# DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.



## abbott75 (May 8, 2009)

Side thread to the Womas on Class 1 thread.

There is talk of DECC enforcing minimum enclosure sizes, which are likely *a lot* larger than we currently keep our animals in.

Opinions anyone?


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## NotoriouS (May 8, 2009)

It would be a lot harder to 'enforce' in my opinion. They only way would be regular spot checks - don't know if they have the capacity for it. But then again, it would only be a good thing I guess. I have visited breeders who were keeping many reptiles in tiny enclosures so if this can be enforced it would definitely benefit the animals. Just hope they don't set riduculous requirements though (e.g. minimum 8 ft tank for spotteds )


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## beefa270 (May 8, 2009)

Could be a good thing, but near impossible to enforce


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## Duke (May 8, 2009)

They seem to be pretty serious about it. NPWS has employed another three people specifically for the spot checks, and they know what they're doing.


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## wokka (May 8, 2009)

what sizes do you consider reasonable ?


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## taylor111 (May 8, 2009)

how big are we talking?


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## abbott75 (May 8, 2009)

I don't it will be good at all. There is no possible way I could keep all my animals if Antaresia had a minimum 4x2x2.

I don't neglect any of my animals, but I do keep them in a tub/rack system, which will probably be outlawed if these moves go ahead.


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## Oldbeard (May 8, 2009)

Its so typical of them to enforce another law onto us, when they have probably never kept a reptile in their lives...Let me guess ...a captive reptile needs enough room in his cage to exercise and run around and take the kiddies out to play football....
Seriously though, how big are we talking???


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## JasonL (May 8, 2009)

The larger sizes also brings up the subject of heating, try keeping a good ambient in an enclosure with a 4 or 6 square meter floor space. Is raising the the enclosure sizes good for the animal? or just public perception?


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## Angharat (May 8, 2009)

*draft sizes*

Is there anywhere that the proposed minimum sizes can be found?

I haven't been able to find anything after a quick look at the DEC website.


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## abbott75 (May 8, 2009)

From the Woma thread:



gillsy said:


> The only thing as keepers we have to be worried of is minimum size enclosures eg 4ftx2fx2ft for each stimson's and this is going to be legally inforced.


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## Hetty (May 8, 2009)

The size thing is silly. Even if you let the snake have all the room it wants (by means of escaping lol) then it will find the snuggest place it can.

It might be intended for the benefit of the animal but we keepers know it isn't. I don't think the changes will go ahead though, there's too much opposition from keepers.


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## JasonL (May 8, 2009)

Angharat said:


> Is there anywhere that the proposed minimum sizes can be found?
> 
> I haven't been able to find anything after a quick look at the DEC website.



They have not been officially decided on yet, so havn't been published, there has been draft knocked up, but these arn't for public veiwing as yet as there are numerous matters that need ironing out.


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## swaddo (May 8, 2009)

Angharat said:


> Is there anywhere that the proposed minimum sizes can be found? I haven't been able to find anything after a quick look at the DEC website.


i rang them about it this morning and the woman on the end of the phone knew nothing about it. guess we'll have to wait a while yet


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## snakehandler (May 8, 2009)

We gave our 4m olives a large enclosure, it meets the Victorian guidelines for keeping reptiles in captivity for length but not height and width, they would want an enclosure 1.8m long x1.0m high x 1.5m wide , we find all three in the smallest area that they can find, however they do use the space occasionally, the enclosure is 2.4 metres x 0.6mx0.6m......to ask for such dimensions is ridiculous.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nreninf.nsf/93a98744f6ec41bd4a256c8e00013aa9/1f4999def151cfd4ca256f0f001b052b/$FILE/AG1134.pdf
That is the link to the document in current use for VIC.


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## gillsy (May 8, 2009)

They haven't been published yet, and they are doing ramdon checks at the moment.

NPWS are getting their act together.


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## Angharat (May 8, 2009)

JasonL said:


> They have not been officially decided on yet, so havn't been published, there has been draft knocked up, but these arn't for public veiwing as yet as there are numerous matters that need ironing out.



Thanks- I guess there's also all the fun of some form of public consultation process to follow.

Maybe I should finally join AHS or something similar in the hopes of finding out more


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## craig23 (May 8, 2009)

I have heard things like many meters of floor space for 1 pair of small monitors, like tristis for eg... meaning in my entire herp room, which i keep many animals, i would be able to keep a couple of pairs of small monitors. 

Firstly I would like to ask peoples opinions of how DECC will stand up in court if they impose min enclosure sizes that basically price people out of existing stock(reptiles) and also how they will stand up in court agaist hundreds of people who have spent many thousands on enclosures meeting current acceptable DECC standards, which are now worthless. 

Also there is alot of research out there, and experience from qualified people, that prove alot of reptiles are better off in smaller enclosures. They can be maintained better, kept more hygenically, medicated, fed, and monitored better in small enclosures, and this is published, researched stuff.

A change in leglislation that makes worthless many thousands of dollars of investments (enclosures) and is also a step backwards in captive reptile husbandry.... I think we have a good case in court.


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## Jason (May 8, 2009)

2.5 square meters per bearded dragon, 8square m for an olive large carpets in 6ft x 4ft x 4ft... no benefit to the animal!! just unpractical and rather difficult to maintain proper hygiene... it WOULD KILL the hobby as we know it... the Zoos struggle to meet the requirements they are proposing... 60square meters for a lacey. if it happens the big breeders are the ones they will go after first and they can not meet requirements

public perception... im sorry but no regular member of the public is welcome near, in or around me snakes so nope... dosent fit the bill. its stupid! my beleif however does relete to public perception in pet shops! they will be in shops soon but they first need to come up wuth the size enclosures for shops which is an issue in other states.

no body can come into my house and tell me that becuase my carpet is in an imaculate well maintained hygienic 4x2x2ft enclosure that my husbandary is not upto scratch.... they can take me to court... the can stick there 'ideas' somewhere else!!

as you could probably tell im alittle annoyed about the idea


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## Sturdy (May 8, 2009)

lol go jason.


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## Chris1 (May 8, 2009)

i think its great to have some kind of guidelines, especially for lizards,...but thats a bit extreme!!

i think its disgraceful that some people keep grown beardies in a 1X2 foot cage,..i'll be happy for all animals involved when it happens,....


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## abbott75 (May 8, 2009)

Chris1 said:


> i think its great to have some kind of guidelines, especially for lizards,...but thats a bit extreme!!
> 
> i think its disgraceful that some people keep grown beardies in a 1X2 foot cage,..i'll be happy for all animals involved when it happens,....



For dragons maybe it is a good idea... but snakes?


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## mark83 (May 8, 2009)

There should be a minimum but I think they should be realistic. Appropriate sized tubs are fine imo but if they go overboard it will cost alot of money for people to build new enclosure's and they will have to downsize their collection. The sizes that have been mentioned so far are ridiculous and way too big.


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## Jason (May 8, 2009)

guideline would be much better! not enforced requirements. i think its obvious that a central or eastern beardie for example should be housed in a 4x2x2ft enclosure... 
i keep a few carpets in tubs, adult jungles 4.5ft maximum length in tubs that measure 1000L x 600W x 200H yes they dont have the height but i still supply them with a perch etc and they have very clean enclosures. the floor area of each of these enclosures is actually larger then a 3x2x2 enclosure they just dont havse the extra height. in saying that whats the difference between a pearch 4 inches of the ground (as in my tubs) in comparison to one 8inches off the ground ( as in most 2ft H enclosures)?....nothing the animal is still practically on the ground... when you go bush how often would an arboreal pecies perch only 8inches off the ground.

either way what is a suitable size for a jungle? especially when their range is 4-8ft? what about the size for hatchies etc?


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## Chris1 (May 8, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> For dragons maybe it is a good idea... but snakes?



not so much fro snakes, but i dont agree with them being kept in click clacks when theyre fully grown just so people can squeeze as many in a small area as possible to make max $ either.

none of those sizes are realistic, but i do think 4x2x2 for example per dragon would be nice.


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## 888lowndes888 (May 8, 2009)

Man those keeping scrubbies will need a small zoo to keep them in by the looks of it. In all seriousness good points have been raised. How about this point, where do they draw the line between hatchy and adult? Do they now expect us to put the hatchies in these monster enclosures and if not how do they police at what point the animal must be put into the legally enforced enclosure size?They could say once they hit yearling they must be taken out of click clacks and placed into a legal enclosure but I bet if you compared 50 animals of the same species the size variety would be massive. Some peoples snakes by yearling are huge whilst others are bare;y bigger than a hatchy and we all know that small snakes don;t like large areas.


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## mark83 (May 8, 2009)

I would like to hear what breeders have to say about size requirements.


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## craig23 (May 8, 2009)

Arnt there "breeders" already making comments now on this thread?


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## -Peter (May 8, 2009)

mfreud said:


> I would like to hear what breeders have to say about size requirements.


It doesn't just effect breeders, it effects all keepers at all levels. 
No racks, no tubs. Generalised size requirements. The scoping is being done as we type. Size recommendations are already being bandied about.
This is not await and see situation.
The investigation staff have been hired and are already working as Gillsy stated.
Discussion papers have been passed around to various interested organisations but they aren't for publication. 
DECC are not even happy that some herpers have got together to discuss this without inviting them.


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## pythons73 (May 8, 2009)

So anyone that owns Scrubbys or Olives have to keep them in a bedroom,you can keep a 4foot snake in a huge enclosure,BUT they will only use a small proportion of it,hide in the corner in their hide box.Apparently this has been discussed at length with NPW.If these so called new requirements do come into play,how many especially the bigger breeders will have no other option but to give the hobby away,as it will cost a fortune to replace all the enclosures..


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## snakehandler (May 8, 2009)

It looks like the DECC are trying to push NSW out of reptile keeping!


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## craig23 (May 8, 2009)

Well until DECC want to compensate people who have forked out thousands for racks that are legal right now, there will be lots of people, time and money tied up in court.


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## craig23 (May 8, 2009)

I wouldnt worry, if their attempt to bring in rediculus legislation is as professional and complete as the new species list, we will be right.


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## JasonL (May 8, 2009)

I might just add, it's not completely about size issues, but also goes into heating ie thermal gradients and day night cycles


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## Ramsayi (May 8, 2009)

craig23 said:


> Well until DECC want to compensate people who have forked out thousands for racks that are legal right now, there will be lots of people, time and money tied up in court.



There will be no compensation for the cost of any enclosures that need to be scrapped because of any new regs.

Some have made comments re breeders.What needs to be remembered is if breeding animals are not healthy and happy then they will NOT breed.

The current proposals are a serious concern and total overkill,anyone with even a basic understanding of reptiles can see this.Lets just hope the people who are in talks with the DECC have some luck in getting them to see reason.


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## Oldbeard (May 8, 2009)

craig23 said:


> I wouldnt worry, if their attempt to bring in rediculus legislation is as professional and complete as the new species list, we will be right.


 
Thats exactly right...maybe they should stick to what their actual job is (species list) and get THAT right, :shock::shock:before they even try to venture into something beyond their jurisdiction. Leave it to animal welfare groups (RSPCA) whether or not enclosure size is good or cruel for the reptile.:shock:


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## craig23 (May 8, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> There will be no compensation for the cost of any enclosures that need to be scrapped because of any new regs.
> 
> Compensation will be up to the courts to decide, not the DECC.


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## Ramsayi (May 8, 2009)

craig23 said:


> Ramsayi said:
> 
> 
> > There will be no compensation for the cost of any enclosures that need to be scrapped because of any new regs.
> ...


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## Chris1 (May 8, 2009)

why would anyone get compensated?
thats a bizzare idea,....


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## wokka (May 8, 2009)

If regulations are unrealistic it is likely that more keepers will go off licence. Why would keepers get a licence if they cant comply with the regulations?The hobby will move from Macdonalds carpark to the back alleys of Kings Cross.


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## asis (May 8, 2009)

So would these new requirements rule out the use of Slitherin Racks?

Are they also talking minimums for geckoes?


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## Oldbeard (May 8, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> It looks like the DECC are trying to push NSW out of reptile keeping!


 
it wont stop anyone from keeping reptiles...it will just force everybody underground...which will be worse for NPWS as they will lose money in licencing/ permits etc.....:cry::cry:
It will send the reptile industry ten steps backwards...instead of encouraging it to grow, as it has over the past ten years...
They should stick to what they know best...maintaining the National Parks, go back to toilet cleaning and collecting over priced fees for entry and camping, and leave the reptile husbandry to educated reptile keepers who know whats best for them.
IMO it is just some knob trying to get a feather in his cap, to say he wrote the laws and what a great job he did of putting it over all the reptile enthusiasts of NSW:evil::evil::evil:


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## Jay (May 8, 2009)

Hmmmm a great NSW reptile week this is.
I can keep woma's on a class 1 now, but soon may not have the room for them and have to sell half of my current snakes. Lovely -_-


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## Oldbeard (May 8, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> There will be no compensation for the cost of any enclosures that need to be scrapped because of any new regs.
> 
> Some have made comments re breeders.What needs to be remembered is if breeding animals are not healthy and happy then they will NOT breed.
> 
> .


 

Yes and many breeders will agree that the enclosure sizes they are using are perfect for healthy happy breeding.I have had all my snakes in tub systems for the last 3 years and all are healthy and breeding well.
I have 12 rack systems and the heating is perfect for snakes , the cleaning is much more hygenic then what I was doing in Melamine enclosures. If I am forced to have bigger enclosures, I will have to sell two thirds my adults to fit in the same room.
Even if I had spare room to spread them all out into huge enclosures, I wouldnt have the time to keep them as hygenic as they are now and would still have to downsize.

This must be a g-up, there is no way in this day and age that a department could have the power to change something so significant, when they have not a clue what they are doing.


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## Ramsayi (May 8, 2009)

Oldbeard said:


> Yes and many breeders will agree that the enclosure sizes they are using are perfect for healthy happy breeding.I have had all my snakes in tub systems for the last 3 years and all are healthy and breeding well.
> I have 12 rack systems and the heating is perfect for snakes , the cleaning is much more hygenic then what I was doing in Melamine enclosures. If I am forced to have bigger enclosures, I will have to sell two thirds my adults to fit in the same room.
> Even if I had spare room to spread them all out into huge enclosures, I wouldnt have the time to keep them as hygenic as they are now and would still have to downsize.
> 
> This must be a g-up, there is no way in this day and age that a department could have the power to change something so significant, when they have not a clue what they are doing.



Am sorry to say that this situation is NO g-up.For the life of me I cannot understand how they came up with the enclosure sizes in their current proposal.Ironically even zoos and parks etc will not comply.

We keep carpets singly in 1200x800x600mm enclosures yet these will fall well short of what they are proposing.Rest assured that if this goes ahead then the DECC will have one hell of a fight in front of them.


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## longte (May 8, 2009)

Laws like this are only enforced to protect mistreated animals
We have all seen or heard of large snakes in small enclosures or click clacks etc

It is about time private keepers had to assume some responsibility for their pets
If the guidelines follow the same guidelines used for commercial operators it is roughly as follows
2metre snake enclosure minimum 1000mm x 500mm x 2000mm tall [if aboreal] or 2000mm long for olives waters etc
If you check the website I think the dimensions for commercial operators will be there somewhere

Yes, I totally agree that in some cases it is overkill, but I use Qlds exhibitors code for my snakes; even though I do not exhibit; and they seem quite happy with their habitats

If this stops some reptiles from having terrible conditions it will be well worth it


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## girdheinz (May 8, 2009)

What you outline is about half the size of the proposed caging requirements for an olive python.

Gird


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## girdheinz (May 8, 2009)

longte said:


> If the guidelines follow the same guidelines used for commercial operators it is roughly as follows
> 2metre snake enclosure minimum 1000mm x 500mm x 2000mm tall [if aboreal] or 2000mm long for olives waters etc
> If you check the website I think the dimensions for commercial operators will be there somewhere


 
The problem here is it will not be guidelines. It is proposed to be *mandatory minimum cage sizes.*

Gird


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## Jay (May 8, 2009)

Any word on when its going into place? Or how long we have to comply before fines/confiscations are made?


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## craig23 (May 8, 2009)

longte said:


> Laws like this are only enforced to protect mistreated animals
> We have all seen or heard of large snakes in small enclosures or click clacks etc
> 
> It is about time private keepers had to assume some responsibility for their pets
> ...




From what I have been told by people who have been apart of this, you yourself longte wont meet the requirements with your cage size... thus the reason for people being upset. Hope you have lots of money to spend on new enclosures


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## The_Cake (May 8, 2009)

Can i get a refund on a 5 year license i just payed last month?


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## Oldbeard (May 8, 2009)

longte said:


> Laws like this are only enforced to protect mistreated animals
> We have all seen or heard of large snakes in small enclosures or click clacks etc
> 
> It is about time private keepers had to assume some responsibility for their pets
> ...


 
somebody shoot me now!!!!!!!!! Please!!!!!


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## pinkmus (May 8, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> We keep carpets singly in 1200x800x600mm enclosures yet these will fall well short of what they are proposing.



:shock: I hope they don't go ahead with it...How big would an enclosure have to be to house a pair of diamonds?


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## redbellybite (May 8, 2009)

Alot of these standards are hogwash ...these rules and regulations are getting beyond a joke ..
I hope for the day we can act as one country and have one set of general rules that abide by all states and territories including Tassie ...would make it alot more simple to know the rules and regulations and be able to purchase all types of reps ...like crocs for us banana benders....


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## DA_GRIZ (May 8, 2009)

with any luck these laws don't come into action but maybe if decc sees this thread they can let us know what is actually happening with it.


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## links (May 8, 2009)

The_Cake said:


> Can i get a refund on a 5 year license i just payed last month?


 

I think this will be the general consensus if these ridiculous laws are brought in.


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## Jay (May 8, 2009)

As others have said , all that will result is practically obliterating the NSW based market and push the vast majority of people to go off licence.


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## pythonmum (May 8, 2009)

Just got home after a conference and everything changes while I'm gone!!! (Glad about womas). Anyway, where are you getting info on minimum enclosure sizes? Current regulations for exhibited reptiles in NSW use these formulas:


*Lizard* (L= total length of longest of 2 lizards displayed together) minimum floor area for 2 specimens = 2.5L x 2.5 L. Minimum height for terrestrial is the larger of either 2x head-body length or 40 cm. Minimum height for arboreal is the larger of 4x head-body length or 60 cm.
*Terrestrial snake* (L is total length of snake). floor area greater than or equal to 0.3Lsquared, but no dimension less than 0.3L.
*Arboreal snake* - same floor as terrestrial, but minimum of 0.5L for height of enclosure.
In practice, this means that a 2m python needs an enclosure at least 0.6m long x 0.6m wide x 1m tall. The height is going to be the biggest problem for most people. If DECC mandates different housing requirements than these, all businesses will have to change enclosures. I can't see that happening.


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## Slytherin (May 8, 2009)

If the extreme cage sizes was inforced SA, I'd have to move into Snakey's enclosure and he would get my bedroom  (He thinks its his anyway :lol. I've given him plenty of room and from what I've seen, he prefers things to not be too large (Enclosure 1mt tall by 80cm long by 60cm wide)

Why doesn't the Gov do something to catch REAL criminals instead.


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## girdheinz (May 8, 2009)

pythonmum said:


> Just got home after a conference and everything changes while I'm gone!!! (Glad about womas). Anyway, where are you getting info on minimum enclosure sizes? Current regulations for exhibited reptiles in NSW use these formulas:
> 
> 
> *Lizard* (L= total length of longest of 2 lizards displayed together) minimum floor area for 2 specimens = 2.5L x 2.5 L. Minimum height for terrestrial is the larger of either 2x head-body length or 40 cm. Minimum height for arboreal is the larger of 4x head-body length or 60 cm.
> ...


 

Exhibited animals don't come under DECC but under DPI. DPI also have a new draft for their act.

