# The Great HYPO Debate! Hypo Jungle??



## Southside Morelia (Nov 7, 2008)

Hey All,

Just thought i'd post a pic or 2 of my"hypo" jungles bred by Snakepower (Zac). 

1st & 2nd pic are of male and 3rd pic is of the female when hatched to show you what colour they were when hatched (courtesy of Zac). 
They are coming up to yearlings and definitely different to any jungles I have ever had. I'm interested to see how they will develop and what offspring they may throw, whether the trait is genetic or not.

I'd like to hear comments from the masses as to their opinions on these animals and should they be called "hypo" or not? 
Any pics of similar animals would be great to see and any forward looking comments on how they may develop would also be cool...

Looking forward to opinions, i'll get a beer and some popcorn...lol


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## Camo (Nov 7, 2008)

They still have a fair bit of black in them so i dont think they are hypo's. It will be interesting to see what other memebrs have to say about them. Either way they are nice jungles


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## beardy_boy_6 (Nov 7, 2008)

that male look great


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 7, 2008)

Greebo said:


> A lot of people think that all Jungles are black and gold. This is not true. Black and gold jungles are merely the most popular form.
> Those pythons are nice Jungles but I can't see how you could call them "hypos".



LOL, here we go, I didn't coin the phrase the breeder did...
I agree Greebo.
The interesting pic is of the hatchie....the redish brown pattern, different yes but common...I don't know, is it? 

Just getting the feedback and i'm not labelling them as hypo, hence the name of the thread, Hypo debate...Hypo Jungle????

Cheers...


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## NCHERPS (Nov 7, 2008)

Nice looking snakes Scott.

I think you have to think about a number of things before potentially labelling snakes one or another.
These would have to include but not limited to the following:

Which locality are these animals from? What is the 'wildtype' phenotype for these animals?
If different, by what degree?
Have the jungles been bred locality true? This would have a bearing on things to, or have they been line bred with similar looking animals?What do they look like as adults, this is obviously very important.

If they look like they have alot less black than a standard' wild type' from that particular localities range, then yes as an adult you could consider using the 'Hypo' tag.


Personally, I think morph tags and in particular the 'Hypo' tag is banded around far too much.

Just my 2 cents!

Neil


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## sigridshurte (Nov 7, 2008)

i think they have way to much black to be hypo's, they are still stunning jungles !!! very nice


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## leighroyaus (Nov 7, 2008)

they look like a pair of coastals i had once. dont really look liek jungles


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## Australis (Nov 7, 2008)

Any chance of photos of adult "hypo" jungles?
I had some tan coloured Athertons, guess they were hypos..lol


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 7, 2008)

Australis said:


> Any chance of photos of adult "hypo" jungles?
> I had some tan coloured Athertons, guess they were hypos..lol



LOL. I guess they were, in the true sense of the word...
I'd like to see some pics as well!
I'll have to ask the breeder. 
I think Zac has posted before somewhere, on this line of reduced black jungles.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

they are not hypo's.


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## mrmikk (Nov 7, 2008)

Nice looking snakes, but definitely not 'hypo' if you are using the term correctly as in hypo-melanistic, ie lacking in melanin.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 7, 2008)

Scott 
I had some hypo looking jungles from my clutches but they did not prove out ?

I think you will find that they will get more black in the pattern with age and look like atherton type jungles etc

Very nice bright colours though .

But not hypo jungles if you ask me 

cheers
Roger


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## cooper123 (Nov 7, 2008)

reduced black but not full hypo


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 7, 2008)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Scott
> I had some hypo looking jungles from my clutches but they did not prove out ?
> 
> I think you will find that they will get more black in the pattern with age and look like atherton type jungles etc
> ...



Thanks Rog,
Mate, i'll tell you they may be the most expensive "Atherton" looking jungles anyone has ever purchased!!! lol Only time will tell hey?

I should have started a poll.

Do you have any pics of yours?


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## MrSpike (Nov 7, 2008)

Regardless of what they are labeled, they are nice looking snakes. I would like some of them in my collection. 

