# Tubs or displays...



## HellFire (Feb 10, 2014)

What's your personal preference?

I nearly forked out a few hundred for a nice display, but saw people online keeping them in plastic tubs. I mean, it's not like they move much (snakes), so now I can't see the point of keeping them in a nice display tank. Lizards I can understand, but snakes are like a piece of jewellery, you take them out and wear them every now and then, but you put them back when playtimes over. 

Also, maintenance would be a lot easier, I assume? You can take a plastic tub outside and give it a good wash down, but if the tank/ cage is made of wood or is heavy, it's more of a hassle. 


This thread leads onto my next question, what's the most active python? Every animal is probably going to have his/ her own personality, but surely some traits would exist among species, especially in regards to activity. Yeah, they're a kind of sit and wait/ ambush predator like my T, but I've heard jungles move about?


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## saximus (Feb 10, 2014)

If you want something more active maybe you could consider moving away from pythons and looking at colubrids. Green or Brown Tree Snakes are much more active than any python


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## Beans (Feb 11, 2014)

I don't see animals as bits of jewelry to be taken out and worn as you so crassly put it. I think it depends though on why you are keeping them. For breeding I can see why but for just collection purposes I think its nice to have them on display and make them like, the centerpiece of a room. Hence why you get a nice display enclosure


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## andynic07 (Feb 11, 2014)

All of my snakes actively hunt at night time after the sun goes down. They are all quite active like in the wild. I believe if a snake is overfed it may not go hunting for food at night time. GTP's are supposed to be lazy snakes but mine will even hunt at night a few days after his feed and I let them hunt for a while before feeding again because this is also good exercise. I also don't see my snakes as a piece of jewellery but more as a family pet that we love and care for even though they do not love back. I think maxims is right if you want a more active snake maybe go for a colubrid but remember that some are mildly venomous and can hurt or cause a reaction.


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## Trimeresurus (Feb 11, 2014)

Keep elapids if you want something fun.


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## champagne (Feb 11, 2014)

yes it is easier to maintain in a rack system when you have too many snake to look after, As of recently I have cut down on my collection and moved towards larger enclosure for my breeders. Pythons are climbers, they don't need to be able to climb to survive but they clearly prefer to perch up high if given the chance.


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## OldestMagician (Feb 11, 2014)

I like to think of it as the difference between keeping your dog in your average garden and on acreage. Probably not much difference in happiness levels, but there's more for stimulation.


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## Newhere (Feb 11, 2014)

Yea you might be better off getting a rubber snake if you want something you can just put away and forget about until you feel like playing with it and maintenance will be less of a hassle as you put it.


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## Jarrod_H (Feb 11, 2014)

For me I can't stand keeping snakes in tubs I think it's a bit cruel, what a boating life all they see is white or black walls, most tubs I think are too small. And I also think you would enjoy them/the hobby more if they are in a enclosure all decked out looking awesome seeing them move around late afternoon/night time observing their behavior. And even tho there behind glass they can see you and get use to you being around them like a form of interaction.


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## getarealdog (Feb 11, 2014)

Done these for my adders to "chill out" in when not living in their tubs, also use them for mating as well. Tubs suit me better for adders, don't think they care, in either 1 they still want to kill me. For safety & ease of maintenance tubs work best for me 


[/IMG]
Done these for brown & night tiger tree snakes. The night tigers feed alot better once they were put into these cages. Did have them in tubs but never seem to be "happy". Problem feeders changed within 2 days & feeding them is no longer a chore.




[/URL][/IMG]


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## smileysnake (Feb 11, 2014)

ha ha thats funny i have my bredli who is 2 year old in a 2m tall enclosure and he uses every inch of it....i would never keep him in a tub plus im in nsw and im not allowed to....


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## Grogshla (Feb 11, 2014)

If I owned my own place then I would get all my enclosures out of storage and use them. Nothing looks better than nice big enclosures. Because I rent at the moment I mainly use tub racks. I only have a big enclosure for my Bearded Dragon.


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## champagne (Feb 11, 2014)

OldestMagician said:


> I like to think of it as the difference between keeping your dog in your average garden and on acreage. Probably not much difference in happiness levels, but there's more for stimulation.



I think its more like housing a battery chicken compared to in a chicken tractor, they both eat, drink and lay eggs so probably not much different in their happiness levels either....

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getarealdog said:


> Done these for my adders to "chill out" in when not living in their tubs, also use them for mating as well. Tubs suit me better for adders, don't think they care, in either 1 they still want to kill me. For safety & ease of maintenance tubs work best for me
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> ...



adders are a little different to carpet pythons and I see no problem with housing small pythons in tubs but no tub is big enough to allow a fully grown python to stretch out. nice set up by the way.


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## critterguy (Feb 11, 2014)

Yeah I agree, tubs as bubs for a certain amount of time, displays after that so they have a bit of room to explore and things to see.


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## champagne (Feb 11, 2014)

Too many people trying to make a name for themselves without doing the work... its quicker to breed large numbers of single mode inheritance animals rather then working on a couple of projects and having people seek your line of animals because they're so spectacular. Even the single mode of inheritance animals jag, zebras, caramels, albinos ect still need to be line bred as they are still very polymorphic in their appearance.


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## RedFox (Feb 11, 2014)

I think judging by the OP's post they may want to rethink why they want to keep pythons. 

I recently started keeping some of my adult womas in tubs and was suprised to find I actually prefer the tubs compared to enclosures. 

I've found it much easier to get my 'problem' handlers out and access is better for changing water and spot cleaning. They are just as active as they they were in display enclosures. 

I have a small collection that are pets more than anything. I am also very time poor and have found by keeping some of my womas in tubs I now have more time to enjoy them.


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## xXRecreationXx (Feb 11, 2014)

Thinking of changing to tubs. As enclosures take up to much space. Easy to maintain your reptile. Like keeping Lizards , Skinks and Snakes in tubs makes it much easier to clean and maintain. Easy to transport if you need to. ( I really don't like to handle my snakes. Only 1-2 per week. , may not be even that. I would say every 3 weeks i handle them. I just have a look at the enclosure , if their is any poor.


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## Beans (Feb 12, 2014)

My little one is in a click clack at the moment. I think it's fabulous that they can happily live in a tub while they are little. It's so cheap and easy, plus it gives me time to get them a proper enclosure for when they out grow their tubs. But I wouldn't keep an adult in a tub I just think......They need to stretch out and if they can be happier in a good size tank then I'll do it. They are my animals who are in my care. I'm not going to deny them something they would be happier in just because I cbf'd or don't want the hassle.

