# Collecting Wild Reptiles.



## Gregory (Nov 1, 2004)

I'll start this off by saying this is not a personal attack on the members of APS that do this.

I have an inherent disgust that people in WA ( and other states and territories) are able to buy a licence and can then go out and collect wild reptiles and sell them for what is obviously very high profit. I know I'll be howled down by those members that do, with them saying they have to pay so much for a licence and to cover costs and such but I still can't get my head round profiteering from wild caught animals. Fine, get your licence and collect some and start breeding them and sell the offspring but to go out and collect and sell is in my book wrong. 
It's certainly not envy that makes me voice this opinion but just my moral obligation. Someone will surely point out if I'm wrong but I'm told that the controlling body in WA charges quite a lot for the privilege and I think that they have a lot to answer for in as much as their restrcitions on private breeding and such but that's just another example of revenue raising and bureaucracy gone mad.
As I said at the beginning, I'm not personally attacking you WA folk, so don't take it as such.



Gregory


----------



## jimmy_the_kid (Nov 1, 2004)

lol i have to agree i think on sum level its as bad as poaching an sum levels not as bad lol i mean i would loveth chance to go grab a few animals out of the buch and keep them ive had the chances but i wouldnt even if it was legal im not sure y but it just feels wrong to me


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2004)

Legal poaching to fatten the wallets of the government cronies!!!


----------



## jimmy_the_kid (Nov 1, 2004)

lol forgot to add nuthing personal to the members of this site holding these liscences not saying ur doing anything wrong just saying it isnt sumthing i would do


----------



## Nome (Nov 1, 2004)

:twisted: Contraversy, havent' had a good dose of it for a while :twisted: 

I know very little about WA laws, but is a licensed person there able to go out and catch a reptile, then resell it? Are there any catches to it? Waiting period, collecting limit, limited to certain species??


----------



## Magpie (Nov 1, 2004)

I think CALM have a lot to answer for here.
Not allowing imports from other states and what seems to me to be actively discouraging captive breeding once there is a decent captive population in WA.
I have no problem with the people out there collecting them, I would have done my damnest to get a licence if I was still in WA. But they could have allowed people to collect their own for a $200 fee, or given more incentive for people to captive breed in large numbers. I've lived in WA most of my life, and have a fair idea what CALM are about though and cannot see anything changing in the near future.


----------



## Nome (Nov 1, 2004)

Yes, it seems rather strange, the money involved. For me to send spiders to a zoo in WA, the receiver had to get an import permit from CALM, and this costs much money, certainly much more than the spiders they bought.

What is the purpose besides making money for their strange laws regarding importing and exporting and expensive permits?


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

Well, had to be brought up eventually. We will give a few facts first. 

1. WA is Australia's biggest state (obviously). In this state 11 (yes, only 11) people are licensed to collect wild reptiles. 

2. You can't just buy this license. A lot of people have been refused, and some who now hold it had considerable hardship obtaining one. There is also a considerable financial outlay with enclosures, etc. to get set up in the first place.

3. Where are all the pythons going to come from for WA keepers and breeders if not from the wild? It is ILLEGAL to import a python into WA. All captive pythons in collections today have descended from a wild caught animal. 

4. CALM will be adding and removing animals from the list as captive stocks reach a self sustaining level. Remember not all reptile owners breed their animals and not all wild caught animals will breed, either. 

5. What private breeding restrictions are there? A private person in WA can breed legally obtained animals as much as they want. If they have 10 pairs of stimis and 10 pairs of BHP's they can breed them until the cows come home with NO RESRICTIONS. It is only if a private person wants to sell more than one clutch from any species in a calender year that they need to obtain a farmer's license and register as a breeder.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

That said, can you justify the claim of very high profit. Of course there are overheads and royalties. These reduce this 'very high profit' down considerably. A tyre on my vehicle costs $240. If I blow a tyre while catching one stimson's where is my profit? Some collectors travel for 7-8 hours one way and then may spend a week in that location to obtain certain animals. This costs money don't forget and the only reimbursement is the sales we make. 

As for morally right or wrong- we don't care in the slightest what others think. That is for members of this site to debate and reach their own conclusions. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you complain to CALM yourself instead of putting it on a website like this?
Complaints can be adressed to:
Department of Conservation and Land Management
Wildlife Branch
Locked Bag 104
Bentley Delivery Centre
Bentley 
WA 6983

We also are not having a personal attack against anybody on this site or the site itself, but it does seem some of you make your own conclusions instead of researching the facts first.

Jim and Rach


----------



## jimmy_the_kid (Nov 1, 2004)

womas4me said:


> 3. Where are all the pythons going to come from for WA keepers and breeders if not from the wild? It is ILLEGAL to import a python into WA. All captive pythons in collections today have descended from a wild caught animal.



lol arnt all reptiles or any pet animals for that mater desendents to wild caught animals lol


----------



## dobermanmick (Nov 1, 2004)

I dont know I think i will sit on the fence on this one


----------



## jimmy_the_kid (Nov 1, 2004)

u bloody fence sitter


----------



## Gregory (Nov 1, 2004)

womas4me said:


> A tyre on my vehicle costs $240. If I blow a tyre while catching one stimson's where is my profit?



How can you use the small chance of a blown tyre to rationalise high prices? 



> As for morally right or wrong- we don't care in the slightest what others think.



No, because you're not thinking morally. How can you justify taking animals from the wild and profiteering from them? Regardless of whether it's legal or not? What restrictions are placed on your licence as to how many animals you can collect?



> If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you complain to CALM yourself instead of putting it on a website like this?



Because websites like this are the perfect forum to find popular opinion.
Why have websites like this if the hard questions can't be answered as well?




> We also are not having a personal attack against anybody on this site or the site itself, but it does seem some of you make your own conclusions instead of researching the facts first.



Exactly what I was doing, trying to find out the facts.



Greg


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2004)

wow, i'm out.


----------



## ether (Nov 1, 2004)

There prices are extreme, $200 just to export a reptile. We pay $20 in NSW. Why is WA so far behind. Do they have anything against keeping reptiles?

Regards Alex


----------



## NoOne (Nov 1, 2004)

I must say Greg, i'm with you on this one.....wild collecting in any way really gets to me....with most species there is NO need at all to keep catching....the only need is greed.
There are some speices in that have no captive populations....and to me i think it should stay that way....onepellies are something i think should be left alone i see no need to collect animals like this......i like the fact that we no next to nothing about them.


----------



## Simon_Archibald (Nov 1, 2004)

Firstly, I think that everyone who owns a reptile, has bred it and has sold it is in some way profiteering from a wild-caught animal as all were descendants from the wild. However you look at it, just because we might own captive-bred stock, by buying any reptile, we've effectively supported someone from the 70's-90's and onwards taking animals from the wild.

I understand and respect the opinions of people on both sides of this argument though, because some valid points can be raised for each.

The most exciting thing though (and Sdaji said it in the Pilbara Stimsons advert) about being able to keep wild-caught reptiles from these areas is that they can be guaranteed locality-pure and this can be preserved in captive collections basically forever. As it is unfortunately, a lot of our current captive stock is mix-and-matched.

Good topic to bring up Greg...sure to get the brains ticking over.

Simon Archibald


----------



## hugsta (Nov 1, 2004)

I personally don't agree with taking from the wild, however, there is always exceptions to the rule. But I just want to know a couple of things.

Does CALM put a number on the amount of any one species that can be taken from the wild?

Surely if you had enough of one species then you are bound to end up with some that breed.

Why don't CALM only permit those ppl that have permits to only sell what has been captive bred?

