# Keep it clean



## MissBree (Sep 20, 2011)

First off i'll say that i'm not 100% sure where to put this so i'm sorry if its in the wrong place.

Now i'll get onto the real topic. I'm fairly new to this site and also fairly new to keeping reptiles, what gets me is when i first found this site i was thrilled to have a place to come with any questions and to read about other peoples stories and animals, and it was great to hear about other newbies asking for help instead of trying to tough it out on thier own. Lately I've noticed that at least one person on every thread has posted uneccesary unhelpful and sometimes just plain mean/rude comments.

What bothers me is that this should be a place to ask for help or to discuss things that people either would like to know about and dont, but after reading so many people ripping into other people for asking for advice it makes me scared to ask for help. 

I know I'll probably have a few negative comments from people who i've upset with this post but I feel that it needs to be said.

If i feel like this after reading other peoples posts i can imagine how it would feel to be personally ripped into when asking for help.

I know alot of people wont read this because its a novel but i hope that some people do and that this site can become a happy place where people feel confident that they wont get ripped into for asking for help. We all want the best for our animals and dont you think that this would be more achievable if people werent scared to ask for advice?


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## Bel03 (Sep 20, 2011)

Well said. Ive said similiar in response to some of the negative comments u are referring to! The unfortunate thing is that some people really do just know everything  & whats worse is that instead of using all their 'knowledge' to actually HELP someone they much prefer belittling those of us that are not 'gods'. It will never stop, these people are everywhere! You just have to learn to ignore, there are alot of people on here that are very helpful, & do offer actual advice, the longer you are here the quicker you will learn who the 'good guys' are.


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## Colin (Sep 20, 2011)

If you feel anyone has broken the sites rules use the black triangle icon underneath the post and it will be forwarded to the moderators section where we will look at it. The Herp Help forum is meant to be a helpful forum where there's no flaming allowed so its best to ask your questions there.


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## starr9 (Sep 20, 2011)

Agreed! And Bel711 is right, you just have to remember that some ppl like to put others down as it makes them feel better. But it is only 1 out of 50 who are like this! Their are so many good helpful people on here!!!!


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## thomasssss (Sep 20, 2011)

i know wat you mean im new as well and although haven't had anything negative said to me i have read it one guy coped heaps for asking some simple breeding questions another for taking on a sick diamond python that wasn't eating all i have to say to those people is why bother being on trhis site go down to the pub and have a fight it seems they need to vent some anger


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## gosia (Sep 20, 2011)

Well done MissBree! You beat me to it!!! I think a lot of poeple have forgoten what it fees like to get your first snake and all the "SILLY" (like some people say) questions.

So what if a question have been asked over and over again - if it bugs you simply dont comment! I am sure someone else will be more than happy to answer that question.

And really there is no need for rude comments and putting people down just because they asked a question or do something that YOU consider a NO NO!!! Obviously they didn't know any better and asked us for help and opinions!

So lets play nice people :lol:


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## MissBree (Sep 20, 2011)

To the people who genuinely want to help each other, and to the ones who are still fairly new but try to help anyway, I thank you. You are the people that make this site work and without you alot of us would have nowhere to turn with our questions. keep up the good work because there are some of out here who do genuinely appreciate what you do. You dont have to help but you do anyway, if the whole world was full of people like you it would be a much better place to live.


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## ianinoz (Sep 20, 2011)

MissBree said:


> First off i'll say that i'm not 100% sure where to put this so i'm sorry if its in the wrong place.
> 
> Now i'll get onto the real topic. I'm fairly new to this site and also fairly new to keeping reptiles, what gets me is when i first found this site i was thrilled to have a place to come with any questions and to read about other peoples stories and animals, and it was great to hear about other newbies asking for help instead of trying to tough it out on thier own. Lately I've noticed that at least one person on every thread has posted uneccesary unhelpful and sometimes just plain mean/rude comments.
> 
> ...



I've been on the recieving of that kind of trolling too. I had cause to report one chap and put him on my ignore list.

IMO his comments were out of order and rather than being helpful as most people seem to be, he went out of his way to try to be nasty and patronising. (I don't care if he's a breeder (of an entirely different species of reptile to that I'm interested in)).

I've learnt through experience that you are better off asking if you don't know the answer than muddling through - when I had cadets and jrs working for me on projects and devt work I told them there is no such thing as a stupid question. I was also lucky when I was starting out in my career that my snrs had the same approach . 

I've also learnt that the best way of dealing the type of poster you mention is to report them and add them to your ignore list and move on. Don't let a few bad apples who have poor attitudes and who are know alls spoil your experience here. Everyone starting off in a new hobby is in the same boat and I hope this is one of the prime reasons this excellent board was established (kudos to the person who did that).



gosia said:


> Well done MissBree! You beat me to it!!! I think a lot of poeple have forgoten what it fees like to get your first snake and all the "SILLY" (like some people say) questions.
> 
> So what if a question have been asked over and over again - if it bugs you simply dont comment! I am sure someone else will be more than happy to answer that question.
> 
> ...



Exactly.... Couldn't agree more.


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 20, 2011)

Get used to it and/or ignore it.
This site while very helpfull and a source of valuable information is also a source of entertainment for many and while the moderators do a good job of keeping on top of out of control threads (sometimes to my great dissapointment) they can't be on top of everything all of the time and you will continue to come across comments that you find dissapointing.

The choice is yours to participate or not but don't get to thinking this thread will have much effect on future content and comments.


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## Australis (Sep 20, 2011)

MissBree said:


> Lately I've noticed that at least one person on every thread has posted uneccesary unhelpful and sometimes just plain mean/rude comments.



I have to respectfully disagree on the "lately" bit, APS has always been exactly the same. Ive been a member on APS for over 5 years. Ive seen this thread topic pop up at least on average every six months. It always goes the same way someone starts a thread, a chorus of new members (usually less than 12months) rally behind the cause of the newbies. But give these same members another look in 6 months and they are the ones "attacking" newbies, i call these the stage2-newb. And so the cycle of forum life continues  and comes full circle.


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## gosia (Sep 20, 2011)

Australis said:


> I have to respectfully disagree on the "lately" bit, APS has always been exactly the same. Ive been a member on APS for over 5 years. Ive seen this thread topic pop up at least on average every six months. It always goes the same way someone starts a thread, a chorus of new members (usually less than 12months) rally behind the cause of the newbies. But give these same members another look in 6 months and they are the ones "attacking" newbies, i call these the stage2-newb. And so the cycle of forum life continues  and comes full circle.



sooooo agree.....


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## saximus (Sep 20, 2011)

Australis said:


> I have to respectfully disagree on the "lately" bit, APS has always been exactly the same. Ive been a member on APS for over 5 years. Ive seen this thread topic pop up at least on average every six months. It always goes the same way someone starts a thread, a chorus of new members (usually less than 12months) rally behind the cause of the newbies. But give these same members another look in 6 months and they are the ones "attacking" newbies, i call these the stage2-newb. And so the cycle of forum life continues  and comes full circle.


Reminds me of this: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat-39/evolution-apser-107231/


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## MissBree (Sep 20, 2011)

I understand that is completely up to me to participate in this site and i know that this thread wont make much difference in the long run but i just wanted to voice my opinion. I havent been here long so i can only go by what i've seen personally.

I grew up with the saying "if you dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all" and i guess its stuck with me. I know that some of the other users might feel the same about the way some people talk to each other and i hope that by us being nice it will eventually become contagious.

If we take enough little steps towards positivity then one day everyone might surprise us all


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## saximus (Sep 20, 2011)

MissBree said:


> ...i hope that by us being nice it will eventually become contagious.


 
Not on the internets it won't


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## KaotikJezta (Sep 20, 2011)

Australis said:


> I have to respectfully disagree on the "lately" bit, APS has always been exactly the same. Ive been a member on APS for over 5 years. Ive seen this thread topic pop up at least on average every six months. It always goes the same way someone starts a thread, a chorus of new members (usually less than 12months) rally behind the cause of the newbies. But give these same members another look in 6 months and they are the ones "attacking" newbies, i call these the stage2-newb. And so the cycle of forum life continues  and comes full circle.


I have noticed that once people celebrate their first year on the site they start getting cocky and are all of a sudden experts on everything and some get very nasty.


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## MissBree (Sep 20, 2011)

Touche` Saximus


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## starr9 (Sep 20, 2011)

saximus said:


> Reminds me of this: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat-39/evolution-apser-107231/



Lol! so good that made my day!


