# Nsw Licence System Update News



## SpottedPythons (Jun 26, 2017)

The NSW Native Animal Keeper licencing system is due to be updated in August, and so far there hasn't been a lot of info coming out about the updates. Here's what I know so far:

The AHS is pushing for some R1 species like bluies, beardies and most commonly kept snakes to be taken off licence
There has been some debate about removing licences as some keepers believe unscrupulous people will began to capture reptiles from the wild
The general consensus is that several R2 species (the ones rare in captivity 30 years ago) such as rough-scaled pythons and scrubbies will be now R1 or off licence.
There will be new species added to the list
The birds, amphibs and mammals lists will also be updated
That's all the info I know so far, if you know anything more, please post!  I will add updates regularly


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## vampstorso (Jun 26, 2017)

Taking scrubbies off license would seem odd given how many people get things like coastals and then end up afraid of them.

I love me a good scrubby, but it seems like an invite for a US state of affairs of buying a large species then realising... Oh hang on... This is a large species! They're obviously not hugely common now but that can quickly change.


Overall though yes great to see updates being made.
It has always puzzled me it's easier to keep invasive pests as pets than natives.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 26, 2017)

Ugh I really don't like the idea of loosing the licensing system for R1 species... 
I feel like all hell will break loose


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 26, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> Ugh I really don't like the idea of loosing the licensing system for R1 species...
> I feel like all hell will break loose


Don't worry, not all R1s are going to go off licence, it's just the common ones like carpet pythons, antaresia and certain skinks/dragons.



vampstorso said:


> Taking scrubbies off license would seem odd given how many people get things like coastals and then end up afraid of them.
> 
> I love me a good scrubby, but it seems like an invite for a US state of affairs of buying a large species then realising... Oh hang on... This is a large species! They're obviously not hugely common now but that can quickly change.


I think scrubbies will probably still be on licence, but fingers crossed roughies aren't! And on keeping invasive pests, did you know you can keep a fox or a dingo in NSW without any sort of licence? :O It's outrageous how the government allows you to do that and still surround the hugely misunderstood reptiles with restrictive legisation.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 26, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> I think scrubbies will probably still be on licence, but fingers crossed roughies aren't! And on keeping invasive pests, did you know you can keep a fox or a dingo in NSW without any sort of licence? :O It's outrageous how the government allows you to do that and still surround the hugely misunderstood reptiles with restrictive legisation.



You can't keep foxes in nsw as they are labelled as pest species due to law changes 18 mths ago 
Any that where pets before the law changes where allowed to stay as pets until they passed away 


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 26, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> You can't keep foxes in nsw as they are labelled as pest species due to law changes 18 mths ago
> Any that where pets before the law changes where allowed to stay as pets until they passed away


Can still keep dingoes, rats and mice though... and sorry to you cat lovers out there, but it really pisses me off how many natives get killed every year because irresponsible owners don't keep them in at night.


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## kittycat17 (Jun 26, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Can still keep dingoes, rats and mice though... and sorry to you cat lovers out there, but it really pisses me off how many natives get killed every year because irresponsible owners don't keep them in at night.



Yup I agree 
Hence why I'm a responsible cat owner and my 2 pets live completely inside  

I don't see an issue with owning dingoes as long as people understand they vary from normal dogs 


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 26, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> Yup I agree
> Hence why I'm a responsible cat owner and my 2 pets live completely inside
> 
> I don't see an issue with owning dingoes as long as people understand they vary from normal dogs


Don't have a problem with cats as long as they're indoor 
But the difficulty is most people who get a dingo don't understand how different they are, they think it's just a cool breed. And several organisations out there aren't helping, they actually PROMOTE the keeping of dingoes in suburban areas!!!!


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## kittycat17 (Jun 26, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Don't have a problem with cats as long as they're indoor
> But the difficulty is most people who get a dingo don't understand how different they are, they think it's just a cool breed. And several organisations out there aren't helping, they actually PROMOTE the keeping of dingoes in suburban areas!!!!



100% I'm a zookeeper and from the dingos I've worked with I would never agree with keeping them as household pets they can climb everything hahahaa I've heard stories of people finding there dingos on top of cupboards etc haha 



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## SpottedPythons (Jun 26, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> 100% I'm a zookeeper and from the dingos I've worked with I would never agree with keeping them as household pets they can climb everything hahahaa I've heard stories of people finding there dingos on top of cupboards etc haha


And they would probably drive the neighbours bonkers what with their howling...  And according to Michael Tate at the Aust. Reptile Park they kill everything entering their enclosure after dark.


