# Albino blackheads (new pictures)



## PietNuijten (Jun 1, 2005)

Hello,
I'm the breeder from the albino blackheads.
I was a very lucky men because it is the second pythonmorph I breed (in 4 years).
The first it was the granite carpetpython and last week I breed two albino blackheadpythons.
From the eight eggs there were 2 albino's and 6 normals.













Best regards,

Piet and Monika Nuijten
The Netherlands


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## Skorpious (Jun 1, 2005)

I like your Granites Piet, do you have pictures of the orginal parents?


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## BROWNS (Jun 1, 2005)

Simply awesome...so you happened to have a pair of hets without knowing it,i wonder where the gene originated from,very interesting!!!I'd love to see a pic of the parents to the granite carpet,i'd love to put a high yellow jungle across that .Is the granite morph an inheerited trait and if so what type?Recessive,dominat,co dominant etc?


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## improvius (Jun 1, 2005)

Freakin' sweet!

-Imp


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2005)

Browns, what are you saying..................hybrids.....................ahhhhhhh. Just kidding, I love em. Amzing isn't it, a Dutch breeder manages to get a couple of albinos and we have none with all the Blackheads bred here, oh well maybe it will be me next year


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2005)

*Albino blackheads(new pictures)*

Welcome,and thanks for posting Piet, Amazing!!!!


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## Stevo (Jun 1, 2005)

*RE: Albino blackheads(new pictures)*

Wow, I personally love Bhp's but the albino ones imo look ten times better and i want some.


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## herptrader (Jun 1, 2005)

*Re: RE: Albino blackheads(new pictures)*



Stevo said:


> Wow, I personally love Bhp's but the albino ones imo look ten times better and i want some.



I think I am with you Stevo. I remember how long it took me to get to like the look of regular black heads. It was not until saw one first hand with its ultra shiny "patent leather" look head that I fell in love with them. Now they are one of my favourites.

To me the white headed version is just as striking in much the same sort of way and I love the red banding. It would be good to see them moving because that is when the banding starts to shimmer and really stand out.


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## Jonathon (Jun 1, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Albino blackheads(new pictures)*

Lovely animals! They really take the meaning out of the name


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## NCHERPS (Jun 1, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Albino blackheads(new pictures)*

Piet,
Big Congrats! Absolutely amazing snakes.
Thanks for posting on here, I hope that you will consider posting regularly, as I am sure we would all like your input.

Neil


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## Gabe (Jun 1, 2005)

Congrats Piet! What a great sight it would have been seeing those two pop out! Please keep us updated on their progress


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## PietNuijten (Jun 2, 2005)

Gabe said:


> Congrats Piet! What a great sight it would have been seeing those two pop out! Please keep us updated on their progress


Thanks everyone for all your nice E-mails.
The possible hets are also nice and different then the normals.
On their head they have a little bit white and the end of their tongue is also white.
Can someone tell me if this is normal with the tongue because the albino's have a pink tongue with at the end white and the parent have a normal black tongue.
By the way the granite carpets are from a normal irian Jaya carpet.

Piet and Monika








www.moreliagranites.com


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## viandy (Jun 10, 2005)

*White on tongue? May well be a marker!*

First -- CONGRATULATIONS!! Those are incredible looking snakes. Before I got to this post about the white tongue I thought the "normal" siblings were very striking, a lighter background than normally seen, even on very nice western blackheads. 
I've attached a photo of a hatchling from a few years ago, you can see its all black tongue. Hard to think the white tip is just a chance occurrence, but only breeding will prove it out.
I saw the granite carpets that Brian Sharp obtained from you. And now albino blackheads -- what will you pop out next year?!?!
Cordially,
Andy Via
U.S.A.


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## BROWNS (Jun 10, 2005)

*RE: White on tongue? May well be a marker!*

Still have my doubts that these occured by pure fluke,all albinos originate from a wild caught specimen so where's the albino that produced the hets to produce these?Obviously nobody would admit to having an albino bhp but the chances of one being found or bred here in Australia are far more than in the US,and before people say inbreeding with a limiteed gene pool causes mutations such as albinos which i highly doubt.Other pattern mutations and mutants with 2 heads etc i'm guessing would be the result of continous inbreeding if done long enough although have never heard of line breeding causing mutations.If this were the case, with the very limited gene pool the Carpets basically all originate from in the US etc and the amount of crossing they do that if anyone was going to breed albinos by chance without knowing it would happen with many years of inbreeding and crossing which has been done 1000 times over with carpets overseas and all sorts of mutations have occured but still never an albino.

Sorry,i just find it hard to swallow the fact that these just happened to pop up out of the blue and i did provide a better arguement that made more sense in another thread regarding these guys which seems very much more likely to be the case than a fluke hatching from a pair of unknown hets.Just my opinion and nobody i doubt will come up with proof otherwise.

By the way they are absolutely stunning and can't wait to see how they colour up and what other forms of albinism they produce.Did you get a pair of albinos?If not i guess it's simple to raise all the offspring to breeding age and that would produce quite a few albinos, hets etc Also interesting that the normals aren't quite normal which may be another trait as i doubt that albinism is the cause for them being different which would mean some sort of co dominant gene.It all starts getting pretty technical especially if crossing with other inherited traits which if the genetics of the trait are known the offspring should be quite predictable in number and certain inherited traits depending on which generation.

Wow man,think i just confused myself for the rest of the day,too early for this anyway :?


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## dobermanmick (Jun 10, 2005)

*RE: White on tongue? May well be a marker!*

I am not sure about the Blackheads but i love the Granites !


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## Hickson (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: RE: White on tongue? May well be a marker!*



BROWNS said:


> Wow man,think i just confused myself for the rest of the day,too early for this anyway :?



Yup, you confused me too. 

And I understand genetics. :shock:



Hix


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2005)

Someone in australia has or had an albino bhp no doubt,prohibition on exporting breeds corruption and there is no doubt some hets found there way out or it is indeed a miracle :wink: :wink:


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## Retic (Jun 10, 2005)

I think there is a 100% probability that hets have been exported. I am not saying they resulted in these snakes being bred but as Browns says the chances of having 2 hets and not knowing is very small indeed.


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## moosenoose (Jun 10, 2005)

*RE: White on tongue? May well be a marker!*

Thanks Piet and Monika, absolutely incredible!  I love the pictures! and welcome to the site  (Have you seen my Darwin??) hehehehe (jokes) :wink:


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## beknluke (Jun 10, 2005)

*RE: White on tongue? May well be a marker!*

Ooooh - I want one!!


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## herptrader (Jun 10, 2005)

Dear Piet and Monika,

When you say the "possible hets" look different, what about the known hets, ie the parents? If the theory holds weight they too should show the same morphology.





PietNuijten said:


> Gabe said:
> 
> 
> > Congrats Piet! What a great sight it would have been seeing those two pop out! Please keep us updated on their progress
> ...


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## BROWNS (Jun 10, 2005)

> Someone in australia has or had an albino bhp no doubt,prohibition on exporting breeds corruption and there is no doubt some hets found there way out or it is indeed a miracle



Exactly what i'm saying olddude and someone certainly has had and most likely bred from this albino bhp which was originally found on a cattle property just out of Rockhampton.














> I think there is a 100% probability that hets have been exported. I am not saying they resulted in these snakes being bred but as Browns says the chances of having 2 hets and not knowing is very small indeed.



I would say more likely than not that's how these animals came about.Also as trader has stated the "supposed" unknown hets which i'd like to know if they were siblings or non related? and they should also show the white on the head if in fact it is a trait.I've seen pics of a bhp with a white head and that one really bizzare one of bigguys which are very different bhp's then there's the bumblebee bhp and natural woma bhp cross so one would think an albino gene is out there which it obviously is, and we'd have them here or had one here at least for sure and i'm sure someone would've either bred from it and smuggled the hets or even the albino in the pics.

That scenario seems very much more likely to be the case rather than just fluking it and getting 2 albinos from so called unknown hets.If it were to happen i'm most certain it would happen here where bhp's obviously come from.

Sorry but i'm not buying it but wouldn't mind having a couple :wink:


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## Skorpious (Jun 10, 2005)

I know its a small chance but why couldn't the orginal albino(s) be captive bred Browns? They have to start somewhere. I mean its a small chance but there is always that reasonable doubt.


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## BROWNS (Jun 10, 2005)

> They have to start somewhere.



Exactly right ,from the wild not from unknown animals carrying the gene.All albinos of all forms originated from wild caught specimens not by fluke breeding.

The albino bhp i posted was stilll around at the same time Blondie the original albino Darwin was found in the wild and any herper with half a brain ,not even a herper but someone that's well informed or lets say money smart who would've known the value of the animal.

Does anyone know what year the first albino burmese was found?I have an article on it somewhere and is most likely on Bob Clarks site...from memory i think Bob Clarke paid $40.000 for his first albino which would definitely have been well before the albino bhp was found or even last seen.So in saying that herpers around that time would have known exactly the value of that animal.I bet we get albino bhp's all of a sudden pop up here in the next few years when the hype about these dies down...I'd even lay money on that :wink:


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## BROWNS (Jun 10, 2005)

Does anyone see what i can see in that albino?


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## jimbo (Jun 10, 2005)

...no


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## indicus (Jun 10, 2005)

*RE: White on tongue? May well be a marker!*

Had to happen.....awesome, good on you :mrgreen:


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## viandy (Jun 10, 2005)

Hello Browns et al --
Hard to disagree with the point you raise about the chances of uknown hets
being almost impossible. Not impossible, but oh so close. Of course, that raises the problem of politics -- no doubt legal documentation is on hand for the parents (and yes, a pic of them would be nice!!). If the legal documents are on hand, well, it is legal, no matter what one's doubts may be. 
I almost forgot what I posted to mentions -- a reference is made to them being far more likely to appear in Australia than the U.S. Certainly true, but they aren't in the U.S. -- they are in the Netherlands!! I hope I don't come off as too defensive on that!
This does raise the question, what about the jaguar carpets? They arose spontaneously, didn't they? Or the arabesque boa? I realize these are pattern traits, not color, and are codominant as opposed to recessive.
Be aware, I am not trying to argue about this. I think it seems like a good discussion topic, though it does digress from the original post a bit.

