# Why do people feed live, really?



## TerryW (Apr 28, 2009)

[video=youtube;anea4gnt1fk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anea4gnt1fk[/video]

There are people who claim that they're animal lovers, yet have no respect for the animal they are throwing into enclosure with the snake. Their defence?



> yes but what's the point in that? Snakes are killers....they like things alive...that they can kill! Plus i don't have my two snakes anymore. i gave them to my best friend..learn to deal w/ pain dude...u have some issues!





> wow loser


Is it any surprise people feed live when they are this stupid? For the majority of cases, people feed live because they take some kind of perverse pleasure in the kill, not for the welfare of their snake. Would this be a fair assumption? 

I know that live feeding is illegal in Aus, but not quite so in the US. I'm curious to know why they haven't followed Australia and UK's position on live feeding.


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## pythons73 (Apr 28, 2009)

You have to remember it is America,theres so many youtube vids i watch them feeding live rodents,


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## Mayhem (Apr 28, 2009)

About 13 Years ago (when I was about 15) when there wasnt a very large herp community (that I knew of) and I was pretty much the only person I knew that even kept snakes, I used to feed live. 

The breeders I bought off diddnt tell me otherwise (I am pretty sure they fed live as well) and although it wasnt somthing I got pleasure out of watching, I had no real problem with it otherwise. Injury to the snake never occured to me to be hounest and as for the mouse, well, that was just the way of life as far as I was concerned.

I tried not to think about the fact that I was essentially ending another animals life, it was one of those things that wernt the best part of keeping snakes, but well, I just diddnt know any different - as far as I was concerned, either the snake would kill it, or I would have to, which I diddnt want to directly do for the same reasons of not enjoying that side of herping but frozen/thawed/freshly killed just wasnt an option for me and I will admit that I did have a bit of concern that the snake wouldnt be interested in somthing that wasnt moving and how healthy it would be.

I still dont have a great problem with feeding live. Thats not to say I do it today with my awareness for potential injury to my snakes, but I cant say the brutality is my sole reason for not doing it. 

Its also neccesary somtimes for snakes that are extreme case difficult feeders.

Anyway, long story short, I used to do it, dont do it anymore, dont have a problem with it as such but I also dont have a problem with frozen/thawed and its super convienience with the safety and lesser cruelty to the mouse these days either.


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## Earthling (Apr 28, 2009)

TerryW said:


> For the majority of cases, people feed live because they take some kind of perverse pleasure in the kill, not for the welfare of their snake. Would this be a fair assumption?


Not that long ago it was okay to take pleasure in killing something....its only a modern ethical trait to say oooo...baaaaad person. Most humans now buy their dead animal from Woolies and Coles wrapped in plastic on a little foam tray with special absorbent plastic that soaks up all the bloooooood. Far removed from killing an animal.
You may find genetically we may have genes that make many humans predisposed to get pleasure from killing something. How many kids see a bug and want to kill it? Wheres that from? It would certainly be a good trait for a race that eats animals.
So...its the way humans are....only some of us learn that we have a choice and even less make a choice.


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## ashleys (Apr 28, 2009)

isnt it cheaper to breed your own mice and feed them to your snake I'm new tho i didnt no it was illegal to live feed but i havent as I dont have a snake


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## Vixen (Apr 28, 2009)

ashleys said:


> isnt it cheaper to breed your own mice and feed them to your snake I'm new tho i didnt no it was illegal to live feed but i havent as I dont have a snake


 
Yes, just because you breed your own doesnt mean you can't gas them / knock them on the head. A simple soda stream setup is all thats needed for gassing, so no excuse to feed live!


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## ashleys (Apr 28, 2009)

thanks but whats a soda stream setup?


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## spydalover (Apr 28, 2009)

i mean im against live feeding but i have seen youtube vids that are worse than live feeding mice or rats and thats i think he was american as he had a burmese python but he feed it a live rabbit


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## Vixen (Apr 28, 2009)

spydalover said:


> i mean im against live feeding but i have seen youtube vids that are worse than live feeding mice or rats and thats i think he was american as he had a burmese python but he feed it a live rabbit


 
Why is that worse than a mouse or rat, its still an animal that can feel pain.


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## redbellybite (Apr 28, 2009)

You lot might change your thinking if you ever see what damage a snake can endure from a rat biting at it ..teeth razor sharp chewing at the snakes skin leaving gaping wounds not to say how bloody painful for the snake to go through and on top the risk of death or infection ,all for the sake of a bit of excitment ...sometimes the snakes arent in hunger mode straight away ,the rat /mouse is on total fear alert and will attack before being attacked ...stupidity is all the answer comes down to ... love to get a hold of these morons and let a rat feast on them ,see if that makes them change their minds.


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## gpoleweski (Apr 28, 2009)

To actually put it straight in there in an enclosure built for the snake...A live animal that will have no chance. Are people so lazy as to not euthenise(sp?) and then feed? Doesn't matter what it is or where it came from.

GO RBB!

I also don't like the smart**** commentary this guy gives when the rat's being killed, "You think you know everything?" 'Yeah.' *fist in face* "Did you know that?"


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## Jsm88 (Apr 28, 2009)

Earthling said:


> Not that long ago it was okay to take pleasure in killing something....its only a modern ethical trait to say oooo...baaaaad person. Most humans now buy their dead animal from Woolies and Coles wrapped in plastic on a little foam tray with special absorbent plastic that soaks up all the bloooooood. Far removed from killing an animal.
> You may find genetically we may have genes that make many humans predisposed to get pleasure from killing something. How many kids see a bug and want to kill it? Wheres that from? It would certainly be a good trait for a race that eats animals.
> So...its the way humans are....only some of us learn that we have a choice and even less make a choice.



You gotta remember, we're just animals too


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## dave8208 (Apr 28, 2009)

so i suppose all you lizard keepers will euthenise your crickets before you feed them to your pet ?????
or dont insects count as a living animal......?


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 28, 2009)

At the end of the day while I agree it is brutal there will always be people who feed live animals to their snakes. Why? Because it is very entertaining. Do I do it? No. But seeing one of natures best evolved predators attacking its prey is as entertaining as a movie. Does that make me a sadistic person? Should I be sentenced to death because of it? 

I do not advocate the feeding of live animals at all as I think it is to risky but I can see why some people do it. 

I was also going to ask for proof of snakes being bitten by mice or rats. A quick google to make sure I wasn't going to make a fool of myself saved me the embarrassment as it seems it is quite a common occurance if the mice or rat is left in there for any length of time. So a warning to people who do feed live - be careful and always monitor the process until the mouse/rat is dead!


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## LauraM (Apr 28, 2009)

Jsm88 said:


> You gotta remember, we're just animals too


yeah thats why some of us get enjoyment from killing each other... .....thing is the bigger the animal the more people that dont like to kill it .... how many people squash ants and crickets, but when it comes to bigger animals like mice, cats and dogs its a big NO NO. You cant help it if some idiots feed live mice, its a personal choice and i believe its a stupid one not just because they can hurt the reptile, but why make a mouse sufer when you can euthanize.


