# Hmmmmm...........not RIGHT!



## moosenoose (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm not going to mention names of ppl, but wild caught stuff openly sold gives me the absolute crankys!! It might have been fine back in the 70's, but these days, there is more than enough of these animals for sale on the various markets to justify an across the board ban on harvesting them for the pet trade!

I recently came back from a trip up north and could have bagged a fortunes worth of Gippy dragons, frogs and literally anything else I wanted to stuff in the boot of my car. It's just not right!! :x Hell, lets do a poll!


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## farmdog (Jan 27, 2006)

moosey mate I agree to an extent, but by banning only motivate the black market profiteers from making a killing from selling WC under the nose of DSE/CALM to unsuspecting ppl ( yeah yeah we should be aware of shifty trades at dark Maccas carparks  )


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2006)

I voted yes, as i believe the same as you moose, that there are plenty of good breeders where these animals are readily available for the private trade. 

Lets let sleeping dogs lie and let the wild ones be wild.


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## reptililian (Jan 27, 2006)

> yeah yeah we should be aware of shifty trades at dark Maccas carparks )


Huh? I thought that's how all reptile sales were conducted in NSW?


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## stencorp69 (Jan 27, 2006)

yeah!! Lets ban all eastern staters from own reptiles as well. They give me the (what he said) too, cause they get to own what ever they want. Yeah!!



Sten


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## moosenoose (Jan 27, 2006)

The blackmarket is already there Dan. It's like earning cash, you can do it the right way and work for it, or you can do it the easy and illegal way and rob a servo! I'd sooner have a clear conscience and keep things above board. Wild caught stuff is an anachronism these days! Sure the hobby had to all start off like that, but not these days - surely not! :?


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## moosenoose (Jan 27, 2006)

stencorp69 said:


> yeah!! Lets ban all eastern staters from own reptiles as well. They give me the (what he said) too, cause they get to own what ever they want. Yeah!!
> 
> 
> 
> Sten



Umm no...........not what I'm saying


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## Dicco (Jan 27, 2006)

I see no problem with the collection of animals in WA, but they Should *not* just be able to flog wild caught animals off, I believe that Wild Caught should only be used to breed and not just get sold on to some guy with a wad of cash. I have nothing against those who takle from permit in WA, and some of them are great people, just remember WA had no legal herps, only through wild collecting could they set up a Captive Wildlife Trade, but I don't see the need to sell large amounts to the eastern states untill the hobby over there is established, but small amount being exported from WA is understandable.

Not trying to be a smart ass here, but those of you who oppose wild collection of Reptiles, do you live in housing estates?


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## moosenoose (Jan 27, 2006)

hehe No, I don't live in a housing estate Dicco, but you've raised some points I haven't considered before. Still doesn't cut it for me though, I can't help it if they're a little behind the times (literally) hehehe


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## stencorp69 (Jan 27, 2006)

> Still doesn't cut it for me though, I can't help it if they're a little behind the times (literally) hehehe



Ouch!! Although true Ouch!!


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## redline (Jan 27, 2006)

ban them all


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## Dicco (Jan 27, 2006)

At least give a reason for your answer :roll:


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## redline (Jan 28, 2006)

ok. b/c i think it's not right.


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## Sdaji (Jan 28, 2006)

I don't think collecting should be banned, but I don't think they're going about it in the right way. I think anyone should be allowed to get a collect permit, but it should be expensive to do so. I believe it would be best if all states allowed the collection of animals (obviously there would be certain areas and in some cases species which would be excepted). Anyone who has been keeping for a reasonable number of years, and has had a reasonable number of animals during that time (perhaps this would best be measured using the Barker 'Snake Year' scale) could apply for a permit to collect a certain number of reptiles from a certain area, subject to the department's approval. The cost of the permit, per animal, not per person, would be around 50-100% more than you could buy a captive animal for, thus, only people with a genuine interest would bother and the numbers collected would be low as anyone just wanting a pet snake would find it hugely cheaper and more convenient to buy one. No one would use such a system to make a profit and anyone with a good reason to collect wild animals could do so. Since it wouldn't be a system you could use for profit, it's unlikely anyone would use it in a way which would be harmful to a population. Those with a particular interest in working with a particular population or saving individuals from death due to building developments etc could do so. I very strongly dislike the situation where a small number of people are allowed to collect animals and sell them on. It's basically a license to print money and completely unfair to the vast majority of keepers, who are left with the choice of either supporting one of these lucky few 'elite' collectors or going without reptiles. Yes, the WA situation is a difficult one and there is no easy solution. I dislike the way it's being done there (it's insane to have a system allowing one person to go into one area and take as many animals as they like within a small amount of time), but there are many cases where collecting wild animals is a good thing, as long as it's done responsibly.


