# Help! Need to find out what this substrate is - Vermiculite ?



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 3, 2014)

Hey!
I bought this amazing substrate from the VHS reptile expo and want more! I cannot locate the seller I got it from. I think i got it from SECA reptiles but they don't have a website or anything. Is there any where else I can get it or get more info on it? It appears to be made for cork and is very shiny and makes my snakes really shiny too.












*Mod Note:* This topic was originally posted over two threads, which have subsequently been merged into this one. Where necessary, quotes have been added to preserve thread continuity.


----------



## AUSHERP (Mar 3, 2014)

It looks like vermiculite to me. It is a water holding medium you can find it at bunnings usually in the garden section. If thats what it is


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 3, 2014)

Yes [MENTION=6886]AUSHERP[/MENTION] it looks the same to me and I am not sure how well it would go as a substrate.


----------



## MesseNoire (Mar 3, 2014)

You can also buy it in a "cat litter" form from petbarn now too. I can't remember the price though.


----------



## turtle (Mar 3, 2014)

I thought that vermiculite can be quite toxic if digested not to mention the other complications.

just a thought!


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

I was told it was organic, and it was sold from someone who breeds reptiles pretty sure they wouldn't sell something toxic at a reptile expo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ramy (Mar 4, 2014)

Assuming it's vermiculite, it shouldn't be toxic, though it's a mineral not "organic" (which is a term that has lost all meaning). It's still a substrate that holds water, sticks to wet food items, and doesn't break down in a digestive tract. Best not to swallow too much of it.

Looks too shiny to be made of cork or wood chip...


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

So it shouldn't make my snakes unwell? I am freaking out now 





turtle said:


> I thought that vermiculite can be quite toxic if digested not to mention the other complications.
> 
> just a thought!



What other complications? :/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

*Vermiculite as a substrate?*

I have been informed that the substrate I bought from a reptile expo is vermiculite. Is it safe to have this in my snakes terrariums? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Woma_Wild (Mar 4, 2014)

Only uses I know of for vermiculite is in horticulture and the building industry for fire proofing. 
Did a google search for you- it's also used a cat litter.

Sorry, not much help to you re: use as a substrate.

All I could find is that it's used in horticulture and in the building industry and used as a cat litter.
I would not be feeding my animals on it in any case. 

Apparently it swells with heat.


----------



## Umbral (Mar 4, 2014)

With all the other substrates that are available and have been used for years I'm not sure I would risk it.


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 4, 2014)

The msds for it says that it is inert meaning it will not react with other substances but can be irritating to the gastrointestinal tract , eyes and lungs in large amounts which I would think 24 hours 7 days a week would be. That is for humans and not reptiles but I think that I would not take the risk. It also would not be digestible and can absorb up to 300% of its volume in fluid which could possibly dehydrate your reptile if swallowed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drazzy (Mar 4, 2014)

If it is indeed vermiculite.

Vermiculite contains *drum roll* Asbestos.

"Today, most vermiculite is safe. However, that is not to say it cannot contain asbestos. Vermiculite which is accompanied by a great deal of dust likely has residual asbestos in its contents and should be used with caution. Current EPA regulations ban products which contain 1% or more asbestos. Unfortunately even products containing less that 1% asbestos are still extremely hazardous, particularly when in loose dust form as vermiculite often is manufactured."

quoted from. Vermiculite and Asbestos: how to minimize the risks | Eartheasy Blog

Use news paper 

Happy herping Hayley


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 4, 2014)

Yeah , I posted in the other thread and thought the information was worth sharing in this one for those that did not realise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for the info Drazzy!
I have removed this from my snakes enclosures.
I can't believe someone would sell this at a reptile expo. I am so infuriated and disappointed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ramsayi (Mar 4, 2014)

I wouldn't consider using vermiculite as a substrate.Apart from tiny pieces sticking really well to anything that it touches it also sucks moisture from the air which would lead to an even lower humidity that enclosures already have.



Drazzy said:


> Vermiculite contains *drum roll* Asbestos.



