# Albino spotteds?



## lizardloco (May 25, 2011)

I have seen albino spotteds' and they are absolutely amaaaaaazing!
I want to know how much they go for, because I've seen hets for albino for around 2 grand.


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## discountreptile (May 25, 2011)

Probably three times the amount what hets are going for at the time


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## Tassie97 (May 25, 2011)

snake ranch pic if ppl havent seen it


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## lizardloco (May 25, 2011)

Amazing right!
It should be called a lucistic


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## Tassie97 (May 25, 2011)

lizardloco said:


> Amazing right!
> It should be called a lucistic


 
lucsisim is a completely different thing genetically


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## girdheinz (May 25, 2011)

lizardloco said:


> I have seen albino spotteds' and they are absolutely amaaaaaazing!
> I want to know how much they go for, because I've seen hets for albino for around 2 grand.



They don't go for anything yet as that is still the only one they have until this seasons eggs hatch.


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## lizardloco (May 25, 2011)

Snake Ranch sells them


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## zulu (May 25, 2011)

If i had a male albino mating with all my female spotteds ide be a picture *****.look at this bloke go,give me your money. :lol:


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## snakeluvver (May 25, 2011)

lizardloco said:


> Amazing right!
> It should be called a lucistic


 
As taste said, leucism is a different thing. Albino means a lack of dark pigment while leucistic means a lack of all pigment.


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## lizardloco (May 25, 2011)

Yes I know, but it looks luecistic because it has pink eyes and is a white albino...not yellow


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## saximus (May 25, 2011)

Lucies have blue or black eyes not pink


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## D3pro (May 25, 2011)

can't wait for this morph to be proven


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## dickyknee (May 25, 2011)

lizardloco said:


> Snake Ranch sells them


 
I have never seen SR selling albinos spotteds .... they sell hets though


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## lizardloco (May 25, 2011)

That's what I meant!


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## Troy06 (May 25, 2011)

i was told they will be going for $8,000each


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## snakeluvver (May 25, 2011)

How many albinos do they have? Because they sell them as 100% hets and you can only get a 100% het from two albino parents


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## saximus (May 25, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> How many albinos do they have? Because they sell them as 100% hets and you can only get a 100% het from two albino parents


 
Wrong.


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## snakeluvver (May 25, 2011)

saximus said:


> Wrong.


 
Please explain?


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## saximus (May 25, 2011)

100% hets come from pairing an albino with a normal


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## yommy (May 25, 2011)

saximus said:


> 100% hets come from pairing an albino with a normal


 
or an albino with a het too 50:50 there


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## snakeluvver (May 25, 2011)

saximus said:


> 100% hets come from pairing an albino with a normal


 
Doesnt that make it a 50% het


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## saximus (May 25, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> Doesnt that make it a 50% het


 No.



yommy said:


> or an albino with a het too 50:50 there


 Ah good point I forgot that one


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## killimike (May 25, 2011)

There's sooo much info out there, getting mendelian genetics wrong has to be a pet peeve of mine, maybe I should make a post in that other thread.... 

Yeah, I think it's different to be releasing these hets when apparently they only have the one albino male, or maybe have just hatched their first albinos from het parents. Either way, it's getting the gene out there fast.


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## saximus (May 25, 2011)

Which other thread Mike? There's already so many of them with that exact info. 
I am a little surprised they're releasing hets already even if they have one set of clutches that will theoretically have 25% albinos. Surely you'd hang on to everything and get top dollar for some albinos before you sell the hets and allow others to get in on it within a year


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## hypochondroac (May 25, 2011)

I love albinos.


