# Melbourne Reptile Warehouse



## Miffy (Mar 14, 2007)

Does anyone know if this shop is still open (Melbourne Reptile Warehouse), I have tried phoning them a few times and there is no answer.


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## koubee (Mar 14, 2007)

i think it's closed for renovations


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## DaveInOz (Mar 14, 2007)

It's been closed for renos for months.

Last RUMOUR I heard was it closed for good.


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## koubee (Mar 14, 2007)

reptalica works near it, ask him.


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## moosenoose (Mar 14, 2007)

From what I was told it has been shut down by a third party. Should have happened earlier in my opinion. Dirty cages, dead animals, and that's just from what I saw out the front!! The places started off well enough, and then desended into a dismal hole!


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## yans40 (Mar 14, 2007)

They have been changing the sign on the door for months now. Saying they are re-opening on XXX date. No renovations look to be happening.

Someone has defaced the sign with the words "We sell sick and dying animals" that was there for at least two weeks.

I have also heard other bad comments about them from locals so I won't be rushing in if they ever reopen.


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## reptalica (Mar 14, 2007)

Definately not open and have heard something different to the above but don't want to post the reason as it would be considered hearsay and unsubstantiated rumour.


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## Freeloader (Mar 14, 2007)

A close friend of mine went to the melb rep w/house and the animals were in very poor condition so she rang DSE. a few days later the doors closed.


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## shamous1 (Mar 14, 2007)

*Rumours*

Unless someone knows for sure what has happened it is all here say. I heard they were selling exotics under the counter too bit unless we hear the truth from someone who worked there like Adam we will never know.


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## Freeloader (Mar 14, 2007)

A close friend of mine went to the Melbourne Reptile Warehouse. The animals were in very poor health. So she rang DSE to complain. The doors closed a couple of days later. She was given a very strong assurance that her complaint would be followed up.


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## mike72 (Mar 14, 2007)

They have been closed for 4 - 5 months now apparently for renovations, nothing seems to be changing. they were soposed to reopen before christmas. Oh well there are plenty of other places to go to.


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## Dan123 (Mar 14, 2007)

ive got a few mates who are friends/ex co-workers with arron and they say hes still intent hes re opening.


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## reptalica (Mar 14, 2007)

Maybe the big 4 foot lacie is on the loose again and they can't catch it. Boy that thing is scary.


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## Miffy (Mar 14, 2007)

I dont know how you could keep a big shop like that closed for so long. 

Imagne how much rent they would be paying each week with no return.


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## warp81 (Mar 14, 2007)

they were doing reno's when i went there in september


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## green_chairs (Mar 15, 2007)

I live in the area and it was my local. The shop got flooded last year (only about 5 or 10cm) and they shut for one day to fix that up. Spoke to Pets Paradise in Greensborough (virtually around the corner) and they informed me that it would not be reopening, no other stores deal with them any more. Apparently Arron owes lots of money to lots of people/organisations so there is a fair bit of trouble afoot. 

I always was sceptical though seeing as the shop was run by a bunch of 14 year olds...(no offence to the kids, but it was a big shop and needed a lot of professional work...)


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## Sdaji (Mar 15, 2007)

It's about time! I've seen so many sick, dying and dead animals on display in that hell hole, and the fact that they were poaching and selling exotics was no secret at all, in fact, it was widely known (not just speculated/rumoured) for _years_ before they finally closed down, even the authorities knew - as is the case with several others which are still merrily conducting business. Funnily enough, until a couple of years ago, this shop had the best reputation of all the Victorian pet shops which sold reptiles. This shows how (un)aware most people are and what allowing reptiles to be sold in pet shops opens the door to.


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## reptalica (Mar 15, 2007)

Thanks for your comments Sdaji. I think the only way the industry will benefit is by people like us blowing the horn on some of the shonky dealers. It only can only further strengthen the good ones we do have and make them a lot more viable and reputable.

Anyone agree? Never been one to "dob", "give up" or whatever but when it comes to an animal's welfare the buck has to stop somewhere.


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## snakes_imperial (Mar 22, 2007)

So does anybody actually have any evidence to back up their theories? or is it all "my friend is friends with so and so who knows all about the situation?" or "this shop who must know all about it because they're a pet shop too" Maybe you should just learn to spell the guys name correctly first, might put you on the right track.


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## alex_c (Mar 22, 2007)

i bought a female central bearded from there about a year ago and it died 2 weeks later atleast they replaced it though.


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## VaranusWilson (Mar 22, 2007)

i was speakin to a bloke who bought a bredli i think last week from there. i think all reno's re done. yeah it was a scum hole. the bloke who owns it knows his reptiles but just didnt sell his animals and asked too much for them. the laceys he's got there have been there for a couple of years. im gonna go down there 2moz. ill get back 2 ya's wid full reports


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## shamous1 (Mar 22, 2007)

*Confused*



snakes_imperial said:


> So does anybody actually have any evidence to back up their theories? or is it all "my friend is friends with so and so who knows all about the situation?" or "this shop who must know all about it because they're a pet shop too" Maybe you should just learn to spell the guys name correctly first, might put you on the right track.



Not a bad first post here. Hello my name is snakes_imperial it will be good to get to know you guys....something along those lines would be good.

As far as spelling the guys names right...who are you referring too? If it was me I said "Adam" if it is actually Addam then so be it.

I don't mind the place personally. I have never seen dead animals there. I have seen mites and they were tneded to as soon as Adam Addam spotted them.

If you are who I think you are tell people what situation the place is in. Are the reno's finished, why was it closed for so long etc etc etc.

Might help cut the gosspi down a great deal, although people will always gossip. I hear it's good for the cholesterol:lol:


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## junglepython2 (Mar 22, 2007)

I think it's Aaron not Adam.


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## VaranusWilson (Mar 23, 2007)

firstly guys n gals, its aaron. i know cos his g/f is my old skool buddy. He shut down cos there was a lot of complaints from customers bout mites bein all over his animals and there were forums like this one made u just to bag out hisstore. obviously the wrong person heard and some authority stepped in and told him to shape up. also in regards to the workers. i spoke to him once bout a job and even though i was a friend of his missus's he said he wouldnt pay me for the first month or two cos it would be a "training" period. this is why u have young ppl who know nothing there. there getting paid either nothing or peanuts. there was one older guy there apart from aaron who i spoke to when it was open last year n he knew wat the go was, but im pretty sure he was a mate of aarons helpin out. anywho ill be down there 2moz nd if he is open ill ask im directly to ease all of ya'ls worryin :lol:


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## VaranusWilson (Mar 23, 2007)

oh and dreason he took so long was prob cos he had so much 2 do and no help


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## yans40 (Mar 23, 2007)

*On the soapbox*

Ok my two bobs worth.