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## KaotikJezta (Sep 20, 2011)

saximus said:


> Reminds me of this: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat-39/evolution-apser-107231/


That was a great thread, sums up most if not all online forums.


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## Red-Ink (Sep 20, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I have noticed that once people celebrate their first year on the site they start getting cocky and are all of a sudden experts on everything and some get very nasty.



First year... try as soon as they get 1000 post.


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## gosia (Sep 20, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> First year... try as soon as they get 1000 post.



in that case 2 more posts for you and you're a gonna hahahaha :lol:


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## saximus (Sep 20, 2011)

Bree it doesn't take long before you learn how/what to ask so that you don't cop as much crap. It's unfortunate but that seems to be how life on forums is. Also not all of us are evil meanies (although we all have our bad days)


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## waruikazi (Sep 20, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> First year... try as soon as they get 1000 post.



And after they've become a jerk for a while they disappear off the forum. Either courtesy of the mods or cause they get bored with the hobby.


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## KaotikJezta (Sep 20, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> First year... try as soon as they get 1000 post.


Yeah your probably right, I've just noticed a few year ones of late.


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## Red-Ink (Sep 20, 2011)

gosia said:


> in that case 2 more posts for you and you're a gonna hahahaha :lol:




Sweeeeet... I've been here for nearly three years now waiting to be an expert lol.


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## Australis (Sep 20, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> And after they've *become a jerk* for a while they disappear off the forum. Either courtesy of the mods or cause they get bored with the hobby.



What are we still doing here then gordo?


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## starr9 (Sep 20, 2011)

Id just like to say thank you to Miss Bree for starting this and for everyone who has helped me (a newbie!) out! If you dont ask you will never learn I say!


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## Ramsayi (Sep 20, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I have noticed that once people celebrate their first week on the site they start getting cocky and are all of a sudden experts on everything and some get very nasty.



Fixed.


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## thepythonguy (Sep 20, 2011)

ha ha I will never be an expert been here for a little while don't bother posting just like to read the information


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## killimike (Sep 20, 2011)

I agree that sometimes responses to people's questions could be less prickly, but it has to be said, some of the questions are ridiculous. And I say this as a complete newbie, really. But a newbie that can read....

I was gonna chuck in an eg, but I'm fearful of being labelled a hater for railing on people who preface an extremely easily answered Q with 'I have done heaps of research, but...' or offer advice qualified by '... but I have never kept a snake so I really don't know'


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## waruikazi (Sep 20, 2011)

I put it down to boredom. 



Australis said:


> What are we still doing here then gordo?


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## CrystalMoon (Sep 20, 2011)

I am still very much a newbie, I think it is really only human nature(unfortunately)to be a tad critical and judgmental. It is just part and parcel of a forum's members. I dont like how some others answer posts but figure that we all need to learn and we can always ignore what is written if it upsets us. Sometimes things are read harsher than what they are meant too. I guess being a newbie I am more inclined to feel sorry for us if we seem to be given a hard time, I kinda hope that never changes even once I am a grown up member(1 year poster) I havent been given too much of a hard time.....and I am probably the sites serial pest LOL ahhh but I "likes" every-one lol


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## traceylee (Sep 20, 2011)

Well and truly a newbie here! But I can honestly say that I have never replied to anyone's post on past forums (from my previous hobby; which I was heavily involved in since a child) in the manner of some I have seen here. Nor do I consider myself an expect of said hobby either. But I just work on the basis of if I don't like it - I ignore it.

That said; yes - I have asked plenty of questions, but am very greatful to have received plenty of positive comments in return. I do try and do some searching prior to asking, but it's not always completely relevant or can be somewhat confusing with the different responses. But I do think a lot of what I have seen is a tad on the harsh side. I don't tend to make it my business (other than now ) as I have only been here a very short while. But I also do think that it unfortunely goes with the whole 'forum' thing - you get it on the vast majority of them. 

My 2 cents  Going back to the constructive stuff now!


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## Bluetonguesblack (Sep 20, 2011)

Keep up the pestering crystal, i like your style. And when i grow up i wanna drive a fire truck ,or a tractor.


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## ianinoz (Sep 20, 2011)

That said, some other message boards I frequent make this place look very tame indeed wrt baiting, flaming and personal attacks.

Some people I am sure get their rocks off by baiting and flaming and personally attacking other people (and it's usually the noob that cops it). Sometimes the admins and mods are amongst the worse of the worse (trolls) and frequently vendor members get away with murder because the admins and mods want to keep them on side. Just saying.

Please don't let this board ever decend to having such behaviour.


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## Waterrat (Sep 20, 2011)

It's kind of easy and it often feels good to have dig at someone, perhaps make a rude comment but there is an amazing transformation in expression and conduct when you meet the person face to face. I found some of my biggest enemy here to be actually very nice people in real life. The cyberspace is screwing us, that's for sure.


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## alrightknight (Sep 20, 2011)

Superiority I guess. And I think some people just get angry because a lot of questions come up have been covered before (im guilty of asking already answered questions). I hate when people say use the search function. for some thats easy, but others aren't so computer literate and probably couldn't use it if they there life depended on it. Hell, ive had times when people have said a topic has been overdone, but when I search it I find nothing, or its 3 years old and if you need something confirmed you really dont want to dig up old threads.

But at the end of the day this is the internet, and more specificly a forum, people have the saftey of being on the other side of the country, and nothing will ever change.


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## Heelssss (Sep 20, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I have noticed that once people celebrate their first year on the site they start getting cocky and are all of a sudden experts on everything and some get very nasty.



AMEN to this post!!! This is so true, i recently posted a thread that i needed advise (help) with my blue tongues mating issues AND BAMMMMMMMMMM, experts popped up everywhere stating what i was doing was wrong. THAT is why we post on here so we can ask questions with members that have had a similiar issue. ( **** venting ****)


Thumbs up Miss Bree , good on you for posting this thread.


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## GeckoJosh (Sep 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> It's kind of easy and it often feels good to have dig at someone,


You know what they say, if it feels good then do it! lol


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## mje772003 (Sep 20, 2011)

I think if its not already in the site rules respect others as everyone is as different levels of knowledge and learning. The other thing i would say is (an old saying) " If you can't say anything nice and constructive/helpful don't say anything at all"


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## vampstorso (Sep 20, 2011)

more than people posting nasty/snarky comments, I get annoyed by the people who do it ALL the frickin time to people...and then the moment someone is PARTIALLY unfriendly too them, they have the biggest sook "I didn't ask to be flamed! I didn't ask to be flamed!!!!!"...then stop doing it to other people?

of course it's never nice for people to be nasty for no reason...but I can handle it better if they don't whinge when it happens too them back.
...Don't dish it if ya can't take it.


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## elogov (Sep 20, 2011)

Well sometimes a stupid question is only subject for a stupid answer, I think some of you have forgotten how easily this hatefulness can be stopped just by clicking on the top right corner of the window( Or the left if your using a mac.).


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## Waterrat (Sep 20, 2011)

I am confused. Some say "there is no such thing as a stupid question" yet so many threads start with "I suppose this is a stupid question".  Enlighten me please.

If only people thought first what they want to write and how to best put it before attacking the keyboard. It would even prevent some not-so-nice replies out of frustration.


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## Heelssss (Sep 20, 2011)

elogov said:


> Well sometimes a stupid question is only subject for a stupid answer, I think some of you have forgotten how easily this hatefulness can be stopped just by clicking on the top right corner of the window( Or the left if your using a mac.).



Disagree, if theres a question been thrown out there in the threads its because somebody is unsure of the answer or just plain doesnt know it. Not because they want to start a bimbo thread!


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## elogov (Sep 20, 2011)

fangs01 said:


> Disagree, if theres a question been thrown out there in the threads its because somebody is unsure of the answer or just plain doesnt know it. Not because they want to start a bimbo thread!



Definitely not disagreeing with you fond believer of "rather be safe then sorry",But that's not to say there isn't threads where the OP-er answers there own question within the question or disagrees with the advice given.


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## Heelssss (Sep 20, 2011)

true elogov, peace


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## Wally (Sep 20, 2011)

I now find everyday life can be rude, intolerant, impatient, angry and thankless. When someone goes out of their way to help me, uses manners or just smiles, I'm almost a little overwhelmed. Please and thank you are for free, and they'll get you everywhere.


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## FAY (Sep 20, 2011)

I'm hearing you Wally. Not that long ago you were shocked by rude manners, nowadays you are shocked by good manners.....


