# Baby Red Belly Black or????????



## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

Black with red belly, light redish band behind head , approx 30cm long. We are not in a commonly black snake area so finding this little one was fasinating. The kids had one earlier and by the time I got to them it had taken off for safety. Hubby found this one (possibly the same one the kids saw) in the drive way. It had been ran over. Will get pics to post tomorrow sometime.


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## Gruni (Nov 25, 2012)

Pics???? Ooops my, rushed my first read and then saw the last sentence...


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

Pics I think are essential for a accurate but if had a band on the nape that could of been a Copperhead as some specimens possess this. Perhaps a location to might help.


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## moosenoose (Nov 25, 2012)

Sounds like a red naped snake, but we'd have to see pics for a positive ID, either that or a real crap guess from me :lol: Location would help immensely also


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## fourexes (Nov 25, 2012)

almost sounds small eyed apart from the redneck, sure it's just not a cowboy smalleyed? :lol:

does the pink/red belly extend up the sides or not?


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

VenomOOse said:


> Sounds like a red naped snake, but we'd have to see pics for a positive ID, either that or a real crap guess from me :lol: Location would help immensely also


It could be but they are not dark on the dorsum and the lowest part of the flanks tends to be a creamish colour and look rather different from red bellys. I think copperheads are a possible candidate but still it could be anything as I do not know the locality nor are there any pics up yet.


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## GeckPhotographer (Nov 25, 2012)

Without pics I'd put my money on GOlden Crowned.


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

squamulosus don't have a band on the nape but have 2 markings on the neck that do not connect nor is it red if we are going of the descriptions told but a picture would definitely confirm what sort of sp it is.


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## jedi_339 (Nov 25, 2012)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Without pics I'd put my money on GOlden Crowned.



Without pics the only possible explanation is keelback people :lol:

But in all seriousness OP there is no possible way for an identification without seeing a picture. We can only guess and even that's completely dependant on your perception of the colours in your description.


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## Gruni (Nov 25, 2012)

And a general geographic location wouldn't you think Jedi?


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## Echiopsis (Nov 25, 2012)

I feel the need to murder people who say keelback on this forum. If only I could send anthrax through the interweb....

Even with the description, GeckPhotographer could still be right. People often see what the want/ expect to see when dealing with snakes, particularly if they only have a passing interest.


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## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

Ok on better inspection I'm now not at all sure. We are Western Vic and Tigers are predominate for this area. Will endevour to post pics.

View attachment 271644
View attachment 271648


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## Gruni (Nov 25, 2012)

Attachment fail...


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## treeofgreen (Nov 25, 2012)

Advanced mode!


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## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

will try again. A lot of phone/internet lines still down in this area and what we have is slow. A pain for an allready slow area.

View attachment 271652


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

attachments have failed. Where abouts in western Vic?


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## GeckPhotographer (Nov 25, 2012)

Well in Western Vic I'd be wrong, it might be an unusually dark F.diadema or a D.mastersii


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## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

Hamilton not sure what I'm doing wrong here. Pics show as attachments when I view. I have resized so they are under 50kb without losing too much res

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View attachment 271654


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm open to various sp, but a locality (where in western vic) and pics would give me more of an idea but I understand that curiosity is having troubles loading pics at this time.

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Hamilton there is no red napes or masters so they are out of the question (nor did they fit the description) I could be wrong but the nape description makes me think a Austrelaps superbus.


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## jordo (Nov 25, 2012)

I would suspect it was a Copperhead or a dark juvenile eastern brown.
Copperheads can have a band across the nape and come in a variety of colours on the sides.



Austrelaps superbus, juveniles by Jordan de Jong, on Flickr


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## Wrightpython (Nov 25, 2012)

Echiopsis said:


> I feel the need to murder people who say keelback on this forum. If only I could send anthrax through the interweb....
> 
> Even with the description, GeckPhotographer could still be right. People often see what the want/ expect to see when dealing with snakes, particularly if they only have a passing interest.


What's wrong with keel backs , warning people someone on here will apparently murder you if you post a pic of a keel back and ask for an id


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## Echiopsis (Nov 25, 2012)

If its a keelback, cool. If its a moron with a low IQ 'being funny', anthrax it is....


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## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

well I guess I'm now treading on thin ****** whats a keel back? The only thing I want to see murdered here is technology. Burn down an exchange and the world slows.....to a grind


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## Gruni (Nov 25, 2012)

Freshwater Snake (Keelback Snake) - Queensland Museum


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

heres a pick of a Lowland Copperhead with a orangey-red nape and flanks not mine but a good example of what i am talking about.


