# Tribal Carpets



## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

Someone I know hatched these out this year. These very weird carpets are incredibly unique.
The whole clutch turned out like this, so it's most likely a new genetic trait.

These are in Australia. And thats all the info I can put out... speculate away


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## snakes123 (Dec 15, 2011)

Wow they are awsome. Do you know if the guy will be selling them, or hold on to them?


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

snakes123 said:


> Wow they are awsome. Do you know if the guy will be selling them, or hold on to them?



All (20+ clutch) will be held back to prove the genetic mutation. Thats what I was told.


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## Beard (Dec 15, 2011)

Amazing


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## Kurto (Dec 15, 2011)

hhhmmmmm


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## snakebag (Dec 15, 2011)

Very nice. I wonder how they will colour up.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 15, 2011)

oh wow. they are amazing.


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## snakes123 (Dec 15, 2011)

ahhk. Do you think you could get any more pics if possible?


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## saximus (Dec 15, 2011)

I reckon I know who it would be. No point speculating if you're not gonna give the answer though.
Always gotta be careful when D3 posts threads about "weird" morphs


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## Scleropages (Dec 15, 2011)

*Gives up breeding snakes and walks away*

Verry awesome , wonder how long until someone calls them a Jag...


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## longqi (Dec 15, 2011)

Do you know if they are free of Jag genes?

If there is no Jag in these they will blow the industry wide open


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

saximus said:


> I reckon I know who it would be. No point speculating if you're not gonna give the answer though.
> Always gotta be careful when D3 posts threads about "weird" morphs



These aren't shopped.... If the person wants to come out then they can


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## ShaunMorelia (Dec 15, 2011)

Ok I'll speculate.

To me they look like they are jags. Ones that have been bred to a striped animal and their offspring has now been bred back to one of the parents to re-inforce the striping.

Anyways, until they "come into the open about them" thats all we can do, speculate.


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## RSPcrazy (Dec 15, 2011)

Any pics of what the parents look like?


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## zulu (Dec 15, 2011)

Look good to me,interesting to see what junglefreak thinks,hes knowledgeable on these things generally.


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

The_S_Word said:


> Ok I'll speculate.
> 
> To me they look like they are jags. Ones that have been bred to a striped animal and their offspring has now been bred back to one of the parents to re-inforce the striping.


This was a random occurrence. I'm not allowed to say much but it is more then just line breeding.
I will have more pics when they shed. 

Enjoy!


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## Scleropages (Dec 15, 2011)

Jags


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## Jay84 (Dec 15, 2011)

Very nice. 

They look like really reduced pattern JAGs??


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## leamos (Dec 15, 2011)

Nice looking snakes great to see some different looking morphs being produced in recent years, finally catching up to the yanks


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 15, 2011)

thanks for sharing


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

The Americans do NOT lead the way with morelia morphs, anyone would think the only country outside of Australia was the US LOL. 

They do look good, definitely looks like some sort of extreme Jag. No one has mentioned incubation yet 



leamos said:


> Nice looking snakes great to see some different looking morphs being produced in recent years, finally catching up to the yanks


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## Kurto (Dec 15, 2011)

The_S_Word said:


> Ok I'll speculate.
> 
> To me they look like they are jags. Ones that have been bred to a striped animal and their offspring has now been bred back to one of the parents to re-inforce the striping.
> 
> Anyways, until they "come into the open about them" thats all we can do, speculate.




ditto..


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## darwin_freak (Dec 15, 2011)

do they have any neuro problems?


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

none


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## darwin_freak (Dec 15, 2011)

any more photos?


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

A bit early to know that I would have thought if they are this years hatchlings. 



darwin_freak said:


> do they have any neuro problems?


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## Morphed (Dec 15, 2011)

Interesting looking snakes. Would love to try a cross with paradoxs in a few years


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## longqi (Dec 15, 2011)

Arent paradoxs Jags?

If they are why try to destroy a new line??

If not my bad


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## -Katana- (Dec 15, 2011)

Looking at the shape of the head my very first impression is Jungle...I'm sincerely hoping they're absolutely cracking, pure bred reduced pattern jungles, but I'm a bit of an optimist at times.


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## vitticep (Dec 15, 2011)

Call them RPM's :lol:


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

The only paradox morelia I know of are albino Darwins. 



longqi said:


> Arent paradoxs Jags?
> 
> If they are why try to destroy a new line??
> 
> If not my bad


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## Morphed (Dec 15, 2011)

boa said:


> The only paradox morelia I know of are albino Darwins.



yep, mine are darwin paradoxs, not sure of any others. But these new snakes are real scene changers.


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

If you look at the head pattern and the general body pattern they certainly look like some of the very reduced pattern Jags overseas such as this Irain Jaya Jag. The IJ Jag seem to be the most pattern reduced.


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

More info for the speculators.

If this was indeed a jag breeding, then it wouldn't some of the babies from a 20 clutch be normals? All of them turned out like this.
Incubation was between 30-31.5 and were incubated with other clutched which turned out normal.

The parents were also unrelated. Over the coming years they will be tested on their genetics.

More pics will be posted as they develop.


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

Well I guess that would depend what you refer to as normal, without knowing the genetics of the parents it is hard to say. If there are genetic stripes in the mix then 'normals' could well be striped and reduced. 



D3pro said:


> More info for the speculators.
> 
> If this was indeed a jag breeding, then it wouldn't some of the babies from a 20 clutch be normals? All of them turned out like this.
> Incubation was between 30-31.5 and were incubated with other clutched which turned out normal.
> ...


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## ShaunMorelia (Dec 15, 2011)

Did 20 of the _total_ clutchof 40 happen to not hatch? lol
Call me a skeptic but I would say reduced patterned jags.

If they are in deed a whole clutch like this, then to me its something non genetic. if a mutation was to pop up from completely normal animals that are unrelated, there would only be a couple at most pop up in the clutch, not the whole clutch.

Anyways thats just my thoughts, so I guess until somone gets on here and shows the whole clutch together and posts more info on the background of the parents etc, I will remain a skeptic.

But thats just me.


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

boa said:


> Well I guess that would depend what you refer to as normal, without knowing the genetics of the parents it is hard to say. If there are genetic stripes in the mix then 'normals' could well be striped and reduced.



The whole clutch turned out like the pics.... nothing normal about them lol


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## dee4 (Dec 15, 2011)

I think you missed Boa's point. He's saying the parents may have had the genetics in the background, not directly them. Throw backs for a lack of term!!


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## Peter-Birch (Dec 15, 2011)

Congrats to the breeder what ever it may be and they look pretty cool!


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## ShaunMorelia (Dec 15, 2011)

Don't get me wrong though, the animals shown look awesome.


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## Red-Ink (Dec 15, 2011)

Are they a _Morelia _mix D3? Nice looking critters by the way....


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## Basssman (Dec 15, 2011)

Reminds me of the ghost darwins nick and rexy bred years ago


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## Perko (Dec 15, 2011)

There insane, has post #3051 Jungle thread have anything to do with it?


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## Red-Ink (Dec 15, 2011)

CraigP said:


> There insane, has post #3051 Jungle thread have anything to do with it?



Pretty good detective work there Craig... would'nt be suprised if it did.


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## krefft (Dec 15, 2011)

If this is legit and not Jags it's the most exciting development for carpets we've had in Australia. 
Time will tell, but I'm going to close my eyes and wish really really hard that they are what you say they are. Congrats to the lucky guy that produced them.


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

CraigP said:


> There insane, has post #3051 Jungle thread have anything to do with it?



it's not roger. sorry


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## orientalis (Dec 15, 2011)

longqi said:


> Arent paradoxs Jags?
> 
> If they are why try to destroy a new line??
> 
> If not my bad


NO, Paradox are pure darwin carpet's, albino darwins which carry black, grey and brown pigment on them. Very rare and so far from 3 years and 7 clutches of my own results, they are being produced in the same manner as a multi combinational gene (9 3 3 1), so around 64 per 1000 produced.


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## Perko (Dec 15, 2011)

Stuffs my theory! I should read more carefully instead of drooling over the pics!



D3pro said:


> The parents were also unrelated.


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## Khagan (Dec 15, 2011)

There is a real easy way to tell if they are jag or not, just breed 2 of them together and you'll find out.


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

More images. They are still hatching, but you can start to see the main characteristic of these animals. I'm pretty exited lol


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

One of those in 4th pic looks bloated. ???


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> One of those in 4th pic looks bloated. ???



I noticed that too. is that a good/bad/inconsequential thing?


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> One of those in 4th pic looks bloated. ???



Fully absorbed yolk sacks... like a big feed


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## rockett85 (Dec 15, 2011)

well i am blown away congrats to the lucky owner!!!


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

The darkest of the clutch


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

the attachment is invisible.


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> the attachment is invisible.



I think it's fixed now? sorry about that


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## MathewB (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm sorry but what are the parent animals? 

Have pics of the parents?


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

Exactly, thank you. It is impossible to know what is 'normal' when the genetics of both parents are unknown. 



dee4 said:


> I think you missed Boa's point. He's saying the parents may have had the genetics in the background, not directly them. Throw backs for a lack of term!!


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

darwin_freak said:


> maybe its another line of jags? i mean if simone can breed them out of the blue why cant someone else?


 "out of the blue" ? :lol::lol::lol: some people would think differently. :shock:


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## Scleropages (Dec 15, 2011)

Ok , some of them look awesome , Jags or not.


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## ad (Dec 15, 2011)

This is hilarious, and fully expected and predicted I might add.
We have such an amazing depth of Morelia, it was only a matter of time that we produced something better than Jags.
No neuro issues, 100% clutches and the possibility of a superform.
At this moment, just quickly reflect on how ugly this Jag importation and mass rush to breed anything with is, we didnt need it and what a mess it has created - forever. Who would want a Jag now??? 
These animals with 100% clutches will be available really soon 
Good luck to the breeder!! Go the Aussies, the yanks will cry over this one. lol

Of course, we could all be taken for a ride still :lol:


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

Whatever they are, they are ugly as


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

darwin_freak said:


> pathetic comment deleted



Thats a lovely troll comment you made there. .

The owner doesn't want to be put in the lime light for these animals, and the parents will not be posted because they can be tracked to the owner.
Simple. It's hard because everyone has a lot of great questions, but I can't say more then owner wants me too.
The project is only at it's start, so more clear results will be shown in the coming years.

I personally look forward to these proving out genetically. (Cause I already have my foot in the door lol)

Cheers


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

D3pro said:


> The project is only at it's start, so more clear results will be shown in the coming years.



I can see a bright future in coming years; Oenpelli pythons entering the hobby and now this.


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## Jeffa (Dec 15, 2011)

D3pro, are you saying that these animals to the best of your knowledge have no jag in them at all? 
If this is the case then congrats to your friend and yourself and very exciting times ahead people.
If they have jag, freeze them.


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## darwin_freak (Dec 15, 2011)

whats the difference with breed these to everything or jags to everything?


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

darwin_freak said:


> whats the difference with breed these to everything or jags to everything?



The twitch.


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## ad (Dec 15, 2011)

Darwin_Freak,

EVERY Jag has a neuro issue, youtube it.
Only 50% of the clutch are jags, so the worthless other half is usually frozen off
When jags breed to jags the offspring have a fatal outcome.


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## PimmsPythons (Dec 15, 2011)

nice!! so D3po at least tell us what the subspecies of the parents are.
cheers
simon


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

Similar in lots of ways to the Ghost Darwins to look at.


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## Perko (Dec 15, 2011)

I will have another crack at it, related to these?http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/odd-jungles-154743/


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

D3pro, unless you and the owner are prepared to state categorically that there is no jag gene in these, it can fly into your face. Think about it. You fired up the cooking pot .....


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## GSXR_Boy (Dec 15, 2011)

CraigP said:


> I will have another crack at it, related to these?http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/odd-jungles-154743/



This thread sprung to mind when i first saw the animals in this thread.