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 26, 2017)

I was told by a major pet store that R1 will be deleted but the thing I don't understand is if they do away with R1 how do you get your 2 years experience to graduate to R2?
Not a problem for me as I already have R2 but what about new people trying to upgrade?


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## kittycat17 (Jun 26, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I was told by a major pet store that R1 will be deleted but the thing I don't understand is if they do away with R1 how do you get your 2 years experience to graduate to R2?
> Not a problem for me as I already have R2 but what about new people trying to upgrade?



****... good point I might start the upgrade process then 


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 26, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> ****... good point I might start the upgrade process then
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


good idea,I would suggest anyone who is thinking of an upgrade and is capable of doing so should apply ASAP,my son is doing his application as we speak


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 26, 2017)

Guys, some of the more advanced R1 are still going to be on licence. The R1 isn't going to be deleted, but rather some of the R2 moved into the R1. You'll still have a R1 list, just with some of the current R2 in it. Think of it as going down a notch - commonly kept species in R1 might be taken off licence and several of the R2 will become R1. Same system, different list!


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 26, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Guys, some of the more advanced R1 are still going to be on licence. The R1 isn't going to be deleted, but rather some of the R2 moved into the R1. You'll still have a R1 list, just with some of the current R2 in it. Think of it as going down a notch - commonly kept species in R1 might be taken off licence and several of the R2 will become R1. Same system, different list!


it's about time they showed some common sense;we have eastern,western and northern blue tongues... they all have similar food/ lifestyle/environment requirements but on different license?? none of them are rare or hard to keep so WTF?


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## Jaded (Jun 27, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I was told by a major pet store that R1 will be deleted but the thing I don't understand is if they do away with R1 how do you get your 2 years experience to graduate to R2?
> Not a problem for me as I already have R2 but what about new people trying to upgrade?



I have been trying to upgrade for 2 months this would explain the delay. They have now told me after contacting them for a third time that all upgrades are on hold until July but probably won't be processed now until August, they couldn't give me an exact time frame. I guess this is why. It seems ridiculous though to have to wait this long to upgrade. I should have done it last year but had no intention of keeping R2 species until now.
I can see why some people buy and sell off license when they make it such a long hard process just to pay the fee and then if you contact them they're little to no help. Guess I'll be waiting a while yet for them to actually do anything about it. They also mentioned there's alot of applications ahead of mine too so God knows how long they've been holding them for and not processing any.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 27, 2017)

If you currently hold an R1, when they change the system you'll be able to keep some R2s because some of the current R2s are going to become R1.


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## Jaded (Jun 27, 2017)

Kind of hoping that's the case. Then I can cancel the application and the money they would have got from me they will no longer. Will wait to see if what I want to hold moves to R1. 
It still seems a bit silly to hold onto the applications for so many months without processing them until after this time.


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 27, 2017)

Jaded said:


> I have been trying to upgrade for 2 months this would explain the delay. They have now told me after contacting them for a third time that all upgrades are on hold until July but probably won't be processed now until August, they couldn't give me an exact time frame. I guess this is why. It seems ridiculous though to have to wait this long to upgrade. I should have done it last year but had no intention of keeping R2 species until now.
> I can see why some people buy and sell off license when they make it such a long hard process just to pay the fee and then if you contact them they're little to no help. Guess I'll be waiting a while yet for them to actually do anything about it. They also mentioned there's alot of applications ahead of mine too so God knows how long they've been holding them for and not processing any.


Apparently there is only 1 person who deals with upgrades for the whole state ,this is why it takes so long for upgrades to be approved,mine took about 3 months when I did it a few years ago


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## Jaded (Jun 27, 2017)

They told me it was all on hold and has been for a few months. They could have been processing and getting more funds in that time. But hopefully it will save me some cash if the things I'm after drop down to R1 anyway.


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 27, 2017)

Jaded said:


> They told me it was all on hold and has been for a few months. They could have been processing and getting more funds in that time. But hopefully it will save me some cash if the things I'm after drop down to R1 anyway.


I never noticed before but my son showed me the upgrade prices are dearer the higher you go. Something new I'm sure


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## Jaded (Jun 27, 2017)

I'm pretty sure it's been like that for a while, I had the form on my desktop for a while before I decided to upgrade and the fees were higher for a higher class. But apparently they will charge the difference on the upgrade if you already have a licence so for example if I had a year left on the R1 they halve the fee and deduct it from the upgrade fee.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 29, 2017)

Next month I will have more details, yesterday AHS had a guy in talking about the system changes but I missed the meeting unfortunately, but if anyone did attend the meeting, please post here. If no-one did, then next month I will ask and get more details.


