# Breeding snakes just because



## Frozenmouse (Jul 10, 2012)

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on people breeding things like normal coastals or darwin carpets or low quality honey/brown jungles, standard beardies ect
I see for sale adds bumped for three or four pages until they are nearly given away.
Is there any point no one will pay anything worth while for them so they will end up rotting in a petshop with a stupid price on them or something not good anyway?


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## Jacknifejimmy (Jul 10, 2012)

There is a general market flood these days as far as standard varieties, and as such of course market prices drop. 
That said some people (myself included) just do it for the joy of husbandry i.e. successfully raising and then breeding a certain species. Knowing you have a solid grasp on the proper care of another creature and all things associated with that.

I feel if you're in it purely for money, then you're probably better off buying a Starbucks franchise...


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## Mo Deville (Jul 10, 2012)

as far as quality goes, personally for me its all about the highest of quality, i'm extremely picky, if there is a certain animal that i want, i will try to find the "best of the best" IMO, even if it takes years to find it, if im not 100% happy with it then i won't get it, same goes for breeding, but thats just me.


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## yommy (Jul 10, 2012)

these species offer the keeper a learning tool for breeding and everything that goes with it. I've got my collection to where it is today by learning the craft with coastals and childreni. Though i no longer keep those species.

Its a sad day when you see a reptile under $100 as a $50 dollar animal just become disposable if they have issues. easier to buy another for that price then pay for vet services etc. that the issue i dont like with dirt cheap animals.... jmo


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## Frozenmouse (Jul 10, 2012)

Jacknifejimmy said:


> There is a general market flood these days as far as standard varieties, and as such of course market prices drop.
> That said some people (myself included) just do it for the joy of husbandry i.e. successfully raising and then breeding a certain species. Knowing you have a solid grasp on the proper care of another creature and all things associated with that.
> 
> I feel if you're in it purely for money, then you're probably better off buying a Starbucks franchise...


You contradict yourself , flooding a market with animals that are not wanted is that the joy of husbandry? , if you care for them don't breed them , just a thought. Dont be tight and practice the joys of husbandry on higher quality animals that people will buy and care for . Maybe you should look into starbucks lol.


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## Skelhorn (Jul 10, 2012)

Not everyone can afford a pure bred or perfected patterned snake/pythong/lizard however. I beleive if marketed properly then they will sell. If I was a 15 year old and wanted a python but had a limit of $500 its pretty hard to buy everything for that. But pick up a normal/dull patterned coastal or darwin for under $100 (as cheap as $50) then I am a happy boy.
Each to their own. As said above, more of a hobby and a joy then actually making any Dosh or coming even from dull patterned snakeys!


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## Khagan (Jul 10, 2012)

Everyone has gotta start somewhere i guess. But i agree, people shouldn't breed something 'just cause they can'. I'd like to think people would only pair up the best animals they can source, rather than chucking together anything possible to breed as much as possible just cause they can.

Cheap average animals are good for if you're just getting into things, or not so much fussed over looks, but there is only so many that are needed.


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## TheCheshireCat (Jul 10, 2012)

I think a few people in this thread have displayed perfectly why the wild looking pythons are worth nothing these days.
The simple fact is most people don't want wild looking pythons, they would rather pay more for a line which looks nothing like it's wild cousins.
That begs the question what exactly does "top quality" mean in this hobby? It certainly seems to refer more to their looks than anything else these days.

I honestly don't think there are many Australian pythons (man made or otherwise) that can compare to the beauty of a high yellow diamond or a nice black and gold jungle.


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## Red-Ink (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm trying to create my ideal snakes from the stock I have... bound to be some by product as I go along. Unfortunately If I have to sell them for $100 or less so be it, possibly even give them away or trades for snakey food or husbandry equipment if it gets that bad. Nothing I can do about the market unfortunately....


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## Waterrat (Jul 10, 2012)

"Market" is an entity. Breeders creating and flooding the market with animals are real people that we "could do something about" but realistically, we can't because there are too many of them. The hobby is flooded with breeders, they have outgrown the market. An act of self-destruction?
Bit philosophical but true.


