# Cross bred



## scotchbo (May 22, 2006)

Hey all im just after some opinions on cross bred pythons mainly coastals and diamonds crossed together im after some pro's and con's on the matter


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## Jason (May 22, 2006)

pro's- i dont think there are any
con's- they dont sell to well and they are illegal to cross.

at the end of the day you can do it i like locality specific or close to it, but others are more open minded and dont see a problem with it at all.


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## jack (May 22, 2006)

illegal to cross? ....


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## nervous (May 22, 2006)

since when have they been illegal to cross?


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## waruikazi (May 22, 2006)

as far as i know it's only ilegal in Qld, all other states are fine... I think.


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## scotchbo (May 22, 2006)

i doubt it would be illegal to cross them but ive just researched it and cant find any problems so far


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## Kersten (May 22, 2006)

If you have a look back through the old threads here you'll find a fair few lengthy discussions on the subject.


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## nervous (May 22, 2006)

yeh i heard its only in queensland aswell but its fine for other i.e N.S.W


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## Kersten (May 22, 2006)

Oh....doubt it not Scotchbo, in QLD at least it's very much illegal.


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## scotchbo (May 22, 2006)

oh ok i find that funny thats all like they wouldnt stop 2 species of cat or dog breed but i know i know reptile's are different but does anyone know of any problems they have or anythin bad bout them,


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## pugsly (May 22, 2006)

Popcorn going into the Microwave again, Daz what ya drinking tonight! Got a strong bundy for AL too..


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## NoOne (May 22, 2006)

Don't bother with the popcorn pugsly, you can only watch the same thing so many times lol.


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## pugsly (May 22, 2006)

> Don't bother with the popcorn pugsly, you can only watch the same thing so many times lol



Very true.. why do we even have a search button..

My God we agreed on something!


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## NoOne (May 22, 2006)

yep we agreed, sky will probably fall in now.


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## pugsly (May 22, 2006)

LOL well its changed colour already..


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## reptilemart (May 22, 2006)

scotchbo, this forum has dealt with this issue numerous times and in the end it always ends up the same. Some like it, some don't. The only thing for you to do is figure out which side of the fence you want to be on. If you're asking this question because you're interested in the hybrid/intergrade/cross in the for sale section, then if you like the snake enough go for it. Personally I refuse to look at that snake again.... otherwise I'll buy it!!


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## Kersten (May 22, 2006)

pugsly said:


> Very true.. why do we even have a search button..


Wondered the same thing myself....

What's really funny is that we'll all think the topic is dead, go to bed, or work, or whatever and then come back to find that it's taken off and where there were 14 posts, there'll be 94....or so (I'm hoping to be proved wrong, not holding my breath though :wink: )

I wonder if they'll work hybridising, exotics, keeping with no permit, WC snakes in states where it's illegal, feeding live food, morphs, making money out of selling animals and whether or not herps are happy in captivity into one giant thread. It'd be an internet forum version of cage wrestling....we could sell tickets...and raise money to fund the purchase of all the live fed, illegal, exotic hybrid morphs we can lay our greedy money grubbing hands on.


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## junglemad (May 22, 2006)

keep it pure.


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## cris (May 22, 2006)

> Oh....doubt it not Scotchbo, in QLD at least it's very much illegal.


I wouldnt say its very much illegal the way the law is you would have to go out of your way to get yourself in trouble, you can just say it was an "accident" and it would be virtually impossible for them to prosecute you.

IMO if you like them get one, just make sure its recorded as what it really is so it cant be confused with a port macquarie carpet. 

cons
- Some ppl would probably hold it against you(the main reason i would probably never buy one).
- Could possibly become an intergrade if someone wants to sell it for more money.

Pros
- it costs a little less money.


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## Reptile City (May 22, 2006)

Cross breeding is illegal in SA!
Thats what NPWL told me.
They also told me they will not allow import permits for permit holders to bring in cross breed reptiles in to SA.
They mentioned about a crack down on this illegal practice soon!
Cheers,
Jason Lapins


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## hugsta (May 23, 2006)

Doesn't the licence system in QLD only have done a couple of morelia sp. I was led to believe that they don't have as an extensive list of morelia as we do in NSW, so it easy for someone to bring in and breed with say a diamond cross coastal or integrade so it would be very hard to prove.

In NSW you can cross anything with anything, it is not liked by NPWS but they will acknowledge any crosses and will give them their own species classification and number, so you could quite happily cross a hypermelanistic darwin with an albino olive if you like. ;-)  , or at least try. :lol:


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## TrueBlue (May 23, 2006)

cris, i know of a couple of cases where QPWS found out that animals had been crossed,(in one case stimsoni x childreni), and the animals were confiscated. even thou it was accidental.


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## Kersten (May 23, 2006)

That's right Blue, they do take an interest and they do take action if they deem it to be an issue.

Either way though Cris, even if it isn't regularly enforced (and in fact it is....when they can catch the people involved) that doesn't make it any less a law.


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Is someone hogging the popcorn up that end, pass it down here


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## TrueBlue (May 23, 2006)

yes, so all you mongrel breeders in QLD, QPWS are whatching you.!!


