# Rich hunters snap up croc safaris



## Redcc (Feb 10, 2012)

I thought we had more brains than letting this type of thing to continue. Rich hunters snap up croc safaris | News | NT News | Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia | ntnews.com.au


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## abnrmal91 (Feb 10, 2012)

It actually helps to control the numbers.


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## longqi (Feb 10, 2012)

Great idea
Pity they still ban limited guided shooting of wild crocs [with export permission]

That is what is really needed


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## Waterrat (Feb 10, 2012)

Hmmm, so Miss Irwin now wants to close all NT crocodile farms. I guess it's OK to make millions from performing crocodiles in manicured enclosures well away from their natural habitats.

The problem with culling the "big ones" is - they are the best stock there is. They survived their mortal combats, etc., their genes are the top. What will happen if they take them out of the population?


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## longqi (Feb 10, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Hmmm, so Miss Irwin now wants to close all NT crocodile farms. I guess it's OK to make millions from performing crocodiles in manicured enclosures well away from their natural habitats.
> 
> The problem with culling the "big ones" is - they are the best stock there is. They survived their mortal combats, etc., their genes are the top. What will happen if they take them out of the population?



totally agree about about ms Irwin

Agree up to a point about big crocs
What they should do before they are forced into culling crocs, is permit guided shooting of problem crocs
In other words remove the big ones near population centres
Only impediment in place is the export of the skins
'hunters' want a trophy to take home
far too many crocs
money/safety for local people

Agree with leaving the big ones alone in very remote areas

If every beach in Australia had resident 12ft white pointers there, how long before they were removed???


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## abnrmal91 (Feb 10, 2012)

Longqi I thought they where already removing crocs once they got within a certain distance of Darwin


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## wokka (Feb 10, 2012)

Putting a price on wildlife is the best way to make them worth preserving in todays capitalistic society.


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## longqi (Feb 10, 2012)

abnrmal91 said:


> Longqi I thought they where already removing crocs once they got within a certain distance of Darwin



yes they do remove them when close to Darwin or in Darwin
And most importantly the numbers of removals is increasing every year

But Darwin isnt the only population centre

Usually locals just shoot anything too big thats sitting in their back yard
Much better to let them earn money by letting 'hunters' shoot them and they get a quid out of it


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## Waterrat (Feb 10, 2012)

wokka said:


> Putting a price on wildlife is the best way to make them worth preserving in todays capitalistic society.



100% agree. Unfortunately, our socialistic government (ALP) doesn't see it that way.


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## Waterrat (Feb 10, 2012)

Crocodiles have self-regulating populations. In limited habitats, the big ones kill or drive away the smaller ones. You take the big ones out and you have a double trouble.


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## longqi (Feb 10, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Crocodiles have self-regulating populations. In limited habitats, the big ones kill or drive away the smaller ones. You take the big ones out and you have a double trouble.



But their population used to inhabit the entire top end water system and they are fairly rapidly taking it back
With far too many now surviving and still growing there are a few huge crocs out there
They chase away the 4m+ ones from their area and those ones travel
Problem is that they travel into more populated areas

Its a no win situation for the crocs
Some of them will have to be removed sooner or later


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Crocodiles have self-regulating populations. In limited habitats, the big ones kill or drive away the smaller ones. You take the big ones out and you have a double trouble.



Exactly

The thing I really dislike about crocodile hunting...Is that crocodiles have slow growth rates and take along time to get to monstrous sizes in the wild(unless they are from some river where they are fed) so they are pretty vulnerable to dwarfism and a reduction in overall body length if they are extensively hunted....If you want to keep seeing monster crocs and allow your children to see these impressive beasts than you should be careful how you hunt them. Trophy hunters always look for the biggest toughest animals to kill (often passing over smaller/immature animals) so you could see a dramatic reduction in the amount of large dominant males and of course everyone knows what that means...


Some animals are much more vulnerable to hunting pressures/hunting induced dwarfism than others


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## abnrmal91 (Feb 10, 2012)

Is dwarfism really an issue given that they where hunted to almost extinction, yet have bombed since the hunting stopped. Yes it would need to be regulated as to what size they could hunt, but it would help control them.


