# the JAG/RPM morph neurological issues.



## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

This is a relevant issue that no one speaks of and the issues are unsearchable! I had no idea the morph had issues and when I did a google search, no results came up... but to have done a google search in the first place on JAG (or RPM) and neurological issues I would first have had to know about those issues.

I rather liked the look of the JAG morph and would have innocently purchased one in the future without knowing I could be purchasing an animal with a Neurological problem. Those that are new to the hobby have no idea.

I would like to see this issue not swept under the carpet and I would love to see mods put up a sticky on the actual facts behind the jag/rpm neurological issues.

Im not wanting to open up debate here, Its pretty simple... people need to be informed in an orderly fashion.
I am just disturbed that the issue is swept under the carpet. No pun intended.


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## byron_moses (Nov 26, 2010)

these issues have been addressed and to many people turn it into a debate it is spoken of alot just not on a public forum


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

What about new people into the hobby? I had contacted a few people over the last few months regarding their jag or rpm ads and not one mentioned neurological issues. Had I gone through with purchasing any of them I wouldn't have known until something happened. I think its fair enough that people are informed, I guess if the forum doesn't want to help out I will try to do the research myself and put up a public website so people can be informed :|


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## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 26, 2010)

Go through a reputable breeder and you won't have to worry about this issue. Reputable breeders have guarantees on their animals...

Contact Barramundi, Colin, myself or byron_moses. If we don't have any available, we will recommend you to someone 
that does have them.


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

being "relatively new" in Australian licenced collections, there hasn't been much talk of it on public forums about it.
there are a few overseas forums that discuss this topic. I would post a link to a few but they would be deleted pretty quickly as its against the forum rules.


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Go through a reputable breeder and you won't have to worry about this issue. Reputable breeders have guarantees on their animals...



Can you explain in further detail "guarantees" and to what limit that they apply.

Cheers.


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Go through a reputable breeder and you won't have to worry about this issue. Reputable breeders have guarantees on their animals...
> 
> Contact Barramundi, Colin, myself or byron_moses. If we don't have any available, we will recommend you to someone
> that does have them.



Hey jungleman... this is a very good point  But people coming into the hobby don't know about the issue in the first place to be able to ask about guarantees etc. Its hard to find a reputable breeder when you dont even know what issues in the snakes you need to be looking for or getting guarantees for. Information is good for everyone involved


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## Australis (Nov 26, 2010)

Interestingly inexperienced (compared to USA, Europe/ UK) jag breeders in Australia claim its 10% or less that have the neurological problems, and that it we could breed it out with our richer gene-pool.

Then look overseas, and experienced jag breeders are saying its as high as 80% have neuro problems, if not all! and further still concede its impossible to breed out!

If it wasnt so disturbing - it would be hilarious.


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## pythons73 (Nov 26, 2010)

Alot of the people who have breed these,apparently its around 10%,so its 1 in every 10hatchies..As long as the breeder has told the respected buyer about the nuero problems,which it may-may not get..Stress has a factor in these snakes.Most breeders have quaranteed if the buyer buys one and it develops these nuero problems they will get a refund..BUT there is some that WONT as the buyer knows the risk...As Jungleman said-REPUTABLE BREEDER and you wont have any problems....The majority of the time with these once there born,you can usually see-tell straight away or within a week or so if theres any nuero issues,however some may not for 6-12-18months down the track...


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## scorps (Nov 26, 2010)

Im sorry mate but reputable breeders have neurological Illues, Simon Stone (one of the original australian breeders) openly admits to it (this isnt slander and nothign against simon as its what he has said) I think its a good thing breeders like him will admit to it


I am very interested in these guarantees, as alot of jags wont show signs until there older.

So if I buy a jag off you then after 2 years it has a bad issue I cant fix? what happens?

Will I get the money I payed for it 2 years ago?

including the food, heating, labour looking after it?

Will you replace it with a random 2 year old jag I dont know nothign about?


People need to face the facts with jags, they have heaps of problems and this thread or another write up needs to be made a sticky


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## Jay84 (Nov 26, 2010)

Personally i think it has been adressed quite alot in recent threads and the majority of people should be aware.

When i first knew about JAGS being available in Australia i did a quick google search and soon found info on many sites about the neuro issues.


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## Jay84 (Nov 26, 2010)

I dont know how these guarantees are going to work. I think that nicole has the best approach to this.

Cust will be made aware of the possible neuro issues. You buy it, you are fully aware, if the individual develops neuro issues then it was your decision to take that chance. I dont think buyers should be refunding buyers. Make the buyer aware of the possibilities.... it is then the buyers choice whether to go ahead with the sale.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 26, 2010)

You can't guarantee anything about them. I would love to see some of the above breeders exchange snakes or fork out money for 3 or 4 year old animals that started to show neurological issues. What a laugh. It has nothing to do with reputable breeders as the Jaguar mutation does not discriminate between reputable and non reputable breeders. There is no way to assess if an animal will have neurological issues or not. We have not seen any of our snakes act differently but we are preparing ourself for when and if the condition presents itself. 
We don't have to sell any of the ones that we breed if we feel that a buyer is not up to the responsibility of owning a Jaguar/RPM. 

It is really up to the buyer to be prepared for what might happen and the breeder to inform the buyer of the possible condition.


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## Jay84 (Nov 26, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> You can't guarantee anything about them. I would love to see some of the above breeders exchange snakes or fork out money for 3 or 4 year old animals that started to show neurological issues. What a laugh. It has nothing to do with reputable breeders as the Jaguar mutation does not discriminate between reputable and non reputable breeders. There is no way to assess if an animal will have neurological issues or not. We have not seen any of our snakes act differently but we are preparing ourself for when and if the condition presents itself.
> We don't have to sell any of the ones that we breed if we feel that a buyer is not up to the responsibility of owning a Jaguar/RPM.
> 
> It is really up to the buyer to be prepared for what might happen and the breeder to inform the buyer of the possible condition.


 
Agreed!


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## Jay84 (Nov 26, 2010)

Not ''buyer beware'' .... but ''buyer BE aware''


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> You can't guarantee anything about them. I would love to see some of the above breeders exchange snakes or fork out money for 3 or 4 year old animals that started to show neurological issues. What a laugh. It has nothing to do with reputable breeders as the Jaguar mutation does not discriminate between reputable and non reputable breeders. There is no way to assess if an animal will have neurological issues or not. We have not seen any of our snakes act differently but we are preparing ourself for when and if the condition presents itself.
> We don't have to sell any of the ones that we breed if we feel that a buyer is not up to the responsibility of owning a Jaguar/RPM.
> 
> It is really up to the buyer to be prepared for what might happen and the breeder to inform the buyer of the possible condition.


 
Couldn't agree more. This is the same apporch we'll be taking.


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## Bob2 (Nov 26, 2010)

I think the buyer should be made aware if they are not already, then it is their problem. If you want to buy an animal that has a reasonable chance of being affected by this issue then thats your bad luck.
Search youtube for videos on the condition then decide if you still want to take the chance.
I for 1, wont be grabbing 1. I dont have the stomach for it.
Each to their own I guess. Hopefully these issues can be bred out and there is a lot more success here.
There seems to be a lot of experienced and knowledgable breeders working with them, a lot of whom, are quite open with their results so it will be interesting to watch over the years.
Good luck.


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## jahan (Nov 26, 2010)

Has anyone stopped to think what is going to happen when jags are bred in numbers and start being sold in pet stores?


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

if ya buy a designer snake you take a risk simple as that as long as the breeder advises that some animals (not all) may develop neuro issues, then buy at own risk.
my personal belief is that if you cant use google/aps search effectively enough to gain basic information of these issues then u shouldn't have one.


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## Waterrat (Nov 26, 2010)

Giggle, your concerns are about new people to the hobby may not be aware of this condition. I thing jags are hardly snakes that would be acquired by inexperienced newbies. They're not the cheapest either.
Anyone wanting to get *any* new species should research thoroughly all there is to research before buying. Just my opinion.


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

I dont debate whether people should breed them, just that people are fully aware before they purchase. I know a lot of responsible people will be telling their buyers. But there are some that wont... and being the weirdo I am, I would love to see that everyone has the opportunity to have that information


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 26, 2010)

Heres a quality post from ARF by Professor Justin Julander from the USA 
Who recently spoke at the Cairns Herp symposiem .


Hey guys, coming from the US, we have been through all this before, not only with the jaguar carpet pythons but also with the spider ball python morph. I didn't go throught the many pages and posts, but I have been through this, so I have a pretty good guess of the conversation. The primary thing is that people were likely not informed before they spent a lot of money on a jag project. This also happened in the US. First off, there is a lot of info out there on jags on other forums such as moreliapythons. It may not be the breeders fault, as shipping may induce such neurological abnormalities, so an otherwise perfectly normal snake could display such aberrant behavior after shipping. More below. Rest assured, your investment is still strong, you just need to get the word out about the potential for abnormal behavior. 

Research in other species has shown that during development, neural crest cells co-migrate with melanin, and when the species has reduced pattern and reduced melanin, such as with the jag, you will have improper neural development. Neuropathy is associated with the jag trait and there is no way around it. Outbreeding has not fixed it, and anywhere the jag trait goes, the neuro problems go with it. It is inherent in the morph and that is what it is. 

I have seen some that display hardly any symptoms, while others are so bad they fall off the perch and corkscrew everywhere they go. Even the most severely affected animals will breed, feed, and live an otherwise normal life, aside from some wacky movements here and there. 

