# WARNING For People Lending Snakes As Breeding Loans



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 5, 2011)

Just a warning for aps members to be extremely careful when lending animals to friends/family for breeding projects or loans etc...

As I've just been caught out with lending 4 of my snakes as a breeding loan to someone I thought I could trust. But now it seems this 
person has decided my animals are too good to return and is keeping them.

Yep... done the police thing and they can't do anything as they refused them entry onto their home, so the police said to call nsw parks & 
wildlife, called them including qld parks and neither of them can do anything even with proof of ownership (movement advices etc), and 
they just keep passing the buck by stating this should be a matter for the nsw police... what the?

So at the moment I'm asking myself... if I borrowed someone's reptiles for a breeding loan, took them back to my house, kept putting off 
the correct paperwork that needed to be filled/signed and returned to parks and wildlife, decided to keep the reptiles and even if the 
original owner of the reptiles could prove that they were only lent as a breeding loan to me, has the paperwork to prove they are his 
animals and do not belong to me, there is nothing the police or wildlife services can do?

After a month now, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I'm never going to see my animals again. I've exhausted every avenue 
and it's like there is a technical hitch in the law that does not allow me to get back what is rightfully mine. 

So please be careful people, I'd hate to see or hear of this happening to anyone else.

This has now got me asking about the paperwork we religously fill out (the only means we have to prove a certain reptile belongs to us) 
everytime we sell or move a reptile to another address or buyer, this is meant to prove you and/or the seller are the rightful owners/sellers, 
so in a situation like this... it's worth what???


----------



## Tassie97 (Oct 5, 2011)

that is awful


----------



## junglepython2 (Oct 5, 2011)

You would have to take it to one of the courts to prove ownership I'd think.


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 5, 2011)

What the hell?!
First of all sorry you are in this situation,. that really sucks! 
But what do you mean too good to return so they are keeping your reptiles?
What does this person say when you contact them about returning your animals?


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 5, 2011)

That sucks mate, totally ridiculous that they wont do anything about it. Whats the point in the paperwork or licence when they don't even use it as evidence or act upon it.


----------



## kawasakirider (Oct 5, 2011)

Bugger that, mate. I'd be inclined to force entry and take what is mine (and nothing else). I know it's not legal, but the court process would be so stressful and costly. Sorry to hear that.


----------



## hurcorh (Oct 5, 2011)

that is so sad to here. if i was you, i'd get it done personally. if you catch my drift......


----------



## snakes123 (Oct 5, 2011)

That is horrible! i was going to lend my Hypo Levis on a breeding loan, but the guy moved, so i supose that was good in a way that i didnt have to rish the animal.

Now im sure the person who kept your animals will see this so GIVE HIS 4 SNAKES BACK!! HE WAS BEING NICE AND TOOK THE RISK AND TRUSTED YOU, THE LEAST YOU COULD DO NOW IS GIVE THEM BACK!


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 5, 2011)

They won't return the calls/msgs etc and have now threatened an avo if I keep contacting them.

Should not have to go through a court or that expense for something like this, it should be just cut and clean.


----------



## AirCooled (Oct 5, 2011)

step one,Drop in for coffee,you get invited in,step two take snakes,what can they charge you with?,no B & E,can't get charged for stealing your own snakes


----------



## NaughtyByNature (Oct 5, 2011)

That is awful, I hope guilt or shame get to them and they return them Jungleman


----------



## Emilie (Oct 5, 2011)

Hire some big dude to go get them back


----------



## kupper (Oct 5, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> They won't return the calls/msgs etc and have now threatened an avo if I keep contacting them.
> 
> Should not have to go through a court or that expense for something like this, it should be just cut and clean.



pretty sure AVO is a court appearance at some point , not something this person would want to consider given he technicality of theft on his part


----------



## traceylee (Oct 5, 2011)

That's horrible 
How can people be so downright nasty 
I can't even begin to comprehend how awful this must be for you; I'd be a wreck if anyone took my animals like that.


----------



## -Peter (Oct 5, 2011)

You need to get proper legal advice.


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Oct 5, 2011)

I hear you Wayne.
Hope you get your pythons back.

I dont do breeding loans anymore either .


----------



## AirCooled (Oct 5, 2011)

Get other friends and family who have seen snakes and also know you lent them to sign stat decs,MA's for ownership,any photos or records for further proof,basically any evidence of previous ownership then pursue civil action with stress and legal fees on top.They bark at you with AVO,you bite with big scarey legal letter of intent to sue.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 5, 2011)

how rude!!

rock up athis house with a few big mates at like 3am,...park in his driveway, and leave ur hand on the horn till he comes out,..byu this stage all the neighbours should be out too and you will have a huge angry audience to tell ur story to,...keep beeping and beeping and beeping,.....

have pillowcases ready so once everyone is pijssed off enough u can bag ur snakes and take them home,...

if it doesnt work, repeat daily (or more nightly) till you get ur way.....
with any luck the neighbours will break in and steal ur snakes back forl u is this tosser still isnt willing to do the right thing.


other than breaking in to steal them back i cant think of anythign else since the 'right way' isnt working,...


----------



## Tildy (Oct 5, 2011)

They got buckleys and none of getting an avo as you havent physically threatened them. The best they could possibly do is harrassment and they would still have to get the police involved in which case you can hit them back with theft. Just make sure that you dont write or say anything stupidly threatening to them like you're going to hurt them or kill them or make them sorry etc. and you will be sweet. Tell them to go right ahead and call the police because you would just love to tell the cops about how they stole your property.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 5, 2011)

also, rock up to their work place and call them thieves, if you see them in public yell loudly that everyone should hang on to their belobngings tas there is a THEIF in their midst etc,...embarrass the hell out of tehm, what dispicable people!!


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 5, 2011)

Geez Wayne, that blows. Give me a shout if you need to!


----------



## prettypython (Oct 5, 2011)

Maybe get in touch with a laywer to write a letter. See where it goes from there. Photos and microchips would come in handy to have at your first appt. Maybe even hire a bayliff. I personally would be in court tommorow.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 5, 2011)

got any old sheds for DNA?


----------



## Snowman (Oct 5, 2011)

Similar to this thread http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/breeding-loan-mix-124619/
I think anything you loan you have to realise there is a very real risk you will never see it again. Or in the same condition....


----------



## kawasakirider (Oct 5, 2011)

Send him some texts without the threat of legal action. Say things like "Mate, can I please have the snakes back, I want to keep our friendship intact, so if you could give me the snakes back I'd appreciate it"

Then when he replies, if he acknowledges he has your snakes, go straight to the police.


----------



## Eddie2257 (Oct 5, 2011)

id just break in when hes not there. put the window screen back on so he cant find a point of entry and if he calls the cops you will have the snakes in your paper work and he wont so you couldent of stole anything and he looks like an idiot?


----------



## Australis (Oct 5, 2011)

Chris1 said:


> got any old sheds for DNA?



I don't mean to single you out Chris1, but i am :lol: 
What would DNA give evidence of? 

And to everyone else banging on about proof of previous possession. It doesn't seem to be in question that Jungleman was once in ownership of the animals.

Unless im missing something here.. and no m/a got done e_e


----------



## Sel (Oct 5, 2011)

Wow, thats awful.
I dont understand how anyone could do that..

Is there anything you can blackmail him with? Say like you call him and say...If you dont bring my snakes back, this is going to happen...as in the police will be visiting him, or maybe some gangsters lol no seriously..is there anything else you can get him in trouble for?
If nothing and you want them back, id just go and take them back ..


----------



## FAY (Oct 5, 2011)

This is why Tilly Devine and Kate Leigh were mortal enemies for life. Over a dog that Kate lent Tilly, but she did give her dog back...but NOT the same one.
No way in the world would I lend my stuff for a breeding loan.


----------



## elogov (Oct 5, 2011)

FAY said:


> This is why Tilly Devine and Kate Leigh were mortal enemies for life. Over a dog that Kate lent Tilly, but she did give her dog back...but NOT the same one.
> No way in the world would I lend my stuff for a breeding loan.



Sorry who?, 

My condolences wayne, It's unfortunate that people take advantage of good people.


----------



## Bandit05 (Oct 5, 2011)

Your only hope is to take them to court and you will have to prove that they are in the wrong ( the old presumed innocent until proven guilty protects wrong doers Im afraid ), Im not sure what the laws are in your state but normally you have to give written notification that if the snakes are not returned within two weeks legal action will taken, after such time depending on the laws of your state you can pick up your snakes ( you may either need a bailiff or police officer with you). If you cant get them then you will have to pursue it through the courts. Most government agencies will do nothing to help Im afraid.
Good Luck and Im sorry you have to go through this.


----------



## Colin (Oct 5, 2011)

hope it goes well for you wayne and your animals are returned safely..


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

Jungleman is my husband and these are my snakes and lizards also and it is family that has done this! I am sooo stressed out over this and have called every known avenue only to be told call the police no call NSWPW. Even I have been told that if I make contact or turn up to get what is legally mine I will be 1: charged & 2: slapped with an AVO.............
The person that is licensed does not even live at the address where the Reptiles are being kept and yes the person that is living there is not licensed and I am pretty sure there are some gravid snakes and also a whole lot of animals that have not been cleaned, feed or watered in over 4 weeks....


----------



## eitak (Oct 5, 2011)

elogov said:


> Sorry who?,
> 
> My condolences wayne, It's unfortunate that people take advantage of good people.



Drug lords/madams from the 1920's/30's


----------



## Sel (Oct 5, 2011)

jewelz said:


> Jungleman is my husband and these are my snakes and lizards also and it is family that has done this! I am sooo stressed out over this and have called every known avenue only to be told call the police no call NSWPW. Even I have been told that if I make contact or turn up to get what is legally mine I will be 1: charged & 2: slapped with an AVO.............
> The person that is licensed does not even live at the address where the Reptiles are being kept and yes the person that is living there is not licensed and I am pretty sure there are some gravid snakes and also a whole lot of animals that have not been cleaned, feed or watered in over 4 weeks....



Thats soo wrong 
So what happens if NPWS goes to that house, finds he has no licence for the animals and confiscates them? You wont even know where they will go..

Just lie to them and say police are coming unless i can take my animals back today..
Good luck..hope you get them back


----------



## traceylee (Oct 5, 2011)

elogov said:


> Sorry who?,
> 
> My condolences wayne, It's unfortunate that people take advantage of good people.


 
Underbelly: razor 



jewelz said:


> Jungleman is my husband and these are my snakes and lizards also and it is family that has done this! I am sooo stressed out over this and have called every known avenue only to be told call the police no call NSWPW. Even I have been told that if I make contact or turn up to get what is legally mine I will be 1: charged & 2: slapped with an AVO.............
> The person that is licensed does not even live at the address where the Reptiles are being kept and yes the person that is living there is not licensed and I am pretty sure there are some gravid snakes and also a whole lot of animals that have not been cleaned, feed or watered in over 4 weeks....


 
How stressful for you both  I really hope you get them back soon


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

Sel said:


> Thats soo wrong
> So what happens if NPWS goes to that house, finds he has no licence for the animals and confiscates them? You wont even know where they will go..
> 
> Just lie to them and say police are coming unless i can take my animals back today..
> Good luck..hope you get them back




Sel, we have done all of this to no avail and the person that is in the house won't let us pick them up either, they are both family. We got him them into reptiles and purchased them their very first pair of Hypo Bredli and this is how we get rewarded..........


----------



## snakes123 (Oct 5, 2011)

jewelz said:


> Sel, we have done all of this to no avail and the person that is in the house won't let us pick them up either, they are both family. We got him them into reptiles and purchased them their very first pair of Hypo Bredli and this is how we get rewarded..........



That is actually so bad, i feel really bad for you.


----------



## elogov (Oct 5, 2011)

traceylee said:


> Underbelly: razor



Haha thanks not really up to date with T.V programs these days,

Jewelz my heart truly goes out to you guys, you have been such a pleasure to deal with.


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 5, 2011)

I still cant comprehend exactly what is going on in this guys mind,. especially as you say he is family or good friends or what ever the relationship.
When he craps on about the AVO have you told him you are quite happy to leave him alone once he gives your animals back you want nothing to do with him.
I cant imagine what his argument is for not returning them?
He obviously knows he is in the wrong and they are not his snakes to keep,. what is his argument?

Surely if he is unlicensed National Parks can do something?
How is it that they can come & randomly knock on well respected Breeders doors and go poking around but they cant investigate this dodgey pest & get your snakes back that this guy is keeping illegally & unlicensed?

Must be extremely frustrating for you guys,. I am getting hot & angry just reading this,. so I can only imagine how you guys feel.
I really hope you get them back,.

What do you think he would do if you busted into his house & just took them back?
Is he a big fella?

If you cant get them back legally or if he is not going to hand them over without a fight Unfortunately you may have to take the law into your own hands as others have already suggested,. do you know any scary guys or bikers or something?
AVO? ppfffttt


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

elogov said:


> Haha thanks not really up to date with T.V programs these days,
> 
> Jewelz my heart truly goes out to you guys, you have been such a pleasure to deal with.



Thanks elogov, we are shattered to say the least. If I did not have a daughter O/S I would risk the charges and AVO, but if I get hit with either and I need to go O/S I cannot leave the country with an AVO against me, and to make it worse these people are aware of this...........


----------



## SteveNT (Oct 5, 2011)

Shame you dont live in Darwin, these types of issues are sorted very quickly up here, and without recourse to cops or lawyers.
Good luck with it.


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

Gecko :) said:


> I still cant comprehend exactly what is going on in this guys mind,. especially as you say he is family or good friends or what ever the relationship.
> When he craps on about the AVO have you told him you are quite happy to leave him alone once he gives your animals back you want nothing to do with him.
> I cant imagine what his argument is for not returning them?
> He obviously knows he is in the wrong and they are not his snakes to keep,. what is his argument?
> ...



Gecko, the named person is licensed and is immediate family, he has moved out and the person left in the house where the animals are kept is not a licensed retile keeper and really can't stand reptiles.......NSWPW advised me today that where the animals are being kept is the address that appears on the license.....even though the licensee no longer lives there......I don't understand.....


----------



## pharskie (Oct 5, 2011)

mate if it was me i would go round there with a nice wad of cash and say look i want to buy my animals back off you and as soon as they let you in just walk to where they are kept and take them back. Take a leatherman set of plyers incase the dick has locks on the enclosure, and atleast then dont have a weapon. I think a good old fashon "falling down the stairs" on the way out would be nice too.


----------



## keggah (Oct 5, 2011)

Hey mate,

I'm currently working and studying in criminal law and you are technically allowed to break into the blokes house and retrieve the animals. This is under the doctrine of 'honest claim of right'

Check out the case of _Fuge_ regarding an honest clam of right.

You just have to ensure you take the EXACT amount that you gave, and exhaust all avenues of trying to recover them legally- get proof of this.


Disclaimer: any advice i have provided should not be solely relied on


----------



## FAY (Oct 5, 2011)

Jewlzz, Maybe explain to the authorities what has happened. Also let them know that this person who is left in the house is afraid of the animals so they WILL NOT be fed or kept clean.
Surely, any authority would have to investigate this further as an emergency situation..






jewelz said:


> Gecko, the named person is licensed and is immediate family, he has moved out and the person left in the house where the animals are kept is not a licensed retile keeper and really can't stand reptiles.......NSWPW advised me today that where the animals are being kept is the address that appears on the license.....even though the licensee no longer lives there......I don't understand.....


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

FAY said:


> Jewlzz, Maybe explain to the authorities what has happened. Also let them know that this person who is left in the house is afraid of the animals so they WILL NOT be fed or kept clean.
> Surely, any authority would have to investigate this further as an emergency situation..



Fay, I have done all of the above and some...... I am doing all of this while juggling a high pressure job....


----------



## Ozzie Python (Oct 5, 2011)

That is absolutely ******* house news Wayne. i would have thought as the paperwork states breeding loan derm could do something. if they were my animals id be sorting it myself without involving the law, but then i suppose you'd then be the poor innocent party being charged... i certainly hope it is not who i think it is, such a shame when you can't even trust family. hope you get them back mate.


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

Ozzie Python said:


> That is absolutely ******* house news Wayne. i would have thought as the paperwork states breeding loan derm could do something. if they were my animals id be sorting it myself without involving the law, but then i suppose you'd then be the poor innocent party being charged... i certainly hope it is not who i think it is, such a shame when you can't even trust family. hope you get them back mate.



Ozzie, it probably is who you think and I am truly ashamed of the said person.........


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 5, 2011)

jewelz said:


> Gecko, the named person is licensed and is immediate family, he has moved out and the person left in the house where the animals are kept is not a licensed retile keeper and really can't stand reptiles.......NSWPW advised me today that where the animals are being kept is the address that appears on the license.....even though the licensee no longer lives there......I don't understand.....



Thanks for clarifying,.

So wheres the joker that is suppose to be looking after the snakes gone? & what does he actually say when you ask for them back?

Did the police confirm that he would be able to put an AVO on you for trying to contact him to get your property back?
I cant see how an AVO would even come into play?

Best of luck Darl


----------



## moose (Oct 5, 2011)

elogov said:


> Sorry who?,
> 
> My condolences wayne, It's unfortunate that people take advantage of good people.



What! Tilly and Kate are now famous!

You mentioned that you had called the police, my suggestion would be to take it a little further with the police and talk to a more senior officer, remember ALL allegations MUST be investigated regardless of the circumstances, and if this doesnt work go straight to your local political member. I am not kidding as you would be amazed as to what can be acheived through this avenue.

Moose


----------



## Scleropages (Oct 5, 2011)

I would get in the car , drive down there and get the snakes back before the cops are called- altho I would prob end up in jail with the amount of anger I would have towards them if they did that to me, that's just crap and no one should put up with it.
I wouldn't ring , just rock up on their door , very angry!

On a better note I just loaned someone two of my snakes for breeding and they have been returned with no probs at all , so not everyone is bad/untrustworthy.

I hope you get your snakes back.


----------



## DeadCricket (Oct 5, 2011)

moose said:


> What! Tilly and Kate are now famous!
> 
> You mentioned that you had called the police, my suggestion would be to take it a little further with the police and talk to a more senior officer, remember ALL allegations MUST be investigated regardless of the circumstances, and if this doesnt work go straight to your local political member. I am not kidding as you would be amazed as to what can be acheived through this avenue.
> 
> Moose


 
I agree. This is theft, its irrelevant what was stolen. Excluding a property deed, every verbal agreement is law binding in australia... Plus, you have paperwork to back it up. Don't give up on your snakes


----------



## lizardman59 (Oct 5, 2011)

get your mates to dress up as cops go up there and tell him i told you they would come he will probs pee his pants and come running out with the snakes


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

Thank you sooo much to everyone for all of your support.....It's nice to know that people care


----------



## Bluetonguesblack (Oct 5, 2011)

Paybacks are a bitch.


----------



## Tildy (Oct 5, 2011)

Seriously, they cannot get an apprehended violence order against you unless you have exhibited physically violent behaviour towards them. It cannot be done. I would get legal advice to double check that but Im pretty sure. My sisters have had cause to get those and they don't hand them out like candy (they are about as useful as candy in a bad situation but thats another story). They are crying AVO because they know its the deterrent that will hold u in place the quickest but its a bluff. If you are only asking for your snakes back they cannot get an avo.


----------



## Colin (Oct 5, 2011)

jewelz said:


> Gecko, the named person is licensed and is immediate family, he has moved out and the person left in the house where the animals are kept is not a licensed retile keeper and really can't stand reptiles.......NSWPW advised me today that where the animals are being kept is the address that appears on the license.....even though the licensee no longer lives there......I don't understand.....



leanne Im messaging wayne with the name and phone number of a guy at DECC licensing. hes always helped me and if you explain the situation he may have some advice. best of luck guys


----------



## keggah (Oct 5, 2011)

check this site for the honest claim of right it's gold and a nice handy one to get the jerk back

Defence to stealing - Honest claim of right


----------



## Bandit05 (Oct 5, 2011)

jewelz said:


> The person that is licensed does not even live at the address where the Reptiles are being kept and yes the person that is living there is not licensed and I am pretty sure there are some gravid snakes and also a whole lot of animals that have not been cleaned, feed or watered in over 4 weeks....



