# My first wild snake encounter



## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

Well I'm a bit upset today.
For some reason I'd never seen a snake in the wild before. My parents have just bought a house in the country and so I went with them to have a look. The current owners are still there and the man was home so he showed us around. As I walked by a pot plant near the back door I saw what I thought may have been a fake snake sitting in it. When it suddenly flew off under cover, I stupidly called out "ooh a snake!". I was really excited to finally see one! The man said it must have been a lizard (obviously thinking I couldn't tell the difference) and I said it must have been a legless lizard cos it had no legs. So we lifted up the pot to reveal the snake, and the man immediately grabbed his shovel and killed it.
Now I know this is fairly common practice for people to kill snakes that are near the house. I'm just disappointed that the first wild snake I have ever seen had its life cut short because I found it, I feel like it's my fault. 

Anyway, now I'm trying to figure out what type of snake it was. The closest I can find is a RBB, it was small (young I guess), black, with what looked like some dark red pattern up towards the head, not very bold. Didn't get close enough to get a better look! Any other sugggestions as to what it might have been?


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## carinacat (Oct 20, 2007)

Poor Little Snake


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## scorps (Oct 20, 2007)

any pics?


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

OMG - what were you thinknig.. why didn't you tell the man to stop? Sorry, but I would have got that shovel and whacked him one!

You're going to find a lot of flack on this thread me thinks...

In fact so much so that people may be requesting you call the Victoria EPA what ever they're called and have that man fined! It's an offence to harm a native animal!


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

It all happened so quick if there were pics they would be of a mashed snake on the end of a shovel.
It was probably about 40cm long, didn't see the underside to see if it was red but do RBBs have and red anywhere else beside the belly? I'm quite sure I saw dark red pattern on top, only near the head.


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

I did tell him not to kill it and he said "I know they are protected but not when they are near the family" or something like that. It was right by the door. I have been told this is actually a pretty common thing that people do?? Am I wrong?


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## GSXR_Boy (Oct 20, 2007)

yellowtamarin said:


> Any other sugggestions as to what it might have been? .


 
Alive!!


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

pretty uncommon I would hope - it's illegal. I would have offered to move it


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## MatE (Oct 20, 2007)

What a shame so next time when he gets bitten by a brown snake he will wonder why he killed the RBB.


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## bitey (Oct 20, 2007)

Poor little snake, did you let the guy know that you didn't dig his actions ? (bad pun)


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

slim6y said:


> pretty uncommon I would hope - it's illegal. I would have offered to move it


Yeah, illegal, but so are a lot of other things people do and I don't dob in everyone I see breaking the law. I was quite distressed about what he did and if this was an 'unusual' thing to do I would have reported it, but I'd have thought this is something a lot of people do. Well like I said it's the first time I've seen a wild snake, I don't have much to go on except what I've heard.


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

People constantly kill snakes around the house. Better the snake than their kids, they think. I tend to agree I'd rather the snake than my kid... Especially out country, 'the only good snake is a dead snake'.

Think there is som loop-hole in the law that says if they're around your house/endangering your family you can kill them. No way you could have stopped him, anyway... But sorry you had to see it.

Happened at a cattle prac the other day. Someone saw a snake (brown, I think) near the cows and just shovelled it.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

so you wouldn't report a murder because it happens? Come on... you're a herpetologist - it's an extremist of sorts. You're meant to be out there educating and protecting... Educate the people and protect the wildlife...

That snake wouldn't have harmed ANYONE in that house.. even if it was a RBBS.

It's important to educate - and even more important to protect! It's your hobby, and some of our livelihoods as well (not mine, but I'd like it to be).

So treasure it - don't let people blatantly break the law, you have an obligation to report it.


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

I'm not saying I don't care, and wherever possible I always encourage not killing it. But to some people, that isn't going to matter. They would rather the snake was dead than the cow was bitten, because that would cost them money. I'm a herpetologist of sorts, but definitly not an extremist. I most defintely don't _advocate_ the killing of snakes (stop PMing me), I'm just saying there is a loophole that allows it.

As for that snake not killing someone, how do you know the owner of the house didn't have a 2 year old son that could have put his hand in the pot plant? People's irrational fear of snakes says "if my kid goes near it, it will bite him." ...Which is sometimes the case anyway


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

slim6y said:


> You're meant to be out there educating and protecting... Educate the people and protect the wildlife...


