# Arnhem escarpment (baby Nawarran)



## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

Last week i was made look an absolute fool by mistaking an escarpment childrens python for an oenpelli . They look a bit different to a normal phase childrens and apparently the mistake isn't that uncommon, doesn't make it any less embarrassing though. They don't grow quite as large as the normals, and have a much more slender body and head and their skin changes colour in the light. The locals refer to these snakes as baby nawarran, which pretty well translates to baby oenpelli. 

Here's some pics first one is escarpment one. First pic really shows the difference.












And the normal type.


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## Braidotti (Dec 9, 2010)

Thats a awesome find


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## SomeGuy (Dec 9, 2010)

You see many monitors or elapids? Is Nawarran the local name for children's pythons?


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## mungus (Dec 9, 2010)

I would like to out as often as you do.....nice snake.
Never made a mistake.........then you have never made a decision !!


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

SomeGuy said:


> You see many monitors or elapids? Is Nawarran the local name for children's pythons?



Not too many monitors but they are still around. Difficult to hotograph though. Nawarran is the local name for both childrens and oenpelli pythons.



mungus said:


> I would like to out as often as you do.....nice snake.
> Never made a mistake.........then you have never made a decision !!



Certaintly not the first mistake, but definately the most embarrassing!


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 9, 2010)

Those escarpment childreni are very different , never seen pics of them before ?
I must admitt i did think it was a Oenpelli stuck in the truck /tray etc in the previous thread.

Good stuff Gordon .
Keep on searching for the holygrail lol
It must be so special being in that part of oz.
Hope you find your Oenpelli python to photograph .
Its a shame this species is not established in captivity because they appear to be rare ?

keep us posted Gordo
cheers
Roger


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

SomeGuy said:


> You see many monitors or elapids? Is Nawarran the local name for children's pythons?



Sorry mate didn't see the question about elapids. We haven't been seeing many at this time of the year, i thought we would be seeing alot more than we are. Mainly black whips and gwardars when they are about and usually during the day.



Jungle_Freak said:


> Those escarpment childreni are very different , never seen pics of them before ?
> I must admitt i did think it was a Oenpelli stuck in the truck /tray etc in the previous thread.
> 
> Good stuff Gordon .
> ...



Thanks Roger, it is a fun place to be!

I don't think we will ever see Nawarran real common in captivity. The few that have been kept were notoriously hard to keep healthy. I've been told and read that they get something similar to DPS and what the pygmy crocs get, even with presumably perfect conditions they still don't thrive. Hopefully they will be a specialist animal if/when they are available legally.


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## zulu (Dec 9, 2010)

Interesting gordon and you got pics,does look oenpelli like that first one,really narrow head thats different to childreni ive got here from MT Isa and Daly waters. 
Certainly a type of childreni worth working on.


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

zulu said:


> Interesting gordon and you got pics,does look oenpelli like that first one,really narrow head thats different to childreni ive got here from MT Isa and Daly waters.
> Certainly a type of childreni worth working on.



This was the view that fooled me!


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 9, 2010)

Has there been any surveys on numbers in the wild ?

Maybe they are a fragile captive dew to less genetic diversity within wild populations ? 
Possibly being a species under threat of extinction ?


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Has there been any surveys on numbers in the wild ?
> 
> Maybe they are a fragile captive dew to less genetic diversity within wild populations ?
> Possibly being a species under threat of extinction ?


 
There are no surveys that i know of, but i don't troll through journals so there could be a semi recent study.

I have a book by John Woinarski et al ('Lost from Landscape' 2007, can be bought from online NTPWS for about $30) that says the wild population probably doesn't exceed 10000 individuals and no sub populations contain more than 1000. The information needs to be taken with a grain of salt because even the authors recognise that the evidence for this claim is pretty well all conjecture. 

I think they could be more common than that, once you get into the escarpment country you realise just how big the place is and how many hiding spots there are, so there is no wonder no one ever sees them. But at the same time we don't know. 

I personally don't think they are under any immediate threat of extinction and i think the only real threat they have is fire (and more locally poaching). They have a very small range but within that range they can be found in all of the different environments, except for flood plains. To me that begs the question why aren't they more wide spread over similar habitats throughout the north.

