# bredli ruined now aswell



## biggie (Feb 14, 2009)

i just found these pics of bredli jags i personally think they look lets say different


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## mrillusion (Feb 14, 2009)

biggie said:


> i just found these pics of bredli jags i personally think they look lets say different


Wow abit of an understatement "different" i think its more than that.


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## BlindSnake (Feb 14, 2009)

mrillusion said:


> Wow abit of an understatement "different" i think its more than that.


 
Yeah, a very confused butt ugly snake would be more close to the mark.


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## mrillusion (Feb 14, 2009)

BlindSnake said:


> Yeah, a very confused butt ugly snake would be more close to the mark.


Thats the word i was thinking of lol


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## ecosnake (Feb 14, 2009)

I have voiced my opinions on, hybrids, designer snakes, beast or what ever you like to call them so many times! But really you have to take them for what they are and my views have change a little. I guess with those examples you can easily tell what they are "designe animals" like them or not, its those you cant tell what they are and those breeders that dont say what they are, thats the real issue.


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## aspidito (Feb 14, 2009)

They are different & you do have to take them for what they are, & that is a stunning looking animal


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## gold&black... (Feb 14, 2009)

biggie said:


> i just found these pics of bredli jags i personally think they look lets say different




Different or unique... Say what u may... Those are animals I would love to have in my collection..... Take my word, the whole purist thing will always have the upper hand when it comes to pure bred animals but designer will always b a step above... The reason, we humans love to b different and would never like being compared to the next.....If what u have is what u have, then I want ALWAYS some thing better... If u get a JAG I want a Ferrari...


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## Pythonking (Feb 14, 2009)

aspidito said:


> They are different & you do have to take them for what they are, & that is a stunning looking animal


 

lol yea... forget your medication this morning? I do think jags such as the one in reptile australia do look stunning however these animals stunning hehehehahaha yea lol.


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## Vassallo2008 (Feb 14, 2009)

lol Either way there snakes .. Dont hate em cause of the owners mistake..


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## krefft (Feb 14, 2009)

Quick, kill it before it escapes!!


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## Reptilian66 (Feb 14, 2009)

l thought it was illegal to cross-breed Centralian Carpet Python's, with any other subspecies of Carpet Python, because they are isolated from the rest of the subspecies of Carpet Python, l seriously would check with your local wildlife authority to see if you can cross-breed them.
Personnaly l would not support those who go out their way to create a new color phase or hybrid Carpet Python, they all should be distroyed on the spot so we only have pure ones in the pet trade, this is the reason why l no-longer purchase any Carpet Python's , because you just don't know what your getting in your hands, at least with Olive Python's you know their pure, cause no-one can create a new color phase or hybrid with them, so l will just stick to my Olive Python's as a pet Python, they sure a beautiful and placid to have in the home, what else could you want from having a pet Python.


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## ecosnake (Feb 14, 2009)

Reptilian66 said:


> l thought it was illegal to cross-breed .


 

It is in Australia.


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## brettmo (Feb 14, 2009)

Wow, awesome looking python in the 2nd photo


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## Retic (Feb 14, 2009)

Wow, beautiful.


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## Kurto (Feb 14, 2009)

They do look pretty cool. Though this is not new at all, bredli jags have been around for a fair while.


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## funcouple (Feb 14, 2009)

Vassallo2008 said:


> lol Either way there snakes .. Dont hate em cause of the owners mistake..


i really dont think these bredli mongrals were the result of their owners mistake


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## Hooglabah (Feb 14, 2009)

its not illegal to cross breed in all of australia dse dont care what you do as far as breeding goes. 

its illegal in some states not sure wich ones but by no means is it illegal aus wide.

doesnt make it right tho however those snakes are really stunning dont care what anybody says id love to own them.


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## solar 17 (Feb 14, 2009)

*bredli / jag*

My folks ALWAYS said if you can,t say something nice ZIP-IT....CHEERS SOLAR 17 [Baden]


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## draqonfly (Feb 14, 2009)

if i had the choice of choosing an original bredli, a hypo bredli, or one of the two designer bredli as pictured in this post, i would choose the designer bredli's.

theyre even more attractive than the original bredlis. 

If you show a virgin snake enthusiasts pictures of the original bredlis and designer bredlis without telling which is pure and which is not, i wont be suprised that the designer ones will overtake the pure ones.


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

gold&black... said:


> Different or unique... Say what u may... Those are animals I would love to have in my collection.....


 

Ever notice with these mongrel mutants that there is only ever a pic of 1 animal from a clutch (and no mention of how many clutches were produced)???
Thats because the rest of the mutts are pig dog ugly (and should be euthanised) THATS A FACT. What will happen to these ugly offspring? No1 is going to want to buy them & breeders will not want to cull them and lose possible $$$ so will they be advertised as weird looking or ugly pures or what? I know a new line of such and such bred by the infamous so & so lmfao.

If you cross bred 10 clutches you might have enough offspring that are not tooo fugly to start a breeding trio (if your lucky) lmao.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> Ever notice with these mongrel mutants that there is only ever a pic of 1 animal from a clutch (and no mention of how many clutches were produced)???
> Thats because the rest of the mutts are pig dog ugly (and should be euthanised) THATS A FACT. What will happen to these ugly offspring? No1 is going to want to buy them & breeders will not want to cull them and lose possible $$$ so will they be advertised as weird looking or ugly pures or what? I know a new line of such and such bred by the infamous so & so lmfao.
> 
> If you cross bred 10 clutches you might have enough offspring that are not tooo fugly to start a breeding trio (if your lucky) lmao.



And i guess ur basing this on the years and years of jag breeding that you have done.  To create a designer morph you have to start somewhere and then line breed. And if you want to talk about ugly snakes, look closer to home. How many thousands of coastals are bred each year? Now that's ugly compared to these guys.


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## coz666 (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> Ever notice with these mongrel mutants that there is only ever a pic of 1 animal from a clutch (and no mention of how many clutches were produced)???
> Thats because the rest of the mutts are pig dog ugly (and should be euthanised) THATS A FACT. What will happen to these ugly offspring? No1 is going to want to buy them & breeders will not want to cull them and lose possible $$$ so will they be advertised as weird looking or ugly pures or what? I know a new line of such and such bred by the infamous so & so lmfao.
> 
> If you cross bred 10 clutches you might have enough offspring that are not tooo fugly to start a breeding trio (if your lucky) lmao.


 

most people who do this, kull all the hatchos except the 2 best. then they have something to work with.
they dont try and flog them off. so dont get so worked up. imo , alot of people dont realize that this has been going on for ages, and just because one person jumps up and down , its not a mexican wave.
the first person i saw with pythons that had been crossed ,was a friend of my dads in the 70S.


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> And i guess ur basing this on the years and years of jag breeding that you have done.  To create a designer morph you have to start somewhere and then line breed. And if you want to talk about ugly snakes, look closer to home. How many thousands of coastals are bred each year? Now that's ugly compared to these guys.


 
I didn't realize I had to be a Jag breeder to have an opinion on hybrids in general.
So I take it you have been breeding Jags for years and years yourself then since you seem to have an opinion on the matter also?
Anyway you havn't argued my point at all. It is still fact that out of several clutches there is only 1-2 1/2 decent looking animals produced. 



coz666 said:


> most people who do this, kull all the hatchos except the 2 best. then they have something to work with.
> they dont try and flog them off. so dont get so worked up. imo , alot of people dont realize that this has been going on for ages, and just because one person jumps up and down , its not a mexican wave.
> the first person i saw with pythons that had been crossed ,was a friend of my dads in the 70S.


 
I wish I could believe that they were culled, however when you see the amount of hybrids advertised here in Aus + the amount of so called pures posted on here only for the owner to be flamed and attacked for unknowingly buying a cross breed snake it is hard to believe that all breeders are being responsible.


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## Reptilian66 (Feb 14, 2009)

All you young Reptile Keepers out there, just don't care one bit about the future of our Reptile's, you only think of how much money you can pocket by creating new color morpth or hybrid species and giving them all these new fancy names, just to make others think you have a new subspecies, by cross-breeding our beautiful Carpet-Stimpson-Childreni-Woma-Black-Headed Python's.
l have been keeping Australian Python's since 1989, and l have been lucky to get hold of a few subspecies of Carpet Python, that all were pure and unrelated to each other not hybrid.
Why is it that you don't see those who work in the Zoo's-Museum's-University's Zoological Departments, trying to creat new color morpths or hybrid's, the reason why is because they care about the future of our Reptile's, and want to keep them all close to how nature created them and that is pure unrelated disease free.
Between 2001 to 2004 l was very lucky to be able to collect (Sand-Ridge-Tailed-Pygmy-Mulga Monitor's and Centralian Blue-Tongue's) from the wild on Permit,just so l could get pure unrelated, cause in captivity these days too many cross-breed between different subspecies and brother or sister, because those who have them, would not know where they came from natually in the wild, or even think to ask who they get them from, what area do they come from in the wild, l never purchase any Reptile's from anyone, unless they can proove to me, what they have available where it come from natually in the wild, cause l care alot about the future of Reptile's in this country, l'm not one of those who got into Reptile Keeping just for the sake of Money, l have adore them since l was 5 years old, they have always been my passion.


