# Will you be Crossing your subspecies??



## NCHERPS (May 7, 2008)

In light of the recent thread, I thought it would be interesting to do a poll and get a snap shot of members views on how they feel about crossing subspecies today or in the near future.

Please be honest in your answers when polling.

Cheers Neil


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## hornet (May 7, 2008)

If i saw a very interesting one i might be temped to keep them but would never breed them myself. I have no problem with it as long as it is done responsibly and the young are sold as what they are.


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## caustichumor (May 7, 2008)

I have seen some very nice crossbred pythons, However I would never keep one, I think that there are enough people mixing subspecies "by accident". I am happy enough watching the freakshow on US Hybrid sites....


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## Nephrurus (May 7, 2008)

I've not seen any "very nice" crossbreeds. What some people are doing with "pure" lines is amazing. Cross breeding is a cop out. Just because you can't get decent animals to breed from or are too lazy to put in the leg (or phone) work to find exactly what they want doesn't mean you have to breed whatever motley assortment of nothing animals you've got in your ho-hum collection. 

That ought to get things fired up a bit. 



-H


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 7, 2008)

I was given this x bred snake ( m.d and brissie and darwin who knows what else) last year because the owner could not get it to eat..
I have no intentions to breed from it and i wont be selling it as it seems to have a great disposition and i do want to see what it looks like as it matures.
Also , by keeping it in my own collection i am ensuring it wont be bred with anything else.
The breeder of this particular snake is a member of this site. No so much a x breed but an assortment of coastals from different areas...Does this count?


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## caustichumor (May 7, 2008)

Well put Nephrurus, I should have termed it "different looking"in place of nice. And I agree wholeheartedly with your copout statement,
The line bred animals available these days are incredible, and the amount of time that went into producing some of these genetic variables is nearing half a lifetime. It's good that there aren't too many votes at the top of the poll....


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## slacker (May 7, 2008)

I have no intention of doing so at this point in time, but I'd be surprised if it didn't become more widespread and accepted in the future. How far into the future, I wouldn't guess, but I would be surprised if it never happens.

At the moment everyone seems to be creaming their pants over albinos and other morphs, but what will happen when these become more commonplace? I suspect people will begin experimenting more and more over here to see what aesthetically pleasing mutts they can produce.

I also believe that the anti-hybridization movement here is based more on pack-mentality than any real reasons. It's almost social-conditioning. Most of the people here who are pro-hybridization will sit quietly on the sidelines instead of voicing their opinion, because they will undoubtedly get slammed by the masses, so you're always going to hear more from the naysayers and that in turn encourages more people entering the hobby to take a dim view on such things.

Personally, I've been somewhat torn on this subject. I don't think hybridization is inherently bad. What concerns me is that if it does become more widespread and commonplace, more and more mutts will be passed off as pure this or that, which is a scary thought. If people were always honest (and well-informed) about what they sold/traded to others, that would be a non-issue and I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.


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## BT (May 7, 2008)

well, I will never do it and never even own one, there are plenty of great looking snakes out their when they are pure, no need to cross which just ends up in butt ugly snakes imo


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## Southside Morelia (May 7, 2008)

Honestly that's a stunner ssssnakeman.
My hat's off to you to be honest about what you keep and to quote you "Also , by keeping it in my own collection i am ensuring it wont be bred with anything else."Your a trooper and doing a great justice to the community! "i do want to see what it looks like as it matures." unquote. The old "research" excuse, just like the Japanese who slaughter Minki whales for research purposes! LOL
Mate, not having a go, atleast you have the balls to post a pic of a so called X, well done...
But the excuses/disclaimer LMAO...now that ruined it...lol
Anyway, that's a good looking animal...mongrel as some people may call it!
Good Luck and keep us posted, I for one won't flame you, I too would like to see how it progresses.!





ssssnakeman said:


> I was given this x bred snake ( m.d and brissie and darwin who knows what else) last year because the owner could not get it to eat..
> I have no intentions to breed from it and i wont be selling it as it seems to have a great disposition and i do want to see what it looks like as it matures.
> Also , by keeping it in my own collection i am ensuring it wont be bred with anything else.
> The breeder of this particular snake is a member of this site. No so much a x breed but an assortment of coastals from different areas...Does this count?


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## RedEyeGirl (May 7, 2008)

true i would keep one just to save it from being bred again and again and again


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## Ramsayi (May 7, 2008)

What about everyone classes all Morelia as the same thing and throws everything together?We could then just have one type of Morelia maybe we could call it Morelia.s.mutt.

At least that way everyone would know what they actually have in their collections and there would be no need to keep too many like we currently do if we want all the different types currently on offer.NPWS paperwork would be a breeze as well just one species code.

Another thing that amuses me no end is that some of the more well known breeders (you know who you are and others have taken note) are crossing stuff but are doing it quietly,even going as far as telling potential buyers to "keep it to yourself" as to where it came from.Now if they feel the need to cross things and in their own eyes see nothing wrong with it then why be so secretive about it? Have the balls to at least stand by the decision you made!


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## Bung-Eye (May 7, 2008)

nah, purity for me


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## smacdonald (May 7, 2008)

If you knowingly cross your subspecies in Queensland you are technically committing an offence under the Nature Conservation Act.



> The holder must not breed a mutation or hybrid of a restricted bird or of any species of reptile or amphibian.



The above quote refers to the holder of a recreational wildlife licence. I don't know if it applies to holders of commercial, exhibitors and demonstrators licences. The Act doesn't provide a definition of 'hybrid', so you'd have to assume they're using the term with its general definition: crossing reptiles of different taxa.

I don't know of any cases where people have been prosecuted for crossing subspecies. I've also never spoken to anyone in the EPA about this, so they may have a different view than the one I've provided.

I've also never heard of anyone being prosecuted for breeding albinos (which, according to the quote above, is also against the rules).

Has anyone ever had the EPA clarify any of this?

Stewart


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## slacker (May 7, 2008)

Yeah, Stewart, I remember reading that a while back and wondering exactly how they defined "hybrid."

Out of curiosity, what are the laws governing this (or not) in other states?


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## Tatelina (May 7, 2008)

Nephrurus said:


> I've not seen any "very nice" crossbreeds. What some people are doing with "pure" lines is amazing. Cross breeding is a cop out. Just because you can't get decent animals to breed from or are too lazy to put in the leg (or phone) work to find exactly what they want doesn't mean you have to breed whatever motley assortment of nothing animals you've got in your ho-hum collection.


*cheers*
Hooray! The best post I've read all day!


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## Kersten (May 7, 2008)

NCHERPS said:


> In light of the recent thread, I thought it would be interesting to do a poll and get a snap shot of members views on how they feel about crossing subspecies today or in the near future.
> 
> Please be honest in your answers when polling.
> 
> Cheers Neil



I have no interest in knowingly crossing subspecies.


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## WombleHerp (May 7, 2008)

i would DEFINATELY not breed them, i prefer the 'classic' i think PURE blood is better then a hybrid.
however,
if the specimen was a really good looking snake, whether interesting, pretty, different, etc i would keep it. but NOT breed it.

thats my say 

Nat


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## ytamarin (May 7, 2008)

Definitely not.
In fact, I prefer the look of snakes as they appear in the wild - their natural colours and patterns - rather than anything special or out of the ordinary.
I personally would never purchase a python that had an appearance that I thought would be rare to find in the wild.


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## cockney red (May 7, 2008)

More or less sums me up.


yellowtamarin said:


> Definitely not.
> In fact, I prefer the look of snakes as they appear in the wild - their natural colours and patterns - rather than anything special or out of the ordinary.
> I personally would never purchase a python that had an appearance that I thought would be rare to find in the wild.


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## smacdonald (May 7, 2008)

For the record, I don't give a rat's if people breed hybrids (at any taxonomical level). The animals are in captivity and, unless the health and well-being of the animal is compromised, I don't see why it matters. Sure, people can then start selling hybrid animals as pure-bred ones, but there's nothing stopping them from doing that now.

I also think that crossing subspecies is very similar to crossing a coastal carpet from north Queensland with a coastal carpet from south Queensland. You can legally do that because they're on paper as the same species, but the event would never occur in the wild. So what's the difference between crossing a diamond python with a coastal carpet? That's not a rhetorical question - I'm happy for an anti-hybrid person to enlighten me.

While we're here, can anyone actually offer a definition of 'subspecies'? (Again, that's not a rhetorical.)

And, also for the record, I have no interest in knowingly breeding hybrids.

Stewart


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## Ramsayi (May 7, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> LOL, your right to a certain extend although sarcasm has crept in a bit there! You hit the nail on the head with NPWS paperwork being a breeze....and admistrating the paperwork from their end will also be a breeze....understand?
> Who are these breeders who say that...ie, "these are X's, but keep it quiet" expose them, as I am curious myself from that comment! Or don't you have the Balls to put your money where your mouth is?
> Have you purchased from the alleged breeders?
> Your in the know, enlighten us, or PM me with the breeders YOU know of, or is it here say and rumour? OR do you want to purchase from them in the future?



Keep fishing mate although nothing is biting.On the subject of have I purchased from these people in the past or future the answer is NO.Anyone who involves themselves in breeding this crap is on my never to deal with list.


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## thals (May 7, 2008)

4th option for me, keep things pure... Though I do still respect and appreciate the animals that are of crossed lineage, it would DEFINETLY NOT be something I'd encourage by breeding such animals on purpose.

I believe cross breeding snakes should be illegal in all states, not just QLD, just MHO though.

Cheers everyone 8)


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## cockney red (May 7, 2008)

No! we dont understand mr know it all. Stop alluding, and spit it out. 


Southside Morelia said:


> LOL, your right to a certain extend although sarcasm has crept in a bit there! You hit the nail on the head with NPWS paperwork being a breeze....and administrating the paperwork from their end will also be a breeze....understand?
> Who are these breeders who say that...ie, "these are X's, but keep it quiet" expose them, as I am curious myself from that comment! Or don't you have the Balls to put your money where your mouth is?
> Have you purchased from the alleged breeders?
> Your in the know, enlighten us, or PM me with the breeders YOU know of, or is it here say and rumour? OR do you want to purchase from them in the future?


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## amazonian (May 7, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> LOL, your right to a certain extend although sarcasm has crept in a bit there! You hit the nail on the head with NPWS paperwork being a breeze....and administrating the paperwork from their end will also be a breeze....understand?
> Who are these breeders who say that...ie, "these are X's, but keep it quiet" expose them, as I am curious myself from that comment! Or don't you have the Balls to put your money where your mouth is?
> Have you purchased from the alleged breeder
> Your in the know, enlighten us, or PM me with the breeders YOU know of, or is it here say and rumour? OR do you want to purchase from them in the future?


 
It is quite obvious that breeders are selling x bred snakes as pures. You can see it quite clearly just by searching through some of the posts here. There has been a multitude of "check out my new _*add species here* _" threads where the (usually a new keeper) thinks they just scored a great purebred species when infact it was quickly pointed out by numerous members that it was a mongrel/mutt.


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## ad (May 7, 2008)

Guess which one I picked,
Keep them pure, It is our Australian wildlife we are entrusted to keep on license.
If you can't respect that - then maybe you should just get a cat, dog, rabbit etc.
We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,
improve on it here - we are 20 years behind them on hybridizing but 20 years in front of them for Pure animals.
If they ever allow legal exporting of our reptiles - guess which ones the yanks will want??


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## whiterabbit (May 7, 2008)

Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species. 
As a side question, what kind of sub-species are out there that are under debate? does this generally refer to the genus Morelia? 

Cheers
WR


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## rockman (May 7, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> What about everyone classes all Morelia as the same thing and throws everything together?We could then just have one type of Morelia maybe we could call it Morelia.s.mutt.
> 
> At least that way everyone would know what they actually have in their collections and there would be no need to keep too many like we currently do if we want all the different types currently on offer.NPWS paperwork would be a breeze as well just one species code.
> 
> Another thing that amuses me no end is that some of the more well known breeders (you know who you are and others have taken note) are crossing stuff but are doing it quietly,even going as far as telling potential buyers to "keep it to yourself" as to where it came from.Now if they feel the need to cross things and in their own eyes see nothing wrong with it then why be so secretive about it? Have the balls to at least stand by the decision you made!



Ramsayi , are you saying that there is well known breeders out there breeding cross-breeds .

SHAME SHAME SHAME . 

Do you think that they will stand up to be counted ? , i doubt it . 
I heard that there was going to be alot of albino cross( with what-ever is in the room at the time ) things coming out of the woodwork from last years breeding . Maybe they where all "accidents " . LOL


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## Southside Morelia (May 7, 2008)

Of course you wouldn't...LOL... I can only surmise from what is happening in the hobby and what is happening with Licensing changes and talking with people WHO ARE ALOT MORE EDUCATED than yourself in this field.
Let's wait and see what happens, IF I am wrong and things stay as is, I will be the first person to admit my foresight and information given to me to date was incorrect...and I expect you to say, well you were right if it happens...mutual respect hey!
Cheers
scott.


cockney red said:


> No! we dont understand mr know it all. Stop alluding, and spit it out.


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## ihaveherps (May 7, 2008)

Stimsons are split taxonomically into two..... antaresia stimsoni and antaresia stimsoni orientalis.


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## amazonian (May 7, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> Not fishing Ramsayi and I want to keep the debate civil, back up your allegations with fact or don't say it! Simple!
> We all have similar views and opinions on this topic as we all don't want to taint our hobby like it has OS...but remember the=se are our Native specie, in the US and Europe they aren't and we don't export to them anymore anyway!
> Sooo, I know for a fact that countless top breeders will keep breeding pure local sub-species in the future...we love them and personally, that's all I keep, but you can't stop people from x breeding...so from an educated standpoint it has to be managed.... IMO, I don't think Australia will follow the path of the OS Countries purely because we have the Natural resource at our back doors and people like US are passionate about keeping our species pure...doesn't mean we can't have designer morphs/hybrids as well...IMO
> People who are that irresponsible to let them go or let them escape, shopuldn't own snakes to start with!
> ...


 
You want to keep it civil yet you resorted to name calling? *Ironic huh.*

I don't know about you but common sense tells me that if a purist keeper resents with disgust a breeder that pollutes our hobby with mongrel trash, than it is most likely that purist keeper wouldn't associate with the cross breeder. Yet you expect the purist to be on 1st name basis with the scum breeder lol. *Ironic huh.*


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## disasterpiece7.0 (May 7, 2008)

whiterabbit said:


> Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species.
> As a side question, what kind of sub-species are out there that are under debate? does this generally refer to the genus Morelia?
> 
> Cheers
> WR



As far as I understand it, we're only speaking in terms of sub species, mainly in the morelia genus. Animals of the same sub species but different locales can be crossed without objections. Tully jungles and palmerstones for example.


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## Southside Morelia (May 7, 2008)

Well do the right thing and tell the masses that you know that the snake that that poor unsuspecting purchaser is buying is a X or Hybrid... How do you know? There are that many variations in pattern, colour in most specie, as well as the hard work our top breeders are doing to breed the best looking morph or whatever of that type of snake. Unless, it's completely obvious!
Please, again, *** are you saying, back up your statements with fact!


amazonian said:


> It is quite obvious that breeders are selling x bred snakes as pures. You can see it quite clearly just by searching through some of the posts here. There has been a multitude of "check out my new _*add species here* _" threads where the (usually a new keeper) thinks they just scored a great purebred species when infact it was quickly pointed out by numerous members that it was a mongrel/mutt.


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## natrix (May 7, 2008)

Isn't ticking the last box.......'would keep but not breed' ....kinda supporting the activity of breeding them anyway ?


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## amazonian (May 7, 2008)

When a diamond shows saddles or a coastal shows rossettes you know it is a cross breed.
Don't take the majority here as fools, we do know the difference between a coastal & a diamond. It has been pointed out NUMEROUS TIMES by the MASSES. Do a search, I am not your bat boy to do your work for you, if you are interested in knowing or seeing the facts then use the search function. 

Why is it you want the name of a cross breeder anyway? 
Are you in the market? :lol:


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## ihaveherps (May 7, 2008)

Southside, i wish you were able to hold a civil debate at all. Stop typing before you hurt yourself.


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## smacdonald (May 7, 2008)

whiterabbit said:


> Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species.



In an ideal world, when someone formally describes a subspecies they should provide enough information to let someone else identify that subspecies. So if you bought an animal as _Antaresia stimsoni_ and you want to know if you've got the _A. s. orientalis_ subspecies or the _A. s. stimsoni_ subspecies, you should be able to get the original description of the subspecies and compare the characteristics the author used to differentiate the new subspecies (in this case _A. s. orientalis_) from the 'original' type (_A. s. stimsoni_).

The characteristics used to differentiate subspecies will generally be morphological (e.g., one subspecies has <220 ventral scales and the other has > 220 ventral scales). My understanding is that it's not enough to just say subspecies A occurs in the west and subspecies B occurs in the east. It may be the case that the two subspecies are found in different areas (in fact, I think it would be unusual to find two subspecies living in the same area), but there need to be additional points of difference before the subspecies will be widely recognised.

For those of you playing at home, I believe the publication in which the two _A. stimsoni_ subspecies were first described is:

Smith L A 1985. A revision of the Liasis childreni species-group (Serpentes: Boidae). Records of the Western Australian Museum 12 (3): 257-276

I don't have a copy of this article, so I can't tell you what the differentiating characteristics are.

Does that answer your question in a long-winded fashion?


Stewart


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## whiterabbit (May 7, 2008)

thanks reptilesDownUnder, that does shed a bit more light on the topic for me. I guess this type of debate is going to be very dynamic and keep changing with research, as if some sub-species are not fully recognized in a wild population than the captive population is probably never going to be as strict on the individual recognition of sub-species (in particular cases) and in turn the breeding of these species. 

I just had a lecture today on breeding captive wildlife (not reptiles specifically, but interesting), and as the main aim of breeding wildlife is typically seen as a conservation technique, i suppose an argument for this topic could be that the further away from the wild phenotype and genotype we get the less reliable the "back up" captive population is. However what are peoples opinions on this, do you view that breeding snakes as a recreational activity can be viewed the same as those bred for conservation? 

Cheers
WR


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## cris (May 7, 2008)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> As far as I understand it, we're only speaking in terms of sub species, mainly in the morelia genus. Animals of the same sub species but different locales can be crossed without objections. Tully jungles and palmerstones for example.



Hopefully many ppl would see both as potentially the same, if you are mixing localaties you are breeding hybrids.


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## slacker (May 7, 2008)

I'd suggest there would be very few people on here who have bred reptiles that _haven't_ produced hybrids by your definition then, cris.

How many people actually asked what locality their animals are? How many people were given an answer? How many people were given an _honest_ answer? Unless your animals are WC by yourself, you have no certain way to know the locality of the animal. Anyone can _say_ an animal is from locality X, but that doesn't mean it is.


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## Australis (May 7, 2008)

ad said:


> We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,



Thats pretty much it for me in a nut-shell also, natural variation is something to treasure - not wash away.

I think half the *seppos*, hell actually im sure most of them would turf their jaguar carpets in a heart beat for the chance to keep some real carpets like those we have in this fine country of ours, i actually feel sorry for the poor mongrels.

And for those who think America is, in some way ahead of us in any positive regard you really should jump on
a plane sometime and see what its really like, its nothing special really, the hobby is bigger because hell 
North America has a far larger population than we Australians for a start, we have a TINY population here
quality not quantity is the way i look at it.


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## cris (May 7, 2008)

-aspidites- said:


> I'd suggest there would be very few people on here who have bred reptiles that _haven't_ produced hybrids by your definition then, cris.
> 
> How many people actually asked what locality their animals are? How many people were given an answer? How many people were given an _honest_ answer? Unless your animals are WC by yourself, you have no certain way to know the locality of the animal. Anyone can _say_ an animal is from locality X, but that doesn't mean it is.



Exactly, also if you consider hybrids to only be crossed subspecies(or higher) some reptiles would be a hybrid one day and not the next, taxonomy is constantly changing.


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## slacker (May 7, 2008)

I agree with you on that part at least, cris 

What can be done about that though? Unless we all have a crystal ball, most of us wouldn't have a clue as to future classification.

Breeding locality specific animals would probably limit that, but it couldn't be certain to eradicate it.

Personally, I don't trust being told that my animals are any specific locality anyway. I might be fairly confident of some of them, but never 100% certain, so that doesn't really give me the luxury of breeding such animals even if I were of a mind to.

