# Hypo Blackheaded pythons



## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

As with Morelia species, i've recently seen a few "hypo" BHPs getting around. It'd be interesting to hear peoples ideas on what is a hypo BHP in their eye's.....

Obviously Hypo means lacking but at what point does a standard 'light' coloured BHP enter into a hypo league....?

Below are 2 pics, one I deem as a hypo, the other is just a light coloured Blackheaded. Although both animals were bred by ourselves from the same line, only one stands out to me as a true hypo......Genetics aside, i'm asking this question from a visual standpoint.


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## MrSpike (Apr 20, 2008)

They are beautiful animals Den, and I'm not trying to knock them but how can a BHP be classified as hypo if it still has a blackhead? Just a thought that arose..

Kane


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## andyscott (Apr 20, 2008)

Outstanding BHPs Den


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## jay76 (Apr 20, 2008)

I think they are hypo. As you said Den, hypo is lacking black. To me both these snakes are lacking black and in my eyes are hypo blackheads. Just my thoughts Great Blackheads


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## Brettix (Apr 20, 2008)

Great snakes Den but i was thinking the same thing,i thought their heads would be an orange colour ?


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## arbok (Apr 20, 2008)

is it just me or does the first one seem to have some faint orange on his head?


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Ta Kane,

The term Hypomelanicstic means lacking in melanin. This is evident even in the head of the above animal. I see your point though, it is a slippery slope hey. That's why i'm curious to hear peoples thoughts on this subject....


Pmed you too mate


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

It's a really difficult question to answer, it is very obvious with some species such as Bredli or Coastals but with BHP's it is way more difficult because the black head itself is a bit of an anomaly, by rights being a hypo indicates that the snake should have a washed out head but they invariably don't. Den as you know having seen that snake in the first photo I reckon it is a hypo no doubt about it and incredibly beautiful with it.


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## Armand (Apr 20, 2008)

yeh that sure does look like a hypo to me.. you can see the lack of black on the head (on the left side of the snake below its jaw and on the head).. its colour is so bright and gorgeuos.. its a real stunner!


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

Actually I have just noticed the black on the head is indeed washed out, has it gone like that as it has grown as I didn't notice that when I saw it. That to me leaves no doubt in my mind that it is a hypo.


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## andyscott (Apr 20, 2008)

Brettix and Airbok,
From what ive seen of Dens BHPs a few of his animals have orange patching on their headeds. I think that is the main line he is trying to breed, Hopefuly in a few years he will have breed a Ginger Headed Python..


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## arbok (Apr 20, 2008)

andyscott said:


> Brettix and Airbok,
> From what ive seen of Dens BHPs a few of his animals have orange patching on their headeds. I think that is the main line he is trying to breed, Hopefuly in a few years he will have breed a Ginger Headed Python..



wow that would be insane...

Den u wouldnt happen to have a pic of any of these orange patched bhps? sounds awsome!


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeah, it's a bit of a head mess hey Ash! Too many things going on with 'morphs' hey. Calicos heads seem to 'wash out', they also change around a time that co-insides with a hormonal change......Thats's a different kettel of fish though.

I'm gettin' side tracked. Yeah, the term hypo in BHPs would affect the head in some way as both yourself and Kane pointed out hey. Tricky tricky......


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## andyscott (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi Arbok,
Check out one of Dens past threads titled Golden line Black Headed Pythons. You will be impressed, they are Awsome animals.


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## hazzard (Apr 20, 2008)

andyscott said:


> Brettix and Airbok,
> From what ive seen of Dens BHPs a few of his animals have orange patching on their headeds. I think that is the main line he is trying to breed, Hopefuly in a few years he will have breed a Ginger Headed Python..



And I know people trying to breed womas with black heads, so whats the point. And no Andy i'm not having a go at you, but the reason i like a BHP is because it has a jet black head. I'm not even fussed by the ochre type with an orange chin. Each to their own i guess.

Den they are fantastic looking bhp's. I only consider the first a hypo but using the lack of melanin context they both fit the bill! 

Keep up the good work!


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

A cutout done by Brett of one of our BHP's....The body of this snake isn't hypo though, it hatched as a normal, golden animal.....

All's heaps confusing....


