# Trivial Disputes.... Native vs Endemic...



## slim6y (Sep 25, 2010)

We're having an ongoing trivial dispute - it's tearing our family apart...

What is the difference between Native and Endemic (incidentally, my answer was correct, of course....).

Rather than to bias the discussion - place what you know...

And any other trivial disputes you'd like solved - I solve them all


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 25, 2010)

Haha.

Native - occurs naturally in that area (may be native to multiple areas).

Endemic - occurs naturally _only_ in that area.

That's my basic understanding of it anyway..


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## Kirby (Sep 25, 2010)

according the ye old dctionary 

Native- Indigenous. 

Endemic- Regularly found. can mean both introduced and indigenous. 

Although, somewhere down the track, even something indigenous where likely introduced from elsewhere. unless said species have evolved from within the area. 

very confusing tho


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## pinkmus (Sep 25, 2010)

Endemic species are only found in that one area or country. So that makes many Australian species endemic. Some however are also found elsewhere - GTP's etc. That's my understanding.

-Will


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## Andie (Sep 25, 2010)

I dont know about the official meanings but in general use, we seem to say that 'native' means 'found naturally in australia' and 'endemic' to mean 'a native found naturally in a specific area'. For example all bottlebrushes are 'native' but then there are some that are from particular regions and grow well there compared to other varieties.


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## slim6y (Sep 25, 2010)

Well - some seem to be getting the right idea  that's pretty good....

Though kirby, not so sure about your ye olde' dictionary.... Definitely confusing if that's the case!!!


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## Kirby (Sep 25, 2010)

simplified i guess, without going into indigenous, introduced etc. 

native in regards to a continent or country. endemic in regards to area?


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 25, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Haha.
> 
> Native - occurs naturally in that area (may be native to multiple areas).
> 
> ...


 
+1


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## syeph8 (Sep 25, 2010)

im pretty sure a species can be endemic to a country or continent also. just has to not be found anywhere else. 
i wonder how large a scale it could go to. like could something be endemic to the southern hemishpere? (i know the odds of an animal such as this existing is microscopic but humour me)


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## slim6y (Sep 25, 2010)

yeah... there we go.... I knew you'd come through for me syeph8.....


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 25, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> im pretty sure a species can be endemic to a country or continent also. just has to not be found anywhere else.
> i wonder how large a scale it could go to. like could something be endemic to the southern hemishpere? (i know the odds of an animal such as this existing is microscopic but humour me)


 
It can be used in that context. There are a number of plant species that are endemic to the Southern Hemisphere - not sure about animals.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 25, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> im pretty sure a species can be endemic to a country or continent also. just has to not be found anywhere else.
> i wonder how large a scale it could go to. like could something be endemic to the southern hemishpere? (i know the odds of an animal such as this existing is microscopic but humour me)




There would be thousands of species endemic to the southern hemisphere, anything endemic to australia is by definition endemic to the southern hemisphere as well.


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## Jay84 (Sep 26, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Haha.
> 
> Native - occurs naturally in that area (may be native to multiple areas).
> 
> ...


+1




Kirby said:


> according the ye old dctionary
> 
> Native- Indigenous.
> 
> ...


What dictionary are you reading from??


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## slim6y (Sep 26, 2010)

I love the google definitions:

Endemism is the ecological state of being unique to a particular geographic location, such as a specific island, habitat type, nation or other defined zone. To be endemic to a place or area means that it is found only in that part of the world and nowhere else...

In biogeography, a species is defined as indigenous or native to a given region or ecosystem if its presence in that region is the result of only natural processes, with no human intervention.


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## syeph8 (Sep 26, 2010)

slim6y said:


> yeah... there we go.... I knew you'd come through for me syeph8.....


 
i live to make you proud mate


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## da_donkey (Sep 27, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> im pretty sure a species can be endemic to a country or continent also. just has to not be found anywhere else.
> i wonder how large a scale it could go to. like could something be endemic to the southern hemishpere? (i know the odds of an animal such as this existing is microscopic but humour me)


 
polar bear


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 27, 2010)

Lol, as I was thinking of my response, I scrolled down and Melissa, you posted, verbatim, what I was thinking. So, yeh, what Melissa said!


