# Breeding Debate



## Wookie (Mar 6, 2011)

I see thread after thread where inexperienced keepers are asking about breeding requirements and are repeatedly told not to breed for the good of the market by more experienced breeders. Though this may be correct, it seems wrong to discourage new keepers from breeding, while the old hats continue to breed their own stock. I think if people are aware the difficulty they may go through trying to sell garden variety animals, they are more than welcome to breed their pets because I'm sure after losing money and time while stressing to sell offspring they won't want to breed again. This way they are still retaining the experience and joy of breeding. It seems very unfair to frag a keeper for breeding when it was the old hats who have done their part (along with new breeders) to flood the market each year. Please don't get me wrong, many inexperienced keepers post ridiculously retarded questions and definitely should not breed, though some are simply very keen for the experience. And I'm also not saying long time breeders are bad, they have contributed a lot to the hobby, developed and refined many traits or morphs and made snakes much cheaper for me to buy today . 

Everybody feel free to contribute. Pros/cons of breeding in the current market


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## saximus (Mar 6, 2011)

I agree entirely. I asked a similar question in one of these debate treads. Basically the old hat guys said they aren't against relative newbies having a go as long as they are aware of the possible (probable) difficulties. Unfortunately though most people don't seem to understand this and just assume they will breed with no issues and makes millions


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## Jason (Mar 6, 2011)

Pros: exciting, educational, interesting etc
Cons: time, money, time, frustration, time, failures, difficulties, time etc 

I think every keen, passionate keeper should have a go at breeding herps if the interest, time and dedication is there. It's very rewarding and you really do learn a lot about your animals. Those that say dont do it for the market imo are just trying to keep it to themselves! there are a lot of greedy 'experienced' breeders out there that love lining their pockets. 
It's great to hear some breeders claiming the market is saturated (which i do believe has slowed a fair bit) and that there is to many people breeding etc and yet they still try for a dozen clutches a season... hypocrites


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## licky (Mar 6, 2011)

Why do you think every time someone asks where to get "this or that" everybody says "buy from an experienced breeder". 
Alot of big breeders are fuming because their prized animals dont go for the same big dollars as they used to, everybody see's the money to be made then flood the "market". 
The big breeders are all greedy in my opinion. Once they sell there animals to newbs, they tell them different feeding routines to what they use e.g big breeders are power feeders, newbs are scared into "normal" feeding routines.
Big breeders love to add a title to a animal to show its better then the competition and then jack up the price.
Greed


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## Wally (Mar 6, 2011)

Perhaps more experienced breeders are aware of what goes into looking after multitudes of hatchies. I would suggest to any first time breeder to consider a reptile that produces small numbers of offspring to begin with.

The welfare of the reptiles must be considered above all else.


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## whyme (Mar 6, 2011)

licky said:


> Why do you think every time someone asks where to get "this or that" everybody says "buy from an experienced breeder".
> Alot of big breeders are fuming because their prized animals dont go for the same big dollars as they used to, everybody see's the money to be made then flood the "market".
> The big breeders are all greedy in my opinion. Once they sell there animals to newbs, they tell them different feeding routines to what they use e.g big breeders are power feeders, newbs are scared into "normal" feeding routines.
> Big breeders love to add a title to a animal to show its better then the competition and then jack up the price.
> Greed


First of all, what do you classify as a big breeder? I breed a few reps each year and they are quality animals. I feed large food items but do not power feed, I don't think, and I always tell the purchaser exactly what the animal has been fed, and when. I've also purchased off some REPUTABLE, not big breeders and have never had a problem. It's not about scaring "newbs" or jackin' up prices. Quality animals, from quality lines, deserve quality dollars. A newbie with a hatchie GTP pair is not going to breed 'em in the near future, if ever. I, personally am not worried about the "newbie situation", and totally encourage giving breeding a go if the conditions are right. You usually find they freak when they get a clutch and the hatchies go back to the breeder anyway


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## moosenoose (Mar 6, 2011)

Call me selfish, but I choose not to breed anything  Who cares what anyone else thinks? I know I don't!


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## Wookie (Mar 6, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> Perhaps more experienced breeders are aware of what goes into looking after multitudes of hatchies. I would suggest to any first time breeder to consider a reptile that produces small numbers of offspring to begin with.
> 
> The welfare of the reptiles must be considered above all else.


 
I agree 100%. And that has nothing to do with the market.



moosenoose said:


> Call me selfish, but I choose not to breed anything  Who cares what anyone else thinks? I know I don't!


 
How dare you moose!


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## reptilife (Mar 6, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> Call me selfish, but I choose not to breed anything  Who cares what anyone else thinks? I know I don't!



Agreed... all sounds like too much hard work!!!


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## Khagan (Mar 6, 2011)

I actually like the current market, while yeah i even lost out myself selling, it's great for the hobby itself to be a buyers market. I'm fine with morphs and certain species like GTPs being high end animals and demanding a price tag suiting, but i believe your average run of the mill entry level animal should be at an affordable price for everyone.


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## jham66 (Mar 6, 2011)

There is a slight benefit to the market when many "amateurs" want to start breeding. If I want one display snake I would only buy one snake; if I want to breed I need at least two snakes. If I really want to get started I will buy a breeding trio, maybe I will not want to put all my eggs in one basket so I will buy a breeding trio in two separate species.......


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## Ramsayi (Mar 6, 2011)

Hmmmmmmmm bag out the breeders.Where do you think most of the info on breeding reptiles that you guys have access to came from in the first place?


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## solar 17 (Mar 6, 2011)

licky said:


> Why do you think every time someone asks where to get "this or that" everybody says "buy from an experienced breeder".
> Alot of big breeders are fuming because their prized animals dont go for the same big dollars as they used to, everybody see's the money to be made then flood the "market".
> The big breeders are all greedy in my opinion. Once they sell there animals to newbs, they tell them different feeding routines to what they use e.g big breeders are power feeders, newbs are scared into "normal" feeding routines.
> Big breeders love to add a title to a animal to show its better then the competition and then jack up the price.
> Greed


Personally l feel this post is pretty baseless short on facts and figures on which you could show some evidence particularly in my case since you said "all" long term big breeders....solar 17 [Baden]


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## saximus (Mar 6, 2011)

This isn't about bagging out breeders. It is about certain breeders who are against new people getting into it just because they apparently don't want extra "competition". So they say the market is flooded and discourage people while still breeding numerous clutches a year themselves. I get a lot of my info from Mike Swan's book which I noticed has contributions from a number of members on here. For that I am very thankful. I am not thankful for those who aren't interested in offering help but instead criticise anyone wanting to try it for themselves.


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## Parko (Mar 6, 2011)

The problem is terms like ''reputable breeders'', what is a reputable breeder? To me somebody who breeds healthy animals and is fair in their dealings and generous in their after sales advice is reputable. To me somebody who breeds and sells snakes that have health and neuro issues is irreputable regardless of how many snakes they have churned out or how pretty they are. These are the people who should be discouraged from ''flooding'' the market.


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## AUSHERP (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm sick of the same old questions that these said newbs are asking "what snake should i breed to make money" "which snake is the most valuable" "what is easy to breed with good return" Most of todays big breeders got there through a passion for reptiles not a hunger for money. These sort of questions really rub me the wrong way, breeding is not being discouraged, ignorant money hungry newbs with no desire to make contribution beyond stupid questions are being discouraged. This forum is for reptile lovers/keepers and we are a community. These newcomers put themselves on the outter immediately by asking these sort of question, their intentions are clear and unliked by most, if you want to get rich quick, go do a crappy seminar and invest in online sales schemes.

AUSHERP


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

saximus said:


> This isn't about bagging out breeders. It is about certain breeders who are against new people getting into it just because they apparently don't want extra "competition". So they say the market is flooded and discourage people while still breeding numerous clutches a year themselves. I get a lot of my info from Mike Swan's book which I noticed has contributions from a number of members on here. For that I am very thankful. I am not thankful for those who aren't interested in offering help but instead criticise anyone wanting to try it for themselves.



I don't think i've seen the hypocrasy you talk about, who are these certain breeders?

What i have seen in the past is alot of 'big breeders' making it clear that there is no money in it and more recently pointing out that backyard breeders will have trouble moving on large numbers of average looking animals. 

My own view on newbs breeding is that it seems most think that it makes them an experienced keeper. I don't think it does.


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## MonitorMayhem (Mar 7, 2011)

interesting


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## saximus (Mar 7, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I don't think i've seen the hypocrasy you talk about, who are these certain breeders?
> 
> What i have seen in the past is alot of 'big breeders' making it clear that there is no money in it and more recently pointing out that backyard breeders will have trouble moving on large numbers of average looking animals.
> 
> My own view on newbs breeding is that it seems most think that it makes them an experienced keeper. I don't think it does.



Hmmm maybe I've just misinterpreted some of the posts I've seen then. I guess I just get a generally negative feeling from a lot of threads about new breeders. Maybe that is just because most of them start with "How do I breed snakes? I want to make millions" though. 
I was actually going to quote you on that last point Gordo. I remembered you writing something similar but couldn't find where you wrote it. I agree breeding doesn't make you an instant expert but I do think it's a very big step in the learning process, if you're ready for it.


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## hugsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Parko said:


> The problem is terms like ''reputable breeders'', what is a reputable breeder? To me somebody who breeds healthy animals and is fair in their dealings and generous in their after sales advice is reputable.


 
I agree, I don't think being reputable has anything to do with the volume of animals your breed. Experience also comes in many forms in the reptile hobby, experienced in getting stuborn hatchies to feed, getting olives etc to breed, probing/popping hatcies, getting enclosure setups right, recognising when your animals aren't acting right, when there is a need for veterinary care, etc etc etc. Breeding a pair of macs in your first year is no where near being experienced. I encourage anyone that wants to breed to do so, as long as it is for the right reasons. ie. not for how much you can make or lose, but for the joys of breeding such wonderful creatures.

I would always recomend someone to buy from experienced and reputable breeders if it is a species I don't have at the time or don't breed. At least then I know that if the person buys an animal from them they will get the correct advice if needed and also gives me some credability for recommending someone who also has a passion for what they do, and not just in it for the "thanks, give me my money and piiss off" attidute that is well alive in this hobby. Unfortunately there are too many people in it for the get rich quick scheme and that drive has now pushed them to risk lots by smuggling animals into the country. Just so they get the jump on the market with the next big thing, but as we can see from Jags, they can crash terribly fast when the realities of their issues are realised and also the fact one male adult can impregnate several females in their first year of breeding and half of those clutches will be Jags. Flood the market and kill the price, which is not necassarily a bad thing.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Breeding is only one facet of this hobby, it doesn't make anyone an instant expert or "experienced" keeper. It's such pity that a lot of newbies are heading straight for the breding, thinking it's the pinnacle of success, instead of going out bush, observing and learning about wild reptiles before deciding on what species to keep. To me, it's a reversed process of advancement.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Mar 7, 2011)

It's a good experience, it's only one part of being experienced (as waterrat said).
I hope to breed this year, I know the risk of not being able to move animals on, I know that I will probably lose money and I know that it take a lot of time.
I think more experienced breeders are just asking that you know that and take your animals safety and health as a priority rather than just trying to gain experience that or money. 
No one is telling you not to breed. They want you to understand the risk and be in breeding for the right reasons. 

Like waterrat said if you want to be more experienced in other facets go herping, go keep some animals that are a bit different or try making a better habitat for your animals.

Reputable is something that's a bit subjective to everyone. To me someone that will have great follow up and tries to look after the animal after it's left the breeder itself. Communication is great to me. Some people don't care for it.


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## Wookie (Mar 7, 2011)

AUSHERP said:


> I'm sick of the same old questions that these said newbs are asking "what snake should i breed to make money" "which snake is the most valuable" "what is easy to breed with good return" Most of todays big breeders got there through a passion for reptiles not a hunger for money. These sort of questions really rub me the wrong way, breeding is not being discouraged, ignorant money hungry newbs with no desire to make contribution beyond stupid questions are being discouraged. This forum is for reptile lovers/keepers and we are a community. These newcomers put themselves on the outter immediately by asking these sort of question, their intentions are clear and unliked by most, if you want to get rich quick, go do a crappy seminar and invest in online sales schemes.
> 
> AUSHERP


 
I agree with that ausherp. They were some of the retarded questions I was referring to in my OP. Questions like that and another cracker "my (insert python) is 18 months old, will I be able to breed it this season" 



Waterrat said:


> Breeding is only one facet of this hobby, it doesn't make anyone an instant expert or "experienced" keeper. It's such pity that a lot of newbies are heading straight for the breding, thinking it's the pinnacle of success, instead of going out bush, observing and learning about wild reptiles before deciding on what species to keep. To me, it's a reversed process of advancement.


 
I agree waterrat! Too many people are STARTING on adult pythons. Who does that!? Half the fun is raising it, taming it, learning about it and watching the sucker grow. Breeding is the reward waiting at the end, if you have the time for it. The way things are now, hatchies/yearlings are easily accessible and that is what keepers should start on. 

Does anybody think that the problem may be caused by people selling nearly everything in pairs?


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## hugsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Breeding is only one facet of this hobby, it doesn't make anyone an instant expert or "experienced" keeper. It's such pity that a lot of newbies are heading straight for the breding, thinking it's the pinnacle of success, instead of going out bush, observing and learning about wild reptiles before deciding on what species to keep. To me, it's a reversed process of advancement.


 
I don't disagree, but unfortunately not everyone is in a postion go 'out bush'. I have done so in the past and absolutely love it, but I have also had access to a decent 4wd, had the time and the money to be able to afford a decent trip. You must take into consideration that a lot of these people may not even be old enough to hold a licence, or not be in the postion to go as they don't have a 4wd or their parents are not interested etc etc. There are lots of reasons why it may be extremely difficult or nye on impssible for some to go. Certainly a nights herping locally is OK and may be great if you live in Cairns or tropical FNQ. It is certainly something I would recommend to anyone for the experience if you get the opportunity to go. But it so much easier these days to just buy a pair of animals, read a book and get some info off the net. There is no real need to go bush to do all that if it is not something you are into. ie lots of travelling, billions of flies and tons of dust...lol


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## lgotje (Mar 7, 2011)

Khagan said:


> I actually like the current market, while yeah i even lost out myself selling, it's great for the hobby itself to be a buyers market. I'm fine with morphs and certain species like GTPs being high end animals and demanding a price tag suiting, but i believe your average run of the mill entry level animal should be at an affordable price for everyone.



agreed!


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## hugsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Does anybody think that the problem may be caused by people selling nearly everything in pairs?


 
No. I generally don't sell anything in pairs unless a buyer asks for a pair or I have limited females in which case I will sell as pairs only for those wanting to breed.