I don't see the EPA giving me a collection permit either, so that's unlikely to ever change for me


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## Beano05 (May 7, 2008)

I would love to see some of these types of discussions held around a bbq face to face. Somethings would be worded very different.
To defend the poor already crossbred snake (I do not support crossbreeding), if it was a healthy and good tempered snake I would not mind having it. I would expect from whom ever I get it from to be honest and give me the full information on it (chances I guess would be low). I dont think the ones that already out there be destroyed. (not that anyone is stating that)

I am glad of this forum as it has given me more information about these wonderful pets. When someone does buy a snake (or any animal for that matter) they should have already decided on a breed and gather as much info possible on it for keeping it in perfect health. one of the main reasons people choose their species is their pattern with all their research they also should be able to spot most hybridization

all in my opinion


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## Gabi_79 (May 7, 2008)

I think more to the point of things, for the sake of our hobby, both for and against need to accept that hybridising is going on and will always happen.
Theres no point bashing each other about it, or getting into silly arguements about it. For the sake of our hobby those who are hybridings need to feel they can be honest about cross breeding so that those who want to stay pure can and those who want to cross breed can.
Obviously this relies on alot of honesty from everyone and lets face it there plenty of dishonest folks out there, but if we stop hammering everyone who does be honest about their cross breeding efforts more may follow, which helps all of us.

For the record i'm am strongly against cross breeding never have and never will but after years of preaching the 'pure' arguement i think it would be far more constructive to face the fact hybrids are part of our hobby so lets get used it and agree to disagree.

As for locale crossing and sub-species crossing being the same, it's true to a point, crossing a palmerstion jungle with a tully jungle will still result in jungle hatchlings. Cross a darwin carpet with a diamond......what is it??? 
Locale crossing still gives you the same sub-species. Obviously on a genetic level all the Spilota sub-species are very similar but to us in the hobby they are very different animals and i don't think anyone would agrue that. No one will tell you that south west carpets are the same as junlges etc.
From a keepers point of view sub-species crosses are hybrids.


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## $NaKe PiMp (May 7, 2008)

mixing localities?you cant prove a locale unless you removed that animal from the wild yourself
gee people crap on about localities its funny


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## Australis (May 7, 2008)

*-aspidites- *

Even some of the most common species that are rarely sold with strictly (as in not "Brisbane" "cape york")
defined localities, some species that come to mind, spotted pythons, Coastal Carpets etc..
You can still track down precise locality pure stock for both species if you go out of your way to track them down.

Tracking down old school "herpers" (not to be confused with "reptile keepers") who collected there own stock
before the licensing came in is a good way to go, in a lot of cases these herpers collected their stock local
to where they lived, so locality is certain, and F1 animals still a possibility even for east coast species.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 8, 2008)

Australis and Ramsayi: If the wildlife of your country was so spectacular as you keep mentioning, why do people and yourselves then feel the need to linebreed the different subspecies?? If they are so amazing then why would you breed brother to sister and father to sister? Is this not in itself also wrong?? I see that as being just as bad as cross breeding. But i guess its a hypocritical syste. Sorry fo going off topic. Maybe we should have a sticky thread asking people that too because these two topics are very similar morally. I would like to see how you justify that. Cause if you are a hybrid hater then you are an inbreeding lover. And dont tell me some of the prettier snakes out there was not created by breeding brother to sister. Just one thought, in the states they have been crossing cornsnakes with things like kingsnakes for many years and yet you can still find pure cornsnakes and pure kingsnakes.
Just my 2 cents.


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## smacdonald (May 8, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> in the states they have been crossing cornsnakes with things like kingsnakes for many years and yet you can still find pure cornsnakes and pure kingsnakes.



I think this is the crux of the situation. The only argument I've seen against hybridising is that people are concerned that it will mean that non-hybrid animals will no longer be available. Given the large and vocal anti-hybrid crowd, I think there will always be people breeding non-hybrids.

It's interesting to note that this thread has elicited many passionate and emotive responses, yet no one has answered my very simple questions.


Stewart


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## Australis (May 8, 2008)

Cordylus,

Firstly, as far as im aware there are very few restictions on collecting your own Corns, Kings and Boas in North America, and fieldherpers frequently take home new specimens, so there is a endless flow of new "pure" animals into captivity...

Im not sure what the moral problem with inbreeding is though, i dont have a problem with it... either would the 
species confined with a micro distribution, they seem to get on fine...?

Could you explain how its comparable to hybrids, or is it just something you see on the same moral level, its just that one certainly does happen frequently, and other not...(diamond x jungle for example)


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## Jeremy Kriske (May 8, 2008)

Hey strayalis,
What is a “seppo?” What is it short for? 



australis said:


> I think half the *seppos*, hell actually im sure most of them would turf their jaguar carpets in a heart beat for the chance to keep some real carpets like those we have in this fine country of ours, i actually feel sorry for the poor mongrels.


Do you not think the opposite is true? Would there not be many Aussies getting rid of their stock to acquire jags and other exotics? I’m missing your point here. Yes, there are people (myself included) who want some Australian reptiles, umm….so what? What does that mean? You are better? You are ahead of us? Sorry mate, that’s laughable. There are reptiles from all around the world that are in high demand, in fact, much higher demand, i.e. balls, retics, you name it. You guys are nothing special, sorry. The only thing that makes Australia different is the fact that we can’t get anything from you…anymore. People want what they can’t have, and that is where your false impression that all Americans are dying for Aussie reptiles comes from. Australian reptiles are a small part of US herpetoculture. They are *my* passion, personally, but not the masses. Sorry guys, you don’t have what we *all* want. You have what some of us want, and the same is true for you (Australia). I don’t know why it’s continually brought up here, by adults anyway. 

I’m always amazed at how many times US herpetoculture is brought up on this site, especially by you. It’s quite flattering really. I know you talk about us in a negative tone, but the simple fact you are thinking about us makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. However, after I’m done feeling warm and fuzzy, I realize how pathetic it is. Why are you comparing yourselves to us? Why is US herpetoculture even a thought in your head? Is it jealousy? Spite? Competition? A juvenile need to feel superior to others? I truly don’t get it, but my money is on the last guess. 



australis said:


> And for those who think America is, in some way ahead of us in any positive regard you really should jump on
> a plane sometime and see what its really like, its nothing special really,


Are you saying America is nothing special, or the reptiles in America are nothing special? Either way, why would you say that? We have some amazing reptiles. Venomous lizards, rattlesnakes, snapping turtles, and the only place in the world where alligators and crocs coexist. We also have access to just about every reptile in the world. Why do you feel the need to put this down? And I’d really like an answer to this question Australis. Why do you put us down? Is it simply the fact that some US herpers produce hybrids? That is not consistent. You guys have access to locality carpets etc, yet you still hybridize them. We have a very limited gene pool to work with as far as Australian animals go, so hybridization is inevitable with them. I don’t condone it, but it’s inevitable. However, you guys have access to true locality and even WC animals, yet still hybridize them! Truly a legacy to be proud of. 

Keep on truckin’ buddy!


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## Shadowmist (May 8, 2008)

If I were given a hybrid, I would keep it as a non-breeding snake. Other than that I would treat it no differently from any other snake.

If snakes are cross-bred or hybridized, unethical breeders might try to pass them off with out revealing it. Given that the captive gene pool is not going to significantly increase, it allows the possibility of degrading what pure stock there is.

The problem that I see is that with some of the subspecies, it may be hard to identify what may be a ‘pure’ snake from a cross breed..

As for inbreeding, I think that responsible breeders should try to obtain animals from different lines, so that inbreeding (and all the problems that this may cause) are minimized. Selective breeding for a trait will always go one, and where inbreeding has been used for this purpose, it should be noted. I would like to be able to obtain breeding records of snakes at point of purchase. Nothing that can identify the owners of the snakes, but some sort of unique number for the parents of the snake (ideally back 2 generations where possible).


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## smacdonald (May 8, 2008)

Jeremy Kriske said:


> What is a “seppo?”



Hi Jeremy,

It's rhyming slang - 'septic tank', short for Yank.

No offence intended! 


Stewart


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## ad (May 8, 2008)

Jeremy Kriske said:


> We have a very limited gene pool to work with as far as Australian animals go, so hybridization is inevitable with them. I don’t condone it, but it’s inevitable. However, you guys have access to true locality and even WC animals, yet still hybridize them! Truly a legacy to be proud of. [/SIZE][/FONT]
> 
> Keep on truckin’ buddy!



This is the exact point we are making Jeremy, We don't need to follow your hybrid ways - it is inevitable over there only. It doesn't have to happen here. If you don't condone it as you say - why are you here endorsing it?


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## Australis (May 8, 2008)

jeremy kriske said:


> Yes, there are people (myself included) who want some Australian reptiles, umm….so what? What does that mean? You are better? You are ahead of us? Sorry mate, that’s laughable



Your happy to bang on about being ahead of "us" and how "laughable" it is.. so why are you moaning about
my comments about the American hobby..??



jeremy kriske said:


> I’m always amazed at how many times US herpetoculture is brought up on this site, especially by you. It’s quite flattering really. I know you talk about us in a negative tone, but the simple fact you are thinking about us makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. However, after I’m done feeling warm and fuzzy, I realize how pathetic it is. Why are you comparing yourselves to us? Why is US herpetoculture even a thought in your head? Is it jealousy? Spite? Competition? A juvenile need to feel superior to others? I truly don’t get it, but my money is on the last guess.



Im hardly going out of my way to bring it up, its brought up here often enough, but when i read mindless seppo worship im happy to put my 2 cents in, hey what can i say im proud to be Australian and get tired of all seppo love fests, if you dont like that jeremy, well thats just too bad mate, im sure you will get over it.




jeremy kriske said:


> Are you saying America is nothing special, or the reptiles in America are nothing special? Either way, why would you say that?



If you read the rest of what i had written in that post surely you wouldnt need to ask what context it was in, and that was the hobby.
But now that you mention it i actually enjoyed the small amount of herping i did a long the way in North America, so i have nothing against the native reptile species, give me a break! (although i would of liked to of seem some timbers, but there is always next time).




jeremy kriske said:


> however, you guys have access to true locality and even WC animals, yet still hybridize them! Truly a legacy to be proud of.



And how does that differ from the situation in your country, dont you also have access to WC locality animals and also have people who hybridize them?


Jeremy if your so easily upset, just put me on ignore "buddy"... 



Matt


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## ad (May 8, 2008)

To the people who want them as pets.


Such a noble statement - "I would never breed them" - takes more ethics than a purist imo.


How many pets have you owned for 20 years or more?
Are you prepared to give these snakes room, food and board for 20+ years?
How many of these non-breeding animals could you house? 

Housing 2 hybrids as pets v's owning a pair of pure animals and breeding them is an immense gap.
Selling them after a few years because you are bored with them or want a different animal - the new buyer might not have the ethics you have. The pair of pure animals, even if not bred and kept as pets would still be a better alternative, why support hybrid breeding in the first place when we have such an array of beautiful native wildlife available?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 8, 2008)

> Are you prepared to give these snakes room, food and board for 20+ years?
> How many of these non-breeding animals could you house?


Not an issue in this house ad.
I, personally, do have room for this one non breeder in my small collection of animals..
One of the main reason it didnt become a meal for a copperhead was that my daughter seems to have taken a liking to it.
No doubt, she will move out in a few years and may even take her "pet" with her.


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## ad (May 8, 2008)

sssnakeman, I agree - you have taken this animal on, with the conditions you have set for yourself is great. I am moreso talking about people shopping for animals. also, your daughter would still take her 'pet' with her if it was a pure animal. 
I would say your case is a rarity in this scenario, and most newbies would not realize the commitment it is to keep a snake for its lifetime, a lot of circumstances can change for the ave human over 5 years - let alone 20.


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## Fossilman (May 8, 2008)

Am i missing the point here ad or are you saying that because a particular snake is a hybrid and non-breeding that whoever owns it is more likely to get bored of it and sell it?

Do you think that everyone who owns a snake wants to breed then? Im confussed by your post sorry. Are you saying that its a bigger commitment to keep a hybrid for 20yrs versus a pure bred? Not having a go at you or anything either.


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## ad (May 8, 2008)

People get as bored with pure animals as they do hybrids - when they sell the pures - no problem.
When they sell hybrids, the new owner might call them what they closest resemble and on sell the animal or breed it as pure. The original ethics of 'I would never breed it" are now out the door.



Most people who are saying I would never breed it - are implying they want to or are breeding pythons - a big attraction to the hobby and one that also returns money that can help fund your hobby.
How many breeding tanks would you be prepared to house non-breeding animals in? if you intend to breed animals. if not and you just want a pet - A pure snake makes just as good a pet as a hybrid surprisingly enough.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 8, 2008)

What i dont get is that the definition of a hybrid: The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races. I cant seem to find any mention of it being on a subspecies level? Is this because locality animals are judged according to their appearance and colour? Wich is of absolutely no importance when it comes to proper taxonomy. Pardon my ignorance, I'm just trying to make sense of what the real issue is. So some private keepers came up with names for different localities, where these locality animals scientifically scrutinised to justify their naming? Also, how many times does nomenclature get revised as our understanding of it increases. Hybrids between species also produce unviable offspring? If these snakes were so different why do their offspring hybrids breed then? Sorry so many questions. I find this very confusing. How many times have animals been reclassified in the past only to be changed back to what was thought of their genetic link previously. I can see the point in not breeding different species to each other, but sub species whats the big deal!


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## Australis (May 8, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> . I find this very confusing. How many times have animals been reclassified in the past only to be changed back to what was thought of their genetic link previously. I can see the point in not breeding different species to each other, but sub species whats the big deal!



What is only a sub-species now could be lifted to full species status at a later point also..?

The definition of hybrid might not of included sub-species, but i think it would be far to consider
them as "different varieties ... or races. ", thats the way i see it atleast, although im no expert on
taxonomy.


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## cris (May 8, 2008)

Basically a hybrid is anything that comes from parents with differant genes, virtually every reptile(to some extent) except clones... an intraspecific hybrid is a cross of sub species and an interspecific hybrid is between differant species, not sure what crossing with a differant genus is called though.

Saying a reptile comes from a locality means it simply came from a ceratin area, nothing to do with taxonomy. Reptiles from differant areas will generally have greater genetic variation than those in the same area, therefore crossing them will make unatural hybrids.


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## ravensgait (May 8, 2008)

Jeez Ad, I can't think of any carpet other than an Albion that I'd toss all my Jags for but then again I wont have to as some how the Albino's are out from down under. And I can't think of any Aussie reptile that I'd give up my Boeleni,Nauta's,Mol's,Papuan's,Emeralds both Northern and Basin, Amazon's, Grenada Banks tree boas, MAD's,BCI's, Dun's, Chondro's Ball's,Annulated's and there are many others that I now have or have had in my collection . So no I wouldn't give up anything to have one of your snakes heck I can get Jags, Zebra's Granites ETC ETC and yeah you can say you don't like them but I and most others seem to think they are rather nice. I have Carpets that came from Zoo's with locality collection data so getting Locality Coastals, Diamonds ETC isn't impossible for us. So please don't feel sorry for us we have the rest of the worlds animals to choose from. 

And Jeremy was right Carpets are not the most popular snake here or in Europe, the Ball is king with the Boa running a close second and I think the corns and kings blow them all out of the water,. Carpets are a ways down the list and BHP and Woma's ETC are even farther down so don't delude yourself. From a price point Carpets are pretty inexpensive you can find them for as little as 75 bucks with Morphs running up to the thousands. BHP and Woma's used to cost a bit but as they become more common their prices are falling, you can get a Woma baby for a few hundred these days. I wont go into what some of the Balls have gone for or what a nice Basin Emerald would cost you or a really nice Chondro morph.

You also seem to forget than when most the carpets came into this country and Europe they were all considered one subspecies yeah people forget that some person just decided one day to separate them. So is it any wonder that after they were separated that we had a bunch of what where now crosses? Yeah only Crosses they are the same species even now. Sure we still cross them, hey there have been some pretty wild looking critters produced and from the popularity of some of these crosses I'd say that although you may not like them others do.. Funny how you seem to think what you like is more important than what others like..

Me I am for breeding and keeping what you want to have, it is no ones business what I decide to breed and here I am free to breed what I want to. Hey you don't like the looks of crosses and hybrids no big deal I can think of a number of animals that I don't really care for but then I don't visit the lizard forums or the Hot's forums ETC ETC and tell them I think their animals are ugly nor do I tell them they shouldn't breed them just because I don't like them. Funny how many people seem to feel the need to tell others what they should and shouldn't do with their animals. I guess that's just one difference between us .. Randy


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## ravensgait (May 8, 2008)

Chris, Hybrid "" is the result of interbreeding between two animals or plants of different taxa . Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as *interspecific* hybrids or Crosses.""

Breeding two different Carpets together is a Cross.. Randy


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## ad (May 8, 2008)

Sorry Randy, I don't know which comment of mine you are referring to,
I said if we could legally export - yanks would buy our pure specimans before they would buy hybrids that some clown here 'developed'
I stand by that comment.
As already stated - you have your sand pit - we have ours - that is how you prefer ours - we prefer ours pure, you cant even justify why, you just keep spewing the same rubbish. At least we have valid reasons that a lot of herpers see value in, and hopefully the Australian hobby can be something we can be proud of.
Convince me to cross breed my snakes - give me some valid reasons too, we don't have any of the 'excuses' for cross breeding you have put forward in your same old arguement - except the 'freedom of choice' rubbish.
How many aussies are here backing you up Randy - how is the poll looking?


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## FNQ_Snake (May 8, 2008)

Nope, you don't see people trying to fit Ford parts on a Holden.

Why change a beautiful animal?


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## smacdonald (May 8, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> What i dont get is that the definition of a hybrid: The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races. I cant seem to find any mention of it being on a subspecies level? Is this because locality animals are judged according to their appearance and colour? Wich is of absolutely no importance when it comes to proper taxonomy. Pardon my ignorance, I'm just trying to make sense of what the real issue is. So some private keepers came up with names for different localities, where these locality animals scientifically scrutinised to justify their naming? Also, how many times does nomenclature get revised as our understanding of it increases. Hybrids between species also produce unviable offspring? If these snakes were so different why do their offspring hybrids breed then? Sorry so many questions. I find this very confusing. How many times have animals been reclassified in the past only to be changed back to what was thought of their genetic link previously. I can see the point in not breeding different species to each other, but sub species whats the big deal!



Hi Cordylus,

I'll do my best to answer some of your questions. It's taken me a while to type this, so others may have responded in the meantime.

Part of what makes talking about subspecies hard is that there's no official definition for a subspecies. Subspecies differ from each other, but not enough to warrant being split into a separate species. The meanings of the terms 'subspecies' and 'race' are very similar.

A problem in understanding taxonomy comes from it being unnatural. A species is really an endpoint of evolution, but evolution hasn't stopped (so how do you find its end?), and different taxa may be at different 'points' of evolution.

Species and subspecies are very abstract and subjective taxa. You can use genetics to determine other levels of classification (like family, class, order, etc), but the lowest levels of classification are basically subject to opinion.



> So some private keepers came up with names for different localities, where these locality animals scientifically scrutinised to justify their naming?



If an animal comes from a particular location, there's no need for science to verify that. An Alice Springs woma comes from Alice Springs.



> how many times does nomenclature get revised as our understanding of it increases



You've hit the nail on the head there. 30 years ago, all carpet snakes from north or east Australia were _Morelia spilota variegata_ (I think that's correct). They've since been split into a number of subspecies. Prior to them being officially split, breeding a carpet from Brisbane with one from Darwin wouldn't have been classed as hybridising, as they both were the same subspecies. This may well happen again in the future with other species. Many people are aware of this, which is why they only breed animals from the same locality. The chances of two animals of the same species from the same location later being split into two separate subspecies is very low.

I know there are other members of this forum that have a better understanding than I of taxonomy and genetics, so if I've made any mistakes above, please correct me.

This thread has degenerated into name calling, so I'm going to end my involvement with it. It's a shame it's come to this, as I think this is a very interesting topic.