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## Kersten (May 23, 2006)

Sorry Boa, that was me


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

I agree, they most likely are, they are probably keeping a close eye on lots of people for various reasons. :lol: 



TrueBlue said:


> yes, so all you mongrel breeders in QLD, QPWS are whatching you.!!


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Well get it down here, I'm hungry. :lol: 



Kersten said:


> Sorry Boa, that was me


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## raptor (May 23, 2006)

Its illegal in Victoria as well


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Are you saying it's illegal to breed them or sell them ? I know it isn't illegal to sell them down there or at least no-one seems to care if it is.


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## Magpie (May 23, 2006)

You mean i'm not allowed to cross my ackies with my water python?
Damnit! Anyone want some cheap ackies?


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Put me down for a couple of Wackies Magpie


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## chilli (May 23, 2006)

*cross breeding*



Kersten said:


> Oh....doubt it not Scotchbo, in QLD at least it's very much illegal.



diamonds and carpets are the same species so i don't think it is illegal in queensland, and as for the pro's, you can end up with nicer looking specimens from experimenting with crossing subspecies and morphs......for example, that is how the beautiful jaguars were developed.


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

I half agree, you certainly can produce beautiful snakes but Jags were produced from coastals.


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## kwaka_80 (May 23, 2006)

how could breeding animals be illegal?? whos there to regulate it??


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## steve6610 (May 23, 2006)

pass me the pop corn boa, but please make sure it was poped in a way so no harm was caused to the corn.......


cheers,
steve.........


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## chilli (May 23, 2006)

the varieties of jags have been developed by crossing different morphs, albeit from the same lineage, sorry just using them as an example to demonstrate that aesthetic qualities can be worked on to produce something desirable.......i pose the question, can anyone tell by looking at a super-hypo jag, what its ancestors' original locale was????? i notice on another thread that there's a struggle with A.stimsoni, so if there are no identifiable features and one from nsw, qld , nt may all look the same, why does everybody have so much passion about it all???? it is possible that they are all the same, and the locale, say mt isa, may really be half of the country. imo there is no problem with breeding hybrids or in this case, diamond and carpets, not a hybrid as they are conspecific, so long as they are not a species for which a breeding management programme is necessary due to rarity status


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## steve6610 (May 23, 2006)

i even heard the other day that rabbits are illegal in qld, pmsl.......

we really sux on some matters..............

cheers,
steve..............


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

I only use a corn popping machine approved by the World Wide Fund for Nature and the RSPCA. 



steve6610 said:


> pass me the pop corn boa, but please make sure it was poped in a way so no harm was caused to the corn.......
> 
> 
> cheers,
> steve.........


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Now come on think about it, if people could keep rabbits as pets imagine if they got out and starting breeding in the wild, we would have wild rabbits up here, we have been able to keep rabbits out of Queensland because of this law.



steve6610 said:


> i even heard the other day that rabbits are illegal in qld, pmsl.......
> 
> we really sux on some matters..............
> 
> ...


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## ad (May 23, 2006)

Scotchbo is asking the pros & cons of cross breeding a diamond to a coastal.
How you can compare generations of jag development to this breeding project is rather amusing.

Scotchbo,
These pythons have been bred together numerous times and do not produce spectacular offspring. 
Cheers
Ad


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## waruikazi (May 23, 2006)

boa said:


> Now come on think about it, if people could keep rabbits as pets imagine if they got out and starting breeding in the wild, we would have wild rabbits up here, we have been able to keep rabbits out of Queensland because of this law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually Boa i have to disagree with you there, we don't have rabbits in the NT either but i think it is becasue of the heat up here because we are allowed to keep rabbits.


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

I was of course joking, stopping people having rabbits is crazy as they are very common in the wild. And making them illegal has been about as effective as it has with other 'exotics' The rabbit is apparently the most commonly kept exotic species in Queensland.
Is it true you don't have rabbits where you are ? I assume you mean Darwin as rabbits in Northern Territory generally are a huge problem.



waruikazi said:


> Actually Boa i have to disagree with you there, we don't have rabbits in the NT either but i think it is becasue of the heat up here because we are allowed to keep rabbits.


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## waruikazi (May 23, 2006)

Well yeah the far northern regions, I've only ever seen one hopping around someones backyard. I was gonna get it wth my shangai and have rabbit stew :twisted: But then i saw i little girl playing with it  

I guess it must be the high humidity, ticks and all the other predators that keep them away.


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## waruikazi (May 23, 2006)

It is a shame really, because there is nothing for my dog to rip to pieces LOL


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## TrueBlue (May 23, 2006)

chilli, diamonds and carpets are sub-species and are illegal to breed together in QLD.


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

The QLD rules also specifically dont allow for the breeding mutations which includes albinos, melanistic snakes or any snake with a genetic 'abnormality'. 
Mutation : The process by which such a sudden structural change occurs, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome. 
So no albinos either.


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## Greebo (May 23, 2006)

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12551&highlight=crossbred

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3507&highlight=crossbred

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16483&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16074&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=15772&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=13635&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=13375&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12551&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=9568&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=9065&highlight=hybrids

http://aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=8487&highlight=hybrids


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Too much free time ?


