# Wild Monitor



## fredsnugget (Sep 25, 2011)

They may not be mine but gotta love being able to go to the national park and have reptiles that comfortable with people. They made my day


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## Tassie97 (Sep 25, 2011)

awesome! its a lace monitor if you didnt know


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## sookie (Sep 25, 2011)

That is fully sic.would make my day too


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## fredsnugget (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes I did know it was a lace, took a bit of patience to get him that close but was worth it. There were 2 but only one curious enough to come that close


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## Fuscus (Sep 25, 2011)

Last time I fed a wild lacie ( a "semi-bells" pictured below) it decided I didn't feed it enough and went for my bare feet. To cut a long story short I ended up pinning it down with a tripod while putting my boots on, after which it hung around camp and scared off other campers


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## fredsnugget (Sep 25, 2011)

That thought did cross my mind when it was sniffing round, luckily the ham was obviously tastier than my toes


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## Cockney_Red (Sep 25, 2011)

You mess with a hungry Lacie, and you got a Dreamworld Lacie!


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## JAS101 (Sep 25, 2011)

fredsnugget said:


> They may not be mine but gotta love being able to go to the national park and have reptiles that comfortable with people. They made my day
> View attachment 219246
> View attachment 219245


 thats not such a good thing , thats an accident just waiting to happen .


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## Dukz13 (Sep 25, 2011)

JAS101 said:


> thats not such a good thing , thats an accident just waiting to happen .



you only live once..


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## JAS101 (Sep 25, 2011)

Dukz13 said:


> you only live once..


yup and fingers dont grow back after they have been ripped off .....
skin grafts can repair the damage after the lacie has striped your finger to the bone .


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## jedi_339 (Sep 25, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> You mess with a hungry Lacie, and you got a Dreamworld Lacie!



What's wrong with the Dreamworld lacie? or do you mean one that frequents the park?


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## Renenet (Sep 25, 2011)

I think Cockney is referring to the incident where a tiger at Dreamworld bit a handler.



JAS101 said:


> thats not such a good thing , thats an accident just waiting to happen .



I'm not meaning to put a downer on your experience, Fred - contact with a wild animal is awesome (as long as it doesn't try to attack or eat you ) - but I'd also be concerned about that monitor's diet. It's probably scavenging picnic food regularly if it's bold enough to come that close. Does anyone know if lacies can suffer any ill effects from eating people food?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Sep 25, 2011)

They are some great pics mate,I love it when the lacies visit the camp.


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## vampstorso (Sep 25, 2011)

well, they are his fingers and toes too loose...so what's the concern there?

Lovely photos mate


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## richoman_3 (Sep 25, 2011)

ssssnakeman said:


> They are some great pics mate,I love it when the lacies visit the camp. I cant believe your copping flack for this,lol



its amazing what people cop things for on aps


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## JAS101 (Sep 25, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> well, they are his fingers and toes too loose...so what's the concern there?
> 
> Lovely photos mate


well for one , what if a newbie see`s a pic of someone feeding a wild lacie and trys it and gets done/ bite ?
but yes your right there his fingers and its his problem if it go`s bad .



richoman_3 said:


> its amazing what people cop things for on aps


 and its amazing how pepole comment on things they know nothing about  if u dont own a lacie u just dont know how fast things can go bad..


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## vampstorso (Sep 25, 2011)

I imagine someone who can't figure out a large animal with claws/teeth is dangerous on their own, probably wouldn't listen to warning anyway, and hence seeing this photo makes no impact. 
You can't live your own life based on what others might do.


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## Dukz13 (Sep 25, 2011)

JAS101 said:


> well for one , what if a newbie see`s a pic of someone feeding a wild lacie and trys it and gets done/ bite ?
> but yes your right there his fingers and its his problem if it go`s bad .
> 
> and its amazing how pepole comment on things they know nothing about  if u dont own a lacie u just dont know how fast things can go bad..



Just because someone doesn't own a lacey does not mean they don't know how fast things can go bad...


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## JAS101 (Sep 25, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> I imagine someone who can't figure out a large animal with claws/teeth is dangerous on their own, probably wouldn't listen to warning anyway, and hence seeing this photo makes no impact.
> You can't live your own life based on what others might do.


 im not going to get into a debate , i know first hand what damage theese things can do . this is my opinion take it anyway u wish ....


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## whyme (Sep 25, 2011)

I reckon thats awsome. Great looking Lacie. Almost looks like it could blend into your thongs!


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## r3ptilian (Sep 25, 2011)

Great pics of a stunning Lacie, the only thing that would concern me about it being so brave to accept food would be if a small child was to try and feed it in the same way. But then again any responsible parent would not allow their kids to do this so i say go for it. Just keep ya digits attached.


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## fredsnugget (Sep 25, 2011)

Its my fingers and toes and as i said it was a very relaxed monitor. If he had looked agressive at all i would not have let him get that close. Each to there own but i am a firm believer in being very quiet and non threatning to animals and they will repay the favour. Have not had aproblem with any animals in 40 years so there must be something to it. As to their diet and scabing of people thats there choice and it certainly doesnt look like its effected there heal at all


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## crocdoc (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree that what you do with your own fingers and toes is your business, but the main reason not to feed wild monitors is that it encourages them to seek food from other people as well and eventually someone gets bitten, after which the rangers are forced to relocate the animal. This has happened with some of the lace monitors in a picnic area I frequent. 


r3ptilian said:


> the only thing that would concern me about it being so brave to accept food would be if a small child was to try and feed it in the same way.


That's a very legitimate concern, as most members of the general public are unaware of the teeth these animals have or the feeding response, so even normally responsible parents might allow their children to do this out of ignorance. A lot of people assume that because an animal is in a picnic area in a national park it must be somehow tame and safe. On a couple of occasions I've had to warn people not to let their children hand feed lace monitors.


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## ianinoz (Sep 25, 2011)

Very impressive Lacie.

Would love to have such a close encounter with one who seems so relaxed around people.

I don't think I'd try hand feeding such a big reptile but I would toss it some food treats that it can eat from a safe distance.. 

Pretty sure if it frequented the campground or picnic bbq area and was agressive that the park rangers would relocate it.


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## abnrmal91 (Sep 26, 2011)

Whilst I think they are great pics. It's not a good idea to feed any wild animal. It cause alot of issues regarding food and humans. Whilst it looks placid they can change very quickly. They are very quick when they want to be. Their teeth/claws don't give second chances. 
Not something I would recommend. Let's all go juggle chainsaws. Good in theory not in practice.


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## crocdoc (Sep 26, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> I would toss it some food treats that it can eat from a safe distance..
> 
> Pretty sure if it frequented the campground or picnic bbq area and was agressive that the park rangers would relocate it.


