# ID



## Rattler (Nov 24, 2011)

I found this on the footpath this morning in the middle of sydney. Was under powerlines so i dont know if a bird had it and dropped it or where it came from. What the hell is it? Some sort of corn snake?


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## dtulip10 (Nov 24, 2011)

Californian king snake ????


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 24, 2011)

bandy bandy?

Face doesn't seem quite right though


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## Poggle (Nov 24, 2011)

Not a bandy bandy..

Was thinking possibility of native but now i can see pics definately not. Refer below post.


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## waruikazi (Nov 24, 2011)

Don't know what it is but it is definately an exotic.


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 24, 2011)

Are the white bands ever that well defined on those Poggle? It really does look like a californian king snake, wonder if it's a stolen illegal animal that someone threw out of a car window or something


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## saratoga (Nov 24, 2011)

Its a type of Kingsnake from the US. Very sad if this is not a windup!


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## Poggle (Nov 24, 2011)

i have seen some distinct markings on them but i am going with you decision. The dot on the back of head now i can see it does look like king snake species. 

View attachment 227417


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 24, 2011)

Yep, Kingsnake.


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## Rattler (Nov 24, 2011)

i googled *bandy bandy* and its similar, *stephensi*- not quite, *californian king*- i think it looks like one of these.

bit weird to find on the footpath


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Nov 24, 2011)

I have to agree with the californian king snake.


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## Poggle (Nov 24, 2011)

shame... all these exotics showing up.. What did you do with the body mate?


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 24, 2011)

Might be worth reporting the find to DECC, I know half the time they don't know their head from their you know what but even so I'd be giving them a call


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## RSPcrazy (Nov 24, 2011)

Yup, king snake, they are very common here (illegally of corse) I get a lot of people contacting me wanting to swap there king snakes for my Aussie stuff. 

My guess would be, it's escaped it's enclosure and gotten out side.

My mate (down the road from me) has found 2 corn snakes (on separate occasions) out in the open around his place, we called the police and they came and picked them up. This sort of thing is a lot more common then you think.


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## Poggle (Nov 24, 2011)

it is a shame though... imagine all the undetected herps getting in... I thought i saw the loch ness monster in my dam the other day...


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## Rattler (Nov 24, 2011)

could they ever establish in our wild?



Poggle said:


> shame... all these exotics showing up.. What did you do with the body mate?



nothing yet


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## Herpaderpa (Nov 24, 2011)

I know this has been concluded as a californian king snake... but just out of interest ... the stephens banded snake can be rather similar in appearance, though the shape of the head does differ enough for those with an eye for detail to tell the difference. 

But its worth noting, because stephens banded snake is venomous and on the vulnerable species list


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## moosenoose (Nov 24, 2011)

Was that the thong you smacked it with?


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 24, 2011)

The stephens is a bit broader in the face than this guy I tbhink. Apart from that has the stephens been found around Sydney? AVRU reckons it's limited to northern NSW


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## saratoga (Nov 24, 2011)

Herpaderpa said:


> the stephens banded snake can be rather similar in appearance, though the shape of the head does differ enough for those with an eye for detail to tell the difference.



Sorry, but you don't need an eye for detail to tell the difference here.....the differences are striking, as are those from a Bandy Bandy!


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## $NaKe PiMp (Nov 24, 2011)

haha how could anyone think thats a bandy bandy?? *facepalm*

anyway you can quite clearly see this snake has a loreal scale, we have very few colubrids in Australia and this king snake looks nothing like any of them.

what suburb was this in? let me guess western subrurbs? looks like some bogans pet they love exotics


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## Reptile_Maniac (Nov 24, 2011)

California King Snake! These guys are a relative of corn snakes!


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 24, 2011)

Herpaderpa said:


> I know this has been concluded as a californian king snake... but just out of interest ... the stephens banded snake can be rather similar in appearance, though the shape of the head does differ enough for those with an eye for detail to tell the difference.
> 
> But its worth noting, because stephens banded snake is venomous and on the vulnerable species list


There are a number of features that make Stephens’ Banded Snakes relatively easy to distinguish...

I reckon the colour of the bands is the simplest. Typically their bands are light to medium brown colour but can be more of a cream colour, particularly anteriorly. I have never seen or heard of one with all pure white bands.

Secondly, the head shape. SB has a flattened, broad head (typical of the genus) which is clearly distinct from the neck. Cal Kings and Bandy Bandys have a rounded head in cross-section, in line with the body. 

Banding on SBs stops at the ventrals while it goes all the way around on a Bandy Bandy and partially, for the most part, on a KC. 

The white areas on the head are differently positioned in each species and are quite distinctive if you get a clear view of the head details.

PS: It is probably worth noting that unbanded specimens of SBs are not uncommon.


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## Herpaderpa (Nov 24, 2011)

Maybe I should have made it clear I wasn't suggesting thats what this is, but that to those who are not familiar with snakes, they may be mistaken.


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## Cockney_Red (Nov 24, 2011)

Poggle said:


> it is a shame though... imagine all the undetected herps getting in... I thought i saw the loch ness monster in my dam the other day...


That would be the "your dam monster"....."Nessie" is in Loch Ness.....


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## redelapid (Nov 24, 2011)

could it be hoplocephalus bungaroides?


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 24, 2011)

Don't think the stripes are clear enough in that species, besides the king has the distinctive head spot and the head is narrower with th clear white band across the lower half of the face


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 24, 2011)

redelapid said:


> could it be hoplocephalus bungaroides?



No it couldn't...