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## Greebo (May 23, 2006)

I guess so. It took me almost 2 minutes to find all those links.


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## Glimmerman (May 23, 2006)

Sorry guys, One thing I have learnt from this thread....... I'm staying in NSW. :wink:


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Yeah you can keep your import export permits and weather


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## Glimmerman (May 23, 2006)

I think an import / export is a fair deal for my hypos, integrades and hybrids. I've only ever needed one, so far. Besides, if I moved to QLD I would have to go somewhere else for a holiday.

And the weather's not that bad. It snowed in the Blue Mountains last night. :?


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## Retic (May 23, 2006)

Nah loads of people up here have all those, besides I don't think hypos are too much of a problem. 
SNOW !!! :shock: I saw something similar when I was getting the ice cream out the freezer I think. :lol:


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## da_donkey (May 23, 2006)

I havnt been on APS for 3 mnths.......not much has changed...LOL


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## steve6610 (May 23, 2006)

hi glimmerman,
snow?????????? whats snow, 

cheers,
steve...............


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## AntaresiaLady (May 24, 2006)

Sorry Pugs...I got kept away...chuck us that bundy  

Crikey...all this controversy sure is exciting!!


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## Hickson (May 24, 2006)

boa said:


> The QLD rules also specifically dont allow for the breeding mutations which includes albinos, melanistic snakes or any snake with a genetic 'abnormality'.



So no albino Darwins or Olives for you!

And Rabbits were banned in NSW in the 70's as pets. They were considered a noxious pest.



Hix


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## Nagraj (May 24, 2006)

waruikazi said:


> ... we don't have rabbits in the NT either but i think it is becasue of the heat up here because we are allowed to keep rabbits.




There are certainly rabbits aplenty in the NT but you're correct in that there are none in the far north. Pet rabbits are fairly common in Darwin but they only tend to live for a couple of years as they don't handle the humidity very well. Incidentally, there are no foxes this far north either.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

Yes it would appear that breeding albinos is also illegal up here. I had better cancel the order for the pair of Olives  



Hix said:


> boa said:
> 
> 
> > The QLD rules also specifically dont allow for the breeding mutations which includes albinos, melanistic snakes or any snake with a genetic 'abnormality'.
> ...


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## Nagraj (May 24, 2006)

The problems with cross-breeding as I see it are:
1. There are plenty of unscrupulous people who will sell there failed experiments as purebreds.
2. There can easily be inadvertant contamination of a purebred line.
3. The contamination could easily end up in the wild population, which is by the far greatest danger IMO.


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## ad (May 24, 2006)

> Yes it would appear that breeding albinos is also illegal up here. I had better cancel the order for the pair of Olives


I wonder how many Darwin Albino owners are kicking themselves, well the people who didnt check first on the legislation. Nice pets though for the law abiding ones.
It clearly states no hybrids too. hmmm
How will that affect the whole 'designer' snake revolution that is so important to some.


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## Reptilegirl (May 24, 2006)

> And Rabbits were banned in NSW in the 70's as pets. They were considered a noxious pest.



are you serious? well someone forgot to tell my local petshop.. 
Megz


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

:lol: :lol: Well I would bet that NO owners of either albino Darwins or albino Olives will be kicking themselves. It is perfectly legal to breed albinos in Queensland as I found out.
Even if it wasn't legal it wouldn't have made any difference to most people I would imagine. It's illegal to take animals from the wild but people still do it, lots of people don't follow the rules or bend them when it suits. 
I actually myself try to do the right thing, when I found I had to get another license for more than 2 Womas I got the license.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

It has been legal since 1995 in NSW to keep more than 2 rabbits.



Reptilegirl said:


> > And Rabbits were banned in NSW in the 70's as pets. They were considered a noxious pest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TrueBlue (May 24, 2006)

breeding mongrels is alot differnt to breeding morphs, and with our licence being the same for birds and reptiles in QLD,(class E), there is no way that they could stop you breeding morphs, as the bird hobby is full of them, if they tried to stop it, it would get laughed out of court.
Breeding mongerls is a totally different ball game thou and i for one agree with the department on that one.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

I guess it all comes down to personal preference, we all like different things and to be honest a bit of legislation wont change what people do. I have no specific plans to breed hybrids, I'm not saying I wont but I have no plans to. I have been up front and open about being a fan though and I can't imagine suddenly changing those views publicly or otherwise. 
Morphs are definitely the future and that can be seen in the fact that 'normal' looking snakes are getting harder to sell. Just look at how hypo Bredls sell when compared to normals or Blond Macs against 'normals'.


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## ad (May 24, 2006)

boa said:


> The QLD rules also specifically dont allow for the breeding mutations which includes albinos, melanistic snakes or any snake with a genetic 'abnormality'.
> Mutation : The process by which such a sudden structural change occurs, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome.
> So no albinos either.





> It is perfectly legal to breed albinos in Queensland.



A lot changes in a day. Good to see you are posting good advice.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

:lol: I agree, it was definitely worth posting the updated information. By the way you put a full stop where there wasn't one in your 'quote'.


