# Jags, Jags, JAGS or rpm, rpm, RPM



## Kanga-Who (Sep 23, 2010)

There has been several posts of late about "jags" and or "rpms". It would seem that both terms refer to the same or similar lines of reptiles.

It seems like the term "RPM" has been coined in Oz whereas overseas they are called "jags"

My question is, should we in Oz continue to use both terms which can be confusing or should we join the rest of the world and go with the word jag.

Another question, I'm told that "RPM" stands for reduced pattern ?????????????

The attached pic was emailed to me by a friend, it's only about 9 months old


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 23, 2010)

We like to call them genetic reduced pattern carpets, that is after all exactly what they are. All these names like caramel orange pepper etc. makes me think that we as Aussies love to follow the way that Americans name their morphs! Surely we can do better when it comes to making up names for morphological variants. The same goes for tigers, they are striped animals! Am I just being over technical about the whole thing?


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## SamNabz (Sep 23, 2010)

I agree with Nicole...after all the Americans can't even pronounce or spell Caramel


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## waruikazi (Sep 23, 2010)

You can call them whatever you want.


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## AM Pythons (Sep 23, 2010)

stripe to stripe= striped, tiger to tiger= super tiger. a bit different to a normal striped jungles imo.. but im with you on the rpm/jag thing.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 23, 2010)

Why tiger? It should be dorsal striped for striped and dorso lateral striped for tiger! Sorry, just me being technical again. Maybe it's easier to just use words that everybody can understand.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 23, 2010)

Kanga-Who: Is that a barramundi jag or a Simon stone jag?


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## AM Pythons (Sep 23, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Kanga-Who: Is that a barramundi jag or a Simon stone jag?



or someone else's? we would love to know...lol..


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## pythrulz (Sep 23, 2010)

RPM Reduced Pattern Morph or Jag same thing nice snake Kanga who


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## The Devil (Sep 23, 2010)

Have to agree, all these names, tiger,orange pepper, reduced pattern ect confuse me. I'd like to see a jag called a JAG...


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## wokka (Sep 23, 2010)

Does Jag define an appearance and its genetic heretability, whereas Reduced pattern refers to appearance which may, or may not be heretable?


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## Perko (Sep 23, 2010)

Is there only 1-2 lines?



CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Kanga-Who: Is that a barramundi jag or a Simon stone jag?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 23, 2010)

Good question Wokka. Jag is just a name that was given to the expression of the phenotype caused by the genetic mutation. Genetics are involved in both the jag and reduced pattern look.


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## ezekiel86 (Sep 23, 2010)

so whats the out come  lol


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## The Devil (Sep 23, 2010)

CraigP said:


> Is there only 1-2 lines?



As far as I understand most if not all originated from Simon. Although there has been talk for a couple of years about some smuggled ones.....


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## Bez84 (Sep 23, 2010)

Whats this theres smuggled jag blood in our RPM oh no say it aint so lol.


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## waruikazi (Sep 23, 2010)

The Devil said:


> As far as I understand most if not all originated from Simon. *Although there has been talk for a couple of years about some smuggled ones..*...



:shock:


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## The Devil (Sep 23, 2010)

Bez84 said:


> Whats this theres smuggled jag blood in our RPM oh no say it aint so lol.



I KNOW, it's terrible, smuggled jags, smuggled greens and smuggled just about anything and everything else.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 23, 2010)

O devil, this cant be true?


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## D3pro (Sep 23, 2010)

You mean to tell me that sarong GTP's aren't naturally from Australia? lol


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## Bez84 (Sep 23, 2010)

I always thought it was very believable that we have accomplished so much with our RPM's in such a short time span....with our own home grown stock.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 23, 2010)

I think its irrelevant what we all would prefer to call or name different pattern morphs that originate overseas .
That right goes to the original breeder who produced the morph . 

I find it rather funny how people would like to change names for morphs that has been in herpetoculture throughout the world previously .
Not that we should follow blindly in others foot steps?
and if new ozzie morphs are produced then the breeder can name them as he sees fit.

But windging about names of morphs that have already come into herprticulture is kind of petty if you ask me.

The names all sound good to me , ie albinos , jags, tigers, zebras, super zebras , caramels,super caramels and any combination of these Carpet Python morphs are totally stunning .

OR you can breed your own distinctive new morph and then you get to name it what ever you like lol
and enjoy being bagged on here lol

my 2 cents

cheers
Roger


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## Colin (Sep 23, 2010)

I agree roger.. personally I call them rpm's as this is the name the breeder of my stock calls them..

