# The Importance of Quarantine - New Outbreak of 'Sunshine Virus'



## The Reptile Outlet (May 24, 2012)

I've been on the bandwagon quite a bit lately, mainly on facebook, about the importance of applying strict quarantine proceedures. The reason for this is that it was brought to my attention a month or so ago that there was a potential outbreak of something 'nasty' in a collection up the coast. 
I've been monitoring this very closely and there will be an article in our July issue covering some of the nasty viruses that we need to be on the watch for. Here's a direct quote from my facebook page from Dr Shane Simpson, from Karingal Vet Hospital regarding this situation. 


[h=6]I have been asked to comment by a few people who are very concerned about what is happening in SE QLD at the moment. For those of you who do not know who I am check out www.facebook.com/TheReptileDoctor.

I have no agenda with any of my comments other than to give you all some advice and clear up a couple of incorrect comments that have been made about viral infections in snakes and about the current situation.
I was asked for my advice by some people affected by the current issue in SE QLD and have been involved in the testing of affected animals. In saying that I am not at liberty to divulge the results of the testing due to confidentiality so all my comments are "in general".

Time to bring some facts and science to the conversation...
1. OPMV is now known correctly as Ferlavirus
2. Ferlavirus IS NOT what is occurring SE QLD. Significant numbers of snakes throughout Australia have been tested for Ferlavirus at Murdoch Uni in Perth using several testing methods and NO snake has ever tested positive. So get OPMV/Ferlavirus out of your heads with respect to this subject!!!
3. The virus we are looking at is called Sunshine Virus. It causes similar symptoms to Ferlavirus and is of a similar type of virus but is a completely new virus.
4. Sunshine virus appears to be spread by direct contact and in aerosols.
5. Ferlavirus has not been found in wild snakes to my knowledge. It is therefore not endemic anywhere in this country. 
6. There is no governing body in the Herp sector to control movement of animals. It ASTOUNDS me the ease at which animals are moved between keepers both locally and interstate with almost no regard for quarantine or postive identification of animals (eg. with a microchip). You all put great faith in each other as to the animals you have bought online etc are actually the animals that you paid for and are disease free. This is a whole other topic...

So what to do now...

If you have had any contact AT ALL with what you think may have been an infected animal or collection then you must go into complete lock down. No animals into your collection or animals out. No selling animals even if they appear healthy. No snake parties where you go round and visit your mates and eberyone brings their animals. Just because they are not showing symptoms does not mean they are not infected. It appears the viruses have a 6 to at least 10 week incubation period but it may be longer as we simply do not know.

Quarantine is a must and YOU ALL SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THIS ANYWAY. Any new animals that EVER come into your collections should be kept competely separate from all others for a minimum of 3-6 months and longer if you are really good. That means separate room, separate equipment, handling your other animals first and then any new arrivals.

If you suspect you have a snake that is infected then it should be isolated/quarantined. Testing is available and you can contact me for the process and costs involved.

Everyone who owns snakes should know about this virus. It is a "collection killer" and quite frankly all of you need to take a deep breath, calm down and work together. Finger pointing and throwing blame around is not going to achieve anything.

I have been asked by the publishers of Scales and Tails magazine to write an article about viruses in snakes in Australia. This will be coming out in the July issue and will hopefully provide you with all the further information you need.[/h]


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 24, 2012)

Excellent news Joy (the article that is!). I've been associated with Tim Hyndman in Perth on & off over the past 6-8 years, and the last time we communicated he did indicate that OPMV (now Ferlavirus it seems... maybe after Fer de lance - the species in which it was first detected if I recall) hadn't shown up in any of the samples he has assayed.

The Sunshine virus sounds very interesting indeed, and I'm very interested to know if there's a conclusive test for it, which will make management a lot easier.

This is why I'm very opposed to breeding loans etc - no reasonable quarantine is possible.

Good work S&T.

Jamie


----------



## Ramsayi (May 24, 2012)

Begs the question of where it has originated from if it wasn't already endemic to this country.Keepers jumping all over new morphs that appeared out of nowhere are as much to blame as the ones responsible for bringing them in in the first place.


----------



## abnrmal91 (May 24, 2012)

Look forward to reading the article when it arrives on time as usual thanks.

Cheers Daniel


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 24, 2012)

If I recall (and his work has no doubt progressed since we last spoke) Tim was doing some work with samples from many sources, to try and find out if the virus could indeed be endemic to this country. Because I haven't been interested in acquistions at all in the last few years, I've taken my eyes off this one. Sounds like there's a bit more known now...

Jamie


----------



## Waterrat (May 24, 2012)

Yes Ramsay, lets find those responsible, expose them, prosecute them or assassinate them on the spot. It's it what Shane Simpson suggested?


----------



## Ramsayi (May 24, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Yes Ramsay, lets find those responsible, expose them, prosecute them or assassinate them on the spot. It's it what Shane Simpson suggested?



Watarat,where do you come up with this stuff? He stated that it seems it isn't endemic to this country so I merely put an observation forward.


----------



## The Reptile Outlet (May 24, 2012)

Kam, from what Shane says, yes it is. 
Jamie, It was Tim who first recognised and named it 'Sunshine Virus' I believe and yes they've been testing animals recently. 
The point of this post isn't to panic anyone. It's just to hopefully help people to become more vigilant with practising strict quarantine....... The buck stops with us and it's better to be safe than sorry.
We did a great article on quarantine back in *Issue 9 – Page 09* *Quarantine – just how important is it? - Timely advice for all herp keepers*


----------



## ozziepythons (May 24, 2012)

So glad my collection is locked from pythons coming into it and has been for a while, couldn't stand wondering if something I had just freighted from interstate was infected and going to cripple my collection. Fact is the absolute vast majority of reptile keepers do not function at the laboratory level with sterile tools and quarantine procedures, hell there are plenty of wildlife parks and zoos that don't either! There are so many reptiles daily being traded from dirty collections that you have to really be a thinker to set yourself apart, think through what it is you really wish to keep and from which trusted source you obtain further purchases. Fact is you just have to look at the sale forums and websites to see they are loaded with advertised impulse bought snakes being offered to the next impulse driven buyer, which sadly is the vector for transmission of the retroviruses we are seeing disperse throughout the nation.


----------



## The Reptile Outlet (May 24, 2012)

What really concerns me is the number of new people to the hobby who have not been quarantining their animals and who don't seem to know about the nasty viruses out there, also the fact that quite a number of older keepers have become quite complacent in recent years. It's a wake up call for us all.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 24, 2012)

Basically puts the prospect of buying snakes from pet shops in the bin doesn't it...? Relatively large numbers of animals passing through these commercial bottlenecks in a short period of time. It's a no-brainer really.

Jamie


----------



## wokka (May 24, 2012)

ozziepythons said:


> So glad my collection is locked from pythons coming into it and has been for a while, couldn't stand wondering if something I had just freighted from interstate was infected and going to cripple my collection. Fact is the absolute vast majority of reptile keepers do not function at the laboratory level with sterile tools and quarantine procedures, hell there are plenty of wildlife parks and zoos that don't either! There are so many reptiles daily being traded from dirty collections that you have to really be a thinker to set yourself apart, think through what it is you really wish to keep and from which trusted source you obtain further purchases. Fact is you just have to look at the sale forums and websites to see they are loaded with advertised impulse bought snakes being offered to the next impulse driven buyer, which sadly is the vector for transmission of the retroviruses we are seeing disperse throughout the nation.


