# My first venomous snake handle!!!! <----no need for capti



## tebz (Sep 9, 2006)

i handled my first venomous snake today it was a collett snake it was sooo cool well it had been de-venomed but it was still so cool if any of you know about the diamond creek fair that was aon today(saturday 9th) there was guyz from snakebusters there and they had death adders,taipan and stuff like that they also had bredli, brisbane and i think diamond it was the best experience!!!
cheerz tebzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Ricko (Sep 10, 2006)

*RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

hehe god he who shall stay nameless has struck again.


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## MrSpike (Sep 10, 2006)

I would call it venomous if it has been de-venomaited. Poor snake


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## pythonguy (Sep 10, 2006)

*RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

yeh i saw the display... it was amazing that all those snakes were so freely being handled.. 4 yo kids were passing around collets snakes.. 

taipans, tigers, adders.. he was picking them up like it was a Childreni... not one of em had a go at him... i know they have had their venom glands removed..but is that the sole reason for them being so incredibly docile?


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## PremierPythons (Sep 10, 2006)

*RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

I wonder how amazing it will be when the same 4yo picks up a non hacked up HOT in the wild??? What a hero he is picking up venomoids! That's the stuff true heroes are made of....


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## AustHerps (Sep 10, 2006)

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pythonguy said:


> i know they have had their venom glands removed..but is that the sole reason for them being so incredibly docile?



Taking the glands out isn't like removing a dog's balls. It doesn't alter the hormonal balance of the snake. The reason it doesn't bite is because it's become humanised. Just like a bitey darwin. No different to settling down a hatchy.

Cheers,
Austy.


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## RevDaniel (Sep 10, 2006)

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hehe does a brown tree snake count?


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## olivehydra (Sep 10, 2006)

*Re: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*



tebz said:


> i handled my first venomous snake today it was a collett snake it was sooo cool well it had been de-venomed but it was still so cool if any of you know about the diamond creek fair that was aon today(saturday 9th) there was guyz from snakebusters there and they had death adders,taipan and stuff like that they also had bredli, brisbane and i think diamond it was the best experience!!!
> cheerz tebzzzzzzzzzzzz



Did the bredli, Brisbane and diamond python have their teeth removed? I've heard pythons can give a painful bite.
On a serious note, do they (snakebusters) offer informative suggestions about not handling such snakes in "normal" circumstances?


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## AGAMIDAE (Sep 10, 2006)

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tebz said:


> well it had been de-venomed




So really you didnt hold a venomous snake at all......


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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"sits back and gets the pop corn (again)"


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## Garry2 (Sep 10, 2006)

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Taking the glands out isn't like removing a dog's balls. It doesn't alter the hormonal balance of the snake. The reason it doesn't bite is because it's become humanised. Just like a bitey darwin. No different to settling down a hatchy.

Cheers,
Austy.[/quote]


Darwins bitey ... no never


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

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This thread should fire up nicely. Just the thing for such a cold miserable day.

Bring on the lynching!


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## Tatelina (Sep 10, 2006)

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Gawd...why are you people online at 8am on a sunday morning?!

Im so clueless that I probably wouldnt be able to tell between a de-venomised snake and a non venoumous one.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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i find this practice totally and utterly incompetent, any body that has to remove venom glands from snakes to feel safe should NOT be keeping them in the first place.
I truley belive that it is about time that the bunch of incompetent fools that go under the name snakebusters need to be removed from the industry, by choice or force, and take up another profession.
maybe keeping budgies or goldfish would be more suited to their incompetence.


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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Damn, im running out of pop corn.... I think there should just be an entire website devoted to the promotion and demotion of devonomising... That way I could just pop the pop corn at random times when i need this entertainment... Still... This isn't as entertaining as gordon's blog or the one about the dog that killed the wallaby... but this does come a close third.... thanks for th eentertainment keep it going!


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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TrueBlue said:


> maybe keeping budgies or goldfish would be more suited to their incompetence.



Don't forget budgies are verocious lettle peckers... they need to be debeaked first... and goldfish.. don't get me started - i used to swim with my gold fish... then snapper (the big fat goldy coloured one) went straigh for my eyeballs.. i tell ya... goldfish aren't no angels either! They will need to be de-lipped... or swim with googles on.... Incidentally... the tank didn't hold me... just my head... was fun for a while


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## RevDaniel (Sep 10, 2006)

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As a young child i was quite adventurous. I would catch red bally black snakes, tiger snakes. I had a friend bring a pair of small eye snakes to tafe one day. I had a Marsh snake for a while.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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well maybe knitting may suit these extremely incompetent fools, but seriuosly the government, RSPCA, or animal rights groups need to pull their fingers out and close these fools down.


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## Wrasse (Sep 10, 2006)

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Watch those needle points True Blue... and those loops of wool, when they sneak around a finger and pull tight..

oowwwwwww


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## Ricko (Sep 10, 2006)

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i have also heard he may glue or something like that there mouths shut but im not 100% sure


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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and then the hissy fit when you go put the nicely knitted red jumper on the child you made it for.. that's when eyeballs are gouged....


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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Ricko said:


> i have also heard he may glue or something like that there mouths shut but im not 100% sure



Awwwwe.. now you're just trying to start something here... hehe... Damn.. I need to go to the shop to get even more popcorn.. I have nothing to say but sit back and watch the fangs come out.... Oh wait.. are you sure they don't do that too? some dentistry removing fangs? 

Oh... maybe they just blu tac the end of the venom chambers... or cork them???

OMG.... i could get fat on all the pop corn....


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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wrasse, yeah i get your point, but surely theres something that incompetent people like this can do.?
any ideas.??


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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is paper mache' dangerous???


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## Ricko (Sep 10, 2006)

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Slim6y i aint trying to start anything this is what i was told by a respected herp keeper here in vic.


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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there's no words that can describe what I would do to someone if i caught them gluing the mouth of a snake shut... there is honestly, NO WORDS! It would have to be a joke... not even the stupidest freakish of people could be that cruel... but i digress... im not part of this conversation... my feelings are strong.. but the typical idiot out there still gets away with it... ok ok... just eat the pop corn


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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two words slim6y, "Totally Incompetent".


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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that doesn't exactly describe what i would like to do to them tho TB - however I fully agree. Do you think there's levels of incompetencies? Like is there a difference between incompetent and totally incompetent... because these people (if there's levels of incompetencies) are beyond totally incompetent...


