# Keeping snakes in small containers



## brayden49 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hi guys ive been seeing some videos on youtube of people who own 20-30 snakes and house them in plastic containers with not much room to move around. I know alot of Breeders house there snakes this way but how does the snake get the right body temperature's. When all it is getting is the one temperature?


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## Tassie97 (Jan 13, 2011)

yeah thats what i think too like on snakebytestv he has thousands of snakes in small draws i dont see how they all get proper heat?


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## -Matt- (Jan 13, 2011)

A row of heat cord run under the back of the tub.


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## hornet (Jan 13, 2011)

they can still move from hot to cold. you have heat cord under 1 end and nothin under the other so they get 1 hot end and 1 cool end


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## brayden49 (Jan 13, 2011)

Yes that is correct but some of these snakes are so big that even if they went to the cool end there body will still be in the hot end some idiots on youtube have no clue.


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## ekipkcorb (Jan 13, 2011)

[video=youtube;wcmZe3FqKS0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcmZe3FqKS0[/video]


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## Waterrat (Jan 13, 2011)

Body heat is one thing.
These people have very different attitude. They perceive their snakes as units / items / product, anything but wild animals. Some argue that reptiles born in captivity know no better, so it's OK to keep them in small plastic boxes. They do survive, they even breed. With the exception of mass production reptile farmers, I will never understand how can these people derive any pleasure from having reptile collections. Efficiency and easy maintenance seems to be the key word. Where is the sense in keeping large number of animals in such conditions? On many occasions I have been accused of "breeding for profit", I challenge those keepers / breeders any time - what are they in for?
Each to their own but I could never degrade reptiles, not even domestic animals to that level.


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## Tristan (Jan 13, 2011)

i think i would have to completely agree with Waterrat, i have never understood how people can keep animals in rack systems like that with the claim that they dont need a lot of space, even if the animal does not know any better it still has the right to have some decent living conditions/space


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## Tassie97 (Jan 13, 2011)

its just crazy and i think it over there is more for the money


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## Jay84 (Jan 13, 2011)

Tristan said:


> i think i would have to completely agree with Waterrat, i have never understood how people can keep animals in rack systems like that with the claim that they dont need a lot of space, even if the animal does not know any better it still has the right to have some decent living conditions/space



Do you breed your own rats or mice for snake food? If not, how do you think the ones you buy for your reptiles are kept?

---------- Post added 13-Jan-11 at 08:50 PM ----------




Tristan said:


> i think i would have to completely agree with Waterrat, i have never understood how people can keep animals in rack systems like that with the claim that they dont need a lot of space, even if the animal does not know any better it still has the right to have some decent living conditions/space



Do you breed your own rats or mice for snake food? How do you keep them? If not, how do you think the ones you buy for your reptiles are kept?


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## Jarrod_H (Jan 13, 2011)

not liking the way snakebitestv house there large snakes.
and the arboreal/semi arboreal snakes in 300mm high housing.

[video=youtube;nEqtJdq9wgY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEqtJdq9wgY[/video]

[video=youtube;lbMdz8Gja_M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbMdz8Gja_M&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SL[/video]


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## Tassie97 (Jan 13, 2011)

Yeah there is ne excitement of exploring their life involves eating mating and craping should have some enrichment


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## brayden49 (Jan 13, 2011)

Yes thats correct rats/mice are breed for snake food and they are kept in poor conditions for a short time until they are feed to the snake.Because the owner knows they are only going to be food for the snake. On the other hand snakes are pets and if they live in bad conditions they will most likely be stuck in bad conditions there whole life it would be just as worst of as the rats/mice


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## Jay84 (Jan 13, 2011)

So you are saying that because they are kept for the purpose of food it is ok with you to keep them in small lab style enclosures etc??

Double standards much??


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## hornet (Jan 13, 2011)

brayden49 said:


> Yes thats correct rats/mice are breed for snake food and they are kept in poor conditions for a short time until they are feed to the snake.Because the owner knows they are only going to be food for the snake. On the other hand snakes are pets and if they live in bad conditions they will most likely be stuck in bad conditions there whole life it would be just as worst of as the rats/mice


 
you believe mice and rats bred for snake food are kept in poor conditions? Have you ever seen how they are housed? Nothing poor about the way most feeder rodents are kept


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## brayden49 (Jan 13, 2011)

I personally do not breed my own rats/mice but thats the perspective most people have that breed rats/mice to there snakes.
If they treat them properly at the end of the day they are still going to be food and no better of


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## whyme (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree with jay84. Rodents in tubs to feed reptiles, reptiles in tubs to feed birds, birds in cages to feed reptiles, and reptiles in tubs to feed reptiles. How confusing is that!


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## gillsy (Jan 13, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> So you are saying that because they are kept for the purpose of food it is ok with you to keep them in small lab style enclosures etc??
> 
> Double standards much??



Agreed! And mice and rats are a hell of a lot more intelligent than snakes.


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## hornet (Jan 13, 2011)

brayden49 said:


> I personally do not breed my own rats/mice but thats the perspective most people have that breed rats/mice to there snakes.
> If they treat them properly at the end of the day they are still going to be food and no better of


 
where do you get that impression? Kept in substandard conditions they are more prone to disease and are going to be a poor quality feeders. Most keepers who breed their own food (and professional rodent breeders) know that keeping the mice or rats in conditions that imo are better then alot of pet mice and rats will in the end produce a much more halthy food item and much healthier animals


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## Jay84 (Jan 13, 2011)

brayden49 said:


> I personally do not breed my own rats/mice but thats the perspective most people have that breed rats/mice to there snakes.
> If they treat them properly at the end of the day they are still going to be food and no better of


 
I think you are a little uneducated in this area.


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## NATHAN93 (Jan 13, 2011)

[video=youtube;O27NCFfAW1M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O27NCFfAW1M&feature=channel[/video]

3:50


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## Waterrat (Jan 13, 2011)

Common guys, wake up! Laboratory mice and rats are not wildlife, they couldn't survive in natural environment for a week. Having said that, I have been involved in keeping / breeding native rodents as part of my studies for many years and my animals were always kept in landscaped, natural surroundings (as much as possible).
Snakes are not laboratory animals - get real !!!!!!!


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## gillsy (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't believe lab mice wouldn't survive in the wild, we're not saying in sub standard conditions. It's more the size that 3 or 4 mice are kept in small tubs.


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## Jay84 (Jan 13, 2011)

Im sure Mitchells Hopping mice would breed in the same size cages as lab mice..... I have seen it myself.


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## MDSTIM (Jan 14, 2011)

G'day,
This topic seems to come up every so often and raises a few questions that I thought worth posting -:
1. I wonder how people that only have a couple of snakes expect others with more to keep them....what "wall to wall" enclosures ?
2. What does anyone that has breeding snakes keep their hatchies in as they reach selling age, and also if they keep some what do they grow them out in ?
3. What are click clacks that a lot of people keep their snakes in ?....if not a "mobile" rack system ?

I like that people have their own opinions, and are prepared to voice them, but lets be a bit realistic w.r.t. snakes in rack systems, (or you probably wouldn't have any because their price would be sky high).


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## Snakelove (Jan 14, 2011)

MDSTIM said:


> G'day,
> This topic seems to come up every so often and raises a few questions that I thought worth posting -:
> 1. I wonder how people that only have a couple of snakes expect others with more to keep them....what "wall to wall" enclosures ?


 
I don't know about you but if it was me, I'd keep as many snakes as long as I can give them a proper enclosure and not a click clack or a rack system. So for the moment I only keep 2 snakes because I don't have anymore room to fit another enclosure. I could just easily get a rack of tubs and shove them in there and get another 3 or 4 more snakes but where's the good in that! My 2 cents

Cheers,
Nick


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## hornet (Jan 14, 2011)

it seems to me that alot of people dont realize that snakes dont care if they dont have a nice fake back ground, an attractive substrate, an attractive substrate. As long as the snake gets what it needs, food, heat, water, shelter they are happy. Is it just me or are we seeing the new generation of "beardie breast feeders" here lol


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 14, 2011)

hornet said:


> it seems to me that alot of people dont realize that snakes dont care if they dont have a nice fake back ground, an attractive substrate, an attractive substrate. As long as the snake gets what it needs, food, heat, water, shelter they are happy. Is it just me or are we seeing the new generation of "beardie breast feeders" here lol



Agreed. I use racking systems for a lot of my animals and I certainly don't feel as though I am "degrading" my animals in any way. They all have ample space, perches etc. All their needs are taken care of.

These posts without evidence are merely opinions - nothing more. Before having a dig at other keepers, please feel free to support those opinions of yours with evidence that an enclosure with a more "natural" appearance is beneficial to our animals and in what ways. If racking systems are so detrimental, please also provide evidence to support these claims.

An argument is an absolute waste of time if no one can support any of their claims.


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## maanz641 (Jan 14, 2011)

well said melissa


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## hornet (Jan 14, 2011)

i dont see any problem with natural enclosures (apart from being harder to clean) but i really dont see why people are so adamant tubs and racks are bad, it causes the snakes no harm and its much easier to keep clean. If you dont like them then dont use them, simple as that but i really dont see the need to have a go at the keepers who enjoy the benefits of housing this way.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jan 14, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Agreed. I use racking systems for a lot of my animals and I certainly don't feel as though I am "degrading" my animals in any way. They all have ample space, perches etc. All their needs are taken care of.
> 
> These posts without evidence are merely opinions - nothing more. Before having a dig at other keepers, please feel free to support those opinions of yours with evidence that an enclosure with a more "natural" appearance is beneficial to our animals and in what ways. If racking systems are so detrimental, please also provide evidence to support these claims.
> 
> An argument is an absolute waste of time if no one can support any of their claims.


 
Exactly right. This argument is right up there with my dad can beat up your dad. Let's take it to the next level, who or what the hell do we think we are keeping "wild animals" in captivity? It serves no purpose to keep snakes in captivity other than to satisfy the need of the ego to identify with an item or activity to add validity to one's existence. No this is not a shot at anyone in particular, I keep wild, wide ranging animals in boxes too. 

As long as your animals needs, all of them, are met, tubs or avaiaries are irrelevant. Of course I don't think retics in 8' x 4' x 1' tubs is particualrilty crash hot, I do believe following the (QLD relevant) "Captive reptile and amphibian Code of Practice" http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/register/p00061aa.pdf will give your wild animals as good a life as any other captive system. Barring the massive outdoor pits of course, but that is something different again!


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## Wookie (Jan 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Body heat is one thing.
> These people have very different attitude. They perceive their snakes as units / items / product, anything but wild animals. Some argue that reptiles born in captivity know no better, so it's OK to keep them in small plastic boxes. They do survive, they even breed. With the exception of mass production reptile farmers, I will never understand how can these people derive any pleasure from having reptile collections. Efficiency and easy maintenance seems to be the key word. Where is the sense in keeping large number of animals in such conditions? On many occasions I have been accused of "breeding for profit", I challenge those keepers / breeders any time - what are they in for?
> Each to their own but I could never degrade reptiles, not even domestic animals to that level.


 
I'm with you man. It kinda irks me. Just doesn't seem right to keep them in those conditions :/. At least I keep mine happy, they have more than they know to do with!


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## -Matt- (Jan 14, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> At least I keep mine happy, they have more than they know to do with!



But how do you know that they are happy?


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## thals (Jan 14, 2011)

hornet said:


> it seems to me that alot of people dont realize that snakes dont care if they dont have a nice fake back ground, an attractive substrate, an attractive substrate. As long as the snake gets what it needs, food, heat, water, shelter they are happy. Is it just me or are we seeing the new generation of "beardie breast feeders" here lol


 
Agreed, snakes don't generally seem to be as fussy as their owners. Also too big an area isn't always better anyway, so long as it can regulate it's body temps, feeds and isn't poked and prodded too often it'll be happy and healthy!


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## Wookie (Jan 14, 2011)

MDSTIM said:


> G'day,
> This topic seems to come up every so often and raises a few questions that I thought worth posting -:
> 1. I wonder how people that only have a couple of snakes expect others with more to keep them....what "wall to wall" enclosures ?
> 2. What does anyone that has breeding snakes keep their hatchies in as they reach selling age, and also if they keep some what do they grow them out in ?
> 3. What are click clacks that a lot of people keep their snakes in ?....if not a "mobile" rack system ?


 
My opinion. Not having a go at keepers who use racks. 
1. For adult snakes, yes. I guess its the price you pay for choosing to have so many snakes eh? You choose to have that many so you should be prepared to house them.
2. I personally don't have qualms with the click clack. It is a perfect, cost effective way to house your reptile until it reaches a size where you can move it to an adult sized enclosure. However (for me) this is only a temporary home, not a life-long domicile. In my personal opinion I don't think it does a beautiful snake justice to keep it in a plastic box for the entirety of its life.
3. Pretty much as above. Click clacks are great... for a snake too small to put in an adult size enclosure.

---------- Post added 14-Jan-11 at 09:23 PM ----------




xxMelissaxx said:


> These posts without evidence are merely opinions - nothing more. Before having a dig at other keepers, please feel free to support those opinions of yours with evidence that an enclosure with a more "natural" appearance is beneficial to our animals and in what ways. If racking systems are so detrimental, please also provide evidence to support these claims.


