# Confirmation please



## trin_007 (May 9, 2016)

I am a bit dubious about my seller and purchase. Just hoping someone can confirm/advise on what species/subspecies my fella might be? 






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## pythoninfinite (May 9, 2016)

It's a Carpet with a Jungle influence, but beyond that nobody would know.

Jamie


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## alterego (May 9, 2016)

are you in queensland? i had a guy trying to swap a python similar to that for my enclosures. He was claiming it to be a u-beaut jungle of some description, my reply to him was it looked like one of my coastals and i never heard from him again....


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## ronhalling (May 9, 2016)

[MENTION=42324]trin_007[/MENTION], from the first pic i would have said Black and White Jungle but the second shot just screams Coastal, i would go along with Jamie in saying it is a Coastal with some Jungle influence going by the Voodoo pattern on the head, looking at it's eye it is going into shed so put up another couple of pics (in the same light) after the shed. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) -ronhalling


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## Burgo89 (May 10, 2016)

I'm seeing two completely different snakes.


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## trin_007 (May 10, 2016)

The two photos above are actually before and after a shed - just a couple i had on my phone.

Here are a couple more:








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## trin_007 (May 10, 2016)

alterego said:


> are you in queensland? i had a guy trying to swap a python similar to that for my enclosures. He was claiming it to be a u-beaut jungle of some description, my reply to him was it looked like one of my coastals and i never heard from him again....


Yes i am in Qld and have to admit it has been a bit of a dodgy start. Being my first purchase i was a bit naive about the whole process, other than asking was he licensed, i was clueless about how things worked. He was just a young guy and i was a bit too keen to do the deal as it was a present for my son's birthday. He told me he would email the transfer as he couldn't find his permit while i was there. He told me the snake was about to shed and how he'd been feeding ( or starving! !) him, and about the general care etc. Two weeks later, a few text messages in between and still no permit, i called the mobile and "no one by that name on this phone" i lost my ***** with whoever it was and said someone better sorry something out. I eventually got a text back saying he had found his friend and the permit would be sent that weekend. I waited over a week and nothing arrived so i called DEHNP and they said just send in whatever info i had and they would follow it up. So i waited a couple of days then sent in my (blank) forms with basically just my permit number. A week later....the mystery form finally arrived! !!! 

The description on the transfer is: morelia spilota cheynei

Sorry for the epic story. 


pythoninfinite said:


> It's a Carpet with a Jungle influence, but beyond that nobody would know.
> 
> Jamie




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## notechistiger (May 10, 2016)

Cape york maybe? I'd definitely say some sort of jungle carpet.


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## AdhamhRuadh (May 10, 2016)

Definitely looks more Jungle than anything to me. I personally don't see Coastal at all.

Adam


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## Jenk92 (May 10, 2016)

Defs jungle carpet


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## BredliFreak (May 10, 2016)

Looks Jungle or predominantly Jungle, perhaps coastal or cape York mixed in, or potentially a mixed locale animal


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## pythoninfinite (May 10, 2016)

It's a Carpet with a Jungle influence, but beyond that nobody would know.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (May 10, 2016)

BredliFreak; or potentially a mixed locale animal[/QUOTE said:


> Mixed locale? Perhaps mixed subspecies. The differences between "coastal" and "jungle" carpets in some areas in NQ (e.g. Cairns) are hard to recognise.


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## ShaunMorelia (May 10, 2016)

Appearance does look typical of a Cape York carpet.
But without knowing the linage, then can't really say for certain.

Jamie, are you inferring that there is no ssp. of Morelia spilota?


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## BredliFreak (May 10, 2016)

Waterrat in NQ there is probably more undescribed ssp and hybridisation zones so I find it easiest to describe using locales. Could potentially bee a cross between an Atherton and a julatten (as an example)


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## GBWhite (May 10, 2016)

Hi Trin_007

What you have is a very nice looking python of the Morelia spilota group.

Despite all the above "stabs in the dark" no body can tell you what it is and as far as subspecies go nothing has been confirmed that there are subspecies within the Morelia sp group. Even current evidence based on DNA profiling to date is insufficient. It appears highly probable that they are all the same snake that display a mass variation in colour and patterns relevant to the area where they originate and this alone is insufficient to confirm a subspecies.

All the best

George.


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## Waterrat (May 10, 2016)

Well said George.

My favorite note on subspecies: 
“A population that has been geographically isolated for an unspecified period of time, and that has attracted more attention from researchers than one which has not yet achieved that status”. A product of vivid imagination and poor science."

cheers
Michael


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## AdhamhRuadh (May 10, 2016)

Not trying to start a whole thing, but I am so sick of hearing the “No such thing as subspecies/Not enough DNA data” argument. If there is currently insufficient evidence to prove the existence of the various Spilota subspecies, isn’t that more reason to assume that they DO exist until proven otherwise? You know; to avoid people just going crazy with crossing anything they can get their hands on and possibly finding out later that they are indeed separate subspecies/species, resulting in a lack of pure animals and an abundance of crosses/hybrids? 
Oh wait…


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## Waterrat (May 10, 2016)