J


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## Echiopsis (Nov 24, 2011)

Its a getula, you can um and aaaah all day but in the end it'll still be a getula. Nice snakes, pity its on the wrong continent.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 24, 2011)

snakeynewbie said:


> The stephens is a bit broader in the face than this guy I tbhink. Apart from that has the stephens been found around Sydney? AVRU reckons it's limited to northern NSW


Stephens Banded Snakes are found as far south as the inland northern extremies of greater Sydney.


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 24, 2011)

thanks


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 24, 2011)

redelapid said:


> could it be hoplocephalus bungaroides?


Google some pics for that and you will see why not.


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## snakelady-viper (Nov 24, 2011)

King snake looks like a bird drop with all the puncture marks or maybe a cat.

Stephens Banded snake very beautiful have attached pics of one


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## jase75 (Nov 24, 2011)

Definitely an exotic, looks like a King Snake.


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## Rattler (Nov 24, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> Was that the thong you smacked it with?


it was dead already. thong for reference lol



$NaKe PiMp said:


> what suburb was this in? let me guess western subrurbs? looks like some bogans pet they love exotics


Lidcombe, a few chinese and korean live around here.


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## JasonL (Nov 24, 2011)

There are hundreds of them being bred around Sydney, and thousands of Corn snakes, everything is here and being bred in large numbers... exotic "rescues" if you want to call them that are very common and have been for a few years now.



Rattler said:


> could they ever establish in our wild?



wouldn't be the first exotic to take hold in a foreign land...


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## $NaKe PiMp (Nov 25, 2011)

speaking of stephens bandeds, sometimes they have no banding,


anyway another ID thread gone the typical APS route

step 1. post pics of creature

step 2 have at least a couple people who have no idea try and id it by guesswork

step 3. someone quietly ids it correctly but is ignored for at least another page by the people guessing.

step 4. fight club starts when someone pops in and quote posts the people who are guessing that they are retarded

step 5 another poster correctly id,s

step 6 people who where guessing defend there earlier posts ( im just learning,go easy on me etc)and argue with the fightclub people of authority

step 6 someone else pops in a post and agrees on the correct id

step 7 few more posts agreing on corect id

step 8 debate on what other snakes look like the snake in question but are not the snake

step 9 people in step 8 told that the snakes they mentioned look nothing like the snake in ID pic

step 10, much click liking of posts goes on,especialy of senior memebers contributing posts


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## Rattler (Nov 25, 2011)

lol


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## Pufferfish (Nov 25, 2011)

Spot on Snakepimp. 
I don't think most exotics could cope with our ecosystem, too many variables that lead to death for them, although you never know. 
JasonL is telling the truth, people have come up with the notion that Corn Snakes and other common exotics have been able to make their own wild breeding population in and around Sydney, that is BS it's just that there is so many captive ones escaping.


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## Fuscus (Nov 25, 2011)

Side by side they are easy to differentiate - OP should report it

California King Snake






Stephan's Banded





Bandy Bandy







Pufferfish said:


> ... although you never know.


although you never know


Pufferfish said:


> JasonL is telling the truth, people have come up with the notion that Corn Snakes and other common exotics have been able to make their own wild breeding population in and around Sydney, that is BS it's just that there is so many captive ones escaping.


But now you *DO* know?


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 25, 2011)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> haha how could anyone think thats a bandy bandy?? *facepalm*...


I had intended to let this go. However your “typical ID thread” scenario bore so little resemblance to the reality of this thread, it made me wonder why you were posting. Hence, I am compelled to ask, why you feel the need to make statements like the above? If you have the knowledge and you want people to realise that, why not put it to good use instead of just slagging somebody off. For example, it would have been the perfect opportunity to explain what a loreal scale is and its significance and use in ID. That way people can start making correct IDs when they can see the relevant scales on a of a roughie or keelback photo. Or they can pick the difference between a whip snake shed from that of a green tree. Or mum knows whether to keep the dog inside and warn the kids when she finds a fresh snake shed in the garden. There is any number of situations where it might come in handy. I can assure you that it would be appreciated by a much wider audience than just your mates.





Herpaderpa said:


> Maybe I should have made it clear I wasn't suggesting that’s what this is, but that to those who are not familiar with snakes, they may be mistaken.


I was aware of that. I was only trying to support what you said by pointing out how to readily distinguish them, as I figure that my help reduce likelihood of those not so familiar clobbering a Stephen’s Banded thinking it is an exotic. 





Pufferfish said:


> ...I don't think most exotics could cope with our ecosystem, too many variables that lead to death for them, although you never know....


Didn’t they say that about the Cane Toad before they released them for the sixth time? I recommend you do a little research on Californian King Snakes before making comments such as that. They are capable of occupying habitats from marshes to deserts, from grasslands through to forest, and it generalist feeder, taking anything from invertebrates to frogs, lizards, snakes and birds to small mammals. Exotics often lack specific predators present in their place of origin and captives mostly lacking the pathogens or their vectors and the parasites which all help to keep their populations in check on their home turf

When you have a highly adaptable, generalist species kept in high numbers in a specific region and regularly escaping or being released, you are well and truly into the high risk category for establishment and spread of that exotic.

*Rattler*, you really should let the relevant authorities know about it. A bit of a pain but important.

Blue


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## Pufferfish (Nov 25, 2011)

.


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## 43nickw (Nov 25, 2011)

i saw one of theese last year when buying a bhp. the guy had two of them and a side winder, i really think it is a kingsnake. being a farmer have seen tones of bandy bandy snakes is not one of them.


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 25, 2011)

As a teeny image on an iphone very easy to mistake for a bandy bandy when all you can see is a snake with black and white stripes. Once able to view as a larger image it's very clear it has a broader head(although not as broad as a stephens) and the characteristic white dot and white under the chin.


