# On green pythons



## Waterrat (Feb 18, 2011)

I have probably seen every ad and every picture of GTP posted here and elsewhere over the last few years and I came to the conclusion that what's of offer is pretty much all the same. Plane green, some with white spots here and there, some yellow, some "high yellow' which turn green on maturity and some nice locality type like Baden's sorongs. Someone here was advertising for unusual GTPs to buy but I don't think he had much luck.
Yet, I know there are some stunners out there in collections; blues, mite phase, real high yellows, even ..... better not mention it.
Some of the owners of these spectacular snakes have a single animal with no intention of breeding it (a bit hard, I know), some have pairs but didn't breed them yet, others are too young to breed. Those who produced stunning GTPs probably dispersed them amongst mates and without advertising (good on them).

I wonder, is there going to be a second wave that will bring designer GTPs into the Aussie market? When? How are the prices going to compare to the norm?


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## Gibblore (Feb 18, 2011)

WoW thats different, it would be interesting to see what colour combos could be produced with this species


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## Dannyboi (Feb 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> ..... better not mention it.


Hmmm you said that just to get people wondering didn't you? 
Its beautiful but with GTP's I think the solid colour looks the best. Blue, Yellow or Green white stripes are pretty cool but the solid patternless are just stunning. JMO


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## pythons73 (Feb 18, 2011)

I know exactly what you mean Michael,theres actually a Mite phase 4 sale atm at a great price.Those Sorongs of Badens are STUNNING..IMO i would think with the right pairing there could be some real stunners produced.I love the "High yellows" with little to none green.With the amount of Chondros out there atm im very surprised theres not many more "special looking morphs".


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## Jumala (Feb 18, 2011)

bit of a sucker for the original and natural colour for the native Aust GTP. I'm sure there are some variations out there for the Aussie greens but nothing like the colours produced from mixing localities .... 

I can admire the morphs and appreciate their beauty but I wouldn't keep one. 

JMO


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## Braidotti (Feb 18, 2011)

Waterrat, are you going to start working on any new colour morph projects soon ?


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## Waterrat (Feb 18, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> Waterrat, are you going to start working on any new colour morph projects soon ?


I will start "soon" but the set back is; have to keep all of the progeny for 12 months or so to see how they colour up, then select the best as future breeders, so anything half decent will be marketable in 5 years. I with they would grow and colour up like carpets - wishful thinking.


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## guzzo (Feb 18, 2011)

How can we improve on the already second most perfect snake there is..the GTP ??.....The Darwin is the most perfect....haha


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## dossy (Feb 18, 2011)

that look pretty cool, i wonder if i could get into a aussie cricket game with that drapped around my neck and sayd its a scaf


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## hurcorh (Feb 18, 2011)

check out 'Mr Lemon'. one of snake ranches green tree pythons.


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## solar 17 (Feb 18, 2011)

l believe its just like Michael [waterrat] said there are a lot of very very nice individual animals out there and not so many pairs of them with the making of offspring a bit of a stab in the dark unless you sit that 1st. year out to see what colours and sexes you have and unfortunately not a lot of people have the time or space


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## gozz (Feb 18, 2011)

very nice....!!! Baden


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## drake84 (Feb 18, 2011)

Yeah, check out Mr Lemon, I believe snakeranch plan to breed him soon.

Green Tree python - Morelia viridis - Our Snakes - Snake Ranch


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## Dannyboi (Feb 18, 2011)

Check out URS's Ultimate blue. There is a GTP draped around her that looks pure yellow.

[ *no links please *]


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## Waterrat (Feb 18, 2011)

I have checked all of these many times - nothing new. Why aren't snakes of that quality being bred and their progeny advertised? Ahhhh, I suppose only John and Tim can answer that one but that's not the point. I just thought the collector's mentality would kick in and people will start longing for something new after seeing more or less the same on the market for a few years now.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Feb 18, 2011)

As Michael states, there are some stunners floating around, most were from a "bunch" that was available a couple of years ago. There are some real high yellow animals that will be paired this season from a few different keepers. But as he says, its a bloody long and tricky process to get the best of the best. But there will be a lucky few who snare some quality offspring from these pairings. Cant wait.......

