# Former Nrl Star Arrested Over Wildlife Smuggling Ring



## Ramsayi (Mar 4, 2017)

Australian Federal Police have arrested suspended NRL player Martin Kennedy over his alleged involvement in an illegal international wildlife ring.

Is he still the owner of the Snakeranch ?

http://wwos.nine.com.au/2017/03/04/09/08/former-nrl-star-arrested-over-wildlife-smuggling-ring


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## Yellowtail (Mar 4, 2017)

More importantly how does this effect RDU


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## Stuart (Mar 4, 2017)

Ouch..


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## Shotta (Mar 4, 2017)

no surprise there, wonder what john w. would think about this...


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## Wally (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm shocked........


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 4, 2017)

Ramsayi said:


> Is he still the owner of the Snakeranch ?



My understanding is that he is. Will be interesting to see if this has any impact on the animals held under licence by snake ranch.
So much coming to the surface in the hobby at the moment & mostly damaging unfortunately.


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 4, 2017)

I'd like to click likes but in this circumstance it is not appropriate


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## StunningMorelia (Mar 5, 2017)

What happens now to the snakes of Snake Ranch?? :/


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 5, 2017)

I thought snake ranch belonged wholey and entirely to Australian Reptile Park?????


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## saximus (Mar 6, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I thought snake ranch belonged wholey and entirely to Australian Reptile Park?????


Where did you get that idea? 

Just think of all the projects that are now lost. Black Woma, Hypermelanistic Darwin, Albino RBB, Pied Stimmies...


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 7, 2017)

From what I can see any ads that were on RDU from snake ranch have been taken down. 
That doesn't mean anything in itself but..........


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 7, 2017)

Hope he winds up spending a lot of time in gaol and his assets are ALL confiscated....


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 7, 2017)

kingofnobbys said:


> Hope he winds up spending a lot of time in gaol and his assets are ALL confiscated....


that's all well and good but it doesn't help all the other people and the projects affected !


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## Varanoidea (Mar 7, 2017)

Wow...


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## Buggster (Mar 7, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> From what I can see any ads that were on RDU from snake ranch have been taken down.
> That doesn't mean anything in itself but..........



Is it just me, or has their website become unavailable?


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## pinefamily (Mar 7, 2017)

Working at 8:32 PM CST


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 7, 2017)

Snake ranch site is unavailable but its been pretty much useless for months now.


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## pinefamily (Mar 7, 2017)

Sorry, I meant RDU. Should've read the post properly, lol.


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 7, 2017)

it makes it obvious why so many ads on RDU were of sus nature now ,Who the the F#$k do you trust?


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## nick_75 (Mar 7, 2017)

saximus said:


> Where did you get that idea?
> 
> Just think of all the projects that are now lost. Black Woma, Hypermelanistic Darwin, Albino RBB, Pied Stimmies...


I don't see a problem with these fad animals not ending up plastered all over this site for big dollars.
One less hatchling factory.


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## vampstorso (Mar 8, 2017)

nick_75 said:


> I don't see a problem with these fad animals not ending up plastered all over this site for big dollars.
> One less hatchling factory.



Oh they wouldn't be plastered for a long time and the price they'd be fetching and waiting lists lol. 
I mean... Do you see regular rbbs plastered anywhere despite them being HIGHLY sought after? Every time I used to post a photo of mine someone would be offering to buy it, I was only lucky enough to own her due to another kind keeper in the know (thanks IV!) or else getting in is pretty hard .

And the pythons disappearing just means something else will come up to replace them, so doesn't solve your problem.


At the very least it'd be sad for the innocent animals to be euthanized due to someone else's bad decisions.

Unless your animals came from a wild catch permit (or you're in Tas), your animals are from a "hatchling factory". And if they are from the wild, that in itself is another ethical dilemma.


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## nick_75 (Mar 8, 2017)

vampstorso said:


> Oh they wouldn't be plastered for a long time and the price they'd be fetching and waiting lists lol.
> I mean... Do you see regular rbbs plastered anywhere despite them being HIGHLY sought after? Every time I used to post a photo of mine someone would be offering to buy it, I was only lucky enough to own her due to another kind keeper in the know (thanks IV!) or else getting in is pretty hard .
> 
> And the pythons disappearing just means something else will come up to replace them, so doesn't solve your problem.
> ...



