# Beardie Substrates



## Chilali (Nov 22, 2008)

Hi Guys,

At the moment im using newpaper as a substrate for my hatchlings. 

I would like to go with something that looks nice in the enclosure.

Can anyone recommend some good substrates?

Cheers


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## Renagade (Nov 22, 2008)

red desert sand. ive never had any problems with inpaction, i think it looks the best


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## lemonz (Nov 22, 2008)

I heard about the impaction thing, but i thought i would experiment, i know its not the best of ideas, but yeah. i am using red desert sand, have been for like 3 weeks. my hatchies are fine at the moment.


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## gravitation (Nov 22, 2008)

Renagade said:


> red desert sand. ive never had any problems with inpaction, i think it looks the best




Are you all insane? Why would you risk impaction of your beloved beardies?
It can happen, it does happen, quite frequently i might add.

I have lost beardies to impaction a loooooong time ago thanks to moronic herp store clerks that told me yeah yeah it's fine.

DO NOT USE SAND.

Safe, easy options; Newspaper based kitty litter, tiles, and newspaper obviously.
There is a relatively new product that i use made of wood chippings, but it looks like kitty litter.
It's safe and very very good with soaking up smells and moisture, i think it looks good too.

I forget the name of the product but you should be able to get it from most herp stores.
Here is a picture of the substrate.


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## gravitation (Nov 22, 2008)

lemonz said:


> I heard about the impaction thing, but i thought i would experiment, i know its not the best of ideas, but yeah. i am using red desert sand, have been for like 3 weeks. my hatchies are fine at the moment.




Big mistake.

And yeah your hatchies are fine at the moment, i put emphasis on the at the moment part.


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## No-two (Nov 22, 2008)

I've never had any problems what so ever with using sand. I don't keep them anymore but I had them for quiet some time, all were very happy and healthy on sand


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## Marto167 (Nov 22, 2008)

astro turf/fake grass it looks good and its easy to clean


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## SCam (Nov 22, 2008)

Marto167 said:


> astro turf/fake grass it looks good and its easy to clean


 im with marto167, tht stuff is really good looking and its easy to clean as marto167 said


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## Chilali (Nov 22, 2008)

yeah i went with astroturf from bunnings today it looks great and the hatchlings love it - i am not risking my hatchies on the sand espec with impaction.


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## gravitation (Nov 22, 2008)

Chilali said:


> yeah i went with astroturf from bunnings today it looks great and the hatchlings love it - i am not risking my hatchies on the sand espec with impaction.



Thankgod! A smart Beardie owner.


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## funcouple (Nov 22, 2008)

i use sand, but only if their over 6 months old.


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## TRIMACO (Nov 22, 2008)

Fake grass all the way, one in the enclosure one in the wash. I have it in all my enclosures, snakes and lizzys, quick and easy.


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## Renagade (Nov 23, 2008)

each to their own. my little tackers are 8years old. this is a pic of the setup with sand. i'm a big fan of a natural setting.


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## coz666 (Nov 23, 2008)

hatchies we are talking about ?
dont use sand or ground walnut anything small enough to get in their eyes ...will
anything that can stick to their food............... will
art grass is ok but isnt the most hygenic of subs and progressively gets smellier and threads can chewed off.
tiles are great and has the added bonus of keeping claws down
newspaper or butchers or kitchen paper is great for absorbtion
the first signs you will have is either eye probs or mouth probs as impaction starts you will notice sand around the mouth and a reluctance to open mouth even when provoked .
eyes will be stuck together and if you see any of these its really already to late
adults seem to be able to cope fine hatchies are a different ball game.


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## notechistiger (Nov 23, 2008)

I wonder how many people that recommend sand for lizards have actually lost one due to impaction? It's all fine and dandy until your animal dies.


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## dixilizards (Nov 23, 2008)

We have sold many bearded dragons and always recommend that marine carpet, astro turf, newspaper or paper towel to be used particularly for hatchling. 

Many people come to us after buying Bearded Dragons from pet shops that have sadly died due to impaction. 
I have been in pet shops where I have seen hatchling and adult Bearded Dragons eat sand, and even rocks. Normally adult bearded Dragons have the ability to pass whatever they have eaten, though it can also cause them to become sick, hatchlings however do not have the ability to pass clumps of sand or rocks and so care has to be taken, why would we let a silly preventable thing cause such a tragedy??


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## lemonz (Nov 23, 2008)

Everyone has there own opinion. and what happens in the wild? theres a lot more others things that could cause impaction, including the size of there food. theres no need to go off at people just because they use sand, or other small substrates. Yes your giving them advice, but no need to be bitchy. and no, its not worth the risk. But saying that, your risking your own life going out the front door,


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## gravitation (Nov 23, 2008)

lemonz said:


> Everyone has there own opinion. and what happens in the wild? theres a lot more others things that could cause impaction, including the size of there food. theres no need to go off at people just because they use sand, or other small substrates. Yes your giving them advice, but no need to be bitchy. and no, its not worth the risk. But saying that, your risking your own life going out the front door,




Haha yeah but you can hardly compare using sand as your pets substrate to leaving your house.
The point is why would you risk putting your dragon through immense pain plus death all because you want their enclosure to look pretty.

Selfish stupid ignorant thing to do, ESPECIALLY when you are aware of what can result.


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## notechistiger (Nov 23, 2008)

lemonz, do you think that every hatchling in the wild survives until adulthood? No. Many many lizards _die_ in the wild. And, for the record, beardeds don't live on loose beach-like sand in the wild, it's usually compacted.

Also, who cares what happens in the wild? Lizards get run over in the wild. Are you going to put your lizards on the road then speed over them?


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## Kirby (Nov 23, 2008)

red desert sand IS calcium sand. 

one of the worst substrates you could choose, red dune sand isnt even natural, nor is it suitable..


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## bulionz (Nov 23, 2008)

yer ive got central hatchies i just use white sand its better then the red sand and not so dustie i havnt had a problem with it and looks great


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## notechistiger (Nov 23, 2008)

... I reiterate; it's all fine and dandy until your animal dies.