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## jnglgrl (Jan 28, 2006)

I think it should be banned, unless the animals injured in some way and wouldn't survive in the wild anyway but i think that there's enough already in captivity


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## Reptilegirl (Jan 28, 2006)

> I see no problem with the collection of animals in WA, but they Should not just be able to flog wild caught animals off, I believe that Wild Caught should only be used to breed and not just get sold on to some guy with a wad of cash.



i agree dicco!!

Megz


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## rockman (Jan 28, 2006)

Better not discuss this to much , or you might get the thread locked up again ! Nothing like open discussion or free speach :lol:


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## lutzd (Jan 28, 2006)

No Rocky, there's nothing wrong with open discussion. It's only when someone starts attacking/abusing someone else or otherwise breaking the site rules that we step in. We would like nothing better than to not have to moderate any threads, assuming all members could behave like civilised people and argue logically instead of attacking others. ah well, we can dream, can't we??? :?


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## rockman (Jan 28, 2006)

Lutzd , what would you have left to do with all your spare time then ? You would have to take up fishing or something if we where all civilized , maybe you could go fishing with TrueBlue


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## lutzd (Jan 28, 2006)

Good point! Ah, what the heck - go for it! 






[kidding!]


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## foxysnake (Jan 28, 2006)

Personally I think it became of a nescessity over there, as its been mentioned there is no importing of reptiles into the state - how else would they get a pet reptile industry up and running? Other than catch them from the wild? For people to say there's enough in captivity already IMO is just a comment of stupidity, the whole point over there is catch them from the wild so there will be enough in captivity to breed from, and if excess is sold to the southern states, so what? - At least some of us will be able to buy some gorgeous pure-blooded W.A. animals. It seems like consistantly the same group of whingers about certain topics such as this or the GTP topic just keep things like this going over and over.


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## stencorp69 (Jan 28, 2006)

To help bring understanding to this issue I'll raise a couple of points. 1. WA keepers are not allowed to import any Pythons and we can only import other reptiles that are native to the state (and on the CALM list). 2. NSW had a huge number of keepers who "illegally" took Wild Caught animals before they had an amnesty and then made keeping legal. In fact if it wasn't for the people breaking the law and keeping WC animals NSW keepers wouldn't be in the great position they are now. 3. Import Export between Eastern states give a much higher pool to breed, trade and spread stock around and given that VIC has allowed the keeping of reptiles for so long certainly reduces the need for WC animals needed for the pet trade. Additionally they are allowed to own animals not native to the local area which again spreads the opportunity for choice and livestock.

Sten


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## krusty (Jan 28, 2006)

stencorp69 said:


> yeah!! Lets ban all eastern staters from own reptiles as well. They give me the (what he said) too, cause they get to own what ever they want. Yeah!!
> 
> 
> 
> Sten



hey sten,
well you could always move , so then you can keep what ever you want. lol :lol:


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## instar (Jan 28, 2006)

It might be a good idea to put the brakes on collecting certain species until more is known about them, their numbers, breeding etc.


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## ad (Jan 28, 2006)

So why dont you people get all upset with the NT Govt as well?
They have allowed wild collecting for years.

Is the main reason because Takers profit? Jealous maybe?
Or is it concern for the environment and snake populations? Ingnorance Possibly - you are totally speculating rather than knowing populations?
What other reason?

Unlike the NT - Wa will stop wild collecting once they believe captive populations will thrive.
Snakes NT and now Reedy Reptiles profit from w/c animals - they dont have the expense that WA collectors have - they just get them from relocations and sell them.
I havent heard one thread anti NT laws - Why?


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## stencorp69 (Jan 28, 2006)

> well you could always move , so then you can keep what ever you want. lol



I'm definately considering moving back


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## moosenoose (Jan 28, 2006)

foxysnake said:


> Personally I think it became of a nescessity over there, as its been mentioned there is no importing of reptiles into the state - how else would they get a pet reptile industry up and running? Other than catch them from the wild? For people to say there's enough in captivity already IMO is just a comment of stupidity, the whole point over there is catch them from the wild so there will be enough in captivity to breed from, and if excess is sold to the southern states, so what? - At least some of us will be able to buy some gorgeous pure-blooded W.A. animals. It seems like consistantly the same group of whingers about certain topics such as this or the GTP topic just keep things like this going over and over.



