# HELP fight back against the attack on reptile keeping in Qld



## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

The Qld government has proposed new laws that will have a severe negative impact on keepers of native wildlife (reptiles, many birds and invertebrates). It is important that you share this with as many people as you can and also help by

*Completing the survey *https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/QVHZZCD
*
Sign the petition *https://www.change.org/p/queensland-fauna-lobbyists-protecting-our-captive-fauna*

Making a submission


Contacting the Minister for Environment and the Great Barrier Reef, Minister for Science, and Minister for the Arts and your local member.

*


This is a link to an overview of the changes and how to lodge a submission. It also includes a survey. *Submissions close at 5pm on Friday 29 June 2018*

https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/plants-animals/wildlife-permits/framework-review

Details, including proposed prohibited species
https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/...animals/wildlife-permits/consultation-ris.pdf

Here are the details for the relevant minister, also contact your local representative. This is very important.

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/members/current/list/MemberDetails?ID=3451737636
https://www.facebook.com/leeanneenochmp/
https://twitter.com/LeeanneEnoch


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

They also need a major kick in the guts about the lack of consultation and the short time allowed for submissions. This is totally unacceptable for such a big change in the regulations which will affect so many people.

Jamie


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## longirostris (Jun 1, 2018)

Good work with this Cris, lets hope you can get some people to actually get involved. Can you find out if submissions will be accepted and considered by non residents of Queensland, for those of us who are interstate and want to contribute?? I emailed DES yesterday on this so they could very well come back to me in the next few days but as Jamie quite rightly points out, the deadline for submissions is very short. 

Mark Hawker


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

I believe there is a meeting this weekend about this, but most of the calls to action have been on Fb... I'm sure you can track it down there...

Jamie


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## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

This seems like a hard battle, some of the new changes are good too. As I understand, it should allow all legal reptiles to be traded in petshops. Having online records makes sense. I was not familiar with the old bird species list, but they are supposed to be getting more species added. I have only read about half of it so far, they seem to have everything narrowed down to a number of options.

Banning perenties and a few other species that are not commonly kept is probably not going to bother many people. According to their figures only 5% of wildlife licence holders will need the most expensive licence.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

Banning the keeping of Perenties makes no sense, and it will bother those who have them now. It is bureaucratic overkill and just because you don't think it will "bother" many people cris, is no reason to sit back and let it happen. These apparently arbitary imposts on keepers need to be justified. If it's a safety issue, for example, a large Lacie is just as dangerous as a Perentie. No government department should make any decision that cannot be justified objectively, as a matter of principle. Perenties represent a big investment in time and money to buy, and over the years, raise and house. There is NO justification for them to be arbitarily banned at the stroke of an ignorant bureaucratic pen.

Jamie


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## Neil j (Jun 1, 2018)

You know if the yanks got hold of our perenti’s there’s nothing left they need or haven’t got.

I don’t see the new regs as price hikes on the standard licence. Maybe they are underfunded to preform inspections ect.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

Neil j said:


> You know if the yanks got hold of our perenti’s there’s nothing left they need or haven’t got.
> 
> I don’t see the new regs as price hikes on the standard licence. Maybe they are underfunded to preform inspections ect.



What have the Yanks got to do with this?

Jamie


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## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

pythoninfinite said:


> Banning the keeping of Perenties makes no sense, and it will bother those who have them now. It is bureaucratic overkill and just because you don't think it will "bother" many people cris, is no reason to sit back and let it happen. These apparently arbitary imposts on keepers need to be justified. If it's a safety issue, for example, a large Lacie is just as dangerous as a Perentie. No government department should make any decision that cannot be justified objectively, as a matter of principle. Perenties represent a big investment in time and money to buy, and over the years, raise and house. There is NO justification for them to be arbitarily banned at the stroke of an ignorant bureaucratic pen.
> 
> Jamie



Yeah, I plan to write a detailed submission, even though I doubt they will read it. I spent lots of time trying to have some postive influence on the recent vegetation laws, but they simply didn't care about me or even large well funded lobby groups. My local member is a Green, they probably have a policy to tax white people for breathing, SFA chance they care about me keeping a perentie.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

You might find a few animal libbers amongst the Greens, and they might be very unhappy about any fauna in captivity...

Jamie


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## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

pythoninfinite said:


> You might find a few animal libbers amongst the Greens, and they might be very unhappy about any fauna in captivity...
> 
> Jamie



Yeah, I have avoided making a meeting with them to discuss vegetation, firearm and wildlife laws. Despite the fact I have forgotten more than they know about conservation in the time it takes to drink a carton of beer lol. I have no respect for watermelons and don't want an assault charge on my record.
[doublepost=1527832077,1527831071][/doublepost]


pythoninfinite said:


> What have the Yanks got to do with this?
> 
> Jamie



They have rights, liberties and freedom, we do not have much of that going on here...


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## Harry89 (Jun 1, 2018)

I find it disgusting that after keeping an animal for however many years, we are now told they are a different class and care level and will require a higher cost for no reason. I could understand them implementing such a process if they actually did household checks and any research work on the history of those keeping licences (criminal or otherwise), actively monitoring the population requires funds, this is just going to have people breed and trade illegally in higher quantities. They are punishing those who do the right thing and are registered, not the problems of black market import and improper housing and care. Not to mention limiting people now to 5 animals, I am only a basic keeper but have 4 animals myself, apparently one of which will now be a Class 2 for no reason, I want to know how they researched what will be classed as a 'specialist' reptile because the blanket approach they have taken is far from accurate!

