# Opinions on hybridization



## Sam123 (Jul 15, 2016)

Hi everyone, I know this is a very touchy subject from scrolling through old threads on the forums, and banter will probably start up during this thread. Anyways, what is everyone's opinions on hybridization between different species and subspecies? I know from looking through old threads that some people hated them and some people loved them. I want to see if anyone's opinion on them has changed and to see if any of the new members have any opinions on them. 
I myself am rather neutral on this subject, even though I like "pure" snakes better I do not hate hybrids

Kind regards
-Sam 
P.S also please keep personal attacks out of this thread 
Thanks!


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## pinefamily (Jul 15, 2016)

I think opinions will have to change with recent DNA results, and future DNA testing.


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## Iguana (Jul 15, 2016)

I think a Hybrid can provide the best (if bred well) of both species, same as selective breading in dogs and such, a good combo of genetics can provide a great animal. But that being said, it's always great to see a nice healthy 'pure' reptile.


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## SKYWLKR (Jul 15, 2016)

I look forward to the day when the price and value of pure animals will over take the prices of hybrid in the future. Stray too far away from pure lines and the investment and interest will fall....


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## vampstorso (Jul 15, 2016)

Domestic Dog breeds are the same species, not hybrids.


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## pinefamily (Jul 16, 2016)

Some good points here. [MENTION=42227]SKYWLKR[/MENTION], I hope it doesn't get like overseas with designer snakes. Pure breeds are almost an anomaly there, especially our Australian species. [MENTION=27447]vampstorso[/MENTION], that's what I was referring to above. New DNA research seems to point to more commonality than previously thought. Size and colour variations could just be locality driven.

I'm a purist myself.


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## Wally (Jul 16, 2016)

SKYWLKR said:


> I look forward to the day when the price and value of pure animals will over take the prices of hybrid in the future. Stray too far away from pure lines and the investment and interest will fall....



How many can honestly say and prove they have pure lines? Those people are around, but are few and far between these days in the sellers market.


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## pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2016)

Hybridisation and mixing regional variations (such as the Carpets) has probably done more damage to the long-term viability of the "industry" than any other single factor in its decline over the past 5 years or so. If you are a purist (like me) there is virtually no way of obtaining known provenance stock unless you know it came from the wild, or it came from wild-caught parents. The competitive striving for "the prettiest snake on the block" simply on the basis of appearance seems vacuous to me, given that there is far more of interest to these fascinating animals than appearance alone. I'm happy to acknowledge that there are some spectacular human fabrications, especially in the python world, but there's no way I'd ever be interested in owning one. I'd much rather encounter outstanding examples of local animals such as the Carpets & Diamonds any day than some trumped-up human creation cooked up in someone's snake room solely with profit in mind.

Jamie


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## Wally (Jul 16, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> Hybridisation and mixing regional variations (such as the Carpets) has probably done more damage to the long-term viability of the "industry" than any other single factor in its decline over the past 5 years or so. If you are a purist (like me) there is virtually no way of obtaining known provenance stock unless you know it came from the wild, or it came from wild-caught parents. The competitive striving for "the prettiest snake on the block" simply on the basis of appearance seems vacuous to me, given that there is far more of interest to these fascinating animals than appearance alone. I'm happy to acknowledge that there are some spectacular human fabrications, especially in the python world, but there's no way I'd ever be interested in owning one. I'd much rather encounter outstanding examples of local animals such as the Carpets & Diamonds any day than some trumped-up human creation cooked up in someone's snake room solely with profit in mind.
> 
> Jamie



All of those things were going to drive an explosion in the market of reptile keeping Jamie. It never eventuated. As some of us suspected and voiced, much to the chagrin of those eager to cash in!


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2016)

Wally said:


> All of those things were going to drive an explosion in the market of reptile keeping Jamie. It never eventuated. As some of us suspected and voiced, much to the chagrin of those eager to cash in!



Wally, I really don't think it's so much for the money, no one pays big bucks for snakes any more, no matter what they look like. Also, the "creators" never sell their best, they keep it for future breeding, sometimes right up till their monsters don't reproduce any more or the egg and neonate mortality is so high, it's not worth continuing. More than anything else, it's an obsession with creativity "look what I can do" kind of thing.
At the risk of being flamed (what's new?) I say that these people had very limited knowledge about reptiles generally, not to mention their natural history and ecology, many have never seen a snake in the bush ..... nor they have any interest in such. And then come the pet owners ..... I say no more.

