# My Python family



## Lanea (May 16, 2018)

Hi all. Been here about 6 wks now. Was researching like crazy in search of my first snake. (Been around them heaps though)

So..... 6 weeks later I have four....

Meet my team. 

NEO 

CLEOPATRA

RORY

ARCHIE

Just in search of a roughie and then my team is complete!!

THANK YOU to everyone who helped me and offered their advice!!


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## Flaviemys purvisi (May 16, 2018)

Hi, is there meant to be pics with your post? I can't see them??


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## Lanea (May 16, 2018)

Edited


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 16, 2018)

I'm a bit jealous Lanea, I have been intending to add some GTP's to my collection for a while but didn't get around to it yet.


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## Lanea (May 16, 2018)

Sorry total newb! Forgot my pics

GTP is Neo
Baby Spooted (my 8 yr olds) is Rory
Albino Darwin is Cleopatra 
Coastal Carpet is Archie

A dream to handle. Poor boy was handed to a pet shop, starved and no light source. Hasn’t eaten yet. I hope I havent bitten off more than I can chew with him. He is a beautiful boy. So friendly and loves being held. Has a brand new massive home with 3 hides plenty of warmth and light. Trees (fake) for added natural setting but has so far refused 3 rats. I feel sad for him....

The pet shop gave him to me for barely nothing as they didn’t even want to waste their rats on him and they aren’t a pet shop who specialise in reptiles and didn’t want him long term. Such a gorgeous boy though


















[doublepost=1526459544,1526459450][/doublepost]I’m using thawed out med rats. Even tried thawed weaners. Not happy with either. May have to try a freshly killed rat & see what happens.

Anyone have any tips?


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 16, 2018)

Not unusual for animals to refuse food at this time of year as its breeding season.
I wouldn't worry too much, just leave him be till spring.


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## Lanea (May 16, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> I'm a bit jealous Lanea, I have been intending to add some GTP's to my collection for a while but didn't get around to it yet.



Been in snake community 6 wks and have one. Problem is, he was the holy grail snake I’ve always wanted. Where to from here bc I aimed so high??? Hahahaha! I know, a blue green TP. Unfortunately I’m too poor for that!

Def want a dopey faced adorable roughie. But waiting til all my leather babies are settled before getting more.

Funny story about the GTP. My tenth anni is coming up. Hubby wanted to buy me a new diamond ring. Told him I don’t want a boring diamond ring, I want a GTP. I knew he couldn’t say no it being our 10th anniversary. That’s the only reason I got holy grail as my first snake lol....
[doublepost=1526461597,1526461412][/doublepost]


Pauls_Pythons said:


> Not unusual for animals to refuse food at this time of year as its breeding season.
> I wouldn't worry too much, just leave him be till spring.



The pet shop called him a coastal carpet, Paul do you agree? They weren’t 100% confident. I’m about 90% confident but can’t tell if he has any jungle in him....
[doublepost=1526461667][/doublepost]Even Males slow down food wise in breeding season?


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 16, 2018)

Lanea said:


> Even Males slow down food wise in breeding season?



100% Lanea. More interested in finding a mate. My belief is that the rest from feeding is good/necessary for their health and longevity of life.

Certainly looks like a Coastal to me.


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## richyboa72 (May 16, 2018)

Great collection there, that gtp is really nice 

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk


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## Bl69aze (May 16, 2018)

i'd like a gtp, but dont have the space for a gtp setup 

regarding the "poor keeping" of the pet shop, snakes don't need a light source, and pet shops will only feed them the minimum fortnightly, atleast the petshops (big names) ive been to, to keep costs down, as they generally dont breed their own but use the stuff they buy from breeders etc


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 16, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> and pet shops will only feed them the minimum fortnightly,



Excuse my lack of comprehension but does this mean the belief is that they should be fed more frequently than every fortnight?


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## cris (May 16, 2018)

At least put them through your ears or someone will post a meme like this


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 16, 2018)

Here we go again


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## Bl69aze (May 16, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Here we go again


I’m saying that they are feeding them the minimum they need, which is why they stay so small for their age, which is why they look like they’ve “been starved”


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 16, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> I’m saying that they are feeding them the minimum they need, which is why they stay so small for their age, which is why they look like they’ve “been starved”



If this is a genuine discussion how about creating a thread on the subject instead of taking this one off track.


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## Lanea (May 16, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> 100% Lanea. More interested in finding a mate. My belief is that the rest from feeding is good/necessary for their health and longevity of life.
> 
> Certainly looks like a Coastal to me.



Awesome! Thanks Paul.
Only reason I was that little bit unsure, was I showed a herp friend this pic, different snake whom I met at a reptile show I took my child to.
The lady claimed it was a Cape York Coastal. When I showed a herp friend who sold me the Spotted and Albino, he said there is no such thing as a Cape York Coastal. Its a coastal X jungle.

Thought this looked a lil like Archie my coastal that I just adopted and it made me that teeny bit unsure he wasn't full coastal.

I still don't get the whole, Cape York Coastal doesn't exist thing, but whatevs!

Whatever he is, I believe Coastal also, he is beautiful! In looks and disposition!



[doublepost=1526469508,1526469068][/doublepost]


cris said:


> At least put them through your ears or someone will post a meme like this


Unsure if this is friendly or nasty sarcasm. But whatevs, I get negative opinions IRL about my love of reptiles so expect it online too.

The reason I posted these pics, are these are the pics I sent my family of me with my new leather babies, to demonstrate they are fun, friendly, beautiful and harmless. They are the only pics I have. My family think every snake wants to KILL YOU. (Small minded, uneducated, ill exposed, immigrant mentality, combined with being flooded with lectures from Aussies when they first settled here from Europe, to watch out for the deadly snakes!! They were poor when they arrived, built on the outskirts of Melbourne, they didn’t have pythons 20 kms from city, so the houses they were building were around browns and tigers, so the warning was fair, but they think that applies to every snake) These photos were sent to them, trying to change their perception about my snakes and to educate them that I am not in danger and that not all snakes are harmful.

