# Possible inclusion body diseae (ibd) outbreak



## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

As most of you know i purchased a snake that died recently the autopsy showed it was worms that killed it officially however i now believe the snake may have also had IBD.

Is it possible the animal that died had both? Is it possible the vet may have missed the IBD signs whilst completing the autopsy?

The reason i ask is last week i observed one of my pythons not breathing as it should. (this animal was housed in the same room different enclosure) as the animal that died.

I took it to the vet and it was prescribed baytril injections however it is now showing signs of a neurological problem, Including twisting its upper neck around in a spasm like motion with its mouth open.

Its breathing is not getting any better and its now not eating it also is showing signs of mouth rot.

Last night i observed another python different species again in a different enclosure and completely different room breathing with the same noises as the above mentioned one.

I have moved the sick animals out of the house to the garage however i feel that it may be to late. 

I am about 99% sure that this is not a simple respiratory condition or illness based on the spasms and mouth rot as well as the fact the animal is not behaving normal.

I have been busy today moving pythons in and out of the house with the best quarantine procedures you can do. All my animals are now all over the place i have moved some to other locations completely away from my house. They have been take to houses where no snakes live.

Whether its to late we will have to wait and see.

I now need to decide whether to start euthanising the sick animals. And having autopsies performed.

If it turns out to be IBD i will be seeking legal advice and will be looiking to pursue this seller for the cost of my entire collection or whatever ends up having to be euthanised. And all medical costs.

In the meantime i suggest anyone considering buying in Melbourne from this seller be very carefull.

Before i proceed i wanted to get feedback from you all.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

As the signs and symptoms usually start within 30 days of infection with this disease it seems most probable that the purchased animal that died had this disease and it has been spread airborne.


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## bubbaloush (Dec 8, 2008)

Mate thats some hard luck if you do have it and hopefully it hasn't infected your entire collection best of luck mate


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## BROWNS (Dec 8, 2008)

Sounds more like OPMV to me and if it came into your collection with the animal you mentioned from the Vic breeder you must have cross contaminated somehow for other animals to be showing signs of illness.I wouldn't wait but would rather take in one of the more seriously affected animals showing the worst symptoms and have it euthanised and tested,even then you won't get a 100% positive result either way but you will have a good idea and as I said having been through this myself it sounds like the dreaded OPMV to me which is running riot throughout the hobby moreso than many ppl think.

Be very careful and keep strict quarantine and cross contamination procedures at their best and see how things go,although it doesn't sound good I hope you don't lose everything and have to go through what many others including myself have.Regarding the seller unless you have 100% proof it came via them it may be hard to establish a case but good luck as anyone selling wc animals possibly sick with disease and knowing about it should be shot imo!!!!I say wc as I recall the animal had worms badly which doesn't often happen at all with captive bred animals...all the best and keep us all updated please!


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## BROWNS (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm not sure f IBD or OPMV are air born diseases and think the jury is still out on OPMV anyway,it's a strange disease with a huge varying amount of symptoms from twisting etc as you described and much more right down to nothing having animals that seem fine just drop dead overnight with no prior warning symptoms.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

BROWNS said:


> I'm not sure f IBD or OPMV are air born diseases and think the jury is still out on OPMV anyway,it's a strange disease with a huge varying amount of symptoms from twisting etc as you described and much more right down to nothing having animals that seem fine just drop dead overnight with no prior warning symptoms.


 
Yes there are people who believe its air born and others who disagree.

I personally think if it turns out to be either of these im leaning towards it being air born how else could it have spread from a closed room to another?

We will wait and see.

I dont know whether to finish of 20 days of antibiotic injections on the first or just euthanise it this week.

I think regardless of what disease it is its clear where it came from.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

BROWNS said:


> I'm not sure f IBD or OPMV are air born diseases and think the jury is still out on OPMV anyway,it's a strange disease with a huge varying amount of symptoms from twisting etc as you described and much more right down to nothing having animals that seem fine just drop dead overnight with no prior warning symptoms.


 
The purchased animal that died appeared healthy however it just dropped down dead but when i found it in the enclosure it was contorted and half upside down.


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## Aslan (Dec 8, 2008)

*horsesrule* - I am sympathetic for your situation, and exploring legal action should the situation be the worst case possible is definately a possibility...

...in saying that, your own Vet has determined the cause of death to be worms, not IBD. I think that is a hurdle you would fail to overcome should the matter proceed to a civil trial...

...good luck, and I hope all works out...


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## aussie.snakes (Dec 8, 2008)

Don't know if you would be successful claiming damages if it can be shown that you did not quarrintine.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

At this stage im more worried about finding out what is going on and what disease i am dealing with.

I am going to wait till the vet gets back from holidays and ask him about the original autopsy performed. 

I am also consulting with a second vet now to get a second oppinion.

Either way apart from getting feedback from others who have been a simmilar sitaution, this also can be used as a warning thread because if it can happen to me it can happen to anyone.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 8, 2008)

hey HR, a breeder told me the other day that if you buy reptiles, one from here, one from there, it's like playing russian roulette, I now understand what he means :shock: bad luck mate I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you. Can the vet test any of the results from the original python or is it to late? disinfect all your cages, hands and clothes, wear throw away rubber gloves when you have to handle them, it all helps


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## ajwill (Dec 8, 2008)

I feel for you - it is a terrible situation.
Did you quarantine, horserule? If so, for how long?


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

Yes i quaranteeded i did everything by the book. 

The animal that i believe brought whatever it is in was purchased on the 18/10/08 it died on the 30/10/08 so its been just over a month.

This is why i am so concerned about it being IBD.

It usually starts affecting animals after 30 days.

Irrespective of what happens we have made the decision now not to continue with pythons. 

After what dies or is euthanised if there is any left we will keep them but that will be it.

Before this happened we were looking at cutting back our collection and concentrating more on other reptiles but now enough is enough.

As i said i have kept reptiles for over 20 years and never had any deaths that were not old age until i bought that python a month or so ago.

Its been a curse.


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## Dave (Dec 8, 2008)

I feel sorry for you  
Luckily I've found a breeder thats near me that has all the pythons I want and know his collection is disease free..


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## MoreliaMatt (Dec 8, 2008)

if it is ibd or opmv, whats to say that it hasnt been lying dormant in one of your other snakes and has been passed on from them?

not backing up the seller that sold u the ones with worms at all.....

just wanting to think of all possible avenues?


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## ajwill (Dec 8, 2008)

It's just so terrible - I had never heard of either of these diseases and just googled them. I hope the rest of your collection is okay.


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## aussie.snakes (Dec 8, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Yes i quaranteeded i did everything by the book.
> 
> The animal that i believe brought whatever it is in was purchased on the 18/10/08 it died on the 30/10/08 so its been just over a month.
> 
> ...


 

:| but you said you kept them in the same room. That isn't quarantee by the books....


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

I mean its possible but not likely 

The snake that died after purchase was housed in a room with the snakes thats the most sick however the second snake that is sick has been living in a completely different sealed room. 

The door is kept shut 24 hours a day except when we enter.

The probability that its airborne is high.

The probability it came from the snake that died is high.

The other possibility and probability is it came from the replacement snake that turned out to be sick also and was returned to the seller.

On the balance of probabilities it was one of the 2 snakes that entered my care after coming from the seller.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

aussie.snakes said:


> :| but you said you kept them in the same room. That isn't quarantee by the books....


 

Correct, i only have space for 1 quarantine room.

Anyway if it turns out to be IBD it wont matter as its most likely transmitted airborne.

The fact 1 of the pythons is showing signs points this way as it was down a different end to the house in a closed room.

Time will tell.


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## JasonL (Dec 8, 2008)

A python in pain or over or under heated will act in a similar way to one with a neuro problem.. not saying this is the case with your snake, just be careful jumping to conclusions before autopsy results come back or other snakes in your collection start showing signs.


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## Australis (Dec 8, 2008)

Have you had any mite problems recently (last 12months)..?

The python sharing the quarantine area sounds like just as much a
suspect (if not more so) than animal that died of worms.
Assuming you purchased it with in the last few months.. etc..


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## the.badger (Dec 8, 2008)

That's really crappy news Horsesrule 

Apparently OPMV can lie dormant for up to 18 months before presenting, so if it is OPMV you may have to look at all the snakes that have come into and left your collection in that time.


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## amazonian (Dec 8, 2008)

Lots of probablies. possiblies, I thinks & general assumptions in your post.
It may or may not be from the recently purchased animals, and it may or may not be IBD. You should of got a definite answer before posting the thread IMO.

I'd of thought that IBD or OPMV would be the first things any decent Herp Vet that performed an autopsy would look for.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

Australis said:


> Have you had any mite problems recently (last 12months)..?
> 
> The python sharing the quarantine area sounds like just as much a
> suspect (if not more so) than animal that died of worms.
> Assuming you purchased it with in the last few months.. etc..


 

No mites i always spray cages after i clean them as a precaution.

The python in the quarantine area was only there as i was short on 1 enclosure space.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

the.badger said:


> That's really crappy news Horsesrule
> 
> Apparently OPMV can lie dormant for up to 18 months before presenting, so if it is OPMV you may have to look at all the snakes that have come into and left your collection in that time.


 

None have left my colletion i dont usually sell.

So thats a bonus and i had planned to sell a couple but i have since stopped the sale of them till i get to the bottom of this.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

amazonian said:


> Lots of probablies. possiblies, I thinks & general assumptions in your post.
> It may or may not be from the recently purchased animals, and it may or may not be IBD. You should of got a definite answer before posting the thread IMO.
> 
> I'd of thought that IBD or OPMV would be the first things any decent Herp Vet that performed an autopsy would look for.


