# Crossbreeding Questions...



## KingsReptiles (Jun 18, 2016)

Hi all, i was wondering if these species can and will crossbreed, as i am making a large outdoor lizard enclosure with a few of these species hoping for them to breed with their same species and sell the babies but i don't want them crossbreeding.

Can Blotched Blue Tongues breed with Eastern Blue Tongues
Can Eastern Blue Tongues breed with Eastern Shinglebacks
Can Blotched Blue Tongues breed with Eastern Shinglebacks
Can Pink Tongues Breed with Eastern Shinglebacks
Can Pink Tongues Breed with Blotched Blue Tongues
Can Pink Tongues Breed with Eastern Blue Tongues
Can Jacky Dragons Breed with Mountain Heath Dragons
Can Eastern Bearded Dragons Breed with Eastern Water Dragons
Can Eastern Long Neck Turtles Breed with Sydney Basin Short Neck Turtles
Can Eastern Water Skinks Breed with Robust Striped Skinks
Can Eastern Blue Tongues Breed with Land Mullets
Can Blotched Blue Tongues Breed with Land Mullets
Can Eastern Shinglebacks Breed with Land Mullets
Can Cunningham's Skinks Breed with Land Mullets
Can Cunningham's Skinks Breed with Blue Tongues
Can Cunningham's Skinks Breed with Shinglebacks
Can Land Mullets Breed with Pink Tongues
Can Jacky Dragons Breed with Eastern Bearded Dragons
Can Jacky Dragons Breed with Eastern Water Dragons
Can Eastern Water Skinks Breed with Cunningham's Skinks

Thanks, I just need this information to know if i need to separate them in breeding season.


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## BredliFreak (Jun 18, 2016)

I'll try and answer best to my knowledge but:
1. Yes
2.Yes
3. Probably
7. Maybe
9. Maybe but I have no clue about turtles
18. Maybe

Just saying, a lot of these guys will eat eachother, have different requirements for their care and have various disputes and other stuff, not to mention it is unlikely that they will crossbreed so my advice is that I would keep the Pinkies indoors, Have a pit with Cunninghams, blueys and EWDs. I would probably keep all the others in their own seperate pits, except for the Water Skinks and Striped skinks, which i would probably keep in a tub or tank.

Hope this helps and if anyone wants to correct me please do so


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## Wally (Jun 18, 2016)

If you're looking for a get rich quick scheme, reptile breeding isn't it.


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 18, 2016)

Wally said:


> If you're looking for a get rich quick scheme, reptile breeding isn't it.



Not doing it that way anyway... There will be territorial stresses, dominance issues, feeding issues and all sorts of other issue including crossbreeding between similar species. Most of them will die well before breeding season. You'll rapidly end up with a few fat and successful animals - the rest will stress, starve, shrivel and die. Looks like you have plenty of basic stuff to learn before embarking on a breeding career.

Jamie


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## KingsReptiles (Jun 18, 2016)

BredliFreak
Thanks, i probably won't get the pink tongues at all anyway, but i have seen breeders put most of the others together

Wally
Im not doing it for money, but because i love reptiles and it is my hobby, if they breed then i will sell babies but that isnt the reason i want lizards

pythoninfinite
I have seen some breeders keep both the blueys, cunninghams, water skinks, jacky dragons, water dragons, bearded dragons and land mullets together also with turtles in the pond. Mountain Dragons act almost the same as jackys and in my experience get along fine, and land mullets are similar to blueys and robust striped skinks get along fine and are very similar to water skinks. Also im quite experienced been keeping reptiles for over 8 years succsessfully had eastern blueys, jacky dragons, mountain dragons, pygmy bearded dragons, eastern water dragons, common scaly foot legless lizard, eastern water skinks, robust striped skinks, banded knob tail geckos, broad tailed geckos, robust velvet geckos, eastern spiny tail geckos, and a few more

Cheers


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## BredliFreak (Jun 18, 2016)

Maybe they have, but it's a big risk and it will be you who will be remorseful, not the lizards. There's certainly a possibility it could work but like in nature there will be a food chain. I would suggest at least not keeping the EWS/Robustus and the mountain dragon in there as they are easy prey. How will you keep predators from outside eating your animals? And how will you split up fights or resolve dominance issues? With multi-species enclosures/pits there is heaps to think about


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 18, 2016)

KingsReptiles said:


> BredliFreak
> Thanks, i probably won't get the pink tongues at all anyway, but i have seen breeders put most of the others together
> 
> Wally
> ...



