# Free Handling



## MrFireStorm (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi all,

Just putting a question out there to everyone.

Ignoring all States regulations etc......

What are your thoughts of free handling venomous snakes in public????

Cheers
Darron


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## Tassie97 (Mar 4, 2011)

umm yeah those vens that where on the news they were complete like had venom glands and fangs ?


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## MrFireStorm (Mar 4, 2011)

Tassie97 said:


> umm yeah those vens you had on the news they were complete like had venom glands and fangs ?




Ummm, yeah they did.....BUT it was not me


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## Tassie97 (Mar 4, 2011)

ok well that was a bit to cuddly for me but if there is a barrier between the public and the snakes (pit) then i am fine with it but walking around the streets with a tiger snake around your neck i would say no


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## Jonno from ERD (Mar 4, 2011)

G'day Darron,

I'll jump in before this thread descends into turmoil.

Freehandling in public, in my opinion, is grossly irresponsible. I can freehandle until the cows come home, there's no "art" to it, just an understanding of the animal and reading body language. The problem is the message it sends - you want people to leave any sort of public demonstration thinking "OK, snakes aren't terrible creatures, but they still deserve respect". You can demonstrate how calm they can be without taking unecessary risks that are easily copied by impressionable children. 

I have noticed that most of those that freehandle in front of a crowd are very much "showmen", who enjoy the ego-boost of being on stage doing something dangerous and having people comment on how brave they are. There are notable exceptions to this, such as Neville Burns and Ian Renton - both of whom have paid the price, too.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 4, 2011)

I do love an old fashioned snake show,
complete with ooohs and ahhhs..

but I spose,

like Jonno says, 
who's gonna think of the friggen children IF they get bitten,,IF they copy what they see at a show??

(Look at video game they play and tell they copy what they see.)

Of course it's an ego boost for the showman, 
any showman I would imagine.

If the fella/woman doing the show is good enough, then the right message will get through, freehandling or not.
JMO


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## Waterrat (Mar 4, 2011)

ssssnakeman said:


> I do love an old fashioned snake show,
> complete with ooohs and ahhhs..



There is some magic to it. When I was young and impressionable, I met Vic Hayden, a showman working the the Australiana Village at Wilberforce, just out of Sydney, He free-handled everything! I was mesmerized as I watched him lifting a taipan with both hands and putting it around his neck ... the audience went ahhhhh (it bit him on the shoulder). I was also mesmerized when we couldn't put him into a car after serious tiger snake bite a year later. He was stiff as a board, we couldn't bend his knees, to put him on the seat. He died not long after.


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## Wild~Touch (Mar 4, 2011)

IMHO...there are carnival/circus showmen....then there are the OTHERS (very rare almost extinct.) 

Luckily I've had the priviledge to have seen a few examples.

_The first qualification should be silver hair .(this is said in jest.)_


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 4, 2011)

That sux Michael, was he a friend of yours?
The law of averages would come into play sooner or later I would imagine.
Injuries in the workplace are common and usually avoidable.


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## Tassie97 (Mar 4, 2011)

well i think the handling of those snakes on the news was totally inappropriate having tiger snakes wrapped around your arm and neck letting kids pat it if you are displaying vens dont treat them like pythons around kids how many of those "Handlers" have been bitten ? if you handle them correctly and responsibly that wont happen unless under a freak circumstance just what i think


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## imported_Varanus (Mar 4, 2011)

Sounds like that handler "on the news" was Mr Venomoid?


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## Tassie97 (Mar 4, 2011)

imported_Varanus said:


> Sounds like that handler "on the news" was Mr Venomoid?


 is he in tasmania ?


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## pythons73 (Mar 4, 2011)

Well clowns should be left at the circus,free handling at home etc if you have studied the snake etc is fine,however in a public show,IMO it doesnt matter who you are-how many years experience you have,should NEVER do it when theres children around,otherwise they will think if they came across any snake,its ok as the dude at the reptile show did it.Yes you can study the body language of a snake and realise "sometimes"if its nasty or about to bite.But not always the snake abites by the rules,hence why i got biten by a red belly..


