# Lies,Defamation,and Bawling



## PilbaraPythons (Apr 19, 2005)

For anyone who is interested, take a look at the complete clowns who post on the site Aussie sand snakes. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aussieliersandsnakes/message/55 
For some reason this bloke who goes by the silly name of secret squirrel thinks that he has had a conversation with Pilbara Pythons here on APS. He claims that we told him we wiped clean an area of reptiles and were proud of the fact and we said the area was hillbilly hill.
This guy clearly has us mixed up with somebody else as before today we have never ever heard of , nor have we ever had any form of communication, with this idiot who is defaming us publicly. The other clown who has joined the band wagon is Daniel who I believe was kicked off this site recently. Daniel clearly thinks that we are Pilbara Snake Catchers(womas4me). And here is some of the proof. Viewers should understand that my smart **** comments were actually four separate answers to four different smart **** posts by himself. Daniel has taken upon him self to bundle them together to make it sound like one post from us in response to a post that he made to Pilbara SnakeCatcher ( womas4me).
This man clearly has lost his last slithering brain cell. 

Daniels post
pilbarasnakecatchers,

Who are you calling a clown? I was probably keeping reptiles while
you were still sucking milk from your mums tits! Or at least before
you were keeping them... Not that that really matters.

If you would like to know, the first reptiles I owned were wild
caught, and collected by myself. And it doesn't take a brain surgeon
to figure out that all captive reptiles decended from wild animals.
What I am arguing about is the export rules! It's all about greed
and the mighty dollar! I am not totally against taking reptiles from
the wild, especially for you guys in WA as you are not allowed to
import from other states. What I am saying is, all animals taken
should be put into breeding programs and their progony sold to WA
keepers, then after a few years, you won't have to take so many from
the wild anymore! But no, you prefer to sell interstate for big
$$$$$ where there is a bigger market for them!
And all you can come up with is "Still good to see you clowns making
up stuff as you go, especially in regards to exporting." Would you
like tell us your thoughts on exporting or was that the best you
could come up with?
And to this comment - "Probably see you in the line for CB wa
womas" - No sorry mate, you won't be seeing me in line because I
already have my own! And you probably should be calling most of the
young "CH" instead of "CB". And incase you don't know what "CH"
means, it's captive hatched, not "bred"!

Look forward to hearing from you.

Daniel


http://australiantropicalreptiles.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?
topic_id=983&forum=16&start=40
>
> pilbarapythons Re: Please explain .. woma vs bhp
>
>
> No we don't feel good about all the hard work in catching 30
woma's.
> Thats because it wasn't hard work. We do however feel good in
> knowing that we have 30 woma's and you do not and never will. Suck
> Eggs
>
> And who said we didn't make huge profits not me pal.
>
> Now let me think about that one Daniel. Um um am I clever ? 38
> womas, 62 blackheads, 5 greenpythons,74 stimsons, Albino olives,
36
> jungles,and own two houses um um. Yeah ! I think I am clever.
>
> Any way its now getting dark over here and I must go and snatch
some
> reptiles from the bush so good night kiddies.


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## womas4me (Apr 19, 2005)

Looks like my secrets out now, no more stirring with you getting the blame. Never occured to them to ask who i was.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 19, 2005)

The lastest update is that the site has now removed many of the posts in question. Probably the ones that were defamatory I suspect.


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## pugsly (Apr 19, 2005)

thats disgusting.. 

shame to see so many complete fools out there.. im mean "suck eggs" what is he 2!

such a shame to see these people can hold so many animals with out being thrown in jail.. ALERT THE AUTHORITIES!!


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 19, 2005)

Pugsly 
No offence but I don't think you understand what this is really about. Go and have a look at this thread if your interested. http://australiantropicalreptiles.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=983&forum=16


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## pugsly (Apr 19, 2005)

thats skim reading for ya! lol sorry..


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## pugsly (Apr 19, 2005)

ok well after reading it all, all i can say is im confused! are pilbarapythons and pilbara snakecather the same person or fdifferent people?? Theres alot of mixed up minds on that site..

Anyways I m just glad things arent that bad on this site which i certainly prefer!!


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 19, 2005)

What I do like about that site is the kids corner. It for little kids to post. I think it would be a good thing on this site as well.


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## africancichlidau (Apr 19, 2005)

We had it here for a while mate, failed miserably.


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## Greebo (Apr 20, 2005)

This all stems from that thread on www.australiantropicalreptiles.com.
It is nothing to do with this site and I would prefer to keep it that way.


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## Retic (Apr 20, 2005)

I must admit I read the thread and laughed at most of the replies, if the snakes are collected and kept legally under the WA system I have no problem.
I did laugh at the fact that one of those involved kept asking me about day old chicks and promising to come and get some after advertising that he wanted them and I have never seen him. Oh well, that's why I like this site


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## NoOne (Apr 20, 2005)

I'm just curious, where did the jungles come from? I didn't think you could keep them over there but i could be wrong.

