# thorny devil



## tomc1992 (May 6, 2008)

are we even allowed to keep thorny devil's in captivitiy i have seen them soo much and never thought of owning one are we allowed to, if so where can we aqquire one from or a couple


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## andyscott (May 6, 2008)

You cant have them in Vic, not sure about other states.
They are very hard to keep though, they only eat ants. So feeding is very difficult.
Cheers Andy.


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## dintony (May 6, 2008)

I don't think so. They are extremely hard to care for in captivity because of their eating requirements.


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## tomc1992 (May 6, 2008)

ahh alrighty shoulda had a look at the whole , only eat ants thing ahaha thanks anyway


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## Trouble (May 6, 2008)

I havent heard of that many in captivity... they only eat one type of* black* ant, and its only found in the middle of Aus!!
Good luck finding if anyone breeds them


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## snakecharma (May 6, 2008)

i have heard of 1-2 people that are keeping them but yes the eating requirments would be very hard to sort out in captivity 

cheerz


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## Dragontamer (May 6, 2008)

how hard are the ants to breed? i know they can eat 1000s a day but if you had 4 or 5 established hills. i for one wouldnt mind putting in the extra effort to own such a magnificent creature


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## grimbeny (May 6, 2008)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/search/search-id/924878


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## hornet (May 6, 2008)

Trouble said:


> I havent heard of that many in captivity... they only eat one type of* black* ant, and its only found in the middle of Aus!!
> Good luck finding if anyone breeds them



Thats a common misconception. In the wild the feed mainly from ants in the genus Iridiomyrmex but will take basicly any small black ants that walk in trails. I know of one private breeder and a mate of mine is the keeper of them at a wildlife park. They normally get fed 6-8 times per day so they are very time consuming.


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## mrmikk (May 9, 2008)

What feeding methods do they use Hornet, and do you know how/where they source the ants? As in, do you know if they breed the ants themselves, or collect elsewhere?


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## Jen (May 9, 2008)

there was an article in the aust rep mag about molochs, not sure which volume tho


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## hornet (May 9, 2008)

my mate, joe at the alice springs desert park who wrote the article, uses the "can it" method. Tin can, plastic mesh lining the sides, cat food smeared in it. Its then placed near an active ant trail where it fills with ants then a lid is placed on and transported to the exibit


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## Miss_Croft (May 10, 2008)

I have never kept thorny devils – but would think they might be able to take some other substitute food like Mazuri Insectivore food. https://www.mazuri.com/Home.asp?Products=2&Opening=2
Or even what the zoos feed echidna’s. They might even take pinhead crickets or flightless fruit flies http://www.timberlinefisheries.com/fruit flies.htm.

But right now there is no incentive to determine an effective husbandry method of keeping thorny devils. (There are laws against keeping thorny devils in Australia). I am sure if some were smuggled to the US or Europe – where there are no restriction on keeping Australian reptiles – then people would find a way to keep them. They are very pretty and unique animals and I am sure they would be the jewel in any reptile collection. And like most Australian animals – once the feeding/environment hurdle is cleared they will live and breed well in captivity.


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## Miss_Croft (May 10, 2008)

For those of you who believe reading about an exotic animal will make you want to keep one – STOP READING and go onto a different thread. For those of you who want to learn more about the Australian herps by leveraging all available information – keep on reading. 

Here in the US we have horned lizards – they are very similar to the Australian thorny devil as in the wild they predominately only eat one type of ants – harvester ants. 

Anyways it is not illegal to keep horned lizards in some states and people have learnt how to keep them as a pet. Here is a forum on the horned lizard – it might help a little if you are thinking about the logistics of keeping thorny devils.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/forum.php?catid=52

A little about keeping them as pets
http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Lizard, Horned Toad.htm

As mentioned before like many Australian animals there is no incentive to learning how to keep or breeding the Australian animals. 

My guess is you will be able to supplement their food with just about any small insect that will crawl up to them (pinhead crickets, flightless fruit flies and even small mealworms. I am sure they will make great pets if the Australian authorities allowed them as house hold pets.


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## notechistiger (May 10, 2008)

Just because one species can adapt to another food source doesn't mean the other can or will. Also, I know a few people that had attempted to supplement their food, and nada. So, as current things stand, your guess would be wrong.


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## hornet (May 10, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> (There are laws against keeping thorny devils in Australia).



Where did you hear that? yes is some states they may not be on the lists but most states they can be kept. They have tried feeding them on various other food sources, roaches, crix, wax worms. They accepted the alternate food but died after a short period.


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## jessb (May 10, 2008)

I don't know about keeping them at home but I saw an awesome one at Castlehill Expo. Maybe whoever keeps that one could give you some advice? 

