# Baby Cape Trib jungle



## zobo (Apr 6, 2007)

Hi,
here is a pic of a baby cape trib I picked up recently. I got a few of them but this is the first one to shed (2nd shed). The others are due any day. They are from black and white parents and usually colour up after a 6 months + like most jungles, but it is already showing some good white for only second shed.
will post siblings once shed.
Jas


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## grimbeny (Apr 6, 2007)

Have u got any pics of the parents?


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## Lucas (Apr 6, 2007)

lucky bugger


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## pugsly (Apr 6, 2007)

Gorgeous.

Goin to be a stunner.


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## Retic (Apr 6, 2007)

I have seen photos of the parents and they are very nice indeed. That one should colour up well.


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## zobo (Apr 6, 2007)

Here is one of the parents. As breeders of whites know they never photograph well and change 'whiteness' inbewtween sheds. The breeder is a member here 'Josh' and is a top bloke to deal with.
I have 6 out of this clutch and 1 other unrelated striped one.
jas


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## Snow1369 (Apr 6, 2007)

Very Nice, Parent looks great, how much did they set you bak, if you don't mind me asking.


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## cement (Apr 6, 2007)

yeah, very nice python mate. you should be happy with those hatchies after seeing the parent.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Apr 7, 2007)

zobo said:


> Here is one of the parents. As breeders of whites know they never photograph well and change 'whiteness' inbewtween sheds. The breeder is a member here 'Josh' and is a top bloke to deal with.
> I have 6 out of this clutch and 1 other unrelated striped one.
> jas


 

Hi Jas

Just seen the pic of your hatchling, including mum or dad on this thread...absolutely awesome, even more interesting is that it is related to the Jungles.

Jas, if you or anyone else could provide me as much information as possible on this particular breed, I would really appreciate it....like cost, temperament, max. adult length and can this breed be mixed with a pure black & gold Jungle, not the carpet mix for mating purposes?

You said the breeder is Josh, but I just tried doing a search for him and there are like a hundred or more different Josh's on here...lol.

Thanks Jas...

Wayne


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## liasis (Apr 7, 2007)

where is cape trib and what is trib short for


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## liasis (Apr 7, 2007)

bump


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## junglemad (Apr 7, 2007)

Cape Tribulation in effen queue...far north queensland. Cook loved it there


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## liasis (Apr 7, 2007)

junglemad said:


> Cape Tribulation in effen queue...far north queensland. Cook loved it there


cool thanks


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## zobo (Apr 7, 2007)

user is 'josho' and he posts often. 
Cape tribs are jungles not coastals. They are just a geographical locale of the jungles found up north and some NOT all are cloured white. I'm no expert but viridis could help you with locales etc.
jas

PS as for price lets just say they were part of a deal/trade and an exact figure is hard, but they are not cheap, another pair of their siblings sold for $2k.


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## rexs1 (Apr 7, 2007)

Very nice Jason, keep the pics coming as it gets older.


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## Vincent (Apr 8, 2007)

I bred the parents of that baby. I breed them every year, and they sell for $250 each. That photo of the parent was taken by a mate of mine who bought the pair off me. That is typical of what they turn out like, some are whiter than others. Some have stripes the length of their bodies.


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## SnakePower (Apr 13, 2007)

Hi guys,

I also bought a pair of Cape Trib's from Josh in melbourne. I think that my animals are from the same clutch as the one zobo has posted. I was supplied the same parent pic as the one zobo has shown us. 

So, I am quite suprised to hear that Shane Black bred them (the parents) as I was told that they were purchased from Tim Mensforth from URS. Now a friend has told me that the clutch the parents came from was large about 37-40 eggs. Can jungles clutch that big??? Also shane sells them for $250?? Then they couldn't be Cape Tribulation animals?? No one would sell true B&W jungles for that cheap... right??? 

So, what can I make of this?? and what is the true locality of the animals that zobo and I have?? Are they in fact jungles, or something else?? Someone somewhere is not telling the truth, and I would hate to be someone who grows up some animals to breed them and then sell offspring as something that they are not!!?? Obviously zobo and myself are wanting to grow them up and be able to sell them as true b&w's, but I would hate to be selling them as that only to find out that we are ripping people off and that they are something else entirely.

Anyone that could shed some light on the topic, please feel free to comment! I really would like to know what they really are!


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## Kratos (Apr 13, 2007)

sounds dodgy


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## Hoppa1874 (Apr 13, 2007)

hmm hasnt this goten interesting all of a sudden.. im sorry i cant help either of u out on this.. but i wish jas and snakepower the very best of luck in finding out the real story..
Fingers crossed for u both!!!
Hoppa


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## SnakePower (Apr 13, 2007)

Could someone shed some light on this subject?? Please!! Does anyone personally know Josh, what about people who personally know Shane Black?? That could vouch for either of them?? Then we might be able to find out some more of the truth/facts!!


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## Hetty (Apr 13, 2007)

I have two of hatchlings from Shane (siblings of the snake pictured I think he said) and I can't speak for the male (only got him a couple of weeks ago) but my female gets lighter with every shed. She's a beautiful snake  Couldn't ask for a nicer jungle in my opinion, except maybe one of those Julatten black and whites.. little out of my price range 

They came from a clutch of 35 eggs I think.