The way you reply to people isn't going to win you any friends by boasting about how many reptiles you are taking.
Can i also ask is there any limit to what you guys can take? When will the collectting stop?


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2005)

:twisted: New you were a troublemaker pilbara :evil: and same goes for that other little troublemaker womas4me :twisted: Read some of that dribble on trop reps and you didnt once mention the rack systym for torturing knob tail gex to get imformation and what about the new womaspilbara NW casino due for completion in mid july did you tell daniel about that. :twisted:


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 20, 2005)

dugadugabowbow
Who ever said that the jungles were held over here?
Who ever claimed to have collected the amount of reptiles mentioned?
That is the point I have been trying to ram home, never be too quick to jump to conclusions or make judgment without researching facts or by at least asking questions.
We don't make a habit of boasting to any body about reptiles currently owned, and you are right in saying that this won't win you any friends; however we had no desire to win the friendship of somebody who before our first ever post to him had already publicly condemned us with baseless assumptions. 
When participating in a public forum I am normally serious and polite to every body I post to, and expect the same in return. On the other hand if someone is sarcastic or rude without valid cause or just reason, I will not be serious and will dish out crap by the bucket load. That attitude might be, or seem like to some, a demonstration of immaturity or lack of self control, however like or hate it this is what makes up part of my character whether or not it is to my detriment.

Cheers Dave Mackintosh


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 20, 2005)

And yes oldfella I probably am a trouble maker. When I went to high school in New Zealand I reckon I just about had the school record for the number times I was caned on the ****. Gee those days were cruel.


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## BROWNS (Apr 20, 2005)

I also noticed they jumped to conclusions about exporting for profit when they don't even have a clue Dave!


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## keelow (Apr 20, 2005)

the guy is a tool and most know that mate... wouldn't waste time on him.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 20, 2005)

Yeah I think your right keelow. It has wasted a lot of my time and for what ?
Get a life Dave Get a life


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2005)

Dave,it seems like you have had a lot of mud thrown at you and to a degree other west aussies today,you have a right to be upset about it mate.It seems some people think they give you a licence over there and turn you loose on unsuspecting wildlife which cant be further from the truth.I read through the regulations over there and it is strictly controled and policed and anyone that thinks you fill bags with gravid womas and perthensis etc and sell them off for massive profits is dreaming.Ive worked out the profit on a west bluey for eg if you sell one for 250 you first have to pay roylty to gov and gst, staff ,petrol .other overheads and then more tax and the buyer interstate pays at least another 250 fees which makes it hard for you to do much business interstate,right!! The government in WA is doing the smartest thing cause if they dont legalize and control wild taking it would happen anyway without supervision and knowledge.Goodluck to you dave and other west aussies.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 20, 2005)

The facts remain that we have only ever sold two woma's an adult pair for $4000. and a pair of BHPs for $2000. No other Aspidities have ever been sold or offered for sale. We have however given away free, one adult woma and two bhps. It doesn't take Einstein to work out that we are more interested in establishing future breeding programs to make this venture worthwhile. This also doesn't mean that we won't sell BHPs or other species to the public if they so desire, because at the end of the day do have to pay bills along the way. Huge Profits Where!


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## Greebo (Apr 20, 2005)

Have you got any more BHPs to give away? :wink:


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 20, 2005)

You want to suck my what ? for how much? Just joking Greebo and no we haven't.


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## AGAMIDAE (Apr 20, 2005)

Dont worry be happy now...narnarnnarnnarnanr...naranr...as far as Danial goes (mate stop burning bridges coz its not a big country)


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## NoOne (Apr 20, 2005)

Dave,
You never said the jungles were held there, thats why i asked. I asked questions because i didn't know, it would be easy to say no the jungles aren't held here.
The other question i asked which has been asked by a few others over the last few months is how much are you guys allowed to take and do you have a time frame in which to do it?
That is a genunie question that i don't know the answer to so i'm asking you unless you have some problem answering it.
I haven't assumed anything other than that you had the reptiles yoou said you had, the other thing i assumed was that you live in WA which is pretty obvious.
I'm not taking sides on this despite the fact that i don't support the collecting of reptiles, i don't know enough about whats going on over there to take " my side" 

Steve.


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## hugsta (Apr 21, 2005)

> The other question i asked which has been asked by a few others over the last few months is how much are you guys allowed to take and do you have a time frame in which to do it?



I don't believe there are any limits on numbers duda, just a list of species of what they can and can't take.


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## Greebo (Apr 21, 2005)

> You want to suck my what ? for how much? Just joking Greebo



Is this another one of those strange WA laws?