I don't know the guy, and I don't know anything about the shop apart from what i've read or heard second hand.

Having said that, I went there late last year just before they shut down and was told they would be closing for a few days. (This info was first hand)

Now although i'm a local it is still a 10 minute drive to this establisment and I have made several trips to read the ever changing sign on the door. (Opening next week, week after etc etc)I have been let down too many times. IMO if you cannot give reliable info, don't give any info at all. 

A huge part of any business is customer service and I think this is one quality that the owner of this store owner lacks BIG TIME.

I have given them many chances and won't be giving them any more!


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## snakesrule (Mar 23, 2007)

This is not second hand information. I personally saw dead and dieing animals and yes the snakes did have mites on a couple occasions that I saw.
I do not believe he should be allowed to trade because if you are not prepared to keep animals in a healthy condition you should not keep them at all.


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## shamous1 (Mar 23, 2007)

*Aaron*



VaranusWilson said:


> firstly guys n gals, its aaron. i know cos his g/f is my old skool buddy. He shut down cos there was a lot of complaints from customers bout mites bein all over his animals and there were forums like this one made u just to bag out hisstore. obviously the wrong person heard and some authority stepped in and told him to shape up. also in regards to the workers. i spoke to him once bout a job and even though i was a friend of his missus's he said he wouldnt pay me for the first month or two cos it would be a "training" period. this is why u have young ppl who know nothing there. there getting paid either nothing or peanuts. there was one older guy there apart from aaron who i spoke to when it was open last year n he knew wat the go was, but im pretty sure he was a mate of aarons helpin out. anywho ill be down there 2moz nd if he is open ill ask im directly to ease all of ya'ls worryin :lol:



Aaron? I'll take your word for it then. He's the guy with the pony tail. Knows his stuff.

It's a pity that he can't get the help he needs. Maybe as a friend of a friend you could let him know peoples feelings about Customer Service, animal husbandry etc etc.

It could be a great place but I think he needs to listen to people and their thoughts.

I'm pretty sure he gets on here and would see things for himself and I hope he takes note, after all I believe people are concerned about the animals welfare foremost.


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## TitanDaFreshie (Mar 23, 2007)

its not on the main road anymore. its round the corner bout 4 doors dwn, down an alley/driveway. I havent been there for a while, bout 4 months but i now thats where they moved too.


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## reptalica (Mar 23, 2007)

What street titan?? I went there tonight after work to where they were on Plenty Road and the hessian what ever it was is still over the gates. Didnt look to see if there was a sign "moved to a new location". 

Anyone else with any further particulars????


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## shamous1 (Mar 23, 2007)

*Plenty road*

They are and I believe still are on Plenty Road. Just down the laneway. If someone who knows Aaron can tell us otherwise and if we can get a specific answer as to whether or not they are open or when they will re-open would be great.


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## snakes_imperial (Mar 24, 2007)

snakesrule said:


> This is not second hand information. I personally saw dead and dieing animals and yes the snakes did have mites on a couple occasions that I saw.
> I do not believe he should be allowed to trade because if you are not prepared to keep animals in a healthy condition you should not keep them at all.


 
snakesrule, did you point out these 'dead and dying animals' you saw to any staff, or maybe you reported it to the 'authorities' like everybody else?
Hey didnt I see "we sell dead and dying animals" scribbled on one of their signs?
hmm maybe you saw it too ...  

As far as I know (ick i didnt want to say that) the place was closed down while they sprayed for mites. I was told it would take a few days, but can you imagen spraying a place that big? All of the frogs/insects/fish would have to be moved somewhere else for at least 2 weeks to avoid killing them (for those that didnt know mite spray is lethal for them) 
Its not as if mites are hard for reptiles in an enviroment like that to catch. And i dont mean dirty conditions ect ect, I mean animals coming and going all the time. People can take their animals to get sexed, or just to show off, so obviously thats a very easy pathway for mites. There is only so much quarantine would do really if you think about it.

Ive gotten around to alot of other stores that sell reptiles, and it seems most can explain the very basics of keeping reptiles, but when it comes to our animals dont we want to know more than the basics to keep them in prime condition? The advise Ive been given over the years from Aaron and other staff from the reptile warehouse has always been right on the money and when he/they didnt know something, they'd be keen to find out not only for me but for themselves.
The shop was awsome when it was in the front, but it was when they moved into the back one that it seemed to go downhill and get quite grotty at times. But im sure, like everything else in this world, including why it hasnt re-opened yet, there is a reasonable explanation for that and maybe if we just bite our occasional spiteful tongues and sit tight we might find out what it is. There are plenty of places to buy reptile food and accessories from, and plenty of breeders to buy animals from.
Unfortunatly there are always people who bagg other people/shops for whatever reasons. Maybe your friend told you, or maybe you overheard it sitting on the toilet cubicle next to yours, or maybe you saw something you didnt like. if it was that serious ie. animal cruelty, report it to the RSPCA (who despite what alot of people think, have to act on every call they recieve including reptile calls seeing as though reptiles are 'creatures great and small') and get on with your life.

Besides, if the place is as bad as a few people say it is, then how come ive been able to go there for like 7 years with it still being open? i dont know about you, but i doubt id be able to make a living off dead animals...


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## alex_c (Mar 24, 2007)

snakes_imperial said:


> snakesrule, did you point out these 'dead and dying animals' you saw to any staff, or maybe you reported it to the 'authorities' like everybody else?
> Hey didnt I see "we sell dead and dying animals" scribbled on one of their signs?
> hmm maybe you saw it too ...
> 
> ...


 yeah aaron certainly knows his stuff and is very helpful. its a huge shop so it would be hard to manage.


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## raptor (Mar 24, 2007)

Since the shop moved out the back, they have been owned by a third party, so maybe the money for renos isn't forthcoming. I've also heard the DSE rumours, which wouldn't surprise me. Maybe it's the final straw with the exotics, maybe it's the conditions, maybe Aaron just couldn't be bothered coming to work (again!). It's unlikely we'll ever know.


