# Snake ID please :) - Hinterland Sunshine Coast Area



## Froggy35 (Apr 17, 2013)

Hi everyone,

We live on acreage, in the hills in the Noosa Hinterland, QLD.

We have 2 dogs that we usually let roam in the garden area now that the weather has cooled down. Yesterday, as my hubby was playing with the dogs, he saw something close to the fire pit that looked like a snake. So he got the dogs away, had a closer look, and could tell that unfortunately, the poor bugger was dead. He came to get me, and upon closer inspection, we realised that one of our dog had killed it.. Obviously not long since the deed took place as there was no ants yet on it, and no flies.

So we carefully checked on the dogs making sure they were all good, as the snake had a bite on its head...

I took pictures with my camera but unfortunately, our card reader is not cooperating.. So the pictures here are from my husband's phone.

I measured the snake - it is 80 cm minimum and about 90 cm max (it had a few kinks, and I did not want to handle it too much).

Here are the descriptions:
- shiny black
- ventral scales are the width of the body (So looks like an elapid)
- has a like a scale that looks like an eyebrow above its eye
- its belly was all cream/white (no red, but instead looked like it had some blue where each scale meets)
- not sure about the anal scale (can't telly if single or divided) as it looks like it got bit around there
- Subcaudal scales after what I suppose is the anal scale start out to be single but become divided until the end of the tail.
- No loreal scale - it only has the nostril scale and then right away the contour of the eye scale, and nothing in-between (from pic on camera)

And it had made its den under the wood pile in the fire pit, which had been there for a while but with the non-stop rain, we can't burn it off.

Here are the pictures :





Here you can see its belly better, and the top - it was a really beautiful snake (the mark on its head is the missing scale from the bite from the dog...  Poor guy, he really took a beating...) - I gave him a 'wash' in these photos..





Its eyes are actually quite small - on the second pic, it looks like they are quite big, but on other pics (several shots) that I have on my camera, they take hardly any space on its head - so not a prominent part of the head. I'm trying to take pics of pics - but it's not coming that great, quality wise.

We have seen some red-belly black, at least 2 different ones (different size), around the dam, and around our water tank, but this one has NO red whatsoever on him/her. 

We also have tree snakes (as we find plenty of skins hanging from our frangipane trees), and we also have some pythons who tend to like staying on our warm electrical equipment under the house...! So there are plenty of snakes around here

One thing is that the head was ever so slightly less dark than the rest of the body, but as you can tell, under it's all cream/white, even the 'chin'.

All these markings makes us think it's a type of red-belly black - but the lack of red is puzzling. Could it be a blue belly black perhaps???

Anyone knows? Thanks so much for your help


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## Brodie (Apr 17, 2013)

Demansia vestigiata. Venomous... One that size should be considered dangerous.


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## Froggy35 (Apr 17, 2013)

Hi SarahJane - no it did not (I added that to the description)

Hi Brodie - yeah, it could be except when I look at pics of "live" one, it has larger eyes than this one did, and they seem to have some white marking under the eyes, which this one did not. Also, it was shiny black, with no spots on it. But, the white cream belly, that goes all the way under the 'chin', seem to match. So it would seems like a probable match.


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## Chanzey (Apr 17, 2013)

Brodie said:


> Demansia vestigiata. Venomous... One that size should be considered dangerous.



Not trying to be smart. But it doesn't look like that to me. Can you give me some points as to why you think that? I'm just basing this off that all the vestigiata I have seen have a red underside to their tail tip, and also the head is alot browner in comparison to the rest of the body. Usually with flecks through its head.


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## prodigy97 (Apr 17, 2013)

what do u think it is then?
personally it looks like a lesser black whip snake(Demansia vestigiata)


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## Brodie (Apr 17, 2013)

I can't tell you why, I just know, i have been doing this a long time and I have caught a lot of them, especially in that area. You can take my word for it, or wait until the likes of blue come on and agree with me.

What do you think it is Chanzey?


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## Chanzey (Apr 17, 2013)

I don't know what it is. Maybe it's just the locality but they are the most common snake I see here in Townsville and 0 of them have looked like that.


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## Brodie (Apr 17, 2013)

I have caught ~30 in that area and most look like the one above. That pic is good enough for a scale count, give it a go mate, counting the ventrals is the best way fr whippys. I guess we will see what other experienced members have to say eh? Noosa is 1200km from Townsville. Most around here (cairns) are like the ones you described.

Trying not to come across as arrogant. I really can't explain how I know it's a whippy, I just do.

If I am wrong I will have the biggest humble pie to devour, lol.


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## Chanzey (Apr 17, 2013)

Fair enough. I'm just trying to build my knowledge is all, and these ID Threads help a fair bit, usually I don't comment, I just wanted some clarification.

No dramas.


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## Brodie (Apr 17, 2013)

Chanzey said:


> Fair enough. I'm just trying to build my knowledge is all, and these ID Threads help a fair bit, usually I don't comment, I just wanted some clarification.
> 
> No dramas.



No worries. I wasn't having a go at you mate!

