# Who Would Like to Buy an Oenpelli Python?



## The Reptile Outlet (Sep 27, 2011)

Who Would Like to Buy an Oenpelli Python?  

That's the subject of Dr Gavin Bedford's talk for our Scales & Tails Reptile Festival on November 12th. I've been chatting with Gavin over the last couple of days about our Festival and the subject of his talk and it's going to be fabulous! He'll be taking us all on the journey that he's been on for the last ten years as he's endeavoured to bring this python into captivity. A journey that is nearly at completition! 

If you've ever contemplated owning an Oenpelli, then this is a 'must hear' talk for you. Come along, meet Gavin for yourself, and find out from the man himself how close this is now to being a reality.

See you at the Festival! 

Cheers
Joy

PS...... We have other fabulous speakers lined up as well: Bob Irwin, Neville Burns, & Scott Eipper....... It's going to be great to hear the wealth of knowledge from these men


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## jedi_339 (Sep 27, 2011)

Where is the festival being held?


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## FAY (Sep 27, 2011)

The festival sounds like it will be a fantastic day Joy.Sounds like you will have a great line up of speakers as well. Neville and Gavin are very nice fellas (haven't met the other two). Yes, I would love to own an oenpelli. lol


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## Scleropages (Sep 27, 2011)

Can I have an oenpelli python for free?


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## FAY (Sep 27, 2011)

Scleropages said:


> Can I have an oenpelli python for free?



haha I am sure only the ones with plenty of dough will be getting them. I will have one for free as well. Whoever came up with the saying 'Money doesn't make you happy' is full of it lol


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## fugawi (Sep 27, 2011)

Wasn't it Gavin Bedford that had the albino Olives at $100,000 each? If so I fear they will be too expensive for anyone but the Murdochs or Packers. I'd love one but I think I'll have to wait about 10 yrs for them to become even slightly affordable.:cry: (Apologies to Gavin if it wasn't him)


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## Khagan (Sep 27, 2011)

Would i like to buy one? Yes. Would i ever have the money for one? No XD.


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## The Reptile Outlet (Sep 27, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Wasn't it Gavin Bedford that had the albino Olives at $100,000 each? If so I fear they will be too expensive for anyone but the Murdochs or Packers. I'd love one but I think I'll have to wait about 10 yrs for them to become even slightly affordable.:cry: (Apologies to Gavin if it wasn't him)



I don't know about the Olives, but from what Gavin has told me, the Oenpelli's will be very reasonably priced when they become available....... Personally, I can't wait. I'm sure that Gavin will reveal all in his talk.


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## elogov (Sep 27, 2011)

My biggest concern is the amount of people who will go out & buy it just for the sake of owning a rare animal, Although i remain optimistic.


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## Waterrat (Sep 27, 2011)

It's not that there is going to be a couple hundred of them for sale. I trust Gavin will be selective to whom to sell ...... when it comes to it.


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## Scleropages (Sep 27, 2011)

Ugh.. I want one!.. they look like a giant childrens python! - I hope they are less bitey than scrubbys!


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## -Katana- (Sep 27, 2011)

Could you ask him how the Granite Olive project is coming along please?

There's an animal I wouldn't mind getting my grubby little hands on if he's had success breeding the morph.


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## The Reptile Outlet (Sep 27, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> It's not that there is going to be a couple hundred of them for sale. I trust Gavin will be selective to whom to sell ...... when it comes to it.



Totally agree Michael


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## snakelady96 (Sep 27, 2011)

I would love to own one! They are beautiful animals, i hope when they come out like Michael said, he will be careful to whom he sells them to.


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## fugawi (Sep 27, 2011)

I personally think we have a great opportunity to do this properly. Maybe have the local Arnhem Land Government set up a research and breeding station, manned by the local Aboriginals and overseen by a university for the study and breeding of them. They could set up a self sustaining business breeding them for restocking the wild population and the hobby. They need to keep track of every single animal with certificates showing lineage and with microchipping. Anyone breeding them should pay for a separate license to the Breeding and Research station for certification and lineage so that they can keep track of all pythons born, bought and sold. I don't think they should be handed over to a big business purely for the profit. This way the locals can keep track and control of their sacred python. What do you think???


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## r3ptilian (Sep 27, 2011)

jedi_339 said:


> Where is the festival being held?


+1


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 27, 2011)

Jumping the gun a bit I think... to be talking prices at this stage is very premature. Like the albino Olives, they'll be out of all but the richest keepers' reach for a decade or more. There won't be any bargains anytime soon.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Sep 27, 2011)

Yah, don't be fooled by the catchy title of Gavin's talk.


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## Scleropages (Sep 27, 2011)

Well at least he will be talking about it and it wont just be random stuff on the net.


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## The Reptile Outlet (Sep 27, 2011)

jedi_339 said:


> Where is the festival being held?



Ipswich Showgrounds, Warwick Road, Ipswich. 
Saturday, November 12th
9.00am - 4.00pm (for stall holders) ........ live entertainment continues until 8.00pm (stall holders shut at 4.00)

Phone: (07) 3389 8275 for more details or visit our website: Scales & Tails Australia - The premier resource for Reptiles and Australia.



Scleropages said:


> Well at least he will be talking about it and it wont just be random stuff on the net.



Absolutely...... We'll all hear it direct from the man himself.....


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## D3pro (Sep 27, 2011)

Joy from S & T said:


> Ipswich Showgrounds, Warwick Road, Ipswich.
> Saturday, November 12th
> 9.00am - 4.00pm (for stall holders) ........ live entertainment continues until 8.00pm (stall holders shut at 4.00)
> 
> Phone: (07) 3389 8275 for more details or visit our website: Scales & Tails Australia - The premier resource for Reptiles and Australia.



I'll be there.
Will Eugene Harpsnake be playing?


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## waruikazi (Nov 19, 2011)

How did the talk go? Did Gavin have much to say?


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## wokka (Nov 19, 2011)

I think the deal is that not only can you have a chance of the treasure but you can also participate in the treasure hunt!


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## waruikazi (Nov 19, 2011)

So if you find one it's free? Isn't that called poaching


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## longqi (Nov 19, 2011)

Not sure if I would want one?
Dont have the iridescence of the scrubbies
Pretty ordinary looking in my humble opinion


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## waruikazi (Nov 19, 2011)

Have you seen a live one? They might be shiny??



longqi said:


> Not sure if I would want one?
> Dont have the iridescence of the scrubbies
> Pretty ordinary looking in my humble opinion


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## longqi (Nov 19, 2011)

Yes I was lucky enough to see 2 live wild ones
Reasonably shiny but without the 'glaze' that gave amethystine its original name 

We have a very similar but smaller one in Indo called a timorensis
Virtually identical except for size

As a demonstration snake they would draw crowds
But not as many as say an albino darwin

So how many potential owners want them because of novelty/new factor
How many really love the look of them?


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## wokka (Nov 19, 2011)

I think one of the main aims is to find them before the cane toads do. Apparently many animals are falling victim to the migration of the toad. Have you found that Gordo?


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## Jeffa (Nov 19, 2011)

Agree Longqi, they look like an overgrown childrens.
As long as there is a programn set in place to ensure the survival of the species than I am happy. 
It seems that the whole "gotta have one because they are rare and therefore have a good price tag" draws people in. 
Some people should not be in this hobby if they do not appreciate an animal for what they are as opposed how rare the species or trait, some people forgot why they got into this hobby in the first place.


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## longqi (Nov 19, 2011)

When I first started I bought all kinds of slitherers
One of my favourites was a badly burnt Red belly rescued from the big fires in the 1980s
NPWS let me keep it because it was nearly dead
Wonderful wonderful snake that I used in free handling demos for years
Then I bought a Death adder and a Taipan
Too bloody scared to handle them so they just lay in their vivs
Sold them when I realised I bought them for the wrong reasons

Now I only buy snakes that give me the right vibes


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## kkjkdt1 (Nov 19, 2011)

longqi said:


> Not sure if I would want one?
> Dont have the iridescence of the scrubbies
> Pretty ordinary looking in my humble opinion



Totally agree.
But would be great to see them in the wild.


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## Trench (Nov 19, 2011)

I would like one if I could afford it  I don't see anything wrong with keeping something rare, I like to have something that is not kept by every 2nd Tom and Harry in the hobby


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## Jeffa (Nov 19, 2011)

Trench said:


> I would like one if I could afford it  I don't see anything wrong with keeping something rare, I like to have something that is not kept by every 2nd Tom and Harry in the hobby


Agree, as long as you are appreciating the animal for what they are, not the price. What happened to Dick?


