# debate on snakes in tubs ...



## redbellybite (Jan 16, 2011)

There is a debate going on about housing snakes in "proper" eye candy enclosures or BORING tubs ...

I have mine in tubs ,they range from 40cm long to around7-8 feet long give or take ...
Now it is true down the track my coastal carpets and water pythons will be setup in out door cages . 
I have had the smaller ones in tubs from day dot of owning them ,and my big fella was housed in a nice enclosure ,but it got broken.So at first was going to keep him only in a tub for a short while ,he was also shorter in length then and I did feel bad,as this type of topic has come up here before.
I have had him in a tub now for well and truely over a year ,due to us moving into our own place,and living in a tiny flat in our shed ,I had to keep him in there. 
He is growing,at least another half foot if not more and bulked up a bit too , and he is eating full size guniea pigs and rats ,he sheds ,craps and does all the normal stuff he did in his other enclosure as he does in his tub ...I get him out as with the others for stretches and movement and he goes out on the grass too ..his tub has two shelves one low that also has the hide underneath ,which can be removed to clean and one fixed shelf that is still cleanable ..the shelves are painted and sealed and cleaning the tubs isnt a problem ...So if they're all growing ,craping and getting their needs whats the problem? other then it not "looking " the part like eye candy enclosures.






the cabinet is 4feet long




































I even keep two waters together ...they have been kept together since I got them and were housed like that with previous owner ..just seperate to feed


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

:0 :0 :0 how could you keep your snakes in such boring enclosures you horrible horrible woman, they look so bored, mayb chuck a couple of paintings in to stimulate them, van gogh perhaps?


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## cadwallader (Jan 16, 2011)

no offence but i think that the way you keep is unfair to the snakes... IMO... at least half the people arguing the tub side on the other thread keep them in larger tubs, although i guess there are many keeper that use these size tubs...


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## snakeluvver (Jan 16, 2011)

Listen I don't think a captive snake really cares what it's enclosure looks like. As long as it's big enough I don't see a problem


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## redbellybite (Jan 16, 2011)

PROOF is in the pudding cadwallader ..snakes dont thrive if not taken care of properly ..do mine look like crud to you ?


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

cadwallader said:


> no offence but i think that the way you keep is unfair to the snakes... IMO... at least half the people arguing the tub side on the other thread keep them in larger tubs, although i guess there are many keeper that use these size tubs...


 
the coastal with the perches could do with a size upgrade but the others i see no problem with, they can move around, even up to higher levels on shelves and regulate their body temp, i see no problem with keeping like this, as many people have said pythons are generally quite lazy, I give my coastals a large enclosure but they dont use half of it, all their time is spent on their perch or in their hide so i really dont see any issue with keeping them in confined spaces. For those who argue for proof that they are happy and healthy in tubs, show me proof that they are not, show me proof they they are any better off in a large spacious enclosure.

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 01:00 AM ----------




snakeluvver said:


> Listen I don't think a captive snake really cares what it's enclosure looks like. As long as it's big enough I don't see a problem


 
and do those enclosures look big enough? Can the snake move around and regulate its temp? Do they have somewhere to hide? I think you know the answer to that

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 01:01 AM ----------

i'll also add from a hygiene point of view these are way better, not saying landscaped enclosures cant be kept clean but its alot harder then with tubs


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## redbellybite (Jan 16, 2011)

hornet Lolly is getting another tub ,just floods have put a hold on that one


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## cadwallader (Jan 16, 2011)

they look fine a healthy collection, i just think larger tubs and enclosures are better mabe not for their physical health but mental but no one can prove that ( sounds like a good phd or honours project )for the snakes but seems like i'm out numbered ha
your collection is great though.


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

The table has turned. The tubbers and rackers are on the offensive, watch out all you pro- landscape cage morons. :lol:


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

redbellybite said:


> hornet Lolly is getting another tub ,just floods have put a hold on that one


 
What did you make the shelf out of in the other coastal tub? Just timber painted then sealed?


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## cadwallader (Jan 16, 2011)

but i could be wrong maybe they are better in tubs who knows but i enjoy making nice enclosures for my animals wether they like it or not who knows.


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> The table has turned. The tubbers and rackers are on the offensive, watch out all you pro- landscape cage morons. :lol:


 
We are not saying landscaped cages are bad, they do look fantastic (some of them) but they are not essential for a healthy collection,really as long as the essentials are provided how can the animals be any worse off in tubs then they would be in a landscaped enclosure?

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 01:09 AM ----------




cadwallader said:


> but i could be wrong maybe they are better in tubs who knows but i enjoy making nice enclosures for my animals wether they like it or not who knows.


 
i dont believe they are better off in either, both setups have their advantages but i cant see how either one is better or worse


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## cadwallader (Jan 16, 2011)

S.O.S im calling out to all my "landscaping" friends to have my back in the thread hahaha

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 11:10 AM ----------




> i dont believe they are better off in either, both setups have their advantages but i cant see how either one is better or worse


i happy to settle with that


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

hornet said:


> We are not saying landscaped cages are bad, they do look fantastic (some of them) but they are not essential for a healthy collection,really as long as the essentials are provided how can the animals be any worse off in tubs then they would be in a landscaped enclosure?
> 
> Where is your sense of humor?
> This debate is pointless because at the end of the day, each of us will do what we believe is best for our snakes and for us. There is no "proof" one way or the other.


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

cadwallader said:


> S.O.S im calling out to all my "landscaping" friends to have my back in the thread hahaha
> 
> ---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 11:10 AM ----------
> 
> ...


 
good to hear  the animals are healthy and feed/shed/poop fine so why cant everyone be happy with that, if people dont like tubs they dont have to use them but no need to bag them out without any proof they they are bad  The animals are healthy that should be the only thing that matters

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 01:17 AM ----------




Waterrat said:


> hornet said:
> 
> 
> > We are not saying landscaped cages are bad, they do look fantastic (some of them) but they are not essential for a healthy collection,really as long as the essentials are provided how can the animals be any worse off in tubs then they would be in a landscaped enclosure?
> ...


