# GTP thoughts



## Greenmad (Jan 11, 2010)

What are peoples thoughts on the way GTP's are going, they are getting cheaper by the day.
Do people prefer aussies, international or morphs.
Im just curious on what others thinks.


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## Kurto (Jan 11, 2010)

I prefer Aussies, but they are still expensive. That extra a couple of thousand is still a big difference for most to fork over. 

Still, there are some nice GTP's going around at some damn good price's.


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## bfg23 (Jan 11, 2010)

I am not really fussed where they come from.
I just like the species as a whole, and cant wait to add one to my collection.
I am on the fence about the price situation. Too cheap and you will get 'beginners' starting to purchase them, too expensive and no-one wants to fork out the money for one.


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## Greenmad (Jan 11, 2010)

Kurto said:


> I prefer Aussies, but they are still expensive. That extra a couple of thousand is still a big difference for most to fork over.
> 
> Still, there are some nice GTP's going around at some damn good price's.



i agree with you there kurto the auusies are a stunning python and it is worth the extra buck


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## JasonL (Jan 11, 2010)

Aussies easily..


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## Lewy (Jan 11, 2010)

Aussie Aussie Aussie!!!


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## Costa (Jan 11, 2010)

Oi Oi Oi!!!
my dream
not until im more experienced though and til i move out


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## Serpentes (Jan 11, 2010)

Any locality-specific line. Since there are two reproductively isolated species of green python I would hate to own hybrids with fertility issues, so it's locality-specific or nada.


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## Poggle (Jan 11, 2010)

Aussies for sure.... beautiful snakes... STUNNING... but im kinda a elapid fan and small python fan, but they r definately a nice snake


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

Do a google on Kofiau canary chondro.


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## Poggle (Jan 11, 2010)

sounds risky lol ( what your doing over the canary) and yeah they are nice ey


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## Greenmad (Jan 11, 2010)

ill have to agree to that the canary chondro if a stunner


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## JasonL (Jan 11, 2010)

nah, blue/green aussie over a yellow one anyday...


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## bk201 (Jan 11, 2010)

a blue python who could pass that up either way the aussie greens with the white stripes are stunning cant wait till i can get one.


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

As a breeder of natives, I will refrain from any comments .... but I would like to say this:
Last year, the general perception was that 'everybody breeds greens now','there will be plenty more next year' etc., etc..
Where are those big breeders who flooded the market last year? Where are they this year? It's January and GTPs should be well and truly out of their eggs. I find it very peculiar.


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## Mayhem (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> As a breeder of natives, I will refrain from any comments .... but I would like to say this:
> Last year, the general perception was that 'everybody breeds greens now','there will be plenty more next year' etc., etc..
> Where are those big breeders who flooded the market last year? Where are they this year? It's January and GTPs should be well and truly out of their eggs. I find it very peculiar.



So true - I've held off so far purchasing an Native GTP because I was waiting to see what this season brought, in regards to market numbers and prices, but its oddly quiet so far.


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## solar 17 (Jan 11, 2010)

*Breeding greens*

* "WATERRAT' if l am one of those suspicous breeders you are referring to , mine all sold again [a lot pre-ordered], a couple of hold- backs and the rest repeat sales a clutch only goes so far....cheers solar 17 [Baden]*


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## URS (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> As a breeder of natives, I will refrain from any comments .... but I would like to say this:
> Last year, the general perception was that 'everybody breeds greens now','there will be plenty more next year' etc., etc..
> Where are those big breeders who flooded the market last year? Where are they this year? It's January and GTPs should be well and truly out of their eggs. I find it very peculiar.



Waterrat was a later season this year, will be plenty available shortly and even Better prices than last year.
I won’t list them until feed correctly and that’s just about now stay tune.

Regards URS


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## Kurto (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> As a breeder of natives, I will refrain from any comments .... but I would like to say this:
> Last year, the general perception was that 'everybody breeds greens now','there will be plenty more next year' etc., etc..
> Where are those big breeders who flooded the market last year? Where are they this year? It's January and GTPs should be well and truly out of their eggs. I find it very peculiar.




You just have to know where to look!


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

solar 17 said:


> * "WATERRAT' if l am one of those suspicous breeders you are referring to , mine all sold again [a lot pre-ordered], a couple of hold- backs and the rest repeat sales a clutch only goes so far....cheers solar 17 [Baden]*




lol. No suspicions mate, certainly not about you - just a quiet observation.


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## kupper (Jan 11, 2010)

Victoria has definatly dried up


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## solar 17 (Jan 11, 2010)

*"stunning aussies"*

*You had to be quicker than greased lightning for those Aussies that are around that have really no "Sorong" type colouring [black] on their tales or faded [blue] spinal smudging, apart from the white dorsal dotting,....cheers solar 17 [Baden]* ....*Those available may well be Aussies, but it leaves relying on the* *sellers say so and as there have been retractions in the past and well in the end its your choice and your money.....*


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 11, 2010)

Aussie line chondro on herptrader fed 15 times, 1500 each or cheaper if you buy more

I think there will be room for locale and morph chondros in the future, just look at some of the screamers on maxwells book, canary, blue, green, red, marroon, ect endless potential.......


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## Jumala (Jan 11, 2010)

Aussies all the way ....... still have a lot of saving to do before I can get any. Too many other projects atm lol


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## -Matt- (Jan 11, 2010)

moreliainsanity said:


> Aussie line chondro on herptrader fed 15 times, 1500 each or cheaper if you buy more


 
Also saw that...born in October and starting to turn green already 


I prefer Aussie greens over any of the others....not saying that I wouldnt own the other lines though. But personally I think the non-natives are becoming too cheap now (but thats supply and demand I guess).


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

Never, ever have I seen native hatchlings changing colour before 8 months of age.
Hemens line does not necessarily mean pure ausie line, he bred natives X PNG some years ago. I think it's a common knowledge. 
I am not saying the ad is misleading but it's absolutely extraordinary for 3-4 months old natives to go green and to be big enough to feed on small rats.


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> Also saw that...born in October and starting to turn green already
> 
> 
> I prefer Aussie greens over any of the others....not saying that I wouldnt own the other lines though. But personally I think the non-natives are becoming too cheap now (but thats supply and demand I guess).



ALot of people say stuff like this (just look at this thread) but i wonder how many people claiming they prefer one locality over the other could identify the different races of adult chondros. I'm tipping not many.


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## solar 17 (Jan 11, 2010)

*Big greens*



Mattsnake said:


> Also saw that...born in October and starting to turn green already
> 
> 
> I prefer Aussie greens over any of the others....not saying that I wouldnt own the other lines though. But personally I think the non-natives are becoming too cheap now (but thats supply and demand I guess).


 
*GEE WIZZ...l must be slow or something.....mine are [7-8] months old before l switch to day old pinkie rats and 90-100 grams, l mean the majority are born around 10 grams [+/-] 2grams with Waterrats getting up to 15 grams and for those unfamiliar they are about the same size as a newborn spotted/ childrens/stimmie.....cheers solar 17 [Baden]* ...*ps l am* *referring to those on Herptrader that Mattsnake is referring to as well....*


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## Kurto (Jan 11, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> ALot of people say stuff like this (just look at this thread) but i wonder how many people claiming they prefer one locality over the other could identify the different races of adult chondros. I'm tipping not many.



Especially in Aust. Most of the localities are fairly muddled up.

I'm just happy to be able to keep a couple of these amazing critters!


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

Kurto said:


> Especially in Aust. Most of the localities are fairly muddled up.
> 
> I'm just happy to be able to keep a couple of these amazing critters!



Most of non-native GTPs in Australia were captive bred either in Asian snake farms or in US or Europian collections. Some illegal collecting of wild GTPs still goes on in parts of PNG, West Papua, even Biak but those snakes are on order from US herpers (specialists) who finance the collectors. The snakes are not cheap, even on the US market. So, if you can buy a "pure Biak chondro" for 2K in Australia, you would be naive to believe that it is from a pure line. Best you can say it's a Biak type and hope that future generations won't show any genetic contamination from different locality races.


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## deebo (Jan 11, 2010)

I definitely would like to own pure aussie ones and think that those lines should be kept clean but would also like to own some of the non native as well, especially red babies......

