# no thermostat setups



## TigerCoastal (Sep 30, 2010)

Hey everyone after reading through the http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-discussion-42/microclimate-failures-144938/ thread it has got me thinking about changing my set-up to running no thermostat. I was wondering if people who run these kinda of set-ups could post pics and give a few details (enclosure size, heating type, wattage, ventilation) as well as ambient temps in the area that you keep your snakes? 
Cheers


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## zuesowns (Sep 30, 2010)

I wouldn't recommend using no thermostat. microclimate isn't the only thermostat brand out there. I have used mine microclimate for 3 years without issue.


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## TigerCoastal (Sep 30, 2010)

sorry zeus thats your opinion, i only want to hear from people that run this kind of set up, dont want to start a crap fight


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## LiasisKing (Sep 30, 2010)

i only have one enclosure with a thermostat, all the others (8 of them) have no thermostats. 

all of them have heat mats and/or rocks, i have set them up so that 1/3 of the enclosure is hot (from the mat/rock/cord) and the other 2/3 is cool ... i am never had any issues with these ... 

my beardie enclosure took some experimentation to get the right size globe, i have a 100W infra-red globe, and a 26W 10.0 UVB globe. i also have a heat mat underneath for night time heat  

i can give you some picture examples if you want ? 
KEL


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## J-A-X (Sep 30, 2010)

I will post pics when i get home on the weekend, as Tiger has said, this isn't a thermostat Vs no Thermostat debate,
Just a way to get information about alternative setups, There was a similar thread about 3 years ago, but some updated pics and info would be nice,


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## J-A-X (Sep 30, 2010)

LiasisKing said:


> i only have one enclosure with a thermostat, all the others (8 of them) have no thermostats.
> 
> all of them have heat mats and/or rocks, i have set them up so that 1/3 of the enclosure is hot (from the mat/rock/cord) and the other 2/3 is cool ... i am never had any issues with these ...
> 
> ...



The more pictures the better, like they say a picture is worth a thousand words


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## zan777 (Sep 30, 2010)

Hey guys,

for my future monitor enclosure i am planning to have a basking light under thermostat, and was thinking of having a heat mat on timer to give light warmth during the night. my question is with heatmats, what sort of temperature would each wattage give when running without a thermostat to limit its power?


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## JAS101 (Sep 30, 2010)

i am eager to see some setups .


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## J-A-X (Sep 30, 2010)

i wouldn't run a heat mat without a thermostat... i wouldn't run either of them, unless they are babies i wouldn't give them night heat, and heat mat are known for starting fires... and thats another thread entirely, if you are still going to do the heat mat do it with a thermostat, but find the 'other thread' regarding Microclimate failures, and PM one of the guys on there, they know a heap more about thermostats than i want to know,

Why would you run a heat light on a thermo but not a heat mat ?? 

Just pick the 'right' wattage globe and leave the thermostat out of it, 

as i have said I'm away from home until the weekend , so until then i will stop posting comments, but i will 'prepare' a post that explains what i consider the 'right way to run a no thermostat setup' including how to test what wattage globe to have, so we don't have people throwing 100w globes (with no thermostats) into 60cm square tanks


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## TigerCoastal (Sep 30, 2010)

LiasisKing said:


> i only have one enclosure with a thermostat, all the others (8 of them) have no thermostats.
> 
> all of them have heat mats and/or rocks, i have set them up so that 1/3 of the enclosure is hot (from the mat/rock/cord) and the other 2/3 is cool ... i am never had any issues with these ...
> 
> ...


 
Pics would be grate mate 

I know this isnt the "standard" way of keeping as far as most people are concerned but after researching regional temps and stuff like that how many places have the same day time temps day after day, or night time temps? Not many there is always a few degrees variation so why not try to work that into your set-up? I know the argument that they are captive, not wild, but effectivly what are breeders doing that cool their snakes? trying to mimic seasonal change to bring on breeding, so if it is needed/beneficial for breeding why not for the rest of the year?


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## AM Pythons (Sep 30, 2010)

View attachment 165871
View attachment 165870
the only thermo i run is on my incubator, use low watt heat mats & heat cords you want need thermo's...


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## JAS101 (Sep 30, 2010)

i have just been doing some searching , this might be handy for some pepole .
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/thermostats-87162/


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## TA1PAN (Sep 30, 2010)

I don't run a thermostat in this enclosure. I have a 75 watt urs heat bulb and a large branch up near the bulb so my coastal can choose what temperature she wants. i have a thermometer about half way down the enclosure on the same side of the heat bulb,during the day it reads around 30deg and at night it drops to 25deg.


View attachment 165869


I also have a 3x2x2 melamine enclosure. When i first got it i put a 50watt heat globe in there and in the matter of 5mins it was 40deg,so i would only not use thermostats in tall enclosures, Manley because small enclosures dont have enough air flow and will over heat very fast.


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## Scleropages (Sep 30, 2010)

Low wattage bulbs and lots of vents... I keep alot of reptiles and they all seem to breed/eat and pooh the way they should without thermos. As long as they have access to a warm spot and can get their body temp up to 30 - 33C (warmer for monitors) they should be fine.
Any enclosures I do use thermos with (GTP and a few BHPs) I still use low wattage heat sourses so if the thermo is stuck on heat they don't cook. Cheers.


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## JAS101 (Sep 30, 2010)

what globes is everyone using in ther no thermostat setups ? just party globes , low wattage heat emitters ?


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## TigerCoastal (Sep 30, 2010)

AM what size are your pine fronted enclosures and what wattage mat/cord are you using? For starters i am looking at converting 4x2.5x2 enclosures


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## 1issie (Sep 30, 2010)

I have one but the heat went on off on off,so my dad bought a new one,(the cage,heat lamp,light and thermostat were 2nd hand)we haven't put it in yet and we've changed the globe,it fine now,im seriously considering getting rid of the thermostat coz my beardie looked dead so ihad to carry him around to keep him warm.


P.S He's still alive


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## JAS101 (Sep 30, 2010)

trying not to hijack the thread , but i have a question about box placement .
if i was to put a boxed area in would it need to run the height of the enclosure , or could it just be like a box ?


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## AM Pythons (Sep 30, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> what globes is everyone using in ther no thermostat setups ? just party globes , low wattage heat emitters ?



no globes, they blow, heat mats/cords....easiest,cheapest,most reliable heat sorce...


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## JAS101 (Sep 30, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> no globes, they blow, heat mats/cords....easiest,cheapest,most reliable heat sorce...


 ahh ok , so if a heat mat got over 33c or so the snake would just move off it ? i guess what im saying is im not real keen on buying 5 diffrent watt mats or cord to try to see if the get hot enough or too hot .


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## AM Pythons (Sep 30, 2010)

TigerCoastal said:


> AM what size are your pine fronted enclosures and what wattage mat/cord are you using? For starters i am looking at converting 4x2.5x2 enclosures



1200x900x600mm, i use 280x280mm 14 watt heat mats on those bigger enclosures, i use 6m URS heat cords on everything else....


