# OPMV....know much about it?



## JungleRob (Mar 22, 2006)

Was talking to a guy in Brisbane about how long you should quarantine your new arrivals and we got onto the topic of OPMV, which I had never heard of, so looked it up on the net. Here's a link to a site you may find interesting, I certainly did.

http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV3F.htm


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## cwarren72 (Mar 22, 2006)

Just thought I would prewarn all that this link is a Ray Hoser Link........don't waste your time


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## rockman (Mar 22, 2006)

Alot more people should learn about it , before its to late . Having spoke to our vet lately , its pretty much out of control ( about 12 caes in under 2 months ) because no-one wants to speak up . Having lost alot of snakes ( 10 ) when i first started , it is just increidble to watch it happen before you . It can be overcome by breaking the link that passes the virus . I am working with my vet , trying to write a paper on what happened . It has been a fair while now , so i know i'm clean , but it scares me now buying snakes of other people . This is something that must be discussed for the future of herps .


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## TrueBlue (Mar 22, 2006)

Well said rockman.


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## africancichlidau (Mar 22, 2006)

Here here rockman.

C Wazza, no matter what you may think of Ray he has a hell of a lot of knowledge and a lot of his stuff is well worth reading.


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## Moreliaman (Mar 23, 2006)

Same with Mark O'shea, 24 carat twit, but he knows his stuff !
Perhaps they are long lost brothers ? Is ray ginger ? :lol: 

nasty that OPMV, can wipe out someones entire snake collection !


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

I couldn't care less what some people think about Ray , i tihnk he's a stubbie short of a 6 pack , but then some people on site site think they know everything as well . The read on OPMV that he has is interesting showing how small a thing contaminated so many snakes . Dismay Ray if you like , but i bet half of the people haven't even read his site . Most people are just like sheep , one goes ba ba ba , then the rest go ba ba ba . As i said before most people don't want to hear nor read about OPMV. it's more interesting to look at some pic's of someones snake eating a rat . Coming from experience , this will be the thing that will give the herp world a big shake up . You won't be trying to buy pretty snakes , you will trying to find some-one that hasen't got OPMV , and they won't tell you because they still want to sell you the snake . It's like playing russian roulette , only your chances are alot ****ter ! Good luck to the people with their hand in the sand , you will need it .


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Having read my last post , maybe i was a little harsh for some . Lets try and be a bit softer , before i get bagged for it . How many people have had a snake die ? Out of those people , how many spent maybe $300 -350 getting it tested for OPMV ( not worth it for a little $180 childerns or crappy costal is it ) ? Now out of those people that did get it tested , did the vet tell you that it was a resperiotry problem ? Pretty vague eh ! And out of those people , did that stop you selling any snakes in your collection , within the last 6 months . Hopefully everyone might sit up and take notice . No-one wants negative talk about their herps , but if you don't talk about it , you won't have any herps . Bet this topic only lasts about 1-2 days before we go back to looking a pic's of cages and snakes eating rats . :wink:


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## crutch2 (Mar 23, 2006)

so what is opmv you have talked about it but havnt explained it and how do we prevent it


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## Linus (Mar 23, 2006)

So can you talk us through it rockman?

I couldn't read hosers link - all the flashing pictures and colours made me nauseaus!


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

With so many knowledgable people on this site , ask them . Everyone has their own opinion about whats what ! All i know is what i learn't from experience and from the vet trying to help me . I brought 3 snakes off some-one , 1 had a slight respritory problem ( nothing to worry about , i was told ) , i quaratined them but i made a very small mistake in handling them , which cost me dearly . I could go to 95 % of the people of this sites , herp collection and show you within minutes of what is being done wrong , as to passing a virus like this . 99% of people hide the fact that they might have it , i suppose its like admitting you have aids , you think that you might get shunned by the other herp people .I was surprised when i spoke to someone very knowledgable from this site about it , that i wasn't shunned . I was 1 of the 99% , until i spoke up . I lost 10 animals ( $10 -15000 ) and spent about $ 5000 at the vet within the time i had the virus . Best way to learn quick is to hit the hip pocket . It turned me off herps for a while , just watching animals die until we worked out how to stop it . Iam back into herps now , my animals are now clean and i can guarentee that , not many people can say that with confidence . People really do need to talk , especially the new , younger people that are keen to buy a snake off anyone , these are the people that it will hurt and start with . Good luck


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## zulu (Mar 23, 2006)

*re OPMV*

Yeh ive been through that process rockman the vets and tests with OPMV,scary stuff,thank god i havent lost anything for about a year now,test results from CSRIO at the time come back as bergendorfs salmonella,ive since worked out i was overheating animals in summer.Thanks for speaking up about it rockman it does a great service to everyone


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## Kris (Mar 23, 2006)

You know Rockman I'm kind of surprised (pleasantly so) by how up front you're being about having had an outbreak. I've noticed a tendency among keepers in the past to keep things like OPMV, reovirus and even small things like mite outbreaks a secret. While I can certainly understand why people are reluctant to reveal these things (be honest with yourselves guys, people can be very judgemental when armed with even a few small facts), I do worry that witholding information about these things is detrimental to all concerned with keeping. Aside from the obvious concerns about spreading diseases amongst collections, it makes it hard for people who've not heard of the diseases before to educate themselves about them. You can only read so many dry scientific texts in one day  I personally would rather be able to speak directly to people who've had the experience before about what happens, how to handle it (if, god forbid, it should ever occur to me) and what NOT to do. Especially since I live a good couple of hours drive away from vets who care for reptiles. I do understand the need for people to maintain their privacy, but surely there must be some happy medium?

I agree with you Rockman, people DO need to talk....but will they? And where do you draw the line, how do you balance helping people learn about this without compromising too much of your privacy? Obviously this is all my opinion, and as such probably doesn't count for much  But it does bear thinking about. How often do people talk about the need to educate yourself when you're starting out....how do people do that if there's a general unwillingness to talk about these things? Put yourselves in the shoes of both the people who want to protect their privacy and the people starting out who need all the information they can get. Or dismiss me as a raving fruitcake 

Cheers, Kersten.


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Everyone , just humour me for a second , how many people can honestly stand up and say that have lost at least 1 snake and never got it tested for anything ? This should prove a point .


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Kersten , people won't talk about it . As for protecting their privacy , it was law not that long ago that if your vet found that you had OPMV , you were reported to the authoritys . That does not exsist anymore . The people that know they have and are still selling their animals , " we all love our animals and we are not in it for the money " , what a load of crap . Stand up and be counted . I have put myself in their shoes and i stood up and done the right thing . Im not known at all in the herp peoiple , but the few that do know me , i told . I suppose thats why there are 2 different kind of people .


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## da_donkey (Mar 23, 2006)

cwarren72 said:


> Just thought I would prewarn all that this link is a Ray Hoser Link........don't waste your time



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: 

A very interesting and IMPORTANT read for all herpers.


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## Kris (Mar 23, 2006)

I know they wont Rockman, I'm just an eternal optimist :roll:


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

I'm not ! I'm a realist .


