# Buying Jags



## cement (Nov 27, 2010)

Lets see if we can bust another myth. Or not.

The whole Guarantee thing re these snakes amuses me.

THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH THESE ANIMALS.

Seller " I guarantee, up until the point of sale, that this snake has never shown any sign of neurological problem"
Buyer " its been doing it since I picked it up from the airport"
Seller " you knew of the possibility of this"

I hope everyone interested in these animals realizes the irony of bringing out the truth about the neuro issue. 

It is great for the sellers of these retarded animals. EVERY single Jag, 100% of them ever bred and that ever will be bred, CARRIES THE GENETIC NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEM.

This now gives the breeders of these animals the green light to sell ANY ANIMAL IN ANY CONDITION. How will I know when the problem with the animal I just had delivered, was first noticed?


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## Shredder (Nov 27, 2010)

How about then with this day and age with the way technology is, lets face it your not buying these animals for a hundred bucks yet.
We start to introduce video ads.
Just so you can see for how ever long you want, what the snake is doing.
Maybe a seperate site could be set up or this one or all upgraded to accomadate this facility.


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## Defective (Nov 27, 2010)

can i just ask what type of neruo condition they have?


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 27, 2010)

anyone buying a JAG knows the risk and if they still buy then 2 damn bad i say do away with any Guarantee i say.
also this appears to be a little in the troll side as it was discussed in the previous JAG thread.
(not meant to be offensive just the way i see it, it looks like your after an argument)


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## cement (Nov 27, 2010)

Well maybe you could describe the risks to Lambert then.


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## Defective (Nov 27, 2010)

No, i know the risks i want to know *WHAT neurological conditions you believe Jags have*: eg, Epilepsy, Motor Control, Reflexs, Generalised Muscle Weaking?


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## scorps (Nov 27, 2010)

Lambert said:


> No, i know the risks i want to know *WHAT neurological conditions you believe Jags have*: eg, Epilepsy, Motor Control, Reflexs, Generalised Muscle Weaking?


 

It isnt one, Ive heard of heaps of different cases, although I cant say I have ever witnessed on first hand

Ben


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## Defective (Nov 27, 2010)

this was posted on another forum i found, hope it helps in this dilema
_*Some jaguar carpet python exhibit symptoms associated with neurological problems – lack of motor control, abnormal head movements, generalized muscle weakness, poor righting reflexes, etc. These symptoms have occurred, and been observed, from the initial breeding of the morph. To what extend do jaguar carpet pythons have this issue is yet to be determined – and many have varied opinions on the subject. There are people who feel that all jaguars show symptoms, even ever so slight, while others state they have not seen any signs of neurological issues even after breeding dozens of jaguars. Jaguars that show extreme neurological problems have been euthanized shortly after birth. Others, who have shown neuro issues to a lesser extent, have grown into adulthood – and some have also been successfully bred. This condition can be evident upon birth or show up later in life. It can be extremely subtle, or it can be painfully evident. Jaguar carpet pythons that don’t show symptoms can produce offspring that do, as jaguar carpet pythons that do show symptoms can produce offspring that do not. Many think the neurological issues shown in jaguar carpet pythons is similar to that of the head wobble shown in spider ball pythons. Mutations are genetic anomalies, and it should not come as a surprise that many do have different defects. The cause is unknown.*_

heres the link: Neurological Disorders in Carpet Pythons - Reptile Forums


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## cement (Nov 27, 2010)

Lambert said:


> this was posted on another forum i found, hope it helps in this dilema
> _*Some jaguar carpet python exhibit symptoms associated with neurological problems – lack of motor control, abnormal head movements, generalized muscle weakness, poor righting reflexes, etc. These symptoms have occurred, and been observed, from the initial breeding of the morph. To what extend do jaguar carpet pythons have this issue is yet to be determined – and many have varied opinions on the subject. There are people who feel that all jaguars show symptoms, even ever so slight, while others state they have not seen any signs of neurological issues even after breeding dozens of jaguars. Jaguars that show extreme neurological problems have been euthanized shortly after birth. Others, who have shown neuro issues to a lesser extent, have grown into adulthood – and some have also been successfully bred. This condition can be evident upon birth or show up later in life. It can be extremely subtle, or it can be painfully evident. Jaguar carpet pythons that don’t show symptoms can produce offspring that do, as jaguar carpet pythons that do show symptoms can produce offspring that do not. Many think the neurological issues shown in jaguar carpet pythons is similar to that of the head wobble shown in spider ball pythons. Mutations are genetic anomalies, and it should not come as a surprise that many do have different defects. The cause is unknown.*_
> 
> heres the link: Neurological Disorders in Carpet Pythons - Reptile Forums



And your point is?


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 27, 2010)

cement said:


> And your point is?


 
if you don't like them, don't buy one. easy.


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## mungus (Nov 27, 2010)

Well maybe people wont now..............................
Spending big bucks for animals that might need to be put down in a year or 2 is not a smart.
I personally did'nt realise the risks when purchasing one.


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## aussie-albino (Nov 27, 2010)

Hey guys anyone finding themselves with 2yo RPM/Jags they have decided they don't want PM me I will be looking for some in a couple of months maybe sooner. 

cheers
Scott


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

hey mungus
the situation is blown out of proportion. mine is almost 3yo,no problems,a joy to own. the only people that bag them is the people that don't own them. the ones with serious neuro issues is very minimal,but people just have to be aware of it and that serious issues "could" happen.they will get cheaper in a few years people will find out for themselves once they finally own one. i know of one only person who euthanaised their jag because of serious neuro issues, but i know of about 15 others that are fine. the slight risk is there , but it is minimal, and there is similar risks with other species of carpets .
cheers
simon


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 28, 2010)

I agree, Simon. It's being blown out of proportion by some. I understand that people are passionate about their views on Jags but surely first hand observations from people that own them do carry alot of weight? If all Jag's were as bad as some are making out, the USA market demand would never have eventuated and they wouldn't be as big in the States as they are today..


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## cement (Nov 28, 2010)

Quote slimebo " the ones with serious neuro issue is very minimal", 

Yes good call, but the sample size in Aus is very minimal too.

Quote Den " but surely first hand observations from people that own them do carry a lot of weight?"

Yeah, you would hope so.

I started this thread because i think the following quote required some attention. Its what the owners and breeders of these animals are saying about them that keeps raising questions. I haven't said that the problem is larger then it is, I said that 100% of the animals carries the gene. 

Quote from another thread - "What I meant was more along the lines that breeders such as myself and the ones mentioned along with "name" and "name" that have made some valid points in this thread, are placing guarantees on their animals that they have not showed any signs of neuro symptons from the time of birth to months later when the hatching has fully developed and fed on it's own for x amount of months before being offered for sale."