The answer i think is fire. The escarpment country is pretty sp****ly dotted with trees, grasses don't grow real well on the rocky outcrops and i don't think indigenous people ever really lived inside the rocky massif, so fires are really starved of fuel and the only source of ignition would be lightning strike. But out in the plains and woodlands fires have alot of fuel and would burn easily. Which is what i think has restricted their range.

Now with introduced grasses fires burn hotter, in areas where they never used to and are more frequent. However, up in the escarpemts fires are still starved of fuel. My little hypothetical idea suggests that their range is getting smaller but still leaves room for them to survive albeit vulnerably. 

I hope that made sense, my english has taken a turn for the worst living out in a community.


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## saratoga (Dec 9, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I personally don't think they are under any immediate threat of extinction and i think the only real threat they have is fire (and more locally poaching). They have a very small range but within that range they can be found in all of the different environments, except for flood plains. To me that begs the question why aren't they more wide spread over similar habitats throughout the north.



I think its very dangerous to assume there is no immediate threat to them, for all we know they may have gone already! I would assume the opposite, that they are in real trouble and then hope for the best. Fire is indeed a big threat; changing fire regimes and hence changing plant communites could have a big impact on their prey. Mammal communities in the Top End have plummeted in the last 15 years or so and no one really understands why. On top of this we now have the Cane Toads and that may just be the thing to tip them over the edge. The toads have certainly had an impact on the abundance of Water Pythons(-), Olive Pythons(-) and Black Headed Pythons(+). Poaching may have an impact at easily accessible sites but much of their habitat remains well away from these areas.

They have never been common; I have seen only 2 (maybe 3), however a good friend who used to explore the escarpment a lot has seen 26 of them which must be close to a record. From my understanding all sightings have been in the escarpment country, its outliers and the immediate surrounds; fringing woodlands, riparian areas and monsoon forests ..... you don't really find them in different habitats. Whilst neither he or I spend much time in their habitat anymore, we don't hear of any sightings by others either.

There is definately good reason to be very concerned about the future of these snakes!

Does anyone know when the last wild one was seen?


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

saratoga said:


> I think its very dangerous to assume there is no immediate threat to them, for all we know they may have gone already! I would assume the opposite, that they are in real trouble and then hope for the best. Fire is indeed a big threat; changing fire regimes and hence changing plant communites could have a big impact on their prey. Mammal communities in the Top End have plummeted in the last 15 years or so and no one really understands why. On top of this we now have the Cane Toads and that may just be the thing to tip them over the edge. The toads have certainly had an impact on the abundance of Water Pythons(-), Olive Pythons(-) and Black Headed Pythons(+). Poaching may have an impact at easily accessible sites but much of their habitat remains well away from these areas.
> 
> They have never been common; I have seen only 2 (maybe 3), however a good friend who used to explore the escarpment a lot has seen 26 of them which must be close to a record. From my understanding all sightings have been in the escarpment country, its outliers and the immediate surrounds; fringing woodlands, riparian areas and monsoon forests ..... you don't really find them in different habitats. Whilst neither he or I spend much time in their habitat anymore, we don't hear of any sightings by others either.
> 
> ...



They definately are not extinct. I know of atleast one 100% sighting this year. I agree with you absolutely that they _could_ be on the brink of extinction but we don't know for sure. 

I'll say more in a minute...


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 9, 2010)

I think they are rare and endangered .
And something should be done fast.
Especially since the toads have arrived .
There are just too many questions that remain unanswered ,, 
It would be a different story if our main zoos already had established populations etc .
But unfortunately this is not the case.


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

saratoga said:


> I think its very dangerous to assume there is no immediate threat to them, for all we know they may have gone already! I know of one sighting from this year and several reliable sightings in recent years. I would assume the opposite, that they are in real trouble and then hope for the best. I agree that this is the best attitude to have toward biodiversity in general and it is the attitude i have. However, and i will qualify this statement by saying that *I am by no means an expert*, my personal opinion is that they are not going to go extinct tomorrow. Fire is indeed a big threat; changing fire regimes and hence changing plant communites could have a big impact on their prey. Mammal communities in the Top End have plummeted in the last 15 years or so and no one really understands why. On top of this we now have the Cane Toads and that may just be the thing to tip them over the edge. I get up into the escarpment country as often as i can, i am yet to see a toad atop the sandstone massifs. I have only seen them in areas that flood and have streams, not waterfalls coming from them. I'm not saying they don't have an impact but i don't think they are having a direct impact. The toads have certainly had an impact on the abundance of Water Pythons(-), Olive Pythons(-) and Black Headed Pythons(+). Poaching may have an impact at easily accessible sites but much of their habitat remains well away from these areas. Agreed, like what i said i think poaching and roadkills have a local effect on populations.
> 
> They have never been common; I have seen only 2 (maybe 3), however a good friend who used to explore the escarpment a lot has seen 26 of them which must be close to a record. I would looooooooove to see some pictures! Infact check your PM box. From my understanding all sightings have been in the escarpment country, its outliers and the immediate surrounds; fringing woodlands, riparian areas and monsoon forests ..... you don't really find them in different habitats. That's what i meant, like i said living in a community and working with children and adults that don't speak english has really put the smack down on my english lol. Whilst neither he or I spend much time in their habitat anymore, we don't hear of any sightings by others either.
> 
> ...


 
Check your inbox.


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> I think they are rare and endangered .
> And something should be done fast.
> Especially since the toads have arrived .
> There are just too many questions that remain unanswered ,,
> ...



It may be the case that they could be listed as endangered but right now they are not. Right now they are listed as vunerable in the NT because it is estimated that the total population is no more than 10 000 mature animals, there has been an inferred decline in their numbers and no sub-population contains anymore than 1000 mature animals. 

Looking into my crystal ball again, i think part of this classification is because there is very little data on the animals and like Greg has said it is better to assume the worst.


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 9, 2010)

We should start a save the oenpelli python campain and fund etc .
Or try too ?


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## hornet (Dec 9, 2010)

wow those childreni are gorgeous, is this form in captivity at all?


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> We should start a save the oenpelli python campain and fund etc .
> Or try too ?



Better than that and far cheaper would be to compile all the data that amateur herpers (and twitchers, botanists and the mammal people for that matter) have on the animals and their habitat. That would go a long way to painting a clearer picture on the well being of Nawarran and the West Arnhem Plateu. But the problem i can see with that idea is it getting into the hands of the poachers.


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## waruikazi (Dec 9, 2010)

hornet said:


> wow those childreni are gorgeous, is this form in captivity at all?



I'm sure they are in captivity somwhere, we don't need permits for childrens up here. They are pretty varied in colour and pattern though, they don't all look the one i found.


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 23, 2010)

Just found some Oenpelli pics pics on the web site 
Oenpelli Rock Python (Morelia oenpelliensis) / NATURE's WINDOW


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 23, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Better than that and far cheaper would be to compile all the data that amateur herpers (and twitchers, botanists and the mammal people for that matter) have on the animals and their habitat. That would go a long way to painting a clearer picture on the well being of Nawarran and the West Arnhem Plateu. But the problem i can see with that idea is it getting into the hands of the poachers.



Gordo, if they are as hard to find as the anecdotal evidence suggests, but the population is as you suggest it is, then 'poachers' will have little impact - they will collect very few animals. My view contrasts with yours re the impact of Cane Toads. The toads MUST have a serious negative impact on a top predator such as the OP, directly through killing young OPs which are likely to feed on them, and indirectly by altering the vertebrate (mammal, bird and lizard) populations. The flow-on effect of the Cane Toad invasion has to be massive, and if they don't kill pythons directly, they alter the structure and availability of food animal populations.

I'm sure I'll be pasted for being seen to condone 'poaching'... which I am not. I think, however, we need to look at the relative impacts of collecting an animal which may be there in reasonable numbers, but is almost impossible to find, versus the impact of altering the entire ecosystem in which a species lives, and on which it is entirely dependent, which Cane Toads do. It's a no brainer...

Jamie.


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## Waterrat (Dec 23, 2010)

Do we know what OP's preferred diet is at juvenile and adult stages? 
It seems that cane toads had no effect on coastal taipan populations and a swag of other species, which don't feed on frogs.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 23, 2010)

Michael, what is the preferred food of adult Taipans? I'm guessing that rats & mice would feature heavily in settled areas? If they're anything like Pseudonaja, I'd say that baby Taipans would probably be skink feeders, (fast, with good eyesight, they can literally run them down) and graduate almost directly to mammals, primarily rodents. Small pythons do seem to have a taste for frogs though. I wonder about the difference in diet between primarily diurnal vs nocturnal species too... frogs would be available to pythons which are more active at night. I understand that baby CTs are active during the day as well, which is why they can cover all bases in terms of what they can kill.

