# ID please :)



## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

Hi all so this little guy is being sold on gumtree as a high yellow diamond, but he looks exactly like my bubba that was sold to me as a coastal can someone please ID these for me, will post mine in a separate post thanks


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

And here's my bubba


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## Shotta (Jun 17, 2013)

definately not a coastal carpet i'd say diamond or intergrade it may have some coastal influence


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## RedFox (Jun 17, 2013)

Yep that's a diamond. Did you want to put pics up of yours and the age?


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

RedFox said:


> Yep that's a diamond. Did you want to put pics up of yours and the age?



Mine's in the red tub, just a year old and he just shed today so looking yellow-er today then in that pic


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## Skeptic (Jun 17, 2013)

The one for sale is a Diamond, possibly an intergrade. 

You own a lovely looking intergrade


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## RedFox (Jun 17, 2013)

Sorry I posted before I realised you had put up the pic. I would say yours is a coastal x diamond. It does appear to have some diamond colouring and markings.

It could also be an intergrade. Either way it is a looker and it will be interesting watching it colour up.


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## Venomous_RBB (Jun 17, 2013)

Agreed with Skeptic +1


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

Here's a closer pic of his markings but its a few months old 







Cool thanks guys, so if mine's a coastal x diamond would you say better or worse than just coastal? Want to know if I got ripped off or a great deal haha, either way I love him


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## Wiganov (Jun 17, 2013)

Yours looks like an intergrade - and a nice one, too. Bit of a bummer if you had your heart set on a coastal, but apart from that, you've got yourself a lovely snake. And you now have a great excuse to get a coastal, as well.


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## Venomous_RBB (Jun 17, 2013)

harlemrain said:


> Here's a closer pic of his markings but its a few months old
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Depends on how you look at it. Personally I wont touch cross breed animals.
However natural intergrades are about the same price as coastal's and Diamond's, just not as sought after I think. Just my personal experience.

If your one is a natural intergrade, I wouldn't worry to much, also you have a stunning looking snake, another plus.


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

Venomous_RBB said:


> Depends on how you look at it. Personally I wont touch cross breed animals.
> However natural intergrades are about the same price as coastal's and Diamond's, just not as sought after I think. Just my personal experience.
> 
> If your one is a natural intergrade, I wouldn't worry to much, also you have a stunning looking snake, another plus.



Thanks  he is beautiful (even if I do say so myself) only $150, the guy I bought him off had his male & female coastals housed together  but also had a male diamond (maybe they did the naughty when his back was turned  ) so it could go either way.

I won't be breeding anytime soon and when I do I'll be more careful with what I purchase, but for a first snake couldn't have asked for better!


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## Venomous_RBB (Jun 17, 2013)

I am guessing they have, so he would be classed as Coastal x Diamond so in that instance he is a crossbred, a very cute one at that, lol.


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## Norm (Jun 17, 2013)

This can be a confusing subject, what did the parent coastals look like? We're they similar to your snake or different? 
Your snake would get called either a diamond, intergrade, cross or coastal depending on personal opinion. For me it shows too much diamond influence to be coastal, I would say natural intergrade or diamond x carpet of unknown locality.


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## Norm (Jun 17, 2013)

If you can coax them out, there's some guys on here that really know their stuff when it comes to intergrades. They would be able to add some very valuable input.


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

Norm said:


> This can be a confusing subject, what did the parent coastals look like? We're they similar to your snake or different?
> Your snake would get called either a diamond, intergrade, cross or coastal depending on personal opinion. For me it shows too much diamond influence to be coastal, I would say natural intergrade or diamond x carpet of unknown locality.



Did a quick google images search and this is the closest I could find as to what his mum/dad looked like. Other than that the only further info I have is that his grandmother on his mums side was 12ft long :O






I could ask him I think I still have his phone number somewhere but he never mentioned that he was intergrade or anything like that just sold as a coastal but every time I upload a pic on here people say he must be intergrade lol. So confused :/


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## ronhalling (Jun 17, 2013)

Hey Harls, Seeing you live in Kempsey i don't suppose the guy you got your coastal from has the first name of "Andrew" if it was that is where our big Coastal girl came from, he maintains she is pure Port Mac Coastal even though she appears sometimes to be an "Intergrade" following is for comparison, 1st pic your 1 2nd pic mine as you can see both snakes have what appears to be elongated splotches with a cloud above them all the way down their bodies and the boomerang on their heads  ......................Ron


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## Norm (Jun 17, 2013)

Ron, port macs are intergrades. Port Macquarie falls in the intergrade zone.


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> Hey Harls, Seeing you live in Kempsey i don't suppose the guy you got your coastal from has the first name of "Andrew" if it was that is where our big Coastal girl came from, he maintains she is pure Port Mac Coastal even though she appears sometimes to be an "Intergrade" following is for comparison, 1st pic your 1 2nd pic mine  ......................Ron



Yours looks more like his parents than the pic I found, which if he is a port mac coastal explains why I couldn't find one closer on google lol.

I bought him off someone in Coffs, Matt someone I think, really nice guy had his mobile number a year ago and asked him a couple questions as this was before I found this site and I think this was either his 1st or 2nd time breeding.

I don't really mind what Swarly (my bubba, HIMYM fans will get the name lol) is but would be nice to know haha, after looking on Google again, he definitely looks like a Port Macquarie Python to me so everyone was right, he is an intergrade 

Thanks heaps for all the replies lol, glad to finally get to the bottom of it!


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## ronhalling (Jun 17, 2013)

Yeah i know that Norm, but we still have pure Coastals and Pure Diamonds as well as Intergrades, thankfully the pond is not completely muddied  .....................Ron


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## ronhalling (Jun 17, 2013)

harlemrain said:


> Yours looks more like his parents than the pic I found, which if he is a port mac coastal explains why I couldn't find one closer on google lol.
> 
> I bought him off someone in Coffs, Matt someone I think, really nice guy had his mobile number a year ago and asked him a couple questions as this was before I found this site and I think this was either his 1st or 2nd time breeding.
> 
> ...



