# Feeding Snakes drumsticks, chicken necks, etc



## Sdaji (Sep 1, 2008)

This topic comes up a fair bit and it's a pretty typical case of everyone having a firm belief without any empirical evidence, so I'm doing some preliminary trials.

For those unfamiliar with the debate, most people assume that snakes which naturally eat whole animals need to do so in captivity in order to be healthy. The reasoning is that they need all the goodies in the organs, with muscle, bone, fat, skin and fur not being enough on their own. People sometimes use chicken wings or necks as supplementary feeds to save money or to fill in when rodents are out of supply, and many people believe this is unhealthy.

If anyone has already done any experimenting, please get in touch to prevent me from reinventing the wheel! I have snakes currently gobbling down tails, legs, meat, etc and in a year or so I should have some worthwhile data (or sooner if things turn sour!).

Please note that feeding a snake half a dozen 'meat and bone' meals doesn't prove anything at all. Doing it for a year or so means something, and having a snake grow from baby to adult exclusively on meat and bone is what we need to try.

Cheers 

Sdaji


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## pythons73 (Sep 1, 2008)

That will defianately be interesting to no,good luck with what you find out.


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## mckellar007 (Sep 1, 2008)

what type of snakes are you using? 
will be interesting to see how it turns out.


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## MrMertens (Sep 1, 2008)

Good luck! Better you than me but it would be very interesting to see how things pan out in a year?

Are you using more than one species?


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## Sdaji (Sep 1, 2008)

I'm using Death Adders for the pilot experiment. Without preliminary results it didn't seem worth using a large number of animals/species. If they go well I'll probably try it with Children's Pythons and maybe a Water Python, and I'll also try a few variations on the diet. I presume someone else must have tried this already, my guess is that it goes badly and people don't report their failures. I may well be the hundredth person to try, but even if that's so I'll be the first to report the failure if no one else does it within a year or two.


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## DDALDD (Sep 1, 2008)

Will look forward to the results.


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## cement (Sep 1, 2008)

I am one of your half a dozen people. Nothing to prove except that the Bhps like chicken and will eat it when rats not available or money either.
It does them no harm from what I can gather from my limited feedouts.


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## Sdaji (Sep 1, 2008)

Yeah, I've given snakes a few meals of raw meat in a row just for the novelty. It never did them any noticable harm at all. About ten years ago I routinely gave them chunks of lean meat with their rodents. I figured that they'd be getting all the goodies they needed plus a triple dose of the best stuff. I never had any problems and have always wondered if they really did need all the offal. I haven't bothered feeding meat for many years now. I'm sure they'd be calcium deficient without bones, and I'd be surprised if the fat isn't important. As I said, I have a few nutritional ideas which I'll test if the pilot experiment is a success.


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## solar 17 (Sep 1, 2008)

*Bhp's and chicken drumsticks*

Hi there.MAYBE l can speed this debate up a bit...[approx.] 5 years ago l purchased a yearling female bhp off a guy who said [after l paid for her] she ONLY eats one week old chickens, well the novelty wore off these real quick[ living in an inner suburb]so l tried her on a small drumstick BINGO!!!! well for the last 41/2 years [SHE WILL NOT EAT RATS] all she has eaten is chicken drumsticks [with one MYADEC multi-vitamin capsule placed in the flesh via a knife cut]........well for the last 2 years she has produced 8 hatchies each year and is gravid again....and she is so shiney she looks like she has been dipped in clear oil.....cheers solar 17


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## Sdaji (Sep 1, 2008)

Well! That makes me optimistic about getting positive results.

Skin off or skin on?


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## nuthn2do (Sep 1, 2008)

This is a disturbing moment.


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## solar 17 (Sep 1, 2008)

*Chicken 4 snakes*

The skin.....70-80% off......cheers solar 17..ps B 4 anyone gives me a serve this BHP WILL NOT eat rats in any shape or form and trust me l am the 1st to admitt l am a bit over the top with my feeding regimes but thats me and thats it.......


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## missllama (Sep 1, 2008)

i havent done any experimenting or tests because my snakes wont eat chicken necks
tried and they wont take em one bit it once and then let go thats it

would love to see what results someone has had if they have experimented over a period of time tho

great thread sdaji


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2008)

Just a question...maybe stupid but are these 
just your every day supermarket drumsticks? 
If so I question the chemicals etc 
that get pumped into these kinds of meats...
I never eat supermarket meat for that reason.
Interesting experiment all the same.


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## Pythonking (Sep 1, 2008)

hehe solar if you want I have some quails you can try out on her, i had a simular experience with my female woma who won't touch rats no matter how hungry she is, I got onto day old chickens which my girl tok to very well but after some consultation with my vet decided that it wasn't the best idea to be just feeding day old chickens so followed my nose to quails and now all she gets is quails.