 
My way of looking at it is that my enclosure, is a box in a rack... other than it has more than a rack offers. I'm not saying a rack is detrimental but I believe the enclosure offers a more realistic environment with more stimulus and I can't see a way of that being worse for a reptile.

---------- Post added 14-Jan-11 at 09:24 PM ----------




-Matt- said:


> But how do you know that they are happy?


 
Because I'm happy keeping them in it


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## whyme (Jan 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Common guys, wake up! Laboratory mice and rats are not wildlife, they couldn't survive in natural environment for a week. Having said that, I have been involved in keeping / breeding native rodents as part of my studies for many years and my animals were always kept in landscaped, natural surroundings (as much as possible).
> Snakes are not laboratory animals - get real !!!!!!!


Captive bred snakes are not wildlife either! And some snakes are lab animals for a good reason, and we keep them all in rack systems, and they are in perfect health!


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## hornet (Jan 14, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Because I'm happy keeping them in it


 
that is a perfect example of how keeping them in these fancy natural looking enclosures isnt for the animals benefit, its for the owners. Do you really think the snakes care? They are not people, they are not attracted to "pretty" things, as long as the basic needs are met they are going to be just fine


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## cadwallader (Jan 14, 2011)

i think it also come down to why we keep our reptiles, if the keeper only has them to breed then small racks will be perfect for them. but for people like me i prefer seeing my animals climb around on the fake walls and over all the plants and for me it is the best most enjoyable way to keep reptiles...


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## Wookie (Jan 14, 2011)

hornet said:


> that is a perfect example of how keeping them in these fancy natural looking enclosures isnt for the animals benefit, its for the owners. Do you really think the snakes care? They are not people, they are not attracted to "pretty" things, as long as the basic needs are met they are going to be just fine


 
You cannot say that for sure. Nobody can say either way for sure. Do you agree on that?


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## imported_Varanus (Jan 14, 2011)

Interesting thread; here's my contribution. I have a large male RBB that is housed in a 4x2x2. When I can and while I'm present, I open the cage for an hour or so (usually while I'm on here) and he has free range of our basement, a 10x5 metre room, full of furniture, packing boxes, etc. So, plenty of places to hide and yet, you guessed it, I always find him back in his cage, after he's had a bit of a hunt around, of course . If i forget to let him out when he knows I'm downstairs, he constantly taps on the glass until I oblige! Perhaps it's the heated hide box that does it? 

Having said that, I would like to offer my snakes a lockable,"sunning enclosure" outside at some stage.


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## hornet (Jan 14, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> You cannot say that for sure. Nobody can say either way for sure. Do you agree on that?


 
it seems you lot can say for sure that your way of keeping is better for the animal. Honestly as long as the basic needs are met how can it be bad for the animal?


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## Jay84 (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't understand the mentality of the people against racks...... my tub racks are bigger than most conventional melamine enclosures! 

So what..... are you better for keeping your antaresia in a 2 foot enclosure? Or me keeping them in my 3 foot tub?!?!? Who's snakes are going to be happier? seriously. 

Just because people keep animals in racks, does not mean they have to be cramped and unable to move....... just because people keep their animals in the more conventional melamine enclosure, does not mean they are more spacious than a tub!


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## Wookie (Jan 14, 2011)

hornet said:


> it seems you lot can say for sure that your way of keeping is better for the animal. Honestly as long as the basic needs are met how can it be bad for the animal?


 
I have never said that? Don't read between the lines hornet. I expressed my opinion. I never declared fact. Also, I must reiterate as you seemed to have missed it. I didn't say it was bad for the animal. I said in my OPINION I THINK that it is BETTER to have a decked out, spacious enclosure. Not saying that tubs are bad, just that enclosures are better IMO.


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## MontePython (Jan 14, 2011)

This arguement is a common one amongst pet owners of all descriptions. 
Beta (fighting fish) breeders have their fish Jared, every day hobyests give them a conventional tank. Dog and cat breeders use Aviaries etc.etc Its all part and parcel of the individual hobbys and those that breed Fish, Snakes or even Dogs and Cats have the right to house them as best they can to produce the numbers of animals demanded BY the Hobbyests. Without whom (The Breeders) we would have few if any animal related hobbys in this country. It seems in most animal related Hobbys it is the actions of the few that keep the hobby going. 
In no way does owning alot of animals of the same species and housing them in acceptable areas, jars, containers or tanks deter from the health, hapiness and enjoyment of keeping and breeding the species in question.

My 2c...


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## giggle (Jan 14, 2011)

Well... I don't think it was specifically_ any_ rack system... but more specifically the fact that some such as snakebytes have enormous snakes in enclosures... racking systems... where they can barely move. I mean that big one was jammed in there. Are you telling me that you all agree with that?

I may not be experienced, but I am certain the ability to exercise to at least some degree is one very important basic keeping essential. An animal that can do nothing more than recoil itself in a slightly different position is not going to have good muscle tone. 
Certainly is the most basic of keeping requirements. 

I have seen a lot of your racking and tub enclosures over my time here and although you all seem to be taking offense to the mention of 'racks' none of you fit into the category I think this thread was meant... that is those that put snakes in small containers. I haven't seen any of you with small tubs or racks. And I am certain you would all put your animals in appropriately sized tubs to fit them, so they can move and reposition comfortably. Even having the ability to climb in most cases. 

The snakes shown on snakebytes did not even have the ability to lift their heads higher than their body. 

While it may not be essential to their survival... and they can live long lives while feeding and breeding still... it seems like my snakes appreciate/enjoy/like the ability to move and to climb. 

And a dog, a cat, a bird, a rat... a human... can be put in a tiny cage where they can do nothing but turn around for its entire life... and live a long time while still eating and continuing to breed. 
Take from that what you will.

---------- Post added 14-Jan-11 at 10:44 PM ----------




MontePython said:


> This arguement is a common one amongst pet owners of all descriptions.
> Beta (fighting fish) breeders have their fish Jared, every day hobyests give them a conventional tank. Dog and cat breeders use Aviaries etc.etc Its all part and parcel of the individual hobbys and those that breed Fish, Snakes or even Dogs and Cats have the right to house them as best they can to produce the numbers of animals demanded BY the Hobbyests. Without whom (The Breeders) we would have few if any animal related hobbys in this country. It seems in most animal related Hobbys it is the actions of the few that keep the hobby going.
> In no way does owning alot of animals of the same species and housing them in acceptable areas, jars, containers or tanks deter from the health, hapiness and enjoyment of keeping and breeding the species in question.
> 
> My 2c...



MontePython... I've bred dogs for a long time. I have never housed dogs in aviaries :| And anyone that did would be looked down on very harshly by the entire hobby. Those are what we call puppy farmers... and they are a disgusting blight on the hobby. I knew someone that did... and she had all her animals confiscated by the RSPCA.
My dogs... and those of most I know... were kept inside my house. They had their own room. They had free roam of the yard. They were toilet trained and looked after as pets first. And being a hobby, it was not about making money.
Yet the most sophisticated of breeders do not need to produce large numbers, rather producing quality animals that command a higher price for what they represent. 
Those that expand their numbers have kennels and once again... those with cramped or dirty conditions are looked down upon. A lot of the dog hobby is based around how well you keep your animals... in fact it is essential... as showing a dog is at least 60% presentation... and a dog with a dirty or damaged coat will be laughed out of the ring.


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## MontePython (Jan 14, 2011)

Maybe i should have worded that last sentance acceptably sized for the animal??

Im new here and have been watching this thread with interest. There is a thread like this on most animal forums i am on and it is always good to see the differing opinions from both sides, Hobbyests/Breeders/Collecters. I think the greatest information can be gained by looking at both sides and basically decide for ones self the methods of housing they prefer. Housing needs to be practical to the numbers of species and animals kept. With cleaning and maintenance time workable to peoples buisy lives. 

I would hate to think the Bare tanks i use to raise fish fry were frowned apon by planted tank keepers because it wasnt natural enough...


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## brayden49 (Jan 15, 2011)

Thank you for clearing that up.
The thread was originally started about some videos i seen on youtube of a particular breeder.
I dont know why some people that keep there snakes in racks got defensive.
This thread wasn't specifically_ any_ rack system but more specifically the racks
that snakebytes uses.
I am certain everyone on aps keeps their animals in appropriately sized tubs.


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## Grogshla (Jan 15, 2011)

they should be kept in small enclosures when they are young yes. But i like to give proper room for all my reptiles. When i get my wheatbelt in a few weeks i will do the same. Get him big and strong whilst he is in a small click clack then move him onto a nice size appropriate wooden enclosure. 
Reptiles deserve a good quality of life in my eyes


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## Jay84 (Jan 15, 2011)

brayden49 said:


> The thread was originally started about some videos i seen on youtube of a particular breeder.
> I dont know why some people that keep there snakes in racks got defensive.
> This thread wasn't specifically_ any_ rack system but more specifically the racks
> that snakebytes uses.
> I am certain everyone on aps keeps their animals in appropriately sized tubs.



Maybe you should have made this clear at the beginning of this thread? It seemed to me and everyone else you were blanketing all rack keepers the same.

I know there are certain people who have contributed to this thread that judge those for keeping in racks of any size.




---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 08:09 AM ----------




Grogshla said:


> Get him big and strong whilst he is in a small click clack then move him onto a nice size appropriate wooden enclosure.
> Reptiles deserve a good quality of life in my eyes



So what size ''appropriate wooden enclosure'' will you be housing your wheatbelt in as an adult?


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## hornet (Jan 15, 2011)

MontePython said:


> This arguement is a common one amongst pet owners of all descriptions.
> Beta (fighting fish) breeders have their fish Jared, every day hobyests give them a conventional tank.


 
i thought i would add this, Fighting fish breeders do not jar their fish, its the pet shops and wholesalers that jar the fish. Its only really acceptable for temporary accommodation. Fishing fish breeders house their fish in tanks with filtration like you would any other fish although the tank size is normally alot smaller because of the the conditions these fish have evolved to cope with. Most beta breeders actually use live plants with their breeders


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## Grogshla (Jan 15, 2011)

So what size ''appropriate wooden enclosure'' will you be housing your wheatbelt in as an adult? [/QUOTE]

3x1.5x1.5 no need to get smart mate. I just like to house my favourite reps in display enclosures. . I have racks also so don't get me wrong


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Agreed. I use racking systems for a lot of my animals and I certainly don't feel as though I am "degrading" my animals in any way. They all have ample space, perches etc. All their needs are taken care of.
> 
> These posts without evidence are merely opinions - nothing more. Before having a dig at other keepers, please feel free to support those opinions of yours with evidence that an enclosure with a more "natural" appearance is beneficial to our animals and in what ways. If racking systems are so detrimental, please also provide evidence to support these claims.
> 
> An argument is an absolute waste of time if no one can support any of their claims.



Melissa, no one said that keeping reptiles in small plastic boxes is detrimental to them. It's a matter aesthetics and the keeper's reason for keeping reptiles in the first place. Imagine going to the zoo and seeing snakes on display on newspaper, etc.. I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 10:15 AM ----------

Somebody said the magic word - "stimulus". Undeniably, reptiles kept in large, landscapes enclosures (periodically changed) or outdoor pits are more active and that alone has to be good for them if nothing else.


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## RELLIK81 (Jan 15, 2011)

i agree to a point with the OP....i dont mind when people use tubs...i am currently using 80 litre bells tubs for a pair of tanami woma pythns, a yearling BHP and a spotted python...all of the snakes have PLENTY of room to move around......but big snakes like burms and retics i think need to be in appropriate sized enclosures.....

i am however starting to get a bit bored with using the tubs......i mean dont get me wrong...they are cheaper to run with housing 4 snakes and only using 80 watts of power....but you dont get to see the snake unless you open the tub up.....i might end up making some enclosures for them in the future and use the tubs for quarantining purposes instead...


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## cadwallader (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.
> 
> Very Well said


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## MontePython (Jan 15, 2011)

hornet said:


> i thought i would add this, Fighting fish breeders do not jar their fish, its the pet shops and wholesalers that jar the fish. Its only really acceptable for temporary accommodation. Fishing fish breeders house their fish in tanks with filtration like you would any other fish although the tank size is normally alot smaller because of the the conditions these fish have evolved to cope with. Most beta breeders actually use live plants with their breeders



Dont know how many Beta breeders you know but i (when i bred them several thousand fish mind you) and several other largish breeders i know here in NSW jar their fish some use beanie boxes with filtration but most are jared with daily waterchanges especially the juveniles when they start to become agressive. I used 1-1.2L containers. There is really no other way to keep them in large numbers and grow them to saleable size.


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## Jay84 (Jan 15, 2011)

Grogshla said:


> So what size ''appropriate wooden enclosure'' will you be housing your wheatbelt in as an adult?



3x1.5x1.5 no need to get smart mate. I just like to house my favourite reps in display enclosures. . I have racks also so don't get me wrong[/QUOTE]

So this is what i dont understand.... mine are kept in racks 3x2 foot. Are my snakes less happy for this housing?!?!?!?!


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## hornet (Jan 15, 2011)

mind you the breeders i know are more hobbyist breeders not commercial breeders but they still produce many hundreds of fish, they mainly keep them in custom made divided tanks

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 12:49 AM ----------




Jay84 said:


> 3x1.5x1.5 no need to get smart mate. I just like to house my favourite reps in display enclosures. . I have racks also so don't get me wrong


 
So this is what i dont understand.... mine are kept in racks 3x2 foot. Are my snakes less happy for this housing?!?!?!?![/QUOTE]

yes because snakes dont like to be in a plain enclosure, they like colors and textures and pretty things


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## Jay84 (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.