AndyV
U.S.A


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2005)

Thanks for that browns i knew there must be one somewhere LOL pity i didnt find it first  Oh well ile just have to be content with the ugly ones mate.I do wish the breeders of these animals good luck i was just curious to how they came about cause all the others i know of like reticulatus and variegata etc came from wild origin thats all.Suppose they find there way out of ozz like all the others before them browns and i wonder if parks and wildlife in QLD knew you had one would they let you breed it. 8)


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## Ramsayi (Jun 10, 2005)

These albinos or indeed any albinos could occur spontaneuosly.The rate at which it occurs in humans is estimated to be 1 in 20,000.It has occurred in nearly every type of animal.Rough estimates are 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 40,000 and is thought to be a universal occuring mutation.I would suspect that the hets that produced these albinos were siblings and the guy was just incredibly lucky(for the second time).
It doesn't make any difference to the frequency of it occuring wether they came from the wild or were CB,point is that it occurs (spontaneously).


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2005)

Yeh Ramsayi its just odds,sure :lol:


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## BROWNS (Jun 10, 2005)

Yeah olddude they must have some pretty good odds over there in the Netherlands.I thought they were in the US b ut being in Sweden i'd say there'd be an even smaller gene pool there than in the US...i think someone over there somewhere has good Aussie contacts and the chances of them being bred in Sweden would have to be less than the US and no way would either have more diversity in bhp's than we do and have in Oz.These obviously came from a related pair of hets which makes more sense again that there was an original albino that they had to have come from and bhp's are only found in Oz so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this wasn't just a fluke breeding.

Think about it,that albino i posted i sat next to for 2 years in 1985 and 86.There are a few members of the site who have been breeding herps for well over 20 years and i'm sure someone knew of this animal and a herp found out or something along those lines.It was in biology that i sat next to and fed that animal and the teacher was no fool and had to have told someone about it or even taken it when he stopped teaching there as i rang the school a few years ago now and asked about it and nobody knew what i was talking about and it did just dissapear.

Also what i can see in that pic is some yellow banding or pattern at the tail end of the snake but the rest is pure white.When i saw and fed it it was a full grown adult and all white as well as blind in with a regular bhp most likely the same one in the pic with the albino,so who knows if they bred and where the animal went.

There's no doubt whatsoever that that is the very same animal i sat next to for 2 yeaars every school day which has been proven in another thread about albinos in general i think.Up until recently there has only been one known albino carpet in the world apart from the albino stories that are thrown around but with no proof.I'd also say that albino bhp was the first and only known one in the world as well.

We're just covering large areas in WA with the few licenced collectors over there as well as the few other places that take bhp's or took them from the wild as would anyone if they found an albino bhp and the only place you're going to find one of those is here in Oz,yet over all the years with all the quite unique bhp's found and the many herping expeditions by many peoplethere has never been a mention of one even sighted and they're finding new species and or sub species all the time.There has never been a pic or a mention in any book at all and these pics would probably be 3 of only a few pics that prove the animal existed.

Not hard to work out how these albinos came about when you really think about it and all the possible scenarios for an albino bhp to just pop up let alone 2 and from what i can tell and hasn't been said otherwise i don't think that the animals that produced thes 2 albinos were unrelated which to me means twice as much bullshit, as then there'd have to have been 2 original albinos that they came from which even for the believers who think these came from a fluke breeding would have to think that to be more than extremely unlikely....maybe greebs or sdaji can give us some percentages :lol: So i still don't believe it and sure i believe in pattern and colour mutations or morphs but you can't compare any of them to albinism or Amelanism or is that amelanistic :lol: 

Well by rights there should be hets and double hets etc in the vicinity of where the albino bhp was found so maybe it's worth going to the area and snatching every bhp there is and even then your chances or odds of breeding albinos would have to be umpteen times more than in Sweden of all places.Apparently it's great for snow sking and hot chickies there but no chance of finding a bhp let alone an albino one :roll: :lol: i think this is the longest post i've ever made but i can't help myself from posting as the odds of this spontaneously happening in a country they're not native to, and i dare say not too common either considering bhps are twice the price of womas which they should be lol but i think you can see where i'm coming from!


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## Retic (Jun 10, 2005)

Browns, all very interersting but they were bred in the Netherlands not Sweden, reptiles are hugely popular in Holland and although I agree that the chances of just breeding them by chance is very small they are very serious about their reptiles over there and produce some amazing animals. Definitely can't do much skiing in Holland


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2005)

Gee Browns i think you have confused everyone with your intellect on the subject :? Some of the answers ive heard today regarding albinos appearing out of no where is shooting the crap too much. :shock:


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## Rossagon (Jun 10, 2005)

hmmm. What i'd like to know is how did the albino's in the wild come about then. If you think about it they most surely would have come from a pair of normal coloured snakes which per chance carried the het gene for albinism. Whether it be recessive or chromosomally sex linked, i don't know, as i'm sure no expert on these things. You would have to assume that these genes would not be held advantageous in the wild, as you could say that a white snake would stick out like the preverbial thumb. But as small populations of genetically similar animals breed, as per the island theory, or populations within populations, possibly seperated by geographical barriers would state, you would surely get animals with similar heterozygous genetic make up within small areas. Therefore you would get a higher chance of these recessive genes within a smaller area. This may possibly be happening within these animals held in captivity overseas. So the likelyhood of this particular trait expressing itself would mostlikely be higher if the trait is present within this small population. 
As i am trying not to confuse myself now, i will finish in saying that i would not be beyond the belief that these animals did occur per chance. whether they are carrying these genes as a result of a previous albino python that may have originated from Australia and bred, who knows?

But anyway. Fantastic snakes Piet. Good luck with them.


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## Reptile City (Jun 10, 2005)

*please Explain*

Heres Bobs BHP.
Please Explain?

Jason


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## hugsta (Jun 10, 2005)

*RE: please Explain*

Reptilecity, I believe that Bob's unusual BHP is actually caused from a pigmentation "defect". Each time it sheds it loses more of its original colour. There is another breeder that comes to this site that also has BHP showing the same traits, although not to the extent of Bobs at this stage.


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## Skorpious (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: please Explain*

I don't think it matters if the snakes are breeding in their native country or not, I don't think they can't tell the difference 
But Browns you did make a good point about the 2 albinos popping up in the one clutch would be (near) impossible if it was a spontanteous. So you won me over 
Unique anyway Piet 

Has Bob bred that BHP to find out if it is the result of a 'defect'?


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## PietNuijten (Jun 11, 2005)

*Re: RE: please Explain*



Skorpious said:


> I don't think it matters if the snakes are breeding in their native country or not, I don't think they can't tell the difference
> But Browns you did make a good point about the 2 albinos popping up in the one clutch would be (near) impossible if it was a spontanteous. So you won me over
> Unique anyway Piet
> 
> Has Bob bred that BHP to find out if it is the result of a 'defect'?


Hello everyone,
You can think about many different theorie about the albino's but it was only good luck, the same was happen with our granite carpets.
I buy them from the wild 10 years ago (from 20 import carpets from Irian Jaya). I buy 1.1 and breed them and keep some baby's from them.
After three years we breed with this snakes and have from 11 eggs 4 granites. 
Here also some new pictures from one of my albino blackheadpythons after shedding.

Piet and Monika


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: please Explain*



> Browns, all very interersting but they were bred in the Netherlands not Sweden


Netherlands,Sweden,Austria,Holland tip toeing through the tulips, whatever , still in a country that would definitely not have the wide diversity of bhp's we have.Agreed they produce some amazing snakes but would no way have such a big gene pool as we do.

Think about it again,how did bhp's end up"overseas"?All originally from the wild just as ours are and if anyone thinks smuggling doesn't happen anymore is just plain naieve!!! The amount of animals seized from being attempted to be smuggled into the country is quite amazing and they're the ones that have been found.Wake up Australia it still happens and i lay money on it that's where these animals originate from.It's all $$$$$$ orientated and if we're catching animals still trying to be smuggled into the country you can bet your a$$ that animals from Australia are still making their way into private collections overseas!!!

The bhp of Bobs is one wierd spun out looking animal and must be a trait.From what i've gathered Bob's bred this animal a few times but i don't think the offspring were bred with each other or back to the wierd bhp.If that is a trait and the bumblebee colouring is a trait imagine what might come from breeding those 2 morphs together???I believe the granite and zebra morphsin the US or wherever they are as well as inherited pattern traits have already been produced here and probably been around much longer or popped up before and nobody ever took much notice.There's several animals around with inherited pattern traits which has also just been noticed within the last 5 years or so from seemingly normal looking animals that we're used to seeing such as striped animals but not until too recently have people realised this and now striped animals will be bred to other animals with similar inherited traits and the albino carpets there's the start to a whole new world of different morphs that will come about in the future.

Also with the zebra morph i have a friend who bred murry darlings that came out with the very same type of patterning,and i'm sure someone has produced granite looking carpets as well from a pic i recall seeing on here ages ago....

