# Thoughts on UV Lights?



## ViperReptiles (Nov 3, 2015)

So I'm in the process of building a snake rack, I've watched quite a few videos about them and although they all tell me about heating and all of that, none say anything about lighting. What are your opinions on lighting for a snake? Do you think they need a UVB Light?


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Nov 3, 2015)

no you won't need UVB.


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## ViperReptiles (Nov 3, 2015)

Alright thanks


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## pinefamily (Nov 3, 2015)

Except for diamonds.


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## ViperReptiles (Nov 3, 2015)

As much as I'd love to have a Diamond Python, it won't fit in the rack that I'm building  but I will get one eventually because they're beautiful!


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## Wokka (Nov 4, 2015)

pinefamily said:


> Except for diamonds.


Why do diamonds need UVB?


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## pythoninfinite (Nov 4, 2015)

There's actually no reason to believe that Diamond Pythons need UV any more than other snakes, which is to say that it's highly unlikely. Diamonds are only a regional Carpet variation, and being, together with the SW Carpet, the most southern of species, are probably kept too warm by those not familiar with the species and the cooler regions they inhabit. They do thrive in outdoor aviaries in appropriate areas, probably because of the greater rang of temperatures they experience throughout the year.

Some very experienced Diamond hands on APS have also suggested the possibility that DPS (Diamond Python Syndrome) may be caused by a pathogen such as a virus, because there seems to some evidence of it being contagious.

UV won't do any harm to snakes, but it's not necessary for good health.

Jamie


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## pinefamily (Nov 4, 2015)

I tip my hat to you both, Wokka and Jamie. I had read that, while not absolutely critical, UV was beneficial for diamonds.


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## 5hane (Nov 4, 2015)

pythoninfinite said:


> There's actually no reason to believe that Diamond Pythons need UV any more than other snakes, which is to say that it's highly unlikely. Diamonds are only a regional Carpet variation, and being, together with the SW Carpet, the most southern of species, are probably kept too warm by those not familiar with the species and the cooler regions they inhabit. They do thrive in outdoor aviaries in appropriate areas, probably because of the greater rang of temperatures they experience throughout the year.
> 
> Some very experienced Diamond hands on APS have also suggested the possibility that DPS (Diamond Python Syndrome) may be caused by a pathogen such as a virus, because there seems to some evidence of it being contagious.
> 
> ...



Hi Jamie, I recently asked Shane Simpson about diamond python syndrome and was told it's a complete fallacy and that there is no such thing as diamond python syndrome. That its a made up term doctored by keepers that wanted to put a name to their husbandry issues. I don't suppose you have a link or can direct me to where you sourced your information that DPS is a real condition, and that there is evidence that it is contagious.

thanks.


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## Bushfire (Nov 4, 2015)

I'm in the camp that it is a pathogen / virus too. When you step back the read the many personal accounts on DPS, it doesn't make sense that it's husbandry issues, many who have experienced it were / are very experienced keepers. As mentioned above diamond pythons are carpet pythons, if uv was a requirement than all the carpets would, such a change in requirements just doesn't happen to one species and not in its very very close relatives. There was a thread about it in APS a few years ago now of any account where a Newcastle (I'm think) keeper was keeping his diamonds in an outdoor aviary and one by one his diamonds got it. All obviously had access to natural uv and kept within their range but that made no difference in the end. Look at the viruses we now know exist and have a name too, going back 10 - 20 yrs ago I bet these too were put down as husbandry issues.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 4, 2015)

I also believe DPS is completely in people's minds. Just imagine how many husbandry variables could have lead to the demise of snakes in a captive environment. Until there is concrete evidence to prove it's not a husbandry or environmental (tainted bedding) issue no amount of personal opinion will change my mind. 

I also have a gripe with people calling Diamonds "cold climate" snakes. Yes they inhabit some mild areas in their southern distribution but they also inhabit some pretty hot climates too.


