# Feeding live prey



## Tatelina (Nov 16, 2006)

After watching a few movies on YouTube of people feeding live prey to their pet snakes I've suddenly realised that I don't think I will ever be able to kill my pet snakes food! However feeding live prey is out of the question for me as not only is it ILLEGAL, but morally I am disgusted by it for these reasons:-

-domesticated prey that is bred and 'grown' lack the adrenaline rush that animals get in the wild when out hunting/feeding/scavaging/and being hunted and therefore feel more pain when they get crushed slowly to death and are bitten

-our often overfed pet snakes that can miss prey may not have it down pat to kill live prey (as they are slightly domesticated) so invoke more pain with the more strikes they have

-I used to breed mice (and was quite good at it) and had rodents (including many rabbits, guinea pigs and rats) as loved pets before I had an interest in reptiles.

Here are some * GRAPHIC * videos of live prey feeding that I have come across on YouTube..
(did you read the graphic part? Some people may not like them. Others will find it fascinating)
[video=youtube;AiLmcPNxvOA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiLmcPNxvOA[/video] 
[video=youtube;aFJoTmmYXuw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFJoTmmYXuw&mode=related&search=[/video]
[video=youtube;8FbPJQqhQB8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FbPJQqhQB8&NR[/video]

If you breed your own feed, how do you kill them? Do you care about minising pain?
Did you ever have a problem feeding live prey? If so how did you overcome it?
Have you/do you feed your reptiles live prey?












On another completely reversed note..... a live snake gets eaten.. for a change.
(WARNING: also graphic to some)
[video=youtube;0BGp_SiCGgs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BGp_SiCGgs[/video]


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## Jakee (Nov 16, 2006)

discusting isnt it !


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## bredli84 (Nov 16, 2006)

there was a thread a while back of someones home made carbon dioxide gas chamber. cant remember who posted it. it involved bi-carb soda and vinegar in a large plastic box.


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## Australis (Nov 16, 2006)

I hold the rat/mouse by the base of the tail, and wack their head against a brick, instant death.

I dont feed live Rodents to my animals, not worth the risk to the snake.............


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## Jakee (Nov 16, 2006)

Look at this one, WARNING dont watch any videos on this thread it may make you upset !
[video=youtube;6yijl5I0ruk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yijl5I0ruk&mode=related&search=[/video]

Makes me SICK !


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## Jakee (Nov 16, 2006)

But seriously why would you feed your snakes live food, cruelty, may hurt your snake and is discusting to watch !


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## mangoman (Nov 16, 2006)

I think whitey has got the right idea!


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## Jakee (Nov 16, 2006)

Whitey, what type of club you use ??


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## bredli84 (Nov 16, 2006)

of course u dont feel a thing. your on the wrong end! :lol:


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## cris (Nov 16, 2006)

grab their tail and wack their heads on a rock or something it kills them instantly every time if you do it right. Breaking their necks is also acceptable by law too and kills fairly quick.
Co2 gassing is good for large numbers and for ppl who cant handle the other way(im not saying that is bad either). If you dont gas them right it can also be cruel.

I have fed live prey before and will in the future if needed. It is perfectly legal if you need live food to get the animal to eat and thats the only time i ever do it.

I like watching wild animals hunt in the wild and stuff, but setup things like you see on youtube are pretty ***t up IMO.

Still ppl who let there cats outside where they can kill and torture wildlife are far worse than ppl who feed live food to their snakes.


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## mangoman (Nov 16, 2006)

CRIKEY :shock: that should get the job done lol


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## Tatelina (Nov 16, 2006)

bredli84 said:


> there was a thread a while back of someones home made carbon dioxide gas chamber. cant remember who posted it. it involved bi-carb soda and vinegar in a large plastic box.



I didn't read that thread... I wonder if that would be more humane than the 'whack' method.. 


At this stage I can't see myself whacking a mouse or rat.. :s although logically it tells me that it would be the quickest and most painfree death of all the options..but still.. *shudders*
oh dear.. I have so much to learn with my new found love of reptiles..


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## mangoman (Nov 16, 2006)

the souvenir shop in the solomons will have some business coming their way me thinks lol


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## bredli84 (Nov 16, 2006)

hey,i just buy frozen mice and rats. im too soft to kill'em myself


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## Kaotic (Nov 16, 2006)

there should be a note at the start of this thread that the video will upset some viewers


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## Tatelina (Nov 16, 2006)

Kaotic said:


> there should be a note at the start of this thread that the video will upset some viewers



There was just before the videos.. I bolded it and mentioned it twice. Did you read the post?


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## nuggets (Nov 16, 2006)

yeah like when i posted it i put a warning ..and its funny to see how differnt your opions are now only 30min later....you know who you are....live feeding can harm your snake......


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## Kaotic (Nov 16, 2006)

i skimmed over it....but i didn't notice the warning...sorry


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## mangoman (Nov 16, 2006)

nuggets you got the wrong end of the club er um snake fella!!! er thats if your comments were directed at me..


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## Tatelina (Nov 16, 2006)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> here it is, swift and quick! dont feel a thing.


Is that what you really use?! Do you ever squish your food unintentionally? Ew....



bredli84 said:


> hey,i just buy frozen mice and rats. im too soft to kill'em myself


I think I will have to do exactly the same... But unfortunately there are no suppliers or pet shops in my area! Bah! So will either need to trek...or learn how to do it myself! :s =s


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## Tatelina (Nov 16, 2006)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> the second one, is there a rat tail hanging out of mouth while it swallows a chick?



Yes! I commented on that in our thread and in his comments..
So that means he didnt feed the chick..he feed a rat and poss placed the chick in its mouse in that position.. =s :s


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

i cant stomach wackin a rat on the head. so i put mine in zip lock bags and pop them into the freezer. some people may say thats cruel. but, i hav been doing it for bout 6yrs now and i know no other way.


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## kwaka_80 (Nov 17, 2006)

bredli84 said:


> there was a thread a while back of someones home made carbon dioxide gas chamber. cant remember who posted it. it involved bi-carb soda and vinegar in a large plastic box.



yeah the chemical reaction from the bi carb and viniger makes c02 the gas that they use in most gas killings... it still gives the victim the satisfaction of breathing but they just dont get oxygen as such making there bodys "fall asleep" rather than getting "killed"


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

it might be cruel but i put mine in a snap lock bag and put them straight into the freezer its so cold in there within 5mins there dead i cant knock them out againest a wall or brick or rock and sometimes i have given live food only to giver her a natural instinct of hunting like she was out in the wild....other then them times i normally giver them to her defrosted and warmed up


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 17, 2006)

> i cant stomach wackin a rat on the head. so i put mine in zip lock bags and pop them into the freezer. some people may say thats cruel. but, i hav been doing it for bout 6yrs now and i know no other way.


this is the most cruel thing ive heard today


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

sssssssnakeman:
thank you for your comment. 
but like i said, i dont have the stomach to wack a rat on the head. so i put them in the freezer and walk away. like aussie p said, they are dead in about 5 minutes
sorry if that disgusts you.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 17, 2006)

it only disgusts me because it does not take 5 minutes,,it takes longer,and causes 20 times more pain,buy frozen,bloke up or give the snakes a miss


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

why would i take advice from you. you dont know me. i have been breeding and killing rats for my reptiles for over 6 years. just because i dont want to smack it on the head.
do u think i am the only one out there who freezes there pets food....i dont think so.
like i said....thanks for the comment.


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## nuggets (Nov 17, 2006)

thats about as cruel as feeding live bunny to your snake,,
its funny how you condem one becauce its got nice floppy ears.
but for the poor rat its fine......THIS SITES FULL OF WANTABeeS... AND kids
if you cant handle one of the most important part of looking after your snake them you sould get a cat instead you only have to open a can to feed it........but them you will have to look into how the kangaroos(YOUR NATIOnal simbal) was killed to make sure it wasnt cruel....[deleted comment]


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

nuggets you dont know me
i am not a kid, i am a mother and a wife. and my duaghter doesnt want to see her mother smacking rats heads into walls. 
i have been keeping reptiles for well over 6 years. so i certainly am not a newby. if u dont like what i do, then fine. your comments arnt going to change me in anyway, and i know i aint the only one that does it. now if u dont mind i have to take my daughter to school.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 17, 2006)

i have two teenagers to and have been wacking rodents for a very long time.they dont see it but if they did i would say yes kids this is what happens..there is a mountain of evidence saying how cruel it is ..google it if you think im wrong


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## nuggets (Nov 17, 2006)

so does that mean you put those live rats in the freezer to die a slow painfull death IN FRONT OF YOUR SCHOOL AGED DAUGHTER.....how cruel


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

there are alot of ppl who do it and i think its time to build the bridge and get the hell over it get on with ur own life and not worry about wat other ppl do  its called mind ur business mmmm k


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 17, 2006)

like ive said before animal cruelty is hard to ignore,even if it is 'legal'.i do consider it my business when you promote this cruel practice to newbies as a way of getting out of your responsibities to the animal you are attempting to euthenise


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## Nome (Nov 17, 2006)

Sorry Mel, they are right. It is cruel and has been proven to be so. Its definately one of the cruelest ways you can kill a rodent, live feeding even kills them quicker. It is far from painless freezing a mammal to death.

If you don't want to whack them in front of your daughter..don't do it in front of your daughter.

If you can't stomach it, do what we've been doing for years and buy them frozen prepacked (we use pythoninfinite, the best rats around).

We used to breed rats and mice years ago, I used cervical dislocation or whacking method. It was hard and I don't think I could do it again, which is why we buy frozen now, even though it probably costs more. But we buy hundreds of them in bulk, about 6 months worth and it's much better.

Hope it helps, like Baz said google it and you will find it is most definatley painful. Hopefully you can find another method and save further pain to your feeders.


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Hey APL... You know I really think it is important people stand up to what is right. I do agree freezing is cruel. I can only advise against it and tell you the reasons for it.

The way I also see it is... If I was to be murdered/killed for food, i would like it quick and painless. Even 5 minutes of pain in a ziplock bag - or severe uncomfortableness is really not what I would like. This can also have adverse affects on the meat of the animal and toxins are produced by the liver as well...

Damn, the bell went... I respect almost everyone here... and everyone is entitled to their opinion and here's mine...

The best way to kill a rodent/mammal is quickly and painlessly. The best way and cheapest is the blow to the head. Whether you have the stomach for it or not. 

The next way that is possible and quick is using car exhaust - I don't agree with this way however. But it is possible.

But people - attack the ideas... NOT THE PEOPLE doing them... this is where forums often go bad.... Ideas people... IDEAS!


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## Nome (Nov 17, 2006)

ssssnakeman said:


> like ive said before animal cruelty is hard to ignore,even if it is 'legal'.i do consider it my business when you promote this cruel practice to newbies as a way of getting out of your responsibities to the animal you are attempting to euthenise



That's right on Baz. APL with all the misinformation on this site, it's important that something like this isn't promoted to newbies. 

This is not a way to humanely kill an animal. It sounds like it's the quickest method and probably the least messy for you, but it's not humane at all.


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

ummm ok im not promoting anything i was just sayin how i did it and as i have not long had a baby even puttin them in the freezer puts me off instead of ppl jumping down ppls throats about things do you all think to ask ppl if they still do it or wat do they do now thing??? i dont see anyone in here asking them type of questions but thats wat shats me about these type of forum ppl dont give ppl a chance to fully explain themselves and as i said to sssnakeman or watever the name is i was doin it too babys as now my husband does them and we give adults now and i was doin it to the babies b4 i had my 5mths old daughter but each to thier own no ones opinion is going to change the way i do things as i no longer do it this way i no longer care bout this thread as this will be the last one i post on here my bridge was built i got over it


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## nuggets (Nov 17, 2006)

airing your cruel feed managment on a forum makes it hard to mind ones buisness..
but it is the idea of it that will allways get attacked not nessceraly the indivdual when aired on forums .... and it is all helpfull no matter how bad the topic,,forums rule...


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## ando611 (Nov 17, 2006)

I couldn't even watch ANY of those vids the whole way through.


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## mangoman (Nov 17, 2006)

perhaps if your sqeemish about whacking, you can always use an old shirt or something if it bothers you, just cover the prey in the shirt find the head and give it a quick whack, done!


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## Rosemary (Nov 17, 2006)

Guys I really think you have to think about what you are all doing in killing rats/mice. When we first got snakes i never thought I would be able to feed rodents, dead or alive, and told my daughter if she wanted the snake she could do it.
I have changed heaps tho, have asked lots of questions and talked to many people. Freezing, mice or any animal or reptile live is the cruelest way for the animal to die.
I usually bump my rodents on the head and then feed them (freshly killed) or use defrosted ones that have been killed with co2. I have teenage daughters too who do not like seeing me kill the rodents, they know what is happening and accept it. Most times they leave the room or look the other way....very simple solution.
Whoever it was who mentioned using car exhaust....I would think very carefully about the health of your snake, as if you do that too often the toxins that the rodent has inhaled will be passed on to your snake.


