# It's all in the colour



## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

There are 3 threads on ball python x this and that, people wanting exotics, jags, etc, etc..

Is the colour of the snake all that people admire? If it is, that's pretty sad and demonstrates the shallow interest in reptiles. "colourful pets" - is that all? 

I apologise for the negativity in this post but it's almost painful to read "I wont one", whenever a photo of some screwed up hybrid appears on here - like kids in a lolly shop.


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## Owzi (Apr 17, 2011)

Couldn't agree more Michael!
I do not get the interest at all.
I recently got myself some Rough Scaled Pythons, they have fascinated me since I first read Weigels article in Herpetofauna on his trials & tribulations of getting the first live photo of one. Being only described in 81 and their unusual adaptations like keeled scales, forward facing eyes, longer than average teeth, ability to change color, etc. just fascinate me.
I rekin to most of these ball python X JAG lovers, a RSP would be a boring brown snake.

Andrew


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## Torah (Apr 17, 2011)

I love all animals , well maybe not so much cockroaches but aside that , love em all ! I would prefer a placid , easy snake over anything weather it be colour or breed or something else . But I do think jags , exotics etc are beautiful too.... Guess what Im saying is regardless of colour etc if it isnt a gentle/placid snake Im not interested .... So I go for temperament , thats just me but ..... And definately wouldnt pay $3500 for one .......


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## cadwallader (Apr 17, 2011)

couldn't agree more my first spotted show very little colour and can be snappy but he is properly still my favourite over my super calm blondes anyday


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## ThatTyeGuy (Apr 17, 2011)

i dont know if its just because of the colour....its because its something differnt. if we all lived in the states most of us would be saying how awesome it would be to have aussie snakes(that arent already over there).
personally i dont see a point in wanting to buy something that i didnt find beautiful to look at aswell. 
not everyone buys snakes just to breed and sell...but to chill out in a room and watch the animals out of pure fascination.


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## dickyknee (Apr 17, 2011)

I like ball pythons , the colours are great , but for me its more the size and the way they curl into a ball and not all the flavours they come in , I would be very happy to keep a plain brown one or a bright yellow one .... 

Owzi , I agree , my RSP is one of my favourite snakes , 2 shades of brown is not always a bad thing.


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## cactus2u (Apr 17, 2011)

I must say that my admiration towards your prime kept species 1st started as a colour thing Waterrat.Stunning the green is & having the colour change as well makes them particularly interesting. Now having just got Slim6y's Coastals after him returning to my/his motherland I am enjoying the colour & patterning of them as opposed to my Olives.Such contrast altho my Olives are stunning in their own right Especially just after shedding. But thats as far as it goes no intention of wanting an exotic There are so many native Aussie snakes that are breathtakingly beautiful & should be left that way


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

I know, it's not only the colour, the "collector's mentality" has a lot to do with it too. Each to heir own but I wouldn't see any value in "chilling out", watching some hybrid cruising around in a cage. The snake's behaviour can't be natural because the snake is not natural. For me, that's the beginning of the end. Don't get me wrong, I like colourful snakes but there has to be more to it than just that.


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## mje772003 (Apr 17, 2011)

I like the Iradesence of a water python


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## sookie (Apr 17, 2011)

Truly i am a little insulted by your comment micheal,i 'want' a lot of things as most pple do.I have my jungle,bredlis,woma,childrenis and my beardies,and al were chosen by attitude and handling not by looks....who wants a beautiful biting machine that they can"t touch without pain?especially being a bit of a noob.


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## CrystalMoon (Apr 17, 2011)

I am a very visual person, I admit freely that mine eyes go straight to pretty, glittery, shiny baubles and doodads......However where it comes to animals I tend to get the beauty of the animal/reptile from it's "whole"being. I am inexperienced with the keeping and handling of reptiles, and have done copius amounts of reading. I have the impression from said reading, that one of the snakes passed over because of it's "plain"looks is the Olive Python? I found this curious as I really love the look of them, and will definately be adding one to my collection(I am actually thinking of one as mine first snake)
I spose at the end of the day it gets down to personal choice and what floats an individuals boat 
I love to look at exotics(pictures etc)but am very happy to have the privilege of keeping natives
Good point Waterrat


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## Owzi (Apr 17, 2011)

sookie said:


> who wants a beautiful biting machine that they can"t touch without pain?


 
Me

They don't always have to be "pets". Its just as rewarding setting up a landscaped natural looking enclosure & observing your animal go about its day to day life. Even very agressive animals can be managed well, but most calm down with routine anyway.


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## kupper (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm insulted by the caliber of some people's Smarts on a daily basis sookie but that's just me 

To me color is my poison , variation grabs me by the proverbials 
But there is also nothing better than a knobtail in threat display or a knobtail communicating with the animal next door with it's tail signals

I recently got 7 greens for display purposes but I would be lieing if I said I did sit there in owe when I first seen one drink from it's coils and then lick it's lips , was gobsmacked !!!!


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

Insulted sookie? Why? You are a pet person, not a herpetologist, so be it, no one is insulting you. For most of my life I used to keep elapids, should I be insulted by your preferences?


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## longqi (Apr 17, 2011)

That is probably my biggest peeve at the moment

Over here I can buy any reptile from anywhere on earth including jags rattlesnakes anacondas mambas etc
yet what do we have?
Chondros, a few normal and albino burmese and several retics and other local reptiles
The only exotic is a baby albino corn we bought for a customer who hasnt picked it up yet
and a Sulcata tortoise that simply blew me away when I saw it

The most beautiful jungle Ive ever seen is hopefully still slithering around near Tully
same goes for lots of Aussie species
As soon as Exotic or x breed is mentioned some seem to forget everything they first enjoyed about reptiles and demand to have it
Ball pythons have great colours but dont even really look like snakes
Much like the one we call Dipong here [python curtus I think]

Crossbreeding is a pretty nasty practise most of the time

As an example a pair of similar snakes put together for the first time will very occasionally fight resulting in damage to one or both and you accept that risk as you do with breeding any animal
But when they try cross breeding the fights are much more common and damaging
I have a friend who is right into crossing retics and burmese and every year he loses one or two absolutely magnificent adults 
The majority of hatchlings take after either the father or the mother
Usually only about 30% take on the jag look 
So what happens to the rest


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## Cockney_Red (Apr 17, 2011)

Just dont get the fascination with something thats not natural, other than my pet Liger... Silicone implants are pretty to look at, but I only keep the natural....


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## sara_sabian (Apr 17, 2011)

I get the most joy from my snakes when I sit in the dark in the herp room at night watching them do their thing. I appreciate a good looking snake, because I marvel at its evolution - a hybrid holds little value for me. It's probably my own prejudice but they seem so artificial, less real if that makes sense.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 17, 2011)

sookie said:


> Truly i am a little insulted by your comment micheal,i 'want' a lot of things as most pple do.I have my jungle,bredlis,woma,childrenis and my beardies,and al were chosen by attitude and handling not by looks....who wants a beautiful biting machine that they can"t touch without pain?especially being a bit of a noob.


I have 3 beautiful biting machines, 2 spotted pythons and a water dragon, but they are all beautiful and I wouldn't trade them for anything. Sometimes it's nice to have something you don't handle as much as it is having something you do.


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 17, 2011)

I see your point M with the newer herp keepers these days only wanting the latest creations because of their aesthetic look...although as an experienced keeper, I also like the look of the new jags and morphs....having said that I will always keep pure lines in a natural looking enclosure as they should be!!

What I plan to do with the jags is display them in a "unatural" display to show off their amazing colours/patterns through correct coloured background and lighting.

This is my personal way to enjoy the hobby as it progresses and keeping the different paths of the hobby separate as they should be. JMO  Still nothing better than a pure python cruising around in an enclosure that mimics its natural habitat..... But also looking forward to the jag set up as well!


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

I wonder how many people here aspire to or would like to land a job with reptiles in a Zoo. How many of those who would like that are capable of setting up displays that would emphasize interesting aspects of particular species? How many of them know anything about the animal's natural history? Isn't all that interesting and fascinating? That's what I meant about shallow v in-depth interest in reptile keeping.
Someone asked me would I like to own a Ball python. No, I would much prefer half a dozen Aussie geckos, watch their interactions, go to places where they naturally occur and learn about their habitat. I couldn't do that with a Ball python.


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## No-two (Apr 17, 2011)

I wouldn't like to work with reptiles. I wouldn't keep chondros if they wern't a bright pretty green, I'm sure others are similar. Just because you like an animal based on its looks doesn't make your interest in reptiles 'shallow', I keep most of my animals fairly basic, it doesn't mean I don't know their natural range, habit, history etc etc.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

No-two said:


> I wouldn't like to work with reptiles. I wouldn't keep chondros if they wern't a bright pretty green, I'm sure others are similar. Just because you like an animal based on its looks doesn't make your interest in reptiles 'shallow', I keep most of my animals fairly basic, it doesn't mean I don't know their natural range, habit, history etc etc.


 
Don't take it personally. I didn't say that pretty colour means limited knowledge.


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## longqi (Apr 17, 2011)

I understand that it is horses for courses when it comes to work
But I chose reptiles as my work many years ago
Those years have been by far the most fulfilling and at times frustrating of my life
In reality there is very little I would change
Even the frustrating times were lessons learnt
The endless satisfaction from making your hobby your life instead of sitting in an office etc etc
is worth more than anything else


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## Wookie (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> There are 3 threads on ball python x this and that, people wanting exotics, jags, etc, etc..
> 
> Is the colour of the snake all that people admire?


 
I like the colour. I like the pattern. I like the shape or the size. I like something different. To me an animal being a hybrid doesn't matter at all so long as it is controlled and not released it harms nothing.


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## Nathan_T (Apr 17, 2011)

While I probably wouldn't buy a jag or cross breed. I do find it odd that there's a huge stink made about jags, but hypo bredli's, b&w jungles and albino carpets are prized so highly. Line breeding is just as unnatural to me as cross breeding, as far as I understand it. I'm perfectly happy with a plain old fashioned bredli, and maybe an olive or a water python when I get a house large enough. Morphs really don't do it for me, most of them actually look pretty repulsive to me (especially albino's)


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

I don't get what the problem is, if these "hybrids" dont come into contact with purebred snakes.

It seems like the herp world is very divided, and behind, when it comes to selective breeding. If it was like this for every animal that was kept, we'd have grey wolves instead of cocker spaniels.

If they are bred just for the different colours, and they are kept seperate from pure lines and never released, what is the issue? Why can't someone be happy owning a colourful snake, and the "purist" be happy with a pure blood line?

You guys on here talk a big game about racism, yet some are advocates of slaughtering cross breeds, it's not the animals fault it was bred this way, so why kill it? If you guys want to be such purists, then why not have a go at people who breed jungles for specific B&W or B&G traits? Obviously they occur naturally, but they are selectively bred to maximise the amount of a certain colour in a clutch.

Same goes with Albinos. If we followed this logic, Albino's would be 20 grand because they were so rare, and designer jungles would be hard to come by, too.


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## Grogshla (Apr 17, 2011)

Different people like different things. 
I have friends who go for colour despite some snakes being more aggressive. 
Personally I am a beginner so I am choosing a snake with a higher tolerance to being handled.


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## Owzi (Apr 17, 2011)

My thoughts-

Wild type/Locality type - will look like & behave like it's wild cousins.
Selective bred/Morph - will have certain colour traits highlighted & behave like its wild cousins.
Hybrid - man made animal that doesn't occour in nature & has mixed behaviors and adaptations.

My personal opinion is that it seems dissrespectfull to a species, that has evolved and adapted to its enviroment over thousands of years, to destroy all of that by crossing it with something totally different.


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## Wookie (Apr 17, 2011)

Nathan_T said:


> While I probably wouldn't buy a jag or cross breed. I do find it odd that there's a huge stink made about jags, but hypo bredli's, b&w jungles and albino carpets are prized so highly. Line breeding is just as unnatural to me as cross breeding


 
People seem to forget that a lot of the "pure" snakes kept are millionth generation inbred :lol:


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## Nathan_T (Apr 17, 2011)

-Matt- said:


> Those last three are all naturally occuring so cannot in any way be compared to Jags.



Ok, so what you're effectively saying that it is fine to line breed snakes using techniques not normally occuring in nature only if the product of this program could be produced by nature. 

So, that brings up the question, are you saying that a jag morph absolutely can not, ever, be produced by nature under any circumstances whatsoever? If the answer is "well, maybe, but there's like a 1 in a trillion shot of it", your argument makes no sense


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## imported_Varanus (Apr 17, 2011)

Interesting thread Michael!

I think us older herpers, many of whom spent alot of their childhoods out in the bush (and travelling across the country visiting different herp hotspots) looking for various species in their natural habitat with a more "hands on" approach to herping perhaps have more appreciation for our local natives than the scenario for many today of seeing a nice hybrid at a local herp show or on the internet and having it arrive the next day (a sort of instant gratification, shopping from home approach). Maybe the interest in the animal and it's relationship with it's environment is not fostered in some as they spend little time in the bush and can purchase everything on line.


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## Kyro (Apr 17, 2011)

The keeping of reptiles has become a pet trade & thats the major difference between now & 20yrs ago. People don't need to go bush to get what they want & since their animals are bred in captivity & don't know any other life they don't need to recreate the wild to keep their animals feeding, shedding & breeding. I understand where your coming from waterrat but I also understand why people don't feel they need all that much knowledge to keep a few reptiles, I guess you could say we have it easy because all the hard work has already been done for us. I should also add that I don't necessarily think thats a good thing but it's just the way it is.


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## bump73 (Apr 17, 2011)

EDIT::: Minka is right it just ain't worth commenting on...


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## Minka (Apr 17, 2011)

Another Jag **** fight... isn't that topic getting a little stale? 

Can't we all just get along, group hug anyone?


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

Kyro said:


> The keeping of reptiles has become a pet trade & thats the major difference between now & 20yrs ago. People don't need to go bush to get what they want & since their animals are bred in captivity & don't know any other life they don't need to recreate the wild to keep their animals feeding, shedding & breeding. I understand where your coming from waterrat but I also understand why people don't feel they need all that much knowledge to keep a few reptiles, I guess you could say we have it easy because all the hard work has already been done for us. I should also add that I don't necessarily think thats a good thing but it's just the way it is.



Kyro, you're right, keeping & breeding is much easier today than it was 20 - 30 years ago and I see the morphing / crossing as an extension or further development of reptile keeping. What I can't get my head around is that there is evidently less interest in natural history and ecology of reptiles. It is now largely replace by "manipulation" of natural forms and the new generation of reptile keepers are lapping up the qualities that have been artificially induced on natural forms. One could almost call it a virtual herpetology.



bump73 said:


> EDIT::: Minka is right it just ain't worth commenting on...



Then don't!


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## D3pro (Apr 17, 2011)

Colours? I'm in it for the money :lol:  

I think that there will always be keepers who have a major interest in natural history of the reptiles they own. But because the hobby is so easy to get into, anyone can pick up a snake as just a pet.
I bought a goldfish for my son once and knew crap all about it's history (and still don't). All I needed to know was how to prevent it from death. So as the reptile hobby becomes more of a pet trade, you will get more people buying snakes and only care about how to keep it rather then knowing what their keeping.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

D3pro said:


> I bought a goldfish for my son once and knew crap all about it's history (and still don't).


 
Natural history of a goldfish?  It's a contradiction in terms. :lol:


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## D3pro (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Natural history of a goldfish?  It's a contradiction in terms. :lol:


 
hahaha, I seriously have no idea about goldfish.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

-Matt- said:


> What really gets to me is that so many people in this hobby have no interest in getting out and seeing these animals (that they claim to have such an interest in) in their natural environment. They would much prefer to keep them in a melamine box in their house, yet have no idea what their natural environment looks like or how they behave in the wild. They only know what they have seen in a shop or read on an internet forum. I believe if you really have a genuine interest in our native reptiles then the ultimate feeling is to get out and appreciate them for yourself, in the wild. Not herping at a pet shop.



Maybe those people with more experience in the field should write and publish about their adventures to inspire more people to get out and see the real thing. I have no doubt that field herping changes perception about the animals.


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## Wookie (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> One could almost call it a virtual herpetology.


 
I dunno if I can entertain that Michael. I appreciate that they aren't naturally occurring and hence have different requirements and behaviours but I also think that keeping a a jag for instance is much the same as keeping a pure carpet and I don't consider people any less of a keeper for owning them (not saying you do either mate).

Most keepers own snakes as pets and as such, it is relatively unimportant knowing the locality/wild behaviours/environment. It isn't a wild animal so behaviour is irrelevant to them and all they want to know is how to look after it (and reading lots of threads on this forum, also how to breed them :lol. They're becoming mainstream pets which can either be seen as a blessing or a curse to the hobby for reasons we won't go into.


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## wranga (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> There are 3 threads on ball python x this and that, people wanting exotics, jags, etc, etc..
> 
> Is the colour of the snake all that people admire? If it is, that's pretty sad and demonstrates the shallow interest in reptiles. "colourful pets" - is that all?
> 
> I apologise for the negativity in this post but it's almost painful to read "I wont one", whenever a photo of some screwed up hybrid appears on here - like kids in a lolly shop.



isnt it all about how it looks? dont tell me you love the look of every butt ugly snake. so you keep and breed GTP's because you like the look of them or you really dont care about their looks, its about the money. 
i bet you would breed ball pythons if they were legal to keep


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## Wookie (Apr 17, 2011)

wranga said:


> isnt it all about how it looks? dont tell me you love the look of every butt ugly snake. so you keep and breed GTP's because you like the look of them or you really dont care about their looks, its about the money.
> i bet you would breed ball pythons if they were legal to keep


 
Hahaha thats a thread closer right there. Well done. Semi-serious thread deleted.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

-Matt- said:


> What really gets to me is that so many people in this hobby have no interest in getting out and seeing these animals (that they claim to have such an interest in) in their natural environment. They would much prefer to keep them in a melamine box in their house, yet have no idea what their natural environment looks like or how they behave in the wild. They only know what they have seen in a shop or read on an internet forum. I believe if you really have a genuine interest in our native reptiles then the ultimate feeling is to get out and appreciate them for yourself, in the wild. Not herping at a pet shop.


