# Frillies dead at full term, any ideas???



## andyscott (Mar 16, 2010)

My 1st clutch of Frilled Neck eggs for the season was a bit over due,
I decided to pip an egg to see to see what was going on.
When I couldnt see movement, I decided to cut it right open to check it out.

The poor little hatchy was dead in the egg, I checked the rest, with the same result.
What I think went wrong, is that in the 1st 10 to 14 days of incubation the humidity was to low.
Causing the eggs to harden just that little too much for the bubs to break free themselves.
If you have a close look at pic 5, you can see that the egg tooth has been worn or broken off,
This is why I feel it may have been a humidity problem from the start.

If you have any other thoughts, Please share them.

As you can see in attached photos.
pic 1, The last of the yoke hardened in the egg.
pic 2, The left over yoke taken from the egg.
pic 3 & 4, The 1st deceased hatchy.
pic 5, Close up of the snout, either worn or broken off egg tooth.


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## geckos_are_great (Mar 16, 2010)

aww im sad now. did she lay another clutch ???


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## Pike01 (Mar 16, 2010)

Did the eggs ever soften?


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## shane14 (Mar 16, 2010)

i had 5 beardeds this season like that. Must be something about early incbation


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 16, 2010)

Did you have any heat spikes?
Does your thermometer record high and low temps?

Thanks Gex


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## andyscott (Mar 16, 2010)

Geckoman said:


> What was the incubation method? (Over water, vermiculite?)



I tried out the SIM tubs, so it was over water.
The eggs were incubated at 29.7 degrees, with a point 2 degree variable (29.5 to 29.9).




> geckos_are_great aww im sad now. did she lay another clutch ???



Yes she triple clutched this year, 2nd clutch only has 6 fertile eggs though.
The 3rd was all unfertile. so fingers crossed on the 6 from the 2nd (due in 3 to 5 days).


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 16, 2010)

andyscott said:


> I tried out the SIM tubs, so it was over water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So do you blame the tubs for the humidity problems?
(I edited my last post, sorry)

Thanks Gex


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## andyscott (Mar 16, 2010)

Geckoman said:


> So do you blame the tubs for the humidity problems?
> (I edited my last post, sorry)
> 
> Thanks Gex




The tubs didnt seem to hold humidity well at the start.
I have since modified them and played around with a few methods.
I will give them another chance next season.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 16, 2010)

It would be interesting to see how you answer that? As far as i know you have been the only one with an issue with the tubs. I asked you to post pictures of your set up in the other thread that you started about the issues you have been having with the tubs. You never did. Andy, did you take photos during the incubation process of the tubs? Did you measure the humidity in the tubs? Did you you use a hovabator or any similar incubator where the heating is from the top?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 16, 2010)

Just for the record, I am not attacking you in any way. Would just like to see how you used the tubs? I already posted photos of my tubs with hygrometers measuring between 96%-98% humidity inside the tubs.


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## andyscott (Mar 16, 2010)

Yes Nicole you have posted pictures.

You also posted a thread (with pictures) with all your eggs cut open a few days from full term.
You had cut 20 cent size holes in your eggs and the reason you gave for doing this, 
was that you lost a full clutch of Albinos the year before.

You stated that the hatchies died in the egg at full term, they were also unable the pip themselves.


Im in no way attacking you either.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 16, 2010)

Read the thread again. I have never used these tubs before this season. They were only released late last year. I will post some more photos of just how much condensation these tubs produce along with pictures of some other lizards hatching in them. You will notice how much moisture is in the tubs. I have had no dramas with these tubs retaining humidity. This leads me to believe that it's not the tub, but the setup that causes the fluctuation in the container.


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## andyscott (Mar 16, 2010)

It is also a fact that the manufacture of these tubs came on the site and STATED that the lids may need to be microwaved for a few seconds, so as to form a better seal.

This info was to late for my 1st clutch (already 40 odd days in) and I already noticed the problem.

Its my fault though, I put to much faith in the product.


Can you tell me with all honesty Nicole, that you have never microwaved a lid to get a better fit.
If you say no to that, after your supplier has stated that it may be needed to be done, well.............


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 16, 2010)




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## hoppyone (Mar 16, 2010)

Wow nice shot's nicole!!!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 16, 2010)

No I actually just run the lid under some hot water? The lid is pliable and moulds over the edge of the lid when warm. I had one customer inquire about a lid that did not fit properly. He put it in hot water and that solved the lid issue. These lids are made to be pliable so it has a better fit on the top of the tub. I hatched everything I had in these tubs. We even hatched eggs that might have been a little to big for them! I had water dripping on my eggs from the lid, and they still hatched. I am sorry your faith in the product is shattered! It helps to keep an open mind about it though. maybe its not the tubs.


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## Johnantny (Mar 16, 2010)

Please let me know what kind of incubator you are using. Top heated "chicken egg" incubators such as Little Giant, Hovabator are top heated and do not build up humidity in the SIM. Bottom heated and or air circulated incubators are what we see folks hatching eggs in. This may or may not be the case. I am sorry your eggs went as far as they did and did not pip. 

John


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks for the input John. I use side heated and fan forced incubators for incubation purposes. It seems then than it might be the incubator you used then. You mentioned to me that you were using a repta incubator that works in exactly the same way as a hovabator. An element above the tub might be causing the evaporation to form in the bottom of the tub, thus keeping the medium wet. Did you use any medium in the tub Andy or just water? I can't remember. Any ideas why this might be happening John?


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## shane14 (Mar 16, 2010)

i have a HovaBator and i got 22/27 this season. really actually 24/27 as 2 died out of the egg. ones i cut out.


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 16, 2010)

shane14 said:


> i have a HovaBator and i got 22/27 this season. really actually 24/27 as 2 died out of the egg. ones i cut out.


Was this using the SIM tubs?


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## GreggMadden (Mar 16, 2010)

So what we have found out thus far is that SIM containers in top heated bird incubators are not working well... The reason is the heating element needs to get much hotter than usual in order to un-naturally force the warm air down... Basically the heating element will have to be between 108 degrees f and 110 degrees f in order to heat the ambient air temp to 85 degrees f...