 

Appearantly though IBD isnt easy to determine in autopsy.

Checked the others today no one else is sick so its possible i got this in time but who knows.

If it is airborne as they suspect then anything is possible.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 8, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I dont know whether to finish of 20 days of antibiotic injections on the first or just euthanise it this week.


 
I'd take the advise of the vet, you may put it down and turn out to be something else. 
You said your waiting for your vet to get back from holidays? is the vet your using now a reptile vet?


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## melgalea (Dec 8, 2008)

this is the reason why i only buy from trusted people. people who i have seen there collection and have a huge amount of respect and trust for them. i have found one person now who i am very happy with, and what ever i buy will pretty much only come from him. good luck with it all.


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## gozz (Dec 8, 2008)

I have seen this in a freinds collection recently, very nasty, he thought he was on top of it. But 12 months later it has started again. Sorry this is happenning to you. This isnt an isolated case its out there


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## rockman (Dec 8, 2008)

zoocam said:


> this is the reason why i only buy from trusted people. people who i have seen there collection and have a huge amount of respect and trust for them. i have found one person now who i am very happy with, and what ever i buy will pretty much only come from him. good luck with it all.



Who's trusted now ? .
If you dont know the complete history of their herp collection / what they have had in and out of their collection / what they have swapped , breeding loans / buying herps / other people handling their herps , how do you trust them 100% ? . 

Something to think about eh ? . 
Good luck with it all . 

Cheers


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 8, 2008)

rockman said:


> Who's trusted now ? .
> If you dont know the complete history of their herp collection / what they have had in and out of their collection / what they have swapped , breeding loans / buying herps / other people handling their herps , how do you trust them 100% ? .
> 
> Something to think about eh ? .
> ...



It is all about risk minimisation. Several of the big breeders that I am in regular contact with that have established lines rarely introduce new snakes into their main collection. If they do, they employ thorough (but not perfect) quarantine methods to minimise the risk of introduce contaminated snakes. Luckily enough there are people like Danny Brown who openly admit that they have diseased animals and do the correct thing by euthanising the whole lot, rather than flogging them off on the sly.


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## melgalea (Dec 8, 2008)

rockman said:


> Who's trusted now ? .
> If you dont know the complete history of their herp collection / what they have had in and out of their collection / what they have swapped , breeding loans / buying herps / other people handling their herps , how do you trust them 100% ? .
> 
> Something to think about eh ? .
> ...




the fact that i do know quite a lot about what goes in and out and the fact that the person i trust has a collection worth quite a lot of money is the reason. and there safety practises on quarantine. i have seen to many cases of people loosing there snakes to these diseases. in 7 years i havnt had to take a reptile to the vets yet. fingers crossed i wont ever have too either.


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## melgalea (Dec 8, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> It is all about risk minimisation. Several of the big breeders that I am in regular contact with that have established lines rarely introduce new snakes into their main collection. If they do, they employ thorough (but not perfect) quarantine methods to minimise the risk of introduce contaminated snakes. Luckily enough there are people like Danny Brown who openly admit that they have diseased animals and do the correct thing by euthanising the whole lot, rather than flogging them off on the sly.



couldnt have said it better my self jonno. 
mel


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## thesilverbeast (Dec 8, 2008)

This seller is a trusted well known seller anyway. 

Before this i would have had huge amounts of confidence buying from them.


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 8, 2008)

G'day silverbeast,

I think you will find that a lot of people who have been in the game for more than a couple of years won't touch any animals from him. He himself may not be dodgy, but unfortunately when you are buying and selling as many animals as they are, things slip through the cracks quite often. 

When buying snakes, the most important thing is WHO you buy it from, not the snake itself.


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## melgalea (Dec 8, 2008)

i have had a couple of crappy experiences buying interstate. nothing bad, just little things that have ticked me off with a few sellers interstate that make me not go back to them. and i have never ever brought from the said seller. 

reptile sellers are like tatooists, once u find a good one, u hold on to them for dear life until ur collection has finished growing.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

tenacres1100 said:


> I'd take the advise of the vet, you may put it down and turn out to be something else.
> You said your waiting for your vet to get back from holidays? is the vet your using now a reptile vet?


 

Im now using 2 vets both specialise in reptiles.

The one who performed the original autopsy is on leave. But i am getting the sick animal treated by another vet at the moment.


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## horsesrule (Dec 8, 2008)

I think these 2 diseases need to be publicised more.

Im sure many people out there with snakes have no idea about either of the 2 diseases.

As i have said i get through this with any of them left untouched ill keep them but thats it.


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## Chappy (Dec 9, 2008)

Sorry to hear about this Horsesrule and i hope it all works out...allthough it does not sound to good. 

If the source of the disease can be traced back to the Dodgy seller i say shame him and his shop and i hope no one buys from him ever again. 

Keep us posted as i am sure there a lot of people watching this thread.


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## HerpDoc (Dec 9, 2008)

Hi Horsesrule,

If you want the snake in question euthanased and post-mortemed I can do that for you free of charge. This will include full histopathology. The catch is you will not have access to the body afterwards.

I require bodies of snakes that have died or been suspected of having OPMV so that I can harvest tissues to develop a test for OPMV. I will also be doing some virus culture as well. 

PM me if you're interested.


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## JasonL (Dec 9, 2008)

Well there's a offer!!! HerpDoc, maybe you could make a seperate thread on your offer and the mods could make it sticky untill you have enough snakes....We need as much research into these virus's as possible, we should all go out of our way to help if possible.


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## rockman (Dec 9, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> It is all about risk minimisation. Several of the big breeders that I am in regular contact with that have established lines rarely introduce new snakes into their main collection. If they do, they employ thorough (but not perfect) quarantine methods to minimise the risk of introduce contaminated snakes. Luckily enough there are people like Danny Brown who openly admit that they have diseased animals and do the correct thing by euthanising the whole lot, rather than flogging them off on the sly.



Jonno , 
Thanks for pointing out risk minimisation . 
Unfortunatly we have a few people out there that do not tell all the truth and because of that the disease will flourish . When people dont tell all the truth , it makes it a bit hard to properly work where the problem started and what animals caused the problem , ie: bringing in new snakes to their collection and forgetting where all the snakes came from ( LOL ) .

Lucky , as you say , we have the likes of Danny .

Cheers Jim


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks for the offer HERPDR

I have messaged you, ill await your reply and take it from there.

Im happy for you to carry out the autopsy and euthanise if need be.


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## bredli_lover (Dec 9, 2008)

Is there any way someone could pm the name of the breeder/seller of the original snake that is suspected to have spread the disease? Theres been a fair bit talked about it and it sounds like a well known breeder/ seller....

(sorry if this is against forum rules. delete if is.)


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## =bECS= (Dec 9, 2008)

bredli_lover said:


> Is there any way someone could pm the name of the breeder/seller of the original snake that is suspected to have spread the disease? Theres been a fair bit talked about it and it sounds like a well known breeder/ seller....
> 
> (sorry if this is against forum rules. delete if is.)



im sure the seller of the snake that died is or will be monitoring this thread already 

Hard luck HR, seems like you cant catch a break lately!

edit: as far as legal avenues go, i think you will have a hard time forming a solid case as you have already been compensated twice (thats what you have said on this forum anyways) and your original autopsy pointed to worms as the suspect.

It will be hard to prove that the diesase came from the snake in question (thats if it actually did)
Also, im sure the seller would have kept all you correspondence and mostlikley a copy of the threads on here involving said snakes.

Just something to think about perhaps.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> im sure the seller of the snake that died is or will be monitoring this thread already
> 
> Hard luck HR, seems like you cant catch a break lately!


 


No i cant lol however i now have three different vets working with me to try and figure this out.


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## bredli_lover (Dec 9, 2008)

sorry...didn't mean to offend anyone by asking for the name...


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## =bECS= (Dec 9, 2008)

bredli_lover the seller cant be named however, a bit of research and detective work and it isnt hard to figure out who the seller is.
Its not against forum rules to send the sellers name in a PM though


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 9, 2008)

bredli_lover said:


> sorry...didn't mean to offend anyone by asking for the name...


 
you have only asked what a lot of others have asked


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## serpenttongue (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> No mites i always spray cages after i clean them as a precaution.


 
This statement concerns me. Frequent exposure to mite sprays has caused snakes to display signs of neurological problems.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

serpenttongue said:


> This statement concerns me. Frequent exposure to mite sprays has caused snakes to display signs of neurological problems.


 

I dont mean every time i change the news paper i mean everythime i thouroughly scrub the cage.

Besides i have always done this and never had a problem.

Either way we will soon find out what the hell is going on, i am 99.9% the problems stem from the 2 dodgey snakes that i got. The 1 that died the other i had to return.


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## jack (Dec 9, 2008)

methinks it may be a husbandry issue... 

or an act of god

i hope you discount all alternate possibilities to ibd/opmv before you kill your pets.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Its not a husbandry issue i can assure you.

And its not an act of god its most likely an act of a dodgey seller but we wont know for certain for a while yet.


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## GSXR_Boy (Dec 9, 2008)

Did you worm all the other snakes with a wormer when you found the other had worms? If so what brand and how much?? Just a thought....


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## carpetmuncher (Dec 9, 2008)

hr, this is the only thread that you haven't blamed John Howard.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

carpetmuncher said:


> hr, this is the only thread that you haven't blamed John Howard.