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## reptilian1924 (Nov 19, 2011)

l to would never ever want to own a Oenpelli Python, to me they just look like a large Childrens Python, l know they can change color to control their body temperature.

And l don't see anything special about these large Python's, who would want one just because they are so rare in captivity, and have to pay very high price for one not me.

l Remember way back in the early days when Woma Python's were just starting to become available in the pet trade, Peter Krauss from Nth Qlds said to me l better start saving my money if l want to buy a Woma Python, l ask him at the time what are they worth and he said $4000 each, then l said to him l will wait to they come down in price, you can now buy a Woma for as little as $150-00 a hatchling today, so l am now glad l did not buy a Woma when l was first told about them.

The same thing will happen in time with Oenpelli Python's, once they become more common in the pet trade they to will drop in price and be far more cheaper to buy so be patient and save your money just like l have.

l would much prefer to keep a Albino or pure Olive Python's, than a Oenpelli Python no matter how much they cost at the time, each to their own in what ever they want to keep.


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## Jay84 (Nov 19, 2011)

longqi said:


> So how many potential owners want them because of novelty/new factor
> How many really love the look of them?





Jeffa said:


> Agree Longqi, they look like an overgrown childrens.
> 
> It seems that the whole "gotta have one because they are rare and therefore have a good price tag" draws people in.
> Some people should not be in this hobby if they do not appreciate an animal for what they are as opposed how rare the species or trait, some people forgot why they got into this hobby in the first place.



Wow, how quick some members are to shoot others down again lol

So..... consider this....... they are like a large childrens pythons........ how many thousands of keepers in Australia keep, or have kept childreni? So these 'drab' snakes appeal to keepers, so why not a larger 'drab' snake??


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## Jeffa (Nov 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Wow, how quick some members are to shoot others down again lol
> 
> So..... consider this....... they are like a large childrens pythons........ how many thousands of keepers in Australia keep, or have kept childreni? So these 'drab' snakes appeal to keepers, so why not a larger 'drab' snake??



Why not. I agree. As long as it is for the survival and protection of the species and not for the novely factor of "I gotta have one cause they are rare" Jay, I thought you would be all for the ultimate protection of the species first and formost. Everything else can wait.


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## Jay84 (Nov 19, 2011)

I think we can all assume that everyone on this site would be all for the protection of the species.

It just seems that as soon as some say they would love to own one, the opinion of ''people only want them because they are rare'' is voiced. Because they are drab snakes. Well so are many of the snakes we keep (well not me, i have pretty snakes hehehe).


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## wokka (Nov 19, 2011)

It is likely to be a long time until "people on this site" can own one, however the opportunity does exist for keepers to contribute to the hunt so as to allow the animals to be bought into captivity for the perpetuation of the species. Gavin said in his talk that he had spent 300 hours looking unsucessfully for Oepellis. His slide show included pics of helicopters as part of the discovery process which can incurr considerable cost.


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## cement (Nov 19, 2011)

wokka said:


> It is likely to be a long time until "people on this site" can own one, however the opportunity does exist for keepers to contribute to the hunt so as to allow the animals to be bought into captivity for the perpetuation of the species. Gavin said in his talk that he had spent 300 hours looking unsucessfully for Oepellis. His slide show included pics of helicopters as part of the discovery process which can incurr considerable cost.



So does 'joining the hunt' mean financially sponsoring the search party?


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## Jeffa (Nov 19, 2011)

good and I hope it is not too late to bring these guys into captivity and not reduce the numbers of the wild population at the same time. I could not think of anything worse than taking several specimens from an area and wiping out that population from continuing to breed (irony at its worst)


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## wokka (Nov 19, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> good and I hope it is not too late to bring these guys into captivity and not reduce the numbers of the wild population at the same time. I could not think of anything worse than taking several specimens from an area and wiping out that population from continuing to breed (irony at its worst)


They numbers of many or the reptiles in Kakadu are already being reduced by cane toads.



cement said:


> So does 'joining the hunt' mean financially sponsoring the search party?


Yes , and possibly participating.


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## Trench (Nov 19, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> Agree, as long as you are appreciating the animal for what they are, not the price. What happened to Dick?



He was suspended    lol


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Wow, how quick some members are to shoot others down again lol
> 
> So..... consider this....... they are like a large childrens pythons........ how many thousands of keepers in Australia keep, or have kept childreni? So these 'drab' snakes appeal to keepers, so why not a larger 'drab' snake??



True dat Jay. I have pretty this, and moprh that but my hands down favorite is my boring as bat****** olive python. He's just the coolest animal I've ever known.


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## longqi (Nov 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Wow, how quick some members are to shoot others down again lol
> 
> So..... consider this....... they are like a large childrens pythons........ how many thousands of keepers in Australia keep, or have kept childreni? So these 'drab' snakes appeal to keepers, so why not a larger 'drab' snake??



Jay
It was nothing to do with sniping or shooting down anyone or any thing

Question was asked
"would you buy an Oenpelli python?"
I answered and explained my reason why I would not buy one

Then I simply asked why others would buy them


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## D3pro (Nov 19, 2011)

I personally hold no interest in the species... but I do appreciate them and believe that the few working on them will open yet another "angle" to our hobby in the not too distant future.
"Pretty" has nothing to do with it. Enthusiasts will be happy to work with a new animal. I'll stick to my morelias tho lol


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## FAY (Nov 19, 2011)

I own drab childrens, I love them...SO a large 'drab' children would be loved by me.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 19, 2011)

D3pro said:


> I personally hold no interest in the species... but I do appreciate them and believe that the few working on them will open yet another "angle" to our hobby in the not too distant future.
> "Pretty" has nothing to do with it. Enthusiasts will be happy to work with a new animal. I'll stick to my morelias tho lol



_Morelia oenpelliensis_ amigo!


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## hugsta (Nov 19, 2011)

I think they are a fantastic snake and have loved the idea and hope of owning ever since the first expo in Darling harbour where I got to get hands on with the one on display, have been fascinated with them ever since. be interesting too see how much they will sell for when they hit the market. I think you will need to be in the richest 200 list to get one.......


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## D3pro (Nov 19, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> _Morelia oenpelliensis_ amigo!



Oh let me re-clarify... _morelia spilota sp_ and _morelia viridis_. thats all. LOL


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## Troy K. (Nov 20, 2011)

hugsta said:


> I think they are a fantastic snake and have loved the idea and hope of owning ever since the first expo in Darling harbour where I got to get hands on with the one on display, have been fascinated with them ever since. be interesting too see how much they will sell for when they hit the market. I think you will need to be in the richest 200 list to get one.......




I think you'll be surprised about the price hugsta, I spoke with Gavin after the festival and put my name down for a pair. I'll be sending him my deposit early next year which will help fund the hunt for the first lot of breeders. The one thing I think a lot of people are forgetting is when do you think there will be another native python being brought into the hobby for us to enjoy and work with. I for one am very excited about this project.


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## DeadCricket (Nov 20, 2011)

In some cases I believe that rare species benefit from coming into 'the hobby'

Not only does it help to increase their numbers but more can be learnt about them. 

I also don't agree that Childreni's are 'drab'. I quite enjoy the Antaresia petrol like shine and have met more than one childreni that had a huge personality for a little snake.

It could be an idea to offer pairs to interested breeders one a give back scheme. Say a wild caught pair are taken from x location. After they hatch a captive clutch, wild caught pair and 2 hatchies could be released back into x location. Effectivley moving them into the hobby, maintaining and even increasing wild numbers. Just an idea


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## ozziepythons (Nov 20, 2011)

As far as their market value goes in the long run I'd be very surprised if the outcome doesn't follow suit with other 'elitist' species. Initial market value would be extrordinarily high and after several years of the species being bred by everyday herpers whom compete with one another to move stock on a market that seems to have slowed markedly in recent years the price crash lands and doesn't recover. I still have an old Reptiles Australia magazine advertising Rough Scaled Pythons at $24,000 a pair for the first generation captive bred specimens a handful of years ago now. By comparison nowdays they sell for a little as $350 each for juveniles and have become fairly 'ordinary' on the market. Other species have followed a similar trend which I won't list now but 'roughies' are a classic example.


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## wokka (Nov 20, 2011)

In "Investing" in the Oepelli project you dont only look at financial return. The project ticks many of the boxes, such as :
It will increase knowledge of the species ( and many other Kakadu residents caught in the net)
It will provide a captive population.
It will provide a fair return, (ongoing) to the traditional owners through eco tourism and royalties.
It may produce the opportunity to own an endangered reptile which is becoming rearer as Cane Toads increase.
It is just like investing in Greenpeace,The Wilderness Society or Rising Tide.The returns are longterm and emotional.


