# 8 Reasons Not To Use Breeder's Choice



## MrBredli (May 22, 2007)

I feel this is an important topic, so have given this previous post it's own thread...


1. It causes problems when sloughing due to the extreme high absorbency of the pellets (sucks all of the moisture out of the air).

2. Respiratory problems due to excessive dust, particularly common with snakes/lizards that dig underneath it.

3. Possibillity of pieces getting stuck in the snakes mouth, or consumed then causing impaction.

4. It encourages people to 'spot clean' instead of disinfecting the cage thoroughly. Often urine will soak through to the floor and will be absorbed by pellets which are then left behind when cleaning. Also, most people won't bother to disinfect the floor, they just scoop and replace leaving all the bacteria behind. This is a very bad practice.

5. It is often hard to notice when your snake has relieved itself, especially if it has only urinated and even moreso if the cage has a lot of decorations (eg. fake plants). You should see what the result is if these urine soaked pellets are left in a cage for several weeks/months!

6. Although not usually as serious as the abovementioned, another problem i came across was when my White's Skinks who through the course of digging/burrowing in it, would fill the water bowl up with pellets, which would quickly suck up all of the water, leaving you with some thirsty lizards!

7. I have also heard stories of people finding staples and other such things in their pellets which obviously can't be good.

8. Mites love it!

I hope this is enough to steer you guys clear of this product. Really when you weigh up all the risks it just isn't worth it, especially when you have newspaper, which does the job perfectly, so freely available.

Cheers

Brendon


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## Forensick (May 22, 2007)

but paper isnt very pretty


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## inthegrass (May 22, 2007)

not to much wrong with paper.
cheers


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## krissy78 (May 22, 2007)

Thanks MrBredli, I believe that if you would take the time to write this you know what u are talking about... I will be steering clear of breeders choice. I have not used it b4 but had been considering it until now.


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## MMAnne (May 22, 2007)

I am planning to use that reptile carpet stuff when I get my Stimmie. Not the fake grassy stuff, but smoother stuff I saw at the Pet Shop. Looks nice and isn't dangerous in any way (if cleaned regularly, of course).

And if I find that's a hassle to look after there's always newspaper. As long as the enclosures clean and not too clattered, it looks fine to me.


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## cement (May 22, 2007)

yes, I am trialling it at the moment, I don't think it is as good as just newspaper. And i have found that it takes a while to break down in the compost heap after use.
I am also trialling Aspen bedding. Not bad, but expensive and could have some similar probs re. spot cleaning. I think I like to just pull the newspaper out and F10 and put clean paper back in.JMO


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## hornet (May 22, 2007)

Forensick said:


> but paper isnt very pretty



so you would prefer to put your herps health at risk?


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## MMAnne (May 22, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> 3. Possibillity of pieces getting stuck in the snakes mouth, or consumed then causing impaction.
> 
> 8. Mites love it!


 
These are the major things I would be worried about. Thanks for that MrBredi


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## Zanejb (May 22, 2007)

i have an idea!!!! if you wan to make your enclosures look better why not have indoor plants around your herp rooms! itll make the place look better! and even if you dont like the substrate you can still use fkae plants and things to make your snakes haven look better, i dont know why every one gets so worked up about using paper! its the BEST and CHEAPEST substrate out.


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## Zanejb (May 22, 2007)

we should have this stuck in the herp help section as a perminent sticky.


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## THEDEVIL (May 22, 2007)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=44778

here is the link with the staple in it


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## Zanejb (May 22, 2007)

well if that doesnt stear people clear of BC then i dont know what will!


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## sxc_celly (May 22, 2007)

Well put MrB. I dont use newspaper either, i dont know if anyone else actually uses what i use to be honest. I havent heard of anyone using it.


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## Snow1369 (May 22, 2007)

do you have any advice on the alternates people might use?


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## hornet (May 22, 2007)

what do you use?


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## MrBredli (May 22, 2007)

Newspaper, there's nothing better (except maybe butcher's paper  ).


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## hornet (May 22, 2007)

i know you do, sorry was talking to celly lol


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## MrBredli (May 22, 2007)

No problems, i was replying to the post above your's also.


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## sxc_celly (May 22, 2007)

The laminate vinyl 30x30 floor squares you get to cover your floor in. I use those. I get the cork ones (retain heat well). My enclosures are 60x60 so ive got 4 squares which fit neatly together (easy to cut though if needed). They look so natural and you just wipe/clean/spray the area because its flat. No mess, looks great, very cheap.


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## da_donkey (May 22, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> Newspaper, there's nothing better.


 
Yes i agree with with you Mr. B......... and all my snakes up up to date with current issues,but they do have some trouble holding a pen whilst doing the cross-word.

