# Woma ovulated but didnt mate......



## deebo (Jul 30, 2012)

This little girl got eggbound last year and had all sorts of dramas laying so I obviously rested her this year to help her recuperate.......she was in the same rack as my other womas who being cooled for breeding and just last week I re-arranged a few critters and she got put into a rack with 24hr heat.

When checking on her the other day I noticed that she was incredibly swollen, holding her body tense, and a bit more flighty than normal.

Who knows what she will pop out but I thought it was rather interesting - im wondering if she could have retained some sperm from last year????

Sorry about the dodgy pic - just snapped it on my iphone this arvo.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 30, 2012)

Very interesting Dave ,
Now you have a chance to find out if she retained viable sperm from last season.
But hope she dont get egg bound on you again.
Good luck.
Roger


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## yommy (Jul 30, 2012)

might be a phanton pregnacy she may ovulate but re-absorb the ova. then again did she store sperm as some other species can???
I guess you'll find out dave if she pre-sheds down the track and actually lays........


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## jinjajoe (Jul 30, 2012)

will be great to conclusively prove that they can retain viable sperm for that long !!


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## deebo (Jul 30, 2012)

Her getting egg bound again is my biggest concern so hopefully it all pans out smoothly. I will be keeping a very close eye on her from here on in......

I may be wrong yommy but I thought once they ovulate they lay something and its follicles that they will grow but reabsorb.....I may be wrong and maybe someone else will correct me.

Cheers,
dave


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## zulu (Jul 30, 2012)

Thats interesting david,bredlis and pale headed snakes can retain sperm so womas are a good chance.


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## yommy (Jul 30, 2012)

i've had antaresia swell like ovulation thought well on they were well way to being gravid to then remove the male early and ending up with no eggs. 
I now leave the males in until i'm 100% sure she's gravid or showing signs. belly up etc. no more issues since.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 30, 2012)

Maybe just follicle development?


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## congo_python (Jul 30, 2012)

It will be good to see what results David - but i have had my olive python phantom me twice now in 7 years, but both times i think was due to her just not having enough condition on her as i keep my olives as lean as i can and still only breed the girls every two years.


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## deebo (Jul 30, 2012)

Im 99% sure she has ovulated and its not just follicles but I could be wrong.....only time will tell I guess. Will keep this thread updated with how she goes....


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## Renenet (Jul 31, 2012)

Good luck with her.


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## damian83 (Jul 31, 2012)

Goodluck with her hope all works out and doesn't get egg bound again and keep us informed


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## deebo (Aug 28, 2012)

this girl is looking chunkier and chunkier and has had a shed so will be interesting to see what comes of it.....there is something going on with her one way or another! She is about 10 days off laying from the date she shed and is either basking or pacing her enclosure.


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## yommy (Aug 30, 2012)

Hope you have the nest box ready. Lol


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## deebo (Sep 4, 2012)

Looking promising.....only another couple of days until she is due to lay which by looking at her I would say she will.


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## sharky (Sep 4, 2012)

Female snakes can store sperm from a previous male for years and use it whenever they wish. If you bred her last year, she may have stored some and is using it now. Like you could breed a snake in 2005, not breed it again and could have a clutch in 2007 because it stored some sperm from the previous male.
Hope that cleared things up!
Good luck with her btw, I LOVE WOMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## thomasssss (Sep 4, 2012)

cheers for posting this thread deebo , its really quiet interesting to read , will be even more interesting to see if she lays (which she definitely looks like it from all the pics ive seen but ive never bred reps so wouldnt really know) and then if any of the eggs are viable 

just one thing , if she does have hatchies by some miracle , will you call any jesus ?


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## Ozzie Python (Sep 4, 2012)

looking forward to seeing what comes of it dave. hopefully she gets all the eggs out this year, anything more than that is a bonus.


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## deebo (Sep 4, 2012)

i hope it all goes smoothly stu - dont want a repeat of last year with her insides becoming her outsides!


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## leamos (Sep 4, 2012)

Got my fingers crossed for you deebo


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## deebo (Sep 5, 2012)

testing out the nest box.....


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## WomaBoy (Sep 5, 2012)

Hope all goes well mate !