As for the hypo name, I think it really is up to Zac to label them as he wishes, he did produce them.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 7, 2008)

Heres one i thought was a hypo 
Zac has it now , its a nice looking jungle now but not hypo ,
but who knows you may prove yours out , only time will tell .
I ended up calling these reduced black jungles because it appeared to be a random colour phase and not a proven true hypo .


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## Ned_fisch (Nov 7, 2008)

They are exetremely nice Southside. They look similar to my little female, she is 10months old. 

She shed last night so she is looking her best.


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## MoreliaMatt (Nov 7, 2008)

cooper123 said:


> reduced black but not full hypo


???
hypo is reduced black....


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## slacker (Nov 7, 2008)

Greebo said:


> Really? We can just make up names for our snakes now? I don't think so Tim.



Sure we can. I have super-hipermelamistic-expiala-wacky childreni if the Infinite Doom line.


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## Australis (Nov 7, 2008)

MoreliaMatt said:


> ???
> hypo is reduced black....



Sure, but reduced from what exactly?
Whats the benchmark.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 7, 2008)

Australis said:


> Sure, but reduced from what exactly?
> Whats the benchmark.



Exactly...what is it???

Greebo, I agree again!!!!

Personally, I WILL call these reduced black jungles....

When they breed we'll see what happens. 

Slacker...i'll buy it...lol I always seem to get sucked in with NEW morphs etc :lol: :lol:!

Only to find out years ahead they are not what was advertised! :cry:


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## MoreliaMatt (Nov 7, 2008)

Australis said:


> Sure, but reduced from what exactly?
> Whats the benchmark.



i was merely commenting on the comment of cooper123 contradicting himself!


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## The Devil (Nov 8, 2008)

Southside....you haven't given an age of these "hypo" jungles. I'm guessing they are yearlings, well almost.

I'm not interested in the hypo this or hypo that, other than bredli, but I would have thought by this stage they should be showing much better gold.

Do you remember the attached pic....that's the pic I sent you July 2007 when she was 6 months old.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 8, 2008)

The Devil said:


> Southside....you haven't given an age of these "hypo" jungles. I'm guessing they are yearlings, well almost.
> 
> I'm not interested in the hypo this or hypo that, other than bredli, but I would have thought by this stage they should be showing much better gold.
> 
> Do you remember the attached pic....that's the pic I sent you July 2007 when she was 6 months old.



Yeeesss! I do remember such a pic!
Post number 1 big guy...nearly yearlings.
It gets a blurr as you send me soo many pics plus the ones I like to forget of you in your G-string, but we won't go there! lol :lol::lol:


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## The Devil (Nov 8, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> Yeeesss! I do remember such a pic!
> Post number 1 big guy...nearly yearlings.
> It gets a blurr as you send me soo many pics plus the ones I like to forget of you in your G-string, but we won't go there! lol :lol::lol:



Yeah OK, sorry mate. I've been back to your first post and see that you mentioned their age.

The pics of me in a G-string, now, now, you told me you would delete them.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 8, 2008)

LMAO, for the younger members, he looks alright in a non-fruity way!!!:lol::lol:



The Devil said:


> Yeah OK, sorry mate. I've been back to your first post and see that you mentioned their age.
> 
> The pics of me in a G-string, now, now, you told me you would delete them.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 8, 2008)

As far as hypos, axanthics and other known morphs go, I won't call it anything until it's been proven genetically. Otherwise it's just something a bit different.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 8, 2008)

As it SHOULD be!!!


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## turtle (Nov 10, 2008)

WORST THREAD EVER!!
Nice looking coastals though


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## The Devil (Nov 10, 2008)

turtle;1296176
Nice looking coastals though;);)[/quote said:


> You might be right turtle, my first thought was coastal, a second look and I was thinking, strange snake, what is it.
> 
> I will say that I know little about hypo's and have trouble pronouncing the full word(s)
> Even if they are reduced black or (hypo) I would have expected them to be showing good and bright colour by this time.