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## Tristan (Feb 10, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Hmmm, so Miss Irwin now wants to close all NT crocodile farms. I guess it's OK to make millions from performing crocodiles in manicured enclosures well away from their natural habitats.
> 
> The problem with culling the "big ones" is - they are the best stock there is. They survived their mortal combats, etc., their genes are the top. What will happen if they take them out of the population?



exactly whats happening with each new generation of Humans, with all the cotton wool the governments keep wrapping everything in


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

longqi said:


> totally agree about about ms Irwin
> 
> Agree up to a point about big crocs
> What they should do before they are forced into culling crocs, is permit guided shooting of problem crocs
> ...



Is their any type of correlation between average Crocodile size and their proximity to humans/human settlements? Do crocodiles that live near human settlements reach larger sizes on average? Do crocs that live near humans reach larger sizes?

I'm asking this because I remember reading a journal article about Grizzly Bears in Yellowstone that were allowed to forage and eat out of garbage dumps..The bears would just go to the dump( which were in the park) gorge themselves....Because of these easy access to a human caused food supply the bears were abnormally large and then when garbage dumps were closed and moved many miles away so that bears could get to them...overall weight and size of bears in the region went down to a much lower and more normal level.


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## longqi (Feb 10, 2012)

mmafan555 said:


> Exactly
> 
> The thing I really dislike about crocodile hunting...Is that crocodiles have slow growth rates and take along time to get to monstrous sizes in the wild(unless they are from some river where they are fed) so they are pretty vulnerable to dwarfism and a reduction in overall body length if they are extensively hunted....If you want to keep seeing monster crocs and allow your children to see these impressive beasts than you should be careful how you hunt them. Trophy hunters always look for the biggest toughest animals to kill (often passing over smaller/immature animals) so you could see a dramatic reduction in the amount of large dominant males and of course everyone knows what that means...
> 
> ...



I dont think anyone would even consider permitting trophy hunting in national parks etc
But there are plenty of bloody big crocs turning up outside those parks
They probably started off in the parks but with the increases in croc populations have moved elsewhere

When you talk to the old croc shooters who have recently been in the territory they all say the same thing
"Never seen so many crocs in my life, Not like this in the 50s and 60s, would have made a fortune"

Since croc shooting was stopped in 1973??? it hasnt taken that long really to explode their numbers
And when you consider how many thousands of wild eggs are removed from the wild each year those numbers could have been much higher


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## Waterrat (Feb 10, 2012)

If you are to control a population, you're better off taking out more sub-adults than a few big ones. The big ones are helping to "cull" the smaller ones as a matter on natural course.
Similar to egg harvest. As long it's done sensibly, it has no effect on the population size, but you take that many adults out and you have a population crush.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

wokka said:


> Putting a price on wildlife is the best way to make them worth preserving in todays capitalistic society.



I disagree...Many animals/humans are ultimately wasteful by nature and live solely in the moment...Putting a price on wildlife will not get people to value conservation of wildlife anymore so than people who are currently poaching rhinos and tigers into extinction for the quick buck they can make on the skins and horns...Most people do not look to the future and most either don't understand or are to greedy to care about sustainable development....

It could help but ultimately it's an issue of human nature.


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## abnrmal91 (Feb 10, 2012)

I was watching a doco the other day and it was talking about an increase in croc hatching rates due to reduced predation of the eggs, from the mertons water monitor as a result of the cane toad. This doesn't mean all these crocs will grow but it leaves the potential for an increased sub adult population in the coming years.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

abnrmal91 said:


> Is dwarfism really an issue given that they where hunted to almost extinction, yet have bombed since the hunting stopped. Yes it would need to be regulated as to what size they could hunt, but it would help control them.




Virtually every large predator/animal is smaller in body size today then it was 100 years ago...Dwarfism has little to do with population size....It has to do with average size and max size of a particular crocodile....If you kill a proportionally large amount of huge crocodiles then the smaller subordinate get to mate and then the gene for huge size does not get passed on.


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## Waterrat (Feb 10, 2012)

and it's not only about dwarfism. The genetic material passed from big old crocs contains qualities related to robustness, aggression, longevity, predator avoidance, hunting skills, mating experience and general survival. They are the pylons of healthy populations.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

longqi said:


> I dont think anyone would even consider permitting trophy hunting in national parks etc
> But there are plenty of bloody big crocs turning up outside those parks
> They probably started off in the parks but with the increases in croc populations have moved elsewhere
> 
> ...



Yes no doubt they are VERY resilient animals in terms of recovering from over-hunting and reestablishing a population...But thats not what I was talking about...I was talking about dwarfnism which has little/nothing to do with population size...

