# tail docking?



## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

g'day,
whats the laws on tail docking on dogs.


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## da_donkey (Jun 4, 2007)

Pretty sure it is against the law now, same as ear clipping.

In NSW anyway

Donk


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

disgusting practice and yes it is illegal!!!


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## Forensick (Jun 4, 2007)

i always thought it was illegal, wihtout medical reason.

but seems a lot of roti pups must have tail infections....


from RSPCA

The RSPCA believes that cosmetic tail docking is a painful and totally unnecessary tradition and has long campaigned for ban on this cruel practice. In a landmark decision by Ministers from each State and Territory government, the RSPCA’s call has now been heeded. Tens of thousands of newborn puppies who would have had their tails cut off in the name of this pointless fashion will now be reprieved. 

In October 2003 the Primary Industries Ministerial Council agreed to implement a nationally coordinated ban on routine tail docking for non-therapeutic (cosmetic) reasons. In some states and in the ACT the ban is already in force and it came into force nationally on 1 April 2004. After this date dogs’ tails will no longer be docked anywhere in Australia unless there is a medical reason behind the operation. Only a qualified veterinarian will be permitted to carry out the surgery, in accordance with state and territory legislation.

*The First Cut*

Puppies' tails are docked at around 2-5 days of age using a pair of scissors or a very tight rubber band. In those areas of Australia where the national ban has not yet come into force, tail docking does not have to be carried out by a veterinary surgeon - anyone classed as an 'experienced breeder' can cut off their puppies' tails themselves. No anaesthetic is usually used even though the cut goes through highly sensitive nerves. Many veterinarians oppose the procedure on the grounds that it is 'cruel, painful and unnecessary’. 
*Tail docking is painful*

Advocates of tail docking claim that it does not cause pain or discomfort, as the nervous system of puppies is not fully developed. This is not the case. The basic nervous system of a dog is fully developed at birth and the available evidence indicates that puppies have similar, if not increased, sensitivity to pain as adult dogs. Docking a puppy's tail involves cutting through muscles, tendons, up to seven pairs of highly sensitive nerves and severing bone and cartilage connections. Tail docking is usually carried out without any anaesthesia. Puppies give repeated intense shrieking vocalisations the moment the tail is cut off and during stitching of the wound, indicating that they experience substantial pain. Inflammation and damage to the tissues also cause ongoing pain while the wound heals. 
*Is it legal?*





After 1 April 2004 it is no longer legally acceptable in Australia to dock dogs’ or pups’ tails except for medical purposes. 

Cosmetic tail docking has also been banned in a number of countries including Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Finland, Germany and Denmark. Several other European countries including Cyprus, Greece, Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Austria have also ratified a European Convention that prohibits the cosmetic docking of tails. In the United Kingdom tail docking can only be carried out by a registered veterinary surgeon. The practice is opposed by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons which describes it as an 'unacceptable mutilation'. 







*Pro-docking claims*

The few but vocal advocates of tail docking give a range of unconvincing explanations to defend their views. For instance, they say that some heavy coated breeds need to have their tails docked for hygiene reasons (even though many undocked breeds have thick coats and regular care is all that is necessary to maintain good hygiene).

Another 'explanation' is that docking prevents tail damage in hunting dogs. But most docked puppies are kept as family pets and are never used for hunting. And research has shown that docking does not reduce tail injury in the general dog population. Furthermore, many breeds of hunting dogs do not have docked tails, and the length of the tail in docked breeds varies according to the breed standard.

The excuses put forward to support tail docking are plainly unfounded. There is simply no excuse for continuing this painful tradition. 


*But tail docking continues*

Tail docking has continued because, despite the convincing arguments against it, breeders of traditionally docked breeds have kept the tradition going through adherence to the breed 'standards'. Although docking is not a written requirement for any breed in Australia, show judges, breeders, kennel councils and breed organisations continue to perpetuate this painful practice. Breeders and owners who prefer docked dogs need to change their attitude and put the welfare of their dogs before their outdated traditions. 

The weight of opposition to tail docking outside this tiny community is now considerable. The Australian Veterinary Association is strongly opposed to tail docking on the grounds that it is an unnecessary surgical procedure and contrary to the welfare of dogs. The National Consultative Committee for Animal Welfare (which advises the federal government on animal welfare issues) is also opposed to tail docking because it serves no practical purpose and may compromise the welfare of animals. The RSPCA has long been opposed to tail docking for the same reasons. The change in national legislation to ban tail docking from 1 April 2004 is a huge step forward for the welfare of our closest companions.


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## inthegrass (Jun 4, 2007)

it could always loose its tail in an accident!.
cheers.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

why would someone remove a dogs tail?? the only reason i can think of is for fighting purposes!! dogs were born with tails for a reason!!!


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## Bryony (Jun 4, 2007)

Forensick said:


> i always thought it was illegal, wihtout medical reason.
> 
> but seems a lot of roti pups must have tail infections....


 
There is a lot of backyard tail docking still going on and since the laws are not generally enforced....there still is tail docking


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## Bryony (Jun 4, 2007)

All the rotties i know that have tails are so much more happy


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## wood_nymph (Jun 4, 2007)

definatley illigeal to cut anything off in NSW, that's ears tails and cat wiskers (why someone would do that i don't know) the law was passed in 2005 i think because it was deemed of no valid medical value that and some breeders were doing it in their backyard instead of going to the vet


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## Forensick (Jun 4, 2007)

lists of recent tail docking prosecutions

http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/images/Media%20Releases/court_case_jones_tail_docking.pdf

but yeah, breeders licences should be revoked, and their animals confiscated if they are found to dock puppies tails...

roti tails are cute too


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## Forensick (Jun 4, 2007)

wood_nymph said:


> definatley illigeal to cut anything off in NSW, that's ears tails and cat wiskers (why someone would do that i don't know) the law was passed in 2005 i think because it was deemed of no valid medical value that and some breeders were doing it in their backyard instead of going to the vet



april 2004, in all states and territories


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## MoreliaMatt (Jun 4, 2007)

i was under the impression that it was illegal in all states except WA.....


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

ive heard some vets still do it in WA aswell.
If it was that cruel and painful im sure they would ban it for every animal, it's done to sheep, cattle and pigs?
its just like being circumcised, why have'nt they outlawed that?


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## grimbeny (Jun 4, 2007)

I have no idea why they dont outlaw circumcision. They get a young baby and a totaly un medically qualified priest to cut part of the kids dick off. Religion makes ppl do crazy things.


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## whatsup (Jun 4, 2007)

bloody greenies


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> ive heard some vets still do it in WA aswell.
> If it was that cruel and painful im sure they would ban it for every animal, it's done to sheep, cattle and pigs?
> its just like being circumcised, why have'nt they outlawed that?



