# Snake Positive Reinforcement?



## Konjira (Jul 25, 2012)

I was having this discussion with my partner the other night. I have a lot of experience training other animals like dogs, cats and birds using positive reinforcement, but I was wondering if there was such a thing for snakes? Generally I use treats and physical praise for other animals, however I can't imagine that a snake would react the same way. I mean, you can't exactly give them treats for good behaviour. 

Maybe particular ways of petting/stroking your snake that it evidently enjoys? Does your snake react positively to certain actions? Do you believe a snake can truly be trained?


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## shellfisch (Jul 25, 2012)

Konjira said:


> Do you believe a snake can truly be trained?



Umm.. NO

There are some who like to attribute human like feelings and reactions to their reptiles, but for me, that's a 'hell no' :lol:


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## mikey_mike (Jul 25, 2012)

I've trained my python to eat rodents.


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## Jacknifejimmy (Jul 25, 2012)

I've trained my snakes to balance on logs for an infinite amount of time.


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## Umbral (Jul 25, 2012)

Jacknifejimmy said:


> I've trained my snakes to balance on logs for an infinite amount of time.


That's nothing, mine could be world champion at a staring contest!

Back on topic, as snakes don't feel emotion and merely tolerate handling I'm not sure this would work.


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## Nathan_T (Jul 25, 2012)

This topic comes up every once in a while.

Structurally, a snake's brain is extremely limited. Dogs, cats and even most birds would be described as extremely complex in comparison. Personally, simply from the brain structure I would suggest that you're making a massive assumption that snakes can feel pleasure, let alone learning from positive reinforcement. I think the argument that snakes have emotions and are intelligent stems more from our brains then theirs. 

That said though, any neural pathway is able to be strengthened. I would have no problems believing that snakes learn to associate certain actions with food, such as approaching or opening the enclosure. But anything more than that would be stretching it in my book.


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## dickyknee (Jul 25, 2012)

Stick to training cats and dogs , snakes do not have any thing in their heads other than eat , crap , breed ....


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 25, 2012)

All I've ever been able to do with snakes is get them to eat when they have been put in their feeding tubs, and shy away from my hands when wearing sanitiser gel on them but even that is not 100% reliable. I see snakes as predators with a primitive mind, they have basic habits and thats it, they can't really be trained. Only taught some habits, and thats about all.

Gawd, could you think of the possibilities though if you could train them, I reckon the poor dears would be exploited to do mundane tricks and crap. Either that or they'd be like a shark and be a top predator then we would have no hope.


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## stimigex (Jul 25, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> All I've ever been able to do with snakes is get them to eat when they have been put in their feeding tubs
> .



They will eat where ever they are, they are oppertunistic feeders. if they were offered feed in their enclosure they would smash it with out delay!


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 25, 2012)

Of course they would Stim, but my main point is that I have pets, pets who I want to be able to take out of their cages/tanks without hassle who are not going to think they are getting fed every time I put my hands in there, and my girls are handled alot, so I feed them elsewhere, being fed in feed tubs is their self learned habit for them. Kind of cute though to see them waiting in the tubs with their noses stuck to the inside of the lid waiting for that rat or whatever to pop inside the tub for them. And yes Stim they all get fed in seperate tubs with their names on it (not that that matters) so no chance of contamination!


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## disintegratus (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't know...
One of mine's taught himself a pretty awesome trick. Pebbles the coastal has a tall enclosure with a top level which has a smallish hole in it to get to the bottom where the branches, cold end and water bowl is. Last night I heard water splashing, only to see him perched on the edge of the hole, crapping directly into the water bowl. That's pretty impressive!

Alf bites on command (by "command" I mean anytime anyone anywhere in the world does anything)

I don't think they can be trained. I think the best we can hope for is that they learn to associate their owners with "not potential death and/or snack", which most of them (scrubbies not included) seem to have managed quite well


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## stimigex (Jul 25, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> Of course they would Stim, but my main point is that I have pets, pets who I want to be able to take out of their cages/tanks without hassle who are not going to think they are getting fed every time I put my hands in there, and my girls are handled alot, so I feed them elsewhere, being fed in feed tubs is their self learned habit for them. Kind of cute though to see them waiting in the tubs with their noses stuck to the inside of the lid waiting for that rat or whatever to pop inside the tub for them. And yes Stim they all get fed in seperate tubs with their names on it (not that that matters) so no chance of contamination!



The old contamination issue is a real sore point i see, I wont argue with you, its not worth it
Because when you add new snake into a room with existing snakes there is NO quarantine.

On the ability to handle a snake from its enclosure with out being tagged, we do it all the time and never get tagged, We feed ALL snakes in their enclosures! Have done so for decades.

Snakes are very simple and easy to understand, If it smells like feed they bite, constrict and eat it if doesnt they couldnt give a rat ring, new keepers have been trying to convince them selves for ages that feeding snakes in seperate tubs trains the snake not to bite. The old MYTH does the rounds every year.


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## rvcasa (Jul 26, 2012)

+1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mo Deville (Jul 26, 2012)

snakes have to be probably one of the most boring animals to keep IMO, the only things that makes them fun to keep is, colour/patterns, them being snappy and the venom factor, otherwise their pretty much display animals.


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## carterd (Jul 26, 2012)

Positive reinforcement? Its more like setting patterns. Animals behave according to instinct.
All my Snakes are toilet trained, because i reinforced, that i would take them outside of there enclosure to do there business.
I wouldn't call it training, just commitment, knowing Animals don't like to crap where they sleep.


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## moussaka (Jul 26, 2012)

Konjira said:


> I was having this discussion with my partner the other night. I have a lot of experience training other animals like dogs, cats and birds using positive reinforcement, but I was wondering if there was such a thing for snakes? Generally I use treats and physical praise for other animals, however I can't imagine that a snake would react the same way. I mean, you can't exactly give them treats for good behaviour.
> 
> Maybe particular ways of petting/stroking your snake that it evidently enjoys? Does your snake react positively to certain actions? Do you believe a snake can truly be trained?



No.


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## -Peter (Jul 26, 2012)

cant hurt, negative reinforcement works detrimentally so have a go.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2012)

carterd said:


> Positive reinforcement? Its more like setting patterns. Animals behave according to instinct.
> All my Snakes are toilet trained, because i reinforced, that i would take them outside of there enclosure to do there business.
> I wouldn't call it training, just commitment, knowing Animals don't like to crap where they sleep.



The posts in this thread are pretty much all on the money, except this one. Your snakes aren't "toilet trained"... they don't think "Oh, I'm out of my cage so it's a good opportunity not to crap in my own space..." You credit them with thought processes they just don't have. What makes snakes crap when you take them out of their enclosures, and especially if they are on a lawn or similar, is the stress of stimulation and movement, not a rational thought process. Pythons in particular are lazy creatures, they don't move much if they don't have to. One of the drawbacks of captive life is that it reduces the potential for activity even more, so the removal from their enclosure is more of a stressor than a pleasure for them, regardless of what the anthropomorphs would like to think.

As far as not soiling their sleeping space - you only have to go into a ceiling space or cave or wherever a snake has been resident for a while to debunk that theory. I've seen ceiling spaces where snake poo is just about ankle deep in poo and shed skins, and the resident reptile has been happily curled up on its own waste. They have evidently been there for years, and definitely don't go elsewhere to take a dump. 

Jamie


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## disintegratus (Jul 26, 2012)

I'd have to agree with that ^
Mine could crap anywhere in their enclosures that they like, yet most of the time like to take a dump in whichever hide they're in at the time, invariably causing me to have to clean said hide, usually with great difficulty.
Except for Pebbles, the amazing, toilet-trained balancing, aiming pooper.


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## JM1982 (Jul 26, 2012)

Have you tried spanking?

...your *snake* I mean...

...UM WAIT, THE _*REPTILE*_!!!:shock:

...geez I think I almost got banned then


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## imported_Varanus (Jul 26, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> As far as not soiling their sleeping space - you only have to go into a ceiling space or cave or wherever a snake has been resident for a while to debunk that theory. I've seen ceiling spaces where snake poo is just about ankle deep in poo and shed skins, and the resident reptile has been happily curled up on its own waste. They have evidently been there for years, and definitely don't go elsewhere to take a dump.
> 
> Jamie



Nothing wrong with good hygeine practices and captive reptiles, but whenever I read those threads where people are panicking about how to properly sterilise a piece of wood for their charges I have to smile! 

Along similar lines, don't swim in water because fish like to crap in it!


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## Konjira (Jul 26, 2012)

Ahahaa! Spanking. Thanks for all your responses guys. I thought as much. But at least I have a much better understanding of my snake's thought process!

(My partner thought if you could train a goldfish then you could train a snake.)


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## JM1982 (Jul 26, 2012)

I think its more about training yourself rather than your snake.

-learning to read body language 
-hygiene 
-etc etc


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## imported_Varanus (Jul 26, 2012)

Konjira said:


> (My partner thought if you could train a goldfish then you could train a snake.)



