# corn snakes in qld



## dihsmaj (Jan 16, 2012)

If you know anyone that wants Corns, that lives in QLD and says that Corns wouldn't harm the environment, send them this
http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/documents...s/IPA-American-Corn-Snake-Risk-Assessment.pdf


----------



## nagini-baby (Jan 16, 2012)

wow... basically we're screwed


----------



## GeckoJosh (Jan 16, 2012)

I hate peopel keeping exotics but some of that assesment is a bit........

"The species’ most likely invasion pathway is via the illegal pet trade. Experienced reptile keepers admit that E. guttata can readily escape from enclosures, due to its small size and general agility. "

To me that gives the impression that they cannot be housed securely, which is a bunch of BS


----------



## Fuscus (Jan 17, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> To me that gives the impression that they cannot be housed securely, which off-course is a bunch of BS


Interesting view point that is not grounded to reality and is "off-course". How many "Help - My snake has escaped?" thread does APS have a week?
Do you really think some one who has purchased a snake from someone at a pub do better?
Mind you, you can make a 100% escape proof enclosure(eg a stainless steel box filled with concrete and welded shut), but most are impracticable at feeding time.


----------



## atothej09 (Jan 17, 2012)

IMO all my snakes are exotic, and I love them all.
I am in the group that would love a Ball Python, and yes I am very happy with what I've already got, but I would still like a BP. I understand there are risks with others such as Burmese or Retics etc, but a BP does not fit in that category. Banning all but native in my opinion is ridiculous and behind in the times.


----------



## SamNabz (Jan 17, 2012)

atothej09 said:


> IMO all my snakes are exotic, and I love them all.



Huh? Is this a typo, or are you just admitting that you keep exotics..?



> I am in the group that would love a Ball Python, and yes I am very happy with what I've already got, but I would still like a BP. I understand there are risks with others such as Burmese or Retics etc, but a BP does not fit in that category. Banning all but native in my opinion is ridiculous and behind in the times.



At the end of the day, these are the rules and they are likely *never* to change...for good reason too.

If you don't like it, and you think Australia has bad service in general (something you mentioned in another thread recently), is ridiculous, and behind in the times - there's always a way out of the country mate.


----------



## zulu (Jan 17, 2012)

All reptiles are exotic when moved from one place to another across ocean or land.


----------



## Fuscus (Jan 17, 2012)

atothej09 said:


> Banning all but native in my opinion is ridiculous and behind in the times.


Lets say they decided to allow a select number of species in. Within 20 minutes of the decision there will be a post saying "Banning all but native and selected species in my opinion is ridiculous and behind in the times". The legal importation will also act as a cover for illegals so increase monitoring and compliance costs which would certainly mean increased increased licence fees witch, due to my condition*, I am not in favour of.


* I have Ducks Bum Syndrome.


----------



## benjamind2010 (Jan 18, 2012)

The illegality of keeping of any exotic reptile should be agreed upon soley by that reptile's ability to either 

1/ threaten public safety in a serious manner - which would literally rule out ANY venomous reptiles, and very large boids.
2/ threaten biodiversity in a serious manner - which would rule out most North American colubrids, most tortoises/terrapins, most amphibians, and most lizards.
3/ threaten agriculture in a serious manner - which would rule out some species, maybe not as many as above, but still enough to make a difference.

The precautionary principle comes in full swing here - which should mean that individual species are investigated for their potential to apply to either of the above 3 points, and a decision based on that research is made.

But...just because the government bureaucrats "don't like snakes" is not a good enough reason. Sorry. These "don't like snakes" retards are the same ilk that are trying to stop us from keeping natives...hence the new animal keeper guidelines which, as one poster said, have these bureaucrats fingerprints all over them.

Don't like snakes? Fine, don't keep them. But it's not of your business if someone else wants to keep them. It's a private decision and should be treated as such. And I am in fact also supportive of any attempts to legalize cannabis as it is no more harmful than tobacco which is 99% legal, and is _certainly_ no more harmful than alcohol!


----------



## jakedasnake (Jan 18, 2012)

but how r some exotics like corn snakes gonna damage our environment? i mean they r just another reptile like a woma python or a roughie.


