# Crocodile growth and fat issues.



## Kruger88 (Sep 8, 2010)

Some months ago I was given a baby crocodile by a farm in north QLD. I have the permits and experience required to care for Saltwater crocs however I mainly work with the large adults. I am currently having issues with this 1 baby saltie, for the first 2 months he was going great putting on lots of weight however didn't grow very much. He is mainly on a diet of roo meat with supplements. His enclosure is heated to around 28 degrees and water temp is around 30 degrees, he has sufficient heat gradients and hiding locations. The water is filtered by a basic filter and is rain water with no chlorine.
In the past 3 weeks he has lost a lot of condition and his lack of growth is quite alarming he is still under a foot long and is 4 months old. I am in the process of asking a few wildlife parks what the best solution is however thought i might post here in case someone has ever had the same problem.


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 19, 2010)

Well I didn't get my answer from here (lucky I wasn't waiting). In the end the issue turned out to be the baby croc just didn't seem to swallow his food, he played with it and had it in his mouth however didn't swallow. That of course left me with no other option then to force feed him. On Australia Zoo's head croc keepers advice I have added F10 to his water at a ratio of 1/1000. Hopefully that will help, I will continue to force feed until he is around 12 months old and/or at least 2 - 3 foot long.


----------



## cactus2u (Sep 19, 2010)

Cool that you seem to be on the right path to recovery .Would have been a worry 
Good luck Ya lucky bugger havin a croc


----------



## Crocboy (Sep 19, 2010)

You waited 10 days with out a response! What do you want, useless advice about animals that they dont keep!

Working on a farm you would see that 100% of hatchys dont survive.
When these guys feed in numbers they stimulate each other with movement, you will see they have more than one go at the meat rather than playing and moving on.

Have you tasted the supplement? It is bitter and tastes like crap. It is enough to put any animal off of eating if not mixed in with meat enough. Try small mice, rats, fish etc....

In not sure what putting F10 in the water will do unless there is a fungi or external parasite but force feeding for 12 months! With persistence you should have a feed response before then. Try smaller feeds more often. Sometimes the body shuts down, having a gut full of food that wont digest will cause more problems. 
Try a basking spot of 35c use a Mercury Vapor bulb that provides heat and UV, water at 26-28. If you have the water to warm they never venture out to bask.


----------



## Waterrat (Sep 19, 2010)

In the wild, salties consume large amounts of crustaceans (crabs, prawns), which are rich in protein and calcium. If you have a chance to trap or scoop some live shrimp in your area, that would be great, if not, try a green prawn, scallop, freshwater yabby, etc.. Frogs are also frequently taken by small crocs.
I would give the F10 a miss, it smells even when diluted ..... I don't think it would be effective 1:1000 anyway. Drop the supplements for the time being too. Is the croc alert or lethargic?


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 19, 2010)

@ Crocboy, No i had no intention of waiting any time for a response from here was just curious. I spent a good 2 days contacting around 10 institutions for information in regards to my problem. I am no novice to keeping captive crocs and had in fact tried your suggestions above before consulting others with more experience in neonates. Yes i have tasted the supplements and I know what they taste like and this is counteracted with icing sugar. The animal was force fed for 3 weeks when he was given to me as he was very malnutritioned and this did stimulate his natural feeding pattern however all of a sudden (after 2 months of excellent feeding) he just stopped for no reason. F10 was a suggestion from Aussie Zoo as a way to eliminate external health issues to better find the cause of the animals feeding issues and the dilution was because the animal would be exposed to it for a greater period of time. Rats and Mice were ignored by the croc (even in minute portions) as was fish. I already have a mercury vapor bulb and water temp has been dropped to 28.
@Waterrat. I do have the option of catching them from the wild however disease and parasites are an issue and given the animals current body condition I wouldn't risk it. The croc is alert however is very very shy. 

If it was just a regular baby croc then I prob would have given up but considering he is leucistic I am willing to put in the extra intensive care if need be to give him a good shot.

For Information the baby croc is kept in an enclosure that holds around 500 litres of water and 2 square foot of land.


----------



## Darlyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Don't know if you tried him but Graeme Webb at Crocodylus in Darwin could probably help
you. He knows everthing about crocs.


----------



## Crocboy (Sep 19, 2010)

Leucistic? Do you have any pics?