What I meant was that being a slow growing reptile....it takes a long time for a croc to reach a huge size...A 17-18 ft wild croc will be a very old animal...So in comparison to other animals like Lions which are much faster growing and pretty much reach full size by age 4-8....crocodiles and other slow growing animals are much more vulnerable to dwarfism caused by hunting pressures...Trophy hunting targets the biggest, oldest, and most dominant animals...with hunters often passing up smaller/less dominant animals in search for larger beasts.

If you go out and extensively kill the largest oldest crocodiles you can find...well it wouldn't be a good thing.


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## saratoga (Feb 10, 2012)

The very large crocs (5m+) are very shy - they remember the days of spotlights and hunting.

There is a new generation of crocs that have now reached a size where they are a threat to people. By all means take some of these out in the ~3-4 1/2 m range but leave the very big ones alone.


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## Waterrat (Feb 10, 2012)

The big crocs should only be shot when they are no longer reproductive (we don't know when that is) or they loose their territorial rights. Many of the old crocs have no teeth or too many missing or blunt and can no longer challenge younger rivals. BUT, no trophy hunter would want a toothless croc head. Bummer!


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## wokka (Feb 10, 2012)

mmafan555 said:


> I disagree...Many animals/humans are ultimately wasteful by nature and live solely in the moment...Putting a price on wildlife will not get people to value conservation of wildlife anymore so than people who are currently poaching rhinos and tigers into extinction for the quick buck they can make on the skins and horns...Most people do not look to the future and most either don't understand or are to greedy to care about sustainable development....
> 
> It could help but ultimately it's an issue of human nature.


Property owners and managers are more likely to encourage and maintain wildlife if there is a financial benefit at the end. That doesn't have to involve killing them it may encourage tourist to just look. human nature is such that not many humans do something for nothing. In the territory part of the idea of having guides do the killing is so that it is done in a humane and sustainable way. Hopefully the guides have a loger term view to the benefit of sustainable than some short term tourist.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 10, 2012)

wokka said:


> Putting a price on wildlife is the best way to make them worth preserving in todays capitalistic society.



Its working in Africa on the game farms


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## wokka (Feb 10, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> 100% agree. Unfortunately, our socialistic government (ALP) doesn't see it that way.


Isn't it the ALP Government that is allowing the croc cull in the Territory?


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## abnrmal91 (Feb 10, 2012)

I am sure people have seen this but I think it gives a great example of how pricing wildlife can work. Australia is limited as we only have crocodiles that would command a big price. 

The Hot Seat: They Shoot Lions Don't They? - Environment - Browse - Big Ideas - ABC TV


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## wokka (Feb 10, 2012)

longqi said:


> I dont think anyone would even consider permitting trophy hunting in national parks etc
> But there are plenty of bloody big crocs turning up outside those parks
> They probably started off in the parks but with the increases in croc populations have moved elsewhere
> 
> ...



It happens, many of the best Rusa deer heads shot in Australia came from the Royal National Park, just south of Sydney. By allowing legal trophy shooting its takes presure off the illegal shoots.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

wokka said:


> Property owners and managers are more likely to encourage and maintain wildlife if there is a financial benefit at the end. That doesn't have to involve killing them it may encourage tourist to just look. human nature is such that not many humans do something for nothing. In the territory part of the idea of having guides do the killing is so that it is done in a humane and sustainable way. Hopefully the guides have a loger term view to the benefit of sustainable than some short term tourist.




I understand...It's the whole concept of "worth more alive than dead" which is definitely true...But it goes both ways...Rhino poaching in Africa is at an all time high now because in this scenario their is a financial benefit in killing rhinos because their horns are extremely expensive on the black market...

No one could argue with the "worth more alive than dead" part leading to people trying to conserve animals is true....

But what I don't agree with is your notion of "Putting a price on wildlife is the best way to make them worth preserving in todays capitalistic society."

I don't think that is true at all...Their is a price on tigers (meaning their skins) right now but are any poachers concerned with "sustainable" poaching of tigers?...I mean surely they must know that eventually if they keep this up....tigers will be gone for ever (meaning their source of income from selling the parts will be gone for ever) but they don't care because Humans like many other animals are wasteful by nature. They're not looking to the future...they're just poaching indiscriminately and trying to make a quick buck as quickly as they can.


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## longqi (Feb 10, 2012)

wokka said:


> Isn't it the ALP Government that is allowing the croc cull in the Territory?



