# The problems facing GTP's



## Greenmad (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi everyone i would like to share a article that was written by two australians that have been researching GTPs here and overseas.
They have seen first hand what is happening with the amount of illegal trade overseas with these beautiful animals and wanted to share these pictures and there article.

The pictures below are all wild animals that are in a bad way due to importers.


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## Flaviruthless (Aug 15, 2012)

It's beyond belief. I just can't imagine having so little respect for another animal. Poor snakes.


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## katjase (Aug 15, 2012)

dont know what to say exept i would love to have the people responsible sent to my place we have 40 acers, and a back hoe,they can dig there own grave.


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## Marzzy (Aug 15, 2012)

That's gross


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## No-two (Aug 15, 2012)

These are the people you have to thank for your pretty coloured non Australian chondros.


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## Wild~Touch (Aug 15, 2012)

Heartbreaking


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## daveandem2011 (Aug 15, 2012)

Anything for a dollar makes me sick:evil:


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## moussaka (Aug 15, 2012)

I feel physically ill.


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## pharskie (Aug 15, 2012)

I have a mate who keeps elapids who im sure would be keen to let these people and said elapids loose in a locked room


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## Flexxx (Aug 15, 2012)

Its terrable how far people will go to make a quick cash. Who and why would want to get animals this way, they dont look ilke they will last too long, its unfortunate theres scum out there that do this.


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## whyme (Aug 15, 2012)

Where do most of these gtp's end up? Europe, aus, or USA, etc?


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## Greenmad (Aug 15, 2012)

whyme said:


> Where do most of these gtp's end up? Europe, aus, or USA, etc?



Everywhere, they end up in snake farms overseas and sold off as farm bred.


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## whyme (Aug 15, 2012)

Greenmad said:


> Everywhere, they end up in snake farms overseas and sold off as farm bred.


So is that a legal trade to the U.S or europe. Or are they smuggled?


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## Retic (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm not sure why people even bother with WC animals with the number of CB available. I wouldn't touch a WC Chondro to be honest unless it was imported by a reputable importer.


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## rvcasa (Aug 15, 2012)

whyme said:


> So is that a legal trade to the U.S or europe. Or are they smuggled?



I think the only country with restrictions (that im aware off) is AUS. Otherwise they're common in USA, UK etc. even AUS protected species like Womas...

I saw condros x carpets in USA and guy was talking about starting condros x balls...

If there's demand, there as to be a supplier and I believe that's the problem!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bryce (Aug 15, 2012)

Absolutely terrible what they do to these amazing animals. We can't stress enough, do not buy WC animals.


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## Greenmad (Aug 15, 2012)

Bryce said:


> Absolutely terrible what they do to these amazing animals. We can't stress enough, do not buy WC animals.



Bryce the link is under the pictures i supplied at the start of this thread.

Here it is again.


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## Bryce (Aug 15, 2012)

Cheers, i could not see it.


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## CrystalMoon (Aug 15, 2012)

Humans.... the cruelest species on the planet


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## Renenet (Aug 15, 2012)

Appalling, awful suffering; and totally unnecessary. Humans make me so mad sometimes.:evil::evil::evil:


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## Retic (Aug 16, 2012)

Many countries have restrictions. 



rvcasa said:


> I think the only country with restrictions (that im aware off) is AUS. Otherwise they're common in USA, UK etc. even AUS protected species like Womas...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## caliherp (Aug 16, 2012)

This makes me sick. How in the world would any one be able to do this to any creature. Id love a couple minutes alone in a sealed room with the people who did this. As far as imports, unfortunately the American market is fluded with imports. They sell quick to. You can get a farmed red Biak neo for 250$ usd.(lowest i have seen) 450$usd on the high side. Unfortunately with thoes prices i dont see I do not see the imports slowing down. I agree with everyone cb is the only way to go. i would much rather spend 1000 on a good blood line then 250$ on a farmed neo.


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## Umbral (Aug 16, 2012)

Excuse my ignorance, how were foreign GTPs allowed into Australia? Or were they illegally brought in?


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## caliherp (Aug 16, 2012)

Umbral said:


> Excuse my ignorance, how were foreign GTPs allowed into Australia? Or were they illegally brought in?


From what little info I gatherd I think they were smuggled in. But don't quote me on this, because i haven't dug into this subject to much. As it doesn't apply to me.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2012)

Umbral said:


> Excuse my ignorance, how were foreign GTPs allowed into Australia? Or were they illegally brought in?



That's correct, and there should be an "are" rather than a "were," because it's still happening here. Even though GTPs are being bred in good numbers here now, there are still many profteers out there wanting to make a quick buck by buying cheap in Thailand and smuggling into Oz. Members should be aware too, that it's not only GTPs, the market is driven by the desire of everyday keepers to have something unique, so each and every one of the fancy overseas-bred morphs that turns up here has likely had some considerable indignity forced upon it in transit. Admittedly the animals are probably better kept at the other end, but the message is the same - once these things become commodities from which people can make money, eventually the animals are the ones which suffer.