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## abnrmal91 (Sep 20, 2011)

You get use to it after awhile. Still a great place for info if you go about asking for it the right way.


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## AirCooled (Sep 20, 2011)

The facts are simple and it does not only apply to APS,faceless Trolls/Haters are wannabe experts and untouchable.Its true that some usually well mannered experts get frustrated with the same seemingly stupid questions,guess what guys and girls? Same questions tomorrow,next week and forever while ever newbies get the passion for herps however misguided.Simple tip for some,is give the right advice/help then when they are looking for rep number 2 or 3 you might make some cash with that same newbie.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 20, 2011)

MissBree, 

It absolutely is NOT a waste of time to raise this issue. It is something that detracts significantly from APS and needs to be addressed, by whatever means are available, until things actually do change!

It is personally disappointing to me that many long term users have the attitude that you cannot change it, therefore why bother? It is a self-fulfilling prophecy if that is what is expected then that is what you will get. 

It is both a disappointment and a major concern to me that it is expected. For underlying that which is expected is invariably a level of tolerance. I don’t believe it should ever be tolerated and we should collectively be letting those who offend know about it – politely but firmly! It is a cycle and that cycle will remainunbroken while there is any level of acceptance of this type of behavior. 

“We have tried and failed”, might be what you are thinking at the moment. Does any one here know how many electric light globes Thomas Edison constructed before he finally made one that worked? If you think you have tried and failed, I recommend you spend a few minutes locating the answer to that question. It will be time well invested and might just alter your perspective on ‘it can’t be done”. 

Finally – I do NOT accept that nastiness has to be part of APS and I NEVER expect it. 

Blue


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## camspeed (Sep 20, 2011)

This is the Internet, if you're going to cry every time someone calls you a name, then maybe you need to harden up a bit. Seriously. There is no fixing it unless you have someone monitoring posts 24/7 and they have to be approved before being posted. That's never going to happen. 

If someone has flamed you for asking a stupid question, maybe you need to thank that person for pointing it out so you will do a bit of research before making an idiot of yourself again


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Sep 20, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> I now find everyday life can be rude, intolerant, impatient, angry and thankless. When someone goes out of their way to help me, uses manners or just smiles, I'm almost a little overwhelmed. Please and thank you are for free, and they'll get you everywhere.



I totally agree Wally, but unfortunately this is the way of public forums & it should not be.
The crap & nastiness is why a lot of people turn away & I personally know of some well respected breeders that do not participate in any of these forums for this very reason. What a shame on us all.

Cheers
Ian


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## kawasakirider (Sep 20, 2011)

Quite often I quote someone being unnecessarily rude and say "pull up" or whatever. Those comments when someone is asking for genuine help regarding their animal are completely useless for all involved and it only discourages the OP. 

I will say that lots of forums get heated at times, but r/c, car and motorbike forums are a lot less confrontational than this forum. I'm ammember of a forum where EVERYONE is a friend and the only ribbing is a joke between friends, not the nasty comments that you see here quite often.

Lots of people here like to jump on the bandwagon about certain issues and puff themselves up, but I guarantee if it were real life they wouldn't speak the way they do to people on here. At the end of the day I think they're just compensating for something.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 20, 2011)

This is not a public forum. It is privately owned and there are Sites Rules (very bottom of the page, 2/3 along). If “toughen up” means accept someone being rude to me for no good reason, then I shall remain “soft” thankyou. You can attack what has been posted WITHOUT attacking the poster. And you can be firm with someone without being rude. 

Whether it is the internet, the local P&C or a footyclub meeting has no bearing on whether ill manners are acceptable – THEY ARE NOT!!! And it doesn’t have to be like that. As Kawasakirider’s post and several others pointed out, there are forums out there where flaming and baiting simply do not happen. So there are worse forums and better forums. I don’t see any reason why APS should settle for mediocrity. It should and could be up there with the best forums with just a simple change in attitude. Stop making excuses for rudeness. Stop being accepting of rudeness. Don't be rude. It really is that simple!
 

As for the observation that after their “apprenticeship” recent members can turn very nasty… we are looking at a very small proportion of users. Nor should you make assumptions about why they change. It could be peer pressure. It could be getting their own back after having been so often on the receiving end. It could be a case of giving up - if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. Whatever the reason, if the expectation of this behavior was not there, the change in their behavior would a lot less likely.

Blue


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## mysnakesau (Sep 20, 2011)

Australis said:


> I have to respectfully disagree on the "lately" bit, APS has always been exactly the same. Ive been a member on APS for over 5 years. Ive seen this thread topic pop up at least on average every six months. It always goes the same way someone starts a thread, a chorus of new members (usually less than 12months) rally behind the cause of the newbies. But give these same members another look in 6 months and they are the ones "attacking" newbies, i call these the stage2-newb. And so the cycle of forum life continues  and comes full circle.



Yeah. How many 6-month olds have you seen leave a post advising "This has been done before. Use the search button"


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## Snakewoman (Sep 20, 2011)

I find it funny that so many people on here complain about getting infractions or suspensions because they didn't stick to the site rules. What's the point of being a part of a forum if you don't like the rules?


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## mysnakesau (Sep 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> It's kind of easy and it often feels good to have dig at someone, perhaps make a rude comment but there is an amazing transformation in expression and conduct when you meet the person face to face. I found some of my biggest enemy here to be actually very nice people in real life. The cyberspace is screwing us, that's for sure.



You've actually been talking nice to me lately  and I haven't met you yet. Cyberspace isn't totally screwed yet. But I believe I might have a bodyguard to thank, for your change of heart ... hehe


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## AirCooled (Sep 20, 2011)

Why does time as a member on this site make any bearing on experience? I have only been a member on here for 5 months,does this assumption on membership time mean I am a newbie? As far as the search function is concerned,how much conflicting information can that show you sometimes.How much conflicting information does using Google or others show you.Even on here alot have opinions on different husbandry,feeding etc,who is wrong or right?


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## mysnakesau (Sep 20, 2011)

Deadpan said:


> ....as far as the search function is concerned,how much conflicting information can that show you sometimes.........on here alot have opinions on different husbandry,feeding etc,who is wrong or right?



Exactly my point. You get ppl who can't be bothered helping but telling the askers to use the search button adds another post to their 'score'. I like asking questions that have been done before, because a lot of new people with new ideas arrive since the last time.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Sep 20, 2011)

Bodyuard or not Cathy, it does not take a lot to be nice. If one has nothing good or constructive to say, then maybe better not saying anything. Thats my Moto anyway. We are all learners, even the best of them for many years, we are allways still learning & I personally like to pass on my knowledge & experience but, with all good will, that it might help someone else AS I was a learner once, but now I am just a more experienced learner.

Cheers
Ian


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## mysnakesau (Sep 20, 2011)

Well said Ian. Michael isn't nasty, but has enjoyed digging at me I bet...lol....but often I guess the truth can hurt. I consider myself a good keeper and am too sensitive for growly voices. I'm not perfect but that is why I ask questions. Keeping animals of any kind, is a learning experience for the life of the animal.


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## Colin (Sep 21, 2011)

I find that with everything in life our ideas and opinions change and grow.. maybe someone with different opinions can give us a different perspective and we can learn from that.. thats what its all about.. but as said by others good manners and politeness cost nothing and next time your thinking of posting something nasty etc think first if you would like that done to you.. the answer is always no, so think a little first before jumping on the keyboard. 

that said, Ive always had some diffuculty sorting out friendly jokes and sarcasm from nasty comments with the written word on forums sms text messages etc and have often interpreted the other persons intent wrongly.. maybe we also need to make our intent clearer. If everyone was a little nicer to everyone else, and treated others with some manners, politeness and respect the world would be a better place.. and we wouldn't need to warn or infract members so much if everyone tried to stick to the site rules which would be great.. how many of you have even read the sites rules? maybe its a good idea to go have a look now.. thanks 

Site Rules - Aussie Pythons & Snakes

and a persons time on APS doesnt necessarily equate with their knowledge of reptiles.. it just means how long they have been a member. I've been interested in reptiles for over 20 years but what I've learnt is just a drop in the bucket. The longer your into reptiles the more you realise how much you don't know.. we're all learning here no matter how long we've been into reptiles and no one is an expert on everything.