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## saximus (Mar 7, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Does anybody think that the problem may be caused by people selling nearly everything in pairs?


 To me that is more a symptom than a cause though. When you are finding it hard to move your stock having a package deal like "$130 each or $200 a pair" may entice people to get that one more that they weren't originally planning on getting

I'd love to go out herping and see the animals in their natural environment. I have even asked on here for people to take me out because I'd be clueless on my own but just never got replies. Maybe I'll just go up the mountains before it gets too cold and wander around with a torch


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## Wookie (Mar 7, 2011)

saximus said:


> To me that is more a symptom than a cause though. When you are finding it hard to move your stock having a package deal like "$130 each or $200 a pair" may entice people to get that one more that they weren't originally planning on getting


 
True, I didn't think of that


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

saximus said:


> To me that is more a symptom than a cause though. When you are finding it hard to move your stock having a package deal like "$130 each or $200 a pair" may entice people to get that one more that they weren't originally planning on getting
> 
> *I'd love to go out herping and see the animals in their natural environment. I have even asked on here for people to take me out because I'd be clueless on my own but just never got replies. Maybe I'll just go up the mountains before it gets too cold and wander around with a torch*



That is all it takes. Get out as often as you can or feel like and just give it a go. Sometimes you get sod all (like me for the past week despite having 'perfect' conditions) and other times you hit pay dirt and find something wicked.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

hugsta said:


> I don't disagree, but unfortunately not everyone is in a postion go 'out bush'. I have done so in the past and absolutely love it, but I have also had access to a decent 4wd, had the time and the money to be able to afford a decent trip. You must take into consideration that a lot of these people may not even be old enough to hold a licence, or not be in the postion to go as they don't have a 4wd or their parents are not interested etc etc. There are lots of reasons why it may be extremely difficult or nye on impssible for some to go. Certainly a nights herping locally is OK and may be great if you live in Cairns or tropical FNQ. It is certainly something I would recommend to anyone for the experience if you get the opportunity to go. But it so much easier these days to just buy a pair of animals, read a book and get some info off the net. There is no real need to go bush to do all that if it is not something you are into. ie lots of travelling, billions of flies and tons of dust...lol


 

I agree, I used to live in a big smoke myself. However, you don't need a 4WD, just need the time to get out of the city traffic. Your second last sentence says it all - have it easy; buy a snake, look up the internet ..... but where is the inspiration? I guess here on APS.


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## saximus (Mar 7, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> That is all it takes. Get out as often as you can or feel like and just give it a go. Sometimes you get sod all (like me for the past week despite having 'perfect' conditions) and other times you hit pay dirt and find something wicked.


 Ok cool thanks. I'll just have to remember not to touch the cuddly looking little short fat ones


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## hugsta (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I agree, I used to live in a big smoke myself. However, you don't need a 4WD, just need the time to get out of the city traffic. Your second last sentence says it all - have it easy; buy a snake, look up the internet ..... but where is the inspiration? I guess here on APS.


 
Lol, yes. I guess many years ago there was never the variety in captivity compared to nowadays and the best way to see herps was to go herping. Definately on my agenda for next year I hope. Unfortunately this years is to go cage diving with Great Whites in SA.  Another thing to tick off the bucket list.


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## fugawi (Mar 7, 2011)

Unfortunately what I see here is the same old argument you see with cats, dogs, horses, fish, birds etc, big name, big reputation, big money breeders selling high quality animals on one side and the small, starting off, backyard breeders on the other. If we only have the big names then the price would be through the roof and nobody could afford to buy them, keeping reptile keeping as a rich specialty hobby. On the other hand, flooding the market with low quality animals at cheap prices opens up the market to more people, expanding the hobby.
Dad wanting to get a new interesting pet for his kid, doesn't care if the Beardie is a lemon tangerine sunburst morph, he just wants a pet lizard for his kid to start with. There is a place for the upmarket, high quality, expensive breeding stock just as there is a need to keep the hobby cheap and accessible to everyone.


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Unfortunately what I see here is the same old argument you see with cats, dogs, horses, fish, birds etc, big name, big reputation, big money breeders selling high quality animals on one side and the small, starting off, backyard breeders on the other. If we only have the big names then the price would be through the roof and nobody could afford to buy them, keeping reptile keeping as a rich specialty hobby. On the other hand, flooding the market with low quality animals at cheap prices opens up the market to more people, expanding the hobby.
> Dad wanting to get a new interesting pet for his kid, doesn't care if the Beardie is a lemon tangerine sunburst morph, he just wants a pet lizard for his kid to start with. There is a place for the upmarket, high quality, expensive breeding stock just as there is a need to keep the hobby cheap and accessible to everyone.



Here is another problem. Why do you assume that it is the morphs that are high quality/?


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## fugawi (Mar 7, 2011)

Waruikazi, I am just making a point. High end breeders selling high end, high quality animals at high prices have their place but dad just wants a $20 lizard. If there are no $20 herps, dad will get a fish, cat or dog. On the other hand people will buy a $2500 Husky with great breeding and great pedigree. There are lots of people that will part with big money for high pedigree but dad still just wants a $20 lizard.


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Waruikazi, I am just making a point. High end breeders selling high end, high quality animals at high prices have their place but dad just wants a $20 lizard. If there are no $20 herps, dad will get a fish, cat or dog. On the other hand people will buy a $2500 Husky with great breeding and great pedigree. There are lots of people that will part with big money for high pedigree but dad still just wants a $20 lizard.



Alot, maybe even all, of the 'reputable' breeders i know still cater to the 'I just want a pet' market. The real market for the really expensive stuff is really quite small. I think you'll find that the majority of single reptile keepers find their animals in pet shops or from big breeders, not from backyard breeders.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Unfortunately what I see here is the same old argument you see with cats, dogs, horses, fish, birds etc, big name, big reputation, big money breeders selling high quality animals on one side and the small, starting off, backyard breeders on the other. If we only have the big names then the price would be through the roof and nobody could afford to buy them, keeping reptile keeping as a rich specialty hobby. On the other hand, flooding the market with low quality animals at cheap prices opens up the market to more people, expanding the hobby.
> Dad wanting to get a new interesting pet for his kid, doesn't care if the Beardie is a lemon tangerine sunburst morph, he just wants a pet lizard for his kid to start with. There is a place for the upmarket, high quality, expensive breeding stock just as there is a need to keep the hobby cheap and accessible to everyone.



There is so much in this post that needs correction... big money breeders? Who are they and where do they live? Some of those who breed large numbers of animals (I'm not one of them) are the most generous and realistic people I know - give heaps of animals away, and are very realistic about price. You put these people into a generalised basket that may be quite inappropriate.On the other hand, if those who have become 'big names' hadn't shared their copious knowledge, far fewer people would have the nous to breed their animals.

The notion of 'big breeders' discouraging others from breeding to protect their incomes is just a fabrication built on some sort of resentment. It's the 'tall poppy' syndrome modified to suit the herp world. You say 'flooding the market with low quality animals at cheap prices opens up the market...' well, flooding any market with what you call (and I don't understand this) low quality animals (or low quality products of any sort) will more rapidly damage any market than keeping quality high and outcomes predictable...

As one who has often counselled newcomers to the herp hobby not to breed their bredli (or whatever), and also as one who has copped a fair share of smarmy comments relating to this stance I take, I think you will find that, like me, those who suggest caution relate their advice more to the selection of species than a broad discouragement of breeding in general. It's just a problem that the species newcomers set out with are already cheap (read: already in good supply), easy to breed, and will be even moreso in 3-4 years time when they have a clutch to unload.

Maybe you think it's great that there are huge numbers of bredli and Coastals and maybe a few others, out there for next to nothing in terms of price, but these animals produce 25-40 eggs in a clutch, and it only takes a few clutches at those numbers to oversupply the market. These aren't things you can put in the spare room or out in the garage until you have a need for them. They cost the keeper from day 1, and continue to cost more as they grow. That's the cost to the keeper... then I like to consider the cost to the individual animals...

They are the ones who will suffer in the long run.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Unfortunately what I see here is the same old argument you see with cats, dogs, horses, fish, birds etc, big name, big reputation, big money breeders selling high quality animals on one side and the small, starting off, backyard breeders on the other. If we only have the big names then the price would be through the roof and nobody could afford to buy them, keeping reptile keeping as a rich specialty hobby.



Really? Who knocked the GTP prices down - the little guys or the big names (as you put it). You have a very skewed picture of the situation my friend.


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## licky (Mar 7, 2011)

Lots of BS in this thread. Half of the arguement here is about market strategy and how to push everything out the door faster, whether it is buying animals in pairs at "seemingly" lower prices, or proving that by paying big $$$ ensures you a better animal.
I guess everyone is sick of the old coastal carpet or classic bredli and now wants a hypo/hyper version, because it looks pretty, now just add a shedding&feeding history and you got yourself a better quality animal, and now everyone elses animals suck.
Also the flip side of "hold backs", breeders keeping "superior" animals to themselves just until they have enough "superior"stock to now cash in on.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 7, 2011)

licky said:


> Lots of BS in this thread. Half of the arguement here is about market strategy and how to push everything out the door faster, whether it is buying animals in pairs at "seemingly" lower prices, or proving that by paying big $$$ ensures you a better animal.
> I guess everyone is sick of the old coastal carpet or classic bredli and now wants a hypo/hyper version, because it looks pretty, now just add a shedding&feeding history and you got yourself a better quality animal, and now everyone elses animals suck.
> Also the flip side of "hold backs", breeders keeping "superior" animals to themselves just until they have enough "superior"stock to now cash in on.




Really?? I thought all the stuff is quite apt actually... People are going to breed their animals that's a given whether for experience or money. At the end of the day what are you going to do with the stock keep it? Would'nt it be best to let them know what their in for.... breed a spotted expect to let them go cheap as chips and it's going to cost you money in the long run but hey you get to experience breeding right?. Breed "quality" animals you may (and stress may) have a better chance of moving them. I thought this thread would actually make people think about the consequences of putting opposite sexes together?


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## fugawi (Mar 7, 2011)

You don't get me.....I may have used the wrong wording. Instead of "Big name" maybe I should say "Professional, high volume"....You know, breeders that hand out a card, have a trading name etc. I am a great believer that these guys breed great quality, good temperament, beautiful herps and have their place in the industry but in the past, because of the overheads, they have kept the price highish, sometimes ridiculously high ($4500 for a 3 inch gecko). I fully understand the reasons for this BUT all of these companies started as newbies and they all asked stupid questions along the way and made silly mistakes. These people learned from their mistakes and grew into good companies.
Saying that, newbies need to also learn from their mistakes and have the chance to grow and learn themselves. Todays newbie is tomorrows URS. If these newbies suddenly have lots of non morph, non high yellow/red, average, boring, standard (Instead of writing low quality) beardies and get rid of them for $20 each then that is good for competition and for getting "Dads kid" into the hobby AND for getting that kid into conserving and studying aussie natives....all good things. 
At the end of the day BOTH have their place and do their jobs. Most of the newbies DON'T start out trying to breed GTPs or Rough Scales.......I agree they would be idiots but it is their money to waste.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

I got you now. The difference is, the old hands learned by mistakes ( and success) because there was no one to give advise, the communication channels were nothing like today and breeding reptiles was in infancy.
I noticed that many new-comers today aren't listing to advice. They set their minds and goals, get their animals and then ask questions on forums when things go pear shape. Those are the newbies that are discouraged from breeding by the rest of the herp community. How often you see threads on here "what should I get next?" or "what can I put into my 4' tank?" I don't think I could bring myself to reply.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh, put a woma and some skinks in it Water-rat. 
Maybe a bearded dragon and a carpet python together.. 
It really annoys me (someone new to the hobbie) that there are people who can't even work that out and yet want to think about breeding :O Raising and incubating. 
Jesus, I wonder how they get dressed in the morning yet alone care for animals


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## -Katana- (Mar 7, 2011)

Jannico said:


> Oh, put a woma and some skinks in it Water-rat.
> Maybe a bearded dragon and a carpet python together..
> It really annoys me (someone new to the hobbie) that there are people who can't even work that out and yet want to think about breeding :O Raising and incubating.
> Jesus, I wonder how they get dressed in the morning yet alone care for animals


 
*groans*
Holy snapping ducks feet!
I just read that thread!


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## saximus (Mar 7, 2011)

Jannico said:


> Oh, put a woma and some skinks in it Water-rat.
> Maybe a bearded dragon and a carpet python together..
> It really annoys me (someone new to the hobbie) that there are people who can't even work that out and yet want to think about breeding :O Raising and incubating.
> Jesus, I wonder how they get dressed in the morning yet alone care for animals


 No Jannico you silly. They had been quarantined for two weeks and they were small so it would have been fine. Geez some people don't know anything


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## -Katana- (Mar 7, 2011)

saximus said:


> No Jannico you silly. They had been quarantined for two weeks and they were small so it would have been fine. Geez some people don't know anything


 
:lol:


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## moosenoose (Mar 7, 2011)

Parko said:


> Nah moose, you just lack the incredible skill it takes to breed pythons. Only ''reputable'' breeders should be allowed to participate otherwise who knows what could happen, we could see a flood of defective snakes with neurological issues being bred...


 
Yes I believe you're right  After all I still talk to my animals knowing full well they are deaf :lol:


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## Wookie (Mar 7, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Flooding any market with what you call (and I don't understand this) low quality animals (or low quality products of any sort) will more rapidly damage any market than keeping quality high and outcomes predictable...


 
Yeah I never understood the low quality high quality thing. "Low quality" means run of the mill snake which is often more natural than a "high quality" animal (yes i'm talking about inbreeding for traits and RPMs/crosses). As long as the snakes are healthy they are of equal quality (within reason obviously)- though of course, certain traits will be worth more money. That said, it does not make them better quality - just rarer.


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## moosenoose (Mar 7, 2011)

Sometimes I just wish some of the breeders themselves don't breed. There are some pretty bad traits in amongst some of them you definately don't want passed on!