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## SnakeLover(coastals) (Mar 24, 2007)

Melbourne Reptile Warehouse is being closed down i no this for a fact i will find out more information next week and let everyone no


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## shamous1 (Mar 24, 2007)

*Closed down*

Interesting! Being closed down by the owner / managers or being closed down by authorities?

This will be interesting to find out. Look forward to your post SnakeLover.

It will be a shame either way. The kids and I got our first snake bite at MRW. A little water python hatchling. That bite gave us the kids the confidence that they could cope with getting bitten.

There are not enough qulaity places around that deal directly with reps.


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## SnakeLover(coastals) (Mar 24, 2007)

i allready no its by authorities but ill have more info next week


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## snakes_imperial (Mar 24, 2007)

if they've been closed since november why would you suddenly be able to find out now snakelover?


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## mrsclk (Mar 25, 2007)

i think its sad. he is shut for good, and I am trying to buy the shop to start it up again. will all you critics come and support, or dob me in for the first thing that goes wrong also. I helped out to look after the animals a few times, did anyone else, or just run to the dse?


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## mrsclk (Mar 25, 2007)

i think there are a few good aquarium / reptile shops in melbourne, but there was only 1 1005 reptile dedicated shop .( melbourne reptile Warehouse) and aaron knew, knows, and always will know, alot more about any reptile, than most will ever. I think the poor blokes problem is that he is still alittle young, and took on a huge project out back, and he is not a great buisiness man, just a great reptile expert. If only a few more people would put there hand up to help, rather than run to the dse, and rspca, we would all have a great shop to go to, and a great expert in the feild to help us with any problems, questions we may have regarding all our species. I will do my betst to take this place over, or to help Aaron get back on board and get the shop up to scratch. will anyone else please help? please let us know if you are willing to spend a few hours to help out the animals, and the shop that we have all been going to for many years noa. I have been going there for 10 years now, and I think its a shame to have to got to Coburg aquarium, or some other place where people have taken on reptiles just to make a buck, and not because thay know there stuff and their reptile talk.


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## mrsclk (Mar 25, 2007)

the 1005 in the previous message was supposed to be 100% reptile dedicated, sorry guys


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## shamous1 (Mar 26, 2007)

*Support*

In my opnion there is no excuse for animals being kept in sub-standard conditions - however - saying that, I would always tell the shop owner first and see what their reaction is first and secondly - how they rectify the situation.

If things don't approve afetr warnings I would have no hesitation in acting in an appropriate manner and if that means contacting DSE, then I would.

Like I have stated, I spoke to Aaron about mites there once and he immediately rectified the situation by taping and spraying enclosures etc etc etc. This satisfied me with what I had seen.

It is obvious however that problems must have been ongoing. MRW would not have been shut down for a one off event. There must have been ongoing problems.

I hope things work out if you consider taking over "mrsclk". I would always support a god establishment.


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## SnakeLover(coastals) (Mar 26, 2007)

i found out last week that it was being closed down but i will find out more info on Thursday i find out by a mate his dad works for reptile authorities


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## snakes_imperial (Mar 27, 2007)

haha.. "reptile authorities"...


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## Jungletrans (Mar 27, 2007)

mrsclk . I dont have any spare time to help but let me know when you reopen as l want to buy another python from you . Keep the shop clean and the give ups will move on to someone else .


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## yans40 (Mar 28, 2007)

*Second second second chance*

mrsclk. I also don't have any spare time. But like Jungletrans and despite my previous response on this thread. I will give the shop another go as long as both the shop; and the animals are kept in good condition.

I wish you well with getting this venture off the ground. It is going to be a huge job!!


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## Sdaji (Mar 28, 2007)

Why are you so willing to support poachers and exotic dealers who mistreat animals?


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## Jungletrans (Mar 28, 2007)

*Mrw*



Sdaji said:


> Why are you so willing to support poachers and exotic dealers who mistreat animals?



If l paid too much attention to every rumour , put down and negative opinion on this site l would be too scared to do anything or shop anywhere . These sort of fear tactics are too widely used by the current government for me to take much notice of them . This person is talking about starting from scratch with new managment and is still tarred with the same old brush . While it is still a free country l will support anyone l want to .


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## SnakeLover(coastals) (Mar 28, 2007)

i will support anyone who opens up a reptile shop that looks after the animals makes sure there enclosures are clean and again the reptiles need to be well looked after.

also im sorry i wont be able to supply any more information about Melbourne reptile warehouse as i cant find out information anymore it is confidential.


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## spilota_variegata (Mar 28, 2007)

Don't know what is happening, but I did a search on the ASIC webpage and they are still a registered business.. Little help I know


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## Sdaji (Mar 28, 2007)

Wow. It just goes to show how difficult it is to get a bad reputation in this game!


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## grimbeny (Mar 28, 2007)

lol


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## yans40 (Mar 28, 2007)

Sdaji, the guy just said that he was going to start from scatch....How does he inherit a bad rep?

What if he was to open next door with a new name; does he still have the bad rep you are so very keen to lable him with?

I truly wonder where the motivation comes from with some of the replies on this sight.:shock:


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## boydii (Mar 28, 2007)

they guy sounds like he nows how to look after herps but not a business lol he might not have been able to afford the rent and he was loked up buy the landlord lol idk lol
katya


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## mrsclk (Mar 29, 2007)

*to all*

Boidi and Sadji,

i think you two must be the same personwith two accounts as you are both pesemists. I am sure you both sit in your mum and dads homes with black walls and dream of owning reptiles, as someone with any animal in there care has a heart, and i sure hope you 2 dont have any animals. like i said, i talk from what i know, not what i heard from he said she said. Aaron is not what you think, and then again, if he did sell an exotic as you say, im sure you have broken the rules once or twice. laws are laws, and yes they have to be obided, but some people choose to brake them, and i am sure they pay the ultimate price. why do they need to be slagged by you? I dont think that is fair. as i said, I will try to reopen the shop with new staff, a new clean look, constant care and food programs for all animals, and hopefuly be able to assist even the pesemist crowd. maybe you can come over and help out in the beginning since you seem to feel so strongly about thge animals and the condition they and the shop are in. How about it? will you be there, or just stay on this web site and criticise everyone and everything that you can.

To all that are in support, we will support you, as we all have the same interest. our animals, our reptiles. to all not in support, you will be soon. 

see you soon.