But Harls as i just said to Norm there is still the pures here as well as the Intergrades, "and" as Andrew the breeder said when we bought Cinaman off him all he breeds are Coastals, everything he has has been line bred for the last 25 years, "BUT" it is always going to be a point of contention when it come down to Coastals that carry the Port Mac name 50% will say pure Port Mac Coastal and 40% will say Intergrade and the other 10% will sit on the fence.  .......................................Ron


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## Ramsayi (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> Yeah i know that Norm, but we still have pure Coastals and Pure Diamonds as well as Intergrades, thankfully the pond is not completely muddied  .....................Ron



You sure you get pure coastals,pure Diamond as well as intergrades around Port Macquarie?


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> But Harls as i just said to Norm there is still the pures here as well as the Intergrades, "and" as Andrew the breeder said when we bought Cinaman off him all he breeds are Coastals, everything he has has been line bred for the last 25 years, "BUT" it is always going to be a point of contention when it come down to Coastals that carry the Port Mac name 50% will say pure Port Mac Coastal and 40% will say Intergrade and the other 10% will sit on the fence.  .......................................Ron



Since I won't be breeding him I don't mind what the "technicalities" of his breed are lol.

I'm just happy that I can look up a species and find him, as when I looked up coastals I couldn't find one that even looked remotely like my boy  intergrade, pure breed whichever you like to call it I think I'll just go with port mac python as he looks a hell of a lot more like those then coastals


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## ronhalling (Jun 17, 2013)

As sure as i can be without DNA analysis  ..............................Ron


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

Another question, I've just checked all my license records, should I worry about getting them changed? There is an option when lodging a new reptile for Morelia Spilota Unknown - Carpet/Diamond Python Sub Species Unknown.

Does anyone know how/if I should get this changed? I usually email them with change of address etc, just the same here?


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## Ramsayi (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> As sure as i can be without DNA analysis  ..............................Ron



Either that or the diamonds and coastals are there on holidays visiting their relos


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## ronhalling (Jun 17, 2013)

I reckon just leave it as is Harls, noone is going to question it, mine is recorded as "Morelia Spilota McDowelli" and until proven otherwise that is how it shall remain, and @ "Ramsayi" i do realise this is the intergrade zone IE where the territory for coastals overlaps the territory for diamonds (for those who don't know) but that does not mean there are no pure diamonds or pure coastals here.  ....................................Ron


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## andynic07 (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> I reckon just leave it as is Harls, noone is going to question it, mine is recorded as "Morelia Spilota McDowelli" and until proven otherwise that is how it shall remain, and @ "Ramsayi" i do realise this is the intergrade zone IE where the territory for coastals overlaps the territory for diamonds (for those who don't know) but that does not mean there are no pure diamonds or pure coastals here.  ....................................Ron


I would think that your statement there would say it all Ron , "intergrade zone where the territory for coastal's overlaps the territory for diamonds". The intergrade zone isn't the area where only intergrades live and that is why there is such debates like whether an intergrade is actually a natural cross between the two sub species or it's own sub species.


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## Ramsayi (Jun 17, 2013)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/faq-intergrade-54862/

Have a read it explains it well.
The only pythons that occur naturally in intergrade zones are intergrades.


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## ronhalling (Jun 17, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I would think that your statement there would say it all Ron , "intergrade zone where the territory for coastal's overlaps the territory for diamonds". The intergrade zone isn't the area where only intergrades live and that is why there is such debates like whether an intergrade is actually a natural cross between the two sub species or it's own sub species.



Thank you Andy for pointing out so eloquently what i was trying to get across, so many people think str8 away when you say intergrade you mean coastal diamond cross, i am sure a learned person such as Ramsayi was not meaning that, but i was not sure if harlemrain realised what was meant by an intergrade. As far as being a sub-species...... well that argument is going to go on for infinitum until some researcher can come up with the coin to go full tilt down to DNA level to either confirm or deny it's existence, until then it is going to be an us V them situation on whether pure, X or intergrade  ...............................Ron


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## Norm (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> Yeah i know that Norm, but we still have pure Coastals and Pure Diamonds as well as Intergrades, thankfully the pond is not completely muddied  .....................Ron



I think what you've got is intergrades that have more features of either a diamond or coastal. I really don't believe that there are pure diamonds and coastals in the port Macquarie area that have never bred with anything other than their own kind. Just my opinion.


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## andynic07 (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> Thank you Andy for pointing out so eloquently what i was trying to get across, so many people think str8 away when you say intergrade you mean coastal diamond cross, i am sure a learned person such as Ramsayi was not meaning that, but i was not sure if harlemrain realised what was meant by an intergrade. As far as being a sub-species...... well that argument is going to go on for infinitum until some researcher can come up with the coin to go full tilt down to DNA level to either confirm or deny it's existence, until then it is going to be an us V them situation on whether pure, X or intergrade  ...............................Ron


There would be nothing to discuss over a few scotches if all the little things like that was solved.


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## Skeptic (Jun 17, 2013)

For what it's worth I've never seen anything I would call a Coastal or a Diamond around here and I wouldn't really expect to. Plenty of intergrades though.