Donk


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## hornet (May 22, 2007)

lol @ donk, i have always used newspaper and always will. i get it for free.


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## Snow1369 (May 22, 2007)

what about the Dr. Harry stuff? i bought it for a trial as it said god for snakes/reptiles on the back? any ideas?


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## NCHERPS (May 22, 2007)

I agree 100% with you MrBredli.
I know there will be many that say, "But I have been using it for years with no problems at all".

Well, I say good for you, it doesn't mean you won't get a problem.
We all like to think that we do our best by our animals by keeping them as safe as possible, well IMO keeping them on BC is just an accident waiting to happen.

I have never heard of anyone having issues with Newspaper or Butchers paper, have you?

I think if you become a little inventive with hides and fake plants, general cage decoration, you will hardly notice the flooring is newspaper.

I know several people , some on APS to that have has serious issues with BC.


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## MrBredli (May 22, 2007)

Snow1369 said:


> what about the Dr. Harry stuff? i bought it for a trial as it said god for snakes/reptiles on the back? any ideas?


 
I think it is better than BC, but most of the problems associated with BC would probably be encountered with this product also.


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## DrNick (May 22, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Yes i agree with with you Mr. B......... and all my snakes up up to date with current issues,but they do have some trouble holding a pen whilst doing the cross-word.
> Donk



Actually, it's a little known fact that snakes prefer Sudoku


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## Twiggz (May 22, 2007)

Not to cause any controversy or anything but...... i'm sure alot of highly reputable breeders have used it with no dramas at all, and some of them with extensive experience. 

I may be wrong but i have a feeling i've seen pics of those at the snake ranch using it.......look at the experience they have had, they obviously dont have any dramas.

You can no doubt spot that i am one of those "i've used it for ages and never had a problem" types. Not that i'm using it up until i have an issue with it (ie such as those issues listed by MrBredli) or anything, and i would not like to risk the health of any of my collection in doing so, but i believe alot of the problems can be prevented through regular checking and stronger hygiene control.


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## Twiggz (May 22, 2007)

Ok maybe the urine concern may be hard to avoid, but daily spot checking would help and IMO those who when replacing the BC and dont disinfect are asking for problems.

It may be some peoples choice and maybe not so for others, but its my opinion that with frequent checking and stronger hygiene controls some of these concerns can be prevented.

JMO


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## Snow1369 (May 22, 2007)

u say about dust, what about dust that comes from bark chips (excess dry dirt), as i use bark chips with my carpets


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## skunk (May 22, 2007)

anyone tried "eco litter" ? looks like BC but its light brown in colour & looks "shiney"


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## moosenoose (May 22, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> 1. It causes problems when sloughing due to the extreme high absorbency of the pellets (sucks all of the moisture out of the air).



That's the key reason I stopped using it, the stuff is like a sponge! Worst sloughs ever!

Also, I've tried the astro-turf thing and the problem I've found is if during the night the snake lets one rip the liquid part of it isn't absorbed into anything because of the nature of the material and thus becomes a toxic humidity cloud...imagine the snake breathing that in??? - I think I'll pass on that stuff as well thanks :lol:


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## buck (May 23, 2007)

I also stopped using it due to sloughing issues. I now use either newspaper or marine-grade carpet from Bunnings.


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## Forensick (May 23, 2007)

hornet said:


> so you would prefer to put your herps health at risk?



oh no, i think litter is ugly... i have marine carpet...
i vacuum it 2x a week, and wash/replace once
-for my little poop machine beardies.... i am snakeless


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## Chimera (May 23, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> 1. It causes problems when sloughing due to the extreme high absorbency of the pellets (sucks all of the moisture out of the air).
> 
> 2. Respiratory problems due to excessive dust, particularly common with snakes/lizards that dig underneath it.
> 
> ...



1 ) A slightly larger surface area on the water bowl will counter the humidity problem. I'll also mist the entire cage floor when replacing the BC to avoid the initial hygroscopic impact of fresh BC. Even my childreni have no problems shedding when it is used this way. Granted, some species with very high humidity requirements should not be kept on BC.

2 ) Are these respiratory problems associated with digging, or are they usually caused by the animals being replaced prior to the dust settling. I don't think the dust in BC is that fine (certainly not as fine as the dust contained in some reptile sand products) and therefore there shouldn't bee too much of a risk in it getting into the respiratory system through digging. I am interested to hear of alternatives that allow animals to dig, particularly for eastern blueys.

3 ) I would agree that if you need to enclosure feed, you should not be using any granular/pellet style substrates as there is always the risk of ingestion. I think you can get around this with monitors by using smallish food items because as soon as they grab it, it barely touches the sides of their mouth let alone the substrate 

4 ) Very good point, you need to be scooping out a large amount of the BC around any deifications. If it has soaked all the way to the cage floor then that area needs to be spot cleaned. I've noticed many people using too thin a layer of BC for spot cleaning to be effective.

