# Help join the protest against the new OEH laws for reptile keeping in NSW



## SpilotaFreak78 (Jun 24, 2013)

Please help protest against the Officeof Environment and Heritage's new cage compliance for reptilekeeping in NSW. 


You may already have this somewhere onthe site but I want to put it up again to reach more people.


I did not write the below letter,possibly it was written by Andrew Camelleri or John Mostyn, I'm sureeveryone knows who they are. (forgive me if I have misspelled theirnames!). It was handed out to us at our recent Herp club meetingwhere someone came along to talk to us about it.


Short of flooding this MP with theseletters, another well known name of the industry, Bob Withey, wantsto take this to the news networks and get it on 'A Current Affair',to get more coverage and make people aware of what has happened here,so please copy and paste the below letter, even if you are not anAustralian resident or a reptile keeper, all help would beappreciated, the more letters the better.


You do not have to include the firstline and please remember to sign you name or possibly your reptilekeepers license or whatever you deem appropriate. Sorry I do not havean email, so it needs to be sent by post.


____________________________________________________




Please send to_
The Hon. Robyn Parker, MP
Level 32 Governor Macquarie Tower
1 Farrer Place
Sydney NSW 2000


Re: NSW Office of Environment andHeritage Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles(Minimum Cage Sizes)


Dear Minister,
I would like to express my objectionto the implementation of the above code of practice. I am one of themany hundreds, if not thousands, of Private NSW reptile keepers whoshare the same concerns.
In the 16 years since the 1997amnesty, private reptile keepers in NSW have not been regulated byany enforceable cage sizes. The industry has been left to develop ingood faith based on voluntary guidelines and practical solutions withthe welfare of captive animals as a top priority.
During this time licensed privatekeepers have invested significant sums of money constructing orpurchasing commercially available enclosures that were not subject tominimum standards. Several businesses even specialise in sellingcustom made professional racks imported from America. These do notcomply with the new code. As a result, a large proportion of NSWreptile keepers will be in breach of the law should this code becomeenforceable.
This will require private keepers tofind the money to buy or construct new enclosures (assuming they canalso find the extra space required) or get rid of their reptilesaltogether.
In the case of the impractically largenew dimensions required for goannas and turtles, it is more likely tobe the latter.
Selling used enclosures to offsetlosses will not be viable since nobody will buy cages that do notcomply. Accordingly I believe that if the NSW Government wishes tooutlaw our enclosures that we licensed private keepers constructed orpurchased in good faith then they should be required to compensateour losses.
I propose the following options foryour consideration.


 
 
Impose a grandfathering clause that exempts enclosures bought or constructed before the new Code of Practice from the need to comply. An inspection will be required to certify cages.

Monetary compensation through a 'buy back' to the value of 50%of the initial outlay for used cages and100% of the value for unused cages. Non-compliant cages can be returned to a designated location for disposal.

3.Keep the Code of Practice as a guideline rahter than an enforceable code – but require that all commercially manufactured enclosures and those sold in pet shops comply with the new Code of Practice from 2014. Within time, this will result in all private keepers becoming compliant anyway as old cages are replaced through attrition – but will soften the immediate financial burden.
 

 I look forward to your reply,


Yours Faithfully


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## scorps (Jun 24, 2013)

Are the new cage sizes really that bad?

Havent really looked to be honest though.


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## FAY (Jun 24, 2013)

They are ridiculous for monitors and turtles especially.Not too bad for pythons. The fact that they will be made mandatory and not just a guideline does not really sit well with a lot of people in NSW. We would be the ONLY section in the world that has mandatory cage sizes. Really weird when a cockatoo is OK to be put in a cage as long as it can just flap it's wings.


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## Tiliqua (Jun 24, 2013)

The new sizes are crap for anyone keeping monitors. I'm mainly a skink-keeper myself, and 37.5 x 37.5cm, is the minimum floorspace for a single bluey. I wouldn't house a single bluey in anything under 45cm x 90cms anyway. My cages are compliant with all my skink species as they are, will have to build new olive/scrubby enclosures or move on the animals when it comes to my pythons.


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## Tesla (Jun 24, 2013)

Good luck, I tried calling this parliament member when they first announced they would be allowing reptiles in pet shops. When I called I was transferred to about 3 different people where I was told by her assistant that I would have to email her with my concerns and that it would be answered within 2 weeks........it's been over 3 months and still haven't heard a word, great to see these people are given huge salaries at our expense and can't even take the time to write back to a legitimate query of people they are meant to be representing.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 24, 2013)

That letter needs significant editing before it goes anywhere official, especially the spacing, and few spelling errors.

I believe that members of the Expert Advisory Group appointed by (then) DECC to collaborate (haha) will be voicing their concern about the fact that OEH has implied in their justification that the Code was developed and implemented collaboratively. This is not the case - the EAG was excluded totally from further development when we UNANIMOUSLY declared our opposition to mandated enclosure sizes, for a whole number of valid reasons. We had to eventually go to FOI to get any idea about where the push for this was coming from, and how it was developing, and it was from DII (Dpt of Industry & Investment), who insisted that any legislation be mandated to enable successful prosecution.

Bureaucrats should never be permitted to introduce laws without justfying the need for them. We asked repeatedly for evidence of the need for enclosure size regulation, but it was not forthcoming, because there has been no consistent problem with enclosure sizes for reptiles. The whole Code of Practice is simply the idealogical brainchild of a couple of bureaucrats who want to stamp their names on something they personally see as significant. Its development and implementation were done in a very sly manner by the Dept, with the fanfare about herps being sold in pet shops as a bit of sweetener/smokescreen at the same time.

Jamie


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## bk201 (Jun 24, 2013)

I am using it as an excuse to build a new rack and get glass fish tanks custom made.


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## Ramsayi (Jun 24, 2013)

As I understand it in 5 years they will review the code and raise the current minimum cage sizes to reflect the DII's cage sizes.


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## Umbral (Jun 24, 2013)

I think that adding that species size variation should be added onto that email.
Im going to need to build my womas new enclosures even though they are barely the length of the enclosures they are in.


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## FAY (Jun 24, 2013)

My pygmies are more than 6 months old. they are supposed to be upgraded in size at 6 months. Mind you , they are still only the size of a worm. :shock:


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## Jacknife (Jun 24, 2013)

Not trying to be cynical, but I can't see this doing anything to sway their decision no matter how many people mail it in.


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## HarryReptiles (Jun 24, 2013)

isnt the new cage rules only applieing to the snakes you buy after the law is enforced not the animals you have before the law is placed and every new cage you buy or build...


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## Bart70 (Jun 24, 2013)

HarryReptiles said:


> isnt the new cage rules only applieing to the snakes you buy after the law is enforced not the animals you have before the law is placed and every new cage you buy or build...



No.....It applies now to all reptiles you have in your possession now or at the time of inspection, and any enclosure they are housed within regardless of when it was made or when the animal was purchased, with (from memory) a 12 month 'warning' period before penalty enforcement occurs.

It might pay a lot of people to actually read them......

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/wildlifelicences/20130185ReptileCode.pdf


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## Ramy (Jun 24, 2013)

HarryReptiles said:


> isnt the new cage rules only applieing to the snakes you buy after the law is enforced not the animals you have before the law is placed and every new cage you buy or build...


The cage sizes will apply to ALL ANIMALS registered on your reptile license.


I know I'm opening a can or worms here, but there are things I like about the enclosure sizes. I'm sure anyone who's been on the forum long enough has seen photos pulled off gumtree of various reptiles who're crammed in enclosures they can barely turn around in, or animals who are under fed or otherwise neglected. We've all complained about how petshops keep dogs and cats in undersized enclosures. We've all got some issue or other with undersized enclosures when they stress an animal out. One of the reasons they decided to introduce mandatory enclosure sizes was to protect animals kept in large collections, such as breeders or petshops, from over crowding and negligence. So in that sense, they have their goals set in the right place.