I feel for everyone on here with an extensive collection, this is all going to hurt you the hardest.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 1, 2018)

Not again...


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## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

I think if they want to compete with other states they should have SA style laws for native wildlife in captivity and similar to Tasmania for wildife harvest.


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## longirostris (Jun 1, 2018)

Jamie is 100% right with his comment about being defeatist. Everybody knows that the proposed new regulations need further tweeking and that there are certain proposals within the framework review that are ok and quite a few that are draconian and unfair. Yet, I fear that this will all get too hard for too many people or others will have the "it doesn't really affect me so I'LL be alright" attitude and as a result everybody will sit back and do nothing and just whinge. I hate to say it, but do nothing and you get what you deserve. There should be a huge effort to drum up as many QLD keepers and other interested and affected parties as possible to make sure your voices are heard. I don't even live in QLD and I have already contacted DES and asked if I can do a submission and if I can will it actually be considered. At least DES respond to my inquiries, which is more than I can say for NPWS. I have been invited to make a submission by DES and assured that it will be considered as part of the review process. I think if there are people out here that are putting their hands up to fight for your rights in QLD that are not even QLDers then the least those of you that are living in QLD can do is make sure you have a voice in this process too. Don't sit back and do nothing. Have your say.

Mark Hawker


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 1, 2018)

This needs a concerted effort by as many people as possible,you can beat these boofocrats by going straight to the minister.
We had the NSW minister back off when 1,000's of people emailed him complaining about the over the top restrictions proposed trying to make pet keepers have to follow pet shop rules and regs.Check out Pet Owners R NOT Pet Shops on face book for some ideas


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## kalo1993 (Jun 1, 2018)

Since spiders are being added to the licensing system does this mean you will need a permit to catch a daddy long leg? lol or is it only tarantulas? on a serious note i keep a couple of boigas which will be class 2 i believe? What a joke!! they are just as easy to keep as pythons, are not dangerous and least concern so i have no idea why they would be class 2.


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## cris (Jun 1, 2018)

What is our unified message? I for one oppose than ban on perenties and thorny devils, that might have some support?

I also want every least concern mammal added to class 1 and every other mammal on class 2. Collection permits based on sustainability with any valid proposal a $1000 fee per property for wild collection of all species. Bag limits similar to fishing rules for harvest of eastern grey kangaroos and various other native animals that are currently shot and left to rot under DMPs or illegal killing. The ability to sell skins and use meat for non commercial purposes under DMPs. The legal ability to move protected species a distance under 500m without a permit when the species is a threat or nuisance to people, property or livestock. Allowing the use of cast nets and spear fishing in freshwater to eliminate turtle by catch.

Plenty of other things to add. Not to sure how many others will be willing to back many of my ideas as they go into more rational and less emotional realms.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jun 2, 2018)

kalo1993 said:


> Since spiders are being added to the licensing system


Oh great... Well, looks like I'm selling all my T's now.


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## RoryBreaker (Jun 2, 2018)

Heres today's propaganda in the media.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/po...k-market-in-rare-animals-20180530-p4zihc.html


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## Stompsy (Jun 5, 2018)

Did anyone go to the meeting held over the weekend?


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## Mick666 (Jun 5, 2018)

why would BHP's be cat 1, and woma's cat 2? that doesn't make sense to me. And pygmy pythons weren't on the list that I could see. 

I filled out the survey, going to look for petitions now.
[doublepost=1528157474,1528153826][/doublepost]email sent to minster, thanks to Cris for the links.


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## Bushfire (Jun 7, 2018)

In some ways Im abit surprised that this issue hasn't really generated much discussion on this forum as opposed to others.


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## longirostris (Jun 7, 2018)

Bushfire said:


> In some ways Im abit surprised that this issue hasn't really generated much discussion on this forum as opposed to others.


I am in total agreement with you. I am not sure people really understand just exactly what is at stake. What surprises me is why nobody has even talked about a petition or a simple yes/no vote on whether we support the proposals. As I said in my earlier post on this thread if we don't say something or take a stand, we will get these regulations. That will have a huge impact on all of us, not just QLDer's because MOST of what they are trying to push through is targeted to take away what we love and for some of us have been involved in for a lifetime. This will have a ripple effect that will be felt right around the country. We will all be affected by these proposals if they become law. 

We should be running a petition through APS and being as vocal in our opposition as we can be. We should have as many members as possible sign a petition saying NO to the proposals. Make no mistake, this is the first step in the process of taking away our interest, of making it harder for us to keep native animals including reptiles, amphibians and invertebrates as pets.

Lets talk about this. The more people talking about it the better. Be informed. Have a read of the ridiculous article that Rorybreaker posted up for us on the bottom of the previous page. If that doesn't get you hopping mad then I don't know what will. Go to my facebook page and read my response to the journalist at the Brisbane Times who actually wrote the garbage that was published. This is what we need to do. If we all get involved then we will have a big voice and we will NOT be ignored. 

Mark Hawker


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## Mick666 (Jun 8, 2018)

cris said:


> Having online records makes sense.



Only if it's very user friendly. I've helped people apply for their recreational wildlife license with the new "connect" system, what used to take a few short minutes, now takes over an hour. screens don't load properly, it's overly complicated, payments don't go through and the page expires. it's a nightmare.
[doublepost=1528409731,1528409545][/doublepost]Is there anything else I can do? I sent an email to the minister, filled out the survey. any other suggestions? (I don't have access to facebook though.) The deadline is approaching very quickly.