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Hey Tatelina can i please hijack your thread for a quick question...? Please.. pwetty pwease

You know how if we defrost chicken and then re-freeze it we increase our risk of contracting salmanellosis or food poisoning of sorts.... Is it the same if I defrost a mouse and then re-freeze it?


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## junglepython2 (Nov 17, 2006)

Yes


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Rosemary said:


> Whoever it was who mentioned using car exhaust....I would think very carefully about the health of your snake, as if you do that too often the toxins that the rodent has inhaled will be passed on to your snake.



Sorry to bring science into this... but the half life for most of the toxins is in the 'hours' or less time frame. New petrol burns quite cleanly... it's the inefficiency of a cars engine that produces the lethal coctail of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. The benzene is burnt in similar ways.

You will find the main constituents of car exhaust is carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and water... A few other unburnt hydrocarbons will not last long in the lungs of the mouse/rat... Hey.. I don't recommend it AT ALL... I suggested it as an option OPPOSING freezing.

Personally, the helathy whack to the head is the ONLY way that i wouold ever use!


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## Vat69 (Nov 17, 2006)

To the 'disgusted' types who dont like doing the live prey thing (which I agree should only ever be done as a last resort, never as entertainment and only by experienced keepers etc.): how would you deal with a snake that only accepts live/freshly killed prey? Destroy it so that no rodents suffer? Or perhaps you'd rather sell it to someone else to take care of and then write them off on an internet forum because they are willing to feed live prey to keep the animal alive?

And how is it that it's ok to torture a rat to death in the freezer but not kill it humanely by just whacking it's head?

Out of curiosity how long have the aforementioned types been keeping? I hope you've been in the hobby long enough and experienced all different kinds of feeding behaviour so that your arguments aren't totally fuelled by ignorence


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## nuggets (Nov 17, 2006)

not good to freeze and re freeze .....its not worth the few dollars you save.....if your snakes not eating . wait a week or two and then try again ,it can be very frustrating i know , if waiting fales look at the temps in the cage , cover the cage for a few days so the snake cant see you then try it again, works for me ...good luck ...


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

nuggets said:


> not good to freeze and re freeze .....its not worth the few dollars you save.....if your snakes not eating . wait a week or two and then try again ,it can be very frustrating i know , if waiting fales look at the temps in the cage , cover the cage for a few days so the snake cant see you then try it again, works for me ...good luck ...



Oh haha... No... My snake eats religiously like she's starving.. she gets her 5 day feed... What I was thinking was I have to ge tthe food home in the Cairns tropical heat and I was 'worried' about the health of my snake if the feed defrosts before I got it home and then re-freeze it.

I was wondering what the dangers were? Can she get 'food poisoning'?


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## mangoman (Nov 17, 2006)

Vat69 said:


> To the 'disgusted' types who dont like doing the live prey thing (which I agree should only ever be done as a last resort, never as entertainment and only by experienced keepers etc.): how would you deal with a snake that only accepts live/freshly killed prey? Destroy it so that no rodents suffer? Or perhaps you'd rather sell it to someone else to take care of and then write them off on an internet forum because they are willing to feed live prey to keep the animal alive?



should only ever be done as a last resort, never as entertainment "your words"



Vat69 said:


> And how is it that it's ok to torture a rat to death in the freezer but not kill it humanely by just whacking it's head?



its not ok, wacking wins



Vat69 said:


> Out of curiosity how long have the aforementioned types been keeping? I hope you've been in the hobby long enough and experienced all different kinds of feeding behaviour so that your arguments aren't totally fuelled by ignorence



i dont own a snake  but i have some knowlege about the subject!


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 17, 2006)

> Sorry to bring science into this... but the half life for most of the toxins is in the 'hours' or less time frame.


most but not all,if lead is in the fuel then that could potentially build up in your snake if they ate it regularly..but you are so right about the wacking.vat69 is right ,there is a time and place for live feeding,but recording it to post on utube for public viewing is only going to bad for herpers in general.


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## Vat69 (Nov 17, 2006)

Uhh.. wha?

Good to see you're not anti-whacking


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## elapid68 (Nov 17, 2006)

bredli84 said:


> there was a thread a while back of someones home made carbon dioxide gas chamber. cant remember who posted it. it involved bi-carb soda and vinegar in a large plastic box.


OK people, for those who are against freezing ( and that should be everyone) and for those that can't stomach whacking or breaking necks, here's a quick cheap and effective way of euthanasing rodents ( or any small animal for that matter )

Home euthanasia


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## Jungletrans (Nov 17, 2006)

I remember watching one of those pet shows on tv where someone from the RSPCA said that the most humane way to kill small animals [ at the time it was about wild mice caught live in a trap ] was to put them in a bag into the freezer . They go to sleep very quickly then die . The same thing happens to humans in the snow , you get sleepy then die .


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## turtle (Nov 17, 2006)

I've had to feed snakes in the past live prey on a number of occasions because it was the only way i could get them to eat. At the end of the day everyone has their own methods of killing their snake food and each to their own on how they do it. 
Peace


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

Everyone has their ways, And I am sure people who whack, freeze, gas or whatever will continue to do so. At the end of the day it is personal choice as to how your animals get fed.
I don't judge people who kill to sustain their animals, Getting enjoyment and entertainment from watching an animal suffer through it's death throes is a different thing altogether. We all know it happens but why do the links continually get posted? And for those who complain about the practice the most are the ones who watch the clips!


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

ssssnakeman said:


> most but not all,if lead is in the fuel then that could potentially build up in your snake if they ate it regularly..but you are so right about the wacking.vat69 is right ,there is a time and place for live feeding,but recording it to post on utube for public viewing is only going to bad for herpers in general.



Lead was removed from the fuel in ALL south pacific and Australasian countries in the 80s!!!


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

nuggets said:


> thats about as cruel as feeding live bunny to your snake,,
> its funny how you condem one becauce its got nice floppy ears.
> but for the poor rat its fine......THIS SITES FULL OF WANTABeeS... AND kids
> if you cant handle one of the most important part of looking after your snake them you sould get a cat instead you only have to open a can to feed it........but them you will have to look into how the kangaroos(YOUR NATIOnal simbal) was killed to make sure it wasnt cruel...........



Hey... I asked to hear how people killied their food.. Thankyou Megalea and everyone else for responding. Thankyou nuggets for your opinion in response but we are all herpers of varying degrees here and do things differently. 
If I was up to the stage of needing to kill my own food I would be freezing them aswell because as I have not looked that much into it I just assume that the animals will go into hyperthermic shock as humans do and pass out before their heart does.
There are many more horrible ways that you could do the deed... We are just sharing experiences and stories here.


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

nuggets said:


> thats about as cruel as feeding live bunny to your snake,,
> its funny how you condem one becauce its got nice floppy ears.
> but for the poor rat its fine......THIS SITES FULL OF WANTABeeS... AND kids
> if you cant handle one of the most important part of looking after your snake them you sould get a cat instead you only have to open a can to feed it........but them you will have to look into how the kangaroos(YOUR NATIOnal simbal) was killed to make sure it wasnt cruel...........



Im not sure how many people said feeding a rat is fine while a rabbit isn't...? 
I do have a cat.. and I adore it. And I am aware of the products that I feed it daily... After being a vegetarian for 5and a half years you seem to learn all sorts of unpleasant things..


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## Retic (Nov 17, 2006)

I can't believe anyone would freeze an animal to death to avoid having to actually kill it properly and painlessly. It is by far the cruelest method of killing rodents.


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## moosenoose (Nov 17, 2006)

boa said:


> I can't believe anyone would freeze an animal to death to avoid having to actually kill it properly and painlessly. It is by far the cruelest method of killing rodents.



I totally agree! If ppl can't do it more humanely than this, then they need to buy their stocks pre-killed off a supplier somewhere.


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

boa said:


> I can't believe anyone would freeze an animal to death to avoid having to actually kill it properly and painlessly. It is by far the cruelest method of killing rodents.



And what about if you miss the first time whacking it and have to whack again? *shudders at the memory of watching people whack trout continuosly at a trout farm until they we're still wiggling and bleeding from the head... just because they're weren't doing it correctly..:S *



ssssnakeman said:


> like ive said before animal cruelty is hard to ignore,even if it is 'legal'.i do consider it my business when you promote this cruel practice to newbies as a way of getting out of your responsibities to the animal you are attempting to euthenise


 Who's promoting? They're just telling us..
And as a note: ALL NEWBS! Read this thread and others, do research, talk to experienced keepers and MAKE YOUR OWN DESCISION!


slim6y said:


> But people - attack the ideas... NOT THE PEOPLE doing them... this is where forums often go bad.... Ideas people... IDEAS!


So true slim6y!!! Ofcourse you can hijack my thread!  Its a valid consideration anyway.


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Yes the double whacking isn't so good... But still quicker than freezing 

Qhat about an electric chair setup? ZAP! Then whack so you don't cook em! This is how meat works do it. they stun them with a tazer then a reloadable steel bolt to the head. Of course a cattle sized implement for a mouse would obviously knock its head right off... but I am sure there's something similar - or there's a market for it... oh oh oh... i'm going to invent it... Yeah... RICH I tell ya, I'm gonna be rich (and available).

I will call it the Slim6y killing machine... At your local pet shops. It will come complete with the shocker device and also the reloadable mouse sized bolt that can be set to pinkie, fuzzie, weaner (which i will spell correctly when marketed), blah blah blah... ahhh.. the bell goes just as I am inventing... Oh well... Watch this space!


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## Darkon (Nov 17, 2006)

customs freezes animals that have been smuggled into australia some times, does it make it ok for them because they have aurthority?


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

Well as a fisherman I can tell ya, I have cut the throats of plenty of fish, and they have bled to death. I dont get thrills from that fact, But I rather the heart pump the blood out rather then get absorbed into the flesh. And hey if anyone out there has a problem with this then think about what was on your dinner plate for your last meal, And if you are a vegetarian then you still contribute to the deaths of animals by the clearing of land and the harvesting of crops. I don't think many people set out to cause any animals undue harm and am adverse to any unfair treatment to any animals (baring cane-toads of course) But if you keep carnivorous animals as pets then animals are going to die so your animal can live, Life is not without pain, and death rarely is.


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## Vincent (Nov 17, 2006)

Well said Caustichumor. Personally, i dont see what all the fuss is about. The least of my worries in life is if a rodent feels pain.


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

well all i can say is thank you  wat ppl do in the own privacy of thier own homes is thier business........monkey see monkey do


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

i understand not everyone does the same thing. 
but i just answered a question for 'my name is tatelina'
i didnt ask to be abused by so many people. 
if i had known u would all be carrying on so badly i wouldnt hav answered.
i have better things to worry about then how many minutes a rat takes to freeze to death.


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2006)

Mmmm, fishy!


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## Vincent (Nov 17, 2006)

JasonL said:


> Mmmm, fishy!


Is that Jeffs animal so cruelly eating a live fish?


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

lol


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2006)

Yes, tried to talk it into eating something else, but it just wouldn't be in it.


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

Does feeding him/her a live fish count as cruelty?

IsK


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

JasonL said:


> Mmmm, fishy!



haha comic relief from all the claws that are swiping..thanks.
I didn't even consider fish in this endeavour... how are they fed?


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## moosenoose (Nov 17, 2006)

IsK67 said:


> Does feeding him/her a live fish count as cruelty?
> 
> IsK



Yes! Fish have feelings too you know! :twisted:


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

has anyone built the bridge yet???


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

Hmm. I don't know. Sounds a bit fishy to me.

I s'pose taking it out of the water is cruel. Maybe the snake should be put under the water to eat it??


IsK


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

moosenoose said:


> Yes! Fish have feelings too you know! :twisted:



Well actually it can be argued as to weather they have pain receptors...  
I do however believe they feel pain and have a survival instinct just as any other creature.
If I was a fish though.. I would choose death by digestion over death by suffocation after being pulled out of the water with a hook peircing the roof of my mouth.


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

IsK67 said:


> Hmm. I don't know. Sounds a bit fishy to me.
> 
> I s'pose taking it out of the water is cruel. Maybe the snake should be put under the water to eat it??
> 
> ...



I assume we're talking about feeding water pythons..do they majorily live in the water? Are fish just released into the tank for feeding?


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2006)

IsK67 said:


> Does feeding him/her a live fish count as cruelty?
> 
> IsK



Well I guess it depends on you view, but does letting a snake starve to death because all it will eat is live fish, frogs and lizards count as cruelty. Life in general is cruel, it's just the level that changes.


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

caustichumor said:


> Well as a fisherman I can tell ya, I have cut the throats of plenty of fish, and they have bled to death. I dont get thrills from that fact, But I rather the heart pump the blood out rather then get absorbed into the flesh. And hey if anyone out there has a problem with this then think about what was on your dinner plate for your last meal, And if you are a vegetarian then you still contribute to the deaths of animals by the clearing of land and the harvesting of crops. I don't think many people set out to cause any animals undue harm and am adverse to any unfair treatment to any animals (baring cane-toads of course) But if you keep carnivorous animals as pets then animals are going to die so your animal can live, Life is not without pain, and death rarely is.



i'm not trying to be funny here.. but what RIGHT does anyone have to treat any ORDER of any animal with cruelty? Why should anyone torture a cane toad? Does anyone think they don't feel pain because they're a pest? Do they think it's ok to torture an animal because it has pest status. I don't get on my high horse often, but this is one thing that just gives me the s h i ts - no animal is deserving of cruelty - as no human is either. 