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## lizardboy_ryan (Sep 10, 2006)

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ive handled heaps of venomous snakes and im only 13 the snakes i have hadled include yellow faced whip snakes, eastern small eyed snakes, bandy bandys and a white lipped snake which bit me.
my parents tell me not to but i still do


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## snakes4me2 (Sep 10, 2006)

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Have to agree with you there TB, People get put in jail for being cruel to animals, why doesnt he?. If you cant handle a ven in tact then you shouldnt be near them at all. The horsham show is coming up in a few weeks and he was there 2 years ago (didnt go last year but i think he was there). I held his snakes the first time he was there and i thought it was great (didnt know they were attacked by a butcher) so i might ask a few questions if he there this year. :mrgreen:


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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Don't just ask questions snakes4me2 - put up a picket sign and warn people of the cruelty that this fella is putting these snakes through... is he ever coming to Cairns...? who is he?


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## Wrasse (Sep 10, 2006)

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TrueBlue said:


> wrasse, yeah i get your point, but surely theres something that incompetent people like this can do.?
> any ideas.??



You are giving me a headache trying to think of something...

I tossed up sleeping, but then theres the sore back and the crick in the neck, the snoring.
Death, but then the coffin would eventually collapse and cause a nasty trip overable hole in the ground.
I settled on a locked mirrored room, piped Richard Clayderman 24 hours a day and a carton of assorted sharp knives, let the incompetence run it's course. Should solve a problem or two.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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ha ha, wrasse, sounds like a good plan.

snakes4me, could you ask them a question or two for me,? ie "how do you guys get to be so incomptent.?"
"have you done a course on incompetence.?"
I belive these are valid questions as the level of incompetence these fools dispaly, i dont think comes naturally, infact i think they may of been working on it for quite some time now to acheive such incompetancy.


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## Wrasse (Sep 10, 2006)

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bet they can't come up with an answer


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

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This discussion is very logical :roll: 
So even though the person has handled hot snakes for ages and still removes them as his job he is incompetant because he uses voids in his shows :? 
Or are you givng crap to the audience because they are incompetant?

I think how he prepares them for surgery is questionable at best, but apart from that seems like a good idea, Tebz seemed to like it anyway. I still havnt worked out why snakes that are so traumatized by losing their venom seem to be so happy to be handled, mate, feed etc. I heard ppl say that if a snake is doing these things it is being looked after properly or did i misunderstand something?

I can say that it would probably be the only elapid snake show i would bother going to.

for those that havnt heard about it he sticks them in a fridge(this makes them go into a state of torpor and MAY reduce or eliminate pain) then surgically removes the venom glands and replaces them with silicone implants, According to him all opperations have been successful without any casualties. The snakes feed soon after the surgery and apparantly return to the exact same life style as before(without being tailed, hooked and pinned).

Its abit like tail docking in dogs it is of benifit to the owner and animal alike but obviously alot of ppl think it is wrong.


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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My fear was the 'gluing the mouth shut' comment made earlier in this post. you make some great discussion cris, but I still have my doubts about the vadillity of removing a venomous snakes' venom glands so it can be handled. Even if they can go on and lead a normal healthy life... Two comments I make to this... One... If the snake did by chance escape, and let's face it, snakes are escape artists, then the snake wouldn't survive in the wild, where it possibly could have had a chance with venom glands (this is my opinion no scientific facts basing on this), secondly I cringe at the thought of having my tonsils removed under GENERAL anaesthetic let alon just being cooled. 

Perhaps the snake can lead a normal captive live and be happy(ish) but lets face it.. if they were that placid then there's no need to remove venom glands at all then is there??? Just don't let the general populous handle the snakes...

And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't venomous snakes have incredibly sharp teeth that could do equal amount of damage regardless of venom or not??? 

I see NO point in de-venoming, gluing or any such archaic method for preventing the snakes from passing their venom... I seriously think that no matter how good you say the snakes are... there's no need for it! 

People need to be awe inspired by looking at Taipans through glass... That's how I got so inspired in the first place!

Well, that's my soap box used up... gonna slip away now and get the second lot of pop -corn....

but Cris, thanks for the intelligent posts... nice!


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

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So this thread posted by an excited member who held their 1st collete turns into yet another debate about Ray Hoser &amp; his Herp keeping methods. Its a shame people have to continuously repeat themselves even after there has been a multitude of threads about venomoids in the past. IMO It is nothing more than an attempt of pushing 1's thoughts &amp; opinions onto others. If it makes you feel any better post the petition link, but dont turn the thread into yet another slinging match where you can have a free shot at Hoser. 

As for gluing the mouths shut how gullible are you?
Never happened as far as I know &amp; I wouldn't take 1's word based on hearsay as gospel.


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

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how would they go about de-venoming a snake?


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## Wrasse (Sep 10, 2006)

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cris said:


> This discussion is very logical :roll:
> I still havnt worked out why snakes that are so traumatized by losing their venom seem to be so happy to be handled, mate, feed etc. I heard ppl say that if a snake is doing these things it is being looked after properly or did i misunderstand something?



Stockholm syndrome


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

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sorry, didnt see the other two pages, interesting cris. pretty horrible though.


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

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> If the snake did by chance escape, and let's face it, snakes are escape artists, then the snake wouldn't survive in the wild


that is a good point in reality because they wouldnt be native to the area.

Also no one glues snakes mouths together(i hope) thats why i pointed out what actually happens


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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ha, more venomoid sympathises. unbeliveable.! sounds like you might be in the wrong game too, try growing flowers instead.


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## GreenWillow (Sep 10, 2006)

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That's funny, Wrasse!

I would like to see some of Australia's uni's offer a degree in Incompetence, with the option of post-grad work. 

Incompetence 101 - Revoming Venom Glands Using Refridgeration as Pain Control, and Supporting Subject on Plank of Wood with Rusty Nails.


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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TrueBlue said:


> ha, more venomoid sympathises. unbeliveable.! sounds like you might be in the wrong game too, try growing flowers instead.



Who TB?

And flowers are also dangerous.... bees... hmmmm... plus hayfever... yep.. allergies...


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

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No sympathy here for neither Ray or the Elapids he owns.
Sympathy is not in my vocabulary when it comes to items of no concern to myself. My statement is made in the attempt to have atleast 1 thread go past without the whinging, complaining &amp; slagging which seems to be the norm.


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## Wrasse (Sep 10, 2006)

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cris said:


> for those that havnt heard about it he sticks them in a fridge(this makes them go into a state of torpor and MAY reduce or eliminate pain) then surgically removes the venom glands and replaces them with silicone implants, According to him all opperations have been successful without any casualties. The snakes feed soon after the surgery and apparantly return to the exact same life style as before(without being tailed, hooked and pinned).
> 
> Its abit like tail docking in dogs it is of benifit to the owner and animal alike but obviously alot of ppl think it is wrong.