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## The_Dreaded_Pets (Jan 16, 2011)

i have to agree with hornet on this 1 my jungle has a decent sized enclosure and is about to get a massive upgrade and she rarely uses any of it the ides and her perch is all that gets used really i like the look of larger enclosures and will stick with them however i have no dramas keeping hatchies / ssmaller snakes in tubs untill i can make them a home that i want them in. As long as the tubs are apropiately sized then there shouldnt be any dramas with it.


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

loonytoon said:


> she rarely uses any of it the ides and her perch is all that gets used


 
Have you tried to change the interior from time to time? Just put in a new branch with leaves on it, palm frond, tussock of grass, big handful of leaf litter (clean) few rocks and see what she does. I bet you her activity level will increase dramatically. It doesn't matter if the enclosure is huge, if it's bear or the same set up for yonks, the snake will not utilise the extra space because there is nothing the snake wouldn't know or have seen and smelled for the last few months (or whatever time). Big space does not provide stimulus. To maintain landscaped cage and frequent changes to the interior is time and labor demanding, especially for those living in big cities where branches, logs, etc,. are not easy to get. 
Some snakes will (happily?) survive, even breed in shoe boxes. That, however is no measure of success and it's up to the keeper's ethics to decide what's right and what's not. Unfortunately, some keepers will never know and I feel sorry for the snakes in their care.


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## redbellybite (Jan 16, 2011)

I am not going to lie ..when the time and money comes along and my guys get to go outside ,of course it will be more appealing to the eye and stimulating to my snakes due to the fact they will endure more outside smells and be able to get sunlight etc ,,,point was people claiming I am not being fair to my guys is total BS ..as I said I know of people that have terrible snakes in poor condition BUT HAVE VEWY PWEETY ENCWOSURES


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## battla (Jan 16, 2011)

redbellybite said:


> ...So if they're all growing ,craping and getting their needs whats the problem?


 
Wasn't that long ago most people said the same about battary hens... If a hen is unhealthy it won't lay eggs so if they are growing, crapping and laying are they getting all their needs and if so whats the problem?

I find your comments interesting after reading some of your soap box rants on how the public some how see reptiles as less than their fury counter parts, eg the keeping up with the jones thread and others. Not saying your opinion on this is wrong, as you have more experience with reptiles than me and your animals do look healthy and well cared for, obviously aren't cramped into very small tubs and get out a bit. Just interesting.

I do note that your tubs have shelves and hides and are not just the plain small box with a bit of newspaper in the bottom like the tubs in the snakebitestv vid that spark this round of debate. Obviously you feel some form of stimulus is required

It would be great to hear from the experts on whether snakes need anything other than food, water and heat to stay healthy and active.

Do we place too many human emotions on our scaly pets or do they need more to stimulate the tiny brains?


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## The_Dreaded_Pets (Jan 16, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Have you tried to change the interior from time to time? Just put in a new branch with leaves on it, palm frond, tussock of grass, big handful of leaf litter (clean) few rocks and see what she does. I bet you her activity level will increase dramatically. It doesn't matter if the enclosure is huge, if it's bear or the same set up for yonks, the snake will not utilise the extra space because there is nothing the snake wouldn't know or have seen and smelled for the last few months (or whatever time). Big space does not provide stimulus. To maintain landscaped cage and frequent changes to the interior is time and labor demanding, especially for those living in big cities where branches, logs, etc,. are not easy to get.
> Some snakes will (happily?) survive, even breed in shoe boxes. That, however is no measure of success and it's up to the keeper's ethics to decide what's right and what's not. Unfortunately, some keepers will never know and I feel sorry for the snakes in their care.



sounds interesting waterrat will definatly have to give that ago your right her setup has been the same for a good 3mnths now tho im in the middle of doing a TV cabnent conversion 2 house her and another snake so will have a go at makeing something more extravigent for that yet easilly interchangeable so i can mix her surroundings up every few mnths.


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## Wookie (Jan 16, 2011)

hornet said:


> :0 :0 :0 how could you keep your snakes in such boring enclosures you horrible horrible woman, they look so bored, mayb chuck a couple of paintings in to stimulate them, van gogh perhaps?


 
Are you seriously being that ignorant and dismissive? Environment stimulates snake behaviour!


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

battla said:


> It would be great to hear from the experts on whether snakes need anything other than food, water and heat to stay healthy and active.
> Do we place too many human emotions on our scaly pets or do they need more to stimulate the tiny brains?


 
First of all, I don't claim to be an expert of snake psychology. I don't think anyone can categorize snakes as being happy, not happy, just surviving while still looking healthy, we can't even comment on snake's mental health or mental requirements. There may even be gaps in our understanding of their physical health; feeding, crapping and moving around is not much of a indicator; a snake exhibiting those functions can keel over the next day and we would wonder why. Another question and a source of controversy is; are our snakes wild animals or are they inbred pets with lesser needs and lesser demands for a quality of life. 
Personally, I want to give them as much as I can to satisfy all the unknowns I just mentioned and by providing them with all the care (no need for love, really) others described plus recreating a piece of their natural habitat in their enclosures. In my opinion, and that's all it is - my personal opinion; food, water and shelter is not enough, it's a bear minimum for survival. It may be fine with others but I want my snakes to be more than just survivors. Please take no offence, I may be warped, over-sensitive, over- indulgent when it comes to those issues but that my privilege.


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Are you seriously being that ignorant and dismissive? Environment stimulates snake behaviour!


 
i'm not saying it doesnt but does it really have to be appealing to the eye for the snakes to be happy and healthy?


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2011)

As far as hygiene go they are great.......though if i was a snake i would like room to roam....every one to there own.....