 
This is something I have ALWAYS been interested in. I don't know much about snakes, but even before I kept them I ALWAYS would hope to spot one when walking. I have no idea where to look, and seeing them hasn't happened often for me. Same with sharks, though. There would be nothing more thrilling to me than seeing great whites in the wild on a boat in SA, it would out do seaworlds shark bay by a long shot.

I'd also love to go to various places around the world to observe wild animals. In fact, I was selected to go to Costa Rica, Africa, Cambodia or NZ as part of a wild life study for uni. I couldn't afford it this year, but I can reserve a spot for 2012 and it's a toss up between Costa Rica (relocating leatherback turtles) or Africa.

Regarding the natural environments, when I am more knowledgable and my snakes are a reasonable size, I have plans for a self sustaining terrarium. I think natural environments are amazing and if they can be replicated, I think it would be really satisfying.

Despite all this, I still don't see the problem with people cross breeding for amazing colours. If they aren't released and bred with wild animals, then why does it matter? 

I still think if you don't like people doing this, then you should also be having a dig at people who are successfully producing albino's and amazingly coloured Jungles, because it's selective breeding, regardless.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

wranga said:


> isnt it all about how it looks? dont tell me you love the look of every butt ugly snake. so you keep and breed GTP's because you like the look of them or you really dont care about their looks, its about the money.
> i bet you would breed ball pythons if they were legal to keep



Why are you taking a cheap shot at me? 
I keep / breed / study GTPs because they have (to me) the most interesting biology and ecology of all Australian pythons. No, I would not breed Ball pythons even if I could - nothing against balls but they just don't interest me.
As for the money - ah, I don't want to get infraction ..... you are ....... !!


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## hrafna (Apr 17, 2011)

i want to learn all i can, i want to see these animals in their environment. one day i would love to get a gtp for the look and also the different "challenges" in keeping them. i prefer our aussie natives over any ball python out there (most morphs i find ugly) will i get an albino darwin one day, probably but more for the wife as i am not a fan of yellow, will i get an albino spotted one day, i sure hope so! but for now i want to learn what i can, experience what i can and enjoy my time with my md, because she is a great snake and i think she is gorgeous, even if she doesn't have flashing lights and red speed stripes and pied melanistic whohaa all over!


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I still think if you don't like people doing this, then you should also be having a dig at people who are successfully producing albino's and amazingly coloured Jungles, because it's selective breeding, regardless.



I wish you would have read my opening post.
I don't criticize people for "doing this", I was questioning the quest for colorful specimens and the reasoning behind it.
I think the thread is getting tired.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I wish you would have read my opening post.
> I don't criticize people for "doing this", I was questioning the quest for colorful specimens and the reasoning behind it.
> I think the thread is getting tired.


 
Wasn't really directed at anyone mate. Sorry you felt that way. Lots of people on this site (one member in particular with a leucistic as his avatar, idk his username) are advocates of killing something just because it's a cross breed. Wasn't trying to have a dig at ya.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 17, 2011)

Very interesting thread Michael....
Attraction to a snake/lizard would be a personal thing I reckon. It stems to what that individual thinks is the ideal look of a "pretty" reptile. That's what prompts them to look into or buy it. Their main concern at the start would be learning how to properly take care of it (though not always with the amounts of "how do I get my... to what ever" threads). If their really interested they would then learn about the natural history of their captive... That's what would seperate a "herper" from a "pet keeper" IMO.

If their interested in morphs... learn the history of the particular line. How it came about? What where the early challenges.. etc (it's natural history)

Interested in wild types.. learn about their ecology. Go see their natural habitat.. etc.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

Agree. I guess from a historical point of view, we started the other way around - you didn't catch it, you didn't have it. You had to know where to go, what and where to look and how to catch it .... and that gave us more inside into the species' natural history. Now it's the opposite way.


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## girdheinz (Apr 17, 2011)

Just embrace all keeping, some of you are naturalists, some of you are pet keepers, so what? Humans in any animal trade have bred for desired outcomes, cattle, sheep, dogs, cats. birds whatever. It's an age old debate, just do what you love and embrace the parts of the hobby you want to. I field herp, research natural herps, keep pet reptiles and aim to breed some pretty designer creatures along the way. I enjoy all aspects of the hobby.

Gird


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

what else but colour is there with most snakes? from my understanding GTP, which wait for it...... are bred for colour. all the posts i have read on handling the on this site is strictly only when necessary


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> what else but colour is there with most snakes? from my understanding GTP, which wait for it...... are bred for colour. all the posts i have read on handling the on this site is strictly only when necessary


 
Your understanding is poor. That's all I can say.


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

so what are gtp bred for then? personality, verve?

oh and money


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## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 17, 2011)

There are more natural colourful and attractive reptiles on the market than line-bred or morphs species.
Take a look at GTP, Common Tree Snakes and all their phases, the different locality colours of keelbacks, the different colours in monitors (ackies, indicus and Kimberly's). One of Australia's most common elapid has amazing colours and that's the yellow faced whipsnake. Frogs are another example of an animal on an acid trip.

I'd rather something that had natural beauty to it, with interesting behavior and natural history rather than a crappy jag or any morph for that matter.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> so what are gtp bred for then? personality, verve?
> 
> oh and money



I like to explain things and help people to understand (if I can) but in your case I won't bother.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I like to explain things and help people to understand (if I can) but in your case I won't bother.


 
Would you mind posting it here, or PM'ing me these reasons? GTP's are amazing, but I thought that people did breed them for colour, and females that have turned hormonal blue after a few clutches fetched more money? I've also read (a lot of older threads) where people don't handle them. Nothing recent has been said about that, though.


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

he just doenst have the time for a dumb bottom such as myself, even though the above points that kawasakirider raised.
arent red Juvenal more sought after because there red?


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

I let someone else to explain. This is really exhausting.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

A few people (including myself) have likened cross breeding for colour to selective breeding to pronounce desired traits, I'd like someone with knowledge to tell me how it's different, or acceptable? 

Not doubting anyone (I certainly don't have the experience to say otherwise) but I'd also like info on the GTP thing, also. Waterrat, that's a beautiful snake.

Giglamesh, I think in the early days, people wanted red juveniles because they weren't as common as yellow ones, and they believed it would bring out a better shade as an adult, but it turned out that many of the reds were imported, or something like that. Not too sure.



Waterrat said:


> I let someone else to explain. This is really exhausting.


 
Not trying to be rude mate, but you started the thread. Would be nice if you participated in the discussion to enlighten others, especially since you're so passionate about it. The truth is, I don't know because I'm a newb, but I'd like the info?


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## Red-Ink (Apr 17, 2011)

What do you guys mean by GTPs being bred for colour?


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## bump73 (Apr 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Giglamesh, I think in the early days, people wanted red juveniles because they weren't as common as yellow ones, and they believed it would bring out a better shade as an adult, but it turned out that many of the reds were imported, or something like that. Not too sure.


 
Native GTP's only have yellow babies. reds are from PNG etc but they also have yellow babies. So red baby = exotic.. yellow baby = possible native possible exotic..


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> What do you guys mean by GTPs being bred for colour?


 
I've read a lot of older threads where people were paying more for GTP's with blue highlights, and if a female has gone blue over time because she's had clutches, I believe the term is "hormonal blue" and if a snake gets to the stage it's constantly blue, people will pay more for it.

I also read old threads where people were willing to pay more for red juvies because they thought they were special, although they just go green anyway, but it turns out reds were imported.

This is just my reading, and I have no idea if it's right or not, that's why I'm genuinely asking.



bump73 said:


> Native GTP's only have yellow babies. reds are from PNG etc but they also have yellow babies. So red baby = exotic.. yellow baby = possible native possible exotic..


 
Thanks mate


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## D3pro (Apr 17, 2011)

Reptiles don't have to be bred for a certain anything... some people just like breeding them for the satisfaction of it.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 17, 2011)

Hormonal blue isn't really breeding for colour then... it's "hormonal" as in not genetic.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Hormonal blue isn't really breeding for colour then... it's "hormonal" as in not genetic.


 
Yeah I understand that, I was just using it as an example of colour driving up the price. But I have read that people that have tried to breed to get blue highlights and stuff like that.

I don't know why people would bother trying to selectively breed a gtp for colour, they are stunning as it is. I can understand it with jungles, though. I just don't get why it's different to breed a python for specific traits and cross breeding for specific traits.

I understand purists, but if the snakes aren't polluting pure bred lines is it really a problem? That's all I'm asking.


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

D3pro said:


> some people just like breeding them for the satisfaction of it.



yer thats why people ask so much for hatchies. if you breed it because you love doing it you would sell for cost (food electricity) not at the ridiculous cost some snakes are.


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## GeckoJosh (Apr 17, 2011)

Not everyone charges heaps for snakes, but realistically breeding does cost a fair bit, you have to buy a rack system, pay for food + electricity, all that can easily exceed $1000, and that's not including all the hours spent getting them feeding etc


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

if you do it because you love it time spent should be a null point, what happens after the first seasons hatchies do you then sell them for say 2-300 each because you would have made your money back? from the rack?


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## GeckoJosh (Apr 17, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> if you do it because you love it time spent should be a null point, what happens after the first seasons hatchies do you then sell them for say 2-300 each because you would have made your money back? from the rack?


 Why do you have an issue with people making money?


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

It always come down to money, doesn't it? 

_" yer thats why people ask so much for hatchies. if you breed it because you love doing it you would sell for cost (food electricity) not at the ridiculous cost some snakes are"_

have you ever bred any other than the run of the mill species that entitles you to make such comment?

Hormonal females fetch more money? How many ads have you seen for H/F and that was the price?

I am not an arrogant person but I find it painful to sort through the bullsh..... that some people present here.


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## imported_Varanus (Apr 17, 2011)

-Matt- said:


> What really gets to me is that so many people in this hobby have no interest in getting out and seeing these animals (that they claim to have such an interest in) in their natural environment. They would much prefer to keep them in a melamine box in their house, yet have no idea what their natural environment looks like or how they behave in the wild. They only know what they have seen in a shop or read on an internet forum. I believe if you really have a genuine interest in our native reptiles then the ultimate feeling is to get out and appreciate them for yourself, in the wild. Not herping at a pet shop.


 

Great comment Matt, I think this is spot on and along the lines of what I was trying to say. I was talking to a friend today who's a guide at a major wildlife attraction and she said many overseas visitors have a better understanding of and fascination with our wildlife as a whole than many visiting Ozzies! She mentioned "ask any local to explain what a Grizzly Bear was and many can not only explain what they look like, but also something of their general biology. Ask the same person what a Whoylie is and their dumbfounded"! Bit of an inditment, I reckon!!


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

i dont have an issue, im asking if you breed because you enjoy it or you breed because you know each of those eggs holds something that could be worth several thousand dollars. 

and the original question is yet to be answered, are or are not many GTP bred specifically for colours. not just gtp. 

all these threads give me the feeling that the people that keep the high end snakes like GTP are worried that colour morphs/ crossbreeds are going to become the new thing, end product being they lose money... which lets be honest is what everyone is aiming for. rather than people saying "i wish i could get a GTP" could be turned into " i wish i could get (insert snake morph name of your choice)" and there are some stunning morphs available in the states that no doubt will make there way here sooner or later. 

who wouldnt want a stunning morph especially when they are potentially a better looking animal. and a quite likely a easy to keep species that "noobs" would have no issue with. 

im sure a thread titled: My first snake a green tree python, yer thats going to end well especially considering there one of the harder to keep species. 

but then you have the purist that always make the comments on morph threads " not my cup of tea" or something similar.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> It always come down to money, doesn't it?
> 
> _" yer thats why people ask so much for hatchies. if you breed it because you love doing it you would sell for cost (food electricity) not at the ridiculous cost some snakes are"_
> 
> ...


 
I have never seen an ad for a hormonal female, I have read old threads stating this. You started this thread and I'm asking innocent questions, not disputing what you're saying, I'm merely curious. 

You say you're not an arrogant person, but I think you are being exactly that. I'm just asking you a question because I don't know any better, mate. Why even start the thread if you don't want to discuss and explain your reasonings?

Edit

For the record, I don't care about the prices, it has nothing to do with my questions, I just thought people bred GTP's and ones with blue highlights were more desired.


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## D3pro (Apr 17, 2011)

Whats wrong with asking a bit of money? The breeders put all that time and effort taking care of the animals, buying food and having appropriate housing. I think it's their right to ask something back for all their sweat and tears. Pull ya head in.

Yes some breeders breed for traits. GTP's with high yellows, blacks or blues.... answered


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## AshMan (Apr 17, 2011)

I dont think hybrids are better looking, especially not better looking then a GTP. And you can enjoy something AND make money from it, it doesnt have to be one or the other. ( In reply to giglamesh)


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

_GTP's are amazing, but I thought that people did breed them for colour, and females that have turned hormonal blue after a few clutches fetched more money

_more like a statement. Can you provide links to the threads you mention you have read?


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

i never said you couldnt.
@ashman


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> _GTP's are amazing, but I thought that people did breed them for colour, and females that have turned hormonal blue after a few clutches fetched more money
> 
> _more like a statement. Can you provide links to the threads you mention you have read?


 
Mate you just want to be argumentative, it would be a statement, except for the keywords "I thought" and the many admissions I have made stating the fact I am a newb and I'm asking your experienced opinion. 

No I can't find any links because I can't be bothered searching. There have been a few with the discussion of blue pythons and red ones, that people realised were imported.

I "thought" not I "know". 

Whatever mate, start a discussion about your high an mighty opinion, then shut down a newby for trying to get you to explain it so I can understand. I'm not claiming or stating anything, I was just interested in your opinion.


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## phoebe (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I wonder how many people here aspire to or would like to land a job with reptiles in a Zoo. How many of those who would like that are capable of setting up displays that would emphasize interesting aspects of particular species? How many of them know anything about the animal's natural history? Isn't all that interesting and fascinating? That's what I meant about shallow v in-depth interest in reptile keeping.
> Someone asked me would I like to own a Ball python. No, I would much prefer half a dozen Aussie geckos, watch their interactions, go to places where they naturally occur and learn about their habitat. I couldn't do that with a Ball python.



I'm a casual worker/volunteer at a zoo in the reptiles section and so a lot of my time is spent researching the natural history of many reptile species (both exotic and native) and I always find it extremely rewarding and interesting. One of my jobs is to walk around the zoo with a snake or a lizard and let the public get up close and ask questions. It always amazes me the amount of people that say they have a carpet or childrens python at home and yet they can't identify the black-headed python that's draped around my neck. And I love setting up displays 

As for morphs and hybrids...I personally wouldn't ever own a jag but I would consider some of the patternless and striped morphs (I will always prefer the normal wild types though) and I totally despise hybrids. I just can't see the point.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

I am sorry if I offended you - I mean it.
When questions or statements start pouring in like "GTPs are bred for colours", "hormonal females are worth more", "red hatchlings are worth more", "breeding for money", "snakes would be cheaper if people bred them for love" (not that it all came from you, giglamesh had fair input), I shake my head and think where would one start to address this mess? And in the end, why the focus on GTPs?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Lol, I am a capitalist mate... The only thing I hate about snakes being sold at a high price is that being a young uni student, I couldn't dream of owning one. The money is not a drama.

I haven't been offended, I've just been chasing the answer to two questions for the last few pages, lol.

EDIT

Also, I wasn't just focussing on GTP's, I was asking why it's OK for people to breed purebreds for certain traits, but not cross, as long as the pure lines are kept pure?

I'm not offended mate, but this whole hobby is overwhelming (in a really good way) I am so interested in knowing as much as I can. Much of my days are spent on here reading and due to the differences of opinion and everything, I just feel lost (albeit still interested), lol.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Lol, I am a capitalist mate... The only thing I hate about snakes being sold at a high price is that being a young uni student, I couldn't dream of owning one. The money is not a drama.
> 
> I haven't been offended, I've just been chasing the answer to two questions for the last few pages, lol.




Well being a capitalist then the answer is real simple... they are at a high/low price as that's what the breeder wants for them (for what ever reason). Nothing to do then with whether it's a morph or not.....


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## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 17, 2011)

> Also, I wasn't just focussing on GTP's, I was asking why it's OK for people to breed purebreds for certain traits, but not cross, as long as the pure lines are kept pure?



This is something you will have to decide for yourself.
I believe it's wrong and lazy.


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## wranga (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Why are you taking a cheap shot at me?
> I keep / breed / study GTPs because they have (to me) the most interesting biology and ecology of all Australian pythons. No, I would not breed Ball pythons even if I could - nothing against balls but they just don't interest me.
> As for the money - ah, I don't want to get infraction ..... you are ....... !!



can i pass you a tissue? it wasnt a cheap shot at you. i was pointing out that you have your reasons for keeping what you like. no different to others liking what they like, be it a dream or not. we all have differing opinions as to what should be bred with what. but like it or not this hobby is changing and hybrid and exotics will become more popular in this hobby. the next 10 years will turn this hobby on its head. id rather our pure natives anyday but there going to get lost in the changes. but thats another thread for some other time. 
sorry if my previous post read as a personal attack on you, it wasnt ment


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Also, I wasn't just focussing on GTP's, I was asking why it's OK for people to breed purebreds for certain traits, but not cross, as long as the pure lines are kept pure?



There is no right and wrong and even if there was, it would be ignored by those who are doing the wrong.
It's a pleasure to meet a fellow capitalist.


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## giglamesh (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I am sorry if I offended you - I mean it.
> When questions or statements start pouring in like "GTPs are bred for colours", "hormonal females are worth more", "red hatchlings are worth more", "breeding for money", "snakes would be cheaper if people bred them for love" (not that it all came from you, giglamesh had fair input), I shake my head and think where would one start to address this mess? And in the end, why the focus on GTPs?


i can take credit for most of it. please tell me when someone has put a crappy looking gtp (you can be the judge of what is deemed crappy) with one that has what would be called nice markings, colours. you always here about people putting this stunning snake with this stunning snake, but never the other way round. 
not everyone breeds just for money but many would.
im sure hormonal females would be worth more is they were to come up for sale.
snakes would be cheaper if people bred them just for the enjoyment rather than both enjoyment and money.


