# Is it still a hobby?



## Merkinball (Aug 2, 2013)

After reading a recent thread on here that was causing a bit of heated discussion it got me thinking about a few of the comments and how it affects us as reptile keepers/enthusiasts. A lot of us keep an eye on Gumtree and other similar websites, and many ads often make it on to this forum to be rightfully laughed at and scorned. But what all this got me thinking about is, is our collective "hobby" becoming, or become a part of the pet industry? I see endless ads for seemingly unwanted reptiles, and some that I assume are the results of hobbyist breeding. Are all these animals finding new homes? or is the reptile keeping hobby heading down a similar path to backyard breeding of cats and dogs, and we are going to end up with many animals being killed or released because they can not be rehomed. I personally have no problems with the concept of breeding great snakes, morphs and true form alike , and many of the animals being produced are absolutely stunning. I am happy with the animals I have and wouldn't trade them for anything, but are these "super" animals perhaps encouraging the wrong people to buy and breed snakes under the impression they will profit from it because of the wow factor and exclusivity of them. And just to point out I don't think this is any way the fault of the breeders of these animals. I don't believe that many, if any breeders who are on these forums really profit from breeding, and I really don't believe that is the reason any of them got into it, but is there an impression to the greater public that they do? And we are seeing an increase of people breeding to try and make money? Only today I saw an ad looking to buy large quantities of snakes as they wanted to set up a reptile store but didn't know where to find a large quantity of snakes cheap. To me this indicates someone who has not researched or reached out to experienced people within the hobby, but someone who thinks they see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon and make some money. I think we have the greatest reptiles on the planet right here in our backyard and I think I would really struggle with the idea of "our" hobby becoming similar to the US where I am sure hundreds of thousands of animals would be disposed of in pursuit of the next big thing, or people looking for the next "cool" pet and subsequently getting bored. So the big question is where do we want to go as reptile enthusiasts?


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## Snowman (Aug 2, 2013)

Merkinball said:


> After reading a recent thread on here that was causing a bit of heated discussion it got me thinking about a few of the comments and how it affects us as reptile keepers/enthusiasts. A lot of us keep an eye on Gumtree and other similar websites, and many ads often make it on to this forum to be rightfully laughed at and scorned. But what all this got me thinking about is, is our collective "hobby" becoming, or become a part of the pet industry? I see endless ads for seemingly unwanted reptiles, and some that I assume are the results of hobbyist breeding. Are all these animals finding new homes? or is the reptile keeping hobby heading down a similar path to backyard breeding of cats and dogs, and we are going to end up with many animals being killed or released because they can not be rehomed. I personally have no problems with the concept of breeding great snakes, morphs and true form alike , and many of the animals being produced are absolutely stunning. I am happy with the animals I have and wouldn't trade them for anything, but are these "super" animals perhaps encouraging the wrong people to buy and breed snakes under the impression they will profit from it because of the wow factor and exclusivity of them. And just to point out I don't think this is any way the fault of the breeders of these animals. I don't believe that many, if any breeders who are on these forums really profit from breeding, and I really don't believe that is the reason any of them got into it, but is there an impression to the greater public that they do? And we are seeing an increase of people breeding to try and make money? Only today I saw an ad looking to buy large quantities of snakes as they wanted to set up a reptile store but didn't know where to find a large quantity of snakes cheap. To me this indicates someone who has not researched or reached out to experienced people within the hobby, but someone who thinks they see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon and make some money. I think we have the greatest reptiles on the planet right here in our backyard and I think I would really struggle with the idea of "our" hobby becoming similar to the US where I am sure hundreds of thousands of animals would be disposed of in pursuit of the next big thing, or people looking for the next "cool" pet and subsequently getting bored. So the big question is where do we want to go as reptile enthusiasts?


Over here in WA prices are still very high because supply is low and demand is high. You would expect native reptiles to be similar to what happened with native birds on license. To me breeding native birds is still a hobby... The best of both worlds is if your hobby can be partly funded from itself.


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## bk201 (Aug 2, 2013)

breeders have made and still do make loads of tax free money.


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## Snowman (Aug 2, 2013)

Is it a full moon tonight? Lol


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## Ramy (Aug 2, 2013)

bk201 said:


> breeders have made and still do make loads of tax free money.



I would dispute that. Sure it's hard to audit, but legally you've got to claim your profit on such things. Most small-time breeders will only really make back their initial investment, electricity bills, feed bills, and maybe enough to buy a nice hat. Most of the bigger breeders would have ABNs or stores and keep account of their profits and expenses. The people with the most successful lines of morphs are breeding several clutches a year, and spending a lot of time on those animals, to the point that it becomes a respectable portion of their income. Feel free to prove me wrong, but that is my understanding.

Meanwhile, I think most keepers keep reptiles as a hobby. The population of this forum (while not a random survey, still a reasonable sample) seems to be primarily made up of people who treat reptile keeping as a hobby.

I have sometimes felt like people treat breeding as too much a part of the hobby, but so far we seem to have a reasonable balance between supply and demand. Bearded dragons and other shorter lived animals are better for breeders, however pythons and turtles live for quite a while longer. Maybe in the future we'll see an over-abundance of certain animals. I'm rather hoping that we can educate reptile keepers into being responsible if they breed. Maybe that's the advantage our hobby has over backyard breeding of cats, dogs and rabbits. Reptile keeping, being newer, has started off with a better understanding of animals and the environment. Maybe Australia's wildlife would be better off if we knew better when we started keeping cats as pets?