Actually, this is NOTHING like tail docking in dogs. Which I might add, is now illegal and had no benefit to owner or dogs, it is purely cosmetic.

Tail docking was done when the puppies are a few days old. A scissor snip, tail is cut and either a quick cauterise to the tip, or a stitch. Very quick, I will not say it was painless, as the puppies would jump and yelp, so they clearly didn't like it, but over in less than a minute.

There is no way that sticking a snake in a fridge, then performing an open surgery, without anaesthesia or pain killers can be considered similar to tail docking.

Did I mention tail docking, for all it's quickness, is illegal due to unneccessary cruelty ? Yeap, I think I did.

'Devenoming' would be rather akin to debarking a dog, which involves a similar sort of procedure, although debarking is done under anaesthesia and with pain killers. Did I mention that debarking is illegal too ? Another unneccessary procedure.

I still don't understand how it can be that docking tails, quick and over in a minute, and debarking, done with anaesthesia can be illegal, and yet devenoming isn't. Go figure.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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cris seems to think its a good idea.?? :shock: 

...and JandC, dont know nor have ever spoken to the bloke.?? I dont care whos done it, but IMO ANYNOE who has to do such things to diplay reptiles for their safety is incompetent, period.
Ive displayed snakes over the years in display cages, pits etc, at schools, shows etc and have never had a problem with venomous snakes and handled them all.??


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

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> ha, more venomoid sympathises. unbeliveable.! sounds like you might be in the wrong game too, try growing flowers instead.


I admit i dont keep reptiles for the danger or to make me feel more secure as a man. I keep them because i find them interesting i dont care one bit about them being able to kill a captive elapid is the same thing to me even if it doesnt have venom glands. After all the only thing it can use the venom for is injecting into the keeper and i dont find that makes them any better(or worse) of an animal.

each to their own.


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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oooooooh.. Does Ray know this Wrasse??? Wow... that's the best statement yet... if this was a debate you clinched it! it's like you practiced that... Hands down it beats my "won't survive in the wild" and "if it aint broke don't fix it" comments.... (the latter being doctored to make it sound good)... I think we should put Wrasse and Ray in the same enclosure and let them debate it out.... I say.. without a doubt, Wrasse would win hands down...


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

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I am NOT condoning what he does here.
I am simply asking that 1 thread go by without the usual comments associated with the names "Ray Hoser or Venomoids". It has all been said a million times before. We all know your opinion on the subject and honestly I think the majority can decide for themselves how they feel about the proceedure. It would of been nice if somebody could have shared the original posters excitement &amp; maybe even encouraging them in this hobby. Instead it has yet again resorted to arguments for &amp; against venomoids.


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## Australis (Sep 10, 2006)

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For anyone intrested in signing a petition against this cruel act here is the link:

http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/

Matt


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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:shock: :roll: unbelivable, is that how you justify your stance.?? pretty lame.
keeping elapids has nothing to do with being a man and if people keep them for such reasons they also should not be keeping them. (funny how its the first thing that pops into your head.?)
Evolution has given these animals what they have and its part of what they are and if you truely belive that removing their venom glands is a justifiable procedure for any reason, let alone to make you feel safe then IMO you are definitly in the wrong game mate.
Try growing pansies, i think roses might be a bit risky.


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## slim6y (Sep 10, 2006)

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I just signed the petition... disgustingly tho... only 1321 signatures and yet some 16548 visitors to that site... But I guess, as per usual, the populace go about their every day life with the attitude... what i don't know can't harm me

Well fooey to that... Everyone who has written on this thread surely must sign that petition (this is the first I knew it was there or even where it was).


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## Wrasse (Sep 10, 2006)

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JandC_Reptiles, encouraging someone to be happy and excited about a cruel act is cruelty in itself. Quite possibly the original poster had no idea how this procedure was performed.

Yes, we could have all kept quiet, but how would people learn about this sort of thing if we all shut up and keep it to ourselves.

Ray could have just as good a show with pythons and non ven colubrids.


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## GreenWillow (Sep 10, 2006)

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"bad things happen when good men do nothing"

There are some topics that get people so het up they cannot help but voice their disgust and disapproval. The benefit of this is that those who were not aware or such an issue may be made aware.


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

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I couldnt care less if you think the way i think is lame, Im not looking for an arguement i was just putting foward the way i see the issue. If you dont like it its your problem not mine.


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## alumba (Sep 10, 2006)

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TrueBlue said:


> i find this practice totally and utterly incompetent, any body that has to remove venom glands from snakes to feel safe should NOT be keeping them in the first place.
> I truley belive that it is about time that the bunch of incompetent fools that go under the name snakebusters need to be removed from the industry, by choice or force, and take up another profession.
> maybe keeping budgies or goldfish would be more suited to their incompetence.



nicely said trueblue

couldn't have said it better my self


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

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well i, for one, am glad that this post has continued the way it has. I had very little idea of this procedure and the debate has raised some interesting points. I have one question though, does the venom have any purpose outside of incapacitating prey? Does venom, specifically hemotoxic, aid with digestion for example?


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## Garry2 (Sep 10, 2006)

tebz..... Glad you are so excited about your experience and hope you have more good times ahead.

As for the rest of you read the first post and start again... you should be ashamed of your behaviour... the post was not about you and your opoinions but about someone elses exitment.

Shame Shame Shame.


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

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> Does venom, specifically hemotoxic, aid with digestion for example?


apparently it makes no differance in australian species, but it does play a role for some exotic species. Also just as not all pythons constrict dead prey ot all elapids inject into dead prey.


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

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ahh interesting point cris. but just creates more questions: when an elapid strikes, does it select whether to envenomate? that is to say, can it strike at prey without injecting venom?


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## GreatSage (Sep 10, 2006)

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"I truley belive that it is about time that the bunch of incompetent fools that go under the name snakebusters need to be removed from the industry, by choice or force, and take up another profession. "

Can't something be done! I can't see how this practice hasn't been made illegal in our day and age!

"As for the rest of you read the first post and start again... you should be ashamed of your behaviour... "

I am glad that he is exhited however it would be far better if it wasn't via such a Barberic-Group who
clearly show pure disregard for herps and the education on society on herps!


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## Australis (Sep 10, 2006)

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Im not ashamed at all


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

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cris, sorry but i disagree again, venom would help digestion in australian elapids.
True some captive elapids dont always envenomate when they feed but most still do.


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## Garry2 (Sep 10, 2006)

We all know what peoples opinions are on this what we dont want is it continually shove down our throats each time someone post a new topic 
Use the site for what it was intended ..... Helpful info
I am sorry you could not work that one out.