I heard a rumour the other day that there was another load of GTPs coming in from O/S to be dumped on the Oz market - while there are bargain hunters in the market place, the smuggling won't stop...

Jamie


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## Umbral (Aug 16, 2012)

Ok so my next question: why do people with this knowledge advertise non-native GTPs and why is it accepted?I realise that some prominent members here have non-native GTPs and sell them as such. I don't want to start an argument I'm just trying to understand how they became accepted in Australian collections.


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## Flaviruthless (Aug 16, 2012)

Umbral said:


> Ok so my next question: why do people with this knowledge advertise non-native GTPs and why is it accepted?I realise that some prominent members here have non-native GTPs and sell them as such. I don't want to start an argument I'm just trying to understand how they became accepted in Australian collections.



Because there was an amnesty in NSW that allowed keepers with non-native GTP's to legally put them on license, therefore there are some exotics that are legal. Also, in QLD you can apply to have an 'international' addition on your license that allows you to keep non-native greens that are the progeny of the legal exotics on license. 

This is my understanding of it anyway.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2012)

The understanding of the relative differences between Australian and non-Australian GTPs is a fairly recent phenomenon - maybe only being understood for the past 15 years or so. Prior to that GTPs were GTPs, Stimson's were Stimson's, Womas were Womas and so on. The increasing "sophistication" of the market has meant that in order to sell or obtain something "different," there has to be distinctions made between regional variations of the same species.

In effect, the law says you can keep Chondros, and taxonomically there is no distinction made between regionally variable examples of the species (yet...), so a Chondro is a Chondro regardless of where it came from - and if you acquired it legally (say as a hatchling from a licenced keeper), then you're covered. That's as I understand it.

It wasn't really until Greg Maxwell wrote his excellent book that breeding took off routinely in this country - prior to that, breeding was very hit-and-miss, so in order to appease demand for these snakes, many were smuggled into Oz. I'd be surprised if it doesn't still go on to some extent, but must be a lot reduced with increased scrutiny of travellers.

The advent of a regular supply of Australian GTPs is pretty recent, and we owe a debt of gratitude to Michael Cermak and a couple of others who have really pioneered the work with Aussie GTPs.

Jamie


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## Skelhorn (Aug 16, 2012)

That actually made me feel a little sick, any animal in an uncomfortable situation is disheartning but that, thats on a level of its own!


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## Umbral (Aug 16, 2012)

That makes a lot of sense, thank you Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2012)

Umbral said:


> That makes a lot of sense, thank you Jamie.



You're welcom Umbral ! I should ahve mentioned, as another respondent has, that Qld is currently the only jurisdiction where non-Aussies are noted in collections, and I guess it's because of the taxonomic non-distinction that this is allowed. If the law says you can keep Morelia viridis, without saying where it must come from, then you can't be breaking any law by keeping "Morelia viridis" as long as you acquired it legally.

I do think that those who openly advertise "Merauke," "Biak," & "Sorong" GTPs in this country are just pushing the boundaries of bureaucratic tolerance a bit too far, and like hybridising (especially of Carpets), will cause bureaucratically problematic issues to be looked at at a national level, rather than state by state. 

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Aug 16, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The advent of a regular supply of Australian GTPs is pretty recent, and we owe a debt of gratitude to Michael Cermak and a couple of others who have really pioneered the work with Aussie GTPs.
> 
> Jamie





and Adrian Hemens.


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## Bushman (Aug 16, 2012)

This is truly shocking! Thanks for posting it up Ryan. It’s a real eye-opener as to what is really going on behind the scenes. 
The large scale poaching and smuggling of _Morelia viridis_ is devastating wild populations, like Kofiau Island. 

The work of Jessica and Daniel in investigating this horrific activity is truly commendable. These intensely dedicated Australian scientists have bravely exposed these well-organized operations. We owe them a huge thankyou for their enormous efforts and extraordinary courage in investigating and tackling this deplorable activity. Take the time to read their article.


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## Snotty (Aug 16, 2012)

I know it may seem shocking, but really if imports were allowed into Australia people would be queuing up to get them also. I suppose I am really pointing out that there is a fair bit of hypocrisy involved, people in Western countries say "OMG how terrible, how can that happen???" but it is the people in those same countries that are buying the stuff. The Indonesians in this case are not even making much money out of it, a few dollars if that for the direct collectors, then sold wholesale out of Jakarta for about 120USD six months later 1200-2000 USD (or more) in Europe and the US. Even for a half dead one there will be a buyer willing to put down 200 just to take the bet that they might be able to save it.

As for the trade in wildlife in general, it is nasty and horrible. Living in SE Asia I can buy just about anything, but in reality the bigger problem is deforestation, since then everything is lost. Right now the sky is smokey and hazy again and will be for the next 2-3 months as the forests of Indonesia and Malaysia burn down to be replaced by Palm Plantations. Basically so that everyone in Sydney, Frankfurt, NY and LA can have nice soaps and cheap plywood to make a new "viv" along with a few leftover animals to put in there.