Also, there are things that will set off more severe abnormal neural behavior, such as stress. I had a subadult female jaguar that showed no signs, until I took her to a show as a display. When I got her home, she started doing the looping behavior and still has the symptoms. Stress is a common trigger for neuro abnormalities. 

Well, I hope you all make it past this and enjoy the morph for what it is. You will never entirely remove the neuro issues and you will never produce a viable super leucy, at least these things are highly unlikely. Just be aware and be happy with the cool characteristics of the morph. Hope I don't come off high and mighty, just thought some overseas experience could help.

I keep and breed jags and they sell fine over here. Actually, they kept their value far longer than I ever hoped for a co-dom with a lethal super. It just has to be disclosed that it is part of the mutation.


Cheers!

Justin
Australian Addiction Reptiles


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 26, 2010)

The whole jag/neuro issue has been making out of a mole hill. to an untrained eye not many would ever notice the neuro issue in jags. any signs of neuro issues only seem to show when they are put in a very stressful situation for example(and the only time i have seen it),if you put 2 males together around mating time and they start combating.
The simple solution is to not put them in a very stressful situation and they will live a full and happy life with no dramas.
i have also taken mine to 3 expos now(which is fairly stressful for snakes) and it has shown no neuro issues and i have seen 4 other jags at expos not showing any problems.
i personally don't think the neuro issues can get bred out of it but in saying that, the percentage of them that have a serious neuro problem is incredibly small.
So ,if you like jags,buy one, don't put it in a very stressful situation and you shouldn't have any dramas.but also be aware that there can potentially get issues later(i personally haven't seen it though).the breeder will make you aware of it and you shouldn't go back in 3 years time asking for your money back.its like buying a breed of dog that is prone to hip issues,you know what you are getting yourself in for and you don't ask for a refund 3 years down the track because your dog cant walk.
If you don't like them, don't buy one.simple.
cheers
simon


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Heres a quality post from ARF by Professor Justin Julander from the USA
> Who recently spoke at the Cairns Herp symposiem



Thank you heaps roger  That is a fantastic post.


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

slimebo said:


> its like buying a breed of dog that is prone to hip issues,you know what you are getting yourself in for and you don't ask for a refund 3 years down the track because your dog cant walk.



Um... no. Its not the same. Hip dysplasia is a genetic fault that can be bred out and moreso there is a test for it and not all prone breeds are affected. I wouldn't go comparing to that, that would make an irresponsible breeder.


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## Jay84 (Nov 26, 2010)

jahan said:


> Has anyone stopped to think what is going to happen when jags are bred in numbers and start being sold in pet stores?


 
What do you mean? They are sold in pet stores the world over. I have seen many for sale in UK pet stores. ?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 26, 2010)

Good thing I asked Justin to post in that thread. I'll see if I can get him to be part of this discussion. There are 4 video clips that I made at the Cairns symposium where he touches on the neuro issues. The video quality is not that good. I will try to reload it into YouTube in better quality this afternoon.


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## D3pro (Nov 26, 2010)

Whao... dejavu... *facepalm*

I agree with the people that said "research before you buy" nothing more.


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> Um... no. Its not the same. Hip dysplasia is a genetic fault that can be bred out and moreso there is a test for it and not all prone breeds are affected. I wouldn't go comparing to that, that would make an irresponsible breeder.


 
i admit ,i'm not a dog expert and it was meant to be a broard example. maybe diamond pythons and DPS is a better comparison.anyhow ,you know what i'm getting at.many breeds of animals have issues. just be aware of them.
cheers
simon


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## Kurama (Nov 26, 2010)

This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.

"Neuro Jags"


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i admit ,i'm not a dog expert and it was meant to be a broard example. maybe diamond pythons and DPS is a better comparison.anyhow ,you know what i'm getting at.many breeds of animals have issues. just be aware of them.
> cheers
> simon



Ha ha its funny cause Im not snake expert but I think its a better comparison? 

A while back a similar thing happened with rats in Australia... a new morph 'blue rat' was discovered. They were beautiful and very popular... but the blue gene was linked to a type of haemophilic response. Instead of sensibly breeding the animals a blanket ban was put on them. Initially I was going to run trial breedings and was set to do so with the guidance of the club... but my circumstances had dramatically changed in a short period and i never got to run the trials. 

Carpetpythons.com.au... I know I personally would love to see more info and thanks for setting up the initial posts  Also, seriously, thank you for your honesty and open attitude it really is admirable


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## jgjulander (Nov 26, 2010)

Good to be aware of this issue, so you don't go through all the garbage we went through. I didn't really notice the issue in our animals for a while, and initially at hatching, only 10% may show the symptoms right out of the egg. The rest may display symptoms at any time later on in life, and I don't believe any jag is completely free from the possibility of displaying neuro issues. Some may show very minor symptoms such as slight shaking during anticipation of feeding or during defensive displays. Others will loop de loop after a stressful event. It is impossible to predict, so no real gurantee should be given, unless the breeder is willing to replace an adult animal as was mentioned above. It sounds like you guys here are handling this reasonably well compared to the heated discussions on some US forums after we were informed of the neuro issues. 

It is difficult when you are early in on a morph project to know what is really associated issues with a morph. Say you breed an aberrant carpet to a normal and get some that look the same. One has an abnormal tail tip with a knob at the end, while the other doesn't. Do you report this right off the bat as an issue with the morph, or do you wait until the next clutch to get a bit more data or do you wait for several clutches including outbreeding to verify it before you get the word out? It is hard to say what the best time is to make everyone aware, as initial morph breedings often involve inbreeding, so it is difficult to say early on in a morph project. Prime example: Granite IJ carpets are fairly weak at hatching and some females have had reproductive problems. So far, most if not all of the granites have been produced from one line, without much if any outcrossing. Is the weakness due to inbreeding and the line the morph originated with, or is it due to the morph? 

I would suggest that it is good to make any issues known right off the get go with morph projects. It is just something that doesn't occur often enough. So many morph breeders, especially with ball pythons, always give some aura of mystique to increase sales. I guess that goes with anything people are trying to make money off of, but it is definitely an unfortunate consequence. I thought I had some info concerning the neuro issues of jags on my site, but apparently I never got around to putting up the jaguar 101 page, so I am not free from this either. By the time we bought our jaguar male, all of these things were out in the open in the US, but I should probably get it up soon anyway for reasons such as entry into markets in other countries.

Anyway, hope this input helps somewhat. I really hope you guys can avoid the crap we went through. I really enjoyed visiting your country and am excited to return. You guys have the best herps! 

Cheers,
Justin
Australian Addiction Reptiles


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## FAY (Nov 26, 2010)

I personally feel that Jags/RPM's whatever you want to call them are here whether any of us like it or not.
I also feel that APS, being responsible should make members aware about issues with these snakes.
Thank you Roger for that post. It is very informative.
Like Jay said....don't beware but BE aware that there CAN be issues with them, on what scale I don't think anyone really knows. 

Please keep this topic on track.


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## FAY (Nov 26, 2010)

jgjulander said:


> Good to be aware of this issue, so you don't go through all the garbage we went through. I didn't really notice the issue in our animals for a while, and initially at hatching, only 10% may show the symptoms right out of the egg. The rest may display symptoms at any time later on in life, and I don't believe any jag is completely free from the possibility of displaying neuro issues. Some may show very minor symptoms such as slight shaking during anticipation of feeding or during defensive displays. Others will loop de loop after a stressful event. It is impossible to predict, so no real gurantee should be given, unless the breeder is willing to replace an adult animal as was mentioned above. It sounds like you guys here are handling this reasonably well compared to the heated discussions on some US forums after we were informed of the neuro issues.
> 
> It is difficult when you are early in on a morph project to know what is really associated issues with a morph. Say you breed an aberrant carpet to a normal and get some that look the same. One has an abnormal tail tip with a knob at the end, while the other doesn't. Do you report this right off the bat as an issue with the morph, or do you wait until the next clutch to get a bit more data or do you wait for several clutches including outbreeding to verify it before you get the word out? It is hard to say what the best time is to make everyone aware, as initial morph breedings often involve inbreeding, so it is difficult to say early on in a morph project. Prime example: Granite IJ carpets are fairly weak at hatching and some females have had reproductive problems. So far, most if not all of the granites have been produced from one line, without much if any outcrossing. Is the weakness due to inbreeding and the line the morph originated with, or is it due to the morph?
> 
> ...




Thank you Justin, your input is most welcomed!


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

for us newbies, what are we talking about here with neuro issues? 
what something little that shows and whats something severe? is it just gazing and spiraling? how bad is the spiraling?
what else happens? does it make them more violent/aggressive?


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

Thanks Justin! 

You are absolutely right, sometimes at the beginning of a morph it is hard to separate whether issues are morph or line related. 
It is fantastic you are talking about it and I do have to agree that providing guarantees would be difficult. I also would be more inclined to make all possibilities known to the buyer initially and state there are no guarantees. 
Rather like buying a chinese crested dog... you know it has no hair when you buy it and by buying it you make a committment to putting sunscreen on its skin every day of its life for up to 20years. I guess the same thing applies to this morph  If you know you are buying a morph that may exhibit neural issues, you are making a commitment to providing as stress free environment as possible.

If buyers go into it knowing they may end up with a degree of neural issues... if they end up with a bub with no to little neuro issues then they can have a pleasant surprise, rather than the other way around.