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## spydalover (Apr 28, 2009)

yea i no that their all animals but to me its worse as i have seen the damage both can do and it isnt pretty and both the animals died by the way i didnt do it a guy i knew did i dont know y


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## brendon93 (Apr 28, 2009)

by mcloughlin2


> At the end of the day while I agree it is brutal there will always be people who feed live animals to their snakes. Why? Because it is very entertaining. Do I do it? No. But seeing one of natures best evolved predators attacking its prey is as entertaining as a movie. Does that make me a sadistic person? Should I be sentenced to death because of it?
> 
> I do not advocate the feeding of live animals at all as I think it is to risky but I can see why some people do it.
> 
> I was also going to ask for proof of snakes being bitten by mice or rats. A quick google to make sure I wasn't going to make a fool of myself saved me the embarrassment as it seems it is quite a common occurance if the mice or rat is left in there for any length of time. So a warning to people who do feed live - be careful and always monitor the process until the mouse/rat is dead!


fair call


also, feeding bugs live to lizards is a totally different matter. the law is you can only feed inverterbrates live, which is fair


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## LauraM (Apr 28, 2009)

Jsm88 said:


> You gotta remember, we're just animals too





dave8208 said:


> so i suppose all you lizard keepers will euthenise your crickets before you feed them to your pet ?????
> or dont insects count as a living animal......?


 


yeah thats why some of us get enjoyment from killing each other... .....thing is the bigger the animal the more people that dont like to kill it .... how many people squash ants and crickets, but when it comes to bigger animals like mice, cats and dogs its a big NO NO. You cant help it if some idiots feed live mice, its a personal choice and i believe its a stupid one not just because they can hurt the reptile, but why make a mouse sufer when you can euthanize.


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## Vixen (Apr 28, 2009)

LauraM said:


> .....thing is the bigger the animal the more people that dont like to kill it .... how many people squash ants and crickets, but when it comes to bigger animals like mice, cats and dogs its a big NO NO.


 
I personally don't think thats the reason why, its probably because larger animals show more personality and intelligence than for example a cricket.


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## gpoleweski (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't know about other people bt if a fly or a cockroach is being a nuisance(sp?) I'll pick it up or catch it gently in a tissue and let it go outside...Chances are it'll come back in, but I just think that it's not fair to kill another animal for absolutley no reason. A fly comes into your house, it's not supid fly, it's fly who flew into your house because you're coooking something nice.


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## jdonly1 (Apr 28, 2009)

gpoleweski said:


> I don't know about other people bt if a fly or a cockroach is being a nuisance(sp?) I'll pick it up or catch it gently in a tissue and let it go outside...Chances are it'll come back in, but I just think that it's not fair to kill another animal for absolutley no reason. A fly comes into your house, it's not supid fly, it's fly who flew into your house because you're coooking something nice.


I just splat them:?


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## Emmalicious (Apr 28, 2009)

I know that, snakes in the wild eat live rodents (obviously) but I think... if you keep snakes there is no need to feed them live food. I couldn't do it myself because I can't stand to see another animal suffer. I think if you breed your own rats that you should kill them humanly not just throw them into a snake enclosure. Plus it can sometimes harm your pet snakes aswell.


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## redbellybite (Apr 28, 2009)

mcloughlin2 said:


> At the end of the day while I agree it is brutal there will always be people who feed live animals to their snakes. Why? Because it is very entertaining. Do I do it? No. But seeing one of natures best evolved predators attacking its prey is as entertaining as a movie. Does that make me a sadistic person? Should I be sentenced to death because of it?
> 
> I do not advocate the feeding of live animals at all as I think it is to risky but I can see why some people do it.
> 
> I was also going to ask for proof of snakes being bitten by mice or rats. A quick google to make sure I wasn't going to make a fool of myself saved me the embarrassment as it seems it is quite a common occurance if the mice or rat is left in there for any length of time. So a warning to people who do feed live - be careful and always monitor the process until the mouse/rat is dead!


 Why? did you doubt what I had posted .... I have seen it first hand ...


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## Vixen (Apr 28, 2009)

gpoleweski said:


> I don't know about other people bt if a fly or a cockroach is being a nuisance(sp?) I'll pick it up or catch it gently in a tissue and let it go outside...Chances are it'll come back in, but I just think that it's not fair to kill another animal for absolutley no reason. A fly comes into your house, it's not supid fly, it's fly who flew into your house because you're coooking something nice.


 
Oh yay another person like me, I do the same thing, now I dont feel so weird. :lol:


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## FAY (Apr 28, 2009)

Emmalicious said:


> I know that, snakes in the wild eat live rodents (obviously) but I think... if you keep snakes there is no need to feed them live food. I couldn't do it myself because I can't stand to see another animal suffer. I think if you breed your own rats that you should kill them humanly not just throw them into a snake enclosure. Plus it can sometimes harm your pet snakes aswell.




We don't know how many snakes get injured/killed by their prey in th wild!


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## Elise (Apr 28, 2009)

don't have an issue with feeding insects to lizards... only feeding live mice/rats to snakes... it would be ok if the mice didn't have the brain to attack back... its only nature and i guess people are killing mice even if they think its cruel or they are not doing so... as soon as you buy a snake your a consummer in the rat/mice killing process even if it aint first hand.


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## gpoleweski (Apr 28, 2009)

@VixenBabe Haha, I always get the complaint from my brother, 'JUST WHACK HIM!"

I like to think that that fly will become some happy spiders food...or something. 

In the outdoors, fine. I was watching planet earth and a snake was snatching bats in the dark on a ledge...I had no problem with that, they're all in their natural habitats and it's the food chain. I really doubt you have a natural working ecosystem within your house so I don't see the need to have to live feed. And as others have said risk injury to the witlle snakey wakey.


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## Elise (Apr 28, 2009)

fay... i guess in the wild the mice arn't thrown in the snakes path without a escape root... but there is vids on youtube with rats/mice eating wild snakes.... i seen one anyways... think it was youtube...


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## redbellybite (Apr 28, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> We don't know how many snakes get injured/killed by their prey in th wild!


 Fayse no doubt injuries can occur when a wild snake is capturing a rodent for dinner especially if it hasnt quite got the grip on the rat/mouse right and the rodent is able to bite whilst being constricted ,but the main view of cruelty stands that the captive snake is in a controlled enviroment ,so has no way of getting away from the rodent if its not choosing to eat straight away or grips bad ...its not worth the risk to your snake


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## Slyther83 (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't feed my snake live, but complaining about others doing it doesn't make much sense to me. We're keeping animals as pets who would realistically much more enjoy their lives if they were in the wild. You know that most animals' final stages of mental development are based on their ability to hunt food for themselves in the wild? That is why dogs kept as pets never develop past a juvenile mental capacity. 

If you want to argue about feeding live, one could argue the entire premise of keeping animals as pets entirely. Snakes eating live are living a more natural life than those that we put in a tub and eagerly await us to dangle something in front of them that's already dead.

I find it funny that human nature is to take animals out of their environment and try and change the way they have evolved, which has been a far longer process than our own.


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## John_lisa (Apr 28, 2009)

look at the end of the day u guys may not like it and i may not (witch i dont even though it is rather cool how quickly a snake strikes and kills) but we all have are own thoughts if they wanna take the risk of there pet getting hurt or worse killed for there own amusment then so be it there is not much we can do i mean yes it is pritty sick that then can even think of taking the risk but what can we do about it i mean like look 2 of u just said that u would not kill a roch or fly yet i would i mean we all look at thing diffrently and there laws are not the same as ares and they are allowed to do it i mean i can go on forever but i think u get what i mean


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## gpoleweski (Apr 28, 2009)

Settled...Well, people have different viepoints and people can express them.


