# Do you know your GTP localities?



## DanN (Jun 24, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I have some spare time on my hands so I thought I'd run a little experiment.

Here are six photos of green pythons. Can you correctly identify their locality and provide a justification? Who cares if you think you might be wrong - have a go, it's just for fun.

No clues sorry.. except that none of them are crosses etc.


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 24, 2012)

I shouldn't expose my lack of knowledge (and justification) but what the hell.

1/ Aru / Yapen
2/ Sorong / Lereh
3/ Lereh / Sorong
4/ Could be anythin - Southern PNG
5/ Qld
6/ ?? Aru ?


----------



## PigFeet (Jun 24, 2012)

merauke and merauke x sorongs maybe


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 24, 2012)

PigFeet said:


> merauke and merauke x sorongs maybe



read the clues.

Dan, are they from well known, typical localities or some dark corners of world?


----------



## DanN (Jun 24, 2012)

Sorry, to avoid any confusion, they are from very broad localities. I.e., not specifics like Yapen (southern New Guinea, Australia, etc). I also would be keen to hear any justification for answers


----------



## Jeffa (Jun 24, 2012)

1. Wamena (guess) Possible Biak around head
2.Sarong (Blue triangles and colouring)
3.Wamena(young colouring)
4.Aru (guess, cannot see belly)
5.Aussie (head shape and colour)
6.Aru Blue spots
Either way good post and please tell us why what their locale is and the difference between each and variance that may occur?


----------



## Flaviruthless (Jun 24, 2012)

Aru, Merauke, Wamena, Jayapura (?), Australia, Aru.....


----------



## Jeffa (Jun 24, 2012)

DanN said:


> Sorry, to avoid any confusion, they are from very broad localities. I.e., not specifics like Yapen (southern New Guinea, Australia, etc). I also would be keen to hear any justification for answers



So you want hybidid justification mutts?


----------



## DanN (Jun 24, 2012)

Hi Jeffa. They are all wild animals. I.e., no inter-bred localities/hybrids. I will provide the answers tomorrow night.


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 24, 2012)

No.5 - Cape York - yellow scales amongst white ones, head shape and typical remains of brown juvenile markings turned blue.
The rest ???


----------



## Jeffa (Jun 24, 2012)

Not specifics like Aussies? ***? How about
1.Irian jaya
2.Irian jaya
3.Irian jaya
4.Irian jaya
5.Irian jaya
6.Irian Jaya

Reason I do not know what the broadness of localities entails?
No Aussies, no southern PnG? 
Chondro Virides? What do I win?


----------



## DanN (Jun 24, 2012)

Sorry for the confusion Jeffa - that was my bad English! What I meant was there are no very specific local animals like Yapens - the snakes pictured are from broad locals like southern New Guinea and Australia.


----------



## Jeffa (Jun 24, 2012)

2,3 and 4 Aussies. the rest png?
Okay?


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 24, 2012)

Dan, I think I know what you're getting at - specific morphological characters that differentiate GTPs from different localities. I am not sure what kind of answers are you expecting other than north / south PNG, Indo, CY even that would be pretty impossible. Me think LOL
When you ask for "localities", on what scale?


----------



## DanN (Jun 24, 2012)

Hi Michael,

I am not looking for any answer in particular. Neither do I expect people to know micro-localities  I am interested to see peoples views on the "localities" of the individuals pictured based upon the known stereotypes for green pythons. This includes the typical locals like Merauke, Sorong, Lereh, Jayapura, Wamena, Biak, Aru, Aussie, etc that appear in books by Maxwell and Kivit and Wiseman. 

It's really just for fun and to see some cool critters


----------



## Owzi (Jun 24, 2012)

I'll have a go-

1- Aru island - higher white scattered scales over its green. 