If you can train a Goldfish, perhaps it's worth having a go at training a snake? (just kidding!)


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2012)

Nine times out of 10, when you clean a cage, especially with Carpets, they'll crap in it within the hour just to mark it as their own space again (this is instinctive, not a conscious thought about territory marking btw).

J


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## Darlyn (Jul 26, 2012)

I'v trained mine to wag his tail. : )


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 26, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Nine times out of 10, when you clean a cage, especially with Carpets, they'll crap in it within the hour just to mark it as their own space again (this is instinctive, not a conscious thought about territory marking btw).
> 
> J


I will second this, I was forever changing or replacing spots in their substrate when they made a mess. I read somewhere about the territory thing. I knew of it from other animals but also knew snakes are snakes, not other animals, you can teach them habits that they become indifferent to but you can't really teach them anything you want, they will still remain the predators they are and act according to their nature as well as their personalities, we can only observe and learn form them


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## imported_Varanus (Jul 26, 2012)

Darlyn said:


> I'v trained mine to wag his tail. : )


]


LOL; Pics or it didn't happen!


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## ghosts (Jul 26, 2012)

.............


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## carterd (Jul 26, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The posts in this thread are pretty much all on the money, except this one. Your snakes aren't "toilet trained"... they don't think "Oh, I'm out of my cage so it's a good opportunity not to crap in my own space..." You credit them with thought processes they just don't have. What makes snakes crap when you take them out of their enclosures, and especially if they are on a lawn or similar, is the stress of stimulation and movement, not a rational thought process. Pythons in particular are lazy creatures, they don't move much if they don't have to. One of the drawbacks of captive life is that it reduces the potential for activity even more, so the removal from their enclosure is more of a stressor than a pleasure for them, regardless of what the anthropomorphs would like to think.
> 
> As far as not soiling their sleeping space - you only have to go into a ceiling space or cave or wherever a snake has been resident for a while to debunk that theory. I've seen ceiling spaces where snake poo is just about ankle deep in poo and shed skins, and the resident reptile has been happily curled up on its own waste. They have evidently been there for years, and definitely don't go elsewhere to take a dump.
> 
> Jamie



You are incorrect Jamie. Read the post again....I said i wouldn't call it training.
Snakes prefer not to sleep on there waste, get your facts right.
If you keep a record of when they Feed, Defecate, Slough etc, you soon see there patterns and cycles.
Dose your inside Dog hang on to it's self, before it's let out to defecate? Yes, because of patterns set, not toilet training. If you don't want happens???
Well it's the same with my snakes, they don't Crap in their enclosures, I'm not making this up.
Remember you are still the student.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 26, 2012)

carterd, you'd be surprised what the snakes put up with especially since they are so lazy and indifferent. I've had my animals sleep in their own crap even piss in their water (when I've found them in the morning to clean out cages), frankly snakes just don't care, unless you have food for them or if its mating season. I'd have to say that if they are crapping when you are taking them out and holding them, they could be objecting to you. I have a couple of my animals who did the latter because they are doing what they do in the wild, defacating on their predator so they can get away. When this happened to me, it was a particular type of perfume I was using and so stopped using it and the animals changed their habit and they are fine now. I'm not rousing on you for this, but this is something you could think about also.


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## JM1982 (Jul 26, 2012)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> carterd, you'd be surprised what the snakes put up with especially since they are so lazy and indifferent. I've had my animals sleep in their own crap even piss in their water (when I've found them in the morning to clean out cages), frankly snakes just don't care, unless you have food for them or if its mating season. I'd have to say that if they are crapping when you are taking them out and holding them, they could be objecting to you. I have a couple of my animals who did the latter because they are doing what they do in the wild, defacating on their predator so they can get away. When this happened to me, it was a particular type of perfume I was using and so stopped using it and the animals changed their habit and they are fine now. I'm not rousing on you for this, but this is something you could think about also.



My Darwin tried defecating to stop being handled for a period when he was young. 
I put up with it to show it wouldnt get him 'back to the tank'. (he would calm after a short time)

-He soon stopped and was a good handler after some time.


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## sherlock (Jul 29, 2012)

Emotions? I reckon they do have them. But it would be hard to display any emotion when you can’t alter your face except to yawn. My fellow definitely has likes and dislikes. 
I do recall a news item where black headed python was stolen and the police recovered him, the snake was definitely agitated, (by being stolen), so the coppers left the poor snake in a dark room to recover. Full marks to the police here. But I would call that snakes behavior as angry.
In my own case my young black headed python, loves to explore, the living room is all safe except for the heater, so he does have the run of it while we watch over him. One time he got interested in the heater, I made a big show, saying “NO” loudly and pulling him away. Bit of a performance from me telling him off.
The interesting thing is he has so far avoided the heater from then on, but he roams about everywhere else.
Also when he is exploring and he sees something new, he definitely stops and studies it for about 10 to 15 seconds, obviously thinking about it.
So I reckon snakes are more intelligent than just eating, sleeping and ****ting machines. How intelligent? I don’t know, but I reckon you could train them somehow. I’m interested in any results you get.


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## thomasssss (Jul 29, 2012)

sherlock said:


> One time he got interested in the heater, I made a big show, saying “NO” loudly and pulling him away. Bit of a performance from me telling him off..


you do realise snakes cant hear a thing


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## dickyknee (Jul 29, 2012)

sherlock said:


> Emotions? I reckon they do have them. But it would be hard to display any emotion when you can’t alter your face except to yawn. My fellow definitely has likes and dislikes.
> I do recall a news item where black headed python was stolen and the police recovered him, the snake was definitely agitated, (by being stolen), so the coppers left the poor snake in a dark room to recover. Full marks to the police here. But I would call that snakes behavior as angry.
> In my own case my young black headed python, loves to explore, the living room is all safe except for the heater, so he does have the run of it while we watch over him. One time he got interested in the heater, I made a big show, saying “NO” loudly and pulling him away. Bit of a performance from me telling him off.
> The interesting thing is he has so far avoided the heater from then on, but he roams about everywhere else.
> ...



You cant seriously think your yelling "NO" has taught your snake to not go near the heater ??


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## JrFear (Jul 29, 2012)

u can train monitors! =]


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2012)

all my snakes are well trained lol


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## stimigex (Jul 29, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> You cant seriously think your yelling "NO" has taught your snake to not go near the heater ??



Come on Dicky you know how these new age herpers are so much more in touch with their inner reptile than us old timers :lol:


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## andynic07 (Jul 29, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> you do realise snakes cant hear a thing


Could it be possible that instead of hearing the "NO" the snake felt the vibrations of the sound wave and didn't like it?


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## thomasssss (Jul 29, 2012)

andynic07 said:


> Could it be possible that instead of hearing the "NO" the snake felt the vibrations of the sound wave and didn't like it?


its possible dont really know enough about that side of snakes to say for certain but i definitely don't think that it taught her not to go near the heater , you have to tell a dog not to do something more than once before it learns in most cases and they can actually be trained , id say its just a coincidence that it hasn't gone back to the heater


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## dickyknee (Jul 29, 2012)

stimigex said:


> Come on Dicky you know how these new age herpers are so much more in touch with their inner reptile than us old timers :lol:



Old ??  

Yeah there does seem to be a whole new generation of crack pots .. I mean herpers who think that snakes are highly intelligent and able to think beyond eating , mating and pooping ...


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## stimigex (Jul 29, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> Old ??



Figuratively speaking of course


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## euphorion (Jul 29, 2012)

carterd said:


> You are incorrect Jamie. Read the post again....I said i wouldn't call it training.
> Snakes prefer not to sleep on there waste, get your facts right.
> If you keep a record of when they Feed, Defecate, Slough etc, you soon see there patterns and cycles.
> Dose your inside Dog hang on to it's self, before it's let out to defecate? Yes, because of patterns set, not toilet training. If you don't want happens???
> ...



How are his facts wrong? Snakes don't give a hoot if they lay in their own waste. 

And what on earth are you on about in regards to toilet training dogs? Of course it's toilet training. It's what bitches do with their puppies from the get go; TOILET TRAINING. Yes, they hold on because they know they are not supposed to soil their living space and so they toilet where they have been taught to toilet; outside! But further to that point, why are you using dogs as an example in a discussion that relates exclusively to training reptiles? Oh my goodness, I'm too frustrated by your grammar and spelling to follow this thought process any further. 

But to answer OP, no. Enough said.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 29, 2012)

carterd said:


> You are incorrect Jamie. Read the post again....I said i wouldn't call it training.
> Snakes prefer not to sleep on there waste, get your facts right.
> If you keep a record of when they Feed, Defecate, Slough etc, you soon see there patterns and cycles.
> Dose your inside Dog hang on to it's self, before it's let out to defecate? Yes, because of patterns set, not toilet training. If you don't want happens???
> ...



Are you sure you spelled you name on APS correctly - maybe you meant "Carturd" lol!!!