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## Waterrat (Nov 20, 2011)

It's interesting to watch people throwing figures around, speculating how much they will cost ......... and the breeding stock is yet to be find. That makes me laugh.


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## jedi_339 (Nov 20, 2011)

I don't really mind whether I own one or not, however I would love to be part of the search,
for me the most enjoyable aspect of the whole project would be getting into the field on the hunt for the Openelli.


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## longqi (Nov 20, 2011)

What happened to the ones already in captivity in North Qld?
Are they going to be part of this?
Always thought relocating to a closer type of climate may have helped in breeding them


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## Waterrat (Nov 20, 2011)

They have been confiscated many years ago. You mean the ones PK had?


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## longqi (Nov 20, 2011)

Sounds about right
Wonder if any survived the transition into government hands?
Might possibly be brood stock out there?


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## FAY (Nov 20, 2011)

hahaha someone will have them, don't you worry...lol

When they are legally caught and bred, they will come out of the woodwork.


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## Waterrat (Nov 20, 2011)

longqi said:


> Sounds about right
> Wonder if any survived the transition into government hands?
> Might possibly be brood stock out there?



No survivors there mate. The adults and the eggs were taken by the NPWS gestapo and sent to some Auschwitz in the NT.



FAY said:


> hahaha someone will have them, don't you worry...lol
> 
> When they are legally caught and bred, they will come out of the woodwork.



I don't think it will be so easy Fay, I bet you, anything that comes out of Gavin's breeding facility will me stamped, PIT tagged, DNAed, photographed and finger-printed by the NT gov. Which is not a bad thing. IMO.


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## FAY (Nov 20, 2011)

Waterrat;2081274
I don't think it will be so easy Fay said:


> Well, lets hope so. BUT humans being humans lol
> Fingerprinted lol


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## wokka (Nov 20, 2011)

As has been said before, the appeal of the Oenpelli Python to private keepers would not be wide so saving them is not a money making project. Its about bringing them into private hands so we can learn and save a species. Its been done before by the government with disasterous outcomes but there is now the necessary clearances and expertise to allow it to happen privately, a little like private conservation in Africa.If you put a price on something it can make it worth saving. Put a price on saving it and some people will want to participate in the saving of it. There are keepers out there willing to pay for the eco tourism experience, and consider a that helping save a species, may have better longterm, far-reaching outcomes, than investing the money on a holiday in Bali.


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## hugsta (Nov 20, 2011)

Troy K. said:


> I think you'll be surprised about the price hugsta, I spoke with Gavin after the festival and put my name down for a pair. I'll be sending him my deposit early next year which will help fund the hunt for the first lot of breeders. The one thing I think a lot of people are forgetting is when do you think there will be another native python being brought into the hobby for us to enjoy and work with. I for one am very excited about this project.



I hope you are right Troy, I hope it is affordable to the many keepers that are out there and not limited to only those that have loads of money to spend. Also, keep in mind that $5k for a snake (Not saying this is the price, purely used as an example) is not much coin for some people, however this can be a lot of money for others. So the relevance of how 'cheap' or 'affordable' something is, is totally relevant to the person telling the story. 
I am also very excited about this project and can't wait till I eventually own my own pair. will be fantastic to see the conservation of this animal in captivity as I am sure it would have a struggle once toads hit its area.


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## FAY (Nov 20, 2011)

Like a lot of things, just because you have the $$$$ does not automatically make you a dedicated keeper. Just gives you the opportunity to score them. At times it can be a pity.


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## DeadCricket (Nov 20, 2011)

FAY said:


> Like a lot of things, just because you have the $$$$ does not automatically make you a dedicated keeper. Just gives you the opportunity to score them. At times it can be a pity.



Agreed. I've met keepers with the $ to have some great reptiles who have less than half the passion of some less well off ones I've met.


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## waruikazi (Nov 20, 2011)

wokka said:


> I think one of the main aims is to find them before the cane toads do. Apparently many animals are falling victim to the migration of the toad. Have you found that Gordo?



No i haven't but i think that is because i didn't get into the feild until after the toads had marched through already. In Kakadu and Arnhem i think we are just about to hit a new equilibrium where some species might recover a little from the toads. Never back to the same level as pre toads though. 

Personally i think weeds and different fire conditions are the biggest threat to drop bears.

Finding them is going to take years, i'm quite confident in saying that. I have put in a similar number of hours, probably more, over the last two years in known locations. I have had one trip where i saw a 'maybe' that got away from me before i could get out to it. It's not going to be easy! 



wokka said:


> It is likely to be a long time until "people on this site" can own one, however the opportunity does exist for keepers to contribute to the hunt so as to allow the animals to be bought into captivity for the perpetuation of the species. Gavin said in his talk that he had spent 300 hours looking unsucessfully for Oepellis. His slide show included pics of helicopters as part of the discovery process which can incurr considerable cost.


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## Allan (Nov 20, 2011)

Can someone tell us a bit more of Gavin's talk?


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## waruikazi (Nov 20, 2011)

Allan said:


> Can someone tell us a bit more of Gavin's talk?



That's what i was hoping someone would do!


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## wokka (Nov 20, 2011)

The project will soon be outlined on Gavins new website: albinopythons.com.au which should be up and running at the end of next week.


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## solar 17 (Nov 20, 2011)

lt appears to me reading this thread according to many posts on here if you have got money you have no passion and don't care except to have an animal as a trophy....what a lot of cr#p, every day on this site< can some tell me how to fix my snake/lizard up l don't have the money to go to the vet well imo 99% of the time "SHORTCUTS" got them into this position in the 1st. place then the critter suffers because the owner cries poor and ignorant, a more balanced view imo would be there are passionate keepers on both sides of the ledger (well off / not so well off)..
.........solar 17 (Baden)


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## FAY (Nov 20, 2011)

What I said was just because you have the $$$ does not mean that you are automatically a passionate keeper. That is no way meaning all are. I think you are reading a lot more into what was actually said.


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## DeadCricket (Nov 20, 2011)

solar 17 said:


> lt appears to me reading this thread according to many posts on here if you have got money you have no passion and don't care except to have an animal as a trophy....what a lot of cr#p, every day on this site< can some tell me how to fix my snake/lizard up l don't have the money to go to the vet well imo 99% of the time "SHORTCUTS" got them into this position in the 1st. place then the critter suffers because the owner cries poor and ignorant, a more balanced view imo would be there are passionate keepers on both sides of the ledger (well off / not so well off)..
> .........solar 17 (Baden)



No offence meant at all Baden. Its just hard sometimes to see great reptiles in the hands of a person who sees them as more of a trophy when they could goto a more passionate but less financially able keeper. Everything I've seen from you suggests you have both knowledge and passion and I have no idea of your financial situation. The comments were not a dig at anyone in particular but rather a frustration that I can't be involved in some of the amazing ongoing projects due to financial constraints.

A case of miscommunication. I apologise

As a more general statement I might mention that I have very rarely seen a keeper lacking passion on this forum. You see more of it whilst contacting sellers through gumtree or in some posts of others experiences.


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## Waterrat (Nov 20, 2011)

DeadCricket said:


> I can't be involved in some of the amazing ongoing projects due to financial constraints.



Mate, the big projects are big because they involve rare or charismatic species such as the western taipan, oenpelli python, earlier rough-scalled and green pythons. You, and everyone else can indulge in amazing projects, you just have to go where your interest takes you. Of all the people I ever worked with or had some herp association with, I most admire a friend of mine who picked up a pair of _Suta suta_ and kept and bred them for 12 years. He was totally absorbed in it. It was an amazing and interesting project because no one has done it before. The only thing I hold against him is that he didn't publish on it. 
Big names, top shelf species are not necessarily the most amazing animals to study or work with and you don't need lots of money to find and undertake a really amazing project.


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## DeadCricket (Nov 20, 2011)

I don't mean to demean cheaper reptiles. I love all my animals. Unfortunately the chance to learn about and help to raise numbers in a new endangered animal is beyond my ability. I seem to have said things the wrong way today. Being at the forefront of any area is exciting and an amazing experience. 

Also by less financially able keeper, I don't just refer to myself. Surely there are others who would love the socks off a gtp who can't afford one and surely there are gtps out there kept in less than the desirable way. 

These general comments are not a direct attack.


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2011)

DeadCricket said:


> The comments were not a dig at anyone in particular but rather a frustration that I can't be involved in some of the amazing ongoing projects due to financial constraints.



At the risk of offending you deadcricket, i think this is what most of those comments boil down to. Except i word it as jealousy and sour grapes. 

