# '07 jags PICS!!!! (MAJOR DUW!!)



## hornet (May 25, 2007)

Thes Jags were bred by Matt Brock, the father was a pure coastal jag from Will Leary and the mother is a striped coastal originating from some animals that were supposedly imported from the Cape Trib area. Heres a pic of dad. 





The mother on her eggs. She incubated them the entire length. Matt let her do all the work. She was a great mom. 




Here you can see a hatchling emerging from under her chin.




Now for the babies.
Striped Sibling




Banded Sibling




WOW!!!
















A few more




"Tulip" The pattern on her hear looks like a tulip flower




An even lighter jag










Reddest female fromthe clutch.








Thats all folks, hope you enjoy


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## herpie boy (May 25, 2007)

very nice, how much


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

herpie boy said:


> very nice, how much



They are all in America. Prices last year for jags was around the $3000 mark.


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## Storm91 (May 25, 2007)

ther so cool


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

lol waruikazi has already seen these pics


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## cringles (May 25, 2007)

One word for those last two WOW!!!!!!:shock: :shock: :shock: 
me guessing you holding onto those mate?
Cheers cringles


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

unfortunatly not mine a mate of mine in the states bred them)


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## Auzlizardking (May 25, 2007)

I can get Aust breed Jags for $5000.00 each there are two for sale if anyone wants one.
These as fare as I know are the only ones in Aust.
PM me (NO TYRE KICKERS)


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## MMAnne (May 25, 2007)

Wow! What beauties!

Wish they were in my price range so bad!


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## Lozza (May 25, 2007)

wow theyre great - I love tulip


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## Mrs Mac (May 25, 2007)

wow awesome deffinately one of my fav exotics


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## Pythons Rule (May 25, 2007)

owwww they are so gorgouse what are the related to arn't they like a cross between B&W and coastal? or how did they make this breed in the first place?


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

the ones in the pics are pure coastals, you can get jungle jags which are junglexjag coastal, a jag is a coastal carpet mutaion.


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## Jason (May 25, 2007)

i really really feel sorry for anyone that breeds jags!! how the hell do you sell them when they come out looking like that, my collection would grow by 10-15 snakes every season i had!


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## sengir (May 25, 2007)

So are Jags Legal in Australia or not?


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## gold&black... (May 25, 2007)

sengir said:


> So are Jags Legal in Australia or not?



Only if they were bred in this country and if the breeder can prove the blood line....... Not if they have been smuggled and then bred here......... From what I'v heard, no one has managed to breed them in AU so far ( unless they have kept it a secret )..........


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## Auzlizardking (May 25, 2007)

Well they are here and they are bred in Aust and these are NOT the underground ones that are out there. These are 100% bred in Aust.
I am acting on behalf of the breeder who wants to remain anonymous for security reasons.


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

if they are true jags i would think that the parents or grandparents were imported, i dont think there have been any jag lines originating in aus yet, we would have heard of them.


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## MrBredli (May 25, 2007)

Auzlizardking said:


> Well they are here and they are breed in Aust and these are NOT the underground ones that are out there. These are 100% breed in Aust.
> I am the middle man for which you can understand why.



If they are really Jags and are legal, they would be worth a lot more than $5000.


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

hornet said:


> if they are true jags i would think that the parents or grandparents were imported, i dont think there have been any jag lines originating in aus yet, we would have heard of them.



Trust me there are alot of things out there that no one has been game to tell they have yet. The jags are nothing more than visual hets for leucism. And leicism has the possibility to come up in any species. So there really is no reason why they couldn't spontaneoulsy appear in Australia or anywhere else.


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## MrBredli (May 25, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> The jags are nothing more than visual hets for leucism. .



Where did you hear that? No offence intended whatsoever, but that doesn't sound right to me.


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## Miss B (May 25, 2007)

Amazing looking snakes there ...


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

Each clutch of jag x jag pairing produces a predictable ammount of leucistic off spring. So far none of them have survived more than a couple of hours after birth, unless someone is keeping it very secret. I heard this from US breeders of jags. I think it is disputed but how else do you explain a predictable ammount of offspring of leucistics?


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## Auzlizardking (May 25, 2007)

These are not leucistics.


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## MrBredli (May 25, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Each clutch of jag x jag pairing produces a predictable ammount of leucistic off spring. So far none of them have survived more than a couple of hours after birth, unless someone is keeping it very secret. I heard this from US breeders of jags. I think it is disputed but how else do you explain a predictable ammount of offspring of leucistics?



I've never heard that before. Though I have heard, and tend to agree with, an opinion that the 'jaguar' gene is not just one gene, but multiple gene working together or independantly of each other. So if it is true that they are producing leucistics, that would be just one of the several genes that the jags carry.


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## junglemad (May 25, 2007)

there are jags in australia bred here from aussie snakes not smuggled stuff. you will see a few around soon


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## MrSpike (May 25, 2007)

hornet said:


> if they are true jags i would think that the parents or grandparents were imported, i dont think there have been any jag lines originating in aus yet, we would have heard of them.



John, you would be surprised what people have in their collections, people don't have to show them off to have them, more albino's out there than you think...

Kane


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> I've never heard that before. Though I have heard, and tend to agree with, an opinion that the 'jaguar' gene is not just one gene, but multiple gene working together or independantly of each other. So if it is true that they are producing leucistics, that would be just one of the several genes that the jags carry.



I have heard that it is more than one gene also. But it is true jag put over jag produces leucies.


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## gold&black... (May 25, 2007)

see, just what I thought........ A lot of people have kept it a secret..... :shock::shock::shock:... Cant wait to get some when they are being sold...............


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## pwnewell (May 25, 2007)

Geepers another snake to add to the wish list..........


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## gold&black... (May 25, 2007)

pwnewell said:


> Geepers another snake to add to the wish list..........



for sure mate........


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## Retic (May 25, 2007)

There are no such things as Aussie bred Jags, if they are Jags then they were illegally imported. There are snakes that look like Jags in this country. 



Auzlizardking said:


> I can get Aust breed Jags for $5000.00 each there are two for sale if anyone wants one.
> These as fare as I know are the only ones in Aust.
> PM me (NO TYRE KICKERS)


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## Frozenmouse (May 25, 2007)

There are snakes that well and truely qualify for the jaguar label in australia not imported ones either,! some times people dont know what they have and some times people dont want to boast..


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

boa said:


> There are no such things as Aussie bred Jags, if they are Jags then they were illegally imported. There are snakes that look like Jags in this country.



i'm with boa, as said before, jags are a mix of alot of different genes, its gonne be pretty hard, almost impossible to get that combination resulting in a jag, just MO tho


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

hornet said:


> i'm with boa, as said before, jags are a mix of alot of different genes, its gonne be pretty hard, almost impossible to get that combination resulting in a jag, just MO tho



There is actually no good evidence that it is a multiple gene that is causing the mutation. It's all just speculation.


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## Retic (May 25, 2007)

Of course you can have snakes that look like Jags but you can't have a legal Aussie Jag, it just isn't possible. The Jag line originated overseas.


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

Dabool said:


> There are snakes that well and truely qualify for the jaguar label in australia not imported ones either,! some times people dont know what they have and some times people dont want to boast..



There are alot of snakes that are jag looking. I'll agree with that, but real jags, the ones that originated from Jan Eric's line are waaaay different to anything that we have in australia.


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

boa said:


> Of course you can have snakes that look like Jags but you can't have a legal Aussie Jag, it just isn't possible. The Jag line originated overseas.



It's not impossible but so incredibly unlikely.


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## Frozenmouse (May 25, 2007)

The traditional jags we see from the states ect do have irian carpet python genes which makes the selective breeding process faster ..
But it is not a necessity..


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

not all i have IJ the origanal jags were pure coastals


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## liasis (May 25, 2007)

just my thought if they are australian snakes that are producing the jags dont you think that it might be possible that there is someone out there with them and just doesnt want anyone to know same as albinos ther would be alot more out there then people think


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## eladidare (May 25, 2007)

thay are insane


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## Retic (May 25, 2007)

There is no proof to show the original Jags were anything but pure mcdowelli, like Waruikazi said there is nothing here to my knowledge that comes close to some of the real Jags.