I know you say we don't all have to agree with your point of view, and likewise i am not asking anyone to agree with mine. But, because i keep my snakes in tubs (large ones), you are saying i am not a snake lover/enthusiast? I will let you know, i don't breed my snakes, i never have done. So can not be classed as a snake farmer. Also, i only have 11 snakes, not a huge collection.

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 11:55 AM ----------




hornet said:


> yes because snakes dont like to be in a plain enclosure, they like colors and textures and pretty things


 
lol.... don't worry Hornet, i play classical music to them in the evening, i also sing and dance to them when i have the time. They love it!


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## hornet (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I know you say we don't all have to agree with your point of view, and likewise i am not asking anyone to agree with mine. But, because i keep my snakes in tubs (large ones), you are saying i am not a snake lover/enthusiast? I will let you know, i don't breed my snakes, i never have done. So can not be classed as a snake farmer. Also, i only have 11 snakes, not a huge collection.
> 
> ---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 11:55 AM ----------
> 
> ...


 
they seem to have a strong preference for interpretative dance, not big hip hop fans


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay, don't take it personally. I used 'snake farmer' as a loose example, people keeping elapids for milking, zoo reptiles in off-limits areas, reptile exhibitors, and others keep their reptiles in tubs or similar enclosures. I can see the reason for it in those circumstances but I can't see what pleasure can a hobbyist have from ..... no need to repeat what I said already. That's my opinion, that's how I see it, don't hold it against me. I have a collection of snake skulls and a collection of antique shotguns. if I couldn't see it and admire it every time I walk pass, I would get rid of it. Can you understand my point of view?


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## Australis (Jan 15, 2011)

Grogshla said:


> they should be kept in small enclosures when they are young yes. But i like to give proper room for all my reptiles. When i get my wheatbelt in a few weeks i will do the same.* Get him big and strong whilst he is in a small click clack *then move him onto a nice size appropriate wooden enclosure.
> Reptiles deserve a good quality of life in my eyes



Im going to keep a few Antaresia in tubs indefinitely turning them into giant limbless hulks.

Antaresia like ball pythons are just so well suited to being kept in tubs.


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

Australis said:


> Antaresia like ball pythons are just so well suited to being kept in tubs.



That's an interesting statement. Based on research? If that's so, adders, keelbacks and any other small grown-dwelling species would be well suited for tubs. Why not?


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## cadwallader (Jan 15, 2011)

they are suited to being kept in tubs as they are to being in a "display tank" its just how the keeper want to keep them... the overall point EVERYONE is making (either tubs or enclosures) they need room to move ect i would keep in tubs if i had more reps but i only have a few hence the nice big enclosures... but if i was to keep in tubs i would not get rid of the big displays and the tubs would be decked out with all the logs plants ect...


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## Grogshla (Jan 15, 2011)

i don't think any1 is saying that it's bad to keep snakes in proper sized tubs. This is fine. I think people just get a little upset when they see reptiles kept in what seems to be small rack like enclosures even though that these racks might be of minimum requirement therefore adequate to house these animals. I think they are not angry at the housing or heat just that they want reptiles to have a bit more room. Thats how i interpret this all.


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

So, is "stimulus" beneficial for our captive snakes, is it essential or not important at all? Enough room for the animal to move around is one thing, to provide the animal with something that will spark some interest, activity, relieve boredom (if there is such thing in reptiles), is another. 
I see that most, if not all Boyds and other lizard keepers have them in landscaped enclosures - why not snakes? Are snakes that much less energetic than lizards? 
What are your thoughts on that?


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## Grogshla (Jan 15, 2011)

not at all mate. I totally agree and would love to see snakes in big exciting enclosures. This is my school of thought. Not everyone can do this though due to size restrictions or finances.


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## carterd (Jan 15, 2011)

We will always justifiy ourselves keeping snakes in tubs.
Will it be excepted if i keep a cat it a tub?


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## Australis (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> That's an interesting statement. Based on research?



Just personal opinion, derived from my own experiences/observations.



Waterrat said:


> If that's so, adders, keelbacks and any other small grown-dwelling species would be well suited for tubs. Why not?



Sure, i would put adders in the same category as Antaresia & balls for rack/tub suitability. Keelbacks aren't as comparable obviously.
At the end of the day a "tub" is a plastic box, and the majority of people are keeping snakes in boxes. 
I think breeding FOR neuro disorders in animals is far more of a concern than what someones housing preference is.

Not sure what the "why not?" is asking.


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## brayden49 (Jan 15, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Maybe you should have made this clear at the beginning of this thread? It seemed to me and everyone else you were blanketing all rack keepers the same.
> 
> I know there are certain people who have contributed to this thread that judge those for keeping in racks of any size.
> 
> ...


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

brayden49 said:


> Jay84;1865103I know there are certain people who have contributed to this thread that judge those for keeping in racks of any size.[COLOR=DarkGray said:
> 
> 
> > So what is your contribution to this thread?


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## cadwallader (Jan 15, 2011)

that was his contribution to the thread...


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## Snake-Supplies (Jan 15, 2011)

I know this will be deleted cause you cant name and shame...

but have you seen Upmarket pets in Melbourne?
Same deal, the poor bredli I had a look at didn't want to go back, it struck at us when we were trying to put it back, not getting it out.

I dislike it, the conditions we have on the licence I'm pretty sure would no agree with the way they are kept.

the bredli was my arm length minus the hand and the talk was as long as mu foot, and maybe half as wide again.


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## Jay84 (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> That's my opinion, that's how I see it, don't hold it against me. I have a collection of snake skulls and a collection of antique shotguns. if I couldn't see it and admire it every time I walk pass, I would get rid of it. Can you understand my point of view?


I certainly can and do understand your point of view Michael. I am just saying that you can not say i love my animals less than you because i keep them in (large) tubs. I work ALOT so am not home to view animals in a big display enclosure, also if i had every animal in a large display enclosure i would not be able to keep the few species i have chosen to. Every night though i am in my spare room, cleaning, feeding, handling. I can assure you there are members on this site that even think i am slightly crazy with how much time i spend with my animals lol


Waterrat said:


> brayden49 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay84;1865103I know there are certain people who have contributed to this thread that judge those for keeping in racks of any size.[COLOR=DarkGray said:
> ...


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> the bredli was my arm length minus the hand and the talk was as long as mu foot, and maybe half as wide again.



You got me there Josh. :shock:

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 12:24 PM ----------

Sorry Jay, I thought it was Brayden's comment, I didn't realise he quoted you.


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## brayden49 (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> brayden49 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay84;1865103I know there are certain people who have contributed to this thread that judge those for keeping in racks of any size.[COLOR=DarkGray said:
> ...


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## Australis (Jan 15, 2011)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> Same deal, the poor bredli I had a look at *didn't want to go back*, it struck at us when we were trying to put it back, not getting it out.



Come on lol
When i remove a snake from a tub and it strikes me, would you conclude it doesnt want to me removed from its tub-topia?


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

It's starting to get messy, can we move on?

Is anyone prepared to comment on my previous post:

So, is "stimulus" beneficial for our captive snakes, is it essential or not important at all? Enough room for the animal to move around is one thing, to provide the animal with something that will spark some interest, activity, relieve boredom (if there is such thing in reptiles), is another. 
I see that most, if not all Boyds and other lizard keepers have them in landscaped enclosures - why not snakes? Are snakes that much less energetic than lizards? 
What are your thoughts on that?


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## Snake-Supplies (Jan 15, 2011)

Australis said:


> Come on lol
> When i remove a snake from a tub and it strikes me, would you conclude it doesnt want to me removed from its tub-topia?



no, I would assume it wants to be left alone.
I also know that alot of snakes are cage defensive.

It couldn't wait to get out, we picked it up, handled it for about 4-5 minutes, without a hassle, the first thing it did was stretch out on my arm.

If you think it's funny, let me lock you up in a small tub.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT WOULD BE SOOO FUNNYYYYYY =D

I think tubs are fine, AS LONG AS the snake is getting what it needs which includes space.


The size was not sufficient enough,


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## hornet (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> It's starting to get messy, can we move on?
> 
> Is anyone prepared to comment on my previous post:
> 
> ...


 
From what i have seen most tubs and more natural looking enclosures generally have the same basics, hide, perch, heat, space. The main difference being what they are made out of ie natural looking fake rock hide vs cardboard hide. Neither of those 2 enclosure types provide what i would really call stimulus. As you know snakes are fairly "lazy", they are ambush predators so most of their time is spent either waiting for food or digesting a meal, they are a totally different animal to most lizards which are active predators and many have some kind of social structure and interact with others so comparing the way snakes are housed compared to the way lizards are housed is like comparing apples to oranges


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

Apples & oranges, hmmmm. Have you seen Boyds in the wild? They sit on a tree trunks for hours waiting for insects to get within their reach. They are as solitary as snakes and being thermoconformers, they don't move in and out of sun spots. 

"generally the same basics"? That's a bit of generalization Paul.


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## cadwallader (Jan 15, 2011)

wow that enclosure is amazing no one can say that a snake would prefer to live in that then a plain tubs, also i would look at the tub for a minute i could look at that for hours


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## Wookie (Jan 15, 2011)

hornet said:


> yes because snakes dont like to be in a plain enclosure, they like colors and textures and pretty things


 
You say that like it is ridiculous to imagine? I know birds like toys and things to chew or climb on in their cages. Why not snakes. I know for one that my snake likes exploring every inch of her enclosure. Always camping out somewhere different. Ledges on the fake wall, in her hides, on her branches and vines, in/on her substrate. I know she would survive in a tub, with newspaper a bowl and a cardboard box. I try to imitate their natural environment. We need a two tailed randomised controlled trial with both wild caught and captive bred specimens. See which they choose to crawl into when put side by side. Or do we think/know that snakes aren't smart enough to make an informed decision and will just randomly choose one or the other?

Dogs are perfectly healthy if they aren't given toys to play with but I reckon they are happier when they have their toys. Personally I don't think the argument of health factors into this. Its more about enrichment of the environment. Which is ambiguous. Because nobody knows the intelligence of a snake.


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## cadwallader (Jan 15, 2011)

i have tried this i had 2 hides next to each other both exactly the same, but one had newspaper and one had aspen bedding and i never saw him in the newspaper one so i swapped the hides around even thought they were the same and still he moved to the aspen so fluffy doesnt like newspaper as much as aspen.... imo


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## Wookie (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Apples & oranges, hmmmm. Have you seen Boyds in the wild? They sit on a tree trunks for hours waiting for insects to get within their reach. They are as solitary as snakes and being thermoconformers, they don't move in and out of sun spots.
> 
> "generally the same basics"? That's a bit of generalization Paul.


 
Those ferns real Michael?


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## -Katana- (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Apples & oranges, hmmmm. Have you seen Boyds in the wild? They sit on a tree trunks for hours waiting for insects to get within their reach. They are as solitary as snakes and being thermoconformers, they don't move in and out of sun spots.
> 
> "generally the same basics"? That's a bit of generalization Paul.



WOW!!
I have always been struck by your enclosures and the effort you put into providing a natural environment for your animals.
May I be cheeky and ask the dimensions of that enclosure and how long your python is.

Thanks,
Akwendi.


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## cris (Jan 15, 2011)

I think one thing to keep in mind is that many snakes like to be in small secure areas where they cant be seen, there are exceptions obviously. Some snakes are well suited to display enclosures, but its much harder to provide a good healthy environment and with many species you wont see them unless you force them to bask in the open.

I would prefer to have all my snakes in $800+ display enclosures, but an $8 tub does the job just as well from the snakes POV. On the subject of providing stimulus there is no differance between a tub and a display enclosure although many display enclosures would do a better job of stimulating stress if not carefully designed. I make no apologies for not spending money when it makes no differance to the snakes well being.

As far as keeping rats in tubs, i think its as bad as the worst examples of intensive farming. I wouldnt ever keep rats in tubs, although 200l+ tubs would be OK. One should keep in mind that rats are smart, extremely active and social animals, while most snakes are stupid solitary animals that are fairly inactive and require much less space.


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## hornet (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Apples & oranges, hmmmm. Have you seen Boyds in the wild? They sit on a tree trunks for hours waiting for insects to get within their reach. They are as solitary as snakes and being thermoconformers, they don't move in and out of sun spots.
> 
> "generally the same basics"? That's a bit of generalization Paul.


 Sorry that comment was a bit off topic when talking about boyds, as you said they too are a ambush predator that primarily lives a solitary life which is common for most of the larger lizards. Whilst yes most keepers keep boyds and angle heads in a more landscaped enclosure but they could be kept just as easily in a more basic setup aswell, i dont believe it to be essential to landscape an enclosure. I dont see that comment as a generalization. Both basic and landscaped enclosures typically have the same thing, perches, hides, lighting, heating etc, just different materials and objects are used to fulfill those purposes to give a more natural or artificial look. Even with the more interactive lizards i do not believe a landscaped enclosure to be essential. It all comes down to the keeper and what they want and i dont believe they are any better or worse in either housing style

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 03:53 AM ----------




Waterrat said:


> That's a bit of generalization Paul.


 
oh and my names not paul


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## giggle (Jan 15, 2011)

While snakes might like to spend a good portion of their time in tight confined and secure areas... at night they like to become active also... and move around... perhaps they enjoy exploring and enjoy hunting. They may even enjoy chasing their food. I pretend the dead animals I feed my snakes are alive... wiggle them around and provide a bit of excitement for them. my diamond chases. I think especially for lazy bum diamonds, activity is important.