I dabble in photography, I can't wait to photograph them in natural light with my SLR - But its currently freezing here in Melbourne so these will have to do until I can load up better pics of my pets outside in Summer.

If my head in a photo of my snakes offends, just keep scrolling. 

Or if it's friendly sarcasm, all good. But yeah, you'll be seeing more of my head in my snake pics


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 16, 2018)

Lanea said:


> Cape York Coastal



Cape York just references a specific region.
Snakes from different areas can be of the same sub species but exhibit different colouring & patterns. 
You might have heard people reference Gosford Diamonds as these are known for their bright colouration and many carry a different pattern to Diamonds from other regions.


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## Lanea (May 16, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> i'd like a gtp, but dont have the space for a gtp setup
> 
> regarding the "poor keeping" of the pet shop, snakes don't need a light source, and pet shops will only feed them the minimum fortnightly, atleast the petshops (big names) ive been to, to keep costs down, as they generally dont breed their own but use the stuff they buy from breeders etc




Ok, I might clarify my comment.

I walked into a pet store WHO DONT specialise in reptiles. They sell fish and birds.
Years ago they sold reptiles and had people in store who knew Herp.

Unfortunately reptiles aren't big in our area, so they now only specialise in birds and fish, although they still have their reptile licence to trade.

3 years ago they sold a woman and her 2 little boys this coastal.
They got bored of it. When I say it had no light source, this was NOT AT THE PET SHOP

The man who worked there, said that the mum called the guy to come to her house to pick up the Coastal because her boys are over it, they don't feed it and it had no warmth or light. When the pet shop guy went to their house, he said it was in a tiny enclosure with no light or heat source and was looking hungry.

He fed it in the store a small wearner rat, which it took. Its 2 meters long and he felt it was a small feed for a 2 mtr python.
He has been thawing rats and trying to feed it, but he wasn't taking it. As they have no other snakes in the store, the rats after being thawed and rejected by the coastal were going into the bin.

He had it in store for 2 weeks with no interest from anyone and only took that 1 weaner in that time. When I walked in to buy pinkies for my albino and spotted, he said, ‘want a coastal for barely anything. We aren't set up to look after him, and my current staff have never even seen a snake close up because they are new and specialise in birds, and won't touch it or clean out cage, give water etc’. He says, 'handles like a dream but won't eat much and was kept in shocking conditions when I got him from the customers house'. The woman gave it back to the pet shop for free, and then I bought him for $50 and took on the challenge to look after him. I already had a ground dweller set up I inherited from HerpShop friends.

Hope this makes more sense about my comment, as I didn't mean to open a can of worms about feeding frequency and light source 

Also the guy who sold me the snake, knows a little but considers himself a novice also.

[doublepost=1526471171,1526470215][/doublepost]Oh, wait, here you go Cris.
A pic without my horrible head...


I have had them all for only a week.
So I took a snap or two when I first got them and am trying to let them settle and not over handle and take them out of their homes just for a pic, especially green boy, poor guy suffered enough, 7 hours in transit from QLD to MELB this week.

Freezing here in Melb. Can't wait to make them some basking branches so in Spring / Summer I can take them outside to photograph them properly.


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## cris (May 16, 2018)

Lanea said:


> Unsure if this is friendly or nasty sarcasm. But whatevs, I get negative opinions IRL about my love of reptiles so expect it online too.



If neutral is not an option, I would chose friendly. Just a meme I only saw recently, I will try it with blokes on hunting forums soon lol.


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## Delphy (May 16, 2018)

Beautiful snakes and one day will be able to get a GTP, they are lovely


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## Bluetongue1 (May 17, 2018)

@cris. You completely missed the mark on that one! That sort of attempt at humour needs to be targeted at an appropriate recipient. A new keeper asking critical question is definitely not appropriate. Something to bear in mind for the future…

@Lanea. The post form Cris was meant to be a humorous comparison of male versus female differences using photography as the vehicle – the males stay out of the pictures they take of objects, while females supposedly want their faces in the pictures of objects they photograph. I’ll bet money this particular meme was created by a male.

I love the photographs and believe having a beautiful lady such as yourself holding the animals only enhances the result, both in terms of aesthetics and being clearly indicative of the friendly, laid back nature of the snakes when in human company. Great job! 

Looking at the photos of the carpet, its body condition looks OK. It has the capacity to put on a little more weight, but not very much. It is certainly not emaciated. So Paul’s advice can be followed without you feeling worried about adverse effects on the reptile. Its body systems are geared to stop eating at this time of year and its body condition is well and truly sufficient to support that.

In terms of care required for any of your species, please do not hesitate to ask, even if you feel it’s a “dumb question”, as the majority of experienced members here are only here to share their wealth of practical knowledge and help others to be successful keepers as well.


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## Lanea (May 17, 2018)

@Bluetongue1 *THANK YOU!!!! *I really appreciate those words, and have had similar words sent to me via PM by other respected members here (you know who you are, wink)

The problem with such unsolicited, sexist comments, (even if intent is not such) it feeds the notion that ladies should stay away from snakes, especially pretty ones! It also feeds the notion that we can’t love and be proud of our pets the same way, others do who choose to keep cats, puppies, rabbits etc bc they’re from the *dark & dangerous realm* (cue creepy music)

All my girlfriends pose with their kitties and puppies and its ok, why is it not ok to do the same with a creature who IMO is far more magnificent - which I am sure all of us here agree on that. So it should actually make males happy to see women posing with their snakes, because in our era, instead of just the men trying to explain why they are incredible, fascinating and harmless, women are assisting in this and influencing others too, sometimes perhaps even to a more effective degree to their audience, than a man may be able to. (not by rule, depends on the audience of course)

The thing is (and I *REALLY* hope men with similar opinions as that MEME, whether they are meaning to be derogatory or just unaware what these comments are) really read this, because its a *VERY IMPORTANT INSIGHT *for those who may be unaware of the flow on effect that happens when a woman becomes interested in reptiles...