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## vampstorso (Jun 29, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I never noticed before but my son showed me the upgrade prices are dearer the higher you go. Something new I'm sure



If it makes you feel any better, it's always been that way in SA
I think specialist licenses are almost double a basic license.
Didn't thrill me when I upgraded 5 years ago lol.
It was $105 for one year the first year... Since then I've just tried to block it out and not begrudgingly look at the rising fees every year.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 29, 2017)

Well, let's hope in NSW they're gonna clean things up and the other states will follow. Especially in SA and TAS, their systems are very strict. I understand TAS since it's an island, but SA just wants extra revenue.


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 29, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Well, let's hope in NSW they're gonna clean things up and the other states will follow. Especially in SA and TAS, their systems are very strict. I understand TAS since it's an island, but SA just wants extra revenue.


we can only hope,but you know states don't want to agree on anything;it has been like this ever since Oz was colonised.Different sized rail lines for instance .


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 29, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> we can only hope,but you know states don't want to agree on anything;it has been like this ever since Oz was colonised.Different sized rail lines for instance .


Edit: let's WISH that the other states will follow...


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## pinefamily (Jun 29, 2017)

I don't know that SA is that strict. Apart from the pricing, our system is pretty straight forward, and the fauna unit is great to deal with.
@ Vampstorso, the specialist permit price is part of the reason we haven't got one yet.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 29, 2017)

It'd be great if you could get animals from SA though. But you guys have exempt reptile species, don't you? That's a lot better than NSW.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 29, 2017)

But hopefully, as mentioned, in August we will have exempts too!


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## pinefamily (Jun 29, 2017)

We have exempt species of reptiles, birds, and mammals. Not sure what you mean about getting animals from SA. It's very easy for us to get an import or export permit (2 day turn around), at no charge.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 29, 2017)

Don't worry about what I said, I checked right after I posted and that book is outdated.


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## vampstorso (Jun 29, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> I don't know that SA is that strict. Apart from the pricing, our system is pretty straight forward, and the fauna unit is great to deal with.
> @ Vampstorso, the specialist permit price is part of the reason we haven't got one yet.



I don't blame you. 

Having young kids now means I don't have elapids, 
And a horrific accident has meant I don't have my cockatoo (almost a year later and it still breaks my heart most days). 
Leaving me with no specialist animals actually in my care. 
So I've considered down grading due to the price... But I feel stuck. The price sucks when you're not using it, but the effort gone into getting the species approvals means I don't want to loose them either lol


I do feel a wee bit envious when I see the price of other states.... By wee bit... I really mean incredibly haha.


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## vampstorso (Jun 30, 2017)

On the website, specialist is currently $127 


Maybe I will downgrade this year.


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 30, 2017)

A category 5 reptile licence - I suppose WA's equivalent of a specialist licence - is $300 yearly. Although if you pay for three years in advance it's lowered to $650.


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## pinefamily (Jun 30, 2017)

Wow, and I thought we had it bad.


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## GBWhite (Jul 12, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Next month I will have more details, yesterday AHS had a guy in talking about the system changes but I missed the meeting unfortunately, but if anyone did attend the meeting, please post here. If no-one did, then next month I will ask and get more details.



I was speaking to a friend last night who was telling me that another of our good friends was at the meeting and from what was relayed to me it appears highly likely that there is going to be a massive shake up, even to the point that NSW Reptile Licences (and by the looks of it, somewhere not too far down the track, all other native and bird keepers licenses) will be taken out of the hands of NSWNP and handled by Service Australia (this would mean that licences will be obtained through the same body that provide car & boat licenses). Apparently this bloke from Service Australia was at the meeting. He sat there and let delegates from the AHS put there view forward and then a representative from NP before standing up, introducing himself and stating that he has been appointed to "clean up the licensing mess" and that NP wouldn't have to worry about it all after September because it was being taken out of their hands. When questioned about who was going to police the welfare and care of the reptiles he apparently told them, it was just his job to clean up the mess that is the current NSW licensing system and that side of things is outside his assigned portfolio but as he considers captives reptiles fall under the same category as pets that it would most likely be NSW RSPCA.

As I mentioned this information has been relayed to me second hand but if what I have been informed is fact (and I don't have any reason not to believe what I have been told) it also appears that there will be exempt species, no regulatory cage sizes, the ven & large monitor categories will be changed significantly and restrictions on selling specific species that are in place now will be lifted. 

It will be very interesting to see if this ends up being the actual case.