Oh, and to give you an indication of the light in the room, those are white sheets, not peach or anything


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## Jungleland (Apr 13, 2007)

Hi SnakePower,

Mate from what I heard shane bought his original pair as CAPE YORKS not TRIBS, then someone saw them and told him they look like tribs. he breeds them every year like what he said and gets up to 40 eggs(now that sounds more like cape york to me, anyone correct me if I'm wrong:| )

If you paid big money for the animals you purchased as an investment for future breeding and the history is a bit cloudy mmmm well it will be hard to market them for future sales considering the price tag attched to them.

As I can see the situation here needs to be sorted out by the seller, he owes you an explanation rather than shaneblack. the guy you got your animals from should reply to all your queries.

Best Of Luck!


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## Hetty (Apr 13, 2007)

Jungleland said:


> Hi SnakePower,
> 
> Mate from what I heard shane bought his original pair as CAPE YORKS not TRIBS, then someone saw them and told him they look like tribs. he breeds them every year like what he said and gets up to 40 eggs(now that sounds more like cape york to me, anyone correct me if I'm wrong:| )



Yup, Cape Yorks not Tribs.


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## zobo (Apr 13, 2007)

Either way, both Shane and Josh stated that a number of the babies from every clutch come out white and from what I can see so far with mine is that they are definatley different to all other jungles I own. I am happy with the colour so far and at the very least if they are yorks or coastals etc then they are still a white animal which is what I was after.


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## krusty (Apr 13, 2007)

o yes very very nice,the adult looks great.


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## Jungleland (Apr 13, 2007)

thenothing said:


> Yup, Cape Yorks not Tribs.


 
Thanks Mate,
Zobo, I'm glad to hear that you are happy, so when you bredd this critters in the future are they going on the market as cape tribs or cape yorks??


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## Hetty (Apr 13, 2007)

The problem I see here Zobo, is that you paid a fair bit more than they're 'worth'. If they are the same line as Shane's you could have gotten a pair for $500.

Edit: that sounded kind of aggressive, not my intention 

Anyway, your hatchling looks a *lot* different from mine, maybe the other parent is a Cape Trib? I don't know... maybe there's that much varition in the clutches..


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## Jungleland (Apr 13, 2007)

thenothing said:


> The problem I see here Zobo, is that you paid a fair bit more than they're 'worth'. If they are the same line as Shane's you could have gotten a pair for $500.


 
Spot on the nothing, also if Zobo is happy that's great but Snakepower was actually asking for answers here. And imagine if shaneblack did not see this post, we would have animals in the market in a few years getting sold as tribs but it's not I am not jumping the gun here as we really have'nt heard from the seller side of the story.


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## Hetty (Apr 13, 2007)

Jungleland said:


> Spot on the nothing, also if Zobo is happy that's great but Snakepower was actually asking for answers here. And imagine if shaneblack did not see this post, we would have animals in the market in a few years getting sold as tribs but it's not I am not jumping the gun here as we really have'nt heard from the seller side of the story.



Indeed. *sits and waits with popcorn and frozen coke* 

No, but in all seriousness, I hope Snakepower hasn't lost out here...


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## zobo (Apr 13, 2007)

I actually 'paid' nothing for them I just traded animals I no longer required for something I wanted, so I think I still came out on top. Parents are only very short and stocky and only laid a small clutch so who really knows.....Shane stated that a few experienced herpers have seen the animals and said they are tribs. I will see how they colour up and go from there. I also have 2 other lines of 'possible tribs' to breed with so will see how they all develop. 
I had ajungle given to me a few months back and without mention of its background I had one of Australias best whitejungle breeders contact me and ask about the animal and it's background as he stated it looks identical to other whites he has seen. I was given this animal as just a normal old jungle so it shows that sometimes you just dont know what your getting,but I buy what I like and dont really care what people label them....if I like it I'll buy it...simple.


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## Hetty (Apr 13, 2007)

Well, I think you did too Zobo 

How 'short' are they?


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## zobo (Apr 13, 2007)

The colour and pattern on them appears consistent with jungles. They definately have a junglehead pattern and we all know how much animals can vary. 
I dont know what I will sell them for if I breed them but if they are white like parents I will sell them as white jungles. 
If people think they are carpets then we may well have a new colour of carpet here and maybe I should breed white into my stripes.......any money if I did that people would bitch saying I was cross breeding 
personally if they are carpets I am a happy camper as that is a new colour morph.....black and white carpets.
hahaha
jas


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## Hetty (Apr 13, 2007)

Zobo, Shane's are cheynei as well. And they look like jungles.


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## zobo (Apr 13, 2007)

If they are cheynei, then they are black and white jungles.......who cares if they are tribs or capes, they are still black and white........which is all I care about. So I guess if cape yorks are classed as cheynei then I would classify these as black and white jungles (cheynei) as they are just a different locale to what originally purchased as.
Not being rude here, but I am going to bed now, I have to work tomorrow
night
jas


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## Hetty (Apr 14, 2007)

I reckon they are black and white jungles too, just not like the Julatten animals. They have a much brighter white to them in the pictures I've seen.

Night


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## Jungleland (Apr 14, 2007)

zobo said:


> If they are cheynei, then they are black and white jungles.......who cares if they are tribs or capes, they are still black and white........which is all I care about. So I guess if cape yorks are classed as cheynei then I would classify these as black and white jungles (cheynei) as they are just a different locale to what originally purchased as.
> Not being rude here, but I am going to bed now, I have to work tomorrow
> night
> jas


 
I don't really think anyone cares but snakepower who is asking questions, You said a few times that you are happy, that's good after all it's your threads title that catch attention here.


