# Green tree pythons $400



## AntaresiaFreak13 (Apr 30, 2013)

I just found out that in America GTPS go for as little as $400 thats really cheap
the question is do you think we should have that sort of price???


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## stimigex (Apr 30, 2013)

AntaresiaFreak13 said:


> I just found out that in America GTPS go for as little as $400 thats really cheap
> the question is do you think we should have that sort of price???



Why??


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## Ambush (Apr 30, 2013)

Riverwood California had then for $300 us


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## AntaresiaFreak13 (Apr 30, 2013)

stimigex said:


> Why??



because the only ones I have seen for sale are over $1000


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## solar 17 (Apr 30, 2013)

AntaresiaFreak13 said:


> I just found out that in America GTPS go for as little as $400 thats really cheap
> the question is do you think we should have that sort of price???


Well why dont YOU buy a breeding pair of GTP's and sell the hatchies for that then you can tell the story 1st hand instead of picking out part of the story.....solar 17


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## TheChondroCharm (Apr 30, 2013)

i doubt they will drop much more here. the lowest Ive seen is $700 and that was a one off. the rest range from $1000-$4000 dupending. a snake is worth what someone will pay for it. that's the bottom line.

but the low price over there would be the market. think about it. the market of people buying snakes there would be 15 times that of Australia. just as car parts are cheaper there, clothing, houses, everything. its not that they are a cheap snake its that America has a crappy economy right now and that's just what they are worth. prices drop with competition. just as the price has dropped here. 15 years ago they were $10k if not more. as more people breed them the market gets flooded and why pay $10k when the fellah down the road is offering the same for $5k for a quick sale.. just keeps being cut as breeders see fit.

i got offered one in bali for around $45.


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## ericrs (Apr 30, 2013)

solar 17 said:


> Well why dont YOU buy a breeding pair of GTP's and sell the hatchies for that then you can tell the story 1st hand instead of picking out part of the story.....solar 17



couldnt agree more. even at 1000 they are worth every penny. i would love to know if they were pure??? highly doubt it. 
you get what you pay for. simple as that.


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## thomasssss (Apr 30, 2013)

ericrs said:


> couldnt agree more. even at 1000 they are worth every penny. i would love to know if they were pure??? highly doubt it.
> you get what you pay for. simple as that.


what would they be crossed with , im assuming some sort of carpet but wouldnt that show in the offspring ? being that their mainly green when mature with little patterning nothing like any of the other morelia


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## stimigex (Apr 30, 2013)

AntaresiaFreak13 said:


> because the only ones I have seen for sale are over $1000



As far as i am concerned thats a very fair price !


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## solar 17 (Apr 30, 2013)

One of the main reasons why America has such cheap reptiles compared to us is that they can import from virtually any country in the world ......now do we really want this scenario considering that according to US. Fish & Game reports 40 species are in plague numbers in the Southern US states that aren't native to the US...... solar 17 Baden


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## ericrs (Apr 30, 2013)

by pure i mean aussie or biak or aru. etc. locality. sorry the jacks is goin down a little to well tonight!


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## saintanger (Apr 30, 2013)

i'm happy to pay $1000 for 1 GTP or more if need be, depending on locality and what parents look like i'd even pay $2000 for a hatchie if it was what i wanted. 

i plan on buying 2 this year and i am looking at spending over $2500 for 2 hatchies and i am happy with that price. remember you pay for what you want and quality.

the cheapest GTP i have seen for sale was $650 and it had a deformity and was not on licence.


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## moosenoose (Apr 30, 2013)

Give me a few and I'll breed them and flog em off for $200 each  No dramas! I'd never spend $1k on anything... dog, cat, DVD player :lol: Not worth the money IMO.


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## dragondragon (Apr 30, 2013)

Damit I got excited


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## sara_sabian (May 1, 2013)

To be honest I don't really want to see their price drop much lower. I'm not a breeder (one day I hope), just an avid buyer, so I have no vested interest in this right now. I like that they are becoming more accessible so more people can afford to experience how great these animals are but at the same time we have to acknowledge that they are a bit more fiddly to keep, I don't want to see them so cheap that they become disposable. 

If I were breeding them and saw they were going for bog standard carpet prices, I'd stop breeding them or I'd give them away to friends. The truth is that most people will be more careful with an animal they can't afford to see die. Knowing how special greens are, as a breeder, it would twist my insides to think they were suffering so in a way I think their price tag protects them a bit and if that is the case it should stay that way.

Before anyone makes the argument that poor keepers can take as much care of their animals as rich keepers, I'm not arguing with you, I agree, the point I'm making is that if you pay a lot for something it's gonna hurt in more than one way if it dies, so most people will show more respect to the expensive thing. Most, not all.

Also a lot of the breeders bought these animals when they demanded a much higher price tag, they risked big money on them, they shouldn't have to give the babies away. Don't like it? risk a bit of your own money and lead by example 

Not attacking anyone, just my thoughts.


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## andynic07 (May 1, 2013)

The way the price will drop is if the availability increase. The more snakes available compared to the number of customer means people will drop the price to compete.In my opinion I am not sure if this will be the case in Australia for a while because Australian keepers see them as one of the harder species to keep and possibly breed.


