# Designer Morphs



## ad (Feb 1, 2006)

Apparently hybrid hets will be on the 'market' this season for $2500. 
These would be the offspring of an albino male with a bredli.
Just interested in a little 'market' survey.


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## Rennie (Feb 1, 2006)

Is that how much I can afford to pay or how much I think its worth? :lol: 
I guess they could potentially be worth a lot to some but not to those who like to keep locality pure bloodliines.
It also depends on what they actually look like. I'm assuming they'll look awesome!!


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## thals (Feb 1, 2006)

Just my own humble opinion, but I'd prefer a pure local animal anyday. Not that I particularly have anything against hybrids but the pure local animal would always be top preference for me when it comes to my pets. Especially when you see some of the prices some 'designer animals' can cost, its just not a worthwhile expense in my books, and why fork out so much cash on a hybrid when you can have the real deal! I mean sure some of these animals may look amazing, but I think the pure local animals we have with us now are simply stunning and should not be overlooked or passed off as boring or blazae'. Just my $10 bucks worth :lol:


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## Dicco (Feb 1, 2006)

I personnaly don't see any appeal in a snake that looks like a pre-schoolers finger painting. Our Pythons are our Wild Native Fauna, they have evolved so many different and unique patterns and colourations it isn't funny. I don't see turning them in to a things that look as thought they have been attacked with a paint gun as appealing and I see it as something that just draws in more people who see snake keeping as a novelty, people who don't want a regular snake because for some reason they are 'boring' and to show off to their mates their new techni coloured Jungle/Darwin/Bredli het for albino. 

Sure there are people with a real repect for the animals who like morphs hybrids ect, but these sort of things drive the commercialism of reptiles, and I believe this is only good for those wanting to make a nice return on the animals. Making a live animal a commercial bi-product is not generally good for the animal, like in pet shops. The wrong sort of people are drawn in by all they hybrid and morph hype, with the animals best interests having no real importance, but simply want them for the novelty, this seems to happen to scrubbies a bit because of their size, people like the novelty of having a huge impressive snake, and even though their interntions are good, it's not always the smartest thing.

You don't need to make Reptiles eye candy to enjoy them, with 800+ reptiles and amphibians with countless sub species and varients, there's already plenty to choose from already.


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## ad (Feb 1, 2006)

Great post Dicco - Well said


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2006)

I'm not sure if commercialism of reptiles is relevant, we all buy and sell reptiles and it doesn't matter if they are $100 or $10,000.
Do you agree with breeding for colour or breeding for the hypo trait ? 
No we don't NEED to make them eye candy to enjoy them but personally I like them both ways and don't see it as being mutually exclusive. I have plenty of room for both in my collection.


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2006)

So far it's about 50/50 which you would expect.


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## steve6610 (Feb 1, 2006)

hi all,
all i got to say is where do i get myself a pair, hybreds or morphs or crosses or what ever you want to call them will have a place in many peoples collections, and very soon, and i bet theres heaps of you that already have them and don't know it, 

come on dicco, you really going to tell me that if offered one at the right price you would turn it down, 
you might, 
but i've got the nerve to say that i'd buy 1 in a second, 

how many people can really say they have PURE snakes, might be a few and a few that think they do, but unless you catch 2 wild snakes from the same area and breed them together you will not know for certain if your snakes are PURE, over the last how ever many years all it would take is 1 person to breed these pure snakes with 1 that came from somewhere else and it would stuff up all the rest of the pure snakes bred from that line, 

but thats just my opinion and i'm not hiding under a log or rock keeping it to myself

cheers,
steve.........


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2006)

I have to agree Steve, I think you will find the majority would buy some. How many people have hypo Bredli, linebred Blond Maccies, striped Carpets ? Not crosses but animals selectively bred for a trait. We all want them in one form or another.


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## steve6610 (Feb 1, 2006)

thats what i mean boa, i'm not going to hide away like some others, i have just bought a line bred pair of blonde maccies, i'm getting some hypo bredlis, i also have a pair of hypo coastals, along with some striped coastals, i also have a darwin / coastal that was bought as a coastal, the list can go on, just like other peoples collections if they really looked into them, i also have one of the dreaded intergrades, and she was bred to a coastal male and produced some ripper hatchlings, but thats another story that i've already coped heaps of bull over from the same old same old people, 

( still have a couple left if your interested in 1 ) lol, 

cheers,
steve........


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## ad (Feb 1, 2006)

Boa & Steve,
We arent debating whether to cross animals or not - it is the pricing of the crossbreed hets.
These animals will look like normal hybrids which sell for very little, how much extra will people pay for the priveledge of owning an ugly snake simply because it will spit out a few albinos in 3 years time.
"What price?" is the question.
Ad


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## inthegrass (Feb 1, 2006)

i agree with dicco.
cheers.


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## ad (Feb 1, 2006)

> ( still have a couple left if your interested in 1 ) lol,


How much?
and how much if it was a het?


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## basketcase (Feb 1, 2006)

crossing albino darwins to bredli is the same as crossiing two normals imo. it should stay within the species (variegata) when breeding albinos cause in the future there'll be confusion over whats what.

a mungrel is a mungrel, its just a bad idea.


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## steve6610 (Feb 1, 2006)

> Boa & Steve,
> We arent debating whether to cross animals or not - it is the pricing of the crossbreed hets.



hi ad,
i'm sorry but i didn't start the talk about whether to or not to, it was a couple above mine and boas posts, and if you will look you'll see what i mean, lol, 



> Quote: ?
> ( still have a couple left if your interested in 1 ) lol,
> 
> 
> ...



lol, not sure about the het, lol, but i sold them for $130.00 each, 
all apart from 1 i kept, he's a ripper, just hope he keeps looking close to what he is now, but only time will tell, 

by the way adam, i do think it's a good thread to put up, 

cheers,
steve...........


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## Moreliaman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sorry the albino gene has never done anything for me ! in this particular case i'd go for the pure strain.

Im inclined to agree with Basketcase, keep species the same.............bredli x bredli or variegata x variegata.