Alarmist!
The evidence is that despite the high level of snake movements in this country and the lack of labratory style keeping facilities captive snakes in Australia are generally healthy. Any living creature has a chance of getting sick . lets not go overboard!



Ramsayi said:


> Begs the question of where it has originated from if it wasn't already endemic to this country.Keepers jumping all over new morphs that appeared out of nowhere are as much to blame as the ones responsible for bringing them in in the first place.


I though the post said that OPMV is not endemic to this country and that there had been no confirmed cases of OPMV ( despite all the past histeria)
There is still little known about the status of Sunshine virus .


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 24, 2012)

wokka said:


> Alarmist!
> The evidence is that despite the high level of snake movements in this country and the lack of labratory style keeping facilities captive snakes in Australia are generally healthy. Any iving creature has a chance of getting sick . lets not go overboard!



There is some truth to this too, as Warwick suggests. The pet snake populations in the US and Europe haven't gone extinct by any means in the past 20 or 30 years that these pathogens have been known about.

I'll be very interested to read the article when it comes out. I also think that sometimes we just may not have been aware of, or known what to look for, in past decades. I do recall die-offs since my own consciousness began in the late 60s & early 70s, that were just attributed to the "that's life" syndrome. We now have hugely more sophisticated methods of finding pathogen culprits than we did decades ago, so we may be looking at something that's been around forever with new sets of eyes.

Not that complacency is acceptable though...
 
Jamie


----------



## Helikaon (May 24, 2012)

Does anyone know if there has been any published journal articles as of present on the 'sunshine virus'

i take that back just found one on pub med


----------



## sigridshurte (May 24, 2012)

Time to put the foot down I think.
why do all these disease have such a long presentation periods weeks/months/years(so I hear), is it a long incubation period for the virus's, or are the virus's always there and they just emerge when the snake is unwell with decrease immunity ?. There must be some way to establish if a snake is unwell prior to it just dropping dead one day

Or u sudden onset of an seemingly normal and healthy snake

*or a sudden onset of I'll illness or symptoms in a seemingly normal and healthy snake.


----------



## Kareeves (May 24, 2012)

omg every one run for the hills


----------



## Jay84 (May 24, 2012)

Ramsayi, how did you come to the conclusion it has been bought in? Or due to morphs? 

Why is everything always blamed on morphs and turned into a JAG war?

Viruses start from somewhere, maybe overseas, maybe in our own backyard.


----------



## stimigex (May 24, 2012)

Joy from S & T said:


> What really concerns me is the number of new people to the hobby who have not been quarantining their animals and who don't seem to know about the nasty viruses out there, also the fact that quite a number of older keepers have become quite complacent in recent years. It's a wake up call for us all.



This is a major problem indeed, When the subject is mentioned to these types of keepers it is met with 
contempt in a lot of cases.
This is where reptile societies/clubs should take a large role in educating members/people on correct
practice of quarantine. Discouraging the bringing of animals to meetings for "play times", show offs would be a good start!


----------



## Vixen (May 24, 2012)

I think all reptile expo's need to have a good think about where they stand on issues like this as well and what precautions they need to take if they indeed still want to run them.

It's reason I stopped being involved in the Gladstone expo - I held a stall one year, never again have I been back with my reptiles or even to have a look. Snakes were being taken out of their enclosures and walked around the complex, fresh shed skins were on display and ended up everywhere including on my table - not to mention all the grabby hands (kids and adults alike) who were previously handling other people's snakes, not washing their hands, then touching anything and everything!

Don't get me wrong I think it's a good thing they are trying to do, but that just put me completely off as there was no regard for quarantine matters AT ALL.


----------



## Snowman (May 24, 2012)

Sounds like reptile expo's arent a great place to be...


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 24, 2012)

At the original Castle Hill Expos, run by Anthony Stimson, exhibitors had to pay a surcharge to purchase their brand new exhibit enclosures, so they were their property to take home after the first use that day - no placing other animals from unknown sources at any time later. It's really the only way to go, but the prospect of aerosol infection is still there.

Jamie


----------



## CrystalMoon (May 24, 2012)

I dont think a lot of new comers quite "get" how important quarantine is, in all honesty I didn't until i received a mite infested snake. Luckily I had measures in place and the problem was contained to only that one snake. My point is, that experience gave me a wake up and even though I didnt think I was too bad, now I have improved and I can not stress loudly enough to all the other new comers how important it is to quarantine any new reptiles and to keep hygiene first and foremost on your mind when going betwixt old reptiles and your new reptiles. I dont even allow curious onlookers to touch/handle my snakes(I dont know what they've handled) I truly hope this outbreak doesnt spread like wild fire


----------



## yommy (May 24, 2012)

Hygiene for collections and set protocols for new animals should be every keepers 1st priority.

Out of curiousity where does the name "Sunshine" originate for this new virus? Is it because it was 1st diagnosed in the sunshine state. I guess the answers will be in the next S&T issue, should be a must read for every keeper.


----------



## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 24, 2012)

I visited Shane this morning as he looks after my collection and any issues that might arise in it from time to time. From what can be ascertained so far this disease is an Australian disease. It presents itself in the form of an RI with animals deteriorating from there, up to the point of their demise from secondary issues. The viral incubation period seems to be 6-8 weeks.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 24, 2012)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I visited Shane this morning as he looks after my collection and any issues that might arise in it from time to time. From what can be ascertained so far this disease is an Australian disease. It presents itself in the form of an RI with animals deteriorating from there, up to the point of their demise from secondary issues. The viral incubation period seems to be 6-8 weeks.



I seem to recall that in my last communication with Tim H. he certainly didn't rule out the possibility of the viral disorder we see here in Oz being of local origin, since none of the samples he worked with at Murdoch came up as OPMV. So it may be that this disease has been with us all the time and just manifests itself occasionally... but what's the trigger???

Jamie


----------



## jahan (May 24, 2012)

Are there any signs of this virus in wild populations?


----------



## Wild~Touch (May 24, 2012)

Could the virus be transferred through mites, mosquitoes or common flies 

or perhaps it's through the food items being offered,ie, rodents or birds.

Flies and mosquitoes hang around all of the above.

Or maybe the water source ? Not many keepers offer pure bottled spring water.

Could it be the way we keep our animals - mostly in one heated room all breathing the same air ?

A solution to the problem would be wonderful because as it stands we will all be afraid of enjoying our animals as we used to.

No visiting expos, no buying new animals, not visiting friends with snakes and the list goes on.


----------



## wokka (May 24, 2012)

jahan said:


> Are there any signs of this virus in wild populations?



With most diseases the answer is no as you dont find what you dont look for. Once a wild animal dies it soon joins the circle of life so there is nothing left to test.
and then there is always a cost associated with testing!


----------



## The Reptile Outlet (May 24, 2012)

Regarding Expos/Festivals....... quarantine issues have always been uppermost in our mind for our Festival which is why no exhibitors are permitted to take their animals out of the enclosures. Animals are on display, but locked firmly away from any 'hands on' contact with the general public. Common sense would tell people to shower when they go home before going anywhere near any other reptiles, the same as you would if you visited a zoo or another reptile keeper's home.
The only animals out of enclosures at our festival are those being handled by a licensed demonstrator.
This year I think we might put in place a 'quarantine' table or such with handouts on suggested quarantine proceedures ...... just a thought for further education. We'll probably have this at the end of the Scales & Tails table..... hmmmmm just thinking this through, we'll make sure we have it in place for the Gold Coast Expo and Reptecon as well.


