# Advice



## Skitzmixer (Aug 17, 2013)

Hi All.. 

Just after some advice for this exo-terra enclosure I recently got as an upgrade for my GTP. The dimensions are 600mm long x 450mm wide x 900mm high. So what I've done so far is I've cut out a lid from HMR melamine to replace the fly wire lid and then mounted an 80w ProHerp panel on the melamine. Which gave me a good temp at the top perch of 34 (I haven't attached a thermostat at the moment, but when I do i'll set it to 31). The next perch sits at 27 degree's, and the floor temp is a bitter cold 18 degree's . 

I'm a bit unsure about floor temp and what to do to heat that up. I had a suggestion from a member to coil some heat cord under the enclosure but im just a bit worried about the glass floor. Will it be okay?

I have a thermostat and heat cord I can use, but it means that i'll have to pull apart the current GTP's home in order for me to do it. Will the temps be okay as they are now for me to put her in and then add the heat cord to warm the floor level up?

Any suggestions are welcome. 
Thanks.




Oh also, since I've taken the photo I've added 3 pieces of foam to help retain a bit of heat.


----------



## Chris1 (Aug 17, 2013)

Thats an incredibly strong heater for such a small tank, if anything happens to ur thermostat the snake will be cooked in no time.

I dont keep greens so i cant comment on that, but i would use a 28W, or max 40W panel for that size enclosure.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 17, 2013)

well its been running for the whole day and the hottest its been is 34, this is why im testing it. I have to use a bigger heat mat because the enclosure is glass and the heat disperses quite quickly. Even if it did fail, it would be able to escape down to the lower parts of the enclosure to escape the heat IF it failed. Plus being in a cooler climate doesn't help.


----------



## jaspy (Aug 18, 2013)

Heat Cord is great, and it won't affect the glass or anything like it, I have never used it outside of the enclosure though. I usually just bury it underneath my substrate and then set the temp to about 25 and let it run.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Aug 18, 2013)

I would leave the substrate as it is, a cool area to escape to if it wants to cool down. The season will be warming up from now on anyway. You'll find they choose the part of the enclosure that suits them temp-wise, so having a cool spot is not a problem as long as they have choice. 80W is very powerful though - I would have thought 50W would be quite enough to provide a warm spot for the snake in the coolest weather, in an enclosure of that size.

Jamie


----------



## James_Scott (Aug 18, 2013)

Ive learnt over the years that every house is different when it come to temperature and heating requirements. What works for one person doesnt mean will work for another. This is a problem when giving advice on a forum without knowing all the details. Although I wouldnt recommend an 80w panel for most people it would appear that in this scenario it is giving the perfect themps for this species of snake. I would monitor it over warmer months but with a pulse proportional thermostat I see no reason why it wouldnt be suitable. The enclosure looks great and with the lid mostly sealed now I assume you have good humidity as well. Good job and good luck with the setup.


----------



## JM1982 (Aug 18, 2013)

Would heat cord / floor heating be nessessary if the other temps are fine? (I plan on doing the same but the panel (40w) on a shelf. With no 'under floor' heat)

Btw, nice enclosure Skitzmixer.


----------



## James_Scott (Aug 18, 2013)

JM1982 said:


> Would heat cord / floor heating be nessessary if the other temps are fine? (I plan on doing the same but the panel (40w) on a shelf. With no 'under floor' heat)



What are the dimensions of your enclosure? 
What species is it for?
What temps does your room get down to?


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 18, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I would leave the substrate as it is, a cool area to escape to if it wants to cool down. The season will be warming up from now on anyway. You'll find they choose the part of the enclosure that suits them temp-wise, so having a cool spot is not a problem as long as they have choice. 80W is very powerful though - I would have thought 50W would be quite enough to provide a warm spot for the snake in the coolest weather, in an enclosure of that size.
> 
> Jamie



So it should be fine the way it is then? I haven't put her in yet, still keeping a close eye on the temps.
I thought if I could heat up the substrate a bit that'd help keep the humidity up as well. I did think of using a smaller wattage heat panel but where the enclosure is at the moment its on tiles, in a large room that gets really cold - well our house in general is quite cold. So my theory behind it is, if its bigger then it shouldn't need to work as hard.


