna and flora.

Narrow view concluded (again).


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## toximac (Mar 31, 2010)

That comment was to arboks response, not for you to comment on about cane toads. I know their an exotic pest.

Im afraid your arrogant into thinking all exotics are harmful ... Look at the benefits Cows, sheep, Pigs, CHICKEN, any farm Animals That give US FOOD!! Even Rats we breed for reptiles Reaps Huge social benefits. 
The Benefit for bringing in reptiles is Pet value, and isn't that what Most of you have, "PETS".. Even though some may have no enviromental impact, your too closed minded to even question it and just label all exotics as harmful.
Selfish? Im sorry Slim6y.. White people didn't OWN Australia, but they fled here and killed off native aborigines and used agriculture to reproduce numbers, I find Humans are Selfish regardless, its a fact of life. Exotic Fish imported from Indonesia ect and OUR country is fine with it. You cannot stop the inevitable, just like gay marriage, its bound to happen.. Aswell as exotics, eventually.. Corn snakes are gonna take over Newcastle and so will Milksnakes in many other regions. 
So you can continue to be all free loving hippy and deny you keep pets, when i'llgo eat my KFC, Eat my Double quarter pounders (australian beef) mmmm, breed my rats to feed my snakes and you can continue wingeing about exotics, I'll think of the benefits.


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## slim6y (Mar 31, 2010)

Sheep, pigs, cows etc and etc are the scurge on this country - deofrestation (for farms), excessive irrigation, fertiliser run-off, methane production etc etc...

I'm afraid the news is all bad for us... We're a terrible race of animals - we're shockingly ignorant and sellfish.

So your argument, if I am right, is:

"We've already nabbed up our environment so what's wrong with nabbing it up some more?"

And my comments earlier suggested white folk were also a pest - I already know that.

My mind is far from closed toximac - please define what you believe is a closed mind (you can pm that to me so we stay on topic here) - but for definitions I'd suggest a closed mind is one who can't accept that other's may be right/correct.

Now I've never thought you were incorrect - and i did suggest I had a narrow point of view (I ended with narrow view concluded) - however you suggest now I am more narrow minded than your suggestion - bringing in exotics under the pretense we'll study them first....

Will you fund this?

There is NO animal here that will provide no or minimal impact that's why we don't need to nab up our environment any more... Case closed - narrow view or not! 

So - when you can provide evidence to suggest bringing in exotics will be beneficial to Australia's environment, social and economic then I'll consider swaying my argument. But so far the arguments provided are incredibly weak like a Victorian beer.

good luck, I'm a difficult person to sway... And I want a tortoise too!


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## FAY (Mar 31, 2010)

Everytime a thread starts about exotics it ends up the same way. Same ole..same ole..arguing and name calling

But like politics and religion...no one ever agrees


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## Colin (Mar 31, 2010)

FAY said:


> Everytime a thread starts about exotics it ends up the same way. Same ole..same ole..arguing and name calling
> 
> But like politics and religion...no one ever agrees



:lol: maybe we should have another hybrid thread instead


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