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## mcloughlin2 (Aug 2, 2013)

By keeping reptiles you have involved yourself in the pet trade. It doesn't matter whether it was today you started or in the 70s. The moment you keep any living creature in captivity it falls under the category of pet trade. It remains a hobby until you turn it into a business in which you depend on the income. If you're just a breeder breeding a few clutches a year and the money is going towards other reptiles/covering costs it's a hobby and I don't see anything wrong with that? I for one am very motivated by the idea of making money, the reality is I just try to justify spending my hard earned savings by telling myself I'll make it all back. I doubt many reptiles are being euthanized or released because of over supply. More likely from people buying the reptiles and getting sick of them. Something which is unavoidable unless we increase education.


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## Varanoidea (Aug 2, 2013)

Whether or not it's a hobby just depends on the person really. But small-scale educated breeding at least allows for some funding towards all your collection herps once you've made back your initial investment.


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## Merkinball (Aug 2, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> . If you're just a breeder breeding a few clutches a year and the money is going towards other reptiles/covering costs it's a hobby and I don't see anything wrong with that? I for one am very motivated by the idea of making money, the reality is I just try to justify spending my hard earned savings by telling myself I'll make it all back. I doubt many reptiles are being euthanized or released because of over supply. More likely from people buying the reptiles and getting sick of them. Something which is unavoidable unless we increase education.



I wouldn't say i have an issue with people making money from breeding reptiles, but this gets back to many other threads which have questioned lineage of animals and sellers adding the 100%, 66% het tags to sell more of a potentially common animal. But that thread has been done over and over so we don't need to debate that, i'm all for research before buying. A common theme that i have noticed is the need for education, with all the differing opinions,directions and levels of benefit of all involved, how do we create a common consensus among this ever growing community.


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## junglepython2 (Aug 2, 2013)

bk201 said:


> breeders have made and still do make loads of tax free money.



Very few breeders make loads of money. If they did they wouldn't have there day jobs.


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## Merkinball (Aug 2, 2013)

ShinkirouYui said:


> Whether or not it's a hobby just depends on the person really. But small-scale educated breeding at least allows for some funding towards all your collection herps once you've made back your initial investment.



Making your hobby self funding is certainly an ideal situation. My question i guess is what is the output vs the input. I don't have any numbers of how many reptiles are kept in Australia, or the number of legal owners, but lets say the average clutch is 15 animals, therefore for every person who breeds a pair, you would need at least, i would hazard a guess, potentially 5 new licence owners per clutch, maybe more maybe less depending on the species and quality. Can every animal be homed if say 5000 - 10,000 people had the same idea. These are obviously not correct numbers, but i think you can see what the question is. Are we heading for potential oversupply?


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## Snowman (Aug 2, 2013)

Merkinball said:


> I wouldn't say i have an issue with people making money from breeding reptiles, but this gets back to many other threads which have questioned lineage of animals and sellers adding the 100%, 66% het tags to sell more of a potentially common animal. But that thread has been done over and over so we don't need to debate that, i'm all for research before buying. A common theme that i have noticed is the need for education, with all the differing opinions,directions and levels of benefit of all involved, how do we create a common consensus among this ever growing community.


I don't think there is a need for a common consensus. But I think to be taken seriously you need to have some factual information to support what ever point of view it is you are trying to portray. As long as you are happy with what you do, it shouldn't matter what the next bloke does. As far as the pet trade, none of it is a resource for replenishing wild stock. If anyone is worried about pure stock then conservation of wild populations is the first port of call. Pet reptiles will always cover standard specimens through to strange morphs. Mostly because we are such a diverse group of people and we all like different specimens.... Again I refer to the licensed bird keepers, just because they have been around a lot longer.... They have their morphs, but you can still get normal's as well. It's hard to imagine reptiles being any different.
If people are making money, it's only because they have something someone else wants. You can't begrudge anyone for that! Personally I like to hear people doing well rather than being stuck with a heap of animals they can't sell. They hobby is fairly self limiting in that way. If some one breeds 20 bredli one year and they sell 5, I doubt they are going to be breeding the next year or even the next year after that. It's just common sense....


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## Merkinball (Aug 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> If people are making money, it's only because they have something someone else wants. You can't begrudge anyone for that! Personally I like to hear people doing well rather than being stuck with a heap of animals they can't sell. They hobby is fairly self limiting in that way. If some one breeds 20 bredli one year and they sell 5, I doubt they are going to be breeding the next year or even the next year after that. It's just common sense....



Certainly don't begrudge anyone for making money from animals that other people want. With some of the amazing animals that are being produced, breeders should be rewarded financially for the time and effort they have invested. And i certainly agree that it is much better to hear of people selling all their animals, than being stuck with them. I just question with the amount of reptiles that we see for sale especially on the East Coast i guess that i wonder about the hobby being self limiting anymore . I certainly hope it is though.


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## bk201 (Aug 2, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> Very few breeders make loads of money. If they did they wouldn't have there day jobs.



lets change my statement then besides snake ranch which breeders in nsw declared taxable income from python breeding? and yes some breeders make 6 figures and work a day job not all but some of the bigger breeders do or did before the prices went down but you wont see them admitting to it because they would not have declared tax as commercial breeding is not legal in nsw apparently...


