# Purebred Dogs



## Amelia (Aug 4, 2013)

This thread is a spin off RIP Merle posted by Fay. Here we can discuss the problems facing dogs. 

Breeding for certain characteristics is resulting in unhealthy animals, it seems like the governing bodies do their best to uphold these characteristics & to adhere to the breed standards no matter the consequences.

I was recently looking into breed requirements.

According to their Australian standard, the British Bulldogs head should be very large, the larger the better. In essence the more C sections your vet has to perform, the better.

The Dalmatians ground colour should be pure white, so breed for deafness & you've got yourself a champion, this goes for Bully's too.

The Pugs muzzle should be relatively short, even if permitting a longer one would mean being able to control their body temperature & breathe normally.

Ridgebacks need a ridge, although without it dermoid sinus could be eliminated.

Certain breeds like Shar Peis, Bloodhounds etc should have loose skin, even if without the excessive skin ectropion could be weeded out.

There has been some positive change within the dog showing world recently, a change in some breeds requirements has been implemented after vet checks were introduced to the UKC, for example Pekingese should have a nose that isn't too short (though still too short in my opinion) now instead of having virtually no face. 

Education is key in pushing for change. If the dog show world doesn't reward it, breeders won't breed for it.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 4, 2013)

Unfortunately those that judge are normally the once breeding these bad traits, look at German shepherds and there bad hips etc compared to ww2 photos of these animals


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 4, 2013)

This is just something people need to be aware of. Problems like neuro in snakes should not be bred even if the offspring are stunners, nobody wants to buy a defective animal. 

I don't doubt advanced snake breeders are making the correct choices, but are the amateur breeders with little understanding knowingly breeding in bad traits?


Rick


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## Amelia (Aug 4, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> This is just something people need to be aware of. Problems like neuro in snakes should not be bred even if the offspring are stunners, nobody wants to buy a defective animal.
> 
> I don't doubt advanced snake breeders are making the correct choices, but are the amateur breeders with little understanding knowingly breeding in bad traits?
> 
> ...



Genetics & scientific fact is something people in the reptile community seem more open to learning about & more importantly accepting than those in the dog showing community where it's definitely more about prestige & bragging rights. Neuro problems get brought up & openly discussed, breeders knowledge gets challenged. There is a lack of this where dogs are concerned.


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## Rogue5861 (Aug 4, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Genetics & scientific fact is something people in the reptile community seem more open to learning about & more importantly accepting than those in the dog showing community where it's definitely more about prestige & bragging rights. Neuro problems get brought up & openly discussed, breeders knowledge gets challenged. There is a lack of this where dogs are concerned.



Totally agree. I may be a touchy subject but it is something anyone planning to breed knows and understand.


Rick


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## Amelia (Aug 4, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> Unfortunately those that judge are normally the once breeding these bad traits, look at German shepherds and there bad hips etc compared to ww2 photos of these animals



'Kangaroo hocks' in Shepherds are another one to add to the list but thankfully this is more widely known than a lot of other negative traits in dog breeds. German Shepherds are one of the fifteen high profile breeds being focused on by the UKC due to public pressure.


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## Newhere (Aug 4, 2013)

Its the same as the people breeding jaguar pythons with neurological problems, its all about the money and shallow people wanting a "pretty" animal. Imagine how many munted deformed animals are bred just so we can have a slightly less munted animal that looks good. Anyone breeding and selling these creatures needs a decent kick in the head in my opinion. I own a cross breed dog that is the most loving and loyal animal I have ever come across in my life and I wouldn't swap her for a million dollars. Sadly its those people that only care what the animal looks like are usually the ones that end up neglecting the poor things and not putting the proper thought in to what it takes to raise and look after an animal. Its not just the breeders its also the shallow dimwits that want a 'pretty" pet that create the problem. I've seen lots of people here with those jags and I think if you are willing to buy a potentially terminally ill animal just because it looks good then you are just as sick as the people that breed them.