----------



## Kirby (Sep 19, 2010)

I have no croc experience here, but have you tested your water parameters?

Rainwater is naturally acidic, and lacking in hardness and mineral. Perhaps try Testing your water parameters Ph, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and Phosphate. Perhaps his issue is the water, large amounts of food, or uneaten food waste would surely peak amm and nitrate. thus stressing the animal. I would think adding GeoLiquid for Goldfish to your rainwater would be beneficial in mineral content aswell. 

Lighting may also be an issue. what globes have you got? not just Uvb but also brightness. 

Good luck with him buddy, congrats on the leucistic croc


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 19, 2010)

@ Darlyn - Yeah Greame was one person I tried to contact however he was unavailable at the time. However in a follow up email a few days later he suggested some things.

@ Crocboy - Yes Leucistic is correct, for those that are not aware of that term it means the crocodile is a white crocodile however it is not an albino, it is in fact rarer than an albino. he is white and brown. I do not have pics at the moment however I might consider uploading some. His colour is the reason the park he came from had no use for him. I only know of 3 Leucistic crocs in Australia (1 at Australia Zoo, 1 at Kuranda Crocodile Farm, 1 at Hartleys Crocodile Farm) if you know of anymore please correct me.

@ Kirby - Water is still on the cards however it is a massive tank that does have ample amount of biological filtration IMO, and I did drain the tank and refill with balanced water as this was also suggested by Craig Franklin from Qld Uni. However you are correct it still may be a cause and the F10 and some further testing will hopefully reveal if this is the culprit. Lighting is on a timer that is set to north QLD day lengths (this may also be an area of investigation) the lighting is Mercury Vapor and UV lights with a Reptile Spectrum bulb and a Black light for night time heating. Thanks for the good luck, also it was a shock to receive him actually I was surprised that a Zoo or Wildlife Park hadn't wanted him (though i have a feeling its body condition may have had something to do with it).


----------



## crocodile_dan (Sep 19, 2010)

As has been said above feeding live food may stimulate the appetite small tropical fish (such as live-bearers, not goldfish), crustaceans and cultured insects (crickets and woodies) are suitable as starters for hatchlings. at inadequate temperatures or when subject to temperature variation they will not be attracted to inert food. The importance of a stress-free rearing environment and adequate temperature control is critical. 

As the croc is very shy, environmental factors may be an issue. Do you have further details on the enclosure/setup? juvenile animals are often housed in polyethylene containers with ample cover and dark areas with red heat lamps to emphasize safety and security, limited interference both visual and audial is important as well to reduce stress. maybe placing some shade cloth around the enclosure and providing him hides on land and at the waters edge may be beneficial.

we received two new juvenile farmed crocs (one hatchling the other yearling) recently and animals that have less time spent in farmed conditions adapt better to captive conditions, the longer the animal spends in the 'pens' the greater the risk of stress associated issues in captive enclosure conditions. The most significant factor is human interaction and blocking visual and audial stimuli may improve the condition.


----------



## Kirby (Sep 19, 2010)

Why wouldnt i wish you luck? haha, i want a leucistic croc!!

having a great filter, doesnt mean you have great filtration. 

the F10 will undoubtably kill off any biological filtration and good bacteria. So your waste breakdown from now on may not be an easy ride, and you will likely have ammonia spikes. Please consider getting your water, and even your rain water tested. take it to a reputable aquarium or LFS for the tests i mentioned.

500 litres is still very easy to slip out of balance with waste issues. one uneaten feed left for an hour would still send ammonia through the roof. 

Personally, (keep in mind my Zero Crocodile experience) i would assume the problems are from one or more of three options, water quality, lighting and genetics. 

It is very possible, your water parameters are out. get it tested! 

Your lighting could be emitting incorrect wavelengths, or simply not of enough intensity. By the sounds of it, you have three different forms of lighting which your aims are to provide uvb. you dont seem to have any lighting to create a bright enclosure. the human eye is easily fooled and the enclosure looks bright to you. although i doubt the bulbs you have produce anything over 10, 000 Lux. Naturally the sun provides up to 100,000 Lux. i would kick the black light (which is doing null if not negetive) and the reptile tubes. keep the Mercury vapour bulb, and get yourself some sunlight compact aquarium lighting (not just tube form) to up the brightness, thus activity. 

What brand is the Mvb?