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

wranga said:


> can i pass you a tissue? it wasnt a cheap shot at you. i was pointing out that you have your reasons for keeping what you like. no different to others liking what they like, be it a dream or not. we all have differing opinions as to what should be bred with what. but like it or not this hobby is changing and hybrid and exotics will become more popular in this hobby. the next 10 years will turn this hobby on its head. id rather our pure natives anyday but there going to get lost in the changes. but thats another thread for some other time.
> sorry if my previous post read as a personal attack on you, it wasnt ment



I have to agree even though it goes against the grain. One question: do you think there are so many reptile keepers and exotics out there now that the government authorities could not take a sweeping action and wipe out the exotics and prosecute the owners? It's something that has always been at the back of my mind.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Well being a capitalist then the answer is real simple... they are at a high/low price as that's what the breeder wants for them (for what ever reason). Nothing to do then with whether it's a morph or not.....


 
I'm not even talking about prices man....?


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> i can take credit for most of it. please tell me when someone has put a crappy looking gtp (you can be the judge of what is deemed crappy) with one that has what would be called nice markings, colours. you always here about people putting this stunning snake with this stunning snake, but never the other way round.
> not everyone breeds just for money but many would.
> im sure hormonal females would be worth more is they were to come up for sale.
> snakes would be cheaper if people bred them just for the enjoyment rather than both enjoyment and money.



Honestly, I don't think there is enough variable stock (GTPs) in Australia to give owners too much choice of what they put together. Why do you think hormonal females will be worth more? I would think the opposite. The blue colour doesn't mean a thing because it's not genetic and the really blue individuals (after several clutches) are getting a bit long in the tooth, so I would think they are worth less than young females. JMO.
If people bred snake ONLY for enjoyment, the hobby would be that much poorer because professionals such as URS, SR, SXR wouldn't exist.
Would you agree?


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## souldoubt (Apr 17, 2011)

imported_Varanus said:


> Interesting thread Michael!
> 
> I think us older herpers, many of whom spent alot of their childhoods out in the bush (and travelling across the country visiting different herp hotspots) looking for various species in their natural habitat with a more "hands on" approach to herping perhaps have more appreciation for our local natives than the scenario for many today of seeing a nice hybrid at a local herp show or on the internet and having it arrive the next day (a sort of instant gratification, shopping from home approach). Maybe the interest in the animal and it's relationship with it's environment is not fostered in some as they spend little time in the bush and can purchase everything on line.


 
Thanks Varanus, for making me feel old haha.

I agree with you Michael. Even pure bred, naturally occurring exotics have a great evolutionary story and are usually beautiful animals. I'm not sure what the fascination with X breeds are - especially that carpet X ball python it doesn't do much for me at all.
What natural history does a jag have? or a carpet x ball python?
Obviously this is a very divided topic though.


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## spotlight (Apr 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Wasn't really directed at anyone mate. Sorry you felt that way. Lots of people on this site (one member in particular with a leucistic as his avatar, idk his username) are advocates of killing something just because it's a cross breed. Wasn't trying to have a dig at ya.


 mate you must be talking about me???.....
and im sorry if you took me wrong but i have nothing against bringing out great colours in a animal ive done this my self in the past and im also working on a project as we speak.
the animals i were refering to were jags not cross breeds (cross breeds produce colour, jags produce more then just colours as we all know!!) and due to this threaten all morelia forms if cross bred into them and god help if ever released into the wild?
at least if a boa is released into the wild by its self it would grow old and die but not breed !!!!!


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## Elite_Reptiles (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> There are 3 threads on ball python x this and that, people wanting exotics, jags, etc, etc..
> 
> Is the colour of the snake all that people admire? If it is, that's pretty sad and demonstrates the shallow interest in reptiles. "colourful pets" - is that all?
> 
> I apologise for the negativity in this post but it's almost painful to read "I wont one", whenever a photo of some screwed up hybrid appears on here - like kids in a lolly shop.


 

Why do you only own snakes that are green?


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## wranga (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I have to agree even though it goes against the grain. One question: do you think there are so many reptile keepers and exotics out there now that the government authorities could not take a sweeping action and wipe out the exotics and prosecute the owners? It's something that has always been at the back of my mind.



they cant stop illegal imigrants or drugs comming into this country, so how are the going to stop the exotics that are bred here? they could prosecute the owners of them any day of the week if they could be bothered. but to answer your question, i dont believe that they could wipe exotics out in this country


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## Minka (Apr 17, 2011)

Why are Jag's being brought into a thread about hybrids? 

And by "hybrid" i assume it to be defined by a crossing of SPECIES yes?


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## Dannyboi (Apr 17, 2011)

I am working on a different colour of king quails. There is no real money in it as far as I know. I just want to do something different. Hybrids is a whole different ball game. Yes some are different. Some are very pretty. To me it would depend on the degree of which they were hybridized. An intergrade not so much of a bad thing but when they cross a different species its a little more extreme. (Carpondros/jagpondros) only because there would be so much trial and error in setting them up. Then when they cross the Genus line. (Wall Pythons, Coma's and Carpet Cross Ball python) it is even worse on that respect. Is it entirely wrong? I have no idea shouldn't be asking me why not ask ecologists.I personally don't want any of these I am only really interested in frogs. Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't the last Geochelone abigdoni tortoise being hybridized as an attempt to restore the species? Would you say that counts as reviving a species?


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> Why do you only own snakes that are green?


 
I have already answered your question, you just have to read the whole thread not to just jump in at hog.


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## Minka (Apr 17, 2011)

spotlight said:


> mate you must be talking about me???.....
> and im sorry if you took me wrong but i have nothing against bringing out great colours in a animal ive done this my self in the past and im also working on a project as we speak.
> the animals i were refering to were jags not cross breeds (cross breeds produce colour, jags produce more then just colours as we all know!!) and due to this threaten all morelia forms if cross bred into them and god help if ever released into the wild?
> *at least if a boa is released into the wild by its self it would grow old and die but not breed !!!!!*


 

Obviously you have no idea regarding the amount of escaped Corn snakes found in places such as Sydney.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

Minka said:


> Obviously you have no idea regarding the amount of escaped Corn snakes found in places such as Sydney.



He's saying that a JAG can breed with wildlife, but a boa couldn't breed without another one. The corns obviously have mates.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I think the thread is getting tired.



Then don't start them!


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## hrafna (Apr 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> He's saying that a JAG can breed with wildlife, but a boa couldn't breed without another one. The corns obviously have mates.


 still wouldn't like the idea of coming across a scruboa one day!


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## kawasakirider (Apr 17, 2011)

hrafna said:


> still wouldn't like the idea of coming across a scruboa one day!


 
Lol, it could be the aussie version of the anaconda movie


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## vampstorso (Apr 17, 2011)

For the record Michael,
I just want to say I like how you've handled yourself through this thread, with people attacking your view (which has more of an evidence/biologically based background) with their flawed EMOTIONAL (hence rather irrelevant) arguments.

I bought a "run of the mill" Jungle simply because I liked the snake, and I liked the personality shown in my particular one too, I liked the idea that if I went looking for one in the wild, I'd find one just like him. I find a feeling of strength in that. 

In reading your photography thread Michael, I saw you were a zoologist, which to me makes your views come together even more, and like I said, from the biological standpoint; appreciating an animal for what it is, where it came from, and how it came too be. I highly appreciate that. 

I think that's where this thread is getting lost in translation...it's not an emotional or money based thread, it's about the actual well being and appreciation for the biology/ecology of it all...


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## hrafna (Apr 17, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Lol, it could be the aussie version of the anaconda movie


 god no! the worst thing about that movie was j-lo and we don't need her out here!


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## killimike (Apr 17, 2011)

Love these threads! Always interesting to see what people think and why. 

I won't add my 2c other than to say let's not talk like either side on this issue has exclusive rights to common sense and reason, both sides have made subjective and emotive appeals


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## Jay84 (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Is the colour of the snake all that people admire? If it is, that's pretty sad and demonstrates the shallow interest in reptiles. "colourful pets" - is that all?
> 
> I apologise for the negativity in this post but it's almost painful to read "I wont one", whenever a photo of some screwed up hybrid appears on here - like kids in a lolly shop.



Why is it 'sad' that some people like to own or breed reptiles for their colour or pattern etc? Why is it 'sad' that some people just like to have these animals in captivity and not go on herping trips, or study their biology or natural history?

Is it 'sad' that i own 3 dog breeds..... yet i do not know the history of the breed. I do not know the story of how dogs became domesticated.

Why does it matter if some people just want to keep and breed animals purely for colour and pattern? 

Why does it matter if people choose to just study reptiles and not keep them?

Why does it matter if some choose to do both, keep them in captivity, and also study their natural history?


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## eitak (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat - What do you look for in a snake apart from appearance? Not trying to start just wondering what other aspects interest you?

I always wanted a pet snake and got a spotted as my first, he is soo clam if he slips down the couch I can pull him out and he doesn't even flinch or hiss . . But he isn't all that beautiful . . So as my next snakes I got diamonds because if their size and colour - I think they ate beautiful and wanted something bigger . . My spotted is still my fav just because of his temperament and sentimental value of being my first snake . . So I guess I look for temperament and appearance


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## kupper (Apr 17, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Why is it 'sad' that some people like to own or breed reptiles for their colour or pattern etc? Why is it 'sad' that some people just like to have these animals in captivity and not go on herping trips, or study their biology or natural history?
> 
> Is it 'sad' that i own 3 dog breeds..... yet i do not know the history of the breed. I do not know the story of how dogs became domesticated.
> 
> ...


 


how are you so active after the weekend you have had ?


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## Waterrat (Apr 17, 2011)

Jungleman said:


> Then don't start them!



This thread was fresh when I start it .... your remark didn't make it any fresher.



Jay84 said:


> Why is it 'sad' that some people like to own or breed reptiles for their colour or pattern etc?



Jay, The sad thing is that SOME / MANY people don't beyond the colour or pattern.



eitak said:


> Waterrat - What do you look for in a snake apart from appearance?



Eitak, I only keep and breed one species at the moment but I have kept, bred, displayed .... many before (I am one of those "born earlier"). I look for interesting aspects of different species and if I find (through research) their biology, ecology interesting and keeping / breeding challenging, I go for it. That's what makes me tick. Although it sounds almost impossible, my next target are White-lipped pythons. I know they would do well in outdoor enclosures where I live, and I think they would be fantastic species to work with even though they are savage bastards.


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## killimike (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> ...my next target are White-lipped pythons. I know they would do well in outdoor enclosures where I live, and I think they would be fantastic species to work with even though they are savage bastards...


 
Very cool! Any hints on how you might go about targeting them? That might be half the challenge, and a big part of the enjoyment you get out of your keeping, to keep the thread sorta on the original topic


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## HILDY (Apr 17, 2011)

How would you about getting them, legally that is?


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## Dannyboi (Apr 17, 2011)

Demonstrators permit?


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## ToadCountry (Apr 17, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Why is it 'sad' that some people like to own or breed reptiles for their colour or pattern etc? Why is it 'sad' that some people just like to have these animals in captivity and not go on herping trips, or study their biology or natural history?
> 
> Far out.
> My analogy............and please don't tell me I'm talking about mammals, as I am aware of this.
> ...


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## HILDY (Apr 17, 2011)

always wondered why they were on the species list (here in nsw anyway)
anyone know why?


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## D3pro (Apr 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Although it sounds almost impossible, my next target are White-lipped pythons. I know they would do well in outdoor enclosures where I live, and I think they would be fantastic species to work with even though they are savage bastards.



They love being up in the mountains don't they? Would be interesting if you can get them legally... not many have been able to breed them in captivity.


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## Minka (Apr 17, 2011)

ToadCountry said:


> Jay84 said:
> 
> 
> > Why is it 'sad' that some people like to own or breed reptiles for their colour or pattern etc? Why is it 'sad' that some people just like to have these animals in captivity and not go on herping trips, or study their biology or natural history?
> ...


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## longqi (Apr 17, 2011)

Water pythons are one of my favourites even though I have none at present
I think there were some located on one of the Torres Straight islands or maybe on Melville
they were the black variety if memory serves me correctly
the Gold phase are simply stunning


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## Australis (Apr 18, 2011)

D3pro said:


> They love being up in the mountains don't they? Would be interesting if you can get them legally... not many have been able to breed them in captivity.


 
You sound like your getting confused with _Morelia boeleni_.


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## DanN (Apr 18, 2011)

Nothing is sad. 

People keep/breed reptiles for colour/money/interest in natural history + 156 other sad/great/perverted reasons.

It is the individuals choice. Just because 1 person thinks something is "sad" does not mean others do, or does it mean it ACTUALLY is sad - you just think it is and that is your choice too. You're human beings!

Why not talk about something interesting like White-lipped pythons. Longqi says they are on Melville Island and the Torres Straight Islands - news to me...


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## longqi (Apr 18, 2011)

I might be completely wrong about that but Im fairly sure I heard it somewhere
Something about calling them a new species because they were neither Albertisi or Fuscus but had the white lip look

It may have even been on this site
I put up a photo of me with a whitelip and one of the replies [who seemed to know what he was talking about]
gave exact descriptions etc etc


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

Dan, they are on Saibai which is an Australia Territory.


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## Chris1 (Apr 18, 2011)

pmsl, you even remembered to include bad spelling!!!


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## waruikazi (Apr 18, 2011)

DanN said:


> Nothing is sad.
> 
> People keep/breed reptiles for colour/money/interest in natural history + 156 other sad/great/perverted reasons.
> 
> ...



They're not on Melville. But there are lots of taipans on up there!


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Apr 18, 2011)

I have to admit that I love The new colour morphs and base my snake choices largely on appearance...but I do see where people come from about pure genetic lines. I guess the important part is that these morphs dont escape and breed with the wild population.


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## nathancl (Apr 18, 2011)

Aesthetics is the main reason a person will get an animal. the world revolves on aesthetics and its because of this that people will cross breed to make prettier things. stop wingeing and embrace it.


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## waruikazi (Apr 18, 2011)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> I have to admit that I love The new colour morphs and base my snake choices largely on appearance...but I do see where people come from about pure genetic lines. *I guess the important part is that these morphs dont escape and breed with the wild population*.



No it's not!

I'm curious as to who the 'naturalists' are compared to the morphs. The feeling i'm getting is that the hot heads are more interested in normals and the python people are into the morphs.


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## giglamesh (Apr 18, 2011)

which is basically what i said in a post a few pages back


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## Chris1 (Apr 18, 2011)

i have issues with the amount of healthy animals that get culled in creating morphs, sure they can look great, but id feel like the worlds biggest hypocrite if i ever bought one.


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## killimike (Apr 18, 2011)

Chris1 said:


> i have issues with the amount of healthy animals that get culled in creating morphs, sure they can look great, but id feel like the worlds biggest hypocrite if i ever bought one.


 
Only if you campaigned against culling, and were a vegan etc etc


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## Wookie (Apr 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I let someone else to explain. This is really exhausting.


 
I see that wine glass quite often Michael. Somebody likes their red wine


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## Chris1 (Apr 18, 2011)

refusing to buy them is my way of protesting,....

i dont see what being vegan has to do with having a problem with animals being deliberately bred then getting culled fro not being pretty enough.


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## Wookie (Apr 18, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Hormonal blue isn't really breeding for colour then... it's "hormonal" as in not genetic.


 
I bet you any money people are out there line breeding to produce higher percentage clutches of hormonal blues though. The base for the hormone is most likely after all, dictated by genetics.



Jannico said:


> I believe it's wrong and lazy.


 
Can I ask why you think it is lazy Jannico? I understand why you think its wrong from a purist point of view but I don't understand the lazy? You still have to breed two snakes and care for the young. And then line breed for traits just like any other snake. They don't just pop out pretty first clutch :lol:


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

Wookie, you can't line breed for hormonal blue. Besides, what about all the males in a clutch?


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## Wookie (Apr 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I have to agree even though it goes against the grain. One question: do you think there are so many reptile keepers and exotics out there now that the government authorities could not take a sweeping action and wipe out the exotics and prosecute the owners? It's something that has always been at the back of my mind.


 
I know there are lotsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss of corns and exotic GTP.


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## killimike (Apr 18, 2011)

Chris1 said:


> refusing to buy them is my way of protesting,....
> 
> i dont see what being vegan has to do with having a problem with animals being deliberately bred then getting culled fro not being pretty enough.


 
I'm not really having a go, just stirring  

But my point was I suppose that it's an arbitrary line to draw in the sand between what is acceptable use of an animal, and what's unacceptable, without getting into a long list of examples, rodents bred for snake food come to mind.

But it's up to each of us where we put that line, and how straight it is


----------



## guzzo (Apr 18, 2011)

In relation to the original question…….For me……I find snakes interesting but I have a personal preference for constrictors esp the Morelia’s. 

What I personally admire ……..

There is just something about a primitive large predator . I like that they can be so precise in their movements and can move so silently yet can be a fast as lightning and so incredibly strong and yet so patient. I love the way they use camouflage and the way they subdue their prey and eat such huge meals. I find the regulation of body heat through external sources fascinating and also the shed cycle. The way they smell is also facinating (not smell as in when they poop etc smell as in how they smell things...).

I find myself often sitting there observing them and while I am sure they do not like me and long for me to pick them up I am content and happy that they have accepted me (all accept one that definitely does not like me) as something that is not threat or food but just there all the time fussing.

As for colour…..if my snakes only came in brown I would still find them just as interesting in fact the next one I hope to get is a standard olive….. in summing up I like the sleekness combined with great strength……however if someone breeds a tartan coloured morph I would put up my hand for that.


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## Wookie (Apr 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> have you ever bred any other than the run of the mill species that entitles you to make such comment?


 
I don't see carpets as any more run of the mill as GTP to be perfectly honest. Both are beautiful snakes. Just one is worth more than the other.


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

Wookie said:


> I know there are lotsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss of corns and exotic GTP.



We all know that. What was the question?


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 18, 2011)

I keep very standard SWCP, Stimsons and Woma's. I get a lot of satisfaction out of keeping them however the best looking Stim and SWCP I have ever seen are these two.
Nothing I will ever be able to keep will come close to these two snakes.