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## Echiopsis (Nov 25, 2012)

Curiousity said:


> well I guess I'm now treading on thin ****** whats a keel back? The only thing I want to see murdered here is technology. Burn down an exchange and the world slows.....to a grind



Haha, your alright, theres just a few dead heads who post the same rubbish over and over and over again because they think they're funny.
Have you get a photobucket account or something similar? Upload it and dump the link here, you dont even need it to show in the thread.


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

Curiousity said:


> well I guess I'm now treading on thin ****** whats a keel back? The only thing I want to see murdered here is technology. Burn down an exchange and the world slows.....to a grind


Keelbacks are colubrids but are not apart of the snake fauna in victoria i think its a bit of a joke people have been making.


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## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

We do get Coppers here but have never seen a young copper. The band has got me. Had two people look today and they say Tiger. It's not like a young tiger I have seen


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

Curiousity said:


> We do get Coppers here but have never seen a young copper. The band has got me. Had two people look today and they say Tiger. It's not like a young tiger I have seen



Yeah tigers would be around there so it is certainly a possibility. If those 2 people are good at identifying snakes then i guess you have your answer.


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## jordo (Nov 25, 2012)

vicherps said:


> Keelbacks are colubrids but are not apart of the snake fauna in victoria i think its a bit of a joke people have been making.



It's an old APS joke, nothing to do with their distribution or the snake itself, I find it annoying because half the dim wits that say it don't even realise why it was funny in the first place.


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

jordo said:


> It's an old APS joke, nothing to do with their distribution or the snake itself, I find it annoying because half the dim wits that say it don't even realise why it was funny in the first place.


I shall reworded it because what I said before was a bit confusing. What I was meant to say was the thing about it being a Keelback was just a aps joke. But where I was getting to was that keelbacks are not apart of the Victorian snake fauna nor is any other colubrid for that matter (new comers might not get the joke).


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## BIGBANG (Nov 25, 2012)

if you are from hamilton my money is on copperhead, its full of them down there


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## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

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Tell me I got it.......... From what has been discussed I'm with the Copper head. As far as forum jokes go and newbies I can wear them. I myself can run off with the scienticfic gentics and paterns of some other breeds but reptiles well I'm the ? in the corner.


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## RedFox (Nov 25, 2012)

Copperhead and I see what you mean about the band. Here's a pic I stole form the internet for comparison.View attachment 271698


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## vicherps (Nov 25, 2012)

Curiousity said:


> View attachment 271697
> 
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


 It is a Lowland Copperhead (Austrelaps superbus) as I suspected.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 25, 2012)

Well picked *Jordan*. Spot on! 

*Curiosity*, I don't blame you for thinking it was a RBB. 
Copperheads do vary a lot in colour but they don’t tend to have the same deep glossy back that RBBs have and the top of the head is usually a different shade to the body colour. The side of the head in Copperheads will often be light in colour and show up the labial scales.

Blue

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One like this *Redfox*, from the Museum Victoria site?


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## Curiousity (Nov 25, 2012)

Over 26 years we have spotted one Copper (adult) doesn't mean by any means that they arn't about. Tigers on the other hand are a regular sighting. The head on this one didn't spell Copper to me but I guess being a youngster and the other being a (I'm a stick and hiding adult) the heads could look very different.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 26, 2012)

There is absolutely no shame in picking that specimen as a RBB. It is only on closer inspection that someone very familiar with both species would pick it. The band of colour across the nape says not a RBB. If you look carefully you can see the head is a dark tan rather than dark glossy black. In my limited experience, the ventro-lateral colours on Copperheads tend to be most intense on the front end of the animal, fading towards the rear.

I kept both as a kid and I reckon both are magnificent animals. They are very similar in so many ways. I think Copperheads are under-rated by most keepers for some reason. Add a decent water feature to your enclosure and it really brings out the best in them.

Cheers,
Blue


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## GeckoJosh (Nov 26, 2012)

RBBS don't always have dark black heads


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 26, 2012)

GeckoJosh said:


> RBBS don't always have dark black heads either


Do you have a photo to support that claim because in my experience it is only the snout or RBBs that are lighter.


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## GeckoJosh (Nov 26, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Do you have a photo to support that claim because in my experience it is only the snout or RBBs that are lighter.



I don't have any pics of my own to post but if you do a quick search I sure you will find more than a few.


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## Mulgaaustralis (Nov 26, 2012)

Plenty of red bellies with white-brown heads around Central Coast-North QLD. 
Most of them look disgusting but ones with entirely different coloured heads are cool.


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## vicherps (Nov 26, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Do you have a photo to support that claim because in my experience it is only the snout or RBBs that are lighter.


Whilst black some have brown snouts, white-brown snouts and some individuals have brown heads and of course a albino specimen wouldn't be black


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## Stuart (Nov 26, 2012)

.