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## ianinoz (Sep 21, 2011)

mje772003 said:


> I think if its not already in the site rules respect others as everyone is as different levels of knowledge and learning. The other thing i would say is (an old saying) " If you can't say anything nice and constructive/helpful don't say anything at all"



Yes that is what my parents taught me as a child, and I taught my children the same thing, and I'll teach my grandchildren it too.

Hey - we're all here because we are interested in Herps and many of us keep them as loved pets and even as VERY SPOILT scaley-children, and some are like me and have befriended reptiles who live with them who are free to come and go and want to find out as much as possible about our little scaley house guests or garden residents as we can so we can help them and do nothing to harm them (by accident).

More importantly, we're here for fun and to learn (about our little and not so little scaley-children) and to make friends with people who we mostly would never find otherwise.


Kudos to the person who established this board, and my sympathy goes to moderator/s who have a sometimes difficult and unrewarding job and who can never keep everyone happy.


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## Waterrat (Sep 21, 2011)

Colin, I just read the rules (for the first time - yes, I am a sinner!) and I wonder how far one can be "open" in private messaging. There is nothing about that in the rules. E.g. the exchange of opinion in the 2 or 3 posts just above would fit into PM perfectly rather than being posted on the forum but what about a real rude attack. I received and gave back such in the past ..... so, can you comment on this?


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## Colin (Sep 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Colin, I just read the rules (for the first time - yes, I am a sinner!) and I wonder how far one can be "open" in private messaging. There is nothing about that in the rules. E.g. the exchange of opinion in the 2 or 3 posts just above would fit into PM perfectly rather than being posted on the forum but what about a real rude attack. I received and gave back such in the past ..... so, can you comment on this?




Firstly despite what some tool suggested a while ago - admin and mods do not and can not look at your your private messages. your private messages remain private between the two parties and anyone else they have been forwarded too.

If you flag an offensive private message using the black triangle icon (the same as you flag a post) it will go to the moderators forum where we will look at it.. that said policy is to just warn the member to please stop sending offending messages and suggest the recipient and person who has complained, to add the offensive member to their "ignore list" so they can no longer message them further.. 

The thing is private messages can be edited and then forwarded onto others or moderators. We have no way of knowing if the messages are the true original message or some rubbish made up by the complaining person to "get someone they dont like" this has happened many times. 

So basically we look at the people involved and if theres a pattern of abuse the offending member will be infracted or banned.

But we encourage members to be nice to each other on the forum, in chat and in private messages.. General Site Rule 1 - Be nice to other members. Any name calling or general nastiness will not be tolerated - this applies for posts in the forum as well as visitor messages on profiles, messages in social groups as well as conversations in chat. 

I agree michael, its better to sort out differences privately and politely as possible using private messages.. If there is a serious problem message a moderator, flag the messages and block that other person by adding them to our "ignore list' 

The ONLY reason people don't do this and post there childish disputes on the forum is usually to grand stand and show off in front of a crowd.. It's not welcomed and against several of the site rules.


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## Waterrat (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks Colin.

Michael


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## kawasakirider (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks


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## ianinoz (Sep 21, 2011)

Colin said:


> Firstly despite what some tool suggested a while ago - admin and mods do not and can not look at your your private messages. your private messages remain private between the two parties and anyone else they have been forwarded too.
> 
> If you flag an offensive private message using the black triangle icon (the same as you flag a post) it will go to the moderators forum where we will look at it.. that said policy is to just warn the member to please stop sending offending messages and suggest the recipient and person who has complained, to add the offensive member to their "ignore list" so they can no longer message them further..
> 
> ...



Some of the other message boards I frequent have a rule that you must get the sender's permission first before screencaping and posting publically any PM's - I've seen some on other boards when they have an ongoing argument post PM's publically to win some kind of points or make the sender look bad. I''ve always believed PM means PRIVATE message and sharing PMs with anyone other the other party should be an instant IP banning offence.

PS - I guess I'm a naughty boy, I've not read the rules here, but have assumed they would be the same or very similar to the rules you'll find on other message boards and really just common decency and good manners anyway.


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## starr9 (Sep 21, 2011)

I dont have a problem when someone tells me Im wrong. But I do have a problem when they dont explain why Im wrong. If Im to learn from my mistakes and grow as a person and a keeper, how can I do this if all i get is a "god another newbie who has no idea"??!! All I ask is if someone posts something that may not be correct 2 someone, why cant they say "nice try but did you know that because of this or that your off the mark?!" No harm in correcting someone and putting them on the right path with kindness! Just my 2 cents!


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## Colin (Sep 21, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Some of the other message boards I frequent have a rule that you must get the sender's permission first before screencaping and posting publically any PM's - I've seen some on other boards when they have an ongoing argument post PM's publically to win some kind of points or make the sender look bad. I''ve always believed PM means PRIVATE message and sharing PMs with anyone other the other party should be an instant IP banning offence.
> 
> PS - I guess I'm a naughty boy, I've not read the rules here, but have assumed they would be the same or very similar to the rules you'll find on other message boards and really just common decency and good manners anyway.




posting private messages on the forum is usually a serious no-no especially when its done to discredit someone else.. pm's can easily be edited to say anything.. so anything said in a pm that has come to you via someone else is usually very dubious.. especially if its something nasty or outrageous.. 

but sometimes if someone needs help or has a question it would be ok to post under certain circumstances (permission of the people involved and a moderator - and its the moderator who should post up not a member)


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 21, 2011)

I would like to make the point very strongly - that it is NOT the Moderators’ job to control what members post. It is the members’ responsibility to control what is posted. The attitude of many seems akin to being in a public place and doing whatever you want until security or the police pull you up on it. No reasonable, responsible adult, or child, would say that the latter was acceptable. Society could not function that way. 

It makes me angry when I read comments like “It’s a public forum” or “It’s the internet” or “It’s just human nature”. These and the like, in my opinion, are simply pathetic excuses for abrogating personal responsibility.

There are no excuses. For example, if some one is abusive to you first, you are not entitled to respond in kind. You can report the comment to the Moderators or respond without being rude or both. Do not do nothing. Ignoring such behavior is viewed by those responsible for it as tacit tolerance or acceptance. 

Behaving appropriately on the APS forum (refer Site Rules) is the responsibility of every individual member – not the moderators. 

Blue


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## vampstorso (Sep 21, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I would like to make the point very strongly - that it is NOT the Moderators’ job to control what members post. It is the members’ responsibility to control what is posted. The attitude of many seems akin to being in a public place and doing whatever you want until security or the police pull you up on it. No reasonable, responsible adult, or child, would say that the latter was acceptable. Society could not function that way.
> 
> It makes me angry when I read comments like “It’s a public forum” or “It’s the internet” or “It’s just human nature”. These and the like, in my opinion, are simply pathetic excuses for abrogating personal responsibility.
> 
> ...




Honestly Blue,
I feel we're in a world now where everyone feels self important, and they're just "untouchable", and no-one can tell them what to do etc etc. e.g. back in the day if a child misbehaved, and their parent wasn't there to punish them, someone else would! Now you'd get sued...
I know that sounds off topic, but my point is people now seem too think their behavior is just untouchable like it or not.

One way I find to avoid sounding snarky, is to limit the use of explanation marks...they often make it seem sarcastic in my opinion.


I don't personally understand the difficulty in having respect for others. I admit I get a bit nasty at times; but I do it to people who are being nasty to an innocent party...I don't agree in an eye for an eye, but I feel they need to be pulled up.


Manners do get you everywhere...plus they're free, and easy. 


and if it's "just the internet" or "a forum so get over it", maybe people like 'you' should leave. Because you're the ones making it so.


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## Snakewoman (Sep 21, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> back in the day if a child misbehaved, and their parent wasn't there to punish them, someone else would



Earlier this year I was at McDonald's with my family and there was a girl who looked to be in her early teens sitting at the table with her mother. Some siblings of hers were sitting at a nearby table. I was at the counter with my family while they were ordering and this young girl decided I looked funny so she was laughing. She was only about 8 feet away from me and I was looking her right in the eye. She then spoke to her mother and pointed at me and laughed. Her mother turned to look at me and I gave her the death stare. She looked away very quickly. When we good our food we went and sat at a table away from them, but this girl and her siblings continued to point and laugh at me the entire time and their mother sat on her backside and did nothing. 