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## pythoninfinite (Nov 5, 2015)

A few things... there are some characteristics of (what we refer to as) DPS which seem to be more common in this "variety" of Carpet - the muscle wastage and brittle bones, and the relentless decline to death, which are rarely (or at least far less often) seen in other "varieties." Certainly other species/varieties die from a whole range of husbandry-related causes, but these characteristics are not common or as consistent as they are with Diamonds.

As far as living in hot _climates _is concerned - this is not true. They certainly do have periods in their seasonal lives where extreme heat is possible, but generally the temperature averages along the coast where Diamonds live (on the eastern side of the mountains) are temperate to coolish, with potentially very cold winters, especially at night. A few weeks of high summer temperatures doesn't make a climate hot.

If I recall, the earlier discussion on DPS was encouraged by serpenttongue (don't think I've seen him/her here for a while)... you may be able to correct me if I'm wrong Patrick or Stuart.

Jamie


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## arevenant (Nov 5, 2015)

Diamonds are the most southern living species of python IN THE WORLD. To say they inhabit warm climates is a fallacy, they inhabit areas that can produce extreme conditions on both ends but their general temperate climate is quite low compared to other M. S. varieties...

As for UV - there's no evidence to suggest its beneficial, but it isn't going to do any harm, so entirely up to you IMO.


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## 5hane (Nov 5, 2015)

So the only evidence is the testimony of a handful of keepers, there is no scientific proof of the conditions existence. why is it that diamond pythons can be kept by keepers in Darwin, Cairns ect were the day time temps are in the thirties year round, humidity it over 70% yet they have problem free animals? they cant all be kept in air-conditioned rooms 24/7. if the diamond python is just a carpet variation then just like other carpets it should be quite capable of living in similar conditions as all other sp. If all east coast carpets are genetically the same animal then there is no way this one 'sub species' is the exception. funny how escaped coastals have been found in Melbourne doing quite well, but a diamond would struggle were a coastal would be found. dosen't make sense to me. interesting topic non the less.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 5, 2015)

5hane, the problem is people rely on dated information from old school keepers rather than logic or scientific proof. Richard shine published his clinical findings on all of Australian python's preferred body temperature and there was a tiny 1.5 degree variance between ALL pythons, and if memory serves me correctly it was bredli who had the highest preferred body temperature with M. sp. sub species having 0.x variance. 

There is no difference in Morelia spilota sub-species, they are geographical variants of the same species with differing phenotypes. Why can't people accept that? Biologically they are the same snake.


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## arevenant (Nov 5, 2015)

Yup, I've noticed over my years of keeping that Bredli love a bit more heat than others.
I've kept a few at roughly 35-36c day time temps when living under certain house floor plan restrictions, and they've thrived...


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## pythoninfinite (Nov 5, 2015)

Interesting... quite a few keepers I have known over that past 40 years, from the time I was working in Darwin at the Museum, with the late Graeme Gow, have tried again and again to keep Diamonds in the Territory. It seems, from anecdotal evidence from these very experienced keepers, that Diamonds may survive for between 2 and 4 years, and then kaput... It's the same with Red-bellies and Tigers. Of course I could have just made this up... I have a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about...

I would be very happy to conceded this point if you can show me keepers who have kept and bred Diamonds for a decade or more in the Territory.

"Dated info from old-school keepers" indeed... how patronising you are.

Jamie


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## 5hane (Nov 5, 2015)

pythoninfinite said:


> Interesting... quite a few keepers I have known over that past 40 years, from the time I was working in Darwin at the Museum, with the late Graeme Gow, have tried again and again to keep Diamonds in the Territory. It seems, from anecdotal evidence from these very experienced keepers, that Diamonds may survive for between 2 and 4 years, and then kaput... It's the same with Red-bellies and Tigers. Of course I could have just made this up... I have a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about...
> 
> I would be very happy to conceded this point if you can show me keepers who have kept and bred Diamonds for a decade or more in the Territory.
> 
> ...