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## harley0402 (Sep 30, 2010)

my mother has a centralian python that has a set up like it would be in the wild, hes use to it being like that since he was a baby and is now 5 years old. he is in a sun room and has the sunlight during the day and when its night time its night time. he comes out for the sun every morning and when he has had enough he moves away from it. she also takes him outside in the grass. in winter when there is not much sun she puts a heat light on for him and agian when he moves away from it she turns it off. He is a very healthy specimen and a great snake. We live in timber homes so we dont like to leave anything on at night or if we are not home. My father also had a carpet python when i was young with the same set up and he lived through to old age, happy and healthy and never bit anyone in my family.


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## AM Pythons (Sep 30, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> ahh ok , so if a heat mat got over 33c or so the snake would just move off it ? i guess what im saying is im not real keen on buying 5 diffrent watt mats or cord to try to see if the get hot enough or too hot .



buy the matt size u want, then use different thickness timber/paper/slate to adjust your heat, i run mine at around 33-35 with just the heat mat sitting under the melamine enclosure its byself..


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## ezekiel86 (Sep 30, 2010)

some nice set up pics guys!


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## LiasisKing (Sep 30, 2010)

Here are a few of mine, the enclosure in the third pic (the one with the red light in it) is the only one with a thermostat... 
all the rest are on heat mats/rocks/cords or a combination of all three  
i am never had any issues with globes blowing, with or without a thermostat, so either i am lucky or everyone else is unlucky :/








taken on my phone, sorry about the grainy-ness-ism


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## J-A-X (Sep 30, 2010)

Morelia666 said:


> I also have a 3x2x2 melamine enclosure. When i first got it i put a 50watt heat globe in there and in the matter of 5mins it was 40deg,so i would only not use thermostats in tall enclosures, Manley because small enclosures dont have enough air flow and will over heat very fast.





ZOOJAS said:


> what globes is everyone using in ther no thermostat setups ? just party globes , low wattage heat emitters ?





AM Pythons said:


> no globes, they blow, heat mats/cords....easiest,cheapest,most reliable heat sorce...



I use heat cords on all 6 of my pythons, all 25w, EVEN on the coastal mansion(1800H x 1200W x 750D) and that has a energy efficient 11w globe for day/night photo period. i'll measure my Juvi tanks but i sure they are vertical tanks - 420H x800w X 300D (smaller than your 900 x 600 x 600 tanks Morellia666)
sorry... you'll have to wait for pics, ,
next time i go away for work i'm loading all my tank pics on a USB ! !


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## JAS101 (Sep 30, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> buy the matt size u want, then use different thickness timber/paper/slate to adjust your heat, i run mine at around 33-35 with just the heat mat sitting under the melamine enclosure its byself..


 sounds good , because i will have another 15 or so enclosures to setup soon.


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## TigerCoastal (Sep 30, 2010)

so basically if you want to use this method your better off using heat mats/cord? My 3 bank of enclosures has a single piece of melamine as a roof/floor between each enclosure, would i be better off making a "box" to mount the heat mat to the roof of the lower enclosures or make a heat box to sit on the floor in the basking spot?


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## Bec137 (Sep 30, 2010)

I dont use one. I have things set up so it reaches 28 degrees on the basking spot, and i have a heat mat on the floor. doesnt over heat. I did this after speaking to Gavin from Scales and Tails. He said he doesnt use a thermostat in any of his tanks except the incubators and u get what you pay for. he said hes running about a $2000 thermostat coz the cheap ones just arent accurate or reliable. now ur really guna bite at me, i dont have a cage over my heat lamp either. it never gets turned off so the snake sees that it is always hot and not something to wrap around. hes never burnt himself on it and ive had this setup going for about a year.


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## Bec137 (Sep 30, 2010)

its also about a 30x30cm heat mat, and only a 40w heat globe


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## LiasisKing (Sep 30, 2010)

and some more ...


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## No-two (Sep 30, 2010)

This method has been working with many people for a long time. Low wattage globes are probably the best way, 25 in summer and 40 in winter (down here in Melbourne) I've been using it for several years after having problems with thermostats myself. Making the enclosures with a divider either half way (or less then half is fine) with a 10cms gap at either the front or back, or a big hole to allow the snake to pass through make it very easy for them to escape the heat, the cold ends are also alot colder when there is a divider, which is great because most of my snakes spend their time in the cold ends and bask early morning/late afternoon. 

I have changed a few things to thermostats early last year as I was interested in a new one that was avalible, it's a great thermostat and works fine, some womas are gravid using the thermo, another is with no thermo and also gravid. It works extremely well in Melbourne due to the colder climate. In summer if the room temperature reaches over 27 or 28 I just turn the heat all off. A divider and a low wattage globe is pretty self explanitory but here is a photo either way. 

In winter I've put 60watts for the bottom enclosure as it's on the floor and colder, and not put any in the top enclosure as it gets heated fine by the others underneth. That's another good thing, when a globe blows no rush to get a new one as the enclosures above and below provid enough heat (providing they're stacked). Mine get about 16hours heat in summer, anywhere down to 8 if I feel like it in winter (generally about 11 though).

I don't do it with headcords in racks, they're capable of producing alot of heat (especailly when it's lined up together in a row under insulation tape and so forth, gets very hot) and filling a large rack with multiple low wattage cords is unpractical. 

This is the only photo I have, it's about 3 years old but you get the idea, still the same enclosures.


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## J-A-X (Sep 30, 2010)

Bec137 said:


> ............. now ur really guna bite at me, i dont have a cage over my heat lamp either. it never gets turned off so the snake sees that it is always hot and not something to wrap around. hes never burnt himself on it and ive had this setup going for about a year.


 
before i 'found' heatcords i did exactly the same thing, it was a 40w 'night glow' and no cage, and no burnt snake,
from what i have read, it seems most snakes get burnt when the globe gets turned off and the snake wraps the cage to get warm, and then when the thermostat cuts back in, thats when they get burnt, especially with some of the higher watt ceramics, with an on / off thermostat, i wouildn't think the pulsing ones would have the same issue with burning as its a gradual increase not a sudden heat surge, I dont think anyone claims that our beloved snakes are intelligent, and they don't move quick enough to avoid getting burnt....


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## J-A-X (Sep 30, 2010)

great photo no-two, 
for those that looked at the photo and wondered how the snake accesses between the two areas, you will see that the dividing wall is set back from the glass, so snakey glides between the dividing wall and the glass. yes, i spent several minutes trying to figure it out, cos i jumped straight to the Pic and didn't read the full post LOL .


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## cris (Sep 30, 2010)

Just posted this in the other thread

You dont need thermostats for most reptiles, even if you do live in areas with extreme temperatures. You simply provide access to heat and access to room temp that is well insulated from the heat. On hot days its important to turn of heating and sometimes provide cooling regardless of if a thermostat is used. 

A couple posts have mentioned heat cords and left out the wattage or length, be careful that you know what wattage and length is safe without a thermostat. For snakes and under plastic tubs i use the 4m 15 watt cords and wouldnt reccomend using anything hotter (more power for a given length) under tubs.