You might do OK if your enclosure is about 2 hectares... but jamming all those species in together in a relatively small space is a disaster waiting to happen. Many of them are simply not compatible, regardless of what you want to believe. If you want to have a look at well matched group enclosures, go to the Australian Reptile Park and look at their outdoor pens - you'll see some bluetongues (one species) with one species of Dragon (Eastern Beardies from memory), Land Mullets and a couple of other things if I recall. Many of the species you mention will simply be food for the larger animals. I would have thought that with that amount of time keeping reptiles you would be well aware of territorialism, predatory behaviour, and dominance issues and the other things that make lizards quite sensitive in group enclosures. Done thoughtfully with careful selection of a few non-competing species it can work very well, but if you're anticipating putting all those species together in a confined space, go for it and see which ones comes out on top.

Those I know who had turtles in a pond with Water Dragons and other semi aquatic reptiles ended up with lizards missing toes and tail-tips for starters, and god knows what happens to the bubby Water Dragons when they go for their first swim...

Jamie


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## Tyloop (Jun 18, 2016)

Hi guys,
Im new to this forum.
I do not know how to start a new thread and i was wondering whether, if i got another thick tailed gecko to breed would i have to seperate them or could I keep them together all the time? thankyou.


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## KingsReptiles (Jun 19, 2016)

not sure but i keep my wheeleri together year round and they dont have a problem

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BredliFreak

Ok i probably can't get mountain dragons anyways, and i probably wont do water skinks,robust striped either then

It will be made of corogated iron dug deep in ground with cement and have screen lid

When they r settling in i will be there almost always and if im not i will have someone there, if need be i can make dividing walls out of wood or screen for the time being

pythoninfinite

I have been to the reptile park they have eastern blueys, water dragons, bearded dragons, cunninghams, land mullets and jacky dragons together and maybe shinglebacks, i have seen the breeder i got my black soil dragons off had all that plus blotchies, shingles and turtles and his water dragons looked healthy and he sold babies that looked really good but i might make 2 pits then


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## keen4kritters (Jun 19, 2016)

I don't think you would have a problem with any of those dragon species cross breeding. However if you have any sort of size difference between them they will stress/eat each other.


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## KingsReptiles (Jun 19, 2016)

ok thanks


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## Bluetongue1 (Jun 20, 2016)

@KingsReptiles, to answer your original question - all the Tiliqua species are capable of cross-breeding. The rest are inter-generic crosses and the only one I have heard of was an Eastern Bluetongue X Cunningham Skink. I don't know if the animal produced was fertile, though I would suspect it was probably a mule. 

With respect to dominance interactions, there is a thread on here somewhere about a sub-dominant male EWD being very severely stressed by the head bobbing and other visual signals of a mature male EBD. They were in cages that were on opposite sides of a room but facing each other. The EWD stopped feeding and eventually got very sick. A couple of other members posted similar tales but resolved their problems by altering or blocking the line of sight.

There are some subtleties that go into keeping a successful collection in a pit, mixed or otherwise, which you may or may not be aware of. For example, with species that are territorial, establish a dominance hierarchy, can exert dominance over different species, or are just plain non-social, there needs to be number of separate suitable micro-habitats, including basking spots, with visual barriers between each. This avoids visually induced stress and means animals will not be displaced or excluded from the only ‘prime territory’.

With production of young, eggs are usually removed and artificially incubated and the hatchlings are not returned to the pit until large enough to cope, if at all. Live-bearers that have small vulnerable young would be removed when highly gravid and same thing. Alternatively nature can be allowed to take its course, which would usually mean extra protein snacks for some inmates. 