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xXRecreationXx said:


> Thinking of changing to tubs. As enclosures take up to much space. Easy to maintain your reptile. Like keeping Lizards , Skinks and Snakes in tubs makes it much easier to clean and maintain. Easy to transport if you need to. ( I really don't like to handle my snakes. Only 1-2 per week. , may not be even that. I would say every 3 weeks i handle them. I just have a look at the enclosure , if their is any poor.



I don't think keep lizards in tubs is a good idea. Lizards like to run around and chase after their food. They some space to do that. I wouldn't put a monitor in a plastic tub.. Even saying that sounds ridiculous xD


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## xXRecreationXx (Feb 12, 2014)

Nah , Lizards are in 1.8 M Long enclosure by them self , i wouldn't put them in tubs.. I didn't worded that properly. ( What about the snakes being in plastic tubs ?


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## saximus (Feb 12, 2014)

I’ve seen arguments that if an animal eats, mates and remains in good physical condition for a number of years, then that is an indication that they are “happy” and that the keeping conditions are adequate. Keeping in mind that reptiles are largely unemotional creatures and it is generally the keepers who project their own emotions onto them, what do people base their reasoning on for having a go at the tub keepers from a “cruelty” perspective? 

Note I’m not arguing either way but I’m curious about what metrics people use to define happiness in their animals if physical heath isn’t considered appropriate. I guess the extreme parallel could be made to something like puppy farms but those animals are arguably not in good physical condition and don’t live very long.


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## champagne (Feb 12, 2014)

Tubs have there place in the hobby and I kept my large collection in tubs/racks for years but since cutting back on numbers and using cages I have seen how much my coastals use every inch of there enclosure. The reason I moved away from tubs was based on wanting to create more micro climates within the enclosure so that the carpets can have greater choice on what temp/humidity they need for optimal body conditions.


I have personally observe my carpets perching and stretching out at different spots during the day and night. I believe my enclosures provide more micro climates then can be provided in a tub, giving the snake the choice of what temps it requires for optimal body temperature regulation. I think if you are keeping pythons in tubs only to look at them to clean and feed, you really need to question why you are keeping reptiles?


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## Snowman (Feb 12, 2014)

Both are adequate ways to keep snakes. 
All intelligence is lost when people start comparing the needs of mammals to reptiles....


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## champagne (Feb 12, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Both are adequate ways to keep snakes.
> All intelligence is lost when people start comparing the needs of mammals to reptiles....



snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 12, 2014)

champagne said:


> snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?



Not having a go, but define "adequate"? Many big breeders overseas keep big, semi-aboreal pythons in the Freedom Breeder setups with no inherent problems.

I know where you're coming from here, I've never been a fan of tub systems, but I think both have there uses from a husbandry perspective (husbandry standards would be hard to maintain in a display enclosure for neonate, small species of elapids, for example). Tubs are particularly useful for maintaining large collections and likely work better in terms of a snakes overall health and well being in theses circumstances.


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## champagne (Feb 12, 2014)

imported_Varanus said:


> Not having a go, but define "adequate"? Many big breeders overseas keep big, semi-aboreal pythons in the Freedom Breeder setups with no inherent problems.
> 
> I know where you're coming from here, I've never been a fan of tub systems, but I think both have there uses from a husbandry perspective (husbandry standards would be hard to maintain in a display enclosure for neonate, small species of elapids, for example). Tubs are particularly useful for maintaining large collections and likely work better in terms of a snakes overall health and well being in theses circumstances.



I totally agree and stated that tubs do have there place in the hobby but my coastals are very arboreal and love moving around their whole enclosure perching in different temp zones within the enclosure also I find they also like to stretch out in a straight line across a branch or on the floor I haven't seen a tub that allows a 2m plus coastal to do this.


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 12, 2014)

Freedom Breeder do offer some big slide out tubs suitable for larger pythons (Burmese, Retics), but, if I were keeping these species in low numbers I'd offer the tubs in combination with a larger display enclosure(s) TBH. Or give them plenty of daily exercise outside the tub.

You can also go custom fibreglass/ poly tubs if you're after something bigger or those made for other purposes like water tanks/ drinking troughs or fruit bins, maybe with a perspex viewing window cut out of one side and on a cheap metal rack from Bunnings (for example).

Then there's these from Vision (see attached), all the easy hygeine of plastic, but in "cage" form. These (and similar) are about 2M x 1.2M x 60cm, also a low profile 2.4M version, but they aren't cheap.


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## Snowman (Feb 12, 2014)

champagne said:


> snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?



Sure.. Ever heard of google? 
If Brian B from snake bytes can house full grown boa's in a rack, I doubt it would be hard to house a coastal.

I can understand keepers wanting to see them climb. I would hope most people who keep racks pull snakes out for a wonder... But do they need it? What happens to a coastal that doesn't climb everyday? I would imagine some loss of muscle at least. But we know there are Morelia soilota species that exist on islands with out trees to climb.


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## schoona (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm only new to keeping, but I only see the "need" for tubs when keeping 20 plus herps... if you aren't at that number then keeping them in suitable, "lifelike" enclosures I think is the fairest on the animal. Sure they might "seem" happy in tubs but eventually I think the long term health (can't "measure" mental health) and size considerations should afford a proper enclosure. 

That and it's something to be proud of, nice snake in nice enclosure that just looks tidy. 

My BHP handles relatively easy, and he's in a modified fish tank at the moment. Will be constructing a tank to suit full size and hopefully will suit keeping a second BHP. It's an "expensive" hobby (not just getting a tin of PAL out for a dog) and takes a bit of time up, to do it properly its not a bad thing


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## Jarrod_H (Feb 12, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Sure.. Ever heard of google?
> If Brian B from snake bytes can house full grown boa's in a rack, I doubt it would be hard to house a coastal.



Not having a go at you but it just looks wrong to me.


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 12, 2014)

If you allow for a decent thermal gradient, some daily exercise and take into account that pythons are mostly sedentary by nature and prefer tight fitting hides as opposed to airy ones with a view, I can see no problems TBH.


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## Snowman (Feb 12, 2014)

Jarrod_H said:


> Not having a go at you but it just looks wrong to me.


Yes I'm sure you know more about snakes, their needs and care than Brian 
Too often people think of what they need or other animals they are familiar with need. If you truly understood snakes like Brian then you'd see it's a non issue.


