# Oenpelli Python



## saratoga (Aug 29, 2011)

A friend emailed me this photo recently.....somewhere in the Arnhemland escarpement.

Apparently it looked to be in excess of 3m.


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## gillsy (Aug 29, 2011)

Very nice, is he a reptile person who can appreciate what it means to see one of these guys?


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## Kurto (Aug 29, 2011)

That is Awesome!!


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## viridis (Aug 29, 2011)

That is awesome Saratoga, thanks for sharing the pic. I have a 12 foot Scrubby that basks most mornings in winter in a tree just outside my patio. It's resting position looks almost identical to that O.P


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## Scleropages (Aug 29, 2011)

Nice big snake


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## SamNabz (Aug 29, 2011)

Great find


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## reptilian1924 (Aug 29, 2011)

Saratoga, that is awesome thanks for sharing your photo of a Oenpelli Python, which is something that we don't get to see that often.

l know that in the not to distant future, the Oenpelli will become available to private reptile collectors, but they wont be cheap to buy at the beginning let me tell you.

l cannot tell you who will be breeding them that is very private and confidential, so please don't even think about asking me who it is that will have access to the Oenpelii Python's.


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## Greenmad (Aug 29, 2011)

Thats is awesome thanks for sharing.


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## Serpentess (Aug 29, 2011)

*jaw drops*
Such a rare specimen to see on the APS forums, and anywhere else. 
Thank you for posting, it's a beauty.


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## waruikazi (Aug 29, 2011)

If your friend has been looking for any less than 2 years then i feel like punching him in the ovaries! 

Very jealous mate! And very noble of your friend to share that picture, thanks for posting! Now wait for the PMs to start flooding in!


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## saratoga (Aug 29, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If your friend has been looking for any less than 2 years then i feel like punching him in the ovaries!



He wasn't even looking for them.....perhaps you should take up birding....that's how it was found!

I'm wondering how many people have checked the metadata for GPS tagging???.........BTW it's a screen shot so locality remains safe!

The photo is a couple of weeks old now. Glad to see that good sized Oenpellis are still around....I haven't heard of one for a long time although I'm no longer hanging around those parts.


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## waruikazi (Aug 29, 2011)

saratoga said:


> He wasn't even looking for them.....perhaps you should take up birding....that's how it was found!
> 
> I'm wondering how many people have checked the metadata for GPS tagging???.........BTW it's a screen shot so locality remains safe!



The ammount of times i get into the escarpment i recon i should have lucked one by now!


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## solar 17 (Aug 29, 2011)

_*What a "great pic" thanks for sharing.
..............solar 17(Baden)*_


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## eipper (Aug 29, 2011)

reptilian1933 said:


> Saratoga, that is awesome thanks for sharing your photo of a Oenpelli Python, which is something that we don't get to see that often.
> 
> l know that in the not to distant future, the Oenpelli will become available to private reptile collectors, but they wont be cheap to buy at the beginning let me tell you.
> 
> l cannot tell you who will be breeding them that is very private and confidential, so please don't even think about asking me who it is that will have access to the Oenpelii Python's and is breeding them.



Les,

I reckon there is two chances in hell that you know someone breeding Oenpellis.....might have to start calling you Norman

Cheers,
Scott

Greg,

Awesome work by your mate, hopefully when you get up that way you can replicate it!!!

Cheers,
Scott


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## waruikazi (Aug 29, 2011)

Soooooo... Who's gonna be breeding them?



reptilian1933 said:


> Saratoga, that is awesome thanks for sharing your photo of a Oenpelli Python, which is something that we don't get to see that often.
> 
> l know that in the not to distant future, the Oenpelli will become available to private reptile collectors, but they wont be cheap to buy at the beginning let me tell you.
> 
> l cannot tell you who will be breeding them that is very private and confidential, so please don't even think about asking me who it is that will have access to the Oenpelii Python's and is breeding them.


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## ssssmithy (Aug 29, 2011)

they should never have been taken from peter krauss. hard species to keep and breed so he tells me,alot of effort went into them. it will be great to see them back into the industry again!
great find mate. and a good pic too! 
smithy


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## Wally (Aug 29, 2011)

Great pic saratoga. Nice to see one located.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Aug 29, 2011)

Great photo! Thanks for sharing!

As far as Oenpelli breeding goes, I'm sure if the breeder wanted people dropping hints on here etc, he'd post things himself. If you know him, cool, but respect his damn privacy!


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## smacdonald (Aug 29, 2011)

saratoga said:


> Apparently it looked to be in excess of 3m.


 
3m? Just a baby, then. They're not that hard to find if you know what you're doing.


Stewart


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

Turn it up Stuart! 

Dumb luck seems to be the prerequisite!



reptilesDownUnder said:


> 3m? Just a baby, then. They're not that hard to find if you know what you're doing.
> 
> 
> Stewart


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## saratoga (Aug 30, 2011)

A mate of mine has seen 26 in the wild, and yes just about all luck combined with spending a lot of time in the right sort of areas! The few times he has actually been looking for them he has never found them.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 30, 2011)

reptilian1933 said:


> Saratoga, that is awesome thanks for sharing your photo of a Oenpelli Python, which is something that we don't get to see that often.
> 
> l know that in the not to distant future, the Oenpelli will become available to private reptile collectors, but they wont be cheap to buy at the beginning let me tell you.
> 
> l cannot tell you who will be breeding them that is very private and confidential, so please don't even think about asking me who it is that will have access to the Oenpelii Python's.