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## D3pro (Dec 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> D3pro, unless you and the owner are prepared to state categorically that there is no jag gene in these, it can fly into your face. Think about it. You fired up the cooking pot .....



Completely different. IF this morph proves genetic... Were all jumping 100 miles ahead. So far no Neuro or apparent genetic defaults, time will tell.

Slimebo, it's a Mix of morelia spilota. There is a stronger jungle influence I think, so they should go yellow.



CraigP said:


> I will have another crack at it, related to these?http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/odd-jungles-154743/



No sorry


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## MrSpike (Dec 15, 2011)

Those snakes are amazing. Good luck to whoever produced them, I really do hope they prove out for him.

Please keep us posted with post shed pics if you can mate.

Man do I hope these are co dom.. the possiblities for a super form are... woah!


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 15, 2011)

I would actually give this guy the benefit of the doubt. I mean if they really are this awesome, without neuro issues ( aka jags) then HALILOUYA its about time.....


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Completely different.



Completely different is not the answer. Surely, the history of the parents is documented somewhere, is there a jag gene or not? If not, can it be guaranteed? 
Sorry for coming down hard on you but you have opened up a can of worms that can make jag breeders shiver.


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## Tassie97 (Dec 15, 2011)

so is this the "Tribal" line? is that what it will be known as? they look sweet  is the owner is on this site???


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## Red-Ink (Dec 15, 2011)

Tassie97 said:


> so is this the "Tribal" line? is that what it will be known as? they look sweet  is the owner is on this site???



Tribal line sounds great but only if they don't do a tribal dance when stressed.... only time will tell i suppose.


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## melissagalea2 (Dec 15, 2011)

am i the only one who thinks these are bloody ugly. 
this sort of things happening is the whole reason i got out of the hobby....
i recently got back into it. but there is only a selected couple of people i buy from, because they pride themselves on 100% aussie, healthy, no neuro animals. not this half breed, neuro problem crap that is popping up. 
pretty sad to think what our hobby has turned into. wish it would go back 10 years. everyone was happy with the aussie snakes. 
not all this jag/rpm rubbish thats showing its head. 
well thats my rant. 
oh, and if they enjoy breeding snakes with mental problems so be it......................
at the end of the day, this is just MY personal opionion.


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## AndrewHenderson (Dec 15, 2011)

If you took out any monetary value and someone offered me one of those over one with contrasting patterns and colours i'd take the latter. Everyone has different tastes but I think most times the monetary part seems to cloud judgement. I think tribal line is the wrong name, in no way does any of the patterning look tribal!


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

melissagalea2 said:


> am i the only one who thinks these are bloody ugly.
> this sort of things happening is the whole reason i got out of the hobby....
> i recently got back into it. but there is only a selected couple of people i buy from, because they pride themselves on 100% aussie, healthy, no neuro animals. not this half breed, neuro problem crap that is popping up.
> pretty sad to think what our hobby has turned into. wish it would go back 10 years. everyone was happy with the aussie snakes.
> ...


#68...


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## Red-Ink (Dec 15, 2011)

I think their interesting looking critters....


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

Their are 2 reasons for keeping reptiles, and 1 is because you love reptiles....


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## Wally (Dec 15, 2011)

Antaresia are looking better by the day.


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## Herpaderpa (Dec 15, 2011)

Grats to the breeder/s 

I will love to watch how these turn out, should be interesting. I've never been a fan of 'tigers' and stripes and things... they always look plain and boring to me. Though my favourite snake is a brisbane coastal LOL most would consider that boring.

I dont think these look too bad though... very keen to see how they go.  There is a lot of variation in those bubs with colour and patterns... very nice


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## Jay84 (Dec 15, 2011)

ad said:


> We have such an amazing depth of Morelia, it was only a matter of time that we produced something better than Jags.
> No neuro issues, 100% clutches and the possibility of a superform.
> At this moment, just quickly reflect on how ugly this Jag importation and mass rush to breed anything with is, we didnt need it and what a mess it has created - forever. Who would want a Jag now???
> These animals with 100% clutches will be available really soon
> ...



So as stated below, their background is muddied as they are a mix of spilota. So really, no better than JAGS?



D3pro said:


> Completely different. IF this morph proves genetic... Were all jumping 100 miles ahead. So far no Neuro or apparent genetic defaults, time will tell.
> 
> Slimebo, it's a Mix of morelia spilota. There is a stronger jungle influence I think, so they should go yellow.
> 
> ...


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## ingie (Dec 15, 2011)

Jungle x Darwin?


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 15, 2011)

cant wait for the next pictures!!!!!!


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## ad (Dec 15, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> So as stated below, their background is muddied as they are a mix of spilota. So really, no better than JAGS?



Re-read post #75.
Everybody has a right to do what they want, cant change that. I like my animals


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## Jay84 (Dec 15, 2011)

So you are not so much of a fan now you know they are a spilota mix??


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## snakes73 (Dec 15, 2011)

boa said:


> The Americans do NOT lead the way with morelia morphs, anyone would think the only country outside of Australia was the US LOL.
> 
> They do look good, definitely looks like some sort of extreme Jag. No one has mentioned incubation yet



I have heard it is the Germans who lead the way as that is generally where your stuff first appears before being perfected and then onward shipped to the States of America.


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## Inkage (Dec 15, 2011)

Hmm...


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 15, 2011)

Does anyone actually have a bloody clue why they are pro-pure? For the life of me I cannot see what the world ending problem is. For the love of Gawd, please enlighten us! The topic gives some of you people a frickin brain hemorrhage! I have yet to hear one sound, logical justification for keeping these animals "pure". Seriously, share with the group without sounding like a complete douche if you can. Is it conservation? Sorry, your pet snakes have exactly zero conservation value. Is it that you prefer "wild-type" animals? Get off yer arses and go look at them the way nature intended. These are captive bred animals destined for the pet trade, whether you like or not. All the beeyotching in the world is not going to change that fact. Many of you are arguing about the issue of legality, etc... Hate to break it to you but the VAST majority of "pure" lines all came from one source... the bush, and not necessarily with permits. Many of these purists know damn well their animals came from or are direct decendants of illegally poached animals. Do yourselves a favour and get off the soapbox before you trip over your inflated egos and crack your little noggins.

As far as this line goes, good on the breeder, the designer pet pythons he/she's created are blowing people's minds and that's a good thing! By adding morphs to the face of the reptile hobby, we are far more likely to draw fresh blood into the hobby, not to mention generate more POSITIVE awareness of reptiles and snakes in general.


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## snakes73 (Dec 15, 2011)

These do look very nice. They look very similar to Marc Mense crazy jag that he bred a few years back.


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## Jeffa (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Does anyone actually have a bloody clue why they are pro-pure? For the life of me I cannot see what the world ending problem is. For the love of Gawd, please enlighten us! The topic gives some of you people a frickin brain hemorrhage! I have yet to hear one sound, logical justification for keeping these animals "pure". Seriously, share with the group without sounding like a complete douche if you can. Is it conservation? Sorry, your pet snakes have exactly zero conservation value. Is it that you prefer "wild-type" animals? Get off yer arses and go look at them the way nature intended. These are captive bred animals destined for the pet trade, whether you like or not. All the beeyotching in the world is not going to change that fact. Many of you are arguing about the issue of legality, etc... Hate to break it to you but the VAST majority of "pure" lines all came from one source... the bush, and not necessarily with permits.
> 
> As far as this line goes, good on the breeder, the designer pet pythons he/she's created are blowing people's minds and that's a good thing! By adding morphs to the face of the reptile hobby, we are far more likely to draw fresh blood into the hobby, not to mention generate more POSITIVE awareness of reptiles and snakes in general.



Pure or not pure (whatever). But if it has Jag you can stick where the sun dont shine (last line not directed at you snake whisperer). 
Thats my beef.


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## snakes73 (Dec 15, 2011)




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## Inkage (Dec 15, 2011)

When they breed a purple one i will open my wallet again.


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Does anyone actually have a bloody clue why they are pro-pure? For the life of me I cannot see what the world ending problem is. For the love of Gawd, please enlighten us! The topic gives some of you people a frickin brain hemorrhage! I have yet to hear one sound, logical justification for keeping these animals "pure". Seriously, share with the group without sounding like a complete douche if you can. Is it conservation? Sorry, your pet snakes have exactly zero conservation value. Is it that you prefer "wild-type" animals? Get off yer arses and go look at them the way nature intended. These are captive bred animals destined for the pet trade, whether you like or not. All the beeyotching in the world is not going to change that fact. Many of you are arguing about the issue of legality, etc... Hate to break it to you but the VAST majority of "pure" lines all came from one source... the bush, and not necessarily with permits.
> 
> As far as this line goes, good on the breeder, the designer pet pythons he/she's created are blowing people's minds and that's a good thing! By adding morphs to the face of the reptile hobby, we are far more likely to draw fresh blood into the hobby, not to mention generate more POSITIVE awareness of reptiles and snakes in general.


HAHA....what a load of old cobblers...the pro pures are the only ones giving arguments, that are based on keeping healthy animals, for pleasure, and not for profit or big noting.....


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## ramzee86 (Dec 15, 2011)

I look at JAGS as a typical blonde with a nice ra*k... Even if they arent too smart, they look friken amazing. So... I will go for them 

And Wow im excited to find out if this new trait is genetic... very very cool!!!


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## darwin_freak (Dec 15, 2011)

people that do have breeding projects want to know what they are getting. i think the main problem is they are put on your license as darwins when it has jungle in it and in three generations time its hard to tell. if you buy a hi yellow darwin that has jungle in it, it muddies out and its a big waste of effort when this happens. DEC need to change the record books


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## saximus (Dec 15, 2011)

Can we maybe not turn this into an argument that gets the thread closed? I'd love to see any new photos D3 puts up and I'll be interested in updates but all this bickering is getting people nowhere


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

saximus said:


> Can we maybe not turn this into an argument that gets the thread closed? I'd love to see any new photos D3 puts up and I'll be interested in updates but all this bickering is getting people nowhere


Cant make them things look any better....


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## saximus (Dec 15, 2011)

Haha maybe not to you Cockney but some people like them and nobody is forcing you to buy one. 
These poor guys have only just hatched. What's it gonna be like when they hit the market??


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 15, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> HAHA....what a load of old cobblers...the pro pures are the only ones giving arguments, that are based on keeping healthy animals, for pleasure, and not for profit or big noting.....



Not for profit? You cannot be serious! Sorry Ad, gotta use your for sale threads as examples:

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/sale-snakes-43/boyds-dragons-sale-64113/
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/sale-snakes-43/julatten-b-ws-96748/

That takes care of that. On to big noting. Answered with "Tall Poppy Syndrome". Whoever owns these animals won't even reveal themselves, pretty hard to big note yourself when no-one has any idea who you are. Finally, healthy animals. Hybrid vigour. While it technically doesn't apply here, it is close enough to cover the point. As far as jags and neuro goes, I have one, he's a bit unco, but based on my FIRST HAND experience with him and animals all of my life, he certainly doesn't display any of the traits attributed to animals in physical distress. Yes, ALL animals display certain behaviours when in phyisical pain or discomfort, not the least of which being a hostile aversion to human interaction. Hey, who am I to go and use first hand experience as an example, should have said "Thag hate jags...grrr!"


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## edstar (Dec 15, 2011)

congrats to the breeder. hope all goes well with em. keep the pics coming


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## Jeffa (Dec 15, 2011)

saximus said:


> Haha maybe not to you Cockney but some people like them and nobody is forcing you to buy one.
> These poor guys have only just hatched. What's it gonna be like when they hit the market??


Chaos, when I want to buy another snake in a few years time I do not want any gene that has the potential to affect the wellbeing of the snake.


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Not for profit? You cannot be serious! Sorry Ad, gotta use your for sale threads as examples:
> 
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/sale-snakes-43/boyds-dragons-sale-64113/
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/sale-snakes-43/julatten-b-ws-96748/
> ...