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## Snowman (Feb 12, 2014)

Jarrod_H said:


> No not at all.


Sometimes you have to question what you see and why someone like Brian and many other snake experts do things. Most of the time people either look at things with an anthropomorphic view or a lack of understanding. 
I doubt Scales n Tails would fly Brian over for festivals and lectures if he was a shmuck. 

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From a personal view, I like to see my snakes through glass. But that is more about me than the snakes.


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## Snowman (Feb 12, 2014)

Part of snakes anatomy is that they do not need to stretch right out. That's kind of basic biology of a snake and you should know that much if you keep them. 
But like I said to the other guy You'd have to be kidding yourself if you think that the likes of Brian and other major keepers and breeders don't care about the well being of their animals. They love them! They just have a more advanced understanding than you at this point in time.


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## Newhere (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't see the problem with tubs for smaller snakes but I've seen some coastals on this site that you would never be able to fit in a tub and provide a thermal gradient.


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## longqi (Feb 12, 2014)

Experts mentioned are farmers
Any farmer needs to produce the maximum amount of produce from the smallest area in the shortest time
That is why they use racks

Snakebytes as an already mentioned example is dedicated to making money and because they are a business that attitude is correct for them
For them racks are perfect

Every animal on Earth including humans can exist in less than optimum conditions

POWs in concentration camps fed slept and bred
So does that mean concentration camps are good for humans??

Small capacity containers are useful to house some young reptiles


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## Snowman (Feb 12, 2014)

longqi said:


> Experts mentioned are farmers
> Any farmer needs to produce the maximum amount of produce from the smallest area in the shortest time
> That is why they use racks
> 
> ...


Well if John W, Rick Shine or the likes come out and say racks aren't suitable Id listen. But they haven't and don't. I find the experts are the best examples to follow rather than forum opinions.

As a side note do you really think the casualties in POW camps compare in percentages to deaths, disease and sickness for reptiles kept in tubs? As per your theory that would indeed be bad "business"!


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## Snowman (Feb 12, 2014)

*Godwin’s Law* is an internet adage that is derived from one of the earliest bits of Usenet wisdoms, which goes “if you mention Adolf Hitler or Nazis within a discussion thread, you’ve automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in.”
POW is close enough I agree...

Yes I believe all snake keepers would exercise their snakes. It's just part of keeping to get them out (usually when cleaning) for a wonder and a good look over the specimen.

So are you trying to tell me people who have written the books on carpet pythons, Australian pythons etc don't use tubs? I hope not because you would be wrong


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## saintanger (Feb 12, 2014)

ok, from someone who keeps 31 pythons of all different species - childrens, spotteds gtp, womas, jungles, coastals, md, darwins, water pythons, bhp's and bredli's and also dragons, lizards, geckos and turtles. i don't use tubs with my pythons and never have, tubs are fine for hatchies in my opinion. but with larger pythons i notice they use all the room in there enclosures. especially climbing species should not be kept in tubs.

tubs are only recomended so highly by big breeders as they keep large quantities of reptiles and produce large quantities every year and if they had to use enclosures then they would not have the space to keep so many pythons, therefore they would not make as much money.


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## dragonlover1 (Feb 12, 2014)

okay,I have read all the comments and I admit upfront I have never kept any snakes...but it just seems cruel to me to keep something in a tiny box with no exercise or anything to interest it.I would assume that any creature would prefer to do whatever it normally does in nature.
Just because it is capable of breeding in said tiny box doesn't mean it is an ideal life (and I am not denigrating people like Brian Barzyk etc.I know they are passionate) I also know that snakes are not as intelligent as humans so the POW thing doesn't work for me either but I like to keep my reptiles in something that somehow replicates their normal environment ( although somewhat smaller),in conclusion I would say that tubs and racks would be okay for hatchlings and juveniles but I think it would be ideal if they moved to bigger enclosures as they grew.


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## andynic07 (Feb 12, 2014)

I think that tubs do not allow a snake to exercise enough and they need to be taken out for exercise for a couple of reasons. Firstly it is good for muscle tone for a snake to move around and go over things rather than just minimal movement on a flat surface. Secondly I am a firm believer that enrichment is not crucial for a snake but is a bonus and my snakes are pets so I do not mind giving them extra. The last reason is I think movement encourages waste out of a snake and what I think that does is stops more fluid being extracted from the feces causing it to dry out and possibly causing blockages. These are the reasons that I choose enclosures over tubs but these things can be overcome easily with tubs and probably don't make a big difference to the snake anyway. I also doubt that a huge operation like snakebites would have time to exercise all of their snakes each week as there is so many.


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## beastcreature (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't believe from a health perspective it makes a huge difference but a less stimulating environment can mean less activity & a delay in bowel movements which with Greens, due to their incidence of prolapse is pretty important.

Tubs are a matter of convenience. If cost, space & cleaning weren't an issue I can't see how any keeper would deny their animal more room.


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## saintanger (Feb 12, 2014)

beastcreature said:


> I don't believe from a health perspective it makes a huge difference but a less stimulating environment can mean less activity & a delay in bowel movements which with Greens in particular due to their incidence of prolapse is pretty important.
> 
> Tubs are a matter of convenience. If cost, space & cleaning weren't an issue I can't see how any keeper would deny their animal more room.



if cost, space and cleaning are an issue then maybe some people should not own snakes. we all tell newbies if they can not afford an enclosure or do not have space and time not to buy reptiles. 

whats convenient to us is not always convenient to our reptiles.

i think all pythons have alot to gain from living in an enclosure that is more mentally and physically stimulating, so why deny it from them?


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## beastcreature (Feb 12, 2014)

saintanger said:


> if cost, space and cleaning are an issue then maybe some people should not own snakes. we all tell newbies if they can not afford an enclosure or do not have space and time not to buy reptiles.
> 
> whats convenient to us is not always convenient to our reptiles.
> 
> i think all pythons have alot to gain from living in an enclosure that is more mentally and physically stimulating, so why deny it from them?



A nice ideology but not at all easy to police.


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## Wing_Nut (Feb 13, 2014)

If your snake is pacing around the enclosure every night maybe there is a husbandry issue there to? Maybe it's the pretty substrate that is used to make the enclosure aesthetically pleasing that is causing the inhabitant discomfort. What about snakes who escape, or enclosures that are wonderful to look at, but given the chance the inhabitant will vacate end up in what we would consider a terrible place. And the prey we feed, sure if they were meant to have it, Mother Nature would have certainly provided them with it. The reality is that our captive snakes live in environments that's are entirely foreign, and at best, there is a lot of guess work involved in a large majority of conclusions drawn in this thread. Every method should be embraced, investigated, understood and applied as needed. 

