# Why are Green Tree Pythons so expensive?



## CGSwans (Jan 22, 2008)

Hey guys, sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question.

Other snakes - notably Womas, Black-headeds and Centralian Carpets - have come down notably in price over recent years. I don't have any (my one Stimson's is the extent of my snake collection for the forseeable future, sadly) but I dream enough to look at the prices every now and again. Womas, in particular, seem to have come down in price over the past three or four years.

My question is simple. Why doesn't simple market economics seem to apply to GTPs? At prices often in excess of $10k, surely demand cannot outstrip supply so drastically? What am I missing?


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## callith (Jan 22, 2008)

From what i have been told they are hard to breed (know someone who didn't even get 10% fertile eggs) and they are rare in the wild and therefor cannot be taken.

But thats only what i've been told, not sure if its true or not


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## spilota_variegata (Jan 22, 2008)

CGSwans said:


> Hey guys, sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question.
> 
> Other snakes - notably Womas, Black-headeds and Centralian Carpets - have come down notably in price over recent years. I don't have any (my one Stimson's is the extent of my snake collection for the forseeable future, sadly) but I dream enough to look at the prices every now and again. Womas, in particular, seem to have come down in price over the past three or four years.
> 
> My question is simple. Why doesn't simple market economics seem to apply to GTPs? At prices often in excess of $10k, surely demand cannot outstrip supply so drastically? What am I missing?



Disposable incomes have become greater over the years. It will be very interesting to see what happens with the price of GTPs over the next 5 years or so. There has been a downward trend in the price of hatchlings but it appears adults are still quite expensive.


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## Frozenmouse (Jan 23, 2008)

same as woma s bhps ect give it some time once a few good blood lines are established and the captive stock numbers increase the price will come down. eventually.


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## Vincent (Jan 23, 2008)

In a lot of cases the price advertised is different to the price it is actually sold for. Most breeders wont tell people this. In my opinion most adults are overpriced, especially when for males only. But they'll remain expensive for a fair while yet because so many people want them. I cant see them being much below $2000 in the next ten years. JMO.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 23, 2008)

While breeding success has improved somewhat (thanks mainly to Greg Maxwell and his generously offered information) there is huge pent-up demand for GTPs, and this will remain the case for quite some time. It is an extraordinarily beautiful species, not difficult to maintain, and many people aspire to own them simply because they are so beautiful.

They are more difficult to breed than most pythons, and while there will be a gradual decline in prices in the years to come, it won't be as spectacular as the price-crash exhibited by rough-scaled pythons in the past 3-4 years. These have proven to be very easily bred, and while they are an interesting snake for specialist keepers, if you don't know what you're looking at, many people would think they were fairly plain carpets. (I don't think of them this way by the way, all you rough-scaled python owners...)

Male GTPs are often more in demand because they are less common it seems and to breed most Morelia it is better to have more males than females.

So, like anything that has become a "commodity," it is simple supply and demand that dictates price. While demand is high, the price will reflect that.

Jamie.


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## djfreshy (Jan 24, 2008)

The thing I dont get is other countries where the GTP are not natives are selling them way below what than what we sell them for!


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## CGSwans (Jan 24, 2008)

djfreshy said:


> The thing I dont get is other countries where the GTP are not natives are selling them way below what than what we sell them for!



That part I understand. Aren't GTPs from New Guinea available as wild caught? That reduces the scarcity greatly.


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## NickM (Jan 25, 2008)

Gtps are not particularily hard to breed. I would take exeption to anything that praises Grex Maxwells book also.

Even here where they are cheap and bred in decent numbers , most breeders still dont understand these snakes. Books alike Maxwells do damage in many regards by perpetuating incorrect information and common myths about this species.

Just look at most of the pictures you see in that book. Virtually all the very unusuall looking animals are still changing color. The overall effect of this is that it gives the fals impression that these animals stay like this into adulthood when in reality almost none do.

Another problem that plagues keepers here, and will in Australia if one takes Maxwells book seriously , in obesity.

I cant count how many posts I have read about enormous clutches with low fertility.

This is a small species that is not designed to lay 30+ eggs, yet we see huge , overfed females routinly lay in excess of 30 eggs, usually with dismal fertility.