Spontaneous albinos,yeah right :roll:


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## basketcase (Jun 11, 2005)

*Re: RE: please Explain*



> Spontaneous albinos,yeah right :roll:



what youre effectively saying is that either 
a - piet is lying about it and paid a hefty sum for animals he knew were albino hets (even tho he has no reason to lie) 
b - someone smuggled them out then sold them off as normal old bhp's, for what i assume was the going rate

neither make any sense at all

i agree its highly unlikely, but so was the fact that michael slater would hold one of the best test bowling averages for nearly a decade


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## Mr.K (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: please Explain*



> i agree its highly unlikely, but so was the fact that michael slater would hold one of the best test bowling averages for nearly a decade


LMAO - Nice peice of trivia baskets!! :lol:


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: please Explain*



> what youre effectively saying is that either
> a - piet is lying about it and paid a hefty sum for animals he knew were albino hets (even tho he has no reason to lie)
> b - someone smuggled them out then sold them off as normal old bhp's, for what i assume was the going rate
> 
> ...


And trivial is all it is!Yes as if you hadn't noticed already i am saying that i think the albinos did come from a smuggled pair of hets or an albino and of course piet has no reason to lie,as if anyone would admit to that on open forum let alone anywhere else.I am not accusing anyone in specific so get that clear and Get real,and what has cricket got to do with reptiles anyway...useless trivia is what that is unless your a trivial pursuit fan :lol: The granites came from wild imported animals and aren't albino but just a pattern morph not albino but still from the wild nonetheless,where did the albinos come from huh???


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## Magpie (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: please Explain*

Browns, you do not need an albino to get hets, you only need a het.
The original albino could have been 10 thousand generations ago, the het gene is still there.
Diversity is exactly what will cause the albino gene to never be expressed.
Breeding a het to a het is what will cause it to happen.


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## NCHERPS (Jun 11, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: please Explain*



Magpie said:


> Browns, you do not need an albino to get hets, you only need a het.
> The original albino could have been 10 thousand generations ago, the het gene is still there.
> Diversity is exactly what will cause the albino gene to never be expressed.
> Breeding a het to a het is what will cause it to happen.



Well said Magpie!

I have already mentioned(In the Morph's thread) another case where this happened in captivity, in regards to the Albino GTP's in the US, which came from animals bred by 'The Barkers' and the siblings were then subsequently later bred to each other to produce the albino. None of the original animals held by the Barkers were of albino appearance and non have up until now been found in the Wild(Due obviously to the lack of survival being too obvious to predators), but obviously there are going to be more Hets that will have survived and of which have been exported/smuggled(Unknowingly).
But, it all comes down to how many generations of captive breeding has been achieved to produce these animals, I still stand by my opinion that this was as 'Piet' described, pure luck on his part.

There is a larger gene pool of BHP's than you would think outside of Australia, alot of course were originally smuggled animals, or legally shipped to zoo's from Australia, and then there offspring sold to the public or dealers once bred(Zoo's outside of Australia, particularly in the USA do sell to reptile dealers and private breeders).
Of course people in the US and Europe buy from each others bloodlines all the time to get a diversity, and although this doesn't obviously give the same amount of animals to work with as Australia, there are alot out there relatively speaking.

Again, we all know that all the BHP's in other countries in the world originate from WC stock caught in Australia, but they have been bred over many, many generations in these countries, and I don't think it is fair to say that someone is lying, just because they are lucky enough to have produced the first albino's in captivity.

As for the Granites, as stated, he bought WC WP carpets, bred them, then bred from the siblings to produce this trait, again it's something that is very rare, and quite unique, nothing quite like it has been found in the Wild, but obviously it was a recessive gene.

I again congratulate Piet and Monika in another captive first.
Keep the pic's coming.

Neil


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: please Explain*

Yeh but albinos are as everyone knows a freak of nature and in most cases corrected shortly by nature as the animals just wouldn't survive too well if the gene were expressed although the albino red belly that was caught was a mature animal or close to it and survived just fine and looked in cb condition in the pic..Also i'm sure some of Bob Clarkes original albinos came from wild caught adult albinos he payed huge prices for to import them.The two hets had to come from an albino first not directly from hets if you know what i mean,and you do nedd an original albino for any het, and yes the gene is there and as you say unless you cross 2 hets you could have an animal carrying the gene and breed it a thousand times and still not get albinos.This again makes the likelyhood of this happening even less again.

Surely you know what i'm getting at and i understand what you've said but there had to be an original albino wether 10 or 10,00 years ago,then there would have to be 2 animals related to the original albino mated to each other to produce albinos, so either that gene came from one original albino and thousands of years later 2 hets somehow related to it produced them?So extremely unlikely and if not that way then there may have been a few albinos in the past that reached maturity and bred and then the chances of the offspring from them ending up in Holland or wherever and then by fluke were bred to each other to produce these......again extremely highly unlikely and there's already a much more logical explanation but don't get me wrong i don't doubt that maybe one day an albino will be bred from unknown origins or genetics but again hasn't happened yet in reptiles as far as i know up until now supposedly.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2005)

Theoretically speaking a mutated gene could happen in captivity as in the wild creating other hets and when two hets come together in captivity or wild they create a proportion of albinos.Ok every one realizes this but all the other albino pythons i know of originated from the wild,so the creation of albino pythons in captivity has no track record or history.So on the evidence ide say it was more unlikely than likely. :roll:


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2005)

> but there had to be an original albino wether 10 or 10,00 years ago,then there would have to be 2 animals related to the original albino mated to each other to produce albinos, so either that gene came from one original albino and thousands of years later 2 hets somehow related to it produced them?



Just as an aside, several people have been stating that there had to be an original albino - that's not correct. There had to be an original het, which may have been 10,000 years ago. And it came long before the albino.

If this is a simple mutation of one gene at one locus, then there are two chromosomes that carry the gene. Assuming the mutation is recessive and not sex-linked (basing this assumption on the fact that 2 of 8 were albino), then one mutation of a gene on one chromosome is all that is necessary to produce a het. The gene that is normal will produce normal colouration. And that's how it all starts.

When the het breeds with a normal, some of the offspring will have the gene, some won't. But they'll all look normal. That mutated gene could pass down through dozen's of generations, and you'll only get the albino when two hets pair up. 

As has been said, albinos would probably not survive long in the wild, so there's a good chance that they wouldn't attain breeding age and propagate. That's evolution selecting against a deleterious gene. But the gene will usually survive in the population, but at a very low frequency. 

It's when you get a small gene pool, or captive breeding techniques like selective breeding are being used, that the frequency increases and then you get albinos occurring.

Just a small point. Thought some might be interested in it.



Hix


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2005)

Browns, I hate to be condescending, but pull your head in. Discussing likelihoods of mutations occuring etc is one thing, but putting it in the same context as accusations directed at another keeper is something different. You've clearly demonstrated that your knowledge of genetics is at best poor and you're using it almost as evidence against the breeder.

For the record, spontaneous mutations occur very often, in fact, they occur in your body countless times per day, both in somatic cells and your gametes. The majority of people reading this thread, including you and I, carry novel alleles in our genomes which are not shared by either of our parents, that is, we carry new mutations. It is unusual for an individual not to carry new mutations. Obviously most of these won't cause albinism or any other notable phenotypic trait change, but with the numbers of snakes being kept around the world, it is certain that such mutations will occur frequently. Usually the necessary backcrosses are not performed, so all these heterozygotes for albinism and other traits go around unnoticed.

The genetic diversity of a population generally doesn't affect the mutation rate appreciably, but if it has any affect at all it is virtually always negative (that is to say, lower genetic diversity will increase the mutation rate). The likelihood of novel albinism popping up in a population is mainly affected by population size and mate choice; genetic diversity has a negligible affect. In several species of captive animals (and plants), new mutations which have demonstrably occured within captivity had lead to new morphs/cultivars (including albinism in animals).

As many members on this site will attest to, I could rave on about the specifics of the relevant genetics for far longer than most people could be bothered reading and it would do little more than bore most of those who did bother, so I'll leave it there.

All you have done is speculate, you've done so with a clear lack of relevant knowledge and since you're doing this at the expense of someone's reputation, I suggest you cease.


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## toxinologist (Jun 11, 2005)

Hey Hix,

Given the number of adult albinos that turn up in collections from the wild (i.e: Gavin Bedford's olive python; the Rockhampton BHP which we older herps all knew about back in the '80's; an albino RBBS from western Sydney; et al), I would say they survive in the wild reasonably well...

BROWNS points are that basically that:

(a) shipping native animals from Australia is ILLEGAL; 
(b) the chances of anyone anywhere obtaining two het snakes randomly is disproportionately high; 
(c) so too are the probabilities of two hets being outside Australia and ending up in the one collection by chance alone. 

The question is ... are the odds that het or albino BHP's were deliberately smuggled out of Australia to a country where they would command a exhorbitant price on the black market LOWER or HIGHER than these other competing probabilities ...

Hmmmm :roll:


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## Hickson (Jun 11, 2005)

*Re: RE: Albino blackheads (new pictures)*



toxinologist said:


> Hey Hix,
> 
> Given the number of adult albinos that turn up in collections from the wild (i.e: Gavin Bedford's olive python; the Rockhampton BHP which we older herps all knew about back in the '80's; an albino RBBS from western Sydney; et al), I would say they survive in the wild reasonably well...



Hey Toxo,

I was just generalising when I said that albinos would be selected against, because they usually are. I did state that they would "*probably* not survive long in the wild". If the mutation was advantageous then I would have expected more albinos to be around. You said "given the number that turn up in collections from the wild" - how many have turned up, and how many of those were of breeding age when they were collected? 

I've not spent a lot of time looking into the whole albino thing, so I don't know how many have turned, or what their survival or reproductive rate in the wild is. And considering the climate of Australia, it would be a logical assumption that a reduction or complete absence of melanin would not enhance your survival. I'm sure Geckodan could tell you tales about albino mammals he's treated that easily get sunburnt.

Anyway, I was just pointing out that genetically, it all started with a het, not an albino. 



Hix


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

> All you have done is speculate, you've done so with a clear lack of relevant knowledge and since you're doing this at the expense of someone's reputation, I suggest you cease.