Blue will provide a detailed explanation of his ID when he logs on. Now that guy is a pro at IDs


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## Froggy35 (Apr 17, 2013)

Ok - I was finally able to take a somewhat adequate picture of a picture..! So from camera to phone.. Here is a good sideview of its head..





Thanks for your help Brodie 

I hope these images also help other peeps..


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## saratoga (Apr 17, 2013)

It's a Red-bellied Black Snake.... too robustly built for a whip snake.

One of the clues is the single subcaudals turning to divided subcaudals further down the tail.

Also have a look at the ventrals; the edges of the scales are lined with black which is typical for Red-bellies even if there is little evidence of red colouration.

Admittedly the head colour is a little strange for a Red-belly but the snake is pre-shed as is clear from the opaque nature of it's eyes


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## bohdi13 (Apr 18, 2013)

'Saratoga' couldn't agree more, I am quite new to elapids better yet indentifying ssome reptiles. You can clearly see this is not a whip snake as its body build is extremely out of proportion to a whip snake. The snake is too stocky to be a whip snake. Because of it not having red on the belly scales I couldnt lock in an answer but thanks for clearing that up.

Bohdi.


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## GeckPhotographer (Apr 18, 2013)

Was a bit hesitant to comment earlier with the pics, but the most recent pic of head clearly shows to me it's a Red Belly, head shape, the browner colouration toward to fround of the head, and the scales on the side of the body in that picture do show some 'hidden' red colouration. 
It's an unusual coloring for the species but, Pseudechis porphyriacus is what it is.


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## Brodie (Apr 18, 2013)

That last picture shows its clearly a red belly. Well done guys.

This humble pie is great!

And to think I was quite proud of myself last night, finally getting into one of these threads first, haha. Sorry Chaz!


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## Froggy35 (Apr 18, 2013)

Hey thanks for all your help guys - that's what we thought as well, but the colouring (or lack thereof) threw us off.

This forum is really great - been reading a lot on it and it's been really useful as well.


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## Brodie (Apr 18, 2013)

Yeah, the white belly and odd shaped head threw me off completely. Large whips can be pretty robust too. I don't know if ill ever reply to one of these threads again though, I was sure it was a whippy from the first photos! There goes my ego.... Lol. I guess looking at them again the eyes just aren't big enough for a whippy.


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## saratoga (Apr 18, 2013)

Brodie said:


> That last picture shows its clearly a red belly



The 3rd pic was the defining one for me... pretty clear from this one.


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## Brodie (Apr 18, 2013)

saratoga said:


> The 3rd pic was the defining one for me... pretty clear from this one.



I honestly only looked at the first two. I was so sure I didn't bother to check the other photos. Infact I would still stand by my ID if we had only the first two. I literally just looked at 3 and 4 after your post. What gave it away? The red around the cloaca?


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## Chanzey (Apr 18, 2013)

Brodie said:


> That last picture shows its clearly a red belly. Well done guys.
> 
> This humble pie is great!
> 
> And to think I was quite proud of myself last night, finally getting into one of these threads first, haha. Sorry Chaz!



Haha no dramas mate


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 18, 2013)

Hi *Brodie*, 
If you want to feel better, just check out this thread of me making a complete fool of myself... There are a couple more floating around but my memory seems to have conveniently deleted what they were about. Lol. I am not sure what I was drinking at the time but it must have been a top brew!

The reality is there is often a wide range of species in any given area, a percentage of which may fit the bill. The danger is in making decisions too early and then there is every possibility you will see what you are looking for. Add to that the uncharacteristic forms that occur in different places and with different species. Some species are totally consistent and others have lots of localised variants that you never get to hear about except in places like this. I am still finding out heaps myself. 

The good thing about having a go is that it makes you look seriously at the characteristics of the reptile. And when you get it wrong, I can guarantee you whatever lessons were to be learned will not be forgotten. Don’t worry about ego, just learning! I can guarantee you I have come up looking like a smuck more often than you would believe, but the old trial and error technique is a very powerful one and I have gained far more knowledge and understanding than the amount of ‘face’ lost. 

Some take pleasure in highlighting other’s mistakes. This is something to be ignored. Earlier today there was Delma the OP thought was a juvi brown. So I told him straight out, it definitely looks like a juvi brown – why? because they do. And any pea brained expert who says they look nothing like each other is not looking after those that are learning – a process we are all still going through to a greater or lesser degree. That why pleases me to see you have crack at it. Just don’t stop now.

Blue


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 19, 2013)

Comparing heads of _Demansia vestigiata _and _Pseudechis porphryiacus_.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 19, 2013)

An example of a cream-bellied indivividual of a RBB. There is still pink on the lateral scales adjoining the ventrals.


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## Fuscus (Apr 19, 2013)

The head scale pattern scream Red-belly. The head scalation is a very good match though the perietal scales ( big one on the back of the head) are damaged. Also they are becoming very common in the area (the cane toad effect is wearing off), I took one out of a cupboard yesterday and have moved at least six in the past week.
I also feel obliged to point out that you need to control your dogs even if only to avoid financial pain. A vet will charge $800 for a single vial of anti-venom plus additional costs. And as there is only a 30% chance of the animal pulling through they tend to want payment up front. The cheapest treatment I have heard of is $1400 while one person paid $7500 to save the dog.