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## Sdaji (Sep 1, 2008)

Thanks, Baden. We can joke around, but if anyone wants to make your life difficult because you're feeding drumsticks to your snake you can politely tell them you've been keeping snakes for longer than they have and recommend that they direct all further questions to the nearest rock or brick wall 

itbites: At the moment I'm using bits of rats and mice, but will probably move on to beef or chicken. It's illegal to use nasty chemicals in the meat, but of course that doesn't always stop them. Maybe I'll use road kill. I pass a lot of road kill on my adventures and one fresh kangaroo would feed quite a few Death Adders!

Oh, yeah, scavenging native road kill is illegal. I'll use road killed cats, foxes, rabbits and deer (actually, since I pass enough of them, I probably will use the legal stuff).


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2008)

LMAO...ok then


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## caustichumor (Sep 1, 2008)

I remember watching a doco on the BTS in Guam, and some had actually started foraging in the rubbish bins, they had footage of one actually eating a cooked sausage. (they may not eat chicken legs in the wild, but they don't often have access to them either) Are you going to try differant meats on differant animals? red meat, poultry ect?


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## solar 17 (Sep 1, 2008)

*I knew i knew*

Itbites...whether it was a poor choice of words or not l don,t know.....but this isn,t wasn,t and never will be an " EXPERIMENT" this bhp WILL NOT eat anything else and yes the drumsticks are free-range as l dodge salt additives.......cheers solar 17


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## itbites (Sep 1, 2008)

Soz darlz my question & statement was directed at Sdaji's "experiment"  
I am sure you know exactly what your doing


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## Sdaji (Sep 1, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> I remember watching a doco on the BTS in Guam, and some had actually started foraging in the rubbish bins, they had footage of one actually eating a cooked sausage. (they may not eat chicken legs in the wild, but they don't often have access to them either) Are you going to try differant meats on differant animals? red meat, poultry ect?



It's early days and I'm not getting ahead of myself. I don't think there is a huge amount of difference between the nutritional value of vertebrate muscles. At this stage I'm just trying to establish whether or not bone, muscle, fat and skin is enough to keep snakes healthy. If so I'll try taking out the skin. It's not a funded study, so I'm not going to go much beyond what is functionally relevant to me. Time will tell, I don't have anything to report just yet; I'm just wanting to hear from people who have already invented the wheel I'm working on.


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## inthegrass (Sep 1, 2008)

although i have not been doing it for a long time, i have mds and bredli that do not blink when it comes to downing chicken necks and drum sticks/skin off.
i wish more of my snakes would eat this way. i am interested in trying other types of meat.
might have to give it a go.
cheers


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## Simple (Sep 1, 2008)

As snakes become futher removed from the wild I think their acceptance of alternate foods will increase and the alternate food market will be huge, at what cost that is to be seen. Interesting to see the out come.


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## cris (Sep 1, 2008)

Im havnt heard of any real scientific trials, i feed my reptiles fairly heavily on poultry necks, fish and foods that arnt rodents. I do supplement with supplements fairly often though if feeding plain meats or just meat and bone. I cant imagine they are missing out on anything if they are supplemented, but i will let you know if my reptiles suddenly drop dead. I havnt eaten a whole vertebrate my whole life and i havnt died yet and i also like eating chicken necks. I have raised spotted pythons and common tree snakes on diets consisting of not much rodent, but as mentioned not simply meat and bone alone and often with whole prey fed randomly too(mainly fish and rats). They are only around 3yo but seem to be doing as well as if fed a more popular diet.

The only concern i have with feeding things like chicken and beef is the antibiotics that are in it, probably worth looking at just as much as nutrional value. Perhaps my concern is not justified, but i dont know.

I would be looking overseas first, im fairly sure there are a range of artificial diets available, you could look at what is in them and work out what is and isnt needed. I cant really see how you could prove too much with a trial(well one less than 30 years long), i would be looking at what the snake needs, what it can and cant synthesise and what is and isnt in the foods you are talking about. It may be more work but it will give a much better result IMO.


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## DDALDD (Sep 1, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> For those unfamiliar with the debate, most people assume that snakes which naturally eat whole animals need to do so in captivity in order to be healthy. The reasoning is that they need all the goodies in the organs, with muscle, bone, fat, skin and fur not being enough on their own.
> 
> 
> Sdaji



Is there any other reasoning to it than that? It sounds like a case of "if they do it in the wild, they should do it captivity also," which can be sound logic but is certainly not applicable all the time. I've read that many captive snakes are fed animals that they would never hunt in the wild anyway, not sure if it's relevant to this discussion but an interesting side note. Again, will be looking forward to the results.