 Pull your own head in sdaji,fair enough i may not have a great in depth uderstanding of genetics and you and you're uni acquired knowledge will always pull out something contradictory no matter what the topic is.In this case it's about reptiles so who then has bred albinos with guaranteed solid background proof from an unknown species of reptile that 2 unrelated hets were paired to produce albinos with no other documentation of albinism occuring in the species beforehand?

For the record again i'm not accusing anyone or person here of anything,nor am i speculating.I call it a hypothetical guess wether it's not as well educated as yours makes no difference to me,read between the lines.This has and still is a healthy discussion and nobody in particular has been accused of anything,however i do think there's something just a little fishy about this which is my opinion on the subject which i'm entitled to and nothing more. You already think you know how this occured so i'm not saying this to you but everyone else can choose to believe what they want.I just don't think anyone has the balls to discuss this openly seeing as the announcement was made here.

To that i also say that in no way am i saying the breeder is involved with whatever you guys think i'm thinking which i'd like to state clearly!!!! as i do not want any repucussions from this however i'm not sitting back and ceasing as you suggest sdaji and wether you asked me to or not i will still voice my opinion if i feel the need or want to....like it or lump it,don't bother reading it, but i won't stop just because you asked me to. Don't have much else left to say about the topic and most people would have made their own decisions and have their own thoughts on the matter by now.

Interesting that no breeders or not many have voiced their opinion as they would be very interesting to hear.I bet if Bob got on here or someone else on the sight most people would then think "well if he thinks so it must be right" follow the leader style.Then there's the fence sitters who have their opinions but would prefer to not post them publicaly and others who chose to voice their opinions as you have.

This is a discussion forum isn't it?Last time i checked there were no rules against voicing your own opinion as long as there are no direct accusations or name calling etc the thread should continue!


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## ether (Jun 11, 2005)

I think Bob has bred that crazy BHP and none of the young showed those traits, don't quote me on this though.

Cheers Alex


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

Thanks David,that's it in a nutshell and thank god someone else knows the animal i'm talking about.Right time frame,all stories almost perfectly matched to the truth except for where it ended up which as i say someone knows and that's a given.

Ether read the posts mate,the bhp of Bobs has been bred and no offspring looked like it but i'm not sure if the offspring have been bred with each other or back to the mutant bhp which if done would let you know if it's a recessive trait or not.


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

> Browns, I hate to be condescending, but pull your head in.




hehehe i was going to tell you to act like a turtle yourself and pull your head in but i'm sure you'd have responded with an in depth scientific explanation of how some turtles don't actually pull their heads in they rahdy dahdy dah.That's what i mean by always coming up with somethin contradictory no matter what the topic just for arguements sake or to try and prove how highly intellectual they are ,and don't see things in black and white as do peoplel i would refer to as "old school people"Cut to the chase and don't bullshit about!!!


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2005)

> For the record again i'm not accusing anyone or person here of anything,nor am i speculating.



Amazing. Denial at its best. Read your posts in this thread :roll:



> That's what i mean by always coming up with somethin contradictory no matter what the topic just for arguements sake or to try and prove how highly intellectual they are



Mate, I avoid getting involved in most threads, especially where the word 'genetics' pops up. The only reason I jumped in here is because I was disgusted at the accusations being thrown at someone which were based on speculation based on ignorance. By all means, speculate to your heart's content where appropriate, no matter how much or little you know, but don't use those speculations to imply that people have broken laws or acted without ethics.



> This is a discussion forum isn't it?Last time i checked there were no rules against voicing your own opinion as long as there are no direct accusations



You said it. After reading your posts in this thread, it's perfectly clear that you were throwing accusations around and tarnishing someone's/peoples' name(s)



> Interesting that no breeders or not many have voiced their opinion as they would be very interesting to hear.I bet if Bob got on here or someone else on the sight most people would then think "well if he thinks so it must be right" follow the leader style.Then there's the fence sitters who have their opinions but would prefer to not post them publicaly and others who chose to voice their opinions as you have.



You're right about most people being blind followers, but don't mistake my disgust at your accusations as my saying that these albinoes are from any particular origin. I have no idea and made no guess, I just said that there are many possibilies and jumping to conclusions about them being deliberately smuggled out of Australia is bad. The reason few people other than yourself have claimed to be sure about their origins is that there is that if it was just by luck, no one can say and if there have been fractured laws, the only people who know are those involved and they obviously won't say.

Incidentally, Piet is probably now thinking "wow, those Australians just love to jump to conclusions and bad mouth other keepers" and will perhaps be unlikely to come back to this site to give updates etc. I've seen no reason to doubt his integrity and hope he doesn't take your harsh words as the general feeling of our community.

Anyway, no need to lose any sleep over it, I know I won't  Keep smiling 

Piet: if you're still bothering with this thread, congratulations and keep us posted


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2005)

Hix this is the usual waffle you go on with,so there must be albino spilota produced in the USA as they have been line bred in a limited gene pool and there is none.The onley spilota known as i know was from the wild near darwin and of all the line breeding of maculosus that gos on the onley albino that ime aware of was from the wild in QLD,get your facts right your wrong.Sadji :shock: and toxicologist is the onley person that sees things in a realistic way some others just waffle for the sake of it. :roll:


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2005)

Talking of 'waffling on" look up to sadjs post. :lol: :lol:


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## bigguy (Jun 11, 2005)

Browns, just to throw a spanner in the works how would you explain my Albino Bearded Dragons.

I started of with one pair of yellow Central Beardeds. I bred them and raised some of the young. Bred some of the young, raised again and bred from these. Did the same again and then ended up with a few young that were not yellow, but pale in colour. Raised these, bred from them and hatched albinos. The pales appeared at the 3rd generation and the albinos at the 4th generation.
No outside line was used yet albinos appeared.

By your way of thinking the origional two must have had the het gene, yet albinos did not appear for 4 generations.

For those that asked regarding my weird BHP, it may be recessive as some of her offspring are doing some weird things when bred by other breeders.

Also, I have one problem with the smuggled theory. If the Albino BHP was bred by someone back in the 80's, why has it taken 20 years to bred the young with the recessive het genes. If the young were deliberatly smuggled for commercial reason as suggested, surely there would have been a concertrated effort to bred them and the albino's would have appeared some 15 years ago. The statement that the timing is correct for this theory has a huge 15 year gap in it. Doesnt make sense to me.


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

> The only reason I jumped in here is because I was disgusted at the accusations being thrown at someone which were based on speculation based on ignorance. By all means, speculate to your heart's content where appropriate, no matter how much or little you know, but don't use those speculations to imply that people have broken laws or acted without ethics.


Jump off your pedastal sdajjiji, i'm not accusing anyone in particular and it's not based on speculation and ignorance.If you truly believe that reptiles don't get smuggled from here you're the bloody ignhorant one mate.I have ethics and respect but can also voice my opinion and have made it clear i mean no disrespect and am not being accusing of anyone specific,but the fact is albinos in reptiles all originated from the wild and as there has been an albino bhp in Oz basically it doesn't take much to work it out.I saw that animal every school day for 2 years as well as fed it and it's cage mate.That and the pics are proof enough and not too many people believed my story about feeding an albino bhp but i don't bullsshit and my story happened to be backed up with basically the same information as i stated in my story and then came the pics to seal the deal.

You wouldn't believe the people that agree with what i'm saying sdaji.You still haven't provided any facts or proof that any one albino reptile has been bred serendipitously?The fact is there was an albino bhp here in Oz and that's the only place an albino bhp will come from,it's pretty clear to me what has happened.

I knew there'd be other herps who knew of this animal as toxinman did.Enough said and to Piet i am not accusing you of smuggling nor anyone else in specific but the truth is that reptiles are still being smuggled in and out of the country and sdaji you'd have to be naieve to think otherwise.


> You're right about most people being blind followers, but don't mistake my disgust at your accusations as my saying that these albinoes are from any particular origin


Now you're waffling again,what the hell are you going on about.I haven't accused you of anything!!!

I'm out of this for a while as i've provided plenty of info regarding the albino bhp here in Australia and believe i know a little more than you about it,in fact i'm sure you would never even have heard of it but i'm sure you would've had some other theory as to how they came about,nor would you have believed my story if i told you ages ago but it has been backed up with solid proof and you can draw your own conclusions as to how the albino bhp's came about.Like i said read between the lines!!!!


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## NoOne (Jun 11, 2005)

Don't worry about him Browny, he went to Uni and has a degree now AND he works in a lab, he knows what it's all about. 
It's the same as people that work at zoo and have nothing to do with animals, they know what it's all about. :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:


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## africancichlidau (Jun 11, 2005)

Play nicely now Children


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2005)

Incredible browns, just when I thought you couldn't spurt any more nonsense you prove me wrong by spurting more.

I'll try to keep this brief.

I don't dispute that you sat next to an albino black headed python, I never have. I've heard about that snake from several people and knew about it well before I knew about you. The existance of one albino doesn't negate the possibility that others exist and your suggestion is absurd. Additionally, as bigguy points out, the timing strongly suggests that the one you were familiar of has nothing to do with Piet's. In any case, this is a red herring argument, I haven't made any reference to it before this post yet you keep raving about it.

I don't need to give you proof that it has happened with several species, asking for such is quite silly. There isn't really any way to prove that it hasn't happened as one could always say "oh yeah? How do we know they aren't lying?". The fact that it is possible and statistically speaking likely to occur from time to time somewhere in the world with various species is more than enough, even if it hadn't happened before (which would be unlikely). If you're really interested, do some reading, you'll find several anectodes of it happening. Chasing up references for you is not my job, especially when it's for yet another red herring.