Are their "thorns" actually sharp? Or just for show?


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## Miss_Croft (May 11, 2008)

*hornet* – If you cannot buy them from the open market – ie there are no captive bred animals then they cannot be kept. My understanding is they are not on the list of animals the “general public” can keep on license in most Australian states. 

*notechistiger* – can you shed some light on the said attempts of keeping thorny devils – Where were the thorny devils sourced?
How old were the thorny devils when sourced?
How long did the thorny devils live captive care?
What was learnt about keeping thorny devils?
What were the signs and symptoms before death – did they waist away slowly - start to fit before?
Did they feed the thorny devils on only captive bred insects or a mixture of wild caught and captive bred? 

I still believe a change of diet is possible – there just has to be the incentive. A change to another captive bred crawling insects may be possible. (doubt wax worms are any good as they are too high in fat). 

Also if they were wild caught animals what effort was made to rid the thorny devils of their parasite load – studies have shown wild animals have a very high parasite load – if put under stress or kept in an enclosed area could potentially kill the wild caught thorny devil (Much like wasting disease often seen in wild caught reptiles here in the US).


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## hornet (May 11, 2008)

there are private breeders, i know 1 and have heard of others. In qld you can keep em, SA you need a specialist endorsment to keep them, NSW i'm not sure but sure you can keep them on a specialist permit, VIC probably cant keep em, no idea bout NT and WA i'd say no. The animals i know that were attemped to change over to a more readly available diet were all captive bred young. As i said they ate the alternative food source but all died, longest lasting one year. I guess its something in the ants that is needed for them to live, i have been thinking about if they could survive on something like crickets if they had their diet supplemented with ants every few feeds to provide them what other food items are lacking.


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## Chimera (May 11, 2008)

Miss Croft, on your point about legalities you are a bit off the mark. All you have to do in NSW is prove that there is a legitimate source from another state to get a species code (obviously there would need to be a bit of a review given the difficulty in keeping the species, but it is certainly possible).

Both private keepers and institutions are reluctant to detail failures in text, however you do hear a lot about failures in keeping this species. I know that Sydney Wildlife World recently lost their thorny devils.

In regards to your statement about their similarity to Phrynosoma, I think you'll find that Moloch is far less opporunistic in their foraging behavior (Phrynosoma is known to take beetles in lieu of harvester ants, and known to take multiple species of ants). Further to this, the behavior of small black ants in regards to trails is vastly different to what I have seen of harvester ants (i.e. they form a clear line over a very specific trail).

To assume that no-one in Australia has tried to supplement or change their diet and haven't accounted for parasite load in wild animals is just plain arrogant. But maybe they just need your years of experience.


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## cris (May 11, 2008)

notechistiger said:


> Just because one species can adapt to another food source doesn't mean the other can or will. Also, I know a few people that had attempted to supplement their food, and nada. So, as current things stand, your guess would be wrong.



Yeah but this was done in Australia we are infants of herpetology. Thats why they will only learn how to keep them if exported to other countries, you obviously dont know much  :lol:


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## Renagade (May 11, 2008)

my uncle kept them in the 80's. he was a a national parl ranger at Kalbarri WA. he would just keep and release because they were so time consuming. these are some pics from castlew hill show. x


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## wiz-fiz (May 11, 2008)

hornet said:


> there are private breeders, i know 1 and have heard of others. In qld you can keep em, SA you need a specialist endorsment to keep them, NSW i'm not sure but sure you can keep them on a specialist permit, VIC probably cant keep em, no idea bout NT and WA i'd say no. The animals i know that were attemped to change over to a more readly available diet were all captive bred young. As i said they ate the alternative food source but all died, longest lasting one year. I guess its something in the ants that is needed for them to live, i have been thinking about if they could survive on something like crickets if they had their diet supplemented with ants every few feeds to provide them what other food items are lacking.


 

maybe you could try and hand feed them and go 10 ants = 1 alternative food source or something


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## hornet (May 11, 2008)

willia6 said:


> maybe you could try and hand feed them and go 10 ants = 1 alternative food source or something



where did you get to?


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## wiz-fiz (May 11, 2008)

hornet said:


> I guess its something in the ants that is needed for them to live, i have been thinking about if they could survive on something like crickets if they had their diet supplemented with ants every few feeds to provide them what other food items are lacking.


 
that part


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## Miss_Croft (May 11, 2008)

Welcome back Willia6 

Renagade - thanks heaps for the great photos - they are very pretty lizards....


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## Frozenmouse (May 12, 2008)

as far as i know a breeder here in the nt kept thorny devils with limited success he had 6 enclosures each with an established colony with one of the 2 different types of ants they eat and the deviles were moved between the enclosures eventually they all died after months of very hard work.


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