As long as they are advertised for what they are its all good. The prices on the non natives are also coming down which is good for the average joe. The aussies have dropped but are still probably a bit out of reach for a lot people, not saying they are overpriced though.

Just my 2 cents,
Dave


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## -Matt- (Jan 11, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> ALot of people say stuff like this (just look at this thread) but i wonder how many people claiming they prefer one locality over the other could identify the different races of adult chondros. I'm tipping not many.


 
I'll put up my hand and say that I couldnt tell the adults of the different races apart. Id just prefer to own a true Australian native animal...but if I was given an adult animal and told it was native even though it wasnt I wouldnt know the difference (unless of course it had strong Biak or Sorong traits) - but then whos to say that Im even capable of picking up on those traits?


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## cris (Jan 11, 2010)

Greenmad said:


> What are peoples thoughts on the way GTP's are going, they are getting cheaper by the day.
> Do people prefer aussies, international or morphs.
> Im just curious on what others thinks.



I think most(not all) of them are illegal and are way over priced, the massive price encourages illegal importation that risks bringing in more viruses etc. no better than keeping many other illegal exotics IMO, just you are unlikely to get caught.

Natives are obviously differant as they arnt likely to be imported, but some are even crossing them with exotics for a quick buck 

With some exceptions i see GTP's as a very dodgy part of herp keeping in Australia.


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## smeejason (Jan 11, 2010)

Aussies look the best 
and why aren't you at work Ryan:shock: saw your mates at swanbank bored cause you had the truck at home 
obviously the question of which green is better kept you up all night and made you sick with worry :lol::lol:


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## Greenmad (Jan 11, 2010)

lol not all night 




smeejason said:


> Aussies look the best
> and why aren't you at work Ryan:shock: saw your mates at swanbank bored cause you had the truck at home
> obviously the question of which green is better kept you up all night and made you sick with worry :lol::lol:


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

cris said:


> I think most(not all) of them are illegal and are way over priced, the massive price encourages illegal importation that risks bringing in more viruses etc. no better than keeping many other illegal exotics IMO, just you are unlikely to get caught.
> 
> Natives are obviously differant as they arnt likely to be imported, but some are even crossing them with exotics for a quick buck
> 
> With some exceptions i see GTP's as a very dodgy part of herp keeping in Australia.




It gets me every time someone states that GTPs are overpriced.
Tell us cris, how much money do you have in your pocket to buy a GTP? If you had thousand bucks, would you spend it on a GTP? How much would you pay for one right now? 
My feeling (supported by evidence) is that those complaining about the price are not even in the market for a GTP. 
Looking forward to your reply.


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## Greenmad (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> It gets me every time someone states that GTPs are overpriced.
> Tell us cris, how much money do you have in your pocket to buy a GTP? If you had thousand bucks, would you spend it on a GTP? How much would you pay for one right now?
> My feeling (supported by evidence) is that those complaining about the price are not even in the market for a GTP.
> Looking forward to your reply.



well said


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> It gets me every time someone states that GTPs are overpriced.
> Tell us cris, how much money do you have in your pocket to buy a GTP? If you had thousand bucks, would you spend it on a GTP? How much would you pay for one right now?
> My feeling (supported by evidence) is that those complaining about the price are not even in the market for a GTP.
> Looking forward to your reply.



I recon i would pay about $500 for a chondro. 

I could afford to buy several of them even when they were at a sillier price but i don't think they are worth that money. I think alot of people feel the same way but they spend the money on them because they see the potential $$$ in them.

In short, people aren't buying them because they like them they are buying them as an investment.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 11, 2010)

Not necessarily true.Wanting to buy aussie greens is one thing,finding them is another.Proof of origin is the stumbling block for me as I have found the best I can hope for is the word of the seller.I am not taking a swipe at anyone in particular,it's genuinely what I have found.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 11, 2010)

Considering the amount it actually costs to breed them, yes they are over priced imo then again so are Amyae, Apsers etc


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## petpages (Jan 11, 2010)

Actually Adrian Hemens was the ORIGINAL breeder of the Australian Native line. While he did produce a mixed clutch 3 or 4 years ago these were NEVER sold as natives nor did they look like natives. He has bred PURE natives every year since 2005 and this year produced the very first F2 babies. So Hemens line DOES mean pure aussie. Before waterrat states that Hemens lines are not pure he should remember that ALL his original animals came from Hemens and therefore he is casting doubt on his own snakes. 



Waterrat said:


> Never, ever have I seen native hatchlings changing colour before 8 months of age.
> Hemens line does not necessarily mean pure ausie line, he bred natives X PNG some years ago. I think it's a common knowledge.
> I am not saying the ad is misleading but it's absolutely extraordinary for 3-4 months old natives to go green and to be big enough to feed on small rats.


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## Mr.James (Jan 11, 2010)

Will they drop?

The problem is someone buys a pair of reptiles which are hard to get at the time with a huge price tag, does all the ground work, successfully breeds them, then sells the offspring at a fair but high price. Then the next person figures they've just spent all this money on purchasing & raising them and years later breeds them to make there money back...for the love and the money. Then you have people who spend big and breed for a quick buck. We all know they are out there. Then you have some who would genuinely do anything just to have one as a pet & look for nothing else than the privilege to be a proud keeper of such a wonderful reptile.(not to mention give everything to own one) In the middle you have original breeders of the wild caughts, who are still steering the bus and we need them to keep people honest, share there knowledge. With such a high demand for them and they are obviously selling, where in there can you find the answer that leads anyone to think that someone will drop the prices right down..? 

(sorry if that doesn't make sense..LOL just needed to vent some...)

I just see the market flattening out at around $1500. But who knows.

Everyone always wants what they cant have & cant afford... I know I sure do.. But I don't see Ferrari's dropping down to $50,000


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## Ramsayi (Jan 11, 2010)

petpages said:


> Actually Adrian Hemens was the ORIGINAL breeder of the Australian Native line. While he did produce a mixed clutch 3 or 4 years ago these were NEVER sold as natives nor did they look like natives. He has bred PURE natives every year since 2005 and this year produced the very first F2 babies. So Hemens line DOES mean pure aussie. Before waterrat states that Hemens lines are not pure he should remember that ALL his original animals came from Hemens and therefore he is casting doubt on his own snakes.



Who is petpages and what if any affiliation has he with Hemens?


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## cris (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> It gets me every time someone states that GTPs are overpriced.
> Tell us cris, how much money do you have in your pocket to buy a GTP? If you had thousand bucks, would you spend it on a GTP? How much would you pay for one right now?
> My feeling (supported by evidence) is that those complaining about the price are not even in the market for a GTP.
> Looking forward to your reply.



The average illegal exotic GTP IMO is worth less than $500(some are still paying up to $5000 for nothing special). Im quite happy to wait until they are what i consider to be a fair price or i can swap them for common tree snakes.

You are free to charge what you want, but selling imports for massive prices encourages smuggling and they are mostly illegal anyway. Natives are differant, as i said above and i dont see high prices as causing any major problems.

I would admit though i genreally dont like the idea of high prices on reptiles. It promotes reptile breeding as a profit making exercise rather than something done because of an interest in the animals themselves.

At the end of the day its just my opinion and it counts for very little. Also if i was breeding them i would sell them for the same prices others do, even though i think its over priced the massive profit would outweigh any moral insentive to sell them cheaper.

That said they are pretty cool pythons and well suited to nice display enclosures.


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## Mr.James (Jan 11, 2010)

cris said:


> I would admit though i genreally dont like the idea of high prices on reptiles. It promotes reptile breeding as a profit making exercise rather than something done because of an interest in the animals themselves.
> 
> At the end of the day its just my opinion and it counts for very little. Also if i was breeding them i would sell them for the same prices others do, even though i think its over priced the massive profit would outweigh any moral insentive to sell them cheaper.
> 
> That said they are pretty cool pythons and well suited to nice display enclosures.



Exactly..so you don't like the high prices on reptiles but you'd sell them for the going price? That's what I mean people shouldn't be critics cause they would be doing the same thing if they had the opportunity.