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## waruikazi (Nov 25, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I had intended to let this go. However your “typical ID thread” scenario bore so little resemblance to the reality of this thread, it made me wonder why you were posting. Hence, I am compelled to ask, why you feel the need to make statements like the above? If you have the knowledge and you want people to realise that, why not put it to good use instead of just slagging somebody off. For example, it would have been the perfect opportunity to explain what a loreal scale is and its significance and use in ID. That way people can start making correct IDs when they can see the relevant scales on a of a roughie or keelback photo. Or they can pick the difference between a whip snake shed from that of a green tree. Or mum knows whether to keep the dog inside and warn the kids when she finds a fresh snake shed in the garden. There is any number of situations where it might come in handy. I can assure you that it would be appreciated by a much wider audience than just your mates.
> 
> Blue



Blue the point of that post and the others similar are to discourage those who don't have a clue posting and wild guesses. Neither of which, imo, are ok in ID threads. 

The idea of giving people who have no clue information on how to key a snake out it just about pointless. Especially in the cases of differentiating an elapid from a colubrid, if you need to look for the loreal scale to tell the difference then you shouldn't be doing an ID.


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## dylan-rocks (Nov 25, 2011)

Open the dead snakes mouth(with care) and check if it has fangs or teeth...!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
and on a funny note:
its obviously a keelback


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## Fuscus (Nov 25, 2011)

dylan-rocks said:


> its obviously a keelback


Well ............ they do have stripes


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## Mister_Snakes (Nov 25, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> The idea of giving people who have no clue information on how to key a snake out it just about pointless. Especially in the cases of differentiating an elapid from a colubrid, if you need to look for the loreal scale to tell the difference then you shouldn't be doing an ID.



Amen

The odds of someone getting an incorrect ID from this site, then getting bitten is probably low, but imagine the potential outcry if it did happen!


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 25, 2011)

Since when does maintaining ignorance become a better option than education?

Do you really thing it is only half-witted incompetents that read these threads and therefore the small additional effort in informing them is not worth it?

The individual who posted Bandy Bandy posted it as a question. I would not categorise that as a “wild guess”. Now I am not going to presume that this particular person “hasn’t got a clue”, even though you may. 

I did not mention loreal scale – I simply used it as the most appropriate example to illustrate the point I was making. 

Seeing as how you mention it, this begs the question why loreal was mentioned at all (if it is not to be explained). It appears to be an example of using technical language to keep others in the dark. Now why might one do that? 

When you are talking about ID threads and danger, you efforts in posting would have been better directed at correcting the individual suggesting you open the mouth and check out the teeth. Now that is potentially dangerous and totally unnecessary. Dangerously venomous snakes can deliver a fatal dose even after death if a fang enters the skin and the area around the venom gland is being held and pressure – as might happen if you holding the snake up by its head to examine the teeth and it slips.

Bandy Bandys and Californian King Snakes are very similar in appearance and a snake in the wild may not be easy for an “expert” to distinguish straight off. Out in the open most of the key attributes are readily viewed and they behave very differently. So if you know what to look for they are readily distinguished. A dead snake (not too mangled), or photos of same, provide similar readily observable distinguishing features.

I cannot fathom the advantage to keeping people in the dark. Bandy Bandys are the only banded black and white (or dark reddish brown and white) Australian snake and the bands are go all the way around i.e. right across the ventrals. You do not have to be Einstein to take that on board. So one glimpse at the underbelly of the photo in the opening post immediately says this is an exotic snake. Instead of people saying they look nothing alike, which is incorrect and as I mentioned in another recent thread, can lead to field errors and potential catastrophe, explain the differences. Is that so hard?

If you wish to achieve responsible posting in ID threads, then encourage those who are not 100% certain to do as was done in this thread, place question marks after your suggestion. This should also be applied to non-snake threads where the stakes are not as high.

I am reminded of the slogan on the sex education resource kit used in WA state high schools: “If you think education is dangerous, try ignorance.” 

Blue



dylan-rocks said:


> Open the dead snakes mouth(with care) and check if it has fangs or teeth...!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
> and on a funny note:
> its obviously a keelback


Please note: This is DANGEROUS and UNNECESSARY.


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 25, 2011)

It was infact me that posted bandy bandy and also a clarifier saying the head didn't look right, if you infact scroll down further you'll see I clarified quite a few posts as to why it was infact a king. If you look down further still I did say that when I first looked at the pic I was on an iPhone and couldn't see the pic properly and quite frankly i don't think it's that big a stretch to suggest that a strongly black and white banded snake in the Sydney area may be a bandy bandy, the fact that i was unsure due to the size of the pic I was looking at at the time meant I added a question mark to indicate I wasn't sure from what i could see.


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## waruikazi (Nov 25, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Since when does maintaining ignorance become a better option than education?
> 
> Do you really thing it is only half-witted incompetents that read these threads and therefore the small additional effort in informing them is not worth it? I think the small additional information will be lost on an individual who can't look at a snake and tell instantly what family it is from.
> 
> ...