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## Klaery (Nov 28, 2010)

cement said:


> I said that 100% of the animals carries the gene.



Correct and because of this I can't see how anybody could ever hope to firstly breed it out or or secondly offer any kind of guarantee as I have heard mentioned by others. They are beautiful though and I am on the fence as to how I feel about them, but those ideas are just silly..


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## mungus (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> hey mungus
> the situation is blown out of proportion. mine is almost 3yo,no problems,a joy to own. the only people that bag them is the people that don't own them. the ones with serious neuro issues is very minimal,but people just have to be aware of it and that serious issues "could" happen.they will get cheaper in a few years people will find out for themselves once they finally own one. i know of one only person who euthanaised their jag because of serious neuro issues, but i know of about 15 others that are fine. the slight risk is there , but it is minimal, and there is similar risks with other species of carpets .
> cheers
> simon


 
Thanks Simon,
I suppose there is a risk in whatever we buy when it comes to animals.
I like them and have 1 lined up, so time will tell hey...........


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

mungus said:


> Thanks Simon,
> I suppose there is a risk in whatever we buy when it comes to animals.
> I like them and have 1 lined up, so time will tell hey...........


 
thats right mate.it is a bit of a lucky dip but the odds are good.
cheers
simon


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## ad (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> thats right mate.it is a bit of a lucky dip but the odds are good.
> cheers
> simon



This kind of sugar coating is misleading.
Just because yours hasnt YET doesnt really count as experience and something to advise on.
If yours was spinning uncontrollably, would you still advise the same and state that just you are unlucky, but dont let that discourage buying them, the odds are good - just not for me?
100% have the condition, it is a lucky dip alright, your aren't in the clear yet sorry.


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## Defective (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> hey mungus
> the situation is blown out of proportion. mine is almost 3yo,no problems,a joy to own. the only people that bag them is the people that don't own them. the ones with serious neuro issues is very minimal,but people just have to be aware of it and that serious issues "could" happen.they will get cheaper in a few years people will find out for themselves once they finally own one. i know of one only person who euthanaised their jag because of serious neuro issues, but i know of about 15 others that are fine. the slight risk is there , but it is minimal, and there is similar risks with other species of carpets .
> cheers
> simon


 
thank you for this, i don't own a JAG but if the neuro condition is almost undetectable like is said in my post quoting from another forum then why panic. obviously if 100% carry the gene then they shouldn't used to attempt to breed it out. I definatley think i would be easier if they were Epileptics (hehehe) because that can be idiopathic, genetic, or brought on by a febrile fever (yep all animals get them) and can easily be treated by stuffing the meds in the food given via the mouth. I've seen this happen.


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## cement (Nov 28, 2010)

Lambert said:


> thank you for this, i don't own a JAG but if the neuro condition is almost undetectable like is said in my post quoting from another forum then why panic. obviously if 100% carry the gene then they shouldn't used to attempt to breed it out. I definatley think i would be easier if they were Epileptics (hehehe) because that can be idiopathic, genetic, or brought on by a febrile fever (yep all animals get them) and can easily be treated by stuffing the meds in the food given via the mouth. I've seen this happen.



I am not sure what your attempting to say here.

I am only interested in debating the guarantee issue, and bringing light upon the facts that can be hidden from people that look no further then their noses.

Its quite obvious that this stirs up the Pro jag club, and so it should. Don't panic at all Lambert, there will be plenty of people quite willing to take your money when the time comes for you to buy. 

All I am doing here is trying to determine if these "guarantees/sales gimmicks" on offer really have any substance to them. Or, are they not even worth the smoke they are breathed out with.


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## gilmore (Nov 28, 2010)

cement said:


> Lets see if we can bust another myth. Or not.
> 
> Can I ask what myth we are trying to bust,im lost somewhat lol.


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## wokka (Nov 28, 2010)

Four years ago I bought 3 pairs of adult Womas for $5000 a pair, which is about the same price as Jags now. One pair exhibited "signs consistent with OPMV' in the form of lack of muscle control whilst in quarantine. I euthanased that pair and gave the rest to the vet for observation and they were eventually euthanased. Perhaps everyone shold avoid buying Womas!


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## gavgav (Nov 28, 2010)

im only new to the hole herp scene but i would still take the chance and buy a jag they look so amazing


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 28, 2010)

gavgav said:


> im only new to the hole herp scene but i would still take the chance and buy a jag they look so amazing


im new 2 and after doing some research i dont think they need a guarantee at all everyone knows the risk and if you dont then you shouldn't have one simple as that, that being said it appears to me that most of the people most vocal in disliking JAG's are people losing money breeding regular snakes because of the recent popularity of them right now.
just my view as an outsider looking in.


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## Kurto (Nov 28, 2010)

Who would give a 2+ year guarantee on any animal anyway? 1 month would be my limit... period.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 28, 2010)

I agree Kurt 
Quarantee that at the point of sale/purchase that you get a healthy python that is in good condition and feeding just like any other python sold .
There could be stress related issues dew to shipping of the RPM/jag , if so send it back for refund or exchange just like the normal senario with any current purchase etc.

Roger


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## Australis (Nov 28, 2010)

wokka said:


> Four years ago I bought 3 pairs of adult Womas for $5000 a pair, which is about the same price as Jags now. One pair exhibited "signs consistent with OPMV' in the form of lack of muscle control whilst in quarantine. I euthanased that pair and gave the rest to the vet for observation and they were eventually euthanased. Perhaps everyone shold avoid buying Womas!


 
Would you have avoided them if there was a 80%+ (as reported from o/s by jag breeders with far more experience than Australians) chance that they would show those same signs..?


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 28, 2010)

I also own a 50% jungle RPM/jag male at 11months old is 4 foot long feeding on medium rats and is fine to handle.
No signs of neuro issues yet ?
Roger


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## Elite_Reptiles (Nov 28, 2010)

Hasn't this been bashed to death enough already???

Don't want one, not sure wether to get one, but I heard this about them and I heard that about them.....it's really simple...DONT GET ONE!