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## gravitation (Nov 23, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> ... I reiterate; it's all fine and dandy until your animal dies.



Got brains.

I don't give a hoot where you all got your sand or what colour it is, it's all dangerous.
And yeah what notechistiger said you gonna lay your beardeds on a freeway?
Wonder if he'll make it? either way you're gambling with the lizards life.


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## lemonz (Nov 24, 2008)

its not a risk, and as i said there before, NO NEED TO BE BITCHY! omfg, everyone. EVERYONE. has there own opinin, not nesecerily going to cause impaction, it may! and, it not risking there life just so your enclusure looks like ****. mine does. but its better, with newpaper and cat litter type things, live food can hide, so in a way its better for more than one way. and i never said that in thw wild, they live all there life. there are numerous problems they can encounter. just like, all im saying is that i havent had any problems, but when people reply with "yet" you dont have to say that. you could just let your opinion come through nicely. im not saying your doing a bad thing by advising us. its a good thing, just the bitchiness bout it. anyway, everyone hadve a great day and enjoy your beardiees!


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## Emzie (Nov 24, 2008)

im not ever going to try sand but it there a substrate that is safe that they can dig in? mine try and dig all the time but they are on newspaper


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## lemonz (Nov 24, 2008)

*bitchyness*



captainpantspie said:


> Haha yeah but you can hardly compare using sand as your pets substrate to leaving your house.
> The point is why would you risk putting your dragon through immense pain plus death all because you want their enclosure to look pretty.
> 
> Selfish stupid ignorant thing to do, ESPECIALLY when you are aware of what can result.


 
so im ignorent selfish and stupid am i? ha. the bitchiness comes out. just be like a normal human being. if its not too much. GET OVER THE FACT THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES! seriously, i can report you to aps for saying that, all over a stupid little reason. the fact that you can be all high and mighty just because you have lost them. and saying you dont care about the ones in the wild that get run over..shows how much you love your beardies.


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## Kirby (Nov 24, 2008)

Lemonz, your the one being rude, agressive, and "bitchy" if anyone is getting reported, it would be you. 

your the one making this agressive, and an arguement. 

it IS possible, and happens very regularly. you should feel lucky if anything. if you dont beleive impation is real or happens, you need more experience in reptiles..


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## Kurama (Nov 24, 2008)

Emzie, a substrate that you can use that enables dragons to dig is breeders choice. I use newspaper with breeders choice on top covering a section of the enclosure.

I have raised many healthy dragons on sand for years, only reason i dont use it anymore is because its messy and harder to keep clean that other substrates.


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## Chris1 (Nov 24, 2008)

red desert sand isnt actually calci sand, the stuff i use is just red sand brought down from teh red centre and bagged,..it can be confusing since u can also get red calci sand,...

i use that fro my adults (the bagged stuff), and they grew up on it as hatchies,..

BUT

to be on the totally safe side i raised my last hatchies on newspaper and moved them to bunnings playsand at around 6 months old.

i recommend newspaper or paper towels, not only because of impaction risks, but little ones poo 2-3 times a day and since they constantly taste their enviroments re-injesting bacteria form pooing on sand can make them sick.

i love a natural setting and my dragons love to dig, so i say bunnings palysand is a good middle ground, very unlikely to impact, looks nice and is great fro digging.

a bigger cause of impactions is incorrect temps, my dragons pass the playsand as granulated as it went in.


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## notechistiger (Nov 24, 2008)

lemonz, I'm sorry, but you're sounding like a complete idiot (not saying you are). Please stop twisting what we're all trying to tell you and _listen_ to us. Why on earth would you want to risk your dragons in_ any way_?

For keepers, it's extremely difficult to diagnose impaction, and by the time you think to take it to the vet, your dragon could be on its last legs. Then, if you and the vet actually do manage to catch it in time, there comes an often dangerous and expensive surgery, and your dragon may not survive that!

Can you definitively say that impaction will never happen to _your_ dragons? No, you can't. UNLESS you eliminate the possibility by not using sand in the first place!

Now, I'm not at all trying to be rude, but you're fifteen. How much experience have you had caring for your dragons? It wasn't a question, because you only got them a little while ago. When you've got older and wiser (which comes with experience) people telling you that you're risking your dragon, and you ignore it, you will have no right to blame anyone but yourself. The term "I told you so" springs to mind.

It's absolutely awesome that you're into reptiles and wanting to look after them, but if you're not prepared to take advice when it's given, then perhaps you should consider another hobby. They have needs. And that's the biggest difference for them living in the wild; we have to provide those needs. If we don't, then they can die. Simple as that.


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## NotoriouS (Nov 24, 2008)

now now settle down kiddies 

I used to have beardies in the past and I kept them on fake grass - very easy to use and looks much better than newspaper. It's easy to clean, looks nice, and no risk of impaction due to it. This argument about using sand is quite repetitive - I personally would not risk it. You have many options available, why choose the doubtful one? But hey, if someone wants to use it, just advise them of the pro and cons of using it and let them get on with it. No point being rude when giving advice - beats the purpose of trying to help someone. 

But yea - I would recommend fake grass. With the little experience that I had with keeping beardies, it worked like a charm. Anyways, best of luck!


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## falconboy (Nov 24, 2008)

The 3 best substrates IMO are tiles, tiles and tiles in that order.


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## CodeRed (Nov 24, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> I wonder how many people that recommend sand for lizards have actually lost one due to impaction? It's all fine and dandy until your animal dies.


 
Ive raised quite a few lawsoni on sand and havent had any problems. Even the hatchlings are fine on sand if you feed them in a bowl.


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## lemonz (Nov 24, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> lemonz, I'm sorry, but you're sounding like a complete idiot (not saying you are). Please stop twisting what we're all trying to tell you and _listen_ to us. Why on earth would you want to risk your dragons in_ any way_?
> 
> For keepers, it's extremely difficult to diagnose impaction, and by the time you think to take it to the vet, your dragon could be on its last legs. Then, if you and the vet actually do manage to catch it in time, there comes an often dangerous and expensive surgery, and your dragon may not survive that!
> 
> ...