Perhaps you are a new-age keeper, but can you tell me how many decades you've been keeping snakes for dude? And what background you have in reptile biology, beyond your "record keeping...?" I'm sure I can tell you quite a bit more about snakes than you can tell me...

Jamie


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## sherlock (Jul 29, 2012)

You cant seriously think your yelling "NO" has taught your snake to not go near the heater ?? stimigex
No I don't. But it was an interesting observation. But a true one, so far. No animal would be able to understand language, but they do understand something in front of them that comes with food sometimes might be an important thing to them. Don't you think?
Snakes didn't get to be one of the most successful carnivores on this planet by being stupid.


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## notechistiger (Jul 29, 2012)

No animal can understand language? My lorikeet understands me when I say "off you get" (meaning you're not allowed there so get off it). My dog understands his name. He understands "come here" to mean he better get over there fast! Most animals don't understand words that haven't been taught to them, but it's very closed minded to say no animal can understand anything at all.

But I think you missed the point. You realise snakes have no ear holes and thus can't hear you when you scream "no!" at it, right?

As for your other point, considering any of my snakes would just as happily munch on my hand if I tasted like food as they would the real thing- no I don't think for a second that my snakes have a special tie to me because I bring them food. To them I'm a warm tree that moves and bothers them every now and again. Snakes need far, far less people anthropomorphizing them. They really, really won't care if their owners die tomorrow.


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## kawasakirider (Jul 30, 2012)

Pfft. You old school snake keepers just _think_ that snakes can't be trained because you've never tried.

If I say "wanna go in the car?" mine get excited. I can open their cage and they'll slither out the door, down the steps and into the car. They love going for drives.

I try to take them for drives at least once every few days, they love stretching across the dash and poking their heads out the windows. They are also fairly partial to the odd trip into woolworths.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 30, 2012)

sherlock said:


> You cant seriously think your yelling "NO" has taught your snake to not go near the heater ?? stimigex
> No I don't. But it was an interesting observation. But a true one, so far. No animal would be able to understand language, but they do understand something in front of them that comes with food sometimes might be an important thing to them. Don't you think?
> Snakes didn't get to be one of the most successful carnivores on this planet by being stupid.



Ummm... the last sentence here is interesting... "most successful carnivores on the planet..."? Evolutionary development has made them what they are, not intelligent strategy. 

Jamie


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## sherlock (Jul 30, 2012)

No I don't. There was a bit more said and done than just a 'no' , and no they can't hear. But the point is that he doesn't go near the heater. He shows no interest, but he is intensely curious about everything else. Not a proof intelligence or anything, just an interesting anecdote, which I thought you had the intelligence to understand.


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## thomasssss (Jul 30, 2012)

sherlock said:


> . There was a bit more said and done than just a 'no'


did you smack him on the nose as well and tell him his a bad dog .. i mean snake


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## kaoss (Jul 30, 2012)

You guys sound like you have some really timid snakes, My little stimsons gets curious when any one comes near his enclosure, instead of hiding and shying away... if I open the top of his enclosure, he gets all happy, almost jumping out of his enclosure into my arms! He loves getting into my jacket where its all warm and cosy, or he curls up around my pony-tail and sits on top of my head watching TV with me.

He's a cuddly one, maybe I just got lucky....but I never get the feeling that he doesn't like being handled.

If other people handle him, he comes STRAIGHT back to me and holds on and snuggles


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## euphorion (Jul 30, 2012)

I do hope this thread doesn't get closed. It's just so darn entertaining!

EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY - google this, now
REPTILIAN PHYSIOLOGY - learn about it, learn A LOT about it, and then learn some more about it
FUNCTIONAL CAPABILITIES - recognise and understand them

omgoodness. reptiles are NOT DOGS. 

Koass - a few of mine are like that too, we're very lucky to have snuggly ones i say!


Ugh, i just can't bear how silly this argument it. You 'making a show of telling your snake "no"' has nothing to do with your snake not going near the heating, perhaps it could be something as simple as the heater having a bad smell or vibrating at a frequency what you can't detect that put your snake off. I just can't comprehend how you can think you trained him not to go near it, i just can't.

But enough, i don't want to get another infraction for feuding on the forum again, although goodness me i know i could stick to this like a dog on a bone.


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## notechistiger (Jul 30, 2012)

sherlock said:


> which I thought you had the intelligence to understand.



The anecdote was easy to understand. The fact you said you shouted at an animal that can't hear is what raised eyebrows. What is so hard about that to understand?


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## sherlock (Jul 30, 2012)

Had no idea that my comments would be so wildly misread.
Pythoinfinite - You are right, evolutionary development has enabled them to be this successful, and what you say is correct, but there is an intelligence of a sort, that is not just a “mindless eating, sleeping, machine.” I do feel sorry for people who feel that way about their pets.
Snakes are one of the most successful, wide spread and numerous of animals. The same basic design has been around for millions of years. Snakes are everywhere on every continent except Antarctica and Ireland. And I don’t blame them for not living in those places.​ I used to think that snakes were mindless eating sleeping machines, but I could observe that my snakes’ behavior shows the opposite. Snakes have personalities (as most snake owners would agree), they have likes and dislikes, they recognize and like (or dislike) their owners. They must surely experience pleasure when basking in the sun, or finding and killing their prey.
Also that line “.."most successful carnivores on the planet..."? is a paraphrase from a David Attenborough documentary about snakes.
And if microorganisms have been found to have an intelligence and birds are being studied at Oxford University for their tool handling and tool making abilities, why can't it be possible to train or condition a snake somehow?​ I find it interesting and humorous how just stating an opinion can really upset some people, as my comment seems to have done.​ I’m looking forward to the responses to this post.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 30, 2012)

sherlock said:


> Snakes are one of the most successful, wide spread and numerous of animals. The same basic design has been around for millions of years. Snakes are everywhere on every continent except Antarctica and Ireland. And I don’t blame them for not living in those places.​ ​




The same could be said for bacteria except you would need to replace millions with billions and they also thrive in Antartica and Ireland, though it doesn't by default make them intelligent with human like emotions.​


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## Becceles (Jul 30, 2012)

sherlock said:


> Snakes are everywhere on every continent except Antarctica and Ireland.​




...and New Zealand... not to mention that they were introduced to many of the smaller islands too.​


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## sherlock (Jul 30, 2012)

Hi euphorion - really enjoyed your post, thank you. I never laughed so hard.
I never said it was proof f anything, it was an interesting observation of behavior. You may be right, it might be bad smell or something. Though I wonder about that, he enjoyed being in a spicy pizza box. It was cute how he poked his head out of one of the holes.
Looking forward to your next post.


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## hnn17 (Jul 30, 2012)

sherlock did you eliminate all other possible reasons that could explain your snake's behaviour ? or just jump to the conclusion the cause was you yelling no at it ?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 31, 2012)

sherlock said:


> Hi euphorion - really enjoyed your post, thank you. I never laughed so hard.
> I never said it was proof f anything, it was an interesting observation of behavior. You may be right, it might be bad smell or something. Though I wonder about that, he enjoyed being in a spicy pizza box. It was cute how he poked his head out of one of the holes.
> Looking forward to your next post.



I suspect that like many who anthropomorphise their reptiles, the neediness demonstrated by sherlock is greater than that of her reptile... I just hate it when grown up (?) human beings turn their grand, beautiful "wild" creatures into simpering, cuddly (?!), cooperative "colleagues" - it's so degrading for these beautiful animals...

Jamie


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## euphorion (Jul 31, 2012)

Your sarcasm is positively divine. Pray tell, why did you find it so amusing? Or did you simply not understand it? Oh wait! Feuding again. Drat. 



sherlock said:


> Hi euphorion - really enjoyed your post, thank you. I never laughed so hard.
> I never said it was proof f anything, it was an interesting observation of behavior. You may be right, it might be bad smell or something. Though I wonder about that, he enjoyed being in a spicy pizza box. It was cute how he poked his head out of one of the holes.
> Looking forward to your next post.


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## FAY (Jul 31, 2012)

hehehehe I couldn't help but have a giggle...




dickyknee said:


> You cant seriously think your yelling "NO" has taught your snake to not go near the heater ??


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 31, 2012)

Two of my snakes are into line drumming - they march up & down the back lawn practising their paradiddles with their bifurcated tongues... When the scrubbies get big enough and have the lung capacity for bagpipes ... they just can't wait to get started, but I haven't yet decided how I'll get their kilts to stay on...

Jamie


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## imported_Varanus (Jul 31, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> but I haven't yet decided how I'll get their kilts to stay on...
> 
> Jamie



C'mon, Jamie, every sensible Scrubbie keeper knows they don't need kilts as they have nothing to cover up!

I wish people would do their homework before buying a species they have no clue about!!


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## Tsubakai (Jul 31, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Two of my snakes are into line drumming - they march up & down the back lawn practising their paradiddles with their bifurcated tongues... When the scrubbies get big enough and have the lung capacity for bagpipes ... they just can't wait to get started, but I haven't yet decided how I'll get their kilts to stay on...
> 
> Jamie



Just make a longer kilt and hoist it up around their shoulders. That'll stop it falling off and causing embarrassment at an inopportune time.