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## Vixen (Apr 28, 2009)

johno799 said:


> look at the end of the day u guys may not like it and i may not (witch i dont even though it is rather cool how quickly a snake strikes and kills) but we all have are own thoughts if they wanna take the risk of there pet getting hurt or worse killed for there own amusment then so be it there is not much we can do i mean yes it is pritty sick that then can even think of taking the risk but what can we do about it i mean like look 2 of u just said that u would not kill a roch or fly yet i would i mean we all look at thing diffrently and there laws are not the same as ares and they are allowed to do it i mean i can go on forever but i think u get what i mean


 
I have no problems feeding roaches to my geckos because they need them to survive. However if a snake happily accepts killed food items I really cant get my head around why people would feed live and risk injury to their snake, and to put the poor prey item through such trauma.


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## channi (Apr 28, 2009)

jdonly1 said:


> I just splat them:?


 Funny that, I want to splat your avatar lol.


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## channi (Apr 28, 2009)

I once threw a live mouse in with a snake that wouldn't eat. The snake bit the mouse, the mouse screamed and bit the snake back. The snake released the mouse and retreated. I cried took the mouse out and treated her like a beloved pet for the rest of her days.
Moral of the story, feeding live is horrific for all involved, and i am a big girly squat.


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## John_lisa (Apr 28, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> However if a snake happily accepts killed food items I really cant get my head around why people would feed live and risk injury to their snake, and to put the poor prey item through such trauma.


 
yes i think the same way but like i said ppl have there own thoughts and even though we dont like it others think its funny to watch and i mean it is slack to the mice/rat and snake to put it at risk but yea if thats how they like to do it let them and dont get me wrong i love snakes but one day there snake will get attacke and they will wish they never did it


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## GTsteve (Apr 28, 2009)

Slyther83 said:


> I don't feed my snake live, but complaining about others doing it doesn't make much sense to me. We're keeping animals as pets who would realistically much more enjoy their lives if they were in the wild. You know that most animals' final stages of mental development are based on their ability to hunt food for themselves in the wild? That is why dogs kept as pets never develop past a juvenile mental capacity.
> 
> If you want to argue about feeding live, one could argue the entire premise of keeping animals as pets entirely. Snakes eating live are living a more natural life than those that we put in a tub and eagerly await us to dangle something in front of them that's already dead.
> 
> I find it funny that human nature is to take animals out of their environment and try and change the way they have evolved, which has been a far longer process than our own.


 

Thats very interesting information about the mental development of animals. Thanks for posting. I had not heard/read/considered that before.


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## Pythons Rule (Apr 29, 2009)

I used to do it when I started up but I stopped as soon as I found out it was illegal, appart from one of my snakes that was an exstremely fussy eater for 5 years that I had him, when I say exstrem I meen would make anything not moving sit there till it went off or the ants got to it. yes I tried waving it about his head, tryie's dripping abit of water on it's tongue, trie's putting him in the dark with a sheet over, tried moving him to quiet room etc etc etc, I most of the time fresh killed it which I hated so much it sometimes made me sick. took him to the vets a few times and they said to me its better to feed him something instead of nothing, also after the hole time of breeding my own rats dueing this time I did give him some live but just so you know the adults and medium's are the only ones that get brave anouph to fight for there lives and attack the snakes. I see if they will attack your hand they will attack the snake no worries, sometimes hitting them over the head doesn't work exspecially with a adult male rat and be carefull if they wake up cause then they go syko, and this is very dangerous for anything in its path luckally I was watching and as soon as it turned I managed to get it out. 

I'd like to state I managed after 5 years to finally get him eating defrosted rats which was the goal in the first place and I did try every few months to offer a defrosted rat, he was eating defrosted rats for half a year and I sold him last month as a very good eater.

no not and will not feed another live/fresh killed rat ever again unless nessersary (very fussy eater)


and yes I have seen photo's of snake's skin and scale's that have been pealed off the snake with chuck's out of it by an adult rat. so don't say you would of done differently if you ever saw such a thing. the thing I can't understand how come the owner didn't sit and watch to make sure that didn't happen?


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## TerryW (Apr 29, 2009)

Some interesting thoughts. I've got a few of mine to add after reading the replies.



Earthling said:


> Most humans now buy their dead animal from Woolies and Coles wrapped in plastic on a little foam tray with special absorbent plastic that soaks up all the bloooooood. Far removed from killing an animal.



I don't see how eating meat has anything to do with this. You're eating a dead animal, not a live one... thus the comparison to live feeding is pretty pointless.



Earthling said:


> You may find genetically we may have genes that make many humans predisposed to get pleasure from killing something. How many kids see a bug and want to kill it? Wheres that from? It would certainly be a good trait for a race that eats animals.



There is no proof of this genetic link. Are people murderers and serial assaulters when they are born? Or do their upbringing meld them into it? As I kid when I saw a bug on the footpath I didn't want to kill it. Maybe this is just natural human curiosity... and immaturity?



LauraM said:


> thing is the bigger the animal the more people that dont like to kill it .... how many people squash ants and crickets, but when it comes to bigger animals like mice, cats and dogs its a big NO NO.



But when you squash ants and crickets, it is instantaneous. Insects do not even have pain receptors or developed enough brains to register pain on the level that mammals do. All mammals are pretty similar in terms of feeling pain.



Slyther83 said:


> If you want to argue about feeding live, one could argue the entire premise of keeping animals as pets entirely. Snakes eating live are living a more natural life than those that we put in a tub and eagerly await us to dangle something in front of them that's already dead.



It really isn't about what's "natural", but rather what is "right". As humans we take ethics into consideration - in the wild all animals are fair play and we have no control over that. But in an artificial setting we do have choices, and when it involves potential suffering, then it must be taken into consideration. In captivity you don't need to throw a live mouse into an enclosure with a snake. There's no need for the extra anxiety to feed the snake, nor the need for extra suffering of the prey item to feed the snake. There's no need for that element of risk to the snake.

In principle, it's no different than feeding a dog from a pet store to a hungry, caged lion.

Often people who feed live are very ignorant and think it's the only way. Telling them just may as well open their minds a little and make them think about it. Who cares if you don't convince them all, that's not the point.


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## Stompsy (Apr 29, 2009)

......


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## jdonly1 (Apr 29, 2009)

channi said:


> Funny that, I want to splat your avatar lol.


hehehehe


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## Serpentor (Apr 29, 2009)

johno799 said:


> look at the end of the day u guys may not like it and i may not (witch i dont even though it is rather cool how quickly a snake strikes and kills) but we all have are own thoughts if they wanna take the risk of there pet getting hurt or worse killed for there own amusment then so be it there is not much we can do i mean yes it is pritty sick that then can even think of taking the risk but what can we do about it i mean like look 2 of u just said that u would not kill a roch or fly yet i would i mean we all look at thing diffrently and there laws are not the same as ares and they are allowed to do it i mean i can go on forever but i think u get what i mean


You wrote that whole thing without a single full stop. It makes it a lot harder to read. Also, it's 'their pet', not 'there pet'.


