# Breeding. Selling. Dealers license. Farmers license. ?!?!



## Fedelrick (Mar 5, 2015)

Ok so its my understanding that in WA we need a dealers license to sell snakes as pets to the public. If we wish to breed more than 1 clutch per year we need to pay $1000 for a farmers license. However I see ads posted all the time listing snakes for sale and saying the transfer fee is included. So how exactly does that work?? My understanding of it so far is that its a sort of dogy way to get around the system. You "give" the snake to the breeder. And your friend "buys" the snake from the breeder for $15 "transfer" fee. And then slides you $300 under the table.... if im understanding this correctly with future clutches i could sell them all myself and have infinite amounts of clutches as long as i sell them through a dealer and i wouldnt have to pay the dealer or farmer fee... idk someone explain it hahaha


----------



## kingofnobbys (Mar 5, 2015)

I think having breeders licenced to be breeders and paying an annual licence fee of about $1000 is a good idea. Will certainly force out a lot of the "cowboys" who only are in the hobby to breed lots of lizards and snakes and who are only in it for the $ . 

Certainly would give anyone considering breeding lots of clutches from their "pets" cause to reconsider if they are doing this as a hobby or as a business (to make maximum $ from their breeding stock).

If it means the availability of captive bred reptiles is reduced and their price is increased, so be it.


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 5, 2015)

But why would they let such an easy loophole slide? Im mean surely they could fix it. Is their any rule in w.a about breeding snakes and keeping the offspring yourself?


----------



## Snowman (Mar 5, 2015)

At present there is one active farmers license in WA. The disincentive to breed is strange and its by far easier to get a takers license and wild collect. The government gets royalties from wild caught, but nothing from captive bred. Perhaps this is their motivation to make captive breeding so difficult? I really don't know.
As it stands there are people who breed hundreds of pythons each season. They simply transfer them through pet stores. You can sell one clutch per year. But you can transfer to a licensed dealer as many as you want. I suspect the people transferring the other clutches to a dealer get cash and it goes through the book as them having given the animals to the dealer. At least that's what the employees at licensed pet stores do.
I have a dealers license and a keepers license. The dealers license for cat 3 costs me $200 per year and my cat 5 license is $300 per year.
I think there are supposed to be some changes coming in in a few months. But other than new species added to the list I'm not sure what they will be.
DPaW stated in a letter to WAHS that they acknowledge that the farmers license failed. I have a copy of the letter... Personally I'd like to see breeding restrictions taken away and more restrictions put in place for wild taking of species that are already established in the hobby now.

But back to topic.. Yes you can get around the clutches at present and DPaW are aware of this and have not been upset about it as far as I know.
Yes you can keep as many clutches as you can breed. There is *NO* breeding restrictions. Only restrictions on the amount of clutches that can be *SOLD* per calendar year.

- - - Updated - - -



kingofnobbys said:


> I think having breeders licenced to be breeders and paying an annual licence fee of about $1000 is a good idea. Will certainly force out a lot of the "cowboys" who only are in the hobby to breed lots of lizards and snakes and who are only in it for the $ .
> 
> Certainly would give anyone considering breeding lots of clutches from their "pets" cause to reconsider if they are doing this as a hobby or as a business (to make maximum $ from their breeding stock).
> 
> If it means the availability of captive bred reptiles is reduced and their price is increased, so be it.



There really isn't much money in the hobby in WA. You could pump out a heap of animals, but we just don't have the local demand for them. So you'd just end up stuck with them or selling them for next to nothing.
$1000 isn't much for someone in WA with a decent job. But probably a fair bit of cash for someone not in the resource sector (which is shrinking daily). In the end if it was in-forced you'd just have the people who are better off breeding and the not so well of either turning to off license breeding or not breeding at all. Seem's a bit unfair, but it is what it is. We are certainly seeing a wider gap amongst the haves and have not's in this country. 
Also as I said before you can simply get a wild caught takers permit for the same price. Much easier than breeding and you don't have the three month hold rule that we do on captive bred animals.


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 5, 2015)

Well... what the actual flipping (insert curse words)... why would they make it so easy to get a takers license? Their imo should be insentive to breed so we dont lose wild populations... but clearly not. I just dont understand. It is also cheaper from what ive seen to buy a wild caught snake over a bred one... Oh well. Anyone have opinions on this?


----------



## kingofnobbys (Mar 5, 2015)

Fedelrick said:


> Well... what the actual flipping (insert curse words)... why would they make it so easy to get a takers license? Their imo should be insentive to breed so we dont lose wild populations... but clearly not. I just dont understand. It is also cheaper from what ive seen to buy a wild caught snake over a bred one... Oh well. Anyone have opinions on this?