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## killimike (May 25, 2011)

saximus said:


> Which other thread Mike? There's already so many of them with that exact info.
> I am a little surprised they're releasing hets already even if they have one set of clutches that will theoretically have 25% albinos. Surely you'd hang on to everything and get top dollar for some albinos before you sell the hets and allow others to get in on it within a year



I was actually thinking of the 'don't you hate it when' (or something like that) thread 

Yeah, I would have thought they would have hung onto the project until the first gen of albinos at least.... But perhaps it doesn't make too much of a difference in reality, or maybe they are just trying to benefit the hobby


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## yommy (May 25, 2011)

mendelian genetics, a picture tell a 1000 words. 
Here ya go for a visual reference


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## killimike (May 25, 2011)

That is a cool chart... but it doesn't show how the het albinos glow green in the dark.


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## saximus (May 25, 2011)

killimike said:


> That is a cool chart... but it doesn't show how the het albinos glow green in the dark.


 So THAT'S how you tell. 

Nice chart Yommy


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## Ships (May 25, 2011)

I think snake ranch are still 2 seasons of releasing any albino's was speaking to them a couple of weeks ago


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## -Katana- (May 26, 2011)

Have they managed to find out if their piebald spotteds breed true yet?


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## marcmarc (May 26, 2011)

yommy said:


> mendelian genetics, a picture tell a 1000 words.
> Here ya go for a visual reference


 
Where can that chart be bought/copied from? Sums it all up in a way I can even comprehend, very simply


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## PythonLegs (May 26, 2011)

Any reason the albinos are still so rarely seen? Considering how easy it is to breed spotteds I would have expected more around by now..


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## snakebag (May 26, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Have they managed to find out if their piebald spotteds breed true yet?


 
They were owned by another keeper before snake ranch that never produced pied from them and snakeranch paired offspring back to a parent last season and no piebalds were produced, but may be chinese whispers. Girdz?


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## girdheinz (May 26, 2011)

Regarding the pieds, John said himself they did not prove out to be simple recessive this last season but it was a small number of eggs, so he will continue to try.



Ships said:


> I think snake ranch are still 2 seasons of releasing any albino's was speaking to them a couple of weeks ago


 
This is what i was told by John. This will be there first year producing full albino's so they won't be in a rush to move them out.


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## saximus (May 26, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> Any reason the albinos are still so rarely seen? Considering how easy it is to breed spotteds I would have expected more around by now..


If you believe the stories they have only had the albino spotted long enough to have bred from it once or twice. It's not that they're hard to breed they just haven't had time


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## yommy (May 26, 2011)

marcmarc said:


> Where can that chart be bought/copied from? Sums it all up in a way I can even comprehend, very simply


 
Reptiles Australia Magazine Vol 3 Issue 4. Albino Special.
pg 21.


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## orientalis (May 27, 2011)

snakebag said:


> They were owned by another keeper before snake ranch that never produced pied from them and snakeranch paired offspring back to a parent last season and no piebalds were produced, but may be chinese whispers. Girdz?


 
It doesn't work that simply.....especially not F1's.
It is also the fact that so far, not all piebaldism in reptiles is "simple recessive"......
Time will prove the correct mode of inheritance, given they survive and reproduce.
If it was simple recessive, you would see the occurence from breeding F1 siblings together and hatching out F2's.....
This takes time


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## lizardloco (May 27, 2011)

Does that sheet of genetics count for any genetics or just albino?


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## saximus (May 27, 2011)

Any Mendelian genetics


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## snakebag (May 27, 2011)

If it were simple recessive it would have proved out when the offspring was paired back to the pied parent 50% roughly should have been piebald. Will be interesting to see the results if it proves out.


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## Gecko :) (May 27, 2011)

I was originally keen to get a pair of hets, until I heard on the grapevine that they actually have Childreni in the mix,. anyone else heard anything about this?