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## Costa (Jan 11, 2010)

cris said:


> The average illegal exotic GTP IMO is worth less than $500(some are still paying up to $5000 for nothing special). Im quite happy to wait until they are what i consider to be a fair price or i can swap them for common tree snakes.
> 
> You are free to charge what you want, but selling imports for massive prices encourages smuggling and they are mostly illegal anyway. Natives are differant, as i said above and i dont see high prices as causing any major problems.
> 
> ...


 
my thoughts exactly


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

petpages said:


> Actually Adrian Hemens was the ORIGINAL breeder of the Australian Native line. While he did produce a mixed clutch 3 or 4 years ago these were NEVER sold as natives nor did they look like natives. He has bred PURE natives every year since 2005 and this year produced the very first F2 babies. So Hemens line DOES mean pure aussie. Before waterrat states that Hemens lines are not pure he should remember that ALL his original animals came from Hemens and therefore he is casting doubt on his own snakes.




Please read properly before you reply.
I have never said that Adrian sold those X snakes as natives. I know he didn't but at least one of the buyers implied that that they were sold to him as natives. No flies on Adrian. The juveniles from the mixed clutch DID look like natives and IF they ended up in the hands of unscrupulous breeders, their progeny may well be passed on as natives. I am not stating that "Hemens lines are not pure", I merely said that "not necessarily all" of his lines were pure natives. I don't take his credits away from him for his breeding success but I know personally at least two other people who bred pure natives well before him and the progeny from those snakes is still around.
I hope this clears it up Adrian.

cheers
Michael


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## petpages (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sorry ! let me introduce myself. Petpages IS Adrian Hemens..... and while I have never before joined any forum, I thought it was about time I did...if only to defend myself !

I have bred greens every year since 2001.... a lot longer than some other 'experts' 




Ramsayi said:


> Who is petpages and what if any affiliation has he with Hemens?


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## Mayhem (Jan 11, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I recon i would pay about $500 for a chondro.
> 
> I could afford to buy several of them even when they were at a sillier price but i don't think they are worth that money. I think alot of people feel the same way but they spend the money on them because they see the potential $$$ in them.
> 
> In short, people aren't buying them because they like them they are buying them as an investment.



Disagree completely - I have absoloutely no intention of breeding my GTP's and its sooo far from an investment! My only reason for concern with the rapidly decreasing price is the factor of "why buy one now for $xxxx when you can buy one in a just few more months for $yyyy". Its not because I have interest in long term investment rather than plain old and simple, wanting to save myself some money.


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

Jimmy27 said:


> Exactly..so you don't like the high prices on reptiles but you'd sell them for the going price? That's what I mean people shouldn't be critics cause they would be doing the same thing if they had the opportunity.



No one that i can see here is being critical. We don't think they are worth that money so we wont pay it.


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

Mayhem said:


> Disagree completely - I have absoloutely no intention of breeding my GTP's and its sooo far from an investment! My only reason for concern with the rapidly decreasing price is the factor of "why buy one now for $xxxx when you can buy one in a just few more months for $yyyy". Its not because I have interest in long term investment rather than plain old and simple, wanting to save myself some money.



So you think everyone is in the exact same mind frame as you claim to be?


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## Mayhem (Jan 11, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> So you think everyone is in the exact same mind frame as you claim to be?



No, but from your initial statement you implied that everyone is in a mind frame that I am not in.


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## petpages (Jan 11, 2010)

yes, its true that Rob Bredl bred native green pythons at Cardwell in 1989. I personally saw some offspring in 1990 at the park at Cardwell. Two of those offspring were still alive and in the hands of a South Australian dealer at least until recently but they were never successfully bred and are over 20 years old now...if they are indeed still alive. The next successful breeding was by me in 2005. 



Waterrat said:


> Please read properly before you reply.
> I have never said that Adrian sold those X snakes as natives. I know he didn't but at least one of the buyers implied that that they were sold to him as natives. No flies on Adrian. The juveniles from the mixed clutch DID look like natives and IF they ended up in the hands of unscrupulous breeders, their progeny may well be passed on as natives. I am not stating that "Hemens lines are not pure", I merely said that "not necessarily all" of his lines were pure natives. I don't take his credits away from him for his breeding success but I know personally at least two other people who bred pure natives well before him and the progeny from those snakes is still around.
> I hope this clears it up Adrian.
> 
> ...


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

Rightio, i didn't intend that implication and i tried to make that clear. I didn't mean all i meant alot. 



Mayhem said:


> No, but from your initial statement you implied that everyone is in a mind frame that I am not in.


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## solar 17 (Jan 11, 2010)

*Greens and choices*

*Peoples choices are their own choices l unashamedly love greens and can.t get enough of them as they are different but if everybody thought like me it would be boring as sh** what l think the people on this forum/website have to do is appreciate other peoples diversities without bagging them into the ground and then being defensive when people take a swipe at them.....remember folks a fruit salad is plane when its full of bananas...cheers solar 17 [Baden]*


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

petpages said:


> yes, its true that Rob Bredl bred native green pythons at Cardwell in 1989. I personally saw some offspring in 1990 at the park at Cardwell. Two of those offspring were still alive and in the hands of a South Australian dealer at least until recently but they were never successfully bred and are over 20 years old now...if they are indeed still alive. The next successful breeding was by me in 2005.




There were others too but I don't think it's appropriate to name them without their consent.
Anyway, is this some contest about who was first?
Since I got involved in this project I relentlessly defended and promoted native GTPs, shared my experiences with other in literature and forums and don't feel that I need to defend myself now. It was a long rocky road without help from anybody to build up some reputation - like it or leave it!


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

solar 17 said:


> *Peoples choices are their own choices l unashamedly love greens and can.t get enough of them as they are different but if everybody thought like me it would be boring as sh** what l think the people on this forum/website have to do is appreciate other peoples diversities without bagging them into the ground and then being defensive when people take a swipe at them.....remember folks a fruit salad is plane when its full of bananas...cheers solar 17 [Baden]*



What Baden says is very true. A salad can be very boring but with a little imagination and some spontenaety a salad can become a work of art. Beleive it or not i have discussed this before.... http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat-39/names-and-faces-119103/page-75 check it out for yourself if you don't beleive me.


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## kkjkdt1 (Jan 11, 2010)

*gtp*

id be happy with either(would prefere aussie).
when i can afford one i will be the proud owner of a gtp, people will pay what they are happy with.


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## flavirufus (Jan 11, 2010)

Aussies are definitely my favourites. I'm biased though, as I keep and breed Aussie GTPs, and, well, I'm Australian! Guess I'm a bit patriotic  But seriously, they do have to be one of the prettiest GTPs. The white vertebral stripe is just speccy. I was a bit worried when I first bred my Aussies, as I'd heard of and seen other 'Aussie' lineages that didn't all develop good vertebral stripes. I was pretty amazed to see all of my hatchlings emerging from the egg with a clear vertebral stripe already!! I don't know of any other GTP locality that shows the adult pattern as hatchlings like these seem to do. Love them!


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## Waterrat (Jan 11, 2010)

flavirufus said:


> Aussies are definitely my favourites. I'm biased though, as I keep and breed Aussie GTPs, and, well, I'm Australian! Guess I'm a bit patriotic  But seriously, they do have to be one of the prettiest GTPs. The white vertebral stripe is just speccy. I was a bit worried when I first bred my Aussies, as I'd heard of and seen other 'Aussie' lineages that didn't all develop good vertebral stripes. I was pretty amazed to see all of my hatchlings emerging from the egg with a clear vertebral stripe already!! I don't know of any other GTP locality that shows the adult pattern as hatchlings like these seem to do. Love them!



Spectacular and unusual. Did all the hatchlings end up with a solid line or just some? Did the parents have solid line?
This is quite something, perhaps even unique - It's generally understood that captive bred natives have reduced white markings. Some believe that it's genetic, lack of UV, diet, etc.. You may be onto something - please tell us more.


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## Serpentes (Jan 11, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> There were others too but I don't think it's appropriate to name them without their consent.
> Anyway, is this some contest about who was first?



I can vouch for at least one of these others who kept and bred them with great success. And if they parts of this read this thread I'm sure they'd have a good giggle :lol:

Can anyone clear up this white vertebral stripe thing with natives? Is it true that they all have an reasonably unbroken vertebral line? I don't have field experience with the species so I don't know. I thought it is variable and not a morphological distinction in the Aussie clade? But sometimes seeing can be better than reading!

EDIT: That's very funny, what just popped up above this post while I was typing!