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## Justdragons (May 1, 2013)

once anyone has the chance to hold a gtp you can see why they are worth the money.. i had the chance to look after one once.. even though it died the snake was magical and its has been set(in my mind) as the one python that when im ready to reduce my collection and have just on python. The GTP will be it. They really are that special.. i have a photo or 2 of me holding her.. she really was a star 

re reading that i thought i should outline that the python was in my care because she was very sick, in the end i had her euthed at the vet.. there is a thread somewhere.. lol not because of my poor husbandry.. thought id add that.


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## mic772 (May 1, 2013)

Most every day Americans earn less than Australians do.


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## Barrett (May 1, 2013)

I see the prices we have over here as being fair. It will probably be another 10 years+ before we see any sort of drop in pricing - the cheapest I've seen is $800 for a sorong hatchy. In a bit over a year I plan to get a pair of biak hatchys and am looking at paying $3k+ for them and probably another grand, if not more, on all the equipment to make sure they are living in a great environment. 

For such a beautiful snake I would dread the day they are being sold for under $500, as then there is more of a chance for them to be released, either by accident or on purpose, back into the wild in a geographical range that is insufficient of their needs and that would ultimately kill them. Especially considering that they are less resilient than a lot of other species and have certain essential environmental needs that cannot be supplied in most regions of Australia.


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## Mr.James (May 1, 2013)

They also sell GTP's in America for thousands of dollars. It all comes down to supply, demand & quality of the stock. How many Americans breed Aussie GTP's? 

Designer or proven lineage stock animals will always fetch a higher price.


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## sara_sabian (May 1, 2013)

Barrett said:


> I see the prices we have over here as being fair. It will probably be another 10 years+ before we see any sort of drop in pricing - the cheapest I've seen is $800 for a sorong hatchy.



$800 for a pure sorong? No offence but I doubt that, I saw some pure sorong babies were around $3k earlier this year. There are precious few true sorong adults getting around, I think the term is getting thrown around a bit. 

As greens get more prevalent in collections the price of standards will probably drop as more designers are bred and sought after. Like with all reptiles, some lines will cost more, I just don't want to see any of them become 'cheap'


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## moosenoose (May 1, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> The way the price will drop is if the availability increase.



And the best way to keep them unavailable is to keep the prices high :lol: I don't think they are as sort after as some would like to believe, or have their prices lead you to believe. Personally I find adders just as interesting...and I've sold all of mine :lol:


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## andynic07 (May 1, 2013)

VenomOOse said:


> And the best way to keep them unavailable is to keep the prices high :lol: I don't think they are as sort after as some would like to believe, or have their prices lead you to believe. Personally I find adders just as interesting...and I've sold all of mine :lol:


I love elapids but I do not have the confidence yet to own one.


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## dangles (May 1, 2013)

mic772 said:


> Most every day Americans earn less than Australians do.



Yes but they dont pay $6US s gallon for fuel or our massive energy prices either. Not to mention real estate prices etc. Friends that moved there from australia have commented on even with the lower income, they are far better off


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## SteveNT (May 1, 2013)

You think so? I wouldn't swap my lot to be an American.


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## patonthego (May 1, 2013)

VenomOOse said:


> Give me a few and I'll breed them and flog em off for $200 each  No dramas! I'd never spend $1k on anything... dog, cat, DVD player :lol: Not worth the money IMO.


I agree, what makes them so special anyway, Bredli, Coastals and Murray darlings are just as good and handling is no problem


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## bk201 (May 1, 2013)

I dont see why they wont drop...the people who were paying 10k a pair sold each hatchling for 3-5k those sold for 1.2-2.5 and now those are selling for 750-1k why wont the people paying 750ea be selling them for 600-700ea then those who buy those...its simple supply and demand especially being class 2 in NSW...


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## Burnerism (May 1, 2013)

Understandably people just want a return on their outlay. But we should remember and consider ourselfs lucky that this hobby generally gets a pretty good return as is. Why should only the better well off be only able to have nicer things. Saying that their more expensive because of there care needs and if there cheaper they will become expandable is rubbish. There's good and bad in all.


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## jibbyt (May 1, 2013)

sara_sabian said:


> $800 for a pure sorong? No offence but I doubt that, I saw some pure sorong babies were around $3k earlier this year. There are precious few true sorong adults getting around, I think the term is getting thrown around a bit.
> 
> As greens get more prevalent in collections the price of standards will probably drop as more designers are bred and sought after. Like with all reptiles, some lines will cost more, I just don't want to see any of them become 'cheap'


 you should look around a bit more. Ive seen sorongs at that price. Sxr sell them cheap. Do your research before crtisism.


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## sara_sabian (May 1, 2013)

I said no offense, settle down. Doubt equals 'scepticism' not 'criticism'

I have done my research and from what I've read of SXR's gtps there is no guarantee that they are pure sorongs as they use multiple males. I'd rather go with the 3k animals I've seen than the cheap and cheerful versions, that my preference. 
No offence meant to SXR or their animals, they are lovely, healthy animals but there are much better examples of this locality around, even if they cost more. Do your research.