I think some people have put in some great info  I went from knowing zero to learning a fair bit more about the morph.
I have recently been made aware of a post on another forum about this issue, but it never came up on any of my searches. Maybe when Justin has finished his page regarding the morph, there could be a simple link his page from sticky? If Justin would be ok with that?


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 26, 2010)

Just a question from someone who knows little of these genetics - if a jag is bred with any of our carpet subspecies, will the progeny of a breeding like that be affected, or carry the means to pass the condition onto animals bred in the future? I ask this with particular regard to more 'normal' looking progeny which may end up in the system, unaccompanied with details of heritage.

Regards to Justin!

Jamie


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

NatoRey said:


> for us newbies, what are we talking about here with neuro issues?
> what something little that shows and whats something severe? is it just gazing and spiraling? how bad is the spiraling?
> what else happens? does it make them more violent/aggressive?



Good questions. I had to go watch a youtube vid someone posted to know. 

From an experienced point of view it may not seem like much. But from my completely inexperienced view the video was distressing... if I had my beloved new snake start showing such symptoms I would completely and utterly freak out, I would be rather distressed myself. Though learning a bit more on the subject gives me a bit more comfort. In all circumstances education is the solution. It also gives me rather a lot of comfort knowing that the breeders are open to discuss it and have very open standards about it. I don't know why Gunny mocked my view on that. :|


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## beeman (Nov 26, 2010)

Jamie, I would asume that the genes would be passed onto the offspring
with that mating and would more than likely develope into an issue with the normal looking animals.
We are able to through the likes of AI in my industry (beekeeping) to insert any gene we wish to into our breeding stock to create our breeders which in turn are used to produce our commercial hive queens and all the material is represented in this reproduction so i would assume this would be the case for your above question. 
regards 
Craig


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## ad (Nov 26, 2010)

Raven said:


> This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.
> 
> "Neuro Jags"



"I can give one example from a Benjamin X Madame Blueberry Red Hypo Jag female I had. One of her clutches, out popped the nicest, most reduced patterned red hypo jag I have ever seen, let alone had the priviledge to produce. "He's the One" was what I named him. He began to show slight neuro signs at about 6 months of age. Only during feeding, at first it began with a few missed strikes here and there, but suddenly he went from slightly Neuro to the most extreme neuro I have ever witnessed, a total transformation right in front of my eyes. Here's what happened, the last meal I offered him, he missed the pinky, then somehow wrapped his body around his own neck and began to choke himself! I watched in horror as his mouth opened and closed gasping for a breath while his own body was trying to sufficate him. I pried him open and he immediately turned himself into an upside down pretzle. And I agonized over it for about a whole 4-6 hours before I put him down. Everytime I opened his bin there he was, writhing around all contorted, literally tying himself in knots. It really was a sad sight. It was more than sad, it was sickening to watch, he couldn't function at any level. I have culled plenty of others, but He's the One was the worst case I had ever seen prior to and since as well. "

To give a balanced view to what neuro issues in Jags is like, here is a less rosy version from a jag keeper.
If people youtube search 'neuro jag' they will also be able to form a better awareness of the problems in these snakes.

2 experienced herpers have been very unhappy about neuro issues in their jags in Australia already, both wanted refunds, 1 got his, the other didnt.
I think it will be the only refund ever in this country, so be aware.
The neuro issues in these snakes were obviously worse that what they wanted in their animals otherwise they wouldnt have asked for the refunds.
As these neuro issues crop up any time in the life of the animal, you would be wise to consider carefully before purchasing one of these animals.

This is a great stance by the site Faye. So if we are going to raise awareness, lets not sugar coat it either.
Cheers
Adam.


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## jgjulander (Nov 26, 2010)

Hello Jamie, great to see you on here! The neuro issues are only associated with the jag trait, so all the normal siblings of jags will not have any issues. Also, outbreeding will not improve the neuro issues because the jag trait is likely associated with neurological development during the time in the egg. If you have a jag, unfortunately, you have the chance of neuro defects. That said, I have only had 1 or 2 out of all the jags we have hatched that have had obvious neuro signs out of the egg, although in the others you will see it mildly here or there as they develop. This is a great morph, despite the down side, and the pros outweigh the cons. 
Cheers,
Justin


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## buck (Nov 26, 2010)

Raven said:


> This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.
> 
> "Neuro Jags"


 
I strongly suggest anyone thinking of purchasing a Jag read the thread in this link. It contains some great information and will help make an informed decision from a balanced view. I hope that the Mods will allow it to stay despite the site rules.
Roger, well done for starting it also!!!!! 
I get the feeling that I may have been coming across anti Jag from earlier posts. To be honest I still don't know how I feel about them. Some of them are amazingly looking snakes but morally/ethically I just don't know. I have showed my wife(she hates snakes) some footage on youtube of some jags with neuro issues and she said she felt physically disturbed having watched it. 
My main concern is alot of untruth and mis-information that was surrounding the Jags out here. My questioning in another thread was an attempt to try and make people aware that the "results" being quoted here are not typical of what is happening OS.


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

When I looked on youtube I found a 'jag sibling' with neuro problems. I think jag sibling is what they call the normal looking version from jag parents?

I guess that is the interesting question... my scientific side would love to see the results of breeding trials  And I would love to know if others have bred reduced patterned animals from completely unrelated stock that have the same neural issues? I think a pure MD python with reduced patterns was being sold recently. If it is pure then clearly it is from completely unrelated lines, I wonder how it and its offspring will fair? 

Im sorry to those that feel this has been done to death  But I think previous threads are not available and newbies like me are in the dark. Thanks for being patient, with me especially! lol



Pythoninfinite said:


> Just a question from someone who knows little of these genetics - if a jag is bred with any of our carpet subspecies, will the progeny of a breeding like that be affected, or carry the means to pass the condition onto animals bred in the future? I ask this with particular regard to more 'normal' looking progeny which may end up in the system, unaccompanied with details of heritage.
> 
> Regards to Justin!
> 
> Jamie


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## jgjulander (Nov 26, 2010)

One additional point, as I hadn't really observed much in the way of neuro symptoms, I visited a friend who kept jags who had a male jag, a VERY nice male, that was so bad he would fall off his perch as he cruised the cage. This was pretty shocking to me as well and I am not sure what I would do with an animal like that. This animal bred and ate normally, just had issues moving around. It is hard to say if this is distressing to the animal, but if they are feeding and producing offspring, I would think it safe to say they are fairly OK with it.
Justin


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 26, 2010)

Thanks Justin, and good to know you're still alive and kicking in the good ol' US of A! I hope to renew our acquaintance next year in Sydney... please bring your dad back too!

Jamie.


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## Jason (Nov 26, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Go through a reputable breeder and you won't have to worry about this issue. Reputable breeders have guarantees on their animals...


 
it does not matter of where you buy your JAGs from, the problem is genetic hence good or bad breeder, the risk is all the same. unfortunately it is the dark side of keeping/breeding JAGs that keepers cannot avoid... breeders just need to be responsible and cull any animals showing issues (imo) and warn any potential newbie/unaware buyers of what problems are associated with JAGs.

there is a well know reputable breeder who has sold a couple of animals with some serious nuero problems and even though the animal they where breed from and the individual animals themselves showed signs of nuero, the breeder did nothing, not even for-warm the purchaser/s! i will not mention names because i will get banned from APS.


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## buck (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> Im sorry to those that feel this has been done to death  But I think previous threads are not available and newbies like me are in the dark. Thanks for being patient, with me especially! lol



I'm all for open discussion on the topic. The more the better - pro's and con's.

From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.


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## D3pro (Nov 26, 2010)

buck said:


> From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.



No no, I have no interest in jags at this time (maybe in the future) and I am kinda over it. But I have been personally talking to jag breeders and some people who feel they were ripped off and some that were, I have heard all sides to this story and I can honestly say I am over it. It doesn't take anymore then 5 minutes on google to find out about this issue. Here is a helpful link for you newbies Jag Neuro Problems

No offence to you or your opinions buck.

Cheers,


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

Justin, it looked like in the videos I saw, that they seemed happy enough to start off with, nearly normal snakes. 
What it seemed like to me was the animal had a neurological issue 100% of the time but not visible to us because it normally didn't present a problem to the snake. It was when the snake tried to do something that required use of a neurological function that they could not perform that symptoms start appearing. Their inability to perform those functions seems to stress them further, allowing them to spiral out of control.

Being able to calm them may be useful information to jag owners 

From someone with her own neurological issues to contend with... I live a relatively normal life but do acknowledge stress can make my life downright ridiculous. However, a snake doesn't need to try to drive to work with a whirly head  Or try to cook a meal when they attempt to make their hand go one way and it goes an entirely different way into the hotplate instead LOL
I have stress minimizing techniques but we cant teach it to our snakes lol But we can probably figure out how to minimize or eliminate their stress as they have an episode.

Forgot to ad... I understand why not being able to do something would stress them out and make the issue worse. But at the same time, I know if I had a life where all I had to do was sit in an enclosure looking pretty, having hot meals prepared for me and my home cleaned and meticulously maintained for me... it wouldn't be such a bad life afterall lol I would suggest most jags with neuro issues would have the same level of neurological issue as each other, however just like people, some cope better than others  Just like people, some may find ways to cope with their different abilities and therefore never get too stressed about it... and some may never find a way to live happily the way they are. I may be wrong, but thats my guess.