A cane toad, although uselss to some respect to our fine land, is not any more at fault of its own being than that of the person who stupidly introduced them. Go torture him! 

DON'T TORTURE ANY ANIMALS - It's not right and it never will be, there's no excuse for us to do so in any way what so ever!

If you must kill cane toads, give them the same respect you would to that of putting your own pet out of its misery (if that was ever the case). Kill the animal swiftly with no pain involved (if possible).

I understand new rules have come in to schools... this year we discected cane toads - this is normal. We teach the kids to kill the animals humanely and swiftly. Although, I was under the impression the freezer was infact the most humane way to do so. But apparently we were wrong! 

Anyway... Caustic - this isn't aimed at you - so don't take it personally because I just used your thread there as an example... It's the idea of torture and animals that should be seen here.

Well - Now let's all go kill a cane toad swiftly without torture!


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> I assume we're talking about feeding water pythons..do they majorily live in the water? Are fish just released into the tank for feeding?



I was under the impression all water pythons live BY water not in water.


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

slim6y said:


> i'm not trying to be funny here.. but what RIGHT does anyone have to treat any ORDER of any animal with cruelty?



So you'll be giving up keeping animals in cages then and just enjoying the ones you see in the wild?

IsK


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

IsK67 said:


> So you'll be giving up keeping animals in cages then and just enjoying the ones you see in the wild?
> 
> IsK



So you're making this a personal judgement on me? Why is it cruel to keep a snake in a click clack? Why is it cruel to keep a snake in a 4 foot glass tank? 

I don't keep monitors because I don't have the space.

I don't keep caged animals because I don't have a cage.

I would really like to know where you're heading with that statement... I was suggesting beating up cane toads for enjoyment is cruelty to an animal... not keeping a snake in a 4 foot tank...


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

Hey I don't torture any animals, my yardstick goes to any animals that I find acceptable to whack to death with a golf club, (Which seems to be a very quick and painless death), but one that I would not inflict on any other animal bar canetoads.


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> I assume we're talking about feeding water pythons..do they majorily live in the water? Are fish just released into the tank for feeding?



Water pythons eat rodents like most other pythons, they are often found in swampy areas but are not a true aquatic snake. Snakes that eat fish are things like tree snakes and file snakes. Sometimes you can get tree snakes to eat dead rodent but other just refuse to. Fish are placed into a small tub of water within the enclosure and the tree snake eats at will (normally with seconds). Other true aquatic snakes like file snakes, fish are just kept in the same aquarium as the snakes are living in to be eaten at will.


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

caustichumor said:


> Hey I don't torture any animals, my yardstick goes to any animals that I find acceptable to whack to death with a golf club, (Which seems to be a very quick and painless death), but one that I would not inflict on any other animal bar canetoads.



But that's not cruelty you see - my point is the people who torture the animals because they're a pest - Golf clubbing, quick and painless, is an acceptable form of death for a cane toad.

It would in fact be no different to the accepted way of killing a rodent to feed to a snake. But on a different scale.


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

And the only living thing I have ever tortured or punished would be my liver


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

caustichumor said:


> And the only living thing I have ever tortured or punished would be my liver



HAHAHA... Mine is no longer classified as living... So it's acceptable to torture it. Bring on that moooooooonshine!


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

lol if the killing of a cane toad was directed at me....be more of a man and speak up and say a name so u know the only thing that killed that cane toad this morning was the snake so b4 taken the joke me and tate were talking bout maybe ask if i really did kill it insteasd of insinuating that i did ok facts buddy facts.....obviously u dun know them tsk tsk of accusing ppl in killing a cane toad and not have the guts to say a name........:| as far as im concerned really build a bridge n get over the fact that ppl do what they want to do in thier own homes who knows if you all do certain things and deny and hide it from ppl.....i dont judge wat other ppl do so put that where the sun dont shine


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

And in a previous post in this thread I said I don't condone inhumanity to ANY animal, kill what you have to kill but if you get your kicks out of it, maybe you should see a shrink


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

slim6y said:


> So you're making this a personal judgement on me?



Nope. It was just a question.



> Why is it cruel to keep a snake in a click clack? Why is it cruel to keep a snake in a 4 foot glass tank?


Dunno. But people tell me all the time that it is.



> I don't keep monitors because I don't have the space.


OK



> I don't keep caged animals because I don't have a cage.


Semantics?



> I would really like to know where you're heading with that statement.


'Twas a question. Not a statement. 

Take it easy and lighten up a bit or you may pop something. It was meant as a light hearted retort. Nothing more.

Peace
IsK


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Aussie Python Lover said:


> lol if the killing of a cane toad was directed at me....be more of a man and speak up and say a name so u know the only thing that killed that cane toad this morning was the snake so b4 taken the joke me and tate were talking bout maybe ask if i really did kill it insteasd of insinuating that i did ok facts buddy facts.....obviously u dun know them tsk tsk of accusing ppl in killing a cane toad and not have the guts to say a name........:| as far as im concerned really build a bridge n get over the fact that ppl do what they want to do in thier own homes who knows if you all do certain things and deny and hide it from ppl.....i dont judge wat other ppl do so put that where the sun dont shine



EEEEEEEK... I should read this entire thread before posting... Ok... let's see - what have we here... NO APL it wasn't directed at you OR anyone... It was a GENERAL idea of cruelty.

I'm not making any judgements... But you appear to have made one on my comments... It was my high horse opinion APL - that no one should torture ANY animal... if you're in the class of torturing animals, then that';s your perogative, I just wished we could all got along =

Definitely NOT aimed at you... sorry APL... that bridge was long crossed... We ok with that?


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

IsK67 said:


> Nope. It was just a question.
> 
> Dunno. But people tell me all the time that it is.
> 
> ...



eeeeek... Ok... So - i took your post the wrong way... Am lightened up now. =


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

sorry slim6y its just how you came across with talking bout the canetoads after i had a run in with one and a blk snake with a red stripe earlier this morning is all my apologies i dont torture any animals well i did with ants and a magnifying glasss when i was ten but i just wanted to see if it would burn lol..........but cane toads with rectonol is the only thing we can use here but seriously who wants to pick up a cane toad and say howdy mate hows ya roidds need some rectonol to help it along??? god.....LMAO


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## junglist* (Nov 17, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> After watching a few movies on YouTube of people feeding live prey to their pet snakes I've suddenly realised that I don't think I will ever be able to kill my pet snakes food! However feeding live prey is out of the question for me as not only is it ILLEGAL, but morally I am disgusted by it for these reasons:-
> 
> -domesticated prey that is bred and 'grown' lack the adrenaline rush that animals get in the wild when out hunting/feeding/scavaging/and being hunted and therefore feel more pain when they get crushed slowly to death and are bitten
> 
> ...



Well, i'll start from the top.

It is not illegal if the animal will not eat any other way. Your morals should not come into it. WE ARE KILLERS, WE ARE PREDATORS. If you keep a carnivorous animal, you should be prepared to care for it properly. IE KILL THE FEED ITEMS, OR RISKM HARMING YOUR SPECIMEN WHEN FEEDING LIVE.

you cant have it both ways, you either kill the animal, or knock it out to an extent that even if it wakes up, it'll have no ability to hurt your snake.

At the end of the day, they are only rodents, and they are food for the animals we love.

1. You are just plain wrong here. There is no evidence to support your proposition.

2. This sounds like a much needed push towards live feeding, because the your snake will have good aim and will be quick to kill.

3. Your own stupid fault for looking at pests as pets.


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

LMAO

Well it's obvious none you need any exercise. What with all the jumping to conclusions, Foot stomping, golf clubbing and flying off the handle.

*Note this is only directed at those that have been doing the above.*

No its NOT directed at you.

Oh and btw someone hand me some ear plugs. There's too much eeeeeking in here.



IsK


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

So much for this thread, I'm going back to clubbing baby fur seals!


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

lol


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

junglist* said:


> It is not illegal if the animal will not eat any other way. .



It's illegal.
It's legal.

Seems to be a lot of armchair lawyers in this place. Can anyone point to where it conclusively states either way?

IsK

PS. This is a question. Not an attack.
_
Disclaimer: If it can be seen as an attack then put your other glasses on and vice versa_


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## richard70au (Nov 17, 2006)

I think the main thing that we are all missing here is that snakes, even though purchased from dealers and shops and the like is that they are wild animals. I have fed my snake live mice, not that I do this all the time, but I couldn't get it to eat frozen, if we all took our snakes out and let them go, they would hunt and eat live prey, be it mice, rats, frogs, cats ECT.
My main concern with feeding live is that I don't want some angry rat/mouse to be backed into a corner and fight back causing pain to my snake. I preferably buy frozen, but if unavailable, I buy live and they get the wack treatment as stated by many others. It is interesting to see them hunt prey and constrict then swallow.
I feed live crickets to my lizards, they love them and it gives them the feeling that they are still hunting, even if I handed it to them in there enclosure.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 17, 2006)

> So much for this thread, I'm going back to clubbing baby fur seals!


lol, at least your not freezing them to death,lol


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

junglist* said:


> 1. You are just plain wrong here. There is no evidence to support your proposition.
> 3. Your own stupid fault for looking at pests as pets.


Hahahahahahahahah! Yes my own fault for looking at domesticated pests that have now been breed at a very high success as pets.
And no 1. I'm just plain wrong in your opinion. Just because I did not post any evidence and you yourself have not seen/read any does not mean that there is none. 
Besides...It is just my thoughts. Most people tend to not judge other people for their thoughts and allow people their own opinions. 



IsK67 said:


> LMAO
> 
> Well it's obvious none you need any exercise. What with all the jumping to conclusions, Foot stomping, golf clubbing and flying off the handle.
> 
> ...


So true!!!! Has everybody got PMS?? Gentleman?? Must be because everyone is stressed from the breeding season... Everyone breathe in.... breathe out.. breathe in..breathe out.


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

No. Not everybody.

IsK


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Im not taking it personally... My PMS is rife at the mo...


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## Tsidasa (Nov 17, 2006)

melgalea said:


> i have better things to worry about then how many minutes a rat takes to freeze to death.


 
and so the rat has to suffer for it? ignorance is not an excuse IMO to be inhumane to an animal. 
Especially now that you know that there is a good deal of chance that you are making these small mammals suffer, i would hope that you would cease this mode of murder.

I could not imagine teaching a worse thing to a child than being inhumane because you can't bring yourself to do the right thing because it may make you feel queezy.


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

and what Tsidasa said - that's kinda what i wanted to say without people attacking my idea that cruelty is wrong and then going on a tangent about keeping snakes as pets... CRUELTY in any form way or shape is WRONG. 

OK - pointing finger at IsK67 - hehe... you good with that? you don't have to agree, but atleast you see my point (hopefully) - that's what opinions are all about.


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

Tsidasa said:


> i would hope that you would cease this mode of murder. /quote]
> 
> Could someone please point me to a list of Murder Modes?
> 
> ...


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## IsK67 (Nov 17, 2006)

slim6y said:


> OK - pointing finger at IsK67 -



Don't point that thing at me. It could go off!!

IsK
(Is that a mode of murder?)


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## moosenoose (Nov 17, 2006)

Murderers!


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

finger??? hehe.. go off??? No... it just makes some holes in the air... It never goes off... 

And of course - finger pointing is, but not limited to, a mode of murder


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

Tsidasa said:


> and so the rat has to suffer for it? ignorance is not an excuse IMO to be inhumane to an animal.
> Especially now that you know that there is a good deal of chance that you are making these small mammals suffer, i would hope that you would cease this mode of murder.
> 
> I could not imagine teaching a worse thing to a child than being inhumane because you can't bring yourself to do the right thing because it may make you feel queezy.



But what about when you don't 'whack' it correctly and its still quirming and in a lot of pain from being bashed in the head?
Truth is theres no 'proper' way to kill prey... Everyone just has to do it in the way that I can.

I personally though..shall be finding a variety of reliable food suppliers around my area!


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

Humans, We are a funny lot, I am Going to eat a steak for dinner tonight, or maybe a dozen chicken wings? But I don't want to go into the slaughterhouse and make sure the poor animals dont suffer, I want to eat it, If I had a club it would take me a lot longer to beat a cow to death but I would. This forum will always be a running debate, everyone has an opinion and everyone wants to think they are right. And Tsidasa, "Murder" I don't think so unless human is on the menu and that must mean you pay "hitmen" to prepare your animal feeds!


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> But what about when you don't 'whack' it correctly and its still quirming and in a lot of pain from being bashed in the head?
> Truth is theres no 'proper' way to kill prey... Everyone just has to do it in the way that I can.
> 
> I personally though..shall be finding a variety of reliable food suppliers around my area!