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

I think the major problem is we use this term HYPO to describe an animal with reduced black, not lacking black but just reduced by doing this we open a huge can of worms because then everyone has a different opinion of what constitutes a true hypo. Theoretically anything with less black than we accept as 'normal' is a hypo but then some say it must have no black which isn't of course the case at all. 
I have a pair of hypo Bredli, both obviously hypo but one has NO black at all, the black it should have is replaced with dark brown. It's mate has much reduced black and in it's own right is a very nice hypo until it is side by side with the other one. 
An albino is obvious as is a leucistic but a hypo is very much open to interpretation by the individual I'm afraid.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

hazzard said:


> And I know people trying to breed womas with black heads, so whats the point. And no Andy i'm not having a go at you, but the reason i like a BHP is because it has a jet black head. I'm not even fussed by the ochre type with an orange chin. Each to their own i guess.
> 
> Den they are fantastic looking bhp's. I only consider the first a hypo but using the lack of melanin context they both fit the bill!
> 
> Keep up the good work!



Ta mate, 
I aggree, The jet, glossy black does it for me too but if you've got a new line on the go, why not work with it....

Before this thread takes a hybrid spin, all of our animals showing the 'Golden' trait are locale specific. The animals that will be paired this season are only 3rd generation captive bred......


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Very true B, what's hypo to one isn't always a hypo in another's eye's!


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## andyscott (Apr 20, 2008)

> And I know people trying to breed womas with black heads, so whats the point. And no Andy i'm not having a go at you, but the reason i like a BHP is because it has a jet black head. I'm not even fussed by the ochre type with an orange chin. Each to their own i guess.


No drama Hazzard, every one has their own view on things. Im also a big fan of a BHP with a big glossy black head but I also like the Orange chined BHP. As for the dark head Womas I dont like them.


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## mrmikk (Apr 20, 2008)

HI Den, Once again, great lookign BHPs you produce. 

As you said Hypo-melanistic means low melanin, or less-black. So, taking tht meaning you need to have a benchmark, and that would be your standard BHP, so a Hypo-melanisitc BHP would have 'less black' than your standard BHP. Is there a certain amount of 'less' black? Who knows? Gets confusing. But on that basis and even withou a 'how much less black' defines a hype-melanistic, I would definitely say your BHP in pic 1 is a Hypo.


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## MrBredli (Apr 20, 2008)

Beautiful snakes Den! Have you got any axanthics in your collection yet? Crossing the two would eventually produce Ghost BHP's, yet another new morph for the aussie market.


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## Splitmore (Apr 20, 2008)

to be able to refer to a snake as 'hyop melanistic' or any other genetic term then really you would have to prove the trait as genetic before marketing or labeling the animals as such. With respect to Den, there seems to be a pre occupation with labeling anything with a slightly different appearence as some new 'morph'. Natural variation occours within any species, and while they are two very pretty animals they are just plain and simple black headed pythons.


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## Martk (Apr 20, 2008)

I can see the beauty in hypo blackheads and the excitement in developing such a line, but really why would we want to change their head colour, they are blackheads after all and this is their most distinctive feature


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## Martk (Apr 20, 2008)

Sorry someone else has already said this, just read the rest of the thread, lovely animals all the same, keep blackheads as that, blackheads


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Splitmore said:


> to be able to refer to a snake as 'hyop melanistic' or any other genetic term then really you would have to prove the trait as genetic before marketing or labeling the animals as such. With respect to Den, there seems to be a pre occupation with labeling anything with a slightly different appearence as some new 'morph'. Natural variation occours within any species, and while they are two very pretty animals they are just plain and simple black headed pythons.




Genetics are a tricky thing hey, that's why I asked for opinions from a visual standpoint. I'm by no means an expert in the genetics feild and am against the term hypomelanistic being
'over marketed' (is that a word??). From a breeding stand point, we have produced 4 animals that I would class as hypo from the same, select pairing....

How is it proven from a genetic angle?


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

The way I look at is if you want a BHP with a black head then buy one, when you see these snakes in the flesh you will understand


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Ta B.

above quote... 
I aggree, The jet, glossy black does it for me too but if you've got a new line on the go, why not work with it....


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## Splitmore (Apr 20, 2008)

Den said:


> How is it proven from a genetic angle?



basically to breed the animal in question, produce 'hets' and then breed them together or to the founder animal to see if the trait appears in the subsequent generations.


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## hazzard (Apr 20, 2008)

It's tricky, but firstly you need to identify the mode of inheritance of the trait and predict the ratios of offspring using punnet squares, there are plenty of websites that help explain this. Here is but 1 http://double-d-reptiles.tripod.com/genetics.html

With one trait it's easy but with 3 or 4 it can become confusing.