Then theres Genetics, unfortunately, he may have just been born to fail. 

Hopefully its something fixable, and not genetics. 

p.s. i too would love some pics.


----------



## Crocboy (Sep 19, 2010)

One ham sandwich!


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 19, 2010)

Thanks crocodile_dan I had considered placing him in a smaller darkened enclosure, do you have any further suggestions on what type? Black plastic container or polyethylene? Size? He has been in his current enclosure for the whole period that I have had him (he was around 3 weeks old when I obtained him) I might put him in the smaller enclosure and try the live fish. Got any suggestions on particular species of fish as i lack knowledge on fish  Any suggestions on light requirements for him in a box?


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 19, 2010)

@Crocboy. Wish mine was as nice, sadly though he looks like crap atm and its rather depressing. Nice to know there are others out there though. How old is your croc?


----------



## Crocboy (Sep 19, 2010)

I reckon its about 5 yrs. That photo was taken a couple of years ago. Ive had a couple but it doesnt matter what you do sometimes they arent made to survive!

Try cladding your tank in foam sheets, heating with a ceramic globe and using peek holes to asses what happening. If you want a bit of light in there use a moon globe. The foam will insulate for heat and more importantly noise. If the fish start to disappear then try other items. If you are going to force feed try pinky mice, all goes well move him up to velvets. Maybe every couple of days. Give it a chance to digest.


----------



## BenReyn (Sep 19, 2010)

It's interesting to see who the croc owners are .
They've always been on my "when I'm older" list 
Surely, you's are living the dream


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 19, 2010)

Thanks crocboy, I was considering using pinkies how ever was unsure but now u have suggested it i will give it a shot, as the croc is only 1 foot long do u think he will be able to handle a whole one force fed or should i chop it in half or even quarters? As for the enclosure I might get one made up tomorrow and give it a go got any suggestions on size? True some just arn't meant to survive however this one isnt going down without a fight.  Like i have said before I have a lot of experience with the big boys not with the little ones so its a big learning curb for me and every little bit of information is valued. I must remind Wes Mannion one of these days that raising a baby croc isn't as easy as he suggested some years ago. It is a remarkable experience though looking after baby crocs.


----------



## crocodile_dan (Sep 19, 2010)

First of all I am not an expert but I do have several years experience with captive crocs at two zoological institutes so all information provided is done so to the best of what I know is correct and will admit that some information may be corrected by others.

This is the best picture I have of the setup used by the University of Queensland, it is a 240L Nally bin with batten lighting at the rear and a land platform sitting on bricks so that it is elevated above the water. these animals are located in a remote area and there is restricted access minimizing human disturbance. 
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=164356&d=1284900635&thumb=1&stc=1

If possible I would place him in a dark plastic tub (safe to be used around aquatic animals such as something intended for rainwater storage) size is dependent on the size of the animal, provide plenty of shelter (I would put a platform standing on bricks and then maybe some shade cloth or a towel over one end of the tub to create more cover). If stress is the cause of his appetite loss then the housing is important but eliminating the cause of stress is more important, make the area quiet, calm and as undisturbed as possible whilst still observing his condition. Keep in mind that stress may not be the cause, this is just a possibility from the information provided and other factors may be the issue.

The key points are:
Maintain optimal husbandry requirements
Reduce all causes of stress
Housing should be simple practical and above all hygienic, changing to a tub system allows increased hygiene practices incase the issue is caused by hygiene
Maintain good accurate records (temp, behaviour, feeding etc)

stressed crocodiles often will not eat and juveniles regularly eat when they believe they are not being watched, the best way to monitor food intake is by measuring food pre and post offering. *If your really desperate a security camera over the enclosure will let you observe the animal without disturbing it.

As for food I would try beef liver, chicken, roo meat, mice, rats, quail and for live food crickets, woodies, yabbies, guppies, mollies, platys or native fish from aquaculture farms. crocodiles are often active at night and if you count all the live food items each morning that may give an indication if the crocodile is actively hunting at night.

As an extreme case and possibly last resort only: as found by Leon Ojeda et al. in 1998 poorly performing Morelet's crocodiles administered with intramuscular injection of the anabolic steroid Laurobolin at a dose of 1mg/Kg of live mass resulted in marked growth improvements and mass gain for a period of 21 days. **I simply included this information to provide additional information only, this avenue of treatment is serious and requires veterinary guidance I do not believe this is anyway warranted in the current situation but simply to provide information that may be deemed as helpful in the spirit of all relevant information divulged**


----------



## crocodile_dan (Sep 19, 2010)

When force feeding keep in mind that crocodiles require 36H after a meal to empty their stomachs. 