Um, yeah, and how do you suppose they become 'aggressive'... because people are tossing it food. It doesn't benefit anyone when they get relocated, especially not the animal, for it will either get plonked into an unsuitable area (and either starve or get hit by a car crossing roads while trying to find its way back) or will be in direct competition with the monitors already living there. I've been photographing the lace monitors in a nearby national park for 11 years and can say without a doubt that the population of adult monitors is very stable. I've got photographs of the same animals over that 11 year period and most of them were full-sized adults at the start of that period. One of these animals was an old looking adult 11 years ago and hasn't changed, so given that it takes around 10 years to get its size in the wild and another five to ten years before it would start to look aged in any way, that puts it at least 25-30 years old. Moving that animal into an entirely new environment would likely be disastrous for it.

This isn't the same as you feeding your little water skink.


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## grimbeny (Sep 26, 2011)

crocdoc said:


> This isn't the same as you feeding your little water skink.



Maybe its exactly the same


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## crocdoc (Sep 26, 2011)

Off topic a bit, but I forgot to mention:


Fuscus said:


> ... a "semi-bells" ...


That's a pure Bell's phase. The colours don't blend with the normal phase, so they're always either one or the other (i.e. they're all pure Bell's phase or normal phase). Some Bell's phase have broad black bands and in others the black bands are split by a narrow yellow band (as in your photograph), but they're still Bell's phase and will produce Bell's phase offspring if mated with a normal (or a mixture of some Bell's phase babies and some normal phase babies, if the parent Bell's phase is heterozygous for Bell's phase).



grimbeny said:


> Maybe its exactly the same


Ya think? Ever hear of a water skink being relocated by rangers because it bit a member of the public after being fed regularly by picnickers?


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## GeckPhotographer (Sep 26, 2011)

> after which the rangers are forced to relocate the animal.



Depending on the bite it is less likely to be relocated and more likely to be put down, this is often seen as the easier option. The reasons you say it would be devastating for a lacie to be relocated also come into play as a reason to do this. I personally don't think it's right and I actually haven't heard of a case with a lacie, but it has happened with Kookaburras that have injured people when stealing their bbq so it's not to much of a stretch to be applied here. 

So before you go feeding your new placid friend that might turn around and kill you, remember it's not just your fingers and toes, it's his. Oh nice pics by the way.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 26, 2011)

I'll be regarded as a spoiler too... Lace Monitors are very significant predators/carrion eaters in the Australian bush, they'll eat anything they can swallow, and tear up anything that's too big to swallow in one piece. Lacies habituated to people as this one is are potentially very dangerous indeed when in full feeding mode. The bolder they get, the bigger risk they pose to anyone who is handling food in the area - a small child with a sausage from the barbie could easily be a prime target and suffer serious injury as a consequence.

They are grand animals, but NEVER be casual about them, especially at feeding time. Some handlers of so-called tame Lacies have suffered horrific injuries because they become casual about them. These animals are not malicious, but they have a ferocious feeding response, and when they switch into that mode, only a fool would mess with them.

I certainly wouldn't be feeding a large (or even a small) Lace Monitor so close to my feet. It's asking for trouble.

Jamie


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## crocdoc (Sep 26, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Some handlers of so-called tame Lacies have suffered horrific injuries because they become casual about them. These animals are not malicious, but they have a ferocious feeding response, and when they switch into that mode, only a fool would mess with them.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't be feeding a large (or even a small) Lace Monitor so close to my feet. It's asking for trouble.


In my experience, the tame captives are worse than the wild ones because they don't have that element of caution holding them back. I'd never feed my very 'tame' adult male lacie with my hands, or thong-clad feet, so close to the food as in the images at the beginning of this thread because once he starts eating he switches into 'food brain' mode and all bets are off. Anything moves and it's a goner. Fredsnugget, I can fully understand why you got enjoyment out of feeding that monitor. They're spectacular animals and it's always exciting to have one interact, but in the end always be mindful of what's best for the animal, long term. Having seen what they are capable of doing, I wouldn't trust them to 'repay the favour' no matter how quiet and non-threatening you may be, either. That works with snakes and other animals likely to bite one out of fear and self defence, but the feeding response of an adult lace monitor takes no prisoners once it gets going.

One more thing:


fredsnugget said:


> As to their diet and scabing of people thats there choice and it certainly doesnt look like its effected there heal at all


Unfortunately, it's not their choice. We're the thinking animal here, whereas they're responding to instincts honed over millions of years which did not include handouts from humans. Although you may be feeding the monitors something that isn't harmful, once they realise that humans = food, they often end up eating things that are extremely unhealthy. I once saw a lace monitor swallowing aluminium foil because it smelled like barbecued meat. Its instincts told it that anything that smells like meat is edible, but the instincts don't take into account man-made things like aluminium foil. I ran towards it but it had already downed it before I got there.

That may have been what happened to this monitor. This is one of the wild lacies I've seen a number of times over the years. It used to be a beautiful, robust adult lace monitor, as in this photo from a couple of years ago:





This is how it looked the last time I saw it, right at the end of last summer. Compare the patterns and you'll see it's the same individual. It should have been fat and healthy, ready to go into winter, but it was all skin and bones.




It's bad for a monitor to into winter looking like that and its chances of survival are thin. I would put money on it that it got like that through eating the wrong things and probably having an intestinal blockage.

My apologies if all of this sounds like a lecture - as I said, I do understand the desire to interact with the wild monitors, but just be mindful of where it might lead.

I imagine you've all seen this before, but this video (not mine) shows how geed up monitors can get over food.
[video=youtube;F0nkBNicJZM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0nkBNicJZM&amp;feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]


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## gillsy (Sep 26, 2011)

Fuscus said:


> Last time I fed a wild lacie ( a "semi-bells" pictured below) it decided I didn't feed it enough and went for my bare feet. To cut a long story short I ended up pinning it down with a tripod while putting my boots on, after which it hung around camp and scared off other campers



What's a semi bells? It is either a bells or not, like an albino.

Also i'm against feeding wild laceys, what happens if they come up to a small kid or baby with food, and take a chomp - there won't be any fingers left of them.

Also I've seen a lacey die on fraser island from eating a plastic bag, because they were comfortable enough to come around humans, it's not a good thing.


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## ianinoz (Sep 26, 2011)

grimbeny said:


> Maybe its exactly the same



Lizzy benefits, and I do too. 

Now back to the monitor. How do you think wild dogs came to become friendly to humans ?

I'd be willing to bet this monitor regularly raids any rubbish bins in that picnic / bbq area , being a scavenger by inclination .

I'd rather toss it a few snags or slices of cut meat and take the opportunity to watch / photograph it eating from a safe distance. It would be prudent to have long solid stick handy in case the lizard become "too insistant" on more yummy stuff.

If there are children around then it's up to the parents to tell the children to stay away from the big lizard and control the kids while they are eating. Sorry but this is just common sense. Little kids don't know big lizards bite and don't know that grabbing a big wild lizard can be hazardous. Hell even a little lizard like Lizzy can do some damage if it's grabbed and gets a chance to latch onto soft fingers and the soft fresh between the thumb and fingers.

I think those who are making negative comments on this guys encounter are taking themselves why too seriously and making a bigger issue out of this than it warants. 

Be thankful that such a magnificient lizard lives in that park.