As for cost of setups and finding the animals it's not much different to buying captive bred. You still have to buy the enclosures and you still have purchase the animal. The only difference is you guys get to catch it and not breed it. I know I would love to be able to go out into the wild and catch reptiles for minimal cost and then sell them. 
In fact I pay to go and see them in the wild, look at them, photo them and then carry on leaving the animals behind and thinking geez that was worth 200 or 300 dollars.

I am not having a go at you guys over there as I know if I was there I would be doing the same. It just seems that CALM have a bad way of doing things. IMO


----------



## Sdaji (Nov 1, 2004)

I've tried to keep quiet on this one, but argh, I can't help it!

Gregory, if wild animals can be taken for profit, without damaging the populations, do you have a problem with it? I eat fish, they are harvested from the wild, someone is profiting from me buying them. I eat kangaroo, I buy it from someone who shoots them in the wild for profit. We all use paper, this is often produced by the destruction of natural forest, again, someone profits.

I have a small problem with the way the animals are being collected, but I think it's absolutely wonderful that it's being done, even if it's not in the absolute best way. As long as those collecting them are doing it responsibly, I certainly don't have anything against them and would even go as far as buying them if the right animal was available at the right price (although I think I'll be waiting for captive bred offspring of these wild caught animals, for various reasons, mostly because I'm happy for someone else to do the work of producing captive bred offspring which are better animals to keep).

I think it would be silly to say that the animals shouldn't be collected at all (although I know many absolutely loathe the practise) and if private individuals aren't allowed to do it (and although this is the way I would have thought best, within many restrictions, I admit this would have carried its own problems) then there has to be profit involved for someone to go out and collect them. I would rather pay $800 or so for someone to collect 8 stimmies for me than get my own, because I know that it would take me a heck of a lot more than $800 to get there and spend time searching etc, and I may not even be able to find any. Yes, they're doing it on a large scale, which is why it's economically viable for them and yes, I agree the system isn't perfect, but can you think of a perfect system?

To say that profiteering from wild animals is wrong is just silly, I know that I am going to keep eating fish, kangaroo and all the other ones. People seem to lose the concept of reality when it comes to pet animals, somehow it's okay for someone to catch tonnes upon tonnes of fish, which will each be killed and eaten just once, but on the other hand it's wrong for a small number of reptiles to be taken which will each be carefully looked after for their entire lifetime and reproduce to provide babies which can found a new population.

As much as I cringe to say it, the legal sitation is important, it's important for it to happen within the law, because it makes things possible to keep track of and ensures, at least to some degree, that it is done responsibly. I know of illegal collecting which has been done hideously irresponsibly, I've literally felt violently ill when I've seen what poachers have done to large areas of habitat and at least to some degree, people doing it legally will be more responsible.


----------



## dobermanmick (Nov 1, 2004)

hugsta said:


> Does CALM put a number on the amount of any one species that can be taken from the wild?
> 
> Surely if you had enough of one species then you are bound to end up with some that breed.
> 
> Why don't CALM only permit those ppl that have permits to only sell what has been captive bred?



Yes Hugsta i think you have made some valid points there 
I do think they should have a quota on how many they can take 
Also why should they sell adults and not just captive bred hatchies ?

At least if they want to build up there own captive bred colony surely that would be the way to do it .And it would reduce the amount of snakes taken from the wild .


----------



## Sdaji (Nov 1, 2004)

> I do think they should have a quota on how many they can take
> Also why should they sell adults and not just captive bred hatchies ?



I strongly agree with this.


----------



## dobermanmick (Nov 1, 2004)

> I would rather pay $800 or so for someone to collect 8 stimmies for me than get my own, because I know that it would take me a heck of a lot more than $800 to get there and spend time searching etc, and I may not even be able to find any



I think they charge quite a bit more then $100each

http://www.aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=6746


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

Gregory, what small chance of blowing a tyre. Have you ever been onto station land in the Pilbara?. Obviously not. We blow tyres regularly so your facts are out. It's not all bitumen here pal. I take two spares with me and it's not uncommon to need both.
I wont be drawn into a moral argument, if i wanted that i would join Greenpeace.
None of you are forced to pay the WA prices so if you dont like them, dont buy the animals. Take your complaints about the export fee ( yes i agree it is ridiculous and is there to discourage trade and to fill CALM's coffers ) to CALM but that is not something i have any control over. Be f....ed if i am paying it though.
If you feel so strongly about this topic i say again, why dont you complain to CALM and lobby to have it changed. If all you are prepared to do is waffle [email protected]#t here then what really is your point mate? Where are you going with this and what outcome are you aiming for?


----------



## dobermanmick (Nov 1, 2004)

On a side note I thought you could by 4wd tyres that have a warranty against staking ?


----------



## Sdaji (Nov 1, 2004)

> think they charge quite a bit more then $100each



Oops! Yes, I realise that! The 8 stimsons was a typo. Sorry. But the message is still the same, if I wanted to collect a pair of stimsoni for myself, or even two or three pairs, it would cost far more than if I bought from one of the licensed collectors, even with their "enormous" prices.

I thought you were staying out of this one? :lol:


----------



## dobermanmick (Nov 1, 2004)

No i was sitting on the fence watching . :lol:


----------



## Gregory (Nov 1, 2004)

Sdaji said:


> Gregory, if wild animals can be taken for profit, without damaging the populations, do you have a problem with it?



I don't have a problem if there are limits in place and only the offspring are sold on. I do have a problem with adult animals being collected and sold.





> I eat fish, they are harvested from the wild, someone is profiting from me buying them.



But you can also go out and catch your own John.




> As long as those collecting them are doing it responsibly



Are there any checks in place to see that it is being done responsibly?




> I think it would be silly to say that the animals shouldn't be collected at all.



I never said they shouldn't be collected at all. I just don't agree that an elite few can do it for profit.





> I know of illegal collecting which has been done hideously irresponsibly, I've literally felt violently ill when I've seen what poachers have done to large areas of habitat and at least to some degree, people doing it legally will be more responsible.



Again, what system is in place to police the so called legal poachers?








womas4me said:


> I wont be drawn into a moral argument, if i wanted that i would join Greenpeace.



Funny how people who profit from this sort of thing always ignore the morality of it.




> Where are you going with this and what outcome are you aiming for?





I'm aiming for nothing. I know nothing will change. I'm expressing my opinion and have invited people to voice theirs as well.






Greg.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

Ah, i want to know though, how exactly am i profiting from this. Have you somehow seen my cash book. I havn't come halfway to covering my costs so until the expenses are paid i make NO profit. So the real problem is that i make money from catching a wild animal and selling it to someone who want's to buy it.
OK to answer your question, define responsibly catching a reptile. Does this involve a certain moral technique. How about you post all your questions and i will answer them using the legislation. 
I have some questions though.
1. Where realistically does morality come into this. I am not asking for how you feel but for facts about how this is effecting the current wild populations and the potential impact it will have in the future on reptile populations. Basically i want to know why you feel this way. ' Because i do ' is a cop out answer. Also try to substantiate your opinion for me with any evidence you may have.
2. Saying ' i know nothing will change ' is a very defeatist statement Gregory. What you are saying is that you dont have the heart to stand up for what you believe and would rather winge about it. You would rather gather public opinion for no worthwhile reason. Why arn't you doing something about this issue which you believe strongly in. This thread will not change anything, it has to start somewhere so why not with you?


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 1, 2004)

I'm wondering if there is a quota system or not.Also if there is any incentive for the handful of collectors out there to breed up wild caught stock and establish captive bred stock to supply the australia wide demand for these animals.