That has to be the most hypocritical thing I?ve ever read coming from a person who supposedly cares for the wellbeing of these animals in the wild! On one hand everyone screams ?We?re thinking of the animals! We?re doing the right thing by buying captive bred and leaving the wild populations do their thing!!? But by hearing you comment like this, and justifying the legal plundering from the bush makes me really start to think twice about what your priorities are!

There is such a thing called an ecosystem, and by removing certain elements of it all the time, only achieves in unbalances the scales!






ad said:


> So why dont you people get all upset with the NT Govt as well?
> They have allowed wild collecting for years.
> 
> Is the main reason because Takers profit? Jealous maybe?
> ...



I don?t hear about the NT laws Ad, give me some time though and I?m sure I could have a nice big gripe  It?s certainly got nothing to do with jealously either. I?d love to know what sort of controls are in place to prevent these ?takers? endangering the naturally conceived populations of certain species. You can?t sit there for a minute and tell me they are taking them for the well being of these animals, it?s got a hell of a lot to do with money, plain and simple. :?


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## ad (Jan 28, 2006)

> I?d love to know what sort of controls are in place to prevent these ?takers? endangering the naturally conceived populations of certain species.


Hi Moose,
If this is your main concern, Im sure the WA Govt have made the decision based on many a white coat's studies.
Yes money is made (earnt) by the takers, in a system devised by the Govt. to give WA herpers access to animals.
They saw that by capturing their states native animals and by taking enough to ensure the captive market will continue, they did not want to import possible disease from the East so banned importation.
This system will go on as long as the white coats believe their objective has been reached. Im sure they are monitoring quantities taken.
The govt had to offer incentive for people to become takers - even with the 'rich rewards' being touted - there are still only a handful.
The people that will profit are the ones who buy the wc breeders - adapt them to captivity to breed and sell offspring. 
Cheers
Ad


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 28, 2006)

Here is a simple question for you moosenoose.
Do you think that any of the species legally collected here in W.A are now under threat as a species by the collecting practises as they stand at present.?


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## peterjohnson64 (Jan 28, 2006)

I am certainly not knowledgeable enough about reptile science to either agree or disagree with the wild caught stuff. In theory, it is terrible to see these animals taken. But conversely, it is better to remove incentives for NSW people to drive to WA to steal them themselves. People much smarter than me made this decision. Probably the closes thing I can compare it to is Prawn Fishermen in the Spencer Gulf. They are taking HEAPS of wild caught prawns but they are confident that they are not affecting wild populations. If they do take too many then guess what, they don't have mult million dollar business any more (each prawn licence is worth about $6 million - tuna ones in the hundreds of millions). Now before you start going on about prawns not being reptiles they are still animals that we are taking from the wild in massive numbers without affecting long term wild populations (according to the spin doctors anyway)

We could also look at an animal such as Eastern Water Dragons. If you collected a dominant male EWD then there is every chance that another male will then take it's place. This other male could well have lost its life to the dominant male in a territorial battle. So, by collecting either of those males you haven't really affected the wild population. This is exactly how I got my male. He was handed in to a wildlife resue service and was not able to be released. By removing an animal from the wild, you then reduce competition for resources, and perhaps allow for a new animal to take its place that would have otherwise perished. 

Just my humble unqualified opinion


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 28, 2006)

*A little food for thought.*
For 40 thousands years the natives have harvested pythons and lizards for food here in the Pilbara. If there were only ten different tribes in W.A and each tribe were only to eat a number of lets say of 2 pythons a week (which in reality would be many more) then over a one year period they would have harvested in total 1040 snakes including many that would have been gravid. In a thousand years they would have harvested 1 040 000, in 40 thousand years of burning land and eating snakes it would be over 44 million snake killed. But surprise, surprise, BHPs and Woma?s etc are still very, common. 
Why? They have more than one hatchling to compensate for predatory species that we are part of.
10 licensed takers couldn?t wipe these species out by wild collecting even if they tried and most natives do not hunt snakes for food any more.
I am not trying to rub people up the wrong way over this and I do believe that many people who are concerned only have good intentions. I do believe however that a few people are just not aware of the reality of the situation.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jan 28, 2006)

GTP prices & locality...
W.A collectors...
Hybrids & Intergrades...
Government & politics...
Race & Religion...