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## Australis (Sep 10, 2006)

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Hoser claims on his site that Aussie Elapids dont need it to digest, he also claims the fridge method stops any pain during the operation. He claims alot, but doesnt provide proof to back it up.

I wouldnt trust any information on his site, he doest have a good record of telling the truth!!

Regardless of any stance a person may or may not have on the Venomoids, the fact is, it is currently ilegal for Raymond Hoser to perform this operation, or any operation!!!!


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## bredli84 (Sep 10, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE*

This was all news to me too. Wrasse and cris both put forward good points, but IMO people shoud be discouraged from handling vens, surely such displays could result in the uninitiated running off to catch their own tiger/taipan etc which coud end in disaster? anyway i signed the petition.


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## Australis (Sep 10, 2006)

Garry2 said:


> We all know what peoples opinions are on this what we dont want is it continually shove down our throats each time someone post a new topic
> Use the site for what it was intended ..... Helpful info
> I am sorry you could not work that one out.



This is "Helpful info"

Some people still dont know about Venomoids, some people at Hosers shows handling these animals dont even know what they really are or how they are created.

I think explaining this to new people is "helpful".

Do you have anything "helpful" to add "Garry2"????????? :roll: 


Matt


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

hold on garry,

true blue and cris are giving me some very useful info, and the others giving great opinions, which, for the record, i didn't already know and are completely relevant to the original topic.

and on that point, can a elapid strike without envenomating?


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## elapid68 (Sep 10, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

Unfortunalty I have to admit those Colletts were some of my babies that I sold to He That Shall Remain Nameless who then venomoided them. Vemonoided or not, they're still awesome critters.
(shameless promo follows) All my Colletts are mating like mad at the moment so once they start hatching if anyone wants some, I'll be sure to post when they're available.


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

> We all know what peoples opinions are on this what we dont want is it continually shove down our throats each time someone post a new topic
> Use the site for what it was intended ..... Helpful info
> I am sorry you could not work that one out.


There are plenty of ppl here who wouldnt even have known what a venomoid was until they read this thread. I dont see why its wrong for me to put my view accross ppl are free to go and make up their own minds. I also accept that my view isnt the popular one. I suggest that anyone who doesnt know about this go to the link for the petition(on the last page) read through the all of papers that are linked and make up there own minds. Then if you want to, sign the petetion too.


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## Garry2 (Sep 10, 2006)

Helpful info is good and yes there is a lot of that in this post but if you check the last *five *pages of this topic you will see more opinions than info... 
though it was an info site and not a flame site.
Sorry but you get sick of all the rubbish that goes with info


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## Australis (Sep 10, 2006)

cris said:


> There are plenty of ppl here who wouldnt even have known what a venomoid was until they read this thread. I dont see why its wrong for me to put my view accross ppl are free to go and make up their own minds. I also accept that my view isnt the popular one. I suggest that anyone who doesnt know about this go to the link for the petition(on the last page) read through the all of papers that are linked and make up there own minds. Then if you want to, sign the petetion too.



Well said cris, im also surprised how many people still havnt heard much on this topic.


Matt


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## Kiwicam (Sep 10, 2006)

andrew_555 said:


> and on that point, can a elapid strike without envenomating?



Slightly relevant, have been reading about Cobras as I find them very interesting and venom in general (interesting stuff like a simple sugar molecule protects a Cobra from it's own venom), 
Quote as follows....

"Not all snakebites result in envenomation. In the case of cobras, the percentage of blank bites may be quite high, 45% in one series of 47 cases from Malaysia. In another series, 1 of 3 snake charmers bitten by large king cobras showed no signs of envenomation. "

From http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic544.htm


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Sep 10, 2006)

> shameless promo follows) All my Colletts are mating like mad at the moment so once they start hatching if anyone wants some, I'll be sure to post when they're available.


shameless promo worked.
pm sent


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

Interesting kiwicam, thanks for the stats.

Really interesting stuff.


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## PremierPythons (Sep 10, 2006)

Garry2 said:


> tebz..... Glad you are so excited about your experience and hope you have more good times ahead.
> 
> As for the rest of you read the first post and start again... you should be ashamed of your behaviour... the post was not about you and your opoinions but about someone elses exitment.
> 
> Shame Shame Shame.



Are you serious mate? You can't express your opinions on this board now if it takes away from someone's excitement?? So what if (for example) someone posts a topic - "I'm so excited - I just killed my first snake" - are we still allowed to be critical eventhough it takes away from his excitement?


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## GreenWillow (Sep 10, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SN*

Imagine if noone had voiced their disgust about what was happening to Jews et. al. in Germany in the 1930/40's. Or if people continued to hold their tounges about whaling because other people know how they feel about it already and are well able to make up their own minds. And look at what has been the result of silence about the abuse of women and children in some Aboriginal communities.

Silence can all too easily be misinterpreted as complicity.

Sometimes we need to continue to voice our anger and disgust so that the message continues to get across (or may eventually fitler through), and so that those who don't know can learn.

I'm not comparing the voiding of venomous snakes to the sexual abuse of an Aboriginal child or the gassing of millions of Jews, but this thread has morphed into a very valid discussion on whether or not members of a community should speak up when they see harm and wrong being done. 

I believe Ray Hoser is doing harm and wrong.

Hear my angry voice raised!


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOU*

and what a voice! well said lily


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

How can you compare a person who operates on his own snakes to millions of innocent people slaughtered by a dictator or the innocent slaughter of Whales by the Japanese? Bit different don't you think? Ray may cause harm to his own animals but he isn't effecting an entire population unlike Hitlers stance or the act of culling vulnerable species of aquatic mammals.

Voicing anger is all good atm while it suits the majority but what about when somebody has a differing opinion than the mass? Should Afro be re-instated as a Mod because he voiced his opinions about Steve Irwin being a egotistical goose that caused undue stress to wildlife? Atleast he didn't try to force it down peoples throats everytime Steve was mentioned. What about if a member constantly raises their voice about the feeding of rodents &amp; insects and posts that opinion in every thread that makes mention of either? That would be a valid point to some I would suppose. Or the fact that Reptiles should remain un-spoilt in their natural enviornment THE WILD? Again a fair call to make if you felt so inclined.

Members could of easily posted Rays site address and asked the poster to take a read, its called education. But instead the mass prefer to take shots at the man and get into heated arguments. Even if the topic made no mention of venomoids but just mentioned Ray or Snakebusters the mass would of pounced like a pack of pittbulls on a poodle.


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## GreenWillow (Sep 10, 2006)

> How can you compare a person who operates on his own snakes to millions of innocent people slaughtered by a dictator or the innocent slaughter of Whales by the Japanese? Bit different don't you think? Ray may cause harm to his own animals but he isn't effecting an entire population unlike Hitlers stance or the act of culling vulnerable species of aquatic mammals.