----------



## Gregory (Nov 1, 2004)

womas4me said:


> Ah, i want to know though, how exactly am i profiting from this. Have you somehow seen my cash book.



Obviously the profit's there to be had otherwise you wouldn't be doing it. How you run your business and it's profits and losses are up to you. That's something I can't answer. 



> OK to answer your question, define responsibly catching a reptile. Does this involve a certain moral technique.



Do you replace every rock you turn over? Do you leave a landscape the way it was before you got there? If you do, good on you but I'm sure irresponsible collecting does happen. 




> Where realistically does morality come into this. I am not asking for how you feel but for facts about how this is effecting the current wild populations and the potential impact it will have in the future on reptile populations.



This is something that may never be known. You may be wiping out whole generations of animals that would ordinarily be a part of a unique eco system. Who knows what long term damage it may or may not do. Can you guarantee that no changes WILL take place? 





> Saying ' i know nothing will change ' is a very defeatist statement Gregory.



True it is. I just can't help thinking that way. Only history will prove me right or wrong. 


I didn't start this thread for any type of crusade. If I lived in WA I may well have taken up the cause but as I'm in Sydney it's not for me to do. From over here my only protest will be to not buy any WA animals that have been wild caught. I only hope other people will feel the same. 
I only opened up lines of communication and was hoping for a sensible debate. Maybe someone could have convinced me that it's ok to take animals and sell them. I can't see that happening though. 




Greg.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

No and no. There is one incentive in that there is no royalty on captive bred animals. CB are the only ones that CALM doesnt collect a fee for provided it is done in WA. If i was to import a CB animal from another state CALM still takes a fee. Where is the incentive for WA dealers to import CB stock when CALM takes a cut of everything.
IMO, years ago CALM should have legalised collecting for those intending to breed animals to supply to the public in general once licensing came into place. There COULD HAVE BEEN a number of comercial breeders who then were loaded with captive bred animals of various ages. This would have seen the current system changed somewhat. But these are all COULD HAVE's and mean nothing now.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

Incedentally, several major players in the reptile breeding and supply scene are currently sourcing WA stock for the purpose of getting a CB program in place. This is a good thing. I too want to see CB animals in WA but for now the only way that will happen is for breeding size animals to be removed from the wild and bred in captivity. I have no idea how many this involves to have a self sustaining population but there are many different localities in WA so therefore i can see it taking alot of animals so we dont have the massive hybridisation and loss of locality pure animals seen across other states.


----------



## obee (Nov 1, 2004)

i hear ya greg,i agree with your stance.i refused wild caught bhp's from wa.call me stupid but i just couldn't justify it.i believe a quota should be collected for establishing a captive population but the breeders be kept not sold.just my opinion.


obee


----------



## Greebo (Nov 1, 2004)

Over the weekend, during our reptile display I was amazed at how many people told me they had a reptile at home that they had found and kept. Lizards , turtles, snakes, frogs, you name it. These people are not trying to make a profit and most of them probably thought they were doing the animal a favour. I know as a kid I would bring animals home myself, that's where my interest in herps first started.
A few people have mentioned how far behind WA is but we only went legal in NSW in 97. Are we really so far ahead?


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 1, 2004)

To Gregory and others that think a like.
There is such a thing as sustainable harvesting with the key point being sustainable.
Species that are on the list to be harvested are indeed very common animals and are not in immediate danger of having their numbers diminished to a point of being vulnerable by 15 licensed takers through out our state. To think other wise is just plain ridiculous and clearly demonstrates what some people do not grasp. As for C.A.L.M.s perspective, do you really think that they just woke up one day and said ?oh what a good idea ?They have thought long and hard about this and would not have allowed this process to begin if they thought that there would be any realistic chance of any species becoming vulnerable. Another point is that C.A.L.M imposes large export fees to discourage the incentive of licensed takers over here to export. After all the main reason they have allowed the harvesting in the first place is so that W.A people can actually have their first chance to keep and breed these reptiles. And for all the people that don?t want black and white black heads and wild caught woma?s etc so what. There are hundreds of other very happy people who shall enjoy them immensely. Oh and the next time I find a gravid woma I will try to think of the morals of it all but it could be a little difficult as I am sure I would at that point of time have a stiffy.


----------



## obee (Nov 1, 2004)

LMFAO,some valid points


OBEE


----------



## africancichlidau (Nov 1, 2004)

ROFLMBAO  PP


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

Greebo, you guys had an amnesty in NSW. I dont know too much about the fine print with it but i believe you put your hand up and whatever you had was licensed no questions asked. As i said i dont know the fine print with that though. Over here the amnesty wiould be hand them in and dont get prosecuted.


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 1, 2004)

> i hear ya greg,i agree with your stance.i refused wild caught bhp's from wa.call me stupid but i just couldn't justify it



Correct me if i am wrong but i recall you obee, saying you were helping to move many of the WA wc animals?

These guys who have gone through the processses"which i believe were pretty full on" to be licenced collectors are now providing "legaly" many, many animals that many of us have wanted to keep for years and many of us have not even seen them at all.I think if anyone is majorly profiting out of this it is CALM. 

As for sustainable populations being left behind i think that many of us would be surprised that the local aboriginals eat womas,bhps etc all the time..think about that one!!!!!

Nobody has raised the legal collecting in NT who collect most animals that are and have been cb for quite some time now...

I love the WA animals and if it weren't for the licenced collectors we wouldn't be able to enjoy seeing and keeping them in captivity as recently as we have.......


----------



## obee (Nov 1, 2004)

you are incorrect browns.i was asked if i would move various species payment being animals, i declined.
as for aboriginal ppl eating herps,yes that is something that also should be looked into with a possible control.
i'm not saying they shouldn't be collected,just collected animals shouldn't be sold.i agree with the point made about sustainability.who has studied and concluded that it's all good.


obee


----------



## BROWNS (Nov 1, 2004)

> you are incorrect browns.i was asked if i would move various species payment being animals, i declined.



I stand corrected!!!


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 1, 2004)

Forget about the money hangup. It is ether sustainable or it isn't. If it isn't then it shouldn't continue. If on the other hand it is sustainable then so what if some ones makes money. Do we care if a commercial fisherman makes a living ? I would say no. However we would be gravely concerned if he was devastating a particular species to the point of no return even if he was just giving them away.


----------



## Fuscus (Nov 1, 2004)

This is rich. The person who thinks you should keep quiet if you find someone with illegal exotics talking about moral obligation. :roll:

$250 isn't a bad price for a WC stimpsons, especially if you factor in tax and costs, I'ld be surprised if the collector pockets $50.
There are all sorts of costs in the animal trade : cages, food, vet fees, fuel, rent, electricity, accountant..

Sometimes animals must be kept for quite a while due to injury or poor condition or that they just don't sell. Then the one in ten shipment where the buyer is recalcitrant with the payment. Then bad weather can stop you collecting for weeks. Then a break down can take out a whole week. Then an infectious disease (or mites ) can render your entire stock unsellable until cured. 

And on top of it all they have to deal with CALM.


----------



## westaussie (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

So many opinions from people without any knowledge of the subject they are ranting about. (I guess its not the first time)

I dont know about you other two licenced takers, but I am not making alot of money out of this. If I was in it for the money I would be a sorry man by now. (could even lead me to drink)

All these people on their moral high ground, with very little facts.

maybe everyone with animals that originated from w/c lineage should give them up.

I hope stimsons dont become extinct in that little area called the "pilbara."