These snakes will have to be sold at a premium price for the first couple of generations so the investors can get some return on their capital. This is going to be an expensive project, this isn't going to be like Somon Stone's Gammon Ranges carpets- easier project, cheaper project and easier snakes=lower price tag. You need helicopters to get around (about $2k+ an hour), you need to get into different areas over long periods of time (Last night I conservitely counted the hours i've been looking over the last two years, i'm at 398 hours with nothing to show for it!)  which means lots of expeditions and this is all before you even have an animal! Then once, however many, are found then they need to be housed and fed for several years. After that you can start to think about breeding them, i'm not sure if many people realise this but wild snakes make for terrible captive breeders, especially if they are older animals which i think is likely that they will be! So with luck you'll get one or two clutches out of your W/C's and you can concentrate on raising them, over the next 5 years or so, as breeders.

Alot of time and alot of money spent. BUT Gavin hasn't even been out to collect any yet! It's a bit premature to be speculating about price tags!


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## wokka (Nov 21, 2011)

The spinoffs for this project are far beyond Oenpelli pythons.Lots of flora anf fauna throughout Kakadu,will get "caught up" in the search. Partnering with the traditional owners will facilitate information interchange. The area concerned is very isolated and apparently contains a lot of rock art. I have no doubt that other unknown species will be discovered.


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## DanN (Nov 21, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> At the risk of offending you deadcricket, i think this is what most of those comments boil down to. Except i word it as jealousy and sour grapes.



I'm super jealous! Having the time and funds to spend 300 man hours walking and choppering around Kakadu and Arnhemland to look for one of the world's least known and potentially most enigmatic pythons species..... and still with no results... that sounds amazing, and would normally be frustrating as hell if it wasn't such an amazing part of the world....


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## The Reptile Outlet (Nov 21, 2011)

Allan said:


> Can someone tell us a bit more of Gavin's talk?



The January Issue of Scales & Tails Australia will feature more of Gavin's talk as the main article..... Heaps of pics too!

Cheers
Joy


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## DeadCricket (Nov 21, 2011)

DanN said:


> I'm super jealous! Having the time and funds to spend 300 man hours walking and choppering around Kakadu and Arnhemland to look for one of the world's least known and potentially most enigmatic pythons species..... and still with no results... that sounds amazing, and would normally be frustrating as hell if it wasn't such an amazing part of the world....



I agree. I would love to spend my days doing this


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## Slickturtle (Nov 27, 2011)

*Weeds are worse*



waruikazi said:


> No i haven't but i think that is because i didn't get into the feild until after the toads had marched through already. In Kakadu and Arnhem i think we are just about to hit a new equilibrium where some species might recover a little from the toads. Never back to the same level as pre toads though.
> 
> Personally i think weeds and different fire conditions are the biggest threat to drop bears.
> 
> Finding them is going to take years, i'm quite confident in saying that. I have put in a similar number of hours, probably more, over the last two years in known locations. I have had one trip where i saw a 'maybe' that got away from me before i could get out to it. It's not going to be easy!



You are spot on Gordo. Is is unsexy to talk about, but weeds and fire are worse than toads in north Australia. Toads don't change the entire habitat from woodlands to grasslands but weeds and fire does and is.

Cheers


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## waruikazi (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks Greg!


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## glebo (Dec 6, 2011)

*Oenpelli Tours - a reality*

I just want to let people know that the whole Oenpelli thing is happening including the captive breeding that will happen over the next few years. Most immediate will be the need to capture some founder animals. This will mean spending quite some time searching in the middle of Arnhemland. A place so special the only way in is via an hour helicopter ride. No roads, not tracks, no nothing. The only evidence of humans ever having been there are the paintings on the walls that stretch back some 40+ thousand years. I do not want to breach the rules of this web site so can only suggest to those of you who may be interested in this magnificent snake to look at my web site for further details. I am off to Arnhemland on Thursday and will report back via my web site as well as this forum the results of that trip. Kind regards Gavin


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## waruikazi (Dec 6, 2011)

Good to hear Gavin! 

It's refreshing to see a project like this that isn't shrouded in secrecy!


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## FAY (Dec 6, 2011)

Absolutely fantastic news Gavin. If anyone can do it, you can. So looking forward to how you progress.
Please keep us posted...


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## Waterrat (Dec 6, 2011)

Link to Gavin's web site?


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## gus11 (Dec 6, 2011)

glebo said:


> This will mean spending quite some time searching in the middle of Arnhemland. A place so special the only way in is via an hour helicopter ride. No roads, not tracks, no nothing.



Gavin, I'm sure you've thought this through but maybe its worth searching less remote areas. All the oenpellis I've seen photos of in the past few years have been within walking distance of roads. Litoria lorica was rediscovered outside of what was thought to be its prime habitat (Rainforest), oenpellis may be found more commonly outside of these remote locations.

This is my opinion, I hope people don't really believe bringing this species into captivity will do anything to save wild populations. The laws on releasing captive animals are so strict (for disease etc.) that I find it hard to believe this will ever be possible. Look at the frog breeding facilities pumping out corrorobee frogs, only to have to kill them off because they can't be released, and corrorobee frogs are a species that will soon be extinct in the wild.

The issue of saving them from cane toads is also a bit ridiculous, cane toads have yet to cause anything to go extinct in QLD, including frog specialist species where they have been for 70+ years. I don't know how long toads have been in kakadu but I'm sure its long enough to have already wiped them out, if it was going to. Odds are in favour of the snake.


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## Waterrat (Dec 6, 2011)

gus11 said:


> Look at the frog breeding facilities pumping out corrorobee frogs, only to have to kill them off because they can't be released, and corrorobee frogs are a species that will soon be extinct in the wild.



Really?



Katy Gallagher | Chief Minister, Australian Capital Territory | Corroboree frogs released into the wild for the first time


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## waruikazi (Dec 6, 2011)

gus11 said:


> Gavin, I'm sure you've thought this through but maybe its worth searching less remote areas. All the oenpellis I've seen photos of in the past few years have been within walking distance of roads. Litoria lorica was rediscovered outside of what was thought to be its prime habitat (Rainforest), oenpellis may be found more commonly outside of these remote locations.
> 
> This is my opinion, I hope people don't really believe bringing this species into captivity will do anything to save wild populations. The laws on releasing captive animals are so strict (for disease etc.) that I find it hard to believe this will ever be possible. Look at the frog breeding facilities pumping out corrorobee frogs, only to have to kill them off because they can't be released, and corrorobee frogs are a species that will soon be extinct in the wild.
> 
> The issue of saving them from cane toads is also a bit ridiculous, cane toads have yet to cause anything to go extinct in QLD, including frog specialist species where they have been for 70+ years. I don't know how long toads have been in kakadu but I'm sure its long enough to have already wiped them out, if it was going to. Odds are in favour of the snake.



Brining them into captivity may not save them in the wild, but what is learnt about them on these expeditions probably will go a long way in the overall conservation effort.


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## -Peter (Dec 6, 2011)

FFtastic!


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## Macca (Dec 6, 2011)

Gus, unfortunately, your information is wrong, and actually couldn't be further from the mark. 

Both species of Corroboree Frogs are being bred for release, with reintroductions of both species taking place over the last two years. No individual has ever been "killed off because they can't be released". The captive populations are still in the building phase with most of the individuals yet to reach maturity. Once this occurs,every possible specimen will be bred, with offspring released as part of well-monitored reintroductions.

Looking at the frog breeding facilities - there are currently reinroduction programs taking place in Australia for 7 species, with an additional 1-2 to take place in coming years. There are strict conditions and permits required but nothing that can't be easily attained for a properly managed conservation project.

The only reason that Litoria lorica is still remaining in that isolated patch of marginal habitat is because of the open nature of that habitat, creating warmer microhabitat not allowing chytrid fungus to have as lethal an impact on the species. If not for disease, it would still be throughout the rainforest. As far as we aware, this is not a problem for Oenpellis.

I personally don't think Oenpelli's coming in to captivity will do anything in the short-term to save wild populations. However, if a core group of the animals remains genetically managed by studbook, should further declines occur due to whatever circumstance, there will be a population from which animals could be used for reintroduction or conservation research in the future. Additionally, if the captive population does as well the Rough-scaled Python project, there will never be the future temptation of illegal collection, as very few are likely to spend 300+ man hrs searching to collect these guys when you can purchase one for $350.


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## viridis (Dec 6, 2011)

I like the idea of O.P's becoming available to the public. If they were for sale for 15K now, I would buy a pair but I would not outlay my money for something that will take about 5 years to see the hatchlings.

I support Gavin 110% in what he is doing though. He has always been at the front of the battle in regards to getting O.P's into the publics hands. Good work.

