# Banning Snakes in the USA - Next Australia?



## Doc (Dec 10, 2009)

I just received the following email from Dave Barker in the USA. I think the implications are self explanatory ...

" I've never before sent an email out to everyone in my contacts list, but never before has there been such need. 

A proposed law, identified as "S 373", as currently written will end possession, transport, and commerce for all pythons and boas in the USA. This law will immediately put Tracy and I out of business and destroy all that we have accomplished working with pythons and boas in our careers. The bill will be voted on by the committee tomorrow, so this is very last minute and urgent.

Today is the last day we can get emails or calls in to the committee, the media, and the White House, and request that they stop, or at least amend this unfounded and insane law, written and supported by the HSUS, a rabid animal-rights group.

Below is a message from USARK, the national organization that represents and supports reptile keepers and their rights. We are asking for you to read the message and then do any of the three actions listed. At least send off the two emails (one to the White House and one to the media), very easy and quick to do if you click on the two links provided.

Look at the list of senators on the committee. If any are from your state, then please call him/her and ask that this bill not be passed. It will confiscate property rights from Americans, destroy small businesses, destroy one of the most successful conservation projects ever accomplished by private citizens, and cause millions of animals to be destroyed.

Tracy and I are in disbelief that this has come to pass. We are asking you to please help with our cause. 

Thank you,

Dave Barker"

Scary stuff. We urgently need to form a representative group here in Australia to protect our rights as reptile keepers and remedy many of the rediculous inconsistencies that already exist between our various States in Australia.


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## Kurto (Dec 10, 2009)

Whoa! That's terrible news.....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 10, 2009)

Are you making yourself available for this representative group Simon?


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## Cheyne_Jones (Dec 10, 2009)

Thats rough, totally agree that we probably need a representative group of interested parties in our country to prevent stuff like this happening here...


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## pythons73 (Dec 10, 2009)

That is such ashame,as Dave-Tracy have been in this hobby for 30+ years and has breed thousands of snakes,it will hit them really hard,plus the thousands of others in the hobby.So did this just happen overnight so to speak,or did they no about this months ago,i hope the end decision turns in favour for them...MARK


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## dtulip10 (Dec 10, 2009)

U.S. Department of the Interior - Salazar Pushes for Ban on Importation of all Nine Large Constrictor Snake Species

have a look at this


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 10, 2009)

This move from the american government has been known of for more than a year. The difference between the business in America and the hobby in Australia is that everything, or any legal animals for that matter is licensed. Totally different situations. This law concerns Pythons and Boas, and their escape risk to native animals. I highly doubt that we would have an issue like this ever. Unless exotic pythons escape in their hundreds. The biggest issue that I can see in a couple of years would be the escape of jags into suburban Brisbane, can you imagine the effect it would have on the local carpet python population. Wild pythons with nervous system issues! Not good.


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## moosenoose (Dec 10, 2009)

Probably wouldn't happen here in Oz for the fact the government departments, especially the ones here in Victoria, make a small killing from us! Plus, the banning the keeping of snakes here would also push whatever blackmarket trade even "further" underground and promote an ever increasing influx of exotics into the country! And why wouldn't it...if they become illegal, then who the hell cares what you're keeping! It's like robbing a bank these days, you'll get the same time as murder so you might as well take a few out as you leave - silly stuff! Banning things only make them more desirable! 

Surely this "ban" over in the States has happened for a reason? There is always a story in the press about wild exotic populations or 18ft long escaped pets. Something about beds and lying in them??


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 10, 2009)

Exactly Moosenoose! Agreed.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 10, 2009)

Arent there already organisations in Australia that would like to see reptile keeping banned?
Would this give them enough ammo to get the ball rolling.?
I like Nicole and Lukes posts as they are more optimistic. 
Nah, it could never happen here, surely.


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## Sel (Dec 10, 2009)

Wasnt there a small child killed not long ago by a Boa? Could that have something to do with it ..maybe ?
Its very sad, why all of a sudden have they decided to ban them?


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## RemoverAccount (Dec 10, 2009)

".373 and recommending that the legislation be amended to ban the importation and trade of all nine large constrictor snake species considered invasive or potentially invasive in the United States, including the Burmese python. 
“The threat posed by the Burmese python and other large constrictor snakes is evident. The Burmese python population estimate is now in the thousands—putting at risk a variety of threatened and endangered species and harming the Everglades ecosystem,” Secretary Salazar wrote, emphasizing that the Burmese python and other constrictors threaten the future of America’s great outdoors. “The Department is working with many partners to address the significant challenges posed by the invasive Burmese python and other large constrictor snakes.”
The Burmese python, a large exotic snake, is well-established in the Everglades. Everglades National Park, Big Cypress National Preserve and the Water Conservation Areas represent the core areas of the python infestation. 
Among the world’s most effective predators, pythons are having negative impacts on native species in the Everglades ecosystem, and can potentially threaten other areas. Because of the serious threat posed by pythons, the National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service), and the U.S. Geological Survey, along with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, the South Florida Water Management District, and many other partners are actively engaged in a large variety of potential python control efforts."

Seems to be targeting invasive, exotic species and for good reason...


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 10, 2009)

Yes, heard about something similar in Canada earlier this year. In the states, it is obviously a gross overreaction to the situation in the Everglades. Completely the wrong way to go. A ban now will not fix the problem in Florida. They do need to have a look at the Australian system. I firmly believe a licensing system coupled with a bit of mandatory education would go a long way to levelling out their exotics problem. Granted, we do not have the same exotics problem here (at least not officially due to the laws regarding exotics) as the states, I can see a point in severely restricting at least the very large constrictor species. May come down to having to cut off a foot to save the leg for the American Herp community. 

Not sure what is happening with the national herp association proposed by John Weigel at the S&T expo. Something like that, having the combined voices of the herp community across the country united, is the only way we we stand a chance of keeping something like this from happening here in Australia.


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## CodeRed (Dec 10, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> .... The biggest issue that I can see in a couple of years would be the escape of jags into suburban Brisbane, can you imagine the effect it would have on the local carpet python population. Wild pythons with nervous system issues! Not good.



hahahaha, but so true. At least whilst jags are valuable people will take great care not to let them escape, but what about all those fugly sibs?


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## mysnakesau (Dec 10, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> ......... This law concerns Pythons and Boas, and their escape risk to native animals. I highly doubt that we would have an issue like this ever. .......



I kinda thought that too. Everybody will have their own speculation and rumours but Florida is under serious threat from the exotic burmese python. If they have similar pest infestations in other areas of the States, and no doubt there would be, I can understand them wanting to take action. IMO, though, and I am not politically minded but banning the keeping of pythons and boa's won't solve their problems. Getting tougher with their licensing and perhaps banning further breeding and import of exotics into the States might work better. But of course there will always be ppl who will go underground to continue breeding and selling exotics. So perhaps the authorities should work with their reptile enthusiasts to encourage them to help protect their native species rather than printing new laws on paper and slapping fines on ppl. Perhaps zoos and universities could propose special circumstances or offer a reward for ppl to hand over their exotic collections.


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## JasonL (Dec 10, 2009)

Gee, just imagine the gas bill if they had to euth them all!


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## mysnakesau (Dec 10, 2009)

Would be a sad case Jason  All those animals have to be euthanised? That's awful. They could export them back to their native land - like they do with ppl.


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## JasonL (Dec 10, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> Would be a sad case Jason  All those animals have to be euthanised? That's awful. They could export them back to their native land - like they do with ppl.



98% of them would be very non natural variations.... deep down I would rather it be illegal to keep snakes, and only those who dare flaunt with the law keep them, like in the good old days when only those who were really keen on herps kept them and everything was swapped, not sold.


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## Doc (Dec 10, 2009)

The way I see it, the invasion of exotic species into local ecosystems is a real problem and has to be addresed. However, there are groups that are dedicated to stopping the keeping of "wildlife" in captivity. Problems like the python invasion of the Everglades in the USA create opportunities for these groups to further their cause (rather than a scientific based rational response). One strategy of these groups is to get jobs in Government to manipulate the system for their own objectives.

Some have suggested that the situation is Australia is completely different and it won't happen here. Having spent over a decade on Government advisory committees and Boards, I strongly disagree. The move is on in Australia and the pressure is on Governments from within. I believe it is only a matter of time until our rights to enjoy reptiles are seriously eroded. A couple of months ago I flew to Sydney and met with a number of well established herpers because of this threat that we were all seeing.

I strongly believe there needs to be a national representative group to support reptile keepers and it needs to happen sooner than later. The problem is that we are so tribal in our structure and culture - we tend to form into groups that support each other and criticise others. The national group truly needs to be representative and to have the confidence of the whole hobby. I believe it should consist of a representative from each State with an elected Chairperson and enough funding to have an Executive Officer and legal support. 

I don't think the funding will be difficult, the difficulty will be is overcoming the tribalism and forming a cohesive group with broad majority support.

However, I do think it is important and do think the urgency is growing. For my part, I am getting old and will be winding down my herp interests in the next couple of years - for the new enthusiasts to our wonderful hobby, I think you are the ones that will feel the brunt of the global trends in over regulation fuelled by extremist groups that are already effecting the pet landscape in Australia.


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## mysnakesau (Dec 10, 2009)

Ppl from my local herp group have talked about a National Association that was suppose to be already being discussed. Haven't heard anything recently but I might see if I can find out what's happening and if anymore has been done to get it moving.

Simon that is really sad to have to think of. But I certainly would help with such an organisation to keep our hobbies safe. I am not politically minded, my own business failed and I am considered quite a blonde but if its another vote in our favour, like Homer says, I'LL DO IT.


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## JasonL (Dec 10, 2009)

Do you think that this national group should be controlling over it's members in any way, or just used as a political lever?


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## RemoverAccount (Dec 10, 2009)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> it is obviously a gross overreaction to the situation in the Everglades. I firmly believe a licensing system coupled with a bit of mandatory education would go a long way to levelling out their exotics problem. .


 
reaction or over-reaction. clearly self regulation hasnt worked! As was said - you make your bed...


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## mysnakesau (Dec 10, 2009)

Maybe both, Jason. Political lever - absolutely. I would expect the likes of such a committee would be those who have been in the game for a long time and knowledgeable with their contact and advice on that side of things. Controlling? Well, if ppl in such a position are going to be fighting the laws so we can keep our hobbies I think they deserve some credit for their effort and we can show appreciation by biding by what they think is best. Department Envirnoment Climate Change are the controllers. A national group could be first with news of proposed changes and requesting support from its members to help make an affect.


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## Daz_McC (Dec 10, 2009)

Too late. Exotic snakes are already banned in Australia. It looks like the US is trying to play catch up. Given the amount of money involved in the exotic reptile trade over there I don't think moves to restrict it will be particularly successful. I had to laugh at the conservation argument. As if any of these snakes are ever going to be involved in a species reintroduction project. Get real.

As for Oz, where has all this paranoia come from? Where are these animal rights bogey men trying to take reptiles away from keepers. Where are the government agencies preventing the keeping of native reptiles. Its a load of garabage and people who try to run this line just end up looking silly.


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## cris (Dec 10, 2009)

ssssnakeman said:


> Arent there already organisations in Australia that would like to see reptile keeping banned?
> Would this give them enough ammo to get the ball rolling.?
> I like Nicole and Lukes posts as they are more optimistic.
> Nah, it could never happen here, surely.



There are animal liberationists in Australia and they have way too much power for their 'special' level of intellegence. A few examples of the stuff they have in qld include banning duck hunting completely, its illegal to feed shrimp to a turtle without humanely euthanaising them and pig hunting with dogs is also illegal(not enforced as far as i know).


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## JasonL (Dec 10, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> Maybe both, Jason. Political lever - absolutely. I would expect the likes of such a committee would be those who have been in the game for a long time and knowledgeable with their contact and advice on that side of things. Controlling? Well, if ppl in such a position are going to be fighting the laws so we can keep our hobbies I think they deserve some credit for their effort and we can show appreciation by biding by what they think is best. Department Envirnoment Climate Change are the controllers. A national group could be first with news of proposed changes and requesting support from its members to help make an affect.



So would this group support the current Jag situation? or the breeding of hybrids? or keeping poached animals?Would it's members be checked that they weren't doing the wrong thing, or would it just be a "numbers club" with a rubber sign in contract? Getting a group together that would agree on such matter would be near impossible and gaining membership would be very difficult if people had to abide to such laws, yet a lobby group would have little political pull if half it's members were doing the wrong thing...


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## Ozzie Python (Dec 10, 2009)

whatever happened to the NRKA, i thought this group was being formed for this exact reason. 
Or was it just a club for the elite breeders to get together for a poker night?


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## chilli (Dec 10, 2009)

thanks for the info, barra

the NRKA being established would come in handy atm


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 10, 2009)

Doc said:


> The way I see it, the invasion of exotic species into local ecosystems is a real problem and has to be addresed. However, there are groups that are dedicated to stopping the keeping of "wildlife" in captivity. Problems like the python invasion of the Everglades in the USA create opportunities for these groups to further their cause (rather than a scientific based rational response). One strategy of these groups is to get jobs in Government to manipulate the system for their own objectives.
> 
> Exactly right. Spurious science at best used again to further whichever nutjob organisation's real agenda. I sincerely hope the U.S. herp community can band together on this short notice to have their voices heard.
> 
> ...


 


JasonL said:


> So would this group support the current Jag situation? or the breeding of hybrids? or keeping poached animals?Would it's members be checked that they weren't doing the wrong thing, or would it just be a "numbers club" with a rubber sign in contract? Getting a group together that would agree on such matter would be near impossible and gaining membership would be very difficult if people had to abide to such laws, yet a lobby group would have little political pull if half it's members were doing the wrong thing...


 
Mate, I enjoyed our banter the other day, but this is the kind of thing that will kill our chances of putting something like this together. Touching on your points:

Jag situation. They are here, like it or not. Ferreting jags out of private collections would be exponentially more difficult than it would be to get the Burms out of the everglades. What would you propose that we as a community can do about the "situation". Myself, the same amnesty offered on chondros, etc. No point trying to defuse a bomb once it's gone off.

Breeding or keeping hybrids. See above.

Long story short, we will not all agree on every point in the minutae of the herp hobby. Such a national organisation would not be a police force, nor a place for bickering over locale specific carpet morphs. We need one simply to fight for our right to keep our hobby alive. 

I am like most, not sure what tack to take. Ironically, over the last several days, I have been trying to chase up info on the status of a national organisation. Time to get off the fence I guess, and put some real effort in.


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## CodeRed (Dec 10, 2009)

JasonL said:


> So would this group support the current Jag situation? or the breeding of hybrids? or keeping poached animals?Would it's members be checked that they weren't doing the wrong thing, or would it just be a "numbers club" with a rubber sign in contract? Getting a group together that would agree on such matter would be near impossible and gaining membership would be very difficult if people had to abide to such laws, yet a lobby group would have little political pull if half it's members were doing the wrong thing...



good point Jason. Members of this representative group would have to be squeaky clean to get the support of the general herp community and be taken seriously by the authorities. That rules quite a few prominant herpers out.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 10, 2009)

One step you can do to stop this is educate. Remind folks that when they donate to groups like PETA, ALF, etc., they are in fact donating to lobbyist groups which achieves their end through pushing legislative action. Very, very little funding goes to the actual helping of any animals such as the ones they put in their advertising. US _and _international animal "rights" groups have an agenda. For many, that agenda is to end the captive ownership and/ or propagation of _ALL_ animals.


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## beatlloydy (Dec 10, 2009)

I have heard of a prominent politician in NSW at least who supports the banning of keeping animals of any description...First name is synonomous with a plant the irish use for good luck and the surname is the opposite of less. (can that be slander if cryptically placed)?


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## Doc (Dec 10, 2009)

Yes it will be difficult for a representative group to reach consensus. I will avoid responding to some of the comments about cross breeding etc here because these topics just degrade into highly emotional personal views ... I often feel so tempted to counter the emotion with fact here on APS but experience shows that this just creates more emotion and even less fact. The only way a national group could operate is with sound logic based argument and scientific fact. My experinece through the intiial attempts to start such a group is that there are some very distinguished academics that would be delighted to support such a group and combat the emotion and misinformation.

And for those of you that think this is all paranoia and rubbish all I can say that I suspect you are responding from a small information base and limited experience in dealing with Government environmental and conservation groups across Australia. The threat is real.


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## Col J (Dec 10, 2009)

I have to agree with the Doc on this one. It would be a great opportunity for the animal libs to keep the ball rolling & follow the U.S. push to ban python keeping here in Oz..

Let's use the keeping of firearms as an example. We all thought it was our right to keep & use firearms & nobody would listen to the anti-gun people, so we laughed it off & sat on our hands. Next thing you know we were looking at total confiscation, even for those who had used firearms all their life & even those like myself who used them to make a living. It was a big shake-up & was only headed off by forming a national body with a voice in parliament & lobbying in political circles.

I am no politician. I have never been a member of a herp society, as I don't like 'clubs'. I have had my pythons confiscated prior to licencing, which was not pleasant. I wasn't even aware of John Weigel attempting to start a national herp society, but I would jump at the offer of membership if it was going to be along the lines of what happened with sport shooting.

Let's see it happen & form a national society. All the small clubs would maintain their entity & carry on as they have done & be affiliated with the national society. 

Any takers,

Col J.

JW & Doc can run for Parliament!! Haha!


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## ozianimals (Dec 10, 2009)

they are trying to make America like Australia so I don't thinkwe will introduce their laws as that will allow us to import snakes. They are trying to ban the importation of the 9 large python groups.
We already are not allowed to import reptiles .
All good from my view. Don't keep any burmese pythons.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 10, 2009)

Emotion and ego will definitely serve to derail the process of protecting our rights to keep reptiles. What people have to understand is that this discussion is not about who's catching what or who's importing this or that or even how do we piss and moan and discredit so and so because I don't like what they're doing. This is about preserving our right to keep our animals in captivity. Period. This aplies to every single member or non-member of this forum, and the Australian Herpetological community at large. 

One thing is for certain, society and it's governmental bodies and systems, respect education and status. Alienating individuals with whom you disagree with their methods and practices WILL screw us all (including you!) out of the right to keep reptiles in captivity. Like it or not, any national reptile lobby will need all the doctors, lawyers, and academics it can get, with any interest at all in reptile keeping, to come to the table and help the herp community in Australia fight for it's rights.

I know that as a tradesman, my stepping up to argue for our rights would go unheard in government. I am fine with this. I will happily add my voice to the chorus though, to ensure that I, you, and so and so with the bloody red-tailed boas, can keep on keeping reptiles in our homes.


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## Retic (Dec 10, 2009)

They are not trying to make America like Australia at all, this is about banning the keeping and import of large Boids and it is nothing to do with introducing their laws. 



ozianimals said:


> they are trying to make America like Australia so I don't thinkwe will introduce their laws as that will allow us to import snakes. They are trying to ban the importation of the 9 large python groups.
> We already are not allowed to import reptiles .
> All good from my view. Don't keep any burmese pythons.


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2009)

yes I agree with Doc that we need a national organisation to look after our rights. Its something Jamie Stuart wrote about in some recent articles in Scales & Tails. The push by NSW DECC with their cage and keeping standards etc was from what I heard pushed to some extent by people with affiliations with this PETA group and other animal lib organisations. how true this is Im not certain but its something I wouldn't doubt and something that we should take seriously.

I really think we need to put aside petty differences and join a national group that represents all reptile keepers, enthusiasts, etc to make sure our rights are protected on a national scale against people that would attempt to erode them.


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## Wild~Touch (Dec 10, 2009)

Aaron
You are already "doing your bit" by being actively involved with The Herpetological Society of Queensland Inc. for which I thank you.

We need more reptile society/clubs to walk the talk = lobby power

And remember Rspca is watching and waiting for a hole in our armour

Cheers
Sandee


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## JasonL (Dec 10, 2009)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Mate, I enjoyed our banter the other day, but this is the kind of thing that will kill our chances of putting something like this together. QUOTE]
> 
> I am not concerned about which way the hobby is heading, I was just asking whether or not the governing group would have a criteria for it's members, or just a numbers group, happy to take anyone....
> ....as it wouldn't be good to be represented by someone who gets done by the authorities and is splashed over the media, that would give the opposing sides a bigger gun to shoot us with.


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## marvelfreak (Dec 10, 2009)

[/ATTA


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## krefft (Dec 10, 2009)

There is a real need for a national body in my opinion. To think that we can just keep flying under the radar of various animal rights groups is naive in the extreme.

*Rather than trying to figure out all the reasons why a national body won't work, why not put as much thought into working out how it can work.*


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## carpetmuncher (Dec 10, 2009)

JasonL said:


> 98% of them would be very non natural variations.... deep down I would rather it be illegal to keep snakes, and only those who dare flaunt with the law keep them, like in the good old days when only those who were really keen on herps kept them and everything was swapped, not sold.


 
yeah, and nobody ever bred any, they just took annual trips to make buck from the one's that survived. and everybody kept them in a re-used cupboard with a globe in it. and the snakes were lucky to live a year so they knew who would need a replacement. yeah, bring back the old days.


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## Chimera (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree that there needs to be a national body but I think we as a community need to change our approach to the regulators. The very real fact is we do not have it that bad in Australia (maybe if you do if you live in WA  ). I think we need to provide positive feedback to the regulators where relevant rather than just blasting them for any issue that comes up. A national organisation will need to be comprised of respected herpers who can taken n a leadership role and work with the regulators rather than just getting in their face. Having attended the founding meeting for the NRKA I feel that this group has the foundation to meet that criteria.

I think if we stop acting as though it is our right to keep native species however we see fit and start projecting the very real truth that we feel privileged to be able to experience these native animals in our own home the animal rights argument appears irrelevant. The fact that we are only allowed to keep native species is (and will continue to be) in our favour and I feel that the exotics argument should be dropped completely.

We need to appear as a law abiding commercial or hobby group, not a bunch of self serving arrogant rednecks (I am not indicting anyone here). What was recently achieved in NSW is a fine example of what is possible nation wide and I hope this will become the archetype for future changes to reptile keeping regulations.

Damien


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2009)

great post Damien


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## snakelover (Dec 10, 2009)

I somehow goofed in previous post - it didn't find its way onto the thread. This one will be quite a bit shorter, sorry about that.

I agree with the sentiments of Simon, as well as Damien and others. There's no need yet for hysteria, but we do need a responsible and responsive national representative body to ensure that government agencies have ready access to industry/hobby input. Should radical animal welfare sentiments gain increased traction with governments and wildlife agencies in the future, we will be there to have our collective voice heard in a timely manner. 

Regards,
John W


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## moosenoose (Dec 10, 2009)

The difference between guns and reptiles in this country was one was a national tragedy, the latter hasn't been an issue as yet and I'd be amazed if it ever was! I think there are plenty more alluring topics on the agendas of animal rights activists than a relatively quiet group of people keeping reptiles. How are these activists going with live-exports??? Anything changed there yet??

Clearly this US senate bill is a knee-jerk reaction resultant of decades of abuse at the hands of both breeders and hobbyists alike in regards to giant “exotic” python species. The smartest thing this country (Australia) has ever done was keep these animals outlawed, and by doing so HAS and WILL protect the everyday amateur herpetologist’s interests. 

Laws aren’t made for no reason. They come about as a result of something that has happened or could potentially happen. We’re not about to get Salties living in the Yarra River :lol: Venomous snake licensing (to me) seems a little too relaxed – especially here in Victoria. A potential problem is having someone lose a taipan, or some other “State-exotic” elapid in backyard suburbia and having an infant/child die as a result of a bite; having a problem identifying the species and/or not having the correct anti-venom at hand to deal with it! There’s certainly one major problem I can see, and if it results in a ban or a limitation placed on keepers because someone was sloppy with the charge a certain species – then so be it!