I am ranting a bit, but there is a lot of hypocrisy involved in all of this.


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## Ralphee (Aug 16, 2012)

I would love to see current figures on this (this is 12 months old now), but with the following quote i doubt anything has changed at all - The stupid things people do to try and earn a dollar with no respect for anything around them 
A recent report submitted by LIPI for the​​​​CITES Asian Snake Trade Workshop (2011) stated that the illegal​trade of snakes in Indonesia was non-existent.


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## DanN (Aug 16, 2012)

Spot on Snotty - you're ranting for sure, but they’re facts nonetheless. You can find another tirade here: Importers are..... in Morelia Viridis Forum Forum

While it is certainly a problem, smuggling green pythons into Australia isn't the main issue. Smuggling is always going to occur in some form, but the issue here is that these snakes are exported from Indonesia in huge numbers as captive-bred - with valid CITES permits. There are three "range states" where green pythons occur naturally - Australia, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea - and it's illegal to export wild green pythons from all of them.

From two of these range states (Australia and PNG) it is also illegal to export greens in any form (wild, ranched, farmed or captive-bred). However, Indonesia allows green pythons that are bred in captivity to be exported for commercial purposes. Obviously it's a hell of a lot easier (and cheaper) to take them from the wild and tell people you bred them in captivity than it is to actually breed them. This is why they are exported legally, because it is impossible for authorities to tell the difference between wild-caught and captive-bred.

Ralphee, with all due respect to the relevant authorities, unfortunately Indonesia doesn't have the capacity to enforce the conservation laws they have in place. Therefore, whether they are aware of illegal practices or not, to save face, they conclude that illegal trade is non-existent - but this is not the case. 

Despite all the work being done to prevent illegal trade, green pythons are, as we speak, being harvested from the wild for the pet trade. It is not the local peoples we should be pointing the finger at; they’re just trying to feed their families. Instead, we should be looking to the large number of wealthy European and American importers that knowingly exploit Indonesia's lack of governance. Without an adequate mechanism in place to prevent these folk trading illegally, surely it is up to the consumer to become educated about the trade and make a conscious choice about what they think is right - because after all, if it wasn't for our demand we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

In regard to the images, local Papuan people aren't trained in the husbandry of reptiles. They're as devastated as we are to see these things because it means they lose money. I'm actually surprised they get as many through as they do in good health... 

Cheers,
Dan


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## Bushman (Aug 16, 2012)

This is a critical point. Smuggling activities like this will continue as long as there is demand. 
Prospective GTP buyers should be very careful to only buy captive bred animals.


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## Greenmad (Aug 16, 2012)

It pretty simple just buy animals that have proof of being bred here in australia, and proof that they have bred them.


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## whyme (Aug 16, 2012)

DanN said:


> Spot on Snotty - you're ranting for sure, but they’re facts nonetheless. You can find another tirade here: Importers are..... in Morelia Viridis Forum Forum
> 
> While it is certainly a problem, smuggling green pythons into Australia isn't the main issue. Smuggling is always going to occur in some form, but the issue here is that these snakes are exported from Indonesia in huge numbers as captive-bred - with valid CITES permits. There are three "range states" where green pythons occur naturally - Australia, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea - and it's illegal to export wild green pythons from all of them.
> 
> ...



Thats what I was looking for. Thanks.


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## Foxoftherose (Aug 17, 2012)

It's odd for me to say this as a herp keeper, but I truly hate the animal trade. My country (the US) is seriously lacking in laws to keep crap like this from happening, makes me so mad... So, is there anything I can do to prevent this, aside from buying only captive bred?


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## caliherp (Aug 17, 2012)

Foxoftherose said:


> It's odd for me to say this as a herp keeper, but I truly hate the animal trade. My country (the US) is seriously lacking in laws to keep crap like this from happening, makes me so mad... So, is there anything I can do to prevent this, aside from buying only captive bred?


I agree with you on some points. I believe we should restrict imports. Not ban them. In regards to what you can do about it, you can try to contact your seniter. Good luck with that though. You will recieve a pre written letter from his or her secretary. I'll be strait up with you though, you will not gain to many herp fans doing so.


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## Bushman (Aug 17, 2012)

Greenmad said:


> It pretty simple just buy animals that have proof of being bred here in australia, and proof that they have bred them.


ay, there's the rub...how do you get proof?


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## Greenmad (Aug 17, 2012)

Bushman said:


> ay, there's the rub...how do you get proof?



Hi Patrick
Pictures of breedings, pictures of eggs hatching etc. Starting this year i will be putting the days newspaper with hatching eggs. 
Personally if i don't see pics of parents mating and eggs hatching i don't buy. I know people can just give pictures etc of animals but the Australian newspaper date in pics says a lot more.