Michael, how are your mite phase and high contrast chondros coming along, any update pics available.......


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## ramzee86 (Feb 18, 2011)

URS's ultimate blue (Looks amazing) is just a female who has gone through hormonal colour change after having a few clutches... all of its babies will be normal looking GTP's.
And the 'yellow' is just a normal lime coloured GTP.

Snake Ranchs Mr. Lemon is real nice but i think it was paired with just a normal looking GTP, therefore the babies may not show as high yellow colourings as Mr Lemon... but they'll still be really nice !

I think Greatsnakes (from here) has some really nice animals, including red hatchies, but i don't know if his pairing that real nice GTP he showed on the GTP thread.

The most different GTP i think that are for sale in Aus are the mite phase...
I hope the colour morphs like Greg Maxwells start to come in to the Australian market, i think it will really help the hobby

Please quote me if im wrong with any of the above ^


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## Waterrat (Feb 18, 2011)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Michael, how are your mite phase and high contrast chondros coming along, any update pics available.......



They are now mature and don't expect them to change colour any more. The mite phase girl didn't want to stick her head out (shy female).


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## CodeRed (Feb 18, 2011)

There are some cracker melanistic chrondros floating around. Michael you know who has them ... ns


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## Waterrat (Feb 18, 2011)

CodeRed said:


> There are some cracker melanistic chrondros floating around. Michael you know who has them ... ns


 
I know. They're not exactly floating around. lol


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## CodeRed (Feb 18, 2011)

and here is a high yellow one that I sold a while back. This was probably from that "batch" of yellow that was previously mentioned









Waterrat said:


> I know. They're not exactly floating around. lol


 
Yeah I wasnt sure if I could put up some pics or not


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## pythons73 (Feb 18, 2011)

I love those Sorongs Baden,whats the chances the offspring will turn out like the parents..I like yellows,just like that one Codered,very nice indeed.If only they did colour up as early as other Carpets Michael,things would be alot different,but as already been mentioned the offspring needs to be keeped for around 10-12months to see what ones are the best for future breeding.So having both parents" Mite phase"would all the offspring be like the parents,or only a percentage.Unfortunately theres some real nice Chondros out there but not many like to show them off,or dont post on a public forum..


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## Waterrat (Feb 18, 2011)

It's a very interesting game. I know a few people with nice specimens, not necessarily breeders, but their snakes are not for sale even if you "flash the cash". That's what prompted me to start this thread. .... The second wave is coming, I think.


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## Greenmad (Feb 18, 2011)

here a project im working on these 3 are all between 3.5 and 5 years old.


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## Dannyboi (Feb 18, 2011)

I dunno I think they would let you have them if you payed them enough everyone has their price.


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## congo_python (Feb 18, 2011)

Heres a pic of my 5yr old yellow girl from about 2yrs ago......she has much more yellow on her now and my blue girl that has slowly been turning mite phase and she's also 5yrs old,black scales are a little hard too see along her back but their amoungst the dark green.... alittle easier too see with the blue on her belly.
So this girl actually has 5 colours in her blue,green,white,yellow and black........love her pitch black tail tip too

Cheers
Congo


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## zuesowns (Feb 18, 2011)

Just when you thought greens couldn't get more appealing. great pics


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## jinjajoe (Feb 18, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> I dunno I think they would let you have them if you payed them enough everyone has their price.


 
believe me this is not the case.... I have tried.


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## Perko (Feb 18, 2011)

In the same "batch" from a few years ago there was a couple of almost black hatchies, would love to see how they turned out!


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## Kenno (Feb 18, 2011)

Here's a photo of a 3year old 1800g female.


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## Greenmad (Feb 18, 2011)

very nice kenno


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## Jeffa (Feb 18, 2011)

Keep the locales pure.

I have seen the website fine gtps and believe a few are crackers but most are butt ugly that people will pay good money for. 

Waterrat, invest in morphs if you want too, but make sure you keep alot of natives pure bred and other locales such as sarongs pure as well.
At the end of the day IMO pure locals will and hope to be the superrior and rarer obtainable GTP. You cant improve on perfect.
Keep up the good work of yourself and Baden etc and sell what these beautiful snakes are worth. Maybe the new designer looking python is todays new style but it will always come back to the original locale classic. 

