# Egg thief



## Bundy5 (Nov 7, 2006)

Hi all, new here & need a bit of advice. I have 2, 2.5+ metre carpets & 1 diamond. They have lived in the same enclosure for 4 years. Bundy (the carpet) laid eggs last year in the log, NO-ONE was allowed in the log for 2 1/2 months. 25 babies were born on 3rd Jan 06. She is a legend. She again laid 2 weeks ago, directly under the light (i am building another enclosure). Dharma the other carpet who's sex is not know has bullied, harrased, & tried to steal her eggs. I set up their old tank & tried to get her & eggs out. She was so cool about it but the eggs are like superglued to the floor. She got under the newspaper to lay. As Dharma is way too big to move into old house i have had to put my sons leggo box over Bundy. With lots of airholes. Every couple of days i take Dharma out to roam (which she loves) offer Bundy water & lift her leggo box so she can stretch in peace whatever. Does anybody have an idea at what Dharma is up to, do you think the box is a good idea. Any tips would be great. Thanks heaps.:?


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## serpenttongue (Nov 7, 2006)

Get Dharma out and lose the Lego box. 

Firstly its not good that the eggs were laid under the light. If there is a chance that the eggs overheat she wont be able to leave the eggs to let them cool off. Before laying eggs you should have given her a nesting box down the cool end. She would have laid eggs in there and been able to leave them to get warm under the light, then return to warm them. They do actually allow the eggs to cool for 20-30 minutes while they bask.

What you should do is place a hide over her with a hole so she can leave when she wants. You cant keep her trapped as it can lead to her abandoning the eggs and the other snake must be removed as its presence will stress the brooding female.


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## buck (Nov 7, 2006)

My tip would be to take the Diamond out so it can't crossbreed with the coastals and hope that the current clutch are pure coastal.


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## Wrasse (Nov 8, 2006)

Bundy, you are in for some attacks from forum members, hold tight, this could get rough. 

Please get the other two snakes out of that enclosure. Let mum do her thing without the lego box. Give her a chance to get off the eggs if need be. Borrow an aviary if you have to.

If you don't know the sex of the other coastal, then you are also saying the dad could be the Diamond ?

I hope you bought your flame suit.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Nov 8, 2006)

Well done mate, congrats. I will buy a baby when they hatch and I hope THEY ARE crossbreeds. Boo hoo to all those who disagree!!!! I do agree with wrasse though. lose the leggo box, get the 2 others out and ignore anyone who blasts you. You are doing something right for her to breed 2 years in a row!!!! CONGRATS!!!!


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## Oskorei (Nov 8, 2006)

i dont understand why so many people are against cross breeds.

some white power nazi snake purist wanting to breed "super snakes" maybe

so what do we do with the cross breeds... gas chamber them?


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## mitchyj (Nov 8, 2006)

here we go again


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

Unfortunately yes.


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## Earthling (Nov 8, 2006)

People who dont agree with your particular view are just plain wrong and dont deserve to be on this site!
is that what your saying buck?


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

I'm not sure why I was included in that, I wasn't agreeing with Buck, I agreed with mitchyj when he said 'here we go again'.


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## Earthling (Nov 8, 2006)

Ahh cool sorry boa, I was surprised you said that. my fault. Now its just buck.


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

No problem, it can sometimes be hard to follow just where posts fit into the thread sometimes.


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## ad (Nov 8, 2006)

Oskorei said:


> i dont understand why so many people are against cross breeds.
> 
> some white power nazi snake purist wanting to breed "super snakes" maybe
> 
> so what do we do with the cross breeds... gas chamber them?



How funny, agreed Buck.

the purists are happy with how our natural animals, hybrid breeders are the ones who think they will create "super snakes".

Again, show me a nice aussie bred hybrid - no one can. Everyone thinks they will automatically get a jag looking animal by crossing a plain old carpet with a diamond etc. - Dream ON.

Australian Snakes are the best in the world - leave them natural - you will NOT make a better one than our natural animals.

Freeze the offspring for the good of the hobby,
Adam


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## snakes4me2 (Nov 8, 2006)

Oskorei said:


> i dont understand why so many people are against cross breeds.
> 
> some white power nazi snake purist wanting to breed "super snakes" maybe
> 
> so what do we do with the cross breeds... gas chamber them?


 
Ok i'll start off..

Oskorei I believe people have a genuine hatred for hybrids but i also believe that alot of people are against them because people try and sell their hybrids as PURE which could cause problems later on down the track eg: say you buy a coastal as PURE (like me) and plan to breed it but then you find out it is a hybrid. Now if i had bred my snake before i found out it was a hybrid i would have sold the hatchys as pure coastals which in that case you dont know what sort of snakes are getting around anymore.

Hope that clears it up for you 

PS you will allways have a for and against argument. I dont mind them but i wont be breeding mine, i will just keep that as a pet. However i have added more to my collection and plan to breed them:lol:


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## Tatelina (Nov 8, 2006)

ad said:


> Freeze the offspring for the good of the hobby,
> Adam


For the good of the hobby?! How about no for the welfare of the animals? 
I don't _think_ I agree with crossbreeding, but I certainly dont agree with culling them just because. There are heaps of kids who have no intention of breeding that will happily give crossbreeds a loving home.
Why don't we gas all the mixed ethnic people as well just to keep our races pure? *rolls eyes*


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

pmsl....... you guys really crack me up, most will spend good money trying to buy super looking pure line bred snakes, or albinos and so on, but have a go at anybody breeding hybrids or crosses, whats the difference, bloody none, lol, they all would never be bred in the wild and what about crossing athertons and tully jungles, most purests think thats ok, 
as for the comment about never seeing a nice hybrid or cross, well you had better open up your eyes guys and check these out, and don't try to say these aren't nice because we all know your wrong,

forgot, flame suit is on and waiting, please flame away guys..........................


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

What about this ugly looking thing ? GTP x Coastal.


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

very nice boa, i'll have a pair,


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

I'll have to wait and see how the eggs go ;-)


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

Boa that is awesome. 

that is a really cool looking animal.


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## cam (Nov 8, 2006)

I have a belly button  sorry JandC i couldn't resist


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

How much would htat sell for? Seriously


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

That is a pretty cool looking snake :/


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

I should say that isn't my snake nor is it in Australia but it is to demonstrate that hybrids can be exceptionally beautiful animals in their own right.


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

GTP's look heaps better though.


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

hybrid is a word you either love or hate, apart from that it's the name given to any reptile that is cross bred,


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

Mmm, yes it is definitely a love em or hate em situation.


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## NicG (Nov 8, 2006)

Hey guys, can we NOT turn this into another boring 'to cross breed or not not cross breed thread' please?! If you must go off topic, at least go for something a little less overdone - a natural incubation versus artificial incubation, for example.