Gird


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## Cabotinage (May 8, 2009)

and me and dad where talking about getting a table enclosure and housing something in that. 

oh and also talking about when my coastal of a year should go into a big enclosure as he is a year old about 1.3m long???? and in a 3x2x2 cage (3long)

so if this follows through ill need a what size enclosure? it probably wont fit through my door or garage.


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## Slytherin (May 8, 2009)

Cabotinage said:


> so if this follows through ill need a what size enclosure? it probably wont fit through my door or garage.



The garage would BE the enclosure


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## zulu (May 8, 2009)

*re DECC*

I dont give a rats what DECC comes up with,i keep reptiles in cages and heat them,cycling etc the way i think is best,ive found that many species actually like living in the rack systems ile be getting more,they can go to billyo with there trendy ilinformed animal liberationist suck up ideas.


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## pythonmum (May 8, 2009)

No one seems to have seen the proposal, so it may not have originated with DECC at all. I think it's premature to get overly worked up. If anyone can provide a link to the proposal which gives it validity, I'd be interested to read it.


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## SammySnakes (May 8, 2009)

It is a draft that has originated with DECC and as someone has previously stated, it is not available for comment to the public as yet, only to a small number of herp reps.

As they currently stand, the cage sizes are ridiculously large and with good sense, will be drastically reduced whilst still in draft form. Surely the proposed standards won't go ahead, but if they do, people have a very good reason to be overly worked up.


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## adz83 (May 8, 2009)

and this is all happening just as im about to order my new enclosures.....looks like i mite hav to put em on hold for the moment

i only live in a small place n theres noway i can keep all my snakes in novelty sized enclosures....its ridiculous


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## Jason (May 8, 2009)

zulu said:


> I dont give a rats what DECC comes up with,i keep reptiles in cages and heat them,cycling etc the way i think is best,ive found that many species actually like living in the rack systems ile be getting more,they can go to billyo with there trendy ilinformed animal liberationist suck up ideas.



Im with you! screw em... i dont need some clown telling me what is best. as rams said, they wont breed if they arent kept and maintained properly...my setup speeks for itself.



pythonmum said:


> No one seems to have seen the proposal, so it may not have originated with DECC at all. I think it's premature to get overly worked up. If anyone can provide a link to the proposal which gives it validity, I'd be interested to read it.



premature..., there have already been a good half a dozen meeting in regards to this between a select few and the DECC trying to come up with sizes... because the keepers and DECC cant come to an agreement, from what i hear they have said if the keepers and DECC cant agree then the DECC will go ahead with what ever sizes they want... and there is said to be a deadline. premature, it is happening and has been in discussion for months now.

Underground hobby is very likely if they do it! this would also increase the number of exotics


One of the biggest issues i have is the 'selected' keepers that are sitting in on the meetings, from what i hear they have to be PHD's etc (correct me if im wrong) but i dont think some 'know it all' that only have ever done conservation biology etc knows jack about husbendry of all species.

I know that members of this forum are involved in the discussions so surely they can shed some lilght on the subject??


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## mungus (May 8, 2009)

I currently keep all my large snakes in over sized enclosures [ bar the stimmies which are kept in 600Wx500Dx500H enclosures. So I dont mind the larger enclosures, I get better temp. gradient in them anyway and will continue to use them.
But then I have the room.....:lol::lol:


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## zack13 (May 8, 2009)

Jason said:


> Im with you! screw em... i dont need some clown telling me what is best. as rams said, they wont breed if they arent kept and maintained properly...my setup speeks for itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Im not saying your wrong but I dont think that people with their doctorate will not be informed about reptiles. They study them for a year then write atleast 100,000 word essay about it that has to be approved not just anything gets through. So I wouldn't be worrying about them more about the DECC not listening to them and making them whatever they want.


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## redcentrerodents (May 8, 2009)

*Far out*

What about collections like that of John Weigel and Snake Ranch????


surely he would be in talks with the people drafting these new regulation's, i bet he would be against these proposals and may have some input, no???


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## swaddo (May 8, 2009)

zack13 said:


> Im not saying your wrong but I dont think that people with their doctorate will not be informed about reptiles. They study them for a year then write atleast 100,000 word essay about it that has to be approved not just anything gets through. So I wouldn't be worrying about them more about the DECC not listening to them and making them whatever they want.



LOL, i know ppl with a doctorate that still couldnt find their bum with both hands. you cant teach common sense


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## scam7278 (May 9, 2009)

so if they do bring in the minimum cage sizes and we cant afford to keep snakes in these oversized enclosures, what happens to all the snake that are being kept now? do we hand them all back into DECC? and will thay have the room to hold 1000's of unwanted animals? aswell as keep to their hygene protacol?


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## Bushfire (May 9, 2009)

The concerns over this piece of legislation are very real. It has been in the proposed stage for some years now, use the search function on in this forum and read some of Jeff Hardy's (former head of enforcement)posts. We have been told its coming whether we like it or not but haven't publically seen the finer print, but judging from some reactions of those that have seen it, it doesn't look too impressive. Its based loosely around a few documents with Victoria's Code of Practice being one of them. The big difference being that Victoria's one is only a guideline whereas the NSW one will be a law.


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## Jungletrans (May 9, 2009)

l hate rack systems , keeping large snakes in tubs is like battery hens in my opinion . All my pythons are in large enclosures and l only keep as many as l can house in them . lf they get carried away with cage sizes , well , l live in Victoria . Not a problem .


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## zoolander (May 9, 2009)

since when did DECC have jurisdiction over animal welfare. their job is to ensure animals are obtained lawfully. they can have guidelines which make them feel all warm and fuzzy, but enforcement and prosecution.....well ask John Elliott......"pigsass"


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## wokka (May 9, 2009)

Jason said:


> Underground hobby is very likely if they do it! this would also increase the number of exotics
> 
> 
> One of the biggest issues i have is the 'selected' keepers that are sitting in on the meetings, from what i hear they have to be PHD's etc (correct me if im wrong) but i dont think some 'know it all' that only have ever done conservation biology etc knows jack about husbendry of all species.
> ...



The keeper representatives include a very broad experience in keeping snakes,lizards and turtles. Some do have PHDs but they also keep large collections for display and breeding, both privately and publicly and have done for many years. I wouldn't discribe them as "know it alls".
The question is: Are DECC going to take notice of the advisory group or is it merely lip service to satisfy the requirements for public consultation?


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## links (May 9, 2009)

wokka said:


> The keeper representatives include a very broad experience in keeping snakes,lizards and turtles. Some do have PHDs but they also keep large collections for display and breeding, both privately and publicly and have done for many years. I wouldn't discribe them as "know it alls".
> The question is: Are DECC going to take notice of the advisory group or is it merely lip service to satisfy the requirements for public consultation?


 
Well said Wokka! 
Jason: I wouldnt be bagging anyone sitting in on those meetings. They are on our side, whether they are phds or not, im sure they have our reptiles best interests at heart.
a group of ten of them would have more experince with reptile husbandry than all the people on APS put together.


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## -Peter (May 9, 2009)

The problem is wokka that the advisory group is not made up of keepers. It is made up of a variety of people with varying ideology. Some impose their own ideas of anthropomorphism onto the animals we keep.
They raise points like "How would you feel if you were forced to live in a plastic tray with a sheet of newspaper, heat gradient, bowl of water, shed assist item and all the rodents you could eat. You wouldn't like it would you?"
Well I would if I was a spotted python.


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## Jason (May 9, 2009)

wokka said:


> The keeper representatives include a very broad experience in keeping snakes,lizards and turtles. Some do have PHDs but they also keep large collections for display and breeding, both privately and publicly and have done for many years. I wouldn't discribe them as "know it alls".
> The question is: Are DECC going to take notice of the advisory group or is it merely lip service to satisfy the requirements for public consultation?



Well who are they and why aren't they named? seems to me that we are getting less and less say in our hobby, so i think that all the details should be out in the open. if they expect me to keep paying to keep animals and expect people to do things legit DECC/NPWS really need to get their act together.



links said:


> Jason: I wouldnt be bagging anyone sitting in on those meetings. They are on our side, whether they are phds or not, im sure they have our reptiles best interests at heart.
> a group of ten of them would have more experince with reptile husbandry than all the people on APS put together.



My comments may be blunt but im not 'bagging' them. what im trying to say is that its wrong that such a huge and influential rule lies in the hands of people we dont know... i dont even know who or what they are?
assuming a group of ten would know more you would need to know who the ten would be... i dont, if you do id be very interested to know... maybe it will put me at ease. Either way i know they are fighting for our rights and trying to help us, the thing is hate the most is that we dont know that the DECC are actually listening or whethere they are there just to keep people happy.

Im going to leave it at that for now, i dont want to get to worked up or over the top about something i obviously have no control over nor say in. Nor do we know what may or may not happen or change.... ill wait and see. until then i only hope that the sizes are realistic cause from what iv seen and heard they aren't


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## JasonL (May 9, 2009)

It won't be a mammoth task for them, they will bring in the rules, and only enforce them if they want to, ie, they do a spot inspection, and if they don't like you, or think you need a kick up the backside, they will use these laws to do so, again, if they think someone is selling a bit on the commercial side, they may also use these laws at will to pin them.... I think these laws will be a handy tool for them to help flex their muscles against those they want to.


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## jacorin (May 9, 2009)

yo cement,
would like to say i agree with you but i cant

i know of a bloke who,as a millionaire,is spending $1,000,000 in legals,to fight this dept over some of his birds

if they want to waste the money,they will


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## KingSirloin (May 9, 2009)

I don't see a problem, if you get an unexpected inspection....."_No officer, that's not the enclosure, that's just the hide box. Oh and any attempts on your life are nothing personal, the big girl is due for a feed_"


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## craig23 (May 9, 2009)

...


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## craig23 (May 9, 2009)

posting issues


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## craig23 (May 9, 2009)

Apparently Venom Supplies has recently done some research / trails on cage sizes and breeding sucess on a few species including coastal taipans. I hear second hand that the results are that taipans and other species are PROVEN to do better, and reproduce better in smaller enclosures.

I think people in general, including some of the people who have posted on this thread, need to relise that reptiles, snakes in particular, are not people, they are not dogs, cats, or anything else. They are snakes. They have extremely small brains, and live following very simple instincts and very simple thought processes.
A snake is not "happy" or "sad" or "bored" a snake doesnt sit there and say "wow, what a crappy small enclosure" A basic rule coming from research is if a snake is eating, *****ting, shedding, and breeding, then it is physically healthy, and 'emotionally" healthy. A stressed snake which is not satisfied with its environment wont eat, it wont be healthy, and most of all, it wont breed. 

People really need to stop thinking snakes and reptiles have emotions and have thought processes comparable to humans. How do I know??? because research on animals ans brain size/composition tells us. Parts of our brain that process emotion, snakes dont have, and so on and so on.

Alot, and i mean hundreds if not thousands more experts that have studied and bred snakes will agree on smaller enclosures than DECC can possibly come up with that will say the contrary


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## Sandy009 (May 10, 2009)

longte said:


> Laws like this are only enforced to protect mistreated animals
> We have all seen or heard of large snakes in small enclosures or click clacks etc
> 
> It is about time private keepers had to assume some responsibility for their pets
> ...


 
Agreed. Like people who keep snakes in old falling apart particle board cupboards and such. God to hear you are up to code Longte.

As you said Exhibitors Code can be accesses from the EPA website for anyone who wants to look into it. (PDF docs)


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## Vat69 (May 10, 2009)

-Peter said:


> The problem is wokka that the advisory group is not made up of keepers. It is made up of a variety of people with varying ideology. Some impose their own ideas of anthropomorphism onto the animals we keep.
> They raise points like "How would you feel if you were forced to live in a plastic tray with a sheet of newspaper, heat gradient, bowl of water, shed assist item and all the rodents you could eat. You wouldn't like it would you?"
> Well I would if I was a spotted python.



With such intimate insight you must also be sitting on the board? Got any more info for us plebs? If the advisory board is not made up of keepers, what does it consist of?


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## Slateman (May 10, 2009)

longte said:


> Laws like this are only enforced to protect mistreated animals
> We have all seen or heard of large snakes in small enclosures or click clacks etc
> 
> It is about time private keepers had to assume some responsibility for their pets
> ...



Uff I agree that animals should have proper environment to live in. But size 1000mm x 500mm x 2000mm for coastal is bit much. There must be some reasonable outcome on the end of this saga.


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## FAY (May 10, 2009)

I think that you will find that there are very adept, sensible people on this committee, that love the hobby and want only the best for the animals.
Let's hope that NPWS and this committee can sit around a table, have total respect for each others input and come out with a min enclosure that is not only sensible, but that most will be happy with esp the animals. (Let's face it, it is impossible to make everyone happy!) LOL
There is nothing black and white in deciding these things....too many shades of grey. Every species of reptiles have different needs. Snakes expecially just freak out in too big an enclosure.


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## Oldbeard (May 10, 2009)

They can come out with guide lines all day long,but its when they say that they can enforce the laws on cage sizes is the big worry.


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## -Peter (May 10, 2009)

Vat69 said:


> With such intimate insight you must also be sitting on the board? Got any more info for us plebs? If the advisory board is not made up of keepers, what does it consist of?


 
Whats your point Erin? DECC advisory committee is nmade up of a cross section of the communitee. It has members of several animal welfare organisation sitting on it but you already know that so I guess your trying to push some other agenda.


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## m.punja (May 10, 2009)

If these rules come out I'd nearly rather live in WA. Might have to check off NSW as a possible living place along with Tassie and WA and ACT. I'm pretty happy with Vic actually  I hope the best comes out of this and it doesn't go ahead the way it is. All the best.


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## Vat69 (May 10, 2009)

-Peter said:


> Whats your point Erin? DECC advisory committee is nmade up of a cross section of the communitee. It has members of several animal welfare organisation sitting on it but you already know that so I guess your trying to push some other agenda.



I'm genuinely curious. But I've just re-read your post and I took you as saying the committee had no keepers in it, rather than it's not made up solely of keepers. That's where my misunderstanding arose. It made me confused-I thought there was another committee I didn't know about. As such, I agree with the sentiment in your original post.
No other agenda here I just wanted to clarify my understanding and I worded my previous post pretty badly. Apologies for that


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## jacorin (May 10, 2009)

things like this bring ppl undone and can cause a lot of heartache and anguish.
i know it did when DECC brought out they're Exotic Birds regs. we all just have to stay calm and await the info as it comes(sometimes verrrrrrrrrry slowly) it is a gov. department after all.

saying that,i'd like to see a national system brought in across the board,where every state and territory uses the same laws n regs as each other ( like drivers licences should be as well)

just my thoughts


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## m.punja (May 10, 2009)

I hope not jacorin, we might all adopt DECC's way of thinking....?


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## jacorin (May 10, 2009)

oooppppsss soz punja.

i was thinking more of wot animals on wot licence(at a national level) mainly

like the person in another post,got into trouble for importing snakes into WA that were illegal.

(think they were diamonds) why are they not allowed over there?

i should think better before engaging typing fingers


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## ecosnake (May 10, 2009)

I base a lot of my enclosure by the length of the snake, like the front of the enclosure ad the side should be equal or larger to the length of the snake, height depending on the snake species. Snake need to be able to stretch out.


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## cement (May 10, 2009)

I think the DECC are screwed unless they take proper advice from experienced keepers who are fairly large breeders. 

Which it does seem they are doing (going by the woma decision).
If they come out with silly sizes like what this thread suggests, we are talking thousand's of cages, Hundreds of people. They will be swamped and overun with the mamoth impossible task.

Have a bit of faith people, I don't think they they really want to take on the people who have spent thousands on buying pairs of greens, albinos etc...

Imagine this "sorry but your cage sizes are under our new rule, we'll have to confiscate that trio of adult albino olives". yeh sure!


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## links (May 10, 2009)

shouldnt we be able to write to our local member expressing our disgust on what they are trying to do...why should we sit back and just wait and see what happens. it will be too late to do anything about it then. we all just bought snakes and enclosures from the expo.. hard earned money gone down the drain if we just sit back and let them say that we are not allowed to use those cages..
why should we hold back on buying cages for our snakes until we find out what they will allow us to have..we should be telling them what is best for our snakes and what enclosures are best for them...not let some dweeb from NPWS tell us what is best for our snakes...
its great that we have a group of well known keepers and phds on our side fighting for us...but shouldnt we be doing something as well....petitions...lettters etc.
.


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## links (May 10, 2009)

cement said:


> I think the DECC are screwed unless they take proper advice from experienced keepers who are fairly large breeders.
> 
> Which it does seem they are doing (going by the woma decision).
> If they come out with silly sizes like what this thread suggests, we are talking thousand's of cages, Hundreds of people. They will be swamped and overun with the mamoth impossible task.
> ...


 
faith and the DECC should not be used in the same breath


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## snakehunter (May 10, 2009)

Why would they do this for reptiles, as far as I know there aren't any minimum cage sizes for other protected fauna like birds or fish. What next, 5 acre backyards for large dogs?


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## JasonL (May 10, 2009)

snakehunter said:


> Why would they do this for reptiles, as far as I know there aren't any minimum cage sizes for other protected fauna like birds or fish. What next, 5 acre backyards for large dogs?



Not just reptiles, they are just the first group their doing, Native birds are next so I have heard.


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## nat0810 (May 10, 2009)

If it all goes throught, i can already see DECC cage size for birds.

"sorry sir, but u can't keep that trio of cockkies unless u have a cage the size of Acer Arena"

Fingers crossed that DECC take the hobby's views seriously, and keep the minimums sensible.

I will be curious to see their ideas on anphibian enclosure sizes.


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## FAY (May 10, 2009)

I think the min cagesize business is more or less gearing up for the selling of reptiles in petshops in NSW.
God help that day!


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## Jackrabbit (May 10, 2009)

There would have to be some kind of amnesty or morotorium.

Assuming these restrictions come into play and people have to start selling all or part of their collection. This will cause a wholsesale drop in prices for a while as people dispose of animals. Alternatively, people will be forced to illegally dump them into the wild. Does that beneift the animals any more?

Breeders aren't going to buy them as they won't have the space to house additional animals and even with an expected drop in prices no new hobbyists will probably jump in with the restrictions in place.


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## bk201 (May 10, 2009)

ah if breeders and keepers have to sell then petshops can buy them...
i think the govt just wants to be able to tax reptile keeping...since they cant if people sell privately...


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## Jackrabbit (May 10, 2009)

zulu said:


> I dont give a rats what DECC comes up with,i keep reptiles in cages and heat them,cycling etc the way i think is best,ive found that many species actually like living in the rack systems ile be getting more,they can go to billyo with there trendy ilinformed animal liberationist suck up ideas.


 
At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"

Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.


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## bk201 (May 10, 2009)

yea comparing reptiles to people doesnt prove a point.
people arent reptiles so makes no good comparison, people work out how the snake likes where it lives depending on how healthy it is and if it will breed.


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## No-two (May 10, 2009)

Jackrabbit said:


> At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"
> 
> Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.


 
It's easy to see if an animal enjoys the way it is kept, as ramsayi stated earlier on, if the animlas are not happy they won't breed, I agree animals can't say they like it but I'm quiet confident my snakes like the privacy and space provided by rack systems, racks allow you to keep them much much more hygenic, they heat very well and you can get a gradient very easily, a snake would happily live in one place in the wild if everything was provided to them in that one spot like in captivity.


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## links (May 10, 2009)

craig23 said:


> Apparently Venom Supplies has recently done some research / trails on cage sizes and breeding sucess on a few species including coastal taipans. I hear second hand that the results are that taipans and other species are PROVEN to do better, and reproduce better in smaller enclosures.
> 
> I think people in general, including some of the people who have posted on this thread, need to relise that reptiles, snakes in particular, are not people, they are not dogs, cats, or anything else. They are snakes. They have extremely small brains, and live following very simple instincts and very simple thought processes.
> A snake is not "happy" or "sad" or "bored" a snake doesnt sit there and say "wow, what a crappy small enclosure" A basic rule coming from research is if a snake is eating, *****ting, shedding, and breeding, then it is physically healthy, and 'emotionally" healthy. A stressed snake which is not satisfied with its environment wont eat, it wont be healthy, and most of all, it wont breed.
> ...