Please re-read the fourth paragraph of my post.

If a society stays silent on an issue they see is wrong, then there is every chance nothing will change. If, instead, members of that society continue to voice their opinions loud and clear then there is a chance they may bring about some change and stop something they see as injust, immoral, cruel, illegal, ridiculous or just plain wrong.

I am not trying to stop you saying what you think. I just pointed out some situations where God knows what may have happened had some folk not said what they think.

Some people think NOONE should cause harm to ANY animal, no matter whether or not they "own" it!

To take the argument to it's furthest degree, or draw another long bow, would we sit by quietly while a father beat up his son because it was "his son"?


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

Ok but how is CONSTANTLY bagging out Ray Hoser (regardless of topic) and continuously arguing about Venomoids going to help any?

As I said if it is to inform newbies of the proceedure a simple link to Rays site will give all the detailed information they need. They can then determin for themselves how they feel about it. There is NO reason to call the guy names, insult his intelligence &amp; slander him.

Anyway whats with Afro? Why is it a big thing now that his opinions are NOT OF APS ANYMORE? I guess having a differing opinion IS an issue after all.


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

> Some people think NOONE should cause harm to ANY animal, no matter whether or not they "own" it!


These ppl are called vegans :lol:


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## GreenWillow (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes, I agree with you that there is no need for the insults and slander. In a perfect world (and don't we wish!) people could express how passionately they feel about issues without needing to resort to this.

But atleast arguing about topic keeps it fresh in peoples minds. I, personally, am having difficulty forgetting about the new IR legislation :roll: Though I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing :? 

Re other matters that are not related to this thread, I will pm you.


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## Ramsayi (Sep 10, 2006)

If you want to find out about what happens with regard to how his voids are created then go to the petition site and look at the links on the right hand side of the page.The info on most of those links take you to Hosers site.Also look at the long list of official supporters from ALL over the world.

If you disagree with what he is doing then sign the petition if not then at least you have some facts.

J and C,For someone who doesn't care about things that don't affect you directly you always seem to bang on about Hoser/venomoid threads.Might be just me but I find it a tad odd.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

I understand that lilly, &amp; it is a valid point.
But passionate or not it is a breach of APS rules.
I don't think just because a member feels passionate about a certain topic they should be able to slander a person. It would be no different to having an activist join this site and slander all its members for keeping animals caged. They wouldn't last here too long &amp; you know that to be fact. I am sure not 1 member here would appreciate being abused simply because some1 else has a differing opinion.

Ramsayi, 
Banging on? No that would be everybody else.
I am simply stating facts, slandering people is against APS rules.
And what he does dosn't effect me. But reading constant repetative slander does. It irates me.


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## Australis (Sep 10, 2006)

Ive already posted the Petition link which has plenty of links to Hosers site. All of which is enough to Educate someone on what he is doing regarding Venomoiding.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

slander, wheres the slander??.
all i see are peoples opinions?, and IMO, ANYONE who calls themselves an animal keeper and have to surgicaly modifiy the animals for their own safety are incompetent in what they are doing and should not be doing it. simple.!!.


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

I agree generally with what is being said, the only concern that i have is that it seems particularly one sided. I would rather like to hear responses by Ray Hoser.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

Do you really think Ray would want to join this site and give a response? The mob would lynch him (which has happened on numerous other sites).

As for the slander, insinuating that he glues animals mouths shut is slanderous &amp; a defaming of character. But hey dig up any post containing the words Ray Hoser or Snakebusters and you will see plenty of slander. I also think the venomoids are for the benefit of the audience of his displays in his opinion, it has nothing to do with his safety, confidence or incompetance as far as I am aware. I am sure he is just as confident handling a non venomoid After all hasn't Ray also got Elapids that are not modified? And those that are now voided were they not in his possesion before the proceedure? (obvious since he did the proceedure himself) So it is fair to say in order for him to get his licence as well as a public display licence he would of had to show experience with Elapids? And I am sure alot of members jumped at the chance to vouch for him lol. Don't sound incompetant to me.

Or will you now imply that any1 can get a licence, in which case you are calling the officials incompetant in their job?


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## andrew_555 (Sep 10, 2006)

Of course i dont think he would come onto the forum. It is a shame, in circumstances such as this it is important that he justify his actions, for his sake as much as the community.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

Justify his actions? 
Why should anyone have to justify themselves to a group of strangers over the internet? Thats my point, you all think you are his judge, jurror &amp; executioner rolled into 1.


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## Australis (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh please :lol: , slandering Ray Hoser :roll: He is the master of slander himself! 
He has been banned from forums across the world for his slander and threats!

And its not slander when its all true :wink: 


I would be glad to see Ray contribute in a positive manner on any forum, i dont think anyone needs to worry about Raymond being upset by these claimed "Hoser Bashing" threads, he would be loving the publicity  

Matt


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## NCHERPS (Sep 10, 2006)

At the end of the day people on these forums and other like them will always feel it necessary to make comment, good or bad.
If you don't want to read another 'Venomoid' thread, then simply don't, just ignore it and move on, to keep commenting on it when you don't like this type of thread is adding fuel to the fire IMO, and only prolongs the threads existence and profile.
I agree that it has been brought up and spoke about alot in the past, but that is because people are passionate about the topic, the majority of course are passionate about stopping it from happening to other venomous snakes when it isn't necessary.
There are of course many new people joining APS every day, and so new members who haven't heard about Venomoids and Ray's chosen method of carrying out the proceedure can make up there own minds, you make out as if people haven't got the common sense to make up there own judgements after evaluating the evidence.
If there is indeed any real slander, I am sure that we will be made aware of it by Mr Hoser himself, and if it is justifyed then it will be removed.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

NCHERPS said:


> There are of course many new people joining APS every day, and so new members who haven't heard about Venomoids and Ray's chosen method of carrying out the proceedure can make up there own minds, you make out as if people haven't got the common sense to make up there own judgements after evaluating the evidence.



How do I make out like people havn't got the common sense?
IT WAS ME who stated throw up the link &amp; let them make their own decisions.
IT WAS ME who stated post the petition link than leave it at that.
IT WAS ME telling others not to continuously repeat themselves &amp; force their opinion onto others. I insisted post a thread to the facts &amp; than leave the post alone as there is no need to repeat whats already been said and slander Ray (which is usually the outcome). 

