# 'Black and Gold' Jungles......??



## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

Hey guy's,

I'm interested in what people class as a Black and Gold Jungle? For years i've seen cream coloured Athertons being passed off as B&G's. Are such animals what general herpers regard as Black and Golds these days? The general consensus used to be that Palmerstons were the only true Black and Gold Jungles. Everything on the fringes of the plateau down to the tablelands (and others localities) was classed as either Black and Yellow (given their colour) or Athertons, Tullys etc? (I'm no 'Jungle' locale expert by any means so forgive my loose example of Palmerstons Atherton and Tully area.....where's Nick Stock when you need him?)

Anyways, pics and opinions thanks guys.

Den


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## The Devil (Nov 22, 2007)

Black and gold's are as the name implies, black and gold. Keep in mind that some lines take up to say 18 months to show full colour.

The attached pic is a B&G.....................


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## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2007)

Hey mate, I've always thought the exact same thing. People trying to offload animals as "Black and Golds" when they are really black and brown or black and tan. It doesn't matter for people in the know, but new keepers might get sucked into paying way too much for a mediocre snake.


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## slacker (Nov 22, 2007)

I think the term now is used fairly loosely and from what I've seen is basically synonymous with "doesn't look like a coastal halfbreed" and "isn't beige."

Personally, I'll call them whatever their true colours (or will be) are and charge according to aesthetics, be they a true "black and gold" or a nice black and yellow, or something else entirely.


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## mysnakesau (Nov 22, 2007)

Have a look at the jungles on Southern Cross Reptiles' site. Thats what you call Black & Gold, or do a search of pics here.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 22, 2007)

Gold coloured jungles are like gold ring colour , 
then there yellow colours, 
canary yellow like the devils jungles or palmerston jungles are usually lemon yellow ,
thats how i see them


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

The Devil said:


> Black and gold's are as the name implies, black and gold. Keep in mind that some lines take up to say 18 months to show full colour.
> 
> The attached pic is a B&G.....................




I was thinking i'd get that reply. Black and Gold is Black and Gold. The trouble seems to be alot of people are colour blind or rather colour enhanced! The snake will always sell itself and as you say, they take atlest 6mths to show what their potential colours will be which makes it easy for people to pass freshly hatched Athertons off as whatever colour they like! Pics of the parents is the only way to be sure i guess but even then throw backs to duller ancestors can be common.

Hot snake by the way! You'd be almost sick of that comment by now..........

Thanks
Den


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Gold coloured jungles are like golden ring colours ,
> then there yellow colours, canary like the devils jungles or palmerston jungles are usually lemon yellow ,



Yeah, it may be what the person persieves the colour to be. I'd call Devil's Black and Yellow, Dirty, deep coloured Palmerstons is my perception of Black and Gold. 

Personal prefference but clean, selectively bred black and yellows beat all others hands down. Others may preffer pure Palmerstons due to their specific locality but the eventual dirtyness in the gold lets them down.


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## viridis (Nov 22, 2007)

_Just my opinion den

Jungle Carpet Pythons – Morelia spilota cheynei*.*​*
*_
The jungle carpet is with out doubt, one of the most desirable species of carpet available to be kept by amateur hobbyists in Australia. With their striking colours and immensely variable patterns, the title, as the ultimate carpet python will remain theirs for a long time yet.

Here in Australia, we are lucky enough to have access to various locales of this popular python. The most well known and readily available is the Palmerston locale. Most of these specimens are of black and gold colouration. These animals are the foundations to most of the well-known and well-respected bloodlines of Jungles here in Australia. The Palmerston nametag originates back to animals, which in the early 1980’s, were collected from the surrounding areas of the now famous Palmerston Highway. This stretch of road starts from Innisfail, travelling through wet tropical rainforest and cleared farmlands up through Milla Milla, and continues further west towards Ravenshoe. There are various other locales that come under the Palmerston genre, including (but not limited to) South Johnstone, Milla Milla, Mena Creek, East Palmerston and Nerada Tea. These animals all vary in minor ways but most still share the general characteristics of Palmerston’s; solid black and deep gold colouration, rather aggressive temperaments, increased melanin tipping and a smaller stockier size.

Most well coloured animals being sold under the Palmerston name can be traced back to a few well-established bloodlines such as the Krauss, Aland and Montgomery lines.

Although the Cheynei sub species of carpets have a relatively small distribution, there is an intense variation in both colouration and patterns within animals from differing localities. I will give a brief, whilst comprehensive description of a few of the various wild occurring morphs. 