----------



## James_Scott (Aug 18, 2013)

Personally if in doubt check out what the temps are in the wild this time of year. There are twmps that breeders give for beginners to ensure a safe living environment regardless of the temps in your house. But given your house temps, glass enclosure and the temps you are achieving then it is all good. Just monitor it over summer and make sure you have a thermostat on for the warmer months.keep in mind you can get some warm days over winter and you dont want to risk not having a thermostat on those days.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 18, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> Personally if in doubt check out what the temps are in the wild this time of year. There are twmps that breeders give for beginners to ensure a safe living environment regardless of the temps in your house. But given your house temps, glass enclosure and the temps you are achieving then it is all good. Just monitor it over summer and make sure you have a thermostat on for the warmer months.keep in mind you can get some warm days over winter and you dont want to risk not having a thermostat on those days.



I'll be using a thermostat all year round (habistat pulse). Problem is the one I want to use, i'm currently using for her enclosure she's currently in, so I wanted to make sure that its perfect before I dismantle the other enclosure. If that makes sense? Call me paranoid haha.


----------



## JM1982 (Aug 19, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> What are the dimensions of your enclosure?
> What species is it for?
> What temps does your room get down to?



I was asking if it was nessessary for him (if all other ambient temps are fine) not for myn.
Or are you just curious?


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 19, 2013)

JM1982 said:


> I was asking if it was nessessary for him (if all other ambient temps are fine) not for myn.
> Or are you just curious?



it was more to help raise the humidity a little bit, plus I don't like the temp being below 23 in the coolest spot..


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 19, 2013)

I've got a thermostat hooked up to it now and I've put her into the enclosure, i'll monitor her and see how she goes.. She's a bit shy at the moment and isn't moving around to much.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 20, 2013)

As I mentioned above, I put her into the enclosure, all went really well.. except for one thing.. she couldn't stretch out enough to move to the next perch, not to mention when she grabs them, they roll! I clearly didn't secure them in well enough.. I think what i'll do to secure them is drill a hole through the PVC end cap and then through the support and put a piece of skewer through it (cut off the sharp pointy end) and see how that goes. At the moment i stuck some paper towel in the PVC end cap to stop it from rolling but i'll try the skewer later today. I'll also head down to the shops today and get some exo-terra vines and chuck them in, hopefully she'll be able to move a bit more.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Aug 20, 2013)

Just a couple of comments - I didn't look too closely at the photo when you first posted, but it looks like the heat panel takes up the entire ceiling of the enclosure? If so this could be a problem as far as the snake seeking to fine-tune the temps it chooses to spend time in. GTPs usually go as high as they can in any enclosure - mine are mostly on the highest perch all the time - they do seem to prefer this. My heat panels (made from 50W heat cords woven into steel mesh) take up only about 1/3 of the enclosure ceiling, so the snakes can go high without being directly under a radiant heat source, and can move either way on the top perch to find the ideal temperature. You may find that the snake chooses to go high regardless of whether the temps are appropriate.

I also think it is wise, in all circumstances to go with the lowest wattage heat source you need to achieve the results you want - if they're a bit cooler than optimum on a few days in winter it won't hurt them at all - they do encounter variable temps in the wild, and not always within the parameters we think are OK. My reasoning for this is that if you have a thermostat failure (it happens surprisingly often), the temps will skyrocket very quickly if the heat source is too powerful, and in some instances you could injure the enclosure inhabitant. With a lower wattage heat source, even if you're not home when the failure occurs, you have more time to deal with the problem - it won't become too hot too quickly. It's a good safety measure.