As far as educating goes, I really don't know what I could have done. My mum grew up in the country and says most people have an attitude about snakes that can't be changed - protected or not, they won't take a chance when they are near the house. This guy knows the law, being fined for breaking it will cause obvious tension between him and my parents (they get along well) and for nothing because he'd do the same thing again next time.
But I have taken what you have said on board for consideration if I am ever in a similar situation.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

you're instantly an extremist of sorts as soon as you're a herpetologist  - it kind of counts you realise!

Who's PMing you? 

And doesn't that just indicate that this is a site full of extremists - it's the wrong word I know, but... It's the ideals that we choose a hobby that's different on the whole to the rest!

Protection and stupidness are very different... that snake would scuttle as soon as it could! Would not attack!


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## waruikazi (Oct 20, 2007)

Sounds like it could have been a collette? And as slimy said, you definately are a really bad bad person for allowing this to happen :roll: it wasn't you who killed it, reporting the guy would do nothing and a kookaburra would prolly have eaten it anyway. You weren't the one at fault.


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

I'm not saying who PM'd me haha, there's no reason to get petty.

I understand that people are very into herps here (and I am too), but what really grinds my gears is peoples' love of an animal getting in the way of reason.

As for that snake scuttling and not attacking.. how do you explain the 1000s of snakebites reported every year..? Those snakes didn't scuttle. I know of a family that lost a kid to a snake bite. Bet they wished they had shovelled it's head. And I wish they did too.

Snakes are great, but I'd rather a snake died than a person.


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Sounds like it could have been a collette?


Just looking at pics now on the www, it looked like a Collette's but with the pattern only up the head end, and it was in Victoria. I think all the pictures I'm looking at are of adult snakes so it's hard to compare to the young one I saw. Wish I could have got a photo!


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

Some kind of crowned snake.. Or a juvenile brown snake? They have very varied patterns.


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## RevDaniel (Oct 20, 2007)

It's a case of bad luck to the snake. It is dead now and nothing can bring it back. Hopefully there will not be a next time or if there is it might be a little different.


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

Yes perhaps a juvi brown snake. This is a Peninsula brown snake, it looked like this but with some red.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

PhilK said:


> I'm not saying who PM'd me haha, there's no reason to get petty.
> 
> I understand that people are very into herps here (and I am too), but what really grinds my gears is peoples' love of an animal getting in the way of reason.
> 
> ...



Well - to start off with... What is in the way of reason here? 

How many people are bitten by snakes each year? show me some stats and then show me again how many die? Then show me again how many were bitten because they tried to kill or remove the snake?

People's fear and dislike are without reason, not the people here who have a reason to love!

Yes, snakes do bite - when they're disturbed... and 9 times out of 10 it's through stupidity... the other time is made up of accidental and wrong place at the wrong time...

I haven't gone and killed every shark I see - in fact, I throw most back if they're a by catch - and I have a friend who was killed by a shark - I caught a baby great white one day - I set it free... Why? Maybe it will kill a human.. maybe it will kill a seal? maybe it's doing what it does - yes it's sad... and that was a sad occassion - but he died doing what he loved, hunting for fish and paua - a shark saw him and perhaps mistook him for a seal... Who knows? 

So - people's fear are not founded in my mind... same with crocodiles.. less than 40 deaths in 200 years! And all those again from stupidity!

With the correct first aid you shoudl be safe from any snake bite. 

Now tell me again if you think I am in the wrong here... I'm not taking any sides, i am saying what I believe is right....


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

Just found this 

"In Australia there are about 3,000 snake bites per year, of which 200 to 500 receive antivenom; on average one or two will prove fatal. About half the deaths are due to bites from the brown snake; the rest mostly from tiger snake, taipan and death adder. Some deaths are sudden, however in fact it is uncommon to die within four hours of a snake bite."

http://www.usyd.edu.au/anaes/venom/snakebite.html


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

and I just found 3.2 deaths per year 'snake related'

Agreed, it's higher thanI anticipated - but a country of 20 million... hmmmm.. cars are far more fatal!

Children dressed appropriately and correctly warned stand a much greater chance of surviving - even in their own backyard!

Sorry Phil, I totally disagree wuth what you're saying.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

call it tiredness - but I can't believe some of the apathy on this site - borders shocking... I expected more out of you waruikazi - not that sort of sarcasm... usually you have something quite positive to say, but not so much this time. 

Chances are that snake would go on and lead a productive healthy and happy life... But not now...

I stand by what i said... The man should be reported and at the very least educated about his mistake.

