# Interesting small space - what should I put here?



## ChessGuru (Mar 15, 2009)

We have these 3 interesting spaces built into the wall in our living room which I'd rather fill with living creatures than have some kitch crap on display.

The spaces are each 40cm x 40cm x 15cm deep with a little halogen downlight in the top of the square. (Volume = 23 litres/5 gallons)

I am planning to build a glass aquarium into the space which would fit exactly and then use a suction cup to drag it out (like a drawer) to get access. 

Wondering how much heat the little halogen light would generate - not sure if enough to have some sort of small lizard? What about UV?

Other thoughts were insects or spiders - but don't know much about them. So not really sure what to put into the space(s). Any ideas? What would be great?

If you have any photos of small enclosures please post them!


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## Mrs I (Mar 15, 2009)

Not really wide enough for a lot of things, maybe insects like spiny leaf insects, or some spiny tail geckos of some sort.

Would look good with something in them thats for sure but the depth is not very deep, i wonder if you can make it bigger ?


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## cracksinthepitch (Mar 15, 2009)

Maybe a small species of fish.


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## Kirby (Mar 15, 2009)

get a big vase. (small width?) and put a nice fighter in there. the light will keep him nice and warm. he will love it..


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## ChessGuru (Mar 15, 2009)

That's my main worry is the small space. I can't really make it any deeper - but could perhaps have the aquarium deeper and have it overhang out of the wall...probably only give an extra 5cm.

I was also thinking hatchling snakes and then just move them out when they get too big...


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## KatanaRamirez (Mar 17, 2009)

Crystal red shrimp maybe.

http://www.planetinverts.com/crystal red shrimp grading guide.html


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## mcloughlin2 (Mar 17, 2009)

Some geckos would be sweet in there. Something that doesn't grow to big and spends most of its time climbing.


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## kakariki (Mar 17, 2009)

A scorpion & a blue light set up would look awesome there! I'm not sure what types of scorp glow the best though, sorry!


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## yommy (Mar 17, 2009)

scrubby?


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## gravitation (Mar 17, 2009)

Kirby said:


> get a big vase. (small width?) and put a nice fighter in there. the light will keep him nice and warm. he will love it..




Despite all the mumbo jumbo about keeping them in jam jars, it's cruel and they don't last long.
They need a heater. Outside light won't warm the water up nearly enough.


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## buttss66 (Mar 17, 2009)

I think it's cruel to put any living creature in such a small space. How could they have any chance of moving away if it gets too hot or too cold? 15cm is ridiculously narrow - stick insects are longer than that and so are many scorpions.


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## BlindSnake (Mar 17, 2009)

pet rocks?

Or you could make fake rock backgrouds with spots to put small plants in.


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## AUSGECKO (Mar 17, 2009)

buttss66 said:


> I think it's cruel to put any living creature in such a small space. How could they have any chance of moving away if it gets too hot or too cold? 15cm is ridiculously narrow - stick insects are longer than that and so are many scorpions.


 I don`t know of any aussie scorpions that are 15cms?


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## buttss66 (Mar 17, 2009)

O.k I lied :|! Scorpions can reach 12cms but even at half that length they wouldn't have much room IMO.


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## Zena (Mar 21, 2009)

The Vase and Fighter Fish idea sounds good. They supposedly like small tanks and they come in a range of great colours so you can colour co-ordinate them. Can only have 1 in each vase. They dont need any special lighting, heat or filter systems.

This would be the easiest way to make the most of the space and possibly the cheapest.


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## christo (Mar 21, 2009)

Zena said:


> The Vase and Fighter Fish idea sounds good. They supposedly like small tanks



How did a Siamese fighter let people know it "likes" small tanks? 

I think the reality is they *can* live in small tanks, that doesn't mean they like it. Who knows, maybe they do (but I would err on the side of caution and not put a fighter in a small tank).


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## Zena (Mar 22, 2009)

Christo...you may notice I stated that they "Supposedly like small tanks". This is what most pet shops tell people, which is why I added "supposedly" in there. I did not claim to be a Siamese Fighter Fish expert.

I also based this on the fact that I have never seen a Fighter in a large tank. Everywhere you see them for sale they are in small tanks.