Agham, I see where you coming from but it seems to me like a reversed logic. Historically, if you go to Kinghorn, Worrell and other early workers, there were only M. s. spilota and M.s. variegata. So, how can other subspecies exist without being described?
How can something exist without evidence of its existence?
Also, species and subspecies are two VERY different taxonomic levels.

cheers
Michael


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## AdhamhRuadh (May 10, 2016)

[MENTION=20031]Waterrat[/MENTION],
I probably should have made it clear that I was referring to assuming that the currently accepted subspecies (Cheynei, Mcdowelli, Imbricata, Metcalfei, Variegata, Spilota) exist. As far as I know, these have all been described and I don't see how denying their existence without sufficient evidence to do so is helping anything.
I also realise that species and subspecies are very different; but Bredli was once considered a subspecies of Spilota and that was proven wrong (with DNA, I believe?), so probably better to leave classification up to the experts, and follow the taxonomy of the likes of Cogger, etc.

Adam


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## Waterrat (May 10, 2016)

I agree with you Adam.
One thing I despise - what's the point of having a name to a subspecies (or in some cases even species - mainly in frogs) if you can't tell one from the other without having to run DNA analysis. End of rant. lol

Michael


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## BredliFreak (May 10, 2016)

Waterrat said:


> I agree with you Adam.
> One thing I despise - what's the point of having a name to a subspecies (or in some cases even species - mainly in frogs) if you can't tell one from the other without having to run DNA analysis. End of rant. lol
> 
> Michael



Gold statement right here. It kind of reminds with Gehyra where half the herping posts are Gehyra spp. Shows we have a lot to go with genetic analysis, but that's half the fun of discovering new species


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## SKYWLKR (May 10, 2016)

At the end of the day, the python seems to be far better off in your care than Mr D. Odgee

Lesson learnt though, right!


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## GBWhite (May 10, 2016)

AdhamhRuadh said:


> Not trying to start a whole thing, but I am so sick of hearing the “No such thing as subspecies/Not enough DNA data” argument. If there is currently insufficient evidence to prove the existence of the various Spilota subspecies, isn’t that more reason to assume that they DO exist until proven otherwise? You know; to avoid people just going crazy with crossing anything they can get their hands on and possibly finding out later that they are indeed separate subspecies/species, resulting in a lack of pure animals and an abundance of crosses/hybrids?
> Oh wait…



Remember the saying assumption makes an *** of you and me?

The taxonomy used to elevate M bredli (Gow, 1991) M Cheynei (Wells and Wellington 1983), M imbricata (Smith 1981) and M mcdowelli (Wells and Wellington 1983) is of very poor quality and wide open to question. The taxonomic descriptions of each alleged species are based on the number of mid body, ventral, subcaudal, supralabials, infralabial and supraocular scales that in fact are overall consistent within the group.

For a taxa to be raised to species / subspecies level, characteristics defining the taxa must be uniquely different from other taxa. Overlapping scale counts are not unique. Apart from Morelia spilota sp from the Sydney Sandstone Basin, colour and patterns can vary considerably amongst Morelia sp from the same locality and as such are again not unique. Size of specimens from the same locality can also vary considerably and are again not unique. None of the alleged species / subspecies are isolated or separated by geographic barriers and as such there can be no such thing as hybridisation.

DNA analysis to date can identify ancestry and location/distribution however according to the ICNZ Code location /distribution alone is not sufficient to classify taxa as a separate species / subspecies. On top of that any DNA evidence uncovered in the future must again be unique to the specific taxa and at the moment, considering the validity of molecular data used to validate alleged species / sub species is somewhat questionable and that there is no standard to comply with, then the question is...What level of difference in DNA contributes to a unique difference?

So in saying that; remember herpetoculture is a hobby and of no real scientific value. If people want to maintain specimens from a specific locality they should go out of their way to ensure the animals they are acquiring are just that. If others prefer to mix and match then personally, I can't see a problem. After all it is just a hobby. None of the animals maintained in private collections will ever be reintroduced back into the wild.

Just my thought on the subject.

Cheers,

George.

I'll add that DNA analysis to date only suggests that M Bredli and possibly imbricata may be separate species. It has not been confirmed.


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## TrueBlue (May 11, 2016)

As has been said, unless you can find out from who ever bred the animal, there is no way of knowing what it exactly is except a form of carpet. There are a number of localities where simular looking animals are found, ie Murry falls, Mt Fox, a few areas north of Cains, even Prospine, to name a few. The amount of people breeding different forms of carpets together these days only adds to the confusion in these situations. Personally I only keep locality pure carpets, I like to know where my animals are from. No jags or other forms of cross in my collection.


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## eipper (May 14, 2016)

Taxonomically the species level carpets are
M. imbricata, M. bredli and M spilota.

the subspecies are M.s. cheynei, M.s. mcdowelli, M.s. harrisoni, M.s. variegata, M.s. spilota and lastly M.s. metcalfei. All but the last one (Metacalfei) shown minimal mitochondrial dna divergence. 

The species and subspecies concepts are continually being adjusted to suit. Taxonomic change is the only certainty!


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2016)

And it makes sense Scott, the 3 species are geographically separated - unlike the rest.


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## Dahms13 (Aug 5, 2016)

Looks a lot like a Cape York, I once owned. If that helps.......? if not atleast you know i once owned a Cape York 

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