One a weiner does not have bone in it (at that age anyway  ) 
Two, the tail is connected to the spinal cord!!
three, a tail aids in the balance of dogs, you can see this in our whippet when its running at 60kph

slighly different to a small piece of skin!!!!


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> Religion makes ppl do crazy things.


my thoughts exactly!!!
a world with out religion would be a very peaceful place!!! thats why i am not religious


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## grimbeny (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> my thoughts exactly!!!
> a world with out religion would be a very peaceful place!!! thats why i am not religious



Same im a proud atheist


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## da_donkey (Jun 4, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> I have no idea why they dont outlaw circumcision. They get a young baby and a totaly un medically qualified priest to cut part of the kids dick off. Religion makes ppl do crazy things.


 
Umm im pretty sure a doctor does it (unless maybe jewish people)

And plus the upside to circumcision, is that girls go crazy over anything thats 10% off :lol: 

Donk


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## newtosnakes (Jun 4, 2007)

donk gets quote of the day for that one!!! Rolling on the floor in hysterics...... love it.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

many dogs live happy, healthy lives without tails. many people dont race dogs, so balance at 60kms isnt an issue.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> my thoughts exactly!!!
> a world with out religion would be a very peaceful place!!! thats why i am not religious



yes agree, many conflicts have been over religion.


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## Bakes (Jun 4, 2007)

Amazing how people get all worked up over docking dogs. Now I'm pretty sure a lambs tail is still connected to the spinal cord same as a dog. What about dehorning cattle? Ever seen that? I have, a bit of an eye opener to it was. And all because the live cattle exported wish them to be dehorned. Where are the RSPCA there? Will they take on the sheep and cattle industry? No bloody way. I have no respect for the RSPCA or the goose that runs it. 

To dock a new born pups tail is fairley painless. It may sting for a moment or two but thats it. In a few moments they are back suckling on mum with out a thought to what just happened.


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## Inkslinger (Jun 4, 2007)

Originally Posted by *whiteyluvsrum* 

 
_ive heard some vets still do it in WA aswell.
If it was that cruel and painful im sure they would ban it for every animal, it's done to sheep, cattle and pigs?
its just like being circumcised, why have'nt they outlawed that?

Have you ever seen a male infant being circumcised?

I have (not mine by the way) no pain killer the screams and crying are heart breaking sure they get over it may not have a memory of it but why do it in the first place !!

Biggest reason Dads Done Well lets do every thing to son thats done to Dad good reason no
Less chance of infections we dont' live in the wilderness Wash properly

Girls go wild for it member posted this What planet are you on mate?? How many girls have you had that have stated this too you? "I go wild for a circumcised penis"

As for Tail docking ear clipping general animal modifications to suit what is visually pleasing to you.... Don't like the look don't buy the animal 
_


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> the tail is connected to the spinal cord!!



so why not ban it for all animals?


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## dragozz (Jun 4, 2007)

On the note of the RSPCA and their tail docking view-some breeders have continued to perform tail docking, they have been taken to court and NOT ONCE could the RSPCA prove that their tail docking techniques were cruel. I think that it is a personal choice that should be left to the breeders (this does not include backyard breeders that have no clue about tail docking). Breeds that have their tails docked are done so for a reason. 

It must be understood that since tail docking has been performed for such a long time on some breeds, their spines are not always suitable to handle the pressure of the long wagging tail.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

Bakes said:


> To dock a new born pups tail is fairley painless. It may sting for a moment or two but thats it. In a few moments they are back suckling on mum with out a thought to what just happened.



Oh so you obviously have had your tail cut off and can tell us its not that painful!! well that changed my mind!!!

my whippet was lucky enough to break his tail at a young age, try telling him it only hurt for a moment. 

as for 'not all dog race', i have yet too see a dog that doesnt run!!


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## Saz (Jun 4, 2007)

http://www.cdb.org/ausvet.htm


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## grimbeny (Jun 4, 2007)

Maybe it should be banned for all animals however as Bakes stated it would be a very difficult process to take on the entire wool industry just for sheep and in this case it is probably beneficial for the health of the sheep. I dont really know the industry though. If their is no reason to do it for your dog other than visually i really dont see why you should 

"_Don't like the look don't buy the animal"_


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

dragozz said:


> It must be understood that since tail docking has been performed for such a long time on some breeds, their spines are not always suitable to handle the pressure of the long wagging tail.



CRAP!!!! I suggest you talk to a PROPER vet before making a statement as such!!!


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## da_donkey (Jun 4, 2007)

_Girls go wild for it member posted this What planet are you on mate?? How many girls have you had that have stated this too you? "I go wild for a circumcised penis"_

_Gezz inky, have a decaff or somthing._

_It was a joke, as in "girls go crazy over anything thats 10% off"_ its a punn "shopping, 10% discount, bargain".

I thought that was pretty obvious 

Donk


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## gosforddreaming (Jun 4, 2007)

why would someone remove a dogs tail ??



why would someone remover there childs foreskin??


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

"dont want there tail docked, dont get it done"


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## grimbeny (Jun 4, 2007)

dragozz that doesnt really fit the current theory of evolution. Their needs to be a reason for dogs to develope weak spines other than they just dont have one.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> as for 'not all dog race', i have yet too see a dog that doesnt run!!


i have yet seen a dog with its tail docked fall over after losing balance whilst running!!


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## bjbk18 (Jun 4, 2007)

illegal and cruel should not be done!!!


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> "dont want there tail docked, dont get it done"


see the problem with that is that dogs cant talk!! Why should a selfish owner decide to chop off its tail as they think the dog would look better without it!


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## gosforddreaming (Jun 4, 2007)

if any of you have seen the ass end of a lamb eaten away by magots while its still walking around you would very quickly understand why thay do it to lambs,,,i dont see why thay need to do it dog thought , its up there with getting your dog tattoed


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> i have yet seen a dog with its tail docked fall over after losing balance whilst running!!



very true but you will note that it aids in there balance!!!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

because that person "owns" it, if only they didnt outlaw ear cropping aswell.


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## Forensick (Jun 4, 2007)

dragozz said:


> On the note of the RSPCA and their tail docking view-some breeders have continued to perform tail docking, they have been taken to court and NOT ONCE could the RSPCA prove that their tail docking techniques were cruel. I think that it is a personal choice that should be left to the breeders (this does not include backyard breeders that have no clue about tail docking). Breeds that have their tails docked are done so for a reason.
> 
> It must be understood that since tail docking has been performed for such a long time on some breeds, their spines are not always suitable to handle the pressure of the long wagging tail.



it has been preformed for such along time for ASTHETIC reasons... nothing else.
and i believe they prove its cruel by people not actually using any aenesthetics.
coz i imagine pushing a knife through your spine and spraying detol on it after constitutes "painful"


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> because that person "owns" it, if only they didnt outlaw ear cropping aswell.



you have psychological problems if you believe you can own a living thing and do what ever you want to it


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

gosforddreaming said:


> i dont see why thay need to do it


its the same reason you keep a reptile in an enclosure, because you want too.