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

hornet said:


> i'm not saying it doesnt but does it really have *to be appealing* to the eye for the snakes to be happy and healthy?


 
Yes! Not only to the eye but to it's olfactory and tactile senses.


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## hornet (Jan 16, 2011)

and why cant that be achieved in a tub?


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## Grogshla (Jan 16, 2011)

hornet said:


> and why cant that be achieved in a tub?


 
good question. I use both racks and enclosures.


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## JAS101 (Jan 16, 2011)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Are you seriously being that ignorant and dismissive? Environment stimulates snake behaviour!


 if thats the case then so would live feeding ?


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## -Matt- (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael - I'm curious as to how you keep your hatchlings and even yearlings? Do the yearlings have nice landscaped enclosures or are they in tubs? Not having a go, just interested to know.

I keep a large amount of my snakes in tubs and some in large landscaped enclosures, some are very simple with water and shelter and thats it. Tubs give just as much room to move as an enclosure would, does having a glass front really make a difference to the snakes health and well being? My snakes seem to thrive but then again they haven't told me any differently so who knows...

Some of mine...


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## JAS101 (Jan 16, 2011)

btw i keep snakes in both tubs and enclosures .


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## Grogshla (Jan 16, 2011)

Good set up Matt. I think thats a good idea for tubs.


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## Wookie (Jan 16, 2011)

redbellybite said:


> There is a debate going on about housing snakes in "proper" eye candy enclosures or BORING tubs ...
> 
> I have mine in tubs ,they range from 40cm long to around7-8 feet long give or take ...
> Now it is true down the track my coastal carpets and water pythons will be setup in out door cages .
> ...


 
First tub is too small..

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 01:31 PM ----------




Waterrat said:


> The table has turned. The tubbers and rackers are on the offensive, watch out all you pro- landscape cage morons. :lol:


 
hahahahaha! Does anybody know how smart a python is? This isn't a joke. Because I think they'd have to be the dumbest animals on the planet to not prefer a natural (ish ) environment over a plastic box with a pipe and dowel in it

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 01:32 PM ----------




loonytoon said:


> i have to agree with hornet on this 1 my jungle has a decent sized enclosure and is about to get a massive upgrade and she rarely uses any of it the ides and her perch is all that gets used really i like the look of larger enclosures and will stick with them however i have no dramas keeping hatchies / ssmaller snakes in tubs untill i can make them a home that i want them in. As long as the tubs are apropiately sized then there shouldnt be any dramas with it.


 
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Tubs are perfect TEMPORARY homes


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## Dipcdame (Jan 16, 2011)

Not 'bagging' anyone here, but with a personal need to be able to stretch out whenever I need to, the sight of large snakes in small boxes makes it look so cramped. surely they like to stretch out at will, not just when they're taken out of the box at the owners convenience?

My snakes have large enough enclosures that they aren't exactly aesthetic, but functional, and allow tree-climbers to do just that, and keep muscle tone.

I would hate to spend so much money on such beautiful creatures then keep them hidden away in boxes youcna't see or watch them in very easily!! Just my own opinion.


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## longqi (Jan 16, 2011)

For an efficient breeding system no-one has come up with anything better than plastic tubs
But most snake owners are not commercial breeders

Reptiles are beautiful animals
Does a beautiful animal deserve to be kept in a plastic box????
Would you keep your cat or dog in a plastic box???

Reptiles are just like like any other animal
So we should treat them the same way
..
.
In saying this I use aluminium/glass boxes because they are so cheap here
The display boxes in the shop are aesthetically pleasing
The breeding boxes are very simple


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## Wookie (Jan 16, 2011)

redbellybite said:


> I am not going to lie ..when the time and money comes along and my guys get to go outside ,of course it will be more appealing to the eye and stimulating to my snakes due to the fact they will endure more outside smells and be able to get sunlight etc ,,,point was people claiming I am not being fair to my guys is total BS ..as I said I know of people that have terrible snakes in poor condition BUT HAVE VEWY PWEETY ENCWOSURES


 
Odds are those keepers snakes would be in bad nick if they were kept in tubs too. This isn't an argument about poor keepers. So stop going back to that.

---------- Post added 16-Jan-11 at 01:39 PM ----------




JAS101 said:


> if thats the case then so would live feeding ?


 
I try to simulate that with a warm thawed rat. A bit of a chase then a bit of a thrash when taken


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael - I'm curious as to how you keep your hatchlings and even yearlings? Do the yearlings have nice landscaped enclosures or are they in tubs? Not having a go, just interested to know.

Matt, I mentioned earlier (maybe in the first thread) that breeders have no choice but to keep hatchlings in small tubs. I don't have to explain why but this is a temporary situation. I keep my yearlings in these cages - I hope you like them


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 16, 2011)

I keep nearly my whole collection in tubs. This ranges from neonate Death Adders to Olive Pythons and everything in between. The only exception to this is very large snakes, like Scrubs and big Carpets as well as a couple of Taipans. 

Any attempt to compare keeping endotherms in cramped conditions to keeping reptiles in tubs is irrelevant. There is obvious, proven negative behavioural and health related impacts from doing this with endotherms (such as stereotypical behaviour in laboratory rodents) - none of this happens with reptiles kept correctly in tub systems.

My snakes are healthy, due largely in part to my ability to service their enclosures regularly and quickly. They are creatures of instinct - give them warmth, food and shelter in a clean environment and they will thrive. A snake that naturally perches 10 metres off the ground is not fooled by a perch 90cm off the ground in an enclosure with painted styrofoam around it.