Thermostats are great when they work...

Jamie


----------



## zulu (Aug 20, 2013)

A setup thats wider is best, you can have heat on one end and the snake can move to the other side when it wants on the same perch.
My enclosures generally have two perchs ,one goes under the heat and one to the back.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 20, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Just a couple of comments - I didn't look too closely at the photo when you first posted, but it looks like the heat panel takes up the entire ceiling of the enclosure? If so this could be a problem as far as the snake seeking to fine-tune the temps it chooses to spend time in. GTPs usually go as high as they can in any enclosure - mine are mostly on the highest perch all the time - they do seem to prefer this. My heat panels (made from 50W heat cords woven into steel mesh) take up only about 1/3 of the enclosure ceiling, so the snakes can go high without being directly under a radiant heat source, and can move either way on the top perch to find the ideal temperature. You may find that the snake chooses to go high regardless of whether the temps are appropriate.
> 
> I also think it is wise, in all circumstances to go with the lowest wattage heat source you need to achieve the results you want - if they're a bit cooler than optimum on a few days in winter it won't hurt them at all - they do encounter variable temps in the wild, and not always within the parameters we think are OK. My reasoning for this is that if you have a thermostat failure (it happens surprisingly often), the temps will skyrocket very quickly if the heat source is too powerful, and in some instances you could injure the enclosure inhabitant. With a lower wattage heat source, even if you're not home when the failure occurs, you have more time to deal with the problem - it won't become too hot too quickly. It's a good safety measure.
> 
> ...




Maybe i'll just scrap the idea completely and put her back in her original tub. I thought i might have to use the bigger heat panel because in a separate enclosure that's 4x2x2 melamine (with the panel mounted on the roof) i couldn't get any reasonable temps on the floor level. I have the thermostat probe sitting on a log that's 1/2 the height of the enclosure under the heat panel and the pulse didn't even start pulsing it was on full. So it gives you an idea on how cold the house is. This enclosure is in a carpeted room as well so in theory it should be a bit warmer.

You're absolutely right, it does take up the entire length, but about 2/3's of the width. It is a rather big heat panel I do agree, but I was worried that it couldn't generate enough heat especially in a glass enclosure. I ran the panel with no thermostat for 2 days and the hottest it got to was 34 degree's. I understand that its winter so in summer that figure will certainly change. Although lets face it, with all the troubles im having now, it'll probably be back in its tub - at least I know that ones fine.

I wanted something that the GTP could climb up rather than something thats wide, i thought that if the GTP was to hot it could move down to the perch below to regulate a bit better. I didnt think it was going to be so hard to create a vertical thermo gradient. Should of thought about it a bit longer rather than rushing out and getting it. I did do a bit of reading about them and people seem to say they really like them, maybe they're from warmer climates.

So its either buy a smaller heat panel (40w) and hope that its enough to heat the spot up or build a new wider enclosure (2x2x2 or 3x2x2, using the same heat panel?) to allow for better thermo gradient..

Thanks.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 20, 2013)

zulu said:


> A setup thats wider is best, you can have heat on one end and the snake can move to the other side when it wants on the same perch.
> My enclosures generally have two perchs ,one goes under the heat and one to the back.



Thanks, looks like sell up this enclosure and start again. 
Ah well..


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Aug 20, 2013)

A few more things come to mind... the fact that the enclosure has so much glass doesn't help, but is the bottom panel under the doors just mesh? If your room is cold, the glass doesn't help at all, but if you have vast expanses of ventilation mesh dragging cold air in the bottom and letting it out the top, there is a major convection thing going on and you'll never heat the space appropriately. Zulu is quite correct however when he says that tall cages make it difficult to manage good heat gradients, even with effective heating, especially in colder climates.