ARE ALL VERY OLD NEWS. 
Can't we find a NEW subject to debate ???

How about Beer vs Bourbon


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## peterjohnson64 (Jan 28, 2006)

They don't make a "Blue Tongue Bourbon"


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## Rossagon (Jan 28, 2006)

Beer gets me bloated, but i can't stay away from the stuff!!!!


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## stencorp69 (Jan 28, 2006)

> A little food for thought.
> For 40 thousands years the natives have harvested pythons and lizards for food here in the Pilbara. If there were only ten different tribes in W.A and each tribe were only to eat a number of lets say of 2 pythons a week (which in reality would be many more) then over a one year period they would have harvested in total 1040 snakes including many that would have been gravid. In a thousand years they would have harvested 1 040 000, in 40 thousand years of burning land and eating snakes it would be over 44 million snake killed. But surprise, surprise, BHPs and Woma?s etc are still very, common.
> Why? They have more than one hatchling to compensate for predatory species that we are part of.
> 10 licensed takers couldn?t wipe these species out by wild collecting even if they tried and most natives do not hunt snakes for food any more.
> I am not trying to rub people up the wrong way over this and I do believe that many people who are concerned only have good intentions. I do believe however that a few people are just not aware of the reality of the situation.



Not to mention Road Kill destroys more reptiles than yuo guys take. Its hypocracy to complain about what we are doing in the West when Eastern Staters did then same thing (only illegally) to get their hobby going.

Sten

PS I'm treading very lightly today so I don't upset anyone who may or may not export out of the state


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## moosenoose (Jan 28, 2006)

That was my concern Ad, but after what I read from PilbaraPythons & stencorp69, I can understand Takers probably make very little impact on population numbers. You certainly aren't rubbing people up the wrong way Pilbara, I appreciate such an informative response, it has given me food for thought


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## peterjohnson64 (Jan 28, 2006)

Should re re-start the poll now?


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

stencorp69 said:


> Not to mention Road Kill destroys more reptiles than yuo guys take. Its hypocracy to complain about what we are doing in the West when Eastern Staters did then same thing (only illegally) to get their hobby going.
> 
> Sten
> 
> PS I'm treading very lightly today so I don't upset anyone who may or may not export out of the state



Not sure about the roadkill factor, recently in my drive from sydney to darwin, i saw one roadkill snake the whole trip, and i didnt see any that were decomposed or been on the side of the road for a while so it didnt seem like a common thing to be happening.


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## steve6610 (Jan 28, 2006)

all i can say is that if it wasn't for w/c reptiles then NOBODY would have any reptiles in their collection, it's time all the goody shoes thought of how they managed to get reptiles for privite collections in the first place, come on, get real, every living reptile came from w/c reptiles, 

 do i get a gold card now, :wink: 

cheers,
steve.........


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

I think everyone understands that Steve, in which we are all grateful for no matter what state they are from. But the main argument is that most people feel that enough reptiles have been taken from the wild now to sustain the industry.


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## ad (Jan 28, 2006)

> that most people feel that enough reptiles have been taken from the wild now


Who? Based on what figures?


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## junglemad (Jan 29, 2006)

To the original poster of this thread, you have a right to sell your pythons to whomever you like. If you want to sell them to WA herpers only then so be it.

On the collection of specimens.I see nothing wrong with collection of wild snakes if you are able to collect by law and you don't totally harvest animals from an area and denude it. Are there strict guidelines governing amounts and the areas for collection? 
The earlier point about the NT releasing rescued snakes to collectors was a good one too, instead of releasing them to an uncertain future. In other states as well this should happen to create great breeding stock for collectors prepared to take them on and care for them 

As Ad said . What figures are we talking here ? 
How many WA herpers have permissions to collect and how many are they collecting per year? Are any species threatened by this collection?


ON the point of indigenous occupation of the Pilbara. Over the last 40,000 years many species of reptiles became extinct through Aboriginal intervention either by hunting or fire setting. What may be good for Banksia reproduction is hardly a good thing for pythons.Perhaps Womas and Blackheads don't taste as sweet or are better at fire drill.

