# Cane toads threaten iconic king brown snake



## AirCooled (May 26, 2011)

Cane toads may be putting the iconic king brown snake on the endangered list in the Northern Territory.
In the past, the Environment Department describe the highly venomous species as being common in the rural areas of Darwin and Alice Springs.
Dane Trembath, a research associate with the Northern Territory Museum, says king brown numbers have fallen enough for him to nominate the species as vulnerable.
He says the king brown population in the Top End may have dropped by more than 90 per cent.
"They still are present but they are very, very rare right now," Mr Trembath said.
He says the numbers of king browns in the north have plummeted since cane toads arrived in the Territory from Queensland several years ago.
An Environment Department spokeswoman says a list of proposed endangered species will be released for public consultation in about a month.
Meanwhile, people in Darwin and Palmerston are being urged to gear up for a week of concerted cane toad catching.
Environmental group Frogwatch has designated the second week of June as the time to clear out toads that have found a home in suburbia during the wet season.
Frogwatch coordinator Graeme Sawyer says the small toads are especially deadly because they are bite-sized for goannas and lizards.
"They are also active in the daytime when those animals are foraging," he said.
"[Lizards like] frill necks will see these interesting morsels walking around on the ground and come down out of the trees and eat them and die."


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## CamdeJong (May 26, 2011)

That's disheartening news, but not at all surprising. I doubt human intervention will help, and I think the question is will Mulgas adapt as quickly as RBBs have in Queensland?


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## Banjo (May 26, 2011)

That is very sad to hear. Lets hope they adapt.


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## SnakeyTroy (May 26, 2011)

This makes me so sad.


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## PythonLegs (May 26, 2011)

The frustrating thing is that nobody in the mainstream seems to be taking this threat seriously. Cane toads have had massive impact on reptile and frog populations here in QLD- I'm in Redcliffe, and cant remember the last time I saw a frog, snake,dragon or gecko, other than AHG's and cane toads. There will be a massive decline in wildlife in the north if something drastic is not done fairly soon.


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## dossy (May 26, 2011)

last year i saw about 3 kings when in nt and i didnt see one cane toad, how long has it been like this?

i heled reduce the ct population while in qld last year by driving midle of the night and not seeing them

i hope that the king browns adapt very quickly because it would be sad to see a native die off because of a toad


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## mrkos (May 26, 2011)

I spent two years working on bridges between caboolture and beerburrum and if you don't know the area around glasshouse mountains it's prime reptile country. Although there were several snake encounters 98 percent of the time it was toads,toads and more toads more toads than you could ever possible cull.


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## longqi (May 26, 2011)

We used to go down to Katherine to play with Death Adders
Very easy to find plenty 
Last two trips were complete washouts
Very very hard to find
Also a lot less Blackheads too


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## fugawi (May 26, 2011)

Surely we can produce a genetic disease or make them sterile or something..........I know scientists have been trying for the last 70yrs or something but there has to be a way to stop them!!! We have caused the extinction of soooooo many other species, why can't we kill 1 ugly toad. What are their natural predators in South America? Something keeps them in check in their natural habitat. Have we looked into this side of them?


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## GeckPhotographer (May 26, 2011)

There is a way to stop them using daughterless male technology just nobody is willing to use it.


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## fugawi (May 26, 2011)

It is an imperative something is done......Why won't they?


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## SteveNT (May 26, 2011)

longqi said:


> We used to go down to Katherine to play with Death Adders
> Very easy to find plenty
> Last two trips were complete washouts
> Very very hard to find
> Also a lot less Blackheads too


 
Hey longqi you'll be glad to know there are big mobs of bhp's in the Ngukkur area, most common reptile around. Here's one I met this morning




Also I was recently at Harriet Ck (Just outside southern Kakadu) and we met a couple there too. Bhp's are too sensible to be wiped out by toads!

Sorry, no body shots, just got my long desired macro lens.


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## kawasakirider (May 26, 2011)

fugawi said:


> What are their natural predators in South America? Something keeps them in check in their natural habitat. Have we looked into this side of them?


 
Lol......... You want another predator, more resiliant than the toad?


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## kawasakirider (May 26, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> There is a way to stop them using daughterless male technology just nobody is willing to use it.


 
What is this?


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## Nagraj (May 26, 2011)

fugawi said:


> It is an imperative something is done......Why won't they?


 
Why is it imperative that something is done?


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## CamdeJong (May 27, 2011)

Nagraj said:


> Why is it imperative that something is done?



Because hundreds of species of native herpetofauna are at serious risk from cane toads, including ALL frog species (which the cane toads eat at every stage of the life cycle AND compete with for resources), monitors, all snakes including Australia's Natricine, the Keelback which is moderately immune to cane toad poison but which is eaten by toads. And from there all other native fauna - and subsequently flora - are at risk in respect to food web and ecosystem damage from this extremely hardy and invasive pest. In what way is it NOT imperative that more information be available and more effort be applied to its eradication???


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## Hawk (May 27, 2011)

longqi said:


> We used to go down to Katherine to play with Death Adders
> Very easy to find plenty
> Last two trips were complete washouts
> Very very hard to find
> Also a lot less Blackheads too


 
Unfortunately I have seen three average size cane toads around the Bony Well area this wet season, this is about 400km Nth of Alice Springs. I was very suprised to see them this far south.


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## PythonLegs (May 27, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> Hey longqi you'll be glad to know there are big mobs of bhp's in the Ngukkur area, most common reptile around. Here's one I met this morning
> 
> View attachment 202193
> 
> ...


 
Mate, you're kidding yourself. There may be big mobs there now, but once toads are there in numbers, there won't be.