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## Greebo (Apr 21, 2005)

It seems some people may have strained their groins jumping to conclusions.  
I wonder if they are feeling a bit sheepish? :twisted:


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2005)

Few people need to go the CALM site and read some regulations first.The gov in WA wants the buck on every animal collected there is no take what you want.Heaps get runover and more get destroyed by land clearing mining activities and agricultural practices if a few SW womas were in captivity years ago we might still have them. :roll:


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## BROWNS (Apr 21, 2005)

Are there no SW womas left in the wild?


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## womas4me (Apr 21, 2005)

If there are they are few and far between browns. The land there has been pretty rooted for them due to farming.


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## BROWNS (Apr 21, 2005)

Well that sucks big time...why doesn't someone allow a search for a few to establish them in captivity?So we have no True Aussie greens and SW womas in private collections or on the books,no oenpelis...or are there some in private collections?


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## Hickson (Apr 21, 2005)

As I understand it Browns, Oenpellis are only found on Aboriginal land, and they are very particular about who they let go there. They're even more particular about what you can remove.



Hix


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## BROWNS (Apr 21, 2005)

Yeah i know Hix,although Peter Krauss successfully bred them years ago after many years of trying.I wonder what happened to the offspring from that breeding....a shame that we couldn't at least have them in reptile parks and zoos


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## Hickson (Apr 21, 2005)

I believe the Territory Wildlife Park outside Darwin has them. At least, they were the ones who brought down an adult for Wild Australia Expo last year.



Hix


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## Brodie (Apr 21, 2005)

Oenpellis arent just found on aboriginal land.....

However, it is either that or KNP.. Both of which are darn near impossible too get collection permits from.

I have the pleasure too work with Oenpellis, and they are an amazing snake. However, I do think that they should be reserved for zoological institutions, and nobody else.

They are the kinda snake the deserves too remain in the wild. 

Peter Krauss bred his ilegally I believe..... 

There are Oenpellis held over in Canada... Saw a photo of one on Bob Clarks site.

CHeers


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 21, 2005)

I was just having a chat with Brad Maryan from the W.A mueseum a few days ago about the South Western woma. Brad has spoken to many locals over a fair period and he was telling me that some non snake people have described them down to a tee. It sounds rather promising to me and I think its only a matter of time before one turns up. I should talk Adrian into perhaps doing a mission down that way to see if we can and find some.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Apr 21, 2005)

> They are the kinda snake the deserves too remain in the wild.


why do these snakes deserve this and other snakes dont..excuse my ignorance ppl please
baz


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## Retic (Apr 21, 2005)

I agree with that, why are they special as far as being captives ? They are an unusual looking snake but I can't see what sets them apart from a collecting point of view.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2005)

Oenpelliensis Hix and Browns is a good example of a NT reptile that could of been collected in small numbers under the NT system of ranching.What good is it really competing with captive bred taking childreni and waters etc there? If there on aboriginal land negotiate if possible with the aboriginals a few have been found in surrounding areas (adjacent floodplains) The system in WA and NT would be better served collecting the less abundant animals than the very common animals.If 50 or so green tree pythons were collected in NTH QLD it would make absolutely squat difference to the animals status in the wild but be of benifit to many.And they WILL be collected legally or illegally.


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## Brodie (Apr 21, 2005)

WHat gives us the right too take every single snake out of the wild?
None, they are meant too be in the wild. If you are ever lucky enough too work with these snakes, you will see what I mean. There is just something about them. They dont deserve too be locked up in a cage... They are awesome snakes and should be left in their natural state. They are not currently under threat from anything, so what is the point in taking them out of the wild
?

I think that we should be content with the snakes we are currently allowed too keep. 

Two things.. No Oenpellis have ever been found on the floodplains... and if you took 50gtps away from the population, the ecosystem would suffer.


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## womas4me (Apr 21, 2005)

Browns, there are no restrictions on collecting the sw woma. Due to their rarity you would need someone bankrolling you for the amount of time it may take to find some IMO.

As for collecting on Aboriginal land, i have approached several but all wanted thousands of dollars for the privelige.

Oenpellis. Taking just a few doesnt give you much genetic diversty at the end of the day. Before too long they would all be related.


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## womas4me (Apr 21, 2005)

Brodie, who's saying to take them all. Some could be collected, bred from in situ and released, keeping only the hatchlings.

How many adders have you put into captivity or collected? Shouldn't they have the same right's as Oenpellis. If done right, and thats a big IF, it would be a great thing for aussie herpers.


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## Brodie (Apr 21, 2005)

That could easily be done.... However, why do we deserve too keep them? Most reptile keepers are complete twats and dont deserve too keep them. Sure, there are a few people like yourself who would actually look after them properly.. But what is the point? Why take something out of the wild for the bloody pet trade?