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## Ralphee (Aug 17, 2012)

DanN I agree with you, dont get me wrong, something should be done about this. The people who are catching these animals in the wild are doing what they need to do to feed their families, we might not agree with it, but from what i have read, this is the best way they know to survive.
The attitude of the Indonesia Government of 'we cant do anything about it so deny it' is troublesome, we all know that sweeping things under the rug doesnt fix them, but if you dont have the ability to fix the problem.... perhaps the first step might be to admit there is a problem?
Knowing a few people who work at the airport (AQIS) they do what they can and are good at it, but there are alot of smart smugglers out there too. Its not until you look at the volume of containers that come in on ships, people through airports and illegal boats that simply sail here that you comprehend how difficult it is too stop this kind of thing.
And no matter what we do, we will never stop the 'anyone got any cheap snakes for sale?' and the 'bargain' hunters who dont care where they came from , so long as they are cheap! That is human nature to way too many people (personally i pay $2 for the $1 thing i *need* instead of $1 for the $2 thing thats on sale)
As stated here a few times, so long as the smugglers have a market, they will find a way to do it, all we can do is make it harder and raise awareness to the general public.


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## Bushman (Aug 18, 2012)

They are good ideas, Ryan. This sort of practice should become standard. If buyers can distinguish between smuggled and captive bred effectively, they can choose to only buy captive-bred GTP's.


Greenmad said:


> Hi Patrick
> Pictures of breedings, pictures of eggs hatching etc. Starting this year i will be putting the days newspaper with hatching eggs.
> Personally if i don't see pics of parents mating and eggs hatching i don't buy. I know people can just give pictures etc of animals but the Australian newspaper date in pics says a lot more.


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## ShaneBlack (Aug 18, 2012)

Cbb


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## Bushman (Aug 18, 2012)

What does that mean Shane?


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## Ramsayi (Aug 18, 2012)

Bushman said:


> What does that mean Shane?



Probably means couldn't be bothered.

Hey Shane turn on your PMs.


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## Bushman (Aug 18, 2012)

Thanks Ramsayi.


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## DanN (Aug 18, 2012)

They're all good ideas folks. Here is some more banter on the issue.


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## longqi (Aug 18, 2012)

The only way some localised gtp populations will survive is tourism
In Misool and Kofiau it used to be very easy to see gtps
Within 2 years of canary yellows becoming popular it became very difficult to see any
Both of these islands are small, with few development or environmental changes

Same thing is happening with the latest craze for cyclops gtps
They come from near Jayapura and even the snake catchers are complaining that they cannot fill orders now

Most used to be shipped to Surabaya then to the farms around Jakarta to be processed as farmed
Or else through Balikpapan in Kalimantan which has an international airport with few controls
Manado in Sulawesi will always be a fairly open port too
After a couple of pretty significant busts the pattern is changing with most now being sent through Timor to Jakarta
3 shipments of gtps have been busted recently on this route
The major smuggler has operated with impunity for over 20 years and is untouchable even though he is not Indonesian and lives in Indonesia

As has been already said
You cannot blame the locals
We can only try to teach them that a gtp in a tree can only be sold once
But 100 tourists will pay to see a gtp in a tree rather than in a box at a zoo

Gtps were not commonly used for food skin or medicine in Papua
It is the pet trade that that has a lot to answer for in this particular case

The other byproduct of catching gtps is any other reptile that is seen
With gtps becoming scarcer in many areas other snakes etc are becoming targets because the catchers dont want to go home with empty bags

Only westerners can stop this as it is us who buy the gtps


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## euan (Aug 18, 2012)

An interesting study hopefully more such studies will be done on other species. With the right connections more of the truth about the good side of the animal trade could come out.
Unfortunately the study is flawed, simply because the authors are not involved in trade. Thus the data is not complete. In no way do I say this in a derogatory way. Basically unless you are involved with trade you will rarely get correct data. As an example, CITES commissioned a report on ball pythons many years ago, the author was having difficulty obtaining info from the traders. Luckily I was able to supply a large set of breeding data for him which was instrumental in him being able to make good conclusions.
It is also good to see the inclusion of using eggshells for proof of breeding. I introduced such an idea to the Malagasy CITES authorities ten years ago as a control mechanism for breeding operations.
As to some comments stated by members, better to understand before commenting, especially when emotions are in play


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## DanN (Aug 18, 2012)

Hi Longqi,

I'm not sure tourism is the way either. Are tourists really going to pay to go all the way to Kofiau to not see a snake? It's a tough one. Also, unfortunately, the trade routes are not nearly as elaborate as you suggest. 90% of the greens leaving Papua go directly to Jakarta (or Bali). Therefore, I think less corruption and better enforcement at this one hub would stifle a lot of the trade... wishful thinking I know... but maybe worth a shot?

Euan, can you elaborate on how the data is incomplete? Also, which Malagasy species are regulated through the use of eggshells? Is this method still used there? What data did you provide the ball python report?


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## Bushman (Aug 18, 2012)

DanN said:


> They're all good ideas folks. Here is some more banter on the issue.


Thanks Dan.


