# WAtoday Snake Relocation



## Nero Egernia (Jan 20, 2018)

A video of a relocation. I found this distressing to watch. Seeing it thrash about like that strongly reminded me of a snake that had just been ran over.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 20, 2018)

i don't see why they think they need such a strong grip, you can see it squishing a lot where it is, tongs have broken the bones of snakes before, not too far-fetched to think this did some serious damage. poor thing.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 20, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> Seeing it thrash about like that strongly reminded me of a snake that had just been ran over.



Agreed. Certainly looks like an animal in pain to me.
Would be interesting to hear the catchers response/reasoning behind such a harsh method of capture. I would also be concerned that if the animal were to get loose in such an angered state it would likely bite anyone within its reach. Certainly not the most professional of captures I have seen.


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## GBWhite (Jan 20, 2018)

Disgusting and reinforces my previous comments regarding the use of tongs.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 20, 2018)

Disgusting and not necessary, the poor snake was in pain. like to see how he would behave if grabbed by a big set of tongs.


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 20, 2018)

It's certainly causing a stir on Facebook. I think there's a petition going around to have this fellow's licence revoked.


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## Bl69aze (Jan 20, 2018)

Atleast these Tongs don’t look as damaging as the common metal ones.. 
not saying they are good to use however. No one should use tongs! Especially a “qualified” catcher


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 20, 2018)

In WA the Department stipulates that in snake relocation course you have to teach capture using tongs and not tailing. Whether tongs are required and used is up to the individual and the circumstances. Irrespective of that, this clown is inept and should NOT be doing snake relocations.
· For starters, the bag should have been in his other hand, not the snake hook. In the circumstances shown you'd use either the hook OR the tongs, not both. 
· Once held by the tongs, the snake should have been bagged ASAP to minimise stress on it.
· What the hell was he trying to do with the snake hook? Pin its head? Why? All he succeeded in doing was to cause it more pain and distress.
· The bag should have brought to the snake, NOT the other way around.
· He was using ‘Gentle Giant’ brand tongs, which while one of less brutal designs are not so gentle. They are, however, half the price of ‘Raptor’ brand, which truly are gentle (no matter how hard the handles are squeezed).

So what we get to see is an individual deliberately antagonising a snake and then carrying it around on the tongs, so that he can film himself catching a vicious, deadly animal. One can only wonder what was edited out and why, where the snake suddenly reappears facing the other way in the tongs.

Idiots like that do so much damage to the public image of snakes. It also does nothing for the image of snake relocators. Apart from the appalling technique, he also demonstrates a callous disregard for the animal itself. He should be ashamed to show that video to anyone!


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## GBWhite (Jan 21, 2018)

The introduction of using tongs as a means to handle vens is directly associated with insurance issues relating to OH&S as a safe SOW for not just relocators but also those engaged in the removal of snakes for large corporates (eg; mining industry) as well as for those in the zoo industry and those undertaking academic studies which involves handle vens on a regular basis and in particular, dangerous vens. Naturally it is set in place as a means to protect the handler from suffering a serious bite but from what I’ve witnessed and heard it demonstrates little concern for the welfare of the snake. The use of tongs does have its merits in certain circumstances but just like learning the correct and safe method to tail snakes it takes time to become proficient in their use. As far as I’m concerned the welfare of the snake should be just as an important consideration as that of the welfare of the person.

In situations where the handler is engaged in a zoo or similar institute or employed with an environmental consultant the less experienced have the opportunity to be directed in the correct method in the use of the tongs to not only reduce the risk of personal harm but also to reduce or preferably eliminate any injury to the animal. Unfortunately this is not the case with those intending to undertake snake removal and relocations. They attend a course and are then set free, tongs in hand, without any further mentoring and as a result we see or hear of situations as demonstrated in this video.

I have people who use them to capture and relocate specimens tell me that they cause no harm to the snake however, considering that the animal is released back into the wild a short while after capture or even a day or two later, how does anyone know if the snake has suffered a serious injury or not.

Call me a dinosaur if you want but I’m strongly of the opinion that, in the case of removals, tongs should only be used as a last resort. If a person is not trained to gain the skill and confidence to tail snakes they should not be issued with a license in the first place. I'll add that this takes years of hands on experience and can not be taught during a 1 or 2 day training course.

I could go one about training courses and training providers and the fact that I believe the current system in place for issuing not just removal licenses but also to certify people as competent training providers in all States & Territories is in desperate need of an overall but I’ve said enough and will leave it for another day.


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## Stuart (Jan 21, 2018)

I remember those tongs came in my first snake relocation kit I bought.. I also remember the "discussion" I had about wasting money when I threw them in the bin..

Very poor capture when he had a few options availible prior to choosing tongs.

@GBWhite has a very good point about an overhaul of the current certification requiring a review IMO.