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## herpkeeper (Nov 10, 2008)

Herbert Valley carpet, only grow to around 5 - 5 & half feet (common form)
by the way, it was placed in a file of some stuff from Charters Towers. 
it's from Ingham


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

turtle said:


> WORST THREAD EVER!!
> Nice looking coastals though



LOL... Do you know something that we don't? If so, please elaborate, or are you only giving your opinion based on the pics?
Do you think the breeder is selling Jungles that are really Coastals?
Honestly not having a go, as the thread title indicates, it's a question wanting opinions from the masses...and I appreciate yours, although some substance to back up your comments would be welcome and appreciated. 
Why is it the worst thread ever? I don't really understand that comment, is it not a Forum for us to talk about animals we all have and to get opinions on same? I'm sure there are many other threads that are less interesting, have a browse!
Herpkeeper, do you think they are what you posted? I'm interested to get your opinion as well.

Nev, they have a reduced black pattern, but the base colour is an ivory colour, not bright but clean at this stage, but the pattern colour is definitely different to jungles that I have owned previously.

Again everyone, I am not claiming these animals as anything out of the ordinary, I am at heart sceptical at present, please read the thread title, it maybe something different or it may not, although constructive comments are always welcome, that is why I am asking...if anyone has seen or has any animals like these.
Thanks...


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## herpkeeper (Nov 10, 2008)

around the Herbert Valley you get coastal / jungle intergrades. these animals are not big animals (as i've stated) most of these animals have head patterns like jungles, they are usually dark inside the mouth like jungles but they are coloured like coastals ! i'm not calling the animal originally posted for any "type" or locale, as carpets are so variable and the one originally posted could be from anywhere !
very similar though don't you think ??? and the pics i've posted here are very typical of the carpets (form) from around the Herbert Valley. i live here & see quite a few ....................


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

herpkeeper said:


> around the Herbert Valley you get coastal / jungle intergrades. these animals are not big animals (as i've stated) most of these animals have head patterns like jungles, they are usually dark inside the mouth like jungles but they are coloured like coastals ! i'm not calling the animal originally posted for any "type" or locale, as carpets are so variable and the one originally posted could be from anywhere !
> very similar though don't you think ??? and the pics i've posted here are very typical of the carpets (form) from around the Herbert Valley. i live here & see quite a few ....................



Mine look similar age to the ones you posted..are they?
And if so, do they look the same when hatchies?


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## turtle (Nov 10, 2008)

I think the snakes are crackers but not hypos in anyway. They look a lot like some coastals i had a while back. Very impressive snakes.


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## herpkeeper (Nov 10, 2008)

personally i would call them an intergrade based on a few factors. head pattern, the darkness inside the mouth, and overall size & the Herbert Valley is the cut off point for jungle carpets. some might disagree, but you would have to take these factors into account.
either way, they are a nice form of carpet, but not "hypo" as such......


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## congo_python (Nov 10, 2008)

Nice snakes u have there southy hope they prove out for you.

Congo


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## mungus (Nov 10, 2008)

Look intergrade to me.
I prefer the classic black/gold, black/yellow jungle.
Cant go past some that the Devil breeds.


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## Jungleland (Nov 10, 2008)

Hi Scott,

What is the whole purpose of this thread? Be honest

You bought them animals on the first place and now asking questions?

You should have done your homework before purchasing that would have save you a lot of sarcasm.Heard of saying buyers beware.

I actually remember you before you change your user name, sending me PM and emails asking me to sell you animals, remember you even mentioned you don't care what they are even if they are crosses long as they looked good. now hypo or not you got a good looking snakes

I agree with turtle that this thread is one of the worst ever.

You have a problem with your animals take it on to the breeder, but hey be fair.