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## da_donkey (Jun 4, 2007)

So are you getting a pitty or a doberman?

donk


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> its the same reason you keep a reptile in an enclosure, because you want too.



so according to this logic, you shouldnt keep a dog in a yard, a child in a house??


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

i may have psychological problems but in the end its still the persons choice.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

doberman lover


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> i may have psychological problems but in the end its still the persons choice.



worrying!!! thats all I can say!!


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## da_donkey (Jun 4, 2007)

Yeah they are awsome dogs

donk


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> you have psychological problems if you believe you can own a living thing and do what ever you want to it



ok, why is the term "dog owner" and "cat owner" used? that was the same context i was inplying.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> ok, why is the term "dog owner" and "cat owner" used? that was the same context i was inplying.



What would you call it then? its a given term to indicate a person posses it!! 
being an owner does not give you the right to put a living thing through pain to make yourself feel better about the asthetics of the animal!!!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> so according to this logic, you shouldnt keep a dog in a yard, a child in a house??



no you have interpreted my sentence wrong. 
Why do people keep animals, because they want to. there is no need to keep animals at all.
same reason as for docking, because people want too.
thats was the point i was trying to make.


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## Inkslinger (Jun 4, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> _Girls go wild for it member posted this What planet are you on mate?? How many girls have you had that have stated this too you? "I go wild for a circumcised penis"_
> 
> _Gezz inky, have a decaff or somthing._
> 
> ...



Was expecting JOKES in a serious thread have a decaff or something? Perhaps you should treat threads with the respect they deserve !!_ "Get a brain transplant or something" Just joking _


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## mrboajangles (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> no you have interpreted my sentence wrong.
> Why do people keep animals, because they want to. there is no need to keep animals at all.
> same reason as for docking, because people want too.
> thats was the point i was trying to make.



When a person keeps a animal, i would like to think they are infact doing that animal a favour by giving it a good, happy ,healthy life.
If this is not the case they should not be kept!
I will end this arguement here as I dont think there is much point in trying to talk sense into someone who supports this practice!! that and my missus wants a go on here!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> What would you call it then? its a given term to indicate a person posses it!!
> being an owner does not give you the right to put a living thing through pain to make yourself feel better about the asthetics of the animal!!!



ok, so you have never owned a pet? you leave your gates or doors open and animals come and go as they please. you have never payed for a pet then and you certainly dont have any paperwork to prove you keep anything? because you do not "own" any animal.

well it dosen't give you the right legally now in australia but it did before 2004 in australia and many other people in many other contries decades before. how do you know its painfull or not? its already been said that dogs can't talk.


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## da_donkey (Jun 4, 2007)

Inkslinger said:


> Was expecting JOKES in a serious thread have a decaff or something? Perhaps you should treat threads with the respect they deserve !!_ "Get a brain transplant or something" Just joking _


 
Fair enough mate,.

Donk


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## Inkslinger (Jun 4, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> ok, so you have never owned a pet? you leave your gates or doors open and animals come and go as they please. you have never payed for a pet then and you certainly dont have any paperwork to prove you keep anything? because you do not "own" any animal.
> 
> well it dosen't give you the right legally now in australia but it did before 2004 in australia and many other people in many other contries decades before. how do you know its painfull or not? its already been said that dogs can't talk.




PAINFULL YOU BET Shrieking vocolisations may not be talking but let you know pain is happening. If you were having your finger cut off big chance you couldn't talk but would make a vocolisation of some sort

If you are going to take the con side in an argument at least be sure of your point before making it.

Old saying _"It is better to remain silent than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"_

_The basic nervous system of a dog is fully developed at birth and the available evidence indicates that puppies have similar, if not increased, sensitivity to pain as adult dogs. Docking a puppy's tail involves cutting through muscles, tendons, up to seven pairs of highly sensitive nerves and severing bone and cartilage connections. Tail docking is usually carried out without any anaesthesia. Puppies give repeated intense shrieking vocalisations the moment the tail is cut off and during stitching of the wound, indicating that they experience substantial pain. Inflammation and damage to the tissues also cause ongoing pain while the wound heals._


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## Forensick (Jun 4, 2007)

silly Inkslinger....

thats not pain... its pleasure... don't you know they need their tails docked? 
if the dog could speak it'd say "nah its fine, cut through my spine... how COULD it hurt? no nerves there or nothing"


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## Wrasse (Jun 4, 2007)

gosforddreaming said:


> why would someone remove a dogs tail ??
> 
> 
> 
> why would someone remover there childs foreskin??


 
Why would someone chop down a perfectly healthy tree, or dam a river when it isn't really neccessary, or pierce the ears of a baby, or spray their home for spiders... Or my personal favourite, (performed the world over bymost of the same people that will sook about docking a tail/trimming ears/removing a foreskin)... trick a happy fish into taking a mouthful of barbed metal then drag it around the ocean/river and hold it up by said hook, as it suffocates out of the water.

Hypocrites, everyone.

Now excuse me while I go cry in a corner.


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## Inkslinger (Jun 4, 2007)

Forensick said:


> silly Inkslinger....
> 
> thats not pain... its pleasure... don't you know they need their tails docked?
> if the dog could speak it'd say "nah its fine, cut through my spine... how COULD it hurt? no nerves there or nothing"




Your correct of course how stupid of me I must research my answers more before I just post willy nilly as for common sense it isnt' that common so wont even go there:lol:


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## orsm (Jun 4, 2007)

Wrasse said:


> Hypocrites, everyone.



Good point Wrasse.


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## Inkslinger (Jun 4, 2007)

Wrasse said:


> Why would someone chop down a perfectly healthy tree, or dam a river when it isn't really neccessary, or pierce the ears of a baby, or spray their home for spiders... Or my personal favourite, (performed the world over bymost of the same people that will sook about docking a tail/trimming ears/removing a foreskin)... trick a happy fish into taking a mouthful of barbed metal then drag it around the ocean/river and hold it up by said hook, as it suffocates out of the water.
> 
> Hypocrites, everyone.
> 
> Now excuse me while I go cry in a corner.



Can answer one of those
You know my trade, I pierced my childrens ears at 2 weeks of age neither woke up during the process no seditives etc were given, luck no, being experienced at the procedure understanding the human anatomy and a few other things helps. As for reasons they were not just done for the look no religous etc. 
The other piercings my children have since had done they have requested some they have said were mildly painful others they didn't feel.

