# Cross breeding laws



## Letzee (Nov 26, 2017)

Hi just wondering if people know the laws on cross breeding carpet pythons is SA. A friend bred what she thought was two murray darlings but i believe the male is a coastal. Advice/opinions


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## Houdini-The-Bluey (Nov 26, 2017)

Im not sure specifically with SA but from what i know in VIC, it is illegal to knowingly cross breed reptiles such as eastern blue tongue lizards with western blue tongues, cant tell specifics on snakes but im pretty sure the same goes for them.
But key word is knowingly, as your friend was under the impression that they were not different snakes, then they probably wont get in trouble.
Once again, dont know too much about SA law but im sure someone else will be able to give you a better answer.


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## Imported_tuatara (Nov 26, 2017)

i'm pretty sure all over aus it's strictly illegal to do it, tho such as here in vic it's a bit looser.


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## Foozil (Nov 26, 2017)

Just curious, but if it is illegal what happens to the eggs/hatchlings?


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## SpottedPythons (Nov 26, 2017)

Not illegal in NSW for certain crosses - in fact, they are on the species list. But you are in SA, so that's irrevelant. The owner might get fined and the eggs/hatchlings will probably not be allowed to breed.


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## Letzee (Nov 26, 2017)

Thanks guys might just call fauna permits to be sure at some point


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## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 26, 2017)

It can a bit of a grey area and laws are different from state to state. (And it also depends on how well the laws are policed more than the presence of the laws themselves. I believe cross breeding is outlawed in QLD but is undertaken on a regular basis so one can only assume the law is not well policed over there)
I can tell you in SA the laws are the clearest I have seen them and are enforced. There is NO cross breeding of species allowed. I do remember a couple of incidents where clutches were removed from the breeder and euthanised but I can;t for the life of me remember what the species involved was.... (One case involved a Bredlii that I can remember)

I know a man who might remember better than I @pinefamily


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## pinefamily (Nov 27, 2017)

Thanks, Pauls_Pythons.
The laws here in SA do say no cross breeding, however that is according to the species code list provided by DEWNR. So, looking at that, virtually all Morelia pythons are covered under the one "species", so it wouldn't "wrong" in the eyes of the law. Bredli and south western pythons are two that I know are separately listed, off the top of my head. These two then would be illegal to cross with anything else, according to DEWNR.


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## saximus (Nov 28, 2017)

I think Larks would have been in trouble a long time ago if all M. spilota were considered separate species.


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## Letzee (Dec 18, 2017)

So after a direct phone call to fauna permits unit, a woman has said to me that cross breeding of the same species code is legal. Specifically saying a coastal and an MD is a legal cross breed......although she also said she disaproves of it.


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## Yellowtail (Dec 18, 2017)

I may be a dinosaur but I just don't see the point in cross breeding even within the M. spilota sub species. It seems that some breeders do it just to see what they will get and produce a lot of worthless bastard animals.
There is so much more potential line breeding selected animals within a sub species including albinos, axanthics, stripes and unusual colour variations and these are worth more on the market. You can line breed to produce Jag like animals that are pure and without the Jag problems. It's got to the point when I will not buy an animal if I can't confirm it's pedigree so I do not risk contaminating my bloodlines.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Dec 18, 2017)

+1 YT.
No place in my collection for 'mixed' carpets as they now market them.


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## pinefamily (Dec 18, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> +1 YT.
> No place in my collection for 'mixed' carpets as they now market them.


You only have to look overseas to see how it can end up. It seems almost impossible to find a pure bred carpet.


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## Wally (Dec 18, 2017)

The gate was opened and all that was left was a dust trail pre 2010.


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 19, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> I may be a dinosaur but I just don't see the point in cross breeding even within the M. spilota sub species. It seems that some breeders do it just to see what they will get and produce a lot of worthless bastard animals.
> There is so much more potential line breeding selected animals within a sub species including albinos, axanthics, stripes and unusual colour variations and these are worth more on the market. You can line breed to produce Jag like animals that are pure and without the Jag problems. It's got to the point when I will not buy an animal if I can't confirm it's pedigree so I do not risk contaminating my bloodlines.



Worthless bastard animals?

These hybrids may not have the desired pedigree that so many purists covet, nor the pretty colours or patterns that a group of people have deemed pleasing to the eye, but they're still living creatures and, believe it or not, some people still love them. It's not the snake's fault that some human decided it would be cool to hybridize whatever species or subspecies.

I'm sure everyone will be grabbing their torches and pitchforks in regards to what I'm saying, but I really don't see why people get their knickers in a knot over hybrids, particularly when it comes to carpet pythons. Were we not just having a discussion that carpet pythons are all one and the same? I don't particularly believe it myself, especially when it comes to imbricata and bredli, but that's my opinion. I'm more of a lizard person anyway.

Would I ever keep hybrids? Certainly not. It's against our licence conditions in WA, and I doubt it would effect the hobby here for years to come, and even if it were allowed I still wouldn't keep them. They're not something that I personally like. I myself prefer animals with a known ancestry and looking as close to their wild counterparts as possible. I would not even breed the same species of two different known localities together. And I'm sure many members here are aware of my soft spot towards melanistic animals. Interestingly, it appears that many people believe the wild types to be ugly and boring. Even the so-called purists, whose self-appointed jobs appear to be preserving a snake's wild origins. Now why would that be? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all. People hybridize snakes to create a "pretty" snake. Are purists really that different when they line breed for brighter, cleaner, reduced patterned animals, albinos, hyper/hypomelanism, striped, spotted, pattern-less, or whatever else people are line breeding for. Double standards much? 