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## longqi (Aug 19, 2012)

DanN said:


> Hi Longqi,
> 
> I'm not sure tourism is the way either. Are tourists really going to pay to go all the way to Kofiau to not see a snake? It's a tough one. Also, unfortunately, the trade routes are not nearly as elaborate as you suggest. 90% of the greens leaving Papua go directly to Jakarta (or Bali). Therefore, I think less corruption and better enforcement at this one hub would stifle a lot of the trade... wishful thinking I know... but maybe worth a shot?
> 
> Euan, can you elaborate on how the data is incomplete? Also, which Malagasy species are regulated through the use of eggshells? Is this method still used there? What data did you provide the ball python report?



Been a few good busts on the Jakarta and Bali run in past 2 years so Timor by boat then flight out was the new option for big shipments
Balikpapan has always quietly moved a lot of animals directly to corruption free Singapore

Must agree about Misool and Kofiau as they are not easy to get to so tourism to those spots is very expensive
But mainland Papua is getting easier all the time and although expensive compared to the rest of Indonesia can be cheap once you hit the ground if hotels etc are avoided
There are plenty of places on the mainland with loads of reptiles and fairly easy access, and if those areas preserve the reptiles through tourism other areas will follow the lead hopefully

Corruption is so inbuilt right through Indonesia that it is commented on in every newspaper and tv on a daily basis
But Jakarta Airport has tightened up a lot in the last year or so with a lot of small to medium arrests


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## caliherp (Aug 19, 2012)

DanN said:


> Hi Longqi,
> 
> I'm not sure tourism is the way either. Are tourists really going to pay to go all the way to Kofiau to not see a snake? It's a tough one. Also, unfortunately, the trade routes are not nearly as elaborate as you suggest. 90% of the greens leaving Papua go directly to Jakarta (or Bali). Therefore, I think less corruption and better enforcement at this one hub would stifle a lot of the trade... wishful thinking I know... but maybe worth a shot?
> 
> Euan, can you elaborate on how the data is incomplete? Also, which Malagasy species are regulated through the use of eggshells? Is this method still used there? What data did you provide the ball python report?


I disagree. I think Eco-tourism would be a win win. It would give the natives incentive not to capture and export native fauna, and it well generate money for them. As far as the expenses it may get cheaper if they get a good system in place.


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## Hoplophile (Aug 19, 2012)

A large part of the problem is countries permitting imports...thats where the demand comes from. Wild caught animals are laundered and acquire paperwork to legitimise them. Developing countries will never have the resources to enforce the trade. The US and Europe have more than enough animals to sustain captive breeding within their jurisdictions. Ban new imports and the trade would effectively die overnight leraving a small number illegally imported. US law enforcement dealing with their own illegal trade would significantly alleviate the problem. Their Lacy Act is powerful tool that deals harsh penalties at home.


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## caliherp (Aug 19, 2012)

In my honest opinion importing reptiles is what fules the expansion of herpiculture. Reptiles that are not normally in the trade or is verry unusual can be the next new hottest morph. I hate all there reptiles and all other animals for that matter that illegally imported. I wish a verry limited amount of reptiles can be imported each year. If its regulated strictly by all sided. But we don't live in a perfect world. I honestly things wll change. But I'm not holding my breath. As long as there is beginners and people willing to sell wc and ch reptiles there will be imports.


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## Foxoftherose (Aug 19, 2012)

caliherp said:


> I agree with you on some points. I believe we should restrict imports. Not ban them. In regards to what you can do about it, you can try to contact your seniter. Good luck with that though. You will recieve a pre written letter from his or her secretary. I'll be strait up with you though, you will not gain to many herp fans doing so.



Don't misunderstand me- I don't think it should be shut down either. I just think that some more restrictions are in order. My other hobby is carnivorous plant growing, and poaching is a big issue there. The unregulated trade of any plant or animal is a sore topic with me. I know that there are people who gather and import responsibly, it's just that I hate seeing stuff like the OP posted happening.


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## caliherp (Aug 19, 2012)

Foxoftherose said:


> Don't misunderstand me- I don't think it should be shut down either. I just think that some more restrictions are in order. My other hobby is carnivorous plant growing, and poaching is a big issue there. The unregulated trade of any plant or animal is a sore topic with me. I know that there are people who gather and import responsibly, it's just that I hate seeing stuff like the OP posted happening.


That is exactly what I was trying to say. I also feel the same way. I hate seeing animals imported period but like this especially.


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## DanN (Aug 19, 2012)

Hey Caliherp,

Agreed, in theory it sounds great. Unfortunately, however, it has been trialled all over the world with only very limited success. All good examples relate to large African and American megafauna. These are species that are large, charismatic and easily visible. Thinking about it practically, I cannot think of many places in Papua where anyone but the more intrepid herpers would pay to visit given the difficulty of finding green pythons, for example. Many of these Eco-tourism for conservation ventures have done more harm than good and I'd imagine require a high level of philanthropy to succeed.

Waterrat, hear and agree with what your saying, but surely there are enough greens in captivity around the place to realize the demand.. perhaps not... but that means a lot of snakes are dying before their time given the number that are imported annually..


