# Native Bee Keeping



## vampstorso (Sep 20, 2015)

Does anyone keep native bees?
If so would you care to show photos and some information about your experiences?
Perhaps tips for newbies too?


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## Wokka (Sep 20, 2015)

Native bees are about as big as bush flies and we house a colony of about 5000 in a hive about 200 x 200 x 300mm. I am guessing its too cold to keep them in SA although I am sure there are species suited to colder climates. We have about 10 hives mainly for pollination that live on the mid north coast of NSW .You don,t get much honey- maybe a jar or two each year. We are about to split the hives in a month or so so we'll see how successful they have been. Newcastle is really a bit cold but we are bringing some of the cold climate ones down here to see how they go.


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## vampstorso (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks for the response Wokka,
I've been wondering if external heating as done for herps outside would make it viable,
A long shot I guess but I'm looking into it, certainly not something you want to mess up given the numbers of lives and price per hive


Likewise I'm interested in keeping them for pollination, the veges and fruit tree collection could use some help! Also have a tonne of grevillea as a weird obsession of mine 


I would then assume you must find keeping them enjoyable given you've got a good collection 

Any chance of photos out of curiosity? (Totally understand if not)


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## Wokka (Sep 20, 2015)

It is really my sons passion who is into environmental sustainability. I did a workshop at Bellingen with the native stingless bee guru -Tim Heard which I found very interesting. Like a lot of native wildlife it is a matter of providing habitat and the bees will come. Most native bees are loners rather than living in colonies and like single "burrows" to live in. They can be created by bunching up hollow reeds and straw to create horizontal hollows in which they live and breed. You can drill holes in wood for them to live in. There is lots of information on the net under "stingless native bees" but unfortunately my skills are not sufficient to paste it onto this site.Unfortunately the european bees are taking over the Australian food sources and making it harder for the native inhabitants. I guess that's always the challenge- balancing increased production against diversity. 
As for heating you can heat their box but they need , I think 19C plus to forage so if that's not available they would be stuck in the box with no food. I am sure there would be local cold climate stingless native bees. Let me know how you go finding them.


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## stimigex (Sep 20, 2015)

Trigona Carbonaria will do fine in SA, You will not need to heat them as this could be detrimental to the colony by making it fly when temps are to low and cause deaths from chilling. Colonies are available at times and I can give you contact details of a native keeper if you are interested.

Wokka you couldn't be any more wrong about the European honey be causing problems for the natives, there have been quite a few research projects over the years paid for by the "green" elements and none of the results have been published and finalized as they have been unable to provide any negative effects on native bee populations by European honey bees and in fact on more than one occasion the natives faired a lot better when the European bee was present as the predators fed on the larger easier to catch honey bee.


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## Wokka (Sep 20, 2015)

That surprises me in that it seems logical that any population is limited by its available feed source, and so if you introduce many foreign competitors, particularly those which operates at lower ambient temperatures than the native, then I would have thought that the reduced available food would affect the native population.Added to that commercial bee operations remove tonnes of food from the cycle when harvested by humans. What do the local native bees feed on? Perhaps nature is not always logical. I stand corrected!!


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## vampstorso (Sep 26, 2015)

Well I've taken the plunge and bought some Carbonaria, 
I might just build an extra box lined with foam insulation to sit over the hive and monitor temperatures and take it from there 
A man on YouTube has had success heating them in Victoria for three years so it seems doable if needed. 

Thanks for your input guys, is appreciated 

Hopefully things go well with some good planing as I'd hate for them to pass away.


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## Klaery (Sep 27, 2015)

Im a native bee keeper (as well as _Apis_/honey bees). Any further questions feel free to ask but it seems the others have covered most of it.

I will add though, there are no social stingless bees native to down there and it gets mighty cold in the winter. Most I know (including myself) wont send _T. carbonaria_ much south of Sydney and if I had seen this sooner I would have suggested making something to house the many solitary species that do exist down there. Many of them are very useful, interesting and beautiful little bees 

In saying that, micro-climate is everything and it is done now, guess we will see what happens haha. Stimigex is correct that they don't seem to compete with _Apis_ but I fear the confidence of winter survival is misplaced. 

If you are after more info John Klump has a good book on the basics of native bee keeping and Tim Heard is putting his together and it should be out soon, keep an eye out for hive drawings and photos from some Klaery guy 

You can also find a few websites dedicated to the subject with a quick google search. Mine is a bit bare but Tim Heard, the Zabels, Bob Luttrell and Anne Dollin (aussie bee) all have great websites for info.

You asked for pics so I will throw these out there to start. just a mish mash of what I had on this drive.















_T. carbonaria_ nest entrance covered in cadagi seed.






_T.carbonaria_ carrying cadagi seed after collecting resin.





Syrphid fly (native bee pest) lookin into an old_ Apis_ hive


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## Wokka (Sep 27, 2015)

stimigex said:


> Wokka you couldn't be any more wrong about the European honey be causing problems for the natives, there have been quite a few research projects over the years paid for by the "green" elements and none of the results have been published and finalized as they have been unable to provide any negative effects on native bee populations by European honey bees and in fact on more than one occasion the natives faired a lot better when the European bee was present as the predators fed on the larger easier to catch honey bee.


Are you aware of any completed and released studies to indicate that the increase in Apis honey bees does not effect the native bees. I find it hard to believe that you could substantially increase a population which operates in a wider temperature range, without reducing the available food for native bees.


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## Klaery (Sep 27, 2015)

Wokka said:


> Are you aware of any completed and released studies to indicate that the increase in _Apis_ honey bees does not effect the native bees. I find it hard to believe that you could substantially increase a population which operates in a wider temperature range, without reducing the available food for native bees.