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## hilly (Apr 29, 2009)

I'd like to see proof of a study showing that dogs never make it past the juvenile mental stage.....


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## LauraM (Apr 29, 2009)

deleted


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## LauraM (Apr 29, 2009)

> I don't know about other people bt if a fly or a cockroach is being a nuisance(sp?) I'll pick it up or catch it gently in a tissue and let it go outside...Chances are it'll come back in, but I just think that it's not fair to kill another animal for absolutley no reason. A fly comes into your house, it's not supid fly, it's fly who flew into your house because you're coooking something nice.


 
i do the same aswell lol...


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## The_Cake (Apr 29, 2009)

I only found out it was illegal to feed live about a month ago. About 2 months earlier i chucked a live mouse in with my 6 foot Bredli. Mousew ran around for a while, even sniffed my snakes face, and all the while the snake did nothing. I guess i thought it'd be like a Nat Geo doco where the snake would stalk its prey and the mouse wouldn't see it coming, and it'd be over before the mouse new it was alive. Long story short, 30min later my mate tossed the mouse towards the snake who met it half way in the air. Has to be one of the most awesome things i've ever seen. Though saying that, i wouldn't do it again. The mouse stood no chance, made a horrific scream as it was hit, and the force of impact splashed blood across the glass of the enclosure. I'll stick to watching doccos in future.


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## redbellybite (Apr 29, 2009)

Slyther83 said:


> I don't feed my snake live, but complaining about others doing it doesn't make much sense to me. We're keeping animals as pets who would realistically much more enjoy their lives if they were in the wild. You know that most animals' final stages of mental development are based on their ability to hunt food for themselves in the wild? That is why dogs kept as pets never develop past a juvenile mental capacity.
> 
> If you want to argue about feeding live, one could argue the entire premise of keeping animals as pets entirely. Snakes eating live are living a more natural life than those that we put in a tub and eagerly await us to dangle something in front of them that's already dead.
> 
> I find it funny that human nature is to take animals out of their environment and try and change the way they have evolved, which has been a far longer process than our own.


 I think you are failing to understand what some are saying here ...I myself fully understand the live feed debate on an instinct level...and all though I feel for the rodent ,I do love the thrill feeling of watching a WILD reptile hit its prey ...BUT this is about reptiles kept as pets ,not in a wild enviroment, but a man made CONTROLLED one ..thus being the issue of feeding live .We have all had experiences where our snake might not eat at the time of giving it the rodent ,so as most do leave it in there and the snake will usually eat it over night (this is a risk with live due to bad grip and get a bite) But there are times where the snake wont eat it and it has to be removed ...under a live feed this could end in detrimental circumstances for the snake ...(in the wild ,if a snake doesnt want to eat ,its not in a situation where a rodent can attack it ,in captivity the rat cant get away so will attack , before being attacked )THIS was the point made by most that have posted .


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## Jungletrans (Apr 29, 2009)

l sometimes feed almost live . With a difficult feeder l give the rat a good wack and hold it up while it is still twitching . The best thing here is if the snake doesnt eat it , and none of the others are due for a feed , you can put it in the freezer . l hate having to throw out l wasted rat .


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## redbellybite (Apr 29, 2009)

Jungle ,I feed live like that too...the live that most of us are focused on is the dropping in a fully totally with is rat/mouse that has all its bearings and instincts in overload due to it knowing its been put in danger ...rodents arent stupid ,they know danger ...


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## cris (Apr 29, 2009)

Some ppl are pyschopaths who enjoy causing or watching animals suffering. Some ppl feed live becuase they dont know any differant or think that their snake wont eat dead stuff(which is rubbish in most cases). Some ppl would do it so they can observe the animals hunting and feeding behaviour and the prey suffering is seen as a minor issue. Also some animals kill their prey as fast or even faster than a human would, in such cases i see no differance.

Its still common practice for Qld petshops to sell live animals(including fish, shrimps and crayfish) as food when its illegal to feed them to most animals unless humanely killed first. They also sell crickets and roaches as live food, but this is still legal for now. Im not sure how long it will be untill our ethics and laws become more perfect and live feeding of all animals is treated equally and also a full recognition of plant and fungal rights.


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## Mayhem (Apr 29, 2009)

I dont think I could bring myself to smash a mouse or rat on the head or kill it myself. I'll stick to thawing them out from a packet I bought at the local pet store.


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## jezzabel (Apr 29, 2009)

I now have two snakes that I feed mice to. When I feed them I hide behind the sterile nature of the packaging- I try not to think of what these animals are and where they came from. I totally realise that I am a big bleeding heart/ a pinko vegetarian, but, to feed LIVE creatures to an animal- especially when they have NO chance of escape- can’t do it. Makes me a little sick thinking about it. 
I wonder if this makes me hypocritical- frozen and packaged is ok but warm and live is not? And the people who wrote in about the crickets- why is it that I have no problem feeing them to my beadies? Is it just because they are not furry? I think I have to go lie down- my head hurts!


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## caustichumor (Apr 29, 2009)

That would have to be one of the tamest live-feeding videos I have ever seen from You-tube.... I remember watching a video of a bunch of morons feeding a live goat to their retic....


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## Jungletrans (Apr 29, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> That would have to be one of the tamest live-feeding videos I have ever seen from You-tube.... I remember watching a video of a bunch of morons feeding a live goat to their retic....



l saw that one , l felt sorry for the goat , the snake swallowing those horns but not the crackheads doing it .:evil:


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## Hooglabah (Apr 29, 2009)

ashleys said:


> isnt it cheaper to breed your own mice and feed them to your snake I'm new tho i didnt no it was illegal to live feed but i havent as I dont have a snake


 
its only cheaper if the cost of buying the frozen mice exceeds what it costs to breed. 
in other words if you have a large number of snakes.


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## Earthling (Apr 29, 2009)

Elise said:


> don't have an issue with feeding insects to lizards... only feeding live mice/rats to snakes... it would be ok if the mice didn't have the brain to attack back...


It sounds your equating inteligence with having a brain big enough to attack back. If this is correct have you seen what a cricket does to a beadie overnight? They will start eating the beardie....is that attacking or hunger? Either way they have the inteligence to only do it at night......


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## Hooglabah (Apr 29, 2009)

LauraM said:


> yeah thats why some of us get enjoyment from killing each other... .....thing is the bigger the animal the more people that dont like to kill it .... how many people squash ants and crickets, but when it comes to bigger animals like mice, cats and dogs its a big NO NO. You cant help it if some idiots feed live mice, its a personal choice and i believe its a stupid one not just because they can hurt the reptile, but why make a mouse sufer when you can euthanize.


 
its the cute and cuddly factor your average joe or jane doesnt wanna see the cute little mousey get killed.
personally i think all animals feel pain just as much as each other all that changes is the level of comprehension. i.e. if you rip of a crickets legs it will hurt him just as much as it would if you tore off a cats leg however the cat will have a far greater understanding of whats going on. (as a side the cat wont grow its legs back either). If you are going to kill one it needs to be a quick and clean as possible thats my philosiphy while hunting. dont shoot unless you are 100% positive you can kill the animal in one shot no pain.

as for live feeding i did when i first started agian like a others have said i had absolutly no idea the risks i was putting my snakes in. i havent done it since i found out.