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## tweety2 (Mar 23, 2006)

rockman, i cant read the link either could you please tell me what OPMV is as i have never heard of it, you say we should all know what it is but when asked in a previous reply you told the person to ask someone else, you seem to have the knowledge on this so please share it.
cheers
lisa and al


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Im not having a go at you tweety2 , but including myself , when i first got into snakes , i didn't know either . We all should be made aware of the problems even before we buy our first snake , even that would help slow the spread of the diease .Look up on google


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## Wrasse (Mar 23, 2006)

rockman, I know where you are coming from, the whole 'shunned aids thing'. I had a maccie here that supposedly died of OPMV. Cost me a fortune in tests that ended up proving nothing. His cagemate is still in full quarantine nearly 2 years later as I am paranoid now.

I disagree about the 'widespread' OPMV problem however. Too quickly vets are ready to scream OPMV when they have no basis for that diagnosis. Sure, it's out there, I won't fight that, but I don't think it is as prevalant as vets would have us think.

No doubt the 2 little bleach poisonings I had in my collection are now listed somewhere, shown as OPMV stats. The vet saw them when they first started showing symptoms of the bleach poisoning and declared them to be OPMV. However, their neurological symptoms were due to bleach poisoning, not OPMV and within 24 hours of shifting them to well rinsed cages, both were recovered.

My large female olive will also be a statistic, as she was also declared to have OPMV. Which later turned out to be Pentastomid worms.

The problem, as I see it, is that reptile medicine is so unknown, everyone is quick to call a problem something they know about, rather than actually do the work to find out what it is.

As for my little OPMV maccie, I am certain, now I know more, that he didn't have OPMV at all. Instead, I think he had neurological symptoms bought on by poisoning. He was housed on pine bark chip, which I have since found out can be toxic when mixed with urea, releasing a gas that acts as a neurotoxin.

Sure, OPMV is out there, but if vets put as much effort into diagnosing a snake correctly, instead of calling out OPMV as loudly as they can, I think we might find it isn't as prevalent as it is currently being made out to be.


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

The vet i deal with had about 12 tested postive OPMV results , in about 2 months . Wrasse , on the other side , a vet that doesn't know might say it is just a respirioty problem and don't be to concerned with it , and then it spreads like nothing you know . There is both sides . If i had have used the vet that i have now , i may have saved alot more of my animals from the start .


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## Wrasse (Mar 23, 2006)

Agreed, it should not be a shunned subject. It needs to come out into the open to be discussed and be made known about, so the average owner has an idea and knows what to be on the lookout for, and importantly, so everyone can understand the need for suitable quarantine practices.

But I think, to put too much emphasis on it, will only cause more vets to scream OPMV and less research will go into finding out the real causes for the problems our reptiles suffer from.

As it is, as shown in my cases above, the vets here had no idea and quickly settled on something they had likely only 'heard' about.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2006)

Thanks Rockman for your advice and information... Scary subject...

Just wondering what you meant, when you said you made a small handling error which spread the OMPV from those new arrivals to your other snakes?
Do you mean not properly washing your hands after handling the new arrivals? If so, is there any disinfectant that will actually kill OPMV virus which may be on your hands that you (or anyone) can recomend?

I don't have this disease in my collection (and want to keep it that way) and would like to know all the precautions and measures that need to be done to prevent the spread in a collection, if it was ever introduced via new stock. Can anyone post some info on this please? thanks


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## Magpie (Mar 23, 2006)

> Everyone , just humour me for a second , how many people can honestly stand up and say that have lost at least 1 snake and never got it tested for anything ? This should prove a point .



You know I have, I never even thought twice about it until talking to you that day.


OPMV can only be tested for post mortem. 
A quick google wil tell you more than you ever wanted to know 
Jim that was 12 cases confirmed by post mortem testing yeah?


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## Wrasse (Mar 23, 2006)

Magpie said:


> OPMV can only be tested for post mortem.
> A quick google wil tell you more than you ever wanted to know
> Jim that was 12 cases confirmed by post mortem testing yeah?



The EM test can only be done Post Mortem, but it is not definative. Lesions can be missed and an all clear can come back on an infected animal.

I understand that in the US there is a test available that can be used on live animals, however, it is not FDA (?) approved for use in Australia. The sheer lack of numbers or interest requiring the use of this test means it won't be pushed for at any stage in the near future.

The 'right' vets if asked nicely, can possibly get a few tests sent over if required. Time is a factor though.


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## Kris (Mar 23, 2006)

They're also working on a vaccine in the US


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Magpie , you are # 1 , lonely yet :lol: , i don't see to many standing next to you through. And yes , those 12 where confirmed , tested postive results at the vet . Colin , i never cleaned my hook while i was handling the snakes , one day . In my defense , i did not know at that stage what was happening . I don't make the same mistake know , i use F10 ( from the vet ) sprayed onto everything and new paper towel for everything .


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## olivehydra (Mar 23, 2006)

I tried to get a similar thread going some time ago, although it was about IBD not OPMV. The vet I spoke to classified IBD as "quite common" in collections, as was OPMV. This was maybe 1-2 years ago, and he claimed a couple of cases per month. Very scary stuff, but at least you are getting a better response to this thread. I have always had a necropsy performed on any deceased snakes and to date, luck has been on my side. This is a very serious issue and I dont want to detract from that, but perhaps if this thread looks like dying an early death, someone might care to mention bikini girls in an attempt to revive it. :wink:


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Awesome , olivehydra , your # 2 , at least you can keep Magpie company . :lol:


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## Kris (Mar 23, 2006)

Lol Olive are you offering to post some pics? If you're worried you're not well endowed enough just whack a couple of chicken fillets in the bikini top....men never know the difference anyway 

Rockman, it's a very good question. I personally haven't been keeping snakes long enough to have found it necessary, but I certainly would if one of my babies died.

Cheers, Kersten.


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Kris said:


> Lol Olive are you offering to post some pics? If you
> 
> 
> > Rockman, it's a very good question. I personally haven't been keeping snakes long enough to have found it necessary, but I certainly would if one of my babies died.
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2006)

> never cleaned my hook while i was handling the snakes , one day . In my defense , i did not know at that stage what was happening . I don't make the same mistake know , i use F10 ( from the vet ) sprayed onto everything and new paper towel for everything



Thanks for that info Jim, much appreciated. So does F10 actually kill the IBD and/or OPMV virus? what about washing your hands after handling a snake? Can this F10 be used for this or is there something better available? 

Personally I think this is one of the most important and best threads I"ve seen for a while... any input and procedures that can combat these diseases would be greatly appreciated. The old story of prevention being better than a cure...


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## Kris (Mar 23, 2006)

Oops I should have said "find it" not "found it" :? I meant that I've never found it necessary to have a snake autopsied, none of my snakes have died. Kris has been keeping them for years but he's not here to provide an answer at the moment.