For the record, I don't particularly like the look of albinos, nor jags, or jag-like animals. But of course, that's my opinion. I admit that I'm fond of melanistic and axanthic animals. Does that make one better than the other? Of course not. It's only personal tastes. And that's what it all comes down to at the end of the day.


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## pinefamily (Dec 19, 2017)

I'm also a purist, and don't like the jags, and "crosses" either. I do think you might have argued against yourself though, Oshkii. Carpet pythons are the same (imbricate, bredli, and GTP's aside), and you say you're ok with breeding them; then you say you don't like to breed different locales. If the carpets are basically the same, then what we call jungles, coastals, etc. are just different locales surely?
Not having a go, because I'm on the same page. To me, there is nothing better than seeing pythons as they would be in the wild. Although I do still appreciate good line breeding too, especially when it incorporates better dispositions as well.


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 19, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> I'm also a purist, and don't like the jags, and "crosses" either. I do think you might have argued against yourself though, Oshkii. Carpet pythons are the same (imbricate, bredli, and GTP's aside), and you say you're ok with breeding them; then you say you don't like to breed different locales. If the carpets are basically the same, then what we call jungles, coastals, etc. are just different locales surely?
> Not having a go, because I'm on the same page. To me, there is nothing better than seeing pythons as they would be in the wild. Although I do still appreciate good line breeding too, especially when it incorporates better dispositions as well.



That's my point, pinefamily. By definition I suppose I would be called a purist. That would be correct when it comes to my lizard collection. The majority of them are wild caught and with some I know exactly where they come from. Like what rock or tree they came from. My snakes? Their origins are all unknown. While I have my suspicions that one's wild caught I have no idea where the others come from. Some I know who the parents were, others, they're a complete mystery. At least I could say that they're all imbricata if I'm to base that they lack the posterior suture of the nasal scale, and the fact that hybridization is not permitted in WA.

When it comes to the riddle that is carpet python I have no idea. I've only seen a few wild south-west carpet pythons here and there. My opinions are largely based from what I've read.

At the end of the day, I keep what I like. I don't froth at the mouth when I find someone else keeping or breeding something that I dislike or disagree with. It's their business. They have different tastes to me and that's all there is.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Dec 19, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Worthless bastard animals?



This is an extension of a statement that was made in a thread a while back Oshkii and I think it refers to the uncontrolled breeding of carpets by inexperienced people in the belief that they are all going to make their fortune from breeding snakes with this 'new and unique pairing'.

Everything that man is involved with turns to [email protected] eventually.
(Maybe I should re-phrase that as 'humans')


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## Scutellatus (Dec 19, 2017)

I think the hardest part is naming the new morphs (mongrels). Do you pick 'Sunglow Pepper Spotted' or 'Tangerine Sunshine Moonglow'. Hahaha.


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## Yellowtail (Dec 19, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Worthless bastard animals?
> 
> These hybrids may not have the desired pedigree that so many purists covet, nor the pretty colours or patterns that a group of people have deemed pleasing to the eye, but they're still living creatures and, believe it or not, some people still love them. It's not the snake's fault that some human decided it would be cool to hybridize whatever species or subspecies.
> 
> ...



Oshkii, we seem to have had this conversation before and maybe I could have worded my post a little differently, I do not mean that the poor animals are worthless and I love all animals, I was making the point that the results of mixed breeding are mostly of little commercial value and is against the expectations of a lot of the breeders to make money by producing the next cool designer reptile. Line breeding to enhance natural mutations of colour etc is different and the cross breed fans are generally not prepared to put in the time breeding multi-generational lines. Albinos are a matter of taste and I admit initially I did not like them but I became entranced by the subtle colours that are revealed in albino Darwins when there are no dominant dark pigments and I have been obsessed with developing these by selective breeding. I have no interest in albino olives as they do not have these colours.


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## GBWhite (Dec 19, 2017)

Personally, and I'm not having a go at anyone here, but I don't see any difference between breeding the morelia spilota group from different areas to line breeding animals. Isn't the intention of both to produce an animal that is aesthetically pleasing to the eye as a commercial product? It seems to me that the principal reason for line breeding is to produce an animal that has greater sales value and as such easy to dispose of. For example, you don't see many (if at all any) breeders of "pure" lines putting "Diamonds" on the market that display a noticeable lack of yellow pigment nor pale forms of "Bredli" or dull coloured "Jungles" despite the fact that these colour variations are quite common in the wild. It's still selective breeding either way. Line breeding and selective breeding are not confined to pythons either, it's common practice right across the board, from dragons, monitors, skinks, turtles to vens. From what I see, not many of the albino carpets available these days look like the original one collected in Darwin.

From how it looks to me, it's only people that are really into herps that seek out "pure" forms and even then they prefer an animal which is aesthetically pleasing to one that lacks visual appearance. The average Joe doesn't seem to mind what they look like because they just want to own a snake.