Jamie.


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## Waterrat (Dec 23, 2010)

ETs are mammal munchers from day one. They are diurnal, only active on very hot, balmy nights. The hatchlings are big enough to eat small mice, they actively forage during the day in search of ground-nesting mammals. I often found them with food in their bellies under sheets of tin, right next to empty melomys' nests. No doubt they take planigales and small antechinus as well. Adults feed on rats, small bandicoots and apparently also quails. Both juvs and adults never touch frogs or other reptiles.

I was just thinking, juvenile GTPs feed on frogs, yet their populations haven't been decimated.


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## waruikazi (Dec 23, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gordo, if they are as hard to find as the anecdotal evidence suggests, but the population is as you suggest it is, then 'poachers' will have little impact - they will collect very few animals. My view contrasts with yours re the impact of Cane Toads. The toads MUST have a serious negative impact on a top predator such as the OP, directly through killing young OPs which are likely to feed on them, and indirectly by altering the vertebrate (mammal, bird and lizard) populations. The flow-on effect of the Cane Toad invasion has to be massive, and if they don't kill pythons directly, they alter the structure and availability of food animal populations.
> 
> I'm sure I'll be pasted for being seen to condone 'poaching'... which I am not. I think, however, we need to look at the relative impacts of collecting an animal which may be there in reasonable numbers, but is almost impossible to find, versus the impact of altering the entire ecosystem in which a species lives, and on which it is entirely dependent, which Cane Toads do. It's a no brainer...
> 
> Jamie.


 
I really should put a disclaimer on the end of all my posts that everything i say is speculation and i really don't know much more about nawaran than the next person. I just have a personal interest.

I think the reason toads won't have had a direct impact on OP numbers is purely because of the habitat. Toads can not get up into most of the escarpment country. So the likely hood of the two species interacting is low. But i absolutely concede that they would have a flow on effect from other eco-systems.

The effect of poaching would be nearly impossible to quantify. But i can tell you 100% that there is a current black market that is looking for new Nawaran. When i caught the children's in this thread i had more than one person (who still thought it was an OP) trying to get it off me. One said he could get $10k for it and the other said he would split the $10k with me (i should have taken it... $5k for a childrens!!!). I know other things too but i don't want my legs broken! Luckily/unluckily there are no secrets in a small community, if one is found anytime soon i will find out about it and if it is sold i will find out who sold it. 

I think poaching will be having a local effect on the population, these are (apparently) a very large, sp****ly populated and apparently slow maturing animal. A pair (or half a pair) of animals removed from any one location could cause the local extinction of the species. I also think that road kill could possibly have a similar impact. But i don't think the effects of poaching and the road toll are anything compared to the effects of changing fire regimes.

As for how big the population is or isn't. I think it is bigger and probably in better shape than we presume it is. Talking to herpers that don't frequent the forum and those that do i have heard about alot more being sighted in recent years (by people who know what they are looking for, god knows how many people have seen them but not known what they have found) than i thought there would have been. Some accounts i have written off as BS but it still leaves quite a few stories. Many with photographic evidence (young ones too, which means the population is still breeding). 

A different species but still a good anecdote of what things are like out here. John Woinarski wrote off the Egernia (bellatorus) obirri as extinct i think in 2007 after extensive searching by people who know what they are doing. I have a photo from this year of one eating a snail (not my photo so i can't post it)! The land out here is so vast and inaccessable to people that we really can't know what the true state of play is. 

Now i'm not saying everything is all hunky dorey with the West Arnhem Plateu. This is all speculation based on alot of anecdotal (possibly BS) stories. But think about it, the first unofficial recording of the OP was in the 40's, then nothing until the 70's! They have never been an easy snake to find, so why would they be easy to find now?? 



Waterrat said:


> Do we know what OP's preferred diet is at juvenile and adult stages?
> It seems that cane toads had no effect on coastal taipan populations and a swag of other species, which don't feed on frogs.