 
Just because i am 15 and only got them recently, doesnt mean i am little experienced, my friend ahs been breeding henrilawsonii for years, and ive grown up with them, waiting for the day mum would let me get some of my own. that day came. ive also had blue tongues and geckoes before that. sorry if i came across bitchy, and being hipoctitcle(how ever you spell that) i was just trying to take the advice, but leave it at the same time, and all i was trying to say was that everyone has there opinions. I absolutely love my beardies. i wouldn't risk there saftey for the world, i was just trying to get my point across. sorry for being repetative with this, what should we call it...."debate". Other substrates you coulduse are mulch/bark chips.


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## LullabyLizard (Nov 24, 2008)

Keep with the newspaper


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## benashki (Nov 24, 2008)

:? Im so glad i found this thread..aside from the cat fighting lol..:lol:

I have my beardies on paper towel and am carefully watching temps!! I DID have them on redsand (pet shop bought) yesterday for the travel home.. Im hoping thats ok?...i quickly removed them lastnight after reading these threads.

Is impaction something that happens over time or can i have caused damage already?


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## =bECS= (Nov 24, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> Are you all insane? Why would you risk impaction of your beloved beardies?
> It can happen, it does happen, quite frequently i might add.
> 
> I have lost beardies to impaction a loooooong time ago thanks to moronic herp store clerks that told me yeah yeah it's fine.
> ...



Funny, i recall several occasions where people have had their dragons impacted and sometimes die due to using substrate like yours as well............
At the end of the day its up to the owners what they choose to use, and the safest would have to be either paper towel or newspaper.
Everyone else spouting off about something else being dangerous, then recommending stuff like astroturf etc, all this has the potential to be dangerous as well.

Alot comes down to feeding on the substrate etc........... and if u use astro turf, make sure you have trimmed any loose threads and dusted off any excess grassy bit


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## benashki (Nov 24, 2008)

i was told today that a dish of water may not be safe,and that i should stick to spraying them,and possibly with a little calcium in the water..

With regards to feeding on the substrate,can you elaborate?


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## lemonz (Nov 24, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> Are you all insane? Why would you risk impaction of your beloved beardies?
> It can happen, it does happen, quite frequently i might add.
> 
> I have lost beardies to impaction a loooooong time ago thanks to moronic herp store clerks that told me yeah yeah it's fine.
> ...


 
The picture looks like your beardie is on rabbit pellots


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## CodeRed (Nov 24, 2008)

I feed mine mealworms too.


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## =bECS= (Nov 24, 2008)

benashki said:


> i was told today that a dish of water may not be safe,and that i should stick to spraying them,and possibly with a little calcium in the water..
> 
> With regards to feeding on the substrate,can you elaborate?



Basically if your keeping them on sand, and you feed them in their enclosure, they are more likely to get a mouth full of sand when trying to catch their food.
If you take them out and put them in a tub to feed, with no substrate, they will have no chance of copping that mouth full of sand.
That way no bugs get left inside the enclosure, especially crickets, which can cause damage to your dragons of left in the enclosure also.


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## benashki (Nov 24, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> Basically if your keeping them on sand, and you feed them in their enclosure, they are more likely to get a mouth full of sand when trying to catch their food.
> If you take them out and put them in a tub to feed, with no substrate, they will have no chance of copping that mouth full of sand.
> That way no bugs get left inside the enclosure, especially crickets, which can cause damage to your dragons of left in the enclosure also.


 

Ohhh so i shld remove them from the enclosure to feed? I have them now on paper towels is feeding inside the enclosure still an issue?

How do crickets damage ur beardy if left inside?


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## =bECS= (Nov 24, 2008)

benashki said:


> Ohhh so i shld remove them from the enclosure to feed? I have them now on paper towels is feeding outside the enclosure still an issue?
> 
> How do crickets damage ur beardy if left inside?



Its completely up to you. I prefer to feed outside the enclosure so that there is no food except for greens left in it.

Crickets will feed on your beardie, eating its skin. There have been stories about beardies loosing toes, tail tips and worse from crix being left in the enclosure.


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## lemonz (Nov 24, 2008)

*...*



benashki said:


> Ohhh so i shld remove them from the enclosure to feed? I have them now on paper towels is feeding inside the enclosure still an issue?
> 
> How do crickets damage ur beardy if left inside?


 
they bite them


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## benashki (Nov 24, 2008)

thanks everyone..

i was wondering if anyone has ever used sheets of aquarium backing plastic as a substrate? not that its a substrate as such but a removeable and cleanable flooring.

i saw someone say tiles,and thought the plastic wouldnt feel too much different from that and it would look good on the floor


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## lemonz (Nov 24, 2008)

i dont see why not benashki


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## Reptile_Boy (Nov 24, 2008)

Renagade said:


> red desert sand. ive never had any problems with inpaction, i think it looks the best


 

Yep second that


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## Kirby (Nov 24, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> red desert sand isnt actually calci sand, the stuff i use is just red sand brought down from teh red centre and bagged,..it can be confusing since u can also get red calci sand,...
> 
> i use that fro my adults (the bagged stuff), and they grew up on it as hatchies,..
> 
> ...




red dune sand is calcium based.


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## gravitation (Nov 24, 2008)

lemonz said:


> so im ignorent selfish and stupid am i? ha. the bitchiness comes out. just be like a normal human being. if its not too much. GET OVER THE FACT THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES! seriously, i can report you to aps for saying that, all over a stupid little reason. the fact that you can be all high and mighty just because you have lost them. and saying you dont care about the ones in the wild that get run over..shows how much you love your beardies.




Saying that i don't care about the ones being run over? Ummm I think you really misinterprated what i just said to you, i suppose you are a youngin' or something.

You want your dragons enclosure to look nice, therefore you use sand even though you are aware that they can die from eating it, that son is my point.


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## benashki (Nov 24, 2008)

i was told to spray my beardies with a water bottle with some calcium in it..wat do u guys think?