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## Snotty (Aug 19, 2012)

A long rant since it is a Sunday afternoon.

I know the wild animal trade is emotive, but that is the problem, it is easy to see some photographs of injured snakes and get worked up. However on the scale of things it is a minimal issue. When the whole lot is burnt down and cleared for Palm plantations it becomes irrelevant what snakes were taken. There is nothing left. 

As I mentioned before the fires are starting again and will be with us now till the rainy season comes back about November, sometimes the visibility will drop to a few hundred yards, but since the pictures are boring nobody really gets worked up about that.Nobody seems bothered by the oil and gas contracts awarded in the Aru Islands over the last 12 months which will do far more damage than collecting GTPs will. It is much easier to dream of a V8 (choose your car) in the garage, GTP in the living room and somehow blame the locals in a foreign country.

The Indonesian Government is aware of the problems, but reptile smuggling is about 2371 on the list of daily issues. 231 dead just from Eid Traffic accidents this weekend so far, an outbreak of bird flu in the Riau Islands, seperatists in Aceh and Irian Jaya as always, religious problems in many areas, the police post in Surakarta came under fire last night, Aussie and Brit Tourists in Bali... and on and on. And that is not just Indonesia but that is the daily reality for many countries. 

All of the Indonesians I have ever known are very proud of their country and the wildlife in it, but there are simply limits to what can be done. Poor villagers are just worried about finding dinner for their family for tonight, and middle class Indonesians simply do not have the resources or time to do much either. Most do not have the luxury we do to worry about such things.

To make it worse as I mentioned before there is some serious hypocrisy here, the Indonesians should not allow land clearing, or oil and gas in the Malukus but when I travel back to Australia and get to the East Coast I can fly for a few hours over farmland with only a few patches of bush left. Most of the places I went collecting reptiles as a boy are now under housing estates since everyone wants their 1/4 acre block. Not many in Australia were too bothered in 05 when logging was allowed in one of the last stands left where Superb Parrots nest, destroying 60% of their last nesting habitat. (Barmah) or later in 08 with the few left when NPWS had to be called in as so many people were running them over in cars after they were feeding on grain spilt on the roads.(Too lazy to even slow down while driving or beep their horn - who knows the reasoning there.) 

It is all horrible but there are no easy solutions at all, Indonesians do not want to be poor forever so that collectors can have birds, reptiles and fish to show off to their friends in NY and London. 

Tourism is hardly the answer, Bali, Phuket, Cebu and even Cairns come to mind. Not that many people visit those places to see nature as such. Even Cairns it is a party town and people can tick off 'yep I have seen the reef' - and then go back home and decide they want a marine aquarium for the living room with a "Nemo". Bali and Phuket the only wildlife most are interested in are found in the pubs and beaches.

Even the arguably succesful tourism of Komodo is very dodgy, not to mention the island was basically sold to PKA. In the old days you had to spend days sailing just to get there, which was risky in itself, but at least you could get about. Now it is more like visiting a theme park.

I know many will not like my thoughts, and they are generally not very optimistic, but that is based on 30 years of working with Wildlife and for the last 15 years being based in SE Asia. The only real answer turns out to be education. It was only a generation ago that most Australians thought the only good snake was a dead snake.

For example school programs work well and a % of license fees could go towards that, but on an international scale that would be almost impossible to make work. However on the plus side even small local efforts can make a big difference, from something as simple as showing your neighbour your animals through to more public and schools based programmes.

Regulation does make a difference but it has to be done carefully and sensibly, Australia in the 70's and 80's is a good example where herping was basically an underground activity - more like joining a secret society. The majority of people simply had no idea about those 'slimey' animals. However with deregulation more people became involved and probably in many cases started out because 'it was cool' but then many will also start heading to the library (these days the internet) and learning more, not just about the reptiles but all of the other aspects of the natural world. So there is a tradeoff there, many reptiles die through errors and stupidity in the hands of keepers, but then there is a much greater awareness to balance that.

Regulation only ever works with education alongside it. The wild bird trade and plants come to mind where there is massive regulation but also a much greater awareness of the problem. In some ways the reptile trade is still catching up in that regard. It is much easier to get public attention over a Macaw stuffed in a suitcase compared to a snake.

With GTPs in particular the only real hope is that prices come down to a point where it is no longer economical to take them from the wild. In that regard progress is being made with much more CB happening and a huge leap in understanding husbandry in the last 20 years. Since for wild caught there are simple not the resources to police these things in the originating countries, and by the time they have made it to Jakarta, then through Singapore or direct into Frankfurt - by that stage the paper work is perfect and they are easily reimported to their final destination.(In this case Singapore are only a transhipment point, but are very strict if a i is not dotted it will be seized, but they are also hamstrung in knowing it is a bit dodgy but if the paperwork out of Jakarta is in order there is nothing they can do if it is not breaking international law). 

Ultimately though I think there are much bigger threats than local collection. Nobody seems too bothered by the thought of Oil Exploration in Laurenz NP for example.