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

why wade into a discussion you are sick to death of? was it to show off your sharp google link? 
i love search engines but its not the same as a discussion with actual breeders now is it?
i like some of these animals and am interested in buying a high end animal if i find that special specimen
im a newbie and i think this thread is informative and helpful, speaking to actual morph/jag/rpm 
(or what ever their called) breeders you get a feel for them as a person cause im sure as hell going to to business with 
someone with respect, honesty and integrity over some smart mouth person who trys to confuse and misdirect you.


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

D3pro said:


> No no, I have no interest in jags at this time (maybe in the future) and I am kinda over it.



 I guess it wouldnt hurt you one way or another if you didnt read it


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

NatoRey said:


> i like some of these animals and am interested in buying a high end animal if i find that special specimen
> im a newbie and i think this thread is informative and helpful, speaking to actual morph/jag/rpm


 
I have to agree here  The whole thing is growing on me, the more information I am able to obtain and the more respect I gain for those involved. It may even be something to look at in the future as I have totally fallen in love with my first little snake I can tell I will end up with more and probably something with a much higher price tag and a more unique look.

Had I not been allowed the opportunity to discuss this and learn more then I wouldn't be as comfortable with the whole thing. I may be one person and of no consequence, but you can bet if I feel this way then there are at least ten more that share my view. 
It doesn't just have a positive effect on the morph itself, but on the hobby as a whole. I was always impressed that this hobby was so keen to welcome newbies (especially compared to other hobbies!).


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## jgjulander (Nov 26, 2010)

Giggle, I hadn't thought of that aspect, that the neuro issue could be a source of stress. Not sure if they register that or not, but it is definitely an interesting thought. 

I haven't witnessed any jag sibs with neuro issues. I would be interested to see the youtube link for that one.

Jamie, not sure dad will be able to come along next year or not, but I will definitely send your regards. I am also excited to visit with you again in Sydney. Looking forward to next year already!

Justin


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 26, 2010)

buck said:


> I'm all for open discussion on the topic. The more the better - pro's and con's.
> 
> From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.


 
The fact is that there is nothing we could say that would make you change your mind. You are of the opinion and many others are of the opinion; that all the keepers that bought jags are only in it to make money! You also believe that we have zero interest in the good health of the animals in question? We love our Jags more than any of our other snakes, regardless of the fact that they might end up Stupid. We realise that these animals could stay in our collection for the next 20 years and we are ok with that! Along with another couple of hundred or so. We are fully commited to all our animals welfare over the long haul, we dont flog them off when they are worth nothing or when they get too old to breed. They grow old and die in our care! After all, they offered us their life for our pleasure.

I find that the people who make the loudest noise are usually the ones that have never owned anything rare or valuable in their lives. They can not seem to grasp the concept of an investment and never will. They could also never make any contribution to the hobby as that would mean that they would have to actually respect somebody elses opinion and step out of their comfort zone. They can also never grow as a keeper as all they have to offer is their big fat opinion. Everybody else is wrong according to them!! 

How can you say that the neuro issues are being swept under the carpet when there has only been two confirmed cases that i know of personally? Yet it is out in the open now? We thought hard and long before we purchased our first animals as we paid lots more for them than what they are worth now. We also know that by the time we produce them they would probably be woth $500 each. We also realise that the siblings will become an issue, not because of our breeding, but because of some private keepers that can not understand the concept of not breeding everything that they lay their hands on. 

As i have said in another post. There is no reason to refund anything when your customers have been made aware of the complications associated with the Jaguar gene!!! Its as simple as that!!! They are the perfect pet snakes, they will be picked off in the wild as they would stress themselves to death. Predators would pick them off easily as their colours would make them stand out like dogs balls in the bush. They also have less of a chance to escape as they are valuable and people tend to look after things better if they cost them a bit of money. 

Designer snakes will also cause a decline in poaching of wild stock as they frankly look better than anything you could collect out of the bush.

Sorry for the rant and rave, this topic of breeders being in it for the money has just become laughable!!!


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## Gusbus (Nov 26, 2010)

very interesting stuff, good to see a real indepth thread on here


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## vinny86 (Nov 26, 2010)

Couldnt agree more cp.com.au!!!!!!


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

jgjulander said:


> Giggle, I hadn't thought of that aspect, that the neuro issue could be a source of stress. Not sure if they register that or not, but it is definitely an interesting thought.
> 
> I haven't witnessed any jag sibs with neuro issues. I would be interested to see the youtube link for that one.
> 
> ...



I figured for those interested, it might be a way to "breed out the symptoms" and have jags that live a more normal life. By selecting for those that cope best with their neurological issues. I may be entirely wrong as I am merely an outsider looking in.

[video=youtube;DyPRAMoXC64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyPRAMoXC64[/video] found it through a UK forum where the owner said the animal had neuro issues. It doesnt say much on the youtube vid itself. I dont think I am allowed to link the other forum though?


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## Allan (Nov 26, 2010)

Apologies for my ignorance, but what is the current price for Jag hatchies?


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## Gusbus (Nov 26, 2010)

$2500-3000 ish


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## cement (Nov 26, 2010)

Carpet pythons.com quote"How can you say that the neuro issues are being swept under the carpet when there has only been two confirmed cases that i know of personally? Yet it is out in the open now? We thought hard and long before we purchased our first animals as we paid lots more for them than what they are worth now. We also know that by the time we produce them they would probably be woth $500 each. We also realise that the siblings will become an issue, not because of our breeding, but because of some private keepers that can not understand the concept of not breeding everything that they lay their hands on. 

As i have said in another post. There is no reason to refund anything when your customers have been made aware of the complications associated with the Jaguar gene!!! Its as simple as that!!! They are the perfect pet snakes, they will be picked off in the wild as they would stress themselves to death. Predators would pick them off easily as their colours would make them stand out like dogs balls in the bush. They also have less of a chance to escape as they are valuable and people tend to look after things better if they cost them a bit of money."

This is the sort of crap that breeders of jags will put up to shut up anyone who has a different opinion. I am glad the neuro problems are now out in the open and as stated earlier it would be laughable if it wasn't so disturbing.
I have heard jag breeders throw around the term "hybrid vigour", amongst other complete bull.
Have you actually had evidence of jags not surviving in the wild or are you assuming?

And how can you talk about "not in it for the money" then in the same breath talk about investment snakes?

All anyone needs to know about jags is that if you want retarded snakes buy one 

Tell us all, when yours start backflipping and they will eventually if you breed enough, what will be going through your mind? honestly, because it makes me feel a little sick.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> I figured for those interested, it might be a way to "breed out the symptoms" and have jags that live a more normal life. By selecting for those that cope best with their neurological issues. I may be entirely wrong as I am merely an outsider looking in.
> 
> Jag sibling neuro found it through a UK forum where the owner said the animal had neuro issues. It doesnt say much on the youtube vid itself. I dont think I am allowed to link the other forum though?


 
Remember that you have to make a distinction between a disease and a genetic condition. The neurological symptoms in that video can be caused by many other things. That snake could have been exposed to poisons, it could suffer from heat stress and it could also have Inclusion body disease. Dont get all paranoid because its a carpet python displaying motory issues!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 26, 2010)

cement said:


> Carpet pythons.com quote"How can you say that the neuro issues are being swept under the carpet when there has only been two confirmed cases that i know of personally? Yet it is out in the open now? We thought hard and long before we purchased our first animals as we paid lots more for them than what they are worth now. We also know that by the time we produce them they would probably be woth $500 each. We also realise that the siblings will become an issue, not because of our breeding, but because of some private keepers that can not understand the concept of not breeding everything that they lay their hands on.
> 
> As i have said in another post. There is no reason to refund anything when your customers have been made aware of the complications associated with the Jaguar gene!!! Its as simple as that!!! They are the perfect pet snakes, they will be picked off in the wild as they would stress themselves to death. Predators would pick them off easily as their colours would make them stand out like dogs balls in the bush. They also have less of a chance to escape as they are valuable and people tend to look after things better if they cost them a bit of money."
> 
> ...


 
Is it crap because it a differnet opinion to yours? I am sure you said that you dont quite know where you stand when it comes to jags on another forum? Have you got any evidence that they would survive in the wild? I can talk about investment snakes because I own some of them, when you own some please feel free to raise your opinion on the topic!!! Not being in it for the money does not mean that you can not own investment snakes? I would love to have my hobby pay back enough for itself so i can quit my day job, who wouldnt???

As for your last question, I would answer that with pleasure! I would stand back and look at them and say, I am glad you are in my care and not in somebody elses care that would not be able to handle such a responsibility!!!


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## cement (Nov 26, 2010)

No. You are welcome to your opinion.
If you have read any of my posts on other forum you will know exactly where i stand.
How would you know what I have in my collection?

Stop tap dancing and answer my question about watching an animal corkscrew, bend back over itself, fall off perches, miss its food and bang its head around its enclosure. Its ok, if your good with that and feel nothing, I'm just wondering seeing as you are so loving towards your snakes.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 26, 2010)

cement said:


> No. You are welcome to your opinion.
> If you have read any of my posts on other forum you will know exactly where i stand.
> How would you know what I have in my collection?
> 
> Stop tap dancing and answer my question about watching an animal corkscrew, bend back over itself, fall off perches, miss its food and bang its head around its enclosure. Its ok, if your good with that and feel nothing, I'm just wondering seeing as you are so loving towards your snakes.


 
I answered your question. Have you ever seen a jag in person?


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## cement (Nov 26, 2010)

Was there some at the Ipswich show?
Where was your answer?


