# TrueBlue's Anti-Thermostat Stand



## TrueBlue (Jul 10, 2007)

some species need to be cooled more so than others, some hardly need to be cooled at all to sucssesfully breed. The cool temps will help the male produce viable sperm and let them know the seasons are changing.
Because alot of keepers use those mongrel thermostat things, their snakes have no idea what time of the year/season it is half the time, as they are constantly kept at the same temps.(imo a bad way to keep herps, but the perfered way by most keepers??).
If these animals arnt cooled to an extent, most would never breed.


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## hazzard (Jul 10, 2007)

That's fine where you live Rob lol, but not easy to do in Canberra when overnight cooling would be well below zero. The answer for extremely cold climates is thermostats with nightime drop! Or dual day night thermostats to mimic seasons!


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## TrueBlue (Jul 10, 2007)

i disagree hazzard, the way i keep my snakes works better in a cool climate than it does in a warm climate. Belive me.


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## cement (Jul 10, 2007)

Whats your method Blue? 
Do you keep your non breeders (juves) warm or cool them and slow their food down as well?


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## TrueBlue (Jul 10, 2007)

pretty much all my stuff has a heated area and an unheated area, created normally with a division, and they just move from side to side to warm up or cool down, simple, and no thermostat needed, and no chance of cooking a snake when the thermostat malfuntions.


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## boconnor (Jul 10, 2007)

I'm guessing Rob goes with a day cycle at night and a night cycle during the day.


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## Retic (Jul 10, 2007)

It's amazing some of the biggest breeders in the country manage to breed as much as they do with those bloody thermostats LOL.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 11, 2007)

hahaha, yes its amazing is it not boa. hahaha. Lots of ways to do things, ive used both methods with sucsess, but imo the no thermostat way is by far superior and seems to be so much better for the animals health long term.

Not sure what you mean there boconnor.


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## PhilK (Jul 11, 2007)

So you don't use a thermostat? ...Sounds like there's MORE of a chance to cook a snake alive.

Every snake has a thermo-gradient? So they can always move to a cooler area of the enclosure..


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## hugsta (Jul 11, 2007)

I'll sit this one out this time, but I will get beer and popcorn if anyone wants to join me.......LOL


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## Inkslinger (Jul 11, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> hahaha, yes its amazing is it not boa. hahaha. Lots of ways to do things, ive used both methods with sucsess, but imo the no thermostat way is by far superior and seems to be so much better for the animals health long term.
> 
> Not sure what you mean there boconnor.




I'm with true Blue


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## Retic (Jul 11, 2007)

It doesn't matter how many times you explain it I still for the life of me can't see how having a thermostat makes the slightest bit of difference to the health or lifespan of a snake ? You use low wattage bulbs without a stat and I use low wattage bulbs with one, my animals have a warm end and a cool end. I use dimmer stats which keeps a nice constant temp at one end and cooler at the other end, even if my thermostat did malfunction it couldn't overheat because of the low wattage bulbs. 
I don't question it works for you but can't see ANY way that it can affect the snakes health by having a thermostat. 



TrueBlue said:


> hahaha, yes its amazing is it not boa. hahaha. Lots of ways to do things, ive used both methods with sucsess, but imo the no thermostat way is by far superior and seems to be so much better for the animals health long term.
> 
> Not sure what you mean there boconnor.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 11, 2007)

most people dont use low wattage bulbs thou boa so there is very little temp gradiant in most box type enclosures.

Philk, not at all there is no chance to cook a snake as there is always an area that is unaffected by any heating and is always room temp. Whereas a box type enclosure that relys on a thermostat to control temps runs the risk of cooking the snakes if the thermostat breaks, and they do, i know of quite a lot of cooked snakes from thermostat set ups over the years.


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## Ramsayi (Jul 11, 2007)

One thing about your setups confuses me Rob.You have a heated section and a cooler section seperated by a partition with a hole in it big enough for the snake to travel back and forth.

Once the section being heated gets warm/hot then it would fill with warm air which would then start spilling into the cooler section through the hole.After a period of time both sides would equalize with regard to temp.


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## stary boy (Jul 11, 2007)

O DEARY ME! 

It seems ive started anopther thermostat debate!! I already did that last year, that wasnt the urpose of this thread. I just wanted to know why males could only produce viable sperm when its cold and what happens to the female when the temps are down so as they make little egg shaped babies :shock::shock::shock:


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## TrueBlue (Jul 11, 2007)

not at all Ramsayi, pegboard is used in most of the enclosures and as heat rises rather than spreads virtically it has no or little effect on the other side, especially under the paper, which if enough layers are used are most snakes perfered hides. As said the unheated side always remains at room temp.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 11, 2007)

Whats room temp for you TB?


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## jeramie85 (Jul 11, 2007)

hey Rob why dont you post a lil pic of one of your enclosures so that they can see

also i think your way works well due to the fact that the cages/enclosures are long enough so that you can keep the gradiant from hot to cold without ever heating up the cool side

lols i got some insulation stuff not the fibreglass stuff your used to this new stuff that my step dad has only just got passed all the safety regs and rules at his work
that i playing with atm ive got it sitting on a heat mat in a smallish box with a thermometre on top of the insulation and so far for a whole week of the heat matt being on flat out no heat at all has passed through 
its hot underneath but cold on top so it looks like its working well and may start using it in some setups 
kinda like how Robs are


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## Chimera (Jul 11, 2007)

hugsta said:


> I'll sit this one out this time, but I will get beer and popcorn if anyone wants to join me.......LOL



HAHA, I know what your not saying Daz 

Pass the popcorn


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## TrueBlue (Jul 11, 2007)

junglepython, ranges from 34 on some hot summer days to below 10 in the winter.

Heres a couple of pics of how most are set up.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 11, 2007)

Do you need to adjust the wattages depending on the time of year then TB? And how do the snakes go on the hot summer days when the cool end is so warm?


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## TrueBlue (Jul 11, 2007)

25 watt over summer, 40 watt over winter.
When the summer temps are hot its the same as any set up except i know what time of the day/year the shed gets to 30 degrees or more and use timers to turn everything off, if it gets to hot ,which it rarely does up here, ice packs wrapped in a pillow case do the trick.
If the timer breaks and im not home in warm weather it dosnt matter at all because the cold side is unheated so they can escape any artificial heating.


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## Retic (Jul 11, 2007)

Now that is the part I don't get, you don't mind using a timer which can break but hate thermostats. If like me you use low wattage bulbs with a thermostat it is effectively no different to your system but with the thermostat it is more accurate because it will actually turn off when the temp gets too high but with the timer it still relies on you to adjust it. 
Don't get me wrong if it works for you fine but what I object to is the assertion that snakes will somehow live longer healthier lives without a thermostat which is quite frankly absurd.


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## cement (Jul 11, 2007)

thats a nice set up Blue, so all your cages are doubles, and all you use is a 25watt globe in summer and a 40 watt globe in winter. No thermostat. Looks like you dont cage your lights?
Do you use thermometers or don't need to.
Question- where i live in winter a 40 watt and a 25 watt globe run together dont bring the temp up enough, so i need to put a heat mat under the cage cause the cage floors are cold. you dont get this in winter ( or it may not matter if cooling anyway)
I am interested in trying to understand your method.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

theres a big difference boa, this method for most of the year has CONSTANT heat not on/off heat that a thermostat provides. For example if a snake starts feeling a little bit crook it can lie under the light to get as warm as it wants with constant heat, with a thermostat the light is constantly turning on and off in most set ups which can, and in alot of cases does, make the snake sicker quicker. Thats another reason thermostats suck big time.
plus boa for about the 500th time i am refering to box type enclosures that use fairly high wattage bulbs as this is the most common way people keep them and high constant temps WILL shorten a reptiles life, not absurd at all. In fact most of these type set ups the keeper is telling the snake what temp it has to be, WRONG, best to let them decide for themselves i recon and the way i set them up it does exactly that, much like in the wild. Do you understant it yet.!!!!

Cement, its irrelevent what the cage temps are as they can lie on the box/perch directly under the light and get as warm as they want by absorbing the heat radiated from the bulb, the longer they stay there the warmer they get. simple.


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## Miss B (Jul 12, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> with a thermostat the light is constantly turning on and off in most set ups which can, and in alot of cases does, make the snake sicker quicker. Thats another reason thermostats suck big time.


 
How about dimming thermostats? They don't turn on and off.

We had an ON/OFF thermostat but I didn't like it so we got rid of it and switched to a dimming type. The temps seem to stay very constant.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

better than an on/off one, but just not need at all the way i set them up.


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## Miss B (Jul 12, 2007)

Ahh ok. Yeah I don't like the ON/OFF ones. Too inconsistent.


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## Sdaji (Jul 12, 2007)

*Come on Rob, you know you're wrong!*

TrueBlue: can I have your address and birthday? I want to send you a big bag of thermostats as a present. Promise not to smash them, okay? They're for your snakes.

Here is a design for you to use, you can replace all your old enclosures now


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## stary boy (Jul 12, 2007)

LMAO thats a beautiful picture Sdaji! i wish youcould change thread titles to more suit the thread lol


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## Sdaji (Jul 12, 2007)

Oh! Should I have put that into a new thread? Oops!


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Rob with your enclosures would you need to make them larger than you would for a box type enclosure? So that the snake can stretch out in one heat range? Or do they not mind?


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## grimbeny (Jul 12, 2007)

From the pics the enclosures look almost 8 feet all up


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

hahaha, sdaji, sledgehammer prey !!!.

waruikazi, na they can lie the length of the tank from warm to cool side if the want.
All the enclosures are roomy enough for the species, lagre snakes are housed in 6 foot long tanks, medium sixe in 4 foot tanks and small in .9m tanks.


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## Sdaji (Jul 12, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> hahaha, sdaji, sledgehammer prey !!!.
> 
> waruikazi, na they can lie the length of the tank from warm to cool side if the want.
> All the enclosures are roomy enough for the species, lagre snakes are housed in 6 foot long tanks, medium sixe in 4 foot tanks and small in .9m tanks.



Don't deny it, Rob! Now that you've seen my design you're already ordering materials to build enclosures just like it! You just love the even spread of the heat source! Admit it!