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## ad (Feb 2, 2006)

No problems at all Steve,
Hybrids are being bred and will definitely be in the future.
I think there will be some nice snakes being bred, but I also think there will be a lot of ugly ones. The nice ones will be held back. 200+ hybrid het hatchies could hit the market this season. Im just interested in peoples opinions on the value of them.
Cheers
Ad


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## Duke_jensen (Feb 2, 2006)

I personally love albino's but I wouldn't pay any more then about 2000 for a het x, I would rather spend the full 6600 and get a full albino then cross it myself, and I would probly try and cross it with a black and gold jungle.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

I know the question specifically asked what someone would pay but peoples attitude to the snakes and specifally their attitude to hybrids and crosses is relevant in coming to the final answer. It is obvious that at present more would pay decent money for a het, this comes as no surprise but I'm not sure why those who don't agree get so worked up, morphs do not mean possibly pure animals will die out, I like both as do most keepers.
Also I'm sure sure why it is assumed a hybrid is called ugly before it is seen ?


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## ad (Feb 2, 2006)

> I know the question specifically asked what someone would pay but peoples attitude to the snakes and specifally their attitude to hybrids and crosses is relevant in coming to the final answer.


Point taken - to decide what you think they are worth you would need an opinion if you like them or not.


> It is obvious that at present more would pay decent money for a het, this comes as no surprise


No, what is obvious is 50% of herpers wont touch them at all - of the rest Im sure most were voted by people who intend to produce not purchase - as in your own vote no doubt.


> Also I'm sure sure why it is assumed a hybrid is called ugly before it is seen ?


Maybe an albino cross might look new and interesting but the std old hets - well - $130 for a std hybrid shows where the std hybrid market sits atm - and the breeder says they were 'ripper hatchlings'


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## TrueBlue (Feb 2, 2006)

I new this would happen, Mr Greedy trying to make money off peices of rubbish.
I wouldnt pay one dollar for a hybrid wether it was het for albino or not.
IMO he needs to pull his head in and grow some sence.


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## ad (Feb 2, 2006)

Id imagine with 200+ hybrid hets there will be of course 200+ albino crosses and quite a few actual variegata albinos. Im sure the pretty albinos will sell, but hybrid hets - a few freezers will be busy I reckon - as has happened already if you believe the rumour - more important to protect a market than the animals well being.

It will be interesting to see how the NPWS pursue their non-cross breeding clauses and pursue non-breeding of albino species in Qld (not sure of other states but qld npws doesnt like albinos being bred).
They allow us to keep native animals - what will be there views when we show we arent happy with just natives.

When buying a het - wow - talk about breeder trust - imagine raising an animal for 3 years and breeding it to find you were sold a dud. but that surely wont happen will it?


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

Albinos aren't native ??


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## Moreliaman (Feb 2, 2006)

happens here all the time ! unless you know the breeder you cant be sure anyway.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

Moreliaman, unfortunately that will always happen. You take a big gamble buying hets but the rewards can be big, you win some you lose some.
I think what we need to remember here is that we are all different, we all like different things, both sides are right but neither side is wrong but we should respect each others views and not make it personal. I have never understood the need to do that.
As long the animals aren't being hurt and in this situation they aren't then live and let live, if you don't want any then don't buy any but if you decide you do then buy them and enjoy.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2006)

*Post subject: Designer Morphs Posted: Feb 01, 2006 - 10:30*

If I had the choice of getting one pure albino darwin for say $5000 or a pair of hybrid hets for $5000 (ie the $2500ea originally suggested) I'd take the pure albino darwin anyday, but thats just me....

I"d also definately prefer for example, a pair of genunine darwins, het for albino for $5000pr than a pair of hybrids het for whatever. 

Cheers


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## beknluke (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm not really for or against either - I agree with what many people have said here and in previous threads, that hybrids are the direction that we're heading in.
As for what I would rather buy? I would rather go the actual albino Vs the het b/c the risk is quite high that you will get a dud (unless of course you can afford to buy a few of them so that your chances are higher of getting 2 hets)
As for whether I would prefer pure or hybrid - for me, I would be buying for what the animal looks like. If it's an albino and its colours and patterns don't appeal to me, then I won't buy it. Same goes for a hybrid. But if its looks and colours DO appeal to me, I would buy either.
Price? If I liked it THAT much, I would try to scrape together what the breeder was asking, but if I couldn't afford it, then I just wouldn't buy it. Simple as that.
If womas were cheaper, I would have a pair already cos I really like what they look like, but I can't afford them so don't have them. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't pay if I didn't have the $$.
Just my (probably) ignorant opinion as I'm not very clued up when it comes to pythons.
Great subject by the way Ad 
Bex

As for Lukes opinion, he says that he would go a pure any day because once you start crossinging animals, you get a mixture of genes and it's not really a Bredli, or a Darwin, or a Woma anymore. It's just a different looking 'python'.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

Bex, you bring up some good and interesting points. Firstly I would like to say that I think the future is morphs, not hybrids. Hybrids will I feel play a part but I think morphs generally will be the big winners. 
How many people can honestly say they would phone a seller and say 'yeah just send me anyone of the hatchlings, I don't care what it looks like' ? That doesn't happen or at least it shouldn't. We pick and choose our animals by the way they look or often more importantly the way the parents look. 
If an animal appeals to someone it wont make any difference to that person what the parents where. The money side of it is a different matter, we will pay what we can afford and no more, as you rightly say.
Buying hets isn't always a gamble but certainly buying possible hets is. 
No opinion is ignorant by the way. You don't have to know pythons you only need to know what you like.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

It is interesting to see how the voting is going, pretty much as I would have expected. Interesting because the majority voted the same as me price wise.

I have included a photo of a carpet morph, now totally disregarding the fact that it was crossed, hybridised or whatever how many people can say with their hand on their heart that they wouldn't have this animal in their collection ?
Again this is the kind of animal that these theoretical hets can and do produce and has a huge bearing on what the average keeper is prepared to pay.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Feb 2, 2006)

Mr greedy here, There is a big difference between a possible het and a definitive. You would be absolutely stupid to buy a possible het given the odds. But a definite het would insure you albinos in your first year breeding them. I would not bother with possible and it is highly unlikely that i would sell my definite hets. There you go, Mr Greedys opinion!!!!! I know of many top breeders who are going to cross out! So its not just me with that idea. And just by the way, I have never paid for a het of any type of albino or morph. I like to know what i am getting, so go Homozygous!!!!!!!