 
Well said mate


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## abbott75 (May 10, 2009)

Jackrabbit said:


> At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"
> 
> Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.



Anthropomorphising reptiles does nothing but force the hobby to take giant steps back.


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## links (May 10, 2009)

Jackrabbit said:


> At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"
> 
> Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.


 

HMMMM OK then another case of anthropomorphism:lol:


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## JasonL (May 10, 2009)

I don't think I'd like to live my life under a rock, eat raw birds and mammals and have my skin crawling with worms either...but each to their own.


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## FAY (May 10, 2009)

Jackrabbit said:


> At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"
> 
> Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.




You would have to revert back to a 'natural history' and studies of species.
I have read or heard somwwhere a couple years ago, a university study was done on Pogona Barbata. The went no more that 100 metres in their whole life!!!

Someone correct me if I am wrong.


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## Jackrabbit (May 10, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> Anthropomorphising reptiles does nothing but force the hobby to take giant steps back.


 
Point taken. But saying they like something is plain wrong. If they liked it they would be curious about trying to get out. The fact that they brereb and don't appear stressed doesn't mean they would equally like something twice a big.

When they are not curled up hidding or sleeping they are out exploring their range for a meal. Their range is a lot larger than the enclosures we provide them with. What we currently provide them with, rack systems notwithstanding, is what has been condisered to be a reasonable size for us as hobbyists to house them in.

The fact that people get so upset about losing animals from cages only shows that it is not the animals that enjoys them it is us because it is a convenient size for us to keep and enjoy them in. Else people would say oh my snake has gone walk about, no worries it will be back soon because it is breeding and doesn't appear stressed.

That said I am not for the mandatory provision of too large enclosures because I probably couldn't provide the required space.


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## Aslan (May 10, 2009)

Quite simply, before they start enforcing cage sizes they should start enforcing hygiene and husbandry issues. As has been pointed out, a tub/rack system of adequate size is a far more suitable environment in this regard than a bedroom sized enclosure.

This mandatory enclosure size issues has been an issue on the PETA (and similar agencies) agenda for some time. Whilst I personally have my own opinions on what I consider to be a mandatory size for my animals, these vary substantially for each person, and vary considerably from the proposals I was informed of months (if not longer ago)...

To put it into perspective, my recollection of what PETA were requesting as a minimum enclosure size for one Bluetongue was a 2m x 2m floor space. This is ridiculous and unreasonable.

I would like to think that common sense will prevail, however, having worked for the NSW State Government for some time now you might have to excuse me for being sceptical...


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## Aslan (May 10, 2009)

Jackrabbit said:


> Point taken. But saying they like something is plain wrong.


 
How does it differ from saying they DON'T like something?


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## links (May 11, 2009)

Calm down everyone. After seeing the jewelled gecko thread, I have changed my mind about DECC. They can come in and have a look at my enclosure sizes, anytime, and ill just tell them that my perentie is a underwoodisaurus milli and my scrubby is a childrens python, the enclosure size will be perfect for those species under the new rules and the DECC wouldnt know any different:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Jay (May 11, 2009)

Personally I think PETA and related groups should have very little if any involvement in regulations.
In all likeliness these groups know these cages are excessive and for the most part impractical, and after the end result of fewer animals being kept merely because it goes against a core belief for them. 
The committee should be entirely made up of Herpetologists and Herpetoculturalists. They know what works naturally and what works in captivity without concerns.


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## mungus (May 11, 2009)

cement said:


> I think the DECC are screwed unless they take proper advice from experienced keepers who are fairly large breeders.
> 
> Which it does seem they are doing (going by the woma decision).
> If they come out with silly sizes like what this thread suggests, we are talking thousand's of cages, Hundreds of people. They will be swamped and overun with the mamoth impossible task.
> ...



The only problem with the most experienced keepers is that at times they might have their own interest at heart. Some keep snakes in " too small enclosures " IMO, the smaller the cage, the more cages they can keep, which equals to more snakes, more breeding pairs, more hatchies, more $$$ etc.
So I'm in favour for a 1000W x 700D x 1800H enclosure for diamonds, jungles etc.
I cant see the problem really, and its got to be more benifical to the snake.............surely.
Just my 2 bob's worth.......:lol:


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## wokka (May 11, 2009)

mungus said:


> The only problem with the most experienced keepers is that at times they might have their own interest at heart. Some keep snakes in " too small enclosures " IMO, the smaller the cage, the more cages they can keep, which equals to more snakes, more breeding pairs, more hatchies, more $$$ etc.
> So I'm in favour for a 1000W x 700D x 1800H enclosure for diamonds, jungles etc.
> I cant see the problem really, and its got to be more benifical to the snake.............surely.
> Just my 2 bob's worth.......:lol:



Just for interest that cage would be too small under the draft standards.


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## mungus (May 11, 2009)

wokka said:


> Just for interest that cage would be too small under the draft standards.



Well, what would be the correct size...................
I'm a bit slow on these things wokka.........:lol:


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## wokka (May 11, 2009)

1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT. It goes to show how opinions vary. Mungus, I assume when you posted you thought your suggested size would be heaps big enough, eh??


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## wokka (May 11, 2009)

If it were a guideline you would probably be close enough but as a standard you could get pinged for 100mm!


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## pythons73 (May 11, 2009)

So i wonder if they would go out off their way to ping someone for a measly 100mm,


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## buck (May 11, 2009)

This is going to be a major step backwards. How many keepers, including the bigger breeders, can house anything but modest collections if those sizes are the guidlines? It will basically equate to less animals being bred which will drive prices up and end up making it difficult for the next generation of hobbyists to be able to afford to purchase animals. 

Typical of DECC. They have gone years ignoring the calls of the hobby to put Womas on class 1 and as soon as they do they have to meddle some more. Someone new taken over in a position in authority there trying to make a name for themselves???

It is a given that most snakes in large spaces feel threatened. Why would this be considered to be beneficial to their health?


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## Ewan (May 11, 2009)

Aslan said:


> Quite simply, before they start enforcing cage sizes they should start enforcing hygiene and husbandry issues. As has been pointed out, a tub/rack system of adequate size is a far more suitable environment in this regard than a bedroom sized enclosure..........sceptical...



I agree with Aslan. 

There a whole lot of other issues that need some urgent attention regarding reptile welfare in captivity. 

In regards to snakes, IMO, inappropriately sized large enclosure can have negative impacts on the animals welfare.


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## Colin (May 11, 2009)

Oldbeard said:


> Its so typical of them to enforce another law onto us, when they have probably never kept a reptile in their lives...Let me guess ...a captive reptile needs enough room in his cage to exercise and run around and take the kiddies out to play football....
> Seriously though, how big are we talking???





gillsy said:


> NPWS are getting their act together.



I agree.. Its a totally ridiculous suggestion that shows just how much their advisors are ill informed. 

If the NPWS doesn't have anything constructive, helpful or anything that will significantly improve the keeping of reptiles... maybe these public servants should just do what public servants usually do best. (1) nothing (2) shuffle papers and look like they are actually doing something but in fact are still doing point (1) 


If NSW NPWS are "getting their act together" how come I still seem to have to wait not the supposed 5 working days, and not the usual 7 working days.. but now well over 14 days for the issue of import and export permits that cost me $20 each? Surely these permits can be done in no more time than 5-10 mins (and thats with one arm tied behind your back and blindfolded) 
How they can justify the value of these overpriced permits when you have to wait an eternity for them beats me. 

I'd even be content with paying the ridiculously high $20 fees per form if I received these forms in a reasonable time frame (like a few days) but I guess thats just too much to expect


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## -Peter (May 11, 2009)

The thing to do here is not start directing barbs at DECC and denigrating individuals. Why go out of your way to insult and belittle people who are employed to do what they do.
Get up and start lobbying. Get informed. Get involved and support the groups and individuals who are trying to put our case forward in a real and positive way.
Most of the comments on here would sway Joe Public to the DECC guidleines.
As serious practioners in the hobby we need to present and educated response not a reactionary one. We will lose otherwise.
Several posters already are doing just that.


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## lovey (May 11, 2009)

girdheinz said:


> Exhibited animals don't come under DECC but under DPI. DPI also have a new draft for their act.
> 
> Gird


 

I had a quick look at the new DPI draft for reptiles last week. I'll have to have a good read and compare to the old one.


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## longte (May 11, 2009)

My knowledge only comes from my snakes
But this is absolute rubbish about snakes not having personalities and various likes dislikes etc
Every snake I own is different to the others
Yes I realise snakes have small brains but I also know they dont operate only on the three F's
[fear food and finding a mate]
1000 x 500 x 2000mm is not a large enclosure for a 2000mm snake
It is large enough but not huge
Snakes, particularly arborial species, like to stretch out [whereas my waters couldn't care less and would probably be happy in anything]

Breeders dont need large enclosures as they are simply there to make money

Pet owners should look at the health and well being of their pets

If I hold my hand out I expect every snake I own to immediately climb up my arm
[the only exceptions would be after a good feed or just prior to shedding]
If they don't want to climb I look for what is wrong

So maybe my enclosures are too big
But my snakes are as happy as they can be


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## mungus (May 11, 2009)

wokka said:


> 1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT. It goes to show how opinions vary. Mungus, I assume when you posted you thought your suggested size would be heaps big enough, eh??



You got me wokka..............:lol:
But, I was only using roundfigures ....1050w x 810D x 1860 internally.......getting closer now..
But when my new herp room is up and running, my STD large enclosures with be
1200W x 600D x 1800H Approx. for my diamonds, jungles, darwins, bredli etc.
But to tell you the truth, I think these new laws regarding enclosure's will not get through.
Cheers,
Aleks.


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## Slateman (May 11, 2009)

longte said:


> My knowledge only comes from my snakes
> But this is absolute rubbish about snakes not having personalities and various likes dislikes etc
> Every snake I own is different to the others
> Yes I realise snakes have small brains but I also know they dont operate only on the three F's
> ...



I disagree with 70%t of what you are stating. I am saying this not because I like to start fight, so don't get upset. 
I will try to discover personalities in my collection. I noticed that some snakes do act differently than others, but did not know that this is due they personalities.


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## craig23 (May 11, 2009)

They miss identify species in a ballot that are in their care, they leave out Varanids on the new species list, they take weeks to approve an import permit which isnt even required in other states, I have applied for a new species code, which has taken over 3 months,... they clearly dont have the resourses or expertise to do what they already have on thier plate. 

Telling experienced keepers how to keep their animals that they cant even identify, should be not even in consideration.

My question is, how do we get our act together and fight this? plenty of talk about it, no one seems to be inviting people to get together?


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## Colin (May 11, 2009)

mungus said:


> my STD large enclosures.



I hate to think what exactly you've been up to with those STD (sexually transmitted diseases) enclosures mate :lol:


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## craig23 (May 11, 2009)

Lol


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## longte (May 11, 2009)

I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
Here is my answer

What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
Breeders must look after their animals perfectly, as breeding animals, and that is vastly different to looking after them as pets
If a breeder is not doing breeding to make money hes in the wrong business
Yes
Breeders usually look after their snakes better than most pet owners but we are talking totally different things here
A breeder wants to fit the maximum possible number of snakes into the smallest possible space for the shortest possible period of time
Human handling is minimised
Clinical procedures are emphasised

Pet owners should be doing things in a vastly different manner
....
AS far as snakes having personalities I also stand by that
Supposedly GTPs and Jungles are biters, and some are
but most are pussycats that come straight out of their hides and seem to enjoy human contact
That defines what I said perfectly
Some are biters and never tame down
Others welcome contact
Yet they are of the same species and similar in size
[if that isnt different personality what is it?]

Two of my waters [liasis mackloti], one male one female, love rolling in/ living in their pee and always stink a bit
The other lives in a hollow log and only goes near water when she wants to pee etc
[this is all in one enclosure] and all three are magnificent to handle

Two of my coastals spend all their time in the top areas of the enclosure yet the other stays down the bottom with the big olive most of the time

Before I take snakes out to a show I let them select who is doing what today
If a snake ducks away it means they dont want to go that day
Cool
I just pick up the one that wants to go out

My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????


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## craig23 (May 11, 2009)

Longte, I would suggest a snake roaming free around a lounge room while people are traffic TV/music is being played, is anything but a "happy" snake. Probably highly stressed. You are not a snake, and dont know whats going on in its head. 
Snakes by nature are secretive animals, they spend much of there lives hiding to stay out of sight of preditors. A snake does not have the capacity to know you and your family are not a threat, and thus would most likely be stressed the entire time it is roaming free in plane sight.

We know what we know of snakes by studying their behaviour in the wild. They certainly do not go out of there way to be in plane sight of bigger animals that could kill them.

Infact I could go as far as saying letting a snake roam free around a house while people are around, and the tv/stereo is blaring away, should be considered totally unacceptable husbandry technigue that is compramising the animals health.


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## Slateman (May 11, 2009)

longte said:


> I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
> Here is my answer
> 
> What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
> ...


 OK OK OK I am sorry. I just had no idea that my coastals stay in different area in the cage because of personality. My apology.
I thought that they choosing different hight to get right temperature they need.
But I am still learning and keeping my mind open to different view.


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## Ramsayi (May 11, 2009)

longte said:


> I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
> Here is my answer
> 
> What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
> ...



Everyone does things in different ways and no one way works better than another.

On the issue of keepers who use small enclosures to enable them to keep and breed more is a broad sweeping statement and is in a lot of cases plain wrong.We breed our animals but we are not into mass producing,never have been,never will be.Each of our adult animals are kept individually in 1200x800x600mm enclosures.We also rest our breeders every other year.

If I were to do as you are suggesting then I would be keeping them in much smaller enclosures that would enable me to keep more animals in any given space.You will find that even large breeders use the same or similar cage sizes,I can tell you that Simon Stone uses enclosures of those dimensions also. 

On the issue of "Evanescence or the blues" I aint touching that :lol:


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## Lozza (May 11, 2009)

longte said:


> Human handling is minimised
> Clinical procedures are emphasised


How is this a bad thing? I'd say reducing stress by less handling and clinical procedures such as good hygiene are not a bad thing.



longte said:


> Two of my waters [liasis mackloti], one male one female, love rolling in/ living in their pee and always stink a bit
> The other lives in a hollow log and only goes near water when she wants to pee etc
> [this is all in one enclosure] and all three are magnificent to handle


See above for good hygiene  Have you ever considered that the other might be stressed which is why it stays in the log?



longte said:


> My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
> When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????


:lol:


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## Colin (May 11, 2009)

longte said:


> Breeders dont need large enclosures as they are simply there to make money - that is just so wrong and and absolute garbarge.
> 
> But my snakes are as happy as they can be - and how do you know this sweeping generalization? Did little pinchy snuggle you? Or does he give you a smiley face when hes happy?





longte said:


> I My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
> When either Evanescence or the blues are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????



so what are you saying here? that your biggest snake is an Evanescence and Blues fan? Do they prefer the wiggles? or christian death? do your snakes have ears? Or do you just imagine they prefer different musical styles? Is the theme music to the twilight zone :lol: the song they dance to the most?


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## asis (May 11, 2009)

wokka said:


> 1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT. It goes to show how opinions vary. Mungus, I assume when you posted you thought your suggested size would be heaps big enough, eh??


 

800mm deep will be imposible for most and very impactical for all as it simply wont fit through standard doorways esp if the door can only be opened to 90 degrees. :shock:


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## GSXR_Boy (May 11, 2009)

longte said:


> My biggest snake virtually has the run of the lounge
> When either Evanescence are playing it wraps itself around one speaker, but not for other music????


 
Maybe it is trying to muffle that whiny skanks "music"??


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## Pujols (May 11, 2009)

I've heard that the minimum tank requirements will be 1 and 1/2 the length of the reptile. So imagine if you had a 12 foot Olive :S


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## Chris1 (May 11, 2009)

GSXR_Boy said:


> Maybe it is trying to muffle that whiny skanks "music"??



hahahahahahahahaha, nice one!


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## No-two (May 11, 2009)

longte said:


> I just was questioned about my comment on breeders enclosures
> Here is my answer
> 
> What I said was regarding the size of enclosures and I stand by that
> ...


 
Has to be the second or third stupidest post I've seen on aps.


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## -Matt- (May 11, 2009)

No-two said:


> Has to be the second or third stupidest post I've seen on aps.


 
First stupidest for me!


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## Daz_McC (May 11, 2009)

Some people appear to have an insight into the draft standards. Why don't those in the know stop toying with us and publish the complete set of minimum enclosure standards so that we can assess it for ourselves?


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## swaddo (May 11, 2009)

perhaps they are subject to an NDA? (Non Disclosure Agreement for those who dont know)


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## abbott75 (May 11, 2009)

There is an incredible amount of very new users on this thread. I don't know if I should be suspicious or not...


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## -Matt- (May 11, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> There is an incredible amount of very new users on this thread. I don't know if I should be suspicious or not...


 
Ive been thinking the exact same thing :?


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## Aslan (May 11, 2009)

abbott75 said:


> There is an incredible amount of very new users on this thread. I don't know if I should be suspicious or not...



I will point out the difference;

The respected, recognised people who have given their input in this thread have been speaking from a knowledgable perspective and are 'in the know' in regards to these proposals. Not too difficult as the idea has been thrown around with the authorities for at least the last 12 months...

The nonsense 'very new users' are criticising long established keepers about their conditions whilst housing carpets with olives next to waters that smell of stale piss...

...feel free to use this as a guideline into which posts to take on board and which to ignore...


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## mungus (May 11, 2009)

Aslan said:


> I will point out the difference;
> 
> The respected, recognised people who have given their input in this thread have been speaking from a knowledgable perspective and are 'in the know' in regards to these proposals. Not too difficult as the idea has been thrown around with the authorities for at least the last 12 months...
> 
> ...



Thats GOLD............:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## lemon (May 12, 2009)

*Minimum size*

Guidelines sound better than enforceable laws,
Don't Japanese people sleep in their drawers?
Are the National parks concerned with their race?
Surely a python will thrive in a similar space!
If your turtles kept in the toilet you're an obvious fool,
But it doesn't require its own olympic swim pool.
Animal welfare concerns should be common sense,
The RSPCA shouldn't have to jump your fence.
Healthy herps is what all of us desire,
The veterans on here know what they require.
Maybe a 10 year old with 30 bucks should pass a test,
Before they go pinning their licence on their chest.
Hobbo, Aslan or Mattsnake could write the quiz,
Their all well respected in the python biz.
Basic physiology knowledge would be on the rise,
More valuable than a set enclosure size.
Scientific opinions vary - heat lamps or hot rocks?
I haven't even got past boxer shorts or jocks?
 :lol::lol:


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## Colin (May 12, 2009)

Jason said:


> either way what is a suitable size for a jungle? especially when their range is 4-8ft? what about the size for hatchies etc?



what size enclosure is suitable for an adult (or near adult) jungle python? 
There is no one answer to this like x ft by x ft x x ft as there is considerable variation in this species of different locality size and of individual size. The 4 foot jungle would probably be fine in an enclosure that may be a little cramped for the 7foot plus jungle.. but if the big jungle doesnt move around the enclosure a lot usually.. it may actually be ok. 

I think the best person to answer this question is the person (the primary care giver) who has actually kept this species for a reasonable amount of time and in sufficent numbers and in locality variations to see some variation in individual characters, sized animals and needs. You could ask someone who has kept (for example) brown tree snakes but not jungles and they could give an answer, but probably not as exact as someone that owns, cares for and observes the animals in question, and has some experience with the species and their maintenance. 

