# Mouse breeder problems?



## Bl69aze (Aug 3, 2018)

does anyone know what causes this? Starts off as running in circles and in a few days comes like this and then a day later they start rolling on the spot and die 

From what I know is it is an inner ear infection spread in the air but I don’t know how to stop it, gets to maybe 1/100

Video might be distressing to some viewers


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## Sdaji (Aug 3, 2018)

I have kept large colonies of feed rodents for quite a number of years.

I very rarely see it in mice. It's more common in rats.

I don't know about any specific risks, but healthier rodents kept in better conditions get it less.

Everyone says it's an ear infection thing, although other than everyone saying it I've never seen actual evidence about that being the cause. It makes sense and is probably true.

In my care, with rare exception, when it happens the victim immediately gets a free trip to Heaven, departing immediately.


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## cris (Aug 3, 2018)

Whatever 'spin' lol. It is pretty bad.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 3, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> I have kept large colonies of feed rodents for quite a number of years.
> 
> I very rarely see it in mice. It's more common in rats.
> 
> ...


I try to cull them when I see them, but some are very early, it’s hard to see, and with 30 tubs it’s hard to spend x time on them all.

It’s jnteresting you say it’s more common in rats for you, because I’ve not had it in my rats at all ;o

The mice get changed every 3rd day unless a bottle has leaked then changed immediately


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 3, 2018)

Never seen it in my mice and I have bred hundreds now.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 3, 2018)

I should have said it disappeared for a few years and came back, late last year.

But I last saw it when my uncle was breeding in his shed in 2013


Also they are quackenbush


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 3, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> I should have said it disappeared for a few years and came back, late last year.
> 
> But I last saw it when my uncle was breeding in his shed in 2013
> 
> ...


Yeah mine are Quackenbush too, I clean my tubs twice/week. Have never seen it before.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 3, 2018)

interesting o.o this room is cleaned every month almost to quarantine facility standards


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 3, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> interesting o.o this room is cleaned every month almost to quarantine facility standards


Only once/month??? How often are the individual tubs housing the mice cleaned?? If only once/month... it must reek something chronic by cleaning time...


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## Bl69aze (Aug 3, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Only once/month??? How often are the individual tubs housing the mice cleaned?? If only once/month... it must reek something chronic by cleaning time...


every monday wednesday friday, (unless water bottle leaked then it gets cleaned immediately) whcih involves tub change over, tub clean (disinfected+wash and put to dry) for the next tub change over


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Aug 3, 2018)

Be interesting to see if @Yellowtail has ever seen this in his stock before...


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## Sdaji (Aug 3, 2018)

Most supposedly Quackenbush mice in private hands aren't.

'Quarantine' doesn't mean 'clean' or 'sterile', it just means 'isolated'. You can have something absolutely filthy, covered in many diseases and never cleaned and in 100% quarantine. That's actually often the case with quarantined things, and in a way is the whole point of quarantine. It's not defined by cleanliness or sterility.


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## Yellowtail (Aug 4, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Be interesting to see if @Yellowtail has ever seen this in his stock before...


Never seen it in mine and I think I would have noticed, they are single strain Quackenbush inbred for over 5 years and I don't have any health problems with them, occasionally a female dies probably from birth complications and rarely I find a dead one with no apparent cause but this is less than one a month from up to 20 breeding trios plus sometimes hundreds in grow tubs. I have more unexplained deaths with my unknown pedigree lab rats but have not observed the running in circles syndrome.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 4, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> Never seen it in mine and I think I would have noticed, they are single strain Quackenbush inbred for over 5 years and I don't have any health problems with them, occasionally a female dies probably from birth complications and rarely I find a dead one with no apparent cause but this is less than one a month from up to 20 breeding trios plus sometimes hundreds in grow tubs. I have more unexplained deaths with my unknown pedigree lab rats but have not observed the running in circles syndrome.


Your mice don’t eat eachother if they need protein or something? Or sometimes a female (or multiple) will bite a male and it bleeds out


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## Yellowtail (Aug 4, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Your mice don’t eat eachother if they need protein or something? Or sometimes a female (or multiple) will bite a male and it bleeds out


I keep them on a high protein diet. They don't eat a dead adult they bury it if you leave it there which I find interesting.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 4, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> I keep them on a high protein diet. They don't eat a dead adult they bury it if you leave it there which I find interesting.


Sometimes I find these spinners “buried” I think they are dead untill they twitch a tiny bit and u move them and they freak out a bit.

Some of our females eat their babies and go straight for the brain, they get specialised rodent food but I guess giving birth takes a lot of energy


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## Buggster (Aug 4, 2018)

When I worked in mouse production at a zoo, they called it ‘spinners’. Neurological condition associated with excessive inbreeding (this is what I was told). They said they would remove and cull the affected mice and introduce a new bloodline which would fix things for a couple generations.

They start in very large circles (enough so you wouldn’t notice unless you’re looking) and progress over the next few days gradually running tighter circles. Then they’re at a point where they’re essentially chasing their tails. After than, they begin rolling before they eventually die (or are killed by the other mice as they are unable to move).


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## Yellowtail (Aug 5, 2018)

Interesting and I'm no geneticist but I was advised to keep the genetic line of Quackenbush pure and that in labs where they had them they always avoided outcrossing or mixing different strains. The breed was developed to be virtual clones so there was minimum variation with experiment results. I have done this for over 5 years and I get almost zero health issues and less unexplained deaths than is normal for cross bred mice.
One thing I have observed is the mothers are very good at raising the babies and I rarely loose any despite the huge litters. Some of my rat mothers are hopeless and just don't seem to be as organised so you loose a few.


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## Buggster (Aug 5, 2018)

When I say ‘introduce new blood’ I don’t mean from an entirely new bloodline. More like, a mouse from across the room who was less related. Most of the mice they bred were very closely related (sibs, mother/son father/daughter) so grabbing a mouse from a couple of runs away usually meant that mouse was LESS closely related and ‘spinners’ would disappear in that particular tub for a couple generations before popping up again


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## Sdaji (Aug 6, 2018)

I maintained about a dozen colonies of mice for quite a number of years and many many generations without adding new blood to any of them. I think I saw one or two 'spinners' in total, the entire time. When I eventually ended those colonies it was because I stopped keeping rodents. I'm sure they'd have continued successfully indefinitely.

I don't buy the 'it's caused by inbreeding' story.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 6, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> I maintained about a dozen colonies of mice for quite a number of years and many many generations without adding new blood to any of them. I think I saw one or two 'spinners' in total, the entire time. When I eventually ended those colonies it was because I stopped keeping rodents. I'm sure they'd have continued successfully indefinitely.
> 
> I don't buy the 'it's caused by inbreeding' story.


I don’t believe it either or the genetics, otherwise we would only see them in certain “lines” as we have a few racks

Currently there is no correlation with eachother and what tubs we find them


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