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

hi,
i'm sorry but trueblue you are wrong and so is everybody else that thinks they can legally breed mutations in qld, i agree that birds and reptiles are on the same licence, 

this is a quote from our GUIDELINES for keeping reptiles and birds in qld, 

"a person who holds a recreational wildlife licence may breed animals under the licence. it is usually an offence to knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal; however, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence may breed a mutation, but not a hybrid of the following:
a controlled bird;
a commercial bird;
a recreational bird.
the holder must not breed a MUTATION or HYBRID of a RESTRICTED BIRD or of ANY SPECIES OF REPTILE OR AMPHIBIAN,"
end of quote...........

this was copied straight word for word from our guidelines for keeping in qld, so as you can read it's illegal to breed for mutations and hybrids in qld, 
unless of cause i'm wrong in thinking that an albino is a mutation,

the reason i know all this is because after coping heaps of flack here about breeding my intergrade to my coastal and a lot of members saying i bred a hybrid i went to my local epa office and asked for the laws on it, this was the law i was told to read.............


to my knowedge these guidelines are still legal and haven't been changed..

maybe all qld keepers should get out their guidelines and have a read as there are a few other laws that can be inforced if the epa want to, 

cheers,
steve.........


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## apalme08 (May 24, 2006)

yo scotchbo 
i have a carpet diamond cross and in my (limited) experience:

PROS - beautiful temperament, very placid and friendly. (someone who was selling one in the "for sale" forum recently said the same of his, quote "you could beat it round the head and it wouldn't bite you". mine's the same.)

CONS - hard to tell whether the carpet or diamond is dominant in the intergrade, so do you treat it as a carpet or a diamond?? not a whole lot of info in books on this particular intergrade. all my info has come from the reptile gurus on this site!!

hope that helps some....??

i like a good mongrel snake


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## apalme08 (May 24, 2006)

and i'm from Victoria. you can breed anything down here, just look at the Labour Party ha ha


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## ad (May 24, 2006)

boa said:


> I agree, it was definitely worth posting the updated information..



So where did this updated information come from Boa?

Guidelines on the epa website confirm Steve's view.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

Steve, yes I know what you are saying. After giving that very same advice I thought I would check my information which was good as I was congratulated for my efforts which was nice  
Anyway following a conversation with the EPA this morning I was told categorically that it is NOT illegal to breed albinos in Queensland because although they are classed as a mutation they are a naturally occuring colour form that doesn't rely on line breeding to create. 
So Steve you are indeed right but wrong at the same time but it is through no fault of your own, the rules are obviously open to interpretation and this is how they see fit to interpret them.
I guess I can get the pair of Olives after all :lol:


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

I guess we had better hope the updated info is correct or Rob has some nice white pets.


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

hi boa,
thats interesting because i was told they are still a mutation, this was about 2 months ago, so i guess it's all up to the individual you talk to, the same as my so called hybrids, because my intergrade is classed as a coastals i can legally breed her to my coastals, but her babies can still be classed as a hybrid, the same as an albino will always be a mutation, 

the question i'm interested in getting answered is this, what is classed as a mutation if an albino isn't? what about striped coastals, or the hypo coastals and bredli's that are getting bred? 
this is why qld laws are so hard to follow, 

it seems to me that people read the rules to suit themselves, ( myself included ) it's ok to call a hybrid a mongrel and say that everybody that breeds them is doing it illegally but then say it's ok to breed albino's or other mutations, 

cheers,
steve...............


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

and just to add, you said they said that you don't have to line breed to get albino's, thats wrong, you have to line breed albino's to get them, both parents must carry the albino gen to produce albino's so this is line breeding in my opinion, i might be wrong..........

cheers,
steve...........


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## soulweaver (May 24, 2006)

i am going to go out on a limb here, proably start a fight but here goes. \

1. varigata in victoria means the species can be crossed, and it is not illegal, cos you haven't crossed anything.

2. anyone who thinks that morphs/crosses arn't going to happen then they are kidding themselves. Everyday we move closer to overseas reptile markets, and it will happen, disagree or agree i don't care but it is the truth.

3. might be 15 years away, but eventually the import and export in and out of Australia will open up. The diseases we try to keep out are already here, as well with most of the animals. 

4. Albinos are in ppls collections, who here honestly thinks that these ppl arn't crossing to get the gene in other species?

like i said proably start a fight, but its the truth, like it or not.


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## TrueBlue (May 24, 2006)

The point i was trying to make is, sure QPWS may not want us to breed mutations, but if they are naturally occuring they dont have a leg to stand on, it would be laughed out of court.
But breeding mongrels, ( definitely not naturally occuring), on the other hand is looked upon as being irresponsible, and i agree.
Steve, have you told them that youve breed a clutch of horrible mongerls.?


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

agree with everything you just said soulweaver, so that means you will most likely start a fight as most everything i think or say starts one, pmsl.............