This uneven heating is causing the air in the chamber above the grid to be much hotter than the damp substrate... This keeps the humidity in the substrate and it does not release in the the chamber above...

We are working on a way to combat the situation because we want people to be able to use this product no matter what incubator they use... Even if they are using incubators designed to hatch bird eggs...

The fix is actually quite simple... You can fasten a thin damp sponge to the underside of the lid and this will inturn create the needed humidity in the egg chamber from the top...

Everyone needs to keep in mind here that the SIM is much different than traditional incubation methods...


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## shane14 (Mar 16, 2010)

Geckoman said:


> Was this using the SIM tubs?


 Sim tubs the ones that the Crickets come in? i used tubs of them and just washed them. Was my first season ever, so im chuffed that i got SOME success


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 16, 2010)

I thought you would have tried the tubs with an incubator as common as Hovabator
Its a bit of a shame for Andy to have to pay with his clutch to learn this technique


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## GeckoJosh (Mar 16, 2010)

shane14 said:


> Sim tubs the ones that the Crickets come in? i used tubs of them and just washed them. Was my first season ever, so im chuffed that i got SOME success


No SIM tubs are a product used to incubate eggs over water


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## Slats (Mar 17, 2010)

I feel for you Andy,
Best of luck next year.


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

GreggMadden said:


> The fix is actually quite simple... You can fasten a thin damp sponge to the underside of the lid and this will inturn create the needed humidity in the egg chamber from the top...
> 
> Everyone needs to keep in mind here that the SIM is much different than traditional incubation methods...



About time someone has the courage to admit that the tubs ''sometimes'' need to be tweaked in order to preform at there best.
Nicole could not possibly admit that. THANK YOU GREGG.

Yes Nicole all your photos are fantastic, The SIM tubs work well when you know the lids need to be tweaked a little.
If I was informed that there was a small issue up front.
I would have happily warmed the lids to make a better fit.

I understand you are standing by your product, but guess what, its not perfect.
As stated before, I have fixed the problem and will use them again.
Now that Ive learnt from my losses.

From now on any sales you should make in the future should come with something that states.
IN ORDER FOR THIS PRODUCT TO WORK AT ITS BEST, WARM THE LID (hot water or microwave) TO ENSURE A TIGHT FIT!!!

Most importantly, there would be a huge chance of 16 extra little Frillies running around this world, if I was told.

Have a nice day, I must go, I have 16 little holes to dig.
CHEERS ANDY...


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

One more thing, the tubs are made to be used with a water substrate.

Another small modification is the way the tubs are designed,
vermiculite is a lot better. It creates a lot more humidity.


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## itbites (Mar 17, 2010)

Geckoman said:


> I thought you would have tried the tubs with an incubator as common as Hovabator
> Its a bit of a shame for Andy to have to pay with his clutch to learn this technique



That is exactly right & well put!

In my opinion if you are going to mass produce & sell a product that has not been tested in every single way, 
it is bad practice to go ahead & sell them without ironing out ALL the kinks! 

Why should a paying customer have to find out the hard way that the product doesn't in fact cater
to ALL methods of incubation??

If a company manufacturing infant products were to do something similar to this, the ramifications would be dire!

Funny that I have incubated clutches myself using nothing more than an ice cream container 
& old snake enclosure & had 100% hatch rate.


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## GreggMadden (Mar 17, 2010)

andyscott said:


> About time someone has the courage to admit that the tubs ''sometimes'' need to be tweaked in order to preform at there best.
> Nicole could not possibly admit that. THANK YOU GREGG.


 
Hi Andy,
To be fair, Nicole was not aware of the issue with top heated incubators... We did not find this out until a couple of weeks ago ourselves... To be honest, not many people use hovabators or other top heated incubators to incubate reptile eggs anymore... There are many other, better options out there now... The modification I mentioned only needs to be done with top heated, thermo air flow incubators like Hovas... The reason why we are not keeping this quiet is because if it was swept under the rug, we could not come to a solution or a fix... Nicole, John, and myself want everyone to succeed with this product no matter what incubator you are using...

As far as the lid not fitting correctly, that was a factory error and not all the lids were affected... Only the ones affected needed to be heated to fit properly... Me and John spent many nights heating lids before we shipped them to our customers once we discoverd the issue...



andyscott said:


> I understand you are standing by your product, but guess what, its not perfect.
> As stated before, I have fixed the problem and will use them again.
> Now that Ive learnt from my losses.


The product does work perfectly when used correctly... Certainly every product has its quirks... Unfortunately, we were unaware of the issues until we got reports from a few customers...



andyscott said:


> From now on any sales you should make in the future should come with something that states.
> IN ORDER FOR THIS PRODUCT TO WORK AT ITS BEST, WARM THE LID (hot water or microwave) TO ENSURE A TIGHT FIT!!!


Since we found the problem we have told all of our customers what to do if the lid did not fit properly... Like I said we did not know about the issue intil recently... We also put a disclaimer on our site to inform people that there is currently an issue when using the SIM in a hovabator and that we are working to resolve the issue...



andyscott said:


> Most importantly, there would be a huge chance of 16 extra little Frillies running around this world, if I was told.
> 
> Have a nice day, I must go, I have 16 little holes to dig.
> CHEERS ANDY...


Andy, I feel bad about you loosing some hatchlings... It is not a fun thing to go through... Sorry for your loss Andy... I hope next season will be better and the product will not fail you or your hatchlings...

Feel free to contact me any time...


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## itbites (Mar 17, 2010)

GreggMadden said:


> Hi Andy,
> To be fair, Nicole was not aware of the issue with top heated incubators... We did not find this out until a couple of weeks ago ourselves... To be honest, not many people use hovabators or other top heated incubators to incubate reptile eggs anymore... There are many other, better options out there now... The modification I mentioned only needs to be done with top heated, thermo air flow incubators like Hovas... The reason why we are not keeping this quiet is because if it was swept under the rug, we could not come to a solution or a fix... Nicole, John, and myself want everyone to succeed with this product no matter what incubator you are using...
> 
> As far as the lid not fitting correctly, that was a factory error and not all the lids were affected... Only the ones affected needed to be heated to fit properly...
> ...