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

If the trait is codominant they you negate the need to produce hets.


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## liasis (Apr 20, 2008)

beatiful bhps den and what i say next has nothing to do with you but i have seen alot of people advertiseing hypos for sale on various herps site but when you see the photo it is just a standard colour phase i think it is going to be up to the person thats going to purchase the animal as a hypo or not so if they want to pay more for something that isnt hypo thats their choice


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## hazzard (Apr 20, 2008)

Just to confuse you some more http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_codom.html


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## andyscott (Apr 20, 2008)

All BHPs are stunning IMO, If you have animals a little different that is great. I like the idea of having a large diversity with the breed.[SIZE=+0] I have a BHP completely opposite to the ones on this thread, it is almost completely black (very little pattern) Then I have a few identical to the one in Dens 1st pic, even a Axanthic.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]If Den breeds something at little different I applaud him, and put my hand up for a hatchling.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] Diversity in the breed, I say embrace it. [/SIZE]


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Some people tend to try and capitalize on the 'morph' angle. That's why this thread was started. To get people's views on this tricky subject......


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## MrSpike (Apr 20, 2008)

hazzard said:


> but the reason i like a BHP is because it has a jet black head. I'm not even fussed by the ochre type with an orange chin. Each to their own i guess.



As much as I love your original BHP with the jet black head, I do love the ochres, "hypo's" and any other morphs that my pop-up. I will admit that I am a big fan of snake morphs and anything that is a bit different to the usual or something that could be leading into a new designer morph. I am excited for the day when a specific species may have many many morphs, like the Ball pythons in the US do...

As I said before Den beautiful snakes, and I can't wait to see where this all leads.. hopefully to something big.

Bring on the designer morphs..

Kane


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Splitmore said:


> basically to breed the animal in question, produce 'hets' and then breed them together or to the founder animal to see if the trait appears in the subsequent generations.



So Hypomelanism is a recesive trait?? Some people pair hypo Bredls with normals and clearly get a percentage out that are hypo? 

I knew that i'd get sucked in to this genetic debate.......!


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## hazzard (Apr 20, 2008)

Den said:


> So Hypomelanism is a recesive trait?? Some people pair hypo Bredls with normals and clearly get a percentage out that are hypo?
> 
> I knew that i'd get sucked in to this genetic debate.......!



like i said before you have to determine it's mode of inheritance, and your right i'm not covinced hypomelanism is a recessive trait!


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

In Bredli at least it appears to be a codominant trait and that seems to apply to hypo coastals as well so I would assume BHP's would be the same.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Ta Kane, the coming years will be interesting.....


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

So, H and B. The 'het' thing has no relevance here?


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

In my opinion no they have no relevance at all. I would be extremely surprised if it was recessive.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Ok peoples......Calico genetics?........and go





Ash and I have had many a chat about thses animals. Still trying to keep up with him but lets see what other ideas are out there regarding this change.....


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## MrBredli (Apr 20, 2008)

Paul Harris has proven his hypo line of BHP's to be recessive, so i wouldn't rule it out just yet.


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

You just had to bring that one up didn't you


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Mr B, do you have any pics mate? I would love to see some other animals that are true HYPO BHPs (from a visual standpoint once again)......

Neil has some nice animals, also hypo. Haven't seen many others though...


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

MrBredli, I obviously wouldn't dismiss it entirely but would be very surprised.


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## Australis (Apr 20, 2008)

boa said:


> In my opinion no they have no relevance at all. I would be extremely surprised if it was recessive.




Like MrBredli mentions.



> *History*
> During the mid to late nineties I acquired several different bloodlines of Black-Headed Python, I was very keen to breed this species as I had always been fascinated by them. The first year that I had success was in 2000 from a pair of 18 month old snakes, I hatched some very beautiful but seemingly normal babies from that pairing. In 2001 I hatched a pair of Hypomelanistic appearing babies from normal adults, *I have since proven this line to be simple recessive.* Not only do the babies lack black on their bodies but their heads are reduced in black also. It is worth mentioning though that a patch of brown on the throat or chin area alone is not an indication of hypomelanism, I have seen this on many normal babies. Obviously I am keen to try to breed a Ghost from the Hypomelanistic x Axanthic combination. The following year I was astounded to hatch 3 Axanthic babies from a different pair of adults, this was also proven simple recessive in 2005 when I bred an Axanthic male to his normal appearing sister. Axanthics are white, silvery grey and black in colouration and fairly small as adults, although not to be confused with "Black and Whites" from Western Australia which are cream with dark brown or black banding. In 2007 I hatched a clutch from breeding an Axanthic to a Hypo for the first time, these double hets are the cornerstone of my Ghost project.