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## phantomreptiles (Jul 10, 2012)

The market is flooded at the moment and my jungles are at a very low price, but in saying that I would not of breed them had I not being able to provide proper care for them and will keep them until a suitable home is found. Yes the price is low, but I still try to ensure they are going to an appropiate home as best I can.

Just to add, I will keep them forever if I am unable to find a suitable home.


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## Mo Deville (Jul 10, 2012)

maybe most breeders should own a lace monitor or two, nothing would go to waste and its a good way to keep you collection at a controllable size if you can't sell off what you don't want and keep what you specifically want for your projects, its an idea!

HEY, thats a really good idea actually,lol don't know why i didn't think of that earlier!


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 10, 2012)

This thread reminds me of people that just want to breed their kitty kats (or dogs or horses and everything else) because they want to experience the thrill of seeing kitties being born...

No thought whatsoever about what will become of the baby kitties once here and eating and shi....tting and loosing their appeal as they grow.

How hard is it to move animals that have (thoughtlessly) been bred with the end result of finding homes near impossible

Cheers
Sandee


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## Chanzey (Jul 10, 2012)

Not everyone starts breeding top quality snakes? I'm sure most of the breeders on here that breed awesome snakes didn't always produce ones like that? 

What do you want? people to buy expensive snakes and sell expensive snakes?


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## ghosts (Jul 10, 2012)

Chanzey said:


> Not everyone starts breeding top quality snakes? I'm sure most of the breeders on here that breed awesome snakes didn't always produce ones like that?



Its funny how its ok to flood the market if you breed "top quality" snakes, but not if you breed normal snakes.... do you realize those top quality snakes you see are pick of the clutch they don't all look like that?


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## junglepython2 (Jul 10, 2012)

The big commercial breeders are as much at fault for flooding the market if not more so then the smaller hobby breeders.


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## Jacknifejimmy (Jul 10, 2012)

Frozenmouse said:


> You contradict yourself , flooding a market with animals that are not wanted is that the joy of husbandry? , if you care for them don't breed them , just a thought. Dont be tight and practice the joys of husbandry on higher quality animals that people will buy and care for . Maybe you should look into starbucks lol.



I meant simply that this hobby has grown massively over the last ten or so years. As such, there is more available and at more reasonable prices - like any other kind of market. 
At the moment I'm raising 2 (possibly) het for hypo Bredli(Bredli being my favorite species) to breed later on as I find the hypo variation amazing and would like to see if they are. This is my first go at breeding and like people have stated, as a first timer work within you finances and with easier breeds. 
Not everyone can start out - and I'm sure successful breeders now didn't - with albino darwins for example.


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## Chanzey (Jul 10, 2012)

That's what I'm trying to say, it's good to have variety. Because I know as a new keeper starting out, there's now way I would of paid over $1000 for a first snake.


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## stimigex (Jul 10, 2012)

Jacknifejimmy said:


> I meant simply that this hobby has grown massively over the last ten or so years. As such, there is more available and at more reasonable prices - like any other kind of market.
> At the moment I'm raising 2 (possibly) het for hypo Bredli(Bredli being my favorite species) to breed later on as I find the hypo variation amazing and would like to see if they are. This is my first go at breeding and like people have stated, as a first timer work within you finances and with easier breeds.
> Not everyone can start out - and I'm sure successful breeders now didn't - with albino darwins for example.



Het for hypo, Well that made my night :lol:


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## ghosts (Jul 10, 2012)

stimigex said:


> Het for hypo, Well that made my night :lol:



he did say 'possibly'


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## Frozenmouse (Jul 10, 2012)

Het for hypo sounds pricey , lol


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## junglepython2 (Jul 10, 2012)

stimigex said:


> Het for hypo, Well that made my night :lol:



I'm glad I wasn't the only one to have a chuckle at that.


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## Magpie (Jul 10, 2012)

I got no problem with people breeding "normals". 
As long as they look after them until re-homing them, why should it be anyones problem?


