# Incubators



## KatshirT (Mar 18, 2010)

As of recent... cough cough... Andy Scott... cough

It has been said by our US counterparts that Hoovabator style incubators are the exception in this hobby we all share.

Personally for a number of years I have incubated everything from elapids, geckos, dragons, GTP's, RSP's and albinos olives and carpets with absulutely no issue with the Hovabator incubator and close to 100% hatch rate on eggs that make it to full term.

Further more I have used nothing less than cricket containers and vermiculite.

I am interested to see if I am truely the minority or outcast with my 'outdated' and 'archaeic' incubation style.

In closing, I missed the thread before it had been shut down but I would just like to add that the SIM style container does seem interesting however I do also recognise that if this thread proves the Hoovabator style is not as outdated as had been summised by our US cousins than perhaps testing with regards to our style of incubation should have been conducted by the Aus rep prior to sales being made and mention of the mode of incubator being required being made crystal clear. 

I do not doubt that this style could well become the way of the future but informed decisions is required in this day and age to clear all accountability from the start.

One last thing, I have known breeders (myself included) to use yabbies and small cray fish to up the level of calium in frillies in the months prior to brumation to give them the much needed lift they will need for egg development.


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## geckos_are_great (Mar 18, 2010)

interesting thread. would u say that the Hoovabator would be a good incubator to start with.???


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## bluereptile (Mar 18, 2010)

just wondering what a hoovator is?


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## Wild_Storm (Mar 18, 2010)

bluereptile said:


> just wondering what a hoovator is?


 
Thank you for asking... Please can someone explain?


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## GreggMadden (Mar 19, 2010)

Basically a hovabator is a styrofoam box with a heating element at the top... These were designed to hatch bird eggs... When you buy a Hovabator, it comes with instructions on how to hatch chicken eggs and such, not reptile eggs...

The top heat design simulates the heat given off by a female bird as she sits on top of her eggs... Reptile eggs are not incubated in this fation in the wild... They do not utilize a radient heat source to heat them during incubation...

They are cheap and easy to aquire and that is why some reptile keepers use them... They use to be pretty popular but the number of users has gone way down because the are oth better, nicer looking options out there...

With that being said, they are not bad incubators when used in conjunction with deli/cricket cups because the eggs are in a damp substrate...

Using this style incubator in conjunction with a no substrate incubation method or our SIM container does not mesh well...

The reason behind this is the air temp in the egg chamber is much warmer than the substrate temp because of the heating element placement... The heating element in these incubators needs to get very hot in orger to heat the ambient air to the proper degree because the heat needs to be pushed down in an un-natural manner.... So if you need to incubate at 85 degrees, the heating element reaches temps of 110 degrees... This causes the substrate to be cooler than the air temp in the SIM box... The cooler moist substrate will not release humdity in the air... The condensation line will stay at the substrate level...

If you leave a cold glass of water in a hot area, you will notice that the condensation will only build up on the glass where the water is and not above the water line... It is kind of the same thing going on in the SIM when used with hovabators...

In my opinion, Hovabators are pretty much old hat and the fact is, they were never ment to be used to hatch reptiles... Are they bad??? No, but they certainly are not the best choice...

I would use a home made wood box with some heat tape on the bottom before I used a Hovabator...

10 years ago, many keepers used them... These days, not so much... Many have upgraded to more suitable methods and incubator styles...

So yes, hovabator users are the minority in this hobby...

Here are the factory instructions and pics...
http://www.randallburkey.com/images/Thermal_Hova-Bator_instructions.pdf


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## cris (Mar 19, 2010)

Hovabator incubators come in a range of differant models, some have fans so should have an even temperature. In saying that i just use a fridge or polystyrene foam esky, a thermostat and usually a fan.

If using water as an incubation medium its best to have a plastic lid, suitable containers can be bought from woolies for around $10. It is also more important to have even heating to avoid condesation or drying of the eggs. Although uneven heating can also kill eggs with other incubation methods espcially if heated from underneath as this causes condensation on the lid.


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## itbites (Mar 19, 2010)

No comment Gregg....

And yes hovabators are commonly used I know a lot of people that use this method for incubation.. 
& I have also tested out the foam esky trick as cris mentioned & found that worked very nicely as well...

Very interesting info about the yabbies/crays KatshirT will have to take that into consideration next time andyscott & myself endevour to breed the frill necks


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## GreggMadden (Mar 19, 2010)

Hey Chris,
Yes, the hovabator does come in a few different models but they all have the top heating element and a super outdated waffer style thermostat... The heating element still gets too hot compared to the rest of the incubator still heating unevenly... Like I said, this is fine if the eggs are directly set in the substrate because this is where the humidity lays and where the eggs get their moisture... In the SIM, they take what they need from the air, not what is being forced on them by being in damp substrates...

Also, condensation is good, water droplets are not... With the SIM container, the condensation does not build up enough to cause water droplets to form when its medium is set up properly...