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## kupper (Mar 22, 2009)

it is a well known fact that in larger volumes of water a siamese fighting fish pines away , the smaller the space they live in the better as there wild habitat is the small pools that surround rice paddys in asia 

therefore giving them a small space to live in is replicating there natural habitat and although they are rather distant from there wild roots I am pretty sure any animal/fish/invert is going to do a hell of a lot better living in what is there natural habitat 

if you do water changes frequently feed appropriately and use the recommended water conditions there is no reason why siamese fighting fish cannot live in a small jar vase ect and not thrive


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## Hooglabah (Mar 22, 2009)

buttss66 said:


> I think it's cruel to put any living creature in such a small space. How could they have any chance of moving away if it gets too hot or too cold? 15cm is ridiculously narrow - stick insects are longer than that and so are many scorpions.



most scorpions will do fine in a chines food container 

your best bet would be marbled geckos if you can get em

they dont get any bigger than 10cm and spend most of thier time suspended from the glass just make sure to encourage this by putting lots of fake hanging plants across the back wall

scorpions wouldnt use the height at all so it would be a waste and youd never see them except at night. stick insects would be good tho they are boring as hell. and large spiders like tarntulars are almost completly terrestrial.

maybe a very small skink common garden skinks would be fine or some brown tree frogs they never get any bigger than 5cm and are easy to care for the major problem would be geting uv lights in there some basic modification to the top of the hollows would fix that.

what would work well is a small arborial species of lizard or frog to provide some interesting display animals or just go with some fish. your choice.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 22, 2009)

kupper said:


> it is a well known fact that in larger volumes of water a siamese fighting fish pines away , the smaller the space they live in the better as there wild habitat is the small pools that surround rice paddys in asia
> 
> therefore giving them a small space to live in is replicating there natural habitat and although they are rather distant from there wild roots I am pretty sure any animal/fish/invert is going to do a hell of a lot better living in what is there natural habitat



this is actually a misconception siames fighters dont live in "small" puddles in a rice paddys are actually ussually meters long and wide 

they like *shallow* water not small being a fish that spends most of its time near the surface.

and by shallow im talking 30 - 40 cm deep. however its a well known fallacy that they pine away in larger volumes of water. ive kept and succesfully bred siames fighters for over 4 years in 3 ft x2ft x 2 tanks with a raitio of 1 male to 6 females.

its amazing how many people dont know anything about siames fighters all it takes it to look at how big a rice paddy actually is and to see the pools of water in them to understand that the concept of a small tank is fine and a big tank is bad cuz they live in small puddles is totally wrong.

the reason for the tiny tanks or glass jars in pet shops is because unlike most other fish cohabitation of males is totaly impossible (in the wild they will jump from one puddle to another to escape another male in a tank they cant do this) so to keep up with demand they need to have lots of fish and the only way to do that is to put them in a small tank, glass jar ect. the reason this is doable is because of a siames fighters abiltiy to take oxygen from the air and use it by means of a special lung called a labrynth organ. if you want a detailed description on how that works google it there are hundreds of good descriptions.

the minimum amount of water id ever put any fish in is 10 liters so a 30cm long by 30cm high by 15-20cm deep 

i really shouldn't bother explaining this to people but i hate seeing fighters in small enclosures in the long term.

oh also they *need *heated aquariam yes they can survive below 20c but only for a short time a few days to a week at most. 22-24 is the ideal tempreature.

thanks for listening


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## missllama (Mar 22, 2009)

fighting fish in one, spider in the other, scorpian in the other one


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## imalizard (Mar 22, 2009)

I would not put a betta in there...read hooglabah advice! Its very well written!

Heres a tank i keep 1 betta in 






It could to with a top up lol.

But not all bettas like this big space, you will find that some that live in a small tank all there life that they may hide most of the time. They will come out eventually.

My betta is 3.5yrs old so he will be going to fishy heaven soon.


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## imalizard (Mar 22, 2009)

The water isn't yellow, its the wall colour and it makes the water look yellow.


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## gravitation (Mar 22, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> this is actually a misconception siames fighters dont live in "small" puddles in a rice paddys are actually ussually meters long and wide
> 
> they like *shallow* water not small being a fish that spends most of its time near the surface.
> 
> ...




Agree 100% Every bit of information about bettas you mentioned is spot on.

I feel sorry for all those fighters aswell, it's so pet stores can sell more stock but if you look carefully often they will have one male fighter in with some of their other tropical species.

They don't last very long in small containers that arn't heated, PH isn't overly important to them and they do alright without filtration but they do need heat, and they LOVE being able to swim around in a large area with lots of plants to duck into.

I've got about eleven girls, had males but i like my females because they can live together peacefully and they get just as colourful.


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## missllama (Mar 22, 2009)

gravitation said:


> Agree 100% Every bit of information about bettas you mentioned is spot on.
> 
> I feel sorry for all those fighters aswell, it's so pet stores can sell more stock but if you look carefully often they will have one male fighter in with some of their other tropical species.
> 
> ...




oooh im so glad i clicked this thread! i cant wait to get my fighter in a few wks, he is going to have a nice big warm tank, is that photo u posted all ur girls together? there very colourful! i thought girls were suppose to be dull? very nice!


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## Hooglabah (Mar 22, 2009)

have you ever heard of peacful fighters grav??

ive got a few care sheets on em but i cant find anybody selling in country.


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## gravitation (Mar 22, 2009)

missllamathuen said:


> oooh im so glad i clicked this thread! i cant wait to get my fighter in a few wks, he is going to have a nice big warm tank, i would love to see a photo of all ur girls together!