Again a very long mixed up rant and probably a bit cynical, but it is something I have dedicated most of my life to. I should also say that Indonesia is just one country, the above would apply to many many countries, from Kenya to the Philippines.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 19, 2012)

A truly excellent post Snotty - covers so many of the bases which are otherwise ignored or just not considered in context. Bloody palm oil plantations... but those who condemn it probably eat products prepared with palm oil every day...

Jamie


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## DanN (Aug 19, 2012)

Snotty said:


> I know many will not like my thoughts, and they are generally not very optimistic



No, they're not very optimistic, but unfortunately they're very true. I couldn't have said it better myself and agree with all your points, thank you.


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## killimike (Aug 19, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Dan, the Australian market is different to that in OS. We don't have the opportunity to acquire WC chondros from different localities like the US and European keepers have, so in that respect, we can point the finger at THEM for supporting the WC business. Back home, we are at the mercy of what the smugglers bring in from the Indo farms, which is invariably a mix lot of who knows what and usually in poor condition. The big import 3 years ago was success because of the low price - nothing else. Now that the latest craze here are red babies which sell for around 3K, another shipment (of red babies) arrived just few weeks ago, only this time from a different place.
> 
> You're right in that there are enough chondros in captivity to meet the demand but it's still "expensive" (in terms of time and effort to get them to feed, etc.) to produce them, hence cheap imports are still a preferred option for those entrepreneurs.



Other than agreeing with everything that's been said about other challenges chondros face, and the general hypocrisy, I was surprised that chondros are coming in so regularly in such large numbers still. I say surprised, but given the price, it makes perfect sense, I guess I had not thought about it since I am not involved in chondros. 

Since some who are into chondros obviously have detailed knowledge of when, how many of, and by deduction, at least partially to whom, these snakes are being imported, is it just bureaucratic hold ups that your tip offs have not resulted in anything being done?


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## Waterrat (Aug 19, 2012)

Tip offs?


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 19, 2012)

killimike said:


> Other than agreeing with everything that's been said about other challenges chondros face, and the general hypocrisy, I was surprised that chondros are coming in so regularly in such large numbers still. I say surprised, but given the price, it makes perfect sense, I guess I had not thought about it since I am not involved in chondros.
> 
> Since some who are into chondros obviously have detailed knowledge of when, how many of, and by deduction, at least partially to whom, these snakes are being imported, is it just bureaucratic hold ups that your tip offs have not resulted in anything being done?



Killimike, those involved in importation don't exactly advertise their activities, and there's a big difference between acting on rumours and actual proveable info. And most of the government instruments dont have the resources to act on every rumour of wrongdoing. 

Jamie


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## Wild~Touch (Aug 19, 2012)

Snotty
Your post is so heartbreakingly true and Thank You for taking the time to explain the big picture as I am sure most modern day reptile keepers have no idea from where their pets originated
Keep up the great words of wisdom
Cheers
Sandee


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## killimike (Aug 19, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Tip offs?





Pythoninfinite said:


> Killimike, those involved in importation don't exactly advertise their activities, and there's a big difference between acting on rumours and actual proveable info. And most of the government instruments dont have the resources to act on every rumour of wrongdoing.
> 
> Jamie



Jamie, I of course agree 100%, your statement makes a lot of sense. I am not sure how to phrase it, but I suppose I mean that those rumours are not 'just' rumours to many people, I'm sure. Who those people are, or how many of them there are, I have no idea.


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## cement (Aug 19, 2012)

Snotty said:


> A long rant since it is a Sunday afternoon.
> 
> Again a very long mixed up rant and probably a bit cynical, but it is something I have dedicated most of my life to. I should also say that Indonesia is just one country, the above would apply to many many countries, from Kenya to the Philippines.



I much prefer to call a spade a spade mate.

The paper was an interesting read... but the whole time while I was reading it (while knowing that Indonesia is one of the most corrupt countries I have ever set foot in), there were no surprises. There are no workable solutions that I can see in the near future, and thats the way it is over there.

The main governing factor however is that individuals of wealthy countries provide a marketplace and this is the powerhead that causes so much destruction. Palm oil being number 1, mining and deforestation etc. 
There is stuff that oozes out of this system all over the place. Humans are just a slow nuclear bomb. Greens just happen to be the flavour today.


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## caliherp (Aug 20, 2012)

Snotty said:


> A long rant since it is a Sunday afternoon.
> 
> I know the wild animal trade is emotive, but that is the problem, it is easy to see some photographs of injured snakes and get worked up. However on the scale of things it is a minimal issue. When the whole lot is burnt down and cleared for Palm plantations it becomes irrelevant what snakes were taken. There is nothing left.
> 
> ...



Iagree with you. Your thoughts arnt really optimistic, but they are realistic. Eco_tourism was just wishfull thinnking on my part.