What I find fascinating with this discussion is that the issue is so polarising. The reality is that every animal is different and there are many techniques that provide a good captive environment for our reptiles, and those who show such strong opposition to a housing technique and rule it out absolutely really are self serving idealists. More so those who would categorically discount the concept with no personal experience. 

In my experience, and I will use the adult imbricata I keep as example, six adults appear to thrive in large vivariums, and four have always struggled in anything but large tubs. I have never had a snake from hatchling to adult ever fail to thrive in a tub. In general I've found Antaresia really do well in tubs, better than any other enclosure. The rest I keep and maintain do well in a variety of enclosures. 

To answer the OP, in my experience the best practice is to see what your animals teach you and go with what works best for them and you, because at the end of the day, you take care of your animals and what you do must work for you. 

The activity levels of my reptiles seems to be affected mostly by feeding regime and the positioning of hides. 

Wing_Nut


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## andynic07 (Feb 13, 2014)

Wing_Nut said:


> If your snake is pacing around the enclosure every night maybe there is a husbandry issue there to? Maybe it's the pretty substrate that is used to make the enclosure aesthetically pleasing that is causing the inhabitant discomfort. What about snakes who escape, or enclosures that are wonderful to look at, but given the chance the inhabitant will vacate end up in what we would consider a terrible place. And the prey we feed, sure if they were meant to have it, Mother Nature would have certainly provided them with it. The reality is that our captive snakes live in environments that's are entirely foreign, and at best, there is a lot of guess work involved in a large majority of conclusions drawn in this thread. Every method should be embraced, investigated, understood and applied as needed.
> 
> What I find fascinating with this discussion is that the issue is so polarising. The reality is that every animal is different and there are many techniques that provide a good captive environment for our reptiles, and those who show such strong opposition to a housing technique and rule it out absolutely really are self serving idealists. More so those who would categorically discount the concept with no personal experience.
> 
> ...


I agree mostly with what you are saying apart for everyone being polarised. The part that I mostly agree with is the last sentence. I certainly do leave a while between feeds for all of my snakes to encourage hunting before their next feed as some snakes can be lazy. I more so brought this technique in since owning a GTP who are renewed for sitting in the one spot and then can develop what some regard as being caused by laziness "tail hanging" which my snake has yet displayed. I guess letting my snakes get to the stage that they hunt around at night for days or even a week looking for food may be considered cruel by some but I see it an important part of me keeping snakes and exercising them and feel that this is best carried out in an enclosure with more space and varying levels. I still think tubs can be used but somehow the snakes in my opinion should get some exercise. I also think racks are the preferred method for young snakes as it is a click clack container on a large scale. 

I also think that apart from the enrichment and movement that a tub is an ideal location for a snake as they usually find a hidden away location squashed into somewhere and feel safer where they are not out in the open.

I had never really thought about each snake being different and your story interests me but saying that I have found all of my snakes seem to me to be doing fine. They eat really well and have good muscle tone and as of yet in the 5 or so years of keeping have not needed a vet visit touch wood.


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## longqi (Feb 13, 2014)

Topic doesnt need to be polarising at all

Big breeders NEED to use small containers
That is the best thing for THEM
Economies of scale, disease control, labour input and space required makes small sterile containers the best option for them
Vast majority of their snakes are kept by them for the shortest possible time

Hobbyists were in a different game once
They kept a few snakes in displays
Most of the time the displays were to show off their pride and joys
Numbers of reptiles were limited because of spacial requirements

Now some hobbyists are simply copying what big breeders initiated
They use the FACT that big breeders do this to justify themselves doing it

Godwins Law is totally irrelevant in this particular case
POWs existed fed and bred
Those are facts that cannot be changed

Nearly every animal on Earth will breed in less than optimum conditions
That is because of a thing called Survival Instinct

Here is a simple question for anybody to answer
"If someone gave you $10.000.000 tomorrow would you accept it"
Conditions are
"From now on you can keep a maximum of 10 reptiles
Regardless of breeding that number cannot change except for a 3 month period while hatchlings or older snakes are sold"
Question is
"Would your 10 snakes be kept in the smallest possible containers??""


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## Wing_Nut (Feb 13, 2014)

The correlation between tubs and the smallest possible container in my opinion is a very narrow view on the issue. Not all tubs are the "smallest possible area" but because they can be orientated in a shelving type system they can allow relatively large floor space for the animals in a relative small space in your snake room. 

I certainly agree the game has changed, and the more the hobby grows the more it will continue to evolve and the more varied and refined approaches will become. 

Without a doubt I would accept $10 million, and I would keep my reptiles pretty much the same as I do.


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

longqi said:


> Topic doesnt need to be polarising at all
> 
> Godwins Law is totally irrelevant in this particular case
> POWs existed fed and bred
> Those are facts that cannot be changed


 [MENTION=20112]longqi[/MENTION]
I find myself usually agreeing with you and respect your experience and knowledge. But I find the whole POW comparison very odd.
Lets look at some of the FACTS of POW in WWII.

-Stalag 359B: An epidemic of dysentery led to the murder of some 6,000 Red Army prisoners between September 21–28, 1941 (3,261 of them on the first day), conducted by the notorious Police Battalion 306

-Stalag II-B: The construction of the second camp, Lager-Ost, started in June 1941 to accommodate the large numbers of Soviet prisoners taken in Operation Barbarossa. In November 1941 a typhoid fever epidemic broke out in the Lager-Ost; it lasted until March 1942 and an estimated 45,000 prisoners died and were buried in mass graves. The camp administration did not start any preventive measures until some German soldiers became infected.

Stalag III-C: In July 1941 Soviet prisoners captured during Operation Barbarossa arrived. They were held in separated facilities and suffered severe conditions and disease. The majority of the prisoners (up to 12,000) were killed, starved to death or died due to disease.

Stalag IV-B: In July about 11,000 Soviet soldiers, and some officers, arrived. By April 1942 only 3,279 remained; the rest had died from malnutrition and a typhus epidemic caused by the deplorable sanitary conditions. Their bodies were buried in mass graves. After April 1942 more Soviet prisoners arrived and died just as rapidly. At the end of 1942 10,000 reasonably healthy Soviet prisoners were transferred to Belgium to work in the coal mines; the rest, suffering from tuberculosis, continued to die at the rate 10-20 per day.