Ring whatever your version of RSPCA is and report the neglected animals, dont mention you own the snakes or they will think you are after payback, try and get a few friends to put in a report also


----------



## noved (Oct 5, 2011)

seeing as how they are immediate family call there mum


----------



## Smithers (Oct 5, 2011)

That's such a sad story I so feel for you guys, hope you get a quick painless result in your favour,

All the very best

Brett


----------



## Colin (Oct 5, 2011)

wayne and leanne.. why doesnt the family member (I know who it is) have the guts to go back in the house and get the snakes out for you.. if the police come and arrest him for breaking an AVO so be it.. its the right thing to do I reckon and its the least he could do to try to sort it out for you guys under the circumstances.. call him and put it on him.


----------



## whyme (Oct 5, 2011)

Have'nt read every thread so sorry if this has been said. What would the AVO be approved for. "Whoever" is going to have a hard time getting that. Secondly, if you've handed your reps over willingly, the theft issue is a no go. It will probably fall back on you for not providing license details and recording them. Best thing you could do, I'll leave it up to your imagination. I hope it all works out for you.


----------



## Greenmad (Oct 5, 2011)

Hope it all works out wayne and leanne for you guys. I hope he has a change of heart.


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

noved said:


> seeing as how they are immediate family call there mum



noved, I am the said person's Mum.....



Greenmad said:


> Hope it all works out wayne and leanne for you guys. I hope he has a change of heart.



Ryan, thanks so much for your support, he has just sent us a message saying "go **** yourselves" ...



Colin said:


> wayne and leanne.. why doesnt the family member (I know who it is) have the guts to go back in the house and get the snakes out for you.. if the police come and arrest him for breaking an AVO so be it.. its the right thing to do I reckon and its the least he could do to try to sort it out for you guys under the circumstances.. call him and put it on him.



Colin, we are the ones that have been threatened with charges and an AVO if we go down there, and the person has not go a conscience or guts for that matter...


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 5, 2011)

Thanks for all your support guys. I only put this thread up to protect others from making the same mistake, and I'm shocked to see how many others have been burnt 
and won't lend animals out etc. 

What is the world coming too when your own family even turns on you?

Thanks Colin, guts? that doesn't exist mate with the said person, his scared of her and doesn't want to rock the boat (so to speak) not even for the safety or well-being 
of not only his own animals but ours also.

I'm not even sure that I want the snakes back now, as I just found out he has wild caught carpets that are not on the books. I would not take the risk in even quarantining 
them. Sounds like a sad loss on our end, but I hope others learn from this.

Thanks again everyone for the support and suggestions... even the one's with muscle bound do or die antics lol.


----------



## Eddie2257 (Oct 5, 2011)

i know he is family but what about name and shame it works wonders on this site? 

_its against the rules - moderator_


----------



## jewelz (Oct 5, 2011)

Eddie2257 said:


> i know he is family but what about name and shame it works wonders on this site?



I would love too, but he is a member on here and I don't want to get an infraction...


----------



## nico77 (Oct 5, 2011)

That is [email protected] , pm me the address and a few photos , I reckon a few mates would be keen on knocking on the door , they wouldn't know who we are so they would open the door for us to force our way in and get them back , if you go and watch a movie or have lunch some where you won't be able to get the blame . It's not the legal way but pricks like that deserve it . I hope you get them back .

I had a house mate that disappeared to his new girl friends house for 2 months , when he came to get his stuff we said not till you pay your owed rent , so he came back with the police and they made us let him in for his stuff . If you tell the police your snakes are there and they won't let you in they should escort you into the house .
Good luck
Nico


----------



## ravan (Oct 5, 2011)

-Peter said:


> You need to get proper legal advice.



what he said. 

go in to the police station and make sure you make a claim - police officers are lazy (*disclaimer, not ALL, just most)... they want to get rid of you as quickly as possible... it just means more paperwork for them, and they dont get paid anymore or any less if you do make a claim. 

bypass the guy at the desk, make sure you speak to the head person in charge. 

i work in a law firm, and we recently had a case where one of our clients accidentally paid one of his employees, then that employee got fired. they then realised the overpayment, and he told them to get stuffed, he wasnt getting it back. 

after being told to get lost by the police officer and try and work it out themselves, our client filed a complaint with the head officer in charge at the time, once we had evidence of that claim, we sent the former employee a letter of demand, saying there would be legal action if he didnt return the money.
he **** himself and has made a payment plan to pay it back....


----------



## DeadCricket (Oct 5, 2011)

If its your son, just go get him. He have an older brother? I would certainly smack my kid brother around the head, hard, probably more than once, if he treated my mother like that


----------



## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

I feel so sorry for what you are both experiencing. There is nothing right about this situation and it is made even more offensive because of the relationship with these people and how generous you were to lend them the animals.

You probably need legal advice if want to go to court to recover your belongings from somebody who is illegally holding them, and the police have not been able to help you to retrieve them. Contact legal aid for some advice or your lawyer. 
If someone is illegally holding your property, you should contact the police. If the police agree it is a criminal matter they will retrieve your property (Done but no luck there). 

Otherwise; 

You can take steps yourself to retrieve it as long as you do not commit any offence by doing so e.g. trespass, breaking and entering, damage to property, assault. Even if it is not recognised as a criminal matter, you can ask the police to come with you. They attend to make sure that a breach of the peace does not occur but cannot intervene to get your property back.

If this is not successful, you would need to go to court to get an order to return your property. Contact your local district court to find out what form/s you need to submit (file) to start proceedings (most are available to download electronically).

Once a court order has been has been issued for the return of your property you can involve the Bailiffs office to service the order issued by the court. Being reptiles you will need to arrange to be there to assist in the retrieval of your animals.

I wish you all the best getting the situation sorted out quickly and that your animals are healthy and soon back with you where they belong.


----------



## xxMelissaxx (Oct 5, 2011)

Not a good situation - I feel for you guys.

It's certainly sad you've lost your animals, but even worse that you've lost your relationship with your son..

Hope this all resolves itself somehow eventually.


----------



## najanaja (Oct 5, 2011)

I know this whole story too and all people involved...
I explain it to the person who talked to me about this as follows...(this is just an example and never realy happened)

This is the exact cercumstances as if my father asked me to look after his dogs as he was going away for a couple of weeks..
I say yes no worries as these are his PETS and his living companions
Now in these weeks me and my wife break up and i am asked to leave the premises.
My dad come back from his trip and comes for his PETS
And my wife sayd NO you cant have your animals back..

It is just wrons mate

And not only that, where this story differes is that you were doing them the favor


----------



## nicki71 (Oct 6, 2011)

If the police wont help what about something like a current affair they always like an animal cruelty story really shame them into giving them back


----------



## Jeannine (Oct 6, 2011)

*ring the police and ask them to meet you at the address as they have property of yours they will not return and you intend to get it back, dont tell them its snakes but take paperwork with you

tell the sod to get an AVO out on you, yes it can be done where no threats of violence have been made, when it fronts up to the courts contest it then take civil action against them for their return or the monetary value of the property 

stand outside with a large sign informing everyone they have stolen property inside their house and refuse to return it, so long as your NOT on their property i doubt anything will happen. use a loud speaker to tell their neighbours they have SNAKES on their property

got a local paper? send a letter to the editor mentioning them by name and how they stole your property

camp at their front door and when the cops turn up to remove you show them the paperwork and tell them they have your stolen property and you want it returned 

jump up and down on one foot if you have to but make a lot of noise, also might pay to speak to a Detective instead of a general duties cop
*


----------



## Leardy (Oct 6, 2011)

jewelz said:


> Fay, I have done all of the above and some...... I am doing all of this while juggling a high pressure job....[/QUOT
> well if this person is family why dont u get another family member not related to the insident to just call in one day and take them


----------



## Em1986 (Oct 6, 2011)

All i can say is that this is the rudest, stupidest, and the most darn right disrespectful situation i have read about on here!
What makes it worse is that the authorities that are supposed to fix these situations are doing bugger all about it.
I feel for you and your wife as well as your animals that are possibly not being looked after now.
I hope that something positive comes out of this in the way of you being paid money to compensate your loss or you getting your animals back. 
Even if you need to quarantine them or keep them at a different residence in case of contamination to your collection i would still want them back as a matter of principal!!! 
They were *lent* to this person and are still rightfully yours so you should get them back any way you can.
Please keep us updated about this situation and it's progression (hopefully it does progress) and thank you so much for putting the warning out there for others. Sometimes family don't live up to what is expected of them


----------



## Rattler (Oct 6, 2011)

Spewing.


----------



## veenarm (Oct 6, 2011)

lizardman59 said:


> get your mates to dress up as cops go up there and tell him i told you they would come he will probs pee his pants and come running out with the snakes



Worst idea ever... impersonating a police officer is actually a very serious crime...


----------



## starr9 (Oct 6, 2011)

im so sorry to here this and im sorry you are going through this... I told my BF this story and we were both so shocked. Some times family can be so disrespectful to the ones they are closest 2. A very good friend said to me when i was younger " family or not respect, love and trust are all earned. You do not have to like or love them no matter if they are your mother, father, brother or sister. This is something that must grow as you do or never at all. It is not a given." Now I follow this because its what I feel. others may not agree and thats fine. I hope to here that you get your animals returned safely.


----------



## AM Pythons (Oct 6, 2011)

thank god for facebook... no name & shame rules there... sorry to here your son has done this guys.. hope you get them back in the same condition but with illegal wild court snakes there i dont think id want em back either..


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 6, 2011)

Let me offer my comiserations, and your warning has definitely been taken on board. I am very, very sorry for your loss, I understand what it's like to be hurt by a family member.
From what I understand it sounds like this woman is being very spiteful, and I know what a disappointment it would be if one of my children turned around and did something like this. I'd feel like all those years of love, sacrifice and care would have been wasted, and that's no small thing.
The fact remains, however, that you loaned the snakes to your son. There is no grey area, and all the beaurecratic bs they spout makes no difference. Your son was the lessee, not this woman, it doesn't matter what address he is living at or has on his license, regulation dictates that upon changing his address he must do so for his license. Marital property laws are tricky, depending on the time they have been together, but if she has no interest in the animals and no ability to care for them properly she cannot keep them. A licensed keeper can have their animals removed for negligence, a licensed keeper can be done for wild-caught reptiles, and whether or not you loaned them to her of your free will a loan is a loan, and a verbal agreement is just that, and most likely is recorded as well. So theft is theft.
Your local authorities are being lazy and negligent, there is no such thing as 'civil service' these days, and that's what is depressing me about this.
I can't offer you advice, you're already doing all you can, but I can add my support, as small a thing as it is. I can tell you I know how you feel, and I can tell you that your warning has been taken on board. So you've made a difference here, I just hope things work out for you in the best possible way.
Good luck.


----------



## euphorion (Oct 6, 2011)

So very sorry to hear this. When i read that he is your son i was horrified. 

Knowing that he is absolutely following this thread like a hawk;

Shame on you boy, know that we all know who you are now and are disgusted with what you have done. You have one opportunity to redeem yourself and that is to return the animals that are not yours and be suitably repentant. Failure to do this will, as you are hopefully not too stupid to realise, result in complete ostracision from this hobby and all who hold it dear.

PM'ing you guys leanne and wayne.


----------



## cwebb (Oct 6, 2011)

nicki71 said:


> If the police wont help what about something like a current affair they always like an animal cruelty story really shame them into giving them back



HAHA tracey grimshaw, exposing australias dodgey crims one story at a time


----------



## euphorion (Oct 6, 2011)

Do we know why the current occupant of the house won't allow leanne and wayne access to retrieve the animals. Surely if they arrive at the house with cops in tow, and the occupants have no interest in the animals, they will just let them in to ge them rather than get involved with the police?


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 6, 2011)

That's a horrible thing for a son to do to his parents. I hate people like that, they never appreciate what you both have done for them. Hopefully you can sort it out and get your snakes back. I fell so sorry for you both to be taken advantage of my your son.


----------



## Kah. (Oct 6, 2011)

Wow that's absolutely awful!! A similar thing happened to me where I paid for a snake and then was waiting for it to be shipped... and then snake never showed up. seller starting making excuses about not being able to ship it, then said he couldn't return the money for awhile as he had already spent it, and then avoided me. 
Fortunately my dad, who used to be a private investigator, happened to live in the same town as this jerk, tracked him down, knocked on his door and demanded the money. The threat of showing up at his work and talking to his boss about the theft also helped. No one likes a scene made at their work infront of their co-workers and boss!


----------



## waruikazi (Oct 6, 2011)

Just gonna put this out there. 

Maybe just slow down a little? Let your son and his ex have a little cooling time and sort some stuff out, then try again. 

Is a bunch of snakes really worth a family feud?


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 6, 2011)

Gordo stealing someones snakes will definitely create a family fued.


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 6, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Just gonna put this out there.
> 
> Maybe just slow down a little? Let your son and his ex have a little cooling time and sort some stuff out, then try again.
> 
> Is a bunch of snakes really worth a family feud?



I see where you're coming from, and for my part I'd take that philosophical stance myself, but it doesn't erase the hurt. I've been screwed by family before, very close family, someone who I would gladly give my life for and it was for a stupid reason; an abusive partner. But I put myself in her position and let it go, I also took the wrap for the wrongdoing and I'm reminded of it every few months, somehow it's still my fault and she's never admitted to her side of it or her (now) ex's side.
Net result I've lost things that were very dear to me and to the rest of my family, and I'll take that for her, but every time I'm taken to account for something that wasn't my wrongdoing it hurts like it happened yesterday. I hate to see other people going through the same thing, and at least the things I lost weren't breathing, they were heirlooms.
This woman has no right to extend what should be private pain. She is being spiteful and unreasonable. She may be hurt and angry but that doesn't justify her actions.
That said, understanding doesn't help. Words don't help. I just hope that after all is said and done everything works out the way it should.


----------



## waruikazi (Oct 6, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> Gordo stealing someones snakes will definitely create a family fued.



While this pot set tub of yoghurt is thickening i'll ad my other 2cents. 

This doesn't sound like normal theft to me. Sounds more like the ex is so pissed off at the son involved that he/she is doing anything they can to dig back at them. Hence keeping the snakes. So is it really the son stealing or is it just him being inactive? And threatening a family member with legal action, no matter who is in the right, is only gonna pis them off. Especially if they're going through a difficult breakup.

One of the two people involved are needed if a resolution in favor of getting the snakes back is going to be reached. 

Maybe you've already done this but just wait it out until the two of them have sorted themselves out. What's more impoortant, your sons well being or a few snakes?


----------



## Octane (Oct 6, 2011)

Not a lawyer but - If it was an agreement between the parties that the animals were given on *a loan it is a civil agreement.* If the animals are not returned it is a breach of the civil agreement. If the ownership or title has not been transferred an order could be sought via civil action in the courts if necessary to get the animals back.

For NSW (don't know if there is similar in other states) - 

If the problem is that the *son* *can't* go back to the house to retrieve property *due to AVO restrictions *the son or his legal representative can *apply* to the court *for a Property Recovery Order*. 
If the order is granted by a magistrate it will give the son a specified time where he will be able to access the premises to remove specific property (without breaching the AVO).

In either instance legal advice/assistance should be sought. 

Cheers
Octane


----------



## FAY (Oct 6, 2011)

Well, family at times can suck big time. Family should never do yucky things to each other, but they do. Sometimes family would never be people that you would pick for friends. Sadly, you do not have much choice in picking family members.


----------



## snakelady96 (Oct 6, 2011)

Aww thats so sad!  All my advice would basically be what has already been mentioned, but me personally id be inviting myself over, then saying i forgive them, after talking a while ask for a glass of water then id just go and take back what is rightfully mine. Like someone mentioned before id have a leatherman with me and also maybe a few big mates. Let them swear and curse at you but at the end of the day id just be happy i have back my pets  

Good luck to yous both, i hope yous get back what is rightfully yours!


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks for the support again guys.

Gordo, the longer we wait the more chance of these innocent animals being let loose into the wild were they will die anyway (as her thinking would be to get rid of the evidence and she can't be held responsible). Or even worse... they are dying a slow death of dehydration as they have not had fresh water for over a month now. Either way the more seconds that tick by the more likely hood of never seeing them again.

But Leanne and I have had some break through this afternoon... the queensland police have stepped in and taken on the responsibility of getting our animals back. And here is me never having trust in the blue boys (I can't thank them enough, they have been great). They have even contacted nsw police and nsw parks and expressed their disgust in not doing what should of been done weeks ago, and that is getting back what is rightfully ours.

Will update again if we get another break through, although we now have to arrange something for these animals to keep them well away from my own collection for at least the next 12 to 18 months (still should never of come too this).

Thanks again everyone, both Leanne and I are really overwhelmed with how much support and advise we have received from all our herping commrades on APS and even outside of APS. It's good to know we have true friends and back-up if our reptiles need it.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 6, 2011)

really happy to hear that!

i just hope theyre still in reasonably good condition and at least still had heating.


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 6, 2011)

Glad to hear that they are finally going to do something. Hopefully they are still same and well.


----------



## starr9 (Oct 6, 2011)

Good news! I hope you get them back asap and they are all fine!


----------



## Colin (Oct 6, 2011)

thats great news wayne and leanne  I really hope things move quickly for you and and a positive outcome results.. 
take care guys and stay positive.. any help you guys need or anything.. just ask.. there's plenty of good people on here who will be willing to help in any way possible... cheers


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks Colin, you've been a great help


----------



## AM Pythons (Oct 6, 2011)

clad you have some good news Wayne, hope you get your animals back..


----------



## snakes123 (Oct 6, 2011)

Well thats good, it would be nice to know when you get them back. Hope they come back safe and healthy!


----------



## euphorion (Oct 6, 2011)

WELL DONE! 

Good on you for persevering, so glad that this will get sorted out. I would be sweetening up the officers involved to help things along a little faster too.

Hurrah!


----------



## Smithers (Oct 6, 2011)

Yes!!!!!! :d Great to hear


----------



## Renenet (Oct 6, 2011)

What a cruddy situation. I share your worry about the animals if they have not been attended to properly for a month. With luck things will move a little faster now that you have some police on your side.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 6, 2011)

Make sure you keep records of all conversations with the police and get complaint numbers. That way if the Police dont act you can put in a complaint about the fact they havent acted and you have reference to what has occurred

the Police are the correct people to help you and should help you...often they are reluctant to act because the items stolen are animals and not diamond rings...and nobody was hurt......and the police will often put you off because as was rightly said earlier...they dont want the paperwork.... 

Hang in there and keep going and remember that if you arent happy you can complain to the level above and then above that !!....just be nice and polite when you inform the police you are not happy with the course of action they are failing to take and that you will complain about them if they dont follow through. I have found this approach works wonders.

Good Luck

let us know how you get on


----------



## Jungletrans (Oct 7, 2011)

Hope it all works out . Acts like this disqualify people from being treated as family . Personally I have always solved this sort of thing with a careful blend of psychology and extreme violence .


----------



## Em1986 (Oct 7, 2011)

I am really glad you guys are thinking more positively about the situation and that something is hopefully being done!
I am also glad you changed your mind about not wanting them back  I know it will be hard in regards to quarantine etc but it is better than never getting them back or never knowing what happened to them, i think that would be hard for me to deal with if i was in this situation.
So are the snakes in nsw then?


----------



## zuesowns (Oct 7, 2011)

it's a sad day when someone sacrifices a relationship for a python of $xxx......very sad.


