# Striped Diamond holdbacks



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

A couple of photo's of some striped Diamonds a friend bred last year. These are his holdbacks, the 2 I have were just partially striped so we are hoping it's genetic and that future generations will produce full stripes.


----------



## salebrosus (Nov 22, 2007)

LOL, they are really nice animals boa,

Simone.


----------



## Morelia_Hunter (Nov 22, 2007)

Did the incubator play up half way through the incubation???? They are awesome nonetheless.


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

LOL. No the incubation was just fine. They are beautiful looking snakes.


----------



## JungleRob (Nov 22, 2007)

Nice Ash, looks pretty good!

Be good to see a full length photo.


----------



## bigguy (Nov 22, 2007)

Ash they look alot like the weird Diamonds that Daniel Gilbertson bred last season.


----------



## deebo (Nov 22, 2007)

nice, i want one.......


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

Yes they do don't they ?



bigguy said:


> Ash they look alot like the weird Diamonds that Daniel Gilbertson bred last season.


----------



## steve6610 (Nov 22, 2007)

not into diamonds much, but i'm thinking for one that looks like that, i could make some room for...........

very nice...................


----------



## Chris1 (Nov 22, 2007)

that looks awesome!!


----------



## $NaKe PiMp (Nov 22, 2007)

this is what diamond/coastels intergrades can turn out like


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2007)

These are the infamous Dan Gilbertson "Smashed Crab" line


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

PiMp said:


> this is what diamond/coastels intergrades can turn out like




If you can find a pair of natural intergrades identical to the quality of the animals posted i'll give you $3k for the pair.........

So Boa, lets talk about your pair.........


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

I guess you could get something similar with intergrades but it's far less common in pure Diamonds.
Den, sorry you can twist my arm as much as you like 



 PiMp said:


> this is what diamond/coastels intergrades can turn out like


----------



## slacker (Nov 22, 2007)

Well there you have it, diamonds that aren't overly ugly!


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Nov 22, 2007)

stunning colours and pattern ,
love them


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

'Well there you have it, diamonds that aren't overly ugly! '


It had to happen sooner or later


----------



## RevDaniel (Nov 22, 2007)

great looking reptiles Boa.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 22, 2007)

They look awesome Boa! Far far nicer than the one at snake ranch IMO. Can't wait till you start producing these!


----------



## slacker (Nov 22, 2007)

boa said:


> 'Well there you have it, diamonds that aren't overly ugly! '
> 
> 
> It had to happen sooner or later



lol, maybe. The strange thing is, I really don't like the look of striped coastals or jungles usually, and diamonds really aren't up on my list, so for me to appreciate a striped diamond is quite surprising


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks everyone and I am thanking you for the breeder as well. I hope in a season or two we can bothe be producing a few nice full stripes.
Here's another from the same clutch to show the variation.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 22, 2007)

-aspidites- said:


> lol, maybe. The strange thing is, I really don't like the look of striped coastals or jungles usually, and diamonds really aren't up on my list, so for me to appreciate a striped diamond is quite surprising



I'll 2nd that. The only stripes i have liked in any species so far has been Zobo's striped coastals, just because of how clean the stripe is, and the tiger stripes in the US. But i like what i am seeing atm in these fellas.


----------



## cockney red (Nov 22, 2007)

*Only animal i like with stripes is a tiger. Does nowt for me.:|*


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

That's fair enough, no animal appeals to everyone.


----------



## zulu (Nov 22, 2007)

*re Striped*

LOL boa,they look like hundred per centres those fellas! :lol:


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

You took longer than expected


----------



## hornet (Nov 22, 2007)

they are amazing


----------



## cockney red (Nov 22, 2007)

*Zulu. Do i detect a touch of irony in that post.*


----------



## GSXR_Boy (Nov 22, 2007)

Very nice!


----------



## Renagade (Nov 22, 2007)

cool, that first one looks like it has some of those 'coffs harbour' intergrade in it. i love them


----------



## zulu (Nov 22, 2007)

*re Stiped*



cockney red said:


> *Zulu. Do i detect a touch of irony in that post.*


Yeh well,the average person can see that they are hybrids its just there to see.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2007)

That's what makes the average person average, those of us in the know, know that they are pure and think it's a great laugh when all the experts argue that they aren't


----------



## Renagade (Nov 22, 2007)

cool, i might start calling my lil intergrade a diamond... and any one who disagrees AVERAGE ha hah aha. i'm with you zulu. ha ha it's still funny.


----------



## zulu (Nov 22, 2007)

*re Striped*

yeh,look nothing like the hundreds ive caught over the years,more like something from out kempsey dorrigo way .


----------



## zulu (Nov 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



Renagade said:


> cool, i might start calling my lil intergrade a diamond... and any one who disagrees AVERAGE ha hah aha. i'm with you zulu. ha ha it's still funny.



LOL yeh thats the way it goes renegade :lol:


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2007)

zulu said:


> yeh,look nothing like the hundreds ive caught over the years,more like something from out kempsey dorrigo way .


 

Hey mate,

The other day I caught three Eastern Browns in one morning. I catch them quite regularly, and have found them in 4 different states (QLD, NSW, Vic and SA). I'd say that I have caught around 500, which is a pretty conservative number. I have seen many different colourations, all shades of brown, orange, red, black and grey, some with bands, some with spots and some with patternless ventrals. I've seen them less than 20cm long and over 230cm long. But the other day, for the very first time, I found one that was yellow. Not a yellowish brown, but yellow like the Simpsons. Yellow like this smiley face infact 

Snakes are variable, especially Morelia. Just because something doesn't fit into the mould, doesn't mean it's not pure. And just because something DOES fit the mould, doesn't mean it's pure! All we can go off is the credibility of the breeder, and I doubt anybody here is game enough to discredit somebody like Dan. They are pure Gosford form Diamond Pythons, they were incubated normally, and half hatched striped, half hatched normal (but very pretty).


----------



## pugsly (Nov 22, 2007)

Nice intergrades mate! haha


So how would you define a Diamond python then Jonno, how would you define an Intergrade? Whats the difference.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2007)

Are we talking with regards to captive bred reptiles, or wild caught animals?


----------



## Renagade (Nov 22, 2007)

ha ha ha aahha!!!


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2007)

So what would you ID these as?


----------



## Frozenmouse (Nov 22, 2007)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Did the incubator play up half way through the incubation???? They are awesome nonetheless.


 can incubation temps have an effect on coloration?


----------



## cement (Nov 22, 2007)

Got any photos of it all laid out??


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

Waist of time Jonno, they'll jsut say they aren't the real parents.

I copped the same rant with our "woma cross BHPs" (Golds). Cause no-one had seen them in the wild they must be crosses even though they are only second generation, locale specific animals. Same as the diamonds i'm sure.....

Enjoy


----------



## Troy K. (Nov 22, 2007)

I think I'm going to stay out of this disagrement and stick to sucking up to Ash for a pair of hatchies when he gets these snakes up and breeding. Don't forget to put me on the list Ash.


----------



## Troy K. (Nov 22, 2007)

Somewhere above Dens name mate!!!!!!!!


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

Troy K. said:


> I think I'm going to stay out of this disagrement and stick to sucking up to Ash for a pair of hatchies when he gets these snakes up and breeding. Don't forget to put me on the list Ash.



All good smithy, we're already on it!........

Oh yeah, by the way i ordered some Diamonds


----------



## Troy K. (Nov 22, 2007)

You ordered them, so does that mean that you are paying for them????????


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2007)

cement said:


> Got any photos of it all laid out??


 

Nope, she is heavily gravid at the moment as you can see, but she is a pretty standard Diamond with small rossettes.


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

HAHA. Yeah, with your bank account details.....

What was that internet banking password again 1...........4........?


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks for all the comments guys, the consensus appears to be that they are beautiful snakes which indeed they are. 
Troy, how about if I put your name equal with Dens ? I hate arguments 



Troy K. said:


> I think I'm going to stay out of this disagrement and stick to sucking up to Ash for a pair of hatchies when he gets these snakes up and breeding. Don't forget to put me on the list Ash.


----------



## Troy K. (Nov 22, 2007)

No worries Ash, congrates on the snakes mate. They are stunning.


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks Troy, I should say that those particular snakes aren't mine but I have siblings. 
As far as the list goes, unmarked notes in a plain brown envelope works for me.


----------



## Brettix (Nov 22, 2007)

HeY Jonno,are they really the parents of those striped ones ?

If so i want one !


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

The word is that these boy's were bred from normal locale specific parents. I've seen a heap of people in my time but i've never seen anything like them before. As they live on the outskirts of chimp teritory i'm convinced they're monkey intergrades. 







No matter what people that know them say since i've never seen these sort of people bred out of PURE humans i'm convinced they're intergrades. Maybe hybrids.......We all know how much some villiages LOVE their monkeys.....


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

That kid looks just like his mother........I think........which one is his mother ?


----------



## Brettix (Nov 22, 2007)

lol,i seen a thing on austar about them.and thats their young brother not affected.:lol:


----------



## Troy K. (Nov 22, 2007)

She's the one wearing the blue dress in the background


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

Troy K. said:


> She's the one wearing the blue dress in the background



HAHA, roll her in flour and, well, you know the rest......

We're both going to get another infraction soon........


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

The mother was obviously sleeping around with humans.



Brettix said:


> lol,i seen a thing on austar about them.and thats their young brother not affected.:lol:


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

HAHA, when in rome as they say.......


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

Talking of animals;

Now, if i had a rooster, and you had a donkey, and your donkey ate my roosters two feet what would you have???


----------



## Retic (Nov 22, 2007)

Hang on , I know this one, no wait really. Who am I kidding I have no idea.


----------



## Rediah (Nov 22, 2007)

A rooster with no feet...?????


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

deleted


----------



## Sanchez (Nov 22, 2007)




----------



## Rediah (Nov 22, 2007)

:shock:

Well atleast my answer was more child friendly! :lol:


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

deleted


----------



## larks (Nov 23, 2007)

Very nice striped diamonds, hope they turn out to be genetic for you and the breeder.


----------



## stencorp69 (Nov 23, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Nice intergrades mate! haha
> 
> 
> So how would you define a Diamond python then Jonno, how would you define an Intergrade? Whats the difference.


 
How would define pure? It moronic to argue purity points, if you like them great if not great again - there is plenty of variation in spilota. An intergrade is no more or less pure than a imbricata given that they are all spilota. If you talk about pure then you need to include a location and even then you'll not be able to conclude it's "pure" due to genetic diversity within the location due to environmental adaptation and natural genetic mutation 

Sten


----------



## ozianimals (Nov 23, 2007)

Nice stripies mate when you get some hatchies put me on the list I'll take at least a pair......

Nice diamonds Jonno......


----------



## pugsly (Nov 23, 2007)

Not what I asked Jonno, clearly they are Diamonds, and some very nice ones, but I asked how you would describe a Diamond, and how you would describe an Intergrade. Now the very reason you didn't want to answer that is obviously because your description of an intergrade would most likely see Boa's animals fit it.

I have had many a chat with Boa about these animals, he knows my thoughts and its all good.

But I AM interested to know your thoughts, how can we define a Diamond as per the literature on them, and then say no, they can look like anything? Why define them at all, have a whole complex from North Melbourne to Coffs if you want to fit Boa's into it.

The snakes do not have the appearance of a Diamond, yes I know the heritage, fine, and they are damn nice animals sure. But, I call a Diamond a Diamond, on what I have read, found etc. I have my own opinions of what a Diamond looks like (often quite vocal ones) and I want to hear yours.

As noted Sten, we can't conclude its pure at all. I have no doubt that there was some form of intergrade line in the blood somewhere..


----------



## zulu (Nov 23, 2007)

*re Striped*

Ime working on diamonded carpets :lol:


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 23, 2007)

Those are certainly pushing the boundries of what's a diamond or not and if they are pure it would be interesting to see if the parents have thrown this type before or not and even if the parents are said to be pure Gosford animals which would have to be traced back thoroughly to wild caught animals from an exaact locality in Gosford.

To me striping could occur in any species as it does such as it has here and with bredli 2 species which aren't very common to have stripes at all so i'm hoping for the breeders etc i's a genetic mutation which can happen with all animals but all the indicators of the animals boa posted are really pushing those boundries and indicators of being pure such as the very large or conjoined rosettes or saddles and stripes are a bit more than most would still accept as being pure and as said unless you 100% know their ancestory it's all a guess???

To me they scream intergrades not crosses and at a guess without knowing the ancestory even though the parents appear to be pure there could well be a touch of intergrade in there soewhere otherwise why would such pure well marked parents throw such unusuallly marked offspring that have very far from the norm of what is accepted or commonly known to be or have the classic markers and characteristics of a pure diamond which is not necessarily perfect rosettes and no striping at all as has been shown many times it does occur in pure diamonds but i have never seen it to this degree is all i'm saying!Nobody is an expert and even show someone who is very experienced with the purity of diamonds these animals without them knowing their background i'm sure they would say not pure also it's only those who know for sure they came from Gosford from originally wild caught animals....do these happen to come from Craig Lattas line at all?

Nice animals however i prefer the look of a typical diamond like the parents with nice high yellow!There's no use arguing about the purity and intergrades etc as there will always be something come along contrary to the norm to throw a spanner in the works and prove many others wrong,variety is big and unless we know the lineage ourselves or have the experience of having caught hundreds of pure diamonds in the wild none of us can say for sure if they are pure or not as most are just going on what's written and said to be a pure diamond and what characteristics they are meant to have to be classed as pure,that's just what i reckon anyway!!


----------



## Moreliaman (Nov 23, 2007)

Thats something a bit different ash....bit like this bredli i found on the net

Striped bredli


----------



## pugsly (Nov 23, 2007)

There is a few striped Bredli going around now.. Nice animal too.

There not a Latta line Browns, there Dan Gilbertson I think, (or Matt Bonnet has some similar, not the stripes, but wierd patterns..)

Again, I dont know why people want a diamond that looks like an intergrade, but each to their own hey Boa!! Its a beautiful snake non the less.


----------



## Colin (Nov 23, 2007)

boa was 'goldenboy'  the father of your diamonds?


----------



## zulu (Nov 23, 2007)

*Striped Diamond*



BROWNS said:


> Those are certainly pushing the boundries of what's a diamond or not and if they are pure it would be interesting to see if the parents have thrown this type before or not and even if the parents are said to be pure Gosford animals which would have to be traced back thoroughly to wild caught animals from an exaact locality in Gosford.
> 
> To me striping could occur in any species as it does such as it has here and with bredli 2 species which aren't very common to have stripes at all so i'm hoping for the breeders etc i's a genetic mutation which can happen with all animals but all the indicators of the animals boa posted are really pushing those boundries and indicators of being pure such as the very large or conjoined rosettes or saddles and stripes are a bit more than most would still accept as being pure and as said unless you 100% know their ancestory it's all a guess???
> 
> ...