http://www.ukpythons.com/collectiondt.asp?ID=17


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## MrBredli (Apr 20, 2008)

Pics can be seen by following the link provided by Australis.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Ta Aust,

Tricky thing hey, I class the adult animal in that link as similar to our Golds and different from hypos we've produced and others in the care of respected keepers.....Are these hypos in some peoples view??

Bloody confusing. Alot is based on the individuals perception hey.


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes I know about Paul Harris's hypos. It is interesting that they appear to not follow 'usual' hypo genetics although having said that I'm not sure it hypomelanism follows the rules. 
I'm more than happy to be proved wrong, as I said earlier it is my opinion it is codominant.
Tricky doesn't adequately describe it to be honest Den.


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## cement (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi Den, all very nice animals, i am definatly no genetics whiz but my understanding is that of mentioned earlier, if hypo was bred to normal and they were all hatched normal looking then breed with the hypo parent and you got 50%hypo then it is a definite genetic trait. So in that case you could label and sell as genuine.
Personally they look at their best with jet black heads and the hypo body in my opinion. 
Reduce the melanin in the body but not the head, and retain it right through adult life, is that too much to ask!


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

Ta c.

Yeah, full gloss head, orange body......Trick!


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

My head hurts.......!

Gold, Hypos ochre's, different names for the same animals.......


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeah sounds pretty easy to me Den, then produce some ghosts and maybe some paradox ghosts :lol:


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 20, 2008)

How many do you want? Give me a few different coloured markers and 20mins....

:lol:


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2008)

Just make it a nice even 5.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 21, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Beautiful snakes Den! Have you got any axanthics in your collection yet? Crossing the two would eventually produce Ghost BHP's, yet another new morph for the aussie market.



We have a pair of 'het' axanthic bhps, may purchase some axanthics this season.....


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## zulu (Apr 21, 2008)

*re Hypo*



Den said:


> My head hurts.......!
> 
> Gold, Hypos ochre's, different names for the same animals.......



All the different names are confusing,when i heard about gold BHPs i thought they was all gold coloured,heres a few pics of some NTs,the light coloured one has the white ventrals,has plenty of black in bands,head and ventral markings,no yellow at all,some red and it has a bit of grey on the scalation now its getting older.The female has a sought of blackish head but you can see brown through it,changes colour to light in winter,losing spots of pigmentation over its body may have just been the particular slough last time,did a[ppear to all come off well though.Dont know whether they are hypo or not,i just like bhps that have good colour as adults,thats what i look for,some of the adults you see around are woeful drab looking things.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 21, 2008)

The pale blotches are how some calico's start out. Some go on to loose more pigment as they shed, some don't....

These pics are of the same female in different stages of change. They are quite ugly in the mid stages of change. A kind of pretty ugly though....


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 21, 2008)

Anything different IMO, is good, bring it on, although I am a fan of the jet black gloosy head and light coloured body.
Mate you have some lovely animals keep it up....
My favourite BHP is the Axanthic, hopefully getting a pair next year (everything crossed), that's my next morph purchase....fell in love with them the first time I saw one!


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## jeda (Apr 21, 2008)

bukendaa poonana moocow look at the green medow it looks like buterscoth hokoodookda samhain for ever yall I>


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## jeda (Apr 21, 2008)

sorry . kids playing, 1more week of holiday left , might survive


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 21, 2008)

For sure SM, axanthic are definately up there for us too! 

I'm with you mate, I love both classic and 'different' animals!


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## thals (Apr 21, 2008)

MrSpike said:


> They are beautiful animals Den, and I'm not trying to knock them but how can a BHP be classified as hypo if it still has a blackhead? Just a thought that arose..
> 
> Kane



My thoughts exactly! lol


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## DerekRoddy (Apr 21, 2008)

Hey Den,
Check out this crazy girl I acquired a couple of weeks ago.









She has white blotches all under her neck and chin. 
Very strange color.
when she was younger...she was a seemingly normal BHP.

This male is also a nice "red" animal.




He also has blushing under his neck and chin.

