# Cabinet conversion



## Shannon Young (Feb 17, 2019)

I'm working on converting a solid wood cabinet to separately house 3 BPs with bioactive setups. It will be lined with vinyl to prevent wood rot. I've never done set up like this before and wanted some opinions. Because it's pretty solid I am concerned about airflow and ventilation so my idea is having a vent up high in each enclosure on the left close to the radiant heat panel. Also on the right/cool side lower in the set up additional ventilation (pegboard on snek side) 2 questions: 1 Will the isopod guys try to get out of the lower vents? Is there a minimum distance the vent should be up off their floor? 2 would it be beneficial or not to have a really small fan, like PC cooler type fan on the cool side like an exhaust controlled by a thermometer or am I over thinking that?


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## Imported_tuatara (Feb 17, 2019)

BP?


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## Shannon Young (Feb 17, 2019)

Ball pythons
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Imported_tuatara said:


> BP?


Ball pythons


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## Herpetology (Feb 17, 2019)

Shannon Young said:


> Ball pythons
> [doublepost=1550341268,1550339924][/doublepost]
> Ball pythons


Ball pythons are illegal in Australia and should be given to the correct authorites.


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## Shannon Young (Feb 17, 2019)

I


Herptology said:


> Ball pythons are illegal in Australia and should be given to the correct authorites.


I'm not in Australia, you guys seemed very knowledgeable of diy building so that's why I joined. Sorry for the confusion


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2019)

Shannon Young said:


> I've never done set up like this before and wanted some opinions.



You will regret it or at least not think it was worth doing except for the learning experience, and never attempt a project like this again.


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## Shannon Young (Feb 17, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> You will regret it or at least not think it was worth doing except for the learning experience, and never attempt a project like this again.


Luckily I LOVE learning, I'm crafty, LOVE making things, and very headstrong and determined when I pick a project. So that helps


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2019)

Shannon Young said:


> Luckily I LOVE learning, I'm crafty, LOVE making things, and very headstrong and determined when I pick a project. So that helps



Well, you're going to learn that this is a bad idea. I hope you learn that it was a bad idea before your Balls suffer for it


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## Shannon Young (Feb 17, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> Well, you're going to learn that this is a bad idea. I hope you learn that it was a bad idea before your Balls suffer for it


Sooooo does anyone have any beneficial input? Or something a bit more specific. Maybe less opinion and more design improvement ideas? When I said I've never done a set up like this before doesn't mean I have no experience building. And my ideas are simply still ideas and open to change. If there is some issue that is soliciting solely negative, unuseful opinions then let me know. I'll be on my way. Otherwise help me design a better habitat for them.


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2019)

Shannon Young said:


> Sooooo does anyone have any beneficial input? Or something a bit more specific. Maybe less opinion and more design improvement ideas? When I said I've never done a set up like this before doesn't mean I have no experience building. And my ideas are simply still ideas and open to change. If there is some issue that is soliciting solely negative, unuseful opinions then let me know. I'll be on my way. Otherwise help me design a better habitat for them.



You specifically asked for opinions, and if you're about to make a mistake and someone says it would be a mistake, it's helpful.

If you want a better habitat for them, keep it clean and definitely don't try to breed crustaceans and other invertebrates in a wooden enclosure with a Ball Python. Lining with vinyl is a recipe for disaster (especially if you want to be breeding crustaceans in there!). If you must use a wooden cabinet, seal it properly, ventilate it however you like, and treat it like any other normal enclosure. You know, because people all over the planet generally keep their pythons in enclosures without incorporating invertebrate farms in there. It's just a recipe for problems. There's a reason virtually everyone cleans their snake waste out of the enclosure and throws it away rather than leaving it to literally rot while whatever invertebrates proliferate in it causing stench, respiratory issues and skin rot.

If you want to set yourself up for failure and you have a problem being told that when you ask for feedback, at least say "I don't want spoiler alerts, just tell me I'm awesome". The reality is, a vinyl-lined wooden enclosure that small with conditions which will allow crustaceans to proliferate is going to result in something which constitutes animal abuse. You can either accept that now or go through with it and accept it when the reality hits you.

This seems to bother you, I won't comment further, best of luck.


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## Shannon Young (Feb 17, 2019)

Ok see now we are getting somewhere. I'll admit I do not know much of anything about the isopod crustacean situation. I do not at all have a problem with information and being wrong. Again I love to learn. The cause of my frustration was simply this is a bad idea. What is "this" and why is it a bad idea? The idea of them having their own little kind of ecosystem seemed interesting, and the live plants seemed pretty awesome because hey who doesn't like real plants and oxygen? But if it is ultimately bad for them then the bugs are off the list. Change of plans. No big deal. "This" is not helpful but your explanation of everything else is very informative and I appreciate you for it. So thank you


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## Bl69aze (Feb 17, 2019)

I think in general a "bioactive enclosure" is a bad idea, let alone 3, let alone stacked on top of each other if you are not 150% sure what you are doing, you can, however, get nice looking ( IMO) fake plants and plenty of branches, leaf litter etc. But a bioactive enclosure would require a water sprinkling source, which again, doesn't work well with wood. ANd then u have the bugs you have to keep on top of and keep them in the enclosure.