I think the suggestion is that the whack to the head, although not perfect, is slightly more perfect than the freezing option. If it's still squirming, it's only for a second.. not 5 or so minutes... a second comparing to 300 seconds... I know which option I will take.

And if the whack is done properly, it will be swift and painless and the snake get's warm food - naturally!


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## moosenoose (Nov 17, 2006)

Personally, I like to squeeze them around their frail little necks until I see the lights in their eyes go out  (but doesn't everyone? )


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## slim6y (Nov 17, 2006)

caustichumor said:


> Humans, We are a funny lot, I am Going to eat a steak for dinner tonight, or maybe a dozen chicken wings? But I don't want to go into the slaughterhouse and make sure the poor animals dont suffer, I want to eat it, If I had a club it would take me a lot longer to beat a cow to death but I would. This forum will always be a running debate, everyone has an opinion and everyone wants to think they are right. And Tsidasa, "Murder" I don't think so unless human is on the menu and that must mean you pay "hitmen" to prepare your animal feeds!



I'm obviously bored because I want to get myself in all sorts of strife here...

Firstly... I (maybe not all) am very aware of how my food is killed and kept. I won't eat much pork for that very reason... On the other hand I buy free range chickens and free range beef... The beef I buy has been slaughtered in a humane way (well, the ones I have been witness to were all killed in that way).

When we came out of the captain caveman age, we stopped clubbing animals and began using more sophisticated methods of killing and slaughtering.

If we had to go back to that age, you're right, many people wouldn't be able to do it - or they'd become vegetarians... 

It's hard to believe how many kids don't actually relate chicken from KFC to a chicken in a large pen. Or pork with babe... or dog food with phar lap... The whole point is... We detract from reality way too often... Let's hope tonights veal is slaughtered in a healthy and acceptable manner... Because that's what many people believe is right... plus it also stops lactic acid building up in the muscles when done right and the meat is far more tender!

I LOVE MEAT - and Sam Neil says it's good for me...


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

Yes, I am killing time as well , But it gets a bit annoying when everyone wants to live in a nice clean little world where death only happens on TV. I have hunted and cleaned my kills, I fish and eat those too. And as was mentioned we got to the top of the food chain with tooth, nail and club.
Condemning one person for the way they kill there animals, well that makes no sense when you are feeding the same dead animals to your pets, "mine were killed in a good way, a nice way, why my animals where killed so nice they are happier now then when they were alive. "


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## Nome (Nov 17, 2006)

I don't know what the problem is...so what we all feed dead rodents. The ones we feed are Co2ed, if they were frozen to death I would not purchase them from my rodent breeder. We have a collection of 50+ snakes (soon to be way more with eggs hatching) and that's the choice we make and make sure the ones we do get are killed humanely.

There is a difference in the way they are killed..and you don't have to be a head-in-the-sand greenie for it to bother you if freezing a live rodent to death is being pushed as not cruel.

What it is is lazy...I've done the rodent thing, hundreds of them. It would have been much easier and less messy for me (as a female) to stick them in the freezer live...but that's not the purpose. I used to believe if i was breeding these rodents for food, I would give them the best life and death as possible. Mine were kept very well, fed very well and killed in the quicket possible way.

It bothered me after a year of doing it, so I bought prekilled...simple way to do it if you don't like the mess that goes with it. Or set up a Co2 gas chamber.

Some of the things I've read lately is laughable, given out as advice from 2 month keepers on here. When it gets bad though is when it involves cruelty to an animal, feeder or not. (Before you freak out Mel, I'm not saying you are inexperienced or a 2 month keeper).

All people need to do is do some research. Yes, we all have better things to worry about in life, but if you are a snake keeper it is your responsibility to kill of your rodents humanely. It's part of reptile keeping.
And why get so personal? I don't get how disagreeing with the freezing rodents to death is now jumping down someone else's throat.


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

i dont have a problem with freezing my rats to death. what i have a problem with is that too many people have to many harsh comments to direct at people. 
no wonder we live in such a abusive world.


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

Tatelina asked a question.........i answered it..
so to everyone out there who cant handle the fact that i freeze my rats to death. 
get over it.


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## Nome (Nov 17, 2006)

I havne't seen anything I would call a harsh comment, maybe I haven't read the nine pages properly enough.

And Mel, I don't mind your posts, but you have made plenty of harsh personal comments yourself directed at people, nothing to do with reptiles either, and some in particular directed at a young silly girl. For this reason, I would have thought you were pretty thick skinned. I'm not having a go at you either, I think at least some of what you have said was right on the mark and you are a bit like me, you say what you think. 

Saying that though, if you can dish it out like you (and I) do, you gotta take it


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

i take it nome. 
i dont let these opinions upset me in anyway, i just think the website gets out of hand with everybodies comments. 
and as far as that certain young girl is concerned, i learned from her mistake. 
i understand everyone is entitled to there opinon.


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## Retic (Nov 17, 2006)

So what you are saying is that you kill your rodents in a slow and very cruel manner and we should just get over it and ignore the cruelty ?



melgalea said:


> Tatelina asked a question.........i answered it..
> so to everyone out there who cant handle the fact that i freeze my rats to death.
> get over it.


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

i have nothing more to say on the matter.


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## caustichumor (Nov 17, 2006)

Well I was trying to field the middle ground, But it appears that the majority is either tree huggers or seal clubbers. A dead rat is a dead rat! how it got to be dead is a matter for the historians!


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 17, 2006)

If it isn’t abundantly clear that freezing animals to death is animal cruelty at its extreme then you are either ignorant or support it. To say this practice is your own business is both arrogant and ignorant as animal cruelty is definitely every bodies business for those who condone it and not to mention, the practice is illegal.
If people want to publicise what they do here regardless of their good or misguided intentions then accept the flak that follows.
Killing is something that is a natural part our lives. Being unnecessarily cruel however, in today’s society when there are other methods of euthanasia that are deemed humane, is unacceptable.


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## Tsidasa (Nov 17, 2006)

Nome said:


> I don't know what the problem is...so what we all feed dead rodents. The ones we feed are Co2ed, if they were frozen to death I would not purchase them from my rodent breeder. We have a collection of 50+ snakes (soon to be way more with eggs hatching) and that's the choice we make and make sure the ones we do get are killed humanely.
> 
> There is a difference in the way they are killed..and you don't have to be a head-in-the-sand greenie for it to bother you if freezing a live rodent to death is being pushed as not cruel.
> 
> ...


 
Well said... and the murder comment was referring to the heartless way it was being done not the necessety of a dead rodent to feed your snake.
Yes animals are kept as foodstock but it doesn't mean we have to torture them. They still deserve our respect in life. I hate spiders but i wouldn't torture one to death, a quick stamp of the foot does it nicely.

i really have to question people's motives for freezing a creature to death when it has become clear that a CO2 chamber is a more responsible and humane way of euthanasing a mouse. You can pull apart what I say as much as you like, I am not always perfect at wording things but nothing you can say will actually condone knowingly hurting a living breathing creature.


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

how can u call someone u have never seen nor met ignorant.


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## Tsidasa (Nov 17, 2006)

melgalea said:


> i dont have a problem with freezing my rats to death. what i have a problem with is that too many people have to many harsh comments to direct at people.
> no wonder we live in such a abusive world.


 
oh i'm sorry my harsh comments got to you, atleast i didn't stick you in a freezer and let you die slowly and painfully. yes lets get things into perspective.


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## cyclamen (Nov 17, 2006)

this site has gone down the drain.
i cant even have my own opinion on it anymroe
i came here to make new friends. but its obvious alot of people have quite a few issues. 
i dont think i will come back on here again. as it is filled with not very nice people.


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## Retic (Nov 17, 2006)

I agree 100% Dave, anyone who cannot see that freezing a rat to death is incredibly cruel is indeed ignorant. You don't have to meet someone to realise that, you have told everyone you do it.

I definitely agree with you on this.

"i came here to make new friends. but its obvious alot of people have quite a few issues. 
i dont think i will come back on here again. as it is filled with not very nice people."


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## Nome (Nov 17, 2006)

caustichumor said:


> Well I was trying to field the middle ground, But it appears that the majority is either tree huggers or seal clubbers. A dead rat is a dead rat! how it got to be dead is a matter for the historians!



That is an extremely ignorant comment. A 5 second death compared to a 30 minute one is a big difference. I know what you would choose if you had to.

If you honestly believe what you say, IMO you shouldn't be keeping any animal that eats another, if you really believe that it doesn't matter.

I have to say, live feeding even bothers me much less than someone freezing their rodents to death.

Maybe I'm a tree hugger :roll:


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## Tsidasa (Nov 17, 2006)

melgalea said:


> this site has gone down the drain.
> i cant even have my own opinion on it anymroe
> i came here to make new friends. but its obvious alot of people have quite a few issues.
> i dont think i will come back on here again. as it is filled with not very nice people.


 
Mel you've dissapointed me a bit, it's not about opinions of course you are entitled to one, however the issue here is most people in their right mind do not enjoy seeing an animal hurt.
What people are upset over is that you don't seem to show any remorse.
Fair enough you did it, but the ignorance of continuuing to do it and defending it knowing what it has caused....you have no defence for that.

oh and if not wanting an animal to suffer makes me a "not very nice" person than so be it, i'll wear it...


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## cris (Nov 17, 2006)

caustichumor said:


> Well I was trying to field the middle ground, But it appears that the majority is either tree huggers or seal clubbers. A dead rat is a dead rat! how it got to be dead is a matter for the historians!



Im no tree hugger just because i think its shocking that someone who keeps pets can be so cruel without any reason other than being lazy or sadistic. It make little differance IMO whether the animal is something stupid like a snake or fish or an intellegent social animal like a rat, cat or dog. There is no excuse IMO for killing an animal in a cruel way when it can easily be killed humanely. 
I would hope the cruelty laws are applied to all those who openly violate them, such ppl shouldnt be allowed to keep any animals IMO.

Apart from the cruelty side of things it gives all of us reptile keepers a bad name when ppl force snakes to swallow live chicks, freeze rats or whatever other cruel acts, especially when it is in the view of the public such as on youtube or on a forum like this.


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## Tatelina (Nov 17, 2006)

Tsidasa said:


> Yes animals are kept as foodstock but it doesn't mean we have to torture them.


http://www.animal-lib.org.au/lists/list.shtml


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## mangoman (Nov 17, 2006)

INTERLUDE MUSIC


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## Tsidasa (Nov 17, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> http://www.animal-lib.org.au/lists/list.shtml


 
Thank you for the link.
I always make my best effort to buy products such as rspca eggs.... i would never knowingly endorse the mistreatment of animals. Just because it does occur doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to it.


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## Lucas (Nov 17, 2006)

Its pretty obvious that everyone was shocked at what Mel said. Now you'vee all taken your belts off and wipped her stupid, how about you all ease up a little hey


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## Nome (Nov 17, 2006)

melgalea said:


> this site has gone down the drain.
> i cant even have my own opinion on it anymroe
> i came here to make new friends. but its obvious alot of people have quite a few issues.
> i dont think i will come back on here again. as it is filled with not very nice people.



People have issues yes, issues with animal cruelty in this case...this is an animal website. I would expect no less.

Mel, this is getting silly. I noticed also you have no problem with it when you are on the other side ganging up on someone. You are one of the more outspoken people on this site, if you can say some harsh personal things to a girl wanting a scrubby or a young girl posting pictures up of herself, why can't others say something about your method of freezing live rodents.

Like I said before, if you can dish it, you should be able to take it. You said you could take it, so why now the tantrum?


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 17, 2006)

If you choose to judge a site so quickly because of condemnation on your act of cruelty, then you have a very narrow view on what this site can offer you and you leave a less educated person.
Adios.


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## nuggets (Nov 17, 2006)

dont give up mel, give the club a go ,
or get your man to doit


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## Lucas (Nov 17, 2006)

hey nuggets, seen any diamonds around your way lately?


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## nuggets (Nov 17, 2006)

yes i did last week 5-6 foot warming it self on the road just near rosedale, 
had to stop and help it out the way (most people down here dont as a result you see as many dead ones as you do dead roos)


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## Lucas (Nov 17, 2006)

I've noticed a few roadkills. A mate has a van at north durras. He says he comes across them a lot


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## Greebo (Nov 17, 2006)

melgalea said:


> this site has gone down the drain.
> i cant even have my own opinion on it anymroe
> i came here to make new friends. but its obvious alot of people have quite a few issues.
> i dont think i will come back on here again. as it is filled with not very nice people.




I've been through the entire thread and I can't find any of the abusive posts that you are refering to.


