# Are you religious?



## abbott75 (Jan 21, 2009)

BEFORE I START: Lets try to be adults. This is a controversial topic, and obviously we wont all agree. But can we try to keep it clean and not let the thread degenerate? Please? Nobody likes infractions.

Well, does anyone have a faith? Just curious as to the religious affiliations of APS 

Personally, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.


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## Schlumpe (Jan 21, 2009)

I belong the the church of Snakeology.


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## jas468 (Jan 21, 2009)

Hinduism?
Buddhism?
Jedi?
None of the above?


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## Renagade (Jan 21, 2009)

anyone see the other day the church roof that fell down killing a hand full of church goers and wounding 50 odd? Mmm... I'm glad that doesnt confuse me... Athiest.


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## Gecko :) (Jan 21, 2009)

Schlumpe said:


> I belong the the church of Snakeology.



That sounds good to me,. ill go with that too,. or maybe Geckology


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## notechistiger (Jan 21, 2009)

Non-theistic for me. Snakeology sounds good, sign me up.


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## abbott75 (Jan 21, 2009)

jas468 said:


> Hinduism?
> Buddhism?
> Jedi?
> None of the above?



Ooops! I meant to add "Atheist/No religion" as an option. Is it possible to edit polls?


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## Dave (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm atheist


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## Kurto (Jan 21, 2009)

I go to the pub on Saturday religously.........


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## Jennifer (Jan 21, 2009)

Pagan(Druid)


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## sarah_m (Jan 21, 2009)

Jehovah's witness


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## lemonz (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm christian. snakeology?-you can love reptiles to an extent,


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## NotoriouS (Jan 21, 2009)

Muslim


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## shadowsabre (Jan 21, 2009)

religion destroy's all the it touches, especially the mind.


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## Ishah (Jan 21, 2009)

I am not religious, I feel it is the cause of too much pain, devastation and war in the world, so hence I chose other, that being "no religion"... I don't want to be apart of all the politics etc that cause that much destruction and devastation... 

I do have my own beliefs and morals, but I will never be religious... Being non-religious doesnt make you a bad person... does it? :shock: I feel I am still a good person with good morals etc. So aslong as I "stay true to myself" lol I will be fine...:lol: 

The only way I would lose sleep at night is if I done something I knew was wrong and against what I believe etc... Being part of no religion doesnt make me feel any less of a person nor do I lose sleep over it... I actually sometimes feel I am a better person for it.

I still drink alcohol occasionally... and I have fun... Afterall, studies have proven a glass a day is good for you  :lol: Although I hate wine, so beer is my substitute :lol: I don't smoke or do drugs... I do swear tho occasionally... but try to avoid it as much as possible... But all in all I feel I'm doing alright, and I spose its still sticking to the beliefs of most religions to a degree, just without all the controversy

Plus I'm not going to not do something just because an old book says so... i.e. not have a birthday because Pagans got Jesus's birthday wrong or something...I was still born on the right day and I know it! Just because its fuzzy when his was, doesnt mean the whole world should deny themselves of theirs when they KNOW when it is...Its a good time to celebrate another year gone by unharmed and safe and catch up with all your long lost friends and family etc... Nor am I not do christmas because it's not when Jesus actually died or whatever... I still feel it is an important time of year to spend with your family and catch up with all your loved ones etc. Presents or not doesn't bother me... I still celebrate on all those days, but for different reasons to what their original meanings were...I use it mainly as a time to spend with family and friends and have a good time catching up with them.

Oh and I was baptised or whatever as Church of England/Anglican, but have no clue as to what their beliefs and stuff are LOL! And hence, don't practice it...

Haha sorry, bit of an essay... but thats my rant over for now...


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## SP.Morton (Jan 21, 2009)

were do you sign up for snakeology, (atheist)


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## Ishah (Jan 21, 2009)

Damn! No religion/athiest wasnt there when I voted, and I cant change it... Ahhh well... statistics is messed up now... lol... I'm sure I wasnt the only one who voted other when it wasn't there...


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## daniel1234 (Jan 21, 2009)

A bit of shopper. Mum was Christian when I was eight (and now is a Pastor, she married a Rev.) I believe something is out there, even if it is just life and the energy that binds it all together.


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## KenKitty (Jan 21, 2009)

*ME*

courogated iron.
kenoath:lol:


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## Radar (Jan 21, 2009)

Well said Ishah.


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## rebeccalg (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm a retired catholic... I take more of an agnostic approach these days.


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## White Wolf (Jan 21, 2009)

Pagan


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## jessb (Jan 21, 2009)

Religion? No way Jose! I can't abide the idea of handing over responsibility to all the stuff that happens in my life to an imaginary deity (ie "god works in mysterious ways" when something bad happens or "god blessed me with ..." when something good happens)

I believe somewhat in the concept of karma, but just in that if you are a good person, good things will come your way. 

I like the idea of reincarnation or an afterlife, but on the whole I think it is just a method to help us to cope with the scary idea of death and loss of loved ones.


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## cris (Jan 21, 2009)

I believe in the tooth fairy, but i dont worship.


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## fatfrog (Jan 21, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Personally, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.


 abbott75 did you come knocking at my door last year?


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## elapid66 (Jan 21, 2009)

there is no god


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## wiz-fiz (Jan 21, 2009)

i'm athiest/no beleif.


Will


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## redbellybite (Jan 21, 2009)

you could regard me i suppose, as i quiet often refer to GOD when I am doing things of a certain nature ..........:lol::lol::lol:


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## wiz-fiz (Jan 21, 2009)

jessb said:


> Religion? No way Jose! I can't abide the idea of handing over responsibility to all the stuff that happens in my life to an imaginary deity (ie "god works in mysterious ways" when something bad happens or "god blessed me with ..." when something good happens)
> 
> I believe somewhat in the concept of karma, but just in that if you are a good person, good things will come your way.
> 
> I like the idea of reincarnation or an afterlife, but on the whole I think it is just a method to help us to cope with the scary idea of death and loss of loved ones.


 

I like the way u think


Will


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## scam7278 (Jan 21, 2009)

Jedi


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## Ishah (Jan 21, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> you could regard me i suppose, as i quiet often refer to GOD when I am doing things of a certain nature ..........:lol::lol::lol:


 

ARGH! Goddamnit! MENTAL IMAGES! TMI! Thanks for that! Scarred for life now....:lol: Either that or it was left too ambiguous and you meant something else :lol: And then you can void my previous outburst lol


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## Dodie (Jan 21, 2009)

Born again atheist - and an iconoclast, I know people have the right to choose and think as they will but seriously, Lol..


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## BrownHash (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm Agnostic-athiest.


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## shane14 (Jan 21, 2009)

Christian mate-i dont go to church or anything but i am Christian


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## English (Jan 21, 2009)

shadowsabre said:


> religion destroy's all the it touches, especially the mind.


 
i think religion in its truest form destroys nothing.. in my view, although never baptisted it is the interpretation of individual religious leaders and how they hand down the information from religious teachings that brings about conflict.

if we never forget that i think we'll all become a lot more tolerant of each other and those beliefs.. it becomes all too easy for us to blame..


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## Vat69 (Jan 21, 2009)

There's no room in the aps inn for Jews?


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## hashbean (Jan 21, 2009)

*Rastafari born and breed
*


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## jessb (Jan 21, 2009)

hashbean said:


> *Rastafari born and breed*


 
Should've guessed by your name!!!


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## fatfrog (Jan 21, 2009)

I think theres to many religions to put in a poll that only allows you 10 entries and why would you put Jehovah's Witness and Anglican whitch are other christian and leave out the worlds 4th biggest religion hinduism and the worlds 6th biggest religion buddhism?


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## NotoriouS (Jan 21, 2009)

Agree!



English said:


> i think religion in its truest form destroys nothing.. in my view, although never baptisted it is the interpretation of individual religious leaders and how they hand down the information from religious teachings that brings about conflict.
> 
> if we never forget that i think we'll all become a lot more tolerant of each other and those beliefs.. it becomes all too easy for us to blame..


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## LauraM (Jan 21, 2009)

Schlumpe said:


> I belong the the church of Snakeology.


 im with schlumpe :lol:


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## Kurto (Jan 21, 2009)

hobbo said:


> Jedi



hahahaha, may the force be with you...always!


(WOOHOO 500 posts!!)


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## moosenoose (Jan 21, 2009)

110% atheist! 

Life is hard enough as it is without placing more restraints on ourselves. What really annoys me is the thinking that we’re some perfect design, created by some perfect being – bah! :lol: It that was the case I want to see an upgrade because this model has some serious flaws!


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## Minka (Jan 21, 2009)

I was born and raised by wolves...


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## DanTheMan (Jan 21, 2009)

I cant believe something that has no proof.
Plus follow ridiculous rules. Atheist!

Lol yea you forgot the Jews!
Iv never had one knocking on my door so they're ok!


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## cris (Jan 21, 2009)

English said:


> i think religion in its truest form destroys nothing.. in my view, although never baptisted it is the interpretation of individual religious leaders and how they hand down the information from religious teachings that brings about conflict.
> 
> if we never forget that i think we'll all become a lot more tolerant of each other and those beliefs.. it becomes all too easy for us to blame..



Religon in its truest form? Whatever a person believes is religon in its only form. The interesting thing is that most would have a slight variation in what they actually believe even if they do belong to the same sect. For example one person may think a god has a beard and drinks wine, but another person thinks the god is clean shaven with a mullet and drinks beer.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 21, 2009)

cris said:


> Religon in its truest form? Whatever a person believes is religon in its only form. The interesting thing is that most would have a slight variation in what they actually believe even if they do belong to the same sect. For example one person may think a god has a beard and drinks wine, but another person thinks the god is clean shaven with a mullet and drinks beer.



But I thought they reckon god wasn't a person? But they can never explain him to me?
But I don't bother listening its a waste of time.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 21, 2009)

Is there really a scientologist on here?!
Or is some one mucking around?


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## Moreliaman (Jan 21, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> Is there really a scientologist on here?!
> Or is some one mucking around?



Didnt you know....tom cruise joined last week !


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## cris (Jan 21, 2009)

[video=youtube;TvcDLTJZehg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvcDLTJZehg[/video]


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## Veredus (Jan 21, 2009)

There have been studies that link atheism with higher IQ.....:lol:


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## megrim (Jan 21, 2009)

I would have to say atheist.

I am however, very fond of both the Church Of The Invisible Pink Unicorn (Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves), and the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (May His Noodly Goodness Shine Apon Thee).


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## snake_lover (Jan 21, 2009)

athiest, although i may be interested in snakeology


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## Vat69 (Jan 21, 2009)

megrim said:


> I would have to say atheist.
> 
> I am however, very fond of both the Church Of The Invisible Pink Unicorn (Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves), and the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (May His Noodly Goodness Shine Apon Thee).



Megrim, I too, am a Pastafarian. Methinks you might also be interested in the Flat Earth Society?
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm


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## ogg666 (Jan 21, 2009)

Sith


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## cris (Jan 21, 2009)

Veredus said:


> There have been studies that link atheism with higher IQ.....:lol:



Being an atheist doesnt make you smarter than a religious person, but being a smarter more educated person can make you an atheist.


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## megrim (Jan 21, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> Megrim, I too, am a Pastafarian. Methinks you might also be interested in the Flat Earth Society?
> http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm



Best read I've had all week.

Cheers


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## Ishah (Jan 21, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> 110% atheist!
> 
> Life is hard enough as it is without placing more restraints on ourselves. What really annoys me is the thinking that we’re some perfect design, created by some perfect being – bah! :lol: It that was the case I want to see an upgrade because this model has some serious flaws!


 
Bahaha:lol: I SO know how you feel! I'm totally with you on everything you've just said! 



cris said:


> Being an atheist doesnt make you smarter than a religious person, but being a smarter more educated person can make you an atheist.


 
Oh so very true! Amen to that!:lol:


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## i_LoVe_AnImAlS (Jan 21, 2009)

i like the sound of snakeology where do you sign up??


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## Veredus (Jan 21, 2009)

cris said:


> Being an atheist doesnt make you smarter than a religious person, but being a smarter more educated person can make you an atheist.


 
Exactly what I was suggesting


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## Australis (Jan 21, 2009)

Until the Valkyrie come for me, ill remain Atheist.




Moreliaman said:


> Didnt you know....tom cruise joined last week !



Thought i saw someone jumping on a couch :shock:


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## fatfrog (Jan 21, 2009)

To most people a religion is a way for a community,group or family to bond and i have found that when i pray i feel better even if god dosent shine his light on me and make all my problems go away i still feel good and i believe god is listing and im not hardcore religious i dont even go to cherch that often but im stillchristian


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## Snowman (Jan 21, 2009)

pffffffftttt Scientology.......... where is the *HERPATOLOGY*!!!!!!


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## jessb (Jan 21, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> Megrim, I too, am a *Pastafarian*.


 
yep, I bow down before our great Lord, Agnolotti with Napolitana Sauce! :lol:


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## monis (Jan 21, 2009)

Festivus for the rest of us? 
But Seriously after going to school scripter for 5 years I made an informed desicion to become an athiest when i was 10. After that i still went to scripter for 3 more years and 2 scripter camps with friends which i enjoyed. Though despite my Informed desicion my grandma (true believer) still seems to consider me ignorant. 
Just my to cents.
Monis


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## pythoness (Jan 21, 2009)

For a truely objective poll you would need to include all known religons. Other doesn't realy cover all the alternatives.


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## cris (Jan 21, 2009)

pythoness said:


> Other doesn't realy cover all the alternatives.



I dont understand?


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## Ishah (Jan 21, 2009)

monis said:


> But Seriously after going to school scripter for 5 years I made an informed desicion to become an athiest when i was 10. After that i still went to scripter for 3 more years and 2 scripter camps with friends which i enjoyed. Though despite my Informed desicion my grandma (true believer) still seems to consider me ignorant.
> Just my to cents.
> Monis


 
I think I had a similar off-putting experience to turn me into an atheist/non-religious... I got catholicism (sp?) drilled into me for my first 7yrs of Primary school (K-Yr 6 in NSW) and then probably christianity or whatever the other way of putting "christian" is (If there is even a difference...) drilled into me for my last year of Primary school (Yr 7 in QLD)... And when you don't have a choice, and its drilled into you religiously (pardon the pun:lol a million times a day and a billion times a week regardless, its really off-putting! I think I was also 10yrs old when I discovered I could think for myself and developed my own opinions and beliefs on it all...

I did have other stuff I was going to say, but my stupid mouse sent me back a page and lost everything I'd written:evil:...Apparently when you accidently tap it, no matter where on the page, it takes that as "I want to go back to the previous page" and when you hit forward, it still doesn't have everything you had written there... Hence I will just hit "submit reply" before I do it again:shock: lol Haha thankfully, or I would imagine it would be a 10page essay at the rate I was going:shock: LOL!


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## monis (Jan 21, 2009)

Ishah said:


> I think I had a similar off-putting experience to turn me into an atheist/non-religious... I got catholicism (sp?) drilled into me for my first 7yrs of Primary school (K-Yr 6 in NSW) and then probably christianity or whatever the other way of putting "christian" is (If there is even a difference...) drilled into me for my last year of Primary school (Yr 7 in QLD)... And when you don't have a choice, and its drilled into you religiously (pardon the pun:lol a million times a day and a billion times a week regardless, its really off-putting! I think I was also 10yrs old when I discovered I could think for myself and developed my own opinions and beliefs on it all...
> 
> I did have other stuff I was going to say, but my stupid mouse sent me back a page and lost everything I'd written:evil:...Apparently when you accidently tap it, no matter where on the page, it takes that as "I want to go back to the previous page" and when you hit forward, it still doesn't have everything you had written there... Hence I will just hit "submit reply" before I do it again:shock: lol Haha thankfully, or I would imagine it would be a 10page essay at the rate I was going:shock: LOL!


 I see where you are coming from but it wasn't exacly the point i was trying to make. Although i didn't enjoy scripture it wasn't the negative experience that contributed to me being an athiest. I was more making the point that i got to know the religion before i rejected it and began to as you said think for myself and developing opinions.
Nice input.
Monis


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## timpye1 (Jan 21, 2009)

150% atheist


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## Lewy (Jan 21, 2009)

Hell no religion is a waste of time 

Lewy


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## Pythonking (Jan 21, 2009)

Wheres Satanism?!?!? no religion here but when someone can turn a cup of water into beer by looking at it I may consider converting


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## waruikazi (Jan 21, 2009)

I find religion fascinating. Especially how people will defend their religion to the bitter end and in the face of anything.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 21, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> I find religion fascinating. Especially how people will defend their religion to the bitter end and in the face of anything.



Even solid scientific evidence:lol:


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## Ishah (Jan 21, 2009)

monis said:


> I see where you are coming from but it wasn't exacly the point i was trying to make. Although i didn't enjoy scripture it wasn't the negative experience that contributed to me being an athiest. I was more making the point that i got to know the religion before i rejected it and began to as you said think for myself and developing opinions.
> Nice input.
> Monis


 

Yeh I know what you mean, I meant that the negative experience helped me to decide, not that it was the sole swaying/contributing factor...kinda forgot to state that in my re-written haste lol...
The negative experience wasn't all that turned me against it, it was a mixture of all of it, the bad experience, not being able to choose, the actual religion itself, all the controversy that comes with it and other religions, and the fact that religion in itself is the cause of most of the wars, havoc, destruction and killings/deaths that have gone on to date! The amount of pain, destruction and devastation caused by religions is rediculous esp. considering religion is suppose to be about peace etc... The conflict between the different religions goes against everything they are all about! And hence I don't want to be apart of something that is so hypocritical and controversial etc etc etc... Everything has all fallen apart in them also and all the "leaders" of today's religions are swapping and changing and making up new rules and beliefs etc etc... An example....The pope thinks that it is wrong to use condoms and contraception... but where in the bible does it say that its wrong and sinful to do so (use contrception)? NO WHERE! Condoms and contraception are only a recent "invention"...Even the word "contraception" wasn't even a word back in their time I'd say...

Everything is and has been blown out of the water and nothing is realistic or believable for me anymore... Hence I chose the path of Atheism/Non-religiousness :lol: I steer clear of all that is religion/religious if I can help it...That way I'm not offending anyone for being a certain religion and not theirs and I am safe from it all in a way... Although I spose Atheism and non-religionism can be viewed as a religion of sorts and proove offensive to some...:?

Haha a few new words to ponder in that last paragraph lol


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## waruikazi (Jan 21, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> Even solid scientific evidence:lol:



That's exactly what i mean. I mean take the evidence against the great flood, there is not enough water on Earth to flood the whole world, they (Christians who take the bible literally) don't accept that. I could go on, but then i'm getting off topic.


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## jessb (Jan 21, 2009)

Ishah said:


> An example....The pope thinks that it is wrong to use condoms and contraception... but where in the bible does it say that its wrong and sinful to do so (use contrception)? NO WHERE! Condoms and contraception are only a recent "invention"...Even the word "contraception" wasn't even a word back in their time I'd say...


 
Interestingly, the earliest type of condom dates back to Egyptian times!


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## waruikazi (Jan 21, 2009)

jessb said:


> Interestingly, the earliest type of condom dates back to Egyptian times!



Forms of contraception are timeless. Like Indigenous Aussies used to a pretty red seed to not fall pregnant.


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## monis (Jan 21, 2009)

Ishah said:


> Yeh I know what you mean, I meant that the negative experience helped me to decide, not that it was the sole swaying/contributing factor...kinda forgot to state that in my re-written haste lol...
> The negative experience wasn't all that turned me against it, it was a mixture of all of it, the bad experience, not being able to choose, the actual religion itself, all the controversy that comes with it and other religions, and the fact that religion in itself is the cause of most of the wars, havoc, destruction and killings/deaths that have gone on to date! The amount of pain, destruction and devastation caused by religions is rediculous esp. considering religion is suppose to be about peace etc... The conflict between the different religions goes against everything they are all about! And hence I don't want to be apart of something that is so hypocritical and controversial etc etc etc... Everything has all fallen apart in them also and all the "leaders" of today's religions are swapping and changing and making up new rules and beliefs etc etc... An example....The pope thinks that it is wrong to use condoms and contraception... but where in the bible does it say that its wrong and sinful to do so (use contrception)? NO WHERE! Condoms and contraception are only a recent "invention"...Even the word "contraception" wasn't even a word back in their time I'd say...
> 
> Everything is and has been blown out of the water and nothing is realistic or believable for me anymore... Hence I chose the path of Atheism/Non-religiousness :lol: I steer clear of all that is religion/religious if I can help it...That way I'm not offending anyone for being a certain religion and not theirs and I am safe from it all in a way... Although I spose Atheism and non-religionism can be viewed as a religion of sorts and proove offensive to some...:?
> ...


 Well put. I think the catholic churches issue with condoms is they separate sex from making babies which is what catholics believe is the sole purpose of sex.
Monis


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## Jewly (Jan 21, 2009)

I was born an athiest even though I was adopted by Christian parents. My mother tried to brainwash me all through my childhood with threats of burning in hell for all eternity, etc etc. but it didn't work. 

I have held the same views I have now since I was a tiny child and I will never change my mind. I have good morals, treat others like I would like to be treated and try to live a good life and be kind to others and yet I see my 'religious' family acting far differently than that. I've even had others comment that I live more a Christian life than they do but yet they take every opportunity to try and preach to me. 

What I find ironic is that I can accept their choice in life but they can't accept mine. They have gone behind my back to try and preach to my son, even though I've told them that I believe he has the right to make up his own mind and I don't try and sway him in his decision. I've even had my mother say straight to my face that she believes I am a bad mother for not raising him a christian. 

My greatest fear in life is that when I die, my family will give me a 'religious' funeral which I will absolutely hate and if I can, I will try and set something down in writing to stop them from doing this.


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## Jewly (Jan 21, 2009)

monis said:


> I think the catholic churches issue with condoms is they separate sex from making babies which is what catholics believe is the sole purpose of sex.


 
Obviously all those priests that had sex with young boys don't practice what they preach then.


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## tooninoz (Jan 21, 2009)

Heathen. Prepared to have the devils pitchfork up the cloaca if I got it all wrong. 
Born Consume Die


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## froglet (Jan 21, 2009)

Interesting read

I am an Atheist myself, have no problems with people who are religious as long as they dont force their beliefs on to me


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Jan 21, 2009)

Renagade said:


> anyone see the other day the church roof that fell down killing a hand full of church goers and wounding 50 odd? Mmm... I'm glad that doesnt confuse me... Athiest.[/quot
> ohhh ren you still make me laugh.
> umm na i just be myself,the church peoples dont really like my lifestyle for some reason
> all well


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## Sdaji (Jan 21, 2009)

Under religion on the last national census I put 'Herpetology'.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 21, 2009)

Schlumpe said:


> I belong the the church of Snakeology.



Can I join???? You could start quite a cult here!!!!! LOL


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## Ishah (Jan 21, 2009)

froglet said:


> I am an Atheist myself, have no problems with people who are religious as long as they dont force their beliefs on to me


 

Same!


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## waruikazi (Jan 21, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> BEFORE I START: Lets try to be adults. This is a controversial topic, and obviously we wont all agree. But can we try to keep it clean and not let the thread degenerate? Please? Nobody likes infractions.
> 
> Well, does anyone have a faith? Just curious as to the religious affiliations of APS
> 
> Personally, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.



So you can't celebrate anything? Is that correct?


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## TroopyF (Jan 21, 2009)

Jewly said:


> Obviously all those priests that had sex with young boys don't practice what they preach then.


 
Tooo true.

I'm also Atheist. 
Simply not enough evidence for me.


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## rash (Jan 21, 2009)

Im a Jehovah's witness



> So you can't celebrate anything? Is that correct



sure, we celebrate some things, Jesus death ( because of the meaning of it ), anniversarys...
just nothing that originates with anti-christian customs, missleading views or lies.

(not wanting to start anything here, just what we believe)

Ash


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## WombleHerp (Jan 21, 2009)

I am also a Jehovah's witness yay for us! lol =)


Nat


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## cris (Jan 21, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> That's exactly what i mean. I mean take the evidence against the great flood, there is not enough water on Earth to flood the whole world, they (Christians who take the bible literally) don't accept that. I could go on, but then i'm getting off topic.



God can create water and destroy it at will (as if you wouldnt know that), do as he says or the devil and his evil snakes will win.


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## Adzo (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac.
I lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.


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## RedEyeGirl (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm catholic. But really, i'm not into it. I rather be froglic!


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## HoffOff (Jan 21, 2009)

Going by the songs i listen to, I respect the big horned dude himself 666 \m/_(0_0)_\m/

(Im a atheist)


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## jessb (Jan 21, 2009)

Adzo said:


> I'm a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac.
> I lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.


 
LOL an oldie but a goodie!


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## DanTheMan (Jan 21, 2009)

Sdaji said:


> Under religion on the last national census I put 'Herpetology'.



Legend!
Im doing that next time around, up until now I put Jedi.


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## ravan (Jan 21, 2009)

atheist... 
wooohooo! majority vote! lol


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## Everny (Jan 21, 2009)

Adzo said:


> I'm a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac.
> I lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.





i liked that one...


as a student of science and math, it appears there is something more out there (everything is too perfect) but i sure dont go to a conventional church to preach...
nor am i a supporter or intelligent design theories and related understandings.

me and him/her/it do calculus together!!! 
(not quite, but i was born a daft nerd?!)


I was babtised and brought up attending sunday school, but my parents were never devoutly religious. father brought up by an anglican mother, devout catholic father. my mother was baptised under the uniting church... catholic and anglicna schools, supposedly "satanic" music...
im not quite atheist. but close enough. 
(does anything i said make sense...???)


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## ClareB (Jan 21, 2009)

I think I'm more spiritual than religious if that makes sense. I am Catholic and happy with that but yeh just more spiritual not so rigid with religion.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2009)

Proud member of "The flying spaghetti monster"


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## pete12 (Jan 21, 2009)

i believe in power rangerism


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## English (Jan 21, 2009)

funny thing is.. nothing in this thread is really educationally.. it is just bashing and cliche..

i don't think anyone really knows who or what they are.. that why we keep searching for something, why we surround ourselves with items that we own, etc.. we all need a sense of worth and purpose.. yet none of that is displayed.. it is so easy to say we are this or that.. this did that, or this did this.. stop, step back and ask what does it all mean to you.. it actually ain't that bad.

pandora / devils advocate?

same same.. do you need to belong.. live and let live as it is all too short to label yourself.. what are you fighting against and how the hell do you know what 'it' does..

(puts down beer)


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## HoffOff (Jan 21, 2009)

Religion is this: People telling everybody how badass there imagineary freind is.


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## cooper123 (Jan 21, 2009)

wizard, all hail Gandalf and Dumbaldoor 

???? for all the Christians (not criticism legit question) arnt snakes ment to be evil.

and why would u waist ur time being one now when the bible says you just gotta say sorry and you are forgiven.


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## Fruitbat (Jan 21, 2009)

Fractal


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## Sarah24 (Jan 21, 2009)

hmmm..atheist or agnostic...im kinda both..lol


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## cris (Jan 21, 2009)

cooper123 said:


> ???? for all the Christians (not criticism legit question) arnt snakes ment to be evil.



No its actually the legged creatures(possibly Varanid like) they evolved from err im mean God changed them from, that were the evil agents of the devil. After tasting God's Wrath he stole their legs(possibly brutally, however no witness are alive conveniently) im sure they became reformed Jews who later became Christians after the Jesus Thingy( then again maybe after such cruel treatment they stuck with the devil, but who knows?). The fact that these evil legged reptiles are still around is reason to believe that the Devil may still be powerful.


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## Barno111 (Jan 21, 2009)

Ive been baptised and been excepted into the anglican church becuase my grandparents insisted i was! But im not a believer! But every person to themselves! i just dont believe the storys of it! It just sounds like a load of [email protected]#P. Anyway as i have said every person to themself and i dont take the religion of people and hold it against them! everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want!


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Pythonking said:


> Wheres Satanism?!?!? no religion here but when someone can turn a cup of water into beer by looking at it I may consider converting




Is this close enough?

John 2:3-11



> When the wine ran short the mother of Jesus said to him: “They have no wine.” But Jesus said to her: “What have I to do with you, woman? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to those ministering: “Whatever he tells YOU, do.” As it was, there were six stone water jars sitting there as required by the purification rules of the Jews, each able to hold two or three liquid measures. Jesus said to them: “Fill the water jars with water.” And they filled them to the brim. And he said to them: “Draw some out now and take it to the director of the feast.” So they took it. When, now, the director of the feast tasted the water that had been turned into wine but did not know what its source was, although those ministering who had drawn out the water knew, the director of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him: “Every other man puts out the fine wine first, and when people are intoxicated, the inferior. You have reserved the fine wine until now.” Jesus performed this in Ca´na of Gal´i·lee as [the] beginning of his signs, and he made his glory manifest; and his disciples put their faith in him


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## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Is this close enough?
> 
> John 2:3-11



Is it just me because I'm extremely tired, or does that make absolutley no sense?


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> Is it just me because I'm extremely tired, or does that make absolutley no sense?




It's Jesus' first miracle on Earth. He was at a party, the wine ran out, so he asked them to bring him water and he turned it into wine. Not just any wine, but top quality stuff.


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## miley_take (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm a christian, I don't push my belief onto anyone who doesn't want it, and am not learned enough to get into arguments :lol:

In front of me and my friends, one of my good friends father (very strict and odd "christians") told my father "if my kids kept snakes I'd think there was something wrong" (meanwhile his son was handling one of my bredli!!!)

I was horrified and deeply offended for myself and my father....this guy then went on to quote numerous things about god, snakes, enemies and evil etc

It's people like this who give religion's bad names with there "take" on the bible etc...makes me mad


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## waruikazi (Jan 22, 2009)

miley_take said:


> I'm a christian, I don't push my belief onto anyone who doesn't want it, and am not learned enough to get into arguments :lol:
> 
> In front of me and my friends, one of my good friends father (very strict and odd "christians") told my father "if my kids kept snakes I'd think there was something wrong" (meanwhile his son was handling one of my bredli!!!)
> 
> ...



I've been meaning to read the bible for a little while now (and the Qu'ran) just for these kinds of reasons. I think i might start tomorrow.


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## Ishah (Jan 22, 2009)

snakeman112 said:


> Religion is this: People telling everybody how badass there imagineary freind is.


 
:lol::lol::lolMSL! That is well said, funny, and yet, SO true! Love your work!


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## lemonz (Jan 22, 2009)

In the old versions of the bible, it was a serpent that encouraged eden to eat the 'friut, nbot a snake. myself being a christian, i would like someone to point out to me where in the bible it says" do not have snakesas pets, they are evil" because last time i checked, it didnt say it. also, a religion " jedi" whats that about? considering it came from a movie, i dont know how some people take it serisously, athough some of you are joking

I have nothing against athiests, and i am not a dorr knocker, nor a bible basher. i will encourage people to be better people, and if they decide to become a christian, thats there decision. i believe everyones inerpretation of religion is different. That is where the arguments come into play.