Does this sound logical and reasonable? 

I could say 3 foot long x 2 foot high x 2 foot deep but there would be some jungles (big and small) that would (or could) just fall outside off the average cage size suggested. But thats a reasonable size in my opinion to start with and have as a "recomended" size but not legal size for jungle pythons. 

And if the animals kept in these size enclosures look exceptionally healthy and breed for the owner thats another pointer that they are reasonably happy with their environment. But there's always exceptions. 

Also bear in mind that sometimes two (a pair) can also be kept in the same sized enclosure that one is kept in. If you think about it.. its basically the same and if kept clean really doesn't make much difference if theres one or two (provided they get on well) in there. 

Cage size is really an open ended question that cant be nailed down to some exact figure to suit an academic. Theres a "range" of sizes of enclosures suitable dependiong on the individual animal, their specific size and their general species requirements.

what Im saying is I feel the best person to decide the requiremnts of an individual animal is the primary care giver provided they have some experience in the care and maintenance of the particular species and not some well meaning academic with little or no hands on experience..


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## nat0810 (May 12, 2009)

lemon said:


> Guidelines sound better than enforceable laws,
> Don't Japanese people sleep in their drawers?
> Are the National parks concerned with their race?
> Surely a python will thrive in a similar space!
> ...


 
You have way too much time on your hands mate. Better get some more herps to keep you busy 

May have to give em up if the requirements pass


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## Chimera (May 12, 2009)

With such a variance in behaviour for various locality types and individuals in the same species how can you justify a blanket rule? When moving growing pairs into a larger enclosure invariably one will respond worse to the other for the increased space. I have no doubts that some of my enclosures would not meet the sizes being discussed here, yet every year at their vet checkup EVERY one of my snakes is given a thumbs up from David Vella on overall health and body condition.

I understand that in many cases laws require literal rules to be properly enforced, but if there is no minimum yard size for dogs why define enclosure size for snakes? Government bodies have little trouble in identifying and laying charges for poorly kept mammalian pets, perhaps we need the same approach for reptilian pets. After all enclosure size will not prevent a neglected beardy from developing a metabolic bone disease.


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## Angharat (May 12, 2009)

Aslan said:


> I will point out the difference;
> The nonsense 'very new users' are criticising long established keepers about their conditions whilst housing carpets with olives next to waters that smell of stale piss...
> 
> ...feel free to use this as a guideline into which posts to take on board and which to ignore...



Play nice. The new users are not a homogenous mass. I doubt that the old users are either. 

This is the sort of thread that everyone should have a vested interest in. I'd like to know if the 900mm by 450mm by 450mm enclosure I've got my adult stimmie in will be declared substandard. If I ever decide to breed I'd also like to know what DECC deems acceptable for hatchies, etc.

No waters that smell like pee here.


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## Colin (May 12, 2009)

Angharat said:


> . I'd also like to know what DECC deems acceptable for hatchies,
> .



for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high 
as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.


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## Zoltag (May 12, 2009)

Hmm...

I must admit that I am very concerned about the idea of there being a legal rquirement for minimum enclosure size. Typically when legislation is passed that specifies very strict (draconian?) rules, there is a reason behind it - Either the department in question is looking to increase their importance / public profile with lots of high profile arrests / court cases, or they are targeting specific individuals who are not currently breaking any laws (think Al Capone ).

Either way, having rules that are excessive (as people are saying these dimensions will be) opens itself to abuse. Anyone who thinks that they will be alright and these laws really arent designed to catch them, but to protect the animals welfare is naive, to put it simply.

On the other hand, whinging about it in a forum is not the answer. What we should be doing is getting a coordinated focus group together to prepare something challenging the way the new draft is being put together (specifically for the DECC to be more transparent in what it is doing and allowing for a wider scope public consultation process). This needs to be done in a mature, professional manner and then submitted to Peter Garrett and if there is no response to that, then submitted to Greg Hunt. Combine that with a paper based petition of sufficient size and questions will start to flow in parliament and we may see some action happening around it.

If not, there is always the possibility of passing the same information to local MPs and hope that someone becomes interested enough in whats happening to kick up a stink.

If anyone is interested in getting together over this, PM me


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## FAY (May 12, 2009)

I think you will find the the committee that has been formed are looking at all these aspects that will come up regarding cage sizes.


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## ShaunMorelia (May 12, 2009)

Colin said:


> for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high
> as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.


 
if that was to be done then i'd hate to see what a scrubby or olive needs to be housed in....jeeze!


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## longte (May 12, 2009)

The answer is simple

Just spend the bit of money to get a demonstrators licence and then you work under DPI instead of DECC


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## Slateman (May 12, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> Everyone does things in different ways and no one way works better than another.
> 
> On the issue of keepers who use small enclosures to enable them to keep and breed more is a broad sweeping statement and is in a lot of cases plain wrong.We breed our animals but we are not into mass producing,never have been,never will be.Each of our adult animals are kept individually in 1200x800x600mm enclosures.We also rest our breeders every other year.
> 
> ...



So do I my enclosures are 1200x800x600mm and I can see my snakes smiling


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## nat0810 (May 12, 2009)

I'm with Zoltag. something from the general herpers in writing to either DECC or direct to parliment should be organised.

Fair enough, the committe is made up of herpers, but if all the APS'ers were to get a petition or something going, it would strengthen the case put forward by the committee. I see the strength in numbers principal working on this issue.

It may work it may not. But better to have tried and failed, than to not try at all.


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## peterjohnson64 (May 12, 2009)

Daz_McC said:


> Some people appear to have an insight into the draft standards. Why don't those in the know stop toying with us and publish the complete set of minimum enclosure standards so that we can assess it for ourselves?



The answer to this is quite simple Daz. We were given the draft standards in a document that had the word "Confidential" written all over it. Unfortunately, those of us that have seen the proposal are not at liberty to disclose what is in it as we would then be breaching confidentiality. Any hope we had of being part of the process would be shot if we breached that.

Be comfortable in that knowledge however that the depatment is monitoring this thread. Hence Peter's very wise recommendation to only attack the issue and not the people involved.

And someone mentioned going to thier local MP. That is a great idea but not yeat as nothing formal has been proposed. Theya re stil in the "design" stage/

Also, to the person who keeps an olive with their carpets - hopefully I can find a pic that will be very useful to you. Olives eat carpets you know.

I will now leave the discussion to the rest of you.


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## peterjohnson64 (May 12, 2009)

Oh, and John Mostyn just told me (via email) that MIranda Gott will be talking at Hawkesbury Herps on Friday 12th June on this very subject. Not much sense in complaining here if you can't make the effort to get to the horses mouth.


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## Zoltag (May 12, 2009)

peterjohnson64 said:


> The answer to this is quite simple Daz. We were given the draft standards in a document that had the word "Confidential" written all over it. Unfortunately, those of us that have seen the proposal are not at liberty to disclose what is in it as we would then be breaching confidentiality. Any hope we had of being part of the process would be shot if we breached that.
> 
> Be comfortable in that knowledge however that the depatment is monitoring this thread. Hence Peter's very wise recommendation to only attack the issue and not the people involved.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you're "in the know", so to speak...

Are you able to speak to DECC and find out whether there will be a more general public consultation process coming up, or at the least find out when the DECC plans to be making the draft available for general public consumption?


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## Zoltag (May 12, 2009)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Oh, and John Mostyn just told me (via email) that MIranda Gott will be talking at Hawkesbury Herps on Friday 12th June on this very subject. Not much sense in complaining here if you can't make the effort to get to the horses mouth.



Sounds like that could be interesting - Unfortunately I have no way of getting there...


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## Jay (May 12, 2009)

Colin said:


> for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high
> as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.


Yet Wokka posted this about carpets.


wokka said:


> 1000w x 800d x 1800h would comply with the DRAFT.



So either somebody has unreliable information or DECC has no idea which is the larger type


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## ShaunMorelia (May 12, 2009)

Jay said:


> So either somebody has unreliable information or DECC has no idea which is the larger type


 Somebody has unreliable information.
Everyone should just relax and wait for the info to come out, if it ever does.


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## coz666 (May 12, 2009)

i think most of us know if we have ample space for our herps.
ive been thinking about this and maybe we arent looking at the real picture..... what if????
they are under pressure to allow herps to be sold commercially, which they oppose
everyone pushes for retailers to be able to sell herps ...
if they pass this first, it makes it near impossible for a retailer to sell herps. which solves the problem.
if you think they have enough man power to hassle the average herpist, you are mistaken.
but if you make yourself get attention, by bad deals and lowsy herps you will be on their to do list for sure.


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## FAY (May 12, 2009)

The_S_Word said:


> Somebody has unreliable information.
> Everyone should just relax and wait for the info to come out, if it ever does.



Exactly.


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## peterjohnson64 (May 12, 2009)

I am only "in the know" because I am very active in helping out at my local herp society. Each herp society is aware of what is going on. And I would also guess that all the other herp societies are like ours and in desperate need of more people to help run them. They are not a closed shop. Get involved and you will not need to read all of these threads most of which are full of totally incorrect information.


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## Colin (May 12, 2009)

Colin said:


> for antaresia theres talk of having hatchie enclosures 6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high
> as minimum acceptable standard for one hatchie.





Jay said:


> Yet Wokka posted this about carpets.
> 
> So either somebody has unreliable information or DECC has no idea which is the larger type


thats GOLD  ummmm :lol: I was only joking 

geez I expected people would have realised that by the absolutely ridiculous size enclosure for one hatchie of 
6 feet long x 3 feet deep x 3 feet high.. but then again  that does sound a nice sized hatchie tub.. 
wonder if you can get this size in a 60 tub rack? 

I was going to add at the bottom "joking" but thought nah.. *even *on APS no one is going to believe that.... I guess I was mistaken  

sorry for leading you up the garden path Jay.. lucky its not true otherwise you'd need to rent a factory just to house one clutch of hatchies


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## Jay (May 12, 2009)

Colin said:


> I was going to add at the bottom "joking" but thought nah.. *even *on APS no one is going to believe that.... I guess I was mistaken



With people in the thread believing their snake likes a particular band, somebody believing those cage sizes to be legit wouldn't surprise me at all haha.
Was joking too about DECC not knowing which is the larger type. I mean at least one person down there must know what species is what (though they're hiding awfully well)


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## wokka (May 12, 2009)

peterjohnson64 said:


> I am only "in the know" because I am very active in helping out at my local herp society. Each herp society is aware of what is going on. And I would also guess that all the other herp societies are like ours and in desperate need of more people to help run them. They are not a closed shop. Get involved and you will not need to read all of these threads most of which are full of totally incorrect information.



Like Peter said, if you support your local herp society they can suppport you. I will be at to-nights SOFAR meeting if anyone wishs to discuss the issue, and yes I am one of the chosen few who is "in the know"!


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## Lozza (May 12, 2009)

wokka said:


> Like Peter said, if you support your local herp society they can suppport you.


Assuming everyone has a _local _herp society  I refuse to drive a 6hr round trip to my "local" herp meetings lol


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## swaddo (May 12, 2009)

lozza said:


> Assuming everyone has a _local _herp society  I refuse to drive a 6hr round trip to my "local" herp meetings lol


indeed, my closest "local herp club" is interstate and wont be "in the know"


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## Slateman (May 12, 2009)

I am not one of the lucky few who have this *super secret confidential* information on this subject.
LOL. I can only assume what is happening.

To me all this looks like DECC have a proposal from an animal protective group, and are looking to sort things out the way which will please most people (or voters?). 
I hate politics and so far our existing system worked well. There were always some cases where animals were abused, but this will happen anyway under new legislation.
My problem is that if the new rules will be too strict and hard to follow, people will stop applying for licences to avoid DECC inspector visits. All this will bring back bad practice of herp keeping from past, and people will deal with animals illegally. When they start illegal activity with local animals, they will not hesitate to introduce exotics to collections.
By my opinion a lot of good work would be undone.
I know that people always complain about authorities, but so far NSW officers did pretty well under the circumstances they had to deal with. It would be a shame to spoil the past effort they made.
Some how I strongly believe that all this will result with a reasonable outcome for this reason.

I tried to express my opinion in the best Slateman's English I could. Sorry for bad grammar.


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## peterjohnson64 (May 15, 2009)

Slatey I dont think grammar is your issue mate 

Also, many years ago I was also a long way from my nearest herp society. Then we set up Mac Herps. Sure, it was just a blue tongue and bearded dragon club for a while but we are now being accepted as a mainstream herp group.

And I think you will also fond that the only organisation that put a formal submission to DECC to reclassify womas was Mac Herps. We had heard "rumours" for years that they were moving to class one but no one knew of anything concrete. So a formal submission went in and was addressed at an NAKCC meeting and then viola!

It is actually very easy to be at the forefront of herp regulation in NSW if you want to be.


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## Slateman (May 15, 2009)

I agree Peter. There is always lot of complains and criticism , but not to much constructive action to fallow.


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## PythonRob (May 15, 2009)

In my opinion.............

Everybody has their own thoughts, concerns, fears.

What about the welfare of reptiles? This should be the prime factor here.

All this talk about 'going underground', what a load of BS. Who wants to keep reptiles off license anymore, what value would they be if you ever wanted to sell them.

I am one of the first license holders from the amnesty in 1995 and remember how glad I was to get a licence from NPWS since not being allowed to have reptiles for about 10 years before that. 

During some 20 years of reptile keeping I have seen some great collectors and I have seen some shockers. Cramped & Dirty cages, some with piles of poop and skins in them that have not been removed for weeks/months, even seen a large keeper with exhibitors license with dead reptiles in their cages and outdoor pits - disgusting.

My doors are always open to DECC if they wish to inspect, I have nothing to hide and glad to hold a license.

Personally (in my opinion again), I would like to get rid of some of the people who do not properly care for their reptiles from this hobby.


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## pythonmum (May 15, 2009)

It is very sad to see animals in poor conditions. A friend of mine has snakes which have a serious build up of faeces and sheds, but he doesn't see the need to clean as soon as messes are made. IMO if a shed is in the enclosure for more than 24 hours, you are not doing the right thing by checking that it is complete. The best time to remove retained slough is right away! As for enclosure sizes, my _Antaresia_ are in a 4x2x2 foot enclosure and they use every bit of the space, including the two climbing branches. Not sure what the recommendations for _Morelia _will be, but I checked my Darwin enclosure size with Simon Stone, so I hope I'll be right.


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## Slateman (May 15, 2009)

PythonRob said:


> In my opinion.............
> 
> Everybody has their own thoughts, concerns, fears.
> 
> ...



Size of cage will not improve cleanliness, just opposite.


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## shonny (May 15, 2009)

I hope everything works out good for your guys down there...I can only imagine you are all stressed about these changes,, I am glad though that I live in Qld our system is far less complicated then you guys..GOOD LUCK for a reasonable outcome for you all.


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## Slateman (May 22, 2009)

Well I heard lot of new rumours and maybe there will be lot of upset people if things will not work out the right way for us.
This issue is really big concern at the moment. Maybe there is no good idea to pay your license in advance in NSW.


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## -Matt- (May 22, 2009)

So your saying its looking pretty likely Slatey? Damn Ive just spent a fortune on all new enclosures and racks too...


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## Simple (May 22, 2009)

shonny said:


> I hope everything works out good for your guys down there...I can only imagine you are all stressed about these changes,, I am glad though that I live in Qld our system is far less complicated then you guys..GOOD LUCK for a reasonable outcome for you all.



If these laws are passed in NSW, it sets a precedence for the other states to follow. There would be people in every state considering the same laws.. This could be very serious for the hobby.


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## Ramsayi (May 22, 2009)

It does seem that the minimum cage sizes that NPWS are considering have been grossly over stated.Lets just hope the committee that was formed to negotiate a positive outcome for all hobbyists decides to sit down with the DECC and offer some valuable input.God knows they have had long enough to do just that.


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## Slateman (May 22, 2009)

Simple said:


> If these laws are passed in NSW, it sets a precedence for the other states to follow. There would be people in every state considering the same laws.. This could be very serious for the hobby.



Exactly right Simple. NSW is just first step. Other states will fallow.
I strongly feel that all this is for the certain animal liberation group to stop people to keep wildlife as pets. This is just smart way to push this agenda.


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## Slateman (May 22, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> It does seem that the minimum cage sizes that NPWS are considering have been grossly over stated.Lets just hope the committee that was formed to negotiate a positive outcome for all hobbyists decides to sit down with the DECC and offer some valuable input.God knows they have had long enough to do just that.



problem is that there is large, well organized, rich lobby pushing this ridiculous change, 
Badly organized reptile keepers in NSW will be last to consider in final decision.

As I know government officials, they will be looking for problem going away. That will not look well for reptile hobbyists in this state. We don't have powerful voice. Not at all.


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## Ramsayi (May 22, 2009)

Slateman said:


> problem is that there is large, well organized, rich lobby pushing this ridiculous change,
> Badly organized reptile keepers in NSW will be last to consider in final decision.
> 
> As I know government officials, they will be looking for problem going away. That will not look well for reptile hobbyists in this state. We don't have powerful voice. Not at all.



As I understand things the minimum caging requirements are being pushed by the likes of the RSPCA as a direct result of petshops in NSW pushing to be allowed to trade in reptiles.Basically if minimum requirements are not set then the RSPCA won't endorse petshops selling reptiles.

Reptile keepers in this state had been asked to provide input by NPWS thats why a member from each herp society formed the current committee.

At the end of the day like it or not NPWS will most likley legislate for minimum cage sizes.The question is do the committee try and block such changes or do they sit down with the DECC and try and negotiate an outcome that everyone can live with?


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## FAY (May 22, 2009)

We can only hope that common sense prevails Rams and the outcome is the latter.


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## funcouple (May 22, 2009)

common sence. what is that Fay?
i think herp committees need to work with DECC and find some common sence that will lead fair and sensible enclosure sizes. i dont think this is something that can be ignored and hope that it will go away. we have to be seen as being pro active and wanting the best for our animals, or the animal liberation groups along with the RSPCA will make it so difficult that it will be impossible to house our animals


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## BJC-787 (May 22, 2009)

i have a mate with an exhibitors licence
and when he was first going for it they came and inspected his enclosures for size and they said some hatchling childrens in small tubs were in to small of an enclosure,
the main thing that was the problem was that the book said they get to 1m long than the enclosure should be this big wether it is a hatchling or adult.


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## Jay (May 23, 2009)

Any idea on the penalties they're proposing for not meeting cage sizes? Specifically hatchlings.


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## Ramsayi (May 23, 2009)

BJC-787 said:


> i have a mate with an exhibitors licence
> and when he was first going for it they came and inspected his enclosures for size and they said some hatchling childrens in small tubs were in to small of an enclosure,
> the main thing that was the problem was that the book said they get to 1m long than the enclosure should be this big wether it is a hatchling or adult.



The DECC does not have duristriction over exhibitors.



Jay said:


> Any idea on the penalties they're proposing for not meeting cage sizes? Specifically hatchlings.



As far as I am aware cage/tub sizes for hatchlings and sub adults are perfectly reasonable.I have no information regarding penalties at this stage.


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## Boondocker (May 23, 2009)

Bushfire said:


> Its based loosely around a few documents with Victoria's Code of Practice being one of them. The big difference being that Victoria's one is only a guideline whereas the NSW one will be a law.


 
G'day where does it say the minimum cage sizes are only guidlines in Victoria's Code of Practice? I couldn't find that anywhere in there. I hope you;re right.

It appears Slitherins racks are indeed too small for most pythons according to the minimum size requirements.listed the Victoria Code. Even Slitherins largest "boa" tub is not tall enough for woma pythons accordng to the Code.


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## wokka (May 23, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> The DECC does not have duristriction over exhibitors.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I am aware cage/tub sizes for hatchlings and sub adults are perfectly reasonable.I have no information regarding penalties at this stage.