----------



## Splitmore (May 24, 2012)

Wokka has summed it up well, there's no need for mass panic or hysterial. Remember when the three letters, I B D was on everyones lips? Every captive and wild snake was going to be wiped out within a few years if believed everything you read. OPMV was the next one, again everyone pointing the finger at smuggled animals and even one zoological facility for unleashing it on the reptile keeping community here in Australia. Again I've hardly heard it mentioned the last few years. These things all follow the same course, some new and nasty virus is identified, a paper is published in some veterinary magazine and all of a sudden every vet that doesn't know the first thing about reptiles is diagnosing the slightest off sounding hiss as IBD, OPMV etc.
Yes there's some nasties out there but how, and how easily they are transmitted is very much misunderstood. Lets face it, I'm guessing at less than 1% of keepers would practice any worthwhile form of quarrantine, so if these viruses were as rampant as some believe then reptile keeping all over the world would of been doomed long ago.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 24, 2012)

Vixen said:


> I think all reptile expo's need to have a good think about where they stand on issues like this as well and what precautions they need to take if they indeed still want to run them.
> 
> It's reason I stopped being involved in the Gladstone expo - I held a stall one year, never again have I been back with my reptiles or even to have a look. Snakes were being taken out of their enclosures and walked around the complex, fresh shed skins were on display and ended up everywhere including on my table - not to mention all the grabby hands (kids and adults alike) who were previously handling other people's snakes, not washing their hands, then touching anything and everything!
> 
> Don't get me wrong I think it's a good thing they are trying to do, but that just put me completely off as there was no regard for quarantine matters AT ALL.



I agree that this is a very valid piont. Perhaps organisers of the expos may have to rethink handling rules at least in the display areas & perhaps have a seperate designated area where people can get snakes out to be handled. I know that at the Gladstone Expo people where warned & told of the potential for spreading disease & warned to take precaution & be it at thier own risk. But yes this will have to be looked at closely in the future or do not display, which all of this would be a shame as they are a great education for the public & other reptile keepers.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Renenet (May 24, 2012)

How much work is being done on this potentially new virus? If it is a new virus, it would be fascinating to track its origins and development.

I'll be picking up a copy of S&T in July.


----------



## GC_Pet_Centre (May 24, 2012)

Great work, Joy and S&T team, and looking forward to the article. I think it will be easy for everyone to go into panic mode with this new information, but I think it will all be about education and understanding these viruses, so thank you Joy and Dr Shane Simpson for providing everyone with this information.
Quarantine is something that is so important with any animal, not just reptiles. Most people, especially new keepers will not understand why we need to quarantine, and I believe that it is a responsibility of the breeder or seller to help educate people. It is by no means a hard thing to work into a routine. House new animals in a different room. Take a shower before you deal with the reptiles. Clean and feed established animals, and do the newcomers last. Disinfect everything! 
I understand a big problem is dirty breeders and pet shops. The high turnover is a bit of a worry to the industry, but again education is key. We have had quarantine facilities set up with our puppies and kittens for several years now, and with the reptile room renovation that we have had over the last 12 months has seen the introduction of quarantine procedures. What you see on show in our room is about a third of what is actually there. We have three rooms set up for this purpose. One room houses our newcomers, whether they be hatchlings or adults and they stay there for a minimum of 6 weeks up to several months. They are cleaned and fed last. The other room houses our adult breeding animals. This room holds already quarantined and established animals. Then there is the display room which is open to the public. This room houses animals that have been quarantined, healthy and feeding well. In my personal opinion these practices should be in place in every pet shop in Australia. Again, it is education. We are trying to raise the standard of animals in pet shops and we can already see improvements happening in several other large pet stores in Brisbane.
Which ever side of the industry you and I are on: Education. Lets help each other!


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 24, 2012)

Whilst I basically agree with what Wokka and Splitmore have said, I am curious about the way these diseases present themselves in such a spasmodic way. There is no doubt that they do manifest themselves for a period of time and then seem to disappear for lengthy periods. I wonder if it's a bit like the flu epidemics we see in humans where small mutations in the virus re energise it a year or two later and it returns as a new threat to a population which has gained immunity to the earlier form.

We should also be mindful that this is very new research which basically ditches the previously held notion that OPMV is what we were seeing here in the past 15 years - evidently it it never has been OPMV.

Jamie


----------



## Renenet (May 25, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> We should also be mindful that this is very new research which basically ditches the previously held notion that OPMV is what we were seeing here in the past 15 years - evidently it it never has been OPMV.



So as far as can be told, OPMV has never existed in Australia and it's been this Sunshine virus all the time? How interesting. Anyway, it sounds like the Sunshine virus can be tested for, which is excellent news.


----------



## GlennB (May 25, 2012)

Hey guys can someone tell me what this virus is I'm
Not having much luck finding it on the Internet and I dont have Facebook what are the symptoms of sunshine virus? Thanks Glenn


----------



## wokka (May 25, 2012)

I am sure this will not be the last virus to turn up. Australia has millions of reptiles spread across diverse environments. Once animals are housed more intensively which allows for closer observations "new" diseases will be found. In the wild the extremes within a variable environment often keep diseases at bay but in a controlled intensive environment, conditions are sometimes ideal for diseases to replicate. In saying diseases I am using the term coloquially to include parasites, viruses, bacteria etc.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 25, 2012)

I am certain that the next edition of S&T will be well sought after, if for nothing else but to find out about the findings & research of this potential new? disease.
Well done again Joy.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Waterrat (May 25, 2012)

It is drumming up a lot of interest and no doubt a lot of people will by the magazine. I just hope that the article will deal with THIS particular virus in depth and not just a hypothetical mention in one paragraph wrapped up in general quarantine and safe husbandry practices advice.


----------



## The Reptile Outlet (May 25, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> It is drumming up a lot of interest and no doubt a lot of people will by the magazine. I just hope that the article will deal with THIS particular virus in depth and not just a hypothetical mention in one paragraph wrapped up in general quarantine and safe husbandry practices advice.



Michael it's going to be about this particular virus definitely...... Like everyone else I can't wait for Shane to send it to me for editing.
Cheers
Joy


----------



## Waterrat (May 25, 2012)

It's good to hear, thanks Joy.


----------



## cement (May 25, 2012)

So the major outbreak at the ARP was not OPMV?

Is the general consensus now?

I see flaws in some peoples quarantine practice where they have a quarantine room separate to their collection. Especially with fairly intensive keeping. Where a snake has been quarantined for 3mths and all seems well but others have joined the room and only been in there for 2 weeks etc, they are coming and going at different times effectivily rendering the quarantine period invalid.

At a wildlife carers conference last year, a reptile vet stated that 13 mths should be the minimum quarantine period these days. With not much known about this one 13mths is a good time as it encompasses a full year and seasons where its possible the virus may lay dormant.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this virus didn't originate in the wild, then it would be there now.


----------



## -Peter (May 25, 2012)

So the last big outbreak, was that Sunshine virus?


----------



## Frozenmouse (May 25, 2012)

scary stuff


----------



## Chris1 (May 25, 2012)

im totally confused about teh aerosol bit,.....


----------



## Fantazmic (May 25, 2012)

Chris..I think they are referring to snake sneezes lol...which would make sense if it starts with RI symptoms....


----------



## Pythoninfinite (May 25, 2012)

Fantazmic said:


> Chris..I think they are referring to snake sneezes lol...which would make sense if it starts with RI symptoms....



Yep - coughed, snorted or sneezed airborne droplets, which may or may not remain airborne for some time. The liquid component can evaporate and leave dust-like particles floating around in the air...