Adders are a lot more common than Oenpellis, and their populations is hundreds of times higher. The adders I collect are for scientific research, some of which may end up saving lives one day. I am not allowed too discuss the specifics of the research, however, you will find I would only ever take something out of the wild if I had a very good reason.

If Oenpellis were not as rare, and collecting them could save lives.. Well, I would do it, or at least agree with someone else doing it!

I have/will never collect from the wild for the pet trade


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## NoOne (Apr 21, 2005)

I would prefer to see reptiles like Oenpellis left in the wild and never come into captivity, why do we have to know everything about everything, it makes them a far more special animal that we don't know much about them, not that we would learn much about them by keeping them. If we want to know about them study them in the wild.
I felt the same about RSP, the areas they are found have no human contact but we still felt the need to " save" them.


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## BROWNS (Apr 21, 2005)

I know exactly where you're coming from duga,although for animals like the SW woma which are obviously nearly wiped out so collection and a captive breeding programme would make perfect sense and would save the species from extinction in the vvery near future.

Oenpelis don't deserve to be locked up in a cage and neither do gtp,laceys or perenties etc but they are and i'm talking collection and breeding mainly for zoos to be able to display a very different and reasonably rare Australian python!


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## BROWNS (Apr 21, 2005)

And as for gtp we have quite a few here in Oz and are allowed to keep them but none that are kept are pure Australian specimens,so with the anti exotic laws etc along with people who are purists someone should be able to collect some for a captive breeding programme which would work best breeding adults,releasing them back to the wild even in the same spot they were collected and then breed from their offspring and there would be no change to the numbers of gtp in the wild.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Apr 21, 2005)

no animal"deserves' to be locked up in a cage..i spose its politics now


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## womas4me (Apr 21, 2005)

If it doesnt happen legally it will happen illegally. Probably already is.


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## BROWNS (Apr 21, 2005)

Not sure if there were even licences when Krauss bred the oenpelis.....that's not the point what happened to the offspring and parents.He did put an article about breding them in the Herpetafauna magazine.I guess to some finding out how these animals behave and breed is as exciting to others as finding a new species would be.....


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## womas4me (Apr 21, 2005)

Funny how times change. These guys go down as pioneers, if it happened today they'd be criminals.


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## BROWNS (Apr 21, 2005)

Yeah seems only a few elite can get away with what they want these days.....look at Irwin,i saw a doco yesterday where he was up the Cape dpotting crocs etc and was looking for a specific monitor...he found one which apparently swims in the sea and can drink salt water which isn't a rusty monitor or spotted tree"scalaris" but a cross between the two which is becoming rare and he was allowed to collect them for captive breeding and research,J Weigel with the rsp's and perenties and some the offspring went to the bloody US....can't tell me that's not money orientated rather than the concern for the animal and if they went anywhere they should've gone to Aussie zoos or reptile parks.Why can he export and nobody else other than zoos can.I reckon it stinks!!!


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 21, 2005)

If my memory serves me correctly, The original Oeipelli's held by Peter Krauss were actually held on licence as carpet pythons and were confiscated.


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## indicus (Apr 21, 2005)

Peter Krauss, did breed Oenpelis legally....When the adults were originally collected, the NT law at the time deamed all snakes to be Vermin...whos bred them since?, zoo or private?....These snakes are only known from a restricted range....It's because of this i believe it's one of the most important snakes to try and captivily breed.....If a natural disaster was to occur, what ever it maybe?, they may find it very hard to recover.....


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 21, 2005)

Hey Indicus
Why don?t you ask Krauss the full story since you talk to him? My understanding is that many years ago he temporally lost his licence and had to give them up; hence they ended up back in the N.T.


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## NCHERPS (Apr 21, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> And as for gtp we have quite a few here in Oz and are allowed to keep them but none that are kept are pure Australian specimens,so with the anti exotic laws etc along with people who are purists someone should be able to collect some for a captive breeding programme which would work best breeding adults,releasing them back to the wild even in the same spot they were collected and then breed from their offspring and there would be no change to the numbers of gtp in the wild.



I know where your coming from, and sounds plausable in theory, but it wouldn't be allowed to happen in my opinion.
It can take 3 years or more to breed wild caught snakes, and during that time the snakes would be acclimatised to a captive enviroment and feeding regime.

I thought there were a couple of people in Australia who still had true Aussies, hasn't Graham Gow got some? And Steve Irwin(or Peter Buckley!) :wink: 

Ideally, if the QLD NPWS allowed a quota system where say 25 a year were removed and balloted off to experienced herps at a price, in maybe 10 years there may be enough being captively bred to ensure that it wouldn't make it financially viable for the illegal trade to continue.
WAKE UP Neil !! LOL!
I know it will never happen, but without dreams life would be dull ! LOL!


