# "Feral" is a term used too loosely here



## Dipcdame (Dec 31, 2008)

Okay, lets put this to rest here and now. There are those on this site all too quick to refer to cats as "feral". Domestic cats in the community whether having owners or not are NOT "feral", they are strays, the same as dogs are referred to if lost or homeless. 

Wikipedia refers to feral cats as such:

"In Australia, the term "feral cat" refers to cats l*iving and breeding entirely in the wild*. Significant populations of Australian wildlife that are poorly adapted to this effective predator, including marsupials, reptiles, and birds, have allowed the establishment of stable feral cat populations across most of the country.

Adult feral cats that were never socialized with humans can rarely be socialized. Feral kittens can sometimes be socialized to live with dogs. The ideal time for capture is between six and eight weeks of age. Taming at this age may take only a couple of days. Older kittens can be tamed, but it takes longer. Also, an older kitten may bond only with the person working with him or her, which can make adoption difficult but not impossible.

Feral cats may live alone but are usually found in large groups called feral colonies. The average life span of a feral cat that survives beyond kittenhood is usually cited at less than two years,[2] while an indoor domestic housecat lives an average of 14 to 20 years. However, feral cats aged 19 (Cat Action Trust) and 26 (Cats Protection) have been reported where food and shelter are available.

Urban areas, Australia, and North America are not native environments for cats. The domestic cat comes from temperate or hot, dry climates and was distributed throughout the world by humans. Cats are extremely adaptable, and feral felines have been found in conditions of extreme cold and heat. They are more susceptible to cold, damp conditions than to cold alone. In addition, they are vulnerable to predators such as dogs, feral pigs, wolves, bears, cougars, bobcats, foxes, crocodilians, birds of prey, and coyotes.

Feral cats in Australia prey on a variety of wildlife. In arid and semi-arid environments, they eat mostly introduced European rabbits and house mice; in forests and urbanised areas, they eat mostly native marsupial prey (based on 22 studies summarised in Dickman 1996). In arid environments where rabbits do not occur, native rodents are taken. Birds form a smaller part of the diet, mostly in forests and urbanised areas, reptiles also form just a small part of the diet. It has been suggested that feral cats have been present in Australia since before European settlement, and may have arrived with Dutch shipwrecks in the 17th century, or even before that, arriving from present-day Indonesia with Macassan fisherman and trepangers who frequented Australia's shores. However historical records do not suggest this, instead dating the arrival of feral cats at around 1824.[3] Intentional releases were made in the late 19th century to control mice, rabbits and rats. Cats had colonised their present range in Australia by 1890. Evidence for early predation by cats having caused major and widespread declines in native fauna is circumstantial and anecdotal and its credibility and significance is debated (Abbot 2002, Dickman 1996).

Numerous Australian environmentalists and conservationists claim that the feral cat has been an ecological disaster in Australia, inhabiting most ecosystems except dense rainforest, and being implicated in the extinction of several marsupial and placental mammal species (Robley et al 2004). But scientific evidence supporting this view has been hard to come by, and some researchers disagree with it (Abbot 2002). There is little sound evidence that feral cats significantly affect native wildlife throughout the mainland (Dickman 1996; Jones 1989; Wilson et al. 1992). Difficulties in separating the effects of cats from that of foxes (also introduced) and environmental effects have hindered research into this. Cats have co-existed with all mammal species in Tasmania for nearly 200 years.[3] The Western Shield program in Western Australia, involving broad-scale poisoning of foxes, has resulted in rapid recoveries of many species of native mammals in spite of the presence of feral cats throughout the baited area..............."

AND FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

*Unintended consequences*

In some cases, the removal of cats had unintended consequences, such as on Macquarie Island where the removal of cats caused an explosion in the number of rabbits and rats which also harmed native seabirds.

.......................and so the flaming from cat haters begins........................................


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## pinkmus (Dec 31, 2008)

I agree that feral cats arent all cats that arent off the owners property or have no owner. But better not quote wikipedia as anyone can edit it and it can be someones opinon. Im not saying that what is written is wrong. Iv got a lot to learn about this myself.


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## redbellybite (Dec 31, 2008)

well dipsy you obviously are up for a fight on APS .............so as a frequant flyer on this site I am out of this post as it is sure to stir up a hornets nest ..........................................


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## itbites (Dec 31, 2008)

a cat is still feral imo! They should ALL be banned


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## miley_take (Dec 31, 2008)

it's a very good point...also one of the more interesting topics up at the moment...hope not to see this thread closed early on, not putting money on it though


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## funcouple (Dec 31, 2008)

i think ill just sit here eating popcorn and read the posts


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## itbites (Dec 31, 2008)

lol


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## Dipcdame (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm not up for a fight, I'm not that bothered really, but it may certainy bring some out of the woodwork!!!!! I have had my say.

Sitting back with funcouple, stealing their popcorn!!!! (thanks, funcouple)


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## cris (Dec 31, 2008)

If it doesnt have a collar its feral and its the right thing to get rid of them. When you consider how many animals cats kill the arguement that its wrong to kill them because it causes an animal to die is pretty weak.


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## Jewly (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm not getting into an argument with people over cats but I just wanted to say this.

I bet there are a lot more people in Australia who hate snakes more than they do cats, and I'm sure they would love to kill everyone of our snakes. Cats are not the only thing that kill native animals. Dogs are just as bad, so for all those people who round up cats and kill them and preach that you're doing a great service to the native animals (when in fact all it comes down to is you hate cats) then you had better round up all those stray dogs and kill them too.


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## Dipcdame (Dec 31, 2008)

chris, only as long as it's done by the authorities, the council, animal shelters, vets, then ok, but no-one should have the right to pick up a cat, decide it's a stray, and just take it's life. They shold drop it into an animal shelter, or council pound.


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## bundybear (Dec 31, 2008)

sorry-dipcdame------you-lost-me-at
_Wikipedia refers to...................._


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 31, 2008)

cris said:


> If it doesnt have a collar its feral and its the right thing to get rid of them. When you consider how many animals cats kill the arguement that its wrong to kill them because it causes an animal to die is pretty weak.