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## TigerCoastal (Sep 30, 2010)

thanks no-two, it might be easy to describe and understand who people set up their enclosures, but to see how different people do it is good. I wouldnt have thought about leaving the gap at the front between the glass, how well does that idea work with larger snakes/after feeding? Did using the peg board give you any problems when first setting the enclosures up? And is that just a blue party globe or another kind? Sorry for all the questions mate, but your dealing with almost the same climate i am


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## eamonn (Sep 30, 2010)

I have a couple of enclosures just on your typical household timer. In my spotted python enclosure, I have the heat mat placed on the outside of the enclosure under the bottom (made from melamine). It works great and keeps a good constant temperature.


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 30, 2010)

i have never used thermostats in my enclosures.i simply use a 15 watt fluro bulb under a 6mm ply basking pad in the top corner of the enclosure.with a temp gun i find that it heats the pad to around 32 degrees.i only have it come on between 7 till lunch time.
this setup works well because you aren't changing the ambient air temp,so the snakes get to cycle naturally alot better.
and before i cop flack from not having a guard around them,i used to put them on the one under the basking spot but they never seem to coil around it.they always sit on the basking pad. and if they do go around the light ,the 15watt bulb isn't hot enough to burn them(but i still recommend to use a guard).i still use a guard on the main light because they try to hang off it after the basking light goes off on cool days.
i have been using this setup for the last 7 years or so and never had an issue in that time. using the low wattage bulbs you dont need to worry about burns ,overheating cages, thermostats and you will have alot cheaper power bill.i have had great breeding success with this setup as well.
cheers
simon


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## GSMenardi (Sep 30, 2010)

I have my Darwin in a glass fishtank, with a heat mat under one half of it. If you put your hand on the bottom of the glass it feels really hot but I use old cloth nappies folded in half as the substrate which makes the floor just warm and my snake is happy enough to laze about on them. I also have his waterbowl on that side so when he goes for his swims it's not too cold for him. Never had any burns, and if the weather heats up but I think he might still need the extra warmth then I fold the nappies into 4 to stop it getting too warm. The top is covered with fly wire so there's plenty of ventilation.


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## mysnakesau (Oct 1, 2010)

I don't use thermostats except on my hatchy rack. If you run heating that is just the size you need you shouldn't need a thermostat. Instead of say, running a 150w bulb or an 80W heatcord and relying on a thermostat to keep the temps down, I use a 60W light bulb or 25W heatcords. Still creates the heat spot they need and the rest of the tank is just what the room temperature decides. If you find you snakes aren't staying warm enough, put a hide partly over the heat, or have hides in there just big enough for them. When they can coil up tightly it helps them stay warm for longer. All my enclosures are plugged into one powerboard which is controlled by a timer. Heat comes on at 7am and turns off at 5pm in the afternoon. Or on really hot days I can just turn it off at the wall.

I don't use lights in any of my snake tanks anymore. One of my larger boys got burnt, somehow, so I no longer have lights at all. Actually I find my snakes come out of hiding more often now, too. They seem to like the natural light rather than their tank being lit up for all to see. I had a 50w downlight for my spiny tailed monitor on no thermostat, with his slate stacked to 15cm below the light. Never had any problems. He shifted himself from shelf to shelf to where he wanted to be and was happy. Other end of his enclosure was 28c during the warmer months.


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## eamonn (Oct 1, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i have never used thermostats in my enclosures.i simply use a 15 watt fluro bulb under a 6mm ply basking pad in the top corner of the enclosure.with a temp gun i find that it heats the pad to around 32 degrees.i only have it come on between 7 till lunch time.
> this setup works well because you aren't changing the ambient air temp,so the snakes get to cycle naturally alot better.
> and before i cop flack from not having a guard around them,i used to put them on the one under the basking spot but they never seem to coil around it.they always sit on the basking pad. and if they do go around the light ,the 15watt bulb isn't hot enough to burn them(but i still recommend to use a guard).i still use a guard on the main light because they try to hang off it after the basking light goes off on cool days.
> i have been using this setup for the last 7 years or so and never had an issue in that time. using the low wattage bulbs you dont need to worry about burns ,overheating cages, thermostats and you will have alot cheaper power bill.i have had great breeding success with this setup as well.
> ...


 Looks great simon! Might try this with the next set of enclosures I build!


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## daniel1234 (Oct 1, 2010)

I am running a 4x2x2 ft (1200x600x600) enclosure on an 80watt globe at the moment. I am thinking of decreasing this and utilising the heat mat which is not in use. I am keeping my newly aquired jungles in here and they love to wrap around the lamp cage. Although maybe if the cage was not there they would realise it was to hot to touch.
This is my second try with no themo, I ran a 2ft aquarium on a 25 watt gobe on top of the cold end of a big enclosure and kept good temps. I like dimmers over themostats also. Constant heat and you can adjust as outside climate changes. I have one set up like this and no issues in the few years Ive had it.

Has anyone adopted snakes that were maintained on higher temps and switched them to a no thermo set up or cooler temps where focus was to provide a good warm spot over higher ambiant temps? I am thinking of doing this with my current snakes but concerned it may stress them.
My female Bredli was adopted and enclosure runs quite cool and I never changed it because she was doing well already.
My hatchies from her are doing well but I have only ever used a double run of chord for them and the temps never get to maximum ranges.
We have a reptile shop here that does not sell themos because he doesnt believe in them.


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## AM Pythons (Oct 1, 2010)

i really like your set ups Simon, as some ppl know im building a new herproom atm(check my threads) & enclosures aswell, i may just have to pinch a few of your idea's mate..if you dont mind..lol.. cheers Tony


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 1, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> i really like your set ups Simon, as some ppl know im building a new herproom atm(check my threads) & enclosures aswell, i may just have to pinch a few of your idea's mate..if you dont mind..lol.. cheers Tony


go for your life.heres a full photo of one of my enclosures that generally build these days.they are light ,strong,on wheels so they are easy to move around. all the walls are 5-6mm sheet fixed to a pine "cieling battern" frame. probably only costs about $300 to build something like this.


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## AM Pythons (Oct 2, 2010)

slimebo said:


> go for your life.heres a full photo of one of my enclosures that generally build these days.they are light ,strong,on wheels so they are easy to move around. all the walls are 5-6mm sheet fixed to a pine "cieling battern" frame. probably only costs about $300 to build something like this.



i like the single white boxes aswell, look great for yearlings...


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## big_head (Oct 2, 2010)

Hi there, just got these made and have been running them for a couple months. enclosures are 1200 long 600 wide and 400 high. The 'hot area' is 500 long, 600 wide 400 height. Running 75 watt heat panels. Found that the second enclosure from the bottom got quite hot, so only turn the heat panels on for the bottom enclosure and the top two enclosures. Heat from the bottom enclosure heats the floor of the enclosure above nicely. About 34 degree temps, a little warmer and cooler depending where the snake is in the hot area. The cool area is always ambient, or ambient +1. The enclosure on the top has the same dimensions as the others, except is 800mm high (or 1000mm, cant remember). The 'hot box' has the same dimensions as the others. My bredli lives in that one, and loves sitting on top of the hot box to warm up, or on the branch directly above it. After a feed he goes into the warmer area. They all seem to enjoy it, moving between the two all day. Dont have to worry about a thermostat failing and gives them a more natural temperature fluctuation.