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## caustichumor (Sep 2, 2008)

If the trial started with hatchlings say half a clutch fed a traditional rodent based menu, and the others fed alternative flesh based foods, With monthly weighing and monitoring shedding records, scats ect you could get a fairly indicitive comparrison of any noticable differances (in a short-term trials at least) 
You never know, with the hormones fed to farmed meat poultry, you could end up with a 5 foot death adder that eats whole chickens...


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## cris (Sep 2, 2008)

Also i forgot to mention i try to use animals that havnt been bled, blood has lots of goodies in it.


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## Col J (Sep 2, 2008)

Good work Sdaji. Are you going to have a control group as well as the experimental group?

I feed my pythons a base diet of rats & supplemental chicken necks. The bhp's especially like them except for one female which won't touch them until she has had her rat first. That's OK by me. The others hook into them straight up. The morelia are a mixed bag, as some will take them & some won't. I tried to convert a 5yo md fem onto necks by suturing a rat onto a neck. (no kidding!) she took the rat & constricted the neck & pulled until she broke 2 of the 3 sutures. She ended up eating it, but tried her best to get rid of the neck part of the feed. Haven't tried her since because I reckon I would hate someone to suture a stinking carrot onto my steak! 

I started supplemental feeding after I was told of Solar's bhp fem thriving & breeding on a diet of drumsticks & the odd multivitamin. I was concerned about feeding large rats which were carrying a greater percentage of fat & take so long to grow to the larger sizes. They now get the same weight of feed by having a medium sized, leaner rat & chicken neck supplements.

I haven't noticed any difference in their health or growth rates & will continue to feed lean chicken meat supplements.

Another advantage is that if I ever have a rat shortage, (heaven forbid) I should be able to feed them necks & drumsticks, as they already have the taste for them.

my 2 cents worth,

Col J.


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## Emzie (Sep 2, 2008)

would like to see the results, buying a kilo of chicken necks is alot cheaper then buying rats


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## jasontttt (Sep 2, 2008)

The biggest killer of reptiles and humans or any animal for that matter is over feeding and hi fat diets, mybe lean chicken necks could be a good thing,some reptile breeders ,i have herd are feeding 75% chicken, and their snakes are breeding. alot of snakes I have found in the wild are very under weight , whose to say that reptiles need alot of vitamins etc to live healthy?


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

Cris: Crikey! The whole point of this experiment is to test what they need, not research what is in their natural diet and replicate it. The easiest way to give them everything which is in a whole animal is to give them a whole animal! The only benefit of the artificial diets are that they don't freak out squeamish people. I am not in the slightest bit squeamish. I could give them the occasional whole animal or supplement, but that would defeat the point of the experiment. I don't think 30 years is required. If you can grow a tiny baby up into a healthy adult and get it to produce healthy babies, that's enough for me to think we have some very useful results. Yes, it's possible that the snakes may die in 20 years rather than 50, or 50 rather than 100 (we don't yet know how long they live for), or maybe they'll live to 100 years rather than 80. We won't know everything, but we'll have some useful information and if things are going well I'll continue.

You didn't evolve eating an exclusive diet of whole animals, so it's not surprising that you can do without them. You should try eaten some though, it's lots of fun.

The 'supermarket meat chemicals' are probably not worth worrying about, but it's easy enough to use wild meat (one deer will provide about a zillion Death Adder meals, and hey, it'll sound cool if I can say my Death Adders eat venison), so that's probably what I'll use.

Yes, I have controls, although I'm not claiming that this is going to be a finely tuned experiment which will be publishable in Nature. It's just a little backyard experiment. If there is a 10% difference in growth rate, I'm not going to notice it because I'm not going to be caring. If you get two littermates and grow them up under identical conditions you'll usually get more than a 10% difference in growth anyway. I'm just wanting to know if they're going to be basically healthy on muscle, bone, fat and skin.

DDALDD: As far as I know there's nothing more to it than 'it happens in the wild so it is necessary in captivity', which is a severely flawed way of thinking and all too common among reptile keepers. I don't think there's much nutritional difference between a whole bird, a whole mammal and a whole reptile, but there is a fair bit of difference between a whole animal and a piece of muscle and a bone.

Thanks to those who are interested in helping me with the basics of experiment design  I'm an honours graduate, one of my majors was zoology and I've studied chemistry and nutrition among several other things, so I pretty much that side of things covered  I do appreciate some of the other points though, even if only because without taking some things into account, many reptile keepers will dismiss the results no matter how valid they are.

Cheers


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## m.punja (Sep 2, 2008)

Got me on board Sdaji, I have been using chicken necks as a supliment and thought of this exact experiment over and over, so what the hell I'll join. I've got some yearling tigers I'll put some souley one bone, meat and skin and some I'll keep on rodent. I'll also change the diet of some of the adult tigers to no rodent or whole bodied feeds.


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## m.punja (Sep 2, 2008)

I have heard of somewhere making their own reptile food, they mix whatever they think is needed in a reptile feed into a sausage


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## Chris1 (Sep 2, 2008)

in america u can get vegetarian snake sausages,.....would be interesting to see how long they can live on tofu,....