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## SnakePower (Apr 14, 2007)

Evening Guys and Girls!

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate the thoughts.
Zobo, I am glad you like them and are happy with them mate, so do I. That doesn't change the fact that they are posssibly not what they were "sold" to us as. And unfortunately I see a big difference between Cape Yorks and Cape Trib's!
Thanks Jungleland for understanding what I am after, a simple explination as what is in fact true, and it really does need to come from the seller. I do find it a little strange that since this thread was started he is not contactable and not on the forum, which he usually spends so much time on. Why Josh why??? I have tried to contact him by pm, email, mobile ph, and house ph!!
I need to push this point as I so far belive I have a good reputation. I only want to build on that for the many years to come! I want to be known as a respected and trusted breeder, not someone who might rip you off. 
Now that is what would happen effectively, if I left this as is, and grew up the animals I aquired and belived to be cape trib's sell them, market them, label them and ultimately price them as Trib's. If they are in fact cape yorks then I would be missleading and ripping people off as they would in fact only be getting cape yorks.
So thanks guys for the imput, but we really need to hear from the breeder/seller to solve this Kunundrum!!!
For tonight, That's all I got.
Cheers,
Zac.


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## SnakePower (Apr 14, 2007)

After taking in all I had read here from this thread, I realised how a possible senario could have taken place... (This is all completely speculation)
Shane Black after breeding these animals for years must have sold some to some pretty big dealers out there. Lets say about 8years ago, he sold one of them a clutch. They belived they looked like they were cabe tribs, so they label and sell them as tribs. Then Josh could have purchased a few of these cape tribs to start his own little breeding projext, beliving them to be cape tribs. The dealer kept a few for him/her self for their own project that they call their cape trib project.Now after quite a number of years josh breeds his and sells them as cape tribs. knowing that by what he was told by the seller. Now the tribe projects were both in action and the price for them has gone crazy. So they could have come from Shane Black (breeder) sold them to a dealer, who has in turn sold a pair to Josh as Tribs. Therefore they could all possibly be from the same original animals and just be a few groups who had them So the majority of what's around could all in fact be entirely Trib animals from the same gene pool!
Not sure if that makes sense, very tierd, so please understand my confusing post!
Nigh!
Zac.


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## rockman (Apr 14, 2007)

You will soon realize what they are when they start growing , Trib's / Julateen's 4-5 feet , Cape Yorks 8 - 10 feet , wee bit of difference eh ? 
It looks the part , i've seen cape york's look like that and i've seen julateen's look like that . 

Look at it this way , you have the best of both worlds . LOL 
This is the problem with the herp's , no-one really's know's what has been breed into their snakes to make them look the part .
Good luck , nice black / white carpet anyway . 
Cheers

Not being rude , but , didn't some-one her have some " bare-back cape yorks " for sale , not that long ago ? Looked very similar eh ? Maybe they where jungles ! . LOL


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## Vincent (Apr 14, 2007)

I've just been reading all these posts. I'll try and clear it up a bit. I was given a pair of baby snakes off a mate in Qld years ago. He had them given to him off a mate a month or two before. I was told they were Cape York carpets. They were sold to me under Cheynei paperwork. I didnt think much of them, and nearly sold them a couple of times. Then they started breeding. Yes, this pair produces big clutch's. Her first one was the smallest. That was 27. She now averages 35. Since i've been selling them, i've had a number of people reckon their Cape Tribs. Some people have called them black & whites. I know about half a dozen blokes who have Cape Yorks, and none of them look like mine. I'm not saying their Cape Tribs,or black & white jungles. Yes i have sold them to other breeders who have then sold them on, usually as Cape Yorks, and usually twice the price. I have never sold any directly to URS. The reason i sell them cheap (or what other peoplr think is cheap) is because my interest is elapids. I sell them at that price so i dont have to freight them all over the joint and their usually all sold before they hatch. Now all i know regarding the original thread is that the photo of the adult is my animal. I held a pair back one year and then sold them on to a good friend who has since sold them to someone else. My mate took that photo and gave it to me. Some turn out almost completly black & white/beige/cream, whatever you want to call it. And some turn out more average. But whenever i have personally sold them, i have sold them as Cape Yorks because that was what i was originally told. Even though a lot of people have disputed this.


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## Vincent (Apr 14, 2007)

One last thing, about the Cheynei bit. Out of those half a dozen blokes i know with Cape Yorks, half of them are under Cheynei and the other half are under coastal paperwork. A lot of people say Cape Yorks are coastals and a lot say their jungles. Me personally, i dont give a rats *@#! what they are. All i know is the ones i was given were sold/classed as Cheynei. I'll leave it to the python freaks to debate over that one. I'll stick to the Elapids.


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## Vincent (Apr 14, 2007)

I just saw Rockman's post regarding size. My adults are about 6 and a half foot long. But they are a lot more solidly built than most types of carpets. They are getting on now so i dont expect them to get much bigger.


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## andyh (Apr 14, 2007)

I dont care what they are, I like em and I want one!!!!!!


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## bigguy (Apr 14, 2007)

Cape Yorks are definately not Jungles, nor do they appear to be Coastals. Most long term python keepers actually believe they are a seperate sub species and need to be looked at more closely.

I have seen Shanes adults, and have 2 of his hatchlings, and they ARE NOT Black & White jungles such as Tremain is now breeding. They are something else.

Tremain will tell you Cape Yorks appear to be found along the western side of the Athertons from around The Lynnd turnoff to the top of Cape York. They do appear to grow larger than Jungles, with an average size of 2 metres. They are a heavy bodied species and have huge clutches compared to jungles.

