# What are the pre-shedding signs to look for in a juvenile spotted python?!



## antaresia2021 (Mar 18, 2021)

I'm back, and still stressing out because my juvenile hasn't had food for 2 weeks (and isn't that too long?!?).
I know people have told me to not feed him for days or weeks longer if he's being reluctant. But he's still very young and they can only go without food for 2-4 weeks this young.

I've considered the possibility of shedding.
I know I should be looking for a duller coat and milky eyes but neither of those have been happening, and yet he has been reluctant to eat.
I need to know if there are any other signs that indicate a snake is going into shedding and is why they're not eating!


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## Herpetology (Mar 19, 2021)

antaresia2021 said:


> they can only go without food for 2-4 weeks this young


???
my mate had an carpet hatchie straight from the egg that went 2 1/2 months without a feed, offering once a fortnight

he doesn’t believe in force feeding (to each their own I suppose) and it ended up deciding one day that it’ll eat

regarding sheds, it won’t shed unless it’s growing ( or has scale issues), if it’s not eating it won’t grow


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 19, 2021)

But he was eating and then stopped. I heard that they lose appetite when shedding?
And I also ready the dipping a mouse in chicken broth will get hem to feed'


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## Herpetology (Mar 19, 2021)

They *can* lose appetite when shedding, if they want to eat they'll eat! -- you shouldnt really offer feed anyways as it can cause constrictions when they try to slough over the lump of the feed

The shed process can take 2+ weeks from The cloudy eyes stage

You're really overthinking this mate, if it doesnt want to eat it wont, offer it a mouse, if it doesnt feed wait a week, if it doesnt feed again wait another week etc untill it decides---- or wait a month and try again (maybe itll shed, then you can feed after it sheds)

You're just wasting food if you offer every 2nd day


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 19, 2021)

Yeah, I won't attempt feeding for a bit. And his eyes haven't become cloudy so i don't know if that's the ultimate determinant of shedding or if that could appear later i the process and he is, in fact, shedding.
Quick ask; I read somewhere that if he's not feeding I should check on his weight and see if it is dropping a dangerous amount over a week?


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## Herpetology (Mar 19, 2021)

Judging by pictures you've just posted in the other thread your snake is in fine condition and is absolutely nowhere near any dangerous weights, the more you stress and start meddling with weird methods, the worse off your snake will be


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 20, 2021)

I won't meddle with weird methods then. But is the chicken broth method considered weird or useful?


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## Herpetology (Mar 20, 2021)

antaresia2021 said:


> I won't meddle with weird methods then. But is the chicken broth method considered weird or useful?


not saying it does or doesnt work, but you shouldnt even bother trying it


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## Wally (Mar 21, 2021)

What the hell is the chicken broth method?

If it won't eat hold off for a week or so.


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 21, 2021)

I read somewhere that if you dip or thaw (not sure which of the two) in chicken broth the picky eaters will more likely eat because they like the smell. 
I held off for a week from his first refusal offering now and then. Is hat the same as "holding off for a week" or is there there just supposed to me 0 food involved?


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## Ramsayi (Mar 21, 2021)

antaresia2021 said:


> I'm back, and still stressing out because my juvenile hasn't had food for 2 weeks (and isn't that too long?!?)



Check the temps! 
I know you have already stated that temps are ok so what are the temps, in particular late night early morning ?


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 21, 2021)

Yep, when I was just setting everything up I woke up between 4-6am and checked and the temps were good and he was active at night. I'll check again today.
More importantly i need do know if 'waiting a week' involves presenting some food occasionally or not at all?


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## Ramsayi (Mar 21, 2021)

antaresia2021 said:


> ep, when I was just setting everything up I woke up between 4-6am and checked and the temps were good and he was active at night.


What were the temps though? Also how were you measuring them?

You seem to think that you have a picky eater when it most likely comes down to incorrect husbandry.


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## Herpetology (Mar 21, 2021)

antaresia2021 said:


> Yep, when I was just setting everything up I woke up between 4-6am and checked and the temps were good and he was active at night. I'll check again today.
> More importantly i need do know if 'waiting a week' involves presenting some food occasionally or not at all?


well you arent waiting a week or 2 if you offer it more food during that time are you?