Stewart


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## lizard_lover (May 8, 2008)

orr yeaa


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## Beano05 (May 8, 2008)

FNQ_Snake said:


> Nope, you don't see people trying to fit Ford parts on a Holden.


sorry I know this off topic but custom cars sometimes have parts from different cars I know a nice Hilux with a lexus v8 engine

sorry

no from me about xbreeding


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## ravensgait (May 8, 2008)

Oops sorry that part was in response to Alstralis

See that's the thing Ad, I don't want to make you do anything. I feel you should be able to breed what you like but you don't seem to offer others that same respect now do you. I make no excuses and have not offered any for breeding what I want to breed. If I breed crosses or Hybrids it is because I want too, simple as that and well because I can.

I do like the something to be proud of comment LOL yeah you can be real proud of trying to shove your version of how it is down others throats. What is that Valid reason ? I haven't seen one yet , well other than it isn't legal in many places over there. I am not trying to convince anyone to breed anything . As I keep saying I'm not like you I don't feel I have the right to tell other what they can and can't breed.

Yep same old comebacks to the same old BS of people who feel they have the right to tell others what to do. Hey if you don't like it then stop trying to dicktate. I really wonder why people like yourself feel they have any right to try and tell others what they can and can't do? 

You know you could start a poll asking who does illegal drugs and I bet you'd get a few brave honest souls who'd take the risk and admit it but I bet most even if they had would vote 'no never tried em" LOL I'm not really all that surprised by the results but then there are respondents who feel that breeding different localities together are hybrids, not trying to single anyone out but there does seem to be a prevailing lack of knowledge of the subject by many here.. 

Though I am surprised no one has tossed out the impact making crosses and hybrids has on those wanting so called pure animals(whole nother argument there) or that those who make crosses and hybrids are responsible for someone else misrepresenting them ETC ETC there I thought you and Aus could use some help so tossed ya a bone..

Hey am I the only one to notice how much nicer it is to refer to someone by name instead of a silly user name? Not to mention that by ending your post with your name sort of gives you ownership of your words you know not ashamed of what you wrote ETC..Randy


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## ad (May 8, 2008)

So, the whole 'freedom of speech' thing has you bothered?
"don't think I have the right to tell others what they can and can't do".
Glad you think I wield so much power over the herp community. I dont hold a big stick over every herper telling them what to breed - what 'right' have you got to suggest that?
I am giving forward advice, opinions and reasons - so are you - but yours about the fact that I shouldnt? - rather than anything about cross breeding animals rights or wrongs?
Youv'e lost track of any debating about cross breeding pros and cons, Im not interested in debating your "rights to free speech" guff,


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## Armand (May 8, 2008)

i like some of the nice colour morphs.. some look awsome and some dont i guess its a personal decision..


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## FNQ_Snake (May 8, 2008)

Beano05 said:


> sorry I know this off topic but custom cars sometimes have parts from different cars I know a nice Hilux with a lexus v8 engine
> 
> sorry
> 
> no from me about xbreeding



I was just trying to create a black & white definition. I have never heard of Ford parts on Holdens and I don't think people do it. That was just reinforcing. Oh, well...

I tried...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 8, 2008)

Thats a good way of seeing it Randy, Why not attach your name to your insults. I will be first to go.
Nicole


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## junglepython2 (May 8, 2008)

Armand said:


> i like some of the nice colour morphs.. some look awsome and some dont i guess its a personal decision..


 
A morph and a hybrid are two totally different things, its like trying to compare native snakes with domestic dogs.....

Most people don't have a problem with morphs, though some do prefer wild type animals but thats not really relevant to this thread.


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## cris (May 8, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> A morph and a hybrid are two totally different things, its like trying to compare native snakes with domestic dogs.....
> 
> Most people don't have a problem with morphs, though some do prefer wild type animals but thats not really relevant to this thread.



Dogs are a good example really(in this case), most domestic breeds are simply "morphs" created through line breeding and selection for weird/good looking/profitable traits or mutations, this is widely considered acceptable and even desired by many snake breeders. Compare a domestic dog to the wild type and its hardly the same thing IMO... yet when someone does the same thing rapidly through X breeding its the end of the world. This is where i get lost in the whole mob mentality on this issue, most see hybrids as being bad yet mutations and weird looking traits are seen as some sort of status symbol and often used by ____ to compare the status of herpetology in one country vs another :?

IMO there is trying to be close to wildtype or trying to be fake...


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## ravensgait (May 9, 2008)

Quote""IMO there is trying to be close to wildtype or trying to be fake...""

Cris, why do you keep the reptiles you have? Is it because you like the way they look? I like snakes but the ones I keep are the ones I like the looks of.. Here The Ball python Morphs have been all the rage the last number of years. They are where the money has been, big money in some cases as much a 100 thousand dollars if you can believe some of those guys. I kept a few way back when and still have one now and then that I take in on a trade but don't keep them around long as I don't really care for their looks. They come in some killer colors and patterns but their build and duck looking heads just don't do anything for me.. I know of a number of people who keep and breed a number of Balls to finance what they truly love, not something I want to do.

I have some of the rarer animals like Boeleni, some would say they are a status symbol but I have them because they are without doubt about as good looking a snake as I've ever seen and are unusual in temperament as well. I also have a few crosses that I have for the same reason I like the way they look and have bred a few crosses as well such as my Super Nova Jags hey you'd have to have no heart beat to think they were not at the very least interesting looking critters.

I also have a number of what we call types as well as some locality animals and again because I like how they look. I like Coastals but can't say I like the looks of all that I have seen, not much for jungles but have seen a few I like and have a few of them. I noticed a few people in this thread say they only like the wild type looking animals, hey all well and good you like what you like. 

Your analogy about dogs well I can't agree that they are morphs as many breeds that have been around awhile were bred for a reason I guess tools fits . The herding breeds, hunting dogs ETC were well, designed and built to do a specific job. People haven't built Morph snakes they have taken what nature made and I guess in some ways designed colors and patterns in them using what was already there. But if you really look at it like that anyone breeding for color and or pattern in any snakes is doing that same thing IE taking something natural and breeding it towards what that person prefers. Same could be said of those breeding Crosses and Hybrids they are trying to make something they like. Anyone breeding snakes is doing the same thing hoping to create something they like. 

Some like to throw out the money thing as the reason people breed Crosses and hybrids, Hey in the food industry there is big money in Hybrids and crosses we eat the results everyday. But in snakes there isn't much money to be made with anything much less hybrids and crosses. Sure some few people have made a lot of money of Balls but most just make a little . I am also sure that like in breeding any animal some do it just to see if it can be done and what comes from the breeding.
Yet people accuse those breeding Crosses and Hybrids of doing it all for the money yet these same folks sell the animals they breed so go figure. It all comes down to what you want to have and I feel you should be able to have what you want.. I just don't like seeing people and their animals attacked and insulted because someone else disagrees with what that person likes and has. Randy


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## ravensgait (May 9, 2008)

ad said:


> So, the whole 'freedom of speech' thing has you bothered?
> "don't think I have the right to tell others what they can and can't do".
> Glad you think I wield so much power over the herp community. I dont hold a big stick over every herper telling them what to breed - what 'right' have you got to suggest that?
> I am giving forward advice, opinions and reasons - so are you - but yours about the fact that I shouldnt? - rather than anything about cross breeding animals rights or wrongs?
> Youv'e lost track of any debating about cross breeding pros and cons, Im not interested in debating your "rights to free speech" guff,


 
No Add you are what many would call a Zealot, reason has little to do with your argument. You don't give out advice you try to intimidate others to your point of view and there is no reason in your argument you come across as it has to be Ad's way or the highway. (still having trouble owning your opinions I see) What discussion could there be with you. Your opinion is set in stone, a thousand years ago you'd have been yelling the earth is Flat!! and insulting and attacking anyone who disagreed. Facts and discussion are not something you're interested in you just seem to feel the need to rant about this subject. You don't like hybrids fine , Myself and others do so what is there to discuss? hey I tossed you a couple of bones a few post back but you didn't take them and run with it..

We also have the attacks and insults by you and your sidekick Australis on America and Europe. Hey I can understand the two of you being a little jealous as we can have and keep what we want but instead of insulting us why not work to change your laws so you too can have and keep what ever your heart desires and your wallet can handle.
It's strange, I know of a number of Aussies and folks from other countries that hang out now and then on our forums and I can't remember once seeing anyone attack or insult where they come from, kind of interesting that. Randy


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## stevel (May 9, 2008)

yes i will cross the jags to anything that breaths !


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## ravensgait (May 9, 2008)

LMAO Steve hope you don't have cats and dogs they might be a bit offended.. Randy


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## cement (May 9, 2008)

I guess the poll shows that most people that got to vote here are "naturalists". 
Definition of someone who likes things the way they evolved naturally. Generally these people appreciate the true beauty of nature and are put off by people who like to play god and toy with themselves while striving to have the BIGGEST this and the BRIGHTEST that. 
I won't be crossing sub species, because I don't actually feel I have the right to fiddle with naturally occuring species.
We've been down this road before, haven't we Randy. You take everything as a personal attack on your country.


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## ad (May 9, 2008)

I couldn't agree more Cement,
Randy is banging on about what??? the fact he thinks Im a zealot - a great debating point for the favour of cross breeding,
Even though the poll indicates I am in the majority, he still feels the need to defend.... what? His own right to freedom of choice? lol More than half the "i want to cross breed' votes would come from internationals too!!
Lucky we dont need liberating, hey.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 9, 2008)

Well said Randy!!! Its funny how us Australians hate the foreigners isnt it??? And the poll in favour not crossing is based on what. What happens to other forum members when they say they like Hybrids??? Being Bombarded with the abuse by senior members?? It boils down to what I like. Thats all.
Still cant see these Big Guns adding their names to their posts. Well I guess we dont all have the balls to claim our words.
Nicole


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## jellybelly (May 9, 2008)

ok i have read a good amount of these posts but still cant work this hybrid thing out

how is it any different to breed a tully jungle to a palmerston jungle, or a qld bhp to a nt bhp, compared with breedin a qld carpet python with a south west carpet python. Sub species are just geographic location so i dont get the difference here. 

i dont get it, maybe its cause i dont have snakes, but still doesnt make sense.


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## smacdonald (May 9, 2008)

jellybelly said:


> how is it any different to breed a tully jungle to a palmerston jungle, or a qld bhp to a nt bhp, compared with breedin a qld carpet python with a south west carpet python.



There's almost no difference. There's a small, arbitrary difference when it comes to paperwork. But from an ecological point of view they are two closely spaced points on a continuum.


Stewart


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## jellybelly (May 9, 2008)

well thats what i thought, apart from the human asserted nomenclature if this and the licensing crap (ie anything that humans have imposed) i couldnt actually see any difference, therefore by that way, unless you are breeding across species, ie carpet with a woma, then you are not hybridising. otherwise we have to go to the other extreme and say unless you are breeding with locality specific animals soley you are hybridising

Thanks i think i get it now


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## Australis (May 9, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> We also have the attacks and insults by you and your sidekick Australis on America and Europe. Hey I can understand the two of you being a little jealous as we can have and keep what we want but instead of insulting us why not work to change your laws so you too can have and keep what ever your heart desires and your wallet can handle.
> It's strange, I know of a number of Aussies and folks from other countries that hang out now and then on our forums and I can't remember once seeing anyone attack or insult where they come from, kind of interesting that. Randy




randy,

First off, im no ones side-kick and no ones mine, there are many people who share the same view as
Ad and myself (i see cement also appreciates his countries native fauna), doesnt mean hes in cahoots.
Your posting how hard done by, you and your country is, being put down, then your happy to turn around
and call someone a "zealot", geeeez your a top bloke randy, although i wouldnt expect anything less.

Im not sure why you keep bringing up your access to non-australian animals, its has NOTHING to do with
this thread at all, if your not keeping in Australia, your comments on this thread hold no weight either, not 
even sure why your posting.

I can only speak for myself (even though i know many share the same interest as me) when i say im not the
slightest bit jealous of Americans or Europeans access to non Australian reptiles... but you dont seem to
comprehend this, i *can* keep a lot of non indigenous bird and fish species, but im really only interested
in keeping indigenous species....... are you following yet?

Why dont you go herping (google it) or something, insteading of belittling Australians.

Matt


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## peterjohnson64 (May 9, 2008)

From what I understand, in Australia we have the following types of Carpet Pythons: Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles, Murray Darlings, Darwins, Bredli and Imbricata. All of these animals can interbreed and produce fertiel offspring. Even the people in the states are saying that their animals are whatever percentage diamond and whatever percentage coastal etc. This all requires someone to knwo what the parents are to make that claim. 

Do you like having all these different types of Carpet Pythons? I do. And I want to keep it that way.

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

As opposed to the States, we dont have a limited gene pool of each individual sub species in Australia. If we want to continue to keep having these different sub species then the ONLY way to do that is to stop hybridising.

So sure, if you want to develop snakes that you can merely advertise as a snake then go for it. If, however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.

Now my other concern from this thread - all the posts seem to agree that crossing is wrong. Yet 48 people have already stated that they would do it. Yes, thats 48 people already indicating they would breed mongrels. That in itself is scary IMHO.


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## jellybelly (May 9, 2008)

peterjohnson64 said:


> If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.


 
This is a totally non-sensical arguement. otherwise we wouldnt have staffies, chihuahua, great dane etc. people have been keeping dogs for longer than pretty much anything else and have been inbreeding and hybridisiing these dogs for ever.

And yet there are still a plethora of breeds of animals. 

There will always be purists, and there will be the (and cause i am an old fart i am going to blame it on the youngens) generation x people, who always want something bigger and better than there mate, somethin different. These people wont be herpers as such, more so they will be a person with a pet,and it just happens that the pet is a snake, so therefore linage and breed etc, wont make a slap of difference. THey just wan what they think is cool.


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## ravensgait (May 9, 2008)

Concrete,, Quote"" I won't be crossing sub species, because I don't actually feel I have the right to fiddle with naturally occuring species.""
Ah so you must not own or breed any animals then, why hang around a reptile site then? Yeah I know you're just being a hypocrite. As owning and breeding reptiles goes against what you say in the quote above. I know I know in your world it's do as I say not as I do LMAO.

Your comment reminded me of something a friend of mine said once. Humans are a part of nature so what ever we do must be a work of nature.. So there by humans breeding Crosses,Hybrids or what have you, it must there for follow that we are , well you get the picture lol..

Ad, what is there to debate with you??well unless you want to try and convince me the world is flat or than humans were trans planted to Earth from some where else. You have laws in most your country that say you can't create hybrids or crosses as I pointed out before but I guess that flew over your head, most folks don't want to publicly admit to breaking the law or thinking about breaking the law.

And boys one thing I don't do is take things personally, heck what are the odds that we'd ever meet ? yeah slim to none so why would I get upset by what a couple of Internet jockey's say. Hey if nothing else you a little typing practice


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## ravensgait (May 9, 2008)

Quote""however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.""
If that is what you want then you best get after your lawmakers to ban the private ownership of these animals.. Randy


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## peterjohnson64 (May 9, 2008)

jellybelly said:


> This is a totally non-sensical arguement. otherwise we wouldnt have staffies, chihuahua, great dane etc. people have been keeping dogs for longer than pretty much anything else and have been inbreeding and hybridisiing these dogs for ever.
> 
> And yet there are still a plethora of breeds of animals.
> 
> There will always be purists, and there will be the (and cause i am an old fart i am going to blame it on the youngens) generation x people, who always want something bigger and better than there mate, somethin different. These people wont be herpers as such, more so they will be a person with a pet,and it just happens that the pet is a snake, so therefore linage and breed etc, wont make a slap of difference. THey just wan what they think is cool.



Jellybelly, do you realise that all dogs are merely canis lupus familiaris? All of them are the same species. No subspecies or different types of scientific names. Really, they are just canis lupus but because they now look so much different to a wolf they added the familiaris to indicate that they are actually a domesticated wolf. What you call Staffies, chihauhas etc are merely human interpretations of different morphs of the wolf. Even a dingo is Canis lupus. 

Our carpet pythons are actually different species (spilota, Imbricata or Bredli) or sub-species (all the spilota complex).

So what you call "hybradising" a dog is actually no different to puting an albino carpet over a hypermelanistic one to try to make one that looks different. True hybradising would be putting a grey fox over a red fox.

But then, what does this have to do with it anyway. As I said, I want to keep native australian animals. Personally, I wouldnt put an NT frilly over a Qld Frilly, or an NT BHP over a Qld BHP either. So even if the spilota complex were merged into one species then I still wouldn't want to see a Sydney Carpet crossed with a Tully Carpet. Thats just me.

But if you merely want to make designer snakes that are morphed and crossed to make more desirable pets then that is your perogative. I agree, we have done this to Canis lupus over thousands of years.

And as for writing to the law makers. I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is there. In fact, I have today finished a submission that Mac Herps will be making to the NSW Licensing Review that recommends that we make hybradising reptiles illegal in NSW.


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## jellybelly (May 9, 2008)

Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am making no reference here to man made nomenclature. What i am saying is that things just wont be blended to the point where people dont know what what is. I dont own snakes, and breeding doesnteven interest me. 

My point is merely the fact that we dont just have one dog barely distinguishable from another, we have many different types of dog. Similarly, just because some people are, what some call hybridising, isnt going to mean we are going to have a single snake called Morellia SNAKE. 

But you have brought up that very interesting and pertinent issue. Some people say that (as you have alluded to) putting a NT X over a QLD X is hybridising, while others say that being a sub - species to one another is not hybridising. 

Just doesnt make any sense really as there doesnt appear to be a clear cut definition if you will of what really constitutes hybridising. 

As far as the laws are concerned, this isnt going to change a thing, your not supposed to breed alibinism but people do. 

May be there is no simple answer for it.

Maybe the idea of a national breeders register, similar to pedigree dogs, which have to be certified (or better still DNA tested as in the UK), having this certification will mean people will know exactly what they are buying. 

Laws dont seem to work real well, maybe education and having systems in place to make it more worth while to buy pure is the best way. 

Probably a very tricky and hard question really.

Oh and by the way, one of the major reasons that all dogs are the same species is because they are a domestic animal, but still this has no bearing on what i was saying.


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## junglepython2 (May 9, 2008)

Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have. 

The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" arguement doesn't hold much water.


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## C'baoth (May 9, 2008)

ssnakeman that just looks like a standard coastal to me .

Personally I think that the rewards of line breeding in this hobby is the ultimate goal . Cross breeding Morelia is cheating & not at all something that has any value to me . I love morphs , but only ones that are the product of years of dedication to line breeding a particular subspecies . A cross bred mutant has absolutely no value to me , although it may be a awesome looking snake , at the end of the day it's just a cheap imitation of what could have been a lifetimes work .


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 9, 2008)

> ssnakeman that just looks like a standard coastal to me


What it looks like and what it* is* is two different things ...
M.d and coastal in that one.


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## C'baoth (May 9, 2008)

That's the beauty of Coastals though . No 2 are the same . They are a great starting platform for a breeding project because there is so much variation within the same clutch .


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## C'baoth (May 9, 2008)

Honestly , I just don't get it . Everyone is into their own thing & that's cool , but I love what is already available & what is going to be available from the produce i've seen from selected breeding . It just scares me to think of all the deception that is undoubtedly going to happen as a result of all this as people try to sell their reptiles to a market that isn't in my opinion ready to embrace Xbreds .


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## ravensgait (May 10, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have.
> 
> The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" argument doesn't hold much water.


 

Where have I refuted the results of the poll? or tied to tell anyone or even suggest what they should or shouldn't breed? 
As for being jealous I don't know if you are or not, was just commenting on how some liked to take shots at American and European herpers. Hey if you don't want us around start a poll to have us excluded and maybe the admin will do that for you.
Heck I could care less if you like crosses or hybrids or not but I don't think anyone has the right to tell others what they can and can't breed.

Now as far as that poll goes I would imagine from his comments that Ad, voted against hybrids and crosses. Though I have to wonder why he has had such a change of heart? He used to seem to feel they were pretty wonderful, well if you can go by his past comments made on this site. 

So JP he seems that people can change their minds about things who knows 10 years from now I might be against them, though I really doubt I'll be trying to tell other that they should breed them... Randy


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## urodacus_au (May 10, 2008)

jellybelly said:


> Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am making no reference here to man made nomenclature. What i am saying is that things just wont be blended to the point where people dont know what what is. I dont own snakes, and breeding doesnteven interest me.
> 
> My point is merely the fact that we dont just have one dog barely distinguishable from another, we have many different types of dog. Similarly, just because some people are, what some call hybridising, isnt going to mean we are going to have a single snake called Morellia SNAKE.
> 
> ...




Very well written, pity the content is mud. You said it in your first paragraph, you dont own snakes....