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## No-two (May 1, 2013)

jibbyt said:


> you should look around a bit more. Ive seen sorongs at that price. Sxr sell them cheap. Do your research before crtisism.



Sorongs and "sorongs" are completely different things...

I would also like to add that I have better and nicer things because I worked for them and bought them. If you can't afford it you can't have it, simple.


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## jibbyt (May 1, 2013)

sara_sabian said:


> I said no offense, settle down. Doubt equals 'scepticism' not 'criticism'
> 
> I have done my research and from what I've read of SXR's gtps there is no guarantee that they are pure sorongs as they use multiple males. I'd rather go with the 3k animals I've seen than the cheap and cheerful versions, that my preference.
> No offence meant to SXR or their animals, they are lovely, healthy animals but there are much better examples of this locality around, even if they cost more. Do your research.



Lol. I love when people say " no offence" eg No offence but youve put on weight etc lol. All ok. Believe what you want. I have pure Sorongs and I dont sell them for 3k.


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## jibbyt (May 1, 2013)

Too true! Anyway off to tend to reptiles.


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## Owzi (May 1, 2013)

Sarah_sabian is spot on! It does my head in how often I see a GTP with a couple of blue highlights labelled 'Sorong'. Yes in Australia we can only really go by locality 'types' & use images of the adults of our hatchies to gauge how true the locality type they are labelled with is. At the end of the day pictures speak a thousand words & the $3K Sorongs are certainly priced correctly compared to every other 'Sorong type' I've seen advertised in recent years.

Captive bred USA animals still command top dollar, as Solar17 said, the cheap stuff is imported. I think prices will remain similar to how they are now, some lines will drop or designer type will increase. The variation in this species is endless & they are worth every dollar!


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## Red-Ink (May 1, 2013)

AntaresiaFreak13 said:


> I just found out that in America GTPS go for as little as $400 thats really cheap
> the question is do you think we should have that sort of price???




Sure why not, we definitely could achieve those prices too if we "relocate" hatchies from the forest of Indo and PNG into plastic coke bottles to set sail for the closest pet shop near you. We do that every year and I'm sure we can even drive it down to $200.


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## Burnerism (May 1, 2013)

No-two said:


> Sorongs and "sorongs" are completely different things...
> 
> I would also like to add that I have better and nicer things because I worked for them and bought them. If you can't afford it you can't have it, simple.


That was not what I ment. No need to get your back up about it mr high and mighty


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## Burnerism (May 1, 2013)

Perhaps I should of just came out and said it originally. For the most part people who still try to argue for higher prices are generally greedy breeders and a bunch of Malcolm Turnbulls


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## stimigex (May 1, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Perhaps I should of just came out and said it originally. For the most part people who still try to argue for higher prices are generally greedy breeders and a bunch of Malcolm Turnbulls



Well using your logic, The ones that complain about higher priced reptiles are the one that will never afford them in the first place!


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## No-two (May 1, 2013)

If you can do a better job and sell them cheaper do it.


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## Burnerism (May 1, 2013)

I said generally stimigex (and should of added not just with gtp's and with the monopolisation of morphs etc by some well know breeding facilities/set ups) I don't care if my opinions are unpopular, I understand what goes into breeding however the attitude from some people like our good friend no-two here just furthers how I interpret certain things. You've got a good mentality no-two as is evident in alot of your posts. Expect a pm as I for one am above cheap unfounded attacks on the open forum.


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## sara_sabian (May 1, 2013)

This is why we can't have nice things.


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## RedFox (May 1, 2013)

A lot if what I was going to say has already being said. These 
animals are worth what people will pay for them. It is difficult to compare prices with different countries because of the amount and variety available to those different countries.

In the US there is a lot of mixed locality GTP around, as they breed large quantities and widely available. Whereas Australia there is limited stock and aren't widely available. As Red-Ink said if we were to import a lot of GTP like what the US has done we too could get mix locale pythons for $400ish.

In comparison, here Darwins are breed in huge quanties and are widely available. Normals sell for under $200 and albinos sell for $800 or less. They are worth considerably more in the US. 

I wholeheartedly believe in quality over quantity. If I truly want something I will happily save until I can afford it. I would rather have a little or what I love than a lot of what I don't. And as long as others are happy to pay the asking price for these animals I don't see the price dropping any time soon.


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## Marzzy (May 1, 2013)

Thread Closed ?


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## RedFox (May 1, 2013)

How did it get so nasty so quickly? After volunteering with RSPCA and working with other shelters, I can say that I belive there is a correlation between the price of a pet and the amount of care it gets. Obviously not all the time and the majority of the time people genuinely care for their animals regardless of the cost. But most the animals that are abuses, neglected or abandoned were animals that cost the owners less. For example the majority of horses that were reported to RSPCA were thoroughbreds who were either give free off the track or sold for a couple of hundred.

Similarly, there were very few purebreed cats surrendered or seized. With dogs the majority of purebres were those readily available and that cost very little eg. Cattle dogs, kelpies, Staffys. 

This is not to say that cost and value go hand and hand as cost refers to money but value refers to a mindset.


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## Wiganov (May 1, 2013)

Once in a while I see something that makes me nostalgic for the days before the internet...