In regards to their rarity though, there is one keeper in the N.T that has seen over 25 animals in the wild, so unless he is a reptile finding freak of nature, they are more accessible then most think.

I know how long it took me to find my first M. viridis in the wild and yet once I have the area figured out, I can find upto 5 Chondro's within a few hours walking now. The same goes for A. warro. It took over 5 years to see my first one and now I have found 3 animals in the one night on foot. 

Once Gavin finds his first animal, the rest will quickley follow.

In regaurds to wanting them for the dollar value..............O.P's would be priceless to me and I will own them as soon as they are advertised regardless of the asking price. After all, the only species of python that I keep at my private residence are two pairs of dirty ol' Rough Scaled's. My number two favourite species of reptile after.......yep you guessed it, O.P's


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## gus11 (Dec 7, 2011)

Macca and waterrat,
seems I was wrong, I did not realize this was the case with the frogs, when I last spoke to people from a certain frog breeding facility (last year) I was told they will killing the tadpoles produced because they're were to many and they couldn't do anything with them.

macca, I did not mean oenpellis were risk of disease, i was implying that i don't think it is necessary to go so far to find them. They have been getting found in easily accessible areas of the park, where there is roads and tracks


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## Slateman (Dec 7, 2011)

lets cool down for the moment.

We will open this topic in 24 hours again.


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## glebo (Dec 19, 2011)

I have just spent five days roaming around Arnhemland looking for the big Ghosts with a friend from NSW. The country we were in was amazing with massive boulders and cave systems that went down forever. Being the stormy season we got smashed by rain every day and with daytime temperatures in the mid to high 30's it is not a place for everyone at this time of year. We found a number of critters that you dont often see like Carpenter frogs by the bucketload, also masked frogs and small Crinia (no idea on Sp.) high on top of the massifs we traversed. Saw ring tailed dragons and a couple of goannas - tree goanna (V. scalaris). ran into a few buffalo. Did we find the Ghost? No but we found two childrens pythons, the only pythons for the trip. Most common reptile - giant cave gecko by far. Looking forward to the end of the wet season now to get back up into that country and hope to have a few of you come with me. See the next edition of Scales and Tails for details. Cheers Gavin


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## Bushman (Dec 19, 2011)

There's an urgent need to secure this vulnerable and majestic species in captivity. 
Captive breeding projects are becoming increasingly necessary in order to save endangered species. 
New large horned viper discovered, but biologists keep location quiet


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## olivehydra (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks for the update Gavin.

Out of interest, one of photos on your website appears to
be of a hatchling/juvenile Oenpelli. Am I correct in assuming this was a captive specimen
from a past project?
Cheers


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 19, 2011)

It would be of interest to hear what time zones you are looking for this species and what period of year you would expect to find them out and about active. In the Pilbara I have had to learn the magic hours, moon phase, barometric pressure, humidity etc that make finding some critters after a while completely predicable. Being a species that intrigues me, I find what you are doing of great interest.

Another question, are these expeditions on film?


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## glebo (Dec 19, 2011)

There are many people I need to thank for allowing me to 'borrow' some photos of the Ghost until I actually find one myself including the GURU Gunther Schmida for the hatcho shot and Stuart MacDonald for photos many will recognise. The photo of me holding an adult was from many years ago in Oenpelli township and it was released by Parks and Wildlife NT after being held by a person who didnt have a permit for it. Before being released I got to hold it - a thrill as you can imagine! Hope this helps. Cheers Gavin


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## Waterrat (Jan 4, 2012)

Have you seen this?

Picasa Web Albums - Kel - Oenpelli Pyth...


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## longqi (Jan 4, 2012)

I wonder how closely related Oenpellis are to Timorensis or are Timorensis closer to Scrubbys


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## waruikazi (Jan 4, 2012)

longqi said:


> I wonder how closely related Oenpellis are to Timorensis or are Timorensis closer to Scrubbys



I would guess probably not that close to either timorensis or scrubs. The head sheilds are significantly different to drop bears.


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## glebo (Mar 28, 2012)

*I have found one!!!!*

Hello All, After more time, energy, blood and tears than I care to acknowledge the Oenpelli Project is finally happening. I am delighted to say that a friend and I caught the very first python held legally in private hands at around 11pm on Saturday the 24th of March in the middle of Arnhemland. She is around 2.3 metres and AMAZING in every way. While not possessing the bright gold and black of a Jungle carpet, the broken brown and white pattern of the night colours were sensational. To hold it was like velvet as the scales are soft like a GTP. As many of you will know I am taking a couple of people out looking for them in May and hold high hopes that they will be rewarded with a find like this as well, not to mention seeing some of the most amazing country on the planet. If you want to know more about the trips out to Arnhemland in May 10-13 I still have one vacancy for an intrepid herp tourist. To all those who have helped and who have believed in this project you have my sincere thanks. For me it is a complete honour to work with a magical animal and the Traditional Owners from whose country this animal has come and bring it into the herp world. I hope you will all support this project and let me just say that it is still some way from becoming a breeding reality but Saturday was a huge start. Please feel free to contact me via my web site and I will do my best to respond. (Albino Python - Australia's Amazing Albino Pythons and Snakes | Albino Snakes Pythons Gavin Bedford Darwin Australia)
Cheers
Gavin Bedford


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## Red-Ink (Mar 28, 2012)

Congrats Gavin...


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## blakehose (Mar 28, 2012)

That is truly awesome news.


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## herpingjournal (Mar 28, 2012)

fantastic news


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## abnrmal91 (Mar 28, 2012)

Congrats Gavin it's been a long time coming. Hopefully the trip in may is successful can't wait.


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## SamNabz (Mar 28, 2012)

Congrats Gavin. Any pics?


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## Manda1032 (Mar 28, 2012)

Scleropages said:


> Ugh.. I want one!.. they look like a giant childrens python! - I hope they are less bitey than scrubbys!



That's exactly what I thought!


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## Greenmad (Mar 28, 2012)

Congrats gavin lets hope you find some more


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## Bushman (Mar 28, 2012)

That's great news! Congratulations Gavin. 
How does this specimen handle?


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## browny (Mar 28, 2012)

Fantastic news mate good luck with the future, would love to join you out there for the hunt that country side is just amazing


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## The Reptile Outlet (Mar 28, 2012)

Well done Gavin. I'm so happy to see all your hard work coming to fruition. Just wish I was a few years younger to be able to join in one of those trips..... Oh well,,, I'll enjoy seeing the pics and hearing all about it.


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## Basstones (Mar 28, 2012)

Wow, amazing update. Look forward to hearing more.


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## waruikazi (Mar 29, 2012)

Word on the street is to keep an eye on the news tonight or over the next couple of days. I'm not sure if it will go national but we can hope, hopefully you will get to see the first pictures of this snake!


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## Frozenmouse (Mar 29, 2012)

They are pretty common gordo there are some around hd . I personally think they are not much to look at just like albino darwins are boring and roughies are boring but rarity attracts admirers and $$ regardless of looks.


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## Snake-Supplies (Mar 29, 2012)

Pfft, just play the waiting game... everything comes down in price.


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## Wiganov (Mar 29, 2012)

I've posted this quote of Rick Shine's before, but I like it as a counterpoint to the "Oenpellis are boring" chorus: "To see one of these giant ghostly snakes stretched out on the Arnhem Land escarpment in the moonlight is one of the great sights of Australian herpetology."

That said, they are one of those snakes I'd love to see but wouldn't be clamouring to keep. I'm not confident I could successfully recreate that moonlit escarpment feel in a box...


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## junglepython2 (Mar 29, 2012)

Fantastic news, congratulations.


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## Ambush (Mar 29, 2012)

Well done. Can I go next time?


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## Darlyn (Mar 29, 2012)

Great news. About what age would it be? 
How old do they need to be to breed?


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## PilbaraPythons (Mar 29, 2012)

Good news for the hobby, now just need a few more.


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## Wiganov (Mar 29, 2012)

For what it's worth, here's the press release from the NT Government this arvo:

[h=2]Media Release: 29.03.12[/h]*Sustainable Future for the Oenpelli Python*

The first ever legal commercially harvested Oenpelli Python has been taken into captivity in Western Arnhem Land.
Classed as Vulnerable under the Territory Parks and Wildlife Conservation Act, the two metre female Oenpelli Python was caught on Saturday, 25 March 2011 by Dr Gavin Bedford, highly respected Northern Territory herpetologist, and Traditional Owners.

Last year, the Minister for Parks and Wildlife approved the “Options for Establishing a Sustainable Use Program for the Oenpelli Python”. 