My comment was not directed at a specific species. The comment was directed towards new colour morphs that take the internet by storm, have very high cost and are very popular with the people who must have the new, cool thing in their collection. And then phase out in popularity when the next new, cool thing takes over.

I disagree that my animals have come from a hatchling factory. My animals are from private breeders with a low animal density. They do not breed all of their animals every year and the breeding adults are kept as pets in large enclosures not small tubs to maximize space to fit in more breeding stock.
All of my animals are wild type specimens, I do not keep morphs. Many people would think that my non het, melanistic, albino etc animals are boring. I think that they are perfect.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 8, 2017)

Even the morphs had to come from somewhere. The genetics all come from wild caught animals & line breeding.
Without private breeders reptile enthusiasts would still be getting their animals from the wild. The hatchling factories you refer to satisfy the need of the people who aspire to get into the hobby. If you go back 30+ years I would guess 90% of available animals were wild caught and transported around the world in very poor condition. The reptile trade in many countries is still rife with wild colony's of animals on the verge of total destruction due to mans desire to own anything that is beautiful & expensive.
I don't want to take the thread off track as it is about a local smuggling not morphs. Smuggling is obviosly still a problem but is keeping native animals off licence any less of a crime? 

(I'm probably one of those factories you refer too though I keep less animals than many who don't even breed or have no desire to breed their animals).


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 8, 2017)

nick_75 said:


> All of my animals are wild type specimens, I do not keep morphs. Many people would think that my non het, melanistic, albino etc animals are boring. I think that they are perfect.



I agree with this wholeheartedly. I love wild types, but I also do love some morphs as well. But as Pauls_Pythons says it's a good thing that reptiles are being established in captivity and breeding freely, even if they are "hatchling factories". It relieves the demand on the taking of wild reptiles. Here in Western Australia many species or locales are particularly hard to come by or are simply non-existent in collections, and wild taking can be common. While there's always a plus to knowing the exact origins of your animal if it's wild caught, it can also pose as a negative.

Depending on the species, or the individual's personality, wild caught reptiles can be extremely difficult to care for. Not to mention there's the ethical issue of removing an animal from the wild that once knew unlimited space and freedom and then placing it in an enclosure of a bare fraction of what it once knew. It's particularly disheartening for animals that are used to roaming large, extensive territories that can be kilometres, and then watching them chafe at the confines of a box that's only a few metres wide. Captive bred reptiles don't appear to know any better though. Also, many wild reptiles fail to establish in captivity, despite a keeper's best efforts. They either perish or fail to breed, and this benefits no one, not keepers, nor wild populations. Some wild reptiles adapt to life in captivity. They'll feed, survive, and possibly breed. But again, depending on the animal, they'll always know that they're being confined. I would prefer "hatchling factories" over the constant demand of taking wild animals. And I'm ashamed to say that my demand for a particular animal/locale supports wild taking. Fortunately in Western Australia, it only happens on a relatively small scale compared to overseas where wild taking happens on a much larger scale.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Mar 8, 2017)

Ive asked this question before but what defines a morph? A colour or pattern alteration 1st observed in captivity? That seems to be the only difference with albinos 1 or 2 were found in the wild 1st and they are classed as wildtype? Mutations can and do appear in the wild take scaleless ratsnakes.. i dare say a scaleless CP would be deemed an abomination if bred in captivity but somehow its ok if found in the wild 1st???


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## Yellowtail (Mar 8, 2017)

You would think in the current circumstances they would be careful about scam adds, this one has been there for 5hrs.
I have reported many such adds and asked the obvious question, are they reported to the relevant authorities?


*[SALE] Ghost Black Pastel Cypress Honey Ball Python – Male and Female*
*Price: $2,800.00 each Melbourne, VIC *













Common Name: Arod.com.au
Scientific Name: Antaresia maculosa
Quantity: 2
Sex: Breeding Pair
Age: 3
Size: 4-6

*Ad Description*
Feeding on Small Adult Mice – Weekly 

Ball pythons for sale at BHB Reptiles! BHB Reptiles has one of the largest selections of ball pythons in the United States. We take pride in our quality ball pythons morphs and amazing customer service. 