I have no idea why you suggest I think animals aren't being smuggled. Once again you're bringing in stupid red herrings. Like virtually everyone, I am well aware that reptile smuggling both into and out of Australia is a frequent occurence. The fact that some people do it doesn't mean that everyone does.

I didn't say you'd accused me of anything. Read posts more carefully before responding to them.

Knowing about the existance of one albino snake doesn't really mean you know what is going on. For the record, last year I spoke to a few people about the albino you refer and two indicated that it definately never bred. I can't be sure that it's true, from where I stand it's just rumour.

I don't know why you keep telling me my conclusion about the origin of these snakes is wrong - I have not drawn a conclusion; I've just said that it's not nice to start throwing around your conclusion that smuggling was involved when you have no reason to.

Before anyone points out that I said I'd try to keep it brief, know that this is the brief version 

I hope you're not stewing over this, these posts can come across very dry in text, but there's no anger over here  Go cuddle something yellow


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2005)

> Don't worry about him Browny, he went to Uni and has a degree now AND he works in a lab, he knows what it's all about.
> It's the same as people that work at zoo and have nothing to do with animals, they know what it's all about.



Have I ever said "I have a degree, I must be right", "I work in a lab so I must be right?" or "I work in animal houses, I must know what I'm talking about"? I really don't care what level of formal eduction people have or what their occupation is nor do I like people equating credibility with such things.

Can you recall where I have claimed to be more knowledgable or intelligent than the average person? They're not claims I am trying or wanting to make; I don't know why you feel the need to accuse me of such.

Keep smiling, or if you aren't already, start now


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

Yeah whatever Bob,you're right mate.Not a chance in hell that these albinos may have come from the one mentioned in Oz :roll: Well your albino bearded story certainly is interesting and Splitmore also bred some so i have another theory there but that's all...i know Splitmores came from a pair of hets as 1/4 of the clutch were albino but have no idea how they came about.

Now this is not relating to anyone mentioned above in anyway ok,but,if i caught a wild albino maccy for example there's no way in the world i'd tell anyone the offspring came from a wild caught albino and neither would most people.I have heard a few other albino carpet stories and from memory one was from you Bob that someone had an albino carpet as a pet and you offered them sweet f all for it so you said but no proof.If it's true that would also be wild caught and not bred by someone.There's albino adders and 2 different ones which have bred and the offspring are from wc albinos.There's the albino blue tonguehere's the possibility that was wc also and bred,I've seen an albino bts which was wild,the olive was wc,2 albino maccys wc,albino red belly wc,albino darwin wild caught and albino bhp wild caught and that goes for all albino reptiles anywhere else in the world.

The 15 year gap means nothing Bob,when i last saw it it was 1986 and who knows how long it lived for after that and if it was bred and how many times and how long it took to breed.Just because there are none available or around that anyone knows of doesn't mean there's no progeny from that albino.The hets would take 2-3 years realistically to breed then another generation bred to produce albinos.If there's the possibility that albinos can come from 2 completely unknown hets which as said before had to come from an original albino in the first place "not one het as Hix stated,you need two animals carrying nthe albino gene"at sometime and hets from the albino may have been floating around for a while before bred or someone knew how much they would fetch on the blackmarket.

Come on i've said it once and has to be said again.With all the mutations in carpets that have been occuring overseas and the amount of cross and inbreeding as well as the fact we have none of the exact same mutations here in Oz yet they originated from here sometime that's also a given so with all that as well as here in Australia one would think the odds over such a long time to produce an albino would be huge but still none ever overseas and the ones nwe have came from a wild caught animal.

Enough albino bhp for me tonight,think what you like it still won't change my opinion and sdajiji next time you want to have a go don't bother as you'd be better off ringing life line and telling someone who actually might give a toss!!!


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2005)

> sdajiji next time you want to have a go don't bother as you'd be better off ringing life line and telling someone who actually might give a toss!!!



Big call from someone who gives enough of a toss to have responded to all my posts so far :lol:

Relax mate, you'll live longer 

By the way, all albinoes come from heterozygotes and in the majority of cases, from a single original heterozygote. The chances of a double mutation in a single individual are astronomically low. One mutation brings about one heterozygous individual which has several heterozygous offspring, the descendants either produce a homozygote or one descedant backcrosses to the original heterozygote, so Hix is correct. Did anyone claim that the black headed pythons which produced the albinoes were unrelated?


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## Jonathon (Jun 11, 2005)

*Re: RE: Albino blackheads (new pictures)*



> By the way, all albinoes come from heterozygotes and in the majority of cases, from a single original heterozygote. The chances of a double mutation in a single individual are astronomically low. One mutation brings about one heterozygous individual which has several heterozygous offspring, the descendants either produce a homozygote or one descedant backcrosses to the original heterozygote, so Hix is correct. ?




My head hurts :lol:


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Albino blackheads (new pictures)*



> I don't dispute that you sat next to an albino black headed python, I never have. I've heard about that snake from several people and knew about it well before I knew about you.


This amuses me considering your age as well as the fact that even Dave Barker has never known of nor heard of any albino bhp in Australia.Obviously you must be better informed than he :lol: Honestly mate i really don't give a toss about what you think and most of my posts are speaking generally and not all replies are directed to yourself but the ones that are aren't because i give a toss or not ,they're from the fact that you annoy the hell out of me and i have a feeling i'm not alone on that one either!l


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## Sdaji (Jun 11, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Albino blackheads (new pictures)*



> This amuses me considering your age as well as the fact that even Dave Barker has never known of nor heard of any albino bhp in Australia.



You weren't the only student who went to that school. Hundreds of students sat next to that snake over the years. It isn't exactly something which only you know about.



> you annoy the hell out of me and i have a feeling i'm not alone on that one either!l



You're no doubt quite right. To avoid annoying anyone requires being very boring indeed


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## africancichlidau (Jun 11, 2005)

Gentlemen, Sdaji &amp; Browns, please take your little discussion into your inboxes, (PM's that is). This thread was started by Piet for our enjoyment and I think your discussion is now probably upsetting him and his good lady wife. Please cut it off here and take it private if you wish to continue it.


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## BROWNS (Jun 11, 2005)

> This thread was started by Piet for our enjoyment and I think your discussion is now probably upsetting him and his good lady wife. Please cut it off here and take it private if you wish to continue it.


Too true afro,my apologies for sinking to a lower level.I had never intended on posting to purposely upset someone and it was a reasonably healthy discussion till you get towards the end.Obviously i wasn't the only one to see this snake it was in a massive boarding school with thousands of kids and i knew some herp would have known the significance,rareity and value which i've said from the start.No need for pm's,i've said all i have to say as far as that goes.

It would most certainly be a boring world if everyone agreed on the same thing :wink: Peace out man and let the discussion continue :mrgreen:


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## Rina (Jun 12, 2005)

*albino bhp*

Lets look at the bigger picture.
sdj academic back ground with genetics being a large part of that.
Bob whitey. Breeder of albino bearded dragons under a captive situation. breeder/ keeper/lover/etc of reptiles in the area of 30 years.
Other side of the coin.
Browns. To date hasnt bred a reptile. Has read some books and can quote other peoples information. Can and does show other peoples images. Has spent money on some excelent reptiles but hasnt been keeping for very long.
Now who shot jfk, was it maralin munroe.. Oh the conspriacy


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## indicus (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: albino bhp*

There's a quick little nip from the sidelines.....arrrr so well informed i see.... :roll: :lol:


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## Pike01 (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: albino bhp*

"By the way, all albinoes come from heterozygotes ",sorry this is wrong. homo x homo and het x homo also produce albino's.


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## Pyror (Jun 12, 2005)

pike1 wrote:


> "By the way, all albinoes come from heterozygotes ",sorry this is wrong. homo x homo and het x homo also produce albino's.



I do believe that Sdaji meant to write "all albinoes *came* from heterozygotes". Read contextually, he is referring to an original mutation. Not the result of a cross, where the gene for albinism already exists.


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## Pike01 (Jun 12, 2005)

Yeah i know Pyror, should of been originally came from. Know what he meant, just stuck out like a sore thumb.More mutations pop up overseas cause they are more inbred, but also the original het was most likely smuggled wheather it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago, so everyone is right. Half the people here could have hets, but cause most people try and breed unrelated animals they dont pop up.


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## NoOne (Jun 12, 2005)

*Re: albino bhp*



Rina said:


> Lets look at the bigger picture.
> sdj academic back ground with genetics being a large part of that.
> Bob whitey. Breeder of albino bearded dragons under a captive situation. breeder/ keeper/lover/etc of reptiles in the area of 30 years.
> Other side of the coin.
> ...



Thats a big statement coming from you Rina, what do you have to say about the actual thread? You only ever post when you get the chance to dig at someone you don't like or if you are defending Obee.
I would put all my money on that Browns know a hell of alot more than you or most people.
Before you start bagging people for not knowing why don't you learn something yourself.


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## Rina (Jun 12, 2005)

*albino bhp*

Hi duga
By all means if any of my post is untrue, please corect me.
As far as my knowledge on any subject you are now speculating as browns is doing. In actual fact you have no idea who your talking to or for that matter what i know


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## NoOne (Jun 12, 2005)

Why do you feel the need to run him down? You hardly ever post here unless you are running someone down that you don't like. You add nothing to the thread.
How many reptiles have you bred? How many albinos have you bred?
If you have a wealth of knowledge of this subject why don't you post it instead of running people down?


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: albino bhp*

{quote}Lets look at the bigger picture. 
sdj academic back ground with genetics being a large part of that. 
Bob whitey. Breeder of albino bearded dragons under a captive situation. breeder/ keeper/lover/etc of reptiles in the area of 30 years. 
Other side of the coin. 
Browns. To date hasnt bred a reptile. Has read some books and can quote other peoples information. Can and does show other peoples images. Has spent money on some excelent reptiles but hasnt been keeping for very long. 
Now who shot jfk, was it maralin munroe.. Oh the conspriacy {quote}

OH a snide remark from the peanut gallery and friends :lol: What you say couldn't be frather than the truth.Always ready for a dig aren't you Rina?You and your champion reptile breeder boyfriend never ever have anything productive to say,you only ever post to have a go at someone the both of you,wake up kiddies.