I just call these one's "het for albino"


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 23, 2010)

Stunning RPM het for albino you got there Col ,,,,
I like the name RPM too ,
its so easy for me to understand .
Roger


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 23, 2010)

i'll have to come up with a name for this little het darwin i bred then.any ideas? i keep getting told i can't call it the "ugly little grey thing".


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## Kurto (Sep 23, 2010)

Colin said:


> I just call these one's "het for albino"


 

My Mrs and my wallet are already hating that name!


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## Colin (Sep 23, 2010)

thanks roger 



slimebo said:


> i'll have to come up with a name for this little het darwin i bred then.any ideas? i keep getting told i can't call it the "ugly little grey thing".



geez that ones coming along great simon


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## D3pro (Sep 23, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i'll have to come up with a name for this little het darwin i bred then.any ideas? i keep getting told i can't call it the "ugly little grey thing".


 
Super silver stone Darwins lol


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## ShaunMorelia (Sep 23, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i'll have to come up with a name for this little het darwin i bred then.any ideas? i keep getting told i can't call it the "ugly little grey thing".


 
Will be nice to see if its inheritable (if thats the correct word to be used)


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 23, 2010)

The_S_Word said:


> Will be nice to see if its inheritable (if thats the correct word to be used)


 
hopefully find out in 3 -6 years


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 23, 2010)

Simon to me that female looks hypo and axanthic , good luck with proving her genetics .
What about a platinum darwin ? 
cheers
Roger


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 23, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Simon to me that female looks hypo and axanthic , good luck with proving her genetics .
> What about a platinum darwin ?
> cheers
> Roger


 
platinum darwin sounds better than aluminium darwin.best i have heard so far.


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## reptileaddiction (Sep 23, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i'll have to come up with a name for this little het darwin i bred then.any ideas? i keep getting told i can't call it the "ugly little grey thing".


 
Why not ULGT then? Then the name kinda looks like _ugly_ too, like the brand ****. That being said I don't think it's ugly Simon.


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## Sdaji (Sep 23, 2010)

That's a very interesting little baby, Slimebo  Good luck with it


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## turtle (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm pretty sure Simons Jags are only a really small percent of what's out there and I can guarantee none of my Jags came from his stock. Mine have neuro problems and all so this guarantees me they are true Jags."Puts flame suit on"


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 23, 2010)

Sdaji said:


> That's a very interesting little baby, Slimebo  Good luck with it


cheers mate.she will be a work in progress.not the best feeder,she only eats rats without fur on them.very frustrating.hope she grows out of that soon.
cheers
simon


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## Perko (Sep 23, 2010)

Or het for should be in my collection!!
Looking good Col



Colin said:


> I agree roger.. personally I call them rpm's as this is the name the breeder of my stock calls them..
> 
> I just call these one's "het for albino"


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## AM Pythons (Sep 23, 2010)

turtle said:


> I'm pretty sure Simons Jags are only a really small percent of what's out there and I can guarantee none of my Jags came from his stock. Mine have neuro problems and all so this guarantees me they are true Jags."Puts flame suit on"



got any pics? would love to see some other lines..


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## wokka (Sep 23, 2010)

So is the heretability of the appearance reflected by the name or is it merely a phenotypic discription?


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## The Devil (Sep 23, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> O devil, this cant be true?



I know, I know, I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news but that's the way it is..........

I thought the island of Sarong was somewhere up near Dunk Island....am I wrong?????


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## ihaveherps (Sep 23, 2010)

wokka.... rpms are jags owned by dyslexics.... the end.... they are jags.... cant make it any clearer really.


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## turtle (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm sure others would agree that Jags have a definate phenotypic appearance compared to RPMs.. I personally think their eyes are a give away but not necessarily..


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## The Devil (Sep 23, 2010)

A pic of one that Barra and myself did last season......


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## Kurto (Sep 23, 2010)

Nice one Nev!


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## Moreliavridis (Sep 23, 2010)

Good luck with that little guy slimebo hopefully you can prove it. They are looking the goods Colin.


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## AM Pythons (Sep 23, 2010)

nice Nev.. rpm/tiger?


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## AM Pythons (Sep 23, 2010)

slimbo the term 'TUNA' is what the yanks are calling silver type coastals... maybe 'Barra-Kuta' or 'barramundi" maybe for top end silver coastals...


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## The Devil (Sep 23, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> nice Nev.. rpm/tiger?



Hell I don't know....thinking of calling it a silverback......