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## Hickson (Jul 12, 2007)

Sdaji, those snakes look pretty sick. And I don't mean "fully sik".



Hix


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

send me as many as you can make sdaji, its my birthday this month. true.


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

There really is no need for the sarcasm Rob, I understand exactly what you are saying but my point is that having a thermostat somehow shortens a snakes life and I still have heard nothing to come close to showing me how. 
I know you have said to me that I argue with you but I am trying to understand what you are saying and some of it to me makes no sense. I use dimmer stats which don't switch lights on and off and maintain a constant temperature extremely well.
I think what you need to do is avoid telling people, especially new keepers, that thermostats are bad and will kill your animals because that is all people see KILL YOUR ANIMALS. Of course a thermostat can fail and could kill an animal but that is only if the keeper is using a bulb that is way too powerful for the cage it is heating.
I have seen a great many collections big and small including some of the biggest breeders in this country and almost without fail they use good quality thermostats and have amazing results. That is not to say their system is right but equally it isn't saying yours is wrong, both systems work in different situations. Rather than scaring people with theoretical scenarios I feel it is better to advice keepers, new and old, on the correct way to set up a cage be it with or without a thermostat.


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

There are nowhere near enough heat sources in there, you need a nice big heat mat for night time and a big powerful ceramic in case it gets a little chilly. 



Sdaji said:


> TrueBlue: can I have your address and birthday? I want to send you a big bag of thermostats as a present. Promise not to smash them, okay? They're for your snakes.
> 
> Here is a design for you to use, you can replace all your old enclosures now


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## junglemad (Jul 12, 2007)

you're quite the artist Sadge.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't get how a Thermostat is bad? I've read this board and the solution seems simple to me? Turn down the temp on the thermostat during the day and then turn the whole thing off at night? Though my thermostat seems different to what's described on here. Mine is just a small black box with nothing on it but a knob with numbers that you turn to the desired temp? The heat emmiter is plugged into the thermostat and the thermo stops the heat emmiter getting higher than the temp I want.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

didnt mean to be sarcastic boa, once again its gone straight over your head, MOST thermostat set ups donot allow for much of a temp gradiant and the reptiles are kept at far too constant temps for most of the year and this can and will shorten the life span of different species of reptiles wether you agree with it or not, its fact.
Constant temps,- there we go boa, from your own admittion your saying your snakes have constant temps, tell me where in oz in the wild it stays a constant temp for most the year.??
Im not saying thermostats dont work but i an saying they are deffinitly not needed and imo more of a hinderance than an assett. Plus get it right i have not said that they WILL kill your snakes but they CAN whereas my method can not.
OH by the way the only reason i use timmers to turn the lights off is to save power when its not needed, unlike your thermostats that need to work to stop cooking your snakes in warm weather even if you use low wattage bulbs.


sorry hix, could you move this one too. cheers.


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

I suggest you grab one of these Horsy and deal with the killer device before it gets you and your whole family.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

The differance i see and prefer is that without a thermostat you can acheive the same kind of temperature fluctuations that the snakes would in the wild, so you would get the gradual seasonal changes with that of your environment. Temps rise and fall slowly both seasonally and daily.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

exactly gordo, the snakes can feel day/night and seasonal temp fluctuations, but can also reach what ever temp they want by using the heated area or cool area.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

But my enclosure is 4ft long and has both a heated and cool end. THe thermo/heat emmiter is on the far left side and there's no other source of heat anywhere else in the enclosure so it only heats up a portion of the enclosure, not the whole thing so my snake can choose.


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

this is not aimed at anyone, just my personal opinion!
i think different situations call for different enclosure setups! down in sydney and either further south temps get pretty cold! you couldnt keep a woma or GTP etc with out a thermostat because allowing such a snake to drop to 8 degrees and MUCH colder in parts at night imo is pretty crazy! i personally like the microclimate B1ME's they are diming thermostat so the light doesnt turn on and off and you can give them a day night cycle as they would get 'in the wild'. just for the record i HATE the 'in the wild' line, these are captive animals! not wild, if people want to give them wild conditions throw live prey in their and give them some predators etc.... survival of the fittest!


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

Ah Rob, if you quote things out of context you can make anything sound like anything you like. I at no time said my snakes are kept at all times in constant heat in all parts of their cage, in fact I'm pretty sure I said they get a heat gradient through the use of dimming themostats.
Actually you yourself said this " theres a big difference boa, this method for most of the year has CONSTANT heat not on/off heat that a thermostat provides. " I of course knew you didn't mean the temps are constant throughout the cage. 




TrueBlue said:


> didnt mean to be sarcastic boa, once again its gone straight over your head, MOST thermostat set ups donot allow for much of a temp gradiant and the reptiles are kept at far too constant temps for most of the year and this can and will shorten the life span of different species of reptiles wether you agree with it or not, its fact.
> Constant temps,- there we go boa, from your own admittion your saying your snakes have constant temps, tell me where in oz in the wild it stays a constant temp for most the year.??
> Im not saying thermostats dont work but i an saying they are deffinitly not needed and imo more of a hinderance than an assett. Plus get it right i have not said that they WILL kill your snakes but they CAN whereas my method can not.
> OH by the way the only reason i use timmers to turn the lights off is to save power when its not needed, unlike your thermostats that need to work to stop cooking your snakes in warm weather even if you use low wattage bulbs.
> ...


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

just to add to my previous post i allow a great temperature gradient which gives them the option to get upto 34 and as cold as 22 in summer and 15-22 in winter, the thermostat just stops the extreme temps that can occur


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

Exactly right, this is why I said different systems work in different situations. Common sense is a major part of how you set up your animals. 
It is ridiculous to try and provide 'in the wild' conditions, you would literally be making adjustments to temperature, humidity light levels on an hourly basis. The best we can do is provide our animals with an 'average' amount of heat, light and all the other thins they need to be healthy. 
One thing I will say though is that my Womas experience very low temps at night this time of the year, down in single figures, as long as they have access to heat during the day it isn't a problem.



Jason said:


> this is not aimed at anyone, just my personal opinion!
> i think different situations call for different enclosure setups! down in sydney and either further south temps get pretty cold! you couldnt keep a woma or GTP etc with out a thermostat because allowing such a snake to drop to 8 degrees and MUCH colder in parts at night imo is pretty crazy! i personally like the microclimate B1ME's they are diming thermostat so the light doesnt turn on and off and you can give them a day night cycle as they would get 'in the wild'. just for the record i HATE the 'in the wild' line, these are captive animals! not wild, if people want to give them wild conditions throw live prey in their and give them some predators etc.... survival of the fittest!


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Horsy said:


> But my enclosure is 4ft long and has both a heated and cool end. THe thermo/heat emmiter is on the far left side and there's no other source of heat anywhere else in the enclosure so it only heats up a portion of the enclosure, not the whole thing so my snake can choose.



You are not doing anything wrong by doing it that way, but the use of a thermostat takes out all of the natural fluctuations you get in the wild. In the wild wether the snake wants to be cool or not if it is cool the snake will be cool. During the night etc they can't go and sit on a heat source. 

Where i live i don't use any heat sources because i don't beleive i need to, the snakes get a good day time high and a good night time low and a good seasonal variation. If i had a thermostat and i set the warm end for 30 degrees i would not have this daily and seasonal variation it would be completely fixed from what ever the cool end is to the 30 odd degrees i set the warm end at.


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## whatsup (Jul 12, 2007)

boa , i have set up a fair few enclosures the same as rob's and after doing so i find that 75% of the time they are up the cool end.they are given a hide at each end.we are in brisbane and it has got fairly cool here lately and they still prefer the cool end.
what rob is trying to say is that most new comers start off with a box type enclosure and don't have much temperature gradient at all and is just kept at a constant temp via thermostats.as you know the animals have to be able to escape the heat or move to it when needed.if it can't do this they could become stressed leading to health problems.


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

Gordo, I don't get what you are saying, a thermostat removes the natural fluctuations ? Leaving a light on all the time allows fluctuation how ? A thermostat just regulates the heated end of the cage, if set up properly it doesn't affect the cool end.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

jason, where womas come from it gets to well below 8 degrees and they love it.

I know a number of people down your way that have changed to my method and now swear by it, they breed more animals and have less keeping dramas than when they used thermostats. So it does work well down south in fact it works better in a cooler climate than it does in a warmer climate.
Boa yes but constant on your basking spots by the sounds of it.


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

if they spend most of their time at the cool end i would be thinking mayby the temps at the warm end are higher then they want? if it was thermostatically controlled you would be able to make the warmer end and the enclosure temp gradient more disirable for the animals. 



whatsup said:


> boa , i have set up a fair few enclosures the same as rob's and after doing so i find that 75% of the time they are up the cool end.they are given a hide at each end.we are in brisbane and it has got fairly cool here lately and they still prefer the cool end.
> what rob is trying to say is that most new comers start off with a box type enclosure and don't have much temperature gradient at all and is just kept at a constant temp via thermostats.as you know the animals have to be able to escape the heat or move to it when needed.if it can't do this they could become stressed leading to health problems.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

excatly right sam, if given the chance snakes will spend a lot of time in temps that most people would never provide for them, and i do belive it is essential to long term health.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

jason, no thats wrong they are there because they want to be and they can.


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## whatsup (Jul 12, 2007)

the warmer end usually sits around 30-32 and the cool end 20-24 at the moment.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

boa said:


> Gordo, I don't get what you are saying, a thermostat removes the natural fluctuations ? Leaving a light on all the time allows fluctuation how ? A thermostat just regulates the heated end of the cage, if set up properly it doesn't affect the cool end.



What i mean is If you have an enclosure with a heat source at one end that needs to be controlled by a thermostat, that temp will always be around about what you set it at +- a degree. That means that the cool end will also only fluctuate +- a degree as the warm end fluctuates. This is all controlled by the thermostat so outside varients will not affect the enclosure temps, some people may see this as a good thing, i don't necesarily think so.

The way i do it with no heat source my animals get all of the environmental temp fluctuations with the minimum and maximum being set by mother nature. Rob's system is similar except that he uses a heat source, it raises the temps by ambient + whatever ammount those globes heat up to. I suppose the similarity between our systems is that mother nature is effectively our thermo regulator. 