As far as I know the only culling is of problem crocs that cant be removed any other way, or after a fatality if they need to find remains

Money talks with any animals
Look at sport fishing in the USA
Some awesome fishing there all from stocked fingerlings
Or else from total bans and then limited take permits


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

I understand...It's the whole concept of "worth more alive than dead" which is definitely true...But it goes both ways...Rhino poaching in Africa is at an all time high now because in this scenario their is a financial benefit in killing rhinos because their horns are extremely expensive on the black market...

No one could argue with the "worth more alive than dead" part leading to people trying to conserve animals is true....

But what I don't agree with is your notion of "Putting a price on wildlife is the best way to make them worth preserving in todays capitalistic society."

I don't think that is true at all...Their is a price on tigers (meaning their skins) right now but are any poachers concerned with "sustainable" poaching of tigers?...I mean surely they must know that eventually if they keep this up....tigers will be gone for ever (meaning their source of income from selling the parts will be gone for ever) but they don't care because Humans like many other animals are wasteful by nature. They're not looking to the future...they're just poaching indiscriminately and trying to make a quick buck as quickly as they can. 

Putting a price on widllife would imo only lead to people trying to exploit more animals for a short term gain....I don't trust humans to conserve anything nor do I think it is in our nature to do so.






Geckoman said:


> Its working in Africa on the game farms



Yeah, but if the overall loss of livestock outweighed the economic benefits of keeping lions alive on the reserve...You can bet your *** the lions would be killed within a month.


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## longqi (Feb 10, 2012)

Africa is not a great example simply because of the poaching
But USA shows the way it can be done
Where you have vast populations you cannot include everyone in the money making
Thats the problem in Africa

We are using snake hunters as guides in Papua Java and Borneo
They are very quick to understand they can only sell a snake once
But they can take 100 tourists to see that snake
They are starting to protect 'their' snakes now and woe betide any other hunters encroaching on their areas


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## Red-Ink (Feb 10, 2012)

mmafan555 said:


> I understand...It's the whole concept of "worth more alive than dead" which is definitely true...But it goes both ways...Rhino poaching in Africa is at an all time high now because in this scenario their is a financial benefit in killing rhinos because their horns are extremely expensive on the black market...



The difference is we aren't a third world country and poachings would be minimal as there's no real money in it due to croc farms for hides, bones, skulls or whatever the market dictates in that sense. 

Land owners keeping a sustainable populations of crocs would be more beneficial for them as once it has a price it's a comodity. Whats' the best way of making money from a comodity - create a market and make sure you don't run out of what your selling.


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## crocodile_dan (Feb 10, 2012)

Sustainable use of wildlife is an industry where it is far too easy for it to become a matter of "the straw that broke the camels back" a lot of science referenced in several areas on this matter were poor or dated and subsequent recent material ruled out many papers still used to support it in my studies.

I do believe the concept is valid but in practice it is less than perfect to date with many species globally.

I personally HATE the ethical stance of a "kill them to save them" attitude where the only reason to conserve a species is so that we can prolong the extraction of a resource for sole human interest/gain.

I do see it as most likely a necessary evil in todays society though, and only hope continual revision and adaption happens to ensure any harvest is truly sustainable not just on a purely numbers game (population size), there are many more factors to consider such as mmafan555 and waterrat have discussed.


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## SteveNT (Feb 10, 2012)

Dwarfism isn't an issue. The crocs are as big as they ever were (c. porosus anyway), What is declining is the ease of seeing a really big one. There are many many places where there is 0 acces for humans in boats. Where they are accesible they are culled/ harvested. I have flown low over a completely inaccessible part of the Arafura Swamp and what I thought was a boat was a monster croc ploughing up a channel. Must've been close to 6 meters and broad across the back. They will always be out there.

Safari hunting should be legitimised and the silly shooters should be able to keep their trophies. Economic development is vital in the remote communities and this is a means to that end. Sustainably.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 10, 2012)

longqi said:


> Africa is not a great example simply because of the poaching
> But USA shows the way it can be done
> Where you have vast populations you cannot include everyone in the money making
> Thats the problem in Africa
> ...






longqi said:


> Africa is not a great example simply because of the poaching
> But USA shows the way it can be done
> Where you have vast populations you cannot include everyone in the money making
> Thats the problem in Africa



The main problem with Africa is extreme poverty...Africa is the poorest continent on earth by far....no other continent even comes close and I think the 10 poorest countries on earth are in Africa.