 
I've heard speculation that the toads have increased the numbers of coastal tais due to the toads destroying the populations of mulga snakes and other snake feeders. I have some weak anecdotal evidence to suggest this is the case in the NT also. That said there was an NT coastal tai (now that is a snake much less common than OP's) that was found this year that had eaten a toad (right down to its stomach) AND been run over by a car... But what was the killer blow?

Another interesting tidbit i've found, that i didn't know before, from talking to the TWP staff and other herpers is the toads have had an effect on some snake species that aren't amphibian feeders. The toads apparently work at a higher body temperature than our frogs and pythons mistake them for mammals. I haven't personally seen a python dead from toad ingestion but i don't doubt the people who have told me.


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## waruikazi (Dec 23, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> I was just thinking, juvenile GTPs feed on frogs, yet their populations haven't been decimated.



And surely it would have to come down to the fact that toads can't get up into the trees. Same as they don't get up into the escarpment.


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## Waterrat (Dec 23, 2010)

Not so Gordo, juvenile GTPs (yellow ones) live and feed only a foot or so above ground and also in a guineagrass. They do pick up skinks and frogs off the ground.


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## waruikazi (Dec 23, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Not so Gordo, juvenile GTPs (yellow ones) live and feed only a foot or so above ground and also in a guineagrass. They do pick up skinks and frogs off the ground.



Well there you go. Do you have any idea why they don't take toads? Could it be the body temp of toads?


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## Bax155 (Dec 23, 2010)

When I saw the word Nawarran I thought this thread would be a good read, I'm glad it's turned from a missed ID into a talk about OP's!!
Goodluck on the holy grail Gordo!!


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## Waterrat (Dec 23, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Well there you go. Do you have any idea why they don't take toads? Could it be the body temp of toads?


 
No idea. Toads have been at IR for decades, so maybe the GTPs learned to avoid them. We don't really know if they had any impact on GTP population when they first got there. We still don't know the GTP population size today, so it would be hard to make any assessment.


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## waruikazi (Dec 23, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> No idea. Toads have been at IR for decades, so maybe the GTPs learned to avoid them. We don't really know if they had any impact on GTP population when they first got there. We still don't know the GTP population size today, so it would be hard to make any assessment.



A bit like Oenpellis!!!


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## Australis (Dec 24, 2010)

Pythons don't seem to be at particular threat in QLD at the hand of toads.


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## DanN (Dec 24, 2010)

Forever the eternal optimist, I still find it hard to believe that Oenpelli's are "near the brink". I know many of you disagree, but...

We know how big Oenpelli's are at hatching. I cannot remember their specific measurements, however they are larger than any Australian snake - larger still than scrub or BHP's. These guys are likely to be eating mice from day one!

I agree, toads MAY have had an indirect impact on these snakes. But isn't this species the luckiest of all those inhabiting the Arhemland escarpment - large, capable of consuming a diverse range of prey; slow metabolic rate, capable of going long periods without food. Besides, a lot of minds have been trying to eradicate toads for a long while now and it hasn't happened. Toads have likely already had their greatest effect on species living there. We're not so worred about childrens pythons which we know DO feed on frogs.

Hopefully, Greg Miles will get some into captivity to establish a colony and so that we can actually learn something about this snake.

In the meantime, their must be a least one scientist willing to study this species. "Too hard" everyone says. Why? There is a female-biased sexual size dimorphism and we already know this species aggregates. Find a female (the hard part) and throw a transmitter in and hopefully she'll lead you to a bunch of horny males, who can be tracked and will hopefully lead you to more females - we don't know until we try.

Gordo has made some very valid points. These snakes weren't found until the 1970's (by westerners), they are obviously very good at not being found - and the inacesibilty of their range doesn't help.
I too would hate to see this snake disappear forever but, I just can't begin to speculate anything when we know nothing. 

Rick Shine thought diamod pytohns were rare until he tracked them. Sure many people come across this species but look at the population of the south east - more than 4 million - not quite that many in Oenpelli... Same applies for green pythons, there are tonnes if you know when and where to look.

In Oenpelli's, given we know very little, this scenario could be equally as plausible as the "near extinction" scenario hypothesised by so many.


