# Trangender/ freaks? Too young?



## waruikazi (Nov 20, 2008)

I know this is a reptile forum but i hope this isn't lost on everyone here and the title was to grab attention so i apologize for that in advance. I don't normally share stories like this i find on the net but this one is rather different.

I'm not quite sure how but yesterday i stumbled on the story of three kids who suffer from gender identity disorder. Basically to sum it up they are two genetic boys aged 6 and 10 and one genetic girl, 14, who identify themselves as their opposite gender and their families allow them to live as that gender. 

Here's the link for the written story http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=3088298&page=1



> On the surface, the Jennings and their four children are a typical American family. But their youngest child, Jazz, is only in kindergarten, and already she is one of the youngest known cases of an early transition from male to female.
> 
> "We'll say things like, 'You're special. God made you special.' Because there aren't very many little girls out there that have a penis," said Renee. "Renee and I are in 100 percent agreement as to how we should raise Jazz," said Scott. "We don't encourage, we support. And we just keep listening to what she tells us."



It is quite long (4 pages) but the first page sums up most of the information, i'd encourage you to read the others or watch the TV series on youtube below if it interests you. I found it all incredibly intriguing, i'm still not quite sure what i think of it yet but one things for sure, if you watch the series you'll have your heart strings tugged on hardcore. 

[video=youtube;Utpam0IGYac]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utpam0IGYac[/video]


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## falconboy (Nov 20, 2008)

I think the mods might keep a close eye on this one when it gets going!


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## Sturdy (Nov 20, 2008)

wow touching.


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## LadySnake (Nov 20, 2008)

I think it's great to see parents supporting their child no matter what. Goodness knows the poor thing is in for life of discrimination and torment so it's fantastic that she has such a strong family behind her.


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## waruikazi (Nov 20, 2008)

falconboy said:


> I think the mods might keep a close eye on this one when it gets going!



I was kinda hoping that other people who have an interest in childhood development or have/are experiencing something similar would gain some kind of insight. But it's APS so i shouldn't set my hopes up too high.


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## tooninoz (Nov 20, 2008)

That's so funny. Not only Barbara Walters and 20/20 (worse than 60 Minutes if possible), but gold like this;
"You're special. God made you special.' Because there aren't very many little girls out there that have a penis," said Renee".

That pap would give Ray Martin hope. :lol:


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## waruikazi (Nov 20, 2008)

Try and judge the story on it's content not it's journalist hey.


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## Tatelina (Nov 20, 2008)

Man that would be so hard.... for everyone.
And even harder if you didn't have a supportive family.


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## tooninoz (Nov 20, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> Try and judge the story on it's content not it's journalist hey.



Just judging it upon the link you provided. Lots of sappy music, Barbara Walters, and a very rare medical condition with half-baked experts giving an opinion?!
Sensationalist journalism at its best 
I'm not taking a stab at you waruikazi, just the crap story.


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## angel (Nov 20, 2008)

ok.... will make for interesting reading? here is an interesting link...http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/article..._man_doesnt_deliver_much_depth/#commentAnchor
it is about a pregnant man.... currently pregnant with HIS second child.......


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## horsesrule (Nov 20, 2008)

Sorry but it needs to be said,

If the parents are facilitating this then any wonder the kid is confused. 

If they were meant to be the opposite sex they would have been born that way, instead they were born the sex they are. 

Sorry but any parent that supports this kind of crap is being irresponsible.


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## shane14 (Nov 20, 2008)

Future cross-dressers LOL I'd be ashamed of my child being a chick if it was a dude


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Nov 20, 2008)

i dont see anything worng with it,as long as there happy and healthy that all that matters.
im a girl that mostly dresses like a dude and my family are very supportive.


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## horsesrule (Nov 20, 2008)

shane13 said:


> Future cross-dressers LOL I'd be ashamed of my child being a chick if it was a dude


 

Yep i agree so would i.


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## waruikazi (Nov 20, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Sorry but it needs to be said,
> 
> If the parents are facilitating this then any wonder the kid is confused.
> 
> ...



There's actually quite a lot of research and evidence about transgender and gender non-conformity that points to it being a real phenomenon and not just a bunch of confused people. I would go out on a limb and say that some of you acquaintances are transgender and you would never know it. 

It's quite obvious that the children (or adults in any case) do not want to be the way they are. The best example i've been given to make a comparison that a 'normal person can understand is imagine you went to hospital and against your will had a full sex change and told to live and conform to what society expects of that gender. I don't recon you could do it, i know i couldn't. 



shane13 said:


> Future cross-dressers LOL I'd be ashamed of my child being a chick if it was a dude



Thank god they aren't either of your kids:lol:. They are gonna need all the support they can get they will have an extremely tough life.


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## horsesrule (Nov 20, 2008)

They need some therapy to set them streight, sorry i come from old school thinking.


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## jessb (Nov 20, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> i come from old school thinking.


 
...commonly known as ignorance.


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## waruikazi (Nov 20, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> They need some therapy to set them streight, sorry i come from old school thinking.



I dare say they would be getting a whole lot of therapy and i totally agree that they need alot, but maybe it's like minded people that need therapy to be set straight? 

You know there have been several studies done that show homophobic (transgender isn't always connected with being gay but i'll make this point anyway and i'm not having a crack at you horsesrule) attitudes are held by people who are not wholly comfortable with there sexuality. 



jessb said:


> ...commonly known as ignorance.



Haha lol.


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## Dave (Nov 20, 2008)

jessb said:


> ...commonly known as ignorance.



rofl.. Aren't you the person who doesn't like same gender marriage Horsesrule?


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## horsesrule (Nov 20, 2008)

jessb said:


> ...commonly known as ignorance.


 

More traditional values i like to think of it as.


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## horsesrule (Nov 20, 2008)

Sorry adults choosing a lifestyle choice for themselfs is one thing, thats up to them.

But kids Um no...

Any parents that indulge the child in this are actually harming the child.


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## Kirby (Nov 20, 2008)

theres nothing wrong with horserules opinions, 

but i disagree, if you met this familty, and these people in real life. it would be different. 

traditional values arent necessarily right, 50 years ago it was legal to shoot aboriginals.


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## jessb (Nov 20, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> More traditional values i like to think of it as.


 
LOL do you also support those "straight camps" where if you just pray enough, God will take away your gayness? My favourite story about one of the biggest of those organisations in the US was when the two men who set it up ran off together! :lol:

But seriously, condemning a kid for feeling a certain way and telling them that their feelings are "wrong" is more than just "traditional values" - it is really damaging. I agree with waruikazi's point about transgender and homosexuality not always being connected, but as an example, the rate of suicide among gay teens is far higher than among straight teens.


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## the.badger (Nov 20, 2008)

shane13 said:


> I'd be ashamed of my child being a chick if it was a dude



Wow, I can't believe that! I think it would take a LOT more than my son wearing a dress to make me feel seriously ashamed of him.

I don't really understand the transgender thing on a medical/psychological level - if it is something that can be completely "cured" in the short and long term then I believe it should be seen to at a very young age, because it's true that their lives would be harder as transgender individuals, which seems like a needless waste if it's not permanently imprinted in them. 

But if it is, and it could very well be (and I personally would give the individual the benefit of the doubt) - then so be it.

If so, I honestly don't think it's anything to be ashamed of. You wouldn't be ashamed if your kid was gay (and I'm not saying that transgenders are gay) because that's just the way they are and have been from a young age. What's the difference here?

I'd be more ashamed if my kid was a homophobe fascist bigot.


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## Glidergirl (Nov 20, 2008)

A 2 year old child saying they are not the right sex and having pparents encourage it, that is going to confuse the child, I am NOT saying this condition doesnt exists but I think the parents should wait until the child is old enough to truly undestand and then let it make its own decision.
A child of 2-5 I dont believe has the capacity to understand and make those kind of decisions. It the parents who have made the decision for them.
What if it is just a phase the child is going to grow up very very confused.

Yes these kids need therapy, but from well respected therapists, we all know that some therapists have been known to do more harm than good just because of what they believe is right . (did that make sense).


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## jessb (Nov 20, 2008)

Glidergirl, these kids were just known as tomboys when we were growing up. Don't make a big deal about it, let your little boy wear dresses, let your little girl cut her hair short and play with trucks; when they understand the concept of sexuality they can decide from there.


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## the.badger (Nov 20, 2008)

jessb said:


> Glidergirl, these kids were just known as tomboys when we were growing up. Don't make a big deal about it, let your little boy wear dresses, let your little girl cut her hair short and play with trucks; when they understand the concept of sexuality they can decide from there.



Exactly. At that age, all we're talking about are clothes and toys anyway.


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## Recharge (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Sorry but it needs to be said,
> 
> If the parents are facilitating this then any wonder the kid is confused.
> 
> ...



except there have been medical studies (including autopsies of the brain) going back to the 60's that show this is real.
"if they were meant to blah blah Blah" so you discourage any medical correction of any kind for a child? because "if they were meant to be born any other way"??
you're towing a dangerous line there.



shane13 said:


> Future cross-dressers LOL I'd be ashamed of my child being a chick if it was a dude



do you have children? have they grown up yet? you may yet be in for a surprise 

sexuality can't be "cured" the.badger.. you are what you are.. you can choose to be different once you're an adult, but few people would willingly go against their own nature. 

I find the fact that a parent could be ashamed of their child's sexual identity appalling.
but then, parents are people, and people tend to be stupid about things that don't' align with their world view 

people tend to be stupid about a great many things


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 21, 2008)

I wonder, have there been any cases where a child (they are known to be fickle) has been indulged in his/her desire to be the opposite sex, only to have that child change his/her mind down the track and want to go back? I can't be bothered to research it but has anyone heard of this happening?

As an aside, I have a similar condition. I was born a poor person, but I know in my heart I was meant to be wealthy. Since everyone here is so understanding and compassionate about these types of conditions, I would like start collecting donations for my "Wealth Reassignment" surgery. I require large injections of cash on a regular basis and they are very expensive. Any help would be appreciated!