Thats all i have to say,

Regards

Harley


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## Ishah (Jan 22, 2009)

lemonz said:


> a serpent that encouraged eden to eat the 'friut, nbot a snake. i would like someone to point out to me where in the bible it says" do not have snakesas pets, they are evil" because last time i checked, it didnt say it.


 
.....And the difference is.....??? Personally I feel they are much the same really... except serpent is more used for mythological descriptions of snakes and snake-like things/creatures; and snakes are...well...snakes....

Someone describe to me the difference please!


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## mebebrian (Jan 22, 2009)

Religion, taught well can be a good guide to those needing advice on how to live your life. I myself have no time for the "my imaginary friend is better than your's" argument. My folks never had me baptised, figured i could chose for my self when i was old enough to decide. And after seeing the death and destruction religion has caused these past 2000 odd years. I think i'll just stay out of it and live my life my way, I reckon i've got a pretty fair on how to live a good life. 

But seriously, i thought catholics were against gambling and excesive drinking? I got 2 catholic clubs near me and they sell the cheapest alcohol for miles and the amount of poker machines inside them boggles the mind! Where is the logic in that? 

And what the hell is the go with knocking on my door at 10am!!!!!!? Yes you know who you are! I work nights dude! Yes thats right some people do work while you sleep! Do you people honestly think i dont know you guys exist? in this age of information? or do you really think that maybe your other buddies who woke me up last year missed me? i mean c'mon! 
STOP KNOCKING ON MY DOOR!!!! IF I WANTED TO CHOOSE GOD I"D COME SEE YOU!!!

wow, that feels better....


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## Renagade (Jan 22, 2009)

i'm good friends with a relly cool anglican priest. he is the first one to say that it is a moral guide.


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## Jewly (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> It's Jesus' first miracle on Earth. He was at a party, the wine ran out, so he asked them to bring him water and he turned it into wine. Not just any wine, but top quality stuff.


 

Christian's call that a miracle but I think it sounds more like witchcraft myself and the funny thing is, my Christian mother wouldn't even let my son watch Harry Potter at her place.

From everything I've witnessed in my life most Christian's are a bunch of hypocrites.

Here's a question for you. If God is such a forgiving God, then why couldn't he forgive Adam and Eve for eating an apple? 

I asked my priest this when I was a young child and I got dragged out of Sunday School by the collar for it but then maybe he also didn't like me saying to him..'If Adam and Eve had been aboriginal then they would have eaten the snake and not the apple'...lol


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## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

I bet heaven doesn't have snakes.
What would we do? We couldn't go herping. So in reality, heaven is hell....


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## redbellybite (Jan 22, 2009)

Religion is a belief so many interpret their own way ...over all they believe in the same thing but each governs their own rules and regulations ....they are no different to gangs ,they believe that their gang is right ,they fight with other gangs over turf and business deals , they wear different patches,but overall they still have the same beliefs but want it protested in their own way ..(which they claim is the right way)....GOD AND JESUS ARE LIKE MIXED LOLLIES everyone may get something different but your common ground is its still a LOLLY if only you could see it that way


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## Bax155 (Jan 22, 2009)

Definatly atheist, religion is the cause of most wars, although I love my war movies and served in the army reserves once upon a time. I believe there was a guy named Jesus, he was a carpenter just like my dad!!!


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## Veredus (Jan 22, 2009)

lemonz said:


> also, a religion " jedi" whats that about? considering it came from a movie, i dont know how some people take it serisously, athough some of you are joking


 
If a person agrees with the ideals presented by a particular group of people in a story what is your problem with them basing their lifestyle around it. In any case you are no better, your religion comes from an outdated book full of fanciful stories that lack any credibility. Given the choice of basing my life on moral ideas presented by a modern writer with an understanding of modern morals or the ideas of hate-mongering ancient works of delusional hypocrites I would take the modern any day. 

I can't understand the persistent belief in paranoid ancient myths in the face of so much evidence to the contrary of its validity.


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## Jay84 (Jan 22, 2009)

I was bought up a *Jehovah's Witness*. Now though...... well, i am living a lifestyle not accepted by the bible. In a way i am glad i had that upbringing. Very strict morals which i have carried with me. But one thing that i could never understand is........

I am gay, i have known i was diff since i was in primary school. Being bought up a Jehovah's Witness i learned this was wrong. i cant remember the scripture now but goes along the lines of ''men who sleep with men will not inherit my kingdom''. Now i truly believe i was born the way i am, it is not a choice. Why would i choose to be ostracized and loose my friends?!?! So growing up was a very hard time for myself, knowing i am one thing but learning it is evil? i suffered depression, i tried to fight it for years. i didnt want to live a double life. So i left. now why would i be born this way? and have to go through all this. i just dont understand. The bible also says something along the lines of ''Jehovah will not throw anything at you that you can not handle''. how can i handle this situation?

needless to say, at the moment i follow no religion. I live my life still by the morals and values i was bought up with, apart from the fact i have a 'partner'.

please dont take my comments or questions as apostatizing. i am not in any way shunning Jehovah's Witnesses or any other religion.


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## waruikazi (Jan 22, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> I am gay, i have known i was diff since i was in primary school. Being bought up a Jehovah's Witness i learned this was wrong. i cant remember the scripture now but goes along the lines of ''men who sleep with men will not inherit my kingdom''. Now i truly believe i was born the way i am, it is not a choice. Why would i choose to be ostracized and loose my friends?!?! So growing up was a very hard time for myself, knowing i am one thing but learning it is evil? i suffered depression, i tried to fight it for years. i didnt want to live a double life. So i left. now why would i be born this way? and have to go through all this. i just dont understand. The bible also says something along the lines of ''Jehovah will not throw anything at you that you can not handle''. how can i handle this situation?



But doesn't the bible also say that if you repent and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be forgiven? 

This is one point i don't understand about Christianity, are there unforgivable sins?


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## redbellybite (Jan 22, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> I was bought up a *Jehovah's Witness*. Now though...... well, i am living a lifestyle not accepted by the bible. In a way i am glad i had that upbringing. Very strict morals which i have carried with me. But one thing that i could never understand is........
> 
> I am gay, i have known i was diff since i was in primary school. Being bought up a Jehovah's Witness i learned this was wrong. i cant remember the scripture now but goes along the lines of ''men who sleep with men will not inherit my kingdom''. Now i truly believe i was born the way i am, it is not a choice. Why would i choose to be ostracized and loose my friends?!?! So growing up was a very hard time for myself, knowing i am one thing but learning it is evil? i suffered depression, i tried to fight it for years. i didnt want to live a double life. So i left. now why would i be born this way? and have to go through all this. i just dont understand. The bible also says something along the lines of ''Jehovah will not throw anything at you that you can not handle''. how can i handle this situation?
> 
> ...


 according to the JOEYS that come and visit ..when I told them about my son being GAY ..their response was it was something that I fed him as a child that turned him gay and there is a doctor in TOOWOOMBA (qld) that has oral drops that can fix GAYNESS ..I was like gob smacked ,pointed out the comment you made about being given a hard time and he dated girls and knew it wasnt him ..but they stuck with their comments and when I asked why my other 3 hadnt turned gay ,as they were fed the same food ,they replied "because he wants to stay Gay thats why he hasnt changed back ,and your other 3 must have been stronger in fighting against the food " ......:shock:.....so I laugh at it now and can fully understand why some people offer JOEYS "special cookies" with a cuppa :lol::lol:


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## sarah_m (Jan 22, 2009)

cooper123 said:


> wizard, all hail Gandalf and Dumbaldoor
> 
> ???? for all the Christians (not criticism legit question) arnt snakes ment to be evil.
> 
> and why would u waist ur time being one now when the bible says you just gotta say sorry and you are forgiven.


The bible says that faith without works is dead.
Meaning there is more involved in forgivness than just saying sorry.
It means to show by your actions that you really are sorry and want to do what god asks of us. Forgivness is not automatic.
That is part of the reason we go from door to door, in the bible god asks us to do this.

The bible doesnt say snakes are evil, it says that the devil used a snake like a puppet to deceive Eve. The devil is evil, the snake is not.


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## Jay84 (Jan 22, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> But doesn't the bible also say that if you repent and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be forgiven?
> 
> This is one point i don't understand about Christianity, are there unforgivable sins?



It does yes. that would mean me suppressing my feelings and living in accordance with the bible fully. Not just living this lifestyle and saying sorry. To be truly sorry you would stop doing whatever it is that is bad or offensive (not just in religion). so yes, if you are truly sorry then it is said you will be forgiven.



redbellybite said:


> according to the JOEYS that come and visit ..when I told them about my son being GAY ..their response was it was something that I fed him as a child that turned him gay and there is a doctor in TOOWOOMBA (qld) that has oral drops that can fix GAYNESS ..I was like gob smacked ,pointed out the comment you made about being given a hard time and he dated girls and knew it wasnt him ..but they stuck with their comments and when I asked why my other 3 hadnt turned gay ,as they were fed the same food ,they replied "because he wants to stay Gay thats why he hasnt changed back ,and your other 3 must have been stronger in fighting against the food " ......:shock:.....so I laugh at it now and can fully understand why some people offer JOEYS "special cookies" with a cuppa :lol::lol:



lol... Sorry i couldnt help laughing. i really cant see anyone offering or recommending a doctor with 'gay reversal' drops! lol. But yes, my sister isnt gay, we were bought up the same, it doesnt make any difference what religion you are bought up in, it does not define your sexuality. I know a few people bought up asJehovah's Witnesses who are gay. i also know alot of muslims and Buddists etc etc. So it clearly isnt in the upbringing. like you say ''what about your other kids''.


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## W.T.BUY (Jan 22, 2009)

what i don't get is why the bible does not talk about dinosaurs and early forms of life. What did god just make a bunch of creatures and just blow them up. How come the bible just skips millions of years just straight to the point of humans. What I Also don't get is how Adam and Eve were "perfect" and yet they still were deceived by a talking snake. 
100% No Religion for me although i do believe that they only good thing they do is teach good morals. But a few good morals are worth wars and millions of lives.


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## waruikazi (Jan 22, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> It does yes. that would mean me suppressing my feelings and living in accordance with the bible fully. Not just living this lifestyle and saying sorry. To be truly sorry you would stop doing whatever it is that is bad or offensive (not just in religion). so yes, if you are truly sorry then it is said you will be forgiven.



BUT! The bible also says that if you have a 'fantasy' about someone who is not your wife/husband you are an adulterer, if you have lied you're a lier etc etc. These are things that we do without thinking and do over and over, but as long as we repent we'll be ok I don't see why God would have a different view on sexuality.


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## sarah_m (Jan 22, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> BUT! The bible also says that if you have a 'fantasy' about someone who is not your wife/husband you are an adulterer, if you have lied you're a lier etc etc. These are things that we do without thinking and do over and over, but as long as we repent we'll be ok I don't see why God would have a different view on sexuality.


But it is proving by a change in wrong actions that shows we are truly repentant, not just saying i'm sorry and doing the same over again


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## Chris1 (Jan 22, 2009)

Schlumpe said:


> I belong the the church of Snakeology.



lol, i'm joining that one too!


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## waruikazi (Jan 22, 2009)

sarah_m said:


> But it is proving by a change in wrong actions that shows we are truly repentant, not just saying i'm sorry and doing the same over again



But i can guarantee you that you will lust and you will lie (For example) Sunday afternoon, or Monday at the latest, right after you leave Church.


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## Everny (Jan 22, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> according to the JOEYS that come and visit ..when I told them about my son being GAY ..their response was it was something that I fed him as a child that turned him gay and there is a doctor in TOOWOOMBA (qld) that has oral drops that can fix GAYNESS ..I was like gob smacked ,pointed out the comment you made about being given a hard time and he dated girls and knew it wasnt him ..but they stuck with their comments and when I asked why my other 3 hadnt turned gay ,as they were fed the same food ,they replied "because he wants to stay Gay thats why he hasnt changed back ,and your other 3 must have been stronger in fighting against the food " ......:shock:.....so I laugh at it now and can fully understand why some people offer JOEYS "special cookies" with a cuppa :lol::lol:









hilarious, to an extent. but then you are just...

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:


as a side note:
my best mate is an ex-Jho.... and his experiences have made him completely anti-religious and anti-celebration full stop. This year he officially has his 4th birthday ever. 
Thats not to say the the religion is at all bad, because people can do good things within their religion, but it wasnt the religion for him....


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## megrim (Jan 22, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> I was bought up a *Jehovah's Witness*. Now though...... well, i am living a lifestyle not accepted by the bible. In a way i am glad i had that upbringing. Very strict morals which i have carried with me. But one thing that i could never understand is........
> 
> I am gay, i have known i was diff since i was in primary school. Being bought up a Jehovah's Witness i learned this was wrong. i cant remember the scripture now but goes along the lines of ''men who sleep with men will not inherit my kingdom''. Now i truly believe i was born the way i am, it is not a choice. Why would i choose to be ostracized and loose my friends?!?! So growing up was a very hard time for myself, knowing i am one thing but learning it is evil? i suffered depression, i tried to fight it for years. i didnt want to live a double life. So i left. now why would i be born this way? and have to go through all this. i just dont understand. The bible also says something along the lines of ''Jehovah will not throw anything at you that you can not handle''. how can i handle this situation?
> 
> ...



I feel for ya buddy. I'm gay also, but I was lucky enough to grow up in Iceland, where on paper everyone is Lutheran, but religion, (other than the old ways, sort of a rag tag paganism/polytheistic superstition) simply never took much hold. Homosexuality was never a taboo issue in viking culture, so I don't really think scandinavia should be praised for it's 'progressive' attitudes, seeing as there weren't really any problems with it in the first place.

My partner of 5 years however, grew up in outback QLD, and had a very rough time of it. The Judeo-Christian morals, bent through a lense of insular clannishness can create some truley oppressive environments, where ANY deviation from the norm is 'sinful'. Levels of suicide and drug abuse in this country among it's young gay folk are astounding. Especially in rural areas where they often lack a support network.

In saying all this, I do believe it's only a matter of time. The world now is a very different place to 60 years ago, and in 60 years time I hope it'll be a tad more loving, and a little less 'religious'.


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## sarah_m (Jan 22, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> But i can guarantee you that you will lust and you will lie (For example) Sunday afternoon, or Monday at the latest, right after you leave Church.


i'm not saying there is no room for mistakes. We are all human, no one is going to get everything right 100% of the time.
Thats not what God asks for, he is not unreasonable so as to expect the impossible from us.
What he asks is that we try our best to live the way he asks. Not just doing as we please and thinking "she'll be right... God woll forgive me"


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## NotoriouS (Jan 22, 2009)

It's interesting to see how vocal the people who are not religious are on this matter compared to the people who are religious. Based on the above comments everyone seems to need to explain/justify why they do not believe in God whilst at the same time, either knowingly or unknowingly, insulting other people's beliefs.

Note: I do not feel insulted by anyones comments - I find them interesting/amusing


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## jessb (Jan 22, 2009)

How lovely to see that this thread has made it to 10 pages with no nastiness or name calling, just intelligent debate and maturely voiced opinions!

NB there are a few Christan sects in the Deep South of the USA who believe that free-handling venemous snakes is proof of God's love for them (or something...) so snakes aren't all bad to Christians!


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## Jay84 (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> It's interesting to see how vocal the people who are not religious are on this matter compared to the people who are religious. Based on the above comments everyone seems to need to explain/justify why they do not believe in God whilst at the same time, either knowingly or unknowingly, insulting other people's beliefs.)



I thought that all the comments made so far have been very diplomatic, apart from the jovial comments which are meant just purely as a joke ie. the reptile religions lol i havnt read anything that could be seen as insulting?


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## -Matt- (Jan 22, 2009)

W.T.BUY said:


> what i don't get is why the bible does not talk about dinosaurs and early forms of life. What did god just make a bunch of creatures and just blow them up. How come the bible just skips millions of years just straight to the point of humans. What I Also don't get is how Adam and Eve were "perfect" and yet they still were deceived by a talking snake.
> 100% No Religion for me although i do believe that they only good thing they do is teach good morals. But a few good morals are worth wars and millions of lives.


 
This is because according to the bible dinosaurs and all life before humans (adam & eve) never did actually exist, even though we have more than enough proof to show that they did. God is believed to have created the earth and everything on it in 7 days and nothing has changed since then, evolution prooves this wrong but religious types still refuse to believe this.

Im an Athiest. However I have read the bible out of pure curiosity, it doesnt make a great deal of sense and constantly condradicts itself...


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## Australis (Jan 22, 2009)

jessb said:


> NB there are a few Christan sects in the Deep South of the USA who believe that free-handling venemous snakes is proof of God's love for them (or something...) so snakes aren't all bad to Christians!



They still consider the snakes evil though don't they .. the handling
of them a kind of proof of gods protection against evil, given to the
true believers or something along those lines?

I think the most positive use of snakes is within the creation-myths
of many old cultures, like the Australian Aboriginals dream time
stories etc.. 



Mattsnake said:


> This is because according to the bible dinosaurs and all life before humans (adam & eve) never did actually exist, even though we have more than enough proof to show that they did. God is believed to have created the earth and everything on it in 7 days and nothing has changed since then, evolution prooves this wrong but religious types still refuse to believe this.
> 
> Im an Athiest. However I have read the bible out of pure curiosity, it doesnt make a great deal of sense and constantly condradicts itself...



You can never win an argument on this basis unfortunately, ive tried a few times, when ever a Jovo would
knock on my door i would let them in for a chat, they dodge any argument you put them about contradictions
with the "holy texts" with the.. "if gods word appears to contradict itself, its because of mans incorrect 
interpretations..


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## Jay84 (Jan 22, 2009)

The bible doesnt say they never existed? where does it say that?

Also, in reference to the '7 days' , it is not 7 literal human days. God/Jehovah is eternal, he wasnt refering to 24/7 ! lol


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## Australis (Jan 22, 2009)

Also, worth adding... the Vatican has now essentially excepted Evolution as fact. ^_^

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9913712/


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## jessb (Jan 22, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> The bible doesnt say they never existed? where does it say that?
> 
> Also, in reference to the '7 days' , it is not 7 literal human days. God/Jehovah is eternal, he wasnt refering to 24/7 ! lol


 
The whole point is that the bible _doesn't_ mention dinosaurs at all. I think the reference is to fundamentalist Christians who literally believe that the world _was_ created in 7 days and that it is only about 4,000 years old. They believe that dinosaurs never existed, that evolution is a lie and that fossils have been placed in the ground as God's test to those who question any of the dogma...


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## cris (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> It's interesting to see how vocal the people who are not religious are on this matter compared to the people who are religious. Based on the above comments everyone seems to need to explain/justify why they do not believe in God whilst at the same time, either knowingly or unknowingly, insulting other people's beliefs.



If they are insulted by the truth and logical arguement that disproves their superstitions then i guess that is bad luck. Athiests have real evidence to back their claims while religious ppl dont. If you learn enough about biology and religion and understand it, i cant see how its possible to be religious. When you consider how many millions of differant beliefs humans would have conjured up over the time humans have been around your chance of getting the right one is extremely close to 0(making a false assumption one actually is correct). From a biological point of view we are just another animal, its quite clear that we evolved yet some are still ignorant enough not to believe it (well maybe they are doing a backflip on that too now?).


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## caustichumor (Jan 22, 2009)

I am an Athiest, I don't argue my beleifs (or lack of beleifs) to others who follow a religion. As long as people are happy and not strapping themselves with explosives then good for you....


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## Veredus (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> It's interesting to see how vocal the people who are not religious are on this matter compared to the people who are religious. Based on the above comments everyone seems to need to explain/justify why they do not believe in God whilst at the same time, either knowingly or unknowingly, insulting other people's beliefs.
> 
> Note: I do not feel insulted by anyones comments - I find them interesting/amusing


In this age of reason and evidence religious beliefs deserve no better treatment than was given to science by the religious in the past. At least we are not cutting out your eyes....




Jay84 said:


> The bible doesnt say they never existed? where does it say that?
> 
> Also, in reference to the '7 days' , it is not 7 literal human days. God/Jehovah is eternal, he wasnt refering to 24/7 ! lol


 
Then way use the term days? You cannot simply interpret the bible to suit yourself. This is a book written by primitive superstitious minds many years ago and is certainly intended as a literal text. When these men(yes it was men, not a god) wrote that their deity created the earth in 7 days they certainly meant literally 7 lots of 24 hours, undoubtedly they believed this would make their god seem mighty indeed, to have created everything in only 6 days and only rest for one.

Also, you can't possibly refer to our god as the only with any credibility, if you acknowledge the existence of one supernatural creator being then you must acknoledge them all. So Jehova is up there partying in Asgard with Thor, Pan and Shiva.


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## wicca4life7 (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm Wiccan as the name suggests.


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## KaneMortlock (Jan 22, 2009)

I was an agnostic, the only intelligent, scientific position to take in the absence of evidence/data one way or the other. When you have not experienced anything to prove or disprove God's existence or encountered anyone else who has, "I don't know" seems to me the only logical, rational position to take. For all you people who call yourselves atheists out there, who are not only saying, "I don't know" but have lept to the conclusion "There is nothing," what evidence/data do you base that attitude upon? If you have experienced no evidence that disproves God's existence, how would you know? A lack of data (a lack of evidence that God exists) is not sufficient to draw the conclusion that He does not exist. Believe it or not, if God does exist, letting you in on it may not be on the top of His to do list.

So I think agnosticism in the absence of any evidence is the intelligent position, atheism is a presumption without sufficient evidence to support it.

Now, I said I was an agnostic.

In 1998, over the Port Hacking river south of Sydney, I heard a powerful voice come down out of heaven that sounded like a choir singing in harmony with many different parts of different pitches, but I think it came from a single being. This voice that came down out of heaven sounding like a choir singing asked one question:

"Who would offend the Son?"

I had no religious upbringing of any kind up to this point in my life, but I heard "the Son" and immediately thought of Jesus Christ because the definite article was used. "Who would offend "THE" Son" was said, not "Who would offend "A" Son". If the angel had of used the indefinite article and said "... a Son" I may even have gone on to thinking it meant me. But anyway, "...THE Son" meant Christ to me and I immediately went to my university book shop and bought a bible and started reading (I did not own one at the time).

I deferred from my law degree and started reading the bible a book per day and an amazing life began to unfold for me whereby a revelation/miracle/vision would occur and then shortly afterwards I would read the passage of scripture that explained what just happened. The bible has been brought to life before my eyes. I have seen the truth of the things written in it with my own eyes. For example, almost the first thing that occurred was an amazing rainbow appeared right outside my window over the Port Hacking river one day. It was centred exactly on my parents house but more important was the astounding brightness of this rainbow. It was like neon, the colour was like a solid entity, I have never seen anything like it before or afterwards. It was so bright that my response was to immediately drop what I was doing in awe and grab a camera and start to take photos of the rainbow just because of how beautiful it was. The pictures I took of this rainbow are impressive, but don't do the reality of the brightness of this rainbow justice. Not long after I saw this I read Genesis 9:8-17 which says:

"And God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him saying, "And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do put my rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud and I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the rainbow shall be in the cloud and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
And God said to Noah, this is the sign of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth."

I realise that some people will single out that one event as "something that occurs naturally" blah, not realising how much I cannot write here that has occurred. I have seen the most unlikely miracles recorded in the bible demonstrated to me to prove them true. As I was reading and these revelations were occurring daily I was convicted by the fear of a God so great and assured of the need to obey his Son Jesus Christ because you believe His promises to escape judgement day and live for all eternity.

I went to "Christian ministers" with a desire to talk about these things but quickly discovered that what those who called themselves "Christian ministers" teach as "Christianity" today did not accord with my own understanding given by revelation at all. And the amazing thing was that after not much more than 6 months worth of these revelatory events and me reading the bible, I could win arguments with these ministers using the bible. Some of these ministers had been ministers for years and studied the bible and been taught man's teachings diligently, etc., etc. and yet when I was debating with them, their arguments against the necessity of obeying Christ to be saved by Him could not stand before the scriptures I could recite to them.

An event that occurred in Israel, in the mountains of Jerusalem in about June of the year 2000 is representative. I travelled to Israel in January 2000 looking for people who were open minded enough and/or faithful enough to believe that the things I was saying were happening to me were possible. The official teaching of Christianity there in protestant circles was as bad as anywhere and at this particular time I went and visited a "church" that called itself charasmatic. Now, I didn't have any knowledge of the charasmatic "church" at this time, but I was apalled at what I witnessed occurring at this "business".

One day there, (I was living in a tent in the backyard), I noticed a messianic jewish man wearing his skullcap as religious jews do and it stood out to me because I had just been reading 1 Corinthians 11:3-4

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying having his head covered dishonours his head."

Now this messianic jewish man was attending these "pray meetings" with his skullcap on (covering his head) and I was worried that this was dishonouring Christ. So I humbly went up to the man this day outside the building and read 1 Corinthians 11 with him and humbly asked him if he thought he should wear his skullcap while he prayed. I was a very shy 23 year old at the time who was quite bashful about what had happened to me because I was intelligent enough to know full well what it made many people think of me. But even stated humbly, this man ignored what I said to him and just walked away from me into the building where the "prayer meeting" was starting. I walked inside after him into an interior room that had no access to the outside (no windows, etc.) and the prayer meeting started. Immediately an amazing thing happened. This man I had showed the scripture to was standing across the room from me, about 8 feet away. Suddenly his skullcap flew off his head and across the room and landed at my feet! The man quickly came over, bowed down at my feet and picked his skullcap up off the floor ... but put it back on his head (and clipped it back onto his hair I noticed too, so I presume it was clipped originally too) and then walked away, still with it on his head and continued what he was doing as though nothing had happened? I couldn't believe this man just continued as though nothing had happened! I was standing there astounded wondering how many other times in the man's life his skullcap had impersonated a UFO for no apparent reason. There was no wind, there was no pressure change. It was an internal room with no windows, no one opened a door. The skullcap flew with no reason to do so at all! The fact that it did so straight after I showed him the scripture surely should have been enough for anyone to realise in his circumstances that something weird had just happened? But this miraculous sign was lost on this man. It was not lost on me and such miracles have occurred a number of times over the past decade to testify to the truth of my teaching.

I ended up being kicked out of this "church" for standing up for the truth of Christ's words. A preacher at the front was preaching a very popular false doctrine which I didn't know much about then, but that I would come to know well as it is taught nearly everywhere as "Christianity" when it is not. What I now know as the substitionary atonement doctrine was being preached in all its disobedience allowing falsehood from the front of the room. I was sitting in a large group of people hearing this rubbish, yet too timid at this stage to stand up and object to what I was hearing. Finally the preacher said some things that directly contradicted Christ's words and this motivated me into action. The preacher said, "You don't have to do anything. You don't have to try. Christ's done it all. Christ's sacrifice is for your sins and you don't have to do anything. You don't have to try."

I recalled Luke 13:23-28

"Then said one unto him [Jesus], "Lord, are there few that be saved?"
And He said unto them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and has shut the door and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us", and he shall answer and say to you, "I do not know you. Where do you come from?"
Then shall you begin to say, "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and you have taught in our streets." But He shall say, "I tell you I know nothing of you, or from whence you come. Depart from me all of you, you and your wicked ways!" There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out."

The important point here being that Christ advises to "strive", "strain every nerve", "struggle on", "fight", "do your utmost", "make every effort" to enter the kingdom of heaven (various translations). This preacher said, and I quote, "You don't have to try". This direct contradiction that would destroy peoples' souls if listened to spurred me into action. I stood up, very nervous, and humbly and apologetically said, "Excuse me, I'm sorry for interrupting, but what you just said directly contradicts Christ. You just said we don't have to try, but Christ advises us to make every effort, to strive, and warns us to do so because many people will not make it to the Kingdom of Heaven." The owner of the establishment stood straight up and incorrectly said, "No she didn't." I went to answer her "Yes she did, it says right here ..." and intended to read the scripture, but she said in a very loud and commanding voice over the top of me, "Sit down!" - and at this very early stage of what hapened to me, being a bashful 23 year old who was still embarassed at the things that had happened to him because telling people about them made people consider him an idiot or a liar, I did what this woman commanded and sat down.

That afternoon I sought out this woman and the preacher and an elder as I wanted to read the bible with them and humbly show them how what I said was correct. These people were not interested in what Christ said, though. The woman who owned the establishment went and got my backpack and because she couldn't carry it, she dragged it outside into the street and threw it out. She then came and told me to leave. I protested that I just wanted to read the bible with them, but she was in a complete rage, her face screwed up with anger. And so I left and walked down Ha'Navim street to the King Faisal hostel and booked a room for the night.

The next morning, as I awoke, something that had never happened to me before happened. As I awoke, right in the moment of gaining full consciousness I was stopped from the last part of waking and held at a level of consciousness I have never been at before or since. I was not asleep, but I was not full alert either. A figure appeared to me made of pure light. This figure was obviously Jesus Christ. Jesus, made of light, moved a sword of light he was holding to the top of one of my shoulders and then moved it over my head and rested it onto my other shoulder, like a King knighting one of his vassals. The exact moment this finished, I was released into full consciousness, sitting upright. I then got up, got dressed and walked to the internet room at this hostel. As I opened the door to enter, a woman was exiting at the same moment. I opened the door and she was right there, in front of me. Her eyes went blank and she moved her arm slowly to the top of one of my shoulders and then over my head to rest upon my other shoulder, in an exact replication of what Christ had just done! As soon as she had finished this "knighting" motion, her eyes snapped back to consciousness and she pushed past me as though nothing had happened.

Christ had rewarded me for standing up for the fact you must make every effort to obey his teachings to enter the kingdom of heaven.

So many other things have happened over the past decade that I don't begin to have space to tell you. But I will try to say a couple of things:

1. God exists. Jesus exists and is the Son of God. I have seen Christ alive a number of times with my own eyes and have heard His voice with my own ears. I am a witness to Christ's resurrection and to the fact that another, eternal life exists after this life.

2. Current Christian teaching is universally inaccurate in my experience to date. If you have been taught that believing "Christ died for you" is Christianity, then you have been taught falsely. Faith in Christ is faith in His words, not faith in His death. At this stage, I have had some experience with this false, atonement teaching and think I have a fair idea what you have been taught. Enough to presume to say, "No, I'm not preaching a "works-based" salvation, and what's more, you don't understand what Paul meant by the word "ergon" (in Greek) in that passage." There are many things you do not understand rightly if you have been taught this. But if you are honest and diligent and prepared to search the scriptures diligently to see if what I say is true, message me and God willing I'll happily read some bible with you and we'll see what you think of what you have been taught then. Is it possible that man has it wrong? Can men make mistakes? If you can countenance the possiblity that what you have been taught could be wrong, that it is possible, then message me. Don't bother if you just want to spout out the usual errors taught by this teaching. I've encountered them. I've disproved them scripturally. I'm aware of them.