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## Stompsy (Jun 8, 2018)

I'd like to know the outcome of the meeting over the weekend... although the pictures didn't show a huge turnout... and to be honest, I doubt many people even know about this.


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## longirostris (Jun 8, 2018)

Mick666 said:


> Only if it's very user friendly. I've helped people apply for their recreational wildlife license with the new "connect" system, what used to take a few short minutes, now takes over an hour. screens don't load properly, it's overly complicated, payments don't go through and the page expires. it's a nightmare.
> [doublepost=1528409731,1528409545][/doublepost]Is there anything else I can do? I sent an email to the minister, filled out the survey. any other suggestions? (I don't have access to facebook though.) The deadline is approaching very quickly.



What you have done is fantastic. If everybody did this then we wouldn't have to worry about this going through. All you can do now is keep talking about it making sure that as many people as possible know about it and get them to do something about it. 

Is there any way that we can set up some sort of petition on this forum that members can add their names to, saying that we don't agree with the proposed changes. I am sure that would be helpful and a way some people can express their concern.


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## Mick666 (Jun 8, 2018)

I shall be spreading the news to whoever will listen


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## longirostris (Jun 8, 2018)

cris said:


> This seems like a hard battle, some of the new changes are good too. As I understand, it should allow all legal reptiles to be traded in petshops. Having online records makes sense. I was not familiar with the old bird species list, but they are supposed to be getting more species added. I have only read about half of it so far, they seem to have everything narrowed down to a number of options.
> 
> Banning perenties and a few other species that are not commonly kept is probably not going to bother many people. According to their figures only 5% of wildlife licence holders will need the most expensive licence.



What about the people that it does bother. One day you may be in that 5% category but guess what you would have already missed the boat because you don't keep Perenties NOW so it doesn't matter. 

The online system in NSW is totally inflexible and certainly from my point of view not at all user friendly, it is out of date with the species names, it does not allow for out of the ordinary comments or corrections that a keeper may want to make, there is no process where off schedule species held can be recorded. I get told to put the off schedule species on a paper return. What a joke. We have a system in place that can only be described as dysfunctional or at best hybrid. A little bit of electronic and a little bit of paper.


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 8, 2018)

A petition's already in place. I've heard that apparently in WA there's going to be a few changes in the new year. I dread to think what will happen.


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## Bl69aze (Jun 8, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> A petition's already in place. I've heard that apparently in WA there's going to be a few changes in the new year. I dread to think what will happen.


Unfortunately they won’t accept a 3rd party petition or something and has to be shown via physical letters, even emails just get snuffed under the rug


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## cris (Jun 8, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> A petition's already in place.



Where is the petition? 

This is where the petition probably should be http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/petitions/current-epetitions



longirostris said:


> What about the people that it does bother. One day you may be in that 5% category but guess what you would have already missed the boat because you don't keep Perenties NOW so it doesn't matter.



Not sure where you get the idea that it doesn't bother me. I am in that 5% category and was probably going to get some perenties in the future as either the only species I would keep or possibly along with a couple others. If the laws get through, I will probably stop keeping reptiles. I have not given up and will do as much as I can, I just doubt it will end well.

I still haven't finished reading through the proposal, but will have time to do that next week.


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## longirostris (Jun 8, 2018)

cris said:


> Where is the petition?
> 
> This is where the petition probably should be http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/petitions/current-epetitions
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting the info on Petitions Cris, its great to know. It would be a shame to see you and any others leave reptile keeping as I am sure you have so much to offer. There is so much more to learn and private keepers are a huge part of that. Earlier today I was speaking about this issue with a friend who happens to be a Phd qualified professional herpetologist and he pointed out that in the last 30 years the knowledge bank of herpetology, reptile physiology and in particular reproductive physiology has increased exponentially almost entirely as a result of the activities of private keepers and breeders. These proposals if implemented will most definitely slam the brakes on as far as further advances in reptile science is concerned, if only for the fact that people will leave private keeping as you have said you will do. Let's make sure that doesn't happen by uniting and fighting the parts of these proposals that are designed to shut down peoples interests in keeping native animals for what ever reason. 

Mark Hawker


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 8, 2018)

Thanks for letting me know. I was not aware of that. The petition I linked was being shared on a WA Facebook group.


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## Bushfire (Jun 9, 2018)

I would have a guess and say the group that setup the 3rd party petition probably werent going to use the petition in that way as such. They would probably use it to strengthen their position with the dept in saying look we have over x amount of members we represent and x amount back our position.


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## cris (Jun 13, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> A petition's already in place. I've heard that apparently in WA there's going to be a few changes in the new year. I dread to think what will happen.


I just noticed the link in your post, I have now added it to the OP.


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## Murph_BTK (Jun 17, 2018)

I was watching a YT vid and he was saying they want to change the qld laws to only allow 5 reptiles on your permit and charging $700 for 3yrs for a permit thats up from $70 for 5yrs. I so hope this isnt the case!! Tho its YT so i haven't read to much into it either..

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## cris (Jun 17, 2018)

Murph_BTK said:


> I was watching a YT vid and he was saying they want to change the qld laws to only allow 5 reptiles on your permit and charging $700 for 3yrs for a permit thats up from $70 for 5yrs. I so hope this isnt the case!! Tho its YT so i haven't read to much into it either..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



That is just hype, the licence is actually only $682.90 for 3 years. All the details are linked in my first post.


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## Elcho (Jun 17, 2018)

White lip and emerald tree monitors are prohibited. There are going to be a few mad breeders that spent big dollars. In general I think it's moving in the right direction. There is a few issues though.