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## Ninjaette (Nov 21, 2008)

akira said:


> I wonder, have there been any cases where a child (they are known to be fickle) has been indulged in his/her desire to be the opposite sex, only to have that child change his/her mind down the track and want to go back? I can't be bothered to research it but has anyone heard of this happening?
> 
> As an aside, I have a similar condition. I was born a poor person, but I know in my heart I was meant to be wealthy. Since everyone here is so understanding and compassionate about these types of conditions, I would like start collecting donations for my "Wealth Reassignment" surgery. I require large injections of cash on a regular basis and they are very expensive. Any help would be appreciated!



LOL!!!

Hey I think I might have the same condition too Akira...


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## ilovejordan (Nov 21, 2008)

I really dont think that theres anything wrong with it myself,It all depends on what they feel most comfortable in,myself i rather comfort than fashion so if i think guys clothes are more comfortable ill wear them I dont really give a crap what people think or say.In this case its a disorder for them they didnt choose it,I reckon its wrong for anyone to be labelled a freak whether its a decision of theirs or not.:x


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## Wench (Nov 21, 2008)

those photos are cute  she is a cute lil girl regardless of whats under her dress.
a chick at school was determined to live her life as a boy. she takes all the pills etc so that she has a lower voice and body hair.
some of her features are still very soft/girlish but she looks pretty much like a man (cept for downstairs)
do whatever makes ya happy  if the kid grows up and goes you know what i actually wanna be a boy, then she/he can?


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## LullabyLizard (Nov 21, 2008)

I watched all 5 and I found it very interesting. I think that there is nothing wrong with being a transgender person, but I feel sorry for them. Imagine how much they would be bullied and teased


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 21, 2008)

Ninjaette said:


> LOL!!!
> 
> Hey I think I might have the same condition too Akira...


 
 As soon as I get in touch with Oprah, I'll make sure she puts us both on TV Ninjaette!!


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## Sturdy (Nov 21, 2008)

im with everyone else here..

personlly i see nothing wrong with it. 
Ive worked with SE children before an some of the conditions these kids have to live with is a sad sight. 
there is one boy i tend to work with a bit. hes only 8 is blind in 1 eye, completely deaf, born with out a voice box an has to be fed with a tube.

this boy has learned how to comunicate using signing.....
and is now slowly learning to read and write.

if anyone here has done any work with SE children you will understand that any mental condition is NOT a phase.
unlike ms spears trip to the phyic ward with a shaved head - thats a phase. 


i can understand a majority of the older members on here have the shallow unaccepting point of view with the what i say goes attuide...

honestly think to yourself. 
would you be ashamed?

put it in a 50/50 choice
what would you be ashamed about

your lil boy really wants to be a lil girl.

or later in life your lil boy becomes a man an is then convicted of rape an murder........

i know which one i would hang my head in shame about.


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## missllama (Nov 21, 2008)

i just feel sorry for the little kid because its horrible to imagine what they will go through growing up from other school parents and children

its really good the parents are so accepting


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## jessb (Nov 21, 2008)

It's funny that many of the people on here who are saying "Imagine how much they will get teased at school" are parents. I think as a parent it is our job to teach our kids to be accepting and tolerant of everyone then teasing and bullying will be less of an issue.


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## bundy_zigg (Nov 21, 2008)

I remember watching a doco about a little boy who knew he was a girl in side and wanted his parents help - this was from about 2yrs old. His dad just made him do really blokey stuff and would hit him every time he said anything about being a girl, the mother wanted to help(she was the main person on the doco) but let the father treat the boy the way he did. The boy killed him self at the age of 10, physiologists said he would have been extremely depressed due to what he had been through. His father in my opinion killed the little boy!!
This is a condition just like bipolar - schizophrenia - ADD and loads more


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

akira said:


> I wonder, have there been any cases where a child (they are known to be fickle) has been indulged in his/her desire to be the opposite sex, only to have that child change his/her mind down the track and want to go back? I can't be bothered to research it but has anyone heard of this happening?
> 
> As an aside, I have a similar condition. I was born a poor person, but I know in my heart I was meant to be wealthy. Since everyone here is so understanding and compassionate about these types of conditions, I would like start collecting donations for my "Wealth Reassignment" surgery. I require large injections of cash on a regular basis and they are very expensive. Any help would be appreciated!



Yes there is a case similar to what you are referring to. There was a pair of twins born in the 70's when they were getting circumcised one of the boys accidentally had his penis burnt completely off. He had one of the first gender reassignment procedures and was given hormones and was never told he was a bio boy until he was 15. His whole life he knew something was wrong and felt he was a boy, not a girl as the was brought upto feel. His name was David Reimer and he suicided around 2004 i think. Here's link to a summary of his story http://www.isna.org/faq/reimer

However most doctors wont perform gender reassignment surgery until a patient is 18 but they can get hormone therapy at younger ages to halt puberty.


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

Glidergirl said:


> A 2 year old child saying they are not the right sex and having pparents encourage it, that is going to confuse the child, I am NOT saying this condition doesnt exists but I think the parents should wait until the child is old enough to truly undestand and then let it make its own decision.
> A child of 2-5 I dont believe has the capacity to understand and make those kind of decisions. It the parents who have made the decision for them.
> What if it is just a phase the child is going to grow up very very confused.
> 
> Yes these kids need therapy, but from well respected therapists, we all know that some therapists have been known to do more harm than good just because of what they believe is right . (did that make sense).



A lot of kids with this disorder that aren't 'indulged' (i like to call it supported) suicide before they make it through adolescence. I'm also wondering how young is too young and where to draw the line as far as living as their psychological gender. 

But then again, letting them live as they feel most comfortable makes them so happy and it isn't hurting anyone so why should i have a problem with it.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Nov 21, 2008)

ilovejordan said:


> I really dont think that theres anything wrong with it myself,It all depends on what they feel most comfortable in,myself i rather comfort than fashion so if i think guys clothes are more comfortable ill wear them I dont really give a crap what people think or say.In this case its a disorder for them they didnt choose it,I reckon its wrong for anyone to be labelled a freak whether its a decision of theirs or not.:x


 well we must go to the freak camp now! oh and see someone for our problems
there not freaks,there normal kids that didnt ask to be born like they have been.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

Lets assume for argument sake that this is a "medical condition" and they were "born like this"

If this is the case then they should be given medical treatment to fix the problem.

It should be treated as any other illness would be.

There kids let them be kids, what an adult decides to do with there life is there choice. 

I find it funny that if you have an alternative view you are "ignorant" or a "bigot" It is actually people who choose to live these unnatural lifestypes that are the bigots or ignorant and dont respect others views and try and force it on us all.

I have seen how people who believed they were "gay" for example have forced there views onto people who dont agree with this and have deeply offended them by bringing there "gay" partners to peoples houses, that dont agree with this lifestyle.

This is clearly not respecting ones views and being ignorant and a bigot towards them.

I have also seen how it can destroy a family.


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## jessb (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Lets assume for argument sake that this is a "medical condition" and they were "born like this"
> 
> If this is the case then they should be given medical treatment to fix the problem.
> 
> ...


 
So all the gay people you know try to "force their lifestyle on you"? What? Drag you into bed? I doubt it! 

Someone bringing their partner to a family bbq is being ignorant and bigoted? Or is it the reaction of the bigots at the event who have a problem? Do you bring your hetero partner to a family event and expect to be shunned? The general rule of thumb is: If you can reverse the situation and it becomes unreasonable, then it's bigotry. 

Why don't you stay in your insular little homophobic backwater world where you can hate and be intolerant of whoever you want. I just hope you don't decide to live in a cosmopolitan city one day and have to *gasp* work with or sit next to a gay/transgender person!

Or better still ,why don't you go worm your snake...


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## Sturdy (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I have seen how people who believed they were "gay" for example have forced there views onto people who dont agree with this and have deeply offended them by bringing there "gay" partners to peoples houses, that dont agree with this lifestyle.
> 
> This is clearly not respecting ones views and being ignorant and a bigot towards them.
> 
> I have also seen how it can destroy a family.


 

what are you trying to say exactly?


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## euphorion (Nov 21, 2008)

thanks for posting waruikazi


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## fishbot (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Lets assume for argument sake that this is a "medical condition" and they were "born like this"
> 
> If this is the case then they should be given medical treatment to fix the problem.
> 
> ...



Not every condition is curable, some conditions can only ever be managed - this is one of those conditions. 

Placing the word gay in quotation marks to imply that the term is inaccurate is an indication of your gross ignorance - you lack the required knowledge to offer a valuable contribution to this topic.

If a person being gay destroys a family, then it was never a true family - families are about unconditional love, not bigotry.

Oh, and as for the topic - whatever makes them happy.


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Lets assume for argument sake that this is a "medical condition" and they were "born like this"
> 
> If this is the case then they should be given medical treatment to fix the problem.
> 
> ...



You are ignorant if you hold an opinion (which you are entitled too do) that is not based on rational thought. Your opinion is bigoted when it discriminates against a person due to something they either have no control over (such as gender, sexual preference) or because they practice something they are legally entitled to practice (religion etc.) I'd like to make my next point pretty clear, opinions can be wrong. 

I find it interesting that people who hold homophobic attitudes think that people who are openly gay are somehow forcing their views onto others. They are not, they are living the way they need to live to be happy and don't give two hoots how you live your life as you shouldn't give two hoots about how they live theirs.

The way you are saying 'believe they are gay' makes it sound like you still believe sexuality is a choice. There is as much chance as them choosing to be gay as you, could you choose to be gay? I didn't think so. Here's a video that should set things straight for you, it's quite funny and about four and a half minutes long. 

[video=youtube;LYMjXucTFaM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYMjXucTFaM&feature=related[/video]

As for their sexuality destroying families, it's the families issue not the individual. The family has destroyed the family, not the person coming out who has no control over the situation.

Anyway this isn't a debate about homosexuality. This thread is about children (and adults) who have gender identity issues, this is the one thread i have made that i don't want locked lol.


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## Colin (Nov 21, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> You know there have been several studies done that show homophobic attitudes are held by people who are not wholly comfortable with their own sexuality.




I've heard exactly the same thing from people I know who are psychologists... and apparently its the ones that scream homophobic stuff the loudest that have secret sexuality issues.. 

