# S.A Woma's



## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 7, 2006)

Just curious as to why SA Woma's are cheaper than other forms.
It is obvious that NT animals are more common than SA animals, so you would think the rarer species would hold more value, but obviously this is not the case here. I have heard its because they are a dull, dark colour as adults many turning almost entirely black, yet I have seen some stunning photo's of SA Woma's which showed excellent colouring.

What are your thoughts?


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## Robbo (Mar 7, 2006)

i have been told the same as you 
basically not as nice to look at but i have seen some good pics to maybe thats why thire prices are starting to go up
last year i was given a price of 800 each and have noticed there are a few for sale now a bit dearer than that


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 7, 2006)

If anyone has pics of SA Woma's please post them.
It would be good to see colour varience within the species.


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## Retic (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes they generally aren't as nicely coloured as Tanami's or Uluru's.


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## Robbo (Mar 7, 2006)

have a look at the pics in this link
tanami , uluru . sa and wa pics on one page
http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/ramsayi.htm


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 8, 2006)

See I don't see much difference in colouring between those species.
There may be a slight difference between them but in no way is it majorly dark like some writings suggest. I still don't understand the price difference. IMO you would think that SA animals would be more expensive than NT animals and WA would be the most expensive going by rarity in captive collections.

Anyway do you think we should expect prices on SA Woma's to get higher?
And do you think some breeders will work with SA Woma's to produce better quality?

Whats your opinion?...


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

Some SA Womas look reasonably similar to Tanamis or WAs, some look very different. I hadn't seen many until late last year, but in the last few months I've seen several dozen adults and a similar number of hatchlings and juveniles. From what I've seen, they're typically not any darker than a typical Tanami and many have been very light by any woma standards (if they genuinely were almost black or almost so, there would probably be a huge demand for them). The patterns are usually less contrasting than you'll see on Tanamis and much less than a typical Uluru. I took some pictures of SA womas, but I was amazed when I looked at them, despite the snakes looking utterly different from Tanami womas, the colours were brought out badly in the flash and they turned out looking quite similar to Tanamis.

Prices do crazy things, lately people have been talking about the SA Woma prices rising over the next season or two, which might happen, but I'm tipping they'll stay about the same. People have been saying Tanami Woma prices will drop, ten years ago they predicted that in two or three years time they'd be $1,000 or so each, and five to ten years later they'd be around $500 each (I tended to agree back then, and I was wrong! Five years later they hadn't changed and ten years later they're still selling for more than they were supposed to be going for eight years ago! I now guess that we'll see a very slow decline in "entry level Tanami" woma price over the next few years, with some lines sitting steady and others, like the Topaz line, increasing). People were tipping Chondroes to drop hugely, from 1995 or so to 2005 or so I was saying they'd sit still or go up, in that case I was right! I think from this point we'll see a fairly steady decline in Chondro prices. (So far I'm about as good a predictor as a coin  ). Apart from looking brilliant, one of the appealing things about womas is that they are so different in their behaviour, the way they feed, the way they respond, they are very unique. SA Womas are less like the NT Womas in behaviour, and somewhat similar to Black Headed Pythons (which themselves are reasonably unusual, but they're no woma  ). One thing about the SA Woma which is likely to keep its price lower is their reputation of growing much larger than other types, although to my surprise, after seeing as many as I have, only about four have been much larger than 6', probably only two were over 8'. Rarity in captivity is a funny thing. I have Lampropholis delicata, they are far more rare than Chondroes in captivity (I think I'm still the only person in Victoria legally holding the species), but you couldn't sell them for 1% of the price of a Chondro. Supply is only part of the story. If you get the chance, have a look at some of both types in the flesh as pictures of Womas can be very deceptive. Preferences vary widely, so the most popular one won't necessarily be the one you'll want to get. Did you see my recent Woma thread? I posted pictures of two very different looking Tanami Womas, one dark and regularly banded, the other a very light Topaz Woma, many people had very strong preferences one way or the other, several people said "The xxxx Woma is the better one, no doubt about it" opinions were split about 50:50, I still can't decide.

What would you consider to be an aspect of SA Woma quality which you'd like to see improved?