Keep up the good work.


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## Owzi (Feb 18, 2011)

Kenno said:


> View attachment 186868
> 
> 
> Here's a photo of a 3year old 1800g female.


 
Is this fair dinkum? I thought most people were pushing to get there Greens over 1000g by 3 years? Beautiful snake, the photo is deceptive for size though.

I am always looking at advertisments for Greens to see whats out there & where this will go is Aus. I'm sure many people are laying low on their projects. I thought GreatSnakes had some nice red neonates a couple of seasons ago, one in particular with reduced markings (compaired to its siblings). Does anyone know the person advertising the Green Python collection on herp trader, 20 odd snakes? They mention having "high blue" animals (as well as hormonal).

I believe red neonates will be the next thing people go crazy over. There are some out there that come from very mixed/muddled background though that I don't really get what the breeders are trying to achieve with the pairings. Interesting though.


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## lgotje (Feb 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I have probably seen every ad and every picture of GTP posted here and elsewhere over the last few years and I came to the conclusion that what's of offer is pretty much all the same. Plane green, some with white spots here and there, some yellow, some "high yellow' which turn green on maturity and some nice locality type like Baden's sorongs. Someone here was advertising for unusual GTPs to buy but I don't think he had much luck.
> Yet, I know there are some stunners out there in collections; blues, mite phase, real high yellows, even ..... better not mention it.
> Some of the owners of these spectacular snakes have a single animal with no intention of breeding it (a bit hard, I know), some have pairs but didn't breed them yet, others are too young to breed. Those who produced stunning GTPs probably dispersed them amongst mates and without advertising (good on them).
> 
> I wonder, is there going to be a second wave that will bring designer GTPs into the Aussie market? When? How are the prices going to compare to the norm?


 
pretty sure that was me and im stil looking 

if anyone is selling differnt gtps please contact me as im very interested cheers locky


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## congo_python (Feb 22, 2011)

*GTP Males spurs*

My male gtp shed a couple of nights ago and thought id take a pic of his spurs as their HUGE......take a look see


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## whyme (Feb 22, 2011)

Imagine a gtp with no white or blue, but black markings, and half a black/navy head, with a white/gunmetal blue underbelly! Reckon it would look pretty cool!


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## Waterrat (Feb 23, 2011)

Owzi said:


> I believe red neonates will be the next thing people go crazy over. There are some out there that come from very mixed/muddled background though that I don't really get what the breeders are trying to achieve with the pairings. Interesting though.



I think the red babies are bit of a temporary attraction. There is no evidence that they will look spectacular at maturity. We haven't got enough experience with this but talking to the big GTP breeders in US, the word goes "don't underestimate the yellow hatchlings, you often get much nicer snakes from them". A friend of mine had 2 mixed clutches (red and Yellow) and the nicest adults were those from yellow juvs.


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## Owzi (Feb 24, 2011)

Yeah it will be interesting to see how/where this goes. It seems that in the US, Maxwell & Walder (etc.) often price (or priced) individual hatchlings from the same clutch differently. They almost always put a higher price on the red neonates. I think once people get into the true "designer" greens here, the same will happen. I have already seen it here, though I don't believe it's justified yet.

Michael, what colour were your mite phase greens as hatchlings?


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

Owzi said:


> Michael, what colour were your mite phase greens as hatchlings?



They were yellow. Actually, I am going to grade and price accordingly native yearlings next year (that's if I have any). Everybody wants the ones with a solid line, so they will be the top line.


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## viridis (Feb 25, 2011)

This female produced some nice neonates this season. I will upload more photos of the female & male in a few days once we take a few new photos






These are a few neonates that we are holding back for a few months


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

Good stuff Nick, wana do some trading?


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## saximus (Feb 25, 2011)

Damn these snakes are beautiful. How long do they take to go fully green? I was under the impression it was only a year or two but seeing Kenno's 3 y.o. that was obviously wrong.


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

They don't necessarily go all green, they can be yellow + green, spotted, blue, etc, as adults. That's the beauty of it.... and the gamble.