Ahh Les, you can't help yourself can you? Clearly, if we want to keep anything "private and confidential" it's best not to tell even you ! I doubt very much whether anyone will quiz you about Oenpellis. If your post was simply to big-note yourself... it hasn't worked!

Jamie



saratoga said:


> A mate of mine has seen 26 in the wild, and yes just about all luck combined with spending a lot of time in the right sort of areas! The few times he has actually been looking for them he has never found them.



Gee, he must hold the world record. I'm sure many of the world's most experienced field herpetologists who haven't had any luck in the past 5 years would love to get out there with him! Must be an amazing man!

Jamie


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

There was a time when you can say this animal's name and a great discussion would follow. I guess those days are gone...


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## SamNabz (Aug 30, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> There was a time when you can say this animal's name and a great discussion would follow. I guess those days are gone...



Ah come on, don't be like that Gordo. We were just mucking around.

I would gladly sit here and read what anyone has to say about this magnificent species.

However, I don't think it will be any different to what has been said over the years:


Can't own them
Krauss bred them successfully but they were snatched off him by parks officers
Some are allegedly being kept illegally in private collections
Taronga Zoo had a pair which died due to them being 'prone' to stress
TWP had one which they paraded around the country to different expos that died of apparent stress related causes
Everyone who has approached parks to obtain a permit to collect some specimens has been declined/rejected despite locals giving them the go-ahead
 Am I missing any thing? It would be great to know if any one has actually been successful (no names need to be mentioned) in obtaining a permit to collect these beauties..


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

Yeah you are.

there was one permit issued once for one day.


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## Dipcdame (Aug 30, 2011)

saratoga said:


> I'm wondering how many people have checked the metadata for GPS tagging???.........BTW it's a screen shot so locality remains safe!
> 
> The photo is a couple of weeks old now. Glad to see that good sized Oenpellis are still around....I haven't heard of one for a long time although I'm no longer hanging around those parts.



...... I think I recognise that tree!!


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## Waterrat (Aug 30, 2011)

I would like to know what is the phenomenal attraction about this species. Everybody would want one (or 5).

I am not saying they are not attractive but all that fuss about what looks like an overgrown Childrens' python, too big to keep unless you're a scrubby _et al_. person, nothing is known about their ecology ....... and so on. As far as the "looks" go, surely a BHP, jungle carpet, diamond (not to mention GTP) are far better looking snakes. ???
Is it the rarity? The potential price for any offspring? Prestige? Just wonder.


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## alrightknight (Aug 30, 2011)

I didnt know much about the snakes, so I did a bit of reading and it seems that they are a species considered vunerable. If this is the case why not issue a permit to one or two very experienced breeders to help increase there population through captive breeding. or "conservation through captive propagation" as its known as. It looks as if the biggest problems is people illegally collecting them, so breeding could take the pressure of wild specimens as well as give us a chance to properly study them?


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## Jeffa (Aug 30, 2011)

So what happened?
Couldnt find any in that day?
Not enough time to organise a search party? 
Or possibly some success that nobody knows about?


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

alrightknight said:


> I didnt know much about the snakes, so I did a bit of reading and it seems that they are a species considered vunerable. If this is the case why not issue a permit to one or two very experienced breeders to help increase there population through captive breeding. or "conservation through captive propagation" as its known as. It looks as if the biggest problems is people illegally collecting them, so breeding could take the pressure of wild specimens as well as give us a chance to properly study them?



There's alot of people wondering exactly that.



Jeffa said:


> So what happened? *Nothing*
> Couldnt find any in that day? *nope*
> Not enough time to organise a search party? *Nope*
> Or possibly some success that nobody knows about? *nope!*


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## Jeffa (Aug 30, 2011)

To me its all about the preservation of the species.

I agree Michael, they do not look that flash and apparently stress alot, be we need to set up breeding programmes to protect threatened species.
I couldnt give a fart if some bloke bred these guys and wanted 100 grand a pop, for me its the satisfaction that they may be given a second chane if the wild population gets wiped out.


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't want any, i just want to get out and find one.



Waterrat said:


> I would like to know what is the phenomenal attraction about this species. Everybody would want one (or 5).
> 
> I am not saying they are not attractive but all that fuss about what looks like an overgrown Childrens' python, too big to keep unless you're a scrubby _et al_. person, nothing is known about their ecology ....... and so on. As far as the "looks" go, surely a BHP, jungle carpet, diamond (not to mention GTP) are far better looking snakes. ???
> Is it the rarity? The potential price for any offspring? Prestige? Just wonder.


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## Waterrat (Aug 30, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> To me its all about the preservation of the species.
> 
> I agree Michael, they do not look that flash and apparently stress alot, be we need to set up breeding programmes to protect threatened species.



You, Gordo (myself) and a handful of others have different approach to the species - we don't want any. But it seems that 500 other members here just want one.


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> You, Gordo (myself) and a handful of others have different approach to the species - we don't want any. But it seems that 500 other members here just want one.



Well i'll qualify my lack of want for any. If i could make a whole stack of untaxed, or taxed, cash out of them i'd be keen for a few. But i don't think there will be too many people to make any money out of them at all, let alone break even.


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## Waterrat (Aug 30, 2011)

The same thing here. I would do it for the money, not because Oenpelli python is something I want to have in my collection. I would also ask for a government support, financial and in kind, to set up a holding and breeding facility that I (not them) would consider good enough to ensure success.


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## Jeffa (Aug 30, 2011)

If even one of the 500 members (reputable of course) is legally able to obtain a couple of pairs and breed these guys and have sucess with a consevation plan and potentially down the track bring these guys into captivity, (not that I want one) then take my hat off and bow I will.


