# Brumation???



## andradespb (Nov 27, 2017)

Hi guys, I'm new here and don't even know if I'll get any replies but... I've recently (last month) got three bearded dragons and am new into these lil guys. There are two females and one male. Two of them (Male and female) are very active and doing very well, the male noticeably bigger. But the other female is burying under the paper towels (which I use for substrate) and has been sleeping for DAYS. I have woken her up a couple times only for water, as I think she is brumating and I don't want it to last longer than it should. But shouldn't all of them hit brumatiion at the same time? And she is constantly purposefully seeking the cold. Anyone plz help??

Thank you,
Sander

Here are they
Shes the one hiding under the paper towels. The male has a missing tail,as it was bitten off in their juvenile days












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## pinefamily (Nov 27, 2017)

Welcome to the forum.
How old are these beardies? Did you buy them from someone who kept all three together?

Without hearing your answers, I think your beardie isn't bromating, but hiding away from the other(s). It probably feels threatened, and one or both of the others could be showing signs of dominance. If the one hiding away isn't eating, then that could be why it's hiding at the cool end, to conserve its energy.
The golden rule of keeping beardies is to keep them separate, mainly because of situations like this. They are solitary creatures, only coming together for mating.
The other issue I see, and is a potential long term problem, is the use of paper towel. Sand is the best substrate for beardies, bar none. With paper towel, you can end up nail problems down the track. Washed play sand is the best.


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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> How old are these beardies? Did you buy them from someone who kept all three together?
> 
> Without hearing your answers, I think your beardie isn't bromating, but hiding away from the other(s). It probably feels threatened, and one or both of the others could be showing signs of dominance. If the one hiding away isn't eating, then that could be why it's hiding at the cool end, to conserve its energy.
> ...



Thank you for the welcome and for replying Pinefamily. 
The beardies are almost 2 yrs old and they were given to us by a neighbor that breeds beardies. The one "hiding" seems to be sleeping all of the time because her eyes are always closed. And she hasn't been eating. She'll only eat a little bit when I wake her up. The three were kept together since they were born btw. Again thank you for replying and I hope this clarifies the issue.

- Sander


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## pinefamily (Nov 29, 2017)

andradespb said:


> Thank you for the welcome and for replying Pinefamily.
> The beardies are almost 2 yrs old and they were given to us by a neighbor that breeds beardies. The one "hiding" seems to be sleeping all of the time because her eyes are always closed. And she hasn't been eating. She'll only eat a little bit when I wake her up. The three were kept together since they were born btw. Again thank you for replying and I hope this clarifies the issue.
> 
> - Sander


It's the wrong time of year for brumation so it can only either be as I said above a dominance issue or that beardie is sick and needs a bet check.
I would first put that one in a separate tank and see if it perks up. If it still hides away and doesn't eat then it's a trip to a reptile vet.

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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> It's the wrong time of year for brumation so it can only either be as I said above a dominance issue or that beardie is sick and needs a bet check.
> I would first put that one in a separate tank and see if it perks up. If it still hides away and doesn't eat then it's a trip to a reptile vet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Ok, yeah I'll switch her over to another tank. And if she still doesn't do well then the vet it is. I Appreciate the help.
- Sander


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## Scutellatus (Nov 29, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> It's the wrong time of year for brumation so it can only either be as I said above a dominance issue or that beardie is sick and needs a BET check.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Is that so we can work out what odds to put on it?


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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Is that so we can work out what odds to put on it?


[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> It's the wrong time of year for brumation so it can only either be as I said above a dominance issue or that beardie is sick and needs a bet check.
> I would first put that one in a separate tank and see if it perks up. If it still hides away and doesn't eat then it's a trip to a reptile vet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


So I woke her up and gave her a bath and warmed her up. She is currently eating many mealworms (Her favorite) but constantly checking the cage. So my best guess is that it really is the territorial behaviours. Thank you so much guys





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## Bl69aze (Nov 29, 2017)

andradespb said:


> So I woke her up and gave her a bath and warmed her up. She is currently eating many mealworms (Her favorite) but constantly checking the cage. So my best guess is that it really is the territorial behaviours. Thank you so much guys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She’s checking the coast is clear from those bullies! :’)


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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> She’s checking the coast is clear from those bullies! :’)


Right [emoji23]

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## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 29, 2017)

andradespb said:


> She is currently eating many mealworms (Her favorite)



Needs a good level of veg in its diet too.