Jamie


----------



## Chris1 (May 25, 2012)

ooh, i feel so silly!! :

Thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## ingie (May 25, 2012)

Airborne particles. 

I would like to know if Sunshine is able to be overcome/carried by some individuals or is it 100% death rate for collections and individuals after exposure with no hope of any individuals having natural resistance. On one hand it would be scary to think that it had 100% fatality rate in exposed snakes. However, the thought of it being carried in to unsuspecting collections because a reptile has survived quarantine but remained contagious (like feline herpes or lorikeets with beak and feather disease) is even more scary.

Would a person be able to assume their collection was clean from the virus after say 1-2 years of having a closed collection without any deaths or signs of RI, and strict hygiene practices?


----------



## wokka (May 25, 2012)

ingie said:


> Airborne particles.
> 
> I would like to know if Sunshine is able to be overcome/carried by some individuals or is it 100% death rate for collections and individuals after exposure with no hope of any individuals having natural resistance. Would a person be able to assume their collection was clean from the virus after say 1-2 years of having a closed collection without any deaths or signs of RI, and strict hygiene practices?


Just assume that every disease is 100% fatal and quarantine accordingly. There are heaps of diseases about which are fatal to humans. Some people chose to live in a glass cage but most carry on with simple precautions the easiest of which is to wash your hands.


----------



## Stevo2 (May 25, 2012)

If it originates here it will be interesting to see just how quickly it's discovered overseas........


----------



## Waterrat (May 25, 2012)

Stevo2 said:


> If it originates here it will be interesting to see just how quickly it's discovered overseas........



LOL You have a sinister mind Stevo, is the smuggling train running on time? LOL


----------



## Frozenmouse (May 25, 2012)

Does it come from Sunshine in melbourne west?


----------



## -Peter (May 25, 2012)

So its not the same virus as the last paramyxovirus. So all we have to do is ride it out. Dump your suspect animals on the market, keep your mouth shut and it'll all be okay in the long run. Worked for most people then, should work again.
I'm still bitter.


----------



## cement (May 25, 2012)

Yeah and with a name like sunshine, who wouldn't want it?


----------



## Wild~Touch (May 26, 2012)

It would be interesting to know if "Sunshine" affects Morelia only or if any other snakes are at risk

Another thought: Could it be spread by substrate ? in a similiar way Legionnaires Disease is picked up from potting mix


----------



## ingie (May 26, 2012)

wokka said:


> Just assume that every disease is 100% fatal and quarantine accordingly. There are heaps of diseases about which are fatal to humans. Some people chose to live in a glass cage but most carry on with simple precautions the easiest of which is to wash your hands.



Depends what you want from your collection I suppose. If it is just a few pets then yeah sure, take it with a grain of salt. If I had an extensive collection with multi generational breeding plans and planed to be a reptile enthusiast for the rest of my days, I would be more inclined to treat my collection like a bubble boy in a glass cage. 

It only takes one bad decision to bring these nasties home on your self/clothes, on your friends, or on new animals. If you did bring something like Sunshine virus home, I wonder how many people's quarantine procedures are actually executed well enough to prevent contaminating the rest of their collection. It sure pays to know how your future reptile provider conducts their collection, if that (truthful) information is available to you.

Fortunately it is much easier to keep a reptile collection in lock down than a person. I keep my sun conure in lock down to protect him from nasty diseases (mainly beak and feather) because I want to have him for a long time. People used to tease me for the lengths I would go to to not bring any bird germs home to Boo. They stopped teasing when one of the girls I knew said her cockatoo tested positive for beak and feather disease and I was the only one who knew for sure that my bird was safe.

Personally my life revolves around my animals so the extra work in keeping everything in lock down mode brings me more joy than inconvenience.


----------



## wokka (May 27, 2012)

I believe that a lot of diseases are already in our collections waiting for the conditions condusive to replication which allow the disease to overpower the animal and take over. A little like Myco in rats which is not a problem until stress levels rise to the level where myco can take over!


----------



## ingie (May 27, 2012)

I agree with that for sure. I think there would be a lot of nasties lurking in people's collections right now. The horror!


----------



## Sdaji (May 28, 2012)

When I first started keeping snakes in the mid 90s I met herpers who told me about Crypto, everyone had thought it was this hideous disease which would wipe out all their snakes, but it turned out not to be as bad as they thought. You never hear about crypto now, 'cause it's not cool. Then it was something else, I can't even remember, something fungal which was 'wiping out racks and racks of snakes in several collections' but hey, it isn't around now, but everyone was crapping themselves. Then it was IBD, OMG it was in Australia and we were all going to die. Then it was OPMV, and that name stuck for ages. Then it was some encephalitis thing, then it was this, then it was that, now it's Sunshine disease, and just like every other time since before I ever bought my first Children's Python in the mid 90s, a lot of people are going to take this one seriously, the vets will claim to have it worked out now, they'll charge everyone money for diagnoses, and then down the track it will be blizzard virus or hail virus or VROTS virus.

Every single time it is the same thing, they come up with a new name and know everything about it, and every single time, a few years later, 'oops, we were wrong, it isn't even in the country' or 'oops, it's not actually harmful'. Heck, I even remember the Salmonella scares. I remember a vet (I won't name the vet personally) speaking at a reptile meeting around 10 years ago telling us that she had been testing sick reptiles and found Salmonella, and this was the big monster we should be fearing. Well, of course you're going to find Salmonella if you look for it - it's supposed to be there, it's everywhere, and it's not going to hurt them. Normal, healthy humans have bacteria in their guts too (which help us and are supposed to be there), and if we decided to call them nasty we could cut up all the people who died of any sickness and say "ZOMG! We found bacteria x in ALL their bellies! It MUST be the problem!"

Perhaps this new Sunshine Virus will stick, perhaps it will be upgraded to the Heatwave Virus and we'll get even more scared. Here we go again. Whee. Call me cynical, but the same thing has been going around in circles for decades.

Quarantine is something most vocal people jump up and down about but almost no people properly practice. It's actually almost impossible for most people, and very few people try anyway. We jump up and down about quarantine but still have pet shops and expos, which make quarantine utterly impossible. Sunshine virus is the new monster, huh? It travels via aerosols, huh? So if it's in the same airspace as other reptiles, it can spread, huh? And you're going to quarantine how? If you've brought an animal from an expo or pet shop, you're not practicing quarantine. Does it matter? Maybe, maybe not.

What I've found very interesting over the years is that animal in pet shops, including mascot animals which stay in the same shop year after year seem strangely immune. Animals are brought into these shops from a wide spectrum of sources including wild animals and the 'dirtiest' collections from all over the country. Yet, we see these animals staying in good health year after year, as long as the husbandry is good. I know of plenty of collections which have animals freely coming and going and many people coming in to handle them, or in some cases, many of the animals are used in public displays. I've seen 10-20 year old snakes in these collections which are being exposed to everything possible.

On the other hand, I have seen collections where everything seems to die, nothing seems to stay healthy for long. The difference seems to be husbandry more than anything else.

I do think mites are an important husbandry issue and one which is relatively easy to prevent with a moderate quarantine effort. I can't say for sure if mites themselves are the only reason mites cause problems, or if it is because they very readily spread diseases between reptiles which usually don't get spread, or if it is actually more just that the type of people who don't keep mites away are also the type of people who don't have proper husbandry. Either way, there is a very strong correlation.