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## Barrett (May 1, 2013)

Come on people, don't need to get into a flame war and bring forth personal messages that have been sent. I don't know if the Sorongs that were being sold for $800 were pure Sorongs or not. They looked the part, but, as stated, with the variation these days it can be hard to tell. I'm holding out for a pair of Biaks when I have the correct license and would love if they were cheaper, but am not fussed if they aren't, as it just means I need to save for longer. 

Also to the person who made a derogatory remark towards people on centrelink (can't be bothered going back to check), some people, definitely not saying all, have a legitimate reason to be on centrelink.


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## mcloughlin2 (May 1, 2013)

I think it is only common sense that they will continue dropping in price. There is no chance that GTPs will maintain steady @ $1000 for 10 years.


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## No-two (May 1, 2013)

Barrett said:


> Also to the person who made a derogatory remark towards people on centrelink (can't be bothered going back to check), some people, definitely not saying all, have a legitimate reason to be on centrelink.



Thats not what I said. I have nothing against people that actually need it. 

I bought my first chondros when I was 18 and they cost more than they do now. Explain to me why almost 4 years on I should be called a greedy breeder (or any breeder with high end animals) because not everyone can afford them, jealousy is not going to change the price. 

A marbled childrens python is probably no harder to breed than a normal childrens python. Does that mean they should be $200 each and the owner is greedy? Any colour morph is essentially the same.

It goes both ways, everyone always knocks people selling desirable snakes but no one ever jumps up and says 'wow they're really cool, I'd like some however I can't afford them' its always 'they're overpriced' or some form of 'when will the price come down' and a brief explanation of why it should/must/will.


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## Paintbrushturkey (May 2, 2013)

What is it about this forum that makes us take a friendly discussion of american and australian prices for a beautiful animal and cave our heads in over it. People's opionions may vary, but to belittle one another for each other's opinion is plain childish. As far as price is concerned who are we to label a seller as "greedy" when what is for sale is truly unique and highly sought after? I think it has come to a shocking point where we cannot appreciate the uniqueness of something like green tree pythons because of their price tag. Obviously i do not intend to offend anyone here and apologize if i did, but that is my opinion....

@ No-two: 100% agree with your statement, and for the record no, i cannot afford or own "high-end" animals, however I'm more than happy with what i have and wouldn't replace any of them with another snake no matter the "gain" of the transaction.... that said I most certainly have been wistfully looking at all the GTP pics on this forum, but my time will come, eventually , but then who hasn't


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## Omgitschris (May 2, 2013)

As to your previous comment, where you said that you understand about breeding snakes, surely you would understand why more difficult to breed snakes fetch a higher price ? If they went as easily as any other morelia perhaps the price would be lower. 
Perhaps you should try risking an investment of your own in a breeding pair and sell your GTP hatchlings for the price you feel reasonable ? 
At the end of the day, if you don't agree with the price of something, don't buy it, and don't complain about it. Or move to America.


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## longqi (May 2, 2013)

$1000 is nothing compared to 15 years ago

Then a nice female was about $15,000

Of course the price will drop more eventually
But that is just market influences


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## Barrett (May 2, 2013)

No-two said:


> I bought my first chondros when I was 18 and they cost more than they do now. Explain to me why almost 4 years on I should be called a greedy breeder (or any breeder with high end animals) because not everyone can afford them, jealousy is not going to change the price.



I don't know if you were aiming that comment at me. I just want to state that I haven't called anyone greedy, just in case you interpreted anything I said as coming off like that. I honestly feel they are a fair price and as time goes on prices will drop, but that's to be expected.



Omgitschris said:


> Or move to America.



On another note, wouldn't be cool if you could live in both Australia and America, having two separate collections. Then I'd definitely put my dual citizenship to use. Though would probably need an insane amount of money to continually cross between the two countries. I'll stop there as I am going a bit off topic lol.


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## Burnerism (May 2, 2013)

Lol are you two mates are ya? I simply stated that if no two wants to jump on a band wagon, take my coments out of context and "behave childish" ie centrelink payments then he can expect to receive the same. It would also seem you would rather shoot someone down then engage them in conversation about their opinion. I hate to bring a thread into disrepute, however I will not be spoken down to for having an opinion. So then omgitschris, simple economics will dictate that new mutations will demand a higher price at the beginning for numerous reasons. Once they are in steady enough supply tho why do you think they should maintain a higher price tag? As I stated earlier its because everyone at the end of the day it is chasing the all might dolla. I wrote very briefly about the monopoly that some organisations hold, perhaps you should think about what I ment about that aswell before you resort to "childish behaviour" in the guise of a well constructed paragraph, ie don't buy it don't complain or move to America.