That is something that needs to be rectified , it should be made extremely hard to obtain a wildlife takers permit (lots of hoops to jump through and expensive and limited to zoo personnel, researchers only and STRICTLY ENFORCED with huge fines and time in prison if caught in possession of animals taken from the wild without a permit to do so and made STRICTLY FORBOTTEN to sell wild caught animals.


----------



## stimigex (Mar 5, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> That is something that needs to be rectified , it should be made extremely hard to obtain a wildlife takers permit (lots of hoops to jump through and expensive and limited to zoo personnel, researchers only and STRICTLY ENFORCED with huge fines and time in prison if caught in possession of animals taken from the wild without a permit to do so and made STRICTLY FORBOTTEN to sell wild caught animals.



You really need to read up on the regulations in WA instead of making board statements about something your self and the majority of others in the hobby today have no understanding of! Think yourself lucky you have fairly easy license conditions in NSW compared to what our counterparts have to contend with in WA

Firstly, The taking of reptiles from the wild has reduced quite a lot as there is a lot of stock in captivity and it is being bred from!

Secondly I have held a reasonable collection of wild caught reptiles for some years as have others and going by your logic we would not be able to sell any of this stock for others to utilize.

Thirdly where do you think all the nice looking critters (in particular the Ants from WA) that you all goo and gaa over come from..... yes WC critters held by those of us who put a lot of time, effort and $$$$ into getting and establishing!


----------



## Snowman (Mar 5, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> That is something that needs to be rectified , it should be made extremely hard to obtain a wildlife takers permit (lots of hoops to jump through and expensive and limited to zoo personnel, researchers only and STRICTLY ENFORCED with huge fines and time in prison if caught in possession of animals taken from the wild without a permit to do so and made STRICTLY FORBOTTEN to sell wild caught animals.


The takers license was set up as part of establishing captive pet reptiles. The list of animals that they can legally take is quite small. At the end of the day everyone's pet reptiles came from animals that were once wild. I do think that it's absurd that taking is promoted over captive breeding though and disincentives like $1000 farmers license were put in place. The WA system is way harder and more complicated than it needs to be. The fact that we cant even do keeper to keeper transfer of animals is a thorn in everyone's side. You have to pay a dealer $25-$50 to even give an animal away...

The last lot of animals added to the keepers list have more sensible rules. They cant be exported out of WA, so less demand. IMO only captive bred animals should be exported. But at present it's a blanket ban on exporting the new species.


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 5, 2015)

Snowman said:


> The takers license was set up as part of establishing captive pet reptiles. The list of animals that they can legally take is quite small. At the end of the day everyone's pet reptiles came from animals that were once wild. I do think that it's absurd that taking is promoted over captive breeding though and disincentives like $1000 farmers license were put in place. The WA system is way harder and more complicated than it needs to be. The fact that we cant even do keeper to keeper transfer of animals is a thorn in everyone's side. You have to pay a dealer $25-$50 to even give an animal away...
> 
> The last lot of animals added to the keepers list have more sensible rules. They cant be exported out of WA, so less demand. IMO only captive bred animals should be exported. But at present it's a blanket ban on exporting the new species.



So do they have any plans on updating it?... i dont know about others but I also find it silly that pygmy pythons are cat 4 but stimmys cat 3. I found them almost identical to look after but dont have experience raising a hatchling pygmy. Same with the northern and southern carpets. Ones a cat 3 and other a cat 4. Is their that much difference?


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Mar 6, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> That is something that needs to be rectified , it should be made extremely hard to obtain a wildlife takers permit (lots of hoops to jump through and expensive and limited to zoo personnel, researchers only and STRICTLY ENFORCED with huge fines and time in prison if caught in possession of animals taken from the wild without a permit to do so and made STRICTLY FORBOTTEN to sell wild caught animals.



"FORBOTTEN"...? ACHTUNG!!! Did you mean "VERBOTEN?" LOL! I think you should include execution for a second offence... Seriously, I hope you never make it into any wildlife bureaucracy buddy. Zealots actually do far more damage to the cause of wildlife protection than a reasoned approach to communication. WA has been a hotbed of wildlife bureaucrat zealotry for five decades, and it just forces activities underground.

That the regulations brought into law in WA in 2003 (after years of negotiating by me and others) have not been reviewed and the more stupid aspects ("Farmer's Licence" being the standout) removed or modified is bizarre. The way the system operates at the moment forces people to behave in ways which were never intended, just to sidestep the patently unworkable aspects of a clumsy and very expensive system - all done with tacit approval of CALM... or DEC... or whatever they call themselves now...