It stands to reason really when you see those footy types who have homophobic attitudes hugging and kissing each other... and lets not forget the hopoate scrum "incident" 


I dont think anyone has the right to judge someone else over these issues. live and let live


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## Fireflyshuffle (Nov 21, 2008)

HORSESRULE-OMG! shame on you for everything you said! and shame on YOUR PARENTS for bringing you up that way!!!!! Thats where one less of people like you makes this world a better place. how ignorant, selfish and stubborn you are, i feel sorry for your kids(if your ever lucky enough to have one, which ill then feel sorry for the father that has to put up with your crude remarks also) good on YOU for being such a spackjob! grow up and act your age!, you have no feelings towards it, dont post.Now can i say, good on you waruikazi for posting this and making people realise it is out there, and all they need is support!


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## jessb (Nov 21, 2008)

Colin said:


> I've heard exactly the same thing from people I know who are psychologists... and apparently its the ones that scream homophobic stuff the loudest that have secret sexuality issues..
> 
> It stands to reason really when you see those footy types who have homophobic attitudes hugging and kissing each other... and lets not forget the hopoate scrum "incident"


 
And all the cross-dressing on The Footy Show :lol:


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

jessb said:


> And all the cross-dressing on The Footy Show :lol:



I play footy....







LOL :lol:


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## Nik (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I have seen how people who believed they were "gay" for example have forced there views onto people who dont agree with this and have deeply offended them by bringing there "gay" partners to peoples houses, that dont agree with this lifestyle.
> 
> This is clearly not respecting ones views and being ignorant and a bigot towards them.
> 
> I have also seen how it can destroy a family.


 
Did they force their views by attending the house and being themselves or did they try to make everyone gay? 

I've not met a gay person who wants to convert the straight to a gay lifestyle. It seems to be a straight idea that people who are gay need to change and become straight.

People who are gay don't destroy families, differing opinions and attitudes distroy families when people just can't accept each other. Is it the fault of the gay person or the fault of those who arn't accepting?

I'm of the opinion that if I don't want to sleep with someone then I don't care who they sleep with. 

As far as these kids go the issues are extremly complex and research (although it has been somewhat limited) tends to show that some grow up to be transgendered adults and some grow up to be gay adults(I'm not sure if some grow up to be straight). The parents are in a hard situation and I guess are just trying to do the best they can with what their lives have given them.


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## Colin (Nov 21, 2008)

nice pic gordo  got any more you'd like to share? 



waruikazi said:


> I play footy....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

Colin said:


> nice pic gordo  got any more you'd like to share?



Definitely not! This is a family site and i don't want to force my bigoted views onto others. :lol:


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## English (Nov 21, 2008)

i have two friends who have surgically became woman due to the feeling that they were not men - their stories are amazing and one of great strength in a society that 'hates' difference or the unknown. 

one had children as a man and is now a woman who is still very much involved in the raising of her children - the children are very healthy, happy and well adjusted personalities.

the other is still with her wife and teenage daughters - she is also one of Australia's top Meteorologists.

to me they are women, and understand the world in a very complex way... i love and respect them both and would support them regardless - from this i have learnt to respect diversity and would support my children if this became an issue for them - i'd just want my children to be happy.

i have known of so many suicides from young people who struggled to deal with their identity because the fear from an oppressive world was too much... the loss of these souls is sad and will never be replaced. it is such values held that are represented in some of the responses here that lead young people to committ such an act... it is a lack of education and human understanding...

stand up and be proud of who you are and do no harm to another - educate those who want to listen and turn the cheek to those who don't...

ps - when ever it comes down to talking about homosexuality or transgender etc it always goes back to what it is they do that is different from the 'norm' - we dont quiz heterosexuals, we don't focus on their sexuality or private lives etc... i agree with Jess here...

who here like the films gladitor or alxandra the great etc... ummm they were the most homoerotic films i have seen in a long time... i liked them and i am a stupid breeder!


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## ilovejordan (Nov 21, 2008)

Yeah off to freak camp we go babe haha.



reptilegirl_jordan said:


> well we must go to the freak camp now! oh and see someone for our problems
> there not freaks,there normal kids that didnt ask to be born like they have been.


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## ilovejordan (Nov 21, 2008)

I dont like where this is going....


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

English said:


> i have two friends who have surgically became woman due to the feeling that they were not men - their stories are amazing and one of great strength in a society that 'hates' difference or the unknown.
> 
> one had children as a man and is now a woman who is still very much involved in the raising of her children - the children are very healthy, happy and well adjusted personalities.
> 
> ...



I don't suppose you know how old they were when they knew they were trans? That's the thing that i find so intriguing about this story, how young these kids are and how young they were when they first started to show this kind of behaviour.


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## English (Nov 21, 2008)

i am closer with nat and she knew from the age of 8 that she felt different and did not feel comfortable in the male body - though it did take until she was 22 to start the procedure and recieive counselling.. i think it is that we now know what to look for and we are starting to understand the behaviours exhbitited to the reason that it is becoming more publically spoken about - also hopefully society is more accepting of the differences in humanity and embrassing them.


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## pete12 (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Lets assume for argument sake that this is a "medical condition" and they were "born like this"
> 
> If this is the case then they should be given medical treatment to fix the problem.
> 
> ...



:shock::shock: 

how can your view on this Subject be so narrow?

really i dont see the problem with Gay or alternative people!! 

i dont see why the greater community looks so harshly apon it after all we are all humans and deserve to be treated all the same way even if we dont do things the same way and are different from each other after all thats what makes this world work . I think if you look apon this subject in such an un acceptive you will never get far in life after all we have to deal with people on a daily basis and if you cant accept certain types of people then as i said before you wont get far in life!


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## English (Nov 21, 2008)

just need to say also that challanging attitudes that discriminate against GL&T is the start of positive breaking down the barriers - A male friend of mine used to get into fights week in week out, got heavily involved in boxing, and continued to drink and fight weekly.. was very distructive behaviour and he obviously did not like himself much - When he learnt to accept that he was gay his violent and distructive attitude stopped - This would not have happened if the world continued to breed hatred towards GL&T people and I fear something terrible would have happened...

best part is - he is happy where he is at, has a beautiful partner and he is one of the hardest dudes I know.. he'd take down many a straight men in seconds... it is great when the unsuspecting straight guy starts chatting and then mouths off about 'poofs' and he just sits there and smiles... i then like to mention oh yeah my mate here is a 'poof' - I love it and it shows that being man or a woman is not based on what you do in the bedroom!


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

pete12 said:


> :shock::shock:
> 
> how can your view on this Subject be so narrow?
> 
> ...



Pete it really is refreshing to see such different attitudes in teenagers now compared to those when i was in high school. When i was in school if you accepted any of this you were labeled a poof or fag aswell and just about all gay and lesbian school kids were ostracized. It's good to see that the attitudes are changing, now if only some of us older people could be more modern.


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## llasher (Nov 21, 2008)

I agree. I am not a bigot but these people are clearly on a mission to convert us all into unnatural lifestyles. 

My own children have been banned from watching Hollywood musicals including the Wizard of Oz, or Cats, the movie, due to the risk that this abomination infect and disrupt our family by turning our children into mincing drag queens emulating Judy Garland. 

I too have seen people who believed they were "gay" who think it is perfectly reasonable to openly admit that they prefer a partner of the same sex, thereby forcing their views on me and putting me at immediate risk of homosexualitis. _As if it were their right in our society to chose who to have sex with! _

Mind you, they do have nice hairstyles.




horsesrule said:


> It is actually people who choose to live these unnatural lifestypes that are the bigots or ignorant and dont respect others views and try and force it on us all.
> 
> I have seen how people who believed they were "gay" for example have forced there views onto people who dont agree with this and have deeply offended them by bringing there "gay" partners to peoples houses, that dont agree with this lifestyle.
> 
> ...


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## pete12 (Nov 21, 2008)

i think all this hate and despise against Alternatives was originally sparked by religions (no offense anybody) because of there narrow minded views on things and that has really changed the world i really think this world would be a better place without religion. 

now you will all probly disagree with me but i dont care thats my view and i have a right to express it!


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## Colin (Nov 21, 2008)

pete12 said:


> i think all this hate and despise against Alternatives was originally sparked by religions (no offense anybody) because of there narrow minded views on things and that has really changed the world i really think this world would be a better place without religion.
> 
> now you will all probly disagree with me but i dont care thats my view and i have a right to express it!




I agree with you pete  
religion has done disgraceful things to people throughout history and I agree the world would be a much better place without ALL religions


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## LullabyLizard (Nov 21, 2008)

pete12 said:


> i think all this hate and despise against Alternatives was originally sparked by religions (no offense anybody) because of there narrow minded views on things and that has really changed the world i really think this world would be a better place without religion.
> 
> now you will all probly disagree with me but i dont care thats my view and i have a right to express it!



Good point, I agree with you!


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## Rocky (Nov 21, 2008)

shane13 said:


> Future cross-dressers LOL I'd be ashamed of my child being a chick if it was a dude


I'd be ashamed to have a child with such a closed mind.



horsesrule said:


> They need some therapy to set them streight, sorry i come from old school thinking.



Old school thinking aye? Then why are you on the computer? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen cooking, or opening a beer for your partner?



I watched all 5 parts of the story, (as terrible as the Journalistic work was) it was a good story, I am against the parents showing their child on national Tv, thats silly. I fell Sorry for the child, imagine what she would be feeling, how confused she would be at that age.


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## Rocky (Nov 21, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> Pete it really is refreshing to see such different attitudes in teenagers now compared to those when i was in high school. When i was in school if you accepted any of this you were labeled a poof or fag aswell and just about all gay and lesbian school kids were ostracized. It's good to see that the attitudes are changing, now if only some of us older people could be more modern.




Pete and a few of the other teenagers who have commented on this are exceptions, (must be the reptiles) 90% of teenagers I know are bastards.


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

Rocky said:


> I'd be ashamed to have a child with such a closed mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Putting their child on TV is a massive risk to both the child and family, but i think it was for the greater good. All three of these kids in my eyes are heroes of their cause. Their story would have been seen by millions and would have helped countless other kids and adults to come to terms with their identity. 