Same old cobblers trotted out to justify same old greed


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## Squinty (Dec 15, 2011)

I love lamp


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## Retic (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake Whisperer, #104, post of the year.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 15, 2011)

boa said:


> Snake Whisperer, #104, post of the year.



Ash, I wait with bated breath for the requested logical, valid arguments, but it would appear none are forthcoming at this point. I must teach myself to fling emotion filled excrement I guess.


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Ash, I wait with bated breath for the requested logical, valid arguments, but it would appear none are forthcoming at this point. I must teach myself to fling emotion filled excrement I guess.


Again refer to post# 104 ...................everything pro has been said, you just refuse to hear it ...nite nite


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## whyme (Dec 15, 2011)

I really like these and I I'd have one. Do people not want to see the hobby progress? Hard to make assumptions when the parent lineage has'nt even been established. D3Pro, good on ya for posting the pics, breaks the monotoney! And good luck to the breeder.


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## Ersatz (Dec 15, 2011)

why must everyone argue. it's christmas time. peace and goodwill to all men (and women)


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 15, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Again refer to post# 104 ...................everything pro has been said, you just refuse to hear it ...nite nite



It is possible that I am just incapable of "hearing it". When I re-read your response, all I saw was the herp world equivalent of "If you like jags, then Al-quaeda wins". It may be a regional thing, I don't know what an "old cobbler" is, perhaps that is where the flesh of your argument lies? If so, that's why I don't get it. If you could add some fact, or first hand experience to the debate, I may then be able to "hear it".

Sorry to flood the forums mods, I smell an infraction coming my way.


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## Jay84 (Dec 15, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> HAHA....what a load of old cobblers...the pro pures are the only ones giving arguments, that are based on keeping healthy animals, for pleasure, and not for profit or big noting.....



So are you saying every JAG owner is just in it for the money and they do not enjoy or experience pleasure in keeping these animals? That they are in it for only profit?

I do not own JAGs for the record


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## GSXR_Boy (Dec 15, 2011)

Are these related to your Jungle's you put up a while ago Jay?
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/unusual-jungle-pics-151930/

* takes another stab in the dark*


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## AndrewHenderson (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> It is possible that I am just incapable of "hearing it". When I re-read your response, all I saw was the herp world equivalent of "If you like jags, then Al-quaeda wins". It may be a regional thing, I don't know what a "horse cobbler" is, perhaps that is where the flesh of your argument lies? If so, that's why I don't get it. If you could add some fact, or first hand experience to the debate, I may then be able to "hear it".
> 
> Sorry to flood the forums mods, I smell an infraction coming my way.




I think the main issue I can see is down the road when some poor sap shells out big bucks for what they think it a pure line of reptile with no mix breeding in it and they get a mongrel mix. I think in 10-15 years the market will change and people will be looking for animals with pure lineage. Each to their own if they want to hybridise and cross breed.... there's always going to be Lovers and haters on subjects, it's what makes people human.


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## Leardy (Dec 15, 2011)

squinty are u just saying you love lamp or do you really love the lamp


Squinty said:


> I love lamp


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 15, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> I look at JAGS as a typical blonde with a nice ra*k... Even if they arent too smart, they look friken amazing. So... I will go for them
> 
> And Wow im excited to find out if this new trait is genetic... very very cool!!!



If you want to use the jag attraction as an analogy to good looking woman with nice racks you might want to add that when you bend her over her head starts twitching. As a self confessed purist using the same analogy, I appreciate a good looking Thai chick, dream about some of the beautiful Russian glamour’s, and would appreciate the convenient height of a pygmy woman. Woman with neurological issues and Hedland Melanistic specimens, I give a wide berth.


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## AndrewHenderson (Dec 15, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> If you want to use the jag attraction as an analogy to good looking woman with nice racks you might want to add that when you bend her over her head starts twitching. As a self confessed purist using the same analogy, I appreciate a good looking Thai chick, dream about some of the beautiful Russian glamour’s, and would appreciate the convenient height of a pygmy woman. Woman with neurological issues and Hedland Melanistic specimens, I give a wide berth.



Haha, GOLD!


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## zeke (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't like the look of them at all I'd rather stick to the more standard looking snakes as I do not like and would (probly never get a jag or crossbreed snake at all. But that's my opinion as I am interested in the more classic look of my favorite reps


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## Herpaderpa (Dec 15, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> If you want to use the jag attraction as an analogy to good looking woman with nice racks you might want to add that when you bend her over her head starts twitching. As a self confessed purist using the same analogy, I appreciate a good looking Thai chick, dream about some of the beautiful Russian glamour’s, and would appreciate the convenient height of a pygmy woman. Woman with neurological issues and Hedland Melanistic specimens, I give a wide berth.



Exactly my thoughts ROFL I just wasn't able to put it so eloquently


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## Darlyn (Dec 15, 2011)

Well d3p you can certainly pull a crowd!
Were these bred in the NT?

Can't tell you why I'm asking that : )


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## Waterrat (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Hate to break it to you but the VAST majority of "pure" lines all came from one source... the bush, and not necessarily with permits. Many of these purists know damn well their animals came from or are direct decendants of illegally poached animals. Do yourselves a favour and get off the soapbox before you trip over your inflated egos and crack your little noggins.



Please, do yourself the same favour. Your soap box is getting taller and taller.
Where did all captive reptiles originated from? Including yours? What's the difference between legal and "_not necessarily with permits_"? They all came from wild populations and usually, if always without any harm to the wild population.


Oh, where are you 3Dpro? The silence is deafening. Watch those worms crawling out of the can.


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## -Katana- (Dec 15, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> It is possible that I am just incapable of "hearing it". When I re-read your response, all I saw was the herp world equivalent of "If you like jags, then Al-quaeda wins". It may be a regional thing, I don't know what an "old cobbler" is, perhaps that is where the flesh of your argument lies? If so, that's why I don't get it. If you could add some fact, or first hand experience to the debate, I may then be able to "hear it".
> 
> Sorry to flood the forums mods, I smell an infraction coming my way.



So how does this stack up with a position of cross breeding....say...vens. where the resultant off-spring has an unkown toxicology. If some one gets tagged by someones little Vens. science experiment the ramifications will be wider reaching than half a clutch with the head boobles.
How the **** does a ER unit treat such a bite?
Treat with on anti-ven?
Both?
Will both be far too toxic for the human system to bear?
Will they negate themselves?

Why for the love of god damned pete would ANYONE cross vens in this country when we have 10 of the top 20 MOST vens. snakes in the god damned world and have THE best record for survival rate from bites from those snakes?

Cross breeds would turn snake bite toxicology in this country on it's head.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 15, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> So how does this stack up with a position of cross breeding....say...vens. where the resultant off-spring has an unkown toxicology. If some one gets tagged by someones little Vens. science experiment the ramifications will be wider reaching than half a clutch with the head boobles.
> How the **** does a ER unit treat such a bite?
> Treat with on anti-ven?
> Both?
> ...



Who is cross breeding vens? I thought we were talking about Morelia lol


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## -Katana- (Dec 15, 2011)

Geckoman said:


> Who is cross breeding vens? I thought we were talking about Morelia lol



Well people are going up in arms about cross breed pythons and their effects.
It pays to throw out a little perspective as to what might happen when bright sparks decide to rub two different vens. together.
As I said, the consequences may be more than a few booble headed pythons but such crosses of vens.may actually mean loss of human life because of an unknown and therefore an untreatable envenomation.


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## jinjajoe (Dec 16, 2011)

All of this opinion....... I personally think & have said before that any of us gave up the right to opinion once we put animals in a box........ which is most if not all of us....... enjoy the growth of the hobby or be quiet. This thread is purely indicative of some interesting animals...... nothing more.


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## Renenet (Dec 16, 2011)

At this early stage they look like iced donuts that went wrong. If they colour up like albino darwins do, I might find them more attractive. Still, I don't think they'll be for me. I've yet to see a morph available in Australia that gets me excited. I'm afraid I'm attracted to the natural-looking snakes.

Nonetheless, if they're Jag/neuro free, all good luck to your friend, D3pro. If it is genetic, I'll be keen to see how the project develops over the years.


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## Darlyn (Dec 16, 2011)

jinjajoe said:


> All of this opinion....... I personally think & have said before that any of us gave up the right to opinion once we put animals in a box.........



Interesting opinion. Totally disagree, but then in your opinion your'e not entitled to one.


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## jinjajoe (Dec 16, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Interesting opinion. Totally disagree, but then in your opinion your'e not entitled to one.



spot on smartie....


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 16, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Please, do yourself the same favour. Your soap box is getting taller and taller.
> Where did all captive reptiles originated from? Including yours? What's the difference between legal and "_not necessarily with permits_"? They all came from wild populations and usually, if always without any harm to the wild population.
> 
> 
> Oh, where are you 3Dpro? The silence is deafening. Watch those worms crawling out of the can.



Michael, you are the LAST person that should EVER preach about soapboxes, that's rich! Talk about the pot and the friggin kettle! :lol::lol::lol: The funniest part is you've argued my point exactly, thank you and well done. As it was I who pointed out where the bulk of captive reptiles in this country have come from, it should be flagrantly obvious that I am completely indifferent to the origins of the "pure" animals in my collection. This is not advocating poaching, merely a clear indication that hypocrisy is not something I cannot be bothered with. They were available legally, so I purchased them (for big bucks, from reputable, purist breeders!). 

This debate is tiresome so I will bow out with a quote from...ughhh...myself, from the "Why do so many people have a hatred towards JAGS???" thread:



Snake_Whisperer said:


> IMO, the main reason is that some "snake people" think that by keeping lines pure, that it in some way instills them with nobility, or somehow makes them special. I think the main reason some folks hate them SOOO much, is that their illegally poached (or directly decended from), locality specific animals are no longer the centre of attention.



As Andrew pointed out in post #129, :"down the road when some poor sap shells out big bucks for what they think it a pure line of reptile with no mix breeding in it and they get a mongrel mix." That says it all. Purists are no longer "special", nor are they able to "get the big bucks" from their locality specific animals. God, who bloody cares! Someone argued that jag keepers and non-purists don't argue these points, it's because we don't care! I, and many others feel that there is equal room for purity as well as morph breeding. Bit hard to stand up and make that point when the beligerent loud mouths are flinging faeces everywhere. No-one seems to be complaining about the reduced vigour found in albino darwins, and don't get me started on reproductive inferiority of albino olives! They're pure, I guess that's what matters (for some reason that no-one can seem to explain other than personal preference).

Deep breath.....rant over.


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## Darlyn (Dec 16, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> . No-one seems to be complaining about the reduced vigour found in albino darwins, and don't get me started on reproductive inferiority of albino olives! They're pure, I guess that's what matters (for some reason that no-one can seem to explain other than personal preference).
> 
> Deep breath.....rant over.



Actually I would like to get you started on these claims. Do you have evidence or are you exagerrating to prove a point?


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## MrSpike (Dec 16, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> "If you like jags, then Al-quaeda wins".



F*#&!^g LOL

I haven't seen a quote that sig worthy since.. ever.

At the end of the day, you purists can have fun keeping your poached animals, while us dirty hybridizers can have fun with our smuggled stock. If any of us have any morals at all though, we won't be lying about the heritage of the snakes we are producing.. And why should we? If we have one side of the market that is more than willing to produce and purchase hybrids then we can label and sell them as such, while the other side can do the same.


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

There will always be a market for designer snakes
Thats fair enough although not everyones cup of tea

As far a Jags go everyone knows my thoughts so I wont bother saying them again

But if this line is Jag free and does prove out the breeder is onto a huge winner

This thread shouldnt degenerate into Jag and Anti-Jag
It should be about the huge advances in breeding that are going on as we write


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## snakes73 (Dec 16, 2011)

If this is a new morph and not a gene linked to the jaguars the beauty it brings will come with a beast. One thing is to not jump onto that train too quick with big bucks until it has been proven out and you can always bet if money is involved the faults will be kept under ground. Just look how long it took the breeders in Europe and the US to be honest and come forward about the neuro issues in jags.