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## Omgitschris (May 2, 2013)

I'm glad you appreciate a well structured paragraph. 
What are you basing your views on in regards to the money chasing ? 
And who should dictate when there is a steady supply, yourself, or the seller. Perhaps a red book for snakes ? 
Sinple economics would also dictate that the price would only come down if the quality of an animal were matched and had a cheaper price tag. That's a big step for a breeder who has invested a lot of time and money in breeding a prized mutation to flog them off at a cheaper price to appease the general public. 
If every seller was as generous as you are proposing maybe you might see me driving an Aston Martin vanquish. 
Although Aston Martin Lagonda Limited probably wouldn't bother producing said vanquish if they were making a loss on their product. 
You need to recognize more goes into establishing a mutation, line, morph or species than buying a pair and throwing them together and hoping for the best. 
Livestock dies occasionally, they're taking the risk, you're not. 
You are only purchasing an animal surplus to their needs, it's their option to sell it for what ever price they deem reasonable. You can't control that, and they don't (shouldn't) force you to buy it. What's the issue ?


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## Burnerism (May 2, 2013)

I actually apreaciate a reply with thought, points made and examples, which you just provided so thank you, as opposed to off topic, unnecessary insults. It's late I'm tired and everything has deriveded from the original points that I'm having trouble keeping up with. I think my main point origionally was the attitude that I've seen over the years in threads is that it seems alot of breeders offer no real argument as to why an animals price should come down when said certain morph is been bred in large numbers by a large amount of people for a few years. I am talking about after theyve been first made available and after the initial craze. I did also say originally this was a general conception of mine and definitely not conclusive of all breeders. I very lightly touched on the monopoly some larger facilities hold and play in regards to obtaining new morphs etc but don't wish to discuss it openly to much on this site, I did however make the assumption that atleast a few people would get what I ment with that. 
To conclude tho I was playing abit of devils advocate and expressing my beleifs on some of the attitudes I've noticed over the years in retaining a stronghold on the market when it comes to price on animals that are been breed in large enough numbers, which I believe was what the op was getting to. I understand economics and all that and your above points are right in regards to your Aston Martin lol. I'm sure alot of this could of been avoided if opinions were discussed origionally, as is half the basis of this forum.


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## solar 17 (May 2, 2013)

l posted on this thread as IMO the price comparison between Australia and America was taken completely out of text and one very small point highlighted, but gee wizz this personal mud slinging is a bit much l believe. At the end of the day a reptile is worth what two people agree on NOW if you wake up in the morning and everybody likes/loves the same thing it would be a boring world.......just saying solar 17 Baden


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## Waterrat (May 2, 2013)

I like the market analysis and fiscal predictions put forward here by economic experts and comments from people who obviously bred hundreds of chondros. Interesting reading.

Michael


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## Pythoninfinite (May 2, 2013)

To those who bleat about the price of GTPs... try spending literally hundreds of hours with a couple of clutches (maybe 50 animals) of difficult starters, to get them ready to sell to people who may well kill them in their first week. Not all clutches are difficult, but some are pains in the butt, and you can put in 3-5 hours a night for weeks getting them going. The newbies who think everything is easy because they just buy what comes out at the end of it are the main offenders. I have 2 GTPS here which I have had for 6-7 years now, and cost me $15000 for the two. I'd be lucky to get $5000 for them now, even though they are now a proven pair.

I'm certainly not complaining about that - I love the species so to a large extent cost is immaterial (my wife isn't home while I type this!), but as others have said, price simply reflects the market. GTPs have dropped from $7k a baby to $800-$1200 a baby in about 5 years... how much faster do you want prices to crash just so a newbie can get his/her hands on an elite (in my opinion) snake on the day their licence arrives?

Jamie


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## andynic07 (May 2, 2013)

Waterrat said:


> I like the market analysis and fiscal predictions put forward here by economic experts and comments from people who obviously bred hundreds of chondros. Interesting reading.
> 
> Michael


I understand what you are saying but do you really think someone should not have an opinion unless they are an expert? This thread kept me up reading it last night as well.



Pythoninfinite said:


> To those who bleat about the price of GTPs... try spending literally hundreds of hours with a couple of clutches (maybe 50 animals) of difficult starters, to get them ready to sell to people who may well kill them in their first week. Not all clutches are difficult, but some are pains in the butt, and you can put in 3-5 hours a night for weeks getting them going. The newbies who think everything is easy because they just buy what comes out at the end of it are the main offenders. I have 2 GTPS here which I have had for 6-7 years now, and cost me $15000 for the two. I'd be lucky to get $5000 for them now, even though they are now a proven pair.
> 
> I'm certainly not complaining about that - I love the species so to a large extent cost is immaterial (my wife isn't home while I type this!), but as others have said, price simply reflects the market. GTPs have dropped from $7k a baby to $800-$1200 a baby in about 5 years... how much faster do you want prices to crash just so a newbie can get his/her hands on an elite (in my opinion) snake on the day their licence arrives?
> 
> Jamie


I have no idea on the keeping of GTP's or the raising of their clutches but if you are right and I would imagine you would be it is this fact that will limit the number of breeders and therefore keep the prices from dropping.


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## Waterrat (May 2, 2013)

Jamie is dead right Andy, trust me, hence my sarcastic comment. Everybody can have an opinion but only some qualify.


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## Wally (May 2, 2013)

Death, tax and threads on GTP prices......


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## DarkApe (May 2, 2013)

as more people own and breed them the supply over takes the demand and prices will crash. i personally think it needs to happen as gtp have had there day.