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## ghosts (Jul 10, 2012)

Magpie said:


> I got no problem with people breeding "normals".
> As long as they look after them until re-homing them, why should it be anyones problem?



because now the rest of us cant charge big $$$ like we use to...


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## TheReptileCove (Jul 10, 2012)

junglejags said:


> because now the rest of us cant charge big $$$ like we use to...



You could still charge big bucks, if you waited long enough, they would eventually sell. It is a domino affect where someone is selling theres for say $150 but sees someone selling theres at $120 so drop the price to $100 and so on.


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## MSD Reptiles (Jul 10, 2012)

yommy said:


> Its a sad day when you see a reptile under $100 as a $50 dollar animal just become disposable if they have issues. easier to buy another for that price then pay for vet services etc. that the issue i dont like with dirt cheap animals.... jmo



I dont agree with this at all, but this is a personal opinion. I have a strong attatchment to my animals regardless of their purchase price. We brought a lop earred bunny for $25 off dollars and i just spent $100 at the vet for it... plus $200 for a decent sized enclosure. Same with pythons.... i buy partial for appearance, but at the end of the day i find you form an attachment that is far greater than a $$$ figure placed by a vet or otherwise. 

'Entry' level prices and animals are a good way to get people truly interested in the hobby. I think they have their place. Regardless of what enters my collection, my first python (Wheatbelt Stimson) will always have a special spot....


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## Jacknifejimmy (Jul 10, 2012)

stimigex said:


> Het for hypo, Well that made my night :lol:



Both have one hypo parent, and very reduced black. what else do you call them?
Not being a jerk, I'd actually like to know...
Can they breed hypo's or just more reduced blacks?


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## junglepython2 (Jul 10, 2012)

Jacknifejimmy said:


> Both have one hypo parent, and very reduced black. what else do you call them?
> Not being a jerk, I'd actually like to know...
> Can they breed hypo's or just more reduced blacks?



A normal bredli with a hypo parent.

Het implies the trait is controlled by one gene and breeding will have predicatable outcomes. Hypomelanism in bredli is not controlled by one gene so therefore so such thing as a het for hypo bredli.


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## Mo Deville (Jul 10, 2012)

i was only speaking for myself and what i look for in my animals, i don't have a problem with anyone else doing what they do, its all personal choice and you do what you like, if you like "normals" there is nothing wrong with that go for it, if you think you can handle breeding them then go for it, and i mean that in a nice way, each to their own, it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

Mo


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## ravan (Jul 10, 2012)

not everyone can afford to have 'show quality' and spectacular animals... 
Some like to have them because they enjoy them, want companionship, etc, etc. Just because you think it's ugly, doesn't mean that everyone else has the same opinion and standards. 

why do people breed dogs or cats? or every other animal?


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## Jacknifejimmy (Jul 10, 2012)

junglepython2 said:


> A normal bredli with a hypo parent.
> 
> Het implies the trait is controlled by one gene and breeding will have predicatable outcomes. Hypomelanism in bredli is not controlled by one gene so therefore so such thing as a het for hypo bredli.



Thank you. I just learnt something. Kinda what I'm here for!


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## Mo Deville (Jul 10, 2012)

ravan said:


> not everyone can afford to have 'show quality' and spectacular animals...
> Some like to have them because they enjoy them, want companionship, etc, etc. Just because you think it's ugly, doesn't mean that everyone else has the same opinion and standards.
> 
> why do people breed dogs or cats? or every other animal?



yeah and thats totally cool. 

Higher quality animals can be expensive yes, you will have to pay $$$ if you really want it or can afford it, but not always, sometimes you can get lucky, i'v seen some pretty nice animals on here and other places that have sold for a lower price, some people can't wait and just buy the first thing that comes their way.


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## KaotikJezta (Jul 10, 2012)

What is a higher quality animal, one that comes from generations of inbreeding to perfect a colour/pattern, or crossbred back to snakes that may or may not have a genetic fault. Might be better looking in some peoples opinion but not necessarily higher quality from a health point of view. I think it is great that people still want to breed normal coloured/patterned snakes. If everyone bred for 'quality', normal, wild looking animals would disappear from the hobby completely. Why does reptile keeping always have to be about money and status. Maybe I am naive to have thought maybe it would be different.