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## ad (Feb 2, 2006)

I would rather one of these - and it is a pure locale animal.


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## Magpie (Feb 2, 2006)

I vote for who cares.
A hyrbid het what?
Scrubby X two headed taipan?
You aren't getting a result with your poll, you are asking maybe 0.1% or less of the herpers in australia and not even a decent cross section at that.
Pay what ya like for what ya like I say.
No way known would i pay $1k for a jungle, yet it's done all the time.


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## NoOne (Feb 2, 2006)

Boa i can honestly say i wouldn't want that in my collection, because it's hybrid, you can't put the fact aside that it is.
The way i see hybrids is that they have no natural history behind them, just a freak that someone made in their house.

Alot of the reason i love the reptile species i keep is because of where they come from and why they are the way they are, it amazes me that mother nature can create such perfect animals to live in our various enviroments, i appreciate that. It's one of the most interesting things about them.
To me that makes all the difference.

What can you say about a hybrid?...............it's a snake, thats it. Not very special or interesting really.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 2, 2006)

Well said dug, IMO pure speices albinos are worth money, hybrids wether albino or not arnt worth any thing.
Why breed some thing that will be worth stuff all when the real thing is worth good money. Only a pretentious fool would pay good money for a mongel, wether its amelainistic, het or normal.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

And I totally respect that opinion. Why do you assume that snake is a hybrid ? What gives it away to you ? If it wasn't in fact a hybrid would it alter your view ? 



dugadugabowbow said:


> Boa i can honestly say i wouldn't want that in my collection, because it's hybrid, you can't put the fact aside that it is.
> The way i see hybrids is that they have no natural history behind them, just a freak that someone made in their house.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes that's a very nice snake Adam and I could find a place for it, not a big Jungle fan but it's nice.


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## krusty (Feb 2, 2006)

if you dont like them you dont have to buy them


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## krusty (Feb 2, 2006)

thats a great looking snake ad


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## NoOne (Feb 2, 2006)

boa said:


> I have included a photo of a carpet morph, *now totally disregarding the fact that it was crossed, hybridised or whatever* how many people can say with their hand on their heart that they wouldn't have this animal in their collection ?


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## Dicco (Feb 2, 2006)

Steve, I can honestly say even if I was offered one for free I would not take it, I have no reason to, most crosses look pretty crap or at the least not as good as the parents, so they would have no look appeal that non cross wouldn't have. 

They are mixed blood, just something a person created, I can't even say which general reigon they come from, I could just as easily get a nice animal with locale background that has unique traits to it's area, habitat or region, I can say, This animal come from this region an occupies this type of habitat ect. 

As for the albino gene, albino's are ok in my books, but they aren't as appealing to me really and I could always get a pure albino anyway(well, not easily if every one crosses their albinos to this and that). And I have no interest what so ever in making big money off my herps, so creating a fleet of hybrid mongrels to sell is of no interest to me.

Boa, I don't really see much in that animal to be brutally honest, just looks strange to me, a mate showed me a pic of a nice Brissie Carpet, the animal has nice patterns and colourations and I truely see it as more beautiful than the animal in the pic you posted and I can say the geo-graphic reigon it is from, the different traits it has to other Carpets from QLD and know it is something created by the amazing forces and pressures of nature.

I would also *much* prefer the animal Ad posted to the one you did and could happily tell people the natural history of that reigonal variant, looks are a factor in choosing snakes, but not the only one, I could get a 'pretty' snake, or a 'pretty' snake with a natural history.

And it's not hard at all to get garenteed pure animals, Rob and many more respected breeders have some of the most gorgeous animals, with background information of their natural history to go with them. I don't see snakes as pets, I see them as our marvalous Native Fauna which we are priveliged to keep, and I don't see how making them into the latest in designer fashion has any real purpose, appeal or respect for our unique contry and all that comes from it.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2006)

In my opinion, if nature throws a mutation in a species, then thats a great addition to the hobby. But it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when people hybridise species in captivity for the sole purpose of making a quick buck. 

As reptile keepers and herpetologists, I feel we owe something to the animals in our care in captivity and to bastardise their species, I think is not in the best interests of the animals, their species in general and for the future reptile keepers who will inherit mongrel strains of animals and suffer the mistakes of a greedy few. (in my opinion)

Imagine this...what if there is a big move towards this deliberate hybridisation between species... and the government regulatory bodies such as the NPWS did'nt take to kindly to it, (which I'm sure they would'nt) and reacted in some way... such as maybe making the "monetary sale" of reptiles illegal as it was in the early 1990's in a bid to prevent hybridisation occuring?


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't get it, didn't you already reply to this statement earlier on ? :? 



dugadugabowbow said:


> boa said:
> 
> 
> > I have included a photo of a carpet morph, *now totally disregarding the fact that it was crossed, hybridised or whatever* how many people can say with their hand on their heart that they wouldn't have this animal in their collection ?
> ...


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

This is exactly the point, they are not for everyone and like buying a car you buy what appeals to you. It in no way hurts the snake, it is none the wiser as far as it's origins go. I do find these discussions extremely interesting and informative, I think as long as everyone respects the opinions of others it can only help our hobby long term and as long as we always have people breeding locale pure animals and we need that, I will have both in my collection. 



krusty said:


> if you dont like them you dont have to buy them


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## ihaveherps (Feb 2, 2006)

I personally wouldnt touch these hybrids with a stick, but am looking into guaranteed Darwin Hets (which should be easily proven through F1 Albino x Normal pairing) and would be willing to pay around the 2000 mark. 

Ad those cape trib jungles are stunning and i have been dying to get some for my collection.

Boa that hybrid is also a stunning animal IMO and honestly i probably would buy it (for the right price) as a display animal, even though i am trying my best to collect my animas locality pure for my own satisfaction, and if it was mine i wouldnt breed it.

I have kept an eye on this thread and was only motivated to post after reading the absurd number of these specific mutts to be produced! We all agree that hybrids are being produced, and if someone is doing it out of interest, experimenting with variation and sells them to correctly informed customers then good for them, as it is their perogative. But whom ever is looking at producing in this amount is only motivated by money, and producing this many F1's clearly shows their lack of interest in the project IMO. This Mr Greedy will never see a single dollar of my herp budget, and i am quite sure i am not alone!