5 ) I agree, you do need to look closely at the ENTIRE cage floor if you are not replacing the whole substrate, that's just good practice. I've found that both the white urates and brown faeces are very well contrasted against the grey BC background.

6 ) Again, it comes down to attentive keeping, I haven't kept White's Skinks but my blueys are capable of filling the water bowl with BC as well. Generally they will not fill it to the point of being bone dry in a day which means that a brief daily inspection will prevent any problems.

7 ) This is true, you do need to sive through it briefly when replacing the substrate as there can be contaminates. I don't see this as too difficult a task.

8 )Mites love reptiles, not the substrate  This I really do agree with, if you have confirmed an instance of mites, switch to butchers paper until they are eradicated. BC is not the cause for a snake mite infestation, granted it makes it harder to eradicate, but prevention is better then cure.

Like all substrates BC can be used and misused.  Each substrate has its own set of advantages, disadvantages and requirements to use. In many cases the misuse of a certain substrate can result in SEVERE health issues. Further to this there are substrates that are unsuitable for certain species and therefore there is no blanket solution or silver bullet to the substrate question.


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## MoreliaMatt (May 23, 2007)

how could u argue with a fresh substrate that gets home delivered every week!!! 

the local paper!


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## junglemad (May 23, 2007)

if you think newspaper is ugly, try just using supermodel shots in the top layer. There is something about an 15cm diamond poo on Paris Hilton i find quite attractive,


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## Chimera (May 23, 2007)

junglemad said:


> if you think newspaper is ugly, try just using supermodel shots in the top layer. There is something about an 15cm diamond poo on Paris Hilton i find quite attractive,



Nice :lol:


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## cyclamen (May 23, 2007)

thanks brendan 
i only use newspaper, but one of my snakes has breeders choice, and you have just convinced me to now not use it. cheers
MEL


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## MoreliaMatt (May 23, 2007)

junglemad said:


> if you think newspaper is ugly, try just using supermodel shots in the top layer. There is something about an 15cm diamond poo on Paris Hilton i find quite attractive,



i thought i was the only one to put the good looking females on the top layer! 

Disclaimer: in no way is this post referring to paris hilton being good looking


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## JKretzs613 (May 23, 2007)

*Hello*

Hello,

We use felt from the fabric store for our ball python's substrate. We have several pieces cut, & change it out daily. It is clean & easy. I just wash it out, & it dries & can be reused. Plus, we got green so it looks nice, too. 

Tracie


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## cyclamen (May 23, 2007)

sure i will put skinny models on the top layer, but not for my snakes to look at, so they can s..t all over them. hahaha.


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## jack (May 23, 2007)

i like the sound of the felt idea... but i am gonna stick with newspaper.... i have also been trialing a pile of shredded paper in cages for ground dwelling species (on top of newspaper flooring) since last winter... i give it a thumbs up for adders as it simulates leaf litter...


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## swingonthespiral (May 23, 2007)

I can see your point MrB and yes I'm gonna be one of those 'I've always used it with no problems" people....

In Nth Qld i find it the best way to get the humidity down.... which as we all know can also cause respiratory problems... i have NEVER had a problem with sloughing....

I dont feed in my enclosures.... 

And all of my cages (yes ALL) are cleaned out AND disinfected every sunday (i hate sundays lol) as well as 'spot' cleaning during the week.

I think all substrates have risks to some extent.... for example when i used to use newspaper and my darlings would get it wet, whether it be urine or just water, combined with heat.... i came home on more than one occasion with inky snakes...

I think it comes down to personal choice.... very shortly i'm switching to tiles with sand in between the gaps purely for asthetic and managability purposes....

But thanks MrB for letting people know the risks...

*flame suit on* :|


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## waruikazi (May 23, 2007)

I prefer to use BC for the hygeine issue. I have used newspaper with my larger snakes before and i found it really messy when they defecate. There is nothing to soak up all the fluid and -the result is a big big puddle of smelly snake weewee that they crawl through and get covered in. Then if they get inside their water bowl... where as BC soaks it up and as long as you take out all the wet stuff you have no problem. I have never had sheeding problems with anysnake

I use BC and i find it to be better for adult snakes, i still use paper for hatchies though.


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## Bryony (May 23, 2007)

I had not ever had any probs with it, each to their own.

If you want a more 'natural' look and want to use paper.....get the brown butches paper.