The Manager, Wildlife Use, Keith Saalfeld said that the combination of highly restricted range and vulnerable status has resulted in the Oenpelli Python being highly sought after by collectors and breeders across Australia and around the world.

“The guidelines set out in the “Options for Establishing a Sustainable Use Program for the Oenpelli Python” focus on the establishment of sustainable utilisation of the Oenpelli Python”.

The two key components of the guidelines are; that any utilisation is sustainable and does not negatively impact the conservation status of the species; and that the utilisation provides a significant direct and measurable benefit to the Traditional Owners who are the landholders of the country in which Oenpelli Pythons are found.
“This is the first animal to be successfully taken under a permit issued by the Department Of Natural Resources, Environment, the Arts and Sport (NRETAS) in accordance with the approved guidelines”, said Mr Saalfeld.

“As required under the Permit to Take Protected Wildlife, GPS coordinates of the exact location that the animal was found were recorded, along with a detailed photograph of the head and neck scale pattern (a snake’s “fingerprint”). The animal has also been implanted with a unique ID microchip.

This information is provided to the Parks and Wildlife Service, who in turn take samples for the DNA profiling of each python. The DNA of every legally harvested and bred Oenpelli Python will be on record.

“This information is required for every Oenpelli Python legally harvested from the wild and for each of the offspring of these animals. This is to ensure that illegally harvested pythons cannot be used in trade or for breeding. Heavy penalties apply for any illegally taken wildlife in the Northern Territory”, concluded Mr Saalfeld.

The Oenpelli python has a very restricted range, found only on the sandstone massif of western Arnhem Land – an area of about 34,000 km2. The entire distribution is confined to Aboriginal land.

Any harvest requires both a permit under the Territory Parks and Wildlife Conservation Act and a Land Use Agreement under the Aboriginal Land Rights (NT) Act.

Two permits and Land Use Agreements to harvest Oenpelli Pythons have been issued; one to Dr Gavin Bedford, a highly respected Northern Territory herpetologist working in partnership with Traditional Owners in western Arnhem Land, and the second to Djelk Wildlife Enterprises, an Indigenous wildlife enterprise working with Traditional Owners in western Arnhem Land.



To help ensure that the benefit to Traditional Owners is maintained, no wild-caught breeding stock will be permitted to leave the Northern Territory.

Follow this link to access the publication _‘Options for Establishing a Sustainable Use Program for the Oenpelli Python’:_
Approved Programs - NRETAS Internet Site


Ends


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## abnrmal91 (Mar 29, 2012)

If it does end up on the news in NT can someone put up a link on here.


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## waruikazi (Mar 29, 2012)

Rare, treasured python now a potential pet - ABC Darwin - Australian Broadcasting Corporation

A little tid-bit and the first available pictures.


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## Darlyn (Mar 29, 2012)

Saw a snippet on the news tonight, looks pretty young.
Wonderful beginning to a great adventure tho, good luck Gavin : )


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## Specks (Mar 29, 2012)

well unfortunately there are no more available spots on the first trip
I got onto gavin and secured it 
Looking forward to the experience


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## Darlyn (Mar 29, 2012)

Good luck Specks, I'm going with Waruikazi since he hasn't found one yet I'm thinking the odds are with him ha ha


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## SteveNT (Mar 29, 2012)

Gonna catch any adults? They breed better. (are you sure it's not a childrens? )

Can someone explain to me how "wildlife is in catastrophic decline" in Arnhem Land?????? Apart from quolls everything else is bouncing back. Far as I can tell there is only anecdotal evidence of a decline in Oenpelliensis from self interested white fellas.

Where is the hard data that shows Oenpellies are in massive decline? I cant find any evidence anywhere. The countrymen I work with across Arnhem Land laugh at this idea.

Let's call it what it is, a commercial venture (and I have no problem with this as long as a fair proportion of the money goes to TOs.), and leave the unfounded dramatics out of this.


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## saratoga (Mar 30, 2012)

The catastophic decline in wildlife, particularly in mammals is well documented in Kakadu, and it's not just the scientific community that has noticed, T/O's are very concerned as well. The Top End is a very different place now to what I experienced when I first visited in 1984.

"everything else is bouncing back" ????? there have been some sightings of animals in recent times that were knocked around heavily by the toads, but I think bouncing back is a leap of faith at this stage! The toads are just one factor amongst many others, eg weed invasion, changing fire regimes, feral animals etc

Oenpellis have never been common and as such there is no population data available.....it's just guesswork. An animal whose main prey is mammals, in an area where mammal decline is well documented – I think there is every reason to be concerned. Too often "anecdotal" reports from reliable observers are cast aside as not being scientifically valuable. Tell me where we can get baseline data on their populations from, considering you would need a considerable number to get anything statistically significant and therefore scientifically valuable!

Sure this is a commercial venture, but it has a very strong conservation base as well.


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## waruikazi (Mar 30, 2012)

The decline in many species across the topend is very well documented Steve. Read nearly anything by John Woinarski and if you trust him and his data you will become a beleiver. 

No one has ever said that there is a definite or recorded drop in drop bear numbers and Gavin certaintly didn't claim that in the interview. Most researchers say their is a lack of data to claim beyond a shadow of a doubt. But if the trends are followed and the anecdotes are taken into account it definately seemes likely that there will be or has been a decline in there numbers. Especially when we take into account what Greg (saratoga) has said. 

Until very recently i thought like you. But the more research i do, the more i am thinking the opposite. 



SteveNT said:


> Gonna catch any adults? They breed better. (are you sure it's not a childrens? )
> 
> Can someone explain to me how "wildlife is in catastrophic decline" in Arnhem Land?????? Apart from quolls everything else is bouncing back. Far as I can tell there is only anecdotal evidence of a decline in Oenpelliensis from self interested white fellas.
> 
> ...


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## orientalis (Mar 30, 2012)

Darlyn said:


> Great news. About what age would it be?
> How old do they need to be to breed?



3.5yrs + would most likely be the min age before being able to re-produce in captivity.....obviously wild specimens would require additional years.


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## Slickturtle (Mar 30, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> Gonna catch any adults? They breed better. (are you sure it's not a childrens? )
> 
> Can someone explain to me how "wildlife is in catastrophic decline" in Arnhem Land?????? Apart from quolls everything else is bouncing back. Far as I can tell there is only anecdotal evidence of a decline in Oenpelliensis from self interested white fellas.
> 
> ...



Hi Steve

Gordo and Saratoga are spot on in my view. Here is another angle on it.

This is a direct quote from the overarching Federal environmental protection Act - the EPBC:

*“A lack of full scientific certainty should not be used as a reason for postponing measures to prevent degradation of the natural and cultural heritage of a reserve or zone where there is a threat of serious or irreversible damage.”

*This quote is also built into the Kakadu Plan of Management which - of course - is run by the Federal Government.

It is now 6 years since the NT Parks and Wildlife Commission published a status report on the Oenpelli Python. They have listed it as "Vulnerable" They would not do that for no reason. Here are recommendations in the Status Report:

*"Conservation objectives and management*
*Research priorities are to:*
*(i) examine the impacts of fire regimes upon the Oenpelli python directly, or its preferred prey species;*
*(ii) attempt to derive some estimate of relative abundance, habitat associations and total population size;*
*(iii) collate, where appropriate, traditional ecological knowledge of this species held by Aboriginal landowners in the stone country.*

*Management priorities are to:*
*(i) establish a monitoring program for this species, particularly with reference to its response to fire management;*
*(ii) continue to deter illicit reptile collectors."

*That was 6 years ago, and apart from the last point (which is ongoing, routine management in Kakadu) neither the NT parks and Wildlife or Parks Australia in Kakadu have managed to do even one of these things - after 6 years! It takes a private individual, pushing uphill all the way, to try to get something done. Gavin has been at this for 9 years!! Thus, if either of the responsible conservation agencies had done anything - just anything on this list - then I would be inclined to agree with you about the commercialisation aspect. But they have failed dismally and therefore I support Gavin 100%.

And don't forget - all this is about just one species. Who is worrying about all the other endemic animals (and plants) of Kakadu and west Arnhemland that are going belly up right now? Nobody - that's who. The Giant Arnhemland Skink in Kakadu is so close to extinct that it does not matter. Even if Parks Australia suddenly woke from its torpor, it is possible that they would not find enough individual skinks to create a viable breeding colony. Who is worrying about the White throated Grass Wren, the Phascogale, the Golden Bandicoot, the Brush Tailed Rabbit Rat and the the Arnhem Rock Rat? Nobody - that's who. And what about all those Kakadu animals about which we know nothing. There are about 9 endemic reptiles in kakadu, and nobody knows what is happening to them.So this rant is meant to paint the picture that if the private sector does not do some pushing and shoving (regardless of what model you might want to use) all the signs are pointing to a situation where we are likely to loose species from the wild hand over fist - if things don't change.

