# Frontline on snakes for mites?



## Horsy (Jul 31, 2008)

One of mym ates took her 6 month old TINY coastal to the vets because she had mites. DIdn't tell me before she went to the vets and I'm sure it wasn't a reptile vet as they told her to use Frontline on the snake? If it didn't kill the thing, I don't think it would actually travel well down scales as it's designed for skin? Is this lethal on a snake that small? She'd already applied it when she told me and I haven't heard from her.


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## slacker (Jul 31, 2008)

I honestly don't know about the use of it on small snakes, but I've used it on larger ones with no problems. Again, it was recommended to me by a vet--a reptile vet.

Apparently it gets absorbed into the fatty tissue below the scales and then it kills off mites actively feeding on the animal.

Of course, the mites need to be eradicated from the area, not just those actively feeding, so it's only part of the treatment.


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## Radar (Jul 31, 2008)

Was it the fronline spray or an individual applicator?


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## Horsy (Jul 31, 2008)

That's a relief. It's her first snake and I'd hate for her to die.


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## Horsy (Jul 31, 2008)

The spot on, not the spray.


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## slacker (Jul 31, 2008)

The stuff I was given was the spray. You're supposed to spray it onto a dry cloth and then wipe the animal down with it. 6/sprays per kilo.

I don't know how you would go about treating a tiny coastal with it. What's half a spray?


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## Radar (Jul 31, 2008)

I imagine the spray would be more appropriate than the spot on applicator, maybe recommend she get some from the local petshop if she wants to stick with frontline?


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## wokka (Jul 31, 2008)

I have used spot on dog frontline with a cotton bud on hatchoe anteresia and morellia with no Ill effect.


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## Manda1032 (Aug 1, 2008)

Do not use spot on on reptiles. It has chemicals in it for ticks which is poisionous to cats and other animals if ingested. Use the spray. It can be used on very young pups and kittens, as well as rabbits etc and goes off the weight of the animal. Spray the chemical AWAY from the animal, on your hands or a cloth and rub it onto the animal or cover the face with a cloth and spray the animal so the reptile doesn't inhale the spray.
Even better still you can use fido's free itch rinse in a spray form or Bird mite and lice spray works wonders. Again us these items in a well ventilated area and make sure they don't inhale the spray. For applying to the head/face use a cloth that has been soaked in the chemicals.


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## Helikaon (Aug 1, 2008)

i wouldn't use any of the above on a reptile. unfortunately every drug used for treating mites is quite dangerous but i would be useing a dilute ivermectine solution wiped on with a cloth.


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## herptrader (Aug 1, 2008)

What is wrong with Top of Decent Reptile Mite Spray?


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## herptrader (Aug 1, 2008)

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## Schlumpe (Aug 1, 2008)

*Mites/Ticks*

I have used Permoxin before and it worked fine. Just diluted in water and soak for a minute then wipe off. Repeat twice and all were gone.


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## Helikaon (Aug 1, 2008)

herptrader said:


> What is wrong with Top of Decent Reptile Mite Spray?



the active ingrediant


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## Fireflyshuffle (Aug 1, 2008)

im intrested in this post.. so heliakon, whats whe active ingredient as ive never used it before?if its for mites why cant it be used?does it have adverse reactions in some animals?if i can remember this stuff, top of decent is only meant to be used for cage furnishings not the snake?


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## Helikaon (Aug 1, 2008)

shnakey said:


> im intrested in this post.. so heliakon, whats whe active ingredient as ive never used it before?if its for mites why cant it be used?does it have adverse reactions in some animals?if i can remember this stuff, top of decent is only meant to be used for cage furnishings not the snake?




you are right it shoudl only be used for cage furnishings, though people also use it on the snake. unless it has changed the active ingrediant is d-phenothrin, which has been recorded to have adverse reactions on reptiles and other animals including people. but in saying there has been recordings of adverse reactions to every mite treatment drug. they are all rather dangerous drugs. if used correctly you would probably never see any problems at all, my opinion is simply out of all of them i trust an ivermectin dilution over the rest.