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 8, 2006)

I have only seen pics of SA Woma's.
Never seen one in the flesh so no idea what I would like to see improved other than the fact improving colouring of these "so called dark animals I hear about in publishings". What I was really interested in was just seeing what others thought about it. If they feel prices will rise/lower and if they think some members may decide to buy the cheaper locality and start a project with them hopefully bringing out an improved trait of some kind, whether it be colour, size or other.


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## ihaveherps (Mar 8, 2006)

Most of the Sa Womas i have seen have had very pale, washed out banding. I dont know where you get the "dark almost balck" from, as all that i have seen have been quite the opposite, light and washed out. Also the SA's dont have as vibrant heads, their heads have been a brown colour.

my 2 cents


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 8, 2006)

ihaveherps,
Pics I have seen have shown the same. But I have read that SA animals are apparently very dark some turning black as adults. I also seen a pic of a black Woma (I think it was in "a guide to owning an Australian Python by John Coborn") 

Maybe someone has the book and can scan the photo?


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

Just as ihaveherps says, typical of what I've seen is very pale and washed out banding, often a lovely silver grey colour. I've seen very few with brown heads, most have had either cream or yellow heads, a couple have had pale orange heads. When taking pictures of the yellow headed ones, they came out looking quite orange, much to my frustration! Someone find me a black woma! I'll sell a kidney to buy it if I have to!


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

What colours would you like to see in a SA woma? And how would you improve the size? :lol: I'm not sure if that would be trying to increase or decrease it!


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## herptrader (Mar 8, 2006)

I believe that there is a difference in size between the two races with the larger being the SA race.


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## Simple (Mar 8, 2006)

Has anyone seen the womas at australia zoo??? Apparently they are sa womas, and they just looked like giant fat slugs. Maybe it just dependes on where in sa they are from.


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## dee4 (Mar 8, 2006)

I suppose you are saying colouration would vary in pics the same as some Diamonds do with a lets say a Balck and White with minimal yellow sometimes showing as if it is a High yellow? Whereas others of the same colour come out pretty much the same in pics, photogenic I suppose I'm trying to say.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 8, 2006)

Ok it was a hypothetical question just to see other peoples opinions.
As for size, colour or other, I was just giving some suggestions to hopefully encourage answers from other members as not many people are responding to this thread. I'm not saying I want to see them changed myself, I am simply asking if anyone can see future projects with the species in question as has been done with Tanami's. Take Topaz for eg: Do you think keepers will produce morphs or line breed for any other traits with this locality? Do you feel the SA form may become popular in the future? maybe due to some breeders enhancing somethign or other about the species, as the way I see it ATM not many keepers are keeping the SA form.

Personally I have no idea about the species first hand as I have never seen one in the flesh, so I'm not insinuating the species needs to be changed because I wouldn't know lol. I am more or less only interested in hearing what peoples opinions are of the species for the future. If they think they will become popular or if keepers will start to work with them.

I have read/heard they are dull.
I have read/heard they are dark.
I have read/heard they are light.
I have read/heard they are colourful.
From pics I have seen recently most seem similar to Tanami (maybe a slight difference). None have been reasonably dark though. But I swear I have seen very dark, almost black Woma's in photo's.


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

Yes, dee, it's very much like that. For some reason, bredli often come up looking much better than they are in photoes, diamonds often come out looking much more yellow, jungles come out looking washed out and less yellow (jungle x diamond hybrids are sometimes exceptions) and the red in the yellow heads of SA womas seems to come out more than the green, making them look orange. There are countless other cases like this of course.


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## ihaveherps (Mar 8, 2006)

I think the easiest morph you could breed for would be a patternless!


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## sawoma (Mar 8, 2006)

I have been breeding sa womas from Gidgealpa station in north-eastern South Australia for nine years now and believe that the lower prices that sa womas sell for is directly related to the miss conception that they are big dark ugly animals. It is true that some very old wild caught animals can be quite dull and faded, but this is also true for some wild caught Northern Territory animals. I find that the animals i breed tend to lighten in colour as they age, so having quite alot of yellow or olive green with generally a yellow head and black above their eyes and nose. As for size I have some very old wild caught animals which measure 8 and 9 feet in lenght, 7 year old animals that measure 6.5 and 7 feet and yearlings that measure 5 feet. the patterns on sa woma resemble that of a black headed Python with zig zagy bands. they do not seem to have nice evenly space bands like some nt an wa womas. I personally believe the temperment of sa womas to be far superior to nt womas. They are much more gentle and far less likely to go into a feeding response from simple movements like opening the cage door or simply touching the animal like so many nt womas i have seen.