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

it is also misleading to say that they ALL have major,life threatening neuro issues when they don't. i admit, mine isn't out of the woods yet.its almost 3yo,happy and healthy but there is also the chance of neuro issues happening later ,but it is the chance i took after doing plenty of research.i don't think any jag owners pretend that there isn't an neuro issue.we like them .we know the potential risk. we bought them. 
i still say there is a much,much higher risk of diamonds dieing from DPS then jags getting life debilatating neuro issues.i wonder why diamond breeders aren't being condemed for breeding diamonds.when mine died from DPS i didn't start hate threads.i knew the risks,took a chance and bought them and at the end of the day it didn't work out.i moved on.
if my jag did start developing severe neuro issues ,i'd be the first to state it and i'd just consider myself unlucky. no point getting worked up over it. the old saying,if you dont like them ,dont by them.
i also didn't buy my jag to make a squillion dollars as some people have stated.if that was the case i would have bought a male. i saw the one i liked ,it just happened to be a female so i bought her.all my animals are pets ,first and foremost.if issues develop later in life and a had to euthanaise her,i'd be sad because i lost a pet ,not because i lost $3000.then i'd move on.i know the potential risk and took a chance.i just don't agree with the "Jag haters club" making such a beat up over it and they dont even own one to realise they are making a mountain out of a mole hill.


ad said:


> This kind of sugar coating is misleading.
> Just because yours hasnt YET doesnt really count as experience and something to advise on.
> If yours was spinning uncontrollably, would you still advise the same and state that just you are unlucky, but dont let that discourage buying them, the odds are good - just not for me?
> 100% have the condition, it is a lucky dip alright, your aren't in the clear yet sorry.


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## cement (Nov 28, 2010)

Gilmore said:


> Can I ask what myth we are trying to bust,im lost somewhat lol.



THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH THESE ANIMALS



wokka said:


> Four years ago I bought 3 pairs of adult Womas for $5000 a pair, which is about the same price as Jags now. One pair exhibited "signs consistent with OPMV' in the form of lack of muscle control whilst in quarantine. I euthanased that pair and gave the rest to the vet for observation and they were eventually euthanased. Perhaps everyone shold avoid buying Womas!



sorry Warwick but the only thing I can glean from this post is that you bought from a dubious source, which may be relevant...



NatoRey said:


> im new 2 and after doing some research i dont think they need a guarantee at all everyone knows the risk and if you dont then you shouldn't have one simple as that, that being said it appears to me that most of the people most vocal in disliking JAG's are people losing money breeding regular snakes because of the recent popularity of them right now.
> just my view as an outsider looking in.



[deleted]



Kurto said:


> Who would give a 2+ year guarantee on any animal anyway? 1 month would be my limit... period.


No one said anything about 2 yrs, but if your serious about giving a one month guarantee then you are quite generous.



Jungle_Freak said:


> I agree Kurt
> Quarantee that at the point of sale/purchase that you get a healthy python that is in good condition and feeding just like any other python sold .
> There could be stress related issues dew to shipping of the RPM/jag , if so send it back for refund or exchange just like the normal senario with any current purchase etc.
> 
> Roger


Ok, this is the first real bit of discussion so far. Thanks again Roger.
Do you think it will be nerve racking freighting by air, with the possibility of the animal succumbing to the syndrome only having to be sent back at a loss to the seller, and then getting stuck with the animal. And generally speaking, can you see the other side where sellers may use the "you knew of the possible problem" line to on sell the animal that was sent back at a later date?



Jungleman said:


> Hasn't this been bashed to death enough already???
> 
> Don't want one, not sure wether to get one, but I heard this about them and I heard that about them.....it's really simple...DONT GET ONE!



[deleted]

These forums are a reference for knowledge for people, where they should be able to get some honest answers.
You can bet that even if the people on here are all top grade, no1 respectable breeders of nothing but quality animals, what about all the other sellers that just put adds on say petlink or Trader? I am giving you a chance to put some thought into what is coming down the line, to try and maintain some ethics and decency before these things start to get pumped out by the truckload. The problem is that only one person seems ready to talk about and show the real issues. Not a real good sign for pro jag.


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## aussie-albino (Nov 28, 2010)

Well stated Roger and Slimebo it about sums it up the information on the neuro issues is out in the open people will make their own decisions whether they buy one or not with whatever arrangements they have made with the seller guarantee wise. I think anything longer than a week would be to long a week would cover any stress caused by freight. If we want them we buy them if we don't we won't, circles won't change it. 

cheers
Scott


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## cement (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> it is also misleading to say that they ALL have major,life threatening neuro issues when they don't.
> i still say there is a much,much higher risk of diamonds dieing from DPS then jags getting life debilatating neuro issues.i wonder why diamond breeders aren't being condemed for breeding diamonds.when mine died from DPS i didn't start hate threads.
> if my jag did start developing severe neuro issues ,i'd be the first to state it and i'd just consider myself unlucky. no point getting worked up over it. the old saying,if you dont like them ,dont by them.
> i also didn't buy my jag to make a squillion dollars as some people have stated.if that was the case i would have bought a male. i saw the one i liked ,it just happened to be a female so i bought her.all my animals are pets ,first and foremost.if issues develop later in life and a had to euthanaise her,i'd be sad because i lost a pet ,not because i lost $3000.then i'd move on.i know the potential risk and took a chance.i just don't agree with the "Jag haters club" making such a beat up over it and they dont even own one to realise they are making a mountain out of a mole hill.



Well Slimebro, I started this thread to discuss without getting personal, but you seem very put out that that it was started.
There are other issues to discuss with these animals too, moral and ethical issues.
And the fact that some "believed to be" pillars of the herp hobby are sanctioning the spread of these illegally imported, genetically mutated snakes into our country. 
I am not asking for or interested in your personal story. Why do you feel like you need to justify yourself? You could just discuss here without ever bringing up the fact that you went through blah ,blah


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

Scotty1 said:


> Well stated Roger and Slimebo it about sums it up the information on the neuro issues is out in the open people will make their own decisions whether they buy one or not with whatever arrangements they have made with the seller guarantee wise. I think anything longer than a week would be to long a week would cover any stress caused by freight. If we want them we buy them if we don't we won't, circles won't change it.
> 
> cheers
> Scott


 
Hi Scott
i personally doubt that freight would set it off but possible if if it was a highly stressed animal,but it probably would have shown signs already.
i have driven mine from gladstone to the goldcoast for their expo.she had a big day with over 3500 people coming through,then we drove home.then we did the same for the ipswich scales and tails festival and had no issues.she was also at our local queensland reptile expo earlier in the year.i have seen 5 jags at the expos this year and they all looked like they handled the situation well.
the main time i have seen the serious side of the neuro issue is when 2 males are put together and they start combating.i certainly don't advise doing that after watching some video footage.
cheers
simon


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## Camo (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> the situation is blown out of proportion. mine is almost 3yo,no problems,a joy to own. the only people that bag them is the people that don't own them.


Hit the nail on the head.


