# Turtles in tropical aquarium ?



## aterese (Jun 4, 2008)

Hi folks,

First post, but long time lurker 

I am setting up a new 5ft aquarium.

I am eager since the size allows to add a turtle but I am not sure of the differing requirements between tropical fish (cichlids) and turtles.

I realise that turtles will make a mess and possibly attack some fish....so I've got plenty of room, lots of dedicated ornaments for hiding etc and doubled the filtration system.

I have a floating turtle dock....but that's as much as I have prepared.

I need to know what basking light is essential for the turtle (if at all) and can I get this separate and sit it just over the turtle dock ? Will it affect the rest of the aquarium habitate at all ?

Can turtles survive in an aquarium without the basking lamp and just normal aquarium florescent lights...and what vitamins must I then add (eg. D) to the water. Will the vitamins added affect my tropical fish.

I know others have mixed and I just need to understand how you can accomplish it without jeopardising the turtle or the fish.

PS. Still to add the turtle and fish once the tank has stabilised (new). So freedom at this stage to decide order of adding and what type of fish will be most compatible.

I would appreciate ANY advice, including what breeds of turtle I should look for (QLD).


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## Kirby (Jun 4, 2008)

he WILL eat your fish, no doubt about it. 

cichlids have a higher PH then necessary for say a turtle. on the other hand, the extreme amount of waste the turtle will excrete will attack your filter, and alter your amonia levels etc. and probably kill those fish too fast to be eaten. 

scrap the fish, and go the turtle. he will also destroy and knock over your ornaments, and eat all your plants.. 

you dont add vitamins to the water, he NEEDS a heat lamp, and a uvb tube (reptisun 10.0) 

not to mentionthe fact that the turtle would rather be around 22-24 C and your cichlids around 26 C




most breeds of turtle will need an outdoor pond when fully grown, unless you want to opt. for a 6-8ft tank that is 2 foot deep and wide.


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## aterese (Jun 4, 2008)

Sounds like I can't pull off the mix then.

Since the tanks is my partners for a tropical setup....turtle won't win out 

I was going to have only heavy ornaments (for fish to hide) and artificial plants.


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## Emzie (Jun 4, 2008)

i house my turtles with fish but i buy the fish for the turtle to eat so a bit different, if you want the fish to live the dont house them together and as kirby said they need uv and heat light


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## cris (Jun 4, 2008)

Get a short neck species, they are fine with most fish given enough space and a sutatble habitat. It would be very unlikely for one to catch a fish, i have never lost a single fish unexpectedly to a turtle.

The can survive without a basking spot(they do definately nee land though) but it is a good idea to have one with a UVb light, a mecury vapour bulb over the basking spot will cover everything.


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## Ristof (Jun 4, 2008)

I have keeped short necks in with gold fish and they have been fine
At the moment they are out in the pond - a mixture of 2 turts and about 15 gold fish

I would also think that some cichlids being aggressive to anything else in the tank could cause harm to the turt


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## gillsy (Jun 4, 2008)

Kirby said:


> he WILL eat your fish, no doubt about it.
> 
> cichlids have a higher PH then necessary for say a turtle. on the other hand, the extreme amount of waste the turtle will excrete will attack your filter, and alter your amonia levels etc. and probably kill those fish too fast to be eaten.


 

Depending on cichlids, it's the same water conditions. Chiclids live in almost every freshwater habitat and water conditions available and some live in brackish. So that is a bit of a generalisation.

Also i'd be more worried that the territorial cichlids will attack your fish.

What type cichlids are you getting


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## fuegan13 (Jun 4, 2008)

gillsy said:


> Depending on cichlids, it's the same water conditions. Chiclids live in almost every freshwater habitat and water conditions available and some live in brackish. So that is a bit of a generalisation.
> 
> Also i'd be more worried that the territorial cichlids will attack your fish.
> 
> What type cichlids are you getting



i agree. it depends on the cichlids. 

i kept peacocks and electric yellows for years and personally found them to be very tolerant of a wide range of pH and temps... 

and i havent kept turtles, but from keeping cichlids id be worried about the turtle not the fish if its a baby turtle, i had my male peacock kill an angel fish that was about 3 times its size


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## gillsy (Jun 4, 2008)

Yeah you alooking at aggressive africans against a non aggressive american. 

