# Another croc caught



## Darlyn (May 15, 2011)

After a massive wet season crocs are on the move

Croc caught stalking kids | News | NT News | Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia | ntnews.com.au


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## Nighthawk (May 15, 2011)

At least they're relocating rather than shooting. I can't say he looks too comfortable the way they tied him up though...


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

Crocodiles will only stalk if they see a food source, and they will only see a food source in the water or on the river bank. I'm glad they haven't killed the croc, but don't see why wild animals should be relocated when humans can be taught how to keep safe around them.


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

It should be shot. There is little point in relocating them, they end up back where they started with the only difference being they are more wise to the traps and more dangerous. 

Crocs and people don't mix. 'Cheeky' crocs either need to be sent to farms (where they end up shot or in a cage where they may aswell be dead anyway) or killed.


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

Can we relocate people and send them to farms if they fail to understand that crocodiles live in the river systems of northern Australia?


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> Can we relocate people and send them to farms if they fail to understand that crocodiles live in the river systems of northern Australia?



Let me guess, you live in melbourne? Or Brisbane, Adelaide... etc???

What would you do if you saw a taipan in your backyard. Tell me honestly what you would do.


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

I live in the northern parts of Qld, have seen many crocodiles, been up close to them in the Daintree River, and have also had a close encounter with an Eastern Brown, as well as other snakes in our yard.


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> I live in the northern parts of Qld, have seen many crocodiles, been up close to them in the Daintree River, and have also had a close encounter with an Eastern Brown, as well as other snakes in our yard.



So tell me. What did you do?


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

I think you're being rude, but will answer the question anyway. What did I do with the Eastern Brown? Nothing, I left it. That one was not in our yard. It was at the river. The person it bit was strapped the way I was taught during a first aid course and taken to hospital. Eastern Browns do not have a good biting technique, so the venom was injected into the skin, but didn't make it into the blood stream. We were 30 minutes from town, no phone range. As for the snake my daughter found near us, it went to the vet because we had no wildlife carers who could take it in, which is why I'm looking at doing that instead of being an owner. I think there might be far more use for another wildlife carer for reptiles than for another snake owner in this area.


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> I think you're being rude, but will answer the question anyway. What did I do with the Eastern Brown? Nothing, I left it. That one was not in our yard. It was at the river. The person it bit was strapped the way I was taught during a first aid course and taken to hospital. Eastern Browns do not have a good biting technique, so the venom was injected into the skin, but didn't make it into the blood stream. We were 30 minutes from town, no phone range. As for the snake my daughter found near us, it went to the vet because we had no wildlife carers who could take it in, which is why I'm looking at doing that instead of being an owner. I think there might be far more use for another wildlife carer for reptiles than for another snake owner in this area.



Rude? How have i come off as rude? 

As for your story. It is a good story but not really what i was getting at. 

The point i'm trying to make in comparing you finding a snake in your backyard to crocodiles is this. If you find a dangerous snake in your home most normal people would have it removed because it is posing a threat to you. The snake was there first but the threat that snake poses to you and your families' safety outweighs it's right to live where it chooses. So that snake is relocated and you never see it again. 

Ok so now lets change that snake for a crocodile. A large dangerous animal that will hunt you and your family. First idea you have is relocate it, you do that but it comes back. You try to relocate again but it returns again only it's harder to catch this time. It is an animal that poses a genuine threat to your life. 

I think human life is far more important than any animal. The threat needs to be removed and it can only be removed by being killed.


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## sookie (May 15, 2011)

Ven wild snakes you have to take each case on it's own merits.and as for crocs stalking kids,human are ignorant and selfish,know it all race.and many people will swim where sharks have been spotted off our coasts,surfboarders etc.warning signs and the like won't stop people from doing their own free will,hence the croc does what comes to his freewill.i think it may be time for a culling of the crocs,what with the recent floods etc.


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

I think it's rather arrogant to assume human life is more important than animal life. If humans died out, the world would continue running, probably far healthier than it is right now. If worms, for instance, ceased to exist, it would affect the running of the planet.

As for being rude, posing a question in that manner came across as rude.

Different people think in different ways, and I believe it's far better to stay away from the river systems in the NT than to relocate crocodiles that have ever right to be there, and who were there first.

Going back to the snakes, I guess the fact that we live near a hill, and the fact that there is nothing here for them to feed on, means they won't stick around for long and will end up back at the hill. We live in NQ, it's snake season, far better to educate people on how to keep clear than to cull or relocate IMO.

Yes I did know the family who lost their 5 year old in the Daintree River in January '09 and as much as I'm saddened by the loss of a young life, I'm also pleased that the croc was sedated, had the child surgically removed, and was taken to a breeding farm where he will live out his life fertilising the eggs of the lady crocodile rather than being culled.

I'm against harm to animals, it's what I believe and who I am, and I'm sorry that people find it a difficult concept. I don't think anything I say will be agreed upon by others, which is ok, but I think that's all I can say on the topic.


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## JAS101 (May 15, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> Can we relocate people and send them to farms if they fail to understand that crocodiles live in the river systems of northern Australia?


 
if it was only that easy , even better just put a bullet in there head .


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## ianinoz (May 15, 2011)

Much as I agree that large salties have their place and are essential apex predators in the north, and that it's a good idea to educate children and locals (mostly fishermen) to ensure that they don't encourage these big salties to hang about areas frequented by people and more importantly where children are likely to be found. 

I can also see good reasons to kill crocs who pose a menace to people if they can not be removed to either a croc farm or a more remote area (I've heard big crocs are territorial and will return to their territory unless this is made impossible and my father was a professional croc hunter in FNQLD (Normanton and Weipa area) in the 1930s and some of the stories he told about their behavior were terrifying).

There is also the problem of tourists (Australians from the southern states who are not experienced with being near crocs, and internationals who will have no idea what so ever of the danger posed by these animals). 
Like sharks, they need to kept away from people by the most appropriate means, capture, relocation or killing.


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> I think it's rather arrogant to assume human life is more important than animal life. If humans died out, the world would continue running, probably far healthier than it is right now. If worms, for instance, ceased to exist, it would affect the running of the planet. I think there needs to be a balance but i draw the line when people are put in danger.
> 
> As for being rude, posing a question in that manner came across as rude. I would say harden up, but that may come across as rude :lol: C'mon, how can you read emotion into a question written as simply as that?! Being rude wasn't my intention, i'm sorry if it came off that way.
> 
> ...


 

I don't want you to leave this conversation, i don't agree with your opinions but i do enjoy having these conversations.


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## Firepac (May 15, 2011)

Maybe this needs a bit of perspective.... since the white man settled the north their has been on average one recorded death every 4 years. I wonder how many people have been killed by horses in the same period, maybe we should cull them. Or worse how many kids die in backyard swimming pools, we get the numbers below 10 a year and we get Laurie Lawrence singing a stupid song doing the 'five'. Let's ban backyard pools. I could go on but i'm sure you get my point.


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## Darlyn (May 15, 2011)

Firepac said:


> Maybe this needs a bit of perspective.... since the white man settled the north their has been on average one recorded death every 4 years. I wonder how many people have been killed by horses in the same period, maybe we should cull them. Or worse how many kids die in backyard swimming pools, we get the numbers below 10 a year and we get Laurie Lawrence singing a stupid song doing the 'five'. Let's ban backyard pools. I could go on but i'm sure you get my point.



Actually in the last 3 years in the Top End a 20 yr old man, an 11 year old girl and an 11 year old boy have all been killed by crocs, the latest in about Feb this year, so the rate of deaths is increasing. Which makes sense due to the increase in the amount of crocs there are nowadays. We also have some very stupid ads telling people to stay out of the water and be croc wise.


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## Cockney_Red (May 15, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Actually in the last 3 years in the Top End a 20 yr old man, an 11 year old girl and an 11 year old boy have all been killed by crocs, the latest in about Feb this year, so the rate of deaths is increasing. Which makes sense due to the increase in the amount of crocs there are nowadays. We also have some very stupid ads telling people to stay out of the water and be croc wise.


 
What is stupid about educating people in croc awareness....we could of course go back to pre 70's and kill the buggers....


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> What is stupid about educating people in croc awareness....we could of course go back to pre 70's and kill the buggers....



They're just silly ads lol.

If territorians are dead set on the life style we have chosen then, particularly in the darwin area, we will need to do somethign very similar.


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## longqi (May 15, 2011)

I think crocs are wonderful creatures in their own environment
But unless you have been in outback NT no-one else can imagine what the future problems are going to be

The crocs are big and getting bigger
They are showing themselves regularly and many convey zero fear of humans
Every year there are more and more reported attacks
The numbers of small crocs is huge and increasing every season

I have fished there for many years
This year is the first time I really felt nervous
Admittedly I was in the outback
But that river is vastly over stocked
So some of them will move to newer pastures and probably into more settled areas

A crocodile is very different to any snake
It is a mincing machine with legs and not something you can play around with
They can and do travel vast distances with excellent homing instinct
Swimming holes that people have used for years are now full of warning signs

Hopefully a few tourists will get munched on soon
Then maybe new guidelines will be put in place

Regardless of their protected rating if 50 big white pointers moved into Sydney harbour and stayed there something would be done about them very quickly
More than 100 crocs get moved from just Darwin harbour every year and this number is steadily increasing


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Pretty sure the number is closer to 200 Longqi. 

We had 5 shot this year out the front of our school.


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## Firepac (May 15, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> Actually in the last 3 years in the Top End a 20 yr old man, an 11 year old girl and an 11 year old boy have all been killed by crocs, the latest in about Feb this year, so the rate of deaths is increasing. Which makes sense due to the increase in the amount of crocs there are nowadays. We also have some very stupid ads telling people to stay out of the water and be croc wise.



Still only one a year, FAR less than bees, snakes, horses, sharks, HUMANS etc


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## Cockney_Red (May 15, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> They're just silly ads lol.
> 
> If territorians are dead set on the life style we have chosen then, particularly in the darwin area, we will need to do somethign very similar.


 
Been half a dozen shark attacks on NSW coast in the Summer, but us Cockroaches know the score...


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

Ok, we are plant eaters, not meat eaters so fishing is not something we would do as a family for food or any other reason. So I can't relate to fishing or hunting for food, only for protecting animals large and small and preserving natural environments. I don't see humans as superior in the whole grand scheme of the planet. I don't like the attitude people have of "the only good snake is a dead one" or similar for any other animal they would rather wasn't near them.


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Firepac said:


> Still only one a year, FAR less than bees, snakes, horses, sharks, HUMANS etc



If you remove people and domesticated animals from your list, the danger of all of those animals is taken into account and action is taken when they turn up in areas where they will interact with people.


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## Darlyn (May 15, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> What is stupid about educating people in croc awareness....we could of course go back to pre 70's and kill the buggers....



I never said educating people was stupid. I said the ads were stupid.
They are spending a large amount of money on ads that are not very educational, don't deliver the message succintly
and therefore IMO they are stupid. The government has decreed that there will be a 50km exclusion zone for crocs around the Darwin area (which is also stupid) so some people will take them at their word and assume thay are safe when they obviously wont be.
Kneejerk reaction to the death of a young girl.


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## waruikazi (May 15, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> Ok, we are plant eaters, not meat eaters so fishing is not something we would do as a family for food or any other reason. So I can't relate to fishing or hunting for food, only for protecting animals large and small and preserving natural environments. I don't see humans as superior in the whole grand scheme of the planet. I don't like the attitude people have of "the only good snake is a dead one" or similar for any other animal they would rather wasn't near them.



If that is your honest outlook, then i think that is a very twisted idea of life and could only be held by someone who has a very pivelidged and narrow life experience.


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

My life experience is neither narrow nor priveleged, and it isn't a twisted idea, it's the way I view life. The animals are not here for us to do what we like with them, we need to learn to live safely around them. Anyway, I'm not going to change my mind on this, nor am I looking at changing the mind of anyone else. I've said how I felt, thank you for the discussion but it's going to keep going around and around in circles now. I have to say, though, that I'm an educator and am well travelled, and like to show my daughter different places so she can see for herself rather than just watching it on TV, looking it up on the internet, or reading about it in books. All these can make good references, but nothing beats real experience. Have a good night.


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## SteveNT (May 15, 2011)

Southern mob have nothing in their experience bag to do with things that eat you while you are going about your daily business.

There are things that can kill you but therein lies the difference. 100,000 years ago in Oz there were several species of snakes that could easily eat humans but they are all gone. No snake today in Oz can eat a person (although I know of some that have tried). Crocodiles will take any opportunity to grab a kid and the big fellas will go an adult. They eat you.

Indigenous mob (your point Gordo) hunt and fish for sustenance. There are no supermarkets in the Communities and most of the diet is obtained from the bush. If there were monsters that can take a buffalo with ease stalking your kids in your backyard how would you feel?