3. To the JWs, In Egypt it was confirmed to me that I'm a member of the 144 000 from the tribe of Dan. A couple of your members have knocked on my door over the years, (which for everyone's value is a pretty comic scene when a JW or "Mormon" knocks on my door ... they don't know what they are getting into to! lol), they started by trying to show me where other brands of Christianity were wrong, and I agreed with them. But when I showed the JWs where they were wrong, for this knowledge, they had no ears. Is it a great thing to be able to point out the mistakes of others but not to recognise your own? I had a long discussion with an elder man and publicly he would not admit his error while privately he said things to me like, "I cannot advance past my "church"," indicating that he recognised privately what I said was correct but was not willing to put Christ before the JWs. This is a big mistake. Your loyalty must always be to Christ first and if you find Christ and JW teaching does not accord, you must choose Christ, not your brand.

4. To everyone who has seen nothing and heard nothing and does not know whether God exists or not: I was in that position once. All I can do is tell you what I have seen and heard. God really does exist. The bible really is true. I realise how unlikely/implausible that may sound to some, but it really is true. Oh, for those who will attack the messenger and play the man, not the ball: A number of revelations that have happened to me happened in front of other people as well. So it is not only my eyes and ears and mind you are relying on. A number of people have seen and heard the same miraculous thing at once, so you'll have to do a little better than an imperceptive "you're a nutter." It would take being interested enough to get to know me to realise that I'm not. The other ploy, "You're a liar"? Firstly, I have never accepted a cent from anyone in over a decade on account of what has happened to me (can any two bit "minster" say the same who wrongly refrains from working?). I come from a rich family, I don't need and won't accept any money. I've got degrees in law, arts and psychology and am currently on scholarship as a PhD candidate at university, so I make my own living, thank you very much. So there goes the con-job theory.

So what you are left with is a man who seems reasonable and competent and who is obviously honest to a fault who says and is obviously convinced he has seen enough evidence of God and Christ's existence to live a life totally aimed at the next life.

This post has mainly been testimony, not teaching, I'm saving any teaching of the truth for those who are serious and message me, but I will say generally to all that there will be a day where Jesus Christ judges everyone one on what they have done in this life. Many will go to a place of punishment. Few will go to a place described as paradise. If you want to escape eternal punishment and live forever as a child of God:

1. Believe/obey Christ's words
2. Stop trying to direct your own steps through life according to your own thoughts, instead recall Christ's words and put them into action instead of your own thoughts so that it is no longer you who live, but Christ who lives in you through his words living in you and thus you become part of the body of Christ with the mind of Christ (His words). Literally stop doing what you think. Instead, ask yourself, "What does Jesus say?", recall a command/promise and then in the uprightness of your conscience and the integrity of your heart seek to apply it to your circumstances. Then do whatever you honestly believe is required of you by applying Christ's words to your circumstances. Then ask yourself "What does Jesus say?" and do it again and so forth as much as you can, as often as you can.
3. Never intentionally, knowing what you are doing, defiantly disobey Christ's commands. This is falling away, and there is no sacrifice for such wilful, intentional, defiant sin in the accurate knowledge of the truth.
4. Make every effort to intentionally obey Christ using this method to the point of death.

For example: If a person comes up to you and slaps you on one cheek:

Those uncalled who live without God and outside the covenants of God will think and do whatever seems right to them, whether it is bashing the person, running away, etc. etc. So live those who do not know Christ, they do whatever seems right to them, and this is the rebellion against God that must be turned away (repented) from.

A Christian may immediately recollect Christ's words, "If anyone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also." This Christian can then:

a. Obey Christ and turn the other cheek because he believes Christ's promise that if anyone keeps His teaching, they shall never know death (they will live forever - John 8:51). When a Chistian recollects and faithfully obeys this way, it is actually God acting in that Christian through the Word of God in that Christian.

or the Christian can:

b. Not recollect the words of God and as a reflex action run away. This is a Christian acting without the word of God in him/her. It is not like those without God because the Christian would do what God said if they remembered, but it is not as good as the Christian who recalls God's words and puts those into practice because of belief in God's promises. This Christian needs to ask themself: "What does Jesus say?" and get back to applying that to their circumstances so they are doing God's will as quickly as possible. 

or when slapped on one cheek a Christian can:

c. Not recall God's words and hit the person back as a reflex action before they think of anything. This is an unintentional sin. Note the word "unintentional", it is very important. Not that many people who call themself Christian know it, but there is an enormous difference between unintentional sins, mistakes, human imperfection, and wilful, defiant, intentional sin (knowing you are doing something against God and doing it anyway). In God's convenants atonement is only provided for unintentional sin, for mistakes, it is not provided for wilful, defiant, intentional sin (for telling God to get stuffed). Yes, most of you have never heard this before. Yes, it is basic and essential knowledge to understand how God's covenants work. Numbers 15:22-31; Psalm 19:12-13; Hebrews 10:26-17 will show you where the basic concept is introduced, where David refers to it and where it is recognised as being part of the New covenant under Christ. Surprising what you can not know? That is only the beginning, but anyway, back to the example,

d. the Christian is slapped, thinks of nothing and as a reflex hits the person, then thinks, "oops!" That Christian must repent of their unintentional sin. They must confess that sin. They must forgive others any sins they have done to them. Then, thanks to the grace purchased by Christ's death that is administered through Christ's words, that person can be forgiven because of their obedient belief in what God has promised them (note; not because they believe in Christ's death). So this Christian says sorry to the person they hit. Confesses openly that they have sinned unintentionally by doing so. Forgives this person for slapping them and everyone else for everything they have done to them. Belatedly remembers to turn the other cheek and does so, although the situation has past now. Reminds themself to think of that next time and do it next time if they are given the chance. And this Christian's unintentional sin is forgiven them.

Lastly, a Christian who is slapped on the cheek can:

e. Having remembered the command of Christ to turn the other cheek and appreciating that intentional obedience is required of them to be saved and that intentional, wilful, defiant disobedience is falling away to destruction. WIth all of that right knowledge in place, this Christian can, for whatever reason, reject Christ's command, reject Christ's promise of destruction for disobeying him (thus showing they do not believe), say "Stuff you God!" and wilfully, defiantly, knowledgably disobey by hitting the person who slapped them. This is wilful, defiant, intentional sin for which there is no sacrifice. This person has fallen away and now has nothing left but the fearful expectation of the judgement of God. I would say to such a person (and you cannot be such a person until you are taught the truth accurately in the first place so as far as I'm concerned no one here can be such a person for acts they have done in the past) I would say to such a person that they repent and triple their efforts for Christ for the rest of their lives in the hope that maybe He might somehow forgive them. Never give up! But that is a position that you never want to be in as a Christian. For it will be worse for you than if you had never known the commandment of truth.

There may be those who try to take issue with what I have written. Straight away I say that it is not an attempt at diligent teaching, there is no room. It is merely a character sketch to show people what is a non-Christian, what is a Christian who is recollected, what is a Christian who is temporarily not recollected and what is no longer a Christian, but someone who has fallen away.

I warn you not to accuse me of wrongdoing. If you think I have made an error, then message me with your bible and be prepared to use it. If you can show me where I have erred scripturally then I will rejoice because you will have added to me. But if I show you how little you know rightly, what will your reaction be?

The offer is there.

"Truly I say to you, if anyone keeps My words, they shall never know death." - JESUS (John 8:51)

I have seen Jesus alive with my own eyes. Believe him and do it no matter what the cost.

Kane called Brent.


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## moosenoose (Jan 22, 2009)

Amen


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## -Matt- (Jan 22, 2009)

jessb said:


> The whole point is that the bible _doesn't_ mention dinosaurs at all. I think the reference is to fundamentalist Christians who literally believe that the world _was_ created in 7 days and that it is only about 4,000 years old. They believe that dinosaurs never existed, that evolution is a lie and that fossils have been placed in the ground as God's test to those who question any of the dogma...


 
Exactly


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## KaneMortlock (Jan 22, 2009)

Oh, and as for snakes: Mark 16:17-18

"And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay their hands on the sick and they shall recover."


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## mebebrian (Jan 22, 2009)

Way too much bad stuff happens to good people for me to believe that there is a god controling everything.
And if there is a god up there controling everything,... i dont want anything to do with him or her!

Why do good, honest people need to die horrible deaths leaving behind loved ones who rely on them when you have scum like rapists, pedophiles and murderers dying of old age? Where's your god then?


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## jessb (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm afraid I couldn't face reading your entire manifesto Kane Mortlock - sorry! But I will say that hearing voices is commonly recognised as a sign of mental illness.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

mebebrian said:


> Way too much bad stuff happens to good people for me to believe that there is a god controling everything.
> And if there is a god up there controling everything,... i dont want anything to do with him or her!
> 
> Why do good, honest people need to die horrible deaths leaving behind loved ones who rely on them when you have scum like rapists, pedophiles and murderers dying of old age? Where's your god then?



Exactly, put nicely
And all these young kids who die at a young for various reasons, cancer for one?
Iv herd the whole "well God has a plan for them and he needs them" or some crap, which I think is EXTREMELY selfish! Your God has to be one of the biggest dick head control freaks I have ever herd of!
If he was as people say he is, why would he allow things such as 9/11 to happen? All those poor people killed? People of all ages. Some who hardly got a shot at life.
The things that prove God isn't real weighs out the things that prove he is. Well actually, there isn't any thing that proves he is. Bed time stories don't count.


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## Mrs I (Jan 22, 2009)

I have a lot of doubts about the Jehovah faith, for example is it true that they are not allowed to receive a blood transfusion?

If something happened and myself, my kids or family needed a transfusion to stay alive, then there would be no questioning that.

I myself dont believe in anything, except for life is whatever you make it yourself.

I believe in the earth and the spirit that each person has, and have had some experiences to make my believe that our spirit lives on, or this could be our human way of holding onto people too and seeing and believing things we want to.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

You know what I reckon their God is?
An explanation for the unknown.


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## Mrs I (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote KaneMortlock:

1. God exists. Jesus exists and is the Son of God. I have seen Christ alive a number of times with my own eyes and have heard His voice with my own ears. I am a witness to Christ's resurrection and to the fact that another, eternal life exists after this life.


Are you serious, you know what they say - Pics or it didnt happen.




Drugs are bad kiddies


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## notechistiger (Jan 22, 2009)

LOL Mrs I.


For those that are interested, there are a few well- studied "arguments" for and against the existence of God. Some that are for the existence are the "Teleological" argument, the "Cosmological" argument and the "Ontological" argument. Reading, it does become apparent that they are _flawed_ and honestly cannot prove the existence of said being. There are some more. I am of the opinion that the argument against the existence of God, the "Argument of Pain and Suffering", is a very good argument indeed  Check them out in google.com.

Think philosophically, and question the fundamentals. Finding a conclusion to the premises is what makes it enjoyable . A time is slowly coming where the premise "God exists" can no longer be explained by faith. I welcome that day.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

I have studied religion at great length, through to uni level... I have done years of bible exorgesis, interpretation etc., listened to leaders from all faiths.

At the end of it all, I am not religious. The bible contradicts itself constantly, and the most intelligent, progressive Christians I have spoken to basically say "oh none of it is literal, it is all just analogy etc." and I think, well, then why not just say 'it's a made up story, but I take what I will from it eg. values and morals.'

The whole burning babies thing gets me - I mean, WHAT sort of God, who is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING allows infants to be brutally tortured, toddlers to be raped, children to be beaten etc?

I have never managed to get a straight answer from a Christian on this. In over 10 years of study and research!



PS - can't believe the OP left off Judaism!


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## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

Actually I'd like to use this oppurtunity to ask the believers (the Christian types) how they personally come to terms with the contradictions and inaccuracies of the Bible. For instance, what (credible) historical sources do you use that prove that Jesus walked the earth? Remember, the Bible isn't an historically credible souce.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

Part6icularly not when there are PLENTY of other documents from the same time that contradict it!


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## ilovejordan (Jan 22, 2009)

Wiccan


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## djfreshy (Jan 22, 2009)

Satanist!


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

I like the Frisbytarian religion... "I believe when you die, your soul gets stuck on the roof and you can't get it down". Classic.


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## Veredus (Jan 22, 2009)

KaneMortlock I believe you are either a pathological liar or completely insane. Furthermore, agnosticism is not the most intelligent stance but rather more of a cop out. Though there may not be any absolutely conclusive evidence to deny the existence of god atheism is still by far the most intelligent stance given that the improbability of the existence of god is so great. Not only do we take into account the various hypocracies and inaccuracies of the bible but also the number of religions claiming to be correct. Add to this the fact that genuine miracles have not occured (and your own possibly narcotic induced episodes certainly dont count) since the beginning of the age of science and reason. As a scientifically minded person I can admit that currently we as a species do not have the facility to understand the nature of existence and the beginning of the universe, how it happened and why it happened, but nor do I go and make up silly stories to fill the void, instead I believe we must strive to produce knowledge through EVIDENCE.


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## megrim (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> I like the Frisbytarian religion... "I believe when you die, your soul gets stuck on the roof and you can't get it down". Classic.




That absolutely made my day. 

And I needed a pick-me-up after KaneMortlock's terrifying tirade :|


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## NotoriouS (Jan 22, 2009)

I like this thread - I am a little intrigued by all those who do not believe in God. What then is the purpose of your life? I mean it's quite an important question if you step back and ask yourself, is it not? This is your whole LIFE we are talking about, the reason behind your existence? Are we to assume that this complex and complicated thing called "human" exists without purpose? We live, eat, drink, work and die? Nothing comes after that? Life = pointless then does it not?

Poeple spend their whole lives working so that they may one day own a house and live in it. People spend 8-12 hours a day working (thats 1/3 - 1/2) your life when you look at it. That one house that they have worked towards is one house on one street.. which is one street in one suburb.. which is one suburb in one city... which is one city in one state... one state in one country... one country in coninent... one continent on one plant.. so on and so forth.. it seems totally insignificant doesn't it? Something you spend your entire pointless little existence towards is so insignificant when looked at the big picture - and then at the end of the day you have nothing to look forward to as your existence ends with your death..:shock::shock::shock:


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## =bECS= (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> I like this thread - I am a little intrigued by all those who do not believe in God. What then is the purpose of your life? I mean it's quite an important question if you step back and ask yourself, is it not? This is your whole LIFE we are talking about, the reason behind your existence? Are we to assume that this complex and complicated thing called "human" exists without purpose? We live, eat, drink, work and die? Nothing comes after that? Life = pointless then does it not?
> 
> Poeple spend their whole lives working so that they may one day own a house and live in it. People spend 8-12 hours a day working (thats 1/3 - 1/2) your life when you look at it. That one house that they have worked towards is one house on one street.. which is one street in one suburb.. which is one suburb in one city... which is one city in one state... one state in one country... one country in coninent... one continent on one plant.. so on and so forth.. it seems totally insignificant doesn't it? Something you spend your entire pointless little existence towards is so insignificant when looked at the big picture - and then at the end of the day you have nothing to look forward to as your existence ends with your death..:shock::shock::shock:



Sheikh Khalid Yassin?


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## jessb (Jan 22, 2009)

Wow, that's a bleak outlook on it, oshakoor! 

I prefer to look at it this way: We are on this earth for a finite time, we must do our best to make a difference while we are here - atheists love our friends, care for our neighbours, try in our own small way to make the world a better place and raise our families to do likewise. Atheists also do these things for altruistic reasons, rather than because there is the promise of heaven at the end of it! Religious people don't have the monopoly on being good, productive members of society you know!

In its most reduced form, we are animals, instinctively predetermined to pass on our genes as effectively as possible. I recognise that this instinctive biological need isn't necessarily always relevant in today's modern, Western society, but essentially I believe we are all just animals, albeit highly evolved ones.

I certainly don't think that living a good life surrounded by your loved ones for 80-odd years, raising kids, making friends, caring for your family through good and bad times, death, marriage and birth is futile and pointless. I do, however think that your view reinforces my earlier statement that many people use religion as a crutch to help them deal with the scary concept of mortality.


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## caustichumor (Jan 22, 2009)

I side with the sea otters....


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## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> I like this thread - I am a little intrigued by all those who do not believe in God. What then is the purpose of your life? I mean it's quite an important question if you step back and ask yourself, is it not? This is your whole LIFE we are talking about, the reason behind your existence? Are we to assume that this complex and complicated thing called "human" exists without purpose? We live, eat, drink, work and die? Nothing comes after that? Life = pointless then does it not?
> 
> Poeple spend their whole lives working so that they may one day own a house and live in it. People spend 8-12 hours a day working (thats 1/3 - 1/2) your life when you look at it. That one house that they have worked towards is one house on one street.. which is one street in one suburb.. which is one suburb in one city... which is one city in one state... one state in one country... one country in coninent... one continent on one plant.. so on and so forth.. it seems totally insignificant doesn't it? Something you spend your entire pointless little existence towards is so insignificant when looked at the big picture - and then at the end of the day you have nothing to look forward to as your existence ends with your death..:shock::shock::shock:



We're the same as any other organism. Our 'purpose' is to breed and further the species.
We are insignificant but life is what you make it. Not believing in a higher power does not denote that one's life is pointless. 
I understand that the idea of being alone during an existance that doesn't have some higher purpose scares alot of people. Hence the construction of gods. 

Why not take life at face value? Imagine just living life for the sake of it and enjoying it for what it is, not what it could be. You'd never have to fear any kind of punishment simply for being human. Nor would you ever have to worry about living a life constrained by constricting ideology. You can think what you like, love whomever you choose, and be content that you'll never have a crisis of faith. Freedom of choice and thought is actually a *good *thing 
But that's a negative thing you say?

Each to their own. If you prefer being told how to live and what to think and believing in magic helps you sleep at night then good for you


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## Australis (Jan 22, 2009)

The point is to reproduce, like every other animal.
Life is somewhat pointless and insignificant in the grand scheme of things, sure.

I guess if other species were intelligent enough to ponder life and death, they 
would create religions for themselves as well, or maybe its lucky they don't know
how meaningless their lives are .. <(^_^ )>


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## cris (Jan 22, 2009)

Mrs I said:


> Are you serious, you know what they say - Pics or it didnt happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Here is a still taken from video footage that proves God is real.


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## Chris1 (Jan 22, 2009)

how do u know which is the right god to worship?

all the religions available must be sharing the same god, and the organisers of the religions are telling their congregations the rules.

eg, if catholics are right the vast majority of the population is going to hell cos most people use contraception.
and how can gay people be rejected when forgiviness is meant to be a major factor in religion.

theyre all so hypocritical and different i'd rather not pee off the wrong god and go to hell even though i've dedicated my life to something 'spiritual'.

not something i go for personally, but if people feel they like the support of the community theyve found thru religion, then good for them!


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## Montyshock (Jan 22, 2009)

Check out "Richard Dawkins - The Root Of All Evil"


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## LullabyLizard (Jan 22, 2009)

None for me. 



There is no god!


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## HoffOff (Jan 22, 2009)

KaneMortlock said:


> I was an agnostic, the only intelligent, scientific position to take in the absence of evidence/data one way or the other. When you have not experienced anything to prove or disprove God's existence or encountered anyone else who has, "I don't know" seems to me the only logical, rational position to take. For all you people who call yourselves atheists out there, who are not only saying, "I don't know" but have lept to the conclusion "There is nothing," what evidence/data do you base that attitude upon? If you have experienced no evidence that disproves God's existence, how would you know? A lack of data (a lack of evidence that God exists) is not sufficient to draw the conclusion that He does not exist. Believe it or not, if God does exist, letting you in on it may not be on the top of His to do list.
> 
> So I think agnosticism in the absence of any evidence is the intelligent position, atheism is a presumption without sufficient evidence to support it.
> 
> ...


Crack is a hell of a drug


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## TroopyF (Jan 22, 2009)

KaneMortlock said:


> I was an agnostic, the only intelligent, scientific position to take in the absence of evidence/data one way or the other. When you have not experienced anything to prove or disprove God's existence or encountered anyone else who has, "I don't know" seems to me the only logical, rational position to take. For all you people who call yourselves atheists out there, who are not only saying, "I don't know" but have lept to the conclusion "There is nothing," what evidence/data do you base that attitude upon?
> 
> As was stated earlier, there are too many BAD things in this world. If there was a god he's got a pretty twisted sence of humour to be lettin half the crap go on that is like Rapists,pedophiles,murderers,politicians,Tsunamis,Earthquakes,etc Thats evidence enough for me that religion is ummm.......BOGUS.
> 
> Agnostic is just a fancy name for fence-sitter isn't it?


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## NotoriouS (Jan 22, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> Freedom of choice and thought is actually a *good *thing
> But that's a negative thing you say?
> 
> 
> ...


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## cockney red (Jan 22, 2009)

Christened Church of England. Practicing bible basher euthenaser.


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## Australis (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> [ imagine how many lives would be saved if no one drank = no drink driving accidents. Constraints can and do have benefits, that is why governments implement laws in order to promote constraint.



Imagine no religion based hate crimes, no religious fueled wars...


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## cockney red (Jan 22, 2009)

Australis said:


> Imagine no religion based hate crimes, no religious fueled wars... [/quote
> Says it all for me.


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## MAIA77 (Jan 22, 2009)

Wow, what a fantastic way to waste valuable work time, this has been a fun and interesting read, i've never laughed so hard in the whole time i've been a member of this forum... now for my two cents worth...

my mom is catholic and my dad is hindu, growing up my dad used to tell my mom “you lot need to wake jesus up from the dead with that huge church bell of yours” and mom’s reply was “yea you lot need to burn a ton of incense to cover up for your badly grafted elephant and monkey deities” 

I believe that the cave man needed a way to scare his kids from being consumed by the beasts in the dark and he conjured up fanciful stories of imaginary beings that would harm them if they didn't listen...and just like chinese whispers these stories got distorted with time...i also believe we are all forms of energy, vibrating at different levels thus taking on different forms...i guess we then should ask ourselves "what is the strongest energy form in our solar system" and maybe that sheds some light (pun intended) into people seeing this huge light and being drawn to it in near death...

*puts down hash pipe*

By the way, Herpetology suits for now...


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## NotoriouS (Jan 22, 2009)

Australis said:


> Imagine no religion based hate crimes, no religious fueled wars...


 
Religion does not have an intoxicating physical effect that causes man to lose his senses. Religion can be misinterpreted and cause idiots to do stupid things that actually go against their religion in the first place.

I'm sure all you science people out there can refer to your evidence to prove that excessive alcohol results in intoxication, and not merely reading a book.

Yes the world would be a much better place if there were no religion based crimes or wars - but it is not religion itself that causes them but man's own agenda that does.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

One of my all time favourite songs, purely for the lyrics... My dad used to sing it to me as a bedtime song all the time (He is a big Richard Dawkins fan!)... This always reminds me of how I feel about religion... 

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


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## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> Well firstly I never actually mentioned or said that Freedom of choice and thought is a negative thing.



Your last post cast a negative light on atheism, yes? Atheism is freedom of thought.



> I'm sure religious people enjoy life just as much. They also do not need to fear punishment if they live their lives according to the religion they believe in.


No-one should ever fear punishment simply for thinking for themselves. Take away religion and you take away any need to be fearful.



> Yes, religion does impose constraints - e.g. no alcohol is the muslim religion. BUT, imagine how many lives would be saved if no one drank = no drink driving accidents.


Imagine how many *millions* more would be saved if we never had religious conflicts. That includes everything from outright wars to those poor people who kill themselves because of shame caused by religion.



> Constraints can and do have benefits, that is why governments implement laws in order to promote constraint.


Common secular law cannot be compared to religious ideology. Common law exists to protect people and property. Religious ideology exists to control thought.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> I am a little intrigued by all those who do not believe in God. What then is the purpose of your life? I mean it's quite an important question if you step back and ask yourself, is it not? This is your whole LIFE we are talking about, the reason behind your existence? Are we to assume that this complex and complicated thing called "human" exists without purpose? We live, eat, drink, work and die? Nothing comes after that? Life = pointless then does it not?



Life doesn't need to have a purpose, I live to enjoy the things I love, and do what ever I want, not what "God" says I should do and what is acceptable.
What else are we suppose to do? 
Imnot worried about what MIGHT happen when I die, so why live life half heartedly encase theres something better? It's not a fact, so theres no way I can live my life like this. 

Even if there was, I doubt it would be better than earth. Sure its not perfect. But theres no place I would rather be.
Thits really hits me especially when im out amoung nature. The smell of the bush, all the wildlife.
Heaven? Im in it!


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## Hooglabah (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> One of my all time favourite songs, purely for the lyrics... My dad used to sing it to me as a bedtime song all the time (He is a big Richard Dawkins fan!)... This always reminds me of how I feel about religion...
> 
> Imagine there's no heaven
> It's easy if you try
> ...



gotta love perfect circle covers. 

you should listen to annihilation 

athiest but snakeology now thats sounds like a wicked idea. im gonna see if barrnett wants to wring our bible we could go around door knocking and ask people if they have heard the good hiss


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Jewly said:


> Here's a question for you. If God is such a forgiving God, then why couldn't he forgive Adam and Eve for eating an apple?


Remember, the Bible says that at this stage, Adam and Eve were perfect humans. By eating the fruit - the _one_ thing God said not to do, they were basically saying "God, we don't need you. We're fine on our own. Go away."

Just imagine, you create a beautiful home, give it free of charge, provide _everything_ the occupants need and they tell you to Get Stuffed. How would you feel?



W.T.BUY said:


> But a few good morals are worth wars and millions of lives.


The Bible actually, throughout the entire book, speaks against worldly wars. If people who "fight in gods name" actually read the Bible, they would see how wrong they are. 

Psalm 46:9 says "He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire."

Isaiah 48:17-18 really sums it up: "This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. *O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river*, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea."



Vat69 said:


> Actually I'd like to use this oppurtunity to ask the believers (the Christian types) how they personally come to terms with the contradictions and inaccuracies of the Bible. For instance, what (credible) historical sources do you use that prove that Jesus walked the earth? *Remember, the Bible isn't an historically credible souce*.



What makes you say that? The Bible is often _more_ accurate than secular history. People once questioned the existence of such Bible characters as King Sargon of Assyria, Belshazzar of Babylon, and the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. But recent discoveries have verified one Bible account after another.

Also, this thread is starting to fall off its wheels. Lets keep it adult guys


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## Hooglabah (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> Life doesn't need to have a purpose, I live to enjoy the things I love, and do what ever I want, not what "God" says I should do and what is acceptable.
> What else are we suppose to do?
> Imnot worried about what MIGHT happen when I die, so why live life half heartedly encase theres something better? It's not a fact, so theres no way I can live my life like this.
> 
> ...



amen to that there is nothing better than being out bush.

oh and guys i still reek of lizard poo its been like two weeks anyidea how to get the smell outta my hair ive tried washing it for like a week or so now it just isnt getting out.


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## Montyshock (Jan 22, 2009)

- Do you believe "god" created the universe and everything in it in 6 days.

- Do you believe the world is only 5000,10000 or 15000 years old, all depending on what religion you follow.

- Is the only reason why you dont murder, steal and rape because of your fear of god?


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Remember, the Bible says that at this stage, Adam and Eve were perfect humans. By eating the fruit - the _one_ thing God said not to do, they were basically saying "God, we don't need you. We're fine on our own. Go away."
> 
> Just imagine, you create a beautiful home, give it free of charge, provide _everything_ the occupants need and they tell you to Get Stuffed. How would you feel?


 
But God is supposed to be ABOVE feelings of bitterness etc. He is ALL FORGIVING. And if he made them Perfect, why did they eat the fruit? He obviously stuffed up! Or if he gave them free will, he needed to accept what they did with it.

Why create something, give it free will, then tell it NOT to do something, and get angry when it does? I think god would have better things to do!


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

How WE would react, as 'imperfect people' should be completely different to how He would react!


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## Veredus (Jan 22, 2009)

Montyshock said:


> Check out "Richard Dawkins - The Root Of All Evil"


 
Richard Dawkins IS God...:lol: 



oshakoor said:


> BUT, imagine how many lives would be saved if no one drank = no drink driving accidents.


 
Are we to assume then that muslim countries have a lower incidence of death by unnatural causes? The way I see it, primarily muslim countries are filled with people who believe absolutely in their particular religion, and this can lead to violence even between different denominations of the same religion. This is in no way an attack on Islam, the same occurs with other religions, like the deeply religious christian terrorists who bomb abortion clinics and Jewish states that bomb schools.



oshakoor said:


> Religion does not have an intoxicating physical effect that causes man to lose his senses.


Actually this isn't true, strong religious conviction can lead to the release of chemicals in the body including adrenaline and endorphins, prayer and other such religious activities often do have a literally intoxicating effect. An example is the intense love you may feel for your deity while praying, the chemicals that control love are specifically designed to override reason.


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Montyshock said:


> - Do you believe "god" created the universe and everything in it in 6 days.



Not six literal days, six periods of time.



> - Do you believe the world is only 5000,10000 or 15000 years old, all depending on what religion you follow.



Yeah.



> - Is the only reason why you dont murder, steal and rape because of your fear of god?



No. Just because God says something is wrong shouldn't be the only reason not to do something. We were not created wanting to rape, murder and steal. It is the result of inherited sin from Adam and Eve, due to the Devil's influence - you know, the apple thing.


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## cockney red (Jan 22, 2009)

Their is only one true God. His name is Sir Alex Ferguson.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Yeah.


 
Oh. Dear. How do you explain the clear and extensive scientific evidence such as carbon dating and fossils?


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## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> What makes you say that? The Bible is often _more_ accurate than secular history. People once questioned the existence of such Bible characters as King Sargon of Assyria, Belshazzar of Babylon, and the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. But recent discoveries have verified one Bible account after another.



I asked a _specific _question about the existence of Jesus. The Bible cannot be used as a credible historical source in this instance. Whether or not the Bible is accurate in other instances is irrelevent here.
What university have you studied at that is telling you that the Bible is more accurate that secular sources?


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> But God is supposed to be ABOVE feelings of bitterness etc. He is ALL FORGIVING. And if he made them Perfect, why did they eat the fruit? He obviously stuffed up! Or if he gave them free will, he needed to accept what they did with it.
> 
> Why create something, give it free will, then tell it NOT to do something, and get angry when it does? I think god would have better things to do!



We were created with free will. The _gift_ of free will. Remember, God has the power to force people to follow him. 

They had freedom to do whatever they wanted, just don't touch that tree! Being perfect, they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway. It was not an imperfect mistake, it was wilful disobedience. There is a difference.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Not six literal days, six periods of time.


 
Six periods of time? Then why doesn't the bible say that? Why say days if that is not acurate?


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> They had freedom to do whatever they wanted, just don't touch that tree! Being perfect, they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway. It was not an imperfect mistake, it was wilful disobedience. There is a difference.


 
Then they were not Perfect.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

What kind of a dick would hang these delicious fruit in front of them and tell them they cant eat it?
Why couldn't they eat it? That's what fruits for? We eat it and spread its seeds.
God sounds like a bit of a dictator to me. Never have like him.