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## bk201 (Aug 2, 2013)

Ramy said:


> I would dispute that.




legal and whats actually done is two different things remember that
as its illegal to commercially breed pythons and petshops only just got the go ahead to begin selling reptiles i doubt they have stores....several clutches a year? some breeders are breeding several dozens of clutches per year...hence the price drops...its not the pair of spotted pythons its the rack of spotteds next to the wa stimmies between the womas rack and the children's rack


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## junglepython2 (Aug 2, 2013)

I highly doubt any private breeders are making anything near 6 figures these days, maybe a very select few in the golden years when greens and albino darwins were commanding top dollar but not anymore. I know a few guys who support themselves with there breeding, but none of them are rolling in it.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 2, 2013)

Last financial year I made $20,000 of my reptiles and rats all cash and none was declared, why would I and why should I, I didn't take the initial investment of my rats and snakes and cages off of my declarable income so why would I give them some of my profit. My power bill has gone up ridiculously and they are only wasting the money Ido give them so they can shove it if they think I would declare my pets profits. I keep a very detailed log of every cost and every $ of income and I had $9000 costs between electric food medical etc $29000 income. This year I will reinvest about ten grand into a new large air conditioned shed for the rats. I include the rats which make a majority of the profit in the reptile profit and loss because with the amount of reptiles I have one goes hand and hand with the other. I have a day job so only spend approx 3 hrs per week on rats and 6-8 hrs of love and enjoyment of my snakes.


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## andynic07 (Aug 2, 2013)

I think that the poster should not let what others are doing or saying change what he wants to get out of the hobby. I also do not care what others do legal or illegal until it directly affects me. If the want to sell snakes and not declare it that is up to them , I would not encourage it but I certainly would not say anything or begrudge them doing it. It is their choice to roll the dice with their family and not mine. I am happy to go along my merry way and enjoy my reptiles for what they are. If the reptile that I want has a market value of $10000 then I make the decision if it is worth it to me and either fork out or save up to get it. I love the hobby for what it gives me and don't let what others do effect my experience.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 2, 2013)

At what point do u start to declare your profit and loss, if you get an abn for your reptiles and you don't make any profit can u declare the gst you have paid and get a rebate. If u make say $1000 profit do you pay the government $100 or do u only pay tax when you make significant profit.


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 3, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> At what point do u start to declare your profit and loss, if you get an abn for your reptiles and you don't make any profit can u declare the gst you have paid and get a rebate. If u make say $1000 profit do you pay the government $100 or do u only pay tax when you make significant profit.



Over $75k and you need to start paying gst. A good page from the ATO regarding hobby vs business.

http://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Star...page=4#Hobby_or_business-_why_does_it_matter?



Rick


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## andynic07 (Aug 3, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> At what point do u start to declare your profit and loss, if you get an abn for your reptiles and you don't make any profit can u declare the gst you have paid and get a rebate. If u make say $1000 profit do you pay the government $100 or do u only pay tax when you make significant profit.


Yeah not sure on the tax laws mate, I think it is determined by annual turn over. Like I said it doesn't effect me so I don't really think about it or worry about it. Every person has their own limits on what they think is an acceptable breach of certain rules and I am no exception so I tend not to judge others on their breaches.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 3, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> Over $75k and you need to start paying gst. A good page from the ago regarding hobby vs business.
> 
> Online selling - hobby or business? | Australian Taxation Office
> 
> ...


Sweet so I didn't need to disclose then, I wonder if this is per business per person or per family


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 3, 2013)

Regardless of if you have a requirement to pay gst or not, you are still required to declare your income. If you are operating with book keeping and profit loss statements then you are running a business, and you should be subject to the same rules as any other business.

On the other hand, many people choose to run small operations and choose to do so in a manner that is not legal. It's almost considered unaustralian if you don't. The best advice though, it's probably not a great idea to advertise the fact.


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## lizardwhisperer (Aug 3, 2013)

Those who make significant off the books money from the hobby better hope the licencing authorities in each state don't share their records with the ATD, and don't check out your declared incomes against your actual. An audit could be very costly if you're caught in their net.

And anyone on benefits who not declaring could wind up in prison and loosing a lot more than you've tried to keep hidden.


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## Paintedpythons (Aug 3, 2013)

Just thinking out loud .... Every time you sell a snake you fill out the licence details as to who sold it and who bought it . I am sure there is someone in a little room in a government building keeping all the records so if you sold 55 snakes last year they would know about it and I'm sure that the guy next to him is keeping track of all the forums finding out how much snakes are being sold for . Can they join up joe smith on the licence to makebigbucks on the forum ? Would they bother ? Would the government be concerned that they may miss out on $$$$ if lots of people are making a healthy income without declaring ??? .... Most likely I have just got red flagged by that guy in that office but ill never get to the point of giving up my day job . If I loose the joy of having snakes because I want to make big buck I would have to sell the lot and find something that would bring in a monthly income with no high risks ..... But I do think the real big brother is always watching ... If I get bumped off in the next week or so due to saying too much my snakes will be going cheap as my wife won't feed them ! .... Can she sell them as she don't have the licence .. Didn't think of that ! I think she would just open the enclosures ... Open the door and wait in the bedroom till they were all gone


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## andynic07 (Aug 3, 2013)

