# Is my shingleback sick?



## tayloranne.35 (Dec 10, 2019)

Hi, I have a 1 year old shingleback that I recently purchased from a reputable breeder a week ago. He has been doing great, however I have noticed some weird symptoms he is displaying (I am in no way a shingleback expert so I am unfamiliar with classic shingleback behaviour and temperate and could really use some help).

He scratches at the floor a couple of times a day and nudges at the walls of his enclosure with his head as if he is trying to burrow through it.
He occasionally sneezes aswell (I have heard this is common through some lizards however he does it around 6 times a day). And he occasionally mouth gapes throughout the day, also sleeping with his mouth slightly open. Could it possibly be a respiratory infection? He has no clear mucous or discharge and he isn't wheezing but I have been wondering if thats a probable cause. Would he just be settling in?

He does eat great and basks when he needs too (settled the basking area to 35 degrees), then goes to bed at around 6pm. 

Any opinions, help and comments would be great


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## murrindindi (Dec 11, 2019)

tayloranne.35 said:


> Hi, I have a 1 year old shingleback that I recently purchased from a reputable breeder a week ago. He has been doing great, however I have noticed some weird symptoms he is displaying (I am in no way a shingleback expert so I am unfamiliar with classic shingleback behaviour and temperate and could really use some help).
> 
> He scratches at the floor a couple of times a day and nudges at the walls of his enclosure with his head as if he is trying to burrow through it.
> He occasionally sneezes aswell (I have heard this is common through some lizards however he does it around 6 times a day). And he occasionally mouth gapes throughout the day, also sleeping with his mouth slightly open. Could it possibly be a respiratory infection? He has no clear mucous or discharge and he isn't wheezing but I have been wondering if thats a probable cause. Would he just be settling in?
> ...



Hi, it would be helpful if you can put a couple of photos up of the whole enclosure and give details of the ambient (air) temps plus the humidity range and how you measure those and the basking surface temp. Thanks!


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## tayloranne.35 (Dec 11, 2019)

Oh okay yeah no problem, the enclosure is 100cm long, 51cm high and 60cm wide. It is a all wooden enclosure with a glass front, I have cut a giant hole in the top so he can get alot of ventilation and there are a few vent holes in the sides. The air temperatures are 35 in the basking area and 29 in the cool area. I use a thermostat to measure and control that. I do not have a tool to measure the humidity yet however I keep the enclosure very dry and give him a water dish every 2 days or so. He is on a bedding called reptibark.


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## murrindindi (Dec 11, 2019)

I don`t have much time it`s late here (U.K) but for now I will say that you absolutely must measure the humidity, you can use a temp/humidity gauge (digital) they are quite cheap but effective. I think you have too many ventilation holes, personally I would cover most of them and fit a solid top, that would give you a "self contained environment" where you could better control the conditions. I think the lizard may be trying to escape from the heat, you need a bigger gradient between the warm and cool areas; I would go for a minimum temp in the coolest parts of approx. 21c or so... More later today (I`m around 9hrs behind)... Next time can you say what the usual temps are in the room the enclosure`s in (day and night)?
One more point: You MUST have an infrared Temp-gun to measure the basking surface temp, your thermostat won`t do that, it works with the ambient (air) temps.


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## tayloranne.35 (Dec 11, 2019)

Ah okay no problem, I will get a humidity gauge soon, and I will purchase a larger enclosure so there can be more space between the hot and cold area, I will also get a temp gun. 
And in the room the enclosure is in, it is 30 degrees celsius in the day and in the night it is around 25 degrees Celsius. Also would you happen to know what the sneezing and gaping is from. Is that from the temperature? 
Thankyou for your help


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## murrindindi (Dec 12, 2019)

tayloranne.35 said:


> Ah okay no problem, I will get a humidity gauge soon, and I will purchase a larger enclosure so there can be more space between the hot and cold area, I will also get a temp gun.
> And in the room the enclosure is in, it is 30 degrees celsius in the day and in the night it is around 25 degrees Celsius. Also would you happen to know what the sneezing and gaping is from. Is that from the temperature?
> Thankyou for your help




You`re welcome to the advise!
If the room temps are around 25c at night you cannot really do much to reduce the lowest ambient temp, can I ask which state you`re in?
The digital hygrometer and Temp-gun are quite urgent, it extremely important to know the humidity range and basking surface temps. Can you say what wattage and type of heat bulb you use, and does it also emit UVB and also tell me the distance from the bulb face to the animal`s surface when it`s basking under it? The reason the lizard is gaping may be too much heat, the "sneezing" could just be dust in the air (obviously I`m only guessing, but you still need to acquire the instruments I`ve mentioned asap to determine whether it is more likely to be the conditions or possible sickness)?
I`m showing this photo in order to explain why knowing basking surface temps is so important, the ambient temp in the enclosure is around 32c close to the basking site, yet the surface temp of the basking stones is approx. 55c which is much higher than your lizard needs (I keep varanids) that`s why you need the Temp gun urgently (even though I doubt your surface temp will be that high).