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## gravitation (Nov 24, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> Funny, i recall several occasions where people have had their dragons impacted and sometimes die due to using substrate like yours as well............
> At the end of the day its up to the owners what they choose to use, and the safest would have to be either paper towel or newspaper.
> Everyone else spouting off about something else being dangerous, then recommending stuff like astroturf etc, all this has the potential to be dangerous as well.
> 
> Alot comes down to feeding on the substrate etc........... and if u use astro turf, make sure you have trimmed any loose threads and dusted off any excess grassy bit




I use newspaper based kitty litter and newspaper/wood chippings based litter, it crumbles when it interacts with moisture.

I've done my research : P

And for the record all my dragons are fed out of their tanks and in a seperate container.


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## gravitation (Nov 24, 2008)

lemonz said:


> The picture looks like your beardie is on rabbit pellots




Like i said, newspaper based kitty litter and newspaper/wood chippings based litter.

It disintergrates when it comes in contact with moisture so they are able to digest it if they should ever eat a piece or two, which they don't or atleast i have never seen it happen.
They can dig in it, it soaks up bad smells and moisture, it stays warm.

Perfect for my children.


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## gravitation (Nov 24, 2008)

Kirby said:


> red dune sand is calcium based.



Yep, it is.


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## LullabyLizard (Nov 24, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *Renagade*
> _red desert sand. ive never had any problems with inpaction, i think it looks the best_





Reptile_Boy said:


> Yep second that



How could you risk the death of your beardie for a nice looking enclosure?


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## =bECS= (Nov 24, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> Like i said, newspaper based kitty litter and newspaper/wood chippings based litter.
> 
> It disintergrates when it comes in contact with moisture so they are able to digest it if they should ever eat a piece or two, which they don't or atleast i have never seen it happen.
> They can dig in it, it soaks up bad smells and moisture, it stays warm.
> ...



The problem with the hard pellet type kitty litter is that it gets bits of plastic and metal mixed and whatever else is along the machines line mixed in. I too have done my research 
A good newspaper based substrate to use is the coles branded kitty litter, i find its softer........ not a compacted pellet, i havent found any other ,materials in it such as plastics and metals (unlike breeders choice and the oz pet litter of whatever it is that pet barn sells at a rediculous price), its cheap and looks just as good.

And wood chippings dont disintegrate 

As for the aquaruim backing that was mentioned, it would be too slippery, especially if it was to get wet.


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## Dave (Nov 24, 2008)

Like what Falconboy said.. top 3 is tile,tile and tile... After you've gone tile you can't go back :lol:  (And personally I don't like any of the woodchips or kitty litter)


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## Chris1 (Nov 25, 2008)

Kirby said:


> red dune sand is calcium based.



in that case i keep mine on evil sand and its fine!


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## Emzie (Nov 25, 2008)

benashki said:


> i was told today that a dish of water may not be safe,and that i should stick to spraying them,and possibly with a little calcium in the water..
> 
> With regards to feeding on the substrate,can you elaborate?


 
ild leave the water dish just fill it up so if your beadie goes in it is able to keep his head above the water 

You can mist if you think there not getting water but if they know how to use a water bowl no need.

I some times spray the greens with water so when they eat they get some water also the greens last a little longer


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## Chris1 (Nov 25, 2008)

u can also drop roaches in the bath wth them, that way they get a big mouthful of water with their insect!


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## Chilali (Nov 25, 2008)

wow this thread turned into a bit of a cat fight.

I have to agree that with brand new baby hatchies i didnt want to risk anything to my little babies and they are on fake turf they love running around on it and it is easy as to clean.

I think i will never risk sand due to impaction issues. 

Each to their own!


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## Fireflyshuffle (Nov 25, 2008)

hey guys, i have the putting turf, (the short flat green stuff) that i wanted to put in my beardies tank and one of my snake tanks.. have you got heat mats or anything under there? i know its silly, but would there be a risk of having heat mats under the turf?(i thought naturally there would, hving that underlayer or rubbery lining) any feedback would be great thanks


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## gravitation (Nov 25, 2008)

shnakey said:


> hey guys, i have the putting turf, (the short flat green stuff) that i wanted to put in my beardies tank and one of my snake tanks.. have you got heat mats or anything under there? i know its silly, but would there be a risk of having heat mats under the turf?(i thought naturally there would, hving that underlayer or rubbery lining) any feedback would be great thanks



I don't think heatmats are very affective.
Beardeds absorb heat through the tops of their heads, when heat is felt on other areas of their bodies they arn't as good at judging when to move away from the heat source.

Stick with lamps and bulbs! : D


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## Fireflyshuffle (Nov 26, 2008)

thanks captainpantspie, i was mainly speaking for the pythons, do you think it will be okay under the grass?


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## bearded_bacon (Nov 29, 2008)

i have half fake grass and half tiles and he loves it...
I was sraying his enclosure to keep the moisture up and i forgot to turn of his lamp and some water got on and it blew.


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## bearded_bacon (Nov 29, 2008)

*careful when spraying*



benashki said:


> i was told today that a dish of water may not be safe,and that i should stick to spraying them,and possibly with a little calcium in the water..
> 
> With regards to feeding on the substrate,can you elaborate?


 when you are spraying the enclosure make sure that you turn the lamp of because mine blew from accidentaly getting water on it


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## Renagade (Nov 29, 2008)

bearded_bacon said:


> i have half fake grass and half tiles and he loves it...
> I was sraying his enclosure to keep the moisture up and i forgot to turn of his lamp and some water got on and it blew.


 
did you shower your beardy in glass?


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## bearded_bacon (Nov 30, 2008)

what do you mean???


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## bearded_bacon (Nov 30, 2008)

one question... how do you bthe your beardie???


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## Australis (Nov 30, 2008)

bearded_bacon said:


> one question... how do you bthe your beardie???



You dont..


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## Australis (Nov 30, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> Are you all insane? Why would you risk impaction of your beloved beardies?
> It can happen, it does happen, quite frequently i might add.
> 
> I have lost beardies to impaction a loooooong time ago thanks to moronic herp store clerks that told me yeah yeah it's fine.
> ...



First of yes, some members are insane.
I don't really care about dragon substrates, ive used sand and paper previously
both had good and bad points..

But i find it weird you suggest paper pellet type substrate as a safe alternative
over sand, it to has its problems.