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## Hawk (May 27, 2011)

Refering to my above post, I would just like to piont out that Bony Well is a tourist stop and whether these cane toads hitched a ride or were released there by someone who knew no better is something we may never know. But regardless of which they are there.


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## fugawi (May 27, 2011)

Adult BHPs don't eat cane toads but it is the stable diet of juvie BHPs.


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## Snakeluvver2 (May 27, 2011)

The populations affected will most likely recover in a few years time. As it has in the past on the east coast and some parts of NQLD.


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## gillsy (May 27, 2011)

Snakeluvver2 said:


> The populations affected will most likely recover in a few years time. As it has in the past on the east coast and some parts of NQLD.


 
Completely agree, they take a hit then recover after a few years. They learn to avoid or become immune, it follows evolution but on a much quicker scale. 

Fogg Dam - is a great story website on toads in australia.

The biggest suprise is that water pythons haven't taken a hit in Fogg dam, they're still as abundant as ever.


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## FusionMorelia (May 27, 2011)

lets have a whacking day every week, 2 hrs every sunday arvo we all grab the golf clubs and pitch in 
sounds harsh but so is slowly dieing from eating a poisonous toad, hell if ya cant take the whacking grab a bag and
pair of gloves collect for 2 hrs a week then CO2 their punk .....  imagine if 20000 people did this a week, with an average of 10 each thats 200k a week gone.....


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## Elapidae1 (May 27, 2011)

and it still won't put a dent in it.


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## FusionMorelia (May 27, 2011)

ok disregard my post.


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## gillsy (May 27, 2011)

A female toad has 30 000 tadpole, and the biggest predator of baby toads are adult toads.


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## FusionMorelia (May 27, 2011)

like i said, disregard my post.


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## jinjajoe (May 27, 2011)

killing females at the water's edge as this is where they tend to mate has the biggest impact....... the fat one being harassed by heaps of other toads (males) they are easy to spot....... killing them on dry land is pointless....... however still extremely futile.....

Policing every water source in QLD & NT for about 15 years doing this & hey presto !!!

easy ??????


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 27, 2011)

N.A.T.O said:


> lets have a whacking day every week, 2 hrs every sunday arvo we all grab the golf clubs and pitch in
> sounds harsh but so is slowly dieing from eating a poisonous toad, hell if ya cant take the whacking grab a bag and
> pair of gloves collect for 2 hrs a week then CO2 their punk .....  imagine if 20000 people did this a week, with an average of 10 each thats 200k a week gone.....



I like your idea, it is at least a start. Dettol works magic.
But I think that should be a bounty & kids & adults alike can trap or dettol or club as many as they like & get rewarded for it.

I have seen documentaries from people doing field studies & if we don't act soon! a lot of species WILL be lost. It has been happening for years & the evolution theory is bull & they will keep wiping things out as there is no awnser to thier pioson or control!!!!!!

Pick up a club or dettol TODAY.


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## Snakeluvver2 (May 27, 2011)

I'd like to know if any species have become extinct from just canetoads and the populations numbers over the last 3 decades on the east coast species.


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## Elapidae1 (May 27, 2011)

Have they wiped anything out?
Despite the fact they are ugly and out of control i don't see much difference between encouraging the wacking of toads and the shoveling of snakes.


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## longqi (May 27, 2011)

Whenever it was raining the Pacific Highway used to be covered in frogs of all kinds
You still see a few but nowhere like the numbers you used to from North of Port Macquarie all the way to Port Douglas
Further South from Buladelah etc the numbers of frogs are still reasonably plentiful

There are many reasons for the decline in frogs
But cane toads havent reached Bulladelah yet in large numbers as far as I know; and the other problems cover all of Australia
So if there are many less frogs in cane toad areas???


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## Snakeluvver2 (May 27, 2011)

I found heaps of frogs in brisbane this year. 
I don't think canetoads are the main reason at all for frogs disappearance, but I'd love to read some papers on it.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 27, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Have they wiped anything out?
> Despite the fact they are ugly and out of control i don't see much difference between encouraging the wacking of toads and the shoveling of snakes.



They have just about wiped out Quol populations where cane toads are invading for one. In Central Qld I have noticed in my travels through a wide range of different types of land, that there is nowhere near the number of reptiles in this area now as there was 20 years ago. EG: monitors used to be very prevalant, now you harldly see one.
Now there could be many causes, but it is well known of the toxicity of cane toads to reptiles, & with the number of toads increasing & so their area, it is most likely they are the cause.

Now it is very different to club a toad than to club a native reptile.
A toad is an introduced species obviously causing damage to the enviroment & wildlife, whereas a native reptile has a right of protection to live here!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not about to argue the point, but I will say that if you like the ugly piosonous cane toad then maybe you need a check up.

Cheers
Ian.


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## CamdeJong (May 27, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Have they wiped anything out?
> Despite the fact they are ugly and out of control i don't see much difference between encouraging the wacking of toads and the shoveling of snakes.



They're still spreading across the country at an alarming rate, and what's it matter if they haven't caused any extinctions as such, any ecosystem that encounters toads is going to be affected and not positively. There's no way in hell that they haven't affected widespread distributions of species, there have been studies on the morphological impacts on RBBs such as smaller head width - the individuals with smaller heads surviving to breed and produce genetically similar offspring is natural selection at work because they're pressured to survive by toads! They're an invasive species, probably one of the most prolific and potentially harmful in the country, should we just stop watching for fire ants, removing guinea grass and hunting feral pigs and cats? And whacking toads is, while not the most humane technique, in support of pest eradication. Shovelling snakes is the unlawful killing of native wildlife, generally performed by misinformed people who think they're doing their families/communities a favour and often done with fear and malice.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 27, 2011)

On top of this & talking about feral cats, in my travels yesterday just around the local area of Emerald I saw two feral cats, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY. How many do you think you would see at night.
There should be a bounty on those ba-----s as well, & furthermore every cat & dog owner should be made have their pet registered & desexed & if they are a breeder they should be made have a licence & kept within a closed compound, if they escape they are prey for everyone.
Now I might ruffle a few feathers here, but what the heck, you talk about protecting our native wildlife, this is what is needed & no deviations from this.