Really shouldn't be together. 

Anyhow name what fish your getting and we can give you a better idea.

Eg Kribensis will be fine, but i wouldn't put a devil cichlid in, I'd put discus in just because I hate discus lol.


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 4, 2008)

yea i was housing three turtles in a 6 foot display with american cichlids and they were fine. Jus depends on the type of cichlid. They were more aggressive, salvini and jack dempsey etc.

I now have the same 3 and another one in with a few americans but mainly natives and they are fine. They love when I put gold fish in!

Beleive it or not I have 3 clown loaches in with the turtles as well, they were in an ornament i moved to the turtle tank and not knowing, 2 days later they were swimming around happy as larry and they have never even been nipped.

Trial and error is how most new fish keepers learn, you will soon understand.

People say all this stuff about turtles being messy and stuff, for a four foot tank I only had 2 internals running for a while with crystal clear water! It will be messy if you dont do water changes and another tip, I feed them outside the tank in a bucket that way you can throw the messy water away and it wont be in your tank.

They dont NEED a basking light.


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## gillsy (Jun 4, 2008)

I have turtles in with keelbacks so anything is possible.


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## -Peter (Jun 4, 2008)

Really, its not a matter of need its a matter of what your willing to supply. Theres a difference between what they can survive on and what they can thrive on. 
Give them a basking light and everything that they require to thrive.
Sure they can survive with out UV, sure they can survive on mince and sure they can survive without a basking light but who would want to raise turtles with poor bone and carapace developement, calcified organs and shorter life spans.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AustralianFreshwaterTurtlesandFrogs/


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 4, 2008)

yea i would higly recommend a UV light, and it cant be going through glass it has to be on them!


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## Emzie (Jun 4, 2008)

largeheaded1 said:


> yea i was housing three turtles in a 6 foot display with american cichlids and they were fine. Jus depends on the type of cichlid. They were more aggressive, salvini and jack dempsey etc.
> 
> I now have the same 3 and another one in with a few americans but mainly natives and they are fine. They love when I put gold fish in!
> 
> ...


 
really mine get real messy im cleaning the tank every week and have a top quality filter.

feeding them out side the tank is the best idea ever cant believe i never thought it since thats where most the mess is from


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 4, 2008)

haha yea emzie, i jus put them in a lil tank or bucket and u normally kno when they are finished cause they will try and get out

they stil do quite decent poos but nothing a good filter cant handle!

if ya feed feeder fish like goldfish or something and there is any scraps make sure you take them out straight away as well as that will make the water dirty also


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## Kirby (Jun 4, 2008)

Emzie said:


> really mine get real messy im cleaning the tank every week and have a top quality filter.
> 
> feeding them out side the tank is the best idea ever cant believe i never thought it since thats where most the mess is from



they make just as much mess eating as they do defecating. feeding in a tub only eradicates half the problem.. 

as for PH levels, i work in an aquarium, you need a whole different ph test when testing cichlid water as its off the chart on a normal ph test. 

yes, some fish may cope in lower ph, but again, some snakes 'cope' without heat... its not good for them tho is it?


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## aterese (Jun 6, 2008)

*still hoping, feedback on choice ?*

:lol: Here is a snapshot of what I've researched and hope might mix:







Please be open about what species are definite NO NOs.

I'd love a discus or a oscar, or large gournami, but I have pretty much gathered it won't be possible due to eating fish/aggression.

I would love small fish that breed but I'm wondering how many will survive not being eaten.

Setup summary:

5ft tank, external 1200l filter, internal 1800l filter, 300watt heater, 4ft light (but glass lids between). Plenty of logs, plants, rocks for dedicated shelter for catfish, loaches, cichlids and the small fish.

*I'm very appreciative of this forum and the replies...please do feel free to comment on what I've narrowed down and tell me if I'm missing out on obvious opportunities for other species that are non-aggressive.*


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## gillsy (Jun 6, 2008)

Discus will be fine, they're not aggressive unless breeding (generally)

All yoru americans are some of the most aggressive you can get so no to those.

The africans aren't much better either.

Scats will destroy your plants within two days, they're vegetarians. Same with silver dollars.