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## Sdaji (Mar 29, 2007)

Yes, I hope one day to own reptiles and paint my black walls another colour. It is a great dream of mine.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Aaron was poaching and selling exotics. I've seen some of these exotics with my own eyes! That many of the animals in that shop were poached could only have been missed by a very stupid monkey which was born without eyes and even then it would have to have been severely drugged. You accuse me of breaking rules? Goodness, if you catch me poaching or dealing in exotics please expose me for the criminal I am! I have no interest in poaching and as long as it's illegal I'll never own an exotic reptile and sure as heck never sell one! It's pretty pathetic to respond to someone who is upset about someone else breaking laws by saying "Oh yeah, we all do it, you probably do it too" - I find it quite disturbing that someone with this attitude is talking about taking over the shop... but perhaps I shouldn't be surprised! Aaron was repeatedly caught breaking serious laws over several years and blantantly displayed his hideous neglect of animal welfare for all to see. If you ever catch me walking past a cage with dead reptiles in plain view every day for a few weeks, before finally disposing of them when someone complains, and repeatedly doing this with many animals over a long period of time, please, let the world know!

If getting upset about people who poach for profit, break laws pertaining to exotics and hideously neglect animals somehow makes me heartless, well, I suppose I'm heartless! If speaking out about it in the hope that it deters others from doing so is wrong, then I suppose I'm in the wrong.

I'm looking to buy my first reptile. Can anyone help? :roll:


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## shamous1 (Mar 29, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> Yes, I hope one day to own reptiles and paint my black walls another colour. It is a great dream of mine.
> 
> I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Aaron was poaching and selling exotics. I've seen some of these exotics with my own eyes! That many of the animals in that shop were poached could only have been missed by a very stupid monkey which was born without eyes and even then it would have to have been severely drugged. You accuse me of breaking rules? Goodness, if you catch me poaching or dealing in exotics please expose me for the criminal I am! I have no interest in poaching and as long as it's illegal I'll never own an exotic reptile and sure as heck never sell one! It's pretty pathetic to respond to someone who is upset about someone else breaking laws by saying "Oh yeah, we all do it, you probably do it too" - I find it quite disturbing that someone with this attitude is talking about taking over the shop... but perhaps I shouldn't be surprised! Aaron was repeatedly caught breaking serious laws over several years and blantantly displayed his hideous neglect of animal welfare for all to see. If you ever catch me walking past a cage with dead reptiles in plain view every day for a few weeks, before finally disposing of them when someone complains, and repeatedly doing this with many animals over a long period of time, please, let the world know!
> 
> ...



Wanna buy a beardy


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## MrBredli (Mar 29, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> I'm looking to buy my first reptile. Can anyone help?


 
You should have entered the comp they had on here the other week Sdaji. I heard they gave away a Woma!


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## Sdaji (Mar 29, 2007)

Shamous: How about a bredli instead? 



MrBredli said:


> You should have entered the comp they had on here the other week Sdaji. I heard they gave away a Woma!



:shock: No way! Someone must be feeling like the absolute luckiest guy in the world right now!


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## mrsclk (Mar 30, 2007)

Sadji,

i didn't say i brake the law, nor did i say you do, nor will i poach because i know that is a crap way of owning anything and in the end, we are all affected. I thinkl that you care, sure, but why don't you answer the, will you come lend a hand question ever. Is it too hard for you to answer, or you just like talking the talk? I am not having a stab at you, but it gets me upset that people which own a few animals think it is an easy task to run 200+. I dont have anywhere neer that amount at the moment, and I know if i was to look after that amount by myself, I am sure I wouldn't have time to scratch my a#%. it is for this reason, i say to you, a dead animal is likely to pop up here or there. I think you exagerate when you say you seen the same animal dead in a tank for weeks, as you would have told them straight up, and they would have removed it straight away. I think you may have some true feelings on this matter, but I think maybe there is an underlying factor I cant see.Maybe you own another shop, maybe you bought an animal off AAron, and looking back now you feel like you got ripped off. I dont know. All I know is what I read here, and by your responses, you have alot of spite for not only AAron, but also for the Melbourne Reptile Warehouse. You are knocking me before i begin, and have from the first message i wrote. for what? I will leave that up to you to know, and us to find out.


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## mrsclk (Mar 30, 2007)

also Sadji,

I have a butterfly for sale, interested.lolololololol lololololol


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## MrBredli (Mar 30, 2007)

mrsclk said:


> Sadji,
> 
> i didn't say i brake the law, nor did i say you do, nor will i poach because i know that is a crap way of owning anything and in the end, we are all affected. I thinkl that you care, sure, but why don't you answer the, will you come lend a hand question ever. Is it too hard for you to answer, or you just like talking the talk? I am not having a stab at you, but it gets me upset that people which own a few animals think it is an easy task to run 200+. I dont have anywhere neer that amount at the moment, and I know if i was to look after that amount by myself, I am sure I wouldn't have time to scratch my a#%. it is for this reason, i say to you, a dead animal is likely to pop up here or there. I think you exagerate when you say you seen the same animal dead in a tank for weeks, as you would have told them straight up, and they would have removed it straight away. I think you may have some true feelings on this matter, but I think maybe there is an underlying factor I cant see.Maybe you own another shop, maybe you bought an animal off AAron, and looking back now you feel like you got ripped off. I dont know. All I know is what I read here, and by your responses, you have alot of spite for not only AAron, but also for the Melbourne Reptile Warehouse. You are knocking me before i begin, and have from the first message i wrote. for what? I will leave that up to you to know, and us to find out.



You haven't even opened the store yet and you're already saying you won't be able to maintain the reptiles without people donating their time! If you can't afford to hire employees to do the tasks required to maintain a clean and healthy collection/store then what the hell are you doing re-opening it?


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## IsK67 (Mar 30, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> You haven't even opened the store yet and you're already saying you won't be able to maintain the reptiles without people donating their time! If you can't afford to hire employees to do the tasks required to maintain a clean and healthy collection/store then what the hell are you doing re-opening it?



'cause profit is everything!!

Capitalism Rules!!

Bawahhahaha 

IsK


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## mrsclk (Mar 30, 2007)

Mr Bredli,

i said i wouldnt be able to look after them myself, that is by myself. At the moment i have 2 businesses, in total, 29 employees, in a different field of work. i think i am capable of employing a few people to work in such an establishment, they would be looking after the animals with me, job done. regarding the donating time, i want to lure out all the dregs that basicaly jump on here and keep on crapping on that they realy care about animals, and are disgusted in the present state of that shop, but are not willing to get of their ass or the phone or computer to do anything about it, but rather talk crap like you are right now on here. I think you people need to take a good look at yourselves and maybe just every so often, instead of critisism behind a computer screeen, get out there and do something worth talking about. 