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## Burnerism (May 2, 2013)

It doesn't matter how many hours you've put into clutches any how much your initial outlay was really. If you don't get enjoyment from the aspects of breeding then why are you doing it in the first place? Because your Steve Irwin wildlife conservationist? I don't think so. It's that all mighty $$$ again. How many people do you think seen and thought this is a great opportunity to make some cash in something i love doing when they were selling for 15 large. Probably more then most of you would like to admit. You outlaying that money originally, that's your problem. You could of brought stock or invested in a donut king stand. All are risk vs reward. Keeping reptiles is a luxury not a nesescity, western culture has massive consumerism and we have a pretty damn good economy so it is us at the end of the day who have more sway over prices after the initial release and buzz. Unless you want to keep all your clutches and stay in your little secret cloak and dagger society that is. Some of you are more then welcome to with how high you think you hold your nose up. Not everyone cares about the politics or even what goes into producing said animals or what isolated specific pocket of the jungle it comes from. And that doesn't mean they don't love the animal any less. At the end of the day don't forget your breeding for the market.


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## andynic07 (May 2, 2013)

Waterrat said:


> Jamie is dead right Andy, trust me, hence my sarcastic comment. Everybody can have an opinion but only some qualify.


An intelligent person can make a valid point in a discussion without being an expert. That is all I am saying and it in no way relates to any other post apart from the two between you and I.


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## Burnerism (May 2, 2013)

And don't get me wrong either I'm simply pointing out the other side of the argument which really is no more right or wrong then Jamie's, which I happened to agree with aswell, it's true and was well said.


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## jibbyt (May 2, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> It doesn't matter how many hours you've put into clutches any how much your initial outlay was really. If you don't get enjoyment from the aspects of breeding then why are you doing it in the first place? Because your Steve Irwin wildlife conservationist? I don't think so. It's that all mighty $$$ again. How many people do you think seen and thought this is a great opportunity to make some cash in something i love doing when they were selling for 15 large. Probably more then most of you would like to admit. You outlaying that money originally, that's your problem. You could of brought stock or invested in a donut king stand. All are risk vs reward. Keeping reptiles is a luxury not a nesescity, western culture has massive consumerism and we have a pretty damn good economy so it is us at the end of the day who have more sway over prices after the initial release and buzz. Unless you want to keep all your clutches and stay in your little secret cloak and dagger society that is. Some of you are more then welcome to with how high you think you hold your nose up. Not everyone cares about the politics or even what goes into producing said animals or what isolated specific pocket of the jungle it comes from. And that doesn't mean they don't love the animal any less. At the end of the day don't forget your breeding for the market.


Well said!


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## Red-Ink (May 2, 2013)

10 years ago RSP were the same price as GTPs (in the 10k mark)... I just got one for trade for three unsexed hatchling geckos (yeah.. I know, cool story).

Why did the GTPs not plummet as much as the RSPs? I don't know? 

I know what we could do though.. ask the breeders that breed them rather than crapping on about why their price is so high and making speculations.

I used to think the same (greedy high end breeders)... ahhh those were the days when ignorance was bliss but it never stopped me crying out whoe though as well.
But these days I know better (hopefully) and rather than having strong opinions on things I know sweet FA about... I ask questions first.


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## Wild~Touch (May 2, 2013)

Not so long ago the going price for a high quality 2 yr.old male centralian hypo was $1,500.00

What price are they now 

Hypo centralian hatchlings were $400/450 ea........I know because I still have 3 now adults (prob.worth zilch.) but I like the animals anyway


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## RedFox (May 2, 2013)

Yes but how many RSP have we seen for sale this season compared to GTP? I think we have already established that two things control the market: supply and demand. There are lots of RSP and not as much demand. For GTP to keep a reasonable place there must be a greater demand. As for Bredli... Well I think that is pretty self explanatory. They seem to be more common than weeds.

To be honest, I would prefer a pair of RSP to GTP but then if we all liked the same thing the world would be a very dull place. 

Also I have no experience with breeding GTP or any pythons for that matter so feel free to disregard my opinion, as I obviously have no idea.


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## Burnerism (May 2, 2013)

I never flat out stated that its just greedy high end breeders. Read my posts properly first before seeing red and becoming fixated on it as apposed to reading all I had to say and thinking about it. A forum is a place for learning and discussion, and we are having a discussion. One of my points was the superior attitude alot of these breeders have, I'm well aware of all the work waterrat does for the hobby/conservation/animals etc however alot of his posts are snide remarks without explaining his belief or opinion. Therefore is it not just to form the opinion of them that I have. I know I am not alone in that either, the only diffrence is I will come out and say it. Again I'm not trying to start arguments or attacks I'm just discussing these things. So Red-Ink, if we don't have these threads or raise these issues/opinions/questions with everyone how are we supposed to know? Especially when breeders like waterrat hold his nose high avoids questions and drops degrading remarks. Are we supposed to conduct skull and bones smoke and daggers behind the scenes discussions and accept what's said without asking questions? Please don't take me the wrong way either red-ink (as is quick to happen on here ) as I'm not trying to be a smarty pants I'm just raising these points and asking these questions.