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Oh. Dear. How do you explain the clear and extensive scientific evidence such as carbon dating and fossils?



Sorry, I misread that one. What I meant was *mankind* is only a few thousand years old. 

I have no idea on the actual age of the earth. My mistake.


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## Dodie (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> We were created with free will. The _gift_ of free will. Remember, God has the power to force people to follow him.


 
LOL :lol:


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## Hooglabah (Jan 22, 2009)

a better statement would be recorded history is only a few thousand years old mankind has been proven to be around up to 10,000 years bc, if my memory serves me correctly from history class Myians Azteks ect ect ect. 

please correct me if im wrong history buffs


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## Dodie (Jan 22, 2009)

Humans are around 100 000 years

The earth is 4.5 billion.

I believe we evolved from a primordial soup, a mix of carbon, phosphorous, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> a better statement would be recorded history is only a few thousand years old mankind has been proven to be around up to 10,000 years bc, if my memory serves me correctly from history class Myians Azteks ect ect ect.
> 
> please correct me if im wrong history buffs


 
That is quite correct.

Not to mention the presence of Neolithic man etc. as shown quite clearly in fossils and carbon dated. You know, all those men during the process of EVOLUTION :lol:


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## Dodie (Jan 22, 2009)

I should of stated - our ancestors are around 100 000, not too sure on Homo sapiens...


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> What kind of a dick would hang these delicious fruit in front of them and tell them they cant eat it?
> Why couldn't they eat it? That's what fruits for? We eat it and spread its seeds.
> God sounds like a bit of a dictator to me. Never have like him.



The Garden was *full* of fruit trees, and there was *only one* they couldn't eat from. (Gen 2:16: And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it")



dailyskin said:


> Then they were not Perfect.


How do you mean? Perfect does not mean not able to do wrong. It means free from vices, free from sickness and death, pain.



Vat69 said:


> I asked a _specific _question about the existence of Jesus. The Bible cannot be used as a credible historical source in this instance. Whether or not the Bible is accurate in other instances is irrelevent here.
> What university have you studied at that is telling you that the Bible is more accurate that secular sources?



So I can't use the Bible as a historical source, even though multiple times it has been proven by secular history after centuries of doubt? The Bible's history is _extremely_ accurate, down to minor details. Why, then, should we discount the existence of Jesus?

And, if that isn't enough, respected ancient historians (such as Flavius Josephus and Carius Cornelius Tacitus) refer to Jesus.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

Dodie said:


> I should of stated - our ancestors are around 100 000, not too sure on Homo sapiens...


 
Yes it's quite complicated because there are all the different branches of evolution! oops there is that word again!


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> The Garden was *full* of fruit trees, and there was *only one* they couldn't eat from. (Gen 2:16: And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it")


 
but WHY?! It is so ridiculous and bizarre! Why put something Edible there if they weren't supposed to eat it? What was the point? To test them?


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## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> We were created with free will. The _gift_ of free will. Remember, God has the power to force people to follow him.



That's a bit contradictory.
But any way, if he has this power, why are there all these atheists such as myself? And all these rapists and murderers?
Why doesn't he use his powers to make these people follow him so they don't "sin" any more?


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## Dodie (Jan 22, 2009)

Maybe that's the bad evil fruit that turned Redbellies kid gay...


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## Dodie (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> That's a bit contradictory.
> But any way, if he has this power, why are there all these atheists such as myself? And all these rapists and murderers?
> Why doesn't he use his powers to make these people follow him so they don't "sin" any more?


 
Cause he works in mysterious ways duh!


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> but WHY?! It is so ridiculous and bizarre! Why put something Edible there if they weren't supposed to eat it? What was the point? To test them?



The tree was a representation of God's right to rule Earth.By eating of that particular tree, they were helping themselves to something that only God has the right to have.


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> That's a bit contradictory.
> But any way, if he has this power, why are there all these atheists such as myself? And all these rapists and murderers?
> Why doesn't he use his powers to make these people follow him so they don't "sin" any more?


 
Yes. Please answer this, anyone! If he can force anyone to do anything - Why are babies and children being tortured all across the world?


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> That's a bit contradictory.
> But any way, if he has this power, why are there all these atheists such as myself? And all these rapists and murderers?
> Why doesn't he use his powers to make these people follow him so they don't "sin" any more?



Because we have free will! :lol:


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## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> The tree was a representation of God's right to rule Earth.By eating of that particular tree, they were helping themselves to something that only God has the right to have.


 
Then why did he put it there? Why put his special God juice in some tasty apples?


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Because we have free will! :lol:


 
But if he is all powerful, he should stop those things. If he doesn't, but can, that is so, so, so messed up.


----------



## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Because we have free will! :lol:



But you said that god has the power to force people to follow him!?!
So he doesn't then does he?


----------



## megrim (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> Religion does not have an intoxicating physical effect that causes man to lose his senses.



YouTube - Baptized with the holy Ghost &amp; Fire - Speaking in tongues!


And that was one of the tamer videos.


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Yes. Please answer this, anyone! If he can force anyone to do anything - Why are babies and children being tortured all across the world?



If you are really interested in answers, read this article. 

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20070915/article_02.htm

For the main info relating to this discussion, scroll down to "A Vital Issue Is Raised"


----------



## sparky (Jan 22, 2009)

You just dont get it dailyskin. God is the allmighty ruler, he has the right to create and destroy, and do what he sees fit with his creations. If he wants to play games with his creations he will. Deal with it, love him or perish in the eternal flames of hell. Next topic!


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Guys, I'm happy to answer questions, as long as you are genuinely interested in me giving answers. If you are only trying to prove me wrong, I will stop now.


----------



## DDALDD (Jan 22, 2009)

This is starting to heat up, keep it civil guys, it's an interesting read.


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

DDALDD said:


> This is starting to heat up, keep it civil guys, it's an interesting read.



Sounds good


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

"For example, a brick may break loose from the top of a high building and strike a pedestrian. Is God to blame? No. It was an unplanned and unforeseen occurrence. The same may often be said when sickness invades a household or sudden death leaves behind orphans and widows."

Um. But God is supposed to be Omnipotent and Omnipresent. So what kinda dodgy god didn't see an accident waiting to happen? What kind of God just fails to notice that some kiddies are being orphaned? Kids are told "God loves every person. He hears your prayers". Then the kid wonders why God is letting his priest rape him every week...


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Guys, I'm happy to answer questions, as long as you are genuinely interested in me giving answers. If you are only trying to prove me wrong, I will stop now.


 
As I said - I studied religion for many years. I am genuinely interested in the responses. But the reasoning is often so, so flawed that I can't understand how people believe it?


----------



## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

sparky said:


> Deal with it, love him or perish in the eternal flames of hell. Next topic!



People like you, make people like me, get thread's like this closed.
Go somewhere else thank you.


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> "For example, a brick may break loose from the top of a high building and strike a pedestrian. Is God to blame? No. It was an unplanned and unforeseen occurrence. The same may often be said when sickness invades a household or sudden death leaves behind orphans and widows."
> 
> Um. But God is supposed to be Omnipotent and Omnipresent. So what kinda dodgy god didn't see an accident waiting to happen? What kind of God just fails to notice that some kiddies are being orphaned? Kids are told "God loves every person. He hears your prayers". Then the kid wonders why God is letting his priest rape him every week...



It's Satan's ambition to turn people against God. One of his major weapons is making god out to be useless or even decremental to human society. He's doing a pretty good job!


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

sparky said:


> You just dont get it dailyskin. God is the allmighty ruler, he has the right to create and destroy, and do what he sees fit with his creations. If he wants to play games with his creations he will. Deal with it, love him or perish in the eternal flames of hell. Next topic!



Please don't get this thread locked. Thank You.


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> It's Satan's ambition to turn people against God. One of his major weapons is making god out to be useless or even decremental to human society. He's doing a pretty good job!


 
So Satan is as powerful as God? Or close to?


----------



## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Guys, I'm happy to answer questions, as long as you are genuinely interested in me giving answers. If you are only trying to prove me wrong, I will stop now.



Yes I am interested, Im not trying to convert you or anything, just having a good debate.
So you cant answer my question?
(don't take that offensively)



dailyskin said:


> As I said - I studied religion for many years. I am genuinely interested in the responses. But the reasoning is often so, so flawed that I can't understand how people believe it?



Agreed


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> As I said - I studied religion for many years. I am genuinely interested in the responses. But the reasoning is often so, so flawed that I can't understand how people believe it?



I think the reason for that is the fact that there are so many different religions, teaching so many different things, all claiming to represent one God.

I most certainly agree with you when you say that the reasoning is often flawed in many religions. However, I don't think that is the case with mine.


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> So you cant answer my question?



Sorry mate, what was your question again? I'll do my best to answer it for you.


----------



## Stergo (Jan 22, 2009)

Pentacostal Christian although snakeology sounds interesting :0)


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Please don't get this thread locked. Thank You.


 
Oh my! I thought he was being sarcastic! he was being serious?!


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Oh my! I thought he was being sarcastic! he was being serious?!



Who knows, its hard to get tone online. I just want this thread to stay open as long as possible and comments like his are liable to 'set people off'


----------



## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> So I can't use the Bible as a historical source, even though multiple times it has been proven by secular history after centuries of doubt? The Bible's history is _extremely_ accurate, down to minor details. Why, then, should we discount the existence of Jesus?
> 
> And, if that isn't enough, respected ancient historians (such as Flavius Josephus and Carius Cornelius Tacitus) refer to Jesus.



You can certainly use the Bible as a historical source, it can be a very useful one!
In the case of Jesus however,_ there are no contemporary sources that recorded his life_. When you study history you use both 'primary' and 'seconday' sources. Primary sources were recorded at the time of the event they are recording. Secondary sources however are constructed after the event using either primary documents and/or other secondary sources and their bias becomes much greater. This means we should be very wary of using secondary sources as accurate depictions of an event. In the case of secondary sources around the BCE and beginning of the CE period we should be especially careful as they can be very innaccurate because hear-say and legend are often woven into accounts as fact.
While ancient historians do refer to Jesus and that he had followers who reffered to him as Christ, how many years after the fact are they referring to him? What sources are they using other than the work produced by Jesus' followers, who also only wrote about him a long time after his supposed death? 
Not all of what the great classical historians write about actually happened. I mean, _The Annals_ is a fabulous read but you'd be very mistaken if you believed it to be entirely accurate


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

Look, to be honest, I would LOVE to be religious. In many ways I think it would be extremely comforting. And I've TRIED! I've read, I've listened, I've attended many churches and temples. But I just can't buy it!


----------



## tooninoz (Jan 22, 2009)

You are all as bad as each other! The Trendy Atheist v The Old Testament Bible Basher...
All trying to ram your beliefs/non-beliefs down each others throats and claim the Higher Moral Ground 

Just live your life according to your own code. It's stress-free, and will save you on infractions.
Plus it frees up the forum...


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

tooninoz said:


> You are all as bad as each other! The Trendy Atheist v The Old Testament Bible Basher...
> All trying to ram your beliefs/non-beliefs down each others throats and claim the Higher Moral Ground
> 
> Just live your life according to your own code. It's stress-free, and will save you on infractions.
> Plus it frees up the forum...


 
Actually some of us enjoy the discussion, and some healthy arguament that encourages us to think and opens our minds,.


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Actually some of us enjoy the discussion, and some healthy arguament that encourages us to think and opens our minds,.



Agreed


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

Much of one side of my family is Muslim, some are Buddhist, and there are a few Christians. I don't believe it all, and often disagree, but I enjoy talking about it.


----------



## Montyshock (Jan 22, 2009)

2nd that.

Ohhh now abbott75 you better make another post it up 666........is this a sign....lol


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> You can certainly use the Bible as a historical source, it can be a very useful one!
> In the case of Jesus however,_ there are no contemporary sources that recorded his life_. When you study history you use both 'primary' and 'seconday' sources. Primary sources were recorded at the time of the event they are recording. Secondary sources however are constructed after the event using either primary documents and/or other secondary sources and their bias becomes much greater. This means we should be very wary of using secondary sources as accurate depictions of an event. In the case of secondary sources around the BCE and beginning of the CE period we should be especially careful as they can be very innaccurate because hear-say and legend are often woven into accounts as fact.
> While ancient historians do refer to Jesus and that he had followers who reffered to him as Christ, how many years after the fact are they referring to him? What sources are they using other than the work produced by Jesus' followers, who also only wrote about him a long time after his supposed death?
> Not all of what the great classical historians write about actually happened. I mean, _The Annals_ is a fabulous read but you'd be very mistaken if you believed it to be entirely accurate



Know all about sources, back in the ol' school days history was my forté.

Now you are asking me to prove the existence of a man, but not allowing me to use major primary sources as well as later secondary sources. A bit of a handicap, don't you think?


----------



## dailyskin (Jan 22, 2009)

Anyhoo I'm off to indulge in My Religion - Snakology  I hope to read this all tomorrow if it continues!


----------



## MAIA77 (Jan 22, 2009)

tooninoz said:


> You are all as bad as each other! The Trendy Atheist v The Old Testament Bible Basher...
> All trying to ram your beliefs/non-beliefs down each others throats and claim the Higher Moral Ground
> 
> Just live your life according to your own code. It's stress-free, and will save you on infractions.
> Plus it frees up the forum...




People keep on learnin
Soldiers keep on warrin
World keep on turnin
Cause it wont be too long

Powers keep on lyin
While your people keep on dyin
World keep on turnin
Cause it wont be too long

Im so darn glad he let me try it again
Cause my last time on earth I lived a whole world of sin
Im so glad that I know more than I knew then
Gonna keep on tryin
Till I reach the highest ground

Teachers keep on teachin
Preachers keep on preachin
World keep on turnin
Cause it wont be too long
Oh no

Lovers keep on lovin
Believers keep on believin
Sleepers just stop sleepin
Cause it wont be too long
Oh no

Im so glad that he let me try it again
Cause my last time on earth I lived a whole world of sin
Im so glad that I know more than I knew then
Gonna keep on tryin
Till I reach my highest ground...whew!
Till I reach my highest ground
No ones gonna bring me down
Oh no
Till I reach my highest ground
Dont you let nobody bring you down (they'll sho nuff try)
God is gonna show you higher ground
Hes the only friend you have around

:lol:

Your comment indicates that you too are aiming for that higher moral ground :|


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Montyshock said:


> 2nd that.
> 
> Ohhh now abbott75 you better make another post it up 666........is this a sign....lol



:lol: Good one haha


----------



## cement (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, by the pole it looks like sweet stuff all of us are religous... And thats a good thing.


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

cement said:


> Well, by the pole it looks like sweet stuff all of us are religous... And thats a good thing.



Come on, a lot of us are enjoying the healthy debate on this thread. Please don't start it on the down-hill run.


----------



## =bECS= (Jan 22, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> You can certainly use the Bible as a historical source, it can be a very useful one!
> In the case of Jesus however,_ there are no contemporary sources that recorded his life_. When you study history you use both 'primary' and 'seconday' sources. Primary sources were recorded at the time of the event they are recording. Secondary sources however are constructed after the event using either primary documents and/or other secondary sources and their bias becomes much greater. This means we should be very wary of using secondary sources as accurate depictions of an event. In the case of secondary sources around the BCE and beginning of the CE period we should be especially careful as they can be very innaccurate because hear-say and legend are often woven into accounts as fact.
> While ancient historians do refer to Jesus and that he had followers who reffered to him as Christ, how many years after the fact are they referring to him? What sources are they using other than the work produced by Jesus' followers, who also only wrote about him a long time after his supposed death?
> Not all of what the great classical historians write about actually happened. I mean, _The Annals_ is a fabulous read but you'd be very mistaken if you believed it to be entirely accurate



8)

YouTube - 5. Learn Christianity in 5 Minutes!


----------



## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Know all about sources, back in the ol' school days history was my forté.
> 
> Now you are asking me to prove the existence of a man, but not allowing me to use major primary sources as well as later secondary sources. A bit of a handicap, don't you think?



Who said anything about proving it without sources? That would be impossible. All I want is some credible references. That is, references that aren't produced by followers or obviously based on hear-say. 
I'm particularly interested in these primary sources you claim to have. You'd be the first person ever to have found them.


----------



## NotoriouS (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Come on, a lot of us are enjoying the healthy debate on this thread. Please don't start it on the down-hill run.


 
Agreed


----------



## Montyshock (Jan 22, 2009)

Religion shouldnt be forced onto children from there parents. This is one thing I hate.
There are millions of children out there who are never given the chance to question it, or make up there own minds.

I have 3 children, 2 of which are in school learning religion. In year 1 and 2.
I would never think about forcing my beliefs onto them.


----------



## Sarah24 (Jan 22, 2009)

wow...i never realised how many atheists there were...just looking at the poll shows a clear majority...people (like my family) would always say that i was bad for being atheist and that i should follow the right way and be christian...hmmm...


----------



## tooninoz (Jan 22, 2009)

MAIA77 said:


> Your comment indicates that you too are aiming for that higher moral ground :|



You read me like a book.


----------



## NotoriouS (Jan 22, 2009)

=becs= said:


> 8)
> 
> youtube - 5. Learn christianity in 5 minutes!


 
:d:d:d


----------



## =bECS= (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> :d:d:d



heres another 

YouTube - Jesus Christ (pbuh) in Islam


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> I'm particularly interested in these primary sources you claim to have. You'd be the first person ever to have found them.



The Gospel accounts don't classify as primary?


----------



## paleoherp (Jan 22, 2009)

Well I personally can't stand religion, It is such a primitive way of thinking and I truly believe it holds us back as a species. I hate the power of the church and places like the Vatican, it's like a country in itself. 
I can't stand the virus of faith which is past on by parents brainwashing their children and I find it sad that people think they have to endure this life to get to the next, and yes if I do worship anyone it is Richard Dawkins.

I also don't understand how people dismiss the theory of evolution put forward by Charles Darwin in 1859 in his book _on the origin of species_ which by the way is my bible. The theory of evolution by natural selection has been tried and tested and tested again for over 150 years and finally confirmed with the discovery of DNA and the mapping of the human Genome.

And remember an agnostic is just an athiest with no balls.


----------



## Jewly (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> It's interesting to see how vocal the people who are not religious are on this matter compared to the people who are religious. Based on the above comments everyone seems to need to explain/justify why they do not believe in God whilst at the same time, either knowingly or unknowingly, insulting other people's beliefs.


 

Maybe the reason we feel we have to do that, is because we can't even live in peace in our own homes without religious do-gooders coming and knocking on our doors trying to persuade us to change our minds and telling us that the way we think and live is wrong.

Funny, but I've never had an athiest come to my door thinking they had the right to do the same thing.


----------



## Jewly (Jan 22, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> I like this thread - I am a little intrigued by all those who do not believe in God. What then is the purpose of your life? is one.


 
My purpose in life is to enjoy the experience of living. To enjoy the company of my friends and family and to enjoy helping them for the sake of wanting to make their life more enjoyable. To enjoy the earth that we live in, to travel and experience new lands and cultures.

I don't live my life in the hope of dying and getting into heaven. I think people who believe that, are going to get a nasty little shock when they actually do die because I believe heaven and hell were only invented to try and manipulate people into doing the 'right' thing.

I believe in karma. What energy you put out in the world is what you get back.


----------



## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> The Gospel accounts don't classify as primary?



You tell me. Were they written by people who actually knew Jesus and spoke to him? Or were they written after Jesus was said to have died?
What university did you study history at?


----------



## Jewly (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Remember, the Bible says that at this stage, Adam and Eve were perfect humans. By eating the fruit - the _one_ thing God said not to do, they were basically saying "God, we don't need you. We're fine on our own. Go away."
> 
> Just imagine, you create a beautiful home, give it free of charge, provide _everything_ the occupants need and they tell you to Get Stuffed. How would you feel?


 
Yet again, no one has ever been able to answer this question to any satisfaction. From what I can remember of the Bible, God also never explained to Adam and Eve what the consequences would be if they did eat the apple. Hardly fair to give such a harsh punishment for something when they didn't know what the consequences of their actions were going to be. Plus, he not only punished them, but every person who came after them.

Anyway, I've always believed that when you give a gift, you don't put conditions on it.


----------



## Jewly (Jan 22, 2009)

Montyshock said:


> Religion shouldnt be forced onto children from there parents. This is one thing I hate.
> There are millions of children out there who are never given the chance to question it, or make up there own minds.
> 
> I have 3 children, 2 of which are in school learning religion. In year 1 and 2.
> I would never think about forcing my beliefs onto them.


 

I was one of them for many years. My mother tried to brainwash me and forced me to go to church every week until I was 16 even though I had strong beliefs way back then. She called that 'rebelling' but then anything I do that she doesn't agree with, is classed as that.

I tried everything to get out of going to church and I would try and make her life hell while I was there. One funny thing I did when I was about 5 was that she bought me a pair of knickers that had a big plastic thing on the front and when you pushed it, it would play Baa Baa Black Sheep. I wore them backwards to church and everytime I sat down after standing for a hymn, my backside would play a tune. She was incredibly embarrassed but it gave everyone else a good laugh...lol


----------



## DanTheMan (Jan 22, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> You tell me. Were they written by people who actually knew Jesus and spoke to him? Or were they written after Jesus was said to have died?



The bible is just one big game of Chinese whispers, can some one tell me how long the bible was written after the death of Jesus? Iv forgotten.


----------



## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> can some one tell me how long the bible was written after the death of Jesus? Iv forgotten.



My question was rhetorical. There's been a number of different versions produced. I believe the first gospel was Mark and it appeared around 40yrs after Jesus is said to have died.


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Jewly said:


> Yet again, no one has ever been able to answer this question to any satisfaction. From what I can remember of the Bible, God also never explained to Adam and Eve what the consequences would be if they did eat the apple. Hardly fair to give such a harsh punishment for something when they didn't know what the consequences of their actions were going to be. Plus, he not only punished them, but every person who came after them.
> 
> Anyway, I've always believed that when you give a gift, you don't put conditions on it.



Genesis 2:15-17: "And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E´den to cultivate it and to take care of it. And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. *But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.*"

Seems pretty clear to me


----------



## MAIA77 (Jan 22, 2009)

tooninoz said:


> You read me like a book.




Not much reading required, rather a pamphlet than a book....all meant in equal measure of jest


----------



## fatfrog (Jan 22, 2009)

I go for 12 hours the pages go from 9 to 19 it seems everyone has an opinion and thats great but i cant be bothered reading through 19 pages of what is very much the same stuff:?.
Judging from the Q's i know more about christianity then MOST of the atheists and thats enough for me(I'm to lazy to change anyway). 
THIS DEBATE WILL GO NO FOREVER..................................................................................


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> You tell me. Were they written by people who actually knew Jesus and spoke to him? Or were they written after Jesus was said to have died?
> What university did you study history at?



They were written after Jesus died, you can't exactly write a factual account of one's death while they're still alive .

Matthew and John were members of the Twelve, so they definitely knew Jesus personally. Mark and Luke were not of the Twelve, but they did live at the same time as Jesus and as Christians would have known what was going on.

I have not studied history at university, but what difference does that make? Are my views magically less valid because I have not conformed to one school of secular reasoning?


----------



## Emzie (Jan 22, 2009)

i was brought up a Jehovah's witness and mum is still one i guess i left when i found parties and boys and other things, im surprised how many others are on here

at the moment im nothing , well i guess just confused

if i was to turn to religion then ild go back to what i was brought up just cause that's what i know i couldn't imagine worshiping something else


----------



## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Emzie said:


> i was brought up a Jehovah's witness and mum is still one i guess i left when i found parties and boys and other things, im surprised how many others are on here
> 
> at the moment im nothing , well i guess just confused
> 
> if i was to turn to religion then ild go back to what i was brought up just cause that's what i know i couldn't imagine worshiping something else




Haha, we still have parties (and boys)! :lol:


----------



## Emzie (Jan 22, 2009)

Montyshock said:


> Religion shouldnt be forced onto children from there parents. This is one thing I hate.
> There are millions of children out there who are never given the chance to question it, or make up there own minds.
> 
> I have 3 children, 2 of which are in school learning religion. In year 1 and 2.
> I would never think about forcing my beliefs onto them.



yeah i agree thats why i dont understand why catholic baptise them as babies they should be able to make a choice on there own

my bf's family are catholic but he isnt yet they think if we have a baby it should be baptised ive made it very clear i want my kids to make there own choice of if any religion they want, and i get shun'd for that


----------



## Emzie (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Haha, we still have parties (and boys)! :lol:


lol yeah ive been there, not the same really

hope you've been counting the time in this thread


----------



## Vat69 (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> I have not studied history at university, but what difference does that make? Are my views magically less valid because I have not conformed to one school of secular reasoning?



Considering this a discussion on an internet herp forum it makes no difference :lol:
However I would say that your opinion is not as credible as a university trained historian. I might add that (in my experience atleast across four different universities both in Australia and overseas) university history and religion courses do not teach students to 'conform' to secularism.
In addition, the Gospels are not considered to provide conclusive proof of the existence of Jesus. If that were true the life of Jesus would be accepted fact, which it is not.


----------



## Emzie (Jan 22, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> What kind of a dick would hang these delicious fruit in front of them and tell them they cant eat it?
> Why couldn't they eat it? That's what fruits for? We eat it and spread its seeds.
> God sounds like a bit of a dictator to me. Never have like him.



as a test of faith

they were provided with endless amounts of food and did not need the apple but they chose to eat from that tree and had to suffer to consequences


----------



## Dipcdame (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> If you are really interested in answers, read this article.
> 
> http://www.watchtower.org/e/20070915/article_02.htm
> 
> For the main info relating to this discussion, scroll down to "A Vital Issue Is Raised"



The watchtower!!!!!!!!!???????? So all this is from the point of view of a jehovas witness.............. hmmmmm....... NOW this is getting good. I wouldn't give anyone from that faith time of day, nor take note of their ramblings, you see.....I believe in preserving life, NOT taking it. There is no way I would stand by and watch my child/brother/parent/husband die, simply because a PIECE OF PAPER tells me I cannot save their lives by allowing doctors to do what they can to save them, even if it meant blood transfusions and transplants. I don't CARE how much I might be preached to that it is not "god's will" or whatever the excuse is. Where is it ACTUALLY stated?? Which PIECE OF PAPER??

Someone earlier said that religious people who , in my opinion, spend their entire lives preparing to die, will be very disappointed when their time comes. AND, I add, realise just what a mistake they made in killing their own families.

Who is to say that is was NOT this gods will that peoples lives SHOULD be saved...... otherwise, why were they given the knowledge in the first place?? (and please, DON'T insult my intelligence by citing this free will rubbish. IF this god was supposed to be SO caring, he would do all he/it could to releive suffering)


----------



## missllama (Jan 22, 2009)

hey can i just ask im not trying to cause trouble or anything...
if ur a jehovis witness... does that mean if ur kid is in hospital about to die and needs a blood transplant u wouldnt let them have it? and if u needed blood u wouldnt take it?

i went to a private christian and lutheran school and i hated it back then i was scared into being religous imo i belive in god BUT i dont agree with most of the stuff that is said these days and preached etc...

im mainly asking this because when i was in hospital sick with an extreemly low white blood cell count they were asking my religeous views etc i think that might have been because if i was a jehovis they have to double check if i want the blood or not???

someone please confirm this
tar!


----------



## waruikazi (Jan 22, 2009)

paleoherp said:


> Well I personally can't stand religion, It is such a primitive way of thinking and I truly believe it holds us back as a species. I hate the power of the church and places like the Vatican, it's like a country in itself.
> I can't stand the virus of faith which is past on by parents brainwashing their children and I find it sad that people think they have to endure this life to get to the next, and yes if I do worship anyone it is Richard Dawkins.
> *
> I also don't understand how people dismiss the theory of evolution put forward by Charles Darwin in 1859 in his book on the origin of species which by the way is my bible. The theory of evolution by natural selection has been tried and tested and tested again for over 150 years and finally confirmed with the discovery of DNA and the mapping of the human Genome.*
> ...



I hate to tell you this but evolution has not been 'proven' to be true and is still a theory. It is however comforting to know that there is sooooooooo much evidence for the theory to be true and has been accepted to be true because of the evidence. But it hasn't been proven, same as other theories like nuclear physics (like atoms and electrons and stuff) it can't be proven but it makes sense and there is a whole lot of evidence backing it so it is accepted. 

Man that was bad english... But i think my technical point gets across.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 22, 2009)

Lana, read my post just before yours!!!!! 

My true belief is, that if we indeed DO have free will, then why do we have to be cajouled and scared into believing something, just because other misguided souls do.

If we were to embrace anything, it would be so hard to choose.... now let me see.... if I don't become a catholic, I'm condemned to burn in hell for eternity. Not Anglican?? You'll NEVER be saved....... To avoid the Jewish faith condemns one to similar fates..

ohhhhhhhhhhh ........ SUCH choice!!!!!!!!


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## missllama (Jan 22, 2009)

oh and i belive in ghosts and reincarnation etc... so thats also what i ment by not beliving everying that thats said i still belive that theres a big man upstairs


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## missllama (Jan 22, 2009)

so can a parent really choose if there infant dies or not?? what age does someone get the right to make there own choice eg a 5yr old a 10yr old etc? without the parents saying no u cant have it or yes u can? i dont want to be rude to any jehovis witnesses but there is no way i could ever sit back and watch my kid or anyone die and not alow them to have transplants no matter what religeon i was

is there any jehovis witnesses on here who have been put in that situation before? and chose to let them have a transplant or chose not too?

id really like to hear from someone who has been in that situation before


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## abbott75 (Jan 22, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> The watchtower!!!!!!!!!???????? So all this is from the point of view of a jehovas witness.............. hmmmmm....... NOW this is getting good. I wouldn't give anyone from that faith time of day, nor take note of their ramblings, you see.....I believe in preserving life, NOT taking it. There is no way I would stand by and watch my child/brother/parent/husband die, simply because a PIECE OF PAPER tells me I cannot save their lives by allowing doctors to do what they can to save them, even if it meant blood transfusions and transplants. I don't CARE how much I might be preached to that it is not "god's will" or whatever the excuse is. Where is it ACTUALLY stated?? Which PIECE OF PAPER??
> 
> Someone earlier said that religious people who , in my opinion, spend their entire lives preparing to die, will be very disappointed when their time comes. AND, I add, realise just what a mistake they made in killing their own families.
> 
> Who is to say that is was NOT this gods will that peoples lives SHOULD be saved...... otherwise, why were they given the knowledge in the first place?? (and please, DON'T insult my intelligence by citing this free will rubbish. IF this god was supposed to be SO caring, he would do all he/it could to releive suffering)




PLEASE don't destroy this thread.

Yes, I'm a Witness, so obviously my comment's are from a witnesses POV. 

I am happy to answer (civilised) questions, but right now I'm going to bed, I have to go to work in the morning.


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## Australis (Jan 22, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> I hate to tell you this but evolution has not been 'proven' to be true and is still a theory.



Surely its come beyond a theory when its possible to test evolutionary processes within a lab?


