# AMAZING Beardies? or crazy inbred freaks??



## sweetangel (Jan 18, 2011)

Hey guys,

so was in the newsagents today and came across an american reptile magazine.
first thing i notice was the beardie on the from cover, a pied beardie!!!

wow so i look in the magazine to check it out and then went to the website that was in the magazine of the breeders.

Now these are some absolutely amazing looking animals, but all i can think about is how freakin inbred are these animals???

and pose a question to you guys, do u think it is right to interbreed these lizards so severely?

now i know that that is how recessive genes are brought out, but seriously these things would have to be interbred a thousand times right?

anyway, food for though and pretty pictures for the eyes 

website where i got the photos Bearded Dragons For Sale - BLOODBANKDRAGONS.COM

now photos
pied beardie






purple translucent





translucent silkback





one thats for sale at the moment





difference between normal and translucent beardie





green and purple




















white with no yellow on ears?










circular scales





scaless beardie (silkback)





cheers
amy


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## Jeannine (Jan 18, 2011)

*nice to look at but i dont like the ones with scales*


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## Sel (Jan 18, 2011)

Interesting...

That green and purple one is beautiful


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jan 18, 2011)

there is alrady a thred about this, it was started a few weeks ago 
just search "piebald beardies"


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## Chicken (Jan 18, 2011)

bloody amazing!


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## sweetangel (Jan 18, 2011)

ah yeah i thought there might be


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## chewbacca (Jan 18, 2011)

just wow


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## Smithers (Jan 18, 2011)

Amazing,..why are we so far behind the rest of the world in morphs of our animals???


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## junglecarpet (Jan 18, 2011)

They are amazing but not sure if I approve of the amount of inbreeding they would need to get to this level


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## Scleropages (Jan 18, 2011)

Light years ahead.


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## junglepython2 (Jan 18, 2011)

You don't need to inbreed a thousand times at all. You just need to be lucky enough to have the mutation pop up in your breeding program and then refine it if need be. Inbreeding doesn't create the original mutation.


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## BenReyn (Jan 18, 2011)

Oh wow, some of these are absolutely gorgeous!!


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## Grunter023 (Jan 18, 2011)

Some of these beardies are amazing. I would love to live in the USA to have some of their animals. Yes we have beautiful reptiles here - but they get ours and theirs!


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## bluetongue (Jan 18, 2011)

have we even got super high reds yellows and oranges yet or are we still trying to perfect that haha when their moving onto greens , purples and most likely blues!


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## fabregasreptiles (Jan 18, 2011)

we've got some really intense colours and hypomelanistic beardies so, in time, we'll get close to them in the us


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## trogdor1988 (Jan 19, 2011)

I agree, the colours on some of the ones under the green and purple section are nice, but honestly i just think its disgusting that people cant be happy with the beauty of the animals as nature intended them too be. I just think its plain wrong too do whatever they do to these animals.. I mean if beardies were meant too be transluscent or without scales they would be that way naturally, yanks and there designer pets.. ergh.


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## FusionMorelia (Jan 19, 2011)

Smithers said:


> Amazing,..why are we so far behind the rest of the world in morphs of our animals???


because Internet heros and people with time to complain to anyone who will listen constantly bag and hate on anything out of their reach would be my opinion on why were so far behine ,

freakin nice beardies, wouldnt mind a pure white one myself


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## bump73 (Jan 19, 2011)

sweetangel said:


> Now these are some absolutely amazing looking animals, but all i can think about is how freakin inbred are these animals???
> 
> and pose a question to you guys, do u think it is right to interbreed these lizards so severely?


 
Do you think they are any more inbred than any other morphs available in the reptile market like albinos that have been developed from a single specimen??

Ben


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## Braidotti (Jan 19, 2011)

The tiger stripe one is awesome.


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## Morbid (Jan 19, 2011)

Thoes are amazing! The pied one is so cool. I love the scaless, anyway they all look healthy! As long as the inbreeding isn't causing health problems... GO FOR IT! Being kept in capativity it is going it happen eventually anyway, why not bring it out now.