2- Northern Irian Jaya - this one is very tough though! Usually associate higher blue with the Northern types (Sorong, Jayapura) but its usually a stronger vertebral marking not just blue bars. And theres plenty of white there too (which makes me think Southern)

3- Highlands/Central mainland of West Papua/PNG - Looks like blue vertibral markings but not as bold as the Sorong types. However the green seems limey(er) than a typical Wamena type

4- Southern PNG - Merauke. White vertebral line but its green is slightly darker than Aussie types (could well be Aussie though)

5- Aussie - white vertebral line, lime green. Young animal still showing lots of blue.

6- Southern PNG - Again higher white vertebral markings but a darker green

Theres plenty of variation in these critters that I could be way off!!
Thanks for sharing Dan, look forward to the answers.

Andrew


----------



## Flaviruthless (Jun 24, 2012)

I classed two as 'Aru' types due to the clustering of white scales along the dorsal line - as opposed to the typical singular white scale patterns that appear in other locales (e.g. Aussies are known for their white 'stripe' type marking). I classed the 'Wamena' as such due to the dark(ish) patterning down the spine...

I'm no expert, these were my guesses. They are beautiful animals regardless of heritage.


----------



## DanN (Jun 25, 2012)

Thanks for all your answers. There are actually only two localities represented here - Australia and southern New Guinea ("Merauke"). Any guesses which is which?


----------



## Albino93 (Jun 25, 2012)

DanN said:


> Thanks for all your answers. There are actually only two localities represented here - Australia and southern New Guinea ("Merauke"). Any guesses which is which?



idk much about GTP's but im gonna guess that pic 3 and 5 are aussie and the rest are merauke  im going off the colour differences lol i really have no idea


----------



## PigFeet (Jun 25, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> read the clues.
> 
> Dan, are they from well known, typical localities or some dark corners of world?



oops.
how about no1 & no5 the merauke the others aussie?


----------



## DanN (Jun 25, 2012)

Good guess Albino. The animals in pictures 3 and 5 are Australians, while the others are "Meraukes"... but the difference is not in the colour.

None of the points raised in the post can be used to tell these locals apart. In fact, these two populations are virtually impossible to tell apart (they do differ in head shape, however, this is only relative to the overall size of the snake and therefore not a good diagnostic). 

I thought this post may be of interest to show the kind of variation that can occur within populations, but also to show that this same variation can encompass traits thought to be associated with other "localities".

Cheers,
Dan


----------



## Albino93 (Jun 25, 2012)

wow i surprised myself  i had no idea that 2 different localities could look so much alike. just a question how many different localities are GTP's native/local to?


----------



## Bushman (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks for creating such an interesting topic Dan. It demonstrates that the generally accepted criteria used to distinguish between the various forms of GTP are far from reliable indicators.

The only one that I was certain about was #5, which is undoubtedly an Australian specimen, as it looks just like mine.
I was surprised that #3 is an Australian specimen, as it looks a bit different from more "typical" Aussies. Whilst I've seen and bred pure Aussies myself that have a one scale wide _shadow_ pinstripe that overlays the juvenile _ghost_ stripe in some specimens, I haven't seen what appears to be adjacent sooty smudging like that shown in #3. I suspect that this individual is from a different locality to the more commonly seen Iron Range animals. Whether it is or isn't, it's apparent that we need to redefine or at least broaden our description of what constitutes not only typical Australian specimens but also the various exotic "types" as described in literature.

Was the Aussie in pic#3 a yearling or sub-adult?


----------



## DanN (Jun 27, 2012)

Hi Patrick,

Yep, it's interesting stuff. The individual in picture 3 is a large animal. Small specimens don't display the black along the stripe. This is common to all the southern localities, but I have only seen it in animals that are presumably very old - nothing special really - and certainly not diagnostic... although some folk have suggested that they are a different species..


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 27, 2012)

Hi Dan,

I had this kind of black dotting in quite a few juveniles, it appears straight after OCC and disappears withing the following year. Is it the same stripe as in your picture (bit too small to see properly)?


----------



## Bushman (Jun 27, 2012)

DanN said:


> Hi Patrick,
> 
> Yep, it's interesting stuff. The individual in picture 3 is a large animal. Small specimens don't display the black along the stripe. This is common to all the southern localities, but I have only seen it in animals that are presumably very old - nothing special really - and certainly not diagnostic... although some folk have suggested that they are a different species..