Paintedpythons said:


> Just thinking out loud .... Every time you sell a snake you fill out the licence details as to who sold it and who bought it . I am sure there is someone in a little room in a government building keeping all the records so if you sold 55 snakes last year they would know about it and I'm sure that the guy next to him is keeping track of all the forums finding out how much snakes are being sold for . Can they join up joe smith on the licence to makebigbucks on the forum ? Would they bother ? Would the government be concerned that they may miss out on $$$$ if lots of people are making a healthy income without declaring ??? .... Most likely I have just got red flagged by that guy in that office but ill never get to the point of giving up my day job . If I loose the joy of having snakes because I want to make big buck I would have to sell the lot and find something that would bring in a monthly income with no high risks ..... But I do think the real big brother is always watching ... If I get bumped off in the next week or so due to saying too much my snakes will be going cheap as my wife won't feed them ! .... Can she sell them as she don't have the licence .. Didn't think of that ! I think she would just open the enclosures ... Open the door and wait in the bedroom till they were all gone


One fundamental flaw in this, the price difference between a standard jungle, $150 and a really nice jungle jag $1000 or a zebra jungle $5000. The same could be said for olives to albino olive or a lot of other morphs.


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## wokka (Aug 3, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> Sweet so I didn't need to disclose then, I wonder if this is per business per person or per family


GST obligations are based upon turnover per ABN entity, which does not necessarily relate to profit. If turnover is over 75K you must pay GST. Under that its optional and of couse if you pay GST you can credit gst paid. If you made 20K over and above costs your are legally required to declare that income and pay tax. Some of the deductions you are suggesting should be depreciated over some years, as they are capital, rather than directly offset againsy income.


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## champagne (Aug 3, 2013)

if people were smart you would register it as a business, run it at a loss and offset keeping your reptiles against your taxable income from your day job...


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## wokka (Aug 3, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> if people were smart you would register it as a business, run it at a loss and offset keeping your reptiles against your taxable income from your day job...


 Believe it or not, there are also rules relating to that, which were directed at hobby farmers offsetting income against their day job. They generally relate to turnover (50K i think) and then you must have the character of a business such as the intent to profit, records etc.


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 3, 2013)

Almost all tax investigations carried out by the ATO are as a result of a tip off, or a general review of a tax agent. Tip offs are a lot more common than you think. Jealousy is a powerful emotion, and market competition is another good explanation for someone to make a five minute phone call that could have serious implications. Defrauding the ATO is frowned upon, and this particular agency in over zealous in handing out punishment. 

With some careful handling and setup, an income of $20k, with expenses and expansion taken into consideration could almost equate to zero tax payable. Obviously there are significant unknowns in this situation. 

My only point being, if your going to run a for profit hobby/business without a income deceleration, best keep it quiet. Who needs big brother when you have more than enough people who would gladly fill in for big brother for far more self motivated reasons.


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 3, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> Those who make significant off the books money from the hobby better hope the licencing authorities in each state don't share their records with the ATD, and don't check out your declared incomes against your actual. An audit could be very costly if you're caught in their net.
> 
> And anyone on benefits who not declaring could wind up in prison and loosing a lot more than you've tried to keep hidden.



This is why prices are not shared with our records, buying or selling. Who's to say that the 4 clutches of jungle pythons someone may sell for $150 don't cost $150 worth of food, power, time (that to me is not profit).


Rick


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## Chris1 (Aug 3, 2013)

so just to make sure im understanding this right, a breeder can make $20K profit in a financial year without having any legal obligations to declare it, and its ok to see this money coming thru the regular bank account? Seems like alot for the govt to not want their chunk,.....


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## saintanger (Aug 3, 2013)

unless the ATO is gonna help clean snake poo, stay up all night with a sick reptile, while juggling kids then they don't deserve any money. why should they profit from someone elses hard work. 

i made very little last year off a few reptiles and i spent a lot more on electricity, food plus enclosures to house them and vet bills. so i actually did not make a profit at all. i rather spend all the money i make back into reptiles so i have no profit.


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 3, 2013)

The ATO taxes everyone who works and generates income. They don't help anyone do their chosen means to generate an income. Regardless of how you choose to generate said income, legally you are obliged to declare it. If your operating costs are in the red, you could actually claim this as a tax offset to your total income so long as the business is carried out in a legal manner.


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## champagne (Aug 3, 2013)

you can legally make $5000 profit from a ''hobby'' before you have to declare anything


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## wokka (Aug 3, 2013)

saintanger said:


> unless the ATO is gonna help clean snake poo, stay up all night with a sick reptile, while juggling kids then they don't deserve any money. why should they profit from someone elses hard work.
> 
> i made very little last year off a few reptiles and i spent a lot more on electricity, food plus enclosures to house them and vet bills. so i actually did not make a profit at all. i rather spend all the money i make back into reptiles so i have no profit.


The ATO gives the money to Government who in turn spend it on things like roads, hospitals, schools and social security. Putting money back into reptiles may not directly offset your taxable income. If you are lucky enough to pay tax it should be because you are making a profit. If you are making a profit and not paying tax someone else is paying more than they should to prop up the costs of running Australia.


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## wokka (Aug 3, 2013)

Chris1 said:


> so just to make sure im understanding this right, a breeder can make $20K profit in a financial year without having any legal obligations to declare it, and its ok to see this money coming thru the regular bank account? Seems like alot for the govt to not want their chunk,.....