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## Konjira (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks for all your great responses guys!

I have a much better understanding of my snake's thought processes now and am trying vigilantly to focus more on paying attention to what his body language is showing my rather than trying to assume what he's "thinking" (or lack thereof). 

It inspired me to write up an opinion piece on my blog over at Where is Ramón?: On The Relative Intelligence of Snakes* (Ramón is Dumb). It was great to read about everyone's opinions and form my own.

Probably best to let this thread die, if we're up to the point of talking about snake kilts.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Jul 31, 2012)

sherlock said:


> Snakes didn't get to be one of the most successful carnivores on this planet by being stupid.


I agree, this is why I will refer to them as Predators, not just as pets. Sure I guess there are intelligent animals, and others with personalities, but I still don't think they could be trained, only given time to get used to their keepers and thats it


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## Dreaper (Jul 31, 2012)

my diamond will come to me if i put my hand out, if in the enclosure or being held by someone else. think its more smell then anything tho....


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## sherlock (Jul 31, 2012)

FAY said:


> hehehehe I couldn't help but have a giggle...


saying 'no' was for my benefit, it was accompanied by a few expletives that I could not repeat on this forum.
It sure caused a stir.


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## thomasssss (Jul 31, 2012)

could i get a pm about how you trained him not to go near the heater sherlock if you dont want to say it here ? im kinda interested , might try to train mine to thaw out its own rats and feed itself


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## Tahra (Jul 31, 2012)

My spotted is going on two years old. First snake I've owned. Basically I've gone from the moments she crept out of the bag crapping myself not knowing what to do with her, to her approaching my face (probably related to my warm breath) and giving me 'kisses' when I make lips at her. She never does this unless I puck my lips. Of course though she's not actually giving me a kiss, more like repetitively head butting my lips lol. Anyway the other night she was pretty active and was waiting for me to let her out of her cage just staring at me through the glass begging to come out. So I slid the glass door open and sat on my bed and watched her. She instantly slid out and on to my bed and found her way to my lap and curled up in my hands content. Now she never does this. Ever! The closest she's been to affectionate with me is sleeping in my pockets. So I guess I was really shocked when she did this and she even forced herself between my hand and my iPhone to get my attention. Now I know she wasn't cold or hungry though. She's been fed two-three days prior and I just got her a new heat mat and bedding so she was extra toasty in there, not even cold to the touch!. So I don't know what to think really.


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## longqi (Aug 1, 2012)

What an amusing thread
Now let me prove that the vast majority of responses in this thread are incorrect

Of course snakes can be trained
Anyone who has the slightest doubt of that has never had a 'pet' snake
*Anyone who has had a 'pet' snake that didnt bite, had a snake that had learned to trust humans*
*Therefore that snake had been 'trained' and had responded to the training
*
Yes snakes do NOT have human emotions to any measurable extent using the parameters we use now
Yet some snakes have shown that our understanding and methodology is flawed
Because we are mammals we insist on using mammalian testing on reptiles
As pointed out previously reptiles do not have the mammalian part of the brain that gives some mammals emotions
So using those tests is flawed from the outset

Aussies have kept snakes as pets for only a few years
So they can still be classified as wild animals in Aus in most cases with a few notable exceptions such as most of the snakes used by demonstrators and at schools and birthday parties etc etc etc which most definitely have been trained and have responded to that training

Open your minds and eyes and visit South America Africa and Asia
See the 'pet' snakes there that have been incorporated into family life for many generations and see if you change your minds

There are very few breeders who breed only for temperament 
Colour is the paramount reason for breeding
If cats and dogs had originally only been bred for colour most breeds would still rip your face off

If and when temperament breeding becomes the norm we will see enormous changes in both our understanding and knowledge


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 1, 2012)

"Of course snakes can be trained
Anyone who has the slightest doubt of that has never had a 'pet' snake
Anyone who has had a 'pet' snake that didnt bite, had a snake that had learned to trust humans
Therefore that snake had been 'trained' and had responded to the training"

I encounter many pythons each year up here on the mid-north coast, on the roads, around the house, in my sheds, around the aviaries, in chookyards etc, and I can honestly say that 95% of those that I need to handle to ensure their safety, are not interested in biting. Is that training? No - it's an inherently mellow nature, which is demonstrated by many wild, "untrained" snakes. 

You seem to be suggesting that snakes in Australia are more "uncouth" or "uncivilised" than those in other parts of the world because our ability to keep them is so recent. That's a ridiculous assertion. The household "pets" you refer to are simply animals with an innately mellow nature from the outset, those which don't behave in an acceptable way don't get a gurnsey as a housepet. Who could tolerate an aggressive/defensive 20ft Burm or Retic around the house? And don't tell me all snakes can be turned into housepets with the appropriate "snake-whispering" techniques - some snakes just don't like people, here or overseas.

The difference between here and "there" that you refer to has much more to do with the attitudes of keepers here and elsewhere than it does with the behaviour of the snakes in different countries. Attitudes to reptiles, especially snakes, and the way they are handled in different countries, is strongly influenced by human culture. I wouldn't be too keen to champion the warm, fuzzy relationships between snakes & humans in places like Asia and Africa, where they become dinner or are skinned alive and have their gall-bladders ripped out far more often than they become welcome guests around the home. How do you think the snakey housepets feel about that?

You will find that exactly the same things are happening in homes in Australia as elsewhere, it's just been a more recent development in Oz, but it is not limited because our snakes are less civilised.

As for demonstrating animals of course snakes, like anything, can be habituated ("trained" if you like), but it is only those which show good attitude to begin with that get that opportunity. For a snake, biting humans has to be either a response to fear, or a last resort. Physical engagement, either aggressively or defensively, carries significant risk of escalation and injury or even death - many snakes INSTINCTIVELY prefer the path of least resistance, it's the safest option.

I agree with you that line-breeding for temperament is an interesting possibility - I spent time with Dave Barker in Texas in 1995, and he was already working towards temperament-related pairings.

Jamie


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## Mo Deville (Aug 1, 2012)

well i hope people don't try to get their Berm or retic or black mamba to babysit their children because they have been "trained" to not eat or bite children or the hand that feeds them. :?


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## longqi (Aug 1, 2012)

Python
I am not suggesting our snakes are more uncouth etc
I am suggesting our attitudes towards them possibly are in many ways

Completely agree that most wild snakes are gentle if not handled near the head
TV shows have a lot to answer for in that regard as most of the handlers/catchers grab snakes exactly the way any predator would just to get good footage of 'nasty/dangerous' snakes
Same snake gently supported along the body wont provide the danger footage required to get tv ratings

Absolutely agree that Aussie snakes have a far greater chance of living long lives than those overseas in any other country

But on the other side you have things that remain too far out of the ordinary to be easily explained
A simple example is the Temple Viper
A venomous snake with a pretty bad reputation
But at the temple it was named for there are thousands of these that are on open display
If you go before or after the crowds you can walk around with a priest and if you are game pick up gently as many as you like without fear of being bitten
Try the same thing away from the temple and they are extremely defensive snakes

In Northern Thailand many temples and villages have both vens and non vens living without drama among the people
Those snakes have most definitely been trained/taught that humans are neither prey or of danger to the snakes so they cohabit the same buildings quite successfully

Regarding training snakes I have never seen a young snake that cannot be trained
Ive see a few adult snakes that would appear to be untrainable though

Mo
There have been, and still are some huge pythons who live with families including young children without drama


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 1, 2012)

There is a difference between conditioning an animal and training it in my opinion (although it is a very small distinction that in some practices would be irrelevant). Snakes can be conditioned to certain stimuli but cannot be trained based on current knowledge, maybe in the future a greater insight will reveal something to make it a possibility, but until then. I believe Varanid and Crocodilian species are much more likely to breach the gap and may possibly be able to reside in the training side of things (which is my current view that certain species can undergo training).

Just because something happened doesn't mean it was caused by a stimulus we observed, a lot of the anthropomorphized stories in this thread reminds me of the "tiger stick", I can carry with me a stick and it will keep tigers away from me, want proof? can you see a tiger near me?

On the point of breeding temperament, I have stated previously that personality is a heritable trait that is well documented in primary literature. It has started in Australia already. Personality influences the human-animal interactions but personality itself is easily anthropomorphized leading to further 'confusion' of animal behaviour.