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## Mo Deville (Jul 10, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> What is a higher quality animal, one that comes from generations of inbreeding to perfect a colour/pattern, or crossbred back to snakes that may or may not have a genetic fault. Might be better looking in some peoples opinion but not necessarily higher quality from a health point of view. I think it is great that people still want to breed normal coloured/patterned snakes. If everyone bred for 'quality', normal, wild looking animals would disappear from the hobby completely. Why does reptile keeping always have to be about money and status. Maybe I am naive to have thought maybe it would be different.



IMO "quality" doesn't have to be about the and most expensive. Out of a litter or clutch there will always be the pick of the litter which will be of "higher quality" for a start. If there is an animal that has certain colour/pattern that your personally looking for then you may have to pay more.


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## moosenoose (Jul 11, 2012)

Hardly any such thing as for "the love of it" these days. Early on snakes were traded within breeding circles for free. Personally I'd do just fine trading between people i know for the animals I want. And have done. Nothing wrong with breeding Coastals or the like IMHO. I was never in it to make money. Never have been. Good luck to those who choose to do so. All the power to them. Quite frankly the prospect of doing so for profit is too much of a headache for me. I prefer to keep the collection small and manageable.


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## KaotikJezta (Jul 11, 2012)

mo-deville said:


> IMO "quality" doesn't have to be about the and most expensive. Out of a litter or clutch there will always be the pick of the litter which will be of "higher quality" for a start. If there is an animal that has certain colour/pattern that your personally looking for then you may have to pay more.



Well, I will never get the snake I really want as it is, with any luck, frolicking free in the coastal bush of Urunga, NSW. It is a wild black and white coastal that adopted us for a few weeks when I was living out bush. I can honestly say it is the most stunning snake I have ever seen and I have not seen one that comes anywhere close to it in captivity. I feel privileged that it chose to spend a few weeks with us on its travels.


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## bk201 (Jul 11, 2012)

Sad days, many of the smaller skinks you simply cannot get on license because they would not sell for much. Some people would see these as "disposable" reptiles but others like myself would almost kill to be able to keep some of these species that are simply not available because they wont make breeders money. Prices limit reptile keeping, those deemed worthless eventually stop being available.


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## Mo Deville (Jul 11, 2012)

Red-Ink said:


> I'm trying to create my ideal snakes from the stock I have... bound to be some by product as I go along. Unfortunately If I have to sell them for $100 or less so be it, possibly even give them away or trades for snakey food or husbandry equipment if it gets that bad. Nothing I can do about the market unfortunately....



how about laccie? good excuse to keep one red :lol: i don't know vic laws tho.


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## Red-Ink (Jul 11, 2012)

mo-deville said:


> how about laccie? good excuse to keep one red :lol: i don't know vic laws tho.



It's crossed my mind once or twice mate , don't have the funds or the room though to build a nice outdoor enclosure for it. Heck don't even have room for BHPs... Yeah we can keep lacies here with no probs, just on the advance licence which I already have.


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## Frozenmouse (Jul 11, 2012)

My collection runs at a huge profit because i choose my species wisely . This does not mean i make a living from it . But as far as how much i make and how much they cost they are in the black buy miles.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 11, 2012)

Even though I still classify myself as just an owner with snakes, I am looking into informaiton and asking questions to help aid the care and husbandry of my animals. Some of my purchases have been selective, some have not. I'm already preparing myself for any future breeding by getting the right equipment and such for any projects, but right now my collection of animals is a mixed one with an assortment of some ideas here and there for possible projects, but nothing solid. I have 2 or 3 females almost at breeding age yet I have no males for them, i.e. My Wenlock Jungle, HY Diamond and semi striped Coastal, because I cannot find the right males for them, or have not as yet or may never do so. 