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## Australis (May 10, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> Where have I refuted the results of the poll? .. Randy







ravensgait said:


> You know you could start a poll asking who does illegal drugs and I bet you'd get a few brave honest souls who'd take the risk and admit it but I bet most even if they had would vote 'no never tried em" LOL I'm not really all that surprised by the results but then there are respondents who feel that breeding different localities together are hybrids, not trying to single anyone out but there does seem to be a prevailing lack of knowledge of the subject by many here.............Randy



Randy,

Speaking of a lack of knowledge regarding localities, so you dont consider a locality cross a hybrid, rendering anyone who disagrees to be suffering from a lack of knowledge? 

Ill stick with advice from Australian field herpers with decades of experience, over someone who i really doubt has a single shred of field experience with Australian _M. spilota_, unless my assumption of your experience is mistaken, your not qualified to comment.


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## ravensgait (May 10, 2008)

Well Astralis it isn't a hybrid and breeding localities of the same sub species wouldn't even be a cross. The comment was due to so many not seeming to understand what a Cross or Hybrid is and your post above makes my point as you don't seem to know either.. As for the other comment of mine you quoted I think it is easy to understand just what I wrote, I didn't notice anything I said that refutes the poll in this thread.. What going out in the bush has to do with understanding what a species , sub species, hybrid or a cross is I don't know. It doesn't look like going out in the bush seems to have helped you understand what a Hybrid or Cross is that's for sure .

Oh and Again notice how I own my comments and make it easier for people to reply to me by using my name.. Randy


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## sparticus (May 10, 2008)

if i bought a cracker of a snake to findout it was a hydrid, i would go off my nut.Keep it pure, there are good animals coming out of each species and sub species already.This is why they are called hold backs..Because people hold them back so they can use these to create better coloured and better animals .Work on creating good lines from these, dont take the easy way out and hybridise.As far as i am concerned if you need to hybridise then you havent the patients or know how to be breeding reptiles.


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## cockney red (May 10, 2008)

Totally agree.


junglepython2 said:


> Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have.
> 
> The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" arguement doesn't hold much water.


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## Australis (May 10, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> Well Astralis it isn't a hybrid and breeding localities of the same sub species wouldn't even be a cross. The comment was due to so many not seeming to understand what a Cross or Hybrid is and your post above makes my point as you don't seem to know either.. As for the other comment of mine you quoted I think it is easy to understand just what I wrote, I didn't notice anything I said that refutes the poll in this thread.. What going out in the bush has to do with understanding what a species , sub species, hybrid or a cross is I don't know. It doesn't look like going out in the bush seems to have helped you understand what a Hybrid or Cross is that's for sure .



This thread is in the context of the hobby, and in this hobby as far as im concerned for example a *Morelia spilota mcdowelli* from NSW, bred to one from Far North Queensland is a hybrid in the hobby sense.

Guess you wouldnt see many true animals over your way would ya.



ravensgait said:


> Oh and Again notice how I own my comments and make it easier for people to reply to me by using my name.. Randy



I sign my name when i feel like it, usually when replying to those i know, not on request.
You cant even manage to spell *Australis* correctly as it is, wouldnt want to push you any further.


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## jellybelly (May 10, 2008)

urodacus_au said:


> Very well written, pity the content is mud. You said it in your first paragraph, you dont own snakes....


 

I am writing to say sorry to the herp community of this website, i was not aware that in order to post, have an opinion, or be able to form a rational thought process about ecological matters etc, one must actually own SNAKES. 

So to all those out there that dont own snakes, just remember your thoughts on anything dont account for scrap. 

Well at least now i have been set straight, so the more animals (sorry, SNAKES) you own therefore te more valid, and educated your opinion becomes. How silly of me. 

WHat a relief though, now i know that guy that just got done for corns etc in Melbourne last week was right for doing what he did cause he had stacks of snakes. So his opinion and ideas are the right ones. 


Or i could just say if you cant formulate any constructive contribution to the case at hand pull your head in and stop flexing your incapacity for intelligent conversation or social reasoning.


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## junglepython2 (May 10, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> As for being jealous I don't know if you are or not, was just commenting on how some liked to take shots at American and European herpers. Hey if you don't want us around start a poll to have us excluded and maybe the admin will do that for you.
> Heck I could care less if you like crosses or hybrids or not but I don't think anyone has the right to tell others what they can and can't breed.


 
I don't think I've ever taken shots at American or European herpers, as long as Australia maintains its import/export laws what you do over there has no affect on our stocks, and you can hybridise all you want. And I assure you I'm not jealous of what you have as I'm very much in favour of banning exotics. That's not to say you don't have access to some great reptiles.

Hybridising over here however, does impact on our ability to acquire pure specimens, mainly due to the unscrupulous nature of many mongrel breeders out to make a quick buck. And as long as the majority want to keep it pure, I think they should be able to tells others what they can't breed. Why should the minority destroy it for the majority?

And unlike overseas, our pure stocks are still for the time being reasonably healthy. I just hope it stays that way. Remember all your original founder stock would have been pure, and it is the hybridisers that have now made it very difficult to acquire anything at the subspecies level. Forgive me, but I don't want to be in your shoes in 10-20 years time.


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## ravensgait (May 10, 2008)

JP can you show me where I ever said you were Jealous and had taken shots at Americans ? I have no idea why you felt the need to throw that out.

""unscrupulous nature of many mongrel breeders "" and you know they are this how? or is this Just Your Opinion .. that's a rhetorical question by the way.

Wont get into the pure bit .

Ah 20 years from now gee I wonder , 20 years ago they were all just Carpet Pythons go figure, in 20 year they may be once again Just Carpet Pythons, I mean it's not like you can tell the Sub species apart even by DNA testing. Don't toss out the 'Well they look different' bit because dogs will likely come up again.

Nothing to forgive as we'll still have tons of critters around and you'll still have your Aussie critters but then who knows what might happen in 20 years.. Randy


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## slacker (May 10, 2008)

When it comes down to it, it has been done before, will be done again in the future and no doubt is being done right now.

The more people become aggressively resistant to the idea, the more likely people are to pass things off as pure when they're not. If they weren't going to be persecuted, the primary reason for misrepresenting hybrids would be, I believe, ignorance.

Personally, I'd much rather people cease attacking those who're breeding hybrids. There's nothing you can do about it and by doing so, I believe you're just increasing the likelihood of people misrepresenting animals out of fear.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, which would you prefer, people breeding hybrids and passing them off as 'pure' or people breeding hybrids and passing them off as just that, hybrids?

If people had no reason to hide it, they would likely advertise them as what they are and I think the chances of our 'pure' animals becoming 'tainted' would actually decrease.


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## cockney red (May 10, 2008)

Very sensible opinion i think. Would become a case of better the devil you know.


-aspidites- said:


> When it comes down to it, it has been done before, will be done again in the future and no doubt is being done right now.
> 
> The more people become aggressively resistant to the idea, the more likely people are to pass things off as pure when they're not. If they weren't going to be persecuted, the primary reason for misrepresenting hybrids would be, I believe, ignorance.
> 
> ...


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## ravensgait (May 10, 2008)

Australis said:


> This thread is in the context of the hobby, and in this hobby as far as im concerned for example a *Morelia spilota mcdowelli* from NSW, bred to one from Far North Queensland is a hybrid in the hobby sense.
> 
> Guess you wouldnt see many true animals over your way would ya.
> 
> ...


 
LMAO well I don't know what to say to your first comment IE Context that funny.
Well heck I guess I must not have gotten my copy of Australis's version of Herp terms LMAO good one that who's the publisher so I can see about getting a copy. Sorry I really don't care how you try to cover your fopaw but that isn't even going to get off the gound much less fly. It isn't hard to look up what the terms mean you know..

True Animals humm, ah what kind of animals are you talking about? Unless you are referring to yourself I haven't a clue what your talking about there.. 

As for not using your name, well I can kind of understand that, I wouldn't want to sign my name to that either.. Randy


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## ravensgait (May 10, 2008)

Quote""Very sensible opinion i think. Would become a case of better the devil you know."

I agree a sensible post.. Randy


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## Retic (May 10, 2008)

Yes I agree, a very good post Aspidites.


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## aspidito (May 10, 2008)

Those people that know me, including Steve I (Morelia Pythons UK) hi Steve, know I have some beautiful pure Aussie animals that I am very proud of, my SA womas are the purest locale, I should know I caught the original animals of my line & have never introduced any other animal into this line.
Now I am really happy that we have so many native pythons available to us, locale specific & more beautiful morphs each year & I know from US & UK forums that guys overseas would love to get their hands on some of our animals & believe me I & many others if they were honest would give their right arm for some of the stunning designer snakes that you guys own & breed.
The only time I see Australia getting in strife is if an animal becomes extinct in the wild or disappears from certain areas, then we would loose the pure gene pool & have to rely on captive specimens, but what worries people here & me included is that people can & have cross bred & then sold on as pure & so the mixed line begins & goes on.
This debate should not create a divide between 2 different passions with a common love for the same thing, each should be able to appreciate the other with equal regard. Some of my friends own hi tech turbo 4 cylinders & others would have nothing else but big V8’s, I love & appreciate both & it is the same with our hobby, I only own & breed the best looking & purest locale (to the best of my knowledge) animals that I could get hold of but if you ask me would I like to own a pair of stunning looking designer peach coloured Jag morphs that are available in the US or Europe, absolutely yes without a doubt, who could ever dispute what the offspring are, nothing else but gorgeous individuals & as long as that is what they are sold as is fine.
Like it or not we will follow the trends of the US & Europe in the way of designer snakes, what we need to consider is how we are going to cope or manage with this evolution, one way that comes to my mind is a register of certain breeders that are strictly licensed to keep & breed only certain species therefore maintaining the purity of that particular animal ie; Aspidites ramsayi Uluru locale only & maybe another Morelia spilota s for instance, breeders could apply, be checked & be certified, an idea only but we should think about it as it will happen its only a matter of time.
Cheers to all, Paul.


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## Australis (May 10, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> LMAO well I don't know what to say to your first comment IE Context that funny.



What context do you think this thread is in then, this is a hobby site isnt it?



ravensgait said:


> Well heck I guess I must not have gotten my copy of Australis's version of Herp terms LMAO good one that who's the publisher so I can see about getting a copy. Sorry I really don't care how you try to cover your fopaw but that isn't even going to get off the gound much less fly. It isn't hard to look up what the terms mean you know..



I know how the term is defined, here is one from a Australian Dictionary..
"hybrid: (offspring) having parents of different races, breeds, varieties, etc. "

For me, the *mcdowelli* that *ive* seen from the southern limits of their range (NSW) are significantly different to the *mcdowelli* *ive* seen further north into QLD.. enough for me to consider their offspring hybrids to some degree in my eyes, and im not the only one.
You really have no experience at all in this area, so i wouldnt expect you to understand it..
Laugh all you like, but at the end of the day, not too many people are going to listen to someone with out a shred of field experience, bang on about localities, just stick with those carpet pythons (term used loosely) in boxes in your basement half way across the world.



ravensgait said:


> True Animals humm, ah what kind of animals are you talking about?  Unless you are referring to yourself I haven't a clue what your talking about there..



Wow, your very witty, no really, top stuff.



ravensgait said:


> As for not using your name, well I can kind of understand that, I wouldn't want to sign my name to that either.. Randy



Ah, its all good ravingit, ill make this my last response to you... time to get out of the gutter for me, you beat me with experience at this level.


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## junglepython2 (May 10, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> JP can you show me where I ever said you were Jealous and had taken shots at Americans ? I have no idea why you felt the need to throw that out.


 
It was in reference to this comment, I never said you directly questioned me, but just making sure I wasn't one of the "some".


ravensgait said:


> As for being jealous I don't know if you are or not, was just commenting on how some liked to take shots at American and European herpers.


 



ravensgait said:


> I mean it's not like you can tell the Sub species apart even by DNA testing.


 
I would love to see the reference to the work you are referring to? (I am being serious if you do have it available). Even if they haven't found any genetic markers yet, it doesnt mean they do not exist. I can't believe that a diamond python is genetically indistinct from say a bredli.


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## Retic (May 10, 2008)

Bredli are a distinct species, Randy was referring to Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds etc.


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## junglepython2 (May 10, 2008)

That depends what classification system you use Boa, many use M. spilota bredli and not M. bredli. Meaning they are not a distinct species. You can substitute the bredli for a darwin or jungle in my original comment if you like, I still do not believe they are genetically indistinct.


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## cockney red (May 11, 2008)

Iwas under the impression that there are slight differences, as there is even between Diamonds & Intergrades.


junglepython2 said:


> That depends what classification system you use Boa, many use M. spilota bredli and not M. bredli. Meaning they are not a distinct species. You can substitute the bredli for a darwin or jungle in my original comment if you like, I still do not believe they are genetically indistinct.


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## oddball (May 11, 2008)

I personally would prefer a hybrid snake with a wonderful temperament to an angry and nasty pure blood.

My spotted is (as far as I know) a pure spotted and not mixed with a stimmie or a childrens, but it wouldn't bother me in the least if he was, because he is such a lovely little guy. But then again I don't care that he isn't a beautiful morph either. I wouldn't trade him for the fanciest bred snake in the world.

Of course I can appreciate unusually bred snakes, I think some morphs are the most stunning snakes I've ever seen, but I'm not interested in making any money off snakes, I keep them for the love of an amazing animal, and as a companion. So it doesn't matter so much to me.

So I voted "i'd keep him as a pet, but wouldn't breed him" 

As for the debate, I have no problems personally with hybrids, and I already said I would keep one if it turned out to have a sweet personality. I do have a problem with deliberatley breeding a hybridised python, and then selling it as a pure bred one, because apart from being dishonest, it gives a bad name to the hybrid snakes, a stigma if you will and that would also carry on to the more unusual pure bred morphs as less and less people believe that they can be selectively bred as opposed to hybrid- bred.
That and I've read a few comments telling one owner of a hybrid telling him to 'put it in the freezer'. And although I hope it was a joke, I'm still not sure. And killing an animal for its breeding is just plain wrong to me.

I agree with the people who have said that there isn't much that could be done to stop it hybridising, but that a higher level of tolerance for hybrids will mean more people selling the snakes will be truthful about it. So if you don't like the idea of hybrids, rather than flame and berate people for breeding them, just don't buy them.


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## ravensgait (May 11, 2008)

JP, I'll see if I can pull some info up and send it to you. But most the DNA work has just been mentioned in papers and post on Carpets and the like.. It is my understanding that not a lot has been done. There has been some talk of doing some work here in the states but the problem is that in most cases they can't be sure where the animals they are taking samples from originated , just one cross could make a mess of it..

There are the Morelia Spilota -- Spilota Spilota, Cheynei, Harrisoni, Mcdowelli ETC ETC then there is Morelai Bredli which seemed to be different enough to split off from Spilota .. I think we sometimes forget that these animals all have a common ancestor . 

CR , I'm sure there is some difference but it doesn't seem to be that much. What is the differences you see between say a Coastal and a Jungle- Color, Markings and some size, not all that big a difference. When just looking at them and what little DNA work done doesn't find all that much difference. Sort of a scary thought what if next year some researcher decided to break them up even more and added say 10 more subspecies or 20 ! Many would say BS and still call them what they are today others would have a bunch more Spilota to play with.. We still call Green tree pythons Chondro's which was their name until someone decided to toss them into the Morelia yet we still call them Chondro's lol It's just people that break all this up not the snakes themselves..

And just to be clean I do not want to see them all lumped back into one subspecies.. Randy


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## Ramsayi (May 11, 2008)

Lumpers and Splitters have always been around and will never see eye to eye.This paper regarding the dna testing of all Morelia that supposedly lumps them all in to 3 or 4 distinct groups has been spoken about for years yet as far as I am aware this so called paper hasn't surfaced.Yet it is always mentioned by hybrid breeders to justify why they do what they do.


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## wiz-fiz (May 11, 2008)

If I had a good looking bredli and a good looking M.D. I would probably cross them to be honest. it'd be interesting to see what they look like.


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## beeman (May 11, 2008)

willia6 said:


> If I had a good looking bredli and a good looking M.D. I would probably cross them to be honest. it'd be interesting to see what they look like.


 
They are arroud already and in mho they are crap!


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## wiz-fiz (May 11, 2008)

really?
can you post some pics up?


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## ihaveherps (May 11, 2008)

Ravensgait, to my understanding, this nex taxonomy system actually lumps Greens and Roughies both into Chondropython, and seperates Bredli and Imbricata from the spilota's. Although I am yet to hear that this new system is widely accepted, as even within their own ilk, taxonomists rarely agree, part of why the taxonomy is one of the most contemptuous of the sciences.

Dna testing on pythons at this stage is rather useless, except in regards to proving paternity. Work up to this point in regards to the carpets has only come to the conclusion that there are minor genetic differences between the spilotas, possibly not enough to warrant so many sub-species, yet unless the genome is completely mapped, the relevence of these minute differences are not really applicable to any taxonomic breakthrough. The DNA testing you are refering to is no more than pure data, without any application as of yet. 

So to my understanding Ranensgait, so far the bulk of your arguement in this thread revolves around DNA testing and taxonomy. The DNA testing, a proven science, although its application in this sense is yet to be in any way complete as the data they have collected thus far has no application, and on the other hand Taxonomy, which even by your own posts is not a concrete science so cannot see how this even helps your arguement. Furthermore when some have tried to pass their own opinions on the subject of locale breeding, an idea you cannot seem to fathom, as in itself it is alot more common-sence way to keep rather than continually chasing the whims of the taxonomists.

I fail to see how the bulk of what you have contributed to this thread has any validity at all, it all sound good at a glance, but has no basis in finite science at all.

Regards
Herpies


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## stevel (May 12, 2008)

Heres one of my Aussie pythons !















its a yearling jungle jaguar (coastal x jungle )

what ever you lot say about this animal it is from your country ,a few generations removed and crossed yes 

Rediculous this prure debate is ,i mean why would you not want a good looking snake if you could make one?

would you say no to this snake then?


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## Retic (May 12, 2008)

That's a beautiful snake in it's own right Steve.


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## FNQ_Snake (May 12, 2008)

stevel said:


> would you say no to this snake then?



I would. I only like purebreds. This is a beautiful snake, but IMO I will always love and own pure breds.

I relate it to dogs, you don't see anyone asking for a Rottweiler X Collie now.

There are only a few hybridisers out there, good luck to them. I just hope that the pure breds don't get weaned out over the coming decades.


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## cement (May 12, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> Concrete,, Quote"" I won't be crossing sub species, because I don't actually feel I have the right to fiddle with naturally occuring species.""
> Ah so you must not own or breed any animals then, why hang around a reptile site then? Yeah I know you're just being a hypocrite. As owning and breeding reptiles goes against what you say in the quote above. I know I know in your world it's do as I say not as I do LMAO.
> 
> You are a true genius Randy. No one but you has caught me out.  I am constantly amazed by your infinite wisdom and clarity. I really must say you win the debate.Especially with this comment
> ...


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## stevel (May 12, 2008)

boa said:


> That's a beautiful snake in it's own right Steve.



Thank you mate


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## stevel (May 12, 2008)

FNQ_Snake said:


> I would. I only like purebreds. This is a beautiful snake, but IMO I will always love and own pure breds.
> 
> I relate it to dogs, you don't see anyone asking for a Rottweiler X Collie now.
> 
> There are only a few hybridisers out there, good luck to them. I just hope that the pure breds don't get weaned out over the coming decades.



Fair comments but breeders are producing labradors crossed to bloody poodles, labradoodles and there becoming very popular (not for me) ,hidious IMO but i say they have there rights to do that ,lets face it most things in captivity are messed with/man made ,even your so called pure pythons  its just for us to get the best from that species !?! 

So you see why people cross snakes ? if you deny the beauty of this Jaguar cross then i think your probably a little uptight about the whole issue and need to relax somewhat <not aimed at any one in particular


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## ravensgait (May 13, 2008)

Cement, point being that unless they went out and pulled the animals to be used in the study from the bush you can't be sure that all are what they are supposed to be.. Not even Aussie keepers could be 100 percent sure that every animal they have is what it is purported to be.. I know that is a bit obvious which is likely why you overlooked it..