So you yourself are aware that there are issues with some of the tubs you sold being faulty...
Did those customers who lost clutches get reimbursed for their losses?

It does not matter what incubator is being used as the product did not state that it's not as effective with top heated incubators...

Mean while an otherwise perfectly healthy clutch has bit the dust for no good reason. :|


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## GreggMadden (Mar 17, 2010)

itbites said:


> So you yourself are aware that there are issues with some of the tubs you sold being faulty...
> Did those customers who lost clutches get reimbursed for their losses?


 
Like I said, we just found this out recently and we contacted all customers we could and told them... However, we also state that if the conditions are not proper in the container, DO NOT put eggs in... You need to see condensation an inch past the grid line before you add eggs... If you do not see that, the conditions are not proper... Guess what... If the lid is not fitting correctly or if you are using a top heated incubator, the condensation will not build up...

So what kind of reimbursment are you talking about???
How do we cover the loss and who can even tell if the container was the issue??? There are MANY things that can cause an embryo to die during incubation... So no, customers who lost eggs did not get reimbursed for lost eggs... Like I said, above it is known that if the condition are not right, eggs should not be placed in the container until the conditions are right...

It would be irrational to even consider something like that... We are offering and incubation tool... Like any tool, if not used properly, it will not function correctly...


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

> Andy, I feel bad about you loosing some hatchlings... It is not a fun thing to go through... Sorry for your loss Andy... I hope next season will be better and the product will not fail you or your hatchlings...
> 
> Feel free to contact me any time...





Hi Gregg,

I was not using a Hovabator.
I was using fan forced incubators, specifically designed for reptile use.
I had the clutch in 2 separate tubs, both tubs failed me.

Also, the whole clutch was spoken for, most of which are people that have been looking for a Frilled Neck Lizard for quite some time.
I even had a Reptile Park in Townsville extremely desperate for Frillies, that they were going to straight swap me 2 Frilled Necks for 2 hatchling Crocs.


In closing my girlfriend Kristy aka itbites would like to speak to you,
so she will be contacting you soon.

Cheers again Andy.

So im by far no the only one disappointed by this outcome.


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## Jarden (Mar 17, 2010)

Sorry to hear bout your loss andy. Thouse frillies are quite sort after ! Would love to get one off you in the seasons to come


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## Ramsayi (Mar 17, 2010)

Bummer about the clutch,these things sometimes happen and as long as you learn from it then it wasn't a total waste.

I think blaming a tub is a bit over the top,after all they are only plastic containers, albeit expensive ones,unless of course you were led to believe that they had super incubating powers.Tubs do not even need to be airtight to do a good job getting eggs all the way through incubation,even cheap $2 ones will produce decent results.

To me it's the method used ie:no substrate or not allowing eggs to be in contact with the substrate.Using vermiculite or perlite in contact with the eggs allows the eggs to draw water into them if needed.Also using a medium creates more humidity because of a larger surface area.Provided the medium isn't over wet then any type of reptile egg can be hatched successfully.


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## itbites (Mar 17, 2010)

GreggMadden said:


> Like I said, we just found this out recently and we contacted all customers we could and told them... However, we also state that if the conditions are not proper in the container, DO NOT put eggs in... You need to see condensation an inch past the grid line before you add eggs... If you do not see that, the conditions are not proper... Guess what... If the lid is not fitting correctly or if you are using a top heated incubator, the condensation will not build up...
> 
> So what kind of reimbursment are you talking about???
> How do we cover the loss and who can even tell if the container was the issue??? There are MANY things that can cause an embryo to die during incubation... So no, customers who lost eggs did not get reimbursed for lost eggs... Like I said, above it is known that if the condition are not right, eggs should not be placed in the container until the conditions are right...
> ...





So in one sentence you say there were some faulty SIM tubs that were sold.. then in the next you blame the buyer for incorrect use...So which is it? 

Also before this thread tonight I would like to see where you have previously stated the issues with the tubs etc...You said you weren't sweeping anything under the rug well if this thread was not created would you have come forward anyways??

We were not notified of any problems like you said you did with other buyers & yet Nicole knew we were having issues very early on

The frill neck embryo's were developing quite well & were fully formed as the pictures indicate...

What will be interesting is if after realizing the tubs are in fact faulty & rectifying "tweaking them"
Whether this second clutch will hatch successfully...I dare say IF they do that just concretes the fact that the tubs are at fault & perhaps a recall of sorts is in order until you can rectify the issues.

I'm not about to continue this conversation on the forum, I will take it up with you personally tomorrow..


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## Johnantny (Mar 17, 2010)

Andy,

Your frills went full term and failed to pip. This is unusual, and a first time I have heard this happening with the SIM. This is hard to prove that the SIM is at fault. Many underlying factors could have taken place so speculating will not help the situation. A lack of egg tooth is not uncommon, and often traps full term babies in egg. Yes, its uncommon but documented. The lid issue may not be the reason either. Your babies went full term or close to it. Lid problems that caused eggs to collapse very early on, within first week or so of laying, not as close to hatch as your photos show. 

I have ordered new lids for Nicole. I am paying for the replacement lids, shipping to Australia and shipping to Nicole's customers.

Not to repeat this but incubators truly matter when doing "zero substrate" or SIM incubation. Bottom heated and or air circulated incubators create the humidity build so condensation occurs on the side walls. Failure to achieve this can lead to egg collapse and egg death. 

I hope this event hasn't deterred you from using the SIM again, and I wish you success in hatching those Frillies. I'll let Nicole know when the lids will arrive.

