# Bobtail Rottweilers



## ally_pup (Nov 18, 2007)

Hi all,
I was just searching the net for a female rotty to put with my boy. My partner loves them with no tails and too my suprise I just discovered you can get them with bobtails that is naturally in the genes. After telling him he cant wait to get one but I can only find one breeder in Aus. who breeds them. Have searched petlink and spend a couple of hours searching adds etc and havent found much. Does anyone happen to know down the grapevine were we can get one. Thought it was worth a shot.


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## Midol (Nov 18, 2007)

Are you registered?

Have you health tested (genetic)?

Are you prepared to take back puppies at ANY stage in their life if something happens?

Do you have an understanding of canine genetics?

Are you aware that if you breed responsibly you will not make a profit?

Is your rottie a good example of the breed? How do you know?

Is it a main register dog? 

What is your breeding prefix?



For some reason I have a sneaky suspicion you are going to backyard breed... Otherwise you'd already know the answer to your question.

http://www.ankc.org.au/home/breeds_details.asp?bid=173


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## geckodan (Nov 18, 2007)

Probably better to avoid natural bobtails as they often have or carry genetics for other spinal disorders as well (naturally missing your tail is after all a spinal disorder)


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## BlindSnake (Nov 18, 2007)

bob tails are from a pure bred boxer or rottie that has been crossed with a corgie.then that gene is put back in the pure breed for a few generations..I dont know why you would put that link to that video when all the question was where can you get bobtails in Australia..


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## Midol (Nov 19, 2007)

BlindSnake, bobtails aren't that simple.

You need to get the % of genetic material from the rottie down to somewhere near 0.001% (from memory) which usually takes 6 generations of breeding then you must apply to the ANKC to have them recognized as purebred rotties so if you've done anything wrong in this time you'll have wasted your time.


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## mertle (Nov 19, 2007)

Try to get your hubby to love one with a natural tail, after all dogs are supposed to have a tail to wag!


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## geckodan (Nov 19, 2007)

BlindSnake said:


> bob tails are from a pure bred boxer or rottie that has been crossed with a corgie.then that gene is put back in the pure breed for a few generations..I dont know why you would put that link to that video when all the question was where can you get bobtails in Australia..



Quite tricky I would think considering that the average corgi is born with a tail just as big as a rotti tail. Idiot!!!


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## ally_pup (Nov 19, 2007)

Are you registered? 
No I am not registered as of yet but there is no law say you have to be registered to buy a purebred dog from a registered breeder. Second I do not see the point in becoming a registered breeder until your dogs are ready to breed. My boy is only 3 months and has a fair while to go. Once I got a female and they were mature enough to breed I was planning on becoming registered as I do not believe in selling p'bred animals without papers. 

Have you health tested (genetic)?
My pup was brought from registered breeder so yes I have all the paperwork from them. Including parents hip / elbow scores etc.

Are you prepared to take back puppies at ANY stage in their life if something happens?
I am aware of what is involved in breeding Rottweilers through ANKC and have done ample research. If I wasnt willing I wouldnt be considering breeding. 

Are you aware that if you breed responsibly you will not make a profit?
Who cares? If you didnt make profit out of breeding reptiles would you stop doing it? Dont think so you do it for the love of the animal.

Is your rottie a good example of the breed? How do you know?
I was provided with ancestory of my boy dating back 4 generations so yes I believe he is a good example of the breed. 

NOT THAT I SHOULD NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF BUT MAKING ASSUPTIONS IS A PATHETIC THING TO DO. BEFORE PEOPLE START MAKING RUDE AND UNCALLED FOR THREADS MAYBE THEY SHOULD THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING. WHILE AT UNI I VOLUNTEER PART TIME AT THE SPCA HERE AND ALSO AM A CARER FOR AWRS SO I AM NOT INTERESTED IN PEOPLE ON HERE THINKING THEY KNOW ALL. HAVE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL ROTTWEILER BREEDERS AND MOST HAVE TOLD ME BOBTAILS ARE RARE TO FIND AND WORD OF MOUTH MAY BE THE ONLY WAY I FIND ONE. SIMPLE QUESTION!!