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## wokka (Oct 2, 2010)

If you dont want to use thermostats you need a consistent ambient temperature or, alternatively you accept a waste of energy as you need to size you heat sorce for the coldest ambient and waste /lose heat in the warmer ambient temps. I run a few hundred cages awithout thermostats , but in well insulated rooms


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## big_head (Oct 2, 2010)

Where i live atm, i am going to struggle during summer and probably wont use heat for much of it. An insulated room would be ideal, when i move early next year will definitely look into it. for the moment though, i think my setup is not perfect but acceptable!


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## 1issie (Oct 2, 2010)

I joust found out today,i have a micro climate but now puting a thermostat insted.


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## Pythons Rule (Oct 2, 2010)

Because I live in Darwin the temps here are always high 20's and mid 30's so all my cages have no thermostat. I have heat emits in the smaller enclosures (2 bay) I only turn on when I have the air-conditioning on. I have heat rock in 2 bigger enclosures and a heat mat in the mesh enclosure. for ventilation I use mesh fronts, chicken wire enclosures and small vents in another (glass door) I've owned the heat rocks for just over 5 years and have never had a problem with them getting too hot and burning the snakes. They simply move if it gets too hot and they don’t hop on them during the day only when the air-conditioning is on.

I find globs blow too quickly and even though it's a bit for a good heat mat or rock you do end up saving a heep of monie in the long run.


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## Pythons Rule (Oct 2, 2010)

more

View attachment 166238
View attachment 166237
View attachment 166239
View attachment 166240


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 2, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> i like the single white boxes aswell, look great for yearlings...


 
they just have a 20 watt down light in each of them.


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## TigerCoastal (Oct 2, 2010)

Thanks everyone who has posted pics and advice and pm'd me, keep the advice coming as all of it is taken into consideration in what i am designing. One more quick question, using this set-up do the snakes cool themselves in the cooler months, or do you still cut the heat completely for the snakes you wish to breed? Just curious as i have some juvi snakes that i dont want to cool for another year or 2 at most.


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 2, 2010)

TigerCoastal said:


> Thanks everyone who has posted pics and advice and pm'd me, keep the advice coming as all of it is taken into consideration in what i am designing. One more quick question, using this set-up do the snakes cool themselves in the cooler months, or do you still cut the heat completely for the snakes you wish to breed? Just curious as i have some juvi snakes that i dont want to cool for another year or 2 at most.


most of the year i offer a morning basking spot for 4-5 hours until it gets to the stage that it is getting over 28 degrees in my house ,then i turn off the basking spot for those 3-4 hot months


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## Snakewise84 (Oct 2, 2010)

i dont run one i turn it off and on my self the heat light that is but i check how hot and the humidity my self too


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## -Matt- (Oct 2, 2010)

TigerCoastal said:


> Thanks everyone who has posted pics and advice and pm'd me, keep the advice coming as all of it is taken into consideration in what i am designing. One more quick question, using this set-up do the snakes cool themselves in the cooler months, or do you still cut the heat completely for the snakes you wish to breed? Just curious as i have some juvi snakes that i dont want to cool for another year or 2 at most.



The other major advantage with having a cool end and a hot end is that the snakes get to choose what temperature they want to be instead of you telling them what temp they have to be at because there is a much larger temperature gradient compared to what you would get in a typical box type enclosure. The cold end is always at room temperature so in the colder months that cool end can get fairly cold which means that the snakes will cycle themselves (you can turn the heat in the hot end off at night in winter to cool them even moe if you wish). With juvies just don't turn the heat off in the hot end and they will be perfectly fine. They will still get the benifit of experiencing the seasonal changes but still have that warm spot to go to if they need it.


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## mrkos (Oct 2, 2010)

something you need to consider when running no thermostat is your enclosure size all my carpet enclosures including diamonds have a large top shelf with a 40 watt coloured globe directly above a tile even if left on permanently the temp on the tile does not exceed 35 degrees on a hot day in winter it gets to roughly 32 with no timer . In saying that i use a timer for all of them and usually the light turns off for 15 minutes every say 80 minutes with an extended period being off during the hotter part of the day, because the heat is at the top escaping through peg board backing the snake has the option of moving around through other parts of the enclosure if it gets too warm. The mistake most people make is getting too large a heat source with too small an enclosure thats when over heating will occure. Even if you are restricted with your enclosure size a divider down the middle with a large hole will provide a hot and cold room for your animal. I guess the key elements are dont use a large heat source max 50 watt thats in qld and try to observe your pythons behaviour they will usually let you know if their conditions are not satisfactory


TigerCoastal said:


> Hey everyone after reading through the http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-discussion-42/microclimate-failures-144938/ thread it has got me thinking about changing my set-up to running no thermostat. I was wondering if people who run these kinda of set-ups could post pics and give a few details (enclosure size, heating type, wattage, ventilation) as well as ambient temps in the area that you keep your snakes?
> Cheers


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## wokka (Oct 2, 2010)

These cages have a hot "room" and a cold "room" connected by a porthole. I no longer use globes,just heatmats with a timer such that they are on about the same time as the sun is up. Temperature on the heatmat tile is about 32 and in the cool room I try to keep it below 25. the heatmats are 13 watts. The globes were 15watts.


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## Snakewise84 (Oct 2, 2010)

mines a heat red globe think is 50watt its not on of those glo one i cant fine the box


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## AM Pythons (Oct 2, 2010)

View attachment 166312
hot one side(tall) cold the other.. just a hole in the board for her to get through.. very simple... this is the only globe i run & only have been using it for a few months..


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## J-A-X (Oct 4, 2010)

Jaxrtfm said:


> I use heat cords on all 6 of my pythons, all 25w, EVEN on the coastal mansion(1800H x 1200W x 750D) and that has a energy efficient 11w globe for day/night photo period. i'll measure my Juvi tanks but i sure they are vertical tanks - 420H x800w X 300D (smaller than your 900 x 600 x 600 tanks Morellia666)
> sorry... you'll have to wait for pics, ,


 
sorry i've taken so long to post these pics, but here they are, hopefully they are helpful to some of those that are curious,

firstly the 'Kiddy condo' - my Juvi Darwins,


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## J-A-X (Oct 4, 2010)

These are the happy residents of the 'Kiddy condo' (one bank of three and the other a bank of 2), i added a 'grass' shelf in the hot end as they were trying to get under the non slip matting, even though the thermometer was telling me it was 34c they obviously wanted it a little warmer, and they love climbing under there after a feed, and the first photo shows a shed in there (now removed) that is in one perfect piece, so they seem to be happy


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## J-A-X (Oct 4, 2010)

Finally the Taj Mahal 







Whenever you set up a new enclosure, with or without a thermostat, PLEASE start with a lower wattage heat source, set up all furnishings and water bowls etc, and then let it run, with doors closed, for at least a week, to let the enclosure come to temperature, timber/melamine will absorb some heat, so you need to let it warm up to give you a true reading. if you have the right temps for your reptile to sit and digest with a lower wattage globe, you not only save $$ on your electricity bill, but if you do run a thermostat then IF it fails you are at less risk of cooking your reptile if it has a suitable area within its enclosure that is 'below critical' with a temp as cold as your ambient room temp.

The safety of your reptiles should come before saving $$$$.


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## David275 (Oct 4, 2010)




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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

David275, do you have any details of what wattage your heat source is and the size of the tank ? it can be a guide for those wanting to setup something of a similar size.