Hi Dan. I'm surprised that the specimen is of adult size, as I've only ever seen it on some juveniles after ontogenetic colour change like the one shown above by Michael. This dark pigment seems to precisely overlay the _ghost_ stripe that exists on some native neonates and juveniles, as mentioned earlier. 
It's very interesting indeed that this yearling 'shadow stripe' seems to reappear in old age in some native Australian and perhaps also some southern clade specimens.


----------



## DanN (Jun 27, 2012)

Hi Patrick/Michael,

To be honest I have never seen that on a wild animal (or maybe I just never noticed). But that is different from the animal in photo 3. It is not the shadow stripe reappearing, but rather a smudging of the white vertebral stripe in very large individuals.

I don't know the significance of the colouration in Michael's picture.


----------



## Owzi (Jun 27, 2012)

None of the points raised can be used to tell the difference between Aussies or Southern PNG animals. I truly thought it was possible from the shade of green on the animals to a degree. Aussies always seem to be more of a lime green to me, but I've never seen the animals in the wild.
I reckon we all did pretty well with the pics provided!

Regarding the black vertebral markings, Dan have you seen animals from Lake Kutubu? Supposedly they look the same as Merauke type animals but the white vertebral stripe slowly fades to a all black stripe with age.


----------



## DanN (Jun 27, 2012)

Hi Owzi,

I think you all did very well. Northern animals seem to be a darker shade than those from the south (including Australia). But.. there is such variation wrt to the shade dependent on size, condition, etc that I certainly wouldn't use it as a diagnostic myself.

I haven't been to the lake itself, but I've been close, and also have genetic material from there. I've never seen animals in the wild like the ones your talking about. Those individuals are very large and very old and there is nothing to suggest that the condition isn't just an exaggeration of the black on the animal in the first post. 

There is also no reason to believe that they are a new species as many people suggest...


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 27, 2012)

This will take some photographic effort, but I will document tomorrow (or sometimes in time ....) that older/old captive bred native GTPs loose their vertebral stripe almost completely with age.


----------



## Colin (Jun 29, 2012)

what about these?


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 29, 2012)

The one of the right is from Canary Islands, the one on left from moon. Have I got it right?


----------



## eipper (Jun 29, 2012)

Colin are they shopped? If not that whitish one is stunning


----------



## Greenmad (Jun 29, 2012)

Both canarys gtps. The white one is a hormonal female and the yellow is her stud.


----------



## DanN (Jun 29, 2012)

Dunno, but I'd bet they've both got Biak in them somewhere.


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 29, 2012)

Dan, can you look up post #25 and comment? Is the black line similar to what you described as being intrinsic to old animals?

cheers
M


----------



## DanN (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi Michael, I answered in post #27. The two stripes are different. I have never seen the stripe like on your animal before. The black on the older specimens is not that common, but I've seen it a few times - they are all very big snakes (for GTPs). It looks like an overall darkening of the scales along the anterior dorsal surface - usually the back end of the snake is still good. 

Here's another...


----------



## eipper (Jun 29, 2012)

Thanks for explanation greenmad 

Cheers
scott


----------



## Waterrat (Jun 29, 2012)

DanN said:


> View attachment 257498
> Hi Michael, I answered in post #27. The two stripes are different. I have never seen the stripe like on your animal before. The black on the older specimens is not that common, but I've seen it a few times - they are all very big snakes (for GTPs). It looks like an overall darkening of the scales along the anterior dorsal surface - usually the back end of the snake is still good.
> 
> Here's another...



Sorry Dan, I must have gone to sleep (post #27).
I had about 5 or 6 juveniles like that over the years, always hoping the black dotting would stay forever but ..... LOL
There is another photo by Dickyknee on one of my animals somewhere in the "show us your greens" thread.

Couple more - before and after.