----------



## womas4me (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

You never know westaussie. I only have around 10 million acres of land i am allowed to collect from. With 40 enclosures i could devastate this place. I might have to get more land..................


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

( could even lead me to drink ) Now come on West Aussie I know you already drunk plenty before you had a license and I know you would drink even more if you were rich.


----------



## westaussie (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

well this naive thread has lead me to crack a beer right now !


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

This beer talk has just got to stop because my fridge is empty #%$*^


----------



## Greebo (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

You guys presented your side of the story pretty well to start off with but these last couple of snide remarks took the gloss off it.


----------



## basketcase (Nov 1, 2004)

meh. theyre entitled to be pissed off


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

yes, mature, very mature. :roll: :wink:


----------



## Simon_Archibald (Nov 1, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

A familiar point that is continually raised seems to be that it's deemed OK to collect wild animals for captive breeding programs, however it's wrong to sell those adults to another keeper.

If the keeper that buys the animals breeds them then what's the problem? Just because the collector didn't breed them. Realistically it seems to me like it would be easier for the general public of all other states to buy these animals if the collector sells the adults. What I mean by this is:
(1) Situation A: collector takes pair of Stimsons Pythons and breeds them. Collector breeds these animals and then advertises 8 hatchlings. If 8 different people want those animals from other states, those 8 people need to each pay $180 to CALM before they even pay for the animal, freight, etc.

*OR*

(2) Situation B: collector takes a pair of Stimsons Pythons and sells them once health-checked to a keeper in NSW. This keeper breeds them and hatches out 8 animals. Each of these snakes are sold locally to different keepers who now don't have to go through the worry of CALM's fees.

It seems by my average example that the on-selling of adult animals would actually aid more people in getting these animals in their collections sooner...encouraged by not having to pay hefty fees. These people are then able to breed soon after and more and more become available over time, reducing the need to take from the wild anyways.

That's just my view anyways...

westaussie, womas, PP : I will be PM'ing you a bit later...please reply ASAP if you could.

Simon Archibald


----------



## hugsta (Nov 2, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

Good idea Simon. When will you have some hatchy WA stimpsons for sale then??

I understand why these do what they do. As i stated earlier if I was over there I would probably do the same. However I want to know if they give you guys a limit on what you can take, as in a particular amount per species or is it open slather and take as many as you want.





> You guys presented your side of the story pretty well to start off with but these last couple of snide remarks took the gloss off it.


Have to agree with Greebo there.



> meh. theyre entitled to be urinated off


Fair enough, but to go on like that was not called for. I personally found this an interesting debate.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*

Hugsta, there are no limits on the number of animals that can be taken, only a limit to certain species. So technically if a herp taker wanted to clean out a certain area they could, provided they comply with the conditions on the license.

So saying, most takers do not do this. CALM can see on our returns where we are collecting from and it is up to them to decide whether enough have been removed from that area and to restrict or disallow further collecting from that location.


----------



## Simon_Archibald (Nov 2, 2004)

*RE: Re: Collecting Wild Reptiles.*



hugsta said:


> Good idea Simon.



Aren't they all?



hugsta said:


> When will you have some hatchy WA stimpsons for sale then??



I don't do snakes.

Simon Archibald


----------



## RAZZA (Nov 2, 2004)

Guys all domestic animals originally came from wild animals.. dog/cat/horse/rabbit/pig the list goes on and on......
Personally if i could afford the cost for some of the sleepy's i would be getting them
Is it the fact that they are collecting wild and on selling these to others..??? or is it the fact they are a high price that is peeveing people off...???
What if these guys were to sell these at a more reasonable price...??? say take a smaller markup on them but then sell many more......??? they would have to collect more to make up for it.....

It will be nice to see when some of the gex and especially the some of the dragons can be collected.....  :wink: 

Too true simon.....

cheers


----------



## obee (Nov 2, 2004)

i haven't mentioned anything financial about any collector.if stimy's were $2000 or $20 it wouldn't phase me.my whole concern was as just stated that it is open slatter controled by calm.are they really on the ball with there limits of species being taken?have they told any collectors to stop collecting from an area?or thats the limit and to stop.i know of an isolated escarpment out west.wouldn't take me long to impact on the colony of stimy's there.they are easy to find.that population could be non-existant in know time if several ppl were collecting from it.
some good examples simon also.i would like wa stuff but the free wild stuff didn't interest me,i would however like captive bred stuff,i can wait.are you guys who are collecting,setting up,or are breeding these species you are collecting or are you just collecting and selling?
just my opinion.

obee


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

Takers are only able to wholesale animals, we cannot sell to the public and we cannot breed from anything under that license. Nor are we allowed to breed anything under a dealers license. The only people who are legally able to breed reptiles are keepers or farmers. Would you have us break the conditions on our license ( and risk losing it ) to keep the moral minority happy?
The collectors are here to supply the pet industry with animals for them to SELL. We are doing just that.


----------



## Gregory (Nov 2, 2004)

PilbaraPythons said:


> As for C.A.L.M.s perspective, do you really think that they just woke up one day and said ?oh what a good idea ?They have thought long and hard about this and would not have allowed this process to begin if they thought that there would be any realistic chance of any species becoming vulnerable.



You're kidding aren't you? How many times do you see a Govt. Dept go in half arsed into a situation. C'mon, get real with this one.




> Oh and the next time I find a gravid woma I will try to think of the morals of it all but it could be a little difficult as I am sure I would at that point of time have a stiffy.



My point exactly about profiteering from wild animals. Taking that gravid Woma removes any chance for the wild population to keep expanding and sustaining itself naturally all because of greed.



BROWNS said:


> As for sustainable populations being left behind i think that many of us would be surprised that the local aboriginals eat womas,bhps etc all the time..think about that one!!!!!



That?s their right. I bet their thousands of years of harvesting wild animals hasn?t had anywhere near the impact that this so called legal collection has over this short amount of time.




PilbaraPythons said:


> Do we care if a commercial fisherman makes a living ?



People keep using this analogy. The difference being, anyone can go out and catch their own fish.




Westaussie said:


> So many opinions from people without any knowledge of the subject they are ranting about. (I guess its not the first time)



Ah, so that precludes us from forming an opinion and debating a subject to try and get to the facts?
The knowledge I have of the whole subject is that people are profiting from the sale of WC animals taken from places where even THEY couldn?t guarantee that there won?t be any long term repercussions.



womas4me said:


> You never know westaussie. I only have around 10 million acres of land i am allowed to collect from. With 40 enclosures i could devastate this place. I might have to get more land.



What you could be doing is devastating small pockets of animals and having an affect on that area?s populations that may or may not recover. Or can you guarantee that you aren?t?




womas4me said:


> Hugsta, there are no limits on the number of animals that can be taken, only a limit to certain species. So technically if a herp taker wanted to clean out a certain area they could, provided they comply with the conditions on the license.
> So saying, most takers do not do this. CALM can see on our returns where we are collecting from and it is up to them to decide whether enough have been removed from that area and to restrict or disallow further collecting from that location.



My point exactly. You?ve just reinforced what I?ve been trying to say. Thank you.

You say MOST takers don?t do this. You may not but others may. You can only talk for yourself and if you?re doing it by the book then well and good but as you pointed out there may be some that go in and clean out whole regions of it?s animals.

I rest my case.




Greg.


----------



## Cerion (Nov 2, 2004)

I think the WA Government needs to have a bloody good look at itself, maybe if the laws were a little less tight than what they are, said individuals in WA wouldn't have the need to "poach" as such. Given that this is my 2 1/2 cents worth cos it aint worth spending 5 cents on.