Since getting my 4 gorgeous pythons in the past fortnight, and posting pictures like this on social media, and sending text pics to friends introducing my gorgeous pythons, I have had 8 girl friends come over to meet them. People / women who HATE snakes but love me. They are feeling, holding, learning & even getting photos taken with them. These 8 women go to their circle of friends, their workplaces, their families and tell their people about their day and how they met and had a meet and greet with the most adorable friendly pythons. They are posting their snake pics on their social media and then all their friend get to see it and learn about it. It sets off a POSITIVE chain reaction that benefits our community as a whole.

Whether you are a (yep gonna use some sterotypes here) city slicker in an apartment with a snake, a breeder with 100 of them, country folk who welcome local pythons into their homes, a suburban family keeping a python in a garage, a drag queen who has a python and uses it in her weekend show for shock value, a tom boy girl who loves creepy crawlies, or in my case a champas drinking, make up wearing, glam girl who adores reptiles - together as a whole we are influencing and educating people in our circles.

Would a bunch of drag queen fans be as interested in a snake by being shown a pic of one? Perhaps not? My school mums? Def not!

A 38 yr old lady like myself photographed with a snake, may not interest some. But my 8 year old daughter is going to school daily talking about snakes, and how we should love them, and how her mummy has 4 & together we are going to look after them. She shows off her snake photos of her and her mummy holding and feeding our pythons. 25 kids in her class are now interested in her snakes and ask her for updates, as are THEIR PARENTS!! How great for the future generation. Just remember our reptile community is made up of all types. We all bring attention and education to these fascinating creatures in our OWN INDIVIDUAL way.

Would some of the school kids and school mums be as interested in our families snakes if I weren’t in the pic. TBH, Probably not. For a mum or a child, seeing a woman in a dress holding a snake is a ‘psychological endorsement’ that they are in fact safe and harmless. It's shallow but works. It actually helps break down the barrier that they are scary. So a pretty chick with a snake, should be welcomed even if you don't get it, because there is a bigger picture going on here!

*Check this for example: *I invited my next door neighbors children to come over and meet the snakes. My neighbor is from Africa and is deathy afraid bc she assimilates ALL snakes with *BLACK MAMBA* from her homeland. Again, not educated about our beautiful pythons. I invited her and her children over. She was literally sweating. She is relatively new to the country (5 yrs) I explained all about Aussie pythons. She has other African family up in Darwin who came through the refugee arrangement. They are all petrified of seeing a snake up there, which its only a matter of time before they do. My neighbor didn’t hold the snake. But came to look and feel its skin and after I assured her the pythons are safe she allowed her children to meet them and have a python hug.

She then emailed her family in Darwin showing them about 20 beautiful pics of her 5 children with Aussie snakes wrapped around them. See we all play our role in helping the reptile community. Whoever we share our pythons with shares their experience with others. Who knows, perhaps now, instead of putting a shovel through the head of a beautiful python out of fear, (again, a stereotype sorry) new immigrants related to my neighbor in Darwin, may be less fearful, admire the python from a distance and let it be on its merry way. That's what I like to think happens by teaching them about snakes. Her coming over to my house was initiated by me sending her a text with a python wrapped around me offering her children an opportunity to come and meet them. Had I have just sent a pic of a snake, no way would she have come over.







To be honest, having my daughter interested and her school mates in snakes is fabulous to me, but to me the greatest success was my husband who had a SNAKE PHOBIA allowing me to have them, then graduating to helping me clean their homes and feed them, then handling them little by little, and now enjoying them and fascinated by them. He comes home from work, kisses his kids and goes to each enclosure to see what my 4 pythons are up to. This started because, over the 12 years we have been together, any chance I get where I see a python, I have to know all about it, touch it hold it, talk to the owner about its behaviour, and wrap up encounter, by being wrapped up by the python for a posey photo for my snake pic collection. Over the years, he has seen that if his lipstick wearing, girlie, dress wearing, champagne drinking, high heeled, little 5 ft wife isn't afraid and adores these creatures and has *never* been bitten, then maybe he needs to be more open minded about snakes. And so hence, we now have 4 pythons.

The real kicker....

Here is a pic of him with a snake around his head. Yep, snake selfies arent just for chicks!

* Thumb to nose and tongue out to @cris* LOL - But we're all cool and thanks for the welcome, wink!


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## Buggster (May 17, 2018)

Beautiful snakes!
I’m hoping to get myself a GTP at the end of the year to add to my collection so I’m super jealous of your gorgeous boy.

Unfortunately not all of us can get a GTP the second we see them- I’ll be upgrading my license in September so I can keep one. Only a painful three years of waiting!

You’re going to get a lot of comments both in the real world and online for what you do. Some people just can’t imagine a woman being confident with any sort of reptile!
Heck, I’ve been asked why I bought ‘big’ snakes since I won’t be able to handle them when they grow up since I’ll be too scared of them. Umm... excuse me? 

People will want to tell you how to do things and that you’re doing everything wrong. Tell them to eff off and mind their own business. As long as you’re doing right by your animals, there shouldn’t be a problem!

And of course welcome to the wonderful world of herps! And don’t worry, your collection of 4 will grow to 40 before you even know it (seriously- I was told I was allowed *one* snake. 4 snakes and 4 geckos later... whoops xD)


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## cris (May 17, 2018)

I did not mean to be mean, was just a meme. There are also people like myself who do not seek to anthropomorphize snakes. It is important to consider diversity.



Lanea said:


> @Bluetongue1
> 
> *Check this for example: *I invited my next door neighbors children to come over and meet the snakes. My neighbor is from Africa and is deathy afraid bc she assimilates ALL snakes with *BLACK MAMBA* from her homeland.



That is probably a healthy starting position, plenty of Australian snakes are also potentially dangerous.


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## Lanea (May 17, 2018)

@cris - agree with ya on diversity, how boring if we were all the same aye?

And do respect your viewpoint re anthropomorphizining, and understand why it may be annoying for those that don’t do it.