I don't mean to insult anyone elses methods esp not yours, i can see my method not working in other climates but i can see Rob's working quite well. I suppose each keeper has their prefered method.


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> jason, where womas come from it gets to well below 8 degrees and they love it.
> I know a number of people down your way that have changed to my method and now swear by it, they breed more animals and have less keeping dramas than when they used thermostats.



i understand it can get to 8 degrees but i dont believe it is a must to have successful breeding! i belive 15 degrees is fine, i have never bred womas but my friends only drop them to 15, the snakes spend plenty of time near the heat lamp and has always have suuccessful seasons. i dont doubt they are more then fine at 8 degrees at night but with out a thermostat down south, its likely it can and will get much colder! and then it is getting to the point where its no good for the snakes.

thermostats aren't used to controlle a constant temp (not in my use), but to ensure that temps dont fluctuate and get out of hand which MAY result in the animals getting sick. dont get me wrong people can and do use thermostats wrongly but i dont think they should get rid of them, they should learn how to use them! most people aren't willing to spend the money on a B1ME which allows for day night cycles and better conditions, many people dont have a good temperature gradient!! i do understand what TB is saying about small enclosures with bugger all ventilation and 100Watt spot lamps running on a thermostat, i would just tell them to drop the wattage to allow a temp gradient!


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> jason, no thats wrong they are there because they want to be and they can.



i didnt really explain myself! im not saying in this example the temps are wrong but im saying it is a possability!

with out beeting around the bush, i think thermostats are great cause they make heating more safe, i think the BIGGEST problem is, is the bulbs people use!! correct me if im wrong but one of your concerns is that people are using the wrong bulbs which results in no gradient but a hot box? i agree, but i still think the thermostats should be used but in conjunction with the right bulb! the wattages you use i think are fine cause they are safe cause there is little chance of over heating and still provides a temp gradient; i do however think they should (im most cases) be conected to a thermostats to ensure that the temps dont get to low down south or to hot up north. as you mentioned you use a timer when you know the temps are going to get above 30, what if the wether is unusual and it hits 40 and the timers are in place to turn the heat off? thats why i like the thermostats....they are a safety backup system.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

if the weahter gets to 40 degreess its the same for both set ups, unless the thermo breaks and your not there, then youve got dead snakes, mine can always escape any artifcial heating.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 12, 2007)

I fully believe in the value of using a thermostat but having said that, many new keepers forget the most important reason they should be used and that is, as a safety device to prevent over heating as many of the previous posts have pointed out. If you have a perfect temperature gradient any way and can guarantee your cages aren’t going to exceed undesired temperatures then of course you will not need a thermostat. For the majority of people who house their cages inside insulated houses this is not often the case though. And I agree many cages do not offer ideal temperature gradients and in particular, many plastic tub rack systems. I get around this by air conditioning the entire room and running the heat cable through a thermostat.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

I agree with Jason. My snake had the full choice to go in a cold end that's about 10 degrees lower than my heated end but prefered the heated. Loved to coil up under the heat emmiter. She went over to the cool end when she was ready but usually slept in the hide in the heated end aswell. I believe it's because my heated end was a nice temperature that she enjoyed soaking up.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

Trueblue you jsut aren't getting that, if thermostats are used correctly with the heat source, our snakes CAN escape the heat. We have cool ends too, we don't set up heatemmiters all throughtout the enclosure so the entire thing is hot. My enclosure is like yours; a hot and a cold side that the snake can choose.


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

exactly what i was trying to say..lol


PilbaraPythons said:


> I fully believe in the value of using a thermostat but having said that, many new keepers forget the most important reason they should be used and that is, as a safety device to prevent over heating as many of the previous posts have pointed out.




but if my setup gets to 40 degrees all my heating WILL be off! if a snake room gets to 40 degrees and the heating doesnt turn off (because of no thermostat) the enclosure are going to get even warmer. therefor mine will max at room temp (40) where as the room with no thermostat will POTENTIALLY get hotter. and as said by dave, thermostats are for safety in such situations! 


TrueBlue said:


> if the weahter gets to 40 degreess its the same for both set ups, unless the thermo breaks and your not there, then youve got dead snakes, mine can always escape any artifcial heating.





TB im not nocking your setup at all!!! the quantity and quality of animals you produce is more then enough to prove its working extremely well in YOUR situation. but imo in most situations in areas of different climats i feel it can be important!.
dont forget some people only have one snake, so when temps go out at night with out a thermostat the room is very cold.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Horsy said:


> I agree with Jason. My snake had the full choice to go in a cold end that's about 10 degrees lower than my heated end but prefered the heated. Loved to coil up under the heat emmiter. She went over to the cool end when she was ready but usually slept in the hide in the heated end aswell. I believe it's because my heated end was a nice temperature that she enjoyed soaking up.



And there is no problem with that if it is working for you. But i choose not to do that because that is not what they would be able to do naturally. I know there will be an argument saying that they are not in the wild etc etc but atleast it is something that i can give them that is close to what they would have had naturally.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

> And there is no problem with that if it is working for you. But i choose not to do that because that is not what they would be able to do naturally. I know there will be an argument saying that they are not in the wild etc etc but atleast it is something that i can give them that is close to what they would have had naturally.



So naturally they don't choose between basking in the heat then going somewhere cooler? That's what you are saying.


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## Earthling (Jul 12, 2007)

I find with a box type enclosure I need a higher wattage globe to warm the 'hot' area compared to Robs long, partitioned design. This box type therefore uses more energy and in this 'save the planet' mentality we are all swinging too, isnt that a plus straight up?

Also I found that the 'cool' end of the enclosure in the box type was consistently a few degrees above room temperature, even with a gaping big hole down the cool end for heat transfer.
But with a partitioned design cool end temp was consistenly the same or below room temperature. Larger temp gradient means a happier snake.

With this long partition design, I use lower wattage globes depending on the season(25watt and 40watt) and the heat is localised and regulated enough switching between globes twice a year, that a thermostat is irrelevant and not needed. 

After some experimentation I also found that putting a half petition and a full petition (allowing a hole for the snake) in each cage allowed no heat transfer to cool end and also gave a warmer heat gradient in the warm end. 
So larger temp gradient, larger warm areas, save energy, save money(power and thermostats), cooler 'cool' ends = happy herpers and herps.
All good.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Horsy said:


> So naturally they don't choose between basking in the heat then going somewhere cooler? That's what you are saying.



No what i am saying is they do not naturally always get a basking spot of 34 degrees. Some days they don't get a basking spot, naturally at night they may get down to 4 degrees and then back up to 45 during the day. Naturally they have very little access to constant temperatures.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

So therefore the snake is better off to being able to bask everyday seeing as they are a coldblooded creature who relys on the heat to keep warm. I think if a snake got to choose between one day hot, one day cold, one day warm: one day out of three for a good bask, they'd prefer a constant access to basking. If my snake doesn't want to bask,. it doesn't have to but it chooses to because it WANTS to.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 12, 2007)

Horsy
What size cage are you using ?
What wattage bulb are you using ?
Assuming you have measured temperatures at both extremes what are they ? 

Cheerts Dave


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## stary boy (Jul 12, 2007)

YOU CHANGED MY THREAD NAME lol!!!!


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

My enclosure is 4ft long. I dont use a bulb I use a heat emmiter. It plugs into my thermostat and the thermo stops it getting higher than the temp I want it to. Usually the heated end is 29-30 degrees and the cooler end sits at about 20-21 degrees.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Horsy said:


> So therefore the snake is better off to being able to bask everyday seeing as they are a coldblooded creature who relys on the heat to keep warm. I think if a snake got to choose between one day hot, one day cold, one day warm: one day out of three for a good bask, they'd prefer a constant access to basking. If my snake doesn't want to bask,. it doesn't have to but it chooses to because it WANTS to.



When have i said what you are doing is wrong? If i recall properly i said if that works for you then great keep up the good work. How long have you kept snakes and do you breed them? 

I have not kept them for along time compared to some other herpers but i have and do breed my snakes and do so with reasonable success. I am sharing with people who want to listen what works for me. All of my snakes are healthy and i know this because i get them vet checked regularly, one big factor in keeping a healthy snake and breeding them is haveing a good temperature and temperature varient, both daily and seasonally.


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

this is not directed at anyone inparicular! i feel this gets thrown around WAY to often!
'IN THE WILD' is a bad term imo, i have a part time job in a pet shop on the weekends and i here this atleast once a day! this is just a few of the things i have customers say to me every weekend:
-'they dont need a heat light, they wouldnt have it in the wild' 
-'they eat live mice and rats and what ever else i catch around the house, they would eat it in the wild'
-'i feed him every 10-12 weeks, thats all he would catch in the wild' 
-i never worm them, who's gona worm them in the wild?'

im not joking this is some of the things i here EVERYWEEK! then i reply with the following:
1) these arent wild animals.....they are captive and so should be given the best of conditions that you can give them!
2) i then usually ask if they have a dog and wether the treat it like a wild dog, and throw them rotting animal, or just release animals into the backyard so the dog can catch it and kill it like it would do IN THE WILD, dont supply a bed etc and just let it find somewhere in the yard it likes (which some dogs do), wether they worm them or wash their dog.......... usually they look after their dog ok, but to them they look at reptiles like wild animals still.

i just believe with the rate that this hobby is growing, that the coment just gets thrown around to much and people should start talking about reptiles lilke they are captive animals more cause if we the breeders dont, then all the new comers will also be using the excuss that its like that 'in the wild'

sorry about my little rant..... i probably should have started a new thread...lol


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

I have not bred, no. I know the topic started off with "how can you breed with those things" but then changed to allround thermo use being bad so I came in to state otherwise.

I know you never said it was bad and I appreciate that. I just find something people are saying are a little self-contradicting.