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## JungleRob (Mar 23, 2006)

cwarren72 said:


> Just thought I would prewarn all that this link is a Ray Hoser Link........don't waste your time


  

This has been very nteresting and informative! Thanks to EVERYONE for their input.

Rockman, sorry to hear about your losses through OPMV. Well done on getting back into herps though.

If I have learnt one thing through this it will be that putting your new arrivals in quarantine can be the difference between being a happy herper and a herper with no animals at all.

Can OPMV be spread in Lizards, Dragons, Geckos etc?

"IF YOU KNOW YOU HAVE OPMV IN YOUR COLLECTION DON'T RUIN IT FOR SOMEONE ELSE BY SELLING THEM AN ANIMAL TO MAKE MONEY, TAKE ACTION AND DO THE RIGHT THING!'


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## swampie (Mar 23, 2006)

Hi Rockman , i'm interested to know how long it took till the other animals in your collection got sick after you noticed the first one was sick ? and how long did it take them to pass away from the time you first found them ill ?
cheers swampie


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## olivehydra (Mar 23, 2006)

Colin said:


> > Thanks for that info Jim, much appreciated. So does F10 actually kill the IBD and/or OPMV virus? what about washing your hands after handling a snake? Can this F10 be used for this or is there something better available?
> >
> > ...
> 
> ...


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## beknluke (Mar 23, 2006)

Hi Guys
As you all know, I got sent a whole heap of dragons with Yellow Fungus Disease late last year.
I put my neck out and told other people about it, and to warn them that it IS here and that it IS dangerous, and I remember copping not only a LOT of slack for it, but I also had people saying that they wouldn't buy animals from me ever again, and they were warning others against doing so too. All this b/c I put my hand up. I understand why people try to hide it - but I don't condone lying to make a sale.

Hey Jim - how are ya hun? I remember that phone call that you and I had all those months ago where we actually talked about the possibility of OPMV getting into dragons. Whilst I still can't answer that question, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank yourself, along with all of the others who didn't critisise me for letting everyone know about the potential danger for beardies.
I'd also like to say good on you Mags, and Olivehydra for admitting that you've had animals tested before to make sure that there was nothing fishy going on within your collections. But more importantly still, to rockman for having the balls to get up here and say 'I've had it in my collection' and because of the time, money and sacrifice that he put into those animals he is now probably one of the few people who is able to say 'i've beat it' with confidence.
I applaude you.
I think that with things like viruses and diseases, keepers need to (attempt to) stick together and help each other. For goodness sake, you might be putting your neck out by saying 'I have it' but damn it, someone MIGHT be able to help you and give advice!!! Sometimes the potential benefits can outweigh the risks.

As for the F10, I now swear by the stuff!! I use it to clean enclosures, glass, hooks and water bowls etc. I also used it to treat the lizards with the fungus and guess what! THEY'RE ALL CURED! This stuff kills so many things that it's hard to comprehend that you can get it in a bottle! I bought 5lt for approx $150 from a wholesaler and I don't think that I'll ever run out of the stuff, and I use DOUBLE the directed dilution rate.
If I can find the brochure that I have on it, I will scan it in and post pics so that everyone can read what it's capable of.
I now also RELIGIOUSLY use disposable gloves and clean my hands in Chlorhexedine (sp?).
Again Jim - we can only hope that more herpers can be as honest as you.
Cheers
Bex


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2006)

> Again Jim - we can only hope that more herpers can be as honest as you



Here here... good onya Jim and thanks also  

Bex, is it possible to PM me the name of the place and phone number where you can get 5litres F10 for $150 please? thanks 

Ive heard of OPMV but as it has not affected me (touch wood) thus far, never really paid much attention or have as strict quarantine procedure as I should in place (as have probably most others as well) now Im going to try to be much more vigilant and careful in future... 
Much better to prevent a disaster than try to pick up the pieces when its too late....


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## beknluke (Mar 23, 2006)

Hey Colin 
The supplier is here in Vic - don't know if it would be more worth your while calling your local vet and asking them who they get it through?
But for all of those in Vic, I will gladly post the places dets - I am sure that they would love the plug!! lol

Chemical Essentials (Pty) Ltd
13 Abelia St, Doncaster East, Vic, 3109
Tel: 03 9841 9901 Fax: 03 9841 9909
Email: [email protected]
www.chemicalessentials.com.au

Oops - just looked at my invoice and I lied  the price that I paid was $310 ex GST  I think that it was one of the smaller bottles that was around the $150 mark :? What a dumb dumb 

Anywho, here are the pics:








The instructions off the side of the bottle:






























Bex


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## Craig2 (Mar 23, 2006)

i applord all who r willing to admit they ghave a probiem and honestly not sure how many will agree but i would rather buy off someone who is wiling to admit they have had a problem as long as its fixed ofcourse as i see it they r honest..and know what an outbreak can do..
i have not had any problems thus far and would like to keep it that way the ony way anyone can do this is to know what they r up agenst
that asside is there a time frame for this deases rockman 
how can u tell if they r sick 
and how long do u quarintene for now 
and how did u get rid of it 
what precautions do u now take 
sorry but u tell us about it but u only tell shadow info not how to prevent it i get the steralizing and washing of hands
NO GOOD GETTING OLDER IF U DONT GET WIZER so help every 1 out and give us a bit more info please


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## beknluke (Mar 23, 2006)

Sorry guys, HERE'S the instructions off the side of the bottle


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## TrueBlue (Mar 23, 2006)

girls in bikinis, bikinis on girls, girls frolicing in the water in bikinis, bikini girls, girls bikinis.


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## zulu (Mar 23, 2006)

Trueblue wished :


> girls in bikinis, bikinis on girls, girls frolicing in the water in bikinis, bikini girls, girls bikinis.


Any pics Trueblue


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## TrueBlue (Mar 23, 2006)

No, but I was just obliging olivehydra and hoping, junglrl, ninapeas, reptililia and a few others might help out.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 23, 2006)

no pics of me in a bikini but heres brittany making herself usefull while i clean the enclosure


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## TrueBlue (Mar 23, 2006)

Cool, next time britneys over can I come and help.?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 23, 2006)

its more fun when she brings her girlfriend


>>>falls out of bed, bumps his head, and realises its all a dream...


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

I will try to post something tonight if i can , trying to clean up after the cyclone up here . 889 people have look at this and only 2 others have stood up . Awesome , that means that we either have the best collections in Australia , or some people don't have the balls to admit it . This is why the diease will do so well and flourish .


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## Magpie (Mar 23, 2006)

> trying to clean up after the cyclone up here



Y'all good there Jim?
Let me know if you need a hand, we're all done cleaning up here.


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## Craig2 (Mar 23, 2006)

sssnakeman bet u woudent mind bein where that snakes tail is


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## solitarydiver (Mar 23, 2006)

Hey Linus I agree Beffore I started reading that paega I was fime Now I can't seee the keybord infrunt off meeee......... Hehehe Very interesting article though as rockman said Not too many would tell the world about their HIV................