I agree chris, feral or stray,,who cares, they are all good for helping my accuracy with the rifle, and the wheels of my car.
Stray cats and "feral" cats have been bumping uglies with your cute lil outside pet moggies
for ages.
If the cats restricted from contact with the local wildlife then its not an issue.
Dipcy, if the cat has a collar then it gets a bit more consideration , but ill be buggered if im
catching every cat i see on the peninsula for the pound to euthanise.
Oh yes, i am not a cat hater, i just love our native fauna.
I dont hate any animal.


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## paleoherp (Dec 31, 2008)

Cats are too well established in Australia now. It's more a question now of trying to manage the numbers, educate people about the damage that cats cause and lobby local government to enforced tougher regulations.
In my opinion responsible cat owners are few and far between. I think baning them from being sold in pet shops would be a great start and although I am a dog owner I don't think that they should be sold in pet shops either.
I am not up for any arguments, so this will be my one and only post on the subject, but here is some info which I posted on another thred recently which some of you might of seen. This was published 10 years ago by DPI about cats in Victoria.

Background
Cats are present throughout Victoria, as domestic pets, free-living strays, or as truly feral animals. Estimates in all these categories suggest that there are well over one million cats in the State.

Cats are obligate carnivores, that is, they must feed on animal protein. Each cat requires a minimum of 100-150g of protein each day, more if a female is nursing a litter. This means that an equivalent of at least seven small mammals, such as native Bush Rats, must be eaten each week by each cat.

Even cats that are well fed, apparently contented pets, will instinctively hunt and kill living creatures. An average of 32 wild animals may be killed by each pet cat every year. Each feral cat can kill many more. The potential impact on wildlife is enormous.

What impact do cats have on wildlife?
Cats are known to kill and eat more than 100 native Australian species of birds, 50 mammals, 50 reptiles, three frogs and numerous invertebrate animals. As more knowledge is obtained more animals continue to be added to the list.

Cats are a major threat to wildlife in the bush, where they are common and occur in most habitats, as well as in towns and cities. For example, in 1992, in response to a plague of native rats in south-west Queensland, where the endangered native Bilby survives, feral cat numbers were observed to be at high levels. The Australian Army was called in to assist with control and, to the amazement of wildlife managers, shot 417 cats in four days within 20 km of the Bilby site. Up to six cats were shot out of a single tree in one day! Of interest is that the high cat numbers were on a cattle station on which dingo control was rigourous. Neighbouring stations, with more dingos, had less cats. Cats can survive on water from prey in areas where drinking water is unavailable.

In Australia, cats (and dogs) have no natural predators. The hunting methods of cats are different to native predators, such as quolls, and so native wildlife has few inbuilt defences against cats.

Cats are most active at night, and especially at dusk and dawn. This coincides with the activity periods of much of our Australian wildlife, placing native animals at risk.
Cats kill prey of up to their own body size; most of Australia’s endangered and vulnerable mammals are in this size category.

Cats can significantly control bird populations. Studies in South Australia indicate that domestic cats probably kill the 'standing crop' of birds, (i.e. the same number are killed as are produced each year).

Cats are significant predators on small mammals. In 15 months one wildlife shelter in Melbourne received 272 native mammals with injuries that resulted from cat attacks; 242 of these were Common Ringtail Possums. Almost all died as a result of the attacks.

Cats have also been responsible for the death of at least 25% of all Sugar Gliders registered in the former Wildlife Management Branch (now DSE) collection.

Cat’s mouths can carry bacteria to which wildlife has little resistance, and wildlife that has been injured by cats usually dies - if not from injuries, then from infection.

Cats are the definitive host of the blood protozoan disease Toxoplasmosis which can affect wildlife, sheep and humans. It can cause unco-ordination, blindness, erratic movement and unnatural daytime activity. Toxoplasmosis is often fatal for infected wildlife. It can have effects on reproduction (the disease can cause abortion in sheep and humans). Endangered Eastern Barred Bandicoots are at threat not only through direct predation by cats but from infection with the disease. It probably predisposes affected bandicoots to predation by cats or dogs and to road trauma.

Research into the reintroduction of rare mammals onto mainland Australia has found that, when foxes are controlled, cat numbers increase, continuing the attack on native species. Similarly, because rabbit is a significant part of feral cat diet in many (especially rural) areas, rabbit control without cat control may lead to increased predation on wildlife. Hence, an integrated pest animal control program is essential.

Cats also have an indirect impact on plant pollination by reducing numbers of native birds.

Although habitat alteration and hunting are also important factors, cats have been responsible for the extinction of over 30 species of birds around the world.

Cats have been the cause of decline and extinction of many bird species on a large number of islands including New Zealand, Macquarie Island, Socorro Island (Mexico), Ascension Island, the Kermadec group, Marion Island and many others. There are also records of mammals and reptiles being similarly affected - for example the endemic rodents of the Galapagos are now only found on islands without cats, and in Western Australia at least two species of now-endangered species of marsupial (Banded Hare-wallaby and Golden Bandicoot) have become extinct on the Monte Bello Islands due to cats.

Pet cats kill an average of 16 mammals, 8 birds and 8 reptiles every year. 900 000 pet cats by 32 wildlife each per year = 29 million wildlife.

Feral cats each need to eat the equivalent of seven native bush rats or ten native birds each week. 200 000 feral cats by 10 wildlife by 52 weeks = 104 million wildlife.

Stray cats in cities kill on average 5 wildlife each week. 300 000 cats by 5 wildlife by 52 weeks = 78 million wildlife.

GRAND TOTAL = 211 million wildlife killed by cats in Victoria each year!

On farms
Toxoplasmosis in sheep, spread by cat faeces, can result in abortions, stillborn lambs, and a reduced lambing percentage. It is the most common cause of infectious abortions in sheep flocks in south-eastern Australia. Cats also carry the stock disease Sarcosporidiosis. Sarcocystis infection can result in carcase condemnation at the abattoir. Cats spread these diseases by contaminating pasture, hay and other animal foods with the parasite via their faeces. They in turn are contaminated by eating rodents, birds and wildlife which contain cysts of the parasite. Farmers who wish to avoid the risk to livestock of toxoplasmosis should not let cats near their pastures.

DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRIES 
August 1999


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## =bECS= (Dec 31, 2008)

redbellybite said:


> well dipsy you obviously are up for a fight on APS .............so as a frequant flyer on this site I am out of this post as it is sure to stir up a hornets nest ..........................................



I agree, the topic starter is obviously wanting a heated debate 
/me sits next to RBB and waits for around page 2 or 3.



bundybear said:


> sorry-dipcdame------you-lost-me-at
> _Wikipedia refers to...................._



Bundy, ive noticed your space bar is broken isnt it  hehe


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## Jewly (Dec 31, 2008)

ssssnakeman said:


> I agree chris, feral or stray,,who cares, they are all good for helping my accuracy with the rifle, and the wheels of my car.


 

It's not only cats who are feral!! :x



ssssnakeman said:


> Oh yes, i am not a cat hater, i just love our native fauna.
> I dont hate any animal.


 
I'd hate to know what you'd do to an animal you did hate if that's how you treat an animal that you love.

Give me a break!!


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## Australis (Dec 31, 2008)

There is no real specific or precise definition for feral cats..
by any government department that ive checked.
They don't revert back to a "wild type" in the same way pigs
do with easy to see morphological differences.
However i think a stray cat is for all intents and purposes
fair to call feral.. 


From: A Dictionary of Zoology | Date: 1999 | Author: MICHAEL ALLABY |Dictionary of Zoology 1999, originally published by Oxford University Press 1999. 
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O8-feral.html



> feral From the Latin ferus, ‘wild’, an adjective applied to a wild or undomesticated organism. In particular, the term is applied to wild strains of an otherwise domesticated species or to an organism that has reverted to a wild condition following escape from captivity, etc. Some authors make these distinctions: wild species, subject to natural selection only; domestic species, subject to selection by humans; and feral species, formerly domestic species which are now, as escapees, subject once again to natural selection.


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## caustichumor (Dec 31, 2008)

I dont think there is much of a divide between Feral vs Stray, It is more of a habitat term, Bush vs Urban. If they are self-sustaining they are problem animals, and claiming they keep other feral animals in check? the occasional other "pest" animal may be predated upon, however the bulk of a felines diet is small reptiles and birds.


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## emmjay23 (Dec 31, 2008)

i used to love cats so eventually i brought one home. he was fine for a while but then started killing everything, even when full. We lived on 5 acres and the stupid cat killed geckos, berdies, snakes :shock:, native mice etc etc.
now i hate cats. if my one cat could wipe out so much when he always had food available then imagine how much of our native wildlife is being butchered everyday.
i know his killing was my fault.. he should have been indoors, ripping up mums couch and scratching up the curtains.. no, i shouldn't of brought him in the first place, i was too young and unaware of the impact my cat would have on the environment especailly as we lived out bush surrounded by wildlife.
wouldn't it be wonderful if cat owners had to have licences just like we do for most snakes? they're not local afterall. I know the next person will probably mention dogs so I may as well add that I'm not against people having licences for them either.. i see the affect local camp dogs have on the environment too

Sorry I believe I went off topic. i know this is a touchy subject but everyone is entitled to their opinion so there's mine


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## slim6y (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> I'd hate to know what you'd do to an animal you did hate if that's how you treat an animal that you love.
> 
> Give me a break!!



Jewly - no way, I agree with Mr Ssssssssnake there... 

I also love and respect all animals... 

No animal deserves to be tortured - I never pull wings off flies, or even use pesticides... But I hunt and actively kill toads - and if it's via the car, then so be it. 

I would kill cats the same way I'd kill pigs... and I like both of them - I think pigs are awesome animals - they're just not suited to our environment - or contrary to that they're OVER suited to our environment.

I find it funny that you'd consider what sssssnakeman does is inhumane or even 'feral'

On a second note - we know we have to control a lot of feral animals - rats, rabbits, goats, pigs, etc etc etc - and we all should try and get behind this somehow.

We know most people here are responsible cat owners - but so many are not. 

The populations out there are too numerous and are in serious need of control. But not just cats - but the feral animals they prey on as well.

I haven't said anything you all don't already know!


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## Australis (Dec 31, 2008)

http://www.kiccc.org.au/adv.php ... these chaps are on the right track.


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## emmjay23 (Dec 31, 2008)

well put silm6y


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## Jewly (Dec 31, 2008)

slim6y said:


> I find it funny that you'd consider what sssssnakeman does is inhumane or even 'feral'.


 
You find it funny that I have a problem with him running over cats with his car?

:?:?

I'm not going to waste anymore of my time defending cats.

No one has the right to kill another person's pet and that's what this whole argument is over not completely feral cats who live solely in the bush and have no owner. I have no problem with anyone humanely shooting them, but we are talking about domesticated cats.


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> No one has the right to kill another person's pet and that's what this whole argument is over not completely feral cats who live solely in the bush and have no owner. I have no problem with anyone humanely shooting them, but we are talking about domesticated cats.


 
I automatically get the right to kill someones pet when they assume that they have the right to let their cat kill native animals. The solution is blindingly obvious - keep cats inside!


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## slim6y (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> You find it funny that I have a problem with him running over cats with his car?
> 
> :?:?
> 
> ...



What would you do if someone kept toads? And there toad was out walking...?

So long it's humane and the cat is a danger to our environment....


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

i'm goin to a new sport in jan, any1 want to come... it's *stray pig* shooting

only good cat is inside the yard.... or a dead 1 outside. feel the same about all feral / stray animals. they hunt and forage to survive... result is wildlife mutilation




*Dead bluey and pics. WARNING Graphic* stray animals are a possibility for these poor things


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## Ramsayi (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> No one has the right to kill another person's pet and that's what this whole argument is over not completely feral cats who live solely in the bush and have no owner. I have no problem with anyone humanely shooting them, but we are talking about domesticated cats.




Sorry but if another persons cat is in my yard or the surrounding bushland then to me it is feral and fair game.Who gave the owners of the cat the right for it to roam wherever it wants to roam and do the things that cats are driven to do?


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## Retic (Dec 31, 2008)

Exactly.
What the cat is referred to is just semantics.