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## junglemad (Aug 1, 2008)

Helikaon said:


> the active ingrediant




i have used TOD before spraying it onto the snake from 30 cms with no problem. take out the waterbowl first then spray till the enclosure looks foggy making sure you get right into the top corners where mites like to lay their eggs...leave for 30 mins or more then strip the cage, new furnishings and newspaper , disinfect and refill the waterbowl. Repeat in 5 days, repeat in 5 days...all gone

don't get any more new snakes, don't do breeding loans...Bob's your uncle


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## Helikaon (Aug 1, 2008)

junglemad said:


> i have used TOD before spraying it onto the snake from 30 cms with no problem. take out the waterbowl first then spray till the enclosure looks foggy making sure you get right into the top corners where mites like to lay their eggs...leave for 30 mins or more then strip the cage, new furnishings and newspaper , disinfect and refill the waterbowl. Repeat in 5 days, repeat in 5 days...all gone
> 
> don't get any more new snakes, don't do breeding loans...Bob's your uncle




so what do you do just get the snake out and spray it not getting it in the mouth or eyes or do you leave the snake in the enclosure while you mist it. because i dont aggree with having the reptile breathing in the chemical. a lot of drugs need to have dose rate reduced significantly if admistered via the airway, or something similar as the bioavailability is so much higher.


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## Fireflyshuffle (Aug 1, 2008)

my aussie sheps ivermectin sensitive, they administer that into her she will be dead within 10 minutes.thats not a reptile but in saying that your right, it goes to show no drug is safe, esp if not administered properly. thanks Helikaon


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## junglemad (Aug 1, 2008)

mate the snake is in the fog as it settles all over it and gives it some relief from the mites the only thing i noticed is a big yawn every now and again


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## Manda1032 (Aug 2, 2008)

Ivermectin is a sheep dip, I can't believe how many people prefer it over things like bird mite and lice spray.
These are suggestions only for people like me who don't have access to TOD. I can only get it if I order it, no one here stocks it. I knew people who recommended Mortein fly spray to kill parasites on ALL animals.... now that's just messed UP


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## Fuscus (Aug 2, 2008)

junglemad said:


> ....don't get any more new snakes, don't do breeding loans...Bob's your uncle


And treat all nearby wild herps. If , like me, you have a large colony of AHGs in your place then they will act as a mite reservoir...

Since that is not possible , every time I clean out a cage I treat it with reptile-guard. Seems to work


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## Moreliaman (Aug 2, 2008)

Ive used frontline on adults & yearlings, not just morelia either, & Ive never encountered any after effects from using it .
Last year I used 3-4 drops (spread out along the length) on a 7ft female .........& if its a small snake then just 1 drop. Never needed to repeat the dose as it always cure's the problem.
(plus i water some down & spray the viv, then leave it 24hrs before the snake is put back in)


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## twodogs (Aug 2, 2008)

Has anyone seen first hand any problems associated with spraying TOD with the snake still in the enclosure?


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## TrueBlue (Aug 2, 2008)

Ivermectin is highly toxic to say the least and i would not ever consider using it on a reptile.

Permetherin on the other hand,(a synthetic form of pyretherin), is far safer and will kill mite and eggs with only one application, if used properly one treatment is all that is needed.
Just a pity that the standard orange medic is not available any more as it was magic stuff for the treatment of mite.


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## MatE (Aug 2, 2008)

twodogs said:


> Has anyone seen first hand any problems associated with spraying TOD with the snake still in the enclosure?


Yes a mate had used it in a enclosure with the animal inside,he only used a small amount and it ended up with no muscle control and had to be put down.And yes i wish orange medic was the same old stuff as it worked great.I use diluted bleach to kill the eggs and any little buggers that are crawling around.


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## BlindSnake (Aug 2, 2008)

MatE said:


> Yes a mate had used it in a enclosure with the animal inside,he only used a small amount and it ended up with no muscle control and had to be put down.And yes i wish orange medic was the same old stuff as it worked great.I use diluted bleach to kill the eggs and any little buggers that are crawling around.


 
Nasty.. Anyone else had probs?

Iv used it before, but sprayed a burst or two into each corner of the tank, then a few smsll sprays around the outside joins of the tank. Then put the snake back in straight afterwards. There is no need to treat the snake directly with TOD, in my experience anyway. I would never even contemplate 'fogging' the tank with the snake still in there. I dont trust it THAT much!! (and IMO its just not needed for a sucessful treatment)

Im wondering if we could get more details on how the animal mentioned above was treated? It is concerning to hear a story like that.. Iv not heard of anyones snake dying after the use of TOD until now


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## Nekhbet (Aug 2, 2008)

synthetic pyrethrins are toxic to cats so dont go spraying TOD around them 

Aus Sheps, rough collies and borders have Ivermectin sensitivites so Frontline shouldnt even be used on them (Selemectin)

I still prefer TOD to anything else safety wise.