Stalag VI-K: Between 40,000 and 60,000 prisoners died, mostly buried in three mass graves. A Soviet war cemetery is still in existence, containing about 200 named graves.

Stalag VIII-E: The first Soviets arrived in July 1941; by June 1942 more than 100,000 prisoners were crowded into this camp. As a result of starvation and disease, mainly typhoid fever and tuberculosis, close to half of them died before the end of the war.

If snakes suffered from confined space just like humans the above would be true and your POW example would make sense. Though we don't see disease, starvation, malnutrition, bad sanitary conditions buy breeders and keepers using tubs. It would be bad business for breeders/farmers in particular would it not?

If we take our emotional response out of it, what are we really looking at in regards to tubs?

I think the hobby has progressed and while we enjoy seeing our display enclosures spread about our houses. We also enjoy our breeding projects, which require similar set up to commercial breeders to maintain hold backs and stock with traits that hobbyists are trying to line breed.
It would be fair to say we all keep for different reasons. The number one rule in all cases though is a healthy animal. It seems that animals being sold from farming facilities and animals kept in racks are indeed healthy.


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## critterguy (Feb 13, 2014)

If for sales and won't be in them long I agree with tubs, hence why I agreed with them for bubs, but if keeping a long time then displays or larger tubs with lids/a side modified with flyscreen so as they get natural light and better ventilation.


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## longqi (Feb 13, 2014)

This snake cannot even move properly
The depth of the container means it cannot even coil up if it wanted to

Perfect for a breeder
Good for a hobbyist who says they love snakes??


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

longqi said:


> This snake cannot even move properly
> The depth of the container means it cannot even coil up if it wanted to
> 
> Perfect for a breeder
> Good for a hobbyist who says they love snakes??



Are you saying hobbyists aren't allowed to breed and have breeding projects?


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## RedFox (Feb 13, 2014)

Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs. 

They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures. 

I've found that since keeping some of mine in tubs, it has become easier to hook my problem handlers out, and I have a few of those now, for an explore and exercise. This has made it much easier to check for possible health issue and check after shedding. 

If I had $10mill I would probably keep all my pythons in tubs much like the ones below, except for my favourite who would have a naturalistic enclosure built into a wall for my own pleasure, not his.


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## longqi (Feb 13, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Are you saying hobbyists aren't allowed to breed and have breeding projects?



No Snowman
I have never even suggested that
I would never suggest that

That photo was put on this thread
Then people tried to justify it
For big breeders/farmers there is NO justification needed because they have purely commercial enterprises

But for hobbyists who say they love snakes that comparatively tiny enclosure is too sterile and small for that snake

If its all a money game fair enough
Do your best to jam as many as you can into a small area

But for anyone who loves snakes they deserve
room to move within thermal gradients
at least one hide
water

In that photo and thousands of other photo from commercial breeders they have
no room to move
no hides


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## champagne (Feb 13, 2014)

RedFox said:


> Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs.
> 
> They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures.
> 
> ...



are womas an arboreal species? tubs have there place in the hobby and if sized correctly can provide excellent environment but who actually uses a 4ft x 2 ft x 2ft tub?


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## Luke_G (Feb 13, 2014)

RedFox said:


> Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs.
> 
> They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures.
> 
> ...





Where do you get the Handi Bin's from? or can you point me in the direction of the website. Thanks


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

longqi said:


> No Snowman
> I have never even suggested that
> I would never suggest that
> 
> ...



Yes I think common sense has to play a role too. I cant imagine putting a python or snake in a tub that wasn't adequately suited size wise to the occupant.
I think too many people who don't know what they are talking about post rubbish too though. Like the bloke that went through and deleted all his past posts when they were found to be full of erroneous anthropomorphic assumptions.


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## RedFox (Feb 13, 2014)

champagne said:


> snowman can you show me a tub adequate to house a fully grown coastal?



I'm not snowman but yes I can show you links to tubs. 



champagne said:


> are womas an arboreal species? tubs have there place in the hobby and if sized correctly can provide excellent environment but who actually uses a 4ft x 2 ft x 2ft tub?



I never said womas were aboreal, so I'm a bit confused as to how that is relevant??? In this thread I've only spoken about my personal experiences. 

To answer the second part, I don't know many people in the hobby so I can't answer for others but I personally would and that's why I added a pic of such a tub in answer to Longqi's question. 

I also posted those pics to show that keeping pythons in tubs doesn't have to mean a large animal being kept in a lunch box, like most of these posts have inferred. I agree that people do keep large animals in tubs that are IMO too small and have never said otherwise.




Luke_G said:


> Where do you get the Handi Bin's from? or can you point me in the direction of the website. Thanks



I'll send you a PM.


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## champagne (Feb 13, 2014)

RedFox said:


> I'm not snowman but yes I can show you links to tubs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you were going on about how you house womas in tubs and the main problem with tubs is they don't have enough height, so of course your womas will be fine in tubs....

- - - Updated - - -



Luke_G said:


> Where do you get the Handi Bin's from? or can you point me in the direction of the website. Thanks



Google 'the plastic man' ex large tubs


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## Luke_G (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks. I keep nearly 100% of my collection( Mostly Elapids) in tubs... I have found that as long as the snake can have privacy, access to thermal gradient and there cage kept hygenically clean ( easier to do in tubs) i have minimal to no health issues. I personally will always keep my animals in tubs as i believe its the best way to keep them. I dont usually comment on this site anymore as too many people have become experts owning a snake for only a few years. So i believe that everyone will have there own opinion regardless of the experience of others. 

Cheers Luke


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## andynic07 (Feb 13, 2014)

RedFox said:


> Just because an animal is in a tub doesn't mean it has less exercise than if it was kept in an enclosure. Based on my very limited experience I've found no difference in the amount of activity of my womas, since they have being in tubs.
> 
> They still display the same digging, active hunting, drinking, bowel movements, hiding, etc, as they did in enclosures.
> 
> ...


I think the concept that most people are against and definitely what I am referring to as not enough space for exercise is when the smaller space saving tubs are used, if the tub is roughly the same size as an enclosure then the point is mute and there is no difference. I do think that the intent of the discussion is the smaller breeding racks not the pull out enclosures that you use for your snakes. I would like to ask though would you use a tub half the size that you use?