I hope this clears up your adolecent questions.


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## mrsclk (Mar 30, 2007)

and in business, yes it all comes down to profit and the cash *IsK67*, but i have no worries with money, and i am not going to do this if it happens for money. I will do it because as a 5 year old growing up; in MtMacedon, i played in the creek and bush(while most played with their dolls), searching for animals because i loved them, and it grew on me as i got older. I have always had a passion for animals, all animals, and now i can afford them financialy, and time wise, I have a good collection of them, and the opportunity i think is there for me or someone else that may possibly be in my position right now to take over the care of these reptiles, sell them to make a profit on the hobbie/ interest they love, so why not.


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## IsK67 (Mar 30, 2007)

mrsclk said:


> and in business, yes it all comes down to profit and the cash *IsK67*,



Not always. But that is another topic.

BTW you don't need to be so formal, IsK will do. 

IsK


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## MrBredli (Mar 30, 2007)

Everyone here cares about the animals, that's why the store was reported to the authorities so many times. There will be plenty of people here who would be willing to look after the animals in your shop but don't *expect* them to volunteer their time - you'll have to pay them. It's your responsibility so don't try putting it on anyone else. 

What exactly needs to be done to the store right now? Instead of you sitting behind your computer screen trying to coerce people to help you, why don't be upfront and tell us what needs to be done and what help you need? I'm sure that, if you ask nicely, there will be plenty of people willing to help you get the store up and running. Perhaps you can offer them a discount in return once the store opens, or offer some of them jobs? Why don't you put your money where your mouth is instead criticising everyone else when they are the innocent ones?


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## Aslan (Mar 30, 2007)

I agree with MrBredli's last...

It seems preposterous that with your countless experience in running business you are expecting volunteers to help you earn a dollar...surely you're joking...??

...and just a quick question...have you ever read an issue of Reptiles Australia Magazine? perhaps you should before making ridiculous comments regarding the experience, expertise and ability of other reptile keepers - may I suggest keeping your eye out for a turnip...


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## mrsclk (Mar 30, 2007)

what has the magazine nor the turnip or parsnip, or any other root got to do with this .


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## IsK67 (Mar 30, 2007)

mrsclk said:


> what has the magazine nor the turnip or parsnip, or any other root got to do with this .



Well you could read one while making soup with the others. (I'll let you decide which ones to use where)

Hope this helps?

IsK


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## Sdaji (Mar 30, 2007)

mrsclk said:


> Sadji,
> 
> i didn't say i brake the law, nor did i say you do, nor will i poach because i know that is a crap way of owning anything and in the end, we are all affected. I thinkl that you care, sure, but why don't you answer the, will you come lend a hand question ever. Is it too hard for you to answer, or you just like talking the talk? I am not having a stab at you, but it gets me upset that people which own a few animals think it is an easy task to run 200+. I dont have anywhere neer that amount at the moment, and I know if i was to look after that amount by myself, I am sure I wouldn't have time to scratch my a#%. it is for this reason, i say to you, a dead animal is likely to pop up here or there. I think you exagerate when you say you seen the same animal dead in a tank for weeks, as you would have told them straight up, and they would have removed it straight away. I think you may have some true feelings on this matter, but I think maybe there is an underlying factor I cant see.Maybe you own another shop, maybe you bought an animal off AAron, and looking back now you feel like you got ripped off. I dont know. All I know is what I read here, and by your responses, you have alot of spite for not only AAron, but also for the Melbourne Reptile Warehouse. You are knocking me before i begin, and have from the first message i wrote. for what? I will leave that up to you to know, and us to find out.




You very strongly implied that "everyone" breaks rules and defended poaching and selling exotics. Do I need to quote your post? I find it disturbing when someone with that attitude wants to set up a pet shop and find it curious that you want to resurrect one which was actively doing both.

Why on Earth should I lend you a hand? Do you think you are some sort of charity? You're wanting to start up a business purely with the motive of making money! Do you think I have too little to do as it is? I am no stranger to caring for 200+ animals. I've done this privately in the past, for many years, and have also done it professionally (although not with reptiles). I don't currently have that many because I simply don't have the time or resources to care for them all. Having too many animals to care for is no excuse for not caring for them properly! I am astounded that you would make that suggesting and it just further displays your attitude.

I do not exaggerate when I say I've seen dead reptiles which have been sitting around for weeks. I have even taken photographs of shrivelled up lizards in Reptile Warehouse, which have died, been partially eaten by insects and then dried up. Last year I left the store literally close to throwing up because I was so upset, and later was almost angry enough to post pictures on this site.

Do I have spite for Aaron? Yes, I suppose I do. When someone treats animals in this way, is it surprising? I've gone into many pet shops and pointed out problems such as mites and dead/dying animals. The responses are rarely pleasant and the problems are never solved. When the entire store is filled with blatant horror and you know the guy is breaking many laws, and the authorities already know about it, it's really quite pointless pointing anything out to the owner. The last time I visited the store before it closed, one of the staff tried to sell me a pair of Gillen's Monitors -they were so emaciated and close to death that they could barely move! I certainly never, ever, ever bought an animal from Aaron! I honestly wouldn't have taken an animal from that place if I'd been paid to do so.


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## Lozza (Mar 30, 2007)

I agree, if you don't have the money to employ enough people to do the job properly, why bother? You can't rely on people to donate their precious time so that you can make a buck.
So far you have done nothing for your customer relations which is one of the most important aspects of a new business.


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## Tsidasa (Mar 30, 2007)

mrsclk said:


> Boidi and Sadji,
> 
> i think you two must be the same personwith two accounts as you are both pesemists. I am sure you both sit in your mum and dads homes with black walls and dream of owning reptiles, as someone with any animal in there care has a heart, and i sure hope you 2 dont have any animals. like i said, i talk from what i know, not what i heard from he said she said. Aaron is not what you think, and then again, if he did sell an exotic as you say, im sure you have broken the rules once or twice. laws are laws, and yes they have to be obided, but some people choose to brake them, and i am sure they pay the ultimate price. why do they need to be slagged by you? I dont think that is fair. as i said, I will try to reopen the shop with new staff, a new clean look, constant care and food programs for all animals, and hopefuly be able to assist even the pesemist crowd. maybe you can come over and help out in the beginning since you seem to feel so strongly about thge animals and the condition they and the shop are in. How about it? will you be there, or just stay on this web site and criticise everyone and everything that you can.
> 
> ...