This was the worst possible time to get on my nerves, I'm on medication for anxiety/depression/OCD and I'd run out of it. Sudden stopping of medication is never a good thing, and I wasn't in a good head space at all. I'd been very angry all day due to the sudden stop of medication, and to make it worse I have ADD. I still don't know how I didn't say or do anything and I'm glad I didn't. I was disgusted that this girl's mother did nothing, that child will grow up to be a spoiled little brat with no manners and no respect. :evil:

People's behaviour on the internet can be terrible and people seem to feel like they can behave that way because nobody knows who they are. I don't understand why people feel the need to behave this way, and whether people like it or not they do have to answer for what they say and do. A while ago a man got in major trouble for sending a family pictures of their deceased daughter who died in a high-speed car crash. The photos were of the wreck and what was left of their daughter. On different sites across the net people have been sent unnecessary hateful comments from people they don't even know, and on some facebook groups honouring adults and even children who have died 'trolls' have posted comments making fun of the deceased and their family and friends. Humans are the most vicious creatures on the planet, and we're supposed to be the most intelligent. I don't see it.


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## vampstorso (Sep 21, 2011)

yeah that's exactly that I mean...I'm NOT saying people should punish someones child as of course that's not their business,
but there was once a world where you had to behave EVERYWHERE, because if you didn't; someone would say something, and your parents would also be informed of your actions.

Now'a'days...parents don't care if you tell them, and they don't do anything if they see it, it's like they bask in the 'right' to do what they want including not punish children.


again my point is, the internet is like that; where no one seems to get picked up for their behaviour, and so they feel all is merry and well when they're being disgusting individuals...it seems we're meant to accept you don't have to behave anywhere anymore. I won't accept that.


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## seemasaiyom (Sep 21, 2011)

Hi,

great post i really appreciate this forum for providing me such a great info..

Thanks.

[ * no links thanks *]


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Sep 21, 2011)

It is really not that hard, ALL we have to do is be polite & nice.
If everyone did this, the world would be better off.
Believe me, life is too short to put up with crap.

Thankyou
Ian


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 21, 2011)

Ill manners and any other number of ant-social behaviours have been around forever. That does not make them more acceptable. The world is changing and with media in your face with the “bad boy/girl”, the outrageous antics etc etc it might seem that such behaviors are more acceptable through sheer weight of numbers. That quite simply is not the case and society does not condone it. “Roadrage” used to occur when I first got my license – I experienced a number of incidents of it. Someone puts a name to it and starts plastering videos of it across the media and the next thing you have an epidemic of it. Does that make it more acceptable? 

How common a behavior is does not equate to acceptability, irrespective of how the world has changed. My point is that you can make whatever excuses you like but the reality is, ill manners are not socially unacceptable and they are not acceptable on the APS forum.

The “anonymity” of forum users is more apparent than it is real. It is not a forum where someone comes in, makes a slew of nasty posts and then disappears into the woodwork. It consists of repeat users. On any given day have a quick glance at the number of posts of each user and you will see exactly what I mean. 

A final point from a slightly different perspective. Wherever two or more humans co-exist, there will be rules. When you sign up for APS you agree to abide by the site rules. I think it is about time people who have been making excuses for not doing so, stopped trading on the goodwill of the Moderator’s and started to look after the forum by adhering to the rules.

Blue


PS: Tahlia, there is little doubt that some parents should not be allowed to be parents. One can only hope that the poor example set by such individuals with bringing up their children can be offset by other more civil influences in the children's lives. Otherwise such ignorance is perpetuated.


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## gosia (Sep 21, 2011)

camspeed said:


> This is the Internet, if you're going to cry every time someone calls you a name, then maybe you need to harden up a bit. Seriously. There is no fixing it unless you have someone monitoring posts 24/7 and they have to be approved before being posted. That's never going to happen.
> 
> If someone has flamed you for asking a stupid question, maybe you need to thank that person for pointing it out so you will do a bit of research before making an idiot of yourself again



Sorry mate! Just because its the internet and you are hiding behind a screen, it doesn't give you the right to think you are bigger or better then someone else! Just because people(I was gonna use a different word but APS changed it into stars - so please use your imagination) do it - doesn't mean YOU should. 

Look I do understand, that seeing the same posts/questions over and over again might get a bit old but really, if you take the time to comment and make a smart/rude remark - why not use that time to go into the search mode yourself find the right post and point the person into the right direction! 

Trust me it feels so much better to help a person then to put them down! - you should try it one day :lol:


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## mysnakesau (Sep 21, 2011)

The internet is my social life. I don't have many friends who live nearby but I catch up with my best friend online almost every day. Can you honestly look at a friend's name and say "It is just a computer screen, its just internet, they aren't real." They ARE real, and their feelings are real.


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## ianinoz (Sep 21, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I would like to make the point very strongly - that it is NOT the Moderators’ job to control what members post. It is the members’ responsibility to control what is posted. The attitude of many seems akin to being in a public place and doing whatever you want until security or the police pull you up on it. No reasonable, responsible adult, or child, would say that the latter was acceptable. Society could not function that way.
> 
> It makes me angry when I read comments like “It’s a public forum” or “It’s the internet” or “It’s just human nature”. These and the like, in my opinion, are simply pathetic excuses for abrogating personal responsibility.
> 
> ...



I totally agree. When trolls invade a thread you stomp on them HARD and report them immediately and this way the mods can deal with them - and if they are recivitist trolls IP ban them and nuke their accounts. Not always enough just to add them your ignore list, they'll get away with it and keep on trolling if not in your threads, in someone else's. That's my humble opinion anyway for what it's worth.


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## PythonLegs (Sep 21, 2011)

Well said. A lot of people seem to think computer=video game, and they'll level up by abusing newbs. Unfortunately it is 'just the way it is' and it won't change. I work on the door of the normanby hotel in brisbane, and it's similar to being on here sometimes in that giving someone a few jager bombs or a 1000 post count seems to have the same effect on them. Unfortunately I cant deal with it by turning off the cctv here...but sometimes it'd be nice.


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## elogov (Sep 21, 2011)

gosia said:


> Sorry mate! Just because its the internet and* you *are hiding behind a screen, it doesn't give *you *the right to think *you *are bigger or better then someone else! Just because people(*I was gonna use a different word but APS changed it into stars* - so please use your imagination) do it - doesn't mean YOU should.
> 
> Look I do understand, that seeing the same posts/questions over and over again might get a bit old but really, if you take the time to comment and make a smart/rude remark - why not use that time to go into the search mode yourself find the right post and point the person into the right direction!
> 
> Trust me it feels so much better to help a person then to put them down! - you should try it one day :lol:



Well i see parts of this posts as hostile, un necessary & VERY direct, he was just pointing out that there is always going to be "A" holes in life & sometimes all you can or should do is *smile *back not that he commends the act of being rude OR is rude.. 

& btw im not trying to start conflict but i would feel a bit targeted by that post if i was cam, 

Mysnakesau
"It is just a computer screen, its just internet, they aren't real." They ARE real, and their feelings are real"

Very very true.


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## gosia (Sep 21, 2011)

Sorry if you sow it as that elogav. But the YOU wasn't directed at him, I meant it as YOU(S) / people - which brings me to my next point. The problem with internet posting and texting is that if you - sorry a person - writes things and means it one way someone else might read it totally differently.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 21, 2011)

At the risk of offending Cam, I would like to point out a few issues specific to that post. Before I do so, I would like to say that I have a genuine respect for him for other reasons. I do, however, vehemently disagree with a number of things he has said.

“If you're going to cry every time someone calls you a name”. What message does this convey? Stop being a sissy or a whimp or a spineless wonder because someone is rude to you? That is what it sounds like to me. Especially when read in conjunction with the following comment about “harden up”. The set of values behind this says that it is OK to be rude to people. Those that get offended are lacking in emotional fortitude. I grant you that the context of these remarks was stated as the internet. My question of Cam is why should that which is socially acceptable in the world at large go out the window because you are on the net? Why should the net have a totally differentset of values?

I have already stated that simply because a given behaviour is more prevalent somwhere, whether it be on the net or not, does not make it acceptable. I don’t see why I should accept someone calling me a name on APS. I would not accept it face to face, so why should I acquiesce because it’s sent electronically?

I’d say the crux of this issue rests with Cam’s belief that “there is no fixing it”. On that particular statement I think we shall agree to disagree. The solution has been given and there is no reason that a change in the previous attitude of many cannot be brought about. The unfortunate reality, regardless of reasons, is that there is a tolerance, and to some degree an acceptance, of inappropriate behaviour on APS. 