Best regards

John


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## Splitmore (Mar 17, 2010)

andyscott said:


> Also, the whole clutch was spoken for, most of which are people that have been looking for a Frilled Neck Lizard for quite some time.
> I even had a Reptile Park in Townsville extremely desperate for Frillies, that they were going to straight swap me 2 Frilled Necks for 2 hatchling Crocs.
> 
> 
> .



One thing you can never do is count your 'chickens' before they hatch!! No offence but that shows your inexperience right there. I too have had many frilly eggs go full term to only have one or two hatch. They are not the easiest lizard to breed or incubate, many people keep them yet you see very few advertised for sale.
I'm of the firm belief good eggs will hatch in just about anything, imagine what they go through in nature. They hardly get 100% perfect conditions.
I understand your disappointment but to put the blame soley on the incubation container is a bit harsh. Maybe next season split the clutches and do half the traditional way and half in these tubs and see, or try it with something else. 
In saying that I'm quite happy with my $2 tubs with a handful of damp vermiculite thrown in the bottom but a mate of mine hatched 2 clutches of greens this year using these fancy tubs with fantastic results.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 17, 2010)

The fact is that unfortunately somebody always has to be blamed when things happen, if a hatchlings dies before it's born then it must be he container, it can not be the incubator. If a hatchling dies in the care of it's new owner then it's somehing the breeder did wrong. An so the blame game goes on. It suddenly makes sense that itbites is upset! You and Andy were expecting your babies that you have already sold before they were born? I have no reason to lie. Out of 200 tubs that were sold in that batch of yours Andy, you and one more person had an issue. One had an issue with the lid and the other was yourself. You also posted a thread where I asked you to measure them humidity and post pics o the setup? You never did. You did not even use a hygrometer? So the fact that you think the tubs you have don't make humidity is based on assumption?

The American market is huge in comparison to the Australian market. They only found out a few weeks ago and they have moved thousands o these tubs in the states. The sample size was bigger for them so the issues surfaced sooner. I have not sold nearly as many! Most of my customers have been happy and I have even had repeat orders.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 17, 2010)

I get upset when things like this because it could have been avoided. All you had to do when you suspected there was an issue with humidity was to send me an email to ask for advice. It is standard practise for for suppliers to try and sort out issues. If you buy something faulty from Harvey Norman; do you take it back to the supplier or post a thread on a forum? Hygrometers are inexpensive and for a clutch that has $250 or $300 marked per head, I would have gladly paid for an instrument that would have given me the peace of mind about the humidity.


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## JasonL (Mar 17, 2010)

This happens all the time with Friled Dragon eggs, and personally I don't think it has anything to do with incubation, but more so how healthy (ie the calcium level) level of the female who laid them and what temps she was kept at during and before she was gravid. Just because she looks healthy and eats OK doese not necessarily mean her calcium levels are great, and she will pass them onto the eggs, the same thing happens with Oedura geckos, esp when over or under heated.


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## GreggMadden (Mar 17, 2010)

The thing that is not sitting well with me, and I have no idea how I missed it, is the fact that the dead in egg neonates had no egg teeth...
I would assume that the issue was with either the genetics of the parents or malnutrition... That defect is not cause by incubation... Well not the humidity factor anyway... Also the fact that they were fully formed suggests that the incubation was proper... They were obviously not deprived of fluid if they went that long...

Again Andy, I am very sorry you lost your clutch... It is a crappy thing to go through that all of us breeders go through... However, I do not think your incubation or the SIM container is the factor for your eggs not hatching... If you look at the facts you have infront of you, it is clearly pointing to the situation I pointed out above... While it may be fustrating, pointing the finger at the product is counter productive... You should look into why egg teeth fail to develop and go from there to fix the issue...


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## miss2 (Mar 17, 2010)

everything else aside i just wanted to say andy, so sorry for your loss, it must have been devostating. and nicole, serious amazing pictures, well done on the snaps.
that is all


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## JasonL (Mar 17, 2010)

GreggMadden said:


> The thing that is not sitting well with me, and I have no idea how I missed it, is the fact that the dead in egg neonates had no egg teeth...
> I would assume that the issue was with either the genetics of the parents or malnutrition... That defect is not cause by incubation... Well not the humidity factor anyway... Also the fact that they were fully formed suggests that the incubation was proper... They were obviously not deprived of fluid if they went that long...
> 
> Again Andy, I am very sorry you lost your clutch... It is a crappy thing to go through that all of us breeders go through... However, I do not think your incubation or the SIM container is the factor for your eggs not hatching... If you look at the facts you have infront of you, it is clearly pointing to the situation I pointed out above... While it may be fustrating, pointing the finger at the product is counter productive... You should look into why egg teeth fail to develop and go from there to fix the issue...



Teeth / bone development is part of the calcium issues I pointed to, in mild cases the lizard dies and from all accounts looks perfect, though will usually have no or a soft egg tooth, medium cases the lizard will be very soft, soft skull, rubbery jaw, and in extreme cases the lizard will fail to form past an embryo..
Snakes have the same heating issues, though they usually suffer from poorly developed and kinked spines, deformed heads ect..
Most keepers think "incubation problem" when their eggs don't hatch, yet fail to think further back to the animal(s) that created the eggs in the first place.... a vital mistake as a keeper imo.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 17, 2010)

Itbites: you mentioned that manufacturers are expected to test their product extensively? How do you propose they do it in this hobby? People use old fridges to turn into incubators! Even we use commercial fridges to incubate our eggs in. A photo of your incubation setups along with incubator might shed some light on the situation?


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## Mrs I (Mar 17, 2010)

JasonL makes some very good points !!