I can't bear to read this thread beyond this point. I've noticed the users that are posting the likes of the above are all new users with very few posts which may or may not be a coincidence.
Look yes I know that sometimes there is a lot of dung slung on this site, however that is part of being on a forum. Sometimes the information we pass on is third hand but it is just supposed to be a way of getting it out there, and it is up to your own discretion what you take away with you.
No one who has spoken so far is intent on kicking a battler when he's down, and yes i can appreciate someone who is young maybe having trouble starting and maintaining a business. However at what point do we stop feeling sorry for him and realise that the incompetence, the lack of employees and the hygiene have all led to animals being kept in poor condition. If the guy has little help, he needs to do some hiring and get the help.
I personally have seen many posts by the user Sdaji, and I don't happen to know him very well but I find him to be mostly informative and a respected member of the site.
I don't think there is any point in denoting the merit of what people have to say.

Even the girl who apparently is a friend of the bloke's missus didn't have very encouraging words to say about the establishment.

If Mrsclk does take over the business then i hope it does well, or if this Aaron guy can pick it up again and do a good job then people will be happy. The main thing is the health of the animals and NOT THE FEELINGS of the owner.


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## Chimera (Mar 30, 2007)

VERY true. A far smarter approach would be to sort out the in-house issues with the business and focus on what positive changes have occurred. A reputation could be rebuild from the statements made here by posting store photos addressing specific accusations. A picture is always worth 1000 words 

I do think a store deserves a second go but you are giving the impression at the moment that you will be biting off more then you can chew. When this occurs the display animals inevitably suffer. Please correct me if I am wrong


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## Mystery (Mar 30, 2007)

mrsclk said:


> also Sadji,
> 
> I have a butterfly for sale, interested.lolololololol lololololol



It might be a good idea to stick with the butterflies - I think you may have bitten off more than you can chew, in more ways than one.


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## junglepython2 (Mar 30, 2007)

A lot of people including myself would be happy to see that store shut for good. Why should people volunteer to keep something like that going?


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## josho (Mar 30, 2007)

why would you even bother to try and re open a shop that has such a bad rep??? wouldent you be better off starting a shop from scratch and starting it off fresh? i dont understand someone who has a couple of business would even bother spending that kind of money and time into something that is more or less a sunkin ship!!!!!
iv never heard of anyone saying anything nice about the joint...... i hope all works well but with the prices i remember seeing there it would soon be the same thing happening and reptiles will sit there for years and slowly lose condition.. JMO


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## shamous1 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Posts*



Tsidasa said:


> I can't bear to read this thread beyond this point. I've noticed the users that are posting the likes of the above are all new users with very few posts which may or may not be a coincidence.)
> 
> 
> 
> Posts are by no way a means of telling whether or not someone is knowledgable when it comes to herps. A one post person may know a load more than someone with 500 posts. It is silly to rate someone on their posts.


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## shamous1 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Having a stab*



mrsclk said:


> Sadji,
> 
> I thinkl that you care, sure, but why don't you answer the, will you come lend a hand question ever. Is it too hard for you to answer, or you just like talking the talk? I am not having a stab at you, but it gets me upset that people which own a few animals think it is an easy task to run 200+. I dont have anywhere neer that amount at the moment, and I know if i was to look after that amount by myself, I am sure I wouldn't have time to scratch my a#%. it is for this reason, i say to you, a dead animal is likely to pop up here or there. QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Mar 30, 2007)

Defamation.


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## Tsidasa (Mar 30, 2007)

shamous1 said:


> Tsidasa said:
> 
> 
> > I can't bear to read this thread beyond this point. I've noticed the users that are posting the likes of the above are all new users with very few posts which may or may not be a coincidence.)
> ...


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## mrsclk (Mar 30, 2007)

isnt it funny that most people talking about this shop dont even live in melbourne. how many times have you Mystery been to this shop, and Sdaji, or John Deutescher, I think you realy are a piece of work. i wont be happy until i see the photos, and you can prove they are in that establishment. 

Gotta luv the magazine. I do read it turniop, parsnip, what ever.


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## josho (Mar 30, 2007)

mrsclk said:


> isnt it funny that most people talking about this shop dont even live in melbourne. how many times have you Mystery been to this shop, and Sdaji, or John Deutescher, I think you realy are a piece of work. i wont be happy until i see the photos, and you can prove they are in that establishment.
> 
> Gotta luv the magazine. I do read it turniop, parsnip, what ever.



doesent matter the state there in mate!!!! the place is know all over AUS for the wrong reasons none of them good.... people travel from every state to go to roy pails if you think that all the people who come to the shop will be from melb think again......... jsut remember this site will bring that shop alot of customers so try and watch what you say and Sadji is from melb


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## mcloughlin2 (Mar 30, 2007)

Guys just a quick word, how many of you have worked in a Fishshop/petshop? I'm a good friend of a particular fishshop owner and help out from time to time. And i can say that even with the best of care Including large waterchanges every week, water testing, regular feeding and all round good care you still loose fish. Now I'm not saying that there is any excuse for having dead reptiles in your shop, but it is not as easy as you think! When you have 200 reptiles. You have about over 190 or more animals to care for then you would a basic herp collection. Thats means if you have about 20x the chance of something getting sick or dieing. 

Now mrsclk, if your going to buy the shop, stop posting on here. Let everyone stew on what they want to. Rebuild the shop and stock if with all your basic reptiles and your few rarer ones. Hire experianced reptile keepers (Preferable ones that have breed their pets.). Make sure you have a person who is experianced with venomous snakes, another for non venomous, another for your lizards and another for your turtles/frogs.
Once the shop is ready to be opened then post on here. But posting before it is opened is only going to cause critisism.

Just my 2 cents,

Sam


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## mcloughlin2 (Mar 30, 2007)

I should also add, if you think the shop needs something done, volunteer and help out. Don't sit behind a computor and complain about it, do something.


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## Sdaji (Mar 30, 2007)

mcloughlin2 said:


> I should also add, if you think the shop needs something done, volunteer and help out. Don't sit behind a computor and complain about it, do something.