When the stakes can be potentially very high. People who are not 100% confident in there claims should say nothing at all. Sit back, read and learn.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 25, 2011)

_*Waruikazi,*

I think the small additional information will be lost on an individual who can't look at a snake and tell instantly what family it is from. I think the small additional information will be lost on an individual who can't look at a snake and tell instantly what family it is from._
_You have totally ignored the point. So what if it is lost on “an individual”? By providing diagnostic information those who are here to learn can do so. It appears that what you are saying is, for the sake of a few who probably should not be let loose anywhere near a snake, you would deprive all capable others who are interested in learning, of the opportunity to do. _

_I did not mention loreal scale – I simply used it as the most appropriate example to illustrate the point I was making. __You said it, ergo you mentioned it.... Again, you brought it up not me. But while we are on the topic why didn't you? And how would you describe the loreal scale in less technical terms?_
_My apoligies – what I should have said was that I was not the person to originate the issue of the loreal scale – which is a separate scale located between the one in contact with the nostril and the scale in front of and contacting the eye. Present in nearly all Australian Colubrids and absent in Elapids._

_I don't know that you noticed or not Blue, but i made my contributions to this thread before that comment went up._
_I do apologise. It was presumptuous of me to simply assume you has seen the post but not chosen to address it. Not only was I in error but I was slighting you personally (due to frustration but no excuse) and I genuinely apologise for having done so._

_IMO only 'experts' (people with the relevant training and or experience) should be commenting in identification threads._
_I shy away from the term “expert” and prefer the term competent. You will get no argument from me that those that are competent to make an ID should be the only ones to offer a genuine attempt. At the same time, I believe there is a place for people interested in learning to ID to “have a go”, so long as they make it eminently clear that this is the case. Where snakes are involved and there is any possibility of harm befalling the OP, there is absolutely no margin for error. I do accept that there is an argument for excluding learners from such IDs. However, I do believe that can this be overcome by some simple rules establishing clear expectations of posters._

_No blue they are not. I can post photos if you wish of other Australian snakes that are banded black and white. There are several that have the potential to knock you on your **** permanently. _
_The tone of your response here concerns me. That aside, I would prefer you actually post the photos to which you refer and let others be the judge. Do not be concerned about me. Any embarrassment will be short lived and well worth the learning experience._

_Think ignorance is bad? Try misinformation!_
_If you have ‘experts’ (your term) explaining their diagnostic methods, which is what I suggested, where does “misinformation” come from? _

_Aside from the above, I just want to reiterate that it is not appropriate to laugh at or belittle someone, simply because you know more than they do._

_Blue_

*EDIT:* Please diregard this post, as I was in error, and refer to my following post for a full explanation...




Pufferfish said:


> Last edited by Pufferfish; Today at 11:58 AM. Reason: Bluetongue can't read so why bother.


*Pufferfish*, Comments such as this, in the context of what has transpired, are commonly referred to as “clutching at straws”. Should you not understand the relevance of this particular saying to the situation at hand, I am more than happy to explain. Please, just let me know.

Blue


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## chilli-mudcrab (Nov 26, 2011)

Haven't you herpin dudes seen Up in smoke

Mellow 

Mellow


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 26, 2011)

Good movie. I must admit that I gave up smoking when I gave up smoking. So the only roaches around the house these days are the ones with six legs.





Pufferfish said:


> Last edited by Pufferfish; 25-Nov-11 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Bluetongue can't read so why bother.





Bluetongue1 said:


> _* Pufferfish*_, Comments such as this, in the context of what has transpired, are commonly referred to as “clutching at straws”. Should you not understand the relevance of this particular saying to the situation at hand, I am more than happy to explain. Please, just let me know.
> 
> Blue


 My apologies *Pufferfish*. Upon re-reading the thread I believe I misinterpreted the intent of your reference to my “inability to read.” So please disregard my previous post. The only reason I shall not delete it is I have been chided for doing so in the recent past. 

I assume your comment was in respect to my having apparently ignore your final qualifying phrase “although you never know”. What I should have done was to firstly point out that the comments you made do not apply in this instance and that can be verified with a little research. The other point I was going to make, but my post was already too long, was that the ability of an exotic to establish is not rare or unusual or even onlikely. You have only to look at the number of ferals in this country and we have one of the tightest quarantines in the world. When you start looking world-wide it is a bit scary how many exotics have established outside of their countries of origin. You may have heard of the term parallel evolution. This is where the same types of organisms from different places but occupying similar ecological niches, have remarkably similar structural and functional features. The point to take on board here is that you do get similar ecological conditions in different parts of the world and organisms adapted to these are predisposed to survive in those conditions when encountered elsewhere.

California, in particular, has some strong climatic similarities to significant parts of Australia. The intensity of the bushfires they have experienced in recent decades is primarily due to the presence of Australian eucalypts, having initially been planted and now having invaded their native forests. The climate suits them perfectly and without the natural predators and pests to keep them in check...

Blue

PS There is a difference between exotics that are merely able to establish and those that are invasive.


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## waruikazi (Nov 28, 2011)

_*Waruikazi,*

__You have totally ignored the point. So what if it is lost on “an individual”? By providing diagnostic information those who are here to learn can do so. It appears that what you are saying is, for the sake of a few who probably should not be let loose anywhere near a snake, you would deprive all capable others who are interested in learning, of the opportunity to do. If you choose to do that hen fine, more power to you. I choose not to until that information is requested of me for two reasons. First being that alot of people don't understand it, secondly is that to key a snake out you need to get pretty dang close to it. Much closer than i think it safe. And just an FYI, it has only been in the last 2 years that i have learnt what all these diagnostic characteristics are and beleive it or not my ID skills are no better for knowing them. Out of the 99 described species of elapid i could identify about 90 just from a picture, the rest with an exception of maybe two or three i could do with the aid of a locality. You don't need these diagnostic tools to id the majority of aussie snakes accurately. _

_My apoligies – what I should have said was that I was not the person to originate the issue of the loreal scale – which is a separate scale located between the one in contact with the nostril and the scale in front of and contacting the eye. Present in nearly all Australian Colubrids and absent in Elapids. Then i apologise for the mix up. _