----------



## Kenno (Jan 18, 2012)

It needs more pretty pictures


----------



## Jeffa (Jan 18, 2012)

jakessnake3799 said:


> but how r some exotics like corn snakes gonna damage our environment? i mean they r just another reptile like a woma python or a roughie.




Honestly, are you for real?

Can you post your address so I can get DERM to check out your address?


----------



## phantomreptiles (Jan 18, 2012)

Jeffa said:


> Honestly, are you for real?
> 
> Can you post your address so I can get DERM to check out your address?



+1


----------



## Darlyn (Jan 18, 2012)

atothej09 said:


> Banning all but native in my opinion is ridiculous and behind in the times.


I find your opinion gungho and behind the times, but that's just my opinion.


----------



## GeckoJosh (Jan 18, 2012)

Fuscus said:


> Interesting view point that is not grounded to reality and is "off-course". How many "Help - My snake has escaped?" thread does APS have a week?
> Do you really think some one who has purchased a snake from someone at a pub do better?
> Mind you, you can make a 100% escape proof enclosure(eg a stainless steel box filled with concrete and welded shut), but most are impracticable at feeding time.



I was just pointing out that to me they were implying corn snakes can escape enclosures that other snakes cannot, which is not true.

I am quite aware that the reality is snakes escape all the time, not just corns

I think you are being a bit over the top, a sturdy enclosure with no gaps a latch/lock on the door when used correctly is imo escape proof


----------



## bellany (Jan 18, 2012)

As much as i love 'diversity' i find it unnerving when i turn up to and idiot mates place and hes telling me he has lost his snake i get annoyed.... and three days later find a corn snake in his desk he gave me.. grr!


----------



## Skinnerguy (Jan 18, 2012)

Jeffa said:


> Honestly, are you for real?
> 
> Can you post your address so I can get DERM to check out your address?


Seriously? You'd think someone keeping exotics would have a better argument than that... Leave him alone, he just doesn't know.

And I also agree with the bureaucrat comment. It's only due to the fact that reptiles aren't the most favourable of creatures in some peoples eyes that they don't give this any thought...
And because they're predisposed to dislike, they don't waste their time with it. Which really limits the hobby in all areas.


----------



## Jeffa (Jan 18, 2012)

Skinnerguy said:


> Seriously? You'd think someone keeping exotics would have a better argument than that... Leave him alone, he just doesn't know.
> 
> And I also agree with the bureaucrat comment. It's only due to the fact that reptiles aren't the most favourable of creatures in some peoples eyes that they don't give this any thought...
> And because they're predisposed to dislike, they don't waste their time with it. Which really limits the hobby in all areas.



True, if it gets out that corn snakes or any other exotic for that matter have established a wild population in several ares, and that DERM or QPWS etc try and educate the general public about the potential severity of the situation, re disease, competition for food etc. Would this mean bad publicity for native species considering that the average Jo blo would not hesitate to chop a snake in half and even use the "I just assumed it was an introduced corn snake attitude"?


----------



## Fantazmic (Jan 18, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> . And I am in fact also supportive of any attempts to legalize cannabis as it is no more harmful than tobacco which is 99% legal, and is _certainly_ no more harmful than alcohol!



Are you absolutely insane ???????? It has recently been scientifically proven there is a link between the onset of schizophenia and the use of cannabis (google it if you dont beleive me). If you need me to find the research I will. Therefore it is undoubtedly more harmful than alcohol. There has been recent pressure on the government because of these research findings to go back to outlawing the use of cannabis. However at this stage the government have decided not to act on these recommendations. However with a shange of government it may well be back on the agenda again.


Now Ive got that off my chest....what an excellent article....there was a statement in there about corn snakes not being naturalised in Australia or Queensland which I am taking to mean that they have not moved out into the general wildlife population like cane toads for example ? (correct me if I am wrong) 

I wonder what people think about that statement ? There have threads on here about corn snakes being 'found' in peoples backyards and people posting pics of what they have found and innocently saying....'look what I found in my backyard I cant work out what it is ?' 


Do you think there is a wild population of corn snakes from escapees/dumpings ? 


Elizabeth


----------



## Skinnerguy (Jan 18, 2012)

Fantazmic said:


> Do you think there is a wild population of corn snakes from escapees/dumpings ?
> 
> 
> Elizabeth



In short, yes. If not due to carelessness on the part of illegal keepers/breeders then due to the release of them without knowledge of the consequence.