I'm pretty confident that other than Bredli & Imbricata I could actively seek out specific morphological variations of "Coastals" from the mid to far north coast of NSW and over a couple of generations produce snakes with the colouring and patterning consistent with those from way outside the area. In fact, when "Jungles" started to appear on the scene in the 1990's, I held a scientific license to collect any species of reptile in NSW. So, just to prove a point that I believed the eastern and northern spilota group were all the same snake, I deliberately line bred selected wild caught "coastals' from my immediate area and in 3 seasons (as I hypothesised but within a shorter period than I expected) produced a clutch where over half displayed markings and colours identical to the black and yellow banded "jungles" found in far north Qld which is a couple of thousand kilometres north of my place. I ended up giving them to a friend who went on to produce more and passed them on to one of his friends who ended up selling them as "jungle" pythons.


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## Yellowtail (Dec 19, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> Personally, and I'm not having a go at anyone here, but I don't see any difference between breeding the morelia spilota group from different areas to line breeding animals. Isn't the intention of both to produce an animal that is aesthetically pleasing to the eye as a commercial product? It seems to me that the principal reason for line breeding is to produce an animal that has greater sales value and as such easy to dispose of. For example, you don't see many (if at all) breeders of "pure" lines putting "Diamonds" on the market that display a noticeable lack of yellow pigment nor pale forms of "Bredli" or dull coloured "Jungles" despite the fact that these colour variations are quite common in the wild. It's still selective breeding either way. Line breeding and selective breeding are not confined to pythons either, it's common practice right across the board, from dragons, monitors, skinks, turtles to vens. From what I see, not many of the albino carpets available these days look like the original one collected in Darwin.
> 
> From how it looks to me, it's only people that are really into herps that seek out "pure" forms and even then they prefer an animal which is aesthetically pleasing to one that lacks visual appearance. The average Joe doesn't seem to mind what they look like because they just want to own a snake.
> 
> I'm pretty confident that other than Bredli & Imbricata I could actively seek out specific morphological variations of "Coastals" from the mid to far north coast of NSW and over a couple of generations produce snakes with the colouring and patterning consistent with those from way outside the area. In fact, when "Jungles" started to appear on the scene in the 1990's, I held a scientific license to collect any species of reptile in NSW. So, just to prove a point that I believed the eastern and northern spilota group were all the same snake, I deliberately line bred selected wild caught "coastals' from my immediate area and in 3 seasons (as I hypothesised but within a shorter period than I expected) produced a clutch where over half displayed markings and colours identical to the black and yellow banded "jungles" found in far north Qld which is a couple of thousand kilometres north of my place. I ended up giving them to a friend who went on to produce more and passed them on to one of his friends who ended up selling them as "jungle" pythons.


I know we've had this discussion before but my Julatten jungles are only 1.2M long while coastals from the same area can be 4M and you can breed as many pairs of coastals as you like, you won't produce 1.2M black and white jungles. Sure they share the same genetics but unknown environmental factors over millions of years have produced distinctly different animals.
I also mentioned Morelia oenpelliensis and how does it fit the one carpet model, it's range is adjacent to Darwin carpets.
I just think it's not a good idea to cross say Julatten jungles and MD carpets when you can breed beautiful animals from their distinct group and the market agrees, I get $500 for my Julattens while I've seen crosses advertised for $50. It's like crossing German Shepherds with Dalmatians to get a spotted shepherd and they are also genetically identical.


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## GBWhite (Dec 19, 2017)

In the wild "jungles" are known to reach an average length of 2.2 metres (similar to the average length of coastals of the same region) with females reaching 2.6 metres which again is consistent with coastals of the same area. Despite being capable of reaching 4 metres, carpets of that size aren't that common in the wild. Considering snakes do not stop growing and simply get bigger with age I find it hard to imagine that yours only reach a total body length of 1.2meters. If this was a recognised distinguishing and unique feature it would be included within a description of the species and despite how much I've searched i can't find anything relating to the fact. I'm not saying that they don't but I just find it hard to imagine that they get to that length and then stop growing.

Oenpelli Pythons don't "fit the one carpet model" as you put it. They are of the Morelia genus but are considered a separate species to spilota primarily due to the *unique* characteristic of enlarged symmetrically shaped fragmented parietal head shields compared to the small fragmented head shields consistent with the spilota group. Same as Morelia amethistina, viridis & carinata having unique characteristics (eg; amethistina - largehead shields, viridis - the menial groove under the chin is boarded by small granular scales, carinata - rogus dorsal scales) that distinguish them from other snakes of the same genus. Whereas, as far as I'm aware other than colouring and patterns (that differ even within specific habitat & micro habitat) there is nothing unique relating to each of the spilota group to classify them as a separate species.


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## Scutellatus (Dec 19, 2017)

I've got the simple solution. George sends me a couple of hatchies and so does Yellowtail. I will be the unbiased non-partial judge, grow them to size and report back.

Sorry couldn't help myself, I'll go back to my corner now.