I, for one, was interested in the original topic and was hoping to see what sensible suggestions were on offer ... and also want to know how the story eventually ends. By the way Bundy5, what exactly did you mean by tried to steal the eggs? To eat?

I assume that, since you still don't know the sex of Dharma, last year's clutch weren't pure Carpets (not that I care either way!). And was this Bundy's first clutch? From what I understand, 25 hatchlings from a first clutch is rather impressive, is it not? Sounds like a pretty good argument for natural incubation to me. Either way, you're doing something right.

Cheers,
Nic


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## TrueBlue (Nov 8, 2006)

Steve if you dont know the difference between breeding pure snakes or hybrids and what it can and will do to the hobby in the future, then i give up. (rolls eyes).

I opened my eyes and had a look and what i saw looked [deleted]. Seen nicer pure carpets and pure daimonds.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 8, 2006)

Ashleigh:];667730 said:


> Sorry if I sound silly. But what is a hybird?


 
Any animal posessed by the devil


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

Yeah you would think so. ;-)


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

How could anyone not like the look of this ?


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

hi rob, i've been waiting for you to visit, 

good to see your giving up rob, best news i've had for years, 

i've seen nicer pure carpets and pure diamonds also, ( see we can be friends if we are both honest ) and i didn't say mine were nicer then pure ones, what i said was mine aren't ugly and rob your eyes need fixing if you say different, 

buy the way rob, i do know the difference in breeding pure reptiles and hybrids, i've bred both, have you? 

and why have you only replyed with my name rob, what about the other members, has it anything to do with the fact that i don't cower in the corner when you speak, getting a little personal aren't you, didn't know that i was the only member that couldn't have an opinion without you always attacking me, 
you must be so lonely rob, or i really must get under your skin, so please keep your comments directed at me to yourself, i'm totally over you rob, go find another member to have a go at, 

love you rob, but i'm not interested anymore.............


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

Oh, I didn't realise you guys had broken up :/


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

But anyway, that snake is ugly, it doesn't look real, looks like someone has painted it or something.


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

That snake is ugly ?? Are your contact lenses in inside out ? ;-) Just joking, each to their own.


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

It is ugly  Like a paint job done by someone on acid.

I'd rather a snake a bit more natural looking.


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

That is a really interesting looking animal

I guess one major issue with them is once you have a hybrid, is then what do you mate it with. 

Man you could really end up with some 5th generation mix


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## sxc_celly (Nov 8, 2006)

ad, how could you even say freeze the offspring for the good of the hobby. People have crossbreds horses, and dogs, and have produced the most gorgeous, nice natured animals ever. If you dont like hybrids thats your opinion. I say good on you Bundy, you doing something very right if youve managed to get her to lay 2 years. Dont listen to what anyone says about hybrids. Id remove the other 2 snakes in the enclosure, and let her go about her parenting duties. Wel done about the eggs. Also i dont think that snake in the picture was ugly but it wasnt BEAIUTIFUL either. Each to their own.


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## Wrasse (Nov 8, 2006)

Question for you all, (and back on the original topic), it was asked of me and I didn't know the answer, could the other coastal, Dharma, be possibly stealing the eggs, as a female, or trying to do away with a contenders successful clutch, as a male.

Can any of the experienced breeders out there shed some light on this ?


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

hey thenothing, whats happened to you mate, check back a couple pages and you said you liked boas hybrid pic, now since the king has entered the room you have cowered down and changed your mind, come on mate, at least stick with one side,


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## Bundy5 (Nov 8, 2006)

Hi, thanks for your opionions. Last years baby's were not planned at all, i was told by the reptile park that they probably wouldn't hatch, but they did. They were donated to the park. I kept one. I should have built the new cage then & there but everbody said it probably wouldn't happen again so i got slack. It is being built as we speak. I'm not very impressed with myself as i'm not keen on crossbreading. My last clutch were cross. We don't know the sex of Dharma to explain more what she/he is doing, She/he started by pushing Bundy with head, this went on for a while then she wrapped herself around Bundy & started shivvering. Bundy was a bit stressed out, Dharma was very annoyed at being removed. I know the leggo box is not a great tempory solution, but it's working for now. I am constantly checking the temp underneath. I love my snakes and would never do anything to harm them, even though i may seem a bit irresponsible now.


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> I guess one major issue with them is once you have a hybrid, is then what do you mate it with.
> 
> Man you could really end up with some 5th generation mix



not sure about others, but i have a pair from the same clutch, IF i breed them it will be to each other,


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

I don't want to sound harsh but you aren't keen on crossbreeds so you left them all in together for another season ?


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## junglepython2 (Nov 8, 2006)

What would a reptile park do with crosses?


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## Wrasse (Nov 8, 2006)

Bundy, Dharma sounds like she is trying to incubate them too, not pinch them.

Was/is Dharma gravid ?


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## serpenttongue (Nov 8, 2006)

Bundy5 said:


> Dharma the other carpet who's sex is not know has bullied, harrased, & tried to steal her eggs.


 
Exactly how has she tried doing this?

If a python is brooding eggs in a hide then any cage mates will come in and rest on top of her(or the eggs if she's absent), but they dont have any interest in the eggs.


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

steve6610 said:


> hey thenothing, whats happened to you mate, check back a couple pages and you said you liked boas hybrid pic, now since the king has entered the room you have cowered down and changed your mind, come on mate, at least stick with one side,



LOL

I liked the first one, the second one looks awful. And, I don't even know who you're talking about, so, tell me - who am I cowering from?

If you look at what I said, I said the snake looked good, but real GTPs look better. GTPs are beautiful snakes, so why wouldn't the hybrid look nice?

Pure snakes look better than hybrids, just like a pure bred Golden Retreiver looks 100% better than a Golden Retreiver crossed with a bull dog.


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

junglepython2 said:


> What would a reptile park do with crosses?



They wouldn't breed them in the first place.


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

Whoops  Read the other post. I'm surprised they'd take them. They would probably cull.


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

no worries thenothing, my mistake mate, i disagree with you, but i respect that you have the right to your opinion, just like i'm aloud my opinion.............. i just don't know how anybody can say that have never say an ugly pure snake????
because i've seen a few i think are ugly......................


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

Now the interesting thing is that the first one, that you like, is a GTP x Coastal but the second one that looks awful is a pure GTP. 



thenothing said:


> I liked the first one, the second one looks awful.
> 
> QUOTE]


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

Thats very interesting 
wonder why its colouration was that way, a few generations of work put in there


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

pmsl boa, i remember that pic now, it is pure isn't it, 

just goes to show i was right again.............


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## Hetty (Nov 8, 2006)

Well, if that is pure, it's hardly your standard GTP now is it?

My point was that natural looks better. If you think that snake looks natural there's something wrong with your head.


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

Yeah from what I understand it just came out fairly normal and has been changing ever since. 