Peace man 


Re the Black Mumba comment, it’s her only reference point about snakes, and my poor neighbour thought that all snakes in Australia were poisonous. She was terrified when she learned I had snakes and wanted to move out. Our kids play together and talk, so I thought it was important that instead of her looking for a new rental, I explain what a Python is. And yes, totally agree with you regarding poisonous aussie snakes. Explained to her that if her children see a snake they must not touch it, or even go near it as it’s likely to be poisonous. Showed her who to call (council / local snake catcher) if they see one so it can be removed safely as we live in a new estate near undeveloped land. Explained to the kids that while my snakes are not dangerous, others that are sometimes seen in the area *are* dangerous and are *not* for holding. Also showed them what to do if they see a snake while they’re playing and parents aren’t around.


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 17, 2018)

Not much I can say after reading your posts Lanea but you articulated your point perfectly.
While it is your thread I would just like to suggest that if anyone has a problem with your pics they only need to click on the home tab and they will be saved from having to see them.


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## Bl69aze (May 17, 2018)

Lanea said:


> @cris - agree with ya on diversity, how boring if we were all the same aye?
> 
> And do respect your viewpoint re anthropomorphizining, and understand why it may be annoying for those that don’t do it.
> 
> ...


I hope you mean that SHE thought snakes were “poisonous”, and that YOU know snakes are venomous not poisonous 


Easy way to remember; if you bite it and it makes you sick, it’s poisonous/ if it bites you and makes you sick, it’s venomous


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## Lanea (May 17, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> I hope you mean that SHE thought snakes were “poisonous”, and that YOU know snakes are venomous not poisonous
> 
> 
> Easy way to remember; if you bite it and it makes you sick, it’s poisonous/ if it bites you and makes you sick, it’s venomous


 

Naaaw shucks, been found out. Grammar and proofreading are my weak points... 

Probably bc I’m cooking dinner, looking after 3 kids, renovating, working FT, caring for pythons all while chatting on a forum via iPhone 

But point noted. Still have my L plates on!! Yes indeed you are correct, they are venomous not poisonous #blushing #NewbLingo


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## GBWhite (May 17, 2018)

Hi again Lanea,

I understand your intentions to educate your friends (and their friends) about snakes and applaud your enthusiasm but I'm going to be a bit brutal here. It's not my intention to offend, just to give you a little heads up out of genuine concern for the future welfare of your snakes. 

Allowing so many different people to handle you critters in the short period of time you have had them is not conducive to maintaining the animals in good health. As I mentioned in your other thread, it can possibly lead to serious health problems down the track and is more than likely contributing to why you're having trouble getting the Carpet to feed. Please, now that you've hopefully got letting your friends and neighbour handling them out of your system, let the animals be for a good period of time so they can adjust to you and their new surroundings. Albeit your good intention to prove to people that snakes are not as bad as thought by allowing them to take photos of them handling your snakes and, no matter how much a snake has been handled prior to acquisition, it does a snake no good at all to be constantly removed from their enclosures and thrust into the hands of a dozen or so different people for them to take photographs to post on public media sites at any time but, especially after recently being relocated to a new home. Nor is it good for then to be disturbed constantly on a daily basis to top up water or clean enclosures. Snakes do drink water but they acquire the majority of their fluids via the whole animals that they eat, so in fact they can quite easily survive by just offering water once a week and at this time of the year even once a fortnight. If the enclosure for your GPT is set up correctly then there should be no need to spray it daily, maybe once a week or every third day if the humidity drops but definitely not daily. 

You may not be aware but there are quite a number of ladies involved in educating the public about snakes who are quite competent in educating friends and the general public without placing them around their neck for photographs. The best way to educate anyone about snakes is to be a responsible keeper who can educate others by providing informative, relevant advice through continually educating themselves about snake behaviour both in their natural habitat and in suburban situation.

All the best with your critters.

Cheers,

George.


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## Lanea (May 17, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> Hi again Lanea,
> 
> I understand your intentions to educate your friends (and their friends) about snakes and applaud your enthusiasm but I'm going to be a bit brutal here. It's not my intention to offend, just to give you a little heads up out of genuine concern for the future welfare of your snakes.
> 
> ...



No not brutal. I can take it and respect the opinions and advice of others, as long as it is well intended and I sense it is from you. Not sure if you saw my other post on other thread to you, saying thank you and that I appreciated your advice. I also explained there that the snakes were introduced to people and photographed because I already needed to take them out of their enclosure for specific reasons, mentioned these in the other thread also, but you may not have seen my reply to you as yet. All the snakes are in separate rooms, in quiet spaces with minimal touching, bar the few occasions that I photographed, but they weren't taken out just for photo's if that makes sense. The coastal is the exception because he has unfortunately been over handled by the people who raised him. (I handled him twice in 8 days, so even so it wasn't excessive like I was taking them out every 5 minutes, or even daily for that matter) I have placed him into a spare, quiet room that doesn't get interruptions. The carpet had feeding problems whilst in the pet shop. I aim to be patient with him and haven't handled him, since the second day I got him.

Please be assured the snakes are NOT BEING TAKEN OUT of their enclosures simply for photographs. The other post explains, I had to change the GTPs perch from PVC to natural. So I let the kids see him while I had to take him out. I can see here I have ruffled feathers with my snake pics. I don't walk around my house with snakes around me taking selfies, but it seems that is the impression I have given with my pics. The snakes don't actually come out, they are settling, and I have implemented strategies so that I don't need to keep giving them fresh water daily. i.e.: Bigger bowls. Turkey basters, etc. The times that they were introduced to people was because I was already taking the snake out for reasons explained, in the other post. Most definitely didn't invite people to come over, and bring out my snakes for ****s and giggles and snake pics.

Re: GTP I set it up exactly as the breeder had his in QLD and spray with warm mist daily, as per instructions of breeder.