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ramsayi said:


> What were the temps though? Also how were you measuring them?
> 
> You seem to think that you have a picky eater when it most likely comes down to incorrect husbandry.


I use a thermocouple to get readings from below the warm hide. A dual-thermometer for the atmosphere/ambient temp that is secured on either side through one of my ventilation holes, and I also have a infrared pocket thermometer to check the surface temp on the cool end mainly, but also hot end.


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## Herpetology (Mar 21, 2021)

thats great and all... but what were the temps?


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 21, 2021)

Under the warm hide is 30-33. On the warm side in general it ranges from 25/6-28. Beneath cool hide I try to keep it at 24/25 degrees but sometimes it can drop to 22 (and/or, rarely 22). The on the cool side in general i have 23/24 (sometimes 25/26).

Now that it's night he becomes very active and sticks his nose through every ventilation hole (which is worrisome so I did plug the sharper ones with paper towel so that he doesn't injure himself). But do you think that means he's either looking for food or trying to escape because he is uncomfortable in his environment?


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## Ramsayi (Mar 22, 2021)

Those are the temps over an entire 24 hour period?
Curious, if using a heat mat how many watts is it and what does the room temp get down to?


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## antaresia2021 (Mar 22, 2021)

Overnight I maintain a steady room temperature through my own room heater. I haven't measured my room temperature in the middle of the night but I have checked to make sure that the temperatures are adequate and, with a few exceptions, I've generally tried and managed to always fluctuate within that range of temperatures I gave above. 
I'm only doing this while he's still little. When they get older I know an ambient drop in temperature overnight is OK.

I've also done some research into different, slight changes to feeding that could hold an encouraging quality to them, such as braining/splitting (that I have gathered is using a pin to create a small opening in the mouses' brain as it causes a stronger, more appealing smell)? Could this be beneficial the next time I try feeding?
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*UPDATE: *Braining works a charm. He ate! Finally!
He also seemed more accepting of the food when the lights were out and I left him alone so I will probably stick to that method if he finds it more comfortable.


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## CF Constrictor (Mar 27, 2021)

I would try increasing the hot end temp to around 35 or 36 , a small increase can make a difference to their willingness to feed.


antaresia2021 said:


> Under the warm hide is 30-33. On the warm side in general it ranges from 25/6-28. Beneath cool hide I try to keep it at 24/25 degrees but sometimes it can drop to 22 (and/or, rarely 22). The on the cool side in general i have 23/24 (sometimes 25/26).
> 
> Now that it's night he becomes very active and sticks his nose through every ventilation hole (which is worrisome so I did plug the sharper ones with paper towel so that he doesn't injure himself). But do you think that means he's either looking for food or trying to escape because he is uncomfortable in his environment?



Mine are set up so they don't go over 38c even on the hottest days with no problems so as long as it stays within that range you sould be safe.


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## Barry (Apr 8, 2021)

To be totally honest here , I’ve had a hatchie childreni python not eat for 3 months out of the egg before I had to assist feed. It survived, and now eats voraciously. Don’t be so concerned about timeframes as I’m pretty sure in the wild the little guys don’t start eating straight out of the egg.It was a very healthy hatchie out of the egg and probably the only reason it survived, but it is an example of how hardy some snakes are. Don’t think 2 weeks without food is set in concrete, I don’t think many breeders out there will tell you all their hatchies started eating at 2weeks


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## antaresia2021 (Apr 25, 2021)

He's not a hatchling though. I've had him for 2 months and believe he is near 4 months old. He's still young and is now on his 3rd week without food I'm getting very very worried. I've tried almost everything. Since buying him he has been eating with 2 week intervals. But now it's the 3rd week. He's not growing and doesn't appear to be shedding, I don't know what to do!


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## CF Constrictor (Apr 25, 2021)

3 weeks isn't long even for a young python. I know it's easy to stress about it when their so small , but as long as the temps are ok , there is fresh water available and he has good places to hide , just be patient. Just a thaught, have you changed anything in his enclosure since he last ate , or is there any chance there could be something bothering him you may not be aware of, like a curious cat watching him when your asleep for example. Playing loud music near by can create vibrations through the floor that could stress him out too. Good luck.