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## MrFireStorm (Mar 4, 2011)

So far the comments have been pretty much the same as my thinking as well. I personally think it is irresponsible and against many workplace risk assessments to even allow it. IMO, regardless of how much you "know" the snake it would only take a sneeze or spooking for the snake to instinctivly bite and in most cases probably on the face.

Tassie97.....I am not just referring to the snakes on the news...I am talking about at anytime in the public.

Imported_Varanus......Nice guess but soz NO.....I would try everything possible to stop said person showing in Tassie....hee hee

Please keep your views coming.

(this is not being used in any political or reporting cases....Just getting others views/opinions)


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## whyme (Mar 4, 2011)

I freehandle all my vens, but in the privacy of my own snake room. Experience doesnt mean you wont get tagged. I have'nt seen the news report that you're talking about, but if some guy is wrapping these things over his arms and showing everybody in town, he should have his head read. It takes a lot of respect and smarts to freehandle vens. Obviously said person is lacking these!


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## Tassie97 (Mar 4, 2011)

well i think it is ok if they are showing it in a pit for a bit then in a bag but not letting it near people and just tailing it not wrapping it around your neck :shock:


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## snakehandler (Mar 5, 2011)

Today the shows are more about education than the shock value and the entertainment. While most competent people can free-handle, those who have and understanding of Occupational Health and Safety, child psychology and basic education skills will know that the message does not get in through shock value, it gets in through the quality of the presenter. Yes we are trying to educate the public that the snakes are not out to get you etc....but we are also trying to get out there that a person is most at risk when trying to interact with them, practice what you preach!


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## eracer (Mar 5, 2011)

Is it possible for someone to post a link. I have not seen the footage?


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## Tassie97 (Mar 5, 2011)

sorry shouldn't of posted the link


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## snakelover33 (Mar 5, 2011)

i am a 12 year old girl and u personally love free handling venomous snakes tigers,red belly,browns i love them all


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 5, 2011)

Snakehandler, please define competent. Do we see someone freehandling and say they're competent and only deem them incompetent when they get bitten for the first time? A lot of competent snakehandlers (widely respected experts) have been tagged by vens. Freehandling is asking for trouble in my opinion, however it's an individuals choice, but as someone who loves snakes and trys to instill a healthy respect in the people I come across daily who fear or hate them, it would be very dissapointing to see someone bitten in front of a crowd and undo all that through irresponsible behaviour. If people want to free handle fine just do it when your cleaning enclosures ETC


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## -Katana- (Mar 5, 2011)

God...this brings back a really bad memory!

I was at the Ettamogah pub with friends (well over 10 years ago now) and we decided to look in the snake house.
We looked at the different vens. and I noticed that one of their tiger snakes had very dry skin and cloudy eyes and it looked dead.
The other two in the enclosure looked "ok".
I went up to the keeper in his office to ask about the snake and ask if it was ok.
Long story short the keeper opened the enclosure and reached in to give the "dead snake" a poke to prove it was ok and he got bitten on the wrist by one curled in the blind corner next to the door.
He refused to let us call 000 and went back to his office.
A little shaken we looked at the rest of the reps. but on the way out we passed his office to notice that he was passed out on the floor and had lost bladder control and his young son trying to revive him and in hysterics.
We called 000 and managed to keep him alive until the ambulance arrived and tried our best to calm his son.
I disgraced myself by vomiting and almost feinting once the Ambo's arrived.


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## Waterrat (Mar 5, 2011)

Free-handling vens in private is a choice many keepers take. If you know your snakes and can read their behaviour (or lack of it) it's often safer than tailing or using a hook. Showing off to mates and bravado public demonstrations are different thing. And of course venomoid demos are just for the lunatics.


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 5, 2011)

Akwendi, Thats exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about


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## -Katana- (Mar 5, 2011)

It still gives me nightmares to this day Steve and as a result I just can't cope with being around the vens...at all.