What the guidelines fail to acknowledge is that *there is no one rule for any animal or situation*. The guidelines don't allow for animals who fall under their species' average size. The guidelines don't allow for different sized hatchlings or growing rates. The guidelines don't acknowledge that moving a hatchling into a larger enclosure at 6 months when they aren't big enough to need it has (in certain instances) lead to the animal stressing out and refusing food until moved back into the smaller enclosure.

There needs to be a clause that says you are allowed to go against the code if you have *good reason*.
For example, if you have consulted with a vet or someone with experience (preferably through a reptile society) and they agree that your non-compliance is either not going to threaten the animal in question or that it is in it's best interest.
Or that you have been keeping said animal in it's current enclosure for a reasonable time so far, and have consulted with a vet who says there is no reason that they can see to change it.

It is also my opinion that the monitor requirements are too large, and that I bought an enclosure compliant with the draft that was released earlier, and it is no longer sufficient for the animal I wanted it for.


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## Norm (Jun 24, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> As I understand it in 5 years they will review the code and raise the current minimum cage sizes to reflect the DII's cage sizes.



This makes it sound as though they have already committed to raising the minimum sizes in 5 years. If that is so, why not use the DII`s minimum to start with?

I`m not right up on the whole issue, only that minimum cage sizes are coming in and therefore some of mine wont be compliant for the adult snakes I was going to keep in them. Has meant that without building new ones I cant keep as many adults as I was planning unless I broaden my collection from exclusively Morelia to Anteresia as well. I`m not really interested in doing this.


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## Bart70 (Jun 24, 2013)

Personally I don't mind the snake regs. I am not into monitors/lizards turtles but from a read through it does look like it is harsher for those keepers - I don't know enough about them to make an informed decision.

I do see some problems with them though - My opinion is there is no provision for animals that require smaller enclosure sizes for legitimate reasons, and the basis of some of the regs are too confusing for some people to follow, and other areas are open to interpretation.

For example - "_*Clause*_ _*4.1.1.3 - An enclosure housing a species that normally climbs (see Appendix A) must have sufficient useable vertical space for the reptile to climb*_" - There is no definition of what 'sufficient useable vertical space' is, and the issue is further compounded by the allowance to use the larger of wall _*or *_floor area in calculating the minimum area for a climber...Would have thought that using the wall *only* for climbers would promote an enclosure that was taller than longer (promoting height for climbing) and using Clause 4.3.1.1 to link the shortest floor dimension to the snakes length - ensuring that a legal 'tall' enclosure could not comply with a stupidly tiny floor width as it would need to be at least 20% of the snakes length.

Instead we have no governance around what constitutes climbing space, and enthusiasts now have to remember to calculate both wall and floor area and use the greater of the two when determining compliance for a climber.....and it is possible to make an apparent 'compliant' climber enclosure with arguably insufficient climbing space (by using floor area instead of wall to meet the Area spec) that may become a point of contention around what constitutes climbing space.

I am no Rhodes Scholar but I firmly believe they could have been written much better than they were to achieve the outcome intended and cause a lot less grief for keepers.


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## FAY (Jun 24, 2013)

Guidelines are great (especially for scum that will put animals in anything) it is the fact that they are MANDATORY, that is where the problem is. Like I have said before...no one on planet earth (except in NSW) has Mandatory cage sizes. When they got information from various experienced reptile keepers, they just threw all that out the window and went with information from another source who have never kept a reptile in their life. They also said they would NOT make them mandatory and turned around and have done just that. Mind you any animal kept in a laboratory are exempt from these laws. I also think zoos are as well. Keeping birds or any other animals in NSW is NOT mandatory. Go figure...


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## Umbral (Jun 24, 2013)

I know this would be hard to enforce but saying an enclosure must be (in te case of snakes.) at least 1/2 the length and 1/4 or 1/3 what ever they decide the width of the snake makes much more sence to me.

All my snakes are in enclosures about the same length as their bodies but because I have certain smaller sub species that isn't good enough.


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## Ramy (Jun 24, 2013)

FAY said:


> Guidelines are great (especially for scum that will put animals in anything) it is the fact that they are MANDATORY, that is where the problem is. Like I have said before...no one on planet earth (except in NSW) has Mandatory cage sizes. When they got information from various experienced reptile keepers, they just threw all that out the window and went with information from another source who have never kept a reptile in their life. They also said they would NOT make them mandatory and turned around and have done just that. Mind you any animal kept in a laboratory are exempt from these laws. I also think zoos are as well. Keeping birds or any other animals in NSW is NOT mandatory. Go figure...



I agree with you. It sucks that people who aren't doing any harm to their animals are at risk of being punished on a technicality (albeit a small risk, since the likelyhood of the OEH getting off their buttocks and inspecting the common keeper seems small at this point). It sucks more that someone who knows nothing about reptiles has decided they know better than the veterans in the trade.

I suppose my point is that there has to be a happy medium. SOMEWHERE. And it's a fact that the beaurocrats won't be the ones to find it. The ideal situation from our perspective would be that the code is turned back into guidelines, but then they'll feel like they're being negligent (or maybe like we've won). Whatever the solution becomes, we need to decide exactly what we want and then approach them as a collective, or they aren't likely to listen. It will probably involve convincing them to re-open the dialogue they started with the original panel. It will probably involve compromise on our part. It will definitely require a lot of someone's time.

The real solution to the problem of animal neglect involves educating pet owners (I mean your every day John and Mary who bought their son a puppy/cat/bluie without knowing anything about them) on the responsibility of pet keeping. But that's another discussion entirely.


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## saintanger (Jun 24, 2013)

i'm fine with the python, lizard, gecko and dragon size enclosres but i need to upgrade my monitors enclosures lucky they are under 6 months and are ackies. also i have 18 turtles, i have a 6ft tank housing the smaller ones and an out door pond housing the bigger ones. but enclosure sizes for turtles does not include the land space in out door enclosures so i will be in breach of the new law. so i must either turn the land space into more water and throw in turtles docks or sell some turtles or set up another 6ft tank. 

i am glad they did give us enforcable laws regarding enclosure sizes because i have seen so many reptiles mainly pythons, lizards, dragons and monitors crammed in tiny enclosures. but wen it comes to monitors and turtles they have gone to far.


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## bigguy (Jun 24, 2013)

The actual fact is DOE lied their guts out to get these new laws in. The Herp Societies committee were told it was only going to be a guideline, then after talks ceased they increased the sizes and made it Mandatory Then they lied to the Minister by telling her these new laws had the full backing of the societies, so they were passed.

These laws may not effect you at the present time, but here is some food for thought. In a few years every cage size could be increased again, effecting everyone. At the present the laws may put most breeders out of business. This may make some people happy, but if no breeders there will be very few hatchlings available. Prices will skyrocket. Only the very wealthy will be able to afford them. The hobby could crash.

We need to nip this in the bud. Everyone should send a letter to the Minister of Environment. She is unaware there is a problem but a few thousand letters should indicate to her there is a serious problem with the new laws. Failing this, the media should be contacted.


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## champagne (Jun 24, 2013)

bigguy said:


> The actual fact is DOE lied their guts out to get these new laws in. The Herp Societies committee were told it was only going to be a guideline, then after talks ceased they increased the sizes and made it Mandatory Then they lied to the Minister by telling her these new laws had the full backing of the societies, so they were passed.
> 
> These laws may not effect you at the present time, but here is some food for thought. In a few years every cage size could be increased again, effecting everyone. At the present the laws may put most breeders out of business. This may make some people happy, but if no breeders there will be very few hatchlings available. Prices will skyrocket. Only the very wealthy will be able to afford them. The hobby could crash.
> 
> We need to nip this in the bud. Everyone should send a letter to the Minister of Environment. She is unaware there is a problem but a few thousand letters should indicate to her there is a serious problem with the new laws. Failing this, the media should be contacted.



prices skyrocket and hobby could crash, really common..... there are plenty of reptile breeders outside NSW that these laws don't affect.


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## bigguy (Jun 24, 2013)

Quite true, but how long till the other states follow with new laws. I have heard the Vic govt is looking at this right now.