Regards,

Joel


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## wiz-fiz (Nov 10, 2008)

if "hypo" is reduced black maybe.if "hypo" is complete lack of black pigment then know way, are they "hypo"


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 10, 2008)

Tell you what, if you wanna sell that male, gimme a hoy. I'd be more then happy to have him 

As I've already said, they're just jungles until it proves genetic. Then I'll consider calling them hypo. I'll be keen to see em at 2 - 3 year old.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

Joel,
The purpose of this thread is to get the opinions of the people in the hobby as to what they think these animals could turn out like for my curiosity alone. Nothing else!

I purchased these animals as "hypo jungles" and am excited albeit apprehensive of the development and outcome of them now nearing yearlings! Wouldn't you for an animal that cost you $1500? Come on mate....don't be fooled by all you here, you don't know me at all...
Sure, the homework was done and please don't insinuate or assume that it wasn't, yes, I agree buyer beware, so what are you saying there Joel...is the buyer has to be aware of people selling animals that they are not? In the Business world my friend, that is False Advertising and punishable by the law!
Joel, I know you are in Zacs corner and good on you, that's commendable, but I asked you if you had "jagish" looking animals in my PM as I am a collector of good specimens, whether they are jungles or Coastals....correct me if I am wrong. That at the time, was the type of animal I was looking for. I again spent $5K from Zac for animals of that description....hold on it was $10K last season alone with the rest of the animals I purchased!!! My hard earned cash champ!
Agree with turtle or not, he thinks they are Coastals....go figure, they were sold to me as "hypo" jungles...so don't quote someone who is disagreeing with my original knowledge of these animals being Jungles...LMAO. whatever!!!!
Take it up with the breeder...already done mate, do your resaearch instead of being some ill-inforned puppet who has been (assumed) asked to make a post! Honestly, this is laughable and please don't try and undermine my integrity by getting involved with something that only Zac and I are privy to.l!
Mate, $10K on animals off ONE breeder alone in 3 months, is pretty comendable in my books! 



Jungleland said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> What is the whole purpose of this thread? Be honest
> 
> ...


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

And just a note, I always said Zac's animals are up there with the best, check my previous posts and ask other members who have asked me previously about them! The thread was not about slagging Zac, it was about opinions...


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## Saz (Nov 10, 2008)

I got a male from the same breeder, I think he shares the same Dad (Dad was Tully locale from R.Lester) as yours but had a different Mum? 

I bought him to breed with my beautiful R.Lester Tully girl Lilly. I think they will make a good pair eventually. 



Here's Lilly

A recent pic taken last month






and an older pic





Here's my boy when he was a nipper





And pics taken last month


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## Jungleland (Nov 10, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> Joel,
> The purpose of this thread is to get the opinions of the people in the hobby as to what they think these animals could turn out like for my curiosity alone. Nothing else!
> 
> I purchased these animals as "hypo jungles" and am excited albeit apprehensive of the development and outcome of them now nearing yearlings! Wouldn't you for an animal that cost you $1500? Come on mate....don't be fooled by all you here, you don't know me at all...
> ...


 
Hi Scott,

I am not undermining your integrity at all.

Your previous post stating that this is probably the most expensive athertons you bought and also asking someone if they think the breeder would sell coastals as jungles is a silly question to ask. a good sign that you are not a happy boy.

I'm no ill-informed puppet either and no-one dictates to me to make a post or not.

And again not my business how much you spend on breeders , your money your business.

If this is something private between you and Zac why put it on a forum?

regards,

Joel


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

Joel,
I do not have a beef with you or anyone for that matter.
I have ALWAYS respected you and your input into this hobby and have as you say, enquired about your animals as everyone knows..top notch!
If you read the posts...there is another very well respected breeder who says he has seen animals like this turn in to Atherton looking animals! My comment was a tongue in cheek comment "well they would be the most expensive Atherton looking animals ever purchased".
A joke mate...don't insinuate, read the context of the post!
Again, you are a smart person, look at the thread title and please don't make a mountain out of a mole hill and bore everyone with the politics of keeping herps..it's ridiculous and immature and the thread was started to get peoples opinions on an animal...it's the reason we are here to share opinions...isn't it?



Jungleland said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> I am not undermining your integrity at all.
> 
> ...