Yes fish feel pain, Yes I have caught and eaten fish usually when I am out bush, I like fresh food and I am not a vegetarian. I do not fish hunt etc for fun.


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## gosforddreaming (Jun 4, 2007)

Hypocrites, everyone.

Now excuse me while I go cry in a corner.
__________________
i only asked a simple ?? nothing hypicritcal about it .. go and have your cry and wipe the poo from your chin while your there ....


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## Midol (Jun 4, 2007)

Wow.

Most breeds that get their tails docked were docked for a reason - usually health reasons.

Terriers got done because they are rat hunters and snap and get infected.

mrboajangles: Whippets are not a docked breed so it doesn't matter what your whippet does with its tail.


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## Midol (Jun 4, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> When a person keeps a animal, i would like to think they are infact doing that animal a favour by giving it a good, happy ,healthy life.
> If this is not the case they should not be kept!
> I will end this arguement here as I dont think there is much point in trying to talk sense into someone who supports this practice!! that and my missus wants a go on here!



They don't feel it and you haven't proven it yet.

If I own a breed that is prone to breaking it's tail which could lead to a long painful recovery then I'd rather it docked.

Australian Terrier breeders have dropped by over 80% because they can no longer dock and docking was done to ensure that wouldn't happen.


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## Wrasse (Jun 4, 2007)

gosforddreaming said:


> __________________
> i only asked a simple ?? nothing hypicritcal about it .. go and have your cry and wipe the poo from your chin while your there ....


 
I have no idea what question you asked, probably didn't even bother to read your post. My comment was about the whole thread, not one person in particular.

Touch a little nerve there did I ?


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## Wrasse (Jun 4, 2007)

Oh wait... was yours the post I quoted ? Sorry about that, I didn't read the name of the person who wrote it originally, simply used it because you started the questions for me within.

Thanks for that.


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## Recharge (Jun 4, 2007)

> ts just like being circumcised, why have'nt they outlawed that?



because of religion, cleaner and it pulls more chicks 
I can talk, and I am glad I was done woot~ 
but I sure as heck wouldn't like it done as an adult *shiver* ouch! and recovery and stuff...

plus there actually some medical considerations, there have been some studies in several armys and it's pretty much way better in some conditions, far less problems when you can't shower at least every few days.... and hell, it simply looks better  IMO
I haven't met a girl yet who prefers it uncut.. hmm


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## dragozz (Jun 4, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> dragozz that doesnt really fit the current theory of evolution. Their needs to be a reason for dogs to develope weak spines other than they just dont have one.



yes theory this and theory that, I am talking about what is happening in practice. Go talk to breeders that have had breeds with docked tails and now are forced to leave the tails and see what problems are coming up. So yes theory is one thing, practice is another. I would have to say that for breeding a specific breed for at least over a hundred years with tails being docked, I would say that certain traits have developed.

This issue should be left to the registered breeders that dock properly with procedures that must be followed.

Everyone is talking about tail docking, yet its ok to desex? The dog has no say about that too. Come on. 

Also many dogs are subjected to cruelty, others are being put down in pounds if no one selects them for adoption. I don't see that being a vary passionate issue yet it should be seriously brought into attention.


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## Just_Joshin (Jun 4, 2007)

Just for the record people......circumcision is performed primarily for medical reasons. It is done as it makes the penis much cleaner and avoids the possible build up of bacteria which can lead to infection. You can get a couple of conditions for varying reasons in which you are unable to pull your foreskin back and then have to get circumcised much later it life. This can be much more embarrassing if done at older age (my mate had to get it done at 16) then when you are a toddler.

Also it just looks better, lol.


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## Midol (Jun 5, 2007)

Why didn't your mate just clean it?

My kids will never be circumsized because it is cleaner. He can learn to clean it and if he chooses not to and it gets infected then tough luck - his fault. I hope it hurts.


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## Frozenmouse (Jun 5, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> why would someone remove a dogs tail?? the only reason i can think of is for fighting purposes!! dogs were born with tails for a reason!!!


fighting dogs use their tail for ballance as do most animals that are alowed to keep their tail.


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## roadkill1 (Jun 5, 2007)

Now that it is illegal to have tails docked more people do it themselves than ever so how has making it illegal helped. The laws would have made more sense if they were truly worried about the dogs if they only made it illegal to do it yourself. The laws just should of been only a vet could do it. Now that vets cant do it more are being done by doityourselvers. Even though i have seen and even owned dogs that had badly docked tails that were done by vets..They still dock lambs and rams by rubber band of course rams lose more than a tail....


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## roadkill1 (Jun 5, 2007)

Circumcision has medical reasons & as posted earlier i am glad to be done as if something did happen later in life having it done sooner [baby] than later [adult] is defineatly better.Plus it is easy to say to clean it but sometimes can not be done by oneself due to accident ;old age or other medical reasons, Not even nurses think to or will pullback foreskin when washing patients i know as my wife probably saved a old mans penis from rotting away in a nursing home ..Just cause of the smell of rotting flesh was it even noticed.I think most would agree that circumcision is better than having it rot away on you..This is not an isolated incident either.How many chicks not just nurses want to clean an old mans penis at all let alone a uncircumcised one...properly....


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## nickamon (Jun 5, 2007)

One of my mother's friends has Hungarian Viszlas, and they have a third of their tails docked, because apparently the tail tip is fragile and can break easily. I don't know if that's true or if it's an excuse to keep the Viszla look going. At least those dogs have most of their tails left. 



Recharge said:


> I haven't met a girl yet who prefers it uncut.. hmm


 
Well, now you have. How about that? 



Midol said:


> My kids will never be circumsized because it is cleaner. He can learn to clean it


 
I agree.


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## gosforddreaming (Jun 5, 2007)

rubbish , circumcision on humans should be outlawed , do you think this ok to mutilate a female by circumcision ? , it was origanly preformed for religus reasons and we all know how real the bible is , haha, than it was adopted by most people for variing reasons, the fact is boys a born with it on for a reason , its there to protect the head for the penis , how many time have you got your old fellow stuck in your fly ? i know the last time i did i wish i had my foreskin back, 
people are just lazy or thay feel thay cant teach there sons how to clean themselfs , the worst excusie i have heard from a mother as to why she choped her son was because she thinks it looks better ?? , sorry but thats just sick ,, when my boys 3 and 4 ask why my persanol space is differnt i tell them NANA choped it of when i was young for no reason at all ..hehe ....also a uncut penis is a lot more senetive during sex so all us cut guys dont know what were missing out on .....if you live in a cave or are homeless and cant be bothered washing yourself then you will get probs , but in todays wolrd its a tiny number of people that have probs ,how many people get STD,s everyyear, uncut men have a lot less chance of getting a heap of differnt STD,s,, my uncle had his done at 74 years old and he wished he never had to , he says it has stuffed his sex life.....kids ( boys) are born with there hands on the penises for a reason my kids spend half the day playing with themselfs , because its ment to be that way, without know it thay clean there own penis all day long .