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## longqi (Aug 1, 2012)

Having watched both varanids and various iguanas totally agree that they are trainable

It is interesting that we can 'train' a dog or cat or child not to bite etc and call that training
But when it comes to reptiles we find it difficult to use the same word even though the methods used are similar and the results exactly the same


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## sherlock (Aug 1, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> could i get a pm about how you trained him not to go near the heater sherlock if you dont want to say it here ? im kinda interested , might try to train mine to thaw out its own rats and feed itself


NoI did not train him. The sequence of events is - I would let himwander around while I watched him closely and always he ended upheading to the heater. Lot of spaces in it he could get into. AlwaysI would gently pick him up and point him elsewhere. One day I did notnotice he was almost in the heater. I panicked and none too gentlypicked him up, while I expressed some expletives (I won’t repeatthem here) with ‘no’ in there somewhere, and put him in his enclosure.
Couple of days later I noticed he was ignoring the heater, which was most unlike him.
Theonly immediate explanation, apart from smells, etc. was my roughhandling of him.
Thepoint of the anecdote was to highlight the fact that they can changetheir behavior in response to stimuli. Hence theoretically trainable.The originator of the thread got the point. Some others did not, andwent quite psychotic. You can go back in the thread and read them tosee what I mean.
I must admit I got sidetracked by the hilarity of the psychotic and venomous outbursts.
By the way, haven’t you noticed snakes have no arms or legs? They lost their arms (and legs) millions of years ago. I think they left themin a cave somewhere and forget where they were and god wouldn’tgive them new ones. So they had to make do. They have done very well too.
So training them to defrost their own rats via a automatic heatermicrowave arrangement is theoretically doable, but very difficult. And theoretically youcould train them somehow, to do it. Major drawback would be the fact that snakes are opportunistic feeders, and if you gave the the chance eat whenever they want, they would just get fat. Don’t you reckon?


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## imported_Varanus (Aug 1, 2012)

sherlock said:


> So training them to defrost their own rats via a automatic heatermicrowave arrangement is theoretically doable, but very difficult. And theoretically youcould train them somehow, to do it. Major drawback would be the fact that snakes are opportunistic feeders, and if you gave the the chance eat whenever they want, they would just get fat. Don’t you reckon?



And that's the leading cause of obesity in today's captive snakes, allowing the "willy nilly" access to microwaves!

I love APS!!


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## cement (Aug 1, 2012)

longqi said:


> Having watched both varanids and various iguanas totally agree that they are trainable
> 
> It is interesting that we can 'train' a dog or cat or child not to bite etc and call that training
> But when it comes to reptiles we find it difficult to use the same word even though the methods used are similar and the results exactly the same



Hey Longqi, I have respect for you for the work you do with wild snakes, but i have to ask...because you have stated that snakes can be trained.... exactly how is this done? In your eyes what is it that happens for you to say "yep...that is a trained snake"?.

Snakes and reptiles in general are a "new" pet here in Aus... If you use the growth of this 'hobby' as a benchmark. But there are guys out there who have been keeping a long time. Ask the most respected herpers/keepers this question about training snakes. I bet their answers are all the same and along the lines of Jamie's.

For someone to own one baby Bhp and get on a forum and express their perspective about snakes behaviour based on watching one small snake crawl around a loungeroom is quite ok in my book, thats what forums attract. But you have to keep it in perspective and also accept that there is a lot more to gaining experience then owning one or two placid pythons.

No offence to the newbies, but the love affair with a new pet snake is...... well , just that, however one sided.


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## longqi (Aug 2, 2012)

Cement
If you take the simplest example it is that most baby snakes bite
That is an instinctive reaction to contact with any predator
If that baby snake is handled gently it will soon stop biting when handled and will become a very gentle animal that is a joy to be close to
Therefore that snake has learned to trust its handler and has been 'trained'

But if that snake is kept as a breeder for example and is rarely handled it will never get over its fear and will retain a reputation as bitey or feisty or whatever, so in my opinion would be called an 'untrained' snake

How this is done successfully differs between handlers but in every case it involves the snake learning to trust its handler and not the handler trusting the snake


The best Aussie examples of 'trained' snakes were the vens the old timers used in live shows
Browns and Blacks mostly that were free handled on a daily basis with zero monkey business involved
Most of the old handlers never used hooks and just reached into a bag to lift out gently a big ven and proceed to 
blow their audience away
They will never be emulated in future because of insurance etc but those snakes most definitely fit the 'trained' category
whereas the ones used in Victoria that had been de-venomed would fit the 'untrained' category because they still wanted to strike

We take snakes to local schools here for the kids to learn to simply leave snakes alone as most deaths in Bali are from people trying to catch or kill a snake
Most of the kids are terrified when we arrive
2 hours later most of them have touched or supported a snake 
We couldnt do that if we didnt have 100% certainty that those snakes wouldnt strike regardless of the provocation
So I consider any one of the snakes we use to be trained as well as I know how

......
Some speculation about snake hearing abilities on here
Snakes are exceptionally good at feeling vibrations
All sound is composed of vibrations
I personally feel we have a lot to learn about their hearing ability which is most definitely different to ours but may be actually just as efficient as anyone who has seen tree snakes catching bats on a dark night must agree


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2012)

......
Some speculation about snake hearing abilities on here
Snakes are exceptionally good at feeling vibrations
All sound is composed of vibrations
I personally feel we have a lot to learn about their hearing ability which is most definitely different to ours but may be actually just as efficient as anyone who has seen tree snakes catching bats on a dark night must agree[/QUOTE]

i agree.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 2, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> ......
> Some speculation about snake hearing abilities on here
> Snakes are exceptionally good at feeling vibrations
> All sound is composed of vibrations
> I personally feel we have a lot to learn about their hearing ability which is most definitely different to ours but may be actually just as efficient as anyone who has seen tree snakes catching bats on a dark night must agree





Oh no... the "NO!" debate may not have gone away just yet ! Even if the snake sensed the vibes from the shouted "NO," it would still have to interpret the meaning, and that's a very long bow to draw. That the snake was once heading toward the damned heater, then lately has not headed in that direction means nothing. Anyone who has experience with reptiles (and I've noticed it particularly with turtles) will know that if you put them out on the lawn, they seem, for some reason, hell-bent on heading in one direction, regardless of how many times you turn them around - they will just turn around and go back in the direction they wanted in the first place. This, however, is not consistent. the next time you take them out, the direction may be different, but they will be just as persistent in their objective of heading in that (new) direction. The notion that a shouted "NO" or a bit of rough handling has been thought about, reasoned and interpreted as "Oh, I've been a naughty snake" or "Oh, my keeper has my best interests at heart so I better heed what he/she has to say because that heater is dangerous" is simply a nonsense. 

I certainly don't discount the possibility that airborne sounds are sensed in some way by snakes, even though they don't have external ear openings, but their ability to interpret what they sense has been way exaggerated by Sherlock. Neither am I diminishing their physiological sophistication as the fantastic creatures they are, but this debate has far more to do with the plain silly interpretations that people put on their behaviours when they take snakes out of their natural contexts and put them into the human environment.

Longqi, I suspect that we are singing from the same song book, but maybe just have different interpretations of the word "training..."  When I was a lad in Perth (several decades ago!) I was friends with the then Director of the Perth Zoo. He gave me a couple of Greek Tortoises which had been handed in to the zoo (the zoo had no use for them). These tortoises very quickly learned to come for treats when I banged a spoon on the base of a saucepan - strawberries, clover flowers and a few other favourites - so, even though they had the run of the yard, I could always muster them when I wanted to know where they were. (Sadly, they were stolen from my backyard several years later )

My feeling is that there is a huge variation among the various types of reptiles, in the way they absorb information. I agree that monitors are very canny in a number of ways, but I think we will find that any creature which is an active hunter develops more strategies to deal with the world than something like a python, which is an ambush predator, and needs to do little more than instinctively find a place that it's likely to have a rat run within range, and just lie & wait - sometimes every night for weeks until it's successful.

Jamie


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## imported_Varanus (Aug 2, 2012)

Most wild elapids I am involved with and occasionally rehab appear to me to exibit a degree of trust following initial capture, but I've often wondered wether this is something they've "learn't" through gentle handling or perhaps we've just been condition to expect explosive defensive/aggressive reactions from any "dangerous" animal, which just isn't the case (Scrubbies aside)? Case in point, a wild caught (and released) Highland Copperhead that initially fled the scene on approach, was freehandled after some gentle persuasion (within 15 mins of capture) and remaind in the area long after release (see bottom left) . In that last pic, you can see it's chosen a patch of sun to remain in and flattened itself as in basking. I'm sure many of you have had similar experiences.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 2, 2012)

Yep iV, same thing happens here with RBBs occasionally when I remove them from the yard and way from the bloody Jack Russells. I regard it as desensitisation rather than "training" though - it's all in a word I guess.

Beautiful creature btw!

J


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## longqi (Aug 2, 2012)

Jamie
I agree about that particular scenario with the snake and the heater
I also dont think any snake could interpret sound that way

I was only commenting about their deafness and the way we interpret it which may be inaccurate at this point in time
We have so much to learn about these guys

We often get injured snakes
After keeping them with minimal handling until they are well again we let them go
Surprising how often they turn to look at us before gliding away
Normally release big retics beside water
One actually tested the water then came right back to my feet and looked straight up at me without the slightest suggestion it was going to strike before returning to the water and gone forever

Im not suggesting this is training or anything else
But I think their thought processes may be a lot more complex than we give them credit for and they are possibly not just hunting eating sleeping machines


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## Ramsayi (Aug 2, 2012)

Perhaps a word more appropriate would be "conditioning" but on a very basic level?