Think of it this way in NSW you reserve your reptile get your import license $20, pay for freight another $25. there's 45 bucks before you've paid your money over to the seller. As previously mentioned. Its ok if your grabbing a BHP or something more valuable where that amounts to a small percentage of the total bill. but what if its a gecko worth $40 you've just payed $85 for it. Though I am dead against poaching for profit. It becomes quite obvious that in other states where you can obtain a permit to collect from the wild you are actually keeping the genetics of animals a little more pure if you are obtaining for breeding purposes ONLY. Not just taking as much as you want for the hell of it and on selling your booty.

Is it that the WA government is trying to discourage any form of reptile keeping by having such high import / export permit prices. 
Money Money Money makes for good red tape. Why did they bother allowing licenses in the first palce if its such an issue with them.

Look at it from a perspective of fishing you can take as much of some species as you freakin want, with a total diregard for any other part of that waterways ecosystem. 

Like I said its my 2 1/2 cents worth and I may have com,pletely missed the point.


----------



## expansa1 (Nov 2, 2004)

If licensed (controlled) collecting from the wild in W.A was allowed 30 -40 years ago we probably wouldn't have the most endangered freshwater turtle in the world with an extremely small gene pool. The government has spent thousands$ bringing the western swamp turtle back from the brink of extinction which could have been avoided if they were being bred in captivity.
I agree, all our captive reptile populations were originally taken from the wild-they had to come from somewhere. You can't tell me that most reptile keepers haven't or won't profit from this hobby of reptile keeping at some stage. 
It is apparent a lot of people think it is morally wrong but what about all the animals lost to land clearing and pollution. I guarantee more reptiles are killed each year by bloody feral cats than will be taken by the 11 licensed to take reptiles from the wild. Our biggest problem in Australia isn't a handful of people with a licence to collect from the wild and potentially preserve a species but the devastation caused by the cattle farming and cotton industries, ferals, land clearing, animals killed on roads, pollution and the unstoppable increase in the human population. Our rivers are slowly but surely dying which is effecting all animals as they rely upon them. As they become polluted, the salinity increases, or rivers become choked with sediment the animals must adapt or perish.
I for one, would sooner have breeding populations of rare reptiles in captivity than to simply say thats life and it was meant to be.
expansa1


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

Your points are very valid Expansa1.

Greg, good. Now we wont have to hear from you in this thread anymore cause your points been made. Catch ya.

Cerion, i am not a ' poacher ' and neither are the other guys. It shows your ignorance of WA's licensing structure for you to use this term.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 2, 2004)

Greg
While I admire your sense of concern I feel that you clearly have a limited understanding of the environmental impact of removing a gravid woma regardless of the personal reward. I am asking you this. Do you honestly beleive if I took one gravid woma from an area that that particular area would not eventually have more of the same?. And you also say that the difference in the fishermans analogy is that everybody can catch there own. What has that got to do with it ?. At the end of the day Grieg many people will never morally agree with this whole system here but it seems to to be supported by many people that have graduated with degrees in environmental science etc. Could it it be that they have a clearer understanding of the matter than people like your self?.


----------



## Gregory (Nov 2, 2004)

No need to put a bloke down just because he's not a scientist mate. I can still have an opinion and voice it. We're all here to learn. 


Taking one Gravid Woma from an area may have little or no affect but taking many Womas from a given area WILL obviously have some sort of affect. Surely this reasoning isn't too far from fact. It's true what you say that many people will never morally agree with the system but by Christ I'll defend my right to an opinion until I'm convinced otherwise.



Greg


----------



## Fuscus (Nov 2, 2004)

If you were really worried about the effect on wild populations you would rant on the effect of development and roads have on reptile populations, not the dozen or so people trying to make an honest living. So far this year I have seen at least 500 reptiles removed from the wild population by cars.
Also one of the big differences between commercial collecting and amature collecting is that if the population drops ( either due to their efforts or due to other causes ) then the commercial collectors will move on, but amateurs will keep returning to the same spot again and again. You would find that easy to get to areas would suffer dramatic population crashes with amateur collecting.

To use the fishing analogy, in the late eighties the fish population of Port Phillip Bay crashed, for a couple of years there was almost no sizeable fish there. Sighting a bream or a flathead while diving was a very rare experence. Yet every wharf and pier would have 50 or so people fishing for the last sorry survivors.


----------



## bigguy (Nov 2, 2004)

It amazes me to no end how newcomers to this great hobby take this high and mighty moral ground that animals should NEVER be removed from the wild. Why, well simply put by most people nearly everything is captive bred these days and is readily available. There is no need to take from the wild.

But what these newcomers forget to realise is that they have entered the realm of herps at a time when the industry is refined and animals are now captive bred. But remember we had to start from somewhere, it was not always refined. 

There have been 3 amnesties in NSW since 1974 and literally thousands of illegally wild caught reptiles were declared on each amnesty. These reptiles were stollen from the bush with no control at all, and people sold and bought them at a drop of a hat. Now did it effect the populations of wild reptiles in NSW. No it did not. And I can easily assure you in the last 30 years in NSW private collectors would have taken illegally from the bush more reptiles than 15 legal collectors in WA could in 500 years. And WA is huge compared to NSW and has the largest reptile population in Australia

For the person who stated NSW reptile keeping only started in 1997, and we have gone so far in that short amount of time really doesn't know what he was talking about. Hundreds of reptile keepers were licenced in 1974 when the laws were first established. Again many more hundreds of illegal collections were licenced in a massive amnesty in 1987. These two periods in NSW reptile history were when the base for the current captive breeding programs started. In 1997 the currect laws started and captive bred animals were already available for any new licencee, which I might add are most of the people now complaining re wild caught animals. But dont forget. It has taken nearly 30 years of illegal collecting to get the eastern states to the point were we no longer have to take from the wild. I agree that now in the eastern states animals should no longer be wild caught due to the strong captive breeding program now in place.

But WA is 30 years behind us. Their reptile keeping has only just been allowed and they have no captive base to start from. Just as it happened in the eastern states, it has to start somewhere.

Now I think Calm went about it the right way. Rather then having all reptile keepers running around the bush raping national parks and destroying the habitat as happened in NSW, they have allowed a few individuals to be licenced to collect on behalf of all the reptile keepers. These people have to follow strick conditions while collecting, even supplying Calm with the GPS co-ordinance of each catptive reptile. Are they entilled to make money, of coarse they are. They have to cover huge licence fees, royalties on each animal caught to Calm, heavy maintainance on vehicles and not to mention $1.30 a lite for fuel.

It is also my understanding Calm are monitoring the amount of animals collected and when they feel enough of a species has been collected it will be removed from the takers list and another species may be added. I for one think its a fair system and wish NSW had adopted it many years ago. However, I also agree that Calms royalties and export/import fees are unbelievably high.

Too now say WA doesn't have the moral right to collect wild animals from breeding programs, is being a tad hypicritical. We in the Eastern States did exactly the same thing, but with one difference, uncontrolled rape of the bush


----------



## Gregory (Nov 2, 2004)

Geez Bob, you're always so quick to belittle a person because they haven't got as much experience as you. Be fair mate. Just because a person may be lacking the years of experience in keeping doesn't mean that an opinion can't be given. Do we all have to wait 30 years before we can speak up? Talk about high and mighty ground. Give people credit for at least prompting a debate about what a lot consider a serious issue. 

You say that it's taken 30 years of illegal collecting to have gotten to where we are now. You don't think the same thing hasn't been happening in WA for the same period of time? 