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## Khagan (Feb 14, 2009)

I think you're confused between ruined and improved ;D.


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

Khagan said:


> I think you're confused between ruined and improved ;D.


 
How can an animal that produces approx 99% fugly offspring (sometimes 100%) be an improvement over a natural type?

Why would you want to breed 10's of clutches to produce a minute amount of "so called good looking animals" while at the same time (if your a moral person) cull hundreds of offspring that may be perfectly healthy but are unwanted in the hobby?


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> Ever notice with these mongrel mutants that there is only ever a pic of 1 animal from a clutch (and no mention of how many clutches were produced)???
> Thats because the rest of the mutts are pig dog ugly (and should be euthanised) THATS A FACT. What will happen to these ugly offspring? No1 is going to want to buy them & breeders will not want to cull them and lose possible $$$ so will they be advertised as weird looking or ugly pures or what? I know a new line of such and such bred by the infamous so & so lmfao.
> 
> *If you cross bred 10 clutches you might have enough offspring that are not tooo fugly to start a breeding trio (if your lucky) lmao.*



Yeah to make a statement like that *^^* and that *v v* you need to be able to back it up with something. 



amazonian said:


> I didn't realize I had to be a Jag breeder to have an opinion on hybrids in general.
> So I take it you have been breeding Jags for years and years yourself then since you seem to have an opinion on the matter also?
> *Anyway you havn't argued my point at all. It is still fact that out of several clutches there is only 1-2 1/2 decent looking animals produced. *



I've got minimal experience with jags and minimal experience with line breeding. But i consider myself an expert on mindless ramblings based on emotions that circulate the internet.  *OOoooh sNaP!* :lol:


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## Khagan (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> How can an animal that produces approx 99% fugly offspring (sometimes 100%) be an improvement over a natural type?
> 
> Why would you want to breed 10's of clutches to produce a minute amount of "so called good looking animals" while at the same time (if your a moral person) cull hundreds of offspring that may be perfectly healthy but are unwanted in the hobby?



Personally i don't think Bredli are good looking to start with, especially adult ones they look craptacular.


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## funcouple (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> And i guess ur basing this on the years and years of jag breeding that you have done.  To create a designer morph you have to start somewhere and then line breed. And if you want to talk about ugly snakes, look closer to home. How many thousands of coastals are bred each year? Now that's ugly compared to these guys.


correct me if im wrong. but from the little breeding experience that i have and understand of breeding, these snakes havent been line bred to create a morph. their to different species cross bred to create a hybrid. once the hybrid is probduce they then maybe line bred to breed out the butt ugly ones


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> Yeah to make a statement like that *^^* and that *v v* you need to be able to back it up with something.
> 
> *I have seen my fair share of hybrid clutches.*
> *I have NOT partook in any cross breeding myself but I have aquientences that do it and the results are as I stated. *
> ...


..... ......


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## Ramsayi (Feb 14, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> if i had the choice of choosing an original bredli, a hypo bredli, or one of the two designer bredli as pictured in this post, i would choose the designer bredli's.
> 
> theyre even more attractive than the original bredlis.
> 
> If you show a virgin snake enthusiasts pictures of the original bredlis and designer bredlis without telling which is pure and which is not, i wont be suprised that the designer ones will overtake the pure ones.



How are they designer bredli? They are not bredli and can never be a bredli again.


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## caustichumor (Feb 14, 2009)

It is no longer a Bredli python, it has joined the Homogeneous Morelia species....


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## pythons73 (Feb 14, 2009)

Well said Reptillian66,


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## pythoness (Feb 14, 2009)

all aniimals are beautiful, no matter wheather pure or mungrel. it's a stunning looking animal, regardles of it geneology. I have never seen an ugly animal in all my travels, only ugly attitudes. :O


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## funcouple (Feb 14, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> It is no longer a Bredli python, it has joined the Homogeneous Morelia species....


if it was in NSW it shouldnt be given a species name or number as its stated under your licence conditions that its illegal to breed sub species together


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

funcouple said:


> correct me if im wrong. but from the little breeding experience that i have and understand of breeding, these snakes havent been line bred to create a morph. their to different species cross bred to create a hybrid. once the hybrid is probduce they then maybe line bred to breed out the butt ugly ones



Yes you are right except that these would be (i assume) the F1s in a breeding project so they are the beginning of the line, i would have worded it different but yeah that's basically how it works. But like i said designer animals have to start from somewhere. 



amazonian said:


> I have seen my fair share of hybrid clutches.
> I have NOT partook in any cross breeding myself but I have aquientences that do it and the results are as I stated.
> 
> If this is not good enough then feel free to proove me wrong with entire clutch pics please.
> ...



Produce these clutches, show them to atleast sub adult colours, show them to a group of people who's minds aren't clouded with 'it's not pure so it's ruined' get their opinion and then i'll agree/disagree with you. You are the one trying to prove something, the onus is on you to prove it. I have no doubt i could show you the best looking hybrid in the world and you wouldn't bat an eyelid at it simply because it is not 'pure'. At the same time i could show you a clutch of the most ugly looking locality snakes and you would most likely wet yourself saying how beautiful they are. 

Point is each animal has it's own merits. I really don't get why this strikes so deeply into the heart of Aussie herpers, it's in the US (edit: or somewhere in Europe), it has nothing to do with us, it doesn't affect us in anyway. If you don't like hybrids buy your snakes from someone who you know has locality snakes. 

I'm Australian and live here so i don't have first hand experience with jags, i thought that would be obvious . OK as for my minimal experience with line breeding i have helped in the following projects bredli, womas, bhps and stimmis. Is that cool with you? The projects started about 5 years ago. Oh and darwins, i forgot them.


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## draqonfly (Feb 14, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> How are they designer bredli? They are not bredli and can never be a bredli again.



ok you're right.

the op should change the title of this thread, its not Bredli's thats ruined. its a different breed.


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## megrim (Feb 14, 2009)

ecosnake said:


> It is in Australia.



Not illegal in Victoria in the slightest.

Explicitly illegal in QLD, not sure about anywhere else, someone else has suggested it's stated as illegal in NSW, but I've not read their legislature yet.


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## funcouple (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> Yes you are right except that these would be (i assume) the F1s in a breeding project so they are the beginning of the line, i would have worded it different but yeah that's basically how it works. But like i said designer animals have to start from somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so if their the so called F1, the begining of the line. they cant be a morph, the are a hybrid. the reason it strikes so deeply to us aussie herpers is that we all are concerned about the health of our native snakes not the quick buck that can be made from these hybrids. just think about whom will want these so called stunning hybrids in 5 years time when something better has been produced. what will these hybrids be worth after a new hybrid has been produced? the old hybrid will drop in price as the new hybrid is produced till their worth nothing as no one will want them as they will be the ones that will then be classed as but ugly


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## NotoriouS (Feb 14, 2009)

here we go again... I always stay out of these debates but I don't find these particular ones attractive. I would take a classic Bredli over them anyday (purely because I think they still look better than these 'designer' snakes )


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## megrim (Feb 14, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> I would take a classic Bredli over them anyday )



I agree. I'll admit that I find the prettier hybrids amazing to look at, but in terms of personal taste, the animals pictured in the O.P. don't really 'do it' for me. I think it's difficult for Australian reptiles (which are, with the notable exceptions perhaps of GTP's and common tree snakes, rather bland in colouring) to compete with these designer hybrid things. Especially in terms of people not interested in pure locality stuff. If I were looking for a 'display' animal, a simple pet, I'm pretty sure I'd go with a designer mongrel over a pure but plain Childreni.
Especially if I didn't have access to these sorts of sites and debates. Until I joined this site I didn't even realise the hybrid 'issue' was such a hot topic, and I dare say the vast majority of young herpers don't know of it either.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

funcouple said:


> so if their the so called F1, the begining of the line. they cant be a morph, the are a hybrid. the reason it strikes so deeply in us aussie herpers is the we all all concerned about the health of our native snakes not the quick buck that can be made from these hybrids. just think about whom we want these so called stunning hybrids in 5 year when something better has been produced. what will these hybrids be worth after a new hybrid has been produced? the old hybrid will drop in price as the new hybrid is produced till their worth nothing as no one will want them as they will be the ones that will then be classed as but ugly



Again that's emotion talking 'i'm just concerned for the welfare of the animals.'

What's going to happen in 5 years time to your bhp pair when bhp fall out of desire? What is going to happen to your coastal in 5 years time when we can all afford chondros? Who's gonna care for them then? If they fall out of desire that badly people will stop producing them, similar to what we have seen with water pythons about 5-7 years ago. If you're that concerned about our native snakes in the pet trade why not turn your attention to the people pumping out thousands of coastals and childrens each season and flogging them off to people who don't understand how to look after them. 