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## D3pro (Nov 26, 2010)

Cement



CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> As for your last question, I would answer that with pleasure! I would stand back and look at them and say, I am glad you are in my care and not in somebody elses care that would not be able to handle such a responsibility!!!


 


cement said:


> Was there some at the Ipswich show?
> Where was your answer?


 
Yes there was.


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## cement (Nov 26, 2010)

D3pro said:


> Cement
> 
> Cheers mate, at least we are keeping it real here eh!:lol:


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## buck (Nov 26, 2010)

I'm getting extremely frustrated trying to reply with quotes from my iPhone. I might have to wait until a get home from work in the morning to do it. In the mean time, I might just point out that carpetpythons might be getting myself and Cement confused. I'm still not sure where I stand on jags but sm all for open discussion. Not sure why some are trying go stop that. 
Also carpetpythons, you have to be kidding about the videos bring from a number of things


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 26, 2010)

Seriously Buck. Ask the question on an international forum, and see what the reponse is. I have never been against a civil debate between members. The problem is that the same things get repeated over and over. You guys know where we stand in this debate! People will be well informed and their competency level will be assessed before any animals will be sold.


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## buck (Nov 26, 2010)

I have seen it asked on sn international forum and have tried to elude to the fact that the results here are in mo way typical of overseas. That is what seems to have fueled you and others to try and down play what is being said.


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## buck (Nov 26, 2010)

I have to commend you on your openess about your return policy. Not too many others have been so forthcoming. 

Unfortunately though it seems that if you don't fully agree with every aspect of something you must be against it. As I have said, personally I'm not sure where I stand. They look amazing but have some pretty serious health concerns. I'm just trying to get real Information available to everyone so they can make informed decisions. What's wrong with that???


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## aussie-albino (Nov 26, 2010)

This has been a very good and informative thread guys it goes a long way toward revealing the openness these days about the subject and the neuro issues is a subject that should be kept out in the open imo.
cheers
Scott


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## Klaery (Nov 26, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> We also realise that the siblings will become an issue, not because of our breeding, but because of some private keepers that can not understand the concept of not breeding everything that they lay their hands on.



I don't fully understand this part.


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

danielk said:


> I don't fully understand this part.



Siblings are not jags, but can produce jags that have neuro problems. Therefore siblings may be an issue once people looking to make a quick buck get their hands on them (siblings being cheaper) and care more about the money to be made than the health or wellbeing of the animals concerned. Thats what I got from it  It happens... it would be a tough one for breeders to deal with. In dogs you can desex them, in snakes what do you do?


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## Klaery (Nov 26, 2010)

I understand what siblings are ;-) I mean I don't understand how siblings are a problem only caused by a few private breeders who have to breed everything they 'lay their hands on'.


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## Australis (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> Siblings are not jags, *but can produce jags* that have neuro problems.



"Siblings" cant produce any jags.


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## D3pro (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> Siblings are not jags, but can produce jags that have neuro problems.



Wrong, only the animal with the jag gene will have neuro problem.
Cheers


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## Jay84 (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> Siblings are not jags, but can produce jags that have neuro problems. Therefore siblings may be an issue once people looking to make a quick buck get their hands on them (siblings being cheaper) and care more about the money to be made than the health or wellbeing of the animals concerned. Thats what I got from it  It happens... it would be a tough one for breeders to deal with. In dogs you can desex them, in snakes what do you do?


 
Sibs can not produce JAGS as it is a co dom morph, meaning they are not hets, they do not carry the JAG gene.


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## Kurama (Nov 26, 2010)

A part of reptile keeping that I take very seriously is the health and wellbeing of my animals. 

JAG's may have killer looks but at what price?

Carpetpythons.com.au to say that JAG's are the perfect pet snake is absurd.


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

if i were to buy a jag, have it in a custom enclosure, in a low traffic area, as a display animal and not handle it very often, say only at cleaning times would that significantly slow or minimize the neuro issues? or is it just inevitable its going to go weird?


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

LMAO its funny how not one, but a bunch of people jumped on my comment as though I am an experienced person that should know better.

My post was what I gathered from the comment regarding siblings. If that isnt the case, then I too dont understand why siblings will be a problem in other peoples hands... if siblings can never produce jag offspring. And some of you misunderstood what I was saying anyway (the comment of siblings never having neuro issues). 

Its funny how a quest for information ends in bickering about who knows more. I've already said I know nothing about this morph.

Though... one of you said its a co-dom morph. Co-dominant implies two sets of genes required to show jag phenotype... in that case a sibling may have one but not both of the genes... therefore not displaying the jag phenotype... but therefore cleverly paired with the right sibling, can produce phenotypical jags :|


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 26, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Giggle, your concerns are about new people to the hobby may not be aware of this condition. I thing jags are hardly snakes that would be acquired by inexperienced newbies. They're not the cheapest either.
> Anyone wanting to get *any* new species should research thoroughly all there is to research before buying. Just my opinion.



I totally agree Micheal, & on to further issues Maybe Ausie breeders CAN produce better animals, & produce a line that have no neuro problems.
It is really short term at present, all I can say is wait another year or two & then judge.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 26, 2010)

Hopefully when threads such as these run their course people will be able to make an educated decision when choosing whether to keep Jags/RPMs. And then hopefully keepers will be able to display a pic of their animals without the thread being bombarded. Props to Barra for being honest and forthright with his answers and opinions.

As for the neuro issue at hand, I can and will only comment on what animals I've personally seen. All up that number is around a dozen juveniles and adults, including the female we have here. Obviously a small sample size, but all showed no signs of any issues. The clear fact is that yes, some may show signs in the future, and some offspring produced will be obviously affected worse than others. But in the grand scheme of things, if the extremely affected neuro affected Jags were as common as some would like to believe, there is no way Jags would be as popular in the States from a designer standpoint as they are today. If all Jags were, for lack of a better word, spinners, there wouldn't be 100 ads in the back of US mags with passionate keepers displaying and promoting their animals. The market demand would never have eventuated and they wouldn't be as big in the States as they are today..


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## Shredder (Nov 26, 2010)

Thats right Den.
If you stress out your albino darwin you will be faced with these same neuro problems.
Keepers should know better than to battle or put them over to many females or feed them to quick too much too name a few causes.
Its greed that brings it out and next thing you know the prices drop cause they need to make their money so rather than the obvious they sell these animals.
Lets face it humans have neuro problems too and they still breed.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 26, 2010)

Lets face it, everyone thinks that they are an expert.
Cheers.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 26, 2010)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> Lets face it, everyone thinks that they are an expert.
> Cheers.


 
In some cases, probably. But surely the majority of people who have had first hand experience with the animals in question have a more viable (or reliable) argument. Although it is a personal preference, opinion based topic. I think it's more so a fact of people trying to push their point forward, over and over again in some cases...


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## xxMelissaxx (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> LMAO its funny how not one, but a bunch of people jumped on my comment as though I am an experienced person that should know better.
> 
> Its funny how a quest for information ends in bickering about who knows more. I've already said I know nothing about this morph.


 
Uh, I don't see that at all? You posted something that was incorrect. If you don't know the answer and then go on to give incorrect information, then for the benefit of not just the person asking the question, but for everyone reading the thread, someone will correct you.


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## Gusbus (Nov 26, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Uh, I don't see that at all? You posted something that was incorrect. If you don't know the answer and then go on to give incorrect information, then for the benefit of not just the person asking the question, but for everyone reading the thread, someone will correct you.


indeed


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## itbites (Nov 26, 2010)

cement said:


> No. You are welcome to your opinion.
> If you have read any of my posts on other forum you will know exactly where i stand.
> How would you know what I have in my collection?
> 
> Stop tap dancing and answer my question about watching an animal corkscrew, bend back over itself, fall off perches, miss its food and bang its head around its enclosure. Its ok, if your good with that and feel nothing, I'm just wondering seeing as you are so loving towards your snakes.


 

I couldn't agree more with this statement! 

I find the whole morph/hybrid disturbing & the thought of purchasing an animal that later on after caring for raising etc will most likely end up neurologically deformed/retarded is horrible!

I honestly don't see the point in keeping & breeding a snake that is so weak genetically & in a way it's 
kind of cruel to put any animal through that sort of life!

Eg; My dog recently was diagnosed with neurological issues & she gradually got worse & worse 
to the point where she wasn't able to eat, drink or even do her business without falling over or hurting herself.
I eventually had to make the decission to have her put to sleep as her quality of life was in the end
non existent .


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> Though... one of you said its a co-dom morph. Co-dominant implies two sets of genes required to show jag phenotype... in that case a sibling may have one but not both of the genes... therefore not displaying the jag phenotype... but therefore cleverly paired with the right sibling, can produce phenotypical jags :|


 
Here's a _*basic*_ run down on the way this co-dom gene works.
(If i am wrong here can someone explain it in other words and I will stand corrected)


A wild has 2 dominant genes, 2 of the wild type genes.
So when 2 wild types are bred together 100% of the offspring will get 2 dominant wild type genes.

A jag has 2 dominant genes, 1 jag gene and 1 wild type gene.
So when a jag is bred to a wild tpye, 50% of the offspring will have 1 jag gene and 1 wild tpye gene causing them to look like a jag. The other half will have 2 copies of the wild type gene making them look like the wild type.