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## gillsy (Jan 19, 2011)

trogdor1988 said:


> I agree, the colours on some of the ones under the green and purple section are nice, but honestly i just think its disgusting that people cant be happy with the beauty of the animals as nature intended them too be. I just think its plain wrong too do whatever they do to these animals.. I mean if beardies were meant too be transluscent or without scales they would be that way naturally, yanks and there designer pets.. ergh.


 
Yet you'll happily keep a breed of dog, in which originally the same was done.

To me pythons and beardies are plain and boring, yet people keep them.


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## Jay84 (Jan 19, 2011)

trogdor1988 said:


> I agree, the colours on some of the ones under the green and purple section are nice, but honestly i just think its disgusting that people cant be happy with the beauty of the animals as nature intended them too be. I just think its plain wrong too do whatever they do to these animals.. I mean if beardies were meant too be transluscent or without scales they would be that way naturally, yanks and there designer pets.. ergh.


 Can you please list your pets that you have for me please?

I would be interested to see which ones have been selectively bred!


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## hornet (Jan 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Can you please list your pets that you have for me please?
> 
> I would be interested to see which ones have been selectively bred!


 
he has scorpions, spiders, tesselated gex, robust velvet gex, eastern stone gex (i think?), woma, md and stimmie, i dont believe he has cats or dogs. Nothing he has looks much different to what they do in the wild


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## Jay84 (Jan 19, 2011)

hornet said:


> he has scorpions, spiders, tesselated gex, robust velvet gex, eastern stone gex (i think?), woma, md and stimmie, i dont believe he has cats or dogs. Nothing he has looks much different to what they do in the wild


 
Fair enough. I wonder though if the breeders of his retiles selectively bred for nicer colours and patterning?

Why is it so wrong to breed from an animal that shows a different colour or scalation to produce more of them?


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## gillsy (Jan 19, 2011)

hornet said:


> he has scorpions, spiders, tesselated gex, robust velvet gex, eastern stone gex (i think?), woma, md and stimmie, i dont believe he has cats or dogs. Nothing he has looks much different to what they do in the wild


 
Yet I bet the Woma's, MD's and Stimmi's have been selectively bred to enhance patterning, colour, temprement. The mice he feeds the snakes, have been selectively bred for large litters. 

What Jay and I are saying is you cannot simply put a blanket statement out like that, I don't know about the arachnids and not the geckos, but snakes are selectively bred all the time. 

Something along the lines of I don't like unnatural morphs, which I agree I hate the RPM's, and Jags. If I were to keep pythons it would be a natural looking carpet over a morph anyday.


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## hornet (Jan 19, 2011)

i'd say they would have but they still look very much natural unlike those beardies. I will add though that i cant understand why he wouldnt like them, some may look a little wierd but most are stunning animals, those colors are amazing


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## scorps (Jan 19, 2011)

The thing is, Jags popped up over night and so will these guys, thats if there not already here...


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## Jay84 (Jan 19, 2011)

scorps said:


> The thing is, Jags popped up over night and so will these guys, thats if there not already here...


 
Is there as much money to be made in beardies though?


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## waruikazi (Jan 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Fair enough. I wonder though if the breeders of his retiles selectively bred for nicer colours and patterning?
> 
> Why is it so wrong to breed from an animal that shows a different colour or scalation to produce more of them?


 
Morphs and selective breeding really can't be compared in most cases. Even then diferent cases of morphing/selection can't be compared. 

For a morph example, I don't think albino darwins and jags should be compared. The albino gene appears to throw healthy animals that are no different to the normal type except for the obvious. Whereas Jags do not always throw healthy animals. I think one of these cases is ethical and one is not.