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 21, 2005)

One thing that I found extremely interesting is the full story on the discovery and following capture of the first described specimen. Graeme Gow told me this story many years ago when I was staying at his house. I remember thinking, how cool this story was and how it should be written down for everybody to enjoy. I have on many occasions told him that this should be done but so far it hasn?t. I should go back up with a tape recorder and ask him to tell it again.


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## indicus (Apr 21, 2005)

Thats true Pilbara.......


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## bigguy (Apr 21, 2005)

Speaking of natual disasters wiping out species, well isn't one hitting the NT at the moment. If young Oenpelies eat frogs we may have seen the last of them forever. What a shame some were not collected prior to the toad invasion. If more was know about this species and its dietary intake in the wild, we may have prevented this species being wiped out by collecting for breeding programs. 

It is known the RSP hatchlings love frogs, so when the toads reach the Kimberlies, byebye to them as well. At least there is a viable population now in captivity.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 21, 2005)

What a huge and scary statement Bob. Can there ever be a more important reason to establish a captive breeding program immediately?


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## womas4me (Apr 21, 2005)

It is already happening with mulgas in toad effected areas of Kakadu i believe.

Valid point for both species.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2005)

Brodie a few individual oenpellis have been found on the floodplain though most as you would know live arnhem land escarpment i knew some would have a go at it but its fact.As for the 50 or so green tree pythons damaging the population ,get real, people have been telling me how rare they are for years,utter ignorance. :evil: :evil:


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

There is already a captive breeding program underway......

A fair bit is actually known about the feeding habits of Oenpellis. Sure, not as much as we would like.. But the information is there. You will find they eat birds/mammals/lizards as youngsters. I suppose they would eat the odd amphibian if they ever came across them, though...

One thing too remember, is that the toads are unable too access the majority of the Oenpellis habitat. If you have ever been looking for them, you would know what I am talking about.

The cane toad is irrelevant too Oenpellis IMO.

They are not under threat.. Stop being so greedy and leave them alone!

We have enough animals too keep


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

They have not been found in the floodplains.....

Talk too Ian Morris.. He will set you straight.

Also, 50 animals from any population is a huge amount.

Perhaps you should study ecology before you say **** like that 

Hehehe this thread is begining too reflect its title


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## Fuscus (Apr 22, 2005)

Apparently Someone in NT is worried about the python and cane toads. Also note the commercial harvesting component
http://www.territorywildlifepark.com.au/recovery_programs.htm


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 22, 2005)

Taking 50 animals from most populations is in fact an insignificant amount, unless the population is already small or the individual populations are geographically isolated from each other. Other factors also influence a species/populations ability to recover from losses of individual animals. These include but are not limited to
?	population size
?	frequency and number of young produced
?	time between birth and sexual maturity of adults
?	predation rates
?	human influences 
?	habitat status 
?	seasonal availability of food and how it affects breeding capability of adults
?	percentage of young that survive to breeding age
?	whether the animal is a carnivore or a herbivore etc (where it sits in the food web)
However there are certainly exceptions and in some cases 50 animals would certainly throw a population out of orbit. However most species are still on earth today because they are survivors and have endured the various predation pressure set against them over long periods of time. Human interference with habitat and changing weather patterns presents a far greater threat to most species populations than the taking of individual animals. In our case we have witnessed far more womas and black-headed pythons killed by trucks (some still squirming when they are discovered) than we ever take for captive purposes. Trucks have been killing thousands of snakes here in the Pilbara for as long as Australia has had a Highway 1 and yet they are still found here in abundance. In the case of green pythons these are one of the most blessed snakes in Australia much of their huge rainforest habitat remains intact. There is very little threat of them being run over as much of their distribution has no roads. They live in a lush environment which has ample rainfall and therefore ensures a good year round food supply. I have been through much of their habitat on Cape ?York Peninsula and believe that several hundred could be harvested with little or no effect on green pythons in the wild. If this number was collected however it would contribute greatly to captive breeding efforts and the eventual increase in numbers would lead to a significant drop in their monetary value thus making poaching of the species financially unviable. I have studied ecology for 3 years at The University of Queensland and been on numerous expeditions to many areas on Cape-York Peninsula.

Adrian Hogg


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## ad (Apr 22, 2005)

I think that if they are in captive collections they will always survive, you can never rule out disaster - Cyclones, Tsunamis, Man etc
If they are spread through the country in private collections they will be forever preserved.
Adrian, Very true about the money drop leading to less poaching, if they were $200 snakes then nodoby would bother going to the cape to steal any!