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## antaresia2021 (Apr 25, 2021)

The only thing I have changed was adding wood-chips behind the cool hide, in the corner (taking up less than 1/10th of the space), as I thought that perhaps it would be beneficial for shedding or otherwise? (Don't know if that assumption was far-fetched or ridiculous). 

And even if, like you say, that 3 weeks without food for only a few-months-old spotted isn't something to get overly worried about; what about shedding? He hasn't shed in the two months I have had him and I don't know the date of his last shed before that. I understand that shedding is accompanied by growth and that if he hasn't been eating he's obviously not been growing, but I still don't know why he would go hungry for so long when I've been occasionally offering food in a variety of ways to see if he'd go for it.

All I know is that, while he hasn't been eating, he still moves around daily - but I can't tell if he's getting thinner (I know I should be wary of his spine becoming visible as that's indicative of a very low weight, unhealthy snake). While I take this as a good sign, there's also the fact that whenever I open the cage he tries to creep over the edge - here I'm not sure if it's because he's just curious or unhappy with his enclosure. He also moves between the cool and warm hide so I hope that means he's comfortable with the temperature.

But to be completely honest, the 3 week gap of no food (and overall eating with 2 week intervals as a young snake) is really worrying me. Sometimes, he would rest in a weird position and I have a moment of freaking out because I think he has died. I often see him drinking but he has never submerged himself in the water (as far as I'm aware), and I change the water as often as ever second day, at the latest, once every 4 days. I also want to mention the fact that he's been rubbing his face on various surfaces including the floor (is this a shedding thing or a problem, because he's been doing this since I brought him but increasingly more now).

Please help because I'm really worried that he's losing weight, becoming unhealthy, or worse, on the verge of death.


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## CF Constrictor (Apr 25, 2021)

Have you checked him for mites ?


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## antaresia2021 (Apr 25, 2021)

I can't see any black dots on him (which is what I looked for when I thought mites were the problem), there aren't any mites in the water either. Is there a better way that I should inspect him for mites because I'm only half-sure of what to look for or how?


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## CF Constrictor (Apr 25, 2021)

If he is moving around , trying to climb out of his container, i doubt hes on the verge of death. Honestly , if he is behaving normaly , drinking and dosn't appear under weight, i don't think hes in trouble yet. Rubbing their faces is how they start removing their old skin so give it a bit longer.


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## antaresia2021 (Apr 25, 2021)

But he's been rubbing his face, sticking his nose through the air-holes (for what looks like scratching) for weeks now.
I also reposted by concerns on herphelp with photos in case the photos would help. In one of them he's even trying to climb out like I said he would


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## CF Constrictor (Apr 25, 2021)

Is there any chance he,s got something stuck in his mouth and is trying to remove it, i realize it may be difficult to tell but have a close look if you can. Mites can be difficult to see on the snake , they get under the scales and drink the snakes blood , like a tiny ticks. Have a close look around the snakes eyes , in their labial heat pits on both sides of their upper and lower jaws , under the chin and around the neck. You can also take everything out of his container clean it then line the floor with plain white paper , add a water bowl and something to hide under and leave him over night . Next day , have a close look on and under the paper . If he has mites , you will see them quite easily.


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## antaresia2021 (Apr 25, 2021)

Thank you! I will definitely do that and get back to you If I do detect any mites. 
I know this next question might be a little stupid, but the paper's sharp edges won't be a danger to him will they?


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## CF Constrictor (Apr 25, 2021)

I seriously doubt it. Let us know how it goes and good luck.


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## antaresia2021 (Apr 25, 2021)

But also, wouldn't have my current substrate - paper towel - also have made the mites easy to detect because it is white? Or is paper the go-to because it's textureless?


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## CF Constrictor (Apr 25, 2021)

No , paper towel or toilet paper would work ok ,the texture may make it easier for them to hide but you should be able to see them anyway.


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## antaresia2021 (Apr 26, 2021)

Then I'll just do a thorough search of the enclosure tomorrow, and check around his eyes, chin and neck. Thanks again for all the help!


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