I agree that Pink-tongued Skinks are not a good choice here. Firstly, they are nocturnal and you will never see them in a pit, except maybe by torchlight. Then you risk stressing the diurnal occupants. Ensuring they get their share of food creates another problem, for similar reasons. Lastly, but by no mean least, their humidity requirements are at odds the other wholly terrestrial species in the list.


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## KingsReptiles (Jun 20, 2016)

ok thanks i will make sure i do all that and i think ill split the big pit in half to make to still large pits to seperate EWDs and EBDs and to seperate blotchies from easterns and i will forget about the pink tongues or maybe have them indoors also do you think if i got an already bonded breeding pair of shinglebacks and put them in pit with easterns they would keep breeding with eachother or the easterns coz i heard shingles mate for life. thanks

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do you think this would work:

Pit 1
Eastern Bluetongues
Eastern Shinglebacks
Cunningham's Skinks
Land Mullets
Eastern Water Dragons
Eastern Water Skinks
Eastern Long Neck Turtles

Pit 2
Blotched Blue Tongues
Robust Striped Skinks
Mountain Heath Dragons
Eastern Bearded Dragons
Sydney Basin Short Neck Turtles


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## pythoninfinite (Jun 21, 2016)

You'll still have trouble with predation, especially if the sizes vary greatly. Unless you can witness egg-laying (sometimes this is very difficult) or births, and retrieve the eggs for artificial incubation, most of the babies won't stand a chance in the confines of a relatively small enclosure. The big dragons will feast on their own hatchies if they get a chance. You're trying to jam a large number of species that would otherwise be widely spread out into a small space that won't allow them to define their own territories. Although you have dismissed my comment about the dangers of putting predatory ambush feeders like turtles into the mix, please give it more than passing consideration.

Jamie


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## BredliFreak (Jun 21, 2016)

I wouldn't include the small skinks/mountain dragons, as they will be eaten. Also I would be wary of the Short-neck with predation attempts and so on. I don't see why eastern beardies and Blotchies can't be part of pit 1 but IMO it will have too many species to handle unless the pit is massive.


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## RoryBreaker (Jun 21, 2016)

If a pit full of scarred, bashed up missing body part animals is your thing.......go for it.:facepalm:


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## KingsReptiles (Jun 21, 2016)

it can be done right without that


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## BredliFreak (Jun 21, 2016)

Are you really that sure?

Im not doubting your abilities or experience but to have a peaceful multiple species pit 100% of the time is literally impossible. I'm sure even at the ARP plenty of disagreements and fights happen. I think you're being a tad arrogant with this (no offence) and as I said it's not the animals who will be remorseful (probably some of them will feel content with their full belly) it will be you. Not to mention a waste of money. If you have a day job then you probably have less time to split up fights or rescue animals that are being eaten or being injured.


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## KingsReptiles (Jun 21, 2016)

ok, i will make multiple pits as i said. i dont have a job so i will have lots of time. Im not trying to be carless but even keeping the same species together fights can happen. Its nature, but i will be there but i will be there to split it up most of the time and they usually wont injure each other too badly otherwise the ARP would not do it. I will house the smaller prey species seperate and i will bring eggs inside to incubate or bring live bearing animals in just before they give birth and keep the babies in indoor tanks until large enough to go out again


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## Raymonde (Jun 21, 2016)

Just in terms of the turtles. Long necks and short necks cannot crossbreed, they are very different, they can be housed together depending on the individuals but there are also many cases where one turtle will pick on the others. All the Emydura macquarii subspecies can interbreed and maybe a few other Emydura species but the Chelodina genus (long necks) is very different and will not interbreed at all with Emydura.
As a general rule (there is probably an exception or two) you will not get interbreeding between genera, but you can sometimes get it within a genus between closely related species, most subspecies with readily interbreed.

Don't know this for sure and its not my area of expertise but don't some lizards like blue tongues have a high chance of drowning? Maybe not a good idea to have them with a turtle pond....? 