When a jag is bred to a jag, the results are a such:
25% of the clutch will get 2 jag genes (causing the lecuistic babies which seems to be fatal to date)
50% of the clutch wil get 1 jag gene and 1 wild type gene (these are the jags)
25% of the clutch will get 2 wild type genes (these are the siblings)

So a sibling cannot produce any jags as it only has wild type genes.
Unless of course it is paired with a jag.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 26, 2010)

itbites said:


> I couldn't agree more with this statement!
> 
> I find the whole morph/hybrid disturbing & the thought of purchasing an animal that later on after caring for raising etc will most likely end up neurologically deformed/retarded is horrible!
> 
> ...


 
So Itbites your dog lived a good life untill it came down with severe neuro issues and then it was put down ?
Sounds like something that a responcible RPM/jag owner would do in the same situation and most jags never get to the stage where they cannot eat for themslves etc.Jags feed and reproduce with neuro issues ???
But why was your dog allowed a chance at life ? I mean it developed neuro issues ?
By your rationale all animals that could possibly develope neuro issues should be put down at birth or the parents not even bred together ?


Roger


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

i have read from a few people (both here an other places) that its fairly rare they have extreme neuro problems
that result in an animal doing freaky back bending and cork screwing, is this right? or is it wrong?
im new to all this and am reading a lot but the Actual numbers of severe issues is hazy and a lot
of it all seems to be opinions or based on facts from some guy told me or i heard, 
so what would be a decent estimate of the % that do get real bad probs?


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## itbites (Nov 26, 2010)

My point to the post Roger

Is that it was heartbreaking having to watch her go through all the symptoms & make that decission!
If that could be avoided by not breeding to begin with....My question is *why do it?!*

If I had known that later on down the track only mid way through her life that my girl would have 
ended up with those sorts of problems & be put down at such a young age, 
would I have gone ahead & gotten her? I don't think so!


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 26, 2010)

Yes Itbites , 
We all love our pets,
Even a pretty carpet python that may develope neuro issues
but people can make a choice of which pets they choose.
Im sorry to hear about your dog
Dogs are special souls
I have owned many many pets of all types and its the most enjoyable part of my life being close to animals,
but animals can get sick and die and it herts us deeply when this happens .
But that should never stop you from getting another pet.
Pets are a joy to own and if some go threw medical condtions we just deal with it the best we can.
Chin up Itbites
cheers
Roger


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## giggle (Nov 26, 2010)

But that just sounds straight up dominant, put like that. With homozygous animals being fatal... and heterozygous animals being jag phenotype. 

Like in hairless dogs, homozygous animals are fatal. 



The_S_Word said:


> Here's a _*basic*_ run down on the way this co-dom gene works.
> (If i am wrong here can someone explain it in other words and I will stand corrected)
> 
> 
> ...


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> But that just sounds straight up dominant, put like that. With homozygous animals being fatal... and heterozygous animals being jag phenotype.
> 
> Like in hairless dogs, homozygous animals are fatal.



I dont work with genetics but that is my take on it.
Only reason I posted that was to correct your mis-information saying that the siblings could produce a jag if paired with the correct sibling.....(unless I interpreted your post incorrectly)


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## hornet (Nov 26, 2010)

giggle said:


> But that just sounds straight up dominant, put like that. With homozygous animals being fatal... and heterozygous animals being jag phenotype.
> 
> Like in hairless dogs, homozygous animals are fatal.


 
if it were dom there would be no such thing as jags, homozygous and heterozygous animals would both be leucistic. Dont think of it as the jag gene, think of it as the leucism gene. Homozygous for it and the animal will be leucistic, het for the gene and it will show reduced pattern (jags) and lacking the gene (homozygous for wild type) will show normal colors and patterns(jag sibs) of course the sibs will look different to a normal coastal or jungle as most have jungle and coastal genes mixed in plus their sibs (jags) have been bred for pattern and color so that will also show itself of the sibs. Get what i'm sayin? I know half the time its probably a little difficult to get what i'm saying, i tend to start rambling and lose people lol


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

Good point Hornet.

So in a way Jags are visable "hets" for leucism (so to speak)


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## Australis (Nov 26, 2010)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> I totally agree Micheal, & on to further issues Maybe Ausie breeders CAN produce better animals, & produce a line that have no neuro problems.
> It is really short term at present, all I can say is wait another year or two & then judge.



There was early talk (marketing?) that the neuro problems would be beaten here in Australia..something to do with some kind of genetic diversity we have here (lol). You seem to have bought into it Mr Davo, what in your opinion would another year or two do to change the situation?

I mean, my own perspective is o/s this _morph_ has been crossed to nearly every type of carpet python including specimens smuggled out of Australia (most obvious in Albinos o/s) as well as the legally imported carpets to the states from Oceania.
I'm not particularly good with genetics, but it seems dubious a plane trip to the southern hemisphere is going to fix a problem with this _morph_.. that has continually been out-crossed for what, going on a decade now?


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## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 26, 2010)

The_S_Word said:


> Can you explain in further detail "guarantees" and to what limit that they apply.
> 
> Cheers.


 


giggle said:


> Hey jungleman... this is a very good point  But people coming into the hobby don't know about the issue in the first place to be able to ask about guarantees etc. Its hard to find a reputable breeder when you dont even know what issues in the snakes you need to be looking for or getting guarantees for. Information is good for everyone involved


 
Hey guys, sorry it's been a long day and have only just got on to find further comments on this neuro debate which in-turn has been a really good read so far...

What I meant The_S_Word and giggle was more along the lines that breeders such as myself and the ones mentioned along with CarpetPythons.com.au and Jungle Freak that have made some valid points in this thread, are placing guarantees on their animals that they have not showed any signs of neuro symptons from the time of birth to months later when the hatching has fully developed and fed on it's own for x amount of months before being offered for sale (for those mentioned above or earlier, please correct me if i'm wrong). 

Now if we forget the Jag or RPM for just a moment and think of a normal python, for arguments sake a jungle python, the same above is offered as a guarantee from good breeders on the health of the Jungle hatchie before being sold, this also goes with every breed of python (jags excluded). Of course a reputable breeder is not going to hand over this little Jungle that has been showing some signs of illness in fear of losing his or her good name in this industry, but more importantly the health of the snake being compromised even further by handing over the animal to someone that maybe inexperienced in caring for it further should the problem get worse. The same is said for any jags or rpms that are sold, we are handing over the hatchie to you and guaranting it's health to be 100% at the point of sale. But just like the Jungle, who says that the jungle won't show some sort of illness 12 months, 3 years or even 10 years down the track? I'm sure a lot of breeders will agree that they have bought a perfectly good snake at some point in their years of being in the hobby from a reputable breeder and some years later, the snake has gotten sick for what ever reason. That is the risk you take with any animal you purchase, as heart drenching it is and it has happened to me before, I don't go running back years later to the breeder yelling 'REFUND'...

Other than this, I hope this thread keeps going and we can exchange some mature, constructive comments and ideas in helping this popular morph become even bigger, better and healthier in Australia for new and existing enthusiasts alike.


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## buck (Nov 27, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Hey guys, sorry it's been a long day and have only just got on to find further comments on this neuro debate which in-turn has been a really good read so far...
> 
> What I meant The_S_Word and giggle was more along the lines that breeders such as myself and the ones mentioned along with CarpetPythons.com.au and Jungle Freak that have made some valid points in this thread, are placing guarantees on their animals that they have not showed any signs of neuro symptons from the time of birth to months later when the hatching has fully developed and fed on it's own for x amount of months before being offered for sale (for those mentioned above or earlier, please correct me if i'm wrong).
> 
> ...


 
How can you say the hatchie is 100% healthy at the time of sale when it is carrying a gene that is known to produce neuro problems? I think it is very misleading to say that to a potential buyer. Why couldn't you just be upfront and let them know that it hasn't shown any signs yet, but statistically it more than likely will at some point in it's life? The link posted earlier in this thread has some posts from keepers in the US who have been working with these animals for far longer than anyone over here. I would be more inclined to listen to their stats then from the small sample over here.

I think this is the problem we are having here at the moment. There has been so much dishonesty to begin with that most people don't understand that the "RPM's" are even Jags, let alone the health issues that come with the morph. Breeders telling people they are hopeful of breeding the neuro gene out are kidding themselves. As stated earlier in this thread, these animals have been crossed over everything thousands of times overseas and they still can't seperate the neuro gene from the Jag gene.

People need to be made aware of the ugly side to this beautiful morph. Only then can informed decisions be made. And still then some might not be able to make up their mind. Unfortunately this is where I fit in. I have a ripper RP jungle girl and I keep thinking what she would produce with a nice Jag. Unfortunately I am struggling getting my head around the ethical/moral side of Jags.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 27, 2010)

And when you see a pretty one in the flesh it will make up your mind for you.


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## buck (Nov 27, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> The fact is that there is nothing we could say that would make you change your mind.
> I haven't even made my mind up yet. Just trying to get the facts out there
> 
> You are of the opinion and many others are of the opinion; that all the keepers that bought jags are only in it to make money! You also believe that we have zero interest in the good health of the animals in question? We love our Jags more than any of our other snakes, regardless of the fact that they might end up Stupid. We realise that these animals could stay in our collection for the next 20 years and we are ok with that! Along with another couple of hundred or so. We are fully commited to all our animals welfare over the long haul, we dont flog them off when they are worth nothing or when they get too old to breed. They grow old and die in our care! After all, they offered us their life for our pleasure.
> ...


 .