We Have It All said:


> Thats very interesting
> wonder why its colouration was that way, a few generations of work put in there


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

I didn't say it was 'natural' I said it was pure. 



thenothing said:


> Well, if that is pure, it's hardly your standard GTP now is it?
> 
> My point was that natural looks better. If you think that snake looks natural there's something wrong with your head.


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

steve do you have a bigger pic of that one in your avatar?


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

The point of posting that photo is it shows how peoples preconceived ideas can cloud their judgement. People were expecting a hybrid so reacted accordingly. It doesn't bother me in the slightest what people thing of them to be quite honest, there are real things to worry about in this world.


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## Retic (Nov 8, 2006)

It's a beautiful snake isn't it ?



We Have It All said:


> steve do you have a bigger pic of that one in your avatar?


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

Yeah, its a nice looking snake


I dont really judge something on whether it is pure or not, cross i dont care, to say something is beautiful, then the topic is a subjective personal call. 

Therefore all of the snakes shown are beautiful 

I am sure there are plenty of hybrids that are "generally" ugly, and i am sure that there are plenty of pures that are "generally" ugly also. 

Its just a shame that people keep the blinkers on without thinking about what they are saying or looking at the speciment. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to outright assume that all hybrids are ugly is ignorant and somewhat biggoted. 

It is a whole nother arguement of whether hybrids are good/ bad/ indifferent for herpetology in captivity, ethically and ecologically. And therefore whether these issues could adversely affect the natural environment. 

Man that was a long way around


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> steve do you have a bigger pic of that one in your avatar?



if you check out the first page you will see my pair, these pics are the latest i have, taken in the last month..........


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

sorry, make that the second page.................


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

so what are the exact crosses of them. They look nice
Diamond % etc?


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

coastal x port mac coastal or intergrade as some call them, 

they would be 75% coastal and 25% diamond,


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

I would love to see a Diamond x Bredli, that would be an interesting mix, 

or a GTP cross Diamond so we could have a Green and yellow diamond , a real ozie snake


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

i've seen a few other crosses, but won't say who has them, but i'm pretty sure one was a diamond x bredli and they all looked great, i just think a lot of people forget that all captive bred snakes are just pets, so who really cares if they aren't pure, they will only ever be pets,


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## SlothHead (Nov 8, 2006)

you dont happen to have a picture of that do you, Diamond x Bredli or maybe you could describe it a little


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

sorry mate, as it's not mine i can't send any pics, but i can say it looks more like a bredli then a diamond.........


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## TrueBlue (Nov 8, 2006)

ha ha ha , whos under whos skin you mean steve, i directed the post to you because you were the only one silly enough to think the theres no difference line breeding pures or breeding hybrids, (rolls eyes again), I really dont care what you do or think, means didly squat to me, but to promote it on an open forum is i bit silly and even ilegal to knowingly breed in qld.
No steve i dont breed hybids, im not the stupid.


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

pmsl rob,
accidents happen, and it might be news to you, but what i did was as illegal as you breeding for morphs such as albinos, we have been over this rob, i also have been into epa and told them what happened, did you know that in qld all morelias should be listed on the same page, so it's not illegal,


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## Oskorei (Nov 8, 2006)

First of all i would like to appolgise to Bundy5 for starting a mini flame in his thread.

in my post i didnt really explain myself all that good (i had to goto work and was pressed for time)

why i posted that is becasue some people on here as soon as the work cross or hybrid is mentioned their responce is to kill it and that you are the worst person in the world to let that thing live.

if you like your snakes to be pure breeds that good for you. australia has the most beautiful looking snakes in the world and they are just amazing. but what is so wrong about cross breeeding? we keep snakes for a hobby or a pet so what is wrong with having a snaked that has upto 5 or more breeds in it? all the snake pureists out there i ask you do you have pure bred cats and dogs?

same as the arguement about exotics.. are your cats and dogs native to australia? unless you all own dingos i think not.

i am sick of reading about people condeming other peoples snakes cause they are not pure get over it, if you want to keep your snakes pure thatg is good and i woudl love to buy one from you sometime. but if you want to mix it up a bit and have a snake that is unlike another of the 5000 others that people have in their homes then i am keen for one of them as well.

a snake is a snake no matter what is in its gene pool so get off your high horse and grow up

cheers 
Mick


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## CodeRed (Nov 8, 2006)

junglepython2 said:


> What would a reptile park do with crosses?


 
haha, they gotta feed the cobras


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## steve6610 (Nov 8, 2006)

mick, i like your thoughts, i agree 100% with what you said, i've got 4 crossed snakes, 2 i bred, one is a true port mac coastal and i have one suspect darwin x coastal, but not sure, it might be pure darwin that was sold as a carpet.......... but wow, i then have 46 pure bred snakes, some of those are location pure as well, but i get smashed by the same few members over my couple crossed snakes, the difference between me and purests is i like all reptiles,


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## buck (Nov 8, 2006)

steve6610 said:


> i have one suspect darwin x coastal, but not sure, it might be pure darwin that was sold as a carpet..........


 
This is one of the main reasons why I don't agree with hybrids. How long will it take before we have no idea what the snake actually is?

Let's say for example that a snake is a cross diamond. What temps etc do you keep it at? How can you possibly know how to provide a climate that won't effect the health of the snake? With pure snakes it's easy as you just mimic the same conditions that would naturally occur but obviously there is no natural environment for a bredli x diamond for example.

The other thing that really gets on my goat which is somewhat related is people breeding diamondxcoastal and trying to sell them as intergrades!!!


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## NicG (Nov 9, 2006)

Hi Bundy5,

Now that the hijacked thread seems to have been brought under control, I was wondering whether I could ask you a couple of questions ...

1) How old are all the snakes involved? And roughly what lengths are they?
2) Was last year's rather successful clutch of 25 hatchlings Bundy's first attempt at breeding?
3) Did she lose much weight during the natural incubation process?
4) What type of Carpet Pythons are Bundy and Dharma? I don't think that you ever mentioned that ...

Cheers,
Nic


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

You are right Steve breeding one Morelia with another is NOT illegal in Queensland. There are one or two that want to make all this personal and I guess that's fine but it would seem the majority aren't narrow minded and accept a snake for what it is.
Each to their own.


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## junglist* (Nov 9, 2006)

The funniest thing i think is that people are getting all up ina rms about captively crossed offspring, yet intergrades (same thing different smell) are deemed as acceptable.

If there were major genetic problems, then the animals would not produce viable offspring.