The ones who are squealing and getting into frenzy about all this here are ones with an invested interest. I have none. It’s a hobby for me plain and simple. Personally I think the panicking on this issue is unwarranted and all its achieving is producing a lot of hot air. I’ll be happy to admit I’m wrong should it swing the other way :lol: ….but this particular ban in the States has been LONG overdue.


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## zulu (Dec 10, 2009)

*re Banning*

You need to have a national committee that is made up and voted for by the members of existing herpetological societies,created from the ground up,that way it can be said that it is a democratic system.
Getting a letter sent out to the various societys around australia so that they can discuss it first with their members first would be the way to go,allot of reptile keepers out there dont get on the internet and a system to create a national body needs to take advantage of the branches that we already have much as the banking sector does.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 10, 2009)

I'm not a frequent visitor or contributor to APS, but Joy K alerted me to this thread, and its significance to the keepng hobby here.

The problem with the keeping community here in Australia is that it is relatively new (not much more than 10-12 years established) and as a result, is made up of many naive 'youngsters' who have no idea how difficult it has been to get where we are today, state by state.

Many of the bureaucrats that prevented keeping for the past 30 years remain in positions of influence today, and have bent to change only because of well targeted political pressure brought to bear by tireless old herpers who spent years cutting through the crap and achieving the changes which occurred a decade or so ago. To suggest that these bureucrats and ancient scientists don't want to go back to the good old days where anyone who kept a reptile was in breach of the law and easily prosecuted, is dangerous indeed. They do.

Animal rights groups are active in this country, and are extremely skilled at political lobbying, usually well under the radar so you don't know what's coming until it's on your doorstep. Don't fool yourself that it can't happen here, because it can and it will unless keepers as a group act collectively, with responsibility, to demonstrate that keeping and breeding reptiles is a legitimate activity, and one in which we are entitiled to participate.

The NRKA has been incorporated, and I will get details up here as soon as I can. It was to be formally launched at the Scales & Tails bash in October, but I was unable to be there. All those involved at the outset have been very busy this past 2-3 months, but I will ensure we have an opportunity to get together soon after Xmas so we can get the show on the road.

It is, as respondents have pointed out, difficult to get consensus from such a diverse group as the reptile keeping community in this country, and this has been very evident in a couple of discussions on another site. However, my feeling about it is that if you have nothing positive to contribute, don't catch the train. You are not even welcome on the platform. There are as many dismantlers as assemblers out there in reptile land... the former just waste our time and damage our image.

This has nothing to do with the US wanting to adopt our system, it is an opportunistic response by animal rights people, who have found and worked on sympathetic political ears in the US, and facilitated by very foolish, irresponsible keepers who have provided the ammunition they need.

If the complacent herp keeping community here doesn't lift its game, we can look forward to very similar pressures in Australia.

Jamie.


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## Ozzie Python (Dec 10, 2009)

Well, there you go, DEC is viewing this thread as i type. I would love to see what they have to say on this topic.

Look forward to seeing how the NRKA comes along Jamie, maybe this would be another hot topic for further discussion


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## Pythons Rule (Dec 10, 2009)

oh ok well there ya go I was just about to post all my beliefs but with whats just been said its quite scarry and I hope to dear gog it never does happen to us I quite like being able to keep these stunning animals.

best of luck with you guys over there.


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## cris (Dec 10, 2009)

Bredlislave said:


> And remember Rspca is watching and waiting for a hole in our armour



Feeding snakes cute intellegent animals that have been created and killed so the snake can be kept in a small plastic box wouldnt be too popular if they took the time to look at it.

Animal liberationists typically have a distorted view of nature and think every single animal should be happy, unrestrained, safe and live forever without having any negative impact on other life and they also typical think killing animals is cruel unless done by injection. These sort of ideals are obviously in direct conflict with reptile keeping.


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## moosenoose (Dec 10, 2009)

.......Tofu eating folk who still use parkbark for toiletpaper


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## montay (Dec 10, 2009)

I have read several of these posts, and the question that a prospective US ban raises for me is: on what grounds?
Clearly the media jungle grapevine from the US suggests that the grounds may be due to irresponsible and poorly legislated reptile ownership. Responsible ownership includes proper controls of breeding and selling of reptiles, training and education for owners, and a full registration scheme to enable the tracking of reptiles and their owners. I would suggest that in Australia, we are partially there.
I don’t want to enter the heated debate about state by state legislation, but there clearly needs to be education for all potential reptile owners so they are fully aware of their responsibility as a reptile owner before they become one, and continuing education and training to ensure that owners understand such things as the importance of quarantine, safety and responsible breeding practices.
It would be naïve of me to suggest that legislation alone will protect reptile owners in this country, but there is one thing I do agree with, and that is Simon’s sentiments that this should not be an emotional issue – if this should become a political issue, only objectivity and evidence based argument will save the hobby.
Vicki


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 10, 2009)

Yes indeed, don't make the mistake of thinking that this is primarily about reptiles and keepers - it's about a philosophy, often loopy, usually distorted, and rarely rational. Zealots are dangerous, whatever they seek to achieve.

J.


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## longqi (Dec 10, 2009)

If herpers finally decide that reporting the sale of exotics is a good thing then we have no worries in Australia [look at GPTs as a classic example with lots of PNG strains available]
The only potential problem is with breeding weakened strains of reptiles such as albinos and them getting loose as they could quickly weaken wild strains and could need culling
Exotics may look pretty
But they can cost a lot more than money


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## Wild~Touch (Dec 10, 2009)

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party

I remember this saying from when I was a kid and here we go - let's put it to good use.

The Herpetological Society of Queensland Inc. will be in it for the long haul

Cheers
Sandee


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## MrSpike (Dec 10, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> hahahaha, but so true. At least whilst jags are valuable people will take great care not to let them escape, but what about all those fugly sibs?



Goanna food mate


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The NRKA has been incorporated, and I will get details up here as soon as I can. Jamie.



great stuff Jamie.. let us all know about membership etc please mate.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 10, 2009)

Is the NRKA a non-profit organisation? Who are the representatives of the NRKA and wich states do they represent?


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Is the NRKA a non-profit organisation? Who are the representatives of the NRKA and wich states do they represent?



Jamie (pythoninfinite) would be the best person to answer these questions nicole, but I would assume its a non profit organisation and being National would represent all australian states and territories. cheers


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 10, 2009)

Thanks Colin. I would also consider that to be the most appropriate way to tackle this issue. I still cant imagine that it would happen here, we just dont have man killer pythons. If this association is indeed looking after the interests of the reptile keepers community then I will back it 100%. I would just like to know who has been elected to this advisory commitee.


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Thanks Colin. I would also consider that to be the most appropriate way to tackle this issue. I still cant imagine that it would happen here, we just dont have man killer pythons. If this association is indeed looking after the interests of the reptile keepers community then I will back it 100%. I would just like to know who has been elected to this advisory commitee.



I dont anticipate anything similar to the USA with the "killer pythons" but the hobby has its opponents in organisations like PETA etc that may lobby against the hobby at some stage. To avoid problems in the future it would help if reptiles keepers were organised into a co-hesive national group before any thing like this ever happens.. and theres other issues that a national body could address such as maybe uniform state legislation for reptiles instead of the system we have now etc.. It can only be in our best interest I think to have a national body and voice especially since the hobby is expanding at an increasing rate in these past few years. 

I'd like to know whose on the committe etc myself and Im sure Jamie will fill us in soon.


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## Doc (Dec 10, 2009)

It gives me great heart to come back from working and check the progress of this thread - to see the thinking of the majority of you, the understanding by many of the true threat we are under and the support for a national body. Jamie we can't make it happen too quickly.

Recently I had a conversation with a senior bureaucrat that told me of the increasing pressure to stop the keeping of all wildlife and how a member of one of the animal liberationist groups was boasting that within 2-4 years the practice will be stopped. 

Here is the latest comment I received from the USA ...

"This has been an stunning turn of events. Sorry I couldn't give you more time to react and for the forum members to react, but this was purposely orchestrated to be sudden so that we could not properly react. The lack of integrity on the part of the legislators has been astounding. 

I'll do my best to keep you posted."

Having had many years working with Governments across a range of industries I can confirm that this is a common strategy in Australia. This is not paranoia as many of you know (especially the old-timers like me). We need to organise ourselves and overcome our differences for the good of the hobby as a whole. And the sooner the better ...


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## tooninoz (Dec 10, 2009)

I had a brief chat with Jamie about this some months back and was left feeling that this is crucial for _not just the hobby_, but for herpetology itself. An organisation that isn't seen purely as one thats fighting for our 'right' to keep/breed reptiles, but to lobby Govt on issues related. It also shows some of the animal rights groups (and they aren't all two-headed monsters) that we are serious.

An informed and determined collective will always defeat reactionary groups that have a single agenda.

I know of a couple of people that are a part of this and there's a wealth of experience with both reptiles and working in advisory positions etc. If we all can get behind it, put egos/differences aside and work cohesively, there's no reason this won't work.


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## Daz_McC (Dec 10, 2009)

Some of the posts on this thread really are the worst kind of baseless scare-mongering. I may not have the insider knowledge that some of the people here have but I can see that reptile keeping is exploding in popularity. The number of expos is a good example of that. If extreme animal liberationist have taken over government and are hell bent on wiping out the hobby they are doing a REALLY bad job of it.

Now I think that a national reptile keepers group is a great idea. It will help to spead up the mainstreamification (my own word) of the hobby and hopefully lobby for some badly needed consistency between the states. But if people are involved because they are worried about some phantom threat from animal libers my advice is to have a warm cup of milo and get over yourself.


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## Kurto (Dec 10, 2009)

Daz_McC said:


> Some of the posts on this thread really are the worst kind of baseless scare-mongering. I may not have the insider knowledge that some of the people here have but I can see that reptile keeping is exploding in popularity. The number of expos is a good example of that. If extreme animal liberationist have taken over government and are hell bent on wiping out the hobby they are doing a REALLY bad job of it.
> 
> Now I think that a national reptile keepers group is a great idea. It will help to spead up the mainstreamification (my own word) of the hobby and hopefully lobby for some badly needed consistency between the states. But if people are involved because they are worried about some phantom threat from animal libers my advice is to have a warm cup of milo and get over yourself.




I think you need to re-read what has been written through out this thread. Some of the contributors do actually have a good basis to make such comments..... The threat is real..............


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## zulu (Dec 10, 2009)

*re Banning*

Very good discussion,look forward to getting more imformation on the NRKA from jamie,ile probably more than likely be the first president so ide like a look at the house and salary package etc :lol:


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 10, 2009)

I don't really see that a direct link can be drawn from this situation to our own. On one hand, you're talking about a government which has banned keeping several larger species of exotics due to issues caused by these species on the native environment. While on the other, saying that this proves the Australian government will now take this as an excuse to introduce legisltion banning the keeping of any native species. These are two completely different problems. 

I do agree completely that representatives of the EPA often display an unecessarily negative view of herp keeping - or keeping any native species - and that this is something we should be concerned about. In the past I have been told, quite bluntly, that if it were up to the EPA and other such agencies, our hobby would be banned; that we should all just be grateful we're allowed to do it at all; and that if we have a problem with any aspect of legislation or the interpretation of legislation by government agenices we should just suck it in or they'll take our toys away. Mind blowing when you consider they'll happily allow us to keep a variety of introduced animals which have caused a pethora of problems for native wildlife. I would think it would be better to ban the keeping of introduced species and allow only native wildlife to be kept. But that's just my opinion, obviously.

With regards to the new American law, I do think it's something that should have happened years ago. While it's clearly a case of shutting the barn door after horses have bolted, there are still a few horses left in that barn. It might not be soon enough to stem the tide of dramas caused by the introduction of these exotic species, but better to at least try and address the problems in some way than just throw collective hands in the air and complain that it's all too hard.

Doc, I'm sorry for your friend, that he won't be able to keep or make money from the animals he loves. That being said, I can't see how his problem will directly affect us here.

Wow, that was a bit of a long one wasn't it? :lol:

A


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## NickM (Dec 11, 2009)

If you guys in OZ think this cant or wont happen to you , you are seriously naive.

We in the US failed to get organized BEFORE this happened and as a result it may well be over for us. If you value your rights the time to get organized is now, before there is a crisis.

I heard all the same stupid statements from people here before this, nobody though the govt, would ever pass something like this, most had the mistaken view that their govt actually thought these things through properly, wich clearly it does not.

Get organized now and you have a chance to stop these sorts of things before they get very far. If you procrastinate like we did you may end up int he same place we are today.

Nick


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

marvelfreak said:


> [/ATTA


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

NickM said:


> If you guys in OZ think this cant or wont happen to you , you are seriously naive.
> 
> We in the US failed to get organized BEFORE this happened and as a result it may well be over for us. If you value your rights the time to get organized is now, before there is a crisis.
> 
> ...



Hey, Nick, I think they have thought about it....they have just decided that their special interest groups are more important than the American people.


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## [email protected] (Dec 11, 2009)

wont happen


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## [email protected] (Dec 11, 2009)

There are more issues with cane toad and feral cats etc that needs to be sorted out before they could implement the banning of keeping Australian native reptiles, unless we are making any harsh impact on our native wild life from having reptiles in captivity i don't think they would enforce it. in most states we already have restrictions on what we can keep and for good reasons.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> wont happen





[email protected] said:


> There are more issues with cane toad and feral cats etc that needs to be sorted out before they could implement the banning of keeping Australian native reptiles, unless we are making any harsh impact on our native wild life from having reptiles in captivity i don't think they would enforce it. in most states we already have restrictions on what we can keep and for good reasons.



Hahahahahaha!!!!!!! You crack me up!!!!!!! This site really needs a "censored" smilie, or something to more accurately convey exactly what it is that I'm feeling right now.

Guess what we have problems with here in the US. Cane toads and feral cats! Guess what are far more widespread than snakes. Cane toads and feral cats! Guess what this bill does NOT affect. CANE TOADS AND FERAL CATS!!!!

Your thought processes are dangerous for the Australian reptile community. Ask me how I know. Never mind....I'll tell you. People over here have been saying for years that it "*wont happen*". If you think this is about the impact on the environment, you are sadly mistaken....it has very little to do with the actual problem. It is centered around powerful lobbying groups that consist of eco-terrorists funded by good hearted folks who think they are donating money to help poor, cute, neglected cats and dogs. They think wrong!


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 11, 2009)

NickM said:


> If you guys in OZ think this cant or wont happen to you , you are seriously naive.
> 
> We in the US failed to get organized BEFORE this happened and as a result it may well be over for us. If you value your rights the time to get organized is now, before there is a crisis.
> 
> ...


 
I think naive is being generous Nick but it will suit in this instance. This discussion has nothing to do with scare-mongering, the semantics of rights versus priveledge, or the formation of a political party whose platform is reptile keeping. It does illustrate though, that it can happen. Knee jerk reactions are the norm in in the world of politics, just look at the situation recently in Queensland. The former premier jumped on an idiotic idea to put a dam in an area completely unsuitable to take one (from an environmental standpoint). A decision based on a hunch and a dollop of questionable science to satisfy a small section of voters. 

All it would take in Australia is for one person to come up short when dealing with a cranky scrubbie and you could almost guarantee all of our snake keeping days would be numbered. What arguement would they use to justify it? "Just look at the states, when they have killer pythons, they ban them!" Not to mention using the already low opinion of the general public has of snakes to further that agenda.

Again, a national organisation would go a long way to protecting our rights (priveldege if it makes you feel better to use that word) to have this hobby. Being pro-active, getting prepared for the future, this is just common sense. Anyone who would argue against a national group that could speak on our behalf...why? 

One thing I have found to be a fascinating occurence is, argueing vehemently on this site, then meeting your nemesis (used for illustrative purposes) in person. This has happened to me, ended up with a new pal. Joining or forming a herp club in your area, chatting with other such groups, this seems to me to be the way to do your bit in your part of the world. It's a great way to meet people with similar interests, hang out, and get off the bloody computer. 

It's great to hear that the NRKA has gotten it's ball rolling, I look forward to to hearing more about it, it's aims, the organization, etc. Thanks for popping in to update us a bit Jamie.


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## Chimera (Dec 11, 2009)

Jamie, I think your right in so far as most of the reptile keeping community doesn't realise what it took to get the licensing system in place (particularly in NSW). I don't think the issues of the past should be completely forgotten however there are keepers who bear a grudge against the legislators and a combative approach will not be productive. There were a few people at the combines herp society meeting to discuss caging standards that quite combative with the DECC representative (there were also a number of valid points raised in a polite manner).

We should not consider the formation of a national body to be a first strike or a way for the reptile keeping community to close ranks. It should be formed as an organisation to engage commonwealth legislators on behalf of reptile keepers and facilitate cooporation between state legislators and the local reptile keeping community. This will require the representatives to be level headed and polite with unquestionable integrity. Those I know who are currently involved with the NRKA fit this bill. I look forward to hearing more Jamie.

Damien


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

Forget about dealing with cranky scrubs for a moment. What happens when officials start finding snakes outside their native range? Who will they blame? Then.....the knee will jerk.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

Chimera said:


> Jamie, I think your right in so far as most of the reptile keeping community doesn't realise what it took to get the licensing system in place (particularly in NSW). I don't think the issues of the past should be completely forgotten however there are keepers who bear a grudge against the legislators and a combative approach will not be productive. There were a few people at the combines herp society meeting to discuss caging standards that quite combative with the DECC representative (there were also a number of valid points raised in a polite manner).
> 
> We should not consider the formation of a national body to be a first strike or a way for the reptile keeping community to close ranks. It should be formed as an organisation to engage commonwealth legislators on behalf of reptile keepers and facilitate cooporation between state legislators and the local reptile keeping community. This will require the representatives to be level headed and polite with unquestionable integrity. Those I know who are currently involved with the NRKA fit this bill. I look forward to hearing more Jamie.
> 
> Damien



Well said, Damien.


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## moosenoose (Dec 11, 2009)

I feel genuinely sorry for these breeders in the States, but this issue seriously has NOTHING to do with us! Some of you should be in the ballooning industry because the amount of hot air being blasted around in this thread is nothing short of astounding! What part of "giant exotic snakes" being the KEY problem here don't you guys understand?? The noise being made this is understandably due to people potentially losing their livelihoods! Of course that'll drum up stories of hellfire and brimstone! But if you remove yourself from the emotion, and with some of you being too close to people "sadly" going down with a sinking ship, the threat here ISN'T happening!

Let's say I'm wrong though, let's see some "written" proof that animal activists are trying to derail the Australian herp community? So far I've seen guns compared to snakes, now anacondas compared to scrubbies. As they say in the movies "show me the money!"


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## Cheyne_Jones (Dec 11, 2009)

I totally agree with those who say that we should be prepared for anything when our government has the potential to end everything. It can happen and anything is possible when you have those opposed to what we do lobbying the right people.

Through my business I am constantly involved with various government departments and the stupid things they come up with and impose on us would blow your mind. We have just had a new standard imposed on a food product we manufacture that requires us to maintain levels of a certain compound 8 times lower than the previous standard and 5 times lower that the world health organisation standard, for no reason at all (ie you cant get sick from it, 1/3 of the worlds population lives on the stuff as a staple diet). The reason we could not get this standard amended or stopped is because our competition being major international companies had more money to spend lobbying the right people (even though we were spending 50k + per month).

So dont think governments wont stomp all over what you love for a reason you cant understand, they can and will if they get pressure in the right places.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Sorry, been busy since my last visit yesterday. I'm not surprised that the 'naive parochials' as I call them (moosenoose, Daz_McC, [email protected] come to mind...) can't see the forest for the trees. As has been pointed out (by me, I know!) this is not about reptiles, it's about political influence and power. We are just an easy target because reptiles are distasteful to many people, reptiles can and do kill people and can pose other threats, and in many cases they are kept by complete idiots (as are many other animals of course...).

It only takes one or two zealous animal rights people to occupy positions of influence in an appropriate government department to begin a process of philosophical change in that department. It happens slowly, but very subtly, and before you know what is happening there is a massive groundswell of negative sentiment generated.

Reptile keeping is very fertile ground for the 'anti wildlife keeping zealots'. It is still regarded as an odd pasttime by a large section of the community, many older bureaucrats (and the younger ones they mentor) rue the day keeping became legal in each of their states, politicians love issues where they can be seen to "please' the public, and as I have said earlier, many keepers are simply the worst advocates for the hobby/industry. So, we are a large and relatively easy target... and anyone who can't see this has their heads in the sand.

I absolutely acknowledge that any representative body has to be made up of knowlegeable, experienced, savvy individuals who are, above all, diplomatic. It is one of the primary reasons for the failure of lobby groups to get reptile keeping mainstreamed long before it actually became legal. A noisy bunch of bogans will achieve nothing. Despite what I have written here, there ARE two sides to any story, and if we want anyone to listen to our concerns, we need to be prepared to listen to theirs, and either acknowledge them as genuine, or offer good reasons why those arguments don't fly.

Be assured that in this game, nothing is ever to be taken for granted. The individuals employed by governments are just as good or even better than we are at developing strategies to achieve outcomes that suit them. In my experience, very few of them keep, or are even interested in, reptiles (in some states they are not permitted to!) so they are readily targetted by pressure groups.

The animal rights organisations are well funded, great strategists, and are politically active on a global scale. This is not a one-off threat to our right to keep and breed native animals - it will be constant and ongoing. If we don't maintain good dialogue with those who manage our hobby/industry, and we suffer damage because we are unaware of what's coming to get us... we only have ourselves to blame.

More on the NRKA later today.

Jamie.


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## NickM (Dec 11, 2009)

The burmese python that killed a 2 year old child in Florida , the event that fueled this law , was only the size of an average coastal carpet. It was not a monster, just a skinny 2meter snake. 

The first time some irrersponsible herpers pet python kills a child you will be facing a a similar situation. It WILL happen, eventually its bound to happen, and being organized and ready for it can save your hobby.

Nick


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## Colin (Dec 11, 2009)

NickM said:


> The burmese python that killed a 2 year old child in Florida , the event that fueled this law , was only the size of an average coastal carpet. It was not a monster, just a skinny 2meter snake.
> 
> The first time some irrersponsible herpers pet python kills a child you will be facing a a similar situation. It WILL happen, eventually its bound to happen, and being organized and ready for it can save your hobby.
> 
> Nick



wasnt there even some doubt that the python actually killed the child and was used as a cover up by the mother and boyfriend?

but I agree we definitely need to be organised into a co-hesive national group.. the sooner the better.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Indeed Nick, in fact it doesn't even need to happen here. The event can just be transposed across the Pacific, used an example of how dangerous even a 2m python can be, and off we go into battle... How many of us have carpets 2m and over - many, many of us...

Complacency is our worst enemy by far.

J.


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## JasonL (Dec 11, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Complacency is our worst enemy by far.
> 
> J.



Maybe reptile licences should be harder to obtain, as atm anyone who knows nothing of snakes can buy a relatively large python... though of course that may turn some people off, but maybe thats not such a bad thing?


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## zulu (Dec 11, 2009)

*re Banning*

The pressing issue in australia at the moment is the issueing of takers licenses by state governments trying to make a few dollars,this is an immediate problem,how many womas bhps and stimsons does calm need to take in west aussie ? They need a kick in the bum,thats a job for president zulu to send my fancy tongued NRKA diplomats to meet with CALM and rectify the situation.


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## JasonL (Dec 11, 2009)

You'll need to send your very best tribesmen Zulu.... a risky assignment for sure.


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## carpetmuncher (Dec 11, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Sorry, been busy since my last visit yesterday.
> 
> More on the NRKA later today.