In cold places you'll need to reduce the ventilation in order to manage the heat distribution effectively, cover most of the area where cold air gets in at the lower end, and at the very least reduce or eliminate the area at the top where heat can escape. If you can cover the sides of the enclosure with thinish polystyrene foam (such as used under aquariums) you'll further reduce heat loss, and probably allow the use of a smaller heat panel.

Taller cages work OK in mellow climates, but are very difficult in cold places. Don't forget that much of the info on housing comes from the US or Europe, where they keep GTPs quite successfully even in Alaska and northern Germany.... but... the houses have central heating so are already fairly comfortable by human standards. Especially in Southern Oz, it's a bit of a no-man's-land, not cold enough for central heating, but can still get bloody cold for 3 months of the year. Our houses aren't equipped for effective thermomanagement in many cases, especially the older ones.

Jamie


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 20, 2013)

The panel under the doors are glass as well, but there's small vents that allow air flow. I'll tape part of the vents up when I get home to see if that helps. I've put some foam on the sides to help with it retaining a bit more heat already. 

At the moment its sitting at 31.6 (just below the first perch) and its at 88% humidity. She's perched up on the 2nd perch as we speak.

Is it worth just giving up on the idea and move her back into the tub and build a HMR Melamine enclosure?

So I think my options are:
- Buy a 40w heat panel and she can stay in the glass enclosure (maybe?)
or
- Build a new HMR Melamine enclosure that's longer rather than taller. say 3x2x2.

I don't really know what to do. If I have to start again in a different setup, then Im happy to do that, its just an expensive learning curve haha.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 20, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> A few more things come to mind... the fact that the enclosure has so much glass doesn't help, but is the bottom panel under the doors just mesh? If your room is cold, the glass doesn't help at all, but if you have vast expanses of ventilation mesh dragging cold air in the bottom and letting it out the top, there is a major convection thing going on and you'll never heat the space appropriately. Zulu is quite correct however when he says that tall cages make it difficult to manage good heat gradients, even with effective heating, especially in colder climates.
> 
> In cold places you'll need to reduce the ventilation in order to manage the heat distribution effectively, cover most of the area where cold air gets in at the lower end, and at the very least reduce or eliminate the area at the top where heat can escape. If you can cover the sides of the enclosure with thinish polystyrene foam (such as used under aquariums) you'll further reduce heat loss, and probably allow the use of a smaller heat panel.
> 
> ...



So, do you think its worth just scraping the idea or getting a 40w heat panel? I've got a vine in there now so if she wants she can move to a higher or lower perch easier.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Aug 21, 2013)

Well I've decided to scrap the idea completely. I'll put her back in the tub that I know is working perfectly.

I shall hang my head in shame, but at least I tried something new. I'll add this experience to the ever growing knowledge bank.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Aug 21, 2013)

Now Skitzy, DON'T hang your head in shame... you have no need to do that. If you can manage the temps in that encolsure, you'll be fine (and so will you GTP )! All you've done is set yourself a task which has been a bit more difficult than you thought it would be, but the prospects are OK if you consider your options. Sure, a cage which is wider than it is tall is easier to fiddle with, and glass is not the best insulator but I reckon you can do OK with this one too. 

There is no need to be too prescriptive about GTP conditions (many new keepers micro-manage their GTP enclosures with great concern about temps & humidity) but you should always be aware that these animals actually are not artefacts of captivity, they are a living, breathing species which exists in the real world, and which, while maybe needing a bit more attention to the above parameters, is able to withstand significant variations in their environment.

By all means return her to the tub until you get the parameters within acceptable limits. I think the biggest problem you have is the ventilation - with convection the taller, narrow enclosures act like a chimney if a lot of air can enter the bottom and leave via the top. If you stop the heat from escaping out of the top, you'll create a cell of warmer air in the higher parts of the enclosure. That should be all you need. GTPs are so lazy that they'll almost never leave the place where they're comfortable (in any enclosure), so what happens elsewhere in the cage is of little importance.

Jamie


----------