That really fluoro yellow diamond parent looks like the female i had from the 97 amnesty when a guy i know crossed lismore coastals with black wild caught diamonds,thje 50/50s come out with rossettes and weird fluoro yellow colouration,he sold dozens of them as diamonds all over the place.The ones in the first pictures on the thread look like jungle crosses IMO.
Ime obviously in the minority but i think if youre breeding hybrids or integrades or your unsure sell them for what they are as the captive gene pool is being broken down.Its a reflaction of how hard to keep and breed real diamonds are that these oddities are popping up begging for acceptance by us amatuers that are not in the know. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## Retic (Nov 23, 2007)

Wayne, thanks very much, we are both hoping it is genetic.
Mark, that is a beautiful Bredli but can't be pure with a stripe like that 
Colin, yes Goldenboy was the father.
Thanks everyone for your input.


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 23, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Matt Bonnet has some similar, not the stripes, but wierd patterns...



Hi Pugsly,
We certainly have stripes in our lineage  He's been mating away happily this season....
Matt


----------



## pugsly (Nov 23, 2007)

Sorry Matt, forgot about that one, seen him before. 

Again spectacular animal (obviously) but I just can't call it a Diamond, thats just me. What makes a 'Diamond' to me is the patterns, the individual rosettes, and to some degree colouring. Just like the literature. That animal, although I know you are going to tell me was a 'Gosford' or wherever in 'Diamond' territory, IMO has to have some intergrade/carpet blood in it. 

I was of the belief it may have been incubation, but thats since been disproved, so I just can't see how we can call it a Diamond when it clearly looks nothing like one!

Again, I would LOVE it in my collection, but can't see how you would ever see one like that in any of the known Diamond territories, I am yet to see a photograph of one which was FOUND in Diamond territory that looks anything like having stripes, let alone ones like that.

JMO


----------



## zulu (Nov 23, 2007)

*re Striped*

Ive got a thorough bred racehorse which would interest some of you,beautiful colouration,enter him in the melbourne cup,mates rates,fully vaccinated,absolutely pure animal.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 23, 2007)

I think Boa gets off on the controversy that follows these animals!! hahaha

If they are going to be around for a while, I would like to see them only be bred with other stripes, or (as already noted) we are going to have every man and his dog who owns a partially striped Port Mac start palming them off as Striped Diamonds. Thats the biggest concern for me..


----------



## Retic (Nov 23, 2007)

Beautiful snake Matt, I would love some of it's offspring 
LOL, no not really Pugs but I do find it interesting.


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 23, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Again spectacular animal (obviously) but I just can't call it a Diamond, thats just me.



Just as well you're not a taxonimist 



pugsly said:


> I was of the belief it may have been incubation, but thats since been disproved



Has it?! By Whom?! I wish someone would tell me these things! Hahaha!

Matt


----------



## pugsly (Nov 23, 2007)

Well the hatchlings Boa has are not the result of incubation. Are you saying your one there WAS the result of it? Would be much easier to believe! haha.

On another note, any luck tracking those [email protected]%%^! down??


----------



## zulu (Nov 23, 2007)

*re Striped*

You turn the incubator up to 34c before you go to beddybyes HaHa makes all the little colour run from head to bum pugsley! Why do you have little faith my son,thats no jungle cross in matts picture,thats one of them 100 percentres pugs.Have you seen the giant striped diamond from douglas park,it howls all night long! " Where are my golden stripes" Where are my golden stripes" Oh Where oh Where is my Golden stripes!!!!! a voice answered from far far far away as if it was coming from the cave indicus has in the atherton tablelands,HERE I AM lost serpent, "fill out an import permitt and ile be withya soon little buddy! 

The striped racehorsey is now sold,sorry to all those who missed out! :lol:


----------



## BIG RYANO (Nov 23, 2007)

pugsly said:


> I just can't call it a Diamond, thats just me. What makes a 'Diamond' to me is the patterns, the individual rosettes, and to some degree colouring. Just like the literature.


So would you say an unbanded Tiger snake is not a Tiger snake? I'm not taking sides or having a go at you, just curious if your appearance criteria applies to all species, or just diamonds/intergrades.


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 23, 2007)

Nice looking animals ashley, best of luck with your plans for them in the future

Hey matt, good luck with them, iif there's a room on your waiting list can you put my name for a pair please of course 



flavirufus said:


> Hi Pugsly,
> We certainly have stripes in our lineage  He's been mating away happily this season....
> Matt


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Nov 23, 2007)

Matt 
that striped diamond is hot stuff,
love all the striped morelias ,
cheers 
Roger


----------



## pugsly (Nov 23, 2007)

Zulu - Time to get off the turps mate!!

Big Ryano - No not all species, that would be absurd. Why? Because in a number of other species the variations ARE huge, and have been documented as such. Diamond variation is only just coming out of the woodwork now, why is that? 

You tell me how you would classify a Diamond then? Funny how NO ONE wants to have a go at it, why? because they will put all the snakes which have been shown above into the intergrade category.
 
If you saw a 'pure' Bredli that looked like a Diamond, what would you call it? A DIAMOND.

So what everyone is basically saying is that every book that describes a Diamond python is wrong? Ok, no worries..


----------



## Inkslinger (Nov 23, 2007)

20 years ago they would have been euthanasiased give me a CLASSIC gosford every time yep agree pretty python but not a Diamond


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 23, 2007)

Pugs, this is the first time your arguments have ever seemed so silly to me.

Does an albino Darwin look like a darwin carpet to you?


----------



## cockney red (Nov 23, 2007)

*I would say it would only apply to pythons that would be more lucrative if "pure". Tigers dont warrant the smoke screen. Not lucrative enough. 

*


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 23, 2007)

To me a Diamond python is a carpet python that originated within the area that diamond pythons occurred.

Within species there is always variation, just look at greens (ranging from blue to yellow) tigers (yellow and black to black) brown tree snakes etc! To say these are intergrades or not diamonds because they look different to the norm is absurd.


----------



## serpenttongue (Nov 23, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Zulu - Time to get off the turps mate!!
> 
> Big Ryano - No not all species, that would be absurd. Why? Because in a number of other species the variations ARE huge, and have been documented as such. Diamond variation is only just coming out of the woodwork now, why is that?
> 
> ...


 
Actually, quite well said there Pugsly.


----------



## cockney red (Nov 23, 2007)

*Pugs, i think you were being very polite by putting them in the intergrade catagory.*


----------



## zulu (Nov 23, 2007)

*re Striped*



cockney red said:


> *I would say it would only apply to pythons that would be more lucrative if "pure". Tigers dont warrant the smoke screen. Not lucrative enough.
> 
> *



Yeh,its a pathetic grab for dollars,mostly from outside NSW ,its just misrepresentation, more beer!


----------



## zulu (Nov 23, 2007)

*re Striped*



cockney red said:


> *Pugs, i think you were being very polite by putting them in the intergrade catagory.*



Yeh too true,they are more like jungle crosses that should be represented as jungle croosses ( hybrids)


----------



## Goannas1 (Nov 23, 2007)

pugsly said:


> I was of the belief it may have been incubation, but thats since been disproved,



who told you that pugsly ??


----------



## Retic (Nov 23, 2007)

...


----------



## MatE (Nov 23, 2007)

here is my coastal intergrade ENJOY.Nice looking intergades to lol.


----------



## cockney red (Nov 23, 2007)

*Stunning


*


----------



## zulu (Nov 23, 2007)

*re Striped*

Yeh thats a nice snake for sure Matt.


----------



## jay76 (Nov 23, 2007)

this is another one of matthew Bonnetts line of gosfords golds its not a great picture it is very bright yellow in the light


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 24, 2007)

pugsly said:


> There is a few striped Bredli going around now.. Nice animal too.
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> ...


----------



## Retic (Nov 24, 2007)

Thank you Joel, absolutely spot on.


----------



## da_donkey (Nov 24, 2007)

Oh were doing this again ay :lol:


----------



## Retic (Nov 24, 2007)

Yes we are back to the Diamonds that can't be Diamonds even though both parents are Diamonds


----------



## dickyknee (Nov 24, 2007)

Boa , they are very nice looking snakes mate ,Regardless of what people like to call them..


----------



## Retic (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks mate.


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Nov 24, 2007)

What is the taxonomical difference between a Diamond, Coastal, Jungle & MD? I have asked this question many a time and never received a definite answer. The only answer I could ever get is that they look different. Scale counts the same, dna the same etc. To me, if a coastal looking spilota turns up in Wollongong then it is a coastal. But I may be wrong. Perhaps it is a Diamond because of locality.

Matt, I would like to see what a taxonomist would say on the matter?

My personal, unqualified, opinion is that all these arguements/disucssions stem out of the fact that we have split spilota into all those sup species based purely on looks and location. So you throw a Coastal over a Black Diamond and get an intergrade looking offspring that many people will call a pure diamond but without locality information and you now have a pure diamond. Cross it with another pure diamond and you could get anything but it is still offered as a pure diamond.

I doubt that all this cross breeding was going on in the wild.

I'm up for putting all spilota back into the one species and call Boa's snakes striped spilota. Then there will be no doubt as to their purity. Call diamonds Sydney Carpets or Gosford Carpets or Port Mac Carpets.

And as to the arguement of different coloured Brown Snakes, yes that is correct. There are also different coloured Spilota but we decided to call them different species. Maybe we could subdivide BHP's into differnet sub species from Qld, NT & WA. Same with Frillies. Oh, why stop there. Aren't different locality humans also somewhat different in appearance. And funny thing, cross humans from different localities and you get the best looking ones as well.

As I said, my opinion is totally unqualified so take it as you will.


----------



## NickM (Nov 24, 2007)

Were all the offspring unusuall or were there some in the clutch that resembled the parents? If there were some normnal appearing animnals in the clutch then it could be a recessive mutation.

If there are unusual animals as well as normals in the clutch then it suggests a recessive trait. All the unusuall ones both striped and not striped could be the homozygous version of this mutation. 

If all the offspring are unusuall then it suggests that the trait will not be genetic. The only exlainations for an entire clutch being so unusuall would developmental problems during incubation, temerature issues during incubation , and of course that they really are hybrids and those are not their parents.

Nick


----------



## Inkslinger (Nov 24, 2007)

jay76 said:


> this is another one of matthew Bonnetts line of gosfords golds its not a great picture it is very bright yellow in the light


Nice colour terrible rosettes


----------



## pugsly (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks Serp. Means a lot coming from you.

STILL no one can tell me how you tell a Diamond from an Intergrade... Funny that.

As noted, the ONLY difference is the pattern. So you can tell me what ever story you like, there still not a Diamond, according to the way we classify a diamond python.

Im probably with Pete here in a way, it seems the ONLY way we could fix the issue is to put them in the same category. BUT, to me there is a clear difference between a Diamond and an Intergrade, how on earth half the people on here can still claim they are Diamonds I will never know, but quite clearly you haven't read a book on them lately...

Again, I think they are spectacular snakes. But there NOT what a Diamond should, could or does look like. Meaning ....


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 24, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Well the hatchlings Boa has are not the result of incubation. Are you saying your one there WAS the result of it? Would be much easier to believe! haha.



I'm certainly saying it COULD be as a result of incubation. When that snake hatched out, that's exactly what I thought it was, but successive clutches producing striped babies has made me wonder. The problem is, with the slow maturation of diamonds, it will take many years to go through several generations of breeding to determine if there's a genetic basis to it. In the meantime, I'm not claiming anything except that I believe it to be a pure diamond with stripes (that looks pretty cool!).

On the topic of its its purity, I never collected the original founder animals (which were several generations back), so I'll never have that absolute confidence of their provenance. However, after looking in to it, it appears that all of the animals in our breeding group have originated from Peter Krauss (via trusted breeders like Simon Stone and Russel Grant). There's always the possibility that someone played silly buggers with the purity somewhere along the line, but I don't believe that to be the case. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it!



pugsly said:


> On another note, any luck tracking those [email protected]%%^! down??



Not sure what this means?



Jungleland said:


> IMO not because it's different or has striped it automatically qualifies as an intergrade or hybrids I suppose we got used to seeing some animals as in there "CLASSIC" look and we got used to that and when we see species that's a little different( like daves woma thread) we start to think Hey that can't be right or pure because that's not what we use on seeing(which is fair enough in some extent)



Excellent point Joel! A striped diamond simply does not look like a 'classic' diamond. However, striping is not at all uncommon in the Morelia spilota complex. A genetically striped diamond WILL NOT look like a classic diamond and neither will an incubation-affected striped diamond. It just so happens that carpet x diamond hybrids can tend towards a similar (though, in my opinion, different) look and this confuses some people.

To be honest, its quite heartening that a number of people are being vigilant about potential hybrids and I think we'd be a bit worse off if people stopped questioning 'suspect' snakes. I don't particularly like the hybrids that are filtering in to the hobby, but I don't mind the morphs as much. I guess that's because morphs are still carrying the wild-type genes (which are to be treasured), but they're just being masked. On the other hand, hybrids cause the wild-type genes to be lost forever in a genetic pea soup. 

I welcome you to keep questioning my snakes until I really get to the bottom of it! I'm just hoping that the bottom of it is some form of simple (or, at least, easily repeatable) genetic inheritance :lol:

Regards,
Matt


----------



## Retic (Nov 24, 2007)

We keep coming back to the same thing, even though I know the parents of these snakes are pure Diamonds and trust the breeder 100% I should call them Intergrades, wouldn't that be misrepresentation ? 
Then we get the ridiculous statements like they are Diamond/Jungle crosses. 
I am all for returning them to one species, they can't be divided at a DNA level so as far as I can see there is no justification for splitting them at all.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 24, 2007)

I just can't get my head around pug's argument. They don't look like normal diamonds, yet the parents were diamonds, so they can't be diamonds....


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 24, 2007)

To answer your question on what makes a diamond a diamond and an intergrade an intergrade is quite simple but there is always going to be something that comes along that is contrary to what makes a pure diamond or intergrade and there are always exceptions to the rules.

If you are just going by what books say i'm sorry but that doesn't necessarily mean they are correct especially depending which book and when it was written.

Pure diamonds are meant to have as close to perfect diamond shaped rosettes all over the body with none touching each other and nice and evenly spaced and then tere is cloour which ranges hugely in diamonds from black and white to high yellows and inbetweens and just because any diamond does not show these characteristics mainly being the pattern doesn't mean they aren't pure,if you have seen as many pure diamonds in the wild as you say you have i'd bet many of them did not conform to what a pure diamond is meant to look like.If the animal comes from pure diamond locality then to me that's pure wether it has bigger than normal rosettes and some lateral striping or not.