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## SLACkra (Jul 12, 2007)

just thought i'd chime in. i'd say the main problem with thermostats when used in those box cages is that the temp in the entire tank is pretty much the same. My snake currently is heated by a heat matt controled by a thermostat that gives him a constant 30-35'C heat source. however he mainly uses it when hes digesting or coming up to a shed. the rest of the time hes out wonder the tank in conditions as low as 14'C so thats a temp gradient of over 15'C.

robs method works on the principle that the snake knows what's best for itself. The snake is its own thermostat! Robs method also includes using that barrier to allow a smaller lower water bulb to be run constantly and allow a good temp on one side while keeping the other side relatively unheated. 

robs method and the method i am using at the moment allow for malfunctioning equitment to cause no damage to the snake as if the heating dosen't turn off the snake can excape the heat at the cold end of the enclosure. 

i think the main thing to keep in mind when designing or setting up a reptile enclosure is as i said above the snake knows whats best for itself!

andrew


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Horsy said:


> I have not bred, no. I know the topic started off with "how can you breed with those things" but then changed to allround thermo use being bad so I came in to state otherwise.
> 
> I know you never said it was bad and I appreciate that. I just find something people are saying are a little self-contradicting.



I would really like to know how i have contradicted myself. Please tell me.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

I'm not implying you. I said some people.


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## MMAnne (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't know much about breeding, but I know enough to contribute this little bit...

It is not natural to keep a snake in an enlcosure, no matter how big or small, so why all this hype on what is natural or not?

I don't see the problem of using a thermostat if you do not plan on breeding. I know my snake enjoys the heat he has access to, so why should I take that away unless I have to?

Many people have bred successfully using a thermo before. It is up to them whether they want to increase their chances by ditching the thermo and lowering their temps. It doesn't do any harm to the snake either way, as far as I know.


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## Horsy (Jul 12, 2007)

I agree with MMAnne but will say that you CAN lower the temps with a thermo, at least my thermo. I can lower it right down to 1 degree or up to 40 degrees, depending on what I want.


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## Jason (Jul 12, 2007)

scrap my last post! i put it in a new thread so it doesnt change the direction of this one.

the main issue with enclosures is the availabilty of a temperature gradient, i think the biggest issue is not the thermostats but people using the wrong heating which results in a 'hot box' not an enclosure with a good temp gradient.


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## Miss B (Jul 12, 2007)

We've got a Microclimate B1 'magic-eye' thermostat (dimming type) with optional day/night cycle.


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## SLACkra (Jul 12, 2007)

i think people are getting confused about what is bad about thermostats. eg say you have a box style enclosure with a thermostat in the middle controlling the heat source. overall the enclosure is going to have a crap heat gradient. also if the thermostat malfunctions you'll most likely end up with a cooked reptile. Also with the entire enclosure being heated the snake has no idea what time of year it is which could make breeding more difficult. 

thermostats aren't the devil however they can be used say in a setup like robs on the hot side of the enclosure controlling the heat source keeping the hot side at the temp required. Even if it does malfunction the animal can still excape to the cold side. However as rob as shown its not really nessesary. 

Andrew


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

Rob, is there a difference between my constant and your constant ? Mine have a more or less constant hot spot and a cooler area, isn't that what yours have ? If a hot spot is too hot they move away from it, isn't that what should happen ?



TrueBlue said:


> Boa yes but constant on your basking spots by the sounds of it.


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## Mystery (Jul 12, 2007)

boa said:


> Rob, is there a difference between my constant and your constant ? Mine have a more or less constant hot spot and a cooler area, isn't that what yours have ? If a hot spot is too hot they move away from it, isn't that what should happen ?



That is what I have been thinking - if your enclosure is long enough, with or without a thermo, wouldn't you both be getting the same affect?


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## krusty (Jul 12, 2007)

this is a great and verry interesting tread.it's got me thinking and that hurts.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

krusty said:


> this is a great and verry interesting tread.it's got me thinking and that hurts.



Lol i have a shocker of a head ache after that one


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## jasontttt (Jul 12, 2007)

if you are using robs method of no thermos ,how do you cool the snakes for breeding?


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## whiteyluvsrum (Jul 12, 2007)

i dont think any setup is better, as long as there is a cool and warm end thats all is required.


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## ravensgait (Jul 12, 2007)

That's an interesting statement TrueBlue can you point the way to the research on them having shorter life spans, for me??

What's wrong with a Thermostat with the night drop feature??? never used a heat lamp for a snake...
Randy


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## nightowl (Jul 12, 2007)

jasontttt said:


> if you are using robs method of no thermos ,how do you cool the snakes for breeding?



That is the beauty of Rob's method....the enclosure's temps (at the cool end) are based on the ambient temps in the room because of the amount of ventilation (pegboard backing). So obviously in winter the room gets colder and so do the enclosures. As long as they have a warm end to bask in during the day they will still cool over winter without RI problems. Our house never gets too cold because we have the heater on, so temps don't get too cold in the enclosures. That is, just because we get 0 to -2 temps over night during winter, doesn't mean it gets that cold in the house! 

Also, using a 25 watt bulb for heating doesn't allow the warm end to heat as much in winter as in summer....eg; my tank's warm end in summer hovered around the 32 deg mark and in winter it is reaching around 26.

Cheers
Shane


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

boa, not really no, because the bulbs is on all the time and the temp around it changes with the day/night and seasonal changes, yet a dimming thermostat will keep that basking spot the same temp pretty much all the time. Very different.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Slightly off topic Rob but what are you (and every one else i suppose) going to do when you can only buy the fluro type of globe? I think we are only a year away from the incandescent globes being banned.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

I have a friend that works at a light/electrical shop, and ill just stock up and by a few grands worth of bulbs to last untill i die.


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## waruikazi (Jul 12, 2007)

Lol i guess that will work


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

As has been stated more than once the snake just moves nearer to or further away from the heat source to attain their ideal temperature, that's what my snakes do and have always done. 
The hot spot is constant but the area around it is obviously cooler, snakes are clever little critters 



TrueBlue said:


> boa, not really no, because the bulbs is on all the time and the temp around it changes with the day/night and seasonal changes, yet a dimming thermostat will keep that basking spot the same temp pretty much all the time. Very different.


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## dickyknee (Jul 12, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> I have a friend that works at a light/electrical shop, and ill just stock up and by a few grands worth of bulbs to last untill i die.



If that fails Rob or you do run out , what would you be using ?? (or any one else who has an opinion on it )
I was just thinking about this the other day


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## whatsup (Jul 12, 2007)

lol rob.i've been stocking up on light bulbs aswell.that old fella with grey hair at the shop comes in handy sometimes.


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## Blackdog (Jul 12, 2007)

Oi enough with the old, your no spring chicken yourself.


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## whatsup (Jul 12, 2007)

pmsl. you did'nt mind the grey hair bit?was hoping you'd see the thread


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## Blackdog (Jul 12, 2007)

Can't deny the hair is grey, but I am NOT old, just time challenged.
By the way the price of your bulbs just went up.


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## ALLANA (Jul 12, 2007)

Rob I think your setup is a great idea and have actually been considering the same setup for a while (although I have never used thermostat's anyhow, havn't found the need.

Allana


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## TrueBlue (Jul 12, 2007)

hahaha, getting ready for the next herp trip north blackdog.???
should have my new reef boat by the time yous get here.


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## PimmsPythons (Jul 12, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Slightly off topic Rob but what are you (and every one else i suppose) going to do when you can only buy the fluro type of globe? I think we are only a year away from the incandescent globes being banned.


all my main cages are set up in the same way as the photos below .i have a main light (fluro) and an other light under the basking shelf (up high in a corner)to keep it warm so that is the only "hotspot"in the cage.i dont use more than a 25 watt bulb (in winter)for the basking light and i have found that the higher wattage fluros (15-18 watt) give of enough heat to warm it.at night i give them no heat.the cages are well ventilated and i dont use a thermostat.if they want the warm spot they know where to go.in the summer months i just take the basking bulb out.
i believe in trying to copy the temps the the species are found in.eg,diamonds cooler ,darwins warmer.


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## zulu (Jul 12, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> I have a friend that works at a light/electrical shop, and ill just stock up and by a few grands worth of bulbs to last untill i die.


 LMAO


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## Blackdog (Jul 12, 2007)

hahaha, getting ready for the next herp trip north blackdog.???
should have my new reef boat by the time yous get here.


Hmmm, herping in paradise and wasting time fishing the Great Barrier Reef. Oh ok it'll be a tough job but i guess someone has to do it.


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## reptyle (Jul 12, 2007)

many people seem to be referring back to "it wouldnt be like that in the wild", etc, but we have to remember, the majority, if not all of these snakes have been multi generation captive breed reptiles that have thrived in each of these conditions mentioned.
in my opinion, i dont see why there is conflict over to methods that are both successful.
just my 2 cents anyway, lol

ian


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## Retic (Jul 12, 2007)

I feel I should just say that I have nothing against the style of cage Rod uses, I have seen all sorts of variations of it over the years and they seem to work well with or without thermostats.
I think the without thermostat system certainly can work in the right climate, probably not as useful in southern states but it has it's merits. My 'issue' if you like is that the exact same system can't work with a thermostat or the assumption that a thermostat somehow shortens a snakes life. I still haven't heard anything to suggest that could be true.
Each to their own and whatever works but we mustn't be telling people something is dangerous without telling people why and what can be done to make them safe.


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## Tatelina (Jul 12, 2007)

I have a thermostat.. I bought it months before I got any snakes and it's still sitting in the same box under my bed unused.. 
All my tanks/enclosures have a hot and a cool end. They all eat, crap, shed, explore, drink.... So I guess they're happy and healthy?


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## sengir (Jul 12, 2007)

*OK*



boa said:


> There really is no need for the sarcasm Rob, I understand exactly what you are saying but my point is that having a thermostat somehow shortens a snakes life and I still have heard nothing to come close to showing me how.
> I know you have said to me that I argue with you but I am trying to understand what you are saying and some of it to me makes no sense. I use dimmer stats which don't switch lights on and off and maintain a constant temperature extremely well.
> I think what you need to do is avoid telling people, especially new keepers, that thermostats are bad and will kill your animals because that is all people see KILL YOUR ANIMALS. Of course a thermostat can fail and could kill an animal but that is only if the keeper is using a bulb that is way too powerful for the cage it is heating.
> I have seen a great many collections big and small including some of the biggest breeders in this country and almost without fail they use good quality thermostats and have amazing results. That is not to say their system is right but equally it isn't saying yours is wrong, both systems work in different situations. Rather than scaring people with theoretical scenarios I feel it is better to advice keepers, new and old, on the correct way to set up a cage be it with or without a thermostat.