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Something to think about , who feeds with a pair of forceps or tongs ? Do you wipe them down with F10 in between each feeding ? Imagine if the snake strikes at the prey and touches the forceps and leaves behind a little bit spit ( virus ) and then you just go and put another mouse in the forceps and go and feed again . Did you see the spit that might be there or not .? Did the snake touch the tongs or not ? Spreads easy , eh !


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

What about if you have a big cage split into 2 , you slide the glass front across so you can clean and feed your snake , the other snake in the ajoining cage slides across the glass with its face , what has just happened ?


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## TrueBlue (Mar 23, 2006)

Love your work rockman, this subject HAS to be disscused for the benifit of the hobby. As you already know it is very easy to stop the spread of this virus because it is very fragile and wont live off a host for very long,(about the only thing it has going for it.) So people who suspect they have or had this nasty problem should bite the bullet and do the honest thing not only for the hobby but themselves in the long run.
And for all you people that think its rare, ring a few competent herp vets in any state in the country and get their opinions and I think you will be horrified.


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

What if you handled your snake , imagine if you had red paint on your hands , it would be incredible to see what would be red within 10 min of being in your snake room , the red paint being the virus . Gives you something to think about , eh !


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Look at that , i think i have just about doubled my posts in one day , look out peter , i'm catching up ! :lol:


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## JungleRob (Mar 23, 2006)

So true Rockman! We aren't all as careful as we should be.

Myself for example....I've just fed 2 of my 3 diamonds and copped a bite on the hand from the 3rd, one hungry little beauty, on the desk next to me because I hadn't washed my hands and the scent of rats is all over them. Now, if I had OPMV in my collection it would be all over. Why?...because I wasn't aware of OPMV? No, because I'm lazy and think....it won't happen to me!

OPMV is real people! We need to be extra careful.


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Hey , JungleRob , you learn quick :lol: , now if i can get the 899 people to be as quick as you , we might make a difference in a couple of years time and we might have some herps left to look at . Imagine that


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## JungleRob (Mar 23, 2006)

I bought a jungle from a guy in Brisbane, that had previously had a wipe out due to OPMV. I was told after I bought the snake about it, that was the first I had heard of the disease. Kept him in quarantine for 9 months and he's as healthy as can be. I'm confident I don't have OPMV in my collection.
I was asked not to approach the seller about this as the guy that told me about it was supposedly the only other that knew. You know how it is.
What does one do in a case like this? I don't want to name and shame, but I believe he is a member of this site (not 100% sure though).
I just hope for his sake, his animals and any prospective buyers that it is sorted out because he is selling alot of animals every year.

Is it true that OPMV will wipe out an animal in about 9 months?


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

OPMV will kill an animal quicker then 9 months . Hard call , JungleRob , i would watch the legal side of things , you may end up in a very large pile of poo . Thats why there are 2 types of people , the ones that stand up and say what most people are thinking even if it makes them unpopular , ( TrueBlue ) :lol: , and those that don't want to hurt anyones feelings . I think most people would now know where i stand . Magpie & olivehydra , is it getting lonely up there by yourselves , not a nice feeling eh ? I take my hat off to both of you . Jim


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## junglemad (Mar 23, 2006)

i haven't had a snake die on me as yet. I don't feed with tongs, i change the paper each week and wash the water bowls in boiling water and wipe the tubs with straight pine-o-clean. I wash my hand every time i touch my snakes. I breed my own rats.Fingers crossed i have no diseases but threads like this are definitely a worry.

ps here is a bikini pic. Looks like an intergrade, perhaps Scandinavian and Australian...


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Sorry . I'm not trying to scare everyone , but trying to make people aware that it is out there . Don't worry , this topic will probably only last another day if lucky . :lol:


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## beknluke (Mar 23, 2006)

It's lasted longer than previous threads on the subject Jim. I am just glad that people are finally comfortable to discuss the subject for you. Even if they do require some half naked women fondling snakes to inspre them to do so 
Bex


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## peterescue (Mar 23, 2006)

If the disease was transferable to humans, as with flying foxes, or effected a billion dollar agricultural industry we'd be sending sample off to Geelong or brisbane all the time. The upshot is that I or the organisation I rescue for do not have the money or the rescources to test deceased reptiles where the cause of death is unknown. On the occasion that test have been done OPMV hasn't been found. IBD has on occasion.

OPMV is nothing like HIV. OPMV is about losing face as a reptile keeper and losing money as a breeder and seller. You have to come to terms with an ethical situation. Do I tell everyone about this or do i shut up and carry on as normal. Well Jim, you made descision. I dont call it couragous, just honest and responsible. An admirable one though. Couragous when people put their own well being on the line. 
HIV is killing millions of people, Couragous describes the people who worked with HIV infection in the early days. Not knowing how it worked.
Anyway, i digress.
Im not sure about your with me or agin me stance. The thread is far to convoluted to be able to ascertain your manifesto. What do you want people to do. Buy F10. Its one of several products available that will do the same job. Its good but its not going to save you. Just help.
If you are serious about stopping it then you should call for and support a moratorium on the sale and movement of all reptiles. Lock it down. Is the situation that bad? Is that what you are implying.
Im not sure where you stand at all.

ps, I dont know where all the rest of you have been for the last few years but no one has said anything that hasnt been discussed at length before. This isnt the first thread of this and other diseases and it wont be that last. Maybe I should ask, where were you last time when you didnt stand up to be counted.

I dont want to sound negative but there is a sanctimonious tone to the thread.

pss, is that Kirsty Hinze? Wasn't that supposed to be a diamond. Even the Packer Billions couldnt get a pure diamond.


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## junglemad (Mar 23, 2006)

yeah it is Pete. If they had of let me know I could have lent them a proper diamond to drape around her.


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## rockman (Mar 23, 2006)

Peter , with testing the animals , i was referring to animals that are in our care not in the wild . With my with or against stance , i'm not sure what to say ? People can do what-ever they want , i don't think that this topic will change much at all to be honest .I suppose if it saves someone going through what i went through and saves 1 x animal , i would be happy With F10 , it came highly recommended from the vet , it seemed to work for me and i was only trying to help . I must have been the only 1 besides the rest of you that didn't see the OPMV topic , sorry for wasting peoples time with something so negative . I suppose thats why i don't comment too much about stuff that i don't know much about . Excuse me while i go and stick my head back in the sand .


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## Wrasse (Mar 23, 2006)

Well said peterescue. 



TrueBlue said:


> So people who suspect they have or had this nasty problem should bite the bullet and do the honest thing not only for the hobby but themselves in the long run.
> And for all you people that think its rare, ring a few competent herp vets in any state in the country and get their opinions and I think you will be horrified.



Not sure if the 'rare' comment was aimed at me or not. To make myself clear, (which I thought I had done already), I am not saying that OPMV is rare. Not at all. I am simply saying that it is being screamed too loudly in the wrong situations. I think a little more education is the key and discussing it is the way to go.