I have seen many crosses and pure intergades that look every bit the pure diamond but they aren't and how anyone can tell they aren't for sure has me beat.I put up numerous pics some time ago of pure intergrades bred by the best known intergade breeder in the hobby and quite a few people including B Whitey could not tell that they were proper intergrades and not pure diamonds and i'm sure of the many people in the hobby he has seen enough wild pure diamonds to know what he's talking about but still can't be 100% sure of certain animals other than going on who bred them and their ancestory.

Just because a diamond doesn't look like what the books say a pure diamond is meant to look like doesn't mean it's not pure at all.The variation i've seen in books of supposed pure diamonds including patterning and colour has been quite varied however not as varied as most other spilota.

As far as striped carpets not being so comon years ago i ave to disagree especially with Proserpines,in general most wild Proserpines i see have some degree of striping,you have to remember Proserpines were first started off in the hobby by only one or two people a long time back as far as i'm aware and many from that original lineage i've seen haven't shown much striping but that goes back to the type of animals fcaught that were bred from.If striped ones were amongst the first caught and bred and introduced into the hobby i'm sure there would be more striped prossies than not.I've seen my fair share and i'd say up to 3/4 have been striped or partially striped or at least joined patterning along the dorsal area but more zig zag than straight stripes!

I've heard a few stories regarding pure diamonds and the crossing of them to get them to breed easier and i fel it holds some weight but i can't say for sure or not and aren't about to put my foot right in it so to speak.Look at how hard the US and overseas have found it to breed pure diamonds and they had very pure diamonds way back when animals were introduced but still they don't breed them consistantly and have outcrossed them with other spilota to get them to breed easier and some of those offspring look everybit the pure diamond to me!

Here's a pic many could not distiguish as to wether it's an intergrade or pure diamond,what would you say this one is although it doesn't fit into the category of a pure diamond as far as a little striping and not perfect small diamond shaped rosettes?


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 24, 2007)

Sorry couldn't find edit to put the pic in and can't read the whole posts ppl are writing just missing a few letters at the right???


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 24, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Thanks Serp. Means a lot coming from you.
> 
> STILL no one can tell me how you tell a Diamond from an Intergrade... Funny that.
> 
> ...


----------



## zulu (Nov 24, 2007)

*re Striped*

Who has any experience with wild diamonds from different localities,not many,bob whithey,serpentongue ,pugsly one day ide like to see a wild one just to find out if they have stripes,ime sick of boa teasing me all the time,its ruining my time in the house and makes me feel uncomfortable and he chews his finger nails at the computer making me nervous too


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 24, 2007)

BROWNS said:


> As far as striped carpets not being so comon years ago i ave to disagree especially with Proserpines,in general most wild Proserpines
> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> ...


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 24, 2007)

Yep Joel,too true,if only some of the ones i've seen around had been collected way back we'd have some stunning carpets around now like the stunners of yours,they're as good or better than many jags that's for sure,remember we usually only see the best specimens with jags.A friend just showed me a pic of a 5 footer hanging off her fridge with nice orange/yellow and full dorsal stripe andi've seen one like your avatar once that not many believe me about.There is big variety in the wild with these guys and you get some real fuglys too but in general the majorityi see are striped to some degree like this one i posted on another forum..

I've seen some cracker perfectly banded wild ones too with great colour and the reduced patterned ones which are sort of striped are pretty common too,unfortunately this one was a fresh roadkill!


----------



## MatE (Nov 24, 2007)

Just talking about striped wild animals i havent seen any diamond striped animals,but when i was a young fella i came across a perfectly striped coastal that would rival and today,from the coffs harbour region.But had to release it as i didnt even have a reptile licence then oh well.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 24, 2007)

This is a good thread, and I hope no one is taking anything personally.

Matt - I was referring to the Stolen GTPs.

Waz - You dont need to understand it. Somethings I can't understand either, like Labor getting into government, but hey, it happens...

Back to the topic. Especially striped animals. Steve6638030593 posted a few animals from Coffs recently on here, which look IDENTICAL to ALL the so called diamonds in this thread. I would love for him to put some pics up for me. As for stripes, they have been around. Go to Coffs and every second snake has a full stripe down its back.. Not uncommon. My point is, take one of the Diamond looking Coffs carpets, put it over a normal, and hey presto...

In my opinion, there is (someway back in the line) intergrade presense in these snakes. Thats just me, am I right? Who knows, clearly by this thread no one actually has a clue on what they are, how to define a Diamond, or an intergrade, so there in lies the problem. 

I would love to see some CLEARLY defined descriptions of each of the carpets at issue here. Yes there will always be mutations and morphs etc etc, as we see in the Coastals, but with the Diamonds, again, show me evidence of 1 striped Diamond in the Wild.. not going to happen. (Buddha has seen one with partial striping which was found recently apparently, but the location of which and any photo or other evidence is still missing..)

At the end of the day, I raise these things because I dont want to see idiots passing off hybrids and intergrades as Diamonds. Simple as that, because its already happening, and will only get worse, and there is no way in hell I will be purchasing any 'Diamond' which completely resembles an intergrade...


----------



## Retic (Nov 24, 2007)

Pugs, I certainly haven't taken anything you have said personally. We get on very well and I know why you have taken your stance on this. 



pugsly said:


> This is a good thread, and I hope no one is taking anything personally.
> 
> ...


----------



## slacker (Nov 24, 2007)

I'm starting to get a bit confused here.

According to some posts I've read (I think it was earlier in this thread) there's no difference between animals in the Morelia spilota complex beyond that of colouration and patterning i.e. no scale count differences etc.

That suggests to me that they're all really just a different "phase" of the same thing, much like a striped carpet compared to a banded, in which case, does it really make a difference WHAT the parents were, so long as the seller isn't falsely labelling them? Hell, if that's the case, how CAN the seller even be "falsely labelling them?" :?

On the other side of the coin, if they really ARE just different phases, then what's the go with Diamond Python Syndrome? Why don't coastals get it? Surely there has to be more genetic differences between spilota spilota and spilota mcdowelli, than that which affects colouring and patterning, if DPS only exists in spilota spilota. Unless, of course, DPS does not actually exist and all claimed occurrences of it were simply poor genes, some kind of disease, or even poor husbandry....

Hopefully that won't start a flame war, I'm not intending to stir the pot... just getting a little confused now.


----------



## steve6610 (Nov 24, 2007)

pugs, heh, thats ponybug on here, steve6610 on other websites, :lol:

i think these diamonds are stunning, and dan, if you read this, i hope we can do a deal with some nice coastals......

but just because u asked nicely pugs, a couple of my pure coffs harbour coastals...........


----------



## Retic (Nov 24, 2007)

I love that top one Steve. I have to get myself some of those.


----------



## steve6610 (Nov 24, 2007)

it is stunning, a friend bred them, you should see his hold backs, wow, they are even better, and full striped with reduced head patterns, 
hoping to breed them next season...........


----------



## pugsly (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks Steve.

So... Can anyone else see the familiarality there!!?!??!?!

You put that pure Coastal carpet, next to these so called pure Diamonds, and tell me that the 'Diamonds' in question are pure. Please...


----------



## pugsly (Nov 24, 2007)

Glimmerman also has an intergrade which is probably the best I have ever seen, maybe he will put that up too. Then again, tell me that these snakes dont have intergrade in them..


----------



## steve6610 (Nov 25, 2007)

i'm not getting into the debate about what they are, all i know is i want a pair, haha, 

the funny thing is pugs, the breeder of this pair of pure coastals was hounded on this very forum when he tried to sell then, all the experts back then said they were hybrids / crosses, to the point where he doesn't post the parents pics much anymore, 
so funny how things change, your now using those same hatchys now 2 years later to prove that somebody elses diamonds are intergrades, 

i hope you can see the funny side of that, ...............

i still think the diamonds ash posted are pure diamonds, but just a morph, i'd love to see what they throw when paired together........... but i'm not a diamond expert.......... i prefer port macs.........


----------



## reptilegirl_jordan (Nov 25, 2007)

there beautiful! well done


----------



## peterjohnson64 (Nov 25, 2007)

-aspidites- said:


> I'm starting to get a bit confused here.
> 
> According to some posts I've read (I think it was earlier in this thread) there's no difference between animals in the Morelia spilota complex beyond that of colouration and patterning i.e. no scale count differences etc.
> 
> ...



Hi Aspidites, that'd be me. and I was more asking a question than making a comment. I still want someone to tell me the difference between Diamonds, Coastals etc. Clearly by your comment re them being just a different phase then you are agreeing with me about merging the subspecies back into one. However, I must admit that the scientists that originally agreed to splitting them would have a bit more knowledge about these things than me. Maybe someone can enlighten us as to why they were split. (Even though Diamonds always were). Oh, and this happened after I took an interest in Herps and blew me away years later when I came back in.

And as for DPS - well again thats no different to humans. Some humans are more susceptible to different diseases than others but they haven sub species'd us yet. Negros probably handle the sun better than Pommies. And then - what is DPS anyway????

BUT.... If we are to continue to subclassify spilota then we need to know what a Diamond Python is. After we know what a Diamond Python is then we can decide what Boa's animals are. But surely that must at least start with a definition or taxonomical description of M spilota spilota??


----------



## MatE (Nov 25, 2007)

Ive seen something very similar to the bottom two pictures getting around coffs harbour but without the reduced head pattern.So why cant they be just a morph of a pure locale carpet?Ive also seen the carpets they get from down south(wild caught port maqaurie)and there much darker in colour.My mate is with wires so i get to see alot of different locale carpets.


ponybug said:


> pugs, heh, thats ponybug on here, steve6610 on other websites, :lol:
> 
> i think these diamonds are stunning, and dan, if you read this, i hope we can do a deal with some nice coastals......
> 
> but just because u asked nicely pugs, a couple of my pure coffs harbour coastals...........


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 25, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Matt - I was referring to the Stolen GTPs.



I haven't heard anything about stolen GTPs being recovered onfortunately. Do you mean the most recent animals in Queensland, the ones from over a year ago in Adelaide, or others?? You've kinda lost me. Apologies if the question wasn't directed at me in the first place.



pugsly said:


> So... Can anyone else see the familiarality there!!?!??!?!
> 
> You put that pure Coastal carpet, next to these so called pure Diamonds, and tell me that the 'Diamonds' in question are pure. Please...



When I saw the pics I thought "Oh god, please don't tell me someone's trying to pass them off as diamonds!" Having read the post, noone is trying to call them diamonds thankfully. I realise that the differences are subtle, but I now understand why you're struggling with this concept, Steve.

Matt


----------



## steve6610 (Nov 25, 2007)

flavirufus said:


> When I saw the pics I thought "Oh god, please don't tell me someone's trying to pass them off as diamonds!" Having read the post, noone is trying to call them diamonds thankfully. I realise that the differences are subtle, but I now understand why you're struggling with this concept, Steve.
> 
> Matt



hi matt, they are my coastals, and nope, they aren't diamonds, :lol::lol: but they have been called hybrids, :shock: but they are 100% coffs harbour coastals, 

i'd love to buy the parents, but my mates still holding out on me...........


----------



## cockney red (Nov 25, 2007)

*Great thread.. Amazes me Pugsley, that people cannot understand that their are no" Diamonds" out there in the wild with dirty great horseshoe markings on the back of their heads.*


----------



## Retic (Nov 25, 2007)

Nick, the offspring varied from 'standard' through to 2/3rds striped and various in betweens. Incubator temperature was 30.5 constant. 



NickM said:


> Were all the offspring unusuall or were there some in the clutch that resembled the parents? If there were some normnal appearing animnals in the clutch then it could be a recessive mutation.
> 
> If there are unusual animals as well as normals in the clutch then it suggests a recessive trait. All the unusuall ones both striped and not striped could be the homozygous version of this mutation.
> 
> ...


----------



## zulu (Nov 25, 2007)

*re Striped*



Inkslinger said:


> 20 years ago they would have been euthanasiased give me a CLASSIC gosford every time yep agree pretty python but not a Diamond



Yeh,they do exist the stripey genuine gosford golds,i was driving down ourimbah road near gosford the other day and low and behold i saw a huge 3 metre gold striper on the road.I promptly ran it over,revved up and skidded over the beast backwards.I then got out to inspect the beasty which was in his last dying moments on this planet,i herd a faint whisper "come closer non believer,i have a message for boa and matt". I edged closer to the huge striped dying serpent,suspecting it may well be boobytrapped.I am the last one of my breed left in the wild,tell boa and matt,to look after my children. Then he dyed,oh how sad i was this rare mythical beast was dead,great thunder and lightning filled the ourimbah sky and as i got back into the car i thought ide run the bugger over again just to make sure the mongrel was dead cause it just goes on an on HaHa .


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 25, 2007)

LOL zulu,you rack me up:lol:

Pugs,not having a go mate but you haven't exactly been herping for a very long time but now somehow seem to be of the opinion you're well qualified enough to tell everyone here about what is and isn't a pure diamond.I seem to remember a thread a while back which i'm sure was deleted where indicus asked you the very same question you're asking now,being "what makes a diamond a diamond and an intergrade an intergrade etc etc" but you had no answer for him and were in return given a full answer and explanation to your question you ask still now but couldn't answer yourself a short while back.Please don't take this the wrong way or personally as i'm not having a go at you but until you have caught and photographed and taken records etc of as many diamonds in the wild as many others on this forum i know have i feel your arguement holds no weight for me unfortunately and you can't just go by books or taking photos of others collections,it takes a hell of a lot more time field herping than i'm sure you have done to be able to give a qualified opinion on diamonds and intergrades based on your sole experience alone and nobody elses!

Again i mean no offence and hope you don't take it personally as that's not how it's meant to come across.As for an answer maybe you should go back a page or two ,i did give you an answer but if it wasn't good enough for you i'm sorry i'm sure there's 100 more qualified people on here than me or yourself who can answer that for you although i have a fair idea why may haven't bothered to comment.I also posted a pic for you to take a look at and maybe take a stab at it's purity if you're willing to give it a shot.When i write these things and the same question still gets asked i wonder why i bother at times.

If nobody else can give you the answer to your question maybe you could tell all of us how it's meant to be and not meant to be,i'm sure there's many dying to hear your interperatations on what makes a diamond pure,or an intergrade an intergrade remembering the many and varied localities and variations within these animals themselves?I'm talking wild animals here not captive bred as you only have a breeders word on how genuine the locality or animal is.

Cheers and once again no hard feelings meant!!