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

cement said:


> Well Slimebro, I started this thread to discuss without getting personal, but you seem very put out that that it was started.
> There are other issues to discuss with these animals too, moral and ethical issues.
> And the fact that some "believed to be" pillars of the herp hobby are sanctioning the spread of these illegally imported, genetically mutated snakes into our country.
> I am not asking for or interested in your personal story. Why do you feel like you need to justify yourself? You could just discuss here without ever bringing up the fact that you went through blah ,blah


 
i'm so sorry to offend you sement.i certainly dont approve of animal smuggling,i have just accepted the fact that they are here to stay no matter how many petty arguments are started. sure they are the prodgeny of an illegal python, but so are the many thousands of "local specific" pythons in the hobby. 90% of these weren't around at the time of the amnisty yet new" Locality" pythons keep popping up each year which were obviously taken illegally from the wild,yet we all turn a blind eye to that.
i certainly dont think i am a Pillar of the hobby .i only breed a couple clutches a season and this season i only put one pair together.hardly going to change the face of the reptile industry.
i'm certainly not getting personal with anyone,just like you i am sharing my view,and my own personal experiences which may help people.no need to get antsy.
cheer up tiger
cheers
simon


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## remington (Nov 28, 2010)

Cement your like a dog with a bone.


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## aussie-albino (Nov 28, 2010)

Hi Simon thanks for sharing that, all that seems like she's faced a bit this year and seems to be coping well, I wouldn't be putting males together to combat so I guess I wont have to deal with that issue , I get concerned enough when my female Bredlis tries to snack on her husband . The neuro issues haven't turned me off the opportunity to own such spectacular animal , I think I agree with Roger's attitude of offering the same as you would on a normal animal. I think if I sent a healthy animal and on the slight chance it arrived in a different condition than that in which it was when I sent it for any reason (I've heard of pythons arriving dead after air freight to regional airports, I've never had any issues though with air freight) I think I would offer a refund for my peace of mind. 

cheers
Scott


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## ad (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i personally doubt that freight would set it off but possible if if it was a highly stressed animal,but it probably would have shown signs already.



Hey Simon,
You personally doubt airfreight could set a jag into neuro issues? I think you need to research what is happening in the local jag scene a little harder, this has been why we are debating.
A customer was airfreighted a jag that set it off into neuro so bad it was returned, euthanized and refunded.
This is where the debate has started from.
Cheers
Adam


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

Scotty1 said:


> Hi Simon thanks for sharing that, all that seems like she's faced a bit this year and seems to be coping well, I wouldn't be putting males together to combat so I guess I wont have to deal with that issue , I get concerned enough when my female Bredlis tries to snack on her husband . The neuro issues haven't turned me off the opportunity to own such spectacular animal , I think I agree with Roger's attitude of offering the same as you would on a normal animal. I think if I sent a healthy animal and on the slight chance it arrived in a different condition than that in which it was when I sent it for any reason (I've heard of pythons arriving dead after air freight to regional airports, I've never had any issues though with air freight) I think I would offer a refund for my peace of mind.
> 
> cheers
> Scott


i certainly agree with Roger as well


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

ad said:


> Hey Simon,
> You personally doubt airfreight could set a jag into neuro issues? I think you need to research what is happening in the local jag scene a little harder, this has been why we are debating.
> A customer was airfreighted a jag that set it off into neuro so bad it was returned, euthanized and refunded.
> This is where the debate has started from.
> ...


 
and i also stated,which you didn't include in your quote,that it could be possible in a highly stressed animal.sure it can ,and has happened but but you seem to be implying that it will happen to most of them which isn't the case.
i think any respectable breeder would give a refund under these circumstances in this case.
cheers
simon


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## ad (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i think any respectable breeder would give a refund under these circumstances in this case.
> cheers
> simon


 
Ok, so.... here is what we are talking about......the animals have the problem so why should you have a guarantee if you are aware of the problem???
How many days after the flight, to what level of neuro issue and detirmined by who - the customer or seller?


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 28, 2010)

Cement Quote
Ok, this is the first real bit of discussion so far. Thanks again Roger.
Do you think it will be nerve racking freighting by air, with the possibility of the animal succumbing to the syndrome only having to be sent back at a loss to the seller, and then getting stuck with the animal. And generally speaking, can you see the other side where sellers may use the "you knew of the possible problem" line to on sell the animal that was sent back at a later date?
End quote ,

I think that customers need to be patient if there are signs of neuro issues because of the stress of shipping .
If the RPM/jag did not show any neuro signs untill it was shipped , but then does go neuro at the new home after shipping , WHICH HAS HAPPENED OVERSEAS MORE THAN ONCE ???
There are a few reasonible and common sence approaches.
One if the buyer is definately not happy, he can return the python, and get money back, 
if the purchaser will to be patient to see if neuro issues clear up etc , 
say , one month period, then if the neuro issues clears up and the purchaser is happy in fully understanding that this stress related condition would more than like come back, probly during breeding , to which its been proven that RPM/jags can mate and reproduce while showing this neuro condition etc, 
If the purchaser understands and also aggrees to this he can keep his the RPM/jag to breed etc .
But if for any reason within a short period upon delivery , if they are not happy they can return the python.
i think this is fair,
but asking for refund 6 months later or longer ? after this cooling off period , ie one month,
does not seem reasonible to me.
I knew totally that RPM/jags can go neuro , i accepted this fact and i still purchased mine.
To this day my RPM/jag has been a pleasure to own, feeds like pig, handles great, only hisses a bit, 
and has not shown any neuro signs at all.
Im totally wrapped in my purchase from Simon Stone.
these are amazing morphs.
cheers
Roger


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

ad said:


> Ok, so.... here is what we are talking about......the animals have the problem so why should you have a guarantee if you are aware of the problem???
> How many days after the flight, to what level of neuro issue and detirmined by who - the customer or seller?


 
on my website i have a disclaimer aimed at sexing any animals that have been purchased from myself.if the buyer dosen't agree with the sex that i came up within a reasonable time from purchasing(2 months) then i will either give a refund or send another animal.
i would be more than happy to give the same 2 month time frame(which i think is more than reasonable) to any jag i posted and will add that to my disclaimer if i get around to breeding jags
cheers
simon


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 28, 2010)

> Your assumptions are quickly becoming a good source of amusement!


its not assumption, its fact anyone with half a brain and time to read various forums and know where to look will see it just as i do
i will assume one other thing i bet people like you abused and tried to belittle albino breeders when they came out too and look at it now theres albinos everywhere,
bottom line is there is a risk anyone who buys one knows it if you dong like jags then dont get one.