Jamie


----------



## Snowman (Mar 6, 2015)

Fedelrick said:


> So do they have any plans on updating it?...


Not really... there will be some minor changes as I understand it. But the system as broken as it is will endure for at least another 20 years.



Fedelrick said:


> i dont know about others but I also find it silly that pygmy pythons are cat 4 but stimmys cat 3. I found them almost identical to look after but dont have experience raising a hatchling pygmy. Same with the northern and southern carpets. Ones a cat 3 and other a cat 4. Is their that much difference?


The category is not only reflective of their care but also many other factors such as status in the wild etc... Some baby perthensis need to be force fed. I'd say that would be difficult for most first time keepers. But I think mostly they were put as cat 4 as they were only just added and the government was keen to see the demand for them not as high had they been cat 3. Woma's for instance will be moved (apparently) from cat 4 down to cat 3.
Northern carpets in WA are extremely rare. So much in fact I'm surprised they weren't put in at cat 5. To date none have been wild collected in WA. None can be imported... I'd say rough scaled pythons will become available in WA pet trade before NWCP and we all now how hard they are to find.


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 6, 2015)

Rough scaled pythons are definately on my to own list. They are by far the best looking snake i have ever seen. I would like to see womas on cat 3. They or amazing snakes. Unfortunatrly i cant afford one at this point. But one day


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Mar 6, 2015)

Fedelrick said:


> Rough scaled pythons are definately on my to own list. They are by far the best looking snake i have ever seen. I would like to see womas on cat 3. They or amazing snakes. Unfortunatrly i cant afford one at this point. But one day



Interesting and sad that Roughies are a $200 snake in other parts of Australia, but I guess you guys will have to go through the whole premium price thing all over again if anyone actually collects and breeds them for the WA market. Are any takers prepared to spend what it will cost to go after them in WA Snowie? JW did a lot of trips to the remote Kimberley before he secured his five animals.

Jamie


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 6, 2015)

Id definately consider getting my takers license to do it... i have family all arou d their and grew up their. makes it a bit cheaper  but im obviously no where near experienced enough. Whats the procedure for getting takers license?


----------



## Snowman (Mar 6, 2015)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Interesting and sad that Roughies are a $200 snake in other parts of Australia, but I guess you guys will have to go through the whole premium price thing all over again if anyone actually collects and breeds them for the WA market. Are any takers prepared to spend what it will cost to go after them in WA Snowie? JW did a lot of trips to the remote Kimberley before he secured his five animals.
> 
> Jamie



Don't think so at the moment. The zoo and the wildlife parks have been given permission to breed and supply off their reg 16's. But as I understand the reptile parks etc all have the same sex specimens and the Zoo is against supplying the pet trade with anything. If I was one of the wildlife parks I'd be hitting the zoo up for a pair. The zoo has bred them a few times I believe. 
Interestingly the CALM ban on the import of pythons that was put in place states that it is because there is no live test for IBD. However since there is now a live test for both IBD and Sunshine virus they are still unwilling to lift the python import ban. To me it sounds very odd.... 
I also find that new wild takers are not allowed to collect the new species odd. Legally it would be a disadvantage to new businesses trying to compete with existing takers. Something that is completely against the fair-trade act I think? The reasoning is that you need two years without a caution to be eligible to collect the new species. Last year that left 2 takers with the monopoly in supplying the pet trade with fuscus, perthensis, irregularis etc..


----------



## kingofnobbys (Mar 6, 2015)

Whinging about the rules in WA (or elsewhere) on places like here and abusing anyone who disagrees with your opinion IS NOT going help change these rules.

If you don't like the rules , become active and get a petition going , or get yourself elected into your state parliament and do something REAL to address these rules and change them, or simply move to a state with rules more to your liking.


----------



## Snowman (Mar 6, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> Whinging about the rules in WA (or elsewhere) on places like here and abusing anyone who disagrees with your opinion IS NOT going help change these rules.
> 
> If you don't like the rules , become active and get a petition going , or get yourself elected into your state parliament and do something REAL to address these rules and change them, or simply move to a state with rules more to your liking.



Well I'm part of WAHS and was helping with the submission put forward for change whilst I was on committee and Pythoninfonite was one of the people responsible for getting reptiles legalised as pets in WA. It took over 10 years to get the system legalised and another 10 for us to get another 6 animals listed. You're quite new to reptiles I'm guessing and don't know anything or anyone? Sometimes it's best just to keep comments to yourself if you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Mar 6, 2015)

Hmmm... the saga just goes on & on... such silly constraints and for what purpose?