----------



## zulu (Nov 25, 2007)

*re Striped*

Hi Browns,see those coffs harbour carpets that ponybug has posted that are ver attractive animals hey,different in looks at least to port macs which have the more diamondish appearance.I used to be at kumbaingeri wildlife park around 1970 after kerry head left,ide go up there on the scool holidays and camp in the reptile room which was an old school house.Robert Mutton the owner one day was at a dairy farm talking to a farmer he knew at bellingen and he heard something moving in the barn walls,sure enough it was a big carpet like pony bugs in colouration,the pattern of a normal coastal with the colours and brightness of a diamond from the south.This particilar specimen was the nicest one that ide seen come into the wildlife park over the years i was there,most were the typical run of the mill coastals,ive got some coffs harbour ones myself,nice and stripey,one is hypo in appaerance,but they are not as nice as the ones pony bug put up which is like the bellingen one which is close to coffs.These particular type are the ones Eric Worrell described in his book retiles of australia,"the pattern of a carpet python and the colour of a diamond" which he sescribes the intergrade form being from Kempsey dorrigo region,have onley seen one young one in the early 70s which was caught crossing the road near dorrigo,very nice,bit diamond like but too young to tell what an adult would like.


----------



## MatE (Nov 25, 2007)

zulu said:


> Hi Browns,see those coffs harbour carpets that ponybug has posted that are ver attractive animals hey,different in looks at least to port macs which have the more diamondish appearance.I used to be at kumbaingeri wildlife park around 1970 after kerry head left,ide go up there on the scool holidays and camp in the reptile room which was an old school house.Robert Mutton the owner one day was at a dairy farm talking to a farmer he knew at bellingen and he heard something moving in the barn walls,sure enough it was a big carpet like pony bugs in colouration,the pattern of a normal coastal with the colours and brightness of a diamond from the south.This particilar specimen was the nicest one that ide seen come into the wildlife park over the years i was there,most were the typical run of the mill coastals,ive got some coffs harbour ones myself,nice and stripey,one is hypo in appaerance,but they are not as nice as the ones pony bug put up which is like the bellingen one which is close to coffs.These particular type are the ones Eric Worrell described in his book retiles of australia,"the pattern of a carpet python and the colour of a diamond" which he sescribes the intergrade form being from Kempsey dorrigo region,have onley seen one young one in the early 70s which was caught crossing the road near dorrigo,very nice,bit diamond like but too young to tell what an adult would like.


I work in dorrigo from time to time as im a traffic controller so i get around a bit and have seen the animals you are talking about as an adult animal crawled between me and my STOP/SLOW sign while i was holding it lol.They look like diamonds but was told from a mate they are carpets.But i swear it looked like a Diamond.Ive also seen a snake from a place called copmanhurst which is up the clarence river when i was camping and it was black and white and fat and chunky and looked like a diamond,and just around the next bend so coastal of 8 feet or more with the normal colouration.So where does the line go for diamond /coastal range as these animals are miles away from the portmaqaurie "border"?


----------



## BIG RYANO (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> You tell me how you would classify a Diamond then?


I actually class them all as the same animal, all the different carpets/diamonds/intergrades that is. I agree with Simon Fearns opinion in the latest mag. I also think the "intergrades" from Port Stephens, are the best looking of them all. A mate had one recently that was the best looking Morelia i've ever seen.


----------



## NickM (Nov 26, 2007)

The simple fact that some of the clutchmates were typical diamonds and some were unusuall suggests its just a recessive mutation.

Some mutations are color and pattern mutations and this fits that model. If they were some sort of hybrid then we would expect to see all of the offspring resembling hybirds to some extent. The fact that the parents are typical diamonds as well as some of the offspring suggest that both parents are hets.

A repeat breeding of thesame parents that yields similar results would confirm this. Also any breeding of the abberant offsping together should yeild all mutants.

The fact that neither parent is unusuall rules out a co-domiant trait , and the presence of multiple abberants in the clutch strongly goes against the chance that it was a spontaneous mutation.

If it is a mutation then the striping may not always be present in the mutant offspring. There appears to be striped as well as banded mutatns in the clutch so it appears as though the striping is inconsistant and not always present in thje homozygous offspring.

A few more breeding will answer all the questions very definitively. If they were crosses of some sort then the look will simply fade away with each generation they are bred to diaomonds and if they are a real mutation the results should be repeatable . 

By chance were the parents from the same geographic area? this increases the chances that they are carrying a recessive gene. There are numerous examples of this in other species. While the mutatants may not often survive in the wild the normal appearing heterozygous animals do fine and pass that gene along. so the wild morphs we see are usually just the result of a few wild "hets" that randomly run into each other.

I know of many people who have produced ball python morphs when breeding their morph males to assumed nomal imported females. in each case the female turned out to be wild collected "hets"

Nick


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 26, 2007)

NickM said:


> The simple fact that some of the clutchmates were typical diamonds and some were unusuall suggests its just a recessive mutation.
> 
> Some mutations are color and pattern mutations and this fits that model. If they were some sort of hybrid then we would expect to see all of the offspring resembling hybirds to some extent. The fact that the parents are typical diamonds as well as some of the offspring suggest that both parents are hets.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for your very detailed reply on this thread mr. mutton.

Yeah pugsly I must say a great thread and I don't think anyone is taking offence, just a healthy discussion.

Cheers


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Nov 26, 2007)

Good post Nick 
very interesting 
cheers
Roger


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

No offence taken Browns.

I don't claim and never have to have the knowledge or experience of a Sh.. load of other herpers on here.

That doesnt mean I haven't done my own research, and discussed this topic with several FAR mroe experienced people than most on this forum. 

I have done quite a large amount of photography of Diamonds in the past two years, (when Get Coiled produces his book you will find out HOW much) and I believe I have a good knowledge of the species, several people call me to photograph wild caughts, captive breds, everything. I think I have 3000 photographs of Diamonds alone. I think that and the limited all be it herping I have done qualifies me to have an opinion on the matter.

Not sure what you smoke before jumping online Zulu.. but send some my way!

I have stated in this thread Browns, IMO (whatever its worth) a Diamond is a diamond because of what it looks like, pattern, colour, even size in some circumstances. And yes locale also. You described what a classic diamond by literature is supposed to look like, and thats what I believe it should also. When the rosettes start changing and joining, stripes come in and pattern looks like a carpet. Its not a Diamond..

I haven't bothered to post any pics in this thread as I have done previously. But tonight I might put some up of your classic, pure Diamond. Then of your standard intergrade. Which mirrors these snakes..


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Ok, some pics of 'pure' Diamonds. Note the patterning.
I have included a couple here which even push the boudaries, 1 from Gosford which hasn't got 'perfect' rosettes but in comparison to an intergrade. Can still tell the difference.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Now some intergrades.

Surely we can all see the difference..


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Now finally.

A Coffs carpet pattern. Look familiar?


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 26, 2007)

Pugsly,

Firstly, intergrades have never been described as a species, so what taxonomical name would you assign to them?

Secondly, the descriptions of the different subspecies of Morelia are about as clear as mud, and aren't accepted by most academic herps. My recommendation to people who ask me for advice is to buy their Morelia by locality, not by species/subspecies. Buying animals this way means that you will always know what they are, as it doesn't matter what happens within taxonomical circles, they will always be pure to a specific locale. 

I think nearly every description of Morelia spilota sp. refers to them as a "highly variable" group. I don't have any books with me at the moment, but I would love to see proof that the true description of Diamonds includes the size of their rossettes. 

Thirdly, arguing this point with people like Matt Bonnett and Dan Gilbertson is ridiculous. I couldn't think of two more trustworthy people in the reptile keeping game, and neither have any reason to try and argue that their animals are pure if they weren't. I have personally seen the majority of Dan's Diamond collection, including the striped juveniles and their "perfect" siblings. 

Also, how would you describe something like melanistic Darwin carpets? Are they no longer Darwins because they don't exhibit ANY of their original colouration? What makes them a Darwin if they no longer look like one?

The facts are that these striped Diamonds originated from animals that were originally collected (2 generations ago) in Gosford. Are you trying to suggest that a Gosford animal that appears (and is!) "pure", is able to produce half a clutch of "pure" Diamonds and half a clutch of "intergrades" that don't occur within a few hundred kilometres of Gosford?

What's next, a South West Carpet producing Atherton Jungles and Murray Darlings in one clutch?


----------



## mrsshep77 (Nov 26, 2007)

Pugs in that first lot of pictures you posted... can you tell me the locale of that 5th photo? My male looks like that and I'm trying to do some research on his possible locality as he varies alot from my b&w girl.

By the way I love reading these threads... it helps me gather more info and insight into diamonds as I'm just starting out breeding my own "pure" diamonds hehehe!!!

Cheers,
Mell


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

No need to get all upset Jonno..

I'm not arguing with Matt nor Daniel, I think you will find Matt is as interested in this topic as anyone, and isn't at all upset over this discussion, why don't you let them speak for themselves. I never have questioned their honesty or integrity. The offspring came from parents with 'suspect' at best locale. The locale of the parents is completely unknown, and is what I was referring to in the 'intergrade down the line somewhere'.

Why haven't intergrades been described as a species then? (sub species anyway) I would be all in favour of making them one. Why aren't they included in Spilota Spilota then?

I am at work and don't carry my books around either, but would be happy to post some descriptions from several books later on.

As for melanistic, amelanistic, albino, whatever mutation, you know as well as I do, that is a completely different kettle of fish. If there was one of those (which from what I have heard there IS in the intergrade line) albino's or melanistic snakes appear, of course it would be a Diamond (if in fact that's what it was). Yes of course it would look nothing like it, because of the mutation not because of the fact its black, white purple whatever. That argument is ridiculous.

"What's next, a South West Carpet producing Atherton Jungles and Murray Darlings in one clutch?"

If you claim there pure Diamonds, then thats EXACTLY what you think can happen.

That line just highlights my point. 'Pure' Diamond, can't produce intergrades, UNLESS there is intergrade in the bloodline..


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh and Mrshepp, the 5th one is a Campbelltown locale.


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

I am to be honest enjoying this debate, mostly nothing is being pushed down anyones throat and by and large the debate has been sensible apart from a few bits of fishing.
Having said that none of what has been said alters the facts in anyway shape or form, I agree wholehartedly with what Jonno has said, there is NO doubt as to the pure lineage of Dans animals, NONE. 
I have been told I would misrepresenting the animals if I sold them as pure Diamonds even given the fact that they come from pure parents BUT I have also been told I should sell any offspring as intergrades, wouldn't that be misrepresentation ?

All very nice looking snakes by the way Pugs.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> No need to get all upset Jonno..
> 
> I'm not arguing with Matt nor Daniel, I think you will find Matt is as interested in this topic as anyone, and isn't at all upset over this discussion, why don't you let them speak for themselves. I never have questioned their honesty or integrity. The offspring came from parents with 'suspect' at best locale. The locale of the parents is completely unknown, and is what I was referring to in the 'intergrade down the line somewhere'.
> 
> ...


 
Pugsly,

At the end of the day, you are trying to say that Dan's animals are not pure, while he is certain they are. 

I do not know how you arrived at the assumption that the animals Dan owns are from a "suspect" location. Here's his own account of the history of the animals, BEFORE the first clutch hatched!

"These two are unrelated and were bred from two wild caught pairs collected by a friend of mine in the Gosford area in the early 90's and declared in the 96 amnesty. They were then passed on to me. The male hatched in 99 and the female 2000. I got out of pythons in 2000 when I started getting more interested in elapids and sold them all. This pair landed back in my hands last year from a friend who is doing the same thing I did (getting out of pythons and into elapids). Silly boy....




This is the first time they have bred (now 7 and 8 years old). 

Cheers, 

Daniel"

Intergrades haven't been described as a species because they aren't one. Taxonomy of the Morelia spilota group, as I said earlier, is about as clear as mud. You cannot simply describe an animal based on colouration alone, which is nearly always the only difference with the Morelia spilota group. At the moment, I believe there is only three recognised species - Morelia spilota imbricata, Morelia spilota spilota and Morelia spilota variegata. 

Maybe my example of melanstic Darwins wasn't ideal. What about almost completely patternless Carpet Pythons, exhibiting only the very odd black fleck?

As I said, I'd love to see a description of any Morelia spilota sp. that doesn't refer to them as "variable".


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Then what sis your solution to this? We class Morelia into 3 sub species rather than the ones we have now?

Imbricata - Sure.

Spilota spilota - Which snakes fit here? Diamonds and Intergrades, Diamonds, intergrades, Coastals, jungles?

Varigata - Again, what fits into this category? Darwins and Murray darlings? 

I can't see how we can fit what we have now into 3.

Either they stay how they are, and add intergrades. (My option)

Or, the alternative, which would kill the hobby in my opinion is put them into 1, 3, 4 whatever categories, all this does is say 'Hey Hybrid breeders! Go for your life!"

I can't accept that a locale specific Tully is the same as a Wollongong Diamond. Sorry...


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 26, 2007)

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.

Lumpers and splitters coming to the fore.


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 26, 2007)

Thats right Pugsly, cheynei and say metcalfei are the same thing lol.Go figure huh? Who is anyone to argue? :lol:


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

I know...

Frankly, I have had enough of arguing the same thing. I will continue to keep my 'pure' animals and go on with life fine. But I argue this so vigerously for the hobby. 

Too many herpers have NO idea on what is what, I see it every day and the amount of dodgy hybrid breeders and sellers is disgusting. In a few years time, we are going to be exactly like the US, no one will have a clue what is what.

I am the first to admit I have changed my views on this, when I first got into the hobby I was probably like the majority and saw a pretty snake, didn't care or have a clue what is was or how it got that way, its all aesthetics, but then you see a bigger picture..

Hell there are already wild intergrades in the Royal, soon there will be god knows what will be in our national parks.. But hey I guess if there all under the 1 class then who cares right?


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 26, 2007)

I don't think that taxonomists take the effects of their work on captive animals into consideration. 

My understanding of taxonomy is very basic, but it is my understanding that there needs to be morphological differences to warrant the description of a new species. Colouration means little, and if it didn't, we would have about 5000 species of Tiger Snakes alone. As you know, the difference between nearly all the Morelia spilota group is simply colouration. 

From memory, the classification of those three subspecies of Carpet Python was the result of DNA work, which isn't really able to be argued. I can not for the life of me recall the author of the paper, so if anyone can, please let me know and I will try and obtain a copy.

The solution to the problem is to simply breed locality specific animals. That way regardless of what taxonomy does, the animals will always remain pure.

Regardless, the topic is about Dan Gilbertsons Gosford locale pythons, which produced some very individual looking animals.


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 26, 2007)

"classification of those three subspecies of Carpet Python was the result of DNA work" turned out to be a great thing for some breeders to justify the hybridising of different animals in the hobby.I have heard talk of this paper like most others have but have never been able to find it yet alone read it.Anyone else read the paper I wonder?


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

"As you know, the difference between nearly all the Morelia spilota group is simply colouration"

No.. size, location, pattern, colour.

If this DNA were true, then there would already be only 3 classes. Clearly it hasn't been proved or who ever did it has little respect from those who draft these classes.

"The solution to the problem is to simply breed locality specific animals. That way regardless of what taxonomy does, the animals will always remain pure."