Borneo/Papua Java are way better off than the highly impoverished African countries.

And actullay if you look at Africa and compare it to Asia...Most African animals are SIGNIFICANTLY better off than Asian animals...Virtually every Asian animal is endangered or about to become endangered...Africa still has impressive populations of Elephants, Hippos, Crocodiles, Leopards, Lion, Rhinos(compared to Asian Rhinos) Buffalo, Giraffe etc....Now alot of that has to do with the enormous human population density in Asia but still.


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## SteveNT (Feb 10, 2012)

The main problem with Africa and Asia and most of the world is massive human population. There's comparitavely no-one here.
Look at Melville Island (Tiwis), same size as Bali, lush, beautiful and there are 2-3,000 people there. Compared to millions on Bali. (no offense I like Bali). There are vast areas up here that never see a single person in a year. Probably 5% of the Top End is directly accessible by road. Hunting pressure is not going to eliminate anything here.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 11, 2012)

'Dwarfism' is the incorrect term to use and what you are suggesting is not the case. I would agree that the exceptionally large individuals in many populations have been culled as trophies. Where growth continues with age, such as in reptiles, all this does is to alter the age structure of the population. The average size for age remains unchanged as does the average size at which sexual maturity occurs. If you were to calculate the change in average size of a population, you would need to include every living individual and their size. When this is done, for most populations the difference would be totally insignificant. The same is true of animals that have increased growth with age for certain structures, such as tusks and antlers. 

For populations such as the saltwater crocodile, where there has been intensive harvesting of all age groups over a substantial period, there will be a significant drop in average length. Once again, this is due to a change in the age structure and not the genetic makeup of the population. If there was any genetic selection going on it might be for animals that are more secretive and wary as a result of their genetic makeup. We know that crocodiles can learn behaviours and becoming wary is one of those learned behaviours. The latter will minimise any effects of the former.

Male crocodiles grow faster than female crocodiles. An average male saltie will mature at around 3.35 m and around 16 years of age. A female will mature at around 2 to 2.3 m after about 12 years. I find this more informative than the term "slow".


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## smeejason (Feb 11, 2012)

Years ago pigs and goats were worth nothing to land holders and as such shot on site and left to rot. Then oneday they were worth good money and seen as a commodity. Try and shoot a goat nowadays on a propert and most farmers will shoot you. 
You are kidding yourself if you think large salties are not shot now for taking stock if they were worth more than the stock they will be left alone. . When I was hunting up the cape last time there was no shortage of them. Every pool of water had a saltie of some size in it.
I cannot see that many getting shot. The guides I was talking to we're expecting large trophy fees because of the set up cost and the effort it will take. I cannot see hundreds of rich hunters shooting out the population. Less than a dozen a year if they were lucky I would say. And the way the Aussie dollar is I would say most American hunters would be heading to Africa to shoot one rather than here.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Those who have studied saltwater crocs for many years agree that we could not extirpate them if we tried. The reduction in profitability of hunting was not only as a result of the removal of the largest crocs, but as a result of the remaining crocs becoming gun shy and extremely wary. Add to that the remote locations of many populations. So while the popular belief is that they were hunted to the brink of extinction, the reality is that this was not the case. However this argument was used as leverage to stop hunting and to provide funds for research and is widely accepted as a result. Shooting stopped first in wa in 1969 and then the NT in 1971. The Whitlam government called a 10 year moratorium on the export or import of skins or products in 1972. Qld followed suit (no choice) in banning hunting two tears later. in 40 years we have gone from a situation where highly knowledgeable and talented professional croc hunters struggled to make a living to today's situation where they are to be found in huge numbers across their entire range, there are frequent sightings of big crocs and they are constantly having to be removed from populated areas. 

If you are a land owner in the north and have crocs in say a billabong that are suspected of taking cattle or other stock, what do you do? You are not supposed to shoot them and even if you do, next wet some other will take their place. To permanently correct the problem you can get the front-end loader down there and fill in the billabong. This is just one hypothetical. If possible, landowners may well alter the habitat to make it unsuitable for crocs. The safaris are designed to make it economically worthwhile to look after the crocs on their properties and to ensure they maintain their habitat in the process.


Large male crocs dominate their section of river. If they survive the challenges from other males, they can eventually grow to a size where they are too big to be successfully challenged and so continue to grow larger. Their genes have already been passed on. However, because dad got their first in terms of size, no matter how strong the potential challenger is, they cannot win due to the size imbalance. Removal of such a large croc then allows open challenges from would be replacements and selection of the strongest, most aggressive individual. Exactly the same scenario that would happen if the old croc died of natural causes.