Remember that all of our sub speciation is relative, and the classes and subclasses are not stagnant.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

Most of the problem is that people don't want to attract attention to themselves by saying they have a hybrid in their collection or worse still to have actually bred some. They are afraid of the flaming they will get from a few others, personally I say it like it is, I have thick skin and really couldn't care as life is too short.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 9, 2006)

It seems to me that there is far too much emphasis on the legality of cross bred reptiles rather than issues like, what is good for our hobby or the reptiles genetic integrity. 
Lets get a bit real here, no sane person could ever believe that a cross bred reptile could only be visually ugly. So lets hear about and list a few of the reasons why crossbred snakes are good for our hobby in the long term and how they are not a long term potential threat to our natural wildlife in the future. I am genuinely interested to hear. Perhaps a new thread in order and for those who just roll their eyes and think, Oh no not again this has been done to death, I think this discussion is far from concluded and there will be more than a few willing participants. In fact I consider it a very important issue to continue to debate regardless of the already concluded belief by many that it is pointless.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

PP, I agree on many of those points especially the legal side of it which has been done to death. It isn't illegal in QLD to cross most morelia so that's out of the way. 
I'm not entirely sure what this means "no sane person could ever believe that a cross bred reptile could only be visually ugly" Are you saying they AREN'T ugly because they are cross breeds or are you saying it is ugly under the skin ? I can't quite follow that one. I do agree about all the rolling of the eyes though, it gets a little tiring. 
I am not sure why exactly something such as cross breeding has to be good for the hobby and exactly how they are a potential threat to the natural wildlife ? They aren't ever likely to see a wild cousin except in the event of an escape but the same potential is there if a pure non local snake escapes.
It does need to be talked about but it is important not to talk down to those who have a different view. 
Different people have differing views and no one side should automatically think they are right, I have always been keen on hybrids and have seen some absolute crackers over the years, I haven't suddenly changed my viewpoint on this because some see it as unpopular. 
Whether it is good for the hobby or not is impossible to say, people use the USA as an example of not what to do but pure animals are widely available from any number of sources and no doubt always will be.


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## TrueBlue (Nov 9, 2006)

Boa, i think you will find that the head office in mogal, DONOT allow hybrids to be knowingly breed in qld.
There are a few NPWS offices around qld that to me seem pretty clueless and dont seem to have any idea what they are on about half the time.
Take the offices that make people use tongs for snake catching for example, i can remember informing my local office a number of years back about this absurd pratice and they were going to do their darnest to stop it.


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## buck (Nov 9, 2006)

junglist* said:


> The funniest thing i think is that people are getting all up ina rms about captively crossed offspring, yet intergrades (same thing different smell) are deemed as acceptable.
> .


 
Aaaarrgghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Why would a Coastal x Diamond be the same as an Intergrade(Port Macquarie Python)? An Intergrade is it's own species.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 9, 2006)

Boa 
When I say that no sane person could ever believe that a cross bred reptile could only be visually ugly, I simply mean that it is clear that there are great looking crossbreds around and to claim otherwise is insane.

As far as side being automatically being right, they will be if they deal in facts which there are many.
Here is just a couple for one side.
(1)
Crossbreeding is causing species identification issues to a point where many keepers do not know for sure what they have bought.
(2)
All wildlife departments do not support in principal the idea of reptile keeper purposely creating cross breeds. Instead it is the case that they recognize that their hands are often legally tied because of antiquated legislation in some states which simply protect those individuals participating in those actions.

Please post up a few facts from the other side.


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## Nome (Nov 9, 2006)

junglist* said:


> The funniest thing i think is that people are getting all up ina rms about captively crossed offspring, yet intergrades (same thing different smell) are deemed as acceptable.
> 
> If there were major genetic problems, then the animals would not produce viable offspring.
> 
> Remember that all of our sub speciation is relative, and the classes and subclasses are not stagnant.



Intergrades are not the same thing :roll:

This is just another reason why crossbreeding is bad for the hobby, so many people flogging off their diamond x coastals as intergrades. That's why people like you Junglist are getting very mixed up.

All the supporters of hybrids, you can't say for a second that it hasn't damaged our hobby. There are so many people out there that have posted up pictures of their diamond or childreni, that is clearly not a pure snake even though they bought it as one. How is that right? 

How can it be good or even okay for our hobby when so many snakes that are sold as pure are not pure, these people that don't know any different, buy them, breed them, resell them as pure.

You can say it' fine if people be honest, but fact is they aren't honest, or they are ignorant and don't know the difference.

How is that good for our hobby?


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## buck (Nov 9, 2006)

Nome said:


> Intergrades are not the same thing :roll:
> 
> This is just another reason why crossbreeding is bad for the hobby, so many people flogging off their diamond x coastals as intergrades. That's why people like you Junglist are getting very mixed up.
> 
> ...


 
Well said Nomes


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## junglist* (Nov 9, 2006)

Geez, im definately not confused, you've got me mistaken for someone else.

If you dont understand genetics, i suggest shutting up.

There is no such thing as pure, to claim so is ridiculously naieve. Its about as smart as white supremacists, but thats a wholly different issue.

An intergrade is the result of the natural cross breeding of two related specimen. If the same specimens were to do so in captivity, can you, oh well informed one tell me what difference the genetics of the captively crossed offspring will have to the wild crossbreed?


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## junglepython2 (Nov 9, 2006)

Intergrade implies a a local mixing of subspecies where they happen to meet, so a gradient of characteristics should be seen from one sub-species to the other, this occurs over generations. 

A simple cross between two subspecies is not an intergrade and shouldn't be sold as one.


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## Nome (Nov 9, 2006)

Intergrades are not a diamond cross coastal, for example, Port Macquarie Intergrades are a locality of carpet that are only found in certain parts of NSW. Intergrades breed with intergrades in the wild.

Do some research Junglist before you make yourself sound like a fool. Can you honestly sit here and say that crossing a coastal and diamond in captivity will make an intergrade, a naturally occuring locality carpet that has existed in it's natural habitat for ages as an intergrade. One theory is that the two subspecies overlapped hundreds of years ago and over generations produced intergrades, it's still far from something you can make in captivity.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

Thanks Dave, I did think that was what you meant, as you say it is madness to suggest a snake is ugly based purely on the fact that it is a cross breed, thanks for clearing that up as you say there are some great looking hybrids out there. 



PilbaraPythons said:


> Boa
> When I say that no sane person could ever believe that a cross bred reptile could only be visually ugly, I simply mean that it is clear that there are great looking crossbreds around and to claim otherwise is insane.


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## steve6610 (Nov 9, 2006)

i agree with a lot you say dave, and just for the record, i do respect what you say for the reason you don't personally attack others, 

what i want to ask you is this, you asked what hybrids do for the hobby, i'll ask you this, what do albinos , hypos, double striped , single striped, super stripes and so on do for the hobby, 
in my opinion i believe that cross breeding will do the same as all the things i listed above, it gives keepers more different patterns, colours and so on to have in their collections, 
how will anybody know if they have bought a darwin het for albino, they don't unless the breeder has been honest, how many possible het darwin males have been frozen to keep the price up, how does that help the snakes, getting frozen just because you might carry the albino gen, it might be a bit different but it's along the same lines, apart from the money and the thrill of owning an albino, what other benifit does breeding them do, what will an albino do if it gets put back into the wild, it will be dead very quickly, and the same goes for all the other morphs that are being bred, they will stand out like something hanging on a dog, 
for those who keep going on about it being illegal to breed hybrids, why do you accept it's ok to breed for morphs, i can scan and send anybody the qld rules that plainly states it's illegal to breed morphs, and also that it's illegal to keep your snakes to make a profit, but i've been over these points and they get swept under the carpet as always, 

this reply is for dave as he asked why i want to breed hybrids and why it's ok, so to everybody else, please keep the personal attacks to yourselves,


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## Tsidasa (Nov 9, 2006)

What a shame, Bundy has got hardly any information as to what they should do with their snakes.


