# blue tounge lizard breeding



## Rickdejong (Dec 15, 2008)

is it possible for me too breed different species of blue tongue, IE blotched with eastern??
any help appreciated, cheers


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## mebebrian (Dec 16, 2008)

posible, but not advised. Better off getting two from the same locale


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## Reptilian66 (Dec 16, 2008)

No its not possible to breed different Sub-Species of Blue-Tongue Lizard's, in fact its illegal to do this if you don't believe me contact your local Wildlife Authority in your state and ask them if you can or cannot do it, l bet they will tell you its illegal to cross breed Sub-Species of any Reptile's.


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## Rickdejong (Dec 16, 2008)

heh, odd that, i also thought that it wouldnt be possible all together...


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## Chuckface01 (Dec 24, 2008)

It is possible, but like mentioned.. illegal.

When I say possible... it can happen, but very rarely.


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## lemonz (Dec 24, 2008)

about breeding and stuff, i was in the shower, and i was rudly disturbed by my little brother say "harley, harley...the lizards are doing it!" so i came out, he seperated them, and then got white foamy crap on his hands, im assuming its sperm, but i dnt know, and there only a year old. any help is appreciated.


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## No-two (Dec 24, 2008)

Pretty sure subspecies will breed easily if kept together. I wouldn't do it but a mate had his two "female" blueys in his outside pit witha few other things and they got baby eastern x blotchies.


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## lemonz (Dec 24, 2008)

i dnt see it being bad, i mean you cross breed snakes. and how do we get different breeds? bye breeding others


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## Kirby (Dec 24, 2008)

it is possible, it also regularly happens, especially over seas. 

it isn't recommended on an over-all ethical level, hence why its illegal.


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## abbott75 (Dec 24, 2008)

lemonz said:


> and how do we get different breeds? bye breeding others



I should warn you, I've been known to murder people who don't understand the difference between a breed and a species... with my bear hands! :evil:


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## Mavrick (Dec 24, 2008)

Despite also having the urge to murder, let it be known deadrabbit, that our 'breeds' are actually species and sub species each independent of eachother. Occasional interbreeding happens between certain species that live in the same areas while in the wild, but it is illegal in captivity. Our snakes looking different have nothing to do with us breeding them with eachother and you're likely to get a hell of a flaming for promoting it, wanting it and/or not knowing the difference.


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## lemonz (Dec 24, 2008)

Mavrick said:


> Despite also having the urge to murder, let it be known deadrabbit, that our 'breeds' are actually species and sub species each independent of eachother. Occasional interbreeding happens between certain species that live in the same areas while in the wild, but it is illegal in captivity. Our snakes looking different have nothing to do with us breeding them with eachother and you're likely to get a hell of a flaming for promoting it, wanting it and/or not knowing the difference.


 yeh thats what i meant lol, no need for murder. i was just saying, that we do it with snakes, i didnt get the whole species and breeds things. sorry


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## Mavrick (Dec 24, 2008)

That's the thing, we don't to 'it' with snakes, it occurs naturally, we have nothing to do with it!


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## lemonz (Dec 24, 2008)

ok...i dnt no that much bout snakes..lol sorry


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## bump73 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mavrick said:


> That's the thing, we don't to 'it' with snakes, it occurs naturally, we have nothing to do with it!


 
Also known to occur naturally with Blueys as well.. Mainly Eastern x shingle back and Eastern x Blotched

Ben


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## abbott75 (Dec 25, 2008)

lemonz said:


> yeh thats what i meant lol, no need for murder. i was just saying, that we do it with snakes, i didnt get the whole species and breeds things. sorry





lemonz said:


> ok...i dnt no that much bout snakes..lol sorry



Honestly, I suggest you start doing some research. Before you even _consider_ breeding, you *must* understand species, breeds, hybrids, and other terms.


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## notechistiger (Dec 25, 2008)

Bump73 said:


> Eastern x shingle back



I have _never_ seen nor heard about an Eastern blue tongue cross shingleback. I was under the impression that shinglebacks were fussy breeders and only breed with unrelated individuals of their own species?