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## -Peter (Apr 19, 2013)

There is a tell in the third picture, the 5 or six ventrals above the cloacal flap.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 19, 2013)

Interesting thread - obviously a RBB getting ready to shed, hence the lack of colour. The first response to this thread, where the poster suggests it's a tree snake, shows how a little (or no) knowledge could potentially lead to serious consequences. It looks nothing like a harmless tree snake, it's a potentially dangerous elapid, very obvious in the first two photos.

Seems that "tree snakes" are the common fallback species when people haven't got a clue what they're looking at, but have to add their bit...

Jamie


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## eipper (Apr 19, 2013)

Is this the same Brodie that left collection of reptiles to die in Darwin?


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## Brodie (Apr 19, 2013)

Yes I am that Brodie. Please don't comment on something you know little about. I would be happy to share the story with you Scott, PM me if you like. Infa t anyone who wants to know should PM me. I am just not comfortable posting it on the forum for the world to see. You all deserve to know the story, though.

Thanks very much Blue!


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Apr 19, 2013)

Brodie said:


> Yes I am that Brodie. Please don't comment on something you know little about. I would be happy to share the story with you Scott, PM me if you like. Infa t anyone who wants to know should PM me. I am just not comfortable posting it on the forum for the world to see. You all deserve to know the story, though.
> 
> Thanks very much Blue!



wow, the fact you openly admit that its you (i know nothing of the story) takes balls. i like someone who can admit when they stuffed up!


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 19, 2013)

Sorry I have been slow in reinstituting this lost post. I have not been well of late...

The following is a quote from Cogger and I have read and directly heard similar statements: “The lateral scale row on each side adjacent to the ventral scale rows and the outer edges of the ventral scales are bright red or pink...” “Northern specimens usually much paler pink to almost white below.” Combine that with a snake in the process of been soon to shed and you have a RBB with virtually no red. 

The colour of edges of the ventral scales in a RBB extends onto the first row of lateral scales. Both are usually edged behind with black. This can be seen clearly in the first two photos. It is also apparent that the snake is a dark glossy black (rather than dark brown) and lacks the narrow pale ring around the eye that is found on the whip.

In photo 3 I counted 58 subcaudals (single anteriorly, divided posteriorly). _Demansia vestigiata_ is recorded as 63 – 92, all divided. RBB is recorded as 40-65, single then divided posteriorly (occasionally all single). Note the relative tail lengths. Yet another atypical RBB is the lack of an all black tip to the tail.

In photo 4, viewing from above, the body is looking a little too robust for _D. vestigiata_. That aside, the critical attribute for me is the absence of the long, thin and very slowly tapering tail characteristic of whips.

The animal is (was) definitely a Red-bellied Black (_Pseudechis porphyriacus_).

Blue


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## Brodie (Apr 19, 2013)

Your posts blow me away blue. I can't wait until I am as good as you!


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 20, 2013)

There are many people here far more adept at this than I. It is probably more a reflection of the importance I place on education and the fact that I have the time to detail the ‘whys’ and ‘wherefores’. 

If you are serious about improving your ID skills then might I suggest you start keeping notes on each species. Up to date distributions and scale counts (via the ‘Description’ tab) are available via the AROD website, so you don’t have to worry about recording those if you don’t want to. Most reptile species will have something definitive that distinguishes them from others that look very similar and those are the sorts of characteristics that you want to record. A good library of field guides is essential and that can be combined with whatever field knowledge you have personally acquired or has been passed on from others. Because I have a fairly retentative memory for things that interest me, I am often slack in the recording department. That has been my downfall on occasions.

Taking the time to closely observe specimens in the field and/or cruising the net to look at photos also helps a lot. You will soon find yourself picking out the incorrectly identified specimens on this like Google images, Lol. This type of exercise gives you a feel for range of variation in specific features of particular species. And you will start to pick up features that are not mentioned in field guides. For example, Rough-scaled versus Keelback. The differ in the shape of the head. This produces a difference in the orientation of the eyes to one another. Rough-scaled eyes are in approximately vertical, parallel planes while in Keelbacks the panes are tiled towards each other at the top and the front. So when you view the head of each from directly in front, there is a distinct difference in the positioning and amount of view available of the eyes. Also the patterning in these two snakes varies. The dark bands in Rough-scales, when present, are essentially circular in nature, allowing for the fact that you are not going to get a straight edge due to the scales not being straight edged. In contrast, Keelback bands are invariably somewhat diagonal, even if they zig-zag to give an overall circular effect. Check out the pics and you will see what I mean. That is one characteristic you will definitely not find described in a field guide yet I warrant that many experienced herpers utilise it unknowingly in making an initial field ID.

Anyway, thanks for the positive feedback and I hope you find the above of some help. Others will no doubt go about it differently, so listen to all and make use of what you can that they have to offer.

Blue


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