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## KaneMortlock (Jan 22, 2009)

*...*



jessb said:


> I'm afraid I couldn't face reading your entire manifesto Kane Mortlock - sorry! But I will say that hearing voices is commonly recognised as a sign of mental illness.



Did I mention I'm a PhD candidate in psychology? 

Thanks for the tip on mental illness. More accurately stated; hallucinations and delusions are said to be symptoms of schizophrenia and other psychotic-type disorders.

Of course, to suggest that I was hallucinating, (or that I saw/heard something that wasn't really there), you would need to establish that what I said I saw and heard did not happen and wasn't really there - something you cannot do and have no evidence to prove.

Thankfully, the fact some people have jumped to an unevidenced conclusion that God does not exist does not make it so. So my questions to our friendly diagnosticians run something like:

1. Does God exist? (You don't know and proposing to answer "No" in the absence of any data to support such a conclusion is nothing other than a confession of your own unevidenced bias and weak intellect)
2. Is what I said I saw and heard possible? (Yes it is because you don't know if God exists and if God does exist then what I say I have seen and heard is perfectly possible)
3. Am I hallucinating? (You don't know because you don't know whether God exists and therefore whether what I have seen and heard is possible).

Thus, in my opinion the only people I rate as mentally ill to at this point are those who think someone not sharing their unevidenced worldview must therefore be mentally ill if they say something that contradicts it. 

I can just hear my colleagues at work now:
"We think he's hallucinating because if he's not then God exists ... and we weren't counting on God existing so we really hope he's hallucinating ..." :lol:

Honestly though, I thought I covered this one of three most obvious ways to play the man not the ball when I mentioned that several miraculous things that have happened to me also happened in front of several other people? That is, the group hallucination called reality ...

Try again. This time your mind might have to stretch a little further than an ill founded stereotype. I don't mean to be mean, and sorry if I sound surly, but I've just heard it before and it really is a soft option as an intellectual response to what I have said.


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## missllama (Jan 22, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> PLEASE don't destroy this thread.
> 
> Yes, I'm a Witness, so obviously my comment's are from a witnesses POV.
> 
> I am happy to answer (civilised) questions, but right now I'm going to bed, I have to go to work in the morning.




i dont mean to ask personal questions but i have always wanted to no someones opinion and i dont really have religeous friends etc that i can ask this

have u ever been in a situation where u have had to choose if someone lives or dies? and if u were in that situation say ur child or ur partner was going to what would u choose?

is it classified as a sin to let them have the transplant or is it just the views on life? im not sure how it all works

and do u guys have the same bible as christians or lutherans etc?

shows how much i learnt about religeon back in my school days lol!


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## Dipcdame (Jan 22, 2009)

Abbot, this thread was destroyed from the first post!!!!!!

WHat's your reason for not wanting it closed? Opportunity to preach and gain followers would be lost??

All I had to say I have already said, for fear of getting an infringement, or suspension, but I will say this, if ANY religion was SOOOOOOO good, no one would have to try to convert others, because they would all be there anyway, it wouldn't HAVE to be pushed down peoples throats. And here endeth the lesson from a former, confirmed "christian"!!


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## Australis (Jan 22, 2009)

Awww Dipcdame, they just want to save your soul -  
Kinda like when i needed to recruit 24 people for paintball
so i could go for free


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## =bECS= (Jan 22, 2009)

Australis said:


> Kinda like when i needed to recruit 24 people for paintball
> so i could go for free



Sounds about right :lol:


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## missllama (Jan 22, 2009)

i had religeon pushed down my throat 
the same wk my friend at schools dad killed himself, teachers were saying in bible class that people who kill themselves go to hell....
that sort of stuff messes with kids heads if u ask me and thats what we were.. just kids
and all this stuf about going to hell if u havent asked god into ur heart by a certain age
and all these scary stories
thats what messed with my head as a kid

after all of that is till think that someone is up there but i didnt like the way i was tought it

i dont like the public edu system but i dont want to send my kids to a religeous school i will tell them what i learnt but let them make there own choices

if god really loves us all... he wouldnt send anyone to hell! jmo
no matter what we do...


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## waruikazi (Jan 22, 2009)

Australis said:


> Surely its come beyond a theory when its possible to test evolutionary *processes *within a lab?



That's the point, some parts of the theory have been tested, recreated and observed and others haven't. Parts are supported by DNA sequencing, the fossil record etc etc. Which all throw so much support behind evolution that it has been accepted as true but it has not been proven (And i do believe in evolution). That's why it is still Darwin's Theory of Evolution not Darwin's Fact of Evolution.


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## Emzie (Jan 22, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> Someone earlier said that religious people who , in my opinion, spend their entire lives preparing to die, will be very disappointed when their time comes. AND, I add, realise just what a mistake they made in killing their own families.



this is the reason i choose not to follow the religion i was brought up or any other

i would hate to live my hole life a certain way in hope of something better and then it not come true

and if it was true (as jahovah witnesses believe you will live forever in paradise after armagetten) i would not want to live forever with people i dont like or get along with 

ild rather live my life how i want to now and when i die ill be buried in the ground being eaten by worms thats it (unless im cremated, then dust mites)


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## jessb (Jan 22, 2009)

KaneMortlock said:


> Try again. This time your mind might have to stretch a little further than an ill founded stereotype. I don't mean to be mean, and sorry if I sound surly, but I've just heard it before and it really is a soft option as an intellectual response to what I have said.


 
You ramble on for paragraphs about visions, hearing voices and feelings of invincibility and superiority. 

Hey, if it walks like a duck...


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## =bECS= (Jan 22, 2009)

jessb said:


> You ramble on for paragraphs about visions, hearing voices and feelings of invincibility and superiority.
> 
> Hey, if it walks like a duck...



Hehehehe i remember seeing a guy like that at In the middle of the road at The Big W near Chullora when i was a kid.
Holding a sign and rambling about seeing Jesus.......... I remember him screaming something like 'jesus is coming, he spoke me, repent, you are sinners etc' in the car window at the lights.

This resulted in my dad pulling up the hand brake and going to open the door to deck him, and my Mum giving my dad the look, which resulted in him putting his seatbelt back on :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now that i think back on it, im pretty sure he must have been down the road just before getting some pretty good tabs or something along those lines.


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## Australis (Jan 23, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> That's the point, some parts of the theory have been tested, recreated and observed and others haven't. Parts are supported by DNA sequencing, the fossil record etc etc. Which all throw so much support behind evolution that it has been accepted as true but it has not been proven (And i do believe in evolution). That's why it is still Darwin's Theory of Evolution not Darwin's Fact of Evolution.



Its called a theory, as thats appropriate scientific language, unfortunately.
The theory is the explanation of the process, supported by facts etc.
Like the theory of gravity (although some Christian groups think this is a lie
also, and that its gods work).


There isn't a particular burden of proof that will elevate it beyond a theory, 
as i kinda feel your implying?


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## waruikazi (Jan 23, 2009)

Australis said:


> Its called a theory, as thats appropriate scientific language, unfortunately.
> The theory is the explanation of the process, supported by facts etc.
> Like the theory of gravity (although some Christian groups think this is a lie
> also, and that its gods work).
> ...



That's about what i'm implying, but it is an important thing to remember when ur debating a creationist. It is one of the first things they will throw at you "Evolution can't be proved, ergo Creation is true." Like it is the only other possibility. 

:lol:


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> That's about what i'm implying, but it is an important thing to remember when ur debating a creationist. It is one of the first things they will throw at you "Evolution can't be proved, ergo Creation is true." Like it is the only other possibility.
> 
> :lol:


 

so you were stirring all along, right?


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## Adzo (Jan 23, 2009)

KaneMortlock said:


> Did I mention I'm a PhD candidate in psychology?


You would think a student of psychology would know better.
What would you say to people that have seen ghosts or U.F.O.'s?

Interesting read, at least no-one has employed the "Banana Argument" yet.

And just to lighten the mood a little...
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1406#comic
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1061#comic
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1356#comic
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=911#comic

Hover your cursor over the red dot under the comic.


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## DanTheMan (Jan 23, 2009)

KaneMortlock said:


> Thankfully, the fact some people have jumped to an unevidenced conclusion that God does not exist does not make it so. So my questions to our friendly diagnosticians run something like:



Unevidenced? I guess I wont bother, as I suppose you think that all these fossils and what not were all planted to prove you wrong. Pff, scientific evidence... who needs hard facts when you have a story book that tells of magic stories that once happened, but happen no more!

I should really mention that your opinion that god does exists is also unevidenced.


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## HoffOff (Jan 23, 2009)

- Of this thread


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## missllama (Jan 23, 2009)

lmao dylan!!!

no one answerd my questions tho... if there are any jehovas' on here if u dont want to post pm me because im genuinly wanting to know what you would do in that situation...


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## Ishah (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> The watchtower!!!!!!!!!???????? So *all this is from the point of view of a jehovas witness*.............. hmmmmm....... NOW this is getting good. I* wouldn't give anyone from that faith time of day, nor take note of their ramblings, you see*.....I believe in preserving life, NOT taking it. There is no way I would stand by and watch my child/brother/parent/husband die, simply because a PIECE OF PAPER tells me I cannot save their lives by allowing doctors to do what they can to save them, even if it meant blood transfusions and transplants. *I don't CARE how much I might be preached to* that it is not "god's will" or whatever the excuse is. Where is it ACTUALLY stated?? Which PIECE OF PAPER??
> 
> Someone earlier said that religious people who , in my opinion, spend their entire lives preparing to die, will be very disappointed when their time comes. AND, I add, realise just what a mistake they made in killing their own families.
> 
> Who is to say that is was NOT this gods will that peoples lives SHOULD be saved...... otherwise, why were they given the knowledge in the first place?? (and please, *DON'T insult my intelligence *by citing this free will rubbish. IF this god was supposed to be SO caring, he would do all he/it could to releive suffering)


 

I feel that is one of THE most disrespectful and rudest comments I have read so far on this thread! So JUST because they are JW's you are going to fob them off and not listen to a thing they have to say? Even if that means they may be the most knowledgeable person to date on reptiles and your only chance at saving one of your beloved pets OR your entire collection??? (Not saying that a JW is, but if they WERE...) I think that is one of the most discriminatory posts to ever see light of day! This is WHY it wasn't a public poll! Haha what if you found out that your best friend on here was a JW? Would you immediately stop ALL contact? From what you've said, I'd nearly think you most definately would!:shock:

You do realise that YOU are preaching your anti-religious and more-so anti-JW crap to them right? And you may be offending them with your harsh views and ideals, but do you see them going off at you and bringing you down? NO... They are obviously more civilised than you! And don't insult YOUR intelligence? YOU are just one person! Imagine all those JW's you are insulting right now! I seriously can't believe your level of intolerance and discrimination towards these harmless people!

Don't get me wrong, I'm of no religion/atheist, but I can still manage to be civilised and take what they have to say in a civilised conversation, just as they are taking in and accepting our views... Up until your posts came in here it was a civil healthy discussion! I just find it extremely irritating and frustrating.....If you hate it then don't post! Like many people I'm sure who share the same hate for this topic as you! Leave it be and stop bringing the thread down! If you don't want to look at it on your screen, then don't scroll down that far, or just don't look at it or even still don't log in? Or do you want everyone to be discussing your "another accident" thread or something instead and it is out of jealousy you want this thread closed?




Dipcdame said:


> Lana, read my post just before yours!!!!!
> 
> My true belief is, that if we indeed DO have free will, then why do we have to be cajouled and scared into believing something, just because other misguided souls do.
> 
> ...


 

Why do you have to be so harsh in your posts? Be civil! Can you do that? YES you obviously are passionate about your anti-religiousness, but then so is everyone else with their stance... the difference is, that they can still keep their cool and restrain themselves from going all out nutty on us!
But in reference to your post... If you are any religion and not another, you will always be offending someone and be "going to hell" for not being of another or you will be doing right by one religion which is seen as wrong to another... Hence being of none, you aren't really offending any and you are doing right by you...which is all that really matters... No need to result to name-calling and shunning people for their beliefs... You wont and cant change their stance, ESPECIALLY carrying on the way you are! And YES! The choice IS actually yours to make! No one is saying otherwise! Lucky there is so many for you to choose from, I'm sure there HAS to be one that caters to YOUR needs, or maybe there isn't and this is just you voicing your dismay at not being able to belong to one like everyone else? Is Non-religion/atheism not good enough for you? I would have thought it would have been perfect for you!




Dipcdame said:


> *Abbot, this thread was destroyed from the first post!!!!!!*
> 
> WHat's your reason for not wanting it closed? *Opportunity to preach and gain followers would be lost??*
> 
> All I had to say I have already said, *for fear of getting an infringement, or suspension*, but I will say this, if ANY religion was SOOOOOOO good, *no one would have to try to convert others, because they would all be there anyway*, it wouldn't HAVE to be pushed down peoples throats. And here endeth the lesson from a former, confirmed "christian"!!


 


This thread was only destroyed from the first post to YOU as religion is something you are not capable of discussing in a civil manner, nor are you open to the opinions and views of others....Many people are actually enjoying the civil discussion! And actually want the thread to stay open... Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it has to be closed because you said so or want it to be! You aren't the most important member on this forum, nor is anyone else!

Just a question here, based on your "theory"... HOW would people know which is a/the "good" religion if no one is allowed to talk about it or teach people about their religion aka preach to people as you so affectionately call it? There would be NO followers of ANY religion if they did not get the word out in some way, shape or form!

I quite frankly am surprised you have not yet got an infraction/suspended yet for your intolerant comments and hateful posts towards certain religions/religious views of others! If I were a JW (the ones you have targetted in particular in your attacks), I would be deeply offended by you and what you have said! If you don't like the topic and the thread was destroyed from the very first post, then WHY CONTRIBUTE TO A DESTROYED THREAD IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH????


To answer some of the questions of "If god is so good and blah blah blah, then why hasn't he saved these people and stopped all the killing and pain in the world...(or something to that tune)?"

As I understood it, Gods turn to rule was ages ago and when the devil/satan confronted him and everything saying that he isn't running the world right or something like that... god said, "Ok, I will let you rule for a period of time and in that time I will stand back and watch, not interfere, but I know you will not succeed and all hell will break loose etc etc... But when you have reeked enough havoc to cause the destruction of the world causing much pain, suffering and death, and everything is destroyed, and you have had your turn, you will no longer exist and I will start over and all my true followers and the truely goodhearted people will be reincarnated and all creatures big and small will live in peace and harmony with each other, and nothing will be killed, no one will feel pain or suffering ever again etc etc etc..." Or something to that tune, its all a bit fuzzy as its been so long...LOL! My mum is a JW and she has preached to me many times about it and that's what helps her cope with all the pain, suffering and destruction in the world... and for some people that piece of mind is what they need to get through life. She would be able to quote that part of the bible or whatever to you all off by heart I'm sure! I know I haven't got it exactly right, but then who can blame me? This is coming from a non-religious person going off stuff they learnt/got drilled into them for years, since they were 4yrs old... I think the last time mum told me that particular story was a year or two ago...She tries not to preach to me or dad as she knows we are not religious, and every time we have a discussion about it, she kind of gets a little offended and says "I try not to offend you by preaching my religious views on you guys, yet you're still preaching to me your non-religion" Or something like that... It kind of makes you think... And it IS really true... 

So please try to be more tolerant and understanding Dipcdame, they are of you!....Even some of the athiests/non-religious people like me, are! Give them that same respect back instead of blindly dishing it out!

My rant over...


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## Ishah (Jan 23, 2009)

missllamathuen said:


> i dont mean to ask personal questions but i have always wanted to no someones opinion and i dont really have religeous friends etc that i can ask this
> 
> have u ever been in a situation where u have had to choose if someone lives or dies? and if u were in that situation say ur child or ur partner was going to what would u choose?
> 
> ...


 

Not sure about christians or lutherans, but catholics have an "edited" version of the bible from which they teach from... it is changed to suit their needs etc and apparently it says on it something like "Catholic version of the bible, not the real bible" or something like that... its been soooo long since school... Will ask mum about it tomorrow, she knows... 

I'll also ask her about the blood transplant/transfusion thingo tomorrow for you if you want, I'm sure ur not the only one wanting to know a JW's POV... 

She isn't a baptised or "true" JW, but has been learning and going to readings etc for YEARS...since I was like 7 or something...She tries her best to live by it, but she's not perfect, and she's definately not a hardcore follower taking everything as *can't seem to think of the right word...its on the tip of my tongue i swear it!...mind blank at this time of nite lol* "do as I say or you shall die!" type thing... She still occasionally swears and drinks one or two, maybe more every day depending on her stress levels lol etc but she IS trying as much as she can to do the right thing by her religion which is the important thing...She knows God knows not everyone is perfect and it is hard to try and reprogram yourself after years of doing it a different way and as long as she is doing her best and genuinely trying, god will see that and forgive her for her sins...and he knows I am a good person deep down same with my brother etc. and I try to do the right thing (by me and most people) so me being non-religious he will forgive too I think thats what she's counting on...hehehe

Sorry rambled on a bit there lol...


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## natrix (Jan 23, 2009)

I sometimes wonder about the 'dumb' (for lack of a better word) human need for religion.

The main problem as I see it is that as soon as there are more than 1 member , the trouble starts & the concept of hierachy comes into play pretty quickly.

Reading over the posts , there are a whole bunch of people that want to sign-up to
"The Church of Snakeology" ---that's a fun idea of-course , but............

If there is that 'dumb' need , I reckon the best way to go is for each individual to make up their own . You name your god , write your own scripture & tenets etc , decide on the components of your rituals & your clothing or whatever & Bob's your uncle.
But don't tell anyone else , coz they might wanna join & that's where the trouble starts.

I'm an Atheist these days ; But I was once a member of 'The Church Of BHP' and worshipped the Deity Melacephalus while wearing a black hood & sacrificing a garden
skink . Then I'd snort a big line of powdered BHP urate & curl up on my electric blanket &
going into a sort of dream state where I'd imagine myself biting Steve Irwin in the eye.

The Christian , or Old Testament thing must be a bit of a dichotomy for Herpers .
Here we are knowing that reptiles have been arounf for a few hundred million years & the Old Testament says that the Universe was created , what , 6 thousand yaers ago ! ?

Anyway , Just got home from a gig & felt like babbling a bit .


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## gman78 (Jan 23, 2009)

Good to see there is still some sane people out there.
63% is a good number of non believers


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## Ishah (Jan 23, 2009)

Gman, don't forget that some who put "other" are in that 63% of "No religion/atheism" as "No religion/atheism" wasn't an option when the poll was first made... It was only after 10-20 people had already voted and asked where the "No religion/atheism" option was that it was added...Making it actually MORE than 63% that are sane lol. And given that you can only vote on a poll once, and you can't change your vote once you click "vote now", A few of us were stuck with "other" and hence the statistics went out the window to a degree...


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## natrix (Jan 23, 2009)

cockney red said:


> Their is only one true God. His name is Sir Alex Ferguson.


 
Or George Best !


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## Earthling (Jan 23, 2009)

KaneMortlock said:


> Thankfully, the fact some people have jumped to an unevidenced conclusion that God does not exist does not make it so. So my questions to our friendly diagnosticians run something like:
> 
> 1. Does God exist? (You don't know and proposing to answer "No" in the absence of any data to support such a conclusion is nothing other than a confession of your own unevidenced bias and weak intellect)
> 2. Is what I said I saw and heard possible? (Yes it is because you don't know if God exists and if God does exist then what I say I have seen and heard is perfectly possible)
> ...


 
*Please reread:*

Thankfully, the fact some people have jumped to an unevidenced conclusion that my Garden Fairy out the back does not exist does not make it so. So my questions to our friendly diagnosticians run something like:

1. Does my Garden Fairy out the back exist? (You don't know and proposing to answer "No" in the absence of any data to support such a conclusion is nothing other than a confession of your own unevidenced bias and weak intellect)
2. Is what I said I saw and heard possible? (Yes it is because you don't know if my Garden Fairy out the back exists and if my Garden Fairy out the back does exist then what I say I have seen and heard is perfectly possible)
3. Am I hallucinating? (You don't know because you don't know whether my Garden Fairy out the back exists and therefore whether what I have seen and heard is possible).


I can just hear my colleagues at work now:
"We think he's hallucinating because if he's not then my Garden Fairy out the back exists ... and we weren't counting on my Garden Fairy out the back existing so we really hope he's hallucinating ..." :lol:

Isnt it interesting your 'argument' can be proven very weak, simply by substituting your 'god' for another creature of mass delusion.


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## redbellybite (Jan 23, 2009)

EARTHLING ...me personally would of gone with them garden gnomes, more popular and they seem to turn up in the most unusual places other then in your garden .....like say on a ferry or on a boogie board at Manly beach...even at the local police station  ( and sorry for all the hurt I caused for taking the garden gnome and getting pictures and sending them to you MRS GRAHAM but we was kids and it was the 80's,see ya cant trust good honest catholic school girls:evil::evil::evil


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## Moreliaman (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> _I'm afraid I couldn't face reading your entire manifesto Kane Mortlock - sorry! But I will say that hearing voices is commonly recognised as a sign of mental illness._




Are you calling my imaginary friend a liar ????:shock::shock:


(its ok freddie i know your real)


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## Jewly (Jan 23, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Genesis 2:15-17: "And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E´den to cultivate it and to take care of it. And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. *But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.*"
> 
> Seems pretty clear to me


 
From reading that, what is clear is that he lied to them because they *did* eat from the tree and they *didn't* die, they were given a completely different punishment which again is not fair. Who knows...maybe they wanted to die. Some people do make that choice in life.

Also, like I said previously, not only did he punish them but he punished every person who came after them. How is that fair? Should I be punished for the sins of my great grand-parents, people I never even knew?

Anyway, IF there is a god, he certainly isn't someone that I respect or would want to worship.


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## Jay84 (Jan 23, 2009)

I also cant believe ur HATE and aggression DIPCDAME. is it really necessary? i dont think it is. this thread has been a great debate, why bring it down?

as for you comments about preaching that if ur bad ull burn in hell for eternity, you'll be pleased to know that Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) DO NOT preach this. In the bible it does not say anything about that. from dust you came and to dust you will return, im sure you remember that line?

as for blood transfusions, im not entirely clear. as iv said before it has been some 6 years since i stopped goin to the meetings (church). but what would you say to the parents of the little girl on tv about a month ago. she wanted to stop taking her medication. i cant remember what her illness was, but to stop takin her meds she was going to die. why dont u all go and make hate comments about that poor girl and her family?

please, before u make HATE comments, ask questions to know the facts first. if you then find it disagreeable feel free to say so, in a diplomatic way.


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## abbott75 (Jan 23, 2009)

I'll have to make this quick because I have to go.



missllamathuen said:


> i dont mean to ask personal questions but i have always wanted to no someones opinion and i dont really have religeous friends etc that i can ask this





> have u ever been in a situation where u have had to choose if someone lives or dies?


Personally, no.


> and if u were in that situation say ur child or ur partner was going to what would u choose?


Remember, we believe that if you happen to die faithful, we will be rewarded by God. Death is not scary when you believe it is not the end of everything.

Taking that into account, we would not accept the transfusion.



> is it classified as a sin to let them have the transplant or is it just the views on life? im not sure how it all works


There are numerous scriptures on the sanctity of blood, I don't have time to quote them right now but can come back with the later if you'd like.



> and do u guys have the same bible as christians or lutherans etc?


We are Christians 

We have the 'same' Bible, but we use a different translation than most. All the content is the same, just translated into modern English. Much easier to read!



Dipcdame said:


> WHat's your reason for not wanting it closed? Opportunity to preach and gain followers would be lost??



Dipcdame - I'm going to disregard the rest of your intolerant ramble and answer that one question. I want that thread to remain open because myself and a few other members are enjoying a healthy debate of each others views. I don't think I have "preached" at all on this thread, all I have done is answer questions other members have put forward.

Now, I wont be back home til about 7pm. Can you guys please not get this thread locked?


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Are you calling my imaginary friend a liar ????:shock::shock:
> 
> 
> (its ok freddie i know your real)


 
Hey, my 3.5yo daughter's imaginary friend Henry seems to be responsible for a lot of the stuff that goes on around here - I can't discount the possibility of his existence, as I have no hard evidence that he isn't eating all the biscuits and insisting that we play Hungry Hungry Hippos _again._


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## missllama (Jan 23, 2009)

thanks ishah and abbot makes a fair bit more sence now

what i wanted to know is sif i die a jahovis, and it turns out that the big man up theres ways are really ment to be the catholic ways would that mean i go to hell according to what is taught by the jahovis people?

or does it not really matter if ur christian anglican or jahovis either way u belive in god so ur doing the right thing?

i really dont get what the difference is between all of them 

i mean at the end of the day its one person up there so does it honestly matter which one u are? or is it just because u have a few different ways about life or something

all i know is that back in school i was taught that if u dont ask him into ur life ur going to burn for ever 
pretty wierd that they would tell tiny kids that but still i dont get it if thats just what the lutherans belive or maby the jahovis' are different?

i might be confusing everyone im just trying to work out if there is really any differences between them all

ARGH RELIGEOUS TALK CONFUSES ME!


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## Moreliaman (Jan 23, 2009)

Sarah24 said:


> wow...i never realised how many atheists there were...just looking at the poll shows a clear majority...people (like my family) would always say that i was bad for being atheist and that i should follow the right way and be christian...hmmm...



It is a proven fact that atheists far out number people with religion, but because its a silent majority it never gets noticed.

I also disagree with anyone forcing their children or another person into a religion, they should present them with the options & let them decide.


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## missllama (Jan 23, 2009)

oh and ps imo i really dont belive in hell i dont think that anyone would put anyone thru what i was told happends if they truley are a god.

cheers


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## waruikazi (Jan 23, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> It is a proven fact that atheists far out number people with religion, but because its a silent majority it never gets noticed.



Not in the US i can't remember the exact stats but i think it is more than 2/3 believe in creation and take the bible literally word for word. That's kinda scary considering they are the world's super power.


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## Moreliaman (Jan 23, 2009)

You maybe right there mate, but i was including the whole world & not just 1 country.


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## Slateman (Jan 23, 2009)

I don't like this type of topics, they usually create hate and brake friendships.

I added another option to poll just to see if our hobby is changing to religion. You newer know.
Sorry abbot for interacting.


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## waruikazi (Jan 23, 2009)

Slateman said:


> I don't like this type of topics, they usually create hate and brake friendships.



I recon we've been pretty good this time Slatey. I've even made a new facebook friend out of this thread. But really religion would be a bore without a bit of love and hate.


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## Slateman (Jan 23, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> I recon we've been pretty good this time Slatey. I've even made a new facebook friend out of this thread. But really religion would be a bore without a bit of love and hate.


Must say that I am surprise. Pleasantly.


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## Pythonking (Jan 23, 2009)

oh slate i've already voted and i can't vote again


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## Jay84 (Jan 23, 2009)

Hey Slateman, i think there are quite a few questions that ppl are interested to have answered to understand or see others points of views. i think its been quite tame apart from a couple of select people. Please dont close a thread due to a couple of comments. Im waiting for Abbott to come home from work to hear his responses.!


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## Eriquar (Jan 23, 2009)

I believe religion is a personal thing. and should be kept that way... I don't to hear about it or have it forced upon me.


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## domdom22 (Jan 23, 2009)

im a christadelphian


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## Earthling (Jan 23, 2009)

Eriquar said:


> I believe religion is a personal thing. and should be kept that way... I don't to hear about it or have it forced upon me.


Its a shame there are not more people like you.
Unfortunately we live in a country which has laws governed by 'religion'.
The law also regulates religous customs on us.
Very sad indeed.


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## miley_take (Jan 23, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Then they were not Perfect.


 

Who defines perfect?


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## [email protected] (Jan 23, 2009)

as long as your a good person then it doesn't matter what religion you are, and with in Australia different cultures that have different beliefs are slowly coming too terms. though i remember once this time some Muslim woman insisted that they have one of the indoor public pools to them selves so that they could undress with out sin, and that it was to be rostered once a week. some where on the gold coast , it made a lot of people angry. I do think though people that come in our country they should respect our way of living.


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## moosenoose (Jan 23, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> as long as your a good person then it doesn't matter what religion you are, and with in Australia different cultures that have different beliefs are slowly coming too terms. though i remember once this time some Muslim woman insisted that they have one of the indoor public pools to them selves so that they could undress with out sin, and that it was to be rostered once a week. some where on the gold coast , it made a lot of people angry. I do think though people that come in our country they should respect our way of living.



Totally agree with everything you've written.

I think when other peoples religious beliefs impact on others then it's not really acceptable IMO. People can believe what they like as far as I'm concerned, but when it interferes with my lifestyle or others that's when the problems start. 

I can't understand why people can't just get along and live peacefully without all the whoo-har! Why does it have to be so hard??


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## Chris1 (Jan 23, 2009)

my god, 23 pages!! 

does this hold the record for the longest thread ever?


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## dailyskin (Jan 23, 2009)

miley_take said:


> Who defines perfect?


 
Perfect means without flaw. And they were flawed in the eyes of 'god' for wilfully disobeying his orders.


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## Moreliaman (Jan 23, 2009)

sparky said:


> Deal with it, love him or perish in the eternal flames of hell.



I certianly hope i burn in hell......i cant play a harp !

Although i dont believe in any kind of god or creator....i do believe that someone called jesus could have existed, the longer the human species lives the more we learn, go back 2000 years and we understood less about how things work or why things happen.....in my opinion jesus was like....paul daniels or any other illusionist/magican....he managed to do things people couldnt explain at that time.

Plus add a bit of chinese whispers....hey presto...1 book about him.

When i was at school our religious teacher made us sit in a circle & whispered something in the boys ear next to him and told him to pass it round.......by the time it got back to the teacher (30 pupils later) it was completly different to what he'd originally said !


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> I certianly hope i burn in hell......i cant play a harp !
> 
> Although i dont believe in any kind of god or creator....i do believe that someone called jesus could have existed, the longer the human species lives the more we learn, go back 2000 years and we understood less about how things work or why things happen.....in my opinion jesus was like....paul daniels or any other illusionist/magican....he managed to do things people couldnt explain at that time.
> 
> ...



THAT'S EXACTLY what my dad always said!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Hear Hear!!!!!!!! I'm with you!!!!!!!


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## HoffOff (Jan 23, 2009)

miley_take said:


> Who defines perfect?


My sexy body


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## dailyskin (Jan 23, 2009)

Fishnerd, do you mean your 13 year old sexy body? So, so wrong...


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## HoffOff (Jan 23, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Fishnerd, do you mean your 13 year old sexy body? So, so wrong...


xD Very wrong indeed


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## Schlumpe (Jan 23, 2009)

I guess I will be seeing a lot of you in Hell as I believe the Temps there are better for reptiles.:lol:


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## Moreliaman (Jan 23, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> I suppose you think that all these fossils and what not were all planted to prove you wrong. Pff, scientific evidence... who needs hard facts when you have a story book that tells of magic stories that once happened, but happen no more!