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## nuttylizardguy (Feb 17, 2019)

Bl69aze said:


> I think in general a "bioactive enclosure" is a bad idea, let alone 3, let alone stacked on top of each other if you are not 150% sure what you are doing, you can, however, get nice looking ( IMO) fake plants and plenty of branches, leaf litter etc. But a bioactive enclosure would require a water sprinkling source, which again, doesn't work well with wood. ANd then u have the bugs you have to keep on top of and keep them in the enclosure.



I agree , bioactive substrates are very hard to get right , and even harder to maintain in most instances , and will be more effort and bother than it's worth IMO.

My work of anoles, dart frogs, water dragons, Indonesian bluetongues and some smaller skinks, but for others , forget about it.
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Shannon Young said:


> Ok see now we are getting somewhere. I'll admit I do not know much of anything about the isopod crustacean situation. I do not at all have a problem with information and being wrong. Again I love to learn. The cause of my frustration was simply this is a bad idea. What is "this" and why is it a bad idea? The idea of them having their own little kind of ecosystem seemed interesting, and the live plants seemed pretty awesome because hey who doesn't like real plants and oxygen? But if it is ultimately bad for them then the bugs are off the list. Change of plans. No big deal. "This" is not helpful but your explanation of everything else is very informative and I appreciate you for it. So thank you


 All the more to not do as a bioactive setup.


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## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2019)

If you really must go for a 'bioactive' enclosure, first you should really understand what you're doing (I'm a qualified biologist, I specialised in ecology, even I would find it a somewhat challenging task, and certainly it would be a lot of work to set up and you'd need to closely monitor it). And secondly, choose an appropriate species. You'll generally do best with something which lives in a swampy/jungle/riparian environment. These things are going to cope best with the moisture. Ball Pythons are extremely tough things and might be able to cope, but only because they're tough enough to possibly be able to survive in the wrong conditions, as opposed to something which likes those conditions.

The concept is really cool, but it's not easy or practical, and generally not at all safe.

In nature, there is a deep ground full of dirt full of worms, beetle larvae, etc etc. The rain washes the nutrients into the soil and/or into waterways. Beetle larvae, worms etc eat the waste and take it underground. Flying insects eat it and fly away. Insectivorous animals eat these invertebrates and distribute the nutrients to completely different parts of the ecosystem. You just can't replicate that huge, complex environment in a little box with a couple of cm of dirt on the bottom. Attempting to generally turns out very much like forcing a snake to live in a toilet which you don't bother to flush.

Maybe start out with a moisture-loving species (probably not a snake as most 'wet' snakes are fairly sensitive, unless you want to go for an actual aquatic snake, some of which are much easier) and while sticking to keeping it clean, have a go at growing live plants in there. You'll still probably quickly give up because it's really difficult to make it work, but it's safer and easier.


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## Bl69aze (Feb 17, 2019)

t should be a general idea of space required and the amount of time needed for a bioactive enclosure - I know he is a bit of a dodgy man, but u can't argue with his enclosure setups, truly remarkable, at least I think so.


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## Imported_tuatara (Feb 17, 2019)

Bl69aze said:


> I have marked the time (u just need to click the link) of what should be a general idea of space required and the amount of time needed for a bio active - I know he is a bit of a dodgy man, but u can't argue with his enclosure setups, truly remarkable, at least I think so.



there's no link, only the vid where it starts at 0:00. (atleast on computer, anyways.)


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## Bl69aze (Feb 17, 2019)

ah.. well it's like a minute in, at his coffee table
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Imported_tuatara said:


> there's no link, only the vid where it starts at 0:00. (atleast on computer, anyways.)


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## Shannon Young (Feb 18, 2019)

Bugs and Bioactive are out. Seems cool on the surface but way too much room for error. with that let's change the focus a little. Does anyone have any experience with non toxic sealants? Safe for snakes? Or methods of sealing without using chemicals at all? For example there is a method where you torch the wood and it seals it and makes it for the most part water proof. I've seen this used in offgrid building to make wood exterior grade but then there is the concern of the char left behind affecting the snakes, so probably bad idea. So maybe the vinyl type flooring? I know somethings I maybe over thinking some things and under thinking others which is why I'm not in a hurry just to throw it together. This cabinet has sentimental value and would LOVE to make it a beautiful, functional, display and happy home for my Balls. Thank you in advance for your input. Also should have noted that the wood inner bit of the doors will be replaced with a plexiglass with the original wood frame of the doors. Also mounting the radiant heat panels to their ceilings as opposed to the side.
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Imported_tuatara said:


> there's no link, only the vid where it starts at 0:00. (atleast on computer, anyways.)


WOW his stuff is amazing! If my husband didn't hate snakes and pretty much all reptiles I'd love to do enclosures like his! My daughters and I out number him so we compromised over the years on three Balls and a Western Hognose Rescued by friend that works for parks and wildlife here


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## Steve64 (Feb 18, 2019)

Shannon Young said:


> Does anyone have any experience with non toxic sealants?