Ok, so let me re-phrase...

The Hovabator is not as commonly used here in the States as it once was... The Hovabator is not even close to being as good as other incubator styles...

It is commonly known that top heated incubators are not as good as bottom heated, side/back heated or circulated air incubators for the incubation of reptile eggs...

itbites,
Obviously you have no comment to my post because what I wrote is proven science and not speculation or opinion... We did not build an entire company based on reptile egg incubation because we do not know what we are talking about or dont know what we are doing...

Seriously, do not be all butt hurt and troll my posts because your frillies did not hatch...


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## Ramsayi (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm with you KatshirT although I would love to know how you did olive eggs in chinese containers.

Incubating eggs isn't rocket science and there is definately no need to spend silly amounts of money on wizz bang incubators and fancy overpriced containers.If these things were truly needed then the hobby wouldn't be where it is today as not so long ago there wasn't anything specifically designed with reptiles in mind and improvisation was the name of the game.

To my mind the best way to go is to keep it simple,no need to over complicate the process.


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## GreggMadden (Mar 19, 2010)

Ramsayi said:


> Incubating eggs isn't rocket science and there is definately no need to spend silly amounts of money on wizz bang incubators and fancy overpriced containers.If these things were truly needed then the hobby wouldn't be where it is today as not so long ago there wasn't anything specifically designed with reptiles in mind and improvisation was the name of the game.


 
While this might have been true back then, now there are better options that increase hatch rates and produce stronger offspring... As this hobby grows and evolves, information is rolling in that was not available years ago...

And while, as you state, egg incubation is not rocket science, is true, we are finding out that it is very much a real science in and of itself...

It was not too long ago when heating water in a glass aquarium with with a fish tank heater and floating eggs in a container on top of the water was a widely accepted method of incubating reptile eggs... Sure, reptiles hatched with that method as well but would you offer that as a sound method of incubating??? I think not...

Anyway, the folks who are getting away from the hovabator and using better methods are the ones who will see the benefit in change... 

Things that fail to change, fail to evolve, and eventually, fail to thrive...


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 19, 2010)

This hobby will thrive and eggs will hatch just fine without having to spend stupid amounts of money on "Reptile brand" tubs and incubators.
With incubators just make your own, its so easy, and for tubs if you insist on using the water method like in the SIM tubs then go and buy the Target equivalent and save enough change for a case of throwdowns,,


Thanks Gex


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## Ramsayi (Mar 19, 2010)

GreggMadden said:


> While this might have been true back then, now there are better options that increase hatch rates and produce stronger offspring... As this hobby grows and evolves, information is rolling in that was not available years ago...
> 
> And while, as you state, egg incubation is not rocket science, is true, we are finding out that it is very much a real science in and of itself...
> 
> ...



I was merely responding to the OP that I am in agreeance with him but since you responded to my post here goes.

I don't buy the idea that something as basic as a plastic container would make one iota of difference with regard to improved hatch rates or produce stronger offspring.Weak embryos will be weak hatchlings (provided they hatch) no matter what you use provided things are set up correctly just about any container will do the job,conversely strong embryos will equal strong hatchlings .

Claims keep being made that the use of these tubs improves hatch rates/stronger offspring.Have you had any independent evidence to back up these claims? If these tubs are as good as you say then sell me on them or at least acknowledge that just about any tub can achieve the same results.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

So ramsayi, how many of these tubs have you seen and held in person? I also know for a fact that you were one of he first to contact me about them. The only reason you did not buy was because of size. Sure, use your cheap tubs for incubation.

It was the same situation when the microclimate thermostats came into Australia about 3 or 4 years ago. I imported about 10 of them 6 years ago and tried to sell some to other reptile keepers. I got some day/night dimming stats in. Most people told me that $110 was too much for these overpriced pieces of rubbish, they would rather stay with their back of the cage mounted, inaccurate, wire exposed imit stats. They also don't have to spend a hundred bucks on them? Then Tim started importing microclimate, then herpshop started bringing in habistat. Now when people ask to reccomend a brand of thermostat these two names pop up. 

The fact is that there are always people that can say something is overpriced without seeing it or touching it. And there are also people that believe that cheaper is better! I have been using air mail to get these tubs in. That is why they are priced the way they are. Its like buying stock in when the Aussie dollar was worthless against the us dollar, do you sell your stock for what you paid for it? Or do you sell it for less than what you paid for it now that the US dollar is stronger? 

Once these things come in on ship it will be a totally different ball game. Along with the new choices of tub material and sizing.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 19, 2010)

There is a huge difference between imit and habistat/microclimate stats the later two are a lot more precise and provide better options dimming etc for different needs.A container however is precisely that a container! I would rather use the analogy of globes.Would a $15 reptile branded spot be any better or worse for providing heat than a $2 spot purchased at a supermarket?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes, the ones like zoo med and exo terra lasts much longer as their filaments inside are thicker.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

It always comes back to the tubs. It does not help to try and explain on a forum how sturdy and durable they are. You can ask Fay about that Ramsayi. They will be at the expo, so have a good look at them and then tell me that they are the same as any other tub. You can just about substitue anything in life with something cheaper, does that mean you get exactly what you pay for with the more expensive product? I dont think so.