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## Slyther83 (Apr 29, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> I think you are failing to understand what some are saying here ...I myself fully understand the live feed debate on an instinct level...and all though I feel for the rodent ,I do love the thrill feeling of watching a WILD reptile hit its prey ...BUT this is about reptiles kept as pets ,not in a wild enviroment, but a man made CONTROLLED one ..thus being the issue of feeding live .We have all had experiences where our snake might not eat at the time of giving it the rodent ,so as most do leave it in there and the snake will usually eat it over night (this is a risk with live due to bad grip and get a bite) But there are times where the snake wont eat it and it has to be removed ...under a live feed this could end in detrimental circumstances for the snake ...(in the wild ,if a snake doesnt want to eat ,its not in a situation where a rodent can attack it ,in captivity the rat cant get away so will attack , before being attacked )THIS was the point made by most that have posted .


 

I think I am failing to understand because what you said has nothing to do with the video the original poster is using to argue their point, where the snake immediately takes the mouse. If the snake were to not take the mouse, the mouse should be placed in a small container and another attempt of feeding should be made the next day, IMO. I still don't see what that has to do with the argument of feeding live being bad, its the way you go about handling that particular situation.


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## discomat (Apr 29, 2009)

this is a difficult issue, because you dont know when to draw the line. you can buy feeder fish, feeder yabbies, feeder crickets etc and it's ok but feeder mice is "cruel". I think the cuter the animal the more we feel "bad" about it which is only human nature. for example feeding a rabbit to a snake would be harder than feeding a cricket to a lizard. also live prey can do some serious damage to your snakes.


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## discomat (Apr 29, 2009)

there is a video on youtube that everyone should see. some people force a live chick into the mouth of a snake while it is swallowing a rat, you can see the bird crying for help it hasn't been constricted at all just thrown in the mouth, the camera watches the chick move through the body of the snake you can still see it kicking through the skin. apparently it was an "important college study" but i cant see what they were studying. plus the chick would have done some damage to the snakes insides for sure. 

go to youtube, type in snake feed live chick or something and watch it and tell me what you think please.


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## cris (Apr 29, 2009)

discomat said:


> there is a video on youtube that everyone should see. some people force a live chick into the mouth of a snake while it is swallowing a rat, you can see the bird crying for help it hasn't been constricted at all just thrown in the mouth, the camera watches the chick move through the body of the snake you can still see it kicking through the skin. apparently it was an "important college study" but i cant see what they were studying. plus the chick would have done some damage to the snakes insides for sure.
> 
> go to youtube, type in snake feed live chick or something and watch it and tell me what you think please.



Sounds terrible, was the chick hot? Seriously though i would suggest not watching that video, its nothing but intentional animal cruelty.


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## hallie (Apr 29, 2009)

discomat said:


> there is a video on youtube that everyone should see. some people force a live chick into the mouth of a snake while it is swallowing a rat, you can see the bird crying for help it hasn't been constricted at all just thrown in the mouth, the camera watches the chick move through the body of the snake you can still see it kicking through the skin. apparently it was an "important college study" but i cant see what they were studying. plus the chick would have done some damage to the snakes insides for sure.
> 
> go to youtube, type in snake feed live chick or something and watch it and tell me what you think please.


 
Not really intrerested in seeing that....

I dont see what important information could be gained from doing that.
Humans as a species have done terrible things to the animals we share the planet with, but thats another topic.

The more hits these vids get the more get posted...
i dont agree with unnecessary live feeding...


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## discomat (Apr 29, 2009)

the chicken is perfectly healthy and alive. I cant understand how this isn't animal cruelty and illegal, I fail to see how a college/university can condone this. these people should be fined. If you see the video its cruelty to the baby chick but also put the snakes life in danger due to the animal kicking inside the snakes body. It is horrible to watch but if you can watch it do so and leave a negative comment. or report the video and if enough people do it will be removed


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## Zoltag (Apr 29, 2009)

I always figured that our problem with live feeding is that people are a) self-aware and b) have been domesticated for such a long time. This is, of course, aside from the obvious issue of prey animals injuring or even killing reptiles.

Honestly, how many people have raised, killed and butchered their own animals for food? (and not snake food, but for your own table) - Now think about how many people living in the suburbs and inner cities that would have done the same...

I think that most people are against so-called inhumane deaths for animals like mice, rabbits, cats and dogs partly due to our own self-aware nature - We have a unique ability to put ourselves into other animals positions and imagine what they must be feeling - and partly due to the fact we keep these animals as pets and most people see these animals as pets first and foremost. 

I think people typically dont have issues feeding fish and invertebrates live as they are alien to our way of thinking - We cant imagine ourselves in their position, because they dont have bodies that are even remotely similar to ours and show no sign of intelligence or sentience.


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## Noongato (Apr 29, 2009)

If my snakes ate a rat/mouse the same way a beardie eats crickets, id totally feed live. Its a short sweet death of being chewed up into a pulp, rather than being slowly suffocated.
But yeah, unless the rodent has some way to escape its not fair. It would be the same if you were thrown into a arena with a very hungry tiger. Be better if you were thrown into a forest with a tiger and had a chance to run away. Even if you still lost....

I cant see many aps members doing it, as we obviously care about our animals enough to sit on a forum. But the majority of people out there are only interested in keeping 2 animals. A pitbull and a snake. Simply to have it kill.


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## redbellybite (Apr 29, 2009)

Slyther, regardless if you planned on taking it out had the snake not attacked the rat at the time ,what the hell would you do if the snake had attacked only not quite the right way and the rat was able to inflict a good bite on the snake whilst coiled around the rodent?mmmm ya gonna try and get the rat off the snake? by uncoiling and taking it from the mouth? or you gonna wait till the rat dies and is eaten before you see what damage is done? .....


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## jezzabel (Apr 29, 2009)

gpoleweski said:


> I don't know about other people bt if a fly or a cockroach is being a nuisance(sp?) I'll pick it up or catch it gently in a tissue and let it go outside...Chances are it'll come back in, but I just think that it's not fair to kill another animal for absolutley no reason. A fly comes into your house, it's not supid fly, it's fly who flew into your house because you're coooking something nice.


 
Yay- I'm not the only one! :lol:


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## pinkmus (Apr 29, 2009)

i have seen a much worse vid on youtube when I was searching for monitor vids. Now I presume monitors do not need to be fed LIVE rodents as from what I've heard they feed readily on dead stuff and meat?(I dont keep any monitors so Im not sure) This guy actually feeds live rats and these are killed slowly by the monitor ... find this vid much worse than any snake feeding ones. Seriously I couldnt stand this vid... EDIT: Don't watch it if you cant stand the poor things screaming....I hope its not too disturbing.. 

[video=youtube;6ZeF-J6bUZE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZeF-J6bUZE[/video]


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## serpenttongue (Apr 29, 2009)

pinkmus said:


> . Now I presume monitors do not need to be fed LIVE rodents as from what I've heard they feed readily on dead stuff and meat?


 
Indeed you are correct, pinkmus. Monitors happily feed on dead prey. Throwing a live rodent to a monitor, such as in the video you posted, is only done so the owner can show off how his monitor kills a 'lesser' species. Nothing more.