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2010)

before I start an all out war here I'd just like to be clear im not refering to anyone inparticular iv just noticed that over the years the price of natives has remained fairly high, where the price of mixed blood GTP's has droped quite a bit and now EVERYONE wants one! yet crossing a carpet from prossipine with one from tully would be catastrophic! 
why do people suddenly get a change of heart with greens????


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## deebo (Jan 11, 2010)

farma - i think its just that nobody really knows locales with the greens to start with.....


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## ZK928 (Jan 11, 2010)

yeh aussie snakes are my favourite


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## Serpentes (Jan 11, 2010)

David Evans said:


> farma - i think its just that nobody really knows locales with the greens to start with.....


Certain breeders do know. They keep this to themselves, as common sense would dictate. It's a matter of getting to know your breeder, and those seeking regional lines seem to be getting rarer. There is no reason to disbelieve the purity of some lines of snakes from Australia such as those bred by Waterrat, but I don't know of any locality-specific lines from other regions. 

I'd love to know what is out there kept quiet in the world of green pythons.


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## deebo (Jan 11, 2010)

serpentes - my "nobody knows" was a rather large generalisation and as you say im sure there are known lines out there. I would have thought that your average joe with a GTP only knows thats its a GTP and thats about all. Might be able to say it looks like a sorong or merauke etc.....The aussie gtps would probably have to be the most reputable/trustworthy lines - as long as you buy from the right people that is.

I would have thought some people would look at what the yanks have achieved with designer gtps and would be hoping to achieve similar results by mixing bloodlines.

Dave


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## levis04 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think this will be a sad yr for the greens, aussie or not they will still fall in price again. What is a pure Aussie hatchling worth as i would not know?


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## scorps (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah I will most likely buy greens this year, but will hold out until a few more clutches become available


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## Serpentes (Jan 11, 2010)

Dave you are right, they are mostly mongrel things, of unknown or anecdotal lineage. I wouldn't like to start a breeding program with the vast majority of GTP's in Australia. This is especially so now that we know of the two different species, northern and southern, still unnamed. But there are some great rarities out there, just hard to find!


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## BROWNS (Jan 11, 2010)

I've noticed there seems to be quite a bit of variation amongst the Aussies,Ithink most people have an image in their mind the true Aussies all look like the ones Flavirufus posted but they can have touches of blue as well as not having the vertebral stripe just a few white spots here and there.The other night there was a doco with David Williams in it showing what he's working on with freeze dried antivenom for Papuan Taipans as well as Papuan adders which are tiny,whilst searching the roads for adders they found a green crossingthe road which had a head injury of some sort but looked exactly like the image most have in their mind as to what a pure Australian Green Tree Pythons all look like.I spoke to a guy who knows people doing research with Aussies trying to find the answers to many of the questions etc in this thread and one Aussie green collected or chipped apparently had mostly blue on one side and green the other side.Most will probably say where's the pics for proof etc but surely seeing the massive variety and diversity just within the morelia sp complex,is it that hard to believe greens would also have variations to what most people think Aussie greens all look like.

There needs to be a lot more research done for us to learn more about this lovely species as many have been seen and/or found outside of their supposed natural rrange and there's a couple of isolated populations of greens with most research being conducted in only one locality from Iron Range,the other locality I have drawn a complete blank as to the locality name.

I saw the adult animals that Bredl collected and their offspring which at the time I could have got them at a great price which at the time was ridiculously expensive to me till I got right into the hobby and now wouldn't hesitate to pay twice that price for a smoking hot pair of jungles.


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## Serpentes (Jan 11, 2010)

There are three populations of green pythons in Australia, the northernmost one is isolated from the other two, but they appear to all belong to the same species as those from southern PNG (currently called the "southern GTP"). No morphological and ecological research has been done on the northernmost population due to extreme logistical constraints and lack of funding.

There is colour variation in some Morelias, but don't forget ones like M. kinghorni which are quite similar throughout their large range. GTP's don't actually belong in Morelia, but in a separate genus with "M. carinata". Regardless of their taxonomy, I have seen little bits of blue flushing on the tail end of some Australian green pythons I have seen photographed in the wild. Without seeing them in the wild in decent numbers myself, I can't comment with any accuracy- I still like talking about them though


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## BROWNS (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah I actually meant it to compare the carpet variation with greens meaning all carpets have huge variation so why wouldn't there be variation with Aussie greens is what I was getting at.I had no idea there's 3 isolated populations/localities Without divulging too much info where approx is the 3rd localitry or general area ?The reason I ask without giving too much info is it just puts or gives another location for the unscrupulous peoples shopping list.I'm sure that many people had lost greens yet they were still in the books encouraging wild collecting to replace animals that died etc.I wouldn't be at all surprised that many more ppl have True pure Aussies than it is thought.

I saw the copy of a permit to collect 2 greens postedby waterrat and am just wondering how or why the authorities let one person to legally catch wild greens?Why one person and nobody else.How would you go about trying to get such a permit as I know damn well if I applied for a collectors permit I would not get one so again why one person and nbody else,what makes them so special?I've heard animals can be caught for research purposes however these are being commercially bred and sold at big bucks so again why would the authorities in this field basically give someone a licence to print money.

I also find it appaling that one very well known people amogst the first to breed greens in Oz had them confiscated only to be given to other people and now most of what was confiscated all weent overseas a couple of years ago after Irwin ended up with them.That bloodline other than 100% true Aussies was named to be the safest line around because it's where Southern Meruka greens in PNG are so closely related to our Natives and the bloodline was dna tested and then termed "deemed Aussie greens" which is actually one of the more common lines now in he hobby which many many people have profitted from yet poor old Bob B had all his confiscated.

I'm sure Bob Whitey was given pure Aussies from Bredl which Bob then bred succesfully only to have all of his greens confiscated also only to get 2 back,one was his own animal the other below a average looking malnutritioned PNG animal.As many others have said why if so many people claim to be purists especially people who want/keep and breed pure locality animals with carpets or antaresia for example,why would they and how do they justify their purist values yet will drop their standards to keep/breed and/or sell exotic greens which to me is no different to being illegal to keep any other exotic animals such as corns,balls,boas etc etc 

One of the prettiest greens to me are the canary or lemon greens,they're absolutely spectacular!!!!


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2010)

BROWNS said:


> I saw the copy of a permit to collect 2 greens postedby waterrat and am just wondering how or why the authorities let one person to legally catch wild greens?Why one person and nobody else.How would you go about trying to get such a permit as I know damn well if I applied for a collectors permit I would not get one so again why one person and nbody else,what makes them so special?I've heard animals can be caught for research purposes however these are being commercially bred and sold at big bucks so again why would the authorities in this field basically give someone a licence to print money.



It is who you know as much as what you know. I have been a nominee on a take permit and they are impossible to get for most people but for some people they seem almost too easy.


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## JasonL (Jan 12, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> My feeling (supported by evidence) is that those complaining about the price are not even in the market for a GTP.
> .



I would agree with that, by saying I think they are or were very overpriced, but thats just my opinion on what I would pay, many people would pay much more than I am willing, thus they are only worth what people are willing to pay.... the most I have ever spent on a herp was $900 for an adult snake.... yes I am a cheapskate with herps , happy to spend 2k on a dog.. but not a reptile..


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## cris (Jan 12, 2010)

JasonL said:


> I would agree with that, by saying I think they are or were very overpriced, but thats just my opinion on what I would pay, many people would pay much more than I am willing, thus they are only worth what people are willing to pay.... the most I have ever spent on a herp was $900 for an adult snake.... yes I am a cheapskate with herps , happy to spend 2k on a dog.. but not a reptile..



I would agree, only im probably more of a cheapskate :lol: I would only pay more than $1000 for something like legal oenpelli rock pythons,_ L.o.barroni _or possibly those green or black tree monitors.


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## JasonL (Jan 12, 2010)

cris said:


> I would agree, only im probably more of a cheapskate :lol: I would only pay more than $1000 for something like legal oenpelli rock pythons,_ L.o.barroni _or possibly those green or black tree monitors.



I think we are peas in a pod, maybe we should start our own syndicate, pool our money and and buy one GTP?


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## D3pro (Jan 12, 2010)

if you really like it... you buy it... thats why i'm broke lol


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## cris (Jan 12, 2010)

JasonL said:


> I think we are peas in a pod, maybe we should start our own syndicate, pool our money and and buy one GTP?