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 24, 2013)

Not bothered looking in detail at the new keeper's rules. 

Really can't see what the problem is.

So long as the enclosures you keep your reptiles in have a larger footprints than the "mandated" sizes (and nearly everyone here will) then you don't have anything to worry about.

Making a mountain of out a mole hill perhaps.


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## Skeptic (Jun 24, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> Not bothered looking at the new rules.
> 
> Really can't see that the problem is, so long as the enclosures you keep your reptiles in have a larger footprint than the "mandated" sizes (and nearly everyone here will) then you don't have anything to worry about.
> 
> Making a moutain of out a mole hill perhaps.



You might have a better chance of seeing what the problem is if you actually read the new CoP.


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## Cougar2007 (Jun 24, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> Not bothered looking at the new keeper's rules.
> 
> Really can't see what the problem is.
> 
> ...



Isn't that a bit contradictory lizard whisperer? You haven't bothered to look at the new rules but you can't see what the problem is? Obviously you don't keep monitors???

I'd suggest you read them before making "mountain out of molehill" comments


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 24, 2013)

What I meant to say is "in detail" , see adjusted post, too busy watching 4Corners and not really focusing on my typing. My bad..


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## Rogue5861 (Jun 24, 2013)

Skeptic said:


> You might have a better chance of seeing what the problem is if you actually read the new CoP.



Agreed. Even though this doesnt affect me in SA some of the sizes seem a little dramatic.

Maybe these restictions should be implemented on people with basic licences and all current specialist permit holders should be exempt. (SA licences are basic then advanced, i assume nsw use a similar system).

Is there anyway to apply for exemptions at all?


Rick


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 24, 2013)

The rules are virtually unenforceable since the NSW govt is not interested in growing the government workforce and the inspectors in the enforcing department are VERY THINLY SPREAD and mostly just fly desks.


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## Cougar2007 (Jun 24, 2013)

They just hired 15 more inspectors I heard. Isn't that growing the workforce?


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## =bECS= (Jun 24, 2013)

There's no point in me building a bigger enclosure for my monitors, given the sizes it would almost be cheaper to add another room to the house for my adult Spencers, hence why I'm selling one. 
Not to mention that once they are in an aviary or pit outside (which was the plan) its going to take up considerable room. Then I still need the addition of a room on the house to keep them in over our cold winters because they will freeze outside resulting in respiratory problems or death during winter. It's ridiculous -_- maybe I should just let them be free-range inside!
Why did they hit monitor keepers so hard??


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## Bart70 (Jun 24, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> The rules are virtually unenforceable since the NSW govt is not interested in growing the government workforce and the inspectors in the enforcing department are VERY THINLY SPREAD and mostly just fly desks.



Only takes one officer and one inspection....

I recall a person who was on the advisory committee commenting that the power hungry individuals that were pushing these through were extremely keen for mandatory regs so that they could start prosecuting and I believe there was some feeling of intent to get out there and start enforcing/fining. Happy to stand corrected if this was incorrect but the source was one that I believe was in a position to know and can be trusted.

Resources might be light on the ground....but I am sure a small number of them *could* cause a lot of upset if they were directed to......The current Government is not keen on growing workforces, but ALL Governments take a strong interest in increasing revenue streams.


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## =bECS= (Jun 24, 2013)

Wonder how many keepers this will force underground? 
Those that have larger collections in racks and tubs etc who get fed up and don't feel the need to pay increasing license fees anymore, followed by possible fines/seizure due to the COP.
If you don't have a reptile license then don't they require a warrant to enter the premises? 

I have a feeling this is just going to eventually increase the black market of reptile keeping if they start enforcing it hard.
Having reptiles in shops now is going to gain more attention to them. 
How many kids are going to catch a diamond/bluey/beardie/jacky in the bush and decide to keep it because they seen how much they are in shops, or try selling them on.

There's so many people keeping reptiles both native and exotic off license and those of us who are doing it honestly are the ones getting punished


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## Bart70 (Jun 24, 2013)

=bECS= said:


> If you don't have a reptile license then don't they require a warrant to enter the premises?



They cannot enter your premises currently unless they have arranged a suitable time and you agree to let them in. Whilst I am not 100% sure, even if they arrived at your place at an arranged time and you refused to let them in they cannot force entry and would still need to obtain a warrant.

Wouldn't end well though once they came back with it as I would imagine they would have little trouble obtaining one under those circumstances...

(I agree with your thoughts though....If people go underground and are not licensed at least it makes it just that little bit harder for them to know where you are...)


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 24, 2013)

I mainly keep beardies and while my enclosures meet current regs(centrals in 1200x600x700 & pygmies in divided 1200x600x600),whats to stop the boofocrats coming back in a couple of years and doubling minimum sizes?
Desk jockeys make rules for other people without any understanding of the implications.
For instance Workcover recently changed the rules re licences;I have a ticket for front end loader/backhoe but for some reason this hard earned ticket is no longer regarded as important,but my fork-lift ticket means I am qualified for "high risk".....so I can dig holes through gas pipes and electrical cables with no qualifications at all!
go figure


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## =bECS= (Jun 24, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> Wouldn't end well though once they came back with it as I would imagine they would have little trouble obtaining one under those circumstances...



Indeed :lol:
They would be even more unimpressed if they came back and found nothing because the person threw everything in bags over their neighbors fence lol


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## Tesla (Jun 24, 2013)

If we are going to do it we need to do it properly, we need to utilize every form of communication available.
I suggest we:
-Call her office and make sure they know what it's in regards to
-Email her office and outline our concerns.
-Snail mail with our concerns.
-Even if we used fax as a tool.

I think if we were to utilize these 4 methods there would be no way she could ignore our concerns and would be forced to at least address them. My partner and myself will be doing so but we need as many keepers as possible to help, even if out of state keepers were to at least flick them an email it would be a massive help.

Robyn Parker's details are as follow:




cellspacing="2" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(243, 242, 230)"
|- 
| align="right" style="width: 105px" |
Telephone: 

| style="width: 95%" |
(02) 9228 5253

|- 
| align="right" width="105" |
Fax: 

| width="95%" |
(02) 9228 5763

|- 
| align="right" width="105" |
Email: 

| width="95%" |
[email protected]

|- 
| align="right" valign="top" width="105" |
Street Address: 

| valign="top" width="95%" |
Governor Macquarie Tower
Level 32, 1 Farrer Place
SYDNEY NSW 2000

|-


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 25, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> They cannot enter your premises currently unless they have arranged a suitable time and you agree to let them in. Whilst I am not 100% sure, even if they arrived at your place at an arranged time and you refused to let them in they cannot force entry and would still need to obtain a warrant.
> 
> Wouldn't end well though once they came back with it as I would imagine they would have little trouble obtaining one under those circumstances...
> 
> (I agree with your thoughts though....If people go underground and are not licensed at least it makes it just that little bit harder for them to know where you are...)



There's your solution, send them packing, no warant from a court to force you to let them inside to view your arrangements, no inspection.

And keep the curtains drawn or and blinds closed and keep nothing in sight of anyone who "happens" to look over a fence, or walks down your driveway.

Like I said, the new "guidelines" are unenforceable.


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 25, 2013)

Tesla said:


> If we are going to do it we need to do it properly, we need to utilize every form of communication available.
> I suggest we:
> -Call her office and make sure they know what it's in regards to
> -Email her office and outline our concerns.
> ...



Just like the marine no fishing zones and very restrictive bag limits, once the rules are on the books, it's impossible to get them rescined or removed from the law books. 

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think you have next to no chance of having these new rules changed or removed now they are on the books, especially if they are a going to be a new revenue stream.

There just are not in all reality enough people involved in the hobby to force a change after the event, especially if the people responsible are already on their little power trip and now building their little empires.


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## =bECS= (Jun 25, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> There's your solution, send them packing, no warant from a court to force you to let them inside to view your arrangements, no inspection.
> 
> And keep the curtains drawn or and blinds closed and keep nothing in sight of anyone who "happens" to look over a fence, or walks down your driveway.
> 
> Like I said, the new "guidelines" are unenforceable.