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## Frozenmouse (May 25, 2007)

Yep they do look different to the ones we have ..
Better or worst? i recon thats a matter of opinion tho..
I will ne happy when we are breeding yellow or the orange ones here ill take two thanks..


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

the thing is jags are not like albinos, an albino can just pop up in a clutch, jags have been line bred for generations to get them where they are.


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## Frozenmouse (May 25, 2007)

hornet said:


> not all i have IJ the origanal jags were pure coastals


You are right but most of the breeders do use them in their program though.


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## liasis (May 25, 2007)

hornet said:


> the thing is jags are not like albinos, an albino can just pop up in a clutch, jags have been line bred for generations to get them where they are.


yes but what im saying is why cant there be someone in australia that has done that and not said anyhting all these people are stateing that it is impossible but no one can be sure and i know its not like an albino i was saying that there would be more albino species then people think


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

hornet said:


> the thing is jags are not like albinos, an albino can just pop up in a clutch, jags have been line bred for generations to get them where they are.



No they haven't. There are some that i guess you could call double het or something and either have tiger or tri-stripe breeding in them. But they were a completely coincidental mutation in the beginning. The first one just popped out of a clutch of normal coastals.


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

Dabool said:


> You are right but most of the breeders do use them in their program though.



Well no not really. From memory there is a similar morph that people call an IJ Jag, but i don't think breeders are crossing to IJ's to speed things up. I really con't see how it would speed anything up in the breeding process.


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## Retic (May 25, 2007)

Exactly, that is the point. It is POSSIBLE to breed snakes that look superficially like Jags but you can't LEGALLY get a Jag in this country.


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## gold&black... (May 25, 2007)

Dabool said:


> The traditional jags we see from the states ect do have irian carpet python genes which makes the selective breeding process faster ..
> But it is not a necessity..



very similar to what I heard............


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

gold&black... said:


> very similar to what I heard............



There was a big debate about this on another forum that i was on, also about the existence of the banana jag (but that's another story). Anyway Jan Eric got on the forum and said himself exactly what was or was not in the original jags and there was nothing but coastal. Straight from the horses mouth.

I was sceptical at first too but after reading up ono everything there is no reason to doubt what the man said himself.


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## Auzlizardking (May 25, 2007)

boa said:


> There are no such things as Aussie bred Jags, if they are Jags then they were illegally imported. There are snakes that look like Jags in this country.



No one has said there are US Jags - they are Aust bred Jags


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## Retic (May 25, 2007)

As has been said a few times in this thread they can't be Aussie Jags, they can look similar to Jags but if they are Jags they are from imported snakes, Also Jags aren't a US snake.


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## SnakePower (May 25, 2007)

I hate to be the one to have to say this, but why can there not be an Australian Jag. From what I can gather there are some Jags available, not from oversea's lines, ie not originating from Jan Eric's stock. It sound as though they are bred here. 
If I remember correctly, there was a while back, a long debate, as Waruikazi mentioned, on a US site in regards to this exact topic. The Americans along with some Europeans, agreed on the fact that there could be animals classed as Australian Jags, here in Oz. These animals are not from the founding stock of Jan Eric, rather animals that have been selectively and line bred to produce animals that can closley resemble the oversea's jags. These are not 3rd and 4th generation Jags that have been out crossed with other morelia subspecies in order to generate the kind of animals that we commonly see such as the reduced Jags, in other sites and occasionally here. They are first or second generation animals, that now have reached the point of being able to be classed and labelled Aust. Jags. Therefore, they are not Illegal imported jags, but infact completly legal australian animals!! The Aust. Jag is it's own morph!


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> I hate to be the one to have to say this, but why can there not be an Australian Jag. From what I can gather there are some Jags available, not from oversea's lines, ie not originating from Jan Eric's stock. It sound as though they are bred here.
> If I remember correctly, there was a while back, a long debate, as Waruikazi mentioned, on a US site in regards to this exact topic. The Americans along with some Europeans, agreed on the fact that there could be animals classed as Australian Jags, here in Oz. These animals are not from the founding stock of Jan Eric, rather animals that have been selectively and line bred to produce animals that can closley resemble the oversea's jags. These are not 3rd and 4th generation Jags that have been out crossed with other morelia subspecies in order to generate the kind of animals that we commonly see such as the reduced Jags, in other sites and occasionally here. They are first or second generation animals, that now have reached the point of being able to be classed and labelled Aust. Jags. Therefore, they are not Illegal imported jags, but infact completly legal australian animals!! The Aust. Jag is it's own morph!



But then they are not jags and it is misleading to label them as such.

A 'true' jag will do certain things that a jag look alike will not do. Such as produce jags from a normal x jag pairing and leucies from a jag x jag pairing. They have light blue eyes etc etc. To label something that looks like a jag as a jag is not right.


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## MrBredli (May 25, 2007)

Spot on waruikazi.


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## Southside Morelia (May 25, 2007)

All I know is I want one!!


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## Vincey (May 25, 2007)

scm1 said:


> All I know is I want one!!



I hear ya.


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

scm1 said:


> All I know is I want one!!



All i will say if anyone has a pure aussie one that is not illegally imported and is a genuine jag. SOLD!


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## SnakePower (May 25, 2007)

l don't know for sure, but isn't the claim that they are Australian Jags??
If that is the case, there is no misleading. They are not claiming to have animals from overseas linage. If something is bred genetically, then it should be able to be reproduced when it is bred. If it is bred to a normal ie Oz Jag x Normal Mcdowelli, then a percentage of the clutch would /should carry the traits on, just like breeding anything else. (I think)(genetics aren't my strong suit lol.) 
As for the light blue eyes etc etc, I have seen Jags with redish eyes, silver eyes, light blue eyes, copper eyes etc etc. I have even seen the odd one with pretty normal darkish eyes. 
We only generally see breeder's best examples don't we??!! I know when I post some pics I want to show my nicest animals, not the less exciting one's. It's the same with Jags, if you look long enough, you will find all different levels of quality's found in each type of animal.


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

Doesn't even have to be pure... as long as it is legal and throws leucies!


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## da_donkey (May 25, 2007)

Auzlizardking said:


> No one has said there are US Jags - they are Aust bred Jags


 
Why not post some pics up for your mate, if they look the part you will have no troubles selling them.


Donk


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## SnakePower (May 25, 2007)

Ohh... and for the record.. If they are real, as real as they get (for an australian produced animal) That is an "Aust. Jag", then I want one too!!!
Infact I'd love a breeding trio please!!!


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## waruikazi (May 25, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> l don't know for sure, but isn't the claim that they are Australian Jags??
> If that is the case, there is no misleading. They are not claiming to have animals from overseas linage. If something is bred genetically, then it should be able to be reproduced when it is bred. If it is bred to a normal ie Oz Jag x Normal Mcdowelli, then a percentage of the clutch would /should carry the traits on, just like breeding anything else. (I think)(genetics aren't my strong suit lol.)
> As for the light blue eyes etc etc, I have seen Jags with redish eyes, silver eyes, light blue eyes, copper eyes etc etc. I have even seen the odd one with pretty normal darkish eyes.
> We only generally see breeder's best examples don't we??!! I know when I post some pics I want to show my nicest animals, not the less exciting one's. It's the same with Jags, if you look long enough, you will find all different levels of quality's found in each type of animal.



It all depends on how the gene expresses itself, if it is a recessive trait an aus jag over anything else will produce hets that look normal. If it is dominant you will see the gene express itself in the patterning etc.

If they are aussie jags and they do the same things genetically as the Ueropean ones then you are right it is not misleading. But if they don't, if they are just reduced pattern carpets then that is misleading. 

Like i said earlier jags are a visual het for leucism, if not for something else. That is one of the things that sets them apart from everything else.


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## Hetty (May 25, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> All i will say if anyone has a pure aussie one that is not illegally imported and is a genuine jag. SOLD!



I'll take an illegal one, no worries


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## Hetty (May 25, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Doesn't even have to be pure... as long as it is legal and throws leucies!



but don't all the leucistics die?


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## SnakePower (May 25, 2007)

Yes, but saying that, it doesn't really matter in regards to the leucism, if at this stage, there haven't been any Leucies that have survived! Obviously a leucistic animal would be awesome, but no-one is actually there yet. At least that we know of!!
In regards to the gene... I remember in the thread on this topic on the US website, the gene was a dominant. The parenting animal of the Australian jag looked like the one they talked about, similar characteristics, just not as good as it's prodegy. Siblings were also posted and carried the characteristics too, so the gene must have been dominant.
Therefore when bred the genetics would be reproduced, making the animal, one generation better again.