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## Aussie Python Lover (May 23, 2007)

Well I use BC have for sometime I like sprial I dont feed my snakes in thier enclosure. Also another one to say that i havent had any problems with it. Sloughing my snake uses the branches to slither over. But I guess it comes down to the individual person on what they want in the enclosure. I mean snakes or lizards arent going to call out and say "Hey I want something better in here cause this stuff is crap".... But it's also good to know about things that "could" go wrong with BC... Thanks MrB


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## nickamon (May 23, 2007)

Forensick said:


> but paper isnt very pretty


 
And Breeder's Choice is? :?


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## hornet (May 23, 2007)

nickamon said:


> And Breeder's Choice is? :?



some people think so, i dont, but i'm not trying to make my cages look pretty, i just want them looking clean.


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## Aussie Python Lover (May 23, 2007)

Well I personally clean my enclosures out 1-2 times a week and spray the stuff down with f10 but each to thier own....


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## simesy75 (May 23, 2007)

theres good points either way looks like everyone has there own idea. I use fake grass because it looks good and after the original cost (mine was $32 a metre) there is no more. I got enough to cut out 4 pieces so i have spares. Each week or after a see a mess i just remove the grass disinfect the cage and put another one in. Then I take the old one out side hit it with the hose disinfect and its ready to use it again.

Thats my bit hope it helps someone but remember to use what you feel is good. If it works why change it. This agruement is the same as the age old Ford and Holden battle. everyone has there own reasons for liking one or the other. But you use what you like.


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## little guy (May 23, 2007)

I agree with mr B.
I have used news paper for many years. I have never had mites or any other problems.
I cant say the same for a lot of people who use breeders choice.
I would rather have an enclosure that looks a bit what ever than a pretty one with mites or what ever in it..
Paper is cheap if not free and needs to be recycled lets help the environment as we care for its creatures.No i am not a raving greenie just a reptile lover.
News paper butchers paper has been used for many many years for reptiles IMO it has proven it self as the best. What do i see in peoples enclosures that are fighting to get rid of mites [ paper.] Then they go back to breeders choice and get it all over again.
Why because they dont like the look or it is easy to clean just like Mr B said spot cleaning is not good.
Yes paper is hands on and not as attractive as breeders choice .
My choice is paper thanks Mr B alot of the new guys will now have the choice to choose.


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## Chimera (May 23, 2007)

Like I said earlier, mites love reptiles, not breeders choice. Good husbandry is good husbandry and if done properly there are a number of substrates that will work well.

If you are doing well on paper, then why change. It's the same with breeders choice. This argument will continue so long as people are keeping reptiles, so far I think the best info available on substrate options comes from the Barkers Book Pythons of the World Vol 2. Even though it focuses on ball pythons it has some good info on the general keeping of pythons, including substrate. It basically says the same think, many will work if used properly.


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## minusone (May 23, 2007)

i'm using some stuff I got at Pets on broadway (and also saw it at the reptile show a few weeks back) that looks like sawdust, but is bigger (almost straw like)

i don't know the name of it though.


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## cheyno (May 23, 2007)

On my darwin hatchie I'm using paper towels (home brand viva) in his click clack. It works great, absorobs any liquid that is left behind or spilt out of the water bowl, no ink in it and its cheap (about 80cents/roll).
In his new enclosure I've been setting up (thanks Darryn ) I have put in breeders choice ontop of a layer of newspaper, I was thinking about using paper towel, but I thought I'd give BC a go, it looks a bit better than paper, and I am now aware of the 'problems' with it (thanks MrB). But I think if I am thorough with the cleaning etc, it shouldn't be a problem. If I don't like it I'll go back to paper towels, as I like the fact that they are more absorbent than newspaper, and it doesn't have any ink in it.

I'm only new to this and your points are very helpful MrB, they have been taken onboard, and if I don't like BC, I'll be straight back on paper.


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## salebrosus (May 23, 2007)

Forensick said:


> but paper isnt very pretty



Neither is a sick snake.

Simone.


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## cyclamen (May 23, 2007)

hmm i was all anti breeders choice this morning after reading brendans little report. only one of my snakes has it in her enclosure, and i was trialing it to see how it went to see if i would use it for all my other snakes. ...
she had her first slough in it today. and the skin came off better than if ever has done. i am also one of those clean freaks and all my enclosures get fully cleaned every saturday arvo. still not sure if i will continue using it or not...


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## Zanejb (May 23, 2007)

OK here is my 2 cents.
i beleive ALL substrates (including paper) have bad qualities, the risks involved with aniamls having harm done to them is low when it comes to substrate but there are risks with all substrates so if there are people on here using other substrates then paper then good on you for trying something different but for those who like paper good for you guys too. we all have different reasons for why we use our different substrates. i use a particular substrate atm that im trying out to see how it goes and so far ive had 100% perfections but im NOT giving out details as im in no mood to put up with the lectures people get over not using paper. but each to there own.