_I do apologise. It was presumptuous of me to simply assume you has seen the post but not chosen to address it. Not only was I in error but I was slighting you personally (due to frustration but no excuse) and I genuinely apologise for having done so. Some posts can be frustrating. _

_I shy away from the term “expert” and prefer the term competent. You will get no argument from me that those that are competent to make an ID should be the only ones to offer a genuine attempt. At the same time, I believe there is a place for people interested in learning to ID to “have a go”, so long as they make it eminently clear that this is the case. Where snakes are involved and there is any possibility of harm befalling the OP, there is absolutely no margin for error. I do accept that there is an argument for excluding learners from such IDs. However, I do believe that can this be overcome by some simple rules establishing clear expectations of posters. I cannot disagree with you more here, if you don't know what the snake is then you need to button it and listen to what others are saying. Wait for the correct ID then ask your questions. There is nothing wrong with that. How would you feel if a poster needed a quick ID and gets a noob guess or skips over the qualifying 'But i'm a noob and i don't really know' statement and they cop a dangerous bite? I know i would feel pretty ordinary and pretty angry at the person taking the guess. I don't know how many times i've seen the question 'How do you tell a keelback and roughie apart?' and i am always happy to help out with easy identifiers._

_The tone of your response here concerns me. That aside, I would prefer you actually post the photos to which you refer and let others be the judge. Do not be concerned about me. Any embarrassment will be short lived and well worth the learning experience. Oh save me from the embarrasment! Mangrove snakes, carpet pythons, some death adders, shovel nosed snakes, other Hop species, sea kraits (which have been recorded in Australian waters) and a myriad of Hydrophids (sea snakes) can very accurately be described as snakes that are black with white banding. These aren't the best pictures but i'm only going to post my own photos.











_

_Think ignorance is bad? Try misinformation!_
_If you have ‘experts’ (your term) explaining their diagnostic methods, which is what I suggested, where does “misinformation” come from?*It comes when the people who have no idea get involved with the conversation! Have you read anything i have posted? *(That was a frustrated post)__Aside from the above, I just want to reiterate that it is not appropriate to laugh at or belittle someone, simply because you know more than they do. I agree. I have not belittled anyone in this thread. I even refrained from entering into this part of the conversation until i saw your post encouraging people who don't know to have a guess._

There is not alot that i disagree with you about Blue, you have about 20 years experience on me and know a whole lot more stuff than i do. But if i think you are wrong or inaccurate in what you or anyone else is saying, particularly when someones safety could be put at risk, i will put my thoughts forward any day of the week.


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## dtulip10 (Nov 28, 2011)

I am just gunna come back into this thread and say Where is my prize, 
i got the ID first.


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## waruikazi (Nov 28, 2011)

dtulip10 said:


> I am just gunna come back into this thread and say Where is my prize,
> i got the ID first.








:lol:


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 28, 2011)

*Waruikazi,*

You have used the term “misinformation’ to refer to “misidentification” – neither relevant or appropriiate under the circumstances. I was talking about “experts” having made a correct identification, helping those wishing to learn by informing others how they went about it i.e. providing information to enable correct identification. OK, that style of learning doesn’t suit you but there are others who have specifically requested it. Yet you still object, seeming based on some belief that anyone trying to learn how to ID or to get better at it, is going to start posting wild guesses in critical ID threads. Iguess we had best differ on that point because I have more faith in human nature than that. 

_I even refrained from entering into this part of the conversation until i saw your post encouraging people who don't know to have a guess._ I would appreciate you showing me exactly where I did that. I made the statement: “_If you wish to achieve responsible posting in ID threads, then encourage those who are not 100% certain to do as was done in this thread, place question marks after your suggestion._” This statement and your paraphrase are NOT equivalent. This is never acceptable!

This is the actual statement I made, which (for reasons unknown) you are trying to discredit: 
“_Bandy Bandys are the only banded black and white (or dark reddish brown and white) Australian snake and the bands are go all the way around i.e. right across the ventrals_”. 
The _Leucobalia fordonia_ has a black reticulum, not banding and it extends only partially onto the ventrals completely around. I fail to see any white bands on the _Brachyurophis roperi_ and again, nothing on the ventrals. The same is true of all the other banded members of the Shovel-nosed snakes. _Hopolocephalus stephensii_ I have already explain as not being white bands and the dark bands do not extend onto the ventrals. I have never seen or heard of a Carpet or Death Adder fitting that description, not even in captivity and their ventrals are either uniformly light in colour or with a dark reticulum in places, not bands and not continuous with dorsal colours. _Laticaudia colubrina_ are a light to dark bluish grey above and yellowish below – not white. The Kraits are as close as it gets, for from my limited knowledge the banded Hydrohids that occasionally get washed up on our shores are invariably an olive or mid-brown colour. Given the context of the original comment I hardly think it appropriate to be including pelagic visitors. 

What a complete waste of time!


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## serpenttongue (Nov 28, 2011)

JasonL said:


> There are hundreds of them being bred around Sydney, and thousands of Corn snakes, everything is here and being bred in large numbers... exotic "rescues" if you want to call them that are very common and have been for a few years now
> ...



Either I'm WAY out of the loop, or Wollongong really is the S-hole that Sydney-siders say it is (  ). I am yet to ever encounter an exotic down here


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## Wookie (Nov 28, 2011)

Wow. Just read this thread. Cannot be unseen.


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## dihsmaj (Nov 28, 2011)

Keelback


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## Herpaderpa (Nov 28, 2011)

I cringe at the thought of getting into this debate again lol 

But... those who are inexperienced and wish to learn are not going to learn by not participating. 