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## bearded_bacon (Nov 30, 2008)

how do tell the difference between male and female crickets


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## gravitation (Nov 30, 2008)

Australis said:


> First of yes, some members are insane.
> I don't really care about dragon substrates, ive used sand and paper previously
> both had good and bad points..
> 
> ...



Refer to the poll on how many dragons have died of impaction because i have explained my reasoning for using the substrate i do.

Sand is MUCH more problematic than the pellets i use.

and yeah i've sort of realised that alot of members here are more than a sandwich short of a picnic.


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## Australis (Nov 30, 2008)

I don't know of the poll.

Compressed paper pellet type substrates can (and do) expand when ingested
this can be fatal, ive seen it myself... not in bearded dragons, but other lizards
like Bluey's.
Although i have no idea what paper pellets your using etc.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 30, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> I wonder how many people that recommend sand for lizards have actually lost one due to impaction? It's all fine and dandy until your animal dies.


 
I wonder how many people who share your opinion have ever tried sand for themselves, or are they just going on hearsay, with no actual experience on the subject??


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## gravitation (Nov 30, 2008)

Australis said:


> I don't know of the poll.
> 
> Compressed paper pellet type substrates can (and do) expand when ingested
> this can be fatal, ive seen it myself... not in bearded dragons, but other lizards
> ...




They are wood chippings/newspaper litter based pellets, i'm ever so sick of going through this. I've conducted my own experiments to determine whether or not these pellets are safe for my lizards, and i've found them to be problem free, i can imagine they might be more of a problem for blueys as they eat alot differently to beardeds, in my experience beardeds don't munch anything they get there mouths over, they tend to realise when something is too solid or ill tasting.

My pellet substrate broke down and literally crumbled within a day of being in water, it didn't concrete up and forms the same consistency and the actual bearded dragon feeding pellets that i feed my beardies regularly.

I deem them a save option, and i can't say the same about sand.

*exhales* lol


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## LunaLu (Nov 30, 2008)

Go the astro turf my jungle and my Sons' Beardie both have it in their enclosures and both love it.


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## CodeRed (Nov 30, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> They are wood chippings/newspaper litter based pellets, i'm ever so sick of going through this. I've conducted my own experiments to determine whether or not these pellets are safe for my lizards, and i've found them to be problem free, i can imagine they might be more of a problem for blueys as they eat alot differently to beardeds, in my experience beardeds don't munch anything they get there mouths over, they tend to realise when something is too solid or ill tasting.
> 
> My pellet substrate broke down and literally crumbled within a day of being in water, it didn't concrete up and forms the same consistency and the actual bearded dragon feeding pellets that i feed my beardies regularly.
> 
> ...


 
Once more for the dummies ..

Take your little paper pellet and add 2 ml of water not 500 mls and see what happens. Guess what it doesnt break down it just swells up. A beardie isnt capable of producing enough moisture during digestion to disolve a pellet as you incorrectly claim. It will however produce enough moisture to significantly swell the pellet in size. This now creates an obviously dangerous situation. 

If you cant understand that then I give up.


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## gravitation (Nov 30, 2008)

CodeRed said:


> Once more for the dummies ..
> 
> Take your little paper pellet and add 2 ml of water not 500 mls and see what happens. Guess what it doesnt break down it just swells up. A beardie isnt capable of producing enough moisture during digestion to disolve a pellet as you incorrectly claim. It will however produce enough moisture to significantly swell the pellet in size. This now creates an obviously dangerous situation.
> 
> If you cant understand that then I give up.




No not quite as much water, but powerful stomach acids.
And what are you trying to prove? You are keeping your dragons on sand anyways? So obviously you arn't overly concerned about the impaction factor because sand has been proven to be fatal to beardies MANY more times than pellets have, and even then it would'nt have necessarily been the same brand with the same ingredients and to be honest i have never witnessed a case of impaction caused by pellets, only sand.

I'm done arguing with morons.

and for the third time they are not souly paper based.


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## Australis (Nov 30, 2008)

At least sand doesn't increase in size when ingested.. 
Adding wood or what ever the hell else is on those 
pellets doesn't make them sound any better..ha
Your wrong x 4 .. and im done arguing with Mexicans.


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## gravitation (Nov 30, 2008)

Australis said:


> At least sand doesn't increase in size when ingested..
> Adding wood or what ever the hell else is on those
> pellets doesn't make them sound any better..ha
> Your wrong x 4 .. and im done arguing with Mexicans.




Mexicans? What the hell kind of insult is that? 
Sand concretes and forms one giant mass depending on how much the dragon has swallowed.
These pellets swell yes and when they do they begin to crumble, particles break off therefore making the pellet SMALLER in size.

Again, you guys are arguing that my substrate is dangerous? But i don't see why? You are both using the most lethal of substrates? What exactly is your point?


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## benashki (Nov 30, 2008)

i have actually used the pellets that captainpantspie uses ( i think). Its a wood type kitty litter.

I used mine however in my rats cages. What i found is that is dissinegrates very quickly when exposed to water. I didnt really like it for this reason..made cage cleaning harder for me.

Either way..i am too paranoid to use anything other than papertowel for the beardies


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## notechistiger (Nov 30, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> I wonder how many people who share your opinion have ever tried sand for themselves, or are they just going on hearsay, with no actual experience on the subject??



What kind of experience? Dead dragons? I'm choosing not to expose my animals to something that could potentially kill them. Also, I _have_ tried sand, but with snakes. I concluded that it was dusty, annoying for the animal and difficult to clean. I then thought of how my dragon likes to lick things, and decided that it wasn't worth the death of my beloved pet to make his enclosure look good.


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## Ishah (Dec 1, 2008)

It's a funny insult! thats what it is IMO! pissed myself when I read it... 
How long have you been using these pellets for exactly? Do you have a science degree and have you run extensive experiments on more than 10 beardies with paper, wood pellets and paper pellets and other various substrates? And have you done this from birth of the beardies to a significant age/length of time say 5 or so years to thoroughly conclude your findings? And done this under the close supervision of a highly experienced respectable scientist? Or are you one yourself? I highly doubt it! I may seem to be overexaggerating with that, but its nothing different to what you have been doing the whole time  Just putting it into a language you are more familiar with pantspie 

Also, you may not have experienced impaction via your method of substrate for various different reason, i.e. they haven't eaten enough of it, may not have been cold enough, you may not have been using it for a long enough period of time etc etc etc. These are probably the same reasons why some haven't experienced problems with sand as a substrate! 

