# Small headed pythons



## Fuscus (Nov 3, 2003)

One of the things I have noticed with captive carpet pythons is that they tend to have smaller heads than their wild breathen of the same length and some individuals have very small heads.
Now, is this related to feeding, if a snake has a lot to eat its body bulks up but the head grows at a fixed rate ? If so then does the head size catch up?
I'm asking this because I have a very greedy yearling snake and are worried about the consiquences of over feeding.


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## Greebo (Nov 3, 2003)

That's exactly what happens.
It is unclear yet as to whether over/power/speed feeding (whateva you want to call it) is detrimental to a snakes health in the long run.There is simply not enough research done yet.
Personally I reckon it cant be good for them.However, I feed my younger snakes more for the first couple of years then gradually feed them less as they get older.


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## Fangs (Nov 3, 2003)

Here we go again.I would like a dollar for everytime I have seen this question asked around the forums.
Everytime it comes up people say its true.Of all the pictures of captive bred snakes I have seen I have yet to see one with a head disproportionatley smaller than its body.Seen plenty of pics of fats snakes however but there is a difference between a fat snake and one with a small head.
If anyone has a pic of a snake with head out of proportion to its body could you please
share it with us please?


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## Greebo (Nov 3, 2003)

er...I was actually agreeing with Fuscus about wild snakes having bigger heads than a lot of captive bred snakes. I wouldn't say that the heads are disproportionately smaller...just smaller.
I can share some pics of wild snakes if you like?


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## Fangs (Nov 3, 2003)

yeah greebs stick em up in the gallery.....especially snakes with small heads(not on small bodies)


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## NCHERPS (Nov 3, 2003)

I agree with Greebo's comments, and would like to add a bit.

The condition you describe is commonly called 'Pinhead' syndrome, a name that has come about through Herpers rather than scientist's, but a Vet in the UK who specialisted in Reptiles, said that he had come across some very large adult python's that had 'Pinhead' and that they did suffer complications ranging from obesity, to heart conditions.

You have noted yourself the clear difference in head sizes between wild snakes and some captive ones, i think that it is just a fact that unless we fed our snakes very infrequently, and more like the wild population, we won't ever solve the problem.

Having said that, probably 90% of captive snakes, are probably physically in good shape head wise, and as you have noted every now and then you get one you think, hold on, his body is getting a bit big for his head, I better slow down his feeds for a while.

Neil


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## NoOne (Nov 3, 2003)

It takes a considerable amount of feeding to get the pinhead effect.
I've only seen a few snakes that have had out of proportion heads, they were adult pythons that were fed like juvis, they still didn't look unheathly.


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## Fangs (Nov 4, 2003)

No what I was saying is that captive bred animals are overfed in comparison to wild(some moreso than others).
A fat snake will look like it has a smaller head than an wild animal of the same length that hasn't been fed so well.


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## Artie (Nov 4, 2003)

I came across an article that may be of interest on this subject. Following is some of it:
Studies of wild snakes have revealed, that temperate-zone snakes generally consume two to four times their body weight in food per year.
Inactive species, closer to the bottom end, and very active species were expected to have requirements closure to the upper end. 
Using this as a guideline and considering that most captive snakes get little exercise in captivity the average half kilo snake would require approx. one kilo of mice per year. So on an average weight of 50 grams per mouse, that would be 20 mice.

Assuming an eight month period of activity and feeding, and four months of hibernation (brumation) that means approx.one mouse every two weeks to maintain a one kilo snake. This is only an approximate guide and does not take into account a reproductive snake or extra growth. Generally it is believed that these levels are far exceeded by most snake keepers, obesity is commonly the result especially after the snake?s reproduction stops if the intense feeding regime continues.

Males seem to be much more prone to obesity than egg laying females suggesting that energy requirements for females may be higher than for males.


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## +Gecko~Gaze+ (Nov 4, 2003)

I was told that it's the size of the prey Item. Snakes need to stretch their mouths to get around their prey ( i know they dislocate their jaw aswell ) But I mean think about it. A captive bred snake is mostly feed on mice and rats all its life, where a wild snake would eat what they can get like larger snakes might go for possums ect, ( and the occassional cat ) 
Anyways, I am not saying that theory is right, but just another way of looking at it I guess.  

Cheers


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## ReptileRascals (Nov 4, 2003)

...


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## Pinkie (Nov 4, 2003)

Sprung!


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## +Gecko~Gaze+ (Nov 4, 2003)

Bugger...How did you know?


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## Brodie (Nov 4, 2003)

HAHAHAHA


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## Alexahnder (Nov 4, 2003)

HAHAHAHA -LOL


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## ReptileRascals (Nov 4, 2003)

...


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## +Gecko~Gaze+ (Nov 4, 2003)

If you are wondering why...i realised how much of a pain in the @$$ I was and wanted to start over, but I knew if I used my Old account no -one would give me another chance. And now that you've found out you probably not gonna give me another chance anyway?