If all the experts simply posted "californian king snake" and no one had any challenging opinions or dialogue... what would we learn from that? Not as much if a dialogue was opened up by perhaps less experienced peoples suggestions or opinions. Experienced herpers can and will no doubt jump at the chance to correct the idea and in doing so hopefully explain their reasons why. 

I posed a possible suggestion in another thread in a questioning manner... and by doing so opened up new dialogue on this possibility and ended up learning a fair bit in regards to various species range from experienced local herpers. I see ID threads as an invaluable way for the inexperienced to begin to learn from the experienced through honest and open discussion. I may never have had another opportunity to learn the information that I did learn. 

I like Blues idea... if not experienced, pose your suggestion in an appropriate fashion. There will always be someone experienced to debunk incorrect assertions... the danger in incorrect ID is on par with the danger of the experienced failing to impart their wisdom.


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## waruikazi (Nov 29, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Waruikazi,*
> 
> You have used the term “misinformation’ to refer to “misidentification” – neither relevant or appropriiate under the circumstances. You compared this to* sex education *blue! How was that appropriate or relelvant?!?!?! I was talking about “experts” having made a correct identification, helping those wishing to learn by informing others how they went about it i.e. providing information to enable correct identification. OK, that style of learning doesn’t suit you but there are others who have specifically requested it. Yet you still object, seeming based on some belief that anyone trying to learn how to ID or to get better at it, is going to start posting wild guesses in critical ID threads. Iguess we had best differ on that point because I have more faith in human nature than that. You find me any thread on this entire forum where someone has asked me how to identify one snake from another and i haven't helped them. My post pertained to the idea that someone who can't separate two different families of snake from each other would more than likely not understand what a loreal scale is! There are significantly easier and safer ways to make the differentiation.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry you feel this is such a waste of time Blue. I think that tells us a whole lot more about you than it does me.

If you can't see that someone searching for an ID could describe those snakes i have posted pictures of and named as banded black or 'dark reddish brown' and white then... i don't know maybe i am talking to a brick wall. How many novices do you think are going to come onto the forum and ask 'I saw this dark reddish brown snake with white reticulums in places extending only partially onto the ventral surface...'

I hope you manage to read what i have responded to in your post, if you don't i will paraphrase for you:

If you are not competent at identifying Australian snakes then leave the naming and identifying to those who are. By all means read, listen and ask questions until you can. Only then you should be getting involved.


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## Waterrat (Nov 29, 2011)

When someone posts a pic of a snake and asks others to identify it, surely, he/she is not interested in guesswork or wrong or unreliable "suggestions". What's the value in that? 
It's also funny that once the correct (or incorrect) ID is given, 20 other posters have the urge to confirm, often just by repeating the ID already given several times. Are they trying to reassure the OP or just impress others and lift their self esteem?
Anyway, it's fun to read these threads.


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## Herpaderpa (Nov 29, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If you are not competent at identifying Australian snakes then leave the naming and identifying to those who are. By all means read, listen and ask questions until you can. Only then you should be getting involved.



Typically the inexperienced do pose their suggestions as questions and this is exactly what blue was arguing. The irony of your argument is you are agreeing with blue in a different way and then arguing about it lol  
I agree, inexperienced should pose their suggestions in question form and/or ask for input. But they should not be discouraged from participating otherwise they will never learn. Being told you are wrong and having it explained to you why is going to be the best way to learn.

This is the only person that suggested bandy bandy and this is exactly what they said..



snakeynewbie said:


> bandy bandy?
> 
> Face doesn't seem quite right though



They did not positively ID the snake, they posed it as a question. No one positively IDed this snake incorrectly but posed suggestions in the form of questions. 

Again... everyone should promote the idea of LOOK BUT DO NOT TOUCH.


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## miss2 (Nov 29, 2011)

so what have you done with its body rattler?


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## Poggle (Nov 29, 2011)

I just love how much people are criticized on this web site. There used to be a thread on here, called guess the herp i believe and this was a god thread to post snakes and others and let people guess what it was, yet the "experienced herpers" were still quick to bag out those who did not get the breed correct. I think that's the problem with this hobby. So many so quick to criticize and not assist. Before any one flames me, i understand that this is an ID thread but still, starting to get over the all the criticism and cr** that go's on this site. Meant to be a forum to assist and educate or help others.

Pog


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## waruikazi (Nov 29, 2011)

Herpa again i disagree. I know i may almost be a little over the top on this topic, but that is because i have seen the results of mis-IDs and i have intervened in some very near misses. 

Posting question marks after an ID does not make what you say a question. It makes it an ambiguous statement.

Hypothetical scenario, if enough people guessed the species and posted 'Keelback???' For an ID, then i don't think it is unreasonable for the OP to assume that the snake in question is a keelback. And where regular members might understand blue's new rule that question marks mean that the poster doesn't really know what the snake is the OP may not. Just take a look at the number of ID threads, a significant portion of them are by first time posters. 

Like i have said in every single thread where this argument comes up, read, listen and ask questions but don't post your ID until you are 100% sure on what you are saying. You can even have your guess, just don't post it! Write it down on a peice of paper if you really want to, then wait and see if you got it right. 

I know mistakes are going to happen every now and then, no one is infalliable. I've made a few mistakes in ID threads before but we should be doing everything we can to stop those mistakes.



Herpaderpa said:


> Typically the inexperienced do pose their suggestions as questions and this is exactly what blue was arguing. The irony of your argument is you are agreeing with blue in a different way and then arguing about it lol
> I agree, inexperienced should pose their suggestions in question form and/or ask for input. But they should not be discouraged from participating otherwise they will never learn. Being told you are wrong and having it explained to you why is going to be the best way to learn.
> 
> This is the only person that suggested bandy bandy and this is exactly what they said..
> ...