Another thing. I haven't said that they should NEVER be taken from the wild. What I've said is that in my opinion it would be preferable to take from the wild and breed and sell the offspring rather than going out collecting and selling off animals willy nilly. My initial objection was that people can go out and treat the country as a giant reptile supermarket and onsell animals for profit. I'd wholeheartedly back any plan that would eliminate the wholesale collection of animals in favour of defined and regulated breeding programs setup for the open market.


----------



## westaussie (Nov 2, 2004)

One of the landowners that have given me permission to take reptiles from their land is the "Satterley group" - This company clears land on a large scale for new housing development. ( I cannot complain about this practise as I choose to live in a house myself)

I particularly targeted these areas to do my "poaching", as I feel I am giving some of the wildlife a second chance at life. Unfortunately the animals that I do not find are left to tackle the bulldozers.

On other properties that have given me permission to enter their land, much of the habitat is already cleared for agriculture and grazing.
(The two largest threats to our native wildlife are destruction of habitat and introduced animals.

I have studied & worked with reptiles for over 15 years, but as yet, i have not developed the skills to find every individual reptile in a given area. The bulldozers & introduced animals seem to be far more effective than me.

landowners are allowed to clear their land of habitat and keep any feral pet and breed these pets without any breeding restrictions at all.

Saying this, I seek permission from landowners to remove some native reptiles from their property so we can establish these animals in captivity and give some kids the opportunity to keep a pet reptile.

In turn these kids will develop a better understanding of our native wildlife and hopefully a better appreciation of native ecosystems & habitats than the generations before them. 

So I will continue to do what I do and invite anyone who believes that I am a poacher to come along on a field trip with me and see first hand what actually goes on out there before judging me. 

You never know - you may even learn a thing or two! ( because I do everytime i get out there )


----------



## expansa1 (Nov 2, 2004)

Here Here Bob!!

And Greg,
stop taking everything as a personal attack. Please just look at the big picture. The reason for these groups is to debate topics such as these without individuals feeling the need to think every comment is a personal attack!
You ARE entitled to your opinion whether or not it is right or wrong! No one is going to deny you of that!
expansa1


----------



## Fuscus (Nov 2, 2004)

Greg, you deliberatly start a provocative thread using provocative language and now you are complaining you have provoked a reaction. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
And if you can collect animals but only sell the offspring, what animals are going to be targeted - gravid females of course.


----------



## Gregory (Nov 2, 2004)

I haven't taken much of anything personally expansa. I'm just answering criticisms and retorts is all. 
I started this whole thread off with the statement that none of this was personal. Having said that there's been a few points raised that seem to single people out for their supposed lack of experience..
I'm not targeting the person I'm targeting the act. 

Westaussie, If I were in a position to do so I'd willingly accept your invitation. 
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating my belief in what I think is wrong. Surely I have that right.


Ah Puhlease fucsus. Give over mate. We're trying to conduct a rational debate here. Don't start getting narky. Things will just deteriorate and the thread will crash and burn.



Greg.


----------



## bigguy (Nov 2, 2004)

As expansia stated, I was not directing an attack at anyone. I was mearly given a history lesson to the new members to the hobby who have now taken a moral high ground. If they think it is so wrong, dont keep reptiles because your stock was probably breed from illegally caught animals.

As for gregorys comment re Wa illegally collecting. Yes I am sure it took place as well in WA, but with one exception
, and that being Calm did not hold any amnesties to make these illegal animals legal.


----------



## hey_im_sam (Nov 2, 2004)

I have to say this has been a quite interesting read  
I didn't see Bob's post as intentionally belittling - the fact is that he has been around and does have a different perspective, and was adding that to the 'discussion'  womas, west, & pp, your posts have been well put, managing to keep a bit of coherency when being attacked like that is admirable! I got a lot out of them. 
Obviously there are going to be a lot of people with a moral objection to the collecting. I struggle with it myself, it doesn't sit quite right. However when I weigh it against a few facts and think rationally and logically for a minute, my moral objection doesn't seem to have a leg to stand on. Without animals legally available, there would be far more illegally collected animals. I'm not saying it doesn't still happen, but with animals legally available the demand for the illegal will lessen... thus so will the supply. Having licensed collectors like the three on this forum take from the wild is, in my opinion, far better than poachers.
To protect reptiles in the wild, a captive population needs to be established. CALM is making this happen in the way they deem best, though obviously again there will be people disagreeing with parts of it. I think the fees are insane, but they serve a purpose - every animal exported is one less for WA's captive population. 
That being said, are the import fees anything other than self-serving? (serious question that one guys!) That seems only to limit the growth of the captive population.. locality data may be preserved I suppose.. anyone?


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

And they have no intention of an amnesty either. They prosecute vigoursly anyone found with illegal reptiles and actively persue leads and tip offs that may lead them to prosecute. CALM's view and rightly so is that if your doing it illegally now or before licensing was introduced they will try their damnest to find and prosecute you. Already one person has had thier collectors license cancelled.


----------



## westaussie (Nov 2, 2004)

Sam, I am all for dropping import fees. The more animals we import the less we need to take. But we can only work with the system that we have.


----------



## Fuscus (Nov 2, 2004)

> That being said, are the import fees anything other than self-serving? (serious question that one guys!) That seems only to limit the growth of the captive population.. locality data may be preserved I suppose.. anyone?


The import fees proberly serve a number of purposes
1 / It helps to pay for inspections ( if they occur )
2 / It limits the traffic interstate. They proberly don't want thousands of sleepies imported to later escape ( or be released ) and mingle with the locals
3 / CALM is interested in WA reptiles and reptile collectors. They are proberly trying to insure that the WA demand is serviced by the collectors before the interstate demand.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

The actual import permit fee is not too bad but I believe that CALM should not take a royalty off imported animals.


----------



## Simon_Archibald (Nov 2, 2004)

The import system probably is a downer for you guys that would like to keep eastern species, but at this stage I think it is still really great that keepers from all over the country now have available guaranteed locality-pure animals whose location data is reliable and accurate. Unfortunately there are just too many animals out there that are bred of different localities, and have different colourations, but they are bred for being the same species (ie. Pogona vitticeps, Morelia sp, Varanus acanthurus are just a few of the commonly available species where this seems to happen).

This locality information is not only useful to the keeper and their subsequent purchasers, but also for conservation purposes if this knowledge is needed later on.

Simon Archibald


----------



## Magpie (Nov 2, 2004)

OK, I'm seeing a few diferent points of view here. Please bear with me while I try and clear this up for my own sake:
PP says that these animals are very common, no chance of decreasing populations by collecting but Womas says that they are hard to find and he has to travel large distances and spend lots of money to find them.
It's ok to wild collect in WA because their licence system has just started, but not elsewhere because they have CB animals already? Why not simply allow the importation of eastern states animals?
If it's not about profiteering, why are womas and blackheads so much more expensive than stims? I know they have a higher fee, but not that much. Note: no problem with this, just don't try and deny it.

I do not really care about these things, it's just stuff I picked up on reading this thread.

Now as I said... my problem is with the system. I was misinformed it seems... I was told you can only sell the results of ONE breeding of your animals per year, and then only to a pet shop or farmer. My impression was if this was the case... why would they bother to buy from hobby breeders rather than wild takers?