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## richardsc (Mar 17, 2010)

i think this shows the importance of no matter what method u use to incubate, things can go wrong 

weather you use fancy top of the line incubators and methods or even incubate in little cricket tubs with vermiculite in a snake cage,its always good to keep an eye on eggs,to correct the conditions they are in if need be

eggs are pretty hardy if in good health and kept with in certain conditions,some clutches may not be though for any number of reason.

i dont think its entirely fair to take this out on the tubs,its to easy to put the blame elsewhere


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## Colin (Mar 17, 2010)

JasonL said:


> This happens all the time with Friled Dragon eggs, and personally I don't think it has anything to do with incubation, but more so how healthy (ie the calcium level) level of the female who laid them and what temps she was kept at during and before she was gravid. Just because she looks healthy and eats OK doese not necessarily mean her calcium levels are great, and she will pass them onto the eggs, the same thing happens with Oedura geckos, esp when over or under heated.



do you think they would benefit from a supplementary small amount of liquid calcium sandoz before the breeding season Jason? I used to use this many years ago with pythons and know some well known breeders use it for their female breeding pythons both before the breeding season and after (to replenish lost calcium during egg laying) 

and what temps would you recommend for the frillies?



andyscott said:


> Yes she triple clutched this year, 2nd clutch only has 6 fertile eggs though. The 3rd was all unfertile. so fingers crossed on the 6 from the 2nd (due in 3 to 5 days).



sorry for your loss andy and kristy. when I read Jason's post I went back to your earlier post and just thought maybe triple clutching and the calcium levels that Jason is talking about may have more to do with the situation than first thought? I have no experience with frillies so really dont have anything to offer personally but am just trying to piece information together to maybe help and find a solution. take care guys.


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## Bryce (Mar 17, 2010)

Your case is a hard one, there are alot of diffrenet factors that could have caused the deaths (Incubator,tubs, parents, temps, humidity) JasonL does make some very good points about the health of the parents.

But as for the supplier, i think that any supplier should have a clear set of instructions or guidlines on how to use there product and how not to use the product, if you know that your product needs some tweaking or adjusting of the lid it should be written down on paper and supplied to the end user.

Do you say to use water as the prefeered incubation choice or vermiculite or do you leave it up to the individual? I have noticed all your tubs have vermiculite! I'm in no way having a go at you.

You must supply this info that way when circumstances like this happen you are covered as all proper instructions where given then you cant be held liable in this unfortunate event.

Sorry for th e loss.


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## richardsc (Mar 17, 2010)

yes excellent point to jasonL


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## JasonL (Mar 17, 2010)

Colin said:


> do you think they would benefit from a supplementary small amount of liquid calcium sandoz before the breeding season Jason? I used to use this many years ago with pythons and know some well known breeders use it for their female breeding pythons both before the breeding season and after (to replenish lost calcium during egg laying)
> 
> and what temps would you recommend for the frillies?



Yes, possibly... it depends on the paricular animal and how it is being fed and heated really. I certainly think a good dose of calcium before egg development can't hurt anyway.
The issues here are quite complex though, and just because you dust their food once a week or give them a dose of liquid calcium before the breeding season does not mean at all that calcium problems won't occur..
Also, it is quite amazing how different species use their bodies to make eggs, even similar species have a vastly different hatch rate.. for example, Oedura tryoni and Oedura castelnaui, tryoni take longer and create much larger healthier eggs with bigger hatchlings than castelnaui, castelnaui when over heated create heaps more eggs, yet none of them hatch, yet tryoni when over heated are much more resilient to faster egg development and still maintain a better hatch rate than their northern castelnaui cousins...
In general I have observed that tropical species are knocked around by calcium / heating issues much more than temperate climate animals, that have evolved to handle a broader range of temeratures. Getting the correct artificial heating requirements for tropical species may initially seem easier than it actually is, especially if you don't live in the tropics....
Though it is vital to get your food intake / heating correct..... I generally opt for the blast and freeze method for desert / and non rainforest tropical species, heaps of heat during the day, then down to 16-18 at night (unheated in Sydney) though if night heating is used it is best as only a general ambient and observations should be made that the reptile isn't using it to heat itself as such.


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## Colin (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks for that Jason. great advice as always


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 17, 2010)

These tubs are so simple to use, its not rocket science. I tried various mediums last season. I used very wet vermiculite, very dry vermiculite, lots of water, little bit of water etc. I hatched whatever I had in the on whatever medium I was using. Fortunately I was using these tubs before anybody else was using them. I did not use any other container this year. I sacrificed hundreds of eggs to test these out and from record lost only a couple of eggs. I thought this would be enough testing. I can guarantee you there was nobody else in the world that took such a gamble. I opened one of the first tubs I got and saw the lid was a little warped. I checked every tub I sent out from then. Andy ordered 10 so this tub must have sneaked through. To have a set of guidelines mean that every possible variable has to be taken into consideration. This is not possible when every breeder has his own way of doing things!


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## Bryce (Mar 17, 2010)

Guidlines are simple to come up with, if you know what doesnt work put that on paper and supply it with the units. Very simple.


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## GreggMadden (Mar 17, 2010)

Just to recap here... The lid issue was a facory error... We are replacing the lids that were defective... It is not a design flaw that needs tweaking... Again, we just found this issue out recently and it was only about 1 in 5 lids that had this issue...

As far as the container not working right in Hovabator or top heated incubators goes, we never tested them in these units because, #1, we do not use them and no breeder we know uses them and #2, quite frankly, they are not proper reptile incubators and we do not promote using bird incubators to hatch reptile eggs.... A very small % of people use these top heated incubators... However, for the people who already bought a SIM and are using that style incubator we are beta testing a fix... After beta testing and all is well we will be replacing the current lid with the modified lid so they can be used in the Hovabators... That is something we do not even have to do... We want to do it for our customers... Again, we want everyone to be successful with this product...


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## FAY (Mar 17, 2010)

For what it is worth...I hatched childreni eggs...some died in the egg.
I used the SIM tubs.......same tub...washed out...hatched 100% hatch rate...22eggs..22 lovely healthy beardies.
I doubt it had anything to do with the tubs.


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## itbites (Mar 17, 2010)

Not meaning to sound sarcastic here but anyone who doesn't know that reptiles (lizards in particular)

need calcium is pretty silly! I can say from personal knowledge that the parents in particular the mother

was definitely not lacking in calcium & every measure was taken before breeding even began. 

Also we shall see what happens with this second clutch whether or not they hatch..