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## Recharge (Jun 5, 2007)

not really, I haven't actually met you ;P heh


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## Midol (Jun 5, 2007)

nickamon said:


> One of my mother's friends has Hungarian Viszlas, and they have a third of their tails docked, because apparently the tail tip is fragile and can break easily. I don't know if that's true or if it's an excuse to keep the Viszla look going. At least those dogs have most of their tails left.




Your mums friend is right - not docking their tails is cruel as it leads to problems further in life. Problem is now they can't dock them at birth so they have to wait till something goes wrong and have major surgery.





Perhaps someone should start a new thread on circumcision so that this thread doesn't get closed?


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## setkeh (Jun 5, 2007)

my rottie has a tail and he is the most beautiful dog i dont see the point in docking tails it just makes them angry violent animals when they grow up


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## Midol (Jun 5, 2007)

setkeh said:


> my rottie has a tail and he is the most beautiful dog i dont see the point in docking tails it just makes them angry violent animals when they grow up



Wow. Care to supply me with proof that a docked tail makes them angry and violent?

Rotties tales were docked because they are cattle dogs - you know, a working breed? The cattle would stop on their tails and such and the tails would get caked in cow crap causing infections so the tail was docked for hygiene reasons.

Believe it or not some people still do use rotties for farm work.


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## Forensick (Jun 5, 2007)

given a rotis tail curls over their back, i'd be impressed if their tail was stepped on....

roti tails were docked because they look cute and kinda stupid with it...
and given their are seen as a "aggressive" gaurd dog, it ruined their image


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## ALLANA (Jun 5, 2007)

It's illegal to dock a dogs tail unless it is for medical reasons (I'm sure people could find a million). In the ABS society we don't allow tail docking as all tail types are accepted. Of course a lot of our bulldogs are born with a screw tail so do not need docking anyhow. There is some geniune reasons behind a dog getting it's tail docked (and a screw tail is actually a deformed tail). I beleive from some articles I read on breeds like rotties etc the docking of there tail was actually to stop hip problems but how tru that is I don't know. The main reason docking was banned was because too many breeders were performing it themselves without propper knowledge on how to go about it in a safe and humane manner (eg cutting tails to short) which meant a dog was left with a protruding tail bone (oviously not comfertable). I think if it needs to be done for medicle reasons and it's preformed at a very very young age by a profesional then it's fine but other than that no.

Allana


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## salebrosus (Jun 5, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Pretty sure it is against the law now, same as ear clipping.
> 
> In NSW anyway
> 
> Donk



When did this law take effect? I know when i was working as a vet nurse in 2002 it was pretty common practice. It was the only thing that eally made me sick along with clipping of the ears and the removal of dew claws. None were done with anaesthetic and the first time i saw it i had nightmares of the puppies screaming as it was being done. Clipping of the pinna and tail docking are purely cosmetic- dogs like rotties have beautiful tails. Nothing better than seeing your dog wagging his tail when he sees you get home from work. Just my opinion.

Simone.


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## da_donkey (Jun 5, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> When did this law take effect? I know when i was working as a vet nurse in 2002 it was pretty common practice. It was the only thing that eally made me sick along with clipping of the ears and the removal of dew claws. None were done with anaesthetic and the first time i saw it i had nightmares of the puppies screaming as it was being done. Clipping of the pinna and tail docking are purely cosmetic- dogs like rotties have beautiful tails. Nothing better than seeing your dog wagging his tail when he sees you get home from work. Just my opinion.
> 
> Simone.


 
I think it was 2004

donk


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## salebrosus (Jun 5, 2007)

Thanks donk- unfortunately it wasn't soon enough for me.
I have no issue with it for medical reasons and with anaesthetic......it does make me sick when it's done for cosmetic purposes.

Simone.


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## Midol (Jun 5, 2007)

Does Medical reasons include non-immediate threats, ie, an aust. terrier undocked faces the very real risk of snapping its tail at an older age and having to go through painful, major surgery to get it fixed.

Errr. John. Docking is very rarely done for cosmetic reasons... And dew claws are also a huge danger to working dogs...

I hate it when people ignore the dangers that working dogs face. YOUR PET might not need a docked tail and dew claws clipped but many working dogs do - sighthounds included.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 5, 2007)

Inkslinger said:


> PAINFULL YOU BET Shrieking vocolisations may not be talking but let you know pain is happening. If you were having your finger cut off big chance you couldn't talk but would make a vocolisation of some sort
> 
> If you are going to take the con side in an argument at least be sure of your point before making it.
> 
> ...



i did research mate, you just said yourself you peirce baby's ears without them waking up.
why cant it be done the same way?
a qoute, "Docking is carried out when puppies are tiny. Their eyes are not yet open and long experience indicates that carried out correctly, the procedure causes no pain or discomfort. Indeed, some puppies which are docked whilst they are asleep, do not even wake up. After docking, puppies will immediately return to their dam to feed, and there is no evidence that development or weight gain is in any way arrested by the docking procedure. "
this is the website i pulled it from-http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/case4dock.html


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## salebrosus (Jun 5, 2007)

Midol said:


> Does Medical reasons include non-immediate threats, ie, an aust. terrier undocked faces the very real risk of snapping its tail at an older age and having to go through painful, major surgery to get it fixed.
> 
> Errr. John. Docking is very rarely done for cosmetic reasons... And dew claws are also a huge danger to working dogs...
> 
> I hate it when people ignore the dangers that working dogs face. YOUR PET might not need a docked tail and dew claws clipped but many working dogs do - sighthounds included.



As i said Midol, for medical reasons. AS i already said "I have no issue with it for medical reasons and with anaesthetic......it does make me sick when it's done for cosmetic purposes."
Note that i did not include dew claws in that section of my argument. I have seen the damage dew claws can cause. Ever seen how removal of dew claws is done?????? Big pair of shears cutting them off then a cordeuriser (burnt) to stem the blood flow then stitched- no pain killers nothing. Ever heard the pup scream??????????? The same shears were used to cut the pups tails off byt the vet i worked for- and believe me, those puppies screamed.

AND as i worked in a veterinary clinic i am well informed enough to say that every dog that had it's tail docked AT THE CLINIC I WORKED IN (suburbia) was done purely for cosmetic purposes. I have family who own cattle and sheep stations and dock the tails on their working dogs, so i understand why it has to be done for working dogs, those in suburbia or used in dog shows i don't.