This country is full of native species haters - crocodiles, roos, you name it - aussies hate it!


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

Mate, we're on the same side here. I'm not saying that I kill snakes or I'm happy about it. I'm giving the ignorant public a voice, and showing you their side of the argument. If you can't see both sides of an argument you shouldn't enter it mate. I _know_ there aren't many people who die of snake bite and I _know_ for the most part fear is unfounded etc etc etc. Doesn't change what Farmer Joe thinks. Nothing will change what they think. They see a snake, they kill it so it doesn't bite their son/daughter/livestock/dog... Again, I don't support it, I'm just saying it's what they do.

Call it tiredness, but the 'edit' function allows you to add to a pre-existing post slimy:lol:! Apathy/realism.. where do you draw the line? Yes. That snake could have leada productive life. Or it could have killed someone's kid, or it could have been eaten by a cat, or a kookaburra... This bloke killed it because that's what he's always done. You can report that 'til you're blue in the face, nobody is going to get him in trouble for killing a snake that was on his verandah or porch or whatever.. Fact.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

so take their side Phil... I don't agree - educate them!!! Then they're no longer the igronant public... most of those people have never been to a zoo and haven't had the joys of education... so why not us do it... 

All I know is in the same situation as yellow... I would have acted very differently... no matter who it was... so call me extreme - and I know you're on my side... and yes I have an ability to see both sides... but I don't agree that because it happens let it happen!

That sort of attitude is the apathy I talk about!


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

Once again I'll tell you that when I see it happen I _do_ educate them. And once _again_ I'll say I'm _not_ 'taking their side'! I also agree education is the best, and I do it whenever I can. All I'm saying is they have their reasons, and see us 'snake lovers' as bonkers. It's alot less effort for them to swing a shovel than to go and phone a relocater, and keep an eye on the snake 'til he gets there, you know?


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

personally I think it's easier to leave it alone entirely... but that's my choice of course!


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

But if you leave it alone entirely, how are you sure your kid won't step on it while playing with his trucks in the back yard?


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

oh god.. I need an answer for everything... You dress your child appropriately, you tell the child where you saw it... you warn the child about taking care, you keep a first aid kit... god, is it that tough?

You obviously don't have kids...


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

On that note, what is the actual recommended method of dealing with venomous snakes on the property? Call a snake relocater? If everyone did this wouldn't it be an absolutely booming business? I'm just curious.


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

Yes. I don't have kids... But I was a kid, and I know (as you probably do) that kids don't always listen to their parents or remember what they were told. Especially while engaged in play..

Kid goes out the back and plays in the grass with his car. The snake might be there. Maybe it wasn't before, but maybe it is now? The kid isn't looking for it, so all the education in the world can't help. He rolls over and it gets him? ..That's what happened to the family we knew. They told their kiddy there was a snake in the front yard and gave him boots and jeans and he went out the back to play.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

now apparently jeans are thick enough to avoid the fangs making contact with the skin... thus stopping venom... good call... secondly... grass should be short enough so the snake can easily be seen...

Thirdly... supervise your children... best you can...

Fourthly... have a first aid kit available and ready... 

Fifth... If they saw a snake out there - why didn't they call a relocater?

The day we had a tsunami warning my daughter and I had planned on going to town to a movie or a swim... but we couldn't go until the warning had passed... Common sense Phil.. common sense!


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

Secondly: kid was playing with a truck, not looking for a snake
Thirdly: can't always have an eye on your child
Fourthly: good point. But I'm not sure they new their first aid..? Not sure there..
Fifth: they didn't call a relocator because they took your approach "leaving it alone"

My common sense would tell me to keep my kid inside if there was a snake, but they must have had an error in judgement and it cost them dearly... All I'm saying is that many families have that fear, which is their reason for using a shovel.. For some people God knows they'd rather use a shovel than common sense.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

the supervision thing is oh so important... and clearly overlooked!

And thank you for repeating what we all know... people don't use common sense then they have the poor judgement of blaming someone/thing else!


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## PhilK (Oct 20, 2007)

Come on.. With supervision, you can't always be there. That's impossible! Letting your kid play in the yard is something most parents would do without supervising... That's an easy mistake to make.


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## slim6y (Oct 20, 2007)

did I say there for a second that I would leave my child unsupervised?

I mentioned it was oh so important.. and there it is - it is!

Personally playing in pairs etc is better - then someone can get help...

If that's out of the question... I will make sure my daughter is well supervised one way or the other.. easier with one kid I tell ya.. why people have two i don't know???


