# Unlicensed Sellers



## MadBD (Sep 26, 2019)

So, I've seen someone selling Eastern Water Skinks as a skink who doesn't need a licence, however apparently they do. At least in my state (Victoria)
I've reported to authorities before, but I still see them coming out every now and again.

Am I making a mistake reading from the 2013 list? Has 2019 changed the standards, or am I somehow mistaken?

As someone who would like a skink, would it be safe to buy one? I am a liscenced handler.


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## nuttylizardguy (Sep 26, 2019)

Yep, eastern water skinks are on the list.

if the seller is not prepared to show their keepers' licence , the skink is very likely wild caught , walk away.

Eastern water skinks who are captive bred are very hard to find , which is a real shame as they are capable of becoming fabulous , uber tame , friendly and very easy to care for pets.


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## MadBD (Sep 26, 2019)

So there is no way to register an animal if you got it from an unlicensed seller or source? Be it a license lapse or just a fool with a critter. It irks me because I've reported people before but they just go back to selling as if nothing happened.


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## BredliFreak (Sep 27, 2019)

There are usually a lot of signs that a seller or animals might be dodgy. Unlicensed is a pretty obvious one unless the animal is exempt. Cheap animals that could be found in the seller's local area (most often water/bar sided skinks, white's/cunningham's skinks, jacky dragons, marbled/leseuer's geckos, Coppertailed/Robust striped skinks and Broad tailed geckos from the Sydney region - Many of these are available in captivity from better and more legal sources at higher prices) are also usually another sign (regardless of licensed status or not) of a wild caught animal. The main issue with WC animals barring ethics and legality is that they often carry alot of diseases. I've had friends buy licensed animals with dodgy origins and they often end up dying within the first month or so and may spread diseases or parasites to the rest of your collection.


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## nuttylizardguy (Sep 28, 2019)

MadBD said:


> So there is no way to register an animal if you got it from an unlicensed seller or source? Be it a license lapse or just a fool with a critter. It irks me because I've reported people before but they just go back to selling as if nothing happened.



In this situation , unless you want to risk
1) loosing the money you paid to buy it
2) having it confiscated

you are better off not reporting it ( 1 and 2 will happen to you most likely if the boofocrat has a bee in his or her bonnet ) as well as maybe the seller being prosecuted ( doubt it for one or two or a small group of reptiles illegally "acquired and sold" ) .
I'd just keep them "off the books" if you've bought them in good faith and no licence number was provided and you don't see proof it's "REAL" and didn't see their rego number or drivers' license and you REALLY want the animal.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Sep 28, 2019)

BredliFreak said:


> The main issue with WC animals barring ethics and legality is that they often carry alot of diseases. I've had friends buy licensed animals with dodgy origins and they often end up dying within the first month or so and may spread diseases or parasites to the rest of your collection.



This is true... about 6 years ago I acquired about a dozen "hard to get" Aussie tarantulas from a bloke who I wasn't aware at the time was actually just trekking across North QLD collecting and selling on wild caught specimens.. whilst not illegal (not then, could be now) it is frowned upon and within a few months of having them in my possession several had died on me, all thanks to a large tapeworms exiting the spider. The only tarantulas I still have alive today are all the ones I purchased from a reputable captive breeder in Brisbane. The last I heard a few years back, the bloke I'd acquired the T's from had caught the attention of the police and was assisting them with their investigations into his dealings.


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## -Adam- (Sep 28, 2019)

nuttylizardguy said:


> In this situation , unless you want to risk
> 1) loosing the money you paid to buy it
> 2) having it confiscated
> 
> ...



But what about the risk?

I don't know if inspections are common or not, but even if they're not - as @Flaviemys purvisi pointed out - if the seller was caught they may be quick to give up all their customers for a lighter penalty.

What really needs to be considered here is the possibility of a criminal conviction if the original poster is caught.

My concern about keeping a clean slate hasn't been the monetary penalty, but criminal conviction. Even if the punishment was as low as $50, if I want to get into other countries in future, or get a job in many different areas that single criminal conviction could stop a lot of opportunities that I otherwise may have had. And I could probably also forget about ever getting a wildlife permit/license again.

I have a friend who I know can't even go to the USA on holidays (who hold senior citizen cards now) because of a single silly thing they did when they were a teenager. We're talking nearly half a century ago.