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## saintanger (Aug 4, 2013)

i own a cross breed dog, she is the most loyal and smart dog i have ever owned and also very healthy. she is a border collie cross red cattle cross blue cattle cross husky. 

my pure bred chihuahua who i rescued from death row has medial patella luxation in her knee caps (was diagnosed wen she was 2 yrs old) and is getting worse with age, and also her wind pipe is so narrow and small she can not be walked on lead to collar as she can't breath so she can only be walk with a harness.

my 2 pure bred am staff, have had multiple tests for sight, hearing, hips, joints ect and have never had a problem and neither has any of their pups.

its a shame some people only think about money wen it comes to their animals, i rather a healthy pet than a sick one just to make a bit of cash.


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## Amelia (Aug 5, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Sadly its those people that only care what the animal looks like are usually the ones that end up neglecting the poor things and not putting the proper thought in to what it takes to raise and look after an animal.
> 
> Its not just the breeders its also the shallow dimwits that want a 'pretty" pet that create the problem. I've seen lots of people here with those jags and I think if you are willing to buy a potentially terminally ill animal just because it looks good then you are just as sick as the people that breed them.



I'm not for a second implying that purebred dog owners don't love & care for their animals just the same & I have to disagree with your last statement, a lot of people have been fooled into thinking if they look for a reputable breeder they will receive a healthy animal, this is just not the case (with certain breeds more than others).

I was taught myself when I first started working with dogs that purebreds were superior, now through a lot of research & years spent working with them I know this not to be true but people looking for an animal to add to their home that suits their needs don't a lot of the time & will be taught otherwise by people they seek advice from. That's why I think it's important to discuss this more openly & make it known that if for example somebody wants to buy a merle coloured dog they are in turn propelling the market for this colour & increasing the likelihood of merle to merle matings so that breeders can produce all merle litters.


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## LaDeDah (Aug 5, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Its the same as the people breeding jaguar pythons with neurological problems, its all about the money and shallow people wanting a "pretty" animal. Imagine how many munted deformed animals are bred just so we can have a slightly less munted animal that looks good. Anyone breeding and selling these creatures needs a decent kick in the head in my opinion. I own a cross breed dog that is the most loving and loyal animal I have ever come across in my life and I wouldn't swap her for a million dollars. Sadly its those people that only care what the animal looks like are usually the ones that end up neglecting the poor things and not putting the proper thought in to what it takes to raise and look after an animal. Its not just the breeders its also the shallow dimwits that want a 'pretty" pet that create the problem. I've seen lots of people here with those jags and I think if you are willing to buy a potentially terminally ill animal just because it looks good then you are just as sick as the people that breed them.



No one would purchase a dog let alone pet if their not attracted by their looks ect. Pugs for example have been around for thousands of years and were used by the Chinese monks, as hand warmers, so I doubt they were breeding for showing and looks back then. I own a pug, and a miniature australian bulldog and I certainly don't think people who obtain an animal that is 'known' to have complications are shallow or in it for the money. Both set me back a few grand, both are desexed, and the amount I spend on vet bills is up and beyond! So people who obtain these animals are certainly not in it for the money. Both my dogs are going on 4 years and have never had 'breed specific' problems. If you own a reptile, I'm sure you chose him/her because of looks or personality. Yes I agree that breeding for looks where it causes the animal stress, pain is wrong, It doesn't mean with the right care for their breed that it is cruel to own one or "shallow and in it for the money" as you said. For example during summer we don't walk them, put them in a cool bath, put wet towels on the floor and I don't see anything wrong with that. You fall in love with them no matter their looks in the end I guess... Sorry if any of this is rood, merely stating my opinion!


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## Amelia (Aug 5, 2013)

Naomi said:


> No one would purchase a dog let alone pet if their not attracted by their looks ect. Pugs for example have been around for thousands of years and were used by the Chinese monks, as hand warmers, so I doubt they were breeding for showing and looks back then. I own a pug, and a miniature australian bulldog and I certainly don't think people who obtain an animal that is 'known' to have complications are shallow or in it for the money. Both set me back a few grand, both are desexed, and the amount I spend on vet bills is up and beyond! So people who obtain these animals are certainly not in it for the money. Both my dogs are going on 4 years and have never had 'breed specific' problems. If you own a reptile, I'm sure you chose him/her because of looks or personality. Yes I agree that breeding for looks where it causes the animal stress, pain is wrong, It doesn't mean with the right care for their breed that it is cruel to own one or "shallow and in it for the money" as you said. For example during summer we don't walk them, put them in a cool bath, put wet towels on the floor and I don't see anything wrong with that. You fall in love with them no matter their looks in the end I guess... Sorry if any of this is rood, merely stating my opinion!