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## Wookie (Apr 18, 2011)

vampstorso said:


> I bought a "run of the mill" Jungle simply because I liked the snake, and I liked the personality shown in my particular one too, I liked the idea that if I went looking for one in the wild, I'd find one just like him. I find a feeling of strength in that.



That sounds pretty emotional to me lol :lol:



Waterrat said:


> Wookie, you can't line breed for hormonal blue. Besides, what about all the males in a clutch?



Sell as normals. Or cull them :lol:. Joking of course guys. So no genetic basis for the hormonal change Michael? Ie gene coding for change in physiology that causes the change. I'd be curious to know



Waterrat said:


> We all know that. What was the question?


 
Was my roundabout way of saying yes there are too many to wipe out. Would be very easy if they were on books or displayed in shows, but being illegal and kept quiet makes it much harder to track and destroy all animals. No going back now eh


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## Craig2 (Apr 18, 2011)

Owzi said:


> My thoughts-
> 
> Wild type/Locality type - will look like & behave like it's wild cousins.
> Selective bred/Morph - will have certain colour traits highlighted & behave like its wild cousins.
> ...


 
But its ok to keep them in a box some ppl on here get me.


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## giglamesh (Apr 18, 2011)

post 7 of this thread may be of interest to people. 
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/green-pythons-155088/

i guess its true, it is all in the colour.


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 18, 2011)

Craig2 said:


> But its ok to keep them in a box some ppl on here get me.



Exactly right Craig 2...people have a go at breeding for colours/morphs etc etc as its cruel/disrespectful to the species....yet as you so correctly pointed out Craig, they keep them in a box...LMAO, if you loved and respected them that much, let them out where they should be.... love it.....


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> post 7 of this thread may be of interest to people.
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/green-pythons-155088/
> 
> i guess its true, it is all in the colour.



Good reminder mate. Those snakes I referred to are mongrels, no good for anything else.


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## giglamesh (Apr 18, 2011)

oh im sorry, i was unaware this was a competition. i was merely agreeing with you, by using a past comment of yours as backup to my final statement in my last post.

kudos for editing your post, to remove the "are you winning"


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## longqi (Apr 18, 2011)

Southside Morelia said:


> Exactly right Craig 2...people have a go at breeding for colours/morphs etc etc as its cruel/disrespectful to the species....yet as you so correctly pointed out Craig, they keep them in a box...LMAO, if you loved and respected them that much, let them out where they should be.... love it.....



I dont think many people complain about selective breeding for colour within a species 
Which really alters no genetic codes as far as I am aware??
But they do complain about mixing species which must alter genetic codes??

How far do we go with mixing species before enough is enough??

Can we take this to the final stage??
I am no rocket scientist but are humans related to the great apes somewhere along the line?
Would those who support mixing animal species also support trying to mix say orangutans with human embryos??

There has to be a point when sanity prevails


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## kawasakirider (Apr 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> Would those who support mixing animal species also support trying to mix say orangutans with human embryos??


 
I'm somewhat debauched when it comes to humans... I would love to see the result of that experiment.


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> oh im sorry, i was unaware this was a competition. i was merely agreeing with you, by using a past comment of yours as backup to my final statement in my last post.
> 
> kudos for editing your post, to remove the "are you winning"



Mate, you obviously have nothing better to do than picking on others. Why don't you post something of interest for a change?


----------



## giglamesh (Apr 18, 2011)

picking on people, all i was doing was calling you out, your the one that started this thread and a no less than two months ago you said your going to start working on new colour morphs. hence the hypocrite comment.

everyone needs to realise that natural colours are no longer what people are after. soon enough all the fancy colour morphs will take the market by storm, and as mentioned above even you admit to working with these snakes to try to bring out better or different colours.

and i bet 9 times out of 10 excluding GTP as they always get loads of replys, a thread with the title butterscotch python (any morph will do) will get more hits and reply than have a look at my standard looking python isnt it great all splotchy brown

edit; im done with this thread ive made my point.


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> edit; im done with this thread ive made my point.



That's kind of good to hear, you haven't brought much of substance into this thread. So, it's about hits and replies .... hmmm, I didn't know that.


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## Dannyboi (Apr 18, 2011)

A lot of the point behind that was the white dorsal stripe no? If you continue reading Waterrat goes on about the white stripe being more common in the wild and even questions whether that is something to do with husbandry. Thus showing that he truly cares for the treatment and wellbeing of them. Yes he is interested in colour but he clearly shows a fair amount of interest in the production of these colours and the behavior of the animals. Yes he also has "Mite Phase" but he keeps classic locality pure animals in an area suited for them in the most natural conditions he can showing he has an interest in them for more than the colour.

Keep up the good work with these animals. I know that if I decide to ever buy any it will be from you.


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## HILDY (Apr 18, 2011)

People keep snakes because they are beautiful amazing animals, examples ever seen a green tree snake climbling throughout a tree with little effort (one of my faves to watch) or a python hitting its prey with so much force. They are many many more amazing things about these animals. Love them for what they are not their colours.


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> A lot of the point behind that was the white dorsal stripe no? If you continue reading Waterrat goes on about the white stripe being more common in the wild and even questions whether that is something to do with husbandry.



I think the squander was about my exotic mongrels, not the natives ... I hope. 
Selective breeding for enhanced white stripe in native GTPs is not morphing. It's putting back what captive breeding took out.


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## Dannyboi (Apr 18, 2011)

I was sticking up for you waterrat.


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## zack13 (Apr 18, 2011)

Don't let this thread stop I'll have to stop eating my popcorn


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## giglamesh (Apr 18, 2011)

being a sheep like a lot on this site afraid to say there views to the more experienced for fear of flaming and rejection.


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## fugawi (Apr 18, 2011)

Its interesting reading all the varying opinions here. We are Aussies and not Yanks and our ideas about our natives and environments are different. The Yank ideal is they are "Free" to do whatever they want, screw the consequences. Where we are here debating ( and arguing) the merits of xing, morphing and hybridisation. As long as we have these varying opinions, we will never go down the American path. At the moment Morphing and line breeding for colours and patterns is the new "In thing" and will never go away, as long as there is a market. It is probably inevitable we will start to cross Aussie natives. I'm not a fan but it will be market driven.

Reptile keeping is slowly changing from a hobby into mainstream pet industry in Australia. The hobbyists want to keep things Natural, whereas the Pet side wants something new, interesting and profitable. They want something "Designer" like a Labradoodle or a hand bag dog. As long as we have the hobbyists I think we will be ok.

Unfortunately, with all things pet industry, breeders will euthanize the unsellable and the unhealthy. A small fact most people don't know is that Rotties have a natural variation which is long haired. It is kept a secret and ALL long haired ones are euthanized at birth...NO EXCEPTIONS. I can see this thing happening in the reptile industry.

I, myself don't like morphs or crosses, just the wild type. I will still research them in the wild and in captivity, learn their histories etc.....I suppose that makes me a Hobbyist.


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## zack13 (Apr 18, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> being a sheep like a lot on this site afraid to say there views to the more experienced for fear of flaming and rejection.



Incase that was aimed at me I'll point out that for the most part I agree with you. The hypocrisy in this thread is off the charts. I however realize there is no point in arguing regardless of the side you arguing for as neither are going to change their mind.


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## giglamesh (Apr 18, 2011)

zack13 said:


> Incase that was aimed at me I'll point out that for the most part I agree with you. The hypocrisy in this thread is off the charts. I however realize there is no point in arguing regardless of the side you arguing for as neither are going to change their mind.


 
no not directed at you


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## waruikazi (Apr 18, 2011)

???


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## Cockney_Red (Apr 18, 2011)

I take my Herps "on the rocks"


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

Cheers Gordo, I will join you soon.
Now it's getting really confusing who is directing what at whom, poor Zack13, he must be choking on his popcorn.


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## zack13 (Apr 18, 2011)

Michael I have a question for you since you do have a deep and thorough understanding of gtp's and were a zoologist. 
If a PhD student was to look at the different localities of gtp's to see if there is enough genetic diversity in them to sort them as different subspecies what would you think the outcome would be?


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## ramzee86 (Apr 18, 2011)

This is pretty crazy... 
Whether we like it or not something more colourful/bright or different is going to be more sought after...
i don't think people (such as giglamesh and kawasikrider) are really getting what the point of this thread is.

First, i think Michael is trying to say that making a hybrid, an UNNATURAL snake (which most of the time has a a deformity), just for colours is pretty LOW... - (And he is asking for reasons for it, if it isn't colours)
Second, Breeding two GTP's (or any other snake) for best qualities of both (Even if they are different locality), creates a NATURAL snake, with Natural characteristics that could be found in the wild, and will act like its wild cousins...
im sure the 'Mite Phase' GTP's can be found in the wild, because its not like they have been crossed with anything.

Third, A brighter Jungle carpet python is going to be more sought after than a dull one, because either way they are both naturally occurring, both have the same characteristics but one is brighter, so may as well get the brighter one?

Its just pretty ridiculous how some people don't see the difference between breeding a Woma and a Burmese for colours compared to breeding two Australian Native green tree pythons for a brighter green/better dorsal stripe.


I respect you michael for putting up with the crap people give you when they really have no idea... especially when this thread had nothing to do with your collection when you started it.


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## longqi (Apr 18, 2011)

It seems that fairly soon the morelia viridis will no longer be morelia viridis
The experts are trying to sort out exactly what to call them now
They will probably end up as three or possibly more sub species within one grouping


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## ToadCountry (Apr 18, 2011)

To quote Minka

"....Also, because of the selection pressure for performance, no horse breeder in their right mind would actively select for a conformational fault, as occurs in certain small animal breeds. 

The truth is there is room for every flavour in the hobby. I am not going to get into the nitty gritty of why i keep what i keep simply because it is pointless as each to their own right?..."

Incidence of the endothelin receptor B mutation th... [Am J Vet Res. 2001] - PubMed result
Hyperkalaemic periodic paralysis in homozygous and... [Equine Vet J. 1999] - PubMed result
Index
VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Equine - References - CID: The Paradigm Has Shifted
And some great articles on Lavender Foal Syndrome.....it involves the single deletion of the myosin 5A gene.

Some nice percentages for you..........and it bears thinking about that breeders will still breed knowing the risks.

Same analogy of horses to reptiles, of course 
And by your own inclusion - you state that no horse breeder in their right mind would breed knowing the risks?

My point is, that not every "breeder" is in their right mind. LOL......
Especially when "colour" and "markings" are a primary consideration.


----------



## zack13 (Apr 18, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> This is pretty crazy...
> Whether we like it or not something more colourful/bright or different is going to be more sought after...
> i don't think people (such as giglamesh and kawasikrider) are really getting what the point of this thread is.
> 
> ...


 
I would like to know how breeding two different localities such as an Aussie native and one from mainland Papua is natural. Last time I checked they don't fly planes or catch boats to breed.



longqi said:


> It seems that fairly soon the morelia viridis will no longer be morelia viridis
> The experts are trying to sort out exactly what to call them now
> They will probably end up as three or possibly more sub species within one grouping


 
If you were answering my question thank you. Personally I think they will be grouped into different subspecies and wouldn't mind doing my PhD on it.


----------



## ramzee86 (Apr 18, 2011)

zack13 said:


> I would like to know how breeding two different localities such as an Aussie native and one from mainland Papua is natural. Last time I checked they don't fly planes or catch boats to breed.


 
Your taking it out of context, all i was trying to say is that breeding two different localites of the same species - which will display normal wild behaviours is extremely different to breeding a carpet python to a ball python - which will never show natural behaviours because they are complete different species.

and _Toad Country_ i find it extremely hard to believe that all of your snakes are locality specific.


----------



## Southside Morelia (Apr 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> I dont think many people complain about selective breeding for colour within a species
> Which really alters no genetic codes as far as I am aware??
> But they do complain about mixing species which must alter genetic codes??
> 
> ...


 I agree with your comments, BUT that is "exactly" the point of conjecture and the main topic of this thread...."Its all in the Colour", people are NOT liking changing the colour of a specie through selective breeding, some would want a "normal" looking bush roaming native animal over a selective/line bred animal that was purposely bred for the desired trait.
The thread has taken a turn for the worse, although Micheal's original thought provoking comment was, are people only purchasing snakes for their colours, or words to that effect. 
About the other comments.....I am also debauched like kawasakirider and wouldn't mind seeing that as an experiment...lol I can only imagine the waxing bills for the girls and boys living near the beach...
They are already experimenting with putting pigs organs into humans and growing ears on rats..it will happen for sure one day. Just like cloning...now that's another topic all together.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

zack13 said:


> Michael I have a question for you since you do have a deep and thorough understanding of gtp's and were a zoologist.
> If a PhD student was to look at the different localities of gtp's to see if there is enough genetic diversity in them to sort them as different subspecies what would you think the outcome would be?


 
Zak, some of it has been done and published by Donnellan & Rollings (the reference is at the end of the "GTP Fact Sheet" - sticky), in a nut shell, they found that the populations north of the PNG central highlands and the southern populations are genetically distinct. The also examined the Australian population v southern PNG. 
There is more work to be done but I think it's happening as we speak. I don't want to say who and what, it's up to the researcher (member here) to comment if he wished to do so. If you were to take it up as a PhD project, make sure you have bottomless research funds because traveling throughout PNG, West Papua and Indonesia is very, very expensive and some of the localities are difficult to access.
I have no idea what the outcome would be, possible split into 2 species, who knows? Hoser already described and named a second species but that's Hoser. Personally, I don't recognise the criteria for sub-species, so won't go into that.

Cheers
M



zack13 said:


> I would like to know how breeding two different localities such as an Aussie native and one from mainland Papua is natural. Last time I checked they don't fly planes or catch boats to breed.



The word "natural" can be ambiguous, especially when it comes to GTP, the're such a can of worms. One species, many, many colour morphs found in different altitudes, some locale specific, some not so.


----------



## zack13 (Apr 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Zak, some of it has been done and published by Donnellan & Rollings (the reference is at the end of the "GTP Fact Sheet" - sticky), in a nut shell, they found that the populations north of the PNG central highlands and the southern populations are genetically distinct. The also examined the Australian population v southern PNG.
> There is more work to be done but I think it's happening as we speak. I don't want to say who and what, it's up to the researcher (member here) to comment if he wished to do so. If you were to take it up as a PhD project, make sure you have bottomless research funds because traveling throughout PNG, West Papua and Indonesia is very, very expensive and some of the localities are difficult to access.
> I have no idea what the outcome would be, possible split into 2 species, who knows? Hoser already described and named a second species but that's Hoser. Personally, I don't recognise the criteria for sub-species, so won't go into that.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for that I didn't realize there was a paper attached to the fact sheet I will go read it now. I also realize it would be expensive I guess I should start saving now lol.


----------



## Southside Morelia (Apr 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Zak, some of it has been done and published by Donnellan & Rollings (the reference is at the end of the "GTP Fact Sheet" - sticky), in a nut shell, they found that the populations north of the PNG central highlands and the southern populations are genetically distinct. The also examined the Australian population v southern PNG.
> There is more work to be done but I think it's happening as we speak. I don't want to say who and what, it's up to the researcher (member here) to comment if he wished to do so. If you were to take it up as a PhD project, make sure you have bottomless research funds because traveling throughout PNG, West Papua and Indonesia is very, very expensive and some of the localities are difficult to access.
> I have no idea what the outcome would be, possible split into 2 species, who knows? Hoser already described and named a second species but that's Hoser. Personally, I don't recognise the criteria for sub-species, so won't go into that.
> 
> ...



The BEST post on the thread, some great insight to a young person that may take up the cause....which was what the thread was started for and what M was trying to get across...although I like my morphs, forgive me M. 
Kudos M and Zack do it Buddy.....


----------



## ToadCountry (Apr 18, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> Your taking it out of context, all i was trying to say is that breeding two different localites of the same species - which will display normal wild behaviours is extremely different to breeding a carpet python to a ball python - which will never show natural behaviours because they are complete different species.
> 
> and _Toad Country_ i find it extremely hard to believe that all of your snakes are locality specific.



I totally agree with you in the first part ramzee86 -and as to the second, I'll let you keep wondering, but I'll give you a hint.....I'm in Cairns mate.


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## zack13 (Apr 18, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> Your taking it out of context, all i was trying to say is that breeding two different localites of the same species - which will display normal wild behaviours is extremely different to breeding a carpet python to a ball python - which will never show natural behaviours because they are complete different species.
> 
> and _Toad Country_ i find it extremely hard to believe that all of your snakes are locality specific.


 
How am I taking it out of context? 
Present in or produced by nature: That is the definition of the word. I think that just because it is accepted by our social norms that localities can be mixed doesn't make it right. I used GTP's as purpose as well since it is very possible they are different subspecies.


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## Waterrat (Apr 18, 2011)

Zak, I am seriously going to devote my time to the red wine now, but when I bet back here in the morning, ...... can you tell me how do you define a sub-species, particularly in relation to DNA?

Cheers
M


----------



## Wookie (Apr 18, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> ???


 
You'll bruise the wine pouring it like that mate, tilt the glass! :lol:


----------



## -Katana- (Apr 18, 2011)

Wookie said:


> You'll bruise the wine pouring it like that mate, tilt the glass! :lol:


 

Peasant!
Pleazze...you decant it and allow it to breathe first!:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## CrystalMoon (Apr 18, 2011)

Akwendi said:


> Peasant!
> Pleazze...you decant it and allow it to breathe first!:lol::lol::lol:


Snicker, at least your all cultured(not like blue vein)I am not refined enough to enjoy imbibing old grapes PMSL...........


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## bump73 (Apr 18, 2011)

How come my cask doesn't come with one of those fancy pouring spouts??:x:?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 18, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> i don't think people (such as giglamesh and kawasikrider) are really getting what the point of this thread is..



If you read my posts, you'd see that I admit that I don't know much about this and I am merely asking for waterrat to explain more, as I was interested.

Maybe you aren't really getting the point of anything.


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## D3pro (Apr 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> can you tell me how do you define a sub-species, particularly in relation to DNA?



1) Take a skin sample, 2) look at the screen with all the numbers and complex dna code structures, 3) say a few smart words then 4) make a huge guess... *

*Step 1 to 3 are not needed

 :lol:


----------



## Jay84 (Apr 18, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> making a hybrid, an UNNATURAL snake (which most of the time has a a deformity), just for colours is pretty LOW...