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 23, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> slimbo the term 'TUNA' is what the yanks are calling silver type coastals... maybe 'Barra-Kuta' or 'barramundi" maybe for top end silver coastals...


 
i cant say that TUNA excites me too much.i might have at start a little competition to name it.maybe put up a pair of this coming season hets (sibs to the ugly little grey thing)as a prize,or something like that.can i do that on this site colin.
cheers
simon


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## byron_moses (Sep 23, 2010)

The Devil said:


> Hell I don't know....thinking of calling it a silverback......


 what ever u call it nev it is stunning


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## AM Pythons (Sep 23, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i cant say that TUNA excites me too much.i might have at start a little competition to name it.maybe put up a pair of this coming season hets (sibs to the ugly little grey thing)as a prize,or something like that.can i do that on this site colin.
> cheers
> simon


great idea...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 23, 2010)

Devil: Is that one of his high percentage jungle mixes? Have to be careful with these names now.


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## trickedoutz31 (Sep 23, 2010)

i think that we should stay with rpm and the rest of the world can catch up with us and drop jag cause they are australian pythons after all


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## Bushfire (Sep 23, 2010)

From what I heard the differnces are:
- RPM
Breed two sidling rpm together and all in the clutch will look the same or similar to parents
Breed over other species and all look like varying characteristics to parents (average looking hybrids) with no special patterning
No neuro problems

-Jags
Breed the two sidlings together and get some dead leut. things 
Breed over other species and get a some very unusual weird looking patterns
Neuro problems occur to verying degrees

The two lines no doubt would have crossed it some point in an attempt to get rid of the neuro problems. Probably more differences but thats from what I gather; Im not particularly interested in getting any of them so havent looked into it all in greater detail.


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## Colin (Sep 24, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i cant say that TUNA excites me too much.i might have at start a little competition to name it.maybe put up a pair of this coming season hets (sibs to the ugly little grey thing)as a prize,or something like that.can i do that on this site colin.
> cheers
> simon




your best off asking slateman about this first simon.. either by pm or via the support centre


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## The Devil (Sep 24, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Devil: Is that one of his high percentage jungle mixes? Have to be careful with these names now.



Now that's a new one, a high percentage jungle. I gotta go back to or maybe go to school to keep up with all these new name.
The mother of that "silverback" was a very nice julattan jungle.


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## AM Pythons (Sep 24, 2010)

there are 50% jungle rpm's, & 75% jungle rpm's, i dont think anyone has done an 88% jungle in oz yet... i could be wrong(i have been many times)...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 24, 2010)

God only knows what the percentages of influence these snakes have! Can we call them snakes? At least we know they are snakes! Devil: I think we might have a goldenback, brother to the silverback, in our collection!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 24, 2010)

Turtle.....

I have been told that there are numerous other lines of Jags out there. However to date not one person has been able to show me a Jag that didnt come from either Simon or myself. 

I even sent text messages with photos to a few friends in Sydney last year, 2-3 weeks later I got calls from other herpers offering me Jags. I asked for photos and the funny thing was, the pics of the so called for sale jags were my own snakes........

pics or they dont exist........


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 24, 2010)

The Devil said:


> A pic of one that Barra and myself did last season......



The parents that produced this RPM/JAG look like they will succesfully reproduce again this season, the father is the WHITE RPM/JAG I have posted before and looking at that juvenile and others from the same pairing I am starting to think they are possible axanthics......

It looks like I will breed ALBINO RPM/JAGS this season, so in time I will try for SNOW carpets and SNOW RPM/JAGS, so its only a matter of time to prove it out.......


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## deebo (Sep 24, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> I even sent text messages with photos to a few friends in Sydney last year, 2-3 weeks later I got calls from other herpers offering me Jags. I asked for photos and the funny thing was, the pics of the so called for sale jags were my own snakes........


 
How did their prices compare? =)


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 24, 2010)

lmfao........cant remember.....


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## CodeRed (Sep 25, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Turtle.....
> 
> I have been told that there are numerous other lines of Jags out there. However to date not one person has been able to show me a Jag that didnt come from either Simon or myself.
> 
> ...


 
Barra, there are definitely other jag lines out there. My guess is some of those keeper just dont want to show what they have just yet. Be patient.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 25, 2010)

I believe the same goes for the other morphs! Don't tell me they are not here yet. I'm not quite sure how zebras and granites will be explained to the authorities though?


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## AM Pythons (Sep 25, 2010)

word is there are zebra's about already...


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## ShaunMorelia (Sep 25, 2010)

I think Zebras could be explained, but granites on the other hand....that might be little harder.


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## waruikazi (Sep 25, 2010)

Harder than jags?



The_S_Word said:


> I think Zebras could be explained, but granites on the other hand....that might be little harder.