Since they were given protection numbers have reached pre hunting levels. The 5 meter + guys remember shooting and are cagey around people. Now we have 3 meter+ crocs with no fear of humans whatsoever. 

I love crocs, nothing makes the heart race like seeing a big fella up close. But make no mistake if my family or self were threatened I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the bugger. And that is how community people feel about the issue.


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## Darlyn (May 15, 2011)

I think a lot of people don't understand that that these communites have been living and fishing in the
areas for many years with no problems with crocodiles. However as the poplution of crocs grows so does their territory
which increases the likihood of bigger problems in the future and no one is addressing this issue.
Sure humans are generally pretty stupid when it comes to croc safety but alot of the deaths
are locals, many who have believed the area safe because of previous activities in the same area.


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## guzzo (May 15, 2011)

Was out fishing at Saltwater Arm yesterday and was plucking in the crab pots when a 4 mtr + popped up beside us.........It was dark and I had the heeby geebys after that.......As I was standing in my 4.1 mtr tinny I could not help but thinking that I would never stand right on the waters edge after dark........but somehow standing in my boat....right in the middle of the water was much safer?????.......I am starting to lose my nerve a bit these days especially when old Poppy missjudged the tide and we had to poke right up these little mangrove choked gutters to get our pots back.


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## hypochondroac (May 16, 2011)

Here's an idea.. move.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> It should be shot. There is little point in relocating them, they end up back where they started with the only difference being they are more wise to the traps and more dangerous.
> 
> Crocs and people don't mix. 'Cheeky' crocs either need to be sent to farms (where they end up shot or in a cage where they may aswell be dead anyway) or killed.


 
So you say that crocs become aware of the traps after being caught? This is displaying (to some degree) cognitive thought. Pretty interesting for longqi's thread. Hope you don't mind me pinching this quote.


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## chilli-mudcrab (May 16, 2011)

hypochondroac said:


> Here's an idea.. move.



Victoria? Never!


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

This thing about three deaths in three years is so wrong
Just two weeks ago a community man was taken at a creek mouth
One month before that a kid was taken with the brother as a witness so thats two in two months
Im way out of touch with the Top End now but even I know that much
Two more around the Daintree in Qld within the last two years
Three years ago there also three within a short period one in the Daly one kid in a creek and one in Arnhem land
How many others have disappeared from out lying communities recently???

As someone [sorry but I forgot your name] here so rightly pointed out on the last page
The local communities rely on hunting and foraging for food
Remember food
Up there it doesnt come from Mackas or KFC and there are no Woolworths for 100s of kilometres
So they have no option but to get their own especially during the wet when they may be cut off for months on end

Maybe the crocs have some rights to live
But so do the local people

Im sure this will have been said before somewhere but the local people can hunt native animals
One day maybe they will simply get jack of all the crocs and clean them right out of a few areas
Imagine the stink then from people down south

I would never be in favour of exterminating them and to see a wild croc is a great experience
But culling will have to taken as an option very soon or the place will be crawling with them
Another 10 years and there will be more than a few that reach 6metres
That size croc may be a tourist attraction but its also a big mean hungry machine


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> My life experience is neither narrow nor priveleged, and it isn't a twisted idea, it's the way I view life. The animals are not here for us to do what we like with them, we need to learn to live safely around them. Anyway, I'm not going to change my mind on this, nor am I looking at changing the mind of anyone else. I've said how I felt, thank you for the discussion but it's going to keep going around and around in circles now. I have to say, though, that I'm an educator and am well travelled, and like to show my daughter different places so she can see for herself rather than just watching it on TV, looking it up on the internet, or reading about it in books. All these can make good references, but nothing beats real experience. Have a good night.



Unless you have lived in remote areas of North Qld, NT or WA where there is no trapping or controlling of crocodile numbers your life experience is narrow in this respect of living with crocodiles. Visiting doesn't cut the mustad and to be able to feed your family and keep them healthy on a purely vegetarian diet makes you very privelidged.

Longqi there is some controversey whether that young fella (i actually taught him back in 2009) in Millingimbi was killed by a croc or simply drowned. But you are right, people go missing up here all the time (one fella here disappeared last weekend, the locals blame black magic) and because we are remote there is ne real investigation into them. I wonder how many of these people may have actually been taken by a croc.


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## eitak (May 16, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> I think it's rather arrogant to assume human life is more important than animal life.
> 
> I'm against harm to animals, it's what I believe and who I am, and I'm sorry that people find it a difficult concept.


 
Just out of curiosity - Are you a vegetarian??


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## Darlyn (May 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> This thing about three deaths in three years is so wrong
> Just two weeks ago a community man was taken at a creek mouth
> One month before that a kid was taken with the brother as a witness so thats two in two months


 
I forgot about the man missing from Galawinku, but they havent confirmed that as a croc attack. I wasn't including Qld in my figures, just the Top End. But either way the rate of fatalities is increasing and there is no long term plan even being discussed by government.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

Darlyn said:


> I forgot about the man missing from Galawinku, but they havent confirmed that as a croc attack. I wasn't including Qld in my figures, just the Top End. But either way the rate of fatalities is increasing and there is no long term plan even being discussed by government.



I'm thinking of a different person then... so that's an extra fatality that could be attributed to crocs. 

As soon as a croc gets to be a problem in a community it's shot by someone. Traps really only go in when it can't be found.


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## Inspiration (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Unless you have lived in remote areas of North Qld, NT or WA where there is no trapping or controlling of crocodile numbers your life experience is narrow in this respect of living with crocodiles. Visiting doesn't cut the mustad and to be able to feed your family and keep them healthy on a purely vegetarian diet makes you very privelidged.



Like I said, I actually DO live in these parts 

I have visited other places like SEQld, Victoria, NSW, but live in the northern parts of Qld.



eitak said:


> Just out of curiosity - Are you a vegetarian??



Yes, dairy free vegetarian and we only use eggs if our friends free-range rescue chickens are laying. Why's that?


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

Where have you lived exactly?



Inspiration said:


> Like I said, I actually DO live in these parts
> 
> I have visited other places like SEQld, Victoria, NSW, but live in the northern parts of Qld.
> 
> ...


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## Inspiration (May 16, 2011)

Way to take out anonymity a little huh. I mentioned knowing the little boy who was taken in early '09 and his family in the Daintree area but I don't want to say exactly where I'm living. We have been around crocodiles and snakes forever, and the house we've lived in for the last 6 years is near bushland which I absolutely love. I've lived in the northern parts of Qld for 31 years.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

What we are trying to say to you is that not everywhere or everyones life style can be compared. The crocodile situation in the daintree and other heavily populated areas is wildly different than it is in places like where i am living.


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## Inspiration (May 16, 2011)

And all I'm saying is that I don't agree with "Let's cull them" being the default reaction of humans when animals get in the way when they are only doing what they have been doing since before humans were in existence. Gee whiz, lol. I don't agree with it, I can't agree with it, it's simply who I am as a person to not want animals to be harmed. No amount of questioning from people will change my mind on that. I've come to the conclusions over time through education, not because I don't know any different. I see you are trying to get me to say they should be killed, that's not going to happen, so that's why I'm over this back and forth, round in circles discussion.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

You're right it is going around in circles. I'm not convinced that you do have an understanding of the situation in remote communities and as such i don't think you can pass judgement on what is happening in them.


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## Inspiration (May 16, 2011)

You're making assumptions about me and my life, trying to discredit where I live and what I know in order to somehow prove me wrong. There is no right or wrong, there is only opinions and yours does not count more than mine, and I do not need to prove my knowlege to understand that we simply have different standings on this.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

I'm asking you to explain but you are refusing to. We can't all be right, there is a right and a wrong in this scenario.


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## eitak (May 16, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> Yes, dairy free vegetarian and we only use eggs if our friends free-range rescue chickens are laying. Why's that?


 
Because if you weren't some things you have said would be hypocritical . . 

But back to killing crocs it comes down to kill or be killed . . If it was you or your family at risk would you let a croc be a risk to your families life?


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## Inspiration (May 16, 2011)

If it's down to a "kill or be killed" scenario then I guess it's more about survival than actual killing. Like, it's wrong to murder but if someone goes at you and you defend yourself, and that person dies by, say, being stabbed by the knife they tried to stab you with, it's not really murder.

And no, I don't think there is a right or wrong. I see you don't like being wrong, and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I have a different version of right to what you have. I'm not asking you to defend why you are saying what you're saying, I'm simply accepting that you have your own opinion and you've shared it, same as I have, so I don't really get what more you want? I'm not changing my views on this and not explaining myself further because I find it quite a bore that you can't seem to grasp that people can think different to yourself and NOT be a Victorian.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

If the white man never invaded Australia, I'm sure all the people that live up there would be contending with crocs, probably in greater numbers than they do now, correct? So why bother kulling the crocodiles? 

If these people that are getting taken are stupid enough to get taken, then so be it. They should learn to live with them.


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## saximus (May 16, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> If these people that are getting taken are stupid enough to get taken, then so be it. They should learn to live with them.


 Would you say the same thing if one of these stupid people was a member of your family?


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## eitak (May 16, 2011)

saximus said:


> Would you say the same thing if one of these stupid people was a member of your family?


 
Agreed, how disrespectful calling someone who had such a horrible death stupid!

Some of these people were children would you tell their parents "so be it"


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

saximus said:


> Would you say the same thing if one of these stupid people was a member of your family?


 
I'd be devastated if a member of my family died from a croc attack, but I would also recognise it was their own stupidity that got them killed.

I'd be devastated if a member of my family OD'd on smack, but I wouldn't ignore the fact that they made the decision to stick the needle in their vein.



eitak said:


> Agreed, how disrespectful calling someone who had such a horrible death stupid!
> 
> Some of these people were children would you tell their parents "so be it"


 
Omg... Stop being so sensitive.

I never said it wasn't horrible and upsetting, I said it was a stupid death. Could have been avoided if common sense was utilised.


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## ianinoz (May 16, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> Southern mob have nothing in their experience bag to do with things that eat you while you are going about your daily business.
> 
> There are things that can kill you but therein lies the difference. 100,000 years ago in Oz there were several species of snakes that could easily eat humans but they are all gone. No snake today in Oz can eat a person (although I know of some that have tried). Crocodiles will take any opportunity to grab a kid and the big fellas will go an adult. They eat you.
> 
> ...


 
Wasn't so long ago (in living memory) that there were saltys 9 - 10m long up north. 
The ones we have now are getting more numerous, bigger, and more dangerous and it's a miracle that more people aren't taken by them, especially in the more remote areas, keep in mind a salty wont just hunt in the water, but will also hunt on land and you can not outrun a salty who has decided you're going to be it's next meal and who is hot persuit. Climbing a tree is not much help either as they will simply wait for you to either fall out of it or come down (when you are dying of thirst).

An apex predator who sees people as a source of food and has no fear of people is a dangerous problem. I'm not convinced relocating large salty's who are stalking people is either desireable (these animals are highly territorial and relocating such an animal will bring it into conflict with the local alpha males and alpha females in it's new location - they are likely to maime it or kill it or it them) or practical in most instances. Better to either capture it and send it to a zoo or croc farm as breeding stock or shoot it.

For the record, I live in NSW, but have lived and worked in the Pilbura (on the coast) and have travelled up north on touring / fishing safaris. 

I believe decisions need to made by people who live in salty infested areas rather than by beaurocrats and greenies and academics who live south of the Tropic of Capricorn who don't have to live with the consequences of their decisions and the laws they make.


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## mmafan555 (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Let me guess, you live in melbourne? Or Brisbane, Adelaide... etc???
> 
> What would you do if you saw a taipan in your backyard. Tell me honestly what you would do.



Wouldn't kill it..It is a fast moving alert elapid..meaning it would almost be impossible to accidentally step on it. If I was ignorant and knew nothing about snakes than maybe I would kill it. A death adder would be more dangerous as it wouldn't move out of your way. So you could accidentally step on it. Still wouldn't kill it through and even if I took a bite it wouldn't be the end of the world. I would just go and get the anti-venom and be fine.

Their are only a few snakes that I would even think about killing( if they were on my property) and they would all be certain types of vipers( sluggish ambush predators that won't move out of your way and can cause long term damage even with antivenom)


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## ianinoz (May 16, 2011)

guzzo said:


> Was out fishing at Saltwater Arm yesterday and was plucking in the crab pots when a 4 mtr + popped up beside us.........It was dark and I had the heeby geebys after that.......As I was standing in my 4.1 mtr tinny I could not help but thinking that I would never stand right on the waters edge after dark........but somehow standing in my boat....right in the middle of the water was much safer?????.......I am starting to lose my nerve a bit these days especially when old Poppy missjudged the tide and we had to poke right up these little mangrove choked gutters to get our pots back.