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

There is no reason to believe that a beast has to come with beauty
99% of python regius or ball python morphs have no neuro and I have never heard of any neuro problems with retics or burmese morphs

The Neuro problems with Jags didnt seem to appear until long after Jan Engels first bred them
First reports of neuro came about 2 years after Iryan Jayas were introduced into the Jag line by the Germans Dutch and Yanks

Jan has always stated that none of his original Jags ever showed neuro problems and so far I have never found any evidence to doubt this


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## zack13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Does anyone actually have a bloody clue why they are pro-pure? For the life of me I cannot see what the world ending problem is. For the love of Gawd, please enlighten us! The topic gives some of you people a frickin brain hemorrhage! I have yet to hear one sound, logical justification for keeping these animals "pure". Seriously, share with the group without sounding like a complete douche if you can. Is it conservation? Sorry, your pet snakes have exactly zero conservation value. Is it that you prefer "wild-type" animals? Get off yer arses and go look at them the way nature intended. These are captive bred animals destined for the pet trade, whether you like or not. All the beeyotching in the world is not going to change that fact. Many of you are arguing about the issue of legality, etc... Hate to break it to you but the VAST majority of "pure" lines all came from one source... the bush, and not necessarily with permits. Many of these purists know damn well their animals came from or are direct decendants of illegally poached animals. Do yourselves a favour and get off the soapbox before you trip over your inflated egos and crack your little noggins.
> 
> As far as this line goes, good on the breeder, the designer pet pythons he/she's created are blowing people's minds and that's a good thing! By adding morphs to the face of the reptile hobby, we are far more likely to draw fresh blood into the hobby, not to mention generate more POSITIVE awareness of reptiles and snakes in general.



Really, come on. I think there is room for both in the hobby but wow this post is ignorant and closed minded. There is plenty of logic in both arguments just because YOU don't agree with or can't see their logic doesn't make it illogical or wrong. Grow up and get off your horse. How about you share with the group without sounding like a complete douche if you can (I'd say that is a little too late) as to why would shouldn't keep animals pure.


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## snakes73 (Dec 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> There is no reason to believe that a beast has to come with beauty
> 99% of python regius or ball python morphs have no neuro and I have never heard of any neuro problems with retics or burmese morphs
> 
> The Neuro problems with Jags didnt seem to appear until long after Jan Engels first bred them
> ...



How does that explain neuro conditions in pure coastal jaguars? Are you saying that it is a highly virulent virus that came from IJ's and locked onto the jaguar gene in all carpet pythons?

Jan Engels was a fibber. 

Also there are more than 1% of royal python morphs that incorporate the spider gene which is similar to the jaguar gene in its patterning and its neuro side effects.


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## Kurto (Dec 16, 2011)

Hey look... Another quality thread on APS gone to ****! Wow! I would have never guessed!


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## darwin_freak (Dec 16, 2011)

can you say what mix these are? have they been line breed or just popped up?


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## jinjajoe (Dec 16, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Actually I would like to get you started on these claims. Do you have evidence or are you exagerrating to prove a point?



Having worked with all of & bred some of the following Albino animals;

Darwins
Olives
Bearded Dragons
Blue Tongues
Tree Skinks
Oscar Fish

All of them have reduced vigour (not to be confused with reproductive capacity in some cases) in one way shape or form usually multiple when compared to their equivalent wild type animal not displaying Albinism & that is not opinion simply fact.


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 16, 2011)

Just some pics of the parents. Definitely "Tribal Carpet"









Just joking. The snakes look interesting. Should be good to see how they grow.


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## crocodile_dan (Dec 16, 2011)

Jinjajoe: whilst albinism itself does show some fitness reduction, specifically visual acuity and obvious melanin protection from lightwaves. Do you attribute their "reduced vigour" (not physiological inhibitors as above) to albinism present in organisms or to the genetic depression occurring through captive selective breeding?


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok had a quick flick threw the thread . 

No jag gene ?.
No funky incubation ? .

Looks like both of the above were used in this clutch .
The funky incubation would make all the normals from the jag clutch look funky just like thread below…..

Jag plus the funky incubation = these results. IMO 
Last year it was claimed these were natural ? but most died ? 
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/unusual-jungle-pics-151930/

NO MYSTERY AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED ....


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## jinjajoe (Dec 16, 2011)

crocodile_dan said:


> Jinjajoe: whilst albinism itself does show some fitness reduction, specifically visual acuity and obvious melanin protection from lightwaves. Do you attribute their "reduced vigour" (not physiological inhibitors as above) to albinism present in organisms or to the genetic depression occurring through captive selective breeding?



Impossible to answer without a wild type Albino colony to use as a control.


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## vitticep (Dec 16, 2011)

I didnt think it would take long for jag breeders to start discrediting the line :lol:

ewwww, I would hate to be working on jag projects atm lol


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## Red-Ink (Dec 16, 2011)

I understand the secrecy from the breeders point of view.... but this hinting stuff really ain't doing the community any good. Maybe it would have been better with full disclosure if they wanted to release them into the market. If they were'nt ready yet, they probably should have just stayed in the shadows for a while.


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## ssssmithy (Dec 16, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Ok had a quick flick threw the thread .
> 
> No jag gene ?.
> No funky incubation ? .
> ...



My thoughts exactly Rog.


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

As I said right at the beginning Roger I was surprised no one had mentioned incubation. I'm not saying it is the cause but the wacky patterns are very reminiscent of being incubation related. 

I'm NOT a Jag breeder LOL. 



Jungle_Freak said:


> Ok had a quick flick threw the thread .
> 
> No jag gene ?.
> No funky incubation ? .
> ...


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 16, 2011)

Yer Ash, to me its obvious .
Anonymous breeder makes amazing new discovery . lol....


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## saximus (Dec 16, 2011)

I don't think I've ever seen so many "old hats" in one thread before. It's a little overwhelming; I feel like a little kid surrounded by grown ups.

So how come incubation causes weird stuff like this? Do incorrect temps cause "defects" during their development?


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

It's the first thing I thought of to be honest Roger even before assuming they were Jags. We have been told they don't suffer any neuro issues but are still hatching and the entire clutch is the same which kind of discounts any genetic mutation. I am more than happy to be proven wrong, it's not going to have any affect on me so it's largely irrelevant anyway from a personal standpoint but if they prove to be a new genetic line well done to the breeder.


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## ssssmithy (Dec 16, 2011)

boa said:


> It's the first thing I thought of to be honest even before assuming they were Jags. We have been told they don't suffer any neuro issues but are still hatching and the entire clutch is the same which kind of discounts any genetic mutation. I am more than happy to be proven wrong, it's not going to have any affect on me so it's largely irrelevant anyway from a personal standpoint but if they prove to be a new genetic line well done to the breeder.



thats it Ash, if it is so then hats off and it will be a good thing for the hobby. 
but the odds are slim to none. 
pics of parents would be good? i think i read somewhere in the thread they are from "mixed morelia" ? 
also i know jag breeders who don't see neuro issues in there snakes, i think some people assume they all hatch out of the egg throwing cartwheels. 
we know know you don't achieve these results by a simple striped jungle to striped jungle...if we did the likes of roger and Nev and the stock's and more breeders would have produced the likes of these already.


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

Lets face it people generally are pretty sceptical especially in this hobby, I am a glass half full optimist but when given little snippets of information but told we can't really know the whole story just yet we become rightly suspicious. It would be the same if I suddenly came up with a clutch of albino mcdowelli and said they had no Darwin blood in them, people would be sceptical.


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## ssssmithy (Dec 16, 2011)

haha thats it, but albinos popping up in a coastal clutch is believable they are 1 in 10,000 after all 
but snakes that look like massively reduced jags, even more reason to sceptical. lol


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## darwin_freak (Dec 16, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I can see a bright future in coming years; Oenpelli pythons entering the hobby and now this.


 exactly just imagine what the Oenpelli will look like once they start breeding it to everything designer reduce pattern bright yellow het albino Oenpelli I can't wait


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

snakes73 said:


> How does that explain neuro conditions in pure coastal jaguars? Are you saying that it is a highly virulent virus that came from IJ's and locked onto the jaguar gene in all carpet pythons?
> 
> Jan Engels was a fibber.
> 
> Also there are more than 1% of royal python morphs that incorporate the spider gene which is similar to the jaguar gene in its patterning and its neuro side effects.



Jag is not a virus.. its a set of genes or perhaps only one gene... but if anyone can show that there was ever any talk about neuro before the IJs were introduced I would love to know about it

There is no such thing as a 'pure coastal jaguar'
The Jags that were smuggled into Aus doubtless had some IJ in them because IJs were all the rage for producing Jags at that time
Jag is a term used to describe a particular gene set that produces some amazing colours and also contains incurable neurological problems to greater or lesser extent
Every Jag carries these genes or else its NOT a Jag

Jan Engels is a highly respected breeder who fluked something, and most definitely does not seem to deserve the name fibber because experts were trying to prove he lied about this for more than 10 years and couldnt prove he said one word wrong

There are very few spider royals and spider throw offs such as bumblebees with neuro in existence, in comparison to all the other successful neuro free morphs so get your facts straight [they would actually be a tiny fraction of 1%]


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## Jay84 (Dec 16, 2011)

GSXR_Boy said:


> Are these related to your Jungle's you put up a while ago Jay?
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/unusual-jungle-pics-151930/
> 
> * takes another stab in the dark*



Nothing to do with me  I also have their mother so these ones are not from her either.



Jungle_Freak said:


> Jag plus the funky incubation = these results. IMO
> Last year it was claimed these were natural ? but most died ?
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/unusual-jungle-pics-151930/
> 
> NO MYSTERY AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED ....



Yep, most died. I got 2 of them, one with the unusual markings and one with more normal markings. The unusually marked one died 

The strange thing with the ones i got were incubated in the same incubator but 2 different tubs. Both tubs were the same (SIM tubs). One half the clutch hatched fine, no issues at all. The second half of the clutch in the other SIM tub came out with unusual markings and were weak, didn't want to feed and all died


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## solar 17 (Dec 16, 2011)

A thread like this always amuses me for the number of "key board warriors" that come to the surface genetic warlords, but they all seem to have a couple of points in common, not many posts up, they never sign their name to "their statement" a great use of words that confuse a lot of us and so far as l can see not a lot of information to the herp community in general just a spray of words and then "gone" until the next genetics thread and then what a contrast as we get the "l cant think of a name thread" or my snakes got r.i. how did this happen well 33/23c and in an enclosure "big enough" so it can make up its own mind, someone should post the phone numbers of NASA and the CSIRO so some of these people(ON THIS THREAD) get a position that suits their knowledge base and expertise that alone their IQ.
......solar 17 (baden)


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

Years ago, before the Jags turned up here, I bought a pair of unusually marked carpets which were considered 'Jaggish'. Both were very fussy feeders, both had an odd twitch and eventually both went off their food and finally died. 



Jay84 said:


> Yep, most died. I got 2 of them, one with the unusual markings and one with more normal markings. The unusually marked one died
> 
> The strange thing with the ones i got were incubated in the same incubator but 2 different tubs. Both tubs were the same (SIM tubs). One half the clutch hatched fine, no issues at all. The second half of the clutch in the other SIM tub came out with unusual markings and were weak, didn't want to feed and all died


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 16, 2011)

boa said:


> Years ago, before the Jags turned up here, I bought a pair of unusually marked carpets which were considered 'Jaggish'. Both were very fussy feeders, both had an odd twitch and eventually both went off their food and finally died.



Classis symptom's from  variable or unstable incubation temperature . Too high or too low or too much variation in temps creates amazing patterns etc but these patterns are not genetically passed on to their offspring . 
Unless the same method of incubtion temps are used again.....


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## Retic (Dec 16, 2011)

Spot on 



Jungle_Freak said:


> Classis symptom's from  variable or unstable incubation temperature . Too high or too low or too much variation in temps creates amazing patterns etc but these patterns are not genetically passed on to their offspring .
> Unless the same method of incubtion temps are used again.....