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

yes but ppl carry on about a rat/or mice in the freezer ppl do it to cane toads also cause no one in darwin anyways are allowed to whack it one with a golf club and talking about the dettol i was having a joke with tate about the dettol on the cane toad but all in all i said wat i did cause i used to put the pinkies in the freezer cause ya cant really whack them againest the wall cause they that small the blow might make them bleed out heaps u know wat i mean??? i never said that i put adult rats in the freezer at all in any of my comments and here in darwin to kill a cane toad we all here have been told to put it in the freezer......and ive said earlier when i did the pinkies in a snap lock bag it was way b4 i had my daughter i no longer do it my hubby lays them flat and puts a bar over there neck and pulls the tail and breaks there neck or something then we put them in the freezer......i no longer have the guts to do it he does it i feed the snake simple as that...and we all have our rights to our opinions


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

well at the time of me starting to breed rats/mice i did not know about things like that and i wasnt making you look like u was having a go at me buddha i was just putting it out there for ppl who did read my comment about the dettol from this mornings episode


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## Jungletrans (Nov 17, 2006)

i HAVE A TINY LITTLE RACK WITH HANDCUFFS TO HOLD THEM STILL WHILE I SLOWLY WHIP THEM TO DEATH . THE HARD BITS ARE GETTING THE LITTLE LEATHER BOOTS ON THEM AND GETING THE SMILES OFF THEIR FACES SO THE SNAKES DONT THINK THEY ARE BEING LAUGHED AT . THAT MIGHT GIVE THEM A COMPLEX AND WOULD BE REALY CRUEL .


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## Aussie Python Lover (Nov 17, 2006)

lol had to laugh at that one on ya jungle lol


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## serpenttongue (Nov 17, 2006)

Well....it's not like me to join in on these debates, in fact i dont think i ever have! Some of this may be long winded and abit off topic, but it's what's on my mind at the moment.

I would have thought that the first thing fledgling keepers learn is NOT to feed live prey to snakes, but i see that this practice is still very much alive. That's a damn shame considering that such a practice is not necessary. 

I've always felt that feeding live prey to snakes is a sign of inexperience or impatience on the part of the keeper, because i strongly believe that every snake will except dead prey if it is happy with it's captive environment. 

As we know rodents can cause severe damage to a snake when fed live. So i wonder...what's it going to take to convince keepers to stop feeding live rodents to their snakes? 

Fledgling keepers that feed live prey have the habit if just dropping the rodent into the enclosure at a time when the snake is unprepared. This usually leads to an inaccurate strike by the snake (grabbing the rodent in the wrong place), which in turn may allow the rodent to turn and bite the snake. I wonder if such fledgling keepers will stop, or continue feeding live after a rodent has just taken out the eye of their beloved snake. Is this what it's going to take? 

Haven't these keepers who feed live ever heard of stunning a rodent? If you stun the rodent then it will be unconscious but still kicking. This will eliminate some of the dangers of feeding live. But still they choose to feed alert, live rodents to their snakes.

I cant believe that people are freezing animals live. I dont think i want to know a person that freezes animals live. Whether you're feeding live or freezing live, either way you're side-stepping what really needs to be done. Wacking rodents against hard objects to kill them quickly almost goes hand in hand with keeping snakes. If you cant do this then either gas them, buy frozen or consider whether snake keeping is really for you.

All of the above is not directed at anyone in particular.


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## Australis (Nov 17, 2006)

Very Well Said ST.


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## Tatelina (Nov 18, 2006)

serpenttongue said:


> As we know rodents can cause severe damage to a snake when fed live. So i wonder...what's it going to take to convince keepers to stop feeding live rodents to their snakes?
> ...............or continue feeding live after a rodent has just taken out the eye of their beloved snake. Is this what it's going to take?


This is a link to someones bad experience after a live meal item was fed to their reptile...
http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/feeding/15585-thinking-about-feeding-live-welcome-live-pile.html



cris said:


> There is no excuse IMO for killing an animal in a cruel way when it can easily be killed humanely.
> I would hope the cruelty laws are applied to all those who openly violate them, such ppl shouldnt be allowed to keep any animals IMO.
> 
> Apart from the cruelty side of things it gives all of us reptile keepers a bad name when ppl force snakes to swallow live chicks, freeze rats or whatever other cruel acts, especially when it is in the view of the public such as on youtube or on a forum like this.


And what about people who feed live prey on the occasion? Your thoughts?


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## OdessaStud (Nov 18, 2006)

The only way Mel and all the other live freezers are going to stop this cruel,and in Qld illegal practice!!!!!!!!Sorry Mel but you said it more than once as if you are proud of the fact that you Freeze Live Rats, not pinkies but Rats!!One night when you go to the freezer one of your victims will jump out at you  Rodents have an amazing survival instinct and can survive for an hour at least in a freezer.The fact that you like to do it that way and "wont change no matter what anyone says"tells me that you are one of the people that Rodent breeders like myself try and steer clear of.NO RODENT IVE BRED WILL EVER BE FROZEN ALIVE!!!!! Do your rats a favor and get rid of them and buy frozen feeders I'll give you a 20% discount on my list price and deliver them to your door just to stop the barbaric way that yours are being killed.
Odie


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## freddy (Nov 18, 2006)

she is changing that. she didnt realize it was so bad, so now everyones jumped on her she is changing her ways. she has asked a few people for help and is changing the way in which her rodents die. PEACE OUT


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## cyclamen (Nov 18, 2006)

ODESSASTUD - i have never once said i freeze ADULT rats
i freeze babies. i have a 19 month old carpet and a baby childreni, i dont think they can somehow eat ADULTS RATS.
and i wouldnt buy anything of you in a million years. 

Thankyou FREDDY !!!!!!!!


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## meshe1969 (Nov 18, 2006)

serpenttongue said:


> Well....it's not like me to join in on these debates, in fact i dont think i ever have! Some of this may be long winded and abit off topic, but it's what's on my mind at the moment.
> 
> I would have thought that the first thing fledgling keepers learn is NOT to feed live prey to snakes, but i see that this practice is still very much alive. That's a damn shame considering that such a practice is not necessary.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your post ST, can I just ask a few ? of you though, please?

We purcahsed two yearling DP approx, 7 months ago. We had previously owned beardies and frogs. So this was our first snake purchase. We presumed that with our inexperience buying yearling's would be better than hatching's.
We contacted a Sydney seller that had advertised on Herptrader and emailed back and forward a lot. We were told that they where eating frozen/thawed hopper mice and live.
We have not had any problems with one, and she now eats frozen/thawed velvet rats.
But the other never ate from day one, we tried everything and after six months took him to a recommended vet. The vet checked everything, no problems, so pretty much said to try live fuzzy mice as force feeding could kill the snake, we then went to a reptile shop and explained our situation and they agreed that we needed to feed live, and stated they have quite a few DP owners that need to feed live. (they also stated in there opinion that a DP is not a beginners snake) . I'm not comfortable with feeding live, and have no idea what I will do in the future when he needs larger food. 
I absolutely consider it as our lack of experience that is causing this problem, but I honestly do not know what else to do There is no one else that I can take my snake to or get advice. So very regrettable we are feeding live at the moment, the other option is to try and sell the snake to a experienced herper, or let it die.

Thankyou for your time. I am feeding live out of pure desperation, and hate/scared doing it.


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## OdessaStud (Nov 18, 2006)

Post removed-infraction issued


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## azza74 (Nov 18, 2006)

OdessaStud said:


> .NO RODENT IVE BRED WILL EVER BE FROZEN ALIVE!!!!! Do your rats a favor and get rid of them and buy frozen feeders I'll give you a 20% discount on my list price and deliver them to your door just to stop the barbaric way that yours are being killed.
> Odie




OdessaStud, if i say i freeze my rats, can i get the same deal  
hey ya cant blame me from trying


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## Tatelina (Nov 19, 2006)

mangoman said:


> *Interlude Music Part II* :shock:



Hahahaha I loved your first one but forgot to comment! Thankyou for your random input! 

Odessa I think its very noble and kind of you to offer such a discount.... Just a shame that the animals loose out on a good deal aswell as someone whos too stubborn to get something nice. (Who doesn't like the same quality good stuff at a cheaper price!?)


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## OdessaStud (Nov 19, 2006)

I recieved an infraction for my comment about Mels practices.I officially appologise to the Mods and the Members of this forum if my comments were out of line.Mel im not sorry for what i said to you !!! I just hope newbies dont follow in your footsteps, and if my infraction saves a rodent or two from being Frozen to death it was worth it!!
Odie

 obviously a waste of time posting the above,other peoples posts get edited Mine get Removed ??? 
looks like its odessa studs turn to be bashed about the forum again, 
So Sorry for careing about the fact that Rodents Are Being Frozen Alive!!!!!


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## Wrasse (Nov 19, 2006)

Odie, I have been watching this thread and am surprised at how this turned out for you. I am sorry that your generous offer got you in trouble.


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## Timotei (Nov 19, 2006)

Yeh, i think fair enuf feed however u lyk, but in the end that is true, the rodents are going to get killed anyways... OdessaStud, how are the frozen feeders that u hav in ur store die ? I'm not taking any sides, ur completely entitled to feel the way u do, just that there does not seem to be a 100% pleasing and safe solution, feed live and ur snake cld get killed, if u want to feed dead u hav to deal with killing the things.


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## Greebo (Nov 19, 2006)

OdessaStud said:


> I recieved an infraction for my comment about Mels practices.I officially appologise to the Mods and the Members of this forum if my comments were out of line.Mel im not sorry for what i said to you !!! I just hope newbies dont follow in your footsteps, and if my infraction saves a rodent or two from being Frozen to death it was worth it!!
> Odie
> 
> obviously a waste of time posting the above,other peoples posts get edited Mine get Removed ???
> ...



You received an infraction for insulting another member. Calling another member names is not a constructive way to get your point across and will rarely get a positive response from the person it is directed at.


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## OdessaStud (Nov 19, 2006)

Timotei thats a fair question you asked I use CO2 gas and will never use anything else.Before a friend of mine got me a proper cylinder i used the viniger and bicarb method, it was basic and very quick but the CO2 gas is my definate prefered method.I timed how long it took from very much alive to the very dead stage and I was amazed when it took under 3 seconds  this time was less the bigger the rat.
Greebo I respect what you are saying 100% and I will verse my opinion with more tact but with all due respect at the time of answering Mels reply to my offer I really didnt care how she took my comment.
Cheers Odie.


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## serpenttongue (Nov 19, 2006)

meshe1969 said:


> Thank you for your post ST, can I just ask a few ? of you though, please?
> 
> We purcahsed two yearling DP approx, 7 months ago. We had previously owned beardies and frogs. So this was our first snake purchase. We presumed that with our inexperience buying yearling's would be better than hatching's.
> We contacted a Sydney seller that had advertised on Herptrader and emailed back and forward a lot. We were told that they where eating frozen/thawed hopper mice and live.
> ...


 
At 1 year of age diamonds should be very established feeders and moving to another collection shouldnt really put them off for too long, especially not the 7 months you've had them. Makes me wonder whether this snake was a problem feeder for it's previous owner, but anyway....

Are you keeping them together or separate? If they're together then this may have something to do with it. It could be a shy snake that's intimidated by others. 

Words that i keep fresh in my mind are "Environment influences behaviour". Wise words indeed and they have got me out of many reptile related problems. Much of the way a snake acts depends on it's immediate environment. You really need to get inside your snakes head and work out whats going on. Usually a few simple changes is all thats needed to get a stubborn feeder feeding. Perhaps a smaller enclosure to live in, branches to perch on, kept in darkness etc. I always keeping youngsters in small containers with newspaper or paper towel as a substrate. They seem to enjoy hiding underneath it rather than using hiding boxes. I keep young diamonds with day temps of 28'c and no heating at night (unless just fed on a pretty cold night) Diamonds need cool nights. They tend to become sluggish with heating offered day and night.

I've always found young diamonds to favour defrosted fuzzy/weaner mice over anything else in captivity. They love mice with a strong urine scent. They tend to be turned off by mice that were frozen in sawdust filled tubs. I wash the mice under warm water and dry them on newspaper. To get non-feeders feeding the dead mouse is left in the enclosure overnight. If its still there in the morning i throw it. I keep doing this until one day it is gone. No healthy diamond wants to starve. Once it's happy and feels safe with it's immediate surrounding it will gladly eat. When someone has a snake that wont eat, the problem is almost always the set-up, not the snakes dislike for the prey offered.

If you have to feed live then use young mice that dont have their sharp teeth or stun them if they do. Feeding live should be the last option. Also try scenting with skinks, chicken down, chicken broth, braining the mouse, offer raw chicken etc etc. Dont force-feed.

Also when you feed it a live mouse offer it a dead one as the first kill is being swallowed. You can usually put the head of the dead mouse into the snakes mouth as the first meal disappears. The snake should gladly start consuming the second meal. After doing this a few times they will except the dead mouse without needing a live one first. If you decide to offer it a dead mouse personally(that is, you introduce the food to the snake on forceps while its active) there is one trick that works well for me to encourage them to except. Firstly i show the mouse to the snake and then slowly pull it back. If the snake follows the mouse then i know i'm onto something. I then gently push the mouse against the snakes snout/chin. If the snake doesnt back off then half the battle is over. I push it against the nose for a few seconds then pull the mouse away. I give the snake a moment to think about it, then push the mouse back against the snakes snout. I do this several times and as long as the snake doesnt back away from this then you've got a 95% chance of it feeding. Just dont give up!!. Anyway, after doing this several times, if the meal isnt excepted i crank it up a notch. This time after pushing the mouse against its snout i dont pull away, instead i nudge the snakes sides with the mouse. This can excite the hell out of them and they sometimes swing around to catch the mouse. I keep repeating this method. I push against the snout, then nudge along the snakes body a few more times. Then i'll just nudge along both sides of the body, up and down, side to side, rather quickly then without giving the snake time to think i push the mouse back against the snakes snout and WHAM!!!!:shock: (occasionally they'll slowly grab the mouse). Then i slowly take a few steps back and watch it eat . Persistance!! This method works well with stubborn feeders and is a great alternative to force-feeding(which makes me shudder).