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2005)

Oenpelliensis have been found on the flood plain on at least two occasions in trees.I heard that at rep meeting few years back apparently food is the motivation remember being surprised to hear it myself. 50 animals sounds allot but its not you could take a couple of gravid females,i know it dont sound great but most scientific literature says collecting on a limited basis has little effect on the pop as a whole.Its not just crap its sensible practice.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2005)

Crikey Adrien !!! :lol: Yeh ive found some places where there must be hundreds of spilota per sgu k. i estimated that on the nesting animals found and greens must have hundreds of squ ks in pristine country.


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## Retic (Apr 22, 2005)

From what I understand taking 50 GTP would have little or no effect on the population up there. I seem to remember seeing a programme on the Discovery channel (?) about GTP's in Far North Queensland and the consensus seemed to be that they were quite plentiful. I think keepers seem to think that if a snake or any animal commands a high price then it must be very rare. It just aint true.


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

They're definitely far from rare and as said if we had true Aussies and they were bred in big numbers the price would eventually drop the price and the attraction for poaching would definitely be less.I'm sure there are many pure Aussies in collections that are wild caught replacements for animals that they've lost.You could never claim to own a true Aussie green you've purchased from a breeder as there are none.I'm sure Irwin has Aussies...


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## Dicco (Apr 22, 2005)

I'm not 100% sure but I think URS's Greens are pure Australian.


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

Nah Dicco they're deemed Australian....checkout the past gtp threads and you'll find out exactly what the story is...


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## Dicco (Apr 22, 2005)

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, and I've had enough of the GPT threads to last me a life time  .


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2005)

Seen pics of a GTP a guy owns in QLD that was aquired from URS Browns he knows it is mixed thats why he had such a hastle getting it into QLD.It is a very beautiful green with alot of blue torquoise colour especially on its head.He prizes it and ide prize it too if i could afford it. :lol:


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

I still rekon if you took 50 snakes from any (or at least most) population in australian, the population would suffer, at least for the short term.

Who the hell are we too take FIFTY snakes out of the wild, of any species, when we now have many species that are extremely common.

Stop being so bloody selfish and be happy with what you have!


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## Retic (Apr 22, 2005)

To sum up the GTP situation, they are all exotics, they are grossly over priced and the price is being artificially kept high.


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

Yeah but they are deemed legally as Aussies and can be sold to the public...I've also seen a few from this line which were quite nice with the blue and have seen another line that was insane and i could have got Pure Aussies for 1 grand about 10 years or so ago bred by Rob Bredl but i've never been a big fan of em until i saw one recently which wasn't Aussie that's for sure....Robs adults and all the babies died as far as i know,so if His father was allowed to collect them once why can't someone do it again?


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## Retic (Apr 22, 2005)

The consensus seems to be that 50 animals from almost any population would do virtually no harm, this is assuming that the animals aren't taken from a 2 or 3 square kilometre area.
ALL the animals we all have originally came from the wild. Why is it selffish to want a new species ?


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

> To sum up the GTP situation, they are all exotics, they are grossly over priced and the price is being artificially kept high.


Yep too true,i've been saying that for ages.If all those Aussie Greens confiscated were kept and bred the price for greens would be at least half what it is now if not less but it isn't and i reckon something should be done about it.I wouldn't get an Aussie one myself but i would like some from some of the exotic lines around.


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

Its selfish because there are already a lot of GTPs in captivity. 90 or so in NSW alone I believe. I know of 12 up here... So god knows how many there are floating around.


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

But they're not Aussies Brodie.Are you for or against exotics?


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## indicus (Apr 22, 2005)

We take thousands out each night across Australia, for good!!!....50?, whatever?, is of little comparsion compared to the over-all picture.....Be a small price to pay considering the numbers that'll be bred....not to mention what we could learn, that may indirectly help us preserve their numbers in the wild.....


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 22, 2005)

Some people view conservation with their emotions others view it with their brains, a few people manage to balance their views between their brains and their emotions and follow logic and researched facts to find long term solutions to suit humans, wildlife and the environment . WARNING: Falling in love with animals to much can lead to emotionally altered/bias views regarding the management of wildlife. 
Many people believe that killing an animal means you are cruel and hate animals. I'm not sure whether this is because they associate murders among humans with hate. Aboriginal children love animals but they all have a big smile on the face when they club a gould's monitor to death. these children could not afford to fall in love emmotionally with animals or they would starve to death. Here's a thought, isnt it facinating how the rich nations of the world who have plenty (usually at the expense of the environment) are the ones who get so attached emotionally to animals .

Adrian


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## AGAMIDAE (Apr 22, 2005)

*Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*



BROWNS said:


> so if His father was allowed to collect them once why can't someone do it again?



