# Albinos are Weaker?



## Yellowtail (Nov 1, 2017)

I notice this every year when I have clutches of albino and het Darwins and just reminded with a new clutch just hatching this morning.
They all hatch ok and grow the same but the hets are mostly first out of their eggs and initially more aggressive feeders. I have clutches from different parents and result is the same.
Anyone having the same experience?




6 of first 8 out are hets



Last out are mostly albinos including top eggs


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## Bl69aze (Nov 1, 2017)

Very interesting observation

I’ll be sure to ask people I know if they notice anything similar!


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## kittycat17 (Nov 1, 2017)

No idea yellowtail but I may be interested in an albino [emoji7][emoji7]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Lazreilly (Nov 1, 2017)

Cant say i know too much about hatching rates and clutches but in my limited experience i have definitely noticed the hets are way better feeders and no where as tempermental as there albino siblings .


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## Nero Egernia (Nov 1, 2017)

Yes, albinos are weaker. All species that display albinism are known for their poor vision and sensitivity to UVA and UVB. Albinism has also been known to reduce fertility. Such symptoms are particularly disastrous to species that require sunlight to function, as well as being a disadvantage to species that rely on vision to feed. That is, of course, if they haven't already been snatched up by a predator because of their bright conspicuous colouring. All of this classes as weakness to me. It's less noticeable in nocturnal animals such as pythons. They don't require sunlight to survive and they mainly hunt with scent and heat signature. I don't keep albinos and never will. I can see why some people like them, however.


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## Yellowtail (Nov 1, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Yes, albinos are weaker. All species that display albinism are known for their poor vision and sensitivity to UVA and UVB. Albinism has also been known to reduce fertility. Such symptoms are particularly disastrous to species that require sunlight to function, as well as being a disadvantage to species that rely on vision to feed. That is, of course, if they haven't already been snatched up by a predator because of their bright conspicuous colouring. All of this classes as weakness to me. It's less noticeable in nocturnal animals such as pythons. They don't require sunlight to survive and they mainly hunt with scent and heat signature. I don't keep albinos and never will. I can see why some people like them, however.



Oshkii I understand all that but but why does albinism effect "hard wired" instincts like exiting from the egg quickly to avoid predators and reduced feeding response as hatchlings? Despite all the natural disadvantages of albinism there are also many examples of wild albino elapids that have survived to adult age, albino tiger snakes have been found in Victoria and I personally had an albino dugite that Harry Butler loaned me for a wild life show.

Last lot to come out all albinos


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## pinefamily (Nov 1, 2017)

Lazreilly said:


> Cant say i know too much about hatching rates and clutches but in my limited experience i have definitely noticed the hets are way better feeders and no where as tempermental as there albino siblings .


We've never bred Darwins, so I can't comment on Yellowtail's question. However, from our experience (2 hets, 3 albinos)it's been almost the opposite. The 2 hets were problem feeders, and two of the three albions were/are great to feed. The other one was too nosy, and would eat its food later, if at all.


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## Nero Egernia (Nov 1, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> Oshkii I understand all that but but why does albinism effect "hard wired" instincts like exiting from the egg quickly to avoid predators and reduced feeding response as hatchlings?



I'm not sure, Yellowtail. Perhaps remaining in the egg longer may be perceived as the safer option. With their impaired vision they may feel less secure in comparison to their heterozygous siblings. Perhaps lighting outside the egg may be too harsh for their eyes. In regards to feeding, vision may be important when first recognizing food. They may have yet to learn the scent to distinguish between prey and predator. Young pythons in the wild generally feed on small frogs and lizards. Heat signature would be of little use when preying on ectotherms. Have you observed anything else with your hatchlings?



Yellowtail said:


> Despite all the natural disadvantages of albinism there are also many examples of wild albino elapids that have survived to adult age, albino tiger snakes have been found in Victoria and I personally had an albino dugite that Harry Butler loaned me for a wild life show.



The odd albino that has lived to adulthood means very little. Show me an established population of albinos that have survived without human intervention, and I may believe otherwise. Having the right tools (adaptions) helps. Luck, however, can make all the difference between life and death in the wild.


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## Yellowtail (Nov 1, 2017)

The albinos are often shy and insecure as babies but once they start feeding they behave the same as the hets. They definitely pick up the heat, show no interest in mice that are too cold. Ectotherms still thermoregulate to keep their temperature up to the level required for activity and digestion but would be lost in the normal background heat in a Northern Australian summer so other senses must come into play.
My incubators are in a low light room and they mostly hatch at night so I don't think harsh light vision is an issue. I incubate the eggs in clumps and the hatchlings pick up the scent of their hatching siblings. The albinos cut their eggs and have a look out but stay in the egg till most of the hets are out so it may be a security thing.
There is evidence that discarded pet albino Burmese have been breeding in the Florida Everglades, probably from het/het pairings.
The reason I raised the point about wild albino elapids is they are hunters and not necessarily nocturnal.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 2, 2017)

@Yellowtail have u noticed this when u cut a hole in the egg aswell? Some people I talked to cut holes to help and others don’t.