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## Armand (Dec 25, 2008)

abbott75 said:


> I should warn you, I've been known to murder people who don't understand the difference between a breed and a species... with my bear hands! :evil:



hahahaha funny!


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## scorps (Dec 25, 2008)

If you breed them the best way to raise the hatchlings would be to put them in the freezer


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## channi (Dec 25, 2008)

scorps said:


> If you breed them the best way to raise the hatchlings would be to put them in the freezer


 Would live birth babies be called hatchies? Not moking you just not sure what to call them.


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## bump73 (Dec 25, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> I have _never_ seen nor heard about an Eastern blue tongue cross shingleback. I was under the impression that shinglebacks were fussy breeders and only breed with unrelated individuals of their own species?


 
There's a pic of one on the bluetongueskinks.net page in the care sheet section ( i think). It actually looks quite nice and i believe it was found in the wild. I'm not condoning cross breeding just saying it does occur in the wild...

Ben


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## Reptilian66 (Dec 25, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> I have _never_ seen nor heard about an Eastern blue tongue cross shingleback. I was under the impression that shinglebacks were fussy breeders and only breed with unrelated individuals of their own species?


 
l have seen 2 adult Cross Shingleback and Eastern Blue-Tongue Lizard's on display at the Adelaide Museum between 1993 - 1996, they were originally collected from the wild in the early 1990's.

Here is 2 photo's to prove it, but l warn everyone out there, its illegal to cross breed (Shingleback's-with any specie's of Blue-Tongue Lizard's.

Don't even think about doing it with any kept in captivity, and denying it was done on purpose, just to create a new hybrid so you can get alot more money.


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## notechistiger (Dec 25, 2008)

Thanks bump73 and Reptilian66. That's very interesting.


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## horsesrule (Dec 25, 2008)

Reptilian66 said:


> No its not possible to breed different Sub-Species of Blue-Tongue Lizard's, in fact its illegal to do this if you don't believe me contact your local Wildlife Authority in your state and ask them if you can or cannot do it, l bet they will tell you its illegal to cross breed Sub-Species of any Reptile's.


 

Its not illegal to cross blue tongue species and i have no idea where on earth you came up with that idea.

I have seen many people do it and if they want to fair enough no dount these animals would cross breed in the wild where populations border each other.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

Also further to this 

If it is illegal, Please show the forum and me what law and what legislation this falls under?

For example Crimes Act??

There is no such law that i am aware off. 

If you can provide proof of the law and the relevant statutory act and the penalty for breaking the law im happy to accept i was wrong if you cant i maintain i am right.


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## bump73 (Dec 26, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Also further to this
> 
> If it is illegal, Please show the forum and me what law and what legislation this falls under?
> 
> ...


 
Posted by DEC in another thread....

QLD 92 Restriction on breeding etc. hybrids of protected animals
*(1) A person must not—*
*(a) knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected*
*animal; *or
(b) abandon a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal in
the wild;
other than under a regulation or exemption under a regulation.
Maximum penalty—165 penalty units.
(2) A person must not release a hybrid or mutation of a protected
animal into the wild other than under a conservation plan for
the protected animal.
Maximum penalty—165 penalty units or 1 year’s

I believe QLD is the only state that actually has legislation that would cover this. In VIC you can do it if they are known to hybridise in the wild and there is nothing in NSW to stop you:? Not sure on other states though....

Ben


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

*Thanks for that post thats interesing, as i suspected i was correct about Victoria. *

*Also it could be argued if you housed your blue tongues together lets say for example in an outdoor pit and they bred naturally without you intentionally or knowingly doing this then that would not be illegal.*

*The key is the wording of any law, in QLD as you pointed out it is illegal to "knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal" *

*As long as you dont intentionally cross breed you dont commint a crime as there was no intent.*

*Many people house different blue tongue species together so i would suspect unless someone in Qld was intentionally breeding them with the intent to sell or advertising for example eastern cross central they would struggle to make a case to prosecute.*


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## Reptilian66 (Dec 26, 2008)

As stated under the Wildlife Regulations 2002 ACT, which is manage by the Department of Sustainability and Environment here in Victoria.