Pugs being bred for hundreds of years doesn't really have a lot to do with their health concerns as of today, like many other breeds they were better off in the 1800's, they actually had muzzles, longer legs & their tails weren't double curled as they are today. How they look now is the result of selective breeding for exaggerated features that somehow became a trend amongst pug breeders, showers & buyers.

I do see something wrong with having to monitor an animals heat exposure purely because of how we've bred them. I also see something wrong with continuing to breed an animal with three different types of dwarfism, an animal that is knowingly predisposed to having brachycephalic obstructed airway syndrome, hemivertebrae, necrotizing meningoencephalitis, arachnoid cysts, entropion, fold Dermatitis, legg calve perthes disease & portosystemic shunts.

Even insurance companies & airlines know enough about the health of a Pug to inflate their prices & actually refuse the transport of a brachycephalic breed, think it's time the dog showers & breeders took note.


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## LaDeDah (Aug 6, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Pugs being bred for hundreds of years doesn't really have a lot to do with their health concerns as of today, like many other breeds they were better off in the 1800's, they actually had muzzles, longer legs & their tails weren't double curled as they are today. How they look now is the result of selective breeding for exaggerated features that somehow became a trend amongst pug breeders, showers & buyers.
> 
> I do see something wrong with having to monitor an animals heat exposure purely because of how we've bred them. I also see something wrong with continuing to breed an animal with three different types of dwarfism, an animal that is knowingly predisposed to having brachycephalic obstructed airway syndrome, hemivertebrae, necrotizing meningoencephalitis, arachnoid cysts, entropion, fold Dermatitis, legg calve perthes disease & portosystemic shunts.
> 
> Even insurance companies & airlines know enough about the health of a Pug to inflate their prices & actually refuse the transport of a brachycephalic breed, think it's time the dog showers & breeders took note.



Not sure what you mean by the insurance prices and sending them over in an aeroplane. Both our dogs are insured for the same cost as my neighbours border collie. Our MAB was flown over with no worries. It's not all dogs that have problems. Like I said 4 years later with out any breed specific injuries/problems...


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## Amelia (Aug 6, 2013)

Naomi, in Fay's original thread you wrote "You mentioned pugs, but I have never heard of problems with them due to breed specific traits? I know the King Charles often have problems due to their enlarged brains relative to their skull."

"Ah I get you now! Explains why my little one sounds like a truck when she sleeps!"

Judging from these comments it's clear to me that you know little about the Pugs health concerns & why they have them in the first place.

I've mentioned three different types of dwarfism (micromelic, achondroplasia, ateliosis), crowded dentition, fawn colouring being associated with skin problems, brachycephalic obstructed airway syndrome, hemivertebrae, necrotizing meningoencephalitis, arachnoid cysts, entropion, fold Dermatitis, legg calve perthes disease & portosystemic shunts. Feel free to google these conditions, I'll message you some with some more information regarding Pugs.


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## Klaery (Aug 6, 2013)

Friends of ours have pugs (one black and one fawn) and while they have the coolest little attitudes ever, boy do they have problems. One of the puppies they originally had promised to them died when a pup due to the head/brain size issue (not sure of the details). 

The fawn one has has an autoimmune skin desease that needs cream etc and he needed to have surgery to remove some of the damaged skin.

The black one has a liver issue that results in his body continually creating kidney stones. He is on a special low protein diet and has already had two operations to remove stones. They are now looking at further surgery to correct the issue (if they can find out how). The alternative would be that he is put down.

Both these dogs were from two different well respected breeders. The fawn one is only 3 and the black is less than 2 years old.