Unless its in your license conditions to allow them entry, if it's not already (I haven't looked) 
After a few 'no warrant, no entry' house calls it will be added!
Like I said, those of us who are doing the right thing being licensed and telling them exactly what and where we keep via record books are getting punished.

If it's all about revenue raising, how long until we will be required to have ABN's and pay tax on sales..... Although if we were, I'm sure 98% of keepers and breeders would be registering a loss and having a nice big tax return after claiming electricity, food supplies, enclosure materials and upgrades, internet for research/record keeping and such


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 25, 2013)

=bECS= said:


> Unless its in your license conditions to allow them entry, if it's not already (I haven't looked)
> After a few 'no warrant, no entry' house calls it will be added!
> Like I said, those of us who are doing the right thing being licensed and telling them exactly what and where we keep via record books are getting punished.
> 
> If it's all about revenue raising, how long until we will be required to have ABN's and pay tax on sales..... Although if we were, I'm sure 98% of keepers and breeders would be registering a loss and having a nice big tax return after claiming electricity, food supplies, enclosure materials and upgrades, internet for research/record keeping and such



If it turns out my taking out a licence takes away my right to privacy in my own home, I for one will not be renewing when it comes due.

A moratorium by keepers going on strike wrt renewing their licences when due might be the only measure that will force change if enough chose to go on strike and NOT PAY to renew.That would be a substantial hit to their revenue stream.


This whole thing smacks of alarmism to me.


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## 2.3casper (Jun 25, 2013)

Not trying to be cynical, but I can't see this doing anything to sway their decision no matter how many people mail it in.
Tiliqua likes this. !!!!!!!!! 
Really weird when a cockatoo is OK to be put in a cage as long as it can just flap it's wings.!!!!!!!!!! I thinking the same thing


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## champagne (Jun 25, 2013)

dragonlover1 said:


> I mainly keep beardies and while my enclosures meet current regs(centrals in 1200x600x700 & pygmies in divided 1200x600x600),whats to stop the boofocrats coming back in a couple of years and doubling minimum sizes?


parks and wildlife's job is to look after parks and wildlife, not pet reptiles.... so that is what they are doing. keeping native reptiles outside their natural range is a big risk with hybridisation so the more regs the less people will keep therefore limiting the problem. give it a couple of years and NSW will only be allowed to keep what they sell in the pet shops/local species the rest will be on specialised licenses which cost big $$$$


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## borntobnude (Jun 25, 2013)

^^^ ^^

I am pretty sure that both of the stores I have been to are Major Breeders themselves , and even had a bit to do with our new rules and regulations ( and I do know that they were not listened to all that much by the regulators ) . Having such a limited variety to offer inside their stores there may still be dealings done in the carparks .
Unless there is another agenda behind all of this -- to remove many species from the hobby altogether :lol: ( conspiracy theory number 1)  ^

Reused from another post by me, but there it is again :lol: (1)


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 25, 2013)

Drs Peter Harlow from Taronga and Glenn Shea from Sydney Uni met with the Minister in January this year, to express their concerns about the contemptuous way in which the advice of the EAG was treated by NPWS (DoEH) during the development of this Code of Practice, and were assured that she would look into getting some sort of "collaborative" satisfactory outcome. There was utter silence from her until the crowing started about the great breakthrough of herps being sold in petshops, along with the sting in the tail - the legal enforcement of new rules for reptile keepers. She relies on advice from her bureaucrats, and apparently listens to noone else, even two of the most experienced and well respected herp people, not just in Oz, but the world.

The Department (like most wildlife authorities across the country) has missed out on a great chance to be seen to work collaboratively with reptile keepers to ensure good outcomes for reptile pets in NSW, and has relied on the sledgehammer approach - bugger the PR consequences for the department and keepers. They continually alienate keepers - the very people who can help them in their work, because they have the "power." The fact that a better, more trusting relationship between keepers and NPWS operatives would benefit all, including our reptile charges, simply escapes them. Of course it will lead to more secrecy and covert activity with keepers, because that's exactly how the Department operated to get this thing installed into law. However, the bureaucrat pushing this barrow for NPWS has now left and is working for the RSPCA, which probably says something in itself...

Of course, there were already perfectly useful avenues for charges of cruelty to any animal to be successfully prosecuted in the courts, but this was an idealogical pursuit driven by a couple of individuals who decided that things need to change.

OEH is currently undergoing a major restructure, with the loss of a significant number of jobs, so the appointment of 15 new inspectors sounds far-fetched to me. They barely have the resources to do the basics now...

I know that, should any prosecution under the new regs seem unreasonable to members of the EAG, that a number of them have pledged to appear in court in support of the person unreasonably charged, so in that event, it could be an interesting time for keepers...

Having said all that about the PRINCIPLE of our treatment at the hands of just a couple of government bureaucrats, I have to say that keepers in NSW are still in a far better position that those in WA, where fear of punishment still reigns supreme. I have, in the course of my day-to-day activities, some contact with NSW NPWS staff, and to a man/woman, they are polite, courteous, thoughtful and generally pragmatic. It would be a mistake to think that the field staff of this Department will enjoy this new-found power over keepers, which has the potential to sour the public relationship even further. The field staff are the ones in the hot seat, put there by the senseless directives from head office.

I believe that little will change over time, keepers will not (and should not) go to the trouble and expense of building new enclosures when the ones they already use are perfectly satisfactory, and their animals remain in very good health... And after all is said & done, isn't the health of our animals what it's all about???

Jamie


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## wokka (Jun 25, 2013)

It is sad that so much of the hobbies wisdom has been allienated by the transient consultants engauged by NPWS who have no long term commitment to the growth and maintainence of our hobby. At a time when all department budgets are under pressure it seems foolish to ignore a free rescouce which has 100s of years of collective practical experience and qualifications. After seeing what NPWS do to smugglers who risk the Australian health status, I doubt that keepers have too much to fear if there cages a a little short. It may be better to stick with what works, rather than to risk a change simply to tick the boxes.


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## bk201 (Jun 25, 2013)

My pair of blotch blueys have been in a 120x45x45 for 3 years and only use about half the tank to bask and sleep under the same log in the basking area
so 2 E class skinks = 0.375 x 1.5 = 0.5625m 
1) my current enclosure 120 x 45 = 0.540
2) the new enclosure i need 120 x 47 = 0.564 

so less than 2 cm wider is what makes enclosure 2 legal 

Even a claus that gives people with older enclosures 10% +/- would save people hassle money and time


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## wokka (Jun 25, 2013)

bk201 said:


> My pair of blotch blueys have been in a 120x45x45 for 3 years and only use about half the tank to bask and sleep under the same log in the basking area
> so 2 E class skinks = 0.375 x 1.5 = 0.5625m
> 1) my current enclosure 120 x 45 = 0.540
> 2) the new enclosure i need 120 x 47 = 0.564
> ...



Hopefully they wont send you to jail if you get caught out, as I hear some of the cells might not comply with the COP. I dont know what factor you apply if a person is in the cage/cell with the bluie.lol


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## Skeptic (Jun 25, 2013)

wokka said:


> Hopefully they wont send you to jail if you get caught out, as I hear some of the cells might not comply with the COP. I dont know what factor you apply if a person is in the cage/cell with the bluie.lol



The cell would have to be at least 50% larger per additional bluetongue/human


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## Umbral (Jun 25, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> If it turns out my taking out a licence takes away my right to privacy in my own home, I for one will not be renewing when it comes due.
> 
> A moratorium by keepers going on strike wrt renewing their licences when due might be the only measure that will force change if enough chose to go on strike and NOT PAY to renew.That would be a substantial hit to their revenue stream.
> 
> ...


You may need to think one step further. If they see you had animals on hand when your license expires and you don't renew it you will be high up on their list to get a warrant to come into your home.

At the end of it they will get more revenue out of you in the form of fines than if you had just renewed your licence.