Regards
Simon


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

Ihaveherps, that 'hybrid' is a Jag which was produced from 2 common or garden coastals. It is no more a hybrid than the albino carpets or Olives or other morphs that exist.


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## steve6610 (Feb 2, 2006)

> but the std old hets - well - $130 for a std hybrid shows where the std hybrid market sits atm - and the breeder says they were 'ripper hatchlings'



the reason these were sold 4 that price was because they weren't feeding and i also sold our pure coastals for the same price, and some of the reds were also rippers, some of us aren't in it for the money, 

check out my 4 sale add on here and you will see that i'm selling my unfeeding coastals for $130.00 each, 

and as for being rippers, i've only got 3 left out of 18, that might speak for it self, or maybe it was just because they were cheap, 

here's a pic of the one i'm keeping, 

cheers,
steve..........


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## ihaveherps (Feb 2, 2006)

So Boa, then that snake is a pic of an international Jag?


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes it's in America


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## Morelia_Hunter (Feb 2, 2006)

I would still like to know by what species concept we are going by? As taxonomy and our ideas of what a species constitutes changes the whole time. So maybe Ad can tell us what his idea of a pure species is? And what his idea of a hybrid is? And what his idea of a intergrade is? As far as I know Cape Yourks that are around are Hybrids? So would it be OK to cross these with Darwins as that is supposedly what happened with the First ones that were bred? Darwins were crossed with Cape Yourks? Why would anybody sell any of their first generation progeny in any case. I would be too interested in what their babies would look like. And it would be more profittable to sell possible hets in any case , as Simon Stone did this year (within a few days). All this thread is doing, is make us that have them realise that to keep them within their locality. It still wont stop me trying out new blood lines?


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## ad (Feb 2, 2006)

MH, if you are not sure of this info - please do a forum search - you will find it has been covered many times.
I am happy you have learnt something from this thread.


> All this thread is doing, is make us that have them realise that to keep them within their locality.


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## stiffler (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't have a problem with morphs been bred from locality stock. Hypo Bredli's, Hypo Coastals, Striped Coastals etc. I don't like the idea of breeding crosses. 
And by the way, I believe that Jags are bred from pure coastals, not crossed.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes that's what I said, everyone assumed that photo I posted was a hybrid but it's actually a pure coastal. It does show what's possible without offending the more sensitive :lol: 



stiffler said:


> And by the way, I believe that Jags are bred from pure coastals, not crossed.


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## NoOne (Feb 2, 2006)

> I have included a photo of a carpet morph, now totally disregarding the fact that it was crossed, hybridised or whatever how many people can say with their hand on their heart that they wouldn't have this animal in their collection ?



This is what i ment to say before but it went wrong.

What you said there to me says it's a hybrid.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

No, this is what I said, the whatever refers to whatever method that was used to create it. 
'fact that it was crossed, hybridised or whatever'


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## NoOne (Feb 2, 2006)

Ah k i get ya now, if it was a hybrid it would turn me off it no matter how it looked, if it were pure it would be great.
Hybrids just don't interest me.


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## Retic (Feb 2, 2006)

That's exactly it, you thought it was a hybrid and you didn't like it but now you know it's pure it is OK. That was sort of what I was trying to show. :lol:


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## Dicco (Feb 2, 2006)

I still think it just looks strange even though it's pure  , that's just me


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## NoOne (Feb 2, 2006)

I never said some hybrids didn't look nice, all i'm saying is that they lose all appeal if thats what they are, regardless of how they looked.


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## indicus (Feb 3, 2006)

The original, and best represented, Cape York Carpet line was not the result of breeding a Cape York animal with a Darwin animal......as the original breeder assured me :roll: . Some seasons later; due to a accident an Atherton Male was used once....To use Cape York Carpet as an example; is poor at best; due to the remarkable variation in specimens found through out the north....They could all be classed as natural occurring cross's to some degree...
The term "variegata" best sums it up; until further studies can determine the differences (if any, other then colour) between NQ area forms....
As for whether i agree with these crazy designer hybrids?....each to their own; it'll happen, and has happened; regardless what i think.
The unproven "hets"....thats a combination of good marketing; and good luck!!!


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## Reptile City (Feb 3, 2006)

Hi
In S.A. NPWL are collecting great amounts off information on breeders who DONT keep there reptiles pure!
I know they will be stopping imports of CROSSES & the like!
So the breeders looking for a market in S.A will be shocked when Import permits are not given for mungrels.
Its about ti :shock: me NPWL are getting more strict on the rules of keeping reptiles in Australia.

The Australian reptile market has grown massively & the governing departments are putting on many more staff.
I wonder when they will start confiscating Mungrels & handing out fines?
Will it be worth owning mungrels then?
I hope you all dont pay too much!
I dont mind the look off some mungrels but I wouldnt buy one!

I have also been told that there is no way Australia will be changing the laws on exotics either!
The risks off exotics to Australia far out ways the reasons to keep them as pets just because they look ok. :shock: 

Cheers,
Jason Lapins


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## stiffler (Feb 3, 2006)

In SA the NPWS only recognises Morelia Spilota (inc Diamond), Morelia Bredli and Morelia Spilota Imbricarta as seperate sub species of carpets. Therefore in SA you can cross Diamonds with Inlands with Jungles, with Coastals with Darwins no problems. Unless SA seperates the different sub species of Carpets they "cannot" stop anyone crossing or importing crosses.


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

Exactly right Stiffler. When they don't recognise them as different species how can they control their breeding ?


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## MannyM (Feb 3, 2006)

boa said:


>



Wow! That is fantastic.

Now while i'm not a herpitologist by any degree (i've only had my first reptiles for 6 months, and they're beardies at that), I really don't understand the close minded opinions of some of you. You're all acting like this snake was just created in a lab, out of a few cells and a beaker of liquid. It's ridiculous to say that you'd rather the 'original' herps, purely because of the 'history' that herp has. These snakes were still bred from other snakes, despite being human selected for breeding, so why are they really any different? They're still snakes, they've still got brains and temperaments, and they all originated from somewhere, so the bias of opinion that non-hybrids are better just because they have some sort of convoluted history is ridiculous.