One thing I can say for sure is that year after year, decade after decade, the stuff that gets said is absolute blatant nonsense but people still jump on the bandwagon and follow it. The only consistent thing is that the new information is always obvious garbage right from the start, or the vets spin around after a few years and tell everyone it was garbage, because they have a new story to tell (which also turns out to be garbage and is usually obviously garbage from day one).

Despite the above, I personally stay on the paranoid side and do my best to maintain good quarantine. I have brought new snakes into my collection a total of twice in the last five years, I'm very selective with what I get and where I get it, and I quarantine as carefully as possible.

Frankly, I suspect I'm wasting my time other than in terms of keeping mites away, but I do it anyway. If we actually cared about quarantine we'd have to completely stop doing most of what we do, and most people are unwilling to do that. The constant nonsense of this whole issue is just ridiculous.

Anyway, I could rant all day, but I'm sure that's already more than most people want to bother reading :lol:

Have fun, believe the hype, stay paranoid, follow the rules, they know what they're talking about so pay attention, until they tell you they were wrong


----------



## sigridshurte (May 31, 2012)

Lol fair argument. At the same time viruses adapt and change to fit in with the current environment. there is no denying that there are some viruses out there that wipe out entire collections at a time. Doesn't matter what the names are, what matters is how it is spread, and how to stop the spread and control the problem.


----------



## Meerkat (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you for this article in the Scales and Tails mag. I picked up my copy today and immediately was drawn to this article primarily as I recognised the body posture in the photo as that of the same posturing in my blonde mac. I purchased my adult mac from a reputable breeder who let me know that he had a respiratory infection prior to my purchasing him, however he had been treated and was now putting on weight. With this in mind I brought him home and kept him quarantined from the rest of my collection. For the first month, he ate well and shed well and I was happy with my new purchase. Then I started to see a change in his body language and eating behavior. He was having trouble eating, in that he would strike and wrap, then as he let go, he didn't seem to be able to find the head again. I tried to feed him in successive weeks, however he just couldn't find the head and eventually he would give up. The next thing that occurred was that he developed a crackle and pop sound and a head tilt. I took him straight to a reptile vet who said that he had a respiratory infection and that he was to be treated with antibiotics for 30 days. He was treated for the month and during that time, the respiratory infection did clear up, however his head tilt turned go so severe that he would sleep with his head upside down. He would also slide along on his back and could not seem to find his right way up. The vet said that it was the worst case she had seen and that she did not hold much hope. My observations were that his problems were mostly neuro and not respiratory. My mac also had a caking along side his mouth that the vet said was not unusual for a respiratory disease. So by this time his symptoms were:
Head tilt
Disorientation
Mouth discharge
Defecation every time he was handled
Refusal to eat
Severe weight loss
Lethagy
Loss of body tone
So, the vet did not know what was wrong, I informed the breeder, who did not know what was wrong and couldn't find anything on line. I have had so many experienced people tell me conflicting information. My gut told me to put him down and put him out of his misery. Professionals told me to keep going with even more antiobiotics.

After reading your article, I have put my lovely little boy down this evening so that he is now not suffering anymore. With no known cure, I have done the best thing and now wish that I had known earlier and hence not put him through unnecessary suffering.

I am glad that I used quarantine procedures - however part of my is still very nervous for the rest of my collection. I am furious with the breeder I purchased him from. I am disappointed with the reptile vet that couldn't diagnose him correctly. I am grateful that your have written this article and hopefully this awful virus can be eradicated.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 15, 2012)

It is very disappointing to read your story. 

I am also bitterly disappointed to read some of the comments that were made previously. No-one said the vets know all about it. Viruses do not mutate to suit their environment. Some reptiles carry salmonella and if you are not careful you can contract it from them. Nor is a natural, essential part of their gut flora. I’m too disgusted to deal any more.

What we were told is there is a virulent virus, the Sunshine virus, which appears to be spread by direct contact and in aerosols. It appears the viruses have a 6 to at least 10 week incubation period but it may be longer as we simply do not know. It presents itself in the form of an RI with animals deteriorating from there, displaying neurological symptoms similar to Ferlavirus (aka OMPV). 

People were given information on what to look out for and what to do in terms of quarantine. It is known to kill large numbers of animals within a collection when an infection is introduced. In other words, it is highly infectious and deadly.

I don’t give stuff what any individual does or doesn’t do with their snakes as a result of this knowledge. But no-one has the right to belittle or override the facts! Ignorance is not a solution.

Blue


----------



## Wild~Touch (Jul 15, 2012)

THE BIG IF:

If reptile keepers were completely TRUTHFUL to themselves and between friends and acquaintances viruses could be nipped in the bud 

.............. But NO the mighty dollars controls and who wants to be left with a suspect collection or dead animals.

I've looked down the barrel of the loaded gun and know what it feels like (this was 10+ yrs ago) and that is the exact reason everything I own is "quarantined" from outsiders.

My animals are clean and healthy (always have been) and I can sleep at night.

Bottom line is .. it is up to the individual how they run their affairs ... you can wash your hands all you like but you're still not visiting my premises

Cheers
Sandee


----------



## Fantazmic (Jul 15, 2012)

Meerkat I am not sure why you are furious with the breeder. The breeder was honest with you telling you that you were going to purchase a snake with an RI. As we all know RI can be just an RI or something more sinister. You chose to purchase a sick animal and bring that animal into your collection. Fortunately you were sensible to carry out quarantine procedures and hopefully what you have done will be enough. If you are upset with anyone it should be yourself.

I know if a breeder was honest with me and said the snake you are about to purchase has had an RI I wouldn't purchase. 

If the breeder has said nothing and send you a sick snake...then I think you would have a right to be angry.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Jul 15, 2012)

Hmmm... I've read Sdaji's post and considered the points he's made, some of which I fully agree with, others with which I disagree relate mainly to the irritable nature of his response. 

Firstly, I fully agree with him that these "mysterious" viruses are clearly not bringing about the end of the reptile keeping world as we know it... sure there have been some collection disasters in various parts of the world from time to time, but for the most part, for most of us (including me, touch wood!) life goes on pretty much as usual. He's right in saying that most people simply cannot quarantine effectively for these things, probably because they largely don't understand how to do it effectively, and to be effective, even one breach of the protocol lands you back to square one, and you have to start all over again. (That's not forgetting the old "it won't happen to me" syndrome, which, I have to say, I've been guilty of occasionally...).
And yes, there are vets out there who demonstrate fundamental ignorance and thus offer bad advice - the Salmonella thing is classic - when I was 16 (1964!) I offered my reptiles to a researcher from Royal Perth Hospital, for cloacal and buccal swabbing. Every one of the cloacal swabs returneda positive result for various Salmonella species, and the range of herps included lizards, snakes and a few Freshwater Crocs. So the existence of Salmonella in reptile gut flora has been known for decades. Similarly, on APS recently, a vet was quoted as suggesting olive oil as a means of assisting a bad shed - even basic logic tells you that the snake probably had a bad shed because of a lack of water somehwere in the physiology chain. Why would you add a water repelent layer to the skin of an already dehydrated snake???

Sdaji's irritable dismissal of the work done by Tim Hyndman is short sighted. Tim is a vet, now dedicated to research, but he's also a reptile enthusiast, and a keeper himself (I had the pleasure of dealing with him when I was a dealer in Perth). Tim has devoted the past few years to trying crack the complexities of the causative agents of these periodic wipeouts that occur from time to time in this country and others. What he has uncovered so far is potentially the beginning of a complete change in our understanding of what's going on in this country.