There is no argument that you're a wealth of knowledge Jamie and have kept and worked with reptiles longer than I have been alive  but in saying that speculating that DPS is a real condition with the absurd remark of it being 'contagious' with absolutely no evidence to back such claims up apart from 'word of mouth' pretty much shows you are commenting on something you know nothing about. there is no proof whatsoever that it exists, stat. I guess yowies, bigfoot and the loch ness monster exist since there is a handful of people and some 'anecdotal evidence' that say it's so 

here's Dr Shane Simpsons response to my question regarding DPS...

1/19, 10:33pm 
*Shane Simpson*Hi Shane,

In my humble opinion "DPS" does not exist. I see keepers make claims that they had a snake with this yet when I ask what testing was done on it (of any sort) they always say nothing! I strongly suspect that snakes "with" DPS all have something wrong with them and that is it actually a variety of issues but because keepers don't investigate properly an actual diagnosis is never made. It is easier (and cheaper) to say it just had DPS! There is NO medical evidence of this condition. Temperature is also blamed but I have seen plenty of Diamonds that when basking have a body temp higher than 30 degrees... it's a fallacy!Regards,Shane


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## adderboy (Nov 5, 2015)

5hane said:


> speculating that DPS is a real condition with the absurd remark of it being 'contagious' with absolutely no evidence to back such claims up apart from 'word of mouth' pretty much shows you are commenting on something you know nothing about. there is no proof whatsoever that it exists, stat. I guess yowies, bigfoot and the loch ness monster exist since there is a handful of people and some 'anecdotal evidence' that say it's so
> 
> 
> [/LIST]




The way I read all of that, 5hane, it suggests that no one knows yet for sure, even Shane Simpson, and until a definitive diagnosis is available, surely part of the evidence base comprises input from keepers who have experience with the species. Jamie did not put his comments forward as THE answer - he just reported back on other comments he's heard, which may or may not prove to have some basis in fact. Just sharing info; it might not fit your interpretation, but sharing info is the way we learn.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 5, 2015)

pythoninfinite said:


> Interesting... quite a few keepers I have known over that past 40 years, from the time I was working in Darwin at the Museum, with the late Graeme Gow, have tried again and again to keep Diamonds in the Territory. It seems, from anecdotal evidence from these very experienced keepers, that Diamonds may survive for between 2 and 4 years, and then kaput... It's the same with Red-bellies and Tigers. Of course I could have just made this up... I have a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about...
> 
> I would be very happy to conceded this point if you can show me keepers who have kept and bred Diamonds for a decade or more in the Territory.
> 
> ...



Oh dear, playing the victim because people don't agree with you. Very mature.

The information is dated, as can be seen by thousands of people keeping animals outdoors where it was once thought impossible. The advancement of keeping and breeding techniques and methods are also an indicator that the information is dated.


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## adderboy (Nov 5, 2015)

HiramAbiff said:


> ...thousands of people keeping animals outdoors where it was once thought impossible.



Factually incorrect. Many people have kept animals outdoors for decades, and I know quite a few of them. If the advancement of knowledge includes misrepresenting what happened in the past, go for it.


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## 5hane (Nov 5, 2015)

adderboy said:


> The way I read all of that, 5hane, it suggests that no one knows yet for sure, even Shane Simpson, and until a definitive diagnosis is available, surely part of the evidence base comprises input from keepers who have experience with the species. Jamie did not put his comments forward as THE answer - he just reported back on other comments he's heard, which may or may not prove to have some basis in fact. Just sharing info; it might not fit your interpretation, but sharing info is the way we learn.



that's right Jamie's comment doesn't suggest he knows the answer, nor do mine. and what you're saying is he was sharing info so we can all learn, as was I. so what's the point in this comment exactly because I'm at a loss. .we're all just stating our opinions.


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## pythoninfinite (Nov 5, 2015)

Thanks for the support Simon ! 5hane, I have never said that DPS (if it exists) could be contagious, this was simply suggested by at least one other, well experienced with Diamond Pythons, member here some years ago, and I threw that in as a possibility, not a probability. I'm only an observer - I don't have anywhere near enough experience with them myself, but I have seen animals in collections that have died from unusual disease patterns, unlike anything one normally sees from bad husbandry practices with either Diamonds or other other Carpets.