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## Fester (Dec 31, 2008)

Saw a cat this morning on the front lawn with a young honey-eater in it's mouth.To me that is feral, it should not be let loose and I won't comment any further!! :evil:


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> Sorry but if another persons cat is in my yard or the surrounding bushland then to me it is feral and fair game.Who gave the owners of the cat the right for it to roam wherever it wants to roam and do the things that cats are driven to do?


 
with ya on this 1 bud.... but there are feral people out there that need a bullet to


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## Wild_Storm (Dec 31, 2008)

cris said:


> If it doesnt have a collar its feral and its the right thing to get rid of them. When you consider how many animals cats kill the arguement that its wrong to kill them because it causes an animal to die is pretty weak.


 

Well, I used to have cats, and I love them, but my daughter has an allergy to their hair, so we got a dog instead. 

I am VERY pleased I don't live near Cris- I have tried and tried and tried but my dog keeps ditching her collar... Would she be classed her as feral and killed too??

Come one people- where is our consideration and tolerance?? 

I have a friend with two cats- which she watches carefully, and I gave my Javanese kitty to a friend and he kills all the rabbits, rats and mice within cooee of the station home... Yes unfortunately he does get the odd quail, but some people feed them to snakes- should their snakes be killed too? And if a hatchling snake comes through the houseyard? Well he gets it too (before the humans do!!). I have never seen him pull on the big BHP pythons that visit...

Cat, Dog, Rat, Snake, Horse, Cattle, Bird, Guinea Pig, Lizard, Gecko... What is the common factor????????????????

THEY ARE ALL ANIMALS!!! They ALL deserve care and consideration. How can anyone claim to love an animal, but want to kill others?? 

I HATED rats- I have ever since I was a little girl and the one I was trying to rescue out of the Pollard drum bit me... But I have them now for my snakes... and you know WHAT?? I think they are cute, and kinda funny... But they still smell weird!! I don't want to have to be the one to kill the mommies and the daddy later on, but I can't have them forever, I know... But I guess I have a very weird thing called FEELINGS and COMPASSION!!

FLAME ON!!


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## Dipcdame (Dec 31, 2008)

Australis said:


> There is no real specific or precise definition for feral cats..
> by any government department that ive checked.
> They don't revert back to a "wild type" in the same way pigs
> do with easy to see morphological differences.
> ...



you contradict yourself Australis......... you say all cats should be termed feral yet in the piece you cut and pasted, it states feral is a WILD state.............and no domesticated animal can be termed feral.

"‘wild’, an adjective applied to a wild or undomesticated organism. In particular, the term is applied to wild strains of an otherwise domesticated species or to an organism that has reverted to a wild condition following escape from captivity,"


......................and thank you, Wildstorm.... hear hear!!!!!


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## Dodie (Dec 31, 2008)

Yes all animals deserve care and consideration, native animals are important to our ecology and if another animal poses a risk to this, then it needs to be eradicated.

Wildstorm, you're point about snakes killing quails is just idiotic.


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## nightowl (Dec 31, 2008)

Feral kids are the ones that need culling ..... and there is plenty of 'em out there.

This thread is feral ..... my lunch today was feral ...... This chick that came into the shop yesterday to buy some crickets was feral .... yeah, the term feral does get used a bit too much...


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

I am VERY pleased I don't live near Cris- I have tried and tried and tried but my dog keeps ditching her collar... Would she be classed her as feral and killed too??

Come one people- where is our consideration and tolerance?? 

I have a friend with two cats- which she watches carefully, and I gave my Javanese kitty to a friend and he kills all the rabbits, rats and mice within cooee of the station home... Yes unfortunately he does get the odd quail, but some people feed them to snakes- should their snakes be killed too? And if a hatchling snake comes through the houseyard? Well he gets it too (before the humans do!!). I have never seen him pull on the big BHP pythons that visit...

Cat, Dog, Rat, Snake, Horse, Cattle, Bird, Guinea Pig, Lizard, Gecko... What is the common factor????????????????

THEY ARE ALL ANIMALS!!! They ALL deserve care and consideration. How can anyone claim to love an animal, but want to kill others?? 

I HATED rats- I have ever since I was a little girl and the one I was trying to rescue out of the Pollard drum bit me... But I have them now for my snakes... 

i own rats. i owned them before snakes and swore i'd never breed them for snake food. well, then i got bit by a juvi coastal python i saved from the neighbours shovel, yes i kept him for a month and fell in love with snakes then got my permits to do the right thing and released him away from the city, he's now a regular visitor around my beach house up north and is still cute, (if it is him) looks like his markings at least... rats are cute and smell less than mice by far. i know people that have cats and am living with some right now. i have considerable tolerance for all animals exempt those that have strayed, gone feral... yes some can't help how they got feral but thats human fault, not thiers.... it is however the animals problem when it's not native to the environment and posses pressure on native animals and vegitation. 
i understand the whole your ment to be an animal lover consept your saying... but yes, i am an animal lover, but more so for the native wildlife. if my dogs were to attack and kill an animal without my say, they would be in ****. if they strayed and i found em 5 months later in the bush, well sorry they're then feral. and i would expect them to be shot, not that i would do it, but i would expect it for sure. they cause to much pressure on our delicate eco system in australia, but we are the worst for that. i know i was till 1 day i woke up. and i thank that python for that!!!


oh and the we feed quaills to snakes.... last i checked i feed captive bred 1's


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## ihaveherps (Dec 31, 2008)

I know this may be a hard pill for the bleeding hearts to swallow, but a goat, pigs, rabbits, camels, horses and such are all considered feral once they break captivity and start to fend for themselves long term. Why is that cats owners think they are any different to any other pet or livestock owner, and that their animals are allowed to roam without boundaries, to hunt and defecate wherever they please? Why are there households and childcare centres out there who have sand-pits with cat presents left in them, and they dont own cats themselves? Why do other responsible pet owners come home to find their rabbits, guinea pigs, and in my case once my bluetongues killed, but not eaten, sometimes just their brains eaten.... find bird carcasses and feathers strewn all over their yards, though they never own a cat? The answer is, because the majority of cat purchasers arent cat owners.... they just bought an animal smart enouh to remember where an easy feed is, that they have little to no responsibility for otherwise they wouldnt let them fornicate, defecate and annihilate wherever they please.... 

I have been doing my bit to sort cats out for a very long time now, cats with collars used to be dropped at the pound.... how times have changed.


