# What I have and what I can do? Housing beardies



## Shoogs (Dec 5, 2013)

Hi I'm a new member to the site although I have been on it many times.
Hands down I want to know if I can house two bearded dragons together, I have done my research on this and asked pet store owners however I continue to receive different responses.

I will have a URS double large tank. 120x47x60cm - 48x18x24inch
which is 90 gallons, more than double the space for one Adult Beardie.
There will only be 1 heat lamp however a number of different basking spots. Plenty of decorations to hide in or on top of.
As it is a glass tank I am trying to minimise stress by adding a back rock wall and covering on the sides so they feel more secure.

Right now I have 1 juvenile Beardie, suspected to be a male which is currently in a 40 gallon tank. I hope to buy a new bearded dragon, same age, and introduce both of them to the new tank at the same time, I assume this will be better instead of introducing a new Beardie to my Beardies tank already known as his home.

I have read you should never house two MALE Beardies together, but then some say if you can but your tank must be large enough so they can isolate themselves in different areas. Female and Male are ok until breeding times and Female and Female are even better off. Although like I said I am suspecting one male already and I want to know if the new guy turns out to be a male should I be prepared for them to try to kill eachother.

Thanks
-Jake


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## hoppy (Dec 5, 2013)

iv never owned beardies but in my opinion better to be safe than sorry. just house them separately just to be safe.
im pretty sure that they are solitary animals anyway. but as I said im no expert so wait and see what others have to say.


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## Shoogs (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks Hoppy, like I said there are many people saying pretty much the same as you, then there's others that are in the scenario I want and say differently.


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## Rlpreston (Dec 5, 2013)

You need to weigh it up for yourself.

Have some people kept beardies together and had no problems so far? Sure

Have some people housed them together and ended up with injuries, vet bills, deaths etc? Absolutely.

I know which way I would choose but you need to decide yourself if the risk is worth it.


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## Shoogs (Dec 5, 2013)

Mhm, obviously as you said there has been many fatal results of housing two together and then there have been many successful results, I think it may be worth the try, they will be monitored fairly closely for any dominant signs, if worse comes to worse I will have two males that will be housed separately.


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## OldestMagician (Dec 5, 2013)

Is it true that one laying on top of the other is actually a sign of dominance? 

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## Shoogs (Dec 5, 2013)

Yes, as much as I've researched anyways it's a sign of dominance not like cute family huddling


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## PythonLegs (Dec 5, 2013)

So..100% safe sperate.

Risk of injury or death together.

and you're going with together. Sigh.


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## saintanger (Dec 5, 2013)

if you get another dragon get a female of the same size since yours is a male, 2 males in the one enclosure is riskier than 2 females or a male/ female.

quarantine the new one first this will give you time to watch and learn their personalities, once quarantine is over place both dragons in neutral territory e.g. lounge room floor. watch them closely, see how they interact. if a fight breaks out then don't house them together. if they get along then house them together but watch them closely for the first few weeks. always have a spare enclosure or tub just in case they don't get along and need to be separated. if both dragons are dominant then you will most likely have a problem.

always be aware of the risks involved.

i do house dragons together and have for years, i also breed them. i have a large enclosure with 4 dragons housed together 3 females and 1 male. i have never had a fight or any injury to any of them.

now this will probably stir up some people but i also house 2 older males together aged 6 and 7 years old and have for a few years now. wen i first introduced them into the same enclosure my dominant male did have a go at the new male but caused no damage, male number 2 is very quiet and submissive. they have never had a fight since, they bask together and eat out of the same bowl at the same time. 

i believe from my experience housing dragons together successfully has a lot to do with their personality.

i know beardies are solitary dragons but wen they come across another dragon in the wild they don't always fight.


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## Shoogs (Dec 5, 2013)

+Python Legs
Your saying it so directly, I know that you say "risk" but with that third line it's basically saying I've picked the dumbest choice and I'm so ignorant that I'm going to let one kill or severely injure the other so I can learn, not at all.