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## tayloranne.35 (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm in the state of Queensland, Australia so it gets pretty hot and humid here. And yeah I will get a temp gun and digital hygrometer as soon as possible. 
My heat bulb is 75watts and is just a daylight heat bulb, it does not admit UVB as I have a separate UVB bulb next to it. 
The heatbulb is 35cm away from the shingleback.


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## murrindindi (Dec 13, 2019)

tayloranne.35 said:


> I'm in the state of Queensland, Australia so it gets pretty hot and humid here. And yeah I will get a temp gun and digital hygrometer as soon as possible.
> My heat bulb is 75watts and is just a daylight heat bulb, it does not admit UVB as I have a separate UVB bulb next to it.
> The heatbulb is 35cm away from the shingleback.


 

Then the temps/ humidity will not differ too much for most of the year (which is o.k) I think you`re probably using a compact UVB bulb, if yes, they are not very effective (sorry for more bad news!) in part because they emit UVB over a quite small area, much more efficient are the linear UVB fluorescent tubes, you will also need a batten to fit, that will depend on tube diameter which is either a T5 or T8 tube.
Until you get the humidity gauge and Temp-gun to check the conditions, not much more I can suggest other than to repeat that those items are quite urgent (a couple of days rather than weeks). Perhaps you might also need a lower wattage or more effective heat bulb, too? Once you can get those products and give the details I`ve asked for, please give an update. Having said all that, I think it is quite an "easy fix"...
Edit: One last suggestion; it might help if you can get a large tray and put a mixture of playsand and topsoil to a depth of 6 to 8cm if possible (it should only be very slightly damp, not wet) then cover that and the rest of the floor with non toxic leaves (as well as, or instead of the bark chips) that should create something of a cooler area if the lizard needs it.


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## nuttylizardguy (Dec 13, 2019)

tayloranne.35 said:


> Hi, I have a 1 year old shingleback that I recently purchased from a reputable breeder a week ago. He has been doing great, however I have noticed some weird symptoms he is displaying (I am in no way a shingleback expert so I am unfamiliar with classic shingleback behaviour and temperate and could really use some help).
> 
> He scratches at the floor a couple of times a day and nudges at the walls of his enclosure with his head as if he is trying to burrow through it.
> He occasionally sneezes aswell (I have heard this is common through some lizards however he does it around 6 times a day). And he occasionally mouth gapes throughout the day, also sleeping with his mouth slightly open. Could it possibly be a respiratory infection? He has no clear mucous or discharge and he isn't wheezing but I have been wondering if thats a probable cause. Would he just be settling in?
> ...



I don't think you have much to worry about unless it's too hot in the tank on those hot days .

Otherwise the skink is just testing the tank and exploring it , two of my three eastern water skinks do these scratching / digging behaviours -- trying to dig the corner of the 120L tubs they are currently housed in . I had to separate the juvenile male from the two adult females as one the females was giving him very hard time and very any piece .

The gaping most likely means the skink is too hot , unless of cause it's only doing this when you are near ==> a defensive threat display , don't come close as I'm a big nasty lizards and will attack you bluff .

I think you should definitely get hold of a brace of digital thermometers and monitor the following temperatures
> basking spot air and surface temperatures ( suggest PBT + 5 degC )
> warm zone air temperature ( suggest about the same as the skink's PBT )
> cool zone air temperature
> mid level substrate temperature
Very likely the behavior ( it's been very hot lately in most parts of Queensland ) is the skink trying to thermoregulate , turn off the basking globe for a day or two and watch to see if the behavior that worries you stops.

PBT = preferred body temperature = 33 degC for a shingleback skink
ref https://nswfmpa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Reptiles.-Shingleback-Lizard-2007AT.pdf

Similar to as explained here :





"escape / avoid thermoregulatory" behavior because entire tank is too hot.
45 degC is the critical thermal maximum for a shingleback.

If you leave the basking globe on during a heatwave (and it's very hot in the room) , the temperature can easily be driven higher than 45 degC in the entire tank , people have come home on hot days to find their pet reptile dead or near dead and immobile due to overheating.