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## longqi (Aug 2, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> Perhaps a word more appropriate would be "conditioning" but on a very basic level?



If a dog or cat bites we train it not to bite and say we taught it
But if we do exactly the same thing with a snake we can only call it conditioning??

While I agree that snakes cannot be taught as many things as a dog I believe they are capable of learning
If capable of learning they are able to be trained albeit at a more basic level that most mammals


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 2, 2012)

I agree absolutely longqi, that we really only touch the surface of what triggers behaviours in these magic creatures, I'm just wary (and a bit frustrated ) at the anthropomorphic interpretations some make of particular behaviours. I know I come across here as a big know-it-all, but as I get older I'm sure that what do know about them is far less than what we don't.
I guess I try and correct the record when stuff we DO know is misinterpreted or distorted by some individuals who NEED to have their snakes as their best mates...

I think it compromises the dignity of these grand animals...

Jamie


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## notechistiger (Aug 2, 2012)

I personally think there's a difference between teaching a dog that biting doesn't get it anything, and removing a threatening presence (or a feeling of hunger) so the snake doesn't feel the need to bite.

I don't train my snakes. A calm, gentle approach ensures they have no reason to be threatened in the first place.


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## ArgentinoAussie (Aug 2, 2012)

I don't think snake "training" exists, conditioning on the other hand is possible, to condition an animal to expect to be fed when it's light is switched off or to be handled at a certain time is possible. Snakes aren't stupid, granted they're no Einstein but small behavioral conditioning exercising for example only feeding at a certain time of the day/night can help your snake not expect a feeding session each time you open it's enclosure.


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## thomasssss (Aug 2, 2012)

ArgentinoAussie said:


> for example only feeding at a certain time of the day/night can help your snake not expect a feeding session each time you open it's enclosure.


i sort of believe this 2 but im still undecided , the only reason i think it may be possible is because when i feed my male woma i use a feed tub , hes the most placid little thing in his enclosure but once hes in the tub its a different story , he has begun to wiggle his tail and bob his head moments after i put him in his feed tub which in most cases with womas is because their excited about their feed , i have never seen him do this in his enclosure only in his feed tub and recently he has started doing it just about every time he goes in there , this kinda indicates to me that he remembers that when his in that tub , its feed time , i wouldn't call this training and i don't actually know for sure if he can remember its feed time but the tail wiggling sure does make it look like he knows whats coming 

how ever this is about as far as i think it goes , i dont think your ever going to train a snake like you can with other animals


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## cement (Aug 2, 2012)

Cheers Longqi, I thought that was what you would say, and good to have it written here for others to read. As with your releases I have seen things with mine in the sense that I have used different methods of release to observe different reactions. If I am not in a rush and its a nice day I will release by simply untying the bag and sitting away from it, letting the snake to make its own way out in its own time. More than once I have witnessed a particular action with DP's.
I also find that gentle handling of rbbs and other vens can keep them calm. The critical time is picking them up, once you have them and (at times avoided the bite) they can calm down and allow a certain amount of handling. (this can be shortlived or longer depending on the snake). But handled by a trainee or novice will result in a different reaction.
The word training I feel has many levels, for me , it means getting better at something ie football etc. With animals I prefer the word conditioned, but thats just me. It is open to interpretation.
When you handle as many wild snakes as we do, and don't get bitten, then I tend to think that it is handling ability and not conditioning. When many pythons that are bought as hatchies may be bitey at first but grow out of it, then I feel it is part handling conditioning and part the keeper getting better at reading and handling.

Is it fair to add that even the most well conditioned snakes (specimens that get exhibited daily and groped by crowds at zoos etc) do have their off days, where keeper empathy doesn't allow for handling on some particular days? And a different animal is used.


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## Darlyn (Aug 2, 2012)

Some very interesting input on this thread, thanks guys.


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## longqi (Aug 3, 2012)

cement said:


> Is it fair to add that even the most well conditioned snakes (specimens that get exhibited daily and groped by crowds at zoos etc) do have their off days, where keeper empathy doesn't allow for handling on some particular days? And a different animal is used.



This is one of the main reasons I believe they are not virtually mindless automatons
Every snake I used in demonstrations had slightly different likes and dislikes
I could tell exactly which one was not in the right 'mood' for groping just by their body language and chose the snakes to be handled each day by that language
[I had to use human descriptions because I know no other way to put it, so dont read too much into the phrasing]


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## FAY (Aug 3, 2012)

I would say that mine are 'conditioned' to a certain extent. If you want to clean them and handle them...do it in the day. Late in the afternoon, evening...don't dare put your hand too close..


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 3, 2012)

thomassssssssss )) the tail wiggling is characteristic of a few snake species including Death Adders and GTPs, especially juvies. It's called Caudal luring, and the wriggling tail is used to lure prey to check it out and get within reach of the jaws. It works beautifully with DAs because they are usually buried in litter, you can't see them, and a bird or lizard checks out the thing moving in the sticks & WHAM...

So the tail wriggling generally signifies hunger anyway, and captive snakes that are "conditioned" to a certain feeding regime react to the prospect of being fed by caudal luring...

Jamie


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## thomasssss (Aug 3, 2012)

i know its caudal luring in say adders but imo and the opinion of alot of other people (also says in doc rocks article on womas ) that in womas it is more of an excitement thing as the tail is nowhere near their head and they do it a fair bit once the foods actually in their mouth 

what i was more saying in that post is that it sort of indicates to me anyways that he may remember its feed time when hes in the tub , only because ive never seen (not to say he hasnt) him doing it in his enclosure and it begins moments after he is in the bare tub , like i said though i dont know for sure if he knows whats coming but the tail wiggle sort of indicates that he might , 

now im off to train my womas to defrost and warm their own rats it would make feed time alot easier


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 3, 2012)

You might need to put a bracket or some mechanism on the fridge so that they have something to push against when they're pulling the door open - they struggle a bit with smooth surfaces !

I'm sure the tail wiggling indicates a conditioned expectation of food...

Jamie


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## thomasssss (Aug 3, 2012)

yea im designing a system where they will be able to just slither up to the fridge and tap their head on a pedal at the bottom of the fridge , this will open a trap door inside the fridge dropping out a rat through an opening at the bottom , now ive just got to work out how to teach them to use the tap , i think they might be better at using just a quarter turn tap but i must say im well on the way to training them to fed themselves


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 3, 2012)

Excellent idea - a sort of vending machine system - good thinking there . 

J


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## thomasssss (Aug 3, 2012)

thats basically the idea , they seem to be having a little trouble with the taps though any ideas


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## Ramsayi (Aug 3, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> thats basically the idea , they seem to be having a little trouble with the taps though any ideas



Positive reinforcement is needed.Just sit them down and have a talk to them about your expectations.If they take on board what you tell them make sure every time they do the right thing praise them and maybe even give them a quick pat under the chin or maybe little mousy tasting treats might work also.


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## Focus (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm sorry if this is a little off topic, but there's a lot of talk about reptilian brains not being equivalent to mammalian brains hence why reptiles can't be trained. While I agree that pythons are not trainable, I was always under the impression that this was related to the size of the brain (small vs big), not the type of brain (reptiles vs mammals). I was under the impression that the larger monitors for example are quite trainable, at least in comparison to pythons, is this a misconception?


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## kybaryal (Aug 3, 2012)

You can now get those new anti bacterial taps that run on sensor, just get them to move under the sensor and WALLAH !!!


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2012)

snakes can remain calm and settled in the right environment but they cant be disciplined or trained as in routine. If any one would like to debate me on this your more then welcome lol


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## sherlock (Aug 3, 2012)

euphorion said:


> Your sarcasm is positively divine. Pray tell, why did you find it so amusing? Or did you simply not understand it? Oh wait! Feuding again. Drat.


So you don't see what was so funny in your post? wow!!



Pythoninfinite said:


> I suspect that like many who anthropomorphise their reptiles, the neediness demonstrated by sherlock is greater than that of her reptile... I just hate it when grown up (?) human beings turn their grand, beautiful "wild" creatures into simpering, cuddly (?!), cooperative "colleagues" - it's so degrading for these beautiful animals...
> 
> Jamie



With all due respect to your experience Jamie, how the hell did you get that from what I wrote?
Cuteness?- my fellow is still a baby, no adult BHP would fit through a pizza box hole. And 'cuteness' is a known attribute of any baby.