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## Parko (Mar 7, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> Yes I believe you're right  After all I still talk to my animals knowing full well they are deaf :lol:


 What's that Moose? Speak up, i can't hear the writing on my putor. Lol Seriously it is good that this kind of debate is happening, let's face it the Australian herp scene has gone on a downward spiral in recent years. We so often hear things like trendy names for trendy snakes are ''good for the hobby'', yet nowadays we are promoting the hobby to a lazy generation that spends no time in the bush learning what Australia's reptiles are really about(and indeed all of Australian biodiversity). Forums should play a role in promoting knowledge of herpetology shouldn't they? Forums should be seen to play a role in promoting herpetology even at a small level, not simply promoting the pet trade. I never had access to the knowledge of senior herpers as a kid, yet i spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours walking the bush as a youngster, and still do. A recent thread highlighted this for me when a young tassie herper wanted to collect mountain heath dragons, so all he had to do was start a thread ''where can i find mountain heath dragons?'' And bang he has his info. Worst of all is when some mug can just leapfrog all the hard work put into Australian linebreeding of purebred sub species and go and smuggle in eurotrash with defective genes, the people promoting this line of pythons are the true dregs of the Aussie herp scene. The massive consumer attitude we are creating is encouraging this nonsense. High end animals should only refer to the price they sell for, a normal/natural looking python should never be described as ''lower quality'', absolutely no work has been put into breeding ''better temperaments'' either, this is just more deceptive advertising for the suckers.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Parko, your words are ringing in my ears. Not long ago I posted a question "is the hobby on a downward spiral?" Oh no, it isn't, the very opposite ... were most of the replies and I got flamed by some for suggesting that it is, despite the fact I only asked the question. Funny world, this fickle hobby.

To me, a "low quality" reptile is one that doesn't look right, is not moving right, brought to me in a dirty, smelly bag by a dirty, smelly yob. A "high quality" reptile is the opposite. Whether it's a plane old coastal or high grade morph is irrelevant to me. The so called "high end" reptiles are at the high end because of their high price, not necessarily high quality. That's how I look at it.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 7, 2011)

Yep... you guys got it in one! To be fair to fugawi, I think he/she has acknowledged that the words he/she used may not have been well chosen, so 'low quality' wasn't what was meant.



> Sometimes I just wish some of the breeders themselves don't breed. There are some pretty bad traits in amongst some of them you definately don't want passed on!



Well you'll all be pleased to know that I never bred... so when I go it's the end of the line!

J


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Well you'll all be pleased to know that I never bred... so when I go it's the end of the line!



Me too. Aren't we good conservationists Jamie?


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Me too. Aren't we good conservationists Jamie?



Not at conserving our species!


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 7, 2011)

Indeed we are Michael... now Gordo, do you really think we're under threat as a species? Except from the pressure of sheer numbers of course...

J


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## saximus (Mar 7, 2011)

Haha yeah I was gonna say you guys are probably doing more for the human race by not breeding


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Indeed we are Michael... now Gordo, do you really think we're under threat as a species? Except from the pressure of sheer numbers of course...
> 
> J



Hmmm, good point...


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Ahhh, here is a philosophical parallel; overpopulation is responsible for a global destruction of natural assets and over-breeding (of reptiles) may lead to destruction of this hobby in Oz.


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Parko, your words are ringing in my ears. Not long ago I posted a question "is the hobby on a downward spiral?" Oh no, it isn't, the very opposite ... were most of the replies and I got flamed by some for suggesting that it is, despite the fact I only asked the question. Funny world, this fickle hobby.
> 
> To me, a "low quality" reptile is one that doesn't look right, is not moving right, brought to me in a dirty, smelly bag by a dirty, smelly yob. A "high quality" reptile is the opposite. Whether it's a plane old coastal or high grade morph is irrelevant to me. The so called "high end" reptiles are at the high end because of their high price, not necessarily high quality. That's how I look at it.



You also made a very good thread about what experience is.


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## longqi (Mar 7, 2011)

I used to breed a fair few snakes and sell them quietly and am just getting back into that now
Probably the best thing to happen in Aus Herps in the last few years is the much larger number of GTPs for example
Even though it cost me money [my snakes had cost me about $10,000 each]; now anyone can own one
Overseas there are thousands of breeders of corn snakes as an example
yet there are always people wanting to buy them
Herpetology world wide is growing and becoming more affordable every year

This is mainly because of small time breeders who accidentally forced the price down
For a top quality horse you go to the best breeder and pay top dollar
But most people dont want/need the very best
They are happy with any nice snake in their lounge room


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## Wookie (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> To me, a "low quality" reptile is one that doesn't look right, is not moving right, brought to me in a dirty, smelly bag by a dirty, smelly yob. A "high quality" reptile is the opposite. Whether it's a plane old coastal or high grade morph is irrelevant to me. The so called "high end" reptiles are at the high end because of their high price, not necessarily high quality. That's how I look at it.


 
And thats the way it should be


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## Khagan (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Ahhh, here is a philosophical parallel; overpopulation is responsible for a global destruction of natural assets and over-breeding (of reptiles) may lead to destruction of this hobby in Oz.


 
The only thing 'over'breeding will (or is) destroy(ing) is the price. More being bred = more competition in price = more everyday people being able to afford an entry level reptile = large population in the hobby = the opposite of destruction. This grow in population would also = more demand for enclosures/racks/other products = more business for people with reptile related business, which also good for the hobby.

When it gets to the point where so many are being bred people can't give the hatchies away, then people in it for the wrong reasons will lose interest in doing it.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 7, 2011)

For everyone who is all for cheap reptiles understand that with this cheapness comes the mentality,from some, that they are disposable pets.I mean there are people around who would much rather let a $100 pet die if it was going to cost more to get it looked after by a vet.Much easier to go out and buy another one.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Khagan said:


> When it gets to the point where so many are being bred people can't give the hatchies away, then people in it for the wrong reasons will lose interest in doing it.



I think that is a fundamentally wrong assumption.
So you're saying that URS, SxR, SR, etc., are in it for the wrong reasons?
If you breed and can't sell or give away the progeny, what would happen to it?
Isn't it true that anybody at the entry level can certainly afford the current prices for entry level appropriate species?
What makes you think that cheap prices will bring more people into the hobby and if so, what kind of people will they be?
I could go on and on.


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## Dannyboi (Mar 7, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> For everyone who is all for cheap reptiles understand that with this cheapness comes the mentality,from some, that they are disposable pets.I mean there are people around who would much rather let a $100 pet die if it was going to cost more to get it looked after by a vet.Much easier to go out and buy another one.


Totally agree. Look at Zebra Finches. $1 each you think anyone ever takes them to the vet?


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> Totally agree. Look at Zebra Finches. $1 each you think anyone ever takes them to the vet?


 
$1 each?!?!?! Sound like a perfect feeder animal!


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## Dannyboi (Mar 7, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> $1 each?!?!?! Sound like a perfect feeder animal!


Yeah $1 here through a breeder. The most I have ever payed was $4.50 (Charcoal mutation)they breed faster and easier than mice. They are just too small for a snake of a decent size.


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## Khagan (Mar 7, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> For everyone who is all for cheap reptiles understand that with this cheapness comes the mentality,from some, that they are disposable pets.I mean there are people around who would much rather let a $100 pet die if it was going to cost more to get it looked after by a vet.Much easier to go out and buy another one.



It doesn't matter whether it's $100 or $500, people always have and always will cheap out on vets. It's a reflection of character, not market value.



Waterrat said:


> I think that is a fundamentally wrong assumption.
> So you're saying that URS, SxR, SR, etc., are in it for the wrong reasons?
> If you breed and can't sell or give away the progeny, what would happen to it?
> Isn't it true that anybody at the entry level can certainly afford the current prices for entry level appropriate species?
> ...


 
Those you listed are professionally ran, while they have to make a profit to be a business, they will still get business because of their reputation and people feeling safer purchasing from them cause of that. The people i were refering to are people who haven't done any hard yards breeding specific lines etc, and just decide to breed as what they think will be a get rich scheme rather than for the love of it.
The issue of not being able to sell/give away the progeny would make people think and plan out their breeding more carefully, they would have to plan for space to possibly keep the ones that aren't taken till they are taken, rather than just jumping into breeding willy nilly.

Sure, it's true people can afford a good portion of the common species now with recently seeing a lot in the $100 range, which is a good thing and how it should be.
Because not everyone is as fortunate to have X amount of money to throw around whenever they please, some of us on lower income may only be able to spare so much. What do you mean "what kind of people will they be?" That's a bit of a condescending snobbish attitude don't you think? Just cause someone doesn't earn as much money as you, doesn't mean they are any less of a credible person..


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

Khagan said:


> Sure, it's true people can afford a good portion of the common species now with recently seeing a lot in the $100 range, which is a good thing and how it should be.
> Because not everyone is as fortunate to have X amount of money to throw around whenever they please, some of us on lower income may only be able to spare so much. What do you mean "what kind of people will they be?" That's a bit of a condescending snobbish attitude don't you think? Just cause someone doesn't earn as much money as you, doesn't mean they are any less of a credible person..



If you are on such a low income and can't afford a $150 snake then how are you going to afford to house it, feed it, heat it and take it to the vet?


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## Khagan (Mar 7, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If you are on such a low income and can't afford a $150 snake then how are you going to afford to house it, feed it, heat it and take it to the vet?



I wasn't refering to $150 snakes as if you read i said that is how it should be..


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Khagan said:


> What do you mean "what kind of people will they be?" That's a bit of a condescending snobbish attitude don't you think? Just cause someone doesn't earn as much money as you, doesn't mean they are any less of a credible person..



Not a all. People who enter the hobby because reptiles are cheap would be entering for the wrong reason. Would you like to associate with them (that's the only snobbish remark I make)?
I understand that not everybody can afford everything .... but should they be able to? At least there is something to look forward to in better times. The reptile hobby is not a socialist society where everybody gets everything for nothing. I wonder how the reptile hobby goes in China, Cuba or North Korea. ?????

_When it gets to the point where so many are being bred people can't give the hatchies away, then people in it for the wrong reasons will lose interest in doing it._

But the low prices will drag down into the gutter the professionals and the good breeders too.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 7, 2011)

Are we angry because noobs are breeding snakes?

Are we angry because noobs are breeding snake without knowledge or jumping the que of experience by asking questions on forums?

Are we angry because noobs are breeding snakes, jumping the que without knowledge, asking stupid questions in forums and over supplying the market with cheaper products?

Are we angry because noobs are breeding snakes, jumping the que without knowledge, asking stupid questions in forums, over supplying the market with cheaper products and driving other established breeder's prices down?

Are we just plain angry?????

What are we angry about... you should'nt breed because you don't have the experience to do so, but no, no,no you can't ever acquire that knowledge or experience because you cant breed... Ummm whatda?

Somebody wants too breed let them breed.. look after your own backyard. If your product is any good people will still buy them in an over supplied market... If their that good you might even have a waiting list (not directed at anyone directly just an observation)


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## fugawi (Mar 7, 2011)

I think a lot of you should be less condescending towards noobs asking silly questions. We all can't have doctorates in herpetology.......sorry, hang on, most of you are breeders with years of experience (hit and miss), not fully educated, certified, with a diploma in herpetology.

Everyone needs to start somewhere.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Somebody wants to have a verbal diarrhea, let them have one.
Are we just plane angry? Red ink or red face?


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## longqi (Mar 7, 2011)

Lets just look at any snakes in general as pets
They simply lie around most of the time
They dont sing like a canary
They wont fetch a ball for you
They dont want to be taken for a walk as exercise

So their market is limited anyway

Most people dont realise how cheap they are to maintain
How easy they are to maintain etc etc

Top quality reptiles will always sell
So its up to breeders to improve their techniques
The more experienced breeders will usually have the best animals


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## ad (Mar 7, 2011)

Why do breeders encourage people to buy in pairs?

a). they get more sales as they sell 2 animals.
b). they can keep their sex ratio even so they arent stuck with only males or only females.

Any other reasons?



Why do people buy in pairs?

To breed them. 


They aren't book-ends, they dont need company. Breeders know this, so why should breeders get upset that the person they just sold a pair too are going to breed them and sell offspring also?


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## -Katana- (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Are we just plane angry?



Airport security makes me angry as well.:lol:


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## Dannyboi (Mar 7, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Airport security makes me angry as well.:lol:


Not me, Its always funny having them scan your carry on bag twice because your belt buckle looks like a ninja death star.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Somebody wants to have a verbal diarrhea, let them have one.
> Are we just plane angry? Red ink or red face?


 
Not angry mate just observant....

Many a time I have seen yourself advocate the good Ol days of just trading for specimens without the involvement of money.. Cheaper reptiles will bring us closer to that situation.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Stop drinking that red ink it clouds your mind.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 7, 2011)

And newbs should stop breeding reptiles for "experience" it affects the markets bottom line....


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## AUSHERP (Mar 7, 2011)

I prefer to trade for animals over money any day....... Money just gets chewed up by house and car repayments.
p.s
i recently bought an adult trio of carpet pythons they are all in a 2 ft tank, they wont eat the crickets i'm feeding them, should i sell them and try breeding a better snake that will eat?


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## hulloosenator (Mar 7, 2011)

ad said:


> Why do breeders encourage people to buy in pairs?
> 
> a). they get more sales as they sell 2 animals.
> b). they can keep their sex ratio even so they arent stuck with only males or only females.
> ...


 
why do some breeders sell 2 males as a pair or 2 females as a pair ????????....knowing full well what they are doing.......and not by mistake either , then when the customer rings up and questions it ( when they have found out the sex ) the seller says that a "pair" can be 2 of either sex.or the same. Well known breeders are known to do this.


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## AUSHERP (Mar 7, 2011)

quality 1st post hulloosenator this is "Aussie pythons and snakes" not "Bull **** down under"


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## Red-Ink (Mar 7, 2011)

AUSHERP said:


> i recently bought an adult trio of carpet pythons they are all in a 2 ft tank, they wont eat the crickets i'm feeding them, should i sell them and try breeding a better snake that will eat?


 
Have you tried housing skinks in there with them... If they see the skinks eating the crickets they will learn that crickets are food, the skinks can teach them.


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## AUSHERP (Mar 7, 2011)

I knew someone could help, I just never thought it would be the skinks.... of all people.


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## D3pro (Mar 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Parko, your words are ringing in my ears. Not long ago I posted a question "is the hobby on a downward spiral?" Oh no, it isn't, the very opposite ... were most of the replies and I got flamed by some for suggesting that it is, despite the fact I only asked the question. Funny world, this fickle hobby.


 
Ahh yes.... loved that thread....


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## -Katana- (Mar 7, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Have you tried housing skinks in there with them... If they see the skinks eating the crickets they will learn that crickets are food, the skinks can teach them.


 

This post is just forum gold.


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## hulloosenator (Mar 7, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Have you tried housing skinks in there with them... If they see the skinks eating the crickets they will learn that crickets are food, the skinks can teach them.



hang on there fellas...........i just got up off the floor from laughing


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## hugsta (Mar 7, 2011)

hulloosenator said:


> why do some breeders sell 2 males as a pair or 2 females as a pair ????????....knowing full well what they are doing.......and not by mistake either , then when the customer rings up and questions it ( when they have found out the sex ) the seller says that a "pair" can be 2 of either sex.or the same. Well known breeders are known to do this.