Not necessarily



Drazzy said:


> "Today, most vermiculite is safe. However, that is not to say it cannot contain asbestos. Vermiculite which is accompanied by a great deal of dust likely has residual asbestos in its contents and should be used with caution. Current EPA regulations ban products which contain 1% or more asbestos. Unfortunately even products containing less that 1% asbestos are still extremely hazardous, particularly when in loose dust form as vermiculite often is manufactured."



Depends on the location it has been dug up from.If there was no asbestos in that area then it wouldn't contain asbestos.Also with the knowledge as it is today about asbestos companies would most likely dig up vermiculite from clean areas.


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

I am so angry that this was sold to me!  
It had been in my snakes enclosure for nearly two weeks. Would they be okay? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Senator358 (Mar 4, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> Thanks for the info Drazzy!
> I have removed this from my snakes enclosures.
> I can't believe someone would sell this at a reptile expo. I am so infuriated and disappointed.
> 
> ...



It is sold at expos because it is widely used for incubation substrate. Maybe you misunderstood the purpose.


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

Senator358 said:


> It is sold at expos because it is widely used for incubation substrate. Maybe you misunderstood the purpose.



No i did not. It was pushed onto me as 'an amazing substrate, that retains moisture well and decreases the smell of urine'. I was approached about it and given a big sales pitch about how great it is as a substrate for reptiles. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 4, 2014)

If there are no ill signs I would think that it will be ok. As for the asbestos I think there is a very slim chance that it would have any in the vermiculite and if it did there is no study of effects on reptiles. I would not worry about it. Vermiculite does not have any long term effects after removed. 

It just shows that it pays to research every bit of information that you are told before making a change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

Oh phew! Okay that's good. It has been removed now. 




andynic07 said:


> It just shows that it pays to research every bit of information that you are told before making a change.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah that is very true. I just assumed because it was being sold at a reptile expo that surely it would be safe. My mistake. Obviously some people will sell anything to make a quick buck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 4, 2014)

They also sell heat rocks which a lot of keepers including myself consider unsafe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Senator358 (Mar 4, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> Yeah that is very true. I just assumed because it was being sold at a reptile expo that surely it would be safe. My mistake. Obviously some people will sell anything to make a quick buck.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



As I said, it is widely used as a incubation medium. That is why it is sold at reptile expos.


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

Yeah that's true but also widely known.
They weren't advertising what the substrate was made of. The were just selling it saying how amazing it was. I should have asked what it contained. Once again my mistake. Just assumed a reptile retailer wouldn't sell something so hazardous as a substrate. Will know better next time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Senator358 (Mar 4, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> No i did not. It was pushed onto me as 'an amazing substrate, that retains moisture well and decreases the smell of urine'. I was approached about it and given a big sales pitch about how great it is as a substrate for reptiles.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Either way it is sold at expos for that reason and I have never heard of anyone using it or selling it as substrate. It is a shame that someone would approach you and try to sell it as such.


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

Senator358 said:


> As I said, it is widely used as a incubation medium. That is why it is sold at reptile expos.



They were not selling it solely for that purpose! It was pushed onto me as a substrate for my snakes! That is why I am annoyed. If I had just bought it and not asked what it was for it would be my fault however they approached me! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Senator358 (Mar 4, 2014)

Yeah it sucks. Can't believe anything anyone says nowadays.


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

Senator358 said:


> Either way it is sold at expos for that reason and I have never heard of anyone using it or selling it as substrate. It is a shame that someone would approach you and try to sell it as such.






I know. Very disappointing. Just glad I realised as soon as I did so it wasn't in with my snakes for long enough to do damage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 4, 2014)

It is not really that hazardous. It will cause mild irritations but in my opinion not worth the risk. It probably does everything else the seller said and they may not have come across or realised the problems yet. I really don't think there would be any bad intentions just someone who thought they had a great idea worth sharing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

Yeah I suppose but as a seller and reptile retailer it is their responsibility to find out the risks before they sell it to others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ramsayi (Mar 4, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> Yeah I suppose but as a seller and reptile retailer it is their responsibility to find out the risks before they sell it to others.



Was it being sold for use as a substrate or for use in incubation?