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## Buggster (Jun 17, 2018)

Mick666 said:


> why would BHP's be cat 1, and woma's cat 2? that doesn't make sense to me. And pygmy pythons weren't on the list that I could see.
> 
> I filled out the survey, going to look for petitions now.
> [doublepost=1528157474,1528153826][/doublepost]email sent to minster, thanks to Cris for the links.



I would imagine it’s because Womas are listed as ‘Endangered’ as BHPs are not. Does seem rather silly however, given how many Womas exist in captivity and how well they do in captivity


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## Elcho (Jun 17, 2018)

I think some of the big breeders have probably not helped the situation. Don't have a full time job but selling reptiles worth 5k+, the government want their cut. This will drive a lot of people to have off the book reptiles. I don't see people with 10 reptiles paying $700 for 3 years. Also a lot of reptiles being release into the wild because they didn't have the right license. A lot of the common low end reptiles will not be bred because breeders will want the return on increase costs


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## cris (Jun 17, 2018)

Elcho said:


> In general I think it's moving in the right direction.



They are going to make it legal to breed hybrids, albinos etc. that will probably win some support.


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## Elcho (Jun 17, 2018)

It's said that hybrids are still illegal but morphs will be allowed. It's already being done on a huge scale so at least they can now be labeled correctly.


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## longirostris (Jun 17, 2018)

Elcho said:


> I think some of the big breeders have probably not helped the situation. Don't have a full time job but selling reptiles worth 5k+, the government want their cut. This will drive a lot of people to have off the book reptiles. I don't see people with 10 reptiles paying $700 for 3 years. Also a lot of reptiles being release into the wild because they didn't have the right license. A lot of the common low end reptiles will not be bred because breeders will want the return on increase costs



Yes I think you are right, so how is this "moving in the right direction". It is without doubt the biggest retrograde step by a wildlife authority in any state of Australia since wildlife licensing was first introduced over 30 years go. How can any changes that push people underground and increase the risk of poaching and black market activities be a step in the right direction. The focus of these changes is just ridiculous. There are hidden agendas in play at DES driven by animal rights loonies that should not be there and the sooner the minister responsible pulls the plug on these outrageous proposals the better off everyone will be including the wildlife.

Just as a matter of interest how big do you think the market in Australia is for $5000.00 reptiles?? This market and the market generally in Australia for reptiles is tiny compared to overseas. There are very few people making enough money out of reptiles in this country to say they are actually earning a living. The few that are in it as a business though, generally struggle just trying to cover operating costs. I can think of only two or three individuals around the whole country who actually earn enough through their efforts breeding and selling reptiles that they can pay themselves a modest wage and not actually have to work another job. These people are beyond reproach as far as the legality of their operation is concerned. One of these people is the current supplier/source for most of the Moloch's that go into wildlife displays in zoos and wildlife/reptile parks around Australia, which means that no one needs to go and collect Moloch's from the wild for zoos etc any more. The ones being bred are actually better adapted to display. What is really ironic is that the original breeding group for the successful breeding operation now based in SA actually came out of QLD, yes QLD and yes perfectly legitimately on proper purchase receipts and permits and with full knowledge of the same organisation (DES) that now wants to ban them. Talk about trying to piddle on the fire after the house has burnt down. What is really sad is that they don't even recognize or realize the positive outcome and the longer term even more positive ripple effect of this purchase of a breeding group of Molochs by a South Australian breeder from a QLD breeder all those years ago. Only made possible by sensible wildlife regulations that allowed for the keeping of the species in that state (QLD) when virtually every other state would not and did not allow it

For me over the years QLD has been a pillar for sensible regulation of its wildlife activities albeit with its problems some of which they say they are trying to address with these proposals. That sensibility is now seriously threatened with probably some of the worst proposals ever suggested to fix a system that largely does not need terribly much tweeking at all. The stated aim of these changes is to shut down an activity (the illegal taking of wildlife from the wild) that is almost universally agreed by experts to have little if any impact on the wildlife populations they are proposing the changes for.

There is a lot of QLDer's money being spent to peddle an agenda that has as its route a biased and flawed view of a cause and effect problem that I have already said largely doesn't exist or is overstated in its impacts on wildlife populations affected.

Mark Hawker


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## cris (Jun 18, 2018)

longirostris said:


> The focus of these changes is just ridiculous. There are hidden agendas in play at DES driven by animal rights loonies that should not be there and the sooner the minister responsible pulls the plug on these outrageous proposals the better off everyone will be including the wildlife.



There was one of these idiots giving a presentation at the sustainable use of wildlife conference. If you heard that you would not think it was a hidden agenda. I don't think it is just animal rights though, they genuinely see almost any use of wildlife as a problem that needs to be restricted as much as possible. If they could completely stop it, I'm sure they would.

The other thing to keep in mind is that if they didn't make up problems that don't exist they would not have a job.