 
Well can you be more specific? I don't know of any well known breeders that do this, but would certainly love to know who they are so I can add them to my little black book. I have and many others I know I have sold thousands of snakes over the years and I have never misled anyone as to what they are buying. it does you absolutely no favours to bulll***** someone and sell them a "pair" of males. This may ring true if you are gay, no offence gay people, but whenever I here about 'pairs', it is always in regards to a M & F combination.



AUSHERP said:


> quality 1st post hulloosenator this is "Aussie pythons and snakes" not "Bull **** down under"


 

Agreed.


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## AUSHERP (Mar 7, 2011)

Thank you Hugsta, If ever there is a sexing mistake an appropriate swap takes place to rectify the situation.


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## hugsta (Mar 7, 2011)

AUSHERP said:


> Thank you Hugsta, If ever there is a sexing mistake an appropriate swap takes place to rectify the situation.


 
Exactly.


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## FAY (Mar 7, 2011)

hulloosenator said:


> why do some breeders sell 2 males as a pair or 2 females as a pair ????????....knowing full well what they are doing.......and not by mistake either , then when the customer rings up and questions it ( when they have found out the sex ) the seller says that a "pair" can be 2 of either sex.or the same. Well known breeders are known to do this.



I have never heard of any reputable breeder doing this.


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## Waterrat (Mar 7, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> And newbs should stop breeding reptiles for "experience" it affects the markets bottom line....



Says Red-Ink - listen to his wisdom. You'll be experienced.


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## Dannyboi (Mar 7, 2011)

FAY said:


> I have never heard of any reputable breeder doing this.


There was a forum member complaining about it but it was a little worse they were sold as a "sexed pair" at an expo they were apparently well known breeders too.


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## bk201 (Mar 7, 2011)

fun thread to read laughing at most of the posts and the people

i find it odd how people are saying low quality as normal reptiles, i guess we know these are the ones in it for the money.

Also the claim that the small breeders/"newbies" are flooding the market and bringing down the prices is ridiculous, is it the small breeders with 500+ bearded dragons to offload of course not its the older breeders who decided its time to make a sight name a few morphs and breed a massive amount to cash in, breeding blind lizards because they are albino etc which is ridiculous.

i have goten many lizards and a few snakes over the last few years and the majority of the breeders are keepers who keep a few species of good quality animals, these are not 10k+ animals they are natural looking healthy animals they maintain and breed for many generations, which is what alot of the "newbies" plan to do it is the small minority of newbies that are making these posts and they just seem to stand out we all know why. 


anyway check the for sale adds this season and next season and see many of these "big high quality breeders" with way to much stock seen a few over last few years with 500+ bearded dragons etc they cant unload so fancy names, morphs, dwarfs, appear and the "quality" goes up yet its the same stock many of these "newbies" have like myself i got a "high quality" $150 dollar red bearded dragon as my first dragon, which is grey, but i dont care its healty and doing great.

soooo get over yourselves already.


i do know many of the expensive high quality reptiles are genuine but like with the money hungry newbies same applies to experienced keepers/ big breeders etc so dont be fooled into thinking its the new keepers fault.


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 8, 2011)

Khagan said:


> It doesn't matter whether it's $100 or $500, people always have and always will cheap out on vets. It's a reflection of character, not market value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In one breath your saying people who cheap out on vets are of poor character and in the next breath your standing up for those that might not be able to afford a vet at all after spending only 100 bucks on a snake, Who's being condescending and snobbish?


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## CodeRed (Mar 8, 2011)

hugsta said:


> Well can you be more specific? I don't know of any well known breeders that do this, but would certainly love to know who they are so I can add them to my little black book. I have and many others I know I have sold thousands of snakes over the years and I have never misled anyone as to what they are buying. it does you absolutely no favours to bulll***** someone and sell them a "pair" of males. This may ring true if you are gay, no offence gay people, but whenever I here about 'pairs', it is always in regards to a M & F combination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Daz, you're forgetting our old mate up in Cairns (well he's moved now). He sold me 3 male bredli as a trio and a female jungle that turned out to be his worst feeding male. Shame you cant publicly mention names, but enough people know already


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## Red-Ink (Mar 8, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Says Red-Ink - listen to his wisdom. You'll be experienced.


 
Damn right.... for all the people out there who want to breed your reptiles go for it.... breeding reptiles aint the monopoly of the few. Just keep breeding them, I mean how much experience can one person want in breeding. A decade of breeding surely they have enough "experience" in it and should probably move one from the breeding experience. Afterall were all just in it for the "experience" right?.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 8, 2011)

Gee, 12 hours away from the computer and the old chips-on-the-shoulders are really showing themselves!

Red-Ink & Khagan, you both clearly have issues with objectivity. Neither of you have put forth any reasonable arguments in favour of a 'breeding free-for-all' other than some silly notion that 'experienced' breeders don't want newcomers encroaching on their turf, and 'it's my right to do whatever I want, whenever I want to...' Both of those arguments are entirely subjective, and reflect a 'last resort response' to the serious questions posed here. The 'I'll ********* do what I like, just try and stop me...' isn't really appropriate where live animals are concerned. We already have reptile 'welfare' at the forefront of bureaucratic scrutiny of our hobby here in NSW, and it's only going to get worse as time goes on and there are thousands of unwanted breli & Coastals being poorly maintained, starved or released.

I know many breeders who sell true pairs of animals, to relative newcomers who display the attributes of future responsible breeders themselves, and are very happy to offer advice on breeding down the track... In fact I don't know any reputable breeder who would refuse to do this. I'm sure Michael, who cops a bit of flak here because of his stance on 'free-for-all' breeding (like me), has sold true pairs of animals to people he knows are proposing to breed them later, and I would be very surprised if he hung up on his clients of 3-4 years earlier when they want advice. He has published heaps of info on GTP husbandry, all of it useful and lots of it relating to breeding.

Jealousy is one of the biggest problems facing herp keepers as a community, it fractures and destroys any objectivity in debates like this.

I don't know one 'successful' breeder who doesn't enjoy sharing the knowledge they have accumulated over the years. If yours is the opposite experience, you're obviously living in a different world than mine, and maybe you should get out more...

Jamie


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## Red-Ink (Mar 8, 2011)

Jamie
No one is questioning the knowledge and after care support breeders provide in fact that's what makes you a good breeder and therefore will be a reputable one.. The problem seems to be is the assumption put into new/first time breeders that they wont look after the welfare or do not have the knowledge to do so... How are they meant to acquire that knowledge if we are discouraging them from breeding? 
You're telling me it's a subjective rhetoric of "it's my right to do whatever I want, whenever I want to..."
Is,... "breeding's hard, you don't know what your in for... you shouldn't do it..." not a subjective rhetoric from breeders as well... If they found it that hard why repeat the process year in year out?
The flood of the market on reptiles seems to be at the core of these debates, arguments such as cheap reptiles are disposable reptiles to an extent I'm sure that happens, but waht also happens on the other side of the coin is somebody having a reptile for a value they can afford adding to the numbers of reptile keepers. Is that not our main weapon in the fight against bureaucracy? How are we going to grow the hobby if there are no reptiles out there.... It's not just new/first time breeders that flood the market.... I can understand why newbs breed their reptiles , they've never done it before and again want to experience it.. legitimate don't you think? So in an already flooded market with the knowledge of breeders that newbies lack in it's "effects" in the hobby, ask yourself why would they breed that year as well if they know there's going to be a flood of reptiles?

Instead of discouraging new breeders from seeking the knowledge through breeding maybe we should flip the coin and discourage people who have already gone through it from doing it again....?


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gee, 12 hours away from the computer and the old chips-on-the-shoulders are really showing themselves!
> 
> Red-Ink & Khagan, you both clearly have issues with objectivity. Neither of you have put forth any reasonable arguments in favour of a 'breeding free-for-all' other than some silly notion that 'experienced' breeders don't want newcomers encroaching on their turf, and 'it's my right to do whatever I want, whenever I want to...' Both of those arguments are entirely subjective, and reflect a 'last resort response' to the serious questions posed here. The 'I'll ********* do what I like, just try and stop me...' isn't really appropriate where live animals are concerned. We already have reptile 'welfare' at the forefront of bureaucratic scrutiny of our hobby here in NSW, and it's only going to get worse as time goes on and there are thousands of unwanted breli & Coastals being poorly maintained, starved or released.
> 
> ...



I think jealousy is the biggest problem in our hobby. It is seriously affecting how we move forward and the availability of new species. I know more than one case where it has caused or causing animals to be blocked from entering our hobby. 

On a different note, Khagan and red-ink. You are both very vocal on your self proclaimed right to breed, and i suppose you are not wrong. Breeding is your perogative. However neither of you have given an argument that adresses the rights of the animal, what are you going to do when you breed your coastals/macs/bredli and you can't move them on? And what ground breaking experience do you expect to achieve from breeding them? You both keep spouting that it is how you get experienced. It's not, any moron with a M/F pair of most of the common snakes can produce a clutch.



Red-Ink said:


> Instead of discouraging new breeders from seeking the knowledge through breeding maybe we should flip the coin and discourage people who have already gone through it from doing it again....?


 
You will end up doing that to yourself. I saw what was happening to the market and i was worried for the welfare of my progeny, so i quit breeding.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for that thoughtful response RI.

Firstly, I know some of the biggest breeders in NSW (the nice ones that is!) and they all tell me that they have cut way back on species they can't move. JW and Snake Ranch has reduced some species, Jungles and RSPs to name a couple, because they are hard to move at the moment - at a price which reflects the costs borne in hatching and raising them to a saleable size. This is the endless debate about supply and demand controlling price... but at the end of the day, if the prices you can charge don't reflect what it costs you in energy and time (especially time), then those with the knowledge and skills will move on to something else. This leaves newcomers exposed to purchasing from one-trick ponies, and the complications that causes. One year I had a clutch of 22 GTPs, 18 of them took me over four months to become established feeders (some clutches are great with GTPs, some are bloody pains...). I never took account of the hours I spent working with them, but I did 2-3 hours almost every night. I breed very few snakes, so it's a labour of love for me (most of the time!), but if you multiply that input by 10 or 20 for a bigger breeder, the costs in time are enormous. This is fun for a first up breeder with one clutch...

I can absolutely understand why newish keepers want to breed their animals, it's a fantastic experience and worth doing just for that alone, but there are downsides which can't be ignored, such as the oversupply of cheaper animals on the market. If you read any of the posts I've made on a few threads relating to this topic, I've always suggested to aspiring breeders that they target their species, and never suggested that they don't breed anything. This has often been distorted by other contributors to mean that I'm trying to protect my own interests, and is a pervasive myth about me and others, that colours the opinions of a number of members here. I've never said breeding's hard to aspiring breeders, I do point out what they're in for, but most who are serious about it accept the challenge, and if that's the case, I'm very happy to work with them to assist their reaching their goal.

I've been keeping reptiles for over 50 years, WAY before they had any commercial value, or they were 'commodified', so my interest in them runs far deeper than any commercial gain I may make from them (ask my wife about costs vs profit - you'll get an eye-opening response!), and I've seen herp keeping change beyond recognition in the past 20 years especially.

It's probably my age (grumpy old man!) and experience which gives me an overview that differs from that of newcomers to the hobby/business. But I can see a bigger picture at this point in time - the herp community is an unfocused and undisciplined mob, state legislations are a shambles of individual fiefdoms across the country, the laws we operate under now bear no relation to the current landscape because they were drafted 40 years ago and so much has changed... all the while 10s of thousands of animals are coming onto the market every year, many of which face a very uncertain future...

So much to do... so little time!

J


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## Red-Ink (Mar 8, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> On a different note, Khagan and red-ink. You are both very vocal on your self proclaimed right to breed, and i suppose you are not wrong. Breeding is your perogative. However neither of you have given an argument that adresses the rights of the animal, what are you going to do when you breed your coastals/macs/bredli and you can't move them on? And what ground breaking experience do you expect to achieve from breeding them? You both keep spouting that it is how you get experienced. It's not, any moron with a M/F pair of most of the common snakes can produce a clutch.
> 
> 
> You will end up doing that to yourself. I saw what was happening to the market and i was worried for the welfare of my progeny, so i quit breeding.



As far as addressing the rights of the animals, that would be in accordance to each persons moral standards... That's something nobody can control. Some people are prepared to take on all left over progeny some people simply can not nor do they care. That's an argument that's based on ethics... I can only speak for myself personally... I'm well prepared to take on the responsibility of hatchlings as thanks to forums and the knowledge passed on by breeders before me I know what I'm in for. I currently have bred a species of gecko that I have never bred before... I haven't rushed out too sell them at two weeks of age and currently still have all the hatchlings as the so called "experience" is still new and I'm currently still observing them. Again not everybody will do that.

Any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch but if that moron has never done it before then it would still be an experience for so called moron... To experienced breeders it's just another clutch of macs.. to the new moron it's WOW i've just hatched my first clutch of macs.... Everybody forgotten that feeling they got when they hatched their first clutch??? The amount of knowledge they gained from it, from cooling to incubation to setting up the hatchling racks to getting them to start feeding and down to the disappointment of knowing their having a hard time moving them on... all part of the learning process

I have no doubt I will end up not breeding... In fact I kept reptiles for over a decade before even trying.


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Instead of discouraging new breeders from seeking the knowledge through breeding maybe we should flip the coin and discourage people who have already gone through it from doing it again....?



Those established breeders who breed every year are most probably working on improving certain traits, creating morphs, etc. because that's what everybody wants. I don't hear those breeders complaining about not being able to move their animals, it's the new breeders, breeding common stuff that are finding it hard.
I mentioned URS, SxR and SR and Red-Ink replied that they are professionals, they have to make money. Is my breeding program not costing me anything? The downside of the ever-falling prices is, it will take the professionals down the gurgle too. But I guess, that the bigger picture some people here don't see.

_I haven't rushed out too sell them at two weeks of age and currently still have all the hatchlings as the so called "experience" is still new and I'm currently still observing them. Again not everybody will do that.
_
I hope you're going to publish and share you observations and newly acquired knowledge with the whole herp community. Please let us know when it comes hot off the press.


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## hugsta (Mar 8, 2011)

CodeRed said:


> Hey Daz, you're forgetting our old mate up in Cairns (well he's moved now). He sold me 3 male bredli as a trio and a female jungle that turned out to be his worst feeding male. Shame you cant publicly mention names, but enough people know already


 
Ah yes, I did forget about that scumbag, but, he didn't last very long once everyone was onto his way of lying and ripping people off. He had to underground as he became well hated in this industry.



Red-Ink said:


> Any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch but if that moron has never done it before then it would still be an experience for so called moron... To experienced breeders it's just another clutch of macs.. to the new moron it's WOW i've just hatched my first clutch of macs.... Everybody forgotten that feeling they got when they hatched their first clutch??? The amount of knowledge they gained from it, from cooling to incubation to setting up the hatchling racks to getting them to start feeding and down to the disappointment of knowing their having a hard time moving them on... all part of the learning process


 
Pretty sure there is no real reason to call any newcommers or first time breeders morons.......