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## Deano (Nov 9, 2006)

Tsidasa said:


> What a shame, Bundy has got hardly any information as to what they should do with their snakes.





I agree Tsidasa..............


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

Not at all, seperate them and let the female incubate the eggs or put them in an incubator. There really isn't too much that can be said on the topic really. He said he didn't want to breed crosses but left them together again, I'm not sure what else to say. 



Tsidasa said:


> What a shame, Bundy has got hardly any information as to what they should do with their snakes.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 9, 2006)

Steve6610
If the object of this discussion (even though this thread is off track ) is to logically debate whether or not cross breeding is good for our hobby, or not, then I think it is crucial to set out known facts first and then to discuss the relevance of those facts in order to come to some sort of clear conclusion.
Rather than answer a question with a question perhaps it might be helpful to just try and answer it.This way the answer can be evaluated and who knows, may sway opinion. 
Do not automatically assume that albinos, weird colored morphs etc won’t survive in the wild as they clearly do and they can only be described as being naturally occurring. It is more of the case that they are only more vulnerable to a degree than the rest of the population if they stand out more to predators.
I am not quite sure of your reference or the relevance to this, in relation to any support for crossbreeding though?

You ask the question, why is it acceptable to breed morphs?
I answer this by saying that the definition of a morph is subject to different interpretation. 
Generally speaking though, a morph is considered a naturally occurring species that shows different colour traits within a population either by size, colour, scalation difference within a given species. This is often influenced by geographical variances or natural barriers limiting gene flow between areas and other factors etc. Preserving or promoting those differences that these specimens display to please the masses who appreciate them for what they are, seems like a valid contribution to an element of reptile keeping that we all enjoy.
Crossing different species on the other hand to end up with (some times) beautiful unnatural occurring specimens (in terms of what would be likely found in the wild) does not equate to the same thing.
As far as people being honest or not, well that has nothing really to do with whether we should or should not be crossing breeding species. One thing that is becoming abundantly clear though is it is obviously going to be easier for the unscrupulous to get away with dishonesty the more tainted our captive reptiles become through cross breeding.

Cheers Dave


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## Twiggz (Nov 9, 2006)

Well Bundy, i hope you managed to get some legitament help for your situation. I applaud those who took the time to actually help out. Being new to the forum i would expect that any queries i faced with my collection would be addressed by people who were generally interested in helping (many thanks to those who have helped me in the last few days), but come on...... it appears as though many people were just more interested in arguing the issue of hybrids......a complete waste of time for the genuine folk seeking advice.

Everyone is to their own opinion and thats fine, but in all seriousness why would you want to cross breed? With the exception of having a sole cross breed as a pet, i ask the question:

"Are Australia's native/natural occuring species not good enough for you to keep as they are?"

Should this be the case, then its my opinion that you dont deserve to keep them. Pure and simple.

Finally in response to the pic posted by Boa on one of the early pages and his statement "How could anyone not like the look of this snake?"

- Apart from calling it nothing more than a mongrel snake, the appearance and colouring alone looks more like something i've thrown up in the past.

But hey, to each their own.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

Dave, I think we need to get past this question of whether it is good for the hobby to breed crosses. If I breed 2 coastals to get striped offspring is that good for the hobby ? Or breeding any trait in a snake ? These things aren't good for the hobby, don't get me wrong they aren't bad either. Animals are NOT being bred to reintroduce into the wild, they are being bred to sell to other people who appreciate the beauty of snakes, all snakes not just pure snakes. 
It's not like I even have a vested interest in these animals but I do value the right of the individual.
There will always be pure snakes available from a great many breeders including myself.


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## steve6610 (Nov 9, 2006)

in my opinion i believe that cross breeding will do the same as all the things i listed above, it gives keepers more different patterns, colours and so on to have in their collections,

thats ok dave, thanks for giving me a straight answer, above is a quote from my first post, this is the reason why i like the idea of cross breeding, and you forget that all captive bred snakes will never be returned to the wild, and i want to know if they survive in the wild why aren't they seen all the time, ( albinos ), 
the thing that really annoys me the most is that just because i like the idea of "designer" snakes that i don't care about pure snakes, thats bull, i also have more location pure and mixed location pure snakes then i do crossed breeds, 

but dave you didn't comment on the fact that it's illegal to breed morphs as much as it is to breed hybrids, 

and as for you twiggz saying we shouldn't have the right to own reptiles, thats a load of crap, i can bet my reptiles are better cared for then thousands of other reptiles around, as for your opinion on liking them or not, thats fine, but don't get up on your block and make a statement that we aren't fit to own them,


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 9, 2006)

Boa 
I don’t believe you should ever go past that question as I think that this is the most important question of all.
Also the right of an individual should never be at the expensive of what a majority deem to be in the best interest of this hobby.

Steve6610
The reason that we don’t often see albinos is because they are rare. Not because they can not survive.

I am not yet ignorant enough to comment in depth about the legality on the breeding of morphs as I have never seen or read an act any where in Australia that makes the breeding of them illegal. Assuming that it is now illegal in Queensland, I would not care any how as the fact that an action is lawful or other wise has no bearing on my feelings towards crossbreeding. 

Cheers Dave


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## steve6610 (Nov 9, 2006)

thats ok dave, i can send you a scan of it if you want, but you are right, it doesn't really have anything to do with you liking them or not, but it does have something to do with a lot of replys from other members that always end with, " and it's illegal in qld " , 

but i really have to disagree with this comment,

"Also the right of an individual should never be at the expensive of what a majority deem to be in the best interest of this hobby." 

dave there was a poll on here on the old site and i'm sure if you searched you would find it, but from memery the vote for those who would own hybrids was over 70%, so i think you are wrong in saying that the majority don't want or like hybrids, the problem is to many get flamed by the same 20 or so people about hybrids that most shut up and say nothing, i can tell you that i've had plenty of emails and pms asking to buy my 2 cross breeds, and i've also had plenty of members on here tell me what they have, because they know i won't abuse them, i've also got a list of members who have asked me to breed my coastal and intergrade again so they can get a hatchling, so dave you are wrong in this case, weither it's good or bad will NEVER be answered,
if hybrids or crosses have a place in our hobby, i'm sorry but they have, like it or hate it, if in doubt, just start another pole and find out again.................