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## Ramsayi (May 23, 2007)

Zanejb said:


> OK here is my 2 cents.
> i beleive ALL substrates (including paper) have bad qualities, the risks involved with aniamls having harm done to them is low when it comes to substrate but there are risks with all substrates so if there are people on here using other substrates then paper then good on you for trying something different but for those who like paper good for you guys too. we all have different reasons for why we use our different substrates. i use a particular substrate atm that im trying out to see how it goes and so far ive had 100% perfections but im NOT giving out details as im in no mood to put up with the lectures people get over not using paper. but each to there own.



Im wondering what risks are involved in using paper? Another reason why paper is perhaps the best of all is that whenever it gets soiled it FORCES you to give the entire cage floor a clean.


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## wood_nymph (May 23, 2007)

where can you buy reptile carpet from? i haven't found any yet


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## GSXR_Boy (May 23, 2007)

Another reason to stop using bc is the little suprises you get in the packet. (not like kinder suprise  ) 
We have found little pieces of paperclip or staples in the packet, sort of squashed into the side of the pellet.


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## slip_phreak (May 23, 2007)

I have been using BC for a while without a problem with shedding or mites. i did originaly use Newspaper but its not absorbent enough and all you get left with is a big puddle of defecation and urate that snakies has been slithering through all day bcoz they decided to do it while you were at work. 
Im contemplating a move back to newspaper after i finish this 35L bag of BC. Should be fun


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## bluetongue beno (May 23, 2007)

i just use saw dust


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## hornet (May 23, 2007)

bluetongue beno said:


> i just use saw dust



using sawdust is asking for trouble, its like keeping your herp on brown flour


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## bluetongue beno (May 23, 2007)

not really saw dust its like its the stuff they use for mice u kno that stuff it just looks like saw dust


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## Storm91 (May 23, 2007)

what like after planing the fine short stuff?


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## hornet (May 23, 2007)

ahh, wood shavings, lol i knew what you ment but people always call it saw dust.


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## Storm91 (May 23, 2007)

i have pellet like things in my jungle encloser but i want an easy thing to replace on a regula basses dont aske me what kind pellet things i dont know it came with the encloser wich i got a good price on $550 with my jungle snake


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## Phase (May 23, 2007)

I particularly agree about the idea that Breeders Choice encourages people to spot clean


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## Bug collector (May 23, 2007)

my prob with using newspaper is that whatever uses it tends to burrow under it, either sitting directly on the heat mat, or going under their water bowl, sometimes spilling it and soaking everything. also it makes it hard to remove them when u need to search thru each layer of paper haha


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## Bug collector (May 23, 2007)

O YEH and with newspaper if they crap like on the edge then it sorta scums down the wall into the edge thing............................


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## Bug collector (May 23, 2007)

AND! and the newspaper always has the weird dip/rise in the middle where it folds which is IMPOSSIBLE to pin down unless ya use lotsa rocks or whatever ....
 ok im done


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## Reptile City (May 23, 2007)

*Breeders Choice*

Hi 
I use Back 2 Nature :shock: its similar to breeders choice & just as cheap.
Its so similar but its not tubed but squashed & it will not crumble up like breeders choice does.
I also have large water bowls so they shed properly.
I have seen baby scorpions :shock: in breeders choice before & found it dusty, but have not had any problems with Back 2 Nature.

Jason


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## paul4 (May 23, 2007)

Chimera said:


> 1 ) A slightly larger surface area on the water bowl will counter the humidity problem. I'll also mist the entire cage floor when replacing the BC to avoid the initial hygroscopic impact of fresh BC. Even my childreni have no problems shedding when it is used this way. Granted, some species with very high humidity requirements should not be kept on BC.
> 
> 2 ) Are these respiratory problems associated with digging, or are they usually caused by the animals being replaced prior to the dust settling. I don't think the dust in BC is that fine (certainly not as fine as the dust contained in some reptile sand products) and therefore there shouldn't bee too much of a risk in it getting into the respiratory system through digging. I am interested to hear of alternatives that allow animals to dig, particularly for eastern blueys.
> 
> ...



I agree that the breeders choice is bloody great as long as you do your daily inspections and clean while the the soiled material is fresh.
As for newspaper, i was at the vets one day with an unrelated matter and while i was there a guy brought his BHP in as there was a very large lump in it. After an examination and questioning from the vet to the owner they could not work out what the problem was so an exray was done and found that the lump was a couple of sheets of newspaper that had been consumed and caused impaction so what do you do??
I you keep reptiles you are going to come across all sorts of problems at one time or another.
Paul


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## Just_Joshin (May 23, 2007)

paul4 said:


> I agree that the breeders choice is bloody great as long as you do your daily inspections and clean while the the soiled material is fresh.
> As for newspaper, i was at the vets one day with an unrelated matter and while i was there a guy brought his BHP in as there was a very large lump in it. After an examination and questioning from the vet to the owner they could not work out what the problem was so an exray was done and found that the lump was a couple of sheets of newspaper that had been consumed and caused impaction so what do you do??
> I you keep reptiles you are going to come across all sorts of problems at one time or another.
> Paul


haha this post reminded me of the woma page off the snake ranch website........Qute funny.