The prevalent attitude seems to be that it is OK to push it until the Mods pick you up. Then you lie low for a while, until your infractions are nullified. Some don’t even seem to mind pushing it until they are suspended. I wonder if they would be so keen to make “heroes” of themselves if suspension was a total ban for 12 months. Most are not like this at all. But it is hard not to fight back or get drawn occasionally when it occurs with such monotonous regularity. So does that mean it cannot be changed. Absolutely not! If all those everyday decent folk say we want a better APS and do something about it, the hardcore individuals will begin to stick outlike a sore thumb. The Mods will then be in a position to identify and do something about the recalcitrants and spendingtime on APS will be a more pleasant experience for all. Other forums have achieved this. There is no reason APS cannot do so as well. 

In closing, I have yet to see a stupid question that makes someone look like an idiot. Yet even if I did, why would I want to “flame” the poster when I could simply say “Do you realise that question you asked… ?

Blue


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## ianinoz (Sep 21, 2011)

Just a side comment.

I am so glad this message board is based here in Australia and run by Australians.

When similar issues are raised on many USA based message boards, the trolls and their mates (they always have mates who egg them on and pile it on) always complain that "their freedom of expression" (a constitutional right) is being interferred with.... ROFL


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## Colin (Sep 21, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Just a side comment.
> 
> I am so glad this message board is based here in Australia and run by Australians.
> 
> When similar issues are raised on many USA based message boards, the trolls and their mates (they always have mates who egg them on and pile it on) always complain that "their freedom of expression" (a constitutional right) is being interferred with.... ROFL



haha we still get this here ian.. and its "stopping freedom of speech" "censorship" etc 
and some people even threaten the mods with "violence threats" etc for "infracting them"  or banning them for serious rule breaches.. 

what a lot don't realise is Fay and myself do the moderators job on a voluntary basis in our own free time just to try to keep the place friendlier and running ok.. whether we do a good job or not is up to the site owners and members to decide. we all make mistakes but we try our best.


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## ianinoz (Sep 21, 2011)

Colin said:


> haha we still bet this here ian.. and its "stopping freedom of speech" "censorship" etc blah blah blah
> and some people even threaten the mods with "violence threats" etc for "infracting them"  or banning them for serious rule breaches..
> 
> what a lot don't realise is Fay and myself do the moderators job on a voluntary basis in our own free time just to try to keep the place friendlier and running ok.. whether we do a good job or not is up to the site owners and members to decide. we all make mistakes but we try our best.



I hope the ones who threatened violence were visted by the local cops as a result.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Sep 21, 2011)

well mods been doing a great job 

some people take things the wrong way even when you trying to be nice and helping,
thats ok though people can do what they want im cool with whatever,


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## Colin (Sep 22, 2011)

thanks snake pimp


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## Nighthawk (Sep 22, 2011)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> some people take things the wrong way even when you trying to be nice and helping



I think it's the difference between somebody stating "that's a good theory, but try thinking of it this way..." and someone else stating "what are you, an effing moron??"
Now I don't mind being corrected, as I've stated earlier in another thread I'd never learn anything if everyone agreed with me all the time, but I can't stand being humiliated. That said, there are some blunt people in this world and I've had to learn to grow a thicker skin to deal with it.
I take a philosophical stance personally; try to be nice, try to apply tact where needed, if stubbornly nasty people persist take a slight step to the left, dodge the bs and carry on past. 
Nobody likes to be told they are wrong and people react in varying degrees. It's like I tell my husband when he whinges about higher bills; just give them their lick of the lolly and move on. It's not worth the hernia.

P.S. Totally agree with you on the job the mods are doing. This actually has to be one of the better forums out there due to bs intolerance


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## mysnakesau (Sep 22, 2011)

mysnakesau said:


> The internet is my social life. I don't have many friends who live nearby but I catch up with my best friend online almost every day. Can you honestly look at a friend's name and say "It is just a computer screen, its just internet, they aren't real." They ARE real, and their feelings are real.



I just editted my post, changing "any" to "many". Now I feel bad that I almost forgot my dearest friends of all who live just 20 minutes away. They are more like family to me, but I don't like being annoying or living on ppl's doorsteps either.


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## camspeed (Sep 23, 2011)

Ah whatever doesn't worry me. Never said you needed to harden up blue, just a broad comment for people who feel the need to whinge publicly when someone has a go at them in order to attract pity or whatever they're trying to do, rather than sorting it out through the proper channels

This is the reason I generally don't post on this board, despite being a member on here for a long time. From now on ill just sit back and shake my head at the crud some people post on here, which has always worked for me in the past


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 23, 2011)

Perhaps what people are doing, by what you perceive as ‘whinging’, is trying to bring it to the attention of others. As you state, this is likely not the most effective way to do something about it.

Perhaps then what we should be doing is providing positive guidance (as against a “don’t do this”) of a more effective alternative. Given the way the system currently works, I would suggest that involving the Mods at the earliest appropriate point, and not retorting at all, would be the best advice. So “harden up” becomes “use the Mods”.

At the moment there is a need for threads such as this to raise awarness and educate amongst those that need it. 

Blue


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## gosia (Sep 23, 2011)

This is the reason I generally don't post on this board, despite being a member on here for a long time. From now on ill just sit back and shake my head at the crud some people post on here, which has always worked for me in the past[/QUOTE]

Cam,

I truly hope you don't mean that :cry: Being that you are a long time member, shows me that you have been keeping reptiles for a long time. I am sure all the members, especially the newbies (myself included) would appreciate any wisdom, opinions and advise that you share with us - to make us all better reptile keepers.

Gosia
:lol::lol:


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## camspeed (Sep 23, 2011)

Mate if you search this board you'll probably find the answer to nearly any question you would have. It just takes a bit of common sense to know what's worth listening to and what's not. Reptiles aren't that hard to keep, give em somewhere to live, heat, food and water, clean up their ***** and 99% of the time you will have no dramas. Probably the easiest animals in the world to take care of.

Have a great day


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## gosia (Sep 23, 2011)

Hey I think you're onto something Cam!!! I have a solution to this whole dilema!!!

Lets just change APS from a Forum to a search site!!!!!! No more questions, no more answers! Everyone happy :lol:

But then I guess we will have another problem - what are you and me gonna do, when there is no more stupid questions to read and laugh at???.....mmm.......

You have a lovely day too


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 23, 2011)

The issue of the search facility has already been covered by others but I guess it needs to be spelt out again. I would also point out that anything is easy once you have mastered it. For those still learning, especially those just beginning, it is anything but easy. Next time you see a toddler learning to walk, take the time to spend a couple of minutes watching…

Sometimes you can repeatedly turn up nothing. Other times you can turn up more threads than you can poke a stick at – ‘heat’ or ‘heating’ will bring up over 200 threads, which is an awful lot of information to wade through. And not every thread contains sound information. Only yesterday I saw a question about a snake burning itself if the basking light was too hot. The answer posted was: “Don’t worry, it will only touch it once and then pull away and it won’t happen again.” Not good advice. The same is true of the internet. There is a lot of information out there but not all of it is good. Given that beginners are starting from a position of ignorance, how the hell are they supposed to be able to determine which is good information from which is bad? 

Beginners need specific help. They do NOT need to be fobbed off by someone who can’t be bothered, whatever the reason, to provide that help. Don’t put someone one off by telling them to use the search facility. Leave it to another member to answer that query – one who is prepared to put in the effort required to provide genuine help. One who is prepared to do a little research themselves and come back with: “Here is a link to a thread that should answer your questions” or “Here is a link to a site that contains lots of good information”. 

Blue


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## littlemay (Sep 23, 2011)

I agree with most of this thread, however i also think it is important to distinguish between constructive critisism and hateful, pointless posting. I frequent quite a few forums and i have to say, APS is the cleaniest, friendliest site i've come across; what some people consider trolling on here wouldn't be worth the time of mods on certain other sites. 

This is not to say that all of what occurs on APS should be accepted and taken lightly, however i really don't like the idea that everyone has to be happy and smiling and agreeable 100% of the time or else. I haven't been on here for long but there have been several threads where a poster has taken incredible offence to a comment that while not written in the nicest manner, was certainly not intended to be hateful or pointless.

Extremes should always be dealt with accordingly, but i think people need to realise that just because a post may be a bit blunt and not all sunshine and flowers that doesn't neccessarily mean flaming and trolling. Controversial threads are always fun and interesting due to the clash of opinion, and this can actually be very useful! There is a fine line between rudeness and conflicting opinion, but i notice that sometimes people on this site don't recognise that difference at all.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 24, 2011)

littlemay said:


> I agree with most of this thread, however i also think it is important to distinguish betweenconstructive critisism and hateful, pointless posting. I frequent quite a fewforums and i have to say, APS is the cleaniest, friendliest site i've comeacross; what some people consider trolling on here wouldn't be worth the time ofmods on certain other sites.