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## The Devil (Sep 25, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> The parents that produced this RPM/JAG look like they will succesfully reproduce again this season, the father is the WHITE RPM/JAG I have posted before and looking at that juvenile and others from the same pairing I am starting to think they are possible axanthics......
> 
> It looks like I will breed ALBINO RPM/JAGS this season, so in time I will try for SNOW carpets and SNOW RPM/JAGS, so its only a matter of time to prove it out.......



What's this ?????another variant to try and remember......a SNOW carpet and/or SNOW PRM, please explain!!!!!!! I see someone mentioned a ZEBRA type jag, is that a black snake with white stripes or a white snake with black stripes??????


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## junglepython2 (Sep 25, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Harder than jags?


 
Haha that's what I was thinking.


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## D3pro (Sep 25, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Harder than jags?


 
Well their all native animals... lol *d3pro deviously looks from side to side*


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## impulse reptiles (Sep 25, 2010)

The_S_Word said:


> I think Zebras could be explained, but granites on the other hand....that might be little harder.


 
Definitely since they are full blood IJs.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 25, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> Barra, there are definitely other jag lines out there. My guess is some of those keeper just dont want to show what they have just yet. Be patient.



I have been patient and still nobody has come up with the goods. I know quite a few well connected keepers in Sydney and Melbourne and they too have not seen other lines. SMOKE and MIRRORS........


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## mungus (Sep 25, 2010)

Barra,
Where did your first jag line come from ?


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## Ramsayi (Sep 25, 2010)

There is going to be thousands of them for sale this coming season. :lol:


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## CodeRed (Sep 25, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> I have been patient and still nobody has come up with the goods. I know quite a few well connected keepers in Sydney and Melbourne and they too have not seen other lines. SMOKE and MIRRORS........


 
They are definitely here, I have personally seen and held them.


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## The Devil (Sep 25, 2010)

Might be like the albino BHP's I hear stories about a couple of times a year.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 25, 2010)

Or about the albino viridis! Although I have seen them!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 25, 2010)

mungus said:


> Barra,
> Where did your first jag line come from ?


 
Mine were from sxr's first breeding of them....


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## Perko (Sep 25, 2010)

We would all be a little nieve if we thought only hundreds of greens were smuggled and nothing else.
Just because there not showing up on APS (few thousand members) you cant rule out them not being in the rest of the herp community.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 25, 2010)

Ramsayi said:


> There is going to be thousands of them for sale this coming season. :lol:


 
I beg to differ, I keep hearing this but its simply not the case. Sure its a co dom morph, but the reality is you only get half a clutch at best. 
eg RPM/JAG to a Jungle you get an average of 12 eggs, 5-6 of those will be RPM/JAGS if you hatch 100%. Thats alot of snake to get thousands....... There will be around 5-6 keepers maximum that will breed them this season and myself and sxr are amongst them. 

Also what I keep hearing is people will cross them over the biggest coastal they can find and produce 50 eggs. OK this will happen, but all it will do is produce 20 or so very average Coastal RPM/JAGS. Its quality not quantity........


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 25, 2010)

CraigP said:


> We would all be a little nieve if we thought only hundreds of greens were smuggled and nothing else.
> Just because there not showing up on APS (few thousand members) you cant rule out them not being in the rest of the herp community.


 
Im sure there are others outhere, but they are few and far between..........As said I have put the word around through a number of very well well connected herpers and nobody came up with the goods......


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## waruikazi (Sep 25, 2010)

CraigP said:


> We would all be a little nieve if we thought only hundreds of greens were smuggled and nothing else.
> Just because there not showing up on APS (few thousand members) you cant rule out them not being in the rest of the herp community.



We would also be a little nieve to think that nothing got smuggled out such as albinos. Never let the law get in the way of making a few bucks.


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## CodeRed (Sep 25, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Or about the albino viridis! Although I have seen them!


 
hahaha, they went through so many hands that I'm surprised there are herpers out there that haven't seen them LOL


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## CodeRed (Sep 25, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Im sure there are others outhere, but they are few and far between..........As said I have put the word around through a number of very well well connected herpers and nobody came up with the goods......


 
Comeon barra, if you wanted to keep something quiet would you tell those "well connected" herpers LOL


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## byron_moses (Sep 25, 2010)

not to mention what the breeders decide to hold back


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## AM Pythons (Sep 25, 2010)

so whats going to be the going price this year? same as last year or because there is more around- less?.. it could be the differents between buying 1 or 2-3 this year.. rough idea?