Cheers
Ian

You may find that it is mostly the people responding with passion about this subject from QLD or NT that have experienced the problems.


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## longqi (May 27, 2011)

Dont worry Ian
We used spotlight them in Western NSW and Sa so they are pretty widespread
Nasty beasties
New Zealand has a huge problem with them too
The Kiwi is nearly a myth on the mainland now
Only place Kiwis are increasing in numbers [apart from Bondi] is on cat free Islands off the coast


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 27, 2011)

Peter 
It is at least good to see that there are others as sane as I am?

Cheers buddy
Ian


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## Elapidae1 (May 27, 2011)

So they haven't wiped out a single species then?
There's a lot to like about the Canetoad Ian, rather interesting animal.
So the morphological effects have been proven to be a result of Canetoads?
As far as toad wacking goes, from what I have seen it is conducted with the same redneck mentality as snake shoveling. Killing animals whether feral or not in a calous and inhumane manner encourages a redneck mentality toward all creatures and sets a poor example.

No need to get personal either Ian, maybe your attitude towards other living creatures and the support of barbaric killing of animals for fun (even if in the guise of conservation) requires attention before my checkup


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## kawasakirider (May 27, 2011)

N.A.T.O said:


> lets have a whacking day every week, 2 hrs every sunday arvo we all grab the golf clubs and pitch in
> sounds harsh but so is slowly dieing from eating a poisonous toad, hell if ya cant take the whacking grab a bag and
> pair of gloves collect for 2 hrs a week then CO2 their punk .....  imagine if 20000 people did this a week, with an average of 10 each thats 200k a week gone.....



Good idea in theory, but each female toad can give birth to 40,000 twice a year. Let's assume that that's 50/50 male/female, so that's 40,000 females that can each give birth to 40,000 more females twice a year. Impossible to get rid of them, really.


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## jinjajoe (May 27, 2011)

Mate, I am a Pom who when living in England collected & adored the common Toad (different to the Cane Toad) but similar in looks...... In England it was considered a blessing to have Toads (similar to the Green Tree Frog) as they controlled insects etc & they are indeed beautiful animals.

Now I live in Queensland & there are literally hundreds of Toads in every single back yard throughout the entire state not to mention those in the bush...... they are in plague proportions. I still like Toads but they need to be eradicated...... mindless killing is still in principle, as described completely mindless. You would understand the QLD mentality more if they were in every Rockingham Yard & native Fauna of your own were being destroyed.

However there is an in-humane 'destroy the toad' attitude in QLD which is somewhat red-neck & I am frowned at when I say they are a beautiful animal.... but some kind of humane destruction is desperately required nonetheless.......

I'd love to find an answer............



steve1 said:


> So they haven't wiped out a single species then?
> There's a lot to like about the Canetoad Ian, rather interesting animal.
> So the morphological effects have been proven to be a result of Canetoads?
> As far as toad wacking goes, from what I have seen it is conducted with the same redneck mentality as snake shoveling. Killing animals whether feral or not in a calous and inhumane manner encourages a redneck mentality toward all creatures and sets a poor example.
> ...


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## Elapidae1 (May 27, 2011)

I agree with you Jinjajoe, I never said they weren't a problem, LOL


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 27, 2011)

steve1 said:


> So they haven't wiped out a single species then?
> There's a lot to like about the Canetoad Ian, rather interesting animal.
> So the morphological effects have been proven to be a result of Canetoads?
> As far as toad wacking goes, from what I have seen it is conducted with the same redneck mentality as snake shoveling. Killing animals whether feral or not in a calous and inhumane manner encourages a redneck mentality toward all creatures and sets a poor example.
> ...



Everyone has their own morals within the laws. I accept yours as not giving a bugger towards the conservation of our native wildlife. I hope that you can forgive me for every cane toad or feral cat that i kill as I think that I am doing Australian wildlife & our children a favour.

Cheers
Ian.


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## Elapidae1 (May 27, 2011)

lol, You have amazing powers of insight into my moral standards. I think you'll find lining up toad with a golf club is actually illegal regardless of your own moral stance.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 27, 2011)

> What is this?



To others reading my reply my original post was in regard to it being possible to control toads using daughter-less male concept. This is the same technology as is being looked into in carp. A gene is switched on in captive laboratory bred toads which means whenever they breed they produce only male toads, whenever those males breed they produce only males. This technology in theory could drastically curb or even eradicate toad population. So what is the problem, to put this technology into effect, thousands or tens of thousands maybe even hundreds of thousands (I have no idea on the actual number needed) of toads would have to be released and the idea of releasing more toads even if beneficial is not a pleasant one. 


In regard to the 'debate' going on about the necessity to eliminate toads I have two points. The first being that we must take a mentality of if there is evidence to suggest anything could go wrong we should stop it. We should not wait until an animal becomes extinct from a toad before we do something to control numbers. I mean do you think we should because if you do it is honestly ridiculous?
Secondly is a a problem I have with 'toad wacking', a problem that truly has little to do with cane toads. As a frog biologist it is not uncommon for my father to get emails asking "is this a toad" (even in Newcastle) and sometimes that the person put it in their freezer just in case. I have yet to see a time the frog was not that a frog, not even uncommonly that it is the endangered species Mixophyes iteratus. We must have extreme caution in how we go about the elimination of toads by 'uneducated' members of the public least it have an adverse effect on native frogs.