AND... I STILL WANT SOME!!!!


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## Hetty (May 25, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> Yes, but saying that, it doesn't really matter in regards to the leucism, if at this stage, there haven't been any Leucies that have survived! Obviously a leucistic animal would be awesome, but no-one is actually there yet. At least that we know of!!
> In regards to the gene... I remember in the thread on this topic on the US website, the gene was a dominant. The parenting animal of the Australian jag looked like the one they talked about, similar characteristics, just not as good as it's prodegy. Siblings were also posted and carried the characteristics too, so the gene must have been dominant.
> Therefore when bred the genetics would be reproduced, making the animal, one generation better again.
> 
> AND... I STILL WANT SOME!!!!



progeny  though, prodigy also works


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## hugsta (May 25, 2007)

Auzlizardking said:


> No one has said there are US Jags - they are Aust bred Jags


 
Pics or they don't exist......LOL. Here too many rumours of so called morphs being around. Most of which turn out to be crap. As far as I am concerned if you can't provide a pic of the animal on a current Australian newspaper, then it doesn't exist.


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## Matt Brock (May 25, 2007)

First off, let me introduce myself!  

My name is Matt, as seen by my screen name, and I am from Mississippi, USA. I have known some of the guys here for quite some time from a US forum. It's always glad to get the perspective of guys "down under" because the very species I love to work with live in your yards! That kills me. 

Anyway, I really didn't want my first post to be like this, but it seems that maybe I should clear a few things up. First, thank you for all of the kind words. These animals truly are breathtaking, and I'm glad you like them. Second, just a little history on the morph itself. Jaguars originated from a line of Coastals in Europe back in the mid 90's. The founding animal (male) randomly hatched from a clutch from normal parents. This random mutation effected the pattern and color of this offspring. Jan Eric bred this animal to other females and the mutation seemd to be of a codom nature because it was represented in approximately half of the offspring. The gene not only effects the jaguars, but the siblings as well. The gene can take ordinary color combinations and intensify them far beyond what selective breedings have accomplished in the past. There has been speculation and rumor that the original Jags were the result of crossing an Irian Jaya to a Coastal. I can not dispute that becuase I do not know. What I can say is that there is NO evidence to support this claim, so therefore, I am going to trust the founder of this morph. I have no reason to believe he would lie about the origins. He very well might, but the evidence doesn't lead me to believe so. 

What seperates the European line of Jagurs from anything in Aussie is the fact that Jaguars are hets for leucism. Jaguars are NOT selectively bred reduced pattern carpets. They are not the result of generations of selective breeding. They are a genetic mutation that has key identifying chracteristics that set them apart from other reduced pattern lines. You, in Australia, do in fact have some amazingly gorgeous reduced carpets that have patterns similar to that of Jaguars. The difference is that yours do not produce Leucies, and doesn't appear to be of a codom nature. If you do have them there then they were illegally obtained. I wish there was a way to legally allow you the opprtunity to work with them, and I certainly wish we could import some of your pure animals. Trust me, I WANT SOME OF YOUR SNAKES BAD!!! LOL!!

There are a lot of arguments out there trying to dispute the origins and uniqueness of Jags, and hopefully some of this will clear it up a bit. This is the info I have and trust it the truth. Now lets talk snakes!


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## hornet (May 25, 2007)

welcome matt, hope you enjoy yourself here, i'm sure we all want to see more of your snakes


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## hugsta (May 25, 2007)

Hey Matt and welcome to the site. Some people find it a bit difficult to understand that you cannot reproduce a trait like that here. Animals that re similar for sure, but not the actual 'Jag' lines. Although, illegal ones are here and it is only a matter of time before they will pop up. It is not suprising people are tying to push the issue of "Aussie Jags".


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## NickM (May 26, 2007)

There is as always more to the story.
As for the jags being pure macdowelli, it depends on who you listen to. I am on the side that questions the origins of the founder animal and from the best information I can get it we will likley never be known for certain. There is plenty of room for doubt int he original story about where they came from. Just becuase someone gets online and claims something does not make it true, regardless who they are.

There is also absolutley no evidence that suggests that there is more than one gene involved, Thats more about clever marketing than anything else . I quick look at coastal jag siblings produced this year will show nothing more than anyone would expect.

There are also several variants that poeple have named and marketed as if they were seperate morphs, this is also a bit misleading. The terms "hypo" "red hypo" etc. None of these forms has ever proven to be inheritable in a predictable manner, rather they represent the normal variation within a clutch. the mutation is highly variable and all carpets are also highly variable so in any jag clutch there can be a huge degree of variation, but it does not mean that they are actually differnt morphs, wich they are often described as.

The mutation is homozygous lethal, all the homozygous offspring(leucistics) have failed to survive or even leave the egg complelty. Its unlikley that there will ever be a live Luecistic from this line as they have been outcrossed and bred to every other subspecies of carpet availble and there has yet to be a viable luecistic.

On the Aussie Jags. There have been Rumors around for a few years now about Jags being smuggled from Europe to Australia so its not surprising. Everyone knows there is a thriving market for exotics so it was just a matter of time. there will eventually be lots of Aussie bred jags but will all trace back to illegal imports.

Nick


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

Hi Matt, good to see you on here. Be prepared for some flack if you hang around ;-)

Thanks for hopefully clearing it up for a few people, it really seem quite a simple conscept to grasp. 
If I sat in my garage for 6 months with a big hammer and some spanners and buitly myself a Ferrari, it wouldn't in fact be a Ferrari, it would be a replica of a Ferrari.


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## junglemad (May 26, 2007)

Welcome Matt. I will meet you at Sydney departure lounge with a pocketful of Diamond and Coastal hatchies for a pair of Jags. You seem like a nice bloke so don't tell customs and act very cool.


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## steve6610 (May 26, 2007)

better make that 2 pairs of jags, i'm sure i'll have something you want, haha, welcome matt, i'm a member of the usa site and never get tired of seeing the jag pics posted,


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## TrueBlue (May 26, 2007)

there was a carpet caught on a snake call in south east qld a few years back that is pretty much identical to the original jag.
I have a couple of pis of this animal but cant seem to load them onto my computer from the disc.
I will get someone to help me and then post them here for all to see.
This animal is extremely impressive and is as much a jag as the original animal.


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

I am very much looking forward to seeing that photo, you know what they say photo or it didn't happen ;-)


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## bigguy (May 26, 2007)

There have been quite a few Jags illegally smuggled into Australia over the last few years. Its only a matter of time till they start to surface into the markets. You have to wonder what stories are going to be told to warrant having these beautiful snakes here in this country. It would be very easy for the authorities to confirm wether these snakes are infact related to Erics line by a simple DNA test


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## TrueBlue (May 26, 2007)

im having another go at loading them onto my computer now.

Pitty this animal had to be released back in the wild, i never saw it personally only these pics but know who relocated it, i also know where it was found and released.


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## Australis (May 26, 2007)

I dont really understand why the people who think the founder jag came from pure Coastals, cannont consider it at all possible that we in Australia could breed the exact same morph/mutation, from our legal native animals not imported animals.

If the European bred Jags came form Coastals, isnt it possible the animal TrueBlue has seen is every bit as "jag" as those seen over seas, even related? perhaps even more jag than those overseas?

Cant we ever have "tiger coastals" here in Australia, because someone else produced them, or should i say "named" them overseas first? Is it now rendered "impossible" for them to be bred in Australia from non-imported animals, of course not. Why is it any different for "jags"?

Basically, what im saying "jag" is a label for a mutation, just as much as a "tiger coastal" is a label for another mutation.


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## Australis (May 26, 2007)

And, yes i know they have no doubt been smuggled in already.

But i dont see how it is "impossible" for us Aussies, to produce the same mutation here from wild animals?

Or would we need some PNG reduced pattern animals


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## TrueBlue (May 26, 2007)

i agree australis, once i get these pics on my computer its seems pretty obvious to me that this animal shows the exact same trait as the original jag.

Ive just realised i may have the wrong cd here, and the one with the pics is at a mates place, will post them this arvo as soon as i get the dam thing.