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## Wally (Aug 30, 2011)

I have no interest in them becoming available to the hobby. My interest lies in the odd sighting of them. Mystique is everything with these pythons.


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## -Katana- (Aug 30, 2011)

I was under the impression that the Oenpelli python grew to be as large as a Scrub python.
That's a whole lot of python to take on.
With all due respect to the scrub python breeders I think in the coming years we are going to see a lot of scrub pythons abandoned or sold for ridiculous prices as people who brought hatchlings suddenly have to contend with a huge, unpredictable, voracious python that they have seriously underestimated their capacity to house, feed and manage.
I'd hate to see that be the Oenpelli python's lot if it became available to recreational keepers.


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## GeckPhotographer (Aug 30, 2011)

> I have no interest in them becoming available to the hobby. My interest lies in the odd sighting of them. Mystique is everything with these pythons.



As long as they don't become so mysterious we define it as extinct. I would love to see one but I am not a python man of any kind so I doubt I would ever want to own one.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Aug 30, 2011)

would be good to see a captive insurance population established


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## Wally (Aug 30, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> As long as they don't become so mysterious we define it as extinct.



It's a valid point GP, and one I certainly acknowledge. If their status was better understood more educated opinions could be formed.


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

Honestly i don't think they are under threat of extinction. They are listed as vunerable atm because there is a inferred decline in their numbers, but even the folk who have listed them this way say that there is little evidence for this decline.


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## Jeffa (Aug 30, 2011)

But what are there numbers? 
How often are they encountered? 
How many different seperate locations are these guys found? If we had a huge fire season followed by a very small couple of wet seasons and prior to this this an influx of the dreaded toad population found in the escarpments that these guys are endemic to, would this potentially put these guys as extremely vunerable, or perhaps extinct? 
This is something we can no longer gamble on. (vunerable species need to be protected at all costs).


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## saratoga (Aug 30, 2011)

There is good reason to worry.

Since the arrival of toads there have been changes to the relative abundance of several snake species.

The plummeting mammal populations in the top end is a big worry to a mammal feeder like this snake.

The increasing occurrence of wildfires in and around the escarpment of the Top End may have a direct impact on some individuals, but more likely will have an impact on its the availability of its prey.

To wait for evidence of a decline in numbers in a species which is rarely encountered may be just too late.

Best to err on the side of caution.


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## snakeluvver (Aug 30, 2011)

I'd be interested to see one, but I wouldnt keep one I dont see too much appeal.


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## Chris (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't know what all the fuss is about, same with Scrubbies.... to each their own I guess.


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## SamNabz (Aug 30, 2011)

Chris_D said:


> I don't know what all the fuss is about, same with Scrubbies.... to each their own I guess.



It's personal preference Chris.

For example, I would *never* own a beardie as I don't like the look of them, however, you would and do own them because you like them and everything about them.


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## reptilian1924 (Aug 30, 2011)

l myself have never really been that interested in keeping Oenpelii Python's, to me they just look like a giant Children's Python, if l was offered a pair l most likely would say no thanks, go and sell or offer them to someone else who is more interested in keeping and breeding them.

Who would want to keep a Oenpelii Python just because they are so rare in captivity, and they are so big like a Scrub Python l personaly wouldn't, no-way would l pay 10's of thousands of Dollars for 1 or a pair

l would much prefer to keep and breed Olive - Woma - Black-Headed Python's, l just find these 3 far more interesting to keep, its each and everyone to their own on what they like and don't like to keep as a pet Python.


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## Inkage (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm partial to big snakes, I'd keep them given the opportunity.


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## Nighthawk (Aug 30, 2011)

I'd snap one up if I could, but I'd be happy just to see one as well. Personally I think they're gorgeous, yeah they may look like an 'overgrown children's python', but they have a subtle, understated beauty about them. 
I'm not ashamed to say it... WANT.


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## Octane (Aug 30, 2011)

I would get immense enjoyment out of seeing one of these pythons in the wild and plan to go looking for one or two. Hopefully in the not too distant future. 

Although I am not really a big python person I would like to keep one of these animals just observe and learn - they just really fascinate me.


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## MathewB (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm sorry but can someone please tell me what all the fuss is about with this species? Maybe a dumb question but, yeah


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## AUSGECKO (Aug 30, 2011)

MathewB said:


> I'm sorry but can someone please tell me what all the fuss is about with this species? Maybe a dumb question but, yeah


 
We all want what we can't have.


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## waruikazi (Aug 31, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> But what are there numbers? _Estimated to be between 5000 and 10 000 by John Woinarski._
> How often are they encountered? _I've been looking for 2 years in known locations about 4 times a week (on average) and still haven't found one. A mate has been looking for 8 years in known locations and hasn't found one. But i do know of 3 verifiable findings since 2008._
> How many different seperate locations are these guys found? _The escarpment and it's outliers from Oenpelli south level with Pine Creek. _If we had a huge fire season followed by a very small couple of wet seasons and prior to this this an influx of the dreaded toad population found in the escarpments that these guys are endemic to, would this potentially put these guys as extremely vunerable, or perhaps extinct? _IF, BUT, WHEN???? Lots of hypotheticals there! No one knows. It might even turn out to be good for these guys (probably not but that's how little we know about the West Arnhem escarpment country)! _
> This is something we can no longer gamble on. (vunerable species need to be protected at all costs).



So while we're trying to save this snake (which may or may not be at risk), who's gonna look after the Gove Crow butterfly? Which is Nationally listed as an endangered species. Not Like this snake, which is only listed as vulnerable in the NT. 