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## +Gecko~Gaze+ (Nov 4, 2003)

Yeah well I guess so RR. I am new to this whole herp thing and dont know much, so being so vunrable I guess you'll believe anything...


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## ReptileRascals (Nov 4, 2003)

...


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## Alexahnder (Nov 4, 2003)

Anyway welcome back. Has you intergrade or hybrid started feeding??


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## +Gecko~Gaze+ (Nov 4, 2003)

..Lol, i think its an intergrade ...It's eaten twice for me, but he likes stuff that moves ( he goes for my fingers rather than the pinky) So I got a pair of mice so I can give him some live babies to get him feeding properly again...Thanks for asking


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## Brodie (Nov 4, 2003)

wow


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## Alexahnder (Nov 4, 2003)

Next time try using tweezers or tongs


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## +Gecko~Gaze+ (Nov 4, 2003)

Lol... I do use them...But they arent very long so it dosent really help...Im gonna shut-up now before I change this topic.


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## ad (Nov 4, 2003)

Welcome back Belinda!
Well picked RR
lol


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## ackie (Nov 4, 2003)

hey belinda.
i was once told of this theory about the bigger the food the bigger the head but was unsure. My mind was made up wen my 2 carpets both fed on the same sized mice but one had a bigger body and head. I think i will go with the theory of snakes heads grow at a certain rate no matter how quick their body grows in revilence to their feeding habits.


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## Fuscus (Nov 4, 2003)

(Meanwhile, back at the topic and sorry for rubbing you the wrong way Fangs. And hello Belinda). I'll try and get some photos of some small-headed snakes for you Fangs, but no promises.
So pinhead syndrome may be caused by power feeding or a lack of food items that don't require jaw stretching (I like the sound of the second one but just can't see how the mechanics would work).
Another possible cause that wasn't discussed is inbreeding. Does anyone know of this going on?
Obesity may cause reproduction problems in snakes, exspecally males (Can anyone point to a photo of an obese snake, preferbly a carpet python so I can see what a fat snake looks like?)


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2003)

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## Stevethepom (Nov 5, 2003)

snakes jaws dislocate?...didnt realise they would fuse together....if yours has to dislocate its jaw belle i`d take it to a vet asap, coz mine just has ligaments holding the jaw which stretch *shrug*

cheers
Pom


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## Fangs (Nov 5, 2003)

(edited by Admin)


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## NCHERPS (Nov 5, 2003)

Fuscus,
I have heard of one guy who had bred Olives in the UK who's hatchlings had particularly small heads for the species, this was noticable on the young from Hatch though, not as you described, at the yearling stage!
Interesting topic, but one thankfully that you don't come across to often in practice!
Have you got any pic's of the carpet you are concerned about?

Cheers Neil


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## Fuscus (Nov 5, 2003)

Its a yearling water python that is the greedy eater and I am not (as yet) concerned about the animal, its the first snake I have ever kept and I am trying to avoid any future pitfalls. This post is basically a quest for knowledge.
The reason I asked for a photo of a carpet is that I am familar with the species as I have encountered 30+ while bushwalking in the Gold Coast hinterland. Most of the wilds I would describe as skinny compared to the captive animals I have seen. ONe snake was 3 meters plus but only as thick as my wrist (photo here -> http://150.101.58.70/thumbnails.php?id=Snake_Carpet_Python&num=02 ). I would just like to see a photo of an animal that is regarded by others as obese


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## NCHERPS (Nov 5, 2003)

Alot of you might have seen this photo before, it is of a 13 yr old Burmese python called 'Baby', privately owned by an American bloke called Loius, he has a huge basement viv set up for the snake.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/module...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Some might call this snake overweight compared with what a 20ft wild one might look like however, I would not call it Obese. One HUUUGGGGEEEE snake!

He feeds it chickens, not sure why he uses a small food source, maybe because they are leaner than pigs!! LOL!
Fuscus, I know it's not a photo of what you are looking for, just thought it was interesting!

Cheers,
Neil


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## +Gecko~Gaze+ (Nov 5, 2003)

> snakes jaws dislocate?...didnt realise they would fuse together....if yours has to dislocate its jaw belle i`d take it to a vet asap, coz mine just has ligaments holding the jaw which stretch *shrug*



Thats what I meant...Came out wrong


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## Fuscus (Nov 5, 2003)

Your right Neil, it is a great photo. Baby now lives in a reptile park according to this web site http://www.cbreptiles.co.uk/FIRSTTIMEFrame1Source1.htm
As for feeding her chicken, well, I wouldn't feed a snake that size anything that could be mistaken for me (i.e. any large mammal) because I could then be mistaken as food.


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## NCHERPS (Nov 6, 2003)

LOL- Don't think you would have a prob unless you smelt like a pig! LOL! I know where your coming from though.

You come across very knowlegable about Reptiles, surprised this is your first snake, but I surpose knowledge comes from other places as well, not just keeping the things in captivity.