Yeah right.. Are you serious? You think 99% of the keepers here care about locale specifics. Not a chance, thats a great dream mate and one day lets hope it raises to 10%. In the mean time, back on planet earth, this is not going to happen, even worse, if your so called 3 classes ever came in, not only wont there be locale specific, there will be endless stupid hyrbids being produced.

I don't know alot about taxonomy either, and the Tiger snake example is a good one sure. But there had to be a reason to divide the Morelia Spilota Group up, which was stronger than the same reason to do so in the Tiger Snakes. At the end of the day as Ramsayi said, a Tiger is a Tiger, but a Diamond is NOT an intergrade.


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

Spot on Pugs 



pugsly said:


> but a Diamond is NOT an intergrade.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

lol thanks mate.. took me years to figure it out....


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

After 12 pages Pugs i think we can sum up your argument pretty simply. You do not beleive that these snakes were bred from pure diamonds because of what they look like despite of the breeders claims that they were bred from pure diamonds. 

No offence intended but who are we to trust about the purity of these animals, someone who has seen a couple of pics of them or the breeder?


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

That's quite the summarised version of a conclusion you have there. But non the less it is reasonably accurate.

My point MAINLY was to find out the exact difference between the two, Diamond and Intergrade. No one came up with one. Meaning we should stick to the ones already noted in the books written on the species. According to those, and my own opinion, (again, for what its worth) I believe they have Intergrade in them. Why, because thats exactly what they look like.

The other point, was that if we start calling snakes with patterns like those 'pure diamonds' hybrid breeders, and intergrade owners will be laughing when they put 3 times the price tag on the animals they own as they will now be passed off as Diamonds. But, no one seems to give a damn about that so who cares right?


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> The other point, was that if we start calling snakes with patterns like those 'pure diamonds' hybrid breeders, and intergrade owners will be laughing when they put 3 times the price tag on the animals they own as they will now be passed off as Diamonds. But, no one seems to give a damn about that so who cares right?



This is a very good point. Unfortunately i do not think there is a solution for this kind of problem, which is one of the reasons why i don't and never really plan on owning diamonds or caostals. And if i were to own either of those species (or sub species) they would need to come from a very reputable breeder.


----------



## steve6610 (Nov 26, 2007)

not wanting to get involved, and pugs, boa, dan are all herpers i respect, 

but pugs what your trying to say is these snake can't be diamonds because they look like intergrades, 
now we have seen the parents and they 100% look like diamonds, am i right? 
so now we are to believe that the pure looking diamonds are intergrades, do you see my point, we are to believe that even though dans parents look like diamonds they have to be intergrades because some of the hatchlings from 2 pure looking diamonds look like intergrades,


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 26, 2007)

Three possibilities with the original pics.
1.Someone is genuinely mistaken with the history of the parents.
2.Diamonds can and do look like the ones pictured.
3.Someone is flat out telling porkies.

I know which one I believe.


----------



## steve6610 (Nov 26, 2007)

pugs not having a go at you, but these are your words from your own thread about diamonds, 

"Intergrade, but thats def not to say it might be a diamond or anything else for that matter!

But for me, the joined rosettes are defintately intergrad'ish.

As I said though you can have intergrade looking Diamonds, and Diamond looking intergrades. 

Either way, its one HOT snake."

this was taken from the thread linked below page 5 post number 68, 

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64612

just wanting to direct you back to your own words, also on page one, post number 9 you again state that there can be exceptions

no offence meant pugs, just trying to get the reasons you now say they can't look like an intergrade and be a diamond


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

Absolutely and because I know and trust the breeder that is what makes all this so frustrating on one hand but somewhat comical on the other. 



Ramsayi said:


> Three possibilities with the original pics.
> 1.Someone is genuinely mistaken with the history of the parents.
> 2.Diamonds can and do look like the ones pictured.
> 3.Someone is flat out telling porkies.
> ...


----------



## cockney red (Nov 26, 2007)

*Ramsayi, you summed it up for me. In the end we're talking about what the individual is willing to pay for an obviouse bit of tampering in the bloodline, in the past. I do believe, however that their are enough keepers out there, going by the sensible posts, to at least ensure the authenticity of true Diamonds, will always be there for those apreciaters among us.*


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

How can you be so sure that the blood line is not what the breeder is saying it is?


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 26, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> How can you be so sure that the blood line is not what the breeder is saying it is?



I guess it could be just the same as ,how can you be sure that the bloodline is what the breeder is saying?


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

I don't hink i have said that they are, but if we can't go on the word of a reputable breeder what can we go on?


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Pony..

You have correctly pointed out what I said, and I stand by it, of course there are exceptions. TO A POINT. I am willing to accept that the 5th photo I posted in this thread is a Diamond, it DOES have joined rosettes IN PLACES but in my opinion it would be towards the boundary of being classed a Diamond. That and the fact it is 100% Campbelltown line...

But the snakes here are FAR to far outside of the limits of the Diamond characteristics, no exceptions can be made here. IMO. There is just too much that is NOT Diamond about them.

I know the parents are 'apparently' pure. But the parents MAY look Diamond and be intergrade, hell the way 90% of people here class snakes then they apparently SHOULD be intergrades. Im not disputing the parents however, I AM disputing the parents parents. Or any other generation. There IS intergrade in them IN MY OPINION.

Now your all entitled to yours, and I have spoken to Matt out of the public eye about these and there are no issues at all. So at the end of the day, we are going to have to agree to disagree. 

I would like Serp's opinion on this though, if there is ANYONE I would listen to on Diamonds, and pure ones at that, it is him.


----------



## Nephrurus (Nov 26, 2007)

CHeck out these Pugsley, maybe you identify the hybrids and the intergrades in there. I bet you can't pick them. 





































-H


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

And the point to that Henry was??

Yeah.. no funny one there mate .... ....


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

PhilK - that was discussed a few pages back..

It is a stupid example as Albino's and Amelanistic/melanistic are mutations NOT apparent morphs. It is useless to argue that.


----------



## cockney red (Nov 26, 2007)

*Not a true DPamong them.*


----------



## BT (Nov 26, 2007)

nice diamonds there boa
to the whole intergrade thing has anyone ever found a coastal carpet below coff's or port maquarie?


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> But the snakes here are FAR to far outside of the limits of the Diamond characteristics, no exceptions can be made here.


 
What exactly are the limitations of Diamond Pythons? Can you please point me in the direction of a published description that supports your theory?


----------



## cockney red (Nov 26, 2007)

Take your pick. Any book on Australian snakes. Why do you keep repeating the same thing. Do you not possess any books.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

Don't know why i didn't hink of this example earlier. Last season one bredli out of my clutch turned out striped from perfectly banded parents. Genes can mutate/morph in any species.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

And i think it is the orchid that is the hybrid :lol:


----------



## dpeica (Nov 26, 2007)

Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta:


----------



## Nephrurus (Nov 26, 2007)

No Gordo, but interestingly, that orchid specimen is a sub species! Thelymitra ixoides spp. ixoides!

*GASP*

-h


----------



## roach911 (Nov 26, 2007)

There was a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,


----------



## dpeica (Nov 26, 2007)

Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

But what did he say?


----------



## roach911 (Nov 26, 2007)

I mean it, when I analyze the stench -
To me it makes a lot of sense:
How the dreadlock rasta was the buffalo soldier,


----------



## MrSpike (Nov 26, 2007)

Just curious, would everyone be so quick to condemn these snakes and their breeder if someone like John Weigal or Peter Krauss produced them?


----------



## MrBredli (Nov 26, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> Three possibilities with the original pics.
> 1.Someone is genuinely mistaken with the history of the parents.
> 2.Diamonds can and do look like the ones pictured.
> 3.Someone is flat out telling porkies.
> ...


 
I vote for number 3! How much does DNA testing cost these days?


----------



## dpeica (Nov 26, 2007)

And he was taken from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

Said he was a buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta -
Buffalo soldier in the heart of america.


----------



## roach911 (Nov 26, 2007)

If you know your history,
Then you would know where you coming from,
Then you wouldnt have to ask me,
Who the eck do I think I am.


----------



## dpeica (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm just a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,
Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Said he was fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Said he was a buffalo soldier win the war for america.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 26, 2007)

G'day Cockney,

I have a library of over 300 herpetology based books.

A Complete Guide To Reptiles of Australia, Swan and Wilson, 2003 - "Extremely variable, with small fragmented head scales". "M.s.spilota (Diamond Python) is dark grey to black with a cream spot on most scales, and clusters of all cream or predominantly cream scales arranged to form roughly diamond-shape blotches over back and flanks". On the Morelia spilota complex, it says "It remains to be demonstrated whether these represent valid ssp. (subspecies) or mere colour variants, but collectively occupy the most diverse habitats of any Australian python". On their locality, it says the occur in Eastern NSW and North Eastern Victoria.

Pythons of Australia, Geordie Torr, 2000 - "The carpet/diamond python shows the largest degree of geographic variation of all of the Australian pythons". It also says "Although highly variable, both within and among the different subspecies, all forms are quite robust snakes with a large head that is distinct to the body". More specifically, "The most distinctive form is the diamond python. The body colour is dark grey to black, with most of the body scalesbearing a small cream spot, giving the snake a speckled pattern. Clusters of scales with more cream on them form roughly diamond-shaped blotches on the dorsal surface - some are almost black, while others are distinctly yellowish".

Snakes of Australia - Dangerous and Harmles, Mirtschin and Davis, 1992 - "Consists of the subspecies, but there is as much variation within the individual subspecies as between them" On M.s.spilota "Dorsally, dark grey to black, with most scales having some cream. Clusters of entirely or almost entirely cream scales forming approximately diamond shapes are located the full length of the body, often in longitudinal rows".


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

"roughly diamond-shape blotches over back and flanks"

Common theme isn't it.

Tell me HOW ON EARTH these snakes have diamond shaped blotches...

And Kane, absolutely I would.


----------



## scam7278 (Nov 26, 2007)

my diamond'ish intergrade


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Nice.

Maybe Shane (Nighowl) will show you his Port Mac which can EASILY pass off as a pure Diamond. Point being? Intergrades have the HUGE variation, Diamond's dont. THATS WHAT MAKE THEM DIAMONDS! lol


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> "roughly diamond-shape blotches over back and flanks"
> 
> Common theme isn't it.
> 
> ...


 

Bit of selective reading there, mate. Did you not see how all three descriptions refer to them as being "highly variable"?

Using your method, are hypo or striped Central Carpets hybrids? Swan and Wilson - M.s.bredli is rich orange-red to dark brown with numerous irregular, transversely aligned, *dark-edged* pale blotches, bands and spots".


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

I just keep repeating myself..

No there not. Because? They are known for their variability, we all know that Coastals have 500 different variations. We have NOT seen, this at all in Diamonds. There rosettes are small, diamond shaped, yes there is variability of course, but NOTHING like a McDowelli or Bredli or anything else, because that IS the difference, this is what makes them a 'Diamond', the rosettes, the spots, the pattern..

A coastal has huge variation, probably mainly to do with its range, a Diamond does not have this variation (to the extent of a Coastal) in my opinion.

We DONT get hypo Diamonds, so again, how can you compare? We don't get all the variations of the other morelia, which is why I THINK they are so special, and such a beautiful snake.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 26, 2007)

Perhaps we are beginning to get that variation .

This is becoming like a peice of paper with turn me over on both sides of it.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> I just keep repeating myself..
> 
> No there not. Because? They are known for their variability, we all know that Coastals have 500 different variations. We have NOT seen, this at all in Diamonds. There rosettes are small, diamond shaped, yes there is variability of course, but NOTHING like a McDowelli or Bredli or anything else, because that IS the difference, this is what makes them a 'Diamond', the rosettes, the spots, the pattern..
> 
> ...


 

So let me get this straight...you select a single phrase out of the published descriptions I posted, using them as evidence that Diamonds will always exhibit a diamond pattern, but when I select a phrase that says M.s.bredli exhibits a specific characteristic that we know isn't always exhibited, it is wrong? Isn't that a bit of a double standard?


----------



## MrBredli (Nov 26, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Just curious, would everyone be so quick to condemn these snakes and their breeder if someone like John Weigal or Peter Krauss produced them?


 
I would question the legitimacy of any hatchlings that did not look anything remotely similar to the parents, especially if they are to be marketed as something new and exciting with an inflated price tag. 

I don't know the history on the snakes; only one person does. You have those that believe him and those that don't. The simple fact is, those who don't believe him are not gullible and would like to see more evidence before their mind is swayed (i find it quite amusing that 'the believers' are critizing the 'non-believers' for not believing something without seeing any evidence ). Those who do believe are either very trusting (which is understandable) or very gullible. I for one am not gullible and need to see more evidence before i jump on the band wagon. If it is true then there should be plenty of supporting evidence. But i get the feeling if one were to ask for it to be shown, the response would be "We don't need to prove anything to anyone..." which i think translates to something along the lines of "We don't have any evidence, but someone said it was true so it is."

I think it is quite possible that the snakes pictured could be the parents, but if that is the case i really don't believe the snakes originated from Gosford. If it had been claimed that the parents were caught up the coast i would believe the whole story. Perhaps they did originate from further north, but were claimed to be from Gosford so they could be marketed as genuine high yellow Gosford Diamonds, rather than genuine high yellow Port Macs - a name which would have immediately slashed the value of the hatchlings in half. All would have gone well if the intergrade babies turned out like their Diamond-looking intergrade parents. Of course that is just one possible theory (not an accusation!).

So are the parents pictured 1st generation captive bred - am i right in saying that? What did their siblings look like? Have the 'wild caught' parents bred every year for the past few years? What do all these related snakes look like, and what sort of hatchies have the other F1's been throwing this season. Sorry, but i just find this all way too much to swallow, without seeing a single shread of evidence.


----------



## Oldbeard (Nov 26, 2007)

aye yi ya aye ya yi ya aye yi ya ya oi ya oi ya


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks Mr B..

I am glad I am not the only sane person here...


----------



## serpenttongue (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> I would like Serp's opinion on this though, if there is ANYONE I would listen to on Diamonds, and pure ones at that, it is him.


 
Pugs, i agree with everything you have written in this thread. You've put it all into far better words than what i could have.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

"but when I select a phrase that says M.s.bredli exhibits a specific characteristic that we know isn't always exhibited, it is wrong? Isn't that a bit of a double standard?"

Because its a HYPO. A known morph of the Bredli. Not a known morph of a Diamond, because there aren't any.

Yes it may have said that in the description sure, but since then there have been several KNOWN morphs of the Bredli, none, of the Diamond.

As Waz said 'maybe' this is the start of one, but I am certainly not convinced at all..


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

I look at it this way, at the end of the day I have some snakes that I like that were bred by a friend I trust 100%, it really doesn't matter what others think although I do welcome everyones input. 
To the people who want to be on my waiting list for hatchlings please be patient as they are only coming up to their first birthday


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Thanks Mr B..
> 
> I am glad I am not the only sane person here...