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## Jungleland (Nov 10, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> Joel,
> I do not have a beef with you or anyone for that matter.
> I have ALWAYS respected you and your input into this hobby and have as you say, enquired about your animals as everyone knows..top notch!
> If you read the posts...there is another very well respected breeder who says he has seen animals like this turn in to Atherton looking animals! My comment was a tongue in cheek comment "well they would be the most expensive Atherton looking animals ever purchased".
> ...


 
Me make a mountain out of a mole hill....... you got the wrong man

Have a good day!!

Joel


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

Jungleland said:


> Me make a mountain out of a mole hill....... you got the wrong man
> 
> Have a good day!!
> 
> Joel



Well in he inside, maybe don't get involved and shoot from the hip without knowing the facts!

You too!


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## SnakePower (Nov 10, 2008)

Scott,

That male is looking superb!! Looking at him now, I really think I should have kept him! LOL Oh well hopefully I will get some more this season.  

I was trying to leave this thread to it's own devices, I didn't really see the point to it, when Scott knew exactly what the animals are and why the hell would I want to sell coastals as jungles when these days coastal morphs can fetch much higher prices than any jungles available today???  But, obviously since Scott has chosen not to respond to my PM asking about the whole point, and this thread seems to be getting way off track, I guess I am forced to make a few things clear...

Funny how time changes people’s attitudes… When these guys were first hatched there was a thread titled “hypo jungles???” started not by myself, but by Mark Sim, in which Mark and I both had hatched some of these different looking animals and many people saw and commented on how these were possibly something new and were accepted as such. Only time could predict the result of these animals development, as well as if they would hold true. They were basically red jungle hatchies and they were the first Mark, myself and many others had seen of anything like them, thus the possibility of them being Hypo (reduced black) jungles.

The animal that Roger posted is an attractive animal, but is nothing like these animals. If you look at the pic Roger posted when comparing to the juvie pic of Scott's male you can clearly see that Roger's animal has a solid black pattern, while Scott's is very light and has no solid black patterning at all. In fact no one has yet posted anything really like these animals. Well actually Saz has posted theonly animal that even resembles this animal of Scotts.

Here is a pic of the male as a hatchie prior to Scott getting him, this pic was taken after his second shed...





Definition of HYPO is a reduced level of black from the norm, not a complete lack of black pigment, that is an albino. So these animals are certainly fitting by definition. 

For those that think they look like coastals, here is a typical type jungle clutchmate, and it is clearly quite obviously a jungle! A nice one, with good colour and normal amounts of black, as it is at now just coming onto a year old. Clearly these "possibly hypo" animals are different.





Further, these animals were not advertised at all, they were animals I was keeping as they were different. But recalling the fact of you wanting something different and NOW... combined with constant hassling is what lead to the purchase of these animals. It was from constant hassling and asking for morphs that led to these. You paid a premium price on them as they were so different. Anything new always has a higher price tag attached to it, that is true of any animal. Still they were only around the cost of some of the quality B&W animals around, which for a possible new morph is more than reasonable. 

I did say they were hypos as they appeared at the time, and in comparison to all the other jungles I had hatched or seen. To me they are still considerably different to the norm and YES until they fully grow up and are bred, we will not know what they will produce and how the mutation expresses itself. BUT... this was pointed out very clearly and discussed in detail, prior to you buying them. It was your choice to try something that could be new, fully knowing the fact that until they grow and get bred the true "morph factor" would not be known about them. 

Clearly you have issues now, whether they have come from other's influence on you or not I can't say, but I have my suspicions. I certainly regret selling them to you since you obviously don't appreciate having had the opportunity to own something a little unique. I take offence to having you making subtle insinuations throughout this thread, when you knew exactly the position I held on these animals prior to you purchasing them. 

Zac


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## No-two (Nov 10, 2008)

I fail to see how it resembles hypo in anyway.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 10, 2008)

to me they are not hypo's, still a heap of black in em still.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

Sorry Zac, I actually sent you the first PM asking YOU to help me in clarifying the origins of these animals as people has asked to see pics of the parents!!! Remember? I don't know that, only you do.
You replied and said you could not..end of communication! That was at the start of this thread, so please don't imply differently.