Quote""to my understanding, this nex taxonomy system actually lumps Greens and Roughies both into Chondropython,""
Herps Chondro Python Viridis was done away with years ago and they were added to Morelia becoming Morelia Viridis, I think Roughies have always been Morelia Carinata.. My argument has been that I feel people should be able to breed what they want to breed and that's pretty much it.. 
Quote""Taxonomy, which even by your own posts is not a concrete science so cannot see how this even helps your arguement. """
Not sure I understand your meaning but that does reinforce some of what I've said IE it could all change tomorrow and you could be a hybrid breeder. Locality tell me which locality is isolated from any other to prevent Locality mixing? Heck for the most part the sub species are not isolated from each other to prevent cross breeding. 

JP haven't forgotten been a bit busy the last few days with these critters .. Randy


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## cement (May 13, 2008)

"There has been some talk of doing some work here in the states but the problem is that in most cases they can't be sure where the animals they are taking samples from originated , just one cross could make a mess of it.."[/quote]

Yeah I always miss the obvious Randy, thats why this quote is so good. So your gonna pull them from the bush mate:shock: yeah, sure.I have said to you before, that I don't care that you like to play mix and match (after all it is your god given American right) remember? Just stop writing dribble to try and justify what you do. Oh actually no, keep writing dribble because If you stopped it would be because I told you to and thats going against your liberating persona.
Backs to the wall every one, here come the Great American Liberators. Now if you feel that I am doing the wrong thing by having an interest in keeping species pure, you should acknowledge that instead of trying to continually try to climb on your soapbox .
CEMENT


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## aspidito (May 14, 2008)

stevel said:


> Heres one of my Aussie pythons !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Steve, how are you mate Ive told you before I would never say no to one of your snakes, now how are your eggs going, you should have some stunners hatching soon
Cheers, Paul.


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## Ryan93 (May 14, 2008)

I love the pure breeds as they are more beautifull in its natual colours.


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## stevel (May 14, 2008)

aspidito said:


> Hi Steve, how are you mate Ive told you before I would never say no to one of your snakes, now how are your eggs going, you should have some stunners hatching soon
> Cheers, Paul.



A few have hatched mate pop on my site for a look 

a nice suprise there for ya 

Steve


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## mrsshep77 (May 14, 2008)

Just thought I'd point out right now that there's 137 people who say NO and 100 people who would consider keeping and/or breeding, seems to not be as cut and dry as people think hey!


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## Mystery (May 14, 2008)

stevel said:


> Heres one of my Aussie pythons
> 
> its a yearling jungle jaguar (coastal x jungle )
> 
> ...



Beautiful snake.


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## junglepython2 (May 14, 2008)

mrsshep77 said:


> Just thought I'd point out right now that there's 137 people who say NO and 100 people who would consider keeping and/or breeding, seems to not be as cut and dry as people think hey!


 
Well seeing that currently over 75% are against breeding them it seems cut and dry to me.


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## mrsshep77 (May 14, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> Well seeing that currently over 75% are against breeding them it seems cut and dry to me.


 
But according to previous remarks, you can't keep a hybrid with the intention of NOT breeding it and still be apart of the majority! It takes more ethics to do that then be honest and open about breeding hybrids!

The poll has a number of options and there is only ONE that says "No, I would never ever do it, keep things pure IMO" and it's currently at 57% now if you felt so passionate about BREEDING hybrids then to be in line with your thoughts and opinions about the topic, wouldnt "owning" a hybrid be just as bad?

I'm just trying to see if the whole topic at hand has been lost? Are we debating the "breeding" of hybrids OR the "keeping" of hybrids? It has to be one or the other, otherwise that's just hypocracy.


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## Sdaji (May 14, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> Well seeing that currently over 75% are against breeding them it seems cut and dry to me.



How is it cut and dry? There are over 20 people saying they plan to create them and over 60 people saying they're open to the idea. That means there are hundreds of people out there who feel this way, not to mention several times that who don't understand or care about the situation, not to mention the accidents which will come from people who themselves don't like hybrids. There will always be hybrids galore. The fact that more people dislike them than like them won't stop the others from creating them.

Most of the pure stuff going around isn't pure anyway, it's just snake soup with a false label. Being so anti-hybrid just means that hybrids (which are going to be everywhere whether we like it or not) will be misrepresented. The result of this is that things which actually are pure don't look so special because everything supposedly is.

The reality of hybrids being everywhere should be acknowledged. By trying to get rid of something we can't, we're just going to cause problems, we're just going to force people to be dishonest, which makes the problem worse.

(Yes, a lot of this is said in general, not directed at junglepython2)


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## mrsshep77 (May 14, 2008)

I totally agree with you Sdaji, regardless of how people personally feel about hybrids by being so ANTI towards it is just going to make the ones who are for it be dishonest and then where does that leave the Pure Gene Pool we're all talking about? VERY MUDDY!

It's great that people have their opinions and feelings about this and can voice them BUT at the end of the day you aren't going to stop someone doing something just because YOU don't believe in it - look at Prohibition in the early 1900's it just made people do it illegally.

I would rather have someone be honest with me about a snake's parentage than for them to lie to me! This doesn't mean I'm condoning the practice or I agree BUT I can realise that these things are always going to be happening wether I like it or not so why not just "accept" that you can't change people's thoughts.


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## ad (May 14, 2008)

Sdaji and Mrs Shep , you are saying we are 'forcing' dishonest people to be even more dishonest?
It is illegal in most states - so aren't hybrid breeders already people that are a bit dodgy?

Yes it will keep happening for the reasons mentioned, as a hobby we should try to minimize it and educate people to the pitfalls associated. They will catch the young, gullible and greedy, as they do today -wiser ones will seek reputable breeders with proven lines.


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## caustichumor (May 14, 2008)

That reasoning isn't going to change any purists ideology though IMO, People will always be on both sides of the fence on this issue, and I can't see anyone taking a relaxed attitude towards something (in the hope that it doesn't get any worse.) At the very least some new keepers will see the division this topic causes amongst keepers and maybe convince some that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.....


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## mrsshep77 (May 14, 2008)

That's right Ad BUT I'd like to think that as a "hobby" we'd at least be able to be honest with the ones who share that same passion with. 

Ok so lets educate people, not argue with the one's who are already open about their practice! I think the other thing to remember to is that this started over a photo posted by an Overseas member who doesn't have the same laws imposed on them as we do. Now shouldn't he be able to post his photo's the same as we post our pure snakes and we all give him the respect that his country, his laws are different and he shouldn't be condemned for what his governing body has imposed upon him?

Fair enough you may not agree or like what he is doing but for people to resort to immature insults and ridicule because he posted the photo is defeating the purpose of what the real issue is.

He is overseas, therefore his gene pool and hybridizing does not affect us in a physical sense! So what are all arguing for? Why not start educating people on the laws that govern OUR country not worry about someone else's laws.

There are 2 ways to start a war.... Politics AND Religion! And nobody can win in a war!


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## Sdaji (May 14, 2008)

ad said:


> Sdaji and Mrs Shep , you are saying we are 'forcing' dishonest people to be even more dishonest?
> It is illegal in most states - so aren't hybrid breeders already people that are a bit dodgy?
> 
> Yes it will keep happening for the reasons mentioned, as a hobby we should try to minimize it and educate people to the pitfalls associated. They will catch the young, gullible and greedy, as they do today -wiser ones will seek reputable breeders with proven lines.



If we could magically stop people from breeding hybrids it would be great. Unfortunately, that's not an option. If we make it illegal or socially unacceptable, the hybrids get labelled as pure animals and are mixed with the genuinely pure ones. Yes, we are forcing people to be dishonest. In the cases where it is illegal, yes, hybridisers are already a bit dodgy. If you care about pure animals, it's best to allow people to openly tell you that their hybrids are hybrids, rather than get them mixed up with the pure stuff (which in most cases isn't pure anyway).

In the end, it's all rather trivial as if you know what you're doing and you want something pure, you'll track it down (and not by simply looking for an ad that says the snake is pure - that doesn't work!). It's already years or in some cases decades too late to save the purity of many lines, so it's a fairly moot point, but if you care about pure animals, you have to give people the option of telling you that their animals what are not pure are not pure, otherwise everyone makes the same claim as those with the genuine article.


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## mrsshep77 (May 14, 2008)

The affect of this dishonesty and confusion is probably best seen in diamonds! How many times have we seen people question the parentage of a diamond and I'm the first to admit I've made calls on snakes that may or may not have been right... why... because that element of doubt is there isn't it?

If people could just come out and say "YES it's a hybrid" or it's possibly a hybrid far outweighs the possibilities if more hybrid breeders are forced to embelish their lineage!


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## ad (May 14, 2008)

Mrs Shep, It is the fact that people want to make more money from their hybrid by claiming it as pure - Not fear of purists.
People advertise hybrids openly atm - how do you percieve this?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 14, 2008)

Can someone explain to me how these hybrid breeders would make money please??? This gets mentioned all the time? How is a hybrid ever going to demand the same price as a so called pure line??? Especially when they get sold as such. I am so glad I am in Victoria where a carpet python is just a carpet python. At least there have been some that said they would sell them for what they are, even though they were dodgy.


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## cockney red (May 14, 2008)

As illegal.


ad said:


> Mrs Shep, It is the fact that people want to make more money from their hybrid by claiming it as pure - Not fear of purists.
> People advertise hybrids openly atm - how do you percieve this?


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## mrsshep77 (May 14, 2008)

I believe money motivates alot of people for alot of reasons! But surely we wouldn't be having this debate if a snakes blood line was 100% known 100% of the time??? It's not possible as unless you're the person who went into the bush and caught that snake with you're own hands you can't possibly guarentee it's pure. All that you have is the breeders honesty or even just the knowledge of where his animals come from!

I do believe there are a majority of breeders who are honest about the snakes they sell, however there will always be a bad egg amongst people won't there!

Ok so let me ask you this Ad (and I mean no offence or malice but it's hard to get emotion across a screen), now I'm speaking hypothetical and my views only BUT what happens to the market that WANT these "designer" snakes (and there will ALWAYS be a market for it) if breeders are openly and constently rediculed and abused over what they do in their own backyard? Lets say in 5-10yrs time? What can you see happening? It won't stop no matter how hard people push, it will only make people seek other avenues ie black market etc

Now I'm not saying we should embrace what other breeders do nor like it at all BUT my opinion is... why fight a battle that can never be won? Hybrids will never go away nor will the breeders who breed them, nor will the market who seek to purchase them! Why not focus on education??? Don't they say that Education is the most powerful tool?


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## slacker (May 14, 2008)

Have a look at some of the hybrids overseas. You might not like them, but I can guarantee that many people will. Aesthetically speaking, some--not all, but some--of those hybrids are absolutely stunning when compared to typical wild-type animals of 'pure' origins. Sure, that's subjective, but whatever.

If someone over here was producing hybrids jags with the aesthetic quality of those you see overseas, I seriously doubt they're going to get less money than they would for a plain old coastal.


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## Sdaji (May 14, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> Can someone explain to me how these hybrid breeders would make money please???
> 
> How is a hybrid ever going to demand the same price as a so called pure line???



By having a pure label.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 14, 2008)

My point exactly. Its all about the appeal. Even the Anti hybrid brigade look at jags and I cant help but think what they think. It will happen, Jags will pop up sooner or later. In whatever crossed form or even just coastal Jags. This will of course hurt the market for the purist brigade, but what can they do about it. I can not imagine anybody not wanting to own a jag. Especially with all the possibilities there are when combining different colours, patterns and traits. Scare tactics is all that can be used to bully people into seeing eye to eye with them. I agree with Sdaji and Mrsshep, it will happen if they like it or not.


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## Hsut77 (May 14, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> By having a pure label.



So people will breed Hybrids so they can sell them as pure????...........or do you mean sell the one's that don't look like Hybrids as pure. And keep breeding Hybrids in the hope something 'Good Looking' will come out?


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## Sdaji (May 14, 2008)

-aspidites- said:


> Have a look at some of the hybrids overseas. You might not like them, but I can guarantee that many people will. Aesthetically speaking, some--not all, but some--of those hybrids are absolutely stunning when compared to typical wild-type animals of 'pure' origins. Sure, that's subjective, but whatever.
> 
> If someone over here was producing hybrids jags with the aesthetic quality of those you see overseas, I seriously doubt they're going to get less money than they would for a plain old coastal.



Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?


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## cockney red (May 14, 2008)

None of em. They all look like 1950's curtains to me.



Sdaji said:


> Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?


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## caustichumor (May 14, 2008)

It's Human Nature, look at the U.S. hobby, they have access to an almost unlimited number of international reptiles, you can have a green anaconda if you want to! Yet there are still plenty of U.S breeders that cross the hell out of anything they can get their hands on. Now Australia has a relatively "small"amount of python species available to keepers, there will always be a section that wants something differant.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 14, 2008)

All the percentage jags look good. But they had to cross coastals with all the other known sub species to get the jaguar trait into the hybrid. Then its just a matter of crossing the hybrid back to each other generation after generation, so you get the hybrids to look more and more like one of the parents. They will never quite be one or the other specie, but who cares when they look that awesome. You also have the problem of the nasty looking siblings. This is where the screw up is going to happen. What will you do with the ugly siblings????


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## viper23_1997 (May 14, 2008)

I dont own any, but if i did then id consider , only if they looked awesome like the spider piebalds do http://www.designermorphs.com/images/Spider Pied.JPG , 
and if i had someone willing to pay me at least $100)


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## slacker (May 14, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?



I can't answer that, the question is completely subjective. What I like, others might not. There's no way one person can answer on behalf of the masses and get it right for everyone 



Cordylus said:


> What will you do with the ugly siblings????



Sell them for less than the attractive ones. They're probably still going to come out looking better than your 'typical' coastal :lol: Sorry. I couldn't resist.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 14, 2008)

I agree, on the coastal thing.


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## Sdaji (May 14, 2008)

Hsut77 said:


> So people will breed Hybrids so they can sell them as pure????...........or do you mean sell the one's that don't look like Hybrids as pure. And keep breeding Hybrids in the hope something 'Good Looking' will come out?



Hybrids often look like pure individuals of one taxon or another. Pure snakes often look more like a typical snake of another taxon than their own. These days people are into morphs, so no one wants a typical individual of a taxon anyway. Very often I see things being sold as pure, which are clearly not what they are supposed to be.

I've seen 75% Macs which look less mac than this thing. I could probably sell it as a pure individual of just about any locality of Children's or Stimson's, and no one would have reason to disbelieve. Incidentally, it's the third generation I've produced of the line and it's very much locality pure.











I bought this Tiger fairly recently as a locality pure animal, and was puzzled as she didn't quite look right (although she is still gorgeous!). I did some digging and found out the story behind her (yet to be absolutely confirmed, but I'm working on it). She is locality, but a completely different locality from what I was originally told. Many siblings from her litter have been given out, and now a lot of people believe that they have pure Tigers from one location, when really they're from another, and probably they'll be crossed with animals which really are from that location, producing accidental hybrids, innocently being sold as something they're not. (Yeah, putting the picture up isn't really relevant, but I love her and she is so pretty that I'll take the excuse :lol: ).






Does anyone think that when someone advertises "NT Black-headeds" etc, and the seller knows no more than "That's what I bought the parents as", that they're getting something pure? We're already far too late. If you want pure, go to someone who knows where the original animals were collected.


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## Dipcdame (May 14, 2008)

One word comes to mind - why?


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## mrsshep77 (May 14, 2008)

That's exactly what I was trying to say too, unless you go off into the sunset with herping kit in hand and pluck that snake from the wild yourself the only person you have to believe is the person who sells you the snake! Do your homework and research about localities but I'm afraid I agree with you Sdaji in the fact that it's far to late for 100% pure "locale" snakes 100% of the time!


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## Sdaji (May 14, 2008)

mrsshep77 said:


> That's exactly what I was trying to say too, unless you go off into the sunset with herping kit in hand and pluck that snake from the wild yourself the only person you have to believe is the person who sells you the snake! Do your homework and research about localities but I'm afraid I agree with you Sdaji in the fact that it's far to late for 100% pure "locale" snakes 100% of the time!



Not all the time. I know both the people who collected the original animals used to produce the Children's Python on the previous page, and where they were collected from. I've seen the original wild animals with my own eyes. That line is pure, I have no doubt. I have a few lines I know the origins of, and there are many more out there. I think lines like that are safer if we are more honest and accepting of hybrids. If we want to keep them separate we need to acknowledge the existence of both. If we try to pretend hybrids don't exist (including forcing others to do so), everything is mixed together. Of course, it really doesn't matter. The people who really care will keep things pure, the majority will grab anything with the pure label, and anyone with a clue knows that simply having a pure label is about as useless as a firearm when there are no cats or politicians nearby, while the rest are merrily breeding whatever they feel like with whatever else is handy anyway.


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## junglepython2 (May 14, 2008)

Hybrids are sold as pure, because it is much easier to move ugly hybrids if they sold as pure, plus they will get more money for them. If people are willing to breed them in the first place they don't really care what the puritsts think. Condoning hyrbrids just leads to more hybrids on the market and even more that are misrepresented. I understand we will never erradicate them, it's far to late for that, but it doesn't mean we should just give up.


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## Sdaji (May 14, 2008)

I want one of those giant hamburgers from the birthday thread.


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## aspidito (May 14, 2008)

mrsshep77 said:


> Just thought I'd point out right now that there's 137 people who say NO and 100 people who would consider keeping and/or breeding, seems to not be as cut and dry as people think hey!



Yes I think that was the whole point behind this topic, to bring out all those people that have been too scared to say they like hydrids on APS, it seems there are more than some people thought, it gives us a better snapshot of the whole herp scene, looks like we will follow the European & US trends much quicker than expected


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## ravensgait (May 15, 2008)

Someone asked ''Why"' well why not ? 

People really seem to have a hard time with the words Hybrid and Cross(Intergrades),, breeding a carpet to a carpet isn't creating a Hybrid it is a cross, if you bred say a BHP to a Coastal that would be a Hybrid IE different species and the BHP would likely eat the Coastal anyway ..

Some crosses and Hybrids are butt ugly but as many if not more are at the very least interesting looking and some are fantastic looking. Here are some EmeraldX Amazon tree boa crosses
http://www.corallus.com/caninus/hybrid3.jpg http://www.urbanjungles.com/bhybridtreeboasb.htm these are some nice looking ones , there are better out there just couldn't find the website.
Here's one bred by John Martin 




not all hybrids and crosses are ugly lol

Cement, I have to wonder could they use the animals you have in a study like I mentioned?/ did you grab all yours from the wild or are you like most everyone else IE having to take the word of the person you buy from..

How often have we seen people say they don't like coastals and that they should be fed to BHPs ? yeah most are just kidding. We like different things different animals ETC .

How many times do we see someone posting hey what is this snakes or what do you think of my Diiamond ! and it isn't a Diamond. Heck I see it most every day someone listing an animal for sale that is obviously something other than what they think it is. Most times it just ignorance, they don't know what they have . It has little to do with Hybrids or crosses and has been going on way longer than people have been purposely breeding Crosses and hybrids. Mistakes are made all the time and yeah I'm sure that a few have purposely misrepresented animals it happens , hey there are some het albino Carpets for sale , how do you know they are het? You don't you have to trust the person you're buying from.

Some crosses are not much to look at here's a Bredli Jag sib




Here's her sister




Randy


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## jamey (May 15, 2008)

ad said:


> Guess which one I picked,
> Keep them pure, It is our Australian wildlife we are entrusted to keep on license.
> If you can't respect that - then maybe you should just get a cat, dog, rabbit etc.
> We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,
> ...



Now that is hitting the nail on the head right there!If export ever becomes legal,I sure won't be looking for any X's!
Jamey


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## Chimera (May 15, 2008)

After reading Sdaji's posts (and a bit of Dawkins) I must say that I have changed my tune on the topic of crossing sub-species. I would like to say from the get-go that I will not be doing this but here is my reason why.

These sub-species have evolved in different locations according to a number of environmental cues that favoured particular attributes, the end result is the wild type looks that have, in recent years, become a bit passe. The morph market has gained traction and is developed through favourable breeding of bright colours which is contrary to the environmental drivers in the wild. Further to this, the increased reproduction rate of captive pythons compared to wild pythons and the large control keepers have over which pythons breed has accelerated this change. End result, even in the short time that we have been breeding reptiles we have created a significant divergence from wild populations negating our ability to release them into the wild. To consider the pet reptile trade as a 'backup' for preservation of wild populations is ludicrous given the afore mentioned divergence.