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## Waterrat (Dec 24, 2010)

Dan, I can see a solid PhD project in this for you. I'll be your assistant.


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## waruikazi (Dec 24, 2010)

And i'll be your assistant to your assistant!


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## jamesn48 (Dec 24, 2010)

It would be pretty fun doing a phd on the OP, considering just about everything you find out about these snakes will be new to science.


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## Waterrat (Dec 24, 2010)

Yah, it would be fun but in reality it wouldn't be much of a science. It would take a brave man / woman to take up such project in such wast and inaccessible area. Dave Wilson sunked his teeth into fairly ambitious project with GTPs, at least he had plenty of snakes to work with. I met a guy who proposed to do a MSc on the Julia Creek Dunnart - he only ever trapped one specimen! I don't think he submitted theses. LOL


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## waruikazi (Dec 24, 2010)

jamesn48 said:


> It would be pretty fun doing a phd on the OP, considering just about everything you find out about these snakes will be new to science.



I think it would be incredibly time consuming, expensive, frustrating and the possibility of failure incredibly high (from not finding what you're looking for)!

And a you would have all the jealousies from other herpersgetting in your way! Not good reasons to not do it though!


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## pythons73 (Dec 24, 2010)

A little of topic...But John Weigel and others did take a while to discover the Rough Scaled Pythons..It took them a few days-nights to find some..WHY cant a group of people find and track any..I would love to see a population in captivity for all us to admire-own and learn from them...I do hope sometime in the near future something-someone can track and record some information...How can anyone determine what size population there is with Oenpelli or even Greens in the wild..Estimate..


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## tropicbreeze (Dec 27, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I think the reason toads won't have had a direct impact on OP numbers is purely because of the habitat. Toads can not get up into most of the escarpment country. So the likely hood of the two species interacting is low. But i absolutely concede that they would have a flow on effect from other eco-systems.


 
Have to disagree about toads not being able to get up into most of the escarpment country. That's how the toads got into Kakadu, over the escarpment. They didn't go around it. Of course they won't get up cliff faces but they will work their way up steep gullies and still get to the top. That's where I first came across the frontline of the toad invasion, they were in their hundreds, up top in the escarpment. And you see their tadpoles in many of the creeks up there.


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## DanTheMan (Dec 27, 2010)

I was in Kakadu about 4 weeks ago looking for Oenpelli's in a spot where they are often found (well often as far as Oenpelli's go) and there was plenty of toads around, after killing 3 toads sitting in one spot, we walked 10 metres and found a Northern Adder. I have seen pictures of an Oenpelli found in the area we were herping from about a month or 2 before we went there. Unfortunately due to our impatiens and intolerants of flies we only spent one night in Kakadu. Also talked to a photographer there in Kakadu who was after some plants in the area who said he found a few in the area pre-cane toad days, although he hadn't tried looking for them recently.


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## waruikazi (Dec 27, 2010)

tropicbreeze said:


> Have to disagree about toads not being able to get up into most of the escarpment country. That's how the toads got into Kakadu, over the escarpment. They didn't go around it. Of course they won't get up cliff faces but they will work their way up steep gullies and still get to the top. That's where I first came across the frontline of the toad invasion, they were in their hundreds, up top in the escarpment. And you see their tadpoles in many of the creeks up there.



They certaintly did go around it. The escarpment is like an island of rock in the middle of the top end, it doesn't go all the way to the coast and stops short of Katherine. There are toads both north and south of the escarpment country so they definately went around it lol. 

In most of the escarpment i get up into i haven't see any toads, low lying areas with streams flowing from them i have seen them. But maybe they are just doing a good job of hiding from me.


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## tropicbreeze (Dec 28, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> They certaintly did go around it. The escarpment is like an island of rock in the middle of the top end, it doesn't go all the way to the coast and stops short of Katherine. There are toads both north and south of the escarpment country so they definately went around it lol.
> 
> In most of the escarpment i get up into i haven't see any toads, low lying areas with streams flowing from them i have seen them. But maybe they are just doing a good job of hiding from me.


 
Of course they did end up getting around it, eventually. It stands to reason, they're right across the Top End, even into WA. But the first toads into Kakadu got up on the southern side of the escarpment and then moved down through the South Alligator catchment. The first indications were dead Freshies with toads in their bellies. It surprised a lot of people because it was thought the escarpment would slow them, but it didn't. 