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## JAS101 (Sep 26, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> I think those who are making negative comments on this guys encounter are taking themselves why too seriously and making a bigger issue out of this than it warants.
> 
> Be thankful that such a magnificient lizard lives in that park.


i think you may find the pepole who are making negative comments are the ones who have had experiance with lacies.
really we could keep going around in circles , theres little point in doing so .


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## ianinoz (Sep 26, 2011)

JAS101 said:


> i think you may find the pepole who are making negative comments are the ones who have had experiance with lacies.



Maybe , or maybe they are just self appointed experts. 

Some serious over-reactions in this thread.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Lizzy benefits, and I do too.
> 
> Now back to the monitor. How do you think wild dogs came to become friendly to humans ?
> 
> ...



As has been stated earlier, yes, they will become habituated to humans and equate humans with food. At this point, they can and will pursue food aggressively. Someone will lose flesh and the lacie will lose it's life. So much for the "magnificent lizard living in that park."


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Sep 26, 2011)

No way am i going to argue with crocdoc about lacies, That was an awesome vid you showed david , it showed the unpredictability and speed.
They are very fast, I remember watching some captives sandies attack their owner at feeding time a few years ago.
That could have gotten ugly but fortunatly they just grabbed his loose clothes and he got out of it without a bite...that time.
As far as feeding wild animals go, i have to agree that is not a great idea, and im sure fred has learned a few things from this thread aswell.


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## SamNabz (Sep 26, 2011)

Wow ianinoz, I love that you are comparing a little EWS to an adult lacey.



> If there are children around then it's up to the parents to tell the children to stay away from the big lizard and control the kids while they are eating. Sorry but this is just common sense. Little kids don't know big lizards bite and don't know that grabbing a big wild lizard can be hazardous. Hell even a little lizard like Lizzy can do some damage if it's grabbed and gets a chance to latch onto soft fingers and the soft fresh between the thumb and fingers.



You think that if children are sitting next to their parents and have food, that a lacey won't still approach them? Especially if there is another family or individual who is either still there or just left that was feeding them?? Think again...



> I think those who are making negative comments on this guys encounter are taking themselves why too seriously and making a bigger issue out of this than it warants.



Thinking this isn't a big issue and saying that experienced and professional keepers are "taking themselves way too seriously" shows your inexperience. As mentioned, whilst it's a great and fascinating moment having a wild lace monitor (or any wild animal) take food from your hands and come up-close and personal, people need to be warned of the dangers of doing such a thing. Which is simply what the more experienced keepers are doing.



> Be thankful that such a magnificient lizard lives in that park.



The point David (crocdoc) and others are trying to make, is that by us humans feeding these magnificent lizards is not helping anyone. Either a human is going to get hurt or the lizard(s) will get relocated. Who'll be thankful then..?

And please, PLEASE stop comparing everything to the EWS living in your backyard. Pretty sure you've compared it to humans, cats, dogs and now a lacey. It's getting old...


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## saximus (Sep 26, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Maybe , or maybe they are just self appointed experts.


If you're referring to people like Jamie and David (sorry Jas I don't know your reputation as well), there's no self appointing going on. They are experts.

It's a shame this had to turn into a fight. I think they're lovely pics of one of my favourite animals. People should have accepted that it shouldn't really have been done and moved on. In my opinion it's like speeding - you know it's dangerous but you still do it. There's no point arguing that it isn't wrong because it is, it's a fact but we all do silly things every once in a while (either through ignorance or apathy).


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## Firedrake (Sep 26, 2011)

It's a good point not to feed wild animals for their wellbeing as much as our fingers and toes safety, and I mean how many signs do you see around parks and nature reserves saying 'Please don't feed the wildlife'? But the OP was simply showing everyone a few photos of something he found special, it's a good idea to warn everyone of the consequences of such actions and having seen it firsthand I'm sure it makes you professional keepers all the more worried for their safety, but why can't we take it as it is and appreciate the fact that someone had a wonderful experience, you guys have warned us all about feeding wild lacies, he and all of us will know not to do it again and at the end of the day nobody was hurt?

Don't feed the wildlife (or at least don't show the evidence) enjoy nature from a distance, and everyone will be happy. 
No more arguments please, this is just how it seems to me


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## GeckPhotographer (Sep 26, 2011)

For anyone that lives near the North side of Sydney and wants to see why not to feed lacies food. Go up to a camp ground called Mogo Creek, in Yengo on a nice sunny day and have a picnic. I have not been there once without the lacies actively coming in and taking food, no amount of discouragement short of actually picking them up and carrying them away from the food repeatedly will stop them trying. I have seen them charge both adults, and young children who had no food, just in case they did. This is what happens when lacies get overconfident with people and I have no doubt that one day someone, not unlikely a young child will get bitten and it will turn into a media nightmare for the beautiful lizards.


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## sesa-sayin (Sep 26, 2011)

I have known many, many "SEMI BELLES" in my time


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## crocdoc (Sep 26, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Lizzy benefits, and I do too.


I know you do, but it's questionable whether the lizard does. Living inside without access to a basking spot, humid hide spots etc and being fed cat food (if I remember correctly). However, that's neither here nor there, for Lizzy is a water skink in your home and this post is about feeding lace monitors in a public area.



ianinoz said:


> Now back to the monitor. How do you think wild dogs came to become friendly to humans ?


How do you think a significant number of dingos ended up getting shot on Fraser Island, which is one of the last populations of genetically pure dingoes?



ianinoz said:


> I'd rather toss it a few snags or slices of cut meat and take the opportunity to watch / photograph it eating from a safe distance. It would be prudent to have long solid stick handy in case the lizard become "too insistant" on more yummy stuff.


We already know what _you_ would do. We're talking about what's appropriate. Snags and slices of cut meat are not good for it, for several reasons. Encouraging it to be even bolder around people is just one of them. If you like photographing monitors, why not just photograph them without throwing them food? I have been doing exactly that for years and have thousands of photographs of monitors.



ianinoz said:


> If there are children around then it's up to the parents to tell the children to stay away from the big lizard and control the kids while they are eating. Sorry but this is just common sense. Little kids don't know big lizards bite and don't know that grabbing a big wild lizard can be hazardous.


We're not talking about little kids approaching monitors, we're talking about kids minding their own business with a bit of food in their hand (or even just the smell of food that's already been eaten) when a monitor walks up and bites. This has even happened to adults in places I know of where monitors are fed by the public. In one instance, the adult wasn't even eating or near food, just lying down on a picnic blanket when a monitor walked up and bit him on the upper arm, doing extensive damage requiring medical treatment. That monitor would never have done that had it not been encouraged to take food from people.



ianinoz said:


> Hell even a little lizard like Lizzy can do some damage if it's grabbed and gets a chance to latch onto soft fingers and the soft fresh between the thumb and fingers.


Anyone that makes a comparison between a water skink bite and the bite of an adult male lace monitor hasn't had any experience with lace monitors.




ianinoz said:


> Be thankful that such a magnificient lizard lives in that park.