Simone.


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## mrmikk (Jun 5, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> ive heard some vets still do it in WA aswell.
> If it was that cruel and painful im sure they would ban it for every animal, it's done to sheep, cattle and pigs?
> its just like being circumcised, why have'nt they outlawed that?


 
Don't know about pigs, cattle don't generally have their tails docked, and as for sheep, tail docking and mulesing are done to stop the animal getting fly blown, which is a lot worse than the procedure of docking and mulesing.


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## salebrosus (Jun 5, 2007)

A fly blown animal will make even the strongest spew. Horrendous.

Simone.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 5, 2007)

mrmikk said:


> Don't know about pigs, cattle don't generally have their tails docked, and as for sheep, tail docking and mulesing are done to stop the animal getting fly blown, which is a lot worse than the procedure of docking and mulesing.



you just proved my point that tail docking is not that bad.
tails are dock from dairy cattle to lesson the chance of mastitis.
tails are docked from pigs, to prevent tail biting.


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## Midol (Jun 5, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> As i said Midol, for medical reasons. AS i already said "I have no issue with it for medical reasons and with anaesthetic......it does make me sick when it's done for cosmetic purposes."
> Note that i did not include dew claws in that section of my argument. I have seen the damage dew claws can cause. Ever seen how removal of dew claws is done?????? Big pair of shears cutting them off then a cordeuriser (burnt) to stem the blood flow then stitched- no pain killers nothing. Ever heard the pup scream??????????? The same shears were used to cut the pups tails off byt the vet i worked for- and believe me, those puppies screamed.
> 
> AND as i worked in a veterinary clinic i am well informed enough to say that every dog that had it's tail docked AT THE CLINIC I WORKED IN (suburbia) was done purely for cosmetic purposes. I have family who own cattle and sheep stations and dock the tails on their working dogs, so i understand why it has to be done for working dogs, those in suburbia or used in dog shows i don't.
> ...



The second half of the post was for John 

A lot of people when they say medical reasons only include medical reasons that are happening right now, so would disapprove of tail docking for future reasons.

I personally see no reason why someone in suburbia would dock their dogs tails but I do not agree with an out right ban.

Though a curious breed is an Australian Terrier, it is a working breed and many people in suburbia buy it as a working breed - pest extermination.


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## Forensick (Jun 5, 2007)

the RSPCA includes in its fines vets who remove tails for "medical" reasons that are BS.

most recent is a case of a vet removing a roti tail at birth for "future complications"


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## Miss B (Jun 5, 2007)

I don't really have a problem with tail docking (though, having had several Dobermanns as a child, I may be biased). So long as it is done by a vet, under proper anaesthetic, I don't see how it is any more cruel/painful than spaying or neutering. 

Call me superficial, but I just think that Dobermanns (and certain other breeds) with long tails just look silly. In fact, I wish we were allowed to crop ears in Australia also. The American Dobermanns with cropped tails and ears look fantastic, imho.


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## Midol (Jun 5, 2007)

Cropped ears I find it hard to agree with. There aren't many practical reasons why it should be done. Plus it hurts for longer than a docked tail.


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## Miss B (Jun 5, 2007)

Yeah I just think they look good. But the fact that it is not allowed here in Oz doesn't really bother me. The American Dobies just look kinda cool. I agree that it has very little practical purpose though, other than to give guard dogs that hardcore "my-bite-is-MUCH-worse-than-my-bark" look!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 5, 2007)

the yank defence force do it on there's to help there hearing and to make them look tougher.


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## Midol (Jun 5, 2007)

You don't need to convince me that it looks tougher  I agree with that 

Though I'd rather come up against a cropped barking seemingly aggressive dobe than one that stands his ground and stays silent.

You can easily tell which one has been professionally trained. 99.9% of dogs would run away if confronted - they might initially bark but if you threaten them they get confused and run.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 5, 2007)

Where do i start this thread has moved forward a couple of pages since i last looked at it.
someone said i have yet to prove that it hurts being them while being docked, Pinch a dogs tail it will yelp, OH what it has feeling there!!! 
as for someone talking about the ownership of pets and saying do you let them come and go as they want?? If someone has a child, do they own them? NO and if you think you do, I feel sorry for the kid because it is prob being abused!!! 
Comparing this subject to catching fish, getting ears pierced etc, crap!! I would only catch fish to eat them, thats called the food chain!!! I would never get a kids ear pierced because i think it looks good, 
as for getting animals desexed, that is to stop animals being dumped due to people not wanting puppies kittens etc, very responsible!! oh and I believe the procedure is done properly by a VET! if they want them done they can do that as its there choice to go through the pain!!
Alot of animals have been around longer then we have, do you think they have tails and ears for a reason?? 
By the way you will find most good vets will not dock tails for cosmetic reasons! It is looked down on!! 
oh and as for saying docking the tail stops them getting stood on by cattle etc. why do cattle dogs not get their tails docked?? unless the tail actually lays on the ground there is no way it could be stood on while the dog is standing!!!


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## mrboajangles (Jun 5, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> the yank defence force do it on there's to help there hearing and to make them look tougher.



Well thats a good example!!! The yanks do it!!! My dads police dogs had their ears and tales, they still look tough!!!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 5, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> Well thats a good example!!! The yanks do it!!! My dads police dogs had their ears and tales, they still look tough!!!



thats nice, i think you should pass that onto the yanks then.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 5, 2007)

in the end, everyone has there views on it. I know i wont be converted, and i wouldn't lose any sleep from docking and cropping.
if you dont agree with it, dont do it. its that simple.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 5, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> in the end, everyone has there views on it. I know i wont be converted, and i wouldn't lose any sleep from docking and cropping.
> if you dont agree with it, dont do it. its that simple.



SAD!!! I should also point out that its illegal, so your last statement shows you have a disregard for our law, and dont think it applies to you just because you think its ok to deform your dog to make it look tough!! Its amazing how selfish humans can be!!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 5, 2007)

violins are playing jangles.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jun 5, 2007)

I know a guy who has his ears cropped into points..he's in a show though , he swallows stuff and breaths fire to..im dead against circumcising dogs ..


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## Lozza (Jun 5, 2007)

we used to breed Australian Terriers and docked their tails and removed the dew claws when a few days old. If its done properly (using correct equipment- not scissors or a rubber band) in the right spot at the right age its only a few minutes of pain - its the same as mulesing or cutting a bull calf's nuts out.
I never heard of it becoming illegal but we did stop breeding before 2004.

It doesnt cause aggressive behaviour either -that is mainly caused by people mistreating their dogs & training them to be "attack dogs".