I agree that we are lucky in NSW to have access to many fine animals and it seems a shame that you herpers can't import what you like into Western Australia from the Eastern States. Perhaps this will change in the future when the hobby is stronger and the danger of disease is no longer an issue.

cheers


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## foxysnake (Jan 29, 2006)

I don't believe I'm hypocritical, as I see it WA is going through what all the other states went through before it came illegal to obtain wild animals - at least CALM has made it possible by throughly keeping an eye on what numbers are taken from where, and stopping people from taking animals from any areas that they feel have had enough animals removed. At least that can be said, it's common knowledge of certain areas that have been almost completely stripped of certain species of not just snakes but reptiles in general, its good to see that the wild collections in WA are governed. I'm sure there was a link to CALM explaining it all properly, I just can't remember where I saw the link.

By the way JandC_reptiles I prefer beer over bourbon, and a good Smirnoff will take the place of beer for me anyday. Go the XXXX and smrinoff black (drool..  )anyday!


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## stencorp69 (Jan 29, 2006)

> do i get a gold card now,



You do from me


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## moosenoose (Jan 29, 2006)

Teamsherman said:


> I think everyone understands that Steve, in which we are all grateful for no matter what state they are from. But the main argument is that most people feel that enough reptiles have been taken from the wild now to sustain the industry.



This is exactly what I was thinking Sherms. So I guess in reality, if I ever find a GTP or RSP in the wild I shouldn't feel one bit of guilt when I stuff it in a sack and take it  :lol: (Right, I'm off to iron ridge hehe)


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## _popp_ (Jan 29, 2006)

> Not sure about the roadkill factor, recently in my drive from sydney to darwin, i saw one roadkill snake the whole trip, and i didnt see any that were decomposed or been on the side of the road for a while so it didnt seem like a common thing to be happening.



I would assume roadkill wouldnt last to long,with the amount of animals around that would love a free feed.Aswell how many roads did you travell off the main drag?

Road killed reptiles would be a fairly substantial figure,i would think it would be alot higher than 10 collectors could dk they can go rape &amp; pilaging but dont they need something to hold them in?I would think that most collectors are inhibited by space &amp; enclosures available,even in plastic tubs therewould still be a limit dont ya think?

I have seen maybe 10-20 ads for animals ffrom WA forsale to eastern states over the time it has been running,all these animals appear to have been in good health &amp; often been in captivity for over 3-6mths.

It would cost a fortune in enclosures &amp; cages to take large numbers of animals &amp; something i beleive alot are over looking.I think it has been in theory setup well &amp; find it amusing to see the amount of grief over legal collecting,as has been said befor NT thrive on it.

Cheers popp.


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## womas4me (Jan 29, 2006)

Teamsherman, you would be right and wrong with your not seeing many roadkills. 

All animals are part of a food chain, a dead animal on an open road is extremely easy prey for monitors and raptors. So consequently roadkills in my experience only seem to last a day or two before being consumed, dragged away of picked up and flown away. 

Also, herp movements are largley dictated by environmental factors, i could be possible you were going through areas at the wrong time to see evidence of movement ie roadkills.

IF WA could import reptiles the collectors license would probably not have been bought in. I have spoken with numerous parties in the WA herp scene and i would expect to see some species removed from the collectors lists in the future and other species added. It isn't an open ended system where things just continue indefinately, but it still evolving. It hasn't even been going for 3 years yet ( since March 03 ) so to say that enough animals are in captivity to self sustain itself with a ban on imports is jumping the gun..


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## Sdaji (Jan 29, 2006)

_popp_ said:


> It would cost a fortune in enclosures & cages to take large numbers of animals & something i beleive alot are over looking.I think it has been in theory setup well & find it amusing to see the amount of grief over legal collecting,as has been said befor NT thrive on it.
> 
> Cheers popp.



Oh please. How much do your enclosures cost? Have you seen their animals' prices? Even the cheap animals they are selling cost more than the enclosures they'd be housed in! I know people who breed womas in plastic tubs, they're not expensive to house. If they sell womas for $3,000 (check their prices!), they aren't going to have to sell too many to buy enough enclosures to house everything. An enclosure only needs to be purchased once, if they're keeping their animals for 1-6 months or so before selling them, a $20 tub would be a pretty negligible expense in comparison to the number of animals that could be captured, housed in it temporarily and then sold. Okay, womas are one of the more expensive species, but they often advertise their "cheap" stuff (stimsoni etc) for $300 or so. The take permits are as good as a license to print money. I'm not saying the people who have them are necessarily evil or deserve scorn; good luck to anyone who can make some money for themself, but I don't think we need to be giving them any sympathy when it comes to their financial situations. Of course, while some are going about things responsibly, and that's great, some genuinely are irresponsible scum who deserve nothing but contempt.