 
So everyone else here is not:shock::shock: WOW


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

Well I can't speak for anyone else but I'm completely sane and so am I.


----------



## scam7278 (Nov 26, 2007)

WOW 15 pages 215 posts of a diamond/intergrade thread and not 1 offer of popcorn??? whats the world coming too?


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

lol..

Your right Boa, it really doesn't matter what others think. But when you put them up, you knew you would get comment, maybe not 15 pages worth, but you knew there would be discussion. Healthy it has been, but still some people have just proven they really should stay out of these things..

Another note Jonno. Does a striped Bredli, a Hypo Coastal, a spotted woma look like ANY other snake other than its own species? No...

Does a striped 'Diamond' look like another? Hell YES.


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 26, 2007)

hobbo said:


> WOW 15 pages 215 posts of a diamond/intergrade thread and not 1 offer of popcorn??? whats the world coming too?


 

Popcorn is Fattening, I don't want to be called Fat and Insane


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

Pugs, I agree. I had people asking me to post updated photo's. I welcome the debate but at the same time it doesn't alter what I know in my own mind. I do understand your viewpoint and respect it.


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

That's why it's better to be schizophrenic, one can be fat and the other insane, works for me.



Jungleland said:


> Popcorn is Fattening, I don't want to be called Fat and Insane


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> lol..
> 
> Healthy it has been, but still some people have just proven they really should stay out of these
> 
> I'm surprised you did'nt, that would have save us 15 pages to read


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

:lol:


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Thank you Serp, means a lot from you. Problem is, how many people are contributing to this thread? A select few. 

The other thousands of members are all making their own opinions up behind the scenes. They read something a 14 year old wrote and decide its gospel and so on the perception and belief flows. I have photographed, well I cant even say how many snakes in the past few years, and the amount of people who have obvious intergrades sold to them as diamonds, or hybrids in their collections without knowing is appauling. Its only going to get worse with this... 

So good luck to the striped 'Diamond' owners, would I like one, sure. I certainly wouldnt call it a Diamond, probably wouldn't try and breed and and most CERTAINLY wouldn't be selling one to some d head who is going to cross it with his Jungle...


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

"I'm surprised you did'nt, that would have save us 15 pages to read"

I don't know why you come into this now? And as much as anyone's comments here are water off a ducks back to me, is there a need to add those comments?

If my thoughts have meant nothing to you, why didnt you stop 10 pages ago? Because you, like everyone else is interested in this. I have nothing against you, never have, why don't you give us your opinion?

Seems to be that there are S.. LOADS of people thinking, EXACTLY what I am saying. I will argue till I am blue in the face, believe me, its my job, but at least offer something thoughtful..


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> "I'm surprised you did'nt, that would have save us 15 pages to read"
> 
> I don't know why you come into this now? And as much as anyone's comments here are water off a ducks back to me, is there a need to add those comments?
> 
> ...


 
As i said earlier I got your point , I'm not reasoning for the animals in question but waht gets me is when someone speculate about other peoples animals.
Now You did'nt think I use enough smileys on my post?
As healthy discussion as it seems, I think you are a lttle bit uptight.
You can argue as much as you want I promise you that i'm not here to stop you.

Cheers


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Here is just 1 of GOD KNOWS how many examples, of a U.S keeper purchasing a, wait for it, CHENYEI.

Look anything like one to you? Of course not, but hey get used to these, coming to a breeder near you when we start calling these Diamonds, cause hey this is just a morph yeah?..


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 26, 2007)

Fact is the old pure diamond and intergrade discussion has been flogged to death over theyears on this forumwith many people posting pics to show what they mean just as you have pugs,i guess it's good for the new comers to the hobby to get a better understanding and i understand your reasons behind the arguement as we already have a gene pool contaminated with crosses and god knows what being called whatever people want and we don't need anymore of this in the hobby.

At the end of the day we have only the breeders word to trust and as for myself i don't know him at all and the animals look extremely suspect to me however it can be proved as N Mutton said and i would also like to see some more proof or evidence such as if the parents have bred before and if they've produced these types before as it is possible for random mutations to pop up,hypo bredli are nothing new but striped ones are so i see no reason why it an't happen in pure diamonds.It can be proved so hopefully it will be and we can put this matter to rest,that just leaves the thousands of other doubtful pure diamonds out there that will keep being passed off as pure even if they aren't and unless you can get full background histor on your diamonds you can fully trust i feel it's going to be extremely hard to tell pure from intergrade or cross as has been shown already.

One thing though i can't get past is saying that yes the parents look pure but their grandparents might or must have some intergade in them??/HUH??/If they had intergrade in them a couple of generations ago they still have it in them now and don't just suddenly change to pure and if these were in fact collected from Gosford the heart of pure diamond territory then as has been said they could just as well be mutations not like an albino which is a bit different but odd things happen just like striped bredli.I've seen a jungle i was certain was diamond but was wc and definitely not a diamond,there is also huge variability in diamonds from what i have seen many pushing the boundries of what a pure diamond is and intergrades that look pure diamond also and likewise with diamonds that can appear to be pure intergrades.I would like to see some more information on the animals in question though,that would help a lot!!!

Now where's the popcorn and billy i'm hungry and straight,that's just not on:lol:


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Yes I am getting uptight, spot on. Because it 5 years time when every second thread is a "What type of snake did I buy?" Or, "I think I bought a Hybrid?" or, "The breeder told me it was pure.." ETC ETC 

We can all look back can't we...


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Yes I am getting uptight, spot on. Because it 5 years time when every second thread is a "What type of snake did I buy?" Or, "I think I bought a Hybrid?" or, "The breeder told me it was pure.." ETC ETC
> 
> We can all look back can't we...[/quote}
> 
> ...


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

"One thing though i can't get past is saying that yes the parents look pure but their grandparents might or must have some intergade in them??/HUH??/If they had intergrade in them a couple of generations ago they still have it in them now and don't just suddenly change to pure and if these were in fact collected from Gosford the heart of pure diamond territory then as has been said they could just as well be mutations not like an albino which is a bit different but odd things happen just like striped bredli.I've seen a jungle i was certain was diamond but was wc and definitely not a diamond,there is also huge variability in diamonds from what i have seen many pushing the boundries of what a pure diamond is and intergrades that look pure diamond also and likewise with diamonds that can appear to be pure intergrades."

I didn't say they all of a sudden came pure then intergrade again, they have ALWAYS had intergrade in them, meaning even though they may 'look' pure, I still suspect they are intergrades. Thats just me.

Secondly, Gosford the heart of Diamond territory? Since when? Not even close IMO mate.

At the end of the day, again, we are obviously going to agree to disagree. As I am not changing my opinion, and neither are 'the believers'. But, in 5 years lets take a look back hey.


----------



## MrBredli (Nov 26, 2007)

Browns, intergrades are known to throw a whole range of patterns in one clutch; Diamonds aren't (not in terms of patterns such as we see in this thread). I could believe that the two 'parents' pictured were the most Diamond-looking of an entire F1 intergrade clutch, and that they threw the clutch they are claimed to have thrown. But i can't believe 2 pure Diamonds would produce offspring like that, not unless i see some evidence to support it.


----------



## Oldbeard (Nov 26, 2007)

I just liked the song so I was singing the next line . I thought we were having a sing along instead of popcorn for a change.:lol::lol::lol: Yes I am insane.
But I must say everything that pugs is saying makes sense and I would think along the same lines until I had some solid proof of lineage


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 26, 2007)

I agree i would like to see further proof also which hasn't been forthcoming.If they have bred before,how many times and which generations etc produced the animals in question.It was said the rest of the siblings were classic looking diamonds but that's about it.As for Gosford not being pure diamond locality are you telling me it's not?It may not be right in the guts of it but still well within range of pure diamonds is it not?

Like i've said if these were shown to me and my opinion asked i'd say intergrade or cross al the way and that's what they look like,i'm just not so quick to disqualifythe fact they may be a random mutaton which i would like to see more proof on also!!

Now pass the billy:lol:


----------



## PhilK (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> The other thousands of members are all making their own opinions up behind the scenes. *1. They read something a 14 year old wrote and decide its gospel and so on the perception and belief flows*. I have photographed, well I cant even say how many snakes in the past few years, and the amount of people who have obvious intergrades sold to them as diamonds, or hybrids in their collections without knowing is appauling. Its only going to get worse with this...
> 
> *2. So good luck to the striped 'Diamond'* *owners, would I like one, sure. I certainly wouldnt call it a Diamond*, probably wouldn't try and breed and and most CERTAINLY wouldn't be selling one to some d head who is going to cross it with his Jungle...


 
1. How do I know you aren't a 14 year old? (I know you're not, but my point stands.)

2. Are you saying a striped Diamond isn't a diamond....? 
Let's go real basic here. Bredli are defined by their irregular blotches (as are coastals etc).. if it is a striped bredli or striped coastal, it is still a coastal or bredli. 
But if a diamond is a striped diamond it isn't a diamond? I know I'm chiming in late but I'm thoroughly confused.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

I suggest you read the whole thread.. You keep bringing points up already discussed.

1. I am 24, 6'2", 100kg. Brown hair blue eyes, like long walks on the beach and throwing darts at my Kevin07 Dartboard..

2. I have already written my say on that. But again, a striped bredli looks like? A striped Bredli... A striped 'Diamond' looks like?? An Intergrade! (Or even Coastal).

Point? Stripes in coastals and bredli are becoming common, and they do not change what the particular snake looks like at all. A striped jungle is a striped jungle. A striped Diamond, IMO there is, and never has been any such thing.

I freeeeeely admit this is ONLY my opinion (supported by several MUCH more experienced herpers both on here and not.) And if I/we are wrong so be it. That wont change at all however, what impact this can, is, and will have on the hobby.


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm 6'4" and a fraction over 100kgs, my doctor reckons I am still 5 kgs overweight although I have lost 7 already. I hate rabbit food.


----------



## PhilK (Nov 26, 2007)

Since when do people I.D on patterns etc? I always thought that was the most unreliable way to I.D anything. We've got to the point where we can breed BHPs without black heads.. I'm pretty sure we can join some rosettes into a line on a diamond.

As for there never being such a thing.. There was never such thing as a car either, but people made that. Never such thing as an Australian Stock Horse, but people bred them...

EDIT: just 'cause you say you aren't 14 it doesn't make it so, on the net. I could say I was Mel Brookes.


----------



## indicus (Nov 26, 2007)

You've made some good points Pug's and others..... and i cant say i disagree/or agree with all you've said...However; keep in mind mate; your just having a guess at whether the pic's Boa posted are actually intergrades....understandably they do appear very odd as far as Diamonds go IMO; but i've not done the hard yards to really comment (nice animals regardless Boa )
The best to comment on such animals; is someone who has/ or spends considerable time in the field looking at this form of python.....even then; i myself have found; you'll always come across something that throws you; just when you think your onto it; an odd cape york or jungle displays pattern or colouration that's really quite different.....I often say; the more we learn; the more we realise we don't know....(keeps it interesting)
Either way; forget what your mates/experts tell you; put the time in the field; and see for yourself....
i think you will soon realise; it's not so black and white.....good luck in your endeavours.


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks mate, yeah they are beautiful and getting more and more yellow with each shed.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Yes browns its in there. JUST in my opinion, but apparently something like Forster is there limits... Which would be FAR more likely of where these animals originated, and a place I don't think should be included, as they are much different from the Southern Spilota Spilota.


----------



## Geklor (Nov 26, 2007)

Now pass the billy:lol:[/quote]

I would but you live so far away come to sydney and i can help ya out


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Inny, thanks for the comments, although I have not spent a number of years herping.. Hey some people have REAL jobs lol.. I HAVE done a little myself, but not just that, at one stage almost every Diamond that was rescued in Sydney area, I photographed.

I think that gives me a slight edge on the other less experienced people here. So I have, spent time looking at them.

As for mates/experts, I respect a lot of people who talk about this species, 1 being Serpentongue, another being Pythoninfinate, who rarely comes here anymore (who can blame him) and you know as I do, both have considerable amounts of experience in Spilota spilota, and the Morelia Complex overall. J has 40 years.. I wouldn't say he is someone who hasn't got some idea of what he is talking about..

I know its not all black and gold. Yes, I admit there will be variations, but not to that extent.. if there was a stripey one thrown in a whole normal clutch, maybe it was some sort of fluke morph, but when so many come out like that, it SCREAMS another influence.. Intergrades can produce huge variation in clutches. 

Here are 2 from the same clutch. Intergrades can do this, Diamonds, dont. You take the Diamond looking one, and put it over another PURE diamond, what you going to get? Probably some of the snakes in this thread.


----------



## nightowl (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Nice.
> 
> Maybe Shane (Nighowl) will show you his Port Mac which can EASILY pass off as a pure Diamond. Point being? Intergrades have the HUGE variation, Diamond's dont. THATS WHAT MAKE THEM DIAMONDS! lol



Well, didn't I leave it a bit late to enter this thread! :lol:

True Steve, PMC's have a huge variation in colour and pattern. Here is a few pics of locale specific PMC's...

Port Macquarie






Port Macquarie





Port Macquarie





Port Macquarie





Kempsey





and a Gosford Diamond





I also believe in diamonds having a particular look about them that separates them from other Morelia. If it looks like a diamond, it is. If it doesn't have that 'typical' diamond markings then I wouldn't class it as a diamond.

Just my 2 cents....


----------



## MrSpike (Nov 26, 2007)

pugsly said:


> They read something a 14 year old wrote and decide its gospel and so on the perception and belief flows.



I'm 16 not 14 Pugsly :lol:


----------



## indicus (Nov 26, 2007)

Ok, lets not get personal....
Sure; I really do need to get a hair cut and a real job; your starting to sound like my mother :lol:
I understand what your getting at; and you may very well be right ?; but i will say; "never say never"....never underestimate what nature will throw at you .....it really can be surprising at times; never ceases to amaze me


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 26, 2007)

Few more Port Mac intergrades and that's what they should be labelled as,Port Macs,Kempseys,Dorrigos etc,same as different local jungles.


----------



## Retic (Nov 26, 2007)

I like that middle one Browns, very nice.


----------



## PhilK (Nov 26, 2007)

That first pic of nightowl's looks just like a diamond...


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks Shane, and nice snakes there Browns, I think intergrades are some of the most beautiful snakes in Oz, there colour, and common STRIPES lol.. along with the amazing variety makes them amazing IMO. 

Inny, you may be right also, time will tell I guess. But for now, I will stick to what I have said, and I will be first to eat my words if I am proved wrong!


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Spot on Phil! Which is my whole point! Just cause the parents LOOK pure in this situation, means nothing..


----------



## bigguy (Nov 26, 2007)

I will have to back Pugs on this one It is not uncommon to find striped Carpets in the wild, particulary Coastals, Jungles, Cape Yorks and even the odd Bredls. Intergrades found in mid coast NSW decending from their Carpet ancesters also commonly show striping specially at their northern range. However this trait has never been seen in Diamonds. 