After realizing the lack of humidity in the first clutch (although too late) whether this improves the chances 

of them hatching successfully?!.

Perhaps FAY you may have been one of the lucky ones who did not receive a faulty lid??

Gregg *a chicken incubator was not used for these eggs this has already been mentioned*!

As for "solely blaming the tubs"that is not the case & it is just a suggestion due to the HUMIDITY issues we encountered.

And Nicole Andrew DID speak with you very early on about this problem with the product & no advice was given!

Further more although the eggs were "spoken" for we in no way believed 100% that they were "already sold"

Names were put down yes but no deposits were taken & no guarantees were given out 

of course that would be naive to assume once the mother lays thats it instant hatchlings! 

I've not once said the SIM tubs are at fault 100% here we are merely speculating, 

in fact I believe the distributor was the one who mentioned faults?...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 17, 2010)

Greg and John will organise something with you guys. I will look through our correspondence with each other and see what was discussed.


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## geckodan (Mar 17, 2010)

JasonL has raised some very good points. Humidity issues in early incubation will not cause late failures. If the damage to the embryo in early incubation is significant, it will fail to grow i.e. you don't get to the late stage issue as the embryo dies. Late failures are most commonly associated with temperature spikes (either high or low), weak hatchlings or excessively high humidity at hatching. These can happen in any incubation method. I have discussed this with a number of breeders and overall we are seeing a higher rate of late dead in shell lizards this year than in previous years. Why ?? Buggered if we can pinpoint a particular thing.


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## Chris1 (Mar 17, 2010)

really sorry to hear u lost all those eggs/babies, thats such a shame. 

just wondering if its possible to pip the ones that are due to hatch now like that albino carpet thread to ensure it doesnt happen to the remaining 6?

(not getting involvied in the incubation debate since i have absolutely no idea about it)

good luck with the remaining eggs.


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

Splitmore said:


> One thing you can never do is count your 'chickens' before they hatch!! No offence but that shows your inexperience right there.



Its not a fact of inexperience, I am bursting at the seems here, I have no room to keep animals that cant be moved on to new homes.
How many breeders are freezing animals that cant be sold as the market is flooded?
Thats why I have a list, because if I cant place animals, then I wont create animals.




> CarpetPythons.com.au. Andy ordered 10 so this tub must have sneaked through.



All 10 of the tubs I got from you had ill fitting lids, they all needed to be tweaked. They have all been tested now after adjusting the lids and I cant see a problem with them.(they now even get humidity in them, just left on the kitchen bench).
As I said, I will use them again.

My issue is that you were told at the start and wanted to blame everything else but the tubs.
Yet you now admit that there was an issue from the start.
If your CUSTOMER service was correct from, there would be no problem.
All you needed to say was the lids are soft plastic, they may need to be warmed to stretch over the hard plastic tub, left to cool so as to form a better seal.

You were way to busy defending the tubs to listen to your customer.
Even when I posted this thread (read my 1st post), I asked for opinions.
I never went on a witch hunt.
You were the one that got defensive, it wasnt until Gregg (your supplier) came on and said that yes there is a small issue, did you change your tune.

You have contradicted yourself a few times on this thread alone, not to mention the chats we have had in the past.
Once again, I do not wish to condemn the product, I hope you sell many more, just let future users know that it takes 10 seconds in the microwave to adjust the lid before use.


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

Chris1 said:


> really sorry to hear u lost all those eggs/babies, thats such a shame.
> 
> just wondering if its possible to pip the ones that are due to hatch now like that albino carpet thread to ensure it doesnt happen to the remaining 6?
> 
> ...




Hi Chris, I dont feel there is a need to pip the 2nd clutch, as those eggs have had plenty of humidity from the start.

Also to all those that left comments without out getting into the debate, thank you for you wishes.


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## GreggMadden (Mar 17, 2010)

At this time it is pointless to fight and point fingers... The issue got taken care of... Sure a clutch was lost but Andy, I am sure after reading the other replies you realize it most likely was not a container issue that cause your frills to die in the egg... I know you were upset about it and I would be as well, but there are many other variables that could have come into play here...

I know going forward, you are going to love the SIM container... It really is a great product and it make hatching eggs effortless... Even notoriously hard to hatch eggs have hatched in this container...

Do not loose faith in the product Andy... It will do good for you...


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## wranga (Mar 17, 2010)

sorry for your loss andy
without taking sides and joining whos at fault. let this be a lesson to all to check all of your equipment (yes test run) before starting to incubate eggs. its alot easier to correct faults with temperature or humidity before eggs are added and spoiled


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## Owzi (Mar 17, 2010)

Andy, using the no substrate meathod???

A couple of years ago you told me "you can't use the no substrate meathod in Melbourne, it's not humid enough in Victoria". ?????? I hatched BHP's & Spotteds later that year using that method, 100% success. Just because you have a large collection doesn't make you or anyone else an expert. We will all continue to learn from our herps for as long as we keep them. 

Surely you can't blame a container for the eggs not hatching? Wouldn't you have had your incubator set up weeks in advance running tests on temp and humidity? If there was a problem you should have picked it up then?

It is a bummer you lost these hatchies, but its a learning experiance. If I were you I would learn that pipping the eggs may help, it certainly won't hurt?

Andrew


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## Kristy_07 (Mar 17, 2010)

Sorry for you loss, Andy. I would have been devastated, too. 

I don't have the experience to add anything else that hasn't already been mentioned to the debate on what went wrong with the clutch. However, after reading this thread, I couldn't say I would be comfortable purchasing and using these particular tubs. Not so much because they sound unreliable or faulty, but more because of the way the problem was dealt with by the suppliers and distributors. Such an in-depth, and, at times, personal, discussion over problems with a product on a public forum is, in my opinion, totally unprofessional.

Once again, my apologies, Andy, that you lost your clutch. But thank you for posting this thread, as I, at least, have gained valuable information from it. I'll be sticking to ice cream buckets for my future breeding purposes.