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## CodeRed (May 27, 2011)

Gecko :) said:


> I was originally keen to get a pair of hets, until I heard on the grapevine that they actually have Childreni in the mix,. anyone else heard anything about this?



you have to wade through a lot of BS before getting to the truth on this one

Does it matter anyway? They'll be crossed with every possible antaresia morph and variety before too long


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## Red-Ink (May 27, 2011)

CodeRed said:


> you have to wade through a lot of BS before getting to the truth on this one
> 
> Does it matter anyway? They'll be crossed with every possible antaresia morph and variety before too long


 
It does if you don't want any _Childreni_ or _Stinsoni_ with your _Maculosa....._


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## Gecko :) (May 27, 2011)

well yea to me it matters,. if they have Childreni in the mix then why not say so?
When I contacted Snake Ranch I received a rather vague reply from a lady there.
Either way they are Beautiful animals.


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## saximus (May 27, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> It does if you don't want any _Childreni_ or _Stinsoni_ with your _Maculosa....._


 Haha for some reason that made me think of the phrase: "do you want fries with that?" 

I can sort of understand the desire to have "pure" animals but I think CodeRed's has a point here especially since an albino looks so different to a regular animal anyway. I think most people would have a very difficult time discerning the difference between Antaresia species if they didn't have their "natural" colouring


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## dickyknee (May 27, 2011)

I am not sure what's in the mix , but I agree with Code sooner or later they will be mixed with all sorts of things .


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## beeman (May 27, 2011)

Gecko :) said:


> well yea to me it matters,. if they have Childreni in the mix then why not say so?
> When I contacted Snake Ranch I received a rather vague reply from a lady there.
> Either way they are Beautiful animals.



You will get the same response if you quize them on their WB'S


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## Gecko :) (May 27, 2011)

well everyone seems to be very accepting to crosses these days, but some of us dont care to keep them,. I am not denying there are some stunning crosses about these days,. but for those that do want to keep their animals pure it would be nice to know if they are crossed.
If infact they do have Childreni in the mix & have not made that clear, then that is just sneaky imo.


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## CodeRed (May 27, 2011)

saximus said:


> Haha for some reason that made me think of the phrase: "do you want fries with that?"
> 
> I can sort of understand the desire to have "pure" animals but I think CodeRed's has a point here especially since an albino looks so different to a regular animal anyway. I think most people would have a very difficult time discerning the difference between Antaresia species if they didn't have their "natural" colouring



I think the point is that we'll never know the truth. There was a lot of smoke and mirrors when these animals were first produced and lots of claims as to whos lines they came from, what happened to the parents etc etc. Only those directly involved in the initial breeding will ever know the truth. The rest of us will have to rely on what we are told 3rd, 4th and 5th hand. Bit like the X-files, the truth is out there ......


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## saximus (May 27, 2011)

Not saying it isn't true but what would be the point of crossing them? Would it be that they just threw the male across every Ant female they had?


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## FAY (May 27, 2011)

saximus said:


> Not saying it isn't true but what would be the point of crossing them? Would it be that they just threw the male across every Ant female they had?



That is exactly what is going to happen.They already are doing that now with albino darwins.


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## benjamind2010 (May 27, 2011)

I bet dollars to chocolate freckles I'll be able to tell the difference between an albino childreni, and blonde mac, normal mac, and platinum macs very easily.

The problem will be telling the difference between an albino childreni and an albino stimsoni. THAT will be HARD.

I'll drop a hint: Size does matter.


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## snakebag (May 27, 2011)

The photos of the albino that snake ranch has looks very plain. Breeding out to say a wheatbelt should put some colour into the morph which i for one would love to see.


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## benjamind2010 (May 28, 2011)

A true albino wheatbelt (not an outcrossed albino mac, that is) would really look the shiz, hey?
I can say that I would love to see some albino stimsons, especially albinos coming from lines that have deep red colouring - which the wheatbelt is one.


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## pythons73 (May 28, 2011)

Just give it time and "ALL" the Anteresias will be come in Albino...


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## benjamind2010 (May 28, 2011)

Well, if that breeder who has that leucistic mac starts breeding it (I think he already has) we'll get basically solid white snakes so at that point, apart from having field experts looking at the snake and doing extensive scale counts, you won't be able to tell any of the antaresias apart except for maybe sizes providing a possible clue.