I think you are all missing one main point. The reason you are wanting to breed in the first place. Most of the keepers that have been around for a long time got into this hobby purely for their passion of keeping reptiles. Breeding was a secondary thought and generally, making money was not in the equasion. However, times have changed and now people seem to be less content with getting one snake, it is more along the lines of, geez, if I get a pair and breed them I can make lots of money. Which is, IMO, a decision based not on the enjoyment of keeping reptiles, but based on making money, with the side enjoyment of having reptiles. Very little thought is put into the whole scenario of how do I care for the neonates, how much time is involved in getting them to feed, how do I move excess stock, can I afford to buy all the equipment to look after them, can I get a readily available supply of food etc etc etc. I am all for newbs learning about breeding and the ups and downs of it, it is a great experience that I enjoy every year. the countless hours at night just checking to see if there have been succussful matings or not. I check animals in my reptile room more times a day then I care to count, just because I love to see what they are doing or if they need cleaning etc....

I also agree with rams, when animals become too cheap, they become disposable. You can see this easily with fish, one dies, they just go buy more and don't care. However, those with fish worth thousands tend to make sure their tanks, water quality etc etc is spot on and take much greater care of their prized animals.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 8, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I mentioned URS, SxR and SR and *Red-Ink replied that they are professionals*, they have to make money. Is my breeding program not costing me anything? The downside of the ever-falling prices is, it will take the professionals down the gurgle too. But I guess, that the bigger picture some people here don't see.


 
Wasn't me Michael... Please re-read the thread, I have the utmost admiration for these people and I myself am guilty of wanting their animals....

Let's not forget who slung the first stone here... I expressed my opinion and how did you put it... commit "verbal diarrhea"


I understand that we all have cost in our breeding programs and some of this cost must be re-covered... Yet do you not keep your adult specimens in natural conditions? Is there a high cost for the sun over there? For the price of greens how much of that covers the running cost how much of it is profit (nothing wrong with profit, heck I want some of it)... Just don't pretend were not making it. People on forums are not mathematically inept and could not understand a simple cost sheet... Say 10 hatchlings at 2K each... what's the left over from the 20K after we take out running cost? All initial outlays for breeding stock, enclosures, incubators etc..etc.. would have been recovered after the first two years (if not the first) of breeding. 

I have no desire for fame or noteriety as far as my observations go so there's no need to write a paper about it... I don't need to flex or stroke my ego about that. They may or may not be of any value to the herp community I'm pretty sure I'm not observing anything new as I'm going by tried and true methods but I find them valuable for my own learning process as I have never done it before.

Newbies buying from the professionals with well established lines/traits/morphs will continue that and improve it even if the big professionals disappear (self preservation here isn't it) due to running cost in a flooded market if that's what your concerned about in the hobby... Big enough picture? Just think about the lines you sell now will be contributing to the future lines of improved traits in GTPs in the future (though may not be through your hands but in the hands of a once newbie).



hugsta said:


> Pretty sure there is no real reason to call any newcommers or first time breeders morons.......


 
Sorry mate going by the term used in Gordo's post....I, by no means imply anybody is a moron.

_"It's not any *moron *with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch"_


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> I have no desire for fame or noteriety as far as my observations go so there's no need to write a paper about it... I don't need to flex or stroke my ego about that. [/I]



So, that's why you think people publish papers, articles and books? I pity you.


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## hugsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Sorry mate going by the term used in Gordo's post....I, by no means imply anybody is a moron.
> 
> _"It's not any *moron *with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch"_


 
Not a problem. It is just that in threads like this, a heated or heavily debated topic can all turn to crraapp quite rapidly when people start becoming derogatory. I am sure most took no offence to it anyway.
I must have missed Gordo's comment, sorry about that.


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

Gordo didn't say that newbies are morons, he said "any moron can ....." that could include you, me and everybody else.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 8, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> So, that's why you think people publish papers, articles and books? I pity you.


 
Thanks Michael... glad somebody takes pity on me.. Who else do you take pity on by the way from your high chair out of curiousity.... just me?


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

You're not making much sense, so I am out of here.

ciao


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## saximus (Mar 8, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> If you read any of the posts I've made on a few threads relating to this topic, I've always suggested to aspiring breeders that they target their species, and never suggested that they don't breed anything. This has often been distorted by other contributors to mean that I'm trying to protect my own interests, and is a pervasive myth about me and others, that colours the opinions of a number of members here. I've never said breeding's hard to aspiring breeders, I do point out what they're in for, but most who are serious about it accept the challenge, and if that's the case, I'm very happy to work with them to assist their reaching their goal.
> 
> I've been keeping reptiles for over 50 years


:shock: I had no idea you were that old Jamie. I pictured a 40 year old at the oldest on the other side of my computer screen.
I 'm ashamed to say I was one of the ones who fell into the category of thinking the experienced people like you and most of the guys on this thread are out to protect your own interests. Reading this thread I was obviously wrong and won't be falling into that way of thinking so easily in the future.

I think there is a common thread here that almost everyone can agree on. 


Breeding purely for money just doesn't happen
New breeders should do their homework and understand the risks/rewards involved in what they are planning and make an educated decision
There are definitely a lot of animals (too many?) around now that are bred and can't be offloaded every year
"Reputable" and "experienced" are two different things
Everything else to me just seems like personal opinion and will never be agreed on no matter how long this argument/debate goes for


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## Red-Ink (Mar 8, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> You're not making much sense, so I am out of here.
> 
> ciao


 
Bye... and thanks for playing...


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 8, 2011)

> I had no idea you were that old Jamie. I pictured a 40 year old at the oldest on the other side of my computer screen.



Lol! I can't help it if I look so young...

J


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## Kyro (Mar 8, 2011)

What will happen to the hobby if the reptiles that are generally affordable don't get bred anymore? Most people that are new to the hobby start out with these species because they are easy to get, affordable & easy to care for. If the only animals available are way out of their price range then won't they just go buy a $20 corn snake instead? How can that be a good thing for the industry?
No nasty replies, i'm genuinely interested in what people think would happen if the hobby goes this way.


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> As far as addressing the rights of the animals, that would be in accordance to each persons moral standards... That's something nobody can control. Some people are prepared to take on all left over progeny some people simply can not nor do they care. That's an argument that's based on ethics... I can only speak for myself personally... I'm well prepared to take on the responsibility of hatchlings as thanks to forums and the knowledge passed on by breeders before me I know what I'm in for. I currently have bred a species of gecko that I have never bred before... I haven't rushed out too sell them at two weeks of age and currently still have all the hatchlings as the so called "experience" is still new and I'm currently still observing them. Again not everybody will do that.
> 
> Any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch but if that moron has never done it before then it would still be an experience for so called moron... To experienced breeders it's just another clutch of macs.. to the new moron it's WOW i've just hatched my first clutch of macs.... Everybody forgotten that feeling they got when they hatched their first clutch??? The amount of knowledge they gained from it, from cooling to incubation to setting up the hatchling racks to getting them to start feeding and down to the disappointment of knowing their having a hard time moving them on... all part of the learning process
> 
> I have no doubt I will end up not breeding... In fact I kept reptiles for over a decade before even trying.



This is the thing that most newbs don't understand, most justify there position on wanting to breed by saying 'I want to learn through the experience'. There is not much to be gained from breeding the common species. 

And i would like everyone to take not that i have never said anybody shouldn't be breeding their animals.


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## Syn2554 (Mar 8, 2011)

I will breed one day, but while in high school, I will NEVER find the time. After all, the welfare of up to 30 snakes is what comes first.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 8, 2011)

The same thing happens with all commodities - when they become scarcer, the price goes up because of supply & demand, they become more 'worthwhile' to breed so more people breed them... they become more readily available, so the price goes down again. It's a cycle, same with birds, dogs, anything really.

J


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## fugawi (Mar 8, 2011)

Let me try to objectively summarise the (for the sake of argument I'll call them Professional/pro Breeders) Pro breeders arguments.

Noobs shouldn't breed because;
a;They are in it for the wrong reasons.
b;They are only in it for the money.
c;They don't have the experience.
d;They won't get any experience anyway, even with the common breeds.
e;They are flooding the market.
f;They will sell only sick, unhealthy, badly bred animals.
g;They will destroy the hobby.
h;They ask stupid questions.

Did I miss any? Conclusion.......If we allow noobs to breed anything, they will destroy the world as we know it. Therefore it is best to leave all reptile breeding to the professional breeders.

Is it just me or do these arguments just look ridiculous when put together.


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 8, 2011)

I think that at the root of all those arguments is the welfare of the progeny Fugawi.


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Let me try to objectively summarise the (for the sake of argument I'll call them Professional/pro Breeders) Pro breeders arguments.
> 
> Noobs shouldn't breed because;
> a;They are in it for the wrong reasons. Not necessarily but some are.
> ...



Fugawi, can I ask - are you a newbie to this hobby or gust a stirrer?


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 8, 2011)

I think it's you fugawi - I thought you showed some reason a bit earlier... but that chip is still there. I think you may need reading glasses too, it seems you've missed all the reasoned arguments, both for and against. 

They do look ridiculous when put together, but they're entirely of your own making... you can draw your own conclusions. You haven't been around for very long if you think generalisations like that are anything like the real world.

Jamie


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## fugawi (Mar 8, 2011)

How do you come to that conclusion? Are you saying that only noobs do these things? That the Pros don't? That the Pros prime consideration is the welfare of the animals and that someone new to breeding won't look after the babies?


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

Whom are you talking to, Steve, Jamie or me? Are you really 44 years of age?


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

Well done Fugawi, you have dragged this thread down to the gutter.


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## saximus (Mar 8, 2011)

For those who have forgotten after 9 pages :


Brodak_Moment said:


> I see thread after thread where inexperienced keepers are asking about breeding requirements and are repeatedly told not to breed for the good of the market by more experienced breeders. Though this may be correct, it seems wrong to discourage new keepers from breeding, while the old hats continue to breed their own stock. I think if people are aware the difficulty they may go through trying to sell garden variety animals, they are more than welcome to breed their pets because I'm sure after losing money and time while stressing to sell offspring they won't want to breed again. This way they are still retaining the experience and joy of breeding. It seems very unfair to frag a keeper for breeding when it was the old hats who have done their part (along with new breeders) to flood the market each year. Please don't get me wrong, many inexperienced keepers post ridiculously retarded questions and definitely should not breed, though some are simply very keen for the experience. And I'm also not saying long time breeders are bad, they have contributed a lot to the hobby, developed and refined many traits or morphs and made snakes much cheaper for me to buy today .
> 
> Everybody feel free to contribute. Pros/cons of breeding in the current market



I personally think that a lot of the most "experienced" and "influential" members on this site had gone a long way to explaining the responses they give to new breeders when they ask stupid questions without doing any research. Most seem like very reasonable people and usually have the welfare of the animals in mind most of all. Prior to this thread I thought pretty differently about those attitudes and I'm personally very glad this came up to help clarify things. Apparently though I was wrong or this message was lost on certain members though...


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## Red-Ink (Mar 8, 2011)

Fugawi... you've even lost me on that one mate and I'm for newbies having a go at breeding so that's saying a lot.... The arguments are devissive mate and of no real help as Jamie said just seems like a bit of a chip...


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## KaotikJezta (Mar 8, 2011)

Hmm...I have read this thread with great interest being a relative newbie to the whole reptile keeping hobby. I have my passions and I can name all of them here, some are very cheap and prolific, Bearded Dragons, Water Dragons, some have become a lot cheaper Womas, Boyds, and some are about the same as when I first started Frill Necks, Ridge Tailed Monitors, Angle Heads. I have a pair of Maccies, sold to me as a breeding pair, that bred a few years ago and due to inexperience and lack of help from either the person we purchased from or anyone else really we lost all the hatchies. I was devastated as I am very attached to all my animals reptile and otherwise. I had the sense to realise that Maccies were not an ideal first snake to breed due to the feeding difficulties, it was just unfortunate no one told me this before I bred them. Especially the person I bought them off who was more than helpful before I purchased them but didn't want to know after they had the money. I learnt from it the hard way and have not yet bred them again. They are still really awesome snakes and the fact I am not breeding them makes no difference and I would never part with them just because I am not making money off them. I now have a pair of hatchling womas on hold awaiting my advanced licence. I chose them very carefully and read everything I could about them before deciding on them. I have always loved them since I first ever discovered them when they were way out of my price range. It is a dream come true for me to be able to own them. It is probably a girl thing but I love there little faces. I was offered older animals but I wanted to grow and learn with them. Yes I would like to breed them for the experience and joy and excitement of it. Unlike the Maccies though, I know I will have a good support back-up from the people I purchased them off. If ,when they are of breeding age, the market is flooded, I also have the common sense to realize breeding is not a good idea as I would more than likely have a bunch of tiny snakes to care for indefinately. I am not in it for the money and would happily trade or give animals to people I believed would give them the best home possible. It has taken me 5 years to amass my feeble collection of 2 maccies, 2 gippies, 1 eastern water dragon and now the 2 womas as I wanted each one to be perfectly set up before getting the next. I am in it for the love of the animals before anything else. I only recently got my 2 Gippies because I am about to upgrade my Eastern to a new enclosure. And if they turn out to be two boys looks like I'll have three huge outdoor enclosures down the track haha. I do understand why some more experienced keepers get frustrated with new people and have read some questions that make the mind boggle. But it would be nice to know that those experienced breeders were there to offer support and help when genuinely needed as none of us can ever know everything.


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## fugawi (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm not the one making generalisations.....Every one of those points have been brought up in this thread. I believe anyone with an interest in breeding should give it a go.
I personally have kept reptiles for 11-12 yrs, I have read every book, paper, literature on reptiles, especially Aus natives that I can get my hands on. I have an insatiable appetite for information on the subject. I am a keen 4wder and bushwalker and don't go anywhere without my DSLR in search of herps. I am about to start my degree in natural studies/ animal studies to be followed by herpetology at James Cook Uni. I haven't bred any herps yet but have had 10-15 yrs experience breeding Siberian Huskies, was in the siberian husky club, malamute club and registered with the canine council. I bred high pedigree pure bred sibes and gave them to friends...free. I haven't bred reptiles before so yes I must be a NOOB, therefore by definition I should never breed reptiles......ever.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 8, 2011)

> I haven't bred reptiles before so yes I must be a NOOB, therefore by definition I should never breed reptiles......ever.



Gee, I hope your reasoning and interpretive powers develop before you start studying fugawi, or you'll not be able to make sense of any sorts of technical texts. You seem to have a one track mind.