Selective breeding you can look at the same way, some examples are ethical some i don't think are. I can't think of reptile examples so I'll go for dogs. If you look at an Alaskin malamute are (as far as i know) strong and healthy animals but the selective breeding that has gone into making English bulldogs has created an animal that is not healthy.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with owning or selectively breeding animals for traits that i find appealing. But i would have a problem with owning or breeding an animal that has a high chance of throwing unhealthy or weak animals.


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## jamesn48 (Jan 19, 2011)

I like some of those colour mutations, but i don't like the unnatural looking morphs, give me a normal over one anyday.also any morph which has a chance of causing problems with the animals souldn't be bred.


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## fabregasreptiles (Jan 19, 2011)

the more u look at them, the more u get jealous so imo, its best to just not look at them and instead focus on the morphs or colours we have now and build on them. hopefully the hypo beardies turn out to be something new


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## dihsmaj (Jan 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Is there as much money to be made in beardies though?


 
They're known as beginner reptiles.
They're known to have a good temperament.
People like fancy colours.
I think that answers your question.


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## Crystal..Discus (Jan 19, 2011)

The more I look at them the more disgusted I am. I don't see them as beautiful or pretty... they just look like designer animals, much like you'd find in pet shop windows (labradoodles etc) and for me it just doesn't "click." 

they look healthy, but I'd never buy one.


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## Jay84 (Jan 19, 2011)

Plimpy said:


> They're known as beginner reptiles.
> They're known to have a good temperament.
> People like fancy colours.
> I think that answers your question.


 
I'm not sure they would make as much animals as snakes though.

They wouldnt hold their value, think of how many clutches a beardy will produce in a season. They are so prolific it would not be long till there are many of the morph being produced.

Think of how quickly some snakes have droped in value and they are no where near in the numbers a beardy would be.


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## Red-Ink (Jan 19, 2011)

I frequent the US BD forums a lot and being a BD owner I have always been a bit jealous of the colourful BDs they have there, the trans and silk however are not my cup of tea. Love the colours but I also like a BDs spikes it's what makes a BD IMO.


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## REPTILIAN-KMAN (Jan 19, 2011)

i love the Pied BD, the yanks have done it again !!!

they look freaky


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## Braidotti (Jan 19, 2011)

I wonder how long it will take for us to catch up


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## Defective (Jan 19, 2011)

ok so all of the ones with scales are amazing with the exception of the translucent silkbacks.


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## hurcorh (Jan 19, 2011)

the translucent green and purple one i saw on a site in america for sale priced at $2000


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## Dannyboi (Jan 19, 2011)

Mutations that reduce the risk of an animal surviving in the wild get wiped out as they don't survive and therefore produce no offspring. In captivity though they survive because they have food brought to them and a safe housing environment. How would a scaleless fare in the cold/hot? wouldn't their requirements be different? And with dogs pure bred dogs which were bred for their characteristics have loads of problems e.g. Hip displacier, respiratory and nostril issues and the bull dog cant give natural birth. By doing this with dragons and other reptiles what possible conditions are we risking? Not saying anything against it but does anyone know the potential health threats? (Not saying there are health threats).


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## hurcorh (Jan 20, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> Mutations that reduce the risk of an animal surviving in the wild get wiped out as they don't survive and therefore produce no offspring. In captivity though they survive because they have food brought to them and a safe housing environment. How would a scaleless fare in the cold/hot? wouldn't their requirements be different? And with dogs pure bred dogs which were bred for their characteristics have loads of problems e.g. Hip displacier, respiratory and nostril issues and the bull dog cant give natural birth. By doing this with dragons and other reptiles what possible conditions are we risking? Not saying anything against it but does anyone know the potential health threats? (Not saying there are health threats).



Thats a very interesting point. Is this what is common in some Jags? Dont some run the risk of having neurological problems?


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jan 20, 2011)

Depends on the genetics they are breeding. I think the basic idea is to have a strong gene of breeders. You must wipe out neurological disorders before you plan on breeding or producing. Theres alot to it that's to much to explain on here. Not to forget..We may be behind..But US is also taking it as a learning curve. They don't get it perfect every time of course, and they still have a lot of work in the future. We will always be behind. But we should be taking there experience to our advantage here.