The drivers behind the evolution of captive bred reptiles are based on aesthetics and robustness. A percentage of new keepers will be looking for something different to display in their living room and this market will be met with subspecies hybrids. The market for species and locality pure animals will not disappear nor diminish, the hybrid market will simply be one of the growth areas in the hobby along with the morph market. If we remove current restrictions on crossing subspecies and allow this market to develop then there will be an increase in the honesty of an animals history (why bother stating an animal is pure if you can sell it as a hybrid for the same amount). This has already occurred in the Port Mac carpet market, rather then people selling them as pure Diamonds, they now have an acceptable label to put on them.

As a final point, I think some APS members are guilty of thinking that APS represents a good sample of people involved in keeping and breeding reptiles. This simply isn't true, there are vastly different opinions and values held by keepers out there. You only need to consider the fact that there are 15,000 people actively keeping reptiles in NSW and compare that to the number of members. There are occasions where our finger is not on the pulse.

As I have previously stated, I will not be crossing sub-species. I do however feel that it is likely to be a foregone conclusion that this will occur.


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## SlothHead (May 15, 2008)

Ok I have been reading the thread since inception, and really didn’t think that I would be making a post in it. But after reading this last post, I thought I “needed” to for two reasons: 

1: I have a secret crush on Dawkins and he is my GOD…( anyone that knows about this guy well should get a chuckle out of that, and if you don’t know about him, I suggest you do some reading)

And 
2: This post wins the award for best post of my APS life. It is rational, makes sense, and is grounded in truth. Well done, perfectly said. 

I have also included it here as a quote for you to all read again. 




Chimera said:


> After reading Sdaji's posts (and a bit of Dawkins) I must say that I have changed my tune on the topic of crossing sub-species. I would like to say from the get-go that I will not be doing this but here is my reason why.
> 
> These sub-species have evolved in different locations according to a number of environmental cues that favoured particular attributes, the end result is the wild type looks that have, in recent years, become a bit passe. The morph market has gained traction and is developed through favourable breeding of bright colours which is contrary to the environmental drivers in the wild. Further to this, the increased reproduction rate of captive pythons compared to wild pythons and the large control keepers have over which pythons breed has accelerated this change. End result, even in the short time that we have been breeding reptiles we have created a significant divergence from wild populations negating our ability to release them into the wild. To consider the pet reptile trade as a 'backup' for preservation of wild populations is ludicrous given the afore mentioned divergence.
> 
> ...


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## Retic (May 15, 2008)

I agree, that post by Chimera is one of the best I have read on this forum.


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## Sdaji (May 15, 2008)

Good point about APS's members not representing the opinions of the wider herpetological community. APS is a small sample of them, and more importantly, a very skewed sample. Additionally, the views actually expressed on APS come from a very skewed sample of the already skewed members, and even further complicating things, their views are usually expressed only when they are either sure that people won't hate them for expressing them, or when they want to stir trouble. 

This place is good for a laugh though


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## Pixxie (May 16, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> This place is good for a laugh though


 

I like your work Sdaji-eye.


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## aspidito (May 16, 2008)

Chimera said:


> After reading Sdaji's posts (and a bit of Dawkins) I must say that I have changed my tune on the topic of crossing sub-species. I would like to say from the get-go that I will not be doing this but here is my reason why.
> 
> As a final point, I think some APS members are guilty of thinking that APS represents a good sample of people involved in keeping and breeding reptiles. This simply isn't true, there are vastly different opinions and values held by keepers out there. You only need to consider the fact that there are 15,000 people actively keeping reptiles in NSW and compare that to the number of members. There are occasions where our finger is not on the pulse.
> 
> As I have previously stated, I will not be crossing sub-species. I do however feel that it is likely to be a foregone conclusion that this will occur.



Very well put, there are a lot of people here that dont have their finger on the pulse


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## mrsshep77 (May 16, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Not all the time. I know both the people who collected the original animals used to produce the Children's Python on the previous page, and where they were collected from. I've seen the original wild animals with my own eyes. That line is pure, I have no doubt. I have a few lines I know the origins of, and there are many more out there. I think lines like that are safer if we are more honest and accepting of hybrids. If we want to keep them separate we need to acknowledge the existence of both. If we try to pretend hybrids don't exist (including forcing others to do so), everything is mixed together. Of course, it really doesn't matter. The people who really care will keep things pure, the majority will grab anything with the pure label, and anyone with a clue knows that simply having a pure label is about as useless as a firearm when there are no cats or politicians nearby, while the rest are merrily breeding whatever they feel like with whatever else is handy anyway.


 
Sorry Sdaji that's what I was trying to say :lol:
But not everyone has the same information available to them and that's where the questions come into it.

I agree that Chimera's post has been the most rational and well-thought posts I have ever seen on APS! Good on ya mate!


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## cement (May 18, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> Cement, I have to wonder could they use the animals you have in a study like I mentioned?/ did you grab all yours from the wild or are you like most everyone else IE having to take the word of the person you buy from..
> 
> Yes I do beleive that I do own animals that are locality specific. It isn't that hard to find here in aus if you put in the work. Also knowing well respected herpers that have been breeding locale specific from wild caught specimens for donkeys years is also helpful.
> Sure I have some animals that are eg just "maculosa" or just "variegata" etc. But i don't mislead people and tell them I know where they are from if I don't.
> How about we stop jumping to conclusions Randy.


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## ravensgait (May 19, 2008)

What conclusion?? You just confirmed what I said in the quote you used. There is a good bit of difference between 'I Believe" and "I Know" and what the heck Donkey's have to do with I don't know...Randy


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## jean19 (Jun 4, 2008)

hello 
( i haven't found the place where to present myself  )
i'm french and i would'nt cross , because in europe if we start crossing in a few years , we won't be able to find any pure australian's pythons . if people want to play there is enough other species that's are already more or less made for it .


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## Maxjub (Jun 4, 2008)

Well, why not? 
Were already playing God, arent we?
Go crazy, I say...


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## boris (Jun 7, 2008)

u are a fool if u cross australian snakes. thay are better the the way nature made them


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## wood_nymph (Jun 7, 2008)

i don't see why any serious breeder would cross even just from a bussiness point of veiw. pures are worth mroe $$$, esp if it's a pure local of a species and there's a better market for them, i think we've all seen the anti cross sentiment out there


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## Maxjub (Jun 9, 2008)

God loves diversity of his creatures. And there is no reason why a cross isnt as cool as a purebread.
For an example, I have two dogs, one purebread staffy (Jub-jub) and a kelpie/staffy (Max)
Now, I love them both more than anything, but its painfully obvious that Jub-jub is dumb as a brick....no, really...I have never met a dumber dog in my life... while Max in as cunning as a fox. Also, Jub-jub owes me thousands in vet bills from skin problems, ear infections etc etc. All the nasties that comes with a pure bread, while Max on the otherhand hasnt cost me a cent in treatments since his puppy vaccinations.
So, there it is...
If it can happen, let it happen...
As long as the animals doesnt suffer, that is...


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## urodacus_au (Jun 9, 2008)

Maxjub said:


> God loves diversity of his creatures. And there is no reason why a cross isnt as cool as a purebread.
> For an example, I have two dogs, one purebread staffy (Jub-jub) and a kelpie/staffy (Max)
> Now, I love them both more than anything, but its painfully obvious that Jub-jub is dumb as a brick....no, really...I have never met a dumber dog in my life... while Max in as cunning as a fox. Also, Jub-jub owes me thousands in vet bills from skin problems, ear infections etc etc. All the nasties that comes with a pure bread, while Max on the otherhand hasnt cost me a cent in treatments since his puppy vaccinations.
> So, there it is...
> ...



Theyre the same species......


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## Maxjub (Jun 13, 2008)

Ok, but what about the crossing of the domestic cat and the asian leopard cat? That turned in to the awesome Bengal cat. It is an now established hybrid wich looks better than any old farm cat.


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## amazonian (Jun 13, 2008)

I am a major cross breeder.




















I cross breeders off my list if I find they are messing with garbage hybrids.


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## Deka69 (Jun 18, 2008)

one day we (reptile breeders) may be called on to repopulate an area othat has been made extinc with our captive breed snakes . If we ca't maintain a strong pure bloodline some snakes may become rare and endangered in the wild with no way of brining the population back. This has happend in the Bird industry where the only existing bierd remained in breeders hands, they became part of a breeding program to re-introduce these birds back into the wild....yes this program did happen and did work.


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## ryno2085 (Jul 4, 2008)

nah i wouldnt


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## Dragon1 (Jul 4, 2008)

Im of 2 minds.
Its good to keep the breeds pure, but
sometimes the cross breeds are realy pretty.
I dont know...

Dragon1


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## markp (Aug 1, 2008)

I housed a female diamond and what was supposed to be a female jungle together while moving house,and all my cages were dismantled.they were together for 4 days while moving.The result was 10 absolutely gorgeous little hybrids.I sold off 8 (as hybrids) cheaply and kept 2 for myself.Although I wouldnt set out to cross breed,when it happened I couldnt bring myself to not incubate the eggs


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## sweetangel (Aug 1, 2008)

markp said:


> I housed a female diamond and what was supposed to be a female jungle together while moving house,and all my cages were dismantled.they were together for 4 days while moving.The result was 10 absolutely gorgeous little hybrids.I sold off 8 (as hybrids) cheaply and kept 2 for myself.Although I wouldnt set out to cross breed,when it happened I couldnt bring myself to not incubate the eggs



you dont happen to have any photos do you??


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## antaresia_boy (Aug 1, 2008)

yeah, i want pics.


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## chilli (Aug 1, 2008)

Deka69 said:


> one day we (reptile breeders) may be called on to repopulate an area othat has been made extinc with our captive breed snakes . If we ca't maintain a strong pure bloodline some snakes may become rare and endangered in the wild with no way of brining the population back. This has happend in the Bird industry where the only existing bierd remained in breeders hands, they became part of a breeding program to re-introduce these birds back into the wild....yes this program did happen and did work.



great argument, but i can't get my mind around comparing carpet pythons with spix macaws. you are joking aren't you?


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## lozza_rae (Sep 7, 2008)

Stewart, 
This is exactly my opinion. Look at all the typing you saved me.

Last year I was sold 4 hatchling "coastal carpets" for $100 each. The people had to move from QLD to WA and could not take their beloved pets. I said I'd give them all a good home. Those "coastals"... have turned out to look like jungle pythons, and they ARE black and yellow, very yellow. I was a bit shocked about that. 

So what are they? Are they coastals, cos that's what they were sold to me as, or are they jungles... or are they some kind of mixture in between? How do I find out? And regardless of their lineage or genetic make-up, they're stunning snakes, the types people pay hundreds for. Their beautiful and I wouldn't hesitate in letting them reproduce. 

The more people who come up with their gut feeling on this, and stop being sheep following the flock, the more interesting this thread could turn out to be.

Lauren



reptilesDownUnder said:


> For the record, I don't give a rat's if people breed hybrids (at any taxonomical level). The animals are in captivity and, unless the health and well-being of the animal is compromised, I don't see why it matters. Sure, people can then start selling hybrid animals as pure-bred ones, but there's nothing stopping them from doing that now.
> 
> I also think that crossing subspecies is very similar to crossing a coastal carpet from north Queensland with a coastal carpet from south Queensland. You can legally do that because they're on paper as the same species, but the event would never occur in the wild. So what's the difference between crossing a diamond python with a coastal carpet? That's not a rhetorical question - I'm happy for an anti-hybrid person to enlighten me.
> 
> ...


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## lozza_rae (Sep 7, 2008)

Are you suggesting we get ourselves a bure-bred pedigree dog, or a mongrel... or if a permit allows should we take some European wolves from the wild and breed a couple, so long as we are entrusted with keeping them pure..

Where do you think all dogs came from. The problem is not them being crossed / hybridised and domesticated. The problem is keeping captive separate to wild. 

So any strongly enforced laws for permits, should be those that stop us from releasing a captive bred animal into the wild.

Domestic dogs being released has really damaged pure wild populations of the Dingo. There's a fine example. 

But so long as the captive animals aren't being released I don't think it should matter.

When you say 20 years in front for pure bred animals, do you mean pure-captive bred animals, or pure animals from the wild. I think our wild populations of snake are still pretty pure, so probably are the US's



ad said:


> Guess which one I picked,
> Keep them pure, It is our Australian wildlife we are entrusted to keep on license.
> If you can't respect that - then maybe you should just get a cat, dog, rabbit etc.
> We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,
> ...


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## lozza_rae (Sep 7, 2008)

Well put Aspidites.



-aspidites- said:


> I'd suggest there would be very few people on here who have bred reptiles that _haven't_ produced hybrids by your definition then, cris.
> 
> How many people actually asked what locality their animals are? How many people were given an answer? How many people were given an _honest_ answer? Unless your animals are WC by yourself, you have no certain way to know the locality of the animal. Anyone can _say_ an animal is from locality X, but that doesn't mean it is.


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## lozza_rae (Sep 7, 2008)

If I want to see native wildlife I go out in the wild to see it... not to somebody's home reptile collection. 

", why support hybrid breeding in the first place when we have such an array of beautiful native wildlife available?[/quote]


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## Mr.Pagz (Sep 30, 2008)

Because I don't know much about breeding reptiles, is it possible to cross species (eg. Aspidites and Morelia)?

I would rather keep it all pure, however as someone said its inevitable that down the line that it'll eventually happen... lets hope not however!


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## Jason (Sep 30, 2008)

Mr.Pagz said:


> Because I don't know much about breeding reptiles, is it possible to cross species (eg. Aspidites and Morelia)?
> 
> I would rather keep it all pure, however as someone said its inevitable that down the line that it'll eventually happen... lets hope not however!



yer its possible, here is a pic of what i think is a very interesting animal, its a woma x carpet = coma python


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## Khagan (Sep 30, 2008)

Jason said:


> yer its possible, here is a pic of what i think is a very interesting animal, its a woma x carpet = coma python



Interesting, but wierd looking at the same time :|.


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## cris (Sep 30, 2008)

Mr.Pagz said:


> Because I don't know much about breeding reptiles, is it possible to cross species (eg. Aspidites and Morelia)?
> 
> I would rather keep it all pure, however as someone said its inevitable that down the line that it'll eventually happen... lets hope not however!



The correct word is genus, a scientific name is written like this.
_Morelia spilota cheynei_
_Genus species sub-species_

As shown above they are possible.


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## notechistiger (Sep 30, 2008)

I don't know if it's been asked already in the thread, because I wasn't bothered to read 14 pages, but is there a group (obviously a minority) of people overseas that have the same attitude to hybrids has Australian's do?

*Jason*: That's a beautiful snake.

*lozza_rae:* Thank you. Very well said.


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## Jason (Sep 30, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> I don't know if it's been asked already in the thread, because I wasn't bothered to read 14 pages, but is there a group (obviously a minority) of people overseas that have the same attitude to hybrids has Australian's do?



i think its safe to assume that is the case. As afr as im aware there are groups that are very much into hybridising animals and then there are those that are apose to it. i do believe that we are the same here though i just think people are alittle bit quiter about being for hybrids cause they usually get shot down.
i think you would find that if people would stop attacking people for hybridising the confusion as to whats some animals are may clera up abit because people would begin to start selling animals as 50 % carpet 50 % jungle for instance. while some may not agree with hybrids atleast people wouldnt fear the abuse. 
i think it will become more excepted with honesty. time will tell??


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## notechistiger (Sep 30, 2008)

Jason said:


> people are alittle bit quiter about being for hybrids cause they usually get shot down.


 
That's a nice way of putting it.



Jason said:


> i think you would find that if people would stop attacking people for hybridising the confusion as to whats some animals are may clera up abit because people would begin to start selling animals as 50 % carpet 50 % jungle for instance. while some may not agree with hybrids atleast people wouldnt fear the abuse.


 
I completely agree here. People should just back off. If they don't like it, ignore it. What was that saying that your mum always used to say? "If you have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all."


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## Retic (Sep 30, 2008)

I don't really understand this "but is there a group (obviously a minority) of people overseas that have the same attitude to hybrids has Australian's do?" Why obviously a minority ? From what I gather more seem to be against it than in favour, there seems to be a general misunderstanding or ignorance of keepers and breeders overseas. An example is when an Aussie bred hybrid was shown immediately people jumped in with both feet criticising the Americans. 
What you need to remember is that a minority of breeders frequent internet forums and a minority of those that do would openly admit to liking a hybrid.


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## notechistiger (Sep 30, 2008)

boa said:


> I don't really understand this "but is there a group (obviously a minority) of people overseas that have the same attitude to hybrids has Australian's do?" Why obviously a minority ? From what I gather more seem to be against it than in favour, there seems to be a general misunderstanding or ignorance of keepers and breeders overseas. An example is when an Aussie bred hybrid was shown immediately people jumped in with both feet criticising the Americans.
> What you need to remember is that a minority of breeders frequent internet forums and a minority of those that do would openly admit to liking a hybrid.


 
I assumed the majority of overseas people like hybrids due to the general hype for them, and lack of negative responses to them. My mistake.


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## dave8208 (Sep 30, 2008)

yes i will be trying to crossbreed , it is a challenge and produces attractive snakes. and also they sell well.
so , slag me off all you like , i wont be reading the comments - pm me if you have to.
so , you albino breeders are ok then ???????????????????????????? yes you are ....... arent you.


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## Jason (Sep 30, 2008)

boa said:


> What you need to remember is that a minority of breeders frequent internet forums and a minority of those that do would openly admit to liking a hybrid.



good point, id agree i dont think its a minority, in general i think the majority are against it. you'll see a different side of people when it comes to jags though, those hybrids are stunning. a normal bredli x diamond on the other hand is imo a waste of time!




dave8208 said:


> yes i will be trying to crossbreed , it is a challenge and produces attractive snakes. and also they sell well.
> so , slag me off all you like , i wont be reading the comments - pm me if you have to.
> so , you albino breeders are ok then ???????????????????????????? yes you are ....... arent you.



good luck with it. sell them for what they are and you would have the respect of some.
dont really understand your comment about the albinos? id assume your breeding albinos to everything??


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## Colin (Sep 30, 2008)

ad said:


> Guess which one I picked,
> Keep them pure, It is our Australian wildlife we are entrusted to keep on license.
> If you can't respect that - then maybe you should just get a cat, dog, rabbit etc.
> We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,
> ...



great answer Ad  my sentiments exactly.. 



> We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want.
> If they ever allow legal exporting of our reptiles - guess which ones the yanks will want??


this is so damn true.. they would give a stack of there hybrid jag whatevers [and their left ***] for some locality pure animals in a heartbeat..


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## No-two (Sep 30, 2008)

Just reading some of ad's replys and i have to agree about the keeping a hybrid but not breeding it. I recently gave away 2 childrens i wasn't 100% sure one. They were given to a friend and a family member as they're just after a "pet" I couldn't justify keeping a hybrid when it could be a pure locality spacific animal.


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## Retic (Sep 30, 2008)

The problem with Antaresia in particular is very few people know the exact status of their animals, unless of course they are wild caught. Not that many years ago all 3 (commonly kept) species were all classified as childrens and were 'interbred' with ignorance, no we can only go by what they look the most like.


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## Mr.Pagz (Sep 30, 2008)

cris said:


> The correct word is genus, a scientific name is written like this.
> _Morelia spilota cheynei_
> _Genus species sub-species_
> 
> As shown above they are possible.


Ah, thank you for clearing that up for me.

It is an interesting point though, that we can't be for sure certain of the "pureness" of our pythons due to the fact that we have no idea what they've been breed with down the line. You might have a Carpet that's 1/16th Jungle and you wouldn't know the difference.

It would be interesting to breed the "black headedness" of a bhp into other species though, I've always liked that quality about them.


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## notechistiger (Sep 30, 2008)

Jason said:


> dont really understand your comment about the albinos? id assume your breeding albinos to everything??


 
dave was referring to the fact that albinoism is a mutation, and it's considering illegal to knowingly create mutations. In my opinion, it's a stupid law, and is probably just to prevent said mutation from having more appearences in natural populations should that particular animal escape.


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Oct 10, 2008)

If both parents were high quality and healthy, possibly.
But i probably wouldnt sell the hatchies off, id just keep them.
Maybe in the future, but for now, as someone else said, its just funny watching the American muatations.


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## Jungletrans (Oct 10, 2008)

l plan to take much bigger steps across the gene pool . l intend to be the first to cross a python with a rat . Having trouble getting them to mate .


