# Ceramic heater too hot?? Burning roof.



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 18, 2012)

I'll post some photo's later tonight.

I have 5ft white melamine enclosure.

A ceramic heat light, 200W on a pulse proportional thermostat and a UVB light.
Been on for around 1.5 years.

I noticed last night the there are stains on the roof, on closer inspection, they are burns.
On even closer expection (with my head in the tank) I noticed the power cable is also discolured and looking old and worn, I'll be fixing it on the weekend. Though it can only be temporary as the same thing will eventually happen.

The cable comes thru the back wall and runs along the roof, not thru the roof.
The light fitting is fitted directly on the roof.

Like I said, I'll take some photo's and post tonight... though it wont be till later.
I can't be the only one with this problem or that's had this problem...


----------



## Snowman (Apr 18, 2012)

Those cables arent made for that kind of heat. This is why DIY is dangerous. Just because it works does not make it right... I always use a v100 rated cable with fibreglass sleaving. The amount of people who use normal extension cord (usually v50) for wiring up heat light fittings is just scary.

Also bit of thin fibre cement sheeting works well as a heat buffer between the ceramic holder and the melamine. Scraps everywhere on building sites.


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Well I asked the people at the electrical shop, and they said it'll work fine.
I had a technitian look at it and he said that it was good.
I explained what it's used for and how I propose to set it up, and they recomended this cable.
Unsure what it is... it's just a 2 core cable.

The cement sheeting, wont that burn anyway?


----------



## Snowman (Apr 18, 2012)

The people at the electrical shop probably arent sparkies. Why would you work retail if you can make $150k in a trade? Selling products has nothing to do with installing them.
What would a technician know about cable selection and installation? 
OMG!  
Why would you use a licensed electrician? It sounds as stupid as buying reptiles under license...... :shock:

Cement sheet doesnt burn. 

"Under the Building Code of Australia BGC Compressed​*Fibre Cement sheeting is deemed to be non-combustible*.
When tested in accordance with Australian Standard AS1530.3 the Early Fire Hazard Indices are as follows:
Ignitability Index 0
Spread of Flame Index 0
Heat Evolved Index 0​Smoke Developed Index 0 – 1"


----------



## Ramsayi (Apr 18, 2012)

For all wiring inside enclosures I use high temp glass cable that is rated up to 450c,its the stuff they use in ovens etc.At the back of each enclosure I have junction boxes where the high temp wire is then connected to 3 core flex,above each heat/light fitting is a sheet of 4.5mm fibre cement.


----------



## Snowman (Apr 18, 2012)

Running a 200w lamp I'd consider using some fire rated flex like pyrolex (changed to alsecure now).

Nice work Ram's that is what I like to hear


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 18, 2012)

Ahhh, okie dokie...

I wouldn't have thought that it should go crappy...
It's only at say 40C at most not what I would call hot.

I'll get it all done by the weekend. Cheers guys.


----------



## Snowman (Apr 18, 2012)

Come on Josh! A 200w ceramic is not 40 degrees. There is no way you could touch it when it is on. It may give a surrounding temp of 40C, but the lamp holder and lamp would be way hotter...


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 18, 2012)

Hi Josh,
Mate why do you need a 200w ceramic heater for anyway. The surface temp on these things is enormous.
I did some temp checks on some of mine last winter, my temp gun only went to 3oo degrees c, The 100w ceramics surface temp got to more than that as the thermo gun ran out of range. So i can only imagine what a 200w one would get to. 
Just be very carefull what temps get to at the hottest piont. If you need more heat you should ask if your set up is right, even though you are running a thermostat, the surface temp will get extremly hot when operating to the piont where you could cook a chook on it.

I hope this helps.
Cheers
Ian


----------



## Skeptic (Apr 18, 2012)

The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire......


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 18, 2012)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> Hi Josh,
> Mate why do you need a 200w ceramic heater for anyway. The surface temp on these things is enormous.
> I did some temp checks on some of mine last winter, my temp gun only went to 3oo degrees c, The 100w ceramics surface temp got to more than that as the thermo gun ran out of range. So i can only imagine what a 200w one would get to.
> Just be very carefull what temps get to at the hottest piont. If you need more heat you should ask if your set up is right, even though you are running a thermostat, the surface temp will get extremly hot when operating to the piont where you could cook a chook on it.
> ...




I figured if I got the bigger one, it wouldn't need to work as hard, therefore last longer.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 18, 2012)

[h=2]Heat source temperature findings[/h]











Here are my temperature findings on the heat sources in my snake enclosures.
Unfortunatly the thermal imaging camera maxed out at 130 degrees c. this is due to that it is used mainly for bearing or motor overtemp findings which normally do not get that high.