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## Jay84 (Jan 20, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> Mutations that reduce the risk of an animal surviving in the wild get wiped out as they don't survive and therefore produce no offspring. In captivity though they survive because they have food brought to them and a safe housing environment. Is it of your opinion that they not be bred because they may not survive in the wild? The reasons most morphs/mutations do not survive in the wild is because they stand out and are easy pickings for predators. Not necessarily weaker individuals.How would a scaleless fare in the cold/hot? wouldn't their requirements be different? And with dogs pure bred dogs which were bred for their characteristics have loads of problems e.g. Hip displacier, respiratory and nostril issues and the bull dog cant give natural birth. By doing this with dragons and other reptiles what possible conditions are we risking? Dogs have been bred to change their physical shape and structure. A sausage dog for example, tiny legs and elongated spine, bulldogs and pugs, squashed noses and big heads. All the yanks have done with beardies is breed colour morphs. These would have been produced as oddballs in a clutch and then worked on to reproduce this colour trait. They have not been bred to have bigger heads, or shorter limbs etc etc.Not saying anything against it but does anyone know the potential health threats? (Not saying there are health threats).


Look at birds, there are thousands of colour mutations in birds. These are not genetically weaker than their normal counterparts. Look at the Indian Ringneck, they have so many mutations it would be hard to count. They dont seem to have problems breeding, feeding, flying etc etc. just because you have a mutation or a morph does not make it weak.


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## waruikazi (Jan 20, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Look at birds, there are thousands of colour mutations in birds. These are not genetically weaker than their normal counterparts. Look at the Indian Ringneck, they have so many mutations it would be hard to count. They dont seem to have problems breeding, feeding, flying etc etc. just because you have a mutation or a morph does not make it weak.



I agree with you Jay that being a morph does not automatically make the animal weak but there is a high incidence of mutated animals being weaker. 

I have a suspicion that most of these beardies will be a less robust animal than the wild type and i'll explain why. All Agamids need UV to synthesize VitD because they are insectivorous, for the most part. Most of the morphs pictured have a pigment defect and as we all know melanin is needed to absorb UV. Without an appropriate ammount of melanin they will need to get their vitD somewhere else. 

I'm quite confident that this is why the aussie albino beardies and water dragon have not come onto the market yet.


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## AllThingsReptile (Jan 20, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> Mutations that reduce the risk of an animal surviving in the wild get wiped out as they don't survive and therefore produce no offspring. In captivity though they survive because they have food brought to them and a safe housing environment. How would a scaleless fare in the cold/hot? wouldn't their requirements be different? And with dogs pure bred dogs which were bred for their characteristics have loads of problems e.g. Hip displacier, respiratory and nostril issues and the bull dog cant give natural birth. By doing this with dragons and other reptiles what possible conditions are we risking? Not saying anything against it but does anyone know the potential health threats? (Not saying there are health threats).


 is this a for, or against comment?, i think it raises an important point all the same, should we let our hobby get to that stage, just for some colourful beardies? no, im happy with the morphs we have at the moment thank you, dont get me wrong, i love some of those pics, its just what had to happen to get those morphs is my problem......dannyboi, also, are you trying to point out that mutations do happen in the wild? it just they all die, so we can breed morphs, because they do happen?, with that i actually agree, its not the morphs i dont like, its the treatment of the animal, to me thats what matters


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## Braidotti (Jan 20, 2011)

I think the only one that might not be able to survive in the wild, would be the scaleless morphs.


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## Namn8r (Jan 20, 2011)

These look fully photoshopped... they look so colour saturated!


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## Dannyboi (Jan 20, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> All the yanks have done with beardies is breed colour morphs. These would have been produced as oddballs in a clutch and then worked on to reproduce this colour trait. They have not been bred to have bigger heads, or shorter limbs etc etc.Not


I was talking about the scaleless part. I think that is possibly to far and personally disgusting.