They are a morph because they are jags, they are also a hybrid because there is a minimum of two species in the mix there.


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## Australis (Feb 14, 2009)

Having a quick squizz on international sites, i see the "sibs" to jags clutches, are regularly advertised
and sold... and to be honest... damn fugly!.. and have nothing on a nice normal coastal carpet IMO.

Although, my opinion/taste is naturally worthless.. like the rest of you ignorant naive Aussies who 
don't understand you MUST follow, admire and mirror everything you see o/s... none of us are 
smart enough to think for ourselves, were like a zillion years behind the developed world you know 
So buy some kneepads and get to work!


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

oshakoor said:


> here we go again... I always stay out of these debates but I don't find these particular ones attractive. I would take a classic Bredli over them anyday (purely because I think they still look better than these 'designer' snakes )



I'm beginning to remember why i stay out of these threads too. Far too much emotion.


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## caustichumor (Feb 14, 2009)

Australis said:


> So buy some kneepads and get to work!



Kneepads are so temporary, calouses show commitment


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## ecosnake (Feb 14, 2009)

megrim said:


> Not illegal in Victoria in the slightest.
> 
> Explicitly illegal in QLD, not sure about anywhere else, someone else has suggested it's stated as illegal in NSW, but I've not read their legislature yet.


 

Ok I stand corrected, I live in Qld one rule for one state one rule for another...lol


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

I remember when the pied childrens popped up in a US collection. We had this same debate on this very forum about how the yanks had ruined another aussie species . 

And you guys do know there is something you can do about these hybrids and crosses flooding the market right? You support the practice that you think is the best. Don't buy from people who you think are producing crosses and only buy locality animals. If enough people feel the same as you do you will end up pushing them out of the market.


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## funcouple (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> Again that's emotion talking 'i'm just concerned for the welfare of the animals.'
> 
> What's going to happen in 5 years time to your bhp pair when bhp fall out of desire? What is going to happen to your coastal in 5 years time when we can all afford chondros? Who's gonna care for them then? If they fall out of desire that badly people will stop producing them, similar to what we have seen with water pythons about 5-7 years ago. If you're that concerned about our native snakes in the pet trade why not turn your attention to the people pumping out thousands of coastals and childrens each season and flogging them off to people who don't understand how to look after them.
> 
> They are a morph because they are jags, they are also a hybrid because there is a minimum of two species in the mix there.


they arent a morph because their jags. a jag is just the name given to a hybrid to make it more exeptable. think about it, a bredli jag sounds better than a bredli hybrid.
yes you are partly right in what will be the in snakes in 5 years. but if these hybrids are here our natives wont be.
as for snakes being flogged to people not knowing or understanding how to look after them i have emailed NSW NPWS and asked that they concider adding that people must do a keeping course before a licence is issued. yes i did a keeping a python course before getting my first snake, and i did learn from it.


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## WombleHerp (Feb 14, 2009)

i like them


Nat  x


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## Renagade (Feb 14, 2009)

I hardly think they are ruined






As true bloodline are avalable overseas, why do you we think that ours are immediatly threatened here? Also hybrids are already available here, If you dont already second guess the bloodlines of your snakes the you purchace, than you are being far to trustworthy. last week on herptrader there was an inland x jungle for a rediculous price. but was a good pet, never bitten. what if someone wanted 'just a snake' and like the ideas of having it. would be a shame to hack at them in regards to their new pride and joy. these pics are all from over seas, but the amount that it already here makes me feel like many of you are burying your head in the sand. get used to the idea. 
ren


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

funcouple said:


> they arent a morph because their jags. a jag is just the name given to a hybrid to make it more exeptable. think about it, a bredli jag sounds better than a bredli hybrid.
> yes you are partly right in what will be the in snakes in 5 years. but if these hybrids are here our natives wont be.
> as for snakes being flogged to people not knowing or understanding how to look after them i have emailed NSW NPWS and asked that they concider adding that people must do a keeping course before a licence is issued. yes i did a keeping a python course before getting my first snake, and i did learn from it.



You do know that a jag is a co-dom genetic morph right? With these being jags that makes them a morph.


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## WombleHerp (Feb 14, 2009)

Renagade said:


> I hardly think they are ruined
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
i like that piccy! very very pretty indeed.

guys, i mean, come on... they are all still snakes are they not?? isnt that the reason we all got into the hobby in the first place? because we liked snakes and other herps in some way?

i am a fan of hybrids

Nat  x


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## aspidito (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> ..... ......




For goodness sake have a look at some international forums & you will see full clutches of designer jag morphs, all very desireable animals & anyone who states they are ugly is fooling themselves, not me!
These animals are leading the way in the USA, UK & Europe & the same will happen here.


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## megrim (Feb 14, 2009)

ecosnake said:


> Ok I stand corrected, I live in Qld one rule for one state one rule for another...lol


 
Don't get me wrong, I'd quite like to see the practice at least heavily monitored in all states. 

The DSE is quite interesting in that I can find no mention of breeding practices or guidelines _at all_. Not even touched on. I'd have thought there would be at least _some _legislature regarding breeding in Victoria, but I cannot for the life of me find any and haven't been directed to any by other members here either.


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

aspidito said:


> For goodness sake have a look at some international forums & you will see full clutches of designer jag morphs, all very desireable animals & anyone who states they are ugly is fooling themselves, not me!
> These animals are leading the way in the USA, UK & Europe & the same will happen here.


 
How many clutches were produced to get these results you speak of?
As you said they are designer morphs right (meaning they have been line bred for many generations for certain traits?). So it is fair to say the results were ugly offspring early in the piece? because we all know putting a Coastal over a Jungle will not give us anywhere near the results of Jags advertised these days right?

Thanks but Id rather spend the time line breeding pure animals for similar results.

Don't confuse my statements about Hybrids (2 pure species cross bred) in Australia for anything remotrely to do with Jaguars. For starters jags do not concern me atm as they are not the problems being advertised as pure in this country.


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## funcouple (Feb 14, 2009)

Renagade said:


> I hardly think they are ruined
> 
> 
> 
> ...


im not burying my head in the sand. yes they are here. but they shouldnt be here in at least NSW, it states on your licence condition that its illegal to cross breed sub species together. hence why they shouldnt be here. sorry but NPWS should watch all clasifieds and seize all hybrids that come up for sale. yes this may push these hybrids under-ground, but it will make the sale of these hybrids harder as they wont be readily available.


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> i dont think NPSW will actually go out and inspect unless they have hard core evidence, and also if they are not lazy as they are working for the government.


 
I can garuntee you that DEC will investigate, especially now with a new Quaruntine team.
My ex's house & my home was raided last week over my GTP's.
Because I used her internet account one day to advertise a yellow snake for sale DEC thought it was time for a random inspection and to make sure I wasn't harbouring exotics. 
They had info on myself, my ex, my mother and even my grandfather. No idea how they got all that but they did. But all was good they just wanted to see the animals & my books etc. 

My advice, be careful what you write on these forums hey.
They have more pull then you think.


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## funcouple (Feb 14, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> i dont think NPSW will actually go out and inspect unless they have hard core evidence, and also if they are not lazy as they are working for the government.
> 
> i called up the hotline when i rented a copied dvd movie from one of the dvd stores here in cabra... i called the number that they put on before the movie starts to report the violators... i was then transfered by the operator to another number after telling her there was a guy copying dvd's and selling them, i called that other number, and told them the story and they told me to call another number.... after 4 times of calling different numbers, and all of them not wanting to move their asses coz they just dont care, .
> 
> and the reason why i decided to report the guy, was because he pissed me off.


its fairly easy to get the evidence when an advertiser avderties a crossed snake. i.e. coastal xjungle, bredli x diamond. the evidence is there for all to see.


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## draqonfly (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> I can garuntee you that DEC will investigate, especially now with a new Quaruntine team.
> My ex's house & my home was raided last week over my GTP's.
> Because I used her internet account one day to advertise a yellow snake for sale DEC thought it was time for a random inspection and to make sure I wasn't harbouring exotics.
> They had info on myself, my ex, my mother and even my grandfather. No idea how they got all that but they did. But all was good they just wanted to see the animals & my books etc.
> ...



thats nasty ! good to hear everything went ok.

just wish the other departments werent so lazy.


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## Bax155 (Feb 14, 2009)

I dont like em at all they just look odd, like if you were to wake up in the morning and go outside and the grass was blue and the sky green, it just wouldnt feel right would it?? Animals were created the way they were for a reason and not for us to play crazy scientists with cross breeding and inbreeding to get colours and patterns we find appealing, find a snake that appeals to you in its natural form dont change a snake to suit you, Im sure with all the snakes out there your sure to find one that you like!!