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 27, 2010)

buck said:


> How can you say the hatchie is 100% healthy at the time of sale when it is carrying a gene that is known to produce neuro problems? I think it is very misleading to say that to a potential buyer. Why couldn't you just be upfront and let them know that it hasn't shown any signs yet, but statistically it more than likely will at some point in it's life? The link posted earlier in this thread has some posts from keepers in the US who have been working with these animals for far longer than anyone over here. I would be more inclined to listen to their stats then from the small sample over here.
> 
> I think this is the problem we are having here at the moment. There has been so much dishonesty to begin with that most people don't understand that the "RPM's" are even Jags, let alone the health issues that come with the morph. Breeders telling people they are hopeful of breeding the neuro gene out are kidding themselves. As stated earlier in this thread, these animals have been crossed over everything thousands of times overseas and they still can't seperate the neuro gene from the Jag gene.
> 
> People need to be made aware of the ugly side to this beautiful morph. Only then can informed decisions be made. And still then some might not be able to make up their mind. Unfortunately this is where I fit in. I have a ripper RP jungle girl and I keep thinking what she would produce with a nice Jag. Unfortunately I am struggling getting my head around the ethical/moral side of Jags.


 
I had similar thoughts before i bought mine a couple years ago, but now i know it is pretty much a non-issue in almost all cases.mountain out of a mole hill.

as i stated earlier,no one is blowing up about the ethological issue of owning diamonds because they have a big chance of delevoping DPS that leads to a painful, bone breaking and neurological death.i personally know,losing 2 adults at around 7 - 8 years of age and its very sad to watch.
At least the little neuro problem in jags doesn't kill them.Its just tiny hiccup in their system that doesn't effect their way of life.it is a very small percentage of jags that end up with a major neuro issue and i would suggest that there is alot higher percentage of diamonds will surcome to DPS than jags to serious neuro issues.

So if your happy to purchase a diamond ,knowing that if it isn't kept correctly it will die a painful death in 7-10 years,then owning a jag is no problem.

My doubts i had before i purchased my jag have been quashed .she is a joy to own and has plenty of personallity and every time i walk past her cage i have those big silver eyes staring at me hoping for a feed,she is a hungry gutted pig.

cheers
simon


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 27, 2010)

buck said:


> I'm all for open discussion on the topic. The more the better - pro's and con's.
> 
> From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.



Here it is, are you too lazy to make the effort to go and look what you said? Who I keep company with is my own business and I don't really think it has any relevance when it comes to Jags. I can assure you that the company that I keep, has done more good for the reptile hobby and contributed more than the majority on this forum including you! [deleted]


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 27, 2010)

"I say that because non, with the exception of Roger, of the Jag breeders or future breeders will acknowledge the facts from OS and whenever they get brought up "It's been done to death"

How do you come to this conclusion? The facts are that none of all our jags have shown Any neuro issues! I might even fly you down from wherever you are to let you have a look. Why would I come on a forum and post that my Jags might have neuro issues when I have not seen or heard of it in any of our lines? Neither has anybody else that own these lines. We have not bred jags yet, but will inform people about the possible neuro issues once we do. 

You keep going on about these issues? There is only one issue and that is that people have to be honest. Neither you nor anybody else can decide the honesty of breeders.


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## buck (Nov 27, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Here it is, are you too lazy to make the effort to go and look what you said? Who I keep company with is my own business and I don't really think it has any relevance when it comes to Jags. I can assure you that the company that I keep, has done more good for the reptile hobby and contributed more than the majority on this forum including you! [deleted]


I am more than aware of what I said. There is a difference between investing money in something and only being involved in something for money.
Maybe it isn't a case so much of my laziness to check what I previously said as it is your inability to understand the difference between what I said and what you percieved that I have said.
As far as discussing the other stuff.... I would be more than happy to but not on this forum. We both know it would be deleted as will most likely most of this. I can't believe that you believe you have the pull here for it not to be. moderatators decide what gets deleted not members - C
Unfortunately this thread is going down hill. I apologise for my part in that!!!!!


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## buck (Nov 27, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> "I say that because non, with the exception of Roger, of the Jag breeders or future breeders will acknowledge the facts from OS and whenever they get brought up "It's been done to death"
> 
> How do you come to this conclusion? The facts are that none of all our jags have shown Any neuro issues! I might even fly you down from wherever you are to let you have a look. Why would I come on a forum and post that my Jags might have neuro issues when I have not seen or heard of it in any of our lines? Neither has anybody else that own these lines. We have not bred jags yet, but will inform people about the possible neuro issues once we do.
> 
> You keep going on about these issues? There is only one issue and that is that people have to be honest. Neither you nor anybody else can decide the honesty of breeders.



Read the thread in the link posted earlier in this thread. That is how I come to the conclusion. 

So your lines aren't the same as the ones from SOuthernX?? Are you aware that they had a Jag show signs? I believe there has been two others.

I agree that no one bar the breeder him/herselves can decide the honesty of breeders. As stated earlier I applaud you for your honesty in your refund policy. I also think breeders have to be honest with themselves too. Not sure how a breeder can stare the facts from OS in the face and say it won't happen to them. That is all.

I'm not sure if they can or not but let's say doctors were able to identify the gene responsible for Parkinsons. If I were told that I had that gene, even though I might not show signs at present, I would have to believe that at some point it is going to develop.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 27, 2010)

We have not had to discuss the neuro issue with customers as we have not bred them yet! The forum has not allowed for neuro discussions to take place on here as it involves the patron of the site. There are other factors involved in the disclosure of the neuro issues to date. You have to bear this in mind Buck.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 27, 2010)

buck said:


> How can you say the hatchie is 100% healthy at the time of sale when it is carrying a gene that is known to produce neuro problems? I do believe that I answered this question more then once in the 2nd and 3rd paragraph. I think it is very misleading to say that to a potential buyer. Why couldn't you just be upfront and let them know that it hasn't shown any signs yet, but statistically it more than likely will at some point in it's life? Again, do your research on the animal in question and on reputible breeders that will tell you there is a possibility it could happen later in life. The link posted earlier in this thread has some posts from keepers in the US who have been working with these animals for far longer than anyone over here. I would be more inclined to listen to their stats then from the small sample over here. That is in the US, this is Australia, we are approaching this new morph from a completely different angle and learning from them so as to avoid making the same mistakes
> 
> I think this is the problem we are having here at the moment. There has been so much dishonesty to begin with that most people don't understand that the "RPM's" are even Jags, let alone the health issues that come with the morph. We are on here being open aren't we, I don't see how any of us are being dishonest. Breeders telling people they are hopeful of breeding the neuro gene out are kidding themselves. When have we ever mentioned this? As stated earlier in this thread, these animals have been crossed over everything thousands of times overseas and they still can't seperate the neuro gene from the Jag gene. We are fully aware of this.
> 
> People need to be made aware of the ugly side to this beautiful morph. Only then can informed decisions be made. And still then some might not be able to make up their mind. Unfortunately this is where I fit in. I have a ripper RP jungle girl and I keep thinking what she would produce with a nice Jag. Unfortunately I am struggling getting my head around the ethical/moral side of Jags. As CarpetPythons.com.au has already mentioned, when you see them in the flesh and you have done your research on both animal and breeder, I'm sure you will be confident enough in making your own decision


 


slimebo said:


> I had similar thoughts before i bought mine a couple years ago, but now i know it is pretty much a non-issue in almost all cases.mountain out of a mole hill.
> 
> as i stated earlier,no one is blowing up about the ethological issue of owning diamonds because they have a big chance of delevoping DPS that leads to a painful, bone breaking and neurological death.i personally know,losing 2 adults at around 7 - 8 years of age and its very sad to watch.
> At least the little neuro problem in jags doesn't kill them.Its just tiny hiccup in their system that doesn't effect their way of life.it is a very small percentage of jags that end up with a major neuro issue and i would suggest that there is alot higher percentage of diamonds will surcome to DPS than jags to serious neuro issues.
> ...


 
Well said and totally agree Simon. I've noticed that still know one has admitted owning a Diamond and wether they have fallen victim to DPS? I for one have lost 2 Diamonds to DPS, and was fully aware of this cripling disease before purchasing. Not only did it break my heart to see them go through this, but thousands of dollars later in vet bills...they still died. Not once did I blame the breeders, nor did I ask for any refund as I was the only responsible one that decided on the purchase in the first place knowing fully well that this was a possibility. But no amount of money even comes to mind when it comes to the amount of joy I got from owing them, and would do it all over again in a heart beat. This is part and parcel of owning such a rare and beautiful animal, there is always a risk involved of that animal getting sick, or even dying.

Look at some fish or bird owners, they spend thousands of dollars on one particular breed that maybe rare in Australia and a few days, months or even years later it dies on them for all different types of reasons. But yet they go and purchase another one simply for their love of this animal and want to see it do well in captivity and for others to enjoy the same appreciation.




buck said:


> Read the thread in the link posted earlier in this thread. That is how I come to the conclusion.
> 
> So your lines aren't the same as the ones from SOuthernX?? Are you aware that they had a Jag show signs? I believe there has been two others. If you were to say thousands or even hundreds of cases in Australia, then it would be warranted to have something to worry about, but two???
> 
> ...


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## ihaveherps (Nov 27, 2010)

Is Colin on holidays? no simon.. are you? 

Its good to see the truth finally getting out there, I dont see why there had to be smoke and mirrors for so long, should have been on the table from the get go and as such it has led to a knee-jerk reaction. Though that is entirely the fault of those who perpetuated the mis-information for so long to begin with.