As they are definately not Jungles, I do not have them on my books as cheynei, but as McDowelli till they are maybe someday reclassified.

Cape Yorks normally sell from $150 to as much as $500, whereas Black& White Jungles, well name your price as the are rarely bred.


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## zulu (Apr 14, 2007)

*re Baby*

Heres an old pic of one bigguys when it was little,nice snake,very distinctive,good whatever they are.


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## rockman (Apr 14, 2007)

ShaneBlack said:


> One last thing, about the Cheynei bit. Out of those half a dozen blokes i know with Cape Yorks, half of them are under Cheynei and the other half are under coastal paperwork. A lot of people say Cape Yorks are coastals and a lot say their jungles. Me personally, i dont give a rats *@#! what they are. All i know is the ones i was given were sold/classed as Cheynei. I'll leave it to the python freaks to debate over that one. I'll stick to the Elapids.



Regardless of what they are , they are stunning .


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## Jungleland (Apr 14, 2007)

rockman said:


> Regardless of what they are , they are stunning .


 
Very True Jim Let's just call it VERY nice B&W carpets


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## rockman (Apr 14, 2007)

Whats this then ?


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## URS (Apr 14, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I also bought a pair of Cape Trib's from Josh in melbourne. I think that my animals are from the same clutch as the one zobo has posted. I was supplied the same parent pic as the one zobo has shown us.
> 
> ...



I would all so like Josh to contact me to clarify this because I have heard a number of times now that I as meant to have sold him some?

Regards Tim from URS


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## TrueBlue (Apr 14, 2007)

im with bigguy here, i dont class cape yorks as jugles.
The only animals i class as true b/w jungles are the julateen from.
Ive yet to see a cape trib that comes close to a good jutateen, but in saying that most julateens are fairly average as well.
indicus has some of the best around.


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## SnakePower (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi again
Rockman, yes there was some bareback cape yorks recently, they were mine. I didn't have any of them for sale though, except the ones in the clutch that were banded rather than striped. The barebacks were posted purely to share the animals with you guys, not to sell any. Still, my barebacks were different to these animals and are definately from a different linage. I appreciate that you think they are gorgous animals, so do I, but that still doesn't solve the problem at hand.
Jungleland, Yeah I think that we will call them quality B&W's, but I still want to know if they are in fact Trib's, or actually cape yorks.
Tim, Thanks for clarifying that they have not come from you, at least that puts a firm hole in to Josh's credibility! As he specifically told me that he got them from you a number of years ago!!
I'm of the opinion that they are Cheynei, whether they are Tribs or Yorks, But I would really like to hear from Josh about this matter, as if they are not true tribs, then they are not what I got them as, whether I like them, stunning or not!
If they are in fact cape yorks then not only does Josh have some explaining to do, but he also I believe owes me at least part of what I traded for these animals back. I didn't pay cash for them, but I certainly paid well for them as I traded some very high quality breeding animals for them. 
Hopefully we will get to hear Josh's side of the story in the not too distant future and get this matter sorted out! Unfortunately for that to happen, he need to show his face!!
Thanks all for the input, hopefully we will get to the truth soon enough!
Cheers,
Zac.


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## The Devil (Apr 14, 2007)

Just to confuse things a bit more, I found the following post from Josh.

17/12/2006, 11:56 AM 
speedy




vbmenu_register("postmenu_695175", true); 
Yearling
*Seller*
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 146 


ill take some more today the parents where actually black and golds and they through a few of these but i havent bred B&W with B&W until this season. dont know exact the true locality but the dad came from roy pails and the mum was kruss


​


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## rockman (Apr 14, 2007)

SnakePower , i didn't quite know if they where for sale , i just knew that i had seen them on here and being called bare-back . 
Very nice animals , as i said .
Sad when you don't quiet know what they are ? 
Hopefully you will get it sorted . 
Cheers , Jim


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## whatsup (Apr 14, 2007)

bigguy said:


> Cape Yorks are definately not Jungles, nor do they appear to be Coastals. Most long term python keepers actually believe they are a seperate sub species and need to be looked at more closely.



i reckon the cape yorks head shape is different.it seems to be narrower and longer.you get some awesome looking critters with the capeys.


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## Auzlizardking (Apr 14, 2007)

Bump


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## Jungleland (Apr 14, 2007)

URS said:


> I would all so like Josh to contact me to clarify this because I have heard a number of times now that I as meant to have sold him some?
> 
> Regards Tim from URS


 
Sounds familiar Tim, he was telling my mate (not realising it was my mate)that he bought some animals of me for big money and never got the quality he wanted  well the news is that I've never sold any of my animals to this guy before so really don't know what he's talking about, looks like he's got more explaining to do.

Joel


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## The Devil (Apr 14, 2007)

This is getting interesting, it would appear that the parents came from, URS, Joel, Shane, Peter Krauss and Roy Pails. 
Maybe just maybe this is more than one pair of adults, as if they are the same adults they would have to be bloody big snakes to stretch from South Oz to Nth Qld. 

The ones from Peter K and Roy were black and gold, and yet they threw not 1 but 2 black and white babies. Well albino's hatch about every 30K clutches so I guess anything is possible.


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## SnakePower (Apr 14, 2007)

The plot thickens...

I have now been contacted by Josh via text message. This is straight from the text and not direct conversation. 

