# Funky Gecko



## Bearded_Penguin (Oct 28, 2014)

Had this little guy hatch today, not exactly built to spec. 


Funky Gecko.


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## BigWillieStyles (Oct 29, 2014)

That is a little odd. Are his siblings normal?


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## Thyla (Oct 29, 2014)

That's so weird. It's rounded off so perfectly. Does the knob exist just tucked underneath?


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 29, 2014)

It seems to be missing a toe on three feet, or my eye sight is shot


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## Bearded_Penguin (Oct 29, 2014)

BigWillieStyles said:


> That is a little odd. Are his siblings normal?


All other bubs from the same parents have been normal. 



Thyla said:


> That's so weird. It's rounded off so perfectly. Does the knob exist just tucked underneath?


The tail is rounded (nothing hidden) but also sort of thick where where it stops, sort of cowbell shaped for lack of a better description. There is no physical knob, just a tiny bump on the backside of the tail, but the whole tail pattern including that of the knob is present and wrapped around the back of the tail.







Dr-Zoidberg said:


> It seems to be missing a toe on three feet, or my eye sight is shot


Pretty sure the back feet both have five toes each (one is just hidden in the photo), but the front feet, he'll only ever be counting to eight on those.


There's more to the story.

Sometimes you get a dodgy egg and incubate it just for the heck of it, knowing it's unlikely to result in anything, he hatched from such an egg. The egg was like a floppy bag of snot, only 2/3 full, during incubation it took on moisture and filled out to a normal egg shape. I was quite surprised when it actually hatched though.

I find the symmetry of the deformity rather interesting, it's like nature knew there was only enough building blocks to make 2/3 of a gecko, so left some non-critical parts out during assembly.

The rounded tail causes him to fall on his back if he tries cage surfing, other than that he's fine.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 29, 2014)

I'd be interested to see if it produces "complete" offspring, weired little fellow none the less


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## Bearded_Penguin (Oct 29, 2014)

Dr-Zoidberg said:


> I'd be interested to see if it produces "complete" offspring, weired little fellow none the less


You can be sure I'll be putting that to the test once it reaches breeding age, though pretty sure it's related to the lack of egg contents.

Of course it could be the other way around, it's possible that is genetic and a chemical feedback mechanism from the egg caused her to expel it early, ever notice how new interesting morphs (that usually don't survive) often hatch from smaller eggs (I see this from various bearded dragon posts, assuming it happens with geckos as well).

She had a second egg that had even less contents but it shriveled up in the incubator fairly early.

It would be interesting if it was genetic, though a knobless knob-tail would make for a fairly strange morph.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 29, 2014)

A knobless knob-tail morph would be strange, yet intriguing. If it's tail where reduced any further it would almost look like a lanky frog.


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## kitten_pheonix (Oct 30, 2014)

I cant imagine why breeding a deformed animal is being considered. It may have other problems than just a physical appearance. Id seriously hope that if it were bred none of the offspring were sold.


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## PythonLegs (Oct 30, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> I cant imagine why breeding a deformed animal is being considered. It may have other problems than just a physical appearance. Id seriously hope that if it were bred none of the offspring were sold.



Please dont start this discussion. It starts with a mong gecko, leads into jags, and ends with me getting another infraction for swearing at people. 
Best to just smile and nod.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> I cant imagine why breeding a deformed animal is being considered. It may have other problems than just a physical appearance. Id seriously hope that if it were bred none of the offspring were sold.



Fair enough if it had a crippling deformity that made life unpleasant , but seriously? It's missing a couple of toes and a tail! Wouldn't depriving it of the right to pro-create be morraly wrong? After all isn't that what we're here for.


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## kitten_pheonix (Oct 30, 2014)

Dr-Zoidberg said:


> Fair enough if it had a crippling deformity that made life unpleasant , but seriously? It's missing a couple of toes and a tail! Wouldn't depriving it of the right to pro-create be morraly wrong? After all isn't that what we're here for.



I hope that is a joke. Unless this animal has been checked over by a vet how would you know if there wasnt more serious internal issues? Not everyone/thing should breed. Especially when its defective.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> I hope that is a joke. Unless this animal has been checked over by a vet how would you know if there wasnt more serious internal issues? Not everyone/thing should breed. Especially when its defective.



Lol how judgmental is that statement, not everyone/thing should breed ? If handicapped people or animals CHOOSE to breed it's exactly that, their choice!!!

If it has an underlying issue nature will take it's course, and there's virtually nothing a vetinarian can do for internal issues with small geckos.

ive noticed you always have something negative to say when someone has an odd gecko pop up in their collection, jealousy maybe?