Regarding, women educators. I am very aware and familiar with our local educators and applaud them bc they do an incredible job. I am not trying to educate the world. Just my close circle of friends and children because of the misconceptions they had and fears they had about me owning pythons. I also run a business from home. Please be assured that I am not draping visitors with Pythons, like a Hawaiian Lei when they walk through my door. My snakes are all away from my children, under lock and key and are not to be touched. None are even within site in our main rooms, except GTP who is in a quiet part of the house. All others are away in separate rooms where no one goes, low traffic areas, so they can settle in. The pics that were taken were taken before putting the snakes into their new homes and the occasion when I had to change over that PVC pipe to a treated driftwood.

My comments re: women with snakes were specifically related to the Meme. Not trying to be a Martyr and say I am the woman who is going to be the face of snake education in Victoria.

I'm clearly pissing people off and people now incorrectly think I play with them every 5 mins, which is so far from who I am. Most of the time, I can't even see my snakes, bc they are in their hides, except for GTP who is a gorgeous green lump, who I leave alone and sit next to while reading a book or something....

I do feel I have started on the wrong foot.
I dunno, thinking maybe I should deactivate my account.


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## GBWhite (May 18, 2018)

Lanea said:


> I do feel I have started on the wrong foot.
> I dunno, thinking maybe I should deactivate my account.



No, I don't think you've pissed people off or that you have started on the wrong foot. Yes, I did read your reply and your reason but I think (at least in my case) that by stating you contacted 8 girlfriends and the neighbours and invited them over to hold the snakes as well as post pics of you all made up holding the snakes dressed in several different outfits might have contributed to giving the impression that as new acquisitions, they were being over handled (which by the way, and please don't take this the wrong way, I still believe they were). All things considered, to have let the snakes settle in for few weeks before inviting them around may have been a better option.

No need to deactivate your account either. In fact, being new to the hobby, it might pay to hang around where you can ask questions and get feedback from very, very experienced keepers who have have been around this game for a long, long time and hold a plethora of information and advice to share.

All the best.


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## Buggster (May 18, 2018)

Just a re handing thing:

In the first couple of months when your snake is still settling in, keeping handling to an absolute minimum is in the best interest of the snake- especially if they’re a problem feeder. Take them out, put them in a holding container/pillow case and return them when you’re done. 

While giving it to other people to hold may not seem like a huge issue, you’re inevitably prolonging how long the snake is out, and being handled by someone who isn’t a confident handler can be stressful to the snake.

Right now it’s winter- feeding is going to be down and so is actively. During this period, I touch my snakes as little as possible- they get a weekly health check when I change out their water, but other than that they are left to cool and cycle by themselves. If I were to get them out and wake them up, they would become active again- and they would use their energy stores. Since they’re not feeding, using up stores in their body before spring can be downright dangerous to them.

Spring/summer is a whole new story though. My Stimmie is a sweetheart and I could easily have him out for hours- watched LOTR with him curled around my neck. He doesn’t stress or freak out easily. If someone wants to see a snake, I’m always reaching for him first- he’s small and doesn’t mind being passed around.

My Woma is a bit different- still a sweet snake, but once he’s had enough handling he’ll let you know. Obviously I never want to push him to the point where he does stress, so I keep handling short. I do bring him out if people want to see him, but I’m always very aware of what he wants and not what the people want. Im not making him stay a second longer than he wants.

My Diamond is again a whole new snake. I don’t let people handle him period as he is still such a skittish snake. He’s improved in leaps and bounds, but he does stress so easily it’s not in his best interest to be handled by someone inexperienced.

Neighbours kids love my snakes, but we’ve got very firm rules about how to touch them and how to ask to touch. Right now I’m not letting them come disturb any of the snakes since it is in that autumn/winter period. In warmer months I will let them have a hold of the Stimmie, and let them pet the Woma.

Taking the snake out for the sake of photos isn’t necessarily a bad thing- most snakes do enjoy coming out of their enclosures to explore and get a bit of fresh air, but it’s not something I would do with new or nonfeeding animals.

Get to know your animals before introducing other people into the equation. You are your snakes advocate and voice- but if you don’t know what they’re trying to say things are inevitably going to go wrong


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## Bl69aze (May 20, 2018)

Looks like she left


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## vampstorso (May 20, 2018)

It's a shame people don't feel welcome here when we want the site to grow.


I sent her a message and I hope she feels comfortable to come back.


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## Bluetongue1 (May 21, 2018)

One point that seems to have been missed here is the reactions of the snakes when handled. If a snake is not comfortable and feels stressed by being handled, it will show it. It will attempt to escape, often striking or recoiling at minor movement stimuli. This was not in evidence so any stress incurred must have been pretty minimal.

Handling a snake is not a natural experience that it seeks. However, snakes have the capacity to adjust to it. Whether one believes that usually depends on which side of the fence you stand – a handler or a non-handling advocate. I have seen a number of different mobile zoos/reptile educators where their pythons and lizards are handled by the audience, often simply to pose for a photo. The Hawkesbury Herp Society run a photo booth at their annual expo - for people holding or draped with reptiles. Where these events run all day, the reptiles used are rotated in shifts to ‘give them a break’, the same as for the humans working there. Despite the frequency and duration of these animals being handled by total strangers, they do not stop feeding etc. and remain healthy. 

The prevailing school of thought here is to gradually ease getting animals used to human interaction. I don’t think spending less than 30 seconds two or three times a week to provide fresh water is going to have any significant detrimental effect on that. An interesting alternative was told to me by a very well-respected keeper who has taipans in his collection. Taipans are renowned for being highly reactive around humans. They do, however, get accustomed to humans and have been described as “big puppies” once they get to this stage. This person places new and highly reactive taipans in a glass cabinet in a high traffic area of the house. They start out arcing up at every movement but within a few days have learned to ignore these. He tells me it takes less than a week for them to settle and this makes feeding and cleaning so much easier and safer for him. …Food for thought.