I think i've actually been keeoing carpets longer than obee has,my first reptile was a blue tongue and a couple of Tortises hen i lived in Victoria as a young tacker and was always chasing lizards and keeping them for a few days then letting them go.When i came to Qld in grade 7 so that's about 12-13 years old when i caught my first carpet and built an enclosure from besser blocks and chook wire and trie to feed it eggs from the fridge :roll: :lol: Since then i don't recall any time i have never had a reptile in all these years.My first jungle was a wild caught from Ravenshoe back when Bob Buckley still had his greens and a heap of juveniles which i had the pleasure to handle. I have pics going back years and years well before i was still able to walk.Since then i've kept pretty well most of our native pythons bar olives,and scrubs as well as womas.

Sure i've read books,everyone in the hobby does this also...amazing isn't it :lol: Most of what i post is from personal experience and if not i always say so and the same applies to posting pics,most of the jungles i post i say wether they're mine or not and have never posted a pic of an animal i claim to be my own which wasn't.Get your facts straight Rina,as Duga said you have no idea what you're talking about and are accusing me of something i havn't done so just tread lightly Rina.Actually how would you know if i've evr bred any reptile or not,you obviously think you know me well but again you are completely wrong.I've bred some skinks, and have never claimed to have bred anything else nor breeding skinks.I post heaps of pics that aren't my animals and i do that to show people examples etc what's wrong with that?I always state that they are not my animals and usually where the pic is from so quit you whining women.

This is all pretty rich considering king obee said it was not possible to breed albinos and they don't have yellow.I recall him saying even if both parents are carrying the gene you could breed them 1000 times and still never end up producing an albinbviously he had to eat his own words and just like you may have had to admit he was wrong as are you.Just because i have never bred a rptile does that automatically mean you know nothing about them even if you've been a herp freak all your life and kept them for well over 20 years from my first blue tongue,2 tortises and a couple of axalotyl(sp").Also if you'd like any proof whatsoever feel free to drop in some time i'll welcome you with open arms...NOT ...and can show you pics going back well before i had my accident 16 years ago now so pull your head in Rina as you clearly know nothing about what you think you know.

Also you can let obee know that the Krauss /Simms jungle i got from him which he said came from a certain person that he is just like you full of bullshit as i've shown the guy the animal and told him the story about how obee got it and he said he's never seen the animal as well as sying obee certainly isn't a good friend of his which obee seems to think,give the guy a ring and he'll tell you and i have a witness that was there when this was said.Just to add one more thing , indicus has been a long time friend of mine for 15 years and we used to knock around and party with the same people and one house i was living in at that time i hhad an Atherton jungle which escaped and freaked the rest of the boys out but ol treedude came to the rescue and found him behinf the fridge.You know so little about me it's almost pointless replying but i'm not wearing that sort of crap from anyone :twisted: Why don't you post something reptile related or constructive rather than nipping in from the side lines to take a bite whenever you can..get over yourself and gt on with life as i am and really don't give a toss what people like you say or think,most people are the same..

So who is the almighty person that duga is talking too then if you say he doesn't know?He knowsmore about me than you ever will. And yes i was a pretty arrogant angry prick back then but that's a completely different topic again and something i doubt you'd ever comprehend Rina,you have jsut made yourself look like a complete fool and i don't bullshit and am straight up and you can chose to believe what you want but all of what i have said above is indded fact!!!!


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## Jason (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: albino bhp*

I think some of you are getting a little bit worked up about this, and i think it makes a great read, so keep going. 
Oh and i dont think albinos are that great but thats a pretty ugly looking bhp i like the normal ones


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## bigguy (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: albino bhp*

Just imagine the thread if someone ever breeds a albino "INTERGRADE" :shock:


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2005)

The past record has been for profesional breeders to seek out albinos so they could breed them with a normal to produce hets for their busines,they need certainty in there breeding endevours.Bob clarke got an albino ball python from Ghana in 1989 and bred it with a normal to produce hets in 1990.Red albino blood pythons were originaly from wild albinos as was reticulatus and burmese.The albinos of pythons are known in the first instance predominantly from wild populations its a fact and reptile breeders know it.Once you get that certainty of genetics you want you can shape it and bring control to the situation to dominate a given market.All this business principle stuff while hix and sadji are trying to line breed to produce a first mutation going broke because they ignore the wild mutations which came from diversity and adversity which are seen first by there competitors. :lol:


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## NoOne (Jun 12, 2005)

*Re: RE: albino bhp*



bigguy said:


> Just imagine the thread if someone ever breeds a albino "INTERGRADE" :shock:



LMFAO!


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## NCHERPS (Jun 12, 2005)

*Re: RE: albino bhp*



bigguy said:


> Just imagine the thread if someone ever breeds a albino "INTERGRADE" :shock:



Yes, One outside of Australia! LOL!


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: albino bhp*

pmsl yeah that would be a ripper but i bet eventually even the good ol reliable intergrad will be crossed with albinos....

Spot on olddude you know it i know it and so do most other people that have half a brain.I'm not saying that in a bad way to anyone just a figure of speech ok...

Yeah may be getting a little worked up now after a certain persons coments on something they know practically nothing about.Perhaps Rina might like to give her theory on the subjet or did she jsut jump in to take a bite she badly needed or was it just to put a post in the thread as it was very counterproductive!


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## Jason (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: albino bhp*

interesting topic though ( not really) although i would like to see some pics of some albino carpets but only australian ones none of that american inbred stuff.


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

The original wild caught albino Drwin"Blondie" a truly gorgeous animal and i get told that when people wether they like reptiles or not that when they see Blondie they just gasp at her beauty.


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## NoOne (Jun 12, 2005)

careful browny, thats not your snake, you'll be in trouble for claiming it's yours lol :roll:


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

Oh shyte , i forgot about the Rina law,let me state clearely this is not my animal and i'm posting the pic as someone asked for one so i showed one example,now would people prefer to just read about albinos or would they prefer to also see pics?


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## Jason (Jun 12, 2005)

thats a gorgous snake, now that albino i would buy, are they ever up for sale as hatchlings, i bet they'd fetch a bit, very nice though. I would love to get a hypo coastal, well i plan on getting one next season.


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## bigguy (Jun 12, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: albino bhp*

I think both Pike and oldfella are both right.

There are heaps of albino breeding projects started from a wild albino's being found. Here in Australia, and many overseas. When you start with a known albino, and with a basic genectic knowledge you will eventually start breeding them for sure.

But as Pike stated there are also people who just fluke albinos accidently by not knowing they own a het and by linebreeding them . Good example me and Splitmore with Bearded Dragons and the GTP's in the USA from the Barker line.

I also agree with Pike that there are probably many het reptiles in Austrtalian collections and the owners have no way of knowing. Unless they are line bred as I did with my Beardeds then you just would not know what you had. Overseas, due to limited bloodlines they are forced to inbreed which explains why they have so many mutations compared to this country


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## Jason (Jun 12, 2005)

i'd definatly prefer to see the pics. pics speak louder then words


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

Got heaps more pics but don't want to go upsetting anyone if i post them :roll: maybe i'll just describe them instead?


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## Ricko (Jun 12, 2005)

gee rina pops up again to have a go at someone how surprising :|


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

> I think both Pike and oldfella are both right.
> 
> There are heaps of albino breeding projects started from a wild albino's being found. Here in Australia, and many overseas. When you start with a known albino, and with a basic genectic knowledge you will eventually start breeding them for sure.
> 
> ...


WOW dejavu!


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## Jason (Jun 12, 2005)

where do you get the pics BROWNS if they're on another site i would love to no which one


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

I had them sent to me by the breeder who wanted my opinion on them believe it or not.Try here there's everything you need to know www.southernxreptiles.com Have been following this albino project since the first hets were produced and Blondie has only been bred from once.


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## Jason (Jun 12, 2005)

thanks BROWNS


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

There's quite a bit of variation in the offspring,this first ones still pink towards the front.






One different again..






head shot of a different one again.They have 3 shades of nyellows in them and pink..


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## Jason (Jun 12, 2005)

yer i saw them on the site they are great. do you no how much they cost?


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## craig.a.c (Jun 12, 2005)

Jason said:


> yer i saw them on the site they are great. do you no how much they cost?



Can't imagine they would be cheap.

Thoose albino BHPs are bloody stunning IMO.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2005)

I looked up Greg Maxwells site Fine green tree pythons it states the first live albino GTP was hatched by Damon Salceies from locally specific Merauke animals obtained by a wild pairing bred by Tracey Barker.Since two albinos were produced in the Salceies clutch it is likely the parents are both hets since a spontaneous mutation from normal parents would likely have resulted in one albino offspring. So one of tracey barkers wild caught gtps must have been het,i wonder if tracey held the parents long enough to benefit from Salceies windfall.Thats where you would crave for some certainty i guess.


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

Here's an albino adder a friend just bred and it just like all other albinos came from a wild cauht albino..i believe this is the first breeding of an albino adder in the world but not the only case of amelanism in adders here.







I'd love these guys if they weren't venemous,absolutely gorgeous and the hets are the best deeprich red i've ever seen.


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## craig.a.c (Jun 12, 2005)

Adders are so beautiful when young like that, so cute.