Jamie, there are pure lines out there but breeders seldom advertise them because they bring even less money that the "creations". I used to say "the hobby is heading in the wrong direction', now I am saying "it's already there". LOL But the tables will turn, either naturally or by the wildlife authorities ....... they are concerned, make no mistake.


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## Wally (Jul 16, 2016)

Waterrat said:


> Wally, I really don't think it's so much for the money, no one pays big bucks for snakes any more, no matter what they look like. Also, the "creators" never sell their best, they keep it for future breeding, sometimes right up till their monsters don't reproduce any more or the egg and neonate mortality is so high, it's not worth continuing. More than anything else, it's an obsession with creativity "look what I can do" kind of thing.
> At the risk of being flamed (what's new?) I say that these people had very limited knowledge about reptiles generally, not to mention their natural history and ecology, many have never seen a snake in the bush ..... nor they have any interest in such. And then come the pet owners ..... I say no more.
> 
> Jamie, there are pure lines out there but breeders seldom advertise them because they bring even less money that the "creations". I used to say "the hobby is heading in the wrong direction', now I am saying "it's already there". LOL But the tables will turn, either naturally or by the wildlife authorities ....... they are concerned, make no mistake.



People were paying big bucks not that long ago for snakes when they sensed a change in market perceptions of what was acceptable in the sellers market. High end gamble that hasn't payed off in my opinion.


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## SKYWLKR (Jul 16, 2016)

Unless you go out and harvest pythons from their natural wild habitat and successfully breed them, there is no way of knowing if the animals are "pure form" or not. Don't get me wrong, I love looking at the hybrid "contraptions" that people breed and create but my heart lies with purity... because without those of us whom prefer keeping and breeding the "natural" specimens to keep the gene pool as pure as possible.... in 20 years from now there will be no such thing.


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## Wally (Jul 16, 2016)

SKYWLKR said:


> Unless you go out and harvest pythons from their natural wild habitat and successfully breed them, there is no way of knowing if the animals are "pure form" or not. Don't get me wrong, I love looking at the hybrid "contraptions" that people breed and create but my heart lies with purity... because without those of us whom prefer keeping and breeding the "natural" specimens to keep the gene pool as pure as possible.... in 20 years from now there will be no such thing.



Are you a keeper of WA pythons? Because that's about where we are at.


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2016)

In time, we have to start lobbying for permits to take limited numbers of certain species from the wild to acquire pure lines and to refresh the gene pool of existing captive locality lines. It's just a dream now but it will be a dream forever if the morphers keep on stuffing up natural forms. On another note - what is considered to be a pure line in this hobby?


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## Ramsayi (Jul 16, 2016)

SKYWLKR said:


> Unless you go out and harvest pythons from their natural wild habitat and successfully breed them, there is no way of knowing if the animals are "pure form" or not. in 20 years from now there will be no such thing.



Not quite true.
All my animals are pure without doubt.

If I am still breeding pythons for another 20 years then they will be pure as well.I have zero interest in mongrels as do a lot of other keepers that I know.

People mixing types together do so with the hope of producing something totally different.In the vast majority of those produced they tend to be nothing special at all and compared to pures are miles inferior looks wise.


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## Sam123 (Jul 16, 2016)

I know i have already voice my opinion when I posted this thread, but it has changed a little bit. I can see why people would want to own a snake that is a hybrid, but for me personally the beauty of pure animals is unbeatable, I even favor the "wild" coloring's. Don't get me wrong, I love myself snakes that have amazing colors, but I like them more if those colors are found in the wild. I do have a question however, would a albino animal be a hybrid or a morph? sorry i advance if that is a stupid question. 
Kind regards
-Sam


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2016)

Sam, albino is a mutation. Naturally occurring although very rare in the wild.


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## Nero Egernia (Jul 16, 2016)

My opinion is probably of little importance as I haven't been in the reptile hobby for long and I only keep reptiles because I enjoy it (if not a little obsessed). I don't keep and breed them to support a business. My stance is somewhat neutral. I don't hate the "hybrids", nor do I love them. Although, I won't deny that there are some stunning "hybrid" animals out there. Some of the colours and patterns that are produced are very beautiful, and I don't see why it's such a problem if people breed their captive reptiles that way as they are intended to remain in captivity forever to be pets and nothing more. They're not a part of a conservation project. Breeding for interesting colours and patterns is also fine, unless if it compromises the animal's health.