Not finding the particular Ball pythons for sale that you are interested in or have questions about the ball pythons morphs available? We can provide you with current weights and photos of all of our Ball pythons morphs for sale.

Ball Pythons (Python Regius) is one of the smaller species of Python which originate from West Africa. This species of Python has become one of the most popular snakes in the pet trade. Their reasonable size of 4-6 foot as adults is perfect for all levels of snake keepers.


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## Yellowtail (Mar 8, 2017)

Didn't Kennedy have a partner, I think his name was Williams, ex Taronga Zoo?


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## StunningMorelia (Mar 8, 2017)

@*Prof_Moreliarty *My two cents; from what I understand, a morph is the colloquial term used for a Mendalian trait; i.e. a mutation in a single gene which causes the visual difference. Examples are recessive inheritance, and (I think) incomplete dominant inheritance. So albinism is a morph, irrelevant of whether it was first produced in the wild or in captivity. The problem with your hypothetical scaleless carpet python in the wild is that such a change would not be advantageous; and more likely distinctly unfavourable as they wouldn't be as hardy, and thus natural selection will play it's part and it would die an early death without ever reproducing.


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## nick_75 (Mar 8, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Even the morphs had to come from somewhere. The genetics all come from wild caught animals & line breeding.
> Without private breeders reptile enthusiasts would still be getting their animals from the wild. The hatchling factories you refer to satisfy the need of the people who aspire to get into the hobby. If you go back 30+ years I would guess 90% of available animals were wild caught and transported around the world in very poor condition. The reptile trade in many countries is still rife with wild colony's of animals on the verge of total destruction due to mans desire to own anything that is beautiful & expensive.
> I don't want to take the thread off track as it is about a local smuggling not morphs. Smuggling is obviosly still a problem but is keeping native animals off licence any less of a crime?
> 
> (I'm probably one of those factories you refer too though I keep less animals than many who don't even breed or have no desire to breed their animals).



My hatchling factory reference to the large commercial breeders with flashy websites and youtube channels.
I am certainly against illegally harvesting animals from the wild. I also believe that keeping large volumes of animals in very small enclosures and breeding every year unethical.


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 8, 2017)

yep .... pretty obvious operations like that are in it ONLY to line their own pockets . 

This might be common overseas ( where hatchling farms are huge ) , we really don't this kind of thing here IMO.


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## Yellowtail (Mar 8, 2017)

This all seems to be away from the original thread but no Australian breeders operate under the US model where very large numbers of imported ball pythons were mass bred to produce a few morphs and the rest killed. The original albino darwin female was a wild snake and I happen to have selectively line bred particular traits from some of her original offspring. I also line breed black & white Julatten jungles that originated from rare wild caught animals. I rest my breeding females alternate years and have never power fed any of my breeders, they are all kept in large cages with perches and hides. Certainly albinos would be disadvantaged in the wild but some do survive, adult albino tiger snakes have been found and I personally had a wild caught adult albino dugite in WA as a young boy. (it was legal then)


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 12, 2017)

^^ I hope you are correct , but doubt it ....

I wonder how many unacceptable hatchling snakes and lizards are killed by larger scale commercial breeders here when they lack the desired "qualities" that will make it saleable for a high price , and not profitable to even feed and house the ordinary hatchlings prior to trying to sell them (regarding them essentially as disposeable commodities of little or no value to them), especially since the boofocrats have allowed pet shops to get into the action and stock and sell reptiles.


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## Wally (Mar 13, 2017)

I wonder how many people lose reptiles due to their inabilility to accept advice.....

Especially when new to the hobby.


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 13, 2017)

Prof_Moreliarty said:


> Ive asked this question before but what defines a morph? A colour or pattern alteration 1st observed in captivity? That seems to be the only difference with albinos 1 or 2 were found in the wild 1st and they are classed as wildtype? Mutations can and do appear in the wild take scaleless ratsnakes.. i dare say a scaleless CP would be deemed an abomination if bred in captivity but somehow its ok if found in the wild 1st???