Waterrat... I like to think that stimulus is as important as having hides... allowing them as natural as possible activity level is as important as allowing them a secure place to retreat. My snakes have a big enough enclosure to move about and explore. They also have secure hides. At night, whether they are hungry or not... they come out and adventure around their enclosure. 
Some birds also nest in hollows of trees... but it does not mean they want to spend their entire life in a box they can barely turn in.
So to answer your question... although I am a novice and my opinion is less likely the one sort  ... stimulus is a basic keeping essential. It doesn't have to be in the form of pretty enclosures... but perhaps in the form of climbing facilities... snakes seem sensitive to touch... perhaps different textured objects even could provide an interesting stimulation for them.


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## Minka (Jan 15, 2011)

hornet said:


> From what i have seen most tubs and more natural looking enclosures generally have the same basics, hide, perch, heat, space. The main difference being what they are made out of ie natural looking fake rock hide vs cardboard hide. Neither of those 2 enclosure types provide what i would really call stimulus. As you know snakes are fairly "lazy", they are ambush predators so most of their time is spent either waiting for food or digesting a meal, they are a totally different animal to most lizards which are active predators and many have some kind of social structure and interact with others so comparing the way snakes are housed compared to the way lizards are housed is like comparing apples to oranges




Seeing as you used the generalized term of "snakes" and I'm sure you obviously meant "pythons" in saying that right? Because surely you cannot group the fast moving elapids who are active hunters (excluding death adders) as "lazy"? Have you ever seen a large taipan confined to even the 'largest' tubs? Or a RBB rubbing it's rostral scales almost completely off in an attempt to escape one of the small ventilation holes drilled into a tub? I know some of the more larger elapid keepers will disagree with me (if they have such a fondness for keeping all there elapids in tubs) but I have seen the above first hand and couldn't help but feel sorry for the animals. I should add I am no beardie breast feeder by the way and anyone who knows me personally can attest to that but I really don't feel you can group all snakes as a "one size fits all". I choose to keep large amounts of Morelia, Bhp's and Olive pythons. I also choose to supply them with large spacious enclosures thus having wall to wall cages. I also choose to keep most of my animals on paper for many reasons. Having said that I also keep some animals in tubs such as smaller Antaresia, animals I'm growing out, Adders, hatchlings etc. One thing all my animals have in common though is that they are all provided with ample space, hides, heat, and perches. Tubs have there place but as has been previously stated this thread I believe was started in relation to the way SnakeBytes keep there animals which I believe is completely unnecessary unless you are farming snakes.


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## redbellybite (Jan 15, 2011)

Well I am one of those ''****s'' that keep snakes in tubs ...you know the type now ,no pretty things like fake plants and fancy smancy water dishes etc ..just plain ole boring breeders choice for substrate ,plastic plain water dish and some plumbing pipes for hides ,,,such a bastard I am ...

I use to have a good enclosure for my big fella ,it got busted in a move and I got him a big tub ..which at the time was only going to be a temp situation,because I felt sad that he wouldnt like living in his tub ,then I moved into my smaller place and had no room and in all honesty it hasnt bothered him either ,he sheds perfect,he eats really well and he is growing fantastic ,he now is almost 8 feet long ,I get him out for stretches and movement ,which he loves but over all when he has had enough he likes going back to his security tub ...I honestly believe its more for the human desire then the snakes when putting them in fancy done up eye candy enclosures ,which if you have the space and money to do this go for it ..but dont be pointing the bad finger at anyone that houses thiers different from you ...I HAVE SEEN SNAKES IN GREAT ENCLOSURES THAT ARE NOT CARED FOR CORRECTLY ...but thats ok it looks pretty now


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## Wookie (Jan 15, 2011)

cris said:


> Some snakes are well suited to display enclosures, but its much harder to provide a good healthy environment.
> 
> I disagree, spot cleaning, and an occasional complete change of bedding. Barely different at all to cleaning newspaper
> 
> ...



Both have their place. But I know which I prefer


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## cris (Jan 15, 2011)

If someone can reproduce suitable habitat a display enclosure is going to be better, what i was trying to point out is that many people especially new keepers know SFA about trying to set up enlosures like this in a way that suits the snake. If you are keeping it in a suitable size tub it is far easier and cheaper with much less room for error.

I definately prefer display enclosures, but that is due to it looking better in my eye rather than the snakes wellbeing. I agree with what Waterat has said on this part of the topic about why people are keeping snakes etc. If i cant get around to making display enclosure for many of my reptiles within the 20-100 years they live for i would feel pretty stupid. Its just that im content to just look after the animals needs untill im able to make better looking enclosures so that my eyes can be more happy.


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## Wookie (Jan 15, 2011)

cris said:


> If someone can reproduce suitable habitat a display enclosure is going to be better, what i was trying to point out is that many people especially new keepers know SFA about trying to set up enlosures like this in a way that suits the snake. If you are keeping it in a suitable size tub it is far easier and cheaper with much less room for error.
> 
> I definately prefer display enclosures, but that is due to it looking better in my eye rather than the snakes wellbeing. I agree with what Waterat has said on this part of the topic about why people are keeping snakes etc. If i cant get around to making display enclosure for many of my reptiles within the 20-100 years they live for i would feel pretty stupid. Its just that im content to just look after the animals needs untill im able to make better looking enclosures so that my eyes can be more happy.


 
Well said


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> WOW!!
> I have always been struck by your enclosures and the effort you put into providing a natural environment for your animals.
> May I be cheeky and ask the dimensions of that enclosure and how long your python is.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the compliment. The enclosure is 4' long. the woody stuff is real and all the plants artificial. As you can see, I changed it a bit (I call it enrichment), added some vertical lianas and horizontal perches and I also changed the snakes. These two are about a metre long.
I put those vertical lianas there because I thought it would look cool but surprise, this girl adopted them for perching, she camped on them like that for 4 days then she went to another spot. Exciting?


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## itbites (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Melissa, no one said that keeping reptiles in small plastic boxes is detrimental to them. It's a matter aesthetics and the keeper's reason for keeping reptiles in the first place. Imagine going to the zoo and seeing snakes on display on newspaper, etc.. I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.
> 
> ---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 10:15 AM ----------
> 
> Somebody said the magic word - "stimulus". Undeniably, reptiles kept in large, landscapes enclosures (periodically changed) or outdoor pits are more active and that alone has to be good for them if nothing else.





I couldn't agree more with this statement!
And at the end of the day they are not items of clothing or collectibles to be stowed away, 
they are living breathing creatures that require ample space to roam & explore.

I couldn't see myself wanting to house ANY animal permanently in a plastic box regardless of the dimensions.
What would be the point in keeping an animal that you cannot see,enjoy etc?...
Also a big part of the hobby for certain enthusiasts, 
is the enjoyment you get by replicating the reptiles natural environment as closely as possible.

This is just my opinion, I don't think that those housing in tubs are cruel or neglecting
their animals needs/health.
I just feel that as a keeper I prefer naturalistic habitats, because that's just what I enjoy most about keeping.


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## hornet (Jan 15, 2011)

yes i will confirm this is all in relation to pythons, whist elapids are ambush predators they are alot more active and should be provided with space as such but thats what i have been saying all along, as long as they are provided adequate space, heat, shelter and perches (for arboreal species) then i dont believe they NEED to have a fancy background and naturalistic substrate and fake rock hides etc. I will also say i have a shockingly slow internet connection so i havent been able to see exactly what snakebytes keep theirs in but it seems this turned quite rapidly into a "tubs are bad" thread. As others have asked, how is a 3x2 tub any worse then a 3x1.5 wooden enclosure decked out to look appealing to the human eye? I am in no way saying natural landscaped enclosures are bad (many of you know that i love a nice well built display enclosure), all i am saying is that as long as their needs are met how can they be any worse for the snakes then tubs?


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## thecat (Jan 15, 2011)

hornet said:


> yes i will confirm this is all in relation to pythons, whist elapids are ambush predators they are alot more active and should be provided with space as such but thats what i have been saying all along, as long as they are provided adequate space, heat, shelter and perches (for arboreal species) then i dont believe they NEED to have a fancy background and naturalistic substrate and fake rock hides etc. I will also say i have a shockingly slow internet connection so i havent been able to see exactly what snakebytes keep theirs in but it seems this turned quite rapidly into a "tubs are bad" thread.


 
The origial post clearly said "plastic containers *with not much room to move around*". The large tub advocates seem to take that as an attack on all tubs. It then turned to a quality of life/stimuli argument. It would be nice to hear from the experts in snake behaviour to get their opinions on what pythons need, if anything over and above food, water and heat to have quality of life.


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

thecat said:


> if anything over and above food, water and heat to have quality of life.


 

First, we would have to define "quality of life" in snake's terms. Any snake psychologists out there?
One thing I can say, an interesting, variable, heterogenous environment (in captivity) stimulates snake behaviour. There is no doubt in my mind.


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## -Katana- (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Thanks for the compliment. The enclosure is 4' long. the woody stuff is real and all the plants artificial. As you can see, I changed it a bit (I call it enrichment), added some vertical lianas and horizontal perches and I also changed the snakes. These two are about a metre long.
> I put those vertical lianas there because I thought it would look cool but surprise, this girl adopted them for perching, she camped on them like that for 4 days then she went to another spot. Exciting?


 
Hell yes!
It's a win/win for both keeper and snake.
Thank you for the reply.


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## assadassa (Jan 15, 2011)

*keepin snakes in small countainers*

yea i keep rats in tubs and they probably kept cleaner and more feed than myself but all my snakes are kept in large enclosures with heat light and plenty of places to hide i suppose breeders are in it for the money and not the enjoyment


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

assadassa said:


> i suppose breeders are in it for the money and not the enjoyment



I beg your pardon?


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## hornet (Jan 15, 2011)

as i said thats what it quickly turned into, not just that small tubs were bad but some how all tubs cannot provide a good quality of life for snakes


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## No-two (Jan 15, 2011)

I like to counter balance keeping mine in tubs by not feeding them so they're always paceing looking for food, its great enrichment and stimuli for them.


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Melissa, no one said that keeping reptiles in small plastic boxes is detrimental to them. It's a matter aesthetics and the keeper's reason for keeping reptiles in the first place. Imagine going to the zoo and seeing snakes on display on newspaper, etc.. I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.



I thought the welfare of the animals was the major concern here, not aesthetics? Why is it acceptable for large breeders to keep their animals like battery hens? Necessary venom collection etc. is possibly a different story, but nonetheless, it is certainly not ideal. I keep a lot of my animals in tubs, but I believe housing animals without ample space is unacceptable in all cases, irrespective of the amount of animals any keeper has accumulated.

Also, I don't think it's exactly logical to make a blanket statement stating that all keepers started collecting for the same reason, and I very much doubt that it is correct in all cases.

I hardly think you can draw parallels between a private collection and the animals on exhibit at the zoo. People are being charged to view animals at the zoo, and aesthetics are obviously paramount in this case. A private collection is just that - private. Most keepers don't mind newspaper, and can derive enjoyment from the animal regardless of what substrate is in the enclosure.

I am certainly no "snake farmer" so I suppose I am a "snake lover/enthusiast," but I do not keep all of my animals in landscaped enclosures. This in no way means that you derive more enjoyment from your animals than I do, it simply means that your enclosures are much more appealing, and the combination of the animal and the great enclosure would come into play. I immensely enjoy all of my animals equally - the ones I keep in display enclosures are no more appealing to me than those that are in my racks.

I keep a few larger animals in landscaped display enclosures, and I feel that they are no better off than any of those that I keep in my racks. Whilst I love the look of display enclosures (some of yours are absolutely beautiful I must add), I do not want them in every room of my house either. I love the neat, compact look of my racks, and the reduction in workload and the quick and easy cleaning is a life-saver. The fact that I can house all of the animals I keep properly (whether that is in an enclosure with ample room, or a tub with ample room) is what I believe is important here, and my use of racking systems does not mean that I am less of a "lover" or "enthusiast" than anyone that keeps all of their animals in pretty enclosures.

As long as you meet all of your animals' needs, then the rest is really an individual choice. I do not believe that one is better than the other, racking systems just simply suit some keepers better than display enclosures and vice versa.


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## cris (Jan 15, 2011)

assadassa said:


> yea i keep rats in tubs and they probably kept cleaner and more feed than myself


 
Sorry to hear you live trapped in a tiny room full of your own excrement, hows that going for you?


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

Melissa, don't take it too personally. My posts here are general and I am not pointing finger at anyone in particular.



xxMelissaxx said:


> I thought the welfare of the animals was the major concern here, not aesthetics? Why is it acceptable for large breeders to keep their animals like battery hens? Necessary venom collection etc. is possibly a different story, but nonetheless, it is certainly not ideal. Big establishments, particularly venom collection set ups house so many snakes that it is sometimes necessary to keep them in smaller enclosures than one would like to see. This doesn't mean the snakes are kept in poor conditions. I keep a lot of my animals in tubs, but I believe housing animals without ample space is unacceptable in all cases, irrespective of the amount of animals any keeper has accumulated.
> 
> Also, I don't think it's exactly logical to make a blanket statement stating that all keepers started collecting for the same reason, and I very much doubt that it is correct in all cases. I don't quite understand where you coming from. "Keepers started collecting for the same reason" who said that?
> 
> ...



cheers


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## brayden49 (Jan 15, 2011)

Lol i didn't relise this thread would cause so much controversy
keep the opinions coming.