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## Yellowtail (Nov 2, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> @Yellowtail have u noticed this when u cut a hole in the egg aswell? Some people I talked to cut holes to help and others don’t.



I never need to pip any eggs, when you leave them in a clump and at the right temp they go full term and naturally cut a hole themselves, never have a problem. When it is an all albino clutch you don't notice any difference, its just when you have half a clutch of hets the difference is obvious, it's not that they can't get out they cut a hole and wait a while. You can see the cuts in the photos.


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## Lazreilly (Nov 2, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> We've never bred Darwins, so I can't comment on Yellowtail's question. However, from our experience (2 hets, 3 albinos)it's been almost the opposite. The 2 hets were problem feeders, and two of the three albions were/are great to feed. The other one was too nosy, and would eat its food later, if at all.


Interesting .. to be fair the albinos i have and the het i have are from different people but when i got the albinos the breeder said he had more trouble getting the albinos going compared to the hets from the same clutch and the hets i handled were much more confident ...


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## Nero Egernia (Nov 2, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> The albinos are often shy and insecure as babies but once they start feeding they behave the same as the hets. They definitely pick up the heat, show no interest in mice that are too cold. Ectotherms still thermoregulate to keep their temperature up to the level required for activity and digestion but would be lost in the normal background heat in a Northern Australian summer so other senses must come into play.



So hatchling albinos start off shyer than their het siblings? That could possibly be a reason why they choose to remain in the egg. More input from other albino breeders would help.



Yellowtail said:


> There is evidence that discarded pet albino Burmese have been breeding in the Florida Everglades, probably from het/het pairings.



Ah, but that is still classified as human intervention.



Yellowtail said:


> The reason I raised the point about wild albino elapids is they are hunters and not necessarily nocturnal.



Elapids can be nocturnal hunters. Island populations of Tiger Snakes prove that they don't even need eyes to acquire their food. Most individuals have been permanently blinded by seabirds defending their chicks from predation. A lucky albino Tiger Snake would most likely alter it's behaviour to only hunt at night, or otherwise remain in the shadows during daylight hours.


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## Genetix (Nov 12, 2017)

It is a recessive gene, Being that evolution has sorted it into that pile says that albinos are not the fittest compared to creatures carrying dominant genes.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Nov 12, 2017)

so albinos are not fit compared to jags??


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## Genetix (Nov 12, 2017)

the Jag gene is Co-Dom from what i understand where albinism is recessive. A visual Albino would be genetically weaker naturally.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Nov 12, 2017)

No jags carry dominant genes so I was amused to read that albinos are not the fittest compared to them. It was knee jerk comment


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## Genetix (Nov 12, 2017)

Thanks for the insight Prof_Moreliarty, After reading more into it i now understand why jags don't carry any dominant genes even though its a Co-Dom trait. Lesson learnt


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## Yellowtail (Nov 23, 2017)

More to support the theory, this lot just hatched today and first heads out were albinos but first to leave the eggs were 2 hets, a lot of albinos still just looking, they'll all be out overnight but this happens with every albino/het clutch.





Most were out this morning, hets most active looking to escape while albinos passive.




Exploring new home



Adventurous Het, amazing how capable they are when just hours old.



This latest clutch just set a record for me from an albino/het mating, *17 eggs, 11 Albinos and only 6 hets,* I kept looking and expecting more hets but albinos kept coming out.
Has anyone had a better hatch ratio of albinos/hets. Last season I had one clutch 9 hets/7 albinos and it usually is one extra either way, you hope more albinos.
I had 9 albinos/7 hets from an earlier clutch this season and thought that was lucky. Both clutches were from young first time females with the same Sire.
Not sure of the science at work here but approx 50/50 is the theory.

Sorry must be getting tired, made an error there it was 17 eggs,11 albinos/6 hets. 
Just edited post.


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## pinefamily (Nov 24, 2017)

That's a good strike rate!


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## Yellowtail (Dec 11, 2017)

Just to show that adult albino Darwins are good feeders?


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## Bl69aze (Dec 12, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> Just to show that adult albino Darwins are good feeders?



What a crazy snake


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## Yellowtail (Dec 12, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> What a crazy snake


That was mild, he's been eating a 250gm rat a week since I increased his temps in October, you should see him go when he's hungry.
Tame as when no food around, I had just put fresh newspaper down for the video and just pushed him out of the way.


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