I am not sure that that is correct. One of the problems is that the draft has no distinction between sub adults and adults, so anything beyond hatchling must be kept in an adult size cage


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## wokka (May 23, 2009)

Boondocker said:


> G'day where does it say the minimum cage sizes are only guidlines in Victoria's Code of Practice? I couldn't find that anywhere in there. I hope you;re right.
> 
> It appears Slitherins racks are indeed too small for most pythons according to the minimum size requirements.listed the Victoria Code. Even Slitherins largest "boa" tub is not tall enough for woma pythons accordng to the Code.



From a legal point of view guidelines would be interpretted as rules in the absence of rules. They are therefore just as important to get right. 
It is difficult to link cage size to species as there is great size variations within species. Adult Womas can vary from 1-2.5 meters in length and say 1-5 kg in weight.


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## BJC-787 (May 23, 2009)

sorry it was the ones that hand out the exhibitors licence (dpi i think)


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## Slateman (May 23, 2009)

Well looks like we will know more next week. I just hope that my concern was wrong.


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## Ramsayi (May 23, 2009)

wokka said:


> From a legal point of view guidelines would be interpretted as rules in the absence of rules. They are therefore just as important to get right.
> It is difficult to link cage size to species as there is great size variations within species. Adult Womas can vary from 1-2.5 meters in length and say 1-5 kg in weight.



Again as far as I am aware the current proposal does not take juvs into account,as it stands at the moment hatchlings and adults are covered.

Being that you are on the committee and have presumably read the draft and since you used womas as an example would you like to share with others what the min cage sizes are for that species bearing in mind that womas are being classed as a medium sized python?

The person trying to formulate this proposal has been hired on an 18 month contract which expires in December,my concern is what happens if he runs out of time as a result of the refusal of the committee to engage him in the consultation process?

At the end of the day the committee is representing the various herp societies around the state so why are members being kept in the dark as to how the committee is operating?


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## Lozza (May 23, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> At the end of the day the committee is representing the various herp societies around the state so why are members being kept in the dark as to how the committee is operating?


Definitely agree with you there! Why does it have to be kept secret??? Seems a bit silly to me...


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## Slateman (May 23, 2009)

lozza said:


> Definitely agree with you there! Why does it have to be kept secret??? Seems a bit silly to me...



I agree strongly.
Public should not be kept in dark. After all we pay for all this in our taxes.:x


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## Simple (May 23, 2009)

Unforteatly when it come to government they like to give the impression that sittng down and talking works. Utimately government wants problems to go away. So generally who is creating the biggest problem wins (just to make it go away). I like to think we live in a democacy but the annoying minority always seems to come out on top and expecting common sense from a government department does not happen often. If an unrealistic cage size is approved there are going to be alot of new cages being built or a lot of homeless snakes. I hope that the committee that is going into bat for the reptile owners is on the ball.


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## Jason (May 23, 2009)

Well i have had a very interesting discussion with a highly regarded member of one of the reptiles societies in regards to this topic. I was told that the general sizes of the enclosures they are looking at are fine and reasonable needing only a little recomendations from the keeping comity.
Basically large carpets need an enclosure a touch larger then a 4x2x2 so with the work of the group that is consulting with NPWS im sure they will come down to the generally excepted 4x2x2. GTP and RSP was somthing like 2.5x2x2, beardies also need about a 4x2x2. from what i gather alot of the talk we are hearing about the sizes being extremely large are fabricated crap essentially so the few members of the group can continue to push there interests, ie. NO regulations cause it doesnt suit them.

from what i can understand this group was put together to help and work with DECC and NPWS to come up with the sizes but from what i gather there is a couple of people that instead of actually helping come to an agreement they are just saying NO to any sizes. by doing this it would imo appear to be causing more issues and seems they only have there own interests in mind. i dont know who the members are or what there backgrounds are but i hope that they can come up with an agreement that is good to us all and only hope that the people in the group that are just being difficult by opposing the issue stop worying about there own agendas (which possibly may be that they themselves dont satisfy the new sizes) and remember they represent me and everyother member of the herp comunity!

If they cant come up with an agreement it will likely just be past onto another government group who wont give a stuff what the keepers want. 

for those that are apart of the group that is consulting with the DECC etc, im not attacking you. what i hear may be wrong but what is bad is that me and everyone else on here is relying on what we are hearing and we dont really know what is fact and what is fiction.... im just stating what iv heard.


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## Lozza (May 23, 2009)

So Jason have you heard what the antaresia sizes are? I'll be peeved if slitherin racks are considered too small...
Also are geckos going to be included in the size regulations?


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## fine_jungles (May 23, 2009)

God help help us all :lol: interesting...4x2x2 for a antaresia :lol:


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## pythonmum (May 23, 2009)

fine_jungles said:


> God help help us all :lol: interesting...4x2x2 for a antaresia :lol:


That's the size I have for a pair of _Antaresia_, so I'm happy. If Jason's info is correct, sizes are very reasonable.


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## -Matt- (May 23, 2009)

Jason those sizes are completely reasonable if this information proves to be true. Be intersting to know if racks are going to be outlawed though.


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## wokka (May 24, 2009)

Remember that the Draft is a point to work from and not the final Code.The suggestion is that 1 or 2 Anteresia require 2000 cm2 or say 40cm x 50 cm. There are slitherin tubs of that size but of couse there is no reference to particular brands, nor is there suggestions that racks be banned.I have seen collections of 500 plus snakes in a 100m2 biuilding with racks and cages which all comply to the code. The problem relate to some specific detail not across the board.
It is true that some people seem to be against rules for rules sake. I supposed people generally dont like change.


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## beeman (May 24, 2009)

The problem i see here is that if there is to much decent from the consultation processby the herp comunity in regards to minumum sizes for different species you will end up getting what is imposed on you by others in that process who dont have an intimate knowledge of reptiles.
I have seen this sort of thing happen in other more valuable industries with disasterous results.
The main thing is to be a pro-active part of the consultation process, Constructive 
arguements go far further than refusal of any proposal put up for consideration

To be blunt you either play the game and end up with sizing you can work with or it WILL be forced upon you without the herp comunity input.


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## Jason (May 24, 2009)

Mattsnake said:


> Jason those sizes are completely reasonable if this information proves to be true. Be intersting to know if racks are going to be outlawed though.



exactly what i think! they are reasonable and fair. im not sure if these sizes are exact but if what i hear is correct i see no prob with the sizes. as i mentioned, if a few on the comity are being difficult it could be devastating to us. if this gets passed onto the DPI we're screwed imo. unless we get an agreement then it is likely this could happen. 
The group representing us as a whole need to hear what we are saying and wethere they comply or not they need to remember they represent us all! If the DECC asked me if a 4x2x2 was good for a bhp or large carpets, and if a 3x2x2 was good for a medium carpet, ie GTP, RSP, some jungles and darwins and womas i would say yes... so if these are the proposed sizes whats the issue?

i guess one of my questions is, why have so many of us been lied to about the proposed sizes? why when i asked what sizes are they talking about was i told "you dont want to know, they are rediculous"? these are minimums they are talking about hence a 40 x 50 cm enclosure would be minimum for a pair of antareisa as wokka said, whats wrong with that, i personally keep them in larger but as a minimum that is fine by me.

Those that are part of this group can i ask what some of the issues are that is causing issues? if we know whats the hold up we may be able to put OUR opinions forward, that is the idea anyway, to represent us.


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## Boondocker (May 24, 2009)

Jason said:


> If the DECC asked me if a 4x2x2 was good for a bhp or large carpets, and if a 3x2x2 was good for a medium carpet, ie GTP, RSP, some jungles and darwins and womas i would say yes... so if these are the proposed sizes whats the issue?


 
Two foot tall cage mandated for a woma? My opinion is that is prohibitively tall.


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## Jason (May 24, 2009)

wokka said:


> Remember that the Draft is a point to work from and not the final Code.The suggestion is that 1 or 2 Anteresia require 2000 cm2 or say 40cm x 50 cm. There are slitherin tubs of that size but of couse there is no reference to particular brands, nor is there suggestions that racks be banned.I have seen collections of 500 plus snakes in a 100m2 biuilding with racks and cages which all comply to the code. The problem relate to some specific detail not across the board.
> It is true that some people seem to be against rules for rules sake. I supposed people generally dont like change.



i can understand not wanting rules but from what iv now heard the sizes are reasonable so why argue them, just except them and move on with the hobby. personally anyone that keeps 2 antaresia in anything smaller then 40 x 50 is wrong hence it is a good minimum. i think if they managed to get the requirements down to the floor areas of a 2x2, 3x2 and a 4x2 no one would mined. a 4x2 is roughly 7200cm2 the large slitherin racks are about 8500cm2 hence the rack systems would still comply.

may i ask what the 'specific details across the board' are and relate to?

in regards to 'some people seem to be against rules for rules sake,' are they forgetting that they are not just representing themselves? this situation relates to every member of this forum, the other forums, every reptile society and anyone that is considering getting into herps?

would these new rules have some implication to them becoming available in shops and the fear of them going commercial becoming an issue? i would imagen that if they become commercial then some people would obviously be deemed comercial hence any new rules relating to the comercial side of things would possibly apply to them? this could only be an issue if members of the comity are in a position to infact be deemed commercial and that they dont comply? this would again come back to my original point that they represent us all and not just their own interests.


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## Slateman (May 24, 2009)

Is this possible? 

to the comment ......what iv now heard the sizes are reasonable......

What you heard is exactly my problem. things are discussed behind close doors and some people are getting proposals marked CONFIDENTIAL. 

I hope that CIA from united states is not involved. TOP SECRET full stop.
Not publishing the proposal to all of us is wrong. We should have right to express our concerns. That is what I don't like about all this.

And Jason just remember one thing. What you heard could be different to what can happen.


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## Bushfire (May 24, 2009)

Boondocker said:


> G'day where does it say the minimum cage sizes are only guidlines in Victoria's Code of Practice? I couldn't find that anywhere in there. I hope you;re right.
> 
> It appears Slitherins racks are indeed too small for most pythons according to the minimum size requirements.listed the Victoria Code. Even Slitherins largest "boa" tub is not tall enough for woma pythons accordng to the Code.


 
When that Code was released, they were handed out to those attending the VHS meeting. To be honest this was the first I heard about it (no discussion/consultations) and was told at the meeting that they are only to be used as a guideline and not to worry too much of the min cage sizes, its intention was to help guide new comers to keeping reptiles and not as an enforcement tool, wildlife officers wont be going around with rulers etc etc. I questioned this further with a wildlife officer while they were conducting a general inspection as I had quite a few stuff in tubs that wouldn't comply with the min size and was told directly they are only guidelines and that there was no penalty units attached to the code, so even if you didn't comply there is no punishment. Things may well have changed since but I still haven't heard of anyone getting into trouble for too small of a cage in Victoria. Looking at it now, if it was enforcible there would of been alot of pet shops and breeders in trouble over it and just maybe it would have helped clean up alot of Pet Shops in Victoria and their general image.



The problem with the current situation in NSW is there is too much smoke and mirrors. Instead of hiding behind the 'we cant tell you as its not for public release' statement, if someone actually comes out and says this is exactly what min sizes they are proposing then all this confusion and fear can stop, they dont have to release the whole document. Till then its all rumours and worrying. They may well turn out reasonable and fair but as it stands we wont know till its too late.


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## Jason (May 24, 2009)

Slateman said:


> Not publishing the proposal to all of us is wrong. We should have right to express our concerns. That is what I don't like about all this.
> 
> And Jason just remember one thing. What you heard could be different to what can happen.



i agree its wrong, we should be able to see it.



Jason said:


> what i hear may be wrong but what is bad is that me and everyone else on here is relying on what we are hearing and we dont really know what is fact and what is fiction.


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## scutatus (May 24, 2009)

Let's see what the DECC come up with when we front then with reason and experience. I dot think we have a lot to worry about at this point. Just a show of strength from our respected and experienced allays should hopefully help iron out some of the issues.


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## -Peter (May 24, 2009)

The arguement is against the blanket introduction of generalised enclosures sizes to fit generic groups. Not individual species. There is also the implication made by DECC that the cage sizes are not guidleines. That if they are included they will be enforcable.


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## Lozza (May 24, 2009)

-Peter said:


> The arguement is against the blanket introduction of generalised enclosures sizes to fit generic groups. Not individual species.


Well that could be interesting considering that DECC have stimsoni listed under Liasis, right next to olivaceus


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## chilli (May 25, 2009)

why are the drafts marked 'confidential' - is that to restrict any public input?

how did they come up with the areas anyway like 4square metres for 1 water dragon?

and the floor area for 1 or 2 animals when species such as Egernia depressa that live in colonies, need the same space for say 10 animals as 1 and do better with being kept in a colony.

the turtle tank size may be ok for adult turtles but a hatchling expansa or piggy doesn't need 6 cubic metres and baby piggies don't need any land area, but this is required?

some two-headed in-bred public servant trying to make his mark on the hobby to the detriment of everyone who keeps herps.(just venting)

regarding the sizes, why don't they accommodate the existing marketed caging. like where they require 4000sq cm, which is just picked out of the air anyway, accept 3600 which would be the standard 60x60 instead of 63x64 to get your 4000. there would be less drama if their sizes fitted conventional caging sizes.


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## Ramsayi (May 25, 2009)

chilli said:


> why are the drafts marked 'confidential' - is that to restrict any public input?
> 
> how did they come up with the areas anyway like 4square metres for 1 water dragon?
> 
> ...




Have you actually seen the draft? You may want to revise the figure of
4sqm for water dragons


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## wokka (May 25, 2009)

chilli said:


> how did they come up with the areas anyway like 4square metres for 1 water dragon?
> 
> .



It is amazing how with all the hysteria people assume the worst . Where did you come up with figures like 4 square meters? 4000cm2 is actually four tenths of a square meter or 40cm x 100cm.


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## MissHiss (May 25, 2009)

Wokka... If i was to order 0.4mtrs x 1.0mtrs of tiles i would end up with 0.4mtrs of tiles, (or half a pack) not even enough to line half a standard shower cubicle floor  not 4.0mtrs2 or even 4000cm2...........................
4mtrs2 is in simple terms 1.0mtrs or 1000cm x 4mtrs or 4000cm or 2mtrs x 2mtrs


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## MissHiss (May 25, 2009)

Hi Greebo, If the 3rd dimension comes into it, that is classed as cubic mtrs  as in how you would order a skip bin


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## Slateman (May 25, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> Have you actually seen the draft? You may want to revise the figure of
> 4sqm for water dragons




Whoo that is big.
4square meters is area 4 metre long and 1 meter wide.


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## Ramsayi (May 25, 2009)

Slateman said:


> Whoo that is big.
> 4square meters is area 4 metre long and 1 meter wide.



Yes that is big.It is also wrong.
As Wokka already wrote 4000cm2 is 0.4 square meter.


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## Colin (May 25, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> At the end of the day the committee is representing the various herp societies around the state so why are members being kept in the dark as to how the committee is operating?



Exactly. No wonder there is concerns when the whole situation is being treated like some cloak and dagger situation where the general herp community is being kept in the dark by the committe that are supposed to represent them and also the DECC.

Why is their no transparency in what negotiations and progress are being made? If its all above board, then why the need for this secrecy??

Who are these people on the committee that are representing reptile keepers? Can we have a full list of names and their affilliations please? And also their qualifications to make recommendations concerning the keeping and care of reptiles in captivity? 

For example if they are a private reptile hobbyist, a professional herpetologist etc or do they represent a commercial business interest? I think that we, as the people being represented by this group should at least have the right to the names and affiliations (if any) of the people that are supposed to be representing us.

I know theres some members on here who are on this committee, and would appreciate (as Im sure others would also) some information of whose actually on this group (names, affiliation, qualifications) that are representing us please. thanks. 

I'd also like to know if possible (if anyone does know) who exactly are the people who are advising the DECC on their side of this situation on the appropriate enclosure sizes etc? And also their qualifications to make these recommendations concerning the keeping and care of reptiles in captivity? 

I've been worried this whole proposal may be influenced by animal liberationists or similar political lobbyists who dont like us keeping animals anyway. Why is the whole process being done in secret and without any transparency of whats going on etc? 

This secrecy only adds to concerns that something is going on they all dont want us to know about.


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## Zoltag (May 25, 2009)

peterjohnson64 said:


> I am only "in the know" because I am very active in helping out at my local herp society. Each herp society is aware of what is going on. And I would also guess that all the other herp societies are like ours and in desperate need of more people to help run them. They are not a closed shop. Get involved and you will not need to read all of these threads most of which are full of totally incorrect information.



Being involved is a nice dream for me - Unfortunately I dont have much time to call my own at the moment and having to rely on PT to get anywhere in Sydney, well I'm sure that more than one person here would be able to sympathise with that 

What I find really irritating is the number of people who say that everything will be alright and just to wait. The big problem I have with that is that by waiting for 'something' to happen means waiting for the legislation to be passed - And by the time it is passed, it is pretty much too late, as it is a lot easier to make changes before legislation is passed.


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## wokka (May 25, 2009)

I am representing SOFAR and they are not being kept in the dark. I have discussed the issues at a couple of meeting and with the SOFAR committee. Any SOFAR members are welcome to contact me if they have concerns.


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## jamgo (May 25, 2009)

How do other people find out what's going on ? Not everyone lives near a society or has zoltag said not everyone has the time to be involved .


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## Ramsayi (May 25, 2009)

The committee is made up of a representative from each of the herp societies as well as a few well known herpetologists. How else are the DECC supposed to engage with hobbyists?


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## jamgo (May 25, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> The committee is made up of a representative from each of the herp societies as well as a few well known herpetologists. How else are the DECC supposed to engage with hobbyists?


Yes we already know this .......... these representatives are members of these forums whats wrong with posting what they tell there society members so everyone knows where it at.


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## Ramsayi (May 25, 2009)

jamgo said:


> Yes we already know this .......... these representatives are members of these forums whats wrong with posting what they tell there society members so everyone knows where it at.



Probably because the representatives have been engaged on behalf of herp societies not online forums which are not included in the consultation process.


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## =bECS= (May 25, 2009)

Also the fact they probably have confidentiality agreements too rams


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## zulu (May 25, 2009)

*re DECC*

They are best to concentrate on one thing like species keeping lists,get that right,then worry about cage sizes and petshops etc,if they have any time left they can get out and look after wildlife.


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## jamgo (May 25, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> Probably because the representatives have been engaged on behalf of herp societies not online forums which are not included in the consultation process.


 I understand that these forums don't need to be in the consultation process.....but i thought these forums were here for the sharing of information and experiences of its members and these representatives are members.


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## wokka (May 25, 2009)

I think DECC accept that the draft is far from perfect in its current form and is only a discussion paper. Once the draft has been pulled to bits, and tidied up by the various consulting groups I expect there will be another round of public consultation including grass roots hobbiests, possinly via forums.


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## Lozza (May 25, 2009)

wokka said:


> I think DECC accept that the draft is far from perfect in its current form and is only a discussion paper. Once the draft has been pulled to bits, and tidied up by the various consulting groups I expect there will be another round of public consultation including grass roots hobbiests, possinly via forums.


Do you know what kind of time frame we are looking at?
I just bought a whole lot of materials to start building some new enclosures but have had to put it on hold in case what I've planned isn't the right size


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## longte (May 25, 2009)

NSW has followed Qld on most things so look at the Qld enclosure sizes for exhibiting wildlife


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## zulu (May 25, 2009)

*re DECC*



lozza said:


> Do you know what kind of time frame we are looking at?
> I just bought a whole lot of materials to start building some new enclosures but have had to put it on hold in case what I've planned isn't the right size



Have they scared you loz,theyll probably close the street off so you cant escape,kick the door down with crazed sniffer dogs running round,rip your license up and flush down the toilet,hold the family hostage but thats all,dont worry things will work out youve got a lot of time on your hands in gaol.