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## longqi (Mar 5, 2011)

Everything depends on the situation
Until third party insurance went crazy I had a RBB that was a pussy cat
I used this all up and down the east coast in displays

Here I have a pure white cobra that is calming down beautifully and will be used in about two months I hope
But Cobras are very different to Aussie vens in that they can only strike forward and down +- 10%, and they signal their strike; so they are much more predictable and easy to play with
A coastal taipan etc can virtually tie itself in knots to get you from anywhere

So long as the public is safe and the animal has not been defanged or taped/wired up,and if the handler simply knows his snake very well, I see no problem with it if done correctly


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## LiasisKing (Mar 5, 2011)

snakelover33 said:


> i am a 12 year old girl and u personally love free handling venomous snakes tigers,red belly,browns i love them all


 
and where do you get access to these venemous snakes ? or do you just walk through the bush and play with whatever you find ? not being rude, just curious ?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 5, 2011)

Thanks Longqi, this is sort of what I was trying to say.
If done correctly, it should not be a problem.


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## waruikazi (Mar 5, 2011)

LiasisKing said:


> and where do you get access to these venemous snakes ? or do you just walk through the bush and play with whatever you find ? not being rude, just curious ?



I did when i was younger than her (about 8). Two friends and i went out in the school yard after watching Harry Butler and caught some brown snakes. I was the only one smart enough to not get tagged.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 5, 2011)

Me to Gordo, Harry Butler has a lot to answer for, as does Eric Worrell and even you Barny


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## waruikazi (Mar 5, 2011)

ssssnakeman said:


> Me to Gordo, Harry Butler has a lot to answer for, as does Eric Worrell and even you Barny



Lol 20 years apart but both doing the same stupid things! It was another 5 years after that before i picked another one up though.


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## MrFireStorm (Mar 5, 2011)

eracer said:


> Is it possible for someone to post a link. I have not seen the footage?



Prefer not to post any links to the footage as previously posted this thread is not for naming/shaming or political reporting.

Suffice to say that the footage being referred to was on local television reporting a reptile display. The footage showed persons free-handling tiger snakes and copperheads to the point the snakes were basically resting their heads on the demonstartors shoulder/neck. Views of tigers being cuddled like human babies was also shown and tigers coiled around necks looking back at the handler.


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## snakehandler (Mar 5, 2011)

Competent:
adjective
having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully : a highly competent surgeon | make sure the firm is competent to carry out the work.
• (of a person) efficient and capable : an infinitely competent mother of three.
• acceptable and satisfactory, though not outstanding : she spoke quite competent French.
• (chiefly of a court or other body) accepted as having legal authority to deal with a particular matter 
• Biology & Medicine capable of performing the normal function effectively.

It has nothing to do with bites, but a person who is capable of handling the animal with safety.....a bite is a risk we all take when handling animals, not just reptiles, when you do it for a job, then it is common knowledge that bites happen, it is unfortunate but many people who work with animals eventually get bitten for a variety of reasons.

What you do in the privacy of your own home is up to you, but to display such disregard for safety in public is just being a cowboy, an ego trip, and mostly to set up bragging rights! For the safety of those working with venomous snakes they should not be freehandling, I know for a fact that should a bite occur and an investigation is undertaken, if a person was freehandling then it is highly unlikely for them to be covered by insurance! Today it is not regarded as best practice, especially when there are other safer methods to hold venomous animals without stressing the animals while also increasing the safety to the handler.


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## spotlight (Mar 5, 2011)

yes like most keepers who choose to keep vens i also free handle mine,but i only do it with snakes ive raised from a hatchling because they are easier to read.
but i would never free handle in public its to misleading to the public and as posted before its only for showmen ( (who just want to look like heros and dont give a pinch about the snakes).
its people like that who will destroy it for the rest of us in the future by bringing in harder rules on keeping vens.

i hate walking around my local shopping centre and seeing a child with his/her first pet snake hanging out of his/ her pocket just waiting for someone to panic and have a stroke just imagine what that will do for the future of keeping any snake?


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## eracer (Mar 6, 2011)

OK....spanner in the works.

The general consensus here is that free handling vens is a choice we make. Those of us that can do it, do do it for whatever reason, but we should only do it in the privacy of our home.