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 19, 2007)

This explains the disorder but is very wordy.
Tell your hubby your getting a long tailed rotti..

From Rat Tales/©2000RTCA Pam Mills 

'Natural bobbed tails (a natural shortening of the coccyx or tail bone) occurs in several species and is seen in many different breeds of dogs, with our Rat Terriers being one. It is very important to keep track of this natural occurance because the gene that produces bobbed tails has hidden consequences. 

The gene that causes brachury generally produces no obvious effects other than the shortened tail, when seen as a single recessive gene in the heterozygous (Tt/tt) condition. But when this gene for bobtails (brachury) appears in it's dominant homozygous (Tt) form, it then becomes a lethal! (It works like the "Dominant W" or lethal white gene in homozygous individuals, while it's recessive in heterozygous ones.) Since any homozygous (Tt) individual usually dies without reproducing, it is only a concern when (inter)breeding 2 heterozygotes --individuals whose parents were bobtailed themselves, that this information should definitely be considered when selecting breeding pairs, as it affects and can modify the progeny ratios depending on the actual genotype of the crosses being made and in which these T/T genotypes can be produced. 

Example of inheritance: A long-tailed female is bred to a long-tailed male, producing 12 long-tailed puppies. A long-tailed female is bred to a bob-tailed male, producing 12 puppies--1/2 with long tails,1/2 with short tails. A bob-tailed female bred to a bob-tailed male, producing 9 puppies--6 with bob-tails & 3 with long tails. This example shows a phenotypical ratio of 2:1 found in the viable offspring of the genotype T/+ versus the normal tailed +/+ individual without known ancestors with this trait. Ordinarily, a cross between 2 bob-tailed individuals is expected to produce a 1:2:1 genotypic ratio in the progeny, with their phenotypical ratios being either 3:1 with complete dominance or 1:2:1 with intermediate or incomplete dominance. 

Both long-tails and bob-tails will apppear in a litter. Phenotypically (or physically) you can't identify a bobtail's specific gene type, but "the proof" may be in breeding. Interbreeding of T/t and t/t genotypes, or a pair of bob-tailed (t/t) genotypes are expected to produce normal progeny ratios of 3:1, often with a normal sized litter in which both T/t and/or t/t bobtailed genotypes are produced. While a pair of T/t genotypes produces a litter with an expected 2:1 progeny ratio, but with a markedly decreased number of offspring. These heterozygous recessive individuals actually produce true 1:2:1 progeny ratios, and both (t/t) and (T/t) bobtailed genotypes are viably produced, but approximately 1/4 of the offspring are homozygous lethal (T/T) gene types. Since most individuals that are homozygous (T/T) for this gene die early during their embryonic development, they may not be detected. Thus a smaller than normal litter may indicate such a problem as breedings of these genotypes can often reduce the numbers of offspring by 25%. 

The homozygous (T/T) gene is also pleiotropic. Pleiotropic means a gene can also cause an array of complex and interrelated abnormal developmental changes in organ systems, and/or defects to both cartilage and structural developments. Most often thes (T/T) pleitropic effects are seen as: missing appendages (metacarpal/metatarsals) or situations where the ribs, vertebrae (including spina bifida), and/or sternum are defective and are associated with secondary notochord failures; resulting in the whole hindquarters being malformed and/or frequently causing failure of the bones to knit properly together, and which effectively can cause organs to be malformed. (Congenital hydrocephalus: ch allele- yet another pleiotropic heterozygous lethal; with anomalies of sinus hairs, open eyelids, shape ofpituary and ganglion Gasseri, intercerebral hemorrhages, ancephalus (missing cerebral with cranial flat bone failures) are seen when (ch) allele is present, and while often seen in conjunction with that of the T/T allele, are due to a different gene.) 