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## nervous (Oct 20, 2007)

sorry to say but it 100% your fault you could of told him to put the shovel down and told him to call a snake catcher 

after all as you said its your parents house now 
anyway you totally did the wrong thing in not protecting the reptiles we love or our native wildlife and for you to just stand by and watch tells me your a coward and dont deserve to own reptiles or any sought of wildlife!!!


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## falconboy (Oct 20, 2007)

PhilK said:


> Come on.. With supervision, you can't always be there. That's impossible! Letting your kid play in the yard is something most parents would do without supervising... That's an easy mistake to make.



Phil, you are fighting a loosing battle mate. There's too many 'extrememists' and fanatics on here for commonsense and logic to prevail, you should know that by now. :shock:


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## serenaphoenix (Oct 20, 2007)

Oh come on! Give Tamarin a break!!! What was she supposed to do? 

I'm on your side Tam, it's a tragedy - but not an uncommon one - and there was nothing you could do to stop it. I can just imagine the situation and it was probably dead before you even realised he had a shovel right?

And don't pull the self-righteous "it's illegal" crap... Hands up anyone here who has NEVER done ANYTHING illegal... No takers?


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## serenaphoenix (Oct 20, 2007)

Nervous - "sorry to say it but" ... you sound ignorant and naive....


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

nervous said:


> sorry to say but it 100% your fault you could of told him to put the shovel down and told him to call a snake catcher
> 
> after all as you said its your parents house now
> anyway you totally did the wrong thing in not protecting the reptiles we love or our native wildlife and for you to just stand by and watch tells me your a coward and dont deserve to own reptiles or any sought of wildlife!!!


As they are still living in the house I think it is still their house. By the time I'd tried to suggest what they could do he'd have already been having a go at the snake. It was very flighty and wasn't about to stick around while we waited for a relocater to arrive (it was actually moving towards the door to the house) - therefore I think the man would have basically ignored me while he did what he was intent on doing.
I asked earlier what is the recomended procedure - I live in suburban Melbourne so haven't had to deal with this sort of thing before. If it was a python, I'd have removed it myelf - I own a python and wouldn't dream of owning an elapid until I knew more about them etc. I believe I know enough to own a non-venomous species.
And like I said, I told him not to kill the snake. He already had the shovel and said "I know they are protected but not when they are near the family" and it was all over.
When I said in my initial thread that I feel it was my fault, I was referring to the fact that I announced that there was a snake, instead of keeping quiet, which led to the chain of events. Aside from that there was nothing I could have done to stop him.


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## nervous (Oct 20, 2007)

say what you say serena 

ino ppl have differant reactions to situations iwould off just handled it differantly..


sorry to yellow tamarin for my ignorance


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## moosenoose (Oct 20, 2007)

From my understanding there has been zero fatalities from Red Belly Blacks, those poor things cop it bad in the "lethal" snake catagory simply because of their appearance.

Nothing you could have done about it yellowtamarin, the shovel brigade are a dime a dozen. They aren't interested in forking out money for a snake catcher when a shovel can relocate it permanently (into the next life) at zero expense. I wouldn't worry about it, that's life.


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## ytamarin (Oct 20, 2007)

Everyone has their opinions, nervous. I guess I was asking for a debate by posting about this. I really just wanted to let off a bit of steam in a place where people understand why I was upset, as I don't know anyone in my circles who would really understand why it upset me.
Anyway I look forward to positive wild herp experiences in the future!


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## nervous (Oct 21, 2007)

well i hope your next herp experience is a better 1


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

serenaphoenix said:


> Oh come on! Give Tamarin a break!!! What was she supposed to do?
> 
> I'm on your side Tam, it's a tragedy - but not an uncommon one - and there was nothing you could do to stop it. I can just imagine the situation and it was probably dead before you even realised he had a shovel right?
> 
> And don't pull the self-righteous "it's illegal" crap... Hands up anyone here who has NEVER done ANYTHING illegal... No takers?



But I've never killed a snake!


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## $NaKe PiMp (Oct 21, 2007)

red bellies are not responsible for human deaths,there is no excuse to kill one there
a protected species
report his RED NECK a ss to the authoritories
and smack him in the head with a shovel


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## Snow1369 (Oct 21, 2007)

Reporting him to the authoroties is just going to waste tamarins time, it happens everyday, theres nothign that can be done.


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## NotoriouS (Oct 21, 2007)

i'm with Philk on this one..