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## Midol (Jun 6, 2007)

Where do i start this thread has moved forward a couple of pages since i last looked at it.
someone said i have yet to prove that it hurts being them while being docked, Pinch a dogs tail it will yelp, OH what it has feeling there!!! 
There is a huge difference between a newborn and a puppy.

as for someone talking about the ownership of pets and saying do you let them come and go as they want?? If someone has a child, do they own them? NO and if you think you do, I feel sorry for the kid because it is prob being abused!!! 
Legally I own my dog. 

Comparing this subject to catching fish, getting ears pierced etc, crap!! I would only catch fish to eat them, thats called the food chain!!! I would never get a kids ear pierced because i think it looks good, 
Yeah I got nothing. I didn't really see the comparisons being drawn.

as for getting animals desexed, that is to stop animals being dumped due to people not wanting puppies kittens etc, very responsible!! oh and I believe the procedure is done properly by a VET! if they want them done they can do that as its there choice to go through the pain!!
Huh? It's the animals choice? My dog didn't tell me to. But I agree with - responsible pet ownership is getting your dog desexed

Alot of animals have been around longer then we have, do you think they have tails and ears for a reason?? 
We made domestic dogs.

By the way you will find most good vets will not dock tails for cosmetic reasons! It is looked down on!! 
oh and as for saying docking the tail stops them getting stood on by cattle etc. why do cattle dogs not get their tails docked?? unless the tail actually lays on the ground there is no way it could be stood on while the dog is standing!!!
LMAO. I can tell you've never had contact with working dogs or the things they do. Stop spewing forth crap. Some of your points are valid but this one is not.


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## Serpant_Lady (Jun 6, 2007)

Bakes said:


> Amazing how people get all worked up over docking dogs. Now I'm pretty sure a lambs tail is still connected to the spinal cord same as a dog. What about dehorning cattle? Ever seen that? I have, a bit of an eye opener to it was. And all because the live cattle exported wish them to be dehorned. Where are the RSPCA there? Will they take on the sheep and cattle industry? No bloody way. I have no respect for the RSPCA or the goose that runs it.
> 
> To dock a new born pups tail is fairley painless. It may sting for a moment or two but thats it. In a few moments they are back suckling on mum with out a thought to what just happened.



No because it is a losing battle. The Government would never ban anything that could potentially harm our export market in such a way. And I dont agree with lambs tails but they can get rot and maggots in them ect.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 6, 2007)

Midol said:


> Where do i start this thread has moved forward a couple of pages since i last looked at it.
> someone said i have yet to prove that it hurts being them while being docked, Pinch a dogs tail it will yelp, OH what it has feeling there!!!
> There is a huge difference between a newborn and a puppy.
> 
> ...



the bit with their choice was ment to be after the kids getting their ears pierced! my bad.
as for the working dogs, yes i dont live on a farm, But i believe most working dogs are kelpies, cattle dogs etc, neither of them usually have their tails docked, so why would another dog working with cattle need the same, and can you explain to me how a tail can be stood on if it isnt touching the ground? Suprisingly no one has ever stood on my fingers when i have been walking!!! the only way i can see there tails being stood on is if the cow or something tramples the dog in which case the tail may be the least of its worries!!
Also Italian Greyhounds quite often break legs running etc, should we amputate these at birth to avoid this problem at a later date. 
Oh and thank you for agreeing with me on somethings


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## Inkslinger (Jun 6, 2007)

Don't waste your time mate!! most is opinion not fact and people have come to believe their own opinions. Tell the lie often enough and it becomes the truth. Reason thats what we want to believe, much easier than facing the fact that we could be wrong.


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## Midol (Jun 6, 2007)

Kelpies aren't a breed I am talking about - they're tails are designed different.

Rottweilers are the breed I am talking about for farm work. They fall over and their tails get squished.

Either way, my main argument is with Australian Terriers as they are a working breed. Not farm work but pest extermination.


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## Inkslinger (Jun 6, 2007)

Midol said:


> Kelpies aren't a breed I am talking about - they're tails are designed different.
> 
> Rottweilers are the breed I am talking about for farm work. They fall over and their tails get squished.
> 
> Either way, my main argument is with Australian Terriers as they are a working breed. Not farm work but pest extermination.




Rotties were originally bred to gaurd cattle not round them up you moron do your home work 

Another is that as working dogs they were bobbed to avoid a "tail tax" (the method used to count livestock being driven to market was to count tails). Today, many owners in U.S. decide to have the tails removed soon after the puppy's birth for purely cosmetic reasons.

The breed is an ancient one, and its history stretches back to the Roman Empire. In those times, the legions traveled with their meat on the hoof and required the assistance of working dogs to guard the cattle. One route the army traveled was through Württemberg and on to the small market town of Rottweil.The principal ancestors of the first Rottweilers during this time was supposed to be the Roman war dog, local sheepdogs the army met on its travels, and dogs with molosser appearance coming from England and The Netherlands.


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## dragozz (Jun 6, 2007)

I think it is quiet obvious that we are all split on the issue. I think that everyone agrees that tail docking if done should be done properly and not at home simply using scissors etc. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I agree with tail docking, some others do too, others don't. 

but as said before some of you agree with desexing, yes it is a good option if you do not plan to breed, but then the argument is - its good ownership for prevention and etc, well for some tail docking is a good prevention too. Still the dog has no say in it. I think that the law should allow for registered breeders to decide if the pups tails will be docked or not. 

Whether the law allows it or doesnt, there will always be people who do not care and will dock the tail at the wrong time, with the wrong equipment in an inappropriate way. At least when it was allowed, the vets could do it properly.


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## Midol (Jun 6, 2007)

Inkslinger said:


> Rotties were originally bred to gaurd cattle not round them up you moron do your home work
> 
> Another is that as working dogs they were bobbed to avoid a "tail tax" (the method used to count livestock being driven to market was to count tails). Today, many owners in U.S. decide to have the tails removed soon after the puppy's birth for purely cosmetic reasons.
> 
> The breed is an ancient one, and its history stretches back to the Roman Empire. In those times, the legions traveled with their meat on the hoof and required the assistance of working dogs to guard the cattle. One route the army traveled was through Württemberg and on to the small market town of Rottweil.The principal ancestors of the first Rottweilers during this time was supposed to be the Roman war dog, local sheepdogs the army met on its travels, and dogs with molosser appearance coming from England and The Netherlands.



Ignoring the personal insult (against forum rules):




> The transition from *Roman herding dog* to the dog we know today as the Rottweiler can be attributed to the ambitions of the Roman Emperors to conquer Europe. Very large armies were required for these expeditions and the logistics of feeding that number of men became a major consideration. No means of refrigeration existed which meant that the meat for the soldiers had to accompany the troops "on the hoof." The services of a dog capable of keeping the herd intact during the long march were needed. The above-described "Mastiff-type" was admirably suited to both that job and the additional responsibility of guarding the supply dumps at night.