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## africancichlidau (Jun 12, 2005)

> Just imagine the thread if someone ever breeds a albino "INTERGRADE"



Roflmbao Bob  I'll pay that one


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## NCHERPS (Jun 12, 2005)

oldfella said:


> I looked up Greg Maxwells site Fine green tree pythons it states the first live albino GTP was hatched by Damon Salceies from locally specific Merauke animals obtained by a wild pairing bred by Tracey Barker.Since two albinos were produced in the Salceies clutch it is likely the parents are both hets since a spontaneous mutation from normal parents would likely have resulted in one albino offspring. So one of tracey barkers wild caught gtps must have been het,i wonder if tracey held the parents long enough to benefit from Salceies windfall.Thats where you would crave for some certainty i guess.



That's what I said in an earlier thread oldfella, since then 'Trooper Walsh has also produced an albino from siblings related to the Barker animals, and from what I understand, no, the Barkers didn't keep any of the original animals.
If however the siblings hadn't been bred togeather by 'Damion Salcies', then theres a good chance there wouldn't still be any captive GTP's in the world. This is one good example of exactly the way I believe Piet's breeding came about, but it's more likely that the animals were more than two generations CB in the case of the albino bhp's.

Anyway, Everyone is entiltled to there opinions on the subject, however there's never any reason for anyone on either side of the arguement to either accuse/insinuate people of having obtained breeding stock inappropriately to produce thus animals, or for others to resort to personal attacks.

At the end of the day, the hatching of these captive bred animals is a wonderful addition to the captive Herpetological world, and a pleasure to see, wether they are here in Australia in the USA or as in this case 'The Netherlands'.

Australia has had some awesome Captive bred world first's in recent years, and I hope we see alot more here, exciting stuff! (Especially for the breeders of theses animals.LOL! Lucky *uggers!)


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## URS (Jun 12, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> Here's an albino adder a friend just bred and it just like all other albinos came from a wild cauht albino..i believe this is the first breeding of an albino adder in the world but not the only case of amelanism in adders here.
> 
> Brown there was a number of these bred about 6 to 8 years ago in Nth QLD by a breeder. I had two females and one male. There has been a picture in our gallery of them for about 6 years.
> http://www.ultimatereptiles.com.au/reptile/images/elapids/dadder1.jpg
> ...


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

That's unreal Tim,so as you say there'd be heaps of hets around,another mate has a pair of hets also but not ready this season but will produce albino adder next season.

There'd be so many things people don't want anyone to know about that are reptile related and i totally agree that there's going to be some big surprises alright.I'm sure many people have storys of really odd reptiles and freaks which nobody else know about.I have heard several albino carpet stories from a few people that didn't know reptiles but described the snake and one herp that says he knew of another albino carpet.


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## Retic (Jun 12, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: albino bhp*

You seem new to this Jason ? Don't for a single second think we don't go in for the same inbred stuff here. Linebreeding is the best and only real reliable way to continue or hold onto a colour or patterning trait.




Jason said:


> interesting topic though ( not really) although i would like to see some pics of some albino carpets but only australian ones none of that american inbred stuff.


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## BROWNS (Jun 12, 2005)

Another Aussie albino and once again wc.


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## Ricko (Jun 12, 2005)

where are pics of the maccies and everything else??? keep them coming


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## BROWNS (Jun 13, 2005)

I just remembered something.I'm sure it was in the first thread i've ever posted regarding albino carpets and i remember someone else commenting they knew someone else with an albino that looked much the same down Sydney or something and when i asked for any possible pics etc there were none but the username stated it was still a young animal.

I wonder if that was a true story, and i've had another told to me by a very well respected breeder on this site who hasn't come forward and told his story yet.I don't doubt it at all and is more likely to happen than pairing 2 unknown hets.

I've only been told what the albino macs looked like Ricko and i mentioned this just recently that the guy told me they both had blue eyes and were found in the same general area an it was then suggested that they were leucistic not albino which is even rarer than an albino.Cross an albino with a proper hypo carpet with no black or just a couple of spots and you'd get a snow or all white albino like the albino olives when they've matured.


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## The Rock (Jun 13, 2005)

I just want to know how any one could defend obee.?(what a joke). Shouldnt we always defend honesty.
Rob


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## Retic (Jun 13, 2005)

I was thinking that if we as keepers, amatuer and professional spent half as much time as we seem to spend arguing and backstabbing just imagine the healthy state of our 'hobby'.
Is it any wonder the big boys of the undustry tend to stay away from these places ? It defies belief some of the things I see written in here and places like it. 
There is a simple reason why we will never have the rights we feel we deserve, it's because we seem more intent on infighting. Very sad.


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## Switch (Jun 13, 2005)

BROWNS.... mate just in case no one has told you, DEATH ADDERS ARE VENOMOUS, stop holding the bloody things in your hands, even babies... lol....nice looking snakes though


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## BROWNS (Jun 13, 2005)

Really switch ,i never knew that,thanks mate :wink: It's not me holding them,the breeder had told me it's ok to do when freshly hatched but that's just what he said.He knows his elapids well so i'm guessing he knows he's in no danger but i know sfa about adders or vens in general.

I found that post where the was another albino carpet mentioned maybe Greebo can bring us up to date ?

Greebo Wrote="Ah...here we go again. 
Who really cares what the technical name for this kind of snake is. Alotta ppl still call them albinos even tho a true has no melanin and pink eyes. 
It's a very nice looking snake Browny. I guy in Wagga has a similar one....I'm hoping to get some offspring off him in a year or two"


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## NCHERPS (Jun 13, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> I've only been told what the albino macs looked like Ricko and i mentioned this just recently that the guy told me they both had blue eyes and were found in the same general area an it was then suggested that they were leucistic not albino which is even rarer than an albino.Cross an albino with a proper hypo carpet with no black or just a couple of spots and you'd get a snow or all white albino like the albino olives when they've matured.



That's not quite right.
To produce a 'Snow' anything you need a axanthic and an albino, you would breed these together to produce double Hets for snow, then breed two double hets for snow , to produce the snows. 

Neil


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## BROWNS (Jun 13, 2005)

Yeah well that's what i was getting at,i was close i always have to refer back to a chart to get the genetics right,like jag to jag to get a super jag right?


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## BROWNS (Jun 13, 2005)

Greebs, what's the news on the albino carpet your friend has and you had a couple coming from.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jun 13, 2005)

boa said:


> Is it any wonder the big boys of the undustry tend to stay away from these places ? It defies belief some of the things I see written in here and places like it.
> boa
> Probably the two biggest reptile breeders in our country are regular participants of this site as are many many other very well known and respected herpers as good as any body in this country. So who do you mean are big boys of the industry ?
> I am not arguing your point in regards to constant and often unjustified attacks by some as it often astounds me also. Generally speaking though controversy is usally popular on this site as the number of views always indicate. Whether or not some of the disscussions are worth reading remains another question. I do believe however, that most of the heated debates bring out a lot of positive information and if not I usally get a laugh.
> Cheers Dave :lol:


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## Retic (Jun 13, 2005)

Maybe we have different ideas of who are the biggest ?  Seriously though I have spoken to a couple of the big guys and they steer clear of these places, all of them not this one in particular.
Like you I am often astounded by some of the comments, I am a very easy going guy and ordinarily wouldn't dream of saying some of the things I hear but it seems to be commonplace. 
It is a shame as I usually have fun here, as I am home most of the time with a chronic back problem it is my favourite form of entertainment.


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## viandy (Jun 21, 2005)

*I remembered -- albino tegus!*

I've been trying to think of another albino that was "spontaneously" produced in captivity. like the chondro. Finally remembered. It was about 1999 when Ron St.Pierre first produced albino blue tegus, they were unknown before that. Another fellow in Florida U.S. produced them the same year, but Pierre has the bigger name so got the attention.
I realize this is pretty late in this thread, but it had been bugging me because I knew there was another reptile whose first known albino phenotype was through captive breeding.


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

The interesting thing for me that has come out of this thread is the suggestion that het's for albino may be morphologically different suggesting that in some species there may be a dominant component to what is a considered to be a recessive trait. This is the second time I have heard this reported, the first being by Gavin Bedford with his Albino Olive project.

Ref: http://www.herptrader.com.au/AlbinoOlive (See the fine print page)

If this is the case then line breeding individuals that show this trait would improve the probability of albino offspring being produced.


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## Retic (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

I am not convinced that hets carry any visible 'hints' as to their potential. It doesn't seem to be the case and being a recessive trait I can't see why there would be any visible signs. I suppose it is possible that certain species could be more prone to this and would possibly only manifest itself in an abnormality perhaps ?


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## BROWNS (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

OK,just a tthought,i get thousands of Asian house geckoes around my house,i'm talking heaps and heaps and they must interbreed to some degree,and with the huge numbers or say very dense population never once have i seenan albino one...like i said just another thought :idea:


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

they get eaten before you see them.. natural selection against a recessive trait maintains it only in its het form. On the odd occasion that two hets meet and do the wild thing and albinos are produced they are usually eaten as they stand out like a sore thumb. then again if they lived in the snow LOL it would become the more prominint phenotype.

Saxon


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## BROWNS (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> they get eaten before you see them.. natural selection against a recessive trait maintains it only in its het form. On the odd occasion that two hets meet and do the wild thing and albinos are produced they are usually eaten as they stand out like a sore thumb. then again if they lived in the snow LOL it would become the more prominint phenotype.
> 
> Saxon


Yep that's the case with most wc? albinos but some such as the albino rbbs and many US albinos were wild caught at breeding size.

Believe me i see thousands of geckos of all sizes and kept the tiniest ones as pets at times over the years as a youngster and yes they are cannabalistic, but i doubt an albino would stand out like a sore thumb as everything about them screams albino except the eyes and also when they blend in to the colour of a certain place they're resting on.


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## Retic (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

In the case of the Asian House gecko for instance as they are very pale would an albino stand out as much as say an albino carpet ? I know the answer sounds obvious but my point is that with an animal that is very pale anyway an albino is probably only slightly more likely to be picked off early.