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## Amelia (Aug 6, 2013)

danielk said:


> Friends of ours have pugs (one black and one fawn) and while they have the coolest little attitudes ever, boy do they have problems. One of the puppies they originally had promised to them died when a pup due to the head/brain size issue (not sure of the details).
> 
> The fawn one has has an autoimmune skin desease that needs cream etc and he needed to have surgery to remove some of the damaged skin.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing this information Daniel, it's important that we realise buying from 'reputable breeders' makes no difference in the quality of animal we receive when the breed itself is infused with genetic problems.

We hear that certain dogs have problems but are rarely told why they occur in the first place & that they could be avoided with a change in breeding & showing practices.


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## Amelia (Aug 6, 2013)

These sort of breed specific issues seem more widely known in Europe. Here is a picture of some German bred Pugs, puts a smile on my face.


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## Flaviruthless (Aug 6, 2013)

Attachment invalid 

Good thread, these kinds of issues need to be discussed more. I find it strange that there are 'working lines' and 'show lines' and yet some people say that the 'show line' is as competent a worker as the 'working line'.


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## Amelia (Aug 6, 2013)

Flaviruthless said:


> Attachment invalid
> 
> Good thread, these kinds of issues need to be discussed more. I find it strange that there are 'working lines' and 'show lines' and yet some people say that the 'show line' is as competent a worker as the 'working line'.



Sorry, should be working now.

Funny isn't it? In my opinion until an animal has demonstrated its ability to work I wouldn't consider it a working dog, half these Borders you see prancing around the ring would probably overheat due to their excessive coats.

I generally prefer the 'working type' with a leaner physique & less coat to manage, I'm not saying these are of better breeding but I've found working dog breeders to be more open to out crossing, they don't breed for looks in other words. There is still a lot of inbreeding that goes on with working types too though.


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## borntobnude (Aug 6, 2013)

O/T ish 
I am at present looking for a Chihuahua x toy or miniature poodle , for my snake to eat , Daughter !!!!!!!!!! 

At this moment I am not even sure if they are available here yet , I am sure they are but how readily ???

Some people on here may remember that I am against most "mongrel "animals , but hey , my daughter wants one 
I don't know of health issues that are or may arise all I know of them is that there wil be $$$$$ involved


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## Amelia (Aug 6, 2013)

This little piece of reading is by 'Terrierman', it concerns Pugs & brachycephalic breeds alike.

"The difference is that so many Kennel Club breeds are bred for intentional defect and planned misery. This is is systematic and institutionalized animal abuse by the American Kennel Club and it is abetted by puppy peddlers and dog dealers who call themselves breeders, as well as their show ring sycophants who put their own desire for fifty-cent ribbons over the daily lives of the living animals to be found in their own homes.

Why do wolves, fox, dingoes, coyotes, and honest hunting dogs have long snouts? For the simple reason that short snouts are maladaptive. 

A dog with a short snout has no front-end eye protection when running in grass or weeds -- and yes, this is an issue for Pugs which often sustain serious injury because their eyes sit right at the "edge of the wedge" of their skulls with little to no orbit protection.

A dog with a short snout will almost always have teeth problems because the jaws have been shortened and now there is no place for the teeth and tongue to go.

A dog with a short snout will always always have a compromised sense of smell and may also have serious breathing problems if the dog's face is as short as that of a Pug's. The reason for this is that the nasal chambers of a flat-face dog are much smaller than those of a longer-snouted animal, and may also be crushed and twisted, obstructing the flow of air.

The bottom line is that Mother Nature prunes away its mistakes -- it does not give them a ribbon or try hard to make a lot more of them. And, as a consequence, in the world of natural dogs there is no canine that looks like a Pug! 

If you have a Pug, try to keep it comfortable and love it until it leaves this earth. It's physical problems are not of its own making, and the dog is without sin. But pledge to never get a dog like this again. Dogs deserve better!"


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## Woma_Wild (Aug 6, 2013)

Breeders breed what the judges want. Fortunately, not all countries follow the ANKC type standards.

A look back on dogs in the past will show you exactly what man has done to many breeds of dogs and cats. 

The persian cats in Uk have their noses pushed so far back into their skulls that the animal had adapted by breathing through it's mouth. 
What was once a stunning cat is now what I would call repulsive and extremely cruel.

The german shepherd has also suffered. Have a look at Uk GSD's - it's appalling. 