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## GBWhite (Nov 29, 2017)

She needs a bit of fattening up too, also looks like it has a toe missing from it's front foot. Try and steer her away from the mealworms and get her eating vegies & crickets and/or woodies and try to feed her as much as she'll eat daily (dust the crickets or woodies with some calcium powder about every third day). Make sure she has a good hot basking spot and a UV light in her new enclosure and as pinefamily has suggested get rid of the paper substrate.


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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> She needs a bit of fattening up too, also looks like it has a toe missing from it's front foot. Try and steer her away from the mealworms and get her eating vegies & crickets and/or woodies and try to feed her as much as she'll eat daily (dust the crickets or woodies with some calcium powder about every third day). Make sure she has a good hot basking spot and a UV light in her new enclosure and as pinefamily has suggested get rid of the paper substrate.


She's not missing a toe, it was curled. I've been feeding her as much as she can eat, she doesn't really go for the crickets. And she apparently does want to sleep.





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## GBWhite (Nov 29, 2017)

Good to hear she's not missing a toe. She probably wants to sleep because she's cold and looks to be undernourished and probably dehydrated as well and probably suffering a bit of anxiety from domination by the other two. Put her in a separate enclosure and provide her with suitable heat and UV and you should see a different lizard in a week or two. The mealworms aren't good as the main food source as they don't provide a great deal of nutrition and the outer shell builds up in the lizard's gut which over time will cause what is known as impaction. If you're not aware Bearded's usually don't recognise standing water and the best way to make sure they get a drink is to lightly spray their heads with fresh clean drinking water and watch them drink it down as it passes over their lips. They will also lick it off the walls as it drips down. If you haven't already, google care sheets for Bearded Dragons or better yet buy yourself a book on the subject.


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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> Good to hear she's not missing a toe. She probably wants to sleep because she's cold and looks to be undernourished and probably dehydrated as well and probably suffering a bit of anxiety from domination by the other two. Put her in a separate enclosure and provide her with suitable heat and UV and you should see a different lizard in a week or two. The mealworms aren't good as the main food source as they don't provide a great deal of nutrition and the outer shell builds up in the lizard's gut which over time will cause what is known as impaction. If you're not aware Bearded's usually don't recognise standing water and the best way to make sure they get a drink is to lightly spray their heads with fresh clean drinking water and watch them drink it down as it passes over their lips. They will also lick it off the walls as it drips down. If you haven't already, google care sheets for Bearded Dragons or better yet buy yourself a book on the subject.


Thank you for the info!! I will do so right away 


Sorry guys another thing, what if she is intentionally seeking the cold? And dark


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## GBWhite (Nov 29, 2017)

She shouldn't be at this time of the year. The actions you describe present as a lizard that's being dominated over food and out competed for a basking spot which in turn wouldn't provide her with enough opportunity to reach her prefered body temperature to eat or be active. However if this behaviour persists it would suggest there are other issues to consider. Try doing as suggested and see what happens.


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## andradespb (Nov 29, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> She shouldn't be at this time of the year. The actions you describe present as a lizard that's being dominated over food and out competed for a basking spot which in turn wouldn't provide her with enough opportunity to reach her prefered body temperature to eat or be active. However if this behaviour persists it would suggest there are other issues to consider. Try doing as suggested and see what happens.


Ok, I'll do that then


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## pinefamily (Nov 29, 2017)

Whether you use crickets, woodies or mealworms, dust them with multivitamins and calcium (some products have the two combined). She might be lacking in vitamins if she isn't eating, and this could be the reason she is looking "sleepy" and seeking the cold.
@Scutellatus, that's what happens when I use my phone without my reading glasses, lol. You can BET I'll make a mistake.


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## andradespb (Nov 30, 2017)

So I've got news, I am not able to move her to another tank, for my folks won't let me give her a basking light in another location but the tank she's in. So I put her back in the tank and I noticed aggression inflicted upon her from the other female and the male. She is going around "asking" for permission from the others if she can do basically anything in the tank. I say asking because before she does something she waves her arms at one of them and if they wave back she continues, if they don't then she goes hiding. So I might separate her from the others in the tank with some kind of wall.