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## Mudimans (Dec 31, 2008)

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a cat person, but would never hurt one, or any animal for that matter (I can't even fun over toads in my car!). But I just don't understand how people can own a pet and knowingly let it run around outside their yard. Whether it be for the local wildlife or the sake of the cat-a pet should be kept in doors or in their own yard! 
On topic, I wouldn't consider these cats to be feral, just a nuisance. I do feel sorry for the cats that are constantly out roaming the streets though-its not their fault, they just have very irresponsible owners, and that's what gives cats such a bad reputation!!


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

ihaveherps said:


> I know this may be a hard pill for the bleeding hearts to swallow, but a goat, pigs, rabbits, camels, horses and such are all considered feral once they break captivity and start to fend for themselves long term. Why is that cats owners think they are any different to any other pet or livestock owner, and that their animals are allowed to roam without boundaries, to hunt and defecate wherever they please? Why are there households and childcare centres out there who have sand-pits with cat presents left in them, and they dont own cats themselves? Why do other responsible pet owners come home to find their rabbits, guinea pigs, and in my case once my bluetongues killed, but not eaten, sometimes just their brains eaten.... find bird carcasses and feathers strewn all over their yards, though they never own a cat? The answer is, because the majority of cat purchasers arent cat owners.... they just bought an animal smart enouh to remember where an easy feed is, that they have little to no responsibility for otherwise they wouldnt let them fornicate, defecate and annihilate wherever they please....
> 
> I have been doing my bit to sort cats out for a very long time now, cats with collars used to be dropped at the pound.... how times have changed.


 
to true and excellent piont here. do we buy vens to let them roam the street and stike fear into those that don't like em'. no we keep them contained and under eagle eye's when they're out. that's because a majority of snake owners are responsible pet keepers. besides, reptiles are better pets anyway. lol i'm watching a cat now at our door wanting the finches just outside so bad.... proves they are instinctual killers to anything that moves


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## Recharge (Dec 31, 2008)

meh, either way, any stray cat that enters my yard, and gets caught, goes into one of my snakes.
you can't keep your cat contained, tough luck.


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## Ninjaette (Dec 31, 2008)

Feral is a term used to describe some of the bi-peds who wonder around the streets where I live


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

Recharge said:


> meh, either way, any stray cat that enters my yard, and gets caught, goes into one of my snakes.
> you can't keep your cat contained, tough luck.


 

oh good 1 lol, hahaha
score 1 oz wildlife


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## TURBO8 (Dec 31, 2008)

cris said:


> If it doesnt have a collar its feral and its the right thing to get rid of them. When you consider how many animals cats kill the arguement that its wrong to kill them because it causes an animal to die is pretty weak.


 
Quite wrong , generally if it isnt micro chipped or have the the old style tat in the ear it *MAY *be feral , or the owner has not bothered to get it done, but in no way am taking the side of cat lovers i am a dog man through and through .


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## boxhead (Dec 31, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> I automatically get the right to kill someones pet when they assume that they have the right to let their cat kill native animals. The solution is blindingly obvious - keep cats inside!


 could not agree more . cat inside is a pet . cat outside is feral .


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## shlanger (Dec 31, 2008)

In my book, a cat is feral once it steps off the veranda!


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## cracksinthepitch (Dec 31, 2008)

IMO cats are registered to the local council and an address is provided for their residence. If a cat is found off its residence it should be deemed feral , caught and impounded as per local Govt rules. Pet shops should not be able to sell willy nilly cats to any body. Far too many cats in Aust , i myself have one and she is an inside cat.She goes outside for a total of 2 hours a day and is supervised( metal fences help) 

Our Number 1 priority should always be Indiginous native animals, and if another animal is negatively affecting these then something needs to be done about it. Humanely of course.


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## shlanger (Dec 31, 2008)

Oh yeah, I nearly forgot! Most of my larger pythons are 'pusscavorious' as well!


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## Wild_Storm (Dec 31, 2008)

And just another point... In this age of technology, there are 'bird collars' that stop or reduce the number of birds a cat can catch. Another friend of mine has one for her cat, coz the 10 bells she put on the collar didn't stop it catching birds or lizards. She said it still catchs the odd bird until she put bells on the collar/flap too!


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## shlanger (Dec 31, 2008)

A bell/s on a cats collar will not stop it catching birds or other wildlife! But I know something that will!............. a brick!


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## Wild_Storm (Dec 31, 2008)

And I am a PROUD supporter of 1080 use in the outback- it kills as many REAL feral cats as it does Dingoes, and Pigs. To be very honest- I know for a fact that some of our so called 'feral' cats when I was a young girl on a cattle station were really the dumped kittens from people in the area... So this will upset 'the bleeding hearts', but I totally support 1080 for true feral cats that are in the outback, not the dumped and neglected animals around towns.


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

I have 3 cats none are feral in fact they all sleep next to the bed at night with me.

My cats have never been allowed out 1 time in there life. The only time they have been out of the house is in a carry cage to the vet for there check up.

I can proudly say my cats have killed no native wildlife.

I think if all people did this then the issue would be resolved. 

I believe no cats should be allowed outside at any time.

If the governments get of there *** and make it law that no cats are allowed outside then i believe that will go a long way to help fixing the problem.

Dogs on the other hand even if confined in a backyard can kill native wildlife so i would actually submit that if a cat is housebound it is less likely to kill native wildlife than a dog backyard bound.

I believe "feral cat" refers to a cat which is not used to humans and is not owned and is at large. 

I support the shooting of all wild cats.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 31, 2008)

Off track but...


> And I am a PROUD supporter of 1080 use in the outback- it kills as many REAL feral cats as it does Dingoes, and Pigs.


Dingos are a native dog , 
when an animal has been in a country for 20,000 years give or take,it is a part of its environment.
Its all about eduation.


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## Jewly (Dec 31, 2008)

slim6y said:


> What would you do if someone kept toads? And there toad was out walking...?
> 
> So long it's humane and the cat is a danger to our environment....


 
How is running over a cat with a car humane? The cat most likely won't die straight away and it will be in agony.

You people have a funny idea on what's cruel and what's not.

I wouldn't even run over a toad with my car!