 

sorry Jamie, i don't want this to sound like a personal attack, but it's like the Victorian Expo, no-one had enough time. if the nrka has been incorporated, is it a case that the people running it, don't have enough time to do it properly? has it been formed so as just to put a claim on the name? i cannot understand why there is talk about it for months, including an 'unveiling', yet everyone involved has been too busy.

can you really expect everyone to put their trust in a nrka that, like clubs, use the excuse 'we've been too busy' when things don't happen.

not attacking you jamie, but a lot of people to get involved with clubs and other organisations that cannot spend the time to perform their commitments properly.

i fully support a nrka concept, but not a casual one.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Maybe reptile licences should be harder to obtain, as atm anyone who knows nothing of snakes can buy a relatively large python... though of course that may turn some people off, but maybe thats not such a bad thing?



That sounds like a great idea. Also, if we make guns harder to obtain, criminals won't have them. Look, I live in a state that prohibits the keeping of venomous species without a scientific permit, which is very, very difficult to obtain. The result? The only people that have hots are people that are stupid enough to think they're going to get them to show off and be cool around their friend, and will never get caught. So, in essence, the people in my state that are currently keeping venomous and anacondas (also prohibited) are the exact people that shouldn't have them.


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## Twin_Rivers (Dec 11, 2009)

I have been reading through this forum over the last couple of days, and in a small way understand the threat. Animal rights activists target groups that will give them good publicity, this is after all thier business, their income is sourced from donations so they spin lies and embelish in a way to get media attention. They focus on celebrities to back and support them who do it for the publicity it gets them, with little or no real understanding of the cause they are fighting against. Celebrities support ehn people who look up to these celebrities support it, more funding. This gets them media time and sway. They then will target specific large businesses and persuade people away from their products because they support animal cruelity. There for that company stops supporting that industry. What if AAE stopped transporting reptiles? What if the RSPCA brought in a law,after being lobbied by and Animal Rights group, that it is now illegal to breed animals solely for the purpose of food? 
The aniaml rights groups will also get colour photos and video of animals kept in poor conditions or eating live animals and portray this as what reptile keepers as a whole do with their animals. People who do not like snakes will say eww a snake no one should be allowed to keep them, people with empathy will say they shouldn't be allowed to keep snakes like that either way anyone looks at it (apart from a small minority of rednecks) will say its wrong.
The Animal rights groups will take partitions and people with the best debating skills and put them in front of parliment, they will sit down with as many members of parliment as they can and talk to them showing them pictures signatures and making them think that the majority of the population feel the same way and it would be best to show thier support, after all politics is just a large popularity contest, if you don't get voted in you don't get paid. Groups such as PETA will make it a large part of any political parties agenda, even when more serious threats should be on top of the pile.
With out a national body noone will listen to the average joe from woop woop herp club who says " I look after my herps properly ........... hello, down here ....excuse me...." We Need a voice.
If you think the industry is to big that the economic impact will be to grerat for the government to react, it is only a few years ago that PETA attacked the Australian Wool Industry and won, an industry that is worth billions. The effect is yet to be seen as AWC negotiated to have a beeter alternative in place by 2010. there will be a lot less wool coming from rural Australia soon, that will bve a loss of jobs and businesses it has a potential to bankrupt much of the rural economy which is already struggling after years of drought. The CSIRO have come up with a few alternatives and breeding is developing sheep less susceptable to fly strike but there is nothing as cost effective and as efficient as Mulesing. 
The Livestock Contractors Group were prepared with backing from a major chemical/drug company, and were still unable to over come the ferocity at which PETA attacked the practice.
We need to be organised, not to agree on everything, but to agree on that we want to keep having the priviledge of owning and breeding our beautiful pets. 
Sorry for the long reply but it scares me to think that there are people with the wool over their eyes couldn't happen. It could happen I think we should be prepared even if nothing happens, we have air bags in our car might never use them either but I am glad they are there.
Regards,
Phil


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> Let's say I'm wrong though, let's see some "written" proof that animal activists are trying to derail the Australian herp community? So far I've seen guns compared to snakes, now anacondas compared to scrubbies. As they say in the movies "show me the money!"



Here's some money....be back soon....off to find some more. BTW, the HSUS has nothing to do with the actual Humane Society. They simply expanded upon the name to gain some credibility without having to actually earn it.

Senate Panel Approves Large Constrictor Snake Trade Ban : The Humane Society of the United States


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 11, 2009)

I understand this is a highly emotive issue, that there are some who are upset by the implications this law will have for them, and that there are some who are upset by the implications this law MIGHT have for them. But there's a great deal of rudeness, dismissiveness and unecessary hysteria coming across in some of these posts. I for one can't see how the formation of a national body to represent the needs of all keepers can be done fairly, if those who would be involved cannot manage to be respectful of of others solely because they have a difference of opinion. If even the people who see the need for diplomacy in such a situation can't manage it in a civil discussion on the issue, what hope is there? Having been involved in keeping snakes for a little while now, and knowing a number of people who have kept for decades (and being a human being!), I can safely say that there is simply no such thing as a completely fair, unbiased and diplomatic reptile keeper. There just isn't. I know some absolutely lovely people involved in this hobby who'd give you the shirt off their back and their last GTP just because they could, and even THEY can't manage to be completely unbiased and diplomatic. I freely admit I myself am incapable of always seeing past my feelings and putting them aside to further the needs of people I don't agree with. 

If there are those of you who truly believe the only way to protect our rights is to form one group to get our cause heard then we're doomed already if this thread is any indication.


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## ozziepythons (Dec 11, 2009)

I can recall 15 years ago at a monthly Herpetological Society meeting in Adelaide, that a concern was addressed that a 'rabid' animal rights group was making moves to instigate a ban on keeping reptiles in captivity. I couldn't wrap my mind around it: who were these extremists who assumed enough power to derail us? Over the years since, my eyes have been opened and indeed such extremists exist, and regularly meet to consolidate their powers. Maybe not with reptile keepers completely at their mind's focus, but we are in their sites. As Simon pointed out in one of his posts and has remarked to me personally, they infiltrate government by becoming employees and work the system from the inside. Simon himself has come to loggerheads with such people when attempting to obtain approval for obtaining and captive breeding certain species (such as the Gammon Ranges Carpets). 
These people, groups, etc., use unfortunate circumstances to push their agenda, such as the Burmese in the Everglades, and the young girl who was constricted and killed by an albino Burmese. Pythons have killed people in Australia before, and I know of one instance when a carpet python constricted a young boy in an attempt to consume him (he was alright). We must not leave ourselves vulnerable to knee jerk legislation.Therefore we must not be complacent about forming a national group, it is imperative and concerns me that it still has not happened after many years of discussion. The time is now. It must not follow the typical Australian trend of forming a group when an issue arises, as disbands as it recedes. It must be formed and increase in strength, be politically minded and extremely competent in its arguments. Otherwise, like the Barkers in the US, we have a lot to lose.....


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks Cm, I don't see that as a personal attack - quite a reasonable observation actually.

I do apologise for my low profile (lots of people would prefer it remain that way I guess!!!) over the past few months, but circumstances made it necessary at the time.

The main issue with any organisation is getting and retaining energetic people, and having an understanding of the obvious issues which need to be addressed, and also of the things which are bubbling along under the surface which require a certain sort of intuition, for want of a better word. Often, if there are no pressing or threatening matters on the horizon, things lapse until the next threat arises. Remaining motivated through all these cycles can be difficult for some people, especially if they are busy in other lives, which is probably most of us from time to time.

I've been a relative latecomer to the NRKA discussion, but it was formed by a group of 'senoir' herpers, for want of a better word, a couple of years ago, but never formally incorporated. This was done just recently by Peter Johnson, and I will publish the list of office bearers later today if I can get hold of Pete.

This intial management body is really an interim group made up of those who were first involved. It was not supposed to be more than a foundation group to allow us to begin discussions about structure, how it will operate state by state to be a truly national representative body, and the main issues we will face, both now and in the future. It will be a very large and time consuming task to get people together, achieve consensus (with herpers... you've got to be kidding...) and move forward. I have been keeping a low profile for a couple of reasons, one of the major ones being the potential for the dismantlers in our ranks to disrupt progress. It is my view that we need to develop a strong core group with common goals before we canvass the wider community for important issues.

This is in no way meant to imply that secrecy or any other devious plots are afoot, just that we'll never float anything if the naysayers are drilling holes in the bottom of our boat from the laying of the first plank... You can see, even from the debate here, that there are people in the hobby who are not just indifferent, but have the potential to be negative and damaging. If they have access to oxygen from day one, we'll never move forward. I would see the early NRKA as a highly flexible structure with room to move in any or all directions as circumstances dictate. 

There has been talk of making one of the offices in the NRKA a paid position, to allow the dedication of sufficient time to keep the place in order and moving along. There is a huge amount to discuss, and I think I need to kick a few butts now to get things happening.

Back again soon...

Jamie.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 11, 2009)

According to that document its only interstate movements that are affected? Its a trade ban. So people whos business is affected will be upset about this. Nobody needs to euthenase any animals. I can understand why they want to regulate these 9 species. 


*The bill would not affect possession or sales within a state. People would keep and retain responsibility for existing animals. *


We are already regulated by our government.


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## Jungletrans (Dec 11, 2009)

With Americans as they are l can see many [ most ] snake owners , being faced with the handover of their pets for destruction , choosing to release them into the wild instead .


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## cris (Dec 11, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> Let's say I'm wrong though, let's see some "written" proof that animal activists are trying to derail the Australian herp community? So far I've seen guns compared to snakes, now anacondas compared to scrubbies. As they say in the movies "show me the money!"



Pull your head out of the sand and read some of their websites, many of them are completely opposed to all pets, but they are more against keeping wildilfe. Sea kittens belong in the sea not in a fish tank


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## beatlloydy (Dec 11, 2009)

I have read this topic through and there are a lot of diverging opinions. However, I do believe that herp keepers are a minority voice in politics. Most of my friends do not understand the joy of keeping herps. They think the only good snake is a dead snake.

Animal rights lobby groups are quite strong in Australia so it is only a matter of time before we are in their sights. Many of them dont understand that a well kept snake has all its needs met. I take mine out several times a week and additional exercise is achieved there. I also observe it at night and they can be quite active...In the wild many dont travel long distances but stay close to known food sources. Many activists would not understand this.

The best way to approach this is to work on the premise that banning of reptiles could happen. That way if we are prepared we wont have any surprises. I urge all to join a herp group. Also, raise this topic in the next meeting as there are a lot of very experienced people at dealing with lobbying who can present a sane voice to beaurocrats.

The amount of money generated via the legal trade in herps would be quite significant. Personally, over the last 4 months I have spent more than $3000 investing in enclosures and reptiles (got quite a few on order).
This money is all part of the economy and does help with creating jobs and income for people.

I also urge all to refrain from the temptation to illegally keep exotics as a) this gives a bad rep to herpkeepers in general and b) we have such a unique flora/fauna that exotics could potentially pose a threat as the conditions would suit many of them if enough escaped or were let loose.

If we try and abide by the rules set down by various DECC departments and keep our reps as pure as possible this gives other lobby groups less targets to aim at.
As the current regulations stand I feel they are adequate and even agree with the NSW DECC guidelines so long as they dont become mandatory. These guidelines are perfect for new keepers to gain some basic understanding of what is required when purchasing a new reptile. 

We do need a united front at State and Federal level and not adopt a head in the sand attitude...but probably no need to panic at this stage.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Anita, respectfully, I have no understanding of what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that those who would threaten our hobby are reasoned, and reasonable, individuals...that they themselves are not organised into subtle but powerful and extensive lobby groups... that those with dishonourable or disruptive intentions exist only on our side of the fence? If we sit on our hands and be nice to everybody we will be steamrollered flatter than Sydney airport.

As far as a single representative body is concerned... a REPRESENTATIVE body is exactly what is envisaged. Problems just cannot be addressed satisfactorily by a rabble of smaller (read weaker) voices. Squeaky wheels have a habit of getting the oil - make no noise and the bearing may well seize before you know it's in trouble.

At best, any representative group can please most of the people some of the time, if you're lucky, maybe most of the time. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

Jamie.


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## beatlloydy (Dec 11, 2009)

Only new to herps but I agree an organisation like NRKA is vital so we are ready to take on the beaurocrats if.when required. This would be ideal if senior members of herp societies could represent on the "board" or something similar.

Via this site I do see a lot of diverging opinions etc but my brief association with AHS (Austrlaian Herp Society) has led me to believe there are some very intelligent and sane people with herp interests and conservation of wildlife at heart. This makes me feel comfortable that herp interests and conservation can live together harmoniously.

Having these people represent us would make me feel like progress can be made. Perhaps national membership of NRKA could be an issue to take to local herp societies with every member receiving 1 vote on issues but board members receiving say 5 votes or something (as they are the ones prepared to put in time/effort)...as I can understand how the "lunatic fringe" could easily derail something as important as this.

Keep up the good work Jamie..sounds like you have our interests at heart.


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 11, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Anita, respectfully, I have no understanding of what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that those who would threaten our hobby are reasoned, and reasonable, individuals...that they themselves are not organised into subtle but powerful and extensive lobby groups... that those with dishonourable or disruptive intentions exist only on our side of the fence? If we sit on our hands and be nice to everybody we will be steamrollered flatter than Sydney airport.
> 
> As far as a single representative body is concerned... a REPRESENTATIVE body is exactly what is envisaged. Problems just cannot be addressed satisfactorily by a rabble of smaller (read weaker) voices. Squeaky wheels have a habit of getting the oil - make no noise and the bearing may well seize before you know it's in trouble.
> 
> ...


 Clearly, if what you took from what I said was that I thought the "threat" to our hobby are all reasonable and unorganised and that only hobbyists are dishonourable then you have misunderstood enitrely, either willfully or through hysteria. I would explain again, but I can see that you are far too carried away in this to truly give thought to the intention of anyone who doesn't see this issue exactly as you see it.

Ironically, I have already said that I see there is an agenda held by some in EPA like groups to keep us from doing what we love. I just don't think that standing in a stool, holding up our skirts and shrieking at the metaphorical mouse is the way to do it. It only blinds us to the complete picture and paranoia spreads to the point where anyone who expresses a slight divergence in view is seen as a threat.


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## Daz_McC (Dec 11, 2009)

Ok. Don't believe me. What do the rabid animal liberation groups say about reptile keeping on their websites?

PETA. Doesn't even have an Australian website so they are clearly a real force here. Closest website is Asia-Pacific. Lots of campaigns mentioned but nothing on reptile keeping.

Animal Liberation. Campaign to ban the sale of dogs and cats in pet shops. No mention of reptile keeping.

Voiceless. Campaigns against factory farming, circuses and kangaroo meat. Nothing on reptile keeping.

But maybe it's a big secret conspiracy. Maybe these groups have infiltrated government departments and are just biding their time, trying to lull the reptile community into a false sense of security. Then before you know it... bam. Your door gets bashed down and a ranger is confiscating your reptiles. Get real.

If you want to worry about PETA hiding under your bed you're free to do so. Me, I'm going to have a long trouble-free sleep tonight.


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## ozianimals (Dec 11, 2009)

First off, the laws need to be national not state before a national lobbying group would work.
Then what happens if the lobbying group has any control over herpers, they start telling us how we must do things. Look through all of the posts on this site and tell me the "experts" don't give conflicting advice based on their experience.
How could this possibly work. I don't need you to tell me how to keep my reps, and I'm sure you don't need me making rules for you on how to keep your animals. Otherwise all cats and dogs would be outlawed.
We have herp societies that could meet nationally and lobby against this, and my doctor going to parliment would have the same affect as me going.Your status or education don't change a governments agenda. The only way this could be solved is if everyone not just those on this site, does the right thing. We all know this will never happen.


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## carpetmuncher (Dec 11, 2009)

Jungletrans said:


> With Americans as they are l can see many [ most ] snake owners , being faced with the handover of their pets for destruction , choosing to release them into the wild instead .


 
i think you're reading more into it. the legislation restricts interstate movements, not requiring animals being handed over for destruction. existing pets remain with their owners.


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## moosenoose (Dec 11, 2009)

cris said:


> Pull your head out of the sand and read some of their websites, many of them are completely opposed to all pets, but they are more against keeping wildilfe. Sea kittens belong in the sea not in a fish tank



That's great Chris, thanks for the abundance of information you've supplied me with…..quite frankly I think you’re the one who needs to “pull your head out of the sand"  :lol:

I'm not one for scaremongering, and I certainly DON’T believe or swallow the wad loads of dribble being thrashed about, or waved in front of my face unless it’s backed up with proof!! I've seen none here!! And nobody is supplying any!!! Don’t post me ridiculous animal liberation group websites and the like, show me where these people have a leg to stand on in relation to Australians keeping and breeding native reptiles! 

Pit Bulls have been banned in this country for good reason! It’s due to people unable to control a dangerous breed of animal! The same thing has happened in the States! Should a breeder/keeper of scrub pythons cast a poor light on the herp industry in Australia, then it’s something we’ll have to wear! Do you think the Australian gun lobby, as powerful as it is, had a chance in hell of stopping the bill that made illegal large calibre semi-auto weapons? And all it took was one idiot to derail it! YOU ARE ALL KIDDING YOURSELVES if you think any group can stand up and defend the indefensible! What needs to happen here is tighter laws regarding “pythons over a certain size”, “venomous snake licensing” and probably a range of other issues to prevent mishaps from occurring! That’s not head-in-the-sand stuff, that’s common bloody sense!

I know there are animal rights activists, I’m not blind! Even Steve Irwin himself was against the general public keeping reptiles in private collections – that’s common knowledge! Does anyone on here honestly think this bill being passed in the States, for the banning of 9 large species of exotic python has been done for anything other than the right reasons?? The phrase “Something’s got to give” is what has happened here!

This thread would have read better if the doomsayers had simply said: Let's create a body that protects the general interest of herpetologists in this country, rather than the "sky-is-falling", "their coming for our guns" war-cries I keep hearing. Nothing gets my back up more than people telling me that mystery elements are at work undermining our interests, yet fail to produce proof to back those claims up! I’m not a “yes” man, and sure as hell I’m not a sheep either! Proof, proof, proof! 



> The Humane Society of the United States and the Humane Society Legislative Fund applaud the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee for approving S. 373, a bill to add certain constrictor snakes to the list of injurious species that cannot be imported or moved in interstate commerce as pets. The committee amended the bill to cover nine species of large constrictor snakes identified by the U.S. Geological Survey as posing high or medium risk to the environment.



Thanks for the link Mike, but it still doesn’t shed any light on why people are claiming we’re going to be targeted here. Personally, I can understand this bill, and the reasons it has been brought about. In hindsight, if you knew the damage some of these snakes have done, would you honestly still have allowed them in???? That’s the question that needs asking.


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## Sdaji (Dec 11, 2009)

I am amazed to see some people playing this issue down!

What we have here is so-called "animal rights" groups doing whatever they can to get reptiles out of private hands using whatever excuse they can come up with. Keep in mind that this ban is only being attempted because the ban on all reptiles was successfully knocked back by those who did not fail to see the big threat, while those who said "Yeah, whatever, we'll be okay, it will never happen" stood by and did not help. If everyone had that attitude there would be a complete ban on the keeping of all native wildlife both here and in the USA.

Powerful groups such as the RSPCA and PETA actively seek to stop private individuals like you and me from keeping reptiles. It really is that simple. If you support them, you support a ban on our hobby.

Some people criticise me when I say these things, they do not believe me. If you do not believe me, send a polite email to RSPCA and ask them yourself what their stance on the keeping of reptiles by private individuals is. If you don't want to believe me, take it directly from the horse's mouth.

Absolutely, the excuse being used in the USA at the moment is not 100% relevant in Australia (but keep in mind that Scrub, Olive and other large pythons do not occur in most parts of Australia and almost never in the middle of our large capitals, so the issue does exist here). However, keep in mind that these extremist groups will use whatever excuse they can to encourage politicians to bring in restrictive laws, and keep in mind that politicians from Canberra are typically scared of snakes, and live in an area where large snakes such as Olives and Scrubs do not occur. The main platform taken by the RSPCA and PETA etc is "animal welfare" but they will use any excuse they can get at any given time.

We have a very real threat to our hobby, potentially a complete ban on the keeping of ALL native wildlife. If we can do anything to support those in the USA we will not only help them but also prevent a precedent which could bite us. If the proposal to ban the large pythons is accepted over there it will be a foot in the door for further restriction. Remember that if something like this can happen in USA, the 'land of liberty', it could very easily happen in Australia, the 'land of tight wildlife laws'.

It really does not help us to say "Oh, it will be okay, it will never happen here, relax, sit back, do not help". Even if you are convinced of that position, please, do not discourage others who may want to help. Even if you were correct, it would not be hurting if people were letting politicians and the RSPCA know that they support the keeping of native animals. It does not hurt to educate people about the benefits of wildlife in private hands.

Bans have already been brought in, in several countries, for all sorts of reasons. In some places such as Germany you are allowed to keep exotic animals but not natives! This highlights the fact that regulatory bodies and "animal rights" groups will have all sorts of strange reasons to do all sorts of strange things, and anything can happen. Without our support, crazy things *will* happen.


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## Kurto (Dec 11, 2009)

Daz_McC said:


> Ok. Don't believe me. What do the rabid animal liberation groups say about reptile keeping on their websites?
> 
> PETA. Doesn't even have an Australian website so they are clearly a real force here. Closest website is Asia-Pacific. Lots of campaigns mentioned but nothing on reptile keeping.
> 
> ...



PETA is only one group and probably not the one we need to worry about in this country. I'd more worried about a whistle blower polly who's child gets bitten by a red belly while playing in a back yard. There's already enough negative and naive propaganda perpetuated though the main news papers over safety from native animals.


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## RemoverAccount (Dec 11, 2009)

I better get my tinfoil hat on!


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## Sdaji (Dec 11, 2009)

Moosenoose: If you are correct, and "something had to give" because the situation with huge snakes was getting ridiculous (which is perhaps quite true), what is needed is for the reptile community to form a self regulating body which puts restrictions on itself. There are many precedents of this happening with other industries. Where a body self regulates and does even a remotely good job, the government typically accepts it as the authority and allows it to do the job itself. Forcing the government to step in and create restrictive laws at the request of groups which want an entire ban is setting ourselves up for disaster. Surely that is obvious.

It seems that too few people understand this situation, and potentially things could go very badly. We really can't afford to be complacent here.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

AnitaBlake said:


> I understand this is a highly emotive issue, that there are some who are upset by the implications this law will have for them, and that there are some who are upset by the implications this law MIGHT have for them. But there's a great deal of rudeness, dismissiveness and unecessary hysteria coming across in some of these posts. I for one can't see how the formation of a national body to represent the needs of all keepers can be done fairly, if those who would be involved cannot manage to be respectful of of others solely because they have a difference of opinion. If even the people who see the need for diplomacy in such a situation can't manage it in a civil discussion on the issue, what hope is there? Having been involved in keeping snakes for a little while now, and knowing a number of people who have kept for decades (and being a human being!), I can safely say that there is simply no such thing as a completely fair, unbiased and diplomatic reptile keeper. There just isn't. I know some absolutely lovely people involved in this hobby who'd give you the shirt off their back and their last GTP just because they could, and even THEY can't manage to be completely unbiased and diplomatic. I freely admit I myself am incapable of always seeing past my feelings and putting them aside to further the needs of people I don't agree with.
> 
> If there are those of you who truly believe the only way to protect our rights is to form one group to get our cause heard then we're doomed already if this thread is any indication.


My old signature used to read: "Those who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, do so at the expense of their integrity and credibility." I rather like healthy debate. We, as humans, are an emotional little bunch! Remember, I have no dog in this hunt. I'm only here to convey a message in the best interests of the herpetocultural community. Please explain to me why you would point out the possible problems rather than the potential benefit of an organization aimed at preserving Aussie reptile keepers' common interests.



CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> According to that document its only interstate movements that are affected? Its a trade ban. So people whos business is affected will be upset about this. Nobody needs to euthenase any animals. I can understand why they want to regulate these 9 species.
> 
> 
> *The bill would not affect possession or sales within a state. People would keep and retain responsibility for existing animals. *
> ...



So are we! With all due respect, these animals are already regulated on the state level. I'm in NJ, where the laws are so restrictive, that I sell my animals in NY and PA. I would be prohibited from doing this if this passes. Furthermore, once passed, S.373 can be amended to include all 45 species....this bill is not limited to the big 9. I guess the best you guys can do is either get organized before this happens, or pray you don't get hit with any national legislation.

Also, this bill would prohibit the captive reproduction of these animals. There has been language presented which would call for the euthanasia of animals born/hatched after the ban passes.



beatlloydy said:


> I have read this topic through and there are a lot of diverging opinions. However, I do believe that herp keepers are a minority voice in politics. Most of my friends do not understand the joy of keeping herps. They think the only good snake is a dead snake.
> 
> Animal rights lobby groups are quite strong in Australia so it is only a matter of time before we are in their sights. Many of them dont understand that a well kept snake has all its needs met. I take mine out several times a week and additional exercise is achieved there. I also observe it at night and they can be quite active...In the wild many dont travel long distances but stay close to known food sources. Many activists would not understand this.
> 
> ...



Hey, Anita...this guy sounds pretty reasonable. Not rude or argumentative or anything! Hehe.


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## caustichumor (Dec 11, 2009)

I would like to see that amnesty, (if the laws where passed) We all take our reptiles down to the collection depot and feed them into a wood chipper. Big win for the animal lib front there.... ;-)


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> Thanks for the link Mike, but it still doesn’t shed any light on why people are claiming we’re going to be targeted here. Personally, I can understand this bill, and the reasons it has been brought about. In hindsight, if you knew the damage some of these snakes have done, would you honestly still have allowed them in???? That’s the question that needs asking.



No.....the question that needs asking is how can we correct this problem from a scientific standpoint without jeopardizing a $3B industry. In your opinion, how does this bill help solve the problem?


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> I would like to see that amnesty, (if the laws where passed) We all take our reptiles down to the collection depot and feed them into a wood chipper. Big win for the animal lib front there.... ;-)



If this bill passes, a friend of mine will not be able to keep and feed his animals. His sales pay for his husbandry expenses, as do most of ours. He plans on bringing his animals directly to his senator's office......ALL OF THEM!


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Do you think that this national group should be controlling over it's members in any way, or just used as a political lever?



Well we know what WE would like, but it's a catch 22; if the group is able to dictate terms and assume control over the way we do things, then there will be a rebellion, much like an APS argument except on a grander scale and with more venom (oun intended). However if the group has no control, then they will be seen as harmless and as a relatively minor threat to those that wish to destroy the hobby.

The way it would need to roll, in my worthless opinion, is that we would need to solicit members not just from our little circle here; but a few high profile members, not just the Bob Irwins of this world, but the celeb keepers, environmental groups, and, if any exist, major political party members who respect the hobby- because without access to media we will just look like a bunch of ferals trying to act out our Steve Irwin fantasies. The association in an ideal world would be an elected composition of commercial entities, government reps, environmental, domestic and international keepers and breeders- with complete transparency regarding decision making. In THAT perfect world the association would not be left or right leaning- but with the right make up of supporters could almost self regulate. 

But pipe dreams like this will never come to fruition whilst we can't even agree on what constitutes a jag, or who has a right to help a newbie. Unity is the only way forward,but unfortunatley the only shot at the title we have would need a Union-like mentality, a clear set of rules, and a group consciousness to roll with the association's decisions if they are made with the best interests of the hobby in mind.

There are constant power struggles beneath the surface of Aussie keeping; between breeders, publications, regions, states, individuals, businesses....the list goes on. Having worked in many volunteer organistations, I have witnessedfirst hand the politics in smaller groups, let alone trying to unify a not-for-profit with no political swing trying to unify a bunch of outcasts like us who all think individually, have the balls to speak up, and who can't agree on much. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but let's be _realistic_ here- those who have the ability to get the ball rolling are always going to succumb to the human instinct to dominate. There will always be someone pointing out the alterior motives, the inconsistency and the obvious hipocrisy in any decision made under the guise of community-interest.

I say enjoy our reptiles, and take good care of them. The only thing that will bring this hobby down are the idiots who make breeding decisions and import decisions for their own individual gain. All it will take is one decent bust by a well respected but dodgy breeder to draw media attention to us and bring the house crashing down. So behave yourselves because alot of us see what's going on....some of us are educated enough to realise that those who live in glass houses shouldnt go running outside to tell us our quiet shed is made of the same fragile material, when there are clearly alterior motives and a vested financial interest.



/


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 11, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> My old signature used to read: "Those who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, do so at the expense of their integrity and credibility." I rather like healthy debate. We, as humans, are an emotional little bunch! Remember, I have no dog in this hunt. I'm only here to convey a message in the best interests of the herpetocultural community. Please explain to me why you would point out the possible problems rather than the potential benefit of an organization aimed at preserving Aussie reptile keepers' common interests..


Put quite simply Mike, I don't see that there is much benefit in ONE representative group, especially not when the people who would claim to represent all keepers, and urge them to put aside differences to work together have already shown they are unable to put aside their own differences and take into consideration the opinionso of those on their side of the debate who would express a dfference of opinion. I also agree with the opinions JasonL has expressed on this matter.


MikeCurtin said:


> Hey, Anita...this guy sounds pretty reasonable. Not rude or argumentative or anything! Hehe.


Makes a nice change from what I've seen here, doesn't it ?


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting that moosenoose and Daz_McC need proof in writing.

Of course these organisations are open to scrutiny and fully accountable for everything they do...NOT. Of course they will conspicuously pin their names to whaling, the live sheep trade, the mulesing debate and other issues about which there is considerable public disquiet, but their interest and influence is way more far reaching than that, and they don't flag their intentions by putting their plans on websites.

Moosenoose, you seem agitated by the debate so far. If you don't think there's a problem, that's fine, but why hang around in the thread? If it doesn't concern you, move on to something else that can consume your energy in a more positive manner. We'll be fine without you.

Jamie.


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 11, 2009)

I truly don't see why it is we can't express a difference of opinion without being labelled uncaring or dissenting. Isn't there room for everyone's opinions here?


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

AnitaBlake said:


> Put quite simply Mike, I don't see that there is much benefit in ONE representative group, especially not when the people who would claim to represent all keepers, and urge them to put aside differences to work together have already shown they are unable to put aside their own differences and take into consideration the opinionso of those on their side of the debate who would express a dfference of opinion. I also agree with the opinions JasonL has expressed on this matter.
> Makes a nice change from what I've seen here, doesn't it ?



The benefit in ONE group is unity. Despite the heated debate, or perhaps as a result of it, a consensus may be made as to what is best for your Aussie reptile community. This is where your strength lies. 5 different groups pulling legislators in 5 different directions = DISASTER!!!


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Anita, once again you are talking in riddles. If you are referring to my comments thus far, please feel free to mention me or to challenge me if you see fit - I can only answer your concerns if I know they have been generated by what I have said.

Frankly I think the debate here so far has been very organised and reasonably polite. I have expressed a few opinions, and suggested that those with nothing positive to add (this can be either supportive or otherwise, as long as it contributes SOMETHING) go elsewhere on the site, where their energies might be more usefully employed.

As far as the 'group' assuming control and dictating the way keepers do things - that is not the aim and will not happen. The 'group' involved at this early stage of the NRKA is largely made up of the same people who were negotiating with DECC in support of keepers in NSW recently. The outcome could have been very different if this was not the case. 

Jamie.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

AnitaBlake said:


> I truly don't see why it is we can't express a difference of opinion without being labelled uncaring or dissenting. Isn't there room for everyone's opinions here?


Use that Anita!!!! Use it!!! When someone acts in that manner, bring them right back to where the debate belongs, and call them on knocking it off course!!! You will be pleased by the results.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

To those who have mentioned this bill is only about 9 constrictor species, please pay careful attention to the last paragraph. It's only a matter of time.
Bill Nelson, U.S. Senator from Florida: Media Release: Key Senate panel passes import ban on giant snakes


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 11, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> The benefit in ONE group is unity. Despite the heated debate, or perhaps as a result of it, a consensus may be made as to what is best for your Aussie reptile community. This is where your strength lies. 5 different groups pulling legislators in 5 different directions = DISASTER!!!


 That would be lovely if people were capable of agreeing and respecting the opinions of others enough to take their views into consideration while "representing" them. In this country each state has differing laws, policed by different agencies. Which one should this one group be approaching? Hence (if you must have a group) the idea of a different group for each state. 

Jamie, there's nothing cryptic about my statements. They have been made in response to you as has clearly been seen. I have seen the usual run of differing opinions expressed in differing ways. Since you're one of the people talking about the need for cohesion, cooperation and diplomacy and some of your posts have been rudely dismissive when people have disagreed, I am understandably dubious about the true value in a group which would operate in the way you have described. Why should people who have a vested interest speak elsewhere? Why can't they contribute? And why is it that people showing their concern about some of our more lax laws are automatically branded dissenters?


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## moosenoose (Dec 11, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> No.....the question that needs asking is how can we correct this problem from a scientific standpoint without jeopardizing a $3B industry. In your opinion, how does this bill help solve the problem?




Actually, you are correct. The horse has bolted and it won’t really help at all. I also agree that such a huge industry should be protected. I guess when something is on fire; the best way to stop it spreading is aim for the centre. It appears this is what they are trying to achieving getting this legislation passed.

I’m not against a body speaking on behalf of keepers/breeders here in Australia, and I’d gladly join in the knowledge I’d be helping to throw weight into the numbers. If I also had to use hindsight, and something like this did happen here in Aust, I’d be silly if I said I wouldn’t want to be part of a group that helped protect those rights. Like I said earlier though, you have nothing short of a catastrophe on your hands with:


> Burmese pythons are already widely established in the Everglades, making it difficult if not impossible to remove them, and boa constrictors and Northern African pythons have been found in a smaller area of Florida.


, and whatever lobby power you thought you might have had went out the window when these things were either released or escaped. If we have deaths here in Australia, as a result of an escaped ven, a large constrictor or any other public safety issues that is a result of careless keeping, we won’t have a leg to stand on either. Sadly, that’s human nature. To make it worse we deal with critters people don’t want next door to them and would rather see wiped off the face of the planet all together.

Anyway, I'm sure I've put my personal view across on the matter. I will look on with interest. Enough from me


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

You've got me again Anita - my powers of perception are usually very good, but it wasn't totally clear to me that your problem was with me. I haven't actually actually dismissed anything anyone has said as far as I can see, but to those who say there is no proof of a threat, I am telling them they are wrong - from where I sit I know this to be true. All I suggest they do, if they see no threat, is to distance themselves from the debate because they have stated it does not concern them - they acknowledge that there is no need for action. That's fine by me, but if they actively try to dismantle work being done by many of us - I'll do a bit of name dropping - Simon Stone, John Weigel, Anthony Stimson, Glenn Shea, Mike Duncan, Jason Flesch, among many others - I will suggest they stay out of the loop.

The people I have mentioned have many and varied reasons for being involved with reptile keeping, but I have to say, to a man (yes, sadly there are few women) they have put their individual interests aside for the good of the hobby when dealing with threats to the hobby. Together they represent many decades of knowledge and experience. 

I know in whose hands I'd place my trust.

Jamie


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## Chimera (Dec 11, 2009)

Firstly, I think we can forget about national legislation on native animal keeping. Australia has a diverse environment with diverse wildlife and native species to one state could be considered a pest in others. I don't see the NRKA as being a national lobby group as an advisory council represting Australia's herpetoculturalists. There are going to be various obsticles in each state that will need to be overcome and the local herpetological societies in conjunction with a national body would be the ones to work on overcomming these obsticles.

It's rather funny to see the fear of animal protection organisations from a community that vehemently resisted minimum keeping standards. My opinion is that the NSW model does afford some protection because there will be a legislative control over the animals quality of life. It's a catch 22, the more control exherted on how we keep reptiles removed potential arguments presented by animal welfare organisations.

Damien


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

Oh Jamie that just glows with cohesion....."if you dont agree with our elite way of thinking...us experienced herpers...who have bled for your right to bare herps....then stay away, dont talk to us...or we will personally attack you and drop names to remind you how insignificant you are...then drop a subtle reference to the unimportance of your gender...then once again remind you of the invisible threat for which I cannot give you any hard evidence......"

Oh yeah, this little association is going to bring us all together isn't it- we will be singing kumbaya in no time. This thread is the EXACT reason that the head count you all need to continue making dollars from us is always going to feel patronised and disrespected.

So we have an American who makes money exporting to his associates backing up the people who make money from importing those herps convincing us we need to act...then we have the oldschool telling us to stay out of it while encouraging us to get into it...then we have educated less experienced keepers being shot down and dismissed when they try to offer an opinion that comes from a well meaning place....... sheesh !!!!



Doc said:


> And for those of you that think this is all paranoia and rubbish all I can say that I suspect you are responding from a small information base and limited experience in dealing with Government environmental and conservation groups across Australia. The threat is real.



See, this is the sort of commentary that is the root of the problem. It is not paranoia and rubbish we smell- it is just that so often minor collectors like us feel ignored and often patronised by the very industry we feed- and then when we are given the time of day it is because the weight of our membership is seen as one of the few tools available to help the industry stay afloat if the fan is hit by poo. Where were the high fives when we were handing over large wads of cash or getting uour friends into the hobby ? The industry was too busy counting the money and making sure the bills weren't fake.

Sweeping generalistaions, Innuendo,assuming we all know nothing, assuming all Conservation groups are militant left wingers...

Come on mate !

Some of us have experience working with government groups- some us work IN government groups- some of us are members of PETA and Sea Shepherd and Greenpeace and PETA.....some of us are well educated and well versed both in policy and in the processes which regulate the hobby...some of us get to read the paperwork, and see the hpocrisy whilst sitting back and watching the boys cry wolf..I am a meber of all those named, have hosted large groups in my home, and not ONCE EVER have i heard the hobby mentioned or been questioned or outcast for my hobby- with a house full of some of the more militant vegan types, the first question asked was, "can I hold one of them .." I have never been to a meeting to discuss anything but natural conservation and anti-exploitation. Climate Change and Gay Rights are further up the agenda of these groups than our Herp keeping. Likewise with the EPA- they are just like us; some of them are our friends, or our wives or our parents- they were in many cases responsible for nurturing our herp obsession in the first place.

Don't confuse animal lovers with people haters. 

And don't EVER confuse America with Australia. 

RHETORIC is what we hear- communicaion designed to elicit a prescribed response.....confirming once again that we are seen as pawns or just easy targets!!!! .. some of us can smell a rat as well as any of our pets.

Most of us do not think of what we do for love as a $3Bn dollar industry in dire straits in need of our support- for a long time we have been conditioned to believe we are just sands in the hour glass- by the same circles that are now insisting we can change the world.. is there not a hint of irony there ?

...many of us are the antithesis of the militant green ethos- and I find it hard personally to empathise with the high rollers who have for years made serious dollars from our enthusiasm and GENUINE love of reptiles. What does an albino really cost when the basics are averaged out ? What relevance does a foreign market have to anyone but those esteemed breeders whose licence allows them the luxury of import and export ? What is the real loss incurred to the cruisy herper when imports are banned in a foreign land from whom we are unable to import anyway...the only loss I see is to those who have long engaged with the business connections that most of the members here remain completely oblivious to- the herp swapping, the backdoor dealing, the handshakes, the scientific study and swapped emails, photos, old boys club mentality and ritual hybridisation that has been happening for years.

Does the teenager here who owns a pair of spotteds and loves them like children really need to feel as though the SAS are going to drop through the rafters and gas his pets because a few militant senators in the States have finally made steps to ensure their own wildlife is not destroyed by their own lack of hardened regulation in the first place ?

A National body needs to be formed, but that is the end result and supplementary to the desperate need for lots of satellite groups with common interests to be formed FIRST. Then this angellic culture saving national body may be formed from representatives of those smaller groups- it will cut down on the bickering while ensuring that ALL of our interests are given some screen time. But we are struggling to even join a team, let alone get to first base and win the world series (pun most definitely intended). 

And if the so called environmental lobbyists have infiltrated our government to the point that they now have direct control over legislation, why is it so hot today ? They cant even agree on how to get us to catch the bus to work. When was the last Midnight Oil song released ?


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

AnitaBlake said:


> That would be lovely if people were capable of agreeing and respecting the opinions of others enough to take their views into consideration while "representing" them. In this country each state has differing laws, policed by different agencies. Which one should this one group be approaching? Hence (if you must have a group) the idea of a different group for each state.


Do you have any national system of governance overseeing individual states and/or territory? Forgive my ignorance on the matter. Whether yes or no, set up one organization with a chapter in each state. Representatives from each chapter could discuss what is going on within their respective states, which will keep others abreast of possibilities in their states, and so on. We have to assume that state legislators talk to each other, so we should do the same. Communication is key!



moosenoose said:


> Actually, you are correct. The horse has bolted and it won’t really help at all. I also agree that such a huge industry should be protected. I guess when something is on fire; the best way to stop it spreading is aim for the centre. It appears this is what they are trying to achieving getting this legislation passed.


Actually, if you aim for the center of the fire, you'll wind up with a bunch of little fires and be trapped in the middle of them. The best way to contain it is to look at the most vulnerable areas...section by section. Protect them first, then work toward the center.



moosenoose said:


> Anyway, I'm sure I've put my personal view across on the matter. I will look on with interest. Enough from me


Nothing wrong with adding when you've got something to add.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

It's rather funny to see the fear of animal protection organisations from a community that vehemently resisted minimum keeping standards. My opinion is that the NSW model does afford some protection because there will be a legislative control over the animals quality of life. It's a catch 22, the more control exherted on how we keep reptiles removed potential arguments presented by animal welfare organisations.

Damien 

Damien, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The outcome as you see it now differs substantially from what could have been, and results from many, many hours work by all involved, including DECC NPWS staff. As is usually the case, quite a bit of the to & fro arguments were generated by one particular individual who had a poorly informed, idealogical attitude, which had no basis in practical, or even humane, management.

I think participants on both sides of the table were generally quite satisfied with the outcome.

Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Gee Weezer - you do have some issues, too many for me to address here now. I'll just say you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely. You have issues with money and the cost of herps sold by 'elite' (read capable) breeders - that's not even being discussed here. if you read what i said about the development of the NRKA in an earlier post - it will develop exactly as you suggest it should, and I invite you to put your name forward to participate - we don't mind slumming it lol!!! (that was joke by the way...) What was it about the mention of those names that inflamed you. All you have to do is get your group together and organised, work out an agenda and the issues of concern to you, and go from there. We look forward to your input as to how the NRKA should evolve.

I am not offering the slightest criticism of the groups you mention (you will note that I have not mentioned by name one single animal rights organisation - why? - because they can do excellent work when focussed on things that really matter). They are huge and diverse organisations with various agendas, not all of which are obvious, even to you.

I too spent a working lifetime in a bureaucracy linked to wildlife, and have been keeping reptiles for 50 odd years, so you can be as sarcastic and snipy as you like, I know what I'm talking about.

Jamie.


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## herptrader (Dec 11, 2009)

Having read through this thread it is clear to me that one of the biggest problems we face is that organisations like the RSPCA and PETA are run by professionals that have huge propaganda machines at their disposal to drive their income. A significant part of their funding comes from government.

The reptile associations lack the propaganda machines that drive the income and therefore have to rely on limited amateur resources. When push comes to shove we are a very poor cousin!

When was the last time a reptile association called and tried to sell you some crappy pen or requested a donation?


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

Colin said:


> So your a member of PETA wheezer? and hold their meetings in your home?



No mate, I am a donating member of PETA, have played at a few festivals supporting cruelty free living, and have had friends at my home who are also members. Meetings are very rarely, if ever, held in a person's home- the cloak and dagger approach is not well looked upon.

There is not a very strong base for PETA in Australia, but there are many members- if only by volunteering handing out flyers, or making small donations etc.. Of course there are the odd crazy hardliners, as with any group with strong ideals, but that isnt my cup of tea. 

This is.

jamie: I welcome any counter to the argument I put forward. The issue of import/export is directly linked to the example being used to ruffle our feathers into action, is it not...that the USA is banning the import of foreign retics ? is that not the example we are led to belive is standing on our doorstep.... if you would prefer to imply I have personal issues and go all PC on me then my sarcastic and snipey opinions stand unchallenged. 

but I am sure the members here would rather you explain why my points are being barely acknowledged in favour of a couple of personal bunny punches. I expected a well considered and nicely worded response explaining that I may have taken your comments out of context. And no, I do not have issues with spending money- I can PM you a list of sellers whom I have ppaid large sums- or you can read the feedback posts- I just have an issue with sweeping one's financial issues under the carpet while pulling the guilt trip or scare campaign on regular herpers, and in the same breath making references to propoganda machines. In 4 years of being a member here on and off, this would be the first time I have even mentioned my memberships- I suppose that makes me a sleeper cell. I have no doubt that evryone here regardless of agenda has a place in their soul for reptiles- that is why we filled out the membership form in the first place- but if we are going to band together I think all vested interests, conflicts of interest and group allegiances need to be shared. 

Like I just did. Then I could never be accused of hiding _my_ personal agenda.


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 11, 2009)

Weezer said:


> Oh Jamie that just glows with cohesion....."if you dont agree with our elite way of thinking...us experienced herpers...who have bled for your right to bare herps....then stay away, dont talk to us...or we will personally attack you and drop names to remind you how insignificant you are...then drop a subtle reference to the unimportance of your gender...then once again remind you of the invisible threat for which I cannot give you any hard evidence......"
> 
> Oh yeah, this little association is going to bring us all together isn't it- we will be singing kumbaya in no time. This thread is the EXACT reason that the head count you all need to continue making dollars from us is always going to feel patronised and disrespected.
> 
> So we have an American who makes money exporting to his associates backing up the people who make money from importing those herps convincing us we need to act...then we have the oldschool telling us to stay out of it while encouraging us to get into it...then we have educated less experienced keepers being shot down and dismissed when they try to offer an opinion that comes from a well meaning place....... sheesh !!!!


....or maybe it was just an American who sees what's going on here, and wants to warn folks over there about the potential. Maybe what happens there doesn't really matter to people here because if _our _legislation passes, it's a moot point. Maybe some people are just rude and condescending. 




Weezer said:


> Sweeping generalistaions, Innuendo,assuming we all know nothing, assuming all Conservation groups are militant left wingers...
> 
> Come on mate !
> 
> ...


I don't recall anyone assuming ALL animal rights groups were left wing militants, rather I mentioned HSUS and PETA. I have seen blogs where individual PETA members have supported the American bill, and I posted the info on HSUS.

I don't confuse animal lovers with people haters...unless they happen to be one and the same based upon their actions. 

I wouldn't confuse America with Australia....and I would _*NEVER*_ think to make an insult, whether blatant or veiled, along those lines. 




Weezer said:


> Most of us do not think of what we do for love as a $3Bn dollar industry in dire straits in need of our support- for a long time we have been conditioned to believe we are just sands in the hour glass- by the same circles that are now insisting we can change the world.. is there not a hint of irony there ?
> 
> ...many of us are the antithesis of the militant green ethos- and I find it hard personally to empathise with the high rollers who have for years made serious dollars from our enthusiasm and GENUINE love of reptiles. What does an albino really cost when the basics are averaged out ? What relevance does a foreign market have to anyone but those esteemed breeders whose licence allows them the luxury of import and export ? What is the real loss incurred to the cruisy herper when imports are banned in a foreign land from whom we are unable to import anyway...the only loss I see is to those who have long engaged with the business connections that most of the members here remain completely oblivious to- the herp swapping, the backdoor dealing, the handshakes, the scientific study and swapped emails, photos, old boys club mentality and ritual hybridisation that has been happening for years.
> 
> Does the teenager here who owns a pair of spotteds and loves them like children really need to feel as though the SAS are going to drop through the rafters and gas his pets because a few militant senators in the States have finally made steps to ensure their own wildlife is not destroyed by their own lack of hardened regulation in the first place ?