To me a morph is simply the appearance of an animal, its phenotype. Every genetic characteristic that has, or ever has come to be, is a mutation, whether recessive, dominant, or co-dominant. Some mutations prove advantageous to wild populations, allowing the animal to survive to maturity and pass on its characteristics to the next generation. Even if a morph such as an albino or scaleless is found in the wild, it doesn't necessarily mean it's "natural". One albino/scaleless (or whatever) random animal doesn't count as natural in my books anyway. It's just a fluke that it survived to adulthood. If it was a population, however . . . Mutations in the wild that do not benefit a species' survival will quickly be taken out of the gene-pool via natural selection. Then that "morph" passes out into obscurity. But in captive breeding, however, selective pressures such as predation are virtually non-existent and so the animal can survive and pass on its genes. That's why albinos are common in captivity. There are no wild reptile populations of albinos because it's simply not an advantageous morph. Albino animals are easily spotted by predators. It can be even more of a disadvantage to diurnal sun loving reptiles as it offers little protection from excess UVB. Albinism can effect eyesight as well. Come to think of it, I've only ever heard of one case where albinism survives in wild reptile populations. That is an albino population of rat snakes in Japan. But it appears that they survived thus because the local humans revered and protected them. I guess it was an advantageous mutation after all? But still, it's human intervention. Many of the "morphs" floating about in the hobby, as far as I'm aware, would stand little chance of surviving and establishing themselves in the wild.

While it's nice seeing all the different colours out there, and I won't deny that some of them are indeed striking, I just don't understand why it has become such a great race to create something "different". Breeding Black Headed Pythons with no black heads, Woma pythons with black heads, or black, red, yellow Green Tree Frogs, naturally spiky lizards that are now scaleless? Why change the animal from what it has evolved to be? Why is it that "paint jobs" only appear to matter these days? I just don't understand the hype. I'm probably old fashioned perhaps, but so be it.


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## Allan (Mar 13, 2017)

How is RDU involved with this guy?


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## pinefamily (Mar 13, 2017)

If he is the owner/co-owner of Snake Ranch, then RDU is run by Snake Ranch, as I understand it.


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## Yellowtail (Mar 13, 2017)

kingofnobbys said:


> ^^ I hope you are correct , but doubt it ....
> 
> I wonder how many unacceptable hatchling snakes and lizards are killed by larger scale commercial breeders here when they lack the desired "qualities" that will make it saleable for a high price , and not profitable to even feed and house the ordinary hatchlings prior to trying to sell them (regarding them essentially as disposeable commodities of little or no value to them), especially since the boofocrats have allowed pet shops to get into the action and stock and sell reptiles.



It happens a bit with jags, many are not viable. I won't have anything to do with them.
I have a line of B&W jungles that are probably axanthic but I am not prepared to go through the process of outcrossing with normals to prove them as this will produce a whole lot of mongrels that are not readily saleable.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Mar 13, 2017)

I would hope that is not a common practice of euthanising unwanted hatchys in aus.. if they are unwanted give them away free pretty sure they will clear quickly there was a bloke on rdu giving away woma hatchys free the other week needless to say ad wasnt up very long..


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## ronhalling (Mar 15, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I thought snake ranch belonged wholey and entirely to Australian Reptile Park?????



It used to be part of ARP but was sold off to a couple of ex NRL players. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) -ronhalling


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 15, 2017)

Snake Ranch was the brainchild of John Weigel, in partnership with a couple of others over the years, and was bought by Marty Kennedy and others a few years back. Whilst the aforementioned activities are not to be condoned, I think it's interesting how often those who call for blood in cases like this can't wait to avail themselves of the loot (or animals) that come from owning and breeding the smuggled stock. How many of you fawn over the ugly, blotchy freaks that come from all the mixed breeding with illegally imported morphs. Hypocrisy much?

Jamie


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 15, 2017)

pythoninfinite said:


> Snake Ranch was the brainchild of John Weigel, in partnership with a couple of others over the years, and was bought by Marty Kennedy and others a few years back. Whilst the aforementioned activities are not to be condoned, I think it's interesting how often those who call for blood in cases like this can't wait to avail themselves of the loot (or animals) that come from owning and breeding the smuggled stock. How many of you fawn over the ugly, blotchy freaks that come from all the mixed breeding with illegally imported morphs. Hypocrisy much?
> 
> Jamie



Are many of the morphs originally smuggled animals?


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## Ramsayi (Mar 15, 2017)

Lets just say that people have been breeding reptiles for years and years yet very few morphs showed up.