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## Slytherin (Feb 14, 2009)

I normally stay out of these threads because some people on this site can get overly emotional about it and start attacking others. While I can understand both sides of the argument, I think sometimes people need to step back and relax a little. Some of the morphs can look good but on the other hand there still needs to be a pure bloodline maintained so the original species isnt lost.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

Just a question.

Has there ever been a case where the original species of a hybrid/morph or both ever been lost and only the 'deigner' phase still exist? The only possible one i can think of are horses??


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## Slytherin (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> Just a question.
> 
> Has there ever been a case where the original species of a hybrid/morph or both ever been lost and only the 'deigner' phase still exist? The only possible one i can think of are horses??


 

Lol...humans


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## LauraM (Feb 14, 2009)

they look perfectly normal


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## cement (Feb 14, 2009)

When you look at the scene in europe its easy to understand that if captives get loose into the wild they won't do any damage. They won't last a winter, and you could count the local endemic herp species on one hand. This is a great reason for keepers in these countries to be able to have such animals as hybrids and exotics.

Aus is a different story. This is the land of the python. It is possibly detrimental to our native fauna to have hybrids in collections. The reason is because when there is many around they will be sold off cheap as chips and will end up in the wild.

Enjoy the pictures all you like but please use some maturity and research wild snakes and possible effects on local native populations before ever handing over cash for (make that "to") these freaks.


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## Renagade (Feb 14, 2009)

cement said:


> When you look at the scene in europe its easy to understand that if captives get loose into the wild they won't do any damage. They won't last a winter, and you could count the local endemic herp species on one hand. This is a great reason for keepers in these countries to be able to have such animals as hybrids and exotics.
> 
> Aus is a different story. This is the land of the python. It is possibly detrimental to our native fauna to have hybrids in collections. The reason is because when there is many around they will be sold off cheap as chips and will end up in the wild.
> 
> Enjoy the pictures all you like but please use some maturity and research wild snakes and possible effects on local native populations before ever handing over cash for (make that "to") these freaks.


 
why do you think hybrids will end up in the wild more so than the chronic amount of people who already 'loose' their snakes? are you assuming that they will be cheaper and thus more friverlously handled/kept? i fail to see such a steep relation.


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## Rep-Style (Feb 14, 2009)

what a stunner of a snake


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## Khagan (Feb 14, 2009)

cement said:


> Aus is a different story. This is the land of the python. It is possibly detrimental to our native fauna to have hybrids in collections. The reason is because when there is many around they will be sold off cheap as chips and will end up in the wild..



Are the cheaper range of our pythons now always being dumped in the wild? I don't see how just cause it is a hybrid it would change.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> Ever notice with these mongrel mutants that there is only ever a pic of 1 animal from a clutch (and no mention of how many clutches were produced)???
> Thats because the rest of the mutts are pig dog ugly (and should be euthanised) THATS A FACT.
> .





amazonian said:


> How many clutches were produced to get these results you speak of?
> As you said they are designer morphs right (meaning they have been line bred for many generations for certain traits?). So it is fair to say the results were ugly offspring early in the piece? because we all know putting a Coastal over a Jungle will not give us anywhere near the results of Jags advertised these days right?.




?? The Jag gene is a proven co-dom mutation....

This is a cut out from some of the first ever original Jag to normal matings.....
......................................................
The following year I managed to produce approximately 50% normals and 50% Jaguars from two unrelated mcdowelli females. This suggests that the Jaguar gene is of a co-dominant trait. 
One female (#2 on the Coastal page) laid 49 eggs, whereas 4 were non-viable. 22 Jaguars and 23 normal sibs was the result from this clutch. Perhaps not so astonishing since the female at the time was 11 feet long and weighing close to 22 pounds, but still a pretty impressive sized clutch.
Thanks to the founder Jaguar male.
......................................................

Not interested in any arguments, you are free to your opinion. Just think you should know a little about an animal before you bag it with 'facts' on an open forum.


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## biggie (Feb 14, 2009)

i think heaps are nice to look at but they shouldn't exist


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## elapid66 (Feb 14, 2009)

hybrids rule im thinkin


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## DerekRoddy (Feb 14, 2009)

cement said:


> When you look at the scene in europe its easy to understand that if captives get loose into the wild they won't do any damage.
> Aus is a different story. This is the land of the python. It is possibly detrimental to our native fauna to have hybrids in collections.
> 
> Enjoy the pictures all you like but please use some maturity and research wild snakes and possible effects on local native populations before ever handing over cash for (make that "to") these freaks.



And, I guess the 3 post a month that shows up here saying...."Help, my male Bredls python escaped from his cage"....doesn't do, just as much damage.... if it gets into the wild huh? Esp...if you live in Queensland.
Happens all the time...so if you wonder why that coastal you found in your back yard, just doesn't look right............

D.


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## Earthling (Feb 14, 2009)

Nice looking snakes.
Particularly like the second 'platinum' one.


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## aspidito (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> How many clutches were produced to get these results you speak of?
> As you said they are designer morphs right (meaning they have been line bred for many generations for certain traits?). So it is fair to say the results were ugly offspring early in the piece? because we all know putting a Coastal over a Jungle will not give us anywhere near the results of Jags advertised these days right?
> 
> Thanks but Id rather spend the time line breeding pure animals for similar results.
> ...



You should do some research first then come back with a valid argument:


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## Retic (Feb 14, 2009)

:lol: Ah yes Europe, what a lovely country that is. You must have a very big hand to count 80 plus species all of which presumably die every winter in the frozen wasteland. 



cement said:


> When you look at the scene in europe its easy to understand that if captives get loose into the wild they won't do any damage. They won't last a winter, and you could count the local endemic herp species on one hand. This is a great reason for keepers in these countries to be able to have such animals as hybrids and exotics.
> 
> Aus is a different story. This is the land of the python. It is possibly detrimental to our native fauna to have hybrids in collections. The reason is because when there is many around they will be sold off cheap as chips and will end up in the wild.
> 
> Enjoy the pictures all you like but please use some maturity and research wild snakes and possible effects on local native populations before ever handing over cash for (make that "to") these freaks.


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

Den said:


> ?? The Jag gene is a proven co-dom mutation....
> 
> This is a cut out from some of the first ever original Jag to normal matings.....
> ......................................................
> ...


 
Are we talking Hybrids or designer morphs now?
And are we starting from the beginning bredings (as I suggested) or with an already established Jaguar? 

BTW Jags have nada to do with my comments, I think you have missed my point completely.




aspidito said:


> You should do some research first then come back with a valid argument:


 
I dont give a crap about Jags (as I already stated)
I am discussing hybrids of 2 pure species ok (as I stated)
Put a coastal over a Jungle and tell me if you get a clutch of 100% lookers.

Take Jags out of the equation for a minute as I have clearly (several times now) made it apparent (obviously not clearly enough) that I am trying to discuss HYBRIDS IN AUS.
Is my comments any clearer yet? I am discussing HYBRIDS NOT DESIGNER MORPHS, NOT JAGUARS AND NOT GOLDFISH. 

But if defending Australian hybrids with overseas Jag morphs is your go then so be it.
Not once have I said Jags are ugly ok, I have said Hybrids are and I stand by that comment. 
So as I am clearly not even arguing anything remotely close to Jags, why do I have to research them?


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## ihaveherps (Feb 14, 2009)

Cement, even if you were referring to the UK when you typed Europe, your case doesnt stand. Even in the sunny UK, a feral population has established itself, from escapees.... cant be bothered finding the finer details, though I do remember it revolves around a zoo, south of london if memory serves me correctly.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks for the pics. I'm not sure how anyone could think they were butt ugly, etc,etc,etc. Great looking snakes.


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## Squish (Feb 14, 2009)

Wow, um... I love bredlis, they are the smex, and jaguars aren't bad, but I really could not say with any degree of honesty that those snakes are at all attractive. Those are the worst colours I've seen on any snake bar corn snakes...


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## Khagan (Feb 14, 2009)

Squish said:


> Wow, um... I love bredlis, they are the smex, and jaguars aren't bad, but I really could not say with any degree of honesty that those snakes are at all attractive. Those are the worst colours I've seen on any snake bar corn snakes...



I think you are colour blind  the 2nd one is simpley amazing.


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## Squish (Feb 14, 2009)

Khagan said:


> I think you are colour blind  the 2nd one is simpley amazing.


*looks again* No... No, I'm quite sure it's hideous...


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## draqonfly (Feb 14, 2009)

i guess thats why they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> Are we talking Hybrids or designer morphs now?
> And are we starting from the beginning bredings (as I suggested) or with an already established Jaguar?
> 
> BTW Jags have nada to do with my comments, I think you have missed my point completely.
> ...





Jags have nothing to do with your comments??


amazonian said:


> I didn't realize I had to be a Jag breeder to have an opinion on hybrids in general.
> So I take it you have been breeding Jags for years and years yourself then since you seem to have an opinion on the matter also?
> Anyway you havn't argued my point at all. It is still fact that out of several clutches there is only 1-2 1/2 decent looking animals produced.