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## Elapidae1 (May 27, 2011)

Interesting, have they actually switched this gene on in the toads?
If the question re waiting on extinction first was aimed at me, of course I don't think this. I was just winding up redneck toad wackers, who as you pointed out probably do or at least unwittingly encourage more damage to native frogs than the toads themselves.

Would you release the toads?


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 27, 2011)

Sorry,
I did not think that there was an uneducated way to get rid of canetoads.
I am sorry if my posts offended you at all or anyone else, BUT you really need to take a look at what is going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO BULL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get out in the field & have a look!
It is too late now for QLD but look elswhere if you are FAIR DINMKUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## GeckPhotographer (May 27, 2011)

> Sorry,
> I did not think that there was an uneducated way to get rid of canetoads.
> I am sorry if my posts offended you at all or anyone else, BUT you really need to take a look at what is going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> NO BULL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...



Not sure if that is aimed at me. If it is I support toads in Aus need to be eliminated, I have seen just how bad they can be in parts of NT. And in reply to the above post yes I would release the toads. My problem is simply the people going around wacking whatever they think looks like a toad and getting a bunch of Aussie frogs in the process. I will answer the bit about whether the gene has been turned on yet in a minute am busy right now.


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## Nagraj (May 27, 2011)

CamdeJong said:


> Because hundreds of species of native herpetofauna are at serious risk from cane toads ...........


 
Debunking Myths about Cane Toad Impact
"
*Myth # 2*

*Toads have caused the extinction of many native Australian species*

The truth is, no Australian species is known or even suspected to have gone extinct as a result of cane toads. ............


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## Nagraj (May 27, 2011)

*Myth # 4*

*Toads are wiping out native frogs*

Common sense says that frogs will be in real trouble when toads arrive – but they aren’t. Although toads do compete with frogs for food, and do sometimes eat frogs, the number of frogs doesn’t go down when the toads arrive.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 27, 2011)

Ok in reference to how proved daughter-less male technology is. The gene in toads responsible for this has been isolated, multiple copies can be inserted and the toad would only produce male offspring. The untested part is based on that the gene has more effect than just on gender it also has effects in the brain of the toad and such and what these effects are is still untested.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 27, 2011)

> *Myth # 4*
> 
> *Toads are wiping out native frogs*
> 
> Common sense says that frogs will be in real trouble when toads arrive – but they aren’t. Although toads do compete with frogs for food, and do sometimes eat frogs, the number of frogs doesn’t go down when the toads arrive.


Debunking Debunked Myth 4. To get money to study whether frog numbers have declined from toads scientists must first get evidence to suggest from numbers have declined thus leaving a paradox where no data exists. However plenty of anecdotal evidence does suggest decline in frog numbers in areas where toads resides in high numbers.


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## Nagraj (May 27, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> However plenty of anecdotal evidence does suggest decline in frog numbers in areas where toads resides in high numbers.


 
The plural of anecdote is not data


If you read the link provided you will see that several studies have been carried out.


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## Nagraj (May 27, 2011)

Available at your local hardware store. If you continue to use brutal killing methods now that you know this humane product exists you are no better than the cane toads themselves. 

*HopStop®*





HopStop® spray is a convenient and effective way to control cane toads. When used properly, it’s safe for people and pets, and is humane for the toads. HopStop® has been developed for use in home gardens and similar outdoor settings.


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## CamdeJong (May 28, 2011)

Nagraj said:


> Debunking Myths about Cane Toad Impact
> "
> *Myth # 2*
> 
> ...




I missed the part where I used the word "extinct". Seems like this thread has become entrenched in flogging vs freezing and some of us who never endorsed inhumane measures in the first place are being debunked on this premise - I bag and freeze toads and remove eggs from my dam, my only argument here is that they pose a serious threat to native fauna.


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## $NaKe PiMp (May 30, 2011)

Snakeluvver2 said:


> I'd like to know if any species have become extinct from just canetoads and the populations numbers over the last 3 decades on the east coast species.


 


i asked this exact question to the principal investigator in cane toad research Rick Shine and he said there has been no animal species made extinct from the presence of cane toads that they know of


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## fugawi (May 30, 2011)

Yet..................


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## fugawi (May 30, 2011)

Take the BHPs, as adults they don't eat frogs or toads but the young do, so when the toads turn up in small numbers at first, the adults will be fine, then the BHPs breed and some young die from toads, some survive. After a couple of breeding seasons, toads increase, higher numbers of BHP babies die until finally all the young die. Adult BHPs continue to breed but their young die. This can go on for 20yrs or so after the maybe 10 yrs of some of the young making it to maturity until finally you get LOCALISED extinction. So to say NO extinctions is really a bit of a play on words. RBBs could be completely wiped out of QLD, but because of the ones in NSW and VIC, they will not be extinct.

So when they say "No extinctions from cane toads" you must add YET.


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## saratoga (May 30, 2011)

Black Headed Pythons are one animal that appears to have benefited from the toads, at least in Kakadu. In one area of Kakadu where I lived for many years BHP's were only seen occasionally. Now they are one of the most common snakes there! I would imagine they have benefited on two fronts; one from having another major snake eater disappear (the King Brown), and the other from the HUGE decline in the population of Varanus panoptes which I would assume would have dug up their eggs and fed on younger snakes.