 
I had a similar experience at Derby in 2000, I was using a castenet to catch bait from a little beach to use as bait from the jetty and a big (no idea how big) salty showed (all I saw it's head), suppose it was curious and checking me out. 

The locals told me it's not the saltys you see you need to worry about..... it's the ones who stalking you and waiting for the chance to grab you and who you wont see (until it's too late) you need to worry about.
They told me never go the same spot near the water twice, and never enter the water if you can't see the bottom.
Needless to say I was spooked by that croc and gave bait collecting a miss.

I am always on edge when I travel up north and go for flick along river banks and beaches there especially if the water is muddy, really don't like being close to water in areas where I know there are saltys about. Does that make a coward ? don't know, I'd rather be a live coward than croc food.

I've no such quarms with big sharks, or snakes. I've had many encounters with both.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Kawasaki
A lot of the time it is not stupidity
fair enough if a Tourist gets munched after swimming in a hole with warning signs
But too many other incidents are happening and seem to be increasing

I lived in Cairns and surrounds for years and know the whole cape pretty well
The Daintree has a few crocs
If you are lucky you can see one

In the East Aligator they are simply everywhere and are showing no fear at all
Even big ones just lie on the banks and watch you floating past
The mouth of the river on a run out tide is frightening to watch
That is vastly different to the Daintree where you can dive in to retrieve a favourite lure some of the time
[that may be really dumb but it was my last gold bomber]


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## mmafan555 (May 16, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> I think it's rather arrogant to assume human life is more important than animal life. If humans died out, the world would continue running, probably far healthier than it is right now. If worms, for instance, ceased to exist, it would affect the running of the planet.
> 
> .



I obviously would defend my life and the life of a loved one against any animal to the best of my abilities. But if you actullay look at are place in nature...it becomes pretty obvious that we are on the same exact playing field as every other species that inhabits this earth. The whole religious bullcrap about God making humans superior and that animals were put on the earth for our pleasure is nonsense. If we are so superior according to "Gods" creation than why has 1/4 of all human deaths caused by an insect bite? For such an "inferior" animal insects sure are able to do alot of damage to humans


And plus Crocs are relatively easy to avoid compared to other large dangerous animals like Lions, Tigers and Elephants.


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## ianinoz (May 16, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> If the white man never invaded Australia, I'm sure all the people that live up there would be contending with crocs, probably in greater numbers than they do now, correct? So why bother kulling the crocodiles?
> 
> If these people that are getting taken are stupid enough to get taken, then so be it. They should learn to live with them.


 
The aboriginals who lived in northern Australia in areas occupied by saltys prior to colonisation had no choice about it. Their stone age weapons were no match for a big salty. 


I think you are also missing the point that big saltys will stalk their target and you need not be acting stupidly to be taken by of these animals. They will seek you out if they have decided you are prey.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> Wouldn't kill it..It is a fast moving alert elapid..meaning it would almost be impossible to accidentally step on it. If I was ignorant and knew nothing about snakes than maybe I would kill it. A death adder would be more dangerous as it wouldn't move out of your way. So you could accidentally step on it. Still wouldn't kill it through and even if I took a bite it wouldn't be the end of the world. I would just go and get the anti-venom and be fine.
> 
> Their are only a few snakes that I would even think about killing( if they were on my property) and they would all be certain types of vipers( sluggish ambush predators that won't move out of your way and can cause long term damage even with antivenom)


 Mr Fan

I wasn't eluding that a snake that was encountered should be killed, i was trying to make the point that the animal needs to be removed for everyone's safety. Snakes just happen to be good candidates for relocation, they can be released unharmed. Crocodiles are not good candidates for relocation. I think the problem animals should be removed, if that means shooting them then i am fine with that, if a croc farm wants it then i am all for them removing the animal and keeping it too. Either way the problem has been removed.


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## mmafan555 (May 16, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Wasn't so long ago (in living memory) that there were saltys 9 - 10m long up north.
> 
> .


 
Maybe I ( and others) would take you more seriously if you actullay had even the slightest clue/knowledge on what you are talking about. Their is no such thing as a 9-10m salty...Not now and not in the past. 

From Aussie croc expert Adam Britton

"The saltwater crocodile is the largest living crocodilian species based on confirmed measurements. It is also the world's largest living reptile in terms of mass. Adult males can reach sizes of up to 6 meters (20 feet) with possible reports of exceptionally rare individuals of nearly 7 metres (23 feet). However, the largest confirmed individual was measured as 20.7 feet (6.3 metres) taking into account partial tail loss. There is always a lot of interest over the largest ever recorded saltie. In general, males over 5 m (17 feet) in length are extremely rare. Females are smaller, the normal maximum adult size being 2.5 m to 3 m (8 to 10 feet). Maximum weight varies, but large salties have been known to exceed 1,000 kg as 18 to 19 foot adults. 5 metre adults are closer to 400 to 500 kg."
Crocodilian Species - Australian Saltwater Crocodile (Crocodylus porosus)



ianinoz said:


> , keep in mind a salty wont just hunt in the water, but will also hunt on land and you can not outrun a salty who has decided you're going to be it's next meal and who is hot persuit.



No...you can easily outrun a large heavy crocodile on open land. Your danger zone for a large crocodile is shallow-deep water and if you are on the immediate waters edge...anywhere else you are fine. And if you are on the immediate waters edge and are attacked and the croc misses you should be able to easily get away and in 90 percent of instances the croc won't even try to go after you on land.

The biggest danger zone is being ambushed on the waters edge or shallow water.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> If the white man never invaded Australia, I'm sure all the people that live up there would be contending with crocs, probably in greater numbers than they do now, correct? So why bother kulling the crocodiles?
> 
> If these people that are getting taken are stupid enough to get taken, then so be it. They should learn to live with them.



I'll ask you the same question that i asked inspiration. 

What would you do if you found a tai in your house? Would you leave it there and learn to live with it or would you remove it?



mmafan555 said:


> Maybe I ( and others) would take you more seriously if you actullay had even the slightest clue what you are talking about. Their is no such thing as a 9-10m salty...Not now and not in the past.
> 
> From Aussie croc expert Adam Britton
> 
> ...



Maybe if you knew what you were talking about we would take you a bit more seriously. Crocs don't get to 10m but they do hunt on land, there have been Australian's taken a long way from the waters edge and i have found large crocodiles hundreds of meters from any water source. 

Over 5-10 meters maybe even 20 you could not outrun a large salty, not even Kathy Freeman could.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> Kawasaki
> A lot of the time it is not stupidity
> fair enough if a Tourist gets munched after swimming in a hole with warning signs
> But too many other incidents are happening and seem to be increasing
> ...


 

I guess I mean recklessness more so than stupidity. If I lived up there, I wouldn't be anywhere near the waters edge and if I was in a boat it would be a lot bigger than a 4 m tinny. 

You avoid being mare lunch by staying out of the water. I'd mug rather kiss a lure goodbye then dive in and get it. I'd also rather drag my fish up the beach as I was reeling it in then stand on the edge to retrieve it.

Just me.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I guess I mean recklessness more so than stupidity. If I lived up there, I wouldn't be anywhere near the waters edge and if I was in a boat it would be a lot bigger than a 4 m tinny.
> 
> You avoid being mare lunch by staying out of the water. I'd mug rather kiss a lure goodbye then dive in and get it. I'd also rather drag my fish up the beach as I was reeling it in then stand on the edge to retrieve it.
> 
> Just me.


 
What do you do when the water is lapping 10m from your backdoor and there is a 3.5m croc hanging around that has already eaten your dog?

Don't get me wrong, i stay out of the water or if i have to enter the water i take a gun. But the animals that are not showing fear of people and are posing a significant risk need to be removed.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I'll ask you the same question that i asked inspiration.
> 
> What would you do if you found a tai in your house? Would you leave it there and learn to live with it or would you


 
Because I had dogs I'd remove it. But it would be a removal, not a kill. Where I am now I don't have anyone to worry about except myself and my gf. I'd stress that caution is needed when going outside. I understand that if you remove it, they come back (Whig I found very interesting if it's over a large distance) but what I said was if we never invaded Australia, the locals wouldn't have the means to cull or remove the crocs and they'd have to find ways of being safer.

10 meters is 33ft... I highly doubt a croc would get that large. That's the distance that people started to learn back***** on full size moto's.........


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Because I had dogs I'd remove it. But it would be a removal, not a kill. Where I am now I don't have anyone to worry about except myself and my gf. I'd stress that caution is needed when going outside. I understand that if you remove it, they come back (Whig I found very interesting if it's over a large distance) but what I said was if we never invaded Australia, the locals wouldn't have the means to cull or remove the crocs and they'd have to find ways of being safer.
> 
> 10 meters is 33ft... I highly doubt a croc would get that large. That's the distance that people started to learn back***** on full size moto's.........



That is my exact point. You would have the animal removed, the snake is posing a risk to you, your pets and loved ones that is too great to ignore. A snake can be relocated, a large croc can't.

But we did 'invade' Australia and there are ways to control croc threats.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> What do you do when the water is lapping 10m from your backdoor and there is a 3.5m croc hanging around that has already eaten your dog?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, i stay out of the water or if i have to enter the water i take a gun. But the animals that are not showing fear of people and are posing a significant risk need to be removed.


 
Obviously you're in a flood prone area. I'd build a house high enough off the ground for a start. I'd also keep the pooch inside if it was flooding and the area immediately around the house fenced, so a croc wouldn't get in there unless it could float over. That way the pooch would be safe. I guess if the croc was bailing you up for days in your home you'd have to shoot it, but in normal circumstances I can't see a croc stalking the occupants of a house for days. I know it happens if their prey is in a tree.


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## mmafan555 (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I'll ask you the same question that i asked inspiration.
> 
> Maybe if you knew what you were talking about we would take you a bit more seriously. Crocs don't get to 10m but they do hunt on land, there have been Australian's taken a long way from the waters edge and i have found large crocodiles hundreds of meters from any water source.



But that is not what he said silly! He said you can not escape a croc on land that is attacking you. That is false. Crocs are slow and tire easily on land( big crocs that is) and can not chase down humans in some cartoonish way and kill them on open land.

Did I say that crocs don't hunt on land?? No I didn't... However I would think that it would be uncommon for them to do so as their bite and method of killing prey is dependent on the water. They bite hold and use their immense strength to drown their prey. Hunting on land would be pretty hard, through they can and do do it on occasion as do gators. Either way neither can chase a human down and catch a human on land.( for a big croc) A smaller croc can probably outrun a human for short distances but it would be tall small to kill a human.

Ambushing a person at the waters edge is a different story. I am not talking about a surprise attack.



waruikazi said:


> Over 5-10 meters maybe even 20 you could not outrun a large salty, not even Kathy Freeman could.



What about Floyd Mayweather.. Even a small croc would not catch him!


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Obviously you're in a flood prone area. I'd build a house high enough off the ground for a start. I'd also keep the pooch inside if it was flooding and the area immediately around the house fenced, so a croc wouldn't get in there unless it could float over. That way the pooch would be safe. I guess if the croc was bailing you up for days in your home you'd have to shoot it, but in normal circumstances I can't see a croc stalking the occupants of a house for days. I know it happens if their prey is in a tree.



If those things were an option that would great. 

You can pretty safely assume that a croc hanging around your house is 'bailing' you up.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> That is my exact point. You would have the animal removed, the snake is posing a risk to you, your pets and loved ones that is too great to ignore. A snake can be relocated, a large croc can't.
> 
> But we did 'invade' Australia and there are ways to control croc threats.



Ok I accept that, but I guarantee if someone from a remote area (who couldn't get a snake relocater) with a tai in their backyard that had killed their pet dog joined up here saying they killed it, there would be an uproar.


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> But that is not what he said silly! He said you can not escape a croc on land that is attacking you. That is false. Crocs are slow and tire easily on land( big crocs that is) and can not chase down humans in some cartoonish way and kill them on open land.
> 
> Did I say that crocs don't hunt on land?? No I didn't... However I would think that it would be uncommon for them to do so as their bite and method of killing prey is dependent on the water. They bite hold and use their immense strength to drown their prey. Hunting on land would be pretty hard, through they can and do do it on occasion as do gators. Either way neither can chase a human down and catch a human on land.( for a big croc) A smaller croc can probably outrun a human for short distances but it would be tall small to kill a human.
> 
> ...



No you said 'You can easily out run a crocodile on land.' You must never have seen a crocodile move on land. SteveNT has been flatten by a 4m job on land. He didn't out run it, he was just lucky the he scared it instead of making him hungry.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If those things were an option that would great.
> 
> You can pretty safely assume that a croc hanging around your house is 'bailing' you up.


 
Ok, but would a croc wait outside a house for days if it can't see the occupants? I know they'll hang around trees, it's a sure thing.