----------



## Vincey (Jan 18, 2012)

Fantazmic said:


> Are you absolutely insane ???????? It has recently been scientifically proven there is a link between the onset of schizophenia and the use of cannabis (google it if you dont beleive me). If you need me to find the research I will. Therefore it is undoubtedly more harmful than alcohol. There has been recent pressure on the government because of these research findings to go back to outlawing the use of cannabis. However at this stage the government have decided not to act on these recommendations. However with a shange of government it may well be back on the agenda again.
> 
> Elizabeth



Pretty ignorant. Did you also read the part where cannabinoids have a direct link to healing certaint malignant cells? It has been proven to reduce the onset of cancer and has half the degenerative mental effects of abuse of alcohol and other drugs, not to mention it's highly unlikely to 'develop schizophrenia'. It's generally hereditary and passed on down the family. It may in fact trigger schizoprenia earlier but all that means is establishing your family history before touching the stuff -- Assuming the person consuming said drug is an adult. I completely disagree with the use of cannabis in the younger population aswell as other illicit substances.

Now that I've got that off of my chest

As for the original topic, I'd prefer not to see other 'exotics' around that could harm the native flora / fauna but at the same time I'd love to see other species which could come under a category of not being harmful that may be exotic. But I'm no expert so I really wouldn't know if that's possible..


----------



## Fantazmic (Jan 18, 2012)

So is the article trying to say they have everything under control ? when really it isnt ? or are they just sticking their heads in the sand


----------



## Darlyn (Jan 18, 2012)

Hey Fantazmic last study I saw said that schizophreniacs were more lkely
to smoke cannabis.
"Undoubtably more harmful than alcohol" is laughable.
However we digress from the OP's topic.


----------



## benjamind2010 (Jan 19, 2012)

jakessnake3799 said:


> but how r some exotics like corn snakes gonna damage our environment? i mean they r just another reptile like a woma python or a roughie.



No, actually, they are not. They are completely different to a woma or a rough scaled python. Totally different.

Womas and rough scaled pythons are boids. Pythons (boids) are well represented in Australia. They tend to move more slowly, tend to produce fewer offspring and tend to have a longer maturation period between hatching and reaching size of reproductive capacity - usually around 2 years as a minimum.

Corn snakes are colubrids. Colubrids are poorly represented in Australia, and I am led to believe there is a reason for that. They tend to have a faster metabolism, tend to produce larger numbers of offspring, and generally have a shorter maturation period - in some cases corn snakes can begin breeding at nine months of age if they are of appropriate size.

Both these groups are pretty good climbers (with exception to womas/aspidites, as they tend to be boreal in nature). Corn snakes are very good climbers, and can easily scale a tree for prey items. As can most boids.

Exotics can damage the environment in a number of ways - one of the main ones is competition with local species which can in extreme cases drive the local species to extinction. They also predate directly on local species, and can also wipe them out in a similar fashion, and they can carry pathogens that are not endemic to Australia and therefore our local species have no immunity to them, which could also wipe out a local species as well. That's three big reasons to be concerned about.

They certainly can cause damage. I'd say the corn snake, of all snakes, would be one snake that you really wouldn't want to bring into Australia - they breed in large numbers, will adapt to most environments in Australia, and cause the aforementioned problems of competition, predation, and perhaps even spread non-endemic diseases. No, corn snakes do not pose ANY threat to human safety, they are in fact what I consider the safest of all snakes to handle as they very rarely if ever bite and they are generally extremely placid, often to the point of boring - but that says nothing about the threat they pose to the environment which I would say is pretty serious.



Skinnerguy said:


> And I also agree with the bureaucrat comment. It's only due to the fact that reptiles aren't the most favourable of creatures in some peoples eyes that they don't give this any thought...
> And because they're predisposed to dislike, they don't waste their time with it. Which really limits the hobby in all areas.



Only when it comes to native species, which has been the subject of much pain and suffering when it comes to keepers in the past. When we're talking about exotics, it's a different ball game.

In a word, with natives, yes I'd agree.

With exotics, no, generally I wouldn't agree with that sentiment.