Atherton Tablelands:
Animals from this area often attract a negative feeling amongst a lot of keepers. These animals are often regarded as being not a “true Jungle”, as there are a lot of somewhat drab or dull specimens from this area. I feel that these animals that consist of more plain colours including brown, bone, tan, cream and mustard are what most people refer to when speaking of this area form. Although not as common as some other localities, you still do find stunning specimens with velvet black and vibrant yellows and gold’s. Found on the outskirts of the actual town Atherton, these animals tend to inhabit the dense semi tropical rainforest and also some areas of Sclerophyll forest. The size of animals from the Atherton area is the main differing factor, with animals exceeding 2 meters commonly. We have measured some specimens that have exceeded 3 meters in total length, and approx 6 kg in weight.

Over all, pythons from this locale are often an enjoyable locale to keep in captivity due to their calm disposition.

Tully – Mission Beach:
This is a well-coloured locale of Cheynei that is rapidly becoming more popular with the amateur herp. Mission beach animals are very similar to specimens from the Palmerston area, though animals found from Cowley Beach to South Mission tend to show a bright, lemon yellow colouration rather then shades of gold’s. Well-banded specimens seem to be a lot more common within these locales then any other area where Jungles inhabit. Specimens found inland, from the township of Tully up to the Koombooloomba Dam area can vary a lot in size, colouration and pattern. These animals can show striped, banded and blotched patterns, and be anything from bright gold’s and jet blacks to dull tans and creams.

Mt Molloy, Julatten, Mossman, Daintree, Cape Tribulation:
These are quite possibly some of the most desired morph of Jungles in recent times due to the spectacular black and white colouration found on some standout animals, and the fact that they are relatively rare in captive collections. These animals are few and far between with most being grey rather then white and also often being of Tri – colouration, with shades of Orange, Grey and black. Standout animals as adults are rare, as most specimens often loose the crisp white, which fades to a dull grey when the animals reach adulthood.

This morph will become readily available as more keepers are now choosing to work with them in order to create more aesthetically pleasing Pythons. In the early days of herpetology, these animals were seldom kept in captivity due to their pugnacious attitudes and shy temperaments; Julatten animals in particular are extremely hard to get to voluntary feeding on rodents. 

Cooktown - Cape York:
Animals found within the Bloomfield - Cooktown – Southern Cape York area, often cause some confusion as to what sub species of the Morelia spilota complex they come into. It is in my belief that specimens found in these areas should be classed under the Cheynei name tag as they tend to show more of the Tableland Jungle attributes. Good examples of these Jungles are truly outstanding looking animals. They show the typical Jungle black skull and cross bone head patterns and well-coloured animals can be of bright orange and white colouration with thick stripes and irregular blotches along the sides of the animals. This particular colour morph is mainly found around Cooktown and is one of my favourite colour forms of Carpets.

Cardwell, Bilyana - Ingham:
These are the most southern forms of Jungles. Some of these animals tend to show characteristics of Coastal Carpets (Morelia spilota mcdowelli) in both colour/ pattern and size. I believe that some of these animals are the result of a natural intergrade between Cheynei and Mcdowelli, which becomes more apparent further south between Paluma and Townsville. Animals from these locales often show strong striping, sometimes having up to 5-6 lateral and dorsal stripes. Colourations of these pythons are not as spectacular as the northern specimens, as they tend to show varying shades of dull mustard yellows and browns. Size is also a distinguishing factor that separates these animals from the smaller northern area forms, with individuals averaging 6-7 feet in size as adults.