@Buggster. Your heart is in the right place but… Why do you feel the need to do a weekly “health check” and what aspects of health do you check? This seems contradictory your advice to leave snakes alone at this time of year (which is still autumn and not yet winter). New acquisitions from another keeper do not need 2 months to settle in or did you mean 2 _weeks_. The positive points made are that individual snakes differ and to learn to ‘read’ your snakes and tailor what you do with them accordingly.
[doublepost=1526835872,1526834956][/doublepost]


Bl69aze said:


> Looks like she left


 Jumping to incorrect conclusions yet again. 

She is here but not posting. Would you bother posting after being hammered based on false assumptions and then being hammered again after explaining in detail the responsible approach that she had taken?


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## Bl69aze (May 21, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> One point that seems to have been missed here is the reactions of the snakes when handled. If a snake is not comfortable and feels stressed by being handled, it will show it. It will attempt to escape, often striking or recoiling at minor movement stimuli. This was not in evidence so any stress incurred must have been pretty minimal.
> 
> Handling a snake is not a natural experience that it seeks. However, snakes have the capacity to adjust to it. Whether one believes that usually depends on which side of the fence you stand – a handler or a non-handling advocate. I have seen a number of different mobile zoos/reptile educators where their pythons and lizards are handled by the audience, often simply to pose for a photo. The Hawkesbury Herp Society run a photo booth at their annual expo - for people holding or draped with reptiles. Where these events run all day, the reptiles used are rotated in shifts to ‘give them a break’, the same as for the humans working there. Despite the frequency and duration of these animals being handled by total strangers, they do not stop feeding etc. and remain healthy.
> 
> ...


Her profile picture was removed, I thought that meant she had deleted her account ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Pauls_Pythons (May 21, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Her profile picture was removed, I thought that meant she had deleted her account ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Maybe if the forum was a nicer place where newbies could get easy answers without the need for criticism they may not feel the need to hide. We were all new to the hobby once and I'm fairly confident we all made a few mistakes along the way. Social media give new comers to the hobby the opportunity to not make those same mistakes.


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## SpottedPythons (May 21, 2018)

Just as a quick question: Are there any states where GTPs are allowed on a Basic (R1 equivalent) license? Cause here in NSW there's no way you'd be able to get a GTP as a first snake.


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## vampstorso (May 21, 2018)

.


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## Lanea (May 21, 2018)

Not gone - Won’t be going
Did delete Avatar, bc maybe people thought I was a dumb chick with no right to play with snakes. I’ve replaced it bc I shouldn't have allowed myself to be intimidated and remove it to begin with because I am proud of who I am!
We have all made rookie errors with our reptiles. I’ve definitely made mine and will probably make a few more 
GTP in melb is a level 2. My first snake actually was a spotted. GTP was the last I acquired within a 2 week period. I’ve been around snakes 15 years, first time they are in my name
Re: Stress on the snake, lol I literally can open my coastals glass door and he slides onto my body. I’ve adopted/rescued him and he was raised over-handled
*Re: Anthropomorphism* - Our big hero Irwin did it more than anyone, ‘Big girl, darling, sweet heart, gorgeous’ Re: All kinds of incredible creatures...

@Bluetongue1 @Pauls_Pythons @vampstorso @Bl69aze @Buggster Thank you for your support in the forum and or via PM - Blessings
*If anyone wants to give advice it’s welcomed. *BUT please read my well detailed previous posts prior. It’s more than likely that anything you want to address has already been explained.

Was going to leave, but thought this place offeres valuable information I can use and I’ve aleady made new friends. Besides as they say, ‘you can’t please all of the people all of the time, only some of the people some of the time’

Gives no one the right to be belligerent though because they raise their snakes differently.

A bit abt me: I’m also a very busy mother of a child with an intellectual disability and cerebral palsy. So don’t worry, if I’m not here I’m not sooking in a corner because someone critiqued my post, I’m just busy being super mum! (Jokes - He is a super kid, I’m blessed to have. He teaches me more about life than I could ever teach him)

Cheers!! Have a great day all - It’s all water under the bridge. If I am going to continue being here I need to accept the fact it a community of differing opinions.
[doublepost=1526858361][/doublepost]


vampstorso said:


> I think some states just make you pay a higher fee tier for harder animals more so than needing to prove experience?
> 
> Could be wrong, certainly don't take me for gospal.


In Vic you can start on a license 2, you’re right. Just a higher fee. (In Vic anyway) You don’t need to hold level 1 for a period of time first


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## GBWhite (May 21, 2018)

It's good to see that you've decided to hang around and seeking advice already regarding your GTP. Nor should you feel intimidated. You'll find that here, just like anywhere else, there is a mixed bag of members. Some posts may come across a bit harsh, others compassionate and some direct so can I suggest that the adage, "take criticism constructively" may be a worthwhile consideration. 

I appreciate that you may have been around snakes for some time but when it comes to keeping them it's a whole new ball game. And yes we've all made rookie mistakes and a lot of the knowledge you'll to get from experienced keepers here is because they have learnt from those mistakes. Most of the older, experienced keepers "cut their teeth" catching and keeping wild snakes, some as far back as 50 or 60+ years ago, and were involved in pioneering a lot of the current husbandry techniques in use today. You'll also come to realise that a lot are also quite knowledgeable regarding snake behaviour. They'll offer the advice based from either making those mistakes themselves or knowing others who have in the hope that the can assist newbies like yourself avoid going down the same path. So a lot of advice you'll get from the older members isn't based on opinion but from either personal hands on experience, many, many discussions with other experienced long time keepers or through accessing literature related to specific subjects on keeping. If you take what's offered on board you'll lean a hell of a lot.

You might find that a lot of the advice given previously was based on your detailed explanation. I'll add that the "lol" comment in the above post relating to stress is a bit unwarranted and a bit disrespectful coming from someone so new to the hobby. Snakes do suffer from stress, it can be a result of overhandling, not being provided with the correct husbandry or simply by being disturbed unnecessarily when all they want to do is chill out. Snakes can also suffer injuries when not handled correctly. In many cases symptoms related to both stress and injury aren't displayed until many moons down the track and often with severe consequences.