Also if you look at the bottom pic you can see the use a breeders choice type material for their enclosures (in reference to the other hot topic)



> This beautiful snake is small enough to be manageable by anyone - generally to only 1.5m, very easy to handle, and reluctant to bite. BUT…. when it comes to eating, so far as a hungry woma is concerned, _everything_ is on the menu, and this can include their keeper's hand, arm or even neck. Once a woma latches onto its secondary victim - and that could mean you - or a water bowl or hide box, a great deal of patience and time may required before its bite is released. The photos at bottom of this page represent an episode where: confused woma bites snake bag; woma tries to eat snake bag; keeper cannot dislodge woma which begins to swallow snake bag; keeper has better things to do than to baby-sit woma for the duration - so uses ingenuity and tapes snake bag to something that cannot be swallowed - a fire extinguisher; eventually, woma gives the game up.


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## foxysnake (May 23, 2007)

Just a question about the square pieces of vinyl, are the snakes able to move freely on them? (I can't remember who posted that after reading through all these pages! Sorry!), I find when I hndle my snakes and let them explore on the tiles or vinyl they have trouble getting grip and moving properly. Or do you just have a heap of 'cage furniture' in an upright cage for your snakes to climb on?
Cheers,
Dee.


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## peas_and_corn (Aug 21, 2007)

After reading this thread so far, there's a couple of points I would like to make. First, I think that everyone here, by the very fact that they are members of a reptile forum, are all worried for the welfare of their snakes/lizards etc and that accusations that anyone who uses a certain substrate do not care about the reptile's health should be avoided as it adds little to the debate and merely pulls it down.

Below is a link to a site with some of the debates about various substrates-
http://www.reptilesdownunder.com/reptile/enclosure/substrate.php


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## WombleHerp (Aug 21, 2007)

i use breeders choice, however i am moving to those kitchen paper towels. cheap, easy to remove/clean and looks better then newspaper. i have found wrong things in my breeders choice, and im going to change it asap. and yes i will admit, it did lead me to 'spot clean' and i will no longer do this after reading this post. and i posted this vefore, but you can use newspaper, or papertowels, but jazz it up with some leaf litter  which is also an enrichment for the snake, from all the animals that have run across it. (you disinfect the leaf litter first of course! ) thats my say!
regards,

Nat


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## Wild~Touch (Aug 21, 2007)

Hey Foresnick

Life isn't very pretty (if you think about it)


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## christo (Aug 21, 2007)

Low humidity is no problem with arid ecosystem animals (eg shingle-backs, Murray-Darlings). BC can be handy with really messy crappers like shingle-backs. Having said that, I use paper for my snakes.


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## fuegan13 (Aug 21, 2007)

i work at a commercial flooring company, so i borrowed some marine carpet from work. both my spotted and jungle pythons are fine on it. it looks better than newspaper and its very easy to clean, i just have a few pieces cut to the correct tank size and you can swap a dirty one for a clean one and so have the carpet going in cycles if that makes sense. once its out of the cage you can clean it to your hearts content and leave it to dry before the other piece gets dirty.


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## Dan123 (Aug 21, 2007)

....aspen bedding yey


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## EmmaMary (Aug 21, 2007)

I like paper towel... easy to see stuff on it, easy to find him under it (cos he likes to hide inbetween the layers), i'm not worried bout him eating it, it looks clean and neat, easy to fold up the sides so if he does crap in the corners/sides it's easy to clean, and it's easy to rip out and replace. I dont see why you would use BC anyway, if small rocks and kitty littler are no-no's becasue of their size, wouldn't BC be too? Makes sense to me. I used newspaper in the begining, until Eddie got some black on his belly from the ink.


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## Lozza (Aug 21, 2007)

Bug collector said:


> my prob with using newspaper is that whatever uses it tends to burrow under it, either sitting directly on the heat mat, or going under their water bowl, sometimes spilling it and soaking everything. also it makes it hard to remove them when u need to search thru each layer of paper haha


 
I shred paper to put on top of the newspaper for animals that like to burrow like my BHPs. Also I find using the Sydney Morning Herald best as its bigger - can go up the side a bit and not as many joins for them to get under 

I think BC is ugly, effort and $$.