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## longqi (Jan 16, 2011)

There is a huge difference to a commercial breeder and someone with a few snakes
Your reptiles are NOT pets
They are part of a commercial enterprize
Everyone world wide agrees that for efficiency plastic boxes are ideal

But for private owners I tend to disagree because my snakes must be happy
That is because they are handled so regularly that they need to be both active and relaxed
I have found this is best achieved by including them in my family


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## Jdsixtyone (Jan 16, 2011)

+1 
I dont see a problem previving they have proper heat etc etc......
Jordy 


Waterrat said:


> We are not saying landscaped cages are bad, they do look fantastic (some of them) but they are not essential for a healthy collection,really as long as the essentials are provided how can the animals be any worse off in tubs then they would be in a landscaped enclosure?
> 
> Where is your sense of humor?
> This debate is pointless because at the end of the day, each of us will do what we believe is best for our snakes and for us. There is no "proof" one way or the other.


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## Waterrat (Jan 16, 2011)

Jonno, you fall into the "industry" category and so does everyone else maintaining large collection for commercial purposes. 

You mentioned the word "thriving". I am not disputing that, nor I am having a go at you (or anyone else) but would someone explain and define the meaning and the differences between snakes *thriving, being happy, doing well, healthy* and *surviving* and how do we recognise and avaluate each of those conditions? This is not silly, we seem to be arguing here about it over and over and I don't think can agree on any of it if we tried - that is silly!


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Jan 16, 2011)

It's a difficult question and IMO we shouldn't put human emotions or likes on our snakes. They dont care if it looks flash or not...Having said that there are some good arguments the other way too. It's a good point about keeping the muscle tone in particularly arboreal snakes as i'd say it would be difficult to do much hard climbing in a tub. Another thing i noticed is people saying that their snakes dont move much which is true mostly, but I know when i go into my reptile room in the middle of the night and turn the light on i Always catch the snakes out and about climbing on the vines or swimming through the water. Which leads me to the next point, i never thought a snake would love to go under water, but my diamond used to swim under water regularly holding her breath. She loved her aquarium and i'm guessing a lot of snakes would like this but most people will never know because their snakes cant do this in their enclosure. I'm not taking sides on this debate just putting forth my opinion and observations. I completely agree that you cant keep your snakes in large enclosures if you have a large collection and i'd say for the most part they would be ok in a tub. Doesnt mean they would not be better off in a larger enclosure though.


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## longqi (Jan 16, 2011)

As I was setting up in Bali most of my reptiles were initially kept in tubs for a few months
The larger snakes became much more sluggish
No real difference with the small ones except the tended to really want out when given the chance
Within one month of being put in their enclosures they became much more active

I totally agree about snakes and water
Even my chondros have swimming bowls and use them at least twice a month
The retics and burmese clamber all over the water feature in the shop
Every morning one burmese goes straight outside and climbs onto a big piece of driftwood
Stays there until we need him


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 16, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Jonno, you fall into the "industry" category and so does everyone else maintaining large collection for commercial purposes.
> 
> You mentioned the word "thriving". I am not disputing that, nor I am having a go at you (or anyone else) but would someone explain and define the meaning and the differences between snakes *thriving, being happy, doing well, healthy* and *surviving* and how do we recognise and avaluate each of those conditions? This is not silly, we seem to be arguing here about it over and over and I don't think can agree on any of it if we tried - that is silly!


 
I agree that my collection is commercially orientated but I wouldn't keep it any different if it wasn't (although when/if I ever get out of the industry I will never keep another reptile). 

I don't think it is difficult to judge whether reptiles are comfortable in their surroundings. Freshly wild caught elapids (and most other reptiles) will regularly pace their enclosures, rubbing their noses and all manor of other things. This is a sign of stress and they express it by trying to escape. If reptiles didn't feel comfortable in their enclosures they would express it - whether it's through refusing food, restlessness, aggression/defensiveness, illness, refusal to breed etc. 

In saying that, I cringe when I see 4 metre plus Burmese Pythons being kept in 6 and 8 foot long tubs. But I have done similar, keeping 2.1 metres plus Coastal Taipans in plastic tubs with a floor surface area of about 0.3m2 - and they did better in those tubs than in big top opening enclosures with a floor surface area measuring more than 10 times that!


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## D3pro (Jan 16, 2011)

I keep some snakes in tubs and some in enclosures (my greens and large carpets). 

When I first had the GTP, it was in a small tub and it didn't move much... it ate fine, temps were fine. I placed it in a rather large enclosure for it's size, and now it moves about, from spot to spot and is quite active. I observed that it prefers the lower temps at around 28 - 27 from this, and even lower at times. I would not of been able to make that observation is a small tub. 

On the flip side, I have a 7 foot jungle that was given a massive enclosure, and all it did was sit in one corner. She is a healthy jungle with a massive appetite, she just doesn't like moving and exploring much. 

Whats the point? None. There my snakes and their all healthy. How ever I keep My snakes works for me, keep your snakes how it works for you. STOP making the hobby into a religion and getting into each others business all the time. There are 100 ways of doing it right and 100 ways of doing it right. There is no perfect way, and if there was, it would be to release your animals back in the wild. 

Ha... I made an input


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## ChargerWA (Jan 16, 2011)

From a newbie perspective (dons flame suit), I cant understand why you would want to keep a reptile hidden away in a semi opaque tub. From everything I have read on here, if you don't want to stress your snake you should only handle it sparingly, so if it's in a tub how often can you interact with the snake. At least if it is in a enclosure, you can watch it moving about, or poking it's head out of a hide.

I'm not saying tub keepers are evil bad people, but wonder if that impulsive itch to have that new type of snake you have had your eye on, and the lack of funds and space some times leads to people ending up with people keeping their pets in less than ideal conditions (ignoring the obvious need for breeders and people with hatchys to use tubs).

I would be interested to see a poll, as to if people would still choose to keep their snakes in tubs if they had the space and money available to keep their snakes in enclosures. Some may, but from the apologist language of some of the people in this thread you would have to assume they would prefer to use purpose built enclosures if they could.