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## slim6y (Sep 27, 2010)

So majority rules (regardless if it is correct or not) - and Melissa's suggestion must be correct....

What about pronunciation....

For example I say mandarin (for the small orange fruits) but my GF says mandarin.... (pronounced mandareen)... I end mine with rin... that's how it's spelt and sounds... surely....

Who is correct???

Is it mandarin with a rin or mandareen?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 27, 2010)

Ermmm, if you are implying that that is incorrect Slim, please, do enlighten us!


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## slim6y (Sep 27, 2010)

Google enlightened us


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 27, 2010)

Ahh, well I guess the majority is correct then! :S I gained no enlightenment though, I already knew that.  Guess it's back to the monastery for me.


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## 1issie (Sep 27, 2010)

Native:in aussie
Endemic:belonging or native not introcuced


With a Rin in mandarin


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

Next trivial dispute. 

Epidemic vs. Pandemic.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 27, 2010)

So would it be right to say GTPs are native to Australia and endemic to Far North QLD


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

mysnakesau said:


> So would it be right to say GTPs are native to Australia and endemic to Far North QLD



No.


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## Hetty (Sep 27, 2010)

Rin, Slimy 

I think pandemics are large (geographically) epidemics.


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

mysnakesau said:


> So would it be right to say GTPs are native to Australia and endemic to Far North QLD



No because they occur elsewhere. Roughies are endemic to the Kimberly, Oenpelli pythons are endemic to Ahnem Land, kangaroos are endemic to Australia Etc, they are all native to Australia


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> No because they occur elsewhere. Roughies are endemic to the Kimberly, Oenpelli pythons are endemic to Ahnem Land, *kangaroos are endemic to Australia Etc*



Bah bOw!


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Pandemic relates to disease but is still an epidemic whilst a plague of locust (not carrying disease) can still be classed as an epidemic. The plague of locusts reached epidemic proportions.


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Bah bOw!



?


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## syeph8 (Sep 27, 2010)

slim6y said:


> So majority rules (regardless if it is correct or not) - and Melissa's suggestion must be correct....
> 
> What about pronunciation....
> 
> ...


 
i always pronounced them "mandareen" only because there is a language mandarin and its easier to distinguish between the two. people know exaclty what you are talking about when you say "mandareen" although i do think its properly pronounced "manda-rin". IMO its "cass-tle" vs "car-stle" argument, so long as people understand what your saying perfectly well with no confusion, who cares? 

haha which brings to mind my cousin (23 year old who prides himself on his vast knowledge of the english language) who plays a lot of video games and one in particular, one of the new online shoot em ups has a function when you die, that you blow up and kill anyone standing next to you. this function is called martyrdom (for obvious reasons). even though he has been corrected a million times by myself and others, he still refers to it as matreedome... ?
it took me hours to figure out what the hell he was on about.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> ?



Macropods including kangaroos are _native_ to parts of Asia too.


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Macropods including kangaroos are _native_ to parts of Asia too.


 
Which kangaroos. I think they are native to Australia but belong to the Macropod family which contains species outside of Australia. The word kangaroo itself is derived from an Aboriginal language


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Which kangaroos. I think they are native to Australia but belong to the Macropod family which contains species outside of Australia. The word kangaroo itself is derived from an Aboriginal language



I was thinking specifically of tree kangaroos, but other macropods like agile wallabies are native to parts of asia too.


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## syeph8 (Sep 27, 2010)

da_donkey said:


> polar bear


 
now i know its only nautrally found in the northern hemisphere, but not everywhere in the northern hemishpere. not even most of the northern hemisphere. so would that fall into the definition of endemic to the northern hemisphere? or just the arctic circle? (although i am sure they definately could live outside the arcticle circle also.. im not really into polar bears) 
another exampe, lets look at something a little closer to home like the RSP which is endemic to the kimberlies, would you then be able to say that it is endemic to australia? because it is not present naturally throughout most of australia would it then just be an australian native, which is endemic to the kimberlies? 
this is the main point of confusion for me with the difference between endemic and native. i always thought that endemic was very specific.