You are discussing hybrids of 2 pure species?? The Bredli in question (the pic posted) is a jag, hence the jag relevance....


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> And are we starting from the beginning bredings (as I suggested) or with an already established Jaguar?



My 'cut out' was the details of the second season of the original first Jag breeding??


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> I dont give a crap about Jags (as I already stated)
> I am discussing hybrids of 2 pure species ok (as I stated)



The pics are of a JAG (bredli influence). You don't care about them, that's ok. Maybe a "hybrids of two pure species" thread would suit your comments better? I'm sure there is one on this site some where...


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## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

Yes the pic posted is a Bredli Jag.
But where in any of my posts have I mentioned Jags or designer morphs?
All I said was that hybrids (the crossing of different species or subspecies) produces ugly offspring.
And several times now I have used Coastals X Jungles as an example to clarify my intention, but still you point out jags to me?????? Get over the whole Jag thing. I am not talking about Jags here, I am talking about HYBRIDS IN AUS. Rather than start a new thread with 6575645 pages of slinging mud I thought I would express my opinion here even if the criteria does not fit with the pic posted *yawn*. It was still on topic and relevant to the topic.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 14, 2009)

Haha, christ. Obviously we could go back and forth here....
Your point is my point mate. You are talking about crossing two pure species, chatting in relation to the animals posted...?

Relevant to the topic? The topic is a Jag, not pure species crossing... Your post has no relevance here. I understand you are passionate but the horse is dead mate, no need to keep flogging it.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> Yes the pic posted is a Bredli Jag.
> *But where in any of my posts have I mentioned Jags or designer morphs?*
> All I said was that hybrids (the crossing of different species or subspecies) produces ugly offspring.
> And several times now I have used Coastals X Jungles as an example to clarify my intention, but still you point out jags to me?????? Get over the whole Jag thing. I am not talking about Jags here, I am talking about HYBRIDS IN AUS. Rather than start a new thread with 6575645 pages of slinging mud I thought I would express my opinion here even if the criteria does not fit with the pic posted *yawn*. It was still on topic and relevant to the topic.




It doesn't matter that you haven't mentioned them, Jags are what this thread is about. Don't go changing your argument just because people are rebutting you. 

Like i called you out before, show us the pictures of entire clutches of ugly hybrids right up to adult colours. 

The arguments against hybrids are really weak, if you don't like them then don't buy them or produce them. But don't slag people off for owning them and producing them.


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## Squish (Feb 14, 2009)

I think I agree with Den, though I haven't bothered to read your whole argument... (why would I?)

Yes, a lot of hybrids will be dull, but the intention here is to take a well established and popular genetic trait and breed it into bredlis... much the same as people do with poodles/labradoodles/cockapoos/goldendoodles, and any other animals we domesticate. It's a well-established practise in other animals, why not do it with snakes? And it's more likely to come out with better looking snakes if you use the jag morph to create the hybrid than if you throw two common snakes together n see what the hybrid looks like.

I think I'm just a bit of a bredli purist.


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## girdheinz (Feb 14, 2009)

funcouple said:


> im not burying my head in the sand. yes they are here. but they shouldnt be here in at least NSW, it states on your licence condition that its illegal to cross breed sub species together. hence why they shouldnt be here. sorry but NPWS should watch all clasifieds and seize all hybrids that come up for sale. yes this may push these hybrids under-ground, but it will make the sale of these hybrids harder as they wont be readily available.


 

From NSW reptile holdings 2005

X2009
Antaresia childreni X A stimsoni
Children's / Stimson's Python hybrid

2​ 

0​ 

2​ 

0​ 

0​ 

2​ 
X2002
Antaresia childreni X A. maculosus
Children's/Eastern Small-blotched Python hybrid

14​ 

13​ 

9​ 

0​ 

5​ 

17​ 

Also these

X2005
Morelia spilota spilota X M.s. bredli
Diamond / Centralian Carpet Python hybrid
4​2​5​0​1​6​X2010
Morelia spilota spilota X M.s. cheynei
Diamond / Jungle Python hybrid
1​0​1​0​0​1​


http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-herps/nsw-reptile-holdings-2005-a-43796

Gird


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

Squish said:


> I think I agree with Den, though I haven't bothered to read your whole argument... (why would I?)
> 
> *Yes, a lot of hybrids will be dull*, but the intention here is to take a well established and popular genetic trait and breed it into bredlis... much the same as people do with poodles/labradoodles/cockapoos/goldendoodles, and any other animals we domesticate. It's a well-established practise in other animals, why not do it with snakes? And it's more likely to come out with better looking snakes if you use the jag morph to create the hybrid than if you throw two common snakes together n see what the hybrid looks like.
> 
> I think I'm just a bit of a bredli purist.



But people don't seem to get that alot of locality snakes are incredibly dull, i would even call ugly, with out being cross bred. You get fuglies in just about any species and they can pop up at any time.


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## Gabi_79 (Feb 14, 2009)

This is why i only keep olives now lol.

I'm not a hybrid fan by any means but these kinds of snakes a brightly colored and nice to look at, which these days is what people want.
Most people don't really care about the natural history or life cycles of our reptiles, which is fine really because it puts less pressure on our wild stocks through illegal collecting, amoung other things.

These snakes are just like birds a pretty looking thing in a cage, theres nothing wrong with that as long as they are well cared for.

Personally i would never own one or breed one but many people will so theres no point in fighting, why not just respect what others are doing, if you don't like just ignore it.
Hybrids aren't going to affect our wild snakes anymore so than non local species escaping so theres no real harm being done anymore we are past that point, any damage to our hobby that could be done has been.


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## Squish (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> But people don't seem to get that alot of locality snakes are incredibly dull, i would even call ugly, with out being cross bred. You get fuglies in just about any species and they can pop up at any time.


True. Hence the popularity of womas, diamonds, jungles, bredlis... the ones with the flashier norm.

Also why I say hybrid jags are different.


----------



## amazonian (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> It doesn't matter that you haven't mentioned them, Jags are what this thread is about. Don't go changing your argument just because people are rebutting you.
> 
> Like i called you out before, show us the pictures of entire clutches of ugly hybrids right up to adult colours.
> 
> The arguments against hybrids are really weak, if you don't like them then don't buy them or produce them. But don't slag people off for owning them and producing them.


 
Are you serious?
I am not changing any argument, my comments have always been about Hybrids in Aus.
I thought this was clear seen as I mentioned 2 species as an example and even went to the trouble odf stating the amount of animals advertised for sale in Aus as well as posted on APS by unknowingly gullible buyers that assumed they had pures. It's not my fault you foolishly chose to look at a photo posted by another member on page 1 while reading my posts. If you can't differentiate between my words and anothers members photos then more fool you I am afraid. As for calling me out I am pretty sure that I was the 1 that suggested that you show pics of entire good looking clutches if you can & I will produce pics of true ugly hybrid mutt clutches. The offer still stands if you like. Lets see your so called good looking hybrids (not designers, not Jags & not goldfish but true hybrid crosses)

Anyway I am flogging a dead horse here so I am out.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

Squish said:


> True. Hence the popularity of womas, diamonds, jungles, bredlis... the ones with the flashier norm.
> 
> Also why I say hybrid jags are different.



But you still have to realize that within each of those species there are fuglies. There are some genuinely ugly womas, hideous bredli, jungles and BHPs. I'm yet to see an ugly diamond... but i'm sure it will happen lol.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> Are you serious?
> I am not changing any argument, my comments have always been about Hybrids in Aus.
> I thought this was clear seen as I mentioned 2 species as an example and even went to the trouble odf stating the amount of animals advertised for sale in Aus as well as posted on APS by unknowingly gullible buyers that assumed they had pures. It's not my fault you foolishly chose to look at a photo posted by another member on page 1 while reading my posts. If you can't differentiate between my words and anothers members photos then more fool you I am afraid. As for calling me out I am pretty sure that I was the 1 that suggested that you show pics of entire good looking clutches if you can & I will produce pics of true ugly hybrid mutt clutches. The offer still stands if you like. Lets see your so called good looking hybrids (not designers, not Jags & not goldfish but true hybrid crosses)
> 
> Anyway I am flogging a dead horse here so I am out.



You're the one making the claim, you have to back it up. Trust me i am not the one looking the fool.


----------



## Squish (Feb 14, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> But you still have to realize that within each of those species there are fuglies. There are some genuinely ugly womas, hideous bredli, jungles and BHPs. I'm yet to see an ugly diamond... but i'm sure it will happen lol.


I agree completely.