Inter-Breeding of wildlife.
(1) A person must not permit different taxa of wildlife to inter-breed unless those taxa of wildlife are known 
to inter-breed in the wild.
Penalty: 20 penalty units.
(2) A person must not sell or dispose of cross-breeds of wildlife unless those cross-breeds are known to 
accur in the wild.
Penalty: 20 penalty units.
(3) Nothing in this regulation applies to a person who inter-breed the taxa of wildlife listed in Parts A and C 
of Schedule 6 with other taxa of wildlife listed in Parts A and C of Schedule 6 and who sells or 
disposes of the resultant cross-breeds.
Schedule 6 Part A- Pheasants-all taxa.
Partridge-all taxa.
European/Japanese Quail.
Californian Quail.
Schedule 6 Part C- Fellow Deer.
Chital.
Hog Deer.
Rusa Deer,
Red Deer,
Wapiti Deer.
Sambar.

Here you can now see that its illegal to cross-breed Reptile's in captivity in Victoria, if you want to find out more information on cross-breeding of Reptile's in Victoria, you should contact the Permit Section during business hours on 136186, and ask to speak to (Mr Ron Waters) who is the senior wildlife officer, that can answer any questions you may have.

Cheers,

Les.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

"(1) A person must not permit different taxa of wildlife to inter-breed unless those taxa of wildlife are known 
to inter-breed in the wild."


Blue tongues inter breed in the wild therefor it is LEGAL.


Thank you though for the info i had no idea of that law until i seen it and looked it up myself.

I accept you are correct that inter breeding some species of animals in Victoria is illegal. However as stated if it is known to happen in the wild it is legal. So blue tongues are exempt.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

Out of curiosity 20 penalty units is what ? The act doesnt specify.

So is that a fine and if so how much ? What do the 20 units actually convert into as far as penaltys?


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## Reptilian66 (Dec 26, 2008)

Horsesrule,
there is only 3 specie's of Blue-Tongue's found in Victoria, and they a the Eastern Blue-Tongue-Western Blue-Tongue-Blotched Blue-Tongue, you say they inter-breed in the wild together, have you got any proof or evidence of these 3 Specie's of Blue-Tongue mating together in the wild, and producing offspring, can you provide a photo of any found in the wild, name of location-time and date and what specie's were found.
Unless you can provide proof you don't know what your talking about, and don't give false information to newcomers to the herp scene, by saying its legal to cross-breed Reptile's in captivity.

lf you want to know what do the 20 units convert into as far as penalty's go, contact the DSE on 136186, they will let you know how much it is as a fine.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

Reptilian66 said:


> Horsesrule,
> there is only 3 specie's of Blue-Tongue's found in Victoria, and they a the Eastern Blue-Tongue-Western Blue-Tongue-Blotched Blue-Tongue, you say they inter-breed in the wild together, have you got any proof or evidence of these 3 Specie's of Blue-Tongue mating together in the wild, and producing offspring, can you provide a photo of any found in the wild, name of location-time and date and what specie's were found.
> Unless you can provide proof you don't know what your talking about, and don't give false information to newcomers to the herp scene, by saying its legal to cross-breed Reptile's in captivity.
> 
> lf you want to know what do the 20 units convert into as far as penalty's go, contact the DSE on 136186, they will let you know how much it is as a fine.


 

Blotch blue tongues and eastern blue tongues commonly inter breed where areas overlap.

I myself have had them breed together whilst having them housed in a pit outside.

I know someone at the moment who has a female blotch blue tongue in with about 6 eastern blue tongues and she is pregnant.

So it happens easily and commonly.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

Also you yourself posted photos of a shingleback/ stumpy cross blue tongue which occured naturally in the wild.

The law you posted states:

"(1) A person must not permit different taxa of wildlife to inter-breed *unless those taxa of wildlife are known to inter-breed in the wild."*


Therefor if someone was to interbreed for example a shingleback with a blue tongue it would be legal as they are known to interbreed in the wild.

Its pretty clear in the wording.


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## Rocket (Dec 26, 2008)

Just to clarify for those in SA, it is illegal in SA to cross breed, interbreed and simply breed to create unnatural species/ subspecies. 