 If the answer really matters,I would probably ask someone with more credibility than being a member of a reptile forum.


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## Chris1 (Aug 3, 2013)

it doesnt really matter, i originally heard it was $50K tax free income for a hobby which really surprised me,....with the few gex i sell throughout the year i'd be lucky to get close to $5k, which is alot less than room id be offsetting if i had to pay tax on them,....


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 3, 2013)

How much you make from your venture is irrelevant to the tax office. Even the legality of the method you generate your income is of no concern to the tax office. The ATO is concerned with income made with the intent to run a commercially viable operation. If your intent is to acquire stock, breed and sell to generate profit, then you are no longer a hobby. If it is your intention to obtain animals, breed and sell some, for your own personal wants, and your intention isn't to run a commercial viable operation then it's still a hobby. It's all about intent.


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## No-two (Aug 3, 2013)

I think some of you need to call the ATO. There is so much crap in this thread which can easily be answered. I'm sure a lot of you will be very surprised but wing_nut has been closest with the intent of your breeding.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 3, 2013)

For anyone who needs clarity on this matter they should examine the ATO website or even speak to a tax expert. Even then it may still remain a little "grey" unless you intend to carry on as a commercial business. 
If you pay for web space to advertise your animals or advertise animals for sale on a regular basis you could be liable to tax on any money you make from the sale. 

In order to answer the OP's initial question I say YES it's still a hobby if that is what you want it to be. If you want it to be a business it can be a business, though probably not as profitable as some would have you believe. Me, I'm in it for the hobby and I might be lucky enough to have some fantastic animals in my care but it is, and will always be a hobby in my eyes. (An expensive hobby too I might add)


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 3, 2013)

Another link care of the ATO.
http://www.ato.gov.au/General/Tax-evasion-and-crime/About-tax-evasion-and-crime/


Rick


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## lizardwhisperer (Aug 3, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> if people were smart you would register it as a business, run it at a loss and offset keeping your reptiles against your taxable income from your day job...


I'm sure lots of people who are breeding their reptlles do that, and they will claim as business costs the food, hardware, and some of their household electricity, phone, internet , and get depreciation on the major items (enclosure banks, computer, UV meter, reptile shed or room build). And if they make a loss on the reptile business it reduces their total taxable income too.

This is what I did for while from one of my other hobbies , only closed it down because I had NO FREE FAMILY TIME and I had to deal with people to sell stuff to them (yuck !) and there were a lot time wasters and tire kickers who were downright annoying. Made good money but effort was not worth it, and I decided to close it down.

Of cause if they are on pension or other benefit , this is not really available to them so the they will do everything off the books and cash only to avoid Centrelink complications (until they dobbed in or tell the wrong person (probably in a pub or online) and get hauled in front of a magistrate on centrelink fraud charges).

If you are doing the later, or otherwize operating off-the books, and get caught, don't expect any support or sympathy from me.


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## champagne (Aug 3, 2013)

you need a Commercial Wildlife Licence to run a business that breeds and sells reptiles in Queensland but can only breed children’s, spotted and Stimson’s python under that license. so if you cant legally be licensed to breed Morelia's as a business, how can it be a commercial venture that requires you to register a business and pay tax?


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## saintanger (Aug 3, 2013)

wokka said:


> The ATO gives the money to Government who in turn spend it on things like roads, hospitals, schools and social security. Putting money back into reptiles may not directly offset your taxable income. If you are lucky enough to pay tax it should be because you are making a profit. If you are making a profit and not paying tax someone else is paying more than they should to prop up the costs of running Australia.



i pay tax from my day job and i don't really see our government spending my hard earnt money on anything other than their trips and hotel accomedation. but i wont get into that.

i made $350 off a few reps i sold last year and just the enclosure to house them cost more than that. so i doubt i have to declare $350. if i was making alot of money i would declare it but not on anything that's a few hundred dollars.


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 3, 2013)

The tax office does not differentiate between legal or illegal businesses as shown by the drug dealer who took the ATO to court and won his case and claimed a bad batch of drugs as a tax deduction. It is not the ATOs responsibility to say if a business is legal or not, only apply the taxation laws. Any issue with licensing is a seperate issue dealt with by a seperate government body.


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 3, 2013)

You didn't actually have an income if your expenses were greater than your cost. At least, that's my understanding. The legislation is in place specifically for people in those kinds of circumstances.


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## lizardwhisperer (Aug 3, 2013)

saintanger said:


> i pay tax from my day job and i don't really see our government spending my hard earnt money on anything other than their trips and hotel accomedation. but i wont get into that.
> 
> i made $350 off a few reps i sold last year and just the enclosure to house them cost more than that. so i doubt i have to declare $350. if i was making alot of money i would declare it but not on anything that's a few hundred dollars.



More than likely if you were born before 1960 , your parents are recieving a pension and other benefits and concessions from the government , if not your parents , then your grandparents will be if they are still around. Just where do think that money comes from ?

Plus there are a load of other things we all need and use that are government (tax) funded.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 3, 2013)

saintanger said:


> i made $350 off a few reps i sold last year and just the enclosure to house them cost more than that. so i doubt i have to declare $350. if i was making alot of money i would declare it but not on anything that's a few hundred dollars.