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 4, 2014)

As a substrate. As i have said, I was approached about it and told it was a substrate and that it reduces the smell of urine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drsimpson (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi all,
One of my few posts on this forum but I feel I need to comment on this thread to correct some of the information being presented.

HayleyChuck93 already knows me feelings towards the use of vermiculite as a substrate as we have already had a "discussion" on a Facebook page that she posed the same question. Unfortunately she deleted the post and so no-one else can see my comments...

As a matter of transparency I do not endorse the company that is producing vermiculite nor have I received any financial gain from them for the following comments. I was approached by them to get my opinion on their product and its suitability for the use of it as a substrate for reptiles. I have been provided with a quantity of vermiculite substrate to trial for my own animals as I have now been doing for several weeks. As with any products that I am asked about I do extensive research into the safety, manufacture etc. before I make any comment.

In short I believe that in my experience so far and with the information that I have been provided vermiculite is actually a very good, very safe substrate!

To correct some of the information posted:

1. Vermiculite is not toxic if ingested. In fact it has been used in the veterinary and agricultural industries for years. It is used a carrier for medicinal applications and is fed to livestock. There are no reported toxicities in those species. While there is no data for reptiles species given the simplicity of their gut anatomy compared to that of cows, sheep etc. I would be more than comfortable suggesting it is safe in reptiles. Basically if a cow's stomach cannot break it down than a snake's is unlikely to!

2. Vermiculite does not swell with heat once it has been initially heat treated. Vermiculite is a mineral substance that is a by-product of the mining industry such as copper mining. When it comes out of the ground if is in flakes much like "fish food" flakes. It is heated and expands to its size that we see it being sold as. The heating process requires temperatures in the range of 600 degrees I believe ie. a lot hotter than it will ever get in a reptile enclosure!

3. Asbestos... In the 1970s and 1980's some vermiculite that was mined by the 3M company in the USA contained asbestos and was sold to US customers. The product mined here in Australia is certified asbestos-free and the mine site(s) are tested every 3 months. The testing is done by an independent company. I have been provided with the latest report that indicates it asbestos free. I also point out that vermiculite is used in many, many products (eg. vegetable and flower growing, grape and wine production, hydroponics, insulation, plasterboard, brake linings etc)... basically you are all being exposed to it pretty much all the time... given what we know about asbestos I am quite sure the companies that manufacture it and sell it will be making 100% sure there is no asbestos in it.

4. "Vermiculite sucks moisture out of the air".... I would dispute that. Why? Because I have tested it myself. This was one of the concerns I had regarding the product but I have now tested it in my own collection. I have measured the humidity using an Exo-Terra digital hygrometer in an enclosure housing a Central Bearded Dragon that was housed on Breeders Choice Cat litter. The temperature at the location I measured it was 28 degrees. The humidity read 41%. I replaced the cat litter with newspaper and did the same measurement several hours later. The humidity read... 41%. I then replaced the newspaper with vermiculite substrate taken directly from an unopened bag and measured the humidity again several hours later. It was reading.... 40%! That is a 1% drop in humdity. Just to be sure I left it overnight and check again. It was still sitting at 40%. The humidity in the room during the whole testing ranged from 44-46% humidity. It would appear on this small test basis that vermiculite does not remove water from the air.

Some other comments and observations I have noted while using/testing the product:
1. It is not messy at all. Once in the enclosure the product actually packs down quite tightly and the dragons I have had on it can walk around on it with no issues. 
2. The product I have been supplied and that will be/is commercially available is of a smaller grade than that in the photos posted. 
3. Any faecal/urate material deposited on it gets covered in the vermiculite and dried out quite quickly. It is then easily picked up and removed during spot cleaning.
4. I have noticed less smell in the enclosures.
5. It is not dusty. All particles under 2.5mm are removed in the manufacturing process. When pouring it out of the bags there is noticeably no dust.
6. Given its insulative properties it seems ideal for keeping heat in an enclosure and it is less of a fire risk should a heat lamp etc fall onto the surface of it.
7. It can be disposed of easily onto the garden or in the household rubbish.
8. It is using a by-product of the mining industy.
9. It looks good!