Now and then we get the god squad knocking our doors round here, unfortunately (for them perhaps) im not the kind of person to just say im not interested & shut the door, im quite happy to stand there and question them (after all they knocked my door & proceded to force their beliefs in my face) I asked one of them about fossils & they replied....God put them there to confuse us !! ....GREAT....gods messing with our heads now!! how evil can you get ? ! :lol:

Also we still do get some of the ''magic'' that was written in the book....it's just that now most can be explained......plagues of locusts, flies, mice, frogs...etc etc....tsunamis (giant waves) droughts, earth quakes...etc etc.....


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## Tukka (Jan 23, 2009)

if there's a god! I havn't seen him yet!


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Now and then we get the god squad knocking our doors round here, unfortunately (for them perhaps) im not the kind of person to just say im not interested & shut the door, im quite happy to stand there and question them


 
I had some JW's come to my door a little while ago - a pair of lovely ladies I was more than happy to politely disagree/argue with. They were foolish enough to suggest that I should submit to my husband's authority in our marriage as he was the head of the household. :shock: Well, you can imagine how that went down... :lol:


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## Moreliaman (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> I should submit to my husband's authority in our marriage as he was the head of the household.



REALLY ??? is that what they believe ??? :shock::shock:

Errrr...... are there any single female jehovah's witnesses on here looking for love ??
(would help if they also had an imaginary friend..freddie's looking for love too)


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## dailyskin (Jan 23, 2009)

There are many, many, many religions that believe that. I would go so far as to say a majority, to some extent.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> I had some JW's come to my door a little while ago - a pair of lovely ladies I was more than happy to politely disagree/argue with. They were foolish enough to suggest that I should submit to my husband's authority in our marriage as he was the head of the household. :shock: Well, you can imagine how that went down... :lol:



That can be interpreted in so many dangerous ways, just like that muslim cleric who only yesterday stated that a man should force his wife to have sex, and it didn't matter if she didn't want it, and that it was ok to hit her if she disbeyed................... now THAT'S scary, coming from a faith that says it promotes peace!!!!


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## missllama (Jan 23, 2009)

yea bevy i saw that on the news how rediculous!!! it was absolutely disgusting


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## channi (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> That can be interpreted in so many dangerous ways, just like that muslim cleric who only yesterday stated that a man should force his wife to have sex, and it didn't matter if she didn't want it, and that it was ok to hit her if she disbeyed................... now THAT'S scary, coming from a faith that says it promotes peace!!!!


 Coming from a single man who claims to represent that faith and if you read the rest of the story you would know that his claim was rejected by most muslims, now if you want to talk about promoting peace why don't you start it???


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## dailyskin (Jan 23, 2009)

There are nutters from all religions. One opinion doesn't represent an entire religion! MOST Muslims I know don't feel that way at all!

And I know plenty of Athiest morons who probably do! You can't really generalise!


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## cockney red (Jan 23, 2009)

Please rename this site, Atheists, Pythons, & Snakes.


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> That can be interpreted in so many dangerous ways, just like that muslim cleric who only yesterday stated that a man should force his wife to have sex, and it didn't matter if she didn't want it, and that it was ok to hit her if she disbeyed................... now THAT'S scary, coming from a faith that says it promotes peace!!!!


 
I know, what an idiot! Aside from the problems I have with the content of his speech (although keep in mind many Anglo-Australian men believed the same thing until only a generation or two ago - some still do...) I can't believe he thought it would be a good idea. I mean don't they have a PR department at the mosque or something? It's like he sat down with the other imams and said, "Now, let's work out how we can make Australian Muslims look as bad as possible. What should I say at prayers this week which will offend/outrage everyone?"

Moreliaman, that was what these two women were telling me, although I have no knowledge of JW scripture. If it is based on Christian scripture, however and hasn't been modernised to suit current Western culture (as some Christian churches have) then I imagine it will look at women as pretty lowly in the scheme of things - certainly lower than men. 

Apparently the fact that I earn more than my husband, take responsibility for paying all the bills, registering the cars, organising daycare, swimming lessons, vet visits etc (he is a great father, caregiver and husband btw just not particularly organised or dynamic!) he should still have the final say in all decisions by virtue of the fact that he has a penis and I don't! 

And THAT is why I'm an atheist! :lol:


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> There are many, many, many religions that believe that. I would go so far as to say a majority, to some extent.


 
Oooh, look at your new avatar pic!!! It seems congratulations might be in order!!


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## dailyskin (Jan 23, 2009)

Ha they are a bit old, but we only recently got the pics on disk from the photog, so renewed excitement!


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## dailyskin (Jan 23, 2009)

Of course, hubby is thrilled now that we are married - because he can force me to have sex and beat me


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Of course, hubby is thrilled now that we are married - because he can force me to have sex and beat me


 
Thanks - cordial just came out my nose all over my keyboard! :lol::lol::lol:


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## cockney red (Jan 23, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> Of course, hubby is thrilled now that we are married - because he can force me to have sex and beat me


Just goes to prove, you can never tell someones religion from a wedding photo.


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## moosenoose (Jan 23, 2009)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Emzie (Jan 23, 2009)

missllamathuen said:


> thanks ishah and abbot makes a fair bit more sence now
> 
> what i wanted to know is sif i die a jahovis, and it turns out that the big man up theres ways are really ment to be the catholic ways would that mean i go to hell according to what is taught by the jahovis people?
> 
> ...



the JW's dont believe in hell so if you die a non believer/sinner you simple are buried and have no remembrance of life, and they only believe a 144000 go to heaven who have already been choosen, the rest will live in paradise for the rest of there lives ie never die, this is after armagetten 

ok now the confusing part - if your dead before armagetten then you will be resirected into the new paradise world and then in 1000 years there will be another 'test' and the people who are still non believing will be killed

if catholic was the true religion and you was a practicing JW then i guess if you died you would go to hell according to the catholic faith......


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## Emzie (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> I had some JW's come to my door a little while ago - a pair of lovely ladies I was more than happy to politely disagree/argue with. They were foolish enough to suggest that I should submit to my husband's authority in our marriage as he was the head of the household. :shock: Well, you can imagine how that went down... :lol:


thats no an actual rule

everyone are different and take things more seriously, i knew a girl who wasn't even allowed out of her drive way or not allowed to talk to the kids in the street where as my mum let me go out with school friends and do what i want
some people are real weird and stricked about it, my mum is easy going though she drinks, goes out to the pubs and in the city with friends she swears now and then and was always easy going with me, and she has always been fine with my decision not to follow the religion, she knows my bf and that ive had sex before marriage i was pretty lucky


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## ShAdY12 (Jan 23, 2009)

Atheist.... but in the the process of converting to snakeology


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## tooninoz (Jan 23, 2009)

Bill Hicks had a great take on Christianity (and all the sub-species);

"People ask me what I think about that woman priest thing. What, a woman priest? Women priests. Great, great. Now there's priests of both sexes I don't listen to."

"If you're so pro-life, do me a favour: don't lock arms and block medical clinics. If you're so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries."

"A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a ****** cross? It's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a rifle pendant."

"Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief. It's a very interesting defense mechanism and the only way to get by it -- and believe me, I was raised Southern Baptist -- is to take massive amounts of mushrooms, sit in a field, and just go, "Show me."

"The whole image is that eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love. That's the message we're brought up with, isn't it? Believe or die! "Thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options.' "


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## cockney red (Jan 23, 2009)

Toon, you've depressed me so much, i'm off to pick some Mushrooms.


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

tooninoz said:


> "A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a ****** cross? It's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a rifle pendant."


 
Best quote EVER!!! :lol::lol::lol:


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## sparky (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> That can be interpreted in so many dangerous ways, just like that muslim cleric who *only yesterday* stated that a man should force his wife to have sex, and it didn't matter if she didn't want it, and that it was ok to hit her if she disbeyed................... now THAT'S scary, coming from a faith that says it promotes peace!!!!



You should re read that news article. How long ago did he say it?

This type of news story only, 3 days before australia day is just downright unaustralian. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24950526-5006785,00.html


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## megrim (Jan 23, 2009)

I wondered when the marvelous Mr Hicks would pop up in here ^_^.

Bill Hicks, Margaret Cho and George Carlin, directed by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens could've cleared up all this religion nonsense in about an hour.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

sparky said:


> You should re read that news article. How long ago did he say it?
> 
> This type of news story only, 3 days before australia day is just downright unaustralian. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24950526-5006785,00.html



.......... and being in the news only last night brought it to mind when obedience of wives was mentioned. Didn't realise there were things that were un-australian to discuss before Australia day. A priest I knew used to speak of Jesus' death and resurrection before christmas, and his birth just before easter............................ just didn't realise things like protecting women from brutal husbands was un-australian


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## Moreliaman (Jan 23, 2009)

megrim said:


> Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens could've cleared up all this religion nonsense in about an hour.


Its not religious nonsense if it's your belief though, anyone has a right to a belief, aslong as they dont go around ramming it into peoples heads.


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## sparky (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> .......... and being in the news only last night brought it to mind when obedience of wives was mentioned. Didn't realise there were things that were un-australian to discuss before Australia day. A priest I knew used to speak of Jesus' death and resurrection before christmas, and his birth just before easter............................ just didn't realise things like protecting women from brutal husbands was un-australian



So you beleive that the reviving of this story 5 years after it happened wasnt simply a low tactic to stir racist tensions in the wake of australia day.


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## megrim (Jan 23, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Its not religious nonsense if it's your belief though, anyone has a right to a belief, aslong as they dont go around ramming it into peoples heads.



It's nonsense to me. 

I'm sure it's not nonsense to a believer  I can see I'm going to have to start adding "IMO" to everything.

Edited because at second glance, it was a little nastier looking than I meant


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

sparky said:


> So you beleive that the reviving of this story 5 years after it happened wasnt simply a low tactic to stir racist tensions in the wake of australia day.



Not to my mind, no, but I don't look for ulterior motives, and I don't know the full reason it was brought up, hubby came in and told me last night when it was on the news. It matters not when it was publicised though, if I'd remembered it at the earlier comment about obedient wives by the door knockers, I'd have mentioned it anyway!!!!!! Demonstrating that religious views can be misinterpreted by individuals with many followers/listeners who embrace what they say. It's not a good thing for anyone to say at any time, is it????


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## sparky (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> Demonstrating that religious views can be misinterpreted by individuals with many followers/listeners who embrace what they say.



Any evidence to suggest this? The video shows an amputheater with about 5 people in the audience and just becaus they were there when he said it, doesnt mean they were listening and it definatly doesnt imply that they embraced it.

Im not really looking for altererior motives. Its just when a 5 year old news story re-surfaces for what seems like no reason, somthing else must be going on...


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## tooninoz (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> Best quote EVER!!! :lol::lol::lol:



Nah, his best one was the bit about confronting a christian about dinosaurs ...I'd quote it, but there's swearing and it'd be edited 'for the sensitive types' and I'd get a bloody infraction as well.
Its on YouTube if you care. It also has the great quote;

"Ever notice how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? . . . Their eyes real close together. Eyebrow ridges. Big, furry hands and feet. 'I believe God created me in one day.' Looks like he rushed it.'"
'Hicks' and 'dinosaur' in Youtube will bring it up


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

sparky said:


> Any evidence to suggest this? The video shows an amputheater with about 5 people in the audience and just becaus they were there when he said it, doesnt mean they were listening and it definatly doesnt imply that they embraced it.
> 
> Im not really looking for altererior motives. Its just when a 5 year old news story re-surfaces for what seems like no reason, somthing else must be going on...



Evidence??? How about Hitler??? The guy who was instrumental in the Jamestown "suicides", David Koresh, of whatever his name was with the Davidians..................... to cite just a couple of many!!!!!!!


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## natrix (Jan 23, 2009)

I take the view that I don't necessarily have to respect some one's religion --indeed , there are many facets of many religions that I find sickening and completely unworthy of any respect what-so-ever....BUT , I think it's important to respect another persons religious beleifs .....respect that the other guy likes that particular story book.


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## daniel1234 (Jan 23, 2009)

sparky said:


> So you beleive that the reviving of this story 5 years after it happened wasnt simply a low tactic to stir racist tensions in the wake of australia day.


 
I see your point, but it doesn't make him any less of an idiot.


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## cris (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> I know, what an idiot! Aside from the problems I have with the content of his speech (although keep in mind many Anglo-Australian men believed the same thing until only a generation or two ago - some still do...) I can't believe he thought it would be a good idea. I mean don't they have a PR department at the mosque or something? It's like he sat down with the other imams and said, "Now, let's work out how we can make Australian Muslims look as bad as possible. What should I say at prayers this week which will offend/outrage everyone?"



This is an example of where religion crosses the line of what should be tolerated. The idea of keeping women as pets is quite offensive to modern Australian culture, however they are only preaching their religion. Some Christian sects also treat women like pets. However it is only really the most primative small minded biggots who still follow these sort of things, many religious ppl are quite sensible and dont cause any bother to anyone. IMO anyone claiming to represtent any god/s should have to pass a test that would kill a human without divine intervention, until then any talk of mythical creatures or gods should be treated as the fiction it is.

I often wonder though, is it the ones who stick at their religion in its true form(eg. flat world, no gravity, pet women, evolution etc.) or the ones who keep changing it to keep up who are the worst? What ever happened to the Greek and Roman gods? they were pretty cool i reckon.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

cris said:


> This is an example of where religion crosses the line of what should be tolerated. The idea of keeping women as pets is quite offensive to modern Australian culture, however they are only preaching their religion. .



That's why it's dangerous, because their leaders say it should be so, they blindly believe it!!!!!!! Female circumcision is promoted as a spiritual/religious thing, predominantly in Africa, but because those who still listen, hundreds, or thousands of young girls suffer this cruel mutilation. I could wax lyrical for a long while, but it's enough to know such blind faith happens!


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## abbott75 (Jan 23, 2009)

Sorry for taking so long everyone!



missllamathuen said:


> what i wanted to know is sif i die a jahovis, and it turns out that the big man up theres ways are really ment to be the catholic ways would that mean i go to hell according to what is taught by the jahovis people?



Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell .



miley_take said:


> Who defines perfect?


God. He created us, so I would say he would have a pretty good idea of perfection .



Moreliaman said:


> REALLY ??? is that what they believe ??? :shock::shock:


Yes, but subjection in a loving and caring war. Not cruel or in a 'slave/master' sense. 



tooninoz said:


> "A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a ****** cross? It's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a rifle pendant."


:lol: I like that . Just FYI, JW's don't use idols, as per scripture.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Sorry for taking so long everyone!
> 
> 
> 
> Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell .



so, if Missllamathuen dies a Jehovas Witness, as she asked, and it turns out the catholics were indeed right instead, then she would indeed burn in hell, as was stated!!!!!!!!! (cause it was the catholics that were right in this hypothetical scenario


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## abbott75 (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> so, if Missllamathuen dies a Jehovas Witness, as she asked, and it turns out the catholics were indeed right instead, then she would indeed burn in hell, as was stated!!!!!!!!! (cause it was the catholics that were right in this hypothetical scenario



Sorry, I misunderstood her question. When she said


> would that mean i go to hell according to what is taught by the jahovis people?


 I thought she meant that JWs teach a hell doctrine, which the don't.

As for weather a JW would go to hell if Catholicism is the true religion, I guess you'd have to ask a Catholic :lol:


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## missllama (Jan 23, 2009)

haha u no what
now theres something i like about the jahovis witness religeon now!
THEY DONT BELIVE IN HELL
i wish i was told that in primary school instead of every 2nd thing i do im going to go to hell for lol!

thanks for explaining that tho guys
religeon confuses me TOO MUCH my head spins out every time i read something about religeon thats why i avoided this topic for the first 10 or so pages lol


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## missllama (Jan 23, 2009)

oh yea and if there is any catholics or lutherans that can tell me the whole senario of what in there opinion happends if say i was a jahovis or maby a lutheran or a catholic one of the other and i turned out to be wrong

whats the deal in the end?

they all belive in the same god dont they??

so i really dont get how there any different still


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## megrim (Jan 23, 2009)

missllamathuen said:


> oh yea and if there is any catholics or lutherans that can tell me the whole senario of what in there opinion happends if say i was a jahovis or maby a lutheran or a catholic one of the other and i turned out to be wrong
> 
> whats the deal in the end?
> 
> ...




I'd be interested to hear about Lutherans. All I know of it is from a Simpsons holloween episode. Something about tiny people in a tub nailing something to the door of a cathedral.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 23, 2009)

PMSL megrim...................... look up Martin Luther ( not the junior of USA fame) ... he was the martyr who was nailed to a cathedral door!!!!!


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## abbott75 (Jan 23, 2009)

missllamathuen said:


> they all belive in the same god dont they??
> 
> so i really dont get how there any different still



The Bible actually foretells this. Some scriptures that illustrate the point are:



1 Timothy 4:1-3 said:


> However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, *paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons*, by the *hypocrisy of men who speak lies*, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.





Acts 20:29-30 said:


> I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and* from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves*.





Matthew 24:10-14 said:


> Then people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and *You will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name*. Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. *And many false prophets will arise and mislead many*; and because of the increasing of lawlessness t*he love of the greater number will cool off.* But he that has _endured to the end_ is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.



Many religious doctrines have deviated from the Bible so much that it can be hard finding any scriptual backing for them. Witnesses pride themselves on sticking exactly to what the bible teaches, not their own views.

But I'll stop this post now, don't wanna be accused of preaching!


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## waruikazi (Jan 23, 2009)

But surely you wouldn't go to hell for beleiving the 'wrong' sect. I mean they all say put your faith in Jesus Christ, repent and you will be saved. ???


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## megrim (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> PMSL megrim...................... look up Martin Luther ( not the junior of USA fame) ... he was the martyr who was nailed to a cathedral door!!!!!




Oh my :shock:

In the Simpsons a piece of paper was nailed to a door. I had no idea it was so gory.


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## waruikazi (Jan 23, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> The Bible actually foretells this. Some scriptures that illustrate the point are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So the Bible foretold of the Mormons... :lol:


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## baxtor (Jan 23, 2009)

surely the creationists among us question why we would be created with a brain because they sure as hell don't use their own. 
I cannot even imagine living YOUR life having all aspects of it dictated by what is written in what amounts to the biggest selling work of fiction ever published.


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## rash (Jan 23, 2009)

> they all belive in the same god dont they??
> 
> so i really dont get how there any different still



There is only one god, and from a Jehovah's witness point of view, there is only one way to worship him. The way he wants us to. Different religions have different views on what the bible is telling us though, and therefore He is worshiped in different ways. We believe only one of these ways is right.


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> PMSL megrim...................... look up Martin Luther ( not the junior of USA fame) ... he was the martyr who was nailed to a cathedral door!!!!!


 
HE wasn't nailed to a door, he nailed up a list of issues that he had with the Catholic Church (his _95 Theses_ - ie selling of indulgences,the wealth of the clergy, the Bible only being in Latin, the concept that peole needed priests to commune with god etc) up on the door of the local Church. He died of old age decades later.


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## megrim (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> HE wasn't nailed to a door, he nailed up a list of issues that he had with the Catholic Church (his _95 Theses_ - ie selling of indulgences,the wealth of the clergy, the Bible only being in Latin, the concept that peole needed priests to commune with god etc) up on the door of the local Church.


 Oooohhhh, that makes significantly more sense then  .

On 'wealth of the clergy', I saw the pope make an adress some time ago about the trappings of material wealth, and that it leads to spiritual malnourishment and unhappiness.

Then they showed some of the interior of the chambers where he lives and I though "Gee, the pope must be the unhappiest and most spiritually malnourished man on earth".

Those catholics sure like their gold-leafing.


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## channi (Jan 23, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> That's why it's dangerous, because their leaders say it should be so, they blindly believe it!!!!!!! Female circumcision is promoted as a spiritual/religious thing, predominantly in Africa, but because those who still listen, hundreds, or thousands of young girls suffer this cruel mutilation. I could wax lyrical for a long while, but it's enough to know such blind faith happens!


 Who blindly believes what? It seems to me that you blindly believe what the media preaches to you. 
As for female circumcision it is a cultural thing so has no place in a religious thread. You have real live muslims telling you that they, and all others they know disagree with this "cleric" but you continue to hold on to your unfounded beliefs, if you can do it why can't we. If blind faith bothers you so much please feel free to stop practicing it.


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## jessb (Jan 23, 2009)

megrim said:


> Oooohhhh, that makes significantly more sense then  .
> 
> On 'wealth of the clergy', I saw the pope make an adress some time ago about the trappings of material wealth, and that it leads to spiritual malnourishment and unhappiness.
> 
> ...


 
That is one of my major problems with the Catholic Church. They will happily take an Irish mammy's last tenner in the collection plate, or a couple of coins from a poverty-stricken Brazilian family, while their bureaucracy live among the most obscene ostentation you could possibly imagine. It makes me quite sick to think about.

The wealth of the Catholic Church is inconceivable (if you have ever seen the Vatican/Sistine Chapel you will know that they could sell 10% of their artwork and feed the world's hungry - I believe the Catholic Church are the biggest landowners in the world too.)

I also love the fact that Catholic nuns take a vow of chastity, obedience and *poverty*!!! So the women have to be married to god and live in bare cells, but the blokes in charge get draped in gold and jewels, have people falling at their feet and kissing their hands! This sums up religion for me.


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## megrim (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> I believe the Catholic Church are the biggest landowners in the world too..



At the very least, I admire Catholocism as a business model. They even have a seat at the U.N.


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## abbott75 (Jan 23, 2009)

jessb said:


> That is one of my major problems with the Catholic Church. They will happily take an Irish mammy's last tenner in the collection plate, or a couple of coins from a Brazilian family, while their bureaucracy live among the most obscene ostentation you could possibly imagine. It makes me quite sick to think about.
> 
> The wealth of the Catholic Church is inconceivable (if you have ever seen the Vatican/Sistine Chapel you will know that they could sell 10% of their artwork and feed the world's hungry - I believe the Catholic Church are the biggest landowners in the world too.)
> 
> I also love the fact that Catholic nuns take a vow of chastity, obedience and *poverty*!!! So the women have to be married to god and live in bare cells, but the blokes in charge get draped in gold and jewels, have people falling at their feet and kissing their hands! This sums up religion for me.



This type of hypocrisy is what turns a lot of people away from religion. Maybe they should read Mark 10:21!



> Jesus said to him “One thing is missing about you: Go, sell what things you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower.”


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## cooper123 (Jan 23, 2009)

lemonz said:


> In the old versions of the bible, it was a serpent that encouraged eden to eat the 'friut, nbot a snake. myself being a christian, i would like someone to point out to me where in the bible it says" do not have snakesas pets, they are evil" because last time i checked, it didnt say it. also, a religion " jedi" whats that about? considering it came from a movie, i dont know how some people take it serisously, athough some of you are joking
> 
> I have nothing against athiests, and i am not a dorr knocker, nor a bible basher. i will encourage people to be better people, and if they decide to become a christian, thats there decision. i believe everyones inerpretation of religion is different. That is where the arguments come into play.
> 
> ...




yeh jedi came from a movie and and christionism (???) came from a book what is the difference there there is fictional books aswell as movies.


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## Moreliaman (Jan 24, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Moreliaman* 

 
_REALLY ??? is that what they believe ???







_




abbott75 said:


> Yes, but subjection in a loving and caring war. Not cruel or in a 'slave/master' sense.



Damn....ok....ignore that request !!!


Is it true...jesus only rose from the dead at easter so no-one could nick his easter eggs ???


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## jessb (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> This type of hypocrisy is what turns a lot of people away from religion. Maybe they should read Mark 10:21!


 
Yes, but abbot I don't believe there are any religions which actually embody this idea. Giving away all your worldly possessions to follow god is a nice idea, but there are very few individuals who would be capable of it, and certainly not an entire church full!!!


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## Moreliaman (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> This type of hypocrisy is what turns a lot of people away from religion. Maybe they should read Mark 10:21!



LMAO....abbott....hypocrisy doesnt even enter into it, you still couldnt make me believe there was a creator.

At the end of the day.....all religions are a dying belief....since the day the human race started to understand its own existance, faith or belief in every religion has fallen every year and will continue to do so until it dissapears totally.


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## Australis (Jan 24, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Is it true...jesus only rose from the dead at easter so no-one could nick his easter eggs ???



I heard he wasn't missing the pagan spring festivities, dead or alive


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## Ishah (Jan 24, 2009)

channi said:


> Who blindly believes what? It seems to me that you blindly believe what the media preaches to you.
> As for female circumcision it is a cultural thing so has no place in a religious thread. You have real live muslims telling you that they, and all others they know disagree with this "cleric" but you continue to hold on to your unfounded beliefs, if you can do it why can't we. If blind faith bothers you so much please feel free to stop practicing it.


 
Channi, didn't you know we have another Horsesrule on our hands?:lol:



Moreliaman said:


> Is it true...jesus only rose from the dead at easter so no-one could nick his easter eggs ???


 
Bahahahahahahahaha! I bet that's not the first time that question has been asked! Wonder how many teachers have had that asked to them? LOL!


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## Vat69 (Jan 24, 2009)

jessb said:


> Yes, but abbot I don't believe there are any religions which actually embody this idea. Giving away all your worldly possessions to follow god is a nice idea, but there are very few individuals who would be capable of it, and certainly not an entire church full!!!



The fact that (lots of?) scriptures are littered with contradictions and un-truths that require 'interpretation' means you get to pick and choose, dontcha' know. Win


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## lasnakess (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm so so sory to inform all of you that "God is dead". Yes Nietzsche was a prophet. God saw what he created (in 6 DAYS) and realized what a mistake it was, shook is head and asked Superman to fly him to Mars where he would take his time in creating new life, practice makes perfect after all. A young girl named Angel (that's me), chased after the unholy god and killed him. So now we all know why bad things happen to good people. With Angel and Satan as the only supreme beings, humanity is screwed.

That's the start of my new translation of gensis, it strays from the original just a bit but makes much more sence don't you think? It's a book so it must be hystorically correct right.

:lol::lol::lol:

Why hasn't Satanism been added to the poll yet? It's a credible religion. It has it's own church and everything so it must be a religion!:lol::lol:

Indulging in your own desires instead of abstaining from them makes more sense.


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## Moreliaman (Jan 24, 2009)

Heres another angle to throw in the mix....How do you know the bible wasnt written by someone in the future, who came back in time and planted it to change the course of history ????


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## lasnakess (Jan 24, 2009)

I still like mine better...That's religion for you...piggheadedness (it's a word im sure of this...just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not a word)...besides I'm a supreme being now so I've made it a word. Wow everything is credible when you're a supreme being


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## =bECS= (Jan 24, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> That can be interpreted in so many dangerous ways, just like that muslim cleric who only yesterday stated that a man should force his wife to have sex, and it didn't matter if she didn't want it, and that it was ok to hit her if she disbeyed................... now THAT'S scary, coming from a faith that says it promotes peace!!!!





jessb said:


> I know, what an idiot! Aside from the problems I have with the content of his speech (although keep in mind many Anglo-Australian men believed the same thing until only a generation or two ago - some still do...) I can't believe he thought it would be a good idea. I mean don't they have a PR department at the mosque or something? It's like he sat down with the other imams and said, "Now, let's work out how we can make Australian Muslims look as bad as possible. What should I say at prayers this week which will offend/outrage everyone?"





Dipcdame said:


> Not to my mind, no, but I don't look for ulterior motives, and I don't know the full reason it was brought up, hubby came in and told me last night when it was on the news. It matters not when it was publicised though, if I'd remembered it at the earlier comment about obedient wives by the door knockers, I'd have mentioned it anyway!!!!!! Demonstrating that religious views can be misinterpreted by individuals with many followers/listeners who embrace what they say. It's not a good thing for anyone to say at any time, is it????





Dipcdame said:


> That's why it's dangerous, because their leaders say it should be so, they blindly believe it!!!!!!! Female circumcision is promoted as a spiritual/religious thing, predominantly in Africa, but because those who still listen, hundreds, or thousands of young girls suffer this cruel mutilation. I could wax lyrical for a long while, but it's enough to know such blind faith happens!



You will find that the majority of Muslims have rejected his comments, and they are comments of one mans opinion.
Its people like this who always seem to make the spotlight, the media will always spin things into the direction they want, never telling the full story.

The Qur'an if _literally_ translated into English can have several different meanings, as one word in Arabic can mean or represent different things.

I read a comment earlier in this thread where someone mentioned wanting to read the Bible and Qur'an etc to see the differences/similarities.
If you want to do this, PLEASE be sure to find a copy that is translated 'into english meaning' and not a literal word for word translation.

Also there are requirements that you be clean etc when you read/hold/touch the Qur'an, please read up on these things also.




jessb said:


> Yes, but abbot I don't believe there are any religions which actually embody this idea. Giving away all your worldly possessions to follow god is a nice idea, but there are very few individuals who would be capable of it, and certainly not an entire church full!!!



Ramadan is the 3rd pillar of Islam, a month in which Muslims do not eat or drink during daylight hours.

For Muslims, Ramadan is not merely a holiday, but an opportunity to gain by giving up, to prosper by going without and to grow stronger by enduring weakness. 
Also, fasting is a way of experiencing hunger and developing sympathy for the less fortunate, and learning to thankfulness and appreciation.

We are also required to donate to charity or give Zakaat, which im sure you will find most muslims do and are more than happy to do so.


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## hallie (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> You will find that the majority of Muslims have rejected his comments, and they are comments of one mans opinion.
> Its people like this who always seem to make the spotlight, the media will always spin things into the direction they want, never telling the full story.
> 
> The Qur'an if _literally_ translated into English can have several different meanings, as one word in Arabic can mean or represent different things.
> ...


 
I think we should all donate to some sort of charity, whatever it may be regardless of faith or belief...

Havent read this whole topic but isnt ramidan similar to what monks do when they go to live in a convent kind of like exile and give themselves to god, except for a longer period?

Some sections of the jewish faith also do a similar thing to ramidan on certain days i think?


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

jessb said:


> That is one of my major problems with the Catholic Church. They will happily take an Irish mammy's last tenner in the collection plate, or a couple of coins from a poverty-stricken Brazilian family, while their bureaucracy live among the most obscene ostentation you could possibly imagine. It makes me quite sick to think about.


 
This reminded me of something from my childhood. I can remember going up to my mother when I was about 8 and showing her a letter from the school about an upcoming excursion and asking if I could go but she told me she couldn't afford it. Funnily enough though, at the time she was shoving a $20 note in an envelope that her church had given her. (This is 30 years ago when $20 was a lot of money). The school I went to didn't organise many excursions and it was awful having to stay behind on my own while all my friends went off and had a great time. For all her hard work in trying to force me into becoming a christian, this one act was probably the start of me turning away from it.

This church not only would pass around the plate for everyone to donate money to during the service, but they 'pre-printed' envelopes with surnames so that they knew just how much everyone was giving. Then they would stand at the door as you walked in so you could hand it over.