Alot of correct info is finally surfacing now, and from those involved with the animals themselves. This is commendable, even though it is long over-due. In the past, there has been a minority of Jag keepers with the plums to go against the flow and correct some of the mis-information, maybe not to the explicit lenghts that is now being shown.... though this thread, and others elsewhere, have bought a few new people to the surface who are claiming to be moral pillars of the Jag community, though were silent, if not dismissive of the reality of the situation until now, which is very transparent.

Anyway, not too long ago, some headway was made with alot of the open Jag keepers in a thread. Now Im not necessarily anti-jag, nor pro either, Im a fence sitter who most likely will never be a part of the jag scene, though the thorn in my side has been the smoke and mirrors and dis-information.

Seeing as there is now clutches in incubators, this undoubtedly being the yr that these animals really penetrate the hobby in a major way... as a hobby, what is the community consensus going to be, can we as a group all agree on some standards for lack of a better word. Jags wont appeal to everyone, but can the community agree on standards for tagging the Jag siblings, or are supposed coastal jag sibs to be called pure coastals (I hope not).... these kinds of issues need to be nutted out from the beginning, before the jag landscape turns into the wild west.

We have now come to parity with the international community regarding the understanding of the 
neuro issues... agreeing all Jags have neuro conditions, 80% displaying the condition physically at some time in their lives, though of that 80% they cover a spectrum, from the slightest of co-ordination malfunction ie. not the best aim striking at feed items, to the minority of full blown cases which are the reptilian incarnation of Nadia Comaneci. We now have that nailled down, but while the Irons hot, lets see how much of the full spectrum of issues these jags have the possibility of casting across the morelia niche of the hobby can be addressed and agreed upon...

Cheers,
Herpes


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## Jay84 (Nov 27, 2010)

giggle said:


> LMAO its funny how not one, but a bunch of people jumped on my comment as though I am an experienced person that should know better.
> Not at all...... it just so happens there are alot of eyes on this thread and so when you made an error there were a few people reading at the same time who corrected you. Not ''jumped'' on your comment as if you should know better.
> 
> Its funny how a quest for information ends in bickering about who knows more. I've already said I know nothing about this morph.
> ...


 
If i made an error then i would appreciate being corrected. I dont think anyone was trying to belittle you.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 27, 2010)

Ihaveherps: All good and well these issues get nutted out on a forum, the problem will be with the keepers that do not venture onto the forums. We will be adding a page to our site that states all the information needed to make an educated decision about purchasing these animals. We will also add our terms and conditions. This should make the process of purchasing a jag as transparent as it could possibly be!


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 27, 2010)

Raven said:


> This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.
> 
> "Neuro Jags"


 
This forum is really worth looking at & would awnser most questions for most people.
It certianly shed more light on the subject for me.
Cheers


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## waruikazi (Nov 27, 2010)

It has been a while since i have become more than a little passionate about one of our threads. The topic of JAGs just about makes my blood boil. 

Under each state and territories animal wlefare act keepers have a duty of care to their animals to ensure that they are free from pain and distress. JAGs have a genetic illness, that is simple fact. The gene is homo lethal! To knowingly breed an animal that _WILL _have a neorological disorder is dispicable. Then to go on and make money from that illness... I'm just about speechless!

Unfortunately i know the burden of proof is on me and others who disagree with breeding JAGs. Prove an animals is in distress and I know the rebuttles that breeders will spout, 'They eat, poop, breed etc, they can't be that distressed.'

On the first page there was the comment to buy from a reputable breeder. One, you can't breed out the JAG gene and still have a JAG. Two (without mentioning names, i don't want to break rule 14) one major supplier of RPM (JAGS) has sold these animals with full knowledge of the neuro issues, yet did not disclose the issues to the buyers.


Quote by Fay It is only someone's word that this was not disclosed to the customer.I find this hard to believe. No one has any proof otherwise.


Not to mention the dubious nature of how they turned up on our shores (anyone involved with JAGs in Australia, in my eyes, is guilty of aid and abeting the smuggling and trade of illegal wildlife). My interpretation of the laws and guidelines that inform our hobby, is breeding JAGs is tantamount to animal cruelty.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 27, 2010)

Ihaveherps: All good and well these issues get nutted out on a forum, the problem will be with the keepers that do not venture onto the forums. We will be adding a page to our site that states all the information needed to make an educated decision about purchasing these animals. We will also add our terms and conditions. This should make the process of purchasing a jag as transparent as it could possibly be!​

Good call, I will be doing the same


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 27, 2010)

turtle1 said:


> So next time a newbie posts"looking for pet snake"we should have a Jag as a perfect option?????


 you can if you want, thats the awesome thing about opinions, you and i and everyone is entitled to one and i have been speaking to some jag/morph owners and from their experience they told me they had more probs with jungles than their jags 
but people continually tell people to get jungles even tho their bitie flightie and easy to stress (told to me buy several jungle owners).
also he didnt say it was the perfect newbie pet, he said its a perfect pet. big difference there mate


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## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 27, 2010)

Did anyone see the ad on Herp Trader (033-103) RPM Coastal Carpet Python Morph for $2,500?...

Unfortunately there are a few out there, but these are the types you have to watch out for!


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## blakehose (Nov 27, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Did anyone see the ad on Herp Trader (033-103) RPM Coastal Carpet Python Morph for $2,500?...
> 
> Unfortunately there are a few out there, but these are the types you have to watch out for!



Saw that one Wayne - I found it entertaining.


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## giggle (Nov 27, 2010)

I don't mean to upset... but it sounds more like a case of incomplete dominance rather than co-dominance. I may be further misunderstanding lol I know sometimes people simplify genetics to make it easier to understand but I find it harder to understand that way.
but your example sounded good  I tend to ramble a bit as well 

Co-dominant doesn't result in a blending of the two, it results in both alleles fighting for dominance, if that makes sense. For example, you may get a striped animal and a spotted animal and if co-dominant, you would get a spotted striped animal. Both phenotypes would be present. If the genes were incomplete dominant, you would get an animal with halfway between spots and stripes, with elongated spots or the like... the phenotype would be a blend 
lol maybe colour is a better example, say you had a red flower and a white flower... and you bred them together and the alleles for both were co-dominant... you would end up with a flower with red and white spots. If red was incomplete dominant, you would end up with pink flowers instead  Thankyou wikipedia for that example.
Co-dominance implies that the wild type is as dominant as the jag type. Whereas incomplete dominance allows a blending of the two... which makes more sense. Unless you are talking about jag not being co-dominant with the wild type, but being co-dominant with another morph? In which case that would make more sense.



hornet said:


> if it were dom there would be no such thing as jags, homozygous and heterozygous animals would both be leucistic. Dont think of it as the jag gene, think of it as the leucism gene. Homozygous for it and the animal will be leucistic, het for the gene and it will show reduced pattern (jags) and lacking the gene (homozygous for wild type) will show normal colors and patterns(jag sibs) of course the sibs will look different to a normal coastal or jungle as most have jungle and coastal genes mixed in plus their sibs (jags) have been bred for pattern and color so that will also show itself of the sibs. Get what i'm sayin? I know half the time its probably a little difficult to get what i'm saying, i tend to start rambling and lose people lol


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## CodeRed (Nov 27, 2010)

giggle said:


> I don't mean to upset... but it sounds more like a case of incomplete dominance rather than co-dominance. I may be further misunderstanding lol I know sometimes people simplify genetics to make it easier to understand but I find it harder to understand that way.
> but your example sounded good  I tend to ramble a bit as well
> 
> Co-dominant doesn't result in a blending of the two, it results in both alleles fighting for dominance, if that makes sense. For example, you may get a striped animal and a spotted animal and if co-dominant, you would get a spotted striped animal. Both phenotypes would be present. If the genes were incomplete dominant, you would get an animal with halfway between spots and stripes, with elongated spots or the like... the phenotype would be a blend
> ...



Please no more giggle dribble. Its been long established that the trait is co-dominant.


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## Kyro (Nov 27, 2010)

.


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## giggle (Nov 27, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> Please no more giggle dribble. Its been long established that the trait is co-dominant.



Im just trying to understand thats all :| Im interested.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 27, 2010)

Everyone has had a good say on this thread .
People are entittled to their own point of view etc
but surely its time to close this one.


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## giggle (Nov 27, 2010)

Is it a co-dom modifier gene?


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## AM Pythons (Nov 27, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Did anyone see the ad on Herp Trader (033-103) RPM Coastal Carpet Python Morph for $2,500?...
> 
> Unfortunately there are a few out there, but these are the types you have to watch out for!


 yep.. seen that this morning..


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 27, 2010)

Giggle 

The jags are Co Dom mode of inheritance because they can produce a super form .

2 jags bred together produce 1/4 supers , ie Leucistis carpet python that do not survive long after leaving the egg.

then 1/2 of the jag to jag clutct will be jags ,

then 1/4 normal sibs

This is a widely known fact .

Roger


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## AM Pythons (Nov 27, 2010)

Jungleman said:


> Did anyone see the ad on Herp Trader (033-103) RPM Coastal Carpet Python Morph for $2,500?...
> 
> Unfortunately there are a few out there, but these are the types you have to watch out for!


there will be alot more ads like that one..


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## Colin (Nov 27, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Everyone has had a good say on this thread .
> People are entittled to their own point of view etc
> but surely its time to close this one.


 
I think your probably right roger.. it seems to have gone off track..


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