And as for countrymen laughing out loud, - maybe they would. But that is because they see no distinction between and Oenpelli Python and a Childrens Python.

It is a good debate to have - ain't it.
Greg Miles


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## abnrmal91 (Mar 30, 2012)

Well said Greg


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## Wiganov (Mar 30, 2012)

Too lucid to count as a rant, Greg. Thanks for saying it.


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## -Katana- (Mar 30, 2012)

Have the numbers of varanus glauerti been affected? They are such a beautiful monitor. I'd hate to see them become extinct. Do you know if anyone's been issued with a permit to collect them?


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## waruikazi (Mar 30, 2012)

Bang on Slick! And that is just talking about the animals that we _know_ about, there are species in the escarpment that no one has even laid eyes on yet. How many have we lost before we even knew they were there?!


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## Bushman (Mar 30, 2012)

Excellent post Greg. You've raised some very valid points there. The quote from the EPBC is a _critical_ statement. 
Bureaucracies are inherently sluggish and notoriously slow to act. They're all too often rendered ineffective as a result of cumbersome due process. In the face of rapid and catastrophic environmental devastation, such as what is occurring in the Top End, it will probably be too late for many species. If we wait patiently, for under-resourced government departments to save our environment, we will only have ourselves to blame.
The time has definitely come for the private sector to really step up. Hopefully the passionate enthusiasm and considerable resources of private individuals banded together will make a real difference. Perhaps the corporate sector can also be enticed to contribute their considerable capital to the cause. If we can get organized and rally together, we would have much more political clout that will hopefully enable us to affect significant and long-lasting environmental change.


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## saratoga (Mar 30, 2012)

Slickturtle said:


> This is a direct quote from the overarching Federal environmental protection Act - the EPBC:
> 
> *“A lack of full scientific certainty should not be used as a reason for postponing measures to prevent degradation of the natural and cultural heritage of a reserve or zone where there is a threat of serious or irreversible damage.”
> *



Very true, although I never expected to see a comment like that in a government report. The general public just don't understand that even for common animals it takes countless years to establish " any idea of scientific certainty" in wild populations and in the meantime things can just slip away.



Slickturtle said:


> Who is worrying about all the other endemic animals (and plants) of Kakadu and west Arnhemland that are going belly up right now? Nobody - that's who. The Giant Arnhemland Skink in Kakadu is so close to extinct that it does not matter. Even if Parks Australia suddenly woke from its torpor, it is possible that they would not find enough individual skinks to create a viable breeding colony. Who is worrying about the White throated Grass Wren, the Phascogale, the Golden Bandicoot, the Brush Tailed Rabbit Rat and the the Arnhem Rock Rat? Nobody - that's who.




The Giant Arnhemland Skink: Were we too late for this one? 

Two very competent field herpetologists, very familiar with the area and its animals spent 6 weeks searching the escarpment focusing on finding this one animal. Not only did they not find any evidence of living specimens, (nor any Oenpelli Pythons), they were saddened by how "dead" some of the escarpment country was when it came to wildlife. A big wake up call I think! See this link for a bit more info:

Arnhem Crevice Skink photo - Alexander Dudley photos at pbase.com



Slickturtle said:


> Nobody - that's who.


 – gone are the days when you could ask a park ranger about wildlife and expect an informed reply. Sadly very few people on the ground in these areas anymore who have much of an idea about local wildlife, let alone experience.(at least from a white fella perspective)

Great post Greg


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## SteveNT (Mar 30, 2012)

I just wrote a huge response and (as has been happening a lot lately) APS was suddenly "not responding". I lost the lot. I will try an abreviated (not inebriated) response after a cold beer.

I just spent last week in Central Arnhem Land. We went up into the stone country where we did not find a single toad. Frogs and lizards were abundant as were the scats of mammals from wallaroo to antechinus size. We found the tracks of several small to medium sized snakes and 2 xl ones. These larger tracks could have been bhps (whose population has increased since the toads) or olives but the TOs I was with immediately identified them as “the big white snake”. I had not discussed oenpellies with them up to that point. We found NO weed species in the stone country although we identified 34 species in and around the Community.

I agree with the points Greg makes. My job is to get the various Ranger groups across Arnhem Land trained up to tackle those same issues. There is more hope of these groups managing burning, controlling weeds and reducing ferals (all of which, except the toads, have been here more than a century) than any government department or private enterprise.

I say again, I have no problem with the commercial utilisation of wildlife, including Gavin’s project, as long as it is sustainable and the TOs get genuine benefit from the process. I have seen too many schemes that sound great, where ultimately the money is squirreled away and the TOs end up with nothing but a bad taste in their mouths.

Perhaps if Parks put more people on the ground instead of wasting their money on desk driving computer modellers we would find out what is really going on in the stone country. After all that is what we are really talking about here, not the floodplains or the savannah woodland or the coast.

I am seeing resurgences in many species that were invisible after the toads arrived. And I spend a lot of time on country.

Greg I would like to discuss with you (given your photographic archive), creating a cybertracker database that the Rangers could use for recording native species. We already have very good ones for weeds and ferals that provide excellent information and the Rangers always carry these devices with them. Another string to their bow perhaps? Also regards to Carlia, I used to take her bushwalking with the Dukes Mob many moons ago.


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## waruikazi (Mar 30, 2012)

Which community were you in Steve?

I agree, we are starting to see a resurgence in _some_ species that were affected by the toads, mulgas for example certaintly seem to be turning up more often than they did 5 years ago. But alot of the decline, particularly in the mammal numbers, is not attributed to the toads. We know they are still there, no one says they aren't. But they are not in the same numbers that thye used to be. 

I'mheading out to get inebriated. I'll hold my breath and look forward to reading more on this tomorrow.


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## SteveNT (Mar 30, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> Which community were you in Steve?
> 
> I agree, we are starting to see a resurgence in _some_ species that were affected by the toads, mulgas for example certaintly seem to be turning up more often than they did 5 years ago. But alot of the decline, particularly in the mammal numbers, is not attributed to the toads. We know they are still there, no one says they aren't. But they are not in the same numbers that thye used to be.
> 
> I'mheading out to get inebriated. I'll hold my breath and look forward to reading more on this tomorrow.



I'm seeing bandicoots, frillies, water pythons, lots of v mertensii, mulgas, whips and everything but quolls, lots of these guys vanished after the toads. Last time on Coroboree I saw toads in sunglasses backstroking across the river. Nothing touched them, not freshies, not salties, not birds and not fish. Country is more resilient than some would make out.

Which Community? Jeez bro, that's "commercial in confidence" ha ha. Enjoy!


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## Bushman (Mar 30, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> I'm seeing bandicoots, frillies, water pythons, lots of v mertensii, mulgas, whips and everything but quolls, lots of these guys vanished after the toads. Last time on Coroboree I saw toads in sunglasses backstroking across the river. Nothing touched them, not freshies, not salties, not birds and not fish. Country is more resilient than some would make out...


It's good to hear that some species are starting to recover their numbers.
Steve are you suggesting that native predators are learning to actively avoid the Cane Toad? 
This is remarkable given that these toads don't have the bright warning colours and patterns that are so often typical of other poisonous amphibians. If this is indeed the case, I wonder how they're learning to recognize the toads and hence avoid them.



SteveNT said:


> ...I just spent last week in Central Arnhem Land. We went up into the stone country where we did not find a single toad. Frogs and lizards were abundant as were the scats of mammals from wallaroo to antechinus size. We found the tracks of several small to medium sized snakes and 2 xl ones. These larger tracks could have been bhps (whose population has increased since the toads) or olives but the TOs I was with immediately identified them as “the big white snake”...


Steve is it possible that the toads haven't reached Central Arnhem Land yet due to some physical barrier?
That's very impressive tracking skills by the TO's you were with to recognize an Oenpelli track as distinct from other large snake trails. When I was living up there, they taught me how to track and I was ever in awe of the incredible skill and tremendous insight that they had. Gavin should utilize the amazing abilities of the TO's in tracking down some more specimens if he isn't already doing so.


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## SteveNT (Mar 31, 2012)

Bushman, they smell even to our inferior nostrils, anything with an olfactory organ will know that these ****heads are in the vicinity. Whether food or foe, they decide.

The toads have been here long time, we cant kill them all. They moved through Central Arnhem a decade ago. Some country is not for them. They are from the floodplains of Guatemala and now they are back in the Oz equivalent. Eventually we will have to accept them as part of our biota. As has everything else.