In regard to anthropomorphism - FYI (and despite what someone may try and have you believe or what one may think) snakes don't have the mental capacity to bond with their keepers. They are primitive animals with a very small primitive brain that have served them with surviving for thousands of years without developing further. They don't possess the ability to display emotion or crave companionship. Being captive or wild, all they are interested in is survival.


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## Lanea (May 21, 2018)

Definitely a generation gap thing going on here, and I mean that in the most respectful way, and it's my actual fault. The lol comment, may most definitely seem over confident and cocky and most certainly is not my intention. It's actually bought on by me and my problem with not thinking about how my message comes across and always in a rush and expecting a reader is on the same page as me re: context. I do need to be more attentive to my articulation and the impression I give. I wasn't meaning "LOL, YEAH RIGHT, it doesn't stress them, I do this or that and its no problem" As I have explained a few times, I adopted a coastal who has been over handled. I can't open the door without him coming towards me. When I wrote that, (although I now see how I was unclear) I was thinking back to occasions where I have put water in his bowl and he's tried to slide out on my arm, and I've said "Lol, No Archie, (Yes, I talk to my snakes) I'm giving you water not a hold". He has been VERY over handled since a hatchie. I am therefore trying to leave him alone as much as possible as explained in other posts. 'Lol' - wasn't saying 'yeah right snake isn't stressed', or 'pfft what would you know, lol, doesn't stress out my snake' - However I can see that context was undetected and perhaps seen as mocking, but can assure you George, it wasn't my intention. I am a very respectful individual, and think I have said in this thread or perhaps another, that I have been around snakes at HerpShop for 15 years but very different to being an owner and absolutely consider myself as someone on their L plates. I have been them in what I refer to as a 'casual manner' caring for them daily is a different responsibility, one which I understand needs to be done with long term health and wellbeing considerations.

What I did mean, is the coastal has been so over handled, he moves towards me as though he is expecting me to handle him. I have never seen a snake come toward you, I've only seen snakes having to be retrieved to be handled. It's still quite surprising to me.

Anyways, I am incredibly respectful of the Herp veterans here and it is the only reason I have stayed, because I value the vast wealth of knowledge the forum brings. I am not making light of my rookie errors either.

Re: Anthropomorphism.. It's all getting cloudy here and we are probably starting to split hairs over words, but I guess I'm more talking about calling them my babies, and darlings, my python family, etc. Which someone commented negatively on and then edited. I am completely aware that I may love my snakes but they will never love me but perhaps tolerate only because their primal needs are being met, and even then at times if too interfered with can even sabotage their primal needs because of stress (hunger strike, etc) I completely understand that reptiles lack conscious mind, and their whole lives are run by their subconscious, they don't consciously think or make decisions and therefore we can never tell whether are 'thinking' - Was just saying, Irwin was an anthropocentric individual who would tell us what they would think and feel, and refer to them by warm fuzzy adjectives and he is our big hero.

Anyway not looking for an argument. Not why I signed here, definitely. So I will be more careful what I post. If you know me in person, you will know that I am not arrogant and love to learn. I guess because of the previous pages in this thread, I have my back up and feel I need to prove myself. Which I don't. I'm going to stick closer to herp discussion and less about thoughts/feelings.

Actually the advice you gave me on the overhanding, was taken on board and I even went to lengths to move my coastal to our office which is rarely entered, to give him privacy and a quiet room. So he can be left alone for a while and settle in. Not even going to bother him with attempts of a feed - He just needs his space to settle from trauma.

Peace though - Meant no disrespect to anyones opinion or to my coastal - And thank you @GBWhite for your genuine well intended advice re: settling them in.


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## Bl69aze (May 21, 2018)

I think you’re mistaking the *coming to the door to be handled*with “ah, smells, let’s investigate.”
My coastal does the same thing, as soon as I open the door he pops his head out of hide and comes to me till I push him away. Sometimes he insists to come back, sometimes he will put his face right up to me for like 20seconds and go off his merry way, usually out the door because that’s more exciting than his tank.

Maybe I’m wrong though


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## Lanea (May 21, 2018)

Yeah half the time I think this too, its a smell thing. Sometimes he wraps around my arm.


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## Bl69aze (May 21, 2018)

Lanea said:


> Yeah half the time I think this too, its a smell thing. Sometimes he wraps around my arm.


Next time you open it up, put a new smell in the enclosure, I was recommended and dabbled my finger in canned cat food and rubbed in random places of tank, and he spent hours investigating, no chunky bits, just juices (make sure to clean it or it will stink after a day)

Make sure not to use stuff like rats or mice for smell as their is a chance they’ll try eat what ever you put the smell on


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## Bluetongue1 (May 21, 2018)

Rick Shine’s research crew have shown that snakes (at least some species at this stage) have a knowledge of where their various retreats are in their home range. They are able to travel directly from one to another. Whether they are following well marked scent trails or memorising landmarks, they at least know where they want to go. To find useable retreats requires snakes to investigate their environment. This would be an in-built behaviour, exercised when they are not threatened or stressed by anything in their immediate surrounds i.e. not feeling the need to escape. 

Pythons that spend at least a percentage of their time in trees will, at times, climb up their owner/handler and perch on top of them. Perhaps they feel this is one of their safe refuges?


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## Bl69aze (May 21, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Rick Shine’s research crew have shown that snakes (at least some species at this stage) have a knowledge of where their various retreats are in their home range. They are able to travel directly from one to another. Whether they are following well marked scent trails or memorising landmarks, they at least know where they want to go. To find useable retreats requires snakes to investigate their environment. This would be an in-built behaviour, exercised when they are not threatened or stressed by anything in their immediate surrounds i.e. not feeling the need to escape.
> 
> Pythons that spend at least a percentage of their time in trees will, at times, climb up their owner/handler and perch on top of them. Perhaps they feel this is one of their safe refuges?