As far as I know....Harris' animals are the only ones that carry this "hypo" trait.... in form of a recessive.
I think a lot of this type of "look" comes from visual traits and not actual genetic traits.
Who knows really.
But, Paul has been the only one I know of with any "predictable" results.

Slammin BHP's BTW everyone.
Cheers.
D.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 22, 2008)

Hot as D.

Mate do you have any connection with Split Rpck? Mates?

On another subject, when are you coming to stay?


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 22, 2008)

D, Has Harris bred his hypos for a few generations? Did he produce a Hypo then pair it with a normal, paired the offspring together and produced hypo's, hets and poss. hets? That'd be a 5-6yr project in itself unless he produced a hypo and paired it with the assumed het father to produce a half hypo clutch? It's a long project perfecting or proving a genetic trait. 

Wanted to ask you mate, seeing as you live in the states you may have some inside info.....

The whole recessive or co-dominant thing is confusing as far as Hypos go. Would love to speak to Paul and ask him how many years and pairing it took to prove this trait. May quicken the process over our way.....

All of the "hypos" we've produced were the result of pairing a first generation captive male with a Mt Isa locale captive bred female. To date, 4 of these animals have been produced out of this pairing.

Oh yeah, when you come you'll have to teach me to pick a few strings......


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## zulu (Apr 22, 2008)

*Hypo*

Check out this crazy girl I acquired a couple of weeks ago.

What actually is it ,similar to my male,they seem to lack yellow and have the white patches underneath,been told that they are hypo but seems to be something different,what do you think Den


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## Den from Den Pythons (Apr 22, 2008)

Looks very similar to some Dajarra animals yet far lighter. VERY hot snake!

When Derek pairs his trick animals I reckon large usa breeders and keepers will be knocking down his door trying to puchase some for themselves......


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## DerekRoddy (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks for the comment guys. 
I was lucky to get her. She old (15) but... a "tough ole' bird".

I can't quite capture her colors. 
Her bands are this bronze/gold color with almost a purplish white ground color.
She is small for her age ( about 5 1/2 to 6 feet) and has western head scalation.

I hope that I can get her to go next year. I have a trick male western to put over her.

We'll see. 
I never hold my breath when dealing with BHP's.

I think Harris has bred them down the Hypo's a few generations now Den.
I'm not certain on the number but I know at least 1.

As far as I know the splitrock animals don't carry the trait the same way. 
I'm not real sure of all the breedings Jim has done. 
I need to call him anyway. 
I'll try to find out some info for you guys.

Den...I'd love to get there more often. 
I'm planning a trip next year. I'll be coming over to perform some drum clinics.
I'm definitely going to schedule some time off to hang with you BHP freaks.

Thanks again for the comments...if I find out any info...I'll let you know.
Cheers.
D.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 22, 2008)

How long had you been breeding before you got the ginger in there heads?
and can you imbreed snakes or would that become a snake with 2 heads or somehting disasterouis?


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## Ranch Hand (Apr 22, 2008)

Very interesting post and great looking BHP's


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## Retic (Apr 22, 2008)

Derek, those are 2 beautiful animals especially that first one.


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## cement (Apr 22, 2008)

DerekRoddy said:


> She is small for her age ( about 5 1/2 to 6 feet) and has western head scalation.
> 
> Can someone explain the difference in scalation on the bhp heads please.
> Is it in the size, number or layout?
> cheers


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## DerekRoddy (Apr 22, 2008)

Yes, 
westerns have no suboculars and only one loreal scale.... along with a large pair of parietals... as opposed to 2 or 4 pair.
This holds true for pilbara animals but... don't know about the rest of the western BHP's.
Cheers.
D.


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## cement (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks mate, very interesting as I have pilbarra.


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## fishead (Apr 23, 2008)

Hey guys, very nice bhps!!!! My view on the hypo thing is that it's likely not one specific mutation across the board. 
We of course put the label "hypo" in front of anything that fits the definition of the word. Nothing wrong with that at all. But in for example bredli and coastals is it a mutation or just a natural trait or variation that can be passed on and enhanced with line breeding?
This year I paired a hypo bredli male and a couple of hypo females and did not get 100% offspring. They varied from totally normal looking through the full range to full on hypo. If it was a recessive or codominant trait I should have got 100% hypo? I'm not right up to speed on the codominant side of things, might be wrong there. 
So a normal variation enhanced through line breeding more likely? 
Either way if the animal fits the description then all is good I reckon.


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