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## ianinoz (May 16, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> Maybe I ( and others) would take you more seriously if you actullay had even the slightest clue/knowledge on what you are talking about. Their is no such thing as a 9-10m salty...Not now and not in the past.
> 
> From Aussie croc expert Adam Britton
> 
> ...


 
And what about the big salty that was hunted down and killed near Normanton in Juky 1957 (8.7m long).


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Ok I accept that, but I guarantee if someone from a remote area (who couldn't get a snake relocater) with a tai in their backyard that had killed their pet dog joined up here saying they killed it, there would be an uproar.



I agree there would be. But i wouldn't judge that person for their actions if the snake was still posing an unacceptable risk to life and they had no other options.



kawasakirider said:


> Ok, but would a croc wait outside a house for days if it can't see the occupants? I know they'll hang around trees, it's a sure thing.



I don't know, i can't answer that question sorry.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

There are doubts about the actual size of the Normanton Croc
Even the woman who shot it was doubtful when she opened the exhibit near the Purple Pub
The measurements were and still are unconfirmed
All photos were lost in a flood in the 1970s
It is certain that it was a very very big animal
But nothing remains to prove it either way
Guiness took their records from newspaper reports

I would imagine a big croc would just wait if it had a scent of food
Remember all those documentaries about the Zambesi Crossing
If the river doesnt drop the crocs just stay there slowly starving until it does


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## mmafan555 (May 16, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> And what about the big salty that was hunted down and killed near Normanton in Juky 1957 (8.7m long).



I highly doubt it was that long... But first I must say I just re read my post and I sounded like a prick so I am sorry... It just annoys me when people use exaggerated and often completely wrong facts to kind of justify killing an animal.. You see it with Wolves in the US. You hear these absurd fear driven stories of "enormous Canadian Wolves"( Wolves from Canada were released into Yellowstone) that are huge and kill all the elk and cattle blah blah blah. When in reality studies have shown that the Wolves are very similar in size to the Wolves that originally lived in the area and that the effect on cattle and bovids is minimal. Of course the hunting lobby would want to push false exaggerated stories of Wolves to the public...because Wolves equal less Elk and Bovids for them to hunt. My point is if your going to make arguments for culling/removing etc just at least use accurate arguments. 

Niles can also get huge..in fact in some regions of Africa they probably are similar in size as Salties and just as dangerous.

The Adelaide River in NT seems to have huge crocodiles


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Yes the Adelaide Daly and East South and West Adelaide seem to have a few big ones

That is the core of the problem
Big crocs rule their part of the river
They chase off or kill any intruders if they can or else they lose and they leave
The problem lies in Where do they go?
They leave that part of the river and travel somewhere else
Now there are far too many crocs that have never been hunted
So they just wander into human country
Those numbers are increasing every year and have dramatically increased just in the last five years
So this problem is not one that is just going to go away

With a shark you can just use shark nets
With any snake a hook and a bag
With a croc you can do absolutely nothing except kill or remove it
They cannot easily co-exist with humans


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

That's it Longqi, something has got to give and you can bet your dollar that it wont be people.


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## mmafan555 (May 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> Yes the Adelaide Daly and East South and West Adelaide seem to have a few big ones



Obviously their is no way you could really accurate judge this...but which river/rivers in your opinion has the greatest amounts of big monster crocs? Could you do like a top 3 ranking based on what you have seen. Thanks

The extreme territorial nature of Salties does make the situation very difficult. So most of the "problem crocs" tend to be smaller less dominant animals that are pushed out of the main rivers/prime habitat by the bigger dominant ones?

Maybe I am just unfairly biased against hunting/hunters because I am influenced by the idiotic cowboy way Americans handle large animals. Where a wolf kills one sheep and then their is an out-roar and the ranchers/hunters machine gun the entire pack. And then you hear ridiculous stories( pushed through by the hunting and ranching lobby) about how "wolves are out of control" and are "twice the size they were 50 years ago" and are :quadrupling in population and killing all the elk and cattle" when in reality they are the same size they have always been and are actullay declining in population.


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## Cockney_Red (May 16, 2011)

You Northerners are a bunch of tarts, good job you dont live in parts of Africa, where the niles kill, a hell of a lot more people than here, but manage to cohabit with them, you'd be calling for Nuking, not culling....


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## waruikazi (May 16, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> You Northerners are a bunch of tarts, good job you dont live in parts of Africa, where the niles kill, a hell of a lot more people than here, but manage to cohabit with them, you'd be calling for Nuking, not culling....



Really, if you think about it, we're just lucky we don't have bees up here! :lol:


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## cement (May 16, 2011)

Gordo,

What interests me, is the thought of the TO's living with the crocodile up until white man invaded.
Surely there were more crocs of a larger average size then today. There would have been some sort of natural balance as well.

Also was Arnhem Land ever hunted? I thought Arnhem Land was off limits to all but the disrespectful white croc hunters, back in the hunting days. 

What has changed since the times before white man? Is it just general public perceptions, including those of the TO's of today? They have the means to remove them now, is that the difference between living with them "harmoniously" and not?


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## mmafan555 (May 17, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> You Northerners are a bunch of tarts, good job you dont live in parts of Africa, where the niles kill, a hell of a lot more people than here, but manage to cohabit with them, you'd be calling for Nuking, not culling....


 
Yeah and unlike in Australia...the people in Africa are forced to directly use the rivers/waterways and come in close contact with the crocs very often. Then throw in Hippos and on land Lions, Elephants, Cape Buffalo, Rhinos, Hyenas, Leopards, a variety of venomous snakes and I think you assesment of Waruikazi being a "tart" is spot on.

And Niles in certain areas can grow to huge sizes like Salties.


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## longqi (May 17, 2011)

Yes Niles are big
Yes the people live with the few that are left
Yes the Nile croc is still actively hunted for both skins and trophies and is very timid except at the crossings
Yes it is a silent secretive hunter exactly the same as ours were even five years ago
Yes there are few huge Niles in Game parks
Yes most African have never even seen those animals mentioned above apart from on David Attenborough or in Game Parks

I have been pretty lucky in the last 30 years to have fished most of the Cape Top End and Kimberly Coast
10 years ago you were pretty lucky if you spotted any croc outside of a very few favourite places and with a pretty good local guide
Now only a blind man couldnt find one, without a guide, and within a rapidly shortening distance from KFC and Mackas
For some reason the Kimberley hasnt had the huge increase in numbers the NT has
[it has increased in numbers but not to the same extent in my opinion]
The only river I personally fished last trip was this one below
The East Aligator is way way way overstocked with small and medium sized crocs and probably with too many big ones too
Every single fisherman will say exactly the same thing about the numbers and lack of fear in almost every river system in the top end
In 30 years fishing I have lost a few fish to crocs
But by few I mean few and it was usually totally unexpected and a reason to go OH WOW LOOK AT THAT
Last trip I lost five from different areas down the river
One sat directly behind the motor as if daring me to try again
That is NOT normal behaviour for crocs
Some pools had two or three crocs over 4metres in them
That is NOT normal behaviour
The mouth of the river on a run out tide was a bloody scary place to be
All sizes of crocs who didnt care less about an outboard motor

Instead of camping near the mouth as usual I went about 3ks West towards the South Aligator
In the morning track marks around the boat and about 4metres of croc sitting just off shore
That river is flat out scary in a small boat and I have fished the Zambesi the Limpopo and Lake Tanganyika without a qualm
[although big hippos can tend to be nappy changing time]
Hippos are the one animal tribal communities in Africa fear the most even though snakes kill more people each year

In my wildest dreams I would never have imagined that there would be that many crocs anywhere in Aus during my lifetime

For tourists like myself, who go there infrequently, they were a wonderful attraction
But for people who have to live with them and learn again the old ways they are an ever growing menace

Maybe 80 years ago the local people had different methods of dealing with crocs
But then hunting really took off and they were virtually exterminated from many river systems
So the old ways are long forgotten now in many cases
So we have two things happening at once
We have a huge increase in crocs and they have no fear of humans
We have people who have been raised without too much fear because crocs were shy and in limited numbers
When swimming holes that have been safe since before your grandfather was born are now potential death traps something has to give

With the large number of medium to big crocs steadily increasing they have no option but to move to other river systems
They usually head West
After the East South and West Adelaides next port of call is getting right into more densely populated areas
Then they reach Darwin Harbour and all the estuaries around there

There is a favourite swimming hole at a spring about 25 minutes from Darwin
Beautiful crystal clear water
They pulled a 4.7 metre from there three years ago when I was camped there
No-one had ever heard of anything like that in living memory
Not a usual habitat for a big croc
But something bigger had forced him to set up home there

So yes I personally believe that culling will be very necessary sooner rather than later
I also firmly believe that anyone who can manage to survive in outlying communities during the wet cannot possibly be any form of "tart"
Even in the cities it is called suicide season and not without cause
Ive had an interesting life but I wouldnt volunteer to live out there then


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

cement said:


> Gordo,
> 
> What interests me, is the thought of the TO's living with the crocodile up until white man invaded.
> Surely there were more crocs of a larger average size then today. There would have been some sort of natural balance as well.
> ...



I don't know that we can assume that there were more or larger animals before settlement. But everything has changed since settlement. The whole dynamics of the countrie's biodiversity have changed and i don't just mean in relation to numbers and sizes of crocs, hunting would have been different with the availability of animals that are all but gone from the landscape now, there would have been less need to go to the water. Fewer people in a given area would mean that less dangerous areas could be hunted because less food would be needed. etc etc.

Traditional law was also used to keep people safe. Alot of 'sacred' areas are given that status just to keep people out because the area was no longer safe. 

I would love to offer some more insight into traditional lifestyle previous to settlement compared to now but i can't because i don't know.

I don't know if Arnhem land was ever hunted but i would assume parts of it were especially here in Oenpelli because we are the first community in Arnhem only 20km over the East Alligator river. 

There is a skull, i think in the NT museum, that has a stone spear head lodged in it. It would have been much harder but killing crocs has always been part of traditional life out here. But either way, life has changed. 

I'm feeling that there are people involved in this conversation that think the killing out here is willy nilly, it's not. Only the problem large crocs are removed and when the bodies can be safely removed from the water they are eaten. 

mmafan

Get your sorry back end off your computer chair and go and get some life experience. Watching the discovery channel does not cut the mustard! Until you have some real experience with the things you like to think you know so much about your opinions count for nothing. You are more than welcome to hold those opinions but make sure you label them as you *inexperienced opinion *and stop spouting them like gospel.


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## ianinoz (May 17, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> I highly doubt it was that long... But first I must say I just re read my post and I sounded like a prick so I am sorry... It just annoys me when people use exaggerated and often completely wrong facts to kind of justify killing an animal.. You see it with Wolves in the US. You hear these absurd fear driven stories of "enormous Canadian Wolves"( Wolves from Canada were released into Yellowstone) that are huge and kill all the elk and cattle blah blah blah. When in reality studies have shown that the Wolves are very similar in size to the Wolves that originally lived in the area and that the effect on cattle and bovids is minimal. Of course the hunting lobby would want to push false exaggerated stories of Wolves to the public...because Wolves equal less Elk and Bovids for them to hunt. My point is if your going to make arguments for culling/removing etc just at least use accurate arguments.
> 
> Niles can also get huge..in fact in some regions of Africa they probably are similar in size as Salties and just as dangerous.
> 
> The Adelaide River in NT seems to have huge crocodiles


 
My father, saw that animal in the flesh, he went back to Normanton in the hope of shooting and killing it (something about a bounty being offered to kill it). 
He knew the area very well having been a prof croc hunter (amongst other things such as a stockman) in the 1930s before he volunteered to join the AIF at the outset of WWII.

He told me it caused quite a sensation owing to the enormous size of the beast. 

I'm sure there must still be photos of it about in the possession of locals (from Normanton at the time).

There's a replica (made from fibreglass) of another enormous croc that was killed in the Kimberleys (it's in a park in the Derby) , it inhabited the 5 Rivers area , that is reputed to be life sized and was about the same size as the Normanton monster croc too. If it's accurately scaled, I can relate to why the locals would have been so terrified it hanging about the local boat ramp, jetty and how menacing it's shear size would have been.

He also said that most people who shot crocs in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s were not shooting them for trophies or for the skins. They would put a bullet into the tail of crocs who were hanging around and so crocs learnt to fear people and would avoid people. This no longer happens because they are protected and the crocs no longer fear people, and so with their increasing numbers, a huge problem is developing.


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

I have seen a picture of the Normanton croc (i think) and the one critcism i have of it is that the animal is disgustingly bloated making an accurate guess on the size pretty difficult. There is no doubting that it was a very large croc. 