I don't know why HiramA biffo has got his (or her) knickers in a twist and is so aggressive/defensive about this, it's only a discussion about possibilities. I may well be wrong, I may well be right, you can't prove it either way, and with the info to hand, neither can I. Nor am I trying to. Haven't got a clue what you're talking about with regard to keeping outdoors, or what info you think is outdated. My first Carpets in WA were kept outdoors for 15 years quite successfully from 1969. I also had experience (and success) with keeping Scrubbies, Coastals, Diamonds and Eastern Water Dragons outdoors in Perth back in the 60s and 70s - animals which were sent to me in exchange for WA species, including Quokkas, for the Australian Reptile Park, by Eric Worrell. I did bring the Scrubs indoors during winter for the five or six years I had them, but all the others were fine outside through the winter. I should point out that there were few constraints on importing eastern states species into WA at that time.

Biffo, if you want to write a book jam-packed with new and contemporary information for reptile keepers, I'd love to be the first with a copy signed by the author... my old way of doing things clearly doesn't cut it anymore.

Jamie


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## 5hane (Nov 5, 2015)

pythoninfinite said:


> Thanks for the support Simon ! 5hane, I have never said that DPS (if it exists) could be contagious, this was simply suggested by at least one other, well experienced with Diamond Pythons, member here some years ago, and I threw that in as a possibility, not a probability. I'm only an observer - I don't have anywhere near enough experience with them myself, but I have seen animals in collections that have died from unusual disease patterns, unlike anything one normally sees from bad husbandry practices with either Diamonds or other other Carpets.
> 
> 
> 
> Jamie



yes I see I have misread your comment, I seem to have a habit of that. I guess i'll have to eat my words.


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## alexbee (Nov 6, 2015)

Snakes dont need UV the same way humans dont need alcohol.. snakes seem to like UV


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## Ryan-James (Nov 6, 2015)

alexbee said:


> .. snakes seem to like UV



Thats what its about but isnt it? 
You make a commitment to keep these animals so surely you would want to try to provide some enrichment in their day to day lives, Ive found it will always lead to healthier happy stock, better breeders and less problems etc.
Racks will have a place in any serious breeders snake room and will always be easier to manage larger numbers of stock, BUT if you can provide a uv light cycle and a basking area within the racking system and can afford to, I think you have more to gain whether you are housing hatchies, growing juvies or keeping breeders.

Just my 2 cents worth


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 7, 2015)

adderboy said:


> Factually incorrect. Many people have kept animals outdoors for decades, and I know quite a few of them. If the advancement of knowledge includes misrepresenting what happened in the past, go for it.


I'm not "misrepresenting" anything, I think you may have taken the comment out of context. 
30 years ago were there the same number of people successfully keeping and breeding arid species such as shinglebacks in outdoor enclosures in areas that were once thought too humid?

- - - Updated - - -



pythoninfinite said:


> Thanks for the support Simon ! 5hane, I have never said that DPS (if it exists) could be contagious, this was simply suggested by at least one other, well experienced with Diamond Pythons, member here some years ago, and I threw that in as a possibility, not a probability. I'm only an observer - I don't have anywhere near enough experience with them myself, but I have seen animals in collections that have died from unusual disease patterns, unlike anything one normally sees from bad husbandry practices with either Diamonds or other other Carpets.
> 
> I don't know why HiramA biffo has got his (or her) knickers in a twist and is so aggressive/defensive about this, it's only a discussion about possibilities. I may well be wrong, I may well be right, you can't prove it either way, and with the info to hand, neither can I. Nor am I trying to. Haven't got a clue what you're talking about with regard to keeping outdoors, or what info you think is outdated. My first Carpets in WA were kept outdoors for 15 years quite successfully from 1969. I also had experience (and success) with keeping Scrubbies, Coastals, Diamonds and Eastern Water Dragons outdoors in Perth back in the 60s and 70s - animals which were sent to me in exchange for WA species, including Quokkas, for the Australian Reptile Park, by Eric Worrell. I did bring the Scrubs indoors during winter for the five or six years I had them, but all the others were fine outside through the winter. I should point out that there were few constraints on importing eastern states species into WA at that time.
> 
> ...