I have lived at Gosford almost all my life and have literally seen thousands of Diamonds over the years both in collections and the wild. I have probably bred more Diamonds than anyone in Australia. I know most long term herpers in NSW who have had anything to do with Diamonds. And I can assure you there has never been any record of a pure Diamond the like that Dan has breed last season.

IMO one of the parents was either a intergrade or a intergrade crossed with a Diamond. This would make the young hybrids, not intergrades.

To try and answer or correct some statements I will ad this.

Gosford is NOT the centre of Diamonds, in fact it is only about 80 to 100klm's south of pure Diamonds northern border.

I classify any intergrades between 2 subspecies(and there are many) as an animal that share charactoristics of both subspecies. NSW mid coast intergrades are normally easily recognised when seen live, however can sometimes be trickier to detect in pics as you can not see the entire animal or its true colouration in most cases.

Pure Diamonds on the other hand should have no Carpet markings or colouration. The most important charactoristic of the Diamond for which they were named is a yellowish spot on nearly every upper body scale, with the exception of around the rosettes. Sometimes this spot can be so small that its hard to detect(like Wollongong slug monsters) or can take up nearly all the scale(like a high yellow). Rossettes are optional, some dont have any, some do, but they are never very large like a Carpet marking.

Confusing descriptions in books are easy to explain as most authors from the past(and these are continually referenced too) thought intergrades were in fact Diamonds, hence Diamonds being found as far noth as Grafton. These same authors also believed that all Carpets and Childrens were the same species, and that freshwater turtles were toitoises. The point here is times change, we learn and correct ourselves and should not reference out of date data from old books. Even some modern day authors just reword old data and fail to update. Pitty.

Dans are not the only suspect Diamonds I have seen lately. There are others being bred outside of NSW and their breeders genuinely believe they are pure. But unless they actually collected their breeding stock from the wild than they really can NEVER give 100% gaurentees of their lines.

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, both parents of Dans young have been shown as high yellows, yet Dan sent me a pic of the female months ago and she looked just like a standard Diamond. They was also a wild caught intergrade being kept by dan at the same time. Food for thought.


----------



## PhilK (Nov 26, 2007)

But buy your argument pugsly, it has all the markings of a diamond so it couldn't be anything else as nothing else looks like a diamond?

Colour me confused!


----------



## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

THANK YOU BIGGUY!!! 

Geeeezuss.. 

Phil... Yes it has (not all) some of the markings of a pure diamond, but the part "so it couldn't be anything else as nothing else looks like a diamond?" is wrong. I never said nothing else looks like a Diamond, I said Diamonds that look like something else, are probably the something else!

Just because an intergrade looks like a Diamond means nothing, its very common. Thats what makes an intergrade an intergrade, the variability, in the pure Diamonds you just dont have the same or even close variability..

PLEASE tell me you are getting this...


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 26, 2007)

Even the third one could pass as pure if you ask me???Very good point philk,it looks like a diamond so it must be a diamond but if it loks like an intergrade it couldn't possibly be a diamond???


----------



## pugsly (Nov 27, 2007)

Yep thats it. Because thats the difference! Why am I the only one getting this... Intergrades have a huge variation, some look like coastals, some like Diamonds. Thats WHY there intergrades. Some resemble very closely like pure Diamonds.

A Diamond can IN SOME ways look like an intergrade, but not when it comes to the unique patterning. Thats WHY THERE DIAMONDS...

I owned 2 of those snakes shown, and can guarentee the 3rd one is NOT a Diamond.


----------



## nightowl (Nov 27, 2007)

You can stop banging your head against the wall now Steve! :lol: 

Some good points have been made on both sides here but it makes sense that diamonds are called that because of their pattern and the consistency of that pattern throughout the diamond range as opposed to, say, the 'Intergrades' variety of markings throughout their range.

I think some people may have what they think is a 'pure' diamond (even if it is WC) but could very well be an 'intergrade'. Then when they breed and produce certain patterns they are promoted as a new morph. For example, I could sell the python in that first photo as a diamond, then someone breeds it with their diamond and suddenly stripes and large blotches are being produced! 

Also, just think of how many people get on here saying their snake escaped, plus the people that don't admit it! Now, sometimes these snakes are found but others aren't. What if someon's 'intergrade' escaped around Gosford, Sydney or even Wollongong? That 'intergrade' would then possibly breed with wild diamonds and produce hybrids in the wild. It doesn't mean that it is a 'natural' morph because the progeny were a result of someones insecure enclosure!

Finally, IMO the only reason someone would want to class a particular 'intergrade' as a diamond is money. If 'intergrades' were pulling the amount diamonds are we probably wouldn't see this argument as often.


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 27, 2007)

Gee hasn't this thread suffered a quick painless death.Thanks Bob :lol:


----------



## Retic (Nov 27, 2007)

I think to be honest it has been terminally ill for sometime now


----------



## herpie boy (Nov 27, 2007)

these threads are interesting to an extent, some good points have been made , but really the whole intergrade topic is as much a dead end issue as politics and religion....... enjoy


----------



## MrBredli (Nov 27, 2007)

bigguy said:


> Just to throw some fuel on the fire, both parents of Dans young have been shown as high yellows, yet Dan sent me a pic of the female months ago and she looked just like a standard Diamond. They was also a wild caught intergrade being kept by dan at the same time. Food for thought.


 
*Ka-Boom!!* :shock:


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 27, 2007)

Yes well there you go,seems a bit sus to me that's for sure.Don't think i'd be trusting this breeder juding on those comments from Bob,sorry but that just goes to show how much bull**** some people will tell to sell their animals,not right at all imo!!!


----------



## Retic (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm not quite sure I understand that, from what I understand the photo posted wasn't one of the parents from last season but is a gravid female he as this season. It certainly isn't the snake I saw last season. The fact that he had an intergrade means nothing, that is like saying anyone who has both intergrades and Diamonds can not be trusted.


----------



## cockney red (Nov 27, 2007)

*Ka-Boom 4 sure. Tip of the Iceberg!!!!!:|*


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 27, 2007)

As far as i was aware going on what's been written the pics posted were the parents of the animals in question,if not why were they even posted?

The intergrade being kept means nothing,i've had both at one time,doesn't mean i bred them together either so that means nothing however the mother being a completely different snake yet the pics posted saying they are the parents certainly is confusing,would be nice to see it cleared up if possible??


----------



## Retic (Nov 27, 2007)

The photo wasn't posted by the breeder, Jonno posted the photo of the female and maybe he got it confused with the gravid one from this season, I have no idea really but you are condemning the breeder because of something out of his control.


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 27, 2007)

Bob certainly cleared up something that even blind Freddy could see from the pics posted.I guess now someone will pop up and try and belittle his experience.


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 27, 2007)

boa said:


> The photo wasn't posted by the breeder, Jonno posted the photo of the female and maybe he got it confused with the gravid one from this season, I have no idea really but you are condemning the breeder because of something out of his control.



So is the gravid one from this season the mother of the animals in question?If so has it bred before producing these odd offspring?

Sorry no disrespect meant to the breeder,it just reads the wrong way suggesting that thepics posted are of the parents,otherwise what is the point of posting them,this would be a good reason to clear this up so it doesn't come back on the breeder i would think??


----------



## MrBredli (Nov 27, 2007)

boa said:


> The fact that he had an intergrade means nothing, that is like saying anyone who has both intergrades and Diamonds can not be trusted.


 
Not exactly, but it does raise a lot of eyebrows when the person is selling 'pure Diamonds' that look a hell of a lot like intergrades.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 27, 2007)

I do understand the uncertainty surrounding these animals, especially considering they resemble a colouration common in a locality of Morelia few hundred kilometres away. But at the end of the day, those of us who know Dan, know that he wouldn't lie, and has no reason to lie. He didn't attach an artificially high price tag to his animals, the vast majority went to mates, and if they were Intergrades, they would have gone just ask quick. But, at the end of the day, they have originated from PURE Diamond Pythons. 

The photo of the female is one that is presently gravid to the bright yellow male ("The most brilliant Diamond I have ever seen" - John Weigel). I am unsure of whether it was the girl used last year, and Dan isn't exactly in a position at the moment to be answering such questions.

What about Snake Ranch's or Matt's line of striped Diamonds? They are far more striped than Dans, yet barely rate a mention? They are from different line/s, also, so it shows this isn't a once off thing?


----------



## NickM (Nov 27, 2007)

all this talk maade me want to post a pic of one of my stiped Bredli hatchlings from this year.

Nick


----------



## Retic (Nov 27, 2007)

That's a spectacular Bredli Nick.


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 27, 2007)

NickM (qoute)all this talk maade me want to post a pic of one of my stiped Bredli hatchlings from this year.

Nick

That's not a bredli, bredli's don't have stripe

Regardless very nice animal for sureJK

Thanks for posting!

Joel


----------



## Retic (Nov 27, 2007)

Don't start them off again Joel :lol:


----------



## Jungleland (Nov 27, 2007)

boa said:


> Don't start them off again Joel :lol:


 

awwwww Why can't I have some fun????:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Nov 27, 2007)

Gawd... from one site to another... You can lead a horse to water, but...

Jonno, "intergrades" occur within 60-100km from Gosford, and "intergrade" looking pythons probably closer than that, so I don't know where you get the "hundreds of kilometres" notion of separation... Of course, within that 50-100km overlap you will get influences of both. It just depends what you want to call them.

Scientifically, there will be, somewhere, a recognized DESCRIPTION of what defines a diamond python, and THIS IS INDEPENDENT OF WHATEVER HERP HOBBYISTS WANT TO BELIEVE... Those snakes of boas exhibit no characteristics of diamond pythons at all. I can't be bothered with this any more, but someone should contact the reptile man at the Australian Museum, ask which taxonomist's description they currently recognise (this changes as species are revised) and ask for the scientific description they currently accept as valid. Included in this description will be references to colour and pattern, with an indication of what regarded as unique to diamond pythons.

That is where the discussion should end. If you dispute the fact of that description, then you should do a crash course in taxonomy and revise the Morelia spilota ssp. yourself.

Jamie.


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 28, 2007)

Hi Jamie,



Pythoninfinite said:


> "intergrades" occur within 60-100km from Gosford, and "intergrade" looking pythons probably closer than that, so I don't know where you get the "hundreds of kilometres" notion of separation... Of course, within that 50-100km overlap you will get influences of both.



You've given an indication of where 'integrade influence' fades out in the phenotype, but do you know where it ceases to be present in the genotype, if at all?



Pythoninfinite said:


> Scientifically, there will be, somewhere, a recognized DESCRIPTION of what defines a diamond python... but someone should contact the reptile man at the Australian Museum, ask which taxonomist's description they currently recognise (this changes as species are revised) and ask for the scientific description they currently accept as valid. Included in this description will be references to colour and pattern, with an indication of what regarded as unique to diamond pythons.



Unfortunately for this discussion, taxonomists don't deal with morphs. e.g. you won't find a taxonomic description for an olive python anywhere that describes them as whitish snakes, yet whitish olives exist. Besides, morphological descriptions (and even genotypic descriptions) for sub-species of reptiles are flimsy at best and would contribute little to this sort of discussion.

Matt


----------



## pugsly (Nov 28, 2007)

"I can't be bothered with this any more"

I hear ya sister...


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 28, 2007)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gawd... from one site to another... You can lead a horse to water, but...
> 
> Jonno, "intergrades" occur within 60-100km from Gosford, and "intergrade" looking pythons probably closer than that, so I don't know where you get the "hundreds of kilometres" notion of separation... Of course, within that 50-100km overlap you will get influences of both. It just depends what you want to call them.
> 
> ...



Just replying to your second paragraph regarding the distance of intergrades from Gosford i find it very hard to believe with what you have said that nobody has ever seen an odd ball diamond in the Gosford area,not one???

Come on pugs why stop now,i just found my billy and it's getting much more interesting dude:lol:


----------



## bigguy (Nov 28, 2007)

Browns, the intergrade zone appears to end basically along a line stretching from Barrington/Glouster through to Karuah and then to Port Stephens. The majority of specimens found from these areas show small amounts of intergrade in them. However, some are seen which look close to pure.But below this line you only see pure Diamonds showing no signs of Carpet influence.

As I state previously, as far as I am aware NO ONE has seen any oddball speciemens in the Gosford area, or for that matter anywhewre in southern NSW.

As for the snakeranch line, I can remember that add for that snake and it was a intergrade from up the coast. John asked me about it prior to him purchasing it. As for Matts,which are absolutly gorgous, unless he collected them himself from known Diamond areas he can not be sure whats behind his lines.


----------



## pugsly (Nov 28, 2007)

Spot on Bigguy..

Port Stephens area has a heap of intergrade in them in my opinion, well at least the ones I have photographed from there all displayed it.

As for snake ranch's 'striped diamond'. Did anyone actually believe it was pure? Come on...

Here is the facts:

1. In .... years, after ........ people breeding Diamonds, NOT ONE came up with stripes or anything like it. 
2. In all the literature, although they describe some variation, they all indicate 'diamond shape rosettes' NOT STRIPES
3. All of a sudden, 'Wild caught Gosfords' turn up... Bob explained he has lived there for .. years and not one he had seen showed ANY stripes.
4. Intergrades are KNOWN to have huge variation, and very commonly STRIPES.

Make up your own minds.. But there are some very gulible people out there.. I don't care where they said the parents or grandparents originated quite frankly. I have heard that much B.S in this hobby from so many people that nothing surprises me anymore.. 

Facts are facts.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 28, 2007)

And speculation is speculation!


----------



## pugsly (Nov 28, 2007)

No..

Speculation is warranted. From the facts.


----------



## waruikazi (Nov 28, 2007)

So your speculation isn't speculation?


----------



## cockney red (Nov 28, 2007)

*Their has been alot of input on this thread from some seriously experienced Diamond keepers and breeders on the not seen alien diamonds, in the known range of true Diamonds. This supports my paltry 10 yrs experience on the Central Coast, & Sydneys Northern Beaches. Diamond Pythons South of Newcastle...ish, have no characteristics of Coastals whatsoever. True efficianados of DP,S know this. So give it a rest hybrid fanciers, cos thats exactly what they look like, and thats what they are.:|*


----------



## Retic (Nov 28, 2007)

Because you're on APS 



Jungleland said:


> awwwww Why can't I have some fun????:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Oldbeard (Nov 28, 2007)

Can I just say the person who started the buffalo soldier song is pure:evil:. I haven't been able to get that song out of my head.:x:shock:


----------



## jamey (Nov 29, 2007)

*diamonds*

If there were both "typical" and abberant hatchlings in this clutch,could we see some pics of the "typical" siblings?I would really like to see them for comparison.If they have already been posted I missed them.It would be nice to see them side by side,to see the variability and know if the pairing produced "typical" appearing diamonds with rosettes.
Jamey


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 29, 2007)

bigguy said:


> As for Matts,which are absolutly gorgous, unless he collected them himself from known Diamond areas he can not be sure whats behind his lines.