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 7, 2011)

That's great news you two! I hope it all gets sorted to the positive for you. As much as this sad situation would allow anyway.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 7, 2011)

zuesowns said:


> it's a sad day when someone sacrifices a relationship for a python of $xxx......very sad.



id say its the son thats has 'sacrificed the relationship', even parents can only put up with so much,....


----------



## humba_jumba (Oct 7, 2011)

First of all the thief sounds like a goat... Secondly I would Today Tonight them... Not only does it bring the issue to light, it would truly show what a goat this guy is...


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 7, 2011)

humba_jumba said:


> First of all the thief sounds like a goat... Secondly I would Today Tonight them... Not only does it bring the issue to light, it would truly show what a goat this guy is...



What have you got against goats?


----------



## benjamind2010 (Oct 7, 2011)

Whoever does something like this does not deserve any animals. Let's hope his name gets pasted all over APS so that we all know who he is and can therefore avoid him and not conduct business with him  It's a simple solution, and sometimes it works wonders. I don't believe in any form of violence as for me it violates the non-aggression principle. I'd feel like doing something nasty but I would never consider it. I'd just destroy his reputation - that to me is the best punishment because when he needs us we won't be there for him so he will suffer in the end through his own sleaziness.I think the cup of coffee with a few pillowcases on hand would be the best way to do this...but beware, this guy probably doesn't observe the non-aggression principle and doing this does come with a risk of getting harmed. I know it sucks, but if it were me I'd just paste his name everywhere I go and that would be punishment enough...if I can drop by for a coffee that would be nice, but I doubt that will work, I think he knows that you would be there to take the animals.


----------



## Mayo (Oct 7, 2011)

zuesowns said:


> it's a sad day when someone sacrifices a relationship for a python of $xxx......very sad.





I'm guessing your one that see's your snake as dollar sign's and not your beloved pets


----------



## simonandtoni (Oct 7, 2011)

name them, mate so they don't stitch anyone else.
apologies - shot my mouth off too quickly...


----------



## andysnakes (Oct 7, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> What have you got against goats?



he didnt mention sheep... so chill out bro


----------



## Ozzie Python (Oct 7, 2011)

looking through this there are a lot of people who recommend violence (guilty myself- with a word of caution). never new there were so many people here that live in logan, we should all catch up and punch crap out of each other, i can see bogan fights on pay per view 

seriously, great to see the cops are on board for you both.


----------



## Jen (Oct 7, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> What have you got against goats?



Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell. 


Hope it is all settled and you get the reps back.


----------



## andysnakes (Oct 7, 2011)

i hear alot worse happens to sheep


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 7, 2011)

Just curious, I wasn't sure if goat was a new insult these days or if this fella had a personal grudge. Why would I be concerned about sheep? You seem to have a vague fixation there andy mate, I'd get that looked into 

Thanks for the clarification re: Heaven/Hell, it makes a little more sense now.

I'm glad somebody's paying attention to what's going on with the snakes, now my best wishes in patching things up with the family; hurt can make people do awful things, I hope everything turns out for the best for you guys.


----------



## Colin (Oct 8, 2011)

no naming on the forums... against the rules.. private message the OP if you want to know.


----------



## Allan (Oct 8, 2011)

I hope everything works out for you in the end. You shouldn't have to worry too much about the fact that there are wild caught animals in the collection. Sure, there might be internal parasites involved, but they are reasonably easy to eradicate these days. There are far more nasties circulating in private collections than you'll find in wild snake.



Jungleman said:


> I'm not even sure that I want the snakes back now, as I just found out he has wild caught carpets that are not on the books. I would not take the risk in even quarantining
> them.
> QUOTE]


----------



## wokka (Oct 8, 2011)

Allan said:


> There are far more nasties circulating in private collections than you'll find in wild snake.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]


What makes you say that? Whilst i agree that exposure to wild snakes is not likely to cause health problems I am not aware of any evidence that captive snakes have worse health problems than wild snakes.


----------



## snakelover33 (Oct 8, 2011)

But You Showed The Correct Paper Work & Everything I Dont See Why The Police Or The Wild Life Parks Cant Do Anything About It.. The Best Thing To Do Is Talk It Out With The Person Who Is Keeping Your Snakes.. I Wish You All The Best & Hopefully You Get Your Snake Back.


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 8, 2011)

Hey guys, just a quick update...

The owner of the reptiles, including ours that are being held looks like he/she is going to have their licence revoked as a number of breaches were found by NSW Parks after they finally visited the property yesterday, but only after they got a revving by Qld Police... amazing hey?

NSW Parks have now made an order for every animal (including ours) at the property to be ceased and handed over into our care by 5pm tomorrow. Although, there is a certain female that won't co-operate with the law, as she use to work in the legal system and knows how to play it. 

What astounds me the most while all of this is going on, is the fact that not only is this person and the apparent wildlife authorities that are suppose to have the animals best interest in mind, are both completly ignoring the fact that these animals have not had the basic care they need for over a month now???

We didn't expect for the lot to be placed into our care, but NSW Parks asked if we would take them and give them the care they require instead of them being ceased by Parks. We couldn't bare to think of what might happen to them if we didn't take on the responsibility of caring for them. But luckily we have a spare room and this is getting turned into a quarantine room well away from our other collection for the next 12 months or more.

So things are looking interesting till 5pm tomorrow. Will let you know how we go...

I'm still astonished as to how long and how much effort it has taken to get the authorities to act... unbelievable!


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 8, 2011)

Hopefully they are all ok when you get them tomorrow. Its a sad situation but hopefully it can have a somewhat happy ending. So sorry to hear that you guys have had to go through this.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 8, 2011)

Please promise me you will make sure you keep documenting all phonecalls and who you have spoken to....just in case it all goes wrong.

I am so glad you are getting your animals back.....and the ones that are going to you as a bonus are really very lucky snakes indeed !!

Take care and know we are all thinking of you.....not just because you lost your snakes but because of this argument involving family.

It is all just so unpleasant.


Fingers crossed and double crossed that the quarentine ebcomes just a precaution and all snakes are just a little worse for wear and none are really sick !!

Elizabeth


----------



## KaotikJezta (Oct 8, 2011)

Sorry I haven't wished you luck before, I have been having my own dilemmas with a pet, but I am really glad to hear it may all work out. I almost completely fell out with my oldest son a few years back so I really feel for you.


----------



## elogov (Oct 8, 2011)

Well I'm glad you will get what is rightfully your's back, It's a-bit scary as to how long it's taken & considering you're not completely out of the woods yet.


----------



## Colin (Oct 8, 2011)

hopw it all works out well mate.. its almost there and looks like it could be a good outcome. 

whats bothering me the most is the lack of concern for the animals wellfare by "this woman" and if it was me in your situation Id be concerned for her kids as well so would be putting in some complaints to DOCS child welfare to investigate their care and situation.. Its time to turn the heat up on this person and Im sure you could get some statements or at least use as a reference for her behaviour the QLD police officers involved in this drama..


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 8, 2011)

Colin that is an excellent idea
Even if DHS doesnt act this time they have a data base and all complaints get logged...so if something was to happen in the future...all this could come back to haunt her........


----------



## Colin (Oct 8, 2011)

thanks elizabeth.. the way I see it snakes can go without food for considerable time so feeding or not isnt that big an issue, however if shes turned the power to the cages off and they dont have heat it could be a problem and most of all lack of water could kill them or severely dehydrate them.. If shes not used to snakes a simple water squeeze bottle ( soft drink bottle) with a tube attached could be pushed through a small opening of the slidng doors or tub lids and fill some water bowls.. and she could easily do that without fear of getting bitten.. but it seems she just doesnt care..

so if she has such a disrespect for the lives of animals.. I wonder if her kids are being fed properly washed looked after etc etc.. breakups are very emotionally disturbing events and we've all experienced this.. but it seems shes focused on herself and her own feelings and needs without caring about the lives of the animals now under her temporary care.. so what about the kids? maybe there being looked after well but who knows? Its something that needs to be looked into in my opinion under these circumstances and her bitter attitudes towards others and animals etc.. 

you deal with peoples relationships etc in your work so whats your opinion of all this elizabeth?


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 9, 2011)

Well it is hard to know.

However the fact she would be so cruel and put the animals welfare second to her desire to be vindictive tells me she is not a very mature or pleasant person. It certainly isnt a very responsible thing to be doing and doesnt give a very good message to her children from a moral point of view.

It is realy hard to know. If there was deliberate cruelty like the thread not so long ago where there was questions over whether snakes had been deliberately harmed....then I would say...yes I would be very concerned for the welfare of the children as there are definite links between deliberate cruelty to animals (think throwing a snake in the fire...cigarette burn on the head...stomping on the animal)...and progression to the next stage which is cruelty/harming people. However neglect is different...if she is just not giving them water and heat...it is still cruelty but not quite the same. 

I guess if neglect is the case it is more the fact that she could consider doing this to poor captive animals and if she could consider that whether she is the sort of person who doesnt think about the needs of her children. Or has a 'different' level of standards regarding the care of anything dependant on her....compared to the standards the rest of us would have.

Sometimes when people are under stress they dont act as they normally would...and sometimes do things they are later ashamed or/regret due to anger. Lets hope this is the explanation and neglecting the snakes and not giving them back is about her anger...and not about a way of being in the world.

I just think the whole thing is very sad. Hearing that there are wild caught snakes there and they are all neglected is just awful quite apart from the refusal to give the snakes back. In addition to this the family feuding is so damaging to children. When children witness arguments is it very psychologicaly damaging and can cause children anxiety, depression and delay their development. In addition to this what sort of life template for problem solving and moral compass does this teach the children ?

I am sure if the Police attended and saw anything not right with the children that they would report it. I know in Vic Police come under mandatory reporting legislation and must report if the children are neglected. 

If I was the person who wrote this thread and I had any concerns about the children..and only the person who is there in the situation can make that decision...I would be making a phonecall to DHS and having a conversation with them. 

Elizabeth

PS Something I remember reading in the thread...correct me if I am wrong....but that the son is too scared to go back into the house to confront the woman......I do hope this isnt Family Violence...if it is and there are children involved this is definitely a matter for DHS. Children must not witness family violence and must not be put in danger by even being int he vicinity of family violence.


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 9, 2011)

Agree with the snake side of things Colin, but what worries me the most is the three Bearded Dragons, two spiny tailed geckos and two blue tongues, this spitefullness she is displaying could jeopardise the lives of these lizards, as they are no wear near as hardy as snakes and rely heavily on water at least. 

Not to mention the fact that she is playing games with the law, actually making a complete mockery of it! She could also quite easily release these animals into the wild and cry innocence, plea no knowledge of any such animals. There is also the possibility she could state that the animals died, which sadly could end up being the case through either release or neglect!


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 9, 2011)

she sounds like a piece of work !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jeannine (Oct 9, 2011)

*oh i would make it known to the cops she has said she will play the system and every other threat she has made

i do hope your having the cops or someone in authority meeting you there tomorrow to collect the snakes? dont be surprised if they are gone with claims of them having died or escaped or some other BS

as much as im not keen on snakes i do hope you get your babies back and get the others as well

good luck 
*


----------



## Allan (Oct 9, 2011)

wokka said:


> What makes you say that? Whilst i agree that exposure to wild snakes is not likely to cause health problems I am not aware of any evidence that captive snakes have worse health problems than wild snakes.



I was primarily thinking of the deadly pathogens (wrongly or rightly diagnosed as OPMV, who knows?) that have caused many deaths in collections over the last couple of years.


----------



## Colin (Oct 9, 2011)

thanks for your comments and insight elizabeth.. its always good to hear the opinions of a professional in these situations. I agree, sometimes stressful situations do make people act in a way they would not normally act and afterwards there a lot of regret. this woman however seems to have a definite vindictive streak and from her behaviour in this situation has a narcissistic personality as well.. the fact she wants to play and manipulate the system to cause more distress to everyone around her involved in this situation and put the animals welfare at risk in this vindictive revengeful manner rather than look to resolve a very sad situation as quickly and with the least stress on everyone around her says a lot about her in my opinion. 

people like this always seem to use children as a weapon against their former spouse and use them to create ongoing problems and distress to the people they want to hurt.. and the way she seems to be acting now points to this being the next step in her vindictive revengeful personality behaviour.. Im no professional but thats how I see it. and I'd be worried for the kids as well as the reptiles..


----------



## ausruss (Oct 9, 2011)

Your position really sucks. But what to do.

Without a document signed by both parties for the loan, the proof of ownership will have to be proven in a court of law. and yes your only alternative is to report the matter then take action. You also need all your communications to have clear written evidence of your report to police and the NSW Qld parks & wildlife also, as I assume you are in different states. Register letters to all three and keep copies. Get date awhen letters recieved and date and time of follow up calls with each persons name. You need to prove the facts OK

With this in hand go to community law office and get their help to fill in a civil action for the return of your annimals. If you win, you can get a repossesion order that is enforcable. Also I would approach parks and wildlife, if they fail to act in any way, fill in a complaint stating facts and ask for confernce for resolution with your minister. Go to the top and seek redress to stop this happening again to anyone else. Government depts are accountable and failing in their duty of care is also accountable..........Good Luck. Lastly go to the local papers and express your concerns, the more you can get media help the more it will help. name and shame them but only after you have been granted court order in your favour. Until then the theft is alledged.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 9, 2011)

*****



Jungleman said:


> Just a warning for aps members to be extremely careful when lending animals to friends/family for breeding projects or loans etc...
> 
> As I've just been caught out with lending 4 of my snakes as a breeding loan to someone I thought I could trust. But now it seems this
> person has decided my animals are too good to return and is keeping them.
> ...



If i still lived there i would brake the door down and take them back. that's not on who are they and where do they live...... stand up for your self don't let these people put it over you.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 9, 2011)

Hi jungleman

If parks and wildlife have viewed the animals and determined there are breaches to their care how can she just get rid of them and say she has no knowledge of them without consequence ? How could she say they all died without proof ? I cannot believe she could do this and nothing would be done!


----------



## Heelssss (Oct 9, 2011)

I'd be going in with a baseball bat, No Doubt!!


----------



## Squirtle (Oct 9, 2011)

Sorry to hear man, what a *beep * head! Its a shame what some people do these days! 

mmmm If you know where he lives just go kick the door in and get them back... worst that could happen is breaking entry as your not really stealing anything as they belong to you  but dont do it, I guess thats the only real thing you can do if the police/wildlife cant do anything.


----------



## Heelssss (Oct 9, 2011)

what about mini-microchipping??? Like we do for our fluffy pets?


----------



## Jackrabbit (Oct 9, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> They won't return the calls/msgs etc and have now threatened an avo if I keep contacting them.
> 
> Should not have to go through a court or that expense for something like this, it should be just cut and clean.



Mate I'd be letting them try the AVO thing. they would have to explain why they wanted one and I doubt they would get one since you are really stalking or threatening them. Plus I imagine it would cost them something to get it done.


I reckon I'd be asking a Stud fee of about $5k no matter what the snake. If they don't pay then they don't get the loan, if they don't return the snake they way over paid for snake unless it is a GTP.

If the snake mysteriously 'died' they get half back for pain and suffering.


----------



## aussiejosh (Oct 9, 2011)

thats soo wrong mate  hope you get them back theres gotta be some way


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 9, 2011)

This isn't normal grief. If she was acting out of pure spite and anger she wouldn't be thinking clearly enough to play the system as well as you say she is. 
The fact that your son is too scared to go back in, the way she's working it and the disregard for the animals lives tells me she is manipulative, cold, calculating and abusive. She appears to be the kind of person who likes to give back more than she was given in terms of hurt, whether or not she was really wronged, not to mention gets gratification out of 'one-upmanship'. 
Put it this way, I'm glad it's working out in your favour with regards to the animals, and I'd really be keeping an eye on the kids.


----------



## FAY (Oct 9, 2011)

PLEASE NOTE: we DO NOT encourage ANYONE to break the law or take the law into their own hands. Please note Rule No: 15

 PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN POSTING 

15. No member may make a post, thread or visitor message that encourages others to break any law, or promotes illegal activity (for example, keeping without a licence, illegally taking animals from the wild, smuggling, wiring your own cages, feeding live rodents or freezing live rodents)


----------



## Colin (Oct 9, 2011)

as far as the kicking down the door and taking them back suggestions go.. its something everyone would like to do but will leave wayne up for breaking and entering illegal entry, damages to property and whatever else.. that would see him end up on the wrong side of the law and I doubt would be taken lightly by the police. all that really can be done has been or is being done and its always best to do things legally and within the law.. 



Nighthawk said:


> This isn't normal grief. If she was acting out of pure spite and anger she wouldn't be thinking clearly enough to play the system as well as you say she is.
> The fact that your son is too scared to go back in, the way she's working it and the disregard for the animals lives tells me she is manipulative, cold, calculating and abusive. She appears to be the kind of person who likes to give back more than she was given in terms of hurt, whether or not she was really wronged, not to mention gets gratification out of 'one-upmanship'.
> Put it this way, I'm glad it's working out in your favour with regards to the animals, and I'd really be keeping an eye on the kids.



I agree with Nighthawks post above too..


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 9, 2011)

How did it go mate. Everything going to plan on the recovery


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 9, 2011)

yes we are thinking of you.....please let us know the outcome as soon as you can


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 9, 2011)

No luck guys... 5pm come and went with no call or msg today to come and collect them, so she still has them held up in the house (that is if they are still there?).

Contacted NSW Parks and could only leave messages as they are not open over the weekend (even though we were told there is someone always there over the weekends?).

So off to the qld police again tomorrow with the legal document that states they were to be handed over before 5pm today, lets hope they can get something done this time.


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 9, 2011)

Considering that DECCW (or what ever it's called now) is meant to care about wildlife, they definitely don't seem to care about the animals welfare. This is what is so annoying is we jump through all the hoops to keep them happy but when push comes to shove. They don't give a **** about our animals. 

Hopefully the cops can get it sorted.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 9, 2011)

Jungleman I am so sorry

I guess you do have to wait for her to initiate handover...you couldnt have just turned up at her place at 5pm to collect them ? Was that made clear that she had to contact you......

My hope is if you go to the Police tomorrow they wil organise to accompany you to the house to sease the animals.

This is just so unpleasant....at least Parks went and viewed them all so she cant say they were never there.

You know I really hope she can be fined or charged with something....this is all so wrong !!


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 9, 2011)

It continues to amaze me that dodgy people can flout the law as much as they like and get away with it, but honest people may forget to pay a fine or put half a toenail out of line once and get completely snotted by the full extent.


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 9, 2011)

We also found out yesterday that she even has the audacity to apply for a reptile licence so she can keep all the animals (this includes ours)... we are just dumb founded, surely she must know it will be rejected!


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 9, 2011)

Sociopathic tendancies much? Man she's got some cohones...


----------



## Red-Ink (Oct 9, 2011)

jungleman... good luck, hope you get them back soon.


----------



## euphorion (Oct 10, 2011)

sorry to hear it hasn't gone so smoothly...good luck, still hoping for good news.


----------



## Em1986 (Oct 10, 2011)

Any new news today? I am hoping no news is good news?


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 10, 2011)

Went into the cop station this morning and the officer there that has been helping us, gave parks another call again to another senior person, after he spoke to me, he said they are looking into it and will get back to me in regards to what happens next and when we can pick them up. They apparently now have to organise their own law enforcement to go around, enter the premises and cease all animals.

Just a waiting game now before we here back from them so we can go down and collect all 22 animals. A quarter of these are not even recorded on books and are not licenced to keep.

You think you trust and no somebody... and WHAM!


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 10, 2011)

geez, i cant believe they havent handed them over yet!!

if im finding it frustrating, i can only imagine how u guys feel,.....

(and here i am waiting to cop a fine for handing my book in late,....seems id have more rights without one!!!)