Tell me this, if that is the case &amp; your honest opinion NCHERPS, then why is there a need for MULTIPLE people to state the exact same thing in this 1 thread? I mean it was all said in post number 2 than again in post number 3 than 4 than 5 than 6 etc. Come on, you single me out and say I dont give people credit haha, I am not the 1 repeating the 15 posts before mine word for word trying to drum it into the newbies heads


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

sounds to me like hes lost what competence he had to make him what to do something like that.
For the audience, pffftttt, a lame excusse to justify incompetence.


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## dee4 (Sep 10, 2006)

And I do beleive it was you JandC that brought up his name!!! 
It also seems apparant that your the one throwing all the names around. Give it a rest, 1/2 the threads I read have you in there bashing someone or another and then trying to justify yourself. BACK OFF.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

I havn't bashed anybody nor have I named anybody. I suggest you re-read through my posts. You wont see me calling Hoser incompetent in this or any other thread, You wont see me bagging Irwin or any other high or low profile Herper. You wont see me abusing owners or creators of Hybrids. You are very mistaken. I asked members to post a link to Hosers site &amp; than leave this thread alone because I know how anything to do with Ray turns out. And as usual it starts with 1 than 2 than 3 4 5 6 and so on posts about venomoids &amp; how its done by an incompetent Herper blah blah. As for me starting it pleaseeee, I really think you should re-read the thread, I didnt remark untill he 3rd page of bashings and insinuatings that Hoser should take up knitting and so on where I asked members not to turn this into yet another venomoid debate where they take cheap shots at Hoser. So I am in the wrong for asking members to be civilised? So be it then. 

So name 1 person I have attacked, bashed or slandered?
I think you will find I am the 1defending the bashed &amp; slandered.

BACK OFF? My opinions are just as valid as any1 elses here. As I have breached no rules there is no need to tell me to back off just because I share a differing view. I am sure if it is needed the owners or moderators will let me know when I am out of line. BUT No worries I will back off now I have made my point.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 10, 2006)

Like ive said i dont know nor have ever spoken to hoser, and ive said ANYONE, hes not the only person in the world to do this and my opinion is also directed at them.!!
once again,- ANYONE who does this to keep these animals what ever the reason IMO is incompetent, and yes should take up something more suited to their competence, theres many things they could do, i only gave a few examples.
you seem to have a problem of some sorts Jandc.


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## cris (Sep 10, 2006)

In what way are these ppl somehow incompetant?


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 10, 2006)

I have a problem because I ask for a thread to remain civil DAMNNNN!

I am sure when you suggested Ray take up knitting etc it was said in a genuine manner with no sarcasm involved. Pfftt. Anyway for some1 that constantly bags out any Herper with a bigger name in the hobby than yourself to say I have a problem of some sort is nothing more than comical imo. Bit like the kettle calling the pot black although in this case the kettle would be talking to the toaster as I havn't slagged off anybody. This coming from the guy who insists a certain deceased Herper doesn't know diddly about reptiles (yes I can dig up your posts if you like &amp; I havn't repeated all that was said due to content). And Dee has the gaul to say I verbally bash ppl lol. The only problem I seem to have is that if I dont share the opinion of the majority than I am labelled with a problem of some sort 

Ray isn't incompetent at all Cris, he keeps alot of Elapids &amp; is very much competent. More so than those here who have never handled an Elapid &amp; still hold a class 1 licence but seem to be in a position to call him incompetent lol (yes you youngins &amp; newbies know who you are). He did voiding for his displays which are now more popular than other displays due to the hands on approach getting jobs in schools &amp; shopping malls etc, so Ray is getting more business than other exhibitionists and in turn more money than the others. Regardless of what the ill informed will say, that is part reason for the anti-Ray debacle (notice I said anti-Ray not anti-venomoid before you jump on the soap box)

Anyways enjoy this thread guys I have been asked to back off! 
You can PM any further issues you have trueblue or any1 else.


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## NCHERPS (Sep 10, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> NCHERPS said:
> 
> 
> > There are of course many new people joining APS every day, and so new members who haven't heard about Venomoids and Ray's chosen method of carrying out the proceedure can make up there own minds, you make out as if people haven't got the common sense to make up there own judgements after evaluating the evidence.
> ...



That's my point, you have just said it yourself, you believe that because people wish to talk about the issue alot, that they are brain washing(or in your words'Drumming it into Newbies heads').
Just because they are newbies, doesn't mean they are nieve young kids, many are well educated adults with there own minds, more than capable of making up there own minds without the need for any drumming, if they feel that what is being said is repetative, then they can simply not click on the next page or the next page of the thread.
No one is having there opinions Forced onto others at all.
Why didn't you post up the link to Hosers site if you felt that it was one sided?


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## Kiwicam (Sep 11, 2006)

Well I checked out some pics of Mr. Hosers so called 'Operations', and I must admit I was disgusted! The poor thing taped to a lump of wood with a bunch of nails in it with it's mouth forced open by way of some rubber bands!

I thought OK so he is operating, and expected to see a slightly professional and sterile setup....wrong! That crap looks like something out of 'Hostel', (I know those sutures sure as hell are, either that or the cat did them)!!
Complete with madman hacking away at defenceless creatures to compensate for his own inadequacies...these ppl should be stopped!

Also I have failed to find any reference to MR. Hosers Veterinary Degree... (made clearly evident by the conditions), correct me if I am wrong.
You know I always wanted to be a Doctor, maybe I should tape some ppl to a block of wood and operate for no good reason...actually I think I can do that in Eastern Europe somewhere!

So that's my opinion - like it or leave it, but I am certainly not gonna sit on here and bicker about it.


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## andrew_555 (Sep 11, 2006)

good point kiwicam,

the point remains that we (as civilised people) cannot simpy operate on animals without the correct training. If i have an enclosure and the snake is a a little to big for it, do i peg it out on a wooden board and shorten it a little? Do vets even do this devenoming procedure?


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## TrueBlue (Sep 11, 2006)

cris, do i really have to reapeat myself again.?? :roll: 

JandC,- when i suggested ANYONE who does this is in the wrong profession and should maybe take up knitting, im deadly serious as thats how i feel about it. IMO they are incompetent to even consider this behavour, and definitly need to be removed from the industry.!!!!
Constantly bagging big name herpers, :roll: , who prey tell, theres only a couple that ive bagged and i have valid reasons, someone rips me off ill let them know, and yes my opinion of your mentioned dead herper still stands, thats my opinion. There is also enough proof out there to varify my opinion.!!


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## andrew_555 (Sep 11, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> Justify his actions?
> Why should anyone have to justify themselves to a group of strangers over the internet? Thats my point, you all think you are his judge, jurror &amp; executioner rolled into 1.



fairly simpistic argument you have there. To allow action without justification, in this laissez faire fashion, is irresponsible. People should have the right to question the actions of others, otherwise we would be, in our silence, condoning his actions. If he can justify what he does, then this conversation would likely take a different course. I am open to changing my opinion of this matter.