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## KatshirT (Mar 19, 2010)

I am very disheartened that my post and specific question has been hijacked by the two very people I was not looking for info from as these 2 are clearly not using Hoovabator style incubators.

I was very specific in wanting to see if other breeders like myself use Hoovabator style incubators in Australia! 

I HAVE NO INTEREST IN WHAT MAY OR NOT BE USED IN THE US, I DON'T GIVE A FLYING HOOT WHAT YOUR PERSONAL THOUGHTS ARE GREGG. IN MY YEARS I HAVE NEVER HAD AN ISSUE WITH MY CURRENT STYLE AND DO NOT INTEND ON CHANGING BECAUSE THE US DO IT A CERTAIN WAY!

The simple fact is animals in the US, mainly certain species have a very low life expectancies with years and years of inter/cross/line breeding. This is a certainty and I am not going to get into a DEBATE, If you stand by your product I commend you but now leave my questions to be answered by the people I want to hear from.

In my time I have come accross litle variations in incubation styles, either hoovabator style or heat cord inside some sort ot box/fridge/foamesky and from time to time I have seen enclosures being used.

Fact reptile eggs are buried under ground, heated from what is surrounding them which is ultimately heated from above and that being the SUN.

Hoovabator style are not unnatural and fact is they are every bit as good at hatching anything in anything else is. 

I have to make a point that it seems many people seem to defend there own products to the bitter end and if opinions cannot be taken and informed questions asked and answered than close up shop. People are far more educated these days and so will ask far more questions about topics as information is literally at your finger tips.

I do not doubt the SIM product is good but as to what seems to work here is Ausralia with Australian animals seems very different if you were going to compare the reptiles kept in the US and with what is being bred. I am sure the vast majority of the reptiles being kept in the US is 10,000's of kilometers away from where they are naturally found, make no mistake by comparing your exotic animals to the indeginous ones we keep, breed and love in Australia.

Finally, olives in the square containers that are very deep and large I believe from memory they are 1litre sized work for 1-2 eggs.


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## Asharee133 (Mar 19, 2010)

KatshirT said:


> Finally, olives in the square containers that are very deep and large I believe from memory they are 1litre sized work for 1-2 eggs.


thats ALOT of chinese you have to eat  invite me over next time you need some more containers :lol:


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## KatshirT (Mar 19, 2010)

Asharee133 said:


> thats ALOT of chinese you have to eat  invite me over next time you need some more containers :lol:


 

I generally buy the containers without the food, much better for the waist line and the wallet...lol


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## JAS101 (Mar 19, 2010)

very interesting , i will be buying a Hoovabator style incubator later this year .


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## chondrogreen (Mar 19, 2010)

So much technology in incubating containers, and still no domed lids to aid in condensation returning to the medium.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 19, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> So much technology in incubating containers, and still no domed lids to aid in condensation returning to the medium.


I've noticed some people use those lettuce storage containers, I bet that's the reason why.

Thanks Gex


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

chondrogreen said:


> So much technology in incubating containers, and still no domed lids to aid in condensation returning to the medium.


 
Makes them harder to ship with domed lids. We do have more options this year including domed lid. 

I have actually hatched Carpet pythons and bearded dragons in a hovabator as that is actually the incubator you are talking about. No doudt they work. I dont think you have any proof that US stock is weaker and I would like to see documented cases of this. Most python eggs also sit on top of each other with only the bottom layer touching the substrate surface. Lizard eggs are also laid in circular shaped holes and only the outside ones touch the soil. They absorb water from the humid air. 

So to answer your question, yes I have hatched eggs in hovabators. Many in fact.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

KatshirT: "regards to our style of incubation should have been conducted by the Aus rep prior to sales being made and mention of the mode of incubator being required being made crystal clear."

You involved us in the thread, that why we responded. 

Hovabators were the quick solution when there was nothing on the market to specifically hatch reptile eggs. Better products arrived when we gained better insight into hatching reptile eggs. I have never pushed people to use this product. Its everybodys own choice; if you think hovabators are the way to go then fine. And if $2 tubs work for you, then great. But dont rate these tubs if you have never even seen or held one.


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## dtulip10 (Mar 19, 2010)

i have been using a hovabator for the last few years and have had some success. personally i feel they work ok but just limited on room inside. this season i will be shopping for a old fridge a thermo and heat cord. for the price of a hovabator though i feel you would be silly at not looking into building your own.

cheers Dayle


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 19, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Lizard eggs are also laid in circular shaped holes and only the outside ones touch the soil. They absorb water from the humid air.