Huh? Do you know if this is a fact? As i have not heard of increased deformities in hybrids?


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## longqi (Apr 18, 2011)

Interbreeding of distinctly different species such as was done overseas to produce what they call jags has resulted in some neurological problems that were not commonly found in either of the species mixed together
I think that might be classified as a deformity??
To say they have deformities most of the time is probably incorrect but there appears to be a much higher risk of problems

The trouble does not start or finish with that type of problem
I have a friend in Surabaya who had an enormous female jungle???
I say it was a jungle because it looked identical to a top quality Tully
Clearly defined bright yellow and very dark brown
Skull on top of the head
Only difference is that this one weighed 13kg and was over 3 metres long
Absolutely gorgeous snake
He had no idea of the lineage as he bought it in Malaysia at an animal market there

He also has a line of dwarf retics one of which is a striped lavender and also gorgeous at just over 3metres
He put the two together one morning hoping to have them mate
Everything looked good so he left them overnight
He now owns a very badly scarred male retic and a dead female 'jungle'

Admittedly there is a very very slight chance of this happening when any two snakes are put together
But it seems to be much more common when attempting what he did

What will happen with Australian is possibly different because there will not be the same bloodlines being used
But the potential is there whenever we play god for things to happen that are to the detriment of this industry


----------



## DanN (Apr 18, 2011)

"Take a skin sample, 2) look at the screen with all the numbers and complex dna code structures, 3) say a few smart words then 4) make a huge guess... *"

Had me in stitches - pretty much sums it up!


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## Jay84 (Apr 19, 2011)

longqi said:


> Interbreeding of distinctly different species such as was done overseas to produce what they call jags has resulted in some neurological problems that were not commonly found in either of the species mixed together
> I think that might be classified as a deformity?? I thought that JAG's were bred from carpet pythons?
> To say they have deformities most of the time is probably incorrect but there appears to be a much higher risk of problems
> 
> ...


.


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## D3pro (Apr 19, 2011)

Most of the morphs come from constant inbreeding, not interbreeding.


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## longqi (Apr 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> .


I believe that the first jags were from an irian jaya carpet crossed with a mcdowelli if memory serves me correctly
Someone here will have the exact details that were released
But there has always been doubt about exactly who crossed what with which
regardless of that there far too many stories told and documented to ever doubt that jags have a much higher chance of neurological problems than other snakes
Please check any international reptile forum if you doubt this
I have not heard of these problems with Australian bloodlines but we are only at the very start of jags etc

I included that story and the sentence after it which you studiously ignored to point out a fact that is becoming reported more and more as people push the envelope
In 17 years of breeding different varieties of reptile I have had 1 [one] occasion when they attacked each other and at no stage did they look like they were going to kill each other
Hybrid breeders seem to have this as a recurring problem so I think it is very pertinent to this question


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## ramzee86 (Apr 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Huh? Do you know if this is a fact? As i have not heard of increased deformities in hybrids?


 
Really? I think the reason there aren't that many hybrids is because a lot of the time, they will either 1. kill each other, 2. have slugs, 3. Have babies with deformities.

If you breed two Jungles you are more likely to have succesful breeding, eggs and hatchies compared to if you breed a scrub python and a children's python. Correct me if i am wrong?
What snakes can you breed to make a hybrid? - Yahoo! Answers

And from what i know all Jags have neurological deformities, just to different extents.


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## zack13 (Apr 19, 2011)

Out of curiosity has anyone heard about polar bears and grizzly bears mating and producing a new species in the wild. It is quite amazing. 

To longqi I think what Jay is saying is all carpet pythons are one species. This species however consists of many different sub species. 

To Michael I'm not sure I could tell you the difference between them from a genetic perspective. The difference between being a species and sub species seem grey at best to me. I have read numerous scientific reports about it and there have been cases where populations of species have had more diversity in a 35 enzyme loci test then tests done on different sub species. I would be very interested to hear why you do not support the criteria for sub species though and what you would do different.


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## PimmsPythons (Apr 19, 2011)

the first jag was produced by 2 coastal carpets in 1994. i have the info here but i'm not up on the whole copy/paste thing 
cheers
simon


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## krefft (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm yet to have a coffee so this will be brief, but there's nothing like a hybrid thread to bring everyone out of the woodwork.

It's constantly inferred that if your into hybrids, crosses or colour then you must be a newbie or superficial. That's simply not true.
I see no problem in taking an interest in all types of reptiles, be they occurring naturally or not. Plenty of serious long term keepers I know get more excited about some of the crosses being produced these days.

The big truth that many of the purists refuse to accept is that every single one of us here are producing animals for the pet trade...that's all they will ever be, pets. It doesn't matter how anal you want to be on locale they are still just for the pet trade.

You just need to see what Taronga is doing with the Corroboree Frog to grasp the complexity of breeding for a higher purpose. 

I have a friend who has produced several generations on native chondro's. He naturally pairs the most attractive animals together....he's going for high white. How many generations of line breeding locale specific animals does it take before you get a clutch that is no longer a true representation of it's wild ancestors? The answer is it doesn't matter, the results the same...pets.
And if you're really good at it people will no longer believe that they are "pure" and you will be labelled not only cross breeder but a liar also.
It's ok to like both people.


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## Waterrat (Apr 19, 2011)

Kreft, you are right in most what you're saying except for one thing - to apply the term "pet" to reptiles is arbitrary and not accepted by all herp keepers. There is a huge difference between a "pet" that sits on the owners lap, both watching TV (at least that's what the owner thinks) and a reptile, say Peter Krauss's collection. I also don't entirely agree that we all breed reptiles *for* the "pet trade". We are offloading our juveniles to other keepers but not necessarily to pet seekers. I for one question potential buyers as to why they want one of my snakes. If it's for a pet that will be handled to buggary every day by the whole family, I politely suggest to them to go somewhere else. 
Each to their own - I respect that, all I was trying to achieve with this thread was to spark a discussion, which we had, and inspire those with more inquisitive minds to look beyond the colour of the snake. There is a lot more there.


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## krefft (Apr 19, 2011)

Hi Michael, you and I are both big enough to hold a debate without either of us taking it personally, so don't feel you need to go soft on me. It's an entertaining thread, so good job.

Peter Krauss has a collection of snakes that are his pets, as we all do. It's irrelevant whether or not he get's them out and plays with them. It's like saying if you put your parrot on you shoulder it's a pet bird and if you keep it in an avery it's something different.

I find what's now being created in collections really interesting and exciting. 
I spoke to a few people about that Ball x carpet in that excellent thread started by the guy claiming not to be Greg Inglis, despite photographic evidence to the contrary. It's a great looking snake despite it's ancestry. I'd keep it if I could.

I just object to the notion that if this type of thing interests you somehow you must not be a serious keeper...whatever that means.
Ok, now off to work.


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## Waterrat (Apr 19, 2011)

I agree with you Chris, somewhere there I said that in my view, the morphing / crossing is an extension and development of reptile keeping in Australia. It's a fact and I don't have a problem with it. However, all (or most) of the excitement seems to flow in that direction. I am not trying to divert the flow, just point out there are aspects of reptile keeping worth exploring. not just the colour.


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## waruikazi (Apr 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I agree with you Chris, somewhere there I said that in my view, the morphing / crossing is an extension and development of reptile keeping in Australia. It's a fact and I don't have a problem with it. However, all (or most) of the excitement seems to flow in that direction. I am not trying to divert the flow, just point out there are aspects of reptile keeping worth exploring. not just the colour.



If i'm honest the only thing i find exciting about stumbling or chancing a flash new morph is the money i could potentially make out of it. Not much else excites me about them. 

I get far more excited about getting out and finding snakes in the bush. How many people on this forum can actually claim to know enough about the species they keep to reliably find them in the bush?


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## Red-Ink (Apr 19, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If i'm honest the only thing i find exciting about stumbling or chancing a flash new morph is the money i could potentially make out of it. Not much else excites me about them.
> 
> I get far more excited about getting out and finding snakes in the bush. How many people on this forum can actually claim to know enough about the species they keep to reliably find them in the bush?


 
On that note Gordo... can you or anyone else on this thread point me to a good field herping guide (practical not species identification) I am planning to drive down from Cairns to Melbourne at the end of the year and plan to maximise that trip in terms of seeing reptiles...


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 19, 2011)

I have to wonder what the public would say if they thought that their zoo was trying to cross breed our native fauna, horrified is my guess.
Okay, I realize that this attitude would because punters visit these places to see our fauna just the way they were meant to look like and are proud of them, being nostalgic I suppose.
If we can agree on this, then I am sure some may understand why many purists keep reptiles, for the exact same reasons. The only difference is the label, private pets instead of public zoo.
Although I understand what Kreft is saying, and he is absolutely right, I still can’t help feeling that the cross breeding of reptiles badly taints our hobby both in reputation and by the identification confusion these practices cause.
I haven’t read the whole thread, If I am way off topic I appologise.


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## Waterrat (Apr 19, 2011)

Most field herpers are quite secretive about their sites, so I wouldn't hold my breath that such guide would ever be published. Give me a call when you're in Cairns.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 19, 2011)

On the subject of crossing...

Sometimes you see intergrades for sale, now i understand that intergrades are naturally occuring (no problems with that). What i don't understand is how people breed intergrades in captivity. Get two sub-species of morelia in the collection and breed them then call them intergrades, should they not be a straight out cross in captivity?


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## Australis (Apr 19, 2011)

Now natural intergrades, this thread is going to cover all subjects.

Redink,Same way you breed any type in captivity, two of the same.
"Diamonds" and "Coastals" arent exactly meeting up in the wild to
produce intergrades as such... thats an assumption on my part
that your referring to this most "popular" of natural intergrades.

There is a fairly concise explanation by "Bigguy" somewhere on this
website ( i dont have the time for the certain back and forward of it all
right now).


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## Red-Ink (Apr 19, 2011)

Australis said:


> Now natural intergrades, this thread is going to cover all subjects.
> 
> Redink,Same way you breed any type in captivity, two of the same.
> "Diamonds" and "Coastals" arent exactly meeting up in the wild to
> ...


 
Thanks Australis I will have a look for Bigguy's post


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## Morelia4life (Apr 19, 2011)

I can't stand ball pythons. I have had a few and I got rid of them all. They are boring, they don't do anything but hide in a ball, they are bred way too much and "cool" morphs are priced at stupid prices that only the richest can afford. I love snakes but I would never pay $20,000, $50,000 and up for a ball python. I happen to love carpet pythons and other Australian snakes. I think they are attractive, interesting, hardy, and all around amazing snakes. To me, I would take a Jungle over a $5,000 ball python any day. I do like Morphs of the carpets though. Right now the only snake that I do have is a Coastal Jag, but I want either a Bredli or a Granite IJ for my next carpet python.


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## The Devil (Apr 19, 2011)

Wow, 14 pages and still growing.....the thread title "It's all in the colour" says it all and it is CORRECT.
A few years ago there was a poll conducted as to what characteristics influenced people to buy one reptile over another

About 80% responded that the main thing they looked for was colour.....i.e. they wanted to get a pretty looking reptile.


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## waruikazi (Apr 19, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> On that note Gordo... can you or anyone else on this thread point me to a good field herping guide (practical not species identification) I am planning to drive down from Cairns to Melbourne at the end of the year and plan to maximise that trip in terms of seeing reptiles...



Not really. And there's not really much to it so it wouldn't make for a real big book. I'll try and meake a thread about it when i get some time.


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## TigerCoastal (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm still a noob when it comes to things like this and am still forming all of my opinions, but i think alot of the emphasis on color/marking comes from what is seen to be better. Now days everything has to be bigger/better/brighter, and with the steady increase in the number of people who want to/keep herps this trend of breeding to meet the market and have the "newest and best" around. I'm not saying that it is a matter of money, i think the more people keeping herps the better as it helps to inform the rest of the public (if possible :S), and without these new morphs, x-breeds or hybrids i think there would be a few less people keeping herps.

I know when i was looking for my first snake i spent 2 years looking, i bypassed all of the "wild type" snakes, looking for something "special". I got a tiger stripe coastal, as i saw it, it was "special" but not to far removed from what you could see in the wild. Now 3 out of my 5 snakes are wild type, as i didnt buy them on looks alone, but saw them as a chance to keep and learn from a few different species. Even now when i am looking at snakes i find that the "designer" snakes catch my eye, one of the nicest snakes i have seen is a diamond x bredli. I personally dont think that i would ever breed one, i may own one as a display animal one day, but i still keep going back to the wild type animals.


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## Owzi (Apr 19, 2011)

Sorry to go back a few pages, I hadn't looked at this monster of a thread for a few days!
Right of reply to a couple of comments to my earlier post-


Owzi said:


> My thoughts-
> 
> Wild type/Locality type - will look like & behave like it's wild cousins.
> Selective bred/Morph - will have certain colour traits highlighted & behave like its wild cousins.
> ...


 


Craig2 said:


> But its ok to keep them in a box some ppl on here get me.


 


Southside Morelia said:


> Exactly right Craig 2...people have a go at breeding for colours/morphs etc etc as its cruel/disrespectful to the species....yet as you so correctly pointed out Craig, they keep them in a box...LMAO, if you loved and respected them that much, let them out where they should be.... love it.....



Interesting point.
So someone like me, who is interested in the colour & natural behaviour of an animal, keeps it a certain way.
e.g. I'm a big fan of Green Pythons, striking colours & unique behaviour. I keep them in a "box" that allows them to display their natural behaviours like perching, climbing, using their prehensile tail, hunting position, etc. because I enjoy seeing all of these things, not just the colour (as Waterrat asked in his first post).

So for keepers that are only interested in colour, how do they keep their animals?


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## fugawi (Apr 19, 2011)

If you crossed a Bredli with a Ball, one from the deserts of Aust, the other from the jungles of Africa, how do you determine lighting and heating requirements?


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## D3pro (Apr 19, 2011)

fugawi said:


> If you crossed a Bredli with a Ball, one from the deserts of Aust, the other from the jungles of Africa, how do you determine lighting and heating requirements?


 
Lighting won't be needed and heating would be 35-26... just a guess, but that's standard python temps.


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## FAY (Apr 19, 2011)

I have a beautiful albino darwin as anyone who has seen her can attest to. But my most favourite snake is a boring, brown, nothing looking childreni that I will NEVER EVER part with.


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## fugawi (Apr 19, 2011)

What about humidity?


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## jmcsnake (Apr 19, 2011)

This is just my opinion,
Someone mentioned earlier about the 3 types of people, those who hate snakes, those who like snakes but don't know it yet, and those who love snakes. Well I think that last group, those who love snakes could be broken down further.

The first are the people who love having a snake as a pet,

The second are people who love the ecology side of things more and like nothing more than seeing a snake in it's natural environment.

And lastly those who also love the ecology, biology side of things, and enjoy recreating the natural environments these animals live in an attempt to witness/ document natural behaviours in captivity.

I think that these groups of people all merge into each other some what and most people start in one and eventually follow through to the other groups.

One thing most of these groups have in common though is that it's always great to see a nice/unusual looking animal. 

Personally nothing gets me more excited than finding a species in the wild that I have never seen before, but I also get a high out of seeing a fantastically patterned Carpet or a lovely blue tree snake.

Colours are great, but they aren't everything I guess


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 19, 2011)

I think everybody should keep what they want for what ever reason they want, but I also think people should put in at least a few days effort to actually find some of their local species, I just can't believe that there is people who have absolutely zero interest in their snakes natural history and behaviours etc. There must be a spark of interest somewhere.The interest in the animal itself must of come before the colour caught the eye.
I posted pics of a carpet earlier and I can tell you I nearly threw all 120kg of myself into a backflip I buzzed for a week. The Stimmie I posted was in an area so degraded by humans it left a lump in the throat. I didn't expect to see anything there, so I was elated to be able to see the snake (a big old female I think) still hanging in there doing it's thing. We had travelled 3 hours just to find it, despite having our own snakes and knowing others with loads of "quality" Stimmies in boxes. When I first started herping it was all about the snakes now I get excited about seeing tiny skinks scurrying over rocks or poking their noses out of crevices and cracks in tree stumps. The diversity of our herpefauna is astounding, filling virtually every niche our massive country has to offer.
If you own reptiles and haven't explored any further than their enclosures and pretty colours, you have no idea what you are missing.


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 19, 2011)

FAY said:


> I have a beautiful albino darwin as anyone who has seen her can attest to. But my most favourite snake is a boring, brown, nothing looking childreni that I will NEVER EVER part with.


 
Then you don't mind sending down your albino to me then Fay


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## The Devil (Apr 19, 2011)

Check out these 2 pics, I would reckon that 90% of people would choose the jungle, even though they are generally snappy, over the woma.


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## Cockney_Red (Apr 19, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> On the subject of crossing...
> 
> Sometimes you see intergrades for sale, now i understand that intergrades are naturally occuring (no problems with that). What i don't understand is how people breed intergrades in captivity. Get two sub-species of morelia in the collection and breed them then call them intergrades, should they not be a straight out cross in captivity?


 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!!!!!


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## D3pro (Apr 19, 2011)

The Devil said:


> Check out these 2 pics, I would reckon that 90% of people would choose the jungle, even though they are generally snappy, over the woma.


 
I don't know.... that woma is pretty nice


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## grimbeny (Apr 19, 2011)

I would like a GTP because I think they look cool, am I a monster?


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## D3pro (Apr 19, 2011)

fugawi said:


> What about humidity?



A cross between to arid species would have very similar requirements. Crossing a species that prefers high humidity (like a GTP) with one that doesn't (almost all carpet pythons) would require I bit more thought.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 19, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!!!!!


 
What a thought provoking post to a very interesting discussion. Got anymore gloden snipets of knowledge you would like to share with us....


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## Radar (Apr 19, 2011)

Intergrades are bred in captivity by using intergrade parents, from wild caught intergrade stock or it's decendent stock....not from crossing subspecies.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 19, 2011)

rednut said:


> Intergrades are bred in captivity by using intergrade parents, from wild caught intergrade stock or it's decendent stock....not from crossing subspecies.



Cheers mate...