 

Yes, yes it is.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

GSXR_Boy said:


> Did you worm all the other snakes with a wormer when you found the other had worms? If so what brand and how much?? Just a thought....


 

Yes all snakes have been wormed.

I cant read the writing on the bottle but its the standard worm medication for all snakes prescribed by vets.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I dont mean every time i change the news paper i mean everythime i thouroughly scrub the cage.
> 
> Besides i have always done this and never had a problem.
> .



Even still, it's the kind of chemical that should only be used if there is a problem. Saying it works because you've never had a problem is like saying concrete floats cos you've never seen it sink. I know lots of people who've never had a problem with mites ( me included) who've never treated for them. 

Don't mean that as having a go at you, but overuse of a chemical in anyway can have adverse effects if a problem occurs. If one mite survives a treatment, it's stronger against the chemical, times that by 5,6,7 and you;ve got an almost completely resistent mite. 

Again, sorry. I just though I'd stress the point. There are many reasons to not use chemicals where possible. 

Sorry to hear about all this trouble, I hope you and your animals get through it alright.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> Even still, it's the kind of chemical that should only be used if there is a problem. Saying it works because you've never had a problem is like saying concrete floats cos you've never seen it sink. I know lots of people who've never had a problem with mites ( me included) who've never treated for them.
> 
> Don't mean that as having a go at you, but overuse of a chemical in anyway can have adverse effects if a problem occurs. If one mite survives a treatment, it's stronger against the chemical, times that by 5,6,7 and you;ve got an almost completely resistent mite.
> 
> ...


 

You make some good points and i may now rethink my might spraying after this drama is over however i am 100% certain that has nothing to do with whats going on.

And so does the vets that have examined the animals.


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## elapid66 (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I dont mean every time i change the news paper i mean everythime i thouroughly scrub the cage.
> 
> Besides i have always done this and never had a problem.
> 
> Either way we will soon find out what the hell is going on, i am 99.9% the problems stem from the 2 dodgey snakes that i got. The 1 that died the other i had to return.


 how about being 100%sure before you bad mouth people


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## Chappy (Dec 9, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> how about being 100%sure before you bad mouth people



I didnt think it would take long!! Here come the Ballarat brigade to the defense 

Take a look at the History of what has happened to her and i dont think you need to be Einstein to work out what has happened.


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## ambah (Dec 9, 2008)

haha, ballarat brigade


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## BenReyn (Dec 9, 2008)

Oh no. That sounds horrible. If I were you, get the animals' that you believe don't have a quality life anymore, and get them autopsied, then take your next step..


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## scout (Dec 9, 2008)

I can understand how upsetting it is for you. I had an encounter this year where i purchased a snake, that showed signs of IBD pretty soon after purchase. I was lucky the guy took the snake back(only to my dismay to re sell it). Im a nurse so had taken precautions with quarenteen. I had been stung quite a few years ago and had got out of the hobby for that reason until the bug got me again, its heart renching getting all your hard work put down. Even though I have strict quarenteen measures i will not be selling my snakes on for the next few years(even though they are over the danger period..thank god) just to make sure im not passing it on to any one else, its a shame other people do not think the same. good luck with any legal proceding if it comes to that, I sought legal advice in case of the worst, but was told it was more or less hopeless, im hoping no more of your snakes come down with it, good luck and best wishes


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> how about being 100%sure before you bad mouth people


 

No ones been bad mouthed

All that has been said are the facts.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Chappy said:


> I didnt think it would take long!! Here come the Ballarat brigade to the defense
> 
> Take a look at the History of what has happened to her and i dont think you need to be Einstein to work out what has happened.


 

Yep there here.

No suprise though, it seems apperantly some can do no wrong even though its been proven 100% they sold sick animals and broke the law.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Chappy said:


> I didnt think it would take long!! Here come the Ballarat brigade to the defense
> 
> Take a look at the History of what has happened to her and i dont think you need to be Einstein to work out what has happened.


 

Yep and im not the only one from what i have been told.


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## Australis (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Yep there here.
> 
> No suprise though, it seems apperantly some can do no wrong even though its been proven 100% they sold sick animals and broke the law.



But its not 100% proven that "they" are the source of the suspected IBD.

Im in no way defending this person, not for a second.. but i think your
jumping the gun here, firstly you have no proof of IBD, then even if
proven to be IBD or even OPMV, you cant exactly prove the worm
riddled snakes were the vectors..


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Australis said:


> But its not 100% proven that "they" are the source of the suspected IBD.
> 
> Im in no way defending this person, not for a second.. but i think your
> jumping the gun here, firstly you have no proof of IBD, then even if
> ...


 

You could argue that there is no 100% proof that man landed on the moon. But very few argue or believe we didnt.

The balance of probabilities is that this is whats happened. 

In 20 years of keeping reptiles i have never had this happen.

The balance of probabilities is really what needs to be looked at.

Seller sold 1 snake that died. 
Seller replaced snake with another that then ended up being sick and wouldnt eat.
Second snake was returned to seller.

Now my collection is sick

The mathematical probabilities that its not linked to these sick animals is small i personally feel tiny.


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## Dan19 (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> You could argue that there is no 100% proof that man landed on the moon. But very few argue or believe we didnt.
> 
> The balance of probabilities is that this is whats happened.
> 
> ...


 
Which mathematical equation did you use to come to this opinion?


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> Which mathematical equation did you use to come to this opinion?


 

Common sense, why are you taking the sellers side?


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## Chappy (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Yep and im not the only one from what i have been told.



Me too i have been speaking to numerous people about this and everyone has said they wont touch his stock. These are respected people in the industry to.

Surely not everyone is wrong...... Wheres theres smoke theres fire


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## flinders (Dec 9, 2008)

for someone who has been keeping reptiles for 20yrs you don't seem to know to much about them.


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## Dan19 (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Common sense, why are you taking the sellers side?


 
So quick to judge. Im not taking anyones side though it is strange to blame the seller when these diseases can take quite a while to show themselves. Yes i think that he was in the wrong with the worms though i am not convinced so far with you saying it was his fault with the so called "IBD" epidemic and that all your snakes now have it and you have not got any evidence to show that it is IBD nor that the snake the seller gave you had it.


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## Chappy (Dec 9, 2008)

Hopefully no one gets burnt again by this seller.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

flinders said:


> for someone who has been keeping reptiles for 20yrs you don't seem to know to much about them.


 

Mmm another member of the Ballarat brigade.


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## rockman (Dec 9, 2008)

scout said:


> I can understand how upsetting it is for you. I had an encounter this year where i purchased a snake, that showed signs of IBD pretty soon after purchase. I was lucky the guy took the snake back(only to my dismay to re sell it). Im a nurse so had taken precautions with quarenteen. I had been stung quite a few years ago and had got out of the hobby for that reason until the bug got me again, its heart renching getting all your hard work put down. Even though I have strict quarenteen measures i will not be selling my snakes on for the next few years(even though they are over the danger period..thank god) just to make sure im not passing it on to any one else, its a shame other people do not think the same. good luck with any legal proceding if it comes to that, I sought legal advice in case of the worst, but was told it was more or less hopeless, im hoping no more of your snakes come down with it, good luck and best wishes



Hi , what do you class as the " danger period 'that you are over " ? 
Not having a dig , just curious .
Would you consider 4-5 years being out of danger ? .

Cheers


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> So quick to judge. Im not taking anyones side though it is strange to blame the seller when these diseases can take quite a while to show themselves. Yes i think that he was in the wrong with the worms though i am not convinced so far with you saying it was his fault with the so called "IBD" epidemic and that all your snakes now have it and you have not got any evidence to show that it is IBD nor that the snake the seller gave you had it.


 

So this is just coincidence?


Well we will see, it appears both snakes have got worse with there condition.

Despite anti biotics.


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## Earthling (Dec 9, 2008)

Regarding OPMV tests. 
If you want to rule that out....or in....talk to a good herp vet and you can get OPMV tested in USA. It will cost you some coin (around $300 mark a vet told me once), but its guaranted 100% accurate, not like these second class tests here in Oz.
Take your Snake into the vets and they will cut and send the appropriate body parts.
Goodluck.


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## Dan19 (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> So this is just coincidence?
> 
> 
> Well we will see, it appears both snakes have got worse with there condition.
> ...


 
It could be just that. Have you introduced any new snakes to your collection in the past year or so? 
And it seems that whoever does not agree with you is wrong. I think you should open your mind a little and accept other peoples opinions before you are fully certain about yours.


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## flinders (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Mmm another member of the Ballarat brigade.



no i don't think so. just pointing out the obvious.why not get proof of whats happening and then take the matter further.you seem to be your own worst enemy.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Earthling said:


> Regarding OPMV tests.
> If you want to rule that out....or in....talk to a good herp vet and you can get OPMV tested in USA. It will cost you some coin (around $300 mark a vet told me once), but its guaranted 100% accurate, not like these second class tests here in Oz.
> Take your Snake into the vets and they will cut and send the appropriate body parts.
> Goodluck.


 

I will be speaking to the vet who assessed the snake last week that was ill on Thursday.

I have to wait to the vet who performed the autopsy gets back from holidays next week.

And im waiting to hear back from DR HERP

As i said 3 independant reptile vets will now be getting to the bottom of this.

It may take a few weeks but it will be figured out.

If it turns out not be either of the 2 likely causes i will happily post this in the forum.