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## Matt Brock (May 26, 2007)

Guys, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. There is no doubt it is "possible" to produce jaguars in Australia, but for this particular genetic mutation to be recreated and randomly appear in another animal is highly unlikely. Like I said, this is not just a selective breedings of reduced carpets to get jags. It's the same idea as Blondie. Do you not find it quite interesting that albino Darwins have appeared in Europe now? Hmmm, wonder if that just randomly happened or if they were illegally exported? I would be willing to bet my whole collection that European albino Darwins came illegally from Aussie, and if jags are in Aussie they were probably brought in illegally.

I'm not saying this arrogantly at all. I wish you guys could work with them. Here is the test. If you guys have Jags then breed two together. If they produce Leucies then you have an argument. If they do not then they are not jags. Simply put.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

There is no reason why the mutation couldn't appear here spontaneously. Just very unlikely. But to make this advertisement with this price tag



Auzlizardking said:


> I can get Aust breed Jags for $5000.00 each there are two for sale if anyone wants one.
> These as fare as I know are the only ones in Aust.
> PM me (NO TYRE KICKERS)



the person who owns these snakes either doesn't have a very good knowledge of what the jag line really is and is selling them as something they are not trying to make a buck. Or they really do have the jag line in which case i'll take one. 

i'm not trying to take a swipe at the person selling them, but i can't see how a jag look alike would be worth $5000.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

Matt Brock said:


> Guys, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. There is no doubt it is "possible" to produce jaguars in Australia, but for this particular genetic mutation to be recreated and randomly appear in another animal is highly unlikely. Like I said, this is not just a selective breedings of reduced carpets to get jags. It's the same idea as Blondie. Do you not find it quite interesting that albino Darwins have appeared in Europe now? Hmmm, wonder if that just randomly happened or if they were illegally exported? I would be willing to bet my whole collection that European albino Darwins came illegally from Aussie, and if jags are in Aussie they were probably brought in illegally.
> 
> I'm not saying this arrogantly at all. I wish you guys could work with them. Here is the test. If you guys have Jags then breed two together. If they produce Leucies then you have an argument. If they do not then they are not jags. Simply put.



Matt you have put all of my hungover thoughts into words that can be comprehended! I applaude you!

And you are soooooooooooo right on the money as far as i'm concerned about the albinos.


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## bigguy (May 26, 2007)

I was told the same person who imported 40 Green Pythons and some of the Jags just last year was in fact the same person who exported the Albino Darwins. Wonder what he was paid for them!!!!


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## bigguy (May 26, 2007)

Looking at those Jag hatchlings at the start, I would have to say apart from the Albino Carpets these are the nicest Carpets I have ever seen. If they were breed legally in Australia I most certainly would try to get some. Simply awesome looking snakes.


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## TrueBlue (May 26, 2007)

ok found them, i was looking on the wrong cd, there are also a few more pics of this animal that i will try and track down.


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## zulu (May 26, 2007)

*re O7*

Be alright if the light babys stayed that way or do they go drab like the adults,havent seen any adults that are much to look at,not saying adults couldnt look the goods,they must be out there surely,people wouldnt pay heaps for snakes that look ordinary as adults would they?


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## Frozenmouse (May 26, 2007)

Albinos will randomly pop up in populations jaguar color forms are selectively bred..
btw how awesome is that snake ..


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## Jungleland (May 26, 2007)

*Mcdowelli*

Here's pics, one of my pure Mcdowelli, I have posted pics of this on moreliapythons.com and few JAG owners commented that it is close to JAGS that they seen or even keep.

I like him a lot  hope you guys do.
Regards,
Joel


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## Frozenmouse (May 26, 2007)

i recon she qualifys as a jag ..


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## steve6610 (May 26, 2007)

nice wild jag rob, and thats a hot hatchy joel, i always believe we can breed jags in australia, not sure when, but it looks like there are a few getting closer,


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## Jungleland (May 26, 2007)

Thanks Dabool and steve 
Pics of sibling, which I also like


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## Gabe (May 26, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> ok found them, i was looking on the wrong cd, there are also a few more pics of this animal that i will try and track down.



Rob, that Jag you posted looks a lot like Jan Eric's founder male...


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

If i didn't know better i would have said that one was a jag TB it is a wild looking animal. Jungleland that is a ripper looking snake. It is getting close to looking like a jag.


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## zulu (May 26, 2007)

*re 07*

So there it is Trueblue,thats the best adult ive seen anywhere,absolutely spectacular,if they grow into something like that ime impressed,your examples are nice also jungleland.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> ok found them, i was looking on the wrong cd, there are also a few more pics of this animal that i will try and track down.



I recon i've seen these pics before. have you ever posted them previously?


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## TrueBlue (May 26, 2007)

no i havnt posted them before, thoses pics were taken by the bloke who caught it or someone he knows. A good friend of mine has some pics of the same animal that he took himself and i will try and get hold of them and post them.

gabe, yes thats what i recon too, this snake was the exact same morph and showed the same traits as the pics ive seen of the first jag.


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## NickM (May 26, 2007)

jags are a mutation and there really has not been much i the way of selective breeding of them, unless you count hybridizing them.

Its absolutely is possible for the same mutation to randomly occur in Australia. There are albino and piebald ball pythons imported from the wild every year for example.. 
There arer at least 8 different lines of Luecistic ball pythons as well, all the visual hets look a little different yet all are compatable and all came out of the wild and are unrelated.

There are many different strains of some snake morphs and this one is not unique in any way
So its quite plausible that it could occur again in Australia, however when they do hit the open market in Australia it will almost certainly be the descendants of smuggled animals, regardless of whatever stories are told.

Nick


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

Rob, that snake does look remarkably like the original Jag, it really is uncanny.


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

Well I guess there is a very good reason that snake looked uncannily like the founding Jaguar, that IS the founding Jaguar. LOL.
http://www.morelia-reptor.com/m-reptor_j-h/founder.html


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## Hetty (May 26, 2007)

:lol:


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

So the original Jaguar came from here after all LOL


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## Hetty (May 26, 2007)

So, did someone pull TBs legs or was he pulling ours?


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

I think the former but we might be told it was the latter.


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## stevel (May 26, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> ok found them, i was looking on the wrong cd, there are also a few more pics of this animal that i will try and track down.



Sorry but thats jan erics pictures and not wild caught 
i have the same pictures on my pc


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

I think that conclusion has already been reached LOL.


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## stevel (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> I think that conclusion has already been reached LOL.



yes i didnt get to this page when i viewed that guys so called wild caught Jags 

MUHAHA


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## MrSpike (May 26, 2007)

What does all this make this Proserpine? I'm am curious, he is only 2 years old, and still colouring up.

Kane


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

It makes it a nice looking Proserpine, not very Jaggish but nice.


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## MrSpike (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> It makes it a nice looking Proserpine, not very Jaggish but nice.



I know, its my new super het bareback tiger het reduced pattern line.

Would it be considered as a "morph"?

Kane


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

Uuuuhhhh..................no.


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## Hetty (May 26, 2007)

He's very nice though Kane


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## Jungle_Freak (May 26, 2007)

I want to see photos of the Aus jags offered for sale on this thread ,

Hey Joel, your jag looking offspring look unreal and are the closest match ive seen bred in australia, 
i hope that they are a pair because i do beleive you are on the right track , 
jag looking carpets can and will be bred here , but they will not be hets for leucism ,ie like true jags 
they will be a reduced pattern morph with hypo coastal gene to inhance colours ,
A Different genetic make up to overseas jags,
Excellant selective breeding programe Joel
cheers Roger


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## Australis (May 26, 2007)

You make a realistic prediction there JF.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> Well I guess there is a very good reason that snake looked uncannily like the founding Jaguar, that IS the founding Jaguar. LOL.
> http://www.morelia-reptor.com/m-reptor_j-h/founder.html



OMG LOL i knew i had seen it before  what a crack up. Is it possible the original jag was smuggled out of Australia?


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

No I don't think that was the case, I was only joking when I said that.


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## TrueBlue (May 26, 2007)

sorry my mistake, it must only be the last pic that is of the animal in question. Ive just got a cd with a whole heap of pics and a couple of them are of this wild caught carpet.
I will get these pics that a mate of mine has taken of it and post them, he was here when i posted those pics and also thought it was the same snake that he had seen, so it is very simular. Hes sure the pic with it in with another carpet is the animal im talking about.