It seems that snakes can be trained and their intelligence is round about same as a mouse.
Here's a link on some research for anyone interested.
Corn Snake Intelligence Study



imported_Varanus said:


> Most wild elapids I am involved with and occasionally rehab appear to me to exibit a degree of trust following initial capture, but I've often wondered wether this is something they've "learn't" through gentle handling or perhaps we've just been condition to expect explosive defensive/aggressive reactions from any "dangerous" animal, which just isn't the case (Scrubbies aside)? Case in point, a wild caught (and released) Highland Copperhead that initially fled the scene on approach, was freehandled after some gentle persuasion (within 15 mins of capture) and remaind in the area long after release (see bottom left) . In that last pic, you can see it's chosen a patch of sun to remain in and flattened itself as in basking. I'm sure many of you have had similar experiences.



Thank you for this.This is my favourite post. Gentle handling of a wild, dangerous and deadly snake is possible as you have shown. You are very brave, skillful and /or knowledgeable. Probably all three.
From a 'Ben Crop' documentary about sea snakes I knew sea snakes could be handled like that, but I did not know that land snakes could be handled in a similar way. Awesome.
But I suppose this is NOT something anyone should "try at home?"


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## longqi (Aug 4, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> snakes can remain calm and settled in the right environment but they cant be disciplined or trained as in routine. If any one would like to debate me on this your more then welcome lol



We have an albino Burmese a little over 2 metres called Luna
If she is gently stroked on top of the neck she will lift her head and kiss the cheek of whoever stroked her
That is most definitely learned behaviour and she performs it faultlessly as hundreds of facebook photos show
If you watch Aga Cobra, Sif, or Hunny with their King Cobras you may change your mind as their cobras most definitely follow pretty regimented routines

In all those cases each snake is selected by instinct and you are correct about probably never disciplined

About free handling elapids
2 times each year Javanese snake catchers come to Bali with Cobras
Sad ending but every one of these cobras is wild caught in Sumatra and Java
Then travel through Java and down to Bali doing shows at local markets etc and I have no idea how they get away with some of the things they do
But one very important thing is they never try to hold or restrain the head 
After doing the tour here the cobras end up in the restaurants and they go catch more for the next trip
Before you attack them too hard please consider that most of the customers in those restaurants are not Indonesian but are Westerners


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 4, 2012)

Sherlock, did you read the article you posted? I can't find any reference comparing snakes intelligence to that of a mouse, all they say is previous methodology used was 'the maze' test which is used for rodents and that this test is flawed in it's inclusion to snake studies.

"The scientists then trained the snakes to learn and remember which hole led to shelter, by guiding them to the hole with their hands." This sentence screams human bias! Whilst I would have to get a valid password to access the full paper as mine has lapsed, I would still be cautious about using any results from this study if the above sentence has any truth.

One of the first things we had drilled into us in BSc was critically analyzing scientific publications. There is good science and bad science, just because something stands up to peer review doesn't always mean it doesn't contain certain flaws, sometimes BIG flaws.

I'm not trying to cut down any argument that snakes can be "trained" I believe it is possible, but I am yet to be convinced from a scientific stand point. I am willing to concede certain snake species have better cognitive abilities than others.


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## cement (Aug 4, 2012)

Are the cobra defanged?
Can you give me a link to the Luna Kiss Longqi? That is definatly something I would love to see.


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## sherlock (Aug 4, 2012)

crocodile_dan said:


> Sherlock, did you read the article you posted? I can't find any reference comparing snakes intelligence to that of a mouse, all they say is previous methodology used was 'the maze' test which is used for rodents and that this test is flawed in it's inclusion to snake studies.
> 
> "The scientists then trained the snakes to learn and remember which hole led to shelter, by guiding them to the hole with their hands." This sentence screams human bias! Whilst I would have to get a valid password to access the full paper as mine has lapsed, I would still be cautious about using any results from this study if the above sentence has any truth.
> 
> ...



I read it, not studied it in detail. The comparison to a mouse is from older research that he disagreed with. So I said "about the same." Exact comparisons were not done. 
The point I was making was snakes were trained, successfully. Not their exact intelligence level. That would, I think, require further research as you imply.
I would doubt that snakes are the 'Einsteins" of the animal kingdom, but my snakes behaviour prompted my interest in thinking about their IQ. It got me wondering how their senses being ssssoooo different to ours would impact on their behaviour and consequently our perception of their intelligence. It seems to me that snakes have an intelligence level of some kind. And I was curious if training is possible, how? Positive reinforcement didn't strike me as very workable
Whether my story has any validity to a truth of intelligence is obviously questionable, it was an interesting coincidence that prompted my interest in this.
Scientifically I have no proof. If you find any data, on the Web (or Deep Web) I would be interested.
The more I find out about snakes the more respect I have for them.
Another aspect of this data would be how to make agro snakes peaceable, like scrubbies. If they can be coaxed to be friendly and trustworthy and the best way to do it, without the risk of being bitten. Or the snake killing you in the process, a definite risk, so it seems as another thread has shown.I


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## crocodile_dan (Aug 5, 2012)

The only comparison made was that early research methodology used the same test for both rodents and snakes, it was not a comparison about how similar snakes are to rodents at completing said task. Again I haven't bothered to obtain a copy of the original paper, but I doubt they would have omitted a finding as significant from the article.

One of the issues I had with the article is I truly believe the study did not conclusively show any significant findings as there was a mentioned interaction between the observer and the study animals, creating a bias that discredits the paper.

As for your observations, they are exactly that personal observations without any control over variables. Personal observations are useful and they often instigate further study to gain a true understanding of cause and effect, but they alone don't hold up to criticism. You believe what you experienced so that is useful to you, perhaps you can use that in the future.


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## PythonLegs (Aug 5, 2012)

Ahhh,no...my sides were still hurting from snakelady96's scrubby handling tips... Then I found this! Heeeedehaahaa..oohhh...argh....defrosting the rats! In a microwave! Aaahhhargh.my brain...stop....


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## longqi (Aug 5, 2012)

cement said:


> Are the cobra defanged?
> Can you give me a link to the Luna Kiss Longqi? That is definatly something I would love to see.



With the showmen I mentioned the cobras are most definitely not defanged or milked prior to their shows
They will use 4 or 5 Kings and afterwards ask a member of the audience to pick any one for milking
In the best shows they only use 2 species of snakes
King Cobras for the experts and Boiga Dendrophila for learners
You couldnt do most of the things they do with Aussie elapids because Cobras can only strike forwards and down
whereas Aussie elapids strike in any direction
Ive been actively involved on stage with all of them at various times and have no idea how they get away with some of the things they do
Aga does shows with her hubby in Penang and is the best showman

If you look at facebook at [email protected] you will see many photos of Luna doing her stuff
I just got a video camera so might try to video it sometime
Its quite interesting to see


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## [email protected] (Aug 5, 2012)

you must love it up there longqi nice weather and all. great experience


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## Luvbuz (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm with carterd on this one - my BHP is toilet "trained" and I use the word "trained" very loosely. She has just developed the habit of doing her business on the grass when we take her out for a wander. She won't go on gravel, cement or mulch in the garden but only on the grass. We just started by taking her out about four to five days after she ate which is when she would have normally soiled her enclosure. After a few months she developed the habit of waiting till she was on the grass to go. I even tested this theory by leaving her in her enclosure for longer than normal and she didn't soil her cage, but as soon as she started out on the grass up went her tail and out popped her pooh and wee. So I'm pretty sure she has developed a "habit" of waiting until she's on the grass. So maybe we can develop "habits" for them rather than call it "training"... Just my two cents worth anyway!


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## sherlock (Aug 5, 2012)

PythonLegs said:


> Ahhh,no...my sides were still hurting from snakelady96's scrubby handling tips... Then I found this! Heeeedehaahaa..oohhh...argh....defrosting the rats! In a microwave! Aaahhhargh.my brain...stop....


Has your brain stopped yet? Sure sounds like it.
What happened to your rule General Rule 5? - you seem to be breaking it



crocodile_dan said:


> The only comparison made was that early research methodology used the same test for both rodents and snakes, it was not a comparison about how similar snakes are to rodents at completing said task. Again I haven't bothered to obtain a copy of the original paper, but I doubt they would have omitted a finding as significant from the article.
> 
> One of the issues I had with the article is I truly believe the study did not conclusively show any significant findings as there was a mentioned interaction between the observer and the study animals, creating a bias that discredits the paper.
> 
> As for your observations, they are exactly that personal observations without any control over variables. Personal observations are useful and they often instigate further study to gain a true understanding of cause and effect, but they alone don't hold up to criticism. You believe what you experienced so that is useful to you, perhaps you can use that in the future.



I agree, but I wasn't worrying about all that. Only the fact that the snakes were 'learning' the route to the shelter. Call it training or conditioning it does show that snake behaviour can be altered. 

As for your last paragraph, once again I agree, that is why I wrote previously - "Whether my story has any validity to a truth of intelligence is obviously questionable, it was an interesting coincidence that prompted my interest in this."

But also this quote from the article was interesting '".......Holtzman says. "But this shows they're not just dumb animals wandering around aimlessly."

Looks like we can only change a snakes habits or just condition them rather than train them.