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## Lachie3112 (Oct 30, 2014)

If it has a serious problem, it's going to die pretty soon. If it doesn't die soon, then it doesn't have a serious problem.

When I used to live an area with wild green tree frogs, I once encountered a green tree frog with a deformed leg. It had the third section of it's rear leg missing and the foot on that leg (not sure if it was due to injury or birth defect). Over the years I lived there, I watched it thrive. Sure, it couldn't jump perfectly, and had a little difficulty climbing, but it managed to grow to a decent size, and I believe it even bred successfully.

It seems like a pretty cool little gecko, and it just seems during development life decided that in order for it to survive it would put more energy into vital organs, rather than a couple of toes and a nicer tail. I don't see a problem with the owner breeding it in future if it survives, as long as there's nothing missing or abnormal in its genes, I don't see why it couldn't produce healthy offspring.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

Lachie3112 said:


> If it has a serious problem, it's going to die pretty soon. If it doesn't die soon, then it doesn't have a serious problem.
> 
> When I used to live an area with wild green tree frogs, I once encountered a green tree frog with a deformed leg. It had the third section of it's rear leg missing and the foot on that leg (not sure if it was due to injury or birth defect). Over the years I lived there, I watched it thrive. Sure, it couldn't jump perfectly, and had a little difficulty climbing, but it managed to grow to a decent size, and I believe it even bred successfully.
> 
> ...


 
*That sums it up perfectly.*


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## kitten_pheonix (Oct 30, 2014)

Dr-Zoidberg said:


> Lol how judgmental is that statement, not everyone/thing should breed ? If handicapped people or animals CHOOSE to breed it's exactly that, their choice!!!
> 
> If it has an underlying issue nature will take it's course, and there's virtually nothing a vetinarian can do for internal issues with small geckos.
> 
> ive noticed you always have something negative to say when someone has an odd gecko pop up in their collection, jealousy maybe?



Its not judgmental at all. Its logical. 
And a deformed animal is nothing to be jealous over so i dont really understand that statement. Mind informing me how im always negative? 
Theres a few people who have had exceptionaly nice geckos that are healthy show up in there collection that I have commented on but that has only ever been stating how nice the animal is. Defection isnt anything to be jealous over. And the intentional breeding of it is stupid. 
A few easy comparisons are defects in dogs due to stupid breedings.

- - - Updated - - -

And to elaborate a bit further, i had one egg go longer and eventually hatched deformed, somewhat resembling a bulldog in stance. It was given every chance in life and later passed, if it had of survived to adulthood it would never have been mated.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> Its not judgmental at all. Its logical.
> And a deformed animal is nothing to be jealous over so i dont really understand that statement. Mind informing me how im always negative?
> Theres a few people who have had exceptionaly nice geckos that are healthy show up in there collection that I have commented on but that has only ever been stating how nice the animal is. Defection isnt anything to be jealous over. And the intentional breeding of it is stupid.
> A few easy comparisons are defects in dogs due to stupid breedings.
> ...



If that's logic to you than that logic is sadly flawed, Unless your a supremacist that thinks less fortunate are inferior to yourself?
as for the negative comments, The first to come to mind is with a high white Levi's that you stated wasn't high white as it wasn't as white as yours? Can't be happy for fellow herp lovers/breeders?

this isn't the place to debate the ethics of keeping or breeding, heck, keeping a herp in a cage outside its natural environment is unethical as is breeding for profit. Both of wich you don't condone


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## kitten_pheonix (Oct 30, 2014)

Dr-Zoidberg said:


> If that's logic to you than that logic is sadly flawed, Unless your a supremacist that thinks less fortunate are inferior to yourself?
> as for the negative comments, The first to come to mind is with a high white Levi's that you stated wasn't high white as it wasn't as white as yours? Can't be happy for fellow herp lovers/breeders?
> 
> this isn't the place to debate the ethics of keeping or breeding, heck, keeping a herp in a cage outside its natural environment is unethical as is breeding for profit. Both of wich you don't condone



The high white gecko, was a white line gecko, not the same as what I am used to as the line i hold doesnt loose the white stripe. 
I discussed that matter with redink and a few others to find there were lines that do dull. I still stand by what i said on that thread.

And actually it is. I also dont know any reptile keepers that make a profit from breeding. And if they did/do it certainly isnt from breeding defective stock.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> The high white gecko, was a white line gecko, not the same as what I am used to as the line i hold doesnt loose the white stripe.
> I discussed that matter with redink and a few others to find there were lines that do dull. I still stand by what i said on that thread.
> 
> And actually it is. I also dont know any reptile keepers that make a profit from breeding. And if they did/do it certainly isnt from breeding defective stock.