PS. Don't take me too seriously.


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## Jeffa (Aug 31, 2011)

John has estimated there to be around 5 to 10 thousand, and you have only heard of three verifed sightings in a few years?
And you and a mate have been looking alot for these guys in the last several years and not seen one? Is there any up to date report on these numbers?

And animal that is threatened should have some conservation plan put in place (in a perfect world)

P.s 
all good mate, I hope i am not coming across as a keyboard nazi

Cheers for all the info.


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## Waterrat (Aug 31, 2011)

I can't speak for the NT wildlife authorities but in Qld, a conservation plan means - "it's in a protected area, therefore it's safe. Keeping it there is the conservation plan". Pretty pathetic.


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## waruikazi (Aug 31, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> John has estimated there to be around 5 to 10 thousand, and you have only heard of three verifed sightings in a few years?
> And you and a mate have been looking alot for these guys in the last several years and not seen one? Is there any up to date report on these numbers?
> 
> And animal that is threatened should have some conservation plan put in place (in a perfect world)
> ...



Yes but most of their range is totally inaccesible by anything except a helicopter. 

There have been no wild studies done on their numbers.


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## saratoga (Aug 31, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Yes but most of their range is totally inaccesible by anything except a helicopter.



and toads, wildfire, weeds etc!

We have no idea what goes on in this remote country.

5K to 10K is nothing but a wild guess( I have no idea what this would be based on) considering nothing has been done on the population ecology of this snake.


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## Slickturtle (Sep 1, 2011)

Beautifully said Saratoga. It is also what the Federal Environmental Conservation Act (the EPBC) says, and the Kakadu Plan of Management. This means that the Government agrees with you too!

Slickturtle


saratoga said:


> There is good reason to worry.
> 
> Since the arrival of toads there have been changes to the relative abundance of several snake species.
> 
> ...


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## Jeffa (Sep 1, 2011)

Good. 
then all those adamant about this future wellbeing of this unique species say I.

All the rest that want the species in captivity for your personal gain say NI.

There, I said it..


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## Waterrat (Sep 1, 2011)

Slickturtle said:


> Beautifully said Saratoga. It is also what the Federal Environmental Conservation Act (the EPBC) says, and the Kakadu Plan of Management. This means that the Government agrees with you too!
> 
> Slickturtle



Isn't it nice! Lets hope that the Government agrees more and faster.


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## Slickturtle (Sep 1, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> So while we're trying to save this snake (which may or may not be at risk), who's gonna look after the Gove Crow butterfly? Which is Nationally listed as an endangered species. Not Like this snake, which is only listed as vulnerable in the NT.
> 
> PS. Don't take me too seriously.



Hi Gordo

The Gove Crow is not so rare. Parks and Wildlife were recently taken to a place in NE Almondland where they are as common as armpits. They might be taken off the Threatened Species list.

With your comments in red you have not included a reason why a captive breeding colony of OP's should not be established? Have you heard of the Precautionary Principle as it is used in the EPBC and the Kakadu Plan of Management?

Over to you ......

Slickturtle

Hi Jeff

There is no reason that the two don't overlap totally. The people trying to get this sp. into captivity hope to achieve both - and why not. Everybody benefits in the end - even the Oenpelli Python. 

In fact, the more people who have them the better the conservation outcome. This is because you will get a better spread of genetic attributes in a bigger captive population, less risk of captive animals being knocked out by a building fire or a disease and more stock to carry out a reintroduction program if ever the adverse environmental element that is squeezing them is fixed.

Cheers

Slickturtle



Jeffa said:


> Good.
> then all those adamant about this future wellbeing of this unique species say I.
> 
> All the rest that want the species in captivity for your personal gain say NI.
> ...


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## Jeffa (Sep 1, 2011)

See your point, but will take along time for these guys to become available to the general herp maket.
From my understanding(correct me if I am wrong), these guys stress alot and are not for the average tom, Dick and Harry (including myself). First things first, get these guys into a breeding program and down the track once these guys have a sustainable back up population and recreational keepers have and want to adjust to these requirements then go ahead.

One step at a time.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 1, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> See your point, but will take along time for these guys to become available to the general herp maket.
> From my understanding(correct me if I am wrong), these guys stress alot and are not for the average tom, Dick and Harry (including myself). First things first, get these guys into a breeding program and down the track once these guys have a sustainable back up population and recreational keepers have and want to adjust to these requirements then go ahead.
> 
> One step at a time.



I don't think enough is known about them to make broad statements like that - there hasn't been enough in captivity to generalise. And captive-bred stuff is almost universally more stable in captivity than wild-caught animals. John Weigel had probs with his w/c Roughies, but look at them now, after just a few years...

Jamie


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## Jeffa (Sep 1, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I don't think enough is known about them to make broad statements like that - there hasn't been enough in captivity to generalise. And captive-bred stuff is almost universally more stable in captivity than wild-caught animals. John Weigel had probs with his w/c Roughies, but look at them now, after just a few years...
> 
> Jamie



So what do you sugest? Give them to anyone and hope, prey that certain idividuals (reputable known in the industry) are wrong and that these guys can and will have a great life with Tom, Dick and Harry after little experience? They need a proper programme in place to observe their natural wellbeing, captivity lifestyle and possible gain captive enviroments . 
(patience) 

I am not saying these guys should be unavailable in years to come, we just need to learn more about the lifestyle patterns and set up a breeding programme to support the wellbeing and continued existance of the species.
WHATS THE PROBLEM?