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## ronhalling (Jun 17, 2013)

We have done plenty of herping and camping in the Cairncross State Forest on the other side of Tower Trail and seen upwards of 20 coastals in there that have absolutely no evidence of Diamond in them, meaning no rosettes, smaller head and a more lined pattern than a blotchy one and conversely have seen diamonds in the everglades rainforest area at shelly beach that look every bit as pure as the gosford locale black and whites with distinct rosettes and the large diamond head. Why does an invisible line on the map have to deffinatively describe all snakes from that area as in the progress of being something else, if according to the range of typical pythons coastals are from Coffs Harbour (which is where harlemrain got her coastal) to Newcastle and diamonds are from Newcastle to the Victorian border would that not make the "Intergrade Zone" Newcastle to Gosford??. If you look at Harlemrain's coastal from Coffs Harbour and mine from Kempsey they look almost identical (except hers is 1 year old and mine is 6 so the pattern and color are not as condensed on mine. Just more food for thought, I am not trying to be a smarty or be arguementitive and i am sorry to harlemrain for hijacking her thread, but i am very passionate about this intergrade debate that has been going on for quite a number of years, I respect Skeptic and his opinion and i am not going to be stupid enough to say i know more than many of the learned people here especially Norm Andy and Skeptic "but" i cannot lay down and say just because a line on the map says this is where coastals are turning into diamonds and diamonds are turning into coastals that there are those that are not.  .......................................Ron


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## RedFox (Jun 17, 2013)

Port Macquarie sounds like it could be an interesting place to go herping. Ron would you mind posting some pics of your coastal? 

OP if you could find the breeders details it could be interesting to find out the locality/localities of the parents if they are known.


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## harlemrain (Jun 17, 2013)

Skeptic said:


> For what it's worth I've never seen anything I would call a Coastal or a Diamond around here and I wouldn't really expect to. Plenty of intergrades though.



About a month ago I saw (as far as I could tell) a coastal on grant st of all places, just up from the stop sign crawling across the street and down towards the houses there. Stopped and waited for him to get off the road safely as I am nowhere near experienced enough to go handling in the wild lol and was on my way. That's the only one I've seen at Port in the wild, but didn't look anything like my little guy so I'm pretty sure it was a coastal but you never know, could have something else thrown in there as well


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## Skeptic (Jun 17, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> We have done plenty of herping and camping in the Cairncross State Forest on the other side of Tower Trail and seen upwards of 20 coastals in there that have absolutely no evidence of Diamond in them, meaning no rosettes, smaller head and a more lined pattern than a blotchy one and conversely have seen diamonds in the everglades rainforest area at shelly beach that look every bit as pure as the gosford locale black and whites with distinct rosettes and the large diamond head. Why does an invisible line on the map have to deffinatively describe all snakes from that area as in the progress of being something else, if according to the range of typical pythons coastals are from Coffs Harbour (which is where harlemrain got her coastal) to Newcastle and diamonds are from Newcastle to the Victorian border would that not make the "Intergrade Zone" Newcastle to Gosford??. If you look at Harlemrain's coastal from Coffs Harbour and mine from Kempsey they look almost identical (except hers is 1 year old and mine is 6 so the pattern and color are not as condensed on mine. Just more food for thought, I am not trying to be a smarty or be arguementitive and i am sorry to harlemrain for hijacking her thread, but i am very passionate about this intergrade debate that has been going on for quite a number of years, I respect Skeptic and his opinion and i am not going to be stupid enough to say i know more than many of the learned people here especially Norm Andy and Skeptic "but" i cannot lay down and say just because a line on the map says this is where coastals are turning into diamonds and diamonds are turning into coastals that there are those that are not.  .......................................Ron




I'm certainly no expert on the subject Ron and couldn't say definitively that there are no pure Diamonds or Coastals in the area. I would say that I highly doubt it though given that we are a good couple of hundred kilometers either side of the cut off zone for both and slap bang in the middle of the intergrade zone. 

That being said there is a lot of variation in our carpets around here.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jun 17, 2013)

What clearly adds confusion to discussions such as this is the incorrect use of the two term “hybrid” and “intergrade”. While the meanings of each do overlap the terms should not be viewed as simply interchangeable.

Intergrade, when applied to Morelia pythons, is a naturally occurring phenomenon. It applies to any individual that a naturally occurring form that is intermediate to two separate taxonomically recognised forms. It is most commonly applied to where the distributions of the two subspecies, _Morelia__ spilota spilota_ (Diamond Python) and _Morelia__ spilota variegata* _CORRECTION: Should read _M. s. mcdowelli _(Coastal Carpet Python) physically overlap and there natural inter-breeding of the two sub-species. As a natural consequence of the overlap of distributions combined with the mobility of these animals, in moving from the end of the pure distribution of one subspecies to the beginning of the pure distribution of the other, the animals will be found to merge gradually, one with another, through a continuous series of intermediate forms from one subspecies to the other. The distinctions will range from the subtlest of differences to full-blown middle of the road between the two.

Bear in mind that these subspecies originated from a common ancestor and have a lot of genes in common.Given the gradation that occurs with intergrades between subspecies it is meaningless to attempt to ascribe them to categories – be it subspecies, race, form or whatever.


A hybrid is an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera. Most hybrids are produced through human intervention. You could describe intergrades as “natural hybrids”. The issue I have with that is that in nature, most intergrades will breed with animals that are similar to themselves and it is only over distance that a larger variation occurs. Basically, I believe “hybrid” should be reserved for human manipulation of breeding and therefore maintain a distinction between it and intergrades.

I hope you don’t mind me sharing my thoughts.
Blue


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## RedFox (Jun 17, 2013)

I read on a thread a few days ago, a snake relocater from gosford???, posted that escaped coastals have being mixing with the local diamonds affecting the purity of the wild population. Could port Mac have similar sort of thing happening to 'muddy' the pure localities, making it even more difficult to determine intergrades from diamonds and coastals.

Oh and what ever happened to just calling them all port mac carpets?


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## Norm (Jun 18, 2013)

Ron I'm no "expert" on the matter, just trying to learn as much as I can the same as you. I'm sorry but I just can't believe there are pure wild coastals and diamonds smack bang in the middle of the intergrade zone. I believe what your seeing is intergrades with either heavy diamond or coastal influence.
I'm the first to admit I haven't done a lot of herping so my first hand knowledge of wild animals isn't strong but I've taken a lot of notice of people on here who have and taking all I have learnt into consideration I believe there are no pure diamond or coastal carpet pythons in the port Macquarie area.
Harlemrain, I may have missed something, were you told by the breeder your snake is from Coffs Harbour area?