I agree that diamonds arent a beginners snake, but they are still just as easy to get feeding as other pythons, so i dont think that that's part of the problem.

Good luck!


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## Timotei (Nov 19, 2006)

OdessaStud said:


> Timotei thats a fair question you asked I use CO2 gas and will never use anything else.Before a friend of mine got me a proper cylinder i used the viniger and bicarb method, it was basic and very quick but the CO2 gas is my definate prefered method.I timed how long it took from very much alive to the very dead stage and I was amazed when it took under 3 seconds  this time was less the bigger the rat.
> Greebo I respect what you are saying 100% and I will verse my opinion with more tact but with all due respect at the time of answering Mels reply to my offer I really didnt care how she took my comment.
> Cheers Odie.



Wow, CO2 thats a great idea, definitely the most humane way to kill. Also probably the only poison able to be used without the effects passed onto the python. So wen u say that u used vinegar and bicarb originally, howd u do it ? Did u start the reaction in a bottle then tube the CO2 into the tank or wat ?


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## meshe1969 (Nov 19, 2006)

serpenttongue said:


> At 1 year of age diamonds should be very established feeders and moving to another collection shouldnt really put them off for too long, especially not the 7 months you've had them. Makes me wonder whether this snake was a problem feeder for it's previous owner, but anyway....



He was considerable smaller than the other one..


serpenttongue said:


> Are you keeping them together or separate? If they're together then this may have something to do with it. It could be a shy snake that's intimidated by others.


 Seperate



serpenttongue said:


> Perhaps a smaller enclosure to live in, branches to perch on, kept in darkness etc. I always keeping youngsters in small containers with newspaper or paper towel as a substrate. They seem to enjoy hiding underneath it rather than using hiding boxes. I keep young diamonds with day temps of 28'c and no heating at night (unless just fed on a pretty cold night) Diamonds need cool nights.


We only heat during the day, thermo set to 28. He is in a small plastic container which we have papered around the sides. Newspaper substrate, we had a couple of hides and branches,but have removed them now as he always went under the paper.


serpenttongue said:


> To get non-feeders feeding the dead mouse is left in the enclosure overnight. If its still there in the morning i throw it. I keep doing this until one day it is gone.


 Yep tried this a few times.



serpenttongue said:


> Also try scenting with skinks, chicken down, chicken broth, braining the mouse, offer raw chicken etc etc.


 Skink, is the only thing we haven't tried (the vet suggested this as well) as I couldn't find one, did try rubbing it on the geckos and beardies and all the other stuff.



serpenttongue said:


> Also when you feed it a live mouse offer it a dead one as the first kill is being swallowed. You can usually put the head of the dead mouse into the snakes mouth as the first meal disappears. The snake should gladly start consuming the second meal. After doing this a few times they will except the dead mouse without needing a live one first.


I am hoping to try this once he is healthy and feeding regularly (even on live, he ate the first week we tried and then not for another three weeks, ate again and then not for two weeks, then ate two weeks in a row) only trying weekly at the moment because he is in a bad way and we don't now if he will eat or not.



serpenttongue said:


> If you decide to offer it a dead mouse personally(that is, you introduce the food to the snake on forceps while its active) there is one trick that works well for me to encourage them to except. Firstly i show the mouse to the snake and then slowly pull it back. If the snake follows the mouse then i know i'm onto something. I then gently push the mouse against the snakes snout/chin. If the snake doesnt back off then half the battle is over. I push it against the nose for a few seconds then pull the mouse away. I give the snake a moment to think about it, then push the mouse back against the snakes snout. I do this several times and as long as the snake doesn't back away from this then you've got a 95% chance of it feeding. Just dont give up!!. Anyway, after doing this several times, if the meal isnt excepted i crank it up a notch. This time after pushing the mouse against its snout i dont pull away, instead i nudge the snakes sides with the mouse. This can excite the hell out of them and they sometimes swing around to catch the mouse. I keep repeating this method. I push against the snout, then nudge along the snakes body a few more times. Then i'll just nudge along both sides of the body, up and down, side to side, rather quickly then without giving the snake time to think i push the mouse back against the snakes snout and WHAM!!!!:shock: (occasionally they'll slowly grab the mouse). Then i slowly take a few steps back and watch it eat . Persistance!!


 Tried this a few times as well, but will try it again in the future.




serpenttongue said:


> Good luck!


 Thankyou!! I will not be giving up on getting over to the good side of eating dead!!! lol It just gets a bit disheartening sometimes!!!


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## Recharge (Nov 19, 2006)

Timotei said:


> Wow, CO2 thats a great idea, definitely the most humane way to kill. Also probably the only poison able to be used without the effects passed onto the python. So wen u say that u used vinegar and bicarb originally, howd u do it ? Did u start the reaction in a bottle then tube the CO2 into the tank or wat ?



I personally use a C02 cylinder, @ $120 a year bottle rental and refills are cheap as (my 10kg bottle has been going for a year and still is no where near empty, and I have quit a a large colony, I supply to a couple of people in Bris.

C02 isn't the only gas though, many also use argon apparently, and there's probably other gas thats safe too.

C02 is defiantly the best way it's DAMN quick and painless.

personally, I think that if you can't handle killing your rats (if you breed them) humanely, then you shouldn't be doing it.

and some of you people should REALLY learn how to use a sentence, those lumped up posts are so hard to read :/

and as another hint, if using IE, install IEspell (spell checker), if using firefox download v2.0 it has a built in spell checker)


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## mangoman (Nov 19, 2006)

thanks Tatelina, glad you enjoyed it :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: 

its true we have all been wrapped up in cotton wool, the world "naturally speaking" is a very cruel place and a mans heart is capable of unfathomable atrocities.. but at the end of the day we must care about the things we do, we must be responsible and have a healthy regard and consideration of not only ourselves but all life on this beautiful planet!! 

so in general, i believe, if i myself! were to die and was given a choice on how my death is/was going to occur. would i not choose the most peaceful option? and exhaust every last avenue of thought in this regard?? i think i would, so having this little bit of knowledge i can also apply it to the lesser creatures around me, as it would be in their best interest!! would it not??

I do feel the people who made these ickey videos should suffer the same fate, the same way. simply because they didn't have the animals interests at heart! instead giving the prey a brutally slow and nasty death, not to mention having zero regard for the predator in question either..

summing up i believe if a person really has an animals welfare at heart they will exhaust all options on the preys behalf before continuing. if after that, the animal does have to suffer a little, so be it. at least it had a caring *being* making the decision.

prey or predator everything dies eventually, how would you like to die??? perhaps some soulless person on youtube might help you out??

Im a firm believer in the whack method, and even the co2 method sounds very humane also, as used by OdessaStud,,,I also understand that in some extreme cases feeding live prey may be the only avenue, but let it not be without consideration first!!


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## Timotei (Nov 19, 2006)

Of course we don't have a soul, gee don't be silly, our every action, emotion, thought and connection to other people and the world around us is generated by the chemical reactions in our body. That's why man has always succeeded in making life - it's so easy! 

I do believe that making the people on youtube suffer the same fate as the mouse is a bit harsh (even tho i hav had MANY similar thoughts). I personally believe that we, humans, are of more value than animals, but i do *not* condone the killing or injuring of any animal purely for our entertainment. 

There are arguments for both sides, as one _could_ say that the fact that we wish the mouse to die humanely is like us wishing to gas every antelope or zebra before a lion eats it, so it dies peacefully in its sleep. Let things happen naturally, let nature take its course.

On the other hand, we could say that as soon as man started keeping animals domestically we upset the balance, and so we cannot fully emulate the wild, because it is a completely different situation.


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## Tatelina (Nov 19, 2006)

Australis said:


> No one has a "soul"......................



In your opinion  I have a soul. A bit battered and bruised but still there.


Timotei said:


> There are arguments for both sides, as one could say that the fact that we wish the mouse to die humanely is like us wishing to gas every antelope or zebra before a lion eats it, so it dies peacefully in its sleep. Let things happen naturally, let nature take its course.
> 
> On the other hand, we could say that as soon as man started keeping animals domestically we upset the balance, and so we cannot fully emulate the wild, because it is a completely different situation.


DING DING DING! Exactly! We have upset the balance and our animals are not 'as wild' as they would be if they weren't captive breed, fed, housed etc.
They have a new style of living, so a new style of feeding imo... humanely killed (as as humane as you can manage) dead food.

We don't have control over the antelope or animals out in the wild, as we also don't have control over how people will deal with their own prey and food items. The only thing we can do is let our opinions be heard, and concentrate on what we are doing ourselves, and if we personally have a chance to reduce the suffering of an animal in front of it, do so.

[haha although this can lead into a completely different discussion about mercy killing...and I came across a situation a few weeks ago where my mum was adament that I put a 'bird out of its misery' because a cat had been playing with it for such a long time and now it was bored because the bird was hardly moving... needless to say neither my mum or I could 'do the deed'. ]


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## mangoman (Nov 19, 2006)

yeh mercy killing is a different kettle of fish er or is it????? isnt whacking a rodent mercy killing? since its gonna die anyway but in a more humane way??

hey where did that saying come from "kettle of fish" :shock:


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## Ramsayi (Nov 19, 2006)

How can anyone compare what happens in the wild to what happens in a cage?
Put hunter and hunted in a small box and you will see nature?


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## OdessaStud (Nov 19, 2006)

Ramsayi I agree with you there is no comparison to wild animals and captive animals.We control everything with our captives from temp,to feed, and everything they need.In the wild they catch and kill their own prey,they dont freeze what they catch until it dies or eat what is already dead and cold.In keeping captive animals we the human have adapted their enviorment and their diet to suit ourselves.In doing that we have not been given permission to kill our feeders for our captive snakes in an inhumane way or feed them alive for the sole purpose of entertainment or because thats the easiest way to do it..???There a so many alternatives available now and so many excellent feeder breeders in Australia,that the squimish dont have to deal with killing their own and the feeders are cared for and then killed humanely. JMO
Odie


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## mangoman (Nov 19, 2006)

I agree, in the wild we have no control over animals, but in our own homes we do, and because we are higher beings we can save em a bit of grief in the way they die! theres a significant difference between the two.


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## Jungletrans (Nov 20, 2006)

*Frozen rats*

While I am very sure the rat breedars / sellers on this site do the right thing can we be sure about the others . I often buy frozen from 3 local herp shops and find a lot of the rats have blood on their faces . Dont think their death was all wine and roses .:shock:


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## junglist* (Nov 20, 2006)

ooh geez. That animal lib nazi site is hilarious. Not only do they directly say that being a vegetarian is healthier for you, they also say if you're a vegan you're even healthier. Have they heard of omnivarianism??

Also the bit about not needing animal testing for medicinal development is an absolute lie.


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## slim6y (Nov 20, 2006)

junglist* said:


> ooh geez. That animal lib nazi site is hilarious. Not only do they directly say that being a vegetarian is healthier for you, they also say if you're a vegan you're even healthier. Have they heard of omnivarianism??
> 
> Also the bit about not needing animal testing for medicinal development is an absolute lie.



I haven't read the site - but you're 100% right... a balanced diet consists of fresh meats, veges and macdonalds (neither meat nor vege)...

But the last part... I admit it is wrong using animals for medicinal purposes... But humans wouldbe better subjects... It's the cosmetic ones that rack me off the most. I remember seeing the poor bunny rabbits getting shampoo rubbed in their eyes etc... Was the most unpleasant thing i have seen... But... Through human stupidity we need to find the LD50 for shampoo... just incase someone ingests it in a suicidal manner.

On saying that... the only way the body shop can market products 'not tested on animals' is, and sad as it may seem, because the products had already passed the LD50 tests on pigs, rabbits, monkeys etc.... therefore they no longer need testing... As much as this has NOTHING to do with the topic... we're some 14 pages into the discussion so it didn't seem to matter... but to put it back on topic... Whack ya rats for a happier, healthier dead rat... and don't name them before ya whack em.. .just makes it harder!


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## junglepython2 (Nov 20, 2006)

Jungletrans said:


> While I am very sure the rat breedars / sellers on this site do the right thing can we be sure about the others . I often buy frozen from 3 local herp shops and find a lot of the rats have blood on their faces . Dont think their death was all wine and roses .:shock:


 
They were probably killed using the whack method which is quite acceptable.


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## munkee (Nov 20, 2006)

One point I don't think hasn't been clarified is why freezing toads is okay and rats aren't. 