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

Mmm, I guess that must be common paint colour ? The last snake is the same animal.


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## zulu (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> Well I guess there is a very good reason that snake looked uncannily like the founding Jaguar, that IS the founding Jaguar. LOL.
> http://www.morelia-reptor.com/m-reptor_j-h/founder.html


 Cant get the story boa,you have to download japanese stuff that dont work,is that supposed to be the coastal father that produced the first clutch of jags,or is it a jag from the first clutch produced from the normal coastal parents.


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## cement (May 26, 2007)

I've asked the question about Jaguars in Aus before. To my eye they are absolutly stunning snakes.
Good work Joel either way they look an awesome animal.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> Mmm, I guess that must be common paint colour ? The last snake is the same animal.



Beat me to it boa lol.

The only pic in that set that is not in the same enclosure is the 2nd pic. But then that could be just from a diff angle. I really hate doubting you TBbecause you have never given me any reason to before.

Did you actually see the snake in person or just the photo's? I'm beginning to think you were led up the garden path.


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

My Japanese is sketchy, I think that was the founding animal, the first Jag bred by Jan.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

Jan's site is being updated at the moment (jaguarpython.com) it has some of the same pics from the site you posted boa so who knows could be another one of Jan's.


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## zulu (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> My Japanese is sketchy, I think that was the founding animal, the first Jag bred by Jan.


 KaneeeecheeWAH Boa San,ime hunbled by youy generous response grasshopper!


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

The photo's I posted is the founder bred by Jan.



waruikazi said:


> Jan's site is being updated at the moment (jaguarpython.com) it has some of the same pics from the site you posted boa so who knows could be another one of Jan's.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> The photo's I posted is the founder bred by Jan.



Sorry i meant to say that Jan might own the other website aswell.


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

Oh right, no it isn't his site but it has the story of the founding snake on there, if of course you could read Japanese.



waruikazi said:


> Sorry i meant to say that Jan might own the other website aswell.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

I can read it... just can't translate lol.


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

LOL.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to hear there are wild snakes like that here but it was never really likely.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

I really want TB's story to get confirmed. Cause then there is some kind of hope that we will get to own jags legally in Aus.


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## zulu (May 26, 2007)

*re O7*

Is there pics of the parents of the founder jag?


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## MrSpike (May 26, 2007)

boa said:


> LOL.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I would love to hear there are wild snakes like that here but it was never really likely.



But why not. I am not 100% up to date with genetics, actually I'm pretty crap with them, but where did the coastal carpet's from America and Europe come for? Australia.

For example, in the wild there are het's for whatever, you just can tell which are and which aren't, now if you look at the Jaguar Gene, there will be animals that carry the jaguar gene, you just cant tell which are and which aren't. So its just by chance that one popped up OS first, and if one was bred in the wild, it would also have a lesser chance of survival because of its colours, correct? Similar to the albino. Just a thought that popped up, someone will probably prove it wrong.

Kane


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

zulu said:


> Is there pics of the parents of the founder jag?



From memory there is on the jag breeding centre website. But we will have to wait till it is up and running again.


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## Jungle_Freak (May 26, 2007)

There were pics of the parents of the first jag on Jans web site in the beginning , then they were removed for some reason ???
one parent looked like a brissy coastal the other parent looked like a crappy looking jungle, 
but definatly a jungle in my opinion ,,
but the pics were removed never to be seen again

wish i had of saved the parent pics now LOLs ????


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> But why not. I am not 100% up to date with genetics, actually I'm pretty crap with them, but where did the coastal carpet's from America and Europe come for? Australia.
> 
> For example, in the wild there are het's for whatever, you just can tell which are and which aren't, now if you look at the Jaguar Gene, there will be animals that carry the jaguar gene, you just cant tell which are and which aren't. So its just by chance that one popped up OS first, and if one was bred in the wild, it would also have a lesser chance of survival because of its colours, correct? Similar to the albino. Just a thought that popped up, someone will probably prove it wrong.
> 
> Kane



Yes you can tell what animals carry the Jag gene. A jag is a visual het for leucism. They carry one leucistic gene which is recessive (i think or it could be co-dominant), if you can't see jag in them they do not have the 'jag' gene.


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## hornet (May 26, 2007)

the animals jags came from did come from aus but it was just a mutated gene, it is possible it can happen here but its a very very slim chance.


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## MrSpike (May 26, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Yes you can tell what animals carry the Jag gene. A jag is a visual het for leucism. They carry one leucistic gene which is recessive (i think or it could be co-dominant), if you can't see jag in them they do not have the 'jag' gene.



Then that would mean that the first one was line bred, because the adults where normal. Or am I wrong?

I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just trying to figure the situation out...

Kane


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## hornet (May 26, 2007)

no it wouldnt be line bred, it would have popped up from two normal parents, the "jag" gene is like the albino gene in a way, it just pops up, you dont line breed to get it the way you do with stripes.


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## MrSpike (May 26, 2007)

Then that proves my first post?


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Then that would mean that the first one was line bred, because the adults where normal. Or am I wrong?
> 
> I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just trying to figure the situation out...
> 
> Kane



No the first one was spontaneous. Genetic mutations like this are a by chance occurance, there is no way of predicting when, where and to who the gene is goign to change.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Then that proves my first post?



If you mean that they could exist in the wild yes you are right. Just very very unlikey to happen.


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## hornet (May 26, 2007)

basicly, the only thing you got wrong if there is no het for "jag". "jag" is het for leucism. It has the same chance that a jag will pop up in aus as over seas, they were just lucky but it is still very unlikely


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## MrSpike (May 26, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> No the first one was spontaneous. Genetic mutations like this are a by chance occurance, there is no way of predicting when, where and to who the gene is goign to change.



Exactly, so why couldn't one spontaneously pop up in the wild or someone's collection?

Although I do agree that if they are here they probably are illegal imports, unless DNA testing proves otherwise. If I had the chance to get on in the future I sure would get one.




hornet said:


> basicly, the only thing you got wrong if there is no het for "jag". "jag" is het for leucism. It has the same chance that a jag will pop up in aus as over seas, they were just lucky but it is still very unlikely



I was using the albino hets as en example  I meant animals that carry the gene.. 

Geez I really have to word things properly 

Kane


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## Australis (May 26, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> There were pics of the parents of the first jag on Jans web site in the beginning , then they were removed for some reason ???
> one parent looked like a brissy coastal the other parent looked like a crappy looking jungle,
> but definatly a jungle in my opinion ,,
> but the pics were removed never to be seen again
> ...



Funny, how they got removed never to return.

I wonder if it was because of all the talk of the PNG Carpets being in the mix?


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## ihaveherps (May 26, 2007)

hmmm, where do i start...

to my knowledge, the founder jag was purchased by Jan, not produced by him, hence why the parents pictures arent there any more...

Jags are co-dom, hence the super form, which is a leucistuc.... so jags didnt come to be because of 2 hets being bred or whatever other theories are, Jags came about via a spontaneous mutation, which means there was a quirk in the embrionic development, which has effected the colour and pattern genes.


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## Jungle_Freak (May 26, 2007)

AUSTRALIS wrote 

" I wonder if it was because of all the talk of the PNG Carpets being in the mix?" 

its was the pure coastal lineage statement made by Jan on his cite 
to which i beleive the parents photos clearly showed the uncurtain ancestry in one parent ,


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## zulu (May 26, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> There were pics of the parents of the first jag on Jans web site in the beginning , then they were removed for some reason ???
> one parent looked like a brissy coastal the other parent looked like a crappy looking jungle,
> but definatly a jungle in my opinion ,,
> but the pics were removed never to be seen again
> ...


 Save any debate showing the parents off for sure,its just standard practice,good looking snakes anyway,like the ones on the UK pythons website.


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## waruikazi (May 26, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Exactly, so why couldn't one spontaneously pop up in the wild or someone's collection?
> 
> Although I do agree that if they are here they probably are illegal imports, unless DNA testing proves otherwise. If I had the chance to get on in the future I sure would get one.
> 
> ...