These types of people lack decency, sympathy, humanity and a conscience.


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## cris (Apr 29, 2009)

pinkmus said:


> i have seen a much worse vid on youtube when I was searching for monitor vids. Now I presume monitors do not need to be fed LIVE rodents as from what I've heard they feed readily on dead stuff and meat?(I dont keep any monitors so Im not sure) This guy actually feeds live rats and these are killed slowly by the monitor ... find this vid much worse than any snake feeding ones. Seriously I couldnt stand this vid... EDIT: Don't watch it if you cant stand the poor things screaming....I hope its not too disturbing..
> 
> YouTube - Monitors eating rats



I didnt watch much but the monitors looked like they were cool, if they were at proper temerature they would kill the rat very quickly as seen in this clip, as you point out they will normally eat dead food. Is it really cruel if the prey dies as quick or quicker than if killed by a human?

[video=youtube;UfamlUXvUCA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfamlUXvUCA[/video]


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## DDALDD (Apr 29, 2009)

TerryW said:


> There is no proof of this genetic link. Are people murderers and serial assaulters when they are born? Or do their upbringing meld them into it?



It's a little off topic but my understanding, based on the limited amount of reading I've done on the subject, is that sociopaths are often born that way and start showing the signs at very early ages. 



Slyther83 said:


> We're keeping animals as pets who would realistically much more enjoy their lives if they were in the wild.



Curiously, how does one define a snake enjoying it's life? I'd imagine that a life in the wild is considerable more stressful than a captive one and snakes are basic animals with basic needs, meet those needs and it's "happy". It's just a side point that I find interesting.

Guys, please stop posting the videos. You can make your point with words just as well.


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## Pythons Rule (Apr 29, 2009)

god that is terrible with the rat and the monitor why would ya? its discusting.


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## thebraddles (Apr 29, 2009)

dave8208 said:


> so i suppose all you lizard keepers will euthenise your crickets before you feed them to your pet ?????
> or dont insects count as a living animal......?




Niiice..good call mate.


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## licky (Apr 29, 2009)

IMO in the wild a snake will eat when it is hungry. Now taking that into account, the snake ISNT gunna muck around with its food, meaning its gunna get a good grip, making the chance of any conflict minimal. you see it with alot of predators, the kill is amost always quick.
completely differnt with captive animals. A mouse in captivity wont know what a predator is, other way round in the wild.

Just a question but would i be right in saying that a hatchy would be a more aggressive feeder then and an adult ?(captives)

I think that captive snakes somewhere along the lines can tell that the food that they kept getting given IS dead, which is why they dont spend so much time constricting


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## elapid66 (Apr 29, 2009)

killing things is fun people makes me feel like a big man mmm big man


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## mysnakesau (Apr 29, 2009)

I haven't read any of the posts yet but must admit I have had to use live feedings in the past. I sold a hatchling carpet python well established feeding on thawed fuzzy mice. He was my best feeder. When I sold him, he was returned to me 2 or 3 weeks later. The buyer decided he was scared of the baby snake and no longer wanted him. He refused to eat for the next 6 weeks. I was devestated, wondering what had happened to turn him like that. I then decided to try a live hopper mouse to see if it can trigger a response. It worked a treat. I couldn't believe my eyes but he pounced on it immediately. I hated doing it to the poor little mouse but I couldn't wipe the grin off my face that snake finally started eating. Every week afterwards I attempted thawed mouse, not a chance. I gave him the livie - snapped it up. I tried following through with a dead but he wouldn't take it. Four weeks he took them then on the 5th week I put a live mouse in, he looked at it, looked at it and turned away. My heart sunk, but just an off chance decided to thaw out a dead one. *HE ATE IT*. Go figure, I really don't know what was up with this little guy but he then started eating thawed food and snapping it up like a hungry snake.

But then I sold him to a fella in Victoria. Last time I heard he was assist feeding her because she was refusing  I was so disappointed to hear that. I might just drop a PM to see how she's doing now.

I have used he and she here, to me everything is he or she, but I have found out its a girl.


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## Mle00 (Apr 29, 2009)

sorry to drag on a long post but are we trying to justify a rats death by saying it doesnt suffer slowly freezing to death, burning its lungs and suffocating or does not feel terrified if a human bashes it against a wall or with anything solid? ..rats have instincts, snakes are natural predators, some snakes are stubborn and eat live, the way in which a rat dies is irrelevent - humanely, naturally or slowly and ethically....so glad i keep lizards!

I'd also place faith in a snake doing a quicker cleaner job on a rat than me squeelin and cringing all the way!


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## serpenttongue (Apr 29, 2009)

Mysnakesau, there's nothing worse than selling an animal that thrived in your care, only to find out it's worse off in someone elses care. Sometimes it's best to hang on to animals that are happy where they are, just for their sake.


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## mysnakesau (Apr 30, 2009)

How right is that Serp  I PM'd the guy who has her and she still isn't eating properly. But she is with an experienced snake keeper. He said she eats occasionally but he isn't concerned with her. Eats occasionally.

I am still disappointed to hear that. When I first sold her, she was going to someone who never had snakes before so I made sure I chose a strong feeder. Once I got her started again, every week she ate without a fuss. Ate like her usually champion self. I was going to keep her, even gave her a name, but somebody responded to my ad before I pulled it down. I don't like letting ppl down so let her go. I thought she'd be ok. She probably is. I just prefer to hear they are eating better than that.


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## AlexN (Apr 30, 2009)

I dont know if this has already been said, but im going to say it anyway... 

Most of what I've read so far indicates people in general dont like feeding live mice to snakes because its cruel/inhumane etc.. Do snakes not eat mice live in the wild?? Is it not inhumane that we sit by in the knowing that mice are being eaten on a daily basis in the wild by snakes, without trying to stop the the snakes from feeding on them.. Or would that be inhumane by starving the snakes of their natural food source? Who knows.. 

Is it also not inhumane to put 3 or 4 crickets into a 30L tub with a bearded dragon? Knowing full well that the dragon is going to end the crickets life, or do our morals only apply to certain animals... 

Fact of the matter is this. Animals eat other animals. The beardies eat crickets, birds eat beardies, crocs eat birds etc etc.. 

Think about this.. We, Humans are at the top of the food chain... We eat everything... cows, sheep, crocs, pigs, birds etc.. Here we are eating every living animal on the planet should we so desire, yet turning up our nose saying its inhumane to let a snake eat a live mouse... 

Harden up... Such is life.


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## elapid66 (Apr 30, 2009)

i like watching elapids chase mice around there enclosures its good fun hehe


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## fidzy (Apr 30, 2009)

AlexN said:


> I dont know if this has already been said, but im going to say it anyway...
> 
> Most of what I've read so far indicates people in general dont like feeding live mice to snakes because its cruel/inhumane etc.. Do snakes not eat mice live in the wild?? Is it not inhumane that we sit by in the knowing that mice are being eaten on a daily basis in the wild by snakes, without trying to stop the the snakes from feeding on them.. Or would that be inhumane by starving the snakes of their natural food source? Who knows..
> 
> ...




some of your statements are true and some are very stupid imo. in the wild mice can escape, in a reptile cage they cant. this has been said many times in this thread and no need for me to say it again.