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## ihaveherps (Oct 5, 2010)

see some interesting things being advised in this thread...... now I admit that your enclosures shouldnt need thermos to control stupidly large heat sources, though to advise that they not be used at all, even as a failsafe is unwise...

I will dig up a pic I have of heat tape that smouldered through 12mm marine ply through and through..... 

but heres what a heatcord did to my carpet, after burning out, the contraction of the rubber shield dragged the cord off the top of the enclosure.... anyway have a geez... and think, there are pics in this thread of these cords inside enclosures, unprotected, thus easily damaged.... and when this cord went, the inner cabling was bare, and could electrocute a snake without a problem, if not light up marine grass ...






another piece of poor advice i have seen given was the heatmats between timber, be it directly beneath an enclosure, or sandwiched between 2 enclosures... please dont take this advice, not only is it dangerous to have the mats completely insulated, and thus over-heat and fail, but by nature, being resistance based heat sources, uneven preassure on the mats, can induce an area of higher resistance (same occurs when all electrical cables are constricted too tightly be it too tightly terminated, bunched too many together, or under direct physical preassure) and in these elements increased resistance = a hot spot, which can cause the mat to catch fire. Kinks in mats also increase resistance.

Not trying to start a fight, but hope that people dont come to greif using poor techniques, because they were taken as gospel, via an interweb forum.


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## David275 (Oct 5, 2010)

In my enclosure shown above, i use a 160W Exo-Terra Solar Glo Sun Simulating Lamp (recommended by the reptile shop owner). I also use a heat rock on the ground underneath the light.
My enclosure is 90cm x 45cm x 45cm.

I also use an outdoor enclosure during the Summer.


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

David275 said:


> In my enclosure shown above, i use a 160W Exo-Terra Solar Glo Sun Simulating Lamp (recommended by the reptile shop owner). I also use a heat rock on the ground underneath the light.
> My enclosure is 90cm x 45cm x 45cm.
> 
> I also use an outdoor enclosure during the Summer.



160w without a thermostat ?? - i initially had a minor panic attack until i went back to your pic and noticed that the light is outside the tank, and other similar tanks i have seen have a mesh roof, and you have a dragon not a python in there, 160w and no thermostat is not something i would suggest for a python....


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## TigerCoastal (Oct 5, 2010)

jax thanks so much for that (could you come convert my enclosures? lol) I'm going to have to build a trail/temporary enclosure so that while i am converting my others i have somewhere to keep my snakes...woohoo just thought of my excuse to to be able to get another snake once i have finished...

Ihaveherps thanks for posting, i have never used heat cords/mats but i do know that the heat that they can produce can easily start fires, and that pic clearly shows the results of what can happen, but i believe if you take as many precautions as possible and spend the time to design it properly (+ follow manufacturers instructions) the risk is about as great as a thermostat failing and starting a fire that way. That said though, as i have more experience using globes/heat emitters that is the way that i will probably go.

Wokka what size are those enclosures you posted the pics of? Am thinking i like that idea of the divider in them as i have tallish enclosures and want to have some branches in each side, would also make converting my enclosures easier/cheaper too.


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

LOL, if you are refering to the 'Taj' that was a custom build. (pics in my album 'taj mahal') from scratch. however the kiddy condo was just 5 x $10 bookcases from cheapaschips. $10 for glass for each and a 25w heatcord, a slap of paint and that is the result, as the weather warms i will drill more ventilation holes than they currently have.

I have 2 corner TV units in my shed that i will be converting for two of the Darwins, and i have a couple of ripper themes running in my head too....

the big tip with heat cords/ mats, is that you must allow the heat to disperse, you cant completely seal in the edges or coil the cord like a mozzie coil, or encase the cord/mat.... the heat needs to be able to escape.
In the kiddy condo you can see that the 'mdf cord covering' is raised above the cord, its not sitting directly on the cord, and it can also escape along the front edge.
In the 'Taj' the tile is also sitting a little higher than the cord, and the front edge of the tile is 'open' and i have drilled a hole in the shelf in the centre of each curve of the cord, Once she has digested her meal i will try and get a picture for you to show what i mean. it sounds a lot more complicated than it is. 

any form of trapped heat can cause a fire....


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## cris (Oct 5, 2010)

Yeah, its important to have some understading of thermodynamics to keep reptiles. You dont have to be a rocket scientist, but having a basic understanding of conduction, radiation and thermal mass is important even if you dont know what the words mean.

If you put a 1 watt heat source in perfect insulation it will catch fire, if somehow the heatsource didnt fail and the surrounding insulation didnt vapourise it could reach temperatures hotter than the sun.


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

ihaveherps said:


> see some interesting things being advised in this thread...... now I admit that your enclosures shouldnt need thermos to control stupidly large heat sources, though to advise that they not be used at all, even as a failsafe is unwise...
> 
> I will dig up a pic I have of heat tape that smouldered through 12mm marine ply through and through.....
> 
> ...


 
glad to have your input ihaveherps and i couldnt agree more, the heat source (cord or mat) shouldn't be 'enclosed, entrapped, twisted' etc, and you pic is proof as to why there needs to be significant testing before going ahead with any heating option. I have added more info in my post above about allowing sufficient airflow for these things,

Your not the first person to say that their heat cords just keep getting hotter and hotter.... what wattage was used when it burnt the carpet. i have only used 50w or less heat cords and with the appropriate airflow i have never had an issue with them on 24/7 for months at a time (hatchy tubs) no thermostat. Have i just been lucky with the 12 cords i have or is it maybe a manufacturer related problelm. ?


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## JAS101 (Oct 5, 2010)

great pics and helpfull info jaxrtfm


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

cris said:


> Yeah, its important to have some understading of thermodynamics to keep reptiles. You dont have to be a rocket scientist, but having a basic understanding of conduction, radiation and thermal mass is important even if you dont know what the words mean.
> 
> If you put a 1 watt heat source in perfect insulation it will catch fire, if somehow the heatsource didnt fail and the surrounding insulation didnt vapourise it could reach temperatures hotter than the sun.



a lot of what you say cris is commonsense, and as we all know, common sense isn't that common. otherwise we wouldn't have threads like 'my snake escaped' & 'my snake got cooked' etc. in a lot of cases children that are trying to set up their first tanks, and far too many parents think that their kids know what they are doing, which is when the trouble starts.

the aim in this thread is to get some valid info out there for alternatives for thermostats and also, it seems, heatmat/cord setups as these seem to be the most common heat sources used with out thermostats.


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

thanks zoojas, its not easy sometimes to find the right words to explain what you need to explain, and there will always be someone who reads it in an entirely different way to what was intended, do you think there is something that maybe needs explaining in more detail .... I 'blew' my knee while away with work late last week so i'm keyboard bound at home for a couple of weeks, so will have plenty of time to consider how to word my posts LOL


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 5, 2010)

We now design our enclosures to run a concentrated basking spot with a 12v downlight pointed straight at it and the rest of the enclosure with no heating. The plusses of this are the bulbs are cheap, no thermo required because the heat is controlled by the proximity of the basking shelf, no cage required, looks good, the lights are compact, also has low power consumption especially for large enclosures as your not heating the enclosure. The only downside is that you dont have the option of night heating.