 


Jason said:


> this is not directed at anyone inparicular! i feel this gets thrown around WAY to often!
> 'IN THE WILD' is a bad term imo, i have a part time job in a pet shop on the weekends and i here this atleast once a day! this is just a few of the things i have customers say to me every weekend:
> -'they dont need a heat light, they wouldnt have it in the wild'
> -'they eat live mice and rats and what ever else i catch around the house, they would eat it in the wild'
> ...


 


boa said:


> I feel I should just say that I have nothing against the style of cage Rod uses, I have seen all sorts of variations of it over the years and they seem to work well with or without thermostats.
> I think the without thermostat system certainly can work in the right climate, probably not as useful in southern states but it has it's merits. My 'issue' if you like is that the exact same system can't work with a thermostat or the assumption that a thermostat somehow shortens a snakes life. I still haven't heard anything to suggest that could be true.
> Each to their own and whatever works but we mustn't be telling people something is dangerous without telling people why and what can be done to make them safe.


 

OK everyone its late and I love this thread. Good reading the probelm with this is that every keeper has their own preferred method of heating/cooling their snakes and just because one keeper say their method is right doesn't mean he is right or another person will change to use it. I agree with the quoted phrase in BOA's post "that is all people see KILL YOUR ANIMALS" that is all people see, rob I don't believe it will kill there animals. The problem is people don't do enough research into what the animal needs or how to heat it properly, "newbs" could go out and buy a 100 watt globe for a 2 foot enclosure with a thermostat and the thermo dies = cooked snake, yet if they did their research bought say a 25-50 watt globe with or with out a thermo no matter what whether the thermo dies or they don't have one there is little chance of a snake bbq. So maybe instead of people not trying to say, anyone in particular or that anyone says this, but instead of focusing on the point of how bad thermo's are how bout focus on the right selection of globe and wattage to suit the individuals tank.

Jason as to your post about "IN THE WILD" in the relativity of things snakes as compared to dogs ARE WILD, how long has the dog been domesticated as to the reptile. I am not sure on the exact number but I think you could safely say a least hundreds of years, so comparing a dog to a reptile is being very simple and not really thinking your argument through. I don;t mean offense but really think about it, how in anyway do either of the two really relate in the terms of domestication, they don't really, multi generation captive bred in snake terms generally mean probably 20 predecessor lines of captive breeding which would be about 50 to 60 years at max, dogs is like hundreds or thousands of times previously captive bred, I can't explain it properly but I would hope you should all understand what I mean. So in no way can you compare reptiles to dogs. barely any of there requirements other than food and water are remotely the same.

To everyone I agree with Robs method of giving the snakes an ambient temperature gradient (a gradient that is also affected by the natural weather conditions) but at the same time I agree with boa in that I think that using the right wattage globes and a bit of common sense when setting up the cage thermostats can also be used safely, and as to the thought that using thermos to create a constant heat range being detrimental to a snakes health I have no idea so I cannot comment on that.

I am only stating my opinion and not of anyone else, I really think that any knowledge one person can gain in this hobby is by listening to various different keepers and their opinions and using your own common sense, to put in place which method or conglomorate of methods that suit the individual.

Once again this is my rave and it is late so sorry if you don't understand or don't agree


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## Recharge (Jul 12, 2007)

gah, even in the articles about banning incandescent bulbs, they said, you'd STILL be able to get them for pet and other speciality needs...

and it won't be for years yet anyway...


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## Hetty (Jul 12, 2007)

I'm with Recharge, they'll have to keep selling them for some purposes.


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## Recharge (Jul 12, 2007)

http://members.optusnet.com.au/recharge1/Pictures/Snake/enclosures.jpg
thermostat is fine is something like this  even if the bulb is left on, no way could it cook the snake  lots of "running" room too hehe


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## ravensgait (Jul 13, 2007)

So this is just your opinion then ? and here I thought there might be some research to look into... Randy


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## ravensgait (Jul 13, 2007)

Reading all this I have a question, do most the folks in Australia use lights to heat your cages? from reading this it sure seems that many do.
I've used heat lamps very very seldom and have never liked using them but to each their own.

I can understand that using lamps with a thermostat would be a problem, On/off types would drive you and the snake nuts and proportional types wouldn't work well on low settings and both types would cause bulbs to wear out faster as switching a light on and off causes it to fail sooner as does running it at lower power than it was designed for.

I use heat panels, heat tape or pads and heat rope all are hooked up to a thermostat or rheostat. My cages are in rooms in my basement which do vary in temperature from summer to winter. I have lights on timers in each room for day lighting and red bulbs to see and feed by at night. I use the night drop feature on my thermostats if I need to drop the temps or I just have them set to shut off for a certain length of time at night if I need it. Or both features together during cooling for breeding with some animals to slowly reduce and bring back up the temps..

I think it is irresponsible to flat out state that Thermostats are bad and will kill or shorten a snakes life. As using a Thermostat properly with equipment it is designed to work with is one of the best safety features you and your animals can have. Thermostats used with heat panels, heat tape or pads or heat rope is safer for both you and your snakes, Panels and some pads are designed to never get hot enough to burn. And they are cheaper to use in the long run as they don't use anywhere near the electricity that heat lamps and bulbs do. Using a thermostat you can fine tune your cage temps you can't do that without one.

If bulbs are all you have to use or want to use fine but saying a Thermostat is a bad thing to use is just wrong no if ands or buts about it... I'm not trying to tell anyone what to use here and I'm not familiar with what you have available to use in Aus.. But I can speak from my experience having kept a bunch of snakes over the years and a temperature controller of some type is the best way to go... Randy


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## salebrosus (Jul 13, 2007)

hugsta said:


> I'll sit this one out this time, but I will get beer and popcorn if anyone wants to join me.......LOL



Grab a few rums for me Huggy and join me in my loungeroom for this one. LOL.

Simone.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 13, 2007)

boa boa boa, your "issue" is that you only seem to read what you want to read or understand what you want to.??.
For about the 501 time im talking about a box type set up, with wattage bulbs that WILL cook the snake if the thermo breaks,hell even low wattage bulbs in warm weather will do this.
This is by far the most common set up.
Ive never said a thermostat wont work with this method?, but its a complete waste of money and time using one cause its not needed.
My method is simple and non dangreous, unlike most thermo set ups.
And many species of reptiles that are housed in hot box type enclosures will suffer and not live as long, this is fact.

Almost all reptiles need metabloic rest from time to time, for good health and longlivity, and most thermostat set ups simply do not allow this.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 13, 2007)

more than an opinion, ive seen it many times over the years, proofs in the pudding.


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## nvenm8 (Jul 13, 2007)

then there's those that misinterpret your set up TrueBlue and make their snakes sick! Double edged sword mate!


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## TrueBlue (Jul 13, 2007)

how can it be misinterpreted.? its to simple.
Same princable as a reptile in the wild, if it gets to cool it seeks out a warm spot, if it gets to warm it seeks out a cool spot. Provide one of each and mums the word. Now thats not rocket science.


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## nvenm8 (Jul 13, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> how can it be misinterpreted.? its to simple.
> Same princable as a reptile in the wild, if it gets to cool it seeks out a warm spot, if it gets to warm it seeks out a cool spot. Provide one of each and mums the word. Now thats not rocket science.



But the problem is that there are some that as far as reptile keeping goes it may as well be rocket science. They only hear what they want to. 
I am not calling your husbandry methods into question or boas! there are merits to both and both have a place in herpetology! 
there is opportunity to misinterpret any set up method. There are those that would read between the lines here and all they will hear is * I don't need a thermostat * I can save a few $$ with this system and away they go.
I bet you have dealt with this type of person time and time again throughout your herping career! they only hear what they want to hear! Even if it's written down on a care sheet.


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## hugsta (Jul 13, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> Grab a few rums for me Huggy and join me in my loungeroom for this one. LOL.
> 
> Simone.


 
*grabs Simone a schooner of rum and joins her on the lounge*
Boy its cold, can you move closer......:shock::lol:


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## Chimera (Jul 13, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> more than an opinion, ive seen it many times over the years, proofs in the pudding.



Blaming thermostats is specious reasoning TB. In actual fact what you have seen is the results in poor keeping. I believe there is research that will show that keeping a python consistently too hot can reduce their lifespan (unsure of specific research).

Essentially your case is that the thermostat is to blame for a python being kept too hot and not being provided a thermal gradient. In actual fact it is the entire keeping practice that is to blame, thermostats just make an easier target because you don't have to criticise someone directly.


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## Tristis (Jul 13, 2007)

you have to give your reptiles a USEABLE CHOICE of temps its that simple.
i live in sydney and am slowly changing to robs method of houseing because it works so well.
lets not forget how tuff reptles are a few hours of 4-5 degrees is nothing


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## Craig2 (Jul 13, 2007)

Boa and Rob there is no differance between your methord only rob uses a timer and boa is using a thermistat as a switch if it gets hot 
Rob i dont think boa uses the thermistat to control the temp but just to switch the heat off if it gets to hot therefore his lights would not go off till say 34deg and then back on under that so i get the impression that the bulbs he is using alows the temps to hover just under that meaning his lights are on all the time just like yours. 

i think the big arguement here is about people using 100w bulbs in a 2*2*2 where they rely on the thermistat to turn the heat off and on to regulate inclosure temp a constant temp i will add


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## Retic (Jul 13, 2007)

Like when you (intentionally ?) said I keep my animals at a constant temperature when in fact the opposite is true and has been pointed out more than once. Read what you want to read ?
When you initially started telling us all that thermostats are the spawn of the devil and will shorten a reptiles life there was no mention as I recall of that only applying to 'box type enclosures'. 
I'm not really sure how many times I can say I totally understand your system and have seen it working many times over the years. 
Once again my point is don't try to frighten new keepers with talk of killing animals and shortening their life simply by using a thermostat.



TrueBlue said:


> boa boa boa, your "issue" is that you only seem to read what you want to read or understand what you want to.??.
> For about the 501 time im talking about a box type set up, with wattage bulbs that WILL cook the snake if the thermo breaks,hell even low wattage bulbs in warm weather will do this.
> This is by far the most common set up.
> Ive never said a thermostat wont work with this method?, but its a complete waste of money and time using one cause its not needed.
> ...