The choice of what substrate to use is a personal one and is one that often causes MUCH debate!!!
I encourage anyone to always research PROPERLY and from APPROPRIATE sources when making any decisions that could potentially affect the health of their animals.

In nutshell though I have found vermiculite an excellent substrate and have no hesitation recommending it to my clients.

Regards,
Dr. Shane Simpson
Karingal Veterinary Hospital


----------



## JAS101 (Mar 10, 2014)

wow thanks for your input shane , and thanks for the testing .


----------



## disintegratus (Mar 10, 2014)

Dr Simpson, do you happen to know if the vermiculite you are testing differs in any significant way from the vermiculite commonly available from garden stores etc that is usually used as an incubation medium?


----------



## tahnia666 (Mar 10, 2014)

Awesome  thanks

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## drsimpson (Mar 10, 2014)

disintegratus said:


> Dr Simpson, do you happen to know if the vermiculite you are testing differs in any significant way from the vermiculite commonly available from garden stores etc that is usually used as an incubation medium?



It is the same product i.e. it is all vermiculite. The product I have been supplied though is a finer grade than what I have seen and used as an incubation medium and can be bought at garden stores. They "cut up" the flakes into smaller pieces before heating it. My concern with the larger pieces was that they would not compact down into a nice firm substrate and this is what the manufacturer felt too. I have not tested it myself though.


----------



## disintegratus (Mar 10, 2014)

Thank you


----------



## RedFox (Mar 10, 2014)

Very interesting [MENTION=13291]drsimpson[/MENTION]. I might give it a go in some of my enclosures.


----------



## Ramsayi (Mar 10, 2014)

Vermiculite is hygroscopic.


----------



## chris.w (Mar 10, 2014)

*Chris*

Vermiculite is a good option in an incubator to hold moisture and maintain humidity levels but not much good as a substrate, so in someone's defence they may have stocked it as an "incubator substrate" and not intended it to be used in your enclosure, your snake will not eat it intentionally, but may digest some if it comes in contact with its food, use news paper and problem solved.


----------



## AnimalsGirl (Mar 10, 2014)

You could also try using a more natural substrate, trying to re-create an environment to simulate where your snakes may occur in the wild - newspaper is not the only other option  Also, if you have arboreal snakes, feeding them whilst they are up in their branches well above the substrate can alleviate issues of debris sticking to food items and being unintentionally ingested.

Just a thought - we like to keep things as close to nature as we possibly can and have never had issues with our snakes or lizards


----------



## Rogue5861 (Mar 10, 2014)

I believe the product Dr Shane Simpson has been supplied with also had little to no dust unlike what you can purchase from bunnings. It seems like another suitable substrate to use but of course everyone uses what works best for them.

I wouldnt expect big breeders to be swapping out their tried and trusted substrate for this new one, but what is to stop people trialing this new substrate? I would say the only thing stopping them is uneducated people spreading misconceptions about it.

Ive tried a few substrates with some of the different species i keep (frogs, geckos, monitors, beardies and pythons). I have found some products that work well for me and my animals and will be sticking to these, tried and tested by myself and other keepers i trust what i am using. Coco peat, play sand, red sand, paper pellets, news paper and some mixes are what are working for me currently for different species.

For incubation i use the "over water" method and have had no reason to swap to vermiculite. I know others that use sphagnum, sand, coco or vermiculite with success.

I say dont knock it until you have tried it, having an opinion on something without an education is just misleading others.


Rick


----------



## serpenttongue (Mar 10, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> Thanks for the info Drazzy!
> I have removed this from my snakes enclosures.
> I can't believe someone would sell this at a reptile expo. I am so infuriated and disappointed.



Are you sure it was being sold as a substrate and not as an egg-incubating medium?


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 10, 2014)

serpenttongue said:


> Are you sure it was being sold as a substrate and not as an egg-incubating medium?