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

So which is it ? 



Twiggz said:


> Should this be the case, then its my opinion that you dont deserve to keep them. Pure and simple.
> 
> 
> But hey, to each their own.


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## TrueBlue (Nov 9, 2006)

Theres actually a naturally occurring population of albino and normal rat snakes, (Elaphe climacophora), at Iwakuni in Japan, so it is possible that albino populations can occur. With albinos being so rare thou its definitly not a common thing for any species of animal.
Pretty cool thou having a naturaly occurring population of albinos cruising around japan.
Occasionly adult albino snakes are found but not often.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

The population of albinos at Iwakuni is steadily decreasin even though the area is protected and is being supported with captive bred animals, the wild type snakes are still abundant. The problem is the albinos are just too visible and vulnerable to predation.


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## TrueBlue (Nov 9, 2006)

they are still there thou boa and have been for a very long time,
I think its awsome that an animal so obvious to predators can survive in the wild.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

Yeah that's true, it's just a shame they seem to be losing the battle.


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## Australis (Nov 9, 2006)

70% Odd percent of people claimed on a APS Poll they owned Hyrbids?

Just because these people own Hybrids, doesnt mean they like them, or wanted a Hybrid.

So many people are sold Hyrbids as Pure, and dont know until they post a pic up.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

This is what Steve actually said "the vote for those who would own hybrids was over 70%, "


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 9, 2006)

Steve6610
I stand by my comment, “the right of an individual should never be at the expense of what a majority deem to be in the best interest of this hobby." If you are correct in that the majority of people in this country support crossbreeding then this comment remains valid to that majority, for the exact same reason.
I sincerely doubt though, that the majority of reptile enthusiasts in this country do actually support the crossbreeding of different species. But hey, I could be surprised.
We must keep this in perspective though, as a poll held here on this forum does not even scratch the surface of the total number of licensed keepers in this country and therefore the result would very likely be obscure. Every one who I regularly talk to with in the broad range of fields in this industry certainly do not support it. Most of these people however, do not engage them selves in these forums.
It would actually be interesting to get an Australia wide poll result though don’t you think?
Oh yeah, please do post up that section of the act I would be interested to read it.

Cheers Dave


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## steve6610 (Nov 9, 2006)

i was only saying the appox % that i could remember, somebody that knows how to use the search function might find it for us........

and i know for 100% that there have been pure snakes posted here that were then made out to be crossed and they weren't, so it goes both ways, i know the breeder of one said snake where members on here convinced the owner that it was a cross, but i know the breeder and he is well known and it was 100% pure coastal, 

see my point????????? i hope so.............


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## Australis (Nov 9, 2006)

I cant use the search function either, its far to painful.
Recently ive noticed it seems alot of people think morphs, even Albinos, are the direct result of cross breeding.

Which i think has a little bit to do with the Pro-Hybrid members posting pictures of crossed Morphs ( Jungle Jaguar etc......)


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

I can't see that peoples misconceptions or ignorance can be put down to "pro hybrid" members. If people think an albino comes about through cross breeding it is just a lack of knowledge.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 9, 2006)

boa said:


> I can't see that peoples misconceptions or ignorance can be put down to "pro hybrid" members. If people think an albino comes about through cross breeding it is just a lack of knowledge.


 
Albino diamonds, jungles ect will be coming out soon due crosses.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

What has that got to do with my statement that you quoted ?


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## junglepython2 (Nov 9, 2006)

Just pointing out that albinos can come out due to crosses as well.

Wasn't having a go at all


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## Oskorei (Nov 9, 2006)

how can you say that cross breeding is to blame for people buying a pure bred only to find out that it is a cross... even if you ban cross breeding it will occor bause alot of people are dishonest.. also they might not want to be be attacked for having bred cross breeds and wish to sell then and not cull that cause that is cruel and heartless, so they sell them as pures. this will not always be the case cause people are just dishonest.

and what is the difference between breeding 2 different species of snakes to produce a good looking cross to selective breeding 2 of the same species to prduce a beautiful pure bred

paths might be different but the end is the same.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

I realise you weren't having a go, it's fine. 

The original message was that people thought albinos came about through cross breeding but that is different to cross breeding an albino with another species to produce an albino cross. 
Some people apparently think that if you cross breed an albino could just pop out spontaneously which of course is just silly and highly unlikely. 



junglepython2 said:


> Just pointing out that albinos can come out due to crosses as well.
> 
> Wasn't having a go at all


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## junglepython2 (Nov 9, 2006)

Yeah no worries, I understood your post and that albino's don't originate from crosses, just thought it was ironic that albino's will now be crossed to form new hybrids thats all.


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## Retic (Nov 9, 2006)

Absolutely right and there will be some stunning animals around and the assertion they will be worthless mongrels is just absurd, I think the queue will be a long one. ;-)


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## Australis (Nov 9, 2006)

Oskorei said:


> how can you say that cross breeding is to blame for people buying a pure bred only to find out that it is a cross... even if you ban cross breeding it will occor bause alot of people are dishonest.. also they might not want to be be attacked for having bred cross breeds and wish to sell then and not cull that cause that is cruel and heartless, so they sell them as pures. this will not always be the case cause people are just dishonest.



Of course cross breeding is to blame, of someone is sold a cross bred animal as pure, what else could be to blame????. PMSL......


If your going to breed a cross/hybrid, and the abuse you cop will make you go underground and con people when you decide to sell them as pure, you shouldnt breed them to start with if you cant handle peoples opinions on them!!

There is NO excuse for selling known Hybrids/Cross as Pure animals, perhaps these type of people should get thicker skin!


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## junglepython2 (Nov 9, 2006)

Question is will people try and flog them off as pure though, and how will we even know for sure, especially with the other thread stating that the DNA is pretty much identical.


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## Australis (Nov 9, 2006)

boa said:


> I can't see that peoples misconceptions or ignorance can be put down to "pro hybrid" members. If people think an albino comes about through cross breeding it is just a lack of knowledge.




No its not your fault, but your pics seem to mislead people who are ignorant, it seems alot of newer keepers think Morphs are Crossed animals, and you cant have Morphs that is pure....

I wasnt attacking, and im sure you have seen what i saying, i just think showing Morph crosses as examples of crosses in general, confuses alot of people


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## Oskorei (Nov 9, 2006)

but its not the cross breeding thats the problem its the dishonesty of the people who try to pass them off as being pure.


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## Australis (Nov 9, 2006)

Oskorei said:


> but its not the cross breeding thats the problem its the dishonesty of the people who try to pass them off as being pure.




But the fact remains, if the hybrid wasnt created in the first place, it would be a problem..


Ive even seen clear Diamond cross sold as other types of crosses, by some.......