This statement is not true when it comes to lizard species that only lay small clutches such as geckos that only lay 1 or 2 eggs at a time.

Thanks Gex


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

Of course there are exeptions. There are also geckos that lay their eggs on leaves and rocks?


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## JasonL (Mar 19, 2010)

I really don't think incubating reptile eggs is rocket science, if you find something that works, then stick with it. I incubate a few eggs each year just leaving them on a shelf in a warmish room, funny enough, it they usually ake about 2 weeks longer but tend to be much larger hatchies than the "incubated" ones. Next year I will test it with snakes and see how they do. I have friends who use Hovabators, and they seem as fine as any other method.


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## ShaunMorelia (Mar 19, 2010)

JasonL said:


> I really don't think incubating reptile eggs is rocket science, if you find something that works, then stick with it. I incubate a few eggs each year just leaving them on a shelf in a warmish room, funny enough, it they usually ake about 2 weeks longer but tend to be much larger hatchies than the "incubated" ones. Next year I will test it with snakes and see how they do. I have friends who use Hovabators, and they seem as fine as any other method.


Do you use a humidifier in that room or do you find there is enough mositure in the air?
Cheers


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## KatshirT (Mar 19, 2010)

Once again presumptions will always lead down the road to failure... 

I infact have held 5 of these SIM containers in my little hands and have aided in setting up 2 of them and watched them during the test phase over 3 weeks, I am familiar ith what they look like, how well lids fit and am more than knowledgable enought to understand how varying species of reptiles in Australia dispose of there eggs for incubation purposes.

How ever you, CarpetPythons, have yourself mentions on a few occasions that you yourself have hatched Bearded dragon eggs in the SIM I merely referred to and will now identify that Bearded dragon eggs are laid by the females upto 45cm from the surface of the soil and are then completely submerged beneath soil for 70+ days being heated by the soil surrounding them which is ultimately being heated by the SUN.. glorious SUN...

Now the Hoovabator style incubator has been adopted by ReptaPets and is being sold by them as a reptile incubator... Are we now to note that you are saying ReptaPets is selling an inferior product that is nothing more than a "CHEAP FIX"?? and further more not appropriate for reptiles at all?? as I belive that would be considered SLANDER I do not expect an answer.

Documentated cases would be near impossible to source as most reptiles in the US apart from you Pied Ball python standard upmarket reptiles all others are dispensable to the average joe as $5 is far from a huge investment and when one goes a wry you simply purchase another... spent much time over there to see for yourself??

So my question directed to you CarpetPythons is, did you look into the SIM style simply because you lost so many reptiles at full term that were unable to pip?? and simply put it down to a poor incubator without taking into account the possibility that JasonL brought up of low calcium and other nutrient levels in the mother/s of those poor unfotunate little reps that lost their lives due to a lack of product from the US and SIM containers?

Do I sound abrupt?? sure do... many many many keepers around Australia use and have done so for upto 43 years the hoovabator style incubator setup. These same keepers evolved much of the basic knowledge that any primary school student knows about reptiles these days and have written and continue to write articles, books and journals on all fasets of reptile keeping. Further more these same keepers created much of the species attributes we see today e.g. albinos, hypo, reduced pattern and striped etc etc etc...

Are they all cheap people?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

*"Now the Hoovabator style incubator has been adopted by ReptaPets and is being sold by them as a reptile incubator... Are we now to note that you are saying ReptaPets is selling an inferior product that is nothing more than a "CHEAP FIX"?? and further more not appropriate for reptiles at all?? as I belive that would be considered SLANDER I do not expect an answer."*

I would like you to show me where i have said this? I in fact was one of the people who helped them out with the design and was the first person to test their prototype incubator? It was damaged during the shipping from china. I hatched 2 clutches of beardies in their prototype and then multiple clutches of carpet pythons in 2 of the first to arrive in Australia. Whose eggs and photos do you think is on the cover of the box for the incubator? 

I only sold those quantities to 2 people in vic so i am pretty sure I know who you are.

*"Documentated cases would be near impossible to source as most reptiles in the US apart from you Pied Ball python standard upmarket reptiles all others are dispensable to the average joe as $5 is far from a huge investment and when one goes a wry you simply purchase another... spent much time over there to see for yourself??"*

Some more assumptions!

*"So my question directed to you CarpetPythons is, did you look into the SIM style simply because you lost so many reptiles at full term that were unable to pip?? and simply put it down to a poor incubator "*

You make me laugh! 

I can guarantee you that high end animals do not get hatched in Hovabators.

I would love to know how you bred Rough scaled pythons over the years when you are in Victoria? They only came on the list in October last year? Are you just telling porky pies about all the things you have bred in Hoovabators?