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## Jewly (Dec 31, 2008)

All you BLOKES who so proudly sprout off that you kill cats because they are endangering the native wildlife need to grow a set and admit that you just hate cats. If it was the environment you were so worried about, you'd be out there making a real difference instead of terrorising poor cats for the fun of it.

Makes you a real man (not)!!!


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## tooninoz (Dec 31, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> My cats have never been allowed out 1 time in there life.



Your house must be a treat for the olfactory senses.... :shock:


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

cris said:


> If it doesnt have a collar its feral and its the right thing to get rid of them. When you consider how many animals cats kill the arguement that its wrong to kill them because it causes an animal to die is pretty weak.


 

Dont agree with that, my cats dont wear collars however they are all microchipped.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> All you BLOKES who so proudly sprout off that you kill cats because they are endangering the native wildlife need to grow a set and admit that you just hate cats. If it was the environment you were so worried about, you'd be out there making a real difference instead of terrorising poor cats for the fun of it.
> 
> Makes you a real man (not)!!!


 
 your funny jewly


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## Ramsayi (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> All you BLOKES who so proudly sprout off that you kill cats because they are endangering the native wildlife need to grow a set and admit that you just hate cats. If it was the environment you were so worried about, you'd be out there making a real difference instead of terrorising poor cats for the fun of it.
> 
> Makes you a real man (not)!!!



I have a decent set thank you very much.I also happen to hate cats specifically because they kill for fun.I have spent a lot of time,effort and money encouraging native wildlife to set up residence in and around our backyard and I'll be stuffed I will allow any roaming cat to come in and do the things that come naturally to them.


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

tooninoz said:


> Your house must be a treat for the olfactory senses.... :shock:


 

No if you vaccume every day and clean the litter tray 3 times a day there is no odour.

I guess though people are to lazy to do this thats why they let them out.


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## cracksinthepitch (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> All you BLOKES who so proudly sprout off that you kill cats because they are endangering the native wildlife need to grow a set and admit that you just hate cats. If it was the environment you were so worried about, you'd be out there making a real difference instead of terrorising poor cats for the fun of it.
> 
> Makes you a real man (not)!!!


 
Just read this post as a one post only, Snakeman is ,does and always will be out their for the enviroment. He rescues ,rehabilitates and releases well again native animals of all genera not just snakes.
Yes opinions are greatly divided and greatly emotional on both sides . But lets just relax and not get sucked in


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> All you BLOKES who so proudly sprout off that you kill cats because they are endangering the native wildlife need to grow a set and admit that you just hate cats. If it was the environment you were so worried about, you'd be out there making a real difference instead of terrorising poor cats for the fun of it.
> 
> Makes you a real man (not)!!!




I agree with jewly.

Other animals are just as capable of killing natives, they just arn't as precise.
I like most animals, besides maybe mosquitos, they just **** me.
It's human beings who are at fault for introducing animals like cats and foxes, but it doesn't mean the animal it's self is BAD OR EVIL, they are just fit for survival.

and to whoever is admitting they kill cats to 'better' our environment, like jewly said grow some man. I for one am more concerned about the fact that our forests/bush land is being cut down, all well and good saying cats kill natives, might help if they have somewhere to live though.


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> I have a decent set thank you very much.I also happen to hate cats specifically because they kill for fun.I have spent a lot of time,effort and money encouraging native wildlife to set up residence in and around our backyard and I'll be stuffed I will allow any roaming cat to come in and do the things that come naturally to them.




They kill for fun? lololololol.

MOST animals don't souly kill for food. You telling me dogs don't toy with animals like cats do?


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I have 3 cats none are feral in fact they all sleep next to the bed at night with me.
> 
> My cats have never been allowed out 1 time in there life. The only time they have been out of the house is in a carry cage to the vet for there check up.
> 
> ...


 
this makes you a responsible cat owner...
my dogs are back yard dogs and off leash bush dogs, 1 having lived his life on a property.
i take them on herp trips with me and help with making it easier to grab a monitor for pics. they never bite the animals i've chased. they've never attacked a snake when looking through the scrub, even the 1's they find first. and they walk behind me. a dog is as good as it is trained. yet i can say they will kill on my comand, but never without. i will shoot mungrel pidgeons with a slingshot in my backyard and they finish the job if i unfortunately didn't make a kill hit. but they learn quick as to what they can and can't kill. they only get to hunt feral mice and rats. but they will corner it and make a @%$# load of noise so i always see if it's native first.. i do however hate seeing dogs outside the fence without the owner present.
again, the owners that want animals in thier yard should take the responsibility of making sure thier boundary is secure so nothing can push it open, jump over or dig under and even squeeze through the fence. cos cts can be locked inside all day and nite with no effect. dogs need a yard and room. it is always the owners fault first if the animal gets out, the animals fault second


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## cracksinthepitch (Dec 31, 2008)

Watched a doco yesterday about killer whales and what they did to a southern right whale calf just for fun, they only ate his bottom jaw and then they left.Very cruel


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

Cats should'nt be allowed to roam the streets, nor should any domesticated animal. 
Cats are just harder to enclose, so to all those who have cats get them a cat run or something if you really want their company so that they ARN'T killing natives.

No point arguing this, nobody will agree to disagree.


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

cracksinthepitch said:


> Watched a doco yesterday about killer whales and what they did to a southern right whale calf just for fun, they only ate his bottom jaw and then they left.Very cruel



Exactly.

I am actually finding it hard to think of animals that don't toy with their prey other than snakes?
That was a really stupid reason for hating on cats Ramsayi


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

Jewly said:


> All you BLOKES who so proudly sprout off that you kill cats because they are endangering the native wildlife need to grow a set and admit that you just hate cats. If it was the environment you were so worried about, you'd be out there making a real difference instead of terrorising poor cats for the fun of it.
> 
> Makes you a real man (not)!!!


 oh i do my part for it thanks, and i only hate cats *outside thier respectful yard....* not thier extended yard.... the 1 beyond the owners fence. again if i could pop the ignorant owners i would. and to be honest. i dont know many ppl driving the streets that shoot cats with guns... only hear of it sometimes out bush were they are truly feral not stray... 

just cos some1 says that they control cats by culling doesn't mean they hate them. they just hate them out of thier yard....

i so want a scrubbie, it's funny as hell when a stupid stray leaves it's yard in to mine and i sik the dogs on it, funny tho, i need to tell em to go it...