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## cris (Sep 2, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Cris: Crikey! The whole point of this experiment is to test what they need, not research what is in their natural diet and replicate it.



Sorry what i said wasnt very clearly expressing what i meant(im a bit retarded lol), i was just thinking it would be better to look at things on a nutritional level rather than just feeding one lot of snakes rodents and the other chicken necks(or whatever) and waiting to see what happens(after reading the above post it seems you may have already done this?). Im not suggesting a healthy snake has to have all that is in a natural diet.

Could you share any details about what you have done and are planning to do? I just find it interesting and you havnt really given any sort of detail to indicate how exactly you are approaching it. Have you already identified any likely problems?


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## RedEyeGirl (Sep 2, 2008)

looking forward to the results Sdaji, let me know if it works out OK


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## Kathryn_ (Sep 2, 2008)

I'll be very curious to see how this works out. Being a utilitarian hippie I'd much rather a few hundred large animals die to feed my girl, than a few thousand small ones.



> in america u can get vegetarian snake sausages,.....would be interesting to see how long they can live on tofu,....



Oddly enough, you can get vegan cat-food that has everything they need without any bioavailablity issues (as far as I'm aware). Seems counter intuitive, but there you have it. I'd go so far as to say I'll bet it's damn sight *better* for them than the 100% whiskas diet. I still think of futurama every time, though. 

Hippie: We thought a lion to eat tofu!
Very skinny lion: (cough)


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## Tatelina (Sep 2, 2008)

itbites said:


> Just a question...maybe stupid but are these
> just your every day supermarket drumsticks?
> If so I question the chemicals etc
> that get pumped into these kinds of meats...
> ...



Interesting point...


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## Tatelina (Sep 2, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> You never know, with the hormones fed to farmed meat poultry, you could end up with a 5 foot death adder that eats whole chickens...


Hahahaha!! Gawd imagine that!


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## bitey (Sep 2, 2008)

Good luck.


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## norris (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm guessing that you will keep the mass of food they each eat the same?


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

Wow guys, settle down :lol: I just wanted to see if anyone had already tried it, to confirm my assumption that it hadn't been done. I'm not planning a high budget, intensively measured experiment, I'm just going to answer the question: "Does muscle, bone, fat and skin contain everything a snake needs to be happy and healthy?". I'm going to do that by feeding nothing but muscle, bone, fat and skin to snakes during the critical times in their life cycle (growth and reproduction if I get that far). The question "Can they be maintained alive and well?" Has already been answered, at least in the short term. Baden's results with getting one to produce healthy eggs twice is the best evidence I've seen so far. The real cruncher will be seeing if they can be raised from babies to adults.

I'm not going to keep highly detailed growth records, I'm not going to carefully measure feeds, I'm not going to work out to the tenth decimal place how much better or worse whole rodents are or compare chicken to beef.

I refuse to condone keeping snakes (or even cats despite my hatred of them) on a vegan diet. Even if it was keeping them healthy I'd object on ethical grounds. The pain and trauma I would suffer due to disgust would in my opinion be more of a problem than whatever benefits the vegan crap was providing. Jokes aside, I'd be interested to see if it was possible with a typical snake without artificially synthesising all the necessary proteins.

Anyway, the question I wanted this thread to answer has been answered, so run amok, speculate, chat and flame :lol:


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## The Devil (Sep 2, 2008)

Solar17 has a female BHP that has never eaten anything else other than chicken. Day old chicks when little and for the last few years, chicken drumsticks.
She must be about 6 y.o. and it looks like this year will be her third year in a row with eggs.

I've been using drumsticks on jungles, diamonds, bredli and BHP for years.
Usually when rats are getting scarce I do one feed with rats and the next feed with drumsticks.

Interestingly last year with one of my bhp girls she had half swallowed a small rat when I threw in a drumstick.
She spat the rat out, ate the drumstick then went back to the rat. No guessing what she would prefer.


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## spongebob (Sep 2, 2008)

Sdaji,
I like the idea of this experiment. Can I suggest another parallel one?
In addition to seeing how these different diet affect the snakes long term health, could you observe differences to faecal matter-frequency,consistency and odour come to mind. I'm thinking that if a complete diet of whatever works out fine for health but it stinks the house out and the substrate needs to be changed every day then it may have limited use.
Bob


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

Sure, I'll keep an eye on that. I'd already paid a bit of attention, but the early results don't really speak for the whole situation...

Currently I'm using animal portions with a relatively high bone content. Consequently the faeces comes out looking very different from normal. Far more shaped and less sloppy, a little powdery and certainly less smelly. I have little doubt that the faecal matter from animals on this sort of diet will be less offensive. I don't think you need more than about half a dozen feeds in a row to work that one out. I expect when they're larger and eating a meat:bone ratio which is about the same as a whole animal's, the faeces will be more similar to regular faeces, but still 'nicer'.