He says that some people have rang him saying he did the dodgy on me. He has said that if I want, he will send my animals back and we can swap back. He says he is more than happy to do that!! 

I still have been unable to directly chat with him. I just want to know what the storey is!! If they are Tribs or not, and why did he tell me that he bought them from Tim, when he didn't. 

There is still a lot of un-answered questions here. At least now, it looks as though we might be on the road to some answers. 

As I said to him in my reply text... I want to know what the storey is. If they are truely Tribs, then I am happy to keep them, but if they are infact something else, like Cape Yorks, then yes, I feel as though we should trade back or at least get part back as compensation.

S.P.


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## SnakePower (Apr 14, 2007)

Hi Devil,
I don't think these are the same snakes as the B&G ones from Krauss and Pails. They were not one or two from a clutch, but a whole clutch of b&w's. Otherwise, it would be impossible for zobo and I to actually have several clutch mates. There is already 4 plus animals from the clutch that we are talking about here!!
So it is really a question of are they tribs or other line b&w animals such as Shane Black's line of C.Yorks. If they are Tribs, where did they come from, who bred them or who were they purchased from?? This is what we need to find out, to establish the genuinity of these critters.


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## zobo (Apr 14, 2007)

I have seen three of Treemains yearling whites in the flesh and pics of the same animals. From what I have been told they only look really white for a few weeks after a shed and the other 70-80% of the time they appear 'greyish' or almost like murray-darling in colour. I still want some but they are not pure white all of the time and the yearlings looked good, but the white on some of these is almost the same considering the young age. 
I was told the parents are over 5 years old and only about 5 ft long and very stocky. 
jas


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## The Devil (Apr 14, 2007)

Hey SnakePower
I'm still a touch confused, are you saying that he got a whole clutch of B & W's from either Peter K or Roy. 

Earlier this year my son brought a trio of B & W jungles from Josh, they looked a hell of a lot different in the flesh than the pics supplied.
I sold them for him as Athertons, which according to a couple of guys who keep both types of B&W's they were. 
As Athertons they looked pretty good.


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## ad (Apr 15, 2007)

SnakePower said:


> If they are truely Tribs, then I am happy to keep them, but if they are infact something else, like Cape Yorks, then yes, I feel as though we should trade back or at least get part back as compensation.
> 
> S.P.




I doubt there would ever be reassurances capable of this little black duck believing you have Cape Trib Jungles. The horse has bolted, as far as Josho's credibilty goes.
It casts a cloud over the whole "Cape Trib" locality animals forever imo.
Demand your money back.


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## URS (Apr 15, 2007)

Jungleland said:


> Sounds familiar Tim, he was telling my mate (not realising it was my mate)that he bought some animals of me for big money and never got the quality he wanted  well the news is that I've never sold any of my animals to this guy before so really don't know what he's talking about, looks like he's got more explaining to do.
> 
> Joel



G day Joel,

Well have just come down to work to see if I had any phone messages or emails from Josh. Guess what I dont!, but gee the amount of emails and phone messages from people that are says that he said he purchased them from us here at URS are amazing. Looks like josh has conded a lot of people stating that they came from URS when they did not.

Just for the record this is the first years just pasted that we here at URS have bred the B&W Jalatteen's, we have not bred them any other time but will be breeding them agian this season if all goes to plan.

Rehgards Tim from URS
www.ultimatereptiles.com.au


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## Toad (Apr 15, 2007)

I too have purchased some of the hatchies from Josh.

Yes, they were sold to me as B&W Jalatteen's not Cape Trib or Cape Yorks. The parents were purchased from URS quite a few years back and that the pair are about 7-8 years old now and first time they have bred for him was last season. We have now had this all cleared up that they werent purchased from URS. (thats one question down)

I too would like to know what they are????? This is probably one of the most important question for all who have purchased...........

I also have been trying to contact Josh with no luck. I believe his wife is due to give birth at anytime but have been told this for the past 6-8 weeks. I think he runs a fencing business in Melb????

Josh, 'JOSHO' or 'chondro' when you read this contact all concern and fix this. I have emailed you, rang you and PM'd you with out any reply. I will be in Melb early next month and will catch up with you and sort this out financially and find out what they are.

Question - were all animals sold in his wife's name, Kylie??? Or purchased in her name???


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## Retic (Apr 15, 2007)

Zobo, as you know pure Cape Tribs are out there but I guess you just have to be careful where you buy them and be absolutely sure what you are getting. Having seen yours in the flesh they are beautiful looking animals regardless of what they are.


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## Jungleland (Apr 15, 2007)

ad said:


> I doubt there would ever be reassurances capable of this little black duck believing you have Cape Trib Jungles. The horse has bolted, as far as Josho's credibilty goes.
> It casts a cloud over the whole "Cape Trib" locality animals forever imo.
> Demand your money back.


 
Yep I'm with you Adam, I'm sure there is alot more out there that got sold as such, I will be very carefull if i'm on the market for some. a couple of friends that work for venom supplies were also offered some by josh but smelt something fishy and backed out of the deal.

As for his credibility, well after reading this thread sounds like he goes by the name of " Josho, Speedy and Chondro???? obviously did not have a good intention on this hobby on the first place to have too many aliases.:x


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## Retic (Apr 15, 2007)

Yes I agree Joel it does muddy the water a bit, I'm glad I didn't get any now but it does sound like they are all coming out of the woodwork so it should be possible to sort it out. It obviously wont affect other lines but Josh has certainly muddied his name beyond repair I would imagine.