All your other fish are fine, i would keep away from the knife's as they produce an electrical current not sure what they'd do to your turtles.

And the khulii's may get eaten and the turts could get the spines caught.

The small fish are all fine, but you may loose a few every now and then. But they're all quite fash swimmig fish so should only be on the odd occassion.


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## gillsy (Jun 6, 2008)

Oh the clowns i woudln't keep in any less than 5. 

They look better, are happier and are fun to watch.


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## gillsy (Jun 6, 2008)

And plus the africans and americans shouldn't be kept together.


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## Australis (Jun 6, 2008)

Step one: get rid of the exotic fish
Step two: replace with stunning native freshwater fish.
Step three: add turtle

Most native fish are tolerant of just about any water quality, pretty amazing fish.
You could even match the locality of the turtle with fish from the same locale.
its a beautiful thing.


I also agree with Cris's short neck turtle comments.


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## gillsy (Jun 6, 2008)

depends if you like boring natives


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## aterese (Jun 6, 2008)

Thanks folks....narrowing down the list 

Are Oscars, Gourami and Angels out of the picture ?

I had ruled out Discus from comments they'll eat the other fish, also stuck with Dwarf Gourami as more compatible....but this might be wrong assumption.

Sorry Australis but I am so bored with native fish, goldfish and bettas.


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## gillsy (Jun 6, 2008)

aterese said:


> Thanks folks....narrowing down the list
> 
> Are Oscars, Gourami and Angels out of the picture ?
> 
> ...


 
Angles and discus are similar, oscars while small but will quickly grow and will eat anything that fits in their mouth but aggression wise their fine.

Gourami's are fine, sometimes the blue/gold's a little aggressive pearls are fine.

I think angels can be more aggressive than oscars and discus.


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 6, 2008)

yea setting up turtle tanks the best thing i have learnt is they do best with natives...i have one tank with some grunters and a jack and its beautiufl!


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## freerider (Jun 6, 2008)

Australis said:


> Step one: get rid of the exotic fish
> Step two: replace with stunning native freshwater fish.
> Step three: add turtle
> 
> ...




I agree, full native river sytem in a tank looks incredible.
My big,big aquarium built into the wall will only contain natives/turtles


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## cris (Jun 6, 2008)

Go for some boring native species, Archers, scats, batfish, gobies, gudgeons eg. sleepy cod or purple spotted if you want something that wont get too big. You could also get away with juveniles other larger species such as bara, saratoga, bream and possibly some banded grunters(they can be a bit nasty though).

Comparing native fish with those available normally in the aquarium trade i cant see how anyone could call them boring... this site is full of incorrect opinions though so its OK


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## aterese (Jun 6, 2008)

They are boring because 1/ I've had goldfish and bettas around most of my life and 2/ I have plenty of native fish in my backyard (back onto a canal)....and they are for food.

I wonder what response that will get....yes I am a fish lover but I also hunt the ones I wanna eat. Seeing a barra grow big enough for a table plate might tempt me too much


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## cris (Jun 6, 2008)

aterese said:


> They are boring because 1/ I've had goldfish and bettas around most of my life and 2/ I have plenty of native fish in my backyard (back onto a canal)....and they are for food.
> 
> I wonder what response that will get....yes I am a fish lover but I also hunt the ones I wanna eat. Seeing a barra grow big enough for a table plate might tempt me too much



Yes they are good food, like most animals they taste good, but they also are interesting to keep. How many species do you have out back? Also you already had some natives in your list anyway...

Apart from what others have said, i would also be cautious with the spiny eel as i think it may be more likely to get eaten, but im only guessing and havnt ever kept them with turtles. The sleepy cod will eat small fish, but the others should be fine. Scats do eat plants but i dont think they would match the destruction the turtle would cause.


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## gillsy (Jun 6, 2008)

I doubt that, I have scene scats destroy a tank in 24 hours.


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## aterese (Jun 10, 2008)

*Combatibility of tropical fish*

I have to say I'm still getting very confused after the weekend.

Setup the new 5ft and surprised my partner, then took him to the aquarium stores so he can get an idea of fish to choose on his birthday (well start introducing some each week).

He then wanted to go Marine....yikes....I had everything picked out for tropical....finally the stores convinced him about the maintenance, costs of extra equipment etc. He only wanted this because the fish look brighter and more stunning!