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## Elcho (Jun 18, 2018)

longirostris said:


> Yes I think you are right, so how is this "moving in the right direction". It is without doubt the biggest retrograde step by a wildlife authority in any state of Australia since wildlife licensing was first introduced over 30 years go. How can any changes that push people underground and increase the risk of poaching and black market activities be a step in the right direction. The focus of these changes is just ridiculous. There are hidden agendas in play at DES driven by animal rights loonies that should not be there and the sooner the minister responsible pulls the plug on these outrageous proposals the better off everyone will be including the wildlife.
> 
> Just as a matter of interest how big do you think the market in Australia is for $5000.00 reptiles?? This market and the market generally in Australia for reptiles is tiny compared to overseas. There are very few people making enough money out of reptiles in this country to say they are actually earning a living. The few that are in it as a business though, generally struggle just trying to cover operating costs. I can think of only two or three individuals around the whole country who actually earn enough through their efforts breeding and selling reptiles that they can pay themselves a modest wage and not actually have to work another job. These people are beyond reproach as far as the legality of their operation is concerned. One of these people is the current supplier/source for most of the Moloch's that go into wildlife displays in zoos and wildlife/reptile parks around Australia, which means that no one needs to go and collect Moloch's from the wild for zoos etc any more. The ones being bred are actually better adapted to display. What is really ironic is that the original breeding group for the successful breeding operation now based in SA actually came out of QLD, yes QLD and yes perfectly legitimately on proper purchase receipts and permits and with full knowledge of the same organisation (DES) that now wants to ban them. Talk about trying to piddle on the fire after the house has burnt down. What is really sad is that they don't even recognize or realize the positive outcome and the longer term even more positive ripple effect of this purchase of a breeding group of Molochs by a South Australian breeder from a QLD breeder all those years ago. Only made possible by sensible wildlife regulations that allowed for the keeping of the species in that state (QLD) when virtually every other state would not and did not allow it
> 
> ...


The "market" for higher end morphs are still there and I know of several people that sit at home on welfare and breed reptiles. The step in the right direction is stopping people paying $65 and going out to buy the biggest monitors or pythons.


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## cris (Jun 18, 2018)

Elcho said:


> The "market" for higher end morphs are still there and I know of several people that sit at home on welfare and breed reptiles. The step in the right direction is stopping people paying $65 and going out to buy the biggest monitors or pythons.



So paying about 10X more for the government to do nothing for you and having perenties banned solves exactly what problem?


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## Scutellatus (Jun 18, 2018)

Elcho said:


> The step in the right direction is stopping people paying $65 and going out to buy the biggest monitors or pythons.


Let them do I say.
Natural selection at its finest.

Seriously though, increasing the cost isn't going to do a thing these days. It isn't hard for someone to scrape together $650 to get that big snake or monitor.
Scrapping the licence fees altogether would be better, considering they don't use them to police the system anyway, it just goes to the government coffers.
Now they are going digital there will be less expenditure in the department on wages, it is just a cash grab.

I believe this change has come about partly because of greedy pet shop owners wanting to sell more species of reptile. I was talking to one the other day who was happy because she will be able to have more species on the shelf. I wonder if she anticipated the licence fees going up and then keeper numbers going down.


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## Mick666 (Jul 6, 2018)

So the deadline has been and gone. Has anyone here heard any news?
[doublepost=1530846821,1530760649][/doublepost]I received a response. I've tried to attach the file.


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## Murph_BTK (Jul 6, 2018)

Mick666 said:


> So the deadline has been and gone. Has anyone here heard any news?
> [doublepost=1530846821,1530760649][/doublepost]I received a response. I've tried to attach the file.


So its a case by case on the reptile?? I own GTP rough scales and the uncommon yellow spotted monitor is my case going to be heaps more ... wait & see i guess.. lets hope they leave it all the same.. 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jul 6, 2018)

Progress has been made together with a stay of execution.

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/petitions/petition-details?id=2964


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## Mick666 (Jul 17, 2018)

signed the petition.
[doublepost=1531788887,1531088493][/doublepost]Just sent my response to the response to my letter to the department...

I'm not the best at writing letters, I get side tracked a bit and ramble on, but hopefully I asked the right questions. 

Hi, I have read the response to my letter and there are a few things that haven’t been addressed. Such as how increasing the fees is going to have a positive impact on poaching from the wild. To me that is ridiculous and will have the exact opposite effect. How is restricting captive breeding going to help wild populations? I would really like a detailed explanation for this, because again this makes zero sense. I think if we really cared about our native wildlife, a step in the right direction would be reducing land clearing in sensitive areas and reducing populations of feral cats. Has anyone even thought of the idea of restricting pet cat ownership? Seriously? And why not? The impact is huge, and for some reason cats are acceptable to keep as pets completely unregulated, and yet we’re worried about the impact of people producing native reptiles. Really? How is that at all logical? I could have a hundred cats destroying the countryside and no one cares, but if I reproduce a threatened native species I have to pay a huge fee and have an advanced licence. How about we start making cat owners pay a fee? I think if cat owners had to buy a licence to keep their exotic, nature destroying vermin, maybe the problem could be slightly reduced, and we wouldn’t have to charge so much for people to produce native wildlife, because the millions of cat licences would be a far greater income for the department than a few thousand reptile permits. Is there any explanation as to why cats are not regulated? I don’t think that’s an unreasonable question.

I am going to be greatly effected by the massive jump in fees, as I own over 40 pythons and intend to breed some of them every year. I don’t make a profit from them, I don’t even come close to covering my expenses. The impact analysis was way off. I only own one Woma python at the moment, but I’ll still need an advanced licence because of the number of snakes I have. So I’ll be transitioning from $78.60 for five years to $682.90 for three, that’s a much larger increase than the $2.10 from the impact analysis. I think the impact analysis is dishonest and misleading. Again the logic behind the restricted species list is flawed, I would love an explanation of how reducing captive numbers and breeding programs will help declining wild populations. That makes absolutely no sense to the point of alarm bells going off, because the only explanation I can think of is some strange hidden agenda. Maybe there’s money to be made by keeping species on the threatened list, I don’t know, but it’s completely illogical. I hope someone takes the time to read this and actually take into consideration the points I’ve made, because this affects me a great deal and there seems to be no rational thought going into these decisions that I’ve seen.