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

to answer your question, yes rob, did you miss the point i said above,

i'll say it again,

"because my intergrade is classed as a coastal on my licence i can legally breed her to my coastal, " 

but after talks with the epa it was pointed out to me the rules i have wrote above and was advised it would be best not to do it again, so yes rob i have talked to them and no rob i won't be doing it again as advised by the epa..........

this is my point, the laws are so muddy that it all depends on who you talk to as to the answer you get, i was also advised that if you make to much money from your reptiles you are breaking the qld laws on keeping reptiles........

have you asked them about breeding your albinos rob? or asked them how much money you can make before having to get a commerical licence?

cheers,
steve..........


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

The only ones I saw that Steve bred were very nice indeed, he must have flushed the horrible ones down the toilet :lol: :lol: 



TrueBlue said:


> Steve, have you told them that youve breed a clutch of horrible mongerls.?


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

I agree as well and don't worry if it starts a fight, it livens the day up no end. :lol: 
These snakes are the future and the view of some individuals really wont alter that fact. 



steve6610 said:


> agree with everything you just said soulweaver, so that means you will most likely start a fight as most everything i think or say starts one, pmsl.............


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

and rob what your saying above is it's illegal to breed albino's but because you say it will be laughed out of court then it's ok to break the law, but because you don't like hybrids your saying it's irresponsible, 

bit like bending the rules to suit yourself isn't it rob, 

and just so you understand rob, yes i did do the wrong thing, yes i told epa, yes i got told it was wrong, yes i was told not to do it again, yes i won't be doing it again, 
now i'm admiting i did wrong, 
are you going to admit your also wrong?


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## TrueBlue (May 24, 2006)

all hybrids are horrible IMO, just cause they look nice dosent make them less horrible in my eyes.
steve, your mongrel may be on a coastal permit but as QPWS have told you, since its not pure it is illegal to breed it in QLD because it is a mongrel.
This is not our main sorce of income as my partner is a career person so this to us is only a hobby and there for need no other licence.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

Rob, I think Steve makes a very valid point and one that is very hard to argue with, if it turns out that it is in fact illegal to breed albinos then you will be breaking the law, whether you agree with their interpretation of the law is beside the point. You can't really criticise one person for doing what could be in the eyes of the law exactly what you plan on doing.


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## ad (May 24, 2006)

> and just so you understand rob, yes i did do the wrong thing, yes i told epa, yes i got told it was wrong, yes i was told not to do it again, yes i won't be doing it again,
> now i'm admiting i did wrong,
> are you going to admit your also wrong?



So you finally understand it is wrong to breed hybrids!!!! Hooray




> and rob what your saying above is it's illegal to breed albino's but because you say it will be laughed out of court then it's ok to break the law, but because you don't like hybrids your saying it's irresponsible,
> 
> bit like bending the rules to suit yourself isn't it rob,



It seems that mutations are open to interpretation - Hybrids certainly aren't.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

You sound like an ex smoker :lol: 



ad said:


> So you finally understand it is wrong to breed hybrids!!!! Hooray


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

hey adam,
at least i got the guts to admit it, more then i can say about other members here hey!!!!!!!!!!! 

you still think it is legal to breed albino's? 

funny how it's ok to bend the rules to suit yourself isn't it? 

and rob just because you have other jobs doesn't change the fact that if you make money from your snakes it's illegal, funny how you keep bending the rules to suit yourself all the time, 

cheers,
steve...........


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## TrueBlue (May 24, 2006)

No im am not admitting im wrong because there is no comparason,breeding a natural occurring morph is far different to breeding two different species or sub-species, which are not naturally occurring. The difference is massive. I have spoken to the dept a number of times over the years about this and their veiw seems to be that they dont want mutations to be bred in QLD, but when it boils down to it as long as they are naturally occuring there is little they could do if it went to court, breeding mongrels on the other hand would most definitely not be thrown out of court and the dept would win. Big difference, as yes IMO, the depts and most herps with morals towards our hobby do find breeding mongrels very irresponsible.


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## scotchbo (May 24, 2006)

how funny i started this thread cause i wasnt sure of how to search for the answers and everybody sort of boo'd me down sayin i should look for old thread's on the matter and 6 pages and 90 post's later it is still going lmao


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## ad (May 24, 2006)

> you still think it is legal to breed albino's?
> 
> funny how it's ok to bend the rules to suit yourself isn't it?





> Anyway following a conversation with the EPA this morning I was told categorically that it is NOT illegal to breed albinos in Queensland because although they are classed as a mutation they are a naturally occuring colour form that doesn't rely on line breeding to create.



Steve, it was Boa stating it is ok to breed albinoes, argue it with him.


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## TrueBlue (May 24, 2006)

Sorry steve but you havent got a clue, it is not illegal to make a few dollars out of herps. Infact a few years back QPWS told me that if it was my main income that they would look at issueing a farming permit, but it is not my main income and there for a hobby, and thanks to all the politions that breed birds etc a hobby is not classified as an income unless it is your main source of income.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

The EPA have given me wrong information before, like when I was told it was no longer necessary to have an additional license for more than 2 Womas when it turns out it actually is a legal requirement which law abiding keepers would obviously adhere to. So it is perfectly possible it is illegal to breed albinos and I am actually awaiting confirmation.