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## TerryW (May 1, 2009)

AlexN said:


> Most of what I've read so far indicates people in general dont like feeding live mice to snakes because its cruel/inhumane etc.. Do snakes not eat mice live in the wild??



Yes, but in entirely different circumstances that are beyond our control. With feeding live you have a choice, and you're also introducing an animal that has had no exposure in the wild into an enclosure where it has zero chance of escape.



> Is it not inhumane that we sit by in the knowing that mice are being eaten on a daily basis in the wild by snakes, without trying to stop the the snakes from feeding on them.. Or would that be inhumane by starving the snakes of their natural food source? Who knows..


Very stupid reasoning.



> Is it also not inhumane to put 3 or 4 crickets into a 30L tub with a bearded dragon? Knowing full well that the dragon is going to end the crickets life, or do our morals only apply to certain animals...


Do crickets feel fear, anxiety and pain? Are they mentally capable enough?



> Fact of the matter is this. Animals eat other animals. The beardies eat crickets, birds eat beardies, crocs eat birds etc etc..


That doesn't have anything to do with it. You're missing the point entirely.



> Think about this.. We, Humans are at the top of the food chain... We eat everything... cows, sheep, crocs, pigs, birds etc.. Here we are eating every living animal on the planet should we so desire, yet turning up our nose saying its inhumane to let a snake eat a live mouse...


What makes us different from the rest of the animal kingdom? We have morals, we are intelligent enough to comprehend the consequences of our actions. Most importantly, we make rational decisions instead of relying on our instincts alone. But if you know anyone who eats a cow, sheep, croc, pig or bird live, please let me know.

In fact, I don't see how this has any relevance since the criticism here is on _live_ feeding, not the eating of other animals.



> Harden up... Such is life.


With that attitude, perhaps we should ignore every inhumane thing we do not only to other animals, but to each other? When we have the choice of minimising cruelty, then we should. Otherwise, we are really no better than the rest of the animal kingdom.


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## TerryW (May 1, 2009)

Mle00 said:


> sorry to drag on a long post but are we trying to justify a rats death by saying it doesnt suffer slowly freezing to death, burning its lungs and suffocating or does not feel terrified if a human bashes it against a wall or with anything solid?



Who freezes them to death? And what on earth do you mean by burning of lungs? If a human bashes its head in, it will have no time to be terrified because it will be killed after the first blow.



> the way in which a rat dies is irrelevent - humanely, naturally or slowly and ethically....so glad i keep lizards!



No it isn't. It is in fact very relevant because the entire argument against live feeding surrounds it. How you kill something says a lot about your humanity and character... and for some reason, I'd be worried if someone was gloating about killing a rat very violently and inhumanely as opposed to someone who does it instantly.

For you to say that how the animal dies is irrelevant further highlights the indifference and ignorance of some people. Whatever action we do, we have to take into account what it does and the intention behind it.


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## Carpetpythons (May 1, 2009)

It has nothing to do with your character, If its the only way to get hatchlings feeding then you do it. If its the only way to get stubborn snakes feeding then you do it. I love seeing all these humanitarians standing up for the animals rights, I have seen bashings of rats over the head go wrong! I have seen CO2 gas run out in the middle of a euthenasia session. Its just this, people make the rules and it is normally sensitivity based. Rats have unique alarm calls, I have observed this myself! Mammals are evolved enough to realise when Oxygen is depleting in their environment, I have seen how their stress levels escalate when being gassed. You are kidding yourselves if you think they dont stress.


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## Slyther83 (May 1, 2009)

TerryW said:


> Yes, but in entirely different circumstances that are beyond our control. With feeding live you have a choice, and you're also introducing an animal that has had no exposure in the wild into an enclosure where it has zero chance of escape.
> 
> Very stupid reasoning.
> 
> ...


 
TerryW the reality of it is that we are the only species on the planet who "humanely" kills it's own food. That is not how nature is, and just because we have some type of bad feelings toward it and want to label it as "cruel" doesn't make it wrong. You should see the cramped "lifestyle" most livestock has before it is shot in the head with a piston or stunned with an electric tazer before their throats are cut. Some people just don't know how to accept reality for what it is, and think they can go through life handling everything with a pair of kid gloves. You can sit here and argue against nature until you're blue in the face, you're entitled to your own nonsensical opinions. Snakes have been around far longer than we have, and have been eating live the entire time.

People keeping carnivorous pets and standing on a soapbox complaining about live feeding is comical. How sad it is that the vast majority of human nature leans toward manipulating other forms of life to act as we think they should.


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## redbellybite (May 1, 2009)

elapid66 said:


> i like watching elapids chase mice around there enclosures its good fun hehe


 elapids probably have less a chance of being gnawed at ...because they only got to bite the rodent once and its lights out ,even if they are not hungry enough to feed on it ...pinkys I have no problems with live trying to get hatchies to eat ..pinkies can not cause the damage that a set of chompers can ...my issue isnt due to the rodent feeling the stress or anxiety,death is inevitable,you have not bought the mouse/rat for a pet ,its food ..BUT your python is a pet and you do whats best to keep your python safe ,feeding live is not a safe option ...if your snake is a hard feeder at least stun the rat /mouse before atempting to feed ,its still warm and body movements are still happening but the rodent is not with it and so wont be able to inflict bites ..


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## cris (May 1, 2009)

fidzy said:


> some of your statements are true and some are very stupid imo. in the wild mice can escape, in a reptile cage they cant. this has been said many times in this thread and no need for me to say it again.



What if these wild mice are down a burrow and a predator comes down the entrance, how would they escape?


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## Colin (May 1, 2009)

When I first started keeping pythons in 1990 there wasnt much information around at that time and a lot of blokes used to feed live mice. Luckily after some advice from experienced keepers from the AHS I started knocking them on the head before I fed them. Mice and rats can do a lot of damage to your pet snake if fed live and the snake doesnt get them by the head. 

From then onwards I always killed rodents immediately before feeding and fed while still warm. These days I only feed thawed items as I dont breed rodents anymore and just buy frozen. 

I think the main reason people feed live rodents to snakes is to show off in front of their loser mates with some life and death brutal power struggle. Yes it may go on in the wild and is just nature's food chain, but snakes in captivity are not in a wild situation and are in your care. So some consideration must be made for their well being and also for the food item.


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## GTsteve (May 1, 2009)

In all of the clips I watched on youtube after reading this thread and watching the imbedded footage, every single animal barring the chick fought back. Every single snake or monitor got bitten on the nose, head or neck and in the case of the Retic on the rabbit the footage was cut off after the idiot said twice "You can't let it bite her tail dude". Seems to me this is just a stupid idea full stop, except perhaps in the case of pinkies to get hatchies feeding as stated above as it looked like every animal involved copped damage.


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## grimbeny (May 1, 2009)

Jsm88 said:


> You gotta remember, we're just animals too


 
So are sponges.


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## notechistiger (May 1, 2009)

In general, I have no problems with live feeding, but that's not to say that I do it. To me, snakes are "higher" then mice. Snakes come before mice. But that is purely my preference. The only problem I have with live feeding is that the rodent (or chick, etc.) can injure the reptile (again, my "reptiles be better then rodents" mentality ). But I can liken that to my jack russell catching the mouse that's currently taking residence in my pantry. The mouse can't escape, and I guarantee you, the dog will catch it. Am I going to let me kill it? Heck yeah. He'll do it better and more efficiently than what I ever could.