Look at some of the pics of adults in Maxwells book, most are obese, and this is the cuase of most of the reproductive problems people have with this species.

Maxwells book is at best a decent guide to keeping them alive but much of it should be viewed with skepticism.

Nick


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## herptrader (Jan 25, 2008)

NickM said:


> Gtps are not particularily hard to breed. I would take exeption to anything that praises Grex Maxwells book also.



What have you got against Greg Maxwell's book?

I think it is one of the most useful books for python breeders around. Greg goes into great detail explaining what works for him. For example he goes though all the techniques he uses to get hatchlings feeding and the order in which he applies them. This is something that so many authors leave out but it is precisely the sort of information that many people need to know. I recommend his books (either the original and the updated version) to anyone with an interest in breeding Australian pythons.


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## Kali7 (Jan 25, 2008)

question of supply and demand AND what prices people are WILLING to pay. If suddenly everyone said, nup, not going to pay that much, the price would go down.

AND if there are so hard to breed, there wouldnt be so many in USA.


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## dragon lady (Jan 25, 2008)

Morelia_Hunter also has a thread on the GTP'S with farming.........

Basically..........price will demand respect!


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## Morelia_Hunter (Jan 25, 2008)

I like Greg Maxwells book, but I can understand what Nick M is saying. The fact is they are for more experienced keepers but if you have your husbandry correct for other species you will be able to keep them healthy. They are just a lot less tollerant to keeper mistakes. They are hardier than people think they are and are more tollerant of a dry atmosphere than an overly wet environment.They have become easier over years to breed but that is only because some breeders managed to breed wild caught females. The same goes for ball pythons, about 15 years ago people thought they were impossible to breed and look at all the morphs that are out there now. Our understanding of their needs and of cycling have become better understood. Thus making it easier for beginners to breed some of their first snakes without any problem. there will always be a demand for these beautiful snakes and people will always pay top dollar for something that is beautiful.


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## herptrader (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't think anybody (particularly Maxwell) is saying that they are hard to breed.

The issue in Australia is that we were coming off a very low base numbers wise for GTP's in captivity. This is starting to change and as has happened with other species - the prices will come down.


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## herptrader (Jan 25, 2008)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> I like Greg Maxwells book, but I can understand what Nick M is saying. The fact is they are for more experienced keepers but if you have your husbandry correct for other species you will be able to keep them healthy.
> [...]



Something that Maxwell has done that most "for more experienced keepers" is share what works for them in the form of a book. The old quote:



> Publish or be damned



comes to mind.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Jan 25, 2008)

Dont get me wrong Herptrader, i use his book frequently as cross reference. I also like the German book that is available. It also has to be taken into consideration that Greg has access to locality specific as well as good quality captive bred stock.


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## wokka (Jan 25, 2008)

I believe some of the price stability with GTP's comes from the type of people which own thm. The purchase of GTP's is normally carefully thought through rather than an impulsive burst for another snake. GTP breeders can afford and often want to hold on to their progeny wereas I observe a lot of owners of snakes move on to the next breed once they have mastered breeding their current challenge. I guess with GTP's there is no next breed, except of course Albino Olives,


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## Vincent (Jan 25, 2008)

The biggest issue i had with Maxwells book is the bit about not probing GTP's until at least a year old. People have been probing baby GTP's for decades without any problems. A bloke makes a book and states it shouldnt be done, and all of a sudden every breeder only sells unsexed young. I guess i cant blame them, i'd probably do the same if i bred them, easy way to sell a few extra, or all the same sex to one buyer.


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## NickM (Jan 25, 2008)

The book pays lip service to the topic of obesity then goes on to show pictures of obese animals as if they were representative of what a healthy chondro should look like.

Another major issue I have with this book is that it promotes Maxwells personal beliefs as if they were fact.

The issue of locality is a great example. Maxwell and others with his midset have done all they can to discourage the breeding of local GTPs, this is done entirely to prop up the price of their own mutt animals.

The fact is that what is now considered to be a single species is in reality several different animals, there have been numerous studies and genetic work done and all suppoirt thjis conclusion.