----------



## Poggle (Jun 29, 2012)

Colin said:


> what about these?




soon to be in my lounge room??


----------



## Colin (Jul 2, 2012)

eipper said:


> Colin are they shopped? If not that whitish one is stunning



not my pic or gtp's but Im sure the pic is definitely not shopped scott.




Greenmad said:


> Both canarys gtps. The white one is a hormonal female and the yellow is her stud.



your probably right ryan, you'd know more about gtp's than myself. It was a pic I saw posted on Facebook and initially thought that the white/blue one could have been descendants of the greg schroeder "snow cone" line that's shown on rico walder's website.


----------



## Owzi (Jul 6, 2012)

Colin said:


> what about these?





Waterrat said:


> The one of the right is from Canary Islands, the one on left from moon. Have I got it right?





Greenmad said:


> Both canarys gtps. The white one is a hormonal female and the yellow is her stud.



I disagree, I reckon these guys are from the Lemon Tree line in the states. Check Maxwells book, page 94, I think they're even the same animals pictured there

Lemon Tree pic credited to Greg Schroeder, so I reckon your right Colin


----------



## Bushman (Jul 7, 2012)

I agree that the predominantly white dam and high yellow specimens posted by Colin are almost certainly the same individuals depicted on Pg.94 of Maxwell's book. They are 'Lemon Tree' bloodline, which are designer morphs, so they are not locality pure. According to Maxwell, the original founder male of this line was bred by Doug Price "from clutches produced by breeding some wild caught adults that were reported to be PNG in origin." 
These chondros are selectively bred colour morphs and as such cannot be considered locality GTP.

Can anyone guess the locality type of these wild specimens?


----------



## yommy (Jul 7, 2012)

I pluck and say pure aussies???


----------



## Waterrat (Jul 7, 2012)

No way. Those blue triangles are not on Aussies. Also the tip of the tail in the 3rd pic. Southern PNG.


----------



## DanN (Jul 7, 2012)

Bushman said:


> Can anyone guess the locality type of these wild specimens?



Kamiali, PNG


----------



## Waterrat (Jul 7, 2012)

LOL Dan, did you supply the shots?


----------



## DanN (Jul 7, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> LOL Dan, did you supply the shots?



Nope...


----------



## Bushman (Jul 8, 2012)

DanN said:


> Kamiali, PNG


Spot on Dan! I didn't think that anyone would even guess the region, let alone the actual village! I'm very impressed. 8)
Most people would understandably place them in the vicinity of Merauke but they were found over 700 km from Merauke. The strong white vertebral stripe looks similar to Aussies, so not a bad guess Yommy; however, as Michael rightly points out, the strength and persistence of blue dorsal patches doesn't usually persist into adulthood in Aussies. 
According to the generally well accepted criteria, as described in most texts, these would fit best into the Merauke type. I would have guessed Merauke or southern PNG like you Michael, if I hadn't already known where these specimens were found. 
Not only were these animals a long way from Merauke, but they were found on the northern side of the main dividing range, which is thought to effectively separate the northern and southern clades.


----------



## Pythonlovers (Jul 8, 2012)

what ones can you own in australia? just curious.


----------



## PrecisionPythons (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi all

Whilst we're on the topic, what are ur thoughts on these two.

Thank you


----------



## Flaviruthless (Jul 9, 2012)

Photo isn't working PrecisionPythons...


----------



## PrecisionPythons (Jul 9, 2012)

pictures are up
what are your thoughts of locality?


----------



## Bushman (Jul 10, 2012)

Are they locality pure?


----------



## PrecisionPythons (Jul 10, 2012)

Not sure, was just after thoughts/opinions on what they may be ?


----------



## Waterrat (Jul 10, 2012)

Kalimantan (or one of the many Indonesian snake farms). :shock:


----------



## Mr.James (Jul 10, 2012)

They look like an Aru varient.