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

woohoo we now have a professional enclosure builder advocating no thermostat setups.... at least now we don't look like some radical right wing group determined to undermine all that is written in the various python bibles :lol:

maybe you could have an option for night heating ? a small hole drilled to allow the use of a low watt cord.
(15-25w depending on the area to be covered, 15w for a 'night box' or 25 for under floor 'take the chilll off heating)


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 5, 2010)

haha we havent really had a need for night heating but its a good idea Jax


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 5, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> We now design our enclosures to run a concentrated basking spot with a 12v downlight pointed straight at it and the rest of the enclosure with no heating. The plusses of this are the bulbs are cheap, no thermo required because the heat is controlled by the proximity of the basking shelf, no cage required, looks good, the lights are compact, also has low power consumption especially for large enclosures as your not heating the enclosure. The only downside is that you dont have the option of night heating.


 
that is a great way to do it ben.i do it myself with some of my enclosures


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## Camo (Oct 5, 2010)

There are plenty of keeper that dont provide night time heat to thier animals. I know a few. There is no one right way to keep pythons. All comes down to how you do it and what works well for you.

I personally run thermostats on all my enclosures. Sure its dear to have bought over 60 thermostats (some in use and some not) but i like the piece of mind.

Each to thier own.


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## blakehose (Oct 5, 2010)

slimebo said:


> that is a great way to do it ben.i do it myself with some of my enclosures



Do you have any pictures of these setups mate? I'm pretty keen to do something similar soon enough.

Cheers.


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> haha we havent really had a need for night heating but its a good idea Jax


 

I just realised you are in Qld, so that explains the lack of concern for night heating, maybe it could be optioned if you sell 'down south' 

and a 12v downlight sounds like a good idea in some of my future vertical setups....



Camo said:


> There are plenty of keeper that dont provide night time heat to thier animals. I know a few. There is no one right way to keep pythons. All comes down to how you do it and what works well for you.
> 
> I personally run thermostats on all my enclosures. Sure its dear to have bought over 60 thermostats (some in use and some not) but i like the piece of mind.
> 
> Each to thier own.


 
i understand your peace of mind with running thermostats, and that is entirely up to you, 

i like the peace of mind that my basking spots are as hot as they are going to get, and if we have a sudden heat wave my animals can find a cool spot. if its going to be 35c or over i turn them off,


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 5, 2010)

Jaxrtfm said:


> I just realised you are in Qld, so that explains the lack of concern for night heating, maybe it could be optioned if you sell 'down south'
> 
> and a 12v downlight sounds like a good idea in some of my future vertical setups....
> 
> we build each enclosure to suit each client with their particular snake and climate, room and budget. The main thing we are trying to figure out is cheaper freight for enclosures around aus


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## Camo (Oct 5, 2010)

Jaxrtfm said:


> if its going to be 35c or over i turn them off


See with a thermostat you dont have to worry about that :lol:


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## TigerCoastal (Oct 5, 2010)

Camo said:


> See with a thermostat you dont have to worry about that :lol:


 
turning a power point off cant fail unless you forget (your own fault)... a thermostat can without your knowledge.....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 5, 2010)

If you use cheap thermostats.


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## zuesowns (Oct 5, 2010)

Those 12v down lights are 50w correct?


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## cris (Oct 5, 2010)

Halogen downlights are an excellent way of heating, not sure where you can buy them cheap though. They used to be in woolies for around $2 but havnt been for there for the last few years. Any ideas on where to get them in bulk cheap before they are banned?



CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> If you use cheap thermostats.


 
The $1000+ type are designed for incubators arnt they?


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## zuesowns (Oct 5, 2010)

I believe he's referring to the thermostats that are below $100 mark.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 5, 2010)

Most modern thermostats are designed to counter overheating by having a cut out switch. Almost like having two thermostats in one. I did discuss this topic with a few of the speakers at the symposium in cairns. There are a few of them that are actually using dimmer switches in some of their enclosures. They do heat the room to maintain steady ambient air temperatures.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 5, 2010)

50w or 20w you can get them in packs at bunnings.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 5, 2010)

I also would not use a $100 thermostat in any of my enclosures. No snake deserves to be fried to death!


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## zuesowns (Oct 5, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I also would not use a $100 thermostat in any of my enclosures. No snake deserves to be fried to death!


 
How much do you spend on thermostats and what brand/type?


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## zuesowns (Oct 5, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> 50w or 20w you can get them in packs at bunnings.



That type of heating is cheap to run, in QLD - 50w is $93 per year, running 24 hours at full nanas (thats of course with my electricity company)


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 5, 2010)

not 24hrs , less than 12hrs. I just got sick of thermostats being all over the place and heat lamps that cost over $50 each blowing all the time. So i went seeking for a simpler design in the downlights. I dont see why a thermo should cost so much or be so unreliable.


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## guzzo (Oct 5, 2010)

No thermos at my house - day temp 35 , night temp 26........good for snakes but hard to sleep!!!


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## J-A-X (Oct 5, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> not 24hrs , less than 12hrs. I just got sick of thermostats being all over the place and heat lamps that cost over $50 each blowing all the time. So i went seeking for a simpler design in the downlights. I dont see why a thermo should cost so much or *be so unreliable*.


 
this is what put me off thermostats, i did a heap of research into thermostats and heatmats before i got into herps and decided that the cost of a 'good' thermostat was a little steep considering i was only going to have 'one snake' (little did i know back then how addictive they are LOL) and for 'one snake' to do without a 'stat was do-able. so i ran low wattage reptile globes with no thermostat, then globes kept blowing even on different outlets (even when i changed the fitting in the tank) so i progressed to the cord when i built the 'Taj' and haven't looked back. I did investigate heat mats but there seemed to be so many failures and fatalities that they were ruled out quickly. 
my 'no thermostat' setup worked so well with the one, that when to others came along it seemed a natural way to go, 
It was a case of budget constraints and my stubborness to find a better way, that led me down this path of no thermostats and i couldn't be happier. and my reptiles all seem to be doing just fine.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 6, 2010)

Theres the key words for not using thermostats: Budget restraints! Most keepers that I know in Australia can not justify spending money on their animals. The cheaper the better unfortunately. This only holds up when you keep animals that are not too hard to replace. The other good reason to use them would be if you lived in places with a tropical climate. Temperatures do not fall out of range to make them sick if kept under these conditions. To be honest, I would rather spend more money on a thermostat that can do everything that I might forget to do. The No thermostat method is good, I guess, if you have a small collection. I can not see this setup practical for collections of a hundred or more snakes. We use racks for all our animals and they allow for more than enough of a thermal gradient. We have kept reptiles for more than a decade and have never had an issue with a thermostat not working. We might just be lucky!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 6, 2010)

I meant: to not use them in tropical areas.


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## TigerCoastal (Oct 6, 2010)

the point of this thread is not to try to save money due to budget constraints, it is something that i have seen mentioned a few times in different threads and being relatively new to the idea i wouldnt know where to start to set up an enclosure in this way, but by getting the information out there it helps others that have had the same idea, and hopefully save a few animals lives from people using to high a wattage heating, wrong set ups ect. Obviously it is possible to set up an enclosure safely in this way as there are alot of people that do it, and have done for a reasonable amount of time without any issues. As i said in post 3, i want this thread to be about setting up enclosures in this way, not an argument about why you should use thermostats.