Also, a day to break down? Thats insane and IMO enough time to cause impaction if in the right circumstances...Although I have never been fortunate to experience it myself, nor have I shoved a camera thingo down their throats to monitor the breakdown process of the pellet... (So somebody with experience in impaction correct me if I'm wrong on the time it takes to get impacted...) have you? doubt it... If you had forced one or two down thier throat then a gastroscope or whatever they're called down their throats to monitor and film it, maybe your argument wouldn't be so unbelievable...I personally would love to know the REAL results of this instead of your assumptions and backyard experimenting with more water than would be in a beardie's stomach and no stomach fluids the key to conducting a proper experiment to show similar results to what would really happen, is to replicate as best you can, the environment and ingredients that your beardie actually is in and is eating etc etc...Something no average backyard scientist can do. 

Why not just let them use what they use and you use what you use... and just accept it! There really isnt anything you can do to change their minds and obviously nothing they can do to change ur opinion... I personally think they are both just as bad as each other and prefer the use of newspaper... something I know for a fact they wont ingest! Why not try newspaper? or do you have some other random reason why its bad and will cause impaction? Forgive me if you havent stated your reasons previously, you HAVE been on a mad rampage on your high horse for the majority of this thread, and it has somewhat melded into a big blubbering blur to me.

Oh and incase you haven't observed it, beardies DO tend to taste a lot of their surroundings and when they are trying to get a cricket, like with sand, they can miss and get a mouthful of pellets! they may try to spit them all out, but some will still be ingested... I know this as my stupid brother uses petstore-bought plantation soil and wood chips and sand and all sorts of random substrates, much to my discust and objection... Yet he still has never once had a problem, except for dirty muddy beardies and blueys... Doesn't do much for my side ot the argument with him, but I can't stop him, so just deal with it as, eventually one will die on him for it and then I prove my case, but until then.... I just don't think about it... People, much like yourself panstpie, are very stubborn and somewhat ignorant at times, just accept that both sides are just as much as each other and deal with it...


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## Ishah (Dec 1, 2008)

One more thing, I personally think that the fake grass/astroturf looks pretty tacky and very fake, but each to their own I guess  I'd rather the newspaper substrate for ease of cleaning and then make it look more natural with real branches, logs, rocks and for my own personal touch, old cows bones... I think that really puts an edge on it! All steralised for days on end before introduced to my beardies of course! I think the bones are great! Really hold the heat and gives it a nice feel to the whole "aura" of the enclosure!


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## Dave (Dec 1, 2008)

Ishah said:


> It's a funny insult! thats what it is IMO! pissed myself when I read it...
> How long have you been using these pellets for exactly? Do you have a science degree and have you run extensive experiments on more than 10 beardies with paper, wood pellets and paper pellets and other various substrates? And have you done this from birth of the beardies to a significant age/length of time say 5 or so years to thoroughly conclude your findings? And done this under the close supervision of a highly experienced respectable scientist? Or are you one yourself? I highly doubt it! I may seem to be overexaggerating with that, but its nothing different to what you have been doing the whole time  Just putting it into a language you are more familiar with pantspie
> 
> Also, you may not have experienced impaction via your method of substrate for various different reason, i.e. they haven't eaten enough of it, may not have been cold enough, you may not have been using it for a long enough period of time etc etc etc. These are probably the same reasons why some haven't experienced problems with sand as a substrate!
> ...



Does that make the others ignorant too then? Tiles are better then newspaper too. Who would use anything else when tiles is everything you need :lol:

Pro's:
Wears nails down naturally
insecsts can't hide
holds heat well
looks good (you can get brown/sandy coloured tiles if you want it to look 'natural'
CAN'T cause impaction :lol:
Easy to clean (take the tile out thats been soiled.. give it a wash etc place it back)
Lasts along time...

Con:
Costs more then newspaper


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## falconboy (Dec 1, 2008)

Why don't you all just change to tiles and stop arguing.


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## Ishah (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave94 said:


> Does that make the others ignorant too then? Tiles are better then newspaper too. Who would use anything else when tiles is everything you need :lol:
> 
> Pro's:
> Wears nails down naturally
> ...


 
I was more referring to the apparent main debate, that being "sand vs wood or paper pellets" And just used *one *example of a more "neutral*" substrate, like newspaper, papertowel,and like you said tiles... Sorry I didn't list them all out....There are still probably many others ("neutral" substrates) that I have forgot to mention, but you get the idea don't you?

*Neutral meaning its not paper/woodchips or sand - the two that are being debated to death - And its hardly dangerous/less dangerous than most other substrates... But of course everyone is going to have a different opinion on what constitutes a "safe" substrate, as can already be seen in this thread


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## the.badger (Dec 1, 2008)

Yeah I'll be using tiles when we get our first beardie. But if you want something cheap that looks a bit better than newspaper, try using butchers paper. It's a sandy brown colour and looks a bit more natural than newspaper, and it costs bugger all.


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## =bECS= (Dec 1, 2008)

Australis said:


> At least sand doesn't increase in size when ingested..
> Adding wood or what ever the hell else is on those
> pellets doesn't make them sound any better..ha
> Your wrong x 4 .. and im done arguing with Mexicans.




LMFAO @ the last line :lol:


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## Australis (Dec 1, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> Mexicans? What the hell kind of insult is that?



The spicy kind i believe.



captainpantspie said:


> Again, you guys are arguing that my substrate is dangerous? But i don't see why? You are both using the most lethal of substrates? What exactly is your point?



I haven't used sand for a long time, just newspaper for me, easier to keep clean.
I'm honestly not that interested in your substrate, its just your so down on sand
being dangerous, but you use expanding pellets.. .which i personally have seen
kill Lizards, albeit not Dragons.. but lizards all the same... both have mouths and
stomachs, thought it might be worth mentioning.. no worries.