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## cris (Sep 2, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I refuse to condone keeping snakes (or even cats despite my hatred of them) on a vegan diet. Even if it was keeping them healthy I'd object on ethical grounds. The pain and trauma I would suffer due to disgust would in my opinion be more of a problem than whatever benefits the vegan crap was providing. Jokes aside, I'd be interested to see if it was possible with a typical snake without artificially synthesising all the necessary proteins.



I think feeding tofu to carnivorus animals could be a good way of farming more differant tasty animals in a more sustainable way. We can take vegan technology and use it against them :lol:


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

If I had my way I'd exterminate the soya bean.


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## cement (Sep 2, 2008)

Yes death to soya bean. I agree.

Are death adders prone to fatty liver disease if fed fatty food like bhp's?


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## Sdaji (Sep 2, 2008)

cement said:


> Yes death to soya bean. I agree.
> 
> Are death adders prone to fatty liver disease if fed fatty food like bhp's?



Black-headed Pythons aren't usually all that fatty. You could keep a Death Adder healthy on an exclusive diet of them.


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## pythonmum (Sep 2, 2008)

Regarding the faecal consistency when on lots of bone, it sounds much like what happens in my dogs when they have a lot of bone. Our old rottie used to "**** bricks' after a big lamb bone.

I'm very interested to hear that many people supplement this way. I'll try it when my Morelia get larger. With regard to chemicals in meat, you can always buy organic meat products. Chickens are commonly given drugs to control intestinal parasites, but these are removed from the feed during the 'finishing' stage. I don't worry about it for myself or my animals.


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## cement (Sep 3, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Black-headed Pythons aren't usually all that fatty. You could keep a Death Adder healthy on an exclusive diet of them.


 
And vice versa! You got me with that lateral, but what I was wondering was, oh never mind...


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## NicG (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Sdaji et al,

I've already fed my Diamond Python chicken legs with success, and will continue doing this as a supplement to rats, because I believe that a variable diet can only be beneficial.

When I fed the chicken leg, I cut off half the bone because I thought that long, thick thighbone may be too much to handle. However, I've since been told that the potentially sharp bone edge at the cut is likely to be more dangerous.

What does everyone think? Leave the thighbone as it is or cut it down to size?

Cheers,
Nic


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## Frank (Sep 4, 2008)

NicG said:


> Hi Sdaji et al,
> 
> I've already fed my Diamond Python chicken legs with success, and will continue doing this as a supplement to rats, because I believe that a variable diet can only be beneficial.
> 
> ...



Do you cut down a rat to size if it is too long? if not then I would leave the thigh bone alone.


Also does anybody inject their snake feeds, rodents,cicken with mutton bird oil. if so what quantity
cheers


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## Sdaji (Sep 4, 2008)

NicG: I've fed all sorts of things to snakes 'with success'. Because people like yourself have had 'success' feeding them things like legs, I want to test if that type of food is okay for a staple diet rather than just a supplement or a half of it. People can eat chocolate cake without it doing them too much harm, they could even eat it exclusively for a while without it doing them too much harm, but in the long run it wouldn't be good. The most critical times for nutrient requirement are during growth and reproduction. If I can get snakes to grow up and reproduce without any trouble, I'll know that that sort of food is appropriate as an entire diet, and there are certainly no concerns about it being used as a supplement. Smoking a few cigarettes and not dying or getting sick might seem to indicate that they're not unhealthy, doing many things in the short term doesn't mean a lot.

I've never used mutton bird oil and am really not fond of it. Many people have had problems and I don't see the benefits being worth the risk, expense and hassle. About 10 years ago I fed steak to snakes and put calcium and multivitamin powder on it, but whether or not it mattered I can not say. Yes, that was supermarket meat and those snakes continued to thrive and breed for years after (I think all are still alive actually), but it wasn't done as an exclusive diet over many years starting from hatching.


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## m.punja (Sep 6, 2008)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/rhd-with-a-mouthful-90584

Some more food suggestions that seem to be working Sdaji, if you are looking for other alternatives


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## christo (Sep 7, 2008)

It might be worth mentioning that in Australia *all* comercially sold chicken is free of added hormones. Any hormones present are good old fashioned chicken hormones made by the cells of the chicken itself. Antibiotics are added to a lot of chook food, but that shouldn't make the chicken any less safe to eat.

Given how safe supermarket chickens are for humans to eat, I doubt there is any reason to worry about the threat to snakes from any chemicals in the chicken.

And before I am accused of being a pro chicken industry plant, I don't eat chicken myself (but only because I don't like it).