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## harlemrain (Jun 18, 2013)

Norm said:


> Ron I'm no "expert" on the matter, just trying to learn as much as I can the same as you. I'm sorry but I just can't believe there are pure wild coastals and diamonds smack bang in the middle of the intergrade zone. I believe what your seeing is intergrades with either heavy diamond or coastal influence.
> I'm the first to admit I haven't done a lot of herping so my first hand knowledge of wild animals isn't strong but I've taken a lot of notice of people on here who have and taking all I have learnt into consideration I believe there are no pure diamond or coastal carpet pythons in the port Macquarie area.
> Harlemrain, I may have missed something, were you told by the breeder your snake is from Coffs Harbour area?



All I know is he bred them himself from what he said were 2 coastals, but looking back now with more knowledge than I had then they looked like port mac pythons to me or intergrades, whichever you like to call them


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## Norm (Jun 18, 2013)

In earlier posts Ron said your snake is from Coffs Harbour, wasn't sure if you were told its a Coffs Harbour python or it was bought from there.


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## harlemrain (Jun 18, 2013)

Just bought from there, the guy I got him from just called him a coastal not a Coffs Harbour Python (Whatever that is?)


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## Norm (Jun 18, 2013)

By Coffs Harbour python I mean a python found in the wild from there, its locality.
Also sorry Ron but you've got your intergrade zone wrong, between newcastle and coffs is the zone not Gosford and Newcastle.


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## buckziggy (Jun 18, 2013)

yea its definitely a coastal carpet python and its possibly a juvenile


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## ronhalling (Jun 18, 2013)

RedFox said:


> Port Macquarie sounds like it could be an interesting place to go herping. Ron would you mind posting some pics of your coastal?
> 
> OP if you could find the breeders details it could be interesting to find out the locality/localities of the parents if they are known.



Hey RedFox, scattered throughout the forum are plenty of pics of our girl but just for you i will condense a few here for you. ......................................Ron


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## ronhalling (Jun 18, 2013)

Norm said:


> By Coffs Harbour python I mean a python found in the wild from there, its locality.
> Also sorry Ron but you've got your intergrade zone wrong, between newcastle and coffs is the zone not Gosford and Newcastle.



Hey Norm, what i actually said was "if The Coastals start at Coffs and the Diamonds start at the Vic border shouldn't the Intergrade Zone make more sense if it was encompassed by the area from Newcastle to Gosford" seeing as how it is only 160kms from coffs to port mac and its 1000kms from port mac to the Vic border.  .....................Ron

P.S @ Blue i feel embarassed to pick up on such a wealth of knowledge such as yourself and i know it was probably just a small brain fart but "Morelia Spilota Variegata" is a Darwin whereas we have "Morelia Spilota McDowelli" here.  ..................................Ron


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## Norm (Jun 18, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> if according to the range of typical pythons coastals are from Coffs Harbour (which is where harlemrain got her coastal) to Newcastle and diamonds are from Newcastle to the Victorian border would that not make the "Intergrade Zone" Newcastle to Gosford??.



Ron, I don't mean to be argumentive but above is what you said. Maybe I misinterpreted it?
By the way, I think both snakes in this thread are really nice snakes.


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## andynic07 (Jun 18, 2013)

Norm said:


> I think what you've got is intergrades that have more features of either a diamond or coastal. I really don't believe that there are pure diamonds and coastals in the port Macquarie area that have never bred with anything other than their own kind. Just my opinion.





Skeptic said:


> For what it's worth I've never seen anything I would call a Coastal or a Diamond around here and I wouldn't really expect to. Plenty of intergrades though.



Why can there be no pure coastal carpet pythons in the intergrade zone or do you mean just at Port Macquarie?


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## ronhalling (Jun 18, 2013)

Norm said:


> Ron, I don't mean to be argumentive but above is what you said. Maybe I misinterpreted it?
> By the way, I think both snakes in this thread are really nice snakes.



Yeah my bad what it should have read was "what i actually meant was "if The Coastals start at Coffs and the Diamonds start at the Vic border shouldn't the Intergrade Zone make more sense if it was encompassed by the area from Newcastle to Gosford" seeing as how it is only 160kms from coffs to port mac and its 1000kms from port mac to the Vic border.  ............................................................Ron


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## Skeptic (Jun 18, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Why can there be no pure coastal carpet pythons in the intergrade zone or do you mean just at Port Macquarie?



The edges of the intergrade zone would most certainly be blurry. I would be surprised if I was to stumble upon a coastal or diamond slap bang in the middle though


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## RedFox (Jun 18, 2013)

I'm pretty sure what norm meant was on the borders of the coastal and intergrade zones you would expect to see both variants of Morelia spilota. Same on the diamond/intergrade border. But Port mac is pretty much in the centre of the intergrade zone so it would be expected that there would only be intergrade same as in the centre of the diamond zone there is only diamonds and centre of the coastal zone only coastals. 

I'm not disagreeing with Ron as I know very little about the subject and haven't being herping around port Macquarie (which is now on my bucket list), but given the definition of a intergrade as seen in the wiki tab, this is what would be expected.


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## Norm (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I meant Redfox. Ive been making these posts on my phone and therefore they haven't been as detailed as if I was at home on my computer. 
For anyone interested, track down some of the other threads on intergrades, theres stacks of them. Some of them address the subject a lot better than we have here.

Sorry for the hijack harlemrain, you certainly got more than you bargained for!