What exactly was the point of making this thread? People are going to live feed _no matter_ how much of a fuss you kick up about it. You're not going to change it. This will never be a perfect world, and bad things will always happen. So what's the point in creating a controversial thread on an already controversial website? You know most people will have the same mentality as you do. Are you wanting to try and push that mentality on those that do not?

As I said, I don't have a problem with live feeding. However, I know when it's okay and when it's not. I know that introducing an adult rat into my spotted's enclosure will likely result in her injury. And yet, I know that if my coastal stopped feeding and refused thawed food, I wouldn't hesitate in giving him a live mouse. I'm also intelligent enough not to post clips on youtube if I were to


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## discomat (May 1, 2009)

when you think about it, humans do pretty much the same thing as "live feeding". animals are locked up so that they cannot excape until they are killed to be eaten. By the same logic it is also inhumane to farm animals and we should only be allowed to "hunt" wild animals for food. so those who say its inhumane should not eat farmed product if they wanna stand by what they say in this forum. If my snake only ate live prey I would feed it live rather than let it die.

having said that I have never fed my snake live prey and dont intend to because of the safety of my snake and the fact it is unnessacery and probably a better death for the prey if they are killed "humanly".

[video=youtube;encZArh2wrY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=encZArh2wrY[/video]

this is just wrong. WARNING! VIDEO IS A COLLEGE EXPERIMENT OF SOME SORT AND IS VERY DISTURBING


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## Colin (May 1, 2009)

notechistiger said:


> What exactly was the point of making this thread? People are going to live feed _no matter_ how much of a fuss you kick up about it. You're not going to change it.



I would guess the point of the thread was education to people not to feed live rodents to their reptiles. maybe it wont change the attitudes of the few who think its ok.. but that doesnt mean that people should not still try. 

Have you ever seen the damage that a live rodent can do to a python? Well have a look at this and maybe it will change your mind about feeding live. Its very graphic and yes its not an aussie snake but the same thing can happen to any python under these circumstances.


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## barbed_wire_dove (May 1, 2009)

Earthling said:


> Not that long ago it was okay to take pleasure in killing something....its only a modern ethical trait to say oooo...baaaaad person. Most humans now buy their dead animal from Woolies and Coles wrapped in plastic on a little foam tray with special absorbent plastic that soaks up all the bloooooood. Far removed from killing an animal.
> You may find genetically we may have genes that make many humans predisposed to get pleasure from killing something. How many kids see a bug and want to kill it? Wheres that from? It would certainly be a good trait for a race that eats animals.
> So...its the way humans are....only some of us learn that we have a choice and even less make a choice.




very well said


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## notechistiger (May 1, 2009)

Colin said:


> Have you ever seen the damage that a live rodent can do to a python? Well have a look at this and maybe it will change your mind about feeding live. Its very graphic and yes its not an aussie snake but the same thing can happen to any python under these circumstances.



As I matter of fact, I have. If you'll notice, I specifically said that the only problem I have with live feeding is that it can injure the snake. I also never said that I condone or advocate it. My opinion is my opinion and _only_ my opinion. What people do is none of my business, as long as it doesn't oppose on my views.


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## Chris1 (May 1, 2009)

geebus, that pic is horrid,...!!

i guess some people think its 'cool' to feed snakes live food, mine are more than happy with dead and thats what i'll stick with,...

i even feel bad for crickets that teh geckos grab and drop and quickly squish them with a tissue,...


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## Colin (May 1, 2009)

Chris1 said:


> geebus, that pic is horrid,...!!
> i guess some people think its 'cool' to feed snakes live food, mine are more than happy with dead and thats what i'll stick with,...



sure is chris.. how many times have you seen a python miss the head of a dead mouse and grab it mid body? Its very common especially if you feed by holding the tail of the rodent when offering it.. instead of using tongs. It doesnt take much for a a python to miss the head of a live rodent either and grab it mid body with its mouth and teeth free to bite the snake... 

Who in their right mind would want to risk the safety of their snakes by feeding live? I'm not even going to go into the argument about it being cruel etc for the rodent. That may be so.. but the main concern of mine is my snakes welfare and feeding live is a risk to them thats unecessary to take. I dont have any problem feeding freshly killed rodents.. thats fine. but if the prey can bite back and injure the snake then thats a risk Im not prepared to take.


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## caustichumor (May 1, 2009)

If they are able to take dead prey then they should be fed dead prey, I feed fresh killed rodents, So I bash quite a few small mammals to death every month. That being said, I don't like other people to bash baby fur seals to death, so maybe hypocrisy is a part of keeping these carnivorous animals as pets.... But when I swing a rat it will die in an instant, and will not have a chance to harm the animals in my care....


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## dailyskin (May 1, 2009)

That picture is so sad  It is really upsetting.

When I feed my lizard insects, I often sort of squish them with my tweezers, that kills them straight away. But even if I don't, Atticus gets them SO quickly, there isn't a second for them to work out what is happening!

For the record, I think much of the meat killing done for human consumption is pretty awful too. I eat a lot of meat at the moment (trying for a baby) but I only EVER buy meat that is free range and killed on-site.


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## daniel1234 (May 1, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> Jungle ,I feed live like that too...the live that most of us are focused on is the dropping in a fully totally with is rat/mouse that has all its bearings and instincts in overload due to it knowing its been put in danger ...rodents arent stupid ,they know danger ...


 
I have only read up to here but my two cents:
I draw the line at flies and ants, but I will take other insects and spiders outside for a second chance.
As RBB keeps saying, wild snakes are in control, that is perhaps the defining difference.
Yes is is perfectly natural for snakes to eat live food but not in a box with a heat lamp and glass doors.

My first rat that I killed I broke it's back and had to retrieve it from under a bench it crawled under and wack it at least twice more before the "stupid brainless critter died". Meanwhile the other rat I had pegged for death row come next feed, hid under it's bowl and acted very weird when I came near. She also freaked out over seeing sparks from my grinder. Stupid rat!?

At the end of the day I care little for the rat being killed by the snake (although that rat did become breeding stock). It is the welfare of the snake I am concerned about. I just don't want to risk holes in my snakes, so I don't encourage live feeds.


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## redbellybite (May 1, 2009)

Colin said:


> I would guess the point of the thread was education to people not to feed live rodents to their reptiles. maybe it wont change the attitudes of the few who think its ok.. but that doesnt mean that people should not still try.
> 
> Have you ever seen the damage that a live rodent can do to a python? Well have a look at this and maybe it will change your mind about feeding live. Its very graphic and yes its not an aussie snake but the same thing can happen to any python under these circumstances.


 Thankyou colin that is the point that alot of us are trying to get through some of the more blas'e(blarzay) people on here ...we are aware that wild snakes catch live food and some fussy eaters need that little extra boost ..but most feed quite happily on thawed food or fresh killed....this picture should be enough to discourage anyone that is seriously into reptiles ,the reason why you dont drop in live food ...anyone still disputing it ..in all honesty I feel for your snakes.


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## elapid66 (May 1, 2009)

at the end of the day if you feed you python live food which by the way i dont because i dont have any pythons you never walk away and never ever leave it in with the snake over night . thats my hot tip for the day bye now


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