It is as simple as that and I believe that people that happily try to bring something that is unnatural and unwanted into captivity through purposeful breeding of compatible yet different species genetics is downright pathetic. People need to preserve the integrity and genetics of the available bloodlines in captivity in Australia. Of course, cross breeding of specific bloodlines for the purpose of creating new morphs and patterns is acceptible but it should not be taken to ridiculous extremes by breeding completely different species. Just because something is of the same genus doesn't give anybody the right to readily cross breed them just for fun or financial gain, its just desperate and pathetic.

Therefore, I am with Reptilian66 on this issue.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

Rocket said:


> Just to clarify for those in SA, it is illegal in SA to cross breed, interbreed and simply breed to create unnatural species/ subspecies.
> 
> It is as simple as that and I believe that people that happily try to bring something that is unnatural and unwanted into captivity through purposeful breeding of compatible yet different species genetics is downright pathetic. People need to preserve the integrity and genetics of the available bloodlines in captivity in Australia. Of course, cross breeding of specific bloodlines for the purpose of creating new morphs and patterns is acceptible but it should not be taken to ridiculous extremes by breeding completely different species. Just because something is of the same genus doesn't give anybody the right to readily cross breed them just for fun or financial gain, its just desperate and pathetic.
> 
> Therefore, I am with Reptilian66 on this issue.


 

Im with you both also.

I dont agree in crossing but some species it happens naturally a good example of this is eastern and blotch blue tongues.

I had it happen to me over 10 years ago but i never planned it.

It is a lot more common in blue tongues that many realise.


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## Reptilian66 (Dec 26, 2008)

The 2 photo's l posted on this thread showing the hybrid Shingleback-Eastern Blue-Tongue Lizard's, was only a one of discovery from the wild, know more have been found since they were discover in the earlly 90's.

Keeping them all caged together in captivity they don't have any choice but to inter-breed, where in the wild they can get away from each other if they want to.

The way l see things heading in the herp scene, we will oneday have all these hybrids in captivity, that we don't know what they are or where they come from natually in the wild, and will not be pure unrelated.

Because of keepers like yourself who don't care one bit in keeping them all the same Sub-Specie's, and just think of the Money you can get by creating a new colour phase or hybrids.

Let me tell you one thing mate l won't be purchasing any Reptile's from you or anyone that does cross-breeding with Reptile's, l'm lucky that l can get what l want from Zoo's or on permit from the wild, so l know they a pure and unrelated and where they come from natually in the wild.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

Reptilian66 said:


> The 2 photo's l posted on this thread showing the hybrid Shingleback-Eastern Blue-Tongue Lizard's, was only a one of discovery from the wild, know more have been found since they were discover in the earlly 90's.
> 
> Keeping them all caged together in captivity they don't have any choice but to inter-breed, where in the wild they can get away from each other if they want to.
> 
> ...


 

I dont breed to sell so i make no money my friend, so you are wrong there if i breed i keep them myself. I dont care about new color phases or hybrids either.

Eastern blue tongues and blotched blue tongues can be found in the same areas as they overlap keeping them together is common practice if they interbreed its no big deal in my book. They dont look much different some have spots some stripes some a little of each.

I dont support cross breeding but eastern and blotch blue tongues breeding together i have no problem with there both common and neither are on licence.


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## Reptilian66 (Dec 26, 2008)

l'm with you Rocket in regards to cross-breeding, where those that do it don't either care or give a dam, about the future of our Reptile's here in Australia, and just do it to create a new color morphs and for financial gain.

Horsesrule just because Eastern and Blotched Blue-Tongue's come into contact with each other in the wild, that dose not mean they will inter-breed in anyway,where people like yourself who lock them up in the same enclosure, instead of keeping them seperate from each other in captivity, they have know choice but to inter-breed, so if you don't support cross-breeding why don't you keep your Eastern and Blotched Blue-Tongue's seperate from each other in different enclosures so they don't get to inter-breed in captivity.


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## horsesrule (Dec 26, 2008)

I used to have a huge pit outside and in it there was stumpys, eastern blue tongues, blotch blueys, and some bearded dragons.

All these animals usually overlap in areas and sorry but its not always feasable or practical to seperate blotch blue tongues from eastern blue tongues especially if you are using outdoor pits.