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## andynic07 (Jun 25, 2013)

I think that your argument will have more weight if you state what parts you like and what parts you want changed. That way they might be more willing to work with you. I think there should be minimum sizes to prevent the people who are just in it for the money from housing reptiles in unsuitable conditions.


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## Bart70 (Jun 25, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> If it turns out my taking out a licence takes away my right to privacy in my own home, I for one will not be renewing when it comes due.
> .




And it took you till now to realise that inspections were a part of your licence terms?

Has been that way for many years now......



Skeptic said:


> The cell would have to be at least 50% larger per additional bluetongue/human



Yes...but would the shortest floor dimension need to be a minimum 20% of the length of the human?

....and what is the definition of the length of a human?....Are they measured lying down or standing up??


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## FusionMorelia (Jun 25, 2013)

constructive criticism is a useful tool, specifically if your attempting to "protest" a government body.


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## saximus (Jun 25, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> So your an expert in English or have a literary degree? I didn't write it so why criticize it, if you have concerns, go talk to John Mostyn, Head of the Hawksbury Herps Society, or to Andrew Camelleri over at Cano's reptiles, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to listen to your whining. Thepoint of this thread is to ask people to take part in a protest.



I don't think he was attacking anyone. He was merely pointing out that, to be taken seriously by an official government department, the errors need to be fixed rather than having people just copying and pasting it.


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## Skeptic (Jun 25, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> So your an expert in English or have a literary degree? I didn't write it so why criticize it, if you have concerns, go talk to John Mostyn, Head of the Hawksbury Herps Society, or to Andrew Camelleri over at Cano's reptiles, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to listen to your whining. *Thepoint* of this thread is to ask people to take part in a protest.



Are you sure you didn't write it? 

I do think if we wish to be taken seriously on this issue we should put together a letter that doesn't look like a school kid wrote it.

I'm not having a go at you (or the authors), but if it looked like a couple of thousand herpers looked at that letter, put their signature on it and didn't notice the errors, we could come across as looking rather silly.

Sax beat me to it


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 25, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> So your an expert in English or have a literary degree? I didn't write it so why criticize it, if you have concerns, go talk to John Mostyn, Head of the Hawksbury Herps Society, or to Andrew Camelleri over at Cano's reptiles, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to listen to your whining. Thepoint of this thread is to ask people to take part in a protest.



I'm sorry you can't differentiate between a comment and a criticism matey. I truly realise what the point of the thread was, but the point of the letter is to send it to the Minister if I'm not mistaken. So it should be tip-top before that is done. John is a friend of mine, so I think you need to get off your high-horse. Don't accuse me of whining matey - I, like others who worked on the EAG, put in hundreds of unpaid hours on this bloody "Code of Practice," just to be shown that our time was wasted. And for me it was the cost in time & fuel for numerous trips from Telegraph Point to Sydney. 

The biggest problem we have in getting any kind of useful consensus in the herpetological community is aggressive bozos like you bringing a nasty sentiment from within our own community. What's your problem? It's a simple matter to pull the errors out of that letter... but maybe you can't see them. I can, and I'm even very happy to do it for you if you ask nicely.

Jamie


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## BeZaKa (Jun 25, 2013)

Just a thought and I understand that a lot of this to and fro is people passionate in their beleifs, however, should this passion not be directed more constructively towards those attempting to enforce these laws, which in the opinion of what seems to be many on this forum, unjustly??? (My 2 cents)


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## =bECS= (Jun 25, 2013)

Please don't turn the thread into the usual slinging match. 
Jamie is right. The spelling, punctuation and grammar would be better if corrected, considering it's an official FORMAL letter to a government department.
That doesn't mean people have to get their backs up and turn it into a measuring contest in the bathroom out back 
Just fix the errors before sending it or someone can re-paste it with the letter corrected, it's not hard and it wasn't an attack on the OP either


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 25, 2013)

As I said, I'm happy to do it. I was an editor before I got involved with bad influences and lost my job ! I have to go and see a neighbour now, but will do it when I come back in a half-hour or so. Probably just should have just done it & shut up...

J


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Drs Peter Harlow from Taronga and Glenn Shea from Sydney Uni met with the Minister in January this year, to express their concerns about the contemptuous way in which the advice of the EAG was treated by NPWS (DoEH) during the development of this Code of Practice, and were assured that she would look into getting some sort of "collaborative" satisfactory outcome. There was utter silence from her until the crowing started about the great breakthrough of herps being sold in petshops, along with the sting in the tail - the legal enforcement of new rules for reptile keepers. She relies on advice from her bureaucrats, and apparently listens to noone else, even two of the most experienced and well respected herp people, not just in Oz, but the world.
> 
> The Department (like most wildlife authorities across the country) has missed out on a great chance to be seen to work collaboratively with reptile keepers to ensure good outcomes for reptile pets in NSW, and has relied on the sledgehammer approach - bugger the PR consequences for the department and keepers. They continually alienate keepers - the very people who can help them in their work, because they have the "power." The fact that a better, more trusting relationship between keepers and NPWS operatives would benefit all, including our reptile charges, simply escapes them. Of course it will lead to more secrecy and covert activity with keepers, because that's exactly how the Department operated to get this thing installed into law. However, the bureaucrat pushing this barrow for NPWS has now left and is working for the RSPCA, which probably says something in itself...
> 
> ...



Well said.

I might make an observation that perhaps the ring leaders in this "activitism" attempt are driven more by their personal political agendas (against regulation) and by their self interest.


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## =bECS= (Jun 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> As I said, I'm happy to do it. I was an editor before I got involved with bad influences and lost my job !


 Can you please do one Jamie 


For what it's worth:
Perhaps keepers can put aside their egos in this matter and unite for a change instead of the usual infighting, which is rife within the hobby (mainly within online forums) and has driven a lot of well respected keepers away from the forums, especially this one!


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## wokka (Jun 25, 2013)

=bECS= said:


> That doesn't mean people have to get their backs up and turn it into a measuring contest in the bathroom out back


Given Jamie's confession, in his redback bite thread, that he may develop horse like characteristics from the serum he received, I think he should be excluded from any measuring contests.


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## =bECS= (Jun 25, 2013)

^ :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 25, 2013)

wokka said:


> Given Jamie's confession, in his redback bite thread, that he may develop horse like characteristics from the serum he received, I think he should be excluded from any measuring contests.



Now that's not fair wokka... just as I'm getting a chance to reach a new prime at the age of 64... and you want to take it away from me !

J


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## =bECS= (Jun 25, 2013)

wokka said:


> Given Jamie's confession, in his redback bite thread, that he may develop horse like characteristics from the serum he received, I think he should be excluded from any measuring contests.



I don't mind as long as you all clean and disinfect the ruler before putting it back in the draw


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 25, 2013)

Here's a modified letter, grammar & spacing cleaned up. I have a problem with point 3 - it negates the need for points one & two if implemented, so it's unclear what you want, compensation because it is becoming law or for the Code to be guidelines only. If the Code is to be guidelines only, the Dept cannot mandate the sizes of enclosures sold by commercial outlets. Which do you want? Unless you are specific, clear about what you want, and well-reasoned, you have no chance of getting anywhere (which is probably the case anyway, but I enjoy a good debate...)

Jamie


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## lizardwhisperer (Jun 25, 2013)

If this is going to be done , might I suggest that the leading lights here in this "activitism" movement give precise and detailed charges to the "guidelines" as part of their submission, so the relevant personages can see exactly what is wrong with their "guidelines" , else this is going to be entirely a waste of time and bother.

It's worthless complaigning and saying you don't like te rules without giving precise reasons and precise changes required.