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## CodeRed (Feb 25, 2011)

viridis said:


> This female produced some nice neonates this season. I will upload more photos of the female & male in a few days once we take a few new photos
> 
> These are a few neonates that we are holding back for a few months



Stunners!! I'd be holding the whole clutch back


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## Kurto (Feb 25, 2011)

CodeRed said:


> Stunners!! I'd be holding the whole clutch back


 
Your not wrong! 

Nice animals nick!


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## lgotje (Feb 25, 2011)

there crackers viridis i want some of those lol


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## guzzo (Feb 25, 2011)

I have seen on the net pictures of bright blue GTP's (or BTP's I suppose) Do these really exist or are are they just photoshopped pictures.


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

guzzo said:


> I have seen on the net pictures of bright blue GTP's (or BTP's I suppose) Do these really exist or are are they just photoshopped pictures.



Both.


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## guzzo (Feb 25, 2011)

Do you have any pics of a real one? Very interesting blue! have you heard of this colour phase being found in the wild or is it more of a selective breeding project?


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

Both.


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## jamesbecker (Feb 25, 2011)

they also go more blueish when ovulating


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## snakelady-viper (Feb 25, 2011)

I dont think you can go much past Waterrats and Solar 17 they have amazing gtp


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## longqi (Feb 25, 2011)

Pure Biak but quite cute
Hoping they keep the black


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

jamesbecker said:


> they also go more blueish when ovulating


 They turn "bluish" after a clutch or two and some (not all) turn blue after several clutches. They don't change colour during ovulation.


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## pythons73 (Feb 25, 2011)

IYE(in ur experience) Michael,have you noticed any females that have turned blueish go even more blue-er after there second-third clutch.Ive heard generally after there 2nd-3rd clutch they are even more bluer then the first clutch.Have you had any that have stayed that colour and had any more clutches..
Heres a picture for you Guzzo..


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

The colour change after first clutch is hardly noticeable, it's more of a darker green rather than bluish. After a third clutch the change is very evident and they don't revert to green.
Here you can see the progression (the same female):

Also, someone commented at the Sydney expo about the dark green stripe on the back of Adrian's exhibit - the native female, casting doubts about her locality origins. This is a classical example - a 100% native female. This stripe is not unusual at all and I reckon it looks terrific.


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## viridis (Feb 25, 2011)

Now thats an Aussie that I would have Michael!

I just love the strong dorsal stripe that are found on many wild specimens like this one I photographed a few years ago


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## Dannyboi (Feb 25, 2011)

guzzo said:


> Do you have any pics of a real one? Very interesting blue! have you heard of this colour phase being found in the wild or is it more of a selective breeding project?


Check out URS's Ultimate Blue. Its on the site. I have no idea if its photoshopped but I doubt they would do that.


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

Nice specimen Nick. I spoke to many people about this magical white stripe but no one knows why the captive-bred snakes have reduced markings. There are plenty of theories and ideas and speculations but no one came up with any evidence or not even a valid argument what determines the extend of the vertebral line. The thing is, I always get a few good ones in every clutch but there are also quite a few very poor ones. UV? No way! From a physiological point of view that doesn't make sense and I have tested that theory myself - nah!
If I was to speculate, it's something to do with embryonic development and that leads to incubation techniques and temps. I wonder, would maternal incubation turn out more striped animals?


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## Dannyboi (Feb 25, 2011)

Try it. get a clutch and do a control group half with maternal incubation and half via incubators give the maternal incubated snakes all the myths related to stripes and the incubated ones nothing but what they need. I am sure there would be a better way to design this experiment though.


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

Easy to say!
One clutch split in half wouldn't give you enough replication and if you take few clutches from different parents, the parent pairs would have to be identical (phenotypically). What of it is a genetic trait?


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## Dannyboi (Feb 25, 2011)

As I said that would prove or disprove the use of UV and maternal incubation. If its genetic then the experimental design wouldn't work. I guess it would take years just to get an indication as to what causes the white stripe.


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## Braidotti (Feb 25, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Easy to say!
> One clutch split in half wouldn't give you enough replication and if you take few clutches from different parents, the parent pairs would have to be identical (phenotypically). What of it is a genetic trait?



In regards to the dorcile strip, could it have something to do with the original wild GTP that were caught for the hobby ?