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## Erebos (Aug 20, 2012)

Greenmad said:


> Hi Patrick
> Pictures of breedings, pictures of eggs hatching etc. Starting this year i will be putting the days newspaper with hatching eggs.
> Personally if i don't see pics of parents mating and eggs hatching i don't buy. I know people can just give pictures etc of animals but the Australian newspaper date in pics says a lot more.



Not a dig here at all Mate but this day and age who buys news papers? Hahaha

And allot of the time breeders miss copulation and just notice there gravid at ovulation. Well that's what happened with a pair of mine this year! So now I'm not a trust worthy breeder? If any hatch that is. 


Cheers Brenton


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## Greenmad (Aug 20, 2012)

Erebos said:


> Not a dig here at all Mate but this day and age who buys news papers? Hahaha
> 
> And allot of the time breeders miss copulation and just notice there gravid at ovulation. Well that's what happened with a pair of mine this year! So now I'm not a trust worthy breeder? If any hatch that is.
> 
> ...




Brenton,
Actually i do buy newspapers for a read and i use them for my animals substrate.lol
A pic at hatching is very easy as it does take them a few days to leave the egg normally. 
As for copulation pictures of them, just aids in the matter of showing the parents to potential buyers. 
As i stated it is* personally* what I'm doing this season. Also when did i say anything about not being a trust worthy breeder.
*Personally* if i was forking out a thousand or more dollars on a animal i would want to know the history and what the parents looked like of the said animal.


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## Erebos (Aug 20, 2012)

No I red the whole thread and basically how I took it as that is all I just used my experience as a example. Was not a dig at all mate just trying to see where the thread was going. First time on the net in a while just catching up 


Cheers Brenton


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## Waterrat (Aug 21, 2012)

Erebos said:


> Not a dig here at all Mate but this day and age who buys news papers?
> 
> 
> Cheers Brenton




I was visiting my daughter and son-in-law the other night
when I asked if I could borrow a newspaper.

'This is the 21st century, old man,' he said.
'We don't waste money on newspapers.
Here, you can borrow my iPad,

I can tell you, that bloody fly never knew what hit it.


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## longqi (Aug 21, 2012)

Snotty you are absolutely correct about education
Only problem is a fairly big one
We do about 2 schools a week here in Bali in the dry season when we are not so busy
International schools are a waste of time because those kids will leave Indonesia when their parents contracts in Indo expire
So we try to concentrate on local schools
With International schools we just bring a few reps and a power point presentation
Easy peasy with no real cost to me except time
Local schools dont have computers so maybe 100 kids get colour printed folder with loads of info and photos etc
Cost me a motza and no funding over this way
Gf is back in Kalimantan trying to set a few educational things up there
But in all honesty I think I wont be able to maintain it unless I win lotto
Yet places like Kalimantan, Papua and Sumatra are the places were ecological environmental and animal education are most critically needed and the locations where it is most needed have the least opportunities for any good schooling

Even in Australia reptiles are a long way down anyones list as a desirable animal to protect or help
In Asia, where 95% are terrified of reptiles they have an even lower chance

Completely agree about Indonesians loving both their country and their wildlife
But poor Indonesians still need to eat and food must come first for them

Kalimantan is especially vulnerable to development because it is so flat
Papua Sulawesi and Sumatra will always have areas where over development is virtually impossible because of the terrain

Westerners, [that means you and me, everyone] have created the markets that are destroying paradise
Only Westerners can help stop it at this point

I still believe in eco tourism as a good tool to help protect areas and animals
Although Tanjing Puting for orangutans is a bit of a scam it is still doing a lot of great work and that area is getting more protected every year


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## Conners (Aug 22, 2012)

Snotty said:


> Again a very long mixed up rant and probably a bit cynical, but it is something I have dedicated most of my life to. I should also say that Indonesia is just one country, the above would apply to many many countries, from Kenya to the Philippines.



Your post was so well thought out - a really excellent contribution to this discussion. Thank you.


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## Womagaunt (Aug 23, 2012)

They treat the animals really bad and with no respect  heres and article that i found pretty interesting if you wanted to have a read- Lax reporting fuels illegal reptile trade | Connect Asia | ABC Radio Australia


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## longqi (Aug 25, 2012)

Womagaunt said:


> They treat the animals really bad and with no respect  heres and article that i found pretty interesting if you wanted to have a read- Lax reporting fuels illegal reptile trade | Connect Asia | ABC Radio Australia



Some of that article is nearly correct in some places but is based on old information
Most snake hunters/dealers know that they get best money for quality animals
Large scale smuggling is big dollars
With big dollars comes the ability to use efficient transport systems to minimise damage to the transported animals
EG in Papua gravid female chondros are prime targets
Let eggs hatch and ship the hatchies from Papua to Jakarta
Simpler to ship because of space requirements with equal returns if they arrive at export farms in good condition
Small shipments often are not properly cared for


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## Bushman (Sep 14, 2012)

I'm seriously doubt that much of the big dollars made my smugglers and importers is put back into improving the quality of life and transport conditions of the smuggled animals. You can also safely bet that no serious veterinary treatment is given to sick and dying animals.


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