Rocky said:


> Pete and a few of the other teenagers who have commented on this are exceptions, (must be the reptiles) 90% of teenagers I know are bastards.



I wish there was some kind of acceptance education (crap name i'm sure they can think of something better) the same as there is harmony day to fight racism.


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## Rocky (Nov 21, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> Putting their child on TV is a massive risk to both the child and family, but i think it was for the greater good. All three of these kids in my eyes are heroes of their cause. Their story would have been seen by millions and would have helped countless other kids and adults to come to terms with their identity.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish there was some kind of acceptance education (crap name i'm sure they can think of something better) the same as there is harmony day to fight racism.




Yeah, put that family at risk, but might have helped others.


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## Hooglabah (Nov 21, 2008)

theres a harmony day never heard of it.

I agree with all the positive responses on this thread and i also agree that the world would be a better place with out religion. 

I mean for a start wed be 800 years more technologically advanced we lost that nice chunk of potential evolution thanks to the spanish inquisition and the eras where the church ruled Europe and banned all scientific reasearch and labelled it as blaphemy.


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

Hooglabah said:


> theres a harmony day never heard of it.



Maybe we only do it in Darwin? It's a global thing but maybe it wasn't introduced before we left school.


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## djfreshy (Nov 21, 2008)

U look hot in that wedding dress Gordo!


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

djfreshy said:


> U look hot in that wedding dress Gordo!



I tells ya womens fashion hurts bad! Those bloody high heels gave me cramps for days! But i did look pretty good


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## Sturdy (Nov 21, 2008)

Waruikazi your not the only footy boy to do it.


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## waruikazi (Nov 21, 2008)

Ooh wow Sturdy, you look like trailer trash meets Scottish highland dance... I like it  :lol:. Just be glad you didn't wear those heels.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

jessb said:


> Why don't you stay in your insular little homophobic backwater world where you can hate and be intolerant of whoever you want. I just hope you don't decide to live in a cosmopolitan city one day and have to *gasp* work with or sit next to a gay/transgender person!
> 
> Or better still ,why don't you go worm your snake...


 


First of all i dont live in a "homophobic back water" and i most certainly dont "hate"

And i do live in a city and have known many.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

This is why people dislike gay people or gay supporters because if you say you dont agree with there choice in lifestyle and im sorry i do believe it is a choice, then are you branded a bigot or a racist or god knows what else. 

Thats just rubbish.

For the record what adult people choose to do in the privacy of there own home is none of my concern. That is there choice.

This topic is about Children who are like blank slates when they are born.

Supporting crossdressing in children is insanity at its worst.


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## Recharge (Nov 21, 2008)

"nothing says hate like "freaks" "not natural" etc etc 
what? you think society will collapse in a flaming pit of hell if we let people do what they want? (that doesn't bother any one else, what so ever)

children are blank slates when they are born? lol 
genetics my friend, nothing is a "blank" slate when it's born.
the cognitive mind may be unformed, but there's a LOT there from the get go.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

Recharge said:


> "nothing says hate like "freaks" "not natural" etc etc
> what? you think society will collapse in a flaming pit of hell if we let people do what they want? (that doesn't bother any one else, what so ever)
> 
> children are blank slates when they are born? lol
> ...


 

That depends if you believe everything is determined by genetics or like me you believe some is determined by genetics and the rest is determined by a childs life experiences and education.


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## Recharge (Nov 21, 2008)

except that belief does not make it so, nor does disbelief.
there is a mountain of scientific study and evidence that leads to your beliefs being incorrect.
yet you ignore it willy nilly.

life experience will have a great deal of bearing on a lot of things, it *can* have an impact of sexual development, but it doesn't set what it is in totality.
unless you can show direct causation in your very own life, what are you basing your beliefs on exactly?
simply because they support your world view?

you say you don't hate, and you don't want to change what people do in their privacy, yet then argue exactly that? in a catch cry of "think of the children" 
but do you think of your children? do you evaluate every little thing that you impart upon them?
every interaction they see and hear between you and your partner?
god forbid one of yours turns out to be a "freak" who will you blame then? yourself? or MUST it have been someone else? do you know every little corner of your child's mind to KNOW that they are healthy and functioning within your own belief structure? 

it's one thing to believe what you do, but you make it quite plain and obvious you DON'T want people to live that way, it's clear within most of your replies thus far... and I'm yet to see why, what is your motivation?


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

As i have stated what consenting adults choose to do is there choice. 

I don't care.

Children are not adults. 

I should add that some scientific studies have found in gay men certain chemicals in the brain are at higher levels than hetro sexual men. This clearly indicates there is something physiological going on.

I believe as science continues to advance it will be discovered what causes people to deviate from what is natural. 

I wonder what Charles Darwin thinks about this ???


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## Recharge (Nov 21, 2008)

I believe he'd say sexual deviance fits perfectly within a natural balanced system.
evolution at work, to continue to change, to try random variance and to find better ways to continue up the chain.

what "we" believe is "natural" it totally stupid, all of it is natural, it's evolution at work.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

If it was all natural then explain why 2 people of the same sex cant produce offspring?


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## jessb (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> If it was all natural then explain why 2 people of the same sex cant produce offspring?


 
Nor can many hetero couples - hence the assisted fertility industry! Nor can an elderly hetero couple, does that mean old people having sex is unnatural? (as opposed to just a wee bit icky...) :lol:


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## English (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I should add that some scientific studies have found in gay men certain chemicals in the brain are at higher levels than hetro sexual men. This clearly indicates there is something physiological going on.
> 
> I believe as science continues to advance it will be discovered what causes people to deviate from what is natural.
> 
> I wonder what Charles Darwin thinks about this ???



the same could be said about pigmentation in humans then... is something physiological going on there that we white, middle class, heterosexuals could treat?


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## Recharge (Nov 21, 2008)

6 Billion people in the world.. we are approaching over crowding, an increase of people incapable of reproduction would be beneficial to the species. as just a starting possibility. "population control"

not every member of a species *needs* to reproduce, unless you call plague proportions a good thing?
we have changed much of "natural" progression, with science medicine and other avenues, to then follow your logic is a little silly don't you think?

there are many reasons and possible reasons to explain these things to fit perfectly within nature.
do you think much of any of the current way of the human world is natural? apart from life it's self chasing a never ending progression toward some form of perfection or elevation, nothing "we" do as a species is natural, but that makes it natural by definition, that is how we are geared to function.


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## ilovejordan (Nov 21, 2008)

I agree with the religion part of it...



pete12 said:


> i think all this hate and despise against Alternatives was originally sparked by religions (no offense anybody) because of there narrow minded views on things and that has really changed the world i really think this world would be a better place without religion.
> 
> now you will all probly disagree with me but i dont care thats my view and i have a right to express it!


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

I wonder how many cross dressing kids there are in Iran or Afghanistan or Pakistan ? Or for that matter any islamic country??


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## Nik (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I wonder how many cross dressing kids there are in Iran or Afghanistan or Pakistan ? Or for that matter any islamic country??


 
Really? I wonder how many homophobes are in Germany.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

Jye and Peady said:


> Really? I wonder how many homophobes are in Germany.


 

Probably not a lot because europe is more open to these kinds of issues.


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## Nik (Nov 21, 2008)

Jye and Peady said:


> Really? I wonder how many homophobes are in Germany.


 
I don't really but it's about as relevant as how many cross dressing kids there are in Iran or Afghanistan or Pakistan


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

I think it is relevant different cultures have different values.

Values tend to shape choices.


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## the.badger (Nov 21, 2008)

You're right, values do tend to shape choices horsesrule. But I think so far you're the only person active within this thread that thinks transgenderism is a choice.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

the.badger said:


> You're right, values do tend to shape choices horsesrule. But I think so far you're the only person active within this thread that thinks transgenderism is a choice.


 

Oh im not suprised i am the only person there would be others but they probably dont want to put there name out there to be called a bigot and whatever else insults can be thrown.

I wonder if a poll was taken in Australia how many would support either side? 

I am quite sure there would be a lot who agree with me.


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## Recharge (Nov 21, 2008)

yes well, a lot of people agree the holocaust didn't happen too, doesn't make it true though does it...

as to your questions re Muslim countries.. none in public, it's a death sentence, not much choice there is there..
here we have choice, well, except for those who are bent on denying people for no good reason what so ever.


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## the.badger (Nov 21, 2008)

Recharge said:


> sexuality can't be "cured" the.badger.. you are what you are.. you can choose to be different once you're an adult, but few people would willingly go against their own nature.



Sexuality and gender are two completely different things, Recharge. I'm not saying sexuality can be "cured", nor am I saying that transgender tendencies can be. I'm simply saying that I don't know anything at all about the scientific study of transgenderism (and I haven't formed a thoroughly researched opinion on the subject) so IF trans tendencies are some sort of 'condition' and it can be scientifically proven that it can be completely 'cured' FOR EVER, as some people are suggesting, then I think it should be for the sake of the child.

Personally I don't think this is the case. I suspect that, like many similar "conditions" (ie. natural tendencies), trans gender tendencies could, at best, only be 'managed' (or rather, supressed) with therapy and drugs, which I think is stupid and unnecissary.

I don't think transgender people have a choice in the matter, I don't think they're harming anyone by living their lives the way the see fit, and I certainly don't think that by openly living in a transgender capacity they're bigots, intolerant, narrow-minded, destroying families or forcing their opinions on others - or whatever it was that was said in a previous post.


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## Everny (Nov 21, 2008)

just to note it here - there is a very very fine line between male and female physical development...

and a percentage of children (despite their genetic factors) are born 'somewhere in between' when it comes to sexual organs...
*shrug*


its quite an interesting read, though. and debate.


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## ambah (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Oh im not suprised i am the only person there would be others but they probably dont want to put there name out there to be called a bigot and whatever else insults can be thrown.
> 
> I wonder if a poll was taken in Australia how many would support either side?
> 
> I am quite sure there would be a lot who agree with me.


 
I agree that there would still be alot of people in Australia that agree with you now, but just think of how it's changed, especially in the last 10 years. How many of those people that agree with you now will change their minds in the next couple of years?