Too many people call OPMV when it isn't neccessarily the case. As long as everyone is happy to settle for calling everything OPMV, then the other diseases won't get diagnosed and learned about and our herps will still suffer.




rockman said:


> Thats why there are 2 types of people , the ones that stand up and say what most people are thinking even if it makes them unpopular , ( TrueBlue ) :lol: , and those that don't want to hurt anyones feelings . I think most people would now know where i stand . Magpie & olivehydra , is it getting lonely up there by yourselves , not a nice feeling eh ? I take my hat off to both of you . Jim



Clearly, as mentioned above, I had not made myself clear. In my first post I stated I had a snake diagnosed with OPMV. When that was the case, I certainly didn't go into hiding and there are numerous posts about that situation all over various snake forums. I did a lot of reading on the subject, attempted to pull him through it and when he died, I passed his body over for testing and the testing came back inconclusive.

In hindsight, I don't think he had OPMV at all, I think it was poisoning. (But I already mentioned that). I think if the Vet had put a little more thought into possible causes, especially given no new arrivals into my collection or possible contaminants, my snake may have been treated differently and may still be alive today.

Even so, I also stated in that post, that since it happened, his cage mate has been in quarantine and to this day, is still in strict quarantine. If, by any chance at all, it was OPMV, I don't intend to pass it around even though the 'use by' date is theoretically past.


Now, back to peterescue's post: Rockman, where are you taking this thread? Are you attempting to flush someone out of the woodwork ?

:?


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## africancichlidau (Mar 23, 2006)

Only saw this post tonight for some reason? I had an adult snake die recently from old age, had the P.M. done and was told it was old age, (I don't know for sure how old the snake was), but how do I know this is the case? Short answer is, I DON'T!


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## africancichlidau (Mar 23, 2006)

> and I use DOUBLE the directed dilution rate.



Is that safe?


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## Sdaji (Mar 24, 2006)

Vets talk crap, in almost all cases (including the well respected ones, I won't name names, but most of the highly recommended ones don't know much more than your average frozen pink mice), they have no idea what they're talking about. They have to say something as an excuse for charging you a heap of money, so they'll come up with something. I know of countless cases of absurd diagnoses made by vets and I know many people who know a heck of a lot more than any vet. I suppose if you don't have knowledgable contacts and you have a sick animal, you're in a lot of trouble and might be desperate enough to go to a vet, but in most cases you'd be better off doing nothing at all. I'll probably get a heap of people giving testimonials about how a vet helped them etc etc and yes, at times a vet might help, but for every time they help there are times they've hurt and many, many times they've done nothing more than charge money for wasting peoples' time.

Giving a false diagnosis, especially when they're telling people they have highly destructive diseases, is horribly irresponsible. This is not a case of erring on the side of caution, it causes problems. If snakes are diagnosed with OPMV/IBD etc etc, which actually don't have these diseases, people notice that their other snakes aren't dying and start thinking that these diseases actually aren't a big problem. They describe their experiences to others and others think they know how to deal with the situation, but if they do happen to get a genuine case of a disease, they'll not deal with it appropriately. Giving out serious misdagnoses also makes people apathetic. If we all hear about these diseases floating about everywhere, but nothing much ever comes of it, we think it's common but not a real problem, thus, we take the situation less seriously. This is all another case of misinformation being spread, causing damage to our hobby. It's sad that in this case the so called professionals are being paid to do it by naive keepers.


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## beknluke (Mar 24, 2006)

africancichlidau said:


> > and I use DOUBLE the directed dilution rate.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that safe?



Most certainly is Af  And if it wasn't, mine along with many other animals in peoples collections and at unis, would be dead.
I could have used a 2ml/lt dosage, or even a 4ml/lt dosage for the fungi spores, but after a chat with the biochemist, we decided that it was best to use the 'resistant virus' dosage just to make sure that there was no chance that the fungi could survive.
It's a very safe product and has been recommended to me (at the higher dilution rate as well) by many other keepers and vets whom I trust. 
The main point is that it worked and all of the animals are now healthy 
Bex


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## rockman (Mar 24, 2006)

> Now, back to peterescue's post: Rockman, where are you taking this thread? Are you attempting to flush someone out of the woodwork ?


Wrasse i'm not sure what you mean by this ! This was and is not , what did you say " flushing someone out of the woodwork " , mate i got no idea what you are on about . This sort of crap makes me laugh , my snakes had OPMV , ( as tested post mortem by a lab ! ) i lost some animals because i did not know what i was doing wrong , i came on here to try to bring it out in the open so it gets discussed as this is the only way to stop it . . Wrasse , i'm didn't realize that you said you had a snake die as well , sorry about that , i'll put you up next to Magpie and Olivehydra . 


> It's sad that in this case the so called professionals are being paid to do it by naive keepers.


I suppose that was aimed at me ! I suppose you woke up one day with 20 years experience , wisdomand knowledge and you didn't start from scratch , sorry for being naive , probably makes half the people on this site naive . I should have just come to you for advice , OH GREAT ONE ! I don't have years of experience , i will admit it , but i do have some little bit of knowedge about OPMV having been there and go through it with some success.


> I suppose if you don't have knowledgable contacts and you have a sick animal, you're in a lot of trouble and might be desperate enough to go to a vet, but in most cases you'd be better off doing nothing at all.


 That sounds a smart thing to do people ! :roll: What are you saying Sadji , that they should come to you ? , saying this makes me laugh , but its sad really that you give out this great advice , i hope that not that many people take you that seriously . Some vets are not into herps , some are , find a good vet that is highly recommended and use them , or just ask Sdaji :lol: To Sdaji , to question the vet , as long as you have MORE KNOWLEDGE then the vet , then you can have a go at the vet , but until then its makes me laugh that people can stand up will their worldly advice . There are some crap vets out there , but there are some very good vets as well .


> Maybe I should ask, where were you last time when you didnt stand up to be counted


Peter , If i have something to say i will , its just i don't open my mouth for the sake of hearing my own voice , i not having a dig at you also ,i'm sorry i have only been on this site for about a year and i haven't seen where i was supposed to stand and be counted . Let me know please !. If there is anyone that i have missed having a go at , please remind me :wink: . The original topic started by trying to help someone that asked a question ( being naive ) , thats how you learn , isn't it ? This topic was never meant to scare anyone , it was meant to educate people a little bit . If it didn't hurt you before , just go back to acting like it doesn't exsist , thats the easist way out , and you will have a positive outcome . :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 24, 2006)

I've been using Virkon S for cleaning for the past couple of years, it's a broad spectrum biocide as well, and an excellent deodoriser, with low toxicity - can be used to rinse hands etc without harm or irritation. Anyone else using this? These viral things are a worry, can have very long incubation periods, and some animals appear to be able to carry the infections silently and appear to be in good health for their entire lives.

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 24, 2006)

I would have thought that most definitive diagnoses would be accompanied by a pathology report (from a veterinary pathologist, not a vet) which should be shown to the client as confirmation of the diagnosis. Also, these days with the ease of email, it's not difficult to send photos of microscopic sections showing details such as viral inclusions etc. If the diagnosis is clear from the pathology work done, then that should be the end of the argument, but sometimes with these viral things, clear diagnosis may not be possible.