Well, duh, why do you think I have been making the comments I've been making? I love seeing lace monitors in the wild, but they get removed from public areas if they bite people and they are only inclined to bite people if they've been fed.

Sorry, but I believe in putting the animal's welfare ahead of personal kicks, ianinoz. Having worked in the zoo industry for years, I could never understand the public's obsession with needing to feed things their own food. I guess it's the personal interaction. It does enough damage in a captive situation but in the wild there are several other factors which make it worse.



sesa-sayin said:


> I have known many, many "SEMI BELLES" in my time


Is that someone whose mother was a Southern Belle and whose father was a Yankee? 



ianinoz said:


> Maybe , or maybe they are just self appointed experts.


Yeah, you're right, what would I know about lace monitors compared to the likes of you.


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## imported_Varanus (Sep 26, 2011)

Who ever knew talking to a wall could be this entertaining!


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## crocdoc (Sep 26, 2011)

Firedrake said:


> but why can't we take it as it is and appreciate the fact that someone had a wonderful experience, you guys have warned us all about feeding wild lacies, he and all of us will know not to do it again and at the end of the day nobody was hurt?


You're right, it should have ended there, but self-appointed experts like ianinoz keep posting that it's not only okay to feed wild monitors, but that it should be encouraged because it's _good_ for them (with a totally bizarre attempt to compare feeding them to the domestication of dogs, thrown in).


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## Red-Ink (Sep 26, 2011)

Great pics Fred... next time don't feed it though for the reasons already mentioned...

On a side note, I really loved your talk at the VHS David, thanks so much for coming down and sharing your knowledge with us. 
One question... what happens when you need to throw away the rug .


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## crocdoc (Sep 26, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> On a side note, I really loved your talk at the VHS David, thanks so much for coming down and sharing your knowledge with us.


Thanks! But now I realise you should have invited ianinoz down there to talk instead of me 

I hadn't realised you were there - I only know you from the forums so you should have come up and introduced yourself. That way I could put a face to the name. Or perhaps you did come up and chat and I haven't yet made the connection between your online nick and your real world persona?



Red-Ink said:


> One question... what happens when you need to throw away the rug .


I'm going to hold an auction in front of a group of monitor breeders. I often get asked if I'd like to sell it


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## Red-Ink (Sep 26, 2011)

crocdoc said:


> I hadn't realised you were there - I only know you from the forums so you should have come up and introduced yourself. That way I could put a face to the name. Or perhaps you did come up and chat and I haven't yet made the connection between your online nick and your real world persona?
> 
> 
> I'm going to hold an auction in front of a group of monitor breeders. I often get asked if I'd like to sell it



Nah.. I did'nt come up to say hi... should have but I left right after the second talk so I did'nt get the chance to "mingle" (early start the next day).


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## mad_at_arms (Sep 26, 2011)

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and would definitely read it again.


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## ianinoz (Sep 27, 2011)

Mmmmm ..... plenty of personal attacks in this thread by the "experts".

Pretty abusive actually. Well if that makes them feel superior or that it proves how expert they are good for them.

I wont be responding further in this thread , it's become a flame-fest..


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## crocdoc (Sep 27, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Mmmmm ..... plenty of personal attacks in this thread by the "experts".
> 
> Pretty abusive actually. Well if that makes them feel superior or that it proves how expert they are good for them.
> 
> I wont be responding further in this thread , it's become a flame-fest..


Oh, and you're just a set upon wallflower, ianinoz? Why not take a deep breath and read through the thread carefully, while taking notes as to who started the ad hominem attacks. Before you jumped in with your vast wisdom based on a single water skink, the conversation was about monitors, but you decided to add these little snips below so a few of us decided to return the favour. 


ianinoz said:


> I think those who are making negative comments on this guys encounter are taking themselves why too seriously





ianinoz said:


> Maybe , or maybe they are just self appointed experts.


Here's a tip I learned from my parents when I was in short pants and at school: If you don't want to be attacked, don't start the attack yourself.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 27, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Mmmmm ..... plenty of personal attacks in this thread by the "experts".
> 
> Pretty abusive actually. Well if that makes them feel superior or that it proves how expert they are good for them.
> 
> I wont be responding further in this thread , it's become a flame-fest..



I think any personalisation of the comments made here was started by you ianinoz, with your less than pleasant sarcasm concerning 'expertise'... I haven't seen anything I would call abusive. You can certainly question my expertise with adult Lacies - I only have three of them and have never bred them, but when you dismiss the sage advice of crocdoc, you are simply exhibiting your ignorance.

Do you have Lace Monitors? I've had these three lizards for several years now, and know them very well. Anyone who has significant experience with Lacies, especially 'tame' Lacies, will tell you NEVER TAKE THEM FOR GRANTED... In the event of an accident, at the very least stitches may be needed, but don't rule out microsurgery to repair deep damage, and/or massive antibiotic therapy to combat serious infection. A friend of mine was hospitalised and on an antibiotic drip for 3 days when he was bitten while removing a wild Lacie from the enclosure where orphan wallabies were kept...

They are indeed grand lizards, but only a petulant fool would dismiss the advice of someone like DK...


Jamie


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## crocdoc (Sep 27, 2011)

If all of the above is a bit too personal for you, ianinoz, how about if we just examine some of your contributions to this thread rationally and with the full seriousness with which you feel they deserve:



ianinoz said:


> Hell even a little lizard like Lizzy can do some damage if it's grabbed and gets a chance to latch onto soft fingers and the soft fresh between the thumb and fingers.


Here's a photo of a water skink bite. Oh, no, wait - I've got that wrong. It's a photo of a _lace monitor_ bite. My mistake. I presume you have some photos of water skink bites for comparison, ianinoz? 









ianinoz said:


> I think those who are making negative comments on this guys encounter are taking themselves why too seriously and making a bigger issue out of this than it warants.


That photo was of the wrist of a grown man, bitten by a captive lace monitor. After this photo was taken the mate whose wrist that is said he was happy the monitor didn't manage to get a good, solid bite on his wrist (according to him it was just a glancing bite), because if it had his tendons would have been severed and his hand functions would never have been the same again. Maybe you don't see the potential of a child being bitten on the hand by a wild lace monitor (add bacterial soup from a carrion-eating, dirty bite to the physical damage caused by the teeth) as being serious, ianinoz, but many of us see it differently. The ones that do take it seriously have spent time around lace monitors, both captive and wild, and know what they are like. I've seen how wild lace monitors react when they've learned that people are a source of food and I've also seen a few too many close calls between both children and adults around wild lace monitors, while hearing from rangers about other instances that went beyond close calls and about the forced removal of lace monitors from picnic areas as a consequence. No one wins. People suffer physical damage, animals get removed from their own environment, all so someone can get a kick out of seeing something eat. This isn't an attack on you fredsnugget, for I'm sure you got the message three pages ago in this thread! 

ianinoz, did you get my reference to the dingoes on Fraser Island, after you tried comparing feeding lace monitors to the domestication of wild dogs? Dingoes are normally quite shy animals, but years of people feeding them on Fraser Island have made them bolder and there have consequently been a number of attacks on humans, most notably the death of a nine year old boy a number of years ago. Rangers then went in and killed several of the dingoes, the ones that have been scavenging for food from people. That cull was something the Fraser Island dingo population could ill afford. Because of its isolation from the mainland, the dingoes there are probably the purest population in Australia, with no feral dog genes, and they should be conserved rather than destroyed. It is illegal to feed the dingoes and doing so attracts a heavy fine, as well as instant removal of the perpetrator from the island, all for good reason. Clearly monitors are not going to kill anyone as the dingoes have, but the basic message is the same. We all love the outdoors, love seeing animals in the wild and I'm sure no one here likes to hear stories about animals being forcibly removed from the environment, whether it's relocated or culled (I suspect that Geckphotographer is correct in that most are destroyed rather than relocated) - is it really that important for you to get a kick out of feeding wildlife that the risk of human injury/animal removal is worth it? 