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## ad (Nov 28, 2010)

slimebo said:


> on my website i have a disclaimer aimed at sexing any animals that have been purchased from myself.if the buyer dosen't agree with the sex that i came up within a reasonable time from purchasing(2 months) then i will either give a refund or send another animal.
> i would be more than happy to give the same 2 month time frame(which i think is more than reasonable) to any jag i posted and will add that to my disclaimer if i get around to breeding jags
> cheers
> simon



That is quite commendable of you Simon, 
What is the fate of the animal after that?
Cheers
Adam


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## rick (Nov 28, 2010)

Hi Guy's
Just thought i would add that i have 4 RPMs and at this stage none have given me any signs of problems.
An adult female 3.5 yrs just laid 16 perfect eggs 
A male 18-22 months of age that has sired 3 clutches. 1st clutch 9 perfect eggs, 2nd clutch 6 perfect 8 infertile and last 12 perfect. The male was put with 3 different males for combat and has not showen any signs of ANYTHING AT ALL.
Another female 2 yrs powering on very well and i hope to breed her next season.
And 1 yearling.
At the time of purchase i was aware of the possibilities of something occuring but fell in love with them.
Touch wood i hope they will be healthy and go on to live a happy life.
There should be some really nice hatchies available this season, so if anyone is interested in some feel free to contact me in a few months.
I will be keeping them all back for a while to make sure they are feeding and are healthy.
Personally i think every time there is a thread like this the same argument get throwen up,
and the same people are for them and the same are against????????????
You dont like them dont buy? You like them realise like i did that there is a small (i think) chance that it may develope some sort of issue. Deal with it if it occurs. But the only thing stopping me from buying some more right now is cash flow.
Some of the new morphs eg: colours, patterns that are going to pop up in the future i'm sure are going to breath taking. They are a designer snake thats what they always have been and if they are making me and plenty more people a great pet there is no reason why they cant make someone else that aswell? 
I repect that some people are against them and some are all for them. All this aguing should stop! It gets no where. Yes people should have there questions answered when inquiring or buying them, as i was told, 
and then should be left up to the individual if they want to go through with spending there money.
Like i said b4 i love mine and have not regretted spending a lot of money on something that has turned into a python that looks 10 times hotter with age than what i bought it as?
Regards Rick


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 28, 2010)

Good to have even more first hand information Rick.
Thanks for posting
cheers
Roger


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 28, 2010)

ad said:


> That is quite commendable of you Simon,
> What is the fate of the animal after that?
> Cheers
> Adam


 

depending on the severity.if it was bad i'd euthanaise it.

Cheers for your input rick .some great info. it is good to hear from people who have actually had first hand experience with them . you have pretty well summed everything up and hopefully we won't have any more regurgitated jag threads.
cheers
simon


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## rick (Nov 28, 2010)

No probs Roger,
Cant wait to put that hot looking TRI STRIPE i purchased from you last season over my RPM female.
I just think that the people that are jumping up and down about them are people that dont own them.
That have a total dislike to them. The extent that they are carrying on but to not have any in there collection??????????
If you look back through i think the people selling them have been pretty up front about what can happen 
and that its out of there hands what developes at a later stage IF AT ALL is not the sellers fault, if the purchaser has been infromed about the posabilities then all should be a straight forward sale.
These are truely stunning examples of what a carpet can look like and from a few deticated breeders, hopefully we can raise the bar some more in the near future.
Regards Rick


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## rick (Nov 28, 2010)

Cool Slimbo i hope so to!
Regards Rick


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## buck (Nov 28, 2010)

For the Jag Keepers........ 

So it seems that at the moment we have a far lower percentage of Jags that are showing signs of Neuro when compared to what is happening OS. What are your thoughts on why this is the case? Is it the particular line? The infancy of the Morph over here? Pure luck?


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 28, 2010)

Its too early to say anything for sure Buck
lets just leave these issues to unfold so the questions can be answered later on .


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## najanaja (Nov 28, 2010)

''For the Jag Keepers........ 

So it seems that at the moment we have a far lower percentage of Jags that are showing signs of Neuro when compared to what is happening OS. What are your thoughts on why this is the case? Is it the particular line? The infancy of the Morph over here? Pure luck? ''


Maybe because realy there just a carpet python,
and here is their optimal growing conditions...
even though there captive bred, they still rely on native resources...

I was given a common Coastal carpet a while ago.
Kept in perfect conditions but hadnt eaten in 10 months...
The day i got it i put it in my outside avery (as i live in there natural location) for 3 day and not it had eaten 7 rats in 3 weeks..
being put back into its native environment was all it needed..
there was just something there that we couldnt emulate in a controlled tank environment..

Maybe this is what could help with Jags conditions?

Who Knows?


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## souldoubt (Nov 28, 2010)

buck said:


> For the Jag Keepers........
> 
> So it seems that at the moment we have a far lower percentage of Jags that are showing signs of Neuro when compared to what is happening OS. What are your thoughts on why this is the case? Is it the particular line? The infancy of the Morph over here? Pure luck?


 
As has already been said there's no real confirmation but what we do know from observation of many different species is that inbreeding does cause a higher prevalence of genetic diseases, so in animals that are already susceptible to genetic disease (like Jag's, lab retrievers -yes I do know these are dogs etc) this risk becomes much greater.
Other factors may come into play and once again theres no confirmation but I suspect we will see more problems as the level of inbreeding increases over time.....could be wrong though and hopefully I am - for the animals sake if nothing else.

I think that this guarantee at the point of sale thing is a joke, what if that particular breeder only really looks at the animals when feeding them? I would hope someone breeding jags puts a little more effort into observing the jag's but I don't know them or how they operate. A guarantee in the form of a statement that the animal was not showing any clinical signs of neurological problems when it left the house doesn't carry much weight with me. I would be wanting a thorough neurological examination done by an experienced reptile vet and I would be wanting the vet to write a statement of their findings on examination.....but then again I can be a little cynical and un-trusting.