US keepers like Maxwell have been breeding mixed blood animals for years and in a flagrant move to discourage people from buying less expensive locality animals that are now imported they activley try to persuade people against breeding locality animals, and attempt to cast doubt on the origins of any animal that they did not produce.

The unforetunate truth is that too many people beleive everything they read , so when someone like Maxwell publishes a book filled with his own very biased opinions it is looked at as fact by many

Just visit any GTP forums, you cant even talk about locality animals without someone regurgitating some of Maxwells propaganda.

As a breeder of locality animals I think his book has done a dis-service to the hobby, iut has in large part destryed the market for locality GTPs, intentionally just to promote hybrids.

Nick


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## MrBredli (Jan 25, 2008)

I own a copy of the book but have yet to read it thoroughly so I'm interested to hear more on the topic of localities. No offence intended at all Nick, but i can't completely grasp what you're trying to say. On one hand, he is breeding hybrid mutts, but on the other hand he is discouraging people from breeding locailty pure specimens because he doubts their purity, which if he is correct, would mean they would be producing hybrid mutts, which is what you say he is breeding also? So what's the difference? 

I just fail to comprehend how Greg could possibly be *against* breeding locality pure specimens. Everyone has their doubts about particular lines of 'locality pure' animals being exactly what they are claimed to be, and so they should. Unless you took them from the wild yourself, or you can trace them back to when they were taken from the wild, then it is wise to be cautious. If in doubt, then i don't believe they should be claimed to be locailty pure, and i can only guess that is what Greg is getting at? If they're guaranteed locality pure, and it can be proven, then i find it almost impossible to believe that Greg would be against. I know he's more into the morphs, but even so, i'm sure he still has a great deal of respect for locality pure animals.


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## MrBredli (Jan 25, 2008)

One more point... if he casts shadows over the 'purity' of certain locailties/lines, surely it isn't too hard for someone to step up and prove him wrong? If it can't be proven that Greg is wrong, and that the animals in question are in fact pure, then surely he is right to be questioning the purity of those animals??


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## Simple (Jan 25, 2008)

NickM said:


> The book pays lip service to the topic of obesity then goes on to show pictures of obese animals as if they were representative of what a healthy chondro should look like.
> 
> Another major issue I have with this book is that it promotes Maxwells personal beliefs as if they were fact.
> 
> ...




Have you bred GTPs Nick?


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## pugsly (Jan 25, 2008)

Why are they so expensive?

Who wouldn't want to own one of these.... So magnificent to look at, the colour gets me..


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## pugsly (Jan 25, 2008)

Few more.....


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## NickM (Jan 26, 2008)

yes I have bred GTPs,

All of this has to do with the history of GTPs in the US.

For the firs 20 years they were available you could not get lcoality information on any of them, you were lucky to get any at all and breeders simply bred what they could get.

Also at this time the full range and extent of the variation within this species was not really known.

In the mid 90s the Indo Govt allowed the export of the "farmed " hatchlings. These farms in most cases offered locality specifin animals, both C.B. and in come cases WC that were sold as c.b.

US breeders like Maxwell who had been breeding mutts for years were faced with a deluge of cheap imported locality animals. They did not want to compete with the prices of the imports and could not produce the locality animals as their lines were all mixed.

Their solution was to aggressivley try to cast doubt on the locality of the imported animals. If you read the section in Maxwells book about locality animals you will see what I mean.

Generally when one writes a book you dont include rumors heard from third parties, yet this is what Maxwell does, and its done for entirely self-serving reasons.

People wanted locality animals in the begining, and these guys have managed to convince the masses that they dont really want them!

The end result is the even US c.b. locality animals are worth very little , while mutts command much higher prices. 

95% of all the GTPS produced in this country are mutts these days, wich just disgusts me.

When they locality animals first started coming in there were a great number of people who were enthusiastic about having the chance to work with them, now Maxwell and CO have killed that enthusiasm.

Its so bad here now that even the Indo "farms" are cross breeding them becuase they can make more money selling mutt!

Australia will have to deal with the same problems as from what I have seen most of the GTPs in Australia are actually smuggled Indo blood animals. I have to laugh a little everytime I see red neonates in Australia! as reall Aussie GTPs dont even have red babies.

Just remember when reading the book that you are reading one mans very biased opinion and nothing more.