Well you must know many breeders, would snake ranch or southern cross reptiles be so successful without such profits? Most certainly not, as wouldn't the few successful breeders of gtp's in the early nineties who made tens of thousands of dollars per season. If breeding wasn't profitable no-one would breed apart from conservationists and zoo's

Albinism is a defect that would cause the early death of wild individuals due to predation, do you have a dig at such breeders?

i really couldn't be bothered anymore, if your that against the practice of breeding mutations then look the other way or start an activist group and lobby against the government to adapt you ehhm supposed "ethics"


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## kitten_pheonix (Oct 30, 2014)

A deformed animal is not a "mutation"


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> A deformed animal is not a "mutation"



If a mutated gene causes deformities then it's a mutation, read a book or two


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## Lachie3112 (Oct 30, 2014)

A deformed animal should be able to produce normal offspring then, if it does not have a mutation.
There's no harm in trying to breed it should it live that long.
Remember, reptile changes/mutations through breeding take a LONG time to show up compared to mammals. Dogs such as German Shepherds have hip dysplasia due to systematic inbreeding over decades, breeding one gecko that has a deformity (at this stage something as trivial as a smaller than average tail and two missing toes) is not going to ruin the entire species.
Saying you shouldn't breed it is like saying to someone missing a finger you can't ever have kids because you might create problems in the future.

If it were to breed, and as a worse case scenario it produced deformed offspring, it's not like it's going to ruin a species. You could simply terminate the offspring and never breed it again, and no one would ever know or care.


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Oct 30, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> A deformed animal is not a "mutation"


stop please, It could very well be a mutation or a deformity. A deformity would be lack of growth in the egg resulting in a animal with genetics nothing out of the ordinary. Although it looks like a deformity it could very well be a mutation.. are scaleless ball pythons, cornsnakes, death adders all deformed or do they have a mutation?

basically what im trying to say is something that looks like a deformity could (or couldn't) be a mutation; although without breeding it will remain unknown.
Personally i wish Dr-Zoidberg the best of luck with this project regardless on what he decides to do.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

It's my understanding that evolution begins with a single mutated gene, if that "mutated" animal fairs well and breeds there will be more and more of that variant showing up, in the end, changing the species/sub-species indefinately, Whether it happens in the environment or in captivity it's still a natural phenomenon.


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## Bearded_Penguin (Oct 30, 2014)

Cold-B-Hearts said:


> stop please, It could very well be a mutation or a deformity. A deformity would be lack of growth in the egg resulting in a animal with genetics nothing out of the ordinary. Although it looks like a deformity it could very well be a mutation.. are scaleless ball pythons, cornsnakes, death adders all deformed or do they have a mutation?
> 
> basically what im trying to say is something that looks like a deformity could (or couldn't) be a mutation; although without breeding it will remain unknown.
> Personally i wish *Dr-Zoidberg* the best of luck with this project regardless on what he decides to do.



Or Bearded_Penguin perhaps 
Thanks though.

- - - Updated - - -

Baaa, re typing approximation of long post that I somehow accidentally killed.

- - - Updated - - -

Darn this thread moves fast!



kitten_pheonix said:


> I cant imagine why breeding a deformed animal is being considered. It may have other problems than just a physical appearance. Id seriously hope that if it were bred none of the offspring were sold.


You need to imagine harder. Seriously though, I have a strong interest in both genetics and in the embryonic development cycle. It's quite possible there is something interesting going on here, something that's poorly documented, if at all. It's the symmetry of the deformity that caught my interest, as most random deformities are far from symmetrical. This suggests that some mechanism in the development cycle took charge and left off (or reabsorbed) some non critical parts to get the job done, so to speak. Then again, it could be genetic. I'd like to know which it is, how do you suggest I go about finding out without breeding? 



PythonLegs said:


> Please dont start this discussion. It starts with a mong gecko, leads into jags, and ends with me getting another infraction for swearing at people.
> Best to just smile and nod.


A smile and a nod back to you, indeed much easier 



Dr-Zoidberg said:


> Fair enough if it had a crippling deformity that made life unpleasant , but seriously? It's missing a couple of toes and a tail! Wouldn't depriving it of the right to pro-create be morraly wrong? After all isn't that what we're here for.


At this point it's doing well, is active, and has no problems digging a cave to hide in and is generally doing what geckos do.



kitten_pheonix said:


> I hope that is a joke. Unless this animal has been checked over by a vet how would you know if there wasnt more serious internal issues? Not everyone/thing should breed. Especially when its defective.


If there are serious internal problems it won't reach breeding age. Every human carries some defective genes, including you. Does the application of your logic extend to yourself?