You could research 'Epoxy Resin'. My experience with it is in wooden boat building, forms a clear, totally waterproof membrane. They construct and waterproof compartments in boats used for drinking water storage so it is food safe. Just note - it's not uv stable.


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## Shannon Young (Feb 18, 2019)

Steve64 said:


> You could research 'Epoxy Resin'. My experience with it is in wooden boat building, forms a clear, totally waterproof membrane. They construct and waterproof compartments in boats used for drinking water storage so it is food safe. Just note - it's not uv stable.


I had thought about that, and I have experience with it making a bunch of Glitter tumblers. I also did my phone case and over time a bunch of little kinda micro fractures have developed. Do you think it would do that on the wood as it expands and retracts with the seasons? I will search for a tougher epoxy.


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## Sdaji (Feb 18, 2019)

If this cabinet has sentimental value to you, keep in mind that reptile enclosures have a finite lifespan, and you're probably going to end up throwing it away a lot sooner if you turn it into a snake cage, unless you really go nuts making it waterproof etc (very generous on the sealant). Your vinyl is a guaranteed way to destroy it nice and quickly.

You seem determined to avoid doing anything quick, easy, cheap and practical and using overthinking to find ways to make life difficult and dysfunctional. If you want to use this cabinet as a snake unit and not destroy it, just deck it out with the extra panels required, seal it with several coats of sealant (be very generous with the sealant or your cabinet will get soaked and rot - water or worse still urine/faeces is a great option for destroying wooden furniture) and add your desired electrical fittings.


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## Ella C (Feb 18, 2019)

I've found bio-active enclosures to be fantastic, I've made a couple and had great success. However, they were jungle species - frogs. I'm not sure about snakes, though. 
However, I fail to see how isopods could negatively affect the snakes? May somebody please explain? Thanks!


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## Sdaji (Feb 18, 2019)

Ella C said:


> I've found bio-active enclosures to be fantastic, I've made a couple and had great success. However, they were jungle species - frogs. I'm not sure about snakes, though.
> However, I fail to see how isopods could negatively affect the snakes? May somebody please explain? Thanks!



How many months ago did you make them? Come back in a few years and tell us how they're going  It does work much better for frogs than snakes though.

If you're lucky the isopods may not directly bother the snakes any more than hassling them by crawling around, but if you're keeping a vivarium with ideal conditions for a Ball Python, isopods will not survive. If you're keeping conditions nice for isopods, you're being mean to your Ball Python. Frogs like it more humid so their ideal conditions are more similar to the conditions these crustaceans like.


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## Ella C (Feb 18, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> How many months ago did you make them? Come back in a few years and tell us how they're going  It does work much better for frogs than snakes though.
> 
> If you're lucky the isopods may not directly bother the snakes any more than hassling them by crawling around, but if you're keeping a vivarium with ideal conditions for a Ball Python, isopods will not survive. If you're keeping conditions nice for isopods, you're being mean to your Ball Python. Frogs like it more humid so their ideal conditions are more similar to the conditions these crustaceans like.


2 years. They're doing great. Anyway.. thanks.


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## Sdaji (Feb 18, 2019)

Ella C said:


> 2 years. They're doing great. Anyway.. thanks.



Hey, well done on keeping them going for 2 years  That's a lot longer than the majority of people get before they have to make major changes and acknowledge significant maintenance and reworking is required  Please post pictures, I'd love to see them and I'm sure others would too


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## Ella C (Feb 18, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> Hey, well done on keeping them going for 2 years  That's a lot longer than the majority of people get before they have to make major changes and acknowledge significant maintenance and reworking is required  Please post pictures, I'd love to see them and I'm sure others would too


Sure thing! Here's my most recent photo of my 45x45x60cm vertical build. It has a spray foam background (first one I've ever made, currently editing my 90x45x60cm build to incorporate another one. Will post thread when done) and multiple plants. Its drainage layer is made of gravel with a bio-active soil mix of coco fibre, sphagnum moss and isopods/springtails. Houses two juvenile GTF.


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## Sdaji (Feb 18, 2019)

Ella C said:


> Sure thing! Here's my most recent photo of my 45x45x60cm vertical build. It has a spray foam background (first one I've ever made, currently editing my 90x45x60cm build to incorporate another one. Will post thread when done) and multiple plants. Its drainage layer is made of gravel with a bio-active soil mix of coco fibre, sphagnum moss and isopods/springtails. Houses two juvenile GTF.
> View attachment 326613



Looks fantastic! Comical to claim that it's zero maintenance, that's going to be many, many, many times more work and expense than what I'd use, but it's certainly far, far more beautiful. It'll also become more of a hassle to maintain when your frogs are adults, and these setups basically need to be kept very low density (or extremely headache-inducing to maintain). Basically, they're high maintenance terraria which happen to have a couple of critters living in them. Super cool setup though!


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