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## wokka (Jun 26, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> If this is going to be done , might I suggest that the leading lights here in this "activitism" movement give precise and detailed charges to the "guidelines" as part of their submission, so the relevant personages can see exactly what is wrong with their "guidelines" , else this is going to be entirely a waste of time and bother.
> 
> It's worthless complaigning and saying you don't like te rules without giving precise reasons and precise changes required.[/QUOTE
> John Moyston was part of the advisory group and as such part of the unanimous support for a detailed letted sent prabably a year ago. ( I am sure Jamie could give the exact date) This letter went through the code guidelines (as they were then) by guideline analysing it from a scientific angle, with input primarily from Glen Shea. To my knowledege no detailed response was ever received. I presume John Moyston was pursuing another angle, with the letter in this thread, as the President of the Hawkesbury Herp Club. It is hard to challenge the government employees who are getting paid to push their point, with a voluntary committee who, as Jamie has pointed out, shoulder considerable personal cost to represent their industry.


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## saximus (Jun 26, 2013)

lizardwhisperer said:


> If this is going to be done , might I suggest that the leading lights here in this "activitism" movement give precise and detailed charges to the "guidelines" as part of their submission, so the relevant personages can see exactly what is wrong with their "guidelines" , else this is going to be entirely a waste of time and bother.
> 
> It's worthless complaigning and saying you don't like te rules without giving precise reasons and precise changes required.



Huh? Have you read any of this thread? Have you read the letter? It is quite clear what the reasons are and what the proposed changes would be.


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## hulloosenator (Jul 4, 2013)

well............i havnt read the new rules regarding cage sizes............and wont.
I dont care . They wont enforce it. They dont have the manpower . Think what you like , but , geeeez ....... get real.

just dont know what you are all huffing and puffing over........ if you did all your research in the first place , you would have made proper sized cages in the first place........ lol

but.... what is the correct size ? Looks like only NPWS know the answer...... hahaha


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## Focus (Jul 7, 2013)

A few people have mentioned 'going to the media' if nothing gets done. I may be naive, but am I the only one who thinks that might actually hurt rather than help? The average Joe has no idea about the needs of snakes in captivity and trying to draw attention to the issue publicly will result in a lot of people thinking that snake keepers are making a big fuss over not being able to keep snakes in tiny tubs. To someone who doesn't know, larger enclosures for any animals automatically sounds better. All it would take from the opposing side is a couple of pictures and videos of snakes being kept in atrocious conditions to sway the public regardless of how many well-respected herpers tried to educate them. Might not even take that, pictures of reptiles being sold in chinese containers at expos could cause a stir I'm sure. You'd have to win the education battle somehow.

Just a thought.


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## Lawra (Jul 8, 2013)

The code does recognise that each situation is different. In the preface it specifically states that there are exemptions and I agree with the code. I believe that pets should be kept in larger enclosures and be happy.

I'm from NSW and recently moved to QLD but I think regardless of state, there needs to be guidelines. Reptiles aren't domesticated animals and haven't been kept as pets for as long as dogs and cats (for example). 

I'm really interested to find out exactly why so many people are up in arms about this. Is it just the matter of principle? Because all I can see is that this code is focused on keeping our pets safe and happy.

A bigger enclosure for our pets is not something we should whinge about. At all. It's a tiny space in our house compared to how much room we have for ourselves. Our neighbours let their cats and dogs roam around their house while most keep their reptile in a heated box. 

Whinge and petition all you want, I don't see how you're fighting for any greater good.


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## hilly (Jul 8, 2013)

.


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## RedFox (Jul 8, 2013)

Lawra said:


> The code does recognise that each situation is different. In the preface it specifically states that there are exemptions and I agree with the code. I believe that pets should be kept in larger enclosures and be happy.
> 
> I'm from NSW and recently moved to QLD but I think regardless of state, there needs to be guidelines. Reptiles aren't domesticated animals and haven't been kept as pets for as long as dogs and cats (for example).
> 
> ...



*sigh* I guess you don't ever want to own a monitor or house turtles outside. As established earlier in the thread, snake, dragon, gecko dimensions are reasonable. The monitor sizes will ensure that very few people will be able to keep the larger monitors let alone breed them. 

Also it is the fact that these 'guidelines' aren't guidelines at all but enforceable by law. And they were done by a group of paper pushers who thought they knew better than some of the countries more experienced keepers and herpetologist. 

While I don't live in NSW, I can see the other states bringing in their own enforceable code.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 8, 2013)

Lawra said:


> The code does recognise that each situation is different. In the preface it specifically states that there are exemptions and I agree with the code. I believe that pets should be kept in larger enclosures and be happy.
> 
> I'm from NSW and recently moved to QLD but I think regardless of state, there needs to be guidelines. Reptiles aren't domesticated animals and haven't been kept as pets for as long as dogs and cats (for example).
> 
> ...



You totally miss the point. You use of the term "happy," twice in your post, when referring to a sentiment that we cannot be sure a reptile even feels, is simply anthropomorphism, which removes objectivity from the discussion. For me, a far stronger indication that we are doing it right is "health," without which "happiness" cannot exist. Collectively, our reptiles have never been healthier, or bred better, since we learned what parameters are necessary to keep them healthy.

I don't think you're "really interested to find out exactly why people are up in arms about this." It has been pointed out, by me, that a dozen of the country's most experienced herp experts, with about three centuries of collective knowledge, were asked by NPWS to collaborate with them to produce a Code of Practice to assist keepers with husbandry practices. I have explained the background to our unanimous rejection of the Code being mandated in law, rather than used as an educational guideline, on several threads on this site.

Your objection is based purely on personal sentiment, and that's fine - you're entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to advocate to have your personal opinions set into law which will affect many thousands of keepers in NSW, simply because you have a particular belief. That is exactly what has happened in NSW. Bureaucrats with a particular set of personal beliefs set about to install into law, without demonstrating that there was any need, a range of constraints on keepers which are only a reflection of their own values. The entire Code is a totally arbitary document, and as such will do nothing to assist or improve the health (and "happiness" if you like) of our captives.

I literally do have far more concern about the dreadful things that many keepers do to their rats, the keeping AND ESPECIALLY the killing of, than I do about the way the average keeper looks after his/her reptiles.

Jamie


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 8, 2013)

I would like to include part of an email that Macarthur Herp members received to further convince people of what is really going on. This info was dated 27th of June.
_________________________
For those of you who missed our meeting last Friday night, we had a very interesting chat by guest speaker Darren Earnshaw his husbandry and breeding of various Tiliqua species.
Darren was also accompanied by reknown keeper Bob Withey who spoke to us regarding the Code of Practice (Minimum Cage Sizes).

As promised to those at the meeting, I have attached a copy of the letter Bob has urged us all to sign and forward to the Minister for the Environment. The copy I have attached is in a format whereby you can edit to insert your name and address, and make any changes you feel appropriate.

Please remember, whilst these cage sizes may have no effect on you at this time, there is no guarantee this is true for the future.

As stated on Friday night, the Reptile Societies during consultation were initially advised the cage sizes would be GUIDELINES NOT ENFORCEABLE LAWS!

Macarthur Herpetological Committee members were NEVER included in the discussions and have had no input. This is YOUR opportunity to have a say in this matter. 

If the laws are deemed enforceable, where does it stop? Do they get to control your collection further in the future?

I therefore URGE you all to alter the letter to suit your opinions and send your letter as soon as possible. Feel free to have every adult you know wade in on this on your (our) behalf.

Kind Regards,

Rhonda Glover
President
Macarthur Herpetological Society Inc.
___________________________
whether people think this COD is ok atm, this does not mean the Govt will stop. They have only put up these enforcable laws in order to pick on the minority that is reptile owners and because this was brought in early in the morning, forced in without consult right after the reptiles being allowed to be sold in pet stores was brought in late night the day before, it was rushed in without any consideration or consult. Why not pick on bird, amphibian and mammal owners as well, because they won't, they are just using us as a target and those who don't support a protest are pretty much giving up and being an obediant little zombie of society. Rhonda is right, where are they going to stop. They will not unless we stand up for our right to have reptiles as pets.


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## Lawra (Jul 8, 2013)

Ok, my apologies for using "happy" so freely in my post.

I have actually read all previous posts. 

I am still not understanding why minimum sizes are bad?


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## Rogue5861 (Jul 8, 2013)

Lawra said:


> Ok, my apologies for using "happy" so freely in my post.
> 
> I have actually read all previous posts.
> 
> I am still not understanding why minimum sizes are bad?