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## crocodile_dan (Dec 16, 2011)

I feel Baden's comment is towards myself, I intentionally omit many posts to many threads, where I do post I feel there is an area of interest worth opening up to further discussion if people wish to discuss it (I don't like/want to contribute anymore than I feel is necessary). I try and keep my post count to a minimum of relevant information, and I have no intention for anyone to know who I am at this point in time!
Cheers Daniel


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## The Devil (Dec 16, 2011)

The talk of incubation temp has I guess gotten a bit off topic and I'm going to continue in the vain, apologies to the moderators.

A couple of years ago I hatched some jungles at incubation temps of between 26.5C and 27.5C. I did it just to see if they would hatch at that temp and what would eventuate.

The best looking 1 ( pic attached) ended up with Roger and yes I did tell Roger how she had been incubated. This jungle is now with Barra.

Now other than the crazy head pattern she has very similar body pattern and colouring of her mother..
If I remember correctly I hatched 8 out of 9 eggs and although at first I thought they looked a bit different to the other eggs out of my normal incubator when compared age for age they were all very similar to the others.

It was suggested to me at the time that the patterns and colours are part of their genetic make-up and the chances of changing the genetics via temps would be extremely low. 
I think it was a case of that out of every clutch there seems to be 1 or 2 stunner's and these just happened to be the ones out of the cool cooker.

I'm doing it again this season but this time I'm going WAY down with the temps and well attempt to keep better records.

Now back on topic.

The easiest way to disprove the jag thought would be to post a pic of all 20 in the same tub.
Looking forward to seeing more pics as they shed ect.


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

The Devil said:


> The easiest way to disprove the jag though would be to post a pic of all 20 in the same tub.
> Looking forward to seeing more pics as they shed ect.



That is a very wise and simple thing that would dispel any doubts as to the parentage


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## Waterrat (Dec 16, 2011)

_The easiest way to disprove the jag thought would be to post a pic of all 20 in the same tub.
_



longqi said:


> That is a very wise and simple thing that would dispel any doubts as to the parentage



But it ain't coming. Is it?


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## Herpaderpa (Dec 16, 2011)

Don't really want to increase any debate on the matter but thought I should put out a point regarding purists that those who are emotionally invested seem to commonly miss.

I am not on either side... I see both the value of pure locality lines and the creation of pretty designer pets for the pet trade.

I get the point of the purist and considering they normally charge a fraction of what designer breeders charge... I really don't think they do it for the money.
Though those fanatics who are only interested in money in their designers most likely can't see past their own greed and can not understand the concept of conservation. Not that I have ever heard of many who are that fanatic, but there is the odd one rabidly defending their 'designers'.

A few years ago, a small species of fish which was declared extinct in the wild was discovered in the collection of someone who had been keeping them in large numbers (illegally) for some time. 
Now with the rate at which humans are screwing over their environment, I certainly do see a strong point for the purists to maintain pure locality lines. Who knows when they will be all that exists of their kind, in the wild and captivity?

Having a foot in each side I can see how illogical the debate from the non-purists is. Sorry, but I really do think purists have a point and those 'designer fanatics' against purists don't have a point at all... they just try to aggressively defend their position.

Again... having said all this... I know in QLD the supposed intention for keeping reptiles is for conservation and education purposes. Says so right in the paperwork you fill out to get your license. Read what you like into it, they generally encourage the breeding and keeping of pure animals. I can only assume that other states are the same. Making the designer fanatics argument even more baseless. 

I would keep a pretty looking designer and hope to be breeding some albinos soon... I don't see why designer breeders can't get over the purists stance... seriously, it's illogical to have anything against the purists. I'm glad there are purists trying to preserve localities etc. I would pay as much, if not more, for a lovely looking genuine locality as I would for a lovely looking designer. 

Sorry that this thread got hijacked D3pro...



Waterrat said:


> _The easiest way to disprove the jag thought would be to post a pic of all 20 in the same tub.
> _
> But it ain't coming. Is it?



I don't understand why anyone would make an announcement about a possible new morph and then only give out little bits of info that just end up making people speculate and discard the idea of the morph straight up due to heated debate over possible issues. Its only going to hurt them and the morph more... the fact that some knowledgeable people have put out there that this is likely an incubation issue will probably turn a lot of people away from this immediately. That there wasn't a clear cut answer as to whether jag is behind these snakes as well is unsettling. The idea is beginning to sour


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## Waterrat (Dec 16, 2011)

"Someone I know hatched these out this year. These very weird carpets are incredibly unique.
The whole clutch turned out like this, so it's most likely a new genetic trait.

These are in Australia. And thats all the info I can put out... speculate away "

I can't see where purist vs designers came into it .... but it did, it usually does. The suggestion (above) that it's most likely a new genetic trait is the core of the debate and needs some explaining from the the OP. The simple question is - do they carry the jag gene or not? If the breeder's records are so poor that he/she can't figure out the lineage of the parents, than how can this product hold any integrity? It seems that this "new genetic line" will suffer the same problems purists have with their locality specific animals. Has the time come to start believing in pedigrees or is it already too late?


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## RHCP1 (Dec 16, 2011)

solar 17 said:


> A thread like this always amuses me for the number of "key board warriors" that come to the surface genetic warlords, but they all seem to have a couple of points in common, not many posts up, they never sign their name to "their statement" a great use of words that confuse a lot of us and so far as l can see not a lot of information to the herp community in general just a spray of words and then "gone" until the next genetics thread and then what a contrast as we get the "l cant think of a name thread" or my snakes got r.i. how did this happen well 33/23c and in an enclosure "big enough" so it can make up its own mind, someone should post the phone numbers of NASA and the CSIRO so some of these people(ON THIS THREAD) get a position that suits their knowledge base and expertise that alone their IQ.
> ......solar 17 (baden)



have to agree with solar71 on this. it is too easy to sit at a computer and do little other than criticise other and contribute little to the discussion or hobby.

If as others have suggested these turn out to be jags it will be disappointing and a bit sad that again someone has used the net to ****stir.

I like the suggestion of a single pic of all the babies in a tub. That should end the jag part of the debate.


Could this be a record, 24 hours for this post, 7500 hits and 180 replies...amazing


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## D3pro (Dec 16, 2011)

These are the last images I was sent.
Sadly 5 died. The breeder made a mistake from the excitement and paid the price.
Three more are still in the egg.

On a personal note:

I am not placing any claims on these animals. They are not mine. I am doing a favour from a member on here who doesn't want the attention.
Do not direct your questions at me. Do not send me PM's. Do not call me. (Unless your a mate, then go ahead)

How jags, smuggling and hybrids got into the equation baffles me. The're just some snakes that look nice. 
Enjoy.


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## Waterrat (Dec 16, 2011)

D3pro, how are your burned fingers healing? LOL


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## Kyro (Dec 16, 2011)

They are really strange looking & I don't mean the patterns, I mean the shape of them. They look like they are swollen or something?


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## ryanm (Dec 16, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Sadly 5 died. The breeder made a mistake from the excitement and paid the price.



What caused the 5 to die?


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## Ned_fisch (Dec 16, 2011)

In the photo of the five that died, why is it that parts of the pythons bodies are not touching the object they are placed on? Also the blurred appearance of the pythons? It may just be that it looks that way, or that im on my mobile phone, but to be honest, it makes me feel that the pictures are photo shopped.


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## D3pro (Dec 16, 2011)

Michael you know I'm titanium 



ryanm said:


> What caused the 5 to die?



This was what I was told:

--------
Sometime when he pips the bigger snakes of a clutch it triggers the smaller ones to come out before they are ready.
Those 5 didn't absorb the yolk and so they did not survive.

He also said that to keep the thread as civil as possible. He's happy to share the images to those who are interested but won't if there is all this hostility.
--------

Ned-fish... no.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 16, 2011)

Ned_fisch said:


> In the photo of the five that died, why is it that parts of the pythons bodies are not touching the object they are placed on? Also the blurred appearance of the pythons? It may just be that it looks that way, or that im on my mobile phone, but to be honest, it makes me feel that the pictures are photo shopped.




i would assume that some sort of rigor had set in by the time the pic was taken?


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## AndrewHenderson (Dec 16, 2011)

Ned_fisch said:


> In the photo of the five that died, why is it that parts of the pythons bodies are not touching the object they are placed on? Also the blurred appearance of the pythons? It may just be that it looks that way, or that im on my mobile phone, but to be honest, it makes me feel that the pictures are photo shopped.


 Probably A) pulled out the freezer to take a photo or B) rigamortis


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## Jeffa (Dec 16, 2011)

newtolovingsnake said:


> i would assume that some sort of rigor had set in by the time the pic was taken?


Or maybe their first and last dance.


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## -Katana- (Dec 16, 2011)

AndrewHenderson said:


> Probably A) pulled out the freezer to take a photo or B) rigamortis





If you take a close look at the picture there's frost on the eyes (they're white) so I'm saying they got pulled out of the freezer for the photo.


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## D3pro (Dec 16, 2011)

Sorry I read his message wrong. They were in the freezer and were taken out for photos. They weren't dancing.


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## Basssman (Dec 16, 2011)

Hey d3pro the ones which died still look really swollen especially if they didn't absorb the yolk as well.
I've had lots of pythons hatch out and not absorb yolk and still be perfectly fine they are just a little bit skinnier than the clutch mates normally. 

Cheers sam


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## Greenmad (Dec 16, 2011)

Basssman said:


> Hey d3pro the ones which died still look really swollen especially if they didn't absorb the yolk as well.
> I've had lots of pythons hatch out and not absorb yolk and still be perfectly fine they are just a little bit skinnier than the clutch mates normally.
> 
> Cheers sam



+1 Sam


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## D3pro (Dec 16, 2011)

Basssman said:


> Hey d3pro the ones which died still look really swollen especially if they didn't absorb the yolk as well.
> I've had lots of pythons hatch out and not absorb yolk and still be perfectly fine they are just a little bit skinnier than the clutch mates normally.
> 
> Cheers sam



One of the 5 did absorb the yolk but somehow drowned in the fluids. The rest didn't.
I'm guessing it's normal to have the odd weak hatchie in the clutch. The rest are doing great.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 16, 2011)

Very nice looking snakes.
D3pro, do these snakes have any Jag relatives?


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## cement (Dec 16, 2011)

D3pro said:


> View attachment 230243
> View attachment 230244
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ned_fisch (Dec 16, 2011)

cement said:


> D3pro said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 230243
> ...


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 16, 2011)

They just look liked they have karked it while partially wrapped around the perch the others are on


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

It would be great to be able to say to the wider community
Australia has possibly developed something like a Jag that may turn morelia breeding upside down

But cant say that without an assurance that there are no Jag genes involved

No need for details
Just a simply yes/no answer would suffice


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## Chris1 (Dec 16, 2011)

i saw a thread on here a while ago about some jungles i think where a whole clutch turned out with a similar crazy pattern,...something to do with an incubator prob at some point in the cooking process if i remember correctly?

they look awesome anyway!!

found the link,......
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/odd-jungles-154743/


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## Jeffa (Dec 16, 2011)

Chris1 said:


> i saw a thread on here a while ago about some jungles i think where a whole clutch turned out with a similar crazy pattern,...something to do with an incubator prob at some point in the cooking process if i remember correctly?
> 
> they look awesome anyway!!


Even the dead ones? I am sure they can be sent your way. Just invest in a few jars and some metho and you are set.
If you want that neuro touch, just shake the bottle.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 16, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Even the dead ones? I am sure they can be sent your way. Just invest in a few jars and some metho and you are set.
> If you want that neuro touch, just shake the bottle.


Id take a dead one, that would be an awesome addition to my mantel piece


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## Chris1 (Dec 16, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Even the dead ones? I am sure they can be sent your way. Just invest in a few jars and some metho and you are set.
> If you want that neuro touch, just shake the bottle.



i read the first page,...what page are the dead ones on?
...wanna see if theyre worth the jar and metho, lol,...