However i am very much doubt this will be the case.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> It could be just that. Have you introduced any new snakes to your collection in the past year or so?
> And it seems that whoever does not agree with you is wrong. I think you should open your mind a little and accept other peoples opinions before you are fully certain about yours.


 

My mind is open and i am looking at all possibilities.

Why else would i now be planning to consult with 3 reptile vets?

I have not said anywhere in this thread i am 100% i have said on the balance of probabilities i am correct. I stand by this and so does at least 1 vet i seen last week.


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## rockman (Dec 9, 2008)

Earthling said:


> Regarding OPMV tests.
> If you want to rule that out....or in....talk to a good herp vet and you can get OPMV tested in USA. It will cost you some coin (around $300 mark a vet told me once), but its guaranted 100% accurate, not like these second class tests here in Oz.
> Take your Snake into the vets and they will cut and send the appropriate body parts.
> Goodluck.



You cant get it tested in the States . 
Would probably cost a lot more then $300 , nearly cost that over here ! . 

Cheers


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## Dan19 (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> My mind is open and i am looking at all possibilities.
> 
> Why else would i now be planning to consult with 3 reptile vets?
> 
> I have not said anywhere in this thread i am 100% i have said on the balance of probabilities i am correct. I stand by this and so does at least 1 vet i seen last week.


 
Well good luck with that then.
My question again, have you bought any introduce any new reptiles into your house in the past year or so?


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## elapid66 (Dec 9, 2008)

pm coming your way horse


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> Well good luck with that then.
> My question again, have you bought any introduce any new reptiles into your house in the past year or so?


 

Yes i have all these animals have been kept seperate and are actually healthy,

So far touchwood.


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## elapid66 (Dec 9, 2008)

*ha ha ha*

ba haha hahahehe:lol:


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> pm coming your way horse


 

Glad to see you know how to send insulting messages

elapid66





*Regular Member*
Join Date: Sep-07
Location: ballarat vic
Age/Gender: 42




Posts: 19 



*caching* 
you are a nob cheers paul :lol:


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## Australis (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Yes i have all these animals have been kept seperate and are actually healthy,
> 
> So far touchwood.



But what about the animal you said first showed signs, an animal that was still in Q/T?


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## Ishah (Dec 9, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how the sick snake you returned ended up? Is there any way of knowing what the outcome with it was? As if it was this snake that caused/passed on the symptoms to the rest of your collection, then it may have already died, or passed it on to the sellers stock? I think knowing the outcome/(health) status of the sick returned snake would back up your case the HR, well it could help make or break your legal case and bring some light to the situation if you know what I'm trying to say...(not the greatest at explaining what I mean, sorry)


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## gozz (Dec 9, 2008)

Well this needs to and should go to court to be sorted out ,evidance needs to be collected. All buyers that on sell should be held responisble and should hold all animals for a maximin time period. Some people dont care about others and are only in this hobby for money. But Remember innocent untiln proven guilty


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## andyh (Dec 9, 2008)

whether it be IBD, OPMV or XYZ remains to be seen, I can definately see your point with the balance of probabilities I would probably come to the same conclusion (that the new ones are to blame) as would virtually everyone on here if they were in the same situation. I sincerely hope it doesnt turn out to be one of the two evils for the sake of both you and your animals.

I also think this thread is turning more into an argument and a finger pointing excersise rather than intelligent discussion as demonstrated in thread #89 -- very mature!!


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

Ishah said:


> Just out of curiosity, I wonder how the sick snake you returned ended up? Is there any way of knowing what the outcome with it was? As if it was this snake that caused/passed on the symptoms to the rest of your collection, then it may have already died, or passed it on to the sellers stock? I think knowing the outcome/(health) status of the sick returned snake would back up your case the HR, well it could help make or break your legal case and bring some light to the situation if you know what I'm trying to say...(not the greatest at explaining what I mean, sorry)


 

With the amount of stock the seller has there is no way of finding out what happened to it.

I am sure now the seller is aware of this thread its not even in his stock.

But when it was returned it was placed on the counter and taken out within the shop where there are other snakes around. I was there for about half an hour and the animal was in and out the bag the whole time.

So for argument sake (hypothetically) lets say this animal has one of the 2 diseases suspected as it can be transmitted airborne there is a possiblilty that his entire stock is now at risk.


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## Vixen (Dec 9, 2008)

Horserule these diseases can lie dormant for years for all you know one of your snakes might have been infected long before you got sold the worm infested snake. Not sure where you got the ' they will show signs within 30 days ' because thats a load of bullshit.

Your quarantine didn't seem very good at all, and if it was the case that one of your snakes had a virus long before this, I doubt you would have been sterilising and being super careful between snakes, which is a possibility of why the others are now showing signs.

Don't jump the gun on this and automatically blame the seller, and get the proper tests done. Coincidences do happen.. don't blame someone else for what might have been your problem all along.


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## Chappy (Dec 9, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> G'day silverbeast,
> 
> I think you will find that a lot of people who have been in the game for more than a couple of years won't touch any animals from him. He himself may not be dodgy, but unfortunately when you are buying and selling as many animals as they are, things slip through the cracks quite often.
> 
> When buying snakes, the most important thing is WHO you buy it from, not the snake itself.



I have heard the same stories Jonno.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 9, 2008)

While I'd never touch the seller's stock, there is no way you could mount a successful legal case and prove anything came from his animals. Barely anything is even known about the disease.


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## gozz (Dec 9, 2008)

what we need is ideas on how to combat these nasty vireses and beat it


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## Ishah (Dec 9, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> While I'd never touch the seller's stock, there is no way you could mount a successful legal case and prove anything came from his animals. Barely anything is even known about the disease.


 
I agree, and also, without knowing the outcome of the returned snake there is really no way (that I can see) of you proving it came from his stock either, hence the reason I asked if there was a way of finding out what happened with it...That IMO would have been your best bet/hope at a "strong, winnable" case, and as you said HR, you don't have a way of knowing the outcome of the returned snake, so I doubt you will get far with the case you are building now :? Goodluck


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

VixenBabe said:


> Horserule these diseases can lie dormant for years for all you know one of your snakes might have been infected long before you got sold the worm infested snake. Not sure where you got the ' they will show signs within 30 days ' because thats a load of bullshit.
> 
> Your quarantine didn't seem very good at all, and if it was the case that one of your snakes had a virus long before this, I doubt you would have been sterilising and being super careful between snakes, which is a possibility of why the others are now showing signs.
> 
> Don't jump the gun on this and automatically blame the seller, and get the proper tests done. Coincidences do happen.. don't blame someone else for what might have been your problem all along.


 
Ok look i started this thread to get feedback from people who know a bit about these diseases and have kept herps for a while.

Now i dont want to sound like im being rude yeah Vixen but i was keeping snakes before you were born. 

“Python keepers have had a much easier time [than boa keepers] with IBD, basically because it appears to affect only the brain and death comes more quickly. The advantage is that the snake may show symptoms in *weeks* after exposure, (star-gazing, poor motor control, loss of appetite, coiling or constricting uncontrollably when they are stimulated) and so far as is known, pythons do not live longer than three months after infection. Python keepers are usually able to nip the problem in the bud very quickly.”

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bush/append21.html

As for my quarantine it was fine, you could argue one of the snakes now affected shouldnt have been in the quarantine room i would agree however thats just 1 that doesnt explain the other being sick. 

Also considering the other one now sick is fed on different days, cleaned on different days, housed in a completely different room in which the door is kept shut.


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## slacker (Dec 9, 2008)

Ishah said:


> I agree, and also, without knowing the outcome of the returned snake there is really no way (that I can see) of you proving it came from his stock either, hence the reason I asked if there was a way of finding out what happened with it...That IMO would have been your best bet/hope at a "strong, winnable" case, and as you said HR, you don't have a way of knowing the outcome of the returned snake, so I doubt you will get far with the case you are building now :? Goodluck



Even if HR did know of any ongoing health issues relating to the returned animal, HR would have fun trying to prove that the returned animal infected her collection and not the other way around.


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## slacker (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> As for my quarantine it was fine, you could argue one of the snakes now affected shouldnt have been in the quarantine room i would agree however thats just 1 that doesnt explain the other being sick.
> 
> Also considering the other one now sick is fed on different days, cleaned on different days, housed in a completely different room in which the door is kept shut.



I'm a bit confused. If the new addition was quarantined, how did this other animal become symptomatic if it wasn't pre-existing?


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## Vixen (Dec 9, 2008)

Horserule thats fair enough if its IBD but who is saying its not OPMV. Most of same signs and symptoms, yet you think you can differentiate between the two?

I now agree with Flinders, for someone who has apparantly keeping reptiles for so long you do not seem to know much, and are arrogant on top of that. If you were any bit saavy with reptile diseases you would have an open mind as nothing is really proven about transmission of the disease, and you would realise that what I said makes perfect sense instead of just retorting you basically know more than me.. hm.

I don't really care if you have been keeping snakes before I was born, I have done my fair share of research thank you. I will and do respect herp veterans as of course they are going to know more than me, noone stops learning anyway. But I do not respect arrogant persons such as yourself who think they are better than everyone, to me you are no better than a 5yr old.


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## gozz (Dec 9, 2008)

VixenBabe said:


> Horserule thats fair enough if its IBD but who is saying its not OPMV. Most of same signs and symptoms, yet you think you can differentiate between the two?
> 
> I now agree with Flinders, for someone who has apparantly keeping reptiles for so long you do not seem to know much, and are arrogant on top of that.


 settle if it was my collection i would be in jail right now


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## =bECS= (Dec 9, 2008)

i havent read the whole thread since this afternoon, however, recently you started a thread saying a vet you visit stated that 50% of suspected RI cases he sees end up being IBD.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...sion-body-disease-in-australian-pythons-97718

Now if thats true, wouldnt it be possible that you have carried the suspected virus home from the vet, and the time period you state would have coincided with your visit to them with the original snake wouldnt it?