The ethical breeder will test their breeders prior to mating - poodles for blindness, chis and poms for patella issues, etc. Show dogs also have their teeth/jaws checked.- missing tooth means your dog cannot go in the ring. When buying from one of these breeders, your pet's parents have been tested and clear BUT as with any animal you buy, there is no guarantee that your pet will not get some other illness.

I purchased my GSD from a reputable breeder. From the onset, he was sick. After several weeks of testing, diet change, (and a LOT of vet bills)etc, he was diagnosed with having an allergy to meat and meat by products. 

He has great, solid hips though.


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## Amelia (Oct 7, 2013)

Flashy colours such as Harlequin & merle, misshapen heads & muzzles like those Bull terriers & bulldogs possess are not healthy characteristics, these sort of traits do nothing for your dog, they work against it. It might suit your persona to buy a french bulldog, a dachshund, a Dane or a Scotch Collie but animals were never suppose to have these freakish exaggerated characteristics, our dogs are being ruined & most of us are supporting it, whether we realise it or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is a great piece on how the American Cocker came to be.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/how-yanks-cocked-up-cocker.html


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## Leasdraco (Oct 8, 2013)

Very interesting read Amelia.
I am sad to see unhealthy traits in dogs still be seen as "desirable". That being said it is reassuring to see so many ethical breeders doing the right thing by their animals and customers by testing for hereditary illnesses. And one good thing about designer dogs( I still refer to them as mongrels) is that certain breeds benefit from being crossed,it slowly phasing out the weaknesses of both breeds for example pugs crossed with dogs that have normal noses will hopefully lead to a more healthy breed entirely


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## Amelia (Oct 10, 2013)

Leasdraco said:


> Very interesting read Amelia.
> I am sad to see unhealthy traits in dogs still be seen as "desirable". That being said it is reassuring to see so many ethical breeders doing the right thing by their animals and customers by testing for hereditary illnesses. And one good thing about designer dogs( I still refer to them as mongrels) is that certain breeds benefit from being crossed,it slowly phasing out the weaknesses of both breeds for example pugs crossed with dogs that have normal noses will hopefully lead to a more healthy breed entirely



All purebred dogs would benefit from being crossed, it's not as impossible to return a dog to it's 'desirable' phenotype once it's been crossed as most purebred snobs would have people believe.

A good example of this is the low uric acid Dalmatians being bred today that were originally crossed with Pointers, one of which competed at Crufts in 2011. It took a lot of hard work to get her there.

Fiona The Mongrel Purebred (aka What Will Crufts Think of Fiona?) « Dogs In Training

Leasdraco, you're right in saying that some of the breeds Pugs are being crossed with might be beneficial to them in bringing out the nose but tragically this has nothing to do with the Pugs own breed standard & won't affect how they're being bred within the kennel club circuit. It's very difficult to work to improve brachycephalic breed standards since their ailment is also their defining feature & unfortunately it's what makes them lovable in so many peoples eyes.


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## Leasdraco (Oct 10, 2013)

Hopefully the AKC will get with the times and encourage people to breed dogs for health rather than looks but that sounds like wishful thinking...


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## Amelia (Dec 28, 2013)

Introducing the 'munchkin'

http://struggling4sanity.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/munchkin_cat_by_wyvern_v-d54ovar.jpg

Peoples reaction to this breed of cat has emphasized for me how desensitized the general public is to deformities in dogs. When faced with a so called munchkin cat the usual reaction was a screwed up face even though their dog counterparts (dachshunds & other achondroplastic breeds) have the opposite effect.


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## Jazzz (Dec 28, 2013)

I think its pretty selfish to buy any kind of dog from a breeder or pet shop when 50% of dogs in shelters are euthanised. 

I have 2 gorgeous rescued mix breed dogs, a minature collie cross and a kelpie cross and i have never had a health concern in over 10 years. 

I would much rather save the life of a dog then opt out for a 'more aesthetically pleasing' purebred and support the massive over population problem we face.