We in Australia have been basically hanging on the coat-tails of overseas researchers for the past couple of decades, scratching our heads when there's a problem, and saying it's all too hard when the pathology just adds even more mystery to the mix. But here in Oz, and in herpetology-backward Perth for goodness sake (I'm from Perth lol!), we have a young man who is on the way to unravelling some of the tangles we have in our own back yard. From his last communication with me, Tim indicated that there is the likelihood that our snakes may be testable for this disease in the very near future. Regardless of mighty Sdaji's dismissive tone, this HAS to be a good thing, and a major step towards a less fearful future for herpers, regardless of whether you think adding to the body of knowledge serves a purpose or not. There are still mysteries to solve, but the work is ongoing, and the future has more light shone on it now than it has ever had.

There is one thing we should all be grateful for as well - Tim Hyndman is a scientist who supports reptile keepers, and is putting his time & money where his mouth is... there are precious few in science who give a damn about hobby keepers - we need to encourage every one we've got.

Jamie


----------



## FusionMorelia (Jul 15, 2012)

apart from se qld has this virus shown up anywhere else? has it crossed any boarders yet?


----------



## Wild~Touch (Jul 15, 2012)

Quarantine procedures: 

Could include a mandatory F10 footbath and shower at the entry gate to all Reptile Expos, oh yeah and I guess pet shops could be included.

Bit over the top ? ... think about it


----------



## junglepython2 (Jul 15, 2012)

Wild~Touch said:


> Quarantine procedures:
> 
> Could include a mandatory F10 footbath and shower at the entry gate to all Reptile Expos, oh yeah and I guess pet shops could be included.
> 
> Bit over the top ? ... think about it



No handling and no sales at expos would be even better.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Jul 15, 2012)

NatoRey said:


> apart from se qld has this virus shown up anywhere else? has it crossed any boarders yet?



From what I gather, this is the thing that we've all been calling OPMV for the past 15-20 years. Tim hasn't had one sample in this country test positive to OPMV, although he suggests that he suspects it is here (I guess this is likely because it would come in with illegal imports - there has been very large mortalities with imported GTPs etc...)

Jamie


----------



## -Peter (Jul 15, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> From what I gather, this is the thing that we've all been calling OPMV for the past 15-20 years. Tim hasn't had one sample in this country test positive to OPMV, although he suggests that he suspects it is here (I guess this is likely because it would come in with illegal imports - there has been very large mortalities with imported GTPs etc...)
> 
> Jamie



A few years back about 200 biopsy samples were sent to the US for testing. They all tested negative for OPMV. I had material in there via Taronga but never got any feedback beyond that. So whatever it was I think there is a possibility we now have an answer. Shame we cant retrieve those samples for retesting here.


----------



## Renenet (Jul 15, 2012)

Damn - I forgot to pick up a copy of S&T when I was last at the newsagency. I'll have to remember to stop by on Tuesday.


----------



## Sdaji (Jul 16, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Sdaji's irritable dismissal of the work done by Tim Hyndman is short sighted.



Irritable? Short sighted? I'm just saying that I've been hearing the exact same nonsense for nearly 20 years and it always turns out to be nonsense, even those who were making the claims keep saying it, and there is no more evidence now than ever before. Funnily enough, the exact same thing happens in other animals groups. Whether it's fish, birds, mammals or reptiles it's always the same old story, just different labels.

Pointing out that something someone says is not true is never a 'pleasant' thing, but that doesn't make it irritable.

Of course there are some actual diseases out there, and sometimes you even see some genuine information going around, but this is just the same old myth which comes up time and again. Unless you want to believe that countless vets have been playing the same game in all animal circles in all western countries for decades, and this is the first time it's any different. I know what I think is more likely. As always, some will believe it (though none will actually do anything about it anyway - that's always a big part of what happens. Lots of people say "Oh my god!" and "I now practise good quarantine!" but essentially none of them actually change anything they do). In a few years another vet will raise his or her hand and explain why this one was wrong, tell us his or her new story which of course will be completely correct, and it will be Groundhog Day again.

Tim isn't the only reptile enthusiast who has studied biology and worked with animals in labs and stuff.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2012)

"Tim isn't the only reptile enthusiast who has studied biology and worked with animals in labs and stuff." 

Oooh! Aren't we feeling patronising today ! What are you actually saying is not true matey? I'm usually the one wearing the high & mighty badge around here, I think I may have to pass it on lol! I think you took too many cynical pills today boy.

Jamie


----------



## Sdaji (Jul 16, 2012)

Pythoninfinite said:


> "Tim isn't the only reptile enthusiast who has studied biology and worked with animals in labs and stuff."
> 
> Oooh! Aren't we feeling patronising today ! What are you actually saying is not true matey? I'm usually the one wearing the high & mighty badge around here, I think I may have to pass it on lol! I think you took too many cynical pills today boy.
> 
> Jamie



It's not cynicism, it's just seeing what it obvious and commenting on it. Patronising? How? You were the one trying to pull rank on behalf of Tim, I was just saying that it didn't mean he was right. I think I said more than enough in my earlier post, and the fact that it's nonsense is hardly difficult to get your head around if you want to be objective rather than get sucked in... which reminds me... how's the magazine going for ya? 

Oooh, I went there!  Cheap shot, I know, I'm sorry, but it was too obvious, funny (and frankly, probably true) not to go with  You were attacking me and that was all I could come up with in response! Sorry sorry sorry!   

All in good fun


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2012)

What can I say ??? It probably was a cheapish shot... but I've got broad shoulders (moreso since I've become a regular gym junkie again lol! I've had to because humble pie has been a large part of my diet lately ). Cheap shots usually say more about the shot-taker than the target, and this is just such an instance.

Look Sdaji, I wasn't rying to pull rank on behalf of anyone... I have known Tim since about 2004, when he completed his vet degree, and his interest in reptiles began. Perhaps you know more about him than anyone else here, I don't know whether you do or not. I haven't read his first published data, but if you have, then perhaps you can tell us where it all goes wrong. I guess at the end of the day that most researchers should run their proposed projects past you to ensure that they're not wasting their time, and those who choose to go it alone just have to take their chances.

My intention here has not been to personalise this discussion, or to align myself with one view or another. But you have taken a cynical sideswipe at someone you've probably never met, whose work you probably know little about, and who (unlikely as the prospect sounds to APS members) may know just a little more about something than you do... 

Correct me if I'm wrong (although I'm sure you need no invitation to do that )! I'm sure your ego won't be able to help itself !

Jamie


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 16, 2012)

*Sadji*,
You have your facts wrong. There is nothing mythical about those collections which have suffered substantial losses due to this particular pathogen. You can afford to sit back and throw stones because as you have stated, you practice quarantine. The reality is, just because you have not been affected by disease or parasites, does not mean they are not real and they have not affected others.

It appears to me that you are reacting to the individuals who tend to over react to such situations. No-one in a position of knowledge has forecast an epidemic. Some posters who appear to have felt that is likely but at this stage, with what we know, we cannot say that is likely. What we can say is if it is introduced to your collection and not immediately addressed, then you run the very real chance of wiping out virtually all your animals. In other words, it has been demonstrated to be highly infectious and deadly.

The spread of such pathogens can be significantly reduced through basic quarantine procedures. The current occurrence of it is fairly limited. This may well be due to the fatal nature – hits a collection and stops there. It also seem to have a fairly short incubation period, which again aids early detection (whether or not a keeper or vet recognises the causative factor) and this can allow early intervention to prevent further spread. 