The largest croc i have seen was one scary monster and is rumoured to have taken a young boy back in the 80's when it was smaller. It was in a billabong that joined the East Alligator, i don't think it would have made 6m but it would have been 1.5m wide in the belly. But even if they only got to 3m they are still scary beasts!


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## kawasakirider (May 17, 2011)

How can someone definitively say that a certain croc was responsible for am attack in the 80's? 

Sounds like bs. Crocs take people, sure, but pinpointing the right one is a matter of luck.


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## mmafan555 (May 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> Yes Niles are big
> Yes the people live with the few that are left
> Yes the Nile croc is still actively hunted for both skins and trophies and is very timid except at the crossings
> Yes it is a silent secretive hunter exactly the same as ours were even five years ago
> ...


 

Wow I didn't know it was that much of a problem....Like I said I only have a qualm if people are using absurd fear driven and wrong stories to justify a cull...If what you are saying is true than a cull will probably have to happen sooner or later... Maybe instead of a cull they should give out sport hunting licenses to people for problem crocs and then the money can either go to the aboriginal community or maybe to other conservation programs...That seems much better than just going all "Sarah Palin" and machine gunning crocs from a helicopter which serves no good.

I think you are underrating the Nile Croc and the danger it poses immensely. They are not that rare at all..In fact their are 300,000-500,000 in the wild and while they are hunted outside of national parks...They are a menace to people who are forced to fish and use the rivers for their lively hoods. In Africa many of the settlements are situated directly on or right near the rivers and people are killed by crocs and hippos all the time. Nile Crocs in many regions are not shy and afraid of humans at all. They are every bit as dangerous as Salties and for some populations probably the same size

The Nile kills thousands of people each year in Africa
Crocodiles kill eight in Zimbabwe dam - Monsters and Critics
Crocodiles Kill 9 Children Near Angolan River - Africa - Around the globe - World - Dalje.com
http://allafrica.com/stories/200706010480.html
Uganda: rise in crocodile attacks on humans | Radio Netherlands Worldwide

And Lions are incredibly dangerous and often bold around humans aswell. They may be even more dangerous than Crocodiles. In some regions of Africa you even hear of prides going into villages and just attacking and killing numerous people.. And when a lion kills 1 person.... If it is not killed you can bet your life it will start attacking humans at every opportunity until it is killed.

Hippos kill many many people aswell and are extremely territorial against anything in the water. But I am not sure they kill more people than Crocodiles. Elephants and Buffalo also kill hundreds of people a year in Africa.

The danger of living in the NT with Salties is not even remotely comparable to living in Africa. Niles are just like Salties in aggression/lack of fear of people and then you have lions, elephants, hippos, buffalo which kill tons of people aswell in Africa


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

That's why i said *RUMOURED*! It is not definitive!

This particular croc used to live further down stream near another very large croc (Eric from ARP). Two boys went missing in the 80's after playing at Cahills crossing. Eric was captured and sent away, this other croc disappeared upstream and it is supposed to be the one i saw living in this billabong.


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## kawasakirider (May 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> That's why i said *RUMOURED*! It is not definitive!
> 
> This particular croc used to live further down stream near another very large croc (Eric from ARP). Two boys went missing in the 80's after playing at Cahills crossing. Eric was captured and sent away, this other croc disappeared upstream and it is supposed to be the one i saw living in this billabong.


 
I know you said rumored, I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular, I see how you got that idea though. But you just said "this particular croc lived further down stream" how can you be sure unless it was tagged?


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

Mr. broken record

I'll say this slowly with lots of white space around so hopefully you understand.



*It is not a competition!!!!*



Crocodiles are dangerous no matter where they are, along with a very large number of animals. How ever you like to understate the problem of crocodiles in the NT and other northern parts of Australia, it makes no difference to the real situation we have here on the ground. We know there are problem animals in other parts of the world, *but we don't live in other parts of the world! *We have a problem here that we are dealing with. 




mmafan555 said:


> Wow I didn't know it was that much of a problem....Like I said I only have a qualm if people are using absurd fear driven and wrong stories to justify a cull...If what you are saying is true than a cull will probably have to happen sooner or later... Maybe instead of a cull they should give out sport hunting licenses to people for problem crocs and then the money can either go to the aboriginal community or maybe to other conservation programs...That seems much better than just going all "Sarah Palin" and machine gunning crocs from a helicopter which serves no good.
> 
> I think you are underrating the Nile Croc and the danger it poses immensely. They are not that rare at all..In fact their are 300,000-500,000 in the wild and while they are hunted outside of national parks...They are a menace to people who are forced to fish and use the rivers for their lively hoods. In Africa many of the settlements are situated directly on or right near the rivers and people are killed by crocs and hippos all the time. Nile Crocs in many regions are not shy and afraid of humans at all. They are every bit as dangerous as Salties and for some populations probably the same size
> 
> ...


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## mmafan555 (May 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> mmafan
> 
> Get your sorry back end off your computer chair and go and get some life experience. Watching the discovery channel does not cut the mustard! Until you have some real experience with the things you like to think you know so much about your opinions count for nothing. You are more than welcome to hold those opinions but make sure you label them as you *inexperienced opinion *and stop spouting them like gospel.



I have plenty of experience dealing with very dangerous animals...I lived in Florida and Canada and have seen numerous dangerous animals in my lifetime.


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## Red-Ink (May 17, 2011)

mmafan555

You really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the dangers of Australian animals... You come on here and argue on several threads that they are not, sighting reasons that they dont kill that much people and that we use them to scare tourist. Mate that logic is severely flawed, for one why would we want to scare tourist? Counter productive dont you think towards the industry? Tell you what's more counter productive to our tourism industry.... a backpacker getting bitten by a venomous snake or spider or killed by a croc. That's why we warm them.

You say not many people here in Australia die from our animals.... there's a reason for that, we know they dangerous so we generally avoid them plus there's really not that many of us in ratio to the land mass to come in contact with them. We warn tourist that's why there's not many deaths, the ones that are unfortunate enough to be killed by them are the ones that did not listen or the ones that may share the same notion as you that we "talk them up".


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> I have plenty of experience dealing with very dangerous animals...I lived in Florida and Canada and have seen numerous dangerous animals in my lifetime.



You are a super star at editing your posts!

Do you have *ANY* experience with the Australian dangerous animals you spout so much of? Please detail it.


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## kawasakirider (May 17, 2011)

I'm not jumping on anyone's side... But an alligator from florida can't be compared to a croc.


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## mmafan555 (May 17, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> You are a super star at editing your posts!
> 
> Do you have *ANY* experience with the Australian dangerous animals you spout so much of? Please detail it.



First tell me which( in particular) "spouts" of mine do you disagree with. I only really remember making 3 claims about Australian animals and none of them were really anything major..Is saying that Africa and Asia have more overall dangerous animals than Australia really anything major?..I thought that would be very obvious.



kawasakirider said:


> I'm not jumping on anyone's side... But an alligator from florida can't be compared to a croc.



Yes that is 100 percent true. A salty or a nile is a whole different animal than a gator...But a gator is still a dangerous animal and I did deal with rattlesnakes, water moccasins, black bears etc. and in Canada I did see Grizzly Bears and Cougars on very rare occasions.


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I'm not jumping on anyone's side... But an alligator from florida can't be compared to a croc.



Don't fall into the same tricks as mmafan. If you don't have personal experince with them then you don't know and can't make that claim. Watching discovery channel and youtube doesn't cut it, in the water i doubt they would be very different at all.



mmafan555 said:


> First tell me which( in particular) "spouts" of mine do you disagree with. I only really remember making 3 claims about Australian animals and none of them were really anything major..Is saying that Africa and Asia have more overall dangerous animals than Australia really anything major?..I thought that would be very obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that is 100 percent true. A salty or a nile is a whole different animal than a gator...But a gator is still a dangerous animal and I did deal with rattlesnakes, water moccasins, black bears etc. and in Canada I did see Grizzly Bears and Cougars on very rare occasions.



*Do you have ANY experience with Australian dangerous animals? Jelly fish, crocodiles, and Aus elapids. What is your experience?*

What spouts? Go back and read your posts, those spouts.


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## SteveNT (May 17, 2011)

"The aboriginals who lived in northern Australia in areas occupied by saltys prior to colonisation had no choice about it. Their stone age weapons were no match for a big salty. "

Indigenous people have always hunted and eaten salties and freshies very successfully.

The first test case after they were protected was Parks trying to prosecute 5 old ladies who killed a good size salty while crabbing in the mangroves, and took it home for dinner. The judge threw the case out and said if a bunch of old ladies can overpower a croc good on them and stop wasting my time!


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## longqi (May 17, 2011)

SteveT
Quote
The first test case after they were protected was Parks trying to prosecute 5 old ladies who killed a good size salty while crabbing in the mangroves, and took it home for dinner. The judge threw the case out and said if a bunch of old ladies can overpower a croc good on them and stop wasting my time! Unquote

Only in the Top End do you find judges with a bit of common sense
Way to go

Mmafan
Dont you understand the major thing you leave out of all your calculations
Population
The huge population increases in both Africa and Asia are what is forcing more contact between their animals and them
If Australia was exploding with people the way most of those countries are the results would be much more similar
But population wise Australia is both factually and figuratively speaking a desert
No-one on here will argue that both Asia and Africa have some of the most dangerous creatures on Earth but in every single case the numbers of those creatures is dropping quickly
The number and size of Salties is increasing at a very fast rate

I think they would be the worlds only major predator that this is true about
Apart from within National Parks or Game Reserves can you think of any others??
Possibly polar bears and doubtfully grizzly bears???
Neither of which would be called Asian or African??

While in some ways I can agree with encouraging trophy shooting use local guides so long as the money stayed local there are two things wrong with that
The """hunters"" would only want to kill trophy animals 
"Hunting a sleeping croc" is hardly hunting in any way shape manner or form
unless of course you just drop a bleeding hunter into a pool with a rubber powered speargun and a face mask
I suppose we could also give them a knife if they wanted one
Might make it a bit fairer


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## mmafan555 (May 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> Mmafan
> Dont you understand the major thing you leave out of all your calculations
> Population
> The huge population increases in both Africa and Asia are what is forcing more contact between their animals and them
> ...



Yes that is completely true population or you chance of encountering a dangerous animal obviously has a huge effect on how many people will be killed by that particular animal. Their are also differences between poor 3rd world nations and a 1st world nation in Australia that would prevent many deaths from animal attack. But still the fact remains even if Australia was a poor 3rd world nation and had similar population densities as Africa and Asia...they still only really have 1 dangerous large endemic animal that can go onto land.( crocodile) as oppossed to numerous for both Africa and Asia



longqi said:


> No-one on here will argue that both Asia and Africa have some of the most dangerous creatures on Earth but in every single case the numbers of those creatures is dropping quickly



I would not agree with that. Elephants populations are growing tremendously in fact they probably will have to cull Elephants sooner or later as well as their are just to many of then. Elephants population in Africa( In Asia this isn't true) are growing much like Salties in Australia. As for Nile Crocs...I wouldn't say they are decreasing either..In certain regions sure, but in others they are doing okay and in the national parks they are doing fine. They are listed as "least concern" and in some regions are very big and aggressive animals..with very little fear of humans. Hippos are slightly declining but their are 120-150 thousand left and in the parks they are fine. Both Hippos and Nile Crocs cause significant danger to the people who coexist with them

And that was my point..If people in Africa/Asia can coexist with a whole host of different large dangerous animals surely people in the NT can find a way to coexist with Salties

Lions are on the decline in numbers..but still they are easily spotted and have very healthy populations in many national parks and they kill many people each year and will be fine. Of course tigers are in dire trouble and may become extinct in the wild soon if drastic action is not taken.

For Bears I don't know about their overall population. I would assume they are doing alright. Bears are not dangerous to people like Big Cats are through. Surprise encounters with Mothers and Cubs constitute most attacks and bears can coexist with humans alot better than crocs and lions can. Their was a nut case who used to camp( by himself) in Katmai National Park with hundreds of bears each year...including being feet away from fights/mothers with cubs, bears fishing etc...and their was no real incident. After 13 years of doing this...him and his girlfriend were eventually killed and eaten by an old/weak male bear that was struggling to survive and it was a bear that they had never seen before and didn't know....

here is info on the guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell


Now picture what would happen if someone camped out with a pride of lions or right by a crocodile infested river...They wouldn't survive 2 weeks let alone 13 years( he would go from April to september/october for 13 years)





longqi said:


> The number and size of Salties is increasing at a very fast rate



The fact that they are increasing in size...indicates to me that they are finally recovering from the over hunting that took place until the 70s. If an animal is increasing in size...that means it is recovering from hunting or a significant increase of food in the area. For me that is a good thing. Dwarfism is a huge problem for many animals and I am glad that more large crocs are being found like in the past. The number increase is a problem, but why would you want smaller crocs? 





longqi said:


> The """hunters"" would only want to kill trophy animals
> "Hunting a sleeping croc" is hardly hunting in any way shape manner or form
> unless of course you just drop a bleeding hunter into a pool with a rubber powered speargun and a face mask
> I suppose we could also give them a knife if they wanted one
> Might make it a bit fairer



Well I mean they could hunt problem animals...animals that turn up in unsuspecting and unwanted areas where they threaten people. This would ensure that the most dominant animals( which from what you guys have said) live in the major river systems far away from people are left alone and not hunted and the ones that move off into areas near people can be hunted. I mean it would not be the ideal thing to do but if their population is really that absurdly high I would prefer that over culling.