I think we need to breed more natives, especially more of the smaller and more easily manageable species (ie, womas, rough scaled pythons, etc) and teach people about what we have here...I think you'll find most people would be happy with keeping natives anyway.


----------



## Dende (May 31, 2012)

just thought i'd share this link with everyone re: the american corn snake. http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/documents/Biosecurity_EnvironmentalPests/IPA-Corn-Snake-Pest-Alert.pdf


----------



## Brodie (May 31, 2012)

Ha. Just made a report. Tossers


----------



## Manda1032 (May 31, 2012)

I wonder how much that document cost us tax payers.

I'd love a cornsnake... their on my dream list.

Lastly......... Canetoads!
That is all


----------



## Kam333 (May 31, 2012)

Fantazmic said:


> Are you absolutely insane ???????? It has recently been scientifically proven there is a link between the onset of schizophenia and the use of cannabis (google it if you dont beleive me). If you need me to find the research I will. Therefore it is undoubtedly more harmful than alcohol. There has been recent pressure on the government because of these research findings to go back to outlawing the use of cannabis. However at this stage the government have decided not to act on these recommendations. However with a shange of government it may well be back on the agenda again.
> 
> 
> Elizabeth



That study was dismissed long ago, as most studies are conducted with a pre set outcome (yes I know - controversial) so was proven that one . . . and if you want Google it and find the politician that tried to publicise the study as fact. Alcohol has always been more destructive in many ways, physically, mentally, socially. . . how many date rapes happened on weed? Anyway education is the first step. . and as your post points out we have yet to take that one.

As for established wild populations, I think there are greater threats to our environment than just exotics. . .like people and our insane destruction of fragile environments and excessive use of natural resources. To me this all seems to be the old magicians trick of look at this. . while in my other hand. . . .


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 31, 2012)

jakedasnake said:


> but how r some exotics like corn snakes gonna damage our environment? i mean they r just another reptile like a woma python or a roughie.



You could ask the same questions of Sparrows, Starlings and Indian Mynahs, which have invaded our cities and suburbs since their deliberate introduction early last century - now you never see native species of honeyeaters in many places because they've been squeezed out by those much more aggressive imported species. Rabbits, foxes, cats, and even cane toads were seen as benign, harmless or just useful when they were introduced, but with the wisdom oif hindsight, Australia is not keen to add any more mistakes to the huge list of those already made.

if you add some prolific, highly fecund (look it up ) exotic reptiles to the mix, do you think they'll compete with our native species for food and shelter as their numbers increase? Of course they will - our small lizards and frogs will be the first to suffer as the hatchlings grow, and that leaves less food for our native species, which will eventually disappear.

Just because a few a few self-centred, thoughtless clowns want something different. You already live in a country which has amongst the most divergent reptile species in the world... be happy with that.

Jamie


----------



## borntobnude (May 31, 2012)

maybe if we can get them eating cane toads, that could fix an earlier expert government blunder !!!


----------



## Cockney_Red (May 31, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> You could ask the same questions of Sparrows, Starlings and Indian Mynahs, which have invaded our cities and suburbs since their deliberate introduction early last century - now you never see native species of honeyeaters in many places because they've been squeezed out by those much more aggressive imported species. Rabbits, foxes, cats, and even cane toads were seen as benign, harmless or just useful when they were introduced, but with the wisdom oif hindsight, Australia is not keen to add any more mistakes to the huge list of those already made.
> In a nutshell!!!
> 
> if you add some prolific, highly fecund (look it up ) exotic reptiles to the mix, do you think they'll compete with our native species for food and shelter as their numbers increase? Of course they will - our small lizards and frogs will be the first to suffer as the hatchlings grow, and that leaves less food for our native species, which will eventually disappear.
> ...


Summed Up !!


----------



## moussaka (Jun 1, 2012)

If you look at all the animals that have been introduced into Australia, whether accidentally or on purpose, you'd be hard-pressed to make up much of a list of animals which HAVEN'T had really serious detrimental impacts on our natives. 

And as for 'oh, it's a reptile, reptiles are totally fine and no harm can ever come of them'...brown tree snake? Guam? Complete and utter devastation? There's absolutely no reason why for example the corn snake couldn't have a similar impact in Australia.