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## Owzi (Mar 17, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Sorry for you loss, Andy. I would have been devastated, too.
> 
> I don't have the experience to add anything else that hasn't already been mentioned to the debate on what went wrong with the clutch. However, after reading this thread, I couldn't say I would be comfortable purchasing and using these particular tubs. Not so much because they sound unreliable or faulty, but more because of the way the problem was dealt with by the suppliers and distributors. Such an in-depth, and, at times, personal, discussion over problems with a product on a public forum is, in my opinion, totally unprofessional.
> 
> Once again, my apologies, Andy, that you lost your clutch. But thank you for posting this thread, as I, at least, have gained valuable information from it. I'll be sticking to ice cream buckets for my future breeding purposes.



Wasn't it Andy that brought it to the public forum?


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## cmclean (Mar 17, 2010)

Andy,
Everybody has had eggs die at full term, you can learn by your mistakes.
Get over it you big girl.


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## Kristy_07 (Mar 17, 2010)

You're right, Owzi. But Andy started the thread asking for advice, not condemning the tubs. Even when asked specifically whether she blamed the tubs, she answered diplomatically. It wasn't until I read carpetpythons.com first two comments, which were fairly direct to say the least, that my interest was peaked, and I decided to follow the thread.


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## bkevo (Mar 17, 2010)

andy, sorry for the loss..
unfortunatly. if all that can be taken from your unpleasent experience, i and others can learn from your loss.
as andy has stated he will give them a go this season. with the problem being resolved, hopfully it will prove successful. best of luck mate


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

Owzi said:


> Surely you can't blame a container for the eggs not hatching? Wouldn't you have had your incubator set up weeks in advance running tests on temp and humidity? If there was a problem you should have picked it up then?
> 
> It is a bummer you lost these hatchies, but its a learning experiance. If I were you I would learn that pipping the eggs may help, it certainly won't hurt?
> 
> Andrew




Yes Owzi,
I had everything set up ready to go a few weeks in advance.
Then I received the SIM tubs a couple of days before she layed, so I used them instead.

IF EVERYONE READS THE 1ST POST, I NEVER BLAMED THE TUBS,
The Australian supplier of the tubs jumped up in defence before anything bad was said on my behalf.
Why because she knew there was a small problem with some of the stock, she knew it was an easy fix and yet swept it under the carpet.
I say she knew, because she was informed by myself when I discovered the problem.

STUPIDLY I THOUGHT CUSTOMER FEEDBACK WOULD HELP HER WITH FUTURE CUSTOMER SERVICE AND SALES, I WAS WRONG, SHE BLAMED EVERYTHING ELSE BUT THE TUBS.
Gregg, I informed Nicole that there was a humidity problem in early December last year, did she let you know or sweep it under the carpet?


I have talked to 2 others that dont wish to be named on this thread, but they have also experience humidity problems.
Also if you check back over another thread about the tubs, you will find another that was having trouble.

I am in no way trying to loss sales for Gregg and Nicole, Im informing people that, If they choose to buy the item, make sure you refit the lid.
Even if it fits well, heat it up and refit it again!


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

cmclean said:


> Andy,
> Everybody has had eggs die at full term, you can learn by your mistakes.
> Get over it you big girl.



LMFAO, BIG GIRL!!!!

That was a pathetic and childish comment on your behalf Cathy.
Comming from the wife of one of the most respected BHP breeders in Australia.

Please read everything I have stated, not just what you want to see.
Be constructive not childish.


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## JasonL (Mar 17, 2010)

itbites said:


> Not meaning to sound sarcastic here but anyone who doesn't know that reptiles (lizards in particular)
> need calcium is pretty silly! I can say from personal knowledge that the parents in particular the mother
> was definitely not lacking in calcium & every measure was taken before breeding even began.
> Also we shall see what happens with this second clutch whether or not they hatch..



Without extensive blood tests and xrays before and during the gravid period you cannot say for sure if it's blood calcium levels were good.... but as you have a second clutch you have another chance to help with some clues, if they all hatch fine it was most likely a incubation issue, I'm guessing they will all be DIE (dead in egg) as thats what usually happens with nutrient deprived Frillies... hope it works out OK for you though, best of luck.


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## Stevo2 (Mar 17, 2010)

I would have thought, in my naivety, that if a female could produce enough calcium for 3 clutches of eggs then her calcium levels were fine??? Is this not the case?


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## dtulip10 (Mar 17, 2010)

ok so i just read the whole thread and now i am up to speed.

andy and kirsty sorry for your loss.
i feel it is not a incubation problem but like jason has said a lack of calcium. what was the mothers diet over the last 12 months.

with the SIM tubs, i have never used them, i was going to give them a go this year with some beardies and carpets and see how they go.

cheers Dayle


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## JasonL (Mar 17, 2010)

Stevo2 said:


> I would have thought, in my naivety, that if a female could produce enough calcium for 3 clutches of eggs then her calcium levels were fine??? Is this not the case?



No not at all, captive females have little choice when placed in a enclosed space with a male, esp with frillies as males have been known to kill non responsive females out of shear persistance ( I can unfortunately personally attest to that) as they have large fangs that are good for grasping, tearing, ripping the necks of females open..
anyway... most reptiles will copulate and produce eggs even in a sub average state. Some reptiles (like Bearded Dragons) put everything into their eggs and have a really high hatch rate, even when the female is near death and the egg shell is half clear with "windows" (they are clear spots caused by mineral deficiencies) and the hatchies come out fine, other reptiles keep themselves healthy and lay eggs that will never hatch. Calcium and heating issues are very complex, and there are many unknown areas and grey areas, and every situation can be different. If you breed hundreds of lizards and snakes of 30 - 50 species you will start to work out various patterns, these patterns can be highly variable depending on numerous reasons, though imo mainly come down to a heating / feeding balance. Not only does it effect egg laying reptiles either, live bearers also have problems, skinks are often born with a 90 deg right angle kink in their tails, or still birthed. Though there are many reasons for various birth / hatch failures in herpetoculture, I put heating down as the main one.