Geez, Even hybrids being sold as hybrids arent honest..lol


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## steve6610 (Nov 9, 2006)

hi dave, sorry mate but my scanner is stuffed, so i will type what the rules say, i know some might think i could lie as to what it says, but i'm sure other qld members can back me up,
the below is word for word from the wildlife management guidelines that all qlders should have recieved with their licence, 

"a person who holds a recreactional wildlife licence may breed animals under the licence. it is usually an offence to knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal; however, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence may breed a mutation, but not a hybrid of the following:
a controlled bird;
a commercial bird;
a recreational bird;
the holder must not breed a mutation or hybrid of a restricted bird or of any species of reptile or amphibian. 

a person who holds a recreational wildlife licence may buy or accept, sell or give away animals under the licence. however, the person is not allowed to keep or use an animal kept under a recreational wildlife licence for a commercial purpose. 

a person who holds a recreational wildlife licence must not keep or use wildlife under the licence for a commercial purpose. the meaning of "commercial purpose" is stated in the regulation. in simple terms, a person who holds a recreational wildlife licence must not keep or use protected wildlife as part of a business or otherwise use it in a business - like manner.

the meaning of commercial purposes include the following things;
operating under a buisness or trading name under which the person buys or sells protected animals;
importing wildlife into the state for the main purpose of selling it;
keeping or using wildlife in a way that makes you liable to pay tax for the activity under the law of the commonwealth; "

i know it's long and boring, and some info doesn't concern reptile keepers but i didn't want to be accused of cutting bits out to benifit myself.........

the only other thing i will add is that no where does it say you can't cross breed, it states you can't breed hybrids, in my opinion a hybrid is 2 different species like a horse and donkey, and as all morelia are meant to be recorded in qld under one heading "morelia" it can't be illegal to breed a coastal with a darwin, if you choose to, but it is illegal to breed for morphs,
we might disagree, but it's in black and white...................


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 10, 2006)

Steve6610
I have just read what you have posted, but where does it say that it is illegal to breed morphs ?
I think you may be confusing morphs with mutations?
Also when you are dealing with an act you can only use the meaning of words as is written for that act for example: In the Queensland Nature Conservation act ( it may be called some different , I can't remember) the word sold has the same meaning as to give away for the purpose of that act.
This is why it is important to read what they deem as a mutation etc.
What you read though sounds like it is guidelines or perhaps regulations. This does not necessarily mean that they are enforceable.
A friend of mine actually imported reptiles with no import permit and was charged.
He won the case on the grounds that as his licence had written on it, licensed to import, export, as did all recreational licenses at the time and therefore he was covered under the act of illegally importing wildlife. The fact that he never used a movement permit becomes irrelevant even though this was a clear condition under the regulations. 
After that case they removed those words from those licenses.
Thanks for posting it up any way.


Cheers Dave


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## ad (Nov 10, 2006)

steve6610 said:


> the only other thing i will add is that no where does it say you can't cross breed, it states you can't breed hybrids, in my opinion a hybrid is 2 different species like a horse and donkey, and as all morelia are meant to be recorded in qld under one heading "morelia" it can't be illegal to breed a coastal with a darwin, if you choose to, but it is illegal to breed for morphs,
> we might disagree, but it's in black and white...................



So Steve, how do you keep hybrids and pures all as Morelia?
If someone wants to buy a jungle from you - what paperwork do you send them? McDowelli?
Are you saying you will classify them differently on the movement advice than your record book?
Can you show where it says "meant to be recorded as Morelia"


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## Retic (Nov 10, 2006)

OK given that straight from the horses mouth Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles Darwins are genetically identical surely even a cross is pure ? Bear in mind I am only talking genetically. 
I am TOTALLY against people selling any sort of 'cross' as anything but what it is. 



junglepython2 said:


> Question is will people try and flog them off as pure though, and how will we even know for sure, especially with the other thread stating that the DNA is pretty much identical.


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## ad (Nov 10, 2006)

boa said:


> OK given that straight from the horses mouth Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles Darwins are genetically identical surely even a cross is pure ? Bear in mind I am only talking genetically.
> I am TOTALLY against people selling any sort of 'cross' as anything but what it is.




In your mind a cross may be pure - the majority of herpers can and do recognize the sub-species of morelia. Until your 'horses mouth' releases a proven scientific paper that is acted on by the epa and legislation drawn, it is not valid.
(or of course until Steve shows us where the epa have disregarded sub-species and want us to write all our sub-species as Morelia - how does this work for Pogona etc Steve?)


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## ad (Nov 10, 2006)

Herping has been going on for decades in Australia - virtually every subspecies has been interbred before - Why arent these lines developed? Why arent they common?

Because - a jungle still looks nicer in pure form. 

Show me a pic of a nice hybrid - not jag or chondro crossed - straight Morelia sub-species. Steve's juvie is a 'nice' snake? - is this the pinnacle of hybrids?


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## Retic (Nov 10, 2006)

Steve, yes you are right all my Jungles, Darwins and Coastals are all under variegata in my record book because that was the name on the movement advice or import permit. I can't change that name in my book or it wouldn't tally. No sub species names are required or specified.


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## Australis (Nov 10, 2006)

So no one has sold you animals recorded under sub species?


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## junglist* (Nov 10, 2006)

i didnt actually see any of the albino snakes when i was in iwakuni hiking and herping in july. But i did see almost the cutest little brown python about 20 cm long, with distinctly triangular head. Just passing by stright across the track and back into the underbrush. Tried to catcht he little bugger, but damn if it didnt move at almost light speed!!!!

Saw one a little bigger from a little further away though.

As for the guy who has claimed that i made myself look a fool, can you please refer to the crux of my quiestion?? Please explain genetically the difference between an intergrade and a crossbreed. Is it just that you cannot do it?? IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE GENETICALLY.

Ethically is a different scenario, though i dont think that there would be so many problems if it can be done honestly and openly. It will purely mean that those specimens which are pure bred (though i hate the term) will be identifiable easily. I also think that the problem may relate to people not necessarily being intentionaly dishonest, but possibly being honest despite working on misinformation.

Think about genetic variation within even a species and the different phenotyopes exhibited by diffrent populations of the same species at different locations. The kangaroo island tigers are a beautiful exaplme of this. The liasis fuscus variation between australian and papuan populations.


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## Retic (Nov 10, 2006)

I have received Darwins, Coastals and Jungles under Carpet Python, Morelia spilota, Morelia spilota variegata and Jungle Carpet. 



Australis said:


> So no one has sold you animals recorded under sub species?


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## Retic (Nov 10, 2006)

There are no pythons in Japan, what you saw sounds like a Mamushi or some other Viper. Probably just as well you didn't grab it 



junglist* said:


> i didnt actually see any of the albino snakes when i was in iwakuni hiking and herping in july. But i did see almost the cutest little brown python about 20 cm long, with distinctly triangular head. Just passing by stright across the track and back into the underbrush. Tried to catcht he little bugger, but damn if it didnt move at almost light speed!!!!
> 
> Saw one a little bigger from a little further away though.