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## zuesowns (Oct 6, 2010)

Thermostats are expensive, I've brought to and thats over $300. I will need to buy another shortly (another $150-$200)

I agree Carpet pythons, I would rather spend the money that can do everything I might forget to do.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 6, 2010)

I never said its not achievable. I spoke to some big time breeders at the symposium about this topic and a few actually use this method of dimmer switches on low wattage heating equipment. If it works for you, Great! There are pros and cons for both husbandry techniques. Its the same for most things in this world. The no thermostat method is idiot proof but i am sure there are still idiots that could stuff it up. The same with thermostats, you could opt for some chinese brands and never have an issue or you could buy an expensive one and have loads of dramas. Human error can come to play in both scenarios.


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## J-A-X (Oct 6, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I never said its not achievable. I spoke to some big time breeders at the symposium about this topic and a few actually use this method of dimmer switches on low wattage heating equipment. If it works for you, Great! There are pros and cons for both husbandry techniques. Its the same for most things in this world. The no thermostat method is idiot proof but i am sure there are still idiots that could stuff it up. The same with thermostats, you could opt for some chinese brands and never have an issue or you could buy an expensive one and have loads of dramas. Human error can come to play in both scenarios.


 
you are 100% correct on several counts,
"_There are pros and cons for both husbandry techniques"_ absolutely, thats why this thread was started, to bring to light the Pros of this type of setup, 
"_there are still idiots that could stuff it up" - _just when you thought it was idiotproof they build a better idiot....
_"Human error can come to play in both scenarios" _- same as the last statement really, :lol: 

I'm not arguing what setup is right or wrong but personally i would rather rely on my 'Human error' rather than trust in an electronic device.

and its nice to see some 'healthy debating'


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## cheddah (Oct 6, 2010)

I dont keep snakes but a few beardies and skinks.
No thermostats, just a spot light for basking temps, adjust wattage to get desired temp.
Heat pump/air con keeps area outside the enclosures consistent, this way basking spots and or enclosures keep consistent temps day in day out. Use to get a bit toasty on really hot days prior to getting the air con. But now no real risk of ever over heating.
Seems to work really well, great working environment with fresh air all the time, i love it


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## Camo (Oct 6, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> If you use cheap thermostats.


B2ME used here mate :lol:


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## Camo (Oct 6, 2010)

zuesowns said:


> Thermostats are expensive, I've brought to and thats over $300. I will need to buy another shortly (another $150-$200)
> 
> I agree Carpet pythons, I would rather spend the money that can do everything I might forget to do.


If you wanted cheap you should not get into Reptiles IMO

Like i said i have over 60 thermostats and the money has been worth it.


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## Camo (Oct 6, 2010)

TigerCoastal said:


> turning a power point off cant fail unless you forget (your own fault)... a thermostat can without your knowledge.....


Thats why you buy good ones that cut off if a fail occurs. Or some have warning alarms as well.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 6, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Theres the key words for not using thermostats: Budget restraints! Most keepers that I know in Australia can not justify spending money on their animals. The cheaper the better unfortunately.


 I disagree with your thinking...my philosophy is "there is always room for improvement" we constantly modify how we make enclosures to constantly improve them. Each new enclosure is closer to perfect than the one before. I always ask myself, how can this enclosure be better than the one before. This way we evolve a better product continually. With this in mind we currently use the method we do because it is simpler and cheaper and safer in my opinion. I dont believe in throwing money at a problem to fix it, thats what the govt does. I pride myself in devising a better way.


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## TigerCoastal (Oct 6, 2010)

camo why do you think this has anything at all with cost? i have 5 enclosures running the ATC-210 so i dont think that i have gone "cheap" in my choice of thermostats, but that wont change the fact that i have 4 kids (and their friends that visit) that like to press buttons on things....and i dont have a "spare" room to put my snakes in so am looking for a method that cant be tampered with, other than turned off.


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## JAS101 (Oct 6, 2010)

Camo said:


> Thats why you buy good ones that cut off if a fail occurs. Or some have warning alarms as well.


 all the warning alarms in the the world arnt goin to do much good if no one is home .


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## J-A-X (Oct 6, 2010)

:shock: what happened, last i saw we had a civilised debate, now we are getting seriously into thermostats Vs no thermostats..... and we all know that will end in tears, 

the aim of tigercoastals original post was to get pics & ideas on how to set up an enclosure without thermostats, not wether he should run one or not ! 

lets see if we can get this back on track shall we ?? :lol:


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## mrkos (Oct 6, 2010)

this is probly the best post in this thread coming from an obviously well known and respected enclosure builder, it is not about being tight and stingy in regards to your snakes health its about being smart and using abit of common sense always looking for ways of imroving and simplifying the keeping of herps. If you set you enclosure up properly there is no such thing as killing or cooking a snake due to human error, or for that matter electrical failure.


Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> I disagree with your thinking...my philosophy is "there is always room for improvement" we constantly modify how we make enclosures to constantly improve them. Each new enclosure is closer to perfect than the one before. I always ask myself, how can this enclosure be better than the one before. This way we evolve a better product continually. With this in mind we currently use the method we do because it is simpler and cheaper and safer in my opinion. I dont believe in throwing money at a problem to fix it, thats what the govt does. I pride myself in devising a better way.


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## J-A-X (Oct 6, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> I pride myself in devising a better way.


 
 THATS a quote to live by. Onya JPN


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## cris (Oct 6, 2010)

Camo said:


> If you wanted cheap you should not get into Reptiles IMO


 
This arguement gets used often by many. To say you have to spend lots of money to keep reptiles as well if not better than those that are rich and buy all the high tech overpriced useless stuff is BSIMO. It simply comes down to providing what is required, IMO this rarely has much to do with money. A bit of thinking and maybe a little extra effort is worth more that heaps of money.

You can buy a poorly deisgned enclosure decked out with heaps of equipment that isnt needed and usually overpriced, yet have a really bad setup or at the other end of the scale you could use a plastic tub and a heat cord and spend less then $50 and still provide a setup as good as or better than one that costs $1000 or more. There are obviously plenty of setups that are in between, but money isnt as important as many think.


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## zuesowns (Oct 7, 2010)

I didn't say I wanted cheap, nor am I taking the cheap route, i've spent over $2k on a $300 Python...

It's not about how much you spend, however, it's about the requirements and well being of your snake, I mean seriously - they survive in the wild...with zero dollars lol.

It's like the spray bottle vs the misters, some would rather use a $2 spray bottle rather than a mister that costs $1000 - nothing to do with how much you spend...


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## Dipcdame (Oct 8, 2010)

Rather than a debate between those who are for, and those against thermostats, I believe this is more of the old school versus the new school ways of thinking. 
Those who are comfortable not using thermostats are usually the ones who.... NOT being cheapsates and not using thermos, they rather, are of the thinking that when a reptile needs to get warm, it will, in it's own good time, and for as long as it wants to................. not when a light flicks on and off.
Then there are those who beleive that nature has no idea of looking after herself, and needs our technological interference, to obliterate anything that might be natural happening!