In this example, if you were registered as a business, you could claim the costs against your full taxable income. Therefore reducing your tax liability. But only if this were being run as a business. In your case I believe the ATO would see this as a hobby again negating any liability from themselves.


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## saintanger (Aug 3, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> More than likely if you were born before 1960 , your parents are recieving a pension and other benefits and concessions from the government , if not your parents , then your grandparents will be if they are still around. Just where do think that money comes from ?
> 
> Plus there are a load of other things we all need and use that are government (tax) funded.



nope all grand parents are dead, haven't seen my father since i was still in school and he worked full time and had a large super account. 

my mother lives with my sister who looks after her and gets peanuts of centerlink, she worked her whole life and payed tax. the amount of tax her kids pay is more than 10 times what they pay her. 

i'm happy to pay work tax but not hobby tax wen your not making much fair enough if i was making heaps. my local hospital is under staffed and does not have the facilities to deal with certain illnesses so wen my daughter was born to get a simple head scan i had to be moved to another hospital, i had to stay over night some nights with her in special care nursery because they were under staffed. so were is my tax money going?


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## bk201 (Aug 3, 2013)

You had to stay over night with your kid? 
Tax would have payed for the scanner the hospital etc etc etc


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## saintanger (Aug 3, 2013)

bk201 said:


> You had to stay over night with your kid?
> Tax would have payed for the scanner the hospital etc etc etc



yes the goverment payed for some stuff but i noticed plarks on most stuff saying it had been donated buy companies and other charities. i also donated money myself. 

in special care nuresary wen a mother gets discharged there are no beds for us to stay there so if your gonna stay all night you have to sit in a chair next to your sick babies humidity crib the whole night.


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## andynic07 (Aug 3, 2013)

bk201 said:


> You had to stay over night with your kid?
> Tax would have payed for the scanner the hospital etc etc etc


Taxes pay for a lot of medical stuff but the health care system is very under funded and there are a lot of procedures that are needed that are not covered by medicare. I needed an ultrasound on my liver the other day and had to pay $180 because it was not covered.


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## bk201 (Aug 3, 2013)

saintanger said:


> yes the goverment payed for some stuff but i noticed plarks on most stuff saying it had been donated buy companies and other charities. i also donated money myself.



I thought donations get declared at tax time


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## andynic07 (Aug 3, 2013)

bk201 said:


> I thought donations get declared at tax time


You have the right to claim receipted donations at tax time as long as you did not receive anything for it. Not sure what your point about that is though?


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## lizardwhisperer (Aug 5, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Taxes pay for a lot of medical stuff but the health care system is very under funded and there are a lot of procedures that are needed that are not covered by medicare. I needed an ultrasound on my liver the other day and had to pay $180 because it was not covered.


 Be thankful you DO NOT live in USA , is very costly to get sick there .
I'd rather have our mixed system and a very good medical / hospital safety net and have our hospital system and PBS than the mess they have.


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## andynic07 (Aug 5, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> Be thankful you DO NOT live in USA , is very costly to get sick there .
> I'd rather have our mixed system and a very good medical / hospital safety net and have our hospital system and PBS than the mess they have.



Very true but just because we do not the worst doesn't mean we shouldn't try to strive to have the best.


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## moosenoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Personally I believe there is more supply than demand. Your typical carpet python are literally being given away these days. If they're not oddballs like albinos or hybrid patterned critters then they are out there in their droves. 

Not everyone wants to keep a reptile, not everyone is able to keep them either (especially with threads like "make my mum let me keep a snake"). Sure, it's a growing hobby, but like the Aussie car industry, we don't have the population to keep up such a huge supply (IMHO).


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## Merkinball (Aug 5, 2013)

VenomOOse said:


> Personally I believe there is more supply than demand. Your typical carpet python are literally being given away these days. If they're not oddballs like albinos or hybrid patterned critters then they are out there in their droves.
> 
> Not everyone wants to keep a reptile, not everyone is able to keep them either (especially with threads like "make my mum let me keep a snake"). Sure, it's a growing hobby, but like the Aussie car industry, we don't have the population to keep up such a huge supply (IMHO).



These are exactly my thoughts, and the reason i started this thread. This is what i was trying to get at with the hobby vs pet industry line of thought. Going through all the replies, and being a member of this site i see there is a mix of people purely in it for their long held interst and love of reptiles, and those that enjoy larger collections and to make some money out of what they love. Both of these are fine in my opinion, based on the knowledge and evident passion of the people on here. But as with the above quote, there are a lot of "mongrel" animals and plain old common animals that are being bred and advertised for sale. Can we honestly as a whole say that all these animals are being re homed? And if not, does this raise the potential issue of tainting natural populations with hybrid/cross bred or non native animals, just because some people see the opportunity to make a quick $?


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## andynic07 (Aug 5, 2013)

I have just witnessed a number of people on a Facebook group in Queensland discussing jag to jag pairings with the knowledge of the fatal gene killing potentially 25% of the clutch on the off chance the will nail one that will live. I think that this certainly fits into this discussion and those actions are not of someone who is partaking in a hobby. They are talking about pairing a number together and didn't seem to care about the poor snakes and to me that stops it being a hobby.