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

Magpie, we cant just take anything we find from anywhere. I cant just pick up a stimi i find on the road. We need written permission from the manageing authority of the land we want to collect from to collect from it. The closest land i have is 80 km away. Then there is the travel around the property to get to the suitable locations. The reptiles are plentiful when you are in the right spot though. The cost comes from numerous things. As bigguy said, deisel is over $1.30 a litre. Put that into perspective with two tanks of fuel in a night and i have just outlayed over $150. Just on fuel.
Also, we should we in WA have to keep eastern states reptiles when i personally believe that we have some of the most [email protected]#t hot looking ones around. I have seen accies from over there that are just plain bland. Why should we be subjected to that when ours are great and anything but. In many years time when the whole wild caught debate is over, there will be a wide variety of animals about, not just those that occur in the east. This is a good thing IMO.
Also, no one but a dealer or a farmer can buy reptiles from a collector. A taker cannot export, import, breed or sell to the public. All a taker can do is sell to dealers or farmers. Thats it. The takers market is very small.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 2, 2004)

> Hundreds of reptile keepers were licenced in 1974 when the laws were first established


 I vaguely remember something about that but I was only 4 yrs old at the time. 
Silly me! I thought the current licensing system only came in in '97 and Jeff Hardy has license RK50001.

I just a simple country boy.... Ma! Where's me banjo?


----------



## ad (Nov 2, 2004)

I think CALM should put an immediate ban on WA reptile collecting! 
My opinion changed now I own these animals! Anyone who wants cb wa hatchys please pm me and get on my waiting list.
Seriously, the main benefit is owning some of the best reptiles in the country -previously unavailable. Once CALM dont renew licenses this will never be repeated again, I am hoping they add ant-hills to the list soon. Guaranteed I will get some and without a hint of moral guilt.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

You will have to wait for us to stop collecting them for ourselves first Ad. I love the little guys and see heaps of em.


----------



## Guest (Nov 2, 2004)

> Anyone who wants cb wa hatchys please pm me and get on my waiting list.



what are cb?

cheers
pete


----------



## Greebo (Nov 2, 2004)

Captive bred


----------



## Guest (Nov 2, 2004)

ok, then what hatchies? all or some types...?


----------



## Gabe (Nov 2, 2004)

I believe Ad is talking about WA Black headed pythons. They are gorgeous for sure!!!


----------



## bigguy (Nov 2, 2004)

Greebo, in 1997 the current reptile keepers licences came into use, but before then everyone held reptiles in NSW on a General Licence.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks mate.


----------



## bigguy (Nov 2, 2004)

To every one thinking that collecting reptiles from the wild will have an effect on wild populations, you should try and find the scientific paper that was co authored by several professional herps in NSW several years ago.

In this paper they estimated the over 20,000,000 reptiles are killed by man every year. These deaths are attributed to personal attacks on reptiles, roadkills, land clearing and fires lite by men.

Now in this paper they estimated that around 20,000 reptiles are collected from the wild by kids, reptile keepers and professional herpers in a year also.

They go on to conclude that at these figues you would need to collect for 1000years just to match what is killed by man in one year in Australia.

This does not take into account the billions that are killed by feral cats, foxes, cane toads and pigs each year.

Another interesting paper that was getting around was the one that estimated that the Wildlfe authorites around Australia had spent a multi million dollars budget on law enforcement over a ten year period. In this time some several thousand illegal reptiles were seized from around Australia, which the authorities felt justified their huge budgets.

The paper went on to say that if the authorities had spent about $0.40c and purchased just two 22 calibor bullets and shot just 2 feral cats they would have saved the same amount of reptiles. 

When you look at it like this its had to justify the huge budgets wasted on the law enforcement of our hobbies.


----------



## ad (Nov 2, 2004)

That's incredible bigguy, puts some perspective on it.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 2, 2004)

Grieg 
How do you think I have belittled you? I simply asked you a valid Question. Regardless of the fact that we may not agree with all of your views, We here at Pilbara Pythons have enjoyed this forum and are glad you started it. After all look how many hits this bebate has created and people are being entertained. Have a very strong coffee Grieg and chill out.


----------



## Gregory (Nov 2, 2004)

I never said you belittled anyone PP. I commented about Bob (Bigguy). You must have read it wrong. You've had too many coffees old mate. Time to cut back I reckon :wink: 

It has been a good thread, in general. I'm certain we've all learned a lot from it.

Greg.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 2, 2004)

Grieg your words were in fact these (No need to put a bloke down). Now when I went to school Grieg that had the same meaning as belittled. Is it that you didn't actually ever go to school Grieg that you can't seem to grasp this?


----------



## Guest (Nov 2, 2004)

> but it seems to to be supported by many people that have graduated with degrees in environmental science etc. Could it it be that they have a clearer understanding of the matter than people like your self?.



I think Greg was refering to this comment, in which in my eyes, is "putting a bloke down". Whether or not it means belittle, you certainly have proven the meaning of belittle in your last statement. 

Time for you my friend to cut down on the caffeine, and stay on the topic without insults or "belittling".


----------



## dobermanmick (Nov 2, 2004)

westaussie said:


> One of the landowners that have given me permission to take reptiles from their land is the "Satterley group" - This company clears land on a large scale for new housing development. ( I cannot complain about this practise as I choose to live in a house myself)
> 
> I particularly targeted these areas to do my "poaching", as I feel I am giving some of the wildlife a second chance at life. Unfortunately the animals that I do not find are left to tackle the bulldozers.
> 
> ...




Thanks westaussie for a very well thought out comment And thanks for clearing up a few things I love the Fact that you collect from places where the Reptiles have little chance of survival .

I originnally did not like the idea of wild collection and voiced my opinion I would now like to say As long as collectors Do what westaussie is then i will have to eat my words....... 
Cheers mate


----------



## dobermanmick (Nov 2, 2004)

Ohh And if i am ever over that way i would like to take you up on your offer !


----------



## Greebo (Nov 2, 2004)

> So I will continue to do what I do and invite anyone who believes that I am a poacher to come along on a field trip


 Well, I'm not saying you are a poacher but that would be one cool field trip!


----------



## Gregory (Nov 2, 2004)

I don't think we should turn this into a slanging match now PP. We've been going along pretty well with no Admin intervention. It only defeats the purpose if we bung it on with each other.

Oh and you don't spell Greg with an I PP.


Greg. &lt;--------- see! No I.


----------



## Sdaji (Nov 2, 2004)

> It has been a good thread, in general. I'm certain we've all learned a lot from it.



I haven't learned all that much, but my knowledge of the fact that people are far too emotional and will talk too much, irrespective of their level of knowledge or experience and disregard the fact that others may have far more knowledge than themselves has been reaffirmed. No, I'm not claiming to be the most knowledgable or experienced person here, but I do claim that my opinions on this matter are based on reason rather than emotion. Despite that, it has been a good thread in many ways.

I think bigguy summed it up best when he put into perspective the numbers of reptiles killed needlessly by people each year as well as the huge numbers killed by feral pests next to the comparitively tiny numbers taken by people to be kept alive and cared for, and also the insane money spent regulating the whole thing next to shooting a couple of cats. What a joke when two bullets put into a couple of cats will save more reptiles than the numbers nabbed from poachers and smugglers, even after the millions of our dollars that go into policing the whole thing.

What has always been an astonishment to me is that no one tells me off when I catch dozens of fish to kill and eat once each but legally catching an animal to be cared for as a pet is considered by some to be 'immoral'. I can't quote exact figures, but I'm pretty sure Aboriginals kill and eat more reptiles than are captured for pets, yet no one (or at least very few) seems to think this is bad. I am quite certain that there is far more benefit in breeding a wild caught reptile, or even caring for it as a pet without breeding it than making it into part of a meal. It is quite a sight when a group of aboriginals tuck into a large meal of womas (no, I haven't seen it in person, only footage and photos).