Like I said above they are both juveniles, in the case that they are both males I will try to create a peaceful non-dominant relationship but if one of them show signs of stress, let alone even attacking, I will take him out.
Once again they will be monitored, especially that first week, and even after months of all going well they will continue to be monitored enough. Feeding is a no-brainer, I feed my current Beardie in a separate 20 gallon now, no reason I will feed em' together.

I think you should really open your mind to things, even though there is risk or a high percentage of something not turning out right doesn't mean it can't be successful at all and shouldn't be attempted.

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+saintanger
Thank you for the comment, its nice to have information from someone who actually has multiple experiences with the given topic instead of going about the "rules". 
I will do as you have said above, hopefully all turns out well and I'll let you know if its a success.
Thank you!


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## dragonlover1 (Dec 5, 2013)

you mention having a 120x47x60 and it being more than double the size for 1 beardie,no it's not! it is the size for only 1 (central )beardie.If you want to keep more than 1 beardie you need a larger enclosure unless you have pygmy beardies which require less space and are a little more sociable than centrals.


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## Stevo2 (Dec 5, 2013)

You need to ask yourself a simple question - are you trying to house 2 together for your benefit or theirs? I have studied Easterns in the wild and the males rarely basked within 20 metres of one another. Do what is best for the lizard and be responsible for their welfare.


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## ReptileMad_98 (Dec 5, 2013)

iv'e kept two male beardies in the same 4 foot enclosure for a year and a half now, they've known eqchother from birth with makes it easier. it depends on the personality of the dragon, there all different.


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## andynic07 (Dec 6, 2013)

saintanger said:


> if you get another dragon get a female of the same size since yours is a male, 2 males in the one enclosure is riskier than 2 females or a male/ female.
> 
> quarantine the new one first this will give you time to watch and learn their personalities, once quarantine is over place both dragons in neutral territory e.g. lounge room floor. watch them closely, see how they interact. if a fight breaks out then don't house them together. if they get along then house them together but watch them closely for the first few weeks. always have a spare enclosure or tub just in case they don't get along and need to be separated. if both dragons are dominant then you will most likely have a problem.
> 
> ...


Would it not be best to keep an eye on them forever rather than the first few weeks? I have read quite a few stories that start with I have kept my two bear dies together successfully for months or years and end with one bit the others toes or feet off. To me it is something that can be done but the only benefit is for the keeper , either they like seeing two together or it takes up less room or it is easier and usually someone like the OP will already have in their head what they want to do but would like someone to back up their thoughts on a forum before actually doing it. I am not putting anyone down for making that decision as we all only keep reptiles for our own pleasure and not for the welfare of the animal.


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## Chris1 (Dec 6, 2013)

While it may work due to one animal being really submissive, the submissive animal would be happier housed alone rather than with a dominating cage mate.
The dominating cage mate would probably be happy whether or not it had a cage mate to dominate.


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## saintanger (Dec 6, 2013)

andy, wen keeping dragons together you will always have to keep an eye on them and watch their behaviour towards each other but its the first few weeks that will tell you whether or not one dragon is to dominate and it wont work.
things do change, e.g they have been housed since they were babies then they start fighting and its 2 males or after a few years one decides it wants to attack the other for unknown reasons to us and you have to separate. 

some times wen feeding a dragon may accidentaly bite another dragon because the meal worm was clawing on the other dragons foot, the owner comes home and thinks there has been a fight, not knowing it was not intended.

chris at first i did house my older boys on their own, the dominant one does not pick on the submissive one. and the submissive one is actually eating more and more active since being house with another beardie.


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## kitten_pheonix (Dec 6, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> hopefully all turns out well and I'll let you know if its a success.
> Thank you!