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## ad (Mar 24, 2006)

I take my hat off to you Jim,
I couldnt imagine the heartache involved in watching your collection die, you may have prevented this happening for someone, you have opened a lot of eyes Im sure.
Cheers
Ad


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## rockman (Mar 24, 2006)

Pythoninfinite , you are correct in what you are saying , vets can't make the call , it does have to go to a vet pathologist and thats when the professinials step in .


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## peterescue (Mar 24, 2006)

Jim, dont take offence please. I also speak my mind, or attempt to write it. If I have something to say I generally say it and spend the next couple of days either explaining what I meant or in reality not worrying about it and going with the misinterpretation. 
I think I side with you. It was just the minute' that I was having trouble with.
Sorry about the F10, its just that I have people trying to ram it down my throat with zeal of the Amwaysect inductees.
It puts me off straight away.
You forget also that a proportion of snakes that we catch end up in private hands through herp societies etc and until a couple of years ago they tended to be looked after in the interim by people who kept reptiles. The same people breed and sell them as well. so there is no distinction between WC and pet reptiles in my mind.


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## TrueBlue (Mar 24, 2006)

Sdaji, from you comments you obviously dont know any competent herp vets.?


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## Caveman (Mar 24, 2006)

JungleRob said:


> I bought a jungle from a guy in Brisbane, that had previously had a wipe out due to OPMV. I was told after I bought the snake about it, that was the first I had heard of the disease. Kept him in quarantine for 9 months and he's as healthy as can be. I'm confident I don't have OPMV in my collection.
> I was asked not to approach the seller about this as the guy that told me about it was supposedly the only other that knew. You know how it is.
> What does one do in a case like this? I don't want to name and shame, but I believe he is a member of this site (not 100% sure though).
> I just hope for his sake, his animals and any prospective buyers that it is sorted out because he is selling alot of animals every year.
> ...



You are are friggin hypocrite Robin, you had no problems selling me your (no doubt quarantined) male jungle without disclosing your knowledge that your collection has been exposed to this virus! When I look at the enclosures you keep your other snakes in I can only wonder why you housed this male on newspaper. 

Your last comment shows you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Lets hope you are correct in your assunptions.

Brett Allen


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## JungleRob (Mar 24, 2006)

Excuse me Brett. I still have the male at home thanks. If you recall, that was sold to me as a female and only later found out it was a male. What good is two males? I kept your male for the required EPA 6 months and then sold it to you.

I keep all my animals on newspaper, you'll find alot of keepers do Brett. You're out of line mate.


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## JungleRob (Mar 24, 2006)

rockman said:


> OPMV will kill an animal quicker then 9 months . Jim



You have an amazing jungle male Brett. It is 100% healthy I guarantee that. If you're not happy with him I'll gladly take him off your hands for what you paid for him. Post pics and see what other members think. 

I think you've flown off the handle a bit here and I see why, but I still stand by saying I have not done wrong by you.

Give me a call if you want a talk, you have my numbers/email/address etc.

Cheers,

Rob


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## Sdaji (Mar 24, 2006)

Heh, funny posts, rockman. Actually, none of what I posted was directed at you, or anyone personally. You seem to have missed the parts of my post which said that sometimes vets do some good and in some cases going to a vet is going to be the best option for certain people. I didn't say every single vet is bad, I said most of them are. Most (yes, including most of those who specialise in reptiles) frequently give out absurd information, which is destructive. I don't know why you're accusing me of suggesting people should come to me, I have no interest at all in taking on the role of a vet and didn't make any big claims about my own skill/knowledge/etc. As I expected and predicted, I got flack for my post, so be it. This is yet another situation where people want to believe what they've been told and get emotional about anyone suggesting their trusted sources may be unreliable. I'll point it out again, sometimes some vets do some good, don't try to say I've claimed otherwise.

Some specialist reptile vets will be of use for some problems, a (very) few will even be good enough to either help you or admit that they can't. If you have a simple, common problem, such as a respiratory infection etc, any vet will be able to give you antibiotics and send you on your way. Virtually none are able to deal with something like OPMV or IBD, virtually none even understand how to diagnose it, in fact, it's virtually impossible to diagnose some of these diseases which vets will claim to be the cause of death. In many cases, we get vets giving out absurd information such as "Your snake died of Salmonella", based on the fact that Salmonella was found on the dead snake. (Salmonella is found on virtually any healthy snake, it's normal and supposed to be there).

TrueBlue: I wouldn't say none, but there are very few. I know that many of the so called best ones are pathetic.


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## rockman (Mar 24, 2006)

Sdaji , i must be one of the luckiest guys around , i found a vet that is good , does not frequently give out absurb information , she is able to deal with something like OPMV , she even knows how to diagnose it , she's not pathetic and she uses a lab to get results , post portem , and sometimes she does not charge me for her work due to the fact i'm working with her on the OPMV ( providing imformation where i can ) . She also work in with one of the leading vets in Australia , who is doing a study on OPMV & IBD . She also works as a full-time wildlife carer and a genuine interest in animals especially reptiles .


> This is yet another situation where people want to believe what they've been told and get emotional about anyone suggesting their trusted sources may be unreliable.


And yes i do believe the lab that she uses . Would you like me to pass her name onto you so you expand your knowledge a little bit more than what it is now ? , that way when you next open your mouth , some good might come of it !


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## Sdaji (Mar 24, 2006)

Why are you so upset, rockman? Strange that you're making such strong attacks. I didn't single you or your vet out and didn't say that there are no good vets. I didn't actually make a reference to you at all in my initial post. You seem to think I was making some huge claim about myself, I didn't make any boasts, I just said that I know a lot of people with a great deal more knowledge than herp vets. Considering I've spent the last few years in biology labs and animal houses, and most of the people I associate with are employed in these places, it's hardly surprising I have these contacts. You took offence when I said that many vets take advantage of naive people, as though I was attacking people who are naive. Of course we all have to start out somewhere! There's nothing wrong with being naive, if we weren't naive we'd never need the help of anyone else. To some extent we're all naive, even in our own areas. I was saying that it's bad that many vets take advantage of this (of course you're naive if you're going to a vet, being naive simply means there's stuff you don't know... if you knew everything you wouldn't have to ask anyone for help). By definition, if you're seeking help from a vet (or anyone else) you're naive; it's not something bad and I've never made that indication. You're doing just what I predicted and giving me a testimonial of your experience with a good vet. Heh.

I see I'm being misquoted. I request that the moderators delete the post in which I'm wrongly accused of saying (in red) "Don't bother taking it to a vet", among other things. I did not say such a thing and am not happy about having words put in my mouth like that. If you're in a situation where you can't deal with a problem and have no better alternative, by all means, go straight to a vet. I've never said otherwise.