Blue


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## Fuscus (Feb 11, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> 100% agree. Unfortunately, our socialistic government (ALP) doesn't see it that way.


And those Chardonnay-sipping pinko leftists of the Howard government thought the same way
Canberra rejects croc safari hunting - National - theage.com.au


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## Darlyn (Feb 12, 2012)

Fuscus said:


> And those Chardonnay-sipping pinko leftists of the Howard government thought the same way
> Canberra rejects croc safari hunting - National - theage.com.au



Senator Cambell consulted with Steve Irwin on this hence the result.
Blind leading the blind.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 13, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> 'Dwarfism' is the incorrect term to use and what you are suggesting is not the case. I would agree that the exceptionally large individuals in many populations have been culled as trophies. Where growth continues with age, such as in reptiles, all this does is to alter the age structure of the population. The average size for age remains unchanged as does the average size at which sexual maturity occurs. If you were to calculate the change in average size of a population, you would need to include every living individual and their size. When this is done, for most populations the difference would be totally insignificant. The same is true of animals that have increased growth with age for certain structures, such as tusks and antlers.
> 
> For populations such as the saltwater crocodile, where there has been intensive harvesting of all age groups over a substantial period, there will be a significant drop in average length. Once again, this is due to a change in the age structure and not the genetic makeup of the population. If there was any genetic selection going on it might be for animals that are more secretive and wary as a result of their genetic makeup. We know that crocodiles can learn behaviours and becoming wary is one of those learned behaviours. The latter will minimise any effects of the former.
> 
> Male crocodiles grow faster than female crocodiles. An average male saltie will mature at around 3.35 m and around 16 years of age. A female will mature at around 2 to 2.3 m after about 12 years. I find this more informative than the term "slow".



I'm not so confident that indeterminate growth protects a species from dwarfism...I get the point you are trying to make but just because a species grows throughout its life doesn't mean that with time all male crocs will be 18ft monsters...I still would think some crocs would be genetically programed to be more aggressive, larger, dominant etc and regardless of indeterminate growth some will get to bigger sizes than others...But I really don't know much about crocodiles and I could be completely wrong...just a thought.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 13, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> The main problem with Africa and Asia and most of the world is massive human population. There's comparitavely no-one here.



Africa still has huge populations of iconic animals and the human population situation is not so bad in Southern Africa where most of the impressive animals are most common...West Africa is pretty much done for through and most of the animals are very rare or gone...Most big iconic African animals are secure and have sizable populations (much more so than their Asian counterparts) 

The future of Asian animals seems alot less certain...Many iconic animals are already facing extinction and tons of animals are endangered. Plus the human population and population density is unreal over there.





SteveNT said:


> Look at Melville Island (Tiwis), same size as Bali, lush, beautiful and there are 2-3,000 people there. Compared to millions on Bali. (no offense I like Bali). There are vast areas up here that never see a single person in a year. Probably 5% of the Top End is directly accessible by road. Hunting pressure is not going to eliminate anything here.




Thats honestly what draws me the most to Australia...It just feels like their are so many areas of wilderness to explore.....Now don't get me wrong Australian cities are by all accounts some of the best in the world & I would like to go to the ones on the east coast but it's the fact that it's a huge continent with so much wilderness and so little people that interests me the most.... Just seems like thers is a crazy amount of **** still left to explore...and I am a big fan of road trips and just renting a car and exploring...Just the fact that it is so massive but has so much wilderness really interests me....only places that can match it in terms of huge size but so much unpopulated wilderness is Canada and Russia but both are to cold....Alaska also has a huge amount of wilderness with almost no people but it's also way to cold.


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## SteveNT (Feb 13, 2012)

Dr. Graham Webb (renowned croc expert) once said " Give me the navy, the army and the airforce and I couldnt make the crocs extinct". And he meant it, they replaced the labrynthidonts, ate the dinosaurs and will very likely still be here when we are gone.

And nothing can compare with a close up with a really big one when you're in a tinny much smaller than he is. I've been doing it for 30 years but the primal reaction, the instinctive fear is as fresh as the first time. That said I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it if it was stalking my Community. (dont give a rat's about cattle.)