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## gman78 (Oct 13, 2008)

I thought there were some people who need to vote tonight.
Help yourselves


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## diamondgeeza (Oct 18, 2008)

I hope to breed my diamond zebra crosses next season (the result of breeding a 50% diamond jungle cross with a zebra jungle carpet which makes them 25% diamond influence).






Male zebra diamond cross


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 18, 2008)

rainbow__serpent said:


> If both parents were high quality and healthy, possibly.
> But i probably wouldnt sell the hatchies off, id just keep them.
> Maybe in the future, but for now, as someone else said, its just funny watching the American muatations.
> View attachment 66004
> View attachment 66005



I like that first BP, but the second...ummmm...lol not so much, but i'm sure a lot of work has gone into producing it!


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## Nagraj (Oct 18, 2008)

No-two said:


> I recently gave away 2 childrens i wasn't 100% sure one. They were given to a friend and a family member .....




This is how hybrids end up back in the gene pool. The 'friend' loses interest in the snake and passes it on to somebody else forgetting to inform that it's a hybrid and then the next owner does the same and before you know it it's a pure animal producing pure offspring. Which brings me back to my point in one of the other threads, if it's not visibly hybrid and nobody knows any different how is it a problem?


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## Luke1 (Oct 18, 2008)

ssssnakeman said:


> I was given this x bred snake ( m.d and brissie and darwin who knows what else) last year because the owner could not get it to eat..
> I have no intentions to breed from it and i wont be selling it as it seems to have a great disposition and i do want to see what it looks like as it matures.
> Also , by keeping it in my own collection i am ensuring it wont be bred with anything else.
> The breeder of this particular snake is a member of this site. No so much a x breed but an assortment of coastals from different areas...Does this count?


 
i would keep them but not breed....but thats a stunner! he looks fabuolous!!!!


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## indicus (Oct 18, 2008)

What a joke...
With all the brilliant lines available to the public to work with these days....
There seems to be a large percentage of new keepers that believe instead of putting the time; effort;
and hard yards into obtaining good quality locality forms....it's so much easier to just cross whatever; to see if you may in fact 'jag' a nice animal.....disgusting; and IMO these people shouldn't be allowed to hold a licence.
Some have pointed out; why bother? as Parks for the most part; will not enforce laws; that in some states; prohibit the breeding or creation of hybrids....so what? since when have government Departments got it right? Did they not allow the importation of many things that have; in fact already stuffed; or altered our natural bio-diversity for the most part..... it's up to all of us to be responsible for our 'own' actions; seldom seen in the 'New age Aussie'. It's also interesting to note that some of those in a position to educate the general public; for the most part; have accepted that it's happening anyway; rather then pointing out to those less experienced; why it's important to try and keep captive lines pure to the best of our ability..... go through old threads if your not aware as to the many problems associated with the introduction of Hybrids into the hobby; look over-sea's and see just how good there've got it ..... oh that's right; I suppose I'm to be labelled a 'purest'...not a 'realest'


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## diamondgeeza (Oct 18, 2008)

...


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## cockney red (Oct 18, 2008)

indicus said:


> What a joke...
> With all the brilliant lines available to the public to work with these days....
> There seems to be a large percentage of new keepers that believe instead of putting the time; effort;
> and hard yards into obtaining good quality locality forms....it's so much easier to just cross whatever; to see if you may in fact 'jag' a nice animal.....disgusting; and IMO these people shouldn't be allowed to hold a licence.
> Some have pointed out; why bother? as Parks for the most part; will not enforce laws; that in some states; prohibit the breeding or creation of hybrids....so what? since when have government Departments got it right? Did they not allow the importation of many things that have; in fact already stuffed; or altered our natural bio-diversity for the most part..... it's up to all of us to be responsible for our 'own' actions; seldom seen in the 'New age Aussie'. It's also interesting to note that some of those in a position to educate the general public; for the most part; have accepted that it's happening anyway; rather then pointing out to those less experienced; why it's important to try and keep captive lines pure to the best of our ability..... go through old threads if your not aware as to the many problems associated with the introduction of Hybrids into the hobby; look over-sea's and see just how good there've got it ..... oh that's right; I suppose I'm to be labelled a 'purest'...not a 'realest'


Sticky this. Nuff said, that should sum up for the "realists". Haven't seen anything from the "pro's" to come close.


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## cement (Oct 21, 2008)

diamondgeeza said:


> I hope to breed my diamond zebra crosses next season (the result of breeding a 50% diamond jungle cross with a zebra jungle carpet which makes them 25% diamond influence).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No offence bro, I live in the heart of diamond python country, and that snake apart from a few minor differences looks like a fairly ordinary diamond. A good looking pure diamond has it all over that. So why go to all the trouble? Mind you, in the wild here probably every fourth or fifth python I have to catch is a stunner, the rest fairly average like that. Got an impressive title though. Diamond zebra jungle with a 25% diamond influence.......wooooooo!!!!


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Oct 21, 2008)

indicus said:


> It's also interesting to note that some of those in a position to educate the general public; for the most part; have accepted that it's happening anyway; rather then pointing out to those less experienced; why it's important to try and keep captive lines pure to the best of our ability.....



Unfortunately when I have a mate or two round and they wanna see a snake, we'll get to chatting and quite often the "What will you be breeding with what in the future?" Question comes up and they can't seem to understand what the fuss is. I try and explain it to them and I hope they understand but no matter how much I stress the point of not crossing subspecies or anything else I can't help think that if given the oportunity (Quite a number of my mates want a snake off me when I start breeding) some of them might just go and breed a coastal and a jungle, or a jungle and a bredli or something to just because they might have a male and female. 

but I'll still tell em everytime I see em that it's not right and shouldn't be done.


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## PhilK (Oct 21, 2008)

Didn't Hitler believe in keeping things pure...?


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## BrownHash (Oct 21, 2008)

PhilK said:


> Didn't Hitler believe in keeping things pure...?



I guess that invokes Godwin's Law


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## Colin (Oct 22, 2008)

indicus said:


> What a joke...
> With all the brilliant lines available to the public to work with these days....
> There seems to be a large percentage of new keepers that believe instead of putting the time; effort;
> and hard yards into obtaining good quality locality forms....it's so much easier to just cross whatever; to see if you may in fact 'jag' a nice animal.....disgusting; and IMO these people shouldn't be allowed to hold a licence.
> Some have pointed out; why bother? as Parks for the most part; will not enforce laws; that in some states; prohibit the breeding or creation of hybrids....so what? since when have government Departments got it right? Did they not allow the importation of many things that have; in fact already stuffed; or altered our natural bio-diversity for the most part..... it's up to all of us to be responsible for our 'own' actions; seldom seen in the 'New age Aussie'. It's also interesting to note that some of those in a position to educate the general public; for the most part; have accepted that it's happening anyway; rather then pointing out to those less experienced; why it's important to try and keep captive lines pure to the best of our ability..... go through old threads if your not aware as to the many problems associated with the introduction of Hybrids into the hobby; look over-sea's and see just how good there've got it ..... oh that's right; I suppose I'm to be labelled a 'purest'...not a 'realest'




totally agree tremain.. I really think the Government NPWS Departments also need to make reptile licences much harder to obtain.. and make sure people are competent at least in some of the basic elements involved in successful reptile keeping and management before they actually aquire any animals...


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## Retic (Oct 22, 2008)

What is the point of the license if you need absolutely no 'qualifications' to actually obtain it ? It's like handing out a drivers license with a box of cornflakes, actually up here in Queensland I think that IS what they do.


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## herpkeeper (Oct 22, 2008)

I totally agree with Tremain, Colin, and Steve. Can't believe how shallow and narrow sighted some people are, i haven't noticed 1 long term keeper that is willing to contaminate the hobby with mongral hybrids ! is the pre- requisite for a licence to FAIL AN IQ TEST !


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## beeman (Oct 22, 2008)

indicus said:


> What a joke...
> With all the brilliant lines available to the public to work with these days....
> There seems to be a large percentage of new keepers that believe instead of putting the time; effort;
> and hard yards into obtaining good quality locality forms....it's so much easier to just cross whatever; to see if you may in fact 'jag' a nice animal.....disgusting; and IMO these people shouldn't be allowed to hold a licence.
> Some have pointed out; why bother? as Parks for the most part; will not enforce laws; that in some states; prohibit the breeding or creation of hybrids....so what? since when have government Departments got it right? Did they not allow the importation of many things that have; in fact already stuffed; or altered our natural bio-diversity for the most part..... it's up to all of us to be responsible for our 'own' actions; seldom seen in the 'New age Aussie'. It's also interesting to note that some of those in a position to educate the general public; for the most part; have accepted that it's happening anyway; rather then pointing out to those less experienced; why it's important to try and keep captive lines pure to the best of our ability..... go through old threads if your not aware as to the many problems associated with the introduction of Hybrids into the hobby; look over-sea's and see just how good there've got it ..... oh that's right; I suppose I'm to be labelled a 'purest'...not a 'realest'


 
Very well put,


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## cockney red (Oct 22, 2008)

PhilK said:


> Didn't Hitler believe in keeping things pure...?


Only German, human bloodlines.

Read up on some of his Scientists experimental lab work.


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## MissJane (Oct 22, 2008)

BrownHash said:


> I guess that invokes Godwin's Law



Is that the law that suggests the longer a forum thread continues, the probability somebody will liken somebody else to Hitler rises exponentially?


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## Jason (Oct 22, 2008)

boa said:


> What is the point of the license if you need absolutely no 'qualifications' to actually obtain it ? It's like handing out a drivers license with a box of cornflakes, actually up here in Queensland I think that IS what they do.



I agree that NPWS do nothing to encourage the rules they set, but I fear that making licenses harder to obtain it will just result in a greater number of people to not bother getting a license and will encourage them to either catch, buy off license and most likely just result in them getting a corn snake, a boa, or a chameleon. 
In my opinion I don’t think that the legal licensed keepers are that far ahead of the people breeding exotics etc at the moment. I am always meeting an increasing number of people keeping and breeding exotics. While I agree that it should be somewhat more difficult to obtain, possible requiring a reptile’s keeper course, I don’t think it’s the solution and I don’t think they would do it anyway.
I believe that there should be a one-day keeping course before people can get a license or possibly bring in the breeders license that should require a minimum of maybe 5 years keeping and an additional cost etc, which may filter some of the ‘crap’ out.


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## herpkeeper (Oct 22, 2008)

spot on Jason, to bring in a license that require's a minimum of 5 years keeping before your allowed the privilege of breeding our native faunna would be a good thing, i for 1 don't want to see morelia spilota mongralii added to the list ! maybe this might also help to weed out some of the $$$ hungry a-holes that have infested our once great hobby trying to make a quick buck....


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## biggie (Oct 22, 2008)

if it would make me a few million $$$$$ maybe


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## diamondgeeza (Oct 28, 2008)

cement said:


> No offence bro, I live in the heart of diamond python country, and that snake apart from a few minor differences looks like a fairly ordinary diamond. A good looking pure diamond has it all over that. So why go to all the trouble? Mind you, in the wild here probably every fourth or fifth python I have to catch is a stunner, the rest fairly average like that. Got an impressive title though. Diamond zebra jungle with a 25% diamond influence.......wooooooo!!!!



Bully for you sunshine but the reason that some people keep crosses over seas is often down to finances. A diamond python is pretty much out of the reach of many in the UK and Europe due to that they cost an arm and a leg - a diamond cross however is a cheaper alternative for those who like the diamond look and they may cost anything from a tenth of to up to at most a quarter of the price of a true diamond.

Oh and the reason why i bother is due to that the fact the next generation could well end up looking like this fella..


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## diamondgeeza (Oct 28, 2008)

Oh and don't keep your hamster in with the snake for too long as it could lead to yet further unwanted hybrids as in this instance in Romania. It has to be said that it certainly looks cute and could double up as a scarf too which is pretty handy if you are subjected to cold winters!


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## Retic (Oct 28, 2008)

Now I do like that idea, we have a few drafty doors and if you could get them to lie still it would be the perfect solution.


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## krefft (Nov 4, 2008)

Great photo Diamondgeeza...what is it?


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## dizone (Nov 19, 2008)

Hey I'm new here so take it easy on me, and if this is against the rules let me know and i'll take it down, but i'd be interested to know what people's opinions are about the following advertisement i've seen doing the rounds on a couple of reputable sites 

http://reptilesdownunder.com/ahc/animal.php?saleID=22442

Last time I checked Morelia Spilota Mcdowelli was a coastal carpet python, and Morelia S. Spilota was a diamond python; so why are these people referring to "Morelia Spilota Mcdowelli/Spilota" as "NORTHERN RAINFOREST DIAMONDS"?


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## NCHERPS (Nov 19, 2008)

dizone said:


> Hey I'm new here so take it easy on me, and if this is against the rules let me know and i'll take it down, but i'd be interested to know what people's opinions are about the following advertisement i've seen doing the rounds on a couple of reputable sites
> 
> http://reptilesdownunder.com/ahc/animal.php?saleID=22442
> 
> Last time I checked Morelia Spilota Mcdowelli was a coastal carpet python, and Morelia S. Spilota was a diamond python; so why are these people referring to "Morelia Spilota Mcdowelli/Spilota" as "NORTHERN RAINFOREST DIAMONDS"?



They would probably be natural intergrades,ie.Port Mac carpets, but without knowing the history behind them I am only guessing. The Natural intergrades haven't been allocated a scientific name as far as I am aware, so that may be the reason they have listed it the way they have.


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## NCHERPS (Nov 19, 2008)

Interesting to look at the Poll up top.
Pretty much 50% would keep them or breed them.

Wow! Just goes to show that maybe aussies are mellowing towards the old cross breeds.

At least there is 50% at the moment that will keep there lines pure to.

Wonder if the stats will remain the same over the next couple of years once more cross breeds show themselves in more numbers?

Neil


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 19, 2008)

Yes, Northern rainforest diamonds is a name some people are giving to intergrade carpets. Nice ones though.... 

They're not classed as their own subspecies. As far as I know anyway, and I don't think they will be since there's no real definition between diamonds, coastals and intergrades. Some areas close to the intergrade zone, but not in it, can pop up with an intergrade looking animal occasionally. Similarly you'll sometimes find a python in the intergrade zone that looks like a pure diamond or coastal. 

Or at least that's my understanding of it all.


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## draqonfly (Dec 29, 2008)

um... "knock knock"

is it wrong to have cross breeds of animals? like snakes?

if so why? is it because of the eco-system? things might become unbalanced? the food chain might be effected? 

or is it the health of the snakes at risk? evolution ?

i dont know, just an innocent question.

humans are crossbreeding like rabbits these days though.... i dont mind it.... but why do humans see cross breeding of animals something out of the ordinary?


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## Ned_fisch (Dec 29, 2008)

draqonfly said:


> humans are crossbreeding like rabbits these days though.... i dont mind it.... but why do humans see cross breeding of animals something out of the ordinary?



How is a White person haveing kids with a Black person wrong? They are both humans.
Its just the same as Breeding a Black Staffy with a White staffy..


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## draqonfly (Dec 29, 2008)

trouser_snake6 said:


> How is a White person haveing kids with a Black person wrong? They are both humans.
> Its just the same as Breeding a Black Staffy with a White staffy..


exactly !

im also a crossbreed myself


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## diamondgeeza (Dec 31, 2008)

draqonfly said:


> exactly !
> 
> im also a crossbreed myself








Me too


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## craigryan (Dec 31, 2008)

Diamondgezza, That is Hilarious. Cheers


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## krefft (Dec 31, 2008)

Yep, sometimes you can keep the line a little too pure!


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## Ramsayi (Dec 31, 2008)

draqonfly said:


> exactly !
> 
> im also a crossbreed myself



May I ask what sort of cross you are? Half human,half ? :shock:


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## diamondgeeza (Dec 31, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> May I ask what sort of cross you are? Half human,half ? :shock:



Scottish !


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## elapid66 (Dec 31, 2008)

x breed or don't xbreed who cares not me :shock: :lol:


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## Everny (Jan 1, 2009)

surely animals that breed in captivity will breed are able to breed of their own accord in the wild - creating their own species mix?


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## diamondgeeza (Jan 3, 2009)

Everny said:


> surely animals that breed in captivity will breed are able to breed of their own accord in the wild - creating their own species mix?



Just not all the bredli can afford the airfare to make the trip to go mate with the jungles in Cairns or the diamonds in Jervis Bay!


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## Everny (Jan 3, 2009)

lol. point taken. i managed to overlook this fact...


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## aliveandkicking (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm for pure lines, however, I see nothing wrong with people breeding and selling X's provided they are honest and up front the the purchase.


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## funcouple (Jan 3, 2009)

aliveandkicking said:


> I'm for pure lines, however, I see nothing wrong with people breeding and selling X's provided they are honest and up front the the purchase.


 
thats ok if the seller dose that. but what happens when the buyer becomes the sell and dosent tell the next buyer? you will also have this problem with a normal looking snake that carries crossed blood. somewhere down the line when its bred this crossed blood will show through, spoiling a breeding program.
stay pure and keep our native snakes safe


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## Eylandt (Jan 3, 2009)

Couldnt have said it better myself funcouple!


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## diamondgeeza (Jan 3, 2009)

The bigger potential problem in your country is not people creating the crosses in the first place but keeping species outside of their natural range. If the species kept then escape from their captive environment - interbreed thus contaminating the local gene pools causing an unnatural hybridisation in an area it could have a devastating effect for the future.


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## Emmalicious (Jan 26, 2009)

I'd rather just get pure snakes, instead of cross breeds! I haven't really seen any nice cross breeds anyway!


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## craig23 (Feb 2, 2009)

The problem I find with most reptile keepers/breeders, is we use the argument all the time against Authorities, that we are providing a back up to wild animals, in the case of a natural disaster.
It is well known that there are many views on how valuable captive collections are in relations to conservation, and im not interested in having that debate now.
In any case amateur keepers/breeders provide endless information on captive care, reproduction, habits etc etc of our native species that has been, and will continue to be, very imporant in wildlife conservation.
In many instances, information from private breeders has been the hall mark for zoos and parks.

It would be real nice if our hobby could continue to provide an important role. I see breeding hybrids and crossbreed as a means of "breeding out" any usefull role we play in conservation. It also means that once this practise becomes the norm, our animals can not be trusted to be pure, in any collection, making our records and experiences worthless to conservation. I think thats a shame.

It has always been the intention of the aurthorities to allow us to keep and breed reptiles as a hobby and not an industry.

Also........... we all know about exotic species imported for collectors.... there are places that red eared sliders are found happily breeding in the wild, and places corn snakes are also breeding in the wild here in OZ.... now if people cant be responsible with exotics, of all things..... what are we going to do when our much more common captive "native hybrids" get out... and start hybridising with local populations of morelia?????? It is actually a environmental threat as far as im concerned... more so than exotics.


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## Vassallo2008 (Feb 2, 2009)

Meh doesnt phase me.. Its only worth it if they look stunning.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Feb 2, 2009)

bring on the morelia milkshake

mix them sub species good and proper till we get pink carpets with polka dots


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## mark83 (Feb 17, 2009)

pure is definately better. all you can do is hope that when theyre not pure the breeder is honest about it


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## christo (Feb 23, 2009)

diamondgeeza said:


> The bigger potential problem in your country is not people creating the crosses in the first place but keeping species outside of their natural range. If the species kept then escape from their captive environment - interbreed thus contaminating the local gene pools causing an unnatural hybridisation in an area it could have a devastating effect for the future.



All my snakes are outside their natural range. But if they get out there aint much for them to breed with (except maybe other escapees). Come winter they'd be dead anyway.


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## nos001 (Mar 8, 2009)

NCHERPS said:


> In light of the recent thread, I thought it would be interesting to do a poll and get a snap shot of members views on how they feel about crossing subspecies today or in the near future.
> 
> Please be honest in your answers when polling.
> 
> Cheers Neil


 
i personally wont be how ever i dont understand why sometimes it is so frowned upon there are some very nice snakes beeing breed that way such as the red hypo jag on www.serpentsonline.com they say they are not how ever i cant track one down in this country and i have tried for about 2yrs .
my question is where does this stop albino over normal makes hets if im not mistaken and there are plenty of them around


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## Vixen (Mar 8, 2009)

nos001 said:


> i personally wont be how ever i dont understand why sometimes it is so frowned upon there are some very nice snakes beeing breed that way such as the red hypo jag on www.serpentsonline.com they say they are not how ever i cant track one down in this country and i have tried for about 2yrs .
> my question is where does this stop albino over normal makes hets if im not mistaken and there are plenty of them around


 
There are also outstanding PURE animals, there is no need to crossbreed with the number of beautiful lines turning up nowadays.