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## Amelia (Dec 29, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I think its pretty selfish to buy any kind of dog from a breeder or pet shop when 50% of dogs in shelters are euthanised.
> 
> I have 2 gorgeous rescued mix breed dogs, a minature collie cross and a kelpie cross and i have never had a health concern in over 10 years.
> 
> I would much rather save the life of a dog then opt out for a 'more aesthetically pleasing' purebred and support the massive over population problem we face.



I understand why a person would choose an animal that has been carefully bred, records kept, adequately tested for known defects & diseases etc over one that hasn't, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a sound animal, the issue here is our perception of soundness in dogs. How can anybody label an animal healthy when it's been purposely selected for dwarfism, ectropion, alopecia or brachycephalism (to name a few).

I too will only rehome dogs, ones that morphologically fit my criteria if I can help it but regardless it's unfair that the unforeseeing public is continuously duped into thinking their $1,200 pug is the perfect picture of health.

I do not agree with the concept of healthy purebreds as a whole, closed stud books are a completely outdated approach to breeding. Mother nature is far better at molding animals than we are.


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## SilentPets (Dec 29, 2013)

*Dog Breed Problems*

Breeding for certain characteristics is resulting in unhealthy animals, it seems like the governing bodies do their best to uphold these characteristics & to adhere to the breed standards no matter the consequences. 
Education is key in pushing for change. 
And I agree 
I had A chihuahua years ago it was a Registered show dog and I did show Him and He was a very nice little dog,after a year I decided to buy a Female also Registered and show Her,then I wanted to breed Them,
However,the Female was of the "Modern" style..much smaller and shorter trunk (less room for puppies,I learnt):cry:
But this was what "breed show standards" wanted in the ring,
Small compact tiny little Chihuahuas,of course My poor ***** had to have a Cesarian and only had one pup in Her.
It cost Me heaps at the vet and once there the "VET" said OH! why don't You have it desexed it's too little 
Bringing My little dog home I was sad that I had desexed Her because I could no longer show Her.
And it was something that I did with My Children over a few years and We all loved it.
But then I showed the " PUP" that My 2 dogs produced and for a very short time I won with Her.
But then once the Puppy got bigger and started to look like Her father I was eventually asked to NOT show Her anymore.
I was discusted that all "THEY" the Judges wanted was (unbreedable Dogs)no matter the cost of pain to animals. 
What they wanted was a dog to look just how they wanted it to look and not how it came out Naturally,
They didn't care if the poor little dogs had to have C sections over and over(as a few had told Me with theirs)
I never went back to showing and told My Children why.


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## OldestMagician (Jan 2, 2014)

Jazzz said:


> I think its pretty selfish to buy any kind of dog from a breeder or pet shop when 50% of dogs in shelters are euthanised.
> 
> I have 2 gorgeous rescued mix breed dogs, a minature collie cross and a kelpie cross and i have never had a health concern in over 10 years.
> 
> I would much rather save the life of a dog then opt out for a 'more aesthetically pleasing' purebred and support the massive over population problem we face.



I couldn't agree more with this. I'll never buy a dog from a pet shop or backyard breeder. I'll be looking at getting 2 rescue dogs within the next year. Even my cat is a rescue (not from a shelter, from a couple. When I got her she was covered in fleas, locked in a room, constantly scared of their dog, afraid of people and unknown to everyone - pregnant.) who is now much happier, flea free and desexed. You can't compare to seeing the happy animal slowly emerge from one that has had a bad life. I don't think you can compare that feeling to having a 'pretty' dog.

Coming from the UK where I've never seen dogs or cats for sale at pet shops (it's not illegal, but even my parents can't remember seeing any since the 80's) I find it disgusting to see them for sale in shop windows. Especially when you walk past after the shop has closed and can hear them whining and crying inside.


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## Jazzz (Jan 2, 2014)

Im a foster carer for no kill rescue organisations as well so my job is to get these animals healthy and to trust humans again. 

I have had 3 cases of pure bred cats up for adoption. A Norwegian forest who at 18 months old had had 3 litters of kittens. She was given to a vets to be euthanised as her kittens werent up to standard by the breeder and her shy personality meant it was hard to sell her for the high price the breeder was demanding. Luckily i knew the vet and she is now the lap cat of a vet behaviorist who has brought her out of her shell. The breeder is the most 'reputable' for a number of breeds in australia and is apparently an 'ethical' breeder. 