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## zobo (Apr 15, 2007)

OK OK OK, I have been in contact with Josh and here are some answers to clear up some things.
He never told me they came from URS but from simiar lines to the parents of URS stock. They are only very short and stocky at about 5ft and 8 yrs.
He has not been contactable as his wife is pregnant and due any day, he is moving house and has no ph or email at present.
I think people tend to jump in too quick and honestly all this 'chat' with no input from the breeder has possibly muddied his name for a simple misunderstanding. Dont be so quick to judge people or it could happen to you!
Anyway the whole reason this **** started was he sent me an incorrect pic of an animal after I had already bought the juvies. He sent a list of pics of the male and amongst them was an incorrect pic of an animal I thought was a parent. (the one I posted, that BLACK bred),so all this crap is for nothing, his line and parents are whiter than the pic I posted,but he can't reply until he is back online so how about giving him a break and some time to actually reply before you all decide to lynch him. 
I have dealt with him a few times and he is an honest, genuine bloke, so let up a bit. 
I know it is possible to email a wrong pic when I have hundreds saved on my computer as I have done it to mates before,so all this could be from a stupid simple mistake.
Just give it a bit of rest for a while and when he is online he can explain what happened.
jas
His line is different from BLACKS and according to Josh he does not even know BLACK.


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## Toad (Apr 15, 2007)

I have heard from Josh via Text and they have had the baby two days ago and he is in the process of also moving. Reason why he hasnt been on line.

He has also text me that 'they came from URS but he didnt get them direct he purchased them from a guy 8 years ago who had purchased them for URS'.

Yes Zobo lets wait to hear from Josh with all the correct info.


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## Jungleland (Apr 15, 2007)

Hi ZOBO

No offense but you have to read the thread over again, not jumping at all to judge some persons credebility but I gather you are not the only "ONE" in this. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong here please.

Joel


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## Toad (Apr 15, 2007)

You are correct Joel.


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## zobo (Apr 15, 2007)

Joel,
not sure what you mean by that comment?? I know other people are involved, but overall the people I have spoken too all say the babies are very white and they are happy with them but just want to know their true name....fair enough, but to me the old ' a rose would smell as sweet if it were not called a rose' saying rings through to me as I dont care what they are called they are beautiful white coloured animals....
If it makes people happy call em what you want, I'll be selling them as black and white jungles, the same as someone selling black and yellow or black and gold jungles as not many people really know the true locale of their jungles anyway.


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## zobo (Apr 15, 2007)

PS; they are a different line, Josh claims he has never dealt with BLACK! Josh's line is cape tribs as far as anyone knows.


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## Hetty (Apr 15, 2007)

boa said:


> I have seen photos of the parents and they are very nice indeed. That one should colour up well.



Boa, when you saw the parents was one of them the same as the one posted at the start of the thread? 

It'd 'clear things up', so to speak, if it wasn't.


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## SnakePower (Apr 15, 2007)

I have also heard the same from Josh, ie, mrs in hospital, just had baby, in the middle of a move etc. He also said to me that he hasn't dealt with S. Black. This has all been by text, no direct conversation. So yes, he has been unable to get on line to comment, but still he has not answered my quiry. even with offering to call him at`his convienience! He could put some simple answers on text if that is all he has access to! Why is he avoiding this??

I don't doubt the white in the animals, and so as far as I am concerned they are still b&w jungles! But... As far as I am concerned there is still pleanty of contraversy around these animals. 

Josh did say to me that he aquired the animals from "Tim" from URS about 8 yrs ago. Now he says he got them from a guy 8 yrs ago! but from the same line as Tim's??!!
Also, the picture from back in the thread of the "parent" was one of the two parent pics that Josh supplied me, before I got the animals.

It will be interesting to see what Josh has to say, when he is able to get on line again, but to me there just seems to be too many holes in his side of the storey, so far at least! 
I am quite keen to actually be able to talk to him about this matter, whether it be on the phone, or in detail, here on the forum. Lets hear some truth Josh!! The problem now is weather or not to believe what he says as the storey seems to be different with a few different people that have dealt with him, and who have some of the animals in question.


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## SnakePower (Apr 15, 2007)

OK, I have recieved another text form Josh.

Now, he has said he's been trying to sort out all this crap. He said he has realised that somehow he sent a few people the wrong pic, that it was an accident and that they must have been in the wrong file. He said he's not even sure how he got the pic that was posted as one of the parents! He says he will send me the proper pics once he has his computer back up again!!

Also, now apparently one of the animals I traded him is the wrong sex (i hadn't sexed it, just gone on what I was told when I purchased it as a hatchling), and he said it was acting funny he has had it for at least a month now, maybe more. Apparently he took it to the vet and it has a brain tumor!! I thought that could only be determined by tissue sample!?? I could be wrong, but it was one of my most beauitful snakes and was perfectly healthy when it left my hands.

Funny how these things have just come up, now that he has come under so much scrutiny!! Maybe trying to turn things around a little??


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## whatsup (Apr 15, 2007)

zobo
your first photo in this thread is a cape york.if people are going to sell them as b&w's i will sell mine straight away and make a good dollar  .capey's are awesome looking critters but are'nt b&w jungles.


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## SnakePower (Apr 15, 2007)

Hi All!

Well it looks like we may finally be getting down to the truth. I have just got off the phone from 
speaking with Josh and he has cleared the air to a degree, so now I at least feel a little better.