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## olivehydra (Feb 13, 2012)

mmafan555 said:


> The main problem with Africa is extreme poverty...Africa is the poorest continent on earth by far....l.



Antarctica cant be that far behind?


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## solar 17 (Feb 13, 2012)

Just like the kangaroo you wont get rid of them a few of these southern tree huggars should head north during or just after a good wet and see how accessable most of the top end is or rather is not its a bit different to walking along a river bank looking for hippos or in the back of a vehicle looking for exotic cats.
.......solar 17 (Baden)


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## SteveNT (Feb 13, 2012)

olivehydra said:


> Antarctica cant be that far behind?



the admittedly small population would all have very healthy wallets, and if things go wrong, starvation is the least of your worries.

And it's starting to melt! An entire continent is going to emerge. I'll be long gone but the carve up and the mineral rights are already under intense negotiation.


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## Sinners121 (Feb 13, 2012)

i personally think its a great idea by the time a trophy croc becomes a trophy croc it has bred for years and years. it will bring in money for the locals which is always good when their may not be too many job opportunities. 

and it has in fact worked in africa as owners realise that they need a constant sustainable supply of animals as otherwise the will loose their lively hoods. 

america is also a prime example with numerous animals proving that this works. in a few areas deer are becoming overpopulated because hunting is not allowed. Animal rights organisations wanted to have contraceptive methods done estimated at over $250,000 for the government this is compared to hunters paying money to hunt some of these animals at a sustainable rate. 

also keep in mind the majority of hunters are incredibly dedicated to looking after the animals they hunt as they want to be able to continue to do this as they enjoy it. Also the majority of hunters will wait for hours for an animal to move half a meter so they have a proper shot. lets not be misinformed about hunters when their are so many mis-informed about us reptile keepers. 

if its sustainable and not endangered i see no problem as it is proven in wealthier countries (and many poorer) to protect the animals.


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## mmafan555 (Feb 14, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> Dr. Graham Webb (renowned croc expert) once said " Give me the navy, the army and the airforce and I couldnt make the crocs extinct". And he meant it, they replaced the labrynthidonts, ate the dinosaurs and will very likely still be here when we are gone.
> 
> And nothing can compare with a close up with a really big one when you're in a tinny much smaller than he is. I've been doing it for 30 years but the primal reaction, the instinctive fear is as fresh as the first time. That said I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it if it was stalking my Community. (dont give a rat's about cattle.)



I don't know much about evolutionary biology but haven't sharks been around longer than Crocodiles?

Also where would one go to see the largest crocodiles in the wild? Northern Territory or Queensland? Also which rivers have particularly large crocs? If you wanted to photograph a monster sized beast in the wild. where would the best places to go be?

Not that I would ever go looking for Crocs or anythingt but like I said the exploration wildneress part of Australia is what draws me the most.


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## Darlyn (Feb 14, 2012)

mmafan555 said:


> I don't know much about evolutionary biology but haven't sharks been around longer than Crocodiles?
> 
> Also where would one go to see the largest crocodiles in the wild? Northern Territory or Queensland? Also which rivers have particularly large crocs? If you wanted to photograph a monster sized beast in the wild. where would the best places to go be?
> 
> Not that I would ever go looking for Crocs or anythingt but like I said the exploration wildneress part of Australia is what draws me the most.


Hire a houseboat on the Mary River, beautiful scenery, big crocs.


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## cement (Feb 14, 2012)

The guides will do the shooting?

If someone has trekked halfway across the world paid a measly $10k to hunt a croc, does anyone think they might just say at the moment of truth, "hey mate, I'll give you another 10k if you let me take the shot!, in fact I'll tell you what, lets go find a massive croc and I'll double your money again". Its a stupid rule but will work well for the guides. Which won't be a bad thing.

" Of course i shot it, i am the guide aren't I?" Seriously, 10k is chook feed to some of the big game hunters around now. It's a golden opportunity for the locals to get ahead, but I think the government has other agendas in mind for the indigenous people of this land. If the TO's are in their own lands why can't they just do the hunting thing anyway, to heck with the rules and laws?


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## SteveNT (Feb 14, 2012)

They're subject to whitefella law same as you and me. There are exemptions from prosecution for hunting for food but commercial activities have to be negotiated under state and federal legislation.

Double tap is pretty standard in safari hunting.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> They're subject to whitefella law same as you and me. There are exemptions from prosecution for hunting for food but commercial activities have to be negotiated under state and federal legislation.
> 
> Double tap is pretty standard in safari hunting.