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## Viridae (Oct 21, 2007)

And like phil said, I think there is a provision in the law for snakes that are close to human habitation. You don't expect someone to not shoot the dingo (for example) that is about to maul them just because they are protected. In the eyes of the public every snake could kill them - and it is perhaps better that way so people treat them with respect than knowing that some are harmless and not treating them with respect - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


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## Whisper2 (Oct 21, 2007)

i think you did well tamarins : )
i would have been bawling my eyes out but your handling this well. 
some of you should no that a snake is a snake in most peoples eyes.to them they are all the same.
and of course he's going to kill it, your an idiot if you think he's going to stop and look at the pretty blue sky and think 'hmmm, i dont think i will kill this one today, lets let it go free'. 
years of living on a farm will put you into a state of mind to kill anything you see as a threat to your family and livestock, whether that be the neighbours dog or a snake. 
sure we can educate him, spend hours with him telling him right from wrong but then, once he agrees its not better to kill the snake and we feel all smug and happy for making some one change, his neighbour will be out there with a shovel. 
cant change the past, snake is dead, farmer feels safe, tamarin feels sad. 
be happy in the knowledge that her parents wont be on that farm killing snakes unless its called for. : )


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

Again, this thread is filled with apathy and that typical aussie 'can't be done' attitude. Grow out of that - the more you think it the less that can be done!

C'mon - we've just had TWO threads that proved this country lacks a justice system, so let's see if we can begin to make a difference?

I agree that YT would cause tension between the families if she reported it - but the very least she could do is find out a way to encourage this behaviour stops - and that it never happens again. 

Come on - instantly think of all a snakes' good points... Tell him that! 

Then you can go on to tell him how good snake relocaters are....

Then you can tell him, if he's lucky, the snake relocater may even let him have a touch...  Now not many people get to touch a venomous snake - he'd be something of a speciality... just like us with our python bites - we're only i a small percentage on this planet that's been bitten by a snake!

So good luck YT - you've got your work cut out for ya! And so have we all - I've got the lucky privallage of shaping our young minds in the science class room - I don't think any of those classes would ever kill a snake now - and some used to come in with the 'only good snake is a dead snake' attitude 

So it can be done!


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## Whisper2 (Oct 21, 2007)

slim6y, please educate me on all the good points of a wild RBB or copperhead. 

all i can think of is they are pretty.


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

Sorry I just thought maybe we should turn this thread positive and give you ideas on snakes' good points...

1: They clear Oz of varmin  rats, mice, and other pests.

2: They very rarely strike at people - remember there's only 3.2 deaths per year on average - and in those cases they're usually from stupidity and trying to kill the snake.

3: They're quiet, usually unnoticed and very timid.

You might even want to explain that for every snake he sees, there's probably 30 others he doesn't - so imagine that... Has anyone been bitten by the 30 he misses?

Anyone can continue with these good points we can use to educate the not so fortunate snake dislikers of Australia.


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

Whisper2 said:


> slim6y, please educate me on all the good points of a wild RBB or copperhead.
> 
> all i can think of is they are pretty.



I hope you like rats and mice - because without wild snakes - including RBBS and coppers, collettes etc - there'd be a hell explosion of rats and mice.. they spread very nasty diseases - snakes do not! 

To be honest, I'm glad you're 16, because there's a chance you've got something to learn here.

Don't be naieve about our snakes, they're a valuable resource and much better than something pretty to look at. Without snakes this country would be a very different country indeed.

they keep the population intact... and think - some snakes even eat other snakes (BHP etc).

Keep an open mind when you're dealing with anything people don't like - generally it's because they don't understand!


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## Whisper2 (Oct 21, 2007)

all very true. 
but turn the glass the other way in the light and it will show you a whole new set of colours.
please feel free to go out and change the entire counrtys feelings on snakes, we sure need that to happen. 
then take a look on the amount of people that listened and put it into practice. 
just because someone says to do it dosent mean that you will. 
i am encouraging protection of snakes, it may not seem that way but i am just a s passionate about them as others on this site. just trying to show that the amount of stubborn people who will not change their ways is large. the law cannot always protect things and stop people. : )


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## Whisper2 (Oct 21, 2007)

this guy killed a single snake, that dosent make it right but it's not going to shatter the entire breeding system of snakes. 
you can ask people to change as much as you want, the law can be a tool but not many will listen. 
all this pointless arguing about it will help us but not the snake that is dead or the hundreds others that will die one way or another. 
just trying to point out that running up to the guys farm with a police and swat team will do more bad than good. one snake may have to die for the rest to live.