Fugawi is spot on about localised extinctions and I'm sure this is happening with some animals affected by the toads. The animals won't be considered extinct until they have disappeared from their whole range!

Since the toads arrived in Kakadu there have been HUGE declines in the numbers of King Browns, Adders, Olive Pythons, Water Pythons, Frillies, Monitors, Blue tongues. Sure this is all anecdotal and is not based on scientific experimentation, but Kakadu today is a very different place to what it was 10 years ago in terms of the relative abundance of many species. I would attribute this to toads, however there are also other factors to consider ... at the top of that list would be the crippling fire regimes in the park. We also are yet to understand why populations of mammals in the Top End are crashing at an extraordinary rate.

NB The name King Brown is a much better name than Mulga Snake when referring to these snakes in the Top End. They really are a king-sized brown coloured snakes....the largest in Australia...reaching 3m and as thick as your arm with scales the size of fingernails! Further there is no "mulga" occurring in the Top End


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## $NaKe PiMp (May 30, 2011)

we cant rely on anecdotal information,some good news is while i was researching on black snakes i came across accounts in papers of Queensland Pseudechis porphyriacus populations have not shown major signs of decrease even in the most toad affected areas,and there was evidence of evolved responses already in the short time since 1935,which is fewer than 23 snake generations.

Toads are easily seen by most people as the biggest pest that ever existed cause they are so visible to everyone,However,there are much worse threats from more devastating habitat destruction and other feral animals like cats/foxes which are scientifically known to have caused extinctions already.
Those factors have been around alot longer so Toads could still very well lead to some extinctions.
Its sad to see these big NT Kingbrowns disappear,heres a picture of two beauties i got to play with


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## Jewyy95 (May 30, 2011)

Also putting the Water monitors in western Australias Kimberley Desert in danger, wildlife researchers have only spotted up to 20 monitors in the region and they think these predators will soon become victims to the Cane toads. By the end of the dry season experts estimated that Cane toads will have infested the kimberley and will be harming most of the wildlife there.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 30, 2011)

Nagraj said:


> Available at your local hardware store. If you continue to use brutal killing methods now that you know this humane product exists you are no better than the cane toads themselves.
> 
> *HopStop®*
> 
> ...



This is the first time I have ever seen this product. What is its active constituent??

I can see that a lot of my fellow toad haters agree with mostly everything that I say & as well as cat & fox haters. 
You can not tell me that toads are not having a devastating effect on our native wildlife not just snakes. Well you can, but it is not reasonably based on fact.

And so the Hopstop is better than Dettol or a good wack that kills them almost instantly, if the right mix of Dettol is used, the toads are lucky to hop away more than 3 or 4 meters. I wish that when I go it could be that easy.

Cheers
Ian


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## Elapidae1 (May 30, 2011)

LOL And thy legions shall bow down. I fear to disagree lest your mighty fellows smite me down with a 9 iron and inflame mine eyes with Hopstop.

I wonder how many native frogs have been killed with Frog, sorry Hopstop?


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 30, 2011)

steve1 said:


> LOL And thy legions shall bow down. I fear to disagree lest your mighty fellows smite me down with a 9 iron and inflame mine eyes with Hopstop.
> 
> I wonder how many native frogs have been killed with Frog, sorry Hopstop?



I would imagine that people that use Hopstop or a nine iron know the difference between a cane toad & a frog.
If something is not done about the march of toads there maybe more to lose than a few innocent frogs hit by the few uneducated.
Please don't take offense to what I say but more try to accept the inevitable if nothing is done!!!! 

Cheers
Ian


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## SteveNT (May 30, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> Mate, you're kidding yourself. There may be big mobs there now, but once toads are there in numbers, there won't be.



You goose. 

Cane toads moved into Ngukurr a decade and a half ago on their way to Kakadu then Darwin. They are everywhere and so are the bhp's. Perhaps the bhp's ability to deal with (immunity to) death adder, king brown, taipan, etc, etc venom, (their favourite food is snakes), gives them an edge against the bastard bufo. 

Do you have any idea where Ngukurr is?


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## $NaKe PiMp (May 30, 2011)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> This is the first time I have ever seen this product. What is its active constituent??
> 
> I can see that a lot of my fellow toad haters agree with mostly everything that I say & as well as cat & fox haters.
> You can not tell me that toads are not having a devastating effect on our native wildlife not just snakes. Well you can, but it is not reasonably based on fact.
> ...




toads have had a devastating effect,just not to the degree first imagined,so theres no harm in killing as many toads as you can manage its just that doesnt even put a dent in ther numbers 
Habitat destruction,climate change and other introduced pests have had a more devastating effect, so according to science we have to adress those more importantly.

you can enjoy toad golf if you so desire there is no law against it,and if the scientists have it wrong well you may be saving a few species


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 30, 2011)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> toads have had a devastating effect,just not to the degree first imagined,so theres no harm in killing as many toads as you can manage its just that doesnt even put a dent in ther numbers
> Habitat destruction,climate change and other introduced pests have had a more devastating effect, so according to science we have to adress those more importantly.
> 
> you can enjoy toad golf if you so desire there is no law against it,and if the scientists have it wrong well you may be saving a few species



Cheers.


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## saratoga (May 30, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> Perhaps the bhp's ability to deal with (immunity to) death adder, king brown, taipan, etc, etc venom, (their favourite food is snakes), gives them an edge against the bastard bufo.
> 
> Do you have any idea where Ngukurr is?



I think the point here is not immunity to venom but that apart from the Taipan, the other snakes are big frog eaters. Toads knocked out the frog eaters and left the BHPs way ahead of the competition.
That there have also been more sightings of Top End taipans in the last few years also supports this idea


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## SteveNT (May 30, 2011)

If any of you have seen my other posts on this I apologise.