This is an observation, not a debate.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 8, 2010)

very true we just need to give them a nice warm spot that wont burn them and the rest of the enclosure can be quite cool and they will do the rest


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## Camo (Oct 8, 2010)

TigerCoastal said:


> camo why do you think this has anything at all with cost? i have 5 enclosures running the ATC-210 so i dont think that i have gone "cheap" in my choice of thermostats, but that wont change the fact that i have 4 kids (and their friends that visit) that like to press buttons on things....and i dont have a "spare" room to put my snakes in so am looking for a method that cant be tampered with, other than turned off.


:lol: My dad use to tell me look but dont touch :lol:

If i touched it usually ended with a sore behind :lol:


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## Camo (Oct 8, 2010)

ZOOJAS said:


> all the warning alarms in the the world arnt goin to do much good if no one is home .


Dont forget the cut off.


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## Camo (Oct 8, 2010)

cris said:


> This arguement gets used often by many. To say you have to spend lots of money to keep reptiles as well if not better than those that are rich and buy all the high tech overpriced useless stuff is BSIMO. It simply comes down to providing what is required, IMO this rarely has much to do with money. A bit of thinking and maybe a little extra effort is worth more that heaps of money.
> 
> You can buy a poorly deisgned enclosure decked out with heaps of equipment that isnt needed and usually overpriced, yet have a really bad setup or at the other end of the scale you could use a plastic tub and a heat cord and spend less then $50 and still provide a setup as good as or better than one that costs $1000 or more. There are obviously plenty of setups that are in between, but money isnt as important as many think.


There is a saying i say

If you cant afford the vets, then dont buy the pets.

I think the same should apply when it comes to most things. Now i am not saying that if you just run a spot light and thats it that you are a bad person or worse than the person that buys the full blown thermostat setup. This simply is not the case.

Trust me mate i see it everyday dealing with retail. People assume you are there to rip them off becasue they cant see past the fact that it might cost over $100 for a particular item. They are the ones that usually return to buy what you firstly suggested to them. I know a heap of successful breeders that just run a spot light with no night time heat or thermostats. If it works for you then dont change it.

How many new threads do you see on here "HELP MY PYTHON HAS A BURN" only for us to ask did you have a cage and for them to say no i did not want to spend $40 on some wire. 

If anyone has seen any new packaging for URS heat mats they now say on them "MUST BE USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH A THERMOSTAT". Is this simply a new sales tactic? Possibly, or is it a case of they are thinking of the animal.

Cameron


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## TigerCoastal (Oct 8, 2010)

Camo said:


> If anyone has seen any new packaging for URS heat mats they now say on them "MUST BE USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH A THERMOSTAT". Is this simply a new sales tactic? Possibly, or is it a case of they are thinking of the animal.
> 
> Cameron


 
No they are thinking of the legallities.... as mentioned before if used in the wrong way they create a fire hazard, its a way for them to cover their A S S, if you dont use a thermostat you havnt followed manufacturers directions so they cant be held responsible if there is a fire....But back ON TOPIC....


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## cris (Oct 8, 2010)

Camo said:


> There is a saying i say
> 
> If you cant afford the vets, then dont buy the pets.


 
So you have well over $100 000 per animal for complex ongoing treatment? I have acturally spent lots of money on one of my goannas, the problems were pretty minor and i only took it to a vet because i thought they may be helpfull, close to $1000 spent and no diagnosis or treatment, i suspect it was an allergy from the substrate i was using. To be honest i wouldnt spend a cent on vet bills for my fish unless i knew i would get some worthy help and i wouldnt even take out a home loan to get my last dog kemo and complex surgery to drag out his death. Im an evil monster though, i buy farmed meat from the supermarket and wouldnt consider taking my feeder rats to a vet.

Also on the subject of burns, i have never heard of a snake being burnt in a setup that doesnt rely on a thermostat, Im not saying its never happened but thermostats and high wattage heat are the only cause i have ever heard of.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm not saying that a no thermostat method is foolproof, it can be just as dangerous as everything else if used wrongly. In reality it is just as difficult to get the right set up in the first place but you can forget about it after its sorted.


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## cockney red (Oct 9, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> I'm not saying that a no thermostat method is foolproof, it can be just as dangerous as everything else if used wrongly. In reality it is just as difficult to get the right set up in the first place but you can forget about it after its sorted.


 
Use a temp gun to set up and as JPN says, Its Idiot proof


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## Blondie84 (Oct 9, 2010)

My enclosure (the Taj Mahal as I call it as my dad went a little nuts with it) is 1200x600x600 made of MDF on all sides except the front which is perspex. I just use an infrared red globe and leave it on 24/7. The cool end is usually around 22 degrees, the hot end, right under the globe is about 32-33 degrees and the middle is around 26-28 degrees. 
I have a small vent at the top of the each end wall but had to cover up one i had as I was losing too much humidity. In the warmer months I use a 100W globe and in the cooler months I have been using a 150W globe. 
As you can see I have lots of little hidey spots but my girl's fave has been either in the tissue box which is under the globe or on top of it while she was in pre-shed.


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## cockney red (Oct 9, 2010)

Yearling Olives...Hot end gives 35 on slate, under 100w emitter, on a timer 2400X600X600 

Diamond In garage has hot spot under 60w bulb of 28-30 on a timer


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## Foxthor (Apr 8, 2011)

I am using a 150W atm but my temp gets up to 41 in the hot spot, the rest of the cage doesnt get hot though. Is 41 too hot for the hottest spot?


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## Red-Ink (Apr 8, 2011)

Foxthor said:


> I am using a 150W atm but my temp gets up to 41 in the hot spot, the rest of the cage doesnt get hot though. Is 41 too hot for the hottest spot?


 
Depends on what you have in there??


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## Foxthor (Apr 9, 2011)

A stimsons Python


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## Defective (Apr 9, 2011)

yodas enclosure...no thermostat

- 3x2x2ft
- ceramic light fitting with el cheapo light from woolies for basking light
- room temp is 22.8, hot end 35.6, cool end 25, basking 38
- UV fluro tube runs through the middle of the enclosure
- substrate is URS red desert sand
- water at cool end
- iron ore quarry rock at hot end

anything else?


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## mje772003 (Apr 9, 2011)

Tiger another factor with temperatures is your locality tell us what part of the country your from as this could help?


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## JAS101 (Apr 9, 2011)

Foxthor said:


> I am using a 150W atm but my temp gets up to 41 in the hot spot, the rest of the cage doesnt get hot though. Is 41 too hot for the hottest spot?


 then reduce the globe wattage


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Apr 9, 2011)

Foxthor said:


> A stimsons Python


 It will be ok as long as the snake can move away from the heat to a cooler part. But ideally I would reduce the wattage of the bulb to save on power.


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## nonamesleft (Apr 9, 2011)

This is my 3 bank, has no need for a thermostat. Works very well, the heat side is a heat board i made up with a heat cord. The cool side has a backing made from cork board. The heat boards surface get to around 37, which is no problem as the snake can always retreat to the cool side.

Mind the dull background on the heat side, will replace with white melamine one day ;-)..Still does the job


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