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## Yellowtail (Dec 20, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> In the wild "jungles" are known to reach an average length of 2.2 metres (similar to the average length of coastals of the same region) with females reaching 2.6 metres which again is consistent with coastals of the same area. Despite being capable of reaching 4 metres, carpets of that size aren't that common in the wild. Considering snakes do not stop growing and simply get bigger with age I find it hard to imagine that yours only reach a total body length of 1.2meters. If this was a recognised distinguishing and unique feature it would be included within a description of the species and despite how much I've searched i can't find anything relating to the fact. I'm not saying that they don't but I just find it hard to imagine that they get to that length and then stop growing.
> 
> Oenpelli Pythons don't "fit the one carpet model" as you put it. They are of the Morelia genus but are considered a separate species to spilota primarily due to the *unique* characteristic of enlarged symmetrically shaped fragmented parietal head shields compared to the small fragmented head shields consistent with the spilota group. Same as Morelia amethistina, viridis & carinata having unique characteristics (eg; amethistina - largehead shields, viridis - the menial groove under the chin is boarded by small granular scales, carinata - rogus dorsal scales) that distinguish them from other snakes of the same genus. Whereas, as far as I'm aware other than colouring and patterns (that differ even within specific habitat & micro habitat) there is nothing unique relating to each of the spilota group to classify them as a separate species.



My julattens are from a line originating with wild caught snakes in the Julatten area that were line bred by Tremain Anderson, he used to be on APS but not recently. I have been breeding them for 3 generations, 4th next season and the largest one I have is a 13 yr old female at 1.4M and believe me as a breeder she is fed well. They are kept in large cages, develop the head size of a 2M carpet and eat the same size rats as my largest Darwins. Their eggs are larger than my Darwins and the hatchlings also. I have not kept or bred many other jungles but I understand their are distinct variations in size too with a larger type (as bred by Southern Cross) and others of similar size to my Julattens. I have observed that poor quality Julattens which loose their black and white contrast as they age and develop some brown grow larger possibly due to mixed heritage. Maybe there is a "dwarf" morph here that is black and white and has been line bred by Tremain and myself. The black and white imbricatas in WA seem to be the same size as other colour variations.


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## pinefamily (Dec 20, 2017)

And there are Cape York jungles that grow larger as well.
Our Gammon Ranges pythons, which aren't officially recognised as a "subspecies", only grow to about 1.5 metres. The Dajarra python is another smaller python.


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 20, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> This is an extension of a statement that was made in a thread a while back Oshkii and I think it refers to the uncontrolled breeding of carpets by inexperienced people in the belief that they are all going to make their fortune from breeding snakes with this 'new and unique pairing'.





Yellowtail said:


> Oshkii, we seem to have had this conversation before and maybe I could have worded my post a little differently, I do not mean that the poor animals are worthless and I love all animals, I was making the point that the results of mixed breeding are mostly of little commercial value and is against the expectations of a lot of the breeders to make money by producing the next cool designer reptile. Line breeding to enhance natural mutations of colour etc is different and the cross breed fans are generally not prepared to put in the time breeding multi-generational lines.



I agree with George on this one. Line breeding. Hybridizing. The paths may be different, but the end goal is the same. To create a pretty snake that often doesn't resemble its wild counterparts.

Here's a theoretical situation. What if I managed to breed my carpet pythons? It would be my first clutch, therefore I would be inexperienced. My snakes come from unknown origins. I have no proof where they come from, nor what locality they are. Perhaps they may not even be "pure" imbricata. Would they be mongrels or worthless bastard animals? I may be reading this the wrong way but it seems that most established breeders are generally against new keepers coming on to the breeding scene. Why are only a few select people allowed to breed to their heart's content and not others? If the new comers do produce animals with little to no value it's highly likely they'll learn the hard way - that the costs will far outweigh the income. They'll either stop breeding, or will become wise to the market. Or perhaps they'll breed regardless, because they're in it for the love of the animals and not for the money.


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## Yellowtail (Dec 20, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> I agree with George on this one. Line breeding. Hybridizing. The paths may be different, but the end goal is the same. To create a pretty snake that often doesn't resemble its wild counterparts.
> 
> Here's a theoretical situation. What if I managed to breed my carpet pythons? It would be my first clutch, therefore I would be inexperienced. My snakes come from unknown origins. I have no proof where they come from, nor what locality they are. Perhaps they may not even be "pure" imbricata. Would they be mongrels or worthless bastard animals? I may be reading this the wrong way but it seems that most established breeders are generally against new keepers coming on to the breeding scene. Why are only a few select people allowed to breed to their heart's content and not others? If the new comers do produce animals with little to no value it's highly likely they'll learn the hard way - that the costs will far outweigh the income. They'll either stop breeding, or will become wise to the market. Or perhaps they'll breed regardless, because they're in it for the love of the animals and not for the money.


Oshkii, I was referring to serious breeders deliberately crossing different sub-species just to see if they can fluke some outstanding new morph without regard to the fate of any unwanted offspring. The same attitude with breeding Jags produces lots of animals with serious neuro that if they are lucky end up in the freezer. I have some Imbricata so should I mate them with my Julattens to produce better black and white? Personally I think some of the regional variations in Imbricata are wonderful and are better left that way.


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 21, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> Oshkii, I was referring to serious breeders deliberately crossing different sub-species just to see if they can fluke some outstanding new morph without regard to the fate of any unwanted offspring. The same attitude with breeding Jags produces lots of animals with serious neuro that if they are lucky end up in the freezer. I have some Imbricata so should I mate them with my Julattens to produce better black and white? Personally I think some of the regional variations in Imbricata are wonderful and are better left that way.