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## thebraddles (Jan 16, 2011)

to be honest, as long as the tubs are big enough and the snakes are getting looked after who gives a flying.


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## pythons unleashed (Jan 16, 2011)

thebraddles said:


> to be honest, as long as the tubs are big enough and the snakes are getting looked after who gives a flying.



On your side.


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## mrkos (Jan 16, 2011)

Is there anyone on here that keeps large diamond pythons successfully in cramped style tubs as shown in rbb's first post ide be interested to hear surely they need a bit more room and more of a temperature gradient i couldnt think of anything more detrimental to my pairs health than keeping them in a small tub as they love to climb and are very active?


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## cadwallader (Jan 16, 2011)

these so called debates are never going to finish as has been said we will always keep our reps the way WE think is best... 
i must say watching both my snakes right now they are both climbing over the rock wall, it makes it so much more interesting to watch...


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## firedream (Jan 16, 2011)

loonytoon said:


> i have to agree with hornet on this 1 my jungle has a decent sized enclosure and is about to get a massive upgrade and she rarely uses any of it the ides and her perch is all that gets used really i like the look of larger enclosures and will stick with them however i have no dramas keeping hatchies / ssmaller snakes in tubs untill i can make them a home that i want them in. As long as the tubs are apropiately sized then there shouldnt be any dramas with it.



This is what i do as well. Each to their own no evidence either way. But when my husband bought me a large enclosure for my carpet he absolutely loved it. Every night since christmas he is out and about utilising every square inch of the enclosure and in turn that makes me happy. i keep my hatchies in tubs but any hatchies i keep are upgraded when i think its needed. i had my carpet in a tub but hated not being able to see him like i could my stimsons. Having to open it up to have a good look at him. I don't know if space effects snakes mentally but i know keeping my snakes in a large enclosure keeps me happy mentally.


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## redbellybite (Jan 16, 2011)

Obviously Jonno and I are in the total bastard club ...I do know that Lolly needs a tub up size but due to the rain period and then flooding every where I have tried had run out of bigger tubs ..people must have been stocking up to store stuff for just in case and as you all know that happened ...so when I can up grade her size she certainly will be getting it ...as far as the others go ,like I said I now live in a small place and intend to build out door cages when the cash flow and time allows ...who knows after I put my guys in there ..I may judge you on your SMALLER INDOOR SET UPS


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## FAY (Jan 17, 2011)

I keep some of mine in tubs and some in enclosures.
They are all happy, healthy and thriving.
I tried putting some ants in enclosures, they wouldn't eat, so I had to put them back into tubs where they are eating again.
We could argue about this until the cows come home, we can agree to disagree.


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## baxtor (Jan 17, 2011)

FAY said:


> I keep some of mine in tubs and some in enclosures.
> They are all happy, healthy and thriving.
> I tried putting some ants in enclosures, they wouldn't eat, so I had to put them back into tubs where they are eating again.
> We could argue about this until the cows come home, we can agree to disagree.



Fay,did you try your ants on honey?


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jan 18, 2011)

Really thought this thread would of been a simple matter.


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## Snake-Supplies (Jan 18, 2011)

For people in Victoria...
Code of practice for the welfare of animals - Private keeping of reptiles (Victoria)

3.	Enclosures

3.1.	Sizes

*a)	The cage must be of sufficient size so as to provide enough space, both horizontally and vertically, to enable the animals to take exercise and to protect animals from undue dominance or conflict.
b)	The cage must be large enough so that there is a temperature gradient, with one end being warmer than the other to allow the animal to thermoregulate.
*
3.1.1.	Lizards	

a)	Minimum floor area for 2 adult specimens = 2.5L x 2.0L (L = length of longest specimen); for each additional specimen add 20% to the area.
b)	Lizards under 12 months of age are exempt from the space requirements in point a) above, as appropriate enclosure dimensions for such lizards can vary greatly. However, solely as a guide, up to six hatchling Bearded Dragons can be maintained in an enclosuremeasuring 60 cm long x 30 cm wide x 30 cm high, provided that these numbers are gradually reduced as the lizards grow and/or as soon as any signs of dominance-related stress become apparent. Overcrowding must be avoided at all times. These considerations notwithstanding, such lizards must still be provided with all the other conditions set out in this Code.

3.1.2.* Terrestrial snakes*

a)	For two adult specimens up to 4m in total length (L = length of longest specimen):
length = 0.45L
width = 0.375L
height = 0.25L
For each additional specimen add 20% area.
b)	Snakes under 12 months of age are exempt from the space requirements in point a) above, as appropriate enclosure dimensions for such snakes can vary greatly. However, solely as a guide, up to six hatchling snakes can be maintained in an enclosure measuring 60 cm long x 30 cm wide x 30 cm high, provided that these numbers are gradually reduced as the snakes grow and/or as soon as any signs of dominance-related stress become apparent. Overcrowding must be avoided at all times. These considerations notwithstanding, such snakes must still be provided with all the other conditions set out in this Code.

3.1.3.	_Arboreal snakes_

a)	For two adult specimens up to 4 m in total length (L = length of longest specimen):
length = 0.45L
width = 0.3L
height = 0.5L
For each additional specimen add 20% area.
b)	Snakes under 12 months of age are exempt from the space requirements in point a) above, as appropriate enclosure dimensions for such snakes can vary greatly. However, solely as a guide, up to six hatchling pythons can be maintained in an enclosure measuring 60 cm long x 30 cm wide x 30 cm high, provided that these numbers are gradually reduced as the snakes grow and/or as soon as any signs of dominance-related stress become apparent. Overcrowding must be avoided at all times. These considerations notwithstanding, such snakes must still be provided with all the other conditions set out in this Code.