We have not just albinos, but also leucistics to deal with. Throw the leucistic into the mix and there'll be some problems knowing what antaresia you will actually have. Albinos remove some of the pigment which allows one to tell the difference at least to some extent (except for maybe childrens vs stimsons), whereas leucistics remove ALL of the pigment so therefore removing any and all clues about what it is, so at that stage it'll just come down to scale counts.


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## eipper (May 28, 2011)

Any one care to elaborate without colouration/pattern how each of the "four" Antaresia can be split.....


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## benjamind2010 (May 28, 2011)

Scale counts and head study I would presume.


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## eipper (May 28, 2011)

Thats just it....there is overlap among all of the "species" except for ventral counts of perthensis and stimsoni.... are they really species or geographical variation across a wide ranging species.....like carpets?


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## Ozzie Python (May 28, 2011)

the antaresia mix is muddled enough as it is. telling the difference between a mac, pygmy and childrens/stims is easy enough in most cases. childrens/stims can get confusing.

at the end of the day once they start popping up as albinos, regardless of truth, everyone is going to assume they are crossed with macs, it's just how the hobby works.

as far as im concerned, if it is albino whatever in the future, i would buy it if i had the cash, and happily label them as albino ants. i assume albino carpets will probably end up the same. the only difference may be be if they throw a particular obvious pattern or similar they may get a new fandangle name.

those who want locale specific animals will probably keep wild type looking animals. if i buy a wheatbelt or broome etc, i want it to look like a traditional wheatbelt. anything albino showing up will very likely not be classed as locale speciific, and very loosely species specific.

hope that make sense, i'll revisit in the morning- had a few brews


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## NickM (May 29, 2011)

eipper said:


> Thats just it....there is overlap among all of the "species" except for ventral counts of perthensis and stimsoni.... are they really species or geographical variation across a wide ranging species.....like carpets?


 
Carpets are three distinct species, the only debate is about the validity of the sub-species. And that debate has more to do with one believes in the very concept of a "sub-species". 

Nick


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## Jungle_Freak (May 29, 2011)

Originally Posted by *eipper* 

 
Thats just it....there is overlap among all of the "species" except for ventral counts of perthensis and stimsoni.... are they really species or geographical variation across a wide ranging species.....like carpets?




Nick M quote
Carpets are three distinct species, the only debate is about the validity of the sub-species. And that debate has more to do with one believes in the very concept of a "sub-species". End Quote .

Nick 


​Good point Nick .
But since it now appears that Carpet python colours and patterns area polygenic type inheritance ?
This would mean that their natural enviroment plays a role in selecting the best patterns/ colours for survival within each different habitat.

Another point many fail to realise is the min or max size variation? , difference ? , from different carpet python localities .
The amount of food in any one area will govern the populations overall min and max sizes.

Less food in a area means that min sizes are more common ?
ie As in thick rainforest for jungles where they have competion for prey from a bigger species ie Scrub pythons.
More food in a area means bigger sizes are more common .
Better stop now,, forgive my off topic post.
cheers Roger


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## dickyknee (May 29, 2011)

If you want locale specific / pure stuff look around and buy some ... 
If you want an exciting new morph and don't care what's in it buy these ...

Room for both in this hobby surely.


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## benjamind2010 (May 29, 2011)

dickyknee said:


> If you want locale specific / pure stuff look around and buy some ...
> If you want an exciting new morph and don't care what's in it buy these ...
> 
> Room for both in this hobby surely.



+1. I would certainly buy an albino antaresia if I liked the look of it and it didn't cost the same as a decent used car


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## -Katana- (May 29, 2011)

Look, I like the look of these albinos and I *was* genuinely excited about this and the piebald morph but with these questions being raised about their purity well it's put a huge dampener on that excitement.
I don't know if there is any basis for what's being said about these animals being crossbreds but I'd be reluctant to purchase one (if price it's self wasn't a factor) until there was strong assurances they weren't and possibly backed up with some sort of proof.