The major question here is should it be done in public, and the response is 'no' because it sends the wrong message to children that it is OK to play with 'deadly snakes'. 

But when you saw steve irwin playing with crocs, mums, dads and kids all know crocs are bloody dangerous and should not be played with. I dont think that steve sent the wrong message that it was OK to play with maneaterss just cause he could do it. No....whoever watched him simply enjoyed hey show and thought that is one activity best left to the experts?


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## MrFireStorm (Mar 7, 2011)

eracer said:


> OK....spanner in the works.
> 
> The general consensus here is that free handling vens is a choice we make. Those of us that can do it, do do it for whatever reason, but we should only do it in the privacy of our home.
> 
> ...



Fair comment. However:

a. Look at where Steve is now....(R.I.P.)
b. Steve did not have 5 foot tiger snakes looped around his neck with the head looking back at him


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 7, 2011)

Steve did pick up an Adder mid body while under a house. though it was probably a captive set up for the shoot


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## waruikazi (Mar 7, 2011)

eracer said:


> OK....spanner in the works.
> 
> The general consensus here is that free handling vens is a choice we make. Those of us that can do it, do do it for whatever reason, but we should only do it in the privacy of our home.
> 
> ...



I'm guessing you don't live in crocodile country if you've never seen/heard of Steve immitations.


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## Jonno from ERD (Mar 7, 2011)

eracer said:


> OK....spanner in the works.
> 
> The general consensus here is that free handling vens is a choice we make. Those of us that can do it, do do it for whatever reason, but we should only do it in the privacy of our home.
> 
> ...


 
Crocs are far less accessible to the general public. A kid in Melbourne isn't going to stumble across a 4 metre Saltwater Crocodile in his backyard, but he very well may stumble across one of the several species of potentially deadly snakes that occur there.

The other aspect is _respect. _Handling them in a respectful manner doesn't just prevent people from interacting with them in the wild, it also stops them from lumping them in the same category as mice and Cane Toads. All sorts of benefits can stem from that, such as braking for snakes/lizards on the road, creating (or at least, not destroying) backyard habitat, calling a snake catcher rather than a shovel, not using snailbaits etc. Of course, I've included lizards in the previous statement but they are generally lumped together in the same "yuck" category as snakes as well.


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## longqi (Mar 7, 2011)

Snake handlers have been playing with venomous snakes for thousands of years
Yes there have been accidents
But not very many when you consider that it is only recently that anti venine was created
In Thailand for example there are many many places where you can play with king cobras etc that are fully venomed
BUT they select their snakes VERY carefully
Aussie vens are generally much more 'active' than asian ones so I definitely would not wrap a tiger around my neck unless I knew that snake inside out
But things like copperheads and blacks can tame down beautifully
So long as the dangers are completely understood and accepted by the handler I see no real problem with this

Compare how placid an inland taipan is to a coastal???
One day someone will free handle these in public
But probably never a coastal
I dont know much about tigers except they can hit very fast and were not really attractive like a black
so I never tried to interact with them
The message we give out now as demonstrators should also be about respecting ALL our snakes
If we only teach that pythons should be respected the others are still left in the 'Wheres my shovel' category

Yes it is very possible to try to teach respect without actually touching the snake
But much more easy if the public can quietly interact and start to understand that "the snake does not want to chase them down and kill them"
I cannot count the number of people whose attitude at first was "Only good snake is a dead one"
who changed very quickly to "Oh wow this is amazing"

If vens are handled correctly there is only a risk to the handler


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## Elapidae1 (Mar 7, 2011)

But while in the public arena that risk should be cut back to the bare minimum so the public is not at risk of being traumatized by witnessing a bite.
Using Steve Irwin as example again. He was bitten on the neck by an olive moments after telling the presenter that the snake would not bite him. Imagine if this had been a highly venomous Elapid


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## eracer (Mar 7, 2011)

steve1 said:


> But while in the public arena that risk should be cut back to the bare minimum so the public is not at risk of being traumatized by witnessing a bite.
> Using Steve Irwin as example again. He was bitten on the neck by an olive moments after telling the presenter that the snake would not bite him. Imagine if this had been a highly venomous Elapid



Yeah, true that. It can happen. Whats more, it would be seriously embarassing. I remember getting nicely tagged on the face by a big SWCP when demonstrating the snake was calm, placid and would make a great family pet!! It was not a bitey snake: it was just having an off day.