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## pythons73 (Feb 25, 2011)

It would take years and a few clutches to determine if the temperature in the incubation process is the result regarding the white dorsal stripe.So basically a female that is a nice blue-ish colour wouldve had a few clutches.I realise each snake is a individual and some will go bluer then others,but just like the one URS has,how clutches has she had.So i wonder if maternal incubation would give much of a difference regarding the dorsal stripe.Thats a fantastic example Michael of the colour change..I like that photo Nick,very nice indeed..


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

A friend of mine has got a female that is blue as the sky. It's not a native, neither is the one Tim has. Maybe the non-native mix blood females are more prone to go blue. ???

_In regards to the dorcile strip, could it have something to do with the original wild GTP that were caught for the hobby ? _

Not sure what exactly you mean but it's a trend observed by the US breeders working with wild caught Merauke GTPs.


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## Radar (Feb 25, 2011)

Sounds like you need to give someone a few hundred GTP eggs and parental tissue/data to do a PhD on disentangling the genotype x environment effects on phenotype 

Have got to say I prefer just a straight, clean bright green....


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

rednut said:


> Sounds like you need to give someone a few hundred GTP eggs and parental tissue/data to do a PhD on disentangling the genotype x environment effects on phenotype



It could also be hormonal, who knows. We don't even know how it works - do the chromatophores produce blue pigment over the yellow base or is there a complete change over? So many questions.


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## pythons73 (Feb 25, 2011)

Wouldnt It have to do with hormonal change,considering only the females go blue,Spot on,so many questions,so little answers..


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## Radar (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry, should have clarrified that I was talking about the dorsal stripe


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## Waterrat (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry, it was me who confused the discussion. What I meant, the white pigment of the dorsal stripe starts to appear during the ontogenetic colour change, not at hatching, so there may be some link to physiological changes at that time, instead of during incubation.


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## ramzee86 (Feb 25, 2011)

Could it be something to do with the temperature range that they have in iron range? Because we know (unlike in captivity) that they arent going to be in an environment 27-32 degrees year round? Or could it do with something they get from what their pray eat? (if that makes sense :s)


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## aussie-albino (Feb 25, 2011)

Interesting observations waterrat, it's always good to read your GTP observations, good thread to btw brought out some awesome photos.
cheers
Scott


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## Moreliavridis (Feb 25, 2011)

This thread is possibly one of the best i have seen in a while! Some great discussions going on!
Could the white dorsal strip have something to do with stress? Id imagine that a wild gtp would either have more to stress about or less compared to captive specimens.


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## Owzi (Feb 25, 2011)

It sure is an interesting question about the stripe. Actually the white scales in general look totally different to the green scales, they are generally much bulkier & thicker. I assumed there must be something we are doing wrong with our captive environments, Greg Maxwell put a different spin on things when talking about Meraukes in his book- "is it possible that white scales are the result of some physiological abnormality, and that captive breeding slowly reduces the factors responsible for them"?


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## Waterrat (Feb 26, 2011)

That's an interesting theory but somehow it doesn't sit well with me. Pigment (in all animals) is laid down from the dorsal (along the spine) down to sides and ventral parts of the body. If there was a natural abnormality there, one would expect some flow effect down the sides. Plus, there is this question; what is different between wild and captive regimes that would influence this trait?

I haven't had any Merauke GTPs in my hands but the white scales on Aussie natives are the same shape and thickness as the green ones. Also, they are not only in line, there are often white scales randomly scattered on the sides and/or running off the main line. Notice that not all the scales are either green or white (pic 1) , there is an overlap in colours. On the juvenile's back (pis 2), we can see what appears like the white line that may eventually turn into the real, adult white line. Not so. On pic 3, there is almost unbroken line on the posterior, however this got fragmented as the snakes got older. On pic 4, we can see black scales that along the vertebral line that also disappear within few months after OCC. It's all very interesting.


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## krefft (Feb 26, 2011)

Here are a few floating around collections.
Some of the pics I've put up before, so if you've seen them before you don't need to look again if you don't want to.