Nameless: Newsprint is now nontoxic so the ink wont harm them if it does get on them


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## Mrs I (Aug 21, 2007)

Ive just gone and bought tiles for my Dragons, really nice non slip ceramic ones.

Mrs I

xxx


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## natrix (Aug 21, 2007)

I was thinking of using breeders choice when my Bredli goes from a click-clack to a bigger viv
in a couple of months but think I'll now stick to paper towells . Thanks for the advice.


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## Kimbully (Aug 21, 2007)

I agree with MrBredli's reasons for not using BC and I have newspaper in with my new MD. But my stumpies have been on BC for 9 years and I have never had a problem. If they get it in their mouths while eating, they manouvre it out with their tongue. I change it completly about once a month and spot clean it everyday as needed. They love the ability to hide in it. So I guess what I am saying is I agree with the reasons for snakes, but in my own experience I like BC for stumpies. 

Kim


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## RobynM (Aug 21, 2007)

*Newspaper is fine*

I have always used newspaper, and the base of the enclosure is lined with lino so it's easy to disinfect. A bit of decoration draws the attention away from the paper.


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## Chimera (Aug 22, 2007)

*Eucamulch*

Alright, time to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons, I was reading a post on VenomDoc written by Bryan Fry where he states that he uses Eucamulch. 

Essentially this is eucalyptus leaves with all oils and tannins removed by steam removing the odour and essentially sterilising the leaves. Its got my interest


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## fuegan13 (Aug 22, 2007)

Chimera said:


> Alright, time to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons, I was reading a post on VenomDoc written by Bryan Fry where he states that he uses Eucamulch.
> 
> Essentially this is eucalyptus leaves with all oils and tannins removed by steam removing the odour and essentially sterilising the leaves. Its got my interest


 

how does this look? and is it ok to use ? 
i cant think of any reason why it wouldnt be off the top of my head, but does anyone know any negatives about this "Eucamulch"??


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## indicus (Aug 22, 2007)

I'm sure each has their own views regarding products such as BC.
I personally think it's rubbish.
Newspaper is readily available, cheap, and disposable.
When a snake defecates you 'CLEAN' your cage.... how simple and hygienic.
Spot cleaning while using BC...is a cop out to keeping your herp cage clean IMO; as you get a build up of urine etc within your substraight...regardless how good a job you think you do keeping it clean.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Aug 22, 2007)

http://www.eucamulch.com.au/index.htm

heres that Eucamulch site for anyone interested.

I think i'll just stick to newspaper for now though


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## hornet (Aug 22, 2007)

indicus said:


> I'm sure each has their own views regarding products such as BC.
> I personally think it's rubbish.
> Newspaper is readily available, cheap, and disposable.
> When a snake defecates you 'CLEAN' your cage.... how simple and hygienic.
> Spot cleaning while using BC...is a cop out to keeping your herp cage clean IMO; as you get a build up of urine etc within your substraight...regardless how good a job you think you do keeping it clean.



exactly how i feel. With BC the urine will soak all around the area of defication, chances are you will not clean properly without a complete substrate change every time the snake deficates


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## blood_raven (Aug 22, 2007)

Hi, my name is Harleigh. I'm new here and I had one question about potential substrate. Can you use garden soil? Like dirt? Thanks!


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## mertle (Aug 22, 2007)

i wouldn't! but that's me, others may give you advice on it.


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## waruikazi (Aug 22, 2007)

blood_raven said:


> Hi, my name is Harleigh. I'm new here and I had one question about potential substrate. Can you use garden soil? Like dirt? Thanks!



It would be unwise without sterilising it because of all sorts of bacteria that exist in the soil.


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## blood_raven (Aug 22, 2007)

I meant new soil, fresh from a garden store. Organic or something.


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## hornet (Aug 22, 2007)

nope, steer clear of soil, perfect for harbouring pests


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## blood_raven (Aug 22, 2007)

Okay, I gets it lol. I want something that looks natural, but not nessesarily wood based..


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## Squamata (Aug 22, 2007)

Butchers paper is excellent, i use it on all my pythons, rather than newspaper.
I have found some of my stimmies react to the newspaper, where they dont to butcher paper. Take Mr Bs advice seriously guys, breeders choice sucks big time.


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## hornet (Aug 22, 2007)

marine carpet is the best for a natural looking enclosure


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## Squamata (Aug 22, 2007)

Pop into your local fish and chip shop and ask them ever so nicely if they can help you, they might give you the name of the supplier.


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## Mrs I (Aug 22, 2007)

I just bought tiles and for $25 I did the bottom of 3 enclosures.

They even cut the ones i needed for $1.00 per cut.

They are grey but non slip ones for the Bearded Dragons or they would slip around everywhere, 

lets see how they go.