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## soulweaver (May 24, 2006)

i like snakes


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

As do we all, hopefully. :lol: 



soulweaver said:


> i like snakes


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## PimmsPythons (May 24, 2006)

i agree with true blue.the albinoism is a natural occuring morph,its just a change of colour to the purebred snake.if the are saying that albino breeding is illegal,then breeding hypos should be as well.then we'll have to count the number of spots on a maccy to breed with another one with the same amount of spots.and if it has a baby with a different amount of spots to the parents we'll have to kill it because its an evil mutant.and so on,and so on


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## PilbaraPythons (May 24, 2006)

Something to consider.
The guide lines and regulations do not all ways stand up in court. The act however does. 
As an example a friend of mine received reptiles from N.S.W with out the movement permit as required under the regulations. He was subsequently charged and faced court. He won the case however, because regardless of his obligations under the regulations his license had written on it that he was licenced to keep, bred, buy sell, import export. To my knowledge they no longer print all this on Queensland reptile licences.
Another point is that every single person who has ever transferred any reptile held under a Queensland licence is deemed to have sold it. In the act the word sold has the same meaning as give. Harsh but true.


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## Rennie (May 24, 2006)

So what would they say if I was to linebreed lots of two-headed albino rat snakes X corn snakes?


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## Kris (May 24, 2006)

Steve6610, if you sold any of your cross breeds, did you tell the buyers that they were not pure Coastals that they were purchasing? And after you found out it was illegal to breed your Diamond X Coastal, did you let the people know(if you sold them) that it would be illegal for them to breed from your snakes? Just curious what would happen.
Kris.


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## ad (May 24, 2006)

> Anyway following a conversation with the EPA this morning I was told categorically that it is NOT illegal to breed albinos in Queensland





> The EPA have given me wrong information before




What does categorically mean? hmmm
Boa your debate changes with the breeze.
It seems the debate is pointless anyway - you claim you dont intend breeding hybrids and steve claims he wont do it again.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

I will answer part of that, not on Steve's behalf as he is fully capable of answering himself but I do remember 
when the snakes were advertised it was made very clear exactly what they were, I missed out on them unfortunately as they were nice looking snakes.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

They would probably say you have the right to remain silent, if you give up that right we will beat you with rubber hoses etc etc.



Rennie said:


> So what would they say if I was to linebreed lots of two-headed albino rat snakes X corn snakes?


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

Being without exception or qualification; absolute.



ad said:


> What does categorically mean? hmmm


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

Unfortunately TrueBlue isn't the one that makes the rules, an albino is without doubt a mutation, naturally occuring or not, and it is against the rules of this State to knowingly breed mutations. It really makes no difference whether our interpretation of a mutation is different to that of the EPA, if they forbid it then that's it.
If they had only specifically mentioned it being illegal to breed hybrids then everything would be fine but they also mentioned mutations. 
I AM NOT saying it is right or wrong, I am just saying it is against the rules as stated. The aim is for us not to breed anything that isn't 'normal'.
I am still waiting for absolute confirmation as the categorical assurance I was given this morning may not be as categorical as I was told.



slimebo said:


> i agree with true blue.the albinoism is a natural occuring morph,its just a change of colour to the purebred snake.if the are saying that albino breeding is illegal,then breeding hypos should be as well.then we'll have to count the number of spots on a maccy to breed with another one with the same amount of spots.and if it has a baby with a different amount of spots to the parents we'll have to kill it because its an evil mutant.and so on,and so on


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## soulweaver (May 24, 2006)

yeah but is the EPA going to step in? they would no there is albinos in qld, so why haven't they done anything?

i think that they themselves are bending the rules in this case, as when the rules were started albinos weren't something anyone considered as none where around.


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## Magpie (May 24, 2006)

Why would they know?
They just go on the Movement Advice as Liasis olivaceous or Morelia spilota variegata.


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## Retic (May 24, 2006)

I agree, they wouldn't know unless you advertised them of course. Like I said I reckon it's crazy and does need to be straightened out for those hoping to breed these animals.



Magpie said:


> Why would they know?
> They just go on the Movement Advice as Liasis olivaceous or Morelia spilota variegata.


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## steve6610 (May 24, 2006)

hi trueblue,
i'm sorry if i misunderstood the rules as wrote, but i will state this again for those that missed it, I WAS TOLD BY AN EPA OFFICER THE INFO I HAVE WROTE IN MY OTHER POSTS, THIS IS NOT MY OPINION BUT THAT OF 1 EPA OFFICER, 

the main reason for my talk with the epa officer was the fact that i sold 50 coastal hatchlings along with a few lizzards and had also bought a few new reptiles as well as the hybrid issue, please don't accuse me of not knowing what i'm talking about, all the info about mutations and making money came from the epa officer not me, 
just because you don't agree doesn't mean i'm wrong, and everything i quoted is in black and white in your guidelines, 

hi kris, 
how do you think everybody knows about me breeding hybrids if i kept it to myself, i openly advertized them as intergrade/coastal crosses and even ad and trueblue who think i'm a mongrel breeder should be able to agree with me on that point, in addition every buyer also were either showed the parents or sent photos of both parents, i bred 18 hybrids and 40 pure coastals, they also had the chance to buy a pure coastal which a lot did, i know for certain that about 12 to 14 of them went to first time owners or owners that just wanted another a pet snake, the other couple i'm not sure on, but the owners do know what they bought

cheers,
steve............