On the overall issue of WA collecting, it is in everyones' best interests (including the reptiles) for legal collecting to occur. I don't like the way it's being done, but it's a lot better than no collecting being done at all. I'm not sure why people get so upset about it. Most of us regularly eat wild caught animals, particularly seafood. Some of us happily eat them every day, some of us frequently go out and catch our own. Each fish, crab, prawn etc etc we eat is taken from the wild and eaten once. Someone like me will eat hundreds of fish, dozens of crabs and countless prawns each year, among other wild caught animals. Put this into the perspective of taking wild reptiles! A very keen (and rich) reptile keeper may aquire a couple of dozen reptiles in a very big year. Few people would buy more than 10-20 reptiles in an average year, most reptile keepers may buy 1-10 per year (often none) and probably none at all would buy as many individual wild caught reptiles as I eat individual wild caught animals. I'm sure reptiles would rather be collected and cared for as cherished pets than be cooked up and eaten like all those yummy squid and kangaroos I eat. If we viewed reptiles as we do fish, we would probably be buying them at the markets at around $20-$30 per kg (a childreni might be worthvery roughly $10-$30 and of course it would already be skinned and gutted) and no one would think there was any problem. Incidentally, there's a local Asian food market at which sells frozen snakes, gutted and skinned. They have them sitting there in plain view in the freezer. I haven't worked out what species they are and have no idea where they're coming from, but considering that a few people have been sliced up in the alley behind the place (a couple have been reported on the news, sometimes the locals know about it but it doesn't get reported, I used to use the alley as a short cut but after seeing bits of a sliced up person which were never reported, I decided to walk the long way from then on!), I haven't been game to poke my nose in too far. If you want to whinge, complaining about WA collecting for the pet trade is probably the wrong place to be doing it.


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## Retic (Jan 29, 2006)

I certainly don't think that and like the exotics issue when you talk face to face with people their opinions seem to change markedly from the one they show 'in public'.
The number of animals taken by the majority of collectors would have an almost zero impact on the population and the environment as a whole, an average bushfire would be far more destructive. 



ad said:


> > that most people feel that enough reptiles have been taken from the wild now
> 
> 
> Who? Based on what figures?


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## stencorp69 (Jan 29, 2006)

> On the overall issue of WA collecting, it is in everyones' best interests (including the reptiles) for legal collecting to occur. I don't like the way it's being done, but it's a lot better than no collecting being done at all. I'm not sure why people get so upset about it.



Me neither and I just don't get why their is so much hypocracy when all reptiles originated from the wild at sometime.


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## Sdaji (Jan 29, 2006)

boa said:


> The number of animals taken by the majority of collectors would have an almost zero impact on the population and the environment as a whole, an average bushfire would be far more destructive.
> 
> [



An average feral cat would probably be more destructive than a collector.


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## steve6610 (Jan 29, 2006)

> You do from me



thats great, what does it get me, a couple b & w bhp's, a couple different pairs of w.a. stimmys, 
lol, 



> I think everyone understands that Steve, in which we are all grateful for no matter what state they are from. But the main argument is that most people feel that enough reptiles have been taken from the wild now to sustain the industry.



how can you say that, enough have been caught, how many c/b w.a. reptiles have you been offered? how many have been offered for sale? come on, the only reason you have said anything is that you want some left for you to catch, lol, 



> So I guess in reality, if I ever find a GTP or RSP in the wild I shouldn't feel one bit of guilt when I stuff it in a sack and take it (Right, I'm off to iron ridge hehe)




in my opinion almost everybody would if they thought they could get away with it, lol, bit hard hiding a gtp for long, lol, 

cheers,
steve........


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## hornet (Jan 29, 2006)

collection should not be banned completely, as someone else said, you should be only able 2 collect 2 use for breeding not just 2 make a quick buck, i wuld love 2 c all states have some sort of collection permit in place, strictly for breeding purposes, the collected animals should not be sold, only their progeny.
John


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## ihaveherps (Jan 29, 2006)

how come we only seem to see the same species always being sold from WA? 
-Womas
-BHP's
-Stimmies
-carpets

Are the collectors taking perthensis and wheeleri, and other herps more rare in private collections?


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