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## saximus (Feb 26, 2011)

Wow Krefft that last one is incredible. How many clutches has she had to go that blue? Also amateur question but why do they go blue


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## grimjob (Feb 26, 2011)

This is my sorong 14 months old getting some really nice black scales on his neck hope they keep coming


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## Waterrat (Feb 26, 2011)

grimjob said:


> This is my sorong 14 months old getting some really nice black scales on his neck hope they keep coming


 
Where is the photo?


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## lgotje (Feb 26, 2011)

grimjob said:


> This is my sorong 14 months old getting some really nice black scales on his neck hope they keep coming


 
wheres the pic nathan?

kreft u have awsome greens man im soo jealous


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## DanN (Feb 28, 2011)

Hi Michael,

I think what most people take for granted is that the absence (or reduction) of white scales on GTP is not just a phenomenon seen with Merauke/CYP GTP but with them all. 

There is something, exactly what I have no clue, about the captive environment that reduces the number and intensity of white scales on captive green pythons.

Sorongs, Biaks, etc etc - the list goes on, all have varying degrees of white in the wild, but not in captivity. Diet is known to have a significant effect on chromatophores - maybe the lab-rat diet isn't condusive to white?

Dan


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## Bushman (Feb 28, 2011)

Very interesting Dan. I think that you're onto something there. 
Although somewhat speculative, your theory makes a lot of sense to me and is well worth following up. 

Michael, are pics 3 and 4 of different animals?
This is a great thread. Thanks for sharing your insights.


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## Waterrat (Mar 1, 2011)

Bushman said:


> Michael, are pics 3 and 4 of different animals?
> This is a great thread. Thanks for sharing your insights.



Yes, they are different animals.

Dan, I have to start feeding the hatchlings moths and other invertebrates (lol), the odd frog and wild caught skinks. Let them starve for months from time to time and infest them with some parasites. Worth a try!


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## ramzee86 (Mar 2, 2011)

Quoted by Maxwell on Merauke GTPs "it is possible that elevation is I
portant factor is the appearance of these animals. All the GTP specimens Karl Switak saw beginning at 4000 ft up were fully striped animals, but they were much more variable at lower elevations."


Or is that idea ruled out now?


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## longqi (Mar 2, 2011)

I have long thought that constant temperatures are probably not conducive to getting the best results from chondros and many other species

That observation by GM about elavation is possibly very valid because the higher you go the bigger are the temperature variables between day and night etc
Once you get over 10,000ft the nights can be bitterly cold
The level of UV would also increase


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## ramzee86 (Mar 2, 2011)

Sorry about my spelling mistakes, but thats interesting, i'd like to hear Michaels thoughts also?


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## Waterrat (Mar 2, 2011)

It well may be the case in PNG but Iron Range is a coastal rainforest. High and low altitudes in PNG reflect high and low day / night temp fluctuations, whilst Cape York's seasonality reflects the same in winter time.
Elevation and its possible effect on coloration and markings does not apply to our natives.


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## killimike (Mar 2, 2011)

Plus you keep yours outdoors Michael, so they aren't at a constant temp in an indoor enclosure.


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## DanN (Mar 2, 2011)

Hi,

Michael, that would be interesting, however, more likely a few would die and you wouldn't find anything exciting anyway! And I am still not convinced of the moths, invertebrates and frogs... 

Ramzee, elevation has nothing to do with it. Switak's observations were correct although what he didn't know was that he was actually encountering two very different forms of green python. He attributed the difference to elevation but all he really did was observe the biogeographical effects of the New Guinea mountain range.

I am actually quite sure diet is the reason. I cannot think of anything else associated with the captive environment that would have such an effect.

Dan


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## Waterrat (Mar 2, 2011)

If we are still talking about the vertebral line, I am "becoming" convinced that it's a random phenomenon. You get huge variation in captive bred GTPs and I bet you get the same variation in wild GTP yearlings. No one has seen enough of them in the wild. Who knows how many survive their first year of life.

Keep it going Dan, where are you now?

Michael


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## DanN (Mar 2, 2011)

Funnily enough I'm at an internet cafe in Merauke... actually saw 3 green pythons today, one with the best stripe I have ever seen and the other with a broken (but still good) stripe. The 3rd was a juvie.

You are probably right, same thing happens with the Aru's I have seen. Even in the wild the degree of white is highly variable. I even have photos of a recent snake from Tanah Merah which has no white at all.