Guys, we literally have half the world's python species, and our herpetofauna is the envy of the rest of the world. Why on earth would we want to put our unique fauna at risk for a handful of pretty species?


----------



## dragonlover1 (Jun 1, 2012)

Fantazmic said:


> Are you absolutely insane ???????? It has recently been scientifically proven there is a link between the onset of schizophenia and the use of cannabis (google it if you dont beleive me). If you need me to find the research I will. Therefore it is undoubtedly more harmful than alcohol. There has been recent pressure on the government because of these research findings to go back to outlawing the use of cannabis. However at this stage the government have decided not to act on these recommendations. However with a shange of government it may well be back on the agenda again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



don't believe everything you read Elizabeth,I smoked for more than 30 years and we are not schizophenic


----------



## killimike (Jun 1, 2012)

The broader points of 'exotics are bad' are totally correct, but it is worth noting that the introduction of the brown tree snake to Guam is way overused as an example of an invasive snake, and that fact alone might point to something. Insular populations of potential prey animals that are unused to avoiding snakes, who have few natural predators in these environments, is a very different situation to that in Australia, and indeed, anywhere that is not a reptile devoid island.


----------



## gemrock2hot (Jun 9, 2012)

Well I think Australia is doomed either way because weather or not we allow them they are already here and I wouldnt be surprised if there are already heaps of corn snakes in the wild because of illegal ones that have already escaped. If they ever do make it legal then I think any exotic that comes over here should have a vaccination to stop disease spreading. And make a special license that u need to pass a course and have an approved cage for just my 2 cents lol


----------



## Darlyn (Jun 9, 2012)

Damn we're doomed : (


----------



## souldoubt (Jun 9, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> You could ask the same questions of Sparrows, Starlings and Indian Mynahs, which have invaded our cities and suburbs since their deliberate introduction early last century - now you never see native species of honeyeaters in many places because they've been squeezed out by those much more aggressive imported species. Rabbits, foxes, cats, and even cane toads were seen as benign, harmless or just useful when they were introduced, but with the wisdom oif hindsight, Australia is not keen to add any more mistakes to the huge list of those already made.
> 
> if you add some prolific, highly fecund (look it up ) exotic reptiles to the mix, do you think they'll compete with our native species for food and shelter as their numbers increase? Of course they will - our small lizards and frogs will be the first to suffer as the hatchlings grow, and that leaves less food for our native species, which will eventually disappear.
> 
> ...




Could not agree more, we have such an abundance of reptiles and people still complain?

Surely some of the "we want exotics" group would have noticed, as they have an interest in reptiles, that Australia is very well suited to reptiles, which is reflected by the abundance of species we have that reside in our country. The establishment of just about any exotic reptile population in Australia will have devastating effects on our wildlife.


----------



## Skeptic (Jun 9, 2012)

Funny how no one had a problem with the 'Show us your exotic birds' thread  A lot of people on here seem to have double standards. 

As far as protecting our environment goes, the current background extinction rate is 1000 times higher than it should be, we're raping our resources for the benefit of a few, we're ruining our water ways, destroying native habitats everywhere through clearing and fishing out the sea's at an unsustainable rate. I'm sorry to say it but the barn doors are open and the horses have fled. Good thing we're not allowed exotic reptiles though or we'd really be screwed


----------



## Recharge (Jun 9, 2012)

GeckoJosh said:


> I hate peopel keeping exotics but some of that assesment is a bit........
> 
> "The species’ most likely invasion pathway is via the illegal pet trade. Experienced reptile keepers admit that E. guttata can readily escape from enclosures, due to its small size and general agility. "
> 
> To me that gives the impression that they cannot be housed securely, which is a bunch of BS



and if you can show me a single herp keeper that hasn't had a single escape in the first five years, I'll point to the one's lying.


----------



## damian83 (Jun 9, 2012)

killimike said:


> The broader points of 'exotics are bad' are totally correct, but it is worth noting that the introduction of the brown tree snake to Guam is way overused as an example of an invasive snake, and that fact alone might point to something. Insular populations of potential prey animals that are unused to avoiding snakes, who have few natural predators in these environments, is a very different situation to that in Australia, and indeed, anywhere that is not a reptile devoid island.