The forums you refer to are one end of the spectrum. I had never even heard the term "trolling" until I became more active on APS. So I have seen the other end of the spectrum. We, the APS users, can choose where on that spectrum APS sits. I don’t see any reason for settling for middle of the road simply because there are worse forums about. That would be like Australia saying, OK all those civil liberties that Australian citizens currently enjoy are cut in half because every nearby nation offers much less personal freedom than we do. 



littlemay said:


> Ihaven't been on here for long but there have been several threads where aposter has taken incredible offence to a comment that while not written in thenicest manner, was certainly not intended to be hateful or pointless.


 I would appreciate it if you could PM the thread details because this is something I have not seen. From my experience I would think it to be most uncommon but I do not read every thread.




littlemay said:


> This is not to say that all ofwhat occurs on APS should be accepted and taken lightly, however i really don'tlike the idea that everyone has to be happy and smiling and agreeable 100% of thetime or else. I haven't been on here for long but there have been severalthreads where a poster has taken incredible offence to a comment that while notwritten in the nicest manner, was certainly not intended to be hateful orpointless.
> 
> Extremes should always be dealt with accordingly, but i think people need torealise that just because a post may be a bit blunt and not all sunshine andflowers that doesn't neccessarily mean flaming and trolling. Controversialthreads are always fun and interesting due to the clash of opinion, and thiscan actually be very useful! There is a fine line between rudeness andconflicting opinion, but i notice that sometimes people on this site don'trecognise that difference at all.


I bet I know where this comes from – “Be nice to other members”. If you actually refer to the site rules, that initial statement is further qualified: “Any name calling or general nastiness will not be tolerated.” What it is saying, in effect, is that derogatory comments directed at another are not on.
I agree with your basic sentiments. No-one wants to see the forum turn into a repository of simpering sycophants. There should be plenty of freedom for robust debate, the expression of conflicting opinions and the capacity to challenge the assertions of others. These are not only desirable but are critically important elements in maintaining validity and quality in the information available through this forum. Rest assured that no-one is trying to muzzle the aforementioned. 

I hope that clarifies matters and clears up any concerns Littlemay.

All that is asked is that people are civil to each other. The simplest way of ensuring this is to not be personal. By all means attack the post but NEVER the poster. What you think of an individual who posts here is your business and it should remain so. You are not at liberty to express it. I think we all understand we are talking about negative comments – those that can and do cause hurt, distress or are belittling i.e. name calling or general nastiness. 

I would also point out that in my experience, as soon as one individual gets personal, others then tend to retort in kind, and the value of the discussion takes a steepnose dive. It only one takes one such comment to de-rail an entire thread. I can only but wonder if those who start off the personal derogatory comments, do so to hide their inability to logically attack and argue against what has been posted.

Blue


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## Waterrat (Sep 24, 2011)

Blue, have you thought about applying for a job with APS? Alternatively, the admin could offer you a honorary position with a title. You would make a fine chief moderator.


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## littlemay (Sep 24, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> The forums you refer to areone end of the spectrum. I had nevereven heard the term "trolling" until I became more active on APS. So I have seen the other end of thespectrum. We, the APS users, can choosewhere on that spectrum APS sits. I don’tsee any reason or settling for middle of the road because there are worseforums about. That would be likeAustralia saying, OK all those civil liberties that Australian citizenscurrently enjoy are cut in half because every nearby nation offers much lesspersonal freedom than we do.



I am aware of that, which is why i qualified my statement with 'This is not to say that all of what occurs on APS should be accepted and taken lightly'.



Bluetongue1 said:


> I bet I know where this comes from – “Be niceto other members”. If you actually referto the site rules, that initial statement is further qualified: “Any name calling or general nastiness willnot be tolerated.” What it is saying, ineffect, is that derogatory comments directed at another are not on.
> I agreewith your basic sentiment. No-one wantsto see the forum turn into a repository of simpering sycophants. There shouldbe plenty of freedom for robust debate, the expression of conflicting opinionsthe capacity to challenge the assertions of others. These are not only desirablebut are critically important elements in maintaining validity and quality inthe information available through this forum. Rest assured that no-one istrying to muzzle the aforementioned.



Of course, i am not trying to say that people should not be expected to act in a civil manner. What i am saying is that civil and nice are not always the same thing; you can express disagreement and frustration with an opinion without expressing disagreement and frustration with the person. I completely agree that arguments should never get personal, there is a right and wrong way to debate and personal jabs definitely fall in the wrong end.

This is just my opinion based on things i have seen during my short time on these forums, which include knee jerk reactions from posters who received responses that while not nasty or personal, were not in the taste expected. Then again, it's possible my idea of 'nasty' is simply different from yours, i don't believe in entertaining fools but neither do i believe in lynching them.

I will go through and have a look for some of these threads if you like, mind you i'm not really interested in arguing, this is simply my opinion, thought it would be interesting to throw into the mix.


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## abnrmal91 (Sep 24, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Blue, have you thought about applying for a job with APS? Alternatively, the admin could offer you a honorary position with a title. You would make a fine chief moderator.


 i second that motion. I can also donate a yellow hard hat that has chief fire warden on it (close enough) you could still use it to put out some of the flaming lol.


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## Snakewoman (Sep 24, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Blue, have you thought about applying for a job with APS? Alternatively, the admin could offer you a honorary position with a title. You would make a fine chief moderator.



Yes!!! Come on blue, be a mod!


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## Wally (Sep 24, 2011)

He already is, on a distant forum, far, far away. Well from me at least......


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## thefridge71 (Sep 24, 2011)

What I have found through use of forums over the years is that some have argumentative natures (such as myself) in real life. If you combine that with a sense of boredom within work or life in general (unemployed, sitting at a desk at work all day etc.), then provide that person with plenty of issues to discuss and debate online you are bound to have conflict and rude people popping up.

I was once in a job where I sat at a desk and was bored all day long, I used forums far too much in order to entertain myself. They should be about asking questions and not getting attacked for it. If you are extremely experienced, that is fantastic. Share your knowledge if you want, if you don't then have a read, have a laugh, but don't have a go. Everyone started out at some point in time. It may just be that you started out in a situation where you could ask someone questions face to face because you were in a different situation. People now have access to the internet and that is a fantastic thing. It should be utilised.

As for newer people on forums, try not to clog forums up constantly with questions that are not needed. On a forum I frequent, people ask questions such as what is an offshore wind. Although I didn't bite at them, it is sure to annoy the type of person acknowledged above. I.e. Unemployed or working in a line of work that provides plenty of time to frequent forums, and with a tendency towards put down behaviour or frustration with what they perceive as silly questions.

My 2 cents. Now I will fade back into non-existence.







P.S. If I can offer any more advice. Wear sunscreen and use punctuation and proper grammar.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 24, 2011)

> As for newer people on forums, try not to clog forums up constantly with questions that are not needed. On a forum I frequent, people ask questions such as what is an offshore wind. Although I didn't bite at them, it is sure to annoy the type of person acknowledged above. I.e. Unemployed or working in a line of work that provides plenty of time to frequent forums, and with a tendency towards put down behaviour or frustration with what they perceive as silly questions.



Don't blame new comers for clogging the forum will "silly questions". They wouldn't ask if they thought it was un-necessary. As far as I am concerned, the only silly question is the one you fail to ask. It's these bored, argumentive ppl who should be working, that need to keep their un-necessary comments off the forums, not the newbies with their questions. Yeah you do find a lot of questions you might consider basic, or been asked 100 times, but how are newbies suppose to know that their question has been done 100 times before. Not everyone thinks of using the search button, especially when they are excited about joining the snake forum, finding their first pet and writing their first post.


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## Waterrat (Sep 24, 2011)

mysnakesau said:


> As far as I am concerned, the only silly question is the one you fail to ask.