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## ambah (Nov 21, 2008)

Everny said:


> just to note it here - there is a very very fine line between male and female physical development...
> 
> and a percentage of children (despite their genetic factors) are born 'somewhere in between' when it comes to sexual organs...
> *shrug*


 
True, and how many of those children get to choose which sex they want to be? I suppose this would be easier for people to comprehend, because both the organs were there to begin with, whereas with the children mentioned in this thread, society automatically places them in "girl" or "boy" colum


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

I agree it has changed a lot.

Some for the better some for the worse.

I know when i was in high school "queers, gays and cross dressers" were ridiculed abused and assaulted. 

If you had a brain you would never announe it if you were.

I remember we had a cross dressing gay male in high school, and the problems it caused were enormous.

The males did not want him using there toilets fearing being perved on
The females didnt want him in there toilet either.

In the end he had to use the principals toilet. 

I do recall though this particular individual would talk openly and glote about his cross dressing and was rather in your face about it. This offended many and probably resulted in the torment that this person was subjected to. I do recall this person was locked in a disused toiled for almost a full day on a few occasions.

This was intollerance and bigotry.

I never agreed with this and never participated.

However we are all entitled to oppinions.

So all you who think because i choose a different opinion i am a bigot you have all now been proved wrong.


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## jessb (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I agree it has changed a lot.
> 
> Some for the better some for the worse.
> 
> ...


 
Aaaah, now I see, it was HIS fault that he was abused by inbred rednecks! Now it all makes sense.

On a similar note, we had a very camp, gay guy in our highschool, and loads of people didn't like him, but mostly because he was an annoying tw at. His sexuality had nothing to do with it LOL.


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## the.badger (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I do recall though this particular individual would talk openly and glote about his cross dressing and was rather in your face about it. This offended many and probably resulted in the torment that this person was subjected to. I do recall this person was locked in a disused toiled for almost a full day on a few occasions.
> 
> This was intollerant and bigotry.



JessB, I think Horsesrule is saying that the people who locked him in the toilet and tormented him were intolerant bigots, NOT that the trans guy was a bigot because he was open about crossdressing. I hope so anyway.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

jessb said:


> Aaaah, now I see, it was HIS fault that he was abused by inbred rednecks! Now it all makes sense.
> 
> On a similar note, we had a very camp, gay guy in our highschool, and loads of people didn't like him, but mostly because he was an annoying tw at. His sexuality had nothing to do with it LOL.


 

Nope he did not deserved to be abused.

However if he had kept his lifestyle to himself and not brought it to school well i doubt he would have had any problems at all.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

the.badger said:


> JessB, I think Horsesrule is saying that the people who locked him in the toilet and tormented him were intolerant bigots, NOT that the trans guy was a bigot because he was open about crossdressing. I hope so anyway.


 

Yes i was.


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## the.badger (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> However if he had kept his lifestyle to himself and not brought it to school well i doubt he would have had any problems at all.



I think the opposite is true - that if he felt he had to hide his trans nature, he would have developed a lot of phsychological problems revolving around identity and self esteem.

I think it's sad that trans people should have to be forced to make that decidion in this day and age, but unfortunately I have no doubt that negative judgement on this issue is still alive and well.


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## jessb (Nov 21, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Nope he did not deserved to be abused.
> 
> However if he had kept his lifestyle to himself and not brought it to school well i doubt he would have had any problems at all.


 

Both those statements contradict each other.


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## notechistiger (Nov 21, 2008)

horserule said:


> However if he had kept his lifestyle to himself and not brought it to school well i doubt he would have had any problems at all.



Ah, so what happened to free speech? Why stop at gays and transgenders? Let's go further and prevent children of other cultures from speaking of it. Religious people must also conform to Christianity- as that _is_ the most common religion.

horserule, you have obviously not put any thought into this, and quite frankly, it sounds as if you were brought up in a home where _nothing_ could be different. Did you have the urge to touch other girls whilst growing up? Going from your comments thus far, it sounds like your parents would have suppressed any of those disgusting tendencies. 

I don't think you're a bigot. I think you're extremely closed minded, and _very_ intolerant of others' views and beliefs. If you don't like it, then shut up. Yes, it's your opinion, but no one wants to hear how much a freak you think they are. If you want to go and spout on about superior you are, then go onto a forum dedicated to that and you and all your other superior buddies can have loads of fun.

One of my closest friend's is gay, and one of my cousins is transgender. You know what, they are the nicest, most accepting people I have ever met. A far cry from you and all your "normal" ideologies.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

jessb said:


> Both those statements contradict each other.


 

Nope not at all i went to a western suburbs state school what did he expect? 

Teachers used to be beat up so it would have been common sense not to make any waves.

It was different back then violence at school was a way of life.


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## the.badger (Nov 21, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Ah, so what happened to free speech? Why stop at gays and transgenders?



How can you talk about "free speech" and then say:



notechistiger said:


> If you don't like it, then shut up. Yes, it's your opinion, but no one wants to hear how much a freak you think they are.



You may not agree with Horsesrule's opinions, but she has just as much right to voice her opinions in this thread as you have to voice yours. After all, the creator of this thread has specifically asked for our opinions on the matter. And Horsesrule has been much more polite about it than you have. I think it's a bit rich to accuse Horsesrule of a superiority complex, and of being intolerant of other peoples' opinions and beliefs, and then go on to submit a post like your previous one.


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## horsesrule (Nov 21, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Ah, so what happened to free speech? Why stop at gays and transgenders? Let's go further and prevent children of other cultures from speaking of it. Religious people must also conform to Christianity- as that _is_ the most common religion.
> 
> horserule, you have obviously not put any thought into this, and quite frankly, it sounds as if you were brought up in a home where _nothing_ could be different. Did you have the urge to touch other girls whilst growing up? Going from your comments thus far, it sounds like your parents would have suppressed any of those disgusting tendencies.
> 
> ...


 

I have not said anyone is superior so dont go distorting what i have actually said. 

I have my reasons for my beliefs.

And no i have never had any thoughts or desires to be with someone of the same sex the thought of it makes me cringe.

Oh and yes i find when people cant win a discussion with reason they resort to insults or attacks.

Anyway getting back to the topic isnt being a GOOD parent about putting the child's BEST interests first???

Allowing your child to cross dress or in anyway facilitate this is certainly not putting the childs best interests first.


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## notechistiger (Nov 21, 2008)

That's the first time I contributed to the discussion. Close minded people make me angry (if you can't tell).

the.badger, free speech wasn't what I meant, but I'm too tired right now to think of what I _did_ mean. I'll remember in the morning.


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## Crystal..Discus (Nov 22, 2008)

*headdesk* *Headdesk* *HEADDESK*

This has turned into a witch hunt. We're smoking out all the people with strong objections and basically gang-raping them. All I have to say is that yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion -- just don't go about provoking people with it (because it makes you just as guilty as the people going after your hides). 

Cheesy music and 'heart-fett' confessions aside, the parents of transgender children aren't 'indulging' them as one is lead to believe; for the time being, they are doing what they think is best, making sure they know that their child is loved and cared for, and being brought up knowing he/she is accepted by them. When their child gets a little older, and starts forming opinions they'll probably be more than happy to work with what he/she has to say in the matter -- which is the right way to go. 

Forcing a child at a young age to be something that he/she isn't is more often than not, asking for a psychological outburst of repressed emotions and confusion when they get older. As an example; as a child, I was forced to play with girls and barbies instead of doing what I wanted to do -- which was sports, rough housing and general havoc and stupidity. My parents flat out refused until I got to a certain age (10) before I could be 'one of the guys.' Which is too late because by the age of 8 we have already formed a consious desicion making process which tells us boys/girls are yukie (Until about the age of 13...*sigh*) 

Now I have a partial complex towards barbies where I avoid everything pink and frilly, and over indulge in 'masculine' activities often ignoring any balance between said masculine activities and feminine mannerisms. (Which most of you know can be a bad thing for one's psyche :?)

There's so much more I could say (like how society impacts on these children), but I'll cut it off here. While the child is young, I'm going to agree with the parents and give them my full support.


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## notechistiger (Nov 22, 2008)

horserule said:


> Allowing your child to cross dress or in anyway facilitate this is certainly not putting the childs best interests first.



How do you know? Are you are child psychologist?


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## Recharge (Nov 22, 2008)

> Allowing your child to cross dress or in anyway facilitate this is certainly not putting the childs best interests first.


how exactly? what difference does clothing make exactly? I'm waiting with baited breath to the answer to this 

and on


> isnt being a GOOD parent about putting the child's BEST interests first???


please, do express what exactly IS the best interests of the child? accepting that people are different? that it doesn't matter how you are as long as you are a good person? (regardless of your gender or sexual persuasion) how about sharing and being a decent human being? 
I'm sure you have the best intentions in your belief structure, but the road to hell is paved in them.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how exactly this is all so bad?, the child feels that way, let them do it, as long as it isn't a negative thing on being a good person.
if they grow out of it fine, if they don't, fine
if you impose such things, they'll just repress the issues and develop psychological issues that'll hamper them later on.
what exactly do you object to here, and why? because I'm having trouble working out your angle


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## Vat69 (Nov 22, 2008)

Recharge, agreeing to debate this topic denotes value in the opposing person's argument, and in this case there isn't any.
We don't debate the occurrence of the Jewish Holocaust because it's a truth. There's little point debating this here. Unless you just really want to.
I just hate to see reasonable thought go to waste


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## Recharge (Nov 22, 2008)

there is good reason to debate in this instance, even if I can't open another's mind, I can at least understand their logic over their belief  (or even if there IS any logic) 
it's easy to just ignore people in things like this, I like to make it dificult on myself and at least try to get them to express their real reasoning 

it may pave a way for me to understand better how to open someone else's mind in the future 

all of us have beliefs in things that are illogical or down right stupid, it's a human trait to want to believe things that will force the world to conform to our comfort zones.
imagine if psychology never took the time to try to understand the human mind because it was dificult? 
there's always a chance it'll help you in some other area, to try to understand the way and reasons some people believe things, maybe even helpful to ourselves to see what we personally believe to be so.
or even further enforce what we already believe.

in truth it's hard not to get angry sometimes, but, patience has it's rewards


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## =bECS= (Nov 22, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I have not said anyone is superior so dont go distorting what i have actually said.
> 
> *I have my reasons for my beliefs.*
> 
> ...