I have no regrets at all, when did I say that?
I merely asked for opinions on these animals that's all! jump to conclusions if you wish as people that are defensive have a reason to be!
$10K in 3 months or so, mate who else spent that much cash with you?
Thanks for respecting your customers, that's service with a smile for sure!
Thanks for clearing it up for everyone, it's all I asked you to do when I first posted the thread!


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## mungus (Nov 10, 2008)

I must honestly say that Zac's very indepth reply shed's a new light on this thread.
I tend to believe him 100%.
It take's years to build a reputation in this hobby and it can destroyed by a thread such as this !!!
You obviously knew what you were buying [ hypo or not ].
I dont know off too many breeders who would let such animals go, he trusted them to you [ obviously for a price that you were willing to pay ].
To start a thread like this, you must'nt be happy with what you got.
Tough tit tit's mate, I wonder what will happen when they breed and spit out something special ??
I think you hurt a few people's feelings......................


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## No-two (Nov 10, 2008)

While we're at it though and on the hypo debate. If anyones interested this season I'll have hypo stimmies and hypo childreni for sale. Not black at all


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 10, 2008)

mungus said:


> I must honestly say that Zac's very indepth reply shed's a new light on this thread.
> I tend to believe him 100%.
> It take's years to build a reputation in this hobby and it can destroyed by a thread such as this !!!
> You obviously knew what you were buying [ hypo or not ].
> ...



Who were the few???
That intention was never even contemplated nor intended!!!
Hey, it didn't start out to be intended like it ended...look at the first post!
If you have read my posts on other forums about these animals you would think different.
If you knew the full story you may feel differently, but hey I hope this thread is closed but not forgotten.
You know what Mungus, I have had PM's that said kill em... their hybrids etc etc, that crap & NO CHANCE of that, but I have copped flack for this thread even though it was a only to get opinions on their future if anything! Not about me, but about the animals...again I have always said they are different and special, the thread was originally titled: would you "classify them as hypo's".
I do not have to defend myself after forking out my hard earned cash on these animals, what have I done wrong? UUUMMM nothing I was the purchaser who asked the questions and purchased what I was offred! 
I Started a thread on opinions on animals I have PAID for and am interested in how they may turn out because I don;t have any others like them..lol
Thanks for your comment.........


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 11, 2008)

My apologies to anyone that may have been offended by this thread, it was not the intention.

I guess for me the excitement of having such a different animal was in no terms crushed as the thread progressed, hence the spiralling downturn of the thread. 

Zac has some stunning animals and I have a few of them and he is working on some great projects that we all will see the results of soon enough. 
If per chance these animals DO throw something special which is what I had always hoped for...Zac will get the credit first up no-problems at all!!

Time to move on hey....


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## Retic (Nov 11, 2008)

OK, this is (probably) my one and only post in this thread. Those Jungles are very nice indeed and by definition must be considered hypo as they are certainly lacking the 'normal' amount of black. It must be remembered that hypo lines often start with animals that still have a fair amount of black and the trait is refined over the generations. 
I have no doubt they are 'different' and should produce some crackers. 
I would be happy to own them as you no doubt are.


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## Saz (Nov 11, 2008)

I think they are beautiful. I didn't buy mine as a 'hypo' as such, I was just looking for a suitable male for Lilly. Very pleased with how he is turning out. They are going to be a good match.


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## Australis (Nov 11, 2008)

The definition is so massively broad it leaves itself open for unbridled usage. 
Which to me makes the term in itself nearly useless, as just about any animal
could be labeled "hypo" as long as theres other animals darker than it?