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## Jeffa (Dec 16, 2011)

Geckoman said:


> Id take a dead one, that would be an awesome addition to my mantel piece


There may be a place for jags in Aussies collections afterall.


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## D3pro (Dec 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> It would be great to be able to say to the wider community
> Australia has possibly developed something like a Jag that may turn morelia breeding upside down
> 
> But cant say that without an assurance that there are no Jag genes involved
> ...



No. The % says it.
But in saying that, calling it the new jag is overly ambitious.
Proving it's genetics are the breeders number one goal.
The next step is putting the parent back together, and seeing if the results are duplicated.
The rest you all know.


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## longqi (Dec 16, 2011)

There is a HUGE difference between the possible answers here

If either of the parent stock had any Jag genes they are still just Jags with all the inherent problems and only the advantage of possibly 100% morph per clutch
Nothing too interesting there unless you are a Jag breeder

But if neither parent has any Jag genes these possibly open up a whole new ball game

Surely it cannot give the game away about who the breeder is for them to simply say
Yes Jag/ No Not jag


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## junglepython2 (Dec 16, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Ok had a quick flick threw the thread .
> 
> No jag gene ?.
> No funky incubation ? .
> ...



Have to agree with this....

Plus if all juveniles have this appearance and they are from suposedly "normal parents"?? then it screams of enviromental influence rather then genetic but only time will tell.


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 16, 2011)

i know this is a noob question but..... how do u prove genetics???? i have no idea on that topic :/


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## saximus (Dec 16, 2011)

dylan-rocks said:


> i know this is a noob question but..... how do u prove genetics???? i have no idea on that topic :/



Mating babies to parents or siblings and seeing if the same mutation occurs in their offspring. If it doesn't then it was likely just a one off fluke but if it does then you can start to assume it's an inheritable genetic trait


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 16, 2011)

saximus said:


> Mating babies to parents or siblings and seeing if the same mutation occurs in their offspring. If it doesn't then it was likely just a one off fluke but if it does then you can start to assume it's an inheritable genetic trait


ok thanks for clearing that up for me


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## Shotta (Dec 17, 2011)

sorry for the noob question
but did the jaguar pattern/gene originate from the coastal carpet?


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## No-two (Dec 17, 2011)

Cutting eggs open early and 'triggering' smaller hatchies to come out before they're ready is a load of crap.


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## Renenet (Dec 17, 2011)

No-two said:


> Cutting eggs open early and 'triggering' smaller hatchies to come out before they're ready is a load of crap.



What is the idea behind cutting the eggs open anyway? I've never bred, but it seems to me it would be more logical to let them come out on their own.


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## longqi (Dec 17, 2011)

sanosuke said:


> sorry for the noob question
> but did the jaguar pattern/gene originate from the coastal carpet?[/QUOTE
> 
> ]In the early 1990s a Guy called Jan Engels accidentally bred a strange clutch from 2 carpets
> ...


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## zack13 (Dec 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> sanosuke said:
> 
> 
> > sorry for the noob question
> ...


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## longqi (Dec 17, 2011)

zack13 said:


> longqi said:
> 
> 
> > You go on and on about it being from the Iryan Jayan but do you have any proof or is this just some assumption you have come up with yourself?
> ...


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 17, 2011)

I have not herd your IJ neuro issue theory before Longqi but this page with info written by Jan Eric has been online for years .
Heres the link .
Jaguarpython.dk


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## zack13 (Dec 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> zack13 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been very interested in Jags since I first saw them in Hamburg in the late 1990s
> ...


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## DerekRoddy (Dec 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> zack13 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been very interested in Jags since I first saw them in Hamburg in the late 1990s
> ...


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## longqi (Dec 17, 2011)

zack13 said:


> longqi said:
> 
> 
> > What about pure coastal carpets that have the neuro problem how would they be explained?
> ...


----------



## Shotta (Dec 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> sanosuke said:
> 
> 
> > sorry for the noob question
> ...


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 17, 2011)

[h=4]From the original breeder of jags Jan Eric Engell


Jaguar historien[/h]
Teksten er klippet fra Jan Eric Engels gamle hjemmeside.


After several years of breeding Coastal Carpet Pythons, Morelia s. mcdowelli, (former Morelia s. variegatae) I suddenly produced a most unusual looking specimen one day in 1994.

It looked completely different compared to all other mcdowelli hatchlings as far as pattern and color was concerned. It was almost patternless along its back except for a few markings on its neck. The background color was of a light pinkish tan with light brown blotches bordered with a black edging along the sides of the entire body. 

Between the age of two and three the background color of this animal turned more and more yellow. As an adult this male still takes my breath away even though he has begun shading to very beautiful orange color. No signs of fading or black tipping of the background color has occurred in this animal, as is often the case with Jungle Carpets as they age.

In 1997 I named this exceptional specimen the Jaguar Carpet, which I found to be most appropriate due to its color and pattern. 

Thus the Jaguar name was introduced to the herp scene for the very first time.

It was now time to find out if this spontaneous mutation was of a dominant or recessive trait. In 1998 I bred him with an unrelated Coastal female. Unfortunately this resulted in only four good eggs. However, one of the babies turned out to be a true Jaguar Carpet. Now there was no doubt that this was a genetic trait. The background color of this specimen turned completely yellow during its second year and with an unbelievable head pattern.

Using the same breeding pair in 1999 I produced twelve babies. Four were normals and eight were true Jaguars. All of these went to the United States.

The following year I managed to produce approximately 50% normals and 50% Jaguars from two unrelated mcdowelli females. This suggests that the Jaguar gene is of a co-dominant trait. 
One female (#2 on the Coastal page) laid 49 eggs, whereas 4 were non-viable. 22 Jaguars and 23 normal sibs was the result from this clutch. Perhaps not so astonishing since the female at the time was 11 feet long and weighing close to 22 pounds, but still a pretty impressive sized clutch.
Thanks to the founder Jaguar male.

Finally, something even more spectacular appeared among the 22 Jags that year, namely the patternless Banana Jaguar Carpet with only a small blotch between her eyes. She was one of a kind, but unfortunately she died in 2002 before she reached the age of two. I have been hoping to produce some new ones ever since, but the large female Coastal has not produced a clutch since. 

She was imported to Norway in 1976 when she was only about 4 feet long and today she is a huge monster at close to 13 feet with a weight of over 30 pounds. Her head is as big as my rather large fist and she has a really bad temper to go along with it. I am still hoping every year that she will lay a new clutch, but I am afraid she might have passed her retirement age.

The second female (#1 on my Coastal page) started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project that year. She was bred to the son of the founder, who I simply call “Junior” and who made his sexual debut quite early. Even though their clutch was small compared to the other one, this breeding pair managed to produce a few Hypo Jaguars including the first Red Hypo Jaguar pair.

The two Red Hypos not only lacked black tipping on the background scales, but also showed no signs of developing black tipping within the blotches. They simply looked amazing…

The background color of the Hypo Jaguar juveniles should slowly start to turn yellow by one year and continue to intensify as they age.

Despite the fact that the founder male did not turn bright yellow until the age of three, it seems like most of the offspring from the hypo bloodline develop the yellow coloration much earlier. The background color of the Red Hypos on the other hand turn into a more white coloration with age, extending from ivory white to cream to a soft yellowish white. As adults they can almost be called white hypos.

Regular Jaguars develop black tipping either on their background scales or within their blotches or both. As you can clearly see on the Regular Jaguar page. This development can start right after their first shed as a juvenile or take up to their second year to develop. Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars do not develop black tipping and that is why I call them hypos, namely due to the fact that these specimens have a reduction in black pigmentation. Even H. Bernard Bechtel, who wrote the book “Reptile and Amphibian Variants”, agrees with me on this point.

It was not until 2003 I did my first Jaguar to Jaguar breeding and from that point on I have had some pretty amazing results as well as producing a few new Jaguar morphs. The following breedings and results have taken place here at my facility since 2003 and up until today.

HYPO JAGUAR x HYPO JAGUAR (3 clutches) = mostly Hypo Jaguars and a few Red Hypos together with normal sibs and some dead Leucists. I also produced the very first Super Hypo from my high yellow Hypo pair in 2003. 

The Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch are really high contrast in pattern and color even at birth, especially the ones produced by the breeder pair already mentioned.

The Red Hypos are also unique from this breeding since the background color of the 2003 specimens have turned bright yellow instead of the usual white. A Hypo Tiger Jaguar was produced in 2004. No Regular Jaguars were produced. Since I have only produced small clutches from such breedings due to the fact that close to half of the eggs have gone bad during incubation I do need a perfect clutch in order to iron out the exact % of each morph from such a breeding.

There might also be other hidden morphs.......
I do have such a perfect clutch in the incubator ready to hatch any day now. The results will be updated later.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (4 clutches) = mostly Red Hypos (including blue tongued and a few red tongued specimens), a few Hypos and sibs, Super Red Hypos and some dead leucists. Two of these leucists stayed alive for a while. No Regular Jaguars were produced.

One of the two clutches I produced this year from such a breeding was finally a perfect 100% clutch (no slugs!) consisting of 21 eggs with the following results:

4 Leucists (dead!)
4 Super Reds (including twins!)
3 Leopard Jaguars - red burgandy phase
1 Leopard Jaguar - super red phase
4 Red Hypos
2 Hypos
4 Normal Sibs


So there you are, a new Jaguar morph can appear if you produce a perfect clutch. The Leopard Jaguar will be updated with pics later. More importantly, what is the actual SUPER morph in the Jaguar trait?
I have never believed it to be the Leucistic Jaguar. Seems to me that the leucist gene is one of many within the Jaguar project, something the results of the breeding above should clearly indicate. 

As with “Supers” from other co-dominant mutation breedings the Super usually resembles the original morph, but is a much better looking animal with brighter colors and less pattern. Or with a unique new pattern altogether even though it is easy to see where it came from. 

An example of many being the Tiger Retic and the Super Tiger Retic or the Pastel Balls and the Super Pastels. An even better example is the Platty Ball python project. Here you have combinations of Lesser Platty balls producing not only two leucistic forms, but also the Super Lessers. 
The Platty obviously has several hidden genes, much like that of the Jaguar Carpet.
With the Leopard Jaguar suddenly appearing I am getting even more confused concerning the Jaguar trait, but for now I am sticking to what I have called the Supers on my website, at least until the opposite has been proven. 

More perfect clutches have to be produced before the Jaguar puzzle is in place.

HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch 2004) =
2 Red Hypo Jaguars, 3 Super Red Hypo Jaguars, 1 Hypo Jaguar and 2 dead Leucists.
No normal sibs or Regular Jaguars were produced. There were several slugs in this clutch so the result speaks for itself. More clutches needed in order to iron out the possibilities from such a breeding.

REGULAR JAGUAR X REGULAR JAGUAR =
Such a breeding has not taken place at my facility, simply because I have not kept any Regular females. I have concentrated on Hypos due to lack of space.
However, Are Hogner at Oslo Reptile Park has done so and produced the first Tiger Jaguar in 2003. Otherwise I do not have his exact results so this is something I will have to come back to.
Other Jaguar breedings that have taken place since my last update are as follows.


HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
During the past three seasons I have bred my high yellow Hypo Jaguar male with 3 different unrelated Coastal females. Approximately 50% Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs was the result, not so strange considering the Jaguar trait is of a co-dominant trait. The hatchlings all looked like Hypos or Red Hypos when they were born, but a few started to develop this scale tipping already after their first shed. While others have taken up to two years to develop such tipping. Even though the amount of black tipping varies from specimen to specimen they do seem to develop this scale tipping with age, either on the background scales or within the blotches or both. Exactly like the Regular Jaguars do. 

However, the bright colors of these “intermedia” Jaguars develop at a much earlier stage (usually during their first and second year), much like that of the true Hypo Jaguars. They simply have a much cleaner and high contrast appearance despite of the black tipping. I therefore prefer to call them high contrast Jaguars so they do not get confused with Regular or Hypo Jaguars.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
This has not been done at my facility. However, I expect the same results as when breeding a Hypo Jaguar with unrelated Coastal females. 