Toads cannot thermoregulate. As they get colder in the freezer they slow down (response time, pain receptors, breathing etc) they don't shiver to try and keep warm. A rat or any warm blodded animal will sit in the cold and shiver to try and keep warm. If they cannot keep warm enough through shivering they start to get cold and then start to get sleepy and fall asleep/pass out and then die of hypothermia. It is not a fast process though. 

I have kept rats for breeding and used the 'whack to the head' procedure. It is not the nicest way to do it for me but it kills the rats quickly with a minimum of time and fuss. 

Whacking baby rats on the head is even easier than adults as they are far less likely to bite back . The One bite I got from a rats was miles more painful the worst snake bite I got and bled a heck of a lot more too.


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## dellywatts (Nov 20, 2006)

I know of a couple of pet shops in melb that kill their mice and rats by putting them straight into the freezer! I would rather buy my mice with a little bit of blood on them than buy from places that let them slowly freeze to death!
By the way I have been vegetarian for 10 years and I have never had any health issues.


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## junglist* (Nov 20, 2006)

do you take health supplememnts delly?? NOt at all deriding anyone's choiceto be a vego, but to claim it is a healthier way is just a blatant lie. 

On the rats and freezer issue, i think that at the end of the day if you cannot stomach killing the prey item yourself, you really shouldnt be keeping an animal that needs to eat things which you have to kill yourself. Either that or not whinging about feeding live prey.


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## Tatelina (Nov 20, 2006)

munkee said:


> One point I don't think hasn't been clarified is why freezing toads is okay and rats aren't.
> 
> Toads cannot thermoregulate. As they get colder in the freezer they slow down (response time, pain receptors, breathing etc) they don't shiver to try and keep warm. A rat or any warm blodded animal will sit in the cold and shiver to try and keep warm. If they cannot keep warm enough through shivering they start to get cold and then start to get sleepy and fall asleep/pass out and then die of hypothermia. It is not a fast process though.
> 
> ...


Ah some technicaility! Thankyou! I was wondering about that. My impression was that although they shiver and try to stay warm..animals that can thermoregulate get sleepy and pass out and its not painful.... Thats what I always thought up until a while ago. I should test the theory and put myself naked in the snow and see how that hurts I guess if I want to see a comparison.

I'd hurt you too if you were trying to kill me! 
That is one of the reasons I feel abit 'blehk' to whacking...as you cant always get the suprise factor and so the animal can get stressed which in turn leads to not being as a humane death as possible (as well as missing when the animals stressed and trying to get out of your grip ect...)


Just had a thought.. what kind of noise do rodents make when they are being whacked? 
=o
Not a very pleasant one I would assume.


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## Timotei (Nov 20, 2006)

Nahuh, thats the duracell bunny, the energizer guy just never says die, which is silly cos there are plenty of things that die without actually _*saying*_ the word "die". 

As for vegetarianism, i think yes you can be a vegetarian, but it's _why_ you're a vegetarian. Some people it's health issues in which they cannot eat meat, that's fair enuf, others say that they just don't like the taste, that's also fair enuf.

IF YOU SAY that you are vegetarian because you feel sorry for the animals then I'm sorry but i laugh in your face. I know, everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs, but seriously, animals are on earth for us to eat. *HEY* i've got a brilliant idea! let's all go find some lions, and some tigers, in fact, ANYTHING that eats meat, and give them a counselling session on how you can be just as healthy without doing it. Then, if the carnivores take your advice and start eating plants, they will all become terribly malnourished and die, then the populations of the herbivores will just SKYrocket, and destroy ALL the plants, then the vegos will hav nothing more to eat, because the damn zebras ate them all.

We are biologically part of the food web, and even though our numbers are drastically out of proportion, we play a part in maintaining the ecology in a stable situation. The fact is, that cow is gonna be killed, and is gonna be sitting in ur local supermarket on styrofoam trays, and as much as you refuse to eat him, he will still be there. Don't make his death be in vain, eat that cow.

"Red meat. We were _made_ to eat it."


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## dellywatts (Nov 20, 2006)

junglist* said:


> do you take health supplememnts delly?? NOt at all deriding anyone's choiceto be a vego, but to claim it is a healthier way is just a blatant lie.
> 
> On the rats and freezer issue, i think that at the end of the day if you cannot stomach killing the prey item yourself, you really shouldnt be keeping an animal that needs to eat things which you have to kill yourself. Either that or not whinging about feeding live prey.



I never said it was a healthier way. I said that I am healthy. And no i don't take supplements. I have never had to. I get all i need from fruit and vegetables.

I could never personally kill the mice and rats for my snake. That's what the reptile supply stores are for. You can't tell me that everyone that has a snake kills the food for them themselves. And feeding live prey is illegal!


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## Timotei (Nov 20, 2006)

Live _vertebrate_ prey... suggesting that you cld technically remove the spinal cord of your rats and mice and still feed them....? Taboo ?


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## Tsidasa (Nov 20, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> Ah some technicaility! Thankyou! I was wondering about that. My impression was that although they shiver and try to stay warm..animals that can thermoregulate get sleepy and pass out and its not painful.... Thats what I always thought up until a while ago. I should test the theory and put myself naked in the snow and see how that hurts I guess if I want to see a comparison.
> 
> I'd hurt you too if you were trying to kill me!
> That is one of the reasons I feel abit 'blehk' to whacking...as you cant always get the suprise factor and so the animal can get stressed which in turn leads to not being as a humane death as possible (as well as missing when the animals stressed and trying to get out of your grip ect...)
> ...


 
I hate the snow, it's cold and it makes everything hurt =( i definately wouldn't wanna go that way. However if you have just come out of a hot tub you have a good ten minutes of starkers time before the cold sets in :lol:


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## Wrasse (Nov 20, 2006)

No noise at all.


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## slim6y (Nov 20, 2006)

I like it how some people say if you can't handle killing the prey items then don't keep a snake. 

How many of you keep cats and dogs? Did you kill phar lap for your doggie? 

The point is... We do detract ourselves from our very own dinner.... we don't want to see what is killed for our plate (as a whole)... Some people get a thrill out of the power of a snake and watching it kill its prey. And for the whole, it is healthy for the snake to get its natural instincts going.

But for the sake of a 'normal' snake in captivity, that feeds well on frozzies, then why take it to the extreme and feed it a livie? The whole idea of feeding live seems to be a little neglectful of the whole situation... for a snake that is... But it is obviously acceptable, and funnily enough, to feed your frogs on crickets and roaches... 

Why do we not see them as living? well the way I see it is - we do... But the speed at which they're consumed is overwhelmingly fast and little or no suffering would be had by the insect.

On the other hand, many pesticides which kill our insects causes them to suffer unduly... 

I don't exactly know where i am heading with this particular thread... but - anything in a frozen (ie freezer) including reptiles, is not a helathy alternative to whacking them on the head. Cane toads and the like still should be put out of their misery as quickly as possible. 

The quicker people realise and do this, the better!


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## munkee (Nov 20, 2006)

Tatelina. Funny thing is he bit me when I picked him up to clean him out!! 

If you whack em right, they make no noise at all. when you stuff it (and to begin with you do once or twice) they go to quote someone earlier in the thread 'eeeeeek!'.

The animals will fall sleepy and go to sleep but not before the body does everything possible to stay alive. Things like withdrawing blood flow from extremities (fingers, toes and limbs) to keep the vital organs warm. This means frostbite in toes and sometimes limbs before the falling asleep part. 

There is no perfect way to kill prey items. I am not too bothered as to the suffering of the rodent/rabbit (better than live feeding IMO, as it is safer for the snake). But a quick kill prior to freezing allows good packaging and a better condition food item for your pet.


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## Tatelina (Nov 21, 2006)

slim6y said:


> But for the sake of a 'normal' snake in captivity, that feeds well on frozzies, then why take it to the extreme and feed it a livie? The whole idea of feeding live seems to be a little neglectful of the whole situation... for a snake that is... But it is obviously acceptable, and funnily enough, to feed your frogs on crickets and roaches...
> 
> Why do we not see them as living? well the way I see it is - we do... But the speed at which they're consumed is overwhelmingly fast and little or no suffering would be had by the insect.
> 
> On the other hand, many pesticides which kill our insects causes them to suffer unduly...


Hey are you trying to start a duracell thread on feeding live insects?? Geez..  But most insects are eaten and die in about 0.4seconds anyway..unlike the rodents who at times take full minutes to die (when fed live).




mangoman said:


> um on the subject of cane toads!
> 
> *Adult viewing, language warning!*
> 
> ...



hahaha thats funny. Thanks for that.


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## slim6y (Nov 21, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> Hey are you trying to start a duracell thread on feeding live insects?? Geez..  But most insects are eaten and die in about 0.4seconds anyway..unlike the rodents who at times take full minutes to die (when fed live).



hehe... i believe that was my point exactly... Insects don't even suffer!!! Anyways... what's with a duracell?


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## Reptilian (Nov 21, 2006)

No offence people, but the thread is about HUMANELY KILLING FOOD..........whichever way you look at it, ask yourself this...Is killing anything, in any different way evr HUMANE??? NO...but animals need to eat, and if we feed our herps live or dead food, WE are still KILLING...as i said, animals need food for survival, so what else can ya do? I WILL feed my snake live food occasionally, just as i feed my beardies live insects, and yes i will kill the mice however i want, i dont care what you all think because the bottom line is MY HERPS NEED TO EAT....the food is still going to die whichever method you use...

@ APL and MEL, i think the freezer technique is a good one if you cant bring yourself to knock it out...


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## slim6y (Nov 21, 2006)

Reptilian said:


> No offence people, but the thread is about HUMANELY KILLING FOOD..........whichever way you look at it, ask yourself this...Is killing anything, in any different way evr HUMANE??? NO...but animals need to eat, and if we feed our herps live or dead food, WE are still KILLING...as i said, animals need food for survival, so what else can ya do? I WILL feed my snake live food occasionally, just as i feed my beardies live insects, and yes i will kill the mice however i want, i dont care what you all think because the bottom line is MY HERPS NEED TO EAT....the food is still going to die whichever method you use...
> 
> @ APL and MEL, i think the freezer technique is a good one if you cant bring yourself to knock it out...



Why do you think it's good to kill an animal by freezing them to death? Can you elaborate?


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## Hickson (Nov 21, 2006)

*Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979 *

*5 Cruelty to animals*

(1) A person shall not commit an act of cruelty upon an animal.
(2) A person in charge of an animal shall not authorise the commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal.
(3) A person in charge of an animal shall not fail at any time:
(a) to exercise reasonable care, control or supervision of an animal to prevent the commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal,
(b) where pain is being inflicted upon the animal, to take such reasonable steps as are necessary to alleviate the pain, or
(c) where it is necessary for the animal to be provided with veterinary treatment, whether or not over a period of time, to provide it with that treatment.

Maximum penalty: 250 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 50 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both, in the case of an individual.


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## Reptilian (Nov 21, 2006)

slim6y said:


> Why do you think it's good to kill an animal by freezing them to death? Can you elaborate?



I did explain, i said "IF YOU CANT BRING YOURSELF TO KNOCK IT OVER THE HEAD"

BUT as i did try to say "KILLING OF ANY ANIMALS IS NOT HUMANE" but "IT IS THE INTEREST OF OUR HERPS, THAT THEY MUST EAT"


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## Tatelina (Nov 21, 2006)

slim6y said:


> Anyways, sorry for prematurely texting in return... i did think it was me... but now I feel dissapointed because now you don't think I am young anymore... well, atleast older than 16


Geez! You're so young and immature!  Feel better?




Hix said:


> *Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979 *
> 
> *5 Cruelty to animals*
> 
> ...


There we go! Explained in legal terms through text.
Hey Hix how would you kill your food if you bred them?


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## slim6y (Nov 21, 2006)

Reptilian said:


> I did explain, i said "IF YOU CANT BRING YOURSELF TO KNOCK IT OVER THE HEAD"
> 
> BUT as i did try to say "KILLING OF ANY ANIMALS IS NOT HUMANE" but "IT IS THE INTEREST OF OUR HERPS, THAT THEY MUST EAT"



Sorry Reptilian, i just didn't buy that as a justification for freezing rodents - because you can't bring yourself to whack it... 

Different league, but what if you can't bring yourself to change your babies nappies? I hated doing that - it was yucky... but you know, i did it... It was a poor example - but the idea is the same...

Ok... So some people are squeemish, that's acceptable - but what is not acceptable, and is in fact punishable by law, is the treatment of animals being killed in a manner that is considered cruel. MINIMISING pain (and anxiety) is noted in Hix's post earlier.

Therefore I don't think anyone can not justify fairly the use of a freezer to kill a mammal for food because you're unable to knock it on the head....

Note: Reptilian - this is not a dig at you, or anyone - it's MY idea and the way I see the scripture. As the idea it's ok to kill by freezing is your idea - but apparently not one held by the law or many of the people on this site...


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## Reptilian (Nov 21, 2006)

Thats fair enough slim, and im not takin it as a personal dig...what im merely trying to make the point of is:

Wheather or not you minimise pain, you/we are still MURDERING defenceless animals for the sake of wanting to keep herps...are you saying that if i was a cannibal that it would be fine for me to murder other humans if i did so by minimsing pain???