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## ytamarin (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm pretty sure everyone who has posted here, whether they agree with me or think I was wrong not to report the guy or whack him with the shovel, is esentially on the same boat here. We all know he shouldn't have done what he did, and that it would be great if something could be done about it.
I remembered this morning something my dad told me after we left the house. He said the man mentioned one of the parents of the snake lived near the house next door, he has seen it. Nobody lives in that house, yet he hasn't gone over there to hunt down what could be the breeding mother and kill it. So it seems he will only kill a snake if it appears to him to be a direct threat. I think that's a positive. It also tells me that these people are already educated about snakes and their positives. 
I bet this man already knows that they are great for keeping the mice at bay, I bet he knows all their positive attributes, "but not when they are near the family". I honestly don't think much can be done to change this attitude in a middle-aged adult who has grown up thinking this way.


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

Ok - it's been said before YT and Whisper - and there's no point in repeating it over and over again.

Whisper - to show passion or be passionate about something wouldn't mean sitting back and saying it's going to happen... you can turn a blind eye all you like - but that's not passion!

I'd love to see the world's attitude change to many things, including whales right down to christmas beetles!

Even in some cases bacteria (yes, you heard me right, bacteria - our over cleansing society is leading to deficiencies amongst our children and disease is become prevalant).

I couldn't imagine an Australia without snakes - In fact I have read that South Australia in some parts has the highest amount of predators per sq km than anywhere in the world - most of those predators are snakes!

Anyways - I am glad there's a sharing of passion - but with that passion comes a small responsibility of sharing that passion and educating the ones around you - so pack up the shovels and take your snakes over to them YT (sorry, you do have snakes right?) - Whisper - make sure your friends all know about snakes - when they come over let them play with your ones (again if you have some).

It's simple to do and it saves snakes!

And changing the way we think is something humans can do - we have this ability to learn and continually learn. Hell, we've changed the world's perspective on CFC's - and htey were cheap and easy to use - now... you won't find a single item in Australia that uses CFC's (that has been built after the 80s). So the world's mind can change!


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## ytamarin (Oct 21, 2007)

Yeah I do, the non-venomous variety. I'm sure he'd be happy to meet a python, but we generally don't have pythons on Victorian farms.
Education is definitely more important where the land is shared by pythons and elapids - I bet there are plenty of farmers who kill any slithering animal they see near the house without checking to see if it is dangerous. If he'd killed a scrubbie or something, then there's a major issue with his education.
Whether or not this particular case was a lost cause Slim6y you will be happy to know that my friends and family get sick of me talking about reptiles, and I have taught a number of people that not all snakes are venomous (or poisonous!) and debunked other commonly held negative beliefs about our reptilian friends.


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

haha.. good on yer YT - tho... There's definitely something wrong with the education if they kill a scrubby in Victoria... I think identification worries haha! Or someone's escaped pet!

Anyways - that's what passion and hobbies are all about!

Dispelling myths and education!

Keep it up - you may have lost htis one, but I'm sure you'll make sure that you won't lose again


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## Retic (Oct 21, 2007)

I think you will find that what he did would be found to be perfectly acceptable to the authorities, it was a potential threat to his family in his eyes and he eliminated the threat. 
When I was in Geelong years ago a bloke dug up the floor of his chicken shed and killed a Tiger Snake in front of the the press, guess what happened to him ? He got his photo on the front of the paper.
This happens every single day, we will not educate the people who think the only good snake is a dead snake. 



slim6y said:


> OMG - what were you thinknig.. why didn't you tell the man to stop? Sorry, but I would have got that shovel and whacked him one!
> 
> You're going to find a lot of flack on this thread me thinks...
> 
> In fact so much so that people may be requesting you call the Victoria EPA what ever they're called and have that man fined! It's an offence to harm a native animal!


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## ytamarin (Oct 21, 2007)

lol yeah I meant, if there were scrubbies...


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

I disagree boa - the whole point of education is to educate those people - and i bring back the point of CFC's...


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## ytamarin (Oct 21, 2007)

Right I'm off to a local festival now (with an educational reptile display)


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## Retic (Oct 21, 2007)

At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, the fact is that the vast majority don't care what kind of snake it is, it's a snake therefore it will kill them or their kids. 
I caught my first Tiger Snake when I was maybe 8, I had no real idea what it was but I am extremely passionate about them but I also live in the real world and calls for this bloke to be reported are just absurd, the reply would be he was entitled to protect his home and family. 
Of course it's tragic.