Unless you are lucky enough to own a normal, unrelated Coastal with a hidden hypo gene. Something a US breeder is supposed to have. Just like the normal Coastal female I am fortunate to own without knowing about her “little secret” until she started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project. New hypo bloodlines are good to find within the Carpet Python world.

I have found that the only way to produce Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars is by breeding Hypo x Hypo, Red Hypo x Red Hypo, Red Hypo x Hypo or Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line) and Red Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line). 

Otherwise, as already mentioned a Coastal with a hidden hypo gene is needed. Someone out there might very well own such a specimen without knowing, even though it is rare.

REGULAR JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTALS =
As with all Jaguar morphs when bred to a unrelated Coastal you do produce approximately 50% Regular Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs. However, so far I have been fortunate enough to produce the Banana Jaguar among the Regular Jaguars in the year 2000 and almost another one (with two blotches) the year before, except this specimen managed to drown inside the egg before it was supposed to hatch.

Secondly, the Hypo and Red Hypo project from another unrelated Coastal female the same year. And finally in 2004 the Axanthic Jaguar (3 more Axanthics this year!) from a third unrelated Coastal female.

These three breedings have been a result of breeding 3 separate Regular Jaguar males with 3 normal, unrelated Coastal females (also unrelated to each other). So what is going on? The Jaguar Carpet obviously has multiple hidden genes and depending on what genetic material lies within an unrelated Coastal counterpart you might very well be facing a totally new Jaguar morph.
I guess you could say I have been blessed 3 times already! The fact that it has happened to me does not mean it cannot happen to others also. The next new morph can just as well appear at some other Jaguar owner’s facility.
NORMAL SIB (Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) X HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch) =
I produced exactly 12 Sibs, 9 Hypo Jaguars and 3 Red Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch.
The Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars from such a breeding all look fantastic with no black tipping.

I will be producing more such clutches in order to find out more.


NORMAL SIB X NORMAL SIB (Both from Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) =
My findings are from two clutches. Only Normal Sibs were produced even though they had various patterns and colors. I now consider the normal sibs from the Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line to be most useful since when bred to a Hypo or Red Hypo Jaguar they are in fact capable of producing both of the Hypo Jaguar morphs. 

The Leucistic Jaguars are obviously a weak link within the Jaguar trait. So far I have produced a total of 26 dead leucists from the 8 Jaguar x Jaguar clutches mentioned earlier on this page. 

One of these leucists hatched by itself and stayed alive for a couple of hours while another one stayed alive for three days within its egg. Are Hogner of Oslo Reptile Park has produced 8 leucists so far from his Regular Jaguar pair. One of these stayed alive for about 26 hours after hatching while another one stayed alive inside the egg for over two days before it died. He has taken video footage of this Leucistic Jaguar while it was alive. You may view this footage on the "Jaguar Photos" page.

From a total of 34 Leucistic Jaguars produced here in Norway (from two different sources) only three have shown any signs of external body abnormalities (kinks etc.). The rest have looked perfect.

So why does the few that hatch by themselves die shortly after? Could it be that their lungs are simply disfunctional during the transition to atmospheric breathing? Or could it be caused by some other internal disorder? I believe the only way to produce a healthy leucistic specimen is to dilute the Jaguar bloodline by several generations and then breed two completely unrelated Jaguars to each other.

On another genetic note. It seems to me that if you breed a Jaguar male with several normal, unrelated Coastal females this might most likely result in an unequal distribution of the different morphs, according to the variations in the genetic material of the various normal Coastal females.

An example might be that I have only produced 3 banded Jaguar specimens (from 3 separate Jaguar morphs) during the course of three years while a US breeder in 2004 produced a clutch from his Red Hypo
Jaguar male to a normal, unrelated female Coastal, whereas most of the hatchlings were banded.

The above statements reflects only on my findings at my facility so far. Breedings will vary of course. There is still a lot to be learnt, but I am slowly learning more each year as far as the Jaguar trait is concerned.
I do not have all the answers. More breeding and perfect clutches are required in order to iron out the possibilities. It seems like an endless quest since it looks like a new Jaguar morph appears almost annually. I am not complaining though.
The Jaguar project is without a doubt the most interesting Carpet Python project around and probably for years to come.

There has been a lot of discussions on Carpet forums whether my Jaguars are actual Coastals or not.
During the 1960’ies and 1970’ies the only Carpet Pythons you could get your hands on here in Europe were Coastals. All of the Carpets I collected at the time were the Brisbane variety. 

Their lenghts speak for themselves. Simply the fact that my Coastals have reached lenghts on average of 10-11 feet, with the exceptions of a few 13 footers should be proof enough. My “Big Mamma“ as I call my oldest normal Coastal is now 13 feet. Two of my largest Jaguars are now approximately 10 and 11 feet long.
Do Jungles or Irians reach such sizes?


I had not even heard about Jungle or Irian Carpets when the new reptile law went into effect on January 1st. 1977, making it illegal to import reptiles to Norway. From this date on it was also illegal to own reptiles unless you obtained a dispensation from the Ministry of Agriculture. I do possess such a permit on all my snakes.

My facility is inspected a few times each year by the Norwegian Veterinary authorities. Not only are the python eggs inspected and counted, but also the babies after they hatch. Everything is accounted for and if as much as one animal should die during the year I have to put it in the freezer and report it to the authorities. I also have to keep the empty eggs frozen until the inspector arrives. All the frozen eggs as well as potential dead animals are then handed over to the vet. inspector. These are used in educational purposes or properly disposed of by the authorities.
THAT IS HOW STRICT IT IS HERE IN NORWAY. Be glad you herpers do not live here!

In other words keeping illegal animals at my facility is not worth the risk of having my collection confiscated. The only Carpet Python I have a permit for is the Coastal Carpet (former variegatae, now mcdowelli) and that is the only Carpet specie I intend to keep here in Norway. End of story!

And if you wonder why it was called variegatae back then it was simply because the Morelia “Carpet” group was devided into variegatae (all the Carpets), bredli (Centralians) and spilota (Diamonds). They were not separated into subspecies back then.

So there won’t be any further misunderstandings to the following warning. Two Europeans and one Las Vegas petstore manager tried to pass off their Irian Jaya Carpets as true Jaguars during 2001/2002. I have kept all the correspondence as evidence, just in case I ever needed proof.
NOTE!

Be aware that there are a few Irian Jaya Carpets out there that can be mistaken for true Jaguar Coastals. At least as far as pattern is concerned, but the comparison ends there. Most importantly, the color is totally different. 

True Jaguars develop with age a bright yellow/orange background color.
Furthermore, the true Jaguar bloodline is capable of producing several unique Jaguar morphs.
I would therefore simply call these Irian Jayas for so-called "false" Jaguars at best, since they lack the possibilities of true Jaguars. Even though Irian Jaya Carpets are beautiful animals I would not want people to get ripped off, expecting or hoping these to be from my Jaguar bloodline.
I just wanted to clear this up once and for all.

Thank you!
Jan Eric Engell



Text of Jan Eric Engell, Untitled Document​


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## Morphed (Dec 17, 2011)

Terrific looking snakes: well done to the breeder and good luck


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## hugsta (Dec 17, 2011)

Not getting into the whole JAG debate thing, I think it has been done more than enough times. If only people could have respect for others and their beliefs, the world would be a much better place to live in.

The only problem I see by not coming out into the clear about the origins of these animals is all the theorisation of what these animals may be. Long term, this will be bad for the animals. I had similar problems when I posted pics of my MD up in a more recent thread, people were PMing about what JAG I had crossed them with to create these animals. I told them they were pure and linked them to the original thread I posted which had the animals hatching, the adults etc etc. There is now no speculation of what they are. If you want to keep these animals seperate to JAGs, you need to come clean real quick, or as most have said, they are just JAGS mixed with something else and possible incubations problems. These 'rumours' will taint the line before you start to prove it out. Pics of the adults all the breeding, incubation info etc etc. all need to be exposed. The owner, if they wish to remain annonymous can still do so by getting someone else to post all the relevant info. Just my thoughts on this silly 'look what I've got but not going to prove it to anyone rubbish'. See it all the time, people put up pics of some random mutation, but won't back up their claims with pics of the parents or any relevant info. To me it just screams bullcraaap. Oh, and if you wish to remain annonymous, then don't post anything at all until you are ready to defend your claims against all those that wish to detract from the animals. Just my thoughts.


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## Waterrat (Dec 17, 2011)

hugsta, I think just like you said we should respect others and their beliefs, we should also respect the intellectual property (that's what it is, isn't it?) of the breeder and his/her wish to remain anonymous. 
The mistake was made by posting the pictures and some dribble passed on by a messenger.


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## DerekRoddy (Dec 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> There is a distinct possibility that this is correct
> But the sudden flood of people noticing and publicly saying so didnt come from those who had direct lines bred by Jan Engels
> They came from other lines
> As far as I can find out all of those other lines had IJ in them
> ...



Well, there is only one source of jag and every form has been known to exhibit the neuro. Even Will Leary (and his animals are directly from Jan) had the conversation about it at Morelia Pythons. His original breeder male from Jan displayed neuro so.....it was defiantly there before IJ were bred in. In fact, I had some offspring from Jan/Will original breeding to other coastal carpets and they all had it.

Comes with the mutation....no way around it. Same as the Spider Ball Pythons......always had it.....always will.



D


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## jinjajoe (Dec 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> hugsta, I think just like you said we should respect others and their beliefs, we should also respect the intellectual property (that's what it is, isn't it?) of the breeder and his/her wish to remain anonymous.
> The mistake was made by posting the pictures and some dribble passed on by a messenger.



respect others ??? & then direct abuse in the very next sentence ??? what a joke........


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## RHCP1 (Dec 18, 2011)

WOW, amazing. Not 48 hours and already over 11000 hits.

Imagine the number of hits if it was ALL about something that was actually IMPORTANT

Reminds me of something I heard an old bloke say,,,,,the future is the past re-visited....I think he meant the everything is like the world, it just goes round and round


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2011)

jinjajoe said:


> respect others ??? & then direct abuse in the very next sentence ??? what a joke........



Where is the abuse Joe? Super sensitive at 1am?


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## jahan (Dec 18, 2011)

Has there ever been any DNA tests on 
jags to see if they are pure Morelia in the first place?
Jan has been caught out telling a few blowies before.


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

What could they be other than pure Morelia ?



jahan said:


> Has there ever been any DNA tests on
> jags to see if they are pure Morelia in the first place?
> Jan has been caught out telling a few blowies before.


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## jahan (Dec 18, 2011)

Who knows thats why I ask?


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm just not sure what you are saying, do you mean a cross with a totally different non Morelia species ?


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 18, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> [h=4]From the original breeder of jags Jan Eric Engell
> 
> 
> Jaguar historien[/h]
> ...




Thanks for that jungle freak. Thats the first time i have read about jags and how they started. a very informative piece.

I have one question: If the original Jags were from two normal coastals, albeit one with a special gene. Is it possible that anyone could end up with Jags, if they were lucky enough to end up with a "special" coastal? And going by what Longqi said, is it possible then that they may not have the neuro issues.


Sorry for the maybe stupid question, i am new to this and i dont quite understand the whole jag thing..


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

Well of course anything is possible but it is the combination of 2 'special' snakes that makes the difference. Think of it as lightning hitting the end of a pencil twice 



newtolovingsnake said:


> Thanks for that jungle freak. Thats the first time i have read about jags and how they started. a very informative piece.
> 
> I have one question: If the original Jags were from two normal coastals, albeit one with a special gene. Is it possible that anyone could end up with Jags, if they were lucky enough to end up with a "special" coastal? And going by what Longqi said, is it possible then that they may not have the neuro issues.
> 
> ...


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## junglepython2 (Dec 18, 2011)

There was likely nothing special about the original parents at all, just a once off, pure fluke, spontaneous mutation in one of the offspring which created the JAG gene.