Horsesrule, you have said about 4 or 5 times now you have reasons for your opinion on this, yet you fail to state what they are, the only explanation you use is 'i am from old school opinions'

To me, this is a cop out, i was brought up around 'old school idealologies' as well, but instead of following along with what i was being told what to think, i chose to have an open mind and look at life from both sides of the coin.

So i am curious............ what are the 'real' reasons you have formed this opinion on those who are not heterosexuals or act as what you see to be appropriate and normal? Or are you just blindly following what you have been told to believe?

To me, surgery is taking things abit far, as its been said it is irreversible, and kids being kids, whos to say they wont change their minds down the track.
I wouldn't allow my children to do something like that until they were old enough to sign the forms for themselves, if they still felt that way at the age of 18, it would be more than just a phase.

Being a parent myself, i support my children in whatever they wish to do (within reason) as long as it doesn't break any laws and end up with the police at my door. :lol:


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## Vat69 (Nov 22, 2008)

I understand what you're saying and I agree. I just happen to disagree in this instance. For myself in any case. I'm certainly not making a blanket argument, not even close, I just wasn't being clear.
There is logic being used it's just a different logic from ours.
I'm not at all saying don't debate because it's too difficult, I just think in this particular instance the rewards, if any, will not be worth the time spent to acquire them. More along the lines of 'choosing your battle'.
One of my all time favourite quotes happens to be Aristotle's "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." So believe me when I tell you I understand where you're comming from.
I say all of this only after having seeing the content of the back and forth.
Well then, enjoy


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## daniel1234 (Nov 22, 2008)

*My bit*

What an amazing thread. I hope it stays open.
I had a friend in primary school who I knew until my early teens. He was very feminine, would pretend to were dresses, sing in a very girly sort of way, blah blah blah. The next time I saw him I must of been pushing 20yo and he had a girl friend etc.

I agree religion is the curse of todays world. I think the higher powers are/would be appalled by the way many insist that we worship/believe in them.

I think that support is a very difficult task in this instance. For example I support my daughters choice to attend Sunday School. I also support my boys choice not to attend.
My kids are 7 and 6 years old. My girl is a girl, but plays with my boys cars--sometimes all three of us play together. My boy used to play with my daughters dolls, he chooses not to at the moment. If they sought recognition for their play, I would give that to them as I would for any other activity. 

I don't feel that the parents decision to "support" the children is wrong, and after all we really don't know exactly how they came to that decision. Hopefully it was not a decision but rather a progression of events. That way the children are "free" to get bored of the idea, or continue with it as the case seems to be. I wonder how the kids decide, or even find out about hormone theraphy, at such a young age.

I must admit, I was working agency once and there was a gay nurse on permanent roster (so every one knew who he was) who very casually included a comment about his friend who is a cross-dresser. I was a little shocked i guess at such casual reference to such activity. So I went home and reflected on that and concluded what most here have also, So what?!

Finally, those who are extravertidly outside what you or I regard as normal should be envied. For they have nothing to hide behind. They can no longer pretend to be and therefore hide behind something they are not. They can do nothing more than celebrate who they really are.

Ok goodnight.
zzzzzzzz


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## Everny (Nov 22, 2008)

daniel1234 said:


> What an amazing thread. I hope it stays open.
> I had a friend in primary school who I knew until my early teens. He was very feminine, would pretend to were dresses, sing in a very girly sort of way, blah blah blah. The next time I saw him I must of been pushing 20yo and he had a girl friend etc.




This part i agree with too because i we must remember that nothing like this is set in stone.

to tell an old (and childish) story"

In my early years of highschool (years 7-9) i had a female friend who had an obsession with negro men. to the extent that she wanted to be one; even gave herself a new name and was always remarking about 'how much of a man she was'.
This went in until about the age of 13? and she just... stopped... got a boyfriend, and we called her by her first name again...
For 2 full years, she was called by and pretended to be, a man.

I'm guesing she was influenced by two of her cousins who were both very open about being lesbian - but at that point, she thought she was ugly and would and feel much better as a man. desperately so.

i haven't managed to express the story in the manner i wished... and there was a morale to the story; along the lines of 'children aren't always set in their ways and change their minds'...



NB i may edit this when i re-read it again because the expression is flawed...


in reply to daniel1234
i agree - i really hope this thread stays open too. this means people have to maintain a civil and accepting facade when it comes to other peoples opinions. If you have to disagree please do it nicely.


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## LullabyLizard (Nov 22, 2008)

Originally posted by HORSERULE


> This is why people dislike gay people or gay supporters because if you say you dont agree with there choice in lifestyle and im sorry* i do believe it is a choice*, then are you branded a bigot or a racist or god knows what else


Originally posted by HORSERULE


> I should add that some scientific studies have found in gay men certain chemicals in the brain are at higher levels than hetro sexual men. This clearly indicates there is something physiological going on.




This contradicts itself


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## waruikazi (Nov 22, 2008)

I love the arguments going on and as much as i hate Horsesrule's opinions without them there's no way this thread would have gone so far with so many people contributing. You can get as heated as you want but keep it civil. This is definitely a topic that invokes alot of passion.

I read somewhere that only 20% of trans children grow upto be trans adults, the study didn't show how many trans adults were trans children though. From that stat i think it's dangerous for surgical or medical procedures be to be undertaken at such a young age but i also think that parents supporting their trans children can be nothing but a good thing. Atleast then if it is a phase that they will grow out of they will have had the chance to 'try' it in a supportive environment and know for sure if it is what they truly are. Rather than suppressing their feelings of confusion and self hate and never knowing for sure.

Edit: That stat was from Dr. Phil, he's very pro-family in a religious values ideology. So i think it could be flawed and we all know you can fudge stats to say what you want them too.


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## horsesrule (Nov 22, 2008)

LullabyLizard said:


> Originally posted by HORSERULE
> 
> Originally posted by HORSERULE
> 
> ...


 

Not at all they can choose to get medical treatment including psychological treatment.


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## horsesrule (Nov 22, 2008)

I do have old school beliefs and i also some fundamental religeous beliefs however i should state i am not religeous and i dont go to church or worship and never have.

On morals issues i take a very conservative stand.

On most social issues (unless there moral) i take a very very far left stand.

I will say again like i have said numerous times before. What consenting adults choose to do is completely up to them. I DONT CARE. 

However because i dont care what they do doesnt mean i dont have an oppinion and i do have one. That is i dont understand how they can live like that and i dont agree. 



This thread is about children if children are raised to believe these kinds of things are normal and healthy i can see us having many more of these cross dressing kids in the future.

Lets keep this in perspective there kids let them be kids. 

If a boy is being dressed in girls dresses something is wrong with the parents.

This is NOT NORMAL and this is not healthy.

This is completely not rational nor acceptable to the majority of society.


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## English (Nov 22, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Not at all they can choose to get medical treatment including psychological treatment.



that takes me back to my original response to that notion you put forward... because someone has a physiological difference it does not mean that they can be treated to correct such and nor should they..

with regards to religion - christianity for example - this was created by disciples not by 'jesus' - it was after his death that christianity was given rise hence why the bible is written in such ways - jesus himself was just a man that preached about doing to others as you wish to have done to yourself and he was the man who supported the massive jewish poor community... the story goes on...

you can't generalise in your responses and yes you are entitled to hold an opinon and others are entitled to challenge and debate that - just as someone is entitled to dress, look and act differently without discrimination.

the act that you state is not normal is one that has been written in laws created by white upper and middle class men to control their positions in society over the last thousand or so years... it is a notion that you have been raised to believe in not normal but has been happening within societies all over the world since the start of time.

if you feel it is not normal then i suggest you keep that to yourself like you have requested that GL&T people keep their thoughts to themselves.

see how it works all ways?


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## waruikazi (Nov 22, 2008)

I just can't understand how people find others who are openly different to the norm, particularly with regards to sexuality and gender, so offensive and threatening.


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## English (Nov 22, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> This thread is about children if children are raised to believe these kinds of things are normal and healthy i can see us having many more of these cross dressing kids in the future.



again if it hurts no one who really cares?

a co worker has a young boy who wanted and would only respond to 'kelly' for about 3 months because he wanted to be a girl - she went with it he is now back to being a boy... but if it was something that continued then she would have supported it because she would only want what her child wanted and for that child to be true to themselves regardless of societies values... which do change over time...

it was only 40 years ago that slavery exsisted in the states... and now they have a black president... all never believed would happen or should at some stage in time and now welcomed as a positive in the progression of humanity...

just my couple of bob now i am out for coffee with my gay and transgender friends and their kids!!

OUCH heaven forbid - I got this feeling that i am gonna come back liking men and wanting a fanny... i do like frocks though so half way there!


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## Clairebear (Nov 22, 2008)

If being gay / transgender is a choice, why is there such a high rate of suicide amoungst these categories (esp rural areas where these kids hide it from their parents and friends and try to live a lie). If anyone finds it offensive to be around two gay people, do you believe they should therefore not leave their house, and stay at home cause that's where they belong. What if two gay people find the straight lifestyle offensive. Does that mean all their straight friends can't bring their partners or kids over. Who is to say what is right and wrong in the world. There's no real rules (apart from man made ones). Nature doesn't lay us down with a 'how to' guide. 

And we all know weird things happen in the development of lots of babies (resulting in lots of consequences). If a little boy is as insistent as Jazz was that she wants to be a girl (she was depressed as a boy... a young child DEPRESSED being made to be a boy...) then it's best for the parents to make their child happy. 

Don't mean to offend anyone just wanted to have my own say... might as well everyone else has.


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## Vat69 (Nov 22, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> This thread is about children if children are raised to believe these kinds of things are normal and healthy i can see us having many more of these cross dressing kids in the future.
> 
> Lets keep this in perspective there kids let them be kids.
> 
> ...