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## Sdaji (Sep 8, 2008)

m.punja said:


> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/rhd-with-a-mouthful-90584
> 
> Some more food suggestions that seem to be working Sdaji, if you are looking for other alternatives



:lol: :lol: :lol:

For a moment I was thinking "Didn't you read the thread? Ugh!", but seeing it was you I figured I'd check the link :lol:

Thanks, I'll keep paper and couches in mind if I run out of tails and other offcuts! :lol:


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## murrayanddig (Sep 8, 2008)

one thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here is the gut contents of the prey animals. a lot of carnivores get their vegies by eating animals that have already eaten them. so a snake eating a rabbit gets all the grain and grass and carrots that are in the gut. it might be easy to get the snake to eat a chicken leg, but harder to get it to eat a carrot (not already chewed up and inside a chicken gut). if the animals in the experiment don't do so well in the long term, it could be trace elements and stuff that would be associated with the vegetable component of their prey.


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## wokka (Sep 8, 2008)

Smoking a few cigarettes and not dying or getting sick might seem to indicate that they're not unhealthy, doing many things in the short term doesn't mean a lot.

So Sdaji, do you only let your snakes smoke short term or are you experimenting with habitual smoking.


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## Sdaji (Sep 9, 2008)

murrayanddig: It hasn't been mentioned here, but it's completely covered already. Plants are not essential in the diet of any Australian snake, and almost certainly not in any snake at all. You can feed a snake exclusively on carnivorous animals, that's nothing unusual, in fact, in the wild it is often the norm. The subject comes up from time to time, but there is nothing to it.

wokka: I'm not deliberately experimenting with smoking, although I don't enforce any strict rules on them. As with drinking, illicit sex, viewing of adult movies, etc etc, I leave the choice up to each snake. A liberal attitude is something I feel important in maintaining a high morale in the colonies.


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## Carpetcleaner (Sep 12, 2008)

I tried to feed my Carpet Python a chicken drumstick today.He didn't like it.
It was a KFC hot and spicy. 
I am going to try him on the original recipe tomorrow.:|



Just kidding, though it does like day old chicks.


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## gruntbox69 (Oct 3, 2008)

I have been feeding my 2 coastals and only one of my jungles chicken necks lately i first herd of the idea from a freind who new some one else had feed there coastal chicken necks for 12 years and still is. so i went to the local buchers and asked for some chicken necks he said $3.00 a kg my jaw nearly hit the floor so i said what do people normally buy them for, he replied for pet dogs or soups, I said have you ever herd of people feeding them to there snakes and he just look at me like i was about to though a snake at him. So i said ok what does the soup taste like, He said its the tastest part on the chicken, So i bought a kg of chicken necks and feed my pythons only 1 out of pythons did not want to eat them but the rest did. The coastals ate quite a few five to be exact, I Watched them carefully over the next few days one thing i noticed was there poo was as clean as i ever smelt and after a week there skin shiny and smooth. the one that did not eat the chicken necks scales are mat and poo really stinks. so... so far so good.


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## pythoness (Oct 3, 2008)

lots of hormones and antibiotics in meat chickens.


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## BenReyn (Oct 3, 2008)

bout time soneone finds out mate!


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## cris (Oct 4, 2008)

pythoness said:


> lots of hormones and antibiotics in meat chickens.



Chicken farmers havnt been using hormones for ages. Im not sure if the antibiotics would still be active when the meat is consumed, it would be interesting to know. I think freerange type chickens are probably better but it doubt commercial ones would cause any harm. Is there any evidence to suggest they may be harmful?


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## daniel1234 (Oct 4, 2008)

Wow what a great thread. It's got every thing, education. humour, and other stuff I am to tired to say properly. I have read the whole thread, just wish I knew how to do multiple quotes. I heard some where some one said that animals such as cats, need to eat a bit of fur, skin, etc because it provides them with roughage or something as in the wild when they eat through an animal. Mind you it doesn't matter if your vegan, alternative, have fast food gold cards, or whatever, something will kill you eventually. Especially those soy beans, like drinking cough syrup only without the high:shock:....oops.

And as for freedom of choice for your herps, I really don't know, my childrens got on ebay once and almost brought a car......


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## Sdaji (Oct 4, 2008)

pythoness said:


> lots of hormones and antibiotics in meat chickens.



The hormone thing is a myth, but hey, believe what you like *shrug*. They do use antibiotics, although if they're safe enough for people they're presumably safe enough for snakes. Either way, I don't use chicken of any type, age or source to feed my snakes. If you want to talk about nutrition issues and chicken you might want to think about the lack of certain vitamin in babies, but then again, snakes are pretty hardy and adapt well to dietary issues... mostly... usually... we think. Anyway, it doesn't really seem new or relevant to this thread.

daniel: glad you like the thread  Since the thread has been bumped up, the snakes are going well and Tails is probably about four or five times his initial weight, and looking good


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## m.punja (Oct 5, 2008)

good to hear Sdaji. Are you cutting away the excess fat from the chicken necks? You have probably already explained that but I'm too tiered to go back through it. When feeding chicken necks to my reptiles, especially if it's going to be a tight fit, I also chop off the protuding sharp bones and the fatty parts. All my reptiles take them readily, one tiger is a little hesitant.