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## maanz641 (Mar 19, 2010)

ding ding round two


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## Kristy_07 (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand why it is such a problem that some people want to continue to use older, but tried and tested methods, whilst others want to move on to newer methods that are popular overseas. I understand why the differences in the two methods would be discussed on a reptile forum, but I don't understand the need for people to argue about it, making some fairly abrupt and personal comments along the way, in two separate threads. Isn't it simply horses for courses?


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## Kristy_07 (Mar 19, 2010)

Maanz - much more succinct. Thanks


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## ihaveherps (Mar 19, 2010)

I would have thought a superior product would hold up as well, if not better than technologically challenged home jobs.

For anyone to dig at any form of incubator is lunacy. If the concept of the design is completely understood, and applied correctly, then there is really little fault to be found in even the most archaic of incubation systems. To even suggest that achieving stable temps and humidity in a water heated incubator is unlikely, foolish at best.... large heat sinks are an advantage in achieving stable temperatures, even more of a plus in cases of power failure, and you would have to be insane to argue they couldnt create efficient humidity....

I suppose the point I am trying to convey, is that if one tub is to be better than another, then it has to perform better. I fail to see how, by any logic, that any tried and tested method, that uses the most basic of tupperware, can become redundant and outdated because a newer tupperware model cant perform in the same manner, if not better..... And as I understand the thread, thats the topic at hand.


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## Southside Morelia (Mar 19, 2010)

I only use the hovabator......but i'm old school and have not bred in mass. I plan to change one day when the volume makes me....or i'll have a heap of little foam boxes over the herp room. :lol: What's the problem anyways, I have has 100% success rate to now with them!


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## cris (Mar 19, 2010)

ihaveherps said:


> I suppose the point I am trying to convey, is that if one tub is to be better than another, then it has to perform better. I fail to see how, by any logic, that any tried and tested method, that uses the most basic of tupperware, can become redundant and outdated because a newer tupperware model cant perform in the same manner, if not better..... And as I understand the thread, thats the topic at hand.



Glass is a better conductor of heat than plastic so will be less suitable in an incubator that isnt completely stable. Plasitc is much better for this reason IMO. I have played around with lots of dodgy cheap inucbation methods, in an envoronment with a stable temperature you can get accuracy within +/- 0.1C with an on off thermostat that varies by 2-3 degrees, by using suitable insulation, heat sinks and common(aka rare) sense. Its much easier just to use a dimming thermostat and a fan though.


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## KatshirT (Mar 19, 2010)

Ok so I see.... Carpet pythons seems you like to jump on the band wagon of every new item that comes on the market...

Oh and also, "Hoovabators were the quick solution when there was nothing on the market to specifically hatch reptile eggs" so as there model works on the same principal.. make of it what you will... btw that was a straightquote there carpet pythons.

I more thing... Yes I do reside in Victoria but have been interstate and overseas for some parts of my life so I have been able to experience many many things and reptile keeping of both Australian, Indonesian, Chinese, South American and American reptiles just to name a few. This reptile world is far smaller than some give credit to, and you really have no idea who the person your talking to really is and what experience they may hold.

As very few have owned up to using the Hoovabator or similar styled incubators this thread is becoming useless to it's intended use so Mods do close it.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

I have never said the hovabators were inferior. They were as good as my new home made incubators. Space became an issue as there is just so much you can put in them. They have see through plastic panels in the top that allows you to view into the incubator without opening it. These viewing holes make it impossible to keep a stable temperature, especially on a hot 46C day in Melbourne. The best air conditioners struggle to keep a room at 35C. 

I was lucky to meet someone from Kingloc refrigeration that had some working but decomissioned commercial fridges. I exchanged 2 of these fridges for two boxes of Crownies! How can you beat that. They work great and can handle the fluctuating temperatures of Melbourne really well. 

I believe the hovabators would work even better if you lived in places with a more stable climate or colder parts of the world.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

*Ok so I see.... Carpet pythons seems you like to jump on the band wagon of every new item that comes on the market...*

And what is wrong with helping out a dear, close friend of mine? I was not paid. I did it because they dont keep and breed reptiles and i wanted to try it out.

*Oh and also, "Hoovabators were the quick solution when there was nothing on the market to specifically hatch reptile eggs" so as there model works on the same principal.. make of it what you will... btw that was a straightquote there carpet pythons.*
Their unit is actually very different to the Hoovabators as you keep calling them. 

You dont need water in its base for instance, you also have a dimming stat with a digital display panel that controls the temperature very well unless its warmer outside the incubator, they also have a hygrometer attached to the temperature probe that gets placed inside the incubation container that gives a very accurate reading. 

The truth is that hovabators were made to incubate chicken eggs! Its on the instructions that Gregg posted. We are not just making it up. Reptile keepers started to use them all over the world as it was cheap and looked better than a tub drifting in a fistank with a aquarium heater in it. Of course they have been refined over the years and still function exactly the same way after all these many years. 

If it has been around for this long then i agree that its might be around forever. We all know that we can keep snakes in fishtanks, but do we?