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## Slateman (May 25, 2009)

This forum have 15 000 members and there are another 2 large forums in this country.
I don't see the reason not to communicate with public by using on-line forum. 
I am also member of herp society and have no information from that source.


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## Lozza (May 25, 2009)

zulu said:


> Have they scared you loz,theyll probably close the street off so you cant escape,kick the door down with crazed sniffer dogs running round,rip your license up and flush down the toilet,hold the family hostage but thats all,dont worry things will work out youve got a lot of time on your hands in gaol.


LOL zulu :lol: not so much that as going to all the effort of building them, then having to start again lol


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## zulu (May 25, 2009)

*re DECC*



Slateman said:


> This forum have 15 000 members and there are another 2 large forums in this country.
> I don't see the reason not to communicate with public by using on-line forum.
> I am also member of herp society and have no information from that source.



What you say is true boss slateman,they DECC also prefer to use the internet to seek out and prosecute those that choose the path of evil,officers mixing with underlings may be banned as such like prison officers dating inmates,so they may be able to look but not touch the flesh.


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## zoolander (May 25, 2009)

wokka said:


> I think DECC accept that the draft is far from perfect in its current form and is only a discussion paper


 

why is stamped 'CONFIDENTIAL'?

why don't you share it?


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## pythonmum (May 25, 2009)

I imagine it will be hard to legislate sizes based only on floor space when some folks have much more room in that third dimension. My _Morelia_ enclosures are taller than the floor space because they like to climb. It will be interesting to see if guidelines are in square metres of floor space or cubic metres of enclosure space. Perhaps I will have to turn them all on their sides!


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## MissHiss (May 25, 2009)

Hi Greebo, this is exactly my point, ha ha,.. are people talking square mtrs? or cubic mtrs? there is no mathematical equation other than a square mtr is a square mtr, and the same goes with cubic mtrs.. please inform me if these formulas have changed  as we build houses & if someone will be ordering off us in the future we need to factor the extra 2.4mtr ceiling height in


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## Colin (May 25, 2009)

wokka said:


> I think DECC accept that the draft is far from perfect in its current form and is only a discussion paper. Once the draft has been pulled to bits, and tidied up by the various consulting groups I expect there will be another round of public consultation including grass roots hobbiests, possinly via forums.




whats the latest version please wokka? Is it version 1.6 ? or is their a 1.7 version out?


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## -Matt- (May 25, 2009)

I just dont understand why there is so much secrecy surrounding this proposal and also where all these crazy rumors are coming from? People seem to just be making up sizes willy-nilly and then everyone believes them.

Shouldnt these people that are representing the various herp societies and that are 'in the know' be sharing their knowledge with the rest of the herp community?


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## baxtor (May 25, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> Yes that is big.It is also wrong.
> As Wokka already wrote 4000cm2 is 0.4 square meter.


 
Apples and oranges being compared here. 4000cm2 is an area of 4000cm X 4000cm
it is not 4000 sq cm


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## snitchy (May 25, 2009)

*committee named*

This was not a self appointed advisory committee, but appointed by DECC as an advisory group. 
Anthony Stimpson- Frog and Reptile Expo
Matt Mcloskey- AHS
JohnWeigel (OAM)- Mac Herps, ARP, Snake Ranch
John Mostyn- Hawkesbury herps , Sydney Wildlife World 
Garth Rankin- IRS
Wawrick Denshire- Sofar
Jamie Stuart- North Coast
Dr Glen Shea – Vet, Reptile researcher, Sydney Uni
Gerry Swan - Reptile author, needs no introduction
Dr Jason Flesch- UWS Reptile Research Unit
Dr Peter Harlow- Taronga Zoo
John Cann (OAM) – Reptile author, national treasure, needs no introduction


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## TWENTY B (May 25, 2009)

Mattsnake said:


> Shouldnt these people that are representing the various herp societies and that are 'in the know' be sharing their knowledge with the rest of the herp community?


 
join a herp society, go to a meeting, you might find out some of the info yo are after.

i agree the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous.
heaven forbid you own a few lacies, thier enclosure will have to be bigger than your house


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## Ramsayi (May 26, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> join a herp society, go to a meeting, you might find out some of the info yo are after.
> 
> i agree the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous.
> heaven forbid you own a few lacies, thier enclosure will have to be bigger than your house



40000 cm2 or 4 square metres or 200 x 200cm for a lacey.I don't keep lacies but those dimensions don't seem to be excessive given their overall size.


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## pythons73 (May 26, 2009)

Mattsnake said:


> I just dont understand why there is so much secrecy surrounding this proposal and also where all these crazy rumors are coming from? People seem to just be making up sizes willy-nilly and then everyone believes them.
> 
> Shouldnt these people that are representing the various herp societies and that are 'in the know' be sharing their knowledge with the rest of the herp community?


 If you remember at one of the last meetings,Jamie did mention it,and will keep us informed as much as he can.Those dimensions for a Lacie Rams dont seem to bad,compared to their size,i wouldve thought the measurements for a Lacie to be alot bigger than that..


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## wiz-fiz (May 26, 2009)

i vote craig23 and jason represent us in court, if it gets put through. and it would be good, if the cages aren't to big, like someone mentioned 2.5 mtre floor space for 1 beardie, thats just ridiculous, like maybe 3-4 length and 1-2 deep would be better, because thats what most people keep them in, and it stops people keeping them in tiny cages. but if they do introduce a law that makes u keep all your animals in massive enclosures, it will just kill the hobby. big breeders would go out of business, and most hobbyists would have to sell most of their collection.

Will


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## bundybear (May 26, 2009)

i'm no mathamatical genius, but some people really need to go back and learn basic area measurement.


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## Jungletrans (May 26, 2009)

l see a lot of racks + tubs for sale cheap in NSW soon .


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## Chimera (May 26, 2009)

Jungletrans said:


> l see a lot of racks + tubs for sale cheap in NSW soon .



Not if snitchy is right about the committee. If he is I certainly feel a lot more comfortable having discussed this personally with a few of them.


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## Colin (May 26, 2009)

willia6 said:


> but if they do introduce a law that makes u keep all your animals in massive enclosures, it will just kill the hobby. big breeders would go out of business, and most hobbyists would have to sell most of their collection.



If the DECC is being influenced by any other lobby groups like the animal liberationists.. then maybe thats exactly what these people want to happen.. It would all start to make sense then.. .

we've seen snitchy's post with the people who are on the committe for the reptile keepers. But what I would really like to know is exactly who the DECC is getting its information and suggestions from besides our group? They must have other groups they are listening to besides the reptile keepers commitee surely? who are they?

I think this is the real question that needs to be answered and out in the open. Can anyone that actually knows whats going on comment on this please? 

In politics governments and government departments usually do what they think will win them more votes, more voter support, more lobbyist group donations etc.. Im hoping this scenario is totally wrong and Im just paranoid and cynical. but the possibility does worry and concern me.


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## -Matt- (May 26, 2009)

pythons73 said:


> If you remember at one of the last meetings,Jamie did mention it,and will keep us informed as much as he can.Those dimensions for a Lacie Rams dont seem to bad,compared to their size,i wouldve thought the measurements for a Lacie to be alot bigger than that..


 
Thank you Mark, I must have missed that. I guess we will find out more at next weeks meeting. 

From what has been mentioned recently regarding the enclosure sizes, eg. lacies etc. these sizes dont seem to bad at all and are not in any way excessive.


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## Slateman (May 26, 2009)

Colin said:


> If the DECC is being influenced by any other lobby groups like the animal liberationists.. then maybe thats exactly what these people want to happen.. It would all start to make sense then.. .
> 
> we've seen snitchy's post with the people who are on the committe for the reptile keepers. But what I would really like to know is exactly who the DECC is getting its information and suggestions from besides our group? They must have other groups they are listening to besides the reptile keepers commitee surely? who are they?
> 
> ...



Exactly my concern.


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## FAY (May 26, 2009)

I didn't want to say anything as I may be wrong..........please correct me if I am.

This is just a draft,where these "draft" cages came from I am not sure, but I am pretty sure that the cages sizes haven't even been 'nutted' out between the two said parties as yet.
There is no way I am going to freak out about it until I have reason to. JMO


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## wokka (May 26, 2009)

Although its is referred to as a draft I think a discussion paper is a better discription. They have to start somewhere and I am sure DECC would admit their draft is not perfect. From what I hear as they visit each lot of "experts" the draft is being red lined and modified. As I understand DECC will go public in July with a far more practical draft seeking public comment.


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## -Matt- (May 26, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> join a herp society, go to a meeting, you might find out some of the info yo are after.
> 
> i agree the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous.
> heaven forbid you own a few lacies, thier enclosure will have to be bigger than your house


 
I am involved with a herp society as Im sure a lot of the other people posting on here also are that are asking the exact same questions??

I do know that the enclosure sizes arent going to be rediculous though, DECC arent going to expect people to be keeping scrubbies and lacies etc in enclosures the size of houses...they are not that silly.

From what Wokka has said I guess the rumors will get laid to rest when the public draft is released in july.


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## Colin (May 26, 2009)

Mattsnake said:


> I am involved with a herp society as Im sure a lot of the other people posting on here also are that are asking the exact same questions??
> 
> I do know that the enclosure sizes arent going to be rediculous though, DECC arent going to expect people to be keeping scrubbies and lacies etc in enclosures the size of houses...they are not that silly.
> 
> From what Wokka has said I guess the rumors will get laid to rest when the public draft is released in july.



well Im glad you have the inside information matt and know the enclosure sizes aren't going to be ridiculous :lol: even though in the actual draft there are problems in my opinion. Have you actually read the draft or seen a copy? 

Because the sizes and generalisations for a standard minimum compulsory sizes and the categorys for medium pythons being 4000cm2 (GTP's, RSP and womas) and large pythons being 8000cm2 (BHP's, waters, Eastern carpets, Carpet / Diamond) which dont take into consideration locality size differences etc of the morelia species, many of which are no bigger than any of the three "medium pythons" need a lot of work in my opinion. 

there's a big difference between a recomended guideline and a specific compulsory minimum standard that has to be met no matter what or else your in breach of your licence.

especially if this minimum compulsory size is too big for this category (ie: *minimum *compulsory standard) and probably bigger than a large percentage of experienced keepers and breeders having been successfully using without problems for years eg. 3 foot x 2 foot (floor area) x 2 foot high is a *basic standard size enclosure *used by many people. Its 90cm x 60cm floor area which is 5400cm2 and not the minimum standard for say jungle pythons (morelia spilota cheynei) which have been lumped in with large pythons yet a large percentage of jungle python locality forms eg: palmerstons and julattens are no bigger than the preceding category "medium pythons" that has half the compulsory floor size?? 

remember these are compulsory minimum standards and anything techically under these numbers is in breach of your licence. How can you lump a species such as jungles which have various locality animals that can vary several feet in length as adults with much larger species for a start? and there doesn't seem any provisions for individual variance in species. and thats just the first thing I noticed. what happens if you need to replace 10, 20, 30, 50 maybe more enclosures that you may have kept and bred your reptiles successfully for years because some official says your (for example) 50cm2 short of what they may demand as the *minimum* standard?

maybe you need to get a copy of this 23 page plus draft for yourself to read rather than relying on what other people tell you.


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## TWENTY B (May 26, 2009)

therehas been a fairly large amount of discussion on this subject within my herp society..
if your society has not raised the subject to it's members at a meeting, maybe you should..

from what i've herd the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous
and the required temps gradients etc..
cycles, and various otherthings


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## -Matt- (May 26, 2009)

I would love to be able to read this draft...not all of us are that priveleged. Colin I was just being general and assumed that they wouldnt go as rediculous as house size enclosures, and there are too many theories being thrown around...some say huge some say very reasonable...you dont know who to believe. 
From now on I think it would be smart to just keep my mouth shut.


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## Jason (May 26, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> therehas been a fairly large amount of discussion on this subject within my herp society..
> from what i've herd the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous
> and the required temps gradients etc..
> cycles, and various otherthings



can i ask who told you that it was rediculous? would it be a member of the comity? possibly they are in a position where they dont comply cause the truth of it is that the sizes arent that bad and with alittle work they'll be good. as wokka said a pair of antaresia can be kept in 40 x 50 cm... whats 'rediculous' about this?
i had also heard from a few people that the sizes etc were rediculous. i then heard that a couple of the comity may have been telling people wrong sizes to make more people opose the idea.... possibly your society has one of these people that were twisting the truth. too many 'truths' in this debate. iv heard multiple stories and i know which one im going with.
i guess only time will tell. just wait and see the drafts i guess... if we get to see them.


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## Colin (May 26, 2009)

Mattsnake said:


> From now on I think it would be smart to just keep my mouth shut.




:lol: I wish I could do that myself mate :lol:


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## Crystal..Discus (May 26, 2009)

Too many breeders/keepers are going to put up a fight, and like anything else that gets forced on the masses, there'll be a revolt and the DECC will get flooded with hatemail and such. I don't understand WHY they have to go poking their noses into things. Guidelines are reasonable - and I'd refer to them when keeping my animals. But tell someone - "No, you can't do that!" and they'll do it just to annoy you.


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## borntobnude (May 26, 2009)

It is an impressive list of herp names and brains that snitchy has given us . A group of reptile lovers and enthusiasts who ,im sure , would love nothing more than to see the hobby thrive. The only problem i have is that there are no apparent negative names on the list .Yes im "sure" that some silly recomendations are going to be made but if the same vigour that this forum is putting in now is chaneled purposely we should come out fairly happy [ sounds good and positive eh ] ok lets wait and see!


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## TWENTY B (May 26, 2009)

Jason said:


> can i ask who told you that it was rediculous? would it be a member of the comity? possibly they are in a position where they dont comply cause the truth of it is that the sizes arent that bad and with alittle work they'll be good. as wokka said a pair of antaresia can be kept in 40 x 50 cm... whats 'rediculous' about this?
> i had also heard from a few people that the sizes etc were rediculous. i then heard that a couple of the comity may have been telling people wrong sizes to make more people opose the idea.... possibly your society has one of these people that were twisting the truth. too many 'truths' in this debate. iv heard multiple stories and i know which one im going with.
> i guess only time will tell. just wait and see the drafts i guess... if we get to see them.


 
40x50 is fair, i agree, 
i think it is in reference to what they deam large pythons 
as wel as monitors.


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## Jason (May 26, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> 40x50 is fair, i agree,
> i think it is in reference to what they deam large pythons
> as wel as monitors.



from what i hear:
large monitores ie lacies, etc require somthing like 4 or 5 square metres.
coastals, diamonds, bredli, bhps etc are large and require about 4x2 feet.


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## TWENTY B (May 26, 2009)

i'll find out more tomorrow.


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## MissHiss (May 27, 2009)

Jason, what Wokka actually said on page 15, was that 2 antaresia can be kept in a 2000cm2 or 40cm x 50cm enclosure. typo or not, which one is it? work it out, that's 20 square mtrs. I apologise Wokka i was taking the mickey out of you slightly with my previous posts  we are just finding this enclosure area discussion quite interesting, & are looking forward to seeing the same regulations happen in QLD & all over the country  better sooner than later.


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## JasonL (May 27, 2009)

Overall, I think it is all pretty reasonable, there are some major problems with some of the groupings and husbandry issues that have been put as a blanket ruling that need to exclude some animals, but all and all it's not bad at all.


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## JasonL (May 27, 2009)

MissHiss said:


> Jason, what Wokka actually said on page 15, was that 2 antaresia can be kept in a 2000cm2 or 40cm x 50cm enclosure. typo or not, which one is it? work it out, that's 20 square mtrs. QUOTE]
> 
> For those who are having trouble with the math, I suggest you stop trying to convert 2000cm2 to meters and stick with using cms... type 40 x 50 into your calculator and funny enough you come up with 2000... thats 2000cm2. L x W.


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## Colin (May 27, 2009)

MissHiss said:


> Jason, what Wokka actually said on page 15, was that 2 antaresia can be kept in a 2000cm2 or 40cm x 50cm enclosure. typo or not, which one is it? work it out, that's 20 square mtrs



50 cm x 40cm = 2000cm2
2000 cm² = 0.2 m² not 20 square mtrs
square root of 2000cm2 = 44.72135954 

If you dont believe me.. 
think of a square. now divide that square into four equal sections. 
each side has 2 units. 
2 units x 2 units = 4 square units
square root of 4 = 2

instead of calculating the square root of 2000cm2 or calculating say 2000 / 50 = 40
your multiplying the area x the area or 2000cm2 x 2000cm2

hope that helps.. and hope even more that Im right :lol:


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## swaddo (May 27, 2009)

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57209.html


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## zulu (May 27, 2009)

*re DECC*



Jason said:


> from what i hear:
> large monitores ie lacies, etc require somthing like 4 or 5 square metres.
> coastals, diamonds, bredli, bhps etc are large and require about 4x2 feet.



Surely they would have to go off lengths of individual animals,antaresia could be anything up to 5 ft or so and a carpet could be hatcling size or 2 or 3 metres,they could probably in a practical sense onley go for terrestrial or aboreal species then individual size cages from length of individuals and ide say thats what will happen.


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## webcol (May 27, 2009)

stop worrying about it, most of its just rumours so far. If they do release a size thats unreasonable then people can get angry and complain, but so far know one even knows if the sizes are resonable or not


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## =bECS= (May 27, 2009)

zulu said:


> Surely they would have to go off lengths of individual animals,antaresia could be anything up to 5 ft or so and a carpet could be hatcling size or 2 or 3 metres,they could probably in a practical sense onley go for terrestrial or aboreal species then individual size cages from length of individuals and ide say thats what will happen.



Thats what i have been thinking.
Would the requirement be for adult sizes only and will there be seperate sizes for different stages of life? (hatchie, yearling etc)

If not, its rediculous to think they will want people to keep say a hatchie childrens in a large adult size enclosure. There will be alot more 'why wont my snake eat' and 'escapee' threads.

Same goes for majority of lizards too...


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## Colin (May 27, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> Thats what i have been thinking.
> Would the requirement be for adult sizes only and will there be seperate sizes for different stages of life? (hatchie, yearling etc)
> 
> If not, its rediculous to think they will want people to keep say a hatchie childrens in a large adult size enclosure. There will be alot more 'why wont my snake eat' and 'escapee' threads.
> ...



I heard minimum floor area for hatchlings or juveniles snakes of any species = 500cm2


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## wokka (May 27, 2009)

MissHiss said:


> Jason, what Wokka actually said on page 15, was that 2 antaresia can be kept in a 2000cm2 or 40cm x 50cm enclosure. typo or not, which one is it? work it out, that's 20 square mtrs. I apologise Wokka i was taking the mickey out of you slightly with my previous posts  we are just finding this enclosure area discussion quite interesting, & are looking forward to seeing the same regulations happen in QLD & all over the country  better sooner than later.



I went to school 40 years ago but hope things haven't changes too much.
cm2 means square centimeters. (I dont know how to do a little 2). Area equals length x breadth.
2000 cm2 could be 30cm x 66cm or 40cm x 50cm or 20cm x 100cm. This is a suggested minimum size for up to a pair of Anteresia, however there is also a suggestion that no demension should be less than one third of the snakes length so a 20 x 100 cage could only house 60cm long animals..


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## wokka (May 27, 2009)

=bECS= said:


> Thats what i have been thinking.
> Would the requirement be for adult sizes only and will there be seperate sizes for different stages of life? (hatchie, yearling etc)
> 
> If not, its rediculous to think they will want people to keep say a hatchie childrens in a large adult size enclosure. There will be alot more 'why wont my snake eat' and 'escapee' threads.
> ...



It is very hard to come up with one size fits all rules; I think formulas would be good although after seeing the difficulties of working out 2000cm2, I'm no so sure now.