I had a litter of 2 week old burmeses who were also given to the vets to be euthanised. The mum cat had died of an infection and the breeder didnt have the time to handraise them. Again, luckily i knew the vet and they were all snapped up by adopters! And again, this is a highly respected breeder of burmeses in australia. 

The third is a Persian i have at the moment. The breeder found out she had ringworm so quickly sold her over gumtree. The new owner had never had a persian (or cat) before so thought it was a skin condition and was going to surrender her to the pound where they euthanise ring worm cats straight away. Luckily through a friend of a friend we have her and she is ringworm free and waiting to find her new home.

All im saying is that these are not back yard breeders. These are so called reputable and ethical breeders that people feel comfortable buying with. They really couldnt care less about their individual animals and the people who buy off them have no idea.


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## Shaggydog (Jan 2, 2014)

My mum has two purebred Cavaliers that she brought from pet shops, one's an amazing 16 years and the other is about 7. The 16 year old one developed cherry eye and went deaf and blind when he was much younger in life. But Cujo the younger one has had no issues at all, that being said he hardly looks purebred. 

Personally I have a white shepherd named Gypsy, I wanted a mixed breed rescue but my mum wouldn't allow it as I was living under her roof at the time and it was for my 21st. She was from some idiot who believed in letting the ***** have a litter before desexing. Only issue I've had from her is almost dying from being desexed and shes 2 years old so I'm pretty lucky. Most people who meet her are surprised when they find out I desexed her, but she's not breed standard she's about half the size of a normal shepherd :/ 

Also had purebred and domestic/ mixed cats. The domestics/ mixed definitely don't have as many issues in regards to health, and usually have better temperament too. Though you do have to be careful when purchasing male kittens if they've already been desexed as it increases the chance of Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease which can be frustrating.


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## viciousred (Jan 2, 2014)

If anyone wants to see the level of abusive breeding going on look up footage of GSD show winners in the UK and America. These poor dogs can barely walk.
http://m.youtube.com/results?q=germ...levance&search_type=search_all&uploaded=&sm=3


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## Jazzz (Jan 2, 2014)

Shaggydog said:


> Also had purebred and domestic/ mixed cats. The domestics/ mixed definitely don't have as many issues in regards to health, and usually have better temperament too. Though you do have to be careful when purchasing male kittens if they've already been desexed as it increases the chance of Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease which can be frustrating.



As a foster carer for a no kill, all of our kittens are desexed at 10 weeks old (over 1kg) before they go to their new homes. Personally ive had about 70 male kittens and have never had an issue with any kind of urinary tract infection or disease. 

What would you suggest would be a better solution to this rare disease?


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## viciousred (Jan 2, 2014)

Its actually not rare and becoming much more common. As a vet nurse I see this week in and week out. There has been some thoerys on it being more common in male cats de-sexed before 12 weeks do to there penis not being entirely matured. Increasing the chance of stones (struvites)being caught in the penis and causing a fatal blockage.

BUT there is a lot of evidence that supports diet as a cause. It usually occurs After 2- 3 yrs of age. I have two male cats with it, both de-sexed at 1kg it didn't present until 4 and 5yrs of age. And I manage it by keeping them on a special diet. Having only delt with them as kittens you wouldn't see this. 

There has been no significant study done on this in my knowledge but I believe early de-sexing is considered a predisposing factor and being fed a mainly dry supermarket diet. But we have also have seen Entire male cats with this problem although less common.


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## Shaggydog (Jan 2, 2014)

viciousred said:


> Its actually not rare and becoming much more common. As a vet nurse I see this week in and week out. There has been some thoerys on it being more common in male cats de-sexed before 12 weeks do to there penis not being entirely matured. Increasing the chance of stones (struvites)being caught in the penis and causing a fatal blockage.
> 
> BUT there is a lot of evidence that supports diet as a cause. It usually occurs After 2- 3 yrs of age. I have two male cats with it, both de-sexed at 1kg it didn't present until 4 and 5yrs of age. And I manage it by keeping them on a special diet. Having only delt with them as kittens you wouldn't see this.
> 
> There has been no significant study done on this in my knowledge but I believe early de-sexing is considered a predisposing factor and being fed a mainly dry supermarket diet. But we have also have seen Entire male cats with this problem although less common.