He has said that he wll organise some pics of the parents when he gets back on line. Josh says he got them from a neibour as Cape Tribs about 8 yrs ago, and that the person he got them from had originally got them from URS. He can only tell us what he has been told, and that is true I am sure with a lot of us with our animals, we can only go on what we are told from the person we get them from. So as far as he knows they are definately Tribs. The parents are between 4.5 and 5 ft long consistant with jungles, fairly stocky in build. He mentioned that Toad will be coming to see them in the flesh soon, and that he can take pics and post them to set people at ease.

He has said that he always trys to be honest when selling his animals and that he wouldn't purposely mislead people! The picture that started all this mess, was sent to him by his brother, and is not one of the parents. He has never dealt with Shane Black. He also has said that anyone that has bought some of these animals from him, is welcome to return them for their money or trade back. Doesn't sound like someone who is doing the wrong thing. He has been out of touch as has been mentioned previously, due to a house move and his partner having a baby in hospital.

Just for the record, he also had bred Cape Yorks last season, but they are nothing like the animals that have been in question!

So, hopefully we are at some answers, and can rest assured that we have not been taken for a ride! Sorry Josh for the hard time mate! Hopefullly now this matter can be put to rest!!

I will post the pics of the parents when I get them, so people can see what they truely look like!
Until then... (at least in this thread)
Cheers,
Zac.


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## Toad (Apr 15, 2007)

And yes the person that Josh say's he has purchased them from 8 years ago is Russel Carnt. 

Does the name Russel Carnt ring any bells for anyone???


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## whatsup (Apr 15, 2007)

yes.russell grant breeds capeys


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## Toad (Apr 15, 2007)

Cape what, Trib or York?


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## whatsup (Apr 15, 2007)

cape york


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## The Devil (Apr 15, 2007)

This pic is one that Josh sent my son when he was buying the B & W's.
The ones that turned up were nothing like the pic supplied and interestingly Josh told him that he had brought them from a guy called Jason who worked at Melbourne Zoo. My son got his trio in January as yearlings, nothing was said about Josh having other babies.

My son sold his as Athertons and got out of it OK.


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## Toad (Apr 15, 2007)

Josh is now saying that he doesnt remember Russel's last name and its not Russel Grant.

To many if's and but's...............

Josh just login instead of viewing unknown and watching and fix it all up for everyone.


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## Tristis (Apr 15, 2007)

none of the hatchling that were posted look like Black and whites


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## whatsup (Apr 15, 2007)

here is a cape york bred by russel grant


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## Toad (Apr 15, 2007)

Im over it and we arent getting anywhere and we never will.

once bitten twice shy.


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## Vincent (Apr 15, 2007)

Just got on the computer now for the first time since Friday morning and read a few interesting posts. It's all making sense to me now.I now know how josh got that photo. I sold Josh a pair of Womas recently. Strange he doesnt remember that. I just realised who he was when i read that post with his wifes name. All the export details had his wifes details,but it was him i dealt with. During our conversations i mentioned i had a pair of baby Cape YORKS i was thinking of parting with. I sent him that photo as he wanted to see what they were like. I decided not to sell them and that was the last of it. He actually posted some pics of the Womas i sold him on here recently.


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## SnakePower (Apr 15, 2007)

Damn!!! I don't know if there will be any rest for this problem. At least until we actually see some different pics taken by someone else of the supposed parents! Funny how it just keeps on changing. First this, then that! Can we get a straight answer?? Which person are they from this time?? I think we need some first hand proof somehow!! Otherwise, I am sure this will not rest until we (the group of purchasers) have got some good explinations, and some kind of fair compensation. Best in the form of cash. I would like to hear what you other guys say about this. What would be a fair and reasonable settlement for this maybe in a per hatchie figure??


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## Vincent (Apr 15, 2007)

I can understand him making an honest mistake and accidentally sending my photo to someone. But it's very strange he says he's never heard of me,especially after buying a pair of Womas and speaking to me on the phone at least half a dozen times, and half of those times regarding my Cape Yorks. He seemed like a nice bloke.


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## Toad (Apr 16, 2007)

I have asked for a* refund* either *full* or part, *prefer full.* I have had text back ' you cant ask for a refund and I wont be giving one' & ' Mate if you can prove they are just carpets ill be more than happy work something out with ya'. Any one help with this one, Who in the herp world can really answer this question? (other than Josh)

I dont want to be in this position in 3-5 years time when they breed and try and explain what they are and what price to sell them for. It shouldnt be this difficult. Im sure we all dont want to be in this position that Josh has put himself in.

I have had other text that state ' Mate next time your down (Melb) your more than welcome to come see the parents' This I will do if Josh will give me the correct address and answer his phone. Josh has been viewing the site (but not logging in) to check what has been said. I was posting my replies last night and then receiving a text from him about what I had just posted within seconds!

All I want to know is who he got them from (correct name) and *what they really are*?

When all is said and done after the post has finished it is going to make it very hard to sell B&W's unless you are getting them from very well know source like Tremain, Tim and even then when you go too sell them you will have some explaining to do on who, what, when, how. People will want to know the in's/out's of a ducks bum and really we shouldnt need to.

I cut back on my bird collection due to issues/people like this and moved into reptiles. I was sucked in with the birds on a deal (supposed to be split (het) to new colour mutations) I took it to court (small claims) and won because I was honest and told the truth. I will have no hesitation doing it again if required. 
Josh you are they only one at present that can put an end to this all either by telling the truth & or refunds.
Waiting to hear from you..........