So now we have the tank cycling and I did cheat and use the cycle starting chemical to introduce the bacteria. The pH from the tap was over 7, so I've tried to bring that down and still up at 7, so gave another dose today. Otherwise I need to get a proper kit to test all the other levels.

I was told at the stores (as we choose normal small gravel) that if we want the African Cichlids or Discus then we are best adding limestone or coral to bring up the pH for them and not get stuck with the aquarium only suited to them (ie. calc. carb in the gravel).

I need to be educated as to whether other tropical fish like loach, catfish, gourami...can live at the higher pH the cichlids need ? The water I have currently at 27deg.

Here is the latest revised list after the partner expressed his desires. He very much wants Discus, Angels and at least Gourami. He prefers the bright fish and was very disappointed being told he can't mix Cichlids (with the others due to aggression).

I am real confused as some people tell me the mix Electric Yellows with loach and catfish, then others mix a Oscar with other fish. I'm not concerned about size of small fish, plenty of hiding places and if they get eaten (guppies, tetras) well it won't bother us or will even keep the breeding population down 

The stores also tell us on one hand the American Cichlids are most aggressive and in some forums I get told the opposite and stay away from Africans. Then we get told NO to angels unless they are just with tetras. And catfish will eat everything. It all contradicts what I am told by different sources.

We really need HELP on understanding the least aggressive subspecies of the African Cichlids and Gourami. Even understanding which sharks to stick with etc. 

Here is the latest list:







We intend getting all these as juveniles, getting smaller breeds first to establish themselves.

If anyone can point out what order I should add the fish that would be very helpful.


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## gillsy (Jun 10, 2008)

aterese said:


> So now we have the tank cycling and I did cheat and use the cycle starting chemical to introduce the bacteria. The pH from the tap was over 7, so I've tried to bring that down and still up at 7, so gave another dose today. Otherwise I need to get a proper kit to test all the other levels. That’s not cheating, it’s actually very good, especially if you get the one you need to keep in the fridge. The BIO liquid kept in red square bottles I swear by.
> 
> I was told at the stores (as we choose normal small gravel) that if we want the African Cichlids or Discus then we are best adding limestone or coral to bring up the pH for them and not get stuck with the aquarium only suited to them (ie. calc. carb in the gravel). ***, that’s true for Africans not Discus. They need soft acidic water, and I hate discus because they’ve been in captivity so long if they can’t adjust yet screw them. I’ve kept discus twice, never treated the water any different than I would goldfish. The babies seemed to thrive but if you do it to adults they don’t’ do so well…. DISCUS ARE BORING!!!!
> 
> ...


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## Horsy (Jun 10, 2008)

You will see Kuhli Loaches if you have them in a big enough school. I have 25 (mix of striped and black) and they are always swimming around, playing and whatnot. Believe it or not, the more hides you have, the more you'll see them. That goes for all loaches


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 10, 2008)

gillsy said:


> aterese said:
> 
> 
> > So now we have the tank cycling and I did cheat and use the cycle starting chemical to introduce the bacteria. The pH from the tap was over 7, so I've tried to bring that down and still up at 7, so gave another dose today. Otherwise I need to get a proper kit to test all the other levels. That’s not cheating, it’s actually very good, especially if you get the one you need to keep in the fridge. The BIO liquid kept in red square bottles I swear by.
> ...


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## gillsy (Jun 10, 2008)

Gourami’s are fine 
Catfish fine (gold sucking is not a catfish) – however they are all algae eaters, you wont have enough to get all stick with Bristlenose and Pleco’s. The gold sucking can sometimes suck on fish and consume scales and flesh.
The problem with plecos and turtles are that the plecos seem to have the big fins which the turtles love! I have lost many plecos to turtles, i find the bristlenoses are fine with them.
Cool sounds good.



Americans – no way all but the rams will destroy everyting in your tank
Not true, I have kept americans for many years, raning from Rams to the big 'aggressive' ones, they do not destroy the tank
Destroy you tank, by aggression to other tank members not necessarily the physical tank. In a community tank I wouldn’t keep the aggressive cichlids. I’m not saying they wouldn’t work, as I’ve done many things that ‘aren’t supposed to work’. But for a newby trying to get a good mix I would avoid them.