Kind of like saying lets leave our kids near the pool unattended and hope they don't drown. 
Your willing to risk an animal in your care being injured just because you want to and hope they get along? 
If you were forced into a small room with someone that has the ability and notion to bite your toes off, dominate you and potentially kill you, would you say you are having a good quality of life? Mind you this is only happening to see if it is a success for someone that cant make sure said potentially aggressive person cant harm you 24/7


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## andynic07 (Dec 6, 2013)

kitten_pheonix said:


> Kind of like saying lets leave our kids near the pool unattended and hope they don't drown.
> Your willing to risk an animal in your care being injured just because you want to and hope they get along?
> If you were forced into a small room with someone that has the ability and notion to bite your toes off, dominate you and potentially kill you, would you say you are having a good quality of life? Mind you this is only happening to see if it is a success for someone that cant make sure said potentially aggressive person cant harm you 24/7



Some people pay good money to be dominated and beaten by someone else.


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## Cypher69 (Dec 6, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> +Python Legs
> in the case that they are both males I will try to create a peaceful non-dominant relationship but if one of them show signs of stress, let alone even attacking, I will take him out.
> Once again they will be monitored, especially that first week, and even after months of all going well they will continue to be monitored enough.



How exactly does one create "a peaceful non-dominant relationship" amongst reptiles?
And as far as monitoring goes...are you talking 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?


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## Shoogs (Dec 6, 2013)

+dragonlover1
I'm almost certain Im correct, a 40 gallon is the minimum size for an Adult Beardie, although it is the minimum its also the regular for Beardie owners, anyways a 40 gallon is generally 36x18x16inch which is 90x45x40cm and a 90 gallon is 48x18x24inch which is 120x45x60cm.
I've checked the charts for the third time now and am sure you have it wrong.

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+kitten_pheonix
Your argument is invalid, your implying the premise that I wont be watching these beardies at all, lets understand my scenario, I will be on holidays so nothing to occupy my time, the tank is right above my tv unit which is 2 metres from where I am at least 80% of my day. These "kids" wont be unattended, I wont just be in another room waiting for trouble.
Sheesh


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## MesseNoire (Dec 6, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> +dragonlover1
> I'm almost certain Im correct, a 40 gallon is the minimum size for an Adult Beardie, although it is the minimum its also the regular for Beardie owners, anyways a 40 gallon is generally 36x18x16inch which is 90x45x40cm and a 90 gallon is 48x18x24inch which is 120x45x60cm.
> I've checked the charts for the third time now and am sure you have it wrong.
> 
> ...



How long are you on holidays for?
And what about when you're not on holidays?
Do you think that just because you will keep an eye them for a while that they will always be ok?
You could watch them 24/7 for months but all it takes is 5 minutes for the damage to be done.
You're inexperienced. This is simply a bad idea for you as you have absolutely no clue.


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## Shoogs (Dec 6, 2013)

+Stevo2
Answering that question, rather both, mainly yes its for my benefit, to more efficiently using energy at the same time as having a loving pet (Favourite Lizard). What first got me thinking of a second Beardie was being able to compare the behaviours, I want to experience the ins and outs of the reptile industry all together as I am lined up for a job handling reptiles and I'd rather have first hand knowledge to provide to customers rather then something I've seen on the internet.
Secondly I have always been a fan of letting nature happen (sex), I grew up with a female dog, Tambo, and always felt so sad that she had never had any experience with a male, Mum n Dad de-sexed her young and I would always question them why they choose not to let her have pups, they would always say because she'll probably eat them or something ridiculous. Anyways yeah at no way would I like to have two males, I would like a female as the others companion, then perhaps have to house many of the hatchings.