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

So you tell me boa - when you go to a house to relocate a snake, dangerous or not, do you give a speil about how they did the right thing by calling you? They tell their friends... and so on... It does work... I know you can't change the world.. but you can change just the one... and that's where it starts.

Everyone tries to think so big before they've even looked at the small... Start off one at a time... 

Anyways, boa, you do a great job I am sure, and you are one of the most passionate people on this site without a doubt. But what's the point of all that passion if it's just bottled up inside hehe 

One less person who kills a snake is probably a good start!


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## prealongus (Oct 21, 2007)

Getting back to the question, depending on where in country vic that farm is, but sounds very much like a copperhead to me. Have a look at some of their pics about.

As for the legalities you will find that its perfectly legal. No authorty in oz would ever take action against the guy. If someone reported it n outlined the details they wouldnt even bother talking to him.Its near his home he saw what he thought was a threat doesnt matter if it was or not he saw it that way and "defended" so to speak himself. Case closed. This practise is extremely common next to no farmer will pay for someone to come out and relocate it.


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm gonna put my 2 cents worth in, and I'll probably cop a flaming for it.. but hey... it'll take the heat off Yellow.. she didn't do anything wrong.

I live on a property. I LOVE my snakes. I also have 3 and 5 year old kids, horses, dogs and sheep. If we see a RRB in my house yard, we remove it. They're great to have around. But if we see a Browny near my house... bye-bye!!!!! You can educate your children, and adults alike, but a Brown is a Brown in my opinion. 

A little 11 year old girl on a neighboring property was killed a few months back by a Brown snake in her garden. 45 mins from bite to death. Where is your 4 hours in that scenario Slim6y????? She *was* educated about snakes. But when one is hiding under foliage, and strikes with no warning or presence... all the education in the world amounts to exactly jack ****!!!!!! _You_ go and tell _her_ family that they shouldn't kill snakes they see near their children. You go and tell them they are murders and should be locked up!! This family still has other young children.. you go and tell them that they shouldn't do everything in their power to protect their babies. When you live 100k into the bush... sometimes waiting for someone to come and remove a snake is too late.

I live with snakes around my property every day. I know the difference between a RRB and a Brown. You can't judge someone for wanting to protect their family, the guy probably had no idea of what sort of snake it was, only that it could have harmed his family. 

I'm not saying that I like it. I hate the thought of people just killing snakes willy nilly... but I can understand it. We are the lucky few that know a little about these creatures... Even some of the members on this site don't know the differences between the elapids, so how could we possibly expect *non*-herpers to know the difference.


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## Retic (Oct 21, 2007)

I never relocate snake, it would be illegal for me to do it without a license 
I went to the house of one of the mothers at our boys school the other day to look around and tell them how to make the yard less snake friendly therefore less dangerous for snakes ironically. This woman wouldn't kill a snake but was a little concerned about her young children, rightly so. I gave her a few tips which hopefully will help both the snakes and the children.
Don't mistake my realism with apathy, I will at every opportunity spread the good word BUT one thing I have learned over the years is that SOME people see things in black and white, live snake bad and dead snake good. These people aren't interested in what kind of snake it.
Believe me I don't keep the passion bottled up 



slim6y said:


> So you tell me boa - when you go to a house to relocate a snake, dangerous or not, do you give a speil about how they did the right thing by calling you? They tell their friends... and so on... It does work... I know you can't change the world.. but you can change just the one... and that's where it starts.
> 
> Everyone tries to think so big before they've even looked at the small... Start off one at a time...
> 
> ...


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## Bung-Eye (Oct 21, 2007)

sounds to me like you didn't have much of a choice yellowtamarin. all these suggestions that you should report him are pretty pointless too, no matter how many times your report him there's just no way anybody's going to do anything about it.

damn shame you had to watch though.


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## cockney red (Oct 21, 2007)

*Well said grumpy. Well said YT. The real world is certainly calling for some people on this site.*


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

Grumpy - I read about that case - was a misfourtunate accident...

cockney - I am real world... The fact I see that a live snake is a good snake probably removes me from reality... But you know - no one on this planet will share the same opinions on everything... So therefore what constitutes realism is purely imaginative anyway.

Back to reality now 

Read back and consider education again cockney - you may find that is a real world answer to many real world problems 

And well said Boa - there's a real world person...