Sure the system may not be perfect, but it's not a terrible system and we can't just say that because it's not perfect it shouldn't exist. No system will ever be perfect. If I'd designed it, it would have been different, but along with my system removing some of the current problems and adding some benefits, it would have caused other problems and not have had some of the current benefits. I think the same can be said for the systems most of us would have come up with from scratch.

We have to accept that without being silly there isn't much of an argument for animals not to be collected within some legally regulated system and no system will be perfect and there will always be the opportunity to abuse it, but having no system at all will cause more problems than the current regulated system.

I say bravo, it's great to see a regulated system in place, even if I think it's imperfect. I hope to see more species added to the list, particularly pygmy pythons... (hint hint to anyone with any weight in getting it to happen  )


----------



## Greebo (Nov 2, 2004)

> I think bigguy summed it up best when he put into perspective the numbers of reptiles killed needlessly by people each year as well as the huge numbers killed by feral pests next to the comparitively tiny numbers taken by people to be kept alive and cared for,


 I actually thought that was the major flaw in his argument. If you follow that logic then there is nothing wrong with me going to a spot I know and "collecting" a few Bell's Phase monitors (little ones of course). I promise I would look after them real good and considering the damage done to herps by all the other factors, I would really be doing them a favour when you think about it.


----------



## Sdaji (Nov 2, 2004)

> I actually thought that was the major flaw in his argument. If you follow that logic then there is nothing wrong with me going to a spot I know and "collecting" a few Bell's Phase monitors (little ones of course). I promise I would look after them real good and considering the damage done to herps by all the other factors, I would really be doing them a favour when you think about it.



I don't really see the parallel, you seem to be missing the point. He didn't say we should take as many animals from the wild as we possibly can, he has clearly been saying that the numbers needed to establish captive populations are far below the numbers which would cause harm. I think he even pointed out that while it was great the collecting was occuring in WA, it wasn't necessary for the eastern states because those populations already exist, and as I'm sure you know, Bell's phase lacies are well represented in captivity, so by his arguments there is no need to collect them. In a sense you're right though, if a few were collected and cared for, it wouldn't cause any harm, if you collected little ones it would probably just deprive a couple of kookaburras of a feed, which you could replace with a couple of pieces of steak.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 2, 2004)

WHAT!!!!! Waste steak on a kookaburra. Get a grip man.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Nov 2, 2004)

Heh Greg &lt; no i
I do apologise for the last comment. I was reallt just trying to bait you a bit to get you going. And I don't know how to insert those emotion symbols into the post. So no hard feelings. But gee I was having so much fun.


----------



## RAZZA (Nov 3, 2004)

Big Guy... not too sure which paper you are talking about with your figures but here's one from the government on the commercial utilisation of australian native wildlife..senate

www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/wild/report/contents.htm

this covers a fair few facts...

cheers


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

Ok, here goes my second post in this topic... womas4me i like the way that u are trying to preserve the wildlife in a domed area from development etc and in the future i would love to make a big order to u with my wishlist, (when i get my own place). i don't like the idea however (not saying u do) of collectors going into an established area of wildlife and decimating the reptile population to make a buck. 

On another note, have u ever found any pygmy pythons?  . i hope a breeding thing is established 4 them., 

cheers pete


----------



## westaussie (Nov 3, 2004)

> womas4me i like the way that u are trying to preserve the wildlife in a domed area from development etc



That was me who posted that.



> i don't like the idea however (not saying u do) of collectors going into an established area of wildlife and decimating the reptile population to make a buck.



Where &amp; when has this happened ???????

Could someone please show me where all this "raping &amp; pilaging" is happening! I am yet to see any evidence of this &amp; I am actually out there to see for myself, Maybe I am blind.

I could use the same argument that I HATE the idea of eastern states keepers who cook &amp; eat thier pet reptiles. It is *true* that I hate this idea even though I have *no proof* that it has ever happened. 

Can anyone show me some facts rather than emotive thoughts hatched from distorted imaginations.

Please ?


----------



## womas4me (Nov 3, 2004)

Lib, this area here in the pilbara is not widely developed. Not a great deal of it has even had white man walk on it. From experience that i have gained through actually being in the field, the pilbara has a massive reptile density. I could go out and find 200 stimsons and not make a significant impact on the numbers any regular herper would see. I DO NOT ' rape and pillage ' any set area, but rather i move around a great deal so that the impact i have is not centred on any one location. Alot of people dont seem to grasp that we are not just doing this for a buck, we are reptile enthusiests ourselves and if this money we make was to provide us with a living then we would be poor men indeed. If i didn't have a love of reptiles why would i spend so much money doing this for such little return, and believe me it is not alot of money if taken in perspective. If all you can see is the end $$$ then you have no grasp of the real picture. Oh, and if you ask you will probably find that we do have reptiles of our own that we are keeping to breed from in the future.


----------



## hey_im_sam (Nov 3, 2004)

Perhaps he was referring to the fact that it does happen with 'poachers', and the term 'collectors' was used loosely? Saw a great (and sad) doco on the broad-headed snake a month or two ago, and i know that a fair few members on this forum have stories regarding a favourite "secret" spot becoming known to a few other individuals, only to return to find every rock overturned, and not 10% of the herps that were there before. I'm not saying this against any of you licensed collectors, but I understand how it would be too easy to make a comparison.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2004)

Sorry if i offended, thought what sam said is what i was thinking, thanks 4 clearing it up.


----------



## hey_im_sam (Nov 3, 2004)

For the record, and to re-enforce a previous post of mine, I think you three have made some great posts, good logical, rational discussion, and although some people don't seem to think so there has been a lot to be learned from this thread. The laws surrounding it, the small number of licenses, the watch CALM seems to keep on you...; all seem to be doing their best to keep things under control. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from any of you because of what I've heard here, and I came in sceptical. 

Side-note 2a; Any ideas when perthensis and pilbarensis might be on the lists?


----------



## womas4me (Nov 3, 2004)

Sam, no idea when the list will change. CALM are resisting change ATM as they believe there is enough different species available. I think they should drop a few species that no one wants off and put some others on.
By pilbarensis are you referring to the monitor?


----------



## westaussie (Nov 3, 2004)

Womas,

there is a herp committee meeting at c.a.l.m head office on the 11th of this month and extending the species list is high on our agenda. C.a.l.m have been quite positive about adding to the list and I have already submitted a list of possible species additions, and yes, perthensis is one of the animals that I have suggested.


----------



## womas4me (Nov 3, 2004)

Best of luck then. I was talking to them last week about it and Adrian said it was highly unlikely things would change just yet. I hope you guys are successful with it.


----------



## Simon_Archibald (Nov 3, 2004)

Westaussie,
Please, whatever you do, make ABSOLUTELY SURE that Varanus pilbarensis is added to the list. While I know you don't have the power to do this, MAKE IT HAPPEN ANYWAY   

Simon Archibald


----------



## westaussie (Nov 3, 2004)

No worries Simon,

V pilbarensis is a natural addition and one I have already suggested.


----------



## hugsta (Nov 3, 2004)

Are you guys able to post a list of what species you are allowed to collect. I would be interested in knowing what CALM let you get from the wild and will also let ppl know what animals will eventually be up for sale.

By the way I found this a to be quite an interesting debate and certainly learnt a couple of things.

Thanks
Daz


----------



## womas4me (Nov 4, 2004)

The list is available on CALM's website. It can be looked up there.

www.calm.wa.gov.au/plants_animals/reptiles/index.html


----------



## hugsta (Nov 4, 2004)

Thanks.


----------