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## MesseNoire (Dec 6, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> +Stevo2
> Answering that question, rather both, mainly yes its for my benefit, to more efficiently using energy at the same time as having a loving pet (Favourite Lizard). What first got me thinking of a second Beardie was being able to compare the behaviours, I want to experience the ins and outs of the reptile industry all together as I am lined up for a job handling reptiles and I'd rather have first hand knowledge to provide to customers rather then something I've seen on the internet.
> Secondly I have always been a fan of letting nature happen (sex), I grew up with a female dog, Tambo, and always felt so sad that she had never had any experience with a male, Mum n Dad de-sexed her young and I would always question them why they choose not to let her have pups, they would always say because she'll probably eat them or something ridiculous. Anyways yeah at no way would I like to have two males, I would like a female as the others companion, then perhaps have to house many of the hatchings.



BINGO! It's only for your benefit. What benefit will either of the beardies have housed together? "Companionship"? They have no concept of that. They mate as a matter of survival not because they enjoy it.......


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## kitten_pheonix (Dec 6, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> +kitten_pheonix
> Your argument is invalid, your implying the premise that I wont be watching these beardies at all, lets understand my scenario, I will be on holidays so nothing to occupy my time, the tank is right above my tv unit which is 2 metres from where I am at least 80% of my day. These "kids" wont be unattended, I wont just be in another room waiting for trouble.
> Sheesh



No I am Implying you cannot watch them 24/7 or grantee there safety housing them together. Plenty of people have had first hand experience with housing 2 together then them ending up injured. You are ignoring them because you want to give it a go regardless of what others have experienced. 
Your parents were smart 10000's of dogs end up killed every year due to idiots that let there dog have just 1 litter. Is it fair on the animals that die or get injured due to selfish humans that think animals NEED to experience this? 
Maybe visit a pound and see one of the many dogs and cats due to die. 
Look up "The Reptile Doctor" on facebook and have a look at the pictures of reptiles hurt due to stupidity and "just want to see if it works". One beardie in particular has his mouth taped shut and a feeding tube due to being housed with another beardie.


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## Shoogs (Dec 6, 2013)

+Fractal_man
Hey cheers, I didn't realise kids don't learn how to walk without falling, should you simply not have a child practise walking in the case you may be in the kitchen and they may fall over, smash their head on the coffee table and scream in agonising pain? Or how about not buy a second puppy incase one day your at work and one decides its going to rip the others head off, what about letting cats out on the neighbourhood streets so they can risk being ran over, killed by a dog or attacked by another cat?

Everything we do has risks of being fatal, we can't change the inevitability that something may go wrong but we can change our attitude toward it, mines simply hopeful but cautious where as yours is in theory it wont work, so don't try it.


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## MesseNoire (Dec 6, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> +Fractal_man
> Hey cheers, I didn't realise kids don't learn how to walk without falling, should you simply not have a child practise walking in the case you may be in the kitchen and they may fall over, smash their head on the coffee table and scream in agonising pain? Or how about not buy a second puppy incase one day your at work and one decides its going to rip the others head off, what about letting cats out on the neighbourhood streets so they can risk being ran over, killed by a dog or attacked by another cat?
> 
> Everything we do has risks of being fatal, we can't change the inevitability that something may go wrong but we can change our attitude toward it, mines simply hopeful but cautious where as yours is in theory it wont work, so don't try it.



There is no benefit for the beardies. They will not learn to not be dominant. You are willing to put two beardies together so you can learn that it won't work and that it will cause injuries? Is that what you're saying?
You are putting them together regardless of people's experiences, it's not cautious, it's stupid. Why are you taking the risk?


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## Shoogs (Dec 6, 2013)

+Fractal_man
Well what benefit does man receive living a life thats doomed to end, you know how many philosophers argue that we can't do anything without obtaining some sort of self-benefit.
If you want to have a child, your wife has to go through some extremely scarring stuff to give that to you doesn't she, whats the point of you, or anyone reproducing, they're just going to live a life filled with horrible things, rape, murder, bashings, loss of loved ones...Cuts, scars, blood, pain for what, just so humanity can keep living, consuming the earth's resources and essentially turning into a ****hole for all the BEARDED DRAGONS that will live in that foretold time. I understand your point completely, I'm not saying your wrong but I am trying to open your mind to why you choose to argue that when humanity does it to its own species everyday...