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## NoOne (Sep 11, 2006)

It still amazes me that people bother to argue with J and C, it's obvious he just trying to have an arguement, why bother wasting your time with him, your not going to change his mind.

Every thread where there has been a pretty one sided feeling he jumps in and stirs people, people don't waste your time on him.................thats my opinion just as valid as anyone. :lol:


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## junglepython2 (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*



> all those snakes were so freely being handled.. 4 yo kids were passing around collets snakes



Doesn't that say it all, a 4 yo kid isn't going to know any better when he sees one in the wild.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

ya duga ive just realised that, some people just have no idea at all.


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## andrew_555 (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

i think J and C raises some interesting points. It is always good to have someone playing devils advocate, there are too many mutual appreciation societies around. Although i dont necessarily agree with his views, i am glad that he made them.


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## rodentrancher (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

Lordy, is HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED STILL AROUND? Thought he would have been lynched by now? :lol:


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## cris (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*



> Doesn't that say it all, a 4 yo kid isn't going to know any better when he sees one in the wild.


I imagine there is going to be a rapid increase in fatal collets snake bites in melbourne, very sad :wink: Its no differant to letting them handle harmless snakes(they are harmless anyway) the average kid wouldnt know any differant.

TB, I still dont understand how these ppl are somehow incompetant? you have mentioned it in just about every post in this thread, could you please explain.


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## andrew_555 (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

i dont mean to speak on behalf of TB, but backyard surgery surely falls under that category. Even the wisest members of this forum would advice vetenary consultation on such matters. Also, others suggested that those who choose to own elapids should be prepared to keep them in their complete form. If i wanted a scrub python, yet did not like one of it's characteristics, size for example, should i simply under feed it to stunt it's growth? Or perhaps remove teeth of a particularly bitey jungle.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

:roll: , ANYBODY who would consider to do this for any reason is in my opinion incometent. If you cannot handle an animal the way it is, dont do it, simple. They, JandC and yourself can cry all you want about how it can be justified but if you are truley into the animals for what they are,(not want you want them to be), there is no way in hell you can justifiy it.
Now it seems the excuse is for profit, :roll: , another pathetic excuse for incompetence.
Here we go folks, lets rip the venom glands out of our snakes so we can make more money. :shock: :roll: 
Now that is pathetic and incompetent.


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## snakes4me2 (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

ok then cris....tell me why it is ok to do it?, what is the point of it? (apart from being incompetent and too scared to hold a venomous snake)


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## cris (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

What you are saying just doesnt make sence TB how are they incompetant? The way you are using the word doesnt make any sence to me.
I have heard you say they are incompetant a few times now what do you mean by it? there are heaps of ppl who are clearly competant snake handlers who have voided snakes having a voided snake cant magically make someone an incompetant handler so what are they incompetant at?



> ok then cris....tell me why it is ok to do it?, what is the point of it? (apart from being incompetent and too scared to hold a venomous snake)


Its OK for ppl to do this to their own animals if they want too, Its up to the idividual how they treat their animals IMO.
As i said earlier i dont want to get in an arguement so im not going to give any more of a responce than that.


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## andrew_555 (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

i cant stand the irony any more guys, incompetent is spelt with an 'e'


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## snakes4me2 (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

Thats fair enough, i can understand not wanting to argue. I will try for TB to explain it.

By incopmetent he means if you arent game enough to handle a venomous snake then dont.
Dont devenomise them so you can say "hey im cool i got a venomous snake" thats not even venomous.

I would love a tiapan but would only have it with venom, its the way the snake is


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## TrueBlue (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

:roll: come on cris geezz.
Those "heaps" of people that you refer to imo are clearly NOT competent at all, they may of been at some stage, but if they have to remove venom glads to make themselves or peolpe around them feel safer then they are definitly INCOMPETENT.!! and definitly need to be removed from the industry.
Is that clear enough for you to understand.!!!!!


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## cris (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*



> By incopmetent he means if you arent game enough to handle a venomous snake then dont.
> Dont devenomise them so you can say "hey im cool i got a venomous snake" thats not even venomous.


Im am against this too, but there are heaps of ppl who dont fit this category. There are also plenty of ppl who keep non venomous snakes and venomous elapids for the wrong reasons too, IMO this is a seperate issue.



> i cant stand the irony any more guys, incompetent is spelt with an 'e'


 :shock: oh no i made a spelling mistake am i going to lose any marks? :lol:


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## andrew_555 (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

 no cris, still full marks, just ironic


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## cris (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

I got what you mean now TB, its only if someone chooses to use voids when they are able to use venomous snakes that they are comepent, but if they need to do it then they are incompetent. I got it now im just a bit slow.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

No, wrong again cris. imo anyone who "chooses" to use voids shows "definite" signs of incompetence.
Any competent keeper/handler would never consider doing this no matter what the reason maybe.
In my eyes there is no way at all that a competent keeper/handler could ever justify this.


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## cris (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

OK i dont understand you, i think i just forget about it now


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## Nome (Sep 11, 2006)

> ts OK for ppl to do this to their own animals if they want too, Its up to the idividual how they treat their animals IMO.
> As i said earlier i dont want to get in an arguement so im not going to give any more of a responce than that.



That isn't true Cris, there is laws that stop people treating their animals badly, just read the animal cruelty act. And there is a law AGAINST PEOPLE WHO OPERATE ANIMALS WITHOUT A LICENSE....simple, what he does is against the law.

J&amp;C it's good you try and put a different perspective across, i have in the past enjoyed reading your arguments....but accusing people on here of slander is very ironic coming from you :lol:


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## moosenoose (Sep 11, 2006)

Hehehe I've only read page one and already this thread seems to be going along so smoothly :lol: I wonder why???? 8)

ps: Voids are wrong! :wink: Can't handle em with it, don't get em!


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## kabuto (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

im with you TrueBlue. People love hyper-reality experiences thats why so many people go to disneyland and fun parks-its al so scary but safe. Having venom glands removed is sending a wrong message.