Hmmm just like a few cane toads won't hurt anyone
If it wasn't here in the first place p!ssem back off the where they come from, oh wait are we talking bout immigrants or animals still 

Exotics aren't bad there just doesn't need to be a place here for them

Skeptic that's a good point why is it ok for birds but reptiles mammels Ect aren't


----------



## Recharge (Jun 9, 2012)

maybe because we have a heap of migratory birds that have travelled into and out of australia since birds started flying, reptiles and a lot of other animals have a lot harder time crossing oceans 
that, and our reptiles have no known natural virus's, the two we have now, were both imported and are now in wild populations due to escapes and dumping.
I'm sure that there are other reasons too.


----------



## Chanzey (Jun 10, 2012)

Skeptic said:


> Funny how no one had a problem with the 'Show us your exotic birds' thread  A lot of people on here seem to have double standards.



Same goes with fish... I heard recently that the tilapia found around Mackay to Cairns and everywhere in between are almost genetically identical meaning they came from just a few fish..


----------



## butters (Jun 10, 2012)

No known natural viruses? Are you serious?
Of course there are naturally occurring viruses and so far I don't believe anyone has proved that the viruses we have here that you mentioned above are imported. They are similar to, but not the same. From what I have read recently research seems to indicate they are home grown and whilst in the same group as the overseas examples are local not imported. Will see if I can find the more recent information I was reading. From memory by someone in Perth?

As for the birds. We probably have more feral bird species in Australia than any other animal. The list of exotic birds that have gone feral is huge and they have displaced many native species all around the country. To say that exotic birds are ok whilst reptiles aren't is ludicrous.

I am not a fan of exotics ,have no wish to keep any ( my kids and a dog are the only exotic species I have) and i dont think we should have any here, but I don't believe they are to blame for everything.


----------



## Recharge (Jun 11, 2012)

butters, nothing comes up in a search for these virus being native to Australia.
would you care to front up some documentation or research results backing your belief/statement?

Ophidio Paramyxovirus (OPMV) in Australian Reptile Collections. suggests around 2003 for the first official case of what was thought to be OPMV (which is now known as a different virus "sunshine")

finding information on this issue isn't easy, but thus far I haven't seen anything that suggests it's a native virus to Australia.

and specifically, I'm talking about deadly virus such as sunshine and OPMV


----------



## TreeHugger (Jun 11, 2012)

Honestly some peoples stupendous amount of ignorance in this thread amazes me. Before you make comments like "Oh, how are exotics different to snakes e have in Australia mer mer mer" GET A EDUCATION. 

Clearly 1: You know jack crap about your animals if you have reps on this website 
Clearly 2: You don't understand the first thing about the detrimental effect of introducing exotic species into the Australian environment, and how bloody hard it is mitigate peoples ******* UPS!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HCnfgnuiowhjnfwidushjk

READ A BOOK IF THAT'S THE ONLY THING YOU DO TO INFORM YOURSELVES. 

Sorry If i sound mean... this is my life right here - keeping care of the Australian Environment and this topic drives me up the wall!


----------



## souldoubt (Jun 11, 2012)

Skeptic said:


> Funny how no one had a problem with the 'Show us your exotic birds' thread  A lot of people on here seem to have double standards.
> 
> As far as protecting our environment goes, the current background extinction rate is 1000 times higher than it should be, we're raping our resources for the benefit of a few, we're ruining our water ways, destroying native habitats everywhere through clearing and fishing out the sea's at an unsustainable rate. I'm sorry to say it but the barn doors are open and the horses have fled. Good thing we're not allowed exotic reptiles though or we'd really be screwed



So we should add another problem to the pile of ones that we already have? why not, the environment is already seriously suffering, so instead of removing some stressors or preventing more stressors let's just keep adding to that pile


----------



## butters (Jun 11, 2012)

OPMV is not known as sunshine virus. They are completely different.
OPMV is now known as Ferlavirus and so far I haven't been able to find any proof that it has been conclusively proven to be in Australia. Doesn't mean it's not there just that my research skills suck.

Most results come back as similar to or suspected to be with no one ( that i have found) being able to conclusively state that it has been opmv via testing.