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## Eddie2257 (Jan 20, 2011)

i dont like all these morphs that are comming up these days. i realy like just a plain beardie just how you find them in the bush.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 20, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I agree with you Jay that being a morph does not automatically make the animal weak but there is a high incidence of mutated animals being weaker.
> 
> I have a suspicion that most of these beardies will be a less robust animal than the wild type and i'll explain why. All Agamids need UV to synthesize VitD because they are insectivorous, for the most part. Most of the morphs pictured have a pigment defect and as we all know melanin is needed to absorb UV. Without an appropriate ammount of melanin they will need to get their vitD somewhere else.
> 
> I'm quite confident that this is why the aussie albino beardies and water dragon have not come onto the market yet.



Fortunately the Americans have been breeding beardies without UV light for quite a few years!

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## Jay84 (Jan 21, 2011)

I just don't see breeding these beardies as any different to what we are doing here....

Super striped coastals and jungles.
Tiger Jungles
Hypo Beardies.
Leather back beardies.
Albino darwins, olives and spotteds.
Piebald Childreni.

How are any of the above different to what the yanks are doing with Beardies? Its just that they are so much further ahead of us!

I just don't see breeding these beardies as any different to what we are doing here....

Super striped coastals and jungles.
Tiger Jungles
Hypo Beardies.
Leather back beardies.
Albino darwins, olives and spotteds.
Piebald Childreni.

How are any of the above different to what the yanks are doing with Beardies? Its just that they are so much further ahead of us!


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## Dannyboi (Jan 21, 2011)

They are breeding them to be translucent and without scales. Thats how its different. Breeding for colours and patterns is fine to a degree but reptiles like beardies evolved to have scales now they are breeding them out of it. Thats how its different.


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## Jay84 (Jan 21, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> They are breeding them to be translucent and without scales. Thats how its different. Breeding for colours and patterns is fine to a degree but reptiles like beardies evolved to have scales now they are breeding them out of it. Thats how its different.


 Well then you won't have an issue with translucents then as that is a colour morph? Scaleless...... well we have scaleless death adders here too. The yanks have scaleless corn snakes. None of them seem to show any ill effects.

There is a breeder on this site breeding translucent knobtailed geckos.


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## Dannyboi (Jan 21, 2011)

And you wont see me buying the Scaleless death adders. Translucent has been shown in many species to have higher rates of cancer I am unaware if this is the same in Lizards as it is in frogs but the chance is always there.


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## W.T.BUY (Jan 21, 2011)

scorps said:


> The thing is, Jags popped up over night and so will these guys, thats if there not already here...


 
RSM Reduced scale morph anyone?


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## damian83 (Jan 21, 2011)

REPTILIAN-KMAN said:


> i love the Pied BD, the yanks have done it again !!!
> 
> they look freaky



i wonder if we took ours over on holidays and brought it back after breeding a female with coloured versions of theirs would it be legal offspring? it would be a costly excersise but would if be worth it


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## hurcorh (Jan 22, 2011)

damian83 said:


> i wonder if we took ours over on holidays and brought it back after breeding a female with coloured versions of theirs would it be legal offspring? it would be a costly excersise but would if be worth it


Well you cant take yours overseas for a 'holiday' in the first place. there goes ur masterful plan!


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## impulse reptiles (Jan 22, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Well then you won't have an issue with translucents then as that is a colour morph? Scaleless...... well we have scaleless death adders here too. The yanks have scaleless corn snakes. None of them seem to show any ill effects.
> 
> There is a breeder on this site breeding translucent knobtailed geckos.


 
from what i hear , the scaless beardies and corns have very bad shedding problems.
do scaleless death adders have shedding problems aswell?


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## Dannyboi (Jan 24, 2011)

there we go shedding problems I bet this is just the peak of the iceburg with scaleless issues.


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