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## cement (Jan 22, 2018)

I've never used tongs, I don't even ever remember touching a pair, And I can't think of any moments where I would consider "oh, this is a tong scenario." It's extremely rare that I use a pinner. I can only imagine though that with a snake that constricts, like an eastern brown, once 'tonged' , if it were to panic and constrict the tongs, and then exert strength to try and pull back to free itself, it could easily damage itself. Theres a point where if you've got a snake by the mid to tail section and its got the first quarter of the length of its body in a hole or wrapped around timbers etc, you can feel it exertion as it pulls away, and there is no way you can just pull on it like a tug of war without damage, so you have to simply let it go.
With tongs though, I would imagine that there is no contact so no feel, and the snake could twist and exert, putting way to much pressure on muscles and vertebrae, in an unnatural movement, making it really easy to injure itself. Sort of like when you do a simple little move which is out of alignment and bang , there goes your back.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 22, 2018)

cement said:


> I've never used tongs, I don't even ever remember touching a pair, And I can't think of any moments where I would consider "oh, this is a tong scenario." It's extremely rare that I use a pinner. I can only imagine though that with a snake that constricts, like an eastern brown, once 'tonged' , if it were to panic and constrict the tongs, and then exert strength to try and pull back to free itself, it could easily damage itself. Theres a point where if you've got a snake by the mid to tail section and its got the first quarter of the length of its body in a hole or wrapped around timbers etc, you can feel it exertion as it pulls away, and there is no way you can just pull on it like a tug of war without damage, so you have to simply let it go.
> With tongs though, I would imagine that there is no contact so no feel, and the snake could twist and exert, putting way to much pressure on muscles and vertebrae, in an unnatural movement, making it really easy to injure itself. Sort of like when you do a simple little move which is out of alignment and bang , there goes your back.


I agree that the tongs are overkill.
I don't think you can use the comparison to our backs though Cement.
Most chiropractic injuries to humans are caused by not being warm/limber, having muscle tension or a pre-existing injury that exacerbates muscle tension.
Snakes with their different muscle structure and ability to coil would rarely if ever have any muscle tension etc.
I think the twisting would break vertebrae and ribs in the location of the tongs but not cause their back to be 'out' for want of a better word.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 22, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> I could go one about training courses and training providers and the fact that I believe the current system in place for issuing not just removal licenses but also to certify people as competent training providers in all States & Territories is in desperate need of an overall but I’ve said enough and will leave it for another day.





Stuart said:


> @GBWhite has a very good point about an overhaul of the current certification requiring a review IMO.



I agree gents. But to take it a step further I would go as far as to say that the standard of adult training and education generally in Australia is in a mess. I have worked in the field for many years and the number of people I come across who were simply signed off as competent because "you look like you know what you're doing" is astounding.
I'm not saying this happens with all qualifications or training providers, (or indeed in any reptile relocation operation) but there is enough evidence to support that this could be a problem and if it is the case we can't be too harsh on the re-locator but someone should be going to check up on where he did his training.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 22, 2018)

I am not familiar with the training procedures for snake handling but if it is an Insurance and OH&S issue it is regrettable and what do the authorities responsible for the protection of native animals or even the RSPCA think about this? Unfortunately no training course can replace years of hands on experience and a lot of snake relocators seem to get off on the snake catcher thing with no empathy for the animals. Certainly in my case I learnt early on that all animals react directly in proportion to any "attack or threat" to them. Handle them gently and calmly so they do not feel threatened and they behave accordingly, this is especially true with birds and reptiles that have evolved to fear anything that tries to grab them and some Vets and Wires people are very good with injured an orphan animals. All my early snake catching was with WA species without a hook or hoop bag and I found even Dugites (with some exceptions) and Tigers could be amazingly calm if handled gently, so much so that it was easy to become too casual and over confident but I was never bitten.


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## cement (Jan 23, 2018)

Well sorry Scullatus for not being so precise and detailed in my thoughts. Does this sound any better - Keep in mind I don't, have never, and probably will never use tongs. so the chances of me first hand seeing what they are capable of or testing them probably won't happen. But I've been relocating snakes for well over a decade, in fact I was out till 2am this morning.
"I think the twisting would break vertebrae and ribs in the location of the tongs." Exactly.
They can't twist without exerting pressure from muscles. Who says the snake isn't cold, doesn't have an injury already?
And whats a chiropractic injury anyway? But seeing you brought it up, its a good way to explain what I mean. Think of it as a reverse Chiro treatment.
You basically agreed with me without even knowing it.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 23, 2018)

cement said:


> Well sorry Scullatus for not being so precise and detailed in my thoughts. Does this sound any better - Keep in mind I don't, have never, and probably will never use tongs. so the chances of me first hand seeing what they are capable of or testing them probably won't happen. But I've been relocating snakes for well over a decade, in fact I was out till 2am this morning.
> "I think the twisting would break vertebrae and ribs in the location of the tongs." Exactly.
> They can't twist without exerting pressure from muscles. Who says the snake isn't cold, doesn't have an injury already?
> And whats a chiropractic injury anyway? But seeing you brought it up, its a good way to explain what I mean. Think of it as a reverse Chiro treatment.
> You basically agreed with me without even knowing it.


There is no need to get testy about buddy.


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## cement (Jan 23, 2018)

Testy?? I'm not sure what that means, or it's relevance. If you quote me and disagree, I'm all good with that. It's the made up term "chiropractic injury" that you threw in that I don't understand, so I tried to make myself clearer. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I'm simply adding my thoughts as a reptile relocator who has never used these apparatus. is that ok buddy?


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## Bl69aze (Jan 23, 2018)

I’d only ever use the tongs as a feeding tongs so I’m not within striking distance of a venomous snake


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 23, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> I’d only ever use the tongs as a feeding tongs so I’m not within striking distance of a venomous snake


The only tongs I'm using are the BBQ tongs to turn my snags.


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## Stompsy (Jan 23, 2018)

Does anyone have an alternate link to the video... it seems to have been removed.


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 23, 2018)

Stompsy said:


> Does anyone have an alternate link to the video... it seems to have been removed.



I believe the video's been taken down due to all the controversy.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 23, 2018)

Nero Egernia said:


> I believe the video's been taken down due to all the controversy.



Thats a good thing. 
The catcher must be fully aware by now how this action has been deemed as inappropriate by the wider reptile community. Hopefully he has learned something from this and he makes a change to his methods in the future.


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