While there are examples that they can negatively impact solitary species - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320704004367 I haven't seen anything suggesting the same for social stingless species. I mean it makes sense that they should, but I just haven't seen it.

Here is a nice example looking at_ Apis_ and Mexican Meliponinae species which are very similar to our own stingless bees - http://www2.fiu.edu/~brayd/Cairns et. al biotropica.pdf 
So again they should have an impact but it isn't seen here either.

There are other studies that skirt around the issue, looking at difference in forage species etc but I haven't seen anything directly linking Australian stingless species success or lack there of when impacted by _Apis_. My own thinking is that Australia is a pretty nectar/pollen rich place with many of our native flora having evolved to be pollinated by mammals and birds. There is a lot to go around  My own experience has been with having yards of both species at densities far above what you would find in nature and seeing no detrimental effects. My bees are still surrounded by bush with both feral honeybees and _Tetragonula_ species. My thoughts are that the limiting factor would be nesting hollows and if there were to be competition, that is where it would be.

My 2c but great discussion topic.


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## vampstorso (Sep 27, 2015)

Hey Klaery, thanks for your reply,
I'd love to give apis a go, however I prefer my husband alive  Otherwise they would've been the obviously easier option in my climate (not easier in other ways of course),
I am also trying to attract solitary bees, but strangely there doesn't seem to be many bees in this area, the more I've been taking notice the fewer I see.
It seems strange given my fruit trees/veges, as well as the neighbours and just general flowers in peoples gardens.


I've purchased my hive from one of the people you've mentioned, I won't 'name names' incase that upsets others in the industry, but it was after discussing potential solutions to the temperature. 
I think spring is a good time to get them and have a chance to 'get it right' before the real weather extremes of summer or winter. 
This gentleman in Melbourne is the successful case I mentioned with artificial heating and also supplemental feed. He is of course the exception rather than the rule, but with equal dedication I'm hoping I can replicate the positive results.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj6vZv6QHkOCb0v08ma_05HvM_YB8Kq9O

I've read all the information online and purchased some books from the bee association, so I guess the rest is good planning and luck beyond that.


Your bee photos are lovely; aren't they charming!
Not so charming is the wasp fly  unfortunately beautiful given what it does to hives.


One thing I can't find information on beyond an initial hive split (keeping them apart then), and will likely find an answer in the books when they arrive later in the week,
but how many hives can you keep in a relatively close proximity?





On the natives vs Apis topic,
perhaps it's because the natives can feed on flowers Apis can't as they're too big, so there's always a supply of food that can't be taken from them?




Thanks for your input again everyone


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## Wokka (Sep 27, 2015)

#vampstorso very interesting utube stuff. Thanks for posting the link.


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## Klaery (Sep 27, 2015)

Yeah Apis need to be managed, which is why I see the flow hive being a major disappointment for a lot of people.

If it was one of those names then I am sure they sussed out the situation and will help you along. If you are feeding then heating should work  Going with the little t-piece film canister feeder? I will have to check out that Victorian chaps vids, sounds very interesting.



vampstorso said:


> One thing I can't find information on beyond an initial hive split (keeping them apart then), and will likely find an answer in the books when they arrive later in the week,
> but how many hives can you keep in a relatively close proximity?



As many as you want as long as they can get back to/identify their hive. They fight and from time to time you may have a strong hive overtake a weak one, but hey, stronger bees 

Wild rescue _T. carbonaria_,_ T. carbonaria_ boxed hive and _T. hokingsi_ boxed hive. Ideally I wouldn't have them thiiiis close but all natives at my actual house are like this as available shade is a limiting factor.


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## vampstorso (Sep 27, 2015)

I've just started watching this so haven't seen it all yet but this also mentions heating 
https://youtu.be/2rCeTwyVmik


Thanks for the extra info and photos  
I can just imagine if it's successful over two years or so Ill likely get addicted and want more lol

- - - Updated - - -

Klaery, 
If you don't mind my asking, what lens do you use to photograph your bees?


I have a DSLR but no macro lenses, 
With a newborn I'm feeling a bit lazy for researching them lol


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## Klaery (Sep 27, 2015)

Tamron 90mm macro, occasionally with extension tubes. Can't beat the quality for the price  works great as an every day lens too.

One thing though. I use a full frame slr (d700) and often wish I had got the 150mm sigma macro instead for the extra reach. Extra dollars though. If you use crop sensor it obviously gives you more reach, I used a d90 when I first got it and it was perfect.


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## vampstorso (Sep 27, 2015)

Thank you  
I have the D7100 so will look into it, 
It's been neglected lately so will be nice to bust it out 


Annnnnd I just realized the strange looking gumtree on the foothpath out the front of my house is a cadagi tree by the looks of it 
Great...already thought it was the ugliest gum I'd ever seen


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## vampstorso (Jul 21, 2016)

The carbonaria are doing great since their purchase in October. 
We've had three warm days this week and they've been going absolutely mental. Lots of nectar and pollen being collected too. 
I think they're going to smash this whole living in Adelaide thing with minimal interference. 
So stoked. I love them lol. 


I also purchased an Apis hive recently as it turns out hubby isn't allergic to them... He was just attacked by wasps once and needed the ER due to so many stings. Only to discover I'm more afraid of them than initially expected. 
I plan to suit up again later today and just watch them to start with vs getting too involved until I calm down. 


It's quite funny really."No Kris, bees are lovely creatures who are calm and I'm not getting rid of them.... OH MY GOD A BEE! "


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## muzza72 (Jul 21, 2016)




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