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## ronhalling (Jun 18, 2013)

Ok i will agree we are in the Intergrade Zone here in Port Mac and mine and harlemrain's Morelia are probably Intergrades even though she got hers from coffs harbour, but you need to read this excerpt to see why we get so damned confused: The exact range of Morelia s.cheynei is difficult to ascertain. The fragmented nature of its habitat and its often sympatric relationship with Morelia s. mcdowelli make defining this taxon, and its distribution difficult.
The southern edge of the general range of the jungle carpet lies at about 20 degrees south latitude, near Bowen. This form is strongly associated with the various river systems that drain the Atherton Tableland. Jungle carpets are also found along the watercourses lying north of the Tableland, from Julatten moving north through the Daintree region.
Carpet population located further north on the Cape York Peninsula are poorly understood. Some references designate them as mcdowelli, variagata, or cheynei. The taxonomic status of the animals in this area poorly defined at best. Animals from the Cape York region visually can display characteristics of all three sub-species and it seems likely that this area represents an intergrade zone between the three forms.
As little as one hundred years ago there still existed large amounts of rainforest habitat from Townsville, north, to the Pascoe River. With the development of modern logging equipment, 95% of this rainforest was destroyed, limiting the distribution of Morelia s. cheynei. The Resulting secondary growth and agriculture in those areas has allowed the advance of carpets pythons that are phenotypically similar to Morelia s. mcdowelli.
The relationship and areas of intergradation between these two taxons are convoluted at best and are largely the result of the last century of human habitation and utilization of the area. What the natural relationship between these forms was, prior to the destruction of much of the old growth rainforest is lost to us. and now you see why so many of us get so confused with them describing McDowelli and Variagata in the same region and trying to marginize an intergrade zone for 3 seperate types in 1 small area (no hair left now...and nothing is more scary than a bald fatman) and i don't think we really need to appologize to harlemrain because this has turned into a very educational (maybe a little frustrating) thread and she should be enjoying it. And i have not enjoyed myself this much since my snake ate my mother-in-law he he he  .............................Ron


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## longqi (Jun 19, 2013)

We found many pythons around Port Stephens that most definitely did not look like diamonds
Ive got a photo of a wild nearly full stripe, coiled up on a branch, from Bobs Farms that everyone says full coastal
We found many more that most definitely were pure diamonds
Yet Buladelah and points North seemed to be all pure diamond until you reached the so called Intergrade area
Same thing all through the Hunter etc


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## Bluetongue1 (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks for the correction *Ron* - slipped into old habits there for a moment. I did not want to complicate the issue with actual distributions but it has already happened. So time for a more in depth explanation.

Firstly you need to understand how closely related these subspecies are. You could take any two mature animals of opposite sex and expect to get viable and fertile offspring. In evolutionary terms, all the subspecies originated from a common ancestor. The different patterns that have developed are in response to environmental selection. You only have to look at Diamond hatchlings which are marked more like a baby Coastal. The darker colour of diamonds suits to the colder regions it occupies by increasing the rate absorption of the sun’s rays. Where temperature wasn’t so important and camouflage was, you have the development of the Coastal (Eastern) Carpet colouration. And so forth. 

For these different forms to develop as distinct groups, they need to be genetically isolated from one another. So some mechanism needs to exist to prevent interbreeding and gene flow between the developing differentiating populations. The barriers can be Geographic e.g. distance, a region of unsuitable habitat; Behavioural e.g. breed at different times; Chemical e.g. depend on different pheromones to stimulate sexual attraction; Visual e.g. male-female recognition is through colours and patterns. Whatever the barrier or barriers were, they now seem to have disappeared to a large degree.

*A Possible Scenario*
[These are my thoughts only based on logical possibility and nothing else]
Diamonds can be found along coastal NSW to the mountains almost to the Queensland border. Natural intergrades can be found south to just north of Newcastle. What this suggests to me is that coastal carpets have extended their range from Queensland to mid-NSW and that some time after doing so, the natural barrier to them interbreeding has broken down. It could have been pheromone based and one species has crossed a pheromone trail of another species at the same time as suitor of that second species comes on the scene. Looks funny but smells right, so it mates. The offspring may well react to either or both pheromones, come their turn to breed. It would seem apparent that there were pockets and areas of surviving Coastal Carpet populations but land clearing and human activities have almost certainly fragmented and reduced these, if not entirely wiping many out. I say that because the intergrade genes have not been totally subsumed by the Diamond populations. Irrespective, it is not a simple and well defined area of overlap and what applies to one area may not be the case with another.

Blue


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## Norm (Jun 19, 2013)

Ron, you keep referring to Harlems snake being from Coffs Harbour. She has stated that she bought from a breeder in coffs but he never said it was a coffs locality. Longqi describes different populations having different appearances, I have seen a photo of a wild python from the bulladelha area that looked almost perfect diamond, though it was a bad photo. This seems to support longqi comments.


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## ronhalling (Jun 19, 2013)

Sorry Norm, you are dead right there and i should have thought about that a bit more, but in my haste to point out the location of her Morelia i did not think about it's locale, ie that breeder might have a male and female from down here and bred them making the offspring Port Mac locale but bred in Coffs Harbour (lol i got too excited) and thank you very much Blue for your complex yet uncomplicated description of what an *INTERGRADE* really is and how the *INTERGRADE ZONE* is actually defined (see it did not take a length of 4x2 after all) I think where i was getting it wrong was not applying any flexability in how M.S. McDowelli and M.S. Spilota were seperated by locale. Now that i realize this more everyone can now breathe a sigh of relief and can now cancell the lynch party that was probably being organized for this person of Port Mac locale  .....................Ron


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## Norm (Jun 19, 2013)

Lol! No lynch party Ron! Just good old fashioned debate! It's all good fun.Longqi appears to have a very good knowledge of intergrades ( of most things actually ), especially of the Port Stephens area which interests me cos I have some pythons from there. Also Pythoninfinate who has managed somehow to stay out of this intergrade debate has a way of explaining it very simply. Where are you Jamie??