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## SouthSydney (Mar 19, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I can guarantee you that high end animals do not get hatched in Hovabators.
> 
> I would love to know how you bred Rough scaled pythons over the years when you are in Victoria? They only came on the list in October last year? Are you just telling porky pies about all the things you have bred in Hoovabators?


 
That is a bit of a big call to make isn't it? Unless you know every single person who has ever bred "high end" reptiles.. How can you really guarantee that as a fact? 

Are you also suggesting that people who don't breed "high end" animals are inferior (in methods used and such? because they are lower class and cant afford fancy hi-tech state-of-the-art new fandangled systems like yours?)? Some people honestly dont like the look etc of "high end reptiles"... And prefer to keep things they like that are monetarily classed as "worthless" for lack of a better word as personal taste differs a good example is elapids (being "cheap" etc yet people still love them enough to keep and breed them every year)... To even hint at something like that is ludacris.

You do realise that a normal Darwin carpet, is the exact same as an albino carpet species-wise yes? Or are you talking GTP? Albino olives (which again, are the same thing species-wise as normal albinos) and other super-cali-exxy herps...?

I also don't see the relevance of bringing up Rough Scaled Pythons and questioning his integrity/legality etc... As as far as I have seen, he didnt mention anything about Roughies did he? Its almost like a personal attack against him...I could have missed that though (where he mentioned roughies)... Forgive me. 

:|:|:|


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 19, 2010)

He did actually mention breeding RSP's in his first post


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## SouthSydney (Mar 19, 2010)

You seem to be correct geckoman... I've read so much in this thread a minor detail like that was forgotten 

Even still he did say "over the years" people can live in many different places "over the years" . Specific example, a chick from work, shipped her whole family to NSW, lasted 6months tops and hated it, and was back again... I've known people who move every 5yrs, every 10yrs etc etc. Due to work commitments or anything... So its seriously not a great idea to jump to conclusions and suggest someone may have/be conducting illegal activities...


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## FAY (Mar 19, 2010)

Anyone can use whatever they want to incubate eggs in.

I wanted to try the water method and certainly don't have time to stuff around with things so it suited us to buy them with the grid already in place and the dividers...I don't understand what all the fuss is about.........


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## Zoltag (Mar 19, 2010)

I've never used a Hovabator (man, even typing that name feels wrong ), but the incubator I have used is, I believe in the same style - An old fridge with a heat lamp up top, some shelves, a couple of fans and a microclimate thermostat.

Had nothing but 100% success out of it.

If the method you use works and you're happy with the amount of effort you have to put in for your method to work, who cares what method it is? 

Seriously, people need to chill out.


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## Kristy_07 (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm with you, Fay. And I honestly don't understand why subject of "which incubator is best?" has turned so gnarky over two threads. It's a shame.


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## Bushfire (Mar 19, 2010)

I use the SIM method regularly but not the containers, Im too much of a cheap skate. Having using the method I will never go back to using a substrate again. Personally I hate suffering around with substrates and mixing rates. Ive never used a hoovabator, but cant see why anyone would they are expensive and too small for anyone who has more than one clutch. Before I used my current method (old bar fridge, heat cord, and thermostat) I was using an eskey with globes wired at the bottom and a row of dowels mid way up to sit containers on. I would probably give the SIM containers a go if they were say $10 - $15 borderlineish at $20.

In my view the substrate less method the SIM containers use is the way of the future much better than using a substrate mix.


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## spongebob (Mar 19, 2010)

Esky, heat source, fan, tub, incubation medium, eggs, knowledge = happy herper

Angst, conflict, commercial concerns= unhappy forum

My two penny's worth

Think I'll stick with people who keep live bearers. They seem more sane to me!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

They are on the way bushfire. I also never wanted to battle over polycarbonate containers. I don't know how you can deduct that I think standard herps are inferior sham? We all keep standard animals, even I have favourite standard babies that I will never give away. As a breeder of high end stuff, I know that most high end breeders would not risk clutches of value, by using an incubator that might have a temperature spike! That's just common sense, especially green pythons, or albino olives. I do realise albino darwins are just melanin lacking carpet pythons. I have found that they are slightly different as hatchlings. 

The sim will be at the wild expo, so come around and have a look. We might change a few minds about the product and you might just grab yourself a bargain.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

Good post spongebob. Had a good laugh.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 19, 2010)

So is SIM a brand name or is that how you describe the over water incubation?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

The container is called S.I.M. Manufacturer is Squamata Concepts. And it's not just for incubating over water. It is name after the way the eggs are suspended in the air. The grid that they sit on does not touch any medium. I never thought this product would be so controversial.


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## Stevo2 (Mar 19, 2010)

I never realised that there were classes of Herp keepers - those who keep "high end species" (whatever that term is meant to mean....) and those that keep regular species. 

Can someone please point me to a an authoritive list as to which is which? I'd hate to be keeping something outside my means or social status without knowing it...