I don't particularly agree with interbreeding species, and, depending on the circumstances, I don't particularly agree with interbreeding subspecies. However, if the two subspecies are known to naturally interbreed with each other in the wild then I'm OK with that. 

I myself would prefer to keep "pure" animals of similar localities as then I can determine what they might face in the wild and therefore what conditions they would be able to cope with in captivity. I myself would never knowingly interbreed species and subspecies together, but that's just me. But the point is probably moot, as the majority of my animals are wild caught. 

But on the point of locality specific animals, what is it that some people are drawn to? Colour? Size? Behaviour? Climate? For example I was drawn to the South West (Perth) _Varanus tristis tristis_ because they live in a climate similar to mine and I remember seeing them throughout my childhood.


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## Wally (Jul 16, 2016)

Ramsayi said:


> Not quite true.
> All my animals are pure without doubt.
> 
> If I am still breeding pythons for another 20 years then they will be pure as well.I have zero interest in mongrels as do a lot of other keepers that I know.
> ...




I'll like that even though I know you hate it.


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## pinefamily (Jul 16, 2016)

The very first albino, a Darwin or North western, was found in the wild at a caravan park near Darwin I believe. 

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## GBWhite (Jul 16, 2016)

Personally, as far as producing colour morphs (be they a snake of lizard) goes I don't care what keepers do with their animals. After all herpetoculture is just a hobby and as such it must be expected that people are going to mix and match animals in an attempt to produce more spectacular, aesthetically pleasing variations. Some no doubt for profit, others for no more than an interest.

The hobby has gone far beyond keeping reptiles in the context of herpetology. It appears to me that the market of late seems to be more in line with the pet industry these days and as such people who are only interested in maintaining a pet snake are going to go for the more spectacular looking animals be they a nice looking python, bearded dragon, bluetongue or wherever their interest lies.

As far as breeding snakes goes, from experience (be they pythons, colubrids or vens) it also appears to me that those who want to keep "pure" lines prefer the more spectacular looking snakes from a specific location in preference to the less attractive animals that occur within the same habitat, so couldn't that, in a way, be considered as selectively breeding snakes? 

As far as "Carpet" Pythons go, I don't think creating colour morphs is going to have any detrimental long term effect on the gene pool. I've said it so often before and will say it again, it's pretty obvious to me that other than naturally occurring colour variations (which I'll add I believe is dictated by the extensive environments and micro habitats they inhabit) the Morelia spilota group are all the same snake that possess the unique ability to produce colour variations as a natural survival technique. I also believe that this is what makes them so attractive to keepers who want to mix and match.

For many, many reasons, unless, for whatever reason, a private keeper is selected to participate in a specific breeding program, it will never be the intention of the authorities to allow privately captive bred snakes to be released into the wild. So in all reality be they snakes that appear consistent in looks to with those that occur in their natural habitat or selected colour morphs (or designer snakes as some refer to them) it comes down to want the hobbyist wants to own.

George.


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## pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2016)

Damn, just when a juicy thread comes up I have to get dinner and organise food for lunch guests tomorrow!

I'll be back...

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Jul 16, 2016)

Well said George, it's true that it will never be the intention of the authorities to allow privately captive bred snakes to be released into the wild, but the authorities are concerned about accidental or deliberate releases. Sunshinevirus springs to mind.

I don't hate morphs and hybrids, I just worry that one day the wildlife authorities will say enough is enough (Jags spring to mind ;-)) and WE ALL shell face the consequences. Call it a self-preservation if you like but that's my concern. I always considered myself to be a custodian of our wildlife, never the "owner" and it will never change.

cheers
Michael


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## Wally (Jul 16, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> Damn, just when a juicy thread comes up I have to get dinner and organise food for lunch guests tomorrow!
> 
> I'll be back...
> 
> Jamie



Already done. Very prompt my local Chinese take away.


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## BredliFreak (Jul 16, 2016)

I can't believe I missed this banter. Welp, better start a ******fight now.