Heres an $150 Atherton Carpet., oops, sorry $1500 Hypo jungle..
Im now just kicking myself for giving this amazing jungle morph away.. :|


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## indicus (Nov 11, 2008)

A good example of the extreme variation that can be seen within any given clutch.
Some light, some dark, striped, banded etc.
As Greebo suggested; most believe; jungles are often just black and gold.
However they range considerably in colour...and even size.
I don't know whether I'd call it 'hypo'; however I wouldn't call them just a coastal either....
It's certainly quiet probable there is coastal influence; just judging the head pattern.
Head pattern aside; It appears to look like a very nice area 'type' jungle;
or better still; IMO an 'intermediate form' between the two....
Providing of course, their not cross locality types; not that I'm suggesting such.
Do you have a picture of both the parents at all Zac?
It's interesting; and quiet attractive none the less...
I've seen jungles; from various locals; very similar in over all pattern and colour.
One of the joy's; you never really know....
Scott; put some work into them; and see what you produce


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## malisa (Nov 11, 2008)

Hi Southside,
I have a couple of jungles like your first two pics. They were sold to me as "Honey Jungles" (@ $250ea). I have heard lots of debate as to what they are-atherton, hypo etc. i don't know (and don't care) about any of that, what I do know is that they are wonderful to handle, excellent feeders and generally very interactive, curious creatures. I wouldn't swap them for a million dollars, I am glad i have them.
Nice looking animal you have, whatever the general herp venacular fashion of the day declairs it to be.
cheers malisa


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## biggie (Nov 11, 2008)

Thats the most darwin looking jungle i have ever seen in the first pic.It looks like our male darwin same colours pattern


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## zulu (Nov 11, 2008)

*re The*

I like the look of the snake SAZ posted,has a nice cape york looking appearance to it.


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## Retic (Nov 11, 2008)

You got it, exactly my point. 

Anyway it's all cleared up now, it's a coastal Darwin Jungle that may or may not be a hypo 



Australis said:


> The definition is so massively broad it leaves itself open for unbridled usage.
> Which to me makes the term in itself nearly useless, as just about any animal
> could be labeled "hypo" as long as theres other animals darker than it?


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 11, 2008)

boa said:


> You got it, exactly my point.
> 
> Anyway it's all cleared up now, it's a coastal Darwin Jungle that may or may not be a hypo



You got it right there.
Anyone want some hatchies in a couple of years...start saving...LOL :lol:


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## Retic (Nov 11, 2008)

Yeah I'll have some but only if you can squeeze some Diamond blood into the mix as well


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 11, 2008)

boa said:


> Yeah I'll have some but only if you can squeeze some Diamond blood into the mix as well


Mate, unfortunately that's pretty well the only type of snake I don't keep..LOL


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## biggie (Nov 11, 2008)

is this some kind of joke trying to sell a darwin as a hypo jungle for few extra bucks or is that really suposed to be a jungle


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## tomcat88 (Nov 11, 2008)

biggie said:


> is this some kind of joke trying to sell a darwin as a hypo jungle for few extra bucks or is that really suposed to be a jungle


 

***! its clearly not a darwin. please step away from the reefer


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## biggie (Nov 11, 2008)

looks like this one


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## tomcat88 (Nov 11, 2008)

biggie said:


> looks like this one


 

colourwise - kind of similar
head pattern - no freaking way

clearly you lot havent read the full thread there are pics of clutchmates with standard B & G colouration, the debate is whether it is hypo - not is this a darwin or a jungle!!! LOL


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## herpkeeper (Nov 11, 2008)

doesn't look anything like that darwin that's submersed in it's water bowl trying to drown it's mites to me ! LOL


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## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 11, 2008)

or its really hot or maybe it just likes a bath.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 11, 2008)

herpkeeper said:


> doesn't look anything like that darwin that's submersed in it's water bowl trying to drown it's mites to me ! LOL


LMAO...I didn't want to post anymore on this thread, but that's pretty damn funny....:lol::lol: Sort of what I was thinking!!!


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Biggie, no way man..... just, no... totally different. Nice Darwin by the way. But nothing like that jungle.


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## Saz (Nov 11, 2008)

zulu said:


> I like the look of the snake SAZ posted,has a nice cape york looking appearance to it.