I dont hate Jag's they are a beautiful animal but I doubt that I will ever own one because I do have ethical concerns regarding their breeding.

back to the original debate - a breeder telling me they guarantee there were no neurological issues with that animal at the time of sending doesnt mean sh-- to me, whats to say they aren't lying. This doesn't apply to the breeders that are prepared to do a refund of course


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## aussie-albino (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks Rick for that informative post from someone with RPM/Jags sounds like yours are coping with reasonable stressors without neuro symptoms. It is good for those of us looking to buy RPM/Jags to hear this side from experienced keepers.

cheers
Scott


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## rick (Nov 29, 2010)

Dont know really where the argument is with this one but no matter how big or small the gene pool is with the RPMs here in OZ dont we have a endless supply of out crosses here so in breeding does not occur????????????
Rick 








souldoubt said:


> As has already been said there's no real confirmation but what we do know from observation of many different species is that inbreeding does cause a higher prevalence of genetic diseases, so in animals that are already susceptible to genetic disease (like Jag's, lab retrievers -yes I do know these are dogs etc) this risk becomes much greater.
> Other factors may come into play and once again theres no confirmation but I suspect we will see more problems as the level of inbreeding increases over time.....could be wrong though and hopefully I am - for the animals sake if nothing else.
> 
> I think that this guarantee at the point of sale thing is a joke, what if that particular breeder only really looks at the animals when feeding them? I would hope someone breeding jags puts a little more effort into observing the jag's but I don't know them or how they operate. A guarantee in the form of a statement that the animal was not showing any clinical signs of neurological problems when it left the house doesn't carry much weight with me. I would be wanting a thorough neurological examination done by an experienced reptile vet and I would be wanting the vet to write a statement of their findings on examination.....but then again I can be a little cynical and un-trusting.
> ...


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## mojo73 (Nov 29, 2010)

One of my coastal jags has never displayed any neuro traits until this years cooling. She is now 30 months of age. The only guarantee with a jaguar is that they are co-dominant, good looking and will at some stage display a neurological tendency at some stage of their life be it so minor that it is barely perceptible to them almost looking as though they are cart wheeling through hoops.


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## souldoubt (Nov 29, 2010)

Rick,

That's because I was trying to stay on topic with the original debate about breeders guaranteeing the animals were fine when they were sent - which this thread was started with. The inbreeding comment was just in response to another post, it was by no means the purpose of my post. 

Inbreeding always has the potential to occur, whether it does or not is another question... however reading over my post I did write and "as" where i should have wrote an "if" - which may have given the wrong impression and can probably be attributed to my sleep deprived state at the moment


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## rick (Nov 29, 2010)

Same me and a few drinks do not help i probably read just about the first two lines and commented on it sorry mate 
Honestly from my experience they are not as bad as people have said thats just from my few that i have and a few people i know? 
Rick

PS maybe we can make them a little more stronger than the states ????????????


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## ad (Nov 29, 2010)

rick said:


> Same me and a few drinks do not help i probably read just about the first two lines and commented on it sorry mate
> Honestly from my experience they are not as bad as people have said thats just from my few that i have and a few people i know?
> Rick
> 
> PS maybe we can make them a little more stronger than the states ????????????




My goodness, Rick you obviously havent read the thread or are aware of current issues amongst the jag breeders.


How can we make them stronger than the USA has tried??

Because your 4 snakes are ok - she'll be right hey.

The Devil from this site may not agree with you, he has a *3yo animal just starting to corkscrew *everywhere that he wanted his money back for, 
He also supplied an animal that the customer returned and he euthanized the animal and refunded the money. The snake showed severe neuro after being shipped airfreight.

The reason these threads are brought up, not because we are jealous, because we have concerns that you all know what you are doing with these animals. AS this has been brought to the forefront - ie it was all tried to be swept under the carpet for months to 'protect' the jags, this is why this thread exists.


You have just brilliantly highlighted the "she'll be right" attitiude of many and expressing your ignorance to the problem,

So, your customers will have no recourse whatsoever after the snake has left your house?

Simon is offering a 2 months guarantee,
CarpetPythons.com has no guarantee whatsoever,

Barramundi on the other hand - wants to cull 'comprimised' lines and try to minimize the issued animals in the country,
He is giving good guarantees with his animals.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/seasons-pairings-148548/


I think Jag buyers should be aware of their breeders attitudes and how they intend to manage this issue,
Are you a responsible one or a 'she'll be right' breeder?
Cheers
Adam


ps Simon, so depending on severity, if you dont euthanize it - will you re-sell it???????


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 29, 2010)

ad said:


> My goodness, Rick you obviously havent read the thread or are aware of current issues amongst the jag breeders.
> 
> 
> How can we make them stronger than the USA has tried??
> ...


 i would most likely keep it so i can keep track of its progress for my own interest.
but if if i did sell it,it would be very cheap and the buyer would be made well aware of its condition and he will also be given 2 months to decide if her wants to keep it.

for people who might be interested,there is a great and honest thread that Roger started on the overseas forum. it is an interesting read from first hand reports from overseas jag owners and i would recommend anyone who is thinking of buying a jag in the future to check it out.
cheers
simon


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## mojo73 (Nov 29, 2010)

ad said:


> My goodness, Rick you obviously havent read the thread or are aware of current issues amongst the jag breeders.
> 
> 
> How can we make them stronger than the USA has tried??
> ...



That would meaning culling every jag /RPM within Australia as there is no line that is better or worse than another. It is a genetic defect which cannot be bred out, the carpets with jaguar patterning come with the neuro issue just as animals with a lack of pigment tend to suffer a higher incidence of skin cancer. Its a great shame but that's the way it is; all the information is out there and it has been out in the open overseas for quite some time now.

At least when the zebra jungle carpet spontaneously appears in Australia you will be comforted to know that there are not the issues attached with it as there are with the jaguars!


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 29, 2010)

The zebras are another topic .
But they are a pure jungle morph etc


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## mojo73 (Nov 29, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> The zebras are another topic .
> But they are a pure jungle morph etc



Yes, but the crosses will be something to behold...

Just take a look at the zebra jaguars for starters!


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## aussie-albino (Nov 29, 2010)

That is Spectacular 1 or 2 of those would be real nice.

cheers
Scott


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## Braidotti (Nov 29, 2010)

Just wondering how much are these Jags and other morphs going for now.


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## mungus (Nov 29, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i would most likely keep it so i can keep track of its progress for my own interest.
> but if if i did sell it,it would be very cheap and the buyer would be made well aware of its condition and he will also be given 2 months to decide if her wants to keep it.
> 
> for people who might be interested,there is a great and honest thread that Roger started on the overseas forum. it is an interesting read from first hand reports from overseas jag owners and i would recommend anyone who is thinking of buying a jag in the future to check it out.
> ...



Ahhh, this reply concerns me a bit Simon................
Why sell an animal with this servere condition to anyone ??
Sorry mate, but the word " cheap " has just taken on a new descriptive meaning.


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## D3pro (Nov 29, 2010)

mojo73 said:


> That would meaning culling every jag /RPM within Australia as there is no line that is better or worse than another. It is a genetic defect which cannot be bred out


 
A lot of people don't get this point. It is a genetic mutation that effect more then the snakes colouration. The neuro effect is part of the co-dom jag gene. You can not, by no mean what so ever, breed it out. The worst effected snakes will throw perfectly normal acting jags, while the best can throw the latter. 