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## slim6y (Nov 21, 2006)

Reptilian said:


> Thats fair enough slim, and im not takin it as a personal dig...what im merely trying to make the point of is:
> 
> Wheather or not you minimise pain, you/we are still MURDERING defenceless animals for the sake of wanting to keep herps...are you saying that if i was a cannibal that it would be fine for me to murder other humans if i did so by minimsing pain???



hehe... thanks for not taking it personal...

Ok - here's my wrap on this...

1) We do kill, not murder, animals for our snakes - either directly or indirectly... as we do for our dinner plates, our cats, our dogs etc... This is done within certian and very strict guidelines that minimises pain and suffering. 

2) If I was to be eaten because of cannibalism or by another animal... I would prefer it to be quick and painless than long and suffering. That's absolutely correct!

However - we have left the day and age where clubbing animals to death, spearing them or what ever method we used - now we're sophisticated with stunning and slaughtering... It's all a bit much - but these animals die with minimal pain - and that is important... 

Sorry - but I have to go now - would love to write more... have a nice die


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Hmm, just seems lyk we're saying the same thing. Basically, we've established that CO2 is the most humane to kill, and Reptilian, I agree, we are going to kill the animal, but wouldn't it be better to do it as quick and painless as possible ? As Slim6y sed.

Lol, i think the example of *cannibalism* is a touch extreme, seeing as we are most definitely higher beings than other animals, and I will not be swayed in this belief. A better comparison would hav been, killing cows, we're going to kill them anyway, shouldnt it be quickly and painlessly ? The answer is yes, altho it's not always done that way, as Troy Mclure says in the simpsons:

"From there they go on to the killing floor. Oh don't let the name fool you, Billy, it's not realy a floor, more of a metal grate where the chunks of meat are ground up and slide through."

But all the same, this thread has gone on too long, and we've sed all this before, i think it's about time it finished! (Sorry to try and claim the last say )


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## moosenoose (Nov 22, 2006)

Jungletrans said:


> i HAVE A TINY LITTLE RACK WITH HANDCUFFS TO HOLD THEM STILL WHILE I SLOWLY WHIP THEM TO DEATH . THE HARD BITS ARE GETTING THE LITTLE LEATHER BOOTS ON THEM AND GETING THE SMILES OFF THEIR FACES SO THE SNAKES DONT THINK THEY ARE BEING LAUGHED AT . THAT MIGHT GIVE THEM A COMPLEX AND WOULD BE REALY CRUEL .



I'm a little more subtle than you are, I tend to leave little obstacles lying around at the bottom of their ramps etc The other thing I tend to do is remove the stickers from rat-head height around the glass of their enclosure! There is no death more swift than that of walking through the equivelant of a two-storey glass wall!  Thank God there is no such thing as ROH&S! (Rodent Occupational Health & Safety) at my place!! All the fuss I've read!!!.....really!!!! ppffffttt!


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

If I had to kill Phar Lap to feed my dog I wouldn't do it, but if I did keep a dopey dog, YES I would kill things for it to eat if I had to. CO2 is starving the rodent of oxygen, stick YOUR head in a plastic bag for a minute or 2 and tell me thats not painfull!!!!! This is really ridiculous, If you cant' deal with snakes eating, DON'T KEEP THEM!!!! A healthy snake will kill it's prey just as quick as CO2. Yes it does hurt, but the snake soon alleviates the rodents pain by killing it LOL. Just deal with it. Freezing them is CRUEL, whacking them on the head is about the quickest way and least painful. CO2 is what most people prefer, that's their choice. My choice is to let the snake do it. How you do it is your choice. I am not picking a fight as each to their own!!!! What I am saying is there is no point in jumping up and down about it. Thats about all really, deal with it and get on with our lives. Just keep our herps healthy!!!!!


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh that was from me, ADAM. Not Teni.


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## Australis (Nov 22, 2006)

Adandiluvsmyreptiles said:


> If I had to kill Phar Lap to feed my dog I wouldn't do it, but if I did keep a dopey dog, YES I would kill things for it to eat if I had to. CO2 is starving the rodent of oxygen, stick YOUR head in a plastic bag for a minute or 2 and tell me thats not painfull!!!!! This is really ridiculous, If you cant' deal with snakes eating, DON'T KEEP THEM!!!! A healthy snake will kill it's prey just as quick as CO2. Yes it does hurt, but the snake soon alleviates the rodents pain by killing it LOL. Just deal with it. Freezing them is CRUEL, whacking them on the head is about the quickest way and least painful. CO2 is what most people prefer, that's their choice. My choice is to let the snake do it. How you do it is your choice. I am not picking a fight as each to their own!!!! What I am saying is there is no point in jumping up and down about it. Thats about all really, deal with it and get on with our lives. Just keep our herps healthy!!!!!



Feeding live is taking a risk for your herps health........


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

It is if you don't sit there and supervise. Teeth can always be trimmed back....


Ad


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Adandiluvsmyreptiles said:


> If I had to kill Phar Lap to feed my dog I wouldn't do it, but if I did keep a dopey dog, YES I would kill things for it to eat if I had to. CO2 is starving the rodent of oxygen, stick YOUR head in a plastic bag for a minute or 2 and tell me thats not painfull!!!!! This is really ridiculous, If you cant' deal with snakes eating, DON'T KEEP THEM!!!! A healthy snake will kill it's prey just as quick as CO2. Yes it does hurt, but the snake soon alleviates the rodents pain by killing it LOL. Just deal with it. Freezing them is CRUEL, whacking them on the head is about the quickest way and least painful. CO2 is what most people prefer, that's their choice. My choice is to let the snake do it. How you do it is your choice. I am not picking a fight as each to their own!!!! What I am saying is there is no point in jumping up and down about it. Thats about all really, deal with it and get on with our lives. Just keep our herps healthy!!!!!



OMG stop posting the same stuff in here, no one wants to hear about how absolutely heartless you are. We have already been over all this stuff for CRYING OUT LOUD, FOR LACK OF APPROPRIATELY EXPLETIVE WORDS. You shldnt be allowed to keep a snake, feeding live is DANGEROUS. We have BEEN OVER THIS ALREADY. Just stop posting wat you believe to be insightful commentaries they're just regurgitated garbage which shows a complete lack of maturity.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

LOL. I don't keep a snake...i keep several. Am i the only one on this site that admits to feeding live? At least i don't freeze the rodents to death...they die in a natural way. When you are the boss of this website and the god of how reptiles should be kept i'll keep my opinions to myself. Until then - i'll post my opinions as you post yours. Hope you're having a great night.


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Omg, you know feeding live vertebrate prey is illegal rite ?


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

Yep, read it all. Did i propose to submit new ideas? Stop yelling - you'll give urself a headache.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

And for the record....i only own one snake that i feed live to, until he can be persuaded to do otherwise and i don't see anything wrong with it. The rest are happy to have freshly donked on the head rodents.


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Sorry, edited my post wen i saw that u hadnt sed wat i thought u had, oops, lol.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

It isn't illegal when the snake won't take it any other way... OMG didn't u know that? U shouldn't have a snake!


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Hehe, i don't  Nah i wasnt trying to be nasty, sorry if it came across that way, the gold coast obviously has different regs to over here in WA, havnt heard that one before, tho, that you're allowed to if they don't take it any other way. That sort of snake shldnt be a pet to begin with, altho you can't realy control that can you. All for captive breeding over wild-caught.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

And it isn't actually illegal at all....


Code of Practice
36.3 "Wild pythons will usually kill their prey, however it is prefereable to feed freshly killed prey to captive pythons, as live prey have the capacity to injure, mutilate or even kill captive snakes"


So where does it say it is illegal?
For christ's sakes - stop proclaiming it to be illegal when you don't know poo about it.

Teni


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

Not sure on the laws in WA...only in QLD which is where i am and that's all i care about.


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Well aren't u an open-minded and accepting individual  I can see that trying to explain things to you will gain nothing, rigidity can be helpful in interrogation, but not in debates where both sides hope to learn something. Anyway enough preaching, it's illegal in WA, illegal in NSW from wat i've heard, i think to be sure i would check with your council on those laws. The point isn't the letter of the law, there are reasons it exists, not all of which i know, but one of them is that it is dangerous. As already sed in this thread, live feeding is NOT an accurate emulation of the wild, as much as you will argue against it.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

What are you trying to explain to me? I haven't read anywhere in any of your threads that you have been trying to explain something to me...

I don't need to check with the laws. I know them. I keep reptiles and i am obliged to know and follow the guidelines.

I never said live feeding was an accurate emulation of the wild - but it is closer to nature than feeding frozen/thawed or freshly killed. 

There is a risk to the snake yes - but if the snake refuses to eat any other way than live what are you to do? Force feed it or "assist" feed it which either way is more stressful than letting it do it's own thing which is hunt and kill?

Dude, i've been keeping reptiles for a long time and can argue my opinion for a long time. I am not in a debate to learn things LOL. I'm here to give my opinion and the facts...didn't know i was debating. I was merely defending being told that i shouldn't own a snake because i feed live - which is legal here.

I have had alot of dealing with queensland parks and wildlife and the RSPCA. I know what it's all about, I know my rights and obligations as a reptile and rodent keeper - hell, even just as a general pet owner.

What do u want to pick on now?


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

I'm abiding by the law and doing the right thing by my herps. None of my herps have ever been injured by my doings (intentional or unintentional). My herps have a great life ... as good as it can get when u are in captive rather than in the wild so just let me have my opinions and keep doing things the way i do them which works best for me and my animals. When i do something illegal or if i allow any of my pets to be harmed in anyway well then u can blast me - until then - back off cause you hace no idea what you're talking about and u have no right whatsoever to tell me i shouldn't own a snake.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 22, 2006)

Anyway, i'm going to bed. When u think of something better to say - get back to me.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 22, 2006)

I think that a lot of people (especially new keepers) do not realize how rare it is for a snake to receive an injury from live prey. In the past I have fed thousands of live rodents to reptiles and have never ever seen an injury because of it. Clearly snakes are very capable predators. If done sensibly the risk of injury is very rare.
This is not to say that I don’t prefer to feed dead where possible and indeed promote this practice for several reasons.


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## Timotei (Nov 22, 2006)

Adandiluvsmyreptiles:
Dude, this is not some kind of shut-down contest. I am not sitting here thinking about how i can get at you, i don't even know you, you don't even know me. Basically, i did not know that it was legal to feed live in QLD, i believe you, but my only point was that there is a reason why some states hav it as illegal.

Debate, argument, hissy-fit, watever you want to call it it's a dispute that can either be resolved maturely or can go majorly out of proportion. I personally try and keep myself open to people's reasoning, and find myself often leaving with a new perspective.

It's obvious that my comment about you not being able to keep a snake struck a nerve, so i'll steer well clear of that. I sed it because your original argument was, quite frankly, pretty much wat we had dealt with already, and you were telling ppl that if they cannot bare to kill their food, they shldnt keep a snake.

I see now that at the bottom of your post you sed that you did not want to pick a fight, neither did i, sometimes i suppose that happens inadvertently, and adding "no offence" to the end of something lyk, "ur fat" rarely serves to anything (just a bit of an abstract example lol). Just got to be careful wat sort of comments you throw around here, that goes for me as well, as you never no who you're gonna hit, especially seeing as there are so many people here of so many different beliefs. You cannot afford to be too controversial.


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## Rennie (Nov 22, 2006)

I have to laugh a little at this thread, not because I find the subject matter amusing, but because you're just going around in circles, there was a similar thread nearly a year back when I first joined this place (it only made it to a few pages though). I too jumped on and said that I froze live food items, got attacked and defended myself by saying that I had seen a pet shop do it to adult rats. Long story short, I had a think about it, changed over to gassing (and buying most of my rodents pre-frozen) and even thanked people for educating me.

I think a few people here need to realise that there will always be people who do the wrong thing (whether from ignorance like me, laziness, they just don't care or even enjoyment) you can try to educate them but at the end of the day, some people will do what they want anyway, as much as you hate it, and there's nothing you can do for their animals short of going around to their house and gassing the yourself. By all means educate them of the slow and excruciatingly painful torture the animals go through, but getting personal won't do any good.

Also, to those who do freeze live, why publicly promote it as a good alternative. Just do it quietly at home if you really have to. But telling people on an animal website that its alright is naturally going to stir some of the animal lovers up. You're asking for all the "attacks" you get if you ask me, just like I did.

Unfortunately, this thread is now so long, no-one is likely to read this :lol:


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## Hickson (Nov 22, 2006)

Tatelina said:


> Hey Hix how would you kill your food if you bred them?



Either CO2 or cervical dislocation. Probably CO2.


As has been mentioned, this thread has been going on for a long time. Everyone has expressed their opinions (and in many cases defended said opinions) so we know where everybody stands. Hopefully, this thread will have provided many people - including newbies - much to ponder on.

It appears there is nothing new to be added to the arguments, and as Tatelina's question has been well and truly answered, I'm now closing this thread.



Hix


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