I'm not getting anything in a knot and I'm not the one who seems to have to go on the attack with the "clever" name combinations regarding my username. Scientific testing through DNA has proved that there is no genetic difference between the Morelia sp. family and they are nothing more than geographical variations of the exact same snake which has evolved it's phenotype to match it's surroundings (Pattern, size, colour)

While it may upset you that I don't want to buy in to the DPS nonsense or the anecdotal evidence produced in an effort to make it so, the above proves that it would be impossible for a pathogen, virus or disease to attack one single geographical variant while magically skipping another variations in the same collection. 

Unfortunately experience doesn't equal fact, I rely on up to date information provided by those with a deep understanding of genetics and ecology rather than old wive's tales and gut feelings. Instead of being offended you should try reading some of the new journal articles on the subject from well known scientists.


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## pinefamily (Nov 8, 2015)

[MENTION=41861]HiramAbiff[/MENTION], I am not intruding into your discussion with Pythoninfinite, but can you point me in the direction of the DNA testing results of the morelia species please? For my own edification, I would like to read this.


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## cement (Nov 8, 2015)

HiramAbiff said:


> Scientific testing through DNA has proved that there is no genetic difference between the Morelia sp. family and they are nothing more than geographical variations of the exact same snake which has evolved it's phenotype to match it's surroundings (Pattern, size, colour)



Please show this proof. I am very interested in this matter, but I am not a cutting edge scientist in the feild of herpetology at the best uni in the world, I am a simple local reptile relocator who deals with hundreds of wild reptiles. This scientific proof ...... it would mean the world to me if I could read it and make my own analysis. Please put this up.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 8, 2015)

Does google not work on either of your computers?


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## Wally (Nov 8, 2015)

HiramAbiff said:


> Does google not work on either of your computers?



That old chestnut.........


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## pinefamily (Nov 8, 2015)

I only asked, because I have never seen any conclusive scientific DNA results which show what you have described. I have used Google on several occasions, even Google Scholar.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 8, 2015)

Sorry, when did I become your personal assistant?
I'll make it even easier for you guys, google "Morelia DNA markers", then read the papers contained within. 

Want me to whip around and give your enclosures a scrub too? Laziness at it's finest, instead of doing research I'll sit and argue the issue even though I'm wrong.....


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## pinefamily (Nov 8, 2015)

"During this study, genes (ND6 and cytochrome b) within the mitochondrial DNA from the carpet python, Morelia spilota, is investigated to see if these could function as a species identification test. Furthermore, phylogenetic relationships based on these genes between and within this snake species is investigated and compared to the taxonomy which is based on morphology. ND6 and cytochrome b both showed a lot of intraspecies variation within the subspecies of the carpet python. The variation between two samples in ND6 is between 1.07% and 6.09%. In cytochrome b this was between 0.72% and 6.82%. In this last gene there was less variation between the samples from the east coast, but more variation between those samples and samples from the rest of Australia. Both genes produced similar trees and could be used for species identification of the carpet python. Although the samples from the east coast are very similar to each other, all other species group separately. These results compared to the taxonomy and unpublished research which assumed there are only two of three subspecies instead of six, it seems like the Morelia spilota can be divided into four subspecies; east coast of Australia, north Australia (Morelia spilota variegata), central Australia (Morelia spilota bredli) and west-south Australia (Morelia spilota imbricata)."

Not exactly proof, my grumpy friend.


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## twistedFrog (Nov 8, 2015)

May I point us all back to the reason for this post, the question asked and not the somehow intangible derivatives of this. IMO I would like to hear everyones opinion, based upon fact, experience or both on the actual question? [MENTION=41977]Hender135[/MENTION] what do you propose to house in the rack? IMO from my experience and from reading a lot on this topic, UV lights will not harm a python, provided they are suitably caged to avoid a python touching them. I am yet though to fully understand what benefit, if any, UV lights has to the health of the animal being housed. I continue the journey as you do to find the facts and evidence and IMO probably the reason you started this thread, the search for any and all information you can find to make an informed decision.
This is not an attempt to prove anyone's opinion wrong or otherwise, just my opinion, to add to all the information on this topic gathered by the OP.