No arguments there Bob. Interesting debate none-the-less. It's pity people get frustrated when confronted with an opposing view.

Matt


----------



## MrSpike (Dec 21, 2007)

bigguy said:


> Just to throw some fuel on the fire, both parents of Dans young have been shown as high yellows, yet Dan sent me a pic of the female months ago and she looked just like a standard Diamond. They was also a wild caught intergrade being kept by dan at the same time. Food for thought.



Daniel says...
The snake was a "suspected intergrade" caught on a rescue. I had it for two days in a tub and it was in my house away from my collection. That "suspected intergrade" was also a female and certainly was not the snake that produced the eggs.


----------



## Retic (Dec 21, 2007)

Now come on, that doesn't rule it out though, these snakes are pretty sneaky. Of course the fact that it was a female does really throw a spanner in the works :lol:



MrSpike said:


> Daniel says...
> The snake was a "suspected intergrade" caught on a rescue. I had it for two days in a tub and it was in my house away from my collection. That "suspected intergrade" was also a female and certainly was not the snake that produced the eggs.


----------



## PimmsPythons (Dec 21, 2007)

this photo was taken of a wild diamond on a mates property just south of terrigal.no stripe but it has a thin banded pattern not like "traditional gosford" style,yet it is in the heart of gosford territory.is it still a Gosford?


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

That would be a Terrigal Diamond, is Terrigal near Gosford ? A Gosford Diamond only applies to a Diamond found in Gosford, it isn't a 'type' of Diamond.


----------



## Australis (Dec 22, 2007)

boa said:


> That would be a Terrigal Diamond, is Terrigal near Gosford ? A Gosford Diamond only applies to a Diamond found in Gosford, it isn't a 'type' of Diamond.



Well for those who dont know, Terrigal is within Gosford "Shire".

So these unusual looking Diamonds are from "Gosford" Boa?
As your reasoning would call for a name change if both parents 
where collected elsewhere, like forresters beach?
As was mentioned on another forum.


----------



## BT (Dec 22, 2007)

terrigal is about 50km from gosford,
that "terrigal" diamond look was different to the ones i find in lake maquarie. the ones i find have smaller diamonds on them.


----------



## PimmsPythons (Dec 22, 2007)

terrigal is only about 20km away from gosford.he lives close to Bouddi national park.


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

Well strictly speaking I suppose it would be a Terrigal Diamond. Diamonds do seem to 'inherit' the Gosford tag regardless of where they originate as the area is associated with bright high yellow Diamonds. In actual fact it is just a Diamond, the same as a coastal found on the Sunshine Coast is just a coastal. 
Nice looking snake though with very obvious banding.


----------



## blackghost (Dec 22, 2007)

Personally, I think a so called striped Diamond, looks nothing like a traditional Diamond at all. 
You can add genes, locality, parents etc, etc, etc, but at the end of the day, they just don't look like 
they should even be named a Diamond!

Remember...this is my own opinion.

blackghost


----------



## hugsta (Dec 22, 2007)

That's actually a very nice "Port Mac Carpet". ot that other word that people don't like to a inter........something or other.


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

Wouldn't that be like calling a Tully Jungle a Rockhampton carpet ?


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

I totally agree, it's like having a striped spotted python 



blackghost said:


> Personally, I think a so called striped Diamond, looks nothing like a traditional Diamond at all.
> You can add genes, locality, parents etc, etc, etc, but at the end of the day, they just don't look like
> they should even be named a Diamond!
> 
> ...


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



hugsta said:


> That's actually a very nice "Port Mac Carpet". ot that other word that people don't like to a inter........something or other.



Come on hugsta and blackghost stop picking on boa,after all hes not hurting anyone,let him wake up by himself,why spoil his enyoyment,there there boa daddy zulu has a surprise for you!! look another wittle baby stiped diamond you can have a little friend for Mr stripey wipey from Mission beachy weachy!!


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

Huh ? Didn't even realise anyone was picking on me. Makes no difference to me what others think of the snakes. I posted photo's because lots of people appreciate them, if not it's no big deal.
That's a nice snake by the way. Isn't Mission Beach in FNQ ?


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Stripey*

OK its a coastal carpet but boa wont know the difference,so there aint no harm done,just trying to lift his spirits hes posted on every forum world wide he desperately needs believers,we should be compassionate and go along with it he is a fellow human being sharing the planet,i propose we have the "boa striped pure diamond of the year award"


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

You really are a strange man.


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



boa said:


> Huh ? Didn't even realise anyone was picking on me. Makes no difference to me what others think of the snakes. I posted photo's because lots of people appreciate them, if not it's no big deal.
> That's a nice snake by the way. Isn't Mission Beach in FNQ ?



Hello brother boa! yeh mission beach is in far north qld,hows that diamond going any more pictures of the lovely animal,its getting more diamond everyday,very nice snake!!!!!!!


----------



## Ryan93 (Dec 22, 2007)

yo i reckon da snake is a realy beautifull snake. but no offence it has wrecked da nature of the diamonds and the coastals. but other than that it is a reali nice snake


----------



## GSXR_Boy (Dec 22, 2007)

Someones been into the christmas cheer?


----------



## Ryan93 (Dec 22, 2007)

who


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



boa said:


> You really are a strange man.



Thanks boa,LOLz ide be worried if i was a strange kind of woman Haha


----------



## Ryan93 (Dec 22, 2007)

zulu said:


> Thanks boa,LOLz ide be worried if i was a strange kind of woman Haha


 
lol man u got summ funnie comebacks but dude boa does need a break


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



Ryan93 said:


> lol man u got summ funnie comebacks but dude boa does need a break



I think the tide is shifting,i can see a striped diamond in every house hold,its catching on by jingo


----------



## Ryan93 (Dec 22, 2007)

zulu said:


> I think the tide is shifting,i can see a striped diamond in every house hold,its catching on by jingo


 
if it was up to me i would have 1 aswell but i would prefer the original species instead


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

Here's a photo I took of one of them today just for you Zulu 
This forum would be even worse without characters like you on here, there are far too many who take themselves and everything else way too seriously.


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



Ryan93 said:


> if it was up to me i would have 1 aswell but i would prefer the original species instead



But they come from pure diamonds ! Ive been trained well HaHa


----------



## Ryan93 (Dec 22, 2007)

boa said:


> Here's a photo I took of one of them today just for you Zulu
> This forum would be even worse without characters like you on here, there are far too many who take themselves and everything else way too seriously.


 
yo zulu u know you want 1 ot these reptiles. you gotta edmit it is a beautifull snake


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



boa said:


> Here's a photo I took of one of them today just for you Zulu
> This forum would be even worse without characters like you on here, there are far too many who take themselves and everything else way too seriously.



Dam boa that snake is looking really ugly!! ile take it of ya hands so you can concentrate more on coastal carpets or garden skink mutations !!


----------



## Ryan93 (Dec 22, 2007)

lol u aint get da beautie in the snake do u zulu. is it to nice for you or somethin


----------



## herpie boy (Dec 22, 2007)

one of the most, if not the most beautiful diamond i have ever seen,


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*



Ryan93 said:


> lol u aint get da beautie in the snake do u zulu. is it to nice for you or somethin



LOLz i get d beautie in d snake Haha ITs HOT LOOKING !!!! Haha Morelia Hunter would get D stiffy over that one BRa  i mean excited over the beautiful diamond from pure parents, ime brainwashed HAHA !!! ;


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks, it just gets better every shed.



herpie boy said:


> one of the most, if not the most beautiful diamond i have ever seen,


----------



## Ryan93 (Dec 22, 2007)

heheheheh smart 1 hahaha im laughin dude forget about it u aint get nothin we egmire these pictures of snakes cause they are our dream but u aint have 2 put smrt *** comments on some1s blog


----------



## zulu (Dec 22, 2007)

*re Striped*

I eggmire that snake bro, yo yo,give d boa a go ! :lol:


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

You are 100% right there 



cockney red said:


> But its still what it is.:|


----------



## cockney red (Dec 22, 2007)

*oooh..you word twisting little sausage. But it is what it aint even..






*


boa said:


> You are 100% right there


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

Again...........you are spot on.........or are you ?


----------



## scam7278 (Dec 22, 2007)

lol this thing is still going?


----------



## cockney red (Dec 22, 2007)

*You're playing with the mind of somebody who has barely learned to play with himself.:shock: Or has he.:lol:*







boa said:


> Again...........you are spot on.........or are you ?


----------



## sid94 (Dec 22, 2007)

hi nice pics


----------



## Retic (Dec 22, 2007)

A battle of wits is best not fought by 2 combatants with only half the necessary weaponry. 



cockney red said:


> *You're playing with the mind of somebody who has barely learned to play with himself.:shock: Or has he.:lol:*


----------



## cockney red (Dec 22, 2007)

*Weaponry is in the eye of the beholder.*


----------



## richardsc (Dec 25, 2007)

wow nice intergrades,someone said earlier that why can they be pure if the breeder believes them to be pure,um some people believe in santa,so that possom runnin across my roof last night must have been a fat old bugger with a white beard i assume,can the breeder say 100 percent definate that theres not a skerrick of intergrade blood in his striped diamonds,no havnt seen that,they look like striped intergrades to me,to all the doubters,say someone breeds intergrades and they shoot out a couple of pure looking ones in a clutch and someone sells them as pure,and believes there pure,are they pure,well pure striped hybrids i guess,i think they look great by the way guys,nothing against them,but intergrades none the less,maybe we need to know the history of the line,how many generations have the breeders bred,where did they get there stock,where did the next person and so on,i find it hard to believe,also another point that caught my attention,all the spilotas are the same,hahahahahaha,sounds like something people with albino darwins would say to warrant no abuse for crossing to make albino jungle darwins ect ect,there still spilota,there pure albino jungle darwins,honest they are,the breeder believes they are,so there gotta be pure,um i might start a new thread,i wanna show some lovely pics of my yellow chested eastern water dragons,there pure,not a gram of gippsland in them i swear.
ps,all the coastal lovers that said diamonds dont do much for them but they love those pure striped diamonds,um,im not sure where u get that from,bwwaaaahbwaaaaah


----------



## MrSpike (Dec 25, 2007)

Boa's yearlings, are grandchildren of w/c animals from Diamond territory, near Gosford.

And people complain about the grammer some kids have on here...



richardsc said:


> wow nice intergrades,someone said earlier that why can they be pure if the breeder believes them to be pure,um some people believe in santa,so that possom runnin across my roof last night must have been a fat old bugger with a white beard i assume,can the breeder say 100 percent definate that theres not a skerrick of intergrade blood in his striped diamonds,no havnt seen that,they look like striped intergrades to me,to all the doubters,say someone breeds intergrades and they shoot out a couple of pure looking ones in a clutch and someone sells them as pure,and believes there pure,are they pure,well pure striped hybrids i guess,i think they look great by the way guys,nothing against them,but intergrades none the less,maybe we need to know the history of the line,how many generations have the breeders bred,where did they get there stock,where did the next person and so on,i find it hard to believe,also another point that caught my attention,all the spilotas are the same,hahahahahaha,sounds like something people with albino darwins would say to warrant no abuse for crossing to make albino jungle darwins ect ect,there still spilota,there pure albino jungle darwins,honest they are,the breeder believes they are,so there gotta be pure,um i might start a new thread,i wanna show some lovely pics of my yellow chested eastern water dragons,there pure,not a gram of gippsland in them i swear.
> ps,all the coastal lovers that said diamonds dont do much for them but they love those pure striped diamonds,um,im not sure where u get that from,bwwaaaahbwaaaaah


----------



## zulu (Dec 25, 2007)

*re Striped*



richardsc said:


> wow nice intergrades,someone said earlier that why can they be pure if the breeder believes them to be pure,um some people believe in santa,so that possom runnin across my roof last night must have been a fat old bugger with a white beard i assume,can the breeder say 100 percent definate that theres not a skerrick of intergrade blood in his striped diamonds,no havnt seen that,they look like striped intergrades to me,to all the doubters,say someone breeds intergrades and they shoot out a couple of pure looking ones in a clutch and someone sells them as pure,and believes there pure,are they pure,well pure striped hybrids i guess,i think they look great by the way guys,nothing against them,but intergrades none the less,maybe we need to know the history of the line,how many generations have the breeders bred,where did they get there stock,where did the next person and so on,i find it hard to believe,also another point that caught my attention,all the spilotas are the same,hahahahahaha,sounds like something people with albino darwins would say to warrant no abuse for crossing to make albino jungle darwins ect ect,there still spilota,there pure albino jungle darwins,honest they are,the breeder believes they are,so there gotta be pure,um i might start a new thread,i wanna show some lovely pics of my yellow chested eastern water dragons,there pure,not a gram of gippsland in them i swear.
> ps,all the coastal lovers that said diamonds dont do much for them but they love those pure striped diamonds,um,im not sure where u get that from,bwwaaaahbwaaaaah


Come on richard thats not the spirit,think of something nice to say like, " is that a stripe or are you just happy to see me" "has anyone lost an ugly old carpet,its got in my cage and is chocas up my pure stripey diamond" :lol:


----------



## cockney red (Dec 27, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Boa's yearlings, are grandchildren of w/c animals from Diamond territory, near Gosford.
> 
> *Wish someone would shoot that Groundhog.*


----------



## repam (Jan 15, 2008)

*striped?*

This little boy is a sibling of the striped diamonds bred by Daniel. Does anyone think this is a hybrid. Daniel has told me there pure and we have no need to doubt his word. We think our little diamond is pure gold.

Cheers Mark
p.s i hope iposted the pic alright


----------



## callith (Jan 15, 2008)

Very jealous


----------



## crush the turtle (Jan 15, 2008)

i like normal diamonds better


----------



## Retic (Jan 15, 2008)

Was there any point to that post ?


----------



## crush the turtle (Jan 15, 2008)

u were showing ur striped diamonds,,, i said i liked the normal diamonds better..!


----------



## COOP (Jan 16, 2008)

23 pages of garbage. Well done everyone


----------



## Retic (Jan 16, 2008)

Oh I don't know, page 1 was OK.


----------



## zimbo (Feb 3, 2008)

those diamonds look so cool
i cant what till i get mine tommoz i am so excited
im getting a 10 month old diamond 
when i get it i will be posting up alot of pics if any of you guys want to see it


----------



## boris (Feb 5, 2008)

that looks grate for a dimond


----------



## ozpythons (Feb 5, 2008)

After all is sad and done why would people like to (try and)breed a striped Diamond when the animal is perfect already!


----------



## gavan (Feb 5, 2008)

Those diamonds look great, i am getting one soon and wish i could get one like that, they look awesome!!


----------