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## longirostris (Jul 17, 2018)

Mick666 said:


> signed the petition.
> [doublepost=1531788887,1531088493][/doublepost]Just sent my response to the response to my letter to the department...
> 
> I'm not the best at writing letters, I get side tracked a bit and ramble on, but hopefully I asked the right questions.
> ...



Hey Mick,

Do what I did. Send your commentary to the Minister responsible. Ms Leanne Enoch. DES are not interested in what you have to say. The only way to bring pressure to this process is to go straight to the top. She needs to be bombarded with people expressing their concerns. But that is the problem here. There just simply is not enough of you in QLD expressing your concerns and so DES will get what they want and the hobby in QLD and elsewhere will suffer for it. You need to form herp groups with strong membership that can express concerns with a collective voice, but unfortunately I think for you guys it is probably too late. As someone said in another post on this forum recently there is just too much apathy up there and an attitude of stuff everybody else so long as I'm alright. It is easy to regulate a hobby or activity when there is little or no voice against it.

Unfortunately in my case because I am not a resident of QLD I pretty much got a response from DES along the lines of thanks for your submission but it is not what we asked for so we will be proceeding with what we are planning for. In other words go and get knicked you haven't responded to the review in the format we asked you to so your comments are not relevant to the review and public consultation process.

There's not much more I can do except resend my submission to the minister again with some further comments about the poor response from DES, but at the end of the day I wonder just how many people up there have even bothered to actually voice their concerns through a submission process apart from yourself. We are not going to even get a look in if there are only a handful of people lodging submissions. There needs to be hundreds if not thousands before your authorities and Government are going to take any notice and quite frankly as I said I don't believe that has, is or even will happen. As I said in a post on this subject some weeks ago elsewhere on this forum, reptile keepers in QLD will get exactly what DES are proposing if you don't mobilise and fight. Its great that some of you such as yourself are, but unfortunately I fear it is all too little and too late. 

Mark Hawker


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## Mick666 (Jul 17, 2018)

Yeah, I sent my first letter to her, but I think she may have hand balled it off to an assistant or something. The response came from someone completely different. I don't think they give a rats' about the environment, it's all about getting votes. Maybe I should write to her again. I don't know what to do really, they seem to have their minds made up. it makes me upset when people in charge have no investment in the decisions they make that severely effect others who have no control. I don't have the internet at home so I'm limited to what I can do in regards to spreading the word and organizing other keepers to join the fight, but I'm doing what I can.


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## longirostris (Jul 17, 2018)

Mick666 said:


> Yeah, I sent my first letter to her, but I think she may have hand balled it off to an assistant or something. The response came from someone completely different. I don't think they give a rats' about the environment, it's all about getting votes. Maybe I should write to her again. I don't know what to do really, they seem to have their minds made up. it makes me upset when people in charge have no investment in the decisions they make that severely effect others who have no control. I don't have the internet at home so I'm limited to what I can do in regards to spreading the word and organizing other keepers to join the fight, but I'm doing what I can.



Mick, 

That's exactly what I got. My email hand balled to DES, so what, send it to her again, along with your comments here, they are extremely valid and very pertinent. You make a strong case for these people actually taking a step back and actually having a look at what they are proposing. Don't give up, you are doing a great job. I wish there were more of you having a crack. 

Mark Hawker


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## Mick666 (Jul 17, 2018)

Thanks mate. I will forward my response to her.


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## LizardLad (Jul 18, 2018)

If you have Facebook, like and share the site “Queensland Fauna Lobbyists” they are trying to mobilise people and are regularly posting the link to fill out the petition. There’s already a group of people fighting
https://m.facebook.com/Qldfaunalobbyists/


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## Mick666 (Aug 27, 2018)

Yeah, I've signed their petition.
[doublepost=1535331000,1531861243][/doublepost]here is the latest response from the minister for environment...
again, she has hand balled it off to some assistant.


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## marcus0002 (Jan 26, 2019)

No updates since August?


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 26, 2019)

Mick666 said:


> So the deadline has been and gone. Has anyone here heard any news?
> [doublepost=1530846821,1530760649][/doublepost]I received a response. I've tried to attach the file.


So Woma's are "near threatened"? they are common as muck down here,$100-200 each. Where do these people get their "facts"?


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## Buggster (Jan 26, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> So Woma's are "near threatened"? they are common as muck down here,$100-200 each. Where do these people get their "facts"?




They are, in the wild at least. Prolific in captivity. I reckon there’s more in captivity at this point ‍. It’s a bit of a stupid rule given how many are kept by private keepers


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 26, 2019)

Buggster said:


> They are, in the wild at least. Prolific in captivity. I reckon there’s more in captivity at this point ‍. It’s a bit of a stupid rule given how many are kept by private keepers


This is part of the reason why hobbyists should not be limited to access to animals like this. They are keeping a backup supply if needed in the future


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## million78280 (Feb 16, 2019)

Hey I was wondering do you need to live in queensland for have a RWL license ?


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## Imported_tuatara (Feb 17, 2019)

million78280 said:


> Hey I was wondering do you need to live in queensland for have a RWL license ?


i mean...name wise? yeah, i think so. species on the queensland's RWL? no, not for most.


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## million78280 (Feb 17, 2019)

Imported_tuatara said:


> i mean...name wise? yeah, i think so. species on the queensland's RWL? no, not for most.