What are we going to feed it to? :lol:


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## bundysnake (Jan 12, 2010)

From what i understand all our GTP's came from PNG initially when it was connected to Cape York so what is all the fuss about pure aussie GTP's?


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## mungus (Jan 12, 2010)

petpages said:


> I'm sorry ! let me introduce myself. Petpages IS Adrian Hemens..... and while I have never before joined any forum, I thought it was about time I did...if only to defend myself !
> 
> I have bred greens every year since 2001.... a lot longer than some other 'experts'



Ohhh, what a classic reply............:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Lets see how the comments directed at Adrien change in tone.....................


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## Lewy (Jan 12, 2010)

petpages said:


> I have bred greens every year since 2001.... a lot longer than some other 'experts'


 

Your my hero


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## deebo (Jan 12, 2010)

A bit off topic I guess but are the greens at Australia Zoo aussie ones? When i was there a while ago they had 3 on display.....here is a pic of each one. Are they all aussie do you think?


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## deebo (Jan 12, 2010)

also, what was the reasoning behind confiscating the greens from people a whiel ago? I am assuming that they were legally collected to begin with.....I would be pissed off I had my snakes confiscated only to be given to someone else. There doesnt seem to be much logic to it. If someone else can legally keep them then why cant I?


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## Serpentes (Jan 12, 2010)

Dave- there are complex issues resulting in the politically-motivated raids on some herpetologists in the past. Some of these raids were contested all the way to the Supreme Court, and well known people like Steve Irwin abolished any chance of gaining my respect with their abhorrent, immoral behaviour in some cases. The pythons you photographed above are probably not the ones young Irwin swindled. He killed them off or sent them away. The ones you picture are not Australian, or are mongels. Even though Irwin was the threatened species coordinator for Chondropython, he didn't improve the conservation status in captive populations.

Bundysnake- if you do your homework you'll be able to answer your own question. Hint: read some of the primary literature Waterrat has posted on the GTP Essential Information sticky. Especially the one with "...reveals cryptic diversity.." in the title.

Browns: permits to collect are issued according to the suitability of license applicants. If you wanted to yourself, you can simply download the application permit from the Ecoaccess website, fill it in and wait for the reply. If your application passes the first round of inspections you will have just entered paperwork hell. You will need to affiliate with a professional organsiation, demonstrate years of professional experience yourself, have several scientific referees willing to vouch for your experience and skill, Animal Ethics Approval according to Federal requirements from a board of 16 scrutineers, and a clearly designed plan. If you pass the second round of the application process you'll be required to report regularly to your very own Ecoaccess representative who will assess your license on an ongoing, personal basis. It's a pain in the bum, trust me. I've had a number of different types of these permits.

Licenses aren't only give to one person. The one you question in a previous post was not the only license granted in that time period. The other licenses were given to other herpetologists of renown who were able to satisfy the permit application requirements at the time. 

Sounds like we have a mutual friend in Bob B, sadly I don't get up to visit him much now as I live in NSW! He taught me a lot, and I miss all his amazing insights into ecological processes and behaviours. People like him and Michael Cermak tend not to blow their own horns as much as they could, and people sometimes aren't cluey enough to offer the appropriate respect. But you get that anywhere.


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## Waterrat (Jan 12, 2010)

David Evans said:


> A bit off topic I guess but are the greens at Australia Zoo aussie ones? When i was there a while ago they had 3 on display.....here is a pic of each one. Are they all aussie do you think?



David, none of these are aussie native although AZ do have some natives in their collection.
The confiscation, etc., goes back a long way and is linked to the Bob Buckley saga - a long story!


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## deebo (Jan 12, 2010)

thats sad that they dont display the ones that live in our own country! The last one certainly didnt look like a typical aussie but wasnt certain on the others....

Is there any literature that has a good history on the collection etc of the aussie greens or has it not been well published?


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## Serpentes (Jan 12, 2010)

The collection history of green pythons is shrouded in political and personal conflicts, the rife jealousy that these permits evoke in some people makes it better for the permit holders remain discrete. In fact discretion is stipulated in the permit requirements, as to avoid the nay-sayers interfering. It doesn't always work  There is some interesting reading on the net if you want to waste time and energy looking into some of the political strangeness surrounding elements of green python collection and husbandry.

There are publications by the Australian Senate Committee concerning green pythons. This species has a complex political history.


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## Waterrat (Jan 12, 2010)

David Evans said:


> thats sad that they dont display the ones that live in our own country! The last one certainly didnt look like a typical aussie but wasnt certain on the others....
> 
> Is there any literature that has a good history on the collection etc of the aussie greens or has it not been well published?




Nothing has been published on the collecting - if it was, it would be titled "the black book". lol
A lot has been published on native and other GTPs - go to the "Gtp - essential info" thread here or on ARF (more complete there).


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## Kurto (Jan 12, 2010)

David Evans said:


> Is there any literature that has a good history on the collection etc of the aussie greens or has it not been well published?



Hearing and reading opinions and rumors over the last few years has left me skeptical of anyone claiming 100% native collections. I'm not singling anyone out in particular. But having some sort of overview of the captive history of Aussie greens would be great. Link to a past thread maybe?


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## Kurto (Jan 12, 2010)

Be me to it Waterrat!


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## Perko (Jan 12, 2010)

If i was going to outlay the extra bucks on a Aussie, i would want it to look like this stunner.
What a great looking snake.
Has anyone got any pics of wild Oz GTP's with out the full white stripe?





flavirufus said:


> Aussies are definitely my favourites. I'm biased though, as I keep and breed Aussie GTPs, and, well, I'm Australian! Guess I'm a bit patriotic  But seriously, they do have to be one of the prettiest GTPs. The white vertebral stripe is just speccy. I was a bit worried when I first bred my Aussies, as I'd heard of and seen other 'Aussie' lineages that didn't all develop good vertebral stripes. I was pretty amazed to see all of my hatchlings emerging from the egg with a clear vertebral stripe already!! I don't know of any other GTP locality that shows the adult pattern as hatchlings like these seem to do. Love them!


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2010)

bundysnake said:


> From what i understand all our GTP's came from PNG initially when it was connected to Cape York so what is all the fuss about pure aussie GTP's?


 
From what I understand carpet pythons come from Australia and there seems to be a great deal of fuss about locality specific animals here and even more fuss about mixing localites but it just seems to me that no one cares when it comes to GTP's as long as they get one cheap


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## Waterrat (Jan 12, 2010)

CraigP said:


> If i was going to outlay the extra bucks on a Aussie, i would want it to look like this stunner.
> What a great looking snake.
> Has anyone got any pics of wild Oz GTP's with out the full white stripe?




Craig, wild natives with interrupted vertebral line outweigh the ones with continuous line by large. I would say individuals like on that photo are rare.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 12, 2010)

Waterrat, I'm not trying to make an issue, but
In regards to an earlier post about price and value of Natives, I think its pretty safe to assume that you and probably some others still have a number of yearlings from last year and a large number of hatchlings from this season. If not, alot of people are of the perception you must. 

So with that in mind, I look at the current asking price of $3 500 ea for a hatchling, and then you have to take into account that I need to buy perhaps 3,4 or even 5 to guarantee a pair. Then wait the 3-4 years to get them breeding. At that point, you would have bred numerous clutch's each year and so would have other breeders, therefore filling the demand and lowering the price. That then means that the first year I bred my natives the price would have at least dropped by half, probably more. Take into account that I may only breed 1 female and she may only lay10-12 eggs, and those juveniles (if they all hatch) may be only worth $1 000 ea by that time. So my initial investment of 10k - 15k, may only return 10k. 

10k sounds good, but to outlay upto 15k and only get back 10-12k 3 or 4 years later is a bit on the lean side for most people, especially when you consider most of us are spending our hard earned savings on a hobby and animals we love.