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## giggle (Jan 15, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> As long as you meet all of your animals' needs, then the rest is really an individual choice. I do not believe that one is better than the other, racking systems just simply suit some keepers better than display enclosures and vice versa.



Absolutely... I think that if you can provide them the enrichment or the chance to behave as naturally as possible in captivity... in a tub... it probably makes no difference to the snake. Perhaps depending on the species, an opaque tub with all needs accounted for and ample space would be preferable to the snake itself. You are certainly one for detail Melissa, I can not imagine you missing any of your snakes needs.

When you look at snakebytes... you can not deny they are snake farmers.

Right now I have a beardie in quarantine. She is in a tub. She has everything the other beardie has, however, being in a tub means she is easier to monitor, she can be moved quickly should she need to be rushed off to the vet and I can keep her in a different room herps would not normally be in. Tubs surely have their place... but thats not the point  Keeping a huge snake in a tiny tub that it can not even lift its head above its body... that is not even a third of its total length... that when curled up they take up two thirds of it... tis pretty sad. I haven't heard of any aussie keepers doing such a thing. But I have seen it repeated many times in the US.


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## Darlyn (Jan 15, 2011)

I must admit that I wonder about frillies being kept in enclosures. In the wild they gallop around everywhere and I can't see them being able to do this in captivity.


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Charging money has nothing to do with it - Zoos have obligations to educate the public. It's not about the "look" it's about showing the viewers a piece of the animal's habitat.



You are correct, but it is still not relevant to the discussion - private keepers do not have any such obligations to educate the public.

I am not taking your posts in particular personally, this is just a debate I have had many times and there are many people who do indeed look down upon those that keep animals in tubs. Some of your posts came across as such that I felt the need to gain clarification.

Now after further discussion, it appears we are virtually on the same page, just with different methods of keeping. It did not appear that way upon reading your earlier posts.

This is an interesting topic, and if anyone has any relevant papers or knows of any studies that may be of interest (effects of stimuli in the enclosure on the animal etc.) please post them. Have had a dig around in the past without much success.



giggle said:


> Absolutely... I think that if you can provide them the enrichment or the chance to behave as naturally as possible in captivity... in a tub... it probably makes no difference to the snake. Perhaps depending on the species, an opaque tub with all needs accounted for and ample space would be preferable to the snake itself. You are certainly one for detail Melissa, I can not imagine you missing any of your snakes needs.



Agreed and thank-you, I do my best.



giggle said:


> Keeping a huge snake in a tiny tub that it can not even lift its head above its body... that is not even a third of its total length... that when curled up they take up two thirds of it... tis pretty sad. I haven't heard of any aussie keepers doing such a thing. But I have seen it repeated many times in the US.



Also agree. I personally know of a large Scrubby that is very inadequately housed, and I doubt he is an isolated case. It is sad, and what's just as sad is that some people tar all that keep animals in racks with the same brush as those that keep animals in cramped conditions.


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## yommy (Jan 15, 2011)

yes zoos have pretty caging for those on display, what about behind the scenes with the other reptiles not on display, they are kept in smaller caging. smaller caging, even tubs can still met the needs of the animals when done properly. All my hatchies start of in hatchy tubs for 12 months before going to display cages. I am fortunate to have the space and not an extremely large collection, other don't have that luxury i am not going to hold it against them especially if they met the needs of there animals and have happy healthy animals.


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## craig.a.c (Jan 15, 2011)

Keeping hatchies in tubs is fine but larger snakes is wrong and cruel.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jan 15, 2011)

Micheal I think reptiles pythons in particular get more enrichment or stimulus out of different smells. 
Sometimes I randomly add some feathers or rat droppings in the cage.


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 15, 2011)

craig.a.c said:


> Keeping hatchies in tubs is fine but larger snakes is wrong and cruel.


 
These are exactly the statements that I was talking about above.

So keeping a large snake in a large tub, providing ample space, a perch, hides, heating and all the rest is cruel in your opinion? How so exactly? Enlighten us. Is it because the tub isn't made of wood and doesn't have a glass front?


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## mrkos (Jan 15, 2011)

Smaller collections, bigger enclosures, and deeper knowledge of our wild herps are all things which should be encouraged in the hobby.

sums it up perfectly


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## giggle (Jan 15, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Also agree. I personally know of a large Scrubby that is very inadequately housed, and I doubt he is an isolated case. It is sad, and what's just as sad is that some people tar all that keep animals in racks with the same brush as those that keep animals in cramped conditions.


 
This is true... its also true that animals can be inadequately housed in display enclosures  Whether it be size or set up. 



xxMelissaxx said:


> These are exactly the statements that I was talking about above.
> 
> So keeping a large snake in a large tub, providing ample space, a perch, hides, heating and all the rest is cruel in your opinion? How so exactly? Enlighten us. Is it because the tub isn't made of wood and doesn't have a glass front?



Its funny... I saw a video on youtube of someone that had quite cleverly converted your plain old crazy clarks tub into a beardie enclosure... and they got so many negative comments on it being inadequate... just because it looked cheap. But it covered all the animals needs. It was secure and would have held a nice gradient and probably alot better than an aquarium. Still, it looked cheap and home made. People often have a hard time separating their own personal aesthetic feelings from their animals preferences. In rural areas a heck of a lot of lizards love using your old half rusted corro iron as hides. They dont care how it looks but it functions perfectly. If it functions in the best way it can to promote that behaviour, it shouldnt matter how it looks to a human. 
Just as a piece of dowel works as well as a natural branch for a young arboreal animal... but its my personal preference to have a natural branch. Maybe texture and size variation of a natural branch makes a difference but probably only slightly.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jan 15, 2011)

lol People on here keep comparing pythons to cats and other animals in this thread. 
They arn't anything but pythons. 
Keep that in mind.


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## craig.a.c (Jan 15, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> These are exactly the statements that I was talking about above.
> 
> So keeping a large snake in a large tub, providing ample space, a perch, hides, heating and all the rest is cruel in your opinion? How so exactly? Enlighten us. Is it because the tub isn't made of wood and doesn't have a glass front?


 

Do they have enough room to stretch out more then half their body length?
If not I think its wrong, cruel. Just my opinion though, so I don't give a flying **** what others think.


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## -Matt- (Jan 15, 2011)

craig.a.c said:


> Keeping hatchies in tubs is fine but larger snakes is wrong and cruel.



So what your saying is it is perfectly fine to keep a hatchling Antaresia in a 7 litre tub but cruel to keep an adult in an 80L tub? That makes no sense.


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## Waterrat (Jan 15, 2011)

mrkos said:


> Smaller collections, bigger enclosures, and deeper knowledge of our wild herps are all things which should be encouraged in the hobby.
> 
> sums it up perfectly


 
This is the best statement in the whole thread. Non-confronting, constructive, inspiring and practical piece of advice.


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## norwich (Jan 15, 2011)

it amazes me how people who can talk about rats of which ive breed for many years which at the end of the day are a domesticated pest of which we breed to feed our snakes of which are native animals (mostly)this i put in out of respect to those playing the genetic game. how we can confuse the two please tell me this is not the way our reptile industry will roll


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## whyme (Jan 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> This is the best statement in the whole thread. Non-confronting, constructive, inspiring and practical piece of advice.



I agree, but how many of yours/anyones(legal) snakes are wild. They are not wild herps anymore, and most hatchies are raised in a tub with paper substrate. If a 10th gen captive bred yearling is moved into a suitable sized tub, I doubt it will miss the bush/plains! Its been raised on paper, in a tub. Just a question, are snakes a creature of habit?


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## cris (Jan 15, 2011)

norwich said:


> it amazes me how people who can talk about rats of which ive breed for many years which at the end of the day are a domesticated pest of which we breed to feed our snakes of which are native animals (mostly)this i put in out of respect to those playing the genetic game. how we can confuse the two please tell me this is not the way our reptile industry will roll


 
Dogs are also a domesticated pest, cant think of many who would keep them in tubs with no respect for their wellbeing. Why should a native animal as stupid as a fish be granted more imaginary fairy rights than an intellegent social animal like a rat? Half you so called 'snake huggers' would be happy to impale a fish on a hook for sport while whinging about someone who protects themself by killing a harmful snake. There are plenty of people who are in touch with nature on this site but sadly many are just prosnake biggots completely out of it.


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## cement (Jan 15, 2011)

The reason why snakes need some room to move around may be just completely unknown to some people on this thread.
Not all pythons are ambush predators, take the aspidites species, they are active hunters. So are most elapids, not ambush but active hunters.

All snakes need exercise for muscle development and to keep digestion flowing properly. Snakes that don't get exercise, become lethargic and the process of digestion creates gases that need to be released through exercise, otherwise they run the risk of bloating and abdominal pain, movement helps stop this just like in humans!

So as long as there is enough room to move and stimulus to necessitate movement then they are fine. This can be achieved in either an enclosure or a large tub. But those large retics and burmese in the tubs that snakebytes has, well.....


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 15, 2011)

cris said:


> There are plenty of people who are in touch with nature on this site but sadly many are just prosnake biggots completely out of it.


 
Could not agree more with the above statement.


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## norwich (Jan 16, 2011)

hey cris i have pet rats and yes they are a very comical little animal to have as a pet but i dont confuse the two and another thing to all of you that think snakes are stupid etc if you earn the respect of one of or all of your shakes or reps you will learn that they are capable of a lot more than we give them credit for


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## cris (Jan 16, 2011)

norwich said:


> hey cris i have pet rats and yes they are a very comical little animal to have as a pet but i dont confuse the two and another thing to all of you that think snakes are stupid etc if you earn the respect of one of or all of your shakes or reps you will learn that they are capable of a lot more than we give them credit for


 
I appreciate things for what they are, i even think my parents are stupid but i still respect them(I also know as a proven fact im stupid). Snakes are awesome animals, but brain power isnt one of their strong points. They still are obviously well adapted to life, but i would like to see anyone prove they are smarter than many types of fishes and i would doubt they are anywhere near as smart as a squids and stuff.


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## Wookie (Jan 16, 2011)

cris said:


> There are plenty of people who are in touch with nature on this site but sadly many are just prosnake biggots completely out of it.


 
Here, here

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 12:03 AM ----------




xxMelissaxx said:


> As long as you meet all of your animals' needs, then the rest is really an individual choice. I do not believe that one is better than the other, racking systems just simply suit some keepers better than display enclosures and vice versa.


 
The racks were developed to suit the keepers not the animals kept in them.


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 16, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> The racks were developed to suit the keepers not the animals kept in them.



Perhaps, but if it also suits the animals then the reason for its design is really of no consequence.

Racks and tubs aren't bad - it's the people that use them inappropriately that are the problem..


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## D3pro (Jan 16, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Perhaps, but if it also suits the animals then the reason for its design is really of no consequence.
> 
> Racks and tubs aren't bad - it's the people that use them inappropriately that are the problem..


 
Guns don't kill people.... douche bags kill people


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## cris (Jan 16, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Guns don't kill people.... douche bags kill people


 
Guns dont kill anyone, projectiles are useful occasioanlly though :lol: (thats is a joke for any degnerate dumb enough not to get it)


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## Chris1 (Jan 16, 2011)

i do believe snakes respond to stimulus, every time i add a new branch or hanging pot to a section in the aviary it becomes the flavour of the month of the next 3-4 days, all the snakes in that section feel the need to perch on the 'new thing'.

keeping snakes indoors is unnatural regardless, while i thought i was happy keeping my snakes in big well decorated indoor enclosures, these days im happiest seeing them all empty cos my snakes are outside enjoying the elements, the complete surprise is how much they love the rain, as soon as it starts they all move out to the open perches to spread out and get wet.
they can enjoy their indoor enclosures for 2 days after feeding, and then again when winter comes.

Big, well set out tubs or indoor display enclsoures im sure really dont matter, if a tub and display enclosure have the same amount of space/branches/hides/heat etc its much of a muchness. (i'm not talking about those rack/tub setups that are 15cms high, i do consider that cruel)
i make my enclosures pretty cos i prefer spending a few hundred $ on displaying my animals nicely than buying a bunch of paintings to decorate walls.
and i get hours and hours of enjoyment observing my happy animals doing their thing. (even if that is sitting motionless on a branch)


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 16, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Here, here
> 
> ---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 12:03 AM ----------
> 
> ...



As a general statement, that's a flawed argument indeed. The great success keepers/breeders have in raising close to 100% of young snakes these days is largely due to the fact that the babies are kept in controlled confinement. Tubs/racks suit many snakes very well in terms of privacy, security, managed temperatures/humidity. I'm not arguing for or against, just being objective. Snakes generally are shy, secretive and retiring.

Jamie.