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 15, 2017)

yeah it's amazing how all of sudden there are all these amazing morphs


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## pinefamily (Mar 15, 2017)

Not this little black duck, Jamie. Give me our reptiles in their native beauty any day.


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 16, 2017)

pythoninfinite said:


> Snake Ranch was the brainchild of John Weigel, in partnership with a couple of others over the years, and was bought by Marty Kennedy and others a few years back. Whilst the aforementioned activities are not to be condoned, I think it's interesting how often those who call for blood in cases like this can't wait to avail themselves of the loot (or animals) that come from owning and breeding the smuggled stock. How many of you fawn over the ugly, blotchy freaks that come from all the mixed breeding with illegally imported morphs. Hypocrisy much?
> 
> Jamie


fawn over overrated overpriced morphs ??? nah .... fraid not..... I like my nice standard common skinks and beardies , plenty interesting and beautiful enough naturally .... maybe t's a python collector thing maybe ...?
or maybe a python snobbery thing where some people want these "special" morphs as a "status symbol of some kind".

Weigel and co were only in this to make money and lots of it as fast as possible by what ever means..... IMO they added nothing of any benefit to the hobby.


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## Stuart (Mar 16, 2017)

kingofnobbys said:


> Weigel and co were only in this to make money and lots of it as fast as possible by what ever means..... IMO they added nothing of any benefit to the hobby.



I generally try not to take the bait but...

What fact based evidence do you have to support this claim as that is a very bold statement to make on APS considering John Weigels contributions to the hobby...


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## Rob (Mar 16, 2017)

kingofnobbys said:


> Weigel and co were only in this to make money and lots of it as fast as possible by what ever means..... IMO they added nothing of any benefit to the hobby.



Wow. Just wow.

His work with Morelia carinata, and a little book he wrote by the name of Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity. This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, so here's mine: JW's next crap is likely to be more beneficial (and factual) to the hobby than what you just wrote!


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 16, 2017)

I might be a bit naive but I don't think too many of the morphs in Australia have actually come from overseas other than the jag's.

I think there is more activity with illegal export from Australia as there is still high demand for many Australian species overseas with many still commanding prices far higher than they are worth over here. (I remember being quoted 5,000 UKP for a Diamond hatchie many years ago). Just look at the prices BHP's fetch in the US compared to Oz, not much point risking a jail term to import a snake you will lose money on.


I see a few diseases that I believe have been brought in though and obviously exotic's are still hitting the market. These are readily available & cheap overseas but might fetch a good price on the black market over here (though I can't understand why anyone would spend their hard earned on something they know is illegal when there are terrific Australian animals widely available).


Problem is we can discuss the origins of the Oz morphs as much as we want, the facts are that we will never truly know.


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## pinefamily (Mar 16, 2017)

It's not just python morphs that come from overseas. As I understand it, some bearded dragon morphs "suddenly" appeared in Australia.
So on top of the over the top statement about John Weigel above, perhaps the one about python snobbery can be disregarded as nonsense too.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

Oops, don't know what happened there...


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

kingofnobbys said:


> Weigel and co were only in this to make money and lots of it as fast as possible by what ever means..... IMO they added nothing of any benefit to the hobby.



That's a very ungenerous and ignorant statement, but then, these broad ranging and smug insults seem to be a characteristic of yours. Have you ever spent time with John Weigel? Do you know anything of the other colleagues he was involved with when Snake Ranch was conceived and developed? Do you know the time, effort and financial costs involved in getting the first 5 Rough-scaled Pythons into captivity so that they became a $200 snake within 10 or 12 years? I suppose you'll say the same about Gavin Bedford and his quest to bring Oenpellis into the culture.

I have had the good fortune to spend quite some time with John Weigel over the years, and know him to be modest, generous and very knowledgeable. You need to get out more.

As far as morph imports go, my observations have been that usually within 2-3 years of a distinct morph being bred overseas, they "turn up" spontaneously in this country - just enough time for the original animal/s to mature and produce their own clutches to prove the morph as heritable. I confess it's just my observation because I'm not interested in them at all - never owned one, never want to.