----------



## PrecisionPythons (Jul 10, 2012)

Hmm i know it's hard to tell off a photo, but they look identical to the merauke photos in Greg maxwells book "the more complete chondro" although the only difference is that they do not have the white scales all in a row down their back. Maxwells book explains that within the merauke race, breeding over time the some pythons of merauke race have had less and less scales down their back. So I am lead to believe they are of merauke race or somewhere close to that but once again am interested on what everyone else thinks?


----------



## DanN (Jul 10, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Kalimantan (or one of the many Indonesian snake farms). :shock:



There are no green pythons farms in Kalimantan - despite Longqi's assertions 

The two snakes have southern blood in them (i.e., Merauke, Aru or AU), but that doesn't mean they're not crossed with something northern. PrecisionPythons quite rightly points out that they have lost their white scales - which occurs in all "locals", and these particular animals certainly look like they're multiple generation captive-bred.


----------



## PrecisionPythons (Jul 10, 2012)

Thx all for input  I guess we will never know exactly their locality. 
Green tree pythons it is


----------



## Waterrat (Jul 11, 2012)

DanN said:


> There are no green pythons farms in Kalimantan - despite Longqi's assertions



It was a joke, I try to make it more obvious next time.


----------



## longqi (Jul 12, 2012)

DanN said:


> There are no green pythons farms in Kalimantan - despite Longqi's assertions
> 
> The two snakes have southern blood in them (i.e., Merauke, Aru or AU), but that doesn't mean they're not crossed with something northern. PrecisionPythons quite rightly points out that they have lost their white scales - which occurs in all "locals", and these particular animals certainly look like they're multiple generation captive-bred.




As far as I know there are still 2 places in Kalimantan have chondros and they are both export 'farms'

One is run by Europeans with Indonesian managers
Other is solely Indonesian
Both regularly supply bushmaster exports based in Sukmabumi near Bogor/Jakarta
Both have extensive contacts in both Europe and Asia for supplying 'farmed' chondros

'farmed' is in brackets because very few 'farms' actually produce cb chondros
Most come straight from Papua and are renamed as captive bred so they can be legally exported


----------



## Waterrat (Jul 12, 2012)

Longqi,

In my post I referred to a snake farm in Kalimantan, not to the geographical distribution of GTPs. Dan's comment was that there is no green pythons farm in Kalimantan.


----------



## longqi (Jul 12, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Longqi,
> 
> In my post I referred to a snake farm in Kalimantan, not to the geographical distribution of GTPs. Dan's comment was that there is no green pythons farm in Kalimantan.



Yes I noticed that now and corrected my reply


----------



## DanN (Jul 12, 2012)

Hi Longqi. There are no chondro "farms" in Kalimantan. There may be individuals privately breeding chondros and selling them to other farms, but nothing registered with PHKA to export themselves (unless it's very recent). As you say, there is little point because of the cost of raising captive stock vs. the cost and ease of laundering wild-caught.


----------



## onimocnhoj (Aug 12, 2012)

Thought I'd give this thread a little push along..

Two wild specimens. From where..? 
Australia? International? One of each...??


----------



## Bushman (Aug 12, 2012)

Wow! that second specimen coiled up on the ground is a stunner! The large area of bright blue is quite remarkable!
I reckon that it could be an Aussie (he hopes ). Thanks for posting it up.
The first pic is a bit too small (for my eyesight) to call but it looks similar to Dan's Aussie native posted earlier in this thread. 
Any chance of a seeing a bigger version?


----------



## onimocnhoj (Aug 12, 2012)

You are correct Patrick, they are both Australians. 

I am fairly hopeless with uploading pictures, so I'm not sure I can help you with a larger image. The first one actually has a high percentage of blue as well, but not quite as much as Smurfet in the second shot.

Cheers for the follow up.


----------



## DanN (Aug 12, 2012)

onimocnhoj said:


> Thought I'd give this thread a little push along..
> 
> Two wild specimens. From where..?
> Australia? International? One of each...??



McIlwraith or Mt Carter animals perhaps?


----------



## Bushman (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks John. With Aussies as stunning as that, who needs exotics! 
No worries about the larger version.


----------