Granted, i'm not too knowledgable on the subject, and if i'm wrong about the snakes being created from a test tube, then let me know, but as I understand it, these hybrids are born from a process of selective cross breeding, and I don't think that's a bad thing, especially if differentiating species aren't cross bred, causing deformities in the offspring. But if it's just about colouration, then anything but your opinion on how it looks is void.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

I think you will also find it is illegal to cross breed sub-specieces in QLD, even Diamond/coastals which has a natural intergadtion. They will also not be keen on anyone keeping crossed animals imported from another state.
This I totally agree with. I can see what will happen in the future when there are so many albino mongels around no one will be sure what genes are in their snakes. IMO this also has a moral issue, if they have no chance of ever breeding in the wild, why would any one want to create a new animal, that is natures job, not the job of a bunch of fools who are obviosly only doing it to try and line their pockects,(which IMO is going to back fire on them), and in their own perverted brains I think it is like a penis extension for them. But in realality they will lose what respect they had from any one with morals in this hobby.


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes it is indeed fantastic and a glimpse of what we can expect to see in the years to come. I agree with what you are saying but I will pick you up on one thing, you say 'but as I understand it, these hybrids are born from a process of selective cross breeding' the snake I posted is the result of coastal to coastal so no inter species cross breeding at all. Many morphs are the result of careful linebreeding and selective breeding. 
As far as I see it there is plenty of room for these and so called pure snakes in this hobby, I don't see there is any real need for abuse and name calling, it just comes down to a personal preference, I prefer both as it happens.
Well said anyway.  



MannyM said:


> Wow! That is fantastic.
> 
> Now while i'm not a herpitologist by any degree (i've only had my first reptiles for 6 months, and they're beardies at that), I really don't understand the close minded opinions of some of you. You're all acting like this snake was just created in a lab, out of a few cells and a beaker of liquid. It's ridiculous to say that you'd rather the 'original' herps, purely because of the 'history' that herp has. These snakes were still bred from other snakes, despite being human selected for breeding, so why are they really any different? They're still snakes, they've still got brains and temperaments, and they all originated from somewhere, so the bias of opinion that non-hybrids are better just because they have some sort of convoluted history is ridiculous.
> 
> Granted, i'm not too knowledgable on the subject, and if i'm wrong about the snakes being created from a test tube, then let me know, but as I understand it, these hybrids are born from a process of selective cross breeding, and I don't think that's a bad thing, especially if differentiating species aren't cross bred, causing deformities in the offspring. But if it's just about colouration, then anything but your opinion on how it looks is void.


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## Hickson (Feb 3, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> I can see what will happen in the future when there are so many albino mongels around no one will be sure what genes are in their snakes.



I agree with Rob on this point, it would be one of my concerns. Also hybrids that look normal for one of the species being sold as purebred.

One of the other concerns is that the taxonomy changes every few years - one moment Bredl's is a subspecies of _M.spilota_, the next moment it's a separate species altogether.

Can anyone tell me with certainty (ie personal experience) - is a _bredli _x _variegata _hybrid fertile?



TrueBlue said:


> But in realality they will lose what respect they had from any one with morals in this hobby.



Unfortunately, there are still a great many people in this hobby without any morals whatsoever. 



Hix

*NOTE*: The last sentence was a statement of fact and was not an attack directed at anyone in particular. If you felt it hit close to home, that's your problem.


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## mistymtn (Feb 3, 2006)

Hi Boa, 
The picture is a nice looking snake, I'm glad it is a morph & not a hybrid. I would be happy to have it in my collection. the problem i see is if someone produced a snake like that as a hybrid & sold it to people as a morph I would be very upset, but it is very hard to know if it is or not. Therefore I would only buy a morph of a breeder I know & trust.
I have been in herps a very short time, so my comment might not mean much to many people. I have been involved in Pure breed dogs for a number of years & see similar situations. To me a hybrid is a crossbreed mongrel & a get rich quick scheme. Just the same as all the designer dogs you see like labradoodles, spoodles etc. Advertised for big money, even more than purebreeds which is ridiculous. I have seen would crossbreeds that can look like the real thing & many people would not know the difference & are likely to get ripped off. That is why I would only buy something like this off someone I know & trust

Morphs, I think are wonderful & are the future for herps. At the same time there is plenty of room for the normal types, but most people do look for the ones with the patterns or markings they like. Which is part of selective breeding.JMO 
Line breeding & selective breeding has been going on for many years in most hobbies that involve breeding animals & will continue. it is the the only way to get more consistant result time & time again. Out crossing you never know what you will end up with.
but I think you need to know & trust who you are buying from  
This is just my 2 cents worth, which isn't very much :roll:


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## Sdaji (Feb 3, 2006)

Hix said:


> Can anyone tell me with certainty (ie personal experience) - is a _bredli _x _variegata _hybrid fertile?



Fertile? yes.

Hybrid? yes.

Interspecific hybrid? I'd say no, but others would disagree. This depends on which side of the taxonomic fence you're on.


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## Hickson (Feb 3, 2006)

Ta.



Hix


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## Sdaji (Feb 3, 2006)

There are many bredli hybrids going around, some sold as bredli, some sold as coastals, and probably some being sold as Darwins. I know one person who had a clutch of hatchlings as well as both parents confiscated by the department because he hybridised a bredli with a 'carpet' (he didn't know what type it was, but it certainly wasn't bredli, or licensed as such). Incidentally, this was a well known herp who used to do public shows and has been on TV programs showing reptiles. He believed both parents were males.

I also know of a fair few people who own bredli hybrids. Unfortunately, all the hybrid lovers are going to produce them, they'll say there's nothing wrong with it, those wanting pure animals will be upset and blame the hybridisers, the debate will continue for years until finally everyone will realise there's no hope and give up on trying to have anything guaranteed pure. Have a look at USA, they're already there. It's very sad, but there will be little pure stuff available in Australia in the not too distant future. We have the advantage of still having some known lines, and the knowledge of their importance (USA started hybridising earlier) but unfortunately, very few people care and to most "QLD" or "NT" etc are locations. People now blame a lack of knowledge for the almost complete loss of captive Children's python data, but are still content to say they have "WA" this or "QLD" that. Three subspecies of Children's pythons (maculosa, childreni and stimsoni) occur in QLD, two in NT, three in WA... do state lablels really help? How much good will they be down the line when we realise we have to split more species up? People aren't interested in keeping track of a specific location, such as a town, swamp or patch of forest, which is what is really needed. Many people have tried hard to obtain and breed specific location animals, but before too long, these efforts will be completely redundant. I suppose it will come down to captive reptiles being novelty pets and those interested in seeing natural animals will have to see them in the wild.