I simply believe that the people who were prepared to buy Natives as an investment and pay the higher prices have been and gone, the next lot of people willing to pay the $3 500 - $4 500 have been and gone, so the rest of us are waiting for $1 500 - $2 000

Im not speaking for everyone but most of us want to make our money back, perhaps double it. That way we have enough of a profit to buy our other wanted reptiles. that seems to be the general perception of most of my herp mates and others that I talk to. Thought you might appreciate our perspective.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Waterrat, I'm not trying to make an issue, but
> In regards to an earlier post about price and value of Natives, I think its pretty safe to assume that you and probably some others still have a number of yearlings from last year and a large number of hatchlings from this season. If not, alot of people are of the perception you must.
> 
> So with that in mind, I look at the current asking price of $3 500 ea for a hatchling, and then you have to take into account that I need to buy perhaps 3,4 or even 5 to guarantee a pair. Then wait the 3-4 years to get them breeding. At that point, you would have bred numerous clutch's each year and so would have other breeders, therefore filling the demand and lowering the price. That then means that the first year I bred my natives the price would have at least dropped by half, probably more. Take into account that I may only breed 1 female and she may only lay10-12 eggs, and those juveniles (if they all hatch) may be only worth $1 000 ea by that time. So my initial investment of 10k - 15k, may only return 10k.
> ...


 

I had the opportunity to buy a hatchling for around $1800 I spent around $4500 because I wanted a female aussie and for a yearling sexed native GTP that's what they cost! I could at any stage buy a hatcho for a lot less but Id have no idea what sex it is, no idea where it comes from, and no idea if it will even turn out green in the end!
and im not against non-natives as soon as I find some I like I will pay the $1800-$2000 but im not going to sit there and say "when the price comes down" when it has already


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## Waterrat (Jan 12, 2010)

I do appreciate your perspective and your calculations and assumptions sound good to me. You are right in that the investors are gone. It's your call whether you want to get into breeding GTPs for the money or for other reasons. I really have nothing else to add to this part of your post.

I don't have many yearlings left, to be exact, I have 2 pairs left and there is currently a serious interest in one of them. It's clear to me that people prefer sexed, coloured, well established GTPs and they are prepared to pay the extra.
I am not at liberty to disclose how many hatchlings I have but be assured I don't mind to hold onto them for a year and repeat what I have done last year.
My advice is, if you are seriously interested in buying 3,4,5 of my snakes, it would be better to talk to me over the phone or at least through PM.

regards
Michael


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## Perko (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks for clearing that up.



Waterrat said:


> Craig, wild natives with interrupted vertebral line outweigh the ones with continuous line by large. I would say individuals like on that photo are rare.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 12, 2010)

Farma
I certainly believe that Adrian's and Michael's are worth more than most. You do get a certain degree of confidence in health and history. They are worth more than exotic GTPS. Most exotic GTPS are only worth $1 000, with that taken into account Natives are worth $1 500 - $2 000. I feel that is a fair price and I feel that is the price that should maintain. 

Sure the price has come down from the original figures, but like I said most of us dont see the long term return value in the current price, its a simple as that. (sorry, no offence meant to you Michael)


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 12, 2010)

I am predicting with the non natives, that when a few of the more interesting traits become readily avaiable as they are continually line bred, they will be more popular than natives and will be similarly priced as the natives price tags slowly comes down. Personally I like the natives, but I guess I am just a tad nostalgic.


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## Waterrat (Jan 12, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Farma
> I certainly believe that Adrian's and Michael's are worth more than most. You do get a certain degree of confidence in health and history. They are worth more than exotic GTPS. Most exotic GTPS are only worth $1 000, with that taken into account Natives are worth $1 500 - $2 000. I feel that is a fair price and I feel that is the price that should maintain.
> 
> Sure the price has come down from the original figures, but like I said most of us dont see the long term return value in the current price, its a simple as that. (sorry, no offence meant to you Michael)



No offence taken. Some things such as cars are not worth investing in, when it comes to selling you always come out short but boy, it's fun driving them!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 12, 2010)

Nice analogy, I am sure breeding and maintaining these awesome pythons would have been great over the last number of years. From the photos I have seen and the people I have spoken too, you do this hobby proud with your knowledge and attention to detail in your husbandry.


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## unique (Jan 12, 2010)

Ok.. coastals and jungles are seperated by a few K's 
and they are differnt sub species.dna cant prove they 
are ,but they are..why arnt PNG gtps and Aussies gtps
not differnt sub species ?? 

IMO an aussie gtp crossed with an PNG gtp is a hybrid.
i would never keep anything other then a pure aussie native gtp.

Cheers


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2010)

unique said:


> Ok.. coastals and jungles are seperated by a few K's
> and they are differnt sub species.dna cant prove they
> are ,but they are..


 
thats not very convincing


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## mungus (Jan 12, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Farma
> I certainly believe that Adrian's and Michael's are worth more than most. You do get a certain degree of confidence in health and history. They are worth more than exotic GTPS. Most exotic GTPS are only worth $1 000, with that taken into account Natives are worth $1 500 - $2 000. I feel that is a fair price and I feel that is the price that should maintain.
> 
> Sure the price has come down from the original figures, but like I said most of us dont see the long term return value in the current price, its a simple as that. (sorry, no offence meant to you Michael)



So, your running a business not a hobby..........??


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## Serpentes (Jan 13, 2010)

mungus said:


> So, your running a business not a hobby..........??


I would have interpreted it as "I'm in this for the money, and don't place an inherent value on snakes, just an instrumental value". 

I'd pay big money for any snake I particularly desire from a personal standpoint. Please note that the following is simply a personal viewpoint and not intended to berate others. 

If an albino python of any species was worth $5, I would not own one. I would not house one in captivity myself, unless it was unable to be re-homed, as I wholly consider albinism an unattractive mutant. I understand why certain people desire albinos, but simply, I am partial to neither their genetic nor phenotypic expression.

If rough-scaled pythons were still worth $5,000 I woud be interested in obtaining some when funds could provision it. I have a great interest in the species and I dearly look forward to keeping some myself again. I am fairly happy that I will not be paying $5,000 per snake! But I would if that was the price to pay for keeping a species of such fascinating ecology, morphology, biogeography and behaviour. This is just one of a plethora of species for which I would pay high prices.

The inherent value I place on a reptile species is not influenced by the instrumental (money) value others impose on that species. I don't treat reptiles as commodities. For example, there are members on this forum who have received quantities of instrumentally valuable snakes from me in the past, free of charge, just because they share the same inherent value ethic with me.


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## Costa (Jan 13, 2010)

Serpentes said:


> I would have interpreted it as "I'm in this for the money, and don't place an inherent value on snakes, just an instrumental value".
> 
> I'd pay big money for any snake I particularly desire from a personal standpoint. Please note that the following is simply a personal viewpoint and not intended to berate others.
> 
> ...


 
in it for the snakes and not for the money
a true passion in herps
i agree.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 13, 2010)

mungus said:


> So, your running a business not a hobby..........??


 
Mungus
No not at all. I am a hobbiest, however as I stated earlier, most people when they invest big dollars in animals, say in excess of 5k, they want usually to recoup that money, usually with a bit of profit so they can upgrade to newer species. 

Im not in it for the cash, but I dont like to throw my hard earned cash away. So I buy smart, and at the right time for the right money. I missed the boat on the early available Natives, so now its only a matter of time until they reach a dollar value that Im comfortable with.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 13, 2010)

Serpentes said:


> I would have interpreted it as "I'm in this for the money, and don't place an inherent value on snakes, just an instrumental value".
> 
> I'd pay big money for any snake I particularly desire from a personal standpoint. Please note that the following is simply a personal viewpoint and not intended to berate others.
> 
> ...


 
Sepentes
I assume the first line of this quote is directed at me.
Your interpretation is off the mark, I maintain numerous species, most of which are worthless, but they fascinate me, they are found from unique eco systems and most are in my collection because they are simply fun to keep and maintain.
My comments in response to Waterrat and Natives is totally based on me spending my hard earned wages. That spending needs to be smart and when I spend big I need to recoup that money, otherwise Im divorced and homeless.

Im not made of money and Im not prepared to spend big money for any snake I particulary desire from a personal standpoint.


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## herpkeeper (Jan 13, 2010)

It doesn't take a genius to work out those who are in it for the money and those who have a real passion !
just take a look at some of those greedy private breeder's who breed copius amounts of animals, do they have the best interest of the hobby in mind or their wallets ? In it for the animals - yer right ! & the other one plays jingle bells.........


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## Kurto (Jan 13, 2010)

herpkeeper said:


> It doesn't take a genius to work out those who are in it for the money and those who have a real passion !
> just take a look at some of those greedy private breeder's who breed copius amounts of animals, do they have the best interest of the hobby in mind or their wallets ? In it for the animals - yer right ! & the other one plays jingle bells.........