Concerns about spreading from petshop outlets may not be well founded. Pet shops tend to have as little contact as possible with their snakes. If they get sick they usually put them out back and hope they will get better. They will certainly be giving any supplier of sick snakes a hard time or changing suppliers. Individuals buying infected snakes that soon die are also going to want their money back. So I see this as a self-correcting situation.

The potential for widespread infection through an expo is very real. With the low occurrence of the disease it is highly unlikely. Nevertheless, I would consider it a risk not worth taking no matter how slight a possibility. So those suggesting quarantine procedures for expos are being sensible. They are NOT over-reacting to some myth.

While we still have a lot to learn about this pathogen, what we know so far should be made public knowledge. If it encourages people to start practicing basic quarantine, that is not a bad thing. It isn’t about hitting the panic button, it is about recognising a potential threat, albeit only a slight threat at present (and that is likely to continue given the time frame we have already been experiencing it) that does have devastating effects.

All of that aside, you seem to have some personal beef with vets. Here is not the arena to voice those prejudices. It has absolutely nothing to do with what has been put forward. Tim Hyndman is a researcher who has discovered that what we thought was OPMV disease from overseas is in fact not this disease at all. The pathological signs of the two disease are very alike, but the initial presentation of RI and the much shorter incubation period are unique to the Australian disease. He has been working on developing a test to reveal the presence of the pathogen in living snakes. Where OPMV can only be diagnosed from post mortem tissue samples, Tim is hopeful he may be able to diagnose Sunshine Virus from living tissue samples. This would be a tremendous boon in allowing us to study the pathogen and determine such things as modes of transmission, exact incubation period, whether it exhibits latentcy, what effects anti-viral drugs have… in other words, to allow potential effective control methods to be developed.

Tim is a good mate and a really decent bloke. I suggest you find another whipping boy because I for one, along with Jamie, will NOT stand by and have you denigrate him in your ignorance.

Blue


----------



## Elapidae1 (Jul 16, 2012)

I find it amusing that some people take such precaution with their animals yet for the most party we go about our normal lives despite the worst flu epidemic in years. 
The flu virus has mutated and the vaccine is no longer effective we should all really quarantine ourselves for our health and well being and that of others. Yet people still drag their disease ridden bodies around spreading it.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 16, 2012)

The nature of the flu virus lends itself to regular mutation. Because it is not fatal most people are prepared to tough it out. The vulnerable group in society will often seek vaccination. Part of the problem is, however, that they develop a vaccine for a given strain and it mutates again rendering that vaccine useless. You are quite right about the spreading of it. The reason these diseases are prevalent in winter is that people spend most of their time indoors which generates ideal conditions for transmission of the virus. It simply aternates between the southern hemisphere and the northern hemisphere with the seasons.

Blue


----------



## Sdaji (Jul 17, 2012)

Goodness, there's a lot of crap in here. I could argue all day, week, month and year, but the forum isn't really worth it.

But I will say, I loved Jamie's string of shots, then a claim that those who take them are bad when I give one back, then claiming to have broad shoulders, then having a sook and throwing a bunch more shots!

It doesn't take a smart person to see that the claims about this 'new sunshine virus' are silly, but it takes a stupid or naive person to miss it. It would take a stupid person to argue about it more than I already have, and probably a stupid person to go that far. I may be blunt, I may be tactless, but hey, what I said makes sense.

Believe whatever you choose to, based on whatever you choose as your basis


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 17, 2012)

Why would you want to in instruct people to believe what they want based on whatever they choose as the basis. That is both irrational and irresponsible. People should be advised to draw their own conclusions from the known facts, nothing more, nothing less. And surely the forum is the most appropriate place to assist people to do that.

I understand your desire to curb any hysteria or over reaction that these issues can often generate. However, saying it is all crap, denying the established facts and blaming vets in general for the over-reaction which hasn’t even occurred yet, is an emotive response lacking in thought and consideration of the ramifications, as well as disappointingly incorrect for someone of your reputation.

I have made the relevant points in my previous post. Feel free to challenge any or all. Whilst we may seem at loggerheads I am confident we both share the desire – to see common sense prevail. 

Blue


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Jul 17, 2012)

Sdaji regards himself as the scientific reference point for reptile keepers, and a cut above most keepers - we should all sit in hushed awe when he makes his pronouncements... Sorry buddy, but you're an egotistical prat, and always have been. I'm not sooking by the way matey - I never do...

Jamie


----------



## drsimpson (Jul 18, 2012)

Hi all,
I tend to stay off the forums because it tends to do my head in with all the incorrect medical information/treatment/diagnosis/delays in appropriate treatment that gets posted but I was alerted to this thread by a couple of people. As the co-author of the article that appeared in Scales and Tails I would like to make a few comments and pose a few questions.

Firstly the reason for the article was to present the FACTS about what is CURRENTLY known about the viral situation in snakes in this country. For too long assumptions and heresay have been rampant about this issue. The article wa never designed to create mass hysteria amongst keepers but you should all be aware of this virus and if it does nothing than do this then the article has achieved its goal. This is not a trivial matter as some have made it out to be on this thread. This virus has the very real potential of killing off collections (in fact it has already has done so) and ignore it at your peril. This virus is unlikely to wipe out the entire snake population in Australia but for those who have lost snakes to it it is devastating.

As vets we would never claim to know everything. In fact it would be stupid to do so. New information is always coming to hand through great research by dedicated people. This is called scientific advancement...What we now know may prove to be incorrect in 5 years, 10 years or even 20 years time. As we develop better diagnostic tests (such as the PCR test to detect Sunshine virus) more and more information will come to light. The Earth used to be flat...

The issue of Sunshine virus does raise some questions about expos, the selling and buying of snakes and of course quarantine. I do not pretend to know all the answers but I would suggest that collectively we can all have an input into this topic for the betterment of the hobby and more importantly the health of those animals we are responsible for. Viruses are complex things in just about everyway eg. transmission, incubation, why some animals get sick and others don't. There is still much to learn and it is why Tim, myself and many othere reptile vets do what we do. We want to learn and be able to educate people about the facts. If I wasn't learning all the time I would be bored out of my brain!

Sdaji... to be honest I am a little offended with your comments regarding vets. You have obviously not had a good experience somewhere along the way but please do not generalise your comments in such a way. There are some excellent reptile vets in this country who do a lot of great work. I know (as my family do to!) how much effort I have put in over my 17 years of being a vet to develop my skills and knowledge in the field of reptile medicine and surgery. This will be the same for all other reptile vets in the country. Others have defended Tim and his research and I will 100% support these comments. I have had the pleasure of working with Tim on a number of cases in the past few years and am in awe of his level of knowledge about viral disease in reptiles. I do not think any of us appreciate just how lucky we are to have him in the country and doing what he does. His work is truly ground breaking and only yesterday I found out he is presenting his findings at an international reptile vet conference later in the year. I asked him to co-author the article because he could provide all the technical, factual information that it needed. 

Sdaji, I am very perplexed by your comment above: _"It doesn't take a smart person to see that the claims about this 'new sunshine virus' are silly, but it takes a stupid or naive person to miss it"_ Are you intimating that what has been discovered and presented is silly? What claims are you referring to? Have you actually read the article????? Are you suggesting Tim, myself or all the other scientists that have done work in the field of reptile virology are stupid or naive?

I remind everyone if you have any further specific questions from reading the article please contact Scales and Tails as soon as possible. They are collating the questions and I will be answering those in the next edition. I have also posted all the references used to write the article, along with some further information about testing snakes on my website and you can find that here.