As for your question, no, I haven't had any 'hands on' experience with OPMV and neither have most of the Australians who think/claim they have. I have seen a couple of collections with supposed cases of OPMV, some of which may have been genuine. Hoser has been mentioned, I was actually at Ray Hoser's house at the time just after he lost the first snake he assumed to be due to OPMV and the next day the second died. At the time I was in frequent contact with him and closely followed the happenings, but I can't claim any 'hands on' experience because there is no way in hell I'd touch any snakes suspected of carrying a serious disease and if mine were in doubt, I'd euthenase them unless I could have them kept in a seperate building from any other animals. Hoser was calling me frantically at first because he was unsure of where this disease had come from and he'd obtained a pair of death adders from the same clutch I had at that time (it turned out that the breeder of those adders was certainly not the cause). I've been in frequent contact with a few people during their supposed cases of OPMV, most of them clearly were not OPMV, some just might have been, none were 100% confirmed, despite some claims made by vets involved.

Since you seem to have trouble understanding this, rockman, I'll point it out as the last (as well as pretty well the first) thing in this post....

I know nothing about you or your vet, none of my criticism of vets is directed at yours. You don't need to take it personally.


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## olivehydra (Mar 24, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> I see I'm being misquoted. I request that the moderators delete the post in which I'm wrongly accused of saying (in red) "Don't bother taking it to a vet", among other things. I did not say such a thing and am not happy about having words put in my mouth like that. If you're in a situation where you can't deal with a problem and have no better alternative, by all means, go straight to a vet. I've never said otherwise.
> 
> .



Done sir.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 24, 2006)

I would like to see you euthenase your beloved water pythons if you had a suspision they were ill. On just a suspision!! Clearly you dont know what you are talking about mate. About ten years ago when I was still living in SA i was given a little Burmese Python, this snake ended up having IBD. Its the worst thing as I had a massive collection of adult pythons. Where exactly do you start euthenasing? Especially when some of the snakes can actually be resistant to it?


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## Sdaji (Mar 24, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> I would like to see you euthenase your beloved water pythons if you had a suspision they were ill. On just a suspision!! Clearly you dont know what you are talking about mate. About ten years ago when I was still living in SA i was given a little Burmese Python, this snake ended up having IBD. Its the worst thing as I had a massive collection of adult pythons. Where exactly do you start euthenasing? Especially when some of the snakes can actually be resistant to it?



You're saying that because I'd be more cautious than some I don't know what I'm talking about? Right :roll: Some would be more cautious than I.

What happened with your IBD infected python?


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 24, 2006)

I nuked it.


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## Sdaji (Mar 24, 2006)

Oh, you euthenased it, did you? But I'd be crazy if I did the same?


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 24, 2006)

I've read this entire thread through, and am no more enlightened than when I started. If OPMV is a virus (as some people have eluded to) then shouldn't it be stoppable? Perhaps not curable in animals that have it, but able to be stopped from being spread? 

Other people have spoken about 'causing' the virus somehow...heating or something...how does that happen?

And telling people to go google it isn't very helpful. Perhaps more information on OPMV and less paranoia would do people like myself good instead of confusing us. 

If I think my snake has mites- I'm going to ask people in the know here about it- why should I be ashamed or frightened? Mites, worms and other parasites are so easily caught that it seems ridiculous for people to be shunning other people because of them. Bought a 2nd hand enclosure? Could contain mites or worms....held someone elses animals and not washed up as well as you should have? Did the snake touch your shirt? Been out bushwalking? 

Mites and the like are likely to occur in new reptile owners collections, as usually they are naive about what to look for. I myself, am naive to what to look for- and after hearing all the things I have about WA dealers, I'm hesitant to believe anything any of them say! 

I'm going to go google OPMV as it seems to be the only way I'll find anything useful out about it, as I certainly didn't get it from this thread. 

And Sdaji, I had no trouble understanding your posts.


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## Sdaji (Mar 24, 2006)

Yes, OPMV is a virus. Yes, you can stop it by making sure no animals ever come into contact with it.

Because of the concerns you pointed out, and others, I wouldn't buy a second hand enclosure and am very careful if I have anything to do with reptiles outside my collection, or even people who own reptiles. Mites should never be a problem in a collection. If you're careful you'll probably never get them. Mites are easy to spot and if you quarantine all new arrivals, it will never get into your collection. I treat my new animals for mites, even though they don't have them. If you touch reptiles in someone else's collection, you should wash your clothes and have a shower before touching your own or anyone else's collection.

Glad you had no trouble understanding my post 

( ? )


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 24, 2006)

Thanks for that bit of clarification Sdaji! 

I have a 2nd hand enclosure (bought from a dealer), so my concerns are obvious. From now on though, we will be buying an enclosure new, or make it ourselves. Much less worry. 

I worry tonnes anyway- its just my nature! I'm always stressing about something going wrong! 
What are some symptoms of OPMV?


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## Sdaji (Mar 24, 2006)

If you're going to use a second hand enclosure, you really do want to disinfect it. There are many methods you can use, but I'd give the enclosure a thorough wash with 10% bleach, allow it to dry completely, repeat a few times and do the same with ethanol a couple of times. Getting something new is always preferable, but disinfecting it should be fine.

If you do some googling on OPMV you'll see that the experts don't always agree on the symptoms. You'll see that there really isn't all that much known about it and most of what you see is supposition. A lot of what you'll read is incorrect, you can see this, if nothing else, by virtue of a lot of the different sources giving facts which are mutually exclusive.


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 24, 2006)

So I shouldn't take one persons word as gospel, and I should trust my instincts. 

Fair enough. 

And I disinfected the enclosure quite a lot! I wanted to be sure.


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## olivehydra (Mar 24, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Vets talk crap, in almost all cases (including the well respected ones, I won't name names, but most of the highly recommended ones don't know much more than your average frozen pink mice), they have no idea what they're talking about. They have to say something as an excuse for charging you a heap of money, so they'll come up with something. I know of countless cases of absurd diagnoses made by vets and I know many people who know a heck of a lot more than any vet. I suppose if you don't have knowledgable contacts and you have a sick animal, you're in a lot of trouble and might be desperate enough to go to a vet, but in most cases you'd be better off doing nothing at all. I'll probably get a heap of people giving testimonials about how a vet helped them etc etc and yes, at times a vet might help, but for every time they help there are times they've hurt and many, many times they've done nothing more than charge money for wasting peoples' time.
> 
> Giving a false diagnosis, especially when they're telling people they have highly destructive diseases, is horribly irresponsible. This is not a case of erring on the side of caution, it causes problems. If snakes are diagnosed with OPMV/IBD etc etc, which actually don't have these diseases, people notice that their other snakes aren't dying and start thinking that these diseases actually aren't a big problem. They describe their experiences to others and others think they know how to deal with the situation, but if they do happen to get a genuine case of a disease, they'll not deal with it appropriately. Giving out serious misdagnoses also makes people apathetic. If we all hear about these diseases floating about everywhere, but nothing much ever comes of it, we think it's common but not a real problem, thus, we take the situation less seriously. This is all another case of misinformation being spread, causing damage to our hobby. It's sad that in this case the so called professionals are being paid to do it by naive keepers.