If I am wanting to experiment and learn, I may have to cross them with my first male at breeding age which will be an SXR Gammon intergrade. Many will disagree about it. Most probably will not buy the crosses. Am I wanting to do it for the money? No. So how else am I going to get experience? Wait 30 years to find the perfect pure mates for my females? I doubt it. The only way I see myself learning is getting hands on experience in the hobby, possibly ending up with animals, as I said, that no one would possibly want. Seriously I don't know anyone who would want a Gammon crossed with one of the three females I have anyway. 

But its not my intention to flood any markets with less quality animals, i.e. crosses (some though are very good quality and very pretty animals), there are others out there like me, novices and pros alike who experiment and learn and the market ends up with all sorts of things, not just pures. I reckon that in the end we can only blame ourselves there for the love of the hobby. But then that does not explain the snake farmers who are just breeding for the money and not the love of the hobby.


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## Darlyn (Jul 11, 2012)

Pretty sure the snake will behave like a snake regardless of how much it cost.
The more snakes on the market, the more people can experience the pleasure of owning one.
Unfortunately some that remain unwanted will be culled, this already occurs in the industry anyway.
Also some owners will put little effort into their "new pet" because they see it as little worth, this also occurs already.


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## KaotikJezta (Jul 11, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> Even though I still classify myself as just an owner with snakes, I am looking into informaiton and asking questions to help aid the care and husbandry of my animals. Some of my purchases have been selective, some have not. I'm already preparing myself for any future breeding by getting the right equipment and such for any projects, but right now my collection of animals is a mixed one with an assortment of some ideas here and there for possible projects, but nothing solid. I have 2 or 3 females almost at breeding age yet I have no males for them, i.e. My Wenlock Jungle, HY Diamond and semi striped Coastal, because I cannot find the right males for them, or have not as yet or may never do so.
> 
> If I am wanting to experiment and learn, I may have to cross them with my first male at breeding age which will be an SXR Gammon intergrade. Many will disagree about it. Most probably will not buy the crosses. Am I wanting to do it for the money? No. So how else am I going to get experience? Wait 30 years to find the perfect pure mates for my females? I doubt it. The only way I see myself learning is getting hands on experience in the hobby, possibly ending up with animals, as I said, that no one would possibly want. Seriously I don't know anyone who would want a Gammon crossed with one of the three females I have anyway.
> 
> But its not my intention to flood any markets with less quality animals, i.e. crosses (some though are very good quality and very pretty animals), there are others out there like me, novices and pros alike who experiment and learn and the market ends up with all sorts of things, not just pures. I reckon that in the end we can only blame ourselves there for the love of the hobby. But then that does not explain the snake farmers who are just breeding for the money and not the love of the hobby.



By Gammon Ranges integrade do you mean Gammon Ranges carpet that they can't decide whether to classify as imbricata or Murray Darling, if so why on earth would you cross it with any of your other snakes. It is considered a conservation species due to it's extremely limited wild range. I have a trio of them and they are beautiful snakes, please don't cross them, that is not learning amd you yourself have already said no-one will want them so what will you do with these crosses, How hard can it be to get pure mates for the females you have mentioned it is not like any of them are rare? Throwing 2 different species of snake together just for the hands on experience is just irresponsible.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 11, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> Even though I still classify myself as just an owner with snakes, I am looking into informaiton and asking questions to help aid the care and husbandry of my animals. Some of my purchases have been selective, some have not. I'm already preparing myself for any future breeding by getting the right equipment and such for any projects, but right now my collection of animals is a mixed one with an assortment of some ideas here and there for possible projects, but nothing solid. I have 2 or 3 females almost at breeding age yet I have no males for them, i.e. My Wenlock Jungle, HY Diamond and semi striped Coastal, because I cannot find the right males for them, or have not as yet or may never do so.
> 
> If I am wanting to experiment and learn, I may have to cross them with my first male at breeding age which will be an SXR Gammon intergrade. Many will disagree about it. Most probably will not buy the crosses. Am I wanting to do it for the money? No. So how else am I going to get experience? Wait 30 years to find the perfect pure mates for my females? I doubt it. The only way I see myself learning is getting hands on experience in the hobby, possibly ending up with animals, as I said, that no one would possibly want. Seriously I don't know anyone who would want a Gammon crossed with one of the three females I have anyway.
> 
> But its not my intention to flood any markets with less quality animals, i.e. crosses (some though are very good quality and very pretty animals), there are others out there like me, novices and pros alike who experiment and learn and the market ends up with all sorts of things, not just pures. I reckon that in the end we can only blame ourselves there for the love of the hobby. But then that does not explain the snake farmers who are just breeding for the money and not the love of the hobby.