Very good idea to not run the basking globe in your skink's tank if it's likely to be a hot day and warmer than 30 degC in the room or set up a automatic dimming thermostat to manage the output of the basking globe thusly :





Check the relative humidity too , but unlikely to be an issue unless you are somewhere like Cairns , if the skink has access to a nice big shallow water dish and maybe a moist hide it should be fine.
These are arid zone reptiles .

I'd make the substrate a bit thicker , I don't have a shingle back , but I do have eastern bluetongues , and they love being able to tunnel through their loose substrate and even bury themselves in it.
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tayloranne.35 said:


> I'm in the state of Queensland, Australia so it gets pretty hot and humid here. And yeah I will get a temp gun and digital hygrometer as soon as possible.
> My heat bulb is 75watts and is just a daylight heat bulb, it does not admit UVB as I have a separate UVB bulb next to it.
> The heatbulb is 35cm away from the shingleback.



Thermometers I recommend are these : https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4X-LCD-DIGITAL-THERMOMETER-for-Fridge-Freezer-Aquarium-FISH-TANK-Temperature-AU/193081111800?_trkparms=aid=333200&algo=COMP.MBE&ao=1&asc=20140723144413&meid=25252f8d77694a23b2d6c6ff2e135679&pid=100275&rk=2&rkt=4&sd=113828050750&itm=193081111800&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2060778&_trksid=p2060778.c100275.m3474
I've got several of these in each of my tanks at strategic spots and can see my temperatures anytime as a glance.


Can you tell us what brand , type , wattage and UVB rating the UVB bulb is , and if it's mounted in a dome reflector or reflector hood , and how far it's from the basking spot and from "floor" ( top of the substrate ).
"shop brands" of compacts and T8 and T5 UVB tubes are very poor quality. If it not an Exo Terra , or Zoo Med , or an Arcadia Reptile , it's doing more harm than good.

Just a side comment : an Exo Terra 26W UVB200 globe mounted in a Exo Terra Nano-hood is a very option for a tank about 40cm tall , works extremely well in my 120L rearing tubs and the same size converted tubs my 3 water skinks currently live in ( the skinks can climb within 20cm of the globe and are often seen basking for short periods each day ).

I think you should be trying get about 160 microW UVB / sq-cm at the basking , and 100 microW UVB / sq-cm on the top of the substrate for a shingleback skink.
I'm not saying you need to splash out on a Solarmeter model 6.2 or 6.5 ( UV-index version ) , a very good instrument to have in your kit none-the-less and worth buying.

This is a chart I cobbled together a while ago that will help you work out the distance to get any desired UVB flux for a range different commonly used UVB sources :




and a more recent one I put together for Arcadia's T5 UVB tubes :




Ignore the reference to P.vitticeps.

Your tank is 50cm tall, THERE IS NO COMPACT UVB globe that will give your skink sufficient UVA and UVB at that distance even mounted in reflector dome.
If the compact is a 26W UVB200 or equiv , it needs the dome to dangled from the tank's lid so the tube is not more than 20cm from the basking spot and 30cm from the top of the bedding.


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## tayloranne.35 (Dec 15, 2019)

Thankyou so much for your help. 
And the UVB bulb is an 'exoterra 150 watt intense UVB bulb'. It is 30cm away from the top substrate. And it is not using any sort of reflector type globe or dome however I understand that that is important and I will get the correct supplies shortly. Thankyou again from your help. 

I also have an idea that I need advice/opinions on. 
I would really like to provide him with a bigger floor space however still use the secureness of the tank. Would it be efficient if I connect a guinea pig hutch/cage/fenced area to the tank so he has the choice of his tank or a more open area. It will not be outside however and still be inside, that way he has a bigger area. I have heard various opinions on this already and have only seen this for outside use however is it possible to do that indoors?


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## murrindindi (Dec 16, 2019)

tayloranne.35 said:


> Thankyou so much for your help.
> And the UVB bulb is an 'exoterra 150 watt intense UVB bulb'. It is 30cm away from the top substrate. And it is not using any sort of reflector type globe or dome however I understand that that is important and I will get the correct supplies shortly. Thankyou again from your help.
> 
> I also have an idea that I need advice/opinions on.
> I would really like to provide him with a bigger floor space however still use the secureness of the tank. Would it be efficient if I connect a guinea pig hutch/cage/fenced area to the tank so he has the choice of his tank or a more open area. It will not be outside however and still be inside, that way he has a bigger area. I have heard various opinions on this already and have only seen this for outside use however is it possible to do that indoors?