Simply by avoiding breedings of two naturally bobtailed individuals helps to eliminate the production of "tail-less" offspring, lethal T/T individuals and significantly reduces stillbirths and the other birth defects this gene can produce. But it has to start with you, the breeder. Since most Rat Terriers have their tails surgically docked, it's very important for the genetic soundness of our breed that you keep accurate records, or it may not be "known" if they are carriers of the gene responsible for this trait. As a breeder "you" are the one responsible for the breeding and "docking". We all have to record this trait; half tail, short tails, stumpy tails or no tail, by marking it "NB" on the registration papers and in pedigrees to know what you might be getting into. After all the "tell-tail-sign" might be missing. '

Used by persmission.


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## Midol (Nov 19, 2007)

ally_pup said:


> Are you registered?
> No I am not registered as of yet but there is no law say you have to be registered to buy a purebred dog from a registered breeder. Second I do not see the point in becoming a registered breeder until your dogs are ready to breed. My boy is only 3 months and has a fair while to go. Once I got a female and they were mature enough to breed I was planning on becoming registered as I do not believe in selling p'bred animals without papers.
> *Can't become registered after pups are born afaik, do it now as it takes a while for everything to be processed. There is no laws, but there are ethics.*
> 
> ...



Blindsnake: As I said, it isn't that simple. You can't just cross it then wait a few generations and then it's "pure" like some people believe. You also have to carry out intensive testing on both dogs which will set you back thousands.


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## woodzey (Nov 19, 2007)

i think that you should look towards a long tail rotti, do you really want to risk having a dog that has problems, and will live a life of discomfort, just because of the length of its tail?? 
there is nothing wrong with a long tailed dog, 
and in the end is the length of the dogs tail going to make it a better pet? 
i think not!!
the reason that you are having trouble finding a natural bobtail is because they are not in numbers and there is a reason for that.. they are not garenteed to be 100% healthy and that is because they are not a pure dog, you need to cross breed to get the bob tail, and un fortunatly cross breeding comes with problems and sometimes a bad attitude in the dog.
sorry, but i think that you need to forget about the bobtail and find your self a nice tail, with good parents who have a wonderful personality, and a healthy line of breeding


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## mummydolittle (Nov 20, 2007)

Hi ' Ally Pup' I am a registered breeder nd breed staffies. As you seem well informed and it looks like your heading down the right path. I wish you all the best of luck when it comes time to breed.
Just out of curiosity is your pup you have now a bob tail? If not the chances are when you breed a 'normal' rotti and bobtail rotti you wont get bobtails.

Best of luck.


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## Inkslinger (Nov 20, 2007)

Have had rottis in the past and in the days when you docked thought they looked weird with tails when I first saw them now I am used to seeing them with tails, I think the bobbed ones look weird

For a natural bob tail go with a British Bulldog thats what we have now


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## BlindSnake (Nov 20, 2007)

geckodan said:


> Quite tricky I would think considering that the average corgi is born with a tail just as big as a rotti tail. Idiot!!!


http://www.dogs.net.au/webs/boxberry/page4.asp

Now who is the Idiot? Maybe you should do some research before sledging someone..
As far as the breeding goes, I was trying to put it as simple as possible....OK????


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## cockney red (Nov 20, 2007)

Great dogs with or without rudders.


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## ally_pup (Nov 20, 2007)

Well, after your replies and more research it seems more of a hassle and risk to the breed to own a bobtail Rotty, (not that long tails bother me) I guess I will just have to let the other half know the complications of the bobtails and hope to god he can except it. My boy is a long tail and he is the most beautiful thing. Surely my girl in the future will be the same. Thatks to the guys that helpe with my question.


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## Midol (Nov 20, 2007)

Just be careful if you ever work the dogs, there is a reason rotties were docked. Unfortunately bobtails are just a pain in the **** unless done by a pro (as in someone very experienced in genetics).


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