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## cockney red (Sep 27, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> +1


 +2


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## grimbeny (Sep 27, 2010)

It is fine and correct to say that RSPs are endemic to Australia.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

cockney red said:


> +2



= 3


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

I had never even heard of a tree kangaroo. I think your being picky, LOL. Kangaroos as most relate to them are native to Australia


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> I had never even heard of a tree kangaroo. I think your being picky, LOL. Kangaroos as most relate to them are native to Australia


 
Native yes! Endemic (as per your original post) NO!


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes they are. Using your reasoning no Morelia _spp_ would be endemic to Australia or any part there off either, as the genus occurs outside of Australia


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## syeph8 (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Yes they are. Using your reasoning no Morelia _spp_ would be endemic to Australia or any part there off either, as the genus occurs outside of Australia


 
really? i didnt know that there were morelia spilota spilota, or cheynei or mcdowelli or imbricata elsewhere, or morelia carinata or oenpellis. these are all morelia subspecies that only occur in australia. the only two i can think of that occur outside australia are spilota variegata and viridis.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Yes they are. Using your reasoning no Morelia _spp_ would be endemic to Australia or any part there off either, as the genus occurs outside of Australia



By my reasoning and the reasoning of the definition of endemic, no Morelia spilota are not endemic to Australia.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> really? i didnt know that there were morelia spilota spilota, or cheynei or mcdowelli or imbricata elsewhere, or morelia carinata or oenpellis. these are all morelia subspecies that only occur in australia. the only two i can think of that occur outside australia are spilota variegata and viridis.



There's heaps of morelia outside of Australia, boeleni, amethystine, viridis, clastolepis, nauta, tracyae...


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Native yes! Endemic (as per your original post) NO!


 
+1


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

Just before anyone else jumps on it i will make the comment that there are no subspecies of morelia, because morelia is a genus not a species. There are subspecies of Morelia spilota that occur both in and outside of Australia naturally.


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Are the Western and Eastern grey kangaroo's and the Red kangaroo not endemic to Australia then?


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Are the Western and Eastern grey kangaroo's and the Red kangaroo not endemic to Australia then?



Well now you've gone and moved the goal posts!

But to humour you and put a bee right up your bonnet i will respond, by my understanding of the definition of endemic and say *no red and grey kangaroos are not endemic to Australia! *Because they only occur in parts of Australia, not all of Australia!


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Well now you've gone and moved the goal posts!
> 
> But to humour you and put a bee right up your bonnet i will respond, by my understanding of the definition of endemic and say *no red and grey kangaroos are not endemic to Australia! *Because they only occur in parts of Australia, not all of Australia!


 
Those species are endemic to Australia as far as I understand.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Those species are endemic to Australia as far as I understand.


 
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a trivial dispute! lol!!

See i would say native to Australia because they only occur in specific regions, not endemic.


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Well now you've gone and moved the goal posts!
> 
> But to humour you and put a bee right up your bonnet i will respond, by my understanding of the definition of endemic and say *no red and grey kangaroos are not endemic to Australia! *Because they only occur in parts of Australia, not all of Australia!


 
I guess you could say I moved the goal post, but when I originally posted I thought most would understand these were the kangaroo's I was talking about.
As for your argument, A martian would be able to say there endemic to planet earth and they would be correct. It depends on the context the word is used in.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> I guess you could say I moved the goal post, but when I originally posted I thought most would understand these were the kangaroo's I was talking about.
> As for your argument, *A martian would be able to say there endemic to planet earth and they would be correct*. It depends on the context the word is used in.



HAHAHAHA No they couldn't!


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Those species are endemic to Australia as far as I understand.



I think i might move my goal posts on the red kangaroo. I looked at their range and it pretty well covers all of Australia so i guess you could say endemic to Australia. This game is so much more fun than pictionary!


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, we have a trivial dispute! lol!!
> 
> See i would say native to Australia because they only occur in specific regions, not endemic.



Ha, indeed we do!

I understand your logic, and am unsure as to what context exactly the word can be used in. This is what I think anyway..

If those species of Kangaroo only occurred in a small and specific area of Australia, then I would say that they are endemic to that area (they would still be endemic to Australia though by definition I think?) However, as they are prevalent in many areas of Australia, but are found no where _outside_ of Australia, I would definitely say that they are endemic to Australia.


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

steve1 said:


> A martian would be able to say there endemic to planet earth and they would be correct. It depends on the context the word is used in.