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## munkee (Feb 3, 2006)

My my a good fun thread!!! My Thoughts are these-
Morphs will appear in Australia as people who want them are looking for or trying to breed them themselves. I think that morphs wont nessesarily be worth the same money over here due to supply and demand. There is still ongoing taxonomic classification of snakes and it is difficult to tell already the 'purity' of animals (childreni subspecies a good example). People have their preferences and I would look at morphs only if I knew the breeder or he had a very good reputation. 
I have no idea about the government legislation with regards to hybrids, an the like.
But the best thought is live and let live. Morphers will breed morphs and purists will breed pure. Both will have their following in the herp world, I am curious as to the morphs that may come along. I have several species to buy and hopefully breed yet. So I am sitting on the fence and enjoying the sights. Much enjoyment from the thread so far. Keep it up all..................


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

Boa,- I have no problem with line breeding for morphs, as long as it stays within in the same sub-speices, its the crossing of those that I dont like. Look at half the anteresia' s down south, know one nows whats what half the time because of this.
I have hypos that produce the odd animal that has very simular traits to the jag you posted, in a season or two you will see hypos being produced in oz that look as jag as any over seas, wait and see.


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## munkee (Feb 3, 2006)

Sadji you beat me to it!!!!!


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## Sdaji (Feb 3, 2006)

munkee said:


> Sadji you beat me to it!!!!!



I agree with you, except that while hybridisers hybridise and purists attempt to breed pure, the waters will be muddied and no one will know what's what. There will be very few people around with pure animals, just a few very keen people who manage to keep a very few pure lines going. I'll do it with Water Pythons of course and will never polute my lines, I'm sure others will do it with their own favourites, but it will very soon get to the stage where anyone new to the game won't be able to get their hands on a pure line of their own favourite species. Soon enough, people will give up.


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## olivehydra (Feb 3, 2006)

Dont want to get too deep and meaningful, as I tend to drown in deep water :wink: but,.... someone, (I think TB) mentioned mother nature and allowing it to progress without human help.
I believe humans are part of "mother nature" and therefore shouldnt our actions also be considered part of nature? To seperate ourselves from our environment is something that happens all too often. I think a hybrid snake is still a snake, its not quite "Blade Runner" yet, where we have artificial vs real? Perhaps it is just a "class" issue, in which pure animals are assigned more value because their folks came from "old money"?


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

It will always happen but we need honest breeders that are prepared to tell buyers excatly what they are buying. So TB do you have any of these hypos available ?


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

There are still quite a number of us die hard locality specific breeders out there sdaji, hell I even try to keep my jungles local specific wereas alot these days are crossing them with athertons.
With Pilbarapythons on a legal mission in WA, garranteed local specific animals are the order of the day, and belive me they have some stunners I should know as a number are here on a breeding program. 
They are going out of their way to keep things local and this to me in IMO is the whole basis of the reason we keep reptiles, if an environmental disarster or the likes were to happen in an area at least we may have a chance of re-introducing the animals back into their habitat once every thing was safe to do so.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

Boa,-will have in the next season or three, as you know line breeding takes a long time.


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

Reintroduction by private keepers would never happen, it's nice to think it could but I don't think it would ever be allowed.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

Its been done in oz before with a number of mamals and if the need was ever there and the animals fitted the correct criteria ie disease free etc Im sure that it would be possible with reptiles as well.


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

Wouldn't they have to come from accredited breeders or zoos parks etc ? Even then there is no proof the animals are pure enough to release to restock. I would like to think it was possible.


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## Rennie (Feb 3, 2006)

Although I would still like to SEE some of the morphs that can be produced by crossing I won't buy any (my first thought was red bredli's X white/yellow albino's = possibly pink snakes which may look interesting but are they worth it?) , after reading some other opinions I also hope that it doesn't go too far here and pure locality strains are still available (preferably even more common than the crosses) unlike in america.
Can I change my vote? LOL


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## URS (Feb 3, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Boa,- I have no problem with line breeding for morphs, as long as it stays within in the same sub-speices, its the crossing of those that I dont like. Look at half the anteresia' s down south, know one nows whats what half the time because of this.
> I have hypos that produce the odd animal that has very simular traits to the jag you posted, in a season or two you will see hypos being produced in oz that look as jag as any over seas, wait and see.



Rob, 

With the amount of talk and gossip regarding Jags that I keeping hearing and every one else doe's. I think that you will find that there is all ready about 10 of the US one's here in Aus!

But this is only what the rumor mill is saying around Aus.

Regards Tim


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

I do not find that a surprise at all unfortunatly Tim, in fact I would of thought there would of been more than that down south in exotic heaven. The only thing I can say is none of those animals will ever be here. Im so close to producing some mind boggling hypos that even if the chance arsose to use one of them I honestly wouldnt want to taint my beautiful strain.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Feb 3, 2006)

With the distribution of carpets over australia it is highly unlikely that animals will be reintroduced to the wild. Talk about polluting a gene pool.


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

Very interesting how the voting is going, 62% obviously in favour of hybrids (not morphs) and are prepared to pay a good price for them.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

MH, Not if they are pure and their geograhpical origins are known, by crossing sub-speices as you bost about doing you are deliberatly polluting gene pools. :shock:


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## stiffler (Feb 3, 2006)

Ok True Blue, less talk more pics. :twisted: Any chance of seeing how these Jags/Hypos of yours are looking at the moment?