Noobs shouldn't breed because;
a;They are in it for the wrong reasons.
b;They are only in it for the money.
c;They don't have the experience.
d;They won't get any experience anyway, even with the common breeds.
e;They are flooding the market.
f;They will sell only sick, unhealthy, badly bred animals.
g;They will destroy the hobby.
h;They ask stupid questions.

If these aren't generalisations, I don't know what is...

J


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

Let's just change the topic slightly, just to make a small comparison which may or may not be appropriate. 

As a registered dog breeder, what is your opinion on back yard breeders? 



fugawi said:


> I'm not the one making generalisations.....Every one of those points have been brought up in this thread. I believe anyone with an interest in breeding should give it a go.
> I personally have kept reptiles for 11-12 yrs, I have read every book, paper, literature on reptiles, especially Aus natives that I can get my hands on. I have an insatiable appetite for information on the subject. I am a keen 4wder and bushwalker and don't go anywhere without my DSLR in search of herps. I am about to start my degree in natural studies/ animal studies to be followed by herpetology at James Cook Uni. I haven't bred any herps yet but have had 10-15 yrs experience breeding Siberian Huskies, was in the siberian husky club, malamute club and registered with the canine council. I bred high pedigree pure bred sibes and gave them to friends...free. I haven't bred reptiles before so yes I must be a NOOB, therefore by definition I should never breed reptiles......ever.


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## saximus (Mar 8, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Let's just change the topic slightly, just to make a small comparison which may or may not be appropriate.
> 
> As a registered dog breeder, what is your opinion on back yard breeders?


 I've often been curious to hear someone make this comparison too...


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## AUSHERP (Mar 8, 2011)

The argument was not against all noobs, how could it be?
What was said was the noobs that ask ridiculous questions "can my beardie live with a lacie, i want to X breed" are discouraged from breeding because they clearly haven't even got a grasp on the fundamentals of keeping.
What was also said was that noobs who have only entered the hobby to make money should not because their gain would be minimal and their opinions on the hobby are unwanted because they are un-educated on the inner workings of it.
Noobs that ask genuine keeping/breeding questions are encouraged and welcomed, most of the big breeders that you are attacking have written countless husbandry guides that are a fantastic, selfless resource for anyone who wants them.......... I don't understand the mud slinging.


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

May I put my view forward ... and then I go. Please do not try interpret what I say into your way of thinking (especially you fugawi), I try to clear as much as I can.

A lot on newbies are entering into the hobby with the idea of breeding reptiles as soon as they get them or as soon as their snakes reach maturity, they often choose species that will breed soon. If that's their main objective, so be it but some basic keeping experience and a sound knowledge about their chosen species should a prerequisite. 
They should also consider the costs and time involved in breeding and rearing the young and realistically plan their disposal. If someone comes onto the forum asking which species brings good money when bred, they should be explained the facts and that without too much delicate handling - there is no room for such individuals in the hobby because there is every chance the welfare of the animals they acquire and breed will be compromised. It's our duty to discourage them. 
Flooding the market is not a fault of newbies, every keeper who breeds excessively is contributing to this problem. The "destruction" of the hobby was mentioned - it would take an army of very stupid newbies to effect the hobby adversely but illegal importation can have a devastating effect if continued. I am not going to comment on Jags, hybrids, etc..
From what have seen on this forum, most, if not all the more experienced keepers are happy to help with advice or in kind (if geographically possible) but it would be nice if the newbie's questions were formulated in an intelligent and polite style. How often do we see threads titled "I suppose this is a stupid question but" what does it say about the person and his/her question?

That's all, it's almost time for a glass of red.


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## KaotikJezta (Mar 8, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Let's just change the topic slightly, just to make a small comparison which may or may not be appropriate.
> 
> As a registered dog breeder, what is your opinion on back yard breeders?


 
I think that is a bit different as no domesticated dog pedigree or otherwise is actually from a pure line and more often than not "purebred" dogs have all sorts of genetic problems from selective breeding programs and inbreeding that a lot of "mongrels" don't have. But I guess the same could be said about breeding albino animals and designer types of any species. I don't know how it works with reptiles, but many dog and cat breeders will have imperfect animals destroyed rather than find them good pet homes.


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

That question was aimed at Fugawi and his twisted interpretations. I didn't post it to compare the two practices. 

I'm curious as to why he would bother to affiliate with the ANKC when he could just be a backyard breeder instead. 



kaotikjezta said:


> I think that is a bit different as no domesticated dog pedigree or otherwise is actually from a pure line and more often than not "purebred" dogs have all sorts of genetic problems from selective breeding programs and inbreeding that a lot of "mongrels" don't have. But I guess the same could be said about breeding albino animals and designer types of any species. I don't know how it works with reptiles, but many dog and cat breeders will have imperfect animals destroyed rather than find them good pet homes.


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## hugsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Also keep in mind most high end dog breeders will sell limited amounts to be bred from, the others are sold and must be desexed as part of the terms of purchase. So maybe that is what the larger breeders should do, work on getting reptiles desexed so you cannot breed from their lines.


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

He's become very quiet all of a sudden. Nothing but a troll. Trolls shouldn't breed. Neither should Ricky Nixon.


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

Ahhh, hugsta, you are an inspiration. I can just see my new ad: "cyclone-proof desexed Yasi chondros" ... discount on pairs. :lol::lol::lol:


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## AUSHERP (Mar 8, 2011)

That would really shield the market Michael and stop any noobs from breeding your line and poaching your customers....


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## hugsta (Mar 8, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Ahhh, hugsta, you are an inspiration. I can just see my new ad: "cyclone-proof desexed Yasi chondros" ... discount on pairs. :lol::lol::lol:



lol


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## KaotikJezta (Mar 8, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> That question was aimed at Fugawi and his twisted interpretations. I didn't post it to compare the two practices.
> 
> I'm curious as to why he would bother to affiliate with the ANKC when he could just be a backyard breeder instead.


 
Yes, I know. Dog breeders and their supposed superior dogs are a bit of a sore point with me, sorry bout that.


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## fugawi (Mar 8, 2011)

Talk about mud slinging....at this stage I have not said a nasty word about a single person but in return I have had my age questioned, my intelligence questioned and even my own personal experience with herps questioned by the very people who wrote those arguments. Those same old arguments that have been bantered about for years (and been thrown out) by all the pet industries by elitist breeders that believe that they alone should be the sole breeders of dogs. Any of you guys been to a pedigree dog show, its the biggest bitchfest of elite breeders that completely shun anyone new. Been there, done that, got out because of the nastiness and politics.

Now to an intelligent question...Backyard breeders, same argument, different animal. If you are interested in breeding purebreeds and are just starting out, why not? I would always point out they should do their research, talk to the experts, register with the canine council and keep the animals welfare above profits. With cross breeds, I'm not against it (some beautiful mutts out there) but a high percentage of them are accidents and they probably should have their animals desexed.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 8, 2011)

Ah... I begin to see a link fugawi! I, too, have some experience with pedigree dog people, albeit limited... and limited simply because I loathed the competitive mentality that pervades these get-togethers. I suspect you are making some kind of link between dog breeders and reptile breeders? Well, let me say now that if that's the case, you are way off beam. There is no comparison.

You seem to link 'pro' (your word) reptile breeders with pedigree dog breeders - is that the case? And backyard dog breeders with 'noob' (once again, your word) reptile breeders? Not the same argument at all. I think you have spent too long in the show ring with your dogs, so it's no wonder you have a chip on your shoulder... How did you perform there as an ambassador for the dog-breeding fraternity? Did you get into disputes there too?

The same argument applies to dogs as it does to reptiles - NOBODY should breed anything unless they can guarantee good homes for them, whether they breed backyard mongrels or highly pedigreed whatevers... How many thousands of beautiful dogs are put down in this country every year because people treat them as disposable commodities.



> Any of you guys been to a pedigree dog show, its the biggest bitchfest of elite breeders that completely shun anyone new. Been there, done that, got out because of the nastiness and politics.



I think this tells a story, maybe it's your attitude that needs to change. It seems you're heading the same way with the herp community.

Jamie


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## hypochondroac (Mar 8, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The same argument applies to dogs as it does to reptiles - NOBODY should breed anything unless they can guarantee good homes for them, whether they breed backyard mongrels or highly pedigreed whatevers... How many thousands of beautiful dogs are put down in this country every year because people treat them as disposable commodities.


 
Here here.

Horses, dogs, cats, reptiles. There are crappy over competitive breeders in every single animal related hobby but i don't think the 'old hats' are discouraging new breeders so much as they are discouraging irresponsible breeders and when people don't make any attempt at even the most basic of research before posting questions it becomes fairly obvious. Some breeders start with good wholesome intentions (brains) and the finances to cater for it, others not so much. If you're a new comer and you want some advice, why not google it, buy some books and message a few different breeders before making yourself look like you don't have the mental capacity to tie your own shoe laces let alone have four hundred hatchies rely on you?

I'd like to see bearded hatchlings go for $500 each, then just maybe certain people might actually look into their requirements before buying one from a pet shop down the road on a whim.


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## bk201 (Mar 8, 2011)

uhmmmm can someone point me to a newb's /for sale thread/classified add who is flooding the market? i looked cant find one.




WHO DO ANY OF YOU THINK YOU ARE TELLING PEOPLE THEY CAN OR CANNOT BREED, APS trolls think they are the "herp community"

oh wait sorry my bad your doing it for the "welfare" of the animals, looking forward to seing you for sale adds next year

and uhmmmm half of these "old hats" will the majority of them wont even post on a site like this....so how would they be telling newbies not to breed in the first place...


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## D3pro (Mar 8, 2011)

I just went brain dead from reading half of this threads dribble. I can't see myself keeping snakes if I can't breed them. Not for more money, but purely for the end rewards. As for the so called noobs asking stupid questions... most will grow up and make reptile keeping their own. The smart ones are the ones that follow the advise of a seasoned breeder, do what they do, and then experiment from there.

Anyone who comes into the hobby thinking they are going to make loads of money will quickly kick them self out. Making any kind of income from reptiles is a full time job and takes passion, not just for reptiles, but for the husbandry behind it. (often involves breeding rats and mice to support the hundreds of hungry animals) Your better off sticking to your day job.

All this bitterness, jealousy and back stabbing is for kids. Why we can't get along is beyond me.
It's just a hobby, not a war zone.


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## Wild~Touch (Mar 8, 2011)

It's just a hobby, not a war zone.

That makes sense ... Thank you D3


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## Snakeluvver2 (Mar 8, 2011)

I hate you D3pro where's my knife!


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## Waterrat (Mar 8, 2011)

uhmmmmm, ahhhhh what? sorry my bad what? "old hats" Uhmm, haaaa. WHO DO ANY OF YOU THINK YOU ARE TELLING PEOPLE . uhmmmm, haaaa

Leave it till the morning, you're very tired.... and you are only 20 years old.

We could help each other big way if it wasn't for the huge chips on some people's shoulders. They must be walking lopsided. 11 pages is a long read but taking shortcuts makes some people's posts a joke.


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## bk201 (Mar 8, 2011)

you missed out on my spelling.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 8, 2011)

D3pro said:


> I just went brain dead from reading half of this threads dribble. I can't see myself keeping snakes if I can't breed them. Not for more money, but purely for the end rewards. As for the so called noobs asking stupid questions... most will grow up and make reptile keeping their own. The smart ones are the ones that follow the advise of a seasoned breeder, do what they do, and then experiment from there.
> 
> Anyone who comes into the hobby thinking they are going to make loads of money will quickly kick them self out. Making any kind of income from reptiles is a full time job and takes passion, not just for reptiles, but for the husbandry behind it. (often involves breeding rats and mice to support the hundreds of hungry animals) Your better off sticking to your day job.
> 
> ...


 I cant be bothered typing as its my "Glass of red" time as Michael puts it lol, so il just agree with D3.


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## Wookie (Mar 8, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Are you really 44 years of age?


 
Hahahahahahhahahahah!


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## The Reptile Outlet (Mar 9, 2011)

Wow...... I've just given myself a headache reading all this....... I have to comment though.

Because of the business I'm in, I personally chat with a lot of people in the hobby every day, and in my opinion, the more experienced breeder certainly tries to help the newcomer. In some instances they even learn something from the newer person too. Heck we were all new to breeding reptiles ourselves once and can remember the excitement of this, (along with the sleepless nights). I would like to think though that the advice that the more experienced breeder is offering is listened to, whether it's what we want to hear or not. They've been there, done that, and because of their experience they can quite often see if there are pitfalls ahead. We need to listen to them, and then make our own decision. 

I have a few years life experience here, and I know from personal experience that if I am trying to learn something new, that it pays to listen to advice from those who have been there before me. I listen to them, and then make a decision based on the facts as to how to proceed, no matter what the subject is. 

In our hobby, I believe that in most instances the more experienced breeders are offering sound, sensible advice, and need to be listened to but even more importantly, given the respect they deserve. If we don't personally agree with what they say, that's our choice, we can do whatever we want to do. However, they are the ones who have done the hard yards and are leading the way. They've earned and deserve our respect. 

Cheers
Joy


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## cris (Mar 9, 2011)

I really think everyone should pump them out as quick as possible so they can replace rodents as feeders for reptiles that normally eat reptiles. Why mess around weaning them onto friendly soical animals like rats when you can just use surplus reptiles? (provided it becomes legal of course)

The best way to end the stupid debates is to make them finacially worthless through good supply so only those with a genuine interest keep them and government regulation becomes redundant for 95% or more species.


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## waruikazi (Mar 9, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Now to an intelligent question...Backyard breeders, same argument, different animal. If you are interested in breeding purebreeds and are just starting out, why not? I would always point out they should do their research, talk to the experts, register with the canine council and keep the animals welfare above profits. With cross breeds, I'm not against it (some beautiful mutts out there) but a high percentage of them are accidents and they probably should have their animals desexed.



So you see no problem with it so long as it is done properly... as long as they do their research, look after their animals and offspring etc?


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 9, 2011)

> government regulation becomes redundant for 95% or more species.



Now there's something worth banding together about... The amount of pointless paperwork generated by keepers of the most common species is astronomical. And what purpose does it serve? It keeps government departments well staffed (not well enough in NSW!) doing a job that serves no purpose either.

I think some of the terms used to describe experienced breeders here are quite amusing... 'pros', 'old hats'... where do they come from?

Jamie


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## waruikazi (Mar 9, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Talk about mud slinging....at this stage I have not said a nasty word about a single person but in return I have had my age questioned, my intelligence questioned and even my own personal experience with herps questioned by the very people who wrote those arguments. Those same old arguments that have been bantered about for years (and been thrown out) by all the pet industries by elitist breeders that believe that they alone should be the sole breeders of dogs. Any of you guys been to a pedigree dog show, its the biggest bitchfest of elite breeders that completely shun anyone new. Been there, done that, got out because of the nastiness and politics.