----------



## euphorion (Oct 10, 2011)

Goodness me, i can't imagine how stressful this much be for you both


----------



## chris1984 (Oct 10, 2011)

the legal system 90% of the time is only there to raise money, if you want what is yours walk in and take it


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 10, 2011)

chris1 said:


> geez, i cant believe they havent handed them over yet!!
> 
> If im finding it frustrating, i can only imagine how u guys feel,.....
> 
> (and here i am waiting to cop a fine for handing my book in late,....seems id have more rights without one!!!)



lol


----------



## Khagan (Oct 10, 2011)

Can't believe this has been drawn out so long for you guys.. Don't see why they didn't just act on it straight away and take them, if the person was inclined to do so all these animals could be long gone moved elsewhere before they even get off their butt to do their job.. It's pathetic to think that scenario could be played out anytime anything is reported.

Hope you do get them in time to save them so they can be in the proper care they deserve, poor things :C.


----------



## Dark_Psyde (Oct 11, 2011)

So sorry to hear about your misfortune i hope you get your reps back however you choose to do it. My girlfriend doesn't have an account on here (not as into the herps as me) but definitely doesn't mind making one just to get suspended for "naming and shaming" send me a pm if you would like. Would really like to see this scumbag shunned from the community. Sad how people can treat eachother, especially family for that matter. Good luck anyway all of our thoughts are with you and I'm sure you have made alot of us think twice before lending out our beloved pets, Nick.


----------



## Colin (Oct 11, 2011)

Dark_Psyde said:


> So sorry to hear about your misfortune i hope you get your reps back however you choose to do it. My girlfriend doesn't have an account on here (not as into the herps as me) but definitely doesn't mind making one just to get suspended for "naming and shaming" send me a pm if you would like. Would really like to see this scumbag shunned from the community. Sad how people can treat eachother, especially family for that matter. Good luck anyway all of our thoughts are with you and I'm sure you have made alot of us think twice before lending out our beloved pets, Nick.



Its against the rules to name and shame on here.. if you got your girlfriend to do that not only would she be infracted or banned so would you for conspiring with her to do it.. If you want to know who it is private message Jungleman.. but dont post the name thanks.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi Jungleman

How are things today. I know it isnt quite 24 hours since you last posted but we are thinking of you and hoping things are moving along.
Can you please do something for me. Will you please phone the department that issues wildlife licences and make sure they know what is going on...you know how bad govt departments can be at letting each other know what they are doing !! I just have this vision of her waving ehr licence under you nose because they department stuffed up and gave her one !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 11, 2011)

Fantazmic said:


> Hi Jungleman
> 
> How are things today. I know it isnt quite 24 hours since you last posted but we are thinking of you and hoping things are moving along.
> Can you please do something for me. Will you please phone the department that issues wildlife licences and make sure they know what is going on...you know how bad govt departments can be at letting each other know what they are doing !! I just have this vision of her waving ehr licence under you nose because they department stuffed up and gave her one !!!!!!!!!!!



Hi Fantazmic

Have already done that to insure she does not get issued with a licence.

Well it's another day and as per usual, no contact from nsw parks. I'm amazed how we have this legal document sitting here that says the animals must be handed over by 5pm Sunday 9th Oct, but here it is now Tuesday the 11th after 5pm and nothing???

Looks like a call to the local mayor of Alstonville and perhaps the paper tomorrow morning, maybe that will get some attention!

I'd really love to know were the laws and values of our parks and wildlife lay when it comes to our beloved animals? Especially when we go to every length to make sure we are abiding by all the laws and rules to keep these animals... but when the ball bounces in their court, where are they???


----------



## euphorion (Oct 11, 2011)

We're rooting for you Wayne!


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Oct 11, 2011)

I lent a beautiful 10 foot female Olive python once to the owner of the reptile complex at Aussie world. The hairy axe wound ( John Robinson ) sold the place with my snake. The new owner bought everything in good faith as Johns property and refused to hand it over, such is life.


----------



## Dark_Psyde (Oct 11, 2011)

Good luck mate, whatever happens, karma will eventually give this bloke a good kick in the teeth, as I was saying to Colin before I've known a guy who did very similar things to people who were trying to help him and now he's currently living in a tent with all his possessions "missing" and wouldn't dare show his face in Melbourne again. Hope it goes well mate, good things happen to good people just dont give up! Nick.


----------



## coldblood (Oct 11, 2011)

Grab him by the throat and slowly constrict him......works a treat1


----------



## Colin (Oct 11, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> Hi Fantazmic
> 
> Have already done that to insure she does not get issued with a licence.
> 
> ...



give ron a call or email him wayne.. I've always found him to be a good bloke and helpful.

if you can get the newspspaper to come to her house for a pic > picket her house with thief signs and tell the story so the whole town knows about it and who she is.. and call child welfare to come and check on those kids too..


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Oct 11, 2011)

Thinking about it very quickly, I have ( been ripped off ) the following in breeding loans, 3 jungles, 1 eastern brown, 1 inland taipan, 3 death adders, 2 Colletts, 1 lace monotor, 2 scrub pythons. Not a great thing to get into with just anyone.

I have just read above that it is apparently against the rules here to name and shame so feel free to delete the name in my above post as the editing bit doesn't seem to work mods.


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 11, 2011)

Im shocked that anyone could be so shameful, I borrowed and broke a neighbors very old hose fitting the other dy, she was amazed I felt the need to replace it I can't imagine walking off with someones beloved and valuable animal and just thinking that it was ok


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 11, 2011)

Colin said:


> give ron a call or email him wayne.. I've always found him to be a good bloke and helpful.
> 
> if you can get the newspspaper to come to her house for a pic > picket her house with thief signs and tell the story so the whole town knows about it and who she is.. and call child welfare to come and check on those kids too..




Tried calling him Colin and he never seems to answer his phone, even left messages to call back and no response?


[Quote by PilbaraPythons]Thinking about it very quickly, I have ( been ripped off ) the following in breeding loans, 3 jungles, 1 eastern brown, 1 inland taipan, 3 death adders, 2 Colletts, 1 lace monotor, 2 scrub pythons. Not a great thing to get into with just anyone.[End Quote]

Seems to be quite a few of us out there Dave, even the bigger owners/breeders such as yourself that have been caught out like this.

Find it nothing short of disgusting this is even aloud to happen.


----------



## Colin (Oct 12, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> Tried calling him Colin and he never seems to answer his phone, even left messages to call back and no response?



I just contacted Ron and he said they are aware of the problem and the DECC Area people are actively attempting to resolve this issue. so fingers crossed some action may be forthcoming today Wayne. best of luck mate


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 12, 2011)

Good work Colin for trying to help Wayne out. Hope it gets sorted soon.


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 12, 2011)

If things keep going so slow we could always organise an impromptu, peaceful, herp meeting on the footpath outside her house, a la non-aggressive protest. I'm sure a whole bunch of APS members turning up virtually on her front door may just give her a little boost in the right direction 
At the very least she may get into the spirit of the thing, get some education, bring them out for show and tell and we'll all just grab one each and run giggling madly down the street 

In all seriousness though, it's good to know DECC are moving on this.


----------



## Colin (Oct 12, 2011)

I dont know if it will help or not Daniel, but it doesnt hurt to ask I guess..
I think it's been handed over from Sydney Head office to the Local Area guy's up the coast so let's hope they can get the ball rolling today and get some action happening..


----------



## jewelz (Oct 12, 2011)

Thanks Colin for all of your help  but just to let everyone know we are getting no response and little assistance from DECC, they are just giving her the to get her license and then for the him to sign over all the animals (ours included) and where does that lead us???????? totally @#%[email protected]$ up is my first guess.... I am fast loosing all faith in doing things the correct way and I am now even questioning why we even have wildlife protection people at all........
All we want is what is legally ours to be returned and the the 2 people that have done this can rot in hell for all I care.......


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 12, 2011)

what!!?

would it help if we ALL started making fone calls?
...and let them know how many people are aware this situation and how badly theyre handling it? 

OMG, i cant believe this is getting worse instead of better,....!!


----------



## euphorion (Oct 12, 2011)

If that's how close things have come to going completely the wrong way i would be trying to get the local news involved. There is not way DECC would stand to let everyone know what failures they are like that.

Good luck, still hopeing for the best and thinking of you and your animals.


----------



## jewelz (Oct 12, 2011)

We have just contacted the papers who are VERY interested and the Editor will be calling us back today, we are also contacting our local member as we speak, this has gone on long enough........


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 12, 2011)

Having legal, signed documentation stating definitively that the animals were to be handed over by 5pm the other day should help. Good lord this is a bit of a circus! I'd be keen to call and give them grief as well, this is just ridiculous!


----------



## waruikazi (Oct 12, 2011)

One word on how to deal with government departments who aren't doing their jobs properly...

OMBUDSMAN!

Queensland Ombudsman


----------



## euphorion (Oct 12, 2011)

WEE! GO GUYS!

Can i come and hold a picket for you!? heheehe.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 12, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> One word on how to deal with government departments who aren't doing their jobs properly...
> 
> OMBUDSMAN!
> 
> Queensland Ombudsman



why didnt I think to tell you to do that !!!!!!!!!!!

They do take time to investigate but at least they wil investigate and all concerned will be called to account

I just cannot believe how badly this is being handled....if she is given a licence it makes a mockery of all of us who are doing the right thing......in fact it is appauling

Is there anywhere we can all email...there have been other cases on the forum where pressure has been applied by forum members and the govt departments have acted............


----------



## nakerz_the_herp (Oct 12, 2011)

There really are some useless pieces of work out in this world. It makes me sick to be honest. To the OP, I have pm'd you regarding helping in any way possible.


----------



## jewelz (Oct 12, 2011)

Not one returned call or email from DECC today......but we did get a call back from the editor of a newspaper who wanted to come and see us today, but due to our busy work schedules, he has asked to speak with us on friday..... The ombudsman is also being contacted as has our local member of parliament, also our local police are disgusted in the way this has been handled...:x

Lets hope tomorrow brings us better news.

Thanks again for all of your support, it means a lot..


----------



## Jeannine (Oct 12, 2011)

*oh i would ring the DECC and let it slip the paper are coming out to do an interview and would they prefer the editor ring, email or come to their office to ask them some questions and who should he ask for? *:lol:


----------



## smeejason (Oct 12, 2011)

good luck guys hopefully the pressure at the top will start to buckle the people down the food chain in some of these gov departments..


----------



## mungus (Oct 12, 2011)

I've just read the WHOLE thread.
Bloody DECC !!!!
What good are they ?
wouldnt give them a smell of my best fart...........
Hang in there guys, a bit of luck is surely coming your way.
I personally would of had my snakes back the next day..........where all different, which is a good thing


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 12, 2011)

Update:

I wrote an email to three separate managers of NSW Parks this morning. I even sent read receipts with all three emails and all three were read, but not one reply?

I basically told them how disgusted I am in what has happened and how they are just delaying the process even further and perhaps even putting animals lives at risk. I also said at the end of the email that they have left us no choice now but to contact the papers and our local mayor...

We heard back from the paper today and they will be interviewing me this Friday. Still waiting on a reply from an email I sent to our local mayor of Qld this morning, but I will be calling the ombudsman for nsw tomorrow morning to make an official complaint against nsw parks and the nsw ballina police station on the their incompetence and lack of care towards not only these reptiles, but also the disrespect they have shown us and every other person that has a reptile licence in NSW and the trust they have now lost in anybody that reads this entire thread.

Leanne and I are just lost for words and are slowly running out of options short of spending big money on legal representation.

Thanks again to everyone on APS and for all your help and support (especially Colin)...


----------



## Jeannine (Oct 13, 2011)

*im not sure of the costs associated with civil court, might be an idea to look into it or at least go and have a chat with your local court house to see if they have any other suggestions?*


----------



## Colin (Oct 13, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> Update:
> 
> I wrote an email to three separate managers of NSW Parks this morning. I even sent read receipts with all three emails and all three were read, but not one reply?
> 
> ...



Im just sorry that my input with DECC has had no effect mate.. very disappointed that they didnt even contact you back.. you saw my email and it had your mobile phone number and this thread link included. I did get a short reply but had hoped the DECC would help resolve this situation quickly. theres a few DECC that have member accounts on here too - it would be appreciated if they could log on and give us an opinion on this situation, some advice and an update.

I'd try to get onto your local member of parliment too.. there supposed to represent us and your a taxpayer.. get onto the local paper and out this woman to her local community as a selfish thief whose petty vindictiveness could be causing the death of many reptiles. Is'nt killing protected wildlife (whether directly or through neglect) an offence? I'd be exploring the dept of child welfare option too.. make her life a misery.


----------



## Enlil (Oct 13, 2011)

Aslo you need to let as many people know in the area if they deal with him, as you have proof he can not get you for defamation.


----------



## Colin (Oct 13, 2011)

Enlil said:


> Aslo you need to let as many people know in the area if they deal with him, as you have proof he can not get you for defamation.



Its a "her" the him and her had a breakup and the "him" ran off scared of his missus (see post 67) 
the "him" just sends rude and insulting sms messages to his mother (see post 66) 

I'd like to know why "he" doesnt stand up and do the right and try to help wayne and leanne & the reptiles he's supposed to love so much?


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 13, 2011)

Is there an email address we can flood for you to express disgust at how this situation's been handled? Ombudsman, MP, DECC, police, anything? Post a link, you should have a few people speak up for you.


----------



## skatterd (Oct 13, 2011)

They have to leave home at some point during the day, but personally, if this happened to me.. i'd prefer them to be home... hope it works out for ya man.


----------



## tazzy (Oct 13, 2011)

2 words....lock and load


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks for the PM Jungleman, done. It may not do much, but it's something I suppose. At the very least they know that their actions, or inactions as the case may be, are known.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 13, 2011)

Hi everyone

Any more news ? I have been logging in every day checking the thread.

You are really to be commended on how hard you have tried to get some support.

I don understand why it has suddenly gone cold after having the order for the animals to be handed over....it just doesnt add up.

Is there anywhere we can email to demand answers....anything at all we can do to give you some support.

Elizabeth


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 13, 2011)

Is the news getting any better mate. It's just appalling that the decc are doing very little if anything to resolve the issue. All whilst they are still being mistreated. Definitely makes you question the whole licensing system. I just can't believe that they don't care about wildlife, which is meant to be their job.


----------



## PythonLegs (Oct 13, 2011)

Really? Still nothing? I'm sure if the address where these reptiles were being held somehow got pm'd to certain members, you'd have your reptiles back quickly. Just sayin'.


----------



## jewelz (Oct 13, 2011)

Hi All,

Tomorrow we have an interview with the editor of a newspaper, our local member and contact with the ombudsman plus a catch up with our local police who have tried everything they can to help..... Lets hope we have some progress tomorrow!


----------



## Mayo (Oct 14, 2011)

Give them hell through the interview, but be clear and concise. If you can try to use the full names of those that have chosen to do nothing, when it is there job to help. Also emphasis the cruelty that these animals have suffered in her care and that even with this knowledge they are considering giving her a license. It will make them think long and hard before giving her a license after that.


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 14, 2011)

Mayo said:


> Give them hell through the interview, but be clear and concise. If you can try to use the full names of those that have chosen to do nothing, when it is there job to help. Also emphasis the cruelty that these animals have suffered in her care and that even with this knowledge they are considering giving her a license. It will make them think long and hard before giving her a license after that.



Don't forget to take along any paperwork as well; if you have time get some signed letters from people who have witnessed her mistreatment/neglect of the animals and her unreasonable behaviour.


----------



## smeejason (Oct 14, 2011)

This is the second time this year where the government department that is suppose to look after the well being of the native animals in our care has done nothing of the sort.
Maybe show the paper this thread as well to show the complete uselessness of DERM.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/updated-disgusting-case-neglect-pic-167148/

Seems they only want to do the least amount to show they are taking our money for a reason and is easy to go look at a big collection well looked after than to deal with someone mistreating animals or not meeting there requirements of having a license.


----------



## PythonLegs (Oct 14, 2011)

Mention buying exotics or buying off licence and the Heroic Animal Advocates from DERM or the RSPCA will message you in a second. 15 pages of this kind of thing and suddenly they're all nowhere to be found. Must all be busy organising a new ad campaign or hassling 14 year olds...and they wonder why they've lost so much communtiy support. No doubt one of the gutless cowards has read this thread already with no response.


----------



## Psilo (Oct 14, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> Really? Still nothing? I'm sure if the address where these reptiles were being held somehow got pm'd to certain members, you'd have your reptiles back
> quickly. Just sayin'.



+2

Just sayin.


----------



## Colin (Oct 14, 2011)

I was just thinking about government departments in general and wondering whats the latest on this debacle? I havent heard any more on this disgraceful WASTE of taxpayers money since this article last year.. 

Department of Hot Air costing $90 million | thetelegraph.com.au

*Department of Hot Air costing $90 million 
*_By Simon Benson _*From: The Daily Telegraph *
*April 29, 2010 12:00AM *


*TAXPAYERS will fork out $90 million a year to keep more than 400 public servants employed within the federal Climate Change Department - despite most now having nothing to do until 2013. 
*More than 60 of them are classified as senior executive staff on salaries between $168,000 and $298,000 a year. Their salary bill alone will cost an estimated $12 million every year.
A further $8 million will also be paid in rent for plush offices at Canberra's Constitution Place until 2012, where it is believed 500 new computers will be delivered this week.
It can be revealed that despite Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's decision on Tuesday to suspend the failed Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme until at least 2013, the department has ruled out plans to cut back staff.
A formal response by department secretary Martin Parkinson to a Senate estimates hearing on Tuesday - the same day as the scheme's suspension - claimed the department would not offer redundancies.

The formal response, obtained by _The Daily Telegraph_, said there were no plans for "the immediate future" of any scaling back of staff, despite the agency losing its core function.
According to official figures, the number of top-paid bureaucrats being paid up to $298,000 a year has almost doubled since January this year from 39 to 61. That was to gear up for establishment of the Australian Climate Change Regulatory Authority, which will also now have no function.
The number of overall agency staff was also ramped up since last year with total climate change employees rising from an initial 246 to 408.
Of the 61 senior agency officials, only nine were inherited from the scrapped home insulation scheme.
The majority, 38, were employed on the CPRS and a further 19 were employed on the renewable energy scheme which has also been axed.
But none of the 408 staff within the department will be shed even though the department's key function, the CPRS, has been axed.
Its own tender documents revealed a lease contract of $16 million for its offices which expires in 2012.
"The hundreds of public servants who have been beavering away on this policy, the 114 public servants who they took to Copenhagen for that matter in support of this policy ... none of that's changed," Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said yesterday.
"Which is why I think that Mr Rudd for political reasons doesn't want to talk about his great big new tax on everything but as sure as night follows day, if he gets re-elected, we'll be stuck with it."








our tax dollars "at work"


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 14, 2011)

Lots of promises...and what have we currently got....lots of disappointment....thats all I'm going to say..........

I wonder what has happened today...such good news with another layer of support from local govt and media...I wonder if anything has shifted as a result


----------



## starr9 (Oct 15, 2011)

Hope today is a much better day than the last! Fingers x-d that you get them back today and all the departments and ppl who should of helped you in the 1st place do today!!! Thats my wish 4 you both!!!!!


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 15, 2011)

Any news guys?


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 15, 2011)

So many true comments on here, but too many to actually reply too. I am however leaving a 'Like' on each one that I agree with and has given both Leanne and I a good ol chuckle over 

But this latest bit of news should make the bad taste you have in your mouth towards the govenment just a little more tasty...