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

Well let me just start by saying that anyone who thinks if this was taken to court and dismissed is sadly mistaken.
I have just got off the phone with a senior man in the EPA and the matter of breeding and selling albino snakes is being taken to Crown Court to get a ruling. He was very helpful and thought like I do that although an albino is a mutation it is a naturally occuring mutation. 
Within his office opinion is divided there seemed to be some sort of consensus at least. 
One thing that was made clear was that claiming ignorance would not be an excuse. If the rule is upheld any babies would be confiscated as it IS considered illegal as things stand now.
The ruling concerning the mutations was added because of what bird breeders were doing and the scope was extended to include all reptiles and amphibians as well. 
My aim is to get a clear definition of what 'mutation' actually means in the context of the legislation.
Stay tuned.


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## Rennie (May 25, 2006)

Sounds like you might have to move Trueblue


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

It may not come to that. I think this highlights why it is important to somehow unify our laws so that it isn't possible to have this situation arise again.


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## ad (May 25, 2006)

As far as mutations go, it wouldnt get any bigger than an albino would it?
It is the most visible, recognizable mutation possible.

It is an area that needs some clarification, I look forward to hearing the results Boa,
It is a major set-back to herping in Qld if that is the case, I'm sure most herpers want albinoes.
Ad


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## steve6610 (May 25, 2006)

hi boa,
at last someone that has been told the same as me, maybe now somebody will start to relize what i said was not my opinion but what was pointed out to me ,
unlike trueblue, ad and others who hate hybrids and are in their right to feel that way, i don't hate albinos and hope that when it's sorted out i will be able to own them and breed them, i also hope that the rules will be changed so i can make a living on breeding and selling reptiles, but i do know that at the moment the epa are looking at how many reptiles people are breeding and selling, again i know this as a epa officer told me to be careful as i was in the grey area and was in danger of being classed as comercial, and please remember i only sold 50 coastals, 

again i'll state i'm not having a go at anybody, just letting others know that if you read your guidelines closely you might get a shock or 2 like i did.......

cheers,
steve.........


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## soulweaver (May 25, 2006)

boa said:


> I agree, they wouldn't know unless you advertised them of course. Like I said I reckon it's crazy and does need to be straightened out for those hoping to breed these animals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




with forums like these do you think that they are not advertised?

we no the departments watch these sites, so why wouldn't they no about albinos in ppls collections?


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

Steve,
I think the problem is that as the person I spoke to at the EPA said himself too many people are getting conflicting advice and opinions from members of the EPA and NPWS. 
The main point here is that anyone planning on breeding and selling these animals don't just think you can do it and go under the radar. 
I do think that this is a problem for the EPA as it is definitely a grey area.


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## Magpie (May 25, 2006)

> with forums like these do you think that they are not advertised?
> 
> we no the departments watch these sites, so why wouldn't they no about albinos in ppls collections?



Really? I've not seen any albino's being advertised here from Qld.


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

It is perfectly legal to own an albino or even a hybrid BUT illegal to breed them.



soulweaver said:


> with forums like these do you think that they are not advertised?
> 
> we no the departments watch these sites, so why wouldn't they no about albinos in ppls collections?


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## scotchbo (May 25, 2006)

ok everyone time to chill let this post go now lol to many arguments my question has been answered so if a moderator want's to delete this post go ahead


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

I think Soulweaver may have been talking about a Nth Qld breeder who has shown the animals and has talked about breeding them so the NPWS will obviously be well aware of what is out there.



Magpie said:


> Really? I've not seen any albino's being advertised from Qld.


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

Have I missed something ? Who needs to chill ? Seems a very well mannered debate I would have thought ?



scotchbo said:


> ok everyone time to chill let this post go now lol to many arguments my question has been answered so if a moderator want's to delete this post go ahead


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## Hickson (May 25, 2006)

steve6610 said:


> just letting others know that if you read your guidelines closely you might get a shock or 2 like i did.......
> 
> cheers,
> steve.........



Just a point: guidelines are usually just that - guide lines. You should be looking at the relevant Acts and Regulations that make up the legislation. Unless they state the conditions in the Guidelines as having to be followed, then the guidelines are nothing more than a series of recommendations.



HIx

*Disclaimer:* Hix does not live in Queensland, but like the Queensland Govt he is considered by many to be backward. Hix has no formal legal training. The above statements are not to be taken or construed as legal advice. Individuals or Companies ignoring this advice do so at their own risk. Hix (and APS) are not responsible for the actions of idiots.


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## steve6610 (May 25, 2006)

no need to delete this thread, as far as i can see nobody has got out of line, i know i haven't taken offence to any comments that have been said to me, and to my knowedge i've not attacked anybody, so why would anybody want to delete this very well behaved thread on some very important issues, 

just because a question has been answered doesn't mean the thread should be deleted, if that happened how could we search through old threads to find answers to our questions, 

i just don't understand your reason for wanting this deleted, please don't lock or delete this thread as we are waiting for boa to come back with some answers from the epa.

cheers,
steve...........