Yeah I understand what you are saying, unfortunately its not just NPWS that stands in the way of collecting species such as GTP, our GTP species co-ordinator as alot to do with it none other than our own Steve Irwin, the man just will not let anyone keep then but himself.....and this goes for alot of species in Australia.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 22, 2005)

Many people on this site and elsewhere live in a pseudo world with city views, reptiles in little plastic tanks with a carefully mimiced micro representations of what they believe is the reptiles habitat, and sit on a cosy chair in front of the internet and argue about reptiles fiercly defending thier views. This is brilliant or at least a brilliant start (i to started this way). Get out there go herping, do some cross continental trips look at where these critters live I promise your views will change daily as you see what really goes on in the real world.

Adrian


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Yeah well i have never bagged Irwin like many and reckoned he was alright and loved his passion but now he sucks eggs big time.Buckley won that court case and yet Irwin still has his greens and won't give them back.I have one theory on this but probably best not discussed.


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## Dicco (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*



> I have one theory on this but probably best not discussed.


I would be interested in hearing this theory, you could pm me if you don't won't a bunch of 'experts' arguing your point.


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## AGAMIDAE (Apr 22, 2005)

*Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*



PilbaraPythons said:


> Many people on this site and elsewhere live in a pseudo world with city views, reptiles in little plastic tanks with a carefully mimiced micro representations of what they believe is the reptiles habitat, and sit on a cosy chair in front of the internet and argue about reptiles fiercly defending thier views. This is brilliant or at least a brilliant start (i to started this way). Get out there go herping, do some cross continental trips look at where these critters live I promise your views will change daily as you see what really goes on in the real world.
> 
> Adrian



Hell yeah.....couldnt agree with you more


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## AGAMIDAE (Apr 22, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*



BROWNS said:


> Yeah well i have never bagged Irwin like many and reckoned he was alright and loved his passion but now he sucks eggs big time.Buckley won that court case and yet Irwin still has his greens and won't give them back.I have one theory on this but probably best not discussed.



Dont get me wrong Irwin has done alot of great things towards conservation with his money, however he has done alot of bad things with his arrogance


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Yes Many are taken out each night on the roads.

Everytime I go herping (3 or 4 times a week) I find over 30 dead snakes.

BUt us collecting them is only adding too this toll.

A lot is known about both GTP and Oenpellis already.. well.. as much as we can learn from keeping them.

So agaib, why take them?


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Andy,

2 are Australian, this, I know for a fact.

The others would be exotic.. but its still a GTP, we have enough!


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

There are more and more new species popping up and becoming available to every herper,why not True Aussie greens.Aren't you interested in keeping pur Aussie specimens.

What do you mean 2 are Australian?Of all the ones on the books?If so i don't doubt it but none have been available in many years.

We couldn't get WA animals till just recently so why not Greens,NT snakes took from the wild and there was no need for a captive breeding programme for any of the species they caught and sold.What i like about pure animals and lets say i had a pure Oz green,i could tell people that this is what they look like from a specific area Iron Range which i couldn't do with the greens available today.Or this is what a jungle from Mission Beach looks like or this is what carpet pythons around Darwin look like etc 2 is not enough in my opinion but would be a start if they were a pair and were bred!


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## AGAMIDAE (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

With the diminishing habitats through human distruction its good to have a healthy captive stock...its just not up to zoo's to help out...captive husbandry tech, successfull breeding etc etc have largley come from us the amature herpetologist and not instituations like zoo's, I dont agree with taking from the wild for person $$$$ gains or even just to add to ones collection, but if we are to take from the wild it should be for a purpose for the species benift.


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## indicus (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Alot is known about Oenpellis already???; very little is known of there captive propergation....


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## hugsta (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

I can't see the problem in taking a few specimens from the wild, after all, that's where all our herps came from once upon a time. There may have been a stage when there were only a few bredli in captivity. I am sure that if 50 were taken, they would replenish the numbers without any problems. A habitat can only assitain a certain amount of any one species, if some are taken, there is an imbalance for only a short time, this will then balance out again over time. If a cyclone wiped out 75% of the gtps they would soon get their numbers back up along with everything else that may almost have been wiped. If we take fifty, they would replenish faster as there was no habitat loss in doing so.

I would also like to see more oenpelli in captivity, the more the better IMO. I also don't think it is fair to allow one person to start a breeding programme, it should be allowed by many more ppl. The RSP is a prime example, get a captive breeding programme for them and then sell/swap for $24000, that's just wrong IMO.


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

So we have only 2 Australian green pythons in captivity in Australia,most likely the world....yep we have enough...

Shyte hot avatar indicus!!!


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Very Valid points,

Honestly Ive never really thought of those before !

I will reply in more detail tomorrow when im not half asleep!


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## hugsta (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*



> I will reply in more detail tomorrow when im not half asleep!


You haven't had too much red wine have you Brodes......


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## Jadey (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

His busy playing guess the snake with me


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Only 40 bottles and 3 cases hugs!!