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## Kirby (Dec 26, 2008)

interesting, i dont see a problem with certain hybridising with blueys. if they keep their linage known, the shingleXeastern is interesting.. a little odd, but interesting..


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## Jay84 (Dec 26, 2008)

Just a question..... are their progeny fertile? or sterile mules?


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## Chrisreptile (Dec 26, 2008)

bump73 said:


> QLD 92 Restriction on breeding etc. hybrids of protected animals
> *(1) A person must not—*
> *(a) knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected*
> *animal; *or



Does this mean that in QLD, a person cannot breed Albino Darwin Carpet Pythons?
As Albinisn is a genetic mutation, do these guys fall under the category mutation?


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## peterjohnson64 (Dec 26, 2008)

Sorry but IMHO putting two different species of blueys together in a pit is just like putting a coastal and a diamond together in an aviary. They WILL breed. Therefore it is intentional. If however, you think it isn't and then they do then maybe that first time it wasn't. But from then on it is.

And if they do cross breed please make sure that you stress what they are when selling them. The are not Eastern Blue Tongues and they are not Blotched Blue Tongues. They are hybrids.


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## princessparrot (Jan 11, 2017)

notechistiger said:


> I have _never_ seen nor heard about an Eastern blue tongue cross shingleback. I was under the impression that shinglebacks were fussy breeders and only breed with unrelated individuals of their own species?


I have two shinglebacks and an eastern blue tongue living together and the male has been going for the female for a few years now but she's shown no interest and now I think he's moved to my bluetongue cos they've been showing interest and sexual/mating behaviour towards each other... Not sure what will have or if it will work out but anyway....


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## KingsReptiles (Aug 31, 2017)

to answer your original question, yes. Tiliqua species can interbreed, mainly the most common crossbreeds in captivity is Eastern x Blotched, ive heard of Eastern x Shingleback, and other crossbreeds could probably be done, personally i prefer pure bred animals, and in some states it is illegal to crossbreed, NSW and VIC allow it, not sure about other states


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## GBWhite (Aug 31, 2017)

KingsReptiles said:


> to answer your original question, yes. Tiliqua species can interbreed, ive heard of Eastern x Shingleback,



I very much doubt that this has any credibility.


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## kankryb (Sep 2, 2017)

Scincoides x rugosa do interbreed
nigrolutea x rugosa do interbreed
it has been note by Longley (1941,1944) and mertens(1950)and others. Here in Denmark, 10 years ago, someone had fertile offspring form aspera x chimaerea so All tiliqua can breed if you put them together

I just had a look in a aussie book, A guide to Australian skinks in captivity by Dr. Danny Brown and on page 179 he has a bit on hybridisation in the wild and captivity


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## KingsReptiles (Sep 6, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> I very much doubt that this has any credibility.


Oh ok then


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## Kruz.S (Jan 19, 2018)

Hi I am thinking about breeding some blue tongues and was wondering if you could give me some tips and can blue tongues be differant ages to breed or not
[doublepost=1516314026,1516313502][/doublepost]Hi all will blue tongues breed if they are differant ages


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## Scutellatus (Jan 19, 2018)

Kruz.S said:


> Hi I am thinking about breeding some blue tongues and was wondering if you could give me some tips and can blue tongues be differant ages to breed or not
> [doublepost=1516314026,1516313502][/doublepost]Hi all will blue tongues breed if they are differant ages


Yes Blue Tongues will breed at different ages, as long as they are sexually mature.


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## NGold (Nov 15, 2018)

Kirby said:


> it is possible, it also regularly happens, especially over seas.
> 
> it isn't recommended on an over-all ethical level, hence why its illegal.



How is it not ethical?


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## nuttylizardguy (Nov 16, 2018)

NGold said:


> How is it not ethical?


Likely because it produces hybids who have severe birth defects and are prone to short lives of poor quality and because it will cause issues amongst wild pure breed populations if the hybrid escapes or is released to the wild.

Only reason I see for doing this is $ the hybrid can attract because they are "unigue / rare", and there are money hungry breeders who don't really care if the animals produced are healthy or if they have birth defects or inherent health issues.