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## longqi (Aug 5, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I have just witnessed a number of people on a Facebook group in Queensland discussing jag to jag pairings with the knowledge of the fatal gene killing potentially 25% of the clutch on the off chance the will nail one that will live. I think that this certainly fits into this discussion and those actions are not of someone who is partaking in a hobby. They are talking about pairing a number together and didn't seem to care about the poor snakes and to me that stops it being a hobby.



just as with art, writing etc etc in every hobby there are x number of people who push the envelope
sometimes this eventually helps the hobby by creating new opportunities
sometimes it doesnt
so to these people it is still considered a hobby because of their belief in themselves rather than the welfare of the animals in their care


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## andynic07 (Aug 5, 2013)

longqi said:


> just as with art, writing etc etc in every hobby there are x number of people who push the envelope
> sometimes this eventually helps the hobby by creating new opportunities
> sometimes it doesnt
> so to these people it is still considered a hobby because of their belief in themselves rather than the welfare of the animals in their care



Interesting point, each person has a different view and different important aspects of the hobby I guess. To me welfare of the animals is the most important aspect but saying that I bet there was a lot of animals lost at the start of the hobby while husbandry techniques were discovered.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 5, 2013)

bk201 said:


> breeders have made and still do make loads of tax free money.


I hope you have extensve proof of that. snake breeding is not something you can make money out of unless you have multiple rare morphs and even then its under the banner of a business which is lodged to the ATO.


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## lizardwhisperer (Aug 5, 2013)

Well, I've always been fascinated by and loved herps (esp lizards and frogs) and my lizards are more companion pets than anything else and treated like scalely 4 legged children with loads of contact time and physical contact with us.
Any babies we get as result of them doing what comes naturally if we let them, I'm more inclined to give away to friends and relatives than selling them. So for me , THIS IS ONE OF MY HOBBIES IN THE TRUEST SENSE AND NOT A BUSINESS (I just can not be bothered with turning my interest in lizards into a money making microbusiness or the complications involved in that , and I'm sure there a lots of others in the hobby who feel the same).

My message to those who breed to make money is since they are making money, cut the crap and admit it and do the right thing and pay the GST and income tax and don't spoil this wonderful hobby for the rest of us by doing "BLACKMARKETING" and forcing the state and fed governments to crack down and make more restrictions on all off us.


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## junglepython2 (Aug 5, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I have just witnessed a number of people on a Facebook group in Queensland discussing jag to jag pairings with the knowledge of the fatal gene killing potentially 25% of the clutch on the off chance the will nail one that will live. I think that this certainly fits into this discussion and those actions are not of someone who is partaking in a hobby. They are talking about pairing a number together and didn't seem to care about the poor snakes and to me that stops it being a hobby.


Jag to Jag makes less unwanted sibs. Plus just about all the Lucy's don't even hatch, so I don't really see a major welfare issue over the usual Jag to normal pairing.


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## longqi (Aug 5, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> Jag to Jag makes less unwanted sibs. Plus just about all the Lucy's don't even hatch, so I don't really see a major welfare issue over the usual Jag to normal pairing.



So deliberately breeding animals when you already know some will not survive the birthing stage is ok???


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## junglepython2 (Aug 5, 2013)

longqi said:


> So deliberately breeding animals when you already know some will not survive the birthing stage is ok???



I personally don't have a problem with it, I don't consider it cruel if they don't hatch. I have more of an issue with raising animals with known neuro for the rest of there lives.


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 5, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> I personally don't have a problem with it, I don't consider it cruel if they don't hatch. I have more of an issue with raising animals with known neuro for the rest of there lives.



I'm sort of in the same boat, neuro is a lot bigger problem then low clutch success.


Rick


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## bk201 (Aug 5, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> I hope you have extensve proof of that. snake breeding is not something you can make money out of unless you have multiple rare morphs and even then its under the banner of a business which is lodged to the ATO.



As said people don't declare the income so you cannot prove anything unless you go through classifieds on these type of sites for a year or two and you will see what is being bred and in what numbers there are many breeders breeding so many reptiles they are hiding it from the ATO and the licensing system to the point some of them ask you to put down your purchases as "gifts received rather than a sale...


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## andynic07 (Aug 6, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> Jag to Jag makes less unwanted sibs. Plus just about all the Lucy's don't even hatch, so I don't really see a major welfare issue over the usual Jag to normal pairing.


That is one point that I did not think about. Not sure if I agree or disagree at this stage but definitely agree with longqi that this is pushing the boundaries. I think I will have to have a think about this one. Can you provide any more information as to what stage of development the snakes get to in the egg before they die?


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## Merkinball (Aug 6, 2013)

junglepython2 said:


> I personally don't have a problem with it, I don't consider it cruel if they don't hatch. I have more of an issue with raising animals with known neuro for the rest of there lives.



I'm in the same boat as longqi and andynic07 on this, i'm not sure how about how i feel about the non hatchies. But i do agree about the issue of neuro in these cases. Do you think that the breeder would sell affected animals, or continue to care for the neuro affected hatchies their whole lives, or would they simply be euthanized (perhaps in the animals best interest), therefore highlighting the lack of thought and care involved in what they were doing?


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## Justdragons (Aug 6, 2013)

I cannot stand that people are cross breeding the jag gene resulting in neuro. It is solely to breed designer morphs and i for one look at it in a very dim view. Would you have a child that you knew would be a super model but would be down syndrome and couldn't feed them self.. no you wouldn't because it wouldn't be fair on the child..(That is in a way you had the choice before conceiving. I'm in no way going in to a abortion debate here). 