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## Waterrat (Mar 16, 2017)

Gee, the King of knobs has spoken again.
How insulting! There are only a few people in this country who have done more than John for herpetoculture, public education and the hobby.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Mar 16, 2017)

If theres one thing ive noticed in my time on aps its that old knob loves commenting on things he has sfa knowledge of.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

Truly, given some of the types involved in this hobby, and the cynicism one can develop after long-term exposure to them, John would have to be one of the best humoured and nicest people I've ever met through my interest in reptiles. The decades of effort he has put into supporting the hobby would be hard to match anywhere. Knob's comment says far more about him than it does JW.

Jamie


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## Scutellatus (Mar 16, 2017)

I see that this forum has not changed one bit. There is still the mis-informed that make bold ridiculous statements, which should be thought through before being posted. Then there is the vultures that come out to pick them pieces. I don't agree with knobbys statements but I don’t think text bashing him is the way to deal with it. I am of the opinion that he may have assumed that John Wiegel was only involved in Snake Ranch and has no knowledge of his other endeavours. These types of replies to his statement are why this forum died a very sad death. Now that it is slowly being revived, people need to be mindful of attracting new members, whether they were previously members of APS with a wealth of experience or people new to the hobby.



Rob said:


> His work with Morelia carinata, and a little book he wrote by the name of Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity. This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.





pythoninfinite said:


> Have you ever spent time with John Weigel? Do you know anything of the other colleagues he was involved with when Snake Ranch was conceived and developed? Do you know the time, effort and financial costs involved in getting the first 5 Rough-scaled Pythons into captivity so that they became a $200 snake within 10 or 12 years?
> 
> I have had the good fortune to spend quite some time with John Weigel over the years, and know him to be modest, generous and very knowledgeable.



The two posts above that I have quoted part of are all that needed to be said. They contain factual information without any personal or demeaning attacks. They majority of us are adults lets act like it and present the forum in a mature way to all existing and future members.


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 16, 2017)

I thought mutations came about purely by chance. If that's the case then wouldn't an average keeper have a chance of ending up with a morph? I don't really follow morphs as I'm not particularly interested in them, and on top of that most of them are unobtainable in Western Australia, but it appears that the big, well known breeders end up with them first. Is this because they tend to have large collections? It raises their chance of ending up with something different?


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## Buggster (Mar 16, 2017)

What's scary is how easy it can be to get an exotic reptile in Aus- particularly smaller animals like Ball Pythons.

Google 'Ball Pythons for sale Australia' and I bet you a large amount of these exotic pythons will claim to be for sale in Aus. While I reckon a large majority of these are a scam, I do think there is some truth behind some of them- and let's not forget the 'secret' underground trade in exotics that undoubtedly exists.

If the government put any effort into finding these animals, I'm sure that they'd be able to find a large number of these exotics very easily. 
When was the last time you heard of an arrest being made for someone illegally importing reptiles? Every single instantace I hear of, the reptiles are secondary to some major drug/arms bust


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> I see that this forum has not changed one bit. There is still the mis-informed that make bold ridiculous statements, which should be thought through before being posted. Then there is the vultures that come out to pick them pieces. I don't agree with knobbys statements but I don’t think text bashing him is the way to deal with it. I am of the opinion that he may have assumed that John Wiegel was only involved in Snake Ranch and has no knowledge of his other endeavours. These types of replies to his statement are why this forum died a very sad death. Now that it is slowly being revived, people need to be mindful of attracting new members, whether they were previously members of APS with a wealth of experience or people new to the hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Scutellatus, that may be a fair enough comment, but the member who posted a very demeaning comment about someone who has tirelessly worked for decades to break new ground and develop pet herpetology in this country should not have his comment justified. That member landed the first "text-bashing" blow, and his comment was not benign, even though it might have been made in ignorance.

Facebook is the reason why these forums are not as active as they were a few years ago, not strong debates.

Jamie


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## pinefamily (Mar 16, 2017)

Personally, I don't think there were any personal attacks in any posts. Vehemently disagreeing with an outrageous post maybe, but nothing like the old APS was.
This particular forum member has a habit of making statements, inflammatory and otherwise, and either not backing them up or simply ducking for cover when called out.


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## Waterrat (Mar 16, 2017)

There is a difference between humble opinion and a derogatory statement.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

I would say "informed" opinion Michael... 