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## redbellybite (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> This reminded me of something from my childhood. I can remember going up to my mother when I was about 8 and showing her a letter from the school about an upcoming excursion and asking if I could go but she told me she couldn't afford it. Funnily enough though, at the time she was shoving a $20 note in an envelope that her church had given her. (This is 30 years ago when $20 was a lot of money). The school I went to didn't organise many excursions and it was awful having to stay behind on my own while all my friends went off and had a great time. For all her hard work in trying to force me into becoming a christian, this one act was probably the start of me turning away from it.
> 
> This church not only would pass around the plate for everyone to donate money to during the service, but they 'pre-printed' envelopes with surnames so that they knew just how much everyone was giving. Then they would stand at the door as you walked in so you could hand it over.


we all know priests like wearing the latest ARMANI..................went to a catholic school all my life ....the HYPOCRISY......was what opened my eyes ! and alot are like that only have to be a good christian on SUNDAYS......religion is the root of all evil.....I ask you this, why is it a nessesity that you feel your better then anyone else? why do we have to "kiss the popes ring" is he better then you or I ? if you were truely a follower of JESUS then why are you not living the basic life that he led? he didnt get driven around in a bullet proof pope mobile , he didnt wear red shoes he didnt have people kiss his lavish ring,,,,he was given a crown of thorns and beaten for his beliefs and crucified for his beliefs from other "religious"people that claimed what they believed was the truth...and history repeated itself again and again how many die because of what they truely believe in?...catholics and protestants...muslims...etc the holy groups of war mongers....if that it what believing in religion is about then I am glad that its not in my immediate life ....you want compassion you want TRUE faith? then focus on the people that work with the helpless that give aid to the homeless without expecting anything in return ..their your true christians their your true beliefs they are doing "GODS" WORK!...........


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## HoffOff (Jan 24, 2009)

28 pages and still going good!.


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## Riley (Jan 24, 2009)

im definatley christian, anglican.


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Biblebashers are just up the top of my street now. Just in case they're a new bunch' and haven't experienced the warm welcome, to be expected at No.1, I've got the hose all ready to go.:evil:


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

Lol...will serve them right too. Arrogant 'you know whats' thinking they have the right to preach their opinions to others.

I once had some bible bashers walk past my front yard and then they decided to walk over to me. They asked me was my dog friendly (huge red cattle x staffy) and I said she was, but then when they were in between me and the dog I said, 'oh but she has been known to attack without warning in the past' (total lie) and they took off running..lol


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## Jay84 (Jan 24, 2009)

A couple of posts a few pages ago commented on Catholicism and the vatican and about catholicism being more of a business than a religion. I totally agree. I went to the Vatican last year and found the wealth of the church disgusting in comparison to the poverty of the followers. You paid a fee to enter the vatican, i asked the tour guide how much revenue they get per day and it was around 500, 000 euro! calculate this over the course of a year and you ask yourself why they arent providing food for the developing countries and feeding the starving, instead of covering everything in gold leaf!!! that is hypocrisy, they preach about material wealth being detrimental to your spiritual wealth yet the men in power live like kings????

now as i said before i was bought up a JW, i no longer go to meetings so cant be considered a Jehovah's Witness anymore. But from seeing the way the bible is followed to the scripture i can honestly say there is no hypocrisy in the religion. They dont partake in wars, many earlier Jehovah's Witnesses have been thrown into jail for not fighting in the world wars. They do not force you to giv money. The 'elders' as they call them do not gain monetary incentives like the pope. So when you talk about hypocrisy it helps if you actually know something about the religion first. Alot of ppl are quick to start blasting accusations without knowing the facts.


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## Riley (Jan 24, 2009)

yeah i dont agree with Catholics in a lot of things; as i think most anglicans will agree with me. But yeah im anglican


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## Jay84 (Jan 24, 2009)

cockney red said:


> Biblebashers are just up the top of my street now. Just in case they're a new bunch' and haven't experienced the warm welcome, to be expected at No.1, I've got the hose all ready to go.:evil:



Why do you have to behave like this? Do you react like this to every stranger who comes to your door? A salesman trying to sell their product or sign you up to something? They have been told by their employer to do this work.

So why, be so rude to religious people knocking on your door. yes you may find it annoying. just politely ask them to leave and say you are not interested. all they are doing is following the instruction in the bible ''go and make disciples of men''.


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## jessb (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> Ramadan is the 3rd pillar of Islam, a month in which Muslims do not eat or drink during daylight hours.
> 
> For Muslims, Ramadan is not merely a holiday, but an opportunity to gain by giving up, to prosper by going without and to grow stronger by enduring weakness.
> Also, fasting is a way of experiencing hunger and developing sympathy for the less fortunate, and learning to thankfulness and appreciation.
> ...


 
Sure, I acknowledge that in theory Islam has some great concepts, especially zakaat (which is the equivalent of tithing in catholicism) but look at the Islamic church as a whole - corrupt men in charge (same as every religion); imams who are focused on power and politics instead of faith; and connections between fundamentalist mosques and fanatical terrorist groups.

Whether you put this down to "man twisting god's word" or there is another excuse, the religion is still nothing more than a way to control masses of people, allow the men in charge to do what he want by interpereting the bible (or koran) to suit them and gain power and influence. 

Any ideal which is subject to human interference and involves having power over a large number of people will end up corrupt and greedy which is why religion is an unnecessary burden in today's society.


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> Lol...will serve them right too. Arrogant 'you know whats' thinking they have the right to preach their opinions to others.



Umm, You know we live in Australia, right? They _do_ have a right to come to your door and speak to you. Just the same as you have the right to do the same.


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> Why do you have to behave like this? Do you react like this to every stranger who comes to your door? A salesman trying to sell their product or sign you up to something? They have been told by their employer to do this work.
> 
> So why, be so rude to religious people knocking on your door. yes you may find it annoying. just politely ask them to leave and say you are not interested. all they are doing is following the instruction in the bible ''go and make disciples of men''.


Another trait missing in God botherers, a complete lack of a sense of humor.

No i dont have a go at salesmen, because they are doing what they have to do, to earn a crust.

I do resent the botherers knocking on my door uninvited, and peddling inane verbal diarrhea, from a piece of fiction written at a time when, dragons were carrying off people in the dead of night, and the world was flat, and the average person would believe anything they were told. If i want to talk religion i'll go to any one of the billion outlets worldwide, and talk to the salesman on site.


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## Slateman (Jan 24, 2009)

snake fanatics came to this poll late, but we are taking over Scientology and matching Muslim religion.
Not bad for late starters.
I assume that snake fanatics will be atheists in real world anyway.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Umm, You know we live in Australia, right? They _do_ have a right to come to your door and speak to you. Just the same as you have the right to do the same.


 

I say what happens in my home and they DO NOT have the right to come to my private residence and preach to me. Most of them will not take no for an answer and will continue to try and harass you. I've had one of them even stick their foot in my door to try and stop me from closing it.

Salespeople get similiar treament. If I wanted their product I would search it out.

I don't feel I have the right to bother someone in their own home and I would NEVER drop in on a friend of relative without ringing first because it's just plain rude not to.


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## Jay84 (Jan 24, 2009)

cockney red said:


> Another trait missing in God botherers, a complete lack of a sense of humor.



i apologise, you cant hear tone of voice in typing and seeing as i dont know u personally so dont know whether ud be joking or serious. sorry. 

and by the way i am not a 'god botherer' lol and i do have a sense of humour.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> Why do you have to behave like this? Do you react like this to every stranger who comes to your door? A salesman trying to sell their product or sign you up to something? They have been told by their employer to do this work.
> 
> So why, be so rude to religious people knocking on your door. yes you may find it annoying. just politely ask them to leave and say you are not interested. all they are doing is following the instruction in the bible ''go and make disciples of men''.


 

So, if I have a piece of paper that tells me to go out and shoot a dozen people, does that mean I am allowed to do it? The bible might be sacrid to you, but I think it's the biggest load of rubbish ever printed.

People who don't believe in god are usually fed up to the back teeth of do-gooders trying to get them to change their opinion, and so over the years have grown very intolerant of those who feel that they are right and have to go around and tell everyone else they're wrong.

It's arrogance, pure and simple.


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## Jay84 (Jan 24, 2009)

If mormons, JW's or any other religious or sales ppl come to my door i just tell them im not interested. Most of the time i offer them a glass of water and they leave. they are doing what they are instructed to do. and its australian law that permits this, not just cos its written in a book.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

I would have thought going onto someone's property unannounced and unwelcome would be called trespassing and I do believe there is a law against that.

I just found this on the legal aid website for Queensland. 

*Can someone trespass on my property?*
_Trespass is going onto or staying on land without the permission of the owner or the person that is allowed by law to be there. Trespass can include burrowing under land, things that hang over the land (such as signs or a crane) and dumping things on land. _

*Who can come onto my property?*

_Certain people can by law come onto your property even if you do not want them to. Police, bailiffs, gas, electricity and telecommunications staff, post office delivery staff, and health and agricultural inspectors are some of the people allowed by law to come onto your property. It is not trespass if a person comes onto your property to build or repair a fence, or to put out a fire._ 
_The law accepts that if you are a home owner or tenant, you will generally agree to any person entering your property using the usual point of entry to reach the front door, unless there is a sign that says you do not agree to this._

So, all you have to do it put up a sign that says, 'No salespeople or religious people allowed' and they can't legally come onto your property.

I think I might have to make up a little sign of my own.


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## Riley (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> So, if I have a piece of paper that tells me to go out and shoot a dozen people, does that mean I am allowed to do it? The bible might be sacrid to you, but I think it's the biggest load of rubbish ever printed.
> 
> People who don't believe in god are usually fed up to the back teeth of do-gooders trying to get them to change their opinion, and so over the years have grown very intolerant of those who feel that they are right and have to go around and tell everyone else they're wrong.
> 
> It's arrogance, pure and simple.


well first of all, obviously not; if a piece of paper tells you to go out and shoot a dozen people, it doesnt mean your allowed to do it. But where in the Bible does it tell you to do anything like that? Its completely the opposite. And why is it the 'biggest load of rubbish ever printed'? How is it rubbish?

People who don't believe in God are usually fed up of Christians explaining what they have to say to them because usually (and not all the time) , people who don't belive in God haven't heard/read the right stuff about Christians and therefore usually get the wrong idea. And im sure christians dont come around to everyones door and tell them that theyre wrong and that they have to believe in this stuff; but instead i bet they just tell you their oppinion and that its your decision.

An atheist once said to me, you just believe in this stuff because you've grown up learning about it and thats why you belive. I said to him the same, you've been living not learning about it and you dont know what its all about therefore how can you judge? I've been learning about it and know both sides of the story, especially the Christian side, and that seems right, so thats my choice. 

No ones forcing you to believe in anything.


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> I say what happens in my home and they DO NOT have the right to come to my private residence and preach to me. Most of them will not take no for an answer and will continue to try and harass you. I've had one of them even stick their foot in my door to try and stop me from closing it.


They come to your front door, they will only ever go inside if invited. If you make it clear that you don't want to talk, they will leave. I can't speak for every religious person that speaks door-to-door, but a JW would never try to stop you closing you door.


> Salespeople get similiar treament. If I wanted their product I would search it out.


How are you to know about there product if someone doesn't tell you?



> I don't feel I have the right to bother someone in their own home and I would NEVER drop in on a friend of relative without ringing first because it's just plain rude not to.


A friend or relative is different. When you visit one of them, it is assumed that you will be going inside. When salesmen and religious preachers come to your door, they aren't usually expecting to get any further than the door. They just want to speak to you, and will leave if you ask them too.


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## Jay84 (Jan 24, 2009)

There is a law against it. as long as it is between 9am and 9pm it is legal. i was a door to door sales person for a month. lol you can enter the property, NOT break in obviously lol


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## jessb (Jan 24, 2009)

jessb said:


> I had some JW's come to my door a little while ago - a pair of lovely ladies I was more than happy to politely disagree/argue with. They were foolish enough to suggest that I should submit to my husband's authority in our marriage as he was the head of the household. :shock: Well, you can imagine how that went down... :lol:


 


abbott75 said:


> Yes, but subjection in a loving and caring war. Not cruel or in a 'slave/master' sense.


 
Hmmm, still doesn't work for me, strangely enough! :lol:


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> I would have thought going onto someone's property unannounced and unwelcome would be called tresspassing and I do believe there is a law against that.



The Law Institute Of Victoria's website says 


> Meter readers, postal workers, delivery people and salespeople are *not guilty of trespass* unless they *refuse to leave when requested*.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

Riley said:


> well first of all, obviously not; if a piece of paper tells you to go out and shoot a dozen people, it doesnt mean your allowed to do it. But where in the Bible does it tell you to do anything like that? Its completely the opposite. And why is it the 'biggest load of rubbish ever printed'? How is it rubbish?
> 
> People who don't believe in God are usually fed up of Christians explaining what they have to say to them because usually (and not all the time) , people who don't belive in God haven't heard/read the right stuff about Christians and therefore usually get the wrong idea. And im sure christians dont come around to everyones door and tell them that theyre wrong and that they have to believe in this stuff; but instead i bet they just tell you their oppinion and that its your decision.
> 
> ...


 
Ahhh but you see, even though I know that no one can force me to believe in anything I don't want to, some of the christians around me, THINK they have the right to continually try and get me to change my opinion and 2 members of my own family are the worst culpruits.

I never said that the bible tells anyone to go out and kill people but an earlier post said that biblebashers were just doing what the bible told them to do. Anyway, I challenge you to show me anyone who follows the bible to the letter because most religious people I know, pick and choose what parts they want to believe and follow.

I was raised a christian and I was baptised as a baby but I have made a conscience decision not to follow that path in life because it makes me feel so uncomfortable because I just can't abide by a lot of what goes on at churches. Some of their basic beliefs are fine and usually most people who are decent people follow that way of life, such as treat others like you'd like to be treated, etc. 

My biggest problem with religian is that people who believe in religian have an arrogance that makes them feel that they are the only ones who are right and that everyone else is wrong and is a sinner. You don't see many athiests going around trying to change people's minds about their faith. I believe everyone has the right to believe in what they want and if they gain comfort from that, then I'm happy for them, but personally I don't gain anything by putting my faith in an unseen god. I have faith in me because to be honest, I'm the only one I can truly trust in life to do the right thing by me.


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## notechistiger (Jan 24, 2009)

Riley said:


> People who don't believe in God are usually fed up of Christians explaining what they have to say to them because usually (and not all the time) , people who don't belive in God haven't heard/read the right stuff about Christians and therefore usually get the wrong idea.* And im sure christians dont come around to everyones door and tell them that theyre wrong and that they have to believe in this stuff*; but instead i bet they just tell you their oppinion and that its your decision.



You obviously haven't had many doorknockers  I've had quite a few indeed, and each and every one of them as told me that I'm wrong to believe in what I do (nothing, that is), and that I need to believe in the bible.

Just so you know, I did indeed "try" to be a Christian. Went to Church and read the bible and the like. But, I realised just how "brainwashing" it was when I started studying philosophy.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 24, 2009)

megrim said:


> Oooohhhh, that makes significantly more sense then  .
> 
> On 'wealth of the clergy', I saw the pope make an adress some time ago about the trappings of material wealth, and that it leads to spiritual malnourishment and unhappiness.
> 
> ...



The catholics are one of the main religions that proved themselves as hypocritical when the now pope declared the new commandments, where people should practice paverty and give up the longing for material things and wealth................... it's the catholic church that is the most powerful, and the richest organisation on earth...........................and has the largest collection of pornography in the vaults at the vatican, along with statues and paintings, not all to do with religion. They own so much wealth, it makes that commandment an absolute joke.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

The first thing I do when someone comes to my door unannounced is I ask them are they here about religian and quite a lot of the time they will lie but if you continue letting them speak, it's pretty clear they are talking about religian. That's when I shut the door and walk away. A lot of them have sneaky ways of drawing you into a conversation or baiting you into an argument.


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> My biggest problem with religian is that people who believe in religian have an arrogance that makes them feel that they are the only ones who are right and that everyone else is wrong and is a sinner. You don't see many athiests going around trying to change people's minds about their faith. I believe everyone has the right to believe in what they want and if they gain comfort from that, then I'm happy for them, but personally I don't gain anything by putting my faith in something as a god. I have faith in me because to be honest, I'm the only one I can truly trust in life to do the right thing by me.



Please don't take my comments the wrong way, I'm not trying to be an arrogant religious type, just trying to reason with everyone .

But honestly, if you firmly believed that your views were right you would want to let people know. Again, I can't speak for other religions, but JWs don't preach to people just to prove we are right. We do it out of love for the people in the world. We believe that the only way to, essentially, save people's lives to to bring them to an accurate knowledge of God. We don't want _anyone_ to die (even people who like to turn on the hose :lol, so we continually speak to people. Believe it or not, every day new people, who likely have said "not interested" for years, decide to listen and often become believers.

Even in territory where people never listen, we still preach. It is a command from our god, and part of our worship.

As for atheists not trying to change religious people's views, have you been on the internet lately ? Atheists are worse than Christians in that regard! :lol:


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## notechistiger (Jan 24, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> and has the *largest collection of pornography* in the vaults at the vatican, along with statues and paintings, not all to do with religion.



Where would you get the _accurate_ information to back that up?


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> As for atheists not trying to change religious people's views, have you been on the internet lately ? Atheists are worse than Christians in that regard! :lol:


 
People have the right to voice their opinions and they can put whatever they like on the net, within reason.

The big difference is, I don't have to have it shoved down my throat when I open my own front door. For me to see something on the internet I have to search it out. I've been using the internet for years and not once have I seen a religious site, cause I choose not to go on them. 

Don't get much of a choice though when some nutter's at the door with their foot stopping you closing it. He, on the other hand had a choice...he could choose to leave his foot there or he could choose to have a vase smacked over his head.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 24, 2009)

To all, I have a very relevant question, and I'd like an answer to this:

If the bible is to be believed, then in the beginning, god created adam and eve, they had two sons.... with me so far?? Now, of the two sons, cain and abel, cain was said to slay abel ok? So we now have adam, eve, and cain. It is at this point it gets confusing, cause cain then "took himself a wife"..................... where the HECK did SHE come from????


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## Jay84 (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> The first thing I do when someone comes to my door unannounced is I ask them are they here about religian and quite a lot of the time they will lie but if you continue letting them speak, it's pretty clear they are talking about religian. That's when I shut the door and walk away. A lot of them have sneaky ways of drawing you into a conversation or baiting you into an argument.



thats a fair enough response. i would do the same if my request was ignored. shutting the door and walkin away is all thats needed. no abuse or name calling. 

just like telemarketers, if they dont listen, hangup..... and yes i used to do telesales too! hahaha


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> People have the right to voice their opinions and they can put whatever they like on the net, within reason.
> 
> The big difference is, I don't have to have it shoved down my throat when I open my own front door. For me to see something on the internet I have to search it out. I've been using the internet for years and not once have I seen a religious site, cause I choose not to go on them.
> 
> Don't get much of a choice though when some nutter's at the door with their foot stopping you closing it. He, on the other hand had a choice...he could choose to leave his foot there or he could choose to have a vase smacked over his head.


Hope he kept his foot in the door.:lol:


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## Adzo (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> As for atheists not trying to change religious people's views, have you been on the internet lately ? Atheists are worse than Christians in that regard! :lol:


Gotta admit, religious types do their fair share to keep intelligent, free thinking people away themselves.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page

No, everyone is _born_ Christian. Only later in life do people choose to stray from Jesus and worship satan instead. Atheists have the greatest "cover" of all, they insist they believe in no god yet most polls done and the latest research indicates that they are actually a different sect of Muslims.


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## English (Jan 24, 2009)

cockney red said:


> Biblebashers are just up the top of my street now. Just in case they're a new bunch' and haven't experienced the warm welcome, to be expected at No.1, I've got the hose all ready to go.:evil:



tongue in cheek or not.. your comments throughout this 'amazing' thread have been pretty derogatory towards a large group of people - i understand that you dont agree with religion, i just think if you approached it differently your views would be appreciated and accepted.. i always say if you don't like what you read, stop reading it and find something else to do that will tickle you pink!



i have just had JW attend my door - i answered, they told me who they were and i said i have my own beliefs, they nodded and told me to have a lovely day.. no hassle answering the door, no hassle if they wanted to share what their love with me.. i was thinking to myself 'bugger you're a bit of cutie fancy a date later?" 

i actually look at it all as a beautiful thing.. that someone is so passionate in their beliefs that they want to share it with me and care enough about a complete stranger to spend their free time to spread their word.

muslim, christian, jewish, or other.. be happy in your beliefs and share them as you must.. if i got a moment i am open to listen and reject if needed with respect.

just got through watching the youtube series on Khaled Yasin, Christiantiy, Islam, and God that was posted in this thread - an amazing man who speaks well and with conviction - clearly rejects some of the writings of christianity but does not reject the notion of mary and jesus - just the interpretation. 

would love to hear him speak someday!

the key to everything.. respect.


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## Jay84 (Jan 24, 2009)

English said:


> tongue in cheek or not.. your comments throughout this 'amazing' thread have been pretty derogatory towards a large group of people - i understand that you dont agree with religion, i just think if you approached it differently your views would be appreciated and accepted.. i always say if you don't like what you read, stop reading it and find something else to do that will tickle you pink!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thumbs up to you English


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> People have the right to voice their opinions and they can put whatever they like on the net, within reason.
> 
> The big difference is, I don't have to have it shoved down my throat when I open my own front door. For me to see something on the internet I have to search it out. I've been using the internet for years and not once have I seen a religious site, cause I choose not to go on them.



I don't actually visit religious sites, so I wouldn't know. What I was actually referring to were comments on a social news site I sometimes visit. (I'm not going to mentions the site - I'm not sure of APS's rules on mentioning other sites without admin permission).

Hardcore atheists on that site (and I'm sue many others) go out of there way to attack anyone who could possibly believe in a god. Now I know there are some zealot 'Christians' out there, but by-and-large, most of us are pretty reasonable people.



Dipcdame said:


> To all, I have a very relevant question, and I'd like an answer to this:
> 
> If the bible is to be believed, then in the beginning, god created adam and eve, they had two sons.... with me so far?? Now, of the two sons, cain and abel, cain was said to slay abel ok? So we now have adam, eve, and cain. It is at this point it gets confusing, cause cain then "took himself a wife"..................... where the HECK did SHE come from????



The Bible doesn't say that Cain and Able were Adam and Eve's only children. Cain's wife would have been either a sister, or possible a neice.


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

English said:


> tongue in cheek or not.. your comments throughout this 'amazing' thread have been pretty derogatory towards a large group of people - i understand that you dont agree with religion, i just think if you approached it differently your views would be appreciated and accepted.. i always say if you don't like what you read, stop reading it and find something else to do that will tickle you pink!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You call me derogatory, and in the next breath air your thoughts towards the botherer on your doorstep. Interesting, to know what tickles your Pink.


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## liberty (Jan 24, 2009)

you know what if ur into it thats cool but dont go knocking on my door at 9 am after ive been out all night and uve woken me up and start pushing ur own beliefs i dont care if i did ig sort it out myself on sundays


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## Riley (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> Ahhh but you see, even though I know that no one can force me to believe in anything I don't want to, some of the christians around me, THINK they have the right to continually try and get me to change my opinion and 2 members of my own family are the worst culpruits.
> 
> I never said that the bible tells anyone to go out and kill people but an earlier post said that biblebashers were just doing what the bible told them to do. Anyway, I challenge you to show me anyone who follows the bible to the letter because most religious people I know, pick and choose what parts they want to believe and follow.
> 
> ...


ok your choice.
with the last paragraph, unless your talking about a different religion then christianity, christians know that everyones sinners not just people whjo arent christians.


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## English (Jan 24, 2009)

cockney red said:


> You call me derogatory, and in the next breath air your thoughts towards the botherer on your doorstep. Interesting, to know what tickles your Pink.



they did not 'bother' me though.. maybe because we shared a mutual respect for each other..


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## draqonfly (Jan 24, 2009)

me religion is buddhism and i really dont follow it to heart because i sin everyday even when i know i shouldnt. 
the main thing to every religion is that there is goodness it them. it teaches ppl to be good. doesnt matter what type it is or whatever the colour of the book its from.... to be good is good enough for me.

but every one makes mistakes and sins everyday whether we like it or not which is a good thing. otherwise we all will be the same and it can get very very boring. Uniqueness in personality is good, sometimes bad things happens to someone, but its a good thing for someone else. Life works in unusual ways. You may get fired from your job because the boss doesnt like you, then the job opportunity opens its door to someone else, which means luck for that person.

Some one gets murdered, maybe that person who was killed deserved it because he was a bad person to many others and could even cause more mischief and harm to others in future if he wasnt disposed of. 

As long as you are good, and the religion you believe in teaches goodness, then theres no harm for what you believe in. If it doesnt do you harm, its good anyways. 

But if it harms other ppl through war, then you can think twice. Is it that religion, or the ppl who gets brainwashed so bad that they lose self conscious and go crazy.


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## jessb (Jan 24, 2009)

Adzo said:


> Gotta admit, religious types do their fair share to keep intelligent, free thinking people away themselves.
> http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page
> 
> No, everyone is _born_ Christian. Only later in life do people choose to stray from Jesus and worship satan instead. Atheists have the greatest "cover" of all, they insist they believe in no god yet most polls done and the latest research indicates that they are actually a different sect of Muslims.


 
Holy moley, that is loopy!!! 

I'll bet it is American - they love to equate anything "bad" with Islam. Kinda like in the 50s when anyone in the US who questioned the status quo was "a Commie".


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## megrim (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> As for atheists not trying to change religious people's views, ? Atheists are worse than Christians in that regard! :lol:





I have never. 

Ever.

Been doorknocked by an atheist.


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## lasnakess (Jan 24, 2009)

Agreed Notechistiger

Although I didn't TRY to be Christian. I was brought up as a Christian Scientist from early childhood. At least they were considered a cult by the rest of the Christian world, now it's just a sect. Bah. But when I started to skip a few Sundays, I started to question the beliefs, then ultimately decided that "god" doesn't even exist, and if he really truley does, he's NOT my god.

I'm much more interested in reading different philosophies, particularly Nihilism and exsistentialism. THey're a fun look on life.


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

megrim said:


> I have never.
> 
> Ever.
> 
> Been doorknocked by an atheist.



I was talking about online in that post.

However, if a group of atheists got together and decided they would organise themselves and knock on people's doors, it would not bother me. They have the same right to do it as religious people.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 24, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> the main thing to every religion is that there is goodness it them. it teaches ppl to be good. doesnt matter what type it is or whatever the colour of the book its from.... to be good is good enough for me.
> 
> *People don't necessarily have to be religious to be 'good", nor do they have to read out of a book to attain it. There ARE people out there who aren't religious by any means, yet they are 'good'!!!*
> 
> ...


 *http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/war.htm*


As I have said in a pm not long ago about this thread, I have the utmost respect for religious people, to each his own, I say, live and let live...... but what I can't stand, are those who think they can preach AT us, and confront us with their beliefs, firmly believing we should be coming round to their way of thinking.........

English, you are VERRRRY lucky that your doorknockers just mildly accepted your answer, all the ones who have been rude enough to knock on our door have insisted and carried on and on till I've had to get blunt with them and shut the door (well, if they're rude enough to disturb peoples day when in the shelter of their own homes, they should expect people to be rude in return)

NAW.......... to religious fanatics who think we should all be saved, I have this to say, you leave me alone, and I'll happily leave you alone. I respect your views, but don't push them in front of me, cause I BITE!!!!! As I'm sure many others would.

I have yet to find a religion that tells the WHOLE truth, and tells it as it is, not flowery and frilled out to suit.................one that can stand true without lies and cover-ups and made up stories... even in the church I belonged to, THAT's why I don't belong anymore.


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> *http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/war.htm*NAW.......... to religious fanatics who think we should all be saved, I have this to say, you leave me alone, and I'll happily leave you alone. I respect your views, but don't push them in front of me, cause I BITE!!!!! As I'm sure many others would.



If it offends you _that _much, next time JWs come, tell them you do not want them to return. You will be placed on a list of houses where they don't call.


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> I was talking about online in that post.
> 
> However, if a group of atheists got together and decided they would organise themselves and knock on people's doors, it would not bother me. They have the same right to do it as religious people.


Could hardly disagree, now,could you..


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## megrim (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> I was talking about online in that post.
> 
> However, if a group of atheists got together and decided they would organise themselves and knock on people's doors, it would not bother me. They have the same right to do it as religious people.




I suppose in all fairness, I've never been dooreknocked by a jew, muslim or catholic either.

I don't agree however, that atheists are as vigilant in their efforts to convert people or change their minds on things as religious folk.
After all, we're not trying to 'save' anyone.

There are a few notable exceptions perhaps, Dawkins, Hitchens etc., but again, I had to seek them out, not viceversa.

EDIT: I might add, this thread was not started by an atheist


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## =bECS= (Jan 24, 2009)

English said:


> just got through watching the youtube series on Khaled Yasin, Christiantiy, Islam, and God that was posted in this thread - an amazing man who speaks well and with conviction - clearly rejects some of the writings of christianity but does not reject the notion of mary and jesus - just the interpretation.
> 
> would love to hear him speak someday!
> 
> the key to everything.. respect.



Sheikh Khaled Yasin was a foster child, he has lived in several homes with several different religious beliefs growing up as a child.
I think this is one thing that led him to look into all religions, hes is extremely knowledgeable in aspects of all major religions.

In the Qur'an Jesus (pbuh) and Mary are both mentioned.
We Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet sent to the lost people of Israel and not the son of god, and that Mohommed (pbuh) was the last prophet.

Muslims actually believe in parts of the Bible and Torah, these in their original form were the holy books sent before the Qur'an.

They were corrupted and changed by human hands during translation over time ( how many times has the bible been re-written?), which is why Allah revealed the Qur'an to Mohommed (pbuh), and we were instructed to follow only the The Holy Qur'an and the true teachings of Mohommed (pbuh)

I am by no means trying to convert people, this is haraam or wrong, if someone wishes to convert to Islam it has to be their own free will. (which is why you dont get ladies in scarves knocking at your door asking if you have heard to good word  )
I am simply stating what we believe and hopefully helping others to see the religion for what it is.

Unfortunately most of what people know of Islam is what the media has portrayed ie terroism etc.

As for the comments i am sure are to come....... why blow yourselves up etc, again that is against the true teachings of Islam, but in all aspects of life, desperate people will do desperate things, just as fanatics will do fanatical things.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> If it offends you _that _much, next time JWs come, tell them you do not want them to return. You will be placed on a list of houses where they don't call.



Done that, MANY times............. they just don't get the message - THAT'S why it offends me! And those who use a forum of an entirely different subject as a vehicle to push their faith and preach to all and sundry on that forum.... THAT offends me. There are religious forums for this sort of thing, where religious people can go and debate theology till the sun don't shine........................ so why come bother others here......... this activity is tantamount to knocking on peoples doors again, except here, you're already in the home, and have an audience of far greater numbers............. SOME may want to sit and do this with you......... start a social group in here then, just do it where you don't annoy others, same asa when you knock on doors!