Planning on taking a few more pictures, i've got lots of plants in there with them so a few tend to hide while the others are visible and my god are they hard to get nice photos of, lol.

If you want any advice i'm happy to help  They are lovely fish. Full of personality.


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## imalizard (Mar 22, 2009)

My fighter will be going in a 4ft tank soon! Hopefully he lives to experience it!


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## gravitation (Mar 22, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> have you ever heard of peacful fighters grav??
> 
> ive got a few care sheets on em but i cant find anybody selling in country.



There are some males that seem to be less aggressive, but i think it's down to personality. Alot of the males are just too firey. The females are firey aswell, but in a group larger than say four they do well because they develop a pecking order.

The yellow female is my alpha, she's the big boss, the big blue female used to be second to her but i have a few babies that are getting to her size now so she's got a few nips on her tail as they will compete for a higher rank.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 22, 2009)

the differance between the girls and the boys is that girls dont have the long fins. and they dont get quite as nice but you can cohabite just chuck one male in with the girls all thier colours brighten and the male will be constantly displaying to impress the girls its stunning every time i see em. even after 4 years (i have had the same male for 6 its amazing hes like 200 in fighter years)


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## missllama (Mar 22, 2009)

oh wow! i never new that i thought they would be dull but i had no idea about the fins etc

u no what... im thinking now i want to set up my spare tank and get a heap of girls they are just so beautiful! they would have to be one of my favourite fish!

i might see how i start off with my one boy and then set up my other tank and maby have a little school of them in there

grav check out my fish thread i have decided on what im getting for that tank tell me what u think


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## gravitation (Mar 22, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> the differance between the girls and the boys is that girls dont have the long fins. and they dont get quite as nice but you can cohabite just chuck one male in with the girls all thier colours brighten and the male will be constantly displaying to impress the girls its stunning every time i see em. even after 4 years (i have had the same male for 6 its amazing hes like 200 in fighter years)



I've tried that aswell, i used to breed but i find the girls stress and pick on each other a bit more when the males in view. Having lots of plants is key but i don't bother with a male unless i intend on breeding.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 22, 2009)

not a peacful male its a species of betta that arent territorial. 

google it they are black in the middle of the body with fluro blue around the edges and streaked through the tail.

theres an english breeder but im not paying 50 pounds for the fish and another 50 for frieght.

any way off topic sorry.

go a small gecko marbled or spiney will fit in there allright. or brown tree frogs.


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## gravitation (Mar 22, 2009)

missllamathuen said:


> grav check out my fish thread i have decided on what im getting for that tank tell me what u think




Most of my females i have bred myself and i got good results, you do get alot of dull ones out there but they are generally getting alot more colourful, yellow and white are uncommon, solid blue is not that common either. I see alot of black and pale striped with blue/red fins like one pictured below.

I have kept female fighters, corydoras and cardinal tetras together, male fighters do okay with cardinals or neons but alot of other species of tropicals, especially cat fish seem to get their eyeballs pulled out by fighters, i stick to cardinals and female fighters now unless i am breeding. Having a snail in there is okay aswell, I fill my tank with beautiful live plants, and even without fish it looks nice, lol. Favourite plant is definetly lace fern.

If i were you i would start with one male and some tetras, see how they get on. They both like similar water conditions. 

Anyways back on thread i would'nt know what to keep in a space that small, i'm not experienced with frogs or geckos, but that seems to be your best bet.


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## SnapKitten (Mar 22, 2009)

I like the geko idea.


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## junglepython2 (Mar 22, 2009)

Climbing geckos crap all over the glass so it will need continual attention to keep it looking good.


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## Kirby (Mar 22, 2009)

gravitation said:


> Despite all the mumbo jumbo about keeping them in jam jars, it's cruel and they don't last long.
> They need a heater. Outside light won't warm the water up nearly enough.



im not a fool who keeps bettas in jars. 

they stress in water that is too deep, they are surface feeders and need easy access. Too much space is also a negetive, they are naturally territorial and patrolling can be stressfull. too much current in the water is another way to drown a fighter. i have a 3x2x2 planted tank, one fighter amoungst other fish. he is personally a less dominant and agressive fish. he's fine. i also have others in smaller wases and bowls. who are also healthy and happy. the most important factor is water quality.

yes, they are a tropical species, and if your aquarium is large enough, go ahead with a heater. 

they are a species of fish who have evolved to live in mud, your ornamental fighters are nothing like the wild type. they have an organ called a labyrinth, which allows them to breath air fromt he surface as there natural environment is slow moving water, with little oxigenation. There gills have turned into display mechanisms rather then a breathing aparatus, used to flar in defence. 

all the OP would have to do is use a higher wattage down light, and its possible in 10cm to get a 40C+ basking spot with the apropriate bulb. no reason why the water wouldnt get a reasonable 24C at apropriate lengths. then again, who says his house is cold and airconditioned. 

you could go for a small aborial species of gecko. northern spinies? these guys are champs.


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