It's general knowledge that gender roles are socially constructed and have no real grounding nature. Having this in mind why is it a negative to dress boys in dresses? Why should only females where dresses? It's cloth covering the body. Society gives meaning to this cloth, meaning it needn't have. Negative opinions such as yours reproduce and reinforce these meanings and if everyone stopped teaching their children that only girls wear certain types of clothing and for a boy to wear it is wrong, then the next generation wouldn't have this problem.

Saying that only humans with one set of chromosomes can only wear clothing assigned to them is akin to saying those same humans should be relegated to a life of housekeeping (for example) as determined by their genetics.

You seem to believe that gender roles are some kind of natural thruth which is not at all the case. 'Normal' is relative, thus you cannot deem not-normal as not-healthy in this case. Ideas about gender are fluid and are continuously changing as society changes. 

As it happens I am writing my Honours thesis on gender and if you're interested in expanding your knowledge on the subject, or even just learning more about where your own ideas have originated from I could certainly point you in the direction of some very interesting research.
Your views are very much reflected in 17th and 18th century English gender thinking. You weren't wrong when you said you were traditional! 


*Recharge, I couldn't help myself


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## Recharge (Nov 22, 2008)

hahaha vat, that's ok, I'm a terribly bad influence all round 

though I can feel the futility with horsesrule, not willing to answer any of our queries or much of anything, it's total finger in ear stuff.. oh well, one can only try I guess


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## Freeloader (Nov 22, 2008)

Aren't you supposed to love your kids no matter what????????????????


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## ajwill (Nov 22, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> I play footy....
> 
> :lol:


 You so do! And look mighty fine doing it!

I agree with so much of what has been said here - children are the most precious tasks we will ever be given and no parent, friend, relative or internet chat participant has the right to judge these parents for supporting their children. 

Gender and sexuality are individual decisions and no-one can ever really claim to know the inside of another's reality. 

I have a thirteen year old son and would be proud if he was confident and capable enough to ask these questions of himself.


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## ajwill (Nov 22, 2008)

waruikazi said:


> I don't suppose you know how old they were when they knew they were trans? That's the thing that i find so intriguing about this story, how young these kids are and how young they were when they first started to show this kind of behaviour.



I have a friend whose in her 60s and whose refurbished waterworks are one year older than me - she claims she knew before she started school. Started saving for her surgery with her first job at 16.


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## llasher (Nov 22, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I do have old school beliefs and i also some fundamental religeous beliefs however i should state i am not religeous and i dont go to church or worship and never have.
> 
> On morals issues i take a very conservative stand.


You don't say



> However because i dont care what they do doesnt mean i dont have an oppinion and i do have one. That is i dont understand how they can live like that and i dont agree.


No doubt the gay and lesbian community is very troubled by this news.



> This is NOT NORMAL and this is not healthy.
> 
> This is completely not rational nor acceptable to the majority of society.


 As usual the religious right assumes everyone agrees with them. Also the "oppinion" (sic) always involves foisting those views on others. When did you become the arbiter of what is and isn't "normal"?

Actually the majority of society are quite comfortable with the same sex relationships, its just that our last prime minister wasn't. Check any survey on the subject. I'm not aware of any strong views on boys wearing frocks but maybe you know of some public opinion research. What we do know is that same sex couples make fine parents, something the moral police have yet to accept

By the way, if kids weren't allowed to cross dress we would have no Boy George, RuPaul (look him up) or Danny LaRue (ditto). What a world we would live in


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## the.badger (Nov 22, 2008)

Hahah, OH NOES, a world without Boy George! Hahaha, a fate worse than death. Gosh he was terrible.


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## llasher (Nov 22, 2008)

the.badger said:


> Hahah, OH NOES, a world without Boy George! Hahaha, a fate worse than death. Gosh he was terrible.


Are you crazy? Karma Chameleon was a masterpiece. He married his drummer. Plus he inspired a generation of boys and girls to wear hats, long coats and black nail polish in a non threatening androgynous manner. The Cure, Dead or Alive, Divine: the 80s, were great times to be alive, dragged up and free.


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## the.badger (Nov 22, 2008)

llasher said:


> Are you crazy? Karma Chameleon was a masterpiece. He married his drummer. Plus he inspired a generation of boys and girls to wear hats, long coats and black nail polish in a non threatening androgynous manner. The Cure, Dead or Alive, Divine: the 80s, were great times to be alive, dragged up and free.



Hahahah you're really showing your age now! 

Although I do like hats...


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## Lozza (Nov 22, 2008)

pete12 said:


> i think all this hate and despise against Alternatives was originally sparked by religions (no offense anybody) because of there narrow minded views on things and that has really changed the world i really think this world would be a better place without religion.


Exactly- BC it was perfectly acceptable in Greece, Rome etc for males to engage in sexual activities with other men 



waruikazi said:


> Maybe we only do it in Darwin? It's a global thing but maybe it wasn't introduced before we left school.


We do Harmony day at school here in NSW. We also run a few different "values and equity" type programs dealing with acceptance and friendship regardless of race, gender, religion, wealth, sexuality, disability etc etc. 
There is nothing wrong with being different - everybody is different. If we weren't we would all be clones and wiped out by a single virus :lol:

I think its great for parents to be so supportive of their children. As the parents said "We don't encourage, we _support_. And we just keep listening to what she tells us." They aren't pushing the kid - they are just listening and supporting them, which imo is the best thing they can do.
I agree that surgery shouldn't be considered until they are 18 though and supressive hormones used instead until they are old enough to make an informed decision.


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## jessb (Nov 23, 2008)

llasher said:


> By the way, if kids weren't allowed to cross dress we would have no Boy George, RuPaul (look him up) or Danny LaRue (ditto). What a world we would live in


 
No Eddie Izzard, no _Some Like It Hot_, no Dame Edna...


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## Jay84 (Nov 23, 2008)

OK, well after just spending quite some time reading through all the posts to this thread i am going to add my own reply.

I am an openly gay male, god forbid i offend anyone by being so open about it (Horserule/Shane13)!

Now i am not surprised to hear opinions such as Horserule's and Shane13's. i have had to deal with judgments and taunts from people like them all my life. I am one of the lucky ones, one of those who after so many years of trying to suppress who i am realised there was no use in fighting it, otherwise i would have ended up being a suicide statistic.

i was brought up in an anti gay household. there are a number of incidents that i remember vividly, my dad turning the tv off when there were gays on it, he wouldnt just change the channel..... he would turn the TV off! my mother telling me i shouldnt hang around with a student at school that i told her was gay. i can assure you horserules that this type of behaviour was ALOT more dmaging to my psychology than having 2 parents who were accepting and supportive of me. i came out when i was 18, i kept it secret till this time because at this age i had become independent enough to be able to fend for myself. yes, i was kicked out of home, the inevitable happened.

i have grown up to be very level headed and openminded. my parents also have started changing in their ways. it has taken over 6 years for my parents to enter into a discussion about it. i am still not allowed to stay at their house with my partner. i am not even allowed to hold his hand in their presence. but i know that in years to come it wont be such an issue. they will see that we are in love, and happy together. so i agree that it does take discussions like this to change peoples views or at least educate them.

as for horserules saying it a choice?!?!?!?! where did you come up with that? do you honestly think i or any other GLBT (Gay Lesbian Bi-sexual or Transgendered) person would CHOOSE to live a life of continual judgment, having to keep it a secret to many ppl is wrong. i shouldnt have to fear for my safety whhile walkin the streets at night hand in hand with my partner.

As for them just being children and supposedly not knowing what they want? i have a friend who is post op transgender. she knew from the age of around 4 that she was not ''normal''. she would always want the barbies and dolls, dresses and such. her mother tried to suppress this and buy her boys toys. her dad on the other hand supported her and provided her with such toys. when she was in her teens her mother finally accepted this. when she was 18 she underwent surgery. she is one of the most amazing people i know. her story is amazing, what i have told is nothing to what she has been through.

and about me trying to ''influence'' those ''normal'' people, and be ''disrespectful'' by being true to myself and maybe taking my partner to a family BBQ...... i wouldnt find it disgusting or insulting if you and your partner where to display affection publicly and in view of myself. so why would you? i am not trying to convert anybody...... it is not going to make someone gay by seeing me with my boyfriend...... such a view just doesnt make sense.

anyways, ill sit back and read the replies to my post


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## notechistiger (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks for your post Jay84. It's not often that you get to hear/read stories like yours, and whilst it might not change peoples' opinions, it certainly allows the opportunity for it.

horserule, you might want to listen to what Jay84 is telling you.


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## Jay84 (Nov 23, 2008)

thankyou notechistiger,

what i wrote is obviously just an overview of mine and my friends story. if i was to go into detail describing everything my eyes would go fuzzy from lookin at the screen and my fingers sore from typing! lol

im interested to read what horserule and shane13 have to reply. if others have opinions or questions please add them


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## Emzie (Nov 23, 2008)

seeing that 'boy' and how he really wanted to be a girl how someone as a perent deny that and let your kid grow up hating life and not fitting in

i think those parents did the right thing for there kid


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## English (Nov 23, 2008)

thanks for sharing Jay84 and i am glad you were honest with yourself and not end up another statistic.. keep it real and stay golden lad - you are more of a man than many i know!


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## waruikazi (Nov 23, 2008)

ajwill said:


> I have a friend whose in her 60s and whose refurbished waterworks are one year older than me - she claims she knew before she started school. Started saving for her surgery with her first job at 16.



Wow i just find that astounding. 

I honestly couldn't imagine how hard being trans would be. Wanting to be something so bad but knowing you'll never truly achieve it. That would be such a hard thing to deal with.


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## waruikazi (Nov 23, 2008)

I'm also astonished that this thread is still going after 10 pages without being locked. Jesus it hasn't even needed a mod to edit any posts! This isn't like APS at all lol. Perhaps there is a chance for world peace ofter all.


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## bundy_zigg (Nov 23, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> That depends if you believe everything is determined by genetics or like me you believe some is determined by genetics and the rest is determined by a childs life experiences and education.