The Cat food and Meat Ant Solution.

In many of the cane toad breeding pools, from puddles to the lake at the bottom of Gunlom Falls, the tadpoles congregate at the easiest exit points. Traditional owners up here noticed if there was something tasty for meat ants left there (lolly wrapper, almost empty corned beef tin) the meat ants were drawn to the area and got stuck into the emerging toadlets in a typically ruthless and thorough manner.

I tried this with the Kalkarigi Rangers at a small spring with a nice focal point for the tadpoles/ toadlets. The ant trail lasted 4 days and the bait was a small bit of tinned cat food initially. Once they were onto the toadlets they kept collecting them

That's a lot of non toads in that area. I camped there 4 weeks later and saw no young toads (but still a few adults) (since departed)

It's not eradication but it's a control method for some areas.


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## SteveNT (May 30, 2011)

saratoga said:


> I think the point here is not immunity to venom but that apart from the Taipan, the other snakes are big frog eaters. Toads knocked out the frog eaters and left the BHPs way ahead of the competition.
> That there have also been more sightings of Top End taipans in the last few years also supports this idea



I see where you're coming from. Around Kalkaringi there are rediculous numbers of varanus storri and from what I saw there, over a 6 month period, they dont eat frogs, they are entirely insect focussed. And they take mostly the high dry stonier country where the toads are minimal.

It's good to see some of the guys are thriving because it breaks my heart to travel through formerly rich mammal and herp country and see only juvenile frill necks, king browns, freshwater crocs, v.panoptes and no bandiccoots or quolls. And plenty of toads.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 30, 2011)

Maybe we need to be encouraging meat ants??????
I just hate it when people say there is no awnser or it is too hard or evolution will take over, evolution will but at what cost???

I hope that it does not come back in years to come in saying, well Ian davo was right, but we got it wrong & have lost those species forever.

Cheers


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## saratoga (May 30, 2011)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> we cant rely on anecdotal information,
> Toads are easily seen by most people as the biggest pest that ever existed cause they are so visible to everyone,However,there are much worse threats from more devastating habitat destruction and other feral animals like cats/foxes which are scientifically known to have caused extinctions already.
> Those factors have been around alot longer so Toads could still very well lead to some extinctions.
> Its sad to see these big NT Kingbrowns disappear,heres a picture of two beauties i got to play with



Agree we can't entirely rely on anecdotal info, but too often it is discounted altogether. 

When anecdotal info comes from a swag of experienced naturalists who spend a lot of time in the bush it really needs to be taken into account and given some weight.

Baseline biological data takes a very long time to collect and needs to be ongoing over decades. Doing nothing until the scientific data "comes in" while changes are happening before our eyes just doesn't make sense.

Fortunately a study has been ongoing at Fogg Dam for some time so there is some good data available for that area I think, but we shouldn't ignore what is obvious to even the most casual observers.

Agree that other ferals and land clearing pose big threats. In the Top End introduced pasture grasses also are rapidly colonising new areas and changings the ecology very quickly by promoting very hot and widespread fire regimes.

Beautiful big snakes there snakepimp... tire the arms pretty quickly. Saw a disgusting video a few years ago put out by one of Australias leading duck shooting magazines. It showed them hunting near Fogg Dam and blowing away 2 big Kingis like this in the middle of the floodplain...no threat to anyone out there!


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## SteveNT (May 30, 2011)

I searched for positives to the toadvasion a few years ago and only found one. Goannas are the most significant taker of turtle eggs on most of the coastline up here. When their populations collapsed (old mate toad) the hatching rate improved significantly.

Now I,ve heard a second from a local fella.

If your house has a cockie infestation, import 1 big toad- all gone in two days. Then toss the toad. Always more where they come from!


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## mmafan555 (Jun 1, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> You goose.
> 
> Cane toads moved into Ngukurr a decade and a half ago on their way to Kakadu then Darwin. They are everywhere and so are the bhp's. Perhaps the bhp's ability to deal with (immunity to) death adder, king brown, taipan, etc, etc venom, (their favourite food is snakes), gives them an edge against the bastard bufo.
> 
> Do you have any idea where Ngukurr is?


 

Sounds unlikely imho...As after all the cane toad has poison..which is obviously different to snake venom....And the king brown is a snake eater and kills/eats venomous snakes and seems rather helpless against the cane toads toxins....The Bhp probably just knows to avoid the toad or has figured out a way to eat them safely( I'm not familiar with the diet of a Bhp) but it seems very unlikely that it has any significant resistance to the toads poison...

Cats in general are just incredibly destructive to animals their size and smaller....Felines( the feline family in general) are mega carnivores with extreme hunting/predator instincts and most animals just don't know how to deal with them at all...Same goes for feral dogs to some extend.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2011)

Steve, although certaintly not in the numbers we used to see, i am still finding panoptes/gouldii (i can't quite tell them apart most of the time) of various ages around the flood planes. I've also been finding mertens/mitchells (again i can't always tell them apart) in the streams coming off the escarpment occasionally.

Here's one (mertens) and a habitat pic.













SteveNT said:


> I see where you're coming from. Around Kalkaringi there are rediculous numbers of varanus storri and from what I saw there, over a 6 month period, they dont eat frogs, they are entirely insect focussed. And they take mostly the high dry stonier country where the toads are minimal.
> 
> It's good to see some of the guys are thriving because it breaks my heart to travel through formerly rich mammal and herp country and see only juvenile frill necks, king browns, freshwater crocs, v.panoptes and no bandiccoots or quolls. And plenty of toads.