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## RedFox (Feb 13, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> I think the concept that most people are against and definitely what I am referring to as not enough space for exercise is when the smaller space saving tubs are used, if the tub is roughly the same size as an enclosure then the point is mute and there is no difference. I do think that the intent of the discussion is the smaller breeding racks not the pull out enclosures that you use for your snakes. I would like to ask though would you use a tub half the size that you use?



My pythons are pets so I like keeping them in largish enclosures/tubs for my own enjoyment but if there are no health problem associated with keeping in smaller tubs than I wouldn't have a problem with others doing it. 

I believe health of my pets is the most important thing. If I was to keep them in smaller tubs and I noticed a lack of muscle tone, abnormal weight change, health problems, or a change in behaviour I would increase the size. To me that seems fairly common sense.


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

RedFox said:


> My pythons are pets so I like keeping them in largish enclosures/tubs for my own enjoyment but if there are no health problem associated with keeping in smaller tubs than I wouldn't have a problem with others doing it.
> 
> I believe health of my pets is the most important thing. If I was to keep them in smaller tubs and I noticed a lack of muscle tone, abnormal weight change, health problems, or a change in behaviour I would increase the size. To me that seems fairly common sense.



Exactly and that's what it is all about. I fail to see why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp?


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## Beans (Feb 13, 2014)

Here's some things to look for regarding this.

1: Is the animal happy?
2: Is it healthy with good muscle?
3: Is it feeding on a regular basis?
4 is it toileting on a regular (For a snake) basis?
5: Does it have adequate thermal gradients required for it's species?

At the end of the day those are the things that matter. Sure it might be happier in a larger enclosure, it would look better in it. But, that being said if it's happy and healthy being in a tub then the tub will be fine. 

After taking into account the animals well being it then comes down to personal preference. If you like being able to make the enclosure the center of a room, or you like to mimic it's natural environment then awesome. If you have a pretty large collection then tubs might be better


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## getarealdog (Feb 13, 2014)

Where can I get tubs this big? 




[/URL][/IMG]


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

getarealdog said:


> Where can I get tubs this big?
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]


You tell us!? You're the one who has those big green outdoor plastic tubs aren't you?


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## getarealdog (Feb 13, 2014)

Found 1



[/URL][/IMG]
Aquaculture tanks, could use water tanks cut in half, fruit bins?


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

Those things are awesome! Bet they aren't cheap, but great idea.


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## Amynickid (Feb 13, 2014)

i prefer displays, looks way better and provides the reptile with a ore natural and comfortable set up to call home. no one would want to be locked in a boring room their whole life.. so dont make any pet do the same. just bought a bigger display. will upload pics soon of setup


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## getarealdog (Feb 13, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Those things are awesome! Bet they aren't cheap, but great idea.



That 1's a 1500 litre, the 3000 litre 1's I think are around the $3k mark. To expensive to house a boring Tiger snake. (I have 4, swapped 2 black cockatoo's for them).


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## andynic07 (Feb 13, 2014)

A 3000 poly tank from Bunnings is only $700 and you could cut it in half to make two and then cut a panel out for the clear viewing part.


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## RedFox (Feb 13, 2014)

Amynickid said:


> i prefer displays, looks way better and provides the reptile with a ore natural and comfortable set up to call home. no one would want to be locked in a boring room their whole life.. so dont make any pet do the same. just bought a bigger display. will upload pics soon of setup



How is an enclosure more natural than a tub? 

I always like looking at people's setup so will look forward to your pics.


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## schoona (Feb 13, 2014)

Nobody buys a snake (even their first) to put it away in a tub. May as well throw it in the cutlery draw under the sink? You're spending good money on (hopefully) nice specimens, why not satisfy yourself and the snake by using a "proper" display. the stacked melamine units that could take 6-8 diamonds or carpets is surely plenty suitable for multiples of snakes, you can observe/check up on, they aren't that hard to keep clean and can provide all required to keep (water, hides, log for climbing, temp gradient) the snake happy (to a better degree) than a tub. 

I'm sure all the references to brian are correct, but if that retic wants to sit in its hide for 6 months and not come out, it can. If it wants to come out, stretch itself, coil up or anything other than just lay there, it would have the option to if in a thought out enclosure. 

The reference to brian is pretty irrelevant especially using those big snakes. we dont get them here (anything that size really) so the justification for people with "a couple of woma's" or a "couple of jungles" is a cop out really? If you didn't have a 20m2 area for a retic and used a tub, can kind of understand (but then why acquire a retic to put away for 23 hours 45 minutes a day). a couple of m2 of floor space to appreciate woma's/carpets/jungles/BHP's...well thats something you have to afford as well.


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

schoona said:


> Nobody buys a snake (even their first) to put it away in a tub. May as well throw it in the cutlery draw under the sink? You're spending good money on (hopefully) nice specimens, why not satisfy yourself and the snake by using a "proper" display. the stacked melamine units that could take 6-8 diamonds or carpets is surely plenty suitable for multiples of snakes, you can observe/check up on, they aren't that hard to keep clean and can provide all required to keep (water, hides, log for climbing, temp gradient) the snake happy (to a better degree) than a tub.
> 
> I'm sure all the references to brian are correct, but if that retic wants to sit in its hide for 6 months and not come out, it can. If it wants to come out, stretch itself, coil up or anything other than just lay there, it would have the option to if in a thought out enclosure.
> 
> The reference to brian is pretty irrelevant especially using those big snakes. we dont get them here (anything that size really) so the justification for people with "a couple of woma's" or a "couple of jungles" is a cop out really? If you didn't have a 20m2 area for a retic and used a tub, can kind of understand (but then why acquire a retic to put away for 23 hours 45 minutes a day). a couple of m2 of floor space to appreciate woma's/carpets/jungles/BHP's...well thats something you have to afford as well.



Everyone has different reasons for keeping snakes. I think that is the first thing we have to acknowledge when looking at housing for snakes.

I use mostly enclosures, but I'm breeding imbricata that most of Australia has not had much to do with. We have started with wild animals and each clutch we get 15-25 eggs. From those even in the first generation of captive bred we are seeing some reduced patterns and strange patterns etc. So we get a lot of hold backs that we intend to grow to adults and breed with each other and back to the parents with the goal of producing non hybrids that are very interesting visually... (I'm sure with time the imbricata of WA will see similar patterns and results of generations of line breeding the other MS sub species over east and around the world). A few generations of line breeding and you just don't have enough space to house all of them in display type enclosures. And to be honest what is the point if you feel tubs are adequate and you are using adequate size tubs. 