Its just a little strange that after you started that thread, now you have started one saying your snakes have IBD as well.......


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

slacker said:


> I'm a bit confused. If the new addition was quarantined, how did this other animal become symptomatic if it wasn't pre-existing?


 

As this virus is most likely airborne that is the only way it could have occured.

In reality if it turns out im correct, unless you have a nuclear style bunker that filters all your air coming out of your quarintine room no quarantine measure will be good enough.

Thats whats scary about this.


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## Ishah (Dec 9, 2008)

slacker said:


> Even if HR did know of any ongoing health issues relating to the returned animal, HR would have fun trying to prove that the returned animal infected her collection and not the other way around.


 

True, very true, because the worm infestation that the new animal(s) already had, could have made them more susceptible to a "dormant" disease as their immune system would have been already tiring from the worms and bacterial infections due to the perforation of the bowel or whatever it was etc etc... And if the "dormant" disease was "awakened" by the more susceptible animals, it could have easily of been passed back to the rest of the collection through the other animal that was housed in the same room and by human contact/cross contamination by forgetting to wash hands, change clothes and showering between the Q/T animals and the rest of the collection... It only takes one tiney little slip-up....

I can see where you are coming from...haha blows my theory out of the water then! I didnt think of that... These are all just my random thoughts as to what could have happened etc... not insinuating anything in anyway... Given the new spin on what I thought your best hope would have been, I fail to see how a valid case can become of it HR, I think you are fighting a losing battle if you do take it to court, all you can really hope to get from it is peace of mind that it is or isnt one or both of these dreaded diseases once the vets are done...best of luck tho. 

Haha lucky you have us helping you poke any holes in it that you may not have seen otherwise, helping you choose other avenues/courses of action


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## Australis (Dec 9, 2008)

I didn't think it was considered "most likely" airborne, unless some profound 
new understanding has come about recently, don't rule out human error so soon.

Maybe ease back on the speculations and guess work, and hold off until your
able to consult with a VET, or have tests run a deceased python at least to get some 
understanding on the situation.

You seem hell bent on your speculations.


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## =bECS= (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> As this virus is most likely airborne that is the only way it could have occured.
> 
> In reality if it turns out im correct, unless you have a nuclear style bunker that filters all your air coming out of your quarintine room no quarantine measure will be good enough.
> 
> Thats whats scary about this.



I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room) 
However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.

Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.


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## rockman (Dec 9, 2008)

It is all about risk minimisation. Several of the big breeders that I am in regular contact with that have established lines rarely introduce new snakes into their main collection. If they do, they employ thorough (but not perfect) quarantine methods to minimise the risk of introduce contaminated snakes. Luckily enough there are people like Danny Brown who openly admit that they have diseased animals and do the correct thing by euthanising the whole lot, rather than flogging them off on the sly. 


“Python keepers have had a much easier time [than boa keepers] with IBD, basically because it appears to affect only the brain and death comes more quickly. The advantage is that the snake may show symptoms in weeks after exposure, (star-gazing, poor motor control, loss of appetite, coiling or constricting uncontrollably when they are stimulated) and so far as is known, pythons do not live longer than three months after infection. Python keepers are usually able to nip the problem in the bud very quickly.”

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bush/append21.html

That makes for an interesting read . 
So if someone had a clean collection for , lets say 4-5 years , would they be considered a clean collection ? . 

Jonno , you seem to be the expert in ' risk minimisation ' ..........................what do you think ? . I would love to hear expert opinion on this sensitive matter .


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

VixenBabe said:


> Horserule thats fair enough if its IBD but who is saying its not OPMV. Most of same signs and symptoms, yet you think you can differentiate between the two?
> 
> I now agree with Flinders, for someone who has apparantly keeping reptiles for so long you do not seem to know much, and are arrogant on top of that. If you were any bit saavy with reptile diseases you would have an open mind as nothing is really proven about transmission of the disease, and you would realise that what I said makes perfect sense instead of just retorting you basically know more than me.. hm.
> 
> I don't really care if you have been keeping snakes before I was born, I have done my fair share of research thank you. I will and do respect herp veterans as of course they are going to know more than me, noone stops learning anyway. But I do not respect arrogant persons such as yourself who think they are better than everyone, to me you are no better than a 5yr old.


 
Im sure at 18 you know everything, thats clearly proved with this "to me you are no better than a 5yr old."


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## rockman (Dec 9, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room)
> However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.
> 
> Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.



Bec's , 
What if those people with substantial collections dont quarantine properly , ie: put all new arrivals into the same 6 x 6 mtr room , what happens then ? , and what if they buy / recieve in numbers of new arrivals , and put them all into the same room , it would be like " lucky dip " , what do you think ? . 

Cheers


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## Ishah (Dec 9, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room)
> However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.
> 
> Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.


 

Haha you state this SO much better than how I stated it (well TRIED anyways :lol: I think I have some form of dyslexia!:lol... And I was thinking too, how can you be SO sure, HR, that it IS infact airborne? Or are you just assuming that it is as you cannot think of any other way it could have got to the other animals? Did you quarantine like becs said? i.e. shower and change ur clothes before and after entering and dealing with each room and animal? So far it is only you (that I know of anyways) who it has apparently been transmitted to other snakes via the air... And you don't even know yet for certain that you are dealing with this disease... Do you know of any other cases that it has been proven to be transmitted airborne? You may not even be dealing with either of these diseases! Maybe you should wait til the vets are done and conclusive tests have been done and you know for absolute certain that it is actually one of these diseases or not these at all before you go stating that "it is almost certain this is the (only) way IBD/OPMV are transmitted"... (Yes, yes, I know, probabilities, probabilities, but for a court case, you need FACTS, and you ARE trying to build a potential case from what I last heard/read) Sorry, I'm just a bit sceptical when nothing has been 100% proven yet... When the results come back, and they show to be 100% conclusive, let us know... Try not to assume and jump to conclusions so much JUST yet...like others have said, and be patient and wait for the vets to finish


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## Dan19 (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Im sure at 18 you know everything, thats clearly proved with this "to me you are no better than a 5yr old."


 
The "5 year old" comment is most probably refering to your attidude. As i have already said anyone who doesnt agree with you, you think is wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and i think if you start accepting others opinions you will get along with everyone on this forum a lot better then what you have started with.


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## gozz (Dec 9, 2008)

rockman said:


> Bec's ,
> What if those people with substantial collections dont quarantine properly , ie: put all new arrivals into the same 6 x 6 mtr room , what happens then ? , and what if they buy / recieve in numbers of new arrivals , and put them all into the same room , it would be like " lucky dip " , what do you think ? .
> 
> Cheers


 correct the only way is to have multiple rooms and to quarintine for a minimun of 2 years very hard ,people need to stop buying ,to sort all the virus infected sourses


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## =bECS= (Dec 9, 2008)

rockman said:


> Bec's ,
> What if those people with substantial collections dont quarantine properly , ie: put all new arrivals into the same 6 x 6 mtr room , what happens then ? , and what if they buy / recieve in numbers of new arrivals , and put them all into the same room , it would be like " lucky dip " , what do you think ? .
> 
> Cheers



I agree completely.

I think you took my post the wrong way.
My point was that most with expensive collections quarantine the right way. Which is in a separate dwelling to the one the main collection is housed.
I said usually, because its not always the case.

Alot of people seem to think that to quarantine just means to keep in a separate room and wash hands between handling or interacting. This is not the case.

I was in no way defending the seller, i find their response to HR from the word go disgusting, and it took a somewhat public flaming (although the name couldn't be mentioned in the threads, majority know who the seller is) to get some action. 

I have never and will never deal with this seller, i have always found their practices appalling, as well as their public displays and failure to be sure those they are 'teaching' understand the full consequences in dealing with certain snakes. 

At the same time, HR cant just jump the gun and blame the seller until all possible reasons have been covered/ruled out.

For example, transmission from the vet, which i might add, seems to have been ignored.