I mean the alligator rivers are in Kakadu right? Thats a national park...so as far as I am concerned you are in the crocodiles domain there. If you are fishing and are killed...tough luck its a national park.


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

Mmafan we (I) are still waiting for you to tell us your experience with Australian fauna.


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## zack13 (May 17, 2011)

I'm wondering why MMAFAN hates people beating up the truth but has no qualms doing it himself. Yes one sheep is taken and a whole wolf pack is taken out get real. Also once one lion attacks a human it will forever, have any proof to back that ridiculous assertion up? Or that whole prides go into villages and kill them. I have not heard of any of this so if you could point me in the right direction I would be very happy. 
By the way I'm from the US and have lived in South Africa for a little.


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## waruikazi (May 17, 2011)

zack13 said:


> I'm wondering why MMAFAN hates people beating up the truth but has no qualms doing it himself. Yes one sheep is taken and a whole wolf pack is taken out get real. Also once one lion attacks a human it will forever, have any proof to back that ridiculous assertion up? Or that whole prides go into villages and kill them. I have not heard of any of this so if you could point me in the right direction I would be very happy.
> By the way I'm from the US and have lived in South Africa for a little.



Whooah whooah there Zack! Mmafan has used google, seen a bear and a water moccassin before! I'd be inclined to take his word for it!


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## longqi (May 17, 2011)

Unlike USA local people actually live in National Parks here

Unless its a bull in musti or mother with calf elephants are hardly a threat to anything except maize crops etc
Yes there are fatalities
Yes these fatalities will increase as people push the remaining herds into less hospitable areas
Yes their numbers are rapidly increasing inside National Parks 
Yes they are already culling herds within those parks
[strange that you appear to accept culling of elephants within national parks but scream about culling an apex predator living close to people??]
Every other animal you listed as increasing in number, you added the proviso in national parks
Outside National Parks in Africa or Asia people dont co-exist with apex predators
They kill them
Simple as that
Bang Bang you cannot threaten my family any more and your meat was delicious
Apex predators outside National Parks grow less every day
You have quite obviously never been to either Asia or Africa

Some of the rivers are in Kakadu
Some are on the other side of Darwin
Some are in Darwin
In all areas of the Top End exactly the same thing is happening
Its getting a bit like Florida with one huge difference
Virtually any decent bit of water in Florida has a few gators
Kids swim with them You squeak like a baby gator and others will answer your call and come in to the shore
In mating season you call the big males just to watch them shiver their backs for a bit of fun
They are a pretty cool big lizard
Yes there are occasional fatalities but with a large population of humans and less natural tucker for them that is to be expected

Crocs are nothing like gators
There is simply no comparison except for general shape
Only an idiot would attempt to play with them

Of course they are recovering from hunting
Hunting stopped in the 1970s
So every croc born since then is a protected animal and has zero fear of humans
Add in the ones that were left over from before and you have 40+year old crocs with no fear
A 40year old croc will kill you without hesitation if it is hungry and there is nothing you can do to stop it
Culling by using professionals to remove selected numbers of mixed sized crocs will become necessary
Culling by this method is by far the most humane and successful way
No-one has ever suggested killing all the big crocs
They are a great tourist attraction and regardless of how I might sound I and every single person I know would totally oppose that

Your way with using 'hunters' to shoot crocs would never work
Some rich idiot with an overpowered rifle wandering around a back yard would be last thing anyone would want
Its a professional job just like any other and would need professionals to execute them cleanly and humanely


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## cement (May 17, 2011)

"For Bears I don't know about their overall population. I would assume they are doing alright. Bears are not dangerous to people like Big Cats are through. Surprise encounters with Mothers and Cubs constitute most attacks and bears can coexist with humans alot better than crocs and lions can. Their was a nut case who used to camp( by himself) in Katmai National Park with hundreds of bears each year...including being feet away from fights/mothers with cubs, bears fishing etc...and their was no real incident. After 13 years of doing this...him and his girlfriend were eventually killed and eaten by an old/weak male bear that was struggling to survive and it was a bear that they had never seen before and didn't know...."

I have seen the video footage shot by this Timothy character, and what you say is here is largely inflated and exaggerated. But you are a seppo...


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## SteveNT (May 17, 2011)

I've put on my asbestos suit ("susbestos" as one of my Indigenous students called it haha)

I support controlled commercial hunting as a culling mechanism.

1) The culling goes on anyway, discretely or not. 

2) A trained marksman fires simultaneously in most pro hunting scenarios to ensure a kill (always accredited to the ******** paying hunter) The dollars paid are considerable. 

3) It can be a big revenue earner for people living in remoteCommunities with 0 economic activity.

4) when a Community gains an economic benefit from local wildlife they protect that wildlife with greater enthusiasm.

There is commercial hunting of Banteng cattle (last wild herd in the world apparently) on Cobourg Peninsular and it provides the traditional owners with a good source of income and the research has shown the culling of the biggest bulls gives the young blokes a chance and the population has increased.

I have no problem with the SUSTAINABLE utilisation of wildlife. Djelk Rangers in Maningrida sustainably harvest croc and long necked turtle eggs for hatching and sale. Goyder River Rainbow Fish (easily the most majestic of their kind) are collected in Ramingining for sale in the mexican states. The take rate is tiny in terms of the population. 

Surely it is better to have an ecosystem intact and the local population protecting it. Back to the start.


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## longqi (May 17, 2011)

Steve
Is suspestos another James Hardie product??
Mightnt have to cull a few
Just hit sir James up for bit of cash and blame it on the susbestos??


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## mmafan555 (May 18, 2011)

zack13 said:


> I'm wondering why MMAFAN hates people beating up the truth but has no qualms doing it himself. Yes one sheep is taken and a whole wolf pack is taken out get real. Also once one lion attacks a human it will forever, have any proof to back that ridiculous assertion up? Or that whole prides go into villages and kill them. I have not heard of any of this so if you could point me in the right direction I would be very happy.
> By the way I'm from the US and have lived in South Africa for a little.



Just had a whole post done and then reply and it said "token has expired" took awhile to write the post and I don't feel like writing it up again.. I will try to respond to your post later tonight or tomorrow.

Sorry about the wait...I will try to reply to you later tonight.


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## kawasakirider (May 18, 2011)

If I have a big reply goin' on, I usually copy it before I hit the reply button, just in case (if I can remember).


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## snakeluvver (May 18, 2011)

mmafan, why are all your posts trying to disprove that Australian animals are super dangerous or whatever. Its always you bringing it up, why cant you just ignore it and spare the thread?

I've asked before and I will ask again, do you even keep reptiles? Or did you just join this site to moan about how Aussie animals arent as bad as everyone says?


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## thoma1234 (May 21, 2011)

To Waruikazi 

First off Id like to say that even though your free to your own opinion saying that a crocodile or any living creature should rather be killed than rellocated is just ridiculous crocodiles hunt for food they dont just come into your house with a handgun or knife with the intent of killing your family your thought process must be very delapidated to think this way but then I cant help but think you just say these sort of these sort of things just for the sake of causing an argument to make your life a little less mundane? i hope this is the reason because if that really is the mindset that you have aqquired from your life I feel sympathetic towards you and what you must have been through to become such a warped minded individual everything has the right to live and if there is a situation where instead of using a barbaric measure wich you imply and having a second chance well in my opinion the secoind chance is the best way maybe you should try to get some help before your mental status declines and you may end up needing the same treatment you suggest to an animal that is only doing what comes natural to it.

Thankyou


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## Cockney_Red (May 21, 2011)

Thoma, In the perfect world, what you're saying Is correct!, but what people are saying on this thread, Is that, to sustain Croc populations In the top end, at equable numbers, compromises have to be met, and as much as I hate the death of any animal, it is a global problem affecting countless numbers of large wildlife....our feet have been far too big, for far too long


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## Darlyn (May 21, 2011)

thoma1234 said:


> To Waruikazi
> 
> First off Id like to say that even though your free to your own opinion saying that a crocodile or any living creature should rather be killed than rellocated is just ridiculous crocodiles hunt for food they dont just come into your house with a handgun or knife with the intent of killing your family your thought process must be very delapidated to think this way but then I cant help but think you just say these sort of these sort of things just for the sake of causing an argument to make your life a little less mundane? i hope this is the reason because if that really is the mindset that you have aqquired from your life I feel sympathetic towards you and what you must have been through to become such a warped minded individual everything has the right to live and if there is a situation where instead of using a barbaric measure wich you imply and having a second chance well in my opinion the secoind chance is the best way maybe you should try to get some help before your mental status declines and you may end up needing the same treatment you suggest to an animal that is only doing what comes natural to it.
> 
> Thankyou



I'm pretty sure Waruikazi gave reasons why relocation was not a good option. I don't see your solutions to solve the problem of the crocodiles returning?


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## thoma1234 (May 21, 2011)

surely we can find a better option rather than putting a bullet through their head, what happened before when crocodiles werent protected we nearly lost them, theres always options, but then everyones entitled to their own opinions and this is mine.


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## zack13 (May 21, 2011)

thoma1234 said:


> surely we can find a better option rather than putting a bullet through their head, what happened before when crocodiles werent protected we nearly lost them, theres always options, but then everyones entitled to their own opinions and this is mine.


 
That is the problem though there isn't really any other option. There are too many nuisance crocs to relocate them all (not that relocation does much good), there are too many to send them all to zoos, farms etc. No one is saying we should make them a non protected species again just that there should be a sustained cull. I hate the fact that innocent animals have to die but in this case it just isn't possible to do anything else.


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## SteveNT (May 21, 2011)

thoma1234 said:


> surely we can find a better option rather than putting a bullet through their head, what happened before when crocodiles werent protected we nearly lost them, theres always options, but then everyones entitled to their own opinions and this is mine.



Graham Webb, world's foremost authority on salties said "give me the navy, the army and the airforce and I still couldn't make them extinct. They were around before the dinosaurs, ate dinosaurs and will probably outlast us"

You need to understand how dangerous these guys are. They are superb ambush predators that plan their attacks and I have watched them pulling in full grown cattle on Coroboree Billabong. Relocation doesn't work they just come back. So what are the "better options" you mention.


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## waruikazi (May 22, 2011)

To Thoma1234

My life is far from mundane, i went for a drive to our local pub for dinner on Friday night. On the way back my girlfriend and i spotted 9 crocs on the road side, that is a far from mundane life! Not to mention all the snakes and pigs we found!

I'm tough enough to not get upset at your ad hominem attack on me. I will also make it clear that my comments are not just my opinions. There is alot of research that will back up what i say and living and interacting with these creatures, i think makes what i say more than just opinion. What is your experience/expertise/research that discredits the statements that other members and i are making?

Just while we are on the topic of the animal doing what is natural to it. Is it not natural for us to want to look after and protect the people in our community? 

Just to make it very clear, i am not advocating wide spread culling of crocodiles. I am advocating the removal of crocodiles that are posing an unacceptable risk to our safety in ways that are humane and economically acceptable. 

You're welcome.

And just a question for everyone that wants the problem crocs to go to croc farms. Do any of you actually know what goes on in croc farms? And how they get a lot of their crocodiles?



thoma1234 said:


> To Waruikazi
> 
> First off Id like to say that even though your free to your own opinion saying that a crocodile or any living creature should rather be killed than rellocated is just ridiculous crocodiles hunt for food they dont just come into your house with a handgun or knife with the intent of killing your family your thought process must be very delapidated to think this way but then I cant help but think you just say these sort of these sort of things just for the sake of causing an argument to make your life a little less mundane? i hope this is the reason because if that really is the mindset that you have aqquired from your life I feel sympathetic towards you and what you must have been through to become such a warped minded individual everything has the right to live and if there is a situation where instead of using a barbaric measure wich you imply and having a second chance well in my opinion the secoind chance is the best way maybe you should try to get some help before your mental status declines and you may end up needing the same treatment you suggest to an animal that is only doing what comes natural to it.
> 
> Thankyou


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## GeckPhotographer (May 22, 2011)

> My life is far from mundane, i went for a drive to our local pub for dinner on Friday night. On the way back my girlfriend and i spotted 9 crocs on the road side, that is a far from mundane life! Not to mention all the snakes and pigs we found!