Basically what everyone is saying, is while you can house a few species together, don't do too many and only in certain combinations and with certain species, preferably ones that are the same size. Also you would need to keep a very close eye on their health...

and yes, the short necks will probably try to bite everything that dangles in the water whether that is food, a leg or a tail I doubt they care and they have very strong jaws and eat almost everything..... The long necks might too but they are a bit more shy....


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## KingsReptiles (Jun 22, 2016)

ok thanks thats good to know about the turtles. my blue tongues seem to be ok swimmers for short distance and i will have lots of easy exit ramps on all sides and other people with blueys near ponds are fine they dont seem to go near it and yes i will chage to multiple pits to better suit how they live only a few species in each pit and i will check them all the time and i will put the water dragons in the pit without the short necks


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## Bluetongue1 (Jun 30, 2016)

@Raymonde. Some inter-generic crosses can produce viable young. Most young thus produced are mules, but in a few cases they are actually fertile. For example, the Red Siskin Finch _Spinus cucullata_ has been bred with canaries, _Serinus canaria_, to introduce a red colour factor into this otherwise yellow bird – not surprisingly called “Red Factor Canaries”. I guess it gets down to the fact that we humans draw the lines around species and genera... and nature doesn’t always fully agree.

@KingsReptiles. A few ideas to consider...

Definitely agree that it is important to match sizes of occupants. And it is not just the dragons that are potential predators. There is a thread somewhere here about keeping a bluey in the bottom of a landscaped finch aviary. When the owner started to lose fiches he suspected rodents but could find no evidence of them. Irrespective he took the appropriate steps but it made no difference until he caught the culprit in the act – the bluetongue. A couple of other members said they had similar experiences.

The only like cross breeding in a pit from all the animals you listed would be the Eastern and Blotched Bluetongues, so better to keep them separate or choose one over the other. 

If you consider the ARP mixed pit, in rough terms, adult SV lengths for the skinks was 300mm, for the larger dragons 250mm and for the smallest component, the Jacky 150mm. So adult jackys are just big enough to avoid being on the menu. In terms of young, any dragon offspring would be a potential meal but skink young are large enough to avoid that. So you would not be advised to copy ARP if you wanted to breed the dragons. 

My opinion... Adult Eastern Water Skinks have a SV 120mm but are quite stout bodied. Full grown, they are also likely to be too large to be preyed upon. So worth trying with the ARP mix (with one species of bluey, that is). The similar SV length but more slender body of the Robust Ctenotus will likely not afford the same degree of protection. Clearly the young of both would be vulnerable.

I doubt the ARP mix included Shinglebacks. Their greatest enemy on the east coast is humidity and an open body of water would certainly make for a more humid environment. 

I have only kept one juvenile short-necked turtle, which was voracious feeder on tadpoles and Plague Minnows (_Gambusia)_. My limited experience with _C. longicollis_ is that they tolerated small water dragons in the same water but was also used to being regularly hand fed. So follow the advice of those more experienced here.

Shingleback are more herbivorous and insectivorous that other Tiliqua. I suspect they could be housed with small dragons and skinks without concerns of predation. But I emphasise that I have not seen it done so do not know for sure. So I figure you could have a reasonably dry style pit with Ctenotus, Mountain Dragons, Jackys (if desired) and Shinglebacks.

 As pointed out, blueys are not good in water. So if a section of the pond has steep sides or overhanging rocks, what can be done is to divide this off so that the blueys cannot access that portion. A simple low rock, brick or plastic lawn/garden divider wall is all that is needed. Brick can be rendered with a suitable coloured oxide in the cement to make it blend in. Planting tussock grasses like Themeda spp (kangaroo grass), Danthonia spp (wallaby grass), Lomandra spp, native Pennisetum spp (foxtail or fountain grass) etc can be used to screen this low wall without providing any physical support for the lizards to scale it.


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## KingsReptiles (Jul 1, 2016)

ok yes will do that i wont keep the water skink and robust ctentotus and mountain dragond there when breeding season will be sure to remove eggs/babies/gravid animals straight away.


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