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## Raymonde (Sep 5, 2012)

In theory, she choose to use the stored sperm, so hopefully that means she feel healthy enough to lay successfully. I hope all goes well, keep us posted, it is an interesting situation.


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## deebo (Sep 7, 2012)

first two eggs out this morning with no dramas - one looks like its infertile, but the 2nd looks to have plenty of veins in it. Still a few to go by the looks of things......

and unrelated but a little whip snake i saw hiding under our jacaranda while I had the camera with me!:lol:


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## junglepython2 (Sep 7, 2012)

Congrats, very interesting.


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## thomasssss (Sep 7, 2012)

jesus has been laid then


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## RSPcrazy (Sep 7, 2012)

Well there you go, woma's can retain sperm and use it years down the track. I find this very interesting, as I can't believe the sperm could stay alive that long.


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## Ozzie Python (Sep 7, 2012)

good stuff dave. hopefully the slug that came out is the retained egg from last season.


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## SarahScales (Sep 7, 2012)

Ohh my goodness! Congratulations! How exciting!


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## bitisfan (Sep 7, 2012)

That is pretty neat! Never had any of my snakes retain sperm. Nice catch taking photos of it laying!


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## smeejason (Sep 7, 2012)

I will be round with 2 of my smartest friends with Frankincense, Gold and Myrrh.
2013 years ago a group of people started the richest company in the world on a virgin birth so i say lets start one of our own.. 
i will start on the story book now about this amazing and unexplainable event..


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## yommy (Sep 7, 2012)

What a bonus Dave, how many did she end up with??


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## congo_python (Sep 7, 2012)

Congrats Dave I hope the incubation goes well for you.


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## eddie123 (Sep 7, 2012)

how many now? Wow thats awesome


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## deebo (Sep 7, 2012)

she laid 6 in total so far - there is at least one or two still in there that she hasnt laid. Will see what happens overnight with her.....


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## eddie123 (Sep 7, 2012)

thats awesome. Bet you were'nt thinking of her laying this year. hahah


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## deebo (Sep 7, 2012)

was not expected or planned at all.....she will get rested again next year so hopefully nothing happens then and she can get a year off to rest and recover!


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## eddie123 (Sep 7, 2012)

haha. Good luck with incubation, keep us updated. I wanna see cute little baby womas in 2 months


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## deebo (Sep 8, 2012)

she popped one more out this morning and there is still one to go but she doesnt seem too interested in trying to get it out at the moment....the one from this morning doesnt seem to be fertile but will see what happens.


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## Darlyn (Sep 8, 2012)

smeejason said:


> I will be round with 2 of my smartest friends with Frankincense, Gold and Myrrh.
> 2013 years ago a group of people started the richest company in the world on a virgin birth so i say lets start one of our own..
> i will start on the story book now about this amazing and unexplainable event..



Very witty, thanks for a belly laugh : )


Good luck with her deebo and the youngsters.


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## deebo (Sep 20, 2012)

The two eggs I wasn't confident on ended up in the bin the other day but the other 5 are going well with nice solid veins in them. I'd be happy with 5 out of 7 with retained sperm!


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## reptileaddiction (Sep 20, 2012)

deebo said:


> she popped one more out this morning and there is still one to go but she doesnt seem too interested in trying to get it out at the moment....the one from this morning doesnt seem to be fertile but will see what happens.



Did the remaining one come out?


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## deebo (Sep 20, 2012)

the one retained is from the year prior which surprises me, i thought she would have passed it this year.....she was xrayed a while ago and it was slowly being absorbed so was left rather than surgery. It is a lot smaller now so I assume her body was drawing it a lot during the ovulation etc of the new clutch. I will get her xrayed again soon to see what is happening with it and make sure everything is ok.


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## No-two (Sep 20, 2012)

deebo said:


> the one retained is from the year prior which surprises me, i thought she would have passed it this year.....she was xrayed a while ago and it was slowly being absorbed so was left rather than surgery. It is a lot smaller now so I assume her body was drawing it a lot during the ovulation etc of the new clutch. I will get her xrayed again soon to see what is happening with it and make sure everything is ok.