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## harlemrain (Jun 19, 2013)

I spent half the time scratching my head and re-reading lol but very informative


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## ronhalling (Jun 19, 2013)

harlemrain said:


> I spent half the time scratching my head and re-reading lol but very informative





It was very very informative Harls, lol for awhile there i thought i was going to have a meltdown till Blue came along and saved me, AGAIN my dear i am sorry for hijacking your thread but in retrospect it was good that i did as i think alot of those who read it got some good info from it.  ......................Ron


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## harlemrain (Jun 19, 2013)

It wasn't "hi-jacking" all this info is more likely than not very relevant to my snake :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> I reckon just leave it as is Harls, noone is going to question it, mine is recorded as "Morelia Spilota McDowelli" and until proven otherwise that is how it shall remain, and @ "Ramsayi" i do realise this is the intergrade zone IE where the territory for coastals overlaps the territory for diamonds (for those who don't know) but that does not mean there are no pure diamonds or pure coastals here.  ....................................Ron



Actually, it does mean that in this area (I live here too), there are NO "pure" Diamonds or "pure" Coastals... The snakes here have a quite variable appearance, and you'll find that this occurs even within siblings from the same clutch. To suggest that there are "pure" Diamonds and Coastals coexisting alongside each other, as well as the things we call Intergrades, implies that they are selective about the appearance of the animals they mate with, but of course this doesn't happen.

I've been in the area for over 10 years, I've seen many pythons on the roads and on properties from Taree to Kempsey and beyond in each direction, and I've never seen a snake which I could call a "pure" Diamond or a "pure" Coastal, every one of them has had elements of both to a gretaer or lesser extent.

It's not until you go south of around Port Stephens for Diamonds, or north from Coffs for Coastals, that you see animals which could reliably regarded as "pure," whatever that may mean in the context of Carpet Python genetics as they are currently understood.

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2013)

Norm said:


> Lol! No lynch party Ron! Just good old fashioned debate! It's all good fun.Longqi appears to have a very good knowledge of intergrades ( of most things actually ), especially of the Port Stephens area which interests me cos I have some pythons from there. Also Pythoninfinate who has managed somehow to stay out of this intergrade debate has a way of explaining it very simply. Where are you Jamie??



Ha! I'm here! A few things to say here (I've already said a bit in the post above)! Firstly here, Very much of what we read here is dependent on what we individually perceive as a Diamond, a Coastal or an Intergrade. The things I call Diamonds may not be the things anyone else calls Diamonds, but I base my IDs on very specific characteristics - the main feature being small rosettes (7 scales or less), whitish or yellow (not brown) spots on each scale (to a greater or lesser extent - sometimes almost non-existent, leading to an almost black python with tiny rosettes). I'm pretty inflexible about this, and snakes with these characteristics are less frequently encountered the further north from the Gosford area you go, up to around Port Stephens. North of Port Stephens the pythons you will encounter have increasingly bold markings with larger rosettes.I would actually be very surprised if the things we call (by appearance) "true" Diamonds are found anywhere near the Qld border - I certainly have never seen one up here in the Port Macquarie area.

As far as identifying a captive bred snake and being able to ascertain its likely geographic origin, unless it is very clearly a Diamond such as I've described above, it would be impossible to say where its origins lie. As snake such as the OP shows here could come from anywhere north of about Newcastle - I've seen very similar animals from southern Queensland, and around here in PM - so even if we disregard the possibilities facilitated by captive breeding of mixed-heritage animals, you may never be even close when assessing the geographical origin of one of these things. It could be anything from anywhere north of a pretty well-defined area around Port Stephens.

Jamie


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## ronhalling (Jun 19, 2013)

Thank you Jamie for weighing in on this subject, you are another here who's opinion i respect greatly, i was just too bullheaded to accept the fact that our animals were not "pure" as the animals i had seen in the Cairncross area had no identifiable markings that made them stand out as having any M.S.Spilota in them, in fact if you had seen them you would be more likely to say they were more M.S.Variagata than M.S.McDowelli in appearance, and as i said a couple of Diamonds i have seen at Shelly Beach looked more like Gosford locale Diamonds with all rosettes and no splotch type markings. Thanks to Norm, Blue, Skeptic and now yourself i have seen the error of my thinking and can now see more clearly what is meant by the term *INTERGRADE* where originally i was thinking X, whoa is me lol  .............................Ron


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2013)

Ha - no worries! Don't forget also Ron, that there is a good chance that we'll see escapees from time to time around here (in built-up areas - lots of people have Diamonds here) so you can add those to the mix as well. But if you see a "true" Diamond and even a similar Intergrade, they look like chalk & cheese.

And then there's the historic thing of the common names people use and have used for decades or more... locally there seems to be about a 50-50 chance that people who aren't involved with snakes but see them from time-to-time call them either Carpets or Diamonds. It's what dad used to call them so that's what we call them...

I should say that what I'm describing here is based solely on appearance... genetics is probably an entirely different story...

Jamie


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## Norm (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks Jamie, like I said you have a way of explaining things very well. Wish you lived closer I'd love to catch up some time for a chin wag!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2013)

Norm said:


> Thanks Jamie, like I said you have a way of explaining things very well. Wish you lived closer I'd love to catch up some time for a chin wag!



Well, I do jump on the bike occasionally and get down to the Newy area from time-to-time... I'll keep you posted. Just put the kettle on...

J


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## Norm (Jun 19, 2013)

Kettles always on stand-by...that is if the beer fridge is empty!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2013)

Norm said:


> Kettles always on stand-by...that is if the beer fridge is empty!



Back around 1975 I did something very silly by combining a visit to the Octoberfest in Perth and riding home on a (then) high powered motorcycle... so I swore off mixing even one glass of alcohol and motorcycling at the same time  and I've never broken that rule... but if I stay overnight... 

So kettle is fine! 

J


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## Norm (Jun 19, 2013)

Back in 1975 I was only 2 year old!! Kettle it is!


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## Becca-Marie (Jun 19, 2013)

I didnt exist lol

Sent from my LG-P690f using Tapatalk 2


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## longqi (Jun 19, 2013)

Norm said:


> Lol! No lynch party Ron! Just good old fashioned debate! It's all good fun.Longqi appears to have a very good knowledge of intergrades ( of most things actually ), especially of the Port Stephens area which interests me cos I have some pythons from there. Also Pythoninfinate who has managed somehow to stay out of this intergrade debate has a way of explaining it very simply. Where are you Jamie??