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
*[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Inclusion Body Disease[/FONT]*

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Inclusion body disease (IBD) has been increasingly diagnosed in boas and pythons ("boids"). It is believed to be a retrovirus. The way it affects these two groups of snakes is slightly different but the long term effects are the same: the disease is terminal in those animals who exhibit symptoms of the disease.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Pythons, although their symptoms may be somewhat less, are just as affected as boas. There are asymptomatic carriers, so the fact that a boa or python within an infected collection does not show signs of the illness should not be taken to mean that it is immune to it. Boas are most associated with being asymptomatic carriers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Signs of infection in boas include central nervous system disorders such as paralysis, being unable to right itself when turned over, "star-gazing", inability to strike or constrict. Other signs include chronic regurgitation, extreme weight loss, respiratory infections, and dysecdysis due to the inability to control body movements enough to rub off the old skin. The disease is rapidly fatal in young and juvenile boas, typified by rapid onset of flaccid paralysis.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]In pythons, the disease progresses much more rapidly than in boas. Along with the above symptoms (excluding the chronic regurgitation), pythons also tend toward infectious stomatitis ("mouth rot"), heightened or exaggerated reflex responses, disorientation (which may be precipitated by the onset of central blindness) and loss of motor coordination.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]What causes this disease? Intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies have been identified in the epithelial cells of the kidneys and pancreas. Neuronal degeneration and lesions form in the spinal cord and brain, and may be accompanied by myelin degeneration and nerve damage. Damage to the spleen is also found, with that organ being grossly atrophied and fibrosed. Electron microscopy has found that the organism falls into the retrovirus category.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred but it is not implicated in all cases of infection.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]There is at this time no treatment for the disease and, as it is at this time always fatal and highly contagious, euthanasia is the course of action recommended. Even if the snake can be kept alive through supportive measures (hydration and force-feeding), the damage to the nerves, brain, spinal cord and internal organs is so great--and progressive--that live is only prolonged with an ever decreasing quality and increasing pain.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Due to the increasing incidence of this disease, it cannot be stated or urged strongly enough to QUARANTINE ALL NEW BOIDS upon acquisition for at least 3-6 months, and to take precautions when visiting other collections, pet stores and expos/swaps.[/FONT]​ 


*[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Sources[/FONT]*​[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Bennett, R. Avery. (1996) Neurology. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 141-148. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Done, Lisa B. (1996). Postural Abnormalities. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 406-411. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Murray, Michael J. (1996) Pneumonia and Normal Respiratory Function. In Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, DVM, ed. pp. 396-405 W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia PA.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Schumacher, Juergen, Elliott R. Jacobson, Bruce L. Homer, Jack M. Gaskin. (1994). Inclusion Body Disease in Boid Snakes. _Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine_ 25(4):51-524.[/FONT]



http://members.iinet.net.au/~bush/append21.html


*Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) in Pythons: *​ 

*a Reminder of the Importance of Quarantine*​ 


By Brian Bush, 9 Birch Place, Stoneville WA 6081​ 




*INTRODUCTION*


Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) of boid snakes (pythons and boas) has been recognised since the mid 1970’s (Schumacher _et al_., 1994). Although other families of snakes are reported to have contracted IBD (Colubridae and Viperidae), it is primarily a python (subfamily Pythoninae) and boa (subfamily Boinae) specific disease. The first occurrence of IBD was only documented in Australia as recently as 1998 in a carpet python (_Morelia spilota variegata_) and a diamond python (_M. s. spilota_) from Queensland (Carlisle-Nowak _et al_., 1998). Although the Carlisle-Nowak _et al_. paper is the first published record, they mention that unpublished cases of Australian pythons with clinical and histological findings consistent with IBD have been recorded in the New South Wales Taronga Park pathology register. There is also a belief in the herpetological community that IBD has already caused a significant number of deaths in a Victorian reptile collection. Possibly the first record for Western Australia is August 1999 when Dr George Scott of Deep Wood Veterinary Clinic and Dr John Jardine from Vetpath Laboratory Services reported IBD Boid Virus in a python they were examining that had died from a mysterious illness.

Pythons are native to Australia and boas are exotic; both subfamilies are kept in zoos and as pets by private individuals. There is no treatment currently available for IBD and it is invariably fatal in pythons. Although the disease can be diagnosed in sick pythons, it is usually only confirmed at autopsy. One of the principal researchers into IBD, Dr Elliott Jacobson, University of Florida, has isolated three retroviruses in snakes with IBD and expects the development of a serological test to determine exposure to these within about twelve months.

Although the route of transmission of this disease is unknown, infestation with snake mite (_Ophionyssus natricis_) is a common finding in many affected snakes and may play a role in viral transmission (Schumacher, 1996). Dave Barker, well-known North American boid breeder (pers. com., 25 Jan. 2000) states, “IBD really has proven to be almost no problem at all in collections with no mites, but it has decimated boid collections with bad mite problems.” 

Of considerable concern in Western Australia are three records from near Perth of snake mite infestations in wild caught carpet pythons (_Morelia spilota imbricata_). The first of these was a very dehydrated specimen from Roleystone in September 1994 and documented in the Western Australian Society of Amateur Herpetologists’ _WASAH Newsletter_ No. 2. This snake died shortly afterwards from what was believed at the time to be a mite-related disease, however no autopsy was done to confirm if this was so. A second infested individual was collected at Martin in late 1995 and a third as recently as October 1999. The occurrence of snake mite in the wild in WA probably explains the sudden outbreaks of infestation in collections reported to me recently. Hoser (1995) refers to the establishment of mite in Melbourne, Victoria. 

Both snake mite and diseases such as IBD highlight the need for quarantine procedures to be in place when animals are acquired and the need for close scrutiny of animals before their release. Given that volunteers with permanent collections of their own temporarily hold many reptiles prior to relocation during Regulation 4 and 15 removals, it is possible that locally exotic pathogens can be introduced to the wild. The relatively recent identification of this disease and the little we know about it call for some caution at this point in time. 

One of the aims of this article is to promote safeguards to 

· Reduce the transmission of IBD between reptile collections and outbreaks of other diseases. 
· Reduce the negative impact an outbreak could have on the new pet-keeping system to be implemented here shortly (Crown Law has completed the first draft of the legislative changes and returned them to CALM). 
· Protect the wild population from symptomatic IBD.
· Warn other zoo facilities and keepers of any recorded outbreaks through some formal disease notification process.

It is also expected that further benefits of this article, through its wide readership, will be to

· Encourage minimum standards of competence in husbandry procedures in commercial facilities able to supply reptiles to the pet trade. 
· Raise awareness in keepers of the importance of basic hygiene and quarantine procedures.



*RECOMMENDATIONS*​ 

Quarantine should always be a fundamental protocol when introducing a new animal into a collection to reduce the risk of introducing disease or parasites. Animals brought in directly from the wild may pose a lesser risk but the acquisition of a captive animal, perhaps originating from a questionable source (eg a confiscated or locally exotic wild caught animal) poses a real problem from a husbandry point of view.

It may not be possible to totally eradicate symptomatic IBD from Western Australia, but hopefully it can be isolated from other collections and the wild population. Any collection/facility in this state with an outbreak of IBD must be quarantined until a successful treatment of this disease is found. Quarantine and safeguard procedures should include 

1. No further reptiles being acquired until the collection/facility is deemed clear of IBD.
2. No reptiles being allowed to leave until it is deemed clear of IBD.
3. CALM personnel undertaking inspections of quarantined facilities being required to shower prior to visiting other collections on the same day.
4. Notification by CALM of known IBD outbreaks to all commercial keepers.
It may also be sensible for CALM to enter into a contractual arrangement with one or more private zoos for them to care for confiscated animals and as a component of this contract provide the funding for the necessary quarantine facility to be installed.

*General information on mite control and quarantine: *Newly acquired reptiles should be isolated from the collection for no less than three months and kept on a white paper substrate. At the first opportunity a faecal sample should be examined for larger parasites, blood, tissue and excessive mucus - if any of these is found then identification of the parasite or the cause, by a pathologist if necessary, and the relevant treatment commenced. 

Snake mites are the scourge of many keepers in the Eastern States and overseas. Their ability to both convey disease and kill reptiles in all but the most vigilant keepers’ collections is widely acknowledged. Although small (a large female may be one-third the size of a pin head) they will be obvious on the white paper substrate as miniature black tick-like animals - the larger females have a whitish spot on the belly. A simple method of eradication of these on an infested reptile is the isolation of the host without water and its exposure to Sureguard Ministripsä in minimum-ventilated (pegboard lid) glass terrariums for three cycles of twenty-four hours separated by forty-eight hours between each exposure. It is paramount for keepers handling infested reptiles to scrub their hands immediately afterwards so that the mites are not transported to uninfested reptiles.

If you already keep and you suddenly find you have a mite infestation, it is important that cleaning cages before killing the infestation within does not compound the transfer of live mite. This can be achieved by placing the pesticide strip within the respective cage for at least twenty-four hours before cleaning.

To reinforce quarantine as a minimum husbandry procedure after the implementation of the new keeping system in WA I recommend - 

1. Commercial suppliers of reptiles experiencing infestations of snake mite (_Ophionyssus natricis_) and/or lizard mite (_Hirstiella trombidiiformis_) are required as a condition of their licence to notify prospective clients of this.
2. CALM temporarily prohibit commercial suppliers experiencing high numbers of deaths from supplying reptiles and investigate, at the supplier’s expense, to determine the cause of these deaths through postmortem examination and only lift the prohibition order once the pathogen and effective treatment have been identified. 

On a positive note regarding IBD I include the following paragraph from Dave Barker (pers. com., 28 Jan. 2000), 

“Python keepers have had a much easier time [than boa keepers] with IBD, basically because it appears to affect only the brain and death comes more quickly. The advantage is that the snake may show symptoms in weeks after exposure, (star-gazing, poor motor control, loss of appetite, coiling or constricting uncontrollably when they are stimulated) and so far as is known, pythons do not live longer than three months after infection. Python keepers are usually able to nip the problem in the bud very quickly.” 

Further, to reduce the potential for reptile disease epidemics to occur I recommend that CALM, rather than confiscating animals suspected of being illegal from known Western Australian keepers or residents, implement a “_confiscation in situ_” procedure by issuing an order to the keeper prohibiting the respective animals’ movement until investigations and court cases are complete. This will benefit CALM by reducing their workload, greatly reduce the risk of transmitting disease between collections and reduce the stress on the animals in question.


*ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS*


I thank the many people, too numerous to list here, who contributed to this document’s preparation during several earlier drafts when it was being prepared as a formal submission. In this modified form I take full responsibility for its content and accuracy. 