So one can't have passion and try to make a profit as well?


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## Waterrat (Jan 13, 2010)

herpkeeper said:


> It doesn't take a genius to work out those who are in it for the money and those who have a real passion !
> just take a look at some of those greedy private breeder's who breed copius amounts of animals, do they have the best interest of the hobby in mind or their wallets ? In it for the animals - yer right ! & the other one plays jingle bells.........




That is a pretty bitter statement Herpkeeper. Are you generally a happy person?
You seem to condemn the "private breeder" but the pros who produce even higher amounts of animals are alright? What's the difference? Why can one make money the other not? Breeding and keeping thics are not necessarily express in poverty.


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## Serpentes (Jan 13, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Your interpretation is off the mark, I maintain numerous species, most of which are worthless, but they fascinate me, they are found from unique eco systems and most are in my collection because they are simply fun to keep and maintain.



I apologise for the misunderstanding. I am aware of people who breed snakes in large number as some sort of ego-gratifying financial adventure, sometimes with consequences inimical to the animals welfare. I sure you understand my dislike of such exploitative husbandry! Making money from captive snakes is just fine, so long as money is not the principle motivation for keeping snakes in cages. Honestly, I wish I was making some money from breeding anything this season, I'm broke


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## herpkeeper (Jan 13, 2010)

I don't see that as a overly bitter statement Micheal, it's called reality ! 

Kurto, I make profit off my animals, I could be making a whole lot more but I don't want to be looked at as one of those who flood the market with no thought towards sustainability


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 13, 2010)

Serpentes said:


> I apologise for the misunderstanding. I am aware of people who breed snakes in large number as some sort of ego-gratifying financial adventure, sometimes with consequences inimical to the animals welfare. I sure you understand my dislike of such exploitative husbandry! Making money from captive snakes is just fine, so long as money is not the principle motivation for keeping snakes in cages. Honestly, I wish I was making some money from breeding anything this season, I'm broke


 
All good mate. Sounds like you need a sugar mumma who can help you out.


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## Waterrat (Jan 13, 2010)

herpkeeper said:


> I don't see that as a overly bitter statement Micheal, it's called reality !




It's a skewed outlook on reality mate, some of us maintained large collections for decades at significant cost and no returns whatsoever because reptiles were not worth money then. I didn't change that - the *hobby* we have today (and you are part of it) did!
Should I be the dinosaur and give my snakes away or sell them for what some think is fair price? I am proud of my ethics and I contribute to the herp community in form of publishing and sharing all I know. Do I have to be poor as well?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 13, 2010)

Anyway lets get back on topic here.

I recall Michael stating that he has heard a lot of talk of lots of GTPs being bred, as he already said its January, where are they all. Tim obviously replied and said he will have them available and cheaper than last year. Does anyone else have any they know that will be available. 
Has anyone managed to breed any from the "Pails" line from a few years back, a few of my mates got some from this line and these animals have seemed to retain alot of yellow in the rear half of their body. Should be some cracker offspring from these around by now.


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## Serpentes (Jan 13, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> ...I contribute to the herp community in form of publishing and sharing all I know. Do I have to be poor as well?


Only if you are involved in university-based research :lol:


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## herpkeeper (Jan 13, 2010)

That "skewed" statement was aimed at the money driven egotistical types that have invaded the hobby in recent years, not you Micheal.

cheers HK.


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## waruikazi (Jan 13, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> It's a skewed outlook on reality mate, some of us maintained large collections for decades at significant cost and no returns whatsoever because reptiles were not worth money then. I didn't change that - the *hobby* we have today (and you are part of it) did!
> Should I be the dinosaur and give my snakes away or sell them for what some think is fair price? I am proud of my ethics and I contribute to the herp community in form of publishing and sharing all I know. Do I have to be poor as well?



Then you're obviously not in it for the money and aren't the people that the original comment was aimed at.


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## DanN (Jan 25, 2010)

99.9% of all Australian green python have a white vertebral line. It is 50/50 if the line is broken or unbroken and is most prominant in the posteroir of the animal, tapering towards the head. 

Some very old individuals have a blue/purple line, however this is rare. Young animals which have recently undergone OCC have few vertebral spots which are often yellow (these become a solid line as the animal matures). 

As mentioned earlier in the thread, juvenile aussies often have a strong white vertebral stripe becoming more prominant with age.

Australian animals all have varying degrees of blue. 

When an animal scars, the scar beomes blue. Young greens have blue markings that were red rosettes when the individual was a juvenile.

Many females which, I presume, have produced a clutch that season have large amounts of blue on the flanks and especiialy on the underside of the head and often look more blue than green. The blue is very pale, but they are still green snakes. It is unknown to what extent they retain this blue.

Blue colouring appears to be a nutrient deficiency and hormonal. Mny malnourished animals are bright blue with green heads and tails, as the reamining nutrients are stored in the extremeties. It is likely that some part of the diet is lacking and they can no longer produce the yellow pigment to make green, therefore the animal is blue?

The underbelly of juvenile snakes is always white and only becomes yellow on older animals. Yellow begins in the anteriorventral surface and very old animals all have bright yellow,blue and white bellies near the tail.

Having said all this, there are always variations, so take it all with a grain of salt, however these are certainly the vast majority oif cases.

This is not to say that 'colour' is in any way a distingusher of ''''race''' - every population of green python can have huge variation so you could never be 100% sure sure of local unless you nab it yourself.

Hope this helps,
Dan


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## Serpentes (Jan 25, 2010)

That's some good info Dan, cheers. Do you have any reference material on the basis for colour changes?
S.


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## BROWNS (Jan 25, 2010)

DanN said:


> 99.9% of all Australian green python have a white vertebral line. It is 50/50 if the line is broken or unbroken and is most prominant in the posteroir of the animal, tapering towards the head.
> 
> Some very old individuals have a blue/purple line, however this is rare. Young animals which have recently undergone OCC have few vertebral spots which are often yellow (these become a solid line as the animal matures).
> 
> ...



This certainly doesn't seem to be others opinions who are working with Native greens,even earlier Waterrat mentioned the vertebral stripe is in fact a rarety rather than being common.There's many views and opinions however as many of you may know that G Gowes greens which are natives are in the hands of URS now and still no luck with breeding them suspected to be too old but aren't or don't look like the 99.9% of native greens as mentioned above.They're very large for Native Aussie greens and have a few white dots which doesn't configure to what many describe as typical Aussies as mentioned above and from what I've seen A Hemens produces similar animals meant to be Natives but how will you really know?Also waterrat seems to produce animals without the full stripe etc yet at least he can back up his claims with a copy of a permit to collect 2 Native greens,it was posted in another thread but I can't seem to find it.I personally would love and am prepared to pay for TRUE PURE NATIVE AUSTRALIAN GREEN TREE PYTHONS However I'd want to be 100% sure they are Natives with some proof to back it up as they do vary quite a bit and it's not the $$$$ it's the guaranteed PURE AUSSIES I would like to keep with enough proof provided as possible that they are Natives as mentioned above many puresw don't fit the stereotype given by many such as DanN!

i have a good idea now on who's producing pure Aussie greens and will purchase from the ones who can prove the animals are natives or not ,not just going on looks etc..


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## BROWNS (Jan 25, 2010)

Hey Serpentes just wondering why you have a leucistic animal in your avatar yet hate mutations such as albinism etc?????Just a mild observation which probably means nothing at all??


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## Serpentes (Jan 25, 2010)

Browns-
1. DanN knows what he is talking about regarding herpetofauna. I have been assured this! 

2. Most importantly, your question to me has me in stitches. Maybe I need to change it! That's a pendant I carved from bone, I wear it sometimes. Such a hypocrite, me!  Anyway, I don't hate albinism, I just don't find it desirable. I've said elsewhere that I'd keep an albino snake if it couldn't be moved on. Poor lil' mutants.


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## BROWNS (Jan 25, 2010)

lol good carving looks like some sort of leucistic snake,I'd be having a good laugh to lol

I have to say I had thought much the same about the points Dan provide yet others seem to have different views and claim to have quite a lot of experience,it's just a matter of who do you believe at the end of the day unless you yourself have gone and done thr fieldwork needed to provide accurate information?


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## Serpentes (Jan 25, 2010)

DanN has done the fieldwork, to the best of my knowledge!