Lachie3112 said:


> If it has a serious problem, it's going to die pretty soon. If it doesn't die soon, then it doesn't have a serious problem.
> 
> When I used to live an area with wild green tree frogs, I once encountered a green tree frog with a deformed leg. It had the third section of it's rear leg missing and the foot on that leg (not sure if it was due to injury or birth defect). Over the years I lived there, I watched it thrive. Sure, it couldn't jump perfectly, and had a little difficulty climbing, but it managed to grow to a decent size, and I believe it even bred successfully.
> 
> It seems like a pretty cool little gecko, and it just seems during development life decided that in order for it to survive it would put more energy into vital organs, rather than a couple of toes and a nicer tail. I don't see a problem with the owner breeding it in future if it survives, as long as there's nothing missing or abnormal in its genes, I don't see why it couldn't produce healthy offspring.


It's the 'life decided' thing that has me intrigued, a process worth further study.

Frogs (OT) - They found in the end that the mutations were caused by a parasite.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com....formed-parasites-animals-environment-mutants/
http://outfog.com/2012/04/26/what-zombie-snails-and-teenage-mutant-frogs-tell-us-about-ecosystems/



kitten_pheonix said:


> Its not judgmental at all. Its logical.
> And a deformed animal is nothing to be jealous over so i dont really understand that statement. Mind informing me how im always negative?
> Theres a few people who have had exceptionaly nice geckos that are healthy show up in there collection that I have commented on but that has only ever been stating how nice the animal is. Defection isnt anything to be jealous over. And the intentional breeding of it is stupid.
> A few easy comparisons are defects in dogs due to stupid breedings.
> ...


You're suggesting that the quest for knowledge 'is stupid', and that's illogical.
For an easier comparison, take the 40% of the human population that has a defect in the MTHFR gene and the issues that causes. Unfortunately this gene just keeps getting passed along due to stupid breeding.



kitten_pheonix said:


> A deformed animal is not a "mutation"


It doesn't have to be, but it can be. There is a way to find out though, it's called breeding.



Dr-Zoidberg said:


> If a mutated gene causes deformities then it's a mutation, read a book or two






Lachie3112 said:


> A deformed animal should be able to produce normal offspring then, if it does not have a mutation.
> There's no harm in trying to breed it should it live that long.
> Remember, reptile changes/mutations through breeding take a LONG time to show up compared to mammals. Dogs such as German Shepherds have hip dysplasia due to systematic inbreeding over decades, breeding one gecko that has a deformity (at this stage something as trivial as a smaller than average tail and two missing toes) is not going to ruin the entire species.
> Saying you shouldn't breed it is like saying to someone missing a finger you can't ever have kids because you might create problems in the future.
> ...


If it breeds and the offspring are normal looking, they will certainly be healty, though can't rule out genetics without a further breeding cycle to check for recessive mutation.



Dr-Zoidberg said:


> It's my understanding that evolution begins with a single mutated gene, if that "mutated" animal fairs well and breeds there will be more and more of that variant showing up, in the end, changing the species/sub-species indefinately, Whether it happens in the environment or in captivity it's still a natural phenomenon.


Yep, the diversity of life as we know it, came about via mutation. No mutation = No life.



Cold-B-Hearts said:


> stop please, It could very well be a mutation or a deformity. A deformity would be lack of growth in the egg resulting in a animal with genetics nothing out of the ordinary. Although it looks like a deformity it could very well be a mutation.. are scaleless ball pythons, cornsnakes, death adders all deformed or do they have a mutation?
> 
> basically what im trying to say is something that looks like a deformity could (or couldn't) be a mutation; although without breeding it will remain unknown.
> Personally i wish Dr-Zoidberg the best of luck with this project regardless on what he decides to do.


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## Dr-Zoidberg (Oct 30, 2014)

Thanks for re-writing that post, it dissapered half way through reading it, good luck with your project as I'm also interested in evolution and genetics, keep us posted  I apologise if I got a bit off topic , although it seems you've taken it all in stride.


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## Bearded_Penguin (Oct 30, 2014)

Dr-Zoidberg said:


> Thanks for re-writing that post, it dissapered half way through reading it, good luck with your project as I'm also interested in evolution and genetics, keep us posted  I apologise if I got a bit off topic , although it seems you've taken it all in stride.



No probs, my first encounter with the automated ('---Updated---') last post editing mechanism. I saw my long message in the edit box and though 'baa what, not what I want' and promptly deleted it to type a new post.
Then I said, ummm, *Bugger!
*
The retype is pretty much the same.

I'll keep this post updated periodically with progress. I think it was all pretty much on topic, if not, at least closely related so no probs there.


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## CrazyNut (Oct 30, 2014)

Haha that's so damn cool! and cute lol very interesting! Thx for sharing bud.


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