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## steve6610 (Nov 10, 2006)

ok dave, then whats a mutation? you see my point, even when it's in black and white you twist it around to suit yourselves, i'm sorry if you think what i wrote is bull,

as for the recording morelia under the same page, it was a member here that pointed it out to me, some might know him, his user name is "geckodan" ( i think, sorry if it wasn't you dan ) so to all those that want to call me a lier or don't believe it, you are also calling a well known keeper a lier, again i have also checked with the epa and yes you can keep all morelia under the one species, as for the other reptiles, i haven't checked them out because it doesn't interest me, so adam how about you ring epa up and ask them, 

just for the record, all my morelias are recorded under different names, coastal, jungle, darwin and so on, but what i'm saying is you can record them under the same name, 

all i'm going to say is believe what you want, i have shown you the rules i was talking about and you again twisted them to suit yourselves so in the end you will still believe what you want and i'll believe what i want,


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## rexs1 (Nov 10, 2006)

At the end of the day, almost everyone that raves about these crosses has no experience?

Steve I can see how you get line breeding of pure sub sp. and crosses confused.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 10, 2006)

Steve6610
How have I twisted any thing around my friend? I have simply asked you questions.
And again I shall ask, where in your post of the regulations does it mention morphs? 
As for your question to me,” What is a mutation “ I am not really sure and this is why I think it is important to get the definition from Parks and Wildlife.
Further more, why assume that I perhaps think that what you have posted is bull? I do not.
This is not about what you believe or I believe.
It is about clarifying the rules. Have your self a cup of coffee and smile.

Cheers Dave


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## Retic (Nov 10, 2006)

mutation n. (myoo-TAY-shun) 
Change in a gene or chromosome resulting in a new trait or characteristic that can be inherited. Mutation can be a source of beneficial genetic variation, or it can be neutral or harmful in effect.

So I can only assume that would encompass albinos, melanistic and hypo animals. Using NPWS own words breeding these animals is against the rules, of course if they are happy to bend the rules then I also assume their other rules are just as flexible ?
Dave, like you I am only looking at clarification.


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## Lucas (Nov 10, 2006)

We Have It All said:


> I would love to see a Diamond x Bredli, that would be an interesting mix,
> 
> or a GTP cross Diamond so we could have a Green and yellow diamond , a real ozie snake



They are a good looking mix


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## Australis (Nov 10, 2006)

Perhaps a gallery of Hybrids could be greated, so those who wonder what these beasts looking like will be able to see the result, with out further hybrid matings to see them...


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## Tsidasa (Nov 10, 2006)

i think everything that doesn't answer bundy's q should be removed from this thread.


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## TrueBlue (Nov 10, 2006)

the only trouble with that australis, is that you can still get a percentage of animals that look pure out of alot of crosses and this is where imo it causes major harm to the hobby.
Sure some people will be honest about it but even those animals once they go thru a few hands have a good chance of being sold as pure at some stage. That is the main reason im against it.
Alot of them will eventually taint pure stock and theres nothing that can be done to police it propally, especially if it is made legal.


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## NicG (Nov 10, 2006)

Tsidasa, I couldn't agree with you more!!!

Going off on tangents in threads doesn't help anybody. Even if you wanted to review this particular debate on hybrids and cross-breeding down the track, you wouldn't know where to find it because "Egg Thief" is hardly the first place you'd look.

By all means, have your debate and get as passionate as your like. But don't hijack somebody elses thread to do it ... particularly when that person was asking for your guidance, not your judgement ... !!!


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## cris (Nov 10, 2006)

Can ppl stop hijacking this thread, this thread is about the laws not whether or not you like hybrids can everyone stop hijacking it with opinions that have nothing to do with the legality in Qld. thanks


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## Australis (Nov 10, 2006)

cris said:


> Can ppl stop hijacking this thread, this thread is about the laws not whether or not you like hybrids can everyone stop hijacking it with opinions that have nothing to do with the legality in Qld. thanks




Cris,

A seperate thread has been created regarding the laws, this thread was about a persons issue with pythons eggs..lol


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## cris (Nov 10, 2006)

Australis said:


> Cris,
> 
> A seperate thread has been created regarding the laws, this thread was about a persons issue with pythons eggs..lol



Well i look like an idiot now i thought that was this thread
I typed in the wrong window.


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 24, 2006)

Gosh, where was I when all this was happening??? My favourite subject!!!

Well, firstly, (and I hope Bundy comes back to read this...) any other pythons in the same enclosure with an incubating female will continually disturb her - females trying to hijack the clutch for themselves on occasions, and both sexes trying to utilise the warmth produced by the incubating female by coiling with her. Males will occasionally attempt to mate with a female post partum as well. All of these will distract the incubating female from her task, so all other snakes must be removed from her enclosure.

The hybrid debate is always emotional, as is the "intergrade" debate - the term intergrade implies that there were once coastals, and diamonds living in separate populations, and the came together and "hybridised." This is probably not true. The Morelia spilota ssp found from northern Victoria right up the east coast is a continuum with local variations as their environment dictates. So-called "intergrades" are just a local carpet python variation (as are diamonds) and could have existed in their own right just as long as the others with which they are supposed to originate from. Port Macquarie carpet is a far more appropriate name for these animals.

Jamie.


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## Jones of the Jungle (Nov 26, 2006)

First I would like to say thankyou to Bundy for the interesting read, i have never of Pythons trying to steal eggs before, I hope all eggs hatch successfully.

As for the "To cross or not to cross" debate, I shall start a new post as not to promote Hijacking of Bundy's original thread.

Good luck Bundy


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## steve6610 (Jan 9, 2007)

just an update on these eggs, the mother hatch out 18 nice little guys on the 28th dec, all are doing well and so is the mother, since this thread the diamond male now has a new home and won't be visiting the girls any more, i'll post some pics later on of the hatchys, 
please don't start the fors and against about crossing as i've posted this on behalf of bundy5 to let you know the results not to start another hybrid debate again................


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## python blue (Jan 9, 2007)

how much will he be selling them for


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## Tsidasa (Jan 9, 2007)

glad to hear the baby's are all doing well, congrats bundy and i can't wait to see the pics


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## steve6610 (Jan 9, 2007)

thanks, i'll post some pics as soon as i can,


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## krissy78 (Jan 29, 2007)

Ok just how many people out there have owned or do own a cross breed dog. Some of these make better pets than pure breds. No doubt the same can be said for snakes. While I would not go out and intentionally buy a cross bred snake I would certainly not kill any offspring just because they had the unfortunate luck of being a cross breed. Some of these crosses are actually quite nice looking and as a pet would be perfect for anyone who did not wish to breed. Think about it. Humans breed with humans from other cultures and people mix labradores and poodles for Gods sake so people who are dead set against cross breeding snakes need to get a grip.


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