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## Cockney_Red (Apr 19, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> What a thought provoking post to a very interesting discussion. Got anymore gloden snipets of knowledge you would like to share with us....


 
If my exclamation of extreme exasperation flew over your Swede mate, I'm sure 90% of posters on this thread, read your post with the same reaction as mine...


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## Red-Ink (Apr 19, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> If my exclamation of extreme exasperation flew over your Swede mate, I'm sure 90% of posters on this thread, read your post with the same reaction as mine...



Oh I'm sure they would have, though you were the only one to provide such a well thought response.


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## Cockney_Red (Apr 19, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Oh I'm sure they would have, though you were the only one to provide such a well thought response.


 
Yeh, I wear my heart on my sleeve....


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## cement (Apr 19, 2011)

Was gonna comment, but then had to go relocate a death adder. A common, average one, in colour and size but what was interesting was its movements for the past 24 hrs at this time of year.
If i ever get that sort of a buzz out of looking at jags in cages, i'll give up.

Now before any of you pro jag people take to me with your voodoo dolls and backstabbing, read what i wrote again and understand that I am not making comment on you, personally.


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## GeckoJosh (Apr 19, 2011)

The Devil said:


> Check out these 2 pics, I would reckon that 90% of people would choose the jungle, even though they are generally snappy, over the woma.


 Your right, but only because that is one cracking jungle!!!!!, if the jungle wasnt so nice I would pick the Woma though.
So do I get to keep the Jungle now?


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 19, 2011)

cement said:


> Was gonna comment, but then had to go relocate a death adder. A common, average one, in colour and size but what was interesting was its movements for the past 24 hrs at this time of year.
> If i ever get that sort of a buzz out of looking at jags in cages, i'll give up.
> 
> Now before any of you pro jag people take to me with your voodoo dolls and backstabbing, read what i wrote again and understand that I am not making comment on you, personally.


 
What were ir's movements?


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## Snakewoman (Apr 19, 2011)

My female proserpine coastal and female Bredli are the best coloured snakes I have, my other four could be considered by some to have 'boring' colouration, a dark coastal, dark water python, olive python and MD. Though they aren't bright, I consider them to be stunning animals, and I love observing their behaviour, they all act differently. My olive is by far the most active and is very inquisitive and has a wonderful temperament. I appreciate a snake that has nice colours but temperament is more important to me. I love jungles, they're stunning, but if they behave like chainsaws like my mother's jungle does, then I certainly wouldn't be buying it.


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## The Devil (Apr 19, 2011)

Geckoman said:


> Your right, but only because that is one cracking jungle!!!!!, if the jungle wasnt so nice I would pick the Woma though.
> So do I get to keep the Jungle now?



No sorry, you missed out on the jungle. She went to Melbourne a few months ago......


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## Fantazmic (Apr 19, 2011)

wow what a thread. I have read the whole thing and I have learned quite a bit as a noob and now...as always...I have to have a say.

I did comment on the original ball python X carpet thread in terms of saying that you dont have to hybridise in order to breed a nice coloured snake...and put a pic up of my exotic marked jungle.

I think (as a noob) that i stand by what i meant when I commented on that thread and that is that I would prefer a 'pure bred' (hope thats the right term) over a hybrid anyday.

I think this comes from my appreciation of the generations and generations of careful breeding it takes to create anything unusual from pure stock (not saying that if you went down the pathway of trying to breed a hybrid the same wouldnt apply I get that)...whereas throwing two different snakes together to 'see what you get' can give an instant very spectacular result...if you are lucky....but isnt a result with any substance.....as a line bred snake has the potential to continue to produce attractive animals for generations to come...(hope I'm making sense) I guess i am thinking about hybridising in terms of what do you do next? I mean you get such a mix of types....and the progeny.... what next ?....whereas I guess i view careful breeding with pure snakes to have more of a predctable result (although I admit not always but mostly) 

I know some of you will think that I'm talking rubbish but it is what I think.

I do love colour but I also think temperament is everything......we are one of those....love snakes but didnt know we did till recently types.....and our friends are the same in fact they think they are terrified till proven otherwise. I have been incrediby lucky in that all four of my jungles that I have bought are darlings...with their temperaments getting more placcid and their markings more beautiful with each one I have bought. The ongoing benefit of this is that my snakes have been wonderful ambassadors for the hobby.

I am getting the feeling that there are some of you in this thread that are most annoyed with the rapid growth of the hobby and the hackneyed noobs that are out there....me being one of them....however there are an awful lot of those noobs who are very well intentioned and although know nothing about their snakes in natural habitat and their history etc........are trying their hardest to provide their snakes with the very best care that they possibly can and for that they should be congratulated. Also, I can tell you.....from my days breeding Staffords.....I would value a well intentioned good home over a breeders home anyday.......because it is the care of the animal that is so important.

I have bought my snakes because one day....maybe...and I havent decided yet....my hubby and I might like to have a clutch of jungles. I am fortunate to have kept in contact with both of the breeders I bought from and they have said they will mentor me if I do decide to breed. However, as much as we have bought our snakes for their potential as breeding animals...they are and always will be our pets first.....and yes...my favourite girl Elvira cant sit on the computer screen and watch (hunt) my fingers as they type...because she has grown too large....but she loves nothing more to sit on my lap and watch telly....does it make her any less the beautiful example of an atherton tablelands jungle python

ABSOLUTELY NOT !!

Just my two cents worth...oh and Michael......I know it has really had its moments...but thanks for starting such a controversial thread....its by reading that I have learned what I have...and right or wrong...have cemented my views regarding what I think is a valuable contribution to the hobby.....(right or wrong popular or unpopular) and if people dont post...and...debate....us noobs dont get experience and learn

Regards

Elizabeth


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## dihsmaj (Apr 19, 2011)

I checked out another forum, looked at the 'Morelia carinata' subforum, and had a look at some picc in a few threads.
I saw one post from a man in Michigan 'Give me a corn snake over a Roughie anyday'. I then read another one, 'I'll get one, but only when the Jaguar gene is in it.'
It really is all in the colour...


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## Waterrat (Apr 19, 2011)

.... completely off the topic, impartial and inoffensive. 
Someone emailed me today: "waterrat, do you love your snakes or is it just .....?"
I thought long and hard and my answer is - No, I don't love my snakes, I love my wife but I do look after my snakes with love. Is it strange?


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## Jay84 (Apr 19, 2011)

No, i spend more time with my snakes in the evenings than i do with my partner lol


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## Greenmad (Apr 19, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> No, i spend more time with my snakes in the evenings than i do with my partner lol



Im always in trouble for this.


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## Jay84 (Apr 19, 2011)

They are worth it hahaha


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## saximus (Apr 19, 2011)

I got in trouble when I told my girl that the biggest thing I miss when working interstate is my snakes...


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## Renenet (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm new to snakes and, like another poster mentioned, am therefore still sorting out my opinions. These are my current thoughts, which might be open to revision as I come to understand more about the intricacies and ethics of breeding.

At the moment I'm probably halfway between a pet owner and a naturalist - I love my little stimmie like a family member, but I'm also very interested in where her ancestors came from. For me, a large part of keeping reptiles is knowing something about them. I think it helps me to understand their behaviour and how to keep them in an optimal environment.

While I confess I am attracted to pretty, what I've found pretty so far tends to be something that looks like it could occur in nature. A nice jungle - like the one the Devil posted a few pages back - excites me. Jags do not. To me, crossing a jag morph with a pure carpet ends up looking like a muddy, less-attractive version of the carpet. Even if I did find it attractive, I couldn't bear to purchase a snake that might suffer from neurological difficulties. 

Some have alluded to the higher risk of death or damage when different species of snakes are put together to breed. Although it might result in a beautiful snake, that danger would weigh on my mind. Accidents can always happen where snakes are concerned, but I wouldn't want any snake put in extra jeopardy just to create something that pleases me. 

There have been quite a few constructive, interesting comments in this thread and I've learned a lot. I'll keep checking by for as long as the debate continues.


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## Fantazmic (Apr 20, 2011)

Two things.....firstly something you all dont know about me is I am a relationships counsellor and Michael...you are right on the money......when you say you love your partner the most.....

something I didnt say in my earlier post and it relates back to what Renenet was saying.....if you have a pure jungle and you put it with another jungle you get baby jungles....some will have better markings than others.....but at the end of the day you get jungles and all have the same potential to go on and produce more jungles.....you know what to expect temperament wise and most importantly husbandry wise.....and if you are careful not to breed in too closely......normally unless you have bad luck you should have healthy offfspring. and each of those offspring...brightly coloured or not have the same potential to go on and contribute.......

However if you crossbreed you will have a large variation in offspring for many generations no matter how carefully you breed.....you may get an instant result of a very attractive snake (in some peoples eyes)....but is it likely to produce itself again.....probably not becaue it is an outcross of two completely different snakes........and what do you do next to produce that attractive snake again ? and what are you trying to produce.....i mean if you breed a pure snake you know clearly where you are going and in each generation what you are trying to improve......but it seems with hybrids it is all in the colour....and temperament...well you could get anything...behaviour...welll who knows.... and husbandry needs....well you might you might not get it right.....

and this is why i like pure bred snakes in terms of the ongoing contribution to the hobby in terms of breeding.

Something I have thought of on and off and cannot in my own mind think how it would work....is has there ever been thought around a central register for pure bred snakes....like we have for thoroughbred dogs?


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

Fantazmic said:


> has there ever been thought around a central register for pure bred snakes....like we have for thoroughbred dogs?



I believe something on those line is happening right now in Vic. Can't say any more, perhaps the people involved (APS members) may like to comment.


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## kupper (Apr 20, 2011)

....


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

kupper said:


> wont just be for snakes Michael ..... more details will be released as things progress



Good to hear that the wheels are turning.


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## Fantazmic (Apr 20, 2011)

This is excellent news......it is so needed now the hobby is growing and will give a real sense of being able to protect the pure bred lines and also formally recognise them..


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## Jay84 (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't see how it would work or be policed?


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 20, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I don't see how it would work or be policed?


 
Me either. Thourougbred dogs have traits that need to be met to be certified, I would have thought there would be to much variation in a single species for a standard to be set, plus a lot of captive species could already be considered as muddied up. 

I personally don't care for morphs etc but would think this proposed system would be better suited to them.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 20, 2011)

The whole thoroughbred dog argument is not really a good one as thoroughbred dogs on a whole have more problems than jags. Just a few examples are rollies, are predisposed to cancer and usually die very young, pugs, all sorts of eye and breathing problems, ragdoll cats have all sorts of problems bred into them to make them 'floppy' and the list goes on. What is a good thing for reptiles is the exact opposite in many cases for dogs and cats.


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## kupper (Apr 20, 2011)

...


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 20, 2011)

I like colour.

but seriously, If i was to pick out a new python, it would be based on what it looks like without a doubt.


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## Grogshla (Apr 20, 2011)

I think for newbies to snakes we would go off colour but mainly handling.
Seasoned snake lovers would branch out into more coloured and less handleable snakes.
THis is how i am


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## giglamesh (Apr 20, 2011)

i remember reading a thread a while back, it was about handling snakes before purchasing. one of the posters made it very clear that there was to be no handling for fear of disease transfer if you were looking at buying a snake of theirs. so if you dont get to handle it before buying colour is all you really have to go by in your purchase


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## Grogshla (Apr 20, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> i remember reading a thread a while back, it was about handling snakes before purchasing. one of the posters made it very clear that there was to be no handling for fear of disease transfer if you were looking at buying a snake of theirs. so if you dont get to handle it before buying colour is all you really have to go by in your purchase


 
I think that is a bit extreme but i resepct their choice. A bit of hand sanitizer or rubbing alcohol onto the hands is all it takes to kill the germs. I always use rubbing alcohol and let it dry in before handing any of my reps


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## Red-Ink (Apr 20, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> i remember reading a thread a while back, it was about handling snakes before purchasing. one of the posters made it very clear that there was to be no handling for fear of disease transfer if you were looking at buying a snake of theirs. so if you dont get to handle it before buying colour is all you really have to go by in your purchase



Seems like a reasonable enough stipulation.. they ain't cars no need to take them for a test drive. If the person wanted to see how they handle get the breeder to do it.


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 20, 2011)

Grogshla said:


> I think that is a bit extreme but i resepct their choice. A bit of hand sanitizer or rubbing alcohol onto the hands is all it takes to kill the germs. I always use rubbing alcohol and let it dry in before handing any of my reps


 
But as all mainstream hand sanitizers say on the bottle, "kills 99.9% of all household germs"
Even F10 needs to sit for at least 5mins (even up to 10mins from memory) before washing off to kill all the germs/bacteria/virus' that is says it kills.

I understand where people are coming from to not allow anyone to handle their animals but personally, a spray of F10 and away we go I reckon.


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## giglamesh (Apr 20, 2011)

here it is

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/rude-143282/ 

locked thread, but my point about colour/looks still stands.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 20, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> i remember reading a thread a while back, it was about handling snakes before purchasing. one of the posters made it very clear that there was to be no handling for fear of disease transfer if you were looking at buying a snake of theirs. so if you dont get to handle it before buying colour is all you really have to go by in your purchase


 
This statement really highlights the opening post of this thread.

Quote Waterat "Is the colour of the snake all that people admire? If it is, that's pretty sad and demonstrates the shallow interest in reptiles. "colourful pets" - is that all?"


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 20, 2011)

To further on my previous post.
There are only 2 or 3 snakes that I own that I regularly get out of their enclosure. They are what I would call a pet.
The others are just display animals.


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## giglamesh (Apr 20, 2011)

@steve1
im not the brightest bulb on the tree are you agreeing with my statement?


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

Assessing the looks, handling, "personality", whatever, ....... that's all good if you're buying a reptile form a local breeder (and he/she lets you to go all over the animal). What should people look for or how should they go about selecting a snake say from Pilbara Pythons or from me?


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 20, 2011)

No, I'm saying there is a whole ****load left after handling and colour.



giglamesh said:


> @steve1
> im not the brightest bulb on the tree are you agreeing with my statement?


 
...


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## giglamesh (Apr 20, 2011)

please elaborate, what else to most keepers or potential keepers matters? not the hardcore keepers.

other than health


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> please elaborate, what else to most keepers or potential keepers matters? not the hardcore keepers.
> 
> other than health




locality, line of descendants, the looks of the parents, genetic vigour, robustness, female's breeding history, clutch size, ration of fertile eggs v slugs, breeder's records and reputation, ......
It sometimes astounds me that people wanting to buy a snake from me don't bother to ask for such basic and important information.
If there was a "RSPCA for snakes" may as well go there and grab looks good.


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## ShaunMorelia (Apr 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> What should people look for or how should they go about selecting a snake say from Pilbara Pythons or from me?



The only thing I would be interested in seeing if buying from someone I have never delt with before over the internet or by phone is to get feeding shots.
This way it confirms that the animals is feeding.
That said, its still a trust game.


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## viridis (Apr 20, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I don't see how it would work or be policed?


 
You are correct Jay, it will not work. All it will do is allow buyers to purchase animals from a few designated 'pure sellers' and get a piece of paper stating it. I don't want to put anyone down as if they have time to burn, why not set it up however, any keeper that has been around the traps for more than 10 minutes already knows which breeders have pure species ect.

What are they trying to achieve? A piece of paper stating that the purchased offspring comes from a Pure Antaresia stimsoni x Antaresia stimsoni pairing???????????

It is pointless IMO and it would not be worth the paper it is written on unless they were from wild caught stock from the exact same locales. I would not bother to breed a Broome locale A. stimsoni with a Georgetown locale A. stimsoni. The two animals look nothing alike, come from extremely different environments and are different sizes.

A registry will never change my mind when it comes to pure reptiles as too many people have no idea about the natural environments and habits of the animals that they are saying.

I do not like hybrids, I actually despise them however I will defend hybrid keepers in this post as IMO breeding an Antaresia from 4000kms apart, regardless if they are the same species, is no better than breeding a Palmerston Jungle with a Proserpine Carpet. 

The entire Morelia and Antaresia genuses are so mixed up in natural occurring WILD animals, I think that the only way an animal can be deemed pure should be from animals from the same immediate area.

With the current state of many Australian species were the taxonomists can't even agree, surely, locale specific animals are the only animals that should be deemed pure. 

Whilst I am having a whinge, animals could at best be called pure if they are from the same region i.e, Sandfire Stimsoni bred with a Port Hedland Stimsoni = Pure Pilbara Stimsoni.

I think that breeding M.s. cheynei from Milla Milla with a M.s. cheynei from Upper Daragee still equals a pure Palmerston M.s. cheynei even though they are not both from Milla Milla ect however IMO breeding a BHP from Sandfire (black and white, less than 6 feet as adults) with a Quamby BHP (dirty, big & brown 10 foot long) is worth as much to a region / locale specific pure keeper as a Diamond x Jungle. 

All they are is a captive creation, made by man in unnatural environments, for the pet industry. Most people would not say two words about the BHP offspring even though the two adult BHP that created the hatchlings have as much in common as the Diamond x Jungle cross, whilst many people would make snide remarks about the Morelia cross.

What does my entire whinge of a post have in relation to the colour topic of this thread???????

Everything. 

Unless it is a hard to get species, we would all like the best example of the snake as we can. Why would you want a man made turd coloured snake like a Honey Jungle (biggest joke of a name ever) when we could have a vivid black and fluro yellow example like Nev posted?????????????? If they both were identical in size, temperament and housing requirements, who would want to turd coloured Honey Jungle? Not me!

As captive reptile keepers, all we can try and do is representing the animals in as best as we can to their natural environments. The animals we keep will never be released back into the wild however *sensible* keepers (not *serious* keepers Krefft, as I agree, there are plenty of serious hybrid keepers ) should be worried if their Jaguars escaped into the wild and mated with a wild Morelia. 

I am over the Jag and hybrid debates as the snakes are here to stay. If a Rough Scaled Python escaped in Brisbane, it it bred with a locale carpet, it is still a hybrid (and probable a dog ugly one at that)!

If a Jaguar escaped in the wild and mated with a female Morelia from the same area (nice looking hatchlings), it is still no more of a hybrid that the RSP cross however it is of much greater risk to the eco system and immediate habitat as within 10 years there could be hundreds of neuro ridden pythons which could lead to disaster.