I guess I repeated much of what you said, the posts must have passed on the way in


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## BROWNS (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Yep glad you see what i mean


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

well some form of natural selection, whether it be eaten or effects from the sun or somthing else keeps albinos rare.If the selction is removed like in a controlled environment created by us albino % can be brought up to 100%. if in some case the albinism or other recessive traits are not selected against the rate of occurance would be increased. blue eyes in humans is a good example of a recessive trait that has not been selected against or albino rats in captivity both not excatly rare but a recessive trait none the less. remember recessive traits are nearly impossible to breed out of a population.However dominant allels are very easily selected against and can be bred out very quickly. 

a little to think about
Saxon


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

my point is somthing must be or has in the past selected against the albino trait in the gex. but the recessive gene will still be there. just a matter of time before someone finds one or breeds one.


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## geckodan (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> I am not convinced that hets carry any visible 'hints' as to their potential. It doesn't seem to be the case and being a recessive trait I can't see why there would be any visible signs. I suppose it is possible that certain species could be more prone to this and would possibly only manifest itself in an abnormality perhaps ?



This does occur in some bird species with many mutations. Often nothing more than a pale patch of feathers. No reason at all it could not be the same for a herp ( Some examples - "Lutino" (not a true lutino) Rainbow lorikeets - hets have red streaks through the blue of the head,
Pied (piebald) cockateils - hets have a white patch behind the crest.)


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

no reason that could not happen with a dominant or co-dominant trait but wont happen with a recessive trait


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## geckodan (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> no reason that could not happen with a dominant or co-dominant trait but wont happen with a recessive trait



I agree, most of the indicator hets occur with mutations that spread across multiple alleles. Based on this should we be led to believe that if an indicator factor was present in the Bedfords "albino" olive then it was not in fact a true albino but actually an extreme reverse piebald with multiple alleles being expressed. Did the albino olive have red eyes.? Do all true albino herps have red eyes?


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2005)

*Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Gavin's Albino's were completely white and had red eyes and are true albinos by any definition.

I suppose the question begging for an answer here is something like: "Are some dominant traits more likely with the recessive Albino trait?"

In relation to the current Black Headed's it is the potential het offspring that are showing the morphological differences. Nothing has yet been said about the definite hets, ie the parents of the clutch photographed.



geckodan said:


> > no reason that could not happen with a dominant or co-dominant trait but wont happen with a recessive trait
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, most of the indicator hets occur with mutations that spread across multiple alleles. Based on this should we be led to believe that if an indicator factor was present in the Bedfords "albino" olive then it was not in fact a true albino but actually an extreme reverse piebald with multiple alleles being expressed. Did the albino olive have red eyes.? Do all true albino herps have red eyes?


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## geckodan (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Thanks Judy.
I suppose without definitive DNA typing there will always be more questions than answers. Oh. wouldn't it be nice to drop a spot of blood on a test and have it come up het or not het.


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## BROWNS (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> my point is somthing must be or has in the past selected against the albino trait in the gex. but the recessive gene will still be there. just a matter of time before someone finds one or breeds one.


I see your point from your first post and as you say you would thinksooner or later someone will find one which is also wat iwas getting at.


> This does occur in some bird species with many mutations. Often nothing more than a pale patch of feathers. No reason at all it could not be the same for a herp ( Some examples - "Lutino" (not a true lutino) Rainbow lorikeets - hets have red streaks through the blue of the head,
> Pied (piebald) cockateils - hets have a white patch behind the crest.)


Ecactly,it even occurs in plants and have personally see a "potplant" with half albino leaf half normal.

I hear what you're saying Danny,doyou mean that the olive being a snow or all white could be a reversed pieballed or piballed which you say has expressed more white or albino genes?I'm sure the albino didn't have red eyes ,but reclla pic of a hatchling one and they were pink can't recall what colour the Adults eyes were.Could that also be classed as leucistic ?I've bred lutino ringnecks and yes different forms of albinism have different coloured eyes not just red.The caramel albino childreni are a good example with orange eyes.


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Actually it is Daavid (HerpTrader) - avitar a gecko

Judy connects as "trader" - avitar a mermaid (well this week at least)



geckodan said:


> Thanks Judy.
> I suppose without definitive DNA typing there will always be more questions than answers. Oh. wouldn't it be nice to drop a spot of blood on a test and have it come up het or not het.



Ooo Yes. A simple test would be great. Who knows such a test may not be all that far off.


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## geckodan (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Actually it is Daavid (HerpTrader) - avitar a gecko


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## geckodan (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

whoops, wrong button


> Actually it is Daavid (HerpTrader) - avitar a gecko


 
Isn't that Judy's arm in your avatar


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Actualy my avitar is from the photo on Jude's back ;-)


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## steve6610 (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> Do all true albino herps have red eyes?



not sure about all herps, but i know albino mice have black eyes, so it's possible to have albino's without red or pink eyes, 

cheers,
steve........


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## BROWNS (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

That's leucistic isn't it,rarer even than amelanism?


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Albinos all have red eyes. they have no pigment. leustic means white.


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

not all bright red but lack any pigment


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## steve6610 (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> That's leucistic isn't it,rarer even than amelanism?



i'm not sure what that means, lol, but my guess is that you mean that the albino with black eyes is rarer then the red eyed ones, as you know we breed thousands of mice every year and i've never bred any albino mice ( black eyed ones ), i even bought some a couple years back and over the time we lost the strain, and even thought we cross our babies between them selves we have never bred any since the ofspring from the first ones died off

cheers,
steve........


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2005)

*Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Hence pink because of the colour of the blood showing through.



saxon said:


> not all bright red but lack any pigment


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2005)

*Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Keh???

White mice with black eyes are not albino... just white mice with black eyes.

(Hey I am a white bloke with white hair but blue eyes and I am not albino 8) )



steve6610 said:


> > Do all true albino herps have red eyes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## steve6610 (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> White mice with black eyes are not albino... just white mice with black eyes.



hi,
that might be so, but this was told to me by a lady who bred mice and rats in brissy for years, i'm only going on her advice,
but i ask you a question, have you ever bred a white mouse with black eyes from your normal mice, if they weren't albinos, how come i have never bred one from my black and white mice, i get lots of black mice, why not the other way, 
and if i'm right, are the quacks that everybody talk about all white with pink eyes, these are a breed of swedish mice? not albino, but i'm not up on these mice as we got them once and they didn't do any better then our normal mice...... 
i'll await your reply.....

cheers,
steve........


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## steve6610 (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> (Hey I am a white bloke with white hair but blue eyes and I am not albino )



that might be right, but i bet your parents were the same colour as you, if you were white with white hair and blue eyes and your parents were black, what would you be then.....


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

The mice that are white are white not albinos. some animals lack chromatophores which are the cells which cary pigment in the skin . this might be the case in your mice. Albinos do not produce pigment so they can not have black eyes.


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## NCHERPS (Jun 21, 2005)

*Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



saxon said:


> Albinos all have red eyes. they have no pigment. leustic means white.



You can get tyrosinase-positive albinism(T+), and they appear not to have red eyes like the tyrosinase-negative(T-) albino's we are all familiar with.
Examples of these have been found in Blood pythons and Childrens pythons.

Neil


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## BROWNS (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Leucistic is an all white animal with black eyes and can also apparently be blue which was pointed out about the 2 albino maccys found around Townsville.Have no idea on the genetics but you would think that now 2 being found the traitis obviously in the wild and there has to be normal looking animals carrying the gene which make it to breeding size just like any other maccy.

The same can be said about the albino bhp as there would have to have been hets in the clutch it came from so in saying that i'm not pointing the finger and saying albinos can't just pop up in captive bred animals but it seems to be one or 2 cases which who knows are for real or not.So without pointing the finger at all the chances of breeding an albino would be much better odds if you went and collected every maccy in Townsville around whhere the what i thought were the albinos but was told by a guy who saw one and said it had blue eyes so as pointed out leucistic, and i would think the chances of breeding an albino from them would by far outweigh the chances of breeding one in captivity and the same would apply to the albino bhp?????


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

Probably a bastard but not albino ;-)



steve6610 said:


> > (Hey I am a white bloke with white hair but blue eyes and I am not albino )
> 
> 
> 
> that might be right, but i bet your parents were the same colour as you, if you were white with white hair and blue eyes and your parents were black, what would you be then.....


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## steve6610 (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



> Probably a illegitimate child but not albino



roflmgo
what can i say to that, lol, 

cheers,
steve...........


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## saxon (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

still reduced they wont have black eyes if they have type 2 which you are talking about


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## NCHERPS (Jun 21, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*



saxon said:


> still reduced they wont have black eyes if they have type 2 which you are talking about



Your right, But I was just stating that not all albino's have red eyes as you first stated.
Sorry, I know I can be picky ! LOL! :wink: 

Neil


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## Scale_Addiction (Jun 21, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: I remembered -- albino tegus!*

fark... i really love those albinos... 

...*drool*... *more drool* ...


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2005)

Just a crow call hey Aztec! :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2005)

*RE: White on tongue? May well be a marker!*

so rock can u honestly sit there an tell us that u have never done anything dishonest in ur life?


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## snappy (Mar 26, 2007)

*That's cool*

*The most beutaful snake i'v ever seen.  *​


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## Chris1 (Mar 26, 2007)

no way! theyre amazing!!!


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## mickousley (Mar 26, 2007)

very nice indeed good to see god pics 
Mikck


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## liasis (Mar 26, 2007)

firstly that is the most awsome snake i have ever seen secondly i dont think it is very fair that other countries can keep australian snakes which have been smuggled out of australia illegaly and have colour morphs that we dont even have good work though


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## junglepython2 (Mar 26, 2007)

When most snakes were imported out I don't believe it was illegal, albino darwins on the other hand..........


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