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## Slateman (May 27, 2009)

baxtor said:


> Apples and oranges being compared here. 4000cm2 is an area of 4000cm X 4000cm
> it is not 4000 sq cm



I am learning every day.

My impression was that 4000cm x4000cm = 16000000cm2

I am from old school, so maybe the new mathematics are more advanced.


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## Slateman (May 27, 2009)

wokka said:


> I went to school 40 years ago but hope things haven't changes too much.
> cm2 means square centimeters. (I dont know how to do a little 2). Area equals length x breadth.
> 2000 cm2 could be 30cm x 66cm or 40cm x 50cm or 20cm x 100cm. This is a suggested minimum size for up to a pair of Anteresia, however there is also a suggestion that no demension should be less than one third of the snakes length so a 20 x 100 cage could only house 60cm long animals..



I am also from old school wokka
I must agree that 40cm x 50cm is 2000cm2
But mate we are old people and the young generation is working indifferent dimension.


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## Slateman (May 27, 2009)

Colin said:


> I heard minimum floor area for hatchlings or juveniles snakes of any species = 500cm2



That would be 25cm x 20cm


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## coz666 (May 27, 2009)

i thought it would be worked in cubic since their is height involved as well.
hahaha just to make it more interesting with your maths skill ,as i have none of my own


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## Slateman (May 27, 2009)

coz666 said:


> i thought it would be worked in cubic since their is height involved as well.
> hahaha just to make it more interesting with your maths skill ,as i have none of my own



coz666 if this will be in cubic cm. just add another dimention to calculation.

40cm x 50cm x 50cm and this will be 100 000,00 cubic centimeters.


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## Colin (May 27, 2009)

untouchables said:


> stop worrying about it, most of its just rumours so far. If they do release a size thats unreasonable then people can get angry and complain, but so far know one even knows if the sizes are resonable or not



thanks for that info dude  thats a weight off my mind..


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## JasonL (May 27, 2009)

untouchables said:


> stop worrying about it, most of its just rumours so far. If they do release a size thats unreasonable then people can get angry and complain, but so far know one even knows if the sizes are resonable or not



lol, why don't they know? is the draft "Version 1.6" a bogus plan put out by the DECC just to divert our minds whilst they are all playing golf at the Lakes?


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## MissHiss (May 27, 2009)

Hi Slateman, i gather by your name you have probably layed a few floors with stone.. if you were to measure a floor area of 40cm x 50cm, would you order slate at 2000cm square? (which if you convert it, would then become 20mtrs square) or would you add the next formula to it  if you were to measure the same floor area again, as .4mtrs x .5mtrs then the result would become .2 of a metre square,, yes? would you then order slate at 20mtr square? or .2mtrs square? i know which one i would order unless i needed a lot of leftovers  sorry i am really not taking the mickey out of you  i am finding this very hard to fathom whether people are being serious or not, i suppose that serves me right for starting it in the first place


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## derekm (May 27, 2009)

I think the problem some people are having is that an area measurement stated as "2000cm2" is ambiguous because you can't superscript the "2". Can I suggest that we agree that "2000 square cm" = an area 50cm x 40cm and that "2000 cm square" = an area 2000cm x 2000cm. For those who really must use a "2", then put a "^" in front of it to show that it is superscripted (as per Excel formulas). In that case "2000cm^2" = "2000 square cm" = an area 50cm x 40cm.


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## =bECS= (May 27, 2009)

lol, this thread has turned into a maths club!


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## Slateman (May 28, 2009)

MissHiss said:


> Hi Slateman, i gather by your name you have probably layed a few floors with stone.. if you were to measure a floor area of 40cm x 50cm, would you order slate at 2000cm square? (which if you convert it, would then become 20mtrs square) or would you add the next formula to it  if you were to measure the same floor area again, as .4mtrs x .5mtrs then the result would become .2 of a metre square,, yes? would you then order slate at 20mtr square? or .2mtrs square? i know which one i would order unless i needed a lot of leftovers  sorry i am really not taking the mickey out of you  i am finding this very hard to fathom whether people are being serious or not, i suppose that serves me right for starting it in the first place



wrong.
if anybody need slate for flore area 40cm x 50cm they will order 2000cm2 of slate dear.
I am sorry to disappoint you.
2000cm2 is equivalen to *0.2m2* 
*not 2m2* that is where you have it wrong. 
How could possibly 40x50cm be 2m2? 



Please go back to school. I am making living by calculating areas in all dimentions all my life, I can't afford to be wrong here..


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## lovey (May 28, 2009)

First the spelling and grammar police, 
now the math police..:lol:

It would help if people would get there conversions right. Misshiss your way off.


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## Daz_McC (May 28, 2009)

Everyone seems to be getting caught up in the detail of enclosure dimensions. I'd like to take a step back and ask people whether they think a code of practice for reptile keepers is a good idea or not.

Can people agree on the basic care requirements of reptiles (e.g. heat, light, food, etc) and if so should keepers be required by law to provide them?

Do reptiles suffer in enclosures that prevent them from performing natural behaviour (climbing, digging, swimming etc) or is suffering a purely mammalian phenomenon?


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## TWENTY B (May 29, 2009)

ENCLOSURE SIZE FOR KEEPING LACIES, 
2m x 5m for 1animal, 
+ 20% extra for each aditional animal
thats another 1m x 2m


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## baxtor (May 29, 2009)

Slateman said:


> wrong.
> if anybody need slate for flore area 40cm x 50cm they will order 2000cm2 of slate dear.
> I am sorry to disappoint you.
> 2000cm2 is equivalen to *0.2m2*
> ...


 
but you are


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## JasonL (May 29, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> ENCLOSURE SIZE FOR KEEPING LACIES,
> 2m x 5m for 1animal,
> + 20% extra for each aditional animal
> thats another 1m x 2m



Lace Monitor - 40 000cm2 for a single animal or a pair. thats 2 x 2 meters or 3 x 1.4 meters, 20% for every extra animal over a pair.


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## Chimera (May 29, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> ENCLOSURE SIZE FOR KEEPING LACIES,
> 2m x 5m for 1animal,
> + 20% extra for each aditional animal
> thats another 1m x 2m



I've seen a few things on this thread about "minimum lacey enclosure size". I wonder how Dave Kirshner's setup compares?

I think the fact that he can triple clutch his laceys says he's doing something right


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## JasonL (May 29, 2009)

Chimera said:


> I've seen a few things on this thread about "minimum lacey enclosure size". I wonder how Dave Kirshner's setup compares?
> 
> I think the fact that he can triple clutch his laceys says he's doing something right



Dave lets them walk around his apartment, so their "enclosure" is really just a giant hide box with a closable door


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## zulu (May 29, 2009)

*re DECC*

In NSW one metre squared = 10,000 centre metres squared thats 100cm x 100cm = 10,000 cm2 ,its all to do with time zones and measurements not catching up or on in other states. I dont believe that story anymore about the 28 ft scrubby in queensland unless it was measured by someone from NSW. :lol:


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## Chimera (May 29, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Dave lets them walk around his apartment, so their "enclosure" is really just a giant hide box with a closable door



I was waiting for it, thanks Jas. This demonstrates my point on blanket legislation, there are always other factors other than the dimensions of the enclosure.

For those of you who haven't seen Dave present, his laceys are given just about free run of the house. It includes photos of them mating on the living room rug


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## FAY (May 29, 2009)

zulu said:


> In NSW one metre squared = 10,000 centre metres squared thats 100cm x 100cm = 10,000 cm2 ,its all to do with time zones and measurements not catching up or on in other states. I dont believe that story anymore about the 28 ft scrubby in queensland unless it was measured by someone from NSW. :lol:




Well, there is a story to that....when Garth was a teenager he used to hang around Louis Robichaux who caught the biggest scrubby ever....in Eric Worrell's book it said it was 28 foot.
Louis always made a point to tell Garth quite often that it was actually 25foot and ten inches.


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## zulu (May 29, 2009)

*re DECC*



GARTHNFAY said:


> Well, there is a story to that....when Garth was a teenager he used to hang around Louis Robichaux who caught the biggest scrubby ever....in Eric Worrell's book it said it was 28 foot.
> Louis always made a point to tell Garth quite often that it was actually 25foot and ten inches.



Thats interesting Fay ,hes had allot of experience Garth,very good,these days its a differnt story you breed pet reptiles for several years and your a legend.


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## Colin (May 29, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> Well, there is a story to that....when Garth was a teenager he used to hang around Louis Robichaux who caught the biggest scrubby ever....in Eric Worrell's book it said it was 28 foot.
> Louis always made a point to tell Garth quite often that it was actually 25foot and ten inches.



great information Fay  thats still a huge scubby in my book. must have been a good age to be that size in the wild.

just wondering what the biggest scrubbie in captivity or bred in captivity might be? and its age?
anyone have any accurate measurements and information?


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## JasonL (May 29, 2009)

Colin said:


> great information Fay  thats still a huge scubby in my book. must have been a good age to be that size in the wild.
> 
> just wondering what the biggest scrubbie in captivity or bred in captivity might be? and its age?
> anyone have any accurate measurements and information?



I have a friend with a massive one, biggest you will ever see in a life time, I think it's 4000cm2 or something like that


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## Colin (May 29, 2009)

JasonL said:


> I have a friend with a massive one, biggest you will ever see in a life time, I think it's 4000cm2 or something like that



wow jason that about? ummmm? 400 yards long isn't it? :lol: 
Im glad we have the new guidelines to refer to on how to keep stuff now.. 
however did we do without them??


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## jacorin (May 29, 2009)

are DECC going to put out a proposal for ppl to look at and comment on before making it legit????


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## TWENTY B (May 29, 2009)

jason, that size is for 1 animal,
thats what i was told wed night at ahs


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## JasonL (May 30, 2009)

No, it's for 2


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## -Peter (May 30, 2009)

cm are for dressmakers.


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## shiregirl (Jun 2, 2009)

Any news??? Snitchy maybe?


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## TWENTY B (Jun 2, 2009)

after speeking to some people "in the know" these enclosure sizes aren't that bad, 
they are fairly reasonable..
but there is still alot of work to be done on this paper.
animals wrongly classified on the sizing charts, etc.

minimum for 1 or 2 lacies is 40000cm2 which is 2m x 2m
minimum for 1 or 2 BHP's is 8000cm2 which is 1.4m x 60cm
1 or 2 scrubbies are20000cm which is 1m x 2m
+20% for each aditional animal


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## JasonL (Jun 2, 2009)

20% larger for lizards, 50% larger for snakes....


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## TWENTY B (Jun 2, 2009)

sorry, yes 50% for snakes, which is a bit excessive.especially for arborial species


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## Colin (Jun 2, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> after speeking to some people "in the know" these enclosure sizes aren't that bad,
> they are fairly reasonable..




I was impressed that they placed golden crowned snakes in with the large elapids like taipans, tigers and browns


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## TWENTY B (Jun 2, 2009)

back on topic mate.


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## Colin (Jun 2, 2009)

-Peter said:


> cm are for dressmakers.



probably a few of those in their ranks.


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## TWENTY B (Jun 2, 2009)

lmfao,colin, i got your full length rant as an email notification.


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## DDALDD (Jun 2, 2009)

JasonL said:


> 20% larger for lizards, 50% larger for snakes....




50% larger for snakes is a considerable increase. Will require many a herp room to be rearranged when/if it becomes official.

Edit: Sorry, I just realised what the 50% was in reference to. I thought they were saying that current snake enclosure's need to be 50% larger than they are.


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## JasonL (Jun 2, 2009)

Personally I don't think multiple snakes should be kept together anyway, so can't see the problem, though some breeding situations may cause a problem. Who here keeps more than 2 snakes together in four foot enclosures?


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## -Peter (Jun 2, 2009)

lets get this straight 
40000cm2 is 40 metres squared which is 40 metres by 40 metres or 40000cm by 40000cm not 40000 square cm which is 10 metres by 4 metres as opposed to 4000 square cm which is 2metres by 2metres.


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## SammySnakes (Jun 2, 2009)

I think people should focus on just cm, not metres, rather than combining them in measurements as this has sent quite a bit of confusion for some people.

40000cm2 is 200cm x 200cm (otherwise known as 2mx2m). The reason for this is 200x200= 40000. 

If you really wish to convert a cm2 figure to m2, take off four zeros. In other words, 40000cm2 also equals 4m2.


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## Stranger (Jun 2, 2009)

Or everybody can just hush.. and wait for them . If they do.. put this into practice. I dont see a point sitting here arguing about who knows more. when really we all know bugger all. Npws changes there mind every minute.


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## wokka (Jun 3, 2009)

I heard there may be a basic maths test as part of the new reptile lisencing, or was that a spelling test. lol


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## Lozza (Jun 3, 2009)

wokka said:


> I heard there may be a basic maths test as part of the new reptile lisencing, or was that a spelling test. lol


 :lol:


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## Colin (Jun 3, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> lmfao,colin, i got your full length rant as an email notification.



 OMG :lol: I plead the fifth and was only pasting an extract from someones email in a private message.. 
how it turned up in the post is a mystery


In relation to this DECC draft and from speaking to several people over the weekend, I really cant understand why this department wants to push for any compulsory minimum enclosure sizes.

Im all for guidelines and best practise suggestions. but really fail to see any benefit whatsoever in making minimum (which really isnt minimum but whose splitting hairs :roll enclosure standards compulsory law. If its wrong or needed attention after its brought in we have no chance in hell of ever getting these peculiar ideas changed.. 

By making them guidelines (at least for the present) it gives more time to find any thing thats not really workable and iron out the bugs before setting it in stone.


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## pythonmum (Jun 3, 2009)

wokka said:


> I heard there may be a basic maths test as part of the new reptile lisencing, or was that a spelling test. lol


My top secret info says that these will not be required for the Class 1 license, but will be mandatory before posting in this thread.


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## TWENTY B (Jun 3, 2009)

gecko's or any hatchies = 500cm2 = 25 x 20
small skinks = 1000cm2 = 40 x 35
small elapid & python = 2000cm2 = 45 x 45
hatchie turtles = 3000cm2 = 60 x 51 
large skinks, small dragons & monitors, colubrids, medium pythons, large elapid = 4000cm2 = 90 x 45
large dragons, medium monitors = 6000cm2 = 100 x 60
large pythons = 8000cm2 = 140 x 60
large monitors = 10,000 = 100 x 100
small turtles = 15,000 = 150 x 100
very large python's = 20,000 = 200 x 100
large turtles = 30,000 = 300 x 100
very large monitors = 40,000 = 200 x 200

i think those keeping turtles are up 5hit creek 
( 50% extra for each additional animal after 2. and 50/50 land /water)


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## Lozza (Jun 3, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> gecko's or any hatchies = 500cm2 = 25 x 20


So what about gecko hatchies 
Takeaway containers arent 500cm2, it would be rediculous for say Diplodactylus hatchies to be kept in something that size.


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## TWENTY B (Jun 3, 2009)

doesn't say anything about them.
just says hatchies, any species, and gecko's.500


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## girdheinz (Jun 3, 2009)

TWENTY B said:


> gecko's or any hatchies = 500cm2 = 25 x 20
> small skinks = 1000cm2 = 40 x 35
> small elapid & python = 2000cm2 = 45 x 45
> hatchie turtles = 3000cm2 = 60 x 51
> ...


 

Remember this document you refer to is a *DRAFT *and i have it on good authority that there have been significant changes made (particularly on turtles, pythons and hatchlings) and possibly more to come. These sizes come straight from the keeping books in many cases, so it is hard to ridicule DECC for their first (confidential  attempt). Once the consultant group/s have finished having their input, the public will eventually have a chance to comment before this document is or isn't implemented. All herp socities are represented on the advisory groups, so why not attend and recieve updates from those actually in consultation with DECC.

Gird


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## jacorin (Jun 3, 2009)

great,so the cnr entertainment unit i want to turn into a Stimpson unit,is now no good?????

its 64cm D
60 cm H
117 cm W(front)
36 cm W (rear)


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## TWENTY B (Jun 3, 2009)

jacorin said:


> great,so the cnr entertainment unit i want to turn into a Stimpson unit,is now no good?????
> 
> its 64cm D
> 60 cm H
> ...


sound fine to me...
they are a small python, so that easily coveres the required space (2000cm2)


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## jacorin (Jun 3, 2009)

goodo,thx B 

all i gotta do now is work out how im setting it up and with wot lol


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## shiregirl (Jun 11, 2009)

*BUMP* <.>

Any news?? I have to build more enclosures soon!


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## Slateman (Jun 18, 2009)

wow shiregirl You will need 2 acres to keep the animal in your avatar.


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## Colin (Jun 18, 2009)

shiregirl said:


> Any news?? I have to build more enclosures soon!



I heard that the launch at Hawsbury was cancelled and theres another meeting next monday with the committee.


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## shiregirl (Jun 18, 2009)

Slateman said:


> wow shiregirl You will need 2 acres to keep the animal in your avatar.


 
Seems that way if past estimates are true :? See the size of the food item? :lol:




Colin said:


> I heard that the launch at Hawsbury was cancelled and theres another meeting next monday with the committee.


 
If it is a government run department, especially run by a state Labor party, it may never happen! :lol:


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## Colin (Jun 18, 2009)

shiregirl said:


> run by a state Labor party :




 what a bunch of incompetant losers they are.. a chook raffle is beyond their scope..


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## shiregirl (Jun 18, 2009)

Colin said:


> what a bunch of incompetant losers they are.. a chook raffle is beyond their scope..


 

And the other ones aren't much better!


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## Mr.James (Jul 5, 2009)

Anyone know what size enclosure will be most likely required for Angle-headed dragons? If this ends up happening..


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## pythons73 (Jul 5, 2009)

From a reliable source,theres no need for concern,everything is staying the way it is now...Thank god...


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## Oldbeard (Jul 5, 2009)

pythons73 said:


> From a reliable source,theres no need for concern,everything is staying the way it is now...Thank god...


 yeah i heard that all my tub sizes are fine for the animals i have in them...Phew what a relief!!!! 
good day for the hobby !!! IMO of course


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## Jdsixtyone (Jul 9, 2009)

So is this now enforced or is it a discussion like it was for the woma.


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## zulu (Jul 9, 2009)

*re DECC*



Colin said:


> what a bunch of incompetant losers they are.. a chook raffle is beyond their scope..


Yeh Colin,for the chook raffle they might have to put in a submission for funding to the federal government and they would be knocked back for costing,presentation,planning and spelling mistakes.


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## smacktart (Jul 9, 2009)

I have 2 hatchies in a 6 foot tank think i meet the standard lol


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## pythonmum (Jul 9, 2009)

smacktart said:


> I have 2 hatchies in a 6 foot tank think i meet the standard lol


Yes to the enclosure size, but you'll get flamed for keeping two animals together. Can't win, mate!


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## wokka (Jul 9, 2009)

smacktart said:


> I have 2 hatchies in a 6 foot tank think i meet the standard lol



The standards are in fact guidelines. The guidelines discourage the keeping of two snakes together and also the enclosure would be too big.


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## Octane (Jul 9, 2009)

As per information from the last herp society meeting which I attended, I believe that DECC are still in consultation about the issue of mandatory minimum enclosure sizes. 

Indications are that instead of mandatory regulated minimum enclosure sizes there will be a code of best practice or recommended guideline in regards to minimum sizes for enclosures. 

This has come about because of the hard work by the representatives of the herp community which are part of the consultative process. Members of this group have put in a considerable amount of their own time, both in attending the DECC meetings and in preparing sound fact based submissions on behalf of the rest of the NSW herp community.

This issue has not been finalised as yet so don't think it can't or is not going to happen. Remember this matter was originally raised by DECC possibly after being pushed by other parties (animal welfare groups and th like) and I have a suspicion the bureaucratic process which started this may still push forward with some form of regulation. It could be a case of get a guideline in place then in the future make the guideline into regulation.