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## waruikazi (Sep 2, 2011)

Slickturtle said:


> Hi Gordo
> 
> The Gove Crow is not so rare. Parks and Wildlife were recently taken to a place in NE Almondland where they are as common as armpits. They might be taken off the Threatened Species list.
> 
> ...



Wonderful to see you here again Greg!

There is nothing wrong with wanting them in captivity! And i would love to see anybody who wants to own them to have that opportunity, from legal captive bred stock. I am personally indifferent about owning them, but i don't see why other people shouldn't be allowed to. 

That is good news about the Gove Crow. Almost lends support to my idea that we know a whole lot of nothing when it comes to cryptic animals in remote locations and we need to invest some time and effort into the field. It's unfortunate that the wildlife authorities don't seem to agree and appear to be blocking these efforts!



Jeffa said:


> So what do you sugest? Give them to anyone and hope, *prey that certain idividuals (reputable known in the industry) are wrong and that these guys can and will have a great life with Tom, Dick and Harry after little experience?* They need a proper programme in place to observe their natural wellbeing, captivity lifestyle and possible gain captive enviroments .
> (patience)
> 
> I am not saying these guys should be unavailable in years to come, we just need to learn more about the lifestyle patterns and set up a breeding programme to support the wellbeing and continued existance of the species.
> WHATS THE PROBLEM?



Be careful, you are speaking to escarpment country royalty here! Greg has only kept 3 or 4 drop bears amongst everything else, i think he is in a relatively uniqe position to say we don't know that they will be that difficult.

Sorry Jeffa, it appears i was reading the wrong user names. Jamie isn't royalty, in these parts anyway!


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## Waterrat (Sep 2, 2011)

We had a chat with Peter K. just last week and he said, if was to give an advice, it would be " don't fuss about them too much, treat them just like any other python". But we agreed that the location of the breeding facility should be of some consideration. Just because John W. successfully bred RSPs in Gosford, doesn't mean that such "exotic" location would be ideal for OPs.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 2, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> So what do you sugest? Give them to anyone and hope, prey that certain idividuals (reputable known in the industry) are wrong and that these guys can and will have a great life with Tom, Dick and Harry after little experience? They need a proper programme in place to observe their natural wellbeing, captivity lifestyle and possible gain captive enviroments .
> (patience)
> 
> I am not saying these guys should be unavailable in years to come, we just need to learn more about the lifestyle patterns and set up a breeding programme to support the wellbeing and continued existance of the species.
> WHATS THE PROBLEM?



Who said there's a problem? Not me. I know nothing of the species except that it has had a dismal track record in captivity. The MAJOR reason for this was the removal of the animals from the care of Peter Krauss, who "owned" them and therefore gave them the best attention someone of his experience could, and their placement into a government facility, where nobody "owns" them, and therefore nobody has ultimate responsibilty for them.

The reason for this dismal track record may not be because the species is any more difficult that any other, it may just be because the animals were removed from the care of an expert who actually bred them, and placed into a facility where expertise and/or decision-making were obviously lacking. It's not the first instance of bureaucratic bungling, and it won't be the last.

By the way - where did I say that Oenpellis (at least the first cabs off the rank) could go to any "Tom, Dick or Harry?" Never suggested it, never would...

Jamie



Waterrat said:


> We had a chat with Peter K. just last week and he said, if was to give an advice, it would be " don't fuss about them too much, treat them just like any other python". But we agreed that the location of the breeding facility should be of some consideration. Just because John W. successfully bred RSPs in Gosford, doesn't mean that such "exotic" location would be ideal for OPs.



I doubt that location is too critical, but I wasn't suggesting that they go to Gosford either. There are lots of GTP breeders who do good work in northern Europe, and even Alaska, and it seems that with an understanding of the environmental needs of a species, it can be bred almost anywhere. I'm with PK in the belief that they may not be as "difficult" as experience suggests, if only because the sample size we've had so far is too small to make an objective assessment.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Sep 2, 2011)

Lets face it, all the Toms Dicks and Harrys will have to wait a long, long time to even have a sniff of these pythons. First, permits must be issued, 2/ the animals (pairs that is) have to be located and collected, 3/ they may have to reach sexual maturity if not mature already, 4/ successful breeding, incubation, neonate feeding, etc., 5/ this CB generation has to mature and breed 5/ step 4 repeated, 5/ the progeny will be spit into two independent populations as a security measure, 6/ Tom, Dick and Harry will have their hair dyed because they won't look too flash grey.


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## Slickturtle (Sep 2, 2011)

*About keeping OP's.*

I have only kept a few and found them easy provided you had the right food. (But I agree that not everybody can walk outside and blow a few flying foxes out of a tree to feed them.) But this is typical of wild caught animals. It would not take long to switch them over to normal food. As for comparing them to Scrubbies - I have worked with lots of scrubbies (unpredictable and bad tempered - a lot of them - in my view) but i never had an OP attempt to bite even when newly caught and being force handled as in the photo. I reckon they are gentle giants. I wonder if PK found that as well?


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## Nighthawk (Sep 2, 2011)

AUSGECKO said:


> We all want what we can't have.