At the end of the day, I think that the Australian reptile scene has taken a turn for the worse. The hobby is full of morons who have no idea about the snakes they are keeping in boxes, no idea and no interest in field herping compared to previous generations of keepers and full of people breeding hundreds of unwanted snakes each year.

I liked the fact that 20 years ago you could buy a Jungle for $100 and there were less than 10 keepers breeding them regularly. All animals found homes each season and people looked forward to putting their names on a waiting list each year to get animals and keepers swapped and exchanged herps that interested them. Breeding snakes was a challenge as there was bugger all information on the captive breeding of many species.

I would like to go back in time and rewind SOME aspects of herping however many things have improved in the 21st century I guess.........................


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 20, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> please elaborate, what else to most keepers or potential keepers matters? not the hardcore keepers.
> 
> other than health


 
I wasn't speaking for most keepers I was speaking for all of us and in response to your statement that you feel there is nothing left after handling and colour.
Species is the most important thing to consider and why you want to keep a particular species, despite what it looks like it's still the same species and holds the same interest for me as far as it's natural history, habits-behaviours, habitat preferances,diet, reproduction,etc.

Actually I guess your right there is nothing left after handling and colour, simply because they're the only two things left after everything else is considered.

P.s. What do you consider a hardcore keeper?


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

Nick, what an effort, wouldn't your time be better spend writing field herping articles for Scales & Tails?

If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!


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## killimike (Apr 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> locality, line of descendants, the looks of the parents, genetic vigour, robustness, female's breeding history, clutch size, ration of fertile eggs v slugs, breeder's records and reputation, ......
> It sometimes astounds me that people wanting to buy a snake from me don't bother to ask for such basic and important information.
> If there was a "RSPCA for snakes" may as well go there and grab looks good.



I'm with you there Michael! I would like to ask these questions of people I buy snakes from, but am very wary of being labelled a tyre kicker. There is less of an imperative when you are buying cheaper snakes, not that there really should be, but I still think these are important factors.


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## kupper (Apr 20, 2011)

....


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## killimike (Apr 20, 2011)

viridis said:


> I liked the fact that 20 years ago you could buy a Jungle for $100 and there were less than 10 keepers breeding them regularly...


 
Apart from the nostalgia stuff, I just wanted to say congrats man, I didn't think you looked old enough to be in the game 40 years ago! Unless I'm thinking of someone else :S


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

"It is pointless IMO and it would not be worth the paper it is written on unless they were from wild caught stock from the exact same locales."

This is a sweeping statement.
Certain species with limited and isolated distribution can be granted a "locale specific" status. For example, Rough-scaled pythons, Aussie GTPs, Broad-headed snakes, Chappell Island tiger snakes, _Nactus galgajuga_ (Black Mt. gecko) and the skink, just to name a few - they couldn't have come from any other place but a very specific place that limits their distribution.
Any wild caught specimens supplied (and certified) by the WA licenced collectors can and should be registered as pure, locality specific snakes. The problem is, once these snakes blend into someone's collection and are paired up with other, locale unknown specimens, that's the end of the pure line.


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## longqi (Apr 20, 2011)

This breeders database is a really great idea in most ways
If a demerit/merit system is introduced with it that would quickly weed out those who did not treat it seriously
For now in Australia things are still pretty well defined into localities and most species can be identified with their original area
Do a google search on various Aussie species being sold overseas as locality specific and you will wonder what you are looking at
Or look up 'Pure Biak for sale' and try to guess at the actual heritage

While the craze right now is morphs and hybrids in the future there will be growing demand for 'pure' lines because mixed and matched reptiles will eventually go out of fashion
At that time any breeder who has proven locality specific animals will be in the winners circle

Just two other quick questions
Have there been any signs of neurological problems within Australia from Australian bred Jags??
Were there any signs of problems in the original line of Jags or did they start after the Irian Jaya Carpets were introduced?


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

Peter, your two questions call for the "inconvenient truth".


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## ToadCountry (Apr 20, 2011)

WOW.......
This is the best topic to come up in a long time.

Without knowing the details of a proposed "breeder" certification (if that is what it is?)......not much to add, 
except that in order to certify I imagine microchipping would be part of the process along with visual and dna testing?


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## bump73 (Apr 20, 2011)

longqi said:


> Have there been any signs of neurological problems within Australia from Australian bred Jags??


 
Yes there have been neuro issues with jags in Australia anyone who claims otherwise must have $$$ invested in them. The good thing is that a few sellers are acknowledging this and have warnings of possible issues on their websites etc..

Ben


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## Jay84 (Apr 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!


 
I wasn't criticizing or saying it will not work. I asked how it would work and how it would be policed.


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## Waterrat (Apr 20, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I don't see how it would work or be policed?



You don't see, you doubt, you wonder - it's a statement Jay. However ......


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## Jay84 (Apr 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!





Waterrat said:


> You don't see, you doubt, you wonder - it's a statement Jay. However ......


 
My question was just that... a QUESTION about how this will work. How is that a criticism???? 

Just because i don't know the first and last thing about it, does this mean i can not ask how it will work???

I didn't know a question out of genuine interest was so unacceptable?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 20, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I didn't know a question out of genuine interest was so unacceptable?



Mine were.


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## Mitchie (Apr 20, 2011)

I like pythons for their natural beauty. 
I feel like this is another example of mankind's cancerous obsession with changing everything about the earth that we live on.

do we really want to live in some human created fantasy land??


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## Jungle_Fever1 (Apr 20, 2011)

I put up my post on the Ball python X capet as when i was in America i seen it for the first time and never heard of it before.

I Had heard of a Woma X Ball though. 

Just thought people might like to see it, I was not saying i wanted it or promoting it.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 20, 2011)

Mitchie said:


> I like pythons for their natural beauty.
> I feel like this is another example of mankind's cancerous obsession with changing everything about the earth that we live on.
> 
> do we really want to live in some human created fantasy land??


 
Curious.... What do you consider (quality/looks wise) their natural beauty?


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## Morelia4life (Apr 20, 2011)

bump73 said:


> Yes there have been neuro issues with jags in Australia anyone who claims otherwise must have $$$ invested in them. The good thing is that a few sellers are acknowledging this and have warnings of possible issues on their websites etc..
> 
> Ben


 
Over here in America, our jags have neuro issues too. I have been talking to a lot of people over here about it, and I think that all jags have the neuro genes but they are dormant and they don't show signs of neurological issues until they are stressed out enough from something like moving, breeding, harsh chemicals.... things like that. That is just what I think it is.


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## longqi (Apr 20, 2011)

Ty Bump I am a bit out of the picture in Aus now

Ok cool ^^^Morelia
Did the first signs of neuro damage in USA come from the supposedly original batch of jags from Sweden
Or did it surface after the irian jayas were introduced into the mix??

Just wondering if mixing in a gene pool from a definitely tropical area with subtropical genes may have something to do with it???

I know little about jags except that they are beautiful but have shown signs of too many problems
[bit like my ex really]


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## Mitchie (Apr 20, 2011)

well red-ink I grew up fascinated by snakes, pythons, reptiles, etc.. so if there was some crazy purple, green and white patterned snake that lived in Australia endemically!! Yes I would be amazed at it's natural beauty and buy one.

I think it's weird that people want to screw around with genetic's purely for look's.. It's vein! 
Mess with genetic's for productive purposes not pointless money driven one's
If you like hybrids so much move to America! Keep Australia pure off mutations!!!


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## Morelia4life (Apr 20, 2011)

longqi said:


> Ty Bump I am a bit out of the picture in Aus now
> 
> Ok cool ^^^Morelia
> Did the first signs of neuro damage in USA come from the supposedly original batch of jags from Sweden
> ...


 
I couldn't even tell you that to be honest. Over here, we have Coastal Jags, Irian Jaya jags, Bredli Jags, Jungle jags, and Diamond Jungle jags. All I know is that the first jags were brought over in 1994 and they were proven out in 1998. For all I know, the parents could have had the neuro genes and passed them onto the first clutch of jags and it all started from there. I believe that the first jags hatched out from normal looking parents, if I am not mistaken.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 20, 2011)

Still Mitchie (and I'm not having a go).... What is a natural beauty by your standards growing up with the fascination with them as that was not answered in your post.


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## Fantazmic (Apr 20, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> The whole thoroughbred dog argument is not really a good one as thoroughbred dogs on a whole have more problems than jags. Just a few examples are rollies, are predisposed to cancer and usually die very young, pugs, all sorts of eye and breathing problems, ragdoll cats have all sorts of problems bred into them to make them 'floppy' and the list goes on. What is a good thing for reptiles is the exact opposite in many cases for dogs and cats.


 
Having bred throughbred Staffordshire Bull Terriers for the last 10 years and mixed with a lot of breeders and 'know' the industry inside out...this post is really uninformed....


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## dihsmaj (Apr 20, 2011)

Plimpy said:


> I checked out another forum, looked at the 'Morelia carinata' subforum, and had a look at some picc in a few threads.
> I saw one post from a man in Michigan 'Give me a corn snake over a Roughie anyday'. I then read another one, 'I'll get one, but only when the Jaguar gene is in it.'
> It really is all in the colour...


 Found both the quotes, they're by the same person:

quote 1:
A very over rated snake due to rarity value. Give me a corn snake any day!
quote 2:
'I think carinata should be very interesting snake once crossed with GTP's, boelens and the zebra and jaguar genes!'

These are BOTH talking about the RSP, but it's also about people wanting better looking snakes. 


Rule #32 said:


> Enjoy the little things.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 20, 2011)

Fantazmic said:


> Having bred throughbred Staffordshire Bull Terriers for the last 10 years and mixed with a lot of breeders and 'know' the industry inside out...this post is really uninformed....


 Did I say anything about Bull Terriers. I used to breed cats and also know a lot of dog and cat breeders, and I never once said all breeds, I said there are definitely breeds that have very bad traits bred into them.


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## Fantazmic (Apr 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Assessing the looks, handling, "personality", whatever, ....... that's all good if you're buying a reptile form a local breeder (and he/she lets you to go all over the animal). What should people look for or how should they go about selecting a snake say from Pilbara Pythons or from me?



Michael when i first bought my jungles I was so scared to import anything I found a local breeder. I actually bought for temperament. I didnt get to hold the snake the breeder did that in front of me and I just watched Elvira and she seemed curious and calm and so I picked her. Having been a breeder myself (of staffies) the way the snakes were kept was also important I wanted to buy from someone ethical. A few months ago I bought from QLD I was so nervous about what I was being sent but I have to say that the breeder was so ethical what he said I would get I got and so I would import again. As to questions about clutch size etc I didnt ask them because I havent even really thought about breeding...well maybe a tiny bit....it was more knowing that they are healthy etc that meant something to me


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## Mitchie (Apr 20, 2011)

That's fine Red-Ink no offence taken, just got a bit carried away because I feel this is an important topic to debate . Natural beauty to me is anything in nature that is amazing and stunning without genetic alteration,
because it obviously isn't natural for humans to force different species of python to breed with each other. I am really interested in the behaviour of pythons also, not just the looks. 

Sorry if I'm going on a bit lol. Please tell me if you think I'am wrong.


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## Jay84 (Apr 20, 2011)

Fantazmic said:


> Having bred throughbred Staffordshire Bull Terriers for the last 10 years and mixed with a lot of breeders and 'know' the industry inside out...this post is really uninformed....


 
We all know that lots of purebred dogs suffer ailments due to their breeding for certain traits. This is no secret.

You only have to look in any dog breed book for it to list all the ailments commonly found in each breed. You only have to watch any of the Vet TV shows to get a small insight.


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## D3pro (Apr 21, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> We all know that lots of purebred dogs suffer ailments due to their breeding for certain traits. This is no secret.
> 
> You only have to look in any dog breed book for it to list all the ailments commonly found in each breed.


 
+1 many vets will confirm this. quite sad


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## kawasakirider (Apr 21, 2011)

Is the comment in this thread about long haired rotties being knocked off at birth true? That is so horrid 

Cocker spaniels are bred for red coats, but it's linked to an aggressive dog, lol.


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## Waterrat (Apr 21, 2011)

ToadCountry said:


> WOW.......
> This is the best topic to come up in a long time.
> 
> Without knowing the details of a proposed "breeder" certification (if that is what it is?)......not much to add,
> except that in order to certify I imagine microchipping would be part of the process along with visual and dna testing?



As you said, lets not jump the gut, no one has got any information so far to form an opinion. 
Microchipping is DEFINITELY not on! Subcutaneous pit tagging is useless, the tag can be easily removed, that's apart from the aesthetics, and internal microchipping requires surgery under LA - who would pay for it?


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## Morelia4life (Apr 21, 2011)

I don't know about you guys, but I would take my snake out of any ball python cross.


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## Wookie (Apr 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> I don't know about you guys, but I would take my snake out of any ball python cross.
> 
> View attachment 196523
> View attachment 196524


 
Very, erm...natural snake you have there :lol:


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## Jay84 (Apr 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> I don't know about you guys, but I would take my snake out of any ball python cross.
> 
> View attachment 196523
> View attachment 196524


 
Wow.... what a perfect example of a 'wild type' morelia there hahahaha.

I think your argument now is null and void lol


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## Morelia4life (Apr 21, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Wow.... what a perfect example of a 'wild type' morelia there hahahaha.
> 
> I think your argument now is null and void lol


 
I didn't do it to show that is was a wild type morelia...... any one with half a brain will know a coastal jag isn't from the wild. 
I was just showing it because I like carpets and I would take any carpet over any ball python morph or ball python hybrid. 
Also, I am not arguing with anyone so I don't know where that came from. I just can't stand ball pythons and I think there are 
so many other snakes that are better than them. To me, they are boring, ugly, dull, non interactive, some can be picky eaters, they don't get large enough, so on and so on.


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## fugawi (Apr 21, 2011)

Haven't looked at this for a while, so many new views.

It is interesting to see that MOST Aussies seem to have more ethics and morals when it comes to Xs and Jags compared to our international counterparts. Just simply the fact that we are debating this shows we won't go down the same path.

With Dogs, you can't use them as any type of example due to the fact they have been cross and interbred over thousands of years, except to show "what might happen if.... " Just crossing two Morelias to get a Jag has shown up neurological problems, what will show up in unlike species crosses?

With pedigree, I think going locale specific is a bit too far, a Morelia SpilotaSpilota, whether it comes from nth or sth of Sydney is still a Diamond Python. You could always put locales in the family tree part anyway ( but it would be purely trust).

On mentioning RSPs, (slightly unrelated) How do Americans have RSPs in their collection anyway? Would these not be, by definition, illegal exports from Australia?


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## Morelia4life (Apr 21, 2011)

I heard there are a few people over here with RSP. I don't know how true it is though. I heard something like they are on a loan???


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 21, 2011)

Yep if they were 20 grand here imagine what the price would have been to sneak one out.


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## Jay84 (Apr 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> I didn't do it to show that is was a wild type morelia...... any one with half a brain will know a coastal jag isn't from the wild.
> I was just showing it because I like carpets and I would take any carpet over any ball python morph or ball python hybrid.
> Also, I am not arguing with anyone so I don't know where that came from. I just can't stand ball pythons and I think there are
> so many other snakes that are better than them. To me, they are boring, ugly, dull, non interactive, some can be picky eaters, they don't get large enough, so on and so on.


 
This thread isn't about ball pythons.... it is about liking snakes for their colour etc. You have chosen a morelia morph over a wild type/ locality animal.


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## Morelia4life (Apr 21, 2011)

Ok.... I like Jags, so what? My next carpet is going to be a bredli, than a plan on getting a pair of Jungles, than I plan on getting a Granite IJ. I like all carpets, I don't care if they are the wild type or a morph. If it makes you feel better, my first carpet ever was an IJ. I plan on having around 20 carpet pythons one day. Some will be morphs and some will be normals. Everyone has their own taste in snakes. Just like some people like making ugly hybrids. Would I ever buy a Ball x retic hybrid or a ball x carpet hybrid... NO, but some do.


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## Waterrat (Apr 21, 2011)

The debate drifted from colours to naturals v others, I guess it's inevitable, that's where most of the differences are. There is also noticeable emphasis on Morelia, i.e. carpets. Lets hear from the Liasis keepers, surely, they didn't choose those species for colours. What about the many species of elapids in collections - what takes your fancy - colour, behaviour, fascination with deadliness? If I may use the term "serious keepers" as opposed to pet owners - the ven keepers must be the ones. Is it likely that we are going to see Jag-adders or such? Oh, of course, there are scaleless adders already.
I am not picking on any particular group, just extending the debate away from carpets.


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## Jay84 (Apr 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> Ok.... I like Jags, so what? My next carpet is going to be a bredli, than a plan on getting a pair of Jungles, than I plan on getting a Granite IJ. I like all carpets, I don't care if they are the wild type or a morph. If it makes you feel better, my first carpet ever was an IJ. I plan on having around 20 carpet pythons one day. Some will be morphs and some will be normals. Everyone has their own taste in snakes. Just like some people like making ugly hybrids. Would I ever buy a Ball x retic hybrid or a ball x carpet hybrid... NO, but some do.


 
I am not criticizing your choice of snakes. I myself have nothing against JAG's, morphs or hybrids


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## Morelia4life (Apr 21, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I am not criticizing your choice of snakes. I myself have nothing against JAG's, morphs or hybrids


 
Thank you. The only snakes that I do not agree with, is hybrids. That is it. I do not think hybrids should be created under any circumstance.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> Ok.... I like Jags, so what? My next carpet is going to be a bredli, than a plan on getting a pair of Jungles, than I plan on getting a Granite IJ. I like all carpets, I don't care if they are the wild type or a morph. If it makes you feel better, my first carpet ever was an IJ. I plan on having around 20 carpet pythons one day. Some will be morphs and some will be normals. Everyone has their own taste in snakes. Just like some people like making ugly hybrids. Would I ever buy a Ball x retic hybrid or a ball x carpet hybrid... NO, but some do.


 
People cross balls with retics??? That's crazy.