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## Waterrat (May 2, 2013)

Burnerism, I have learned a lot about the pitfalls of engaging in arguments on forums, that's why don't post any more. As for avoiding questions, look up my web site - I don't think what I do with my snakes can be more transparent. Yes, I avoid questions (especially provocative ones) that may lead to arguments but I share all my knowledge, experiences and fun with others in my publications and on Facebook. 

Cheers
Michael


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## Burnerism (May 2, 2013)

No dramas Michael I was more just using your post as an example from red-ink about actually asking the breeders and the general results. Like I said tho I am aware of your vast amount of work and what you do actually put in and that is definitely invaluable I certainly wasn't questioning that. Also to generally clarify I'm not saying that the pure high end rarer animals should not command a higher price then the run of the mill readily available lines.


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## andynic07 (May 2, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> It doesn't matter how many hours you've put into clutches any how much your initial outlay was really. If you don't get enjoyment from the aspects of breeding then why are you doing it in the first place? Because your Steve Irwin wildlife conservationist? I don't think so. It's that all mighty $$$ again. How many people do you think seen and thought this is a great opportunity to make some cash in something i love doing when they were selling for 15 large. Probably more then most of you would like to admit. You outlaying that money originally, that's your problem. You could of brought stock or invested in a donut king stand. All are risk vs reward. Keeping reptiles is a luxury not a nesescity, western culture has massive consumerism and we have a pretty damn good economy so it is us at the end of the day who have more sway over prices after the initial release and buzz. Unless you want to keep all your clutches and stay in your little secret cloak and dagger society that is. Some of you are more then welcome to with how high you think you hold your nose up. Not everyone cares about the politics or even what goes into producing said animals or what isolated specific pocket of the jungle it comes from. And that doesn't mean they don't love the animal any less. At the end of the day don't forget your breeding for the market.


I think the majority of breeders are breeding snakes for the money and some find a bonus in that they enjoy it but not all breeders are greedy because they want to make money. I am sure there is some breeders that are greedy but you have to look at it like a business where the owner has to fork out the initial outlay and then spend their time in order to make money and their time is not free. If they were not spending a lot of time producing snakes and sometimes rats to feed the snakes they could be doing other work where they get paid money. The breeders want to get as much money back on there initial investment as any other other investor wants so will set the price of their product as high as the market will allow because lets face it if they set their price too high people will not buy their produce which brings me onto my next point. It is the consumer that has a big influence on pricing, if the consumer does not see the value in the product they will simply not buy it and the breeder will go out of business. You do make a lot of valid points but ultimately what Baden said is how it is , "At the end of the day a reptile is worth what two people agree on".


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## longqi (May 2, 2013)

BiGKeVsOnE said:


> as more people own and breed them the supply over takes the demand and prices will crash. i personally think it needs to happen as gtp have had there day.



GTPS will never 'have their day'
they are far to lovely for that
first to admit that the 'golden age' of low supply and high prices is over
but there will always be a market for them


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## Skeptic (May 2, 2013)

I got into my business because it was something I loved doing and was passionate about. But love and passion don't pay my mortgage or feed my kids so I have to charge a reasonable fee. If people don't think it's worth what I charge then they don't use my facility. 

Snake breeding IS a business for some people and therefore is still governed by the principles of commerce. Supply vs demand.


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## Red-Ink (May 2, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> I never flat out stated that its just greedy high end breeders. Read my posts properly first before seeing red and becoming fixated on it as apposed to reading all I had to say and thinking about it. A forum is a place for learning and discussion, and we are having a discussion. One of my points was the superior attitude alot of these breeders have, I'm well aware of all the work waterrat does for the hobby/conservation/animals etc however alot of his posts are snide remarks without explaining his belief or opinion. Therefore is it not just to form the opinion of them that I have. I know I am not alone in that either, the only diffrence is I will come out and say it. Again I'm not trying to start arguments or attacks I'm just discussing these things. So Red-Ink, if we don't have these threads or raise these issues/opinions/questions with everyone how are we supposed to know? Especially when breeders like waterrat hold his nose high avoids questions and drops degrading remarks. Are we supposed to conduct skull and bones smoke and daggers behind the scenes discussions and accept what's said without asking questions? Please don't take me the wrong way either red-ink (as is quick to happen on here ) as I'm not trying to be a smarty pants I'm just raising these points and asking these questions.



All good mate... not trying to start crap either. I just comment as I see it... no judgement of who's right and who's wrong when it comes to opinions.
I just wanted to point out that why don't we ask the breeders directly... If Michael is putting in the work, surely other breeders are as well.


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## stimigex (May 2, 2013)

Red-Ink said:


> I just wanted to point out that why don't we ask the breeders directly... If Michael is putting in the work, surely other breeders are as well.



I would have agree! The amount of hours we put in here getting hatchlings feeding would astound most people, If we take into consideration this point alone EVERY person that breeds is not making very much from each hatchling sold if anything on some breeds!
Why then do we do it, Because we are pasionate about our chosen hobby!

For anyone who has never had a crack at this side of reptile husbandry but thinks they understand what we do/go through Think again as you really are not in a position to pass judgment!