I'm guessing there are thousands of Australians now who are into line breeding as a hobby and are keeping hold backs and are starting to use set ups that have been proven to work.

People will do the same with stimi's, womas etc etc.... 

Sure some people are content just to have 10-20 adult snakes. Other people are working on something bigger with a goal in mind and want to keep many more snakes. If you think keeping a snake in a box with a window is rewarding that's fine. Others find breeding, keeping and maintaining a large collection with the goal producing something different equally as rewarding.

Like @RedFox said she gets as much enjoyment using tubs as she did with displays. And she has noted no difference in their well being or behaviour. She does however get more time to have them out and about which is always the fun part of playing with our pets.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I was the one who mentioned snake bytes. Not for the species they keep, but rather the way the keep them and the size of tubs available. *I thought that was obvious from my wording, but I guess not.


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## schoona (Feb 13, 2014)

Good points in there

I interpreted (it's the internet remember) it in a way of "Brian uses them so they must be fine for me" kind of idea. Which is why I noted out his collection is vastly different (obviously a building dedicated to the "hobby" and also the types he is keeping (big things like a retic). If you have a few adult snakes, thats a very different situation and as such think they should be in an "enclosure" (something more advanced than moulded PVC).

As a development from your point, the "interest" and "reward" in the hobby for you is the up and coming differences with your MS, why hide these "new and interesting" products away in a tub. Years and years of line breeding stashed in a tub doesn't make sense? 

Sure the intricacies of larger collections may require the use of tubs to a degree, but over the lifetime of the snake, surely there is a better option. You're only holding back for a year or 2 to strengthen the bloodline then moving them on? I guess in a "rotation" there will always be a new lot of holdbacks which means the tubs will always be filled? 

But yeah....seems like a waste to have an "impressive" snake (subjective), stashed in a tub. May as well have a rubber snake too


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## Amynickid (Feb 13, 2014)

you can set a enclosure up more naturally than a tub.. common sense says that


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## saximus (Feb 13, 2014)

Amynickid said:


> you can set a enclosure up more naturally than a tub.. common sense says that



Why does common sense say that? Some natural substrate and a couple of fake branches aren't repelled by plastic


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## Snowman (Feb 13, 2014)

schoona said:


> Good points in there
> 
> I interpreted (it's the internet remember) it in a way of "Brian uses them so they must be fine for me" kind of idea. Which is why I noted out his collection is vastly different (obviously a building dedicated to the "hobby" and also the types he is keeping (big things like a retic). If you have a few adult snakes, thats a very different situation and as such think they should be in an "enclosure" (something more advanced than moulded PVC).
> 
> ...




answered above in green.

- - - Updated - - -



Amynickid said:


> you can set a enclosure up more naturally than a tub.. common sense says that



There is nothing natural about a wooden box and glass. Even a dead branch or substrate. If you want to go natural then the wild is the only place for your critters.

Sure to a "human" it may appear to look natural. But fake leaves and substrates that are made from trees are not part of their natural environment. People make very pretty enclosures that are very visually appealing to humans. But to the snake there is no difference if he has a card board box or a hide that looks like a rock.


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## longqi (Feb 14, 2014)

If you look at some plastic containers they have been set up just as well as any vivarium

It could be the most expensive fibreglass and lexon vivarium ever made and still be too small for a particular snake

If you read my replies in this thread I always say container rather than tub rub or lunch box
Because the construction material of that container doesnt matter

This is definitely a case of size does matter

quote snowman] But to the snake there is no difference if he has a card board box or a hide that looks like a rock.[unquote]

Totally agree so long as there is a hide for most species
Pity snakebytes dont see it the same way


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## Barrett (Feb 14, 2014)

Trimeresurus said:


> Keep elapids if you want something fun.



My elapid (devis banded snake) is lazier than my pythons. I find that my woma will spend a lot of time moving around her enclosure, My darwin rarely moves around his enclosure, and my jungle spends a lotof her time on her perch, moving around here and there.


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## champagne (Feb 14, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Those things are awesome! Bet they aren't cheap, but great idea.



No sorry mate... Still not high enough IMO, how much experience do you have keeping coastals in WA? Maybe just comment on reptiles you actually keep?

- - - Updated - - -

IMO if the snake needs to be removed for "exercise" then the cage is too small, unfortunately the hobby has changed and it's moving more towards breeding the latest morph.


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## Snowman (Feb 14, 2014)

champagne said:


> No sorry mate... Still not high enough IMO, how much experience do you have keeping coastals in WA? Maybe just comment on reptiles you actually keep?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> IMO if the snake needs to be removed for "exercise" then the cage is too small, unfortunately the hobby has changed and it's moving more towards breeding the latest morph.


Probably a lot more than you by the sounds of it. I'm Victorian and lived in NSW as well. Still not sure why you are bangin on about coastals. Be good to see a picture of your coastal enclosure though. I'm kind of curious as to how much room you think they need. I keep an olive in an indoor aviary. But that's for my own viewing more than the snake. I think like most, you'll move to elapids when you get older or at least something interesting. It's alright, we're all at different levels and there's nothing wrong with that. As long as you keep learning.
Just remember the secret to life is not to worry what your neighbor is doing. Just worry about yourself 

- - - Updated - - -



longqi said:


> I
> quote snowman] But to the snake there is no difference if he has a card board box or a hide that looks like a rock.[unquote]
> 
> Totally agree so long as there is a hide for most species
> Pity snakebytes dont see it the same way


Yep, can't say I agree with the way they do somethings. I only brought them up due to the size of tubs they have. And their success with keeping and breeding using tubs. 
Ive found some wild caught carpets can be a pain to feed in vivs but will eat when I move them to tubs. I'm not sure why this is, but I'm leaning more towards stress and they feel more secure in large tubs. Eventually I've been able to move them to enclosures with a bit of time and patience and keep them feeding. A wild olive juvie I have was the same. And a wild night tiger was the opposite... I think experimenting, learning about and understanding these animals is the best part of keeping.


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## champagne (Feb 14, 2014)

Don't really see why people keep referring to BHB reptiles? they keep very few australian reptiles and therefore can't really base the way they "successfully" keep exotic pythons to the how appropriate tubs are for australian reptiles. They don't provide hot spots only room heating, no hides, water bowls are too small to allow the animal to fully submerge if wanted, no climbing fixtures. I really see that the way the house their snake as very basic and not providing the best possible housing within reason but bare minimum standards, which is really just intensive snake farming.