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

JandC: they're very different from Tanamis, I wouldn't say they're dark, colourful is arguable. Maybe the dark pictures you've seen are wild animals ( ? ) I've seen photographs of very dark wild SA Womas, they've also been covered in scars etc. A few sloughs in a clean environment may change their appearance, or perhaps there are some dark populations which aren't represented in captivity. Most (maybe all) captive lines of SA Womas can still be traced back to their collection localities quite easily at this stage.

As for morphs, if one happens to turn up (a black one, an albino, a sky blue one, a polka dot patterned one), you can be sure it will be produced heavily, just as it would if it turned up in any other species. Australians have jumped on the morph band wagon. I'm pretty sure there aren't any big SA Woma morph projects on the go at the moment, but someone may well have checkerboard-super-dominant-zebra-zag-tripple-hinged-hypoes breeding right as I type and be staying quiet about it.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 8, 2006)

Perhaps the pics I have seen were wild.
I have deffinately seen them though. Does someone have the book? or seen pics of what I describe?


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

ihaveherps said:


> I think the easiest morph you could breed for would be a patternless!



Hehe, then you could desperately try to breed for beautifully irridescent scales and a lovely bright yellow belly and they might look almost as good as Water Pythons 

I bet a patternless woma would be worth $5,000 and a striped water python would be worth almost as much as a woma! I bet a black Chondro would be worth more than a green Chondro and the price of black tiger snakes would remain unchanged :lol:


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## sawoma (Mar 8, 2006)

as i am a first time user can someone tell me how to submit pics.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 8, 2006)

Ok so to sum up:
They are cheaper due to a miss-conception that they are dull,dark & ugly.
Prices may rise depending whats produced in the future.
If something special is to arise it will become popular and bred from heavily.

Am I close? lol


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

sawoma: Most people now use their own hosting, if you want them displayed now and want to learn later, you can email them to me, I can host and display them for you now. Seems interesting that someone with your name should appear for the first time just as this thread gets a heap of hits :lol: whatever gets the pictures up for me to drool over is fine though


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

Here are sawoma's pictures.

A male from Moomba, SA







a juvenile female from Tirrawarra






and an adult female from Tirrawarra SA parentage







Thanks for the pictures, sawoma, they're great. I must say, they aren't typical of what I've seen in captivity, although the first two do look like the pictures of captive animals I've taken. How close to the real animals' appearances are these?


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

But wait! There's more! (again, from sawoma)

Adult male Tirrawarra






yearling female Tirrawarra






Yearling female Tirrawarra head shot






Thanks again!


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## zulu (Mar 8, 2006)

*re S.A*

Good pics sadji,i dont know whether or not its correct but they seem to have long shape heads or it just seems that way,nice looking womas some of the SA types,neil sonnemon had some nice looking ones.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 8, 2006)

That last pic looks like a roman nosed bull-terrier. I like it


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## ihaveherps (Mar 8, 2006)

lol JandC, good for ratting!

(roman nose bullies were bred for ratting, x number of rats locked in a room and they let the dog out to see how many it could kill in a mintue or so. The roman nose was bred in as a favourable trait as it was easier for the dog to corner the rats more efficiently. Stupid fact!)


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## zulu (Mar 8, 2006)

*re S.A*

Thanks for sending pics SA Woma


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## sawoma (Mar 8, 2006)

sdaji: that is pretty well what they look like in the flesh.


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

Interesting, yours look different from others I've seen. Is it true that your collection has blood which is unrelated to other captive SA Woma lines?

The long nosed one does look a bit unusual, is it just a strange photo or does it look like that? Is that pretty much a uniquely shaped head or are there others like it?


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## Sdaji (Mar 8, 2006)

sawoma has given us another picture 

This one is a 10 month old female from Biglake. (I quite like this girl  )

Please note that these pictures are from sawoma; don't thank me!


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## sawoma (Mar 9, 2006)

sdaji: i think it must just be the picture. Although sa womas are larger that nt and wa womas they don't seem to be as robust in their body shape. A five foot nt woma is genually more stocky than a sa woma of equal length.


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