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## Red-Ink (May 2, 2013)

GTPs... the only snake species whose "bible" got a sequel. That's got to say something about their ease of care doesn't it?


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## karll (May 2, 2013)

every thing in this country is to much.


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (May 2, 2013)

Oh my god people are breeding snakes to make money?How dare they do it for any reason but "passion". Its unfair that people are making money from their business instead of taking a loss for love of the hobby. 

It's supply and demand. Its business. Its one person doing something for someone, in return for something from someone else. What's the big deal?

I don't know what goes into being a mechanic, so I don't whinge that they charge too much. Some others should do the same.


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## No-two (May 2, 2013)

Red-Ink said:


> GTPs... the only snake species whose "bible" got a sequel. That's got to say something about their ease of care doesn't it?



They're the worst feeding hatchies to get going that I've ever bred.


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## Virides (May 5, 2013)

When we were looking into other markets - US/UK, the US market for reptiles is roughly $1.5b US and the UK was $900m US (I think). We couldn't find exact figures in Australia but we estimated roughly $15-20m AUD. The US/UK have the market power to drive prices down. Sell the same product for less and make less margin can make you more money than selling less for a higher margin. Depends on the item and the demand. 

You can't expect the same price as a different set of circumstances. If you want the lower price you have to move to said country. But is that really worth the $600 difference 

Added:
Following on what others have mentioned about "breeders sell expensive reptiles they must be making a lot of money". You simply do not pick a number from a hat for your price. What goes into it is costs. There are tangible costs and non-tangible costs. Tangible being real, things you can touch, so mice/rats for feeding, enclosure expenses, cleaning, power costs, everything involving the upbringing of that animal (and the costs involved with the upbringing of the parents). Non-tangible being wages/labour. Most of the time I would figure that the breeders are solely ran, so they have to factor in what their time is worth. Generally what you feel you are comfortable with getting per hour. Some people feel they are worth $300 an hour, some, $20 an hour - it depends on how much you feel your expertise is worth (this is mainly a factor in service fields - tradies, consultants, etc).

A GTP hatchling might be $1500 but the breeder might be making $300 in the end. Maybe more, maybe less. If it was $300, they would effectively have to make 4 sales before that profit allowed them to break even on the 5th. So every 4 sales allowed them to expand on 1. But they may only sell 3 a season so it would be 2 seasons before they made an expansion on sales. But this is only possible if there are 4 people next season who want to purchase. Don't take this as pure data on sales, they probably sell more, but take it for what it represents. Prices may be high, but that doesn't mean they are swimming in pools of money.

Australia is a difficult marketplace, especially for niche markets, myself and a lot of business have many struggles but our determination is what keeps us alive


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## DarkApe (May 5, 2013)

nothing good to say


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## M-E-G-Z (May 11, 2013)

nothing to do with price but just interested in gtp do you need a international animals add on your recreational licence to purchase a qtp?


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## zulu (May 13, 2013)

Virides said:


> When we were looking into other markets - US/UK, the US market for reptiles is roughly $1.5b US and the UK was $900m US (I think). We couldn't find exact figures in Australia but we estimated roughly $15-20m AUD. The US/UK have the market power to drive prices down. Sell the same product for less and make less margin can make you more money than selling less for a higher margin. Depends on the item and the demand.
> 
> You can't expect the same price as a different set of circumstances. If you want the lower price you have to move to said country. But is that really worth the $600 difference
> 
> ...



The reason GTPs are cheap in the USA is not about the larger market place really, they import from indonesia and other places legally.
They are reportedly farm bred ,most are just wild collected and laundered in various ways as being captive bred.
Check out places like amazon and there is loads of farmed imports being sold ,it has an effect of crashing prices generally.


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## Flaviruthless (May 13, 2013)

M-E-G-Z said:


> nothing to do with price but just interested in gtp do you need a international animals add on your recreational licence to purchase a qtp?



If you can't prove that it's a native then yes.


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## Morgan_dragon (May 14, 2013)

Wow, wow, wow

Considering it has just taken me nearly 5 months to get the last of my GTP hatchies to feed consistently on their own....and you want me to sell it for $200? $400? 

I had absolutely no problem selling our hatchies with proven bloodlines for $1,500 ea the season just gone. The person who purchased that last one? also is on a low income and took 6mths to pay it off. But I guess that makes me a greedy breeder? Lol you stay up until 2am in the morning spending hours getting your breeders fed and then hatchies feeding and then get up at 5am and start your day all over again. Better yet, you come and work my hours for me getting everything done and I'll pay you $200 a hatchie as I sell them 

If you want the American pricing then perhaps the American mentality of alot of breeders can come with it....breed a crapload of cheap snakes and the ones that are hard simply die. Mix your bloodlines and sell the ones you dont kill off because they are to hard to get feeding as GTPs with no locale attached for $500.

Personally I will be keeping my pure lines pure and already have a waiting list for this seasons hatchies at the same prices as last year...I agree with the others that said it. Good quality animals will always demand higher pricing and a breeders reputation will allow that to happen. People like Michael Cermak will never be stuck with their good quality animals because Joe down the road has a clutch of unknown origins for half the price, people will pay extra simply for the fact they are Cermak animals...


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