Look, take photos, resist the temptation to feed - it's not rocket science.

So, are we going to let this thread die, now, or would you like to keep going?


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## HoffOff (Sep 27, 2011)

I'd much rather a bite from a lacie than a EWS.. have you seen what damage the little things can do!.
Beautiful animals, shame people feed them but you'll always have the uneducated thinking " oh it's getting a free feed, what can go wrong?". Then bam, stumps for fingers.


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## abnrmal91 (Sep 27, 2011)

Crocdoc I actually think the potential of a Lacey killing a little kid is there. All it would take is a similar bite like that pic on a kids leg to sever the femoral artery. I can't believe how some people don't realise how potentially deadly this encounter could be. 
Just my 2 cents but the risk is there.


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## SamNabz (Sep 27, 2011)

Well said, David. That bite pic is horrific, and to think that's only basically a nip..!

ianinoz, you seem to enjoy telling people they know nothing and are inexperienced, yet if they respond to you, you take it as a personal attack (and it's not the first time either). A personal attack is an attack on someones personal life, not if they point you out of the crowd to right your wrongs with fact and experience to avoid confusion. Besides, you are the one who started these so called 'attacks' in the first place?..

If anything you (and others who feel the same way as you do) should be taking on board what everyone has said in this thread, as Jamie (Pythoninfinite) has more years of experience with herps than you've been alive, and David (crocdoc) has kept/bred/studied monitors (especially lacies) for well over a decade or 2 and works with them at zoo's etc.

Instead of just calling them '_self appointed experts_' and going against what they say when they are only trying to help, how about you just sit back and absorb the knowledge...


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## kupper (Sep 27, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Mmmmm ..... plenty of personal attacks in this thread by the "experts".
> 
> Pretty abusive actually. Well if that makes them feel superior or that it proves how expert they are good for them.
> 
> I wont be responding further in this thread , it's become a flame-fest..



your so called "Expert" has been keeping and breeding these creatures well before you where probably born , some respect shown will equal respect given ,

flames only appear when there is fuel and you my friend are a bag a coal just waiting to be burnt :lol:


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## saratoga (Sep 27, 2011)

Ever since being bitten on the finger by a small Spotted Tree Monitor (Water Skink sized) I have the utmost respect for monitors of all types. It had a vice like clamp and left me with a deep little cut down to the bone.

Anyone who knows Mertens Water Monitors might regard them as "placid and friendly". They will often allow you to creep closely for a photo, or crawl out of the water and bask on a rock right next to you. Whilst trying to set up lunch at an NT picnic ground, a large Mertens was charging members of our group obviously intent on trying to get food. This resulted in most of the adults seeking refuge up on the table! What seemed funny at first was actually quite frightening for many. Wildlife needs wild food; feeding animals can cause all sorts of problems fo r both animals and people.

And here's a photo taken by a friend of a Storrs Monitor "Handle with care"

Handle with care photo - Alexander Dudley photos at pbase.com


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## saximus (Sep 27, 2011)

David that photo is insane! It looks more like your friend had a go at himself with a razor blade. It's scary and impressive at the same time


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 27, 2011)

Fabulous photos! I like the storr's photo - you can see the blood has begun to clot... Having worked at the WA Museum for most of my life, and made replicas of many reptiles including monitors, I've had the chance to examine these beasties close up & personal on many occasions. We never killed anything to work on them, we were always able to get good roadkill material to set up & cast, but any examination of the dentition these guys have will tell the observer that their mouths are full of serrated teeth that are literally as sharp as razors (I'm not joking - look at the shreds of skin on the wrist in the photo). When put to use, along with powerful jaw muscles, the combination can do awesome damage to soft-bodied things like humans.

Trust them at your peril!

Jamie


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## serpenttongue (Sep 27, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Depending on the bite it is less likely to be relocated and more likely to be put down, this is often seen as the easier option. The reasons you say it would be devastating for a lacie to be relocated also come into play as a reason to do this. I personally don't think it's right and I actually haven't heard of a case with a lacie, but it has happened with Kookaburras that have injured people when stealing their bbq so it's not to much of a stretch to be applied here.
> .



In Ray Hoser's Smuggled-2 he mentions a lacie being shot dead by wildlife officers because it was seen scavenging from bins in a national park.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 27, 2011)

Dukz13 said:


> you only live once..



Yes you might only live once, but what about other people that visit the area and don't feed them. They will be the ones to cop the raw end of the lacy's hungry attitude.



Renenet said:


> .....Does anyone know if lacies can suffer any ill effects from eating people food?



If sea gulls can thrive on hot chips, surely the free handouts from ppl couldn't hurt them. I am guilty of feeding wildlife, too, but what happens to them if people no longer visit the park? Those animals become dependent on the free feed and forgot to go look for the food they're meant to have.

A lacy running at me, to beat me to a sausage on the ground was enough to tell me it wasn't a good idea. I was feeding sausages to them when one walked straight past a piece. I thought he didn't see it so I went to pick it up and raced to it so quickly, I'd hate to think that I could have lost fingers we got to that piece of sausage at the same time.



richoman_3 said:


> its amazing what people cop things for on aps



I am sure the criticisers would think its great to feed wildlife, as much as you, but they are just concerned for your safety, letting you know to be aware of the dangers of feeding them - especially the likes of goannas, dogs, even the kangaroos have been known to pose threats to the visitor that won't feed them.


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## Dukz13 (Sep 27, 2011)

mysnakesau said:


> Yes you might only live once, but what about other people that visit the area and don't feed them. They will be the ones to cop the raw end of the lacy's hungry attitude.



Yea i was pretty silly posting that i was pretty relaxed about it all and thought who cares if someone feeds a lacey in the park and risks toes and fingers but in saying that crocdoc and a few of the others have brought up alot of legit arguments and i didn't really realize the overall consequences to not only the lacey but the other people using the park.... I was wrong but at the end of the day crocdoc and the others have now helped open up my eyes a little.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 27, 2011)

crocdoc said:


> ......rangers are forced to relocate the animal. .......



Not only a danger to other people, but then the poor lizard is prone to die because it was placed on another's territory.