Loach – Kuhli you’ll never see, I wouldn’t bother, Clowns have 5+ you’ll be fine.
I have 4 clowns with my turtles and they are fine.
1 will work fine, but doesn’t necessarily make it good. I like clowns in large schools, they look better and are fun to watch. 


Silver Dollar’s/Scats – you can but they are flightly and will eat your plants
I find these guys very good with turtles as they are qucik and very hard for the turtle to catch
Yeah, true. Depends if you want plants or not. Personal preference. I’ve always found silver dollars flighty and I personally think they’re not attractive. The red hook dollards, (I can’t think of they’re exact name but I think it’s red hook m (something) I like. More colour and not as flightly.


All the rest are ok.


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 10, 2008)

Americans – no way all but the rams will destroy everyting in your tank
Not true, I have kept americans for many years, raning from Rams to the big 'aggressive' ones, they do not destroy the tank
Destroy you tank, by aggression to other tank members not necessarily the physical tank. In a community tank I wouldn’t keep the aggressive cichlids. I’m not saying they wouldn’t work, as I’ve done many things that ‘aren’t supposed to work’. But for a newby trying to get a good mix I would avoid them.
Ohhh ok yea there are some aggressive ones out there. At the same time there are ALOT of peaceful ones, I have never had a problem except for 2 brasiliensis....besides that Jack Dempseys and stuff are fine. You want one that can hold its own more so as there will be turtles in the tank. There are different types of aggression though, they are more of a territorial fish which triggers the aggression, jus make sure you have plenty of hidey holes and logs/caves for them.

Loach – Kuhli you’ll never see, I wouldn’t bother, Clowns have 5+ you’ll be fine.
I have 4 clowns with my turtles and they are fine.
1 will work fine, but doesn’t necessarily make it good. I like clowns in large schools, they look better and are fun to watch. 
Yea thats true, a group of 5 plus would look awesome but these guys grow to be over 1 foot which if you had 5 or 6 could be quite cramped.


Silver Dollar’s/Scats – you can but they are flightly and will eat your plants
I find these guys very good with turtles as they are qucik and very hard for the turtle to catch
Yeah, true. Depends if you want plants or not. Personal preference. I’ve always found silver dollars flighty and I personally think they’re not attractive. The red hook dollards, (I can’t think of they’re exact name but I think it’s red hook m (something) I like. More colour and not as flightly.
Yea, I have fake plants in my turtle tank as it will get really messy and I dont lose the plants to turtles and fish 


All the rest are ok.

not having a go either, jus giving opinions


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## gillsy (Jun 10, 2008)

yeah i know 

Wasn't a go back either 

Just want to keep things clear for alterese.


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 10, 2008)

its starting to look nice and pretty tho haha

alterese where are you from, there are a lot of good fish forums that would be able to help you out, im a member of qldaf for qld memers, pm me if your from qld.


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## gillsy (Jun 10, 2008)

Americans – no way all but the rams will destroy everything in your tank
Not true, I have kept Americans for many years, ranging from Rams to the big 'aggressive' ones, they do not destroy the tank
Destroy you tank, by aggression to other tank members not necessarily the physical tank. In a community tank I wouldn’t keep the aggressive cichlids. I’m not saying they wouldn’t work, as I’ve done many things that ‘aren’t supposed to work’. But for a newbie trying to get a good mix I would avoid them.
Ohhh ok yea there are some aggressive ones out there. At the same time there are ALOT of peaceful ones, I have never had a problem except for 2 brasiliensis....besides that Jack Dempsey’s and stuff is fine. You want one that can hold its own more so as there will be turtles in the tank. There are different types of aggression though, they are more of a territorial fish which triggers the aggression, just make sure you have plenty of hidey holes and logs/caves for them.
True, yet Brasiliensis I have found generally to be peaceful, except if breeding. I love firemouths, but they come in waives of availability. 