When I was in NT I was a hell a lot more scared of pigs than crocs, practically jumped a meter every time I thought I heard pigish sounds. 


I agree a sustained cull of crocs is most likely the best option. I mean kangaroos are culled sustainably and they are not even an apex predator that are making it dangerous for people to live. Besides the crocs killed can be eaten which makes this pretty much ecologically sustainable harvesting if done right.


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## waruikazi (May 22, 2011)

I don't want to see them culled nesecarily. I'm not apposed to the idea of trophy hunting either. 

But i do want to see the problem animals removed.


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## Cockney_Red (May 22, 2011)

Gordo, the only thing I have reservations with, Is who decides which are the problem animals, and as far as trophy hunting goes, It wont be long before the big fellas are all shot out, and lets face it, we all want to see the big fellas...


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## thoma1234 (May 22, 2011)

i agree with cockney


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## SteveNT (May 22, 2011)

Unbeknownst to many there has always been active culling of big "problem" (i.e cattle eating) crocs on pastoral leases. The really big guys along the Mary River and Hardie's Creek all quietly disappeared in the 90's sanctioned by the then CLP government. Parks never said boo. 
My understanding is that this still happens all very quietly when those who should be looking are having a day off.

You only see the really big guys now on the South and East Alligator, Finnis, Flora and Daly Rivers. When I got here in 75 there were monsters everywhere but you couldn't get near them (gun shy).

With trophy hunting the guide (in the proposed case up here- a traditional owner) choses the target not the hunter.


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## mmafan555 (May 23, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> You only see the really big guys now on the South and East Alligator, Finnis, Flora and Daly Rivers.



What about the Adelaide River?

What about for Queensland? Is their a particular river or rivers in Queensland that you know of that have big crocodiles


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## longqi (May 23, 2011)

Probably too many crocs in the Adelaide for the really big ones to show up regularly in the popular areas
But plenty around the 4 to 4,5metre range
More heavily fished than Kakadu so bigger ones are quieter

Qld has quite a few big ones in the Eastern Gulf rivers and from there right round Cape York to South of Cairns
They took a 4.5metre from Townsville Beach recently and a 4metre from Aerlie Beach in the Whitsundays
Dont know too much about Southern Gulf rivers as I seldom fished them


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## SteveNT (May 24, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> What about the Adelaide River?
> 
> What about for Queensland? Is their a particular river or rivers in Queensland that you know of that have big crocodiles



The biggest I've ever seen are in a billabong on Ringwood Station on the Adelaide River floodplain. There was an abatoir there that operated for 50 years until it closed in the 80's. All the leftovers were shovelled down a chute to the crocs waiting below. These guys are 6 meters but FAT. Once they reach that 5 1/2 meters they expand sideways. 

On the Adelaide itself I havent seen any really big ones for a couple of decades, again victims to discreet culling. 

The little known and mostly inaccessable Flora River still holds huge buggers that are shocking to see on the banks on cool dry season mornings. The primal response kicks in just seeing them, even from a distance.


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## mmafan555 (May 24, 2011)

longqi said:


> Probably too many crocs in the Adelaide for the really big ones to show up regularly in the popular areas
> But plenty around the 4 to 4,5metre range
> More heavily fished than Kakadu so bigger ones are quieter
> 
> ...


 

Thanks for the info...


I was never under the impression that Kakadu had particularly big crocs... I always thought that the Daly, Mary, Adelaide etc had bigger crocs than Kakadu...Thanks for the information...I would love to go out to Darwin and Kakadu and see some big crocs...The Alligator rivers are the best place in Kakadu to see big crocs?

Aren't the alligator rivers in a protected national park(Kakadu)? If thats the case...culling should not even be up for debate...A national park is the crocs turf


I had heard that Queensland had some big ones in the wenlock river area on cape york...Do you have any experience with that area?



SteveNT said:


> The biggest I've ever seen are in a billabong on Ringwood Station on the Adelaide River floodplain. There was an abatoir there that operated for 50 years until it closed in the 80's. All the leftovers were shovelled down a chute to the crocs waiting below. These guys are 6 meters but FAT. Once they reach that 5 1/2 meters they expand sideways.
> 
> On the Adelaide itself I havent seen any really big ones for a couple of decades, again victims to discreet culling.
> 
> The little known and mostly inaccessable Flora River still holds huge buggers that are shocking to see on the banks on cool dry season mornings. The primal response kicks in just seeing them, even from a distance.


 

Thanks for the info


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## kawasakirider (May 24, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> The biggest I've ever seen are in a billabong on Ringwood Station on the Adelaide River floodplain. There was an abatoir there that operated for 50 years until it closed in the 80's. All the leftovers were shovelled down a chute to the crocs waiting below. These guys are 6 meters but FAT. Once they reach that 5 1/2 meters they expand sideways.
> 
> On the Adelaide itself I havent seen any really big ones for a couple of decades, again victims to discreet culling.
> 
> The little known and mostly inaccessable Flora River still holds huge buggers that are shocking to see on the banks on cool dry season mornings. The primal response kicks in just seeing them, even from a distance.


 
Too bad you didn't get photo's, I'd love to see a 6m croc!!!


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## chilli-mudcrab (May 24, 2011)

my favourite fishing spot, Dalywoi bay has a resident big boy not huge by N.T standards maybe 4.5 or 5 but for what ever reason, tanin water or algae it is almost pitch black, very freakn scary. at night when we pull the boat out we have two people on torch duty just scanning the water ,as it is clear,quickest boat recovery ever! last year took the missus and kids there and was too rough to reef fish so hung out in the bay, we had 5 small crocs eating every bait and the big boy watching from the bank.
Awesome to feel part of the food chain


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## mmafan555 (May 25, 2011)

chilli-mudcrab said:


> my favourite fishing spot, Dalywoi bay has a resident big boy not huge by N.T standards maybe 4.5 or 5 but for what ever reason, tanin water or algae it is almost pitch black, very freakn scary. at night when we pull the boat out we have two people on torch duty just scanning the water ,as it is clear,quickest boat recovery ever! last year took the missus and kids there and was too rough to reef fish so hung out in the bay, we had 5 small crocs eating every bait and the big boy watching from the bank.
> Awesome to feel part of the food chain


 
A 5m croc is quite a big wild croc by( likely) any standards..Most are not anywhere near that size.



kawasakirider said:


> Too bad you didn't get photo's, I'd love to see a 6m croc!!!



A 6m croc in the wild would be absolutely huge.....I would love to see such a huge animal but it is probably exceptionally hard to see one that size anywhere( Australia/Africa/Pacific etc) nowadays.

I am not completely sure I believe a 7m+ croc exists nowadays at all in the wild anywhere on the globe...Certainly not 9 or 10m...and 7-8m seems extremely unlikely


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## Cockney_Red (May 25, 2011)

Reckon the only places where crocs, hit 6m in this day and age, is Niles, in the Grometi, Mara, and a couple of other rivers in Africa, and in Madagascar...if even there!


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## SteveNT (May 25, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Reckon the only places where crocs, hit 6m in this day and age, is Niles, in the Grometi, Mara, and a couple of other rivers in Africa, and in Madagascar...if even there!



Do ya homework cobber, C. Porosus is bigger than all the rest, Niles included and by a fair whack too. And the 6 meter boys are still around but very cagey, they remember being shot at. Try floating down the Flora River in an inner tube, you'll find one!


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## longqi (May 25, 2011)

Mmafan
A 5metre croc is a bloody big animal by any standards
Not just as wild one
Most are definitely not that size
YET
Australia is the only country the protects crocs
The number of 4/5 metre crocs is scary
So in about 15 years you will be able to find a few too many around the 6/7 metre range
Most seem to stop at about 5metres and just grow wider
But just like snakes and people there are always a few that will keep on growing

Cockney you might be correct about the Mara one day, because Kenya has made a very well run wildlife reservation/park there, but not so sure about the Grometi as the Serengeti is getting emptier every year
Madagascars wildlife is in a mess and getting messier from recent reports


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## zack13 (May 26, 2011)

An awesome read if anyone is interested.
World’s Biggest Crocodile – report by Rom & Nik Whitaker ? Conservation Footprints


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## mmafan555 (May 26, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Reckon the only places where crocs, hit 6m in this day and age, is Niles, in the Grometi, Mara, and a couple of other rivers in Africa, and in Madagascar...if even there!


 

Yeah East Africa looks to have big *** crocs...The Mara and the Grumeti definitely..mostly Ethopia, Uganda, Tanzania and Kenya etc.

The Tarcoles River in Costa Rica also has some big boys.



longqi said:


> Mmafan
> 
> Cockney you might be correct about the Mara one day, because Kenya has made a very well run wildlife reservation/park there, but not so sure about the Grometi as the Serengeti is getting emptier every year
> Madagascars wildlife is in a mess and getting messier from recent reports



The Mara River is the sight of the famed Wildbeast and Zebra migration.... The crocs in that area are huge and well fed/protected.

Crocs from Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Ethopia seem to be the biggest in Africa.

You are wrong about the Grumeti...I have been their and the crocs are huge and well fed and for the most part protected very well... The great migration passes through the Grumeti and the Mara and thus both rivers have huge crocs.



SteveNT said:


> Do ya homework cobber, C. Porosus is bigger than all the rest, Niles included and by a fair whack too. And the 6 meter boys are still around but very cagey, they remember being shot at. Try floating down the Flora River in an inner tube, you'll find one!



Yes this is definitely true for the most part....I do personally believe that in some areas of Africa( particularly in east Africa and near the equator) that the Niles are about the same size as Salties....but thats just a hunch and elsewhere in Africa they are smaller.



SteveNT said:


> Try floating down the Flora River in an inner tube, you'll find one!



How exactly would you get to the Flora River? Also is it far enough away from people so that not many crocs have to be relocated?


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## SteveNT (May 26, 2011)

"How exactly would you get to the Flora River? Also is it far enough away from people so that not many crocs have to be relocated?"

The Flora is accessed from the Victoria Hwy, 100km west of Katherine, then 50km dirt track. It is spring fed, 3-400 meters wide, 20 m deep and crystal clear. It runs through limestone country and has many waterfalls and tufa dams, which combined with extremely high cliffs make it very hard to access by boat. 15 hp is the largest allowed and your tinny has to be winched 40 meters down to the water and up again. 

There is one small Indigenous Community nearby but not on the River. There is no relocation here, it's just too hard to access. The Park is not well signposted and not marketed to tourists, thus scarcely visited. Most people can only access 3 km of the river. I have done mineral exploration along the full length (happily nothing there!) which is how I know it is one of the last bastions of the big fellas. And it is also fish soup, a super healthy river system. If you get a chance check it out, it is one the Top End's many gems that few even hear about. 

(dont forget you're inner tube!)


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## Cockney_Red (May 26, 2011)

SteveNT said:


> Do ya homework cobber, C. Porosus is bigger than all the rest, Niles included and by a fair whack too. And the 6 meter boys are still around but very cagey, they remember being shot at. Try floating down the Flora River in an inner tube, you'll find one!


 On paper, they are bigger, cobber, but certainly not by a fair Whack, unless you have some proof, I'll stick by my opinion that there is not a 6m croc in Oz...

Longqi, their is a BBC doco called "Here be Dragons" If you can find it, you will see the biggest crocs on the planet, and that is the Grometi . Madagascar has plenty of crocs, and reputedly the largest Niles.



zack13 said:


> An awesome read if anyone is interested.
> World’s Biggest Crocodile – report by Rom & Nik Whitaker � Conservation Footprints


 
Top read Zack, I saw the Doco of this, I'm a big fan of Rom Whitaker, a reptilian realist...


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## SteveNT (May 26, 2011)

"Here be dragons" is a great doco but they're still not as big as our big boys. Check any saurian reference material you like. Same answer.


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## Cockney_Red (May 26, 2011)

Got most of the references, been and seen crocs up top, but nobody can prove to me the existence of a 6m croc in Oz, or anywhere else for that matter...tape and scales...


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## SteveNT (May 26, 2011)

anyway, went (bank) fishing on the Wilton River last night. 1 x 75cm + 2 x 65cm barra. 1 x 4m croc fat as a station wagon. 

And this morning starting the 800km drive to Darwin (home) I met this bhp. Very handsome and always sparks the day.


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## waruikazi (May 27, 2011)

Do you get any clean fish out of the Wilton? Or are they all swamp dogs? 

Some of our year 3 and 4 students went fishing yesterday afternoon and managed to catch a 6.5 footer. They managed to tie it up and bring it home before one of their uncles shot it. By the smells of them this morning they had croc stew for dinner last night lol.