Ok, I just read crocdoc's comments and pictures of that skinny lacy due to eating the wrong foods. That is a good enough reason for me to say that our food isn't good for them. I hate seeing animals suffer. Had I seen that fella I would have attempted to catch him, take him home and fatten him up on food he should be eating, and let him go again.

I shouldn't have read this thread. I have a wild lacy in my care who was hit by a car. Is that the kind of injury to look forward to when he is fully recovered? Yay, something to look forward to.....not. Might ask Jamie or crocdoc for help to shift him, when he's ready. My fella is only little, but his jaws, tail and claws work as well as an adult.



crocdoc said:


> ........ (add bacterial soup from a carrion-eating, dirty bite to the physical damage caused by the teeth) ......?



I have put freshly thawed pinky rats in for my wild patient and they start to stink before he decides they are nice enough to eat.


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## serpenttongue (Sep 28, 2011)

mysnakesau said:


> Ok, I just read crocdoc's comments and pictures of that skinny lacy due to eating the wrong foods. That is a good enough reason for me to say that our food isn't good for them. I hate seeing animals suffer. Had I seen that fella I would have attempted to catch him, take him home and fatten him up on food he should be eating, and let him go again.



It's not so much that our foods are bad for them, but rather the monitor will start eating foreign objects that smell of our food.

If you took that skinny one home, first you'd have to get it to the vet to see what has caused it's drop in weight, which is probably a foreign object causing an intestinal blockage.


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## ingie (Sep 28, 2011)

I met a little boy a few weeks ago, about 5 or 6 years old. He told me he had been bitten on the tip of his finger by a baby lace monitor at a picnic. Through past experiences with people and food, this baby lacie was bold enough to let this kid go up to him with a bit of food, and he was lucky it was only the tip of his finger! He said it was the worst pain he had ever felt and he definitely would't be doing it again. The mum had NO idea such a cute little lizard could cause so much pain. It is easy for most people, who don't know about their ferocious feeding response and razor sharp teeth, to look at their big cute heads and think of them like big puppies that will come in and gently nibble a bit of food from your hand. 

It is funny when people talk about how 'tame' a lace monitor is. Years ago a friend of mine told me how a guy sold his lacie that he had had for years. He was great with the animal and it was what you would call 'tame'. He could read it's behaviour and was able to pat it and hold it etc without drama. The new owner was a bit of a dick and was showing off with his new 'tame' pet in front of people, when the lacie ripped off his calf muscle. Then as a reflex he reached down with his hand, which got shredded to pieces also. This guy had to have many surgeries to get things sorted out and get feeling etc back to his hand and leg.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 28, 2011)

In terms of physical injuries, there are very few, if any, native Australian animals which can do as much damage as a big monitor. They always look so placid when we see them at the zoo or wildlife park, but crank a hungry one up by offering food and the transformation is awesome. Their ability to slice flesh to the bone is unmatched by anything else in the bush.

Jamie


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## GeckPhotographer (Sep 28, 2011)

> I met a little boy a few weeks ago, about 5 or 6 years old. He told me he had been bitten on the tip of his finger by a baby lace monitor at a picnic. Through past experiences with people and food, this baby lacie was bold enough to let this kid go up to him with a bit of food, and he was lucky it was only the tip of his finger! He said it was the worst pain he had ever felt and he definitely would't be doing it again. The mum had NO idea such a cute little lizard could cause so much pain. It is easy for most people, who don't know about their ferocious feeding response and razor sharp teeth, to look at their big cute heads and think of them like big puppies that will come in and gently nibble a bit of food from your hand.



If you can tell me which park to find a baby lace monitor I will be there tomorrow. Baby Lacies usually spend a lot of their early years in trees making them incredibly hard to find, I've never seen one.


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## mudgudgeon (Sep 28, 2011)

I'll count myself as lucky then. I've come across wild baby lacies quite a few times and been lucky enough to be able to watch them close up in the wild several times.

I have seen lacies be aggresive in picnic areas too, it annoys me to see people feed them, then get upset when they disrupt their picnic.

This thread is is bit of an eye opener though, I've always treated them with caution, but I won't be as relaxed next time one comes sniffing for food when my kids are around.


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## KaotikJezta (Sep 28, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> If you can tell me which park to find a baby lace monitor I will be there tomorrow. Baby Lacies usually spend a lot of their early years in trees making them incredibly hard to find, I've never seen one.


I used to live on a land rights claim on a headland at Urunga and lacies of all ages were a common thing to see, mind you they were very shy and took off up te nearest tree when approached so seeing a baby at a park would be fairly rare I would say.


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## GeckPhotographer (Sep 28, 2011)

I have wild Lacies in my yard, would see anything from probably 0.5m - maybe approaching 1m SVL individuals but never babies. Really want to see a Baby one.


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## crocdoc (Sep 28, 2011)

I think the problem here is the definition of 'baby'. A boy of five or six years of age isn't going to be the best judge of whether a monitor is a baby. Most adults refer to small adult lace monitors as 'babies' if there's a larger lace monitor nearby. Because I grew up overseas and still have an accent after 30 years here, people often love to tell me stories about lace monitors when they see me photographing them in the park. A common one is to explain that the random collection of monitors foraging is actually a nuclear family, with the largest lacie the father, the second largest the mother and the smallest the baby. Typically, the animals in question are all adult males, although I've seen a female in a picnic area a couple of times (very uncommon). 

In all of the years I've been watching lace monitors, sightings of real babies are rare, unless you manage to catch them just as they're emerging from the nest. They're secretive and fast. This is the smallest I've seen, at a few weeks old with a SVL of 12-15cm. It was preoccupied with the king cricket it had just scored and completely ignored me.








GeckPhotographer said:


> I have wild Lacies in my yard, would see anything from probably 0.5m - maybe approaching 1m SVL individuals b


I think you'll find that the larger individuals have a SVL of around 60-65cm rather than a metre. The largest on record is around 75cm SVL and most of them are well short of that.


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## ingie (Sep 28, 2011)

Yes I imagine by baby he meant not an actual baby, but say a 1-3 year old. Much smaller than full sized adults anyway.


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## GeckPhotographer (Sep 28, 2011)

> I think you'll find that the larger individuals have a SVL of around 60-65cm rather than a metre. The largest on record is around 75cm SVL and most of them are well short of that.



I'd trust you to be right, I certainly have not gone an measured them and am not great with lengths in my head. Certainly what I am talking about when I say baby is a hatchling right from the size you picture above up to maybe a 4 months old at most. btw that is a great picture.


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## crocdoc (Sep 28, 2011)

ingie said:


> Yes I imagine by baby he meant not an actual baby, but say a 1-3 year old. Much smaller than full sized adults anyway.


Knowing what the general public are like when it comes to reptile identification, there's even a chance it was a water dragon rather than a monitor. That would explain the bite being described as painful rather than bleeding all over the place (which would impress heavily on the mind of a 5-6 year old and be the first thing they'd mention). 

Thanks, Geck! That shot was taken on transparency, remember those? haha

The smallest lace monitor I've seen foraging in a picnic area was this animal. It was around a metre or so long.