That's not to mention the risk of losing the rest of collection (via losing their license), and not being able to get a wildlife license again if they were caught.

It may be a small and unlikely risk of getting caught - but it could have serious future consequences moving forward if they were.

Personally it wouldn't worry me which direction the Original Poster takes - provided they are aware of all the risks and makes an informed decision.


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## nuttylizardguy (Sep 28, 2019)

Adam
It's a truth of life that laws only stop HONEST people from breaking the law.

Make sure you keep your receipts and copies of the adverts and ALL communications with sellers ( just in case they end up being crooks ) this way you are covered and can prove you've done your best to follow the rules and purchased in good faith . If the collection is audited ( I guess that happens but know of no one who this has had this happen to) they can't enter your premises without a warrant from a court , no warrant , you can tell them NO and slam the door closed in their face and lock them out ).

Personally I think it's very unwise to tell everyone you keep reptiles , this is just inviting sticky fingers to visit and take your pets one day or night when you are not home.


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## Stompsy (Oct 1, 2019)

MadBD said:


> So there is no way to register an animal if you got it from an unlicensed seller or source? Be it a license lapse or just a fool with a critter. It irks me because I've reported people before but they just go back to selling as if nothing happened.



A friend of ours purchased a big male sand monitor a few months ago, mainly because he was interested in the enclosure it was housed in. He got it home and was waiting for the seller to send their license details, but alas, they never came.

Turns out they were unlicensed and had been feeding the poor lizard watermelon as a staple. A week or so ago the lizard had to be put down because it had so many issues from being fed the wrong diet. (saddest part being that he was still eating like a champ once my friend took him on)

My friend reported the sellers to DELWP (Victorian licensing body) and they have allowed him to keep the reptile and are pursuing the sellers. So, in short, there are cases where they will allow you to keep the animal. However, being that you know these sellers are unlicensed and providing false information from the get go, I wouldn't buy one. You can only plead innocence if you knew nothing about them being unlicensed in the first place or they could turn you in just the same.


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## Nero Egernia (Oct 1, 2019)

Stompsy said:


> Turns out they were unlicensed and had been feeding the poor lizard watermelon as a staple. A week or so ago the lizard had to be put down because it had so many issues from being fed the wrong diet. (saddest part being that he was still eating like a champ once my friend took him on)



Didn't even think you could convince a monitor to eat a watermelon, I wonder how did they accomplish that? Did they slaver it with egg yolk or something?


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## -Adam- (Oct 3, 2019)

nuttylizardguy said:


> Adam
> It's a truth of life that laws only stop HONEST people from breaking the law.



While I agree with what you're saying - I think we've progressed now to where we live in a day which is so over regulated that everyone breaks laws, either willingly or without realising it. ie: Did you know it's illegal for you to have both hands off the steering wheel in your car whilst stationary at a set of traffic lights whilst stopped to scratch yourself. And now that you know that - would you still choose to do this when you're at a red light if you had a distracting itch? 

From my personal observation (I admit not a big survey pool) what I've observed over my life is an increase that more people now try to obey most laws _they_ see as reasonable - and for other laws they consider the consequences for times they choose to break the law vs the penalty. (ie, many people will choose to intentionally speed and take the risk of a fine if they are overtaking a slower car and then see a car approaching further down the road. The idea of doing 10kph over the limit even though it is illegal is outweighed by the increased risk of an approaching vehicle).

Such over regulation has made a society where more people are beginning not to be completely law abiding but people are more choosing for themselves which laws they see as being reasonable to break and whether they are willing to wear the penalty if caught, even what a reasonable person would call an 'honest' person.

As such my post wasn't so much telling the OP what the law is or what to do- but moreso to make the OP fully aware of all the consequences of the potential action. Unlike simply being booked for choosing to do 10kph over the limit to get around a car safer when overtaking - the offense above isn't just a monetary and demerit point offense - it's a criminal act and as such even if the monetary amount is small - the repercussions for that action if caught are ongoing and may affect a lot more than the wallet.

My personal opinion is for the OP to stick to the law - but my opinion means jack really. The reasons behind it may carry a little more weight. I've discouraged a number of people from breaking the law when they were going to choose so when they realised that the penalties where much higher than they anticipated - and I assume they were grateful for it.


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