George.


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## SpottedPythons (Jul 12, 2017)

Exempt species would be a welcome breather, this licencing tangle is constricting reptile keepers across the state like mice! I also hope that some species will be added to the licencing list... maybe freshies! (Just for professionals only, of course)
Justin


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## pinefamily (Jul 12, 2017)

Obviously all of this doesn't affect me in SA, but it concerns me to hear that the welfare of reptiles will (possibly) be left to the RSPCA. If the licensing side of things gets tidied up for you NSW folk, all good, but leaving mistreatment and neglect cases to the furry and fluffy brigade doesn't bode well.


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## pythoninfinite (Jul 12, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> it also appears that there will be exempt species, no regulatory cage sizes, the ven & large monitor categories will be changed significantly and restrictions on selling specific species that are in place now will be lifted.



Very interesting George. So it looks like the "Code of Practice" that was such a shemozzle a few years ago might effectively be scrapped? What a waste of time that was anyway, for those of us who made numerous trips to Hurstville during the "consultation" process. It's no secret that Parks simply doesn't have the resources to keep tabs on every hatchling Bearded Dragon and hatchling Carpet Python sold into the system every year, and it's a pointless exercise anyway, with over 20,000 reptile keepers licensed in NSW. Will be interesting also if Service NSW takes over management of the system - for the things I already use them for, they have always been quick and helpful. I wonder if the restriction on the import of mixed-heritage GTPs will still stand - I've been trying to find a girl for a male I bred years ago, but they're thin on the ground atm it seems.

I guess what we might gain on one hand with the new Biodiversity Act could be lost on the other, with the easing of restrictions on land clearing and habitat destruction also mooted...

Jamie


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## GBWhite (Jul 12, 2017)

Hi Jamie,

I've been told that it if it does go through that it looks like the import/export permits and the mixed heritage restrictions bs for GTP will also be scrapped.

Have a good one,

George.


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## pythoninfinite (Jul 12, 2017)

Great thanks George.

J


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## SpottedPythons (Jul 24, 2017)

Okay guys, some new info on the licencing:

Because the separate animal-related organisations can't agree on anything, the new licencing system which was due to be unveiled in August this year has now been pushed back to March 2018.
There will be loads of off-licence animals - the only ones that will be on licence will be venomous, potentially dangerous (e.g. scrub python, large monitors) critically endangered or specialist care.
 Some animals formerly on R2 such as Roughies or certain geckoes will be off-licence.
Critically endangered or specialist care species incude some on the R2 and above list.


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## Scutellatus (Jul 24, 2017)

That sounds ridiculous! There shouldn't be any off license reptiles. It just encourages taking from the wild.


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## SpottedPythons (Jul 24, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> That sounds ridiculous! There shouldn't be any off license reptiles. It just encourages taking from the wild.


Well, thats how its going to be...


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## SpottedPythons (Jul 24, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> That sounds ridiculous! There shouldn't be any off license reptiles. It just encourages taking from the wild.


But it's everyone's duty to our herps on this forum to try and educate as many people as we can about taking animals from the wild...


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## danyjv (Jul 24, 2017)

I wonder if having off licence animals will encourage people to just let there pet go once the novelty where's of.


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## Jaded (Jul 24, 2017)

Absolutely, if their movements don't need to be recorded anything will be possible. Not that it's policed very well now IMO, but it's something at least to deter people from doing the wrong thing. 

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## SpottedPythons (Jul 24, 2017)

Well guys, there's still hope... like I said, the separate animal related organizations can't agree on anything, so maybe by March next year the idea will be different. This is just what's happening now.


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## Yellowtail (Jul 24, 2017)

Do I get a refund for the years my R2 licence is paid in advance? Just joking.


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 24, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Obviously all of this doesn't affect me in SA, but it concerns me to hear that the welfare of reptiles will (possibly) be left to the RSPCA. If the licensing side of things gets tidied up for you NSW folk, all good, but leaving mistreatment and neglect cases to the furry and fluffy brigade doesn't bode well.


you're 100% correct there Darren, it seems the RSPCA is run by the greens these days


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 24, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> Do I get a refund for the years my R2 licence is paid in advance? Just joking.


haha yeah, the girl who did my upgrade "accidentally" charged my credit card for 5 years instead of 2 years when I got my R2


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## GBWhite (Jul 24, 2017)

From what I hear there's plenty of reptiles being taken from the wild for whatever reason as it. 

Not sure about Olives, Scrubbies and large monitors. From what I was told it was put forward to have them classed as dangerous by the AHS and the proposal was basically shot down by the bloke from Services NSW. 