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## Magpie (May 25, 2006)

> I think Soulweaver may have been talking about a Nth Qld breeder who has shown the animals and has talked about breeding them so the NPWS will obviously be well aware of what is out there



I think if there's EPA or NPWS officers out there who have nothing better to do than troll these forums, working out who someone is from their username, then viewing each pic they put up and taking the time to work out if they own the animal or just took a pic (I've put heaps of pics of exotics up) then our money is being very poorly spent. 
Then again... it is the Qld government  
Hello Mr Spy


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## steve6610 (May 25, 2006)

hi hix,
i'm sorry if you misunderstood, these guildelines are our rules, not sure how things are done in nsw, but in qld when you ask a question you are pointed to the GUIDELINES, 

hix you wrote
"Unless they state the conditions in the Guidelines as having to be followed,"

this is the case, we have to follow the rules in the guidelines.......

cheers,
steve..........


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

I agree totally if the user was anonomous but if the user is known and doesn't hide his identity or location then the job takes less time than making a phone call.



Magpie said:


> I think if there's EPA or NPWS officers out there who have nothing better to do than troll these forums, working out who someone is from their username, then viewing each pic they put up and taking the time to work out if they own the animal or just took a pic (I've put heaps of pics of exotics up) then our money is being very poorly spent.
> Then again... it is the Qld government
> Hello Mr Spy


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## TrueBlue (May 25, 2006)

?????, sadly mistaken boa,? how do you come to that. Have you just had it go thru the courts and had it denied cause thats the only way you could ever know.? I belive it would get laughed out of court, but i dought it would ever get that far. For one, albinos have been kept, bred and sold in QLD for a number of years,(adders), with the departments knowledge. Two, i was about to take the dept to court over another matter afew years back,(on the advice of QPWS officer), and one day before the lodgement was to be seen by a judge they relented and let me bring the animals into QLD that they were trying to stop me bringing in.
Common sence prevailed in the end. The case for this is even stronger so i dont see much problem and common sence should prevail again.
The dept know what i have and breed there is no secret there.


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

Have you taken it to court and had it laughed out ? That is the only way you could ever know.  
The fact that you had something dropped a few years ago is pretty much irrelevant unless it concerned breeding albinos. 
I'm not being argumentative, I am merely relaying what I was told to anyone interested. 
The department know what all of us have and breed but when you breed albinos it may or may not be a different matter. 
I posted what I was told as it concerns a few people on here. I agree that it probably wouldn't get as far as court but who knows ?


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## TrueBlue (May 25, 2006)

Like ive said boa i BELIVE it would get thrown out of court, if it ever went that far, which i dont BELIVE it would.
Albinos have already been kept, bred and sold in QLD with the dept`s knowledge,so how is this any different.?
IMO the court would throw it out as its legal in most other states and it already has been done with their knowledge in QLD, they would look pretty silly.
Im not running down QPWS Im all for the dept and most the officers that ive met, they are there for a reason and mostly do a dam good jod looking after the environment, but i think that some of the laws go a bit far.


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## Retic (May 25, 2006)

Don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you mean but all I am saying is don't assume they wont persue it. The authorities aren't bothered about looking silly if they are persuing what they believe to be right and unfortunately what is allowed in other States is irrelevant here.
I think some of our laws up here are bloody ridiculous to be honest.


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## Hickson (May 25, 2006)

steve6610 said:


> hi hix,
> i'm sorry if you misunderstood, these guildelines are our rules, not sure how things are done in nsw, but in qld when you ask a question you are pointed to the GUIDELINES,
> 
> hix you wrote
> ...



Steve, what I meant was "Unless the legislation state that the conditions in the Guidelines as having to be followed."

Of course, the Guidelines could just be a summary of whats in the Act. That's why you need to look at the legislation to determine what you can and can't do.



Hix

Disclaimer: Same as the one I posted before.


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## steve6610 (May 25, 2006)

hi trueblue,
i understand what your saying and i agree that some laws are stupid, what i want to know is your statement about if it's legal in other states it should be legal here, as you have pointed out before that doesn't matter, you make it plain what you think about anybody that crosses snakes, you have stated that the epa should catch them and take their snakes, 

but it's legal in other states, so what your saying is that because you can cross in nsw and vic that it should be ok in qld, i'm glad to see you have been converted, because I BELIEVE that if they tried to take somebody to court for crossing 2 sub species it would also not make it to the judge, 

you see your not that different to me and thats what i've been trying to point out, you think it's ok to breed mutations when it clearly states right next to hybrids that both are illegal in qld, but because it's been done before and is legal in other states that it SHOULD be legal here and ok to do, 
in my opinion that double standards..............

as stated before, i want to own albino's and will one day soon, but i also want the option to breed my pets how i like without being smashed for doing so, how different am i really to you, .............

cheers,
steve.........
ps. rob i have nothing against you or your views, i'm just trying to make the point that if we read ALL the rules in qld we would all be doing something wrong.....................


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