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

I think all breeders keep new-born babies in some kind of tubs, racks or similar containers. We have no other choice (no need for detailed explanation I hope). 
However, I know several keepers who use racks and tubs for one and only reason; they accommodate large numbers of reptiles. These people pride themselves with what they got, the more the better, having species that their mates don't have is even better. This collector's mentality is a common phenomenon amongst hobbyists and if you haven't seen it, you haven't been around long enough. I've got a mate who very experienced, knowledgeable reptile keeper. Each time I see him, he has got something new, another adder, another this and that and when I asked him what does he get out of his "collection" in terms of pleasure, experience, money, whatever ....... he replies something like "it's great to have them all" - nice bloke but still a **********head. This is an instance where I would like to see racks banned.

disclaimer: if you're not one of those "collectors" take no offence ..... if you are, keep it quiet.


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## longqi (Jan 16, 2011)

Racks and boxes are ideal for breeders
But most reptile owners are not commercial breeders

A snake in a box is just another curiousity to be stared at through the opaque plastic
A snake in an environment is a thing of beauty which responds much more actively

We have three burmese in one enclosure here
As soon as we open the shop two of them come straight up to the glass waiting to crawl around the shop
Would they do this if they were in plastic tubs??
We have absolutely zero negative comments about our reptiles
The reason is that they are all fit and active
Would they be the same in a plastic box??
..
I for one will not keep any thing other than hatchlings in tubs

But then again it is each persons personal choice


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## giggle (Jan 16, 2011)

cement said:


> The reason why snakes need some room to move around may be just completely unknown to some people on this thread.
> Not all pythons are ambush predators, take the aspidites species, they are active hunters. So are most elapids, not ambush but active hunters.
> 
> All snakes need exercise for muscle development and to keep digestion flowing properly. Snakes that don't get exercise, become lethargic and the process of digestion creates gases that need to be released through exercise, otherwise they run the risk of bloating and abdominal pain, movement helps stop this just like in humans!
> ...


 
This is so true... I notice my snakes using their branches to help push their meals down. Once they have eaten they like to do a bit of climbing and moving until they have pushed that food right down. I wonder how this would affect an animal that could barely move.


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## AllThingsReptile (Jan 16, 2011)

haha i think that, even if the snake doesnt care, having a rack or some click clacks, doesnt look as nice
dont get me wrong, i dont only like things that look nice, i just think that snakes should have space to move around, would you guys keep an ackie in a click clack that was hardly big enough for it to stretch out in?


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

lizardboii said:


> haha i think that, even if the snake doesnt care, having a rack or some click clacks, doesnt look as nice
> dont get me wrong, i dont only like things that look nice, i just think that snakes should have space to move around, would you guys keep an ackie in a click clack that was hardly big enough for it to stretch out in?


 
lizards are totally different so its an unfair comparison to make


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## firedream (Jan 17, 2011)

I think tubs are fine if they provide room for snake to stretch. For me its not a enclosure vs tub situation more of a tiny room vs a larger room. I prefer to keep my snakes in enclosures but have also kept snakes in large tubs until enclosures were built. I have to say i never got to see my snakes unless feeding and cleaning in tubs but now i can lay on my lounge (yes i'm lazy its school holidays) and enjoy them slithering all over the place. Personally its more enjoyable for me to have them in enclosures. I would love to have them in outdoor enclosures but worry about them, getting stolen. Then i would have to move my lounge outside.


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 17, 2011)

firedream said:


> Could anyone tell me of any studies that have proved snakes are stupid. I don't want to start another argument but there are a lot of people saying snakes are just stupid, so i just would like to know where these statements come from.



There are plenty of studies around. Even easier: a quick glance at a diagram of a snake's brain and some basic knowledge of the structures and their functions will also make it clear.


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## firedream (Jan 17, 2011)

Geez its just too complicated.


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 17, 2011)

firedream said:


> Could you give me a site address for this i would love to read about it.


 
To start with, all you need to do is just google an image of the brain of a snake and have a read up on the individual brain structures - most of the stuff isn't too complicated. Once you see what is present and what is noticeably absent, it will become apparent that a lot of people are simply anthropomorphistic.

You'll have to have a look through some databases for the journal articles that go into specific cognitive abilities. You'll also need to have some knowledge on the brain and its functions to understand these papers. When I finish work tonight I'll have a dig around though my material at home and PM you if I find some stuff that is relevant.


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## Waterrat (Jan 17, 2011)

firedream said:


> Could you give me a site address for this i would love to read about it.


 

You're asking for a site address. Melissa is suggesting you read primary literature, i.e. scientific papers. Internet sites rarely deal with such issues and if they do, you can't trust their integrity.


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## firedream (Jan 17, 2011)

Yes I'm just to confused now too many big words. sorry.


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 17, 2011)

firedream said:


> Well my home library would not have literature papers in it so i figure any reading is better than none. But i will ask my boss if she has any idea where i can get some info. She is a vet and her library alone at the clinic is amazing. Otherwise i'll ask the honour student i was volunteering for capturing carpet pythons in leschenault peninsula, she should have something being that she was studying them. The conversation about the intelligence of snakes was not among the conversations we had while working together. Hopefully I haven't fried my brain so much while studying conservation and wildlife biology at uni and its not too complicated for me.



Maybe you should start a thread in the introduction section for this sort of stuff as it is kind of irrelevant to the topic..


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## cement (Jan 17, 2011)

giggle said:


> This is so true... I notice my snakes using their branches to help push their meals down. Once they have eaten they like to do a bit of climbing and moving until they have pushed that food right down. I wonder how this would affect an animal that could barely move.



I am referring to the actual digestion, swallowing can be accomplished quite easily in a confined space.


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## jamesn48 (Jan 17, 2011)

As long as the tub isn't too small and meets all the animals needs i don't have a problem with tubs, there very useful for housing hatchies. However i keep my reptiles in 'natural' enclosures simply because it looks good.


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## firedream (Jan 17, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Maybe you should start a thread in the introduction section for this sort of stuff as it is kind of irrelevant to the topic..



Yes, yes it is. Your completely correct.


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## aussie-albino (Jan 19, 2011)

Just my personal preference, but I like to see my pythons exploring there enclosures at night, stretching out full length, I like to see my carpets wrapped around a branch scanning the floor below watching for food and I like the healthy glow they get to there skin when they get to see a bit of good old fashoined sunlight for 15-20 minutes a couple of times a week.

cheers
Scott


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jan 21, 2011)

wow this is still going!

not sure if this has been said yet (probably has by now)

but, lets look at this from the snake/lizards POV. 
reptiles DON'T enjoy beeing out in the open and in full view of the world (glass frount enclosure lets say in the lounge room) 
they feel safer if they think no one is watching them, and would be more inclined to move about get a drink and sit on the hot spot when they feel safe. (in an opaque colored tub/container) 
where as in a glass frount enclosuer all thou it migh look pritter to you and me, is a lot more open and therforth exposed and so the reptiles are going to spend more time hiding and be under more stress than the ones in the rack, 

with the rack depending on the types of containers used, the reptiels would not notice foot traffic half the time, but in the glass enclosuer, there going to notice every time some one or some thing (other pets, dogs cats etc) walk past and disturb them.


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## Ships (Jan 21, 2011)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I do have some of my animals in tubs and some in larger enclosures. Others reside in enclosures through the summer and tubs in winter to ease the heating load. The vast majority of pythons are ambush predators, hence they don't move a lot. Generally I see my animals in the larger enclosures when they are hungry, when they have fed they stay in their hide box unless they need to thermoregulate or drink. For this reason providing the tubs are of an adequate size to allow some thermoregulation and space to move around with hidebox and water dish I cant see a problem. If a python is well fed, not stressed and has a proper heat cradient they dont move around too much unless they got mites or hungry


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## Darlyn (Jan 21, 2011)

pyrodarknessanny said:


> wow this is still going!
> 
> not sure if this has been said yet (probably has by now)
> 
> ...


 

Your comparisons don't add up. If a glass front enlosure is not in a high traffic area and a rack is, the argument is reversed.
A snake in a plastic box still senses the vibrations, so they will notice foot trafiic.


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## pistachio117 (Jan 22, 2011)

Agree very much with Waterrat-they care for their animals but when it comes down to it many people are keeping reptiles to breed them and then make plenty of cash from it, it's of course better for the reptile and the keeper when the keeper's main goal is make sure they are healthy and happy, and to enjoy and learn from these amazing creatures for what they are. Keeping large snakes, well any snakes, in small tubs for their entire lives is quite cruel in my opinion.


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## Waterrat (Jan 22, 2011)

pyrodarknessanny said:


> reptiles DON'T enjoy beeing out in the open and in full view of the world (glass frount enclosure lets say in the lounge room)
> they feel safer if they think no one is watching them, and would be more inclined to move about get a drink and sit on the hot spot when they feel safe. (in an opaque colored tub/container)



How do you know that? Any real evidence? How can you tell what reptiles are "enjoying" and what not?
Reptiles in Zoo exhibits are exposed to full view of the world and they're doing very well.


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## longqi (Jan 22, 2011)

When ever I put on a bit of music such as Mettallica one of my retics slips his head out of the roof cavity and sways to the music. So to say that most snakes dont enjoy human contact and being incorporated into everyday life is rubbish
As soon as people begin to understand that snakes are very similar in many ways to other pets they will start treating them the same way
Reptiles have had 30,000 years of being treated pretty badly
Only been treated as pets very recently
Look at the huge retics and burmese that sleep with kids etc etc
That is only possible because they have been incorporated into general family life
They know and understand a lot more than most people give them credit for
..


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## Jungletrans (Jan 22, 2011)

l am going to move all mine into 100mm plastic water pipes , just cut a bit longer than the snake . l can keep hundreds of them in a hall closet . The 4ft+ enclosures l can use to house the Great Danes l plan to breed . As for the obvious throw off about the mice breeders , that is why l breed my own .


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## mrkos (Jan 22, 2011)

just like bettsy the boa that bit her owners face. It only takes one bite to throw that theory of yours out the window!


longqi said:


> When ever I put on a bit of music such as Mettallica one of my retics slips his head out of the roof cavity and sways to the music. So to say that most snakes dont enjoy human contact and being incorporated into everyday life is rubbish
> As soon as people begin to understand that snakes are very similar in many ways to other pets they will start treating them the same way
> Reptiles have had 30,000 years of being treated pretty badly
> Only been treated as pets very recently
> ...


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## Wookie (Jan 22, 2011)

mrkos said:


> just like bettsy the boa that bit her owners face. It only takes one bite to throw that theory of yours out the window!


 
Not exactly. Behaviour and intelligence is more complex than that! I'm sure you've snapped at somebody before, I sure have. And I still think I'm Einstein ;P


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## whyme (Jan 22, 2011)

pistachio117 said:


> Agree very much with Waterrat-they care for their animals but when it comes down to it many people are keeping reptiles to breed them and then make plenty of cash from it, it's of course better for the reptile and the keeper when the keeper's main goal is make sure they are healthy and happy, and to enjoy and learn from these amazing creatures for what they are. Keeping large snakes, well any snakes, in small tubs for their entire lives is quite cruel in my opinion.


Who says they're in small tubs. I think some of you people need to see a rack setup before you make a stupid comment!


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

I have a fairly large number of breeding GTPs and Burmese so I know exactly what a rack setup is like
For COMMERCIAL BREEDERS there is nothing better
But for the other 99% of reptile owners keeping such a beautiful animal in a plastic box just helps expand the myths about snakes
For anyone to keep large snakes in a box where it cannot stretch out borders on animal cruelty in my opinion
Throughout Asia there are hundreds of large retics etc kept in small enclosures
They are Always sluggish and have poor muscle definition
Most comments I get at my displays is "WOW these are so strong and active"

So I know both points of view on this subject being both a breeder and a demonstrator


This is at the breeding site
You can see the HATCHLING RACKS
But ONLY Hatchlings are kept like that

Yes that is a lavender retic.....


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

If you're *not* a commercial breeder and keep your snakes in tubs / racks - can I ask why do you keep snakes in tubs or even why do you keep snakes at all?

1/ Look what I cram cram into my room
2/ Look how many snakes I've got
3/ I get the cleaning done in half the time
4/ It's more hygienic than cages (bull...! They crawl in their faeces in tubs)
5/ My snakes get more privacy in tubs, it's good for them
6/ I only see them when I feed them or clean the tubs, that's enough for me
7/ If I have to move house, it's easier
8/ Tubs are cheaper than display cages
8/ I feel awesome being surrounded by so many snakes
Anything else?

The commercial breeders have a purpose and reason to keep snakes in tubs - what's yours other than any of the 8 points above?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 23, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> How do you know that? Any real evidence? How can you tell what reptiles are "enjoying" and what not?


 
This is the point to this discussion, start asking for evidence that these animals prefer either of the keeping methods and the discussion suddenly runs dry! We will never perceive their point of view. This whole debate( all 11 pages of it) is based on nothing more than opinion.


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

Exactly. Statements like "they don't care if their surroundings are nice" are totally out of place and that for several reasons; we don't know if they care or not, we have no idea what their perception of their surroundings is either. The missing point here is - do landscaped cages stimulate the occupants to be more active, i.e. more exercise? And if the answer to that is yes, than it's convincing enough for me to say A is better than B.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 23, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> If you're *not* a commercial breeder and keep your snakes in tubs / racks - can I ask why do you keep snakes in tubs or even why do you keep snakes at all?
> 
> 1/ Look what I cram cram into my room
> 2/ Look how many snakes I've got
> ...