3.1.4.	Freshwater turtles – Family Chelidae

a)	Australian freshwater turtles must be provided with sufficient water to cover the animals and provide sufficient room for exercise (minimum of 30 cm depth). An additional area of ground surface must be provided to allow a dry basking site, with a temperature of 28–32C.
b)	A gently sloping floor, or other appropriate means, must be provided to enable the animals to enter/exit the water to their basking site.
c)	Water temperature must be thermostatically controlled within the naturally occurring temperature ranges on a daily, and preferably seasonal, basis. Recommended water temperatures of 24–28C are suitable for tropical species, 22–26C for temperate species.

3.1.5.	Crocodiles

a)	For small specimens (up to 25 cm total length), up to two specimens can be maintained in an enclosure measuring 60 cm long x 30 cm wide x 30 cm high.
b)	For all specimens, the pond must be at least twice the length of the largest specimen and have a width at least as great as the length of the largest specimen
c)	The pool must be deep enough for the largest specimen to submerge completely and swim freely.
d)	An additional area of dry land must be provided, which is at least as long and wide as the length of the largest specimen, and which has a basking site with a temperature of 30–33C.
e)	It is recommended that only crocodiles up to a total length of 2.5 m are kept. Applications to keep larger specimens should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

3.2.	Outdoors 

a)	Outdoor enclosures are usually only suitable for species from a similar climatic region to that of the enclosure location, as they provide a natural regime of climatic and seasonal conditions.
b)	Outdoor enclosures must not be dug below ground level unless there is provision of adequate drainage, notwithstanding clause c), because of the possibility of flooding or muddy conditions following rain.
c)	The walls of outdoor enclosures must be constructed of smooth, non-climbable barriers and should continue into the ground not less than 50 cm to prevent reptiles from escaping by climbing or burrowing out. The walls of the enclosure should be of sufficient height to prevent escape. A 45 return, angled inwards on the top of the wall, will also help prevent climbing reptiles from escaping.
d)	Shrubs must not be placed close to the enclosure walls, but situated away from them to prevent reptiles from escaping.
e)	Enclosures must be constructed so as to prevent unsupervised people from contacting the animals contained within.
f)	Outdoor enclosures must:
provide access to direct sunlight throughout the day;
provide adequate hiding facilities for all reptiles housed within;
provide adequate shade at all times of the day;
be well drained to prevent the accumulation of water and facilitate dehydration of the substrate;
provide areas which are permanently covered and dry.
g)	Crocodiles should not be kept completely outdoors in Victoria. They may be kept in a situation which is partly outdoors provided they have ready access to shelter and appropriate heating.
h)	Enclosures must be designed to facilitate ease of maintenance and keeper safety/access.

3.3.	Indoors 

a)	Indoor enclosures provide a greater degree of environmental control than outdoor enclosures, thereby allowing less hardy animals to be kept.
b)	Cage walls, floor and fittings shall be made of impervious materials that can be efficiently disinfected and cleaned.
c)	Indoor enclosures shall be escape-proof and:
have all ventilation holes securely screened;
have all doors and lids fitted with latches, hooks or clasps to securely fasten the door or lid;
be designed to facilitate ease of maintenance and keeper safety;
have smooth walls to reduce the likelihood of injury.

3.3.1.	Temperature

a)	Reptiles are ectothermic and maintain their preferred body temperature through behavioural means, such as the selection of micro-environments so that heat gain or loss occurs as required. Reptile activity, physiological functions and feeding occur within a narrow range of the species’ preferred body temperature. Consequently, it is critical that optimal body temperatures be accommodated by the creation of a thermal gradient across the floor of the enclosure for terrestrial reptiles, or the depth of the enclosure for arboreal species. 

Therefore, a heat source shall be provided within each reptile enclosure sufficient to provide the opportunity for effective thermo-regulation.
b)	Heating devices must be designed and positioned so that parts of the enclosure floor are not heated, thereby providing a range of temperatures.

A daytime temperature gradient of 25–30C will accommodate the thermal requirements for the majority of species. Natural daily and seasonal variations should be provided.
c)	Temperature readings must be taken regularly at the site where the reptile spends substantial amounts of time, or be constantly monitored using a maximum–minimum thermometer to ensure that extremes of temperature are prevented. Heating sources must be thermostatically controlled to remove the potential for overheating.
d)	_Light globes, exposed heatpads, aquarium heaters, or other heat sources must be designed and constructed to prevent access by reptiles, if there is a possibility of the animals being burnt_.
e)	Water temperature in enclosures where crocodiles are held should be within the range of 26–28C.

3.3.2.	Ventilation

Adequate ventilation, sufficient to allow movement of air without causing a draught, is essential in reducing humidity, and consequently fungal and bacterial infections. Air exchange and circulation within the enclosure should be supplemented by control of ventilation within the room as a whole.

3.3.3.	Humidity

a)	Suitable humidity is essential for reptile husbandry. In their natural habitat reptiles are adapted to micro-climates that are very different from those perceived by humans.
b)	Diurnal desert species require a relative humidity of 50%, while 50–70% relative humidity is suitable for most coastal and montane species. Snake species found in humid tropical environments require a relative humidity greater than 60%. However, the accumulation of moisture should be avoided as humidity extremes and constant contact with wet substrates cause respiratory and skin infections in reptiles.
c)	Where live plants are used to decorate the exhibit, care must be taken to ensure that the relative humidity does not become excessively high. Artificial plants may be used as an alternative.
d)	Floor substrate may also be adjusted to vary humidity.

3.3.4.	Lighting
a)	Reptiles must be provided with a light cycle that allows for the normal physiological functioning and behaviour of the species.
b)	Where reptiles, particularly diurnal lizards, tortoises and crocodilians, are not exposed to unfiltered natural sunlight, lighting must include an ultraviolet spectrum due to the known importance of ultraviolet light in the absorption and synthesis of certain vitamins and minerals. Nocturnal or fossorial reptiles are exempt from this requirement.
c)	Lighting must be as unobtrusive as possible. It should allow for seasonal variation to stimulate breeding behaviour if required.
d)	Most reptiles respond to local photoperiod and therefore lighting should be restricted during the day to allow the natural arrival of dawn and dusk. Where there is insufficient natural light to allow this, it is preferable that a regular day/night light cycle similar to local conditions be provided. Alternatively, not less than 8 hours lighting shall be provided daily.