Sure people will buy them because they are a pretty snake even with the question marks over their parentage and like anything that is their choice to make.


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## NickM (May 29, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Originally Posted by *eipper*
> 
> 
> Thats just it....there is overlap among all of the "species" except for ventral counts of perthensis and stimsoni.... are they really species or geographical variation across a wide ranging species.....like carpets?
> ...


 
I would agree with all of that.

Prey availability play a large role in size, and local habitat certainly influences the appearance. The interplay between the scrub python and the carpets is also interesting, as there is only so much ecological space in a given environment. The same thing happens in Iron range with GTPs 

Nick


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## Mayo (May 29, 2011)

NickM said:


> I would agree with all of that.
> 
> Prey availability play a large role in size, and local habitat certainly influences the appearance. The interplay between the scrub python and the carpets is also interesting, as there is only so much ecological space in a given environment. The same thing happens in Iron range with GTPs
> 
> Nick



Size has more to do with the size of the prey item available rather than there numbers I think. If an area only has a large prey item available then the environment will force the animal to grow larger to consume it. Where as if a plentiful prey item is smaller there is no need to evolve to a larger size. Tiger snakes are a great example of this(White Chappel Island).


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## NickM (May 29, 2011)

St francis carpets are another, nothing much to eat bu muttonbird chick so no need to get very large.

The best example however is Garden island _i__mbricata_, there are only two main prey items on the island, mice and Tamar wallabies. The male _imbricata_ on the island stay ridiculously small, never outgrowing the mice as a prey item. The Garden island females get large and can take the wallabies. A perfect example of niche partitioning within the same species in the same restricted area.


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## beeman (May 29, 2011)

benjamind2010 said:


> +1. I would certainly buy an albino antaresia if I liked the look of it and it didn't cost the same as a decent used car



Well you maybe one of the have nots that will have to wait on the side lines for a couple of years!


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## eipper (May 29, 2011)

Nick,

Actually there are 4 or 5 subspecies (bredli, harrisoni(?), imbricata, spilota and variegata). metacalfei, mcdowelli and cheynei are junior synonyms of variegata.

While I agree there is both geographical and biological pressures that act as limiting pressures on size, pattern etc that does not on its own bring about speciation in the immediant instance. To use Tiger snakes for example they are all one species (with no subspecies apparently...) despite, insular isolation and biological pressures causing gigantism and dwarfism as well as other morphological differences. Yet are almost genetically identical.

Getting back Antaresia.....this is my whole point there is very little if any reliable morphological characters that sets one from the the other. Which becomes further confused in areas where all three "Species" almost overlap for instance around the gulf country of north Queensland. 

I have only a passing interest in Antaresia, so hence the question.

Cheers,
Scott Eipper


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## NickM (May 29, 2011)

_Bredli_ and _Imbricata_ are full species, not sub-species. _Bredli_ has always been a full species, which for some unexplanable reason a few Authors refused to accept. Both _Imbricata_ and _Bredli_ were found to be very divergent from the rest of the carpets after genetic analysis performed in 2005, and both were shown to be full species in that paper.

The remaining sub-species are a mixed bag, with some better supported than others. This notion that all are invalid largely stems from the belief of some researchers that the taxonomic rank of sub-species is not valid. The popularity of the phylogenetic species concept which does not accept the rank of sub-species is the primary reason for this. If you accept legitimacy of the taxonomic rank of subspecies then some of the_ spilota_ are perhaps valid, particularly _metcalfei_. With the exception of cheynei there were genetic differences detected between all the proposed sub-species, although these distinctions were relatively small. So the issue of the validity of the various subspecies is not as definitive as it has been portrayed lately.


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## reptileaddiction (May 29, 2011)

Aren't we getting way off topic here. Maybe you should start another topic to debate species and sub-species.


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