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## Red-Ink (Nov 29, 2011)

Information helps...
Guesses do not...

If an ID is given, give information on how that ID was made i.e. characteristics that led to the "correct" identification.
If it's a guess then it might as well be the OPs guess as they were the one that saw it "in the flesh", so that really does not help anyone. A ?? might as well be a ?? from the OP so no real help there.

When people are asking for some help indentifying a specimen, I'm pretty sure their not looking for a guessing game (I know I don't otherwise I would title it guess the ??).


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## Herpaderpa (Nov 29, 2011)

Again... promote "look but don't touch"

Even more experienced herpers can get it wrong at times. You can't ban people from being wrong. 

I understand your concern, but the only person you can control waruikazi is you. If you are indeed so passionate you would be better to make sure you post on every ID thread the importance of a correct ID and "look but dont touch". 



waruikazi said:


> Herpa again i disagree. I know i may almost be a little over the top on this topic, but that is because i have seen the results of mis-IDs and i have intervened in some very near misses.



Did those misidentifications occur because the person came onto a forum for ID and some noob posted an incorrect ID that they believed over the more experienced posters ID? Or was it from a lack of experience and knowledge on the persons behalf?


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## Waterrat (Nov 29, 2011)

Many, mainly newbies take forums such as this one for a gospel and believe what's posted here is the truth. They don't know otherwise because they don't read books, magazines or sc, papers. The reasons for not reading literature are many, lets not go there. Information given here should therefore be credible and useful - wild guessing does not help anyone.


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## waruikazi (Nov 29, 2011)

I do promote look don't touch for people who do not know what they are doing. Like i said no one is infalliable, mistakes will happen but that does not make guessing games appropriate or OK. 

The mis-ID's came from people listening to others who do not have the skills required to make accurate identifications. Where that mis-information comes from is irrelevant. And i was one of those who was mis-informed when i was younger and i took that word as gospel. 

I promote best practice by practicing what i preach, if i don't know what i am saying is 100% accurate i won't say anything. Take a look in most ID threads where there are guessing games going on, i will more often than not have posted my thoughts on guessing games. I have been wrong once in ID threads, i realised my mistake and then made a more accurate identification. No one is infalliable.



Herpaderpa said:


> Again... promote "look but don't touch"
> 
> Even more experienced herpers can get it wrong at times. You can't ban people from being wrong.
> 
> ...


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## CHEWY (Nov 29, 2011)

I am not going to comment on the ID of this snake nor the debate on ID thread ettiquette.
I will however comment that this snake could survive in Sydney. 
As Blue has said, this snke naturally lives in varied environments with varying conditions.
Sydney has weather very similar to parts of the USA. For example, look at the established colony of American Alligators living at the Australian Reptile Park. They have no hides, heat or anything else given to them except food. (Something this snake would not struggle to find)
I recently was sent a photo from Blacktown of a "wild" snake to ID. It was a Grass Snake _Natrix natrix_
Exotics snakes are being kept privately on mass, and escapees can pose a threat to our wild.


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## Waterrat (Nov 29, 2011)

Chewy, while I agree with that you have said, this snake and many other exotic species could survive in Sydney and other places but they would die eventually with a little impact on our environment and local ecology. 
How many individuals of both sexes are needed to establish a viable population? I forgot .... someone in the know please post the figures. From what I hear, Corn snakes are the champions because many are being bred and many escaped - that is a worry!


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## Echiopsis (Nov 29, 2011)

I agree with Waruikazi, if you dont know the correct answer keep your hands off the keyboard and wait for someone who does. By all means ask more specific questions about the patterning or any other diagnostic characters but unless you know what you are looking at shut up and try to learn something. After an accurate ID has been given by all means ask how that ID was arrived at (to increase your knowledge) but leave the initial ID to those that know.

Unfortunately people who find these forums looking specifically for an ID expect those here to know what theyre talking about. This isnt the case in many situations.


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## Waterrat (Nov 29, 2011)

The same goes for diagnoses of sick snakes, suggested treatment, etc.. 
It different to say "my snake had a scale rot, I used petroleum jelly and it got better" (right or wrong) ..... and to say "I think ur snake has burns and I herd that petroleum jelly is good 4 it". See the difference?


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## CHEWY (Nov 29, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Chewy, while I agree with that you have said, this snake and many other exotic species could survive in Sydney and other places but they would die eventually with a little impact on our environment and local ecology.
> How many individuals of both sexes are needed to establish a viable population? I forgot .... someone in the know please post the figures. From what I hear, Corn snakes are the champions because many are being bred and many escaped - that is a worry!



I agree with you 100%. There were a few questions on whether this species could survive in the wild.
While a viable population may not succeed from a few escapees, just one snake could do some damage on threatened species. I used to find Red Crowned Toadlets as a kid all the time.It has been a long time since I have a wild one. I'm sure there would be a few left locally.
I wonder how many Red Eared Sliders it took to set up colonies in Centenial Park, or the Golf Courses near the airport?
It may all be talk, but the potential is definately there.