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## lazylizzy (Jun 1, 2011)

i wannt them gone, but at the same time its not their fault. WE brought them here, and they are just trying to survive like any other animal. very sad i hate being torn 2 ways like this. cane toads are quite beautiful. if they wernt hated and a danger to native wildlife, i would keep one i a heartbeat


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## PythonLegs (Jun 1, 2011)

"You goose. 

Cane toads moved into Ngukurr a decade and a half ago on their way to Kakadu then Darwin. They are everywhere and so are the bhp's. Perhaps the bhp's ability to deal with (immunity to) death adder, king brown, taipan, etc, etc venom, (their favourite food is snakes), gives them an edge against the bastard bufo. 

Do you have any idea where Ngukurr is? " 

Can't say I've been to ngukurr, and there are many other places I haven't been. But toad populations in NT are increasing, and aren't close to what they are are in southern QLD. Great that BHP's you see are immune to cane toad venom, but what we're talking about is wide scale food chain collapse which will affect BHPs eventually. You goose.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> Can't say I've been to ngukurr, and there are many other places I haven't been. But toad populations in NT are increasing, and aren't close to what they are are in southern QLD. Great that BHP's you see are immune to cane toad venom, but what we're talking about is wide scale food chain collapse which will affect BHPs eventually. You goose.



If you haven't been here how do you know the numbers are not what they are in southern QLD? The toad pop isn't increasing here perse`, it is expanding.


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## kawasakirider (Jun 1, 2011)

i-snake said:


> i don't wanna sound cruel but i'm a bloody proud aussie and i am so sick of seeing our natives come under threat because of this introduced feral, what needs to be done is an annual nationwide toad cull with huge prizes for the winners and no holds barred on how you do it, also people need to take it in your own hands and get as many as you can whenever you see them, i remember when i was growing up, if i seen one, it never saw the light of day again, also the government seriously needs to get off it's backside, stop acting like a bunch of twits and put some massive funding towards a* virus that is genetic specific to something the cane toad needs to survive*, but that natives don't have, it's no longer good enough to be an ostrich with your head in the sand, its time to stand up and say if they wont do it then i will _ Michael Harris


 
So you're saying we should launch biological warfare on everything the cane toad eats, drinks and breeds in? Sweet plan, lets just drop a nuke on Australia.

A culling competition would do nothing. Cane toads have 40,000 babies twice a year each. Every one cane toad a person kills, there's thousands upon thousands more annually.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2011)

Something tells me that's not quite what they meant. 



kawasakirider said:


> So you're saying we should launch biological warfare on everything the cane toad eats, drinks and breeds in? Sweet plan, lets just drop a nuke on Australia.
> 
> A culling competition would do nothing. Cane toads have 40,000 babies twice a year each. Every one cane toad a person kills, there's thousands upon thousands more annually.


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## PythonLegs (Jun 1, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If you haven't been here how do you know the numbers are not what they are in southern QLD? The toad pop isn't increasing here perse`, it is expanding.


 
I've been to a few places in NT, but not there. You can view recent toad density, and there are a few reports on the subject. Thats what google's for. I'm only commenting on what I see in the field here in QLD, and I'm seeing substantially larger numbers of toads in the sunshine coast hinterland every year.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> I've been to a few places in NT, but not there. You can view recent toad density, and there are a few reports on the subject. Thats what google's for. I'm only commenting on what I see in the field here in QLD, and I'm seeing substantially larger numbers of toads in the sunshine coast hinterland every year.



Did you check anything before making that claim? Apparently the densities are the same or lower in QLD when compared to the NT....

http://www.nrm.gov.au/publications/factsheets/bp09-10/pubs/04-reducing-cane-toads-map.pdf


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## kawasakirider (Jun 1, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Something tells me that's not quite what they meant.


 
It was a joke because the person I quoted worded it poorly.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2011)

Pythonlegs i'm keen to see the research but in reality whether there are 100 per square meter or 200, it is still more than enough to cause significant damage. 

To adress your argument about BHP's, i still see alot of large BHPs around, i think it has more to do with diet than any kind of immunity.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> It was a joke because the person I quoted worded it poorly.



I understood what they meant, your joke wasn't very funny and kind of nasty.


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## kawasakirider (Jun 1, 2011)

I understood what they meant, too. But you've taken stuff I've said out of context for a joke. 

Sorry if I offended.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I understood what they meant, too. But you've taken stuff I've said out of context for a joke.
> 
> Sorry if I offended.



I know, i'm doing it again now.... :lol:


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## kawasakirider (Jun 1, 2011)

Now I'm just confused...


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jun 1, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Now I'm just confused...


 
Don't worry about it mate, I am right, just follow my lead.


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## PythonLegs (Jun 1, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Did you check anything before making that claim? Apparently the densities are the same or lower in QLD when compared to the NT....
> 
> http://www.nrm.gov.au/publications/factsheets/bp09-10/pubs/04-reducing-cane-toads-map.pdf


 
Well...that link you posted shows NT population at 'common or medium' with no 'abundant or high' areas. So..the opposite of what you said.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jun 1, 2011)

When are you all going to WAKE UP & realise that cane toads have no place here in Aussie.
Look at the facts that are proven by field scientists.

We need to strongly lobby the GOV'T & GREENS as to the destruction that Cane Toads are cuasing & if they care about thier votes & the natural environment of Aussie then they should act.

As said earlier I believe that a sollution lies with the Gov't defuncked CSIRO. More money is needed for this organisation if there is any possibillity of holding back the TOAD.