Port Stephens has 3 distinctly different pythons in close proximity
One very small isolated area has the blackest diamonds Ive ever seen
Anna bay and Swan bay have plenty of high yellows
Mangroves around Marsh rd over to Lemon tree many that I would call intergrade or even full coastal
because some of those are monsters compared to diamonds







cannot upload other pics sorry


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## Wally (Jun 19, 2013)

Same snakes with a variety of apparel.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jun 19, 2013)

*Jamie*,
I don’t recall ever seeing a bike parked around the house or houses, to be more correct. A temporary hiatus from riding? I must admit I had a similar experience and from that day to this, if I had so much as one beer, I would not ride the bike. 

Human want to be able to put things in boxes. That way we can put a label on it and when we refer to we are comfortable about knowing what we have in mind. Classifying living things is one of activities of putting things in boxes. The problem is, nature is not that simplistic. Natural populations are dynamic entities undergoing change, both over time and distance and at varying rates. Where the existing populations are clearly defined from neighbouring populations, due to cessation of gene flow, the boxes work well. Where there is adaptive radiation and separating populations but still on-going gene flow between them, the boxes no longer fit so well.

This is why the concept of a *species complex* was introduced. It recognises that you can have gene flow between identifiably different species at the extremities of their distribution. The same applies with subspecies. The change from one species or subspecies to another is a spectrum, complicated by our traditions of species identification based on specific morphological characteristics which can often be all over the shop within a given area of the distribution. Drawing lines on a spectrum is hard enough. Due to the complexities of the genetic nature of any given individual, individual characteristics usually do not show a continuous gradation spatially. Multiply the complexity of the task by the number of characteristics being used. There is no such thing as a fine continuous gradation. Usually, identification of the species or subspecies populations at extremities of the distribution is the best you can do. 

*Jamie*, your definition of a Diamond based on physical features is consistent for animals from Newcastle to Gippsland. Clearly, the underlying genetic makeup is likely to be similarly consistent i.e. what degree of variation may exist will be minor. The value in your description is that it provides a definitive benchmark to differentiate “pure Diamond” from other than. Sincere thanks for that.

*Longqi*,
Here are the photos you sent me a long time ago. (They come from the Port Stephens area.) You might like to comment further on each....





Blue


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 20, 2013)

Yep Mike, I've had bikes on & off since about 1974, all BMW sports bikes, R90S '74-'80, K100RS '84-'90, and in an attempt to reactivate my rapidly fading youth, I got a BMW K1300S a couple of years ago ... I love it, but Deb is not so enamoured with the idea ... I realised quite early on that bikes and alcohol are a very bad mix...

Jamie


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## moosenoose (Jun 20, 2013)

Looks like a nice snake. Who genuinely cares what it is (unless you're planning on breeding pure line snakes. I've got a stunner jungle x coastal from a breeder who ran out of space after a burn-out in an enclosure and subsequently resulted in a few oddballs :lol: 

I suppose what matters is if they are trying to fob it off at a premium price which suggests it's a pure line animal, and in realistic terms intergrades are a natural occurring snake anyway.

I had to sing a song for my hybrid :lol:


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## longqi (Jun 20, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Longqi*,
> Here are the photos you sent me a long time ago. (They come from the Port Stephens area.) You might like to comment further on each....
> View attachment 291487
> View attachment 291485
> ...



Those three snakes all came from an area close together in Port Stephens
One in the middle with my mum is????
I could not categorise that as pure diamond yet it has many diamond features
That one and first one used to use my airing closet above the water heater to have clutches
Both were wild and wandered in and out as they pleased
Last one was caught in a bushfire next door and after treatment just hung around for the free tucker

[no cats or dogs permitted on that property and it was like the garden of eden]


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## Norm (Jun 20, 2013)

Without looking like dead ringers, the first 2 resemble in some way the 3 Port stephens pythons I have. The last one looks the most pure diamond like to me. The 3 I have all have similarities with out looking identical.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jun 22, 2013)

Thanks *Peter*.

I guess if you were to try and quantify the relative amounts of Diamond versus Coastal in them, you would have to say they were well and truly predominantly Diamond. Not to be entirely unexpected given their locality. It certainly shifted the zone of overlap of the subspecies a lot further south than I had previously though. The physical distance than zone covers is mind boggling to me. I have struggled to satisfactorily account for what is happening there. Whatever it is, I don’t believe the answer to be a simple one. Nature is truly fascinating.


How about that *Jamie*. I started riding about the same time – my brother had a 125 given to him. I bought a 250 Honda a few years later, then a BMW R100/7 about 6 years down the track. Rode it across Australia and back on my own. It is still sitting on blocks in the shed. How come bikes are attractive to single girls but wives don’t want to know about them? I am jealous of your most recent acquisition. At least you don’t have to learn again how snick the gears in. My first gear change had me look overing over my shoulder to see how much metal had fallen out on to the road. Lol. They are a precision engineered and beautifully balanced machine.

Mike


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 22, 2013)

Ha! Still off topic (sorry mods)... don't have to worry about gear changes on the 1300S Mike - it has an awesome "quickshift" - a no clutch upshift so just a tiny flick of the toe and you're in the next gear (the spark is momentarily retarded to allow for a smooth change, so the power roll-on is stepless. 0-100 in 2.7 sec. You can use the clutch at lower speeds but the roll-on of power when I get onto the highway from my local road is just awesome... Yes, I've never worked out the change in sentiment between girlfriends & wives lol!