Yes it was as the doctor just said it is being sold by companies for this purpose now apparently. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 10, 2014)

drsimpson said:


> Hi all,
> One of my few posts on this forum but I feel I need to comment on this thread to correct some of the information being presented.
> 
> HayleyChuck93 already knows me feelings towards the use of vermiculite as a substrate as we have already had a "discussion" on a Facebook page that she posed the same question. Unfortunately she deleted the post and so no-one else can see my comments...
> ...



I didn't delete the post so that no one could see your comments Shane, I deleted it because the initial photo post was about me finding out where the substrate came from, and once I found out I felt it no longer needed to be there. 
Forums are the perfect place for this information. Not on a random photo post "discussion" on Facebook. 
Cheers������


And in regards to there being no dust I have actually found that there is a rather large amount of dust or small particles. There is noticeably dust on the bags it is contained in, after I have touched it there is small particles on my hand, and there was also dust in my snakes water dishes when I was using it as a substrate. So I should definitely not be concerned about this dust?
















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rogue5861 (Mar 10, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> And in regards to there being no dust I have actually found that there is a rather large amount of dust or small particles. There is noticeably dust on the bags it is contained in, after I have touched it there is small particles on my hand, and there was also dust in my snakes water dishes when I was using it as a substrate. So I should definitely not be concerned about this dust?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Im not sure if you can wash out vermiculite but if it was me i would try and remove the majority of the dust, i dont think inhaling it is best for you or the snake. Either wash it out or shake it over some mesh outside.


Rick


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 10, 2014)

Rogue5861 said:


> Im not sure if you can wash out vermiculite but if it was me i would try and remove the majority of the dust, i dont think inhaling it is best for you or the snake. Either wash it out or shake it over some mesh outside.
> 
> 
> Rick



So inhaling this dust could be potentially dangerous to myself and my snakes? 
Sadly I don't think those methods would help as the dust just breaks away from the vermiculite itself. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rogue5861 (Mar 10, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> So inhaling this dust could be potentially dangerous to myself and my snakes?
> Sadly I don't think those methods would help as the dust just breaks away from the vermiculite itself.
> 
> 
> ...



Probably not, but was just suggesting a way of reducing the dust. I would just give it a good misting once in the cage and be happy with it.

The coco coir (fiber) i use for my jungle python is a little bit dusty but i havent had an issues with him on it at all, it cleans up really easy and absorbs any waste the snake passes.


Rick


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 11, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rogue5861 (Mar 11, 2014)

I think most product with any type of dust could carry this sort of warning. Sand, paper pellets or coco coir can all produce dust and could possible cause issues.


Rick


----------



## zulu (Mar 11, 2014)

Get rid of the vermiculite ,types of small pebbles are best as substrate if you dont like the look of newspaper and dont come with dust etc. Plant based substrates are a haven for moisture and mites.


----------



## drsimpson (Mar 11, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> I didn't delete the post so that no one could see your comments Shane, I deleted it because the initial photo post was about me finding out where the substrate came from, and once I found out I felt it no longer needed to be there.
> Forums are the perfect place for this information. Not on a random photo post "discussion" on Facebook.
> Cheers������
> 
> ...



Looking at the photos I would be 99.9% sure you have been sold horticultural grade vermiculite. Noticed how all the particles are different sizes. The product I have been given does not have that. They are all the same size and there is also definitely no dust like what you have in the bag and on your hands. Also when I run the product through my hands nothing comes off it in the way of dust or small particles.
The company that produces the one for pet beeding and cat litter has gone to great pains to remove the small particles as they did not want it to "track" i.e. cat goes into the litter tray and then walks the litter out of the tray and all over the house.
As far as breathing it in it will be no more dangerous than what you would get with paper pellets, Aspen snake bedding, coconut fibres etc.
I doubt you will be able to wash it because all the particles will float and it would VERY time consuming.
As I wrote above I would have no problems using vermiculite as a substrate but it appears that you need to make sure you get the right "grade".