You know what I make off of my snakes? Enough to feed them and house them. I've been getting active here because I love my snakes, and I know that this is just the beginning. 

How is that teenager going to develop that love for his spotteds if he can't keep them in the first place? The senators here are not acting to ensure the safety of our wildlife....they are acting as a matter of politics. There are STATE laws in effect. Ironically, they are in effect in the very state as Senator Bill Nelson, the author of this bill.....banning these animals nationally does not help.



Weezer said:


> A National body needs to be formed, but that is the end result and supplementary to the desperate need for lots of satellite groups with common interests to be formed FIRST. Then this angellic culture saving national body may be formed from representatives of those smaller groups- it will cut down on the bickering while ensuring that ALL of our interests are given some screen time. But we are struggling to even join a team, let alone get to first base and win the world series (pun most definitely intended).
> 
> And if the so called environmental lobbyists have infiltrated our government to the point that they now have direct control over legislation, why is it so hot today ? They cant even agree on how to get us to catch the bus to work. When was the last Midnight Oil song released ?


Use your energy to single out those that are divisive. Weed out the noise from reality and what is in the best interest of your community. You're not struggling to join a team, you're struggling to decide whether or not you should talk about forming a team to join in the first place.

Maybe this planet has always had cyclical climate patterns, and changing that is not as easy as some would suggest.

I miss Midnight Oil.


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> I miss Midnight Oil.



Yeah me too Mike. I miss Peter Garrett moreso. Whatever happened to that guy .....?


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## Sdaji (Dec 11, 2009)

I think we're getting a bit off track here.

Rather than fighting among ourselves we should probably be looking at the clear and present danger in the form of so-called animal welfare groups trying to put a stop to our hobby.

It's really very simple.

Groups such as PETA and RSPCA seek to ban our hobby. If you do not believe me, please, please, contact them youself. By all means, refuse to take my word for it, but if you do so, check for yourself. It only takes an email.

They are behind the current push in the USA, which is a watered down version of their attempt at a complete ban, and if successful they will continue towards that goal. They will use whatever excuse presents itself at any time to put whatever restriction they can on us, and will not stop until there is a complete ban.

Any progress by these organisations against us in any country, particularly the USA, will without a doubt set precedents for similar restrictions elsewhere. It is easy for the Australian branches of these 'welfare' organisations to say "They did it in the USA, surely we should do the same here".

Make no mistake, laws are not always made for the right reasons. The correct decision is not always made. Because of this, we can not simply sit back and relax because we are in the right. That will not protect us, we need to protect ourselves.

We all have our own opinions, and these do vary. However... at the risk of sounding cliquey and elitist, take note of the fact that those with the most knowledge and experience all agree that we face a serious threat. It is only the uninformed who hold the "We'll be okay, it's fine" attitude towards this issue. I know I will be resented for making this statement, but if you are one of the people who are offended, please take the time to consider the situation carefully, learn as much as you can, and then consider what is happening. The reality really is quite clear if you look at this situation objectively.

We need to understand that we should not be fighting about this issue, we need to defend our right to keep native wildlife and not fight amonst ourselves while others are fighting against us.

This thread was initiated by the concerns of the Barkers, arguably the world's leading authority on boas and pythons and undoubtedly they are among the most knowledgable in the world of herpetology and have been around for a long time, pioneering the way, observing and being part of herpetocultural history. When people like this who usually stay quiet make a plea for help, it is a big concern if we turn away, and says something bad about us as a community.

If you care about your right, and my right, to keep reptiles and other native wildlife, and if you care about that right for people around the world, take this issue seriously, or at the very least, please don't attack those who do.


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> How is that teenager going to develop that love for his spotteds if he can't keep them in the first place?



Sorry for the DP, but that is one of my issues, mate- I truly think that kid _already_ has the love- whilst it will contiue to grow, I worry that the carefree spirit that got him there is going to be skewed, mishapen and bent when he/she realises that there is an implicit obligation to take a political stance in order to enjoy something that few of his/her friends and family understand. That is the scary part. And what are we all going to offer other than condescending overtones and insecurity with this kind of debate ?

And you are probably correct- I am struggling with the next jump- because by all accounts it looks like the heirachy has already been formed, the modus operandi drawn up by a select few, and that the rest will just make up the numbers- but what needs to be realised is that some of us lower keepers have some amazing gear beyond breeding our herps to offer the cause. our comparitive lack of experience (as Jamie said, he has 45+ solid years up on most of us) should not be seen to be a hinderence or lower our value...because if a war does kick off; our knowledge of keeping is going to serve us all less than our ability to speak, write rally the troops and argue our point well beyond what our tattooed skin and long hair would suggest.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Weezer, I don't actually know where you're coming from in this debate. Like Anita's comments, some of yours are so obscure it is hard to find a point to discuss. I mean that in all sincerity - it's not a shot at you.

You suggest I should offer a reasoned response to the issues you have raised, well, clarify them and I will. I think your last long post sounded very much like you have a chip on your shoulder about something or other, and is more of a general spray than a focussed criticism of what I have said so far. You were the one who mentioned the "high rollers who made serious dollars." Are you suggesting they exploited their knowledge and dedication to reptiles entirely for money. Get real - not one of them drives a Rolls Royce as far as I know, but they all have personal helicopters if that counts lol! (that too was a joke!)

The people who own the names which have inflamed you so much have, in fact, done monumental amounts of work on behalf of ALL herpers in this country in the past 20-30 years, and sure, some of them have gained privileges because of that work. But any privileges gained are often the result, not only of hard work, but of huge financial investment as well, always without any guarantee of recovering costs, let alone getting any profit. The often squawked Rough Scaled Python story is one which comes to mind - do you think the almost 20 trips to the remote Kimberley coast, and 3 year+ negotiating with CALM costs nothing? John has made very little from the RSP exercise himself, but he has broken hugely valuable ground bureaucratically and provided for us an example of dedication and technical excellence. The RSP story is unique in the world.

You have made some assumptions about how the NRKA will develop and operate, and who it will benefit. I assure you your assumptions are wrong on all points. There are no vested interests trying to grab the agenda, simply because the agenda has not been set. And why is that? Because there has been no herp community discussion at this stage. So if you want to be involved and you have a contribution to make, please accept this invitation to get your thoughts together.

jamieJ


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 11, 2009)

I will definately support Team Weezer. Definately one of the best posts i have read ever! The comeback from the oposition in the debate was quite anticlimactic!



Weezer said:


> Oh Jamie that just glows with cohesion....."if you dont agree with our elite way of thinking...us experienced herpers...who have bled for your right to bare herps....then stay away, dont talk to us...or we will personally attack you and drop names to remind you how insignificant you are...then drop a subtle reference to the unimportance of your gender...then once again remind you of the invisible threat for which I cannot give you any hard evidence......"
> 
> Oh yeah, this little association is going to bring us all together isn't it- we will be singing kumbaya in no time. This thread is the EXACT reason that the head count you all need to continue making dollars from us is always going to feel patronised and disrespected.
> 
> ...


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Another note, and a short one - I've actually got other things to do today...

Weezer, never assume that I discount the knowledge of any herper, based on the time they have been keeping. That is unfair and just plain wrong. I know stuff that you don't know, you know stuff that I don't know, it's as simple as that. You have also assumed that the 'old guard' , the 'select few' as you call them, is taking control, and for selfish reasons. Wrong on both counts again. You are the one calling yourself a 'lower keeper' - whatever that means. 

The NRKA has to start somewhere... I'm sorry it didn't start with you at the epicentre, but now's your chance to become involved.

Jamie


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

yeah we could definitely do this all day- i will put a post up, then you will tell me i am jibbering, and feign a lack of understanding, then tell me to get it together, then attempt to mistranslate my post to imply I insulted this country's most respected keepers, whose books I own, whose lines I keep; whose contribution is not in duspute by me or anyone else here...

anyone who reads this can re-read my posts to see I did not tar those pioneers, who I respect deeply, with any dirty brush and that your arguments are personal and evasive. By my opinion that you used their credibility to add weight to your argument, and then imply that by my not agreeing to *your* fascist ethos I am somehow disrespecting *their* work......Wow. just Wow.

I am going to go with Sdaji's respectful suggestion and walk away from your attempts to discredit me by implying such .....

seeya mate.


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## zulu (Dec 11, 2009)

*re Banning*

Got to admitt it was a very good post by wheezer,ide still like to see the NRKA running though,led Pete Jonson and Jamie Stuart Pythoninfite,they are the Joe Tripodi and Eddie Obeid of the NSW herp scene.


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## Chimera (Dec 11, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Damien
> 
> Damien, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The outcome as you see it now differs substantially from what could have been, and results from many, many hours work by all involved, including DECC NPWS staff. As is usually the case, quite a bit of the to & fro arguments were generated by one particular individual who had a poorly informed, idealogical attitude, which had no basis in practical, or even humane, management.
> 
> ...


I believe those involved in the consultative process did so in a productive manner. My comments are based (funnily enough) on some of the newer keepers who carried on in public forums before the standards were even finalised.

I have no doubt that getting where we are now was an arduous process and in each of my posts I have made the point that this should be an example to be taken to other states of herpers working with legislative bodies. I also think that the fact that key members of the NRKA were involved in this process means that they will be well placed to take this model to other states.

Damien


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 11, 2009)

It sounds to me like a better strength would lay in an organisation that collectively represented sectors of the community keeping any native wildlife; after all, I am sure the bird keepers (and perhaps fish keepers?) would outnumber the reptile community.


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## zulu (Dec 11, 2009)

*re Banning*



PilbaraPythons said:


> It sounds to me like a better strength would lay in an organisation that collectively represented sectors of the community keeping any native wildlife; after all, I am sure the bird keepers (and perhaps fish keepers?) would outnumber the reptile community.



The NRKA is already here,mabe you can make a WANRKA :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Dave, that's something that has already been suggested by a few others interested in these issues. It is indeed a very good idea I think, and the suggestion was made that all native animal keepers (mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, inverts and even plant enthusiasts) should organise a national conference to discuss our concerns about the status of our wildlife generally.

I indicated in my Scales & Tails articles recently that native animals are in critical decline in much of the country, some explainable, some for no obvious reason. But this is a topic for another thread.

Jamie.


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## Twin_Rivers (Dec 11, 2009)

How come so many of you call your pets Native Wildlife?
My reptiles are all captive born from captive born from captive born and apart from our Blue Tongue none of the are native to this area. There is nothing Wild about any of them. We have a cat we found that was feral as a kitten that is more wild than any of my Reptiles. If the herp community keep these animals and call them wildlife it, to me anyway, conjures images of people out catching animals as pets not animals bred in capivity specially for the purpose of being a pet.


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## Sdaji (Dec 11, 2009)

Twin_Rivers said:


> How come so many of you call your pets Native Wildlife?
> My reptiles are all captive born from captive born from captive born and apart from our Blue Tongue none of the are native to this area. There is nothing Wild about any of them. We have a cat we found that was feral as a kitten that is more wild than any of my Reptiles. If the herp community keep these animals and call them wildlife it, to me anyway, conjures images of people out catching animals as pets not animals bred in capivity specially for the purpose of being a pet.



It's an interesting topic, I agree, 'wildlife' is probably not the best term for captive bred animals and I would prefer them to be called something else. However, the RSPCA, PETA, etc, wish to ban the keeping of these animals, whatever we choose to call them. Moving away from the term 'wildlife' would be a small step in the right direction in terms of public opinion, although for some reason whenever this suggestion is made among reptile keepers, most of them are very protective of the term wildlife and want to maintain the 'wildlife' status of their animals. To me, 'wildlife' is in the wild, and captive bred animals are captive animals.


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## [email protected] (Dec 11, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> Hahahahahaha!!!!!!! You crack me up!!!!!!! This site really needs a "censored" smilie, or something to more accurately convey exactly what it is that I'm feeling right now.
> 
> Guess what we have problems with here in the US. Cane toads and feral cats! Guess what are far more widespread than snakes. Cane toads and feral cats! Guess what this bill does NOT affect. CANE TOADS AND FERAL CATS!!!!
> 
> Your thought processes are dangerous for the Australian reptile community. Ask me how I know. Never mind....I'll tell you. People over here have been saying for years that it "*wont happen*". If you think this is about the impact on the environment, you are sadly mistaken....it has very little to do with the actual problem. It is centered around powerful lobbying groups that consist of eco-terrorists funded by good hearted folks who think they are donating money to help poor, cute, neglected cats and dogs. They think wrong!



wont happen to me:lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

They are regarded as fauna by licensing authorities Australia wide, so we have no other way of describing them, regardless of their provenance. I do agree with you though, captive bred reptiles have no real place in conservation, they can't be released, and in my opinion should not be subject to the licensing regimes they currently are.

On another note, it is interesting how these debates start out as serious discussions about serious topics, and degenerate into personal slanging matches. My basic reason for coming here to discuss this issue was to add information that may prove useful or helpful, and to keep fellow herpers in the picture from another perspective. I'm not going to offer any defence to what has been said about me, because none is needed. Weezer has clearly taken a dislike to me for some reason, knows far more about me than I do about him... but good luck to him. I should point out that this isn't a competition, or at least I didn't think it was. The discussion has trivialised a potentially very serious situation.

I'll post more details about the NRKA very soon, and you can form your own opinions.

Jamie.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 11, 2009)

It about time we got a website purely to bring together all these different groups as a collective body.
I would be more than willing to pay for its construction.


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## krefft (Dec 11, 2009)

The energy that seems to be spent on bickering and infighting while this organisation is still in it's infancy is ridiculous. We are playing in to the hands of those opposing us.

I think we are all in agreement that there needs to be a body representing us. The reason that Simon/Jamie/John etc are involved are because they are the ones that got off their backsides and decided to do something about it. 

I suggest if you are unhappy with the way it's currently being handled offer some clear ideas that can be discussed and debated. 
There has been plenty written on what people don't like about it. I would be interested to hear what you do like instead.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Thank you Chris!

Jamie.


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## jahan (Dec 11, 2009)

May be the NRKA needs some one that every body knows, some that the general public likes and respects, like a Dr Harry who has featured reptiles on his show many times over the years?


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## Doc (Dec 11, 2009)

I just got a chance to catch up on the last 5 pages of this thread. It seems to me there has been some worthwhile debate and perhaps a little chest beating. I don't see the formation of a national group as particularly difficult, not funding it - the difficult part is to get experienced, capable, effective, energetic people to commit the time and effort required to make it a success. 

Whether you believe worrying about our rights to keep reptiles is scare mongering or not, there are many State laws and restrictions that are crazy and it would be good to have a national group to provide pressure/input to correct some of the nonsense. It would also be good to have a lobby group that can explain to our law makers the very positive impact our hobby has had on educating Australians attitudes towards reptiles which are a major component of the Australian fauna and most terrestrial ecosystems.

As suggested by Dave, a group that could come together to represent the keeping of all Australian fauna would be of benefit. However, reptile keeping has its uniques and is usually a poor cousin in regards to keeping when compared to other groups like birds. I think we need to be able to look after ourselves first without the complication of all wildlife.

In the final analysis, despite the bickering and feuding etc, I'm an optimist that there are enough of us that care for the hobby, that will be willing to sacrifice the time to make a difference and form a national group. I am not as confident that in the long run we will be able to maintain our rights, but one thing I do feel certain of it that without the former the risk of the later will be greatly increased. Our hobby is in its teens at best and maybe a national group will help it grow and mature.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 11, 2009)

Jamie, I will wait for your upcoming explainations regarding the structure and prety much overall outline of this latest incarnation of the NRKA, before questioning it, and/or making any judgements. I think everyone should step back until then, then, at the very least focus on real issues rather than inventing them. 

Though Jamie, for a while now this ball has been set in motion, and apart from a fair dose of rhetoric, we, the herp keeping public, have absolutely no idea of the agendas and constitution of the group that proposes to represent us. Stop treating us as Mushrooms.... keeping us in the dark and feeding on bull crap.... If nothing, the aimless argumentative nature of this thread, must have bought to light that the herp keeping public need to be kept in the loop, as we are the NRKA's lifeblood.... the excuse of being short of time and such, hell, we can be put on hold by countless beaurocratic departments.... though heed my words, I wont support an entity that doesnt keep me informed, and Im guessing there are many others in the same boat. Thus far the ball has been dropped, I mean, for all we know, you dont even have a ball to play with.....

I more fear being represented poorly, than not being represented at all....


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 11, 2009)

Nobody, as far as I know, is being kept in the dark. If the NRKA fails to to float because it doesn't get the support of the herp keeping community, so be it, but trying to tailor an organisation to suit all members is a difficult thing.

If it turns out that those who are doing what they can to ensure the security of the hobby are subjected to insults and threats, then you will have the system inflicting change on you whether you like it or not. 

I'm not making excuses Ihaveherps. I am not accountable to you or anyone else for my time at this stage, I will do what I can when I can, at a time that suits me, and the same goes for other members of the founder team. There is nothing to keep you informed of at the moment either, so you are not being left out of the loop. 

Whether you join as a paid member and support the NRKA is up to you.

Jamie.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 11, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I will do what I can when I can, at a time that suits me, and the same goes for other members of the founder team.



doesnt paraphrasing suck......

funny though.... Im sure most of us dont want to be represented at your leisure... if the boot is too big, maybe we need someone with bigger feet!


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## tooninoz (Dec 11, 2009)

The thread has morphed into a discussion regarding the NRKA, and understandably. Some people are upset that the proposed committee is stacked with 'elites' and that it doesn't seem to involve the 'plebs' and it's sad that people can't seem to move beyond that?

What does it matter if you weren't invited on to the committee? It's an association with a committee, and you'll have your chance to vote in/out the members of your choice. I'd much rather have that than the disjointed mess that currently exists.

If you don't like it, don't join it.


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## zulu (Dec 11, 2009)

*re Banning*



tooninoz said:


> The thread has morphed into a discussion regarding the NRKA, and understandably. Some people are upset that the proposed committee is stacked with 'elites' and that it doesn't seem to involve the 'plebs' and it's sad that people can't seem to move beyond that?
> 
> What does it matter if you weren't invited on to the committee? It's an association with a committee, and you'll have your chance to vote in/out the members of your choice. I'd much rather have that than the disjointed mess that currently exists.
> 
> If you don't like it, don't join it.



Basically ide support Doc Rock as he can put an idea over without sounding too arrogant,its a really important quality when your dealing with people,some need to learn how to deflate the head so they can fit through the door IMO


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 11, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> doesnt paraphrasing suck......
> 
> funny though.... Im sure most of us dont want to be represented at your leisure... if the boot is too big, maybe we need someone with bigger feet!


 
Most of us?  Seriously though, even I, as a very inexperienced "mushroom" have had a chance to speak with John Wiegel about this in person. If you feel you can offer something useful to this process, then do so. None of these "elites" of which you speak are living on the moon, contact them, put some effort in, write something up, just do something instead of moaning. I am certain that the proof will be in the pudding as far as the NRKA goes. If it builds a membership and can affect change, it is because it's members got involved. Of course this organization does not have mandatory membership, you are more than free to do nothing at all if you feel that is the best course of action for you.



tooninoz said:


> The thread has morphed into a discussion regarding the NRKA, and understandably. Some people are upset that the proposed committee is stacked with 'elites' and that it doesn't seem to involve the 'plebs' and it's sad that people can't seem to move beyond that?
> 
> What does it matter if you weren't invited on to the committee? It's an association with a committee, and you'll have your chance to vote in/out the members of your choice. I'd much rather have that than the disjointed mess that currently exists.
> 
> If you don't like it, don't join it.


 
Well said Tooninoz. It would appear to be stacked with 'elites' for the simple fact that these 'elites' have gotten off their butts to do something about it. Good on them I say. Given the exponential growth of this hobby in recent years, this sort of organisation could go a long way to facilitating the herp community's voices being heard by some of the right people when those voices need hearing. Quite frankly, no governmental institution or otherwise, is going to listen to inane whining on an internet forum, they will want information and dialog from people with degrees, decades of experience, and professional backgrounds in the field in which they represent. What part of this is difficult to understand?

To borrow from Krefft's sig: "No one has built a statue to honour a critic." (lol, this will get mis-interpreted!)


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## derekm (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't know how the NRKA is constituted, but here's how I think it should be constituted for maximum effect and reasonable representation. No original thinking here - this is the way most representative bodies that need to work at a national, state and local level are constituted, I think.

It should represent itself as the peak national body representing reptile keepers and deal with issues at a national level.
It should have state and territory based affiliates, not members. Individual affiliates should be affiliates by virtue of their membership of an affilliated club/association/society (see below).
It should be composed of an executive committee including a president, secretary, treasurer, state/territory delegates and special purpose office holders as required.
There should be similarly composed state/territory associations (for simplicity NSWRKA, VRKA, WARKA, etc) that should be affiliates of, and elect delegates to, ARKA.
These state/territory associations should represent themselves as the peak state bodies representing reptile keepers and therefore deal with issues at a state/territory level. (IMO, state-level associations are necessary because much of the law governing reptile keeping is state law, not federal law.) 
Individual herpetological and reptile keeping clubs/associations/societies would choose to affiliate with the state RKAs and members of affilliated clubs would pay an affiliation levy to the state RKA (through their club) to cover admin costs and establish whatever 'fighting funds' are required.
Affiliated clubs/associations/societies would elect delegates to their state associations.
The state RKAs would affiliate with the ARKA and would pay a percentage of the affiliation levies they received to the ARKA to cover admin costs and establish whatever 'fighting funds' are required.

Obviously, there is a lot more detail to be worked out, but this is the basic structure that I think would be most successful and representative of members/affiliates.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 11, 2009)

Snake whisperer.... I will await for the Nrka, to show their hand, though from Pythoninfinites post, he states he is not accountable, so will inform us at his leisure, he negated to explain that there have already been memberships accepted, does he not feel accountable to those who are already behind the organisation?

" this sort of organisation could go a long way to facilitating the herp community's voices being heard by some of the right people when those voices need hearing. Quite frankly, no governmental institution or otherwise, is going to listen to inane whining on an internet forum, they will want information and dialog from people with degrees, decades of experience, and professional backgrounds in the field in which they represent. What part of this is difficult to understand?"

Seeing as though you are obviously in contact with JW, ask him what his catch cry in the recent rounds with NSW DEC about the "Draft Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles" was.... I will let you in, it was "GIVE THEM NOTHING" , he chose to not communicate but stone wall, not a good way of building a rapport with a governing body.... even though the outcome of the saga was good for the short term, being difficult to deal with does not inspire confidence with the powers that be, who actually invited representatives from the private sector to be involved in the process.... it will be naieve to assume that continued actions on our behalf in a similar manner will be not taken in to account in the future, and our ability to have a say on the future of the hobby may be taken out of our hands.

Honestly lets leave this here... and await more information.... dont call me out, or I may colour more opinions before they have their chances to make their own ....

I am in no way against the NRKA as a body to act on our behalf, more-so about how, if in the wrong hands could adversely impact us. Im not stating that I would even be whole-heartedly against JW at the helm, nor anyone else, as a democratic body should be metered in any actions taken, as if from the very beginning, this latest incarnation of the NRKA is given birth on the right foot, then credability will ensue, though a negative start, may never be repaired... Im prepared to give it a chance, I just want to see the cards.


And while im here.... Derekm.... your brilliant... democratic... my vision is similar....