Happy Herping!

Neil


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## NoOne (Nov 6, 2003)

You would have to feed a python that large on at least rabbits, it wouldn't get enough from chickens.
I'd go small lambs.


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## NCHERPS (Nov 6, 2003)

NoOne,
You would have thought so wouldn't you, but it was chickens that the guy was feeding it, and it seemed to do pretty well on them, by the look of it anyway!


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## Slateman (Nov 6, 2003)

I have to say from my short experiance 3.5 year. 2 snakes have smaller heads compare to body. I must admit that i fed them a lot more then others and one of them is my 2.5 year old female olive 4.5 kg and 2,5 metre long.
I think that the head will eventually catch up in next 2 years.


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## Fuscus (Nov 6, 2003)

Thanks Neil, I've actually got two water pythons, a greedy eater who is the subject of this thread and a reluctent feeder. If reluctent doesn't eat then greedy gets her rat and greedy is growing a lot faster than reluctent.
Anyhow my (apparent) knowledge comes from a number of sources including lots of nature photography, a long term interest in animals and the fact I observe, not just look. I can identify most Australian birds by sight and have encountered heaps of wild coastals amongst other herps. And If I don't know something, I'll ask.


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## NCHERPS (Nov 6, 2003)

Fuscus,
Great attitude, observing isn't done enough in this Hobby!

You should start up as a guide for Tourists or people like myself, who would like to no more about the native species out here and just haven't got around to venturing out and observing what is out there.
I did ask on a previous thread once if there was anyone who ran Herp spotting/photographic trips out here, but nobody replied.

Cheers,
Neil


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## python_guy44 (Nov 6, 2003)

I was wondering is there such thing as a snake having the opposite to a pin head and having an enormous head compare to body (not a particular characteristic with a species but an abnormality or syndrome) ???

cheers, jeremy


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## NCHERPS (Nov 6, 2003)

P G,
Don't know about snakes having big heads, but know plenty of people with that Syndrome! LOL!

In all seriousness though, I haven't heard of it, some snakes do have proportionally large heads for their bodies, I'm thinking about Emerald tree boa's and GTP's, but this is normal and not a abnormality.

Neil


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## Fuscus (Nov 6, 2003)

Neil, if you want to find or photograph wild native animals the best way is to find a likely area and visit it repeatly and get to know the area. I don't know Sydney but there would be heaps of suitable areas within a couple of hours. Very early morning is best but night walks can be productive. Walk slowly and quietly and listen. You will soon learn where the animals can be found. Spring is the best time in southern Australia as most reptiles are both hungry and horny (but it is also tick season). Damp warm nights are the best to find frogs and a surprising number of other animals. If you walk alone you will see more but must be very careful (carry an EPIRB and first-aid kit.). 

Also a digtial camera is best (with rechargable batteries) and get the biggest memory card you can afford (I'm currently using a 1gb card, holds 303 photos at full resolution). With a digital camera you can't waste film and are willing to take risks. Take heaps of photos, you will proberly never get the chance again.

( Self promotion mode on )

Here is the link to my (still unfinished) web site http://150.101.58.70/ . There are some good photos there (is that a Big-head Syndrome?) 

Finally, I'm off this weekend to the flinders ranges for a photo trip. I expect to see 
Central Bearded dragons ( http://150.101.58.70/thumbnails.php?id=Dragon_Central_Bearded_Dragon )
Tawny dragons ( http://150.101.58.70/thumbnails.php?id=Dragon_Tawny_Crevice_Dragon )
Sleepies ( http://150.101.58.70/thumbnails.php?id=Skink_ShingleBack )
Flinders range skink ( http://150.101.58.70/thumbnails.php?id=Skink_Flinders_Ranges_Skink )
Eastern Blue tongue ( http://150.101.58.70/thumbnails.php?id=Skink_Blue_tougue )

Hoped for species will include Western blue tongue, Painted and netted dragons and brown snake.
REALLY hoped for animals include the thorny devils , bycycle dragon and the Flinders range carpet python (Quote from Ehmann (Aust. Museum) pale - reddish brown with with broad tranverse distinctive buff (black - edged) patchs on the back and a very proinent wide, pale lateral zone for about a third of its length).


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## NCHERPS (Nov 6, 2003)

Mark(Fuscus),
Thanks for all the info and tips, I will have to try and get on out there, hopefully sooner than later.
Love those red barred crevice dragons, the Koala shot, with him sitting on the floor is great too.

Let me know if you manage to get some shots of the Flinders range carpet and the Thorny devil.
Have a good weekend.
Neil


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## Fuscus (Nov 6, 2003)

The red-barred are fantastic animals, unfortunatly that isn't the greatest of shots. I know where there is a colony but is a fair way along a rough dirt road, and I only have a low sports car and it would cost me another exhuast system to get there.
The Koalla is a zoo shot, I'm sure he is posing.
If I get any good photos this weekend, I'll be crowing about them, that I can garrentee.


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