I will keep trying things until I find something they like and Ilike.

Mrs I

xxxx


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## PilbaraPythons (Aug 22, 2007)

Why don’t you people just use the paper that is specially made for reptile cages?
You can get the one with the sand look print, the gravel print, forest leaf litter print, and grass print. It comes in a large roll and you just cut of what ever length you use.
It looks fantastic.


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## hornet (Aug 22, 2007)

or newspaper lol. I use it for snails, beardies, pink tongues and my pythons


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## reece89 (Aug 22, 2007)

mrs I can u post pics of ur tiles please? and pilbara pythons where can u get this paper you speak off?

cheers reece =D


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## oniddog (Aug 22, 2007)

thanx mrbredli
im taking that crap out write now !
thort id give it a go , thats all i needed to change my mind.
thanx Again mate
O'Dog


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## RobynM (Aug 23, 2007)

You can get the newspaper without the print on a roll from the newspaper printers. They sell the ends of rolls off really cheap, you just cut it to size


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## christo (Aug 24, 2007)

All newspaper print should now be non-toxic, at least that's what I have been led to believe. Am I wrong?


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## Bendarwin (Aug 24, 2007)

I used to use the breeders choice but found a twisted bit of metal (a clip or something) in the mix, it was only small , but only the best for my serpents!!!!! I use newspaper now, the price is right and I can just pull sheets out as they ruin them, you get used to the scruffy newspaper look after a while, fresh newspaper looks great to me these days.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Aug 24, 2007)

thanks mrbredl,im chaging my bc over to buchers paper next week,thanks for ur advice!


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## sandfire (Aug 24, 2007)

I use this type of breeders choice which is peletised wood chips which i picked up from my local pet store the guy told me that its better to use because it dosnt swell when it absorbs, it just crumbles and turns into a powder and i havent had any problems with it.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Aug 25, 2007)

hornet said:


> marine carpet is the best for a natural looking enclosure


how should u be cleanning marine carpet?? how hw many time?


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## Dice (Aug 25, 2007)

I use Maxs Pet Litter it is a natureal looking color and is made from natural plant matter and I have had no problems with it just use a kitty litter scoop to take out soiled material and replace every 2 weeks could probably leave longer but I dont,Craig


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## Peregrinus (Aug 25, 2007)

I agree with the post on doing whatever is working for you. BC (or any variations) works great for me, every substrate regardless of type wil give you trouble if its not looked after.


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## stencorp69 (Aug 26, 2007)

3 years using BC still going strong - no sick or ill pythons. 

BC locks up moisture to a small area, news paper doesn't and unless you are around to change the newspaper at the moment your animal craps chances are the crap will be all over the cage. Newspaper is cheap not more hygienic. If you use BC properly it will provide a cleaner enclosure than newspaper, it provides a better medium for locomotion and IMO looks better.

In the end regular cleaning is required no matter what substrate is used, find one that works for you and your collection. I only keep pythons and BC works well for me.


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## Chimera (Aug 26, 2007)

Damn, is this thread still going. Basically there are a large number of substrates that can be effective if used correctly, pretty much all of these can be downright dangerous if used incorrectly.

There seems to be a large number of people on this thread of late stating "I'm going to switch over to paper now...". I sincerely hope all of you have put sufficient thought as to how you are supposed to manage paper as a substrate. The methods you employ should be researched and a complete understanding obtained before implementing them in your collection. These methods can then be perfected over time however swaying with the wind and making vast changes according to what is currently being stated can be dangerous.


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## krusty (Aug 26, 2007)

News Paper for pm.........lol,the only thing to use.


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## wredwilly (Aug 27, 2007)

*snakes on a stain !*

indicus has a point, and some newspaper articles are worth peeing on too.

articles about paris hilton for example, can't get cheaper than that ;-)


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## Colin (Aug 27, 2007)

indicus said:


> I'm sure each has their own views regarding products such as BC.
> I personally think it's rubbish.
> Newspaper is readily available, cheap, and disposable.
> When a snake defecates you 'CLEAN' your cage.... how simple and hygienic.
> Spot cleaning while using BC...is a cop out to keeping your herp cage clean IMO; as you get a build up of urine etc within your substraight...regardless how good a job you think you do keeping it clean.




well said Tremain  I only use newspaper for enclosures and larger tubs myself. And when it gets dirty or wet I clean it out the very first chance I get, sometimes twice a day for the same enclosure


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## GEARJAMMER (Aug 27, 2007)

Thanks for the Thread, I'm OFF it:shock:


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## Charlie V (Sep 2, 2007)

Phase said:


> I particularly agree about the idea that Breeders Choice encourages people to spot clean



But surely thats a problem with lazy people, and not with Breeders Choice?


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