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## love_blueys (Nov 30, 2011)

*king snake*

its a king snake i found one down the road from my house in dapto in the cutter still alive very placid didnt know wat it was and i call wires and it got taken to be put down but corn snakes and king snakes and rat snakes are realy common i have found corn snakes in my friends places and in ally ways and i found out after i took 3 baby corn snakes out of my mums boy friends house that his the person that lived next door was a full breeder of exotics and he got arested also red eared slidders are being found in the local ponds  reealy sad because thye kill our natives like the sydney basin short neck and the eastern long neck turtle 

but any way im gavin a newbie to this site and i love my blue tongues im only 16 but have had blue tongues since i was 8 my first was a wild caught then i got my licence and yer  and im the only person i no in dapto that has bred 2 albino blue tongues


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 30, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Chewy, while I agree with that you have said, this snake and many other exotic species could survive in Sydney and other places but they would die eventually with a little impact on our environment and local ecology.
> How many individuals of both sexes are needed to establish a viable population? I forgot .... someone in the know please post the figures. From what I hear, Corn snakes are the champions because many are being bred and many escaped - that is a worry!


_*Waterrat*_, did you not see my earlier post? There is good information available from Britain, America and a number of European countries on species known to have been released and which ones established and spread as a result. No where mentioned is less than 50%. Other than the Cane Toad, the following exotics are well established and spreading in Australia. Do you still maintain that exotics will die out?

Asian House Gecko (Hemidactylus frenatus)
Mourning Gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris
Red-eared Slider (_Trachemys scripta_)
Flower-pot Snake (Ramothyphlops braminus)

I am not sure whether readers realise just how wide spread and well established populations of these species are. If not, check it out. Rather worrying!

In answer to your question of how many are needed to establish a viable – it can be a little as one gravid female or one reproductive pair (in the case of most amphibians). One batch of fertile cane toad eggs would have seen the same result as we have today, just 10 years or so later. The North America Bullfrog (_Rana catesbeiana__) _established a breeding population in the Netherlands due to the addition of 5 tadpoles to an outside pond. The Brown Tree Snake on Guam was likely initially shipped to Guam as a stowaway in military cargo from Papua New Guinea (Admiralty Islands area) during the post World War II years. The Common Wolf Snake_(Lycodon aulicus capucinus__)_, native to SE Asia, is now established on Christmas Island, believe transported in cargo such as pallets of timber from Indonesia or the Philippines. 
The reality (on which you were no doubt banking) is that, other than deliberate attempts at establishment for biological control or such, it is usually not known how many animals were involved in forming a founding population. There is not a lot of experimental data either, but I did locate the following. “Losos et al (1997) introduced populations of _A. sagrei_ lizards onto small islands from a nearby source. They introduced propagule of five or ten lizards (2:3 ratio male: female) onto 14 small islands in the Bahamas that did not naturally contain lizards. On all but some of the smaller islands the lizard populations persisted. On some islands the lizards thrived, attaining a population of over 700 individuals on one island. Similarly, Losos and Spiller (1999) released propagules of five individuals (three mostly gravid females and two males) of _A. sagrei_ on ten very small islands in the Bahamas. They repeated this experiment on a further ten islands with propagules of five individuals of _A. carolinensis_. The _A. sagrei_ populations thrived on nine of the ten islands. In contrast, many of the introduced populations of _A. carolinensis_ became extinct.” This information is extracted from the Australian Federal Government article located at the following web address. It has a wealth of relevant information that will likely answer any further queries you may have on the topic. 
http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Risk_Assess_Models_2008_FINAL.pdf


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## Waterrat (Nov 30, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> _*Waterrat*_, did you not see my earlier post? There is good information available from Britain, America and a number of European countries on species known to have been released and which ones established and spread as a result. No where mentioned is less than 50%. Other than the Cane Toad, the following exotics are well established and spreading in Australia. Do you still maintain that exotics will die out?
> 
> Asian House Gecko (Hemidactylus frenatus)
> Mourning Gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris
> ...



Yes I do. The above mentioned species and cane toads were introduced in large numbers not by one or two individuals. Also, we are not sure if _Hemidactylus_ and _Lepidodactylus_ is not parthenogenic (at least some populations). Besides, most of them wouldn't survive in Melbourne.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 30, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Yes I do. The above mentioned species and cane toads were introduced in large numbers not by one or two individuals. Also, we are not sure if _Hemidactylus_ and _Lepidodactylus_ is not parthenogenic (at least some populations). Besides, most of them wouldn't survive in Melbourne.



I agree. They can have the rest Oz, so long as they don’t invade Melbourne. Damn! REST are known to breed in Melbourne’s climate.

You obviously know something I don’t. Perhaps you would like to share it with me – how do you know that the two geckoes and the blindsnake were introduced in large numbers. Secondly, the introduction of Red-eared Slider Tuurtles (REST) to isolated water bodies - there are clearly a lot of water bodies in which they have established breeding populations in WA, ACT, Victoria, southern and eastern Sydney and Woy Woy, and a couple of rivers in OLD. How many individuals were released to establish breeding populations in these places?

I won’t be surprised if you find an excuse to avoid answering these questions. Add to that the fact that you blithely ignored that solid data provided in support of potential establishment of exotics, you have clearly failed to accept the reality of the situation. Not every exotic has the potential to establish. However, a large number and a significant percentage do. It is not as hard as you would have people believe. This has been clearly demonstrated in countries with laxer import laws than ours. I really don’t care if you wish to live in a fool’s paradise believing this is not so. What i do care about is setting the record straight for the readers of this forum.

Blue

PS. Sounds like you might have water on the brain. There is a name for that – it is called hydrocephaly.
I fail to see why you equate intelligent and rational discourse with “tension”. Does this say something about you?

I can be relaxed and still argue vehemently and logically. In fact, when stressed, my capacity for rational thinking drops off dramatically, as it does when i am unwell. Thankfully, both those situations are, at best, transient visitors.

I certainly don’t use either as an excuse for opting out when the going gets too hard.

Blue


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