*REFERENCES*


CARLISLE-NOWAK, M.S., SULLIVAN, N., CARRIGAN, M., KNIGHT, C., RYAN, C. and JACOBSON, E.R. 1998. Inclusion body disease in two captive Australian pythons (_Morelia spilota variegata_ and _Morelia spilota spilota_). _Aust. Vet. J_. 76 (2): 98-100.
HOSER, R.T. 1995. Release into hell. _Monitor_ 7 (2): 77-88.
SCHUMACHER, J., JACOBSON, E.R., HOMER, B.L. and GASKIN, J.M. 1994. Inclusion body disease in boid snakes. _J. Zoo. Wildlf. Med._ 25: 511-524.
SCHUMACHER, J. 1996. Viral diseases. _In_: Mader, D.R. Editor. _Reptile Medicine and Surgery._ W.P. Saunders, Philadelphia, 230-231.




mailto:[email protected]


Return to Brian Bush's Homepage


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## Vixen (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Im sure at 18 you know everything, thats clearly proved with this "to me you are no better than a 5yr old."


 
Mate, I am ADMITTING I don't know everything, unlike you seem to be, hense the comment.

Nothing is proven about these diseases yet you bring up quotes and accept them as pure fact, and rather than taking my perfectly reasonable explanation on board you would rather insult me and boost your ego by saying flat out you know more than me. YOU are the one here who is assuming to know all, because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong!

My age has nothing to do with your arrogance and undeniabled perfect knowledge about all things reptile.


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## beeman (Dec 9, 2008)

Ishah said:


> Haha you state this SO much better than how I stated it (well TRIED anyways :lol: I think I have some form of dyslexia!:lol... And I was thinking too, how can you be SO sure, HR, that it IS infact airborne? Or are you just assuming that it is as you cannot think of any other way it could have got to the other animals? Did you quarantine like becs said? i.e. shower and change ur clothes before and after entering and dealing with each room and animal? So far it is only you (that I know of anyways) who it has apparently been transmitted to other snakes via the air... And you don't even know yet for certain that you are dealing with this disease... Do you know of any other cases that it has been proven to be transmitted airborne? You may not even be dealing with either of these diseases! Maybe you should wait til the vets are done and conclusive tests have been done and you know for absolute certain that it is actually one of these diseases or not these at all before you go stating that "it is almost certain this is the (only) way IBD/OPMV are transmitted"... (Yes, yes, I know, probabilities, probabilities, but for a court case, you need FACTS, and you ARE trying to build a potential case from what I last heard/read) Sorry, I'm just a bit sceptical when nothing has been 100% proven yet... When the results come back, and they show to be 100% conclusive, let us know... Try not to assume and jump to conclusions so much JUST yet...like others have said, and be patient and wait for the vets to finish


 

It will be near impossible to get an accurate diagnosis of either of these deseases as
there are no testing methods or facilities available in Australia.
At best after autopsy all that could be given is an educated guess! Hardly 100% accurate


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## =bECS= (Dec 9, 2008)

Now what was the point of that giant copy and paste? A simple link would have sufficed, and i dare say majority will just skip over that info.

I will ask again, did you quarantine as i said, and do you argue that there was no possibility that you could have brought the disease home from the vets?

edit (also, did you read who is credited in the references at the bottom , kind of ironic  )


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> Now what was the point of that giant copy and paste? A simple link would have sufficed, and i dare say majority will just skip over that info.
> 
> I will ask again, did you quarantine as i said, and do you argue that there was no possibility that you could have brought the disease home from the vets?
> 
> edit (also, did you read who is credited in the references at the bottom , kind of ironic  )


 
I posted it because for some reason i cant answer everyones questions it will only let me post every 10 minutes or something.

I had the purchased snake in the quarantine room which is located in my house. 

Yes in an ideal world we can quarantine in a nice little granny flat out the back but not all of us have one of them in the backyard.

Its very unlikely i brought any disease with me home from the vet because the animals were already sick when i went with them.


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## rockman (Dec 9, 2008)

gozz said:


> correct the only way is to have multiple rooms and to quarintine for a minimun of 2 years very hard ,people need to stop buying ,to sort all the virus infected sourses



Do you think that 2 years is enough ? .................. What 4 -5 years , do you think it would be possible to still be there ? .

Not having a dig , just asking !. 

Cheers


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## Ishah (Dec 9, 2008)

beeman said:


> It will be near impossible to get an accurate diagnosis of either of these deseases as
> there are no testing methods or facilities available in Australia.
> At best after autopsy all that could be given is an educated guess! Hardly 100% accurate


 

Something I was also indirectly getting at... Unless she sends the appropriate tissue samples O.S. she has buckley's and none of getting a 100% conclusion/answer hence no way of having any REAL credibility to stand up in court with! Hence why bother developing/ trying to develop a court case when nothing can be proven? At best, it would be better just to hope for peace of mind, as you are the only one you are trying to prove it to and you dont have to prove it to anyone else but yourself to get that (peace of mind).

ALSO I was getting at all her many assumptions, "almost certain" 's and "high probabilities" that she keeps going on about, when really it is just HER guess, not an educated guess (as, in most people's books AND mine, you have to have appropriate credentials and experience i.e. a vets degree and have been practicing and dealing with such (pathological)cases for 10yrs or so, to be worthy of your guess being called "educated") her guess is basically an uneducated guess at that... Sorry you didn't read my post as how it was suppose to come across... maybe I really do have undiagnosed dyslexia? :lol:


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## =bECS= (Dec 9, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I posted it because for some reason i cant answer everyones questions it will only let me post every 10 minutes or something.
> 
> I had the purchased snake in the quarantine room which is located in my house.
> 
> ...



So you showered and disinfected your shoes before and after entering the quarantine room?
You said the vet stated after autopsy that the snake died from worms and a perforated bowel. You also stated that the so called time period between infection and symptoms is approximately 30 days, which would have been roughly the same time between your visits and your snakes being sick now.

If i work on your basis of making accusations based purely on probabilities, then is it not a probability that the infection could have come from the vets based mathematically on the time periods between vet visits and symptoms?


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## horsesrule (Dec 9, 2008)

2 vets so far believe that in there educated guess and based on balance of probabilities the snakes have one of these diseases.


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## Casey (Dec 10, 2008)

In my opinion (which may not mean much) the lines between OPMV IBD are very blurred, they seem to have very similar symptoms eg stargazing weight loss secondary RI to name just a few

IBD infected animals can be [FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]asymptomatic carriers and so can OPMV infected animals. I personally have had a python for 16 months before any signs showed up. She was my only snake and if i ever came in contact with other collections would not handle her until I had changed, showered etc And would even not handle her on the same day if it could be avoided. I had her euthanased when she got sick. I later found out that the man i purchased her off had lost his snakes to something showing similar signs as what Nibbles had. 
I would say that in my experience the quarantine period needs to be much longer than the three to six months stated in the paper posted by HR. I have even had advise from the Western Plains Zoo vet clinic that a two year quarantine may not even be effective. Now that is a scary thought because think if you know anyone who quarantines for that long??

The thought that i am beginning to have and i may very well be wrong, is that these diseases are much like HIV/AIDs in humans where a human can live with the HIV virus for many years and show no signs and seem to be in good health..then something happens to tip the scales, some sort of secondary infection which the immune system struggles to fight, in humans this is when it is classed as full blown aids..my thinking is that with our snakes this may be when an [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]asymptomatic carrier begins to show signs and become a "Chronic poor doer" and usually dies shortly after. 

I'm not trying to say that HR did or didn't get it from this seller, because I just wouldn't know. I have just learnt that even though after 12months or more of owning a new snake its no guarantee that the animal is completely disease free.
[/FONT]


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## Ishah (Dec 10, 2008)

:faints: Again, post misread...must really have dyslexia (should go see a quack about it lol) I was not directing "your uneducated guesses" soley at whether it is or isnt IBD or not HR, was more directing it at almost everything that you have ever posted on the matter, i.e.nearly every post you say "most likely", "almost certain that it is...", "based on the probabilities", "the probabilities are very high/there is a high probability of..." etc etc and you dont just say this(those phrases) about whether it is or isnt IBD or OPMV, you say it on how it is spread, your quarantine procedures etc etc... everything... 

Not having a dig, just pointing out that nothing you have really said, has much to back it up, or anything just yet, and not many will believe anything until all your three vets have done autopsies etc etc (Also how can both vets be almost certain without performing autopsies is a bit skew-if (sp?) it would be more of an idea - splitting hairs, I know, but that just what it would take for me to believe it is what you assume it is... the sick python you have now, sounds like it might have it, but who would know? not me)

Anyways, seeings as someone nearly never understands my posts, I'm just going to put it down to the fact that I may well have dyslexia, but will find out more when I see the quack/doc, as it has been suggested many times by myself and others that I have dyslexia, always jokingly, but now Im starting to worry :shock:, and I will stop trying to explain my previous posts as it is getting quite frustrating!:evil: Maybe I'm on a different thinking pattern/higher brainwave/frequency to most :lol:LOL! (jokes)


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

I agree and the more i think about it the more i realise at the end of the day it actually doesnt matter how i got it although i have my personal beliefs.

This disease is going to ruin herps.

Why would anyone in there right mind go buy blackheads, womas, gtp's or even an expensive jungle with this risk out there.

Its just not worth it.

Until they come up with a vaccine and or cure to this disease and also a way of testing for it ill never buy another snake again in my lifetime.

I have had a number of messages from people who have had this happen to them so im no where near the first in recent years and im certain ill be no where near the last.