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## Retic (Jul 13, 2007)

Exactly, a thermostat will not and can not shorten the life of an otherwise healthy animal. Poor husbandry certainly can.


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## Recharge (Jul 13, 2007)

what? you want factual evidence?? OMG!


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## Colin (Jul 13, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> pretty much all my stuff has a heated area and an unheated area, created normally with a division, and they just move from side to side to warm up or cool down, simple, and no thermostat needed, and no chance of cooking a snake when the thermostat malfuntions.



:lol: If I was a snake in your collection Rob I'd curl up in the warm end 365 days a year and only go to the cool end to defecate


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## salebrosus (Jul 13, 2007)

hugsta said:


> *grabs Simone a schooner of rum and joins her on the lounge*
> Boy its cold, can you move closer......:shock::lol:



Giddu Up Huggy, move alot closer babe.

Simone.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 13, 2007)

boa, i havnt said YOU keep your animals at a constant temp, the way you set them up does not apply to what i am talking about. But as you would know the most common way people keep a snake is in the box type thermo regulated enclosure which imo is bad, and has all the risks im talking about.
Any tank that needs the light to be turned off by a thermostat so that it dosnt cook the snakes imo is an accident waitting to happen when its so much easier, safer and imo healthier for the animals in most case to set them up with out that risk.


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## Simple (Jul 13, 2007)

This is awesome !!!


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## bredli84 (Jul 13, 2007)

it seems to me that boa's method is a less "extremist" version of TB's, his thermostat would only kick in on rare occasions on really hot days. because of this i would assume that boa's method is safer because it is not relying on a timer to kick in at some arbitrary point to prevent the temps getting too high on a hot day.

Boa, (sorry if u have already said this) but where do u position your thermostat, in the cool r warm end?


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## cement (Jul 13, 2007)

I picked this thread up again this evening to learn more about Blue's method. I understand it now and it makes damn good sense. I am all for keeping things simple and even though I run the "hot box method" I have thought it flawed, Or better still ,flawed in summer. It works great in winter because the gradient is much steeper, but summer is not so steep. Thanks for the idea's Blue, i think it is the answer to what i have been trying to figure out.


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## jordo (Jul 13, 2007)

Haven't read the whole thread, but I've often wanted to use an open top type method for my lizards with a spotlight to create a warm enough basking area but the heat can just leave rather than heat up the cool end. When I start to get more serious again I though some small troughs or half water tank type enclosures would be good for this plain. I'd like to trial your method Rob, it makes perfect sense to me and sounds like it would create a much larger gradient in fully enclosed enclosures, have you kept any lizard species using this method before or just snakes?


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## -Peter (Jul 13, 2007)

so what do you do Rob, get a little bored and think "its time to bait Boa again". I know, he is that predictable and he responds exactly the same way each time. Hey guys, wanna see Boa squeal. Its like Groundhog Day.


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## Retic (Jul 13, 2007)

I agree, the method I use is practically foolproof. I use low wattage bulbs in the same way Rob does but I have the added security of a quality thermostat.
I position the probe in the hot end thus giving as much of a gradient as is possible.



bredli84 said:


> it seems to me that boa's method is a less "extremist" version of TB's, his thermostat would only kick in on rare occasions on really hot days. because of this i would assume that boa's method is safer because it is not relying on a timer to kick in at some arbitrary point to prevent the temps getting too high on a hot day.
> 
> Boa, (sorry if u have already said this) but where do u position your thermostat, in the cool r warm end?


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## zulu (Jul 13, 2007)

*re TrueBlue*



-Peter said:


> so what do you do Rob, get a little bored and think "its time to bait Boa again". I know, he is that predictable and he responds exactly the same way each time. Hey guys, wanna see Boa squeal. Its like Groundhog Day.


 Loves fishing the old TB hey ! HaHa


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## TrueBlue (Jul 14, 2007)

bredli84,- sorry mate but totally wrong, boas method is NOT as safe and in hot weather if his thermostat breaks there is a real chance of him cooking his snakes even when using low wattage bulbs, whereas if you had read the thread propally, with my tanks there is no way in hell it could ever happen as they can always move to an area that is COMPLETELY un-affected by any artifical heating.

-peter,- hahaha so very very true.


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Sorry Rob but unless my reptile room could get to around 50C then there is no way in the world my snakes could cook regardless of how long the bulbs were on. I know you think that piece of timber acts like a force field but really the heat can get through the hole 
I think the fishing comment could work both ways hey Rob ? LOL


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## TrueBlue (Jul 14, 2007)

thats absolute rubish boa and you know it, now your just clutching at straws.

On a hot day you DO run the risk of cooking snakes, and no the heat does not affect the other side at all, sorry mate but you are wrong.

Like ive said the only reason i turn the heat off is to save power when its not need, not to stop the snakes cooking because it can never happen. i use timmers for this for the conveiniance of it nothing more.


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Rob, maybe just once admit you might be wrong about something. Clutching at straws ??
Like I have said I have nothing against how you set yours up, it seems to work well for you but you do need to accept there are other methods that work as well. Earlier in the thread you have said your comments don't apply to the way I set mine up but now they are a potential death trap.
My room never gets above 30C so I can't see that a few low wattage bulbs are going to make much difference but please you believe whatever you want.


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## TrueBlue (Jul 14, 2007)

sorry boa yes i was wrong i admitt it, i should of said you have LESS chance of cooking your snakes the way they are set up using low wattage bulbs, but the risk is still there if your airconditioner and thermo breaks. still a risk against no risk.
yes clutching at staws boa, because if you cant get your head around this by now you really must be intelligence challanged, and i know your not, so yes definitley clutching at staws.


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## dee4 (Jul 14, 2007)

Do you have heat after feeding Rob? Or just heat for the day and no heat for night all the time?


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Rob, I give up you are right, I'm just off to smash up all my thermostats.
I'm not sure what it is you think I can't get my head around ? Your system works as does mine, I have said this a number of times but somehow it is me who can't get my head around it ? 
I'm just not sure how or why I am clutching at straws ?


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## TrueBlue (Jul 14, 2007)

dee4, the only time my herps dont have acsess to artifical heat is if the snake room, (not tanks), gets to 30 degrees or more as its not needed and saves a bit of power, or if im cooling animals for breeding, ie on during the day off at night, when i feed them during mating their heat stays on 24/7 after a feed untill its all passed, then back to hot days cold night and more mating.
Althought it is not nesecary to turn the heat of at night when mating as most cool themsevles down in the cold side anyway and sucsessfully reproduce.

Its about time you saw the light boa and looked out side the "box".

just for the record boa, ive never said the the thermo method dosnt work but it has a risk that my method completely eliminates, this is my main argument and the fact that most set ups have far to high wattage bulbs imo.


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## clarkey (Jul 14, 2007)

I can see Rob and Boa will never agree, they have been arguing thermostats on this site for at least the last couple of years. Obviously both systems work as each will attest too. But I think Robs systems have a lot of merit.I believe what Rob is trying to show is that his enclosures have a much greater heat gradient than a 'typical' box enclosure and this can only benefit the snake. If people took the temperature at the hot end and cool end of a typical 'box' enclosure I think everybody would agree that unless your enclosure is 10 feet long the diference in temperature would only be a couple of degrees (in a 4ft enclosure), whereas in a setup like Robs the temperature gradient would be at least 5 or 6 degrees, probably more. This HAS to be more benefial and a more natural environment for the snake. I don't believe Rob is trying to rubbish other peoples enclosures who are using thermostats, just trying to point out that you can create a more natural heat gradient by his system, a system that if the right globes are used at the right tie of the year, no thermostats are needed, thereby eliminating a risk that everybody knows is possible


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 14, 2007)

I think Boa and Rob should get together and have babies, just imagine how confused the children would be.


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Rob would have to be the mother. 
We must remember that at least from my side there is no real seriousness to these debates, we don't see eye to eye on a few things and I can live with that and I am sure Rob can but we definitely agree on the really important thing though.


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## ravensgait (Jul 14, 2007)

I don't know both TB and Boa use lights to heat with which is more dangerous to the snakes whether you use a thermostat or not.. Seems like a silly argument when using lights isn't the best idea anyway. TB if your so concerned for how others keep their animals why do you recommend using lights??? Randy


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Randy, I should add that only one of my banks of cages uses light bulbs for heating, the others use heat mats, or cord. They are a much safer heat source and it is virtually impossible to over heat the animal as they need to actively seek out the hot spot on the floor, also they don't radiate a lot of heat so the rest of the cage remains cooler.


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## cris (Jul 14, 2007)

A thermostat is like "a dwarf with learning difficulties"...


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## Recharge (Jul 14, 2007)

hmmm what was that thread on heat mats going crazy and almost burning down the house again?


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Yeah mine are pretty small and just clever enough to do their job, no point making them too intelligent I reckon.



cris said:


> A thermostat is like "a dwarf with learning difficulties"...


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## S.D. (Jul 14, 2007)

Hate to cut in on the argument here, and YES… I have read the whole thread. But am I correct in saying that the only real difference between both your heating methods (in the enclosures you have both used as an example) is that TrueBlue uses a partition between both the heated and non-heated ends of the enclosure and boa does not? And the only other difference from the examples given, you both use low wattage bulbs, however TrueBlue’s are left to run 24/7 (unless it is summer, and then they’re on a timer) and boa’s are on a thermostat 24/7?

From the outside looking in, I’d say both methods quite obviously get the job done, only in different ways (which you have both seemed to have realised in the end, if still a little “stubborn”). Glad to see though you guys have actually maintained a mature and VERY interesting argument for once without it getting out of hand… Quite a rarity these days in forums. Good to see you both you guys are very passionate about the health and well beings of the animals you look after and you’re willing to make a stand and back yourselves up and all with the animal’s well being kept at the forefront. Well done!


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Absoliutely right, I don't class it as an argument but a debate. A debate has as a minimum 2 opposing sides, in this case both sides are aiming for and achieving the same end result. I fully see the advantages of both sides but choose to use only one.
Just to clarify one thing though I never use bulbs at night, all heating to sub adult/adult snakes gets turned off at night all year round.