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## pinefamily (Nov 8, 2015)

Thank you for that, Twisted Frog. Yes, the thread was drifting....


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## Wally (Nov 8, 2015)

HiramAbiff said:


> Sorry, when did I become your personal assistant?



Not even if I was bed ridden.

Where did the courtesy of referencing ones argument go?


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## pinefamily (Nov 8, 2015)

Back on the topic of UV lights, while it seems they are not necessary, they are probably not going to hurt either. This seems to be the gist of the thread so far. 
What I would like to add is how the UV lights affect the colour of pythons. In our experience, we have seen both UV and ordinary white heat globes bring out the colours in our pythons. I'd be interested to hear others' experiences on this.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 8, 2015)

Wally said:


> Not even if I was bed ridden.
> 
> Where did the courtesy of referencing ones argument go?



I don't have an argument, merely made a statement that the evidence or lack thereof which was speculated about in this thread is incorrect. 
If people can't be bothered to read the information freely available to them using their own time and effort I'm not going to do it for them, you're free to believe whatever your heart desires.


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## Wally (Nov 8, 2015)

HiramAbiff said:


> If people can't be bothered to read the information freely available to them using their own time and effort I'm not going to do it for them, you're free to believe whatever your heart desires.



Perhaps some of that time you spend on here objecting to others opinions and or observations could be better spent constructing your argument with the relevant references to back them up.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 8, 2015)

Wally said:


> Perhaps some of that time you spend on here objecting to others opinions and or observations could be better spent constructing your argument with the relevant references to back them up.



Or perhaps you could use some initiative and use the time you spend here to get up to speed with the advancement of herpetology? I guess that takes effort though.


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## cement (Nov 8, 2015)

Thanks for bringing my laziness to my attention HiramAbiff!!
I sincerely appreciate all the effort you have so obviously expended on pointing me in the right direction.

"I'll make it even easier for you guys, google "Morelia DNA markers", then read the papers contained within. "

I'm ok with my enclosures, though.. thanks for the offer.


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## Wally (Nov 8, 2015)

HiramAbiff said:


> Or perhaps you could use some initiative and use the time you spend here to get up to speed with the advancement of herpetology? I guess that takes effort though.



Your presumptuous nature reveals much.


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## HiramAbiff (Nov 8, 2015)

Whinge, complain, whinge. 

Anyway, have fun with the thread. I won't be wasting any more of my time reading useless drivel.


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## pinefamily (Nov 8, 2015)

[MENTION=4778]cement[/MENTION], you can see by the quote in my post above that the research on morelia DNA is still a little inconclusive.


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## GBWhite (Nov 9, 2015)

On topic, I think you'll find that it's pretty much accepted that UVA and/or UVB are not required for pythons to maintain good health in captivity.

As for DPS, I'm with the bunch that consider it to be a bit of a furphy. As suggested I think that if it was genuine and contagious that it would affect all within the Morelia sp group and not be limited to those of the southern area of their range. 

Cement, Jamie and Pinefamily,

Off topic (sorry, I couldn't resist...hahaha)

I've attached a link to paper that discusses the use of DN6 gene and cytochrome b (cyt b) as a means to identify and confirm species of the genus Morelia with attention to the Morelia spilota group. It's a bit more detailed and interesting than the one the pinefamily posted the extract from. It's long but well worth the read. I posted it a few months back but you may have missed it.

Have a good look at the Table on 298 and the Results and Discussion on 299. In the table all Morelia sp from northern WA, across the top of NT, through Qld, NSW, Vic and the eastern part of SA are listed together as M. spilota. Half a dozen from western SA and southern WA are listed as sub-species, M spilota imbricata and two specimens from central NT are listed as a separate species. M bredli.

Then have a read of the Results and Discussion.

From what I read it basically suggests that DNA analysis at the present time can identify and confirm the location of specimens from the Morelia sp group, however the question is...Is this enough evidence to split the group into individual species? 