Like I said in my previous post it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. 

GW.


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## SpottedPythons (Jul 24, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> From what I hear there's plenty of reptiles being taken from the wild for whatever reason as it.
> 
> Not sure about Olives, Scrubbies and large monitors. From what I was told it was put forward to have them classed as dangerous by the AHS and the proposal was basically shot down by the bloke from Services NSW.
> 
> ...


Well, I get that Perenties and Scrubbies probably shouldn't be kept by beginners, but even though Olives can be sketchy with their feed responses, why are they still on R1 now??? But I don't think its a bad move taking Roughies off licence... who's going to go and catch one out of the wild? Sure, they have big teeth, but that wasn't the motive for placing them on R2 in the first place, and they were rare in captivity about a decade ago.


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## dragonlover1 (Jul 24, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> From what I hear there's plenty of reptiles being taken from the wild for whatever reason as it.
> 
> Not sure about Olives, Scrubbies and large monitors. From what I was told it was put forward to have them classed as dangerous by the AHS and the proposal was basically shot down by the bloke from Services NSW.
> 
> ...


sounds like the bloke from Services NSW is the only boofocrat with half a brain,good on him !


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## SpottedPythons (Nov 7, 2017)

Okay, looks like more info has FINALLY come out: http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/licences-and-permits/wildlife-licences/wildlife-licensing-reforms
Same as what seemed to be happening a few months ago. 

Low risk activities (non-dangerous/non-threatened) - these become exempt species from licencing.
Medium risk activities - enforceable code of practice (how do they enforce it???)
High risk activities (dangerous/threatened) - on licence
Benefits of this approach:

Reduces administrative and legal requirements for people keeping commonly kept and easy to care for species
Greater focus on education (don't really want to see reptiles become the next "classroom hamster" though, seeing how often they're mistreated in the US)
Basically a new Biodiversity Conservation Act has come out, replacing the old one that was decades old and out of touch. It includes in it the new guidelines for licencing, though the current system will be kept in place till sometime next year, when they will start "progressively implementing" the new system. And about the old licences, they said this:
_
"When the Biodiversity Conservation Act 2016 commences on 25 August 2017, existing wildlife licences granted under the Threatened Species Conservation Act 1995 or National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974 will remain valid until they expire or are due for renewal.

If changes to existing licence classes are implemented during 2018, Office of Environment and Heritage will notify relevant holders of existing licences beforehand if they:
_

_are exempt from holding a licence and no longer need a licence, or_
_no longer need a licence but must comply with an enforceable code of practice"_
And it says on the website - if you have a current licence, you will be given a new "biodiversity conservation licence" under the new act and of the "relevant licencing class".
Basically lots of things are changing, but a lot of it is "yet to be decided" and therefore quite vague. More info will apparently come soon.


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## kittycat17 (Nov 7, 2017)

I don’t like the sound of taking animals off licences at all. 

Yes it says there going to enforce a code of practice but they struggle doing that now let alone if no one has licences? 


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## SpottedPythons (Nov 7, 2017)

Other states seem to do fairly okay with their exempts... it's just that what NSW is doing is beyond anything like before. It's literally having more exempt species than any other state has ever had.


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## pinefamily (Nov 7, 2017)

There are similar changes coming in SA next year too.


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## kittycat17 (Nov 7, 2017)

I honestly think with the virus’ going around they should be making it tougher not easier 
I keep and breed coastals. What’s going to stop every person from getting random species and mixing them making mutts with no morphs? 



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## Scutellatus (Nov 7, 2017)

kittycat17 said:


> I don’t like the sound of taking animals off licences at all.
> 
> Yes it says there going to enforce a code of practice but they struggle doing that now let alone if no one has licences?
> 
> ...


That's without even metioning the trade in wild animals that will flourish with this stupid decision. Absolutely ridiculous!


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## Yellowtail (Nov 7, 2017)

It's all about saving money, they don't have the budget to properly administer the current system.


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## Tyloop (Nov 7, 2017)

Here in VIC blueys are off-license (as well as a few other species).

And I'd say that at least half of the bluetongues kept as household pets are wild caught.

This is just my general observation, but it would be sad if something like this started to happen to you guys :/


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## Grunter023 (Mar 29, 2018)

What is the latest with the NSW licence system? Anything changing or are they postponing everything again for another year?


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 29, 2018)

Grunter023 said:


> What is the latest with the NSW licence system? Anything changing or are they postponing everything again for another year?


Nothing definite Trent,as usual more BS and bluster.
Cheers Rick


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