Nick


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## MrBredli (Jan 26, 2008)

Sorry but that doesn't make sense (i know i only have a tiny bit of the story so i should probably just shut up, but i just can't help myself...). 

So Greg has been breeding mutts for what, 20-30 years?? ... However long, just take a look at what he is producing now - absolutely stunning animals! Nobody in their right mind would expect anyone to walk away from 10, 20, 30+ years of selective breeding simply because locality pure specimens are now available, would you Nick? If you were breeding GTP's (mutts) of the same quality as Greg's, would you stop immediately and start breeding plain old green GTP's simply because locality pure specimens became available? And would you expect someone to pay US$2000 for a F1 locality pure GTP when for US$2000 you can get a screamer that has taken 20-30 years of captive breeding to produce? I think it is outrageous that people would expect Greg Maxwell's insanely beautiful GTP's be priced equal to, or less than, locality specific animals that quite frankly are ugly compared to his animals. 

I know that if i was in your position, i certainly wouldn't be complaining if locality pure specimens were cheaper than mutts!! I'd buy as many as i could, put 20-30 years of hard work into producing some amazing lines equal to that of Greg Maxwell's, and then i would ask for amounts similar to, if not higher, than what Greg asks.

Now don't get me wrong, i'm all for locality specific animals, and when i jump into the GTP pond i will only be purchasing pure Aussie GTP's. But fair dinkum, a Biak imported direct from Indonesia cannot possibly command as high a price as a GTP that has 20-30 years selective breeding behind it. On top of that, there is almost an unlimited supply coming out of Indonesia, do you expect everyone of those to be of equal value, or higher, than that of one of Greg's beautiful GTP's, regardless of whether it is pure or not? Like i've said, when someone puts 20-30 years of selective breeding into some of these locality pure animals and starts producing some quality pythons, then you will find they will sell for much higher than the mutts, but it seems to me that nobody is keen to put in the hard yards as Greg has done. Everyone's just looking to make a quick buck and nobody wants to work for it....


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## Ramsayi (Jan 26, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Now don't get me wrong, i'm all for locality specific animals, and when i jump into the GTP pond i will only be purchasing pure Aussie GTP's.



Pure Aussies eh? :shock:
Where are you going to find them, next to a pile of rocking horse doo doo? 



Vincent said:


> The biggest issue i had with Maxwells book is the bit about not probing GTP's until at least a year old. People have been probing baby GTP's for decades without any problems. A bloke makes a book and states it shouldnt be done, and all of a sudden every breeder only sells unsexed young. I guess i cant blame them, i'd probably do the same if i bred them, easy way to sell a few extra, or all the same sex to one buyer.




How many GTP breeders do you know that actually probe hatchies?


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## Vincent (Jan 26, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> How many GTP breeders do you know that actually probe hatchies?


 
Two to be exact. For obvious reasons i wont mention who they are, but both have been around for a long time. And i believe that a fair few more do as well. Not all do, but if you believe no one does you'd have to be pretty naive, and i'm not saying this about you Ramsayi. Like i said, i dont blame them, i'd probably do the same in their situation. A good mate of mine actually does the probing for one of these breeders. This guy has been selling "un-sexed" baby greens ever since Maxwells book came out, and my mate has been probing his babys from the start,and to this day, not one buyer has had one mature with a kinked back. Not being able to probe baby GTP's is one of the biggest myths in the game today. It's only one blokes opinion, and everyones gone with it.


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## Vincent (Jan 26, 2008)

On the subject of probing baby GTP's, dont people find it strange how these breeders manage the get the wanted sex of the animal right with every holdback they keep. Very strange or very lucky? Hmmmm.


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## Bushfire (Jan 26, 2008)

Aussie GTP? lol I doubt you will find a prue one and then comes the question how would you know? The shadow of doubt has been casted over all GTPs in aust. Oh no just a thought one day GTPs could be split in a few subspecies or even species...so the the majority could one day be that word everyone seems to hate judging by the other threads a HYBRID! But Im sure everyone will claim they are prue for fear of both legal reasons and the potential loss of buyers only wanting prue.