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## Jay84 (Apr 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> The debate drifted from colours to natulars v others, I guess it's inevitable, that's where most of the differences are. There is also noticeable emphasis on Morelia, i.e. carpets. Lets hear from the Liasis keepers, surely, they didn't choose those species for colours. What about the many species of elapids in collections - what takes your fancy - colour, behaviour, fascination with deadliness? If I may use the term "serious keepers" as opposed to pet owners - the ven keepers must be the ones. Is it likely that we are going to see Jag-adders or such?
> I am not picking on any particular group, just extending the debate away from carpets.


 
Antaresia - I have Platinum Mac and Wheatbelt stimmies. BOTH IMO the prettiest of the antaresia group.

Vens - I chose Northern Death Adders, mine are beautiful colours, oranges and beige. I have also got an Albino Death adder.

My view is - I love pretty things, i like pretty colours and patterns. But i do have an interest in the ecology and natural history. Not to the extent of other keepers but is still an interest.

In Feb i went on 2 herping trips, one to Gosford, NSW and the other to Darwin. Both of these were for the sole purpose of herping. I love it. Getting dirty, rummaging around in the bush, capturing and photographing snakes.

I chose my animals not just due to colour, i like the species. But i would never own a normal carpet, a normal coloured childreni etc etc (all dull and boring in my eyes). I like the genus, and then choose the species and individuals for colour and pattern.

P.S - when i can afford them i will get albino Macs, piebald childreni, scaleless adders etc etc. I appreciate the species for what they are.... BUT I WANT THE PRETTIEST ONES! lol


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## Morelia4life (Apr 21, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> People cross balls with retics??? That's crazy.


 
Yes over here in the states, people have crossed balls with retics, burms, carpets, angolans, bloods, and I think that is it so far. I don't know why but whatever.


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## Waterrat (Apr 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> Yes over here in the states, people have crossed balls with retics, burms, carpets, angolans, bloods, and I think that is it so far. I don't know why but whatever.



There can only be one mission in this madness - "I have done it, now I am a lesser God"


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## Morelia4life (Apr 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> There can only be one mission in this madness - "I have done it, now I am a lesser God"


 
Yes. I think you are right. I believe that is why people do it. They think they are God but they aren't. I think they do it for the money as well. 
I seen one ad for a carpall. He took a ball python bred it to a IJ carpet and was charging $2,000 a piece.


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## impulse reptiles (Apr 21, 2011)

ball x retic, what a bunch of clowns


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## Waterrat (Apr 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> They think they are God but they aren't.



Of course not. I am God. :shock:


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## longqi (Apr 21, 2011)

But you must remember that some retics are called dwarfs for a reason
Not all sub species are the giants we imagine them all to be in Aus so it would be possible

Although I still disagree with that practice


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## viridis (Apr 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Nick, what an effort, wouldn't your time be better spend writing field herping articles for Scales & Tails?
> 
> If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!


 
Please use your boggling mind and explain how it will work _*in detail*_ Michael. You have been mentioning this idea ever since you joined the forum back when your name was 'Craftsman'. This was at least 3 years ago now so why have you not taken it further and got something off the ground? I understand that setting something up like this would take time but I assumed that if it was going to be implemented, it would taken off by now.



Waterrat said:


> " The problem is, once these snakes blend into someone's collection and are paired up with other, locale unknown specimens, that's the end of the pure line.




So basically, after the 'certified' animal leaves the sellers collection, future buyers only have their 'word' that they are from the certified 'pure' stock? If you will not be using pit tagging, micro chipping or using DNA to prove the animal in mention, than how the hell are you going to prove the animal is what it is????????????????????

A photograph will not suffice for a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head. 

1) People have enough trouble posting clear photos for animals for sale as it is.

2) Animals like your Chondros, pattern less Childreni, Olives, Water Pythons, Adders PLUS nearly every other standard, non morph snake in Australia. MOST of the snakes show that little difference in photographs, they simply could not be used for I.Ding an animal.

So basically, all you can do is take the sellers word for what they are selling which is how it works now. 

If it could work, I would be happy to support the idea but after hearing about it for three years from a few different people, can someone please explain IN DETAIL how it will be 100% guaranteed to work and the animals in mention can never be questioned. I genuinely want to know how you mob are going to achieve this?

Another problem I can see is that sellers who already have animals in their collections that they want to add as pure stock on the register (like your Green Pythons), how would they do it? The only animals that could be used if this was to be taken serious would be animals from licensed takers like Dave Mackintosh, Garry Davies and David Reed.

For other species that are not allowed to be taken from the wild legally, all that is to be relied on is the seller’s word, much like it is today.



Once again, I must stress that if this ever gets off the ground and accepted by the *majority* of Australian herps, than I will eat my words and apologise to anyone who thinks that I am being an unrealistic downer. I can see a few people thinking it is a good idea however unless I am missing the method of proof that is easy, fool proof and 100% guaranteed, I doubt it will be widely recognised.


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## Waterrat (Apr 21, 2011)

Nick, you're completely on the wrong path. This "certification" .. whatever has nothing to do with what I proposed 5 years ago re- GTP. I am not involved in this register, I know no more about that than you do .... which is not enough to form an opinion, not to mention a critique. 
Didn't I say in this thread that this proposed register is happening in Victoria? You know where I am. Wow!

Maybe you should start a new thread titled "Nothing will ever work" - this thread is about something else.


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## viridis (Apr 21, 2011)

No worries, I was confused. I assumed that because you are such a strong believer in the idea, that you would been involved in this current proposal.

Why did the GTP proposal you tried 5 years ago never take off?

If you know no more than I do, and it is not enough to form an opinion, than why have you expressed such strong thoughts in the thread already?

Everyone is entitled to form their opinions when ever they feel fit to. It makes me laugh when you try and form opinions for others like you do so often. This forum is for the general public to state what ever THEY feel on an idea. As long as it does not breach any of the site rules, members can form opinions on things when ever they like, not when you feel there is enough evidence for someone to make an opinion. Are you the APS opinion moderator 

So if you have nothing to say in regards to the Victorian 'breeders register' than perhaps the various questions I asked in my above post could be answered by one of the Victorian keepers working with the register. Perhaps they may be able to help me revise my opinions on the idea????????????????


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## Waterrat (Apr 21, 2011)

Nick, I am going to simply leave this dialog. You can wonder why as much as you like, others will know. If you want to attack me on a personal level - knock on my door.


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## ToadCountry (Apr 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> As you said, lets not jump the gut, no one has got any information so far to form an opinion.
> Microchipping is DEFINITELY not on! Subcutaneous pit tagging is useless, the tag can be easily removed, that's apart from the aesthetics, and internal microchipping requires surgery under LA - who would pay for it?



I was actually jumping around in my head LOL!.....in regards to microchipping, as I see it as the only real form of certification in the broader sense, as in, animals must be microchipped to leave or enter the country - unless they are going out to Indonesia, or South Africa (off the top of my head)....and in my experience it is as easy as Number=Animal. 
So in this "theme" of things, I would regard microchipping as the end result of an established set of definitive protocols to certify a snake as being bona fide. 

LA stings like a bitch.....if I was a breeder at your level - it would be my prerogative to ask for a GA for any snake of mine to be done, as IMO a quick GA would and should, be part of the certification protocol. 

It's common practice for us to remove the microchip from a zoo-owned snake that has passed away when it is autopsied, and for the vet to write a report on that particular animal - and part of that report is to certify that the snake as described matches the microchip.
Quite an interesting process. 
So if you follow my thoughts - this takes the initial breeder certification process to another level.

The trouble with putting out such a banquet in front of me with regard to an actual register, careful and true documentation, DNA testing, microchipping (?) and breeder certification is that in real terms......I've already jumped the gun.  

And on another note - what you are doing by fleshing things out with regard to your original question, is both eccentric, and highly intelligent. I just hope that I don't get too fatigued by the end result.



viridis said:


> Please use your boggling mind and explain how it will work _*in detail*_ Michael. You have been mentioning this idea ever since you joined the forum back when your name was 'Craftsman'. This was at least 3 years ago now so why have you not taken it further and got something off the ground? I understand that setting something up like this would take time but I assumed that if it was going to be implemented, it would taken off by now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



VERY good fodder for setting up a system that should have NO loopholes.
And you should be turning your energy into something more than suggesting that only wild-caught animals are bona fide, as this process in and of itself is open to debate when you consider the can of worms that would open up should any Tom, Dick or Harry be able to collect other than the well-known people you mentioned??
And I totally agree with you as to photographic evidence - it should only be used as a last resort - which is why it would be good to have plenty of alternatives. Have you any?? 



longqi said:


> Now heres a thought
> If we cross a jag with a merino we can get a wooly snake with ears whose shed skin is worth good money
> Simply use ear tags then
> problem solved



Just go right out there......and lets talk about the NLIS ear tag system that was introduced for the sale and breeding of cattle here in Australia. The system is totally able to be worked around. 
Did you know that a purebred Angus cow can have a calf that resembles a Brangus?? True !! 
As long as the paperwork is filled out correctly by the farmer (breeder) that calf will be around the same dressed weight,exhibit the same carcass composition, fibre characteristics and metabolic enzyme activities as a pure bred Angus. 

So, your suggestion about crossing jags with merinos wouldn't work, as ear tags have proven themselves to be only as good as the ears they are hanging from, and some of the progeny might not have ears.  

There's my thought. 
Other than being someone who has been around in herps for a long time, and having daily access to more freaky out-crosses than us, where do you see loopholes cropping up, or being taken advantage of if a (purely voluntary I'm thinking atm) system was put in place here? 
Do you think - as I am starting to, that the real value in snakes will be their certifiable heritage?


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## longqi (Apr 22, 2011)

Then we have the official report from the 'Inventor' of Jags in Norway 
This report was not made until a long time after jags had arrived in the USA and more crossing had been done
But he totally denies that his original jags had anything strange in them
He states that his were a mcdoweli and an Australian coastal and appears to be able to back that up
My main thought about this pairing is that why havnt we seen a similar result from the same pairings done over here

That is why I still question the actual pairing that made these beautiful but quite troubled reptiles
Lots of initial reports included various South American species and the Irian Jayas were not reported as being included until 1998 as far as I can find out now through google
That in itself is interesting because I can find no references to Neurological problems before 2003
So maybe the original jags were fine???
But if the original Jags were from purely Australian stock and were fine; why are Australian Bred Jags showing problems already??

Or is that one of those questions that should never be asked??


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## fugawi (Apr 22, 2011)

As far as tagging.....What about a blue light ink tattoo in the cloaca scale, just putting it out there, don't bag me for it. (slightly off topic I know)


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## Morelia4life (Apr 22, 2011)

I have read that the original jags came from a clutch of normal looking Coastals. I don't know what started the whole Neurological issues in jags, but I don't see why it would be caused from IJ? I don't know of any IJ that display neuro issues. I still think that all jags have the neuro gene in them but it is dormant and only when the jag is stressed out from certain factors they become neuro. What do you guys think about that? I think the same neuro gene is responsible for killing Leucistic carpets when they are born. Just my thoughts.


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## kupper (Apr 22, 2011)

ToadCountry said:


> I was actually jumping around in my head LOL!.....in regards to microchipping, as I see it as the only real form of certification in the broader sense, as in, animals must be microchipped to leave or enter the country - unless they are going out to Indonesia, or South Africa (off the top of my head)....and in my experience it is as easy as Number=Animal.
> So in this "theme" of things, I would regard microchipping as the end result of an established set of definitive protocols to certify a snake as being bona fide.
> 
> LA stings like a bitch.....if I was a breeder at your level - it would be my prerogative to ask for a GA for any snake of mine to be done, as IMO a quick GA would and should, be part of the certification protocol.
> ...


 
all makes sense and valid argument , although it hurt my head considerably to read it and comprehend :lol:

thanks for a well thought out post


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## viridis (Apr 22, 2011)

ToadCountry said:


> LA stings like a bitch.....if I was a breeder at your level - it would be my prerogative to ask for a GA for any snake of mine to be done, as IMO a quick GA would and should, be part of the certification protocol.
> 
> Do you think - as I am starting to, that the real value in snakes will be their certifiable heritage?


 


ToadCountry said:


> VERY good fodder for setting up a system that should have NO loopholes.
> And you should be turning your energy into something more than suggesting that only wild-caught animals are bona fide, as this process in and of itself is open to debate when you consider the can of worms that would open up should any Tom, Dick or Harry be able to collect other than the well-known people you mentioned??
> And I totally agree with you as to photographic evidence - it should only be used as a last resort - which is why it would be good to have plenty of alternatives. Have you any??
> 
> ...


 
Good input Toad Country,

I don't feel that putting a snake under G.A is a suitable outcome. Surely there could be negative aspects of this if say using a hatchling Chondro, the stress on the animal could be enough to turn the animal off it's food ect. Doing this procedure on an older animal once it was say 12 months old, leaves loop holes in the system. i.e, the breeder has to holdback any hatchlings the are going to registered until they are old enough to safely go through the procedure. Another example where it may not work is that if the breeder was to sell the hatchlings and the buyer has to take it to get micro chipped at 6 months of age ect, the proof is lost.

I am using Green Pythons as an example as they change their colour, patterns and markings as they mature so either DNA or micro chipping is the only way that I can see it beeing 90 + % fool proof. If you want to deem a snake registered, surely the outlay of proceedures involved to make a positve I.D, would be worth more than the snake. 

There were some Native Chondros advertised on Herp Trader a few months ago. These animals were stunning, feeding well and the parents displayed spectacular full white dorsal stripes as good as any wild Chondro that I have seen in Iron Range. It was obvious that these were as close to Native Chondro's in appearance as you could get without going out and illegally catching them in person. I was so tempted to buy a few however I did not know the seller personally so I did not proceed.

What I am saying is that even if though I was 99% sure that these snakes were pure Australian Natives and the best looking parents advertised for a long time, I could not be certain of the heritage of the animals so I passed it up. If I was to buy more Native Chondros in the future, I would only buy from someone that I personally know and could see that they had the full dorsal stripe. I guess that in this instance, the descision to buy native Aussie Chondros is all about the colour!

If I want a Jungle, I want a fluro yellow animal, if I wanted a Native Chondro, than I wan't a full unbroken white dorsal stripe, as this is what sets them apart from the others. I have had countless Chondros through my hands over the last 6 years and IMO a full white dorsal striped animal is worth more to me personally than any Mite Phase ect. If I wanted to buy natives, I would not buy them unless they had unbroken white stripes as that is what makes them special.


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## Waterrat (Apr 22, 2011)

"And on another note - what you are doing by fleshing things out with regard to your original question, is both eccentric, and highly intelligent. I just hope that I don't get too fatigued by the end result."

Just who are you ToadCountry? Some kind of reptile keeper's Police?


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## viridis (Apr 22, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Nick, I am going to simply leave this dialog. You can wonder why as much as you like, others will know.




What happened in the last 12 hours


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## Waterrat (Apr 22, 2011)

In the last 12 hours some people screwed this thread. Wana talk about TIP tagging, register, etc, go to the new thread - I opened one for you.
If anyone wants to attack me on a personal level - knock on my front door.


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## Fantazmic (Apr 22, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Assessing the looks, handling, "personality", whatever, ....... that's all good if you're buying a reptile form a local breeder (and he/she lets you to go all over the animal). What should people look for or how should they go about selecting a snake say from Pilbara Pythons or from me?


 
Recently I bought a Snake from a breeder in Qld. I based my choice on discussion about his breeding practice.....the way he spoke to me let me know the sort of person he was. I also looked at the postings he has put on the forum which also gave me an idea of who he was, next was photographs of the snakes he thought would be suitable and lastly.......I just had to trust him. Incidently I am happy with the snakes I received which confirmed that I was either lucky or had made a good decision to trust the person i did. Incidently I would buy a green tree python from you Michael and again this is because you have a high profile on the forum and I know the ethics you stand for (however whether you would sell me one remains to be seen !!). Trouble is I dont trust myself to be able to look after one yet !!!!!

Ive just realised something...I picked my snake on colour I had nothing else to go on....and if memory served me right I didnt even ask about temperament because the snakes were hatchies and I know that baby snakes are snappy so it was pointless asking whether they were calm or not.

and what was my excitement about....the unusual markings of the female...the potential to buy her brother so i could do a line breeding if I ever do decide to have a clutch in the future....eeeeek...how superficial am I lol


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## MD-Mummy (Apr 24, 2011)

I admit Im not really into the Darwins... yet my hubby is, hence why he has 2!!! I love my Murray yet she was chosen because I liked her markings. So to a degree ours were chosen on looks however I think that while some cross bred animals are fine (we have a x bred dog) in any animal/reptile u have to take into consideration the health and personality issues. My Murray, who is 3 and a half months old, has actually displayed what i have been told is Proserpine activity, as she is sooo bloody nosey and curious!! But i know 150% that she is a pure Murray, just a very curious one!!! I would not have a cross bred snake personally simply for the fact u can never guarantee behavioural issues with a pure snake, a cross bred one is going to be harder. I mean if, for arguments sake, my murray is snappy I know its because 1 she is due to shed or 2 she is hungry, yet if she was a cross there is another whole list of things it could be and I believe I would be forever guessing. I like the idea of knowing what to expect (in most cases) with my snake. But this is simply MY personal opinion. (E)


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## Fantazmic (Apr 25, 2011)

the same could be said for your cross bred dog......because you get traits from both lines.....it has been crossed with...thats assuming it is a first generation cross from pure bred lines....if it has a mixed pedigree there is nothing you can predict from you dog...other than that you can trust it and know it from past experience...so saying that the dogs behaviour is predictable even though it is crossed doesnt make sense.


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## serpenttongue (May 16, 2011)

sara_sabian said:


> a hybrid holds little value for me. It's probably my own prejudice but they seem so artificial, less real if that makes sense.



Like an imitation of the real thing!



-Matt- said:


> What really gets to me is that so many people in this hobby have no interest in getting out and seeing these animals (that they claim to have such an interest in) in their natural environment. They would much prefer to keep them in a melamine box in their house, yet have no idea what their natural environment looks like or how they behave in the wild. They only know what they have seen in a shop or read on an internet forum. I believe if you really have a genuine interest in our native reptiles then the ultimate feeling is to get out and appreciate them for yourself, in the wild. Not herping at a pet shop.


 
True. It certainly separates the men from the boys. A true herper will get off his butt and go out bush whenever he can, even knowing he may not come across a thing all day.


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