Minimum sizes are fine, it's just for monitors and turtles they are far to big to consider a minimum size. 

1400x700mm enclosure for 1 Ridge Tailed Monitor when a trio will comfortably live in a 1200x600mm with no ill effects on the reptiles. Add 50% extra for a second animal an a further 20% for a third. That is well an truly bigger then this species requires.


Rick


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 8, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> Minimum sizes are fine, it's just for monitors and turtles they are far to big to consider a minimum size.
> 
> 1400x700mm enclosure for 1 Ridge Tailed Monitor when a trio will comfortably live in a 1200x600mm with no ill effects on the reptiles. Add 50% extra for a second animal an a further 20% for a third. That is well an truly bigger then this species requires.
> 
> ...


I'd like to add Rick that at some stage I have had 2 adult carpets in a 4ft cage temporarily. WHile the new COP states that a D type python needs to have a minimum of one animal in a 4ft space of 125 x 50 cms, my pair appeared to be ok with the space at the time.


And for Lawra's benefit, I will add that the Government is trying to phase out those who use breeding racks for multiple breeding projects, they really do not want private breeders operating at all actually. For those of us who buy carpet python morphs like myself, I am thankful that some out there are breeding with approprioately sized rack systems, because how else would we be able to get so many pretty patterns for carpets and make them available for the rest of us and have something to aspire to to breed for ourselves or wish to own someday when its affordable?


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## Lawra (Jul 9, 2013)

Thank you for your patience and taking the time to explain


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## Jungletrans (Jul 9, 2013)

I Am happy that racks will be banned :]


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 9, 2013)

Jungletrans said:


> I Am happy that racks will be banned :]



Well, hopefully you will be saddened again in the knowledge that racks won't actually be fully banned, even though bureaucrats find them distasteful.

Snakes love nothing better than having a full belly and curling up somewhere tight, secure and warm... in many, if not most cases, racks fit the bill perfectly. Anthropomorphic thinking does a disservice to reptiles and serious, knowledgeable keepers everywhere.

But like some others who have contributed to this thread in support of this imposition, you miss the point of objection totally.

Jamie


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## wokka (Jul 9, 2013)

Jungletrans said:


> I Am happy that racks will be banned :]


I dont think racks will be banned.By my reading requirements for cages or racks are the same.


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## Jungletrans (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm still happy ;]


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 9, 2013)

Jungletrans said:


> I'm still happy ;]



Lovely... that's the way it should be!

J


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## zulu (Jul 9, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> I would like to include part of an email that Macarthur Herp members received to further convince people of what is really going on. This info was dated 27th of June.
> _________________________
> For those of you who missed our meeting last Friday night, we had a very interesting chat by guest speaker Darren Earnshaw his husbandry and breeding of various Tiliqua species.
> Darren was also accompanied by reknown keeper Bob Withey who spoke to us regarding the Code of Practice (Minimum Cage Sizes).
> ...



Didnt you have Peter Johnston on the consultative committee ? I think whats done is done now, they onley wanted to look like they had some consultation at the beginning.
They had everything prepared long before anyway by the NPWS consultant, DECC whatever they are these days has always been difficult to deal with, you will get no where they have a plan and they will stick to it.
Thats government ,we sell coal to china by the shipful so they can burn it for cheap electricity , government is crazy.


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## =bECS= (Jul 10, 2013)

Word on the street is that if a reptile vet deems your enclosure sizes suitable housing for your animals it overrides the COP. Anyone else heard this?


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## Lawra (Jul 10, 2013)

It says that in the preface of the document released.


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## =bECS= (Jul 11, 2013)

Just a reptile vet or any vet? Because if that's all it takes, then we are all pretty much sweet


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## Lawra (Jul 11, 2013)

Haha it only says vet in the doc from memory


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## GeckoJosh (Jul 11, 2013)

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought according to the COP a vet can only dictate enclosure sizes if its a part of medical treatment, so for example unless your whole collection suddenly came down with RI then a vet has no say.


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## wokka (Jul 11, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but I thought a vet can only dictate enclosure sizes if its a part of medical treatment, so unless your whole collection suddenly came down with RI then a vet has no say.


Vets should be involved in prevention not just treatment and part of that may be recommendations on husbandry practices or cage sizes which may differ to the COP.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 11, 2013)

Dr Glenn Shea, a member of the committee, and who did a huge amount of work on enclosure sizes for the committee, and was absolutely opposed to mandating a set of sizes, is an academic veterinarian at Sydney Uni, and a world renowned herpetologist.

Jamie


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## GeckoJosh (Jul 12, 2013)

wokka said:


> Vets should be involved in prevention not just treatment and part of that may be recommendations on husbandry practices or cage sizes which may differ to the COP.



Yes I agree that is how it should be but does the COP allow a vet to stipulate cage sizes for a collection indefinitely to prevent health issues?


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## wokka (Jul 12, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> Yes I agree that is how it should be but does the COP allow a vet to stipulate cage sizes for a collection indefinitely to prevent health issues?


I am not a monitor keeper but there seems to be agreement amongst those who are that cage sizes in the COP are over the top. From my reading of the COP ,a signed statement from a vet, (preferably one who was the monitor collection consultant), confirming that the cages currently used are of satisfactory size, would over ride any requirement re cage sizes in the COP.At this point none of the COP has been tested in law so no precidence exists.-I doubt that it ever will. I believe there are over 20,000 licenced keepers in NSW. How many legal cases do you know of involving licensed keepers over say the last ten years? Why would they bother? Just do the right thing and NPWS will leave you alone.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 6, 2013)

This has been passed onto me by the writer of the letter I posted online. Anyone who wishes to contact Robyn Parker MP directly and voice their concerns are welcome to do so with this number 02 92284497. We really do need more people to get behind this and support the protest against the COP.


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## Skippii (Sep 22, 2013)

This is the first I'm hearing of all this... Are there any updates? I suppose it's probably too late for anything to be done at this point. Disappointing, and quite frankly outrageous, that the voices of worldwide respected herp keepers have been completely ignored..

Guess I'll be dumping the TV cabinet I was converting :| very frustrating. As far as I knew, it was large enough to comfortably house my water python. It's got enough length, got some climbing height (since she loves to climb), and I was under the impression that the depth was sufficient.. But apparently not according to the new regulations. It'll likely be just under 20% of Sierra's adult length (assuming she reaches similar length to her parents). Bah, it's such a beautiful cabinet as well, quite disappointing.


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## wokka (Sep 22, 2013)

As per post #95 a vet could verify that the cage is adequate with perhaps a photo and some measurements. I doubt that the snake will know anything about the COP or care either way.


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## meako (Sep 22, 2013)

Bart70 said:


> No.....It applies now to all reptiles you have in your possession now or at the time of inspection, and any enclosure they are housed within regardless of when it was made or when the animal was purchased, with (from memory) a 12 month 'warning' period before penalty enforcement occurs.
> 
> It might pay a lot of people to actually read them......
> 
> http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/wildlifelicences/20130185ReptileCode.pdf



With this in mind the inspections will probably be as efficiently performed as the emails that are never answered. Its the government.
Pardon my ignorance but what has driven this "initiative" ?

I checked the link and within five seconds found this clause that pretty much wipes out private reptile keeping by most people-
An enclosure must be designed and/or positioned so as to prevent the 
reptile from coming into physical 
contact with wild animals, pests, 
domestic pets, and unauthorised persons. 

why? because unauthorised persons are not known for their adherence to departmental regulations now are they?

who will be policing any of it anyway?/ unless you're doing something terribly wrong this seems like typical **** covering by bean counters in govt jobs.


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## Newhere (Sep 22, 2013)

Who came up with the cage sizes anyway? Like who advised the government on what they should be? 

I think its a bit over the top considering the people that neglect their animals are not going to care at all and this wont stop them. 

How often do you guys get inspections down there? And how are they going to visit every reptile keeper in the state and measure their enclosures? Lol the government cracks me up sometimes they have no idea.