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## SteveNT (May 27, 2011)

Yea they were all silver fish, no mud barra (I like the way fishing guides call them "golden barra" haha), it's a fast flowing clear sandy river but it's a bugger to cross. I got sideways crossing it when the gauge on the west bank said .8 meter. Had water halfway up the windscreen and the gauge on the east bank said 1.2 meter! It's considered impassable at 1 meter because of the strong flow. I got a few raised eyebrows when I drove into Ngukurr. No-one had crossed for two days.

Good on the young fellas, dont mind a bit of croc stew myself. I'm about to head out to Cape Fright chasing muddies, barra and threadfin for the weekend before one of my rare weeks in the office doing beloved paperwork!


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## longqi (May 27, 2011)

Gotta love threadfin
Fight like a mongrel dog

Its actually quite interesting about barra
If you have fresh water in a tank with barra in it they go silver once they reach about 1kg
If you add 10% salt when they reach over 5kgs; they turn golden after a few days and turn female more quickly
But in the wild its the opposite


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## lazylizzy (May 27, 2011)

everythings life is equal.. i hate people that step on spiders.. why is there life any less important than ours. ur oppinion sickens me


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## longqi (May 27, 2011)

Its quite obvious your kids dont have to walk to school in croc infested areas Lizzie

Nobody has suggested killing all the crocs
But when they increase in numbers as rapidly as they have
and when there are more fatalities and disappearances every year
Then culling is required
Even the best environmentalists on the planet agree that professional culling is by far the best way of maintaining and increasing growth in any animal species that has too many numbers in any given area


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## zack13 (May 28, 2011)

lazylizzy said:


> everythings life is equal.. i hate people that step on spiders.. why is there life any less important than ours. ur oppinion sickens me


 
So I take it you don't live in a house, drive cars, go to malls etc where animals were kicked out to build these things. Don't be a hypocrite.


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## waruikazi (May 28, 2011)

lazylizzy said:


> everythings life is equal.. i hate people that step on spiders.. why is there life any less important than ours. ur oppinion sickens me


 
I hate offending people but if that is your outlook on the world and life then you are 100% delusional.

My life, the people i care about and even strangers lives' are far more important than any single animal on this planet. 

That feeling is not unique to humans either. All animals will defend themselves, all mammals, birds and some reptiles will protect their young from a predator and I have personally seen buffalo, pigs and dogs come back for a member of their mob that was being killed by and attack the predator (me).


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## ianinoz (May 28, 2011)

longqi said:


> Gotta love threadfin
> Fight like a mongrel dog
> 
> Its actually quite interesting about barra
> ...


 
Threadfin are good eating too.


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## SteveNT (May 29, 2011)

Just hauled a sackful of fat muddies up the stairs. 3 days of catching and eating, catching and eating all washed down with chilled beer. Checking out rare birds in the deep mangroves (red headed honeyeaters and rose crowned fruit doves, etc)and ducking the crocs flying out of them at low tide. No mozzies, no sandflies, sea breeze all day. Not another soul in sight the whole weekend. Bloody paradise!

Ah well. Back to work.


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## Darlyn (May 29, 2011)

Interesting documentary on crocodiles in the Top End on the ABC today. Researchers using satellite transmitters to monitor their movements. They found that crocodiles are making a dramatic comeback, spreading in alarming numbers through the billabongs, rivers and beaches of the Top End. Thousands of cattle are being killed and attacks on people are increasing every year. They showed that crocs are now being found in places where crocs were previously unknown. They tracked one that moved 20k’s in 2 hours, which means areas that are thought to be safe can become unsafe very quickly. Their conclusion was that something needed to be done, but didn’t say what.


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## longqi (May 29, 2011)

Daryn ..Pity I can only like that once^^^^

Steve
Dont come to Bali
Lousy bloody fishing here
Have to head to Papua or Kalimantan for anything decent


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## mmafan555 (May 29, 2011)

How many people are actullay killed by Saltwater Crocodiles in the Northern Territory each year?

What about overall number of attacks?


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## Bluetongue1 (May 29, 2011)

mmafan555 said:


> How many people are actullay killed by Saltwater Crocodiles in the Northern Territory each year?
> 
> What about overall number of attacks?


Don't you know how to Google?

Blue


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## BallaratWildlife (Jun 4, 2011)

Having been privileges enough to work with these animals up in Queensland on a daily basis i can understand how people would resent the idea about having crocodiles around, however, a few points of opinion:
1 to compare removing a tiapan from your house to removing crocs from a river is frankly stupid, if i had a crocodile in my living room than your argument may have more validity, maybe saying having to remove a tiapan from the back paddock would be more accurate, 
2 on average a crocodile thrives on 1 gram of food per kilo of body weight (under natural conditions, yes, they do on occasion kill and eat people, but there is no way they would choose people over other food, a 4 meter croc has a stomach the size of a basket ball, eating 2 mud crabs or half a wallaby takes alot less effort than a 6ft man, so yes be careful, but crocs will never choose people over other food. 
3 the argument that crocodiles have reached pre hunting levels and are moving into new areas, they have had 280 million years to disapate, any place on earth suitable for crocodilians already had them in one form or another, these "new areas" are generaly areas crocodiles have not been since since shooting and are returning, not spreading, also, being an apex preditior they can never over populate, otherwise food would simply disapear, one big reach is their sucses rate (roughly 1 in 50, the other is the canabilism rate (in some areas up to 30% of a crocs diet is smaller crocodiels


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## SteveNT (Jun 4, 2011)

Nobody "resents having them around". People here are happy to share the environment as much as possible (for some people they are a significant food resource.)

What's under debate is the need to cull crocs that are stalking (yes, stalking) local Communities. Just because they cant fit all of you into their stomach doesnt mean they wont kill you for what they can fit in.

I am a 6 foot bloke and I have been attacked (unsuccessfully I'm happy to report) in a river system boiling with fish and turtles. Crocs will choose people over other food if the opportunity presents itself.

On the culling thing the authorities in Florida discovered that culling 10% of the poulation of adult alligators resulted in a 0% decline in the population because the biggest predator of gators is bigger gators.

On your first point if you live in Ngukurr or Daly River or a similar River Community you experience annual flooding, often in the backyard and sometimes the lounge. The crocs do come in and take the dogs and stalk the people. 
How would you deal with this? Leave I suppose, but this is not always an option. 

A well placed bullet or spear can sort this quickly. It was always thus


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## longqi (Jun 4, 2011)

Ballarat
Queensland is vastly different to NT in both numbers and localities of big crocs
A big croc outside a classroom full of kids is pretty fair comparison to a Taipan in your house??

Barramundi netting is forbidden in NT and that is the biggest difference
Nets kill more crocs than anything else so without nets their increase has been far more dramatic up north

Although they eat rarely in the wild they prefer to eat one large meal than several small ones
This lets them rest more and is the main reason they have not changed much for millions of years
Feeding small meals more regularly is only something that is done at displays and farms
It is done there to increase growth and decrease attacks between crocs

Yes they are moving into old hunting areas; but those old hunting areas now contain humans
If they stayed in the parks in controlled numbers no-one would ever worry about them
But when they continually turn up in populated areas in ever increasing numbers there is reason for concern
Especially since a lot of the larger ones are showing exactly zero fear of those defenseless things called humans

Cannibalism will be one of the reasons they are spreading out more rapidly now
As the National Parks get over populated the over flow has to go somewhere
It goes into more populated areas
Because they can simply spread out more now without hindrance the 1 in 50 ratio is most probably very wrong
The reason is that now they can escape predation by other crocs by moving into another river system
I would estimate 1 in 30 maximum at the present time
If they were permitted to spread out where ever they wanted to eventually they would reach saturation point and the 1 in 50 may come into play again


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## SteveNT (Jun 4, 2011)

Longqi

Netting (commercial and amateur) is still legal in several rivers and a lot of coastline in the NT but now regulated (you cannot net more than half of a creek mouth, etc). The only thing the current Govt has got right so far is buying back a lot of the commercial fish and crab licenses and barring commercial fishing in several big rivers (the Finnis is next, YAHOO!!)

What is scary is that there are reports from traditional owners and researchers that salties are "climbing" areas of rapids and entering places even the TO's have never known them to be (and there are some long long memories there). Until now I have always "known" that salties dont climb and you are safe(r) above upstream structures. I have recently re-evaluated!

Also there are few National Parks where they are spreading from, most breeding areas are on pastoral or aboriginal land.

Off topic, I was in Bali a couple of years ago and waded/swam to a reef at low tide and it was devastated. Only the utterly inedible and juvenile remained. Population madness! All other environmental problems stem fom this. If anything needs culling it's us mate.
How many people in Arnhem Land compared to Bali? Same physical area. It's frightening.


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## Darlyn (Jun 4, 2011)

BallaratWildlife said:


> Having been privileges enough to work with these animals up in Queensland on a daily basis i can understand how people would resent the idea about having crocodiles around, however, a few points of opinion:
> 1 to compare removing a tiapan from your house to removing crocs from a river is frankly stupid, if i had a crocodile in my living room than your argument may have more validity, maybe saying having to remove a tiapan from the back paddock would be more accurate,
> 2 on average a crocodile thrives on 1 gram of food per kilo of body weight (under natural conditions, yes, they do on occasion kill and eat people, but there is no way they would choose people over other food, a 4 meter croc has a stomach the size of a basket ball, eating 2 mud crabs or half a wallaby takes alot less effort than a 6ft man, so yes be careful, but crocs will never choose people over other food.
> 3 the argument that crocodiles have reached pre hunting levels and are moving into new areas, they have had 280 million years to disapate, any place on earth suitable for crocodilians already had them in one form or another, these "new areas" are generaly areas crocodiles have not been since since shooting and are returning, not spreading, also, being an apex preditior they can never over populate, otherwise food would simply disapear, one big reach is their sucses rate (roughly 1 in 50, the other is the canabilism rate (in some areas up to 30% of a crocs diet is smaller crocodiels


 
1. Walking out your front door, worried about being attacked by a predator known to kill humans makes that a moot point. There is no prize for what is more dangerous. Just recognition that there is a very real threat to human life.
2. The confirmed crocodile attacks are “confirmed” because they have retrieved a body and can find proof of a croc attack. . There are a few unconfirmed attacks that are unconfirmed because they have found no body (they may have drowned). So, mostly crocs don't consume their victims. This would indicate to me that the attacks are motivated be territorial behaviour rather than hunger.
3. This year has been the biggest wet season since the first records were kept in 1966. This means that crocs have access to places unheard of for 44 years. This also means crocs encroaching in more areas that humans frequent. This discussion is about the population of crocs now, not 280 million years ago.


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## BallaratWildlife (Jun 12, 2011)

As said, these points are only my opinion and i understand everyone will have their own, 
but walking out your front door there is a million things you should worry about yes, crocodiles may well be one of them, but i can garentee there is more murders in darwin annually than crocodile attacks, do you not let your kids play at the park for fear of muderers? its all calculated risk. 
as for the amount they eat, they can certianly look at a human as food, as well all know, but i refuse to believe that they would prefer a huge food soruce over a smaller one (as long as that small one will fill their stocmach to capacity it is the more energy effecient food. the reason for me believing this, several of the crocs at my last place of work were recently caught "problem"crocodiles, and all were put into use for feeding shows straight away, now im only a little bloke and all the males are capable of taking me, however the only time they took their eyes of the food on my pole was when myself became an easier target than the fish, (making me a more energy effecient choice) their is no reason why a crocodile would seek out humans over other food, the take people, yes its sad, but just seeing that most attacks happen where people swim reguyalaly would show you if they chose us as a preference, everytime someone went there there would be a fatality


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## SteveNT (Jun 12, 2011)

Most attacks happen where people swim rarely.

I'm sorry for you if there are a million things to worry about when you go out your door.

You cant seriously compare your adventures at the circus to field observations. 

Regarding children, when my daughter was seven she handled a dinghy like a pro but got a wobble up on a pushbike. One time I went to pick her up from school (Thunder Rock School, Black Point, Port Essington, Cobourg Peninsular, Arnhem Land, Northern Territory, (0-8 students) and there was a 3 meter croc resting across the front door. Very concerned little faces at the windows (teacher too). 

I bunged a few rocks at him and he dragged himself down to the beach (50 meters away). We hopped in the tinny and my daughter drove the tinny 3km back to home.

I dont think you know anything about living with crocs really.


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## BallaratWildlife (Jun 17, 2011)

Steve i am sorry if in any of my posts i seemed to claim more experience than anyone, however whos experience can i speak from if not my own, i as well as anyone understand there is an issue here, and stories like yours at the school are a great example, im saying however that this issue is still something that we give more credit to than others, how many people each year do you think drown on rivers capsizing dingys and things? 
I have no issue at all with crocodile control, however i believe the "we'l get rid of them all" approach is a dangerous one, as isn't
that the perfect situation that leads to someone being in the water when they come back?


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