Goal post needs to be moved again


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## junglepython2 (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, we have a trivial dispute! lol!!
> 
> See i would say native to Australia because they only occur in specific regions, not endemic.



They dont have to be found everywhere in an area to be considered endemic as far as Im aware.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree. Having looked at the range of eastern and western roos and red roos i think endemic could be used to describe reds but not the two greys (unless they are the same species, just diff populations or whatever) because there is a significantly large area of Australia that the two don't occur in. 



xxMelissaxx said:


> Ha, indeed we do!
> 
> I understand your logic, and am unsure as to what context exactly the word can be used in. This is what I think anyway..
> 
> If those species of Kangaroo only occurred in a small and specific area of Australia, then I would say that they are endemic to that area (they would still be endemic to Australia though by definition I think?) However, as they are prevalent in many areas of Australia, but are found no where _outside_ of Australia, I would definitely say that they are endemic to Australia.


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## slim6y (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm glad I've only started World War III....

Ok...

The roos are definitely NATIVES regardless of the fact they occur in other countries (for the roos that occur in other countries) - that's a given!

But the Northern Bettong is ENDEMIC to FNQ....


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

slim6y said:


> I'm glad I've only started World War III....
> 
> Ok...
> 
> ...


 
Aha! But is it Endemic to Queensland???


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I agree. Having looked at the range of eastern and western roos and red roos i think endemic could be used to describe reds but not the two greys (unless they are the same species, just diff populations or whatever) because there is a significantly large area of Australia that the two don't occur in.


 
There may be a large area that Greys do not occur in. However, the definition of endemic states that it must occur only in a specific area. It does not state that the species must cover *all* of the area entirely, but it must not occur outside of that area.

If the area we are referring to is Australia, then they would be classified as endemic.

Disclaimer: I only think all of the above, but do not know..could certainly be wrong.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

You see herein lies the problem. I don't count a _continent_ as a specific area. 



xxMelissaxx said:


> There may be a large area that Greys do not occur in. However, the definition of endemic states that it must occur only in a specific area. It does not state that the species must cover *all* of the area entirely, but it must not occur outside of that area.
> 
> If the area we are referring to is Australia, then they would be classified as endemic.
> 
> Disclaimer: I only think all of the above, but do not know..could certainly be wrong.


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Aha! But is it Endemic to Queensland???


 
Yes it is.

However, depending on the context, I think they may be able to correctly be labeled as endemic to Australia also?


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## -Peter (Sep 27, 2010)

Morelia spilota is a pandemic species native to Australian Papua New Guinea and Western Papua. Morelia spilota spilota is an endemic subspecies native to Eastern NSW


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> You see herein lies the problem. I don't count a _continent_ as a specific area.


 
That was where I was initially confused also, and as you do, I thought that the area had to be relatively small and specific.

However, I read a journal article yesterday that was referring to a specific plant species and it was stated that it is endemic to the Southern Hemisphere..


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> However, depending on the context, I think they may be able to correctly be labeled as endemic to Australia also?



I think i have a silver bullet for this argument. _Native_ i think is the most correct term to describe the Northern Rainforest Golden Mained Marmoset Bettong in the context or Queensland, whereas _Endemic_ is the most correct term in the context of North Queensland.



-Peter said:


> Morelia spilota is a pandemic species native to Australian Papua New Guinea and Western Papua. Morelia spilota spilota is an endemic subspecies native to Eastern NSW



BOoYa! Peter comes with a terminoligy smack down with words no one ever knew could be used like that!


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> That was where I was initially confused also, and as you do, I thought that the area had to be relatively small and specific.
> 
> However, I read a journal article yesterday that was referring to a specific plant species and it was stated that it is endemic to the Southern Hemisphere..



in light of Peter's Smackdown response, i'm gonna call your journal on it's terminology and call that plant 'pandemic!'


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## slim6y (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I think i have a silver bullet for this argument. _Native_ i think is the most correct term to describe the Northern Rainforest Golden Mained Marmoset Bettong in the context or Queensland, whereas _Endemic_ is the most correct term in the context of North Queensland.
> 
> 
> B I N G O W A S H I S N A M E O


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## Darlyn (Sep 27, 2010)

I think that the two words are not mutually exclusive so in some cases both can be used and be the correct terminology.
Depends how pedantic one wants to be.