I would have to say that in part I would agree. I feel that I now have a very good vet on hand, but have had some amusing consultations in the past. I visiited one vet who advertised himself as being an "exotic" specialist for birds and reptiles :? His test for IBD and OPMV was to observe the snake climbing on a perch. Anything less than surefootedness was then diagnosed as either being "probably" IBD or OPMV? I would imagine this could be somewhat disturbing for some??


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## rockman (Mar 24, 2006)

I wasn't saying all vets are good , we have all a dodgy one , but not all vets are idiots either . Look at the amount of vets that have been mentioned on this site , are they all crap ? Some of the well known members have given them the ok . Does that make them naive ?


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## olivehydra (Mar 24, 2006)

rockman said:


> I wasn't saying all vets are good , we have all a dodgy one , but not all vets are idiots either . Look at the amount of vets that have been mentioned on this site , are they all crap ? Some of the well known members have given them the ok . Does that make them naive ?



Nup, I think my vet is the bees knees. Very knowledgable and keeps herps himself. I would be only to happy to recommend him to anyone in the Sydney area.


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## zulu (Mar 24, 2006)

olivehydra said :


> His test for IBD and OPMV was to observe the snake climbing on a perch. Anything less than surefootedness was then diagnosed as either being "probably" IBD or OPMV? I would imagine this could be somewhat disturbing for some??


Well i havent gone through the branch routine but yeh if things show neurological symptoms or move irregular they suspect IBD or OPMV.A friend had quite a die off and would get post mortem after post mortem costing a fortune and results were inconclusive and he went to a prominent penrith herp vet and he looked and said OPMV.The real cause that vets disnt pick up on was that the snakes were kept in a garage and even with fans on constantly they get too hot in summer and it gradually wears them down effecting the immune system.Yeh things that die first from constant overheating is diamonds and jungles etc and even the ones like bhps and womas etc cant cop it for too long without something packing it in,as i think sadji said they have salmonella all the time but it onley effects them when the immune system packs up.A prominent herper that used to oversee the reptiles at featherdale once told me that overheatingon a constant basis was one of the biggest problems with herps and most think it is under heating.I use trueblues methods of keeping now and have no problem,many of these overheated snakes ime talking about actually bred including BHPs cause that activity was when the months was cooler.Ide gather that rockman would use trueblues methods but i dont know for sure,i wouldnt argue with the vets if they said he had OPMV in twelth cases,he seems to have overcome the infection and thats great news,losing that many snakes is a heartbreaker.


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## Wrasse (Mar 25, 2006)

zulu said:


> Well i havent gone through the branch routine but yeh if things show neurological symptoms or move irregular they suspect IBD or OPMV.A friend had quite a die off and would get post mortem after post mortem costing a fortune and results were inconclusive and he went to a prominent penrith herp vet and he looked and said OPMV.The real cause that vets disnt pick up on was that the snakes were kept in a garage and even with fans on constantly they get too hot in summer and it gradually wears them down effecting the immune system.Yeh things that die first from constant overheating is diamonds and jungles etc and even the ones like bhps and womas etc cant cop it for too long without something packing it in,as i think sadji said they have salmonella all the time but it onley effects them when the immune system packs up.



This is what I have been saying.

People/Vets scream OPMV without going into the other causes of RI or Neurological symptoms. While OPMV is the catchcry, Vets have a good excuse not to look any further. This is not out of laziness, just lack of knowledge.

*Antaresia Lady*, no-one will give you a straight answer about OPMV, because, as Sdaji pointed out, no-one has one.

In a quick nutshell, without getting deep into variiants: As I understand it, there appears to be two forms to OPMV. 

-One is the RI symptom form, which, it is thought/understood, if they can get past it, they can recover from.
-One being neurological, where head control, stargazing, bodily control/motor control, is uncontrolled. This form has pretty much shown itself to be untreatable. 

Both forms, eventually, (the RI form if not treated successfully) may result in pneumonia and do result in lesions of the brain which of course, kills. It is these lesions that are looked for in a Post Mortem Electron Microscopy. (Super magnifed microscope).

Of course, if the lesions are not found in an EM, it doesn't rule OPMV out but it doesn't prove it either. Back to square one, do you have OPMV in your collection or don't you? It is this elusiveness that makes it so easy for people/vets to fall back on OPMV as an excuse.

OPMV stands for - Ophidian Paromyxovirus


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 25, 2006)

Thankyou Wrasse for your explanation- I at least understood that one!


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## Stevo (Mar 25, 2006)

Its is certainly a very tricky and touchy subject. I had a slight scare about a year ago with a darwin carpet and it is not a nice feeling. I had owned the darwin for nine years and was my favourite snake. After cooling (which can lower the immune system) when heat returned to normal , i noticed he wasnt as active as normal. His tail was starting to kink and in a matter of a 2 weeks it was progressing up the body. I was scared outa my wits thinking IBD so promptly took him to a well known herp vet in victoria. Kudos to the vet he was very honest but only suggested that there was a chance it could be IBD. Because not enough is known and symptons can differ the only way to test is post mortem. I agreed to have him euthanised (nearly cried) and then had the longest week waiting for results. I was thinking if it is i have to euthanise 24 pythons , which apart from the monetary value is something I wouldnt want anyone to have to do. The vet had concluded it was neurological but told me that there is 5 ways for it to have happened
1. toxic (as stated by wrasse i think which is poisoning or similar)
2. from a blow to the head or fall
3 bacterial (danger)
4 viral (danger)
5 degenerative 
The autopsy was done to try and rule out options 3 and 4, which means it was contracted from something.
The results of the autopsy ruled out a bacterail or viral reason, so i was very happy but still didnt answer what it was. I have kept the autopsy result and had no problem with any reptile since but because of the worry have upgraded quarantine and only bought 2 snakes since. It really makes you worry about purchasing animals of anyone.
Stevo


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## Sdaji (Mar 25, 2006)

Heat stress is another common cause of neurological problems, often misdiagnosed as OPMV.

The "two forms of OPMV" almost certainly represent two different things, both lumped together due to a lack of knowledge/understanding. A lot less is known about reptile viruses than most people realise. We don't even understand some fairly common human viruses for lack of funding; reptile viruses are obviously receiving even less attention from those with the resources to properly research it.


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## Wrasse (Mar 25, 2006)

..and as long as we keep diagnosing every odd symptom our reptiles show, as OPMV, no further research will get done.


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## Craig2 (May 28, 2006)

well since it came up agn here is what was said last time


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## Deb64 (May 28, 2006)

This is such a scary topic..... Its one we dont want to see written as it makes us realise how close to home it is.. 
I am very interested in reading posts from people who have been through it and survived it... I want to know what they went through and how they got through it.. 
is there life AFTER OPMV?


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## Moreliaman (May 28, 2006)

the sadest thing really (apart from you lot bickering instead of having a healthy debate) is...should the unthinkable actually happen.......by the time you realise your collection has the virus....half if not all of your stock will be infected...and it will be too late !


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