Thanks for extending what I said


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## GBWhite (May 21, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Rick Shine’s research crew have shown that snakes (at least some species at this stage) have a knowledge of where their various retreats are in their home range. They are able to travel directly from one to another. Whether they are following well marked scent trails or memorising landmarks, they at least know where they want to go. To find useable retreats requires snakes to investigate their environment. This would be an in-built behaviour, exercised when they are not threatened or stressed by anything in their immediate surrounds i.e. not feeling the need to escape.
> 
> Pythons that spend at least a percentage of their time in trees will, at times, climb up their owner/handler and perch on top of them. Perhaps they feel this is one of their safe refuges?



Hi Mike,

I've spoken to Rick about this and assisted some of his researches undertaking this type of work on many past occasions. The research teams don't follow each individual snake to see what paths they take and as such haven't got a clue if they travel directly from one spot to another. All the work is done using telementry to locate each individual specimen and it just so happens that they have located specimens in the exact same location during ongoing research. They don't know if they travelled over the same route, moved directly from one spot to another or how long it has taken them to get from one spot to another. Generally snakes will travel as little as possible and as I'm sure you're aware the amount of ground that covers their home range depends on the size of the snake, metabolic needs, population density and the availability of resources (food, water and shelter) and in some cases even the season, so if all this is contained within 10sq metres, 100sq metres or over a couple of kilometres that will be it's home range. Given all species have limited vision, some are nocturnal and others are sit and wait strategists or crepuscular it appears pretty obvious they don't recognise landmarks as suggested but follow scent trails, either their own and those left by others of the same species. It's also not uncommon to locate individual specimens of the same species utilizing the exact same retreat as others have done on previous occasions. (For example;- the exact same rock, rock exfoliate, crevice, tree hollow, log, sheet of iron, debris, barn and roofs of both old abandoned and new homes etc, etc on separate occasions often weeks, months and even years apart). At other times it isn't uncommon to discover two, three or more all using the same shelter site at the same time. I've even come across communal eggs laying sites with literally hundreds of new and old eggs that have no doubt been utilized by individuals of the same species over long periods of time.

Nice thought that pythons might climb on top of their owners/handlers because they feel safe there but personally I don't believe that it has an association with the person and more to do with a natural instinct to get off the ground to seek refuge as high of the ground as is immediately possible.

Cheers,

George.


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## pythoninfinite (May 22, 2018)

Not sure why this hasn't been mentioned before, but there is wisdom in not allowing your snakes within striking distance of your face, regardless of how placid they may seem. While the chance of one of them biting you may seem fairly remote, it's much better to cop a bite on your arm or hand than anywhere near your face. It's an absolute rule for me, resulting from ill-judged silliness when I was a lot younger. You should also ensure that anyone you allow to handle them is aware that this is a no-no.

Jamie


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## Bluetongue1 (May 23, 2018)

Dear George,

In using the term “directly” in reference to moving from one refuge to another, It was not intended to convey the meaning of a “in a straight in”. My fault for trying to be too brief. It was meant to convey utilising the most as convenient track, as a human bushwalker would do. My apologies for that error.

Despite the shortfalls of radiotelemetry, it still allowed researchers to determine the precise location of animals, and where they might move one day to the next and thereby the distance they have travelled from one refuge to the next.

Your opinions on snake behaviour are stated as predicated on the limited capacity and capabilities of the “small, reptilian brains” they possess. From this you point out their limited if non-existent capacity to learn by experience and alter their behaviour accordingly. What puzzles me then is how is a snake capable of having a home range. Surely they need to learn what’s in it and where. If they don’t learn where various things are then they may as well wander around randomly, as there would be no specific advantage to staying in one area. They clearly have an ability to learn and alter their behaviour accordingly. The question is not whether they have the ability… but to what extent?

Cheers


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## GBWhite (May 23, 2018)

Hi Mike.

Radiotelementry does allow researchers to determine the precise location of snakes and determine the distance they travel from one refuge to the next but only during the period they spend tracking the animal which as a rule is restricted to just a period of several days at the most and due to such things as time restraints, assistance and funding, ongoing field research is generally undertaken weeks and even months apart and even then they don't restrict their time to concentrate on the movement of one single animal. During these periods in the field they try to gain data from as many animals as possible so after locating one animal and recording the data they move onto the next. Outside these periods they haven't got a clue. Sure the data collected provides evidence that they use the same refuge at times but it doesn't provide concise data in relation to their movements, route taken, distance travelled, frequency of occupation or whether they have "learned" to head to a particular refuge or just end up here by following a scent trail. In other situations where a snake has been located utilizing a shelter site, unless it has been previously recorded they have no idea if it has been utilized on a regular basis or randomly selected. Their conclusions are based on limited data and using that data they hypothesise on the distance travelled on a regular basis and frequency they utilize a particular refuge.

As I'm sure you're aware a snake's home range isn't restricted to a geometrical shape and as mentioned above if all the resources they require to survive are available within a specific area why would there be a need for them to wander around randomly in search of said resources. In fact it's highly probable that it would be detrimental to their wellbeing, albeit to their existence to do so as is evident when they are forced to relocate due to either natural or unnatural events that affect habitat and microhabitat within the areas they occupy.

Do they have the ability to learn and if they do then to what extent? Personally, I don't know but based on what I know and what I've read I doubt it very much. I'm of the opinion that they rely heavily on their acute instinctive sense of smell, that has served them with survival for so long, to familiarize themselves and guide them about within an area they occupy as well as to locate suitable food items and identify and react to potential threats.

It's an interesting topic and it's pretty obvious that we differ in our opinion regarding their ability to learn and I appreciate reading your opinion and input. So I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree until such time as someone does the research and provides concise evidence either way.

Cheers.


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## pythoninfinite (May 24, 2018)

Just as a follow-up to what George has said with regard to scent trails - I know from the behaviour of my Jack Russells when there is a snake in the area, and they are very quick to pick up the scent of a snake when it has been on the grass recently. They invariably know if there is a snake in the trees in the garden at night - unless I was looking, I wouldn't have a clue, but they can pick them up very quickly and usually sniff intensively around the trunk. So I'm sure snakes are equally tuned to scent trails on the ground as well.

Jamie


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