Loach – Kuhli you’ll never see, I wouldn’t bother, Clowns have 5+ you’ll be fine.
I have 4 clowns with my turtles and they are fine.
1 will work fine, but doesn’t necessarily make it good. I like clowns in large schools, they look better and are fun to watch. 
Yea that’s true, a group of 5 plus would look awesome but these guys grow to be over 1 foot which if you had 5 or 6 could be quite cramped.
Yeah however they do grow large but take many years, and are always easy to get rid of. I bought 10 5 inch ones and they only grew about an inch in the 5 years I’ve had them


Silver Dollar’s/Scats – you can but they are flightily and will eat your plants
I find these guys very good with turtles as they are quick and very hard for the turtle to catch
Yeah, true. Depends if you want plants or not. Personal preference. I’ve always found silver dollars flighty and I personally think they’re not attractive. The red hook dollars, (I can’t think of they’re exact name but I think its red hook m (something) I like. More colour and not as flighty.
Yea, I have fake plants in my turtle tank as it will get really messy and I don’t lose the plants to turtles and fish 
I hate plastic plants, I’d rather get cheap plants and replace them. Java fern, moss and the tough plants do really well.
J


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## aterese (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm hating the plastic plants (though fake coral is great). They are just so sparce....need to definitely add some dense real plants.

If I only have gravel, without dirting the water up what plants can I get away with. Must I add sand or something else to have live plants?


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## gillsy (Jun 10, 2008)

Nah, just keep you gravel fine.

I like Mary River Sand for my keelbacks.


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## gillsy (Jun 10, 2008)

Fake coral eww.. worse than fake plants.


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 10, 2008)

haha yea i have to agree fake coral is worse than fake plants!

if you have fake plants it can look really good!

with turtles anyway, i always use fake plants as they stir them up and mess it all around


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## aterese (Jun 20, 2008)

Fake coral and Multicure (whitespot introduced by a fish)....does not go down well. It is now formed some sludge and you can't even see the coral colours.

That Multicure also coated my filter tubes, is that what they refer to as Silcon slime ?


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## gillsy (Jun 20, 2008)

Why have you needed multicure so early in the tank's life.


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## gillsy (Jun 20, 2008)

How many and what fish did you put in the tank to begin with.


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## aterese (Jun 20, 2008)

Some fish I introduced or stress (yes probably overcrowded)....caused whitespot. It spread to a couple other fish.

I didn't have the means to separate the fish at the time, so treated the tank (besides I didn't want it spreading after removal of only one's showing symptoms).

I am new at this so forgive my mistakes please. I do think it was a certain batch of fish, as all of those fish died within the week introduced, but all the existing fish (from different sources) were fine. The white spot (and some jagged tails on certain other fish - still trying to isolate if rot or biting or other)...started only after that batch was introduced.

I did add some plants too.

The levels are:

amonia - near 0
nitrate (or nitrite) not sure which test I have - was .2 climbed to .4
ph - 7.5 (letting water changes increase it naturally)

Did a 30% water change before treating with multicure and going to retest everything tonight.

Also added some salts.


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## wood_nymph (Jun 20, 2008)

if you want to know more about the desease:
white spot is a bit of a nasty desease and commonly isn't actually inroduced to a tank. they are a bacteral based parasite, this bacteria is constantly present in fish, but when they get stressed it over populates and develops into a parasite. i've actualy read that the parasites once into their free swimming life cycle stage they can actually survive our drinking water treatments and can come into a tank with the addition of tap water. its hard to treat because of its life cycle, it latches onto fish grow and detachts becoming free swimming and reproduce, little baby parasite grow up and attactch to fish. while attachted they are untreatable so you have to wait untill they are free swimming for teatment to work. the teatment course you have started is great, you can also oush the temps up a tad to speed up the parasites life cycle so they are exposed to the treatment quicker. the multi cure product is god for mild or early cases if it progresses switch to a white spot spefic treatment. i actually continure treatment another round after all fish are n longer symptomatic to make sure i've got all the free swimmers. after treatment there is a fw things you can do to reduce the chance of it crpping up again. i would recomend a week course of a product called melafix, it's a natural medicine that is anti-bacterial and helps the fishs slime coat (their immune system)
*note:* make sure to remove all carbon from your filter during treatment of any medication, carbon will deactivate the active ingredients

good luck, white spot is my number one most hated fish desease


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## gillsy (Jun 20, 2008)

What fish did you end up getting, and how many. How long has the tank been set up for. And as mentioned remove all carbon, as it removes the chemicals that treat the fish.