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## turtle (Apr 16, 2007)

I think in the end it all comes down to doing your research. Truth is no one can be really sure of what their purchasing but if the buyer has not done thier research then what can i say.. ..Now thats a fact!


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 16, 2007)

turtle said:


> I think in the end it all comes down to doing your research. Truth is no one can be really sure of what their purchasing but if the buyer has not done thier research then what can i say.. ..Now thats a fact!


I agree, at the end of the day as long as the seller is honest about what they are selling, all's sweet.
PPl like this particular variety, they will sell regardless, be honest and don't BS, so we can keep this hobby/business like we all hope it will be!
I know a little euphoric, but hey i'm in a good mood today!


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## Toad (Apr 16, 2007)

Have been in contact with Josh tonight on the phone. 
I confirmed with Josh that i will be in Melb the last weekend of this month to sort this all out and Josh has confirmed that it is OK to catch and view the parents and take a few pics. And also some pics of the parents of the Hypo Bredli's I purchased as well.

I will keep you all inform of what i see with pics offcourse.


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## moosenoose (Apr 16, 2007)

opps......I've had to re-read the thread..I thought it was only 3 pages long and all seemed to be going nicely until after I posted..then realized it was in fact 7 pages long with some battle going on :lol: Very beautiful snakes..I'd be very interested should there be anymore for sale.


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## sxc_celly (Apr 16, 2007)

Ive been following this the whole way through. It shouldnt be this hard. I cant wait to see the pics of the parents, both "B&W jungles" and "hypo Bredlis".  Good Luck!


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## Deb64 (May 2, 2007)

Hey Toad,
This has been very interesting reading... How did your visit go with Josh and did you get some great pics to share with us of his adults? I would love to see them.. they sound like awesome animals..


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## The Devil (May 2, 2007)

Hey Deb64
I hear that Toad didn't get to see Josh or any of the snakes, actually I'm told that Josh has accused Toad of STEALING his collection.


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## Tristis (May 2, 2007)

sounds like josh should grow up


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## SnakePower (May 2, 2007)

Bloody unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's all I can say!  What's next??

Just for the record I also got a pair of hypo bredli from josh, and was told the female was in shed when I got her and that's why she was dark. Well she has finally shed and I am sad to say, she appears to be a standard bredli, not hypo at all! I don't think she is even the snake I chose from the pics I was sent. Looks close, but I spent a while comparing her to the pic last night and I am fairly positive that she is a different snake! The male is definately hypo, but the female is not. 

Yet another lie/scam from the famous elusive Josho!!


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## Toad (May 2, 2007)

G'day All,

Sorry it has taken this long to get back on line, been busy with Budgets.

I had tried to meet up with Josh on Sat, Sun and even monday night but you guessed it ........ it never happened.
I never got to see the snakes and got stuffed around and then accused of stealing his snakes. It's strange that the only snakes that didnt get stolen were the ones that I wanted to See!!!!!!!!! and even then I still didnt get to see them........

It doesnt surprise me and i was expecting too not see them but would have loved too. Based on all the crap and rubbish stories that had been earlier posted on this thread what else can you expect.

I have read the Stolen Herp thread and it just adds fire to my belly with this bloke. If my reptiles had been stolen and I though I knew who it was I would be going out of my way to catch up with them and ask the question....... I think we all would?????

Next step for me is small claims court, only problem is who does it go too???? Josh Racz or Kylie Westhrope??????

Sorry to all that I couldnt get any pics but I tried my very best to arrange to meet Josh. Looks like we all may have been taken for a ride.

Toad.


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## viridis (May 2, 2007)

You pay for what you get guys! Quality animals equals big dollars. The animals pictured through out this thread are poor examples of what they are ''supposed'' to be.

Half the people in this thread have NO idea about localities of Jungles. There are very few people that have TRUE Julatten black and white jungles, Less then a dozen herpers have colonies going. 90% of ''Cape Tribs" are not black and whites, they turn into drab black and grey animals as adults.

Have a look at Indicus animals in an old thread, they are a good example of what a quality black and white jungles should look like. Not one of the jungles posted are anywhere near that quality. They are worth a lot more then the animals that pretty much everyone else that has been selling this season.

I have tried not to post in this thread as I dont want to get tied up in this rubbish, but it frustrates me to see in experienced know - it - alls flogging animals for things that they are not.

I read somewhere in this thread that someone will continue to sell them as black and whites if they breed them........... Whats the hobbie coming to? 

Gone are the days when herpers actually had some idea of the REAL localities of their animals. Its these idiots that are turning many good herpers away from giving advice out on the forums, and some even out of breeding as they can not deal with the morons over taking the hobbie.

Being in experienced is one thing......everyone has to learn somewhere , but instant experts, should have a long hard think about the rubbish advice that they are giving out.

I feel sorry for everyone that gets sucked in by scams like this, i quess you learn from your mistakes.

To everyone dealing out crap advice do yourself ( and other newbies) a favour and do some research on the animals your giving advice on , and aussie herpers may have some hope of keeping localities pure.

Nick


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## rockman (May 2, 2007)

Viris , tell us how you really feel !!! . LOL


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## ad (May 2, 2007)

Go Nick! lol

the great 'josho' scam of '07 will go down in herping history, forever tarnishing the cape trib line animals with a question mark?
It will be interesting to hear how some explain their lineages in years to come,
Cheers
Adam


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## rockman (May 3, 2007)

Hey Sweetheart , where we having a bad night ? 
Sad thing is , everything you said is true .


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