Can you just refresh our memories as to who made those arguments?


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## Wookie (Mar 9, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I think some of the terms used to describe experienced breeders here are quite amusing... 'pros', 'old hats'... where do they come from?
> 
> Jamie


 
Old hat - experienced, not necessarily old


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## hugsta (Mar 9, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Now there's something worth banding together about... The amount of pointless paperwork generated by keepers of the most common species is astronomical. And what purpose does it serve? It keeps government departments well staffed (not well enough in NSW!) doing a job that serves no purpose either.
> 
> I think some of the terms used to describe experienced breeders here are quite amusing... 'pros', 'old hats'... where do they come from?
> 
> Jamie


 
But I just got a new hat...

And just because someone has kept a snake for 10 or 15 years, it deos not make them experienced either. I would not call anyone that has kept 1 or 2 animals for that period of time experienced at all.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 9, 2011)

What would qualify as "experienced"?


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## Waterrat (Mar 9, 2011)

Neither would I hugsta but I don't know anyone who kept 1 or 2 animals for 15 years. The 'contagious herp infection' either gets you and go for more or it doesn't get you and you fall out very early.


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## saximus (Mar 9, 2011)

hugsta said:


> But I just got a new hat...
> 
> And just because someone has kept a snake for 10 or 15 years, it deos not make them experienced either. I would not call anyone that has kept 1 or 2 animals for that period of time experienced at all.


 I remember a thread/debate about that a little while. People were arguing that until you've owned a few animals and have had to deal with problem eaters, health issues etc you aren't experienced


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## hugsta (Mar 9, 2011)

saximus said:


> I remember a thread/debate about that a little while. People were arguing that until you've owned a few animals and have had to deal with problem eaters, health issues etc you aren't experienced


 
Exactly, if you buy one snake, let say a maccie for arguments sake, and it feeds well from the day you get it, what experience will get from it? The experience of keeping, yes, that's nice, but you can get that after a few weeks. Oh you probably also wonder why it has stopped feeding when it gets cold. But that's about it. Maybe a few vet checks but nothing major really. Compare that to someone that has 5 or 10 breeding females, or many more for that much, that they breed every year, that has done field trips, belongs to a herp society, read lots of books etc etc. Maybe been a member of WIRES or Sydney Wildlife and seen/handled and rehabilited many sick and injured reptiles..... All these things add to ones experiences in keeping/ breeding and understanding reptiles. Much more so than someone that has a pet mac for 20 years.


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## Red-Ink (Mar 9, 2011)

hugsta said:


> Exactly, if you buy one snake, let say a maccie for arguments sake, and it feeds well from the day you get it, what experience will get from it? The experience of keeping, yes, that's nice, but you can get that after a few weeks. Oh you probably also wonder why it has stopped feeding when it gets cold. But that's about it. Maybe a few vet checks but nothing major really. *Compare that to someone that has 5 or 10 breeding females, or many more for that much, that they breed every year*, that has done field trips, belongs to a herp society, read lots of books etc etc. Maybe been a member of WIRES or Sydney Wildlife and seen/handled and rehabilited many sick and injured reptiles..... All these things add to ones experiences in keeping/ *breeding* and understanding reptiles. Much more so than someone that has a pet mac for 20 years.


 
I don't want to keep going around and around with this or seem like I'm starting all over but there's some inconsistency to the responses in the theme of this original debate.......

The other stuff, belonging to a club/society, field trips, books, research, handling and rehabilitation of sick and injured animals can be easily done by an enthusiastic newbie... the breeding, well how are they going to do that if their discouraged. Timeline wise all the other stuff (apart from breeding) can probably be knocked off by somebody in one or two years (a year even) if they have the get up and go...

I'm not trying to start things up again... just seeking clarification...


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 9, 2011)

We need to acknowledge that there are newcomers... and there are newcomers. I know a few kids/adults who are new to reptiles who have an attitude which would allow them to breed their animals the year they got them. They are the ones who absorb information like sponges, who seek as much info and advice as they can at every opportunity, and who are virtually obsessed with the subjects of their interest. They are the ones who listen to everything that's being said, and are able to differentiate between the relative values of what people tell them. These are the ones I encourage because they are a pleasure to spend time with, and I may well learn something from their experiences.

They are not the ones who set out at the start with pugnacious attitudes, who say I'll do what I damned well like whenever I damned well want to, and who decide to breed their animals on a week old whim, and who object strongly when it is suggested they put a bit of thought into their project before embarking on it. It may be a broad generalisation, but in my opinion these sorts of people usually have poor attitudes to animals, and consider their actions to be much more important than the consequences of their actions.

Eventually, if the herp community itself doesn't take a roll in mentoring newcomers and exerting some sort of self-control , the choices to 'do what we please' will be taken out of our hands. I would hate to see that happen, because we'll end up with a one-size-fits-all system where all of us are constrained in what we can do because of the thoughtless actions of a few.

Jamie


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## Red-Ink (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks Jamie....

We would have saved 12 pages of forum space if you got to post that on the first page.....


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## Dannyboi (Mar 9, 2011)

Actually Jamie that is great. Much better than some of the stuff said on this thread.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 11, 2011)

I will not say much, just the following!

YouTube - bloodbankdragons's Channel

Don't stop watching because they are talking about ball pythons, it is very applicable to this thread!


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## Snakeluvver2 (Mar 11, 2011)

As per usual Jamie, nicely said. 



> We need to acknowledge that there are newcomers... and there are newcomers. I know a few kids/adults who are new to reptiles who have an attitude which would allow them to breed their animals the year they got them. They are the ones who absorb information like sponges, who seek as much info and advice as they can at every opportunity, and who are virtually obsessed with the subjects of their interest. They are the ones who listen to everything that's being said, and are able to differentiate between the relative values of what people tell them. These are the ones I encourage because they are a pleasure to spend time with, and I may well learn something from their experiences.
> 
> They are not the ones who set out at the start with pugnacious attitudes, who say I'll do what I damned well like whenever I damned well want to, and who decide to breed their animals on a week old whim, and who object strongly when it is suggested they put a bit of thought into their project before embarking on it. It may be a broad generalisation, but in my opinion these sorts of people usually have poor attitudes to animals, and consider their actions to be much more important than the consequences of their actions.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the advice you have given!


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 11, 2011)

I guess all I'm trying to say is that 'we're not alone...'. Reptile keepers already verge on being persecuted by bureaucratic overmanagement in most parts of Australia, and adding the welfare of unwanted animals to the arguments about why we need to be more controlled by bureaucracy won't help. Has nothing to do with money or profits or trespassing on the sacred ground of 'old hat' (lol) breeders. In an ideal world, people should be able to breed what they like, but just as with the uncontrolled breeding of cats & dogs, there are always consequences down the line.

I have bred GTPs, I love the species (even though they won't set the world alight with their activity levels!) and I enjoy having them. I would hope that anyone with an interest in breeding them would feel confident about seeking advice from me, whether their animals came from me or not. There's always a very good chance that I could learn from someone else's experiences as well. In the long-run, keeping secrets does no one any good...

Jamie


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## cement (Mar 11, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> I don't want to keep going around and around with this or seem like I'm starting all over but there's some inconsistency to the responses in the theme of this original debate.......
> 
> The other stuff, belonging to a club/society, field trips, books, research, handling and rehabilitation of sick and injured animals can be easily done by an enthusiastic newbie... the breeding, well how are they going to do that if their discouraged. Timeline wise all the other stuff (apart from breeding) can probably be knocked off by somebody in one or two years (a year even) if they have the get up and go...
> 
> I'm not trying to start things up again... just seeking clarification...



Well seeing as you are looking for clarification.... even with a good quantity of get up and go, one years efforts is barely going to scratch the surface. Even by participation in all the above listed herp activities, one or two years is barely crawling before walking. Newcomers to the hobby that are humble about their experience levels will ALWAYS receive helpful advice from experienced herpers. I find _most_ people who have doing herps for a long time are very genuine and down to earth people. 

If you want to breed snakes then breed them. But breeding snakes isn't rocket science and really no big deal.


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## cris (Mar 11, 2011)

I can go to a pet shop and buy platies or swordtails(now establislished ecological pests?), why should common native reptiles that are ecologically insignificant be restiricted? Simple answer is no reason. Im not against petshops selling established pests (especially cats with not permit) but the government stance on herps is something only Eric Cartman cound describe :lol:

Why The Friggin over reglation?


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## Red-Ink (Mar 11, 2011)

cement said:


> Well seeing as you are looking for clarification.... even with a good quantity of get up and go, one years efforts is barely going to scratch the surface. Even by participation in all the above listed herp activities, one or two years is barely crawling before walking. Newcomers to the hobby that are humble about their experience levels will ALWAYS receive helpful advice from experienced herpers. I find _most_ people who have doing herps for a long time are very genuine and down to earth people.
> 
> If you want to breed snakes then breed them. But breeding snakes isn't rocket science and really no big deal.


 
Thanks for that cement... I guess it comes down to the reasoning that we all just have different levels and standards for experience...


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## hugsta (Mar 11, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Thanks Jamie....
> 
> We would have saved 12 pages of forum space if you got to post that on the first page.....


 
But where is the fun in that..???


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 12, 2011)

I do have spooky powers... but I've never been able to anticipate discussion twists & turns 12 pages in advance lol! 

J


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## Snake_Whisperer (Mar 12, 2011)

Wow. Over a cuppa with a "big name breeder" recently, we were discussing the state of the hobby, and the lack of manners and common courtesy. He was not far off the mark judging by the quality of posts in this thread. As a "noob" myself, I had no idea that this "old hat" has been secretly feeding me misleading information to actually detract from my learning! It is clear now that I should stick to learning from the internet as it is the only way to be sure that I receive intelligent, well thought out and presented information. Thank you internet!


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## Cockney_Red (Mar 12, 2011)

Good thread, and as always, the "OLD HATS" fit on my head very comfortably. This hobby would not exist without them...respect as always, goes out you old farts....


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## Wookie (Mar 12, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Wow. Over a cuppa with a "big name breeder" recently, we were discussing the state of the hobby, and the lack of manners and common courtesy. He was not far off the mark judging by the quality of posts in this thread.


 
I am sure that the content of APS isn't indicative of the hobby. ALL keepers I have met/worked with/purchased from have been great.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Mar 12, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> I am sure that the content of APS isn't indicative of the hobby. ALL keepers I have met/worked with/purchased from have been great.



You've got that spot on BM. I have found that the "live" experience is nothing at all like the bickering you see on the internet. All of the horrible "old timers" have been nothing but helpful to me.


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## cris (Mar 13, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> View attachment 190257



The stergeon is an exotic fish :lol:


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## cwtiger (Mar 13, 2011)

It doesn't matter what you want to breed there is never a sure thing that you will make money. All offspring cost money to raise, house until they can go to potential new owners. I feel that people have a right to breed if they want to. I agree that research should be done and they should know what to expect and be prepared to have some hatchlings 12months later. As for the old hats and their prized snakes again it is the way of the times that things aren't worth as much as when they bought them. To think that any animal will fetch what you paid for the parent is being ignorant. I also know breeders who complain that they paid the high price for their GTP or their ALBINO"S and now they are selling for minimal yet they again are sitting on 30plus new hatchlings of each breed that they continue to breed each year. I have found a great deal of joy in purchasing a hatchling watching it grow and mature raising it to breeding age breeding with it and having great success in the egg laying letting nature take it's course and allow Mum to incubate then watch all said eggs hatch, shed, feed and go on to new homes with very excited new owners the things that I and my children have learnt is priceless and will be worth all the old hats thinking and saying that I have helped flood the market. But I am a strong believer that you need to know about your snake and be prepared fully before taking the plunge. The above is just my opinion.


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 13, 2011)

HAHA, All the way back to the beginning again.


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## Waterrat (Mar 13, 2011)

cwtiger, there are few things in your post that I would like to comment on. First of all, who are the breeders that spent lots of money on their stock are complain now? Could you clarify? I am in contact with many of them but I don't hear any complaints. In my opinion, this is a rumour that some "Johny came lately" made up and successfully spread it around. Please PM me at least some names of those who complain. Secondly, the old hats are not flooding the market, they choose carefully what to breed and what not, and in what numbers. At least that's my observation. You are right that it's everybody's right to breed but it's also everybody's responsibility to take care of the consequences i.e. what to do with the babies. 
RIGHTS ALWAYS COME WITH RESPONSIBILITIES.


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## Southern_Forest_Drag (Mar 13, 2011)

this thread hurt my head.


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## Waterrat (Mar 13, 2011)

Take a panadol and don't come back here again.


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## Owzi (Mar 14, 2011)

Southern_Forest_Drag said:


> this thread hurt my head.


 
Agreed. Tough to know if to comment.

One thing I can't quite get my head around is that many/most of the so called "big name breeders" were pioneers of a particular animal (e.g. Albino Darwins, Albino Olives, Greens, Roughies) and the hobby then holds these particular people on a pedestal (wrightly or wrongly) & in turn their breeding seems to carry more weight than "average joe herp keeper". I wonder if "average joe herp keeper" could have acheived the same breeding success with these rarer animals if given the chance? Then their breedings of other animals been more respected? That sounds like I'm disrespecting the seasoned herpers that have paved the way for me but its not my intention, I have plenty of respect for those "old hats" , especially those that have published papers on their experiances with their animals. I'm just throwing out some food for thought.

In my opinion new people to herp should concentrate on being the best "keeper" they can be. After reaserching all you can & if you feel you have the space to keep all your hatchies for a year or more, then consider breeding. I was a keeper of pythons for 7 or 8 years before breeding.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> c. First of all, who are the breeders that spent lots of money on their stock are complain now? Could you clarify? I am in contact with many of them but I don't hear any complaints. In my opinion, this is a rumour that some "Johny came lately" made up and successfully spread it around. Please PM me at least some names of those who complain. .


 So you are saying that there arent breeders out there who are not happy with the fact the animals they hoped to breed and make some money aren't worth half as much now?


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## Colin (Mar 14, 2011)

Owzi said:


> In my opinion new people to herp should concentrate on being the best "keeper" they can be. After reaserching all you can & if you feel you have the space to keep all your hatchies for a year or more, then consider breeding.


 
good comment.. I think people should concern themselves with what they are personally doing instead of worrying about the next person. and should not knock people with more or less experience than themselves.. we're all in this hobby with a common interest for reptiles and the hobby would be better off if everyone tried to help each other and showed more tolerance to others instead of the infighting we seem to see a lot of these days.

people should buy animals on their merits at the time instead of worrying about what the price will be in a year or two.. enjoy the animals you have and forget the dollars.. the pleasure and enjoyment I get from my animals is worth much more than the dollars I've paid for them.