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with you waruikazi, and I don't think either are incorrect.

I work with a research student that I have engaged in many trivial disputes..ha, so I'll see if he can define things a little more specifically for me.



Darlyn said:


> I think that the two words are not mutually exclusive so in some cases both can be used and be the correct terminology.
> Depends how pedantic one wants to be.



I agree with the above - I think that a species can be defined with multiple terms, and still be correct with each one to an extent. Eg. an endemic species is also native to that area etc.


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> in light of Peter's Smackdown response, i'm gonna call your journal on it's terminology and call that plant 'pandemic!'


 
...but does the word 'pandemic' convey the fact that the species _only_ occurs in the Southern Hemisphere? If the aim was to place emphasis on this fact, then I can see how the use of 'endemic' would be appropriate..


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## grimbeny (Sep 27, 2010)

The word endemic does not specify how small a region must be for it to be considered an area. All multicelluar animals that are known to science are endemic to the planet earth.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

grimbeny said:


> The word endemic does not specify how small a region must be for it to be considered an area. All multicelluar animals that are known to science are endemic to the planet earth.


 
But the word endemic does specify that the area must be specific! 

So i guess the real trivial dispute is what does specific specify?


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> But the word endemic does specify that the area must be specific!
> 
> So i guess the real trivial dispute is what does specific specify?


 
A country, continent or region is a specific area as it is defined and distinguished from other such areas.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> A country, continent or region is a specific area as it is defined and distinguished from other such areas.



Right! So, with the above in mind, in the case of the Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur that can only be found ontop of the highest peaks of Mt Thebarton, which is the correct term? 

The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is native to Australia.
The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is endemic to Australia.
The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is native to Mt Thebarton.
The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is endemic to Mt Thebarton.


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Right! So, with the above in mind, in the case of the Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur that can only be found ontop of the highest peaks of Mt Thebarton, which is the correct term?
> 
> The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is native to Australia.
> The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is endemic to Australia.
> ...


 
Now we're getting down to business!

Technically, I think all of the above are correct. I can see how some are more specific than others, and perhaps also more accurate.

I guess it really depends on the context, and what is being discussed. I imagine all of the above examples could be used appropriately in different writings.

I would personally use the more specific examples that refer directly to Mt Thebarton. This does not mean that by definition the others are not correct though.


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## waruikazi (Sep 27, 2010)

Hrrmmm right. 

So i guess the only definitive difference between 'native' and 'endemic' is the spelling and that 'endemic' is mutually exclusive whereas 'native' is not?


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## xxMelissaxx (Sep 27, 2010)

Appears so, but really, I don't know enough to state it for a fact.

I have never had to use either word in an academic context, so essentially, I am just picking apart quite basic definitions of the words. Obviously, things may have been omitted from these definitions and that may change things.

Based on what I know anyway, it's my best guess.


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## Sock Puppet (Sep 28, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Right! So, with the above in mind, in the case of the Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur that can only be found ontop of the highest peaks of Mt Thebarton, which is the correct term?
> 
> The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is native to Australia.
> The Purple Hooded Brown Tree Banded Limur is endemic to Australia.
> ...


 
I would say points 1 & 4 would be the correct terminology.
For example corroboree frogs are a native Aussie frog endemic to the alpine region.


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## slim6y (Sep 28, 2010)

Sock Puppet said:


> I would say points 1 & 4 would be the correct terminology.
> For example corroboree frogs are a native Aussie frog endemic to the alpine region.


 
This is exactly as I would see it (+1 seems to be what the others would say here)


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## -Peter (Sep 28, 2010)

Sock Puppet said:


> I would say points 1 & 4 would be the correct terminology.
> For example corroboree frogs are a native Aussie frog endemic to the alpine region.



Basically, just a reductionist approach to my earlier post.


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## Sock Puppet (Sep 28, 2010)

-Peter said:


> Basically, just a reductionist approach to my earlier post.



Possibly, I came onto this thread late so only breezed over earlier posts. Apologies if I was being repetitious.


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## grimbeny (Sep 28, 2010)

I think 1 to 4 are correct, definatly all are used in an academic context.


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