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## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

gold&black... said:


> Different or unique... Say what u may... Those are animals I would love to have in my collection..... Take my word, the whole purist thing will always have the upper hand when it comes to pure bred animals but designer will always b a step above... The reason, we humans love to b different and would never like being compared to the next.....If what u have is what u have, then I want ALWAYS some thing better... If u get a JAG I want a Ferrari...





amazonian said:


> Ever notice with these mongrel mutants that there is only ever a pic of 1 animal from a clutch (and no mention of how many clutches were produced)???
> Thats because the rest of the mutts are pig dog ugly (and should be euthanised) THATS A FACT. What will happen to these ugly offspring? No1 is going to want to buy them & breeders will not want to cull them and lose possible $$$ so will they be advertised as weird looking or ugly pures or what? I know a new line of such and such bred by the infamous so & so lmfao.
> 
> If you cross bred 10 clutches you might have enough offspring that are not tooo fugly to start a breeding trio (if your lucky) lmao.



This is actually what you responded to and prompted me to respond to you. Hmmmm, i know what it looks like to me perhaps talking about jags... Anyway i don't really care, ur not gonna open you're mind and like you said ur a dead horse.


----------



## waruikazi (Feb 14, 2009)

I'm out, this is sinking into personal levels. Grow up you lot :lol:


----------



## R3PT1LE (Feb 14, 2009)

I love the look of some intergrades, But it's not what nature intended...


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## Retic (Feb 14, 2009)

Intergrades are naturally occurring so it is exactly what nature intended.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 14, 2009)

amazonian said:


> It's not my fault you foolishly chose to look at a photo posted by another member on page 1 while reading my posts. If you can't differentiate between my words and anothers members photos then more fool you I am afraid. .



Ummm, you are making your own point mate. How dare someone assume you were talking in reference to the title thread and animal in photo supplied as an example...

I guess you have your mind set on a hybrid debate, that thread was closed a while ago bud... This is a Jag topic, hence the Jag photo...


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## Retic (Feb 14, 2009)

:lol:


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## biggie (Feb 14, 2009)

its a jag coastal x bredli from what i read look in www.precisionreptiles.com


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## ihaveherps (Feb 14, 2009)

Get over it peoples..... Jags are a poor mans morph..... no cutting edge, not difficult to produce.... co-dom morphs are mass produced easier than any others. Mark my words, the price of jags wont just drop, they drive themselves into the ground, one jag male can produce hundreds of jags a year. When jags are a dime a dozen (which they will be) all the jokers who thought that hybridising them was where it was at, will realise the fad had a life-span shorter than ostrich farming. The smuggling, the shaddow games, will all have a pay day, short as it may be... the hoardes that jump on the bandwagon.... suckers is a term that comes to mind. Jags will be run of the mill before they surface, if you dont already have an adult jag, you will have missed the boat. The mutt makers will call jags the grail, spose they will be.... a morph sub-specifically questionable right back to day dot.

Now I know that there will be all those "jags are pure coastals......" . Whatever! How long have we been waiting for Jan Erics tell all article? So its just an article.... tell you what, go to his web site and cut and paste some information for me.... in my opinion, you dont disappear if you dont have anything to hide....

Sure you can buy a pretty, arguably hybrid, obvious progeny of smuggling, if you have the money..... though the thing about integrity is if you really have some, its priceless.


----------



## aspidito (Feb 14, 2009)

Waruikazi, Den,
Well said, some people just just dont get it but offer them a high yellow jungle / Jag & I know they will want it::


----------



## stuartandconnie (Feb 14, 2009)

*magic*

stunning animals


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## ad (Feb 14, 2009)

Great post and so true ,
Cheers
Adam.








ihaveherps said:


> Get over it peoples..... Jags are a poor mans morph..... no cutting edge, not difficult to produce.... co-dom morphs are mass produced easier than any others. Mark my words, the price of jags wont just drop, they drive themselves into the ground, one jag male can produce hundreds of jags a year. When jags are a dime a dozen (which they will be) all the jokers who thought that hybridising them was where it was at, will realise the fad had a life-span shorter than ostrich farming. The smuggling, the shaddow games, will all have a pay day, short as it may be... the hoardes that jump on the bandwagon.... suckers is a term that comes to mind. Jags will be run of the mill before they surface, if you dont already have an adult jag, you will have missed the boat. The mutt makers will call jags the grail, spose they will be.... a morph sub-specifically questionable right back to day dot.
> 
> Now I know that there will be all those "jags are pure coastals......" . Whatever! How long have we been waiting for Jan Erics tell all article? So its just an article.... tell you what, go to his web site and cut and paste some information for me.... in my opinion, you dont disappear if you dont have anything to hide....
> 
> Sure you can buy a pretty, arguably hybrid, obvious progeny of smuggling, if you have the money..... though the thing about integrity is if you really have some, its priceless.


----------



## ad (Feb 14, 2009)

Just in case some of you have forgotten what a hot bredli looks like


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## m_beardie (Feb 14, 2009)

wow thats a gorgeous bredli ad


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## megrim (Feb 14, 2009)

Den said:


> Maybe a "hybrids of two pure species" thread would suit your comments better? I'm sure there is one on this site some where...



:lol::lol::lol: That made my day. 

I'd bet my liver there's one on here somewhere.


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## NickM (Feb 15, 2009)

just to comment on a few of the things said in this thread:

Bredls jags are virtually never red, I have seen many in person and there was not a red scale on any of them. The pics posted at teh start of this thread are either an anomaly or they were photoshopped, I know the site they came from and they have a history of suspicious pics that appear to be color enhanced.

On the issue of jag prices plummeting, its true and has already happened, you can curerently get them for as litttle as a few hundred dollars, people are startng to sell them to wholesalers and this year they will be even less.

The jag crossing fad here is dying quickly, but the damge is done now.

The state of our captive gene pool over here was already bad but now its a catastrophe, there are three and four way crosses being dumped into the pet trade with no background, and no accountability. In just a couple of years they managed to crosses those dam jags to every subspeicies that we have available and even GTPs.

In addtion I never see anyone on this forum talk about the nuerological problems that jags have. The fact is that along with this mutation many jags develope these problems and in some cases it can be severe, animals have tremors and what almost seem like seizures, particularily when they are exited or stressed.

Australian keepers should really think hard before they rush to imitate whats gone on in the USA and Europe.

I see the pro-hybrid peopl on this forum making the same tired excuses for the practice I see poeple make over here. If you want to see what uncontrolled crossing will do to your hobby, just look over here. After nearly 20 years of people doing it over here its now very difficult to even find pure carpet subspecies. There are thousands of carpets prodcued here every year and there is almost no backggroiund information on most of them.

There are still pure lines around but you have to do a good deal of research to find them and pretty much have to assume that the large majority of unknows are tainted.

Is this really the way you want your hobby to go in Australia? and for what, some flashy jag crosses that nobody is going to give a crap about in a few years anyway?

Nick


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 15, 2009)

Excellant posts ihaveherps and Nickm
heres a video showing the neuro problems that jags can get 
[video=youtube;VzD8hohKXps]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzD8hohKXps[/video]


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## Moreliaman (Feb 15, 2009)

Both the morphs & the standard bredli look stunning in their own way, personaly i couldnt give a toss what people think, id be happy to own any of them.


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 15, 2009)

The hypo bredli jag is not too shabby


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## Moreliaman (Feb 15, 2009)

OMG, have you seen the amount of pedigree cats & dogs around ? crossed & line bred over generations.... developing defects that are passed on to future offspring.....like alsation's with hip problems....sharpei's that have skin conditions.....the list is endless......and now they are doing it to morelia....:shock:

Im amazed about the people that are slating this persons choice of snakes (i presume they belong to someone who likes them), but are quite happy to accept compliments given to their own personal preference...god forbid anyone who slates their personal choice of collection eh !!
The level of hypocrisy in this thread is amazing !!


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## Squish (Feb 15, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> OMG, have you seen the amount of pedigree cats & dogs around ? crossed & line bred over generations.... developing defects that are passed on to future offspring.....like alsation's with hip problems....sharpei's that have skin conditions.....the list is endless......and now they are doing it to morelia....:shock:


I'm sure I made this comment about line-breeding once and people shot me down. It's nice to know I'm not the only one looking at the horrible state of our domestic dog breeds and wondering why we're gonna do that to snakes too.
On the other hand, breeding quality snakes with jags could be a way of increasing the gene pool of jags and help counter the side effects that come with it, or at least a way of trying. Not that I support it, I just see why others do it.

But all these bredli hybrids make me sad. I love the colour of bredis, but all the hybrids I've seen of them lose the colour. Like diamond x bredli, from what I've seen, has the diamond colours and the bredli patterns. If you could come up with a hybrid that was bredli colours but diamond patterns, I might be tempted, but basically they're breeding the colour out of bredlis.


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## gravell_rash (Feb 15, 2009)

Wow thats heaps pretty!


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## moreliainsanity (Feb 15, 2009)

NickM said:


> just to comment on a few of the things said in this thread:
> 
> On the issue of jag prices plummeting, its true and has already happened, you can curerently get them for as litttle as a few hundred dollars, people are startng to sell them to wholesalers and this year they will be even less.
> 
> ...