J


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## cement (Jun 22, 2013)

For what it is worth, the phenotype is the only real indication that we have when we describe diamond, integrade or coastal. The whole east coast of NSW is obviously home to carpet python that are or seem genetically the same, but the colour and pattern changes as you go from sth to nth or nth to sth.
Only by getting out there and personally sighting wild pythons are you able to get an idea of what is what. And I believe, that the catchers and relocators (who see hundreds) have a much better idea again, then your weekend herper, because of the volume of snakes that they actually see. 
I reckon the confusion with the labels of these pythons is due to firstly, not fully understanding the word integrade, and secondly that with so much written word on the net on this subject, newbies tend to over think the subject and make it much, much more complicated then it really is. 
Think of it like the colours of a rainbow, where as you go up or down through the spectrum, you observe that the edges of the colours blend, but when you stand back and look at it, red is completely different to violet.
The photos Blue has put up show a semi striped python and a spotted python. The pattern is different but the colours would be the same, yellow on black. The further north you go, you would expect to find more of the striping, or joining of rosettes and less of the spotting, and the colour changing to show animals with browns and greys, finally resulting in the pattern that we recognise as coastal.
It is interesting though that where colonies of python are isolated, then there will be a more similar pattern and colour throughout that region, and if it isn't yet, then it is on the way to becoming.
In all the years of relocating snakes here on the central coast in the Gosford shire, I have never seen a partly striped or half striped animal like the one that is in the photo above, though I have caught and relocated many, that people here would without hesitation, call intergrade because of the rosettes that join. Gosford isn't in intergrade zone so these are diamonds.
Also Ron in an earlier post you said something about Gosford black and whites.
M.s.spilota here in Gosford are not black and white, they are black and yellow.
Like the rainbow analogy, the whites occur further south. So... basically the white goes from white to yellow to brown as you go north, and the pattern makes changes along the way as well. Before we started keeping pythons, wild type would have been true to form in each area, now around heavily populated zones (like Gosford etc) wild type is slowly being influenced by the number of escapee pythons on the loose. Not so much in the country areas though.


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## Darlyn (Jun 22, 2013)

Interesting chat guys. I thought diamonds required a lower temp to other pythons so are intergrades kept according to coastals heat requirements or diamonds? Be interesting to see someone do the research in the cross over area to see what is actually there, DNA/genetic testing.


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## cement (Jun 22, 2013)

Hi Darlyn, this is where a lot of diamond keepers get it wrong. They don't require lower temps, they just need the same temps less often. I am always reading info from people saying that diamonds shouldn't get over 30 degrees. I guarantee that if you give a diamond 35-40 degree basking site they will use it without any ill health.
In summer here they get all the heat they want, I record body temps of diamonds that I catch, and some that I catch basking are well over 30 degrees.
With my captive breeding diamonds, if their basking sites are on, then they have access to heat in the high 30's. The thing is..... when and how often is the heat on?


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## longqi (Jun 23, 2013)

finally found the other photo


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## Norm (Jun 23, 2013)

Where was that one found, Longqi? Looks to have very strong coastal influence.


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## longqi (Jun 23, 2013)

Marsh rd Bobs Farm
pure coastal with no diamond indicators anywhere imo
terrible photo doesnt do it justice
nearly full stripe with rainbow hues all over


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## Norm (Jun 23, 2013)

Wow! I don't do any herping but I would never have thought you'd find something like that around there unless escaped.


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## longqi (Jun 23, 2013)

That was before snakes were common as pets
Too many similar ones around that area to be a fluke
Most showed very little or no diamond influence
That one was the best I ever saw there though

This is why it will be difficult for anyone to state exactly where a specific diamond came from
Port Stephens has 3 distinct diamond colour variations plus these guys
One very small area has diamonds so black most people think they are red bellies at first glance
Roofer from Lemon tree passage had 2 light cream ones, not albino because no red eyes
but awesome snakes both adult female and definitely diamond going by the faint pattern
Vanished after he died


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## ronhalling (Jun 23, 2013)

longqi said:


> finally found the other photo



Hey longqi, that pic is almost a complete swap for the specimens that we have seen the other side of tower trail in the Cairncross state forest  ........................Ron


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## longqi (Jun 23, 2013)

Thats just north of Port Mac??


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## Norm (Jun 23, 2013)

Your picture may have turned this debate on its head, Longqi! Could this picture also add weight to Rohdawgs argument in this thread? http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/coastal-carpet-aviary-204161/

Also I`ve posted on here a couple of times before about My wifes uncle who grew up on a dairy farm in the very spot where we live now in Maryland, Newcastle. He has told me that in the bush between wallsend and minmi there were both diamonds and what he called "carpets". He `s no snake expert but he said they definitely weren't diamonds. 

I guess the appearance of a photo like this makes both the above claims, mine and Rohdawgs a bit more possible?


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## Norm (Jun 23, 2013)

"Roofer from Lemon tree passage had 2 light cream ones, not albino because no red eyes
but awesome snakes both adult female and definitely diamond going by the faint pattern
Vanished after he died "

I`ve heard these spoken of before, not sure if was you Longqi or someone else, may not have even been on APS, I cant remember.


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## longqi (Jun 23, 2013)

Minmi has quite a few strange pythons there
Also some strange ones inland a bit

Always been discussion about different looking diamonds
Always will be
We have so much to learn


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## longqi (Jun 23, 2013)

He died about 2001/2 if I remember correctly
But had them for a few years before that


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## Bluetongue1 (Jun 23, 2013)

Rather than turning the discussion on its head, I feel it reaffirms the massive area of overlap of the original two subspecies and that mixing between different populations has not taken place evenly. I doubt we will get any solid answers until someone gets out there and gathers a heap of genetic samples to profile and analyse. A daunting project even for a lmited area.

It would be interesting to know just how much the appearance relates to genetic differences and physiological/behaviuoral differences - not that I expect that I that to happen in my lifetime. But someone may determine the genetics of pattern and colour development/differentiation for a start. Even with the above, it will still be like a huge jigsaw puzzle in which human settelement has removed half of the pieces and disturbed many of the rest.


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## ronhalling (Jun 26, 2013)

longqi said:


> Thats just north of Port Mac??



Cairncross is situated where the A is on the map longqi cairncross - Google Maps that pic was so amazing, it was like looking at the same population of "Coastals" or Intergrades i found at Cairncross Forest  ...........................Ron


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