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## andyscott (Mar 17, 2010)

Ok, Stevo2 and dtulip 10 and Jas.

The female is in great condition, I could have bred with her in 2008 but chose to wait another year.

Her diet is calcium dusted woodies or crickets every 2nd day.
She also gets 2 pinky mice a week, as well as banana, apple, flowers ect.

Her health and diet is spot on.


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## Stevo2 (Mar 17, 2010)

That's what I would have thought Andy 

Wish I could get mine to eat non-living things..... You're doing great!


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## JasonL (Mar 17, 2010)

andyscott said:


> Ok, Stevo2 and dtulip 10 and Jas.
> 
> The female is in great condition, I could have bred with her in 2008 but chose to wait another year.
> 
> ...



As I said, diet and looks have nothing to do with it at all. It is extremely common for frillies to do this and I highly doubt it has anything to do with incubation at all, Good eggs hatch in almost any conditions and bad eggs will not hatch under any conditions....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 17, 2010)

This is how my dealings have gone down with Gregg and John in America. Even before you lot knew about these tubs I had 20 sent to me at a phenomenal amount of money. I ordered them in for my own animals as I did not want to risk others hatchlings with a product that has not been tested. I hatched close to 200 pythons in these tubs. Most of them were high end snakes and I also hatched a few clutches of bearded dragon eggs. Now I have posted pictures of these tubs in action in my incubators. I then decided to sign up for the rights of distribution in australia. The boys can vouch for that. 

Andy ordered ten, they were sent of after payment was received. Then I heard nothing again until a few months ago when he did posted a thread on this forum about the product and these lizard eggs not doing well. I added to the thread and ended off by asking him to show me his setup along with readings from his hygrometer. He never bothered responding and if any of you would like to do a search I am sure you will find it. 

Another buyer followed the correct protocol and contacted me directly to ask about his lid and I mentioned to him to run it under hot water for a little while to sort out the problem. He contacted me back and said it fits like a glove after that. These lids are not supposed to fit like a Tupperware lid and I never had issues with the first bunch I got. They are not like any tub out there and customers that have them can attest to that.

I might be wrong when I say that if you have issues with something you buy then your first point of contact is the supplier. You don't post it on a forum! Where you can post something under the guise of innosence when your full intentions was to hurt the reputation of the seller and the product. I will defend this product as I have had absolutely no issues with it. If there are others that had issues then why don't they raise their voice and not hide behind you. Nothing was swept under the carpet as I in all honestly have only had one complaint. I dealt with it promptly and sorted it out like any supplier would if you follow the right channel. It was very unprofessional of you from the start to have posted 2 threads on a forum without bothering to contact us first. Any supplier would get upset if this is the manner you conduct your affairs in. You have cost me buyers by doing this even if you had the best intentions at heart. Customer feedback is not done on a public forum.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Mar 17, 2010)

Just read through the whole thread again. A repta-incubator from Reptapets is a hovabator. You have in fact used a chicken egg incubator. Why don't you touch or try and touch the heating element while it is heating. I bet you that you will burn your hand. I used some of those incubators on beardie eggs and have stopped because of the temperature spikes that happen in them, especially in Melbourne.


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## dtulip10 (Mar 17, 2010)

andyscott said:


> Ok, Stevo2 and dtulip 10 and Jas.
> 
> The female is in great condition, I could have bred with her in 2008 but chose to wait another year.
> 
> ...



like jason has said she may look spot on but may be lacking in one area, reptiles do not show when they are lacking in a particular area. and if the egg tooth is missing it does sound like a calcium deficency, what type of UV lights do you run with the mum?


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## soundfix (Mar 17, 2010)

*Camera*



hoppyone said:


> Wow nice shot's nicole!!!


 Dido, what camera do you use.Anything special, /They really are terrific shots.Thanks


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## Shannon (Mar 17, 2010)

I just thought I'd add that I've had great experiences with the SIMS.

Andy, I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I initially struggled to understand why a slightly imperfect lid fit would account for such changes in humidity until I read your incubator is top heated, which makes some more sense.

All of my lids fit without issue but sometimes I actually purposely sat my lids at an angle to allow some airflow and avoid so much condensation from the consistent 99% humidity I was getting. This is because I use bottom heating, quite simply I have a large Styrofoam box with a heat cord sitting on the bottom with the SIMS sitting on it so the water itself is heated. I have thermometers and a hygrometer cords in the SIM container and when I do have the lid sealed (especially toward hatching time) I just push it down over the cords as much as possible with no loss of humidity. I routinely take the lid off and shake off any condensation to allow for a clear view and avoid any dripping.

I've successfully hatched Central Netted Dragons and now Ridge-tail Monitors.


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## No-two (Mar 17, 2010)

JasonL said:


> As I said, diet and looks have nothing to do with it at all. It is extremely common for frillies to do this and I highly doubt it has anything to do with incubation at all, Good eggs hatch in almost any conditions and bad eggs will not hatch under any conditions....


 
Ditto. I've seen eggs in the worst conditions covered in mould and black stuff still hatch perfectly fine. I've hatch eggs in tubs that had very very minimal to no condensation on the sides aswell, if thats how you're judging humidity Andy. 

I'm going to have to go with most others on this one aswell, I highly doubt a early problem would effect the eggs late into incubation, if they were truely lacking in humidity the eggs would have de-hydrated early on and you'd have noticed a problem then.

But the top heating incubator thing seems like a load of bull to me, I used to use a top heated incubator and never had any problems (obviously not with sim tubs but there was no noticable differance between the type of incubators using the same methods so why would it matter with one type of tub?) at the end of the day the heat is still all around so it shouldn't matter.


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## Colin (Mar 17, 2010)

this has been an interesting thread and a lot of ideas put forward.. I really think its best to close it for the moment. If this decision is premature I apologise to all parties concerned but feel its for the best at this time. If anyone objects to this decision I suggest you pm another moderator and if they feel it should be re-opened I have no objections to them re-opening it.. cheers


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