Yesterday I called the government starting right at the top in our own department of Qld politics and slowly I was weaned down to the bottom were I was finally told I need to speak to the highest point of contact within the NSW Federal Member in regards to the issue we have had now for over 6 weeks. So I started all over again by calling the number I was given for the Federal Member, but again... I was sent on an out-of-control spiraling mad house were I was once again transferred from the so called higher-achy of animal welfare and complaints down to the Minister of Environment were I started my story all over again  But wait, there's more... they said they couldn't help me and transferred me to the Environment of Heritage...lol. The lady I spoke to from the Environment of Heritage was helpful by calling Ron Haering himself (The manager for NSW Parks & Wildlife) on my behalf. When the lady returned she said that Ron is aware of the situation, but it is now out of his hands and another department is now handling the situation and basically he won't speak to me...lol. So the kind lady put me through to this department, and guess who answered???... The Northern Rivers Ranger, who we originally made the complaint too some 2 to 3 weeks ago...lmao. 

After the Ranger got a mouthful of my dissatisfaction, she went on to say that the two parties involved that have our animals and the other 17 animals that were meant to be seized and released to us last Sunday 9th Oct have been issued with another warrant to say that they now have till 5pm next Wednesday 19th Oct and this time if they are not released to us, the law enforcement + NSW Parks (*will definitely - *and this is from the Rangers own mouth) be entering the premises on the Thursday morning (20th Oct) to seize all animals and have them handed over to us on the Friday.

So now it's another waiting game till Wednesday, I wonder how long they will give them again after Wednesday?...lol.

I've had some pitiful service in the past, but this one takes the cake!

I also asked the Ranger if they are gettng let off so it allows the female living at the house to apply for another Licence in her name so she can claim the whole lot? The Ranger assured me that even if she did, it would not pass through the licencing department till this whole dibacle has been all cleared up, the Ranger also said she highly doubts that she would even be aloud to get a licence after this?... lol sorry, but I've lost all confidence in any govenment department, including any law enforcement that say they are here to protect, abide by the law and serve justice when justice is deserved (in this case, it's staring at them right in the face).


----------



## Specks (Oct 15, 2011)

good to hear this and hopefully justice is served and when the time comes they either give you the animals or they are taken off them
i congratulate on your efforts


----------



## Illusive_Jag (Oct 15, 2011)

Lets hope your law abiding selves pay off in the end.. Im not sure No i know i would not have the same patience as yourself. I once flew to sydney to visit a loser who ripped me off on a snake sale. Short version: Did the sale, got the permits, deposited the funds. Then no more contact and of course no animals. An old address for a start, telstra helped me out in the end after a few goes and i got his new address. I enjoyed meeting him.. He was rather unaccomodating when he knew who i was, but problem sorted.

I know what you mean its a long winded excercise trying to get something done. All fauna permit units regulate whats legal and whats not, plus if you miss one entry in your book of any sort you risk the $200 fine for each wrong entry or something similar and they thret to take your snakes. But if someone sells you a sick animal or does not freight it after you have paid. Nope ring someone else or nothing we can do.
So im surprised the Ranger is even taking it on, but as you said if they have the police as back up, I think from memory they have the right to do whatever they please. Good to hear and I hope it works out for you and the animals.


----------



## Mayo (Oct 15, 2011)

My question is how did the interview go, What do I have to buy, read or watch to see it? I wouldn't leave them with it until Wednesday though I would still be keeping the pressure on them so they no that it isn't going to go away.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 15, 2011)

Well I don't have to tell you how frustrating this is....however....at least SOMETHING has happened. I just hope that once we get to Wednesday there are still some animals to collect.

Something that might be worthwhile...have you tried the opposition...is there anyone from the opposition political parties you can contact by letter with the details of this debarcle. Oposition ministers do like to have any ammo against the government......

Just a thought.

My thoughts are with you......

It really feels like the legislation around what happens when the law around animal cruelty with australian protected animals is breeched is unclear (as opposed to the lawsaround domestic animal cruelty which seem to be very clear)...it is almost like nobody knows whose responsibility it is and this makes them too frightened to act....so that pass the buck....which is exactly what you have experienced. When really.........all animals kept in a domestic situation should be under the same umbrella..when you think about it....


----------



## Mayo (Oct 15, 2011)

Fantazmic said:


> Something that might be worthwhile...have you tried the opposition...is there anyone from the opposition political parties you can contact by letter with the details of this debarcle. Oposition ministers do like to have any ammo against the government......
> 
> Just a thought.



I so Second that idea


----------



## Darlyn (Oct 15, 2011)

Just read this entire thread.
Unbelievable!
Public servants with no accountablity for their inaction.
What a sad state of affairs, it's times like these when you need to keep
a list of all the names of people who have fobbed you off, put together
a document to forward to the ombudsman. May not help your present situation
but could very well help people in the future.


Lack of action in this case is heartbreaking.
Good luck!


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 15, 2011)

Been following this thread Wayne and Leanne, geez, sorry this crap is so hard for you guys. Perhaps if you told them she kicked a bunny you'd get a more timely reponse. Thanks for keeping us all posted mate, you know we are all behind you 100%.


----------



## Colin (Oct 16, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> So many true comments on here, but too many to actually reply too. I am however leaving a 'Like' on each one that I agree with and has given both Leanne and I a good ol chuckle over
> 
> But this latest bit of news should make the bad taste you have in your mouth towards the govenment just a little more tasty...
> 
> ...



you guys must be so tired disillusioned and frustrated.. hang on till this situation resolves mate.. yeah Ron is the bloke I originally put you on to and thats what he told me last week, that its now in the hands of the northern area people. Ron has always been very helpful to me and one of the good guys (imo) in the dept. same goes for Alan McLean. I know the DECC have had a bit of negative feedback on here but in my opinion these two guys are pretty good. It seems the northern rivers people are the ones with the ball now and have been for some time.

If you need to contact government ministers I know just the bloke who can probably help with this and will message you who to approach for help. Best of luck wayne and leanne, we're all behind you.


----------



## Smithers (Oct 16, 2011)

The time this has taken the authorities to clear up is really sick, wish you both some good fortune this week


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 16, 2011)

while it once again sounds promising, i wont be happy till theyre safely back with you,....


i also hope if any of the animals have died in that period, or come back in a terrible condition, that you pursue animal cruelity charges against that woman even once theyre back home, drag it out and make her life as miserable as possible for as long as possible,...

so sorry to hear this is still not resolved, best of luck on the 19th!!


----------



## angelrose (Oct 16, 2011)

i'd be down the local rugby club recruiting the team for a stand over to get your animals back...... good luck


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 18, 2011)

1 day to go!!!!!


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 18, 2011)

Chris1 said:


> 1 day to go!!!!!


Hopefully only 1 day. I just hope all the reps are ok. Best of luck.


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 18, 2011)

I think you'll find pretty much most of everyone on here are on standby to either cheer or waiting for the word... be thinking of you guys tomorrow!


----------



## crosswire (Oct 18, 2011)

WIshing you all the best for tomorrow!


----------



## Colin (Oct 18, 2011)

give those northern rivers rangers a gee up today I reckon so they are ready with no excuses for tomorrow.. 
make sure there aware of the situation & ready so theres no last minute stuff ups.. I would havbe the police there too and the newspaper 
best of luck guys


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes I agree
Touch base today to make sure that you are all organised for tomorrow

We are all thinking of you !!


----------



## starr9 (Oct 18, 2011)

Good luck 2morrow!! Got all my fingers and toes x-d 4 u it will all fall in to place and go very smoothly!!!


----------



## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

D-Day.. best of luck guys.. Im sure everyone is thinking of you both and hopes this situation will finally be resolved with a positive outcome for you and your animals.


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 19, 2011)

What a Nightmare!!,. I cant believe this is still dragging on!
Lets hope it comes to an end today & lets hope all the Reptiles are ok.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 19, 2011)

hope youve got all those cages warming up!!

fingers and toes crossed everything works out today!!


----------



## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

> they have been issued with another warrant to say that they now have till 5pm next Wednesday 19th Oct and this time if they are not released to us, the law enforcement + NSW Parks (*will definitely - *and this is from the Rangers own mouth) be entering the premises on the Thursday morning (20th Oct) to seize all animals and have them handed over to us on the Friday.



almost 5pm and I hope you have them mate.


----------



## Bel03 (Oct 19, 2011)

Jen said:


> Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell.



Even black sheep? 

Ive been watching this thread......& it is very sad. I havent commented as i have issues with my own family, & probaly wouldnt have said anything very helpful! I hope all works out for you guys from here! Not only do i hope you get your snakes back, but i hope they are not in too bad a condition. All the best!


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 19, 2011)

i imagine theres a whole lot of feeding and watering going on by now,.....(well, hoping anyway)


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 19, 2011)

Any news ?

Ive just got home from work and I had hoped that there might have been an update.......


----------



## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

none I've heard yet elizabeth..


----------



## GeckoRider (Oct 19, 2011)

Hopefully there's been no reply because they got there snakes back and are having a party


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 19, 2011)

I do hope thats the outcome


----------



## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

If theres been good news I'd say wayne will have his hands full for a while feeding, watering & housing the reptiles mate.. 
wayne and leanne must also be very physically tired & mentally drained as well.. any celebrating would be in the next day or two. lets just hope its a good result and no more snags have eventuated..


----------



## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

Colin said:


> lets just hope its a good result and no more snags have eventuated..



....Or lots of snags in the celebratory barbeque 



I've also been watching this thread since it started, and I'd just like to express the same disgust that everyone has for the government departments, and the woman and relative involved, and hope that all has gone smoothly today without any problems.

can't wait to hear the latest and hopefully relieving news


----------



## Colin (Oct 19, 2011)

just got an sms from wayne... they wont know till tomorrow  
Im really not sure exactly whats happened and thats all I know.


----------



## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

bugger, that's not the result we were hoping for, unfortunately after reading the whole saga I can't say it wasn't slightly unexpected


----------



## SteveNT (Oct 19, 2011)

+1


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 19, 2011)

I guess they have given them till 5pm today...to return the animals... and when the animals arent returned .....then they will act.....we hope.....with the ultimatum they have promised.....

gosh this is slow and drawn out


----------



## Rhomany (Oct 19, 2011)

I wish you guys the best of luck!


----------



## jewelz (Oct 19, 2011)

Hi All,
We will be contacting the decc tomorrow and hopefully all of the animals will be seized in the morning, but as this has gone on for so many weeks and so many failed promises, I am not holding my breath... 
You will all be the first to know when we call in the morning though.
Once again thank you all so very much (especially Colin) for all your support throughout this horrible experience...


----------



## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

It's been a truly disgraceful saga from my end of the computer, let alone yours, I wish you guys the best of luck tomorrow.

Are they going to take any action against this woman for not turning them over to you on time i.e. fines etc? or is the deadline seemingly just a guide as opposed to a legal obligation?

DECC *should've* been waiting round the corner for 5:01pm to seize them, unfortunatly not the case.

Good luck for tomorrow,
hope it goes better


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks for all the well wishes guys...

Yeah because DECC gave them till 5pm today, DECC closes at 5pm, so know one is in the office after 5pm. But as I was told last week, if we did not hear from both parties that have caused this whole saga by 5pm today (which we haven't), then DECC + law enforcements will be going in first thing in the morning to seize all the animals (that is if they are even still there). So will be calling them in the morning to make sure they are moving on this immediately, as I've just about had a gut-full.


----------



## Jeannine (Oct 20, 2011)

i would make sure your local papers editor was given a phone call as well and be nice if he was there as well 

if nothing happens tomorrow then start yelling loudly in the direction of the media

oh isnt John Laws back on air? im sure he is working for his old radio station as retirement didnt suit him, maybe even a phone call to him about whats been going on, never know cause he use to yell really loudly and got things done and he usually goes straight to the top bypassing totally the middle man/men

9am to 12pm

2SM 

Openline:
1300 JOHN LAWS (1300 564 652)

Email:
[email protected]


----------



## slim6y (Oct 20, 2011)

Certainly not a covert operation with this forum being so open to the public. 

Good luck to you both - hope that it all works out!


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 20, 2011)

Well it's first thing in the morning; hopefully they're loading up and moving over to you guys. This woman needs a big old fine slapping now, charges and all as far as I'm concerned. 
Good luck, fingers crossed there's some movement. I'll be keeping an eye out for some good news.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 20, 2011)

sigh, wish i could say im surprised,...


----------



## jewelz (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi,
Well we have not heard one word and surprise surprise DECC's phone goes to message bank......


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 20, 2011)

They are ****ing useless. I can't believe that we are actually paying for our licences as they don't seem to care about people stealing reptiles or keeping them off licence. This whole situation is a crook of ****.


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 20, 2011)

(unintelligable cursing)


----------



## Bec (Oct 20, 2011)

wishing you's the best of luck for today. Hopefully this is the last day of your animals being in someone elses hands.


----------



## euphorion (Oct 20, 2011)

OMG. 

thinking of you guys.


----------



## starr9 (Oct 20, 2011)

*sigh* Im sorry to here this. This should of been fixed. My heart go's out 2 u and ur pets and I hope after Iv typed this I see a comment that u have ur pets back safe and sound.


----------



## PythonLegs (Oct 20, 2011)

So. NOW can we form up and go and take them?


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 20, 2011)

Actually I think a quite protest rally outside the DECC offices with the media in attendance would go down real well!


----------



## ryanm (Oct 20, 2011)

snakeynewbie said:


> Actually I think a quite protest rally outside the DECC offices with the media in attendance would go down real well!



"Occupy DECC"


----------



## jewelz (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi All, 
I cannot put into words what has happened today, devastated does not even begin to explain how I feel now..........
Wayne is writing as we speak, but the long and short of it is.....we will not be getting anything back, thanks to a major #%@$ up by DECC and what makes it worse is that they don't care.........


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 20, 2011)

Hey guys...

We finally got onto the Ranger who has previously been mentioned, she has just informed us that all 22 animals (including ours) was seized last night and all were taken into some care takers home...***??? We specifically said to contact us as soon as you have them and we will come down and collect them, instead they hand them over to god knows who, who has god knows what in their collection and what they have had their previously. We are yet again just dumb founded as to what planet this so called care of wildlife government is living on?

This ultimately means we have lost everything, only because of the fact that we will not risk bringing them back into our collection as god only knows what they have picked up on the way.

Not only did we go off our brain at the park ranger that is suppose to be the ducks nuts in caring for wildlife, but Leanne asked her if she even knew what OPMV was, the ranger replied 'No'?... You have got to be kidding us, do you even know anything about taking care of reptiles, what their needs are and the risks involved in transporting diseases etc, she replied again... 'No'? What are they doing in that role, what studies have they done regarding reptiles? They must just sit there all day long and push a pen around and let all their calls go through to message bank....

Sorry guys, I'm just so and beyond peeved off, I'm just lost for words as to how this has panned out.

I contacted the NSW Ombudsman again this morning, they informed me that it can take up to two weeks to investigate and someone will get back to me shortly, lol...just like the govenment agency we have been dealing with recently? And I thought Queensland was looked on as being the slow state of Australia?

We will be seeking compensation from NSW Parks now due to the loss of our animals.

Thanks again to everyone that has supported us through all of this, I know your not aloud to mention anything that is illegal on here, but basically if this happens to anyone else... forget doing things the right way, cause it just does not work!!!


----------



## starr9 (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh guys Im so so sorry to here this! This is just not cool at all!!! I wish I could do something to help!!!!


----------



## jewelz (Oct 20, 2011)

Just to let you all know, the rangers or whatever they are called have know idea of what OPMV is or that reptiles can acquire diseases and parasites by being put into care with wild caught animals! ***, are these people required to have any knowledge reptiles or do they just apply for a job and get it?


----------



## starr9 (Oct 20, 2011)

As far as I know (I may be wrong!) I started a full BA in since to become a ranger back in 2001 and we did learn all about anatomy and physiology of many different animals and geography but we did not go into full depth on a specific animal. We did learn that all animals require different enviro's but not much else. It was understood that after you finished the course that if you wished to learn more about a species that you would do further study. So if its the same then as it is now I do not think they have much info on what is required.


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 20, 2011)

I think a petition, a quiet rally by any and all carers around the area, and email and phone swamping by those of us who can't make it may be in order. Come on guys, lets work it! Media, friends, family... what can we do that's not illegal?


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 20, 2011)

I think a rally outside the offices is the way to go, nothing illegal about that as long as you behave yourselves. Where are the offices located? If I'm within sensible distance I'm in...


----------



## Greenmad (Oct 20, 2011)

Wanye and leanne im so sorry to here all this, what a pack of idiots the rangers are it must of been to hard to pick up the phone and call you to come and collect the animals.


----------



## jewelz (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks Ryan, the said people, my son and his wife included, can rot in hell for what they have done, I would love to publicly warn people who they are on this site as I am sure the animals will be sold, diseases and all cause he just could not care less about anyone, he is no son of mine as of today!


----------



## -Katana- (Oct 20, 2011)

I'd be notifying A Current Affair...they are always on the look out for new stories. The just helped a lady get rid of a disgusting nest of squatters off her land.
These government agencies need to be shamed into doing the right thing esp. when their incompetence is brought to light. Make it loud, make it splashy and bring the weight of public opinion down upon them.


----------



## Greenmad (Oct 20, 2011)

Im sorry to here leanne, i couldnt imagine the hoops you and wayne have been jumping though to get this far and then the department not coming though for you guys. I hope thing start looking up for use.


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 20, 2011)

oh man,.....this is just ridiculous,...

i just dont know what to say anymore, im totally baffled and disappointed. 

i definately agree on making ALOT of noise about this,....and suing whatever departments have shown such complete incompetance and disregard for the critters....

sorry about the crappy outcome.


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 20, 2011)

Fay I didn't suggest anything illegal in my post, all I said was that there ISN'T anything illegal about a quiet protest rally


----------



## Ozzie Python (Oct 20, 2011)

Sorry to hear guys. Good to see the governemt officials are doing the right thing- a phone call isn't too hard to make is it? Possibly because they don't get paid overtime they thought they would wait for the business day to start....God i would be furious!

Is there any way you can get these animals housed at another location and put them into quarentine? 

Good luck with the rest of your battle, god knows you need it when dealing with muppets!


----------



## PythonLegs (Oct 20, 2011)

Apologies this didnt work out, guys- all of us on the forum were sending you the best karrma we could.

Slightly off topic, to become a parks ranger in QLD you are required to have your QLD weapons licence, advanced 4x4 certification and fire management qualifications. Knowing the difference between a galah and a jackass is not required, but being either will apparently help your application.


----------



## Smithers (Oct 20, 2011)

Feel sick n sad for you both, torture from so many angles, take care guys.


----------



## Wild~Touch (Oct 20, 2011)

Leanne & Wayne

We all have a fair idea who this person is 

Don't get angry (it damages ya brain) - use your displeasure to make sure the smelly little theives will hide from the reptile keeping society for ever and live in terror of being found by one of us

Similar s....t has happened to me, only to be told that the animals died ... 

Keep your chins up
Sandee


----------



## Colin (Oct 20, 2011)

Bredlislave said:


> We all have a fair idea who this person is



I think everyone knows exactly who ths DOG is sandee..

Im so upset over this and feel so sorry for wayne an leanne.. I dont want to say more atm because Im too angry..


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 20, 2011)

And to think these animals (including ours) are being held by a carer until the two low lives in question can get their licences in order and up-to-date so they can take the animals back into their care (and this includes ours)!

So be aware of these animals being sold off (deseases etc), as I'm sure the male person involved can't look after them while living in a caravan (but then this would not surprise me). They will more then likely be put back in to the care of the female involved that has no idea how to take care of them and is only interested in flogging them off as quickly as possible for a quick buck.

So I've now come to the conclusion that you can steal someone elses animals and get away with it, you don't have to have a licence to keep reptiles and if you get caught out with them, NSW Parks will take weeks, even months to seize them into someone elses care they have on speed dial, and allow the said person that did not have the correct licence or a licence at all in the first place to get it all in order (now don't rush) so he/she can get these animals back, and it doesn't matter if they are proven to be stolen, wild caught and animals that are not permitted on a basic reptile licence under NSW reptile regulations and laws such as GTP's, wild caught and stolen... It's all good! 