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 26, 2008)

It's like anything, it's not what you know it's who you know, my mate got offered some last year as breeder having trouble selling them for the price they are asking, he got them for a really good price, they will come down in price sooner than what people think.

Leigh


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## ad (Jan 26, 2008)

moreliainsanity said:


> It's like anything, it's not what you know it's who you know, my mate got offered some last year as breeder having trouble selling them for the price they are asking, he got them for a really good price, they will come down in price sooner than what people think.
> 
> Leigh





What price was the breeder asking? How much did your mate buy them for?
feeding or unfeeding?
Did he only get the good price because it was someone he knew?
how long is 'sooner' and what will they come down on price to?


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 26, 2008)

ad said:


> What price was the breeder asking? How much did your mate buy them for?
> feeding or unfeeding?
> Did he only get the good price because it was someone he knew?
> how long is 'sooner' and what will they come down on price to?


 
Hi Ad, breeder was asking 6K feeding, my mate got a few of them for 4K and they were already advance(4-5 months old) yep he knows the breeder, at 4k each (adavnced juveniles) last year i think price already down compare to what you see gets advertised this season which still sells.

Leigh


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## MrBredli (Jan 26, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> Pure Aussies eh? :shock:
> Where are you going to find them, next to a pile of rocking horse doo doo?



Nope, from here: [email protected] 

_Genuine Australian Green Tree Pythons, DNA profiled, pure bloodline with known origin, pedigree provided. Care sheets provided with each Green Tree Python hatchling._
_Contact this breeder direct NOW for enquiries: [email protected]._




Vincent said:


> On the subject of probing baby GTP's, dont people find it strange how these breeders manage the get the wanted sex of the animal right with every holdback they keep. Very strange or very lucky? Hmmmm.



Not to make any accusations, but i did find it peculiar that a certain breeder recently had 3 holdback yearling females up for sale, but no males? :?




Bushfire said:


> Aussie GTP? lol I doubt you will find a prue one and then comes the question how would you know? The shadow of doubt has been casted over all GTPs in aust. Oh no just a thought one day GTPs could be split in a few subspecies or even species...so the the majority could one day be that word everyone seems to hate judging by the other threads a HYBRID! But Im sure everyone will claim they are prue for fear of both legal reasons and the potential loss of buyers only wanting prue.



There are a few pure Aussie GTP's around, if you know where to look. Us Aussies are quite aware that the large majority of GTP's in captivity are not pure Aussies, but to say there are none around is quite frankly a stupid statement. That's like saying there are no locality specific GTP's in the US!


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2008)

*Seriously overpriced & boring snakes. JMO.*


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## CGSwans (Jan 26, 2008)

cockney red said:


> *Seriously overpriced & boring snakes. JMO.*



They aren't terribly active, are they?

I've only ever seen one at the zoo, but I think it's been in the same part of the cage every time I've visited.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 8, 2008)

You know how america has them and asia has them?
Well maybe they breed better if they are warmer.
Has anyone ever experimented in that sense?


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## Retic (Apr 8, 2008)

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, what do you mean America has them ?


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## Khagan (Apr 8, 2008)

willia6 said:


> You know how america has them and asia has them?
> Well maybe they breed better if they are warmer.
> Has anyone ever experimented in that sense?



I'm sure the people breeding GTPs know the ideal temps to keep them at :lol:. Keeping it warmer wouldn't make it 'breed better' in any sense.


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## Armand (Apr 8, 2008)

maybe its cause of their colours.. still doesnt explain why they are 7.5+ grand!


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## Retic (Apr 8, 2008)

Well they start at around $4000 now so they are getting around to where they should be


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## $NaKe PiMp (Apr 8, 2008)

they should be about $200 like a coastal LOL


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## jamgo (Apr 8, 2008)

even at $200 i still wouldn't buy one.


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## wizz (Apr 8, 2008)

i will have ten for $200


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

they wont be expensive for much longer, as i hear theres a wild population in sydney. hahaha.


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## Frozenmouse (Apr 9, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> they wont be expensive for much longer, as i hear theres a wild population in sydney. hahaha.


bah ha ha ha.


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## ravensgait (Apr 9, 2008)

Just like anything else they are only worth what someone will pay for them.