I can't speak for everyone else, but this statement always irks me. There's a difference between 'wanting what you can't have' and getting enjoyment out of something despite the fact you can't own it. Personally I don't care if I can't own one, I'm pretty relaxed about it actually, I'd love a boelen's python and a retic and an anaconda but I can't own those either. I also love lions and tigers, and ocelots make me utterly drool (can't stand house cats though, go figure...), but I'd never ever dream of taking one out of the wild.
Given the opportunity, yes, I would love to own an OP. They're beautiful, I love the subtle markings, and apparently they have gorgeous natures. Unfortunately I can't own one, and I wouldn't dream of it until enough research has been done to ensure I'm giving it the proper care. Given the conflicting nature of arguments based around their care, I'd say that won't happen for a long long time. Until then I'll just stroke my little childreni and dream that it's a lot bigger than it is 
Totally just had a 'grow up' moment with the last sentence there, hem hem...


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## tropicbreeze (Sep 2, 2011)

Looks like those sleeves on that shirt have cleaned up really well with Photoshop :lol:


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## Red-Ink (Sep 2, 2011)

I'd be happy just to see one in the flesh even if it's in a prefessional establishment like a zoo. Seeing one out in the wild would just be phenomenal, then again being a Victorian seeing any python in the wild is phenomenal.


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## Slickturtle (Sep 2, 2011)

That is a beautifully worded post Nighthawk. An excellent post IMO. It is Snow Leopards that do it for me - like this one I took through the wire at Melbourne Zoo. I Should I apologise for putting a mere mammal on this forum?!
View attachment 216159


Cheers

Slick


Nighthawk said:


> I can't speak for everyone else, but this statement always irks me. There's a difference between 'wanting what you can't have' and getting enjoyment out of something despite the fact you can't own it. Personally I don't care if I can't own one, I'm pretty relaxed about it actually, I'd love a boelen's python and a retic and an anaconda but I can't own those either. I also love lions and tigers, and ocelots make me utterly drool (can't stand house cats though, go figure...), but I'd never ever dream of taking one out of the wild.
> Given the opportunity, yes, I would love to own an OP. They're beautiful, I love the subtle markings, and apparently they have gorgeous natures. Unfortunately I can't own one, and I wouldn't dream of it until enough research has been done to ensure I'm giving it the proper care. Given the conflicting nature of arguments based around their care, I'd say that won't happen for a long long time. Until then I'll just stroke my little childreni and dream that it's a lot bigger than it is
> Totally just had a 'grow up' moment with the last sentence there, hem hem...


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## -Peter (Sep 2, 2011)

It will have to be me then, I can supply the bats. As long as the rest of the wildlife rehab group don't cotton on.


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## grimbeny (Sep 2, 2011)

In the famous words of Greg Miles "I used to think captive breeding of endangered animals wasnt a conservation plan but an extinction prevention plan, then I realised my definition of conservation was wrong."

I am all for the keeping of this species in captivity because;

A-it wont cause wild populations any harm 

and 

B-they are a little bit novel

But keeping this species in captivity will only serve to stop them from going extinct, it will not do anything for conserving the species in any wild sense.


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 2, 2011)

Awesome photo Slick. They look like they would be very quick should the need arise. How recent is that photo? 
I Recall a similar photo only with a big Mulga.


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## cement (Sep 2, 2011)

Slickturtle said:


> I reckon they are gentle giants. I wonder if PK found that as well?
> 
> 
> A friend was able to see and handle PK's OP's and told me they were exactly that. Big and tame.
> Whether i ever owned them or not, i would absolutely love to see at least someone keeping them.


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## viridis (Sep 5, 2011)

cement said:


> Slickturtle said:
> 
> 
> > I reckon they are gentle giants. I wonder if PK found that as well?
> ...


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## Nighthawk (Sep 5, 2011)

Well said Viridis.


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## Bushman (Sep 5, 2011)

viridis said:


> ...
> In regards to keeping them legally...............................For me it would be a case of the seller / Government department naming their price. I would pay anything for a chance to own these snakes.
> 
> Prestige......Not likely as I would not want anyone to know I had them. It is about grass roots reptile keeping where you keep, study and try to breed a species that you find amazing.
> ...


Very well said Nick. I echo the sentiments expressed here. Like you, I consider myself a researcher rather than a keeper. Passion has no price and discovery is its own reward. 

I personally see the dollar value placed on herps in Australia's recent history to be an (almost) necessary evil. Amatuer herpers in Australia now have relatively easy, legal access to most species that interest them. 
I love field work above all else but valuable contributions to herpetology are made by studying reptiles in captivity as well.


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## Waterrat (Sep 5, 2011)

viridis said:


> cement said:
> 
> 
> > All this talk about Peter's being tame, and no fuss required??????????????????????? Perhaps you guys are talking about different animals to the O.P's that were flighty, finiky feeders that Peter spent many many hours with trying to get them settled and than established????????????????????????????????????????
> ...


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## Bushman (Sep 5, 2011)

I think that Jamie made a good point earlier in regards to our collective experience of this species being too small to make any meaningful generalizations...


Pythoninfinite said:


> I don't think enough is known about them to make broad statements like that - there hasn't been enough in captivity to generalise. And captive-bred stuff is almost universally more stable in captivity than wild-caught animals. John Weigel had probs with his w/c Roughies, but look at them now, after just a few years...
> 
> Jamie


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Sep 5, 2011)

reptilian1933 said:


> Saratoga, that is awesome thanks for sharing your photo of a Oenpelli Python, which is something that we don't get to see that often.
> 
> l know that in the not to distant future, the Oenpelli will become available to private reptile collectors, but they wont be cheap to buy at the beginning let me tell you.
> 
> l cannot tell you who will be breeding them that is very private and confidential, so please don't even think about asking me who it is that will have access to the Oenpelii Python's.