Vote at the next election & let it be heard in the votes, better still why don't we somehow send in a letter from our head boddy??????????? as to why the eradication of cane toads need a primary source of funds. That outa do it.

Cheers
Ian


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## Elapidae1 (Jun 1, 2011)

Lol


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## PythonLegs (Jun 1, 2011)

*facepalm*


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jun 1, 2011)

...no one is saying toads are not bad or do not have a negative effect on the environment. 
Just saying they aren't as bad as you think, despite how the media and society portrays them, more research is needed in population densities, what species they are affecting, what species will recover with time, and how to solve the problem. 

Time has shown that most species affected by toads have made a come back. 
I think (IMO) this trend will continue in MOST species. 
Australia officially gave up on the war with toads a few years ago and I don't think it will come back in the Government (please prove me wrong) but independent organizations will be the back bone of the front-line.

It has had some interesting affects on species such as Keelbacks, Red Belly Blacks, Marsh Snakes and Common Tree Snakes concerning the head size to body size ratio. I'm sure there has been changes or will be rapid changes in other species too, particular some monitors and other snakes.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jun 1, 2011)

Yer cause when I make a plan I don't do any research and just shoot guns wildly. 
Stupid idea.
CSIRO has given up on toads, so have fun funding that.


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## Wally (Jun 1, 2011)

Been into the grog cupboard again Ian?


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## Elapidae1 (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh it all makes sense now.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Jun 1, 2011)

i keep posting this link but keep getting the same people going"lets kill every damn one of them" which would be wonderful but not possible.

Cane Toads in Oz


i love our wildlife and i dont particurlarly like toads,but as they have not caused extinctions in any species,there are worse things out there such as habitat destruction.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jun 1, 2011)

> habitat destruction



Should be more threads about this and what you can do about it.


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## SteveNT (Jun 1, 2011)

Their impact is immediate in new country. most (not all) species recover to an extent (decades later). What I see is frill necks, king browns, big or aquatic varanids, creeping back but still, adults are rare. The smaller freshwater crocs (escarpment) and stone country have just gone. And the freshies are a rare sight on the floodplain rivers. There is also a big shift in fish and crustacean dominance in creek systems.
Cherubin (amphibian egg eaters) disappear but freshwater crabs increase, sooty and spangled grunters die off and rainbow fish increase.This is first hand experience over a few decades.

Sadly folks the toads are entrenched and what threatens them by way of an exterminant threatens native frogs. Darwin's rules apply and the counter weapons will adapt. Not just crows but Intermediate Herons here have learned to flip them over and eat them through the belly, avoiding the poison (can I say that?) glands on their back.

It's interesting to see as they adapt to cold and dessication and spread towards the Mexican states there is an outcry of "stop them at all costs" but nobody noticed when we were screaming the alarms up here 20 years ago. Now they are in the northern floodplains, just like their home country in Venuzuela. You take a boat out on the stunning Coroboree Billabong (Mary River) now and you see 2kg thug toads swimming across the river and nothing (except me) touches them.

They're here, have been for a long time. Get used to it.

(I cant)


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## waruikazi (Jun 2, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> Well...that link you posted shows NT population at 'common or medium' with no 'abundant or high' areas. So..the opposite of what you said.



Like Steve said, you're a goose!

I never made any claims about toad populations being bigger or smaller except that they are expanding, which is well documented and shown in that map i posted. You are the one making claims that toad populations are denser in SQLD, you claim it is documented but you can't show any documents that back you up.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jun 2, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> Been into the grog cupboard again Ian?



Yah mate I have to, just to put up with reading some of the nonsense in this thread.

I guess we all just sit back & watch evolution take over & watch the cane toad spread to the rest of Australia, because they WILL.


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## Wally (Jun 2, 2011)

No propositions at least, so we'll take that as a win.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jun 2, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> No propositions at least, so we'll take that as a win.



Just one quick Question.
Are you really a wally or is that just your avatar name?

I sometimes think that I am for participating in these forums.

Cheers
Ian


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## Wally (Jun 2, 2011)

It is a part of my name, but it's not my first, second or surname. Cryptic enough?


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jun 2, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> It is a part of my name, but it's not my first, second or surname. Cryptic enough?



Sorry mate,
I just could not help myself.

Cheers
Ian


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## SteveNT (Jun 4, 2011)

Last word from me- out of range for a week

Maybe the toads are reclaiming lost ground. Toads are an ancient constituent of South America, Oz used to be hooked up, in fact adjacent, in Gondwanan times. That's probably why some native species can eat the buggers.

I have an 800km drive tomorrow (early am departure) and I will see bugger all snakes on the road compared to pre toad days. And for that I curse them now and for all time.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jun 5, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> Last word from me- out of range for a week
> 
> Maybe the toads are reclaiming lost ground. Toads are an ancient constituent of South America, Oz used to be hooked up, in fact adjacent, in Gondwanan times. That's probably why some native species can eat the buggers.
> 
> I have an 800km drive tomorrow (early am departure) and I will see bugger all snakes on the road compared to pre toad days. And for that I curse them now and for all time.



I agree Steve, I find the same driving around CQ nowhere near the number of reptiles now especially monitors.
Others have a different view that I cannot accept.

Hope you have a good successfull trip.
Cheers
Ian


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## antaresia_boy (Jun 5, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Surely we can produce a genetic disease or make them sterile or something..........I know scientists have been trying for the last 70yrs or something but there has to be a way to stop them!!! We have caused the extinction of soooooo many other species, why can't we kill 1 ugly toad. What are their natural predators in South America? Something keeps them in check in their natural habitat. Have we looked into this side of them?


 
Sorry.....why did we get cane toads in the country to start with?? lol >.<


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