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+Fractal_man
Ok, I assume you have a car yes? What type?

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+kitten_pheonix
How can you ask me if it's "fair on animals that die due to selfish humans that think animals need to experience this"?
Change a few words, "is it fair on humans that die of old age, generally in pain, because their "selfish" parents wanted to have a child something amount of years ago"
Your to involved in seeing short life spans, therefore your seeing more of their death and problems more than the human race's.


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## KaotikJezta (Dec 7, 2013)

You have obviously made your mind up so why even ask for advice.


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## Rlpreston (Dec 7, 2013)

*What I have and what I can do? Housing Beardeis*



kitten_pheonix said:


> Kind of like saying lets leave our kids near the pool unattended and hope they don't drown.





Shoogs said:


> Everything we do has risks of being fatal, we can't change the inevitability that something may go wrong but we can change our attitude toward it, mines simply hopeful but cautious where as yours is in theory it wont work, so don't try it.



That's what I've been saying! I put my kids in the pool so they can learn to swim! What am I supposed to do? Not let the one year old in on her own 'in case' something goes wrong? I'm watching them from the chair right in front of the pool about 80% of the time for the next few weeks while I'm on holiday! Then if they don't drown I'll let them stay in the pool alone.... Why do people judge me for that? Just because other kids drown when they are in a pool, doesn't mean mine will so why worry! 

I don't trust the doctors and other parents who say it's a risk either, they are just negative.....


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## yellowbeard (Dec 7, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> Although like I said I am suspecting one male already and I want to know if the new guy turns out to be a male should I be prepared for them to try to kill eachother.
> 
> Thanks
> -Jake



Yes! always bet on the worst case scenario as "Murphy's Law" I find applies to reptiles very well.

The key to housing together as juveniles is plenty of food and constant supervision of their growth rates, as the dominate ones will grow a lot quicker and need to be separated from the smaller ones, you should aim to house same size together.

As they sexually mature multiple females can be housed together, however the first law of biology applies "In biology there is an exception to every rule", you may have a super dominate female she will need to be separated before she does damage or kills other females, constant supervision is the key.

As for two males together, not a good idea, one will become the dominate one and give the other a daily beating especially in the breeding season.


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## kitten_pheonix (Dec 7, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> +kitten_pheonix
> How can you ask me if Iit's "fair on animals that die due to selfish humans that think animals need to experience this"?
> Change a few words, "is it fair on humans that die of old age, generally in pain, because their "selfish" parents wanted to have a child something amount of years ago"
> Your to involved in seeing short life spans, therefore your seeing more of their death and problems more than the human race's.



No humans are compleatly different to animals for the one simple reason. COMMUNICATION. I can tell someone if I am at risk of being hurt by another, I can tell some one if I am hurt, if I am unhappy, if I think someone is an oxygen theif. Children from a young age can do the same, if your wife chooses to have a baby then she has made the decision to go through the pain.

Animals in our care rely on our observational skills and interpretation s to be safe secure and well. 

You should never leave young children unattended near a pool as you have a duty of care to them as it was your choice to have them, it is your responsibility to make sure they dont end up dead due to being an arrogant person. 


Buthe same applies with animals you have decided to home.

No one has said human life doesnt have risk, but we have free will to do as we please. Animals in a glass tank do not. They cannot ask to be seperated if they are in danger. They will be relying on your perhaps 5 hours out of 24 obeservations to say if they are fine or not.


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## Shoogs (Dec 7, 2013)

+kitten_pheonix
Fair enough, communication... Which in this case can also be put as OUR intelligence yes?
As you said we know whether something is worth it or not, we can way up the pros n cons of having a child, Beardies can't however its something that happens naturally anyways. 
If you take a step back, look at both species you'll see the only difference is that we have a lot more "reasons" as to why we should have a child simply because of our intelligence, for Beardies there is not any further reasons involved as to why they should, because they can't think like us, so in hienz sight they're neutral. But take away our ability to think and you see all along the property of reproduction stays.