I heard that they were going to be somewhere in the 5 figure range pricewise


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## Waterrat (Sep 5, 2011)

SpilotaFreak78 said:


> I heard that they were going to be somewhere in the 5 figure range pricewise



I heard they were going to be exactly $75,365.- in the year 2014. Trust me, I am in the "know". :lol:


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## viridis (Sep 5, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I heard they were going to be exactly $75,365.- in the year 2014. Trust me, I am in the "know". :lol:



You seem to know everything else!


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 5, 2011)

OP were non aggressive in captivity ?
Sounds like they were stressed or over handled.

OP were poor feeders ? sounds like stress .

OP only produced one clutch in captivity ?
Sounds like stress ,
resulting in not enough food intake for the female to reproduce more than once .

Who ever gets the chance to try and breed these pythons had better not stress them out.
IE touch them at all.
Just put them in a suitable enclosures.And leave them be.
Offer food and water and clean enclosures.
But never touch them.
Males must be kept seperate untill breeding season.
Keeping pythons together can result in stress that can have effects on a pythons ability to thrive in captivity ,. 
I doubt OP breeding programme will be success the Roughies were .
The Roughies did thrive but what about the hyper darwin ?
2 different projects and 2 very different results ?
And it could be considered a wild caught darwin carpet would be the easier to breed ?

I only mention the above in a hope that who ever gets the OP breeding programme pays attention to what i wrote.
Stress is the course of any wild pythons failure to thrive in captivity.
SIGNS OF STRESS.
NOT AGGRESSIVE AND POOR FEEDING RESPONCE.
In most cases the stressed python will only feed well enough to stay alive but then they are very succeptable to many ailments , etc.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 5, 2011)

PK's sample size of 2 animals is WAY too small to generalise about a species. ALL animals are subject to individual behaviours which may not reflect the general nature of the species, and I daresay the OP is the same. It may be a specialist feeder as an adult... it may not, but one or two captive-bred generations would probably make a huge difference to its prospects as a captive subject. 

It wasn't even given a reasonable chance - removed from the care of one of the most capable keepers in the country, and placed into the care of inexpert public servants - one of whom took one to the first Expo at Darling Harbour, took it home to the Blue Mountains every night where it went without heat... that animal died from RI about 3 weeks after it went back to Darwin.

I bet Peter Krauss wouldn't have sacrificed his animal/s for the sake of a bit of publicity...

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Sep 6, 2011)

Roger, it a nutshell that's what PK was implying - set them up well, leave them alone, don't fuss about them.


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## waruikazi (Sep 6, 2011)

Jungle_Freak said:


> *I only mention the above in a hope that who ever gets the OP breeding programme pays attention to what i wrote.
> *Stress is the course of any wild pythons failure to thrive in captivity.
> SIGNS OF STRESS.
> NOT AGGRESSIVE AND POOR FEEDING RESPONCE.
> In most cases the stressed python will only feed well enough to stay alive but then they are very succeptable to many ailments , etc.



Perhaps you could ask reptillian1933 to pass that info on for you... :lol:


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## Nighthawk (Sep 6, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Roger, it a nutshell that's what PK was implying - set them up well, leave them alone, don't fuss about them.



In other words; life is simple, it's people who overcomplicate things.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 6, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Roger, it a nutshell that's what PK was implying - set them up well, leave them alone, don't fuss about them.



Ok Michael, I totally agree with Peter 
Also I was not having a go at Peter at all .
Just giving a opinion on husbandry and stress management etc.
Roger.


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## Wookie (Sep 7, 2011)

Nice shorts slick turtle :lol:


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## cement (Sep 11, 2011)

cement said:


> Originally Posted by *Slickturtle*
> 
> 
> I reckon they are gentle giants. I wonder if PK found that as well?
> ...


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## Wiganov (Sep 12, 2011)

I was always taken by this line on Oenpellis in Rick Shine's _Australian Snakes - A Natural History_:

"To see one of these giant ghostly snakes stretched out on the Arnhem Land escarpment in the moonlight is one of the great sights of Australian herpetology."


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## spotlight (Sep 12, 2011)

trust me guys, i saw the set up Krauss used to house his OP's in and no one could of done better!!
the encloser took up the whole back wall of his snake house, it looked like something you would see in a wildlife park display it had cave sections for them to hide away from sight, NO STRESS!!


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 12, 2011)

edited


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## waruikazi (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm having a little difficulty trying to follow who's on what side of the discussion atm, and what anyone is actually saying. Maybe i'm working too hard in my job and have a bit of brain fry!

I'm still left wondering how much experience people on either side of the discussion have with keeping WC snakes? I used to be a nominee on a take permit, so i have a little first hand experience and i also have some good friends who have/had take permits. So i also have their experience and in one of those cases the snakes worked with included these drop bears. WC snakes, adult animals, don't do well in captivity as a general rule. You get some that are the exception but as a general rule it doesn't matter how good the set up is they usually don't ever thrive.


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## Waterrat (Sep 12, 2011)

.



waruikazi said:


> I'm still left wondering how much experience people on either side of the discussion have with keeping WC snakes? I used to be a nominee on a take permit, so i have a little first hand experience and i also have some good friends who have/had take permits. So i also have their experience and in one of those cases the snakes worked with included these drop bears. WC snakes, adult animals, don't do well in captivity as a general rule. You get some that are the exception but as a general rule it doesn't matter how good the set up is they usually don't ever thrive.



Gordo, I collected many snakes from the wild before 1972 and throughout the 80s on permit for the Zoo and privately. The majority of them settled in captivity very well, few didn't, mainly those that were put on public display too soon. The major losses were species from different climatic zones, e.g. tigers, copperheads and from different ecosystems, e.g. desert species. A good number of our WC snakes not only thrived but also bred in captivity. Admittedly, some individuals were very difficult and were released back to the wild.