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## jahan (Dec 18, 2011)

yes.


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## jinjajoe (Dec 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Where is the abuse Joe? Super sensitive at 1am?



someone has to stick up for the D3pro !!!!!


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## Herpaderpa (Dec 18, 2011)

jinjajoe said:


> someone has to stick up for the D3pro !!!!!





Poor D3pro... he was just very excited  Wouldn't you be? I know I would be. I'd probably be more inclined to keep it to myself though, unless the breeder was ok with full disclosure. Otherwise there is too much fall out.


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## longqi (Dec 18, 2011)

DerekRoddy said:


> Well, there is only one source of jag and every form has been known to exhibit the neuro. Even Will Leary (and his animals are directly from Jan) had the conversation about it at Morelia Pythons. His original breeder male from Jan displayed neuro so.....it was defiantly there before IJ were bred in. In fact, I had some offspring from Jan/Will original breeding to other coastal carpets and they all had it.
> 
> Comes with the mutation....no way around it. Same as the Spider Ball Pythons......always had it.....always will.
> 
> ...



Thankyou Derek
That is the first time anyone has said that Jans Jags had neuro to my knowledge
I believe Will got his from the second breeding cycle if Im correct??
And that was about 2 years before IJs were introduced
Oh well
Thats my theory shot to bits


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## Southside Morelia (Dec 18, 2011)

Wow I got to the end, now i'm exhausted....I guess its all been said before......nice animals though looking forward to seeing how they grow as everyone.


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## D3pro (Dec 18, 2011)

Thanks Joe. (And to my other buddies  )

The problem is that people will believe what they choose to believe.

Info on incubation has been put up, and these were incubated with other clutches that turned out as expected.
I have said a few times now, these were not pure carpets and that these aren't Jags.
Pictures of the entire clutch even the dead babies were shown.

Understandably many are critical, these things don't happen often. But no one is more critical and doubtful then the breeder himself. I too have my doubts and when the people that called me were saying how these could be so called game changers, I re-re-stated, that they needed to be proven.

And pictures of the parents? I have seen them, they are normal carpets. The male is slightly better looking. Both Semi striped but not really a notable trait.
The owner doesn't wan't to post them, but even if he did, what would that achieve? Anyone can post two random carpets can't they?

Even you hungsta, how easy it would be to post two random MD's and say they were the parents? (I'm not doubting your snake tho)

So it doesn't really matter, and this will be the last post, because all that's going to happen after this will be more doubting and accusing, trolls venting their sexual frustrations and certain members sending me confused PM's about these animals being photoshopped.

All I did was help out a mate, I'm done helping.
Talk to you guys somewhere else lol


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## longqi (Dec 18, 2011)

Quote] I have seen them, they are normal carpets. The male is slightly better looking. Both Semi striped but not really a notable trait.[unquote]

AWESOME
I hope it isnt just a one off and the hatchies grow strong and parents breed pure again
Could be exciting times ahead for the breeder


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> Well of course anything is possible but it is the combination of 2 'special' snakes that makes the difference. Think of it as lightning hitting the end of a pencil twice







junglepython2 said:


> There was likely nothing special about the original parents at all, just a once off, pure fluke, spontaneous mutation in one of the offspring which created the JAG gene.







jahan said:


> yes.




Thank you all so much.


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## Southside Morelia (Dec 18, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Thanks Joe. (And to my other buddies  )
> 
> The problem is that people will believe what they choose to believe.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately that's APS mate....as we all know and "love"  
We all like to help out mates who are the trail blazers, me also, as one mate in particular is a trail blazer and a relative unknown on these sites, but not in the hobby of course as he has given many of his new project offspring to all the "gurus" for them to get the limelight. I have done this like you, on a couple of times for him and then been the slandered, because of it. I have never received a PM from any of the doubting Thomas's with an apology when the said animal has made a public appearance after all the skepticism and public ridicule....but hey, once they are in the hobby we all look back and laugh at the key board warriors with the intellect to join NASA as Baden has so correctly pointed out, never say another word.
Its the hobby Bro and the input by some on this site, don't stress about it! lol
As much as I like jags in the hobby and understand there is room for the 2, its always been my concern how we can keep pure line morphs away from the debate that there must be jag genes involved because they are new and look different. 
Have a look at Rogers, Colins, the Stock line "pure" animals over the years and many others for that matter and what they have accomplished so far. Everything different will be under scrutiny because of Jags and thats my only negative view about them.
We need to mange this correctly.


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## FusionMorelia (Dec 18, 2011)

nice weird snakes, i dont see tribal though, to me it looks like a tiger jag. good luck with it all.


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## viridis (Dec 18, 2011)

I cannot be bothered reading 17 pages of a thread but can you put up some video footage of them eating with a current Courier mail heading under their tubs?

If they are not Jags, well done however with the amount of Jags kicking around these will never be taken by the general public as anything other then Jags and that is the sad truth!

That is the problem with all of the Jags kicking around now, any other morph or form of Carpet will always have an element of doubt over them. At least when Hugsta bred his amazing M.D's Jags were not in the ball park in Aus. Same with my Ghost Darwins, just a few weird snakes out of normal parents.

Even if they are Jag crosses they are definately wild looking snakes.

They are trick looking snakes and if the prove to have no neuro issues.........well look out _Morelia Morphs in the southern states of Aus _


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## Southside Morelia (Dec 18, 2011)

viridis said:


> At least when Hugsta bred his amazing M.D's Jags were not in the ball park in Aus. Same with my Ghost Darwins, just a few weird snakes out of normal parents.
> 
> They are trick looking snakes and if the prove to have no neuro issues.........well look out _Morelia Morphs in the southern states of Aus _



Nick, those Ghost Darwin's are amazing, as are some of the jungles you guys have produced. My first "designer" animal was purchased from you many a year ago.
Hugsta ditto to his achievement as well as Roger and Co.
It does suck a ball bag and a shame for those dedicated to producing pure line morphs.


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## Fantazmic (Dec 19, 2011)

Renenet said:


> At this early stage they look like iced donuts that went wrong. If they colour up like albino darwins do, I might find them more attractive. Still, I don't think they'll be for me. I've yet to see a morph available in Australia that gets me excited. I'm afraid I'm attracted to the natural-looking snakes.
> 
> Nonetheless, if they're Jag/neuro free, all good luck to your friend, D3pro. If it is genetic, I'll be keen to see how the project develops over the years.



Love the analogy of iced doughnuts lol

I have to admit I love Jungles and I do like stripes...but there is something about the lack of contrast ...that looks very strange to me....the pattern is too reduced....for me it is a fine line.....or a fine stripe lol

Still just my opinion


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## jahan (Dec 20, 2011)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="spider carpall update - YouTube" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Some of these look like tribal carpets.


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## Perko (Dec 24, 2011)

Hows these critters going? Any updates


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## ToadCountry (Dec 24, 2011)

I wish the breeder the VERY BEST of luck in his venture.


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## Fantazmic (Dec 27, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Ok had a quick flick threw the thread .
> 
> No jag gene ?.
> No funky incubation ? .
> ...



Roger you are a genious finding that thread. I was sitting here with Hubby reading this thread and I said to him I am sure Ive seen something like this before and I couldnt think where, I even remembered the person who was the breeder was in Melbourne.

It has all beeen an interesting read and I am very guided by your thoughts as you know because I respect your experience and honesty as a breeder.

I guess what I've learned from this thread is....post pics of Mum and Dad...breeding history....and then pics of the freaky babies and you should be ok


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## Red-Ink (Jan 21, 2012)

Has the tribe retreated back to the dark jungles... any news on when their coming back out into the light?


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## abnrmal91 (Jan 21, 2012)

Update pics?


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## D3pro (Jan 21, 2012)

Red-Ink said:


> Has the tribe retreated back to the dark jungles... any news on when their coming back out into the light?



hahaha, you made a funny red ink, well done.

No I won't be doing any more visual updates, I told the certain breeder that they can do it themselves. I do know they are eating and shedding well.


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## abnrmal91 (Jan 21, 2012)

On their website not much of a secret.
Edited out web address, PM if you want the link.

I can still send the link to the site however as of yesterday morning the pics where removed.


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## atothej09 (Jan 21, 2012)

Very interesting, great post, I like strong original patterns though.
The morph world are creaming their pants right now...


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## Mo Deville (Jan 25, 2012)

I finally reached the end of this thread, im going back to the jungle and morelia milkshake threads its more fun over there lol!!! :lol:


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## dee4 (Jan 26, 2012)

abnrmal91 said:


> On their website not much of a secret.
> Edited out web address, PM if you want the link.
> 
> I can still send the link to the site however as of yesterday morning the pics where removed.



:lol: Your right it hasn't been much of a secret, I think pretty much all knows who has them and what web site it's on.


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## Perko (Apr 24, 2012)

How are these going? Would love to see some pics


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## Jay84 (Apr 24, 2012)

They are growing really well and powering along. The look fantastic.


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## D3pro (Apr 24, 2012)

I can't post links on here, but they are doing great.


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## JrFear (Apr 24, 2012)

can u Pm me the link =]


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## Colin (Apr 24, 2012)

are these are the pythons meyndert bred? Or are these something else entirely?


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## D3pro (Apr 24, 2012)

Colin said:


> are these are the pythons meyndert bred? Or are these something else entirely?



Yes that's right Colin. You can check out the facebook page, there is some videos on there and plenty of updated images.


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## MrBredli (Apr 24, 2012)

Could it be as simple as all eggs having been pipped a week or two early, prior to the patterns forming fully?

I had a clutch of bredli go haywire a couple of seasons ago due to a poor choice in tub and of the few eggs that almost went the distance (but didn't) the 'non-hatchies' within looked quite similar to these.


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## Vixen (Apr 24, 2012)

That could make sense - its not just the pattern that looks odd about them, they did seem somewhat underdeveloped (and very swollen looking over the whole body, not to do with yolk absorption)


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## citrus (Apr 24, 2012)

it would of been good to see the whole clutch as they may all be rp but maybe a co dom het and super form? looks very much like ghost darwins (rex and niks line) but cross to jungles would be nice to know but some how i dont think we ever will....


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## Colin (Apr 25, 2012)

D3pro said:


> Yes that's right Colin. You can check out the facebook page, there is some videos on there and plenty of updated images.



ok, I will have a look. 



citrus said:


> looks very much like ghost darwins (rex and niks line)



what ever happened to these? last I remember they were bought by someone in QLD that produced a few normal looking darwins with some striping but as far as I was aware none that looked like the original ghost male. the original male was a nice looking animal for sure. does any one know if there were any offspring that looked like this produced?


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## MathewB (Apr 25, 2012)

Can someone pm a link please?


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## MonitorMayhem (Apr 25, 2012)

wow cant believe i just read threw 18 pages of this anyway they look pretty cool no matter what they are good luck with your future projects etc
as you can tell not fussed on the is it pure is it a jag bit if i like it i like thats it.


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## jahan (Apr 25, 2012)

Colin said:


> ok, I will have a look.
> 
> 
> 
> what ever happened to these? last I remember they were bought by someone in QLD that produced a few normal looking darwins with some striping but as far as I was aware none that looked like the original ghost male. the original male was a nice looking animal for sure. does any one know if there were any offspring that looked like this produced?



Colin, i`ve seen these advertised in the melb tradingpost,they stiil are.


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## Colin (Apr 25, 2012)

seen what? ghost darwins? Ive only ever seen pics of the one original male and never anything bred that looked like him. thats why I asked.


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## reptileaddiction (Apr 25, 2012)

Colin said:


> seen what? ghost darwins? Ive only ever seen pics of the one original male and never anything bred that looked like him. thats why I asked.



Perhaps this should be a separate thread?


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## jahan (Apr 25, 2012)

*GHOSTS RPM Darwins (NOT JAGS). *This line has been around for years before jags-male GHOST paired with a female banded Darwin young very striped considering mum is banded
Also has a pic of Zobo`s Ghost Darwin.


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