IMO I think that as long as their are enough of each carpet keepers with their own knack (whether it be morphs, line breeding, cross-breeding or locale pure animals) I couldn't give less of a crap. Personally I like Locale specific animals and Pure morphs (e.g albino darwins, pure jungle Zebs etc.) but some of those jags and hybrids sure are stunning (ShaunMorelia's Hypo Bredli Caramel Jags) and I wouldn't mind owning some, though I wouldn't breed them. As much as I like Pure animals, at the end of the day does it really matter if all our carpets are a bit mixed (unless diseases and deformations are involved, that's another ranty paragraph that will be rewritten like 7 times due to timing out)? Some of you complain about breeding for looks/specific animals or breeding animals for money, but are "purists" any better? Caring only about "natural animals", just as others only care about "designer animals". Why do we even keep snakes? For the looks? Surely not, otherwise we would be huge hypocrites. We keep it because we are passionate about them (most of us anyways) and if how something looks or which square metre of land it comes from matters that much then I doubt your passion.

*WHOOOOOOOOO IM DONE, FOR NOW*


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## SKYWLKR (Jul 16, 2016)

Wally said:


> Are you a keeper of WA pythons? Because that's about where we are at.



No not at present. Have been though.



Ramsayi said:


> Not quite true.
> All my animals are pure without doubt.
> 
> If I am still breeding pythons for another 20 years then they will be pure as well.I have zero interest in mongrels as do a lot of other keepers that I know.
> ...



I agree with you there. My point I was trying to make was said in a generalized way however what you've stated is specifically informative.



pinefamily said:


> The very first albino, a Darwin or North western, was found in the wild at a caravan park near Darwin I believe.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk



From all accounts and research, yes it was "Blondie". But before that I was aware years ago of sightings of 'white snakes' around the Mount Glorious and Clear Mountain regions in Queensland back in the mid 80's.


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## Bushfire (Jul 16, 2016)

Personally I would never say privately held captive bred reptiles would never become part of a conservation project. That may be the commonly held position now but things change. It will depend on how iconic the species is to the public and how important its ecological function is to a system. 

Old world ecological thinking is more frequently challenged and labeled backward as new ideas surface and experimented. A good example of this is more and more translocations are happening and rewilding theories played with. Marla from Alice springs have been released into NSW and WA. Eastern quolls from tassie released in ACT and NSW. Bilbies from QLD sent to SW WA. Previously these ideas were rubbished but at some point someone must have thought we just have to use what we got, it wasn't ideal but it's either that or nothing.

i would agree it would be hard to foresee beardeds or childreni getting a call up but maybe not that far fetched that others like roughies or pelli's might one day. To be honest more breeding programs should include a private capacity within it. Especially so when funding levels have paved the way to debate about what species will we save and which ones we let become extinct.


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## Waterrat (Jul 17, 2016)

BredliFreak, it's a pity that you treat this debate as a "******* fight". People here expressed their opinion just like you did, is there a need for hostility?


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## pinefamily (Jul 17, 2016)

Wally said:


> Already done. Very prompt my local Chinese take away.



Hot dog with the lot at the footy was good! 

- - - Updated - - -



Waterrat said:


> BredliFreak, it's a pity that you treat this debate as a "******* fight". People here expressed their opinion just like you did, is there a need for hostility?


 [MENTION=20031]Waterrat[/MENTION], I'd like to think BredliFreak was being tongue in cheek. That's how I took his comment. I might be wrong.


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## BredliFreak (Jul 17, 2016)

@Waterrat piney nailed it, just having a bit of a sarcastic joke/making fun of a previous thread that I won't mention to avoid the forum equivalent of a Vietnam flashback :lol:


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## pythoninfinite (Jul 17, 2016)

The biggest problem with captive breeding and release into the wild with reptiles is that, generally, the primary reason for their status to change from "safe" to threatened with (local) extinction is habitat damage or loss. Mammals are more mobile and can move over some distance to at least mitigate the threats posed by localised development, but reptiles are cryptic animals that probably don't move much locally from where they were born. If suitable habitat is constantly being destroyed, there won't be anywhere to release them. Without any actual research or facts to back me up, I would say that habitat destruction affects everything, predation by cats & foxes affects everything (especially small mammals & birds, but reptiles too), but by virtue of their cryptic colouration and secretive habits, reptiles can hold out for longer... until their habitat is physically changed or totally destroyed.

Interesting discussion on Radio National the other night about how the loss of so many small mammals (species and numbers) is drastically changing the nature of the soils in the entire country, with much reduced soil turnover from small surface diggers. Way off topic I know, but it just shows how the environment is changing before our very eyes, and in ways that we could never have foreseen... 

Jamie


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