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 11, 2014)

I got this vermiculite from SECA. I thought you had previously said to me you got the same vermiculite from the same supplier?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Octoborg (Mar 11, 2014)

http://www.exfoliators.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/VERMICULITE-CHEMICAL-ANALYSIS.pdf 

The first component on the list is silica (SiO2) at 38-46%. I have found a couple of cases of silicosis in reptiles floating around the internet that have re-raised my concerns. Could you please explain and clarify to me that this will not become problematic, say, if dust is produced when the vermiculite rubbed together. Because the vermiculite did appear to work wonderfully as a substrate and I would still very much like to use it, but this will only be once I know that it is 100% safe for long-term use. 

Andrew


----------



## Senator358 (Mar 11, 2014)

If in doubt, throw it out. With so many concerns I would just be done with it and use something else.


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 11, 2014)

What period of time did you trial the substrate over Shane [MENTION=13291]drsimpson[/MENTION]? Was the stuff that you were given a prototype or regular production stuff because I would imagine that they would give you the best quality product if that was in their control since it was a trial?


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 11, 2014)

Octoborg said:


> The first component on the list is silica (SiO2) at 38-46%. I have found a couple of cases of silicosis in reptiles floating around the internet that have re-raised my concerns. Could you please explain and clarify to me that this will not become problematic, say, if dust is produced when the vermiculite rubbed together. Because the vermiculite did appear to work wonderfully as a substrate and I would still very much like to use it, but this will only be once I know that it is 100% safe for long-term use.



SiO2= Sand. The stuff that makes up most of our environment.


----------



## drsimpson (Mar 11, 2014)

HayleyChuck93 said:


> I got this vermiculite from SECA. I thought you had previously said to me you got the same vermiculite from the same supplier?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I got mine from the same supplier that I believe the person from SECA got theirs from. The supplier makes different grades (or particle sizes) for different uses. What I am suggesting looking at the images you posted is that the product you got may have been a larger and more varied particle size than the one I have i.e. is vermiculite but a different product.


----------



## Rogue5861 (Mar 11, 2014)

I heard they will be selling this at petbarn in the near future, have you heard anything about this [MENTION=13291]drsimpson[/MENTION]?


Rick


----------



## HayleyChuck93 (Mar 11, 2014)

drsimpson said:


> I got mine from the same supplier that I believe the person from SECA got theirs from. The supplier makes different grades (or particle sizes) for different uses. What I am suggesting looking at the images you posted is that the product you got may have been a larger and more varied particle size than the one I have i.e. is vermiculite but a different product.



I got two different sized grades of vermiculite. Both have dust. Dust breaks off both grades because it flakes away from the vermiculite. They were selling it as a substrate so why would they sell it for that if it's not the right grade...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drsimpson (Mar 11, 2014)

Octoborg said:


> http://www.exfoliators.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/VERMICULITE-CHEMICAL-ANALYSIS.pdf
> 
> The first component on the list is silica (SiO2) at 38-46%. I have found a couple of cases of silicosis in reptiles floating around the internet that have re-raised my concerns. Could you please explain and clarify to me that this will not become problematic, say, if dust is produced when the vermiculite rubbed together. Because the vermiculite did appear to work wonderfully as a substrate and I would still very much like to use it, but this will only be once I know that it is 100% safe for long-term use.
> 
> Andrew



Some good points Andrew

The "cases" of silicosis I found doing some research today all seem to relate to actually one case that was published in Frye's book in 1995. Interesting case and pathology results certainly appear consistent with silicosis. It is interesting to note though that they mention that the affected animal (a green iguana) was housed on a high-silicate commercial cat litter. It does not state the name/type of the litter and given this was written nearly 10 years ago I would be pretty certain it was not a vermiculite cat litter as it did not exist then (vermiculite did but not as a cat litter!).

Which brings me to silicosis... this is a pulmonary disease caused by the inhalation of CRYSTALLINE silica. This form of silica is not found in the vermiculite. In fact in the quarterly report I have been supplied it states "X-ray diffractometry of the chemically digested bulk material generally detected no concentrations of crystalline silica present in the samples of vermiculite". I also found a number of other articles discussing the apparent lack of long term health issues in miners working in vermiculite mines.