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## tebz (Sep 11, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

how tha hell does any of this happen to do with me handling a venomous or non venomous, i mean on the first page i gto sum guy tellin us hes eatin popcorn?!?!! who carez?!?!?! this is a herpetology website not a food website man wat a bad mistake it was to open up this thread thankyou for the ppl that actually talked bout the snake and the diamo fair and yes it was an excellent setup and he was handling adders n taipans lyk they were just junk from the street well seeya,tebzzzzzzzz


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## JandC_Reptiles (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*



TrueBlue said:


> :roll: , ANYBODY who would consider to do this for any reason is in my opinion incometent. If you cannot handle an animal the way it is, dont do it, simple. They, JandC and yourself can cry all you want about how it can be justified but if you are truley into the animals for what they are,(not want you want them to be), there is no way in hell you can justifiy it.
> Now it seems the excuse is for profit, :roll: , another pathetic excuse for incompetence.
> Here we go folks, lets rip the venom glands out of our snakes so we can make more money. :shock: :roll:
> Now that is pathetic and incompetent.


 I have not once tried to justify what he does. I have never condoned his actions nor have I applauded them. AGAIN I have simply stated that the accusations &amp; slander (many of which are false such as gluing mouth shut &amp; implying he only works with modified Elapids) should not persist in these threads. I guess I was expecting too much from you guys. 



Nome said:


> J&amp;C it's good you try and put a different perspective across, i have in the past enjoyed reading your arguments....but accusing people on here of slander is very ironic coming from you :lol:


 The irony is insinuating I have slandered people. Go through every post on here I have never attacked anybody. Whats more ironic is the fact that I am being set upon for asking others not to slander. Who figures.



dugadugabowbow said:


> It still amazes me that people bother to argue with J and C, it's obvious he just trying to have an arguement, why bother wasting your time with him, your not going to change his mind.
> 
> Every thread where there has been a pretty one sided feeling he jumps in and stirs people, people don't waste your time on him.................thats my opinion just as valid as anyone. :lol:


 I am not trying to have an argument at all, again I will say go re-read my posts. I asked the community to keep it civil and not start another crusade against Ray or venomoids. My fault I shouldn't of expected too much. And you now think you have the right to ask people to not speak to me and label me an arguement seeker because I do not agree 100% with your thoughts? Sorry duga this is a public forum not a concentration camp. You can't dictate my opinions.



snakes4me2 said:


> Thats fair enough, i can understand not wanting to argue. I will try for TB to explain it.
> 
> By incopmetent he means if you arent game enough to handle a venomous snake then dont.
> Dont devenomise them so you can say "hey im cool i got a venomous snake" thats not even venomous.
> ...


 But you miss the fact that HE DOES OWN and DOES HANDLE non modified Elapids that are very much venomous. Can you point us to any facts that show Ray does the operation for machoism? You clearly stated above "Dont devenomise them so you can say "hey im cool i got a venomous snake" thats not even venomous". 

I don't see why having a differing opinion or not agreeing with the majority labels me a trouble maker looking for an argument. It's a real shame that you guys feel every1 has to agree with you (hence I said drumming it into peoples heads). Pretty obvious that if somebody dosn't agree they must be looking for an argument in your opinion. 

Anyway as I have already said anything further to say or direct at me can be posted to my PM as the owners/moderators would like the arguing to stop. So this incompetent venomoid loving arguement seeking trouble maker would prefer to discuss it there if you like so I am not labelled anything else for not sharing the entire communities opinion. So lets make it clear, I will not be responding or replying here. If you have something to say shoot me a PM.


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## AntaresiaLady (Sep 14, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*

I believe that handing 4 year olds snakes that could potentially kill them (if they picked one up in real life) is a stupid and irresponsible practice. 

Young children don't understand the premise 'here hold this snake, it won't hurt you, but if you see one in the bush- don't pick it up- it will kill you'. Kids will see a snake...think ooohhh thats like the one I held...and BAM!! snakebite. 
Real smart. 
That and the fact what he (and anyone else who devenoms snakes) is currently illegal is why I'm against them doing what they're doing. 

And to whoever said 'he can do what he likes they're HIS snakes' needs to grab their licence real quick and tear it up. If you don't know that there are RULES and LAWS that we as humans live by, then you need to either do some research on CRUELTY laws, or get rid of any animals you own. And don't ever have kids....'Let's give Tommy a piercing.....you want a prince albert son? No problem- lay down on that bench there, I'll grab the hammer and some duct tape to hold you down. Want a shot of whiskey? This is gonna hurt a little....'
I'm allowed to do that coz you're MY SON....

Yeah that'll fly in court.


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## cris (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: MY FIRST VENOMOUS SNAKE HANDLE!!!!*



AntaresiaLady said:


> That and the fact what he (and anyone else who devenoms snakes) is currently illegal is why I'm against them doing what they're doing.
> 
> And to whoever said 'he can do what he likes they're HIS snakes' needs to grab their licence real quick and tear it up. If you don't know that there are RULES and LAWS that we as humans live by, then you need to either do some research on CRUELTY laws, or get rid of any animals you own.



The law actually promotes voids in snake shows and public displays, thats why Ray has virtually been given a green light IMO. Voiding isnt illegal at all the on thing in question(legally) is the procedure and who caried it out.

The comment i made about ppl being able to void their own animals as being their own choice was in relation to ppl in general and not in relation specifically to Ray. Im not going to void any of my animals even if i get dangerous elapids futher down the track and im definately not tearing up my licence.
Also Ray(and others overseas) believes that voiding his snakes is better for them under the circumstances and personally think that is a valid point. There is no doubt in my mind that his snakes would be less stress than snakes used in other shows that i have seen.

As i said in that last thread voiding a snake is far less cruel than fishing with a hook. If done for a good reason i dont have a problem with either.

As for the children dieing from snake bite, i guess we will have to wait and see how many children in melbourne get killed by collets snakes :lol: Everyone knows that the average four year old can tell the differance between a python and an elapid :roll:


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## Tsidasa (Sep 15, 2006)

I understand that the guy was excited but does that mean we should say "good for you" and not tell him that it may actually be a bad thing?
If someone posted that they murdered two people last night or they tortured an animal and it was really kick ass, are you all gonna say "yay, i'm glad you had fun" instead of maybe telling what you think or contacting some authorities.
Let's be realistic, this is a forum, which means a place for open discussion, and sometimes people post things that we as individuals do not like to hear but that does not reduce the validity to what is said. It is important for us to talk and educate each other and post opinions and while we shouldn't feel admonished for doing so it is important that a spectrum of information is available. Just because a thread or topic has been covered before does not mean that all the people in this thread have read it or would have even THOUGHT of searching for it. I've said it before and i'll say it again if that is the case and people just want you to search for info, let's just have a normal searchable website and stop the interaction. As i am sure somewhere along the line most topics that are brought up have been talked about at some point before. I personally am here for the forum and the opinions and the entertainment.


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## Tsidasa (Sep 15, 2006)

> Everyone knows that the average four year old can tell the differance between a python and an elapid


My neice can =p


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