Please explain your albino comment also, are you implying albinos are hybrids? Because they are not.


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## Mick87 (Mar 9, 2009)

ok so hypertheticaly
if i bred a striped coastal or a bredli with an albino darwins 
to be kept as a pet in my colection and not use the offspring as breeding stock 
thats legal ? 

soz just the way i read the licensing i thought we wernt aloud to.

im all for keeping the lines pure for selling and what not

but i wouldn't mind owning something new so long as i could quarantine it properly.


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## indyspotted (Mar 22, 2009)

*cross breeding view from a newbie*

Just an opinion from a newbie just bitten( and hard )by the herp loving bug.

Whilst I am new at snakes I have always had horses and have just started Breeding my first Paints, Whilst most of us tend to frown very strongly against people cross breeding any unreg Horses they have and producing spavined ugly conformationally shocking animals in a market that is already flooded with so many unwanted horses, I am honestly asking because I dont know, Is there any sort of harm healthwise etc that cross breeding sub species in snakes can cause??

Also, there seems to be no need to register breeds by parentage as there is with horses or dogs for example, Like buying a purebred Border Collie, So I guess this would make it easier for breeders to pass of there x breeds as pure as I guess its just thier word for it and someone uneducated who lacks experience like me would maybe not know the diff?

I dont have an opinion yet as such but if someone breeds a stunning animal that is healthy and unusually patterned or coloured but otherwise in good health and sold as what it is or kept as a pet then I dont see the harm, Purists should know the diff and the pure lines should be safe.


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## haymista (Mar 22, 2009)

haha another newbie opinion
Nothing better than a purebreed i think, xbreeds will never have anything on them, but after saying that, if you are VERY responsible bout it and you know exactly what youre doing then xbreeding for your personal collection would be ok, but never for selling, and more importantly to clearly define it as a xbreed, itd be a tradgey if 50 years from now purebreeds would become a rareity
then again i dont know much bout genetics or what damages it could do to a snakes health so its not something id do


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## 74save_snakes74 (Mar 30, 2009)

can you breed a jungle and a bredli?


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## beach (Apr 5, 2009)

*Crossing sub-species*

I prefer to keep mine pure


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## puppet_master (Apr 5, 2009)

Deka69 said:


> Drop kicks on every fourum...give yourself an uppercut have a glass of milk and go to bed $NaKe PiMp
> 
> 
> Kind regards
> ...


 
So he's a drop kick because his opinion is different to yours?


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## lizardsNturtles (May 4, 2009)

snakes would of been all hybrids to start of with like the ones around my place their all hybrids.
just sayen something i also think that some kybrids look good while others i would class as mutts would be the most common.


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## Lewy (May 4, 2009)

lizardsNturtles said:


> snakes would of been all hybrids to start of with like the ones around my place their all hybrids.
> just sayen something i also think that some kybrids look good while others i would class as mutts would be the most common.


 

OMG you have to be kidding surely!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lizardsNturtles (May 6, 2009)

i dont realy know if i am i just wrote something down what did i say??


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## notechistiger (May 6, 2009)

I... think you're tripping on something, lizardsNturtles.


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## stuartandconnie (May 6, 2009)

um years ago a very well respcted bird breeder crossed a olive scally breasted lorrikett [wild caught] with a rainbow lorrikeet 2 esablish the olive rainbow and thay wereworth money top bird breeders do this and thay dont tell any 1 till its esablished um i wonder how long its goin to b till snake breeders do the same


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## hectorsue (May 10, 2009)

Tatelina said:


> *cheers*
> Hooray! The best post I've read all day!


 i agree


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## herpkeeper (May 11, 2009)

this is what you get when you cross a bredli with a jungle then cross it back to a diamond crossed darwin


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## arbok (May 11, 2009)

herpkeeper said:


> this is what you get when you cross a bredli with a jungle then cross it back to a diamond crossed darwin




bloody ripper, know anyone who would have offspring available?


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## Beardieboy (May 11, 2009)

I guess it really just comes down to what your goals are for breeding:
-preserving pure locality genetics in captive animals?
-breeding interesting/different looking snakes for pets?
-making money?
-something else?

There can be just as much damage done to a species by inbreeding and reducing genetic diversity as there can be interbreeding between subspecies and localities. 

My Stimmie is from the sandfire region and although I'd love to breed from him, I will be waiting until I can find a girl from a similar region - both to keep his nice colours in his offspring, and also to preserve the genetics of the snakes that had to be taken from the wild so I could have him. 

I guess we all have our own opinions on this issue which is fine - perhaps the people who are passionate about keeping pure lines should form an organisation and keep registered pedigrees for their snakes - if they're serious about conservation of genetics and species for insurance for wild populations, this would be the way to do it. Unfortunately, trusting every person who breeds snakes just doesn't seem to be an option in today's world!


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## Gazza (May 19, 2009)

Check out the diamond x jungle i once owned, the photo is in my gallery, a friend bred hybrids over 3 generations now he has a banded form with the same colours


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## Kris (May 19, 2009)

I like snakes.


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## Lewy (May 19, 2009)

olive.p said:


> Check out the diamond x jungle i once owned, the photo is in my gallery, a friend bred hybrids over 3 generations now he has a banded form with the same colours


 

WOW you must be so proud


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## Brown_Hair (Jul 23, 2009)

Whats wrong with hybrids, if its a beautiful snake or reptile that isnt deformed or disabled then everyone is a winner! Its said that we have pure beautiful snakes, and we do indeed, so what wrong with cross breading and having more. To me its the same as people wanting exotics.
This isnt a personal attack on you Ramsayi and you are entitled to your opinion but not to deal with anyone because of breeding hybrids is imo a bit to far. You should be able to respect others decisions and views. 
I hope none of you anti-hybrid's keep cats or dogs that arnt either wolfs or dingoes or tigers and leapords


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## diamondgeeza (Aug 27, 2009)

Maybe a couple


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## mebebrian (Sep 6, 2009)

currently 324 various forms of yes to 290 no's. Quite a close call.

I was sure there would be more no's.
Bring on the hybrids and hypo's i say!


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## RemoverAccount (Sep 26, 2009)

Lots of opinion both ways - but how does a newbie (like me) make and informed choice, and know what they are buying?


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## Lewy (Sep 26, 2009)

Chickenlover said:


> Lots of opinion both ways - but how does a newbie (like me) make and informed choice, and know what they are buying?


 

Simply buy off a trust worthy seller who has the decency to keep thing pure


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## wranga (Sep 26, 2009)

Chickenlover said:


> Lots of opinion both ways - but how does a newbie (like me) make and informed choice, and know what they are buying?


 hybrids.. could have or end up with health problems from cross breeding sub-species from differant localities that have different temperature and humidities. so at what temperature and humidity do you keep this hybrid snake? bit of a lucky dip isnt it. at least with a pure species you know the locality that it comes from and you can keep it at the temperature and humidity that it would live in if it was wild.
buy from someone that comes with recommendation from users of this site. the site has lots of trusted breeders that only breed healthy pure species.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 26, 2009)

What is that theory based on Wranga? What you have heard or is it a proven scientific fact?


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## RemoverAccount (Sep 26, 2009)

Lewy said:


> Simply buy off a trust worthy seller who has the decency to keep thing pure


 
Good in theory - but that relies on believing what is said without knowing the obvious tells that comes with experience. 

Happy to see a list of 'trust-worthy' sellers 8)


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## wranga (Sep 26, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> What is that theory based on Wranga? What you have heard or is it a proven scientific fact?


my theory is based on common sence and the well being of the snake.
so you would say its ok to cross a darwin python with a murray darling python, how about a darwin with a diamond? what temperature and humidity would you keep the hybirds from these pairing? thanks in advance for your reply


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## bfg23 (Sep 27, 2009)

im years from breeding yet, but what happens if you breed a black and gold jungle with a black and white julatten jungle.
do you get half black and gold, half black and white, or is it random?
cheers.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 27, 2009)

You offer them a thermal gradient like you do with any reptile, or do you keep your animals in a constant temperature zone?


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## Reptile City (Sep 27, 2009)

Cross Breeding species or subspecies is ILLEGAL & I hope anyone who does it loses there whole reptile collection!!!!!!!!!!

Line breeding for traits is the way to get unusal looking patterns & colors the LEGAL way!!!!!!!!!

Some breeders have put in the hard yards to get some awesome looking reptiles.
Some breeders are just too lazy & *couldnt care less* about the hobbie, *just the money*!
*Dont *suport these losers in anyway!
If no one buys from these mungrel makers then they wouldnt do it!

Jason


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## Lewy (Sep 28, 2009)

What people don't get is that is takes years and years of breeding to make something nice you just can't cross a diamond with a bredli and expect a nice looking snake!! It just doesn't work like that. But I no there are all these newbies out there who think this is what's done but they are so far wrong. All you are going to do if you just wake up one day with this fantastic new Idea of crossing 2 subspecies together is create a crappy looking animal 

It's simply... For all the people who have no idea about genetics and or what the hell they are doing then just leave it alone.. As all you are going to do is create crap!! and not make the thousand's of $$$ you think your going to 

And just for the record if people didn't all ready know I'm against it all and will only breed pure lines 

Lewy


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## hardcorey007 (Sep 28, 2009)

Reptile City said:


> Cross Breeding species or subspecies is ILLEGAL/QUOTE]
> 
> And what legislation do you base this on? It's in black and white in Queensland, but I am yet to see it in black and white anywhere else. Would love to be shown it if it does exist.


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## Freemason2250 (Sep 28, 2009)

HAHA 
I think it's funny how people think breeders don't want to breed hybrids because of some type of moral or ethic, Simple fact is they don't breed them because they can't make any money from them.
You will see how true this is if people ever start a fad with owning hybrids, Breeders will be spitting them all over the shop and they will become the norm.

I find people trying to sell Coastal and children's hatchies for $250 each just as unethical, I remember a member of this site contacting me a few years ago wanting to buy an adult snake from me which I was selling for the same price he was selling hatchies for yet he told me it was too expensive:lol: Unbelievable!

Seriosly keeping reptiles has become a major pi$$ing contest of who has more, who has better,who can breed more,what their snakes are worth,reduced pattern,special locales,hypo,melanisitic...And it's not for the pleasure of owning an amazing animals it's more to do with how much money they can make and the "look at me" status.

Anyways I would never breed x-breds for the simple fact they don't appeal to me, I really couldn't give a rat's dong what "top breeders" or the "herp community" think as I am not here for acceptance or show boating but for my love of reptiles.


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## carpetmuncher (Sep 28, 2009)

hardcorey007 said:


> Reptile City said:
> 
> 
> > Cross Breeding species or subspecies is ILLEGAL/QUOTE]
> ...


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## pythons73 (Sep 28, 2009)

Well said Freemason,im also one that is against hybrids...Ive actually got a Coastal here that was sold to me as a Port Mac,i intended on breeding her this season BUT im not cause she looks nothing like my other Port Macs..Also ive got another 2 females that ive paired up with males..Dont get me wrong,i like the look of some hybrids,especially some of the Yanks ones...Theirs people on both sides of the fence on this subject...we all cant like or dislike the same things...As for what temperature you would keep say a Darwin x Murray Darling or whatever,like most Morelia 32-34c hot end-22-26 cool end...Simple...


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## longqi (Sep 28, 2009)

I have played with snakes for over 40 years
This whole debate is just a joke
Does anyone truly believe that a high yellow diamond would have existed in the wild without cross breeding [I have watched wild coastal/diamonds mating many times]
A healthy hybrid is a much better snake than any form of albino [which rarely survive in the wild]

Coastals were popular in Darwin a few years ago
Many escaped and now there are some beautifully coloured NTs up there

As far as I know I do not own any hybrids and would not knowingly buy any at this stage
BUT if jaguars were available here I might change my mind
or pepper sarong/blue GTP 

I head over to various reptile shows every year
Good hybrids survive and command large dollars
Bad ones dont and neither do their breeders


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## Freemason2250 (Sep 28, 2009)

longqi said:


> Does anyone truly believe that a high yellow diamond would have existed in the wild without cross breeding



Well since Diamonds are the only wild pythons we have on the Central Coast I would have to say yes.


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## pythons73 (Sep 28, 2009)

When i lived down south,Newcastle and the Central Coast ALL the Diamonds i came across were dark with small rosettes,ive never actually seen a high yellow Diamond in the wild,thats not to say their isnt any...Their can always be a one off situation...which can happen..just look at the wild Albinos.


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## fine_jungles (Sep 28, 2009)

i think people should remember that regular hybrids are absolute garbage ,
only when a magical gen is involved eg jag ect ,do they become half decent. 
i think people are leting jags represent all hybrids.

:lol: lonqi ,quote Does anyone truly believe that a high yellow 
diamond would have existed in the wild without cross breeding ; quote 

 that was a stupid thing to say mate ,absolute garbage ,
most pure wild gosford diamonds absolutely glow. 


if hybrids are involved ,clowns are involved iv noticed


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## Contagion (Sep 28, 2009)

longqi said:


> I have played with snakes for over 40 years
> This whole debate is just a joke
> Does anyone truly believe that a high yellow diamond would have existed in the wild without cross breeding [I have watched wild coastal/diamonds mating many times]
> A healthy hybrid is a much better snake than any form of albino [which rarely survive in the wild]
> ...






You're an idiot......


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## GreggMadden (Sep 28, 2009)

:shock:


Freemason2250 said:


> HAHA
> I think it's funny how people think breeders don't want to breed hybrids because of some type of moral or ethic, Simple fact is they don't breed them because they can't make any money from them.


 
Are you insane??? :lol:
There is much money
to be made in hybrids... They almost always go for more money than pure locals or even species...

I am a breeder and I do not agree with most hybrids but some are acceptable to me if it is a natrual cross or intergrade...

Believe it or not, there are many breeders with good ethics out there...


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## Freemason2250 (Sep 28, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> :shock:
> 
> Are you insane??? :lol:
> There is much money
> ...



Yeah hybrids always go for a tonne of money in Australia


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## Reptile City (Sep 29, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> hardcorey007 said:
> 
> 
> > come on mate, everyone knows if you write in capitals, you must know what you're talking about. if reptile city says they are ILLEGAL, i guess we have to cop it.
> ...


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## hardcorey007 (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks for that Reptile City. That's the first time anyone outside of QLD has been able to show me where it is written. So we've established that it is illegal in QLD and SA. Still doesn't mean you can use a blanket statement that it is illegal on a website that is veiwed nation wide (and international too) Might pay to say that it is illegal in SA and QLD. I have asked NT parks and wildlife about whether it is illegal her and I was told most definitely NO! They just go under the species code of the mother. I don't agree with them going under the mothers code and would prefer they created cross and hybrid codes and they could go under them.

And just for the record I don't have any crosses or hybrids and I haven't bred any.


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## carpetmuncher (Sep 30, 2009)

hardcorey007 said:


> So we've established that it is illegal in QLD and SA. Still doesn't mean you can use a blanket statement that it is illegal on a website that is veiwed nation wide (and international too) Might pay to say that it is illegal in SA and QLD. .


 

well i don't know if it is in SA's legislation, a bulletin sent out by NPWS hardly constitutes law. NPWS are reknowned for making it up on the run and telling people what 'the law' is and usually getting it wrong. need to show legislation to persuade me. it's funny how anti-hybrid people always say it's illegal, but here in qld it is the same legislation that makes mutations illegal and everybody ignores that part. and why aren't NPWS taking everybodies' albino carpets and olives off them and prosecuting them in Qld. there should be a corruption enquiry to stop this illegal activity. why can someone in qld advertise albino darwins and not be suspended from this site for promoting an illegal activity? a bit selective with which laws people should obey, just prosecute the hybrid folk, hey.


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## MechanisedXRATX (Oct 6, 2009)

*not allowed.*

I want to breed a rough scale python x green python, but i rang the epa and they said its not allowed. It would be good to just keep one egg, but not allowed. I would call them rough greens, but not allowed. chrondo carinata but cannot cross species that sucks.


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## MikeCurtin (Nov 6, 2009)

This "yank" chose the first option, but will ad a caveat to my choice. A couple years ago, I hatched out a very aberrant 75% Jungle, 25% Coastal Jaguar carpet. It looks similar to Paul Harris' "Ocelot" Jag. Because of this, and to see if there is a possibility that a new inheritable trait exists, I will try and breed these animals within the same line. I will concentrate my efforts primarily on Jag x Jag pairings to reduce the number of normal siblings on the market. If this aberration cannot be duplicated within the first few pairings, I have serious doubts as to whether I'd continue crossing them. 

As for my other pairings, I'll be pairing up locale specific coastals, atherton jungles, NG's (which I lean towards calling "cape jungles", Bredl's, and other pure types. In the states, as you all know, there is limited locality data on animals, so most of us are reduced to breeding "types", such as JCP type, Coastal type, etc. This is where the bulk of my projects will be concentrated.

I must also say that while there are some people over here that have "locale specific" animals, these locales are based on where the collector said the ancestors were collected prior to the export ban, or where they were collected post ban (the reason I don't believe the "NG" carpets available in the US are from the island of New Guinea). There is too much room for error when animals go through multiple hands.


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## serpaint (Nov 6, 2009)

I think breed pure lines and be proud of what you produce, or mix 'sensibly and carefully' and be proud of what you produce, but NEVER say a snake is what it is not (especially) for the sake of a sale, and don't sit on the fence and say what ever the majority are voicing as opinion.
Honesty is always best, say what you mean and mean what you say or don't go there in the first place.


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## wranga (Nov 6, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> This "yank" chose the first option, but will ad a caveat to my choice. A couple years ago, I hatched out a very aberrant 75% Jungle, 25% Coastal Jaguar carpet. It looks similar to Paul Harris' "Ocelot" Jag. Because of this, and to see if there is a possibility that a new inheritable trait exists, I will try and breed these animals within the same line. I will concentrate my efforts primarily on Jag x Jag pairings to reduce the number of normal siblings on the market. If this aberration cannot be duplicated within the first few pairings, I have serious doubts as to whether I'd continue crossing them.
> 
> As for my other pairings, I'll be pairing up locale specific coastals, atherton jungles, NG's (which I lean towards calling "cape jungles", Bredl's, and other pure types. In the states, as you all know, there is limited locality data on animals, so most of us are reduced to breeding "types", such as JCP type, Coastal type, etc. This is where the bulk of my projects will be concentrated.
> 
> I must also say that while there are some people over here that have "locale specific" animals, these locales are based on where the collector said the ancestors were collected prior to the export ban, or where they were collected post ban (the reason I don't believe the "NG" carpets available in the US are from the island of New Guinea). There is too much room for error when animals go through multiple hands.


 
just wondering how many ugly un-wanted snakes you or others produce from your cross pairings before you are able to produce that good looking snake that is wanted? and what happens with all the un-wanted snakes? are they just given away or sold off cheap so their not your problem?


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## MikeCurtin (Nov 7, 2009)

serpaint said:


> I think breed pure lines and be proud of what you produce, or mix 'sensibly and carefully' and be proud of what you produce, but NEVER say a snake is what it is not (especially) for the sake of a sale, and don't sit on the fence and say what ever the majority are voicing as opinion.
> Honesty is always best, say what you mean and mean what you say or don't go there in the first place.


I agree wholeheartedly!!! Full disclosure is paramount, and careful planning is crucial when seeking the best traits of any given species or cross. 



wranga said:


> just wondering how many ugly un-wanted snakes you or others produce from your cross pairings before you are able to produce that good looking snake that is wanted? and what happens with all the un-wanted snakes? are they just given away or sold off cheap so their not your problem?


While I can't speak for others, I can say for myself that I don't think I produce any more "ugly, unwanted" snakes from my carefully planned crosses than others produce from their not so carefully planned "pure" pairings. I have yet to have any problems selling the normals. Last year, I offered them free with Jag purchases, but I sold more in cash transactions than I gave with Jags. 

Again, I want to repeat that I choose carefully as to what I will pair up and what I won't. Especially where the US reptile "market" currently is, if I don't think a particular pairing is going to produce animals people will want, those animals just hang out looking good and eating. There are enough folks out there pairing up dozens of animals every year (pure and cross), that I don't feel the need to be among them.


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