Now, king of knobs, just a brief history (sorry to bore the members who've heard this story again & again...) to put paid to every one of your suggestions... 

When I was living in WA (from 1948 till 2005,) I spent most of my working life at the WA Museum, which kept me in constant contact with the scientific herp community and the wildlife bureaucrats at what was, in the 60s, The Dept of Fisheries & Wildlife... which became CALM... which became DEC... which has become something else now... 

During that time, I saw the regulations regarding reptile keeping change from easy (reptiles were protected but you could easily get a permit to collect or import in the 50s & early 60s). Indeed in the early 60s the Dept of Fisheries & Wildlife arranged for one of their officers in Kununurra to catch and send to me 2 Johnstone's Crocodiles for $20 plus freight! Things changed drastically in the late 60s and taking reptiles from the wild was akin to murder. But habitat destruction continued and increased dramatically of course.

I was lucky in some ways - I was able to get a Reg 16 licence and keep reptiles through my job at the WAM... Time moved on to the early 90s, other states were beginning to develop licencing systems for keepers, but not WA. A herp group (including me) began a series of meetings with CALM officials - a tortuous process which wasn't moving much at all. The group distilled into 3 individuals - myself, Mike Lynch and Simon Ball, and we maintained our presence with CALM for a couple of years but were constantly being stalled. I was fortunate enough to have the then Labor Minister of the Environment, DR Judy Edwards, as a personal friend. She indicated that she would be prepared to apply pressure to CALM to give us a fair hearing. This started the ball rolling, and the momentum was taken over by a new Minister, Lib Cheryl Edwardes, who was very keen to see an outcome.

So, by 2002, all was pretty much resolved and we were promised a great keeping system... It went quiet for 12 months while legislation was drafted etc, but we three took our eyes off the ball during that time (probably weren't going to be privy to the legislative machinations anyway). March 2003 and the regs were announced with some fanfare - but of course the bureaucrats had managed to turn the regulations from something like the sleek horse we were promised into the camel you're all dealing with in WA now. Over 10 years of work involving dozens of people and the end result is what you have now.

As far as your final point goes, king of knobs, by the time I was in my late 50s, I couldn't be bothered pushing the barrow any more, and you'll be pleased to know, I did, in fact, move to NSW, where I live happily on 100 bush acres on the mid north coast, surrounded by Lace Monitors, Green Tree Snakes, Brown Tree Snakes, Intergrade Pythons and a heap of other things that I see almost every day without having to keep them in cages. And I can keep and breed some of my favourites such as Green Tree Pythons, Roughies etc.

Perhaps you'd like to pick up and run with baton for a while king of knobs - you could use it to slug someone who might photograph a Bluetongue in a national park... especially if they're going fishing and happen to have a landing net with them.

I think I've done my bit. I don't encourage illegal taking in any way, shape or form, but you'll find, if you look hard enough, that habitat destruction is the single biggest threat to most reptiles. Hell, you only have to visit Perth to see that there's almost nothing left of the Swan Coastal Plain, and they're pumping so much bore water out of the sands that the remaining bush is dying. Don't ever try and tell me that someone photographing a lizard is a threat to the species... been around too long for that.

Jamie (whew)


----------



## Snowman (Mar 6, 2015)

Fedelrick said:


> Id definately consider getting my takers license to do it... i have family all arou d their and grew up their. makes it a bit cheaper  but im obviously no where near experienced enough. Whats the procedure for getting takers license?



Takers license is easy. Just need to pass the interview and ID test. Then pay the fee.
I'm pretty sure the location requires helicopter to get access?


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Mar 6, 2015)

Helicopter or boat...

Ha thanks Snowy - your response was much more concise !

J


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 6, 2015)

And id need my cat 5? Hmmm that will be fun. Ive only had my cat 4 for a year haha... but boats are easy to organise. Has anyone looked into this thoroughly??


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Mar 6, 2015)

Fedelrick said:


> And id need my cat 5? Hmmm that will be fun. Ive only had my cat 4 for a year haha... but boats are easy to organise. Has anyone looked into this thoroughly??



The region is extremely remote. Expeditions are very expensive to organise, and you'd have to go during the wet season to have any chance of success - and success is not guaranteed - I think John Weigel did something like 18 or 19 trips to eventually secure his foundation animals.

Jamie


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 6, 2015)

From an investors standpoint it would be very worth jt. Offspring could easily be sold for $1500+ making their money back pretty fast. But it would be so good for the hobby. If w.a can secure breeding groups of these snakes then they can slow down the takers licenses and focus more on the breeding. and they could easily make a profit of that.