You want to keep jags you have to accept this. The most breeders can do is make the buyer fully aware of the condition.
I seriously doubt "guarantees" will last long. Eventually people are just going to have to come to terms with it.
This is not a bite at any jag breeder or at anyone who's felt ripped of from buying a jag.

Cheers,


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## Gusbus (Nov 29, 2010)

the zebra one looks awesome but, alot of money to be spent on an animal that will tie its self into a knot.


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 29, 2010)

mungus said:


> Ahhh, this reply concerns me a bit Simon................
> Why sell an animal with this servere condition to anyone ??
> Sorry mate, but the word " cheap " has just taken on a new descriptive meaning.


 
it would be depending on the severity.its a case by case situation. if i wasn't confident that it would live a comfortable life i would be euthanaised. if it was having a casual head wobble every now and then but not having a problem doing every day things,feeding ,shedding etc,then i would either keep it to watch its progress. or if i put it up for sale ,the buyer will be made well aware of the condition and will be given 2 months to decide if they wish to keep it.i think this time frame is fair. i make a point to be very honest with people purchasing anything from me.if an python is a bit of a picky feeder ,i tell them before they purchace and offer my phone number if there are any issues.when i was breeding diamonds ,i made people aware on DPS and how to try and combat it. i can't give them a 10 year guarantee that it wont get DPS,i can just inform them of the issue.i'm not in it to make a quid,i do it because i want people to own and enjoy reptiles and get the right info.

So as a potential future breeder of a few jags them i'll go to the effort of putting the facts out there that i know of
-most or all have a neuro issue to a varying degree
- only a very small percentage that have a neuro issue severe enough thay they wont be able to live a comfortable life.some develop it earlier in life, some later
- no amount of outbreeding will get rid of it.it is part of the jag gene
-jag sibs don't get the neuro issue,they don't have the jag gene. if a sib has a neuro issue, its from another problem
-breeding 2 jags together will get 50/50 jags/fatal leucys
-they produce some hot bubs

a buyer is certainly at risk of buying one that may end up with serious neuro issues in the future. it is up to the buyer to do the research and up to the breeder to inform the buyer what can possibly happen to them. once this is done,the buyer knows the risks and accepted it.i am still happy to put a "guarantee" of 2 months on top of this incase an early issue arises.

as stated earlier, buyer be aware. if people have an issue with them ,dont buy them.they are here to stay.like them or not, we now have to live with them.

cheers
simon


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## buck (Nov 29, 2010)

D3pro said:


> A lot of people don't get this point. It is a genetic mutation that effect more then the snakes colouration. The neuro effect is part of the co-dom jag gene. You can not, by no mean what so ever, breed it out. The worst effected snakes will throw perfectly normal acting jags, while the best can throw the latter.
> 
> You want to keep jags you have to accept this. The most breeders can do is make the buyer fully aware of the condition.
> I seriously doubt "guarantees" will last long. Eventually people are just going to have to come to terms with it.
> ...



I totally agree with these points but I'm pretty sure you and others had a go at me for bringing this up a couple of days ago. "Sick of hearing it" was the wording from memory.


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## buck (Nov 29, 2010)

slimebo said:


> it would be depending on the severity.its a case by case situation. if i wasn't confident that it would live a comfortable life i would be euthanaised. if it was having a casual head wobble every now and then but not having a problem doing every day things,feeding ,shedding etc,then i would either keep it to watch its progress. or if i put it up for sale ,the buyer will be made well aware of the condition and will be given 2 months to decide if they wish to keep it.i think this time frame is fair. i make a point to be very honest with people purchasing anything from me.if an python is a bit of a picky feeder ,i tell them before they purchace and offer my phone number if there are any issues.when i was breeding diamonds ,i made people aware on DPS and how to try and combat it. i can't give them a 10 year guarantee that it wont get DPS,i can just inform them of the issue.i'm not in it to make a quid,i do it because i want people to own and enjoy reptiles and get the right info.
> 
> So as a potential future breeder of a few jags them i'll go to the effort of putting the facts out there that i know of
> -most or all have a neuro issue to a varying degree
> ...



I have to say I'm amazed that you would offer a 2 month guarantee on your Jags. Not having a dig at all here BTW. I think that if you were to tell a potential buyer of the risks and they continued to purchase an animal than it is at their risk. There are too many factors that could trigger the neuro which would be out of your control. 
Someone said in another post(not sure which thread) about the breeders honesty with the neuro condition at the time of sale. I guess if someone is continuelly dishonest and selling known neuros word of mouth would soon tarnish their reputation as a breeder so the onus is on the breeder to do the right thing.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Nov 29, 2010)

slimebo said:


> it would be depending on the severity.its a case by case situation. if i wasn't confident that it would live a comfortable life i would be euthanaised. if it was having a casual head wobble every now and then but not having a problem doing every day things,feeding ,shedding etc,then i would either keep it to watch its progress. or if i put it up for sale ,the buyer will be made well aware of the condition and will be given 2 months to decide if they wish to keep it.i think this time frame is fair. i make a point to be very honest with people purchasing anything from me.if an python is a bit of a picky feeder ,i tell them before they purchace and offer my phone number if there are any issues.when i was breeding diamonds ,i made people aware on DPS and how to try and combat it. i can't give them a 10 year guarantee that it wont get DPS,i can just inform them of the issue.i'm not in it to make a quid,i do it because i want people to own and enjoy reptiles and get the right info.
> 
> So as a potential future breeder of a few jags them i'll go to the effort of putting the facts out there that i know of
> -most or all have a neuro issue to a varying degree
> ...



I agree Simone, Maybe I should just say +1 or 2.


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## da_donkey (Nov 29, 2010)

i think i would rather have a 100% healthy snake that didnt look as "cool" as one that even had a slight tik.

And i dont think i would marry a really hot chick if she had tourettes.


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## da_donkey (Nov 29, 2010)

can we drop the RPM name and just call them jags now that they have come out of the closet?

donks


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## buck (Nov 29, 2010)

da_donkey said:


> can we drop the RPM name and just call them jags now that they have come out of the closet?
> 
> donks



+1

(Geez I hate +1....)Lol


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## D3pro (Nov 29, 2010)

buck said:


> I totally agree with these points but I'm pretty sure you and others had a go at me for bringing this up a couple of days ago. "Sick of hearing it" was the wording from memory.


 
No mate, I didn't have a problem with your thoughts, tho I am over this constant back and forth. What I said just then is the bottom line (so to speak). The rest is up to the individual buyer/seller to choose where to go from there.