Farm crocodile pens often get daily feeds with none on weekends to allow less dominant crocs access to food when the more dominant ones are digesting I have never worked at a farm but that is my understanding of the feeding schedule.


----------



## pythrulz (Sep 19, 2010)

Crocboy that looks brillant kruger what sort of licence do you need to keep crocs I was recently told by DECCW that crocs where protected species and not allowed to kept at all in NSW


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks crocodile_dan. That information is highly valued and welcomed.

@pythrulz. I currently hold a Non-Indigenous Animal Permit from the NSW DPI (Industry and Investment), The permit is actually a loophole in the law because Saltwater Crocs are also found in other countries hence some could be considered Non-Indigenous  . For those that are interested in keeping alligators this permit also allows this however it is not like a Zoo permit that automatically allows them to keep the species on their category of licence (Class 2, 3a, 3b), You have to apply for a further permit for each species you wish to keep. Crocs and Alligators are class 3b animals and not considered "dangerous" (in the sense of escaping and killing lots of people or the keepers on mass) and are not considered a high pest potential. Dont get me wrong though the licence is not a walk in the park to obtain. I love the fact that in theory I could keep a Tiger as its the same permit private owners of big cats have in NSW


----------



## crocodile_dan (Sep 20, 2010)

When feeding live fish be cautious of some water treatments used by pet shops, I have used live fish without any problems but have been warned about water treatments. if you are able to source aquaculture fish such as those for stocking dams then that is what I would opt for. I know some institutions in Australia provide 5-10cm barramundi and various other natives for their crocodiles. otherwise by a quantity of fish and house them in a tub with air pump and filter until feed out. I would try him on 3-5cm yabbies and guppies initially.


----------



## persona (Sep 20, 2010)

Is it possible to test for and treat internal parasites if present?
I imagine stress would increase the effect of parasite load and weaken its ability to cope?


----------



## crocodile_dan (Sep 20, 2010)

transmissible diseases are usually present in most systems, crocodiles have salmonellae naturally occurring in their intestine and amongst other bacteria they are generally unable to affect an individual until the host becomes stressed which can be the precipitating factor to septicemia. Crocodiles are affected by internal parasites, bacteria and fungal diseases and the most basic method of observing any health issue is by the animals activity level, appetite and some conditions can be seen visually as lesions or discoloration. fecal smears on a slide may be able to identify some intestinal parasites, if you take a sample to a university biology department they may be able to include it as a sample for graduate education otherwise veterinary consultation would be required.

I have experienced chronic stress dermatitis in two crocodiles one was fatal the other has received treatment for nearly two and a half years and is making a very slow unsteady recovery. Crocodiles are generally quite adept at protecting against disease (I have seen crocodiles kept in filth that were still relatively healthy) once a illness is present and noticeable it is generally an uphill battle at best.


----------



## Kruger88 (Sep 30, 2010)

It is with great sadness that I inform you that my little Croc has sadly died, He wasn't very well this morning and was taken to the vets, after extensive and exhaustive effort by the vets the little guy gave up his fight for life and died around 4pm. I would personally like to thank you all for your assistance and have now decided to write (with some expert help) a husbandry manual for looking after neonate and juvenile crocodiles in captivity so that others in the field are able to quickly and effectively manage baby Croc's. My special thanks to Crocodile Dan for his assistance.


----------



## mis-devious (Sep 30, 2010)

oh no  horrible. you really did your best! dont feel down


----------



## Andrais (Oct 1, 2010)

Thats really sad, i actually cried at the computer hearing your story, you tried so hard! hope that this one incident didnt put you off crocs for ever, you really do have a amazing window of opertunity to keep one


----------



## Kruger88 (Oct 4, 2010)

thanks for your kind words, i am sorry for not replying sooner i had a funeral to attend to. It is rather upsetting to have an animal i have cared for with such interest die suddenly however i had a suspicion that it was due soon. I have not given up on baby crocs just yet and hope in the future to obtain another little blighter, for now though i have many other animals to care for that deserve some extra attention as spring is now here.


----------