They could. Absolutely no reason why it couldn't happen


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## MrSpike (May 26, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> They could. Absolutely no reason why it couldn't happen



cheers, thats all I was trying to figure out


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## cma_369 (May 26, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> There were pics of the parents of the first jag on Jans web site in the beginning , then they were removed for some reason ???
> one parent looked like a brissy coastal the other parent looked like a crappy looking jungle,
> but definatly a jungle in my opinion ,,
> but the pics were removed never to be seen again
> ...


Email the site and see if you can get the pics agen. We probably know what the result will be already though


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## ihaveherps (May 26, 2007)

Although the chances of the exact spontaneous mutation popping up again are extremely slim... thousands, if not millions to one... although on the whole, spontaneous mutations are quite common, to varying degrees, and in all honesty having another spontaneous mutation, different, yet no less extreme is more likely.


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

The first Jag was produced by Jan and just popped out of a normal looking clutch, if he had purchased the snake why isn't the breeder credited with creating the Jag line ?



ihaveherps said:


> hmmm, where do i start...
> 
> to my knowledge, the founder jag was purchased by Jan, not produced by him, hence why the parents pictures arent there any more...
> 
> Jags are co-dom, hence the super form, which is a leucistuc.... so jags didnt come to be because of 2 hets being bred or whatever other theories are, Jags came about via a spontaneous mutation, which means there was a quirk in the embrionic development, which has effected the colour and pattern genes.


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## Jungle_Freak (May 26, 2007)

Spontaneous mutations are rare indeed 
but a mutation created from a cross breeding of subspecies or species is more common,
and the reason its is legislated against in QLD fauna laws,


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## ihaveherps (May 26, 2007)

Boa, as I understand the situation, Jan spotted it in a collection and bought it... and I only read this in the big Jag thread on MP.com, not a few months ago... and if I remember correctly a european based herper and supposed friend of Jan posted it. Go back through the threads there and look for yourself... Although Jan did work the line to some degree to bring it to the point it is today.


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## ihaveherps (May 26, 2007)

Boa, just went back through MP, and the database doesnt go back very far time wise... Although i do remember the thread well, and the yanks were whinging about Jan not chiming in to the thread, and the european fella was passing messages in for him, and clarifying the situation... believe me, I wouldnt have added it to the thread as pure speculation.


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## stevel (May 26, 2007)

ihaveherps said:


> Boa, as I understand the situation, Jan spotted it in a collection and bought it... and I only read this in the big Jag thread on MP.com, not a few months ago... and if I remember correctly a european based herper and supposed friend of Jan posted it. Go back through the threads there and look for yourself... Although Jan did work the line to some degree to bring it to the point it is today.



email jan direct [email protected] he produced them as boa has said i have had a few chats with him via email 
he has moved so there may be a delay in his reply 
Steve


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## Auzlizardking (May 26, 2007)

Thanks to all the people who sent PMs - I have been told - The Jags are now sold! They went very quickly.


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## junglemad (May 26, 2007)

if Joel's carpets aren't jags then what are they? keep your American snakes


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## Retic (May 26, 2007)

JAGS AREN'T AMERICAN. Joels snakes are beautiful reduced pattern carpets.


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## Matt Brock (May 26, 2007)

Ihaveherps, the original male was NOT produced by someone else. I have talked directly to Jan about this. Whether they were pure coastal may be debateable as I stated, but he did in fact produce the first male himself.


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## Pike01 (May 26, 2007)

here are couple of jag look alikes I am working on, wouldn't call them reduced pattern as the light colour is the pattern and the darker pattern is actually the ground colour.most have probably seen these before, gotta take some new ones.


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## hornet (May 27, 2007)

they are stunning pike


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## Pike01 (May 27, 2007)

thanks


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## da_donkey (May 27, 2007)

This thread is mad i love it....


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## Southside Morelia (May 27, 2007)

Atleast we all agree their beautiful animals. Let's stop splitting hairs and breed own own... I'm sure in time we will get there and not pay the ludricous $5k that was being asked for the "Aussie jag" originally advertised on this post...I know where my money's going next season and i'm pretty sure it's going to be close to the mark and alot less than that price!!!


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## ihaveherps (May 27, 2007)

Boa, Stevel, and Matt, I have to agree with you, but only because after searching MP I cannot find the posts I reference... although around the same time Mp closed for a short period due to fighting, and the thread had spun out of control.... but I suppose it all amounts to hear-say without any links to be provided.


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## NickM (May 27, 2007)

I was involved in the thread you mentioned here are some of the important details:

There are a few , well known former associates of Jans who claim that he did NOT produce the founder animal and so he really doesent know what it it is for certain.

"Herpkeeping in some EU countries is very restricted, from what I hear the animal was being kept illegally in a different EU country. The story goes that Jan traded some animal for it.

Jan was only liscensed to keep coastals in Norway so thats what he claimed it was, saying that it spontaeously hatched from his coastal adults.

There have never been any pics of the parents on his site, or any pics of the siblings to the founder animal from that clutch, its as if it just magically appeared.

In this scenario , it is impossible to tell if the founder was a pure coastal but they are represented as pure coastals.

In the early jag clutches the siblings looked very bright and resembled intergrades, but with time and more generations of being bred to coastals they now look like average coastals. This fuels speculation that the founder was something other than a pure coastal and that it has been slowly bred out with each generation.


So it depends on who you believe. I personally seriously doubt Jans story for many reasons. 

It is worth mentioning that the two europeans who provided this information do believe that the founder Jag is most likely a coastal, based mostly on what was availble in Europe at the time.

It also came out in that thread that Jan Eric had been busted for animal smuggling previously, between two European countries. Wich he did not deny when he posted on that thread.

Nick


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## Australis (May 27, 2007)

Intresting post Nick,



NickM said:


> Jan was only liscensed to keep coastals in Norway so thats what he claimed it was, saying that it spontaeously hatched from his coastal adults.
> Nick



Its a good point, he wasnt exactly in a position to declare them anything but Pure Coastals, for risk of losing everything.

I also found it intresting that not much was said about any further breed results from the so called normal coastal pair that is ment to have produced the founder jag, the weirdest Carpet morph in history pops out, and not attempt to try for more?

Alot of things dont add up in the Jaguar story, makes for great reading :shock:


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## Zanejb (May 27, 2007)

id just like to mention to a few people on here that you can LEGALLY import animals from over seas, the process is long and hard but it is possable. i dont see the issue either with jags POSSABLE being $5000? this seams like a reasonable price for a mutation and even if these snakes are imported how else are you supposed to get the mutation here in aus if it hasnt been found in this country? of course itll be an import. after seeing the posts made on here i have decided that i would refuse to have one of these snakes as this is the kind of rubbish that happens people fight and debate about something that really isnt that important. the snake is a snake thats a little different from others and thats all so why all this fighting? if the snakes arent here in aus (and im not saying they arent cos they may be i dont know) then why worry about them at this stage. 

and no offence to the american guy who has been posting but youve made 6 posts lol how do we know its not one of the aussie guys here with a different account trying to get his own way?


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## NickM (May 27, 2007)

He never mentions breeding the founder jags parents again, never breeds the founder Jag back to its mother, Never breeds the Founder Jag to its siblings. and Never breeds any of the founder jags siblings together. All of these things would be the logical thing to do with an animal like that.

Also have not found a single person who owns any of the siblings to the founder jag yet it must have had siblings that were sold to someone.

He is writing an article for Reptiles magazine about Jags and will supposedly have pics of everything. But this only comes after 13 years and lots of rumors so at this point it seems a littel convenient to finally find some pics of these animals.

It all fits perfectly with the alternate story that he did not produce the founder animal. 
People can and will believe what they want but I am a species purist and wont work with them becasue I can never be sure if they are really pure coastals with any degree of certainty.

Nick


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## firefly_ (May 27, 2007)

I'm in the US...do you know how much he/she is selling them for? Do they have a website w/ information?


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## Jungle_Freak (May 27, 2007)

Hello Nick, 
your statement below is incorrect mate ,
Quote ,There have never been any pics of the parents on his site, or any pics of the siblings to the founder animal from that clutch, its as if it just magically appeared. end quote 

The " claimed" ??parents photos were there on Jans site for atleast a year maybe 2 years in the early days when the first lot of hatchling jags and sibs were sent to america by Jan, thus kicking off the jags in the USA 

i have herd jungles cannot be kept legally in Norway ?