I'm starting up a large business for the sake of making myself very wealthy. In order to cut costs and increase my profits I am going to cut corners which will result in the death and morbidity of many animals. I hope that rather than criticise me, people will volunteer their time and expertise, to lessen the horror. Thank you.


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## dellywatts (Mar 30, 2007)

Just on a different note. I was talking to the girl who works at the aquarium down the road from the melbourne reptile warehouse and she was saying that aaron won't be re-opening and that he has gotten himself in some trouble, whatever that means! 
I asked her what is going to happen to all of the reptiles and she said that they are being sold off this weekend. I asked her where and she said where the shop used to be. 
????


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## horsenz (Mar 30, 2007)

mcloughlin2 said:


> Guys just a quick word, how many of you have worked in a Fishshop/petshop? I'm a good friend of a particular fishshop owner and help out from time to time. And i can say that even with the best of care Including large waterchanges every week, water testing, regular feeding and all round good care you still loose fish. Now I'm not saying that there is any excuse for having dead reptiles in your shop, but it is not as easy as you think! When you have 200 reptiles. You have about over 190 or more animals to care for then you would a basic herp collection. Thats means if you have about 20x the chance of something getting sick or dieing.
> 
> Now mrsclk, if your going to buy the shop, stop posting on here. Let everyone stew on what they want to. Rebuild the shop and stock if with all your basic reptiles and your few rarer ones. Hire experianced reptile keepers (Preferable ones that have breed their pets.). Make sure you have a person who is experianced with venomous snakes, another for non venomous, another for your lizards and another for your turtles/frogs.
> Once the shop is ready to be opened then post on here. But posting before it is opened is only going to cause critisism.
> ...


dont think fish are a reptile and as for a pet shop selling venomous snakes cant see that happening.as for mrsclk looks like he just wants to make money and get everyone to give there time up for free


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## JEMMI (Mar 30, 2007)

*mrsclk*

i thought mrsclk was a gal.
I never had a problem with Aaron or MRW
Each time I walked through the cages looked spotless and the animals seemed happy and content.
Aaron was fine to deal with and I enjoyed looking at the reptiles.
I hope it re-opens as it is my local.


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## moosenoose (Mar 31, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> I'm starting up a large business for the sake of making myself very wealthy. In order to cut costs and increase my profits I am going to cut corners which will result in the death and morbidity of many animals. I hope that rather than criticise me, people will volunteer their time and expertise, to lessen the horror. Thank you.



It's about right Sdaji, why do these people stick up for such places and bring out the violins??? If you can't look after these sorts of animals with a 100% certainty..don't do it!! If you have to rely on cheap labor to maintain these sorts of shops, then you're going to get inadequate care for your stock..again, don't do it! 

Melbourne Reptile Warehouse started off well enough, then they just seemed to spiral out of control and the standards dropped rapidly?? Why?? who honestly knows? But all I can tell you is that by the end they really needed to be shut down. I'm not making this up, it was a disgrace!

Should the original owner return and clean the place up, and get people in there who know what they are doing (or better still, actually care!) then I'd gladly recommend it to others. But at the level it was towards the end, I'd be deceitful in recommending them.


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## shamous1 (Mar 31, 2007)

*Use of peoples names*



mrsclk said:


> isnt it funny that most people talking about this shop dont even live in melbourne. how many times have you Mystery been to this shop, and Sdaji, or John Deutescher, I think you realy are a piece of work. i wont be happy until i see the photos, and you can prove they are in that establishment.
> 
> Gotta luv the magazine. I do read it turniop, parsnip, what ever.



People have names user name or log on names for a reason! You lost me when you let loose with people's full names. Not everyone wants their full names spread in a forum.


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## shamous1 (Mar 31, 2007)

*Great 2 cents worth*



mcloughlin2 said:


> Guys just a quick word, how many of you have worked in a Fishshop/petshop? I'm a good friend of a particular fishshop owner and help out from time to time. And i can say that even with the best of care Including large waterchanges every week, water testing, regular feeding and all round good care you still loose fish. Now I'm not saying that there is any excuse for having dead reptiles in your shop, but it is not as easy as you think! When you have 200 reptiles. You have about over 190 or more animals to care for then you would a basic herp collection. Thats means if you have about 20x the chance of something getting sick or dieing.
> 
> Now mrsclk, if your going to buy the shop, stop posting on here. Let everyone stew on what they want to. Rebuild the shop and stock if with all your basic reptiles and your few rarer ones. Hire experianced reptile keepers (Preferable ones that have breed their pets.). Make sure you have a person who is experianced with venomous snakes, another for non venomous, another for your lizards and another for your turtles/frogs.
> Once the shop is ready to be opened then post on here. But posting before it is opened is only going to cause critisism.
> ...



Like I said, "A great 2 cents worth".


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## shamous1 (Mar 31, 2007)

*Volunteer*



mcloughlin2 said:


> I should also add, if you think the shop needs something done, volunteer and help out. Don't sit behind a computor and complain about it, do something.



Does that mean you are going to Volunteer?


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## shamous1 (Mar 31, 2007)

WOODIES FOR SALE said:


> I hope it re-opens as it is my local.



My local is the Braybrook Hotel.:lol:


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## mcloughlin2 (Mar 31, 2007)

................


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## raptor (Apr 12, 2007)

Originally Posted by mrsclk:
"I am not having a stab at you, but it gets me upset that people which own a few animals think it is an easy task to run 200+."
That's a true statement. My wife & I have 180, & that's a private collection, NOT a business. In fact it takes up pretty much all the spare time we have outside of running our own business. Yes, we have deaths, but not from neglect, nor are they left in their enclosures on display. (And yes, we've seen it for ourselves) I have to be fair here, not all were from neglect: in at least one case, Aaron was sold a pair that had been sick for years. I was originally offered the animals in question. As for exotics, how about the alligator snapping turtle? I was shown the pics, & was told all about the raid by Aaron himself.

Originally Posted by Sdaji: 
"That many of the animals in that shop were poached could only have been missed by a very stupid monkey which was born without eyes and even then it would have to have been severely drugged."

Maybe that's why it took DSE so long to actually close MRW down! LOL And they did, BTW. Officially, as of last night, MRW was closed down (with licence revocation) by DSE. I dont know the official reason, & I'm NOT saying how I know THAT much, but there you have it. I suppose I'll be branded a liar by some, but those that know me know otherwise. I work in an industry where I come in contact with all kinds of people


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## bredli84 (Apr 12, 2007)

are u saying that the DSE is the equivalent of a very stupid, severely drugged blind monkey?