I don't see how she could be absorbing it but it may be getting smaller because it's breaking down and going rotten. I had this happen with a woma several years ago. A very similar situation I thought she would push it out when she laid a following clutch. The clutch was laid but same retained egg. It went rotten and gave her and infection. She subsequently died as a result.


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## deebo (Sep 20, 2012)

I was told if it was going to rot and turn septic it would have done a lot sooner than 12 months down the track. It has gradually been shrinking in size since her last clutch and since ovulating this time I thought she would have pushed it down and layed it but it has remained and has drastically decreased in size.

They can reabsorb follicles they develop but why not an egg? I realize a follicle and an egg are two very different things but is there a reason why they could not reabsorb an egg?


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## bigguy (Sep 20, 2012)

Deebo Congratulations. That is now the second python to lay eggs from retained sperm. The first was a Bredls who laid a fertile clutch after a 2 year gap from mating.

Eggs form in the ovaries. From here they can either be force out into the ovaducts or reabsorbed back into the ovaries. Once a snake has ovulated(the eggs have entered the ovaducts) then they can no longer be absorbed. Something has to be laid wether fertile or infertile. Eggs that are not laid normally rot if not surgerically removed, and most snakes die of blood poisoning


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## deebo (Sep 20, 2012)

bigguy - thanks for clearing that up. Are there any indications on how long a snake can retain and then pass retained eggs before death occurs? The egg/lump is defintely shrinking in size so what would be happening to it? would it be getting passed in small amounts? Are there many instances of retained eggs being passed and the snakes surviving that you know of?

When you say second snake to lay eggs from retained sperm, is that within Australia? in womas? Surely there are more than two cases?

Thanks,
Dave


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## No-two (Sep 20, 2012)

My girl died whilst developing follicles for her third clutch Dave the retained egg was from 3 years prior and her first clutch. 

The follicles are quite different before they're shelled you can see how they would be absorbed as there is no shell. Here is a photo of some well developed follicles from when my girl died. I didn't have the egg removed for a similar reason and I was expecting her to be able to pass it sooner or later. I think once it goes rotten your chances of developing blood poisoning as bigguy mentioned is pretty high.


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## bigguy (Sep 20, 2012)

Dave As far as I am aware only 2 pythons in the world have laid a clutch from retained sperm. It is common in colubrids, but was once unheard of in pythons. So far a bredli laid 18 fertile eggs 2 years after being mated, and now a woma 1 year after mating. 

As for females surviving with retained eggs. I have heard of some, but alas most tend to die if not removed by a vet. Are you sure the retained egg is in the ovaducts. If it was I find it hard to fathom how this years clutch passed by it. It may be in the ovaries and is slowly being reabsorbed


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## deebo (Sep 20, 2012)

hey hayden,

thanks for the info and pics.....

Do you have a pic of the retained egg? It seems strange that something could sit inside them for so long and then after 2-3yrs turn septic and kill them.....I wonder really what the difference between reabsorbing a follicle and a shelled egg is?


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## bigguy (Sep 20, 2012)

A follicle is formed in the ovaries were nurishment which comes from the females body forms around a ova(egg), and as it was produced there, the nurishment can be reabsorbed there as well if the female does not ovulate. Once a follicle leaves the ovaries it can not be reabsorbed as the ovaducts are just tubes made of tissue thin tissure and are only used for eggs to be fertilised and develope before laying


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## deebo (Sep 21, 2012)

bigguy,

I will try and find the cd with the xray pics of the retained egg.....I was honestly quite suprised when she ovulated and then very surprised when she managed to pass eggs this year as I was expecting the retained egg to be at the front of the lot. The first egg she passed was infertile and a bit mis-shapen but that obviously had nothing to do with the retained egg from the year before. Once I knew she had she ovulated I was a bit concerned as to what was going to happen this year so I kept a very close eye on her and took the day of work once I saw her commencing to lay. I am assuming that the lump she has in her is a retained egg as I never noticed it before last years clutch and from the xray and the vets opinion it is an egg. It cannot be moved up and down inside her like you would expect a tumour but seems stuck to her internal cavity.