 

I was going to stay out of this discussion but I feel I need to say my say. We are not a commercial entity. We keep all our animals in racks, it is our choice to do so. We also hold back lots of our hatchlings for future selection and breeding projects. Our animals are also not pets, snakes in our opinion should not be seen as pets. They are wild animals and will never be domesticated, no matter how hard we try to put them in that category. Michael, you could never understand why we keep reptiles in racks in the southern states. Unfortunately we don't have the weather that you experience up in Cairns. You also don't do much in regards to temperature cycling, environment control etc. up where you are from. If you were ever lucky enough to really do all the hard work that we do down south to get our animals to breed then you might understand why we keep our animals in racks.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2011)

never been a fan of battery farms 
but some of the racks out there like the FB racks have a larger floor space than some of the display enclosures people keep their snakes in
either way 
using a rack or a display enclosure doesnt make much difference if the enclosure or tub is too small for the snake

longqi a rack system might be better for a comercial breeder as they can cram more snakes into a smaller space to make more money, fair enough! but is this better for the snakes?


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

Racks have proven to be by far the most sterile and efficient system for commercial breeding
In saying that I agree with you that they are probably NOT as good for the snakes as real habitats would be
My experience over a period has shown that snakes in boxes are seldom as inquisitive and curious as those kept in habitats
Only my hatchlings stay in racks for easy control and because I simply have far too many to give each one a habitat
Even my top breeders have their own or joint habitats out of the breeding rooms
Some of my display snakes can be seen at wahyu hijau in facebook


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I was going to stay out of this discussion but I feel I need to say my say. We are not a commercial entity. We keep all our animals in racks, it is our choice to do so. We also hold back lots of our hatchlings for future selection and breeding projects. Our animals are also not pets, snakes in our opinion should not be seen as pets. They are wild animals and will never be domesticated, no matter how hard we try to put them in that category. Michael, you could never understand why we keep reptiles in racks in the southern states. Unfortunately we don't have the weather that you experience up in Cairns. You also don't do much in regards to temperature cycling, environment control etc. up where you are from. If you were ever lucky enough to really do all the hard work that we do down south to get our animals to breed then you might understand why we keep our animals in racks.



Point taken.
Please tell me (and I am not having a go at you at all) why do you keep snakes, what do you do with them, what do you derive from having them, etc.. That's sort of thing none of the tubbers explained yet. You can tell me where to go, it's not my business and I accept it. But I am really curious why people keep large collections in tubs if they're not commercial breeders, exhibitors or genetic engineers.


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## getarealdog (Jan 23, 2011)

I use tubs,cages & outdoor pits. Use tubs for all my adders with 3ft cages for the adults. Eastern,Western Tigers & RBB's spend 75% of there time in outdoor pits (6x5ft) & in winter spend it in tubs without heating. Pythons (only have adults) are kept in 3ft to 6ft cages. BTS's are currently in tubs but soon to go in 4x2 vertical cages. Juvie/sub adult elapids get the use of a playpen (spare outdoor pit) on nice days. Put some out yesterday & will leave them there for the week. I think bigger is better (for adults) but each to their own.


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## Wookie (Jan 23, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> They are wild animals and will never be domesticated


 
Define domesticated? I think a lot of pythons are domesticated. I've seen some vens that border on domesticated. 



> snakes in our opinion should not be seen as pets.



Why do you keep them then? Obviously not pets for yourself. So you breed and sell them to people as pets? Yet you don't believe in them being pets? Also, you keep certain lines back, to try inject or accentuate certain traits, making them more attractive as pets? I mean, you wouldn't try breeding designer snakes to educate the public on wild animals that shouldn't be kept as pets, would you?


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## hugsta (Jan 23, 2011)

At what point does a 'private' breeder become a 'commercial' breeder???


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## Wookie (Jan 23, 2011)

hugsta said:


> At what point does a 'private' breeder become a 'commercial' breeder???


 
If you go by the definition then as soon as you sell the animals you breed.


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

hugsta said:


> At what point does a 'private' breeder become a 'commercial' breeder???


 
Both are loose terms. When someone produces a lot of offspring for the purpose of selling them, it's touching on commercial activity. SR, URS and SX are in a league of their own.


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

Carpetpythons I spent years in Mudgee and Nelson Bay playing with snakes including GTPS and Julatten Jungles so I know a lot about temperature etc and the problems
But I NEVER used racks or tubs at that time
Unless you have a valid reason to keep all your pythons in boxes why do you do it???

Saying snakes will never be domesticated is ridiculous
Just visit some of the Burmese Indian or Thai temples and villages where snakes live as part of the family
I do NOT mean the places on the street where they defang cobras etc but the places where most families have at least one snake living with them on a daily basis

20 years ago few people kept snakes in Australia
We had lots of problems at that time just getting information etc because there was no internet
So we are very young in experience compared to some asian people who have been involved actively for thousands of years

A snakes in any type of box or habitat is a curiousity
A snake who is part of the family is a thing of wonder

I have two retics living in my roof space
I tap on the roof and they come over to the hatch to see what is going on
Sometimes they come down at night and are waiting in the lounge for a feed when we get up
When we have a party at least one will stick its head out to see whats going on
They could very easily just leave if they wanted to
But they stick around and are a pair so will probably mate
Their previous owner had them shut into boxes 
One escaped from my enclosure but hung around looking for its mate
It got quite cozy in the roof space so I let the other one join it

Closer to home the biggest scrubby I have ever seen lives in a roof about 10 minutes from Cairns Central
An old woman came to see me about it because she was getting too old and wanted to make sure it is safe if she dies
It has been there for a very long time
Every month she leaves three chickens on the kitchen table and in the morning they are gone
She has never handled it but has stroked its back a couple of times
I had a look at it and it is a very dark colour but in fine condition

Interaction between humans and snakes is a very new thing to caucasians
But it does happen
The sooner we start treating snakes as pets the sooner they will respond


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## hugsta (Jan 23, 2011)

The point being, does a kid at home with a trio of beardies potentially breeding 3 clutches of say 25 from each female deem him as commercial, that's 150 beardies a season, an aweful lot, or 1 spawning of frogs that produces 1000 taddies..?? As soon as you need to house a lot of animals, even though you may only have a few adults, suddenly you need to a lot of room to house and maintain the offspring. So little Jonny in his bedroom with a trio of dragon's suddenly needs to house a lot of babies, a lot of crix, heating etc etc. So should he set up more timber tanks etc so the animals are 'happy' in your opinion? Or would you set up plastic tubs to house them in....?? The latter will be everyone's choice.


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## Wookie (Jan 23, 2011)

hugsta said:


> The point being, does a kid at home with a trio of beardies potentially breeding 3 clutches of say 25 from each female deem him as commercial, that's 150 beardies a season, an aweful lot, or 1 spawning of frogs that produces 1000 taddies..?? As soon as you need to house a lot of animals, even though you may only have a few adults, suddenly you need to a lot of room to house and maintain the offspring. So little Jonny in his bedroom with a trio of dragon's suddenly needs to house a lot of babies, a lot of crix, heating etc etc. So should he set up more timber tanks etc so the animals are 'happy' in your opinion? Or would you set up plastic tubs to house them in....?? The latter will be everyone's choice.


 
But some may argue that letting them breed is a conscious choice and as such, you must be prepared to fork out that money before you choose to breed.


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

Hugsta, it has been established somewhere in this long thread that keeping hatchlings in tubs is not only OK but inevitable. Little Johny with his beardies is not a commercial breeder because he doesn't keep / breed his beardies to sell them, at least that's not his intention. I think you are splitting hairs here. 
There are people who keep 100 + reptiles in their collections (in tabs), their intention may not be to sell them but it becomes necessity if they breed. My question was - what motivates these people to keep such large collections and why are they keeping reptiles at all? I am not knocking them, I am just curious, that's all.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2011)

hugsta said:


> . So should he set up more timber tanks etc so the animals are 'happy' in your opinion? Or would you set up plastic tubs to house them in....?? The latter will be everyone's choice.


 
it wouldnt matter what the enclosures are made of hugsta as long as they are the large enough to house the animals properly 

do you think because little jonny has bred too many animals to fit into his bedroom its fine for him to keep them their entire life in the tub's? or do you think if little jonny cant provide the adequate space for each individual then maybe he shouldnt be breeding his trio of beardies in the first place???


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

"do you think because little jonny has bred too many animals to fit into his bedroom its fine for him to keep them their entire life in the tub's? or do you think if little jonny cant provide the adequate space for each individual then maybe he shouldnt be breeding his trio of beardies in the first place??? "

This hits it on the head

But I am a commercial breeder
I make no apologies for keep my hatchies in racks
This is by far the most efficient way to do it
My breeders have habitats

I am also what you term a demonstrator
Those animals are kept in habitats

I am also a reptile lover
Those animals have both habitats and freedom to come and go

So there are degrees of separation here

I simply could not keep any reptile larger than a hatchling in a box or tub for an extended period
But that is only me

Like waterrat I am curious why anyone who is not a commercial breeder would keep their adult reptile in a box or tub????

Can we please leave short term emergencies out of any answer??


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

Don't hold your breath longqui, there won't be too many answers.
I am very passionate about large, landscaped enclosures (in case someone haven't noticed) but I also understand the advantages of tubs and racks in some circumstances. It would be foolish of me to think that I am going to convert 'tubbers' into 'habitaters' but if I can inspire some people to change the way they view reptiles, I would be a happy man. There is so much more to keeping reptiles than just being in possession, play God with morphs, make money or have a pet with a name. There is this thing called "natural history" and it's sad to see how detached some people are from nature.


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## seanjbkorbett (Jan 23, 2011)

~ SORRY TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE TREE HUGGERS!!..ha ha.. but MOST Pet Shops,venom facilities,wildlife facilities,sanctuary's,zoo's,SCIENCE LABS use rack systems and tubs..as a visitor to a park,sanctuary or zoo, you get to see amazing done up enclosures,and its wonderful..but behind the scenes,they mainly use rack systems,tubs etc to breed and house their snakes...  trust me i know this


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

Yes Sean
They are COMMERCIAL businesses

What i would like to know is why anyone other that a COMMERCIAL Business would keep adult snakes in tubs or boxes
..




Bitchy just waiting for our water fountain to be turned on


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

seanjbkorbett said:


> ~ SORRY TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE TREE HUGGERS!!..ha ha.. but MOST Pet Shops,venom facilities,wildlife facilities,sanctuary's,zoo's,SCIENCE LABS use rack systems and tubs..as a visitor to a park,sanctuary or zoo, you get to see amazing done up enclosures,and its wonderful..but behind the scenes,they mainly use rack systems,tubs etc to breed and house their snakes... * trust me i know this*



So do I - they have a very valid reason. What very valid reason has an amateur reptile keeper (hobbyist) got?


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## wranga (Jan 23, 2011)

people will never agree to how snakes should be kept or which is the best way to keep them. im yet to see proof of which is right or wrong. i have had people tell me im wrong in how i keep my collection. my snakes are healthy, they breed, and their still alive as are the person that keeps his different to me. his snakes are as healthy as mine, they breed and their still alive. so who is right and who is wrong? we all have our own opinions and think we know best


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## redbellybite (Jan 23, 2011)

Like waterrat I am curious why anyone who is not a commercial breeder would keep their adult reptile in a box or tub????

I will answer that question right now ...I use to live in a 5 bedroom rented house that had PLENTY of room to house a big enclosure ..thus I had one for my big fella(coastal carpet) ..then it got smashed, during a moving room, in that house ,so he was put in a tub , we got sick of renting,paying dead money and as we owned our own 2.5 acre block we decided to build a granny flat in our big shed and stop paying rent weekly ..so I have moved into a 1 bedroom flat in my shed that isnt any where near the size of the old rental ..hence my reason he is still in a tub ...he is crapping ,shedding ,drinking ,growing and in good nic even though he lives in a tub ..he gets a warm end and a cool end ..even though he is in a tub ..I get him out for stretches on a regular basis and allow him to cruise around the loungeroom ..even though he is in a tub ..and I take him out for grass time where he gets plenty of sunshine and outdoor smells ...HE ISNT MISSING OUT,he has three levels in his tub one up high, one low and the hide is floor level ..the rest are in tubs but are smaller snakes ..I dont feel so bad as I did when I first put him in there as he seems to be doing all he did in his old enclosure ..and in actual fact I let him out more so he gets more exercise then before as I am more conscience of him being in a tub ..its easier to clean PROPERLY ..boring to look at YES I agree ...but animal cruelty NO not at all .


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 23, 2011)

There is no answer that will satisfy you? Do you actually have a job Michael? Something that keeps you busy for most of the day? Are you married or do you have young kids? If you have none of the above then I would not expect you to understand and you never will. Same goes for being a demonstrator, you might find that rack systems would free up time that you never thought you had. The answer is simple; time management or efficiency! I don't want to get home after a long days work and have to spend hours of my time cleaning cages, when I have family business to tend to! Something that really annoys me is the fact that you think I am less of a reptile lover because I keep my animals in a more convenient way for myself than you Michael! I do like to have a life outside the herp scene, you would go insane if you didn't. 