 
I really hope that your kids(if you have any or ever have them) dont turn out to be gay because with an attitude like that they would no dout be turned from the family with pitch forks at their backs!!! shame on you as nearly everyone else has said - narrow minded and nasty.


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## bundy_zigg (Nov 23, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I wonder how many cross dressing kids there are in Iran or Afghanistan or Pakistan ? Or for that matter any islamic country??


 
hahah your kidding right? do some reaserch there are many coltures in history that have wives and male lovers and that dates back to BC!!


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## bundy_zigg (Nov 23, 2008)

good on you for telling us!! thanks.





Jay84 said:


> OK, well after just spending quite some time reading through all the posts to this thread i am going to add my own reply.
> 
> I am an openly gay male, god forbid i offend anyone by being so open about it (Horserule/Shane13)!
> 
> ...


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## -Peter (Nov 23, 2008)

Heres a few truths, apart from the reassignment operati\ion transgender is a physical genetic and chromozonal variation. Its not a psychological condition in the main. Most "other" societies had worked that out a long time ago and you'll find in Indian, Chinese and many other Asian cultures it was not only accepted but a part of general life. Native North American culture also embraced it as a part of life. In Iran and Iraq itwas commonplace for many centuries. In Afghanistan Sir Richard Burton spied by working in a brothel there. There where no women in the brothel.
Transgender is not homosexuality. They are not exclusive but they are not the same thing. ecent studies have shown that homosexuality is also genetic and that it is not necessarily a mutation but a genetic trait that stretches back as far as we do.
Im my life I have met many people who's sexuality is not Fred Nile and the one common thread that binds them is the hostility and hatred they have had to deal with. Often from their own families.
One thing tnat I will always do is leave the path open for my children to be what they are and I will always love them no matter what unless they become clowns then they are on their own.


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## horsesrule (Nov 23, 2008)

Jay84 said:


> OK, well after just spending quite some time reading through all the posts to this thread i am going to add my own reply.
> 
> I am an openly gay male, god forbid i offend anyone by being so open about it (Horserule/Shane13)!
> 
> ...


 

I feel sorry for your family.

I hope you respect them and dont "hold hands in there presence"


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## Retic (Nov 23, 2008)

You have some serious issues.

Thanks Peter, some interesting facts.


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## horsesrule (Nov 23, 2008)

It astonishes me that my views are so offensive to many of you pro gay pro transgender supporters.

The fact of the matter my views are shared by a large population of this country. So if you trully believe i am a one of or a rare type then you need to get out more often.

I have said nothing hatefull, or anything other than a alternative view which for many of you is apperantly narrow minded or "homophobic" but the reality it isnt. 

1. I dont treat people any different regardless of there gender whilst at work, out etc
2. I dont go telling them my views to there faces UNLIKE the alternative
3. I dont have any isssue just an alternative view that many of you dont like
4. The more pro gay pro transgender people try and enforce upon people that our beliefs are wrong the more you are going to get resistance in society


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## horsesrule (Nov 23, 2008)

Rocky said:


> Wow. You truly are a terrible terrible person. What a stupid thing to say. Get a life and open your mind up a little bit.
> How about they respect him and his life style?


 

Not at all terrible, just again an alternative view.

Not at all stupid i empathise with his family.

They clearly do respect him and his lifestyle otherwise they would not continue to talk to him. He needs to respect what he does or who he brings into there private house.

If they dont want that kind of behaviour in there house they are 100% entitled to not have it. Its there house.


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## Rocky (Nov 23, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I feel sorry for your family.
> 
> I hope you respect them and dont "hold hands in there presence"





horsesrule said:


> Not at all terrible, just again an alternative view.
> 
> Not at all stupid i empathise with his family.
> 
> ...




"Alternative view" is one way to put it, I'd put it another way, but i'd be suspended.

You empathize with his family because they put him through hell for something he cannot control? Smart.

It isn't a "kind of behavior" it is a relationship. It may be their house but they are family. Holding hands? Come on. As narrow minded and ignorant as you are, you should know that is ridiculous.


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## horsesrule (Nov 23, 2008)

Rocky said:


> "Alternative view" is one way to put it, I'd put it another way, but i'd be suspended.
> 
> You empathize with his family because they put him through hell for something he cannot control? Smart.
> 
> It isn't a "kind of behavior" it is a relationship. It may be their house but they are family. Holding hands? Come on. As narrow minded and ignorant as you are, you should know that is ridiculous.


 

I empathise with his family because this must have violated all there values and views. And i can relate to that.

It would have been very hard for them to have to deal with.


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## Rocky (Nov 23, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I empathise with his family because this must have violated all there values and views. And i can relate to that.
> 
> It would have been very hard for them to have to deal with.




I am guessing it would have been A LOT harder for him to deal with them, and people like you. This isn't the 1950's, times have changed and people change with them, some people clearly don't change. You seem to have an oldschool/ignorant way of thinking. I suppose you cook all the meals and clean the house by yourself every day? Have the beer opened for the partner when he comes home? You should, it's your beliefs isn't it?


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## llasher (Nov 23, 2008)

> The more pro gay pro transgender people try and enforce upon people that our beliefs are wrong the more you are going to get resistance in society


You are very funny man, horsesrule! Its the 21st century, I don't think anybody really takes you seriously.

True, those people often come doorknocking and try to enforce their views. Trying to get me to go to their bars and join the Rainbow Alliance. Sometimes they do outrageous exhibitions of gayness, like hold hands, in an effort to pollute my mind and convert me. 

And I still am interested to see the statistic that most Australians don't tolerate homosexuality (and please nothing from small pockets of North Qld or the 1950s).

Anyway, I can relate to a lot of this, as I am a young muscly bi adult trapped in the body of a fat middle aged heterosexual.


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## English (Nov 23, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> It astonishes me that my views are so offensive to many of you pro gay pro transgender supporters.
> 
> The fact of the matter my views are shared by a large population of this country. So if you trully believe i am a one of or a rare type then you need to get out more often.
> 
> ...



it is called tolerance - what you previously said before this post was insensitive.

you generalise, you promote hatred and intolerance, and set humanity back a 100 years - yes you are entitled to your opinion but please keep it to yourself if you have nothing nice to say. 

your views are simply offensive and if educated you'd understand that they are homophobic.

i very offended and ashamed... i am sorry that you feel this way - maybe you have been scorned in the past i am not sure.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Nov 23, 2008)

Ok i will make one good reply to this thread
i too em openly lesbian,and yes you could say i cross dress too.I dont wear dresses or make-up and you would be seeing me in boy jeans or tops.
My next door neighbours,bob n doug have been marryed 25 years! and bob one of my grestest heros is a cross dresser! he use to take medication to change his body,his a good man and wouldnt hurt a fly.He was just making himself happy.

My point is these people dont hurt anyone? they are born like this.
My first year in high school i had my nose broken for being gay,i didnt hurt anyone! it was close minded people that hurt me,bashed me,broke my nose.
i remember being alittle kid and just thinking that i would marry a woman,didnt think anything differnt.
My family love me,my friends love me.Im not ashamed of who i em and people shouldnt be.
People cant help the way there born,all there trying to do is live a happy life and not hurt anyone.There not hurting anyone!
I think gays/lesbians make the world a better place.


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## horsesrule (Nov 23, 2008)

English said:


> it is called tolerance - what you previously said before this post was insensitive.
> 
> you generalise, you promote hatred and intolerance, and set humanity back a 100 years - yes you are entitled to your opinion but please keep it to yourself if you have nothing nice to say.
> 
> ...


 
Have not gernalised.
Have shown no hatred at all.
Have shown no intolerance i recall in a few posts saying how what consenting adults do in the privacy of there own home is there own buisnes.
Have not set humanity back at all.
Have not said anything offensive. 

The only factual part of your post is "maybe you have been scorned in the past i am not sure" And you only guessed this part but as i am an honest person yes i have seen this first hand destroy families.

I am the one who has been insulted called names and abused. But hey im the hater right? lol


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## Kirby (Nov 23, 2008)

i work with a lesbian, she is SUCH an incredibly nice normal person, and she's very open about it, she was married, and came out, she's friends with her ex husband, and they still see each other regularly. 

the way she put it was 'its not necessarily being gay, or bi, or straight, its simply falling in love with someone whom you love whole heartedly, it doesnt matter what sex your should mate is. if your both happy, who are YOU to stop US being HAPPY..


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## English (Nov 23, 2008)

Don't fight the love...


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Nov 23, 2008)

lol go english u funny bugger


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## English (Nov 23, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Have not gernalised.
> Have shown no hatred at all.
> Have shown no intolerance i recall in a few posts saying how what consenting adults do in the privacy of there own home is there own buisnes.
> Have not set humanity back at all.
> ...



an eye for eye huh?

can you see it is pointless and you are doing nothing but making yourself worse off?

forgive, maybe not forget... but forgive and think to yourself there and somethings that can't be changed no matter how hurtful - understand that you are the only person who can make positive changes regardless what has happened to you in the past... learn, grow and understand from it... 

maybe look to some therapy (that is said with honesty and respect - I am a social worker) to help you work through some of your issues as they seem to be holding you back. If you PM I would be happy to locate some people in your area if it is something that interests you.


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## Australis (Nov 23, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> It astonishes me that my views are so offensive to many of you pro gay pro transgender supporters.



Im not pro anything, i could care less what people do, geez, but you sounds redneck to me to be honest


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## English (Nov 23, 2008)

reptilegirl_jordan said:


> lol go english u funny bugger



no one has gave me a 'lol' for ages... i need to HIGH FIVE now!


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## horsesrule (Nov 23, 2008)

Anyway back to the matter at hand 

Transgender children,

If born a male but they claim there a female would they not have female DNA? 

Why is it they have the DNA of the sex they were born??


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## palmej (Nov 23, 2008)

its because DNA has nothing to do with it, its something in there brains that is telling them they are in the wrong body. 
It something that they couldnt help even if they wanted to.




horsesrule said:


> Anyway back to the matter at hand
> 
> Transgender children,
> 
> ...


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## horsesrule (Nov 23, 2008)

So if DNA says one thing but the brain says another that sounds like a medical condition to me??

How is it not if you look at it from a scientific approach?


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