I just think my boy is unlucky, I got him as a dumpee from the vets and hes always been fed well in my care. Yet he goes through such numerous attacks every couple of months that he now gets a fair few of his vet trips discounted by the vets -.-


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## viciousred (Jan 2, 2014)

Is he on a prescription diet such as royal canin S/O? If not I strongly recommend it. It has both a kibble and a wet food, dissolves the struvites and acidifies the urine to prevent there formation and he can be on it for the rest of his life. There is also the Nuetured Male formula but I would go straight onto S/O. 

Anything supermarket or even pet store bought is not a suitable food for a cat with Chronic FLUTD.

If the bouts continue on the S/O you may need to consider surgery to shorten and widen his urethra


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## Shaggydog (Jan 2, 2014)

Hahaha, I'd hardly call it rare. In no way am I saying desexing shouldn't be done, just saying it can be a double edged sword. I know it's not as if rescues can not desex and give people vouchers etc, because lets be honest a fair amount of people are idiots and wouldn't do it. In my head there is no alternative to desexing.

I grew up fostering kittens and it is unbelievable work, actually one of my cats even the rescues wouldn't touch. Deemed too wild as a 5 week old kitten, she's the biggest sook now.


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## saintanger (Jan 2, 2014)

urinary problems are common in cats, years ago i adopted 2 cats both were desexed. the female mix breed had nothing wrong with her but the male pure bred blue russian had to have surgery to remove stones that had blocked up and he nearly died, he also jumped off the roof and broke his leg in multiple places. he spent his whole life on a special diet and that leg played up.


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## Shaggydog (Jan 3, 2014)

viciousred said:


> Is he on a prescription diet such as royal canin S/O? If not I strongly recommend it. It has both a kibble and a wet food, dissolves the struvites and acidifies the urine to prevent there formation and he can be on it for the rest of his life. There is also the Nuetured Male formula but I would go straight onto S/O.
> 
> Anything supermarket or even pet store bought is not a suitable food for a cat with Chronic FLUTD.
> 
> If the bouts continue on the S/O you may need to consider surgery to shorten and widen his urethra



The vet put him onto the C/D Wet by hills, but I've been considering swapping to Royal Canin as I much prefer the brand. I've discussed the surgery with my vet but as an animal studies student I lack the money and the employment to afford it. If I remember he quoted around 1000 - 1500 for it. I think it's the environment that flares it up as I have 2 cats but have been looking after my mums 3. Making 5 cats at my house.


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## viciousred (Jan 3, 2014)

Stress is a pretty big factor in it as well. 

I would change to S/O as C/D doesn't actually dissolve the struvite, it is a secondary diet to the S/D witch does most of the work.


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## Shaggydog (Jan 3, 2014)

saintanger said:


> urinary problems are common in cats, years ago i adopted 2 cats both were desexed. the female mix breed had nothing wrong with her but the male pure bred blue russian had to have surgery to remove stones that had blocked up and he nearly died, he also jumped off the roof and broke his leg in multiple places. he spent his whole life on a special diet and that leg played up.



Poor boy! That must've hurt  
At least he lived through the ordeal and probably has had a long happy life under your care.

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viciousred said:


> Stress is a pretty big factor in it as well.
> 
> I would change to S/O as C/D doesn't actually dissolve the struvite, it is a secondary diet to the S/D witch does most of the work.



Ahhh okay, thank you so much for your suggestion. Will definitely be switching him over


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## Amelia (Jan 13, 2014)

Check out this moderate Bull terrier bred by Lyndon Ingles. Lovely dog without the pointless egg shaped skull.




A look at the Bull terriers own Australian club websites reveals some pretty average photographs representing their distorted idea of the perfect Bully. This picture from the Victorian club website was one of the only non conformation pictures I could find. This dog won reserve challenge dog. Note the small oddly shaped triangular eyes & of course the roman nose, I wonder what this breed will look like in 50 years.


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