Hi again, are you saying the bulb is an 150W MVB (mercury vapour) in your previous reply you said there was a 75w bulb, so you have a total wattage of 225w? With your climate and a relatively small enclosure that is FAR too much (this could be very dangerous for the lizard)! The most effective method is to house the (suitable) heating/lighting inside the enclosure (meaning you fit a solid top) even though the climate is normally warm and humid where you live it would still make it easier to control the temps and humidity. If you want to add the hutch you will have the same problems trying to stabilise the conditions, could you build something solid to add on, at this time you have a basically "open" enclosure because of the screen top...
Have you managed to get the digital hygrometer and Temp-gun, and if yes, what are the readings? I should add that the Temp-gun is likely to be more accurate than a digital hygrometer/thermometer fitted with a probe as far as getting a very accurate basking surface temp goes. I recommend a basking surface temp of around 45c.


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## tayloranne.35 (Dec 16, 2019)

Yes I have gotten the hygrometer and temp gun. And sorry my mistake I was reading from the wrong packaging. The UVB bulb that I have does not admit any heat and is a Exo Terra repti UVB 10.0 compact bulb. The heating bulb is 75 watts. The basking surface is 39 degrees Celsius and the hygrometer reads 60% which I know is far too humid for a shingleback so would you have any tips in decreasing the humidity.


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## murrindindi (Dec 16, 2019)

tayloranne.35 said:


> Yes I have gotten the hygrometer and temp gun. And sorry my mistake I was reading from the wrong packaging. The UVB bulb that I have does not admit any heat and is a Exo Terra repti UVB 10.0 compact bulb. The heating bulb is 75 watts. The basking surface is 39 degrees Celsius and the hygrometer reads 60% which I know is far too humid for a shingleback so would you have any tips in decreasing the humidity.




I think a fluorescent UVB tube would be far more beneficial to the lizard (more money!) it only needs to be around 2/3rds the enclosure length but it would need to be fitted inside (again a solid top will help so much) then you can also fix the heat bulb inside too, it`s very easy to adjust it`s height to adjust the basking surface temp (at present it`s slightly low) could you do that?
This species is common in Melbourne, apart from keeping them I`ve literally seen dozens in the bush and I can assure you the humidity at times reaches or exceeds 60%, although I`m not suggesting it should be that high on a permanent basis. It`s also worth remembering that the retreats they use will normally be higher in humidity which helps them stay hydrated. With the screen top covered the humidity is likely to fall somewhat. Edit: Where did you position the hygrometer? I lost internet connection... I use par 30 or par 38 outdoor halogen bulbs (must be flood beam not spot, the "par"only refers to the bulb face diameter) these can be fitted with a dimmer switch which again makes adjusting the basking surface (and the ambient) temps much easier( or again you can raise/lower the bulb if no dimmer switch) you should be able to get them in Bunnings/eBay/ similar, very cheap but extremely effective.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-CROM...764195&hash=item2a4c4abc82:g:4IkAAOSwPsBa5vw5


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## nuttylizardguy (Dec 16, 2019)

tayloranne.35 said:


> Yes I have gotten the hygrometer and temp gun. And sorry my mistake I was reading from the wrong packaging. The UVB bulb that I have does not admit any heat and is a Exo Terra repti UVB 10.0 compact bulb. The heating bulb is 75 watts. The basking surface is 39 degrees Celsius and the hygrometer reads 60% which I know is far too humid for a shingleback so would you have any tips in decreasing the humidity.


If it's the 26W UVB200, it's a very good COMPACT, I use these in all my tubs for smaller skinks , and rearing tubs for when I have hatchling dragons and baby bluetongues.
I use EXO TERRA NANO- HOODS for my 26W UVB200 globes and set up my basking spots so they are about 20cm from the globe.
This set up is better than using a dome reflector as it spreads the UV out over a longer rectangular beam rather than tight circular beam you will get from a dome reflector. I've a Solarmeter 6.2 and tested this and on a test bench and found this out experimentally.

These 26W UVB200 globes in a NanoHood will cover most of a 120L tub easily.
My 120L tubs are
*Width* 520mm
*Height* 440mm
*Length* 750mm
and very easy to convert to a rearing tub.
If the tank is larger I'd recommend at least a 24W T5 12%UVB tube with either a slip on reflector or a matching reflector hood ( good for a tank about 1.2m long x 0.6m wide. Aim is basking spot about 30cm from the tub.


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