Having said that, although the white is variable I still think captive animals consistently have less white than wild-caught.

Dan


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## Waterrat (Mar 2, 2011)

Hey Dan, we should do that book we talked about. I am taking a year off breeding (no point, the market is stuffed) and I am ready to step outside the square. Ah?


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## ramzee86 (Mar 3, 2011)

Hmm there seems to be no end to this lol...
If you think it's diet Dan, could you specify, as in would you think its calcium or protein or... ?


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## DanN (Mar 3, 2011)

Michael, email sent. I am not sure about what in the diet may have that effect. It is merely an educated guess and could be completely wrong. At first guess I would have said UV also but if Michael kept his snakes outside with no change then I think diet is the next best bet.


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## Bushman (Mar 3, 2011)

Let's test this theory of yours Dan on native neonates. 
Shall we both do it Michael or were you only joking?


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## DanN (Mar 3, 2011)

Patrick, if your willing to do the experiment and have the spare animals I'll get you both the animal ethics and university affiliation


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## Bushman (Mar 3, 2011)

You have yourself a deal Dan.


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## viridis (Mar 3, 2011)

DanN said:


> At first guess I would have said UV also but if Michael kept his snakes outside with no change then I think diet is the next best bet.


 
Has anybody actually witnessed a wild caught, I.R animal loose the white stripe? I would love to see a few different photos of wild I.R Chondros that have no striping.

Michael,
Whilst your Chondros are kept outside, I thought from memory that the cages are not in direct sunlight and that they had an awning or something over them? I may be wrong as it has been a few years since I have been at your place.

One particular Chondro that I encountered at rest in I.R was actually coiled up in a lot more direct sunlight than what I would have thought. This animal in mention was found undisturbed and coiled up on its branch. It was not cool as it was the midday in December, so it was not basking due to a cooler temp.?

In my opinion, U.V and diet would play some part in it. 

People seem to forget that selective captive breeding should increase the animals striping, not decrease it.

Some food for thought.

Nick Stock


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## Waterrat (Mar 3, 2011)

Dan, email sent.
I am adjunct with the School of Marine and Tropical Biology at JCU and have access to AEC. "Spare animals" sounds like strange words to me but ..... I honestly don't see any major breakthrough without an input from a physiologist.

Bushman, I was joking, at least with the parasites. I have some hypothesis that could be tested but whatever causes the OCC, we need to understand the physiological process - what is happening within the chromatophores. That's MO.



viridis said:


> Has anybody actually witnessed a wild caught, I.R animal loose the white stripe? You mean one without a stripe or lost stripe after taken into captivity? I would love to see a few different photos of wild I.R Chondros that have no striping.
> 
> Michael,
> Whilst your Chondros are kept outside, I thought from memory that the cages are not in direct sunlight and that they had an awning or something over them? I may be wrong as it has been a few years since I have been at your place. They can and do bask - see photo bellow.
> ...



Cheers
M


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## ramzee86 (Mar 3, 2011)

Michael have you ever kept juvies outdoor under direct sunlight? (and obviously the option for shade)


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## Waterrat (Mar 3, 2011)

Not directly, they were under filtered sun light. This UV theory really doesn't make any sense, I had many discussions with educated people on this subject and the consensus was - how would you explain it? Think about this; during the wet season the sun doesn't come out for weeks at the time and each year the climatic regime is (at least slightly) different.


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## pythons73 (Mar 3, 2011)

You are probably right, same thing happens with the Aru's I have seen. Even in the wild the degree of white is highly variable. I even have photos of a recent snake from Tanah Merah which has no white at all.



Dan[/QUOTE]

What a captive or wild one,do you mean Taneh Merah in SE QLD.Most photos of wild greens ive seen from I.R do have atleast partial striping,if not full stripe.Wouldnt it be just everyones quess as no-one has been taking data over the years regarding the stripe.I think were only just figuring out the OCC or atleast Michael has alot more info as hes been collecting data with his hatchies-yearlings..


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## viridis (Mar 3, 2011)

Overseas Python73, not SE QLD

Thanks for the pics Michael.