And just so you know Zoo Chondro's move on Wed. between 6 and 8 PM
Randy


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## Syras (Apr 9, 2008)

$200.. rofl.. not a chance, EVER! 

I gladly challenge anyone to go through the process of buying a pair of GTP's, raising them (from neonates), bread them, incubate the eggs... and then see how much you are willing to sell the offspring for.

Once you realise the huge amount of effort (*effort*, not necessarily skill or experience) required to raise and look after them, you would not sell them for $200.

If you do not own GTP's or have experience with them, then you are not in a position to make negative criticism on these amazing creature, nor the price of them.


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## wokka (Apr 9, 2008)

They are definitely more delicate and demanding in their care . 10% of my snakes are GTPs but 50% of my vet bills relate to GTPs, including unfortunately euthanasing and autopsy. A lot of the vet fees relate to snakes which have been bought in. I would have to say that there are a lot of unscupulous sellers of GTPs out there relative to my experiences in buying other pythons. The GPT sellers say I dont know how to look after GTPs.Any problems with bought in animals have shown in the first three months. Our animals are kept in a number of different facilities under a number of different care regimes. After that no problems. Its a hard call to euthanise animals that have cost $10,000 plus. Some keepers just dose them up and sell them on.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 9, 2008)

Interesting how success causes resentment eh? Greg Maxwell's book has universally brought about a great increase in insight into this (still monotypic) genus, especially with regard to incubation techniques. But at the end of the day it only represents the views of the writer. He is the first to admit that, so I think it reflects poorly on his critics to slam him as they do... I have no axe to grind with anyone, but NickM, you come across as a spoilt brat in this debate.

Please let us know where YOU publish YOUR data and experiences, so we can see what you have done to support the arguments you have produced here. Don't get me wrong - anyone who knows me here knows I'm all for locality animals (with a vengeance...) But surely your criticism of Maxwell and the "conspiracy theory" you suggest has been deserving of a suitably high profile counter argument, especially in your country.

Chondro discussions can be guaranteed to bring out the sour grapes by the table load... whether you like them or not, who cares????

Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 9, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> they wont be expensive for much longer, as i hear theres a wild population in sydney. hahaha.



True enough TrueBlue - they apparently have found a way of living in roof-spaces over the winter to avoid the cold, but they prefer the north shore because most of the houses are centrally heated...

J.


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## albino (Apr 9, 2008)

i think they will plummet in price over the next two years, all those hatchies that have been smuggled in over the last five years will all be of breeding age and many many clutches will be produced.


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## wokka (Apr 9, 2008)

Wrong thread PI


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

syras, imo thats rubbish. 
They are infact alot easier to raise and keep than number of other pythons.
Alot of people treat them with kid gloves and this imo is half the reason they have trouble with them.
They are infact a very hardy animal.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 9, 2008)

Having worked with them through mates I find them easier to care for than Blackheaded pythons.They don't trash cages as Aspidites love to do. They sit on a perch, crap, you remove the substrate and that's it! The prolapse issue may also come down to a bloodline thing. A few keepers seem to have alot of trouble with non-feeders, prone to plolapse animals, small or slug filled clutches etc. Others pump babies with no repercussions, wack them together with full, fertile clutches produced. All babies taking to pinkies with minimal 'teasing' or scenting!

So yeah, if you have animals from good, strong, healthy lines they are very easy to care for!


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## Retic (Apr 9, 2008)

I totally agree, a good bloodline seems to be the best way of guaranteeing good robust hatchlings with few if any losses.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

Den, imo most gtps that prolaspe are dew to the fact that they are fed to large a prey item or to often when young.
Why i belive this to be true because they have a very prehensile tail,(which most pythons dont), and they need time for the muscles etc to develovp propally in this area, yet most keepers just dont give them the chance for this to happen.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 9, 2008)

Yeah Rob, every 10 days seems to be the magic number to feed greens. I've found, through working with them, some lines, even when kept in optimum conditions are prone to prolapse. Some having 1/3rd of the clutch problematic in this area. Another line, kept in identical conditions powering without any dramas, feeding every 5-7 days on fuzzy mice with solid defication. They are fragile looking little critters but most from strong lines are very food orientated. I've fed babies small fuzzies, 2 days later their lure is going nuts with anticipation for more tucker. 