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## krefft (Dec 11, 2009)

Great post Derekm. That has been the most constructive so far.
If members need to be financial, why not include it in the purchase price of a snake among the commercial breeders.
Ive no idea what membership will cost....say $20 for arguments sake. If every snake sold by Southern X, Snake Ranch etc had the price jacked up by $20 and the purchase of the snake came with membership to the ARKA we could start to get a healthy membership pretty quickly.
I just thought it's time we started to throw some ideas around.


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## derekm (Dec 11, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> And while im here.... Derekm.... your brilliant... democratic... my vision is similar....


Thanks, ihaveherps but, as I posted, no original thinking - just a description of what works elsewhere for similarly vulnerable hobbies.


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## Sdaji (Dec 11, 2009)

Wow, just a few minutes after I had given up on this thread being of any use, things seem back on track. Maybe this thread can be productive after all.

A range of options will need to be looked at, but what you have described, Derek, looks like a good one to consider.

My concern is that the reptile world being as it is, positions of power are often abused by people with less than stirling actions and intentions. It would be good if there was some safety net to prevent this, although I must admit I can't think of a good way to facilitate this. Perhaps someone has ideas.


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## derekm (Dec 11, 2009)

krefft said:


> Great post Derekm. That has been the most constructive so far.
> If members need to be financial, why not include it in the purchase price of a snake among the commercial breeders.
> Ive no idea what membership will cost....say $20 for arguments sake. If every snake sold by Southern X, Snake Ranch etc had the price jacked up by $20 and the purchase of the snake came with membership to the ARKA we could start to get a healthy membership pretty quickly.
> I just thought it's time we started to throw some ideas around.


Because I'm not comfortable with ARKA having members directly, I would amend that approach slightly to "the purchase of the snake came with a $20 payment to the state RKA representing the purchaser's affiliation fee; and the purchaser received a receipt for the affiliation fee that they could show to any club they joined as proof that their affiliation fee had been paid. Alternatively if the purchaser could show the vendor proof of current financial membership of an ARKA affiliated club or a receipt for an affiliation fee paid earlier in that financial year, the $20 levy would not be charged twice in the same financial year."

Of course, if commercial suppliers want to increase their prices a little to help ARKA establish a fighting fund more quickly that they otherwise might, that's a great idea too!


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## derekm (Dec 11, 2009)

Sdaji said:


> My concern is that the reptile world being as it is, positions of power are often abused by people with less than stirling actions and intentions. It would be good if there was some safety net to prevent this, although I must admit I can't think of a good way to facilitate this. Perhaps someone has ideas.


That's my concern too. My experience is that allowing the peak bodies to have affiliate organisations that elect delegates, but not to have members themselves, keeps the aims of the peak bodies closely aligned with their affiliates - on whom they will depend for their funding under the model I suggested.

It is not possible to keep potential abusers of power out of organisations. The best that can be done is to limit their ability to do damage and to limit the attractiveness of the organisation to such people by having strong checks and balances.


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## derekm (Dec 11, 2009)

Oh - one more thing I forgot. We should invite the amphibian keepers in too!!!


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## RemoverAccount (Dec 11, 2009)

you cant have it both ways people - you either protect native species and breed within this integrity - or you try and support a money making venture making bastardised versions of our beautiful native snakes... it seems the later is already well entrenched here, and in reality we arent too far away from the US after all.

If you are serious about not only keeping native herps but protecting their integrity there are a few hard decisions to make. I for one cant see those needed decisions from happening here... too much else to gain and at the end of the day whats said in here only partly explains the reality of the market that is herps in this country... even the novice collector has a market share and vested interest in bastardisation... while this crap continues to go on - your 'hobby' will always be at a disadvantage!! 

Talk is cheap... and you cant have it both ways.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 11, 2009)

Derekm.... jeebus throw your hat in the ring for Gods sake, Im liking the cut of your jib....

Although im not at all fond of the membership by animal purchase idea.... there has to be an option, although it would assist the membership drive, forcing people to have a say is wrong, and names would win. I would hate to see the day when someone without a instanly recognisable name lose their seat, to a less worthy candidate whom was more widely known.


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## derekm (Dec 11, 2009)

Chickenlover said:


> you cant have it both ways people - you either protect native species and breed within this integrity - or you try and support a money making venture making bastardised versions of our beautiful native snakes... it seems the later is already well entrenched here, and in reality we arent too far away from the US after all.
> 
> If you are serious about not only keeping native herps but protecting their integrity there are a few hard decisions to make. I for one cant see those needed decisions from happening here... too much else to gain and at the end of the day whats said in here only partly explains the reality of the market that is herps in this country... even the novice collector has a market share and vested interest in bastardisation... while this crap continues to go on - your 'hobby' will always be at a disadvantage!!
> 
> Talk is cheap... and you cant have it both ways.


You could be right, but what leads me to believe that it is possible to have it both ways is that the native bird keeping community has been around (legitimately) for much longer than we have, is much larger than we are, and they have been having it both ways for many years. There are breeders who specialise in morph parrots and breeders trying to keep their lines as close to 'wild-type' as possible. (It is even still possible, without too much trouble, to buy 'wild-type' captive-bred budgies!) The native bird keeping community have the same quasi-religious 'pure vs. morph' arguments that we regularly see on this forum, but they have been having them for a lot longer.

Also interesting to note, and possibly relevant to this discussion, is that the law governing export of natives and import of exotics is the same or very similar for birds and reptiles.


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## krefft (Dec 11, 2009)

I would have thought that the further away we got from pure/wild type the less of an argument there would be for those wanting us to leave them in the wild.


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

Derek, you reasonable devil. You are definitely on track. What stands out as the major hurdle, at least in these fledgling stages of discussion, is the divisiveness that unfortunately is not going to change overnight, if ever. 

So the question is: how do we unify a large group whilst watering down the effects of our differing opinion, without watering down the effect itself. And obviously that answer is by bringing together the reptile and bird communities; the latter being more versed and slightly ahead in regards to legislative bureaucracy. We are then, by definition and design, going to have to consider opinions from those members from outside the herp community who have something to offer in terms of direction without having a direct interest in the financial result. 

A Pay for play concept (snake sales incl reg fees) could so easily be distorted and corrupted, given that it will hand comtrol and incentive to those whose interests I have highlighted as already ebing dubious- the incentive will not be for us as consumers to buy herps; but for the high volume breeders to gather the numbers- it can serve no use at all. We already see in various guises how a little ad money, sponsorship dollars, or friends with media interests can equate to skewed accounts and stifled opinions... the concept of generating membership numbers through large scale operations is putting all our eggs in the same commercially driven basket.

Derek is spot on with his structural model- the key will be to implemenet guidelines and a voting/decision/disciplinary process that gives power to no one person, group or demographic. 
I too believe that we can have it both ways- because those of us who are wild-type groupies are not going to sway, just as those with Jag$ in their sights will not budge. So there HAS to be room for all of us, because if any one ideal is presented as legit, then it will alwys be detrimental to the other ideal,and therefore the bigger picture.

Unavoidable is the political heaving that will occur, which some have suggested is not productive. I think this thread was productive several pages ago- but what is obvious is that the frontman for this "movement" for want of a better term, is going to need to be diplomatic- he is going to have the hobby's interests at heart- be a people person and not a person who reverts to insulting or denigrating his brethren, whilst being open minded and ballsy enough to tell it like it is in the face of unrest. A couple of people come to mind; and they are not those prophets who are self-prophecising before our eyes. All the knowledge in the world doesn't change one's character; and with such passionate and polar views on what is best and who should run the game; the big dog is going to need to be the most honest, diplomatic, fair but firm leader the world has ever seen. Self appointed idols, hypocrites, hardliners and those who are here for the glory need not apply; after reading through this thread it is clear that the movement is nowhere near as advanced as some would have us believe, yet it is in some people's interests to imply otherwise to ensure they get a nice piece of the action when the dirty work gets done. 

So.... let us assume that nothing has been done to date. Start fresh, take ideas; collate them, present them and formulate a working model. Then we will see who is interested in self-gratification, and who realy gives an f about the hobby, and the people.

THEN we can decide who gets to be God. And hopefully be the time this process is ready to graduate to the next- the false idols will be found out and allow the real Slim Shady to please stand up.


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## krefft (Dec 11, 2009)

Weezer your saying alot without actually saying anything. 
Your clearly intelligent, why not offer some actual ideas rather than just a running commentary on "Self appointed idols, hypocrites, hardliners and those who are here for the glory.... " 
Get over it and offer something useful.


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## Weezer (Dec 11, 2009)

Weezer said:


> We are...going to have to consider opinions from those members from outside the herp community who have something to offer in terms of direction ....
> 
> ....Derek is spot on with his structural model- . ...
> 
> So.... let us assume that nothing has been done ..Start fresh, take ideas; collate them, present them and formulate a working model. .



yeah...ummm...sorry mate I will start working on your 2000 page thesis right now.

Sorry for quoting myself, I figured you must have missed my last post...and I couldnt find any ideas in your posts to quote. But it will be sweet to hear your ideas, Kreftttttty.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

Weezer said:


> So the question is: how do we unify a large group whilst watering down the effects of our differing opinion, without watering down the effect itself. And obviously that answer is by bringing together the reptile and bird communities; the latter being more versed and slightly ahead in regards to legislative bureaucracy. We are then, by definition and design, going to have to consider opinions from those members from outside the herp community who have something to offer in terms of direction without having a direct interest in the financial result.


The model I described earlier covered a 'vertical' affiliation process. Our relationship with the bird keeping communities (let's face it - parrot keepers, pigeon keepers and poultry keepers have few common interests) may best be covered by a 'horizontal' affiliation process. This may be no more than a loose agreement to share information regularly and openly, co-operate and share costs where a particular campaign suits both our interests, and not get in each other's way. They point is that it needs to be set up in a manner that encourages co-operation and discourages power plays.



Weezer said:


> Unavoidable is the political heaving that will occur, which some have suggested is not productive. I think this thread was productive several pages ago- but what is obvious is that the frontman for this "movement" for want of a better term, is going to need to be diplomatic- he is going to have the hobby's interests at heart- be a people person and not a person who reverts to insulting or denigrating his brethren, whilst being open minded and ballsy enough to tell it like it is in the face of unrest. A couple of people come to mind; and they are not those prophets who are self-prophecising before our eyes. All the knowledge in the world doesn't change one's character; and with such passionate and polar views on what is best and who should run the game; the big dog is going to need to be the most honest, diplomatic, fair but firm leader the world has ever seen. Self appointed idols, hypocrites, hardliners and those who are here for the glory need not apply; after reading through this thread it is clear that the movement is nowhere near as advanced as some would have us believe, yet it is in some people's interests to imply otherwise to ensure they get a nice piece of the action when the dirty work gets done.


Defining a 'frontman' in the model I described could be interesting. One detail I omitted is that I see the executives on the ARKA and state RKA committees (president, secretary, treasurer and special purpose officers) as running each organisation's processes and contributing to policy discussions, but having no voting power on those committees. All voting power would be vested in the elected delegates representing the affiliated clubs at the state level and representing the states at the national level.

The president of an organisation set up this way is the obvious 'frontman' (unless the voting delegates decided to elect a a non-voting PR officer to perform this role) but, in either case, this 'frontman' - a non-voting executive - would be limited in their official capacity to publicly promoting only those positions supported by the voting delegates. Checks and balances - gotta love them!

As before - no original ideas - just what I have seen work in similar contexts.


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## Colin (Dec 12, 2009)

the model put forward by derekm in post 161 is the same direction I was thinking. although one of the things Im hoping this NRKA can achieve is to help bring in a national licencing system, I feel each state should have representatives to cover their members state interests as well as combining for national interests. each local area reptile/herp club society is probably a good way to assemble members and have a delegate to voice their opinions. these delegattes can meet at a state level to discuss issues and then have a state delegate (or two) to represent them at the national level. the national level could be made up of these state delegates and the experienced keepers, academics etc. 

I agree we need to be kept informed of whats going on and that is exactly what our state representatives will be doing and passing on information to their state local herp society members. - just throwing some more ideas and thoughts into this thread.

Im not comfortable with some breeders placing a NRKA surcharge on animals they sell.. we cant force people to join.. but we should encourage them to do so willingly. as ive suggested a starting point at local herp and reptile societies, why dont we start there? and have a surcharge on membership that also includes NRKA. 



Weezer said:


> Derek is spot on with his structural model- the key will be to implemenet guidelines and a voting/decision/disciplinary process that gives power to no one person, group or demographic.
> I too believe that we can have it both ways- because those of us who are wild-type groupies are not going to sway, just as those with Jag$ in their sights will not budge. So there HAS to be room for all of us, because if any one ideal is presented as legit, then it will alwys be detrimental to the other ideal,and therefore the bigger picture.



I also agree there room for both of these groups (pure and morphs) and I have a foot in both camps. petty bickering over these issues is counterproductive and only causing division in the hobby at a time we need to unite together. I suggest these issues be put aside and respect that we all have different views on some issues. It would help though weezer  to leave the $ off jags as for some its not about money, its about the animals. sarcasm like this detracts from an excellent post and some intelligent ideas. cheers.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 12, 2009)

To my way of thinking a self appointed group no matter how much experience they may or may not collectively have is starting way behind the eight ball.

Much better to ask for nominations for those positions in each state and the list of nominees get put to a vote by herp societies throughout the country.

As a collective voice, herp keepers are by far and away a very small minority and I see more value in trying to align with the birdos. At least that way we have a bigger voice,as well as being able to draw on their past experiences.


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## Weezer (Dec 12, 2009)

You're right Colin, I have no doubts that alot of Jag devotees are not thinking dollar signs, and it would be hypocritical for me to suggest that is not the case when I have a pretty pair of milky Darwins in my living room with a care factor of zero regarding their future worth as breeders. I just think they look hot. 

The biggest worry is,as Colin said; we need to be uniting right NOW- but the reality is that Australian herpetology is at a sensitive crossroads - on the horizon right now are Jags, future Albino strains and questionable methods for obtining their colour, no doubt, and a furious debate over hybridisation- and funnily enough, we (I) are the first to buy a snake based on aesthetic pleasure, and the first to destroy the notion of mongrels/hybrids/intergades/morphs (choose your own adventure there) and RP's when their worth will be measured in aesthetic terms before the first _legal_ Jag Movement Advice gets processed- and I am guilty as hell in that regard... But not beyond admitting it either.

So any model we come up with needs to take this into account- the_ "changing face"_- because as we have seen in the last 5 years alone- the shape of the hobby is going to barely resemble it's current form in 5 years, let alone ten- so the model in place is going to have to have a little flexibility- and THAT is the grey area we often argue over.

But with upstanding contributors like Derek, and longtime mebers like ihaveherps prepared to keep it real, all we are missing is that individual who is free of conflicts of interest, educated and accessible enough to be the PR face of the movement, and with enough time to turn their life upside down in the name of the hobby. We could all add our own criteria to the list and never find the truly perfect specimen.

So then we need to start listing the perfect weapon and then shape it until we have the best version we are capable of, right ? With any luck it might resemble the original blueprint enough to satisfy everyone, even if in small doses.

This room isn't so hot anymore.


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## Colin (Dec 12, 2009)

good points rams.. I also feel we would benefit from being aligned with the bird keepers but think we need to have some sort of structure in place first that represents reptile keepers before any alignment could be reached. to approach the birdos as a group of dissjointed rabble that cant agree to disagree on some issues and unite as a whole, but want to join up with them to ride on their shirt tails for safety in numbers wouldnt be taken seriously or on board. we first need to sort ourselves out and establish some sort of national group with a structured heirachy with some integrity, direction and stability before we could approach another group to seek some sort of mutual collective power. 

and your right weezer, its going to be difficult or near impossible to please all the people all the time, and yes we need to have some aims and policies in place for now and the future. but first we need to start with a base and the first brick.. it wont be perfect and we will probably make mistakes early, but if the group and the members are tolerant of each other, willing to be a little flexible for the greater good and learn from any mistakes and keep moving forward then i think all the trimmings and much of the finer details can and will come later.. we need to start with a base structure without too much attention to fine details and start to grow from this position. to debate too many of the finer issues first in my opinion will just create division and stop the whole thing from starting and moving forward. 

for those that are interested in the american situation.. 
Bill Nelson, U.S. Senator from Florida: Media Release: Key Senate panel passes import ban on giant snakes



> Key Senate panel passes import ban on giant snakes
> December 10, 2009
> WASHINGTON, D.C. - A key Senate panel today approved Sen. Bill Nelson’s bill to ban nine giant constrictor snakes, sending a strong signal that more may be done to safeguard U.S. wildlife and natural resources. The measure now goes to the full Senate for a vote.


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## zulu (Dec 12, 2009)

*re Banning*



Colin said:


> the model put forward by derekm in post 161 is the same direction I was thinking. although one of the things Im hoping this NRKA can achieve is to help bring in a national licencing system, I feel each state should have representatives to cover their members state interests as well as combining for national interests. each local area reptile/herp club society is probably a good way to assemble members and have a delegate to voice their opinions. these delegattes can meet at a state level to discuss issues and then have a state delegate (or two) to represent them at the national level. the national level could be made up of these state delegates and the experienced keepers, academics etc.
> 
> I agree we need to be kept informed of whats going on and that is exactly what our state representatives will be doing and passing on information to their state local herp society members. - just throwing some more ideas and thoughts into this thread.
> 
> ...



A national licensing system wont happen colin but what a national body lobby group could do is to make singular representation on the behalf of the many societys in australia of issues that have been placed before it. The single most pressing issue is the issueing of takers licenses from the wild,what can happen realistically is that evidence can be brought to influence the outcomes regarding species to be taken on and off takers lists. The way it goes at the moment from what ive seen on the various websites,the WA bhps,womas and stimsons pythons are being sold off at low prices while collecting of wild individuals continues.Ime not against getting some founder stock to start breeding programmes but calm is getting it wrong in my oppinion and ive let them know how i feel about ,they may pay more attention to a collecting representation.At best you may onley infuence descion makers in state governments to make the systems they precide over more user friendly by ironing out the bumps.


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## wokka (Dec 12, 2009)

The legislated control of giant constricting snakes in the US seems a sensible move to me.
A more specific licencing system in some parts of Australia would seem sensible also, but based upon genuine risk rather than fear mongering. Hopefully we will see an Industry Association develop which can harness passion and experience whilst still maintaining the diplomacy needed so as not to offend or "turn off" the powers that be. Perhaps the services of a professional lobbiest may be worth considering as passion and experience dont always correlate with diplomacy.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 12, 2009)

Derekm, your suggestions are totally in line with what was envisaged by the 'core group'. The 'core group' that seems to be the problem at the moment was only established because it was the same group of people who were negotiating with NPWS this past year or more, hence we were together in the same room on a few occasions, and we have to start somewhere. The NRKA has a lot of evolving to do, it was never envisaged that it happen behind closed doors, if anyone has constructive comments or suggestions, they are most welcome to participate. 

The debate has become distorted, the personal attacks on me are offensive and misplaced, but I'm a survivor. I'm here because of my love of, and 50 year involvement, with reptiles, both professionally and privately. if whatever I may bring to the table doesn't suit the majority of members at any time, then I'm sure they will have an opportunity to remove me from any position of influence. But I'm sorry Ihaveherps, I doubt whether anyone will be available to be your personal representative 24/7, unless you are prepared to pay handsomely.

The money referred to by this member changed hands long before my time, was paid by a few (maybe 10) of the 'core group' only, and is held by one of the 'core group' members. I am not one of those who paid because I was not involved at the time. I did not 'negate' to mention it or deliberately omit mention of it. 

The NRKA was incorporated by Peter Johnson recently, so is accountable to Fair Trading for its financial activities. The structure, as I mentioned earlier, is solely interim to allow incorporation, and things like bank accounts etc to be established. Once the foundation stuff has been done, THEN we can ALL sit down and discuss the structure and function into the future, and make whatever changes are needed to the initial format.. That was the way it was always going to be. There has been no power-grab by 'elites' (not my word) and nothing is set in stone. 

For your information.

Jamie.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> To my way of thinking a self appointed group no matter how much experience they may or may not collectively have is starting way behind the eight ball.
> 
> Much better to ask for nominations for those positions in each state and the list of nominees get put to a vote by herp societies throughout the country.
> 
> As a collective voice, herp keepers are by far and away a very small minority and I see more value in trying to align with the birdos. At least that way we have a bigger voice,as well as being able to draw on their past experiences.



I agree. Getting this started should be a careful balance between top-down organisation (just because it works) and bottom-up representation (because it is what keepers and breeders want, I think).

The starting point should be the compilation of a list of the secretaries of all Australian herpetological and reptile/amphibian keeping societies/associations/clubs (hereafter just called 'clubs'). This would be followed by an email or letter to each secretary stating, in broad terms, the plan to create representative state peak associations with an ultimate aim to create a national representative peak association, and seeking their club's willingness to affiliate and elect delegates to such associations.

Our initial purpose for forming the state and national associations should be something we can nearly all agree on and I would suggest that, at least during the formation phase, we limit our purpose to "preserving and extending the privilege of private hobbyists and researchers to keep and breed Australian reptiles and amphibians".

Once the associations are established, they can turn their attention to additional purposes withe the ultimate aim that these associations become the widely recognised focus for engagement among reptile keepers, governments and other interested parties.

If/when sufficient interest from the clubs is obvious, the next step is for each club to send delegates to a state meeting (may need some teleconferencing to ensure easy participation by remote clubs) where the decision to form state associations will be formally made and people elected to draft constitutions, etc. (This is where the bird keeping associations can really help us initially as they should have constitutions that, with very few changes, would probably save us.'reinventing the wheel'.)

Once the state/territory associations have been formed with agreed constitutions, office holders and delegates (I've skipped a huge amount of detail and work here) they can form the national association in a similar manner.

Now for the hard question. Who is going to make this happen? I think that this is going to have to be led by a steering committee that will disband when the state and national associations have been formed, even though members of the steering committee may continue their involvement if they are elected as officers or delegates to the state or national associations.

What we now need is to arrive at a consensus on how the membership of the steering committee will be decided. I have no ideas about this that I'm happy with. Self nomination may work if there is also a process for rejecting nominations where the nominee does not have the respect of the keeping/breeding community. Ideas anyone????


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## pythonmum (Dec 12, 2009)

Just got back to the site after a week off and have spent way too long reading this debate. As someone from the USA who has worked in animal research both there and here, I echo those who encourage everyone to take this threat very seriously. If you simply look at the NSW legislation, which is presented as being about dogs in pet shops, you will have a big surprise. Not clear if it would cover frozen rodents, but it stipulates that you don't sell any mammals unless you are a breeder or rescue organisation. This is a huge bonus for the purebred dog industry and makes intelligent farmbred dogs illegal, not to mention most small mammal pets. The reptile hobby is small compared to the money in crossbreed 'designer' dogs. Don't kid yourself that the money associated with an expanding reptile hobby will make a difference. Well-organised lobby groups like PETA and the RSPCA have many donations from animal lovers who are not familiar with their full policies. They have professional lobbyists and slick publicity campaigns. The reptile hobby has some good herp societies, but nowhere near the organisation, direction and funding of the other organisations. NRKA is a step in the right direction.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The NRKA was incorporated by Peter Johnson recently, so is accountable to Fair Trading for its financial activities. The structure, as I mentioned earlier, is solely interim to allow incorporation, and things like bank accounts etc to be established. Once the foundation stuff has been done, THEN we can ALL sit down and discuss the structure and function into the future, and make whatever changes are needed to the initial format.


This is great. I wasn't aware of how much top-down organisation had commenced. The current existence of a national entity (albeit waiting for the blanks to be filled in - a good thing IMO) could provide the clubs with confidence that there is sufficient commitment to a national association and thus encourage them to be a part of the formation and development processes.