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## cement (Aug 5, 2012)

longqi said:


> If you look at facebook at [email protected] you will see many photos of Luna doing her stuff
> I just got a video camera so might try to video it sometime
> Its quite interesting to see



It won't work with an email address... Tried googling for cobra shows but got nothing there either. If you have a video camera, wouldn't it be something worth getting on video asap, behaviour like that would be one in a million, I know if I had access to a snake like that i'd be getting video quick smart. 
I have seen blokes kiss fully hooded cobras on the back of the head, but that doesn't count as training or being trained, all that is, is a tradesmen knowing his tools and working within parameters. You know what I mean as you mentioned the known strike direction.
Do you know of any footage that I can readily access of these shows, or explain what they do in them?

Not these guys I hope [h=1]Отбор змей для snake show. Тайланд, Паттайа. 2011[/h]


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## longqi (Aug 6, 2012)

Try this link
Wahyu Hijau | Facebook

Hopefully that one will work
Although that display is closed we still have most of the snakes

From behind kissing a cobra isnt too hard even if it gets the heart racing a bit
Aga kisses Kings from the front every day and has never been bitten
Her and her hubbys show is in Penang Malaysia and is the best Ive ever seen
Will find links if I can because its well worth a visit


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 6, 2012)

Luvbuz said:


> I'm with carterd on this one - my BHP is toilet "trained" and I use the word "trained" very loosely. She has just developed the habit of doing her business on the grass when we take her out for a wander. She won't go on gravel, cement or mulch in the garden but only on the grass. We just started by taking her out about four to five days after she ate which is when she would have normally soiled her enclosure. After a few months she developed the habit of waiting till she was on the grass to go. I even tested this theory by leaving her in her enclosure for longer than normal and she didn't soil her cage, but as soon as she started out on the grass up went her tail and out popped her pooh and wee. So I'm pretty sure she has developed a "habit" of waiting until she's on the grass. So maybe we can develop "habits" for them rather than call it "training"... Just my two cents worth anyway!



You can take a horse to water... sigh... The reason your snake doesn't crap in its cage is that is is very much less active than it is when you take it outside. When you get it outside, I'm sure if you waited long enough it would crap on the path, on the lawn or anywhere it had to simply because you got it moving. People who smoke are a similar example - many of them can't crap in the morning till they've had their first smoke - it gets their systems moving. They don't consciously think "I've had my ciggie, so now I can go take a dump..." - it's because their systems are stimulated by a drug, just as the snake's system is stimulated by movement.

Just for your info, snakes are ectotherms, so they don't "normally" crap at any measurable time interval - their bowel movements are entirely dependent on external factors such as temperature and activity levels. Of course, if you left your animal in its enclosure for long enough it would pass its waste, without any sense of guilt or distress at having to do it in its cage.

Jamie


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## thepythonguy (Aug 6, 2012)

i taught my croc how to roll over when feeding


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## imported_Varanus (Aug 6, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> it would pass its waste, without any sense of guilt at having to do it in its cage.
> 
> Jamie



I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Jamie. We should ALL be concentrating our training efforts on making our snakes feel guilty as sin! Guilt's the way to go, it certainly works on me!!


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## cement (Aug 7, 2012)

longqi said:


> Try this link
> Wahyu Hijau | Facebook
> 
> Hopefully that one will work
> ...



Yeah mate I would like to see it. Even kissing them on the front of the head doesn't (to me) come across as learned snake behaviour though. Its just working with the animal around its nature. Horses can't kick sideways so if i approach a wild horse from the side I can't get kicked. Do you see what I mean?


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## SamNabz (Aug 8, 2012)

All I can say after reading this thread, is wow..


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## longqi (Aug 8, 2012)

cement said:


> Yeah mate I would like to see it. Even kissing them on the front of the head doesn't (to me) come across as learned snake behaviour though. Its just working with the animal around its nature. Horses can't kick sideways so if i approach a wild horse from the side I can't get kicked. Do you see what I mean?



I can partly understand
If a wild snake is approached head on and touched it will defend itself
That is a natural defence which would be called a major part of their nature
While a horse finds it physically impossible to kick sideways any snake can bite forwards
Kissing a cobra from behind is definitely 'working the snake around its nature' as they cannot strike effectively from that position
But
For those cobras to allow themselves to be touched by a mammal in a position where they can strike, but choose not to, may not be exactly learned behaviour, but what other category would you put it in??


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## Focus (Aug 8, 2012)

Focus said:


> I'm sorry if this is a little off topic, but there's a lot of talk about reptilian brains not being equivalent to mammalian brains hence why reptiles can't be trained. While I agree that pythons are not trainable, I was always under the impression that this was related to the size of the brain (small vs big), not the type of brain (reptiles vs mammals). I was under the impression that the larger monitors for example are quite trainable, at least in comparison to pythons, is this a misconception?



Bump, sorry, would anyone be able to elaborate on this?


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## cement (Aug 9, 2012)

longqi said:


> I can partly understand
> If a wild snake is approached head on and touched it will defend itself
> That is a natural defence which would be called a major part of their nature
> While a horse finds it physically impossible to kick sideways any snake can bite forwards
> ...



Yes, sure enough. Category wise,... hmm. maybe "distraction" ?
And my reasoning is that if you watch the handlers closely, they distract the snake before they touch its head. This is always done and definitely a part of the act. It quite obviously distracts the snakes focus, (to the point of the handler being able to see where the snake is looking). They approach from an angle which is out of sight to the snake.

A brave act to be sure, but as is the case with most extreme sports or stunts, there is method to the madness.
This is, I believe, working within the parameters of the snakes known natural abilities.


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## Nathan_T (Aug 9, 2012)

> _'Im sorry if this is a little off topic, but there's a lot of talk about reptilian brains not being equivalent to mammalian brains hence why reptiles can't be trained. While I agree that pythons are not trainable, I was always under the impression that this was related to the size of the brain (small vs big), not the type of brain (reptiles vs mammals). I was under the impression that the larger monitors for example are quite trainable, at least in comparison to pythons, is this a misconception?_





Focus said:


> Bump, sorry, would anyone be able to elaborate on this?



It's not quite so simple. There are several issues with reptillian brains that render them quite poor at learning. First off, you are correct in that it does depend highly on the species. That said, reptiles do share similar problems with their brain structures that would strongly inhibit learning:

- Raw size does matter, but a better measure is what is called Encephalization quotient: The ratio between the mass of the brain and what would be expected in an animal of that size. Reptiles, particularly snakes have extremely poor ratios- that is the mass of the brain is miniscule compared to other animals of similar size. This is not a particularly good measure of intelligence, but it is a rough correlation.
- Second is the lack of folds on the frontal cortex. It's extremely hard to find a good picture of a snake brain, but picture a human brain. See those wrinkles all over it? Snake brains are actually quite smooth. Those folds are actually extremely important in higher level functioning- basically it increases the surface area of the brain, which multiplies the processing power for any given amount of mass by a drastic amount.
- Animals have very similar brain structures in nature. The forebrain refers to the sections of the brain that deals with learning, consciousness, all that good stuff. In humans, this is massive in comparison to the rest of the brain, in cats and dogs the ratio is about 50/50, in snakes the ratio is opposite, the forebrain is dominated by the hindbrain, which regulates breathing, heartbeat and so on.

Edit- actually found a picture that works:
http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/class/psy301/pennebaker/images/BrainEvolution.jpg

The bit you're concerned about is labelled Cerebrum. I'm not entirely sure what mammal that is, but it would be very low order- in comparison to that picture a sheep's brain is highly advanced.


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## Focus (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks Nathan_T, that's really interesting.


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## cement (Aug 11, 2012)

Something else that I think might be worth mentioning here, is the handling of snakes as pets.
Empathy for others is an important life skill. This also goes with animals.
For new snake owners, it will take quite a while to "get" what your snake is doing and why. For long term keepers this is easy, as snakes are such basic creatures, when you learn to understand them you wonder why you found it so hard at first! 
If you constantly treat an animal or person in a way that they are not biologically evolved, then that person or animal will suffer. 
For example, if you had a bird, and bathed it twice a day, fed it chocolate and kept in on a harness and taught it to run fast... you as a keeper might think that that because you like this stuff that the bird would too. But in reality you are killing it with kindness.

This is why long term keepers don't tend to get there snakes out for a play, they prefer to leave them alone so they can live their life as a snake prefers. In sleepy peaceful solitude. Just because a certain snake has a placid nature, doesn't mean it is trained.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 11, 2012)

I wish I could "Like" the above post 1000 times ! Perfect cement!

Jamie


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## mrblack66 (Aug 22, 2012)

lizards are nearly as smart as dogs .... esp skinks and monitors

lizards are nearly as smart as dogs .... esp skinks and monitors

- - - Updated - - -



JrFear said:


> u can train monitors! =]


 
i reckon lizards are nearly as smart as dogs and can be trained and behave in many ways similar to dogs. especially skinks and monitors. snakes are more simple brained, but I bet there is more to them than we currently know...


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