----------



## megrim (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> Sheikh Khaled Yasin was a foster child, he has lived in several homes with several different religious beliefs growing up as a child.
> I think this is one thing that led him to look into all religions, hes is extremely knowledgeable in aspects of all major religions.
> 
> In the Qur'an Jesus (pbuh) and Mary are both mentioned.
> ...



Thankyou for that. 'Twas an interesting read.
I once attended a lecture back in Iceland from a muslim fellow. He spoke of similarity between the Islamic world and the Viking world. Namely a culture of honesty, generosity and hospitality.
My real beef with the Islamic world comes when religion and state are combined. I don't like religious dogma becoming legal law.


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## Emzie (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> This reminded me of something from my childhood. I can remember going up to my mother when I was about 8 and showing her a letter from the school about an upcoming excursion and asking if I could go but she told me she couldn't afford it. Funnily enough though, at the time she was shoving a $20 note in an envelope that her church had given her. (This is 30 years ago when $20 was a lot of money). The school I went to didn't organise many excursions and it was awful having to stay behind on my own while all my friends went off and had a great time. For all her hard work in trying to force me into becoming a christian, this one act was probably the start of me turning away from it.
> 
> This church not only would pass around the plate for everyone to donate money to during the service, but they 'pre-printed' envelopes with surnames so that they knew just how much everyone was giving. Then they would stand at the door as you walked in so you could hand it over.



i went to a church the other day for the first time for a christening, they even have a place for credit card details 

now how do people buy into this sortof crap

so many things catholics believe i really cant stand them, makes for a good Christmas since all my bf's fam are catholic and i have a big mouth and speak my mind


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## draqonfly (Jan 24, 2009)

Dipcdame

i agree with you, atheist are also good ppl, you dont need to be in a religion to be good, but this thread was talking about religion so thats why i say religion teaches ppl to be good.

but to me if an evil person gets to be killed, it makes me happy. To be honest. Because i have met ppl in that area of life. Until you have met one or two, you might / might not agree, but thats up to you. There is no wrong of right answer to it.


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## caustichumor (Jan 24, 2009)

As an athiest, I have to say I don't beleive in a God. That is as far as it goes, I don't spend my days trying to convince humanity that I am right.


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## =bECS= (Jan 24, 2009)

megrim said:


> Thankyou for that. 'Twas an interesting read.
> I once attended a lecture back in Iceland from a muslim fellow. He spoke of similarity between the Islamic world and the Viking world. Namely a culture of honesty, generosity and hospitality.
> My real beef with the Islamic world comes when religion and state are combined. I don't like religious dogma becoming legal law.



You will find most laws are deemed from religious stand points pretty much everywhere.
For example, if you go to court of law, what are you required to do before you take the stand?


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

megrim said:


> I don't agree however, that atheists are as vigilant in their efforts to convert people or change their minds on things as religious folk.
> After all, we're not trying to 'save' anyone.



Most of the comments on other sites I've read seem to be more about proving religious people wrong than atheists right. (And they aren't anywhere near as tame as on APS!)

I don't have any problem with people not believing in God. But coming straight out and saying that I'm wrong, I'm stupid for believing will offend me. Whenever I say anything from a religious point of view, I will always back it up with scripture. It seems (most) atheists who want to prove me wrong can't back up their views, they just say there is no god "because". And they are usually very arrogant about it.

I think it's pretty clear from this thread that I'm more than happy to speak with atheists on an adult and respectful level


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## Dipcdame (Jan 24, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> Dipcdame
> 
> i agree with you, atheist are also good ppl, you dont need to be in a religion to be good, but this thread was talking about religion so thats why i say religion teaches ppl to be good.
> 
> but to me if an evil person gets to be killed, it makes me happy. To be honest. Because i have met ppl in that area of life. Until you have met one or two, you might / might not agree, but thats up to you. There is no wrong of right answer to it.



Dragonfly, I've met more than one or two.. my husband was a Correctional officer for many years till he retired last year..................... I met many in the street who recognised him. I still don't believe they deserve to die, that's just bad bad bad in itself........................ I wold never wish anyone dead, no matter what they'd done. But then, I guess that's the difference between a non religious person and a "religious" person who says only goodness comes from their teachings!!!!


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## draqonfly (Jan 24, 2009)

yeah , i think i have an evil side in me.....

............. nasty !

but then again religion didnt teach me to have this evil feeling in me.... i guess its because of the life experience that moulded me to feel this way towards those that caused harm to me before.

Personal feelings of wanting to have revenge have crossed my mind some times, so strong that i couldnt sleep a whole night.

But religion is like a school, teaching you their way of study. You have good and bad students, just like the real schools of today. One individuals wrong doing doesnt mean the whole school is crap. It is only crap if the whole school teaches that way.

We are all human, no one is the same, no one is a robot to be programmed to be able to represent what that religion is about.

You have some pedophiles in religions that molests choir boys. You have ppl who uses charity / religion as a scam to suck money from ppl.

To be honest there are some religion that i totally hate. ( my evilness at work) because i disagree with its rules and beliefs.

But it doesnt mean i hate the "person" that believes in that religion, i just hate that "religion" itself.


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## megrim (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> You will find most laws are deemed from religious stand points pretty much everywhere.
> For example, if you go to court of law, what are you required to do before you take the stand?



Oh I wasn't arguing that it's unique to the Muslim world.

I will say however that most other areas of earth have at least made efforts and taken steps to seperate church from state. And with good reason.
Thankfully in this country, most of Europe and perhaps to a lesser extent in America these days 'religious law' and common law mostly only overlap in areas of common sence.

I want my law makers as impartial as possible, laws made on basis of religious superstition can start out simple and seemingly 'for the good', but it's a slippery slope, as history has shown us time and time again.

And those who don't learn from mistakes are usually doomed to repeat them.


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Dipcdame said:


> Done that, MANY times............. they just don't get the message - THAT'S why it offends me! And those who use a forum of an entirely different subject as a vehicle to push their faith and preach to all and sundry on that forum.... THAT offends me. There are religious forums for this sort of thing, where religious people can go and debate theology till the sun don't shine........................ so why come bother others here......... this activity is tantamount to knocking on peoples doors again, except here, you're already in the home, and have an audience of far greater numbers............. SOME may want to sit and do this with you......... start a social group in here then, just do it where you don't annoy others, same asa when you knock on doors!



I'm not using APS as "a vehicle to push my faith"! If this thread is offending you, please don't read it. This thread has 31 pages of people enjoying an open airing of views. You don't have to read it.

This thread is in Chit Chat. If you want to speak about reptiles, scroll up to the herp section


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## megrim (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Whenever I say anything from a religious point of view, I will always back it up with scripture.



I think that highlights a pretty big problem with these sorts of debates.

When you quote 'scripture', you might as well be quoting the back of a cornflakes box for all it means to an atheist.

I'm not trying to belittle whatever scripts you think are factual, just pointing out that in the scientific field, those scripts account for nothing. 
If you quoted up to date, thoroughly peer-reviewed scientific journals you may have a bit more luck.

Reading back on this it seems ruder than I mean it to be. I apologise, my english is not perfect, I hope you understand what I'm trying to get at


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## English (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> Sheikh Khaled Yasin was a foster child, he has lived in several homes with several different religious beliefs growing up as a child.
> I think this is one thing that led him to look into all religions, hes is extremely knowledgeable in aspects of all major religions.
> 
> In the Qur'an Jesus (pbuh) and Mary are both mentioned.
> ...



i try to look for likeness in people, not difference.. this has helped me a long in many ways and is most likely one of the reasons i am open to many of the elements of religion - thus allows me to express tolerence of each difference because when you step back you will actually see that we are all on the same page more so than not.


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

megrim said:


> I think that highlights a pretty big problem with these sorts of debates.
> 
> When you quote 'scripture', you might as well be quoting the back of a cornflakes box for all it means to an atheist.
> 
> ...



I don't think you're being rude at all!

What I mean by referencing scripture is by doing that I'm showing that what I say _is_ from the Bible, not my own thoughts or interpretations.


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## GSXR_Boy (Jan 24, 2009)

Abbot: Just curios what your fellow Js's think of you keeping reptiles. Is there a similar belief as the Christian teaching that snakes are evil as they led Eve into temptation and are destined to crawl on their bellys the rest of their life? ( or something like that ).

For the record i'm not religious and i'm not baptised. But having said that my pommie relatives came to Australia in 1802 ( not as convicts ) and built one of the first churches in Australia at Ebenezor in NSW. Sometimes i wonder if they ever tried to push it onto the local aboriginal people in the area. :|
I don't really care what religion people are or where people are from.


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## jessb (Jan 24, 2009)

megrim said:


> I think that highlights a pretty big problem with these sorts of debates.
> 
> When you quote 'scripture', you might as well be quoting the back of a cornflakes box for all it means to an atheist.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly what I was going to say. Using a book of faith as "evidence" to back up your claims and beliefs (which are derived from said book of faith anyway) can hardly be ued as irrefutable proof. I mean I could use _The Folk of the Faraway Tree_ to back up my claim that ther are a revolving selction of worlds in the tree at he bottom of my garden, but that wouldn't make it so. 

Atheists don't use "just because" as evidence to back up their claim, they use scientific evidence such as proof of evolution to dispute religious stories such as Creationism, and demand some kind of proof before they will accept the existence of an omnipotent being. In the absence of this proof, they argue that there is no support for the claim of the existence of God.


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## megrim (Jan 24, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> I don't think you're being rude at all!
> 
> What I mean by referencing scripture is by doing that I'm showing that what I say _is_ from the Bible, not my own thoughts or interpretations.



Aaah I see. You're highlighting that the scriptures you follow proclaim it directly, and it's not something you interpreted from a vague passage. I get ya. 

Though my initial thoughts lead to worry about who translated those scripts into the ones you follow now, and all the translations before that. Even on a simple level I find scripture difficult to accept purely based on 2 thousand years of telling and retelling.

I understand the basics are all still there, but the devil's in the detail as they say, and said details often become dogma.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> You will find most laws are deemed from religious stand points pretty much everywhere.
> For example, if you go to court of law, what are you required to do before you take the stand?


 

I'm sure that if you do not wish to swear on the bible then they can't make you. I certainly wouldn't do it and they can threaten whatever they like but I would never do it.


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## jessb (Jan 24, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> the main thing to every religion is that there is goodness it them. it teaches ppl to be good. doesnt matter what type it is or whatever the colour of the book its from.... to be good is good enough for me.
> 
> As long as you are good, and the religion you believe in teaches goodness, then theres no harm for what you believe in. If it doesnt do you harm, its good anyways.


 
But every religion teaches that it is the only true faith. So by its very existence it is creating division and difference between people with diference beliefs, which at its most extreme leads to hatred.

As an atheist I am a bit offended that you are implying that religion is required to be a "good" person. Why can't you just wish that all people will be good people, rather than needing to be part of a "good" religion. 

In my earlier post I also point out that all religions (in fact any group that has influence over lage numbers of people) is open to corruption and abuse of power - look at the abuses committed by the Catholic Church, cult leaders, fundamentalists on all sides of the fence.



draqonfly said:


> Some one gets murdered, maybe that person who was killed deserved it because he was a bad person to many others and could even cause more mischief and harm to others in future if he wasnt disposed of.


 
What if they weren't a bad person? Are you implying that everyone who suffers a premature death somehow "deserves it"? Plenty of good people die through violence, disease or accident - how do you explain that? "God works in mysterious ways"??? 

Or just perhaps, people die because we are animals - we live in complex societies with relationships and violence, we contract diseases and sometimes we unintentionally walk out in front of buses. We die because we are living organisms and all living organisms eventually die. End of story!


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

jessb said:


> Exactly what I was going to say. Using a book of faith as "evidence" to back up your claims and beliefs (which are derived from said book of faith anyway) can hardly be ued as irrefutable proof. I mean I could use _The Folk of the Faraway Tree_ to back up my claim that ther are a revolving selction of worlds in the tree at he bottom of my garden, but that wouldn't make it so.
> 
> Atheists don't use "just because" as evidence to back up their claim, they use scientific evidence such as proof of evolution to dispute religious stories such as Creationism, and demand some kind of proof before they will accept the existence of an omnipotent being. In the absence of this proof, they argue that there is no support for the claim of the existence of God.


So, you're a closet Agnostic, then, Jess.


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## megrim (Jan 24, 2009)

for those who feel like a quick giggle - 

http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Dra-Til-Helvete.html


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## Slateman (Jan 24, 2009)

I tried today inspired by this topic to swear on the bible.
Placed the book in front of me and start swearing at the great book.
No fun to swear on bible if there is not swearing back.
Book is holy.

Snake fanatics are beating the Muslim religion now. We are doing well.


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## draqonfly (Jan 24, 2009)

If ppl were all good, it would be great, but that will never happen. Religion teaches goodness, but there are some that goes too far which i dont like. But in general it teaches goodness.

i never said you needed to be in a religion to be good. 

I dont even consider myself to be a fully commited buddhist, if i did i wouldnt wish evil ppl to be dead !
I just feel "comfortable" to being a buddhist as its the choice i made for meself. It "teaches" me how to live a peaceful life. As i said, it "teaches", it doesnt mean that it will transform me to live that path way of life.
If i was strong enough, i would call myself an atheist. No need for spiritual guidance, but without any teachings, i might have a chance to lose control one day, and go and tear the heart out of the ppl that i hated before hehehhe.... just joking,.... but who knows....

And if an innocent person gets killed, of course i wont be happy. I would wish the person who killed the innocent person be killed himself. 

I am the type of person that cant live with the thought of doing harm to someone in the " First Place " ... But if someone else does harm to me family, im not the type to let it go.

Thats why i wish evil ppl dead. And for me to say evil, i dont know who is evil or not, unless they have crossed my path and showed me their evil deeds in front of me eyes.


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## =bECS= (Jan 24, 2009)

Slateman said:


> I tried today inspired by this topic to swear on the bible.
> Placed the book in front of me and start swearing at the great book.
> No fun to swear on bible if there is not swearing back.
> Book is holy.



In all honestly Slateman, even though you are the site owner and my comment may well get me infracted, that is one of the rudest/offensive comments so far on this thread, and i expected better from you

If everyone else is respecting each others beliefs and acting like adults, why cant you?

You know that there are Christians on here and that they hold their Bible sacred, and yet you make jokes about swearing at their 'great holy book' !


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## draqonfly (Jan 24, 2009)

But thanks for this interesting thread, its enough for me.....

dont want to argue with anyone.

Religion is a very sensitive matter.... and its not something that i wish to pursue to discuss any further, because the only outcome would be "arguments" !

Chill out everyone, and play with your reptiles instead of argueing or trying to claim you are right.... because in reality, we dont know whats on the otherside yet.


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Yeh Slatey, disgraceful.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 24, 2009)

Slateman said:


> I tried today inspired by this topic to swear on the bible.
> Placed the book in front of me and start swearing at the great book.
> No fun to swear on bible if there is not swearing back.
> Book is holy.
> ...



PMSL Slateman................... did the book blush????

YAYY. go the Snakeologists!!!!!!!!! Who would their god be?? Set, the serpent god perhaps!!!!! LOL


And Dragonfly, I wholeheartedly agree, maybe we should just draw a line under all this, call it a day, and just agree to disagree. (and if Sex or Politics ever comes up as a new thread, I'm OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!! LOL)


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

If their is a God, why would he let the paint, i wanted to paint the deck with, not to be used in temps over 36c. its just hit 41 here, and all i can do is twiddle me thumbs and keep myself Hydrated on amber nectar. Why should we have to do it so tough.


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Oh, and by the way, i didn't get a chance to hose the God botherers, my dogs got to them first.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> In all honestly Slateman, even though you are the site owner and my comment may well get me infracted, that is one of the rudest/offensive comments so far on this thread, and i expected better from you
> 
> If everyone else is respecting each others beliefs and acting like adults, why cant you?
> 
> You know that there are Christians on here and that they hold their Bible sacred, and yet you make jokes about swearing at their 'great holy book' !


 

Becs...I'm sure Slateman didn't mean to offend anyone and he was probably just trying to lighten the mood a bit.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

cockney red said:


> Oh, and by the way, i didn't get a chance to hose the God botherers, my dogs got to them first.


 

Good doggy :lol::lol::lol:


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## ecosnake (Jan 24, 2009)

I been a buddhist for two years now..


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## =bECS= (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> Becs...I'm sure Slateman didn't mean to offend anyone and he was probably just trying to lighten the mood a bit.



Yes but if it was anyone else who had said it, it would have been deleted for being offensive to others etc.


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## jessb (Jan 24, 2009)

cockney red said:


> So, you're a closet Agnostic, then, Jess.


 

LOL I did notice that a bit as I wrote it - too hot to formulate an argument... 

No I don't believe there is a God, same as I don't believe there is a pixie with a baking fetish in my backyard making magical sweeties, but at the same time if I were proven wrong with hard evidence then I would be happy to open my mind to other possibilities. 

Need to go for another swim now...


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Dont touch the magical sweeties these days, but i take your Agnostic point.


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> Yes but if it was anyone else who had said it, it would have been deleted for being offensive to others etc.


 
You're probably right there.


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## Australis (Jan 24, 2009)

> The vestiges of pagan religion in Christian symbology are undeniable. Egyptian sun disks became the halos of Catholic saints. Pictograms of Isis nursing her miraculously conceived son Horus became the blueprint for
> our modern images of the Virgin Mary nursing Baby Jesus. And virtually all the elements of the Catholic ritual - the miter, the altar, the doxology, and communion, the act of "God-eating" - were taken directly from earlier pagan mystery religions.
> *The Da Vinci Code*





> Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras - called the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25, died was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday or Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity's weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans.
> *The Da Vinci Code*



:shock:


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Australis said:


> :shock:



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

The Da Vinci Code...now that was a good book. 

Sure made more sense to me than the bible ever did.


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## Australis (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> The Da Vinci Code...now that was a good book.
> 
> Sure made more sense to me than the bible ever did.



I just like the albino - :shock: ... :lol: .. oh.. err


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## abbott75 (Jan 24, 2009)

Australis said:


> :shock:



I could pick at all of those points, but it's too hot  so I'll go with the 25th of December.

There is substantial evidence that Jesus was *not* born on the 25th, and that it was in fact one of the 'false teachings' prophised by Jesus himself.

Its way too hot in the room for me to type up evidence, so if you're interested I'll point you to this site. http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/was-jesus-born-on-december-25-faq.htm

NOTE: That link has nothing to do with JWs, so I'm not pushing my beliefs with this one


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## cockney red (Jan 24, 2009)

Da Vinci, and Nostradamus, now their things that i can truly believe in.


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## Vat69 (Jan 24, 2009)

megrim said:


> for those who feel like a quick giggle -
> 
> http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Dra-Til-Helvete.html



I see your comic and raise you: http://russellsteapot.com/images/comics/2007/Image093.jpg

I love that site :lol:


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## redbellybite (Jan 24, 2009)

after this post ,which is now at page 34 ,now can you understand the wars of our world due to religion ..everyone has a significant point and no one is wrong ,as this is your opinion, but the heated moments it has caused during this post is amazing ...if this post can cause arguments and frustration ,now you may all understand it on a bigger scale world wide ....


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## Jewly (Jan 24, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> after this post ,which is now at page 34 ,now can you understand the wars of our world due to religion ..everyone has a significant point and no one is wrong ,as this is your opinion, but the heated moments it has caused during this post is amazing ...if this post can cause arguments and frustration ,now you may all understand it on a bigger scale world wide ....


 
We must also remember that wars are created by governments, which are usually run by men!!

If women ruled the world, we'd just bitch behind everyone's back and throw a tupperware party..lol


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## =bECS= (Jan 24, 2009)

Jewly said:


> If women ruled the world, we'd just bitch behind everyone's back and throw a tupperware party..lol



New sig :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Oldbeard (Jan 24, 2009)

Wow 34 pages, i havent read all of them just bits and pieces so forgive me if i repeat anything.
I am not a practicing catholic but was baptised one. i am not an atheist so I guess I am a fence sitter. I am quite surprised at the amount of atheists
Kane mortlock , i think you have been watching too much Eli Stone, was George Michael in the choir??? I believe nature talks to everyone and you can see some amazing things if you open your eyes to it. its up to interpretation, though and i guess you could think it was God:shock:
I also believe you can see spiritual things if you are open to it, i have seen some unexplained things usually after the loss of a loved one. which i believe is just a coping mechanism that is built in to our being to deal with death. A great experience nonetheless.
As for someone(cant remember who) saying we are put here to reproduce, I just wonder then about people who dont have children, is there life pointless??? 
I also believe in karma, i dont think bad people get bad karma because most of them just get away with the **** they do, but good people thinking bad things def get bad karma. 
the other day watching the tennis i said to my partner "didnt that Jelena Dokic used to have a big mole on her face" I then went into the Austin Powers Molee molee molee. The next day i woke up with a huge pimple ( so big you can see it from the moon) in the same place where i think jelenas was. Bad karma for sure
I also believe there was a man named Jesus who walked the earth , the same as there was a man named David Koresh. They had their followers believing the same thing. the only difference being there was a lot of outside influence from the media in the david koresh instance. 
the thing that happened in jesus time only happened in that small area in which they lived,a few countries, it wasnt a global thing. 
My main belief is to live life everyday and be the happiest you can. If believing in God makes you happy then good for you.If there are people in your life dragging you down then get them out of your life. surround yourself with people that you have fun with. keep your family at a distance where you cant kill them when they annoy you.
Most of all keep in contact with your Mum and Dad, and your kids. even if they p*** you off.
In the words of Forrest "Thats all i have to say about that "


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## Slateman (Jan 24, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> In all honestly Slateman, even though you are the site owner and my comment may well get me infracted, that is one of the rudest/offensive comments so far on this thread, and i expected better from you
> 
> If everyone else is respecting each others beliefs and acting like adults, why cant you?
> 
> You know that there are Christians on here and that they hold their Bible sacred, and yet you make jokes about swearing at their 'great holy book' !



here we go. So called peacefull religion. Grow up and try to help people around you. With or with out god you will do better than have a go on me.
It was just joke with out bad intention.
:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:


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## waruikazi (Jan 24, 2009)

Slateman said:


> here we go. So called peacefull religion. Grow up and try to help people around you. With or with out god you will do better than have a go on me.
> It was just joke with out bad intention.
> :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:



A great many of us have made jokes without bad intention in the past and 'suffered the wrath of god' round these parts before... :lol:


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## =bECS= (Jan 24, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> A great many of us have made jokes without bad intention in the past and 'suffered the wrath of god' round these parts before... :lol:



Exactly my point


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## mattmc (Jan 24, 2009)

god's god is chuck norris :lol:


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## Jay84 (Jan 25, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> after this post ,which is now at page 34 ,now can you understand the wars of our world due to religion ..everyone has a significant point and no one is wrong ,as this is your opinion, but the heated moments it has caused during this post is amazing ...if this post can cause arguments and frustration ,now you may all understand it on a bigger scale world wide ....



I totally agree with the point that some religions incite wars and violence. But do you think that if religion was absent from the world then there would be no war? Politics and governments are just as bad, if there were no religion this thread would be slagging off governments in power for 35 pages lol.

JW's do not vote, they have no involvement in governments. i dont know why religious men put faith in men ruling seeing this would be going against bible teachings. i dont understand why many athiests show so much hate towards religious people. the majority of religious people dont feel hate towards athiests?


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## cris (Jan 25, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> JW's do not vote, they have no involvement in governments. i dont know why religious men put faith in men ruling seeing this would be going against bible teachings. i dont understand why many athiests show so much hate towards religious people. the majority of religious people dont feel hate towards athiests?



Most atheists have no problem with religious ppl, provided their superstitions dont cause trouble to others. JW's are pests that go around annoying ppl, they deserve any hate they get IMO. Personally i have never been bothered by one and i wouldnt let such pests annoy me even if they did come around here, i actually find them quite funny.


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## Moreliaman (Jan 25, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> Most of the time i offer them a glass of water and they leave. they are doing what they are instructed to do. and its australian law that permits this, not just cos its written in a book.



I thought thats what they were being offered ! it was just from a hose pipe thats all !!

I happy for them to stand in the street proclaiming their religion, or perhaps advertise events in halls where people can attend if they choose to, but not knock on my door and annoy me ( its usually when im busy to!) 

the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25
*The Da Vinci Code*

I'm glad you mentioned that abbott.....I thought that theory had been dissproved, just one way was... it claims the shepards were watching their flocks in the fields & in that part of the world its far too cold to have sheep out during the night in the middle of winter !




Slateman said:


> It was just joke with out bad intention.


ERE slatey.... that aint fair....i made a joke with no bad intention about gillsy & got an infraction for it !!:?.....is it because my nose aint brown ??? <----thats another joke without bad intention too

*Jay84*....i was under the impression 99% of war had been caused by religion ??


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## Vincey (Jan 25, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> In all honestly Slateman, even though you are the site owner and my comment may well get me infracted, that is one of the rudest/offensive comments so far on this thread, and i expected better from you
> 
> If everyone else is respecting each others beliefs and acting like adults, why cant you?
> 
> You know that there are Christians on here and that they hold their Bible sacred, and yet you make jokes about swearing at their 'great holy book' !



Bahaha..

He's site admin, in all honesty: who cares what he does. Without him and the help of others there wouldn't be this site, it wasn't a slur.

I'm a born and raised christian or catholic, been baptised and confirmed and such.. Don't really believe in it and never did, was more of a parental pressure sort of thing. I dont mind people of other religions as long as they don't go preaching or pressuring me into believing or something of the sort. I do not believe in God nor The Big Bang Theory as to how we were created also, but i do believe there is/was some greater 'thing' which created all and everything(sorta off topic =p)

well thats my 2 cents


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## Jewly (Jan 25, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> New sig :lol: :lol: :lol:


 
Be my guest. :lol::lol::lol:


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## redbellybite (Jan 25, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> I totally agree with the point that some religions incite wars and violence. But do you think that if religion was absent from the world then there would be no war? Politics and governments are just as bad, if there were no religion this thread would be slagging off governments in power for 35 pages lol.
> 
> JW's do not vote, they have no involvement in governments. i dont know why religious men put faith in men ruling seeing this would be going against bible teachings. i dont understand why many athiests show so much hate towards religious people. the majority of religious people dont feel hate towards athiests?


 I didnt say that all wars are religious base now JAY ...I am aware of other goings on ..my point was simply that this topic of religion in this forum can cause heated moments amongst APS members and this being only a fart in the jar compared to world wide basis ..it might give some incite of how easily wars are begun with just peoples different beliefs .....................and as far as slatemen with his bible joke .come on ....we all have heard of the swear on the bible crap ....ITS JUST A BOOK that some have faith in, some only see it simply as a book ...he didnt wipe his butt with the pages ...


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## cockney red (Jan 25, 2009)

You're off to Pergatory for that one,RBB.:lol::lol::lol:


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## redbellybite (Jan 25, 2009)

cockney red said:


> You're off to Pergatory for that one,RBB.:lol::lol::lol:


 use to Pergatory after being a member on APS infractions are like that ..and I have many of them :lol::lol::lol:


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## Jewly (Jan 25, 2009)

Jay84 said:


> JW's do not vote, they have no involvement in governments. i dont know why religious men put faith in men ruling seeing this would be going against bible teachings.


 
Jay..how do you get away with not voting?


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## Jay84 (Jan 25, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> this being only a fart in the jar :



PMSL...... i like that one lol. 

all i was trying to get at is that with or without religion, there would be war.


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## Jay84 (Jan 25, 2009)

Jewly said:


> Jay..how do you get away with not voting?



Like i have said before i am not religious anymore so i guess next election ill have to sort something out. But all the JW's have to do is write a letter to the appropriate person explaining the religion and their beliefs in voting and governments and they are put on an exemplary list.


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## Jewly (Jan 25, 2009)

So, do I have that same right because I'm an athiest cause I hate being forced to vote?


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## GSXR_Boy (Jan 25, 2009)

Jewly said:


> So, do I have that same right because I'm an athiest cause I hate being forced to vote?


 
You can be fined for enrolling to vote at 18 and not voting but if you have never enrolled to vote you can't be fined :? (Don't ask me how that works).


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## Oldbeard (Jan 25, 2009)

I noticed people having some problems with annoying JWs. Is that John Weigel?? Just kidding
the way to get rid of them is to ask "why do you think out of the billions of people born since the beginning of time ( since Adam and Eve) that you will be picked to be more righteous than another 144000." 
The lady I said this to told me that Adam and Eve and the disciples and anyone from that time are insignificant. So I told her to tell me the year when people start to become significant. Even if it is this year you are up against 6 billion. There would be more than 144000 infants that have never committied a sin. That would make them more righteous than you. 
She never came back. 
Yippee!!

BTW i didnt realise atheists were a practicing group. It is not a faith, it is to have no faith.


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## FAY (Jan 25, 2009)

Swearing on the bible is done a thousand times a day in every courtroom across Australia and I other countries as well, so why is it such a big deal?
On that note this thread has more than run it's course!


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## Slateman (Jan 25, 2009)

We have rule in moderators forum that if topic about religion or politic starts, somebody will get in the trouble.
Usually we close this type of debate quickly and ask people to start this serious debate in appropriate forums. 

Not good to sort out all world problems on aps in chit chat where people are light minded and log in to enjoy and have a fun.

If you like to preach and tell people off because they are different and have not your values, please go door knocking and leave us be.
Not all people around the world are so single mindedly attached to religion.
If some of you are, please start religious forum to promote your view and don't attack people who are different here.
There is nothing wrong me to swear on the bible. This is my personal choice. I don't like to be called rude by some people in open forum. I did not named and attacked anybody for insulting my believes also.
One of them is my right to be happy and not to worry about burning in hell. 
My joke is not as bad as the thread from hot catholic or other believer telling me that I will go to burn in hell.
By screaming that in churches and threatening all sinners to be punished that way is rude by my opinion. Specially when some of the so called sin is acceptable by society.
Whoo give rights to anybody to control other peoples believes.

As far as I know, I should be law obeying citizen in this country to be excepted.

I do not wish to be called names, and to be attacked for my believe be free , and not bound by any religious group or clan. I do have that rigt as much as some super riligious people.

If I decide to swear on bible, so be it. It is my way of communication with god. 
My personal decision.

I am worshipping beautiful nature and natural habitat. But I don't go after people who don't have same opinion and plant impored plant in they garden. Why I should take that personally and get offended. I would have to be fanatical to do that. So please think about your self if you like to attack others for not being same like you, or not having same values. Maybe the fanatic nature of the human been is pushing.

Live happy live and let the others to do the same.

I did not attack anybody personally here. If that will happens again in future, remember it is against the rules.

If you like to be nasty to other members for any reason, politics or religion. Please leave aps forum.


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