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 14, 2007)

Good one Dave 
he he he 
you deserve a medal for deplomacy ,
,i must say that it is a benefit living up here , i dont use thermostats in my cages ,
but i sure would if i lived down at Brissy or further south and would set them up to the best of my ability etc
prefferring to use as many 40 watt blue bulbs at one end to creat the thermal gradient needed etc and staying away from the higher watt bulbs , 
they cause too many burns,
but nothing is fool proof and accidents can happen , 
we all want the best for our reptiles and can have our own points of view etc ,
plenty of good points for and against the thermostats, 
thank god they are 99% reliable, as all our incubators rely on them,
todays technology is great,
PEACE MAN 
cheers 
Roger


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## TrueBlue (Jul 14, 2007)

a healthy debate is good for the soul.

na na na, youd have to be the mother boa, hang on, no on second thoughts NO copulating at all. it just wouldnt work. haha.

ravensgait, why do you say that light bulbs are more dangerous, i find it the other way, heat mats and cord burn out from time to time and can burn the whole collection down in the process, a blown light bulb cant do any thing.??
Ive been using bulbs for nearly twenty years and have NEVER had a burn on a snake, so that is not an issue.


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## ravensgait (Jul 14, 2007)

Boa yeah kind of figured that ,brought it up again that way as my question earlier in the thread was ignored.

recharge want to lay money on which is more dangerous to use to heat a cage IE Heat pad (panels are even safer) or a light bulb..

I'll ask this again since I didn't get an answer before. Why does it seem that so many folks down your way use lights to heat their cages??? wouldn't ask if I wasn't interested in the answer. Be nice or I'll make you look at more baby Jag and Chondro pictures . Randy


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## TrueBlue (Jul 14, 2007)

when i started keeping bulbs were pretty much all that was avaiable that was reliable enough.
Ive fine tuned using them so that there is no problem at all with using them and as i said cant see how they are un safe.? Why do you say they are dangerous.??

Oh dont really like jags and got plenty of gtps, so post away lol.


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## ravensgait (Jul 14, 2007)

Well you could ask your local fireman or the insurance company that covers your house.. Lights are far more prone to failure add to that the possibility of the snake breaking one(even with a cover it is more likely) or splashing water on one and bang glass all over again and serious fire hazard ETC ETC Not to mention the cost to operate a bulbs is far higher and it has a far shorter life span. You mention Facts well these are real facts check it out.

If you've been keeping for that long then why are you using bulbs?? I'd hate to see my electric bill if I was using bulbs with all my critters.. It bothers me that you recommend bulbs to newbies as they are a great way to kill a snake.. Please tell me you don't use lights on your chondro's???

Well heck then I'll post some of these then lol









well here's a Chondro or two anyway 








And just because he's cute one of last years Canary babies


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## waruikazi (Jul 14, 2007)

that was low raven. Really low. 

I hope ur ahsamed of youself


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## Recharge (Jul 14, 2007)

we don't even have access to heat panels here in aus.. so there's your answer for that.

heat cords are fine, but these too can be dangerous if not set up properly, a 100w heat cord will easily burn just about anything. 

heat mats, well, we've had a spare of failures in recent months were they've almost caused fires, and sever snakes were killed.

so yea, there is no 100% sure fire way that doesn't involve risk. 
even a lack of the right heat can lead to RI or other problems.

then there is the whole deal with cage size, big cages don't have an overheating issue, while smaller ones can. 

the blanket statement that thermostats kill or are an unreasonable risk is hogwash.
it's totally dependant on what you keep, how you keep and what enclosures you use.

more dangerous ravensgait? well, I'd have to say arrogance would be more dangerous, so would assuming what and how others tend their animals.

there is always risk, it's a part of life, even reasonable risk.
you talk about such things, well, would having the animals in their true natural setting be the optimum? but then, you couldn't keep reps then, could you?


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## waruikazi (Jul 14, 2007)

My method has no risk  I don't use any artificial heat.


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## Recharge (Jul 14, 2007)

so obviously you don't live in a place that has below 0 temps eh? 
how nice for you, but what about people who do? should they simply not keep reptiles from other areas? seriously, expand your mind a little, we are in different places, with different animals, with different requirements.


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## ravensgait (Jul 14, 2007)

Recharge I didn't at all get the last part of your post ??

Sure there is risk never said there wasn't but why not reduce the risk if you can?? Isn't that the responsible thing to do?? Randy


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## ravensgait (Jul 14, 2007)

Lets not talk about below zero burrr I'm originally from Montana . serious snake sickles lol Randy


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## Recharge (Jul 14, 2007)

and how far do you go randy? I'm sure there are safer methods still, if you want to spend the cash.

I personally am not well to do in the funds steaks, should that mean I should over extend my resources for a little more safety? get a more expensive car? better house security? 24h monitoring? how far do you go? 
have a look at my setup, no chance of an exploding bulb, double layer protection against contact burns, and a large area for better heat gradient and, in the most trafficked area of the house.
how much further should I go?

there is responsible, then there's fanatical.


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## hazzard (Jul 14, 2007)

Recharge,

We certainly do have access to heat panels for 1 from http://www.herptrader.com.au/

Pro-heat panels can also be imported easily in 240 volt from the USA. 10 years guarentee, no thermal burns, the utimate for GTP's. I've started installing these in numerous enclosures!


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## Recharge (Jul 14, 2007)

> These are Radiant Panel heaters that can heat up larger areas for reptiles, birds or animals. The front surface of these heaters are moderately hot so they should be fixed on ceilings or walls where animals or birds etc. will not come into contact with the front surface.



so, can still burn right?
and importing eh? yep, that sure is easy access... :lol:
not quite the 'walk into pet shop and purchase' ease I'd prefer 

edit.. hmm I really need to sew some heat cords into my ugg boots for these cold nights too


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## SLACkra (Jul 14, 2007)

interestingly enough i believe the CFA investigators are blaming my house fire on 40watt party globes that i had heating the cockroaches. The theory is they were nocked over by rats or mice or somehting along those lines that would have been attracted to the roach containers. 40watt light bulbs really are quite able to start fires.

Andrew


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## TrueBlue (Jul 14, 2007)

i disagree on that one ravensgait, ive seen heat mats and heat cord burn out and cause fires but NEVER seen or heard of a blown light bulb cause a fire.? please explain.!!

I can heat 5-7 tanks with 2 x 25 watt light bulbs, probally cost a few cents a day, very inexpensive.

Like ive said ive used them for nearly 20 years and bred everything from elapids to colurbrids to pythons, in fact ive never raised a snake and not bred it.? And NEVER had a burn on any snake.

IMO they are far less dangerous than most other forms of heating, hell if they were as bad as you say, houses would be burning down everyday all over the world from the millions of light bulbs being used.

And yes ive kept greens with lights and they thrive.


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## cement (Jul 14, 2007)

like slack said, it was probably knocked over,with the glass smashed and the element still intact, theres your fire. I been building houses for 20 years and VERY rarely, an incandescent bulb will pop, shattering the glass. In fact ive only ever seen it happen once in my 40 years of life. and i think a snake would have a high chance of surviving the hot glass if found early enough. And if your light is covered or caged it wont stick its nose in the socket so there is no way it would get electrocuted.


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Randy, the main issue we have here is that we are about 10 years behind with our husbandry techniques here. I am trying to find a source of affordable heat panels if you can point me toward someone willing to export ?
I have started using small low wattage down light for lighting only.
You might as well just show us the Jag photo's anyway, I guess a few people might possibly want to see them ;-)



ravensgait said:


> Boa yeah kind of figured that ,brought it up again that way as my question earlier in the thread was ignored.
> 
> recharge want to lay money on which is more dangerous to use to heat a cage IE Heat pad (panels are even safer) or a light bulb..
> 
> I'll ask this again since I didn't get an answer before. Why does it seem that so many folks down your way use lights to heat their cages??? wouldn't ask if I wasn't interested in the answer. Be nice or I'll make you look at more baby Jag and Chondro pictures . Randy


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## hazzard (Jul 14, 2007)

boa said:


> Randy, the main issue we have here is that we are about 10 years behind with our husbandry techniques here. I am trying to find a source of affordable heat panels if you can point me toward someone willing to export ?
> I have started using small low wattage down light for lighting only.
> You might as well just show us the Jag photo's anyway, I guess a few people might possibly want to see them ;-)



Boa the best heat panels are from pro-heat. They cost you a bit around 200 -250 AUD imported but are the bees neez. No light globes ever! You simply email them but they want to know cage dimensions, enclosure material and species to be kept. Then they work out the panel suitable.

I have imported about a dozen and Nephrurus has just got some as well.

PM me if you want more info!


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

Excellent, thanks for that. I'll shoot you off a PM tomorrow.


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## Recharge (Jul 14, 2007)

$200-250 for heating.. ouch... 
that's way out of my tiny budget..


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## Retic (Jul 14, 2007)

I noticed on their website they start at $65US.


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## ravensgait (Jul 15, 2007)

Recharge, the thing is that you save quite a bit on your electric bill . If you have a number of animals the pads and panels pay for themselves in what you save on electricity and used with a thermostat you save even more. Here's an option http://www.bigappleherp.com/Big-Apple-Desert-Rays-Radiant-Heat-Panels# I started using some of these a few years back, Not as nice as full up heat panels but they work and work well. Like Pro Heat panels they never get hot enough to burn, you can hold your hand to them when they are on at full power. They can be used in the cage unlike most heat pads..I use them with reflective tape behind them to make them more efficient. the photo below is one of their large ones that is heating two connected 2X2feet by 3 foot cages. 