As I mentioned before, what I see as a problem with using mitochondrial DNA sequencing to attempt to identify and confirm species within such a close group as the Morelia, is that there is no set standard to positively confirm elevation to species level within the group. Furthermore, as I stated previously, the wording of the ICNZ Code is open to interpretation however it clearly excludes distribution itself as a character to differentiate taxa. Taxonomic characteristics in combination uniquely distinguish a taxon. So I believe that if DNA is going to be used as one of those characteristics there must be an agreed standard of identified genetic variations before it can be considered as a contributing characteristic defined as uniquely suitable.

Just my two bobs worth....and here's the link.

George. 

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ythons_suitable_for_degraded_forensic_samples


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## pythoninfinite (Nov 9, 2015)

Been away from the computer for a couple of days, looks like the "biffo" continues... Thanks George - I'll have a look at that later today. Despite some of the assumptions made about my supposedly firm (but outdated) beliefs in my earlier comments, I have a totally open mind about things such as DPS, and am very happy to be convinced by evidence either way - I have no vested interests in the matter at all. I was simply putting forward theories which I have HEARD and READ over many years. My only unusual experience with Diamonds occurred while I was keeping a trio of them at the WA Museum back in the 90s. All three died over a period of months from a mysterious, gradual wasting and loss of appetite. They were housed in an enclosure which three Boa constrictors had outgrown. There were certainly no reptile specialist vets in WA at that time to do any followup, and we wouldn't have known what to look for anyway, but my guess now is that it's quite likely that the Diamonds succumbed to a pathogen carried silently by the Boas. (NOTE: to stay safe and avoid criticism, I said "QUITE LIKELY" rather than "DEFINITELY" - this will allow me a bit of wriggle-room if the critics come out in force...) 

Anyway, I have no reason to defend myself against a bad tempered, bad mannered, patronising know-it-all here or anywhere else .

Jamie


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## BredliFreak (Nov 9, 2015)

Humans fear what they don't understand, and fear, like any other emotion can alter your train of thought and make assumptions. People on this thread, or anyone for that matter don't really understand what so-called "DPS" is, so they automatically fear it and make assumptions. Who knows, for now lets not refer to it as anything existent, only possibilities...

As for "do snakes need UV?", although not necessary(as mentioned), you can use it if you want, might cost you a bit more though. Alternatively you could sun them every so often, I guess.

Those are my two cents, buy some chill pills with them


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## pythoninfinite (Nov 10, 2015)

I guess the overarching comment I was making in this thread (and it was quite a way off-topic, I admit...), and probably the DPS thing was an inappropriate subject to align it with, is that _if you don't know what you're looking for, you're unlikely to find it._ It took many researchers years to nail the mysterious symptoms and human deaths to the HIV virus, for example, because the symptoms were wide-ranging and baffling. This work probably cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Research into mysterious reptile disease pathology wouldn't ever get that amount of support or interest, so we are left to make assumptions based on what we suspect rather than what we can prove, because proof takes dedicated people, time, and heaps of money. There are a few fundamentals in reptile keeping that can be regarded as absolute fact, there are many more where a range of opinions might all be appropriate and valid. To speak in absolutes about debatable matters often indicates a closed mind, especially when it is clearly only opinion.

Jamie


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## cement (Nov 10, 2015)

pinefamily said:


> @cement, you can see by the quote in my post above that the research on morelia DNA is still a little inconclusive.


Thanks pinefamily! and thanks GB for the link also. With very little time for the computer because I'm so lazy, having a quick link and even just a peice to read is a bonus!


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## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 10, 2015)

Agree with Bredli regarding the chill pills. 

UV.....I'm in the I don't use it camp, wont hurt anything other than your pocket but I'm not convinced there is much benefit. Have heard of diamonds being kept with success in a cellar with no access to natural light & no UV offered. Allegedly going strong in excess of 20 years. Not sure if that was genuine or not. Mine are 10 years old, had em from hatchies and never used UV. Going strong, female produced a nice clutch of healthy eggs last season.


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