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## Kirby (Aug 2, 2008)

Manda1032 said:


> Do not use spot on on reptiles. It has chemicals in it for ticks which is poisionous to cats and other animals if ingested. Use the spray. It can be used on very young pups and kittens, as well as rabbits etc and goes off the weight of the animal. Spray the chemical AWAY from the animal, on your hands or a cloth and rub it onto the animal or cover the face with a cloth and spray the animal so the reptile doesn't inhale the spray.
> Even better still you can use fido's free itch rinse in a spray form or Bird mite and lice spray works wonders. Again us these items in a well ventilated area and make sure they don't inhale the spray. For applying to the head/face use a cloth that has been soaked in the chemicals.



what your thinking about is ADVANTIX not frontline.. frontline is aproprite for dogs/cats/rabbits etc. and frontline doesnt do ticks. their tests prooved negetive.


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## Nekhbet (Aug 2, 2008)

frontline PLUS has chemicals for ticks in it as well

Advocate will do mites such as demodex, sarcoptes and ear mite but does intestinal worms, fleas and heartworm.


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## -Peter (Aug 2, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> Ivermectin is highly toxic to say the least and i would not ever consider using it on a reptile.
> 
> Permetherin on the other hand,(a synthetic form of pyretherin), is far safer and will kill mite and eggs with only one application, if used properly one treatment is all that is needed.
> Just a pity that the standard orange medic is not available any more as it was magic stuff for the treatment of mite.


 
tou bloody che' on all three, I did talk to the person who developed Orange Medic not to long ago. He still has the formula.


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## jean19 (Aug 3, 2008)

head lice shampoo works well too .


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## Jungle_Freak (Aug 3, 2008)

I have to agree with Rob on the toxicity of ivomec 
top of desnt is very good ,


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## Rene (Aug 3, 2008)

I go with Jean 19 In Holland most of the snake keepers take lice shampoo for humans.
we buy a bottle at the farmacie with 60 ml shampoo ( With 1 % permetrine) and we put 15 ml shampoo on 1 liter of water and we spray everthing with it.
Snakes, even the eyes, everything in the beholder, also the outside of the beholder ( remove the waterbowl ) it even kill the eggs of the mite. repeat it after seven days and the job is done.
I don't the name of permetrin in Australia. ( google ? )
It works and the beholder smells like soap


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## HerpDoc (Aug 4, 2008)

Frontline is fine to use on reptiles to treat mites. The spray is the best the spot on won't really work (reptiles don't have glands in their skin so they are unable to absorb topical treatments). Obviously don't soak the animal in it but apply enough so that you have treated the entire surface area. Leave it on for about 10 minutes and then gently rinse off. Like all of these sorts of medications make sure you avoid areas like the eyes and mouth. Make sure you don't have them in a heated enclosure so the medication doesn't vaporise. Frontline will treat ticks in dogs, but needs to be applied every 2 weeks.
TOP is the best IMO, just place the animal in a calico bag and give it a light spray, leave it for 10 minutes etc etc. The advantage with this product is that it can also be used to treat the environment which is the most critical step to eliminating mites from a collection.
Orange medic was not the best product going around, it is a pyrethrin, much more toxic than the synthetic pyrethroids. 
Ivermectin can also be used. I've used injectable without without any problems in reptiles but have seen cases of suspected toxicity in bluetongues treated with topical (possibly aerosolised the treatment??) Ivermectin cannot be used in chelonians, it is toxic for these guys.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 4, 2008)

HerpDoc, sorry but your wrong there.
Orange medic's active ingrediant is permetherin, which is a synthetic, and imo it was by far superior to any other mite treatment out there if used correctly. 100% safe and 100% effective when treating the animal and its enclosure with only one single treatment required.


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## kaidro (Aug 4, 2008)

that scares me. how do we know if the snake has mites? mines smallish but is not any signs of being sick. but just for future reference, how would you know if it was sick? thanks


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## Harro (Aug 4, 2008)

TOD is quite a good product & very safe if used as per manufacturer's spec's. Callington Haven provide a technical Data sheet out-lining the correct way to use TOD for mite control on reptiles. 
Note: every miticide/insecticide used and recommended for reptiles is potentially toxic towards reptiles and therefore care must be taken to use it as recommended by experts such as vets and/or manufacturer. 

Basically use TOD as follows:
1. remove water bowl for 24 hours;
2. remove reptile from enclosure;
3. spray for 2 - 3 secs for a typical enclosure of 2' x 3' (adjust application to suit size of enclosure);
4. leave enclosure closed for approx 15 min;
5. return reptile to enclosure;
6. spray a line around enclosure to create barrier, repeat barrier spray every second day during the treatment 
(e.g. if need to retreat enclosure in seven days time then keep applying barrier spray);
7. return water bowl after 24 hours;
8. clean out enclosure and destroy any substrate;
9. repeat process in 7 days time;
10. third application may be required depending on severity of infestation.