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## GBWhite (Nov 30, 2017)

The arm waving is not asking for permission. It's believed to be associated with either or both of two things. 1. Species recognition (i.e - Letting another bearded dragon (or dragons) know that it is aware of it/their presence). 2. Submission (i.e - When a larger and/or more dominant BD is present). The other two are not going to just roll over and allow this one to take the top basking spot or share food items.

If you are going to use a wall to separate them then you are still going to have to provide her with her own basking light. Tell your folks that it is imperative for the wellbeing of the lizard or otherwise it will just slowly whittle away and die.


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## andradespb (Nov 30, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> The arm waving is not asking for permission. It's believed to be associated with either or both of two things. 1. Species recognition (i.e - Letting another bearded dragon (or dragons) know that it is aware of it/their presence). 2. Submission (i.e - When a larger and/or more dominant BD is present). The other two are not going to just roll over and allow this one to take the top basking spot or share food items.
> 
> If you are going to use a wall to separate them then you are still going to have to provide her with her own basking light. Tell your folks that it is imperative for the wellbeing of the lizard or otherwise it will just slowly whittle away and die.


Ok. The wall thing is a go. Authough she has been basking all day in the presence of the other female??? This is so confusing


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## Snapped (Nov 30, 2017)

No confusion necessary, Beardies should kept separate, having 3 together is asking for trouble, as you have witnessed. 

If you can't provide separate tanks, or safely divide the tank, then you are going to end up with injured/dead Bearded dragons.

Please remove the female TODAY, make a temprorary wall, cardboard, mdf, whatever....if you do it correctly they can share the basking light, or just buy another lamp. If your folks won't allow it, then you'll have to rehome two of your dragons and keep one single one.

Beardies are territorial and will fight to maintain top position, food and heat. They bite toes, tails, some of them lose their limbs, and all bites are prone to infection.

Have a read of this link, it will show you WHY and what can happen when housing beardies together.

http://www.beardeddragonlady.com/housing.html


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## MANNING (Nov 30, 2017)

andradespb said:


> .. my folks won't let me give her a basking light in another location but the tank she's in.



Was there a reason? 
What's your around about location.? 
I'd be able to possibly lend you one until other arrangements can be made


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## andradespb (Dec 1, 2017)

MANNING said:


> Was there a reason?
> What's your around about location.?
> I'd be able to possibly lend you one until other arrangements can be made


I live in Graham Washington. 


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 4, 2017)

andradespb said:


> …This is so confusing



It actually only to be expected. Every time one re-houses a group of lizards that have a social hierarchy, most especially species that are territorial, they will go through the process of re-establishing their hierarchy and territory in their new surrounds. Your situation has the added fact that these reptiles are now well and truly sexually mature and that is very likely to increases their dominant/submissive behaviours.

Your analogy of “asking permission” is pretty close to the mark. The subordinate female is signalling submission by arm waving to the dominant female. If there is no response then it means the placating behaviour has not been accepted. Therefore if the subordinate were to attempts to mix at this point, a physically aggressive interaction is likely. As stated by others, it is not recommended to house bearded dragons together. I know of only two successful examples and they both involved providing the lizards with free range of the reptile room for two or more hours each day. The keepers were non-working housewives. 

I agree that some form of barrier to separate the subordinate female from the other two is immediately necessary. In the long term she clearly needs to be re-housed, as half of an enclosure is not fair on any of the lizards. Given your stated circumstances, that likely means finding a new home for it. Even when that is done you still have a male and female in the one cage to consider. I don’t know how large the enclosure is and how much visual privacy the cage layout provides. Dried thick tussock grasses in pots are an excellent visual screen because the dragons don’t tend sit on top of them if provided with rocks and branches. Setting up a visual barrier to divide up the basking is a good interim idea. I assume your mum’s objection are money based. You could work out the purchase and running costs of another basking spot and then do something to earn the money to pay for these. Irrespective, you would need to constantly on the lookout for any signs of aggressive interactions. It is so much simpler housing them singularly as soon as you are able to do so.

There are a number of really good comprehensive websites devoted to Bearded Dragons E.g. https://www.beardeddraco.com/ , http://www.thebeardeddragon.org/ , http://www.beardeddragontime.com/ .


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