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## Kurto (Dec 31, 2008)

Is it me or is this whole APS cat thing (not only this thread) gone past's it used by date? 

Just a thought...


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> Cats should'nt be allowed to roam the streets, nor should any domesticated animal.
> Cats are just harder to enclose, so to all those who have cats get them a cat run or something if you really want their company so that they ARN'T killing natives.
> 
> No point arguing this, nobody will agree to disagree.


 

I 100% DISAGREE 

Cats are easier to enclose than dogs as cats are happy to use litter trays inside.

There is no excuse for anyone who lets there cat out accept ignorane, lack of education and stupidity.


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

shnakeyguy said:


> oh i do my part for it thanks, and i only hate cats *outside thier respectful yard....* not thier extended yard.... the 1 beyond the owners fence. again if i could pop the ignorant owners i would. and to be honest. i dont know many ppl driving the streets that shoot cats with guns... only hear of it sometimes out bush were they are truly feral not stray...
> 
> just cos some1 says that they control cats by culling doesn't mean they hate them. they just hate them out of thier yard....
> 
> i so want a scrubbie, it's funny as hell when a stupid stray leaves it's yard in to mine and i sik the dogs on it, funny tho, i need to tell em to go it...


 

This kind of mentality only gives people who do the wrong thing with there cats the upper hand. 

Your clearly being cruel.


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

cracksinthepitch said:


> Watched a doco yesterday about killer whales and what they did to a southern right whale calf just for fun, they only ate his bottom jaw and then they left.Very cruel


 

yeah lets stop the arguing, every1 has an opinion tho.... but these killer whales.... thats it they must be feral... lets kill em!!!!!! lol


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## boxhead (Dec 31, 2008)

the thing is cats KILL because they can . they bring the prey to their owner looking for praise . yes it is up to the owner to keep them inside .trouble is MOST don't


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> This kind of mentality only gives people who do the wrong thing with there cats the upper hand.
> 
> Your clearly being cruel.


 
it was a joke in referance to the person that said they feed cats to snakes.... lol... lighten up. i get ur point tho


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## BlindSnake (Dec 31, 2008)

We have a problem with a local cat ATM. We have sugar gliders out side, and a neighbour lets their cat out 24/7. Most nights it comes around and tries to kill my gliders.
Our problem is, I know If I go around and tell this person whats going on and they should keep there cat inside, Thats not going to happen. So the next step is to trap it and take it to the pound. Now if the cat has a micro chip, they will get a call that there cat has been cought and the need to pick it up. My third option is for the cat to just dissappear.
Now if I do the first and second options, the owner will put two and two together and figure out that it was me, and if option three should happen I'll get the finger pointed at me...
So my question is to the pussy lovers. 
What would you do?


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I 100% DISAGREE
> 
> Cats are easier to enclose than dogs as cats are happy to use litter trays inside.
> 
> There is no excuse for anyone who lets there cat out accept ignorane, lack of education and stupidity.



A cat is going to jump a fence alot easier than most dogs. They climb, duh.
I meant it's easier to enclose a dog in a yard, than it is a cat which based on the evidence is quite true.

But i'm not arguing further.


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## Kersten (Dec 31, 2008)

Dontcha just LOVE holidays?

Not meant to start a fight....pmfsl.


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

Go over there and tell them you dont want there cat in your backyard. 

And that it is trying to attack your sugar gliders.

If they say **** off to you then trap it and take it to the local pound.


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

BlindSnake said:


> We have a problem with a local cat ATM. We have sugar gliders out side, and a neighbour lets their cat out 24/7. Most nights it comes around and tries to kill my gliders.
> Our problem is, I know If I go around and tell this person whats going on and they should keep there cat inside, Thats not going to happen. So the next step is to trap it and take it to the pound. Now if the cat has a micro chip, they will get a call that there cat has been cought and the need to pick it up. My third option is for the cat to just dissappear.
> Now if I do the first and second options, the owner will put two and two together and figure out that it was me, and if option three should happen I'll get the finger pointed at me...
> So my question is to the pussy lovers.
> What would you do?




Most pounds have a fee for picking up an animal due to it's being found roaming.
I would take it to the pound. I did this with a beagle that was let to roam the streets after dark and he was entire, they had to pay five hundred dollars to get him back, they sure hate me but atleast they don't let him out anymore.


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> A cat is going to jump a fence alot easier than most dogs. They climb, duh.
> I meant it's easier to enclose a dog in a yard, than it is a cat which based on the evidence is quite true.
> 
> But i'm not arguing further.


 

There is no need to enclose it if its house bound.

So no need to worry about the fence jumping or whatever else.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 31, 2008)

To blindsnake

I would tell the owner that the cat trap will be always set and any cat caught in it will go to the pound, if you have a cat curfew, then he will get tired of paying the fines.
Dont be scared of educating the moron.


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> There is no need to enclose it if its house bound.
> 
> So no need to worry about the fence jumping or whatever else.



Alot of people don't want to confine their cats to a house, i am one of them, that's why i suggested a cat run, or take it for walks. 

Relax sweet cheeks, i'm on your side.


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## cracksinthepitch (Dec 31, 2008)

Blindsnake, what is your current relationship like with this neighbour, are you scared of confrontation with them,, Could you warn them that you are getting a trap and be upfront about it, . Its a tough one cause you have to live there but my sugar gliders would be far more important to me than a peckerhead neighbour.


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

BlindSnake said:


> We have a problem with a local cat ATM. We have sugar gliders out side, and a neighbour lets their cat out 24/7. Most nights it comes around and tries to kill my gliders.
> Our problem is, I know If I go around and tell this person whats going on and they should keep there cat inside, Thats not going to happen. So the next step is to trap it and take it to the pound. Now if the cat has a micro chip, they will get a call that there cat has been cought and the need to pick it up. My third option is for the cat to just dissappear.
> Now if I do the first and second options, the owner will put two and two together and figure out that it was me, and if option three should happen I'll get the finger pointed at me...
> So my question is to the pussy lovers.
> What would you do?