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## waruikazi (Sep 25, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> so whats going to be the going price this year? same as last year or because there is more around- less?.. it could be the differents between buying 1 or 2-3 this year.. rough idea?



There's going to be a price crash because there are so many being produced this year and because of the economy and the vibe.


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## D3pro (Sep 25, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> There's going to be a price crash because there are so many being produced this year and because of the economy and the vibe.


 
Ah yes, the economy... I predict the value of scales will be down 40% next year lol....

But yeah I agree... The more there is the less they are, and being that it's a co-dom trait, it's easy to produce large quantities fast... 
I guess the question is... what will be next?

Maybe the Super Tiger Jaguar Pythons? (lol at the name)


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## mungus (Sep 26, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Mine were from sxr's first breeding of them....



So sxr were the first to introduce this line in Australia........
How did they get the Jag Trait ?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Sep 26, 2010)

Mungus
You would have to ask sxr that......I dont want to speculate on their behalf......


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 27, 2010)

fusion said:


> Definitely since they are full blood IJs.



Given that IJ's are M. s. variegata, I don't think it would be a huge stretch at all to have them pass as Darwins in a generation or two. A bit longer maybe given the recessive nature of that particular trait but is likely to happen none the less. Depending on how long they have been on Aussie shores already (who would know), it could conceivably be any time!

Agreed Barra, quality not quantity matters. While there may indeed be big numbers, ordinary quality RPM's (or what the heck ever anyone wants to call them!) will simply not move like the animals displaying better examples of this particular mutation.


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## Ozzie Python (Sep 27, 2010)

mungus said:


> So sxr were the first to introduce this line in Australia........
> How did they get the Jag Trait ?


 


BARRAMUNDI said:


> Mungus
> You would have to ask sxr that......I dont want to speculate on their behalf......


 
I'd love to hear from simon how they came about. I highly doubt he would jump on a forum and try to explain it - it would only end in a big debate between the jag lovers and haters. 

Whatever he did to get them i think he deserves a little pat on the back, great looking animals and they are only going to get better with time.


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## D3pro (Sep 27, 2010)

I asked that question to Simon, got a good answer... but I would rather you guys ask him in person lol


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## kenneally1 (Sep 28, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> slimbo the term 'TUNA' is what the yanks are calling silver type coastals... maybe 'Barra-Kuta' or 'barramundi" maybe for top end silver coastals...


 
The original TUNA, as in "bumblebee Tuna" refers to Diamond x coastal as far as i can remember. And TUNA II is an 06 unknown high percentage diamond X owned by Luke snell... here's a link to his latest clutch Some 2010 75% Tuna II Updates

regards
Nigel


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## AM Pythons (Sep 28, 2010)

View attachment 165720


kenneally1 said:


> The original TUNA, as in "bumblebee Tuna" refers to Diamond x coastal as far as i can remember. And TUNA II is an 06 unknown high percentage diamond X owned by Luke snell... here's a link to his latest clutch Some 2010 75% Tuna II Updates
> 
> regards
> Nigel



here is my 75% diamond.. we call them intergrades...


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## impulse reptiles (Sep 28, 2010)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Agreed Barra, quality not quantity matters. While there may indeed be big numbers, ordinary quality RPM's (or what the heck ever anyone wants to call them!) will simply not move like the animals displaying better examples of this particular mutation.


 
i think at this point in time, quality doesn't really matter too much to people as most just want the co -dominant gene to put into there projects ,but yes in time when more are bred the quality over quantity rule will apply and people will want the better looking jags.

Very nice snake A.M. pythons , are you breeding that one this year?


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## Australis (Sep 29, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> here is my 75% diamond.. we call them intergrades...



I don't think intergrade is really the term used in Australia, unless its a natural thing. 
% animal = cross 
Mid north coast NSW Carpet = intergrade.


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## AM Pythons (Sep 29, 2010)

fusion said:


> i think at this point in time, quality doesn't really matter too much to people as most just want the co -dominant gene to put into there projects ,but yes in time when more are bred the quality over quantity rule will apply and people will want the better looking jags.
> 
> Very nice snake A.M. pythons , are you breeding that one this year?



thanks.. not this year... quality matters to me, i want be buying sub-standard rpm's to breed with, only the best available..


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## sphinxsco (Sep 29, 2010)

*Diplay pic*






Kanga-Who said:


> There has been several posts of late about "jags" and or "rpms". It would seem that both terms refer to the same or similar lines of reptiles.
> 
> It seems like the term "RPM" has been coined in Oz whereas overseas they are called "jags"
> 
> ...


The one in my display pic belongs to a friend of mine,it is very cute.


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