With regard to the Steve imitations, I would not have thought tooooo many people would go jump on a croc just cause steve did? But I could be wrong.....how was that idiot in broome!!

And yes he is dead now but that is not really a relevant point. He got done by a stingray...something he was probably not experienced with. It was a 1:1000000 chance encounter.


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

eracer said:


> Yeah, true that. It can happen. Whats more, it would be seriously embarassing. I remember getting nicely tagged on the face by a big SWCP when demonstrating the snake was calm, placid and would make a great family pet!! It was not a bitey snake: it was just having an off day.
> 
> With regard to the Steve imitations, I would not have thought tooooo many people would go jump on a croc just cause steve did? But I could be wrong.....how was that idiot in broome!!
> 
> And yes he is dead now but that is not really a relevant point. He got done by a stingray...something he was probably not experienced with. It was a 1:1000000 chance encounter.



Like i said, unless you live where crocs are found your comments can't count for awful lot.


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## imported_Varanus (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm with Gordo, never underestimate the stupidity of the average human! We once had a supposedly well known documentary maker come to Wyndham (East Kimberley) to film large Salties from an old shark cage. Needless to say, all the locals and experienced people from the croc farm warned him against it. So he jumps in the cage, full of donkey meat, with a camera, in coffee coloured water at the "blood drain" on the incomming tide!! Predictable outcome, and he was lucky to escape with his life. Still, beter than what was on the box that night!!


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

imported_Varanus said:


> I'm with Gordo, never underestimate the stupidity of the average human! We once had a supposedly well known documentary maker come to Wyndham (East Kimberley) to film large Salties from an old shark cage. Needless to say, all the locals and experienced people from the croc farm warned him against it. So he jumps in the cage, full of donkey meat, with a camera, in coffee coloured water at the "blood drain" on the incomming tide!! Predictable outcome, and he was lucky to escape with his life. Still, beter than what was on the box that night!!



I think i saw that footage. He was also a pig hunter wasn't he?


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## imported_Varanus (Mar 8, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I think i saw that footage. He was also a pig hunter wasn't he?



I can't confirm the pig hunter, but the footage (to everyone's suprise) was shown on national television. A few blurred shots of eyes, jaws, teeth and metal being ripped apart and his dramatic escape through the top of the trap. Luckily, for him, the croc went straight for the Donkey meat. I think he thought they were just going to circle like sharks, but the whole filming event lasted no more than a few minutes. Funnily enough, no one would shout him a beer in the pub afterwards! Unfriendly lot!!


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2011)

Hahaha, i'll have to look for this footage. It sounds a little different to the one i saw. The one i'm thinking of was filmed int he 70's i think.


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## hilly (Mar 8, 2011)

If you find it can you PLEASE post the link- I would love to see that!!!


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## imported_Varanus (Mar 8, 2011)

The only reference I can find is an attempt by David Ireland, who spent 11 NIGHTS (???) in a cage in the Blood Drain , again, testimony to the stupidity of our species! His cage seems more substantial than the one I remember (which was on display at Wyndham croc farm for a time) and was attached by steel cable to an old warf crane (which is how they rescued him). Do a google search for David Ireland and Blood Drain. It appears this was not his only attempt, either.


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## moosenoose (Mar 8, 2011)

I only freehandle behind closed doors...dirty filthy habit I know


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## Wallypod (Mar 8, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> I only freehandle behind closed doors...dirty filthy habit I know



careful you'll go blind moose


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 9, 2011)

Haha, gotta love these threads.
IV, David Ireland is ok, I love his doco style.


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## moosenoose (Mar 9, 2011)

My wife caught me freehandling once, I never felt so ashamed


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 9, 2011)

Lol Moose, Im freehandling now,


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## shellfisch (Mar 9, 2011)

ssssnakeman said:


> Lol Moose, Im freehandling now,



Hope you washed your hands


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