Well I just wonder if you can apply for a RWL while living in an other state so you can buy reptile in queensland ?


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## Pauls_Pythons (Feb 17, 2019)

million78280 said:


> Well I just wonder if you can apply for a RWL while living in an other state so you can buy reptile in queensland ?



If not in QLD but you want to but an animal from there you use an import permit system and the seller completes an export permit. Only gets complicated if you are in SA or WA


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## million78280 (Feb 18, 2019)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> If not in QLD but you want to but an animal from there you use an import permit system and the seller completes an export permit. Only gets complicated if you are in SA or WA


ok cheers


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## Kyle Hamilton (Jun 16, 2019)

South australia have taken up on their regulation changes ,upped fees a little by the looks and moved allot of monitors etc down to basic and some up to specialist ,They have given up on the idea of getting sellers onto a dealers license by numbers etc like NSW and QLD were trying to do ,its too hard and they know it .Getting many of the small monitors on basic license makes sense ,lace monitors and scrub pythons will be on specialist. Seems that some one in south australian wildlife licensing has common sense.


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## cris (Jun 16, 2019)

Has anyone got any news on what is happening with these proposed Qld laws?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jun 16, 2019)

cris said:


> Has anyone got any news on what is happening with these proposed Qld laws?


All I know is it doesn't affect me.. I was worried it was going to as I keep and breed Manning River turtles which are not on ANY state's list so I contacted the DEHP and spoke to them on the phone for 20 minutes about whether or not I'm going to have to upgrade to a restricted licence... they couldn't confirm anything over the phone then and there, didn't even know what a Manning River turtle was so they asked me a bunch of questions and said they'd call me back.. 2 hours later they did and their response was this... "Hi Kev, regarding our earlier conversation, it appears the Manning River turtle only naturally occurs in NSW and therefore it is a species of least concern to us here in QLD. You are allowed to keep an unlimited number of them and continue to breed them on your basic QLD wildlife licence."

Happy days.


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## SheWentMad (Jul 18, 2019)

When it comes to pythons and how many you keep... this confuses the Sh*t out of me. There is nothing about all of this new system that actually makes sense.


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 18, 2019)

SheWentMad said:


> When it comes to pythons and how many you keep... this confuses the Sh*t out of me. There is nothing about all of this new system that actually makes sense.


of course it doesn't make sense. It was designed by boofocrats with no sense of reality . They live in a plastic bubble


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## SheWentMad (Jul 19, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> of course it doesn't make sense. It was designed by boofocrats with no sense of reality . They live in a plastic bubble


Not wrong there! Lets hope someone with brains jumps in and magically sorts it all out


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## WeirdzandBeardz (Jul 19, 2019)

Just as an FYI, I've spoken to a few people who are involved with the QLD licensing lobby (and I have had a limited role in the NSW licensing consultation). As I understand it the new QLD system will implement a 3 level license system with the first two levels having number and breeding restrictions and the last level license being unrestricted (higher costs as you go up a license). Not sure how vens will fit into that specifically with caps. They will also have class levels, QLD is going to be getting a species list that will probably look like an updated version of the NSW list with some additional species included. As I understand it they've got a draft list, but they still have no idea what is kept up there so it's going to get refined as they go because they don't know the half of what is held privately. 

I also saw on Facebook that there is going to be a new graduated ven system in QLD that basically mirrors NSW, but with different species in the first level ven license category.


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## SheWentMad (Jul 19, 2019)

From what I've seen a basic license will be a limit of 5 reptiles with no breeding at a cost of $50 something and then it jumps to over $600.00 for 2nd stage license?
Even when we haven't been breeding we have had over 5 reptiles (pythons & lizards) in monster display enclosures just for the joy of having them. I could be completely wrong


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 20, 2019)

WeirdzandBeardz said:


> Just as an FYI, I've spoken to a few people who are involved with the QLD licensing lobby (and I have had a limited role in the NSW licensing consultation). As I understand it the new QLD system will implement a 3 level license system with the first two levels having number and breeding restrictions and the last level license being unrestricted (higher costs as you go up a license). Not sure how vens will fit into that specifically with caps. They will also have class levels, QLD is going to be getting a species list that will probably look like an updated version of the NSW list with some additional species included. As I understand it they've got a draft list, but they still have no idea what is kept up there so it's going to get refined as they go because they don't know the half of what is held privately.
> 
> I also saw on Facebook that there is going to be a new graduated ven system in QLD that basically mirrors NSW, but with different species in the first level ven license category.


Yes Mitchell, but as you know from your involvement here it wont be easy. Plus the Qld system as offered so far is a punish on keepers, the low numbers permitted to be kept with restrictions on breeding etcetera with massive punitive costs for keeping slightly higher quantities will either deter future hobbyists or force people underground,neither of which are good for the hobby or nature.


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## Kyle Hamilton (Jul 20, 2019)

Just an excuse in each state to double the cost of licenses for keepers ,restricting numbers in any state wont work ,neither will deeming keepers to be amatuer or commercial sellers ,just easier to double fees in QLD,NSW ,SA etc .then throw a few morcels to the peasants in reptiles they can keep as a sweetener to the empty pockets


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jul 21, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> Yes Mitchell, but as you know from your involvement here it wont be easy. Plus the Qld system as offered so far is a punish on keepers, the low numbers permitted to be kept with restrictions on breeding etcetera with massive punitive costs for keeping slightly higher quantities will either deter future hobbyists or force people underground,neither of which are good for the hobby or nature.