Two questions. Is the "Fair Trading" with whom NRKA is incorparated a state or federal body? Does it matter?


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 12, 2009)

This thread was really starting to progress in a calm and logical fashion finally. 

Some of the ideas that are being thrown around have some real merit. As I said before, I'm not sure I see the value of only one body given our differing laws, but certainly something similar to Derek's ideas sounds like it would have a good shot of working. 

Obviously, if the purpose of this group is to put forward the needs or desires of the herping community, there are going to be a number of differing ideas about what these would be, as we have seen already in this thread. Like a few others have stated, some of the legislation that covers keeping are far too lax, such as that involving elapid keeping. I'd be willing to be that there are any number of people who would disagree. I honestly believe that if there truly will be any bans being brought in on herp keeping, that elapids are where it will start given the higher possibility of real harm coming to keepers of those animals. The last thing on earth I would want is a ban on elapid keeping, I know it'd break my partner's heart to have to part with his animals and I'd be missing out on being able to observe them so closely myself. I would like to think though, that the blocking of such bans would not extend as far as asking for (and being granted) more leniency than is in the laws currently. So how do you achieve a concensus among a group with such wildly diverging ideas as ours?

My other concern is that we're showing a huge knee jerk reaction to a law in another country which in effect is a MUCH softer version of a law already in place in this country. The law in America prevents the sale and transport of 9 species of large exotic snakes. Our laws here currently ban the keeping, selling, importation yadda yadda yadda of ALL exotics. People, the deed here is well and truly done already. Surely if the purpose behind that law in America was some sort of tree hugging conspiracy to prevent people from keeping reptiles in general they would have simply done so? Or at least made a start by banning all dangerous native snakes such as crotalids? As it stands there is no correlation whatsoever between this law and a law (which doesn't even exist) to stop us keeping native species. Further - I agree with come who have posted previously in support of this law in America, I'm sorry if people don't like that, but it certainly doesn't make me less of a snake lover simply because I see the reasoning behind trying to stop further issues being caused by the keeping of these non native species.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

AnitaBlake said:


> My other concern is that we're showing a huge knee jerk reaction to a law in another country which in effect is a MUCH softer version of a law already in place in this country.


I think it is not so much the content of the proposed US law that has many of us concerned; it is the way this proposed law has been sneaked into the US leglislative program will little opportunity for informed public debate or organised opposition.

Also this event in the US serves as a useful reminder to us that there are well funded groups with excellent organisational and lobbying skills in Australia that oppose the existence of our hobby. The only reason that we are not firmly in their sights right now is that we haven't reached the top of their priority list - yet.

On that basis, I think it is prudent that we organise our defence of our hobby now while we can do so with calm consideration - before we really need it in a hurry.


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## chilli (Dec 12, 2009)

wokka said:


> The legislated control of giant constricting snakes in the US seems a sensible move to me.



isn't it identical to nsw npws restricting keepers from having crocodiles?

regarding a nrka, peter and jamie both exhibit the highest integrity, both are very energetic and are involved for the benefit of the hobby.

an association will always have agendas which people don't believe are worthwhile, you will never have concensus on every topic. either the association is for you or it's not. 

instead of trying to undermine the association, if it's not for you, just keep the speculation to yourself because any criticism is totally unfounded.


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## ozziepythons (Dec 12, 2009)

Could we go back to the drawing board for a moment, while someone very well informed with nothing but the facts on here, sheds light on what exactly the proposed legislation in the US regarding 's. 373' aka 'the python ban' stipulates? After reading David Barker's email and the threads following it, there seems to be much confusion on APS as to what exactly it means. Some say it is a trade ban, where as David seems to think many specimens are to be relinquished and destroyed. Someone?


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## Retic (Dec 12, 2009)

The exact wording and meaning of the proposed law in the US is largely irrelevant to this discussion, the crux of the matter is that a law can be introduced with little or no notice that can be amended in the future to include many more species. The implications for us are obvious, it has absolutely nothing to do with banning exotics Boids.


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## ozziepythons (Dec 12, 2009)

boa said:


> The exact wording and meaning of the proposed law in the US is largely irrelevant to this discussion, the crux of the matter is that a law can be introduced with little or no notice that can be amended in the future to include many more species. The implications for us are obvious, it has absolutely nothing to do with banning exotics Boids.


 
This thread was instigated by prospect of the proposed legislation 's 373' and therefore absolutely believe it is relevent to further discussion. Due to evident confusion that seems to have arisen of the proposed legislation on this thread, I would like someone informed to clarify what it is that this proposition entails? Therefore what are we arming ourselves with a national representative body against (yes I'm aware of the unique jurisdiction being placed in the US has no bearing on what exactly could happen here) ? 

Also I mistakenly referred to Dave Barker as 'David' Barker in my previous post....


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

ozziepythons said:


> Could we go back to the drawing board for a moment, while someone very well informed with nothing but the facts on here, sheds light on what exactly the proposed legislation in the US regarding 's. 373' aka 'the python ban' stipulates? After reading David Barker's email and the threads following it, there seems to be much confusion on APS as to what exactly it means. Some say it is a trade ban, where as David seems to think many specimens are to be relinquished and destroyed. Someone?


My understanding is that, as a proposed federal law, it is limited by states rights to only matters on which federal law has primary jurisdiction. In this case, by amending Title 18 of the United States Code to define pythons as "an injurious animal", it will ban the import, export and interstate movement in a yet to be finalised list of python species.

Sufficiently interested people can read the actual content at Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress) and US CODE: Title 18,42. Importation or shipment of injurious mammals, birds, fish (including mollusks and crustacea), amphibia, and reptiles; permits, specimens for museums; regulations.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

ozziepythons said:


> Therefore what are we arming ourselves with a national representative body against (yes I'm aware of the unique jurisdiction being placed in the US has no bearing on what exactly could happen here) ?


IMO, we are "arming ourselves":


for the preservation and extension of the privilege of private hobbyists and researchers to keep and breed Australian reptiles and amphibians, and
against those people and organisations that would lobby governments to remove these privileges.
 I see the activity in the US as a strong reminder to us that we should not take these privileges for granted and should prepare our defence while we can do so without undue time pressure and the stress of imminent focussed attack.


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 12, 2009)

derekm said:


> I think it is not so much the content of the proposed US law that has many of us concerned; it is the way this proposed law has been sneaked into the US leglislative program will little opportunity for informed public debate or organised opposition.
> 
> Also this event in the US serves as a useful reminder to us that there are well funded groups with excellent organisational and lobbying skills in Australia that oppose the existence of our hobby. The only reason that we are not firmly in their sights right now is that we haven't reached the top of their priority list - yet.
> 
> On that basis, I think it is prudent that we organise our defence of our hobby now while we can do so with calm consideration - before we really need it in a hurry.


 If it truly were the case that our legislative system would allow for such a Machiavellian play as the one seen in the U.S., and the organisations which are against keeping reptiles were so influential, then I would have thought that there would have been a great deal less consultation with reptile demonstrators when the new legislation governing demonstrations was being proposed in Queensland. Since it's not something that affects a great many members of this site I wouldn't expect it to be well known - but when the governing of native wildlife demonstrations was handed over to Biosecurity Queensland, they approached all demonstrators expressed an interest in learning about what was involved in demonstrating wildlife. They suggested the formation of an association with which they could liase to accurately gain information on not only what is involved in the process, but what the concerns of demonstrators were in regards to the standards and legislation which would be imposed on them. 

That being said, there will always be value in having a voice (or several voices) to make our desires known, I simply think we are ascribing too many American values on our own system. Flawed as it may be, it's still a different beast.


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## ozziepythons (Dec 12, 2009)

derekm said:


> My understanding is that, as a proposed federal law, it is limited by states rights to only matters on which federal law has primary jurisdiction. In this case, by amending Title 18 of the United States Code to define pythons as "an injurious animal", it will ban the import, export and interstate movement in a yet to be finalised list of python species.
> 
> Sufficiently interested people can read the actual content at Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress) and US CODE: Title 18,42. Importation or shipment of injurious mammals, birds, fish (including mollusks and crustacea), amphibia, and reptiles; permits, specimens for museums; regulations.


 
Thanks Derekm, I checked out the links. I myself understand that a trade ban is part of the legislation, but wonder if there is any merit in Dave Barker's comment that millions of specimens will be destroyed as a result? He also stated that even possession of certian species will be made illegal.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> Can I just ask how many of you here study law? :lol:


I don't study law in any formal sense. However, I am on the committee of a sporting club and a voting delegate to the sport's state association. This sport, target shooting, has a long history of well organised opponents trying to have it banned, and a long history of representative state and national associations presenting sound arguments and policy recommendations to governments to help keep the sport alive and flourishing. I therefore have a deep appreciation of the potential problems facing the reptile keeping community.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

ozziepythons said:


> Thanks Derekm, I checked out the links. I myself understand that a trade ban is part of the legislation, but wonder if there is any merit in Dave Barker's comment that millions of specimens will be destroyed as a result?


Probably. If the trade collapses, breeding stock and unsold juveniles will be destroyed by people who can no longer afford to sustain large populations just as pets - even though it will probably tear their hearts out to do it. Think about a cattle station. If interstate and international trade in cattle and beef was banned, how many graziers would keep their cattle as pets?


ozziepythons said:


> He also stated that even possession of certian species will be made illegal.


Not as a direct result of this legislation, but the passage of this law at a federal level could encourage further federal or state legislation in that direction.

IMO Dave is painting a reasonable worst case scenario - probably the most effective way to quickly generate the irate opposition required, but will need tempering if/when their immediate crisis passes. We don't have an immediate crisis - yet.


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## moosenoose (Dec 12, 2009)

derekm said:


> I don't study law in any formal sense. However, I am on the committee of a sporting club and a voting delegate to the sport's state association. This sport, target shooting, has a long history of well organised opponents trying to have it banned, and a long history of representative state and national associations presenting sound arguments and policy recommendations to governments to help keep the sport alive and flourishing. I therefore have a deep appreciation of the potential problems facing the reptile keeping community.




That's good to know, but what you'll also appreciate, after what you saw with Australian gun reforms, is the similarity between the actions of a few jeopardizing the privileges of many.

This action taken by the US legislators has been brought about as a reaction to something that has occurred, like Port Arthur did to our gun laws, all we need here is a trigger of equal magnitude to dive us down the same path. With that in mind I really don't know what you guys think you're going to achieve with this last stand battalion front thingy you're trying to put together, because when an act of sheer stupidity (and amazing there are lots of stupid people in this hobby :lol stuffs up - we're all going to wear it NO MATTER WHAT! The RSPCA and PUBLIC OPINION will just knock whatever twig you attempt to wave at them and you'll be left scratching your heads and wondering where it all went wrong!

Lemme see, there was a guy up North recently who got done for road rage and threatened a lady with a carpet snake - telling her it was a death adder! Gee, some people are hard to protect, yet this is what may very well kill this hobby! How can you argue a case in his defense?? You can't!

Point is: There is nothing anyone will be able to do if people holding these reptiles do stupid/careless things with them! You could have Jesus Christ heading this amazing committee and he still wouldn't save it!- end of story!


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## ozziepythons (Dec 12, 2009)

Hmmmm, as much as it is important that we set up a NRKA as insurance for the future of our hobby/ interest, how likely is it that any type of ban on keeping any species of native reptile could come to pass here, in a retroactive sense? WA finally lifted its draconian laws on reptile keeping several years ago, and womas are now available in NSW. The raids and tyranny imposed by fauna permit representatives many years ago in the east have come to pass as the hobby gained strength and respectability over time. Australia seems to be moving forwards into the 21st century, not backwards if history is anything to go by (however, lets us not forget the Tasmanians, a state whos laws are slow to catch up).
The other thing is most Australians have first hand experience with reptiles, whether it be brown snakes and blue tounges in suburban Adelaide or carpet pythons and water dragons in Brisbane. Most of our lives are entwined with such fauna, not divorced from it, so such jurisdictional legislation banning keeping even captive bred specimens would be seen as extremist nowdays, and few people would stand for it.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> That's good to know, but what you'll also appreciate, after what you saw with Australian gun reforms, is the similarity between the actions of a few jeopardizing the privileges of many.


Absolutely!



moosenoose said:


> This action taken by the US legislators has been brought about as a reaction to something that has occurred, like Port Arthur did to our gun laws, all we need here is a trigger of equal magnitude to dive us down the same path. With that in mind I really don't know what you guys think you're going to achieve with this last stand battalion front thingy you're trying to put together, because when an act of sheer stupidity (and amazing there are lots of stupid people in this hobby :lol stuffs up - we're all going to wear it NO MATTER WHAT! The RSPCA and PUBLIC OPINION will just knock whatever twig you attempt to wave at them and you'll be left scratching your heads and wondering where it all went wrong!
> 
> Lemme see, there was a guy up North recently who got done for road rage and threatened a lady with a carpet snake - telling her it was a death adder! Gee, some people are hard to protect, yet this is what may very well kill this hobby! How can you argue a case in his defense?? You can't!


Of course you can't! Defending the indefensible is not a useful approach. 



moosenoose said:


> Point is: There is nothing anyone will be able to do if people holding these reptiles do stupid/careless things with them! You could have Jesus Christ heading this amazing committee and he still wouldn't save it!- end of story!


What a responsible and representative state/national association determined to save and extend the hobby can do is to very publicly repudiate the actions of such idiots and metaphorically throw them to the wolves. This has much more strength in a public relations sense than individual keepers going on the record as condemning such behaviour.

Your post has prompted another idea that a national association could achieve - develop and promote a voluntary code of conduct that reflects the wishes and current behaviour of the majority of the reptile keeping community.


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## cris (Dec 12, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> This action taken by the US legislators has been brought about as a reaction to something that has occurred, like Port Arthur did to our gun laws, all we need here is a trigger of equal magnitude to dive us down the same path.



This isnt the full picture, gun laws were waiting to happen anyway, triggers are only relevant if there is something to trigger. If the police sell an assault rifle to a nutcase there is need for some changes IMO(not that i agree with what they did). If there was as much lobbying power as existed today i doubt the laws would have been as stupid.

What was the trigger for them to ban feeding live shrimp to other animals? or make it illegal to use dogs for hunting other animals?

I will answer - A bunch of brainless whinging animal liberationists...


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## snakelover (Dec 12, 2009)

Although I summarised my view in my short post early in the thread, I have a further suggestion, based on the sensible logic of Derek's post, which advocated the initial formation of State-based groups that might contribute to a national group by way of providing representatives. 

As a suggestion as to how we might move forward, how about a large open NSW forum (meeting) to discuss how NSW might go - whether to adopt the strategy of developing a 'NSWRKA' vs further development of a national body (NRKA) with individual membership? The other states could concurrently do same. Concerns have been expressed in this thread about current NRKA office-bearers possibly being non-representative - and indeed, that commercial self-interest may be a driver for some. Why not get all sufficiently interested parties together to discuss this, and certainly to put forward alternative leaders? The truth is that it may be hard to find people prepared to do the work - which is thankless and risks inevitable Internet criticism. I personally think we would be extremely lucky to get people of the calibre of Jamie, who are capable of and prepared to do the long yards required. To put one or two minds at ease, I am not personally an office holder for NRKA nor any other herp group, and won't accept any such position in the forseeable future. 

As a suggestion to achieving above, how about forming a 'startup committee', perhaps in the first instance comprised of existing office holders of the NSW herp societies; two or three (or more?) contributors to the current APS discussion who feel strongly enough about the need for ensuring a more transparent system to put their hands up, plus the two or three NRKA office holders (I think the committee is currently Jamie, Anthony Stimson and Peter Johnson?). This loose 'committee' could work towards the organising and conducting of an open forum - perhaps at one of the RSL clubs or equivalent in Sydney - or maybe at one of the earlier expos this year, where a future direction can be found in a more democratic fashion. This of course will mean that in the next few weeks 'someone' will have to do a fair bit of organisational work - which of course is where democratic progressions can falter. But perhaps if a time limit is established - e.g. if no such forum is organised within a reasonable period (say, well planned by mid-January?), then the existing NRKA committee or one of the herp societies might consider stepping up to the plate to organise such a forum. But even if the forum/meeting is organised by NRKA or a herp group, the open meeting that is being called for will allow a fully democratic approach to mapping a way forward towards the devopment of a truly representative body.

I would expect that a number of talented people from interstate herp groups, herp magazine publishers, breeders and the like could also be coaxed to attend, and would add considerable value to trying to put something together that can build eventually to a nation-wide industry-representative voice. People like Simon Stone (SA), John Deutcher (Vic) and Troy Kuligowski (Qld) are names that come to mind.

How does all of this sound as a rough idea? I thought about it overnight, and don't see any other practical way of meeting the reasonable criticisms that have been presented in the current discussion thread. This way, everyone gets to have a say in the development of a representative body, and at the same time, as Jamie said, anyone not interested in participating, need not participate. Its an attempt to find a way forward, where either the existing progress of NRKA might benefit from a more democratic foundation, or a better way of forming a representative reptile-keeping body is determined and developed?

John


Derek's post: 

It should represent itself as the peak national body representing reptile keepers and deal with issues at a national level.
It should have state and territory based affiliates, not members. Individual affiliates should be affiliates by virtue of their membership of an affilliated club/association/society (see below).
It should be composed of an executive committee including a president, secretary, treasurer, state/territory delegates and special purpose office holders as required.
There should be similarly composed state/territory associations (for simplicity NSWRKA, VRKA, WARKA, etc) that should be affiliates of, and elect delegates to, ARKA.
These state/territory associations should represent themselves as the peak state bodies representing reptile keepers and therefore deal with issues at a state/territory level. (IMO, state-level associations are necessary because much of the law governing reptile keeping is state law, not federal law.) 
Individual herpetological and reptile keeping clubs/associations/societies would choose to affiliate with the state RKAs and members of affilliated clubs would pay an affiliation levy to the state RKA (through their club) to cover admin costs and establish whatever 'fighting funds' are required.
Affiliated clubs/associations/societies would elect delegates to their state associations.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 12, 2009)

John, we dont have to see eye to eye on everything, though your logical application of the model put forward by Derek seems both democratic and achievable. There is no two ways about it, we are in desperate need of organisation withing the ranks. State groups would be a good platform for the development of a national body if the need arises for one, because as you mentioned most battlegrounds will be at the state and territory level. If NSW can lead the way, as it seems most of the driving forces behind the NRKA are here, we may be able to provide a workable model for the other states to follow. 

We have seen alot of baseless opinion thrown around till now, how about we invest the same efforts into analysing a more tactile and workable scenario.


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## garycahill (Dec 12, 2009)

Not interested in getting involved in the in fighting, but would be more than happy to become a financial member when the bugs get sorted out.


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## derekm (Dec 12, 2009)

When the initial NSW meeting goes ahead, it may be a good idea to invite _observers_ from other states to attend or, if possible, dial in and listen by teleconference. Canberra is close enough that the ACT should be able to send some interested AHA and MARK people if they are invited. I'd be happy to attend as an observer myself if I can fit it around my work commitments.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 13, 2009)

In this mornings Sunday Heraldsun, a lovely article.
Headline..*Streets Croc Fear*.
A nice pic of a croc on a road in Geelong, another of two very scared looking toddlers.
The mother has complained that the owner of the croc..and a two metre python, cant keep them contained.
The crocs owners neighbours are worried the escaped reptiles could harm their young kids or pets.
This is very bad publicity and can be used as a springboard fro the anti reptile keepers.
The nieghbour is mother to 3 girls under 6 the paper says.
This is an emotive article in that it is using the kids to push the point.
If a 2.3 metre croc or even a 2 metre python escaped in geelong on a hot day i spose it could potentially make a meal out of a little kid.
Newspapers love this stuff.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 13, 2009)

Peoples, what happened to this thread? I initially had some fears about this latest incarnation of the NRKA, though a positive analogy has arisen, a democratic state by state self governing system, with alliegance to a Nation wide body if need be, a model that can work, though not without backing from the keeping public. Maybe the problem is that it is a fairly sound model, and theres not too much wrong with the proposal, though a simple affirmation that individuals would be happy with Johns proposal and would back it, would give some indication that it is worth the effort of those willing to put their time in.... I have seen thousands of "nice pics" posts, and a simple "I would support that proposed model" post would suffice. 

I support this new model, and am pleased it was put into the public hands, and communicated with us, it has belayed most of my fears.


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## Colin (Dec 13, 2009)

Ive always supported the idea we needed a national collective voice and am more than happy to have state branches of the NRKA with a national group made up state member representatives with possibly a core consulting group etc. I think Johns idea of getting together to discuss ideas and options is a good move.
The important thing though is to make some start and headway and get the ball rolling. changes and fine detail can be done later when needed. getting some base foundation set in place to build on is the first step. cheers


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## krefft (Dec 13, 2009)

Hear, Hear ihaveherps.
Well done to everyone who voiced concerns and offered opinions and solutions.
I too am confident that we are one the right path.


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## AnitaBlake (Dec 13, 2009)

Absolutely, anything which will take into consideration the varying laws each state, as well as provide some sort of collective voice stands a much better chance of success; as oppose to just one group in one state trying to make their point while wrapping their heads around differing legislation. Many hands make much lighter and more democratic work.


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## cris (Dec 13, 2009)

Another thing we can do aside from direct representation is vote against fanatical political parties that have the same deluded ideals as animal rights groups, the Greens and Democrats.


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## percey39 (Dec 13, 2009)

I would certainly back a state and national organisation, as i can see we all might have a bad situation arising sooner or later.


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## moosenoose (Dec 13, 2009)

I say we lynch the RSPCA!! (goes and grabs his pitchfork!)  ....who else can we add to this list? Who's with me??? 

I can see the vision now, thousands of angry herpers with their tatts, piercings & placards marching to parliament house chanting" Hell no we won't go!" and "You can pry my python outta my cold dead hands!" :lol:

Are we allowed to string anyone up??? How about Bellamy? Is he still around?


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## stuartandconnie (Dec 13, 2009)

it would just send it under ground


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## BARRAMUNDI (Dec 13, 2009)

Sorry if I sound a little naieve, 
but what exactly do we want these new committee's to govern and/or achieve. All licencing and approvals are already handled by state government departments. ie EPA or NP and W service. Are we trying to achieve new keeping standards, or are we simply trying to form one credible voice to react to potential new laws or standards that are to be brought in by the corresponding NP and W for each state.


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## Retic (Dec 13, 2009)

The latter.


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## wiz-fiz (Dec 13, 2009)

did the lsw pass?

Will


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## BARRAMUNDI (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks ASH
but if we (responsible keepers) adhere to our relevant state legislation, we shouldn't have anything to fear, IMO what we need is our state authorities to seriously clamp down on the negligent minority (eg the fool with the croc in Melbourne) that potentialiy gives responsible keepers (most of us) a bad reputation. 
Fair enough a national voice is a positive move, but do most people really think a national body is going to make a difference. Most people talking about this national body are on this forum. Forum users are a minority compared to the greater reptile keeper community


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## Weezer (Dec 13, 2009)

I am in favour of the model being proposed, providing we have the transparency which most of us seem to agree is important also. 

@barramundi : A national voice IS a positive move, and whilst the effectiveness of such a body is yet to be proven- it sure beats sitting on our hands, which is the other option. And whilst forum users are a minority of the herp community _en masse_, the National body of which we speak is certainly not intended to be an internet chat room- but if we can muster some cattle using every available means at our disposal both web-based and community based; including rallying those troops who are outside of the internet circle, then it is a good starting point to at least having a _voice_- and then it will be up to us _all_ to see how loud we can make that voice.

The mindset we will be up against is the "herpers are ferals, rednecks and renegades" spiel- we have all heard it or felt it. By formulating our own committees, establishing an_ inter_ and _intra_state dialogue and showing some cohesion, at the very least our hobby will be seen to be an organised group of like minds, instead of a no holds barred frontier of rebels with few organisational skills and therefore no potential for public backlash, should the gods of politics try to go Seppo on us and sneak one past the keeper.