- - - Updated - - -

Any chance of importing a breeding pair to w.a?


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Mar 6, 2015)

Well, each trip will cost you many thousands of dollars, with no guarantee of success, and no guarantee that you'll be able to breed what you catch... To be honest, I wouldn't put money on it.

No chance of importation.

Jamie


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 6, 2015)

Actually scratch what i saod. Im on my phone at the moment and just realised i missed half of the posts. Ill reread it all when i get home... it wpuld be good if a few people got together and kept the pressure going to get the laws changed.


----------



## wokka (Mar 6, 2015)

Fedelrick said:


> From an investors standpoint it would be very worth jt. Offspring could easily be sold for $1500+ making their money back pretty fast. But it would be so good for the hobby. If w.a can secure breeding groups of these snakes then they can slow down the takers licenses and focus more on the breeding. and they could easily make a profit of that.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Any chance of importing a breeding pair to w.a?



Ask Gavin Bedford how profitable wild capture is? I think he has spent over 250 K to get a few Oenpellis.


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 6, 2015)

wokka said:


> Ask Gavin Bedford how profitable wild capture is? I think he has spent over 250 K to get a few Oenpellis.



Well thats a cool snake that i never new existed... surely breeding that would bring him a great deal of money. But just looking at where they are found... whoah.... i would get a takers license and just go on holiday their every year. Keeping an eye out. Some of that area looks veautiful.


----------



## Wally (Mar 6, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> Whinging about the rules in WA (or elsewhere) on places like here and abusing anyone who disagrees with your opinion IS NOT going help change these rules.
> 
> If you don't like the rules , become active and get a petition going , or get yourself elected into your state parliament and do something REAL to address these rules and change them, or simply move to a state with rules more to your liking.



You mean like this.

https://aussiepythons.com/forum/sho...for-your-help!!!!!!!!!?highlight=keepers+list


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 6, 2015)

Well i just sent a letter... but thats from 4 years ago. Maybe we can rally up another attack. With the way social networking is going we could easyily make a petition that got shared globally.


----------



## Stuart (Mar 7, 2015)

Issue with social networking and global sharing is that it generates the want for pretty colours and new things, not a genuine sense of awareness. It's a great idea in the short term though.


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 7, 2015)

But w.a has some of the best colours out! Have you ever seen a tri colour wheat belt stimson? Ooohhh so gorgeous... but maybe that would be a good thing? If more people wanted albino snakes from over east maybe that would put enough pressure on them to relax the import laws. Even if it cost $1000+ to import a single snake that is better than catching wild species.


----------



## arevenant (Mar 7, 2015)

And to add to the whole global social media thing; why would a petition signed by someone in say, Argentina, make one iota of difference to bureaucrats in W.A. over legislation change specific to W.A.?
Relevance is a very important thing in this situation...


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 7, 2015)

I was thinking more along the lines of more sharing=more awerness. So more australians will join. Possibly.


----------



## Starter (Mar 8, 2015)

In my opinion, $1,000 for a "farmers" license is extreme profiteering and a mean rip-off. Are you serious that you were asked to pay that? As it is called "farmers" licence - which farmer could possibly make a profit high enough to justify such a high fee? For example, I breed pigs in SA. The pair eats about 30kg fodder every single day and produces perhaps a dozen of piglets who sell at $100 each. Now, do your maths!
And snakes are not much different. You all know the costs of vivariums, heat lamps, UV lamps, incubators and feeder rats. How could any snake owner possibly afford such a high fee? Most certainly not from any "profits" which they may make if hey are extremely lucky. Hence, with such crazy fees, reptile breeding would become an exclusive hobby of the rich. And that's not what we want, right?


----------



## Fedelrick (Mar 8, 2015)

Starter said:


> In my opinion, $1,000 for a "farmers" license is extreme profiteering and a mean rip-off. Are you serious that you were asked to pay that? As it is called "farmers" licence - which farmer could possibly make a profit high enough to justify such a high fee? For example, I breed pigs in SA. The pair eats about 30kg fodder every single day and produces perhaps a dozen of piglets who sell at $100 each. Now, do your maths!
> And snakes are not much different. You all know the costs of vivariums, heat lamps, UV lamps, incubators and feeder rats. How could any snake owner possibly afford such a high fee? Most certainly not from any "profits" which they may make if hey are extremely lucky. Hence, with such crazy fees, reptile breeding would become an exclusive hobby of the rich. And that's not what we want, right?



Yup $1000. Its fantastic isnt it? we could all just start mass pumping out stimmies and sell them for $500 each. if abyone was dumb enough to buy them we would make a profit


----------