Here it is with an adult male of around 1.7m in the background




and being chased by a brush turkey




The interesting thing is that I saw the very same animal two years later, in the same picnic area, and it hadn't grown at all. I'm pretty sure it's an adult female. Here it is in 2009




and in 2011. Compare the markings.




It's head shape is somewhere between a male and a female, but the overall build and the fact it's still the same size two years later suggests it's a small adult female.


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## ingie (Sep 28, 2011)

crocdoc said:


> Knowing what the general public are like when it comes to reptile identification, there's even a chance it was a water dragon rather than a monitor. That would explain the bite being described as painful rather than bleeding all over the place (which would impress heavily on the mind of a 5-6 year old and be the first thing they'd mention).



Good point! I have no idea how good their reptile identification skills are although we were looking at a half grown lace monitor at the time, and that's what prompted the story from mum and son. 

That baby lacie shot is fantastic CrocDoc!


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## mysnakesau (Sep 28, 2011)

You have some awesome photos Crocdoc. That baby is just too cute. I love seeing the little ones with huge food in their mouth. I saw a tiny baby recently at the same place I found Ricky. He was so tiny I just spotted him as he scooted off the dirt track, and I know it was a lacy - the long tails and the way they run are unmistakable.

Nick, yeah I would take that monitor to the vet. While I consider my husband "anti-vet" he isn't totally heartless. When they do look really sick I have taken them before, and will again.


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## carterd (Sep 28, 2011)

The birds in my yard let me know when we have visitors. One small lacie aprox 80cm resides in our roof.
Years ago when i was 13-14, Noosa National park had huge Lace Monitors that would run up and snatch food from your hand or hit & run familys picnicking.
Soon after they were relocated, so we are led to believe. hasn't been any since.


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## crocdoc (Sep 28, 2011)

I don't know how many years ago you were 13-14, but I took this photo in Noosa National Park in 2001-2002. The original was a transparency, unfortunately on the dark side as it was a beautiful lace monitor. We saw two on the day, the other a fair bit smaller.


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## maddog-1979 (Sep 29, 2011)

i made the mistake of feeding the wild gecko that lives under my back verandah.....now he harrass's me and and calls me names and steals my lunchmoney...last night he bit my friend for lookin at him wrong, and if you think an EWS bite is bad you shoulda seen this little guy...there was almost blood

all jokes aside tho. dont feed the wildlifes!!


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## mysnakesau (Sep 29, 2011)

My daughter went camping at Grassy Heads where goanna's frequent the camping area. My daughter is guilty of feeding them, but she was not the first. This guy came right through their area looking for food so they gave him some bacon and raw eggs.


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## PimmsPythons (Sep 29, 2011)

heres another small noosa national park lacey from 2005
cheers
simon


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## Fuscus (Sep 29, 2011)

carterd said:


> Years ago when i was 13-14, Noosa National park had huge Lace Monitors that would run up and snatch food from your hand or hit & run familys picnicking.
> Soon after they were relocated, so we are led to believe. hasn't been any since.


 What happened is that they removed the rubbish bins from National parks. Though it seemed to me like a bad idea at the time it did actually clean up the picnic sites and that scavengers like lacies have less reason to hang around the site. They are still in the park and I saw one a couple of days ago. The same time has happened at Charlie Morland camp site, 5 years ago if you wanted to photograph a lacie there you had to push two out of the way, now there is only a couple that hang around.


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## Laghairt (Sep 29, 2011)

Is there generally much colour variation between lacies found in northern and southern states? I've only ever seen wild specimens in NSW.

This thread has been very enjoyable to read, thanks for all the info and pics everyone.

Lacies are truly magnificent animals, easily one of my favorite reptiles.


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## GeckPhotographer (Sep 29, 2011)

> The birds in my yard let me know when we have visitors. One small lacie aprox 80cm resides in our roof.



Haha we once raised a young Bell Minor (The bright green ones that are causing die-back but are a native). For weeks and weeks we hand raised this thing, giving it the best care possible. Whenever we went out in the garden we liked to perch it on this big vertical piece of rio-mesh with plants growing on it. Eventually it got big enough that it was just doing test flights around and we were almost getting to the point to release it, and then one day sitting on its rio-mesh a nice sized lacie came and chomped it down.


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## crocdoc (Sep 29, 2011)

Yes, Rondo, there are distinct pattern differences. From about the central coast of NSW and going south, the light coloured scales (that give them the lace pattern for which they were named) form bands around the body, with very little spotting. At the far south of the range, in Victoria and southern NSW, the animals are pretty dark, almost solid black. These three monitors are from the south coast of NSW, near Merimbula.












Going further north, the light speckling is more prominent and some animals can be quite brightly coloured. There is always a fair bit of variation within populations, though, with some darker than others. These monitors are from the Sydney region.
















Going north from Sydney, the spots near the back end of the body start creeping forward. This one is from north of Newcastle




This one is from the north coast of NSW




By the time you get into southern Qld, the spots start to dominate and the neck banding starts to disappear in the adults. This one is from the Brisbane area




Noosa (again)




Yeppoon, central Qld coast




I almost got a shot of one at the far north of their range, in the Daintree, a couple of years ago but the monitor didn't stop as it ran across the road and kept going once it hit the other side. It was completely spotted. I've seen photographs that others have taken of the monitors up there and they have been fully spotted, too.

When you go west of the Great Dividing Range, into the Murray Darling drainage, you get a different looking lace monitor again. They're usually greyish or olive with thin black bands, rather than black with bands of light speckles. 




In amongst these there are also Bell's morph animals, which have a separate 'on/off' gene that makes the whole pattern go whacko and form wide bands instead of narrow bands. They're most prominent west of the ranges, but also show up in some populations on the coast, particularly around the north coast of NSW and southern Qld.


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## Laghairt (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks for the reply David, you really are the man when it comes to Monitors. I would love to see you give a talk on these guys some time.


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## Red-Ink (Sep 29, 2011)

Victorian specimen from the Grampians National Park (Wartook Valley)....


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 29, 2011)

Great info about a fantastic animal Dave! We're a bit north of Port Macquarie at Telegraph Point, on 100 acres of bush in 1000s of hectares of bush, so we see Lacies almost every day through the summer. I reckon about 10% of those we see here could be classed as Bell's phase. I'd like to photograph some of the variation, but they're extremely shy and watchful - we often hear them running off in the bush rather than see them.

I've had my rodent tubs upended by marauding Lacies more than once when I've left the shed door open on hot summer days!

Jamie


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## crocdoc (Sep 29, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Victorian specimen from the Grampians National Park (Wartook Valley)


Notice the similarities between that animal and the one I posted from the Murray Darling drainage. My shot was from the Piliga in central western NSW.
I envy you seeing these in your back yard, Jamie. I've been wanting to move into a house in the outer suburbs, preferably with a yard backing onto a national park, for ages. My two nearest wild lacie access points are around 20 minutes' drive (small population) to 35 minutes' drive (huge population) away.