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## Sdaji (Nov 16, 2018)

nuttylizardguy said:


> Likely because it produces hybids who have severe birth defects and are prone to short lives of poor quality and because it will cause issues amongst wild pure breed populations if the hybrid escapes or is released to the wild.
> 
> Only reason I see for doing this is $ the hybrid can attract because they are "unigue / rare", and there are money hungry breeders who don't really care if the animals produced are healthy or if they have birth defects or inherent health issues.



The hybrids don't have severe birth defects. Or any birth defects. Hybrids often live longer than their pure counterparts because of hybrid vigour.

Hybrids pose no more risk than pure animals escaping outside their range. Especially in the case of blue-tongueds, the risk is negligible. Wild hybrids occur naturally from time to time (I've personally seen wild hybrid Tiliqua nigrolutea x T. scincoides) and despite being strong animals, the hybrids don't have good reproductive success, so are far as population dynamics are concerned are pretty much irrelevant. The largest genetic risk to wild populations is pure animals of different populations of the same species escaping. If a Melbourne blue-tongued lizard gets out up north and breeds with the locals, it doesn't matter how pure a Melbourne one it was, all its babies are going to be hybrids, and those hybrids will likely have high reproductive success, as opposed to something like a Melbourne scincoides x WA occipitalis getting out up north.

Which species/subspecies of Tiliqua to you have reason to believe will have large risk of birth defects, and what evidence do you have for it?
[doublepost=1542344338,1542343786][/doublepost]


GBWhite said:


> I very much doubt that this has any credibility.



I've seen this hybrid, it has been done. Seems like the lack of credibility is with you. You should learn more about things before commenting on them in this way.
[doublepost=1542344440][/doublepost]


Chrisreptile said:


> Does this mean that in QLD, a person cannot breed Albino Darwin Carpet Pythons?
> As Albinisn is a genetic mutation, do these guys fall under the category mutation?



According to the law, yes. I remember when the law was introduced, it caused a bit of a stir, but a decade later no one has been pulled up on it. They know the explosive can of worms it would open and don't want to go there.


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## cris (Nov 16, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> According to the law, yes. I remember when the law was introduced, it caused a bit of a stir, but a decade later no one has been pulled up on it. They know the explosive can of worms it would open and don't want to go there.



They are changing the law to allow deleterious mutations and hybrids to be legal. They are also adding in a thing where you have to pay extra to be treated as a criminal.

Hybrids also are subject to outbreeding depression. Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what yer gerna gyet.


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## nuttylizardguy (Nov 16, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> Which species/subspecies of Tiliqua to you have reason to believe will have large risk of birth defects, and what evidence do you have for it?
> [doublepost=1542344338,1542343786][/doublepost]
> 
> I've seen this hybrid, it has been done. Seems like the lack of credibility is with you. You should learn more about things before commenting on them in this way.
> ...



Is there a vested interest on your behalf ? 

Personally , I would rather have pure breds and have no interest in hybrids or rare morphs.


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## Sdaji (Nov 17, 2018)

cris said:


> They are changing the law to allow deleterious mutations and hybrids to be legal. They are also adding in a thing where you have to pay extra to be treated as a criminal.
> 
> Hybrids also are subject to outbreeding depression. Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what yer gerna gyet.



Hybrid vigour is the rule, outbreeding depression is the rare exception, except for reproductive ability, which isn't a welfare issue.

The actual namesake example, the mule, demonstrates the point. They're pretty much always infertile (outbreeding depression), but are stronger than either of the parents (hybrid vigour). The inability to have offspring is not a welfare issue, the animals are strong and happy, they just can't reproduce (they can still have sex and enjoy it though!). In the context of release issues, this is another benefit.
[doublepost=1542378271,1542378143][/doublepost]


nuttylizardguy said:


> Is there a vested interest on your behalf ?



Only in opinions and information being shared and expressed being based on facts, evidence and logic rather than pushing narratives based on what people desire to be true rather than what is. This is a rare motive, but it is mine. I understand it is difficult for most people to get their heads around this concept.



> Personally , I would rather have pure breds and have no interest in hybrids or rare morphs.



Your personal preference is completely irrelevant, as is mine.


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