I might move to NSW, were obviously living in the wrong state cause if this was us doing all of this in Queensland, I'd be typing to you from a Jail Cell right now!


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 20, 2011)

What a friggn joke!
I can only imagine how furious you guys are.
My blood is boiling.
I know you have both done everything you can to try to get your animals back but this cant be the end of it surely!?


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 20, 2011)

Can you have them charged with theft of property by the police? It should not matter that they are animals, they are still property. I'd march into your police station and demand to have charges layed against them.


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't know who they are, could I get a PM because there's no way in hell I want to deal with anyone who could do such a low down, dog dirty act as this. I'd like to warn other people I know against it as well.


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 20, 2011)

So sorry to hear. I can't believe the decc/police/rangers are letting them get away with theft/animal cruelty/ breaching all reptile keeping laws. The system is a joke. I can't believe what your son has done to you both and got away with.


----------



## Jeannine (Oct 20, 2011)

*i still think you should ring John Laws *


----------



## Colin (Oct 20, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> I don't know who they are, could I get a PM because there's no way in hell I want to deal with anyone who could do such a low down, dog dirty act as this. I'd like to warn other people I know against it as well.



pm sent


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 20, 2011)

Actually are these people in Sydney? I've been sourcing a few reps up there recently, if they are can I get a PM too please


----------



## Sarah11 (Oct 20, 2011)

i second the above please.


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks Colin. OP if you need someone to come and stand outside the DECC offices or even the police station in quiet, peaceful protest with you I'm in.


----------



## starr9 (Oct 20, 2011)

snakeynewbie said:


> Thanks Colin. OP if you need someone to come and stand outside the DECC offices or even the police station in quiet, peaceful protest with you I'm in.



I second that!!!


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 20, 2011)

If I didn't have the kids to worry about I'd travel for that. 
Thanks for the PM Colin, I'll be sure to spread the word around here. Your inbox is full btw lol


----------



## Colin (Oct 20, 2011)

Im clearing out a few messages now.. thanks nighthawk.. spread the word

_If anyone tries to look this bloke up in the members list you might not find this person in the members list anymore.. 
because I just booted him.. _


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 20, 2011)

I have just logged in at work between clients.....not supposed to but had to know what had happened.

I am in shock.....I am wondering if DECC placed them in the hands of an unidentfied 'carer' because to give them back to wayne and leannne would mean 'taking sides' and they were worried about becoming involved in litigation. However their mistake is treating the animals as if they belong to them. All DECC do is provide permission to keep the animals and withdraw that permission if there is breeches to licencing arrangements. They do not OWN the animals and as such can make decisions about the animals welfare but cannot make decisions without informing you. and essentially your animals have had decisions made about them without your input.

You need to get the ombudsman involved. They had no right to make a decision like that without informing you....that is your argument, lack of transparency that then effected your options of complaint or intervention...because by not informing you they have led you to beleive a different course of action would eventuate than what actually occured and this prevented you from taking alternative action eg getting a solicitor involved (whether you would or wouldnt have gone to a solicitor is irrelevant you thought the animals were going to be returned to you...if you thought they wearnt going to be then you might have taken this course of action). or complaining earlier to the ombudsman to get the ombudsman involved at an earlier time.

So they actually misled you to protect themselves...that is your argument to the ombudsman...whether DECC beleived you when you told them some of your animals were included is irrelevant...it is not their place to make that call...and it is not their place to make decisions that effect you without informing you first. the other party were given plenty of warning......you were left in the dark.

I hope this helps.....Please keep going...if for no other reason than to make DECC accountable for their actions.

If you need help writing the letter just PM me. If youc an send me a running sheet of everything that happened I am good at putting these things together (have worked with govt funding bodies etc)

Colin could you also PM me the name of this creep that has caused all these problems....I do speak to people on here...especially newbies and I would like to be able to caution people if they decide to deal with these unprinicpled.....well can I call them people ?

The biggest learning curve I ahve taken from this is never never never will my babies leave my sight !!!!!!!!!

I am so sorry for your loss and trouble....your nerves must be frayed

Elizabeth


----------



## Colin (Oct 20, 2011)

done elizabeth..


----------



## Red-Ink (Oct 20, 2011)

Colin said:


> done elizabeth..



One more Col please...


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 20, 2011)

wow I am SHOCKED to hear who is behind this!!
I have dealt with this guy before & he seemed lovely,. just shows you never know who you can & cant trust!
I am very disappointed to hear that one of my animals could be caught up in all of this  very sad indeed 
I just hope he managed to sell the animal before this all happened.

What the hell were the authorities thinking? what was their reasoning for handing them over to someone random?


----------



## tsbjd (Oct 20, 2011)

Can you PM me as well thanks Colin,


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 20, 2011)

so if the animals have now been seized & passed on to someone else is there any report as to what the condition of the animals are?
Cant imagine they would be in good shape considering the amount of time that has gone by without water etc.

I know we are not allowed to name & shame on here but I have a facebook Reptile page & I am wondering if I would get into any trouble for posting a warning on facebook?


----------



## Tristis (Oct 20, 2011)

what a joke...
Wanye & Leanne i hope in the end it works out for you both.
can someone please PM me, as i dont wont want to deal with these sort of people.
cheers


----------



## tsbjd (Oct 20, 2011)

Im still having trouble getting a grasp on this - Do you have a chance of getting your animals back, or are they going back to the woman? If not - is it possible to have an extended quarantine time? (12-18 months?), or even raffle / give? them to people that are informed of the circumstances, and what they have been exposed too? ( Mainly just so the woman doesnt get anything, but also would be so much better to see you get something back)


----------



## sara_sabian (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm absolutely gutted for you, this is just reprehensible; to be screwed over from so many angles.
Could someone please pm as to who this loser is? I'd hate to deal with them and would like to spread the word.
Also, I'm pretty horrified that these rangers have no awareness about reptile diseases, to think that they can come into our homes and walk around our collections possible carrying any range of nasties (and clearly having no respect nor knowledge of quarantine)... made my blood run cold.


----------



## Jen (Oct 20, 2011)

This is totally ridiculous. I just cannot comprehend how an agency that is supposed to monitor and govern reptile keepers etc has just totally fallen down like this. Everyone involved (agency wise) needs to be fired and replaced by someone competent. How are our license fees being spent if this is what happens to people who are obeying the law?

Slight possibility we may move to QLD/NSW border, could I please get a pm on names? 

And I would be willing to email whoever to get the news etc involved, I am really sickened.


----------



## GeckoJosh (Oct 20, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> One more Col please...


+1 thanks Colin


----------



## DeadCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

Again.... Sigh... Story after story of the incredibly ignorant government we have. 

And funnily enough it would take a normal person a matter of a year to wade through every government department and make a list of all the crap, all the policies and procedures that are a joke. Maybe we should just start fresh, throw it all away, make a standing rule that no one with previous political experience can re enter politics, no one can serve two consecutive terms & laws need to be put past more than a handful of basic australian residents before being passed.

Now that my anti government rant is done, I think we should look at what can be done here.

Complimentary vet investigation and treatment before return of your beloved animals 

Or 

Full compensation for all costs related to the animals that were carelessly kept from you


----------



## MesseNoire (Oct 20, 2011)

I for one would be more than happy to make a small donation towards any vet bills or for court or whatever to show my support!
I wish you both well and I hope the final result is an outcome that is fair and in your favour.
Good luck guys!


----------



## marcmarc (Oct 20, 2011)

I'd quite like to know the username of the person who caused all this. PM me please anyone. 

I'm really sorry it turned out this way and all I can say is please don't give up, you guys have mega loads of support here. All the best for you and the animals.


----------



## phantomreptiles (Oct 20, 2011)

Well that isn't what I thought the outcome would be :-(
My thoughts are with you both

Colin can I also get a pm


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 20, 2011)

your going to be a busy boy Colin!
Can anyone confirm if I can get in trouble for posting this thread & his name on my Facebook page?


----------



## SJPCLO (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi. I've been following this miscarriage of justice from the start. It has sort of put me off buying any further snakes from private sellers, which is a shame since I became friends with the two previous owners of my snakes. Is it possible to get a PM off a moderator of all people that I should be weary of ? 

Wishing you the best in your endeavour to retrieve your reptiles. 
Regards, 
Shane.


----------



## ron_peters (Oct 20, 2011)

Wow, what a horrible turn of events i feel for you guys. I do not have a huge collection but if i lost any of mine to such circumstances i would be devastated.
Can anybody please let me know who it is i need to stay away from, as i do not know alot of people so word only gets to me slowly, thanks.

Hope this can be resolved in your favour somehow
Ron


----------



## jewelz (Oct 20, 2011)

You guys all rock, I am in tears of happiness for the support we have received from everyone on APS...... 
Thanks you all from the bottom of my heart xo


----------



## snakes_666 (Oct 20, 2011)

Can you PM me as well thanks Colin, 
Thanks Brad​


----------



## crosswire (Oct 20, 2011)

Don't give up guy's. Keep fighting for your beautiful snakes! We are all here to support you through it!


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 20, 2011)

Colin said:


> Im clearing out a few messages now.. thanks nighthawk.. spread the word
> 
> _If anyone tries to look this bloke up in the members list you might not find this person in the members list anymore..
> because I just booted him.. _




Best News we have had since this whole thing started... thanks so much Colin (your a champ mate).

And thanks to everyone else for your support, it is really over whelming and never expected this much help from people we hardly or don't even know.


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Oct 20, 2011)

marcmarc said:


> I'd quite like to know the username of the person who caused all this. PM me please anyone.
> 
> I'm really sorry it turned out this way and all I can say is please don't give up, you guys have mega loads of support here. All the best for you and the animals.



Yah + 1 here please.
I have been following this upset & I really don't know how to help or how to say sorry for your loss, AS words cannot really describe this sort of behavour.

I can understand that you may not want to be in the public eye with all of this, as most of us like to keep discreet & talk between friends. 
What I would do as a last resort (probably too late now for safe return of your reptiles) is as someone else suggested, GET ONTO FOUR CORNERS or A CURRENT AFFAIR & cause some upset.

Cheers & keep smilling.
Ian


----------



## Paul Atkinson (Oct 20, 2011)

Sorry to add further to your workload Colin but could you please PM me also. Thanks.


----------



## Bel03 (Oct 20, 2011)

Could someone who has been pm'd please pm me 2.......much appreciated.

Im so sorry to hear that today turned out this way, this truly is saddening......i dont really know what else to say.......its just terrible!


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 20, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> Best News we have had since this whole thing started... thanks so much Colin (your a champ mate).
> 
> And thanks to everyone else for your support, it is really over whelming and never expected this much help from people we hardly or don't even know.



Wayne I speak for everyone who has contributed to the thread when I say that the reason we have all offered help is that all we can think is that it could so easily have happened to one of us......my goodness this is family as well.......thats what I find the saddest of all

Elizabeth


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 20, 2011)

If anyone hasn't had a PM yet feel free to throw me one; I'll pass on the names as well. Might lighten your load a bit there Colin lol.
In full agreement with Elizabeth; also, it's really nothing at all. If there's anything else we can do just say the word. It's people like that who ruin the hobby for everyone else, and it's just sickening that the authorities put in place to regulate this kind of behaviour are clearly not interested in their jobs.


----------



## Sarah11 (Oct 21, 2011)

Agreed!! Maybe there's a way we can raise money to help cover any legal fees? cause people really i wanna support you and that might be one practical way. Also, i wanna see someone charged over all this...actually a couple of people and departments perhaps


----------



## Mo Deville (Oct 21, 2011)

Could i get a PM from someone please so i know who to watch out for.

Cheers Mo


----------



## Inkage (Oct 21, 2011)

Should have reported it as a theft, if yo got the same response from wildlife/police...... Why not just take all theirs?


----------



## Em1986 (Oct 21, 2011)

This is just absolutely disgusting, i expected a much different outcome from all of this and am now feeling even worse because i live in NSW!!! I really feel gutted for you guys and also feel somewhat ripped off by the DECC by the way you guys have been treated through all of this  If something like this ever happened to me (or any of us) then this just shows how much hope i would have getting my animals back by doing everything the 'right' way.
I am now weary of the DECC and don't truely see a point in even having any such department supposedly 'controling' or 'helping' these situations, it is just a massive case of injustice for you guys as well as the poor animals!
It truely makes me sad and i really do feel for both of you :'( 


Can i please get a PM Nighthawk or anyone else, i would hate to buy my next 'baby' off these people without knowing there is a high risk of contaminating my collection with various things (not saying your snakes have diseases etc but now being in contact with other wild animals with this 'carer' nobody knows what they could have) and i would hate to buy one of the illegal animals off these people as well especially if they were all wild caught as well.


----------



## spida_0000 (Oct 21, 2011)

I have been following this thread since it started, my fingers have been crossed for you both.. But I'm completely lost for words now!! Must be heart breaking!! I really hope it works out the way it should.


----------



## Colin (Oct 21, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> If anyone hasn't had a PM yet feel free to throw me one; I'll pass on the names as well. Might lighten your load a bit there Colin lol.
> In full agreement with Elizabeth; also, it's really nothing at all. If there's anything else we can do just say the word. It's people like that who ruin the hobby for everyone else, and it's just sickening that the authorities put in place to regulate this kind of behaviour are clearly not interested in their jobs.



thanks nighthawk I appreciate the help.. I was very tired last night not online and had to get some sleep.. but I've now messaged everyone who has requested it. 

this incident and others including the DECC caging draft have really highlighted to me we need a voice.. not just on APS or other reptile forums but a group that we are all members of that has a lobbyist and some political clout. theres been talk of this before but little action so far.. 


however I will say theres been some movement for this group and registration is happeneing.. the NRKA National Reptile Keepers Association will happen and we need to get behind it and support it. the main reason why we as a group of hobbyists are such easy pickings for government bureaucracy and groups like animal liberationists that threaten our rights to keep the reptiles we love is because we are a disjointed rabble that fight amongst ourselves over anything and everything. not to say some issues are not important etc but we really need to put aside differences and unite together. issues like hybrids, jags, this that etc are things we can have our opinions on but I really feel the bottom line is we are ALL REPTILE LOVERS and we need to all unite and stand together for the greater and common good. we also need to put personal difference with others we may not like or disagree with on certain issues aside as well for the greater good.. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and we need to make sure we are strong and united as a group without infighting and de-railing ourselves. once we have a group voice that has some political clout and muscle through numbers (that translate to votes) we will be listened to and have the chance to make changes and influence the powers that be.. this is why animal libbers and other fringe groups have so much say.. they are well organised with an agenda and have lobbyists that liase with governments and government departments. 

Its about time that we all did too and stop these people (government or otherwise) that threaten OUR hobby and OUR rights to keep the reptiles we love. but we need to be united and not fight amongst ourselves (this has always been our problem & our greatest weakness)

maybe we could have prevented the incident this threads about if we had more political clout and influence with government and the media. but we're just seen as a few weirdo's that keep snakes and as a disjointed rabble with no inluence with anyone.. we need to change this perception and join ranks.. we have a huge number of keepers australia wide and its growing daily.. we need to organise ourselves and do it soon.. 

the NRKA should have in my opinion some of or several people involved from the EAG expert advisory group who have been fighting for us with the cage drafting fiasco from the start. and have state groups that liase with the established herp societies in each state, forums such as this and any other groups that reptiles keepers belong to. state groups have a representative or representatives that liase together on a national scale and spearhead the group as a whole. 

we will be heard and will make changes once we are a force that carries weight with voting power through numbers. and its about time we did.. 

end of 3-4am rant


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Oct 21, 2011)

Col is there a web site for the NRKA . PM me if so.


----------



## Mr_48Volts (Oct 21, 2011)

Colin said:


> pm sent



Can I get a PM too, this is disgusting behaviour and I really feel for the OP's. So manuy of us here abide by the rules and to see this red tape bungling pi$$es me off bigtime. To the folks who stole from you, Karma's a bitch, but it sounds like they've already been hit with the unfortunate stick anyway.


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 21, 2011)

Hey Wayne and Leanne, last I'm going to say about this is, sorry for your loss. I've actually been furious over this and now I am calm. What does this mean for your remaining collection mate, are you guys in need of snakes to start over or are you doing ok? 22 animals is a lot to lose out of your collection, let us know if there is anything we can do.

A.


----------



## Colin (Oct 21, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Col is there a web site for the NRKA . PM me if so.



not as yet roger as far as I know BUT there will be one soon and there will be a NRKA up and running soon.. its already happening and the important thing is to support it and let it evolve and grow.. it will probably have flaws to start and will be a work in progress.. but we need to start somewhere and just get the ball rolling for once instead of procrastinating and doing nothing (as per usual in this hobby)


----------



## Dragonwolf (Oct 21, 2011)

I've been trying to follow this thread and have been overwhelmed with the developments and am gutted by the final outcome. Obviously I'm naive because I was brought up to respect the law and to think that it would prevail - now I'm just bewildered.
To the OP's, I'm sincerely sorry for your loss (though you've heard it from many others) and I'm more than willing to donate/ petition if it will help.
I would also like to know who the lowlife is so that I too can be on my guard.


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Oct 21, 2011)

Colin said:


> not as yet roger as far as I know BUT there will be one soon and there will be a NRKA up and running soon.. its already happening and the important thing is to support it and let it evolve and grow.. it will probably have flaws to start and will be a work in progress.. but we need to start somewhere and just get the ball rolling for once instead of procrastinating and doing nothing (as per usual in this hobby)



I good start would be to have access to lawyers with experiance dealing with the reptiles keeping laws in each state.
So if anyone needs help they can access the best possible lawyers for their situation. etc



Stay strong Wayne and Leanne .

cheers Roger


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 21, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> And to think these animals (including ours) are being held by a carer until the two low lives in question can get their licences in order and up-to-date so they can take the animals back into their care (and this includes ours)!



WTH,....?
im hoping i read that wrong,....


----------



## Colin (Oct 21, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> I good start would be to have access to lawyers with experiance dealing with the reptiles keeping laws in each state.
> So if anyone needs help they can access the best possible lawyers for their situation. etc
> Stay strong Wayne and Leanne .
> 
> cheers Roger



yes good idea mate but lawyers with reptile law experience may be hard to find.. there is one bloke in melb who I know is pretty good and could be of assitance to a NRKA group. the thing is lawyers cost money and so do lobbyists so these expenses will have to be covered by membership fees, donations etc.. 

and maybe have a system like strata special levies? where if the group needs funding for a legal fight, if we can call on members to toss in some money. it would soon add up considerably.. so a group with for example 20,000 members who threw in $5 - $10ea to fund legals to fight our fights and for lobbyists etc adds up to a tidy sum of fighting funds.. and Im sure we can all afford a few dollars for our united causes when needed..

of course the finances would need to be accounted for professionally and audited etc.. its expensive but with a yearly membership contribution and maybe on occassion special levies (as suggested) with the bucket going around for member contributions when needed we could have a cracker legal team, lobbyist etc 

then let some departmental dipstick try to bully reptile keepers with their BS and standover tactics  political parties will be much more available and open to our voices when we have some unified numbers with a voting potential too.. things may start to change for us all for the better but if we sit on our hands I think the hobby will be targeted (if its not alrerady) by these animal libbers who have been trying to influence governt depts for some time.


----------



## waruikazi (Oct 21, 2011)

I can feel a new thread starting... 

I'm not knocking the idsea of an assosciation but running one (with 20 000 members) would be a full time gig for someone. 

And allowing all keepers to join as full members i think would be fraught with danger. We all know there are some utter drop kicks who love to keep reptiles and do dumb things (like walk around the street with snakes draped around them etc) and when they get picked on by parks etc they would love to have someone to complain too.

Maybe a tiered system, or even more of a union type set up....