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## chondrogreen (Mar 19, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I never thought this product would be so controversial.


 
I think the controversy stems from the international supplier and the Aus retailer talking up the product like it is the bees knees. It is like a passionate Coastal keeper trying to tell a passionate MD keeper that his species is better, when infact they are both pretty ordinary lol.

Personally I would prefer a GTP (Computer controlled heat/humidity incubator with domed lid containers and a flux capacitor) :lol:


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## Ramsayi (Mar 19, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> The container is called S.I.M. Manufacturer is Squamata Concepts. And it's not just for incubating over water. It is name after the way the eggs are suspended in the air. The grid that they sit on does not touch any medium. I never thought this product would be so controversial.



Perhaps it's because of the spurious claims always being made with regard to their benefits.Things such as better hatch rates,stronger babies and quicker incubation times.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

Have you tried them chondrogreen and ramsayi? I don't understand how somebody can have an opinion on something that they don't have any intention on trying out? And as I have said before ramsayi, you were one of the first to enquire about the product. 

Stevo: There is no class system for snakeys. Some Breeders just breed animals with clutches worth tens of thousands of dollars, that is what I mean by high end breeders. These keepers can not take chances with faulty equipment. This also does not mean that their methods have to be state of the art. Even people with no experience can do it.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

So how would you know if the claims are spurious if you have never tried these tubs ramsayi? Nothing can be said on a forum without it getting twisted into some insult to somebody!


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 19, 2010)

edit


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## Stevo2 (Mar 19, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Have you tried them chondrogreen and ramsayi? I don't understand how somebody can have an opinion on something that they don't have any intention on trying out? And as I have said before ramsayi, you were one of the first to enquire about the product.
> 
> Stevo: There is no class system for snakeys. Some Breeders just breed animals with clutches worth tens of thousands of dollars, that is what I mean by high end breeders. These keepers can not take chances with faulty equipment. This also does not mean that their methods have to be state of the art. Even people with no experience can do it.


 
Thanks for the explanation. Once upon a time it used to be about the love for the hobby, not the almighty $$. I like it as a hobby, lol - much less cut-throat and narky. If a breeding method works, regardless of the technology involved or the purported value of the clutch within, then I say stick with it. Not to say that the mouse-trap cant be improved, of course 
I used to allow my geckos to lay in their enclosure and left the the eggs to incubate and hatch right where they were laid.. Yep - 100% success rate over a couple of years... Not that I'm recommending to do that.. :shock:


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

*Thanks for the explanation. Once upon a time it used to be about the love for the hobby, not the almighty $$. I like it as a hobby, lol - much less cut-throat and narky. If a breeding method works, regardless of the technology involved or the purported value of the clutch within, then I say stick with it. Not to say that the mouse-trap cant be improved, of course * 

I agree, but its nice if you can pay back all that you have spent on your animals over a year period and get on top of your credit card after Christmas as well! The human race would not have been where it is if it was not for risk takers! Some like to try new things, some dont, thats just how it is!


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## cris (Mar 19, 2010)

FAY said:


> Anyone can use whatever they want to incubate eggs in.
> 
> I wanted to try the water method and certainly don't have time to stuff around with things so it suited us to buy them with the grid already in place and the dividers...I don't understand what all the fuss is about.........



A flat glass lid is not a good idea, better products are available from the supermarket shelf.


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## SouthSydney (Mar 19, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> The container is called S.I.M. It is name after the way the eggs are suspended in the air.


 
So if you dont mind me asking, what do the letters S.I.M. stand for? I'm guessing Suspended In... But cant figure out the M... I'd get it if it were "S.I.A. aka Suspended In Air" Or is it more a "S.I.M. short for Simulation" type thing? I've been ever curious about it for a while now...

Wait... Or is it "Suspended In Mid-air"?


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 19, 2010)

BadNewsSham said:


> So if you dont mind me asking, what do the letters S.I.M. stand for? I'm guessing Suspended In... But cant figure out the M... I'd get it if it were &quot;S.I.A. aka Suspended In Air&quot; Or is it more a &quot;S.I.M. short for Simulation&quot; type thing? I've been ever curious about it for a while now...
> 
> Wait... Or is it &quot;Suspended In Mid-air&quot;?



Super Incubation Man


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## Klaery (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't really have an opinion here and think an old fridge and heating cord works fine. But when things such as better hatch rates,stronger babies and quicker incubation times are claimed I can understand some people wanting evidence... I keep seeing things like people haven't tried them so they cant comment, but that doesn't make the claims any more true. Science doesn't work like that. 

It seems like a really good product and hopefully one day i will get to try it out for myself.


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## cris (Mar 19, 2010)

BadNewsSham said:


> So if you dont mind me asking, what do the letters S.I.M. stand for? I'm guessing Suspended In... But cant figure out the M... I'd get it if it were "S.I.A. aka Suspended In Air" Or is it more a "S.I.M. short for Simulation" type thing? I've been ever curious about it for a while now...
> 
> Wait... Or is it "Suspended In Mid-air"?