Not knocking yours or anyone else's methods of keeping their animals just pointing out that there are other ways and some might be a bit safer. As time goes by and people learn even more about these critters new methods and materials will appear. I've been into this for almost 30 years(OK over 30 years) and have seen some serious changes in how we keep these animals and the vast majority of changes have been for the better..Randy

TB for someone who doesn't use heat pads you sure seem to torch a bunch of them. You know your wrong but can't admit it so what can I say to you?? Not a thing that will likely matter but I can post an opposing view when you go on your anti Thermostats and now heat panels and pad tirades. Randy


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## ravensgait (Jul 15, 2007)

boa said:


> Randy, the main issue we have here is that we are about 10 years behind with our husbandry techniques here. I am trying to find a source of affordable heat panels if you can point me toward someone willing to export ?
> I have started using small low wattage down light for lighting only.
> You might as well just show us the Jag photo's anyway, I guess a few people might possibly want to see them ;-)


 

Here are a few links.. Hard to change when you have people saying that the change will kill your critters.......Randy

http://www.pro-products.com/proheat.html
http://www.bigappleherp.com/Big-Apple-Desert-Rays-Radiant-Heat-Panels#
http://www.beanfarm.com/store/agora.cgi


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## Retic (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks Randy, I like the look of those Big Apple heat panels. I assume they work in a different way to the more usual heat mats ? I will have to look into those, good price too.

What you need to remember is some of our older members are a bit set in their ways, Rob has only just moved on from heating with acetylene lamps ;-)


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## Stealth_Raptor (Jul 15, 2007)

... Can someone explain what is going on here?

Due to my understanding, a PROPERLY USED thermostat just make sure that the temperature don't exceed or drop too low, rather than being a fixed rate. Not to mention it is designed to be a safety equipment in herptile keeping as well. This is from talking to a few Ball Python breeders in my area.

A lot of the respectable breeders I know use top-end quality dual thermostat to make sure that if one fail, there is backup unit ready to kick in.

The problem with electrical fires is the quality of the product in question and how it is used, rather than than the whole practice itself. There is a reason why heating units are recommended to have air space between the unit and the surfaces that they are heating.


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## Retic (Jul 15, 2007)

No I don't think I can explain what is going on LOL.

I totally agree, a good quality thermostat is a piece of safety equipment and when properly used will give years of peace of mind. Of course they CAN fail but we could also be hit by a bus. 
My whole argument has not been the merits or otherwise of the cage design Rob uses as that has been well proven over a lot of years but rather the assertion that a thermostat can endanger a snakes life and even shorten it's life span. A wrongly used thermostat can obviously cause problems but that is a result of poor husbandry not poor equipment.


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## xycom (Jul 15, 2007)

Randy, 

where do you buy those heat pads from? 
do you buy them direct from Big Apple?
can you put them under things like tubs and stuff?
and how do they compare to heat lights? If I use a 150W IR light what size would be equivelent?



Per


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## TrueBlue (Jul 15, 2007)

ravensgait,-????? dont know what your on about there mate ive never torched a heat pad.??
How do i know im wrong.??? You still havnt explained to me how bulbs are more dangerous than other heat sources.?? Can you do that, or are you all talk.
I asked my neighbour whos a sparky and he also disagrees with that.
The most common cause of house fires are, candles, cooking, and electrical appliances, heat mats, cord and panels all fall into the appliance catagory, light bulbs dont even get a mention.
So could you please explain to me how bulbs are more dangerous, or is it you that is wrong and know it, but cant accept the fact.???

Sorry mate but imo im right on this one.


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## Stealth_Raptor (Jul 15, 2007)

The problem with fires starting with heat sources is that people either put weight on them or don't let the air circulate; which is why bulbs don't normally start fire. Both of these problems are easily solvable.


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## junglepython2 (Jul 15, 2007)

I can't see how bulbs could cause so many fires, every house has plenty of them and the only fires I have heard caused by them was due to dodgy home job wiring which can cause fires with any appliance.


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## Ramsayi (Jul 15, 2007)

ravensgait,can you supply some basking temp details at various distances.
Running flat out what does the surface temps of those panels get up to then the temp at say 6 inches,1ft then 2ft.

I dont see how they would much radiate heat downwards at all so you might get a warm area directly under them for a short distance but the rest of the cage and indeed the air in the cage would be close to ambient room temps.

Some of the info on them says "Uses up to 80% less electricity than other heating systems, costing only pennies a day to operate." However that claim is very misleading as most dont state how many watts the panels draw.

All our enclosures get heated with 50W globes so as far as economical goes you cant get much better than that.


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## ravensgait (Jul 15, 2007)

LOL guys most bulbs used in a houses or what have you don't have snakes and lizards breaking them, getting water on them ETC ETC. Why not take one of each down to your local fire department and ask them their opinions lol just don't tell them where you live or the name of the company that carries your home insurance.

Boa,XYcom,, I use them much the same as heat panels, I use them in a few different ways, One like in the photo above is just with reflective tape behind it to reflect more heat the way I want it to go. That cage has two more above it and the spot above the heat panel(floor of cage above) is around 78 degrees F (I suck at temp conversions so wont try) The perch right under the panel is right around 88 F. These are set up in my basement which is cool and the panel keeps the bottom cage floor in the low 70s. The other way I use these is to use half inch reflective foam(commonly used for insulation) I use the same reflective tape to tape the pad to a piece of this foam . Helps to keep from losing heat out the back of the panel. 

These pads are not designed for under tank use they can be used in the cages and set up where the snake can come into contact with them and not have to worry about burns. I've used them mounted to the inside top of the cage, the sides and even the sides down at the bottom. I've also used them as heat in Racks. I use heat Tape in much the same way as these panels and have started using heat rope in the last year or so and I like how it works as well. Panels like Pro Heat type are better in some ways but you can't do as much with them as you can with these thin panels.

Boa I order right from them, they are easy to deal with. If you want I can get you links to other companies but I think they are the only company that has a thin panel like that... Randy


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## Ramsayi (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks for that ravensgait.How many watts are they rated at? 


Here are the conversions,
The perch directly under the panel gets to around 31C
The floor in the cage above the panel gets to around 25.5C
and the floor in the bottom cage is around 22C (72F)

Based on that info I would think that the animals spend most if not all of their time on the perch directly under the ceiling panel as all the other temps are nowhere near their prefered body temp.


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## ravensgait (Jul 15, 2007)

Ramsayi, I use mostly the larger 23X11 inch panels and they are rated at 56 watts . I usually run them at about half to 3/4 power so say somewhere around 35 to40 watts. No they don't throw heat as well as a regular panel such as pro heat's but the work a lot better than heat tape or a regular heat pad of the same wattage in throwing heat. I don't pretend to understand the difference in these and regular heat pads but there is a pretty big one. They heat objects that are under them some what like sitting in the sun which works well for Carpets and I use them in some of my other Morelia's cages. I think the thing I like best about them is they can be mounted flat IE they are not as thick as normal heat panels and don't stick out..

I've noticed that each snake has a different temp preference . Some like it much cooler and others warmer just like us I guess..Randy


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## Helikaon (Jul 15, 2007)

stary boy said:


> O DEARY ME!
> 
> It seems ive started anopther thermostat debate!! I already did that last year, that wasnt the urpose of this thread. I just wanted to know why males could only produce viable sperm when its cold and what happens to the female when the temps are down so as they make little egg shaped babies :shock::shock::shock:


i'd assume they are the same as any other animal in viable gamete cell production in being that they have a very slight temperature tolerence. take a dog for example who has abdomen retained testicles these are then maintined at 38 degrees and the sperm produced are not viable. maybe it is simply that sperm produced by the male at its usualy summer temperature are denatured and simply not viable for breeding or atleast the viability has been reduced.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 15, 2007)

I wonder if I should let true blue know that his entire collection of Green tree pythons are currently housed in enclosures fitted out with heat panels. Relax Rob its all good.

Cheers Dave


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## Retic (Jul 15, 2007)

Dave, I hope they aren't connected to a thermostat, he'll have a heart attack


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## fishead (Jul 15, 2007)

Hey there guys, an electrical engineer told me that a dimming thermostat works by resistance and anything that is running off it will be drawing it's full wattage capacity at all times. 
Can anyone confirm that?
Has anybody out there had a microclimate thermostat crap itself?


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 15, 2007)

Boa ,I would rather keep that bit a secret, I mean I just couldn't be that cruel to him he is messed up enough is our young Robby..


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## waruikazi (Jul 15, 2007)

Recharge said:


> so obviously you don't live in a place that has below 0 temps eh?
> how nice for you, but what about people who do? should they simply not keep reptiles from other areas? seriously, expand your mind a little, we are in different places, with different animals, with different requirements.



My mind is expanded plenty. Read all of my other posts, you will not find me saying that anybody is doing the wrong thing in regards to husbandry. And lots of IMO's


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## bigguy (Jul 15, 2007)

Brian Barnett of the Herp Shop has these heat panels available on his web site. They work really well mounted on the roof or the walls


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## CodeRed (Jul 15, 2007)

fishead said:


> Hey there guys, an electrical engineer told me that a dimming thermostat works by resistance and anything that is running off it will be drawing it's full wattage capacity at all times.
> Can anyone confirm that?
> Has anybody out there had a microclimate thermostat crap itself?


 
Thats incorrect fishhead. The dimmer stats work by chopping the main signal part way through the cycle.


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## fishead (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks Steve. Makes me feel a bit better mate. Green it up and all that.


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## MrBredli (Jul 15, 2007)

Are you sure CodeRed? I remember wiring up some light dimmers about 6 months ago, and i'm sure somewhere on the packaging it said something along the lines of what fishead was saying, although i don't think it uses full capacity when dimming, but it was quite high compared to the actual output.


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## MrBredli (Jul 15, 2007)

Here's a little something i just found on the net...

Dimmer switches can save energy but beware, a light dimmed down to one quarter of its input still uses half the energy.


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## Retic (Jul 15, 2007)

Yeah I can understand that, no point making it worse for the poor old fella. 



PilbaraPythons said:


> Boa ,I would rather keep that bit a secret, I mean I just couldn't be that cruel to him he is messed up enough is our young Robby..


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## Hickson (Jul 15, 2007)

I think its time to finish this discussion, we seem to have got away from the thermostat issue and are now discussing different heating methods. If anyone wants to continue discussing heating methods, feel free to start another thread.

I think what has been established (again) is that different systems work for different people, and the details of those systems are influenced by their location and climate. 

Newbies can learn how to keep reptiles alive, and even learn how to breed, from reading books on the subject - but until they understand what is required (as opposed to copying what is in a book), they aren't going to be as successful as the more experienced breeders. 

And it's the more experienced breeders who have been keeping herps for many, many years and know what they are doing who have been the most active participants in this discussion.

Here endeth the lesson.



Hix


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