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## keetyhunt (Jan 20, 2012)

I will post some exciting pics in short future' ;-)

I Know the Legand who is trying to breed them and repopulate it' belive me not soo far. u all will know how successful the breeding will be.
'


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## Vincey (Jan 20, 2012)

keetyhunt said:


> I will post some exciting pics in short future' ;-)
> 
> I Know the Legand who is trying to breed them and repopulate it' belive me not soo far. u all will know how successful the breeding will be.
> '


is that you reptilian1924?


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## Darlyn (Jan 20, 2012)

keetyhunt said:


> I will post some exciting pics in short future' ;-)
> 
> I Know the Legand who is trying to breed them and repopulate it' belive me not soo far. u all will know how successful the breeding will be.
> '




Holding my breath starting from...............................................................................................Now!


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## reptilian1924 (Jan 20, 2012)

VinceFASSW said:


> is that you reptilian1924?



No its not me who is trying to breed and repopulate the Oenpelli Python's, l have only ever see them on display in captivity at the Territory wildlife Park, in Berry Springs Darwin NT in the 90's where they use to have 2 on display in the Reptile Department.

Once they do become established in the Pet Trade l have no plan on getting them, they just don't interest me one bit nor do l want them just because they are so rare in captivity, instead l would rather keep a albino Olive Python or Woma or Black-Headed Python's than a Oenpelli Python, and no-way would l be seen paying 10's of thousand of dollars for any Reptile just to have something that no-one else has or are so rare each and everyone to their own opinion.

Cheers,

Reptilian1924 ( Les ).


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## waruikazi (Jan 20, 2012)

I got emailed a picture of another drop bear that was recently found on Wednesday. Again by somone who wasn't looking for them... Pretty upset by it really. lol


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## SamNabz (Jan 20, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> I got emailed a picture of another drop bear that was recently found on Wednesday. Again by somone who wasn't looking for them... Pretty upset by it really. lol



Lol Gordo, you'll get your chance one day mate.

Maybe you'll have better luck if you just go for a casual stroll with no camera and end your 300+ hour long drought.


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## Boidae (Jan 20, 2012)

keetyhunt said:


> I will post some exciting pics in short future' ;-)
> I Know the Legand who is trying to breed them and repopulate it' belive me not soo far. u all will know how successful the breeding will be.



Your first post, and your claiming your 'legand' mate breeds Oenpellis...?


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## PythonLegs (Jan 20, 2012)

O0O0OO0....if they're being bred by a 'legand', that can only mean one man! Love you, Ray!

Hey boidae, what does '0.1 liasis' mean? You only keep their tails? That's been giving me a headache.


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## Retic (Jan 20, 2012)

It means 1 female, 1.1 means one of each.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 20, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> I'm still left wondering how much experience people on either side of the discussion have with keeping WC snakes? I used to be a nominee on a take permit, so i have a little first hand experience and i also have some good friends who have/had take permits. So i also have their experience and in one of those cases the snakes worked with included these drop bears. WC snakes, adult animals, don't do well in captivity as a general rule. You get some that are the exception but as a general rule it doesn't matter how good the set up is they usually don't ever thrive.



Working with wild collected specimens for close to thirty years, my view is close to being the opposite of yours.
Most wild aduts of most species I have dealt with, have and do thrive in captivity. A few reptiles can be difficult but provided the right enviornment and prey stimulus they should come good ( if you can be bothered of course).


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## PythonLegs (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks boa, panadol averted.


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## Retic (Jan 20, 2012)

No problem.


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## Vincey (Jan 20, 2012)

boidae said:


> Your first post, and your claiming your 'legand' mate breeds Oenpellis...?



+ 1


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## snakeg56 (Jan 20, 2012)

Only person in the world that I know of to breed Oenpelli's is Peter Krauss, that was years ago and even the Park that eventually got them hasn't breed them and the original ones have seen died, nothing much is really know about these amazing snakes. It's a shame that the NT government doesn't assist with breeding these in captivity and learning more about species but alas it doesn't happen cause private people don't know nothing about breeding (according to the major zoos). But we can all learn from each other. Great pic and hope the locals dont eat him


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## waruikazi (Jan 20, 2012)

snakeg56 said:


> Great pic and hope the locals dont eat him



What is with comments like this???

Do you eat every sheep you see?


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## Poggle (Jan 20, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> What is with comments like this???
> 
> Do you eat every sheep you see?



Some people dont full understand remote communities gordo. They ASSUME big meat is eaten. Without understanding comes confusion and often speak of the unknown.


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## Boidae (Jan 20, 2012)

Haha yeah it's confused a few people.. 
The numbers represent how many snakes/herps you have of one particular species..

EDIT: 

1.0.0 = 1 male.
2.0.0 = 2 males. 

0.1.0 = 1 female
0.2.0 = 2 females

1.1.0 = 1 male, 1 female
2.1.0 = 2 males, 1 female

1.1.1 = 1 female, 1 male, 1 unknown.


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## Waterrat (Jan 20, 2012)

Reminds me of my family: 1.12.68


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## PMyers (Jan 23, 2012)

PythonLegs said:


> O0O0OO0....if they're being bred by a 'legand', that can only mean one man! Love you, Ray!


Well he is "the best", isn't he? Endorsed by the government, right? Says so right on his web page... umpteen &$^%# times, in red text! Makes me wonder why it isn't written in ALL CAPS!


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