Nothing wrong with healthy debate but let's make sure it is based on scientific fact...

Regards,
Dr Shane Simpson


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jul 18, 2012)

*Shane*,
While I do not know you personally, I do have the opinions of respected others to go by. Putting that aside, I can only commend you on your comments and the personal restraint you have exercised in this process. To be only “a little offended” by the demeaning and derogatory comments that were aimed at yourself, amongst others, clearly indicates a desire to elevate the debate above personal feelings. I tip my hat to you and am pleased acknowledge that your displayed attitude in this regard confirms the opinions garnered from others that I referred to earlier. You are indeed a professional. 

The only thing I would say is in regard to the following comment you made: “What we now know may prove to be incorrect in 5 years, 10 years or even 20 years time.” I think this needs some expanding on so that those of a non-scientific background may properly understand what you were attempting to convey. Scientists work with the facts that they have. Those facts don’t change or become wrong over time. With any investigation of a biological nature, the initial sampling and available evidence is limited. Over time, with extended sampling, it may become apparent that what was has initially been observed is not a generalised phenomena. It may only apply to a select group or to a select set of circumstances. Consequently our understanding of the causative nature is adjusted accordingly.

As Shane indicated, the complexities involved are considerable and our understandings at this point in time are limited. Irrespective, it would quite simply be irresponsible not to let the snake keeping community know what the researchers have discovered to date. I don’t have issue with a guarded response from individuals reading about these facts for the first time. However, the reaction of some who were totally dismissive of the facts and simultaneously denigrated those being professional enough to present them, did need to be addressed and put into the correct perspective.

Blue


----------



## CrystalMoon (Jul 18, 2012)

I have at best average intelligence at worst "suspect" intelligence...... I am absolutely 100% grateful and appreciative to any and all that can help me understand and thus care/protect my animals(scaley/feathery and furred)from new and old threats(disease/husbandry issues) No matter the field/industry you will get bad advice/service however it would be a little silly to no longer go to or heed Doctors/vets/other service providers through a bad experience or bad advice etc Personally I dont care if things are hyped up or dramatized if it means I maybe better informed to care for and protect my Family(human and critters) Quite frankly it was the first mention of the Sunshine virus(and a surprise case of mites in a new addition)that made me really *THINK *about quarantine and how critical it is to the well being of my scaley kids. I am relatively new to keeping Pythons and thought I was providing adequate quarantine, on further research I realize I was only providing minimum quarantine.....Thanks to experienced members on here and to the articles in Scales and Tales(amongst other literature)I feel confident I am now doing my best for my Scaley guys  
A big thank-you from us.....


----------



## shaneb (Jul 19, 2012)

...


----------



## -Peter (Jul 19, 2012)

They are stating their position based on reason with the information available to them.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Jul 19, 2012)

Thank you for your input Shane. I am sorry that my stated support for Dr Hyndman led to some fairly personal backhanders from that member, aimed at both Tim and myself. I would like to point out that this researcher, and certainly others, are modest, extremely hard working and conscientious, and they are of necessity conservative in their assessments of their work. What they are dealing with is just as complex and the work as time consuming as it is with any human viral disease.

They deserve the fullest support from the reptile keeping community.

Jamie


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jul 19, 2012)

Apart from the Sunshine virus or any others,even opmv or what some might call normal RI. One should keep clean & ideal conditions for their reptiles.
It is a belief of mine that reptiles can retain (say as an example, store) a disease or even something as simple as RI until a complex situation arrises. That might be transportation or being housed simply in a different cage & environment, mostly obviouse with adults that then become ill & die? 

This is just my observations & just my opinion. Young snakes generally no problem, but older snakes can react & set off an attack.

Cheers
Ian


----------



## drsimpson (Jul 20, 2012)

Just a quick thank you for the positive comments and input on this discussion. Much appreciated!

@Blue: Exactly!!!
_The only thing I would say is in regard to the following comment you made: “What we now know may prove to be incorrect in 5 years, 10 years or even 20 years time.” I think this needs some expanding on so that those of a non-scientific background may properly understand what you were attempting to convey. Scientists work with the facts that they have. Those facts don’t change or become wrong over time. With any investigation of a biological nature, the initial sampling and available evidence is limited. Over time, with extended sampling, it may become apparent that what was has initially been observed is not a generalised phenomena. It may only apply to a select group or to a select set of circumstances. Consequently our understanding of the causative nature is adjusted accordingly._

@Ian: Appreciate your thoughts. My opinion is a little different though. It is certainly theorectically possible that reptiles of any sort can be carriers of certain diseases (though this has yet to be proven with Sunshine virus). Personally I think what tends to happen is that when an animal is kept in sub-optimal conditions (eg. too cold, too dry, poor light cycles, poor diet etc) over a period of time this causes stress. This in turn causes the animal to become immunocompromised. The result of this is that bacteria and other organisms that normally live within the body can evade the immune system and become pathogenic (ie. disease causing). Why do I think this? Because when actual testing is done on many of these animals (unfortunately most often on post-mortem) the organisms identified are those we normally find in the gut and lungs. Something has happened to allow them to cause disease. Example: Salmonella killing a reptile when we know that many, many normal healthy reptiles carry different forms of Salmonella. Another example is shell rot in turtles. Normal healthy turtles with good diets, water quality etc still are swimming around in their toilets and don't get shell rot. Poor water quality over time leads to stress. Turtle develops shell rot. Cultures from shell lesions show that the organisms are those that we would normally find in the enclosure. 

Thanks again,
Shane


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Jul 20, 2012)

drsimpson said:


> Just a quick thank you for the positive comments and input on this discussion. Much appreciated!
> 
> @Blue: Exactly!!!
> _The only thing I would say is in regard to the following comment you made: “What we now know may prove to be incorrect in 5 years, 10 years or even 20 years time.” I think this needs some expanding on so that those of a non-scientific background may properly understand what you were attempting to convey. Scientists work with the facts that they have. Those facts don’t change or become wrong over time. With any investigation of a biological nature, the initial sampling and available evidence is limited. Over time, with extended sampling, it may become apparent that what was has initially been observed is not a generalised phenomena. It may only apply to a select group or to a select set of circumstances. Consequently our understanding of the causative nature is adjusted accordingly._
> ...



This section in red is spot on IMO ...
Good job Shane.

cheers
Roger


----------



## drsimpson (Jul 21, 2012)

Hi again,
Thought this would be of interest in this thread. It was just posted online this morning:
UF veterinary researchers discover new virus linked to death of Australian snakes
Shane


----------



## Wild~Touch (Jul 21, 2012)

Very much appreciated thank you Doc.Shane


Cheers
Sandee


----------



## Ramsayi (Jul 21, 2012)

drsimpson said:


> Hi again,
> Thought this would be of interest in this thread. It was just posted online this morning:
> UF veterinary researchers discover new virus linked to death of Australian snakes
> Shane



Just wondering is there any definitive test available to confirm the presence of the virus?


----------



## drsimpson (Jul 21, 2012)

Yes there is a test available for both Sunshine virus and Ferlavirus.
Get yourself a copy of the lastest edition of Scales and Tails magazine and all the details are discussed in the article.
Further information regarding testing, including a video on how it should be done, can be found on my website here.

Shane


----------



## moussaka (Jul 22, 2012)

drsimpson said:


> Hi again,
> Thought this would be of interest in this thread. It was just posted online this morning:
> UF veterinary researchers discover new virus linked to death of Australian snakes
> Shane



Very interesting read, thanks for that. Looking forward to seeing the journal article.


----------