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## Sdaji (Oct 6, 2008)

Dude! I'm not using chicken! :lol:


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## m.punja (Oct 7, 2008)

oh


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Oct 7, 2008)

The v.f.f say that there are no hormones or antibiotics in chicken..
Might be true, but the same people also say there is no hormones in beef where as i know for a fact there are.
This is because when i worked on a beef producing farm we would worm(drench orally) and spray the pink eye spray castrate and dehorn them them in the crush and also deliver a hormone capsule via a hypodermic gun behind the ear of each animal that was in the crush.
This was biannual event.
Any way i fed chicken necks to most of my animals from skinks to frogs and snakes and have done so for years with no ill effect that i know of.


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## moosenoose (Oct 7, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> The hormone thing is a myth



So how do you explain the monster breasts and thighs phenomenon 8)


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## caustichumor (Oct 7, 2008)

moosenoose said:


> So how do you explain the monster breasts and thighs phenomenon 8)



Augmentation???:lol:


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## Choco (Oct 7, 2008)

Sdaji,

Great idea. I don't see whats some people can't understand about the concept; can a snake be raised to be healthy on an alternate food source other than whole animals? I knew some people occasionally fed chicken necks etc but didn't realise there were so many. Might have to look into it myself. Certainly cost effective.

A couple of questions now that your a month or so in. I've read the entire post and might have missed these but
1. If not chicken what exactly are you are feeding? You mentioned road kills are you actually using these(I might have missed the sarcasm)? 
2. For those using chicken necks and/or whatever you are using is there any risk of sharp bones doing damage to a snakes internals as it goes down and so should be trimmed. A comment was made "you don't trim Rats" but their bones are intact ie. no sharp points and covered by fur.
3. Do you warm/prepare the feeds the same as feeding a frozen rodent?

Cheers,


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## dragozz (Oct 7, 2008)

some rats still have sharp nails but when they go down it doesn't do the snakes any harm, the chicken neck bones that stick out (if any) are not big so really it shouldn't do any harm.



Choco said:


> Sdaji,
> 
> Great idea. I don't see whats some people can't understand about the concept; can a snake be raised to be healthy on an alternate food source other than whole animals? I knew some people occasionally fed chicken necks etc but didn't realise there were so many. Might have to look into it myself. Certainly cost effective.
> 
> ...


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## Carpetcleaner (Oct 7, 2008)

> So how do you explain the monster breasts and thighs phenomenon


 
I know of plenty of women with "plentiful" thighs and breasts and they don't take hormones to achieve the result. Hahahaha.


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## junglepython2 (Oct 7, 2008)

Carpetcleaner said:


> I know of plenty of women with "plentiful" thighs and breasts and they don't take hormones to achieve the result. Hahahaha.


 
They just eat plenty of chicken


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## BlindSnake (Oct 7, 2008)

We use chicken (or beef) heart when we have the need to force feed. (in place of pinky mice or parts thereof)
As there is much less water content, and it is basically pure lean muscle, you get more bang for your buck, so to speak. We have noticed that this substitution can improve condition in the animal, much quicker than an equivelant amount of pinky would have.
When we do have occasion to use them, we give the leftovers to a cpl of our pythons who are pigs, and will eat anything, any time. They seem to give a boost to these snakes who are still growing aswell.(the only drawback is the gross squelchy sound thaat a whole heart makes when being eaten!) 

I know that this is not the aim of the experiment, but thought this observation might add to your ideas on the topic of nutrition and food subtitution.

We got the idea from overseas keepers who also see the same results, and use heart to start their hatchies.

We have found it invaluable, when a rapid increase in condition is necessary.
(and at 50c for 6 chicken hearts, well, you cant beat that!}

What I would find very interesting, is if you notice similar differences when trying different animals and different muscle groups..


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## Sdaji (Oct 8, 2008)

I won't feed them chicken or beef, or any meat intended for human consumption. Don't worry, I'm fully aware that it would turn them into monsters which would make Godzilla look like a Garden Skink. I won't do it! Disaster averted! You're all free to go about your normal lives.

Choco: Thanks for your questions. Any apparent cynicism is humour, all in good fun, and not directed at you.

1) I'm still using rat legs, tails and fillets. I'll probably use road kill in the future, likely stuff I run over myself. I hit a deer and a kangaroo on the way back from my girl's place recently, there's always a lot of goodies on the road there. Maybe they'll have been eating hormones left out by goverment conspiracy workers, but I'll take that risk.