The male or the female? I thought Cape Yorks were pretty sizeable?


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 11, 2008)

I think he means markings wise, and maybe colourwise too to some extent.


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## Saz (Nov 11, 2008)

Oh I see, Lily is only 1300mm and obviously Roger Lester can confirm she is a pure Tully. The male obviously isn't fully grown yet. He looks a lot like his Dad, who was a Roger Lester Tully too.


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## Kris (Nov 11, 2008)

How?


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## Saz (Nov 11, 2008)

How what?


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## Kris (Nov 11, 2008)

How can it be proved ?


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## Saz (Nov 11, 2008)

ROFLMAO!! Because Roger Lester is a respected and experienced breeder, and if he says that she is a Tully Jungle very few people are going to argue with him.


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## Kris (Nov 11, 2008)

Oh of course.....


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 11, 2008)

Oh, you mean tully origins. Yeah, cos Roger is a trustworthy bloke.


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## Saz (Nov 11, 2008)

He kept a male and a female from the same clutch as Lilly too, I used to have pics of them but I can't find them. They look different though. Amazing how one clutch can produce totally different looking animals.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 11, 2008)

........................
http://www.rogersreptilepics.com/breeders.htm


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 12, 2008)

Saz said:


> ROFLMAO!! Because Roger Lester is a respected and experienced breeder, and if he says that she is a Tully Jungle very few people are going to argue with him.



I agree Saz, it's not just about arguing with him!
Roger doesn't BS and that's a fact!
If he says that's a Tully Jungle you can guarantee it is, or he'll tell you it's not or he's unsure....and the price will reflect that!


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## Perko (Nov 12, 2008)

Saz,
If you dont mind, how much did you pay for them?

Very nice snakes.


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## Hominid (Nov 12, 2008)

do you now if these pythons cross any intergrade lines, if so the parents will throw both jungle and coastal looking offspring depending on wich genes are strong in each individual python, for example i have 5 port mac intergrade 3 look like diamonds but 2 look very much like coastals, even the head markings resemble the dominants of either diamond or coastal bloodline, also if they were hypos they would still have jungle markings just white spots were the black should have been these snakes look completly different altogether.

by the way good threads loving the debate.


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## biggie (Nov 12, 2008)

I agree with the head markings and i know you can get unusual colours and markings, I believe its a jungle, just looks like a darwinish pattern. I just like poo stirring since someone on reptile city's behalf posted pics of Jason & Michels jungle and everyone jumped up and repedativly said it was a hybrid and it isn't, so i can't help but stir. 

Haha funny definately no mites since that was taken over a year ago when we first got him, he just loves his water bowl, a lot more then our water python who avoids his water bowl does.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 12, 2008)

biggie said:


> I agree with the head markings and i know you can get unusual colours and markings, I believe its a jungle, just looks like a darwinish pattern. I just like poo stirring since someone on reptile city's behalf posted pics of Jason & Michels jungle and everyone jumped up and repedativly said it was a hybrid and it isn't, so i can't help but stir.
> 
> Haha funny definately no mites since that was taken over a year ago when we first got him, he just loves his water bowl, a lot more then our water python who avoids his water bowl does.



Me too, got you back!!! lol

The head pattern to me definitely has the outline of a jungle and not washed out like a Coastal, thanks everyone for their input, it is a controversial topic but enlightening to say the least.


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## herpkeeper (Nov 12, 2008)

this one has the same head pattern as the one in the 1st pic, what do you guy's think ???:shock:


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 12, 2008)

herpkeeper said:


> this one has the same head pattern as the one in the 1st pic, what do you guy's think ???:shock:


I just went out to the garage and it's gone...you bastard!!! :lol::lol:

Is that one of the HV carpets Mark? Almost identical!!


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## No-two (Nov 12, 2008)

Yeah southside, he sharked you good.


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 12, 2008)

No-two said:


> Yeah southside, he sharked you good.



What twice on the same animal...:lol: 

joke Zac!!


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