I am sorry but I am very , very sceptical about anything coming from he who shall not be named. He also offers no proof that it is here and he is somewhat known for his conspiracy theory approach to everything.

it was actually on this forum that I first read about sunshine virus and that was the basis of my statement. But then you shouldn't always believe what you read on an Internet forum.

Isolation and molecular identification of ... [Infect Genet Evol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI is an abstract on sunshine virus.

I won't suggest that exotic opmv isn't here just that we now seem to be finding other viruses which give similar symptoms and would previously have been written off as opmv.

I am trying to keep an open mind about it.

I am open to the belief that some of what has happened may have been opmv. I would just like to see real proof.

I am also open to the idea that it could be local as we would be very naive to think there are no endemic viruses which could show the same symptoms.


----------



## Recharge (Jun 11, 2012)

I think perhaps you should go back and carefully read what I wrote, because it's painfully obvious you didn't. 
lack of proof does not equal evidence.
as to your assertion


> "we would be very naive to think there are no endemic viruses which could show the same symptoms"


 I think you're being reactionary and alarmist to claim what we currently do know is in fact Australian, considering that it's only in very recent history that said virus has even shown up, people, zoos and researchers have been keeping and studying snakes for a LONG time in Australia, someone would have stumbled upon this sooner than mid 2000.


----------



## killimike (Jun 11, 2012)

damian83 said:


> Hmmm just like a few cane toads won't hurt anyone
> If it wasn't here in the first place p!ssem back off the where they come from, oh wait are we talking bout immigrants or animals still
> 
> Exotics aren't bad there just doesn't need to be a place here for them
> ...



Cane toads don't have much to do with the over and inappropriate use of the Guam situation. Just look at how the invasion biologists are handling the other exotic reptiles they are investigating. Bad science is bad science, whether it is used to good ends or no.

I think the most interesting point is still whether having other exotics has any bearing on whether, morally and legally, reptiles should be allowed. I don't think it means they should, myself, but it is hard to take all the chatter about the doom exotic reps will bring when we are over run by, to pick one, cats. A bit of consistency would help.


----------



## butters (Jun 11, 2012)

No lack of proof proves neither view and you also didn't read my post obviously because I said I am open minded about both scenarios.

Im sorry but I took your statement as being that the hoser outbreak which was thought to be opmv was in fact sunshine. I can find no links between the two to suggest this. I honestly believe that the hoser case was probably opmv but my belief means nothing. If you know of something which can tie the two together I would love to see it. Not in a bad way I would just be really interested is all.

I don't see it as being reactionary or alarmist i see it as keeping an open mind but hey each to his own view.

To date sunshine virus has only been found in Australia and as yet I don't think anyone has been able to confirm it came from anywhere else. The fact that so far it hasn't been found in wild populations doesn't prove or disprove either source.

i still think it more than possible that we have our own version of opmv. In the end it means little as the implications to captive collections is the same.
the implications to native populations though is actually better because if it is local then it means that all of our wild species are not at risk of a sudden mass die off. If they were there would be no snakes now and it means there is some mechanism or partial immunity that prevents this in wild populations. We can only hope.

I would much rather it be local as the prognosis for wild populations may be better than with an imported disease. In my view the better of two evils.

I agree in part. I don't think we should have any exotics. Birds, fish, cats, reptiles whatever but that's not living in a realistic world. 

Doesn't mean I don't like them just don't think they should be here. I even have a problem in owning a dog.
Authorities don't make it any easier by not allowing many native species to be kept. People want pets. I just wish there were more Australian options.
My kids will never have a cat while they live under my roof and after showing them what was inside a feral cat they understand my convictions , hopefully will not own one as adults and at least if they do they wont be letting it outside.Won't change anything in the grand scheme of things but.


----------



## Skeptic (Jun 11, 2012)

The only point I was trying to make is that it is hypocritical to allow exotic birds, mammals and fish to be kept and not reptiles. As far as I'm aware, it's only these exotic species that are exempt from licencing as well! :facepalm: If you regulate the trade and make all animals that come in for breeding purposes go through quarantine you eliminate the disease argument. You also reduce the number of animals being smuggled in. Make the animals a class 6 reptile as well, thereby restricting them to only the most experienced keepers. How many experienced keepers on here have lost a class 5 elapid?

Also Recharge, migratory birds aren't considered exotic.


----------