I know that to some people, they wouldn't put their dog through pain so it can give birth, although is it because of the pain that will be presented? Or is it the owner, being an intelligent human, weighing up benefits for the dog?
Either one of those, if all humans choose to think that way our beautiful animals would be extinct, quite quickly, simply because humans don't want to be the "bad" guy putting there dog through pain.

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+KaoticJezta
I havnt really made up my mind though dude, it looks like it yeah, me and kitten are having a fairly heated discussion on the topic, and we keep getting closer to the bare boned truth, which is what I asked for in the first place. All I'm doing it giving counter arguments to people who hands down say NO, that way we continue to pick at each others arguments and after a bunch of correcting we come down to what we truly mean instead of what we can say straight up.

This is how I believe anything can be unravelled, its simply brainstorming, no matter how hostile it may look, other people's ideas so we can come to the real conclusion of what should be fore-taken.


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## yellowbeard (Dec 7, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Some people pay good money to be dominated and beaten by someone else.



Now whip it, whip it good. LMAO


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## Shoogs (Dec 7, 2013)

+Ripreston
Exactly dude, some people though are gonna misinterpret some of that, they'll picture a pool as a deep pool with nothing shallow and a one year old to young.
We are alike, we both seem to be able to truly grasp we can't learn without falling, nor can we ever be too set on the "rules", I mean their are 6 year old kids in Africa who swim through crocodile infested swamps to catch snakes bear handed for their family of 12 to eat!


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## andynic07 (Dec 7, 2013)

Shoogs said:


> +Ripreston
> Exactly dude, some people though are gonna misinterpret some of that, they'll picture a pool as a deep pool with nothing shallow and a one year old to young.
> We are alike, we both seem to be able to truly grasp we can't learn without falling, nor can we ever be too set on the "rules", I mean their are 6 year old kids in Africa who swim through crocodile infested swamps to catch snakes bear handed for their family of 12 to eat!


I got the feeling that there was a hint of sarcasm in Riperstn's post but may be wrong. You have obviously made up your mind on this matter so further discussion is fruitless. I am not judging you about your choice but it is not something that I would risk, I on the other hand choose other risks in life that others may feel are not worth it.


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## Shoogs (Dec 7, 2013)

+andynic07
When i first read the reply i thought it was sarcastic too so i just left it, then after I came back and read his previous comments as well as what he has quoted and started to think it was legitimate.
Thank-you, I appreciate your upfront about that and I'm sure maybe others are trying to say the same just in their own way.
Good luck with your pets too, safe to assume you have em' right? Lol, and I wish you the best!


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## andynic07 (Dec 7, 2013)

*What I have and what I can do? Housing Beardeis*

Cheers mate yes I have a beardie, two bhp's , diamond/coastal , a coastal , a woma , a spotted and a GTP plus two dogs. I also think riperston is a girl. I also keep all of my reptiles separate apart from my diamond cross and coastal. That is one of my acceptable risks.


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## Amelia (Dec 7, 2013)

There are so many threads created asking for advice about this sort of thing, the subtle undertones commonly reveal that what they really wanted to find was experienced keepers giving them the okay & making them feel more secure about their decision to house solitary animals together.

Nobody can guarantee that your animals won't maim or kill each other or that they won't stress about the situation they've been forced into just as nobody can guarantee that they won't find a way to coexist but in my experience there is a lot more evidence against the latter than there is for.

I house my reptiles separately.


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## Rlpreston (Dec 7, 2013)

I don't know what's worse.... The fact that you asked for advice and blatantly ignored it, or that you think I would actually leave my children unattended in water :/ 

My last post was incredibly sarcastic and for the record you should not house them together because there is a significant risk to their safety!

ETA: if you have children, please don't leave them in any water ever!!


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