But it did confirm the readings on my infrared thermometer which maxs out at 300 degrees c. I have no reason to doubt Carpet pythons previous findings of 150 watt emitters surface temp getting to 600 degrees c. For my findings I will refer to as 300 degrees c +

These temps are also taken on a cold day with ambient temperature of only 16 degrees c & a normal day of 30 to 40 degrees would see these temps raised somewhat.

75 watt heat lamp - surface temp of bulb 170 degrees c
- dome cage top mounted surround 48 degrees c

100 watt heat lamp - surface temp of bulb 220 degrees c
- aluminium surround 37 degrees c

100 watt ceramic heat emitter - surface temp 300+ degrees c
- aluminium surround temp 40 degrees c

100 watt ceramic heat emitter - large steel surround 35 degrees c

150 watt ceramic heat emmitter - surface temp 300+ degrees c
- aluminium surround temp 50 degrees c
- small steel surround temps 55 degrees c

These temps are the maximum temps found on the day of test.

As you can see by covering heat sources, you are much less likely to cause accidental burning to snakes or ourselves & much less likly to cause melting or fire due to combustable items comming into contact with extreme hot surfaces.

Hope this is of good information to you all.
If I can get a better infrared thermometer I will get better surface temps & let you know.

This info has already enlightened myself to the extreme heat that these sources can give off.

Cheers
Ian​


----------



## thomasssss (Apr 18, 2012)

Snowman said:


> Cement sheet doesnt burn.
> 
> "Under the Building Code of Australia BGC Compressed​*Fibre Cement sheeting is deemed to be non-combustible*.
> When tested in accordance with Australian Standard AS1530.3 the Early Fire Hazard Indices are as follows:
> ...


so where can i buy some of this cement sheet ? im in the process of making an enclosure and although ill be using a much lower wattage globe it will be inside the enclosure hidden in one of those fake roof sorta set ups people on here make so i think i should use some of this stuff for a bit of heat protection around the holder , im using one of those urs ceramic holders that screw together and come all prewired 

sorry to hijack your thread josh but just didn't want to start another one about the exact same thing , hope you don't mind

if anyone could post a pic of how they've used this stuff in an enclosure that'd be great and how you fix it around the holder safely


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 18, 2012)

Hey josh I am sorry about the dust on my post, but i pulled it from a thread on another forum that i had purpose to participate in.
I can't remember if i posted it here or not, i was too lazy to look & even too lazy to edit the post properly.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Batanga (Apr 18, 2012)

Bunnings sells Cement sheeting.


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 18, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> so where can i buy some of this cement sheet ? im in the process of making an enclosure and although ill be using a much lower wattage globe it will be inside the enclosure hidden in one of those fake roof sorta set ups people on here make so i think i should use some of this stuff for a bit of heat protection around the holder , im using one of those urs ceramic holders that screw together and come all prewired
> 
> sorry to hijack your thread josh but just didn't want to start another one about the exact same thing , hope you don't mind
> 
> if anyone could post a pic of how they've used this stuff in an enclosure that'd be great and how you fix it around the holder safely



All good



MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> Hey josh I am sorry about the dust on my post, but i pulled it from a thread on another forum that i had purpose to participate in.
> I can't remember if i posted it here or not, i was too lazy to look & even too lazy to edit the post properly.
> 
> Cheers
> Ian



No that's handy to know.
Still hard to believe the air around it is getting so hot. I know the surface tmep would be very hot, but I couldn't see it being hot enough to slowly burn the melamine. I would of thought it would be far enough from the globe.

Ahhh well.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 18, 2012)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> All good
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mate as you know heat rises.
Cheers


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 18, 2012)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> Mate as you know heat rises.
> Cheers



I would of thought the size of the tank would of easily of had the heat dissapate along it.
Because I can touch the roof no worries.

It'll all be fixed shortly.
I'll also drop the ceramic heaters down to 100W


----------



## pharskie (Apr 19, 2012)

Personally I'd be investing into one of the urs floating fitting that is built into a cage. That way the heat is dispersed into the air not the wood it's attached to


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 19, 2012)

Meanwhile 

Here's some I prepared earlier.....











Works beautifully in this thing


----------



## CaptainRatbag (Apr 19, 2012)

Why not use a heat mat for the heating and a way smaller light just for basking and viewing? Is it for snakes or lizzards?


----------



## thomasssss (Apr 20, 2012)

Red-Ink said:


> Meanwhile
> 
> Here's some I prepared earlier.....


thanks for that red-ink how exactly have you secured it to the roof ? just screws or do you use some sort of glue as well thanks again thomas


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 20, 2012)

CaptainRatbag said:


> Why not use a heat mat for the heating and a way smaller light just for basking and viewing? Is it for snakes or lizzards?



Snakessss.
Well, the heater is on a Pulse prop thermostat, so lights wont liast long anyway.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 20, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> thanks for that red-ink how exactly have you secured it to the roof ? just screws or do you use some sort of glue as well thanks again thomas



Same screws that hold the light cages and light fittings in hold the cement board in place, all the wiring is also behind the cement board. I just dug out a groove at the back and used tape to hold the wires in place. That way the wires are insulated as well, looks "clean" and mounts flush against the wood.