I'm in.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Dec 13, 2009)

Weezer, I can see that point of view. Maybe I am being a bit of a downer, but from what I have seen on this and other forums, cohesion between reptile keepers rarely occurs. Most topics that will arise that will be addressed by these committee's are going to be controversial, and when it comes to controversy, people run hot and say and do silly things. All we need to do is look through some threads on this forum for evidence.

I understand that these people saying and doing silly things wont be on the committee, however they are still going to be affiliated with these committees once they join. I dont think we are going to be able to stop them from joining. If or when these people say or do something we all regret, its going to make the committee look less credible. As you said transperancy is paramount, but I think it is hard to achieve.

It sounds like most people believe there is a concern with the public image of Reptile Keepers, the only way to change that public image is to reduce or even eliminate the irresponsible keepers, a national body cant and wont do this. As I said we really need our current state authorities to tighten up keeping standards, perhaps even conduct more inspections.

As I said, a national body is a positive move, however IMO its effectiveness in regards to tackling issues I feel is going to be very limited. 

But like weezer said, at least we are doing something.


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## Weezer (Dec 13, 2009)

No, I agree Barra, it only takes one bad apple- and I am doing my best to be diplomatic here because I happen to like this site and have made many a friend here...and many an enemy (just as rewarding btw) ....but back on track- without anything in place at all- ie, the status quo- if there is a sudden push to eradicate our hobby, then all we are left with is this forum. Not that I think we are terribly at risk from anything but the egos of a few.

I do find it extremely hard to accept that there will not be bias, self serving acts, politics, controversy, anger and finally division.... but welcome to earth everyone because that kind of vibe is everywhere we look anyway. it happens at my kid's cake stall and allllllllll the way to Government house.

..glance through these forums and you will see we cant agree on what gives a keeper credibility (is it years in the game, money in the bank, variety of species, breeding skills, website hits, husbandry knowledge, who writes for what magazine, how many friends in high places you have..which dep't you hang with, how many names you can drop in one breath, who you advertise through...blah blah blah)

...then there is the morph/RPM, hybrid/exotic debate....then there is the matter of who should be in control of regulating our community,....then there is the pay for credibility debate (I sponsor this, write for that, _know_ this guy, _am_ that guy etc...)

*So what we need in all reality is a bunch of clubs- they don't have to be "Sunday afternoon let's debate the issue and compare morphs" kinda clubs- just small groups of common interest- (I for one and am all for nominating myself as president of the "30+ misfits who like beardies and grunge bands club"*

If we all had our own little scenes, and then came together for the odd forum with reps from the other clubs- then maybe we would have a shot at one day reading from the same page- but the sort of process we are currently debating is several years away from reaching any sort of goal. And forming a bunch of satellite clubs is fraught with hurdles- there is the time it takes to gather members, draw up a charter, get to know one another, weed out the teething problems and ********s etc....then of course we will run the risk of finding we have EVERYTHING in common with our membership, and nothing in common with the rest, and it will only serve to divide us more from the rest of you....

And according to the ones that know "......." we can have our herps taken with a couple of parliament whispers before we know it, so we have to hurry quick run the tsunami is coming everybody's going to die- but I dont think we are on course for the USA crash that appears to be unfolding- because I think the States in Oz do a fair job of regulating a relatively novel and young scene- let's face it- they do not meddle with us common herpers- they stamp our papers and our licence applications...and we do not have a situation like the States where I can buy an Iguana on ebay that matches the colour of my Burmese Python- so regulation is definitely a little, umm...professional than what has gone on in Florida... (poetic licence I know, but you get my drift).

The government has records of all our herps on file...and doesnt come knocking unless I post a Cobra for sale on Herptrader or put up pics of my PitBull playing with my Coastal in ChitChat... so as long as we keep our noses clean, and condemn those ****wits that do silly things like let their croc out for a walk, or threaten ladies with pythons; and we don't try and push for open slather on exotic imports- then we are out of sight, out of mind- and none of the vitriole that we hear about PETA, RSPCA, animal liberation or the Czech Communist Party is going to sway me from the opinion that we are on a hiding to nothing. Not when I am member of the first 3 and would have walked instantly had i heard the slightest of rumbles..if you have read any of my posts over the years you will know I do not suffer fools. And the last thing you will hear from me is "trust me, I know.." when the several times I have read that sentiment in this thread I have imagined shooting humans. I kid.

But that said, I will throw my hat in the ring, or my wallet, for any organisation that has_* legitimate *_interests regarding ANY animal. There are always going to be ****ers involved in the hobby- but that doesnt mean we have to shake their hand, offer them unconditional respect , vote them onto a board or carry on like their years of experience are worth more weight than our years of common sense. 

So like I have said- the President of this movement is going to need to be a diplomat; educated, accessible and not prone to thinking insecure and elitist opinions- but open to populist opinion, willing to cop it on the chin and have the ability to show respect even if smiling through his teeth. All the experience in the world doesn't make up for flawed character, so providing the criteria is met- then I will jump in without checking the temperature.. for too long.

But we are going in circles here.... and all because of some choice emotive posts and a sky-is-falling mentality ..... over a country whose original regulatory processes were never like our current practices, and whose native wildlife situation is being threatened in ways ours is not...

I would LOVE to see one piece of honest proof that there is indeed a witch hunt- that we are already on the chopping block- that any of the animal rights groups are circling us like wolves- that our native fauna is in jeapordy due to our hobby or at least the idiots invlved with it- that our government has been infiltrated by Bono....that there is any threat WHATSOEVER. 

one document- one media publication- all I hear is anecdotal rhetoric.

but hey- get the ball rolling guys, I will throw a little cash in, just as I have for any org that is having a go. but I am not funding a bunch of elitist oldtimers who can't even put together a sentence that is not littered with condescending overtones and poor grammar.

typos are ok though. I'll kop that 

teehee.


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## garycahill (Dec 13, 2009)

Well put Weezer.
This is the type of thinking that will get the hobby to it's required destination.
I personally back this 100%
Where do I sign up Weezer?


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## Weezer (Dec 14, 2009)

Well Gaz, I reckon the first step is a social one- let's set a date after the New years Shennanigans are over , on a Sunday, where all the States individually meet up...of course given the size and scope of each State- (and pardon my QLD focus but consider it a general example), we could organise something along the lines of:

brisbane (covering Goldie & Sunny Coasts, Toowoomba, maybe even Byron, 

Fraser Coast (Gympie, hervey Bay, Maryborough, bundy etc)

NSW could cover Sydney, Hunter Region, South Coast, etc

and so on and so forth- we just gather for a BBQ in our respective haunts, with no agenda and no official debate- just a bunch of herpers blowing the froth off a few and cooking up some grub.

the only way to ensure a useful process is start off socially before we start chest thumping down the track...so let's line it up- catch up, put some names to faces and make some new friends- network, chill and enjoy the day.

With any luck the day will be enough of a success to then step it up it to a _monthly_ gig- at which point we can start introducing some direct conversation- and by that I mean CONVERSATION; ideas, opinions and light candy....after that we can get into the nuts and bolts, start reporting back to the other regional groups and finding some commonality. if we focus on the common goals and ignore the bones of contention- we may just be able to circumvent the supposed inevitability of disagreement.

Give it a few months and by close of the financial year we will all have an idea of who the usual suspects are- who can offer a little input- and then we can start talking about interstellar war. But if we start off by lining up in the big steel cage with no rules and no softening period, it is going to get bloody very quickly and do more harm than good. So let's try it the Australian way.

I will throw on a couple of cartons, so anyone else that wants to come hang out can do the same- bring a little something for the masses - and once we have ideas of numbers and origins we can find a location that is nice and green and central to the majority.

Sound like a plan ? 

Now in the interests of peace and harmony- I will offer my one and only United States reference to ponder:

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.”

“Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.”

“All of us do not have equal talent, but all of us should have an equal opportunity to develop our talents.”

“There are risks and costs to a program of action, but they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of comfortable inaction”

“The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.”


Mr kennedy had one very decent speech writer.



So let's try _Option A_ before we go charging into _Option double u tee eff._


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## FAY (Dec 14, 2009)

'Ask not what your hobby can do for you, but what you can do for your hobby' LOL


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## zulu (Dec 14, 2009)

*re Banning*



GARTHNFAY said:


> 'Ask not what your hobby can do for you, but what you can do for your hobby' LOL



LMAO Garth, ive been s member of different societys in NSW since 1968,none has been more proggressive than Mac Herps,couldnt get the Hawkesbury society to have a reptile show over the years etc.Ile support what Mac Herps do and those that seek posts and would stand are mostly members of Mac Herps and will get voted in any way as John has stated.For those they cant see past my sense of humour i condem you all LOL, One media based society voted in by the people for the people at Mac Herps where everything gets done because peter lives just down the road LOL


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## Weezer (Dec 14, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> 'Ask not what your hobby can do for you, but what you can do for your hobby' LOL


:lol:

There's always one loose cannon


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## yellowman (Dec 14, 2009)

Im madd late on this but the only reason they really wanna ban the keeping of pythons and boas in the us is because people don't like snakes especially large snakes. Passing a law like this will just make the public feel safe nothing more. If a person in Maine, Michigan, New york, or even Alabama were keeping a python that got loose it wouldn't cause any harm to the native wild life because it wouldn't survive long enough to do any damage. The only reason they are a real threat in florida is because most of florida has a tropical climate. Outside of Florida and Hawaii there aren't many places in the US were exoic pythons and boas would be able to survive. If they really wanted to ban something that causes billions of dollars of damage and truly poses a threat to the ecosystem in the states they could ban the importation of many different species of exotic plants. Like i said at the beginning it's just a bill to make the public feel safe and also appease of the animal rights activist.


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## SnakeyTroy (Dec 14, 2009)

This is just insane! 
If the American govt is smart they will not allow this proposal to pass.


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## SnakeyTroy (Dec 14, 2009)

I agree with you Yellowman.
The stupid part is that there are also millions of exotic Venomous snakes in the US. It surprises me that they are not pushing for these to be banned also.
God forbid that ever happens and God forbid this bill should ever pass.


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## Weezer (Dec 14, 2009)

garycahill said:


> Well put Weezer.
> This is the type of thinking that will get the hobby to it's required destination.



Oh,thanks Gaz.

i just don't want any coming out party to jump straight into battle and be seen as antagonist towards any of the animal rights groups, the EPA or Feds when p---ing them off is only going to steel any resolve to destroy us. If we go in with a truly transparent agenda, and a willingness to give the EPA whatever they need to allow us to keep on truckin' , then they will not have an argument.

Case in point (names removed to protect the guilty):

Two people want to organise a herp festival.

1. One goes in guns 'a blazing- trying to invoke his rights from the outset and jumping up and down like Lindsay lohan in a Coke commercial. EPA says- "no chance" and restricts the whole lot to the point of silliness. The organiser fires up and beats his chest. So the EPA rocks up to the festival and makes sure that nothing untoward goes down, and the event is little more than a kid's Birthday party.

2. Second person starts organising their festival. Invites the mayor. Then gets onto the EPA and offers them access to whatever they want. Asks the EPA; "What do you need from me to be happy". EPA says- "nothing, you are doing a great job". So now the stall holders start applying for one day demo licenses. They all sail through with no red tape. No specific bans are put in place other than those that are standard, such as no selling or auctioning herps off. Fine says the organiser. The day goes off without a hitch and not a single EPA rep in sight.

Which approach worked ? The latter. 
Why ? because the EPA weren't treated like the enemy.
Lesson ? The EPA would rather help than kick you in the balls.

Moral to the story ? Don't bite the hand that feeds you, becasue it may be attached to the arm that joins the body that is held up by the feet that may kick your *** tomorrow. 

So going in there with an Us vs Them mentality , as we have seen already in the NSW shennanigans- is only going to set the tone. Why not invite them to our gigs, our shows, encourage their input and all hold hands and listen to Bob geldof allbums and dance around the campfire and grow long sideburns and tie-dye our own t shirts ?

My Dad says that behaviour like that used to be groovy. man..


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## Sdaji (Dec 14, 2009)

You make a good point, Weezer. We often blame the authorities for the 'us and them' mentality which causes both sides problems, but often we are the ones responsible. Even when it is them at fault, we can either choose to act wisely and make the situation better, or we can abuse them for causing trouble and make things slightly worse for them and severely worse for us.

In the long run, having a good relationship with the authorities which control us will pay off. If they hate us they will be inclined to support the RSPCA or any other group wanting to bring us down. If they like us, they will side with us.

If the NRKA or equivalent is to be established, that team needs to understand this issue and work to keep us all on the good side of the government departments. Equally importantly, they should educate the reptile community about how to behave appropriately.

My concern again falls back on the issue of people misusing the position. It is doubtful that this gig would ever involve paid positions, so it is likely that the main motivation for some people to get into the roles of power would be less than admirable. This can probably be avoided if everything is planned out carefully, and a few people active in this thread have had some excellent ideas and suggestions. I think we need to be extremely clear about the role of the NRKA and ensure that's what the members are working on.


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## moosenoose (Dec 14, 2009)

:lol: Ive got an easy suggestion.... just arrange to get Kevin 07 a pet python and we're apples! :lol: Tell him there is nothing more Aussie than keeping a native python and it's good for votes!....... Plus it'll make him look more macho :lol: Thats gotta be easier, and far more convincing, than a bunch of cold-blooded reptile spokespeople trying to tell the general public their loveable RSPCA, protectors of puppies & dear little kittens, are evil swines and should be lynched!! :lol: ...... Why has this thread gone cold?


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## Sdaji (Dec 14, 2009)

That's probably not quite so crazy an idea as it sounds. I wouldn't give plan A (NRKA) away, but it would probably be useful if we had a few politicians or their kids keeping pet snakes, as well as celebrities (we already have a few of those).

You're right, Moose. If the reptile keepers themselves are prone to supporting an organisation which seeks to destroy their own hobby, we have little hope of convincing the members of the community who actually hate snakes. Their area of greatest ability is publicity, and they do this so well that people don't know about all the bad things they do and everyone thinks that supporting the RSPCA simply equates to saving puppies and kittens, when the reality is they don't even do that (for every cat or dog they save, another one dies which otherwise wouldn't have, and causing one cat or dog to die instead of another costs the RSPCA a huge amount of money, which primarily comes out of the pockets of people who genuinely care about animals. Ironically, the RSPCA often ends up fining well-intentioned animal lovers who have spent many years financially supporting them! The RSPCA doesn't hate snakes and doesn't have a vendetta against us personally, they just believe that animals don't belong in captivity, they belong in the wild only (unless they are cats, probably because they still go out and kill wild animals, which makes it all okay). These people would rather see species go extinct than kept alive in captivity, they just don't think that something like a reptile belongs in private hands, no matter what, and they are very fanatical about it.


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## Pythons Rule (Dec 14, 2009)

hey there I was searching you tube and I found this [video=youtube;rMLryadTflM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMLryadTflM[/video] its quite interesting lots of facts and facts on who is running the S373 and what there sole goal is. check it.


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## herptrader (Dec 14, 2009)

The issue I have with something like the ARKA is its tight focus. An entity with a less of a tight focus - say all Australian animals ("Australian Native Animal Keepers Association" for example.) would probably garner more support because of its broader base. It would also potentially include those that have a real phobia of scaly critters.

The challenge here would be to get all the different interested parties to agree and cooperate. It is hard enough to get a bunch of herpers to agree on a common goal let alone herpers and marsupial lovers.

I have been mentally trying to assemble a charter for such an organisation that gets the balance right and would pull together popular broad based support.


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## Colin (Dec 14, 2009)

yellowman said:


> the only reason they really wanna ban the keeping of pythons and boas in the us is because people don't like snakes especially large snakes. Passing a law like this will just make the public feel safe nothing more..



Id be more worried about being shot and/or robbed in the USA than I would be about being attacked by a giant python.. but I suppose if I watched an anaconda movie marathon maybe Id feel differently :lol: It might be a good idea if the americans cleaned up all the illegal drugs and guns and crime etc to make the public feel safe before they make the public feel safe from "anaconda" or the gator from "lake placid"


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## Weezer (Dec 14, 2009)

Some great points-

moosie- you entertainer; you aren't too far off the mark. If i wanted a room full of interested journo's to front up and garner some airtime for us- I would be inviting guests whose public interest is undeniable- celebrities, musicians, evn the odd pollie- for instance the Ipswich Mayor rocked up at Joy's herpfest and was well impressed- that is a_ start_ in QLD- we all know how those Pollies love to get their sexy-on for the cameras. 

Sdaji- glad you agree mate. the first olive branch is simple- we invite the EPA, RSPCA (whose representative we will choose wisely- i am already on it but will reveal my hand later and not here) and any other relevant authority to participate from an early stage- let them know we encourage their input- if we can get them in on the charter-writing...participating in the agenda process, then the agenda we push through as final will be_ theirs also_ to push. the fight will be as much a PR exercise for _them_ as it is for _us_. I have a few enviro buddies in various green causes outside of animal lib- so I can bring them to the table, knowing that there will be no risk of spy infiltration, considering their foucs is broader and not exclusively fauna related anyway- if nothing else, they are nice green-friendly logos that will work wonders in the PR game.

Also, i dont think the RSPCA has a _unanimous_ anti-captive mentality- after all, those volunteers which the animal welfare league and SPCA utilise; have houses full of cats, dogs and sick animals- so we just have to tap into the values that we hold in _common_- animal rescue, rehab, anti-cruelty etc... it is not a big jump and for the most part these are values we all have as herpers anyway, so we are not being _deceptive_; just _selective_ in our approach.

Herptrader- right on mate- the less "specialised" we appear to be- the further reaching our community support will be. Once we have our own herp scene going (in terms of a charter, a little organisation and some fund raising activities that are not herp-exclusive), then we will have a model which will help the other scenes to fast track their position to ours without too much financial and mental strain. But first we need to get our house right- otherwise we will end up struggling to find our own identity if our values conflict with theirs.

Colin- you are dead on about the USA and it's social problems- but let's get out of Compton for a second  The point you make is real- and if there is a sudden push to annihilate our hobby- it will be mainly due to some act of idiocy that sells papers and riles up the public. We *NEED* to have a national PR group . This is something we should aim for before any politics are discussed and dissected. We will need a website, (which I can sort out if need be) that is profesional and which openly sells our charter and our openness to input, debate and is relative to fauna outside of the herp world. We *NEED *a group of 3-5 in each State who can monitor the media, and alert the site admins to anything that can be used against us- then we ritually destroy and hang to dry any idiot that makes our job hard so that we can distance ourselves from these w---ers. Then it is as simple of sending out weekly media releases to all the big guns- major/pay TV networks, community and national radio networks, print publications etc... regardless of whether our gear goes to print- this is not the aim in the early stages- we are establishing a diect line of communication in the media so that the perception is that we are approachable and active- so if the proverbial you-know-what hits the fan- we will be the first point of call when they need the talking head shot for their newscasts. That way- we ensure that *WE* are the voice of reason and the ones who have the right to reply regardless of the journo's intentions to skew a story to suit their editor's bias- instead of some RSPCA delegate who thinks all snakes are cobras.


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## Weezer (Dec 14, 2009)

oh yeah

STICKY time !!!!!!???????

Colin...mate..where are you buddy ?


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## Sdaji (Dec 15, 2009)

Weezer: No, the RSPCA does not have blanket anti pet policies, they strongly encourage the keeping of cats and dogs (they are more divided about some other domesticated animals). What they completely oppose is the keeping of most birds (I am fairly certain they would allow chickens, domesticated ducks and geese, etc, but I am not 100% sure on that point), reptiles, native mammals, etc. Certainly anything which is not long domesticated is opposed by them. There are no reptiles which come anywhere near fitting into the 'domesticated' category by their definition (and most other peoples') and all of the animals they encourage the keeping of have been domesticated for thousands of years. Reptiles are a long way away from that and not even one species of reptile comes anywhere near being accepted by them.

There are other groups which do seek a complete ban on all pets, cats and dogs included, and while some of these have some power, none have as much as the RSPCA, as least in Australia. Some of these groups have complete 'no contact between animals and humans' policies, and yes, that means we would all be vegan.


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## moosenoose (Dec 15, 2009)

.....But Don Burke loves us! ..........8)


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## SnakeyTroy (Dec 15, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> .....But Don Burke loves us! ..........8)


 
what's Don burke got to do with it?


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## moosenoose (Dec 15, 2009)

SnakeyTroy said:


> what's Don burke got to do with it?



Lots!


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## derekm (Dec 17, 2009)

Weezer said:


> i just don't want any coming out party to jump straight into battle and be seen as antagonist towards any of the animal rights groups, the EPA or Feds when p---ing them off is only going to steel any resolve to destroy us. If we go in with a truly transparent agenda, and a willingness to give the EPA whatever they need to allow us to keep on truckin' , then they will not have an argument.


I agree. One of the advantages that we want governments and other interested groups to see in our approach is that it will be easier for them to find people with whom they can discuss reptile keeping that are democratically and transparently representative of the keeping community. Just as important for accountable public servants and the officers of publicly funded organisations, if our organisation is structured well, they will be easily able to *demonstrate *to their management and critics that they have been engaging a genuinely representative body.

Good to see the discussion still flowing and some definite meeting plans taking shape!!!  I have been off the net for a few days.


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## pistachio117 (Dec 17, 2009)

Doesn't sound good for keepers in the US! It would be a better idea if they restricted animals and/or introduced permits to keep them I think...


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## derekm (Apr 18, 2010)

I've been off the forum since Xmas. Did the idea for a representative body die, or is activity happening off-forum?


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## krusty (Apr 20, 2010)

so is there any word on what happend in the U.S or was it just a load of BS.


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## M-Van86 (Apr 27, 2010)

As I understand it, the legislation in the US was proposed in response to things like Reticulated Pythons becoming a well established invasive species in the Florida Everglades. Things like Corns were not on the list.

I think in that, it's sorta like our existing laws that ban the important and ownership of foreign specieis by members of the general public for fear of them becoming invasive (ala the infamous Cane Toad). 

I feel our existing wildlife laws, where we have to get a permit and abide by rules (that include lodging returns listing the animals in our possession and allowing departmental officials to inspect the housing of our animals), put us in a slightly better position then the reptile owners of the US - indeed perhaps if regulation had been tighter then that act would never have been proposed. Still I think our interest in 'minority' pets certainly makes us a little more vulnerable to the campaigns of animal rights groups...


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## cris (Apr 27, 2010)

M-Van86 said:


> As I understand it, the legislation in the US was proposed in response to things like Reticulated Pythons becoming a well established invasive species in the Florida Everglades. Things like Corns were not on the list.




Corn Snakes are native to North America.


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## M-Van86 (Apr 27, 2010)

cris said:


> Corn Snakes are native to North America.


 Exactly my point, since the title implied a total ban on Snakes in the US.


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## Reptilelover09 (May 2, 2010)

Sel said:


> Wasnt there a small child killed not long ago by a Boa? Could that have something to do with it ..maybe ?
> Its very sad, why all of a sudden have they decided to ban them?


 
Im sure People have been killed by other animals before even dogs but they dont take them away from us do they?? Why should they take such a beautiful aniamal away from the people that actually care about them?? I think this is wrong and we should be able to keep whatever pets we like as long as we dont neglect them and a look after them properly. So if the animal rights are wanting to take the snakes away from us how is this saving the animals when the just want to go and put them down????


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## M-Van86 (May 2, 2010)

Again, the ban is on non-native species to protect the country's eco-systems. It's not a total ban on snakes, hence if similar legislation was proposed here it wouldn't make any difference to us (cause there are already laws in place that stop us getting non-native species).


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