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## Waterrat (Mar 14, 2011)

Geckoman said:


> So you are saying that there arent breeders out there who are not happy with the fact the animals they hoped to breed and make some money aren't worth half as much now?



Tell me who they are. Of course there is an element of disappointment but don't hear anyone complaining...... and I know quite a few people who paid big bucks for their snakes, they call it investment. They will still get there money back (and so they should) just not so fast and they seem content with it. Whenever I ask to name those who complain (PM, privately) there is a silence - do you know anyone in particular?


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## hugsta (Mar 14, 2011)

Colin said:


> people should buy animals on their merits at the time instead of worrying about what the price will be in a year or two.. enjoy the animals you have and forget the dollars.. the pleasure and enjoyment I get from my animals is worth much more than the dollars I've paid for them.


 
Totally agree Colin, I have helped more newbies than I care to count and have ALWAYS given then info to the best of my knowledge, When I was wholesaling reptile products into pet shops over a 3 yr period I would have helped at least one person a day with absolutely no benefit to myself. I do it because I love to help people with any problems they may have. It is jsut a shame when you hear newbies say 'whats the best setup for a a pair of adult bredli I just bough. I want to breed them cause they are worth $250 ea and they can have a clutch of 40+ hatchies'....I still give them advice, but also warn them of the time involved in setting up, caring for and disposing of the hatchies. Most then think twice about it.


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## Klaery (Mar 14, 2011)

I have heard complaints in 1 on 1 conversations but these were private and I don't wish to spread their comments further then initially intended. To say nobody is complaining seems a bit much.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Tell me who they are. Of course there is an element of disappointment but don't hear anyone complaining...... and I know quite a few people who paid big bucks for their snakes, they call it investment. They will still get there money back (and so they should) just not so fast and they seem content with it. Whenever I ask to name those who complain (PM, privately) there is a silence - do you know anyone in particular?


 


danielk said:


> I have heard complaints in 1 on 1 conversations but these were private and I don't wish to spread their comments further then initially intended. To say nobody is complaining seems a bit much.


 This is exactly what I have experienced


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## shortstuff61 (Mar 14, 2011)

hugsta said:


> It is jsut a shame when you hear newbies say 'whats the best setup for a a pair of adult bredli I just bough. I want to breed them cause they are worth $250 ea and they can have a clutch of 40+ hatchies'....



Hugsta, I agree. I have personally met people that will take it one further and look to get a male and 2, 3 or 4 females and do the same for more than one species in a hope to mass produce (affordable, readily available species) and make money. This is the exact attitude I was trying to divert in a thread from the other week, however I did use a less than perfect species as an example, which seemed to detract from my point.


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## Perko (Mar 14, 2011)

Amen!!!



Colin said:


> good comment.. I think people should concern themselves with what they are personally doing instead of worrying about the next person. and should not knock people with more or less experience than themselves.. we're all in this hobby with a common interest for reptiles and the hobby would be better off if everyone tried to help each other and showed more tolerance to others instead of the infighting we seem to see a lot of these days.


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## Virides (Mar 14, 2011)

hugsta said:


> It is jsut a shame when you hear newbies say 'whats the best setup for a a pair of adult bredli I just bough. I want to breed them cause they are worth $250 ea and they can have a clutch of 40+ hatchies'....I still give them advice, but also warn them of the time involved in setting up, caring for and disposing of the hatchies. Most then think twice about it.


 
The funny thing is, you buy the lower end (price wise) in the market and expect to make a motsa on it, but if everyone else has the same idea, you end up just trying to sell 50 of ur lower end with the other 1000 lower end animals. This would happen with all price brackets more or less. 

I am not sure that there would be people just buying snakes for the sake of having another snake if all they could choose from were just bredli.

$250 per snake does not equal $250 per hatchy as you would expect...

When I came into this hobby I thought it was all about the snakes and while that is true, it would seem some, just want to exploit their pets. Reputable breeders and the ones who want to help the hobby with quality animals and research into making the whole experience better are the ones I commend. 

Each to their own, just find it unfortunate.


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## Umbral (Mar 18, 2011)

I have great news, Im going to try and breed some of my herps this season, I haven't bred them before and am looking foreward to it. I'm not sure the nuns breeding at home deserve such bad press. I for one look after my pythons well ie my male costal has a 6x3x4 enclosure with a warm and cool hide he has a hot and a cooler side of the enclosure which is cleaned weekly. How many big breeders offer an enclosure like that? I already have homes for four offspring (should I manage to get them) and if I can't sell the rest Ill house them well and look after them so IMO there are good and bad people on each side of the scale (I have 6 pythons all bought from big breeders and have had a most pleasurable time with them, very helpful and friendly) Get off your high horses and stop putting everyone in one basket.


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## AUSHERP (Mar 18, 2011)

haha 4 OFFSPRING! you're a little over prepared don't you think? And you offer a thermal gradient IN THE ENCLOSURE?!?!?!?! wow I have never seen this done before!!!


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## saximus (Mar 18, 2011)

lol Umbral did you actually read this whole thread?


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## AUSHERP (Mar 18, 2011)

At first I thought it was a joke, but no Umbral was serious.......


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## saximus (Mar 18, 2011)

AUSHERP said:


> At first I thought it was a joke, but no Umbral was serious.......


 As a heart attack I fear. 
On a side note I didn't know many Nuns were amateur snake breeders. Guess you learn something every day


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## Colin (Mar 18, 2011)

give him a break please guys.. making fun of someone else doesnt make you a better reptile keeper..


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Mar 18, 2011)

Amen!!! Twice!!!


colin said:


> good comment.. I think people should concern themselves with what they are personally doing instead of worrying about the next person. And should not knock people with more or less experience than themselves.. We're all in this hobby with a common interest for reptiles and the hobby would be better off if everyone tried to help each other and showed more tolerance to others instead of the infighting we seem to see a lot of these days.
> 
> People should buy animals on their merits at the time instead of worrying about what the price will be in a year or two.. Enjoy the animals you have and forget the dollars.. The pleasure and enjoyment i get from my animals is worth much more than the dollars i've paid for them.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Mar 20, 2011)

Colin said:


> give him a break please guys.. making fun of someone else doesnt make you a better reptile keeper..



Funny thing is Colin, these are the same dudes bitching about "big breeders" being bell ends! I feel it's the old "Respect my 5 months experience" attitude that creates the worst of the crap attitudes you find in this hobby. Folks need to "pull their heads in" and enjoy their hobby for what it is to them, and spread that joy around. A bit optimistic I know, but it's how I do it.


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## beeman (Mar 20, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Funny thing is Colin, these are the same dudes bitching about "big breeders" being bell ends! I feel it's the old "Respect my 5 months experience" attitude that creates the worst of the crap attitudes you find in this hobby. Folks need to "pull their heads in" and enjoy their hobby for what it is to them, and spread that joy around. A bit optimistic I know, but it's how I do it.


 
Agreed100%


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## Colin (Mar 20, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Folks need to "pull their heads in" and enjoy their hobby for what it is to them, and spread that joy around. A bit optimistic I know, but it's how I do it.



I agree Aaron.. all Im saying is that more experienced keepers shouldn't make fun of inexperienced keepers and should try to encourage and help them, and inexperienced keepers should show a little more respect for the more experienced people and maybe listen and learn from their advice to improve their husbandry, keeping and breeding skills.. I think fighting and name calling between ourselves is counterproductive to the hobby. I'd just like to see everyone get on a little bit better.. maybe I'm a bit optimostic too


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## dale1988 (Mar 20, 2011)

i agree colin its meant to be a hobby and meant to be fun not all keepers do want to breed i myself would like to (1 day in the very far future) when i feel i have learnt enough about my snakes but even if i wasnt goign to breed them id still be happy just keeping them it probably sounds funny but i enjoy the company and chill out time handling them when i want a break from the missus and the young fella


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## wranga (Mar 20, 2011)

Umbral said:


> I have great news, Im going to try and breed some of my herps this season, I haven't bred them before and am looking foreward to it. I'm not sure the nuns breeding at home deserve such bad press. I for one look after my pythons well ie my male costal has a 6x3x4 enclosure with a warm and cool hide he has a hot and a cooler side of the enclosure which is cleaned weekly. How many big breeders offer an enclosure like that? I already have homes for four offspring (should I manage to get them) and if I can't sell the rest Ill house them well and look after them so IMO there are good and bad people on each side of the scale (I have 6 pythons all bought from big breeders and have had a most pleasurable time with them, very helpful and friendly) Get off your high horses and stop putting everyone in one basket.




wow. why do you need to clean your snakes enclosure weekly? glad you can rehome 4 hatchies should you be lucky enough to breed them. but do you have any idea of just how many you may breed? do you have an endless supply of food or the funds to buy the food that you will need to feed maybe 20 or more hatchies while you find new homes for them? dont forget they grow and you will need to upsize tubs and have to room to keep them while finding new homes for them. good luck with your dreams


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## dale1988 (Mar 20, 2011)

i clean mine weekly sometimes less than weekly...


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 20, 2011)

Does 'less than weekly' mean 'more than weekly'? That's the big question...

J


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## Wookie (Mar 20, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Does 'less than weekly' mean 'more than weekly'? That's the big question...
> 
> J


 
I definitely do less frequently than weekly. Mine don't even **** that often


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## Umbral (Mar 21, 2011)

wranga said:


> wow. why do you need to clean your snakes enclosure weekly? glad you can rehome 4 hatchies should you be lucky enough to breed them. but do you have any idea of just how many you may breed? do you have an endless supply of food or the funds to buy the food that you will need to feed maybe 20 or more hatchies while you find new homes for them? dont forget they grow and you will need to upsize tubs and have to room to keep them while finding new homes for them. good luck with your dreams


 
Yes I have homes for four of them and no I doubt I'll be getting more than 20 eggs as they are woma's


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## CodeRed (Mar 21, 2011)

Umbral said:


> Yes I have homes for four of them and no I doubt I'll be getting more than 20 eggs as they are woma's


 
wow I'd like to see a woma that can produce 20 eggs in one clutch


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 21, 2011)

Actually Gordo, I'm with CR here... a clutch of 20+ eggs would be pretty rare for Womas in my experience (never bred them, but lots of friends have and they seem to clutch around the 8-12 mark most of the time.)

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Mar 21, 2011)

3 heros now.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm one Michael, who are the other two??? 

J


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## waruikazi (Mar 21, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Actually Gordo, I'm with CR here... a clutch of 20+ eggs would be pretty rare for Womas in my experience (never bred them, but lots of friends have and they seem to clutch around the 8-12 mark most of the time.)
> 
> Jamie


 
Jamie, Greer in 'The Biology and Evolution of Australian Snakes' lists two clutches well in the 20's from womas and nearly 20 clutches in the high teens. Like i say to a lot of people, just because you haven't observed something yourself doesn't mean it hasn't or wont happen, we all know it is pretty rare for carpets to clutch into the 40's but they do it.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 21, 2011)

> no I doubt I'll be getting more than 20 eggs as they are woma's



Gordo, I think the certainty implied in this statement indicates a large degree of optimism, which in turn reflects a lack of experience...

As I pointed out, I've never bred them, but know lots who have, and I've never known a clutch of 20. Just out of interest, those who breed Womas (and there must be heaps here) - I'd be very interested to hear what you would consider an average clutch for this species, and if you could routinely expect clutches of high teens into the 20s?

J


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## waruikazi (Mar 21, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gordo, I think the certainty implied in this statement indicates a large degree of optimism, which in turn reflects a lack of experience...
> 
> As I pointed out, I've never bred them, but know lots who have, and I've never known a clutch of 20. Just out of interest, those who breed Womas (and there must be heaps here) - I'd be very interested to hear what you would consider an average clutch for this species, and if you could routinely expect clutches of high teens into the 20s?
> 
> J


 
Dammit Jamie that wasn't the point lol! I was having a stab at the hero who was needlessly having a go at the noob! All Noobs have a lot of misguided optimism, but that is what makes them fun.


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## cement (Mar 21, 2011)

Depending on the locality the SA would probably have a bigger average than other smaller forms. It is true there have been some large clutches, I have found record of a 30 egg clutch, and Joe Bredl had a SA lay 28. These were old and large animals. I think it is safe to say that a first time breeding animal will not produce over 20 eggs, and averages given by Neil Sonnerman reports on a 14 egg (shine), 11 egg (Sonnerman) and 14 egg (Oliver). 

"Yes I have homes for four of them and no I doubt I'll be getting more than 20 eggs as they are woma's"

Read this again slowly, and add punctuation , and you may read it differently to how it comes across at first.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 21, 2011)

Hey Gordo, I'm not a noob and I've STILL got misguided optimism!!! It's all becoming too complicated for me - I don't know who's stabbing who anymore! But no matter how I read it cement, I can't come to any conclusion other than because it's a Woma, *I'll no doubt be getting more than 20 eggs*...


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## GSXR_Boy (Mar 21, 2011)

Read it again properly, and, like cement said, add some puncuation and put back in the "I" you took out.

As in Know, i doubt........


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## cement (Mar 21, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Hey Gordo, I'm not a noob and I've STILL got misguided optimism!!! It's all becoming too complicated for me - I don't know who's stabbing who anymore! But no matter how I read it cement, I can't come to any conclusion other than because it's a Woma, *I'll no doubt be getting more than 20 eggs*...



Might be time for glasses mate!
Read it again.... There is an important letter between the words NO and DOUBT.
He doubts that he will get more then 20 eggs.


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 21, 2011)

OOPS... my bad (eyesight)!!! Now that's a poor reflection on my interpretive abilities! And in fact, I couldn't be bothered getting my reading glasses from the bedroom earlier today...

So... I do deserve a smack in the chops for my mistake Umbral. My sincerest apologies matey!!!

J


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## killimike (Mar 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Tatz what u get when u dont rite proply. but u now how 2 breed womas.


 
Sorry Michael, you spelled something wrong there... In this form of expression, 'know' is written 'no', for maximum bogan effect 

Yeah, the person posting about the womas could help by writing with punctuation etc, but they did say that they *don't* think they will get more than twenty eggs. But the discussion from the misreading has been fun to read! Cheers guys.


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## Colin (Mar 21, 2011)

Umbral said:


> Yes I have homes for four of them. and no, I doubt I'll be getting more than 20 eggs as they are woma's





cement said:


> "Yes I have homes for four of them and no I doubt I'll be getting more than 20 eggs as they are woma's"
> 
> Read this again slowly, and add punctuation , and you may read it differently to how it comes across at first.



I agree with cement.. its > "and no (comma) I doubt I'll be getting more than 20 eggs as they are woma's"  which implies to me he's saying he doubts he will get more than 20 eggs because they are womas.

like I asked a few pages ago.. give the kid a break please.. thank you.


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