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## soulweaver (Feb 3, 2006)

IMO regardless of what the majority want its going to happen. I remember reading a article from the U.S that was similar to this thread, saying how ppl wanted to keep snakes 'pure' and not change the appearance of traits by crossing and whatever you want to call it, now look at the states..........

seems with most things in life we all want to become americanized, T.V, video games clothes, whatever......although we say we are different we are Australian, no matter how hard we fight things will change.........i think the question is how long before we have designer carpets and weird morphs?? how long before the albino olives and darwins are crossed with 'pure' species to create different types of albinos?

i personally like what we have, and am happy with the selection we have..........but if some of us on here plan to be breeders later in life, should your buisness plan include designer carpets?

like someone already said to a point they are already here, stripey coastals is just the tip of the iceberg.

have no idea if this post makes sense, but it does in my head


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

stiffy,- they wont let me post any more, I have to work out ho to delete previous pics, have tried a couple of times but beats the hell out of me, Im not tecnologically advanced like most of you lot, I only know how to breed snakes and frolic.


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## stiffler (Feb 3, 2006)

ah....frolicking....mmmm


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## keelow (Feb 3, 2006)

i'd pay good money for a jet black Olive python.

whats it called, opposite of albino?


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

Hypermelanistic.


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## Sdaji (Feb 3, 2006)

olivehydra said:


> Dont want to get too deep and meaningful, as I tend to drown in deep water :wink: but,.... someone, (I think TB) mentioned mother nature and allowing it to progress without human help.
> I believe humans are part of "mother nature" and therefore shouldnt our actions also be considered part of nature? To seperate ourselves from our environment is something that happens all too often. I think a hybrid snake is still a snake, its not quite "Blade Runner" yet, where we have artificial vs real? Perhaps it is just a "class" issue, in which pure animals are assigned more value because their folks came from "old money"?



You put forward a perfectly valid argument, we are just another species, many species interact with each other, affecting evolution in all sorts of ways. I have no way of discrediting the argument, however, it doesn't sit too well with most people, because if you accept it, you accept that there is nothing wrong with humans polluting the planet, detonating nuclear bombs, hunting species to extinction etc etc etc. Perhaps it would be better if we tried not to jump in and cause too many changes. I can't give you a reason why, it isn't necessarily logical, it is sentimental. Text can come across strangely, so I'll point out that I'm not being at all facetious in this post.


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## Gabe (Feb 3, 2006)

I thought it was just melanistic?


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## Reptilia (Feb 3, 2006)

I dont know much but i thought Hyper melanistic was increased black pigment and that amelanistic was complete black pigement. Hypo melanistic is obviously reduced black pigement. Can someone please verify this?.

Their is no opposite of an albino (Is their?). That would mean it would be pure black with red eyes, wouldnt it?. As you can see, i'm unsure...

leucistic is white with black eyes. (Not an albino).

They certainly do need a snake slang thread. Please correct my mistakes.

Thanks. Lance.


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## Gabe (Feb 3, 2006)

Reptilia said:


> I dont know much but i thought Hyper melanistic was increased black pigment and that amelanistic was complete black pigement.



Amelanistics have no melanin



Reptilia said:


> leucistic is white with black eyes. (Not an albino).



There are also blue eyed leucistics about - very nice :wink:


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## Sdaji (Feb 3, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> There are still quite a number of us die hard locality specific breeders out there sdaji, hell I even try to keep my jungles local specific wereas alot these days are crossing them with athertons.
> With Pilbarapythons on a legal mission in WA, garranteed local specific animals are the order of the day, and belive me they have some stunners I should know as a number are here on a breeding program.
> They are going out of their way to keep things local and this to me in IMO is the whole basis of the reason we keep reptiles, if an environmental disarster or the likes were to happen in an area at least we may have a chance of re-introducing the animals back into their habitat once every thing was safe to do so.



Treasure whatever pure lines you have and get all that you can aside safely now, while you still can. There will be a few people like yourself with a few pure lines, but people like yourself will become rare, most pure lines will be lost and few people will care. I don't think captive reptiles are likely to be used for repopulation attempts in Australia, and almost certainly never from private collections. The mammal reintroductions are almost always dismal failures and done mostly as publicity stunts. Yes, there are some exceptions. I think the main value in having location pure lines in captivity is sentimental, just like morphs. They are of more value for studies on reproductive patterns etc, as they are relevant to a known population, but very few private keepers bother to record the relevant data, let alone publish it.

One of these days I might have to get some animals from you


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

He speaks :lol: Hyper : Above, exceeding, higher, more than, abnormally increased. 
I take it to be that melanistic means it is black, hypermelanistic means it is abnormally black. So it is even more black :lol: 



Gabe said:


> I thought it was just melanistic?


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## Reptilia (Feb 3, 2006)

Thanks gabe so would that mean 'melanistic' is all black?

Cheers. Lance.


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## Gabe (Feb 3, 2006)

boa said:


> He speaks :lol: Hyper : Above, exceeding, higher, more than, abnormally increased.
> I take it to be that melanistic means it is black, hypermelanistic means it is abnormally black. So it is even more black :lol:



That's it boa :lol:. Just like hypos are reduced in black, meaning that they can still have some of black on them, hypers have increased black, though not completely black.

Well that's how i see it anyway 



Reptilia said:


> Thanks gabe so would that mean 'melanistic' is all black?



Have you seen the pic of the melanistic Darwin? Has anyone got it handy?


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## Gabe (Feb 3, 2006)

Just found it


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

amelainistic = albino
melainistic = all black, (except ventral)
hypomelainistic = greatly reduced black
Hypermelainistic = ? probally some name an american herper came up with to sell melainistic animals.?
Sdaji, virtually all my animals are local pure from, stimmies to bhps, to hypo coastals, to jungles etc, I strive to keep them that way and that is why its rare for me to acqurie an animal off any one these days, with only a very small number of exceptions that I trust enough to know that their line originates from where they say it does.


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## moosenoose (Feb 3, 2006)

ad said:


> I would rather one of these - and it is a pure locale animal.



I still think a well presented black and white jungle like that Ad is unbeatable! That is gorgeous! 