Funny little animals.....


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## wokka (Apr 9, 2008)

I wonder if prolapse and particularly spinal kinks come back to the housing of neonates. In the wild I understand GTPs live on the ground for the first year or so whereas most captive neonates I know of perch from birth. This must strain the tail particularly when lunging at afeed item and cause invisable stress fractures or tears. I would expect along with this that particular lines are more susseptable than others. Larger food items would also increase this stress


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

yes they are funny little things when young arnt they.
Then they grow into boring lumps of gorrilla snot. hahaha.

I think as with all snakes they are quite individual when it comes to the prolapse thing. I know of animals prolapsing from virtually all lines in oz, yet animals from the same clutches fed more wont.??

I tend to stagger the feeding of greens, as you said sometimes after 10 days or so some times 2-3 weeks or so, i also like to give young greens pinkie rather than fuzzies for at least the fist 6 months as is just so much easier for them to digest. 
To this day a have NEVER had a green prolapse on me be following this rule. Hey but thats just my opinion and way.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

wokka, alot of the reson why greens develove kinks is that people just cant help themselves and just have to hold them when young. IMO this is a no no. For the first 6 to 12 months its best to just leave them be.
Even removing the perch from thier tub for cleaning can cause this if not done gentley enough.
But you may well be right as well as some young go crazy with the tail luring thing. I had one that was the funniest thing to watch as its tail would go evey where,ie over its head, around its body, towards the ground and an inch or so above its head, all very very quickly, im sure it thought it was an arobics teacher.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 9, 2008)

Yeah, I'm used to keeping alot of cage destoying Aspidites so dealing with perch sitting animals is quite a treat! haha.

I've found feeding hatchlings very small fuzzy mice (say from a large 'clutch' of mice that are of fuzzy age and fur but more of a large pinkie size) seems to make the defication left more 'healthy' and solid rather than brown liquid. I aggree that smaller food items are the way to go. Prob the same size you feed, just a bit of fuzz.....

From the individual point, i've got mates that fed their personal hatchlings larger food items from the word go and bred them at 2.5yrs with ease. Definately comes down to indidual animals and good, strong lines combined. Same as you though, just my opinion. Whatever works at the end of the day.


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## wokka (Apr 9, 2008)

Rob, certainly more prevailent in particular lines. You'd 'know Lily was famous for playing with her GTP hatchoes. Now as adults, not a kink or any problems. Other lines we have , only 2 out of 5 left and both with kinks and never handled until at least 6 months.


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## Retic (Apr 9, 2008)

Yes it seems some lines are much more inclined to suffer from 'issues'. Prolapsing in Greens isn't actually a common problem but it seems to be the first thing people mention in regard Greens.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

hahaha, yes but Lily is such a gentle soul.


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## Syras (Apr 9, 2008)

TrueBlue
So are you planning to sell GTP's for $200 then, sometime soon maybe? Where can I sign up for a few?

I do agree that the GTP's are hardier than people think, however, knowing intricate pieces of knowledge such as not feeding GTP's large or oversized feeds to avoid potential prolapse issues. Unfortunately is not common sense. Even you must of learnt this some how, either the hard way, from a person or a book? None the less, it required a little effort.

In terms of effort put into maintaining cages, I agree again, little effort is required other than the regular misting.

On another note, the caudal luring (tail luring), from personal experience is not always directly related to food or being hungry. As I have noted that sudden shifts in temperature (either way) seem to stimulate this instinct, even directly after being fed.

TrueBlue, Den, have either of you experienced this?


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 9, 2008)

I haven't mate, i've only personally worked with 3 adult pairs, my comments are mainly based on hatchlings and yearlings feeding regimes. All of the adults worked with were in a controlled environment so no sudden shifts in temp were noticed. It does make sense that sudden higher temps and inturn increased humidity would stimulate activity.


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## NickM (Apr 9, 2008)

I keep hatchling GTPs in tubs with removable perches. When its time to clean I just remove the perch witht he snake still on it and thus rarely have to handle them.

The biggest problem with kinking here is people trying to sex them when they are too young. Often times the kinks are not noticable at the time they occur and steadly become worse as the animal gets larger.