Sexing:
The most definite way to determine the sex of Jungle’s is by cloacal probing. An experienced person easily does this method of sexing. Care should be taken as damage can be done to the animal (hatchlings in particular) if done incorrectly. Females probe to a depth of 3 - 6 subcaudals and males to a depth of 8 -13 subcaudals. Both sexes have spurs though male spurs are more pronounced and often visibly larger.
Housing:
In warmer climates a 25-watt blue globe can be used as the main source of heat for adult Jungles. Globes are left on all day, but it is recommended that they be turned off via a thermostat-controlled device, if temperatures in the room reach 30°C or above. Heating for juvenile and hatchling snakes can be obtained from heat cords, which are left on day and night but again turned off if temps reach 30°C.
Housing for adult snakes can vary, but a cheap and effective method can be made from melamine and should feature a hide box of some description. These can be above the cages, or simply achieved by using a dark plastic or wooden tub on the floor of the cage. Hinged or sliding glass doors can be used whilst pegboard backs offer good ventilation. Suitable dimensions are 600 mm x 600mm x 900mm, with provision of two perches the same diameter as the snake. These cages can be made to form banks of 12 cages, which are 2400mm long, sit neat and are great for optimising space. Appropriate yearling cages can be made from the same materials but are smaller sizes, 600mm x 300 mm x 300 mm. Juveniles and hatchlings are best kept in small plastic containers around 200mm x 150 mm x 150mm. A perch is a necessity for young animals; this can be in the form of plastic coat hangers, dowel or small smooth branches. A mistake that inexperienced keepers often make, is buying a small Jungle and housing it in an excessive sized enclosure. This will stress the snake due to insecurity and the animal will not settle down in captivity, and the risk of an animal escaping is also dramatically increased. 
Feeding:
Adult jungles will accept a wide range of prey including mice, rats, appropriate sized chickens, pigeons and quail. The diets of wild animals consist of approximately 75% birds, 20% small mammals and 5% frogs and reptiles. Juveniles in a natural environment start of feeding on small skinks and frogs. Some finicky animals will only eat mice which is a hassle, as rats put condition on young snakes a lot faster in captivity. In captivity adult snakes should ideally only be fed 2 - 3 medium rats a month. Hatchling Carpets will usually voluntarily feed on small fuzzy mice after they have shed. The remaining snakes that didn’t feed initially usually will within a month. 
All hatchling Morelia species should have a perch in their cages. This will help shy snakes to eat, as like most pythons, they like to be above the food item to strike. As a last resort for difficult feeding hatchlings, small fuzzy mice can be scented with garden skinks by placing them together in a small tub and leaving them to scent for a few hours.
Breeding
Jungle carpets like all of the Morelia spilota sub species are easily and regularly bred in captivity. I don’t feed any mature animals after the late April / early May. After all food items are digested and passed I begin to cool them for breeding. This can be done by simply offering no heat at night and reducing the ambient temperature in the cage. After adequate cooling time males are placed in the female’s cages in trios, two females to one male. The heat remains off all night with temperatures sometimes getting down to 10 deg c. Heating at approx 28 degs is provided for around four hours each day at about 8 am until 12 noon. Once the females have ovulated and have had a pre lay slough, the males are taken out and put back into separate cages. Eggs are usually laid around 24 - 30 days after the pre lay slough. Eggs can be laid from September to October and are incubated at 31 deg c starting to hatch after 50 -55 days of artificial incubation. After the first snake has pipped the egg, I usually cut a small ‘V’ out of the remaining eggs to reduce the risk of a weaker animal becoming trapped in the egg and subsequently drowning. Once completely out of the egg, the neonates are transferred to a small plastic tubs, with damp paper towel as substrate, until the snake has shed. This will usually take around 7 - 10 days, although it can take up to one month. Once hatchlings have sloughed, the damp substrate is replaced by normal paper towel and hatchlings are then offered a food item.

Summery:

All of the various locales of Jungles are well suited to captivity. They are easy to breed and are an enjoyable species to keep. They require minimal attention and are relatively hardy if common sense and basic reptile keeping methods are followed.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

About time Nicky.....

I can hear people cutting and paisting as i type.

Den


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## viridis (Nov 22, 2007)

give me a few days and i will get pics of all of the above locales ( wild snake)


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## Miss B (Nov 22, 2007)

I don't understand why snakes that are black and bright yellow are labelled "Black and Gold".


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

I look forward to the pics mate!

Have you seen any wild animals that stack up to the brightness of the Devils, Rogers on his website or your first Supers? 

Excuse my ignorance, I'm best described as a "captive herper" (Mr Lucas pers. comm.)


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## Frozenmouse (Nov 22, 2007)

Yeah what virdis said.


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Nov 22, 2007)

well.. I don't care what you call them... but here are my babies... gorgeous hey!!!!

Thanks Den

The first is my little man, Zeus, (sweetheart), the second is my little girl, Isis, ( little cow!)


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## SnakePower (Nov 22, 2007)

I agree with what has been said on these localities, but I think some of the best examples of B&G's are SXR line and they are Athertons!! But the best true B&G's are generally palmerstons for sure as a generalisation.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 22, 2007)

This is my perception of a Black and Gold (Classic Palmerston)







This is my perception af an average Atherton. 