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## waruikazi (Mar 31, 2012)

Like i said Steve, i agree. We are seeing a resurgence in the numbers of some species that were effected by the toads. In the last two years i have started seeing the same animals as you returning to the land scape. I've even seen panoptes (young and old) turning up! I read a paper by Johhn Woinarski a month ago, where he had surveyed small mammal numbers in Kakadu near Jabiru. There were a number of species whose numbers were increasing over the last 10 years. 

Which is great. But it doesn't take into account the drop in numbers over the last 30 years. We know that numbers were going down since the 80's and earlier, the data is clear, but it was a gradual decline. When the toads turned up BAM! Over night there was a catastrophic drop in predator numbers, we saw animals in their death throws and even animals dead with toads still in their mouths. At that time it was easy to attribute all the losses to the toads. 

Now that the toads have been in the landscape for a decade or more we are starting to see species recover from the initial crash they caused. This has been seen numerous times across the country with feral animals, even the murray cod has recovered somewhat from the introduction of the ueropean carp. But this doesn't take into account the earlier and continued effect of weeds, fire, climate change, habitat destruction and other introduced ferals etc etc. 

I know that you know this already Steve. 

BTW, the toads are at the tops and centre of the escarpment. I never beleived they were until a week ago but i saw them with my own eyes and have the pictures to prove it.



SteveNT said:


> I'm seeing bandicoots, frillies, water pythons, lots of v mertensii, mulgas, whips and everything but quolls, lots of these guys vanished after the toads. Last time on Coroboree I saw toads in sunglasses backstroking across the river. Nothing touched them, not freshies, not salties, not birds and not fish. Country is more resilient than some would make out.
> 
> Which Community? Jeez bro, that's "commercial in confidence" ha ha. Enjoy!


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## Bushman (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks for that info Steve. In time I suppose predators may also learn to recognize their characteristic gait and swimming style, as backstroke in sunglasses is pretty distinctive! lol

Putting toads aside for now, as _Morelia oenpelliensis_ are unlikely to prey directly on them; there is no doubt that there's been a dramatic decline in native mammal numbers across the Top End since the arrival of white man. Since large mammals are more susceptible to changes in land use and threats from introduced species, as has occurred, this has no doubt had a direct impact on the Oenpelli Python. Since large mammals are the major food source of adults in particular, their decline would have had a significant impact on Oenpelli numbers. As a large apex predator, _M. oenpelliensis_ are particularly vulnerable to declines in available mammalian prey.

As we know, the total population of _M. oenpelliensis_ is poorly surveyed and no study has been made of the rate of its decline. This is partly due to the inaccessibility of the region. The conservation status of _M. oenpelliensis_ is listed by the Northern Territory Government as vulnerable to extinction. This has been evaluated by known threatening factors, such as altered land use and fire regimes, and population inferred from the relative abundance of its prey. Suitable habitat is also limited in the distribution range of the species. 

So I don't think there's any good argument against establishing and therefore protecting this species against extinction through captive breeding programmes. However, I'm not sure if the model being used is the best one. The notion of 'first in, best dressed' for distribution of the first captive bred offspring is somewhat problematic in my opinion. By all accounts, of which there are very few admittedly, this species is not easy to keep and breed in captivity. Therefore, I think that the first generation of CB Oenpelli Pythons should only go to the most experienced python keepers/breeders in the country. Once established in captivity in good numbers by these breeders, then they can be distributed to hobbyists.


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## SteveNT (Mar 31, 2012)

They are very keen on fruit bats and countrymen tell me they like black wallaroos and rock wallabies also. As far as I am aware none of these have suffered population crashes. 

Yes Gordo I have seen the toads on top of the escarpment but in nothing like the numbers on the floodplains or woodland. I believe the local wildlife is learning to avoid the toads which is great.


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## Darlyn (Mar 31, 2012)

Hey Waruikazi do you know what Gavin intends to feed them with?


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## waruikazi (Mar 31, 2012)

Darlyn said:


> Hey Waruikazi do you know what Gavin intends to feed them with?



His exact words were 'Anything that it will take.'


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## wokka (Mar 31, 2012)

Darlyn said:


> Hey Waruikazi do you know what Gavin intends to feed them with?



Rodentfarm has offered to supply rabbits if they will take them.


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## Jeffa (Apr 1, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> They are very keen on fruit bats and countrymen tell me they like black wallaroos and rock wallabies also. As far as I am aware none of these have suffered population crashes.
> 
> Yes Gordo I have seen the toads on top of the escarpment but in nothing like the numbers on the floodplains or woodland. I believe the local wildlife is learning to avoid the toads which is great.



Do Hatchies and Juvies eat the following? Do not think so. Small reptile and mammals would also be the key for these guys to keep the population sustainable. Are they potentially affected as a result of the toads? All animals need to "learn from experience" as they cannot pass this dangerous info onto their offspring. Speculate all you want, but this may be the only chance we save this species from exctinction. I am proud to be in this time where we potentially grasped a species from exctintion, well done Gavin and all involved.


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## Slickturtle (Apr 1, 2012)

SteveNT said:


> They are very keen on fruit bats and countrymen tell me they like black wallaroos and rock wallabies also. As far as I am aware none of these have suffered population crashes.
> 
> Yes Gordo I have seen the toads on top of the escarpment but in nothing like the numbers on the floodplains or woodland. I believe the local wildlife is learning to avoid the toads which is great.



Hi Steve and all

I wrote a paper on the feeding preferences of this species back in 77. As Steve says, fruit bats are their favourites. Maybe when those pythons are common in captivity the owners can do a deal with the managers of the big city botanic gardens!! I can see some synergy there! But seriously, their diet in the wild is an interesting topic as they obviously can't start off by eating Black Wallaroos and rock wallabies. I critical shortage of the right sized prey at all ages of the snake is essential. In their early years they would be after roosting micro bats and the mid sized bats like _Taphazous_ (dog faced free tailed bats) and Ghost Bats (still common - we think- in the region.) This is one of the reasons why I get annoyed with the Govt. conservation agencies. Paying some mammologists to look at the population distribution and dynamics of cave dwelling bats would be a very useful project. They could report on all forms of life in the caves and might turn up good numbers of Oenpellis and Giant Skinks and God knows what else. But nothing is done. They could even invite volunteers to assist the zoologist at little or no cost to the park service and therefore get maximum bang for their buck money wise. It would be a fabulous project to be involved in and I can image that there would be a few people on this forum who would put their hand up to spend a week or two exploring the uncharted caves of west Arnhemland and Kakadu. 

The fruit bat is interesting too. They are regionally nomadic and some have moved into Jabiru and Katherine and other towns. Does this means that they are no longer returning to their traditional, historic roosts where saving pythons are patiently waiting in vain? There is so much that we don't know. One argument would be that if the bat numbers have not gone down, then the python should be /could be doing OK as the bats alone (from micro to mega [flying foxes]) are enough to sustain the pythons from egg to grave.

And Steve - Carlia is fine. Not so a year ago when she was diagnosed with aggressive and advanced Lymphatic cancer whilst 7 months pregnant!! She had about 10 days to live when she was admitted to Darwin hospital. But - thanks to modern medicine and 8 moths in Adelaide getting a stem cell transplant - she is now fixed and running around Darwin just like any other young mother with 2 little kids in tow. (Apologies to all the non human oriented forum members)

Cheers

Curse these computers. I just re-read my post to discover that if you have cancer the best thing to do is to take "8 moths in Adelaide". I can't remember what kind of moths!! And as for pythons "saving" instead of "starving", well, I have no excuse.....!!!!!


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## SteveNT (Apr 1, 2012)

Cheers Greg.

I am really happy to hear Carlia has made it through! She was always a tough nut. Congrats on your grandfatherhood also. As you'd be aware spelling has paled to insignificance these days. 
And my father is fighting the C at the moment. I cant visit him until quote “ he needs me”. Fair enough.

I’m back in central AL next week. Just 4 days but I will learn a ****load about that country from the dialogues I set up 2 weeks ago.
Regarding caves I spent 6 months in Kalkaringi last year and from what I saw there is enough to keep any speliologist or cave biologist going for years!

8 moths? How about 299 crow butterflies?


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## Unclewo-wo (Feb 12, 2014)

I have been making my way through the book "keeping and breeding Australian pythons" and have come across the Morelia oenpelliensis. To answer your question I would love to have one. my question/s to anyone that can help, where can I find more information about them or talk to any one with information about them. If one has not been started can we make a page so those in the know can update on their status and learn more.
please and thank you from wazza aka unclewowo.


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