Have fun with your Beardies.. etc

Cheers,
Matt.


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## Ishah (Dec 1, 2008)

Australis said:


> The spicy kind i believe.


 

ROFPMSL! Thats gold! I thought just the mexican part was funny, but thats just awesome! never thought of that...


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## gravitation (Dec 1, 2008)

See that's the thing, the topic of conversation wasn't 'sand vs pellets', it was whether or not sand can impact and kill a bearded which it can, i can seen no evidence of pellets doing so and if i had i probably would'nt be using them.

When i first started up i was using sand as told by a few storeclerks, started learning more, lost one dragon to impaction and i switched to newspaper, i had my beardies on newspaper for years. I started breeding and looked for something the dragons could nest and dig in, came across these pellets, successfully has many of my beardeds on this substrate for what would be over four-five years now with no mishaps

I also got given a rescue beardie and within about five days it was dead, two necropsys on both beardeds proved sand was the culprit. (and the rescue beardie was on newspaper as soon as i got it) He had many baths and laxatives, nothing worked.

I NEVER said they can't cause impaction (though i have seen NO evidence of it) but it's ALOT less likely than with sand.
No i'm not a scientist Ishah just a curious human being with alot of experience below her belt.

I've covered the whole licking and tasting the enclosure thing on another thread.
Sand particles get stuck to the saliva on the tongue of the lizard, it either gradually swallows more and more and the sand sits at the bass of the stomach, or it chomps up one lot of sand that eventually kills it. 
The pellets are too solid and too heavy to be picked up simply by licking, i've observed it many times and they don't come off the ground, like i said i have only ever had one issue when my oldest bearded picked up a piece a long with carot my sister dropped onto the enclosure floor, she immediately spat it out and i'm assuming it was because it was too solid and didn't taste very nice.

and i don't feed in the enclosure at all.

I've seen various x-rays and necropsys done on beardeds and i've only ever seen sand impaction cases, and one bearded that had swallowed a toy soldier.


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## Ishah (Dec 1, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> See that's the thing, *the topic of conversation wasn't 'sand vs pellets', it was whether or not sand can impact and kill a bearded which it can*, i can seen no evidence of pellets doing so and if i had i probably would'nt be using them.
> 
> When i first started up i was using sand as told by a few storeclerks, started learning more, lost one dragon to impaction and i switched to newspaper, i had my beardies on newspaper for years. I started breeding and looked for something the dragons could nest and dig in, came across these pellets, successfully has many of my beardeds on this substrate for what would be over four-five years now with no mishaps
> 
> ...


 
Maybe so, maybe not... but maybe we are just shedding light on some other things that can also cause impaction... Its all helpful tips none-the-less.

Bahahaha now that right there is one of the funniest things I have read when the person is trying to be 100% serious! Thanks for the laughs, its been fun! 

Yes and both you and I have covered the missing food and getting a mouthful of substrate or substrate sticking to food items part... Think about it for a second will you? And howcan you be so sure it didnt inges a coule of pellets even though the main food item was spat out? you cant unless you dissected it then and there!

Does that make you feel special and like you know more than the rest of us? Because I'm sure that there are others on here that have witnessed similar if not more than you... Some are actually vets and do it on a semi-regular basis... Also, as I am aware, the wood pellets are relatively new to the use as substrate also would imagine pellets to be also, as I have not seen breeders choice and the like in supermarkets etc for that long... i.e. more that 5 or so years... and the amount of people that use pellets over other substrates wouldnt be very high i would imagine, so hence Of COURSE you wouldnt have seen many instances of pellet induced impaction! Also, you do know that breeders choice regularly has bits of plastic scattered throughout the whole bag of pellets dont you? I use it for my rats and I sometimes pick it all out as it can bug me at times. Not saying thats the brand you said you used, but it is stll a paper based pellet... and others might take your wacky advice not knowing of this fact and find themselves in some strife, so just clearing that up...

And I hghly doubt the pellets are too solid and too heavy to be picked up...also I thought you mentioned in a previous post that they arent too solid and dissintergrate very quickly??? Bit of a contradiction doncha think?

If you've personally witnessed a beardy die from swallowing a toy soldier, which is MUCH bigger than a single pellet... then what makes you sooo certain that they cant swallow more than one pellet and die from that? I'm sure both pellets and toy soldiers would have a similar distasteful factor about them, I might have to go try it sometime to confirm my assumptions tho to satisfy your urge to get another thing under your belt :lol: If I lick em and they both taste bad, you will have to take it out from under your belt as it would prove useless in ur next argument/debate.

Anyways some very amusing points you raised there... great laugh factor... thanks for that!


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## Ishah (Dec 1, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> See that's the thing, the topic of conversation wasn't 'sand vs pellets', it was whether or not sand can impact and kill a bearded


 
Just one more thing, sorry to be knit-picky here.. but the actual ORIGINAL question was.... as quoted...... da-da-da daaaaaaaaa.... Drum roll please......BAM! and the dirt is gone! (some might say:lol



Chilali said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> At the moment im using newpaper as a substrate for my hatchlings.
> 
> ...


 
As you will notice the main question was asking for recommendations for GOOD substrates to use and we are just pointing out some bad points for your suggested substrates and other substrates, as you are doing with the sand and newspaper suggestion, although i personally dont see the problem with using newspaper, definately nowhere NEAR as many problems as sand and pellets, but if they want something other than newspaper, like others suggested which i deem as safe, butchers paper or tiles sounds like a good alternative

Not once did it say in the original post, "does/can sand cause impaction (and ultimately death)?" because DUH! most people know there is an obvious risk! Maybe thats not the post you were on about, but how can you expect anyone to remember when its gone this way and that so many times over the last few days... hard to keep up with ya!