We kept our snakes in proper reptile cages for years! We actually still have some cages standing around that we don't use anymore! Our animals are happy and healthy. I have shown non rack users just how fast feeding can go when you have 300 plus snakes. Takes us a whole 30 mins. Cleaning all our tubs would take a good 4 hours at the most! This means that we have a weekend to spend with friends and family. It also means that we can relax after a long days work. 

Keeping snakes in tubs has got nothing to do with being commercial; it has everything to do with having a life. I would also like to see just how much you would complain about a large electricity bill and how it cut into your GTP profit if you lived down in the southern parts of Australia. 

Thanks for reading. I don't think anybody could give you the correct explanation for keeping snakes in tubs. 

It's funny just how removed some keepers can be from reality!


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2011)

redbelly is this just for a single animal though? or can you put that much time into a whole collection to give them all the same benefits?

sean the reptile park i did work at had geckos in tubs but not snakes 
the snakes were all housed in enclosure banks, now a 150lt tub is around the same size as one enclosure in those banks so as i said before it doesnt matter what set up you use, enclosure or tub if its not big enough for the animal how does it matter what its made of? 
there was also a 4m burm kept in a box barley big enough to coil up in! because it was a reptile park does this make it ok for everyone to keep 2-3m pythons in 2ft square boxes? 
is there anyone in here that keeps chickens in small battery cages for their own personal use?


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## redbellybite (Jan 23, 2011)

Farma all mine are in tubs ..but the question was to do with adult size and I only have 1 adult size the rest are all youngins ...so at the moment can only comment on 1 adult ..


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## Wookie (Jan 23, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I don't want to get home after a long days work and have to spend hours of my time cleaning cages, when I have family business to tend to!


 
But, if you don't have the time to look after them then why have so many?


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

I can reply to carpets on three levels here

As a private owner and reptile lover I simply could not keep my pets in tubs

As a commercial breeder I can happily keep my hatchies in racks

As a demonstrator I need to keep my snakes in habitats because it keeps them happier and healthier
My snakes are well known for being both curious and happy to be handled
I dont think they would be like that if kept in tubs

It is very interesting that you used the words 'convenient for me"
How about good for the snakes??
..


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 23, 2011)

...


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

Nicole, you certainly took it personally. Whether I am married with kids or have a job is none of your business and have nothing to do with my or your reptile keeping. Just settle down.
You have clearly identified your self as a commercial breeder and if you read my previous posts, ...... ah, why to bother.


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## seanjbkorbett (Jan 23, 2011)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> There is no answer that will satisfy you? Do you actually have a job Michael? Something that keeps you busy for most of the day? Are you married or do you have young kids? If you have none of the above then I would not expect you to understand and you never will. Same goes for being a demonstrator, you might find that rack systems would free up time that you never thought you had. The answer is simple; time management or efficiency! I don't want to get home after a long days work and have to spend hours of my time cleaning cages, when I have family business to tend to! Something that really annoys me is the fact that you think I am less of a reptile lover because I keep my animals in a more convenient way for myself than you Michael! I do like to have a life outside the herp scene, you would go insane if you didn't.
> 
> We kept our snakes in proper reptile cages for years! We actually still have some cages standing around that we don't use anymore! Our animals are happy and healthy. I have shown non rack users just how fast feeding can go when you have 300 plus snakes. Takes us a whole 30 mins. Cleaning all our tubs would take a good 4 hours at the most! This means that we have a weekend to spend with friends and family. It also means that we can relax after a long days work.
> 
> ...


 
Couldnt have said it better!


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

I think it is just sad that a so called reptile lover can say "Keep snakes in tubs for time management and efficiency"

I could understand if you were a commercial breeder
But you say you are not??
Although your screen id seems to say differently??
..


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## redbellybite (Jan 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> I can reply to carpets on three levels here
> 
> As a private owner and reptile lover I simply could not keep my pets in tubs
> 
> ...


Have you ever kept adults in tubs? if your answer is NO then you cant assume they wont be happy and be able to handle ...My fella is still the same in character as he was in his enclosure like I said nothing has changed ,other then his home structure all his needs are being met ...and as I have kept him in both situations I can answer that truthfully ..


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

If you go back to my previous posts you will see that I kept my adults in tubs for a few months when setting up the facility here
They all changed a lot badly in temperament during this time

As soon as they were back in habitats they were back to being happy and part of the family again

My snakes are used on a daily basis being handled by strangers

From your description of ONE adult in a tub you dont fit into the 'lots of adults in tubs' anyway
One adult can be taken out and played with regularly

What I want to know is how people with lots of adults in tubs as pets can do this and still say their 'babies' are happy???
..

The previous reply was to me longqi
Not to micheal


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## seanjbkorbett (Jan 23, 2011)

well im over the debating!  we all love reptiles here..since we waste our time comming on here to debate about such things  ... i personally keep some of my collection in tubs and some in enclosures ,so i dont see a critical problem with keeping snakes in tubs if you have to...and i LOVE reptiles,not just the pet trade side,i love the conservation aswell and everything about herpetology.. saying we have no REAL passion and love for reptiles and their care because we house them in tubs,is a unfair judgment.
cheers


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 23, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> That is way below the belt. Don't bring personal life into this argument, [deleted]



Oh please! It's got everything to do with this discussion. It all boils down to time management.


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## wranga (Jan 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> If you go back to my previous posts you will see that I kept my adults in tubs for a few months when setting up the facility here
> They all changed a lot badly in temperament during this time
> 
> As soon as they were back in habitats they were back to being happy and part of the family again
> ...


 
do you think the change in tempeament might of been cause by stress in being relocated and not the fact that they were relocated in tubs? do you think given time your snakes may of returned to their old temperaments if given time to settle into their tubs?


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## D3pro (Jan 23, 2011)

Can't we all just get along? LOL


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

"so i dont see a critical problem with keeping snakes in tubs if you have to...and i LOVE reptiles,"

The question is why would you have to????

I have NO problem with keep a snake in a tub for a short period because of an emergency
But to keep a lot of adult snakes in tubs for extended periods makes me wonder why they bother if they profess to LOVE snakes
..


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> One adult can be taken out and played with regularly
> 
> What I want to know is how people with lots of adults in tubs as pets can do this and still say their 'babies' are happy???



Let me get this straight...

You think being "played with regularly" makes your snakes, or rather, "babies" happy? You also state that "babies" are not happy when they are in tubs, and you are asking (actually, challenging) how people who choose to keep animals in adequately sized tubs can state that their "babies" are happy?

You have got to be kidding!

I've given my opinion on the matter on previous pages and highlighted the *facts* (not airy-fairy theories, but facts) that demonstrate how my animals are more than properly cared for. The thread has now deteriorated, and the last few pages is full of judgemental garbage, and anthropomorphistic dribble.

I'm out.


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## longqi (Jan 23, 2011)

Because I have so many slitherers sometimes I am forced to used tubs for short periods
If the snakes are still taken out and handled they are fine
But if they are left in the tubs for long periods their temperament changes

I have only had snakes since early 1970s
So I dont have that much experience?????
..


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## hornet (Jan 23, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> My question was - what motivates these people to keep such large collections and why are they keeping reptiles at all? I am not knocking them, I am just curious, that's all.


 
In reptiles i only keep around 13-15 but i keep many hundreds of invertebrates, scorpions, spiders, stick insects, snails, roaches, crabs, crayfish, shrimp etc etc and all but a few, mainly aquatic species, are kept in tubs. The reasons being, its cheap, its easy to clean, alot easier to work with then hundreds of heavy glass or wooden tanks and often its the only way to keep the animals healthy, in some cases even alive. I still gain much enjoyment from my collection and honestly i much prefer the look of a clean tub or melamine tank compared to a horribly tacky "landscaped" enclosure. My animals appear to be healthy and thriving just as much as snakes and other animals kept in "landscaped" enclosures and there is no evidence what so ever to say that tubs are bad for a snakes health weather it be physical or mental health compared to "landscaped" enclosures or visa versa. As i said my animals all appear to be just as healthy as their counterparts in "landscaped" enclosures and i get plenty of enjoyment from my collection the way it is. Why cant it be personal choice, why does it have to be "tubs are bad"


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> Because I have so many slitherers sometimes I am forced to used tubs for short periods
> If the snakes are still taken out and handled they are fine
> But if they are left in the tubs for long periods their temperament changes
> 
> ...



Experience is irrelevant if your claims are clearly not based upon fact.

Here's a theory for you: perhaps once left alone for a little while, your animals being to get used to and enjoy NOT being hassled all the time, hence the change in temperament next time they see your hand coming down to drag them out of their enclosure and ruin their peace and quiet..


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## wranga (Jan 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> "so i dont see a critical problem with keeping snakes in tubs if you have to...and i LOVE reptiles,"
> 
> The question is why would you have to????
> 
> ...


 
i keep snakes in both enclosures and tubs. the reason i keep in tubs is room and also so i can move the snakes i wish to breed to a cooler part of my house. im yet to see any difference in the snakes i keep in tubs against those kept in enclosures. im also yet to see any proof as to why snakes cant be kept in tubs. im not saying you or anyone else is wrong in how you keep your snakes, but im sick of people judging those that keep snakes in tubs as not having a love for their snake/s or the hobby, or just in it for the money. we all have our opinions and this thread has run its time, its now time for it tobe closed before it gets anymore personal to some. cheers to all


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## hornet (Jan 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> As a demonstrator I need to keep my snakes in habitats because it keeps them happier and healthier
> My snakes are well known for being both curious and happy to be handled
> I dont think they would be like that if kept in tubs
> 
> ...


 
My snakes that are kept in tubs are just as friendly and curious as my snakes in larger enclosures. I dont see how that as anything to do with what they are housed in to me that seems more to do with the time spent with the animals. I'm sure 5 snakes in tubs having time spent on them will be alot calmer then 200 snakes in large enclosures.

Whats wrong with convenience? If the snakes are healthy then why cant we also think about ourselves?


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## cougars (Jan 23, 2011)

Snakes are fine in tubs if you let them out to explore and exercise...But if they stay in the tub and don't get out,I dont think thats right.I think enclosures are the best option...


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## seanjbkorbett (Jan 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> "so i dont see a critical problem with keeping snakes in tubs if you have to...and i LOVE reptiles,"
> 
> The question is why would you have to????
> 
> ...



I only use tubs for yearlings and hatchlings and small species of snakes ........theres no way i would keep a 4.5m Olive python in a tub nor a 2mtr bredli... i wouldnt have the time to take them out every night to slither around for a couple of hours,nor the eyes to keep watch if you got more than one snake..and i personally like them having space to stretch out..but for those people who say they do have the time to take their snakes out every night to move around..then i dont see a problem..as long as they stick to that routine,but i could imagine it would be a hassle,always making sure your snake got its daily move around (and sun)...

..what reason??.....well for 1.. same reason u said lol..........emergency or if you have to..due to......space,temporary enclosure for hatchies,for reasons that could be "building your enclosure,waiting for it to be delivered..waiting for it to be built.. quarantine ......thats some reasons why some one would have to  ....... i see your point tho! but i still wouldnt say ALL those who use tubs as enclosures for large pythons dont LOVE reptiles :S ...


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## Wookie (Jan 23, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> You have got to be kidding!
> 
> I've given my opinion on the matter on previous pages and highlighted the *facts* (not airy-fairy theories, but facts) that demonstrate how my animals are more than properly cared for. The thread has now deteriorated, and the last few pages is full of judgemental garbage, and anthropomorphistic dribble.
> 
> I'm out.


 
Your fact was that their brain has certain structures and from that you made ASSUMPTIONS (not fact). So no, you voiced your opinion, I welcome that. But don't stick a label on it as fact, if you have no way of proving it as such.




CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Oh please! It's got everything to do with this discussion. It all boils down to time management.


 
Or it may boil down to having more pets that you know/have time to look after?


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## Waterrat (Jan 23, 2011)

Some threads on APS can drive the unwary to alcoholism.
As a result, I am jobless, 5 times divorced with 15 kids (somewhere), no real family to drink my red wine with and the dog died last week. Life is a ........ but thanks for reminding me all that Nicole.

Colin, pull the curtain please. I will decide when to close a thread without your advice thanks michael


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## xxMelissaxx (Jan 23, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Your fact was that their brain has certain structures and from that you made ASSUMPTIONS (not fact). So no, you voiced your opinion, I welcome that. But don't stick a label on it as fact, if you have no way of proving it as such.



Re-read my posts, that is not even what I was referring to. Even so, I stated that there are certain structures that are absent, and I am certainly not making assumptions, this is fact as outlined in many scientific papers - get off the forums and have a read of these some time and perhaps you will understand a little better.

You are making statements that people that keep their animals in tubs are "lazy" and are not caring for their animals properly - these are ridiculous accusations with absolutely no substance and as such, I agree with Colin: settle down buddy.


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## Wookie (Jan 23, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Re-read my posts, that is not even what I was referring to. Even so, I stated that there are certain structures that are absent, and I am certainly not making assumptions, this is fact as outlined in many scientific papers - get off the forums and have a read of these some time and perhaps you will understand a little better.
> 
> You are making statements that people that keep their animals in tubs are "lazy" and are not caring for their animals properly - these are ridiculous accusations with absolutely no substance and as such, I agree with Colin: settle down buddy.


 
Not fired up so don't ask me to settle down. Also, I wouldn't call me your buddy .


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## Colin (Jan 23, 2011)

Im closing this thread before it gets any more out of control and personal than it already has.
settle down please people. thank you


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