Gosh, I could think of so many questions I failed to ask. I am sure some of them were very silly. There are stupid questions Kathy, believe me. 
For example: "what should be my next snake" answer: "do you really need advice from others to decide where your interest lies?" "help me name my beardie" answer: there is about 10000 names, can't you pick one the YOU like?" "I suppose this a stupid question ..... " Yes, it is! Who would start a thread with that? A stupid person?
But hay, we should be nice to each other .... social correctness tell us that that there is no stupid people in this world just like there is no such thing as stupid question.
Can a question be "disadvataged"?
Some unfortunate souls are born stupid but stupidity is also caused and fueled throughout life by laziness. Those people who couldn't be bothered to invest little bit of time and effort to advance their knowledge often come up with stupid questions, expecting others to serve them the answers on a silver plate. That I find irritating here on APS and elsewhere..


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 24, 2011)

thefridge71 said:


> What I have found through useof forums over the years is that some have argumentative natures (such asmyself) in real life. If you combine that with a sense of boredom within workor life in general (unemployed, sitting at a desk at work all day etc.), thenprovide that person with plenty of issues to discuss and debate online you arebound to have conflict and rude people popping up....


You do get that. However, someone with that disposition does not get their jollies from a forum where people do not bite. They very quickly realize where there is no “fun” to be had and head off elsewhere. It would be nice to know that we didn’t attract them.

Love the coin. Very clever!




Waterrat said:


> Blue, have you thought aboutapplying for a job with APS? Alternatively, the admin could offer you ahonorary position with a title. You would make a fine chief moderator.


I appreciate the thought but am not in a position to throw my hat into that ring.

What would be better is not requiring moderation!

Blue


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## Wally (Sep 24, 2011)

You have a conscience Blue, something that should be respected in oneself and encouraged in others. Well done.


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## vampstorso (Sep 24, 2011)

Sorry, but why should people asking questions be snapped at because someone is bored or doesn't have a job?
Maybe get off your computer and go outside!

I have a rather aggressive personality in real life. Doesn't give me logic or means to be nasty on a forum.


All I have too say to all giving excuses about being nasty is; do you hit someone then say it's THEIR fault? Perhaps look up Fritz Pearls or someone similar; YOU are responsible for YOUR behaviour. NO ONE makes YOU do ANYTHING.


The capitals makes it appear aggressive, but my intention is too highlight those points, so don't read it as yelling lol.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 25, 2011)

So true! And the crux of the issue.


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## Cockney_Red (Sep 25, 2011)

Far too many sensitive souls on here....BRING BACK THE BIFF!.......


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## hotreps (Sep 25, 2011)

it all comes back to if you've got nothing nice to say then don't say a word.


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## Waterrat (Sep 25, 2011)

hotreps said:


> it all comes back to if you've got nothing nice to say then don't say a word.



Really? What if I have something interesting to say - does it have to be nice as well? What about something really funny, not necessarily politically & socially correct - no no?
Get real people, this is real world not a nursing home.


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## littlemay (Sep 25, 2011)

wow


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## vampstorso (Sep 25, 2011)

I understand being nasty or whatever in context, and that's all good, sometimes it is necessary.

But it's the being nasty too people who haven't asked for it other than wanting too know something.
I feel there's a difference too a question being phrased like:
"I've got a bredli python, and I'm feeding it hoppers, it's however big rah rah rah, is this okay?" and hence needing reassurance, as apposed too;
"Oh my god guys, I saw this ____ in the pet store, I had to buy it. what temps does it need? what do I feed it?"


so what I mean is...some people have good intentions, and are just seeking reassurance what they're doing is okay, and while it may being annoying, there's no harm done.
but someone who has done no research and it's just something cool, I can understand the frustration.

I also get sick of "use the search function"...it doesn't work very well, so they may well have.

using "site:aussiepythons.com *whatever you wanna search*" on google is much better.



So anyway, there's just a time and a place.
"


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## mysnakesau (Sep 25, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Gosh, I could think of so many questions I failed to ask. I am sure some of them were very silly. There are stupid questions Kathy, believe me.
> For example: "what should be my next snake" answer: "do you really need advice from others to decide where your interest lies?" "help me name my beardie" answer: there is about 10000 names, can't you pick one the YOU like?" "I suppose this a stupid question ..... " Yes, it is! Who would start a thread with that? A stupid person?
> But hay, we should be nice to each other .... social correctness tell us that that there is no stupid people in this world just like there is no such thing as stupid question.
> Can a question be "disadvataged"?
> Some unfortunate souls are born stupid but stupidity is also caused and fueled throughout life by laziness. Those people who couldn't be bothered to invest little bit of time and effort to advance their knowledge often come up with stupid questions, expecting others to serve them the answers on a silver plate. That I find irritating here on APS and elsewhere..



:lol: Ok, there ARE plenty of silly questions and lazy keepers. Haha, your examples are classic silly questions. My theory was intended in relation to the care of someone's animal. 

But I actually learnt something silly here recently too. I didn't know snakes won't drink their water if its more than a few days old. I change their water every week anyway but never thought that even once a week could be not enough.



Cockney_Red said:


> Far too many sensitive souls on here....BRING BACK THE BIFF!.......



I am a sensitive soul so please don't yell at me or pick on me. lol


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## Cockney_Red (Sep 25, 2011)

Kathy none of mine will touch a drop over 2 days old


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## StimiLove (Sep 25, 2011)

Well its a bloody good job i joined up! I'm the nicest person you'll ever meet, and am now officially part of this conversation!


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## Cockney_Red (Sep 25, 2011)

StimiLove said:


> Well its a bloody good job i joined up! I'm the nicest person you'll ever meet, and am now officially part of this conversation!


Conversation aside, I'll meet you at Sydney airport 8.00am tomorrow morning, and make my own mind up on how nice you are....bloody arrogant newbies, eh......................


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## StimiLove (Sep 25, 2011)

i'm a lovely newbee.



Cockney_Red said:


> Conversation aside, I'll meet you at Sydney airport 8.00am tomorrow morning, and make my own mind up on how nice you are....bloody arrogant newbies, eh......................


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## Waterrat (Sep 25, 2011)

StimiLove said:


> i'm a lovely newbee.



Then I wana meet you too.


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## Nighthawk (Sep 26, 2011)

There are way too many variables in this argument. Kid gloves, oversensitivity, misinterpretation; no matter what anyone says the fact remains that, without inflection, facial expressions, tone of voice etc there are always going to be people offended by most arguments made from any angle behind a computer screen.
Maybe I'm too trusting, maybe that's just a facade I choose to let others see, but I like to try and take any statement in the best possible context. Everyone has my respect from the start; I don't make people earn it, what others earn is my disrespect, and that, my friend, is much harder to get away from once earned.
A stupid question, to me, is one that is repeated. If you get the correct answer and don't learn from it, then it's stupid. As far as names and next acquisitions go, I wouldn't call them stupid. It gives more of an insight into the asker than the question, and the asker may not be an idiot, just somebody who places too much value on outside influence. Maybe they're unsure of themselves, or maybe they just can't make up their mind between a GTP or a Jag, or maybe they just want to flaunt the fact they can afford those two snakes and see who gets jealous. Maybe an asker is looking for validation rather than an actual response, so they can say they knew it all along. 
At the end of the day there are a few things we all already know to be true. There will always be newbies, there will always be simple questions, it always will take far less effort to refrain from posting a comment than to be truly nasty, and it's most likely that somebody, somewhere, is going to misread it. If constructive critisism isn't taken on the cheek, well then that's their affair. They could have taken it the wrong way or misread you, in which case you can clarify or you can drop it.
Oh yeah, and another thing we know to be true; Waterrat could probably do with a new stirring stick


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Then I wana meet you too.


Fair crack of the whip there Waterrat! I live in Perth and don’t even get a look in.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with the whiskers?……


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## Bel03 (Sep 26, 2011)

Oh poor Blue....... Next time im in perth, i wanna meet you, your sense of humor cracks me up, so im coming for coffee.......well uummmm perhaps just a cold water.........it wont hurt so much then if i wear it! :lol:


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## Waterrat (Sep 26, 2011)

Nighthawk said:


> Oh yeah, and another thing we know to be true; Waterrat could probably do with a new stirring stick



Meaning? .... now that's a "stupid question".


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 26, 2011)

Bel711

I have stocked the fridge and the razor is on charge!


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## Nighthawk (Sep 26, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Meaning? .... now that's a "stupid question".



It's in the mail; I've carved your avatar into the handle, and it's ergonomic so you don't get blisters this time.


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## Waterrat (Sep 26, 2011)

I appreciate it. Can you do another one for me with a carved bluetongue on the handle? It's always handy to have a spare.


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## Nighthawk (Sep 26, 2011)

Not a problem.


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## elogov (Sep 26, 2011)

I think we all know someone like this guy .


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