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## ackiekid01 (Sep 27, 2013)

What are the sizes for the monitor cages I can't find them any where


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 27, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Who came up with the cage sizes anyway? Like who advised the government on what they should be?
> 
> I think its a bit over the top considering the people that neglect their animals are not going to care at all and this wont stop them.
> 
> How often do you guys get inspections down there? And how are they going to visit every reptile keeper in the state and measure their enclosures? Lol the government cracks me up sometimes they have no idea.



The "government" basically took advice from the exoert group and then discarded the lot of it and came up with their own formula. The bureaucrat who was pushing this at NPWS is now working for the RSPCA.

Jamie


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## wokka (Sep 27, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The "government" basically took advice from the exoert group and then discarded the lot of it and came up with their own formula. The bureaucrat who was pushing this at NPWS is now working for the RSPCA.
> 
> Jamie


I am not sure that was the case Jamie. I think the government came up with their own formula and then got advice from the expert group to give the process credibility. Unfortunately I think we were conned!


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## shanesaussie_pythons (Feb 24, 2014)

It took many years of keeping in large cages that with snakes that would not settler breeding really think a lot of people either weren't around back then or they don't understand it took sertian keepers years of trial and error cageing Australian snakes before a certain few led the way in learning what got them to settle and start to breed and we learnt how to make pets of them and reptile keying started to grow because of it and they are now asked to step back 20 years I ask why there are what I call taxonimist keepers who keep there stock in massive cages just to look at them and they beleavethats what should happen but we are pet keepers it took us years to learn this the future scares me my thoughts


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## champagne (Feb 24, 2014)

The cage sizes aren't that bad, yes it will effect large breeders but will have very little effect on most keepers


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## saximus (Feb 24, 2014)

.


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 24, 2014)

It always amazes me how the single most important factor in all of this is not the stipulated enclosure sizes, or any of the other CoP impositions on keepers in NSW. The most important matter here is one of principle - that a couple of individuals in a couple of Government departments (OEH and DII), without producing ANY evidence of the need for this code of practice, can spend a lot of time (and waste hundreds of hours of experienced individuals' time whose recommendations were rejected out of hand) cooking up this document, and bringing it into law with the support of the Minister, despite her meeting with Dr Peter Harlow from Taronga and Dr Glenn Shea from the University of Sydney to discuss thye advisory group's objections. The final couple of years of the development of the CoP were done in secrecy when it became evident that the best reptile minds in NSW were opposed to mandatory regs, rather than an educational document of recommendations.

The conduct of the government officers involved has been manipulative and disgraceful, and the Minister was less than helpful. These factors alone far outweigh any impact the CoP will have on keepers in general, and have consigned any notion of cooperatively working together with government to achieve better outcomes for keepers and their pets to the dustbin of history.

Jamie


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## ronhalling (Feb 24, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> It always amazes me how the single most important factor in all of this is not the stipulated enclosure sizes, or any of the other CoP impositions on keepers in NSW. The most important matter here is one of principle - that a couple of individuals in a couple of Government departments (OEH and DII), without producing ANY evidence of the need for this code of practice, can spend a lot of time (and waste hundreds of hours of experienced individuals' time whose recommendations were rejected out of hand) cooking up this document, and bringing it into law with the support of the Minister, despite her meeting with Dr Peter Harlow from Taronga and Dr Glenn Shea from the University of Sydney to discuss thye advisory group's objections. The final couple of years of the development of the CoP were done in secrecy when it became evident that the best reptile minds in NSW were opposed to mandatory regs, rather than an educational document of recommendations.
> 
> The conduct of the government officers involved has been manipulative and disgraceful, and the Minister was less than helpful. These factors alone far outweigh any impact the CoP will have on keepers in general, and have consigned any notion of cooperatively working together with government to achieve better outcomes for keepers and their pets to the dustbin of history.
> 
> Jamie



Very well said Jamie, i would have thought the smoke from the fires of rightious indignation would have settled by now, but i was wrong again, when is everyone going to get it into their collective heads that this useless document is only ever going to be of any value to those who have a bad concience and think their reps are being held in sub-standard conditions, Have any of those that the COP has frightened ever tried to get NPWS, DERM or any of the other reptile governing bodies to do anything, ? Yes well you know how hard it was, So everyone should realize that unless you bring yourself into the spotlight of your local reptile authority then the COP is irrelavent, and in my honest opinion if "YOU" think you are keeping your rep in conditions that "YOU" think are suitable to a healthy and happy life then "YOU" probably are and no amount of useless documents are going to change how "YOU" think. If a study was done taking a representative amount of herpers in NSW say 500 people they would probably find that at least 90% of those in the study kept their herps in larger enclosures than the COP requires and a further 8% of enclosures were within the COP requirements and the last 2% were like all studies and undetermined. How about we get back to enjoying our reps again without feeling like a criminal for what is in all probability no problem.....just my 3.7 cents worth. .....................................Ron


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## Bredli1956 (Feb 24, 2014)

How rediculess not even zoo enclosures are that big for reptiles


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## Pythoninfinite (Feb 25, 2014)

You're spot-on Ron. As you say, most keepers of smaller numbers of snakes (and they are by far the majority) are very generous with regard to the facilities they offer their snakes. Those who negelcted their animals before this CoP came into being will continue to do so. I understand the notion of a CoP had its genesis following a visit by these individuals to a facility where large numbers of venomous snakes are kept for venom production, and their sensitivities were offended by the accommodation offered to these snakes. I've seen the facility myself on several occasions - the snakes are healthy and active, and although it is designed with an eye for keeper safety as well (they are, after all, handling some of the most dangerous snakes in the world on a very regular basis), The needs of the animals are very well taken care of, of course, because they are a significant source of revenue for the facility.

The whole thing was driven by a couple of individuals whose ideological views were allowed to prevail, and who manipulated the messages to their political masters. A group of keepers who were INVITED by the Dept to collaborate with them in the development of a document, and who have collectively have in excess of 300 years experience with captive reptile management, were totally excluded from the process when it became obvious that their views were not aligned with the outcome the Dept sought. As I said in my last post, at no time was any evidence produced to support the need for mandated enclosure sizes.

Jamie


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## Wilfred (Mar 12, 2014)

Where are we up to on this topic


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## Ramsayi (Mar 12, 2014)

Although two NSW expos have already taken place this year we still have two more to go,SOFAR and Illawarra.Perhaps a table can be set up at both asking people to sign a petition that can then be forwarded on to the minister.


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## shanesaussie_pythons (Mar 13, 2014)

I was told that that if you are inspected. And if your cages do not meat COP sizes that they will most likely give an official warning and possibly 6more months to comply. Now I heard this from another keeper so don't quote me .But this last 12months I have tryed to increase some of my pythons to the new sizes but most of my stock have spent the last 16 years in the one size encloses and unfortunately one of the most stressfull things to pet pythons is to change there habitat . But to also increase the sizes was to much they first became flighty and didn't eat as we'll and eventually respitory illnesses started to effect all my long term adults and every one was captive bred so they just didn't handle it I don't want to loose every one it took me many years to learn how to make them into the magnificent pets they became and it was all due to decreasing cage size until they were happy how do I know they liked smaller cage sizes than I used 17 years ago.I know because I watched them thrive by the way they handled the way they were eating and the way they bred it was great to see this hobby take off .I just hope it keeps going the youth of New South Wales need it to I just wish they asked long term keepers for what they thoughts the only part of a pythons body that I have ever seen them try to stretch is there Jaw they don't need to stretch out straight . They are prehensile . Now I'm only talking about cageing pythons but I'm told it effects everyone monitor keepers but I have joined the protest shane


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## borntobnude (Mar 13, 2014)

If these people Really cared about the Animals you would think that a table or two would be sought at ALL Expos to help and Educate the Hobby . 
Having been to many Travel expos there is usually a NSWNPWS table ---with maps and lots of user info . Its not hard is it ?? .. 
Maybe these people are the same ones that think BOLLARDS in national parks is the answer to Everything !!


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