Some have hinted that this whole issue of mandating minimum enclosure sizes is in preparation for the possible retail sale of reptiles through pet shops. Instead of mandatory requirements for the provision of adequate sized housing on the grounds of animal welfare would it not be better for a person to prove prior knowledge and/or complete a basic husbandry course related to the type of licence for which they are applying?

Mandating a husbandry course or proof of prior knowledge prior to a licence being issued would have several benefits for example it would ensure that a person would have the basic knowledge in regards to the care, housing and wellbeing prior to them being able to aquire an animal, it would act as a deterant for the impulse buyer as they would actually have to do something more than just fill out the licence application, if done through herp societies it would potentially boost memberships, a nominal fee could be charged which could then be used to fund society activities and in addition could be used beneficially towards study, research and conservation.


Regards
Octane.


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## Colin (Jul 9, 2009)

Octane said:


> Indications are that instead of mandatory regulated minimum enclosure sizes there will be a code of best practice or recommended guideline in regards to minimum sizes for enclosures.
> 
> This has come about because of the hard work by the representatives of the herp community which are part of the consultative process. Members of this group have put in a considerable amount of their own time, both in attending the DECC meetings and in preparing sound fact based submissions on behalf of the rest of the NSW herp community.



this is exactly what I heard. Instead of a mandatory minimum enclosure sizes it is proposed that it will just be a recomended guideline instead. which is exactly how it should be in my opinion.

I'd also like to thanks the members of the committee for their work to achieve this result on our behalf. thanks guys and Im sure all the reptile keepers in NSW appreciate all the hard work you guys have put in. cheers.



Octane said:


> Instead of mandatory requirements for the provision of adequate sized housing on the grounds of animal welfare would it not be better for a person to prove prior knowledge and/or complete a basic husbandry course related to the type of licence for which they are applying?
> 
> Mandating a husbandry course or proof of prior knowledge prior to a licence being issued would have several benefits for example it would ensure that a person would have the basic knowledge in regards to the care, housing and wellbeing prior to them being able to aquire an animal, it would act as a deterant for the impulse buyer as they would actually have to do something more than just fill out the licence application, if done through herp societies it would potentially boost memberships, a nominal fee could be charged which could then be used to fund society activities and in addition could be used beneficially towards study, research and conservation..



great call and something more experienced keepers have been suggesting for a long time now. It really saddens me personally when I see so many threads, especially here on APS where its clear that the new keeper just doesnt have a clue about keeping there reptile and has obtained a licence and a live animal without really any basic knowledge of how to keep it, look after it and keep it healthy.. 

Its far too easy to obtain a reptile licence in my opinion and with the introduction of pet shops being able to sell animals then it can only get worse, when people with no knowledge buy an animal on a whim without and idea how to look after it. 

I'd be all for the NSW DEC introducing some mandatory test or demonstration of an applicants knowledge before they are granted a licence. 

A licence to keep our native reptiles isn't a right.. its a priveledge.


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## serpenttongue (Jul 9, 2009)

I haven't read most of this thread, so i don't know if it's already been said, but i'd like to know if these enclosures sizes will apply to places like Taronga Zoo. They have lots of 'off display/spare' animals out the back which are kept in very small enclosures, sometimes for years. Will they have to upgrade these animals to larger enclosures, or will they be above the law?


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## wokka (Jul 9, 2009)

serpenttongue said:


> I haven't read most of this thread, so i don't know if it's already been said, but i'd like to know if these enclosures sizes will apply to places like Taronga Zoo. They have lots of 'off display/spare' animals out the back which are kept in very small enclosures, sometimes for years. Will they have to upgrade these animals to larger enclosures, or will they be above the law?



DECC does not control the Zoo license. The proposed DECC guidelines are for private keepers and meant to guide keepers towards best practice. They are not framed as a basis for law.


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## serpenttongue (Jul 9, 2009)

Thanks, wokka.


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## stannysnake (Jul 9, 2009)

Is there website where these proposed minimum sizes are listed? I cant find any info. Im in the process of setting up a room for my snakes but worried about going ahead now if they are going to set new requirements in the near future. Not that my enclosures are going to be small in fact probably a bit more than they need.


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## wokka (Jul 10, 2009)

stannysnake said:


> Is there website where these proposed minimum sizes are listed? I cant find any info. Im in the process of setting up a room for my snakes but worried about going ahead now if they are going to set new requirements in the near future. Not that my enclosures are going to be small in fact probably a bit more than they need.



The Code of practice is currently still in draft form and should be available for comment in a couple of months. The draft does not contain minimum cage sizes nor maximums but recommends suitable sizes. The code is a guideline to encourage best practice in reptile keeping. My observation is that the vast majority of cages (probably 95+%) currently used by keepers fall within the recommended sizes. The code recognises that there are no "one size fits all" rules for keeping reptiles with one of the major influences being the keepers experience.There is recognition that cages can be too big as well as too small particularly when dealing with hatchling reptiles.


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## CandiceJ (Jul 14, 2009)

has there been any more word on this one guys? I am about to redo 3 enclosures and damned if I wanna do it again in a month cause they suddenly change the rules....??


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## wokka (Jul 14, 2009)

CandiceJ said:


> has there been any more word on this one guys? I am about to redo 3 enclosures and damned if I wanna do it again in a month cause they suddenly change the rules....??



They could change or implement rules at any time, but the current discussions involve guidelines not rules.


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## ShaunMorelia (Aug 10, 2009)

*Draft Code of Practice Feedback Form*

Hey everyone,
I picked this up at our last Shoalhaven Reptile Club meeting.
Thought it may be of intrest of most people.
I dont have a link to it on their website but here's a pdf of it that I scanned in.
Hope everyone can fill it out and send it in. The more people that can send one in the more info they have to use and give out a suitable size.

View attachment Draft Feedback.pdf


Cheers


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## Colin (Aug 10, 2009)

thanks for that The_S_Word

this is a great step forward in my opinion with the NSW DECC actually asking for some feedback like this.. 
Its always best when both "sides" can sit down and put forward ideas and come out with a mutually agreeable and satisfactory result.

great move by Daniel Van Dyk from the NSW DECC


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## ShaunMorelia (Aug 10, 2009)

Colin said:


> thanks for that The_S_Word
> 
> this is a great step forward in my opinion with the NSW DECC actually asking for some feedback like this..
> Its always best when both "sides" can sit down and put forward ideas and come out with a mutually agreeable and satisfactory result.
> ...


 
no worries Colin.
I thought someone may have already posted it and after a brief search on the DECC website I couldn't find it so thought I'll whack it up.

And i agree with you and I believe that it should come out with a good result for both sides.
Always a good sign to see that they (DECC) are willing to hear what other keepers think are suitable enclosure sizes before finalising.


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## nat0810 (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks S Word.

Filled out and sent off my one.


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## mungus (Aug 10, 2009)

Enclosure sizes are just to small IMO
Main concern is the enclosure sizes for medium and large pythons.
600x450 for a Woma ?? - Try 1000W x 750H x 600WD
900x600 for Diamonds and carpets ?? - Try 1200W x1500H x 600D.
I personally believe these sizes are put forward to keep " large " breeders happy.
Smaller enclosures means more enclosures per sq.m, which equals more reptiles.
Again, just my opinion.
Aleks.


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## jack (Aug 10, 2009)

no mention of height for arboreal snakes... no mention of elapids?


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## Ramsayi (Aug 10, 2009)

For anyone considering filling out the draft pdf form and sending it in please have a very good grasp of what minimum sizes should be.The last thing that is needed is people with limited knowledge putting their 2 cents worth in even if they have best intentions in mind when doing it.


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## Colin (Aug 10, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> For anyone considering filling out the draft pdf form and sending it in please have a very good grasp of what minimum sizes should be.The last thing that is needed is people with limited knowledge putting their 2 cents worth in even if they have best intentions in mind when doing it.



exactly rams. 

minimum size means smaller than you would normally consider using but still ok in a pinch. so theres no need to put down what you actually keep your animals in.. this is for minimum size recomendation and lets face it pythons can live comfortably in pretty small enclosures if the heat and gradient is ok.. 

Its also really only for NSW keepers too and doesnt apply to other states.


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## mungus (Aug 10, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> For anyone considering filling out the draft pdf form and sending it in please have a very good grasp of what minimum sizes should be.The last thing that is needed is people with limited knowledge putting their 2 cents worth in even if they have best intentions in mind when doing it.



Limited knowledge...............:|
I can see my 2 1/2 metre diamonds / bredli's etc living in a 900x600 enclosure.
My best intentions are for my reptiles..............
Draft sent......


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## Ramsayi (Aug 11, 2009)

mungus said:


> Limited knowledge...............:|
> I can see my 2 1/2 metre diamonds / bredli's etc living in a 900x600 enclosure.
> My best intentions are for my reptiles..............
> Draft sent......



My post wasn't directed at you,(hence I didn't quote you) or anyone else in particular,sorry if you took it that way.

Not everything is as clear cut regarding sizes.You recommended a 1000W x 750H x 600WD for a woma as an example. Womas come in lots of different sizes, the line I keep being not much bigger than macs.I actually keep them in enclosures measuring 1200x800x600H however there is no way I would recommend that as a minimum standard.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 11, 2009)

You should all be very careful about handing out compliments to DECC for being "consultative". I, and a few other members here, are on the advisory committee, chosen by and currently in discussion with DECC about the Code of Practice, currently in draft form. Collectively this group has at least 200 years of keeping and publishing experience.

The move into animal welfare issues represents a major move sideways for DECC, and if you accept what they are doing at face value, you are handing a whole new range of powers to officers of the DECC to enter your homes and INSTRUCT you on how to keep your animals, or risk prosecution if you don't comply. In most cases these instructions will be issued from a rule book, by a person who has never kept reptiles, and may indeed think you are weird for wanting to do so. 

Animal "welfare" is a very useful hook on which to hang a whole range of sentiment grabbing issues, and it is used relentlessly by animal "rights" activists to achieve what can be very considerable constraints on what you do with your animals in your own home. As I pointed out in a recent article in Scales and Tails, we should all have the welfare of our animals in mind whatever we do with them.

One of the big problems with what Daniel van Dyk is doing here is that he has not advised us what weight will be placed on the feedback DECC gets from canvassing the issue as he is doing. Another problem, caused when the questionnaire is scanned and placed here, is that it will create a division of opinion between keepers. This can be very easily exploited by DECC to achieve it's goals. Make no mistake, DECC is not the naive government body seeking advice from a neutral base. DECC has an objective to achieve an outcome which may not be what you expect.

This is a big subject, with potential outcomes which could change the nature of reptile keeping across the country. It disturbs me greatly that many vastly inexperienced members of this site have been invited, and may be tempted to, comment on issues about which they know nothing. This is a very dangerous precedent.

Jamie.


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## Colin (Aug 11, 2009)

I understand your concerns jamie, and I had the same concerns when I as I understood it the DECC wanted to bring in mandatory minimum regulated enclosure sizes that were enforcable by law.

from what I heard last were that Indications are instead of mandatory regulated minimum enclosure sizes.. there will be a code of best practice or recommended guidelines in regards to minimum sizes for enclosures. 

I understood that to mean that the draft will be a guide only with best practice recomendations and suggestions.. which will not be mandatory, compulsory or enforceable? 

Is this correct? or has there been some new changes that lead you to think they will bring in these minimum enclosure size changes as mandatory enforcable regulations like we first thought? 

if so then thats a real worry..


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## shiregirl (Aug 11, 2009)

So people where complaining the enclosures were to big, when it apparently was going to be enforced and now they are complaining it's to small when it may just be a guideline? :?

I don't have problem with the mimimum requirements listed recently. As has been said earlier all snakes are different. Who is to say that the minimum measurements weren't put there to cover those fussy snakes that just won't go well in a larger enclosure?

I think what has been written here somes it up:
It disturbs me greatly that many vastly inexperienced members of this site have been invited, and may be tempted to, comment on issues about which they know nothing. This is a very dangerous precedent.

*end rant*


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## Bushfire (Aug 11, 2009)

I dont have a problem with those sizes. Like with alot of other licensing stuff I guess it will come down to what sort of working relationship you have with the DECC Officer. If you are or have been difficult in the past they may use this document against you more strictly than normal. Whereas if you have a good relationship the Officer might say gee that looks alittle small is there a reason for that? You state your reason and he/she might think that makes sense and move on, exactly what they normally do with paperwork indiscretions.

Whether its enforceable or not, if you dont comply with it you run the risk of having to justify your position in court. This document will be the departments benchmark or measure on whether an animal has the proper care or not.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 11, 2009)

Col, the problem is that we haven't seen the final of the new draft, and I suspect that individuals in DECC may be unhappy with the proposals so far, even though they have agreed, on the face of it, to accept them. Hence the canvassing of opinions about enclosure sizes in this very premature manner. It seems to me they want to get "public opinion" on their side, regardless of how ill informed it may be, because they always had an agenda to push for larger cages. One of the biggest points of concern we had when going in to these discussions was the significant weight DECC was keen to give to "public perception."

To me, the only opinion that matters is that of the reptile keeper - the non-keeping members of the public know nothing about reptiles, and their opinions or perceptions should not be supported by DECC. That's about as blunt as I can get.

If we allow the standards, or even recommendations, to be driven by public perception, it will just be the thin end of the wedge. A whole new field of concerns can be generated by interest groups such as the animal rights lobby, and make no mistake, there will be continuing pressure on animal keepers of all sorts, from outside the bureaucracy, and from within.

Daniel has been preemptive in handing out his questionnaire, as the group appointed by DECC has a meeting in Hurstville on August 21st. I am disappointed that he has done this prior to further discussion with us.

The perception you had about the intentions of the document are similar to those members of the advisory group had at the end of our last meeting, but until the final draft has been signed off, nothing is set in concrete.

I am concerned that what we see now may not be what we end up with.

Jamie.


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## shiregirl (Aug 11, 2009)

shiregirl said:


> So people where complaining the enclosures were to big, when it apparently was going to be enforced and now they are complaining it's to small when it may just be a guideline? :?


 
And just to add to this, this is a ( proposed? )MINIMUM size. You can always have a bigger enclosure but if those proposed/ discussed enclosure sizes mentioned earlier on in the thread are passed through you can't go back.

I'd also like ti thanks Jamie and the rest of the crew for taking time out of thier own busy schedule to help DEcc "see the light".


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## Colin (Aug 11, 2009)

thanks jamie and I can see now why your concerned and hope you guys on the committee can sort through this situation and get a good result for us all.. 

after hearing what you have to say on this public opinion situation.. Im changing my original (probably naive at the time when Im usually very cynical) position on thinking it was a good thing to believing its a absolutely bad idea with these anonymous replies to the DECC.

for example whats to stop people with an agenda from bombarding the DECC with their recomendations, and influencing the actual reptile keepers suggestions by corupting it to their viewpoint? maybe this is what they have in mind? 

I hope the committee can get these anonymous public opinion recomendations stopped and have no bearing or influence whatsoever... If they want public opinion I for one would be prepared to put my name and licence number on a reply and think the only people qualified and entitled to actually return a response to this questionaire are licenced NSW reptile keepers. and even thats still a worry.. but better than anonymous replies..

good luck with it all mate.. 

and as I have said previously in earlier posts in this thread.. 
thanks again to all the committee for the hard work you guys have done on our behalf.. cheers


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks guys. As has been stated, the suggested sizes were MINIMUM, there is absolutely no reason why you could not go larger, in fact most probably would. The fact that big breeders might choose smaller enclosures for whatever reason, is largely irrelevant to the welfare debate. Breeders necessarily need healthy animals year after year, and in most cases, good health = good mangement. Snakes (especially pythons) are sedentary, lazy animals with very economical energy needs - they don't move much if they don't have to. If they are clean, healthy and breed well, then management is probably good, even if they are in smallish enclosures.

I have pointed out in an email that the nature of the document distributed by DVD will allow the reults to be skewed by any person or group to produce a bias favourable to the desired outcome. That may be the intention.

Ahh, the things one has to do on one's birthday!

Jamie.


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## Vat69 (Aug 11, 2009)

Of all places for the form to be posted out of the blue, it's here :lol:
What was the point of the expert panel again?


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## Colin (Aug 11, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I have pointed out in an email that the nature of the document distributed by DVD will allow the reults to be skewed by any person or group to produce a bias favourable to the desired outcome. That may be the intention.
> 
> Ahh, the things one has to do on one's birthday!
> 
> Jamie.



but I explained that point more eloquently I thought anyway  

I was going to post on here and elsewhere it was your birthday Jamie 
but thought it would embarass you too much if people knew you were older than Methuselah :lol: 
Happy Birthday (again) mate


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## wokka (Aug 11, 2009)

One of the main problems in seeking public feedback is that the public generally haven't got a clue about what is good for reptiles. Public perception is often that the bigger the better, but most keepers know that too big can be equally as bad as too small.
It appears that the public feedback form asks for no qualifaication of the respondent and so may well be filled out by those with no knowledge of reptile husbandry.


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## JasonL (Aug 11, 2009)

wokka said:


> It appears that the public feedback form asks for no qualifaication of the respondent and so may well be filled out by those with no knowledge of reptile husbandry.



exactly... having a AKL no. means squat.


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## mungus (Aug 11, 2009)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Thanks guys. As has been stated, the suggested sizes were MINIMUM, there is absolutely no reason why you could not go larger, in fact most probably would. The fact that big breeders might choose smaller enclosures for whatever reason, is largely irrelevant to the welfare debate. Breeders necessarily need healthy animals year after year, and in most cases, good health = good mangement. Snakes (especially pythons) are sedentary, lazy animals with very economical energy needs - they don't move much if they don't have to. If they are clean, healthy and breed well, then management is probably good, even if they are in smallish enclosures.
> 
> I have pointed out in an email that the nature of the document distributed by DVD will allow the reults to be skewed by any person or group to produce a bias favourable to the desired outcome. That may be the intention.
> 
> ...



Happy B'day.
Share the same day with my wife........


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## mungus (Aug 11, 2009)

I understand what MINIMUM means.............
IMO, the minimum sizes given are still to small.
The unfortunate side of this is that alot of breeders will use the minimum sizes stated, and be able to because its approved by DECC - simple as that.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2009)

She must be a good looking girl Mungus!

J.


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## shiregirl (Sep 3, 2009)

*bump*


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## Dar1stheory (Sep 3, 2009)

Hetty said:


> I don't think the changes will go ahead though, there's too much opposition from keepers.



Yeah... I don't remember asking for speeding tickets, increased rego costs or the GST... Think a few more people than the combined force of the Australian reptile keeper community might have had a few complaints about those things...

Pretty sure they'll do whatever the hell they want...


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## wokka (Sep 4, 2009)

DECC representatives will be at next Tuesday night's SOFAR meeting, to discuss the Draft Code of Practice for Private Reptile Keeping.


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## wokka (Sep 7, 2009)

DECC are supposed to have the Draft Code available at this meeting. Visitors welcome!


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## wokka (Sep 8, 2009)

7.30 pm tonight!


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## Slateman (Sep 8, 2009)

Ouch I just read this now. It is 9pm. To late for me.


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## shiregirl (Sep 10, 2009)

wokka said:


> DECC representatives will be at next Tuesday night's SOFAR meeting, to discuss the Draft Code of Practice for Private Reptile Keeping.


 
Any news please?


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## shiregirl (Oct 6, 2009)

Bump <_>


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## wokka (Oct 6, 2009)

A draft is now available for public comment. I dont know where you get it but DECC bought it to the SOFAR meeting.


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## shiregirl (Oct 6, 2009)

wokka said:


> A draft is now available for public comment. I dont know where you get it but DECC bought it to the SOFAR meeting.


 
I think you mean the one a page or two back?? Is that the one? The sizes proposed are resonable and a good start to work with if so.

Thanks


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## wokka (Oct 6, 2009)

No that is not what I meant. The code involves a lot more than just cage sizes. The latest edition is edition 2.0.


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