What you breed is your decision, Yellowtail. People will generally do what they want, regardless of other's opinions. 

I didn't think serious breeders would deliberately hybridize snakes if there was a possibility of the offspring not selling. I don't really follow the happenings of Eastern states python breeders to be honest. Not much point when you live in WA. I'll admit I've seen some mixed carpets that I would consider nice, and then there's some that I personally find to be very ugly. Even if I could keep mixed carpets I wouldn't. They're not something I'm interested in. Although from what I can tell, they appear to be fairly popular. 

Does breeding different subspecies together result with health issues?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Dec 21, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Does breeding different subspecies together result with health issues?



Speaking from a turtle background, no... It just ruins the genetic integrity of the individual species' involved.

Anything and everything in the _Emydura_ complex can be crossbred... such as Brisbane river turtles, Clarence river turtles, Macleay river turtles, Hunter river turtles, Murray river turtles, Krefft's river turtles, Jardine river turtles, Cooper creek turtles, Fraser Island short-necks, Sydney Basin turtles, North-western red-faced turtle, Worrell's turtle, Northern yellow-faced turtle AND the Victoria River turtle... ALL of these species can successfully breed together and produce hybrid, fertile mongrel offspring which have no genetic integrity whatsoever. Obviously many of these species are separated geographically by hundreds or thousands of kilometres but thanks to the introduction of many turtles into systems far outside their natural range (especially Murrays, due to unwanted pet dumping) and there are people that keep many _Emydura_ from different systems in captivity together and breed baby mongrel turtles for the pet trade... The most common crosses in the pet trade are Murrays X Krefft's - Murrays X Brisbane river - Murrays X Macleays (all are completely worthless and the clutches should be frozen and not allowed to hatch.) 

I also know of "Tainted Painted's" in NSW that are nothing more than Jardine River X Krefft's - Jardine river X Northern red-faced - Jardine river X Worrell's which come out a washed out orange colour or even yellow instead of the brilliant vibrant red that pure Painted's are supposed to be.. Unfortunately this dilution of genetics can never be reversed. 

The Sydney basin short-neck is basically a man-made species... there were no short-necked _Emydura_ originally native to the Sydney area. It's just a "bitza species" that has a bit of everything in it thanks to imported _Emydura_ from other parts of NSW and interstate that were all dumped together in the Sydney Basin area back in the 50's and 60's.

Basically, as a serious turtle enthusiast, you wouldn't buy anything in the _Emydura_ complex from a pet store anywhere... You would have to find a reputable breeder and in this industry, they are few and far between. 
I had a breeding pair of pure Macleay River turtles, Australia's smallest _Emydura _on the east coast but have recently moved on from _Emydura_ all together and am now focusing on Australia's critically endangered Manning River turtle - _Flaviemys purvisi.
_
I am a purist, I don't know or understand why anyone would intentionally crossbreed any reptile, snake or turtle, etc... that's just my opinion... people say with snakes, it can produce awesome colouration/patterns etc... OK I get that... doesn't have the same outcome with turtles, it has the opposite effect...


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## MANNING (Dec 21, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> ..and am now focusing on Australia's critically endangered Manning River turtle - _Flaviemys purvisi._...


Thats a turtle there should be more of.
You got the stamp of approval there bud✔


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Dec 22, 2017)

MANNING said:


> Thats a turtle there should be more of.
> You got the stamp of approval there bud✔


Haha Yeah, they really are something special and arguably Australia's most attractive turtle.




[doublepost=1513884524,1513884030][/doublepost]My boy doing his bit to save his species.


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## GBWhite (Dec 27, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> My julattens are from a line originating with wild caught snakes in the Julatten area that were line bred by Tremain Anderson, he used to be on APS but not recently. I have been breeding them for 3 generations, 4th next season and the largest one I have is a 13 yr old female at 1.4M and believe me as a breeder she is fed well. They are kept in large cages, develop the head size of a 2M carpet and eat the same size rats as my largest Darwins. Their eggs are larger than my Darwins and the hatchlings also. I have not kept or bred many other jungles but I understand their are distinct variations in size too with a larger type (as bred by Southern Cross) and others of similar size to my Julattens. I have observed that poor quality Julattens which loose their black and white contrast as they age and develop some brown grow larger possibly due to mixed heritage. Maybe there is a "dwarf" morph here that is black and white and has been line bred by Tremain and myself. The black and white imbricatas in WA seem to be the same size as other colour variations.



Hi Yellowtail,

Just had an interesting discussion with a mate who's down here from Qld who has a long background in herps and is the owner of a fauna spotting company who and spends a lot of time herping around the Mossman/Julatten area of Qld and west/sth west of there right down to the SA border. He was telling me that he has come across plenty of wild, distinct black and white "Julattens" that are well over 2 metres and that in fact he came across one earlier this year that was well over 3 metres. He was saying that from the number he's encountered over the years that he doesn't believe there is a naturally occuring dwarf form and was also telling me that he knows Tremain and, to put it politely, said that he doesn't put a lot of faith in what he tells anyone.



pinefamily said:


> And there are Cape York jungles that grow larger as well.
> Our Gammon Ranges pythons, which aren't officially recognised as a "subspecies", only grow to about 1.5 metres. The Dajarra python is another smaller python.