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## MoreliaMatt (Oct 21, 2007)

good on ya slim6y, agree with everything youve said here!


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## $NaKe PiMp (Oct 21, 2007)

GrumpyTheSnake said:


> I'm gonna put my 2 cents worth in, and I'll probably cop a flaming for it.. but hey... it'll take the heat off Yellow.. she didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> I live on a property. I LOVE my snakes. I also have 3 and 5 year old kids, horses, dogs and sheep. If we see a RRB in my house yard, we remove it. They're great to have around. But if we see a Browny near my house... bye-bye!!!!! You can educate your children, and adults alike, but a Brown is a Brown in my opinion.
> 
> ...




i remember the story on the news about that young girl up tamworth way,who felt a prick on her ankle
and didnt know what it was,and within 45 minutes was dead.
this is the most unfortunate case ever,
luckily for most this is an extremely rare incident.
it would have far greater probability of a child being hit or backed over by a car.
I suppose we should mainly concentrate on keeping round the house snake unfreindly
like having no long grass and keeping hiding places to a minimum.
but they still will come sometimes when foraging for food perhaps
unfortunantly and you got to do what you have to do and if you cant catch one that gets in your house you may have to kill it
i would worry about other things that could harm your child more though
but protecting your family is important


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## MoreliaMatt (Oct 21, 2007)

PiMp said:


> unfortunantly and you got to do what you have to do and if you cant catch one that gets in your house you may have to kill it



im still yet to see a really valid reason for killing a snake, even in or around a house....

sure if it had a child cornered and was trying to maliciously attack it then fine..... but that does not happen! lol


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

Incidentally grumpy - i never wrote that scenario about snake bites and fatalities... 

Again, as Matt just pointed out - most snake bites occur because of people handling them or trying to kill them. The rare few that get accidental bites are often treated (3000 - 5000 cases per year) of that - there's around about 0.1% who actually die!

That's not a terrifying statistic.

Im not going to rank it against road accidents etc - because that's worthless info. 

but that one girl, 45 mins to death is what most would call an extreme case.

Remember last year there was that guy who "Steve Irwined" it - captured a brown snake and was bitten. He died a couple of days later. Firtsly he did all the wrong things - (from what I remember) - he attacked a snake, after bitten he didn't take the right first aid precautions, he moved (and later collapsed on a cricket field) etc etc... Now, his case was relatively normal.

I see many adverts on TV trying to protect drivers - no drink driving, wear your saftey belts etc etc... Do I see one on there saying beware of snakes? No... Why? Because they're not a threat!

And you know what's more - it takes very little to do the right thing - do you all have your first aid kits? Do you all know what to do if you're bitten or someone around you is? Have you all done a first aid course in case resuscitation is required?

So stop blaming the innocent snakes and start doing the right thing!


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Oct 21, 2007)

Sorry Slim6y if I got the person wrong 

This is one of those times when not all of us are going to agree. I understand both sides, but I think this is just going to be one of those never ending debates. If I can let a snake live, I will do everything in my power do to so. But if it comes down to the brass nuts of a situation, then I will do what I have to do. 

I am actually an SES member, so I do have my first aid certificate, and I know exactly what to do for a snake bite. Not everyone does though.


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## slim6y (Oct 21, 2007)

GrumpyTheSnake said:


> Sorry Slim6y if I got the person wrong



No, I posted it I just didn't write it - i copied it off a site - i think that's what you're talking about 

I linked to it to.

I don't mind agreeing to disagree, but I can't take apathy as a reason to disagree - that's all. 

To be honest, I know we'd all try to save a snake, but I am suprised by the comments made here. I don't get upset if people don't agree with me - I just think they need their head read (haha - note it's a joke).

Anyways - always fin to get a debate with two sides - or sometimes more... And this has been a good one...


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## $NaKe PiMp (Oct 21, 2007)

MoreliaMatt said:


> im still yet to see a really valid reason for killing a snake, even in or around a house....
> 
> sure if it had a child cornered and was trying to maliciously attack it then fine..... but that does not happen! lol




i agree with you dude,but theres many who dont 
i feel we can live with any creature in harmony with out having to kill it,
cause of the one in 10 million chance it may bite a child.
I know these creatures ive spent my whole life facinated by them
there not out to get us
there not going to chase you

people are just fearful

i choose not to be and take great joy in observing them


lets worry more about cars running your kids over or them drowning in a pool
or dam
the things that happen in far greater frequency than an accidental snake bite


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