I think the demand for designer animals will always be on the increase, and it's really a case of naming your price and see what comes of it. It's human nature for people to desire owning something that is just that little bit different. From a personal point of view, I love the fact that there are purists out there still trying to keep the bloodlines of what has evolved naturally, true. However on saying that, it'd only be the cost of buying something that is an albino, or a spectacular hybrid, that is keeping a lid on myself personally owning one! (oh, and my wife!! ) and why not...even one of those over-priced green tree thingy pythons hehe 

- am I fence sitting? :lol:


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## Sdaji (Feb 3, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> amelainistic = albino
> melainistic = all black, (except ventral)
> hypomelainistic = greatly reduced black
> Hypermelainistic = ? probally some name an american herper came up with to sell melainistic animals.?
> Sdaji, virtually all my animals are local pure from, stimmies to bhps, to hypo coastals, to jungles etc, I strive to keep them that way and that is why its rare for me to acqurie an animal off any one these days, with only a very small number of exceptions that I trust enough to know that their line originates from where they say it does.



Since when don't melanistic animals have black ventrals?

Cool stuff with the pure lines. What locality are your Black Headed Pythons from? I thought you were hybridising the bumblebee one. I've heard of virtually no locality specific Black Headeds from NT or QLD. Everyone seems to think that "NT" and "QLD" are locations. Where are your hypo east QLD carpets from?


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

Sdaji, most melainistic pythons if not all, all that I have seen any way, are not black ventrally but white or whiteish grey.
Their south east qld hypos, Charters towers line bhps, the bumble bee will only be put over WA bhps from the same imediate region as he came from, I was tempted to put it over a qld this season but restrained myself,( now thats passion for keeping them pure),


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

I must admit I was thinking the same thing. Where does it say they have anything other than black ventrals and why would that be ? 



Sdaji said:


> Since when don't melanistic animals have black ventrals?
> 
> quote]


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## Dicco (Feb 3, 2006)

Rob, you wouldn't happen to know the reigon from SEQ your hypo line originates from?


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## Retic (Feb 3, 2006)

There are supposed to be quite a few hypo coastals around the Sunshine Coast area


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## Sdaji (Feb 3, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Sdaji, most melainistic pythons if not all, all that I have seen any way, are not black ventrally but white or whiteish grey.
> Their south east qld hypos, Charters towers line bhps, the bumble bee will only be put over WA bhps from the same imediate region as he came from, I was tempted to put it over a qld this season but restrained myself,( now thats passion for keeping them pure),



That just means they're not 'true' melanistics *shrug*
I'm not particularly fussed, if I want a black snake, I'll get a black snake from a species which is supposed to be black  Mmmm, Notechis 

Charters Towers? Great stuff! An actual location, not just a state! 

Glad to hear the bumblebee will be kept pure. One of these days I might have to get some. Hopefully a few years down the track if and when they're available, I might be able to afford them!


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## TrueBlue (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes, luckly for me Ive been in the hooby here long enough to know people that collected before the laws changed in the mid 80s, I managed a reptile dispay for one years a go, all the lines of normal carpets that I used to breed came thru this bloke, the hypos that I still breed are from the same animals. They were originally collected from the sunshine coast.


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## ad (Feb 3, 2006)

I like this girl from TrueBlues collection.
Pure locale and pretty hot looking animal.


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## basketcase (Feb 3, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> I can see what will happen in the future when there are so many albino mongels around no one will be sure what genes are in their snakes. IMO this also has a moral issue, if they have no chance of ever breeding in the wild, why would any one want to create a new animal, that is natures job, not the job of a bunch of fools who are obviosly only doing it to try and line their pockects,(which IMO is going to back fire on them), and in their own perverted brains I think it is like a penis extension for them. But in realality they will lose what respect they had from any one with morals in this hobby.



best. post. ever.

if you weren't a man, i'd kiss you.


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## congo_python (Feb 3, 2006)

IMO i would only buy pure locality morphs if it could be verified and i would not go any where near hybrid morphs as they do not represent a true species to me.

Congo


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## Reptile City (Feb 4, 2006)

*RE : Designer Morphs*

NPWL has approved the release of S.A. Murray Darlings on an propery that used to have them there before land clearing, feral cats & fires wiped them out.
She (Name kept private as she dosent want to much attention) has released over 100 juvs.
The S.A herpotolegy group can back me up!
So, Captive bred S.A. Murray Darlings has been approved & released to the wild.
She has also found sheddings & python poo in the same area 1 year later.
If the Murray darlings are pure off locality, whats the problem?

Jason Lapins


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## Hickson (Feb 4, 2006)

Hypermelanistic means increased black
Melanistic means an all-black animal.

The snake in the photo posted by Gabe is, therefore, a hypermelanistic animal.



olivehydra said:


> I believe humans are part of "mother nature" and therefore shouldnt our actions also be considered part of nature? To seperate ourselves from our environment is something that happens all too often.



Unfortunately, our actions cannot be considered 'natural' any longer.

For millions of years man and his antecedents have been an integral part of the environment. We have co-existed and interacted with other species in what is termed the "balance of nature". But we have upset the balance in our favour, so much so that we not only endanger other species and ecosystems, but we place ourselves at risk.



Sdaji said:


> because if you accept it, you accept that there is nothing wrong with humans polluting the planet, detonating nuclear bombs, hunting species to extinction etc etc etc.



Well said, and I'd add to that rampant global deforestation, whale hunting, bullfighting, canetoad introductions and the destruction of the protective Ozone layer. Hell, I can't even eat fish I catch in Sydney Harbour any more!


In regards to reintroductions:


boa said:


> Wouldn't they have to come from accredited breeders or zoos parks etc ? Even then there is no proof the animals are pure enough to release to restock. I would like to think it was possible.



Most likely the animals would conme from accredited breeders and zoo/parks etc., not the average hobbyist. And many zoos already have provenance stock for some species (I believe the majority of the animals at the Alice Springs Desert Park are provenance).

Even if a population was wiped out in an area, and there was no guaranteed provenance stock from that region, chances are authorities would relocate some wild animals from a nearby location. The genetic profile might be different, but it would be better than an unknown profile that might contain undesirable traits. That's assuming the authorities considered it worthwhile to repopulate the area.



Hix


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## olivehydra (Feb 4, 2006)

Hix said:


> olivehydra said:
> 
> 
> > I believe humans are part of "mother nature" and therefore shouldnt our actions also be considered part of nature? To seperate ourselves from our environment is something that happens all too often.
> ...



I think what I was alluding to here has been misinterpreted. I still however disagree with what you say but agree with your dislike of our actions. To discuss this matter further would best suit another forum such as chit chat :wink:


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