I think the biggest danger our hobby faces at this point is the cross breeding localitys to achieve designer morphs. For some reason when the jag gene came about people started to cross this out to other localitys.. Ive seen Bredli x jungle x diamond jags.. now this isnt even the biggest problem. the problem lies in what happens to the not so amazing sibs.. they are sold to general public wanting a 'carpet python'. Later down the track breeding them and selling them as a jungle carpet.. 
The Americans are amazed by our locality specific carpets and so am i. We need to preserve this. Morphs are great and i own an albino myself but i feel we need locality preservation.. I have lost so much respect for some breeders who i always though were kings and queens amongst men for this exact reason 

breeding a young python that often spends a life in retarded stupor is ignorant are you breeding to be the first to get a rare morph or line the pockets.? A life is a life, snake or human. 

This is just my honest opinion. Im not trying to ruffle feathers at all. 

Stay classy Herpers..


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## lizardwhisperer (Aug 6, 2013)

bk201 said:


> As said people don't declare the income so you cannot prove anything unless you go through classifieds on these type of sites for a year or two and you will see what is being bred and in what numbers there are many breeders breeding so many reptiles they are hiding it from the ATO and the licensing system to the point some of them ask you to put down your purchases as "gifts received rather than a sale...



Any who wants me to enter the source as gift recieved better not expect me to pay for said "gift".


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## Gavatron (Aug 6, 2013)

I think its a good subject to keep discussing. The hobby will hopefully keeping developing responsible practices which will help the overall public view of this rather niche hobby. 
Unlike the USA, we don't have the huge population to support some of the reptile warehouses we see over there, which can become a horrible mess if they have business management issues. One business there was recently found to have several hundered reptiles and 20,000 rodents in purtid conditions.
Personally, I like my three snakes but would never start breeding, but for those that want that challenge, good luck. Just do it all responsibly and make a few bucks if you can.


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## Merkinball (Aug 6, 2013)

Gavatron said:


> Unlike the USA, we don't have the huge population to support some of the reptile warehouses we see over there, which can become a horrible mess if they have business management issues. One business there was recently found to have several hundered reptiles and 20,000 rodents in purtid conditions.
> .



I think we are probably a long way off how the US now operates (thankfully), but this does raise the question, with the new laws allowing snakes to be sold in NSW pet shops, does anyone think this will have an effect on the breeding numbers etc and perhaps increase the chances of the above situation. I personally know that i would never purchase a snake from a pet shop, thats just personal choice, but does the availability increase the opportunity of "impulse" buys? Considering the ease of licensing in many states.


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## Serpent_Gazeux (Aug 6, 2013)

.


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## daniel1234 (Aug 10, 2013)

I think it is still a hobby and breeding reptiles is actually a skill to learn because it is not as easy as buying two furry critter's and letting it happen. Plus it takes up a lot of time. I would hope that those looking to acquire large numbers of reptiles in a short time have actually bred a few beforehand. My collection turned over a bit because I am a sucker for rehab. Once the critter was back to health I would move it on. It can be frustrating and occasionally heartbreaking but I value the learning curve it provided. Plus I have interacted with a few different species other than my keepers.


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## champagne (Aug 10, 2013)

If you want pure locality reptiles you can and will always find them..... not all jags have major neuro problems, In my experience less then 5% of jags have a major neuro issue but everyone hates on jags without actually knowing the facts.


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 10, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> If you want pure locality reptiles you can and will always find them..... not all jags have major neuro problems, In my experience less then 5% of jags have a major neuro issue but everyone hates on jags without actually knowing the facts.



Agreed. A lot of people associate jags with all having neuro where it actually isnt fact, same as woma's and bhp's being exclusive reptile eaters (around 50% at best, most other species around 30%).

I love a lot of the pure locales but a gorgeous jag always catchs my eye, i guess like high coloured beardies.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 10, 2013)

Jags have there place in the hobby same as any other species, I personally love the look but don't have them out of favour towards purebred but I can definatley see the attraction


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## champagne (Aug 11, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> Agreed. A lot of people associate jags with all having neuro where it actually isnt fact.


 they actually all do have some amount of neruo problems but most is so little that people actually don't notice.


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## Cunninghamskinks (Aug 15, 2013)

I thinks it the people who just get over the obsession of owning a lizard


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## Unclewo-wo (Nov 12, 2013)

Merkinball said:


> I think we are probably a long way off how the US now operates (thankfully), but this does raise the question, with the new laws allowing snakes to be sold in NSW pet shops, does anyone think this will have an effect on the breeding numbers etc and perhaps increase the chances of the above situation. I personally know that i would never purchase a snake from a pet shop, thats just personal choice, but does the availability increase the opportunity of "impulse" buys? Considering the ease of licensing in many states.



Every pet shop I have been to have sourced their reptiles from someone like you or me, I do think impulse buying will always be there but a pet shop has to make a profit. Do on that they will at least double what they paid for it.

I would not buy from a pet shop unless they had pictures of mother and father and line records which I think they should have to do. 

The last thing is it will bring a lot more people to the hobby, having someone walk in to buy fish and see a snake, turtle, spider, lizard or scorpion 

Just hope they get the right information (for care), as with most things if you have a bad experience ie a death because of a lack of information you are more inclined not to pursue the hobby


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