Has anyone seen a wild adult I.R animal without heavy striping and has anyone ever seen the stripe fade away in captivity on a snake that was once striped ect?

Although the sun may not be shining down for hours on end during the wet, there is still strong U.V rays coming through on the most overcast of days. There would be plenty of U.V rays on any given day in I.R each year.

What about the selective breeding of two heavily striped animals? We are seeing less captive Aussie animals with stripes on them every year when there clearly should be more?


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## Dannyboi (Mar 3, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Not directly, they were under filtered sun light. This UV theory really doesn't make any sense, I had many discussions with educated people on this subject and the consensus was - how would you explain it? Think about this; during the wet season the sun doesn't come out for weeks at the time and each year the climatic regime is (at least slightly) different.


Just going to quote the multiple skin cancer ads and say that the clouds can be out but it doesn't mean that UV doesn't penetrate. But I would say that UV has all of it because I don't know about their anatomy.


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## Waterrat (Mar 3, 2011)

viridis said:


> Overseas Python73, not SE QLD
> 
> Thanks for the pics Michael.
> 
> ...


How do we know that Nick, how many clutches were produced and what % were poorly striped animals? We could talk about this all day but there are no data to prove or disprove this heresy. Look at the "blistered patient" on mine in another thread - he has got terrific stripe.

I am bit worried that without understanding of the physiological process, all conclusions from our experimental efforts may be invalid because one could argue; are Nth generation captive bred juveniles true representation of the wild GTPs? What if their potential for a strong stripe has been compromised few generations back?


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## ramzee86 (Mar 3, 2011)

I understand that you really don't think UV is the decider of colour.... Also, to my understanding is that even the wild gtp neonates have reduced colouring? If this is the case could it even be from before birth, the maternal incubation factor that determines future colour? Because we know with carpets that messing around with incubation temps can cause some pretty wacky patterning... I'm coming up with as many suggestions so that you can at least rule out what it isn't and what's left to try.


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## Waterrat (Mar 3, 2011)

Suggestions can only be ruled out by proper scientific investigation. Nothing else. Give me 60K and I take it up. LOL


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## DanN (Mar 3, 2011)

Hi, Michael, you are correct, a physiologist or biochemist is the best person but they don't have the animals and that is where a keeper comes in. 
By "spare animals" I would suspect that most people aren't willing to subject their snakes to a a study of this kind. There may be need for dissection, scale clips etc. 
I have to disagree with your wet season sunlight theory. There are very few days during the wet season when there is not some sunlight penetration during the day. 

Nick, I have seen great stripes on many animals in IR but only a single animal with 0 stripe. Interestingly McIlwraith animals have (in general) better stripes than IR animals - maybe because they are closer to the sun... (that was a joke). 

The best example of a fading stripe is the old animal(s) collected by Joe Bredl that went to Graeme Gow - had stripe and lost it. Of all the long term captive Meraukes and CYP animals I have seen (many) Michael's have kept their stripe the best - maybe because he keeps his adults outside or maybe coincidence??? 

Michael is right, there is not really much more to say on the subject that isn't speculation. Until someone has the time and resources to figure it out we won't know. 

Good fun speculating though isn't it! 

Dan


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## Jeffa (Mar 3, 2011)

Would it be worth giving the maternal incubation method as opposed the artificial method a go? Obviously the futher north you are the more similar the temps to Iron range would be (eg cairns). Michael would this be a more costly or time wasting effort? I know we all agreed that you would need quite a few say trial animals to conduct this experiment but with your knowledge and previous breeding data, new results may suprise us. 
Great thread by the way.


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## longqi (Mar 3, 2011)

I only use maternal incubation and some have stripes some dont
So I dont think this is relevant


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## viridis (Mar 4, 2011)

CodeRed said:


> Stunners!! I'd be holding the whole clutch back


 


viridis said:


> This female produced some nice neonates this season. I will upload more photos of the female & male in a few days once we take a few new photos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

We just sold a few of the animals I posted in the above photos, someone will have some nice animals!


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 4, 2011)

i wish it was me haha


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## longqi (Mar 5, 2011)

I hope you kept the first hatchling???
I have a three year old male that so far has kept very similar markings
Has turned brighter green but kept the black
Merauki/Aru/Lereh were the parents


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