Hi PF,

The same guy that I mentioned above was also telling me that he's also seen plenty of wild "Djarra's" that exceed well over 2 metres He was also saying that where the landscape changes into the black soil country that you get M spilota that look like an "intergrade" between "MD's" and "Coastals" and that the spilota in the Cape can look like anything from "Coastals" to "Darwin's".


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## Waterrat (Dec 27, 2017)

George, I have been roaming the Julatten area since 1972 and I have see plenty of carpets there and in the adjacent areas. The true B&W carpets are smaller compared to other races BUT there is a mix of different morphs there too. E.g. on Mt. Lewis, which is just up from Julatten you will find large carpets (in the rainforest) that are not B&W at all and the same goes for the ecotone toward Mt. Molloy. Btw, large wild B&W carpets don't look spectacular, nothing like the juveniles and semi-adults. In my opinion, if someone is talking about large "Julatten carpets" they are either not from the core locality or they're captive bred - which is different cattle of fish altogether. 
Cheers
Michael


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## GBWhite (Dec 27, 2017)

Thanks for the feedback Michael. I did question him regarding the location and he said it was in the core locality of Julatten. He also said that it was the most impressive large one he'd seen and that he's pretty sure he has a photo of it somewhere and will try and dig it up send it to me if he can find it. If he does I'll post it here. Not that I doubt your opinion it's just that I just don't see how there could be a definite and distinct race when other morphs live sympatrically. Could it be possible that people don't identify the larger ones as Julatten because they don't look as spectacular as the young ones as they age?
Cheers,
George


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## Waterrat (Dec 27, 2017)

I think you're on the money there George. If it's not clear B&W it's not a Julatten (to many people). Like always there are exceptions, I have see one or two large B&W ones just like I have seen ordinary looking semi-adults in the sale area. 
Another thing is - what is the Julatten area? It's not really define by any geographical or vegetation boundaries. Julatten is 4 houses opposite to what used to be the school. Long are the days when the railway line used to go right through.


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## Yellowtail (Dec 27, 2017)

Michael, you are more or less confirming my observations that my Julattens are an unusual morph that have a maximum size of 1.5m, have good black and white contrast and the characteristics can be line bred, all 2nd and 3rd generation animals I have kept are of similar size. It is interesting that a core population of the smaller B&W's seem to survive despite being surrounded by larger carpets. Photo enclosed is a 13 yr old female approx 1.4m - 1.5m, she is going a bit grey but does not have any brown or cream colouration, the base of that tub is 27 x 27.


[doublepost=1514349129,1514348265][/doublepost]


GBWhite said:


> Hi Yellowtail,
> 
> Just had an interesting discussion with a mate who's down here from Qld who has a long background in herps and is the owner of a fauna spotting company who and spends a lot of time herping around the Mossman/Julatten area of Qld and west/sth west of there right down to the SA border. He was telling me that he has come across plenty of wild, distinct black and white "Julattens" that are well over 2 metres and that in fact he came across one earlier this year that was well over 3 metres. He was saying that from the number he's encountered over the years that he doesn't believe there is a naturally occuring dwarf form and was also telling me that he knows Tremain and, to put it politely, said that he doesn't put a lot of faith in what he tells anyone.
> 
> ...


George, I have not personally explored the area the area and we all know about Tremain but I can only go on my experience with my Julattens that I have kept pure and line bred from Tremain's animals. I now have a lot of them, the 2nd generation are no larger than the originals and the 3rd generation seem to have about the same growth for their age. They certainly appear to be a dwarf, for want of a better word, morph and I have no doubt that there are "intergrade" animals in the area which explains why there are a lot of poor quality "Julattens" that loose their contrast and go brown with age. It is easy to dismiss these niche locality morphs but I feel it is worth retaining their unique characteristics.
I advertise mine as "probably the best B&W Julattens in Aust" and no one has ever challenged me on that.


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## Waterrat (Dec 27, 2017)

These are typical wild Julatten carpets, that what you see on the average. I think to get more white and more black into them is achievable by line breeding but you seldom see wild ones with more contrasting B&W.


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## Yellowtail (Dec 31, 2017)

Just cleaned some cages and took the opportunity to check the size of a couple.
The well fed Julatten male in the tub is around 12 yrs old (I was told it was 3 yrs old in 2008) and approx 1.5m.
A 4 yr old albino Darwin in the same tub is approx 2.5m and still growing and an average 2yr old albino Darwin.


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## auntyjam (Jan 4, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Worrell's


Hi Aussiepride83...what are 'Worrell's' in the context u've written, please?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 4, 2018)

auntyjam said:


> Hi Aussiepride83...what are 'Worrell's' in the context u've written, please?


Worrell's turtle - _Emydura worrelli _ is a species of short-necked turtle originally described from the McArthur River which empties into the Gulf of Carpentaria near Borroloola in the Northern Territory. Their taxonomic status is debatable, it has not yet been determined whether it is a full species or a subspecies of the Jardine River turtle - _Emydura subglobosa subglobosa, _from the Jardine River at the top of Cape York Peninsula and along the south coast of New Guinea. However, both belonging to the _Emydura_ complex, can breed together freely if kept together in captivity resulting in fertile offspring with tainted genetics. In the wild, their distributions do not overlap.