And there you have it folks just another example of how napisan does the job better! :lol::lol::lol: 

Sorry kinda getting carried away in my own random laughable thoughts which is what thinking of you brings to mind Thanks

(Damn infomercials getting in my head again)


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## =bECS= (Dec 1, 2008)

Ishah said:


> Just one more thing, sorry to be nit-picky here.. but the actual ORIGINAL question was.... as quoted...... da-da-da daaaaaaaaa.... Drum roll please......BAM! and the dirt is gone! (some might say:lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol, you can be the next demtel guy/girl errrrr :lol: 

But wait , theres still more, ill thrown in a set of steak knives for dissecting absolutely free!
(see your not the only on thats in a late night dilerium, now if we can just sneak in a Pro Active and Ab Pro advert i think we will have late night infomercials covered )

Oh and at the end of the day, you choose what substrate you like, but everyone likes a good debate, i guess thats why this thread is still open!


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## Ishah (Dec 1, 2008)

Bahahahahahaha for sure becs! "When I was a teen, my face looked like a peperoni pizza with extra cheese, then one of my friends suggested Pro-Activ, I was a bit dubious at first, as I had tried everything - BELIEVE me! But since trying Pro-Activ, I can go out and party like Jessica simpson and pull as many guys as Paris! So get your order of pro-active today... and if you call now you get this free "I'm not a pizza face anymore thanks to pro-activ" bumper sticker along with a badge and pencil case and ..... Don't forget the 60day money back guarantee! 

And bloody ab-pro/king what a joke! Gotta love our latenight lives!
....Although.,... Easy-off bam, and napisan oxyaction plus is a daytime ad...:? Haha not to mention the doco commentary "*as you can see*... the lion takes its cub in its mouth and launches it off the cliff when its not behaving..."

Indeed good entertainment value it has been...


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## =bECS= (Dec 1, 2008)

Ishah said:


> Bahahahahahaha for sure becs! "When I was a teen, my face looked like a peperoni pizza with extra cheese, then one of my friends suggested Pro-Activ, I was a bit dubious at first, as I had tried everything - BELIEVE me! But since trying Pro-Activ, I can go out and party like Jessica simpson and pull as many guys as Paris! So get your order of pro-active today... and if you call now you get this free "I'm not a pizza face anymore thanks to pro-activ" bumper sticker along with a badge and pencil case and ..... Don't forget the 60day money back guarantee!
> 
> And bloody ab-pro/king what a joke! Gotta love our latenight lives!
> 
> Indeed good entertainment value it has been...



Hahahaha, you know the scripts too well! The p diddy one cracks me up, although this thread has been more entertaining.
I used to use sand, but i stopped because it was messy, got smelly if they crapped and i wasnt home and kept getting caught in the glass tracks.

Then breeders choice till i started finding the plastic and metal bits in it.

Now i use whatevers handy at the time, be it paper or uncompressed paper litter, etc
Im not a fan of tiles, i found that if i wasnt around to catch them crapping, they walked through it and it ended up all over the place as there is nothing to absorb the liquid on tiles.


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Dec 1, 2008)

Hey guys, I hear newspaper is the best, but what if your beardies love to dig?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 1, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> What kind of experience? Dead dragons? I'm choosing not to expose my animals to something that could potentially kill them. Also, I _have_ tried sand, but with snakes. I concluded that it was dusty, annoying for the animal and difficult to clean. I then thought of how my dragon likes to lick things, and decided that it wasn't worth the death of my beloved pet to make his enclosure look good.


 
Thanks for clearing that up, so you have absolutley no experience with sand and compaction yet you still preach........


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## shamous1 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Sand*

I have bred many CBD's over the past couple of years. I always use news paper when they are under 6 months old.

Sure in the wild they don't have the luxury of newspaper but impaction will certainly take care of a fair number of a clutch. Survival of the fittest I guess.

It's not worth the risk in captive bred hatchies. Just my opinion. Why take the chance in having part of your collection die?

I have even had a 3 year old suffer impaction so it can and will happen.


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## bearded_bacon (Dec 1, 2008)

*stop it*



captainpantspie said:


> See that's the thing, the topic of conversation wasn't 'sand vs pellets', it was whether or not sand can impact and kill a bearded which it can, i can seen no evidence of pellets doing so and if i had i probably would'nt be using them.
> 
> When i first started up i was using sand as told by a few storeclerks, started learning more, lost one dragon to impaction and i switched to newspaper, i had my beardies on newspaper for years. I started breeding and looked for something the dragons could nest and dig in, came across these pellets, successfully has many of my beardeds on this substrate for what would be over four-five years now with no mishaps
> 
> ...


 why are you so damn mean to every one you argue the point all the time wich sucks and the topic of this thread was what is a good thing to put on the bottom of the beardies enclosure so why don't you be quiet stop being so nasty towards everyone:evil:


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## the.badger (Dec 1, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> just a curious human being with alot of experience below her belt.



HAHAHAHAHAH that sounds so wrong.


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## merdelhuck (Apr 13, 2009)

i know sand can cause impactation but i have used red desert sand for years with no problems..i just feed my beardy outside of his cage


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## beefa270 (May 8, 2009)

I am in the process of getting some beardies and am setting up their enclosure as we speak, and hell no I am not using sand !!


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## beefa270 (May 8, 2009)

Ishah said:


> One more thing, I personally think that the fake grass/astroturf looks pretty tacky and very fake, but each to their own I guess  I'd rather the newspaper substrate for ease of cleaning and then make it look more natural with real branches, logs, rocks and for my own personal touch, old cows bones... I think that really puts an edge on it! All steralised for days on end before introduced to my beardies of course! I think the bones are great! Really hold the heat and gives it a nice feel to the whole "aura" of the enclosure!




I love that idea !!!!


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## notechistiger (May 8, 2009)

junglepython2 said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, so you have absolutley no experience with sand and compaction yet you still preach........



I preach because I know it can happen, and new keepers shouldn't expose their dragons to something that can kill them until they can recognise the signs of a sick dragon. I have no problem with keepers using sand if they know what they're doing.





merdelhuck said:


> i know sand can cause impactation but i have used red desert sand for years with no problems..i just feed my beardy outside of his cage



I find that hard to believe, since you only got your first dragon a couple of weeks ago. At least try to keep your lies consistent, huh?


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## Australis (May 8, 2009)

the.badger said:


> HAHAHAHAHAH that sounds so wrong.



lol


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