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## SouthSydney (Feb 14, 2014)

Where do the anti rack/tub brigade draw the line? The vast majority of snakes bred and sold in this hobby come from breeders using racks and tubs. If they believe its cruel or an unsatisfactory way to keep snakes, like it seems a lot of them do, do they (anti rack/tub mob) refuse to buy reptiles bred in these set ups? Just curious as to how they keep their conscience clean. Its a funny situation that is similar to all the people who shout and scream about smuggled reptiles or poachers, yet most of their collection originates from these people or animals.


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## Boiga (Feb 14, 2014)

I use both tubs and enclosures and see the benefit and drawbacks with both.
A lot of people here seem to be generalising about their own misconceptions of what an enclosure or tub rack are, not all enclosures are naturalistic and not all tubs are baron. On that point I find the argument of natural type enclosures void, that is of course unless you grow living plants from the same endemic region of the snake in question, stimulate rainfall, provide multitudes of different hides etc. 
You can hang as many fake vines in your enclosure as you like but it will not be naturalistic if it's in a melamine box with newspaper as substrate.

Personally all of my adult and juvenile Antaresia are kept in tub racks as are my younger Morelia and small elapids because they don't need anything else. My adult diamonds are kept in large aviaries which allow them to bask in full sun, partial sun or in complete darkness (They are endemic to my region). My other adult morelia are kept in large melamine enclosures which have simple newspaper substrate, a heat tile, water bowl, hide and climbing branch. My colubrids are kept in large melamine enclosures with live plants, grasses and natural logs. My boyds and angleheads are kept in large melamine enclosures with live plants, climbing branches, automatic misters. 

My point is that just because I use tub racks doesn't mean I am lazy or don't care about the animal, it means I understand what they need and their husbandry requirements. Sticking a few decorations or rock wall in an enclosure doesn't make the enclosure adequate, understanding the animals you are keeping does.


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## jacorin (Feb 14, 2014)

for the TUB users.

Do what is right for you,
as you will be criticized regardless.


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## champagne (Feb 14, 2014)

SouthSydney said:


> Where do the anti rack/tub brigade draw the line? The vast majority of snakes bred and sold in this hobby come from breeders using racks and tubs. If they believe its cruel or an unsatisfactory way to keep snakes, like it seems a lot of them do, do they (anti rack/tub mob) refuse to buy reptiles bred in these set ups? Just curious as to how they keep their conscience clean. Its a funny situation that is similar to all the people who shout and scream about smuggled reptiles or poachers, yet most of their collection originates from these people or animals.



Who has said they are anti tubs? Everyone has said that tubs have there place and are even better to use in some cases ie hatchlings, yearlings. The problem is when people use undersized tubs that don't provide the basic requirements for that species.

- - - Updated - - -



Boiga said:


> I use both tubs and enclosures and see the benefit and drawbacks with both.
> A lot of people here seem to be generalising about their own misconceptions of what an enclosure or tub rack are, not all enclosures are naturalistic and not all tubs are baron. On that point I find the argument of natural type enclosures void, that is of course unless you grow living plants from the same endemic region of the snake in question, stimulate rainfall, provide multitudes of different hides etc.
> You can hang as many fake vines in your enclosure as you like but it will not be naturalistic if it's in a melamine box with newspaper as substrate.
> 
> ...



And if you read the thread, everyone is say what you do is correct. The problem is when people put larger adult snakes in undersized tubs that don't provide basic requirements. Why don't you keep your adult morelia's in tubs? Snakebytes do and apparently they are the experts...


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## Boiga (Feb 14, 2014)

champagne said:


> Who has said they are anti tubs? Everyone has said that tubs have there place and are even better to use in some cases ie hatchlings, yearlings. The problem is when people use undersized tubs that don't provide the basic requirements for that species.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



I think you need to reread a few comments on here regarding tubs.


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## jbest (Feb 14, 2014)

I had some in bigger tubs. Super convenient but I cant stand not being able to see them all the time and watch them so new enclosures in progress.


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## getarealdog (Feb 15, 2014)

Amynickid said:


> you can set a enclosure up more naturally than a tub.. common sense says that



There's always an exception, kinda natural looking. These tubs are 2.1 square & 900m high.




[/URL][/IMG]



[/URL][/IMG]



[/URL][/IMG]



[/URL][/IMG]


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## andynic07 (Feb 15, 2014)

Very good setups [MENTION=15646]getarealdog[/MENTION] but I think I would more class them as pits rather than tubs. Saying that the same principle could be used on a smaller scale for a tub. I think whether you have a pit or tub or enclosure they are all used to contain a reptile into a certain area for keeping purposes. Each type of containment can be either too small , the right size or larger than required for certain species and they all can be plain or decorated to simulate nature and it is the choice of the keeper which of these they use and how much decor that is used and as long as the reptile is healthy then I can't see a problem.


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## Snowman (Feb 15, 2014)

getarealdog said:


> There's always an exception, kinda natural looking. These tubs are 2.1 square & 900m high.
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]r[/IMG]



Do you need extra heating for basking under the patio for your tigers or are they fine without it?


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## getarealdog (Feb 15, 2014)

1 15 watt 4 meter heat cord running through 2 30cm tiles, 1 in the hide & 1 outside, no thermo, on timer.


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## Snowman (Feb 15, 2014)

getarealdog said:


> 1 15 watt 4 meter heat cord running through 2 30cm tiles, 1 in the hide & 1 outside, no thermo, on timer.


Awesome. It's inspiring to see someone thinking out side the box (excuse the pun) and coming up with some great and simple ideas.


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## getarealdog (Feb 15, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> Very good setups @getarealdog but I think I would more class them as pits rather than tubs.
> 
> Oh no I also have pits ha ha.
> 
> ...


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## andynic07 (Feb 15, 2014)

I guess the point being is whatever choice of snake containment you choose it needs to be suitable and functional for you reptile. Very nice setups by the way.


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## zulu (Feb 19, 2014)

I have both tubs and cages ,few large cages empty ,find many do better in smaller tubs ,they feel secure.


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## Boiga (Feb 19, 2014)

getarealdog said:


> andynic07 said:
> 
> 
> > Very good setups @getarealdog but I think I would more class them as pits rather than tubs.
> ...


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## NickGeee (Feb 19, 2014)

If only I had the money for displays...


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## schoona (Mar 2, 2014)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1/1797455_10203196854302510_1490425375_n.jpg

My reasoning for display. They have no hope of climbing etc in a plastic tub


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