Now these 2 came out of the exact same clutch showing what i described as throwbacks to ancestors.









Having not spent anytime herping for wild Jungles i'm realy looking forward to your pics Nick. They'll definately clear up alot of my missunderstandings and perceptions.

Thanks


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## SnakePower (Nov 22, 2007)

Here is a 50/50 Atherton definitely a B&G... SXR line




And a B&G Palmerston...




and a Black&Gold/Lemon Palmerston..





Both localities have shinning examples, just like both localities have some pretty drab looking jungles.
It all comes down to genetics as well as each individual snake!! JMO


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## TrueBlue (Nov 23, 2007)

Like all carpet forms jungles are extremely variable thru out their range, black and gold, and black and yellow jungles can be found in all locales where jungles are found. Certain areas will be more predomiant with a certain form, but most forms can be found in all areas.


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## pugsly (Nov 23, 2007)

The Devil, that is one HOT animal... WOW.

Nice article Nick, looking forward to pics!


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## Colin (Nov 23, 2007)




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## BROWNS (Nov 23, 2007)

You can get black and golds from many localities as said plus all shades inbetween and a black and gold line can also throw such colours as ivory etc,jungles as we all know are a lucky dip and very hard to pick as youngsters generally starting to colour up from 6-12 months usually looking their best around 2 .

Here's a nice black and gold Palmerston and black and gold is a bit of a wide name which covers black and yellows as well,you can get yellows,ivorys,golds etc from the one clutch!


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## BROWNS (Nov 23, 2007)

couple more variations..


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## crush the turtle (Nov 23, 2007)

wow all of ur jungles look wicked..
this is my first b&g jungle "snappy" shes 7-8mnths old
hopefuly shes colour up good 


(click to open pics)
View attachment 35144


View attachment 35145


View attachment 35146


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## Miss B (Nov 23, 2007)

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Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator


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## crush the turtle (Nov 23, 2007)

huh?

EDIT: 














hope this works


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Nov 23, 2007)

your links aren't working Crush.

Admin message comes up saying that the links are invalid


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## fuegan13 (Nov 23, 2007)

lol colin you love throwing that photo around .... beautiful....


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## Goannas1 (Nov 23, 2007)

Colin said:


>



colin what local is that jungle?


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## Colin (Nov 23, 2007)

Its a tully snakeman89


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## BROWNS (Nov 23, 2007)

Up with a few of the best Tullys i've ever seen that one Colin,actually looks like an sxr animal although it's not,i hope it stays that clean for you!Any recent pics of it?


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## Retic (Nov 23, 2007)

Here is a Tully female, a mature animal that still looks as bright and clean as this. 





and this is also a Tully animal


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## caustichumor (Nov 23, 2007)

Yes I have seen a lot of animals marketed as "black and gold" and unless I have some serious vision problems they could not be mistaken for gold or even yellow for that matter. I recently bought an Atherton because it had a nicely defined pattern, now it is not a colourful animal anyway you slice it, but I have seen animals with the same colours sold as B&G.


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## Colin (Nov 23, 2007)

BROWNS said:


> Up with a few of the best Tullys i've ever seen that one Colin,actually looks like an sxr animal although it's not,i hope it stays that clean for you!Any recent pics of it?



thanks. no recent ones Browns but will try and get a few. Its still like that and almost 2 years old. Just keeps getting brighter with each shed. 
It was bred by Roger by the way  

theres a nice SXR line atherton in my gallery (apollo) just had his mum have a pre lay shed last week.


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## gold&black... (Nov 23, 2007)

Good read Nick.... Can't wait for the pic's.....


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## Saz (Nov 23, 2007)

My newest fella, 6yr old male bred by SXR. He's a bit past his prime colour wise, but still a good looker.


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## gold&black... (Nov 24, 2007)

He still is a stunning B/G Saz.... If he was mine, I would sell all his juvies as B/G jungles..... Even though these snakes are so variable with color in the same clutch..... I wasn't lying when I call them B/G..... It's just the buyers bad luck,lol.........


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## The Devil (Nov 24, 2007)

It's interesting to read how people define black and gold in jungles. I've always called mine B&W as I think the first jungle I saw was described as a B&W.
I have also described some of mine as 24 carat gold and others 16 carat gold.

Using such a description maybe a mistake as you don't often see 24 carat gold jewellery in Aust and there is a fair difference in colour between 24 carat and 12 or 16 carat gold.