And one parent did look like a crappy looking jungle , then this could be why the pics were removed ,
Roger


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## Jungle_Freak (May 27, 2007)

Heres a saved image of another pure coastal ? a pattern variation green spotted coastal from Jans site from the same time the parent pics were also on the site, 
The Green spotted carpet looks like a diamond cross coastal to me , but at the time Jan claimed this one was pure coastal ,but when the parent of the first jag pics were removed so was this pic of the green spotted carpet,

i also have attached a scanned print out photo and text from Jans site with Jans description of the Jag sib , 
he keeps reffering to jungle type charactoristics in many of his descritpions of his pure coastals , which does not make sence if the jags are pure coastal, 
seems a odd way to give a decription to me ??

i wish i had saved every photo and text from each page of Jans site in the early days ,
Also there quite a few more jag sib pics from juniors clutch , the second ever jag ,
and these sibs all looks like jungles or jungle cross coastals , 
all these pics dissappeared along with parent pics ,
Jag ancestry is muddy at best,


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## Retic (May 27, 2007)

That green spotted animal is weird, although I can see what you mean about the Diamond influence it seem to lack the yellow tipping on the scales and the scales seem to be a solid green. 
There is so much speculation and theorising over the origins of the snakes. We hear about and see so much variation in coastals but when we see this sort of extreme variation we doubt the authenticity.
There is only one person who knows for sure.


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## Jungle_Freak (May 27, 2007)

Ok i have found some old pages from Jans site i saved to CD , 
but not the page with the first jags parent pics ,
if anyone wants a copy of all the pages i have, then pm me , ill send you a copy ,
makes interesting reading


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## NickM (May 27, 2007)

Roger, I remember that pic of the diamond X coastal. we see animals over here from time to time that look nearly identical and all that I have seen were known intergrades. 

I mis-spoke earlier but I still dont remember pics of the original sire that supposedly produced the founder jag though its possible that they were pulled early, befrore I ever saw the site.

Look at the pic of the "pure coastal" sibling. None produced in the US or Europe today look anything like that, If the founder animal was an intergrade then with each generation they are bred to pure coastals they look more normal. The Jag sibs from coastal clutches produced in the US today look complety normal , as if the intergrade blood is being reduced with each generation.

It all makes a compelling case to doubt the story of its origins to say the least.

I will mention that some the European sources who have told me much of this about Jan Eric still believe that they are in fact coastals, they said the original sibling pics were altered in photoshop to look more like jungles.

Only one person knows for sure. For me there is too much doubt to work with them.

Morphs are interesting but nothing compares to some of the locality coastals you guys have access to.

Nick


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## ad (May 27, 2007)

NickM said:


> It all makes a compelling case to doubt the story of its origins to say the least.
> 
> Morphs are interesting but nothing compares to some of the locality coastals you guys have access to.
> 
> Nick




I find Morphs clouded with secrecy to be suspect, what is the harm with detailing the lineage?

Isnt funny how some want what the yanks have and they all want what we have, and yet we are told we need to follow their trends?

Good on ya Nick, I enjoy your posts.
Cheers
Adam.


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## Jungleland (May 27, 2007)

All this JAG talk, politics and speculation is exciting me  
Who really knows what we can come up with here in OZ, A lot of people
are selectively breeding this days and putting effort on their project, more herpers are breeding.
we may not hit the JAG gene but it's possible that we will, even possible to get something else, maybe even better in the future ahhhhh who knows..... All I know is that morelia future here in Oz is gonna be even more exciting.

Here's another pics of sibling that my mate owns, I happen to like her too 

Kind Regards,
Joel


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## Jungle_Freak (May 27, 2007)

NOW THOSE I WOULD CALL OZ JAGS , or reduced pattern proserpines ,
So very close to the real thing and almost too hard to tell the difference , now just loose the spot on the nose next breeding ??
is the pattern trait proven Joel ,?
and please post parent pics , 
because it is the vibrant adult colours that give Jags there appeal as well as the pattern ,
Roger


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## steve6610 (May 27, 2007)

not up to your standard yet joel, but i think jag or not jags, there are some bloody stunning patterned coastals starting to show up, and the more that people breed for colour/pattern the better they are going to be, 
i have posted some of these pics before, but i think over the next few years we are going to see a lot of interest coming back for the plain old coastals,


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## Frozenmouse (May 27, 2007)

I am with jungleland there are some pretty cool color forms already starting to show up ..
i think judging by the response to this thread there is a lot of interest in this direction..


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## SnakePower (May 27, 2007)

Here is part of a project I am working on, I think we are not that far off. There are a few herper's in Aust. now, that are very close to projucing very very Jag like animals!!
Roger, hey look... the spot on the nose has reduced in this one!!






Regards,
Zac.


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## viridis (May 27, 2007)

Have a look at that last cracker that joel posted ,:shock: very nice mate!

At the end of the day a HOT looking snake will allways sell, regardsless of what it is or what locale it is from.

On breeding some of these wild looking morelias together, one could only dream about what the outcome would look like.

Anyway , here is a pic of one of my favourite morelias that I own

Any more pics of that beauty Joel 

There sure are some stunning animals in this thread

Nick


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## da_donkey (May 27, 2007)

Damn Nick!!!!

I love your ghosts, IMO they are the hottest Morelias getting around (kick albino bum) anychance you'll be selling any of them 

Donk


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## viridis (May 27, 2007)

I was too slack on the feeding side of things last year, so i have missed the boat on breeding them this season ( as in now lol ). I will have to wait untill next year  Arh well the joys of breeding critters

nick


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## Retic (May 27, 2007)

Joel, I agree totally. The next few years are going to be extremely exciting and hopefully we will be able to share in the excitement the rest of the reptile world has experienced over the last 10 years or so. Those Proserpines are just beautiful and are looking very Jag like indeed. 
I find it very exciting as Jags and Carpondros are 2 of my favourite snakes so to see Jag like animals here is heartening. 
I look forward to when the light background colour totally covers the body and the pattern is reduced to literally nothing. It isn't too far away I think.


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## Jungleland (May 27, 2007)

Nice crtitters guys 
Nick you know my thoughts about them ghost, send them my way anytime you feel like 
I make sure I look after them for you.
Here's another project i'm looking forward on breeding, she's seem to amaze me everytime she shed, she's got jagish but not as reduced pattern but possess some awsome colour.
I'll put her with her sibling and will keep my fingers and legs cross, if it all works out on the reduced pattern and carries the brightness on offsprings mmmm I promise I will be one happy herper  

Enjoy!

Joel


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## vinspa (May 27, 2007)

heres one of ours not a jag


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## hornet (May 27, 2007)

nick, are they ghost darwins? what do they go for?


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## Jungle_Freak (May 27, 2007)

TOTALLY HOT CARPETS EVERYONE 
plenty of jagish good looks in all of them,
Well done breeders 
cheers
Roger


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## Southside Morelia (May 27, 2007)

Where do I buy them????
What awesome carpets!!!!
You know what I think of yours Roger, top notch and some of you other guys, well what can I say... can't wait till next year, as long as they don't go for tooooo much.


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## TrueBlue (May 27, 2007)

No i never saw the animal im talking about, only been told about it by 2-3 people that did.
A good friend of mine that did see it and took a few pics of it was sure that those pics i posted were of the animal he saw. Obviously it is not but it must look pretty dam close for him to belive it was the same snake. Ive got him on the case to find these pics he took of it and as soon as he finds them ill post them here.
So yes ive been lead up the merry path a bit, but not on purpose as this guy dose know his snakes and i have no reason to dought him.
Hell im hanging to see these pics now since i stuffed up the first time, i certainly hope its all what i keep getting told about.


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## Retic (May 27, 2007)

Rob, you know I like a good stir with you as much as the next man but originally you said you saw the snake (in photo's) and it was as good as the original Jag, now you haven't actually seen the snake but other people have told you about it ? Having now seen the photo's of the 'wild' Aussie Jag you can understand a certain amount of scepticism I think


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## TrueBlue (May 27, 2007)

yeah those pics i posted were the pics that i refered to that i had seen and was told it was this animal, but its not so i have yet to see a pic of it. As said though i dont dought this guy who saw it and took some pics, sure its obviously not the same animal but it must look very simular.
Will track down these pics as he said he has a awsome shot of it on the lawn.