*5.	Cage furniture*

a)	The interior design of enclosures must be consistent with the environmental needs of the inhabitants.
b)	A basking site, such as a rock slab or log, should be provided under the heat source in all reptile enclosures.
c)	Snakes must be provided with a rough object, such as a rock or log, to provide a sloughing aid.
d)	The enclosure should be landscaped to allow for the reptile(s) to feel secure. This may involve a hollow log, shelter box, plant pot or angled piece of bark or rock. These should not be located in an area at the low end of the temperature range. They may be positioned in such a way as to allow the reptile(s) to still be seen by the keeper.
e)	Where semi-aquatic reptiles are kept, such as turtles and crocodiles, a dry area must be provided to allow the reptiles to dry out.
f)	*Climbing branches must be provided for arboreal species.*
g)	Where a reptile is allowed to hibernate, adequate facilities must be provided to:
keep the animals dry and out of draughts;
keep the temperature above the species’ minimum;
allow regular checks, while keeping handling to a minimum.
Is this the end?


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## Waterrat (Jan 18, 2011)

I am either missing something or this is a nonsense. Looking at arboreal snakes; if L = 1 metre (an average length of s GTP), does it mean you can keep it in a 0.5 metre high cage? How is it going to climb in 0.5 m vertical space?


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jan 18, 2011)

Dosent matter we arnt down south


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## Waterrat (Jan 18, 2011)

It does matter - our snakes may end up down south.


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jan 18, 2011)

Yep let's make that an argument as well. 
I was obviously being sarcastic.


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## Jay84 (Jan 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> It does matter - our snakes may end up down south.



Lots of people keep arboreal snakes in enclosures 2 foot high (60cm), only 10cm difference to 0.5m (50cm).

What is the problem with this? You can easily have perches situated at different heights in an enclosure 50 - 60cm high.


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## Waterrat (Jan 18, 2011)

Jay, have you ever seen an adult chondro in natural ambush position? In a 45 high gave, it would have its nose on the ground.
What's the problem?


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## sammie-leigh (Jan 18, 2011)

wow, another one of these threads. You just can't win. You can't really debate opinion, as well you can argue it, so we will all be going round in circles chasing our tails on this one trying to better someone elses opinion. always fun.

But, at the moment we have 3 jungles and a murray darling, the murray darling is about 3 or so years old and has her own enclosure, the three jungles are about 2 and are in large tubs with various branches and bits of dowel for them to climb on, as as well as a place to hide and a water bowl, they have plenty of room for their size to move around or sit in a corner, whichever they would prefer.

I am not planning on keeping my jungles in tubs for their whole lives, i am in the process of planning an enclosure for them, but if i am going to put my snakes in an enclosure its going to be a good one, whether i build it or buy it, its not going to be something half hearted or quickly put together if it doesn't need to be, my snakes mean a lot to me (if they needed to be put somewhere bigger because they were showing signs of stress then i certainly would), they are all healthy and happy where they are at the present time, and will be relocated to a larger environment when it can be afforded and is ready for them.

But that is my personal opinion on the topic...please don't hate on it...its only an opinion...


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## Waterrat (Jan 18, 2011)

Sammie-leigh, Why can't you debate opinion, that's exactly what you have done - you posted your opinion, hopefully, you won't mind if others debate it. This is not about winning, it's about posting as many opinions as people may have, so when a newbie wants to build an enclosure for their jungles, murray darlings or chondros, they can see the cons and pros in these arguments and make their decisions.
Obviously, I am advocating for spacious, landscaped enclosures, others prefer tubs, etc.. No one is going to win in this thread. The winner will be the person who makes the right choice and here is plenty to choose from (in way of ideas and opinions).


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## Snake-Supplies (Jan 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I am either missing something or this is a nonsense. Looking at arboreal snakes; if L = 1 metre (an average length of s GTP), does it mean you can keep it in a 0.5 metre high cage? How is it going to climb in 0.5 m vertical space?


 
I agree with you there, I think it should be at least .75 of the length of the snake high.
but, this is the minimal requirements on keeping them healthy and happy I assume.


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## sammie-leigh (Jan 18, 2011)

waterrat i completaly understand where you are coming from, and my first statement probably didnt come out on the screen they way it was supposed to when i was thinking it in my head..mistake i make frequently...but oh well...no one is perfect..
but go ahead and argue my opinion, doesnt really phase me...


To be honest i prefer and always have prefered having reptiles in an enclosure, if i was a reptile i would prefer to be in an enclosure that is a bit more spacious and natural looking. although they are more expensive i feel that they are a good investment into my reptiles life and well being, as well as allowing me to view my reptile through the glass, whether its watching it climb or watching it sit in the corner.
However, for me personally, i have a thing against doing things half heartedly or just a quick rough job on something, mainly because it means i usually have to either continue to fix it or do it again, so i like to do things right the first time, so an enclosure for me is a big investment and like i said i want them to be as viewable to the human eye, and as appealing to my pythons as possible (i do think they can tell the difference between a tub and an enclosure, they aren't silly).

But for the time being it means using the handy services of large tubs and bit of dowel, to make as livable and likable environment for them as possible.

i have no issues with either enclosures or tubs...they both are very appealing in their own way.


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## -Peter (Jan 18, 2011)

FAY said:


> I keep some of mine in tubs and some in enclosures.
> They are all happy, healthy and thriving.
> I tried putting some ants in enclosures, they wouldn't eat, so I had to put them back into tubs where they are eating again.
> We could argue about this until the cows come home, we can agree to disagree.