Cheers mate


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## junglepython2 (Nov 29, 2010)

slimebo said:


> - no amount of outbreeding will get rid of it.it is part of the jag gene
> -jag sibs don't get the neuro issue,they don't have the jag gene. if a sib has a neuro issue, its from another problem
> -breeding 2 jags together will get 50/50 jags/fatal leucys
> -they produce some hot bubs
> ...


 
Breeding two jags together results in 50% Jag, 25% sibs and 25% fatal leucy's


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## cement (Nov 30, 2010)

To Slim and the others, a 2 month guarantee sounds quite reasonable. But won't that produce further risks, if say you take a returned animal back after 2 months, considering you have no idea how it was kept, or what state the OP's collection is in. If you were to then on-sell, cheap (i actually detest the thought of this) to someone else, aren't you now a possible vector for transmitting other disease as well?


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## PimmsPythons (Nov 30, 2010)

cement said:


> To Slim and the others, a 2 month guarantee sounds quite reasonable. But won't that produce further risks, if say you take a returned animal back after 2 months, considering you have no idea how it was kept, or what state the OP's collection is in. If you were to then on-sell, cheap (i actually detest the thought of this) to someone else, aren't you now a possible vector for transmitting other disease as well?


 
quarantine


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## JUNGLEJAGUAR (Nov 30, 2010)

danielk said:


> Correct and because of this I can't see how anybody could ever hope to firstly breed it out or or secondly offer any kind of guarantee as I have heard mentioned by others. They are beautiful though and I am on the fence as to how I feel about them, but those ideas are just silly..



Yeah.... they are beautiful indeed


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## Bushfire (Nov 30, 2010)

This isn't exactly on topic, so apologies to Cement. But after all the other threads about Jags they seem to have missed one point that could potentially have far reaching effects. We all know that the story of Jags is about at what point does beauty over-ride the ethical and moral issues. This is an individual choice but has anyone considered who else is looking in to the reptile keeping world from the outside?

In NSW animal welfare organisations are a real and serious threat to the hobby, they will view the jag story as further evidence that reptile keepers can not be trusted to make decisions based on the best for the animal's welfare. With government agencies more and more dipping their toes into animal welfare issues, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future some amendments are made to legislation prohibiting breeding mutations that impact on animal welfare or preceded impacts.

Getting back on topic, given that the jag condition is predisposed to a neuro issue, any sort of guarantee wouldn't be needed. I wouldn't trust it but then again because I know the issues surrounding these snakes I want not consider myself a potential buyer. Maybe the question should be as a potential buyer what guarantees would you be happy with? At the moment we are talking about handing over a huffy sum of money Id imagine buyers would be looking for something.


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## AM Pythons (Dec 2, 2010)

so if i buy a jag of 'someone' then 6 weeks later i see another 'better' jag i like from another breeder for less money, can i claim the original jag has 'issues' & send it back for a refund, so i then get my cash back to buy the better one?


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## PimmsPythons (Dec 2, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> so if i buy a jag of 'someone' then 6 weeks later i see another 'better' jag i like from another breeder for less money, can i claim the original jag has 'issues' & send it back for a refund, so i then get my cash back to buy the better one?


 
It would be a shame if the "better one" got serious issues later on though ,wouldn't it? especially when the first one was fine. 
i also think that if anyone who did that would be blacklisted and make a bad name for themselves,especially when the first one arrives back in the breeders hands and there is no major problems.i know most breeders have a list of troublemakers that they won't deal with. 
At the end of the day i don't think it would be worth the trouble.
cheers
simon


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 2, 2010)

AM Pythons said:


> so if i buy a jag of 'someone' then 6 weeks later i see another 'better' jag i like from another breeder for less money, can i claim the original jag has 'issues' & send it back for a refund, so i then get my cash back to buy the better one?



If i suspect that this is starting to happen , no refunds will be given .


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## AM Pythons (Dec 2, 2010)

i wouldnt put it past someone to try this though...


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 2, 2010)

Very true Tony


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 2, 2010)

I am always surprised to see how noble people are? How would you know that a buyer has done that Roger? Breeders cannot even stick together when it comes to setting market values on snakes! Why would one breeder let another breeder know that a buyer pulled this stunt? Especially in the extremely competitive reptile market that currently exist. The best guarantee is that the snake is healthy, feeding and disease free. Only time will show us what we need to know about this morph in Australia. The numbers affected by the neurological condition in Australia does not equate to 80% that the Americans have observed in their stock. Its early days still, and this could still change very suddenly. Its because the difference in percentages between countries are so great that breeders are getting upset about people blowing the whole neuro associated problems out of proportion. It could change over the next year?! Who knows, it might not. We just don't know. I am sure a lot will say "But why would it be different, carpet pythons are carpet pythons, regardless of where they are in the world!" I agree with this statement, but would rather have the percentages worked out over a thousand individuals than only a handful. This will be more sound statistically speaking. I am sure there will be some of you now that would have a go at how inaccurate statistics are? You can just never win on a forum. 

I am sure this whole drama will pass, like most terrors in life!


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 2, 2010)

The situation was a hypthetical one in that post.
If people did try to get a refund to get a different jag then ,
i would make a decision if and when that happens.
Yes i would advise other breeders to whats going on .
But breeders setting prices is a different issue ,
and a personal choice .


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## olivehydra (Dec 2, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I am always surprised to see how noble people are? How would you know that a buyer has done that Roger? Breeders cannot even stick together when it comes to setting market values on snakes! !



Mmmmm, collusion amongst breeders....who would have thought.


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## PimmsPythons (Dec 2, 2010)

i would ,as well, advise other breeders about troublemakers and bad tyrekickers.i have done so in the past and will in the future and i have also recieved info from other breeders about troublemakers.
it was a hypothetical question ,it could happen but i'll agree with Roger on making a decision if it happens.
cheers
simon


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## pythons73 (Dec 2, 2010)

How many breeders would just take back the snake without first seeing it.If it turns out there is something wrong,fair enough..But if some1 wanted to pull that trick(buy 1 and find a better 1 cheaper,return to buyer,just to buy the better one).Does it just come down to the breeder in Question,or WILL any people who breed Jags do this..As i no a few Chondro breeders and NO WAY would they take a animal back,as i wanted a pair,they couldnt quarantee as they were to young..So if i ended up with 2 males-2females that was my problem...So how many-who would just take the animal back with first seeing the condition..


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## zuesowns (Dec 3, 2010)

A lot of people will be biest on this subject, it's really hard to tell who to believe.


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