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## Firedrake (Sep 29, 2011)

Gorgeous and powerful animals for sure, and such variation! Red-Ink that first picture, what's up with it's tail? I can't get my brain to work out why it looks like it has a huge open wound :?


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## Red-Ink (Sep 29, 2011)

Firedrake said:


> Gorgeous and powerful animals for sure, and such variation! Red-Ink that first picture, what's up with it's tail? I can't get my brain to work out why it looks like it has a huge open wound :?



Bark in front of the leg....


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## fredsnugget (Sep 29, 2011)

Looks like I started a heated discussion. But a very informative one. A lot of very legitimate critism has been levelled and alot i had not considered, so i will take that on board. I was not planning on it turning into such a long discussion but i will take your advice onboard. I have never seen a big monitor in a feeding rage so no i did not consider this but will now, thanks also for all the other incredible pictures posted. Living in the city now i miss seeing all the widelife at my door every day but it will happen again soon i hope


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## crocdoc (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks for taking it so well, Fred. I hope you hadn't read it as harsh criticism, for it wasn't meant to be.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 29, 2011)

I have followed the proceedings here and refrained from posting as others were doing such a good job. However, there are a few comments I would like to make. 

Ianinoz, please take note that correcting incorrect information is not criticising and educating is not attacking. I believe the differences arose as a result of perspectiverather than of values. I would not like to think you felt personally attacked. I think Crocdoc did an admirable job to explain that and in tackling the issues logically rather than emotively.

The problems associated with feeding lace monitors is nothing new. It was occurring in Sydney in recreational areas of bushland reserves and parks over 40 years ago. How you view it depends on your perspective. If you see it as a one off occurrence that you do and others probably don’t, then it is easily justified. However, the reality is that if you are able to feed wild monitors, then it is far from a one-off occurrence. As has been so graphically pointed out, if you are able to do this then you are contributing to a behavioural pattern which can result in serious injury to park users. At the same time it is likely to result in removal of the offending reptiles. 

Relocation of these animals does not work. Any area of suitable habitat is going to have an established population. When you add an adult to that population, the resources are already being fully utilised and there is no room for anotheradult unless there is a death of an existing adult in the area (an unlikelyscenario). Euthanasia is the better alternative.

A final comment. The potential for ridicule was rife. I am impressed at those who resisted the temptation and dealt with the issues in a matter of fact manner. 


Blue


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## fredsnugget (Sep 30, 2011)

I have thick skin Crocdoc and we are never to old to learn from others experiences. There is always someone who has more knowledge and experience than us and even the most unlikely people can teach us something. However it was still a great day and something i will remember. Just wont do it again as i do appreciate the critism levelled.


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## thepythia (Sep 30, 2011)

Heres a couple of North QLD monitors. We live in the rainforest backing a national park so see alot of critters, Id have to say though I've definitely seen more monitors than anything else.
They're amazing lizards.


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## Laghairt (Sep 30, 2011)

Wow they are some beautiful looking monitors, I've never seen a lacie with spots like that before. The patterning reminds me of a Perentie.


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## crocdoc (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks for those shots, thepythia. They show the spots and lack of neck banding that I mentioned very well!


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## thepythia (Sep 30, 2011)

No problem  I figured they would be a good representation. I have seen a wide variety of markings though, even just around the house.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks *thepythia*- great pics and just as Crodoc described them.

A few general comments on wild feeding and related interaction with animals,which I split off an earlier post because this "anti bump" software will not allow two consecutive posts... 

With respect to feeding wild animals so that you can interact closely with them, there are some realties that need to be taken on board. Unless you can guarantee a continuing food supply, day after day all year, as an on-going activity, then feeding wild animals should be a spasmodic thing only. Otherwise these animals become dependent on the food you are providing and once it is removed they have a problem obtaining sufficient food to support the population that has developed as a result of the artificial food supply.This is aside from any behavioural issues.

There are some significant differences between feeding animals confined to the “unnatural environment” of a domestic dwelling and block and those that are mobile enough to come and go from adjacent bushland. The guidelines outlined above should be applied to mobile visitors. What one chooses to do with permanent residents is up to the individual. Personally I would be inclined to maintain normal hunting/collecting behaviour through occasional feeding so that should the animal decide to move on or should the householder do so, the animal will still be in a position to look after itself. Under certain circumstances it may well be appropriate to treat it as if it were a captive even though it is has free-range. 

Someone mentioned wild animals appreciating what you do for them. Timothy Treadwell spent 13 summers living with Grizzly Bears, at the end of which he and his girlfriend were killed and eaten by them. Not so long ago a chap in Europe who had a collection of King Cobras he had free handled for some 20 plus years was found dead from a bite. Records have him saying that his snakes would never try to harm him as they know he looks after them.

Blue


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## Elapidae1 (Sep 30, 2011)

Cheers Crocdoc and others I have a new found respect for all monitors.


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## davebarrow (Sep 30, 2011)

thats awesome he must not have a great deal of food around , we should start looking after the wildlife so all animals have enough food


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## serpenttongue (Sep 30, 2011)

davebarrow said:


> thats awesome he must not have a great deal of food around , we should start looking after the wildlife so all animals have enough food



There would be plenty of food around for that monitor and others in the area, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't take advantage of any opportunities to get hand fed.


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## cement (Sep 30, 2011)

fredsnugget said:


> I have thick skin Crocdoc and we are never to old to learn from others experiences. There is always someone who has more knowledge and experience than us and even the most unlikely people can teach us something. However it was still a great day and something i will remember. Just wont do it again as i do appreciate the critism levelled.



Good on you Fred, that is the spirit. It was a great experience for you, now with awareness about what you were doing you realize your mistake. It takes a big heart to respond like you have and shows maturity.
The feeding of wildlife by members of the public is a practice that needs to be stamped out. Making people aware of the problems associated with it is the reason why NPWS have such large and plentiful signs up on Frazer Is. The animals are at risk because people feed them, then they expect a feed, and when someone turns up with no food, to bad the animal has gone into food response, someone gets nailed the animal is killed. BUT the person who feeds the animal doesn't see this....


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## Australis (Sep 30, 2011)

Central Coast, NSW.












Yeppoon area, QLD.


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 3, 2011)

Good on ya Fred... I actually wouldn't call the comments from those in the know 'criticism' - those directed at you were probably aimed at being constructive. It's usually the members of the peanut gallery that turn these things into a bunfight! Your response has been admirable.

Jamie


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## crocdoc (Oct 3, 2011)

Spot on


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## Mo Deville (Oct 3, 2011)

hey just wondering if Lace monitors are native to brisbane? i remember seeing one a couple of years ago when i was working outside, it was very dark almost black with very strong yellow spots and it came down of a tree which i was standing next to beautiful solid animal, it was about a metre long.


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## serpenttongue (Oct 3, 2011)

Yes, lacies are native to Brisbane. They are found all the way up the east coast of Australia, from Victoria to around Cairns, I believe.


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## Mo Deville (Oct 3, 2011)

nice.


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