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## auntyjam (Jan 4, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Worrell's turtle - _Emydura worrelli _ is a species of short-necked turtle originally described from the McArthur River which empties into the Gulf of Carpentaria near Borroloola in the Northern Territory. Their taxonomic status is debatable, it has not yet been determined whether it is a full species or a subspecies of the Jardine River turtle - _Emydura subglobosa subglobosa, _from the Jardine River at the top of Cape York Peninsula and along the south coast of New Guinea. However, both belonging to the _Emydura_ complex, can breed together freely if kept together in captivity resulting in fertile offspring with tainted genetics. In the wild, their distributions do not overlap.


Thanks for your quick & detailed reply...my interest was in the name 'worrell'...as a child we often visited Eric Worrell's reptile farm near gosford...my brother was a born snake catcher|handler from the 60s to the 80s when he died from a massive heart attack @ the age of 35...as a young boy|teenager he would follow 'uncle' Eric around for hours when we wld visit...it looks like the worrell in ur article is geographical...I love the stories of our fam's herpetological shenanigans & hope u won't mind my sharing one every now & then...thanx for adding me to the group.


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## cement (Jan 6, 2018)

Ahh the old debate still flows but along a different pathway now.
Most of the "purists" veiws came about when some numbnut decided he would smuggle jags into the country, concoct a ridiculous story that they just randomly hatched from a clutch of his own and try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Yes, he got away with it, and now happily retires on his income from what many people believe, has stuffed the hobby in this country. We knew it would happen, and I've had conversations with people who bought into his animals, only to end up with a sick feeling in their stomachs after they witnessed the neuro in full flight and (considering the bio-security of our native animals was also pushed aside so these mongrels could make big money selling these retarded mutants) they decided to get away from the jags. Which probably, may be in part, nothing more then damage control. 
Its not even the fact that a crossed subspecies is good looking or not, it's more the problem that many first time snake keepers who literally know absolutely nothing about nor even seen a wild snake, thought that breeding diamonds with jungle or bredli with gammon, was perfectly normal and they would produce great looking animals and make a fortune. 
People who have been in the game since before jags, were split between money and ethics. But the outcome was always obvious, especially when other countries documentation of their hobby was available and even they were telling us quite openly their thoughts on us crossing our sub species.
Obviously, now, our hobby has been royally f'd over and many who were only in it for the " excitement" of keeping a snake have now realised that their really only another animal and there isn't that associated mystique that used to go along with them.
I'm sorry but, line bred 4th gen julattens will not be much like their wild ancestors at all, that is the narrowing of the gene pool that creates the nice look.
I will listen to the people who have their core focus as ecologists, over hobby breeders, regarding true to form, any day over hobbyists. Many of us are both, but unless you spend time in the bush dealing with dozens if not hundreds of wild snakes in a particular region, and not just listening to what the guy you bought your snakes from story, you can only be guessing or assuming whats really out there.
No offence intended to anyone here, just an opinion. My work has shown me that pretty much every pattern available in "pure snakes" in the hobby, has or would have occurred at some time in the wild anyway.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

I guess you're just a rung or two above most of us cement.

My opinions on crossbreeding/jags are known on here. But I don't feel the need to belittle those that are here because they want to participate in the hobby.

Your post smacks of arrogance.


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## Neil j (Jan 6, 2018)

.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 6, 2018)

cement said:


> Ahh the old debate still flows but along a different pathway now.
> Most of the "purists" veiws came about when some numbnut decided he would smuggle jags into the country, concoct a ridiculous story that they just randomly hatched from a clutch of his own and try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Yes, he got away with it, and now happily retires on his income from what many people believe, has stuffed the hobby in this country. We knew it would happen, and I've had conversations with people who bought into his animals, only to end up with a sick feeling in their stomachs after they witnessed the neuro in full flight and (considering the bio-security of our native animals was also pushed aside so these mongrels could make big money selling these retarded mutants) they decided to get away from the jags. Which probably, may be in part, nothing more then damage control.
> Its not even the fact that a crossed subspecies is good looking or not, it's more the problem that many first time snake keepers who literally know absolutely nothing about nor even seen a wild snake, thought that breeding diamonds with jungle or bredli with gammon, was perfectly normal and they would produce great looking animals and make a fortune.
> People who have been in the game since before jags, were split between money and ethics. But the outcome was always obvious, especially when other countries documentation of their hobby was available and even they were telling us quite openly their thoughts on us crossing our sub species.
> ...


Hmm, I was going to ignore this but Cement you are not the only one that appreciates the natural beauty of wild reptiles.
I started collecting and studying them in the 1950's in the bush around the then small city of Perth, one thing I did notice very early was that wild populations in distinct districts had their own unique appearance, I found for example populations of Bob Tails (Shinglebacks) in the Northern Suburbs that had the same colours and patterns as the so called "Goldfields" type and Dugites from almost white to almost black and similarly Tiger snakes and Death Adders can have distinct colours in different localities. Colours of rocks and vegetation and local climate are involved but I remember discussions with Harry Butler at the time about reptiles having large clutches of young that mostly stay in a small area and become inbred producing over time unique colour types. This is why we have "Gosford Diamonds" and "Julatten Jungles" and "Hypo Darwins".
I do not see anything wrong with selective breeding to enhance these natural variations and do not see how this can be compared with crossing Jungles with Diamonds to just "see what you get"
I never got on the Jag bandwagon and cannot understand how anyone can intentionally breed animals that are genetically defective to the extent that a significant percentage have to be put in the freezer, I could never do that. Clearly most in the hobby are now awake to Jag problems and this is reflected in the low prices they bring. Unfortunately it is inevitable that escaped or discarded Jags will contaminate the wild Carpet population.
I am not judging those that persist with Jags but I have refused to sell my Julatten hatchlings to more than a few planning to cross them with Jags. Meanwhile I still spend many hours each week off track bushwalking to study the local reptiles.