 
Great Post NickM and Ihaveherps, I tend to sit on the fence when debates like this pops out, just read and absorb what people from both sides got to say, fortunately we live in a free country I agree that this JAG thing will be short term fad just look at what's happening with them overseas and take consideration the population over there compare to australia(we are tiny) people who's got them now here in oz are the only ones who will make a buck initially and that's where it will end.

Legality issue and moral issue will be a concern for some who would want to get their hands on JAGS here in australia, and not to forget the neuro problems that comes with some JAGS. I remember a couple of years ago reading on one overseas breeder that invested money for a JAG breeding program, he bred them and end up euthanising the clutch for showing major neuro issue and got out of jags all together, Now no wonder someone out there is marketing them as "HYBRIDS":lol::lol: Sorry but I find that's real funny.
If there's a real big demand for them why not sell them or promote them as JAGS????


Leigh


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## biggie (Feb 15, 2009)

id rather a ugly healthy python than a ****ed up retarded jag or something


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## Bax155 (Feb 15, 2009)

NickM said:


> just to comment on a few of the things said in this thread:
> 
> Bredls jags are virtually never red, I have seen many in person and there was not a red scale on any of them. The pics posted at teh start of this thread are either an anomaly or they were photoshopped, I know the site they came from and they have a history of suspicious pics that appear to be color enhanced.
> 
> ...


 Glad someone from the US has finally commented on this topic, EVERYONE should read Nick Mutton's post and listen to what he is saying, as Nick is more qualified to comment on this topic then any of us Aussie keepers having witnessed the outcomes first hand!!
Nick produces some of the best Bredli I have seen from the US and if you have seen some of his collection of Bredli there is no way you would condone or want to buy one of these mungrel Bredli wanna be pythons, even putting the Bredli in its description is a slur on the Bredli name, ALL crosses should be given completly new name's so as not to confuse or associate with what they originally came from!! Thats my 2 bobs worth anyway 
Cheers
Bax


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## Fester (Feb 15, 2009)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, talk of hybrids, cross-breds, mongrels etc but isn't a "jag" on its own (not cross-bred with pure bloods) just a mutation of the breeding of two pure blood animals??


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 15, 2009)

Jags have been bred to all sub species of carpet pythons and diamond pythons also scrub pythons and green tree pythons ,
Once there were supposedly pure coastal jags, but even from the beginning jags were suspected to be hybrids , 
the current jags getting around are hybrids Fester .


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Feb 15, 2009)

Fester said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, talk of hybrids, cross-breds, mongrels etc but isn't a "jag" on its own (not cross-bred with pure bloods) just a mutation of the breeding of two pure blood animals??



It's supposedly a random mutation from two mcdowelli, but whether they were really mcdowelli or something mislabelled or something entirely different (sucha s irian jaya x mcdowelli) is not known 100% for certain by anyone except the man that bred the first one.


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## Lewy (Feb 15, 2009)

OFSS Give it up already 

Isn't every one just sic to death of this stupid argument!!!! We just got to face the fact that there are people out there who just want to ruin the best looking pythons in the world by crossing them. Sad realy!!!

Lewy


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## Fester (Feb 15, 2009)

I always thought that it was reported that it was Jan Eric Engell that first named the "jag". 
Most have probably read this anyway but interesting none the less, about quarter way down in English:
http://www.jaguarpython.dk/index.php?id=67,0,0,1,0,0


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## draqonfly (Feb 15, 2009)

if its against the rules for me to swear, if its against the rules for me to promote illegal activity, it should also be against the rules to post topics like this as well. because breeding of hybrids is illegal in australia, its against the law as nearly everyone knows by now... if i know, everyone knows. putting hybrid topics like this plays up peoples behaviours, causing stress and also introducing these morphs to those virgins of breeding like meself.

strawberry milkshake dipped in chocolate pudding with sprinkles of msg !!! coconut balls !!!:evil:


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## Retic (Feb 15, 2009)

Yes you are correct. 



Fester said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, talk of hybrids, cross-breds, mongrels etc but isn't a "jag" on its own (not cross-bred with pure bloods) just a mutation of the breeding of two pure blood animals??


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## ryanharvey1993 (Feb 15, 2009)

hybrid or not its still a crapet. looks nice though


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## Fester (Feb 15, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> if its against the rules for me to swear, if its against the rules for me to promote illegal activity, it should also be against the rules to post topics like this as well. because breeding of hybrids is illegal in australia, its against the law as nearly everyone knows by now... if i know, everyone knows. putting hybrid topics like this plays up peoples behaviours, causing stress and also introducing these morphs to those virgins of breeding like meself.
> :evil:


 
The original post to this thread is about "jags"! Who is talking about hybrids???
If you had a pure blood male Bredli and a pure blood female Bredli and one offspring was
something really unusual, would you call that a hybrid or a mongrel??


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## funcouple (Feb 15, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> if its against the rules for me to swear, if its against the rules for me to promote illegal activity, it should also be against the rules to post topics like this as well. because breeding of hybrids is illegal in australia, its against the law as nearly everyone knows by now... if i know, everyone knows. putting hybrid topics like this plays up peoples behaviours, causing stress and also introducing these morphs to those virgins of breeding like meself.
> 
> strawberry milkshake dipped in chocolate pudding with sprinkles of msg !!! coconut balls !!!:evil:


 so true and well said. hope mr slateman reads this and takes note.


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## AUSGECKO (Feb 15, 2009)

Reptilian66 said:


> All you young Reptile Keepers out there, just don't care one bit about the future of our Reptile's, you only think of how much money you can pocket by creating new color morpth or hybrid species and giving them all these new fancy names, just to make others think you have a new subspecies, by cross-breeding our beautiful Carpet-Stimpson-Childreni-Woma-Black-Headed Python's.


 WOW! I read alot of dumb un-educated posts in this thread but this one has to take the cake! :lol::lol::lol: Get off your walking frame old man, pull your head out of your *** and take a sniff of reality!!! :lol::lol::lol:


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 15, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Get over it peoples..... Jags are a poor mans morph..... no cutting edge, not difficult to produce.... co-dom morphs are mass produced easier than any others. Mark my words, the price of jags wont just drop, they drive themselves into the ground, one jag male can produce hundreds of jags a year. When jags are a dime a dozen (which they will be) all the jokers who thought that hybridising them was where it was at, will realise the fad had a life-span shorter than ostrich farming. The smuggling, the shaddow games, will all have a pay day, short as it may be... the hoardes that jump on the bandwagon.... suckers is a term that comes to mind. Jags will be run of the mill before they surface, if you dont already have an adult jag, you will have missed the boat. The mutt makers will call jags the grail, spose they will be.... a morph sub-specifically questionable right back to day dot.
> 
> 
> > Your right mate, producing trick Jags would be no more difficult than selectively breeding already established pure stock. It's all selective breeding. I also agree, the presence of the co-dom gene means the whole process is sped up. I understand why people hate hybrids but I personally put Jags in a different category to those who hybridise for the hell of it. The co-dom gene puts them in a morph category for me. I enjoy reading about other peoples projects, even if they are overseas. Others see them as just mongrels and that's cool too, opinions vary....
> ...


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## draqonfly (Feb 15, 2009)

Fester said:


> The original post to this thread is about "jags"! Who is talking about hybrids???
> If you had a pure blood male Bredli and a pure blood female Bredli and one offspring was
> something really unusual, would you call that a hybrid or a mongrel??



seriously i dont even know whats the meaning of a hybrid, mongrel or whatever... it doesnt matter to me to be honest. because what i see is this.... they're just snakes. i know theyre different species altogether or different whatever, but one thing for sure is... i dont lose sleep over this topic, and im sure many dont, but im also sure some do, because they take this topic to heart in the care of their hobby, or in the care of their beliefs.

my post was pointed at the whole of this thread and past threads.
threads that affected people, that affected some members on here, some off topics on chit chat threads were deleted. why not this? this may be healthy for debates, healthy to open the eyes for the good and bad of this topic... but its making some people upset. i havnt read all the posts in here, because there is too much to read and it doesnt tickle me. 

i dont know much about breeding species of snakes because i got other things to worry about, and if i had the chance to know about things that relates to this topic, i wouldnt want to delve into, because its just a waste of time for me. for others its their passion, so they may take it to heart. thats one of the points why i think threads like this should be deleted always. but its not my call, its up to the moderators. they delete some threads bceause it affects members on this site or even not, but it suprises me why these threads dont get deleted. only they know why... i dont care no more.

thats all i gotta say...

cheers


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## Ramsayi (Feb 15, 2009)

At least with threads like this......New keepers coming into the hobby get an understanding of why so many people are against them and others on the fence might be persuaded to make a stance.If it helps stem the flow of this rubbish then thats a good thing.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 15, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> At least with threads like this......New keepers coming into the hobby get an understanding of why so many people are against them and others on the fence might be persuaded to make a stance.If it helps stem the flow of this rubbish then thats a good thing.