I would never say that any product is going to 100% safe for a reptile. The fact is that almost all substrates on the market have their pluses and minuses. They all have their risks and benefits. The fact is that our animals breathe in many potentially dangerous chemicals in their enclosures every day (e.g. dust from substrates, fungal spores from wet timber, insecticides sprayed directly into enclosures to treat mites, smoke from melamine enclosures being heated by poorly located heat lamps etc.)

One a potential risk level I would put vermiculite very far down my list based on what I have experienced and read.

- - - Updated - - -



andynic07 said:


> What period of time did you trial the substrate over Shane @drsimpson? Was the stuff that you were given a prototype or regular production stuff because I would imagine that they would give you the best quality product if that was in their control since it was a trial?



I have been using it for 3 weeks. Only a short time but so far I have been impressed with it.
The product I was given was not a prototype. It is the same material that is commercially available through Pet Barn stores. It goes under the name "Natural Pet Litter" and if you Google that you will find their website. It was supplied to me in the bags that it is sold in.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe it is already on sale there.

Haley and all... I am not trying to convince anyone one way or the other to use the product. If you don't like it then don't use it. What I am trying to impress on everyone is that if you are going to comment on something please make sure you have done the research and are not just making "off the cuff" remarks about something. By all means ask questions as some have you have done... as a scientist I am trained to do that all the time (much to my wife's annoyance!!!). I am happy to answer anyone's concerns to the best of my knowledge and if I am not sure I will either say so or try and find out the CORRECT answer for you.

What I have presented to you is the facts as far as I am aware and my own personal experiences with the product. Take that information as you like.

Here are a couple of photos of the product that I have been using:

This is a close up of the product I have showing particle size.



This is an image taken of the product inside one of my dragon tanks.


----------



## andynic07 (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks Shane but I have a couple more questions. As read in the MSDS this product can cause irritation to eyes , noes and throat passages to humans after prolonged exposure. Do you think that this could possibly happen to reptiles as well and also is 3 weeks a long enough period for this to occur if it was going to? Have you noticed any of your animals ingest any of this substrate and what were the effects if any?


----------



## creaturesofhabit (Mar 12, 2014)

[MENTION=34534]andynic07[/MENTION] I had a bhp swallow a big mouth full of vermiculite when it left the egg. I didn't realize at the time, but when the rest of the clutch s yolk bulges disappeared and this one's didn't I took it to the vet. He squeezed out all the vermiculite and was very surprised.the little one was very thirsty when I got it home as the vermiculite was absorbing any water it drank


----------



## drsimpson (Mar 12, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> Thanks Shane but I have a couple more questions. As read in the MSDS this product can cause irritation to eyes , noes and throat passages to humans after prolonged exposure. Do you think that this could possibly happen to reptiles as well and also is 3 weeks a long enough period for this to occur if it was going to? Have you noticed any of your animals ingest any of this substrate and what were the effects if any?



In my experience with MSDS is that they detail EVERYTHING possible.... nothing wrong with that as that is what they should do! I would argue that just about anything that has the potential to cause irritation as described. The reports I have read on the health of vermiculite miners is that they should no ill effects.

Is 3 weeks long enough? Who knows... I have not found the product to be dusty at all so have not expected to see any issues. What will it be like in 3 months, 6 months etc time will tell. How much will it break down over time with dragons scrambling over it??? The beauty is that it is quite cheap and easily replaced if it gets that way.

As far as ingestion... I feed my dragons on a large flat plate in their enclosures. I have noticed a small amount of the material on the plate but have not noticed any physically ingesting it. I am sure at some point they have but I have not noticed any ill effects. I will be checking their faecal matter over the next week or so to see if it passes through though. Given that it does not swell when wet or clump together I would be pretty sure it will pass through with no problems but again time will tell. Yes it will absorb water on its way through but to how significant that will be I guess that will depend on how much is ingested, the size of the animal and the species.


----------



## zulu (Mar 14, 2014)

Ive been incubating reptile eggs in vermiculite for many years ,definetly irritates my skin and its dusty (type from bunnings ) .
Vermiculite does not have a particularly good look compared to desert sand or small pebbles and its messy ,i end up with little pieces on the floor around the incubator and have to scrape it off of the floor boards.


----------