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## cement (Jan 7, 2018)

Who have I belittled wally? Smugglers who risk our native wildlife and tell newbies bullshit to sell their animals? 
Your post smacks of insecurity. I really wouldn't have a clue what you write in your posts, I don't follow anyone here, so i am completely unaware of your opinions.

You are correct YT, its obvious from your posts that you also appreciate our native environment and its wildlife, i'm not particularly trying to offend anyone. The horse bolted years ago. You mention the inevitable entry of jags and their sibs into the wild pops. Just here on the central coast I have, and other relocators I know also have, been pulling out pythons that we have absolutely no idea what their heritage is for the last few years now. I had "conversations" with jag breeders who took offence at my opinions, telling me that jags would never survive in the wild therefore they are not a threat..... but also in the same breath they tell the newbies and everyone else that these animals have very, very little to NO issues and are no different to any other normal healthy python. 
Its bad enough pulling out escaped pets that are covered in mite.
I have nothing against line breeding, I do it myself and have been for the last 12 years, like I mentioned, it narrows the genetic diversity and exposes different patterns that are great looking, thats what line breeding does. I am of the opinion that line breeding your julattens, or my diamonds or someone else's bredli etc,etc doesn't necessarily produce anything that probably hasn't naturally occurred anyway, which is in line with exactly what you and Butler were discussing.
I will try to show you what I mean, if I can get a photo of a wild diamond up on here to explain. trust me, these photos will blow away 90% of hobbyists, but the point i'm trying to make is that line breeding pure animals is ok in my opinion.
It is entirely practical to breed a clutch or two each year to cover the expense of maintaining a large collection, I certainly don't have a problem with that. 
Surely though, with your background you would try to preserve our native wildlife where possible, because generally, If a person spends time in the bush because they have a natural instinct to do that, then usually they form a love for our native environment. Which makes it hard for me to understand that so called uni grad biologists can feel its ok to bring in not only exotic animals, but animals that are carrying and KNOWN to carry health issues. Whether the ancestral background is Aussie or not.

We NEED a healthy population of wild snakes, for our own survival. But not many people understand why, or even care for that matter, especially if it means easy money. 

Once again, no offence intended, though if your a jag breeder, or a smuggler, then I couldn't give a rats what you think.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 7, 2018)

I breed one clutch of Julattens each year when I could breed 10, I refuse to sell them cheap and usually have advance orders for half of them, I keep 2 or 3 for future breeding. I have become a bit obsessive with my albino Darwins and have several breeding projects going, some long term involving naturals, to develop different colours and fluro but they are all pure bred Darwins. I need to sell a lot of these as I can only keep so many.

On the subject of wild reptiles there is one issue that really annoys me and I have raised it in this forum before, that is the public attitude to killing snakes. We have come a long way from the 1950's when "The only good snake was a dead one" but there is a serious lack of education on this. Most of my bush walking is way off track and you don't see anyone but I also walk local National Park tracks and I regularly encounter people, sometimes tourists and often recently arrived immigrants and that is good but you see them carrying big sticks and I'm not talking about walking aids. I usually ask why and always get the answer it's for protection from our dangerous snakes. Some of these people are from countries where there are few reptiles and no doubt they have seen on tv etc how we have the worlds most venomous snakes but many are from Asia, the Middle East and Africa and they really expect a fierce Eastern Brown Taipan Mamba Death Adder to leap out of the bush and chase them. I try as nicely as possible to educate them that our reptiles are mostly shy creatures that will avoid them and that it is illegal to harm any Australian reptiles with a big fine. Sometimes I get a strong response that it is their right to protect their children and they will kill any snake they see, this has escalated a couple of times to the point where I have unfortunately told them where I will be putting their stick if I see them attacking a snake. I personally know of 2 cases where beautiful Diamond pythons that had regularly basked near popular tracks and picnic grounds in the Bobbin Head area were bashed to death by uneducated people "protecting their children", the same children are encouraged to throw rocks at birds and Water dragons, I also found the remains of an unfortunate Death Adder on a track in that same area.
My point here is what efforts are made to educate new arrivals, be they tourists, immigrants, on work visas etc and is there any education in our schools regarding respecting our native animals? Has anyone anywhere been prosecuted for killing a snake? The media has a responsibility here, when did you hear a snake story that pointed out the protected status of the animal, you hear nuts on talk back radio boasting about "Killing a Death adder" and nothing is said - I would put them in jail with some big angry men who might beat them. Usually this type of post gets the response that farmers are fixed in their attitudes and have to protect their animals, dogs etc but I am talking about our National Parks, educating kids, immigrants, tourists.


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