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## shamous1 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Agree*

I believe the word of a Scotsman.


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## ldheav (Apr 12, 2007)

I heard that place got busted selling undersize turtles


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## ldheav (Apr 12, 2007)

Dont hold it to me tho


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## kabuto (Apr 12, 2007)

As far as i know and this is from another reptile shop,that they were closed down as was quoted before by a" third party".That place needed closing down.Iwent there early last year last year and i posted in a previuos thread how decusted i was with the conditions .One particular enclosure had two loverly bredli ,at the bottom of the cage what i first thought to be giant size kitty litter was in fact the bredlis feaces lining the the bottom.


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## ldheav (Apr 13, 2007)

Yeh like i said ive heard from ppl that they got busted by the DSE selling undersize turtles


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## expansa1 (Apr 13, 2007)

Ok everyone is off track and although Aaron was considered a friend of mine, I think I should reveal what really happened to stop the speculation and accusations!

Aaron told me what actually happened! He wasn't ashamed to tell me and I felt it odd that he boasted about it. 
The DSE heard a rumour, possibly from a disgruntled employee, that they were selling exotic animals. One day, an out of uniform DSE official entered the shop and started talking to Aaron. He stayed for ages and convinced Aaron that he was cool and Aaron eventually took him out back to show him a 1ft plus Common Snapping Turtle from America (Chelydra serpentina) that they had for sale! He even offered it to the DSE official, and well, the rest is history! They have been slapped with a huge fine and have probably had their commercial licence revoked. The fine was pretty hefty and this is what has hurt them. Aaron also appeared in court and I haven't spoken to him since!
When I visited I did the rounds of all reptile shops and thought his was the cleanest and had the best animals of all of them! But that was some time ago!


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## Inkslinger (Apr 13, 2007)

The closure of the shop had nothing do do with exotic, he was given time to comply with certain standards re cages lighting etc, he was unable to do this for what ever reason, he was then ordered to dispose of remaining animals in 14days, this he did and the premisis have been shut down.

I have known Aaron for many years and watched the decline of the shop from a premier shop to the awful state it was in, as to help it declined when offered he said it was under control.


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## ldheav (Apr 13, 2007)

expansa1 said:


> Ok everyone is off track and although Aaron was considered a friend of mine, I think I should reveal what really happened to stop the speculation and accusations!
> 
> Aaron told me what actually happened! He wasn't ashamed to tell me and I felt it odd that he boasted about it.
> The DSE heard a rumour, possibly from a disgruntled employee, that they were selling exotic animals. One day, an out of uniform DSE official entered the shop and started talking to Aaron. He stayed for ages and convinced Aaron that he was cool and Aaron eventually took him out back to show him a 1ft plus Common Snapping Turtle from America (Chelydra serpentina) that they had for sale! He even offered it to the DSE official, and well, the rest is history! They have been slapped with a huge fine and have probably had their commercial licence revoked. The fine was pretty hefty and this is what has hurt them. Aaron also appeared in court and I haven't spoken to him since!
> When I visited I did the rounds of all reptile shops and thought his was the cleanest and had the best animals of all of them! But that was some time ago!


 

How do you recon he got hold of a snapping turtle craig?


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## DaveInOz (Apr 13, 2007)

expansa1 said:


> Aaron told me what actually happened! He wasn't ashamed to tell me and I felt it odd that he boasted about it.


 
Me too !! I was / am not a friend*, I was just a customer, but he told me all about getting busted by trying to sell the undercover official the turtle. 
If he told me as a customer how many other 'strangers' did he tell .... weird:? .

May or may not have anything to do with the shop closing but it just struck me as strange that he told me.

*not that I wouldn't, be he seemed like a genuinely nice bloke


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## ldheav (Apr 13, 2007)

Yeh weird ay 
there are plenty of other ppl that do dodgy stuff with turtles going around melb 

no need to names names, Those people who are in the herp community know :lol:


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## Tsidasa (Apr 13, 2007)

DaveInOz said:


> Me too !! I was / am not a friend*, I was just a customer, but he told me all about getting busted by trying to sell the undercover official the turtle.
> If he told me as a customer how many other 'strangers' did he tell .... weird:? .
> 
> May or may not have anything to do with the shop closing but it just struck me as strange that he told me.
> ...


yes those genuinely nice reptile smugglers :lol: such a feel good fuzzy story


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## snakes_imperial (Apr 13, 2007)

why not name names? If you know somebody with exotics, they're putting our entire ecosystem, and your animals, at risk of exotic disease and infection. 
If Aaron recieves this stigma attatched to him due to "exotic dealings", why the hell cant they?

Its amazing how many people know "the real story" of what happened at the Melbourne Reptile Warehouse. But everybodys "real stories" are different. I think im just to avoid this thread from now on. 
Enjoy kids!!


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## ldheav (Apr 13, 2007)

neber said anything about exotics

just as far as tutles go, undersize and no permits required


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## expansa1 (Apr 13, 2007)

ldheav said:


> How do you recon he got hold of a snapping turtle craig?



There was a guy selling them in Melbourne who breeds them each year. He tries to pass them off as Alligator Snapping turtles and sells them for anything between $800 and $1200 each!


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## ldheav (Apr 13, 2007)

expansa1 said:


> There was a guy selling them in Melbourne who breeds them each year. He tries to pass them off as Alligator Snapping turtles and sells them for anything between $800 and $1200 each!


 


Wow thats crazy


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## shamous1 (Apr 13, 2007)

*Closed*

He was closed down for selling snapping turtles??????????

He ws closed down for poor conditions???????????

He was closed down for incorrect lighting etc etc etc etc ?



Can someone from the DSE please tell us what really happened so we can all get back on with our lives please, please. My popcorn went stale some time ago.

He was shut down!!!!!!!!! End of story.:lol:


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## MrBredli (Apr 13, 2007)

shamous1 said:


> He was shut down!!!!!!!!! End of story.:lol:


 
And deservedly so.


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## IsK67 (Apr 13, 2007)

I heard it was a front for a secret alien organisation.

Or was it the Judean People's Liberation Front?

Either way it's pretty much a dead horse that's being flogged here.

A lot of conjecture and innuendo. But that seems to be par for the course around here.

IsK


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