At least someone who breeds for money generaly wisely chooses there breeding stock and creates offpsring that can be moved on. Much better then pumping out dozens of mongrels with no forethought just for the 'experience'


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 11, 2012)

junglepython2 said:


> At least someone who breeds for money generaly wisely chooses there breeding stock and creates offpsring that can be moved on. Much better then pumping out dozens of mongrels with no forethought just for the 'experience'


Never said I was actually going to do anything you know, those are just ideas. Ideas can be changes or evolved. People who breed for money shouldn't even be allowed to have the animals. Not all of them are wise and nor can you prove it either.


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## KaotikJezta (Jul 11, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> Never said I was actually going to do anything you know, those are just ideas. Ideas can be changes or evolved. People who breed for money shouldn't even be allowed to have the animals. Not all of them are wise and nor can you prove it either.



Oh please, stop playing innocent. One of your very first post on APS was about you and your friend wanting to start a snake breeding business, the aim of a business is to make money.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 11, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> Never said I was actually going to do anything you know, those are just ideas. Ideas can be changes or evolved. People who breed for money shouldn't even be allowed to have the animals. Not all of them are wise and nor can you prove it either.



Why shouldn't they be allowed to have the animals? And I never said they are all wise...... but if they are making money they are likely wisely chose which species and specimens to work with and not crossing anything just for the hell of it.....


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 11, 2012)

I didn't mean to have a go at you JP2, was annoyed by something else and that annoyance creeped into my post, but those annoyances have been reported for harrassing others now so I'm fine.

I just don't see breeding animals for money as something anyone should do. Not so much talking about snakes here, moreso talking about puppy and kitten farms. Breed for the pleasure of seeing beautiful offspring that you can share with others is something better to do I reckon


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## junglepython2 (Jul 11, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> I didn't mean to have a go at you JP2, was annoyed by something else and that annoyance creeped into my post, but those annoyances have been reported for harrassing others now so I'm fine.
> 
> I just don't see breeding animals for money as something anyone should do. Not so much talking about snakes here, moreso talking about puppy and kitten farms. Breed for the pleasure of seeing beautiful offspring that you can share with others is something better to do I reckon



If you want to create beautiful offspring that you can share, you are better to think hard and be selective with your pairings rather then put a male over everything you have just because you can. Trust me it is hard enough to move quality pure stock at the moment (take a look at all the quality animals in the for sale section at the moment that are worth less then the rats they would have consumed and still wont sell)

You will struggle to give away average looking crosses and no one in there right mind will want to look after dozens of carpets they can't move.


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## Darlyn (Jul 11, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> People who breed for money shouldn't even be allowed to have the animals. Not all of them are wise and nor can you prove it either.



Congratulations that is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on APS. That is saying a lot BTW


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 11, 2012)

junglepython2 said:


> If you want to create beautiful offspring that you can share, you are better to think hard and be selective with your pairings rather then put a male over everything you have just because you can. Trust me it is hard enough to move quality pure stock at the moment (take a look at all the quality animals in the for sale section at the moment that are worth less then the rats they would have consumed and still wont sell)
> 
> You will struggle to give away average looking crosses and no one in there right mind will want to look after dozens of carpets they can't move.


Yeah I know, thats why I am throwing around ideas about what I could do, I won't mean I will do it. Ideas are just that, ideas, they are meant to be thrown around.


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## Wally (Jul 11, 2012)

It must be July. Time to argue about money and breeding snakes.


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## yommy (Jul 12, 2012)

Your right Wally - 
With my tax cheque i am going to buy the next big thing and make sqizzin's. 
Common coastals het for awesome........


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