 

The big question though is, "When the cows do come home Fay, will you keep them in a tub, enclosure or are you one of these natural setting people?"


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## cris (Jan 18, 2011)

IMO those tubs are a too small, whenever i have had snakes in enclosures that small they constantly try to get out(when raising snakes and not changing as soon as would be ideal) and its definately not a way i would be comfortable keeping a snake for an extended period. When kept in tubs a bit bigger(by chance they are pretty close to code of practice guidelines) i rarely if ever notice them trying to get out.

Im not really sure how to say this but just because a snake doesnt get sick and die doesnt mean it has good quality of life. It also takes many years if not decades for potential problems to show up, lack of exercise and being stuck in direct contact faeces are 2 issues that i can think of that may cause problems in extremely small tubs.


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## mrkos (Jan 18, 2011)

IMO snakes especially larger adults do not need fancy enclosures with the full landscape they do however need space to move all my adults are in 1200 long by 1500 high and they absolutely love it. They may spend a week or two at a time holed up in their box digesting or in shed but when they are hungry which is most of the time they are extremely active and will peruse their multiple leveled enclosure most of the night during the warmer months of the year. There is nothing wrong with tubs so long as the snakes size suits them.


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## redbellybite (Jan 24, 2011)

Just wanted to let you lot know that LOLLY got her new much bigger tub ...finally they had them in stock ...and as was thougt the bigger tubs got bought out in the flood panic ..so now all of my guys n girls are in suitable BORING but very FUNCTIONAL tubs ..thankyou starmaid


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## mysnakesau (Jan 24, 2011)

I have tubs and enclosures. My enclosures are decked out but more so to suit the snake than to look pretty - few branches, hides and big water bowl, and breeders choice bedding. I had to downsize my yearling bredli's back to tubs because they were enjoying escaping their new, spacious enclosure. I had a heatmat cord sticking through the door but I thought the doors being rather tight to open, they wouldn't get out but they did. I was really lucky my husband came home from work at 2am and barged in our bedroom and yelled at me that I have two snakes on the run. Found one under the fridge, and the other coiled up around the cord of our incubator. I just had a heatpanel made for their enclosure and my hubby installed it for me. They are back in their enclosure minus the gaps to get out.

I for one like to see snakes in spacious containers. Research tells me snakes don't like and don't care about being confined. I still find it difficult believing this when I see a big snake in a little tub. BUT, I am not critical of one or the other. So long as the animal is well looked after you can't complain about that.


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## Dipcdame (Jan 25, 2011)

There's a few of you on this thread who have said they have their snakes in tubs, but will put them in larger enclosures when they can afford it, or when time allows - my question is this, why didn't you wait till you COULD afford a proper enclosure, or when you DO have time??

As with anything, I am sure that our scaly babies appreciate the opportunity to be able to stretch out to full length occasionally. Large dogs aren't advised unless one has the ROOM for them to move about, we are advised to get a smaller dog to accommodate, it should be the same with snakes and reptiles. Personally, I would find it awfully uncomfortable to be stuck in an area thats far too small for me, not only claustrophobic, but would stiffen joints etc, and make movement uncomfortable and even impossible after a while! There have been cases of snakes kept in boxes where they couldn't stretch out developing problems with their spine.

As with dogs, the size that you get should reflect the size of the environment you are prepared to give it, hence, larger snakes require larger areas, not stupid fiddly boxes. As a friend said to me in conversation last night, anyone too lazy to provide a proper area for an animal (ANY animal) to move around and be able to stretch out should be shot, and I'm inclined to agree.


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## getarealdog (Jan 25, 2011)

If you get bored build a outdoor pit/avairy "playpen" & depending on temperatures & species kept throw them outside for some hours of daylight & see if they like the experience. Might be good, might not be good, give it a go & find out for yourself.


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## redbellybite (Jan 26, 2011)

As with what the title of the thread says DEBATE ...so wether your for or against ,you have pointed out your views and as a tub user ,I can see your point of views and what suits you ,some have made valid points ,some as usual type crap ,but overall we all agree on one thing WE LOVE OUR SNAKES and caring for them is a priority ..wether they live in a mansion or just a single bedder as long as their needs are met ,thats what is important ..


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## atothej09 (Jan 26, 2011)

Tubbers vs Cagers....lol
Why can't we all just get along?....
I am still waiting for someone to prove to me a GOD exists... as if I'm going to put all my faith in a book,...I don't think so.


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## wiz-fiz (Jan 27, 2011)

I've approched this from an essay kind of point, but CBF putting in cons of each.
In the other thread some1 said something about asthetics. And in my opinion thats all it is. And in general (massive blanket statement here, from experience of cleaning my room  ) most things that look good take ALOT of time. Tubs dont have as much glamour but they do the job. Also If you have a tub that is 3ft*2ft*2ft or watever, why cant you house an adult stimsons in it? The only difference i can see is the asthetuics and the amount of time put in.
On another note, if you have snakes coz you think they are cool and yiou like how they feel on your skin, why would you have a display enclosure, when you can minimise effort put into the enclosure and maximise handling and enjoyment. But if you have snakes coz you think they look cool, you would have a massive display enclosure with a really nice trophy snake in it.
does that make sense? PM me if it doesn't 
I'm honestly niether for nor against cages or tubs, both have pros both have cons. But I would keep say one or something of my few fav species in a really nice display cabinet where everyone can look at them, and the rest in my room in newspaper bottom, no background, bay cages, or big tubs.

just my 2c 


Will


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## daniel1234 (Jan 27, 2011)

I like to look at my snakes and this is really the reason I use enclosures. When you consider where snakes spend most of their time, tubs don't seem to bad. I know I will proberbly keep my elapids in tubs, but then again I hardly handle my snakes now so it would be good to see them.


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