Can you explain how it may be stuck in her ovaries as opposed to her oviduct? I thought that follicles where formed from the ovaries and then shelled/moved into the oviduct when ovulation occurred. Could it still be attached to the ovaries somehow if it is an egg?

Will dig up the xrays and that may clear things up.

Thanks,
Dave


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## bigguy (Sep 21, 2012)

The unshelled follicles are forced out of the ovaries during ovulation. They amass in a cavity around mid body(this is the stage when one see ovulation as a large mass mid body). From here muscle contractions force the eggs down both the overducts. This is were the sperm is normally waiting and the eggs fertilised. over the next 2 months or so calcium encases the hopefully fertilised eggs. If the eggs were calcified in the ovaries then the sperm could not penertrate and fertilise the eggs in the overducts

You may find your girls retained egg is just a follicle that adhered to the ovary wall and failed to reabsorb properly and hardened


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## deebo (Oct 11, 2012)

one of the eggs a couple of weeks from hatching - can see movement in all of the remaining 5 so fingers crossed!


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## cathy1986 (Oct 11, 2012)

deebo said:


> one of the eggs a couple of weeks from hatching - can see movement in all of the remaining 5 so fingers crossed!



you should make a vid clip of the movement it would be cool to see

Cathy


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## deebo (Oct 31, 2012)

first one has decided to poke its head out today....day 62 for these. Will grab some pics once they are out.


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## onthillside (Oct 31, 2012)

Some great info in this thread guys.
well done.
T


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## Marzzy (Nov 1, 2012)

Can't wait for the pics, thread was a good read indeed.


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## Madders (Nov 1, 2012)

This is fascinating, thanks for sharing


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## deebo (Nov 1, 2012)

two heads poking out now.....the rest are all "right" way up so im sure wont be too far behind.


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## yommy (Nov 1, 2012)

Awesome stuff dave. Love the light head colour. As yours are laying mine are laying. Crazy season.... lol


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## GeckoJosh (Nov 1, 2012)

yommy said:


> Awesome stuff dave. Love the light head colour. As yours are laying minbe are laying. Crazy season.... lol



Yeah my RHD's only laid 11 days ago


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## Darlyn (Nov 1, 2012)

Woohoo! Here they cometh!
I hope you have them in a stable!

Smeejason owes you some frankincense, gold and myrrh : )


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## smeejason (Nov 1, 2012)

Darlyn said:


> Woohoo! Here they cometh!
> I hope you have them in a stable!
> 
> Smeejason owes you some frankincense, gold and myrrh : )



If I only knew 2 other wise men. Lol


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## Darlyn (Nov 1, 2012)

smeejason said:


> If I only knew 2 other wise men. Lol



I'm with you, not many wise men around, maybe try women?

(left yourself open for that one)


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## deebo (Nov 2, 2012)

First one out this morning.


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## yommy (Nov 2, 2012)

very cool banding Dave


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## happynagini (Nov 2, 2012)

Ive only just caught this thread! So amazing!
God i love snakes !!!


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## deebo (Nov 4, 2012)

last decided to leave its egg overnight - 5 little fiesty womas now! All have nice fat bellys and are full of attitude. Very happy with this result.


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## caleb96 (Nov 4, 2012)

Very nice my female is due to lay in the next 3 to 4 weeks hopping all goes well 
Caleb.


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## jedi_339 (Nov 4, 2012)

deebo said:


> last decided to leave its egg overnight - 5 little fiesty womas now! All have nice fat bellys and are full of attitude. Very happy with this result.



I wonder if you'll be able to sell these little guys for more? The virgin birth, Jesus snakes or perhaps the ability to move across water?

awesome little guys and congrats on the unexpected development (although I'm a little out of date)


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## pythonmum (Nov 4, 2012)

Fantastic result! I am glad that humans do not retain viable sperm for so long. The youngsters look fantastic and the story makes them even more amazing. I have really enjoyed following this one.


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## thals (Nov 4, 2012)

That's awesome to see Dave, glad to hear they're all healthy and full of attitude


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## Darlyn (Nov 4, 2012)

They are just gorgeous : )


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## happynagini (Mar 12, 2013)

Hi deebo, how did these little guys end up?
All healthy and munching down mice i assume?


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