They similarly got down the East Alligator and wiped out the Quolls that had been radio collared. The Kakadu toads were well on their way to Darwin before the ones further south made their way around the escarpment. And well before the toads got anywhere near Darwin they were in their hundreds up in the escarpment east of Katherine. You only have to go up there to see them.


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## waruikazi (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm guessing that you mean up through the south alligator catchment but i get what you're saying. 

I'm talking from an Oenpelli perspective here but to me and in my experience the South Alligator catchment does not have very much to do with the escarpment (from my understanding which i think is better than most because rainfall directly effects me and my mobility, i watch the radar and the catchment areas pretty closely at this time of year). The south catchment and the river skirts the west of the escarpment. The east can be predicted pretty well by the rainfall in Katherine but again the catchment is to the south but to the east of the south's catchment. The runoff that we get out of the escarpmetn this far north is collected in the escarpment country.

By your own reasoning the toads moved up on a southern path not an easterly path through the escarpment which is what i would have expected if they moved into Kakadu through the escarpment. But like i said i totally and uttely concede they could be up here and it is just that i haven't seen them. 

I haven't read up on the the toads march out this way so like most of what i say it could be about as wrong as it gets. My ideas are usually assumptions based on my experience, which i try to make clear. Tropicbreeze i'm open to being proven wrong and i listen to good info, i would love to know who you are and your experience in this area. 



tropicbreeze said:


> Of course they did end up getting around it, eventually. It stands to reason, they're right across the Top End, even into WA. But the first toads into Kakadu got up on the southern side of the escarpment and then moved down through the South Alligator catchment. The first indications were dead Freshies with toads in their bellies. It surprised a lot of people because it was thought the escarpment would slow them, but it didn't.
> 
> They similarly got down the East Alligator and wiped out the Quolls that had been radio collared. The Kakadu toads were well on their way to Darwin before the ones further south made their way around the escarpment. And well before the toads got anywhere near Darwin they were in their hundreds up in the escarpment east of Katherine. You only have to go up there to see them.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 28, 2010)

Are you all taking into account it's not just the ambulatory adult toads that move the front forward - the annual flooding of rivers would move toad tadpoles vast distances, and into areas you may not think you'd find them if they were 'walkers'. The species is incredibly pervasive.

Jamie


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## tropicbreeze (Dec 28, 2010)

Waruikazi, I guess if you don't want to believe it you won't believe it. But you appear to be unfamiliar with the South Alligator. It's head waters are up in the escarpment. It has major tributaries, like Koolpin and Fisher Creeks, also feeding it off the escarpment. And the Mary River, which is to the west of the South, also has its head waters in the escarpment.


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## waruikazi (Dec 29, 2010)

tropicbreeze said:


> Waruikazi, I guess if you don't want to believe it you won't believe it. But you appear to be unfamiliar with the South Alligator. It's head waters are up in the escarpment. It has major tributaries, like Koolpin and Fisher Creeks, also feeding it off the escarpment. And the Mary River, which is to the west of the South, also has its head waters in the escarpment.


 
Tropo i'm genuinely asking you the questions. I'm more than open to accepting that i'm wrong i think i have made that exceptionally clear in my other posts (certaintly wouldn't be the first time, even this thread came about because i made a pretty embarassing mistake), i'm assuming you have some kind of expertise in this area otherwise you wouldn't have involved yourself in this thread. But i wont beleive something blindly just because someone said so. 

My understandings off the catchment areas come from the BOM website and backed up from my experience living out here. Rain in the Katherine region brings the East Alligator up, but rain North East of Katherine gets all our waterfalls flowing and brings our floodplain up (and brings the delicious magpie geese to us!). What happens on the other side of the East doesn't effect me much so i don't follow it. 

As far as toads go, i have not seen them atop of the escarpment in my area, i have seen them in the low lying areas especially where there are streams. All that means is that i haven't seen them up in the escarpment and does not mean that they aren't there. I'm sure i can be forgiven for wishfully thinking that there are still no toads up there. 

But even if they are up there i'm not convinced yet that they would have a direct impact on oenpellli numbers.


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