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## Retic (May 27, 2007)

I do look forward to seeing them. If it looks half as good it will be a stunner.


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## stevel (May 27, 2007)

Blimey some of the morelia in this thread are as good as jags .i cant see why you guys cannot produce somthing thats as good if not better .you have these snakes in your gardens .
i would give my jags and diamonds to have a few of what you can have ...


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## waruikazi (May 27, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> yeah those pics i posted were the pics that i refered to that i had seen and was told it was this animal, but its not so i have yet to see a pic of it. As said though i dont dought this guy who saw it and took some pics, sure its obviously not the same animal but it must look very simular.
> Will track down these pics as he said he has a awsome shot of it on the lawn.



I'm eagerly awaiting these pics!! Hope that we do have a hope of one day owning them here.


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## ihaveherps (May 27, 2007)

Thanks NickM ( I assume Nick Mutton sp.) for verifying the founder jag story for me... as I said in a later post, that without evidence, my post amounted to no more than hear-say, and I was feeling quite the fool not being able to find the thread. I much appreciate not looking the fool (on this occasion anyway) as I was certain of the information I had gathered, just the lacking evidence.

Regards,
Simon


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## MrSpike (May 27, 2007)

All this talk of them being here via illegal importation got me thinking, if they are here.. and are being sold, what would the authorities be able to do about it? Say if i bought an "Jag" from Jan's line from someone in aus, would I get in trouble? Would the person i bought it from be in trouble? Would the authorities be able to do anything about it?

Kane


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## da_donkey (May 27, 2007)

Has anyone heard of RSP's in Europe or the States, i bet they would go for a pretty penny over there.

Donk


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## MrSpike (May 27, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Has anyone heard of RSP's in Europe or the States, i bet they would go for a pretty penny over there.
> 
> Donk



Give it 2 years :lol:


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## bigguy (May 27, 2007)

RSP's are allready in the States. The ARP legally sold some to a zoo in the USA. Wont be long till they breed them and they hit the public market.


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## stevel (May 27, 2007)

ihaveherps said:


> Thanks NickM ( I assume Nick Mutton sp.) for verifying the founder jag story for me... as I said in a later post, that without evidence, my post amounted to no more than hear-say, and I was feeling quite the fool not being able to find the thread. I much appreciate not looking the fool (on this occasion anyway) as I was certain of the information I had gathered, just the lacking evidence.
> 
> Regards,
> Simon



Sorry Simon but Nick has only put his opinion over ..what Nick says is his arguement not fact ..
lets face it Nick even said himself that he had not seen the website when all the appropriate 
information was up .My self included but i have shared emails with Jan and beleive what he has said .
Nick is just againts the idea because he likes proof of ancestry which has not been supplied so he doubts the origins of the jags
This does not prove that he or you are correct .there are pictures of the founder jags parents and they are going to be published as Nick has already suggested .
This debate about the founder can go on forever lets hope that it doesnt end up closed like on mp.com.
But if Jan Eric does not come through with the article in the magazine hes promised, i will then be on Nicks side of the arguement ...But never the less i will continue to keep jags in my collection for as long as i can ..

nobody said you looked the fool either lol


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## theduclos (May 27, 2007)

I havnt seen this mentioned whilst reading this thread but why cant these jags be proven the same or different using DNA examination. A painless blood or saliva swipe the check the different mutations the either prove or disprove Aust Jags. or any other mutation for that matter. Eg have a set of bloodlines for each snake and there mutations. 

This post is given even though i have no knowledge of snakes, just from studying genetics at school.

Edit: I did find some on pg 10. However this poses other questions such cloning to get Jags?


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## fishead (May 27, 2007)

Hey TB, did the guy that said he personally saw that snake send you the pics you posted?
If so Iguess we can all work the rest out hey.


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## Pike01 (May 27, 2007)

Heres a girl i bred that should be big enough to breed next year.


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## Jungleland (May 27, 2007)

*Awsome*

Hi Mike,

Well what can I say, that is just a perfect tiger looking carpet.:shock: 

Just Awsome!!!!

Good Luck on breeding her 

Joel


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## NickM (May 28, 2007)

As Stevel said there are two sides to this arguement, we are on opposite sides.

I would point out that even if he posts pics it still proves nothing. Anyone can post pics of any animal they want and claim it to be the parents of whatever they want.

The arguement is that Jan is dishonest, so for those of us that beleive that he is dishonest, why should we believe it now just because he writes an article. Just becasue its in a magazine wont make it true.

I dont want this thread to turn into an arguement like it has many times on MP.com
Most of the information and viewws have been presented and poeple can make up their own minds about them.

I have also really enjoyed some of the pics posted here. It seems that people always want what they cant have. It seems like many here would like the jags but all many of us want are the locality animals you work with.

Nick


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## Splitmore (May 28, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> ok found them, i was looking on the wrong cd, there are also a few more pics of this animal that i will try and track down.



If that animal is fresh out of the bush I'll eat my hat!!! That is the fattest, healthiest cleanest looking 'wild' carpet I've ever seen!!


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## Retic (May 28, 2007)

We have actually established that it is the original Jag, bred in Norway. I must admit looking at the photo it doesn't look much like a wild snake though.


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## TrueBlue (May 28, 2007)

fishead, yeah the cd i got the pics off is his, he lives not far from me and lent in to me.
He still talks about this snake quite regulary and says its the hottest carpet he has ever seen.
I also know the guy that caught it pretty well and he also says the same thing.
The other person that ive spoken to that saw it was a bloke called Paul Gill, and once again everytime i talk to him he raves about what this snake was like.
So all in all a dont dought them, if i had heard about it from only one person i would not be as eager to belive it, but when the 3 of them describe it the same, i do tend to belive them.
As said he took some pics himself of it and is going thru all his cd pic collection to find them, when he does ill post them.


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## fishead (May 28, 2007)

Oh ok mate. He must have sent those pics of the founder jag male to compare the wild one with maybe?
My head hurts - too much rum last night - not good.


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## TrueBlue (May 28, 2007)

i have come across a handfull of carpets on call outs over the years that have been in that sort of condition, not often but occasionally they turn up.
This animal was supposed to be like that as well, they"ve all said it was around 5-6 feet and as thick as your arm. Time will tell once i track down some pics of it.


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## steve6610 (May 28, 2007)

this was a wild prossy coastal that was brought to me by a mate whos wife wanted it dead, he knew i would look after it and get it back into the wild where it belonged, but it was in better condition then a lot of captive snakes i've seen, so i have to agree, just by the condition you can't be 100% certain to be wild or captive, this coastal was released just after the pics, 

forgot to add, she was a bit muddy from being pulled out of a muddy drain, also you can see the scape marks on her, i didn't do any of this as i received her/him in a bag,


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## steve6610 (May 28, 2007)

this coastals was about 5 to 6 ft, and in perfect condition to breed, i had a bit of an idea she may have been gravid, if it was a she, lol,


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## ihaveherps (May 28, 2007)

Nick and Steve, I suffer insomnia so when I dont sleep I spend alot of time on MP, and am very aware of the split in opinions on the Jag debate... and from the information I have read, I have to admit that I stand on the same side as Nick, maybe not as sceptical, but still on the same side. Jan Eric Engell only has himself to blame for the opinions of the sceptics, and although I am also looking forward to his article, it will be hard to digest as gospel for me.

As mentioned before, I dont want this thread to head into the depths of Jan bashing, rather I was just stating my understanding of the debate.


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## Luke_G (May 28, 2007)

Awesum Looking pythons!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!


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## Rennie (Jun 16, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> All this talk of them being here via illegal importation got me thinking, if they are here.. and are being sold, what would the authorities be able to do about it? Say if i bought an "Jag" from Jan's line from someone in aus, would I get in trouble? Would the person i bought it from be in trouble? Would the authorities be able to do anything about it?
> 
> Kane



So I take it you haven't heard about all the GTP's the government confiscated?
I really don't know anything about it either, but I've read a rumour somewhere bigguy lost a few that ended up in zoos.
A bit of an expensive risk to take!


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## Chimera (Jun 16, 2007)

Rennie said:


> So I take it you haven't heard about all the GTP's the government confiscated?
> I really don't know anything about it either, but I've read a rumour somewhere bigguy lost a few that ended up in zoos.
> A bit of an expensive risk to take!



No rumour, heard it from the man himself.


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