Jamie


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## Scutellatus (Mar 16, 2017)

pythoninfinite said:


> Scutellatus, that may be a fair enough comment, but the member who posted a very demeaning comment about someone who has tirelessly worked for decades to break new ground and develop pet herpetology in this country should not have his comment justified. That member landed the first "text-bashing" blow, and his comment was not benign, even though it might have been made in ignorance.
> 
> Facebook is the reason why these forums are not as active as they were a few years ago, not strong debates.
> 
> Jamie


As I said in my post I don't agree with what he said. But for everyone to stoop to his level is not something I think is right. It is things like "His next crap", "You need to get out more" and "King of knobs" that I feel need to be left out of a mature discussion. The old saying that ' Two wrongs don't make a right' is very applicable here.
As for the old forum declining because of Facebook, I beg to differ.
I was a member on the old forum over ten years ago and saw quite a lot of this going on. So much so that I decided to stop visiting the forum. The ridiculous petty attacks on what people wrote, albeit ignorant posts, were nothing short if childish. I am not sure how many people that are members here now were members back then, but if they were I am sure they can attest to the goings on.


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## imalizardbro (Mar 16, 2017)

Jaguar(RPM), zebra and granite all came from over seas.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

I've been around for ten years + too, and I acknowledge that a thick skin was a requirement in the early days, as it is sometimes required now. Facebook has definitely eaten into these forums big time - how many of the big breeders or well known keepers frequent these sites any more? Almost none, but their presence on Facebook is massive and constant, and their ability to maintain constant dialogue with others is greatly assisted by the format of Facebook. Many people are on Facebook almost 24/7.

I believe, for better or worse, that the opinionated conflicts generated on these forums in earlier times actually energised them and helped them maintain membership activity, not that I see that as a good thing generally.

As for my comment about "needing to get out more," it means what I meant it to mean - how about asking around before casting aspersions on someone's character, someone you may not have met, and certainly don't know very well.

Jamie


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## pinefamily (Mar 16, 2017)

Scutellatus, as a member from the "old" APS, I can say with confidence that the posts on here, while perhaps having a dig, are nowhere near as bad as those on the old threads. it got to a point where I wouldn't post, or ask a question, for fear of being burnt. There have only been one or two threads on the "new" APS that have engendered "active" discussion, and only one that required moderation. Funnily enough, one of the main offenders in that last thread was from the old days.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Funnily enough, one of the main offenders in that last thread was from the old days.



Oooh... was that me ?

J


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## Scutellatus (Mar 16, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Scutellatus, as a member from the "old" APS, I can say with confidence that the posts on here, while perhaps having a dig, are nowhere near as bad as those on the old threads. it got to a point where I wouldn't post, or ask a question, for fear of being burnt. There have only been one or two threads on the "new" APS that have engendered "active" discussion, and only one that required moderation. Funnily enough, one of the main offenders in that last thread was from the old days.


I realise that they are nowhere near as bad, but if not nipped in the bud early the disease spreads. My only real reason for posting was to see the new forum not become the old forum. I do understand the frustration with people that post ill-informed and ridiculous statements. It is the way people deal with them that I think is the issue. A robust discussion is great, when people start ridiculing the poster it makes them no better than said poster. I never argue with idiots because they will bring you down to their level and win everytime. I do understand what you were saying about Facebook pythoninfinite, it is like having your own mini forum.


pythoninfinite said:


> Oooh... was that me ?
> 
> J


I must admit that did give me a little chuckle.
Let's make the new APS something that people look up to. Like the original site was, before all the garbage that contributed to its demise.


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## pinefamily (Mar 16, 2017)

Haha, no Jamie. Right thread though. You know who I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure he has a different screen name now.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> before all the garbage that contributed to its demise.



I still believe it was Facebook, not the keyboard battles, that has diminished the presence on these forums... stubborn old fool that I am !

J


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## Scutellatus (Mar 16, 2017)

How about we go 50/50. Hahahaha.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2017)

I reckon 60-40 my way... ! Oh OK, 50-50 it is lol.

J


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## Wally (Mar 16, 2017)

Ian dishes it out as good as he gets.


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## kingofnobbys (Mar 17, 2017)

Stuart said:


> I generally try not to take the bait but...
> 
> What fact based evidence do you have to support this claim as that is a very bold statement to make on APS considering John Weigels contributions to the hobby...



Did he ? 

Must have been before I joined the hobby or started keeping a few pet lizards.


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