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## aterese (Jun 20, 2008)

Crap.....now I'm going to have to admit my overcrowded newbie problem.

I don't know the technical specie names off hand.

I added 6 fish at the start (well my existing 2 guppies, 3 swords were transferred, then on day 3 the new 6 fish were added). They were all lake w. cichlids (got the list at home, but quieter ones). Also 2 angel(koi one died a week later).

Then I added some sharks (2 silver, 2 rainbow), 3 clown loaches, dwarf coral gourami.

What was meant to be last was 2 bumblebee, 1 rusty cichlid, 1 white tail, 1 orange (flameback?) plus handful of neon tetras. Yes the tetras disappeared during the night (lesson learnt).

Of course I saw opportunity and added a juvenile Red Oscar and 2 more dwarf gourami. What can I say...I'm a newbie who became addicted and couldn't help it.

I transferred my 2 pakistani loach (tiny) because they were eating guppy fry (a small tank).
Same day I think I added 2 albino, 2 cory, 1 black knife. All were very small. Albino died next day, then cory next day, then black knife, then albino. Might be one cory left alive (never see it though).

White spot became evident on Oscar and slightly on fins of sharks/clown loan (all cichlids seem clear) after the first few of that last batch started to die.

Note I've added all these fishes in batches about every 3rd day. It's been 2 weeks since start. Tank was newly set up with all equipment, plus the chemical to avoid new tank syndrome (secrum ?). I checked the levels every 2 days and only during the last batch of fish, did the levels go up to .4 for nitrate.

All fish are juveniles (bumble bee, dusty, white tail and oscar are largest at about 10cm max, rest are 4-5cm at most). I did this with theory introducing young together they will establish as community better. I did try not to be stupid with real aggressive territory fish.

I am keeping careful eye on the white tail (colours show his mood and agro), oscar and a bumble bee (behaviour shows his agro). The other cichlids will occassionally test the couple of sword/guppies in there but never catch them (even at night), do the same to the plants. The 3 dominate fish seem to respect each other, have their territories and just keep other fish out of their way. 

Oscar is only concern as I saw him with the dead angel (had lost half its body already) sitting in his mouth (undigested) for a few days. The oscar I never see attack a fish, but I sure think he cleans up when there is dead ones around. Eventually he swallowed the remainder of the angel.

I treated 2 days ago after a water change and in 2 days there is no sign of clearing up of the white spot on the oscar and couple of other affected fish. It says retreat on day 3 (after another water change). That will be tomorrow.


I removed all swords and guppies from the tank and in the other small tank they are happy, no illness, and having babies. One very pregnant guppy died mysteriously (almost like she burst???)...but otherwise there is a handful of guppies, swords, 3 bn and all getting along.


All the fish I added in the first 2 batches and have been there since very start of cycling (with the chemical) are still alive and not showing ill health. 1 dwarf gourami died after the problem batch.

No more have died but since they are days apart, probably due for one soon.

Oscar I'm getting concerned as this morning he looked dead, was asleep, but wondering if I'll find him sluggish tonight at feeding and then know he's really sick.

I don't know whether to take out any fish as if I put them in the other tank, they'll just likely infect the guppies/swords. Plus the 5ft tank has the best filtration and is already being treated.

I figured once the fish start to grow and it really is too little space for so many, I'll give away my less preferred ones.

I'm blaming myself for too many fish and stressing them.

If the levels are up at all or I see any increased sickness, then tomorrow I'll take a water sample to a LFS.


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## aterese (Jun 20, 2008)

Carbon I introduced only last week and removed again 3 days later.


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## gillsy (Jun 20, 2008)

well there's your problem over how may days/weeks did you add these.


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## largeheaded1 (Jun 20, 2008)

put the temps up to about 30/32 degrees and medicate....medicate for about a week than do a water change and if its stull around start again

salt is an awesome way to treat ich with high temps as well but DO NOT add salt as your loaches and stuff cant take it


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## gillsy (Jun 20, 2008)

Be wary with such a high temp, low o2 levels will cause o2 starvation.

Thanks


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## aterese (Jun 21, 2008)

Thank you for not bagging me. Yes too many fish and in just 2 weeks 

I have both filters with water flow above surface to keep up o2. I am concerned that it is extremely humid with the glass lids on (and then the hood). I seems to drip dew everywhere and feel steamy (even if the water itself is at 28 atm).