24 carat gold is more of a dark yellow and the lower the carat ratio goes generally the colour is also a lighter yellow.

Old habits are hard to change as I'll still be referring to mine as B&W's.

The attached pic is the last of the 2006 clutch I sold a couple of months ago


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## BROWNS (Nov 24, 2007)

Do you mean black and whites Nev?If so you may have to change those old habits as yours are as far from being black and white as they come other than maybe as hatchlings????


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## slacker (Nov 24, 2007)

Out of curiosity, what would you all call this one?


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## BROWNS (Nov 24, 2007)

Looks like a mustard yellow colour which still falls in the black and gold category but not the brightest of specimens,is it an Atherton?It could also just be a coastal need to see a head shot!!


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## slacker (Nov 24, 2007)

BROWNS said:


> Looks like a mustard yellow colour which still falls in the black and gold category but not the brightest of specimens,is it an Atherton?It could also just be a coastal need to see a head shot!!




Thanks Browns 

haha. Did you think I was trying to trick you all by posting a coastal without the head? 

He's (apparently) a Tully. I've attached a head shot.


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## BROWNS (Nov 24, 2007)

Yep definitely jungle,some coastals have just as good yellow as some jungles,not a bad Tully probably brighter in the flesh,a jungle freak specimen?


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## slacker (Nov 24, 2007)

BROWNS said:


> Yep definitely jungle,some coastals have just as good yellow as some jungles,not a bad Tully probably brighter in the flesh,a jungle freak specimen?



To be honest I'm not entirely sure who bred the animal, but I got it off rockman on this site.

I'm not really sure how accurate the colours are, but I don't think they're far off (photos upstairs, jungles downstairs). Could depend on monitor calibration as well though. But yeah, while I say I think the colour is fairly accurate, I don't think the photos do him justice. He just looks.... better... in the flesh 

At this stage the plan is to try putting him over two females next year, one of which is mine (see attachment--that photo isn't mine, I might add, it was taken by the previous owner), the other of which is a friend's with colour and pattern closer to my male.


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## The Devil (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks Browns, I should have typed B&G, it was an early morning and I hadn't had my coffee......


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## Jason (Nov 24, 2007)

some great jungles poeple! unfortunatly the wrong discription is given to many snakes! the one that anoys me the most is blond spotted pythons. i have seen so many 'garbage' spotted being labelled as blonds. one of my females was sold to me as a blond and i would never sell her bubs as blonds...it is misleading to say the least, its showing more and more these days when people are reselling pythons under incorrectly labelled names


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## slacker (Nov 24, 2007)

Jason said:


> some great jungles poeple! unfortunatly the wrong discription is given to many snakes! the one that anoys me the most is blond spotted pythons. i have seen so many 'garbage' spotted being labelled as blonds. one of my females was sold to me as a blond and i would never sell her bubs as blonds...it is misleading to say the least, its showing more and more these days when people are reselling pythons under incorrectly labelled names



Worse than that, there's things going around that have been completely misidentified... like some "red phase coastal" carpets I saw recently on the tradingpost website.... looked suspiciously like bredli, but god knows whether it was a hybrid or someone who just didn't know the difference between a bredli or a coastal!


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## Jason (Nov 24, 2007)

should be an interesting few yrs ahead to see what way the hobby goes in australia! it really bugs me seeing poeple mis liabelling snakes to get an extra few dollars!


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## Matty007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Is the one on the right Black and Gold ??? Matty


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## slacker (Nov 24, 2007)

That's what I'd call a Black and Gold, Matty. Fairly similar to my female, actually.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 24, 2007)

Matty007 said:


> Is the one on the right Black and Gold ??? Matty


 
B&G while the other one look like a "red phase coastal"


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## slacker (Nov 24, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> B&G while the other one look like a "red phase coastal"



I was thinking that, myself :lol:


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## Rare (Nov 24, 2007)

Personally I would say a B&G is a jungle with very vibrant yellow and a jet black.


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## Matty007 (Nov 25, 2007)

The one on the left is a Tully !! Only young though. Matty


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## pugsly (Nov 26, 2007)

Any reason its in with a Bredli???

I have seen first hand what mixing species can do... I should post the pic of the olive eating the intergrade again...


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## Matty007 (Nov 26, 2007)

I had them all in there for a tidy up. They love each other :shock: Na , they dont live together and i dont need to see that pic again. Cheers Mate


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## Charlie (Feb 4, 2008)

Just reviving this thread in the hope that viridis will post those pics


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