They are basically trying to cash in on a basic incubation method that can easilty be achieved without buying an expensive 'reptile product'. I have used cling wrap on an old plastic tub with good success.


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## SouthSydney (Mar 19, 2010)

Geckoman said:


> Super Incubation Man


 
LMFAO Geckoman :lol:



cris said:


> They are basically trying to cash in on a basic incubation method that can easilty be achieved without buying an expensive 'reptile product'. I have used cling wrap on an old plastic tub with good success.


 
Ahhh I see, I get it now... "Suspended Incubation Method"? lol.  I think my idea was better..."S.I.A." *** :lol: Sounds less "computerised" and more believeable haha... jks :lol:

Kinda like "reptile basking globes" for $15-35 as compared to Phillips 100w spot bulb 2pk for a max of $5.... etc etc.... Stealthy...

** Patent pending...*


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes Cris, we are offering people a solution to a problem. The problem being that not everybody is confident like yourself when incubating reptile eggs with clingwrap. The lid is not made from glass by the way. This little tub offers customers everything in one hit. You can find out what sim stands for by going to our site carpetpythons.com.au.


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## cris (Mar 19, 2010)

BadNewsSham said:


> Kinda like "reptile basking globes" for $15-35 as compared to Phillips 100w spot bulb 2pk for a max of $5.... etc etc.... Stealthy...
> 
> ** Patent pending...*


 
Never heard of a reptile globe? is that something like the earth before mammals? or a marketing gimmick? :lol:


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 20, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Yes Cris, we are offering people a solution to a problem. The problem being that not everybody is confident like yourself when incubating reptile eggs with clingwrap. The lid is not made from glass by the way. This little tub offers customers everything in one hit. You can find out what sim stands for by going to our site carpetpythons.com.au.



Why cant you just tell us what SIM stands for?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 20, 2010)

And fortunately for us we are in the process of getting a cheaper version made that will make cutting and sticking bits of grate in a plastic tub redundant. It will be priced that well that you would be stupid to make your own home made tubs when you can get it for less from us.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 20, 2010)

It stands for suspension incubation method? I thought you answered it yourself?


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## cris (Mar 20, 2010)

Just checked out your website, it would appear your are breeding illegally imported jags, is that correct? if so do they need an expensive reptile an incubation conatiner to incubate successfully? Or are they just the same deleterious morph as seen in many overseas (and probably many illegal Aussie) collections?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 20, 2010)

Full credit was given for the photos.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 20, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> And fortunately for us we are in the process of getting a cheaper version made that will make cutting and sticking bits of grate in a plastic tub redundant. It will be priced that well that you would be stupid to make your own home made tubs when you can get it for less from us.



So they will be less than $10? So when these tubs come in you will beat the price of a homemade equivalent? Thanks Gex


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 20, 2010)

I set up one in a hovabator to see if there is any weight to these claims that they are less effective in them. I was sloppy to say the least, i fit the lid like an ill fitting lid would fit. I shoved probes under the lid, not one but three. It has been running for half an hour and so far,























please not that the lid is not sealed fully and these are the readings already? Something is not adding up? By the way, there is a hundred ml of water in the base.


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## Sel (Mar 20, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Have you tried them chondrogreen and ramsayi? I don't understand how somebody can have an opinion on something that they don't have any intention on trying out? And as I have said before ramsayi, you were one of the first to enquire about the product.



It has nothing to do with whether they have tried them or not. Even if they had, you would still be pushing them, talking them up and posting a million threads, with pictures about how they work EVEN WITH THE LIDS NOT ON PROPERLY. 
If they are so great why do you feel the need to have to prove it so many times? Let people make up their own minds...and if they dont like them, then who cares? 
This product is controversial, because you made it controversial.


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## Jay84 (Mar 20, 2010)

:shock:


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 20, 2010)

*If they are so great why do you feel the need to have to prove it so many times? Let people make up their own minds...and if they dont like them, then who cares?
This product is controversial, because you made it controversial.* 

I am not the one starting the threads that slag them. This is the type of incubator in question, that started all the negative feedback. Yoy should read all the posts and follow the threads to understand why i posted these pictures.


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## Sel (Mar 20, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> *If they are so great why do you feel the need to have to prove it so many times? Let people make up their own minds...and if they dont like them, then who cares? Get over it
> This product is controversial, because you made it controversial.*
> 
> I am not the one starting the threads that slag them. This is the type of incubator in question, that started all the negative feedback. Yoy should read all the posts and follow the threads to understand why i posted these pictures.



I read the whole thread. Every post.. and im not talking about this thread, but the many other threads i have seen you made about this product.


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## FAY (Mar 20, 2010)

I am closing this thread.

Everyone can agree to disagree.


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