 
'edited...rude'Get yourself a good tempered dog. they should leave your animals alone and will keep the cat out if u teach it just to chase, yes that can be done. if dogs not for u, then as cracksinthepitch said


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

shnakeyguy said:


> Get yourself a good tempered dog. they should leave your animals alone and will keep the cat out if u teach it just to chase, yes that can be done. if dogs not for u, then as cracksinthepitch said




Oh god. Don't tell me your dogs wear studded collars.


*rolls eyes*


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## Fester (Dec 31, 2008)

BlindSnake said:


> We have a problem with a local cat ATM. We have sugar gliders out side, and a neighbour lets their cat out 24/7. Most nights it comes around and tries to kill my gliders.


 
I had a big cat problem when I used to keep a lot of native birds. An electric fence on top of the aviary did the trick, not to kill them but there sure was a lot of noise when they hit it! My neighbour has several aviaries and was losing a lot of birds to being frightened by cats. I told him about the electric fence and now he uses it and now not a problem!


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## BlindSnake (Dec 31, 2008)

I know talking to this person is a waste of time.Im not sure of what is more feral, her or the cat. we dont really get on. The gliders that its hasseling are out the front under the verandah, and when I see the cat on the night cam. I get the dog to chase it. (he loves it) 

If I speak to her about it and she does nothing (as I know will be the case) then I lose all options with her knowing my intentions, so when I get annoyed enough and dispose of the cat. I'll have her at the door blaiming me for her cat dissapearing.


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## gravitation (Dec 31, 2008)

BlindSnake said:


> I know talking to this person is a waste of time.Im not sure of what is more feral, her or the cat. we dont really get on. The gliders that its hasseling are out the front under the verandah, and when I see the cat on the night cam. I get the dog to chase it. (he loves it)
> 
> If I speak to her about it and she does nothing (as I know will be the case) then I lose all options with her knowing my intentions, so when I get annoyed enough and dispose of the cat. I'll have her at the door blaiming me for her cat dissapearing.



I would'nt get my dog to chase it, i just think that's cruel to the cat.
Just confront her, and then take it to the pound.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 31, 2008)

To blindsnake
Just tell her to keep the cat under control or you will nail it to her front door,
works for me.
Someone said "grow a set" earlier in this thread. This could apply to you.
No offence meant though.


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> Oh god. Don't tell me your dogs wear studded collars.
> 
> 
> *rolls eyes*


 
lol hell no. they don't were any as they kept losing them in the bush or the sea water kept destroying them over time. besides they don't need themthey stay in the yard and it's called scruffing them by the loose skin if they disobey. and put them on the chain for half an hour...

besides i don't own them now. the ex wanted to keep them so she kept them and i kept the reptiles


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

captainpantspie said:


> I would'nt get my dog to chase it, i just think that's cruel to the cat.
> Just confront her, and then take it to the pound.


 
good point, but the cat seems like a gluten for punishment if it keeps goin back.... and the electric fence is an excellent method to that works for many animals, although it can be pricey for a good 1


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## Wild_Storm (Dec 31, 2008)

ssssnakeman said:


> Off track but...
> 
> Dingos are a native dog ,
> when an animal has been in a country for 20,000 years give or take,it is a part of its environment.
> Its all about eduation.


 
YEAH???? Well I KNOW what DINGOES look like... But when mongrels drop their 'no longer wanted' dogs off and they HYBRIDISE with the Dingoes they ARE NOT Dingoes... They are feral dogs!! So I still support 1080!!!


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## ReptilianGuy (Dec 31, 2008)

ssssnakeman said:


> Off track but...
> 
> Dingos are a native dog ,
> when an animal has been in a country for 20,000 years give or take,it is a part of its environment.
> Its all about eduation.


 
think you will find that they were imported bout 8000- 10000 yrs ago, (don't quote me) i thought it was over 20000 to until i heard different yesterday, havent looked into it yet tho...

i'd love to own a pure bred tho, they are great animals, and don't smell like wet dog unless they're hybrid


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## horsesrule (Dec 31, 2008)

BlindSnake said:


> I know talking to this person is a waste of time.Im not sure of what is more feral, her or the cat. we dont really get on. The gliders that its hasseling are out the front under the verandah, and when I see the cat on the night cam. I get the dog to chase it. (he loves it)
> 
> If I speak to her about it and she does nothing (as I know will be the case) then I lose all options with her knowing my intentions, so when I get annoyed enough and dispose of the cat. I'll have her at the door blaiming me for her cat dissapearing.


 
Thats why you should do it legally by trapping it and taking it to the pound or local shelter.

If you dont follow the law she may cause you problems even more so than if you do.

I would not spend my money putting electric fences up if i was you, the neighbour is the one who is breaking the law.

If this was me i would get my partner to go over and sort it out he wont take there ****.


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## edgewing (Dec 31, 2008)

Wild_Storm said:


> YEAH???? Well I KNOW what DINGOES look like... But when mongrels drop their 'no longer wanted' dogs off and they HYBRIDISE with the Dingoes they ARE NOT Dingoes... They are feral dogs!! So I still support 1080!!!



1080 is indiscriminate and a very painful and inhumane death. I have seen a lot of this in NZ prior to arriving over here. This would kill possums etc. depending on how it is baited. In NZ it used to be put into carrots and just about anything would eat them.

Caused a lot of nasty deaths.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Dec 31, 2008)

To wild storm, 
when you said *dingo* i thought you *meant* dingo, not wild feral dog.
Silly me
P.S, we use the 1080 as well as firearms for the foxes as well so i wont argue the merits of this poison with you.
Apart from the painful and prolonged death, it is very effective.


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## vrhq08 (Dec 31, 2008)

i own 3 cats 2 of them ferrals i picked up on the streets luckily before some moron decided to kill them (all of which live stay indoors). i dont see why people hate them so much. humans are doing more damage to the environment then cats, yeah jump down my throat say whatever you wish to me doesnt phase me. personally i find it amusing how you go on about how your doing such a major service when the thing is you probably eat meat yourself. does that mean vegans have a right to kill you because in their eyes they see you as a feral human? of corse not. Morons like you that hold your life over every one elses stop trying to play god, your no better then the cat.


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## FAY (Dec 31, 2008)

Enough said.....goes on and on and never achieves anything......


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