Colin said:


> yes good idea mate but lawyers with reptile law experience may be hard to find.. there is one bloke in melb who I know is pretty good and could be of assitance to a NRKA group. the thing is lawyers cost money and so do lobbyists so these expenses will have to be covered by membership fees, donations etc..
> 
> and maybe have a system like strata special levies? where if the group needs funding for a legal fight, if we can call on members to toss in some money. it would soon add up considerably.. so a group with for example 20,000 members who threw in $5 - $10ea to fund legals to fight our fights and for lobbyists etc adds up to a tidy sum of fighting funds.. and Im sure we can all afford a few dollars for our united causes when needed..
> 
> ...


----------



## wokka (Oct 21, 2011)

I admit that i have not read all 23 pages of this thread, but as I understand it a breeder lent someone some animals on a breeding loan and that someone wont give them back.
I am not sure that the role of the NRKA would be to solve civil disputes , however the intervention by government departments seems to have been tardy, to say the least, possibly due to the lack of a clear role for those departments. I don't understand why DECC-Parks and Wildlife have control over domestic (captive) animals. It appears from the DECC actions and in action that the confusion exists also within the department. 
One of the first jobs to be done is to visit the licencing system and define the role of the depertment and the reason for those roles. The current involvement of the DECC seems to do nothing to help captive animals, wild animals of the keepers in between.


----------



## gosia (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi!!

I have been following this thread....and oh my GOD!!!! I am sooooo sorry for you guys! I can't believe police did nothing, surely this should have been considered a theft - no matter if its snakes, tv or car!!! It is your property!!! And DES..... well don't get me started!!!


Bottom line - if there is anything I can do for you guys, please throw it at me!!! I do hope that you fight it coz not only this person but DES deserves to pay for this!!!!

GOOD LUCK!!!!

Gosia


----------



## jewelz (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi all,
We are nearly at DECC Alstonville and we are not leaving without our animals, if your in the area it could be interesting......


----------



## starr9 (Oct 21, 2011)

I can be there in 4hrs (as im on the sunny coast) if you need me!!! I can bring coffee etc if you need!!!!!

Good on you both for fighting on!!! Keep it up and know I (and others on here!) support you 100%!!!!!


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 21, 2011)

Good luck, did you let the media know. It might be a good idea as it will add more pressure. If I was close I would definitely come to lend some vocal support.


----------



## snakeynewbie (Oct 21, 2011)

You go get 'em!


----------



## Colin (Oct 21, 2011)

Anyone know any wildlife carers in the Alstonville and surrounding areas? message me or Jungleman or jewelz.. 

Thats where they will be (DECC are too lazy and totally inexeperienced to feed anything except their fat stomachs) so it wouldn't be too hard to pick your animals out from the bunch at the carers and take them back over the border where they belong..


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 21, 2011)

Best of luck guys! Go for it!


----------



## PythonLegs (Oct 21, 2011)

I would also encourage anyone who has read this to voice your concerns. Whether the RSPCA or DERM, let them know exactly what you think of their handling of the situation- they won't know how po'd we are unless we tell them. I know that after hearing how much money in donations will be directed elsewhere by me as a result of this and similar cases this year, Michael Hornby was making all sorts of idiotic promises.


----------



## starr9 (Oct 21, 2011)

PythonLegs said:


> I would also encourage anyone who has read this to voice your concerns. Whether the RSPCA or DERM, let them know exactly what you think of their handling of the situation- they won't know how po'd we are unless we tell them. I know that after hearing how much money in donations will be directed elsewhere by me as a result of this and similar cases this year, Michael Hornby was making all sorts of idiotic promises.



What number did you ring please? as I was thinking if I called the same ppl as well as others I would add more to this! I want to do something to help so if I can ring or email anyone please pm me any info and ill do it!!!


----------



## sigridshurte (Oct 21, 2011)

You have looked at all other options, if they wanna play dirty... i think you should too.

who are the people involved ??? just too make sure i dont deal with them? a private PM please

GO JEWELZ, i like your attitude, dont give up!!!


----------



## jewelz (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi All,
We have our animals, heading back home now, they are not in good condition  We have cleared one of our spare rooms and we will brings these babies back to condition.

There was a completely different attitude when we got to DECC compared to the last few weeks, something has happened between yesterday and today as they were **** scared and could not do enough for us.

Thanks again to all of you, especially Colin, we will put pics up after they settle in  

BBQ at ours if your up this way 

P.s. please don't ask to borrow our snakes.....lol


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 21, 2011)

That's great news you have the snakes back. Hope you can bring them back to good health. So happy to finally hear some good news


----------



## PythonLegs (Oct 21, 2011)

Manager
Customer Referral Centre
Regional Service Delivery
Department of Environment and Resource Management
GPO Box 2454
Brisbane Qld 4001 

[email protected]

RSPCA

Queensland Head Office 301 Fairfield RdFairfieldQLD4103
(07) 3426 9999
[email protected]


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 21, 2011)

OMG YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
EXCELLENT NEWS!!
I am sooo happy for you guys! good on you for fighting on!
Sooooo good to hear you have them back,. I am stoked for you guys!
I hope you can get them back to good health!

I am soooo happy ,. this news has made my week!


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 21, 2011)

OMG YAY!! I'm so happy for you guys  
Even in bad condition, at least they're now with people who will give them what they need. It's still a shame it had come to a road trip for that to happen, but at least they're finally home.
Congrats!


----------



## starr9 (Oct 21, 2011)

**** yer!!!!! Im so so happy to here this!!!!!!!!! WOOOOHOO!!!!!! Im going to have a drink or 2 4 you both in a sec!! YA!!! this made my week!!!


----------



## Colin (Oct 21, 2011)

thats the BEST news I've had in a long time  congrats wayne and leanne
Im so happy for you guys.. have a great weekend and will talk soon.


----------



## ozstorm (Oct 21, 2011)

did they only give back the 4 that were your's, or did you end up getting all of them ?


----------



## PythonLegs (Oct 21, 2011)

Great news guys- goes to show what dedication and sheer bloody-mindedness can accomplish!


----------



## Kyro (Oct 21, 2011)

Really happy to hear you got them back guys, good on you for not giving up & I hope you gave the bunch of clowns a serve on your way out the door....


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Oct 21, 2011)

Great news,
Bit of bugger that you won't loan now. I heard that you had some nice snakes & I was going to ask for a breeding loan LOL.

Top stuff & keep smilling.
Cheers
Ian


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 21, 2011)

weeeeeeeeeeeee!!! So happy to hear!


----------



## Jande (Oct 21, 2011)

Fantastic news! I've been checking back periodically to see the progress you've made with all of this. I'm so glad you've got your snakes back and I really do think this will serve as a warning for others. It's a shame that it took as long as it did, but at least the outcome is somewhat positive. 

I will be thinking twice in future about donating to wildlife organisations after reading along here. I know the majority of them may be fantastic, but this is a perfect demonstration of just how little power and care they have when it comes to the legal side of an animal's welfare. There are other ways to support them without giving money, thankfully!

Take care of yourselves and all the best with the recovery of your animals. 

/cheer!


----------



## Jeannine (Oct 21, 2011)

*congrats on getting your property back, i would say some heads started to roll *


----------



## MR_IAN_DAVO (Oct 21, 2011)

Jande said:


> Fantastic news! I've been checking back periodically to see the progress you've made with all of this. I'm so glad you've got your snakes back and I really do think this will serve as a warning for others. It's a shame that it took as long as it did, but at least the outcome is somewhat positive.
> 
> I will be thinking twice in future about donating to wildlife organisations after reading along here. I know the majority of them may be fantastic, but this is a perfect demonstration of just how little power and care they have when it comes to the legal side of an animal's welfare. There are other ways to support them without giving money, thankfully!
> 
> ...



Just a thought that it may serve as a warning or perhaps a wake up to the authorities as well??? Hopefully they might learn something???

Cheers
Ian


----------



## Wild~Touch (Oct 21, 2011)

Leanne & Wayne

If you would like some rats (free of charge) to get little guys going again just PM me

Cheers
Sandee


----------



## -Katana- (Oct 21, 2011)

Bredlislave said:


> Leanne & Wayne
> 
> If you would like some rats (free of charge) to get little guys going again just PM me
> 
> ...




That was a really sweet offer, Sandee!


----------



## Wiganov (Oct 21, 2011)

That's tremendous news. What a relief.


----------



## spyder6052 (Oct 21, 2011)

congrats guys, now go after all involved to get compensation for vet bills, loss of income etc. DECC should be made to pay to bring *YOUR *reptiles back to the condition they were in before you lent them out

and to the DECC members who read this (i know you do) hold your heads in shame, what you have done is absolutely dispicable, and goes a long way to prove that you are a bunch of morons


----------



## Smithers (Oct 21, 2011)

Great to hear their are back home and it's gone in your favour. Thanks for keeping us updated  Time for a cold one or two


----------



## KaotikJezta (Oct 21, 2011)

YAY! That is so good to here and about time as well!


----------



## Dragonwolf (Oct 21, 2011)

Thank god (and I'm not even religious).


----------



## Fiamma (Oct 21, 2011)

YAYYYYY!!! I've got goose bumps on top of goosebumps....Can't tell you how happy I am for you both, if I could make it to your bbq I would show you. Well done to you for hangin in there and fighting for your babies. So glad they are back home with Mummy and Daddy!!!!! Think I'll have a beer to celebrate.

Cheers...Deb


----------



## spida_0000 (Oct 21, 2011)

Congratulations Wayne and Leanne!! That's great news, defiantly made my night to know your hard work as paid off! With the love you have shown for your animals on here I'm sure they will be happy and healthy in no time at all!! Even though I'm sure it will be heart breaking to see them in poor condition i hope it won't deter from the joy of your victory  Congrats again!!!


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm over the moon you two! Look forward to catching up soon, we're LONG overdue for that Sunny Coast herp trip! See you's at the S&T expo, first round's on me. You-know-who, if you're reading this, I'd advise against showing YOUR face there again. Ever.


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 21, 2011)

Leanne and Wayne this is wonderful news. Promse me when the dust has settled you will write a letter detailing what has happened to the ombudsman requesting that they intervene for you and ask for justification for the DECC's behaviour and a review of procedure. At the very least DECC will be required to respond which will increase someones workload which is only natural justice after what has happened. There has to be some accountability.... imagine if you did not have the strength to keep going the way you have...the DECC would have just done what they felt like with no accountability at all...and they had no right to put you in the poweless position they did....and I suspect on reflection they realised this and that is why you got your animals back.

Colin I think your idea for an association is excellent....what would be wonderful is a skills audit of members...there must be people out there with a wide range of skills and experience that we could call on for situations such as this. For example I am sure that somewhere...surely there is a lawyer...who keeps reptiles.... we could have called on to support and advise Leanne and Wayne. If we could get organised then it will be harder for the 'powers that be' to treat us the way that they do.


I am really looking forward to photographs of the babies......

WELL DONE

Elizabeth


----------



## Renenet (Oct 21, 2011)

Woohoo!


----------



## crosswire (Oct 21, 2011)

Renenet said:


> Woohoo!



Agreed! Fantastic news!


----------



## marcmarc (Oct 21, 2011)

Fantastic news guys!!. 
If anything this might have changed things for the better, as painful/stressful as it was for you guys. I really hope the government mob(s) get their act together now so this doesn't happen again. I also hope all the people responsible are made accountable for what they have done, or let happen.


----------



## DanNG (Oct 21, 2011)

Congrats, that's great news


----------



## jewelz (Oct 21, 2011)

May I say again, you guys are so amazing, thank you again for all your love and support, you have no idea what this means to Wayne and I...
We have quarantined all the animals and we are working on getting them back to peak condition, I do not want to post photos ATM due to their condition but I promise I will in the next few weeks. 
I have cried many tears today both in happiness that we got the animals back, even though it was a tough fight, but also in great sadness that the animals were not looked after..
If only they were given back in the first instance thing would have been so much better both for us, them and most importantly, the animals.......
Life deals some cruels blows at times, but we can speak up, animals can't.

Please stay in touch all of you and thanks again from the bottom of our hearts.

Leanne 
Xox


----------



## FAY (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi Jewelz, 
Congrats to you and Wayne for getting your snakes back.
Just a question?
Were the authorities shocked by the condition of the animals?
If so, do you think they have learnt anything after all this?


----------



## Octane (Oct 21, 2011)

And in the end the battle was won. Pitty it turned into a battle in the first place. 

Also to the DECCW/OEH (or what ever you are named today) department and the animal welfare organisations (that really didn't care in this case) have a good look long at yourselves. You seem to have lost sight of what your job is that is not being in the office and governing by regulation or popular opinion. It is providing a service, taking action and getting a result. 

Octane


----------



## jewelz (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi Fay,
They had know idea about snakes what so ever, they were extremely nervous about us being there and did not even know a coastal from a jungle or Darwin etc...........what else can I say! Apparently the RSPCA were present when the animals were seized but they would not give us any information or let us view the other animals.... we are now in the process of applying for the others to be released to us and the persons involved in this matter to never ever hold a reptile license again.
Thanks for your support throughout this Fay,

Leanne xo


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 21, 2011)

Hey guys...

Have only just sat down after getting all the little guys settled in with full time heat for a few days, in a room of their own for the next 12 months or more and clean water.

our little Spikey (Central Bearded Dragon) was very under-nourished with a lot of loose skin, you could even see on his face and the other snakes as to how scared they were. But to our surprise, we also got Spiky's enclosure back which he use to love. But when we got it home, we had to clean the disgusting mess that was left in his enclosure (rotting kitty litter that hasn't been changed for god knows how many months along with dead woodies and rotting crickets. After we spent hours cleaning and bathing it in F10, we filled it up with his favourite reptile sand and all his furniture and when we put him in, you could literally see him come alive. We then started out by giving him some fresh crickets (around 10 all dusted) and it was like he had never been fed before, he polished every one of them off, so I went down to our fridge and got another 10 meal worms out, he also polished them off. I've never seen him eat so much in one setting, so he was obviously starving  But now he has a full tummy and is resting under his heat lamp, I'm sure you can see a smile on his face  Leanne was in tears

And just to let everyone know.... the other 4 pythons along with spiky we got back were the only ones we lent out to the two in question. So yes, we have got everything back including spiky's enclosure which we thought we would never see again. But the total that was seized from the property in Alstonville was 17, plus our 5.

Before we left from the Gold Coast this morning, we called NSW Parks and said we are coming down to get our animals. The admin assistant said that all the park rangers were out on field jobs and would not be back till 4pm, we said we are coming down anyway! We arrived around 2pm NSW time and we were surprised to see 2 or 3 park rangers appear with paper work in hand asking if we were Mr & Mrs Webb? Well... Leanne and I just looked at one another like What the hell has happened? They couldn't help us enough, they explained everything and said they have our animals and there on there way to the NSW Parks office as we speak and they assured us they were well looked after, they were all very nervous and couldn't apologise enought, they even helped load our car with the heavy enclosure and animals...

The only thing I can think of is the email I sent yesterday to every Park Ranger we knew of there, including the head marchos of DECC advising them of the papers, the ombudsman, including a link to this thread, I have a feeling they must of read this entire thread...lol...

So again guys, Leanne and I are so so thankful for the support and the out-pouring of disgust you have written in regards to the way DECC was handling things. I really do believe our positive and very happy out-come today was because of everyone that has written their opinion on this thread and that DECC have obviously ended up reading! You've got no idea as to how thankful we are that APS and the friends we have created along the way, we really both believe this has really helped us get our animals back.... Thanks to Everyone that has written in and supported us!

Colin, thanks to you again mate. Leanne and I would also like to support your idea for a legal battle ground or website to protect the reptile community from disasters like this from ever happening again, or at least have the legal backing if we need it. But more to the fact that govenment run bodies like DECC or anyone else that thinks they can poop on reptile owners again and not be accountable for their actions, especially in regards to the safety of the animals, will think bl**dy twice before trying to run us smaller people into the ground ever again!

P.S. Leanne has just informed me there are certain people on here that are still concerned for some reptiles that we unfortunately could not bring home with us today. Please don't worry, as were still on their case. Immediately after this, I will be following instructions given by the Rangers today on how to apply for taking ownership of the remaining animals. We will be pushing this till we get them back in our hands as we are also concerned for their welfare, especially after seeing the condition of ours. It really sickens us that someone can be this low towards something that depends on us to take care of them... We haven't finished yet!!!!


----------



## Jen (Oct 22, 2011)

Congrats on getting your animals back! And good on you for your attempts to save the rest of the seized animals. I hope everything goes well from now on, now it sounds like the agencies involved have had a kick up the kiester. I really hope this prompts some serious review of staffing policies and minimum requirements for a job in said agencies, as at the moment they will apparently hire anyone who has kept a gold fish alive for more than a day...


----------



## abnrmal91 (Oct 22, 2011)

Mate so glad to hear that your little spikey is eating and starting his path back to full health. Keep us updated once all the snakes are feeding as well. I really do hope that some positives can come from such a bad situation. I really hope someones head rolled (or at least mostly severed) for causing you both such heartache. All the best with bringing them back to full health as well as trying to get the other 17 reps. 

Cheers Daniel


----------



## snakes_666 (Oct 22, 2011)

jewelz said:


> Hi All,
> We have our animals, heading back home now, they are not in good condition  We have cleared one of our spare rooms and we will brings these babies back to condition.
> 
> There was a completely different attitude when we got to DECC compared to the last few weeks, something has happened between yesterday and today as they were **** scared and could not do enough for us.
> ...



Congradulations guys on a good outcome hope everythings is on the up from here.

thanks Brad


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 22, 2011)

I am sooo happy you have your animals back but I am very upset to have confirmation that one of my animals is caught up in all of this & still is! & worst of all I dont even know what condition he is in!
I am disgusted that they could not even tell you he is ok?
Can I please have the name & number of who I need to speak to, I need to know he is ok as it is really playing on my mind.
Your Son seemed like a nice guy at the time but gee I am kicking myself now,. it was a very reluctant sale as it was 

I am not going to rest easy until I know he is safely in your hands.
Whats the next step?


----------



## damian83 (Oct 22, 2011)

bbq im in lol



jewelz said:


> Hi All,
> We have our animals, heading back home now, they are not in good condition  We have cleared one of our spare rooms and we will brings these babies back to condition.
> 
> There was a completely different attitude when we got to DECC compared to the last few weeks, something has happened between yesterday and today as they were **** scared and could not do enough for us.
> ...


----------



## Nighthawk (Oct 22, 2011)

It makes me so incredibly sad and angry to hear that the powers-that-be, who we trust(ed) to speak up for those who can't don't even have a basic understanding of the animals involved, or even what the are required to do. Funny that after you sent the e-mail they were more than happy to oblige, but it SHOULD NOT have come to that by any means.
It's up to us to remind them.


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 22, 2011)

Gecko :) said:


> I am sooo happy you have your animals back but I am very upset to have confirmation that one of my animals is caught up in all of this & still is! & worst of all I dont even know what condition he is in!
> I am disgusted that they could not even tell you he is ok?
> Can I please have the name & number of who I need to speak to, I need to know he is ok as it is really playing on my mind.
> Your Son seemed like a nice guy at the time but gee I am kicking myself now,. it was a very reluctant sale as it was
> ...



Unfortunately Gecko, we don't have any contact details as to where your python is, parks won't release it to keep the carer protected. But they did assure me the entire collection is being well looked after by a highly experienced and excellent carer.

We have written to the appropriate authorities in regards to getting the entire collection handed over to us, so now it's just a matter of waiting for them to respond to us and this won't be till Monday onwards. I just hope they respond quickly so we can get them safely home and you can rest knowing they are being looked after (especially your little guy).

Will keep in touch


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the offers, but after what has happened, DECC has said that we will more then likely get them handed over to us.

There are also other members on here that have sold some of these pythons to you know who and are really concerned for their particular welfare and are trusting we will get them back into our safe hands.