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Apr 20, 2012)

230V 800W Hollow Yellow Ceramic Emittor | eBay

You think 200W is hot... imagine this baby.


----------



## moosenoose (Apr 20, 2012)

I use my ceramic heaters mounted directly onto 18mm MDF. Never had a drama with it. Seems to absorb the heat with no probs, and is near impossible to ignite (I've tried using an oxy torch and it is literally impossible to get going). I'd recommend the thicker MDF as another option.


----------



## raycam01_au (Apr 24, 2012)

hmmmmm

my electrical expert is a sparkie, and my plumbing expert is a licensed plumber, so not all retail people are fools  

sad

when peeps get general

but some good advice other than some of the hmmmmmmm posts


----------



## dragonlover1 (Apr 24, 2012)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> I'll post some photo's later tonight.
> 
> I have 5ft white melamine enclosure.
> 
> ...



do you really need 200w? most people only have 100-125w,as snowman says use better cable and insulation



JoshuaAtherton said:


> I figured if I got the bigger one, it wouldn't need to work as hard, therefore last longer.



that's just ridiculous,it wont work easier just because it's bigger,it will pump out 200w,you are lucky it didn't burn your house down



JoshuaAtherton said:


> All good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


remember that melamine is only plastic not good for heat stress


----------



## boxhead1990 (Apr 27, 2012)

this could be a great idea to sort the problem just cut a big enough hole and screw it in no more burning malamine 

i was just gunna buy a ready wired ser up and screw it to the top until simon at everything reptile recomended this (bloody legend)

cost me $55 and is well worth it imo


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## pharskie (Apr 27, 2012)

That's exactly that floating light fitting I was trying to explain to you. They are the best


----------



## Monitor Madness (Apr 27, 2012)

I've had a look at Bunnings for the fibre cemet sheeting and the stuff I found that looked similar was called villaboard. Does anyone know if this is the same stuff?


----------



## davies.ads (Apr 27, 2012)

Villa board is pretty good with withstanding heat. I used it to shield my timber frame in my bathroom when I had to solder pipe work. Could easily handle 20-30 second bursts with a butane torch. Didn't even really burn it.


----------



## boxhead1990 (Apr 28, 2012)

pharskie said:


> That's exactly that floating light fitting I was trying to explain to you. They are the best



yeah the guy at everything reptilerecomended that and said just drill a hole big enough for the power plug to go through so it can vent the excess heat from that area 

im setting up mine so it pushes te hot air out the top and draws in fresh air through the bottom vents

should work a treat 


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Apr 28, 2012)

As a rule of thumb, you should only use a heat source of the MINIMUM wattage required to do the job. Building in a "safety margin" so the unit doesn't work so hard is asking for big trouble. If your thermostat fails (as they OFTEN do), a bigger than necessary heating unit will cause a very rapid elevation in temps, with dire consequences for your animals (first)... the enclosure (second)... your house (eventually, if you're not home)...

Radiant heat from these devices seems mild, but the buildup over time can be massive. I've seen tables burnt to charcoal from even 7w heat mats that were installed without the appropriate ventilation, Most particleboards have some sort of fire retardant qualities, but exposed to a constant high heat source, they will begin to smoulder and produce very toxic smoke. Once the particleboard or MDF has disintegrated above the fitting, it will drop from the top of the cage and who knows what it will heat next. But by then your animal/s will be very dead from smoke inhalation or heat stress.

Always remember that too much heat will kill your animals in minutes, but being too cool gives you weeks or months to sort things out.

Jamie

Villaboard or Hardiflex are probably the commonest fibrecement brands, and both are readily available and very cheap.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 28, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> As a rule of thumb, you should only use a heat source of the MINIMUM wattage required to do the job. Building in a "safety margin" so the unit doesn't work so hard is asking for big trouble. If your thermostat fails (as they OFTEN do), a bigger than necessary heating unit will cause a very rapid elevation in temps, with dire consequences for your animals (first)... the enclosure (second)... your house (eventually, if you're not home)...
> 
> Radiant heat from these devices seems mild, but the buildup over time can be massive. I've seen tables burnt to charcoal from even 7w heat mats that were installed without the appropriate ventilation, Most particleboards have some sort of fire retardant qualities, but exposed to a constant high heat source, they will begin to smoulder and produce very toxic smoke. Once the particleboard or MDF has disintegrated above the fitting, it will drop from the top of the cage and who knows what it will heat next. But by then your animal/s will be very dead from smoke inhalation or heat stress.
> 
> ...



Mate without trying to be naughty & just kind, This is one of the smartest things i have seen you say.LOL. All in good taste & spot on.

Cheers
Ian


----------