The easy way around the QLD crap law changes is to keep species not native to QLD.


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 21, 2019)

Kyle Hamilton said:


> Just an excuse in each state to double the cost of licenses for keepers ,restricting numbers in any state wont work ,neither will deeming keepers to be amatuer or commercial sellers ,just easier to double fees in QLD,NSW ,SA etc .then throw a few morcels to the peasants in reptiles they can keep as a sweetener to the empty pockets


In NSW we managed to force the Govt to back down on their ridiculous proposal through sheer force of numbers. It is hoped the Qld people rise up in huge numbers as well, or else other states will believe they have the power to force through draconian regulations and we will all suffer as will the critters we are trying to protect


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## Kyle Hamilton (Jul 22, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> In NSW we managed to force the Govt to back down on their ridiculous proposal through sheer force of numbers. It is hoped the Qld people rise up in huge numbers as well, or else other states will believe they have the power to force through draconian regulations and we will all suffer as will the critters we are trying to protect


Get where your coming from ,but its like i said ,they are all doing it at the same time .All put the worst proposals forward first that they know are unworkable and in the end each state will roughly double the fees which is what its all about ,just revenue and legitamising the actions to get it done. In queensland they will just give the fees a big lift and throw a few bones and those in the firing line will think the big bad ranger has gone away ,always put the worst scenario first and the starving peasants think the end result is not so bad


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 22, 2019)

Kyle Hamilton said:


> Get where your coming from ,but its like i said ,they are all doing it at the same time .All put the worst proposals forward first that they know are unworkable and in the end each state will roughly double the fees which is what its all about ,just revenue and legitamising the actions to get it done. In queensland they will just give the fees a big lift and throw a few bones and those in the firing line will think the big bad ranger has gone away ,always put the worst scenario first and the starving peasants think the end result is not so bad


once again I can only say "FIGHT BACK"


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## SheWentMad (Jul 25, 2019)

I was discussing this with a lady from PALM yesterday after making some enquires in regards to my permit etc who I've had the pleasure of dealing with a few times (all good reasons) and she has always been great!
"I'm confused by all the new licensing bullsh*t"
She informed me that this should all be coming into affect next year as far as they are aware however, as I am currently renewing my permit due to it expiring soon, I will continue to operate under current conditions for the next 5 years.
…. Depending on when permits are due to expire, it may even be worth renewing to get the extra time.


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## Kyle Hamilton (Aug 12, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> once again I can only say "FIGHT BACK"


 Hi D lover ,while your here mate ,dou you know whats happening with NSW OEH in regards to the licensing these days ,cant find any updates from the HCN ,last was march and ime thinking they may be held captive at hurstville being fed on chocolate teddys in a dungeon while watching replays of skippy the bush kangaroo.


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## dragonlover1 (Aug 12, 2019)

Kyle Hamilton said:


> Hi D lover ,while your here mate ,dou you know whats happening with NSW OEH in regards to the licensing these days ,cant find any updates from the HCN ,last was march and ime thinking they may be held captive at hurstville being fed on chocolate teddys in a dungeon while watching replays of skippy the bush kangaroo.


Hey Kyle I haven't heard a word from HCN either, I know a couple of the guys are busy ATM trying to twist their arms over mammals. I'm pretty sure they haven't forgotten about reptiles because they are both breeders. I'll see if I can get an update from 1 of them.


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## Kyle Hamilton (Aug 12, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> Hey Kyle I haven't heard a word from HCN either, I know a couple of the guys are busy ATM trying to twist their arms over mammals. I'm pretty sure they haven't forgotten about reptiles because they are both breeders. I'll see if I can get an update from 1 of them.


Thanks D Lover


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## dragonlover1 (Aug 13, 2019)

Apparently everything to do with the license review was sent upstairs before the election and nothing has happened since,typical boofocrats


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## Kyle Hamilton (Aug 14, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> Apparently everything to do with the license review was sent upstairs before the election and nothing has happened since,typical boofocrats


Probably be best for us financially if they did nothing for a few more years , i expect they are considering doubling up on fees as in south australia and if so i may go back to a basic license anyway .


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## Herpetology (Aug 14, 2019)

I don’t think fees will go up if the perks don’t go up with them, it’ll just encourage more illegal keeping


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## dragonlover1 (Aug 14, 2019)

I think the OEH was scared into backing off because of the sheer number of people protesting.
It remains to be seen if the same happens in other states as I don't think they had the same volume of complaints but all reptile keepers need to get active or else we will all suffer in the end as 1 state after another will take the ambivalence as acceptance


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## Kyle Hamilton (Aug 17, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> I think the OEH was scared into backing off because of the sheer number of people protesting.
> It remains to be seen if the same happens in other states as I don't think they had the same volume of complaints but all reptile keepers need to get active or else we will all suffer in the end as 1 state after another will take the ambivalence as acceptance


They anticipated the response from all the parties involved ,its government and they always put out the worst scenarios first ,its the computer programmes that would have to be up and running .The proposals such as a sellers license for online selling would not work ,neither would quotas on animal sales which is why south australia didnt go that way. I would have loved to put reptiles etc in for tax as i could also claim right offs ,but you need really big volumes and theres very few in NSW these days that could do it


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## dragonlover1 (Aug 18, 2019)

They don't consider all scenario's before they open their mouth, because they simply don't understand how complex a situation is.
If it went on tax records they would be paying me every year, I spend thousands and get back a few bucks. My reptile business would be a total write off, if I was in business.


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