I know what you mean Rams but that's opinion based. People hate them and want others too aswell. The reasons for hating them are opinion based, the reasons for loving them are opinion based. All arguments for the against have positive replies for the person for it and vise versa. Both claim their 'evidence' is fact, both rebut that claim....

The smuggling thing... Against; Any Jag blood in aus is smuggled there for shouldn't be allowed... For; A great percentage of greens are from smuggled stock, they are accepted.

The wild population...Against; What if they get out, Australia will be ruined... For; No different to a none 'native to the area' python escaping.

They are just Hybrids...For: It's a morph, different to 'hybrid for the hell of it' (haha, my quote:lol... Against; Still a morph, illegal in most states.


There will always be people for and against most topics, animal related or not. I usually just watch or keep to myself, there are enough people pushing their opinions on the net. I did get sucked into this one though. Damn, should have just concentrated on my pms.


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## Pythonking (Feb 15, 2009)

Den said:


> should have just concentrated on my pms.


 man my missus has that it's such a pain  sorry bad joke


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## Ramsayi (Feb 15, 2009)

Den said:


> I know what you mean Rams but that's opinion based. People hate them and want others too aswell. The reasons for hating them are opinion based, the reasons for loving them are opinion based. All arguments for the against have positive replies for the person for it and vise versa. Both claim their 'evidence' is fact, both rebut that claim....
> 
> The smuggling thing... Against; Any Jag blood in aus is smuggled there for shouldn't be allowed... For; A great percentage of greens are from smuggled stock, they are accepted.
> 
> ...



The main difference for the purist is that his breeding efforts affect no one down the line.On the other hand the hybrid mob (even if they are open and honest about it) will directly affect anyone looking for pure lines down the track.If each and every breeder decided to cross anything with everything then all we would end up with would be M.s.crap.


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## ravan (Feb 15, 2009)

wow, they're quite gorgeous


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## AUSGECKO (Feb 15, 2009)

Pythonking said:


> man my missus has that it's such a pain  sorry bad joke


 :lol:Lol, So has mine,Im currently hiding under the kitchen table with the laptop!:lol::lol::lol:


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## Australis (Feb 15, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> The main difference for the purist is that his breeding efforts affect no one down the line.On the other hand the hybrid mob (even if they are open and honest about it) will directly affect anyone looking for pure lines down the track.If each and every breeder decided to cross anything with everything then all we would end up with would be M.s.crap.



Spot on.


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## elapid66 (Feb 15, 2009)

nice thread give me a jag over a boring bedli any day :lol:


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## liberty (Feb 15, 2009)

some say ruined i say nice, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 15, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> The main difference for the purist is that his breeding efforts affect no one down the line.On the other hand the hybrid mob (even if they are open and honest about it) will directly affect anyone looking for pure lines down the track.If each and every breeder decided to cross anything with everything then all we would end up with would be M.s.crap.



Lol Rams, that's my point mate. You have an opinion that you are sure will happen, the people 'for' have replied to that same point a heap of times with an opinion that they are sure of...

Pure lines...

Against;The main difference for the purist is that his breeding efforts affect no one down the line.On the other hand the hybrid mob (even if they are open and honest about it) will directly affect anyone looking for pure lines down the track.If each and every breeder decided to cross anything with everything then all we would end up with would be M.s.crap. 

For; Purists will always have pure stock and if the bloodlines become muddy then keepers will replenish. Americans can't because the animals aren't native, right or wrong people have access to any locale animal they desire. As long as there are native reptiles in the wild, new keepers will always have pure animals made available to them..


I guess I'm not helping by having a debate over a debate...lol The only reason I commented was in response to Amazonions assumed 'spark up a debate' post (no offence Ams).


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## ihaveherps (Feb 15, 2009)

Den said:


> Your right mate, producing trick Jags would be no more difficult than selectively breeding already established pure stock. It's all selective breeding. I also agree, the presence of the co-dom gene means the whole process is sped up. I understand why people hate hybrids but I personally put Jags in a different category to those who hybridise for the hell of it. The co-dom gene puts them in a morph category for me. I enjoy reading about other peoples projects, even if they are overseas. Others see them as just mongrels and that's cool too, opinions vary....
> 
> Just sick of reading the same flogged to death quotes from people who hate them. It almost seems that some lurk around the forums just waiting for a Jag to be posted so they can re-spark the hybrid debate. All I’m saying to those people is "I know you are passionate about your opinions, you don't like Jags, that's cool. I heard you the 40th time"....
> 
> Not directed at you either mate, I know you aren't a lurker.



Firstly, no offence taken.... all sweet.

Putting selectively bred pure stock and jags in the same boat is a huge stretch. How can you compare hand picking a pair from within a locale/sub-species to "hopefully" produce a desired outcome, with having a co-dominant gene that will display itself in F1 offspring (in a mendellian ratio of 50% of the offspring) no matter how hap-hazzardly the mate is chosen. To me the scenarios are worlds apart. 

I probably come across as anti Jag, Im not. I am impressed by Jags, if there was no doubt about the purity of the original Jag, and it appeared in local collections without smuggling, I would be on them like a flash. With Jags being pure coastals (lets just play in fantasy land for a minute), they would be an exciting prospect, the crazy diversity within the sub-species would make for unlimited potential in variation. I can completely understand the excitement the hybridisers feel about Jags, I would be stoked too, unfortunately im handicapped by my values.


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## biggie (Feb 15, 2009)

jags are retarded so why breed retarded animals even if they look nice there all retarded so lets line breed for retardness id like to see 1 jag that's not a hybrid please just 1 will do bet no one can because they are NOT PURE yet atleast


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok Biggie, they are all retarded. lol

I'll send you a pm ihaveherps, me posting is coming accross as being directed at a few mates.


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## liberty (Feb 15, 2009)

umm correct me if im wrong but dont most people line breed for a specific trait.
so how can u make the comment lets line breed for retardness that a bit of an unthought about comment when most people line breed ofr colours, and dont say they do it to keep purity lol who would buy a pure beardie most pure ones are not that crash hot looking. it is now days the red ones or yellow or whites that are hot cakes but no one seems to be jumping up and down about those. i realise that there is now mixing in species here but im focousing on the comment about line breeding 

keep an open mind cheers


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## Moreliaman (Feb 16, 2009)

Squish said:


> I'm sure I made this comment about line-breeding once and people shot me down. It's nice to know I'm not the only one looking at the horrible state of our domestic dog breeds and wondering why we're gonna do that to snakes too.
> On the other hand, breeding quality snakes with jags could be a way of increasing the gene pool of jags and help counter the side effects that come with it, or at least a way of trying. Not that I support it, I just see why others do it.
> 
> But all these bredli hybrids make me sad. I love the colour of bredis, but all the hybrids I've seen of them lose the colour. Like diamond x bredli, from what I've seen, has the diamond colours and the bredli patterns. If you could come up with a hybrid that was bredli colours but diamond patterns, I might be tempted, but basically they're breeding the colour out of bredlis.



Sorry squish, i was being slightly sarcastic about people who are unhappy about snakes being crossed, but quite happy to go out and buy a pedigree dog/cat or hybrid bird or fish


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## Squish (Feb 17, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> The main difference for the purist is that his breeding efforts affect no one down the line.On the other hand the hybrid mob (even if they are open and honest about it) will directly affect anyone looking for pure lines down the track.If each and every breeder decided to cross anything with everything then all we would end up with would be M.s.crap.


Dogs have been cross-bred then in-bred then cross-bred so many times over, and we still have distinctive pedigree animals, they aren't all mixed in to each other. It's possible for domestic hybrids to exist alongside purebred animals and still maintain their pedigree.


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## under_dog (Feb 17, 2009)

thats gorgeous! i want one!!!


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## Diamondback (Mar 31, 2009)

They're awesome! I love the high yellow ones.

While I don't agree with cross breeding any old thing, is it really that difficult to maintain pure lines outside of the crosses? A lot of you argue that it is stupid to breed these snakes just because they look good but the majority of keepers that I know (which is a fair few by this point) state aesthetics as a main reason for keeping snakes in particular; a lot of people rarely handle their snakes, some even advise against doing it a lot, therefore making their animals more like fish in an aquarium or birds in a cage. Looks are a big selling point!

Don't get me wrong, I love my bredli hatchie (he's my first), but give me the chance to also get my hands on a nice jag or (to be extreme) a nice Killer Clown Ball and I'd jump at the chance! Haha!

Also, isn't the breeding for looks issue kinda moot? A lot of you jump up and down about breeding these guys for looks but many in the herp community will see a nice feature in a pure bred snake and breed the crap out of it until it breeds true!

There'll always be people that are for and against. Stupid to ague really because, within (and outside of) the law, people will just do what they want anyhow.


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