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## Mayhem (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm sure that I've read somewhere in a reputable book or paper that the Merauke GTP's lose their white stripe in captive breeding too. Not sure if it declines a little with each generation, or if it begins immediately and without pattern, but it clearly mentioned that even a very strong striped (wild caught) parent will not promise that resulting offspring will carry the rather distinct and desirable trait of the stripe. 

So it goes without saying that this would also be very relevant to the Aussie GTP line, being that they seem to be the most closely related of the "locality types" as far as appearance goes, if of course you follow the "Locality is relevant to appearance" idea (which many don't).

I'm no pro but I have to say, there have been a few claims of successful breeding and results in this thread by people that I have my doubts on in regards to their truth . Some of the information they have claimed about offspring data/appearance just doesn't seem to match up at all with the information from the guys who I KNOW have bred Aussies long term have posted etc, making me suspect about their claims. I may be totally wrong of course, but logic tells me to side with the known and experienced breeders past results and data over the claims that are out of the normal by either very quiet or previously unknown guys.

My 2c


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## zulu (Jan 26, 2010)

*re GTP*

I like the striped aussie GTPs like the one in molochs iron range post,it looks similar to the pics David Wilson has from his study http://www.hermonslade.org.au/projects/HSF_03_6/hsf_03_6.htm even the yellow juvy has a well developed white dorsal stripe,the two adults that are green look to have prominent white vertebral stripes.


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## BROWNS (Jan 26, 2010)

It makes no sense that striped Aussies lose the stripe when kept and bred in captivity,now why would that be?Some mentioned lack of UV etc but they are nocturnal animals which makes the theory they lose striping in captivity seem to be an incorrect statement?

Most people I know and have spoken to and who they've spoken to also have said practically every native Aussie green seen have had the classic stripe and different bright green opposed to other localities such as Indo Pacific Islands animals etc as explained in Maxwells books.


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## zulu (Jan 26, 2010)

*re GTP*



BROWNS said:


> It makes no sense that striped Aussies lose the stripe when kept and bred in captivity,now why would that be?Some mentioned lack of UV etc but they are nocturnal animals which makes the theory they lose striping in captivity seem to be an incorrect statement?
> 
> Most people I know and have spoken to and who they've spoken to also have said practically every native Aussie green seen have had the classic stripe and different bright green opposed to other localities such as Indo Pacific Islands animals etc as explained in Maxwells books.



Interesting thread on morelia viridus forum about the stripes,Morelia Viridus the administrator comments that years back at a symposium in the USA David Wilson commented that all the green old enough to under go colour change in his two year iron tange study had stripes,i beleve him as he is a scientist thats not trying to push sales.


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## Mayhem (Jan 26, 2010)

BROWNS said:


> It makes no sense that striped Aussies lose the stripe when kept and bred in captivity,now why would that be?Some mentioned lack of UV etc but they are nocturnal animals which makes the theory they lose striping in captivity seem to be an incorrect statement?
> 
> Most people I know and have spoken to and who they've spoken to also have said practically every native Aussie green seen have had the classic stripe and different bright green opposed to other localities such as Indo Pacific Islands animals etc as explained in Maxwells books.



Doesnt have to make sense, it just is  I guess you could think of it as one of those mysteries like what causes Diamond Python Syndrome in captive Diamonds.... I'm sure there is an answer somewhere, but it isn't immediately obvious yet.

BUT... BUT... BUT... on that note....

Question for Waterrat:

You keep your GTP's outdoors effectively don't you??? Sorry I might be confused, but I'm kind of assuming that you do because of where you live and I think it also says something to the effect on your website???

I ask this, because it would also raise the question of the stripe on your animals in relation to this topic - if they are indeed kept "outside" has the stripe on your animals deteriorated at all over the generations??? Have you noticed any difference in the stripe consistency between your "outdoor" housed animals and your "indoor" housed animals (if you even have such a indoor/outdoor thing going on?)


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## Waterrat (Jan 26, 2010)

Mayhem said:


> Question for Waterrat:
> 
> You keep your GTP's outdoors effectively don't you??? Sorry I might be confused, but I'm kind of assuming that you do because of where you live and I think it also says something to the effect on your website???
> 
> I ask this, because it would also raise the question of the stripe on your animals in relation to this topic - if they are indeed kept "outside" has the stripe on your animals deteriorated at all over the generations??? Have you noticed any difference in the stripe consistency between your "outdoor" housed animals and your "indoor" housed animals (if you even have such a indoor/outdoor thing going on?)



UV has nothing to do with the white pigment. Some captive bred GTPs have less white markings, some have more and they usually acquire more white markings as they get older.
Basically, what DanN said in his post is correct, he knows what he is talking about.


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## Waterrat (Jan 26, 2010)

I need to make few corrections:
1/ I didn't say it's rare for native GTPs to have a vertebral stripe. I did refer to "uninterrupted, i.e. not continuous / with any few gaps" vertebral line. All natives have some form of line, even if it means a few sp**** dots.

2/ I did not say or imply that the copy of the permit I posted was in my name. The reason for posting it was to prove that permit(s) have been issued to collect GTPs in Qld.

Zulu, David Wilson meant vertebral markings as in a series of white or creamy / yellow dots that may or may not be joined all the way from head to tail. When you say "stripes" it's an ambiguous word that I am sure David didn't use.

Here we can see how incorrect wording such as "stripes" , "classic stripe" "a line" can lead to confusion - yet, we are talking about the same thing. Certainly, not all native GTPs (in the wild) have uninterrupted, continuous vertebral markings just like not all captive bred ones don't necessarily have reduced markings. It is also incorrect to state that native GTPs loose the markings in captivity. They certainly don't loose any once they're there.

I hope this helps a bit.

cheers


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## Waterrat (Jan 26, 2010)

To illustrate the differences, here are 3 examples:

1 continuous, unbroken line (I call it line because it's uninterrupted)
2 series of markings along the spine that have gaps but there are also additional "spots" outside the line.
3 series of markings with wide gaps.

None of these types are "classic" or typical" it's just normal variation that can be seen in both wild and captive bred natives.


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## cement (Jan 26, 2010)

I was told by a reptile keeper at the zoo that Aus zoo's greens are PNG. 

At an expo last year I asked a big time breeder if their greens were native to Aus... I was told by him (after a slight hesitation) that these particular hatchys were _born_ in Aus. Now, i can only assume that this is a bit of a sneaky way to lead a less then observant person into thinking that they were native.

And with another transaction with the same person going sour, I am now of the opinion that just because someone breeds everything and has a massive business concern, is not the right way to buy animals of good quality or of a desired locality.

When it comes to the humble green python, and the day will come when I am buying them, you have to do your research and not be governed by the cheapest price or the clever sales pitch. I have a fairly good idea who I will be contacting when the time has come and this is after years of watching, talking and listening and reading.

No other snake creates such an aura of confusion or political bull****.!!


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## Waterrat (Jan 26, 2010)

cement said:


> I was told by a reptile keeper at the zoo that Aus zoo's greens are PNG.
> 
> At an expo last year I asked a big time breeder if their greens were native to Aus... I was told by him (after a slight hesitation) that these particular hatchys were _born_ in Aus. Now, i can only assume that this is a bit of a sneaky way to lead a less then observant person into thinking that they were native.



The breeder was implying, that they weren't smuggled in. The rest of his answer is pretty clear .......


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## Serpentes (Jan 26, 2010)

cement said:


> I was told by a reptile keeper at the zoo that Aus zoo's greens are PNG.


Steve Irwin had several high quality Australian green pythons, but he couldn't keep many of them alive, let alone breed them.


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## Mayhem (Jan 26, 2010)

But the whole canary chonrdo thing is pretty shakey isnt it? I had a feeling they often turned green, just aloooooot later (up to 5 years into life), which has left quite a few people staring at their now fairly normal looking green chondro, wondering "Why did I pay so much again?"


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## zulu (Jan 26, 2010)

*re GTP*



Mayhem said:


> But the whole canary chonrdo thing is pretty shakey isnt it? I had a feeling they often turned green, just aloooooot later (up to 5 years into life), which has left quite a few people staring at their now fairly normal looking green chondro, wondering "Why did I pay so much again?"



Youve launched a canary,earth to mayhem,come in little buddy your breaking up,mayday,mayday ! :lol:


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