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## Curiousity (Nov 26, 2012)

Thank you all for your help in identifing the little fellow. We do have another resident that I would like to know about but without photos I can see that it maybe be a hit and miss. It is about 2' long and a creamish colour with a darker head. Very shy and has only been seen twice. They never seem to present when a camera is in hand . Any way that is probably best put in another post. Right now I best get to some work so thank you again and hope to chat again soon.


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## moosenoose (Nov 26, 2012)

Yeah my red naped was a bit of a stretch  I wasn't sure of the locale anyway  .....or as someone mentioned, they aren't that dark in colour.


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## CamdeJong (Nov 26, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Do you have a photo to support that claim because in my experience it is only the snout or RBBs that are lighter.



I agree mate that nearly all RBBs have dark heads (usually bar the snout), but GeckoJosh is right in that some don't. It's just that troublesome minority, the always-present 'exception to the rule' where you get them with brown/lighter heads.



Sorry should've added this is one I caught in South-east QLD on a callout.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 27, 2012)

*CamdeJong*,Thanks for that. I really appreciate it. The best I could find on google was….



*Gecko Josh*, my apologies if I came across as a ‘doubting Thomas’. I am not a cynic by nature, however, after many years and many instances of what people say they perceived not closely matching the reality of their actual experiences, I tend to be a little on the sceptical side… usually based on my own experiences.

When I lived in NSW I saw quite a few RBBs over the 15 years or so I was actively herping there. I never saw an animal with brown beyond the snout. I did, however, see a not insignificant number that were totally black on the snout.

Do you guys consider this is primarily a Qld thing or does it also exist in NSW and Victoria?

Blue


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## CamdeJong (Nov 27, 2012)

I've never caught another one like that mate so I have no idea whether it's a regional trait. Always good to be skeptical and I didn't consider your previous response cynical. 
Cam


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## $NaKe PiMp (Nov 27, 2012)

i have caught an RBB a few years back with a complete Brown head,i have a picture of it im just looking it up and ill post it,very interesting find


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## Sel (Nov 27, 2012)

Echiopsis said:


> I feel the need to murder people who say keelback on this forum. If only I could send anthrax through the interweb....



Agree. It was old about 10 years ago.. give it a rest..


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 27, 2012)

Sel said:


> Agree. It was old about 10 years ago.. give it a rest..


Preferably a long, long, long rest!


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## eipper (Nov 27, 2012)

Ok mods start suspending Keelback offenders if its obvious


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## hilly (Nov 28, 2012)

There was a thread on here some time ago which had a picture of a red bellied black snake that had a completely brown head, but for the life of me I can't find it.


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## GeckoJosh (Nov 28, 2012)

.


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## Hoplophile (Nov 28, 2012)

BIGBANG said:


> if you are from hamilton my money is on copperhead, its full of them down there



There are plenty of copperheads around Hamilton and south west Victoria generally. Most of the ones I've seen on plains country are a light, coppery colour. I've seen dark ones like this in Otways forests. Copperheads are variable and the most commonly confused species with blacksnakes in Victoria, particularly around Melbourne where there's only a few localities that have red bellies.


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## BIGBANG (Nov 28, 2012)

Not sure why I was quoted there?


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## jedi_339 (Nov 28, 2012)

eipper said:


> Ok mods start suspending Keelback offenders if its obvious



It was hardly evident from the original post, as no locality, and a very general description was given. If you read the thread from start to finish you will notice the wild guesses that everyone was having. My comment was made before any picture was posted, so hardly 'obvious'.

The information I gave after the keelback line was in line with the rules of the thread, I gave my opinion that the species could not be identified without more information and the reason for it.


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## GeckoJosh (Nov 28, 2012)

jedi_339 said:


> It was hardly evident from the original post, as no locality, and a very general description was given. If you read the thread from start to finish you will notice the wild guesses that everyone was having. My comment was made before any picture was posted, so hardly 'obvious'.
> 
> The information I gave after the keelback line was in line with the rules of the thread, I gave my opinion that the species could not be identified without more information and the reason for it.



You were trying to be funny and failed miserably, just accept it


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## jedi_339 (Nov 28, 2012)

GeckoJosh said:


> You were trying to be funny and failed miserably, just accept it



For the purpose of closing the thread since everything has been said and done, I admit my attempt to use the old keelback line from 2008 (not 10 years ago Sel) was a failure


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## eipper (Nov 28, 2012)

Jedi

my post was in regard to the number of complaints by others re it's a Keelback and the like. Not the guess in this case, which from the original description without locality could of been many things including at a stretch Tropidinophis.

I reckon the its a Keelback stuff would stop if the ban/ suspensions started but its not my site to say how to run it.

cheers
scott


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