TOD is used to fumigate the inside of an aircraft arriving in Australia from over seas. It's original purpose was and still is to knock down and kill insects which may have hitched a ride from an overseas country. It provides a limited residual effect however biodegrades fairly quickly. It is virtually non-toxic and extremely safe to use around humans. This treatment is undertaken on all aircraft arriving in Australia as part of AQIS requirements and is undertaken with crew and passengers on board. I have used it for this purpose for some 22 years now without any problems and have also used it for treating reptiles for many years now without any problems.

Cheers,
Harro


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## HerpDoc (Aug 5, 2008)

You're right TrueBlue I realised my mistake as I pressed the submit button. Sorry if I confused anyone. TOD is still what I would recommend though.


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## That_Guy (Aug 5, 2008)

kaidro said:


> *how do we know if the snake has mites?* ... ... just for future reference, how would you know if it was sick? thanks


 
Just Bumping these questions!! Anyone got any suggestions where to find the answers!?
Cheers


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## TrueBlue (Aug 5, 2008)

most snakes will continually soak themselves in water to kill the mite once they have them.
You will see tiny black dots in the bottom of the bowl.
Once they are heavily infested with them you will see tiny white specks on the snake, especially around the head and neck area, these are the mites droppings.


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## That_Guy (Aug 5, 2008)

Cheers True Blue


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## FAY (Aug 5, 2008)

I always use TOD, never had a problem......you use the spray to fog out the enclosure (remove any food and waterbowl) NEVER spray directly on the animal. I could be wrong but I have heard that TOD can be deadly to adders.


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## Moreliaman (Aug 10, 2008)

HerpDoc said:


> The spray is the best the spot on won't really work .


 
Well the spot-on worked perfect for all of my snakes EVERY time ive needed to use it!


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## ferris (Aug 28, 2008)

i used tod and my reptile got poisened and almost died do not spray near reptile keep well away spray in cage with no reptile and let arate wipe down everything


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## sej66 (Aug 28, 2008)

Where would a lone snake get the mites from in the first place


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## Moreliaman (Sep 1, 2008)

sej66 said:


> Where would a lone snake get the mites from in the first place


 Hummmm... from you !  You could carry them home on your clothes!


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## gman78 (Sep 1, 2008)

Don't know i'd try it


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## wokka (Sep 1, 2008)

What is wrong with Orange Medic? I ahve talked to a number of large breeders who still sware by it. From what I've read there is a suggestion that the addition of teatree oil is detrimental to snakes. Is there evidence of this or is it another internet fact. ( write it three times and it is true).


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## CodeRed (Sep 1, 2008)

The new orange medic has a much higher concentration of permetherin than the old orange medic. Its over 10 times higher if memory serves me correct. This may be why people are having problems, not just because of the tea tree oil.


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## wokka (Sep 1, 2008)

I presume that would only effect the dilution rate??


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## CodeRed (Sep 1, 2008)

wokka said:


> I presume that would only effect the dilution rate??


 

yes, but people may still be using the old rates.

here I found an old thread about it

http://www.aussiereptilekeeper.com/...topic&t=3890&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## hugsta (Sep 1, 2008)

I also used to use orange medic and it was awesome. But stopped using using it when I heard about them changing the formula. I now use TOD, never had a problem with it. Besides, if you buy a yellow can of TOD you get a free pic of my female olive python on every can. 
You should also treat every 3 days as the life cycle of a mite can be from egg to adult in 3 to 4 days.

Cheers
Daz


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2008)

wokka, its the tea tree oil in the orange medic plus.
Its very toxic to reptiles, its very toxic to most things from what i understand.


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## CodeRed (Sep 1, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> wokka, its the tea tree oil in the orange medic plus.
> Its very toxic to reptiles, its very toxic to most things from what i understand.


 
Have you tried the new orange medic plus at the new dosage rate?


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2008)

coedred, no i wont use it becuase of the tea tree oil in it, not the permethirn.
Its quite dangerous stuff to most creatures from what ive been told.


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## CodeRed (Sep 1, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> coedred, no i wont use it becuase of the tea tree oil in it, not the permethirn.
> Its quite dangerous stuff to most creatures from what ive been told.


 
I dont blame you I wouldnt use it either. But I wouldnt be suprised if some of the bad results were due to overdosing of permethrin.


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