And zombies.


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## SteveNT (Feb 14, 2012)

mmafan555 said:


> I don't know much about evolutionary biology but haven't sharks been around longer than Crocodiles?
> 
> Also where would one go to see the largest crocodiles in the wild? Northern Territory or Queensland? Also which rivers have particularly large crocs? If you wanted to photograph a monster sized beast in the wild. where would the best places to go be?
> 
> Not that I would ever go looking for Crocs or anythingt but like I said the exploration wildneress part of Australia is what draws me the most.



Yes sharks are older but ?????????

Not telling! Commercial in confidence ha ha.


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## SteveNT (Feb 14, 2012)

zombies? Are they the translucent people on the top floor of universities with white shirts and string ties?


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2012)

No they are the people that are dead but not really dead and are set on eating your brains. The double tap is rule number 2, or 4 depending upon who you talk to on surviving a zombie apocolypse. Not sure how it relates to crocs... actually a croc that was tripple tapped tail whipped me once. It hurt pretty bad and knocked me over.


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## guzzo (Feb 14, 2012)

The only one who really needs a croc skull or skin.... is a croc. I know there are reasons for culling them....I just don't see shooting them as a great challange.....perhaps just a knife....like Tarzan!


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## SteveNT (Feb 14, 2012)

Now you're talking! I'd love to see a few millionaires leaping onto big salties with a knife between their teeth! Hahahahaha I'd pay to see that!


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## guzzo (Feb 14, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> Now you're talking! I'd love to see a few millionaires leaping onto big salties with a knife between their teeth! Hahahahaha



Well it would give "Jumping Crocodiles" a new meaning


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## Darlyn (Feb 14, 2012)

Or maybe a chew off?


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## bowdnboy (Feb 14, 2012)

Sorry, havnt read all the posts, so if its been said I apologise. Agree with Wokka. Putting a price on their head can be a very usefull tool for the sustainability and number control (if its done properly)

It was just the other day when I went back and watched the debate (sorry, Icant remember the show or the peoples names on it) but one of the guys on there does this in Africa with other wildlife and it works. Once you put a price on something, it becomes very important! Arghhh. wish I could remember that bloody show. It had an ex NT Ranger on it. cant remember his name either ..lol
Someone help me out...lol


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## Sinners121 (Feb 14, 2012)

^^^^^ they shoot lions dont they??


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## bowdnboy (Feb 14, 2012)

yer..thanks. thats it lol 

Very interesting watch


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## Sinners121 (Feb 14, 2012)

that it is wish we could keep quolls


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## Fuscus (Feb 15, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> Now you're talking! I'd love to see a few millionaires leaping onto big salties with a knife between their teeth! Hahahahaha I'd pay to see that!


Nice. But in the closest we will get in the real world the dentist from pasadena will fly first class to the nearest big city ( or Darwin ) then be flown and driven in air conditioned comfort to the "hunting lodge" where they will sleep in feather beds. On the day the tougher hunter will walk to the hunt ( though most will be driven by golf cart ) where a guide will point at the wild, dangerous animal ( who is probably wondering why his tucker is late ). The dentist will aim and fire and of course kill the animal with one shot (helped by another shooter hidden nearby ), then be driven back to the lodge for a heroes feast before jamming into two seats for the plane trip home.
Unfortunately we will also have to compete with Africa, where you can do all that AND have liposuction for around the same price. Surgeon & Safari – Bush Safaris


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## SteveNT (Feb 15, 2012)

I had to take a corporate toe cutter for a bushwalk in a resort in Arnhemland. He had just smilingly sacked 2 staff who were good friends of mine. And added their duties to my own with a sneer and a laugh.

I knew he wouldnt pay attention so I took him to a lagoon nearby and walked him along until we were 10 meters from a 5 meter croc relaxing on the bank. I pointed it out to him.

He screamed, fell on his fat rs and pushed himself backwards on his bum 100 meters back to the beach. 

I couldn't stop laughing, the croc was disgusted and slid back into the water. And old mate sacked me, ha ha ha, but they wouldnt let him. I was still laughing when I waved him off to Melbourne next day!

He is one of the jerks who would fork out top dollar to kill one (or have it killed), clowns.

We'll take their money though.


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## Skelhorn (Mar 1, 2012)

Love it how they are just chillen in the water, little do they know Chomper is 2 feet away and bloody hungry AHAHAHA


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