Nick


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

once again i agree with NickM, probing when young can cause kinks as the animal has to be restrianed to do this, plus the fact of the prehensile tail, which imo needs time for the muscles etc to develop propally.
As NickM has said most kinks will appear as the animal goes thru its colour change or soon after.

Syras, because of their high risk,( compared to most other pythons), of prolapsing, to me its is common sence to feed small prey and lesss often than other pythons when young, even as adults imo most people grossly over feed greens. This i worked out for myself and as said have NEVER had a green prolaps on me. But i do agree with you that alot of people lack even the slightest bit of common sence. But hey feeding small prey and less often is easier not harder.
As for the price, the market depicts that not me.


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## craftsman (Apr 9, 2008)

Wokka, juvenile GTPs don't live on the ground. They hand close to the ground and occasionally descend from their perches occasionally but no more than adults do.


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## cement (Apr 9, 2008)

I don't have any GTP's yet, but as far as difficulty in raising them goes, wouldn't they just be different?
And as such have different needs?
So if their needs were met, they shouldn't prove to be any harder then any other animal. Right?


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

spot on cement, and their needs are'nt much at all.


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## Chimera (Apr 9, 2008)

Chimera said:


> Unfortunately the obese image of "healthy" GTPs has come from the US where the majority of captive boids are heavy bodied snakes. Greg Maxwell did state in his VHS talk that he had come to the realisation that they were obese and was trying to get them leaner to alleviate some of the health issues.
> 
> Unfortunately we are prone to following the US as much of the herpetocultural knowledge in Aus has originated from US sources (as shown by the fact that Barker '94 is the most quoted book on Australian Pythons). In more recent times though we have developed our own body of knowledge and finally looked at other Morelia to adjust our view on GTP body shape and size.



I wonder if many of the health issues and perceived difficulties in maintaining these are related to the way keepers in the US keep them.


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## craftsman (Apr 9, 2008)

Keeping, breeding and raising juveniles is not difficult but unfortunately, too many people are making basic mistakes when it comes to housing and feeding because they think GTPs are just another python. Some of the mistakes (particularly re- housing) occur because people take Greg Maxwell's book for a gospel. Unlike other Ausie pythons, GTPs are arboreal species and they need vertical space more than they do floor space. That applies to juveniles as well. The worst thing you can do is keep your neonate in a rectangular take-a-way container on a straw. Why?
Hopefully, I'll get my article on 'keeping GTP' published in Jun-Jul issue of Reptiles Australia magazine.


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## ravensgait (Apr 9, 2008)

Prolapse is more likely just that animal then any other reason ,sure this or that can cause it to happen but remember we are dealing with CBB animals that many of which would have survived in the wild. So one with a mild congenital problem is kept alive and often reproduces . As someone mentioned it seems to be more prevalent in some lines than others. I also agree that smaller meals more often doesn't hurt and likely helps. Knock on wood but I've kept well over a hundred of these guys over the years and haven't had a prolapse yet.

Most CBB animals are not that difficult to keep compared to Emeralds and some of the other critters I've kept. Cage cleaning is easy , pick up the perch with the Chondro on it and sit it somewhere till the cage is done. It is the rare Chondro that will move off the perch while you're cleaning

As far as ground space Chondro's are less arboreal than Emeralds and are similar to ATBs in that they hang out in the trees but like crawling in the dirt too. 

Chondro's cost what they do there because there are still so few available.. I wonder what a Boeleni would go for over there. Yeah i know you can't have them but here I can get a Farmed Chondro for 200 bucks but a farmed Boeleni hatchling is around three grand.. Randy


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## Retic (Apr 9, 2008)

I must admit I would feed hatchling Chondros the same as I would any other carpet, small meals and often. That's not to say it is the only or best method but it works for a great many people. To me it is just commonsense.


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## richardsc (Apr 9, 2008)

there so expensive because its a big risk smuggling them into australia,just ask morelia hunter,hehehe


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## ravensgait (Apr 9, 2008)

Yeah I read that article about the Chondro in the bath room, pretty steep if you get caught. Not something I'd want to try.. 

I've seen a few people reference this incident with MH, what's the scoop?? Randy


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