----------



## starr9 (Oct 22, 2011)

I can lend you an 80w heat cord and a ceramic light fitting if you need it!!! Just pm if you do! Congrats 4 you both!! Hope you get the rest very soon!!!!!!


----------



## DeadCricket (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm sure most of us would have some useful things kicking around. I do believe I have both a basking globe and a purple night globe around somewhere. I also have some excess food if that is needed. 

Just let us know if we can help


----------



## spyder6052 (Oct 22, 2011)

in my personal opinion i think the DECC should come here and explain themselves, and what measures they will be taking to stop anything like this happening again


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks for the kind offers everyone, but we have everything we need here and ready to go


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 22, 2011)

Hi Wayne and Leanne

What a turnaround...as distressing as it is I strongly encourage you to photograph the animals in your care to demonstrate the neglect and document everything that you have found. Just in case you need it as evidence .............Youc an always delete the photographs as a bad memory when the dust has settled.


----------



## nicki71 (Oct 22, 2011)

I am so happy you got your animals back but also discusted at what you had to go through to get them back


----------



## Sutto82 (Oct 22, 2011)

I opened this thread this morning and read half of it then and finsihed it now when I came home. I was getting frustrated just reading it, but I am happy to hear you have gotten back what you lent.

Good luck in becoming the carer of the other pythons. Hopefully the other parties involved will get dealt with in one way or another soon.


----------



## gosia (Oct 22, 2011)

Oh my god!!! Yeah baby!!!! So happy for you guys, I fact will pop a bottle od red right now well done!!!


----------



## Tildy (Oct 23, 2011)

Just read the fantastic news! I am so glad you were able to get your babies back again and if the authorities have any sense they will hand the rest over to you as well. It sux that you and your snakes had to go through that particular hell but I'm so glad it ended well!


----------



## Chris1 (Oct 25, 2011)

Just wondering how Mr Spiky and co are going?
im finding myself thinking of them whenever i cuddle my beardies,...(which is alot,...lol)

any news on the rest?


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 25, 2011)

Hey Chris, the spiky dude is doing great, nice bright yellow colour now and still loving his food.

The other 4 pythons had their first meal the other night, although 2 were not interested. So will try them again in another week or two.


----------



## Basstones (Oct 25, 2011)

Wow. Just caught up on the latest 10 pages since I last got a chance to read the thread.

Even as an bystander with no affiliation to any of the animals or parties, it was hard to read and think about the animals being in those conditions...not to mention the frustration and inability of the government departments that are meant to be prevent these situations.

You've done a commendable job to keep on this, and ensure that the right thing is done. I truly believe that on some level you have stood up for the community and reinforced to certain areas where the priorities should be. As such, the community needs to recognise this could happen to anyone and our only strength is to band together, hopefully some good will come from this in that regard and prevent this occurring again. In the same light, the responsibility of the additional 17 snakes shouldn't fall on you, but good work on fighting for them. I'd be interested in contributing in some fashion towards their care if it does fall down to you, I know how the costs of that many snakes can add up.

Once again, so happy for you and well done.


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 25, 2011)

I am confused!
I have been on the phone to National Parks to see if I could receive an update on 2 of our pythons that have been tied up in this whole debacle & have been told 2 different stories,.

Originally I was told that all the animals including ours were ok & being cared for by a Wildlife carer until a Reptile Ballot took place to re home them & that I had to call another number to inquire if I could have the animals returned to me as the original NSW Licenced owner as they will not release them to Leanne & Wayne.

I called the number & kept receiving voice mail, so I left a message this morning.
I got impatient & decided to call back again & the person I needed to speak to answered the phone,.

I told him who I was & why I was calling & that I understood there was going to be a Reptile Ballot for these animals that were seized & was there anyway I could have the 2 pythons returned to us rather than them being included in the ballot?,.

I was originally told they have not confirmed if there was going to be a ballot & that all remaining animals are being cared for until the original owner could provide paperwork to prove the animals were his?!
I would have thought that his Reptile licence would be proof of what animals have been acquired in the past & that yes I know they are his as I sold them to him,.
I expressed my disgust how could they even consider releasing these animals back to the original owner considering what they have been through & the obvious blatant disrespect the original owner has shown to all of these animals!?

He then questioned me as to why I was calling,. who was I & what was my interest in the animals?!
.....Not sure if he just wasnt listening to the whole first half of the convo or what?
He then questioned me if I had a reptile license?

The story then changed back to the original story I was told by the first lady , that all animals will be included in a reptile ballot & it was up to me to apply the same way everyone else does.

He made a few other comments about how I should have checked that this guy was properly licensed & that I had sold a Green tree to someone on a class 1 license,.
When asking how can we avoid this as basically we are taking the other persons word that they are correctly licensed.
He told me that I should have checked with them (National Parks) to make sure he held a class 2 before doing the deal 

So from now on EVERY deal we do interstate where the license cant be visually verified I am going to call National Parks to check that they are infact correctly licensed,.

Leanne & Wayne,. I take my hat off to you guys for your persistence & patience, I think I would go nuts after dealing with that type of mentality after too long,.
Its all about paper work, policies & procedures.

I will be happy if I know they are going to someone that is actually going to care for them,. I just dont want them returned to the crettin that we originally sold them to as he has well & truly blown his chances imo.


----------



## killimike (Oct 25, 2011)

That's incredible! I shudder to think how much these people are paid...

After all the demonisation of reptile keepers that occurs, this kind of bureaucratic incompetence is disgustingly hypocritical.


----------



## Ramsayi (Oct 25, 2011)

Gecko :) said:


> He made a few other comments about how I should have checked that this guy was properly licensed & that I had sold a Green tree to someone on a class 1 license,.
> When asking how can we avoid this as basically we are taking the other persons word that they are correctly licensed.
> He told me that I should have checked with them (National Parks) to make sure he held a class 2 before doing the deal
> So from now on EVERY deal we do interstate where the license cant be visually verified I am going to call National Parks to check that they are infact correctly licensed,.


Kelly,
I wouldn't worry about being responsible to check on interstate buyers details.Provided the buyer gives you a MA number and you apply for an export permit you have fulfilled your obligation.You pay your $30 so as far as I am concerned it's up to the DECC to do any checks they deem necessary.


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 25, 2011)

Welcome to our world Gecko...

That is just a small taste of the mentality we have been dealing with for over the past 6 weeks and yes, it has been extremely frustrating and stressful.

The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, not that any of the hands even know what to do when the word reptile is mentioned... it's like alert alert alert, run for your lives, someone is asking about a reptile 

And we totally agree... what the hell are they thinking when it comes to giving these so called irresponsible reptile keepers another chance (and it's been at least a dozen chances now) at getting their paperwork together and there actually going to let them take these animals back into care??? Not only were our animals under-nourished and dehydrated, but we saw a few of the other animals also (minus your animal Gecko) that were in poor condition also. We even pointed this out to the park rangers when we were picking our animals up and the response was like... huh, oh ok? Where the hell did they find these people to do this type of work?

And I just laughed when I received an email from Ron Hearring regarding the release of the other 17 animals into our care... he said they were only going to release them to nsw licenced reptile keepers if the accused did not get their paperwork in order on time. I replied back stating how funny it was that Ron was the one that originally emailed us a PDF file that was signed and stated we were to take ownership of the entire 22 animals, this email included what we thought was a legal document and export permit to have all 22 animals seized and handed directly over to us? That was the first notice, then he changed this again when 5pm, the 9th October expired, he then changed this to the 19th October, and after the 19th expired, he changed it to state that only our animals of 4 pythons plus 1 lizard were to be released to us, but only if we could prove they were ours? Now he states he is only going to release the remaining 17 animals on a ballot to nsw licenced keepers only... What A Joke!!!

Not to worry, as this has now been reported to the NSW Ombudsman and they have already advised this is going to go further!


----------



## killimike (Oct 25, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Kelly,
> I wouldn't worry about being responsible to check on interstate buyers details.Provided the buyer gives you a MA number and you apply for an export permit you have fulfilled your obligation.You pay your $30 so as far as I am concerned it's up to the DECC to do any checks they deem necessary.



I was gonna say that ramsayi, but forgot  

Exactly! If you sold interstate then two different agencies were informed well before the transaction of the type of animal and the parties, and one agency even actually took money presumably to do exactly these checks. Ridiculous.


----------



## Ramsayi (Oct 25, 2011)

killimike said:


> I was gonna say that ramsayi, but forgot
> 
> Exactly! If you sold interstate then two different agencies were informed well before the transaction of the type of animal and the parties, and one agency even actually took money presumably to do exactly these checks. Ridiculous.



There is even more to it than that.Even locally,anyone can dodgey up a license and put whatever details they like on it so who's to say the license you sight isn't bogus? Bottom line is we are not employed by the DECC to ensure all is legit and for them to insinuate that we are is a bit of a joke.


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 25, 2011)

Hey Wayne,. Ron is the guy I have had the pleasure of dealing with & he didnt seem to know which way was up or down,.
He went on to ask me questions that I had already given the answers to,. I think he is a little confused as to what is actually going on as his story seemed to jump around alot,. he then had to cut our conversation short as he has a meeting to attend to 

Mark & Mike,.
Unfortunately the little scum bucket in question is basically on the NSW border so we didnt need an export permit


----------



## Ramsayi (Oct 25, 2011)

Can you PM me his name please.


----------



## Gecko :) (Oct 25, 2011)

Done,.
I was suprised when I heard who it was & obviously dissapointed when I found out that not 1 but 2 of our Pythons are envolved.


----------



## gosia (Oct 25, 2011)

Hey Ramsayi - my 4 year old tried for a whole minute to squash your fly lol


----------



## nicki71 (Oct 26, 2011)

This really makes me want to get qualified to work looking after the animals that no one in power seems to care about


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 26, 2011)

nicki71 said:


> This really makes me want to get qualified to work looking after the animals that no one in power seems to care about



I'll gladly be your first reference on your resume nicki


----------



## Maximum (Oct 26, 2011)

Absolutely horrendous. I don't understand how government agencies are so incompetent, kick them out of office and get a bunch of APS fellas in there, I'm sure things would be done right then.

As stated earlier it's funny that if we do a single thing wrong in any respects as in late handing in of your book or even maybe going 5/10kph over the speed limit we immediately get handed fines left, right and centre and in one case, I even got close to abused by a cop because I had a defect on my car. We really need to inspect how agencies are running, not just set them up and hope they run consistently and never do check ups. This is just stupid.


----------



## SteveNT (Oct 26, 2011)

Good work guys. Stuck to your guns and got through the hard yards. Very impressed. Mindless beaurocracy usually frustrates people into submission.

Your snakes are very lucky to have you!


----------



## Colin (Oct 28, 2011)

Happy Birthday Wayne!!! have a great day mate


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 28, 2011)

Thanks mate


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 28, 2011)

Happy Birthday Wayne !!


----------



## Fantazmic (Oct 30, 2011)

Zephyr you need to read the whole thread !!


----------



## abnrmal91 (Nov 8, 2011)

Any update on the whole situation.


----------



## Wonder_Woma (Nov 8, 2011)

Good You got them back!!


----------



## Gecko :) (Nov 8, 2011)

Cant believe that [NAME REMOVED] is definitely being given a second chance with these Animals provided he can prove ownership!!
He SMSed me at 630am this morning asking if I can provide proof that I sold him 2 of the Pythons in question,.
I really dont want him getting them back!
He has let them down once, who is to say it wont happen again! 
What the friggn hell is wrong with the department giving this guy another chance!


----------



## abnrmal91 (Nov 8, 2011)

Gecko I would tell him to jam it (would love to be more offensive but can't) the OEH are a absolute joke.


----------



## SamNabz (Nov 8, 2011)

I've never noticed this thread before and just spent the last hour or so reading through it - all I can say is WOW.

I can't believe the time, effort and ridiculous emotional roller coaster you guys had to endure to retrieve what was rightfully yours in the first place. When I read that the person in question was actually your son and his bitter wife/ex-wife, I was absolutely stumped..!

To think someone you gave birth to and raised would turn their back on you and make your life a living hell, all because he didn't have the nerve to stand up to that wretched woman is extremely cowardly and downright disrespectful. 

As for the DECC and others involved, they did exactly what most of us expected them to do..which is nothing. They really are useless & a waste of our money, and they remind us of this constantly.

Anyway, I am glad after all your efforts, you were able to retrieve your animals; you, Wayne and Leanne, are truly one of a kind. Not many people would have gone through so much effort to ensure the animals were back in safe hands so they could receive the proper care necessary to bring them back to health. So kudos to you guys.

The support you received from members of this forum and the reptile community in general was astounding. If there is anything I can do to help (donations, accessories etc.), please feel free to let me know. I wish you both the best of luck!


----------



## Gecko :) (Nov 8, 2011)

well I have just spent the last 1/2 hr on the phone to his Ex Wife & was told somewhat different version of events,.
There is always 2 sides to a story.

She assures me that all of the animals were being looked after the whole time they were in her care & that she would NEVER punish animals because of her & her husbands personal issues & that this was completely incorrect.
She said before the animals were taken from her they were photographed in their enclosures & were all healthy & in good sized enclosures,. she is happy to send me these pics once she receives copies.

Either way,. I am still not sure what happened but I am not sure why this situation escalated into what it did.

Not trying to turn this into a he said she said situation but just saying the version of the story I just received is somewhat different.


----------



## Kimberlyann (Nov 8, 2011)

Gecko :) said:


> She assures me that all of the animals were being looked after the whole time they were in her care & that she would NEVER punish animals because of her & her husbands personal issues & that this was completely incorrect.
> She said before the animals were taken from her they were photographed in their enclosures & were all healthy & in good sized enclosures,. she is happy to send me these pics once she receives copies.



That's not really the whole point of this thou, yes they where worried about the state of the animals but there is still no excuse for her holding them back from getting what is rightly theres.


----------



## Gecko :) (Nov 8, 2011)

No its not really the point,. I was just making a few points,.without relaying the whole conversation we had,.
 
Apparently shes the one that actually called National Parks to ask them what to do & what was the procedure as the licenced owner no longer lives at the location the animals are being kept & that she didnt even have a licence & they told her under no circumstances was she to release the snakes to anyone until she has been told too otherwise she would be charged?
So she says she was just following orders that were given to her..
Like I said , I dont know the story & dont really want to be caught up in all of this,.im just saying there are 2 sides & I have somewhat changed my attitude slightly to the whole situation.


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 8, 2011)

Perhaps Gecko you should ask her about the AVO she placed on us so we couldn't get near our animals... oh let me guess, she forgot to mention that to you?

You were also speaking to someone that worked for the nsw attorney general, in other words she is very good at her job, knows how to pull the legal strings (so to speak) and like most goverment run departments... are very good manipulators.... So congratulations, your now another victim.

Also how do you explain a fully grown adult bearded dragon with skin that you could pull away from his back, ribs showing and so hungry that he scoffed down 10 crickets, 10 meal worms, a small bowl of vegetables and bathed himself in a tub of water to rehydrate????? Explain Please?????...

She also told you that NSW parks took pictures and said they were all in good health...lol, Parks and wildlife don't even know what a Bearded Dragon is, got a Darwin mixed up with a Jungle, had to ask us what pythons each one of them were and had never heard of OPMV??? lol

But like Kimberlyann mentioned... the lies you were told is not the whole point, the fact that they are our animals and it was proven legally they are ours and amazingly enough they are now in our care (funny that)! So Gecko, you explain to us and to the members on APS as to why it took over 6 weeks to get them back, the legal threats made to get them back, the lengths we went to on here in writing this whole thing to help others be aware of this situation we got caught up in (which YOU haven't obviously taken heed too), the newspapers contacted, the NSW Ombudsman complaint that is still in progress, the stress it had caused us in getting them back, and not to mention the AVO that was placed on us to keep us from getting back what was rightfully ours... you tell us why she just didn't hand them over to us in the first place when we asked nicely, but instead told us to get F'd and that we would never see them again????????????? Please Explain Gecko?????

Perhaps you need to re-think your other side of the story and not be so gullible!!!

I'll end it here, cause don't get me started.... your jump the gun and gullible comments have really peeved us both off!


P.S. Sorry mods if I stepped over the mark, but the comments above are nothing short of disgusting and disrespectful, especially after everything that has happened!




Gecko :) said:


> No its not really the point,. I was just making a few points,.without relaying the whole conversation we had,.
> 
> Apparently shes the one that actually called National Parks to ask them what to do & what was the procedure as the licenced owner no longer lives at the location the animals are being kept & that she didnt even have a licence & they told her under no circumstances was she to release the snakes to anyone until she has been told too otherwise she would be charged?
> So she says she was just following orders that were given to her..
> Like I said , I dont know the story & dont really want to be caught up in all of this,.im just saying there are 2 sides & I have somewhat changed my attitude slightly to the whole situation.


----------



## jewelz (Nov 8, 2011)

gecko,

I know this person (unfortunately) better than anyone on here and have had to listen to her lies and manipulative stories for 2 many years now! Please don't judge us on what she has said. 
Did she advise that the RSPCA were present when the animals were seized and she did not contact parks and wildlife at all, though she did contact a member on here to ask if they would help her!!!!!!!! DECC new nothing of this when I first contacted them and even the police can verify that!!!!! Her last words were that we would not get our animals back , I have the messages that state this!!!! 
Thanks for your support gecko!


----------



## gavman (Nov 8, 2011)

View attachment 225405


Wayne and Leanne - sometimes words are just not enough - stay strong


----------



## Jeannine (Nov 8, 2011)

*any updates? photos? how are they all going*


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks gavman, too true and to think we tried helping Gecko in getting her GTP back (which was also under-weight) 

Spiky has a fuller looking tummy now and is looking really good. Two out of the 4 pythons are eating and starting to put some weight back on, but the other two unfortunately refuse to eat, probably because they have been without food for so long and the stress of everything that has happened... but will keep trying different methods to get them eating again.

Now that 3 of them out of 5 are looking a little more photogenic, I will try and get some pics next week


----------



## Gecko :) (Nov 8, 2011)

I am sorry ,. I didnt meant to offend you both,. that was not my intention.
Wayne, no she didnt fail to mention the AVO,. she obviously had a different story on why she put it in place.

Perhaps I have been gullible but there is no denying there is always 2 sides to the story.

Sorry if I upset you both I will keep my trap shut & I should have contacted you directly.


----------



## Kimberlyann (Nov 8, 2011)

Gecko :) said:


> Apparently shes the one that actually called National Parks to ask them what to do & what was the procedure as the licenced owner no longer lives at the location the animals are being kept & that she didnt even have a licence & they told her under no circumstances was she to release the snakes to anyone until she has been told too otherwise she would be charged?
> So she says she was just following orders that were given to her..



I really dont think Wayne and his wife would have got straight to the DECC/National Parks or Police, they would have asked to get them back and she refused. I strongly doubt that she had rung them to ask what to do when the license holder had moved out before they had asked for the snakes back (wayne correct me if im wrong)that's if she had really rung them.
There is no excuse for what has been done and i really dont believe that you are turning to see another side when one of your own reptiles have been put thru all of this!


----------



## Gecko :) (Nov 8, 2011)

look,. I dont want to dig my hole deeper & deeper,.
The 'story' she relayed to me was obviously quite believable for me to have swayed my thinking on the whole matter considering (as Wayne has stated) one of my Green trees was tied up in the whole saga.


----------



## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 9, 2011)

Like I said... she is very good at what she does!

But either way, we got our animals back and that's all we wanted right from the beginning and it should never of gotten to this stage. You can come up with all the believable excuses you like, but someone that does what he/she has done not only to us, but too all the innocent animals he/she had in such terrible living conditons is nothing but the lowest of scum in my opinion!


----------



## FAY (Nov 9, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> Like I said... she is very good at what she does!]
> Hmmm there are a lot of people out there like that....they have a lot fooled...they have the gift of the gab...


----------