Should I remove at least some of the glass lids at the front (so that air gets under the back of the hood easier and into the top of the tank ?

Should I add an air pump with a stone rod ?

I will put the temp up to 30deg.

Fortunately no more dead fish in that tank, oscar is still swimming around.

However now the other tank had 2 dead fish, which was to be expected. They were freebies that when I brought them home last night, my whole bucket fell and I had 10 mins of fun trying to find fishies under my washing machine    They survived and seemed fine once introduced carefully to the guppy tank, but then 2 dropped off suddenly today. I am just happy the rest are still alive and not looking stressed. I also had some babies born.

PS. I put a low level of salt according to the instructions if you had less tolerant fish (I saw loach listed).


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## gillsy (Jun 23, 2008)

I wouldn't put it up to 30c.

28 maybe but not 30.

I'm not going to bag you about how you put your fish in, but i will about what fish you have choosen.

You need to seriously think about what you have done. It's like putting scrubbies, pygmies, jungles, bredli's and maybe a brown all in the same enclosure.

You need to stick with one type of fish. You will have constant stress in the tank which means you will have constant outbreaks of desease.

I don't see why you asked for help if you haven't listen to anything we've said.

Anyway, and just because fish were free shouldn't mean they should be treated any different to the ones you bought.


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## aterese (Jun 23, 2008)

Most of the fish are actually quite compatible from the comments I was provided. The hard part is getting many conflicting comments and I went with what majority told me was generally okay.

They were Lake Malawi cichlids at the beginning. Then I was confused about some breeders comments on the 2nd batch (not realising till later that I'd mixed cichlids and they were more dominate ones) - fortunately they too have been okay.

It was all the unique fish ones added after that which my partner wanted (his birthday present originally) and yes I should have stuck to the rules then and now I have learnt.

Oscar is now doing happy (but whitespot still not reducing on him) in other tank after 2nd treatment. Amonia/Nitrate is close to zero there. Temp is 28deg.


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## gillsy (Jun 23, 2008)

Well your going to have short and long term problems, nitrate/ammonia can spike at about 4 weeks.

But you've done it now. I would definately not be sticking a turtle in.


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## aterese (Jun 23, 2008)

Okay had a long talk with the LFS.

I've found out that the breeder I got some fish from ignored my request that I was only sticking with Africian Cichlids and mixed in some Americans. Until I listed each of the fish species I did not know. I am annoyed as I did tell the breeders I sourced fish from what my intentions were and I wanted non-dominate fish etc.

I will likely have to remove the Amercians soon. I just have to take photos and identify exactly what I have and get feedback on what has to go.

I paid the cost for the sachel that goes in my canister and will remove the nitrite/nitrate slowly. Water changes were not lowering the reading. I still went ahead with another 30% change tonight before adding. 

I also purchased a White Spot treatment for the oscar (now guarantined) as the Multi Cure was not working. I am glad to learn that I must have the lighting off for it to work (besides removing carbon)...that was not on the instructions before.

Regarding the turtle, that was 3 months away. I was only looking at that once the tank is established and I am confident with the mix of fish.

Another 24 hours and no deaths....although I cannot locate the last clown loach. I don't know if he is in permanent hiding or what.....at 5cm he'd be a bit too large to be eaten in 1 day ? Plus the other fish that died were left alone except for a tasting the oscar had (now out of the tank).

Waiting game now.


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## callith (Jun 23, 2008)

My Turtle/s ate about $100 in a few days....wasn't happy so i gave up on fish and turned to reptiles


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## aterese (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi Callith,

How big were the fish the turtles ate ?


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## k_sheep (Jun 25, 2008)

As a rough guide my turtles eat fish 3x their size 

I've mixed cichlids and a turtle, however not any of the lake malawis (eg demasonis, electric yellows) or frontosas, because they require lots of rocks and caves which is bad news for a turtle.


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## aterese (Jun 25, 2008)

Is rocks and caves bad because the turtle hurts themself ?


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## k_sheep (Jun 25, 2008)

Yep and it's easy for them to get caught in holes and drown. They're not the smartest of creatures when it comes to thinking "yeah I can fit through that ... "


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