- http://www.wcrc.org.au/hist.htm



> The Rottweiler is considered to be one of the oldest breeds of dog. Its origin goes back to Roman times.* These dogs were kept as herder or driving dogs*. They marched over the Alps with the Roman legions, protecting the humans and driving their cattle. In the region of Rottweil, these dogs met and mixed with the native dogs in a natural crossing.
> 
> The main task of the Rottweiler now *became the driving and guarding of the herds of cattle *and the defence of their masters and their property. This breed acquired its name from the old free city of Rottweil, and became known as the "Rottweil butchers dog". The butchers bred this type of dog purely for performance and usefulness. In due course, a first rate watch and driving dog evolved which could be used as a draught dog.


- http://www.ankc.aust.com/rottweil.html


Sorry, the rottweiler club of WA and the Australian National Kennel Council have more authority than you on this issue. Would you like me to get quotes from other website supporting the fact that Rottweilers are farm/herding dogs (ps - driving is a form of herding).


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## Oskorei (Jun 6, 2007)

> Naturally, Rottweilers are a tailed dog. There are at least two different explanations as to why tails were originally bobbed. One version is that tails were originally removed to prevent breakage and infection that would occur when the tail became covered in mud and other debris collected from pastures and livestock.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweiler


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## Oskorei (Jun 6, 2007)

i personally dont see a problem with tail docking, just as long as its done professionally


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## Midol (Jun 6, 2007)

Oskorei - that pretty much agrees with me  Though I include tails being trampled. Rare but it does happen.


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## Forensick (Jun 6, 2007)

actually Midol, the RSPCA seems to directly contradict the rotweiller club...
could it have anything to do with that particular club prefering the aesthetic of a docked tail, hence clinging to evidence that vets don't agree with?

that doesn't make sense, people never distort the truth to defend themselves when there is fact dismissing their arguements and laws against it.

like midol agree'd with me in another thread, the RSPCA need the power to enforce the laws they are s'posed to.
if they could do that we wouldn't have this problem, because vets that did it would lose their licences and breeder would lose their stock. and all dogs would have tails...
aswell as no more pet shop dogs and people setting cats on fire and getting a $50 fine


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## Midol (Jun 6, 2007)

Forensick said:


> actually Midol, the RSPCA seems to directly contradict the rotweiller club...
> could it have anything to do with that particular club prefering the aesthetic of a docked tail, hence clinging to evidence that vets don't agree with?
> 
> that doesn't make sense, people never distort the truth to defend themselves when there is fact dismissing their arguements and laws against it.
> ...



I don't suport the RSPCA when it comes to some things to do with dogs - tail docking is one of them. The RSPCA also supports BSL.

They support training methods that can injure a dog for life (haltis) and want prong collars banned because it pinches the skin (these can cause damage if used wrong though).

It is against the law and for that reason people shouldn't do it BUT I do not agree with the blanket ban on it.


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## Khagan (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, all i have to say on this matter is tail docking may be wrong but how exactly does making it illegal help the animals in anyway? Personally i would rather it be legal via vets so if it is to be done it can be done in a professional and clean way, rather then outlawing it and leaving the only option for people that do want to being the worst for the animal..

Making stuff like this illegal only increases people doing things the bad way.


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## Tsubakai (Jun 7, 2007)

I know I wish I'd had my tail docked at a young age.  Would have had a lot fewer embarassing moments when socialising over the last few years.


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## moosenoose (Jun 7, 2007)

There is a noisy dog somewhere behind the back of my place I wouldn't mind docking at the neck to be honest :twisted: Bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark......, bark, bark, bark, bark......, bark, bark, bark, bark........., bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark 8)


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## JasonL (Jun 7, 2007)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> many dogs live happy, healthy lives without tails. many people dont race dogs, so balance at 60kms isnt an issue.



I've seen dogs live happy lives with three legs, cutting a dogs tail off is only for our own perception, and that will change too if docking is stopped.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 7, 2007)

Putting an animal through any kind of pain to make it look better is not a valid point in this arguement!! Thats like saying speeding should be aloud because its gives you a thrill!!!
as for the point of they are working dogs and it stops the cows etc they are rounding up, stamping on their tails.... How many of you people who want to dock their tail are actually going to use them for this reason?? And i have not seen a rotti used these days for that purpose! Usually a cattle dog or kelpie! 
I love a good debate but this is just crap because its a pointless one in the end!!! You have nothing to back yourself up except for it looks good!!! I hate saying someones opinion is wrong because i think everyone has the right to their own, BUT when an opinion is so utterly stupid with no evidence to back it up, I feel it nessasary to point it out and plainly say YOUR WRONG! Stop being a selfish human being and think about others' (animals) well being instead of your own! OHH and a rottie might look really tough if you put some horns on its' head!!! maybe you could implant some on their skull ay!!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 7, 2007)

it can be done with no pain and its proven. i would only get it done because i think it looks good. no other reason.
just backed myself up.


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## dragozz (Jun 7, 2007)

"BUT when an opinion is so utterly stupid with no evidence to back it up, I feel it nessasary to point it out and plainly say YOUR WRONG! "

I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you won't achieve anything by telling people that their opinion is STUPID and WRONG. I;m sure others think the same thing about your opinion too.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 7, 2007)

well no you havent because that has not been proven! my missus is vet nurse she works with several vets and we have discussed this before and its well known that its painful, and it is even in one of her text books even if done by a vet there is still pain!!
how do you chop off a limb with out pain DR???


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## mrboajangles (Jun 7, 2007)

dragozz said:


> "BUT when an opinion is so utterly stupid with no evidence to back it up, I feel it nessasary to point it out and plainly say YOUR WRONG! "
> 
> I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you won't achieve anything by telling people that their opinion is STUPID and WRONG. I;m sure others think the same thing about your opinion too.



I know i wont but i have tried by giving fact and reasoning!! Some people are just too........ to see!!!


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jun 7, 2007)

well if they dont wake up while being docked indicates the puppy did not feel any discomfort. im not saying that all docking procedures are painless, but it can be done. which to me, means its been proven.


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## mrboajangles (Jun 7, 2007)

Their eyes and ears are shut at that age!!! how do you know they dont wake up, alot of dogs dont show pain, I can only remember my dog yelping once when it broke its tail off its pelvis after getting hit by a bus, and that was when it was doing a poo!!


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## Hickson (Jun 7, 2007)

Everyone is entited to their own opinion, and everyone is entitled to express that opinion as long as it doesn't breach any of the APS rules.

The two sides of this argument have been put forth and debated. It doesn't look like anyone is going to change their minds, so maybe it's time to agree to disagree.



Hix


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