Im winning guess the snake


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## BROWNS (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

I bet there's more than that off the books,but on the books and available to us ther hasn't been for about 10 years plus.It's much like you wanting baritji on licence...some would like oenpelis and Aussie greens and much more which is happening with many other species,what makes the greens or oenpelis sacred to anyone but the aboriginals.Are they actually sacred to them or would they be bush tucker?


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## Jadey (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

I'm winning...you just don't know it.


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

oenpellis are scared i believe...

My Baritji are on licence  and were collected because there is no doubt they will be affected by toads


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## Brodie (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

how many have u got wrong


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## hugsta (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

As long as you're not playing hide the snake.....;-)



> Are they actually sacred to them or would they be bush tucker?


Bush tucker Browns, they love to eat reptiles.....;-)


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## indicus (Apr 22, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Oenpellis sacred?....to who???, you? the zoo industry?, what a load of crap!!!... the aborignal inhabitants of the local region maybe.....As far as who should be allowed to work with them?, someone who has the ability to breed them,....preferabily a good start would be the guy who's bred them, i'd say.....


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## hugsta (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

I think a few reputable breeders should be allowed to breed them IMO. Not just one.


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## womas4me (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

If it happened i reckon it would only be viable if a studbook program was established to ensure genetic diversity was maintained.

Brodie it's good to see your passion for these snakies showing through


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## BROWNS (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

One would be a start just like the rsp's which just became available to a few not long ago but others exported which p's me right off.Not that i want one,i reckon they look quite ordinary but they should be more readily available in the future and the same should be for oenpelis and Aussie greens...

How big is their area of distribution and is there any info on numbers in the wild"oenpeli"?I'm sure a few pairs isn't going to adversly affect their numbers in the wild.Preferably young specimens should be taken as wild adult animals can take many years to breed.Some species however may breed easily but the chances are better if growing them from juveniles to adults in captivity would make breeding easier from what i hear....


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## indicus (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

I agree, Hugsta....not just zoo's; those with the experience, time and passion to devote their efforts in regards to breeding them.....someone who's not limited by the constraints of a 9-5 job :wink:


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## hugsta (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

A couple of gravid females would get things going, and the adults could be returned to their habitat after laying.


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## BROWNS (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Agreed,shouldn't be hard to find with a bit of help from the locals either.


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## womas4me (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Taking gravid females from the wild. Tsk tsk tsk. No matter the conservational value or whatever, it would be opposed by a great deal of people who know very little but who have loud voices


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## hugsta (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

LOL Womas.;-)


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## BROWNS (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

What happens when gravid womas and bhps get splattered warming up on roads at night,what difference does a couple of gravid animals make in the name of conservation,scientific value and an added species for reptile enthusiasts...the people that have loud voices about this topic i think are aiming more at collecting gravid animals and selling them for profit,the others know little of what they talk about!


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## indicus (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

To true Womas....how sad; a species can remain a mystery, due to the politics and red tape involved,.....all for the sake of a few viable eggs.


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## hugsta (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

I think it is the best way for collecting of a species that is rare in captivity, is what I meant.


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## womas4me (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Agree, if managed well it could only be a win win for all parties involved.


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## Greebo (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

A round of applause to everyone that has contributed to this conversation without resorting to name calling or personal attacks.
When I saw there was 8 pages of posts, I thought here we go again. I was pleasantly surprised at what I found instead.

Keep up the good work.


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## Dicco (Apr 23, 2005)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*



womas4me said:


> Taking gravid females from the wild. Tsk tsk tsk. No matter the conservational value or whatever, it would be opposed by a great deal of people who know very little but who have loud voices


Have these people ever considered how may of these hatchlings will actually make it?


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## hugsta (Apr 23, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lies,Defamation,and Bawling*

Don't know dicco, but they will certainly have a greater chance of survival in captivity than if left in the wild.


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## rockman (Apr 23, 2005)

Just off the subject ! Brodie W , you must be pretty keen to name some-one that YOU believe have breed animals illeagly . :lol: If i was in his shoe's , i would have to come round and say hello  NICELY !


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2005)

Someone will get the ball rolling in oz in the future with greens and oenpelliensis and when someone starts a nice colony of indigenous greens they can be bred with foreigen greens. :twisted: Should of received the appropriate response from authorities in the first place this GTP fiaso,what authorities have done is to give weight to the perpetuasion of foreign animals over native.And people are getting paid salaries to do this,what a mess they have made,you would think QLD authorities would be onley too willing to propergate native GTPS stuff the foreign ones. :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## NoOne (Apr 23, 2005)

I'm surprised at how much some peoples views have changed on this topic from a few months ago.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2005)

I will keep the foreign greens dugabugs,just feel like the powers to be are corrupting me with their foreign fauna,i feel used and abused by skippy! :shock:


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