2) Most people don't bother.

3) Yeah, room temperature or so, sometimes warmer, sometimes cooler, depending on how I feel and how quickly I'm working. (many will now want to assasinate me for not strictly heating them to 37.1 degrees celcius, flame away  ).

4) Oh no! We're all going to die!


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## Choco (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks. I have a fussy jungle who doesn't like thawed mice only fresh killed. I might see if she'll take drumsticks.


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## cris (Oct 8, 2008)

Choco said:


> 2. For those using chicken necks and/or whatever you are using is there any risk of sharp bones doing damage to a snakes internals as it goes down and so should be trimmed. A comment was made "you don't trim Rats" but their bones are intact ie. no sharp points and covered by fur.
> 
> I believe there would be a risk, i avoid feeding large necks to my snakes for this reason. I also remove any obvious sharp bits sticking out. Snakes can definately hurt or kill themselves by eating harmful food items. I wouldnt be suprised if they could swallow large necks with sharp bones sticking out with no side effects, but i dont see any point in risking it. The comparison with whole prey isnt valid at all, most animals are designed so they can be comfortably swalloed head first when whole, cut them up with jagged bones sticking out and its a differant story.
> 
> ...


.


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## gman78 (Oct 8, 2008)

My BHP's love chicken drumsticks.
They're the only pythons i will feed them too.


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## Glider (Jan 15, 2010)

Update Sdaji?


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## Sdaji (Jan 18, 2010)

I'll be talking a bit more about this in the not too distant future. The project is still going, although it is a hassle cutting up dead rats all the time, so I have reduced the number of snakes on the guts-free diet.


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## zulu (Jan 18, 2010)

*re Feeding*



gman78 said:


> My BHP's love chicken drumsticks.
> They're the only pythons i will feed them too.



Bhps that ive got were largely raised on chicken necks and drumsticks alternated with rats and mice,i put pics on this forum of the them eating them several years back,these days they are on rats because i got tired of sitting down scrapinf fat off and tryibg to soak up the ice water they put in with them to bump up the price.Big coastals and diamonds used to eat the chicken drumsticks on occasion after ide scented them,not a thing to get carried away with but works in moderation.


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## Chuckface01 (Jan 18, 2010)

this is probably a stupid question, but if you feeding things like drumsticks do they still react and have a feedign response? like coil up aroudn the drumstick and squeeze it to death? 
If so isnt that a bit unhygenic for the snake? i mean, raw chicken can be quite sticky, and gettign that all over the snake? does it get messy liek that?


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## kupper (Jan 18, 2010)

itbites said:


> Just a question...maybe stupid but are these
> just your every day supermarket drumsticks?
> If so I question the chemicals etc
> that get pumped into these kinds of meats...
> ...



alot of the supermarkets are supplied by boning rooms adn catering companies

my god parents own Pj meats and they supply every safeway with the meat and wrapped stuff for htere shelves

no chemicals trust me , its the chicken you need to worry about


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## dig3283 (Jan 18, 2010)

was in woolies yesterday and saw turkey necks much bigger in size for a comparable proce to chicken necks. has anyone tried these


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## beersdave (Jan 18, 2010)

great idea i better start feeding my snakes T bone steaks for dinner, and coco pops for breakfast. a good natural diet.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 19, 2010)

Here is an account of change of diet in Lace Monitors I un-intentionally trialled.

I had an adult pair of Lacies that had been breeding succesfully, laying fertile eggs and double clutching for me for 2 seasons.
They were fed on a routine diet as below:
SUMMER
Sunday - 3 weaner rats each
Monday - 2 eggs and 2 chicken necks or wings each
Tuesday - 5 mice each
Wednesday - 1 weaner rat and 1 DOC each
Thursday - starve day
Friday - 2 weaner rats and 1 DOC each
Saturday - 2 eggs and 2 chicken necks or wings each

SPRING/AUTUMN
Sunday - 2 weaner rats each
Monday - starve day
Tuesday - 3 mice each
Wednesday - 1 weaner rat and 1 egg each
Thursday - starve day
Friday - 2 weaner rats each
Saturday - starve day

WINTER
were not fed at all, unless we had a few hot days in a row and they were out and about, in this case they would be fed a mouse each.

The next season we then reverted to only feeding them 2 - 3 DOC per day or 4-5 chicken necks or wings per day(budget constraints). The first clutch comprised of 40% slugs that were shrivled, brown and clumped together with the other 60% of the eggs looked great.
The second clutch that season was all infertile and a shrivled up brown mess.

This next season we reverted back to our original diet stated at the top and our first clutch was about 80% fertile. Still waiting on the second clutch.

Our conclusion to the infertile eggs was the change in diet. However we dont have any hard evidence to support this. But our observations so far certainly suggest that the infertiles were probably due to the diet change.


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