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## No-two (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Why would anyone in there right mind go buy blackheads, womas, gtp's or even an expensive jungle with this risk out there.


 
Because some of us can afford to buy good clean reptiles, rather then go to a shop and buy crap quality diseas ridden animals.

Maybe if you were buying womas or gtps you'd have thought about who you were buying from and bought quality. 

They're not allowed to sell womas and gtps in shops so if you'd spent the money you'd be scott free and we wouldn't have to read all these ridiculous comments.

I'm not at all saying it's the sellers problem either, you should've quarantined better, and you're jumping the gun way to fast. I hope it turns out a problem to do with the excessive mite spray treatment. They're chemicals, you shouldn't use them unless you 99.9%  have to.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I have to agree with others, for someone who's had herps for 20years you don't know much.


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## Troyster (Dec 10, 2008)

i have just sat and read every post in this thread and now have a headache,but the few things i have taken from it is there is no proof and it will be very hard to obtain such evidence,and that is what is needed as you dont win court cases on probabilities and speculation.the second point i would like to make is you need to be EXTREMELY careful from here on in horsesrule as i believe you are treading a very fineline and are coming quite close to finding yourself in court on a defimation matter as you are making huge accusations without any hard evidence to back it up.anyway thats my 2 cents worth and eagerly wait to see where the moderators allow this to go


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## Ewan (Dec 10, 2008)

HR, do you know what happened to the collections of others who purchased pythons from this high volume seller? An apparent highly contagious disease such as this could potentionally have impacted on hundreds and hundred of collections. Im sure from all the active threads so far on this topic someone would be in contact with you in the same situation with this seller. My advice would be to band together with others who are in your predicament to build your case against this seller. With all the evidence so far being circumstancial, with many many possible senarios, it seems like the only way. P.S. Sorry if this has already been covered, so many posts to read through.


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## rockman (Dec 10, 2008)

No-two said:


> Because some of us can afford to buy good clean reptiles, rather then go to a shop and buy crap quality diseas ridden animals.
> 
> Maybe if you were buying womas or gtps you'd have thought about who you were buying from and bought quality.
> 
> ...



Hey Mr RICHY RICH KID , 

I hope that one day something like this happens to you .
Maybe , and only maybe , you mightn't be such a W-NKER . 

This is most of the problem, instant KNOW-IT-ALL'S , that dont know SQUAT !.

Since you know everything , tell us how to stop it . If you can do that , HELL , YOUR BETTER THEN MOST VETS HERE IN AUSTRALIA ! . 

Give me a list of names of people that you have brought snakes off , and i might rock your little world .

Cheers


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## beeman (Dec 10, 2008)

Ishah said:


> Something I was also indirectly getting at... Unless she sends the appropriate tissue samples O.S. she has buckley's and none of getting a 100% conclusion/answer hence no way of having any REAL credibility to stand up in court with! Hence why bother developing/ trying to develop a court case when nothing can be proven? At best, it would be better just to hope for peace of mind, as you are the only one you are trying to prove it to and you dont have to prove it to anyone else but yourself to get that (peace of mind).
> 
> ALSO I was getting at all her many assumptions, "almost certain" 's and "high probabilities" that she keeps going on about, when really it is just HER guess, not an educated guess (as, in most people's books AND mine, you have to have appropriate credentials and experience i.e. a vets degree and have been practicing and dealing with such (pathological)cases for 10yrs or so, to be worthy of your guess being called "educated") her guess is basically an uneducated guess at that... Sorry you didn't read my post as how it was suppose to come across... maybe I really do have undiagnosed dyslexia? :lol:


 
Ishah
Sorry mate i wasnt having a go at you, Just sick to death of the statments relating to working with 3 vets now and they will come back with a positive result for one of these deseases! These things CANT be diagnosed in this country with any accuracy!


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## Chappy (Dec 10, 2008)

No-two said:


> Because some of us can afford to buy good clean reptiles, rather then go to a shop and buy crap quality diseas ridden animals.
> 
> Maybe if you were buying womas or gtps you'd have thought about who you were buying from and bought quality.
> 
> ...



Stupid thing to say mate. Thanks for your contribution to the thread. By far one of the most un-educated , least helpfull and arrogant posts i have seen on APS.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> I think you will find that those with substantial collections usually quarantine in a room separate to the house (ie a shed or specialy built room)
> However, if you are quarantining in a room in your house, you need to change all clothes, and disinfect/shower before and after entering the room, this includes your shoes as well.
> 
> Now unless you have done this, it is very easy for you to pass any bugs and/or virus onto your main collection.


 
a breeder told me the other day he won't even enter a "pet shop/ repitile shop" these days and if he has too, he strips off everything as soon as he gets home, as all is washed including him! I thought he was joking , I now know better:shock: 
very scarry stuff:evil:


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## olivehydra (Dec 10, 2008)

rockman said:


> Do you think that 2 years is enough ? .................. What 4 -5 years , do you think it would be possible to still be there ? .
> 
> Not having a dig , just asking !.
> 
> Cheers




Its been almost two years since my OPMV death (next Feb) and the last snake to enter my collection prior was already close to 18 months old. She is still healthy today so if she is the carrier I would say no, four years isnt safe. If it was another snake (that died) in my collection who was the vector, then that death occured almost nine years ago - so seven years to infect.
BTW, the mate of the OPMV snake is also still doing well.


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## amazonian (Dec 10, 2008)

Chappy said:


> Stupid thing to say mate. Thanks for your contribution to the thread. By far one of the most un-educated , least helpfull and arrogant posts i have seen on APS.


 
I don't know, I semi agree with them but would of worded it differntly.
I think what they meant to say was "that if you were spending serious coin, you would have done your research beforehand and wouldn't trust any tom dick or harry when it comes to stock"

Sounds reasonable to me.
I know I spent along time researching breeders before I purchased my GTP.
Big difference when it comes to spending $150 compared to $20,000 and I am sure you would agree that when it comes to the larger figures you put more effort into where you are spending it and making sure you are getting what you pay for quality wise.


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## gozz (Dec 10, 2008)

rockman said:


> Do you think that 2 years is enough ? .................. What 4 -5 years , do you think it would be possible to still be there ? .
> 
> Not having a dig , just asking !.
> 
> Cheers


Personally, no but it looks like we will need one room for every newly aquired snake. It is possible that the virus can lay dorment ,so its like playing Rusian roulette, Have they had many wild cases ? cheers


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## gozz (Dec 10, 2008)

rockman said:


> Hey Mr RICHY RICH KID ,
> 
> I hope that one day something like this happens to you .
> Maybe , and only maybe , you mightn't be such a W-NKER .
> ...


 Second that


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2008)

yes I agree with amazonian. I would have worded it differently but I strongly believe that pet shops are the most likely place that you will pick up an animal with disease, worms. mites etc.
The first place that an unscrupulous seller would try and offload diseased animals (before they die) is to a pet shop (imo) or on some basically anonymous online market like petlink etc

Personally I would never buy animals from any pet shop (australia wide) as I feel the risk is far too great of getting an animal that will or could, infect my collection. I only ever buy animals from blokes I know that have clean collections.. If I cant locate what I want within this small group then I dont look elsewhere and just go without... Its just not worth the risk (and expense) and stress and disappointment etc I don't even buy animals from breeders or keepers that are totally unknown to me, or who dont have a prior good reputation.. no matter what the price.. 

People should remember that if someone breeds quality animals and is reasonably known or well known to others in the hobby and online etc.. its less likely that an animal they sell would be sick. Apart from the fact that its totally wrong to sell such an animal, these breeders have a reasonable knowledge of reptiles and disease and if there was any problems they would likely be on top of it and not sell anything until it was erradicated. A good repuation for selling quality healthy animals would be shattered by selling rubbish so its in the sellers interests to sell you a good quality animal. that said.. sometime accidents do happen, but the probability of getting a good healthy animal from a known breeder with a good reputation is far greater than anywhere else. Price of the animal should be secondary to the health and quality. 

I see posts on here and elsewhere all the time about this snake or that from unknown seller A or B or some Petlink advert etc and shake my head.. even if you paid double the price for a top shelf excellent quality animal you would be far better off in the long run than buying cheap diseased rubbish. 

I hope your collection pulls through health wise horsesrule.. best of luck.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

Colin, unfortunalty most people that buy from pet/reptile shops are first time pyhton owners buying for a child or themselves and know nothing about mites or diseases that they can carry:cry: 
Maybe when appling for a licence a warning to new would be owners should be given, so they can make informed decisions


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## scout (Dec 10, 2008)

I find it amusing/disturbing that when some one mentions the possibility that they have contracted one of these diseases, they are attacked from all levels. The cold hard fact is that these diseases are out there. Due to the fact that there is not a lot of CONCRETE evidence on how it is either transmitted or how long it can stay dorment means it will be almost impossible to stop. It is not productive to attack people who are mentioning that they have had(possible) contact with these diseases. If every person kept quiet, then the disease would spread more quickly. Isnt it better to know where the disease is turning up so potential buyers can be more diligent when purchasing and quarrenteeing a reptile. It would also put a stop to these sellers who knowingly are selling infected stock. If they dont have buyers they can not sell infected stock into other collections where it will spread further. If we dont do some thing soon we will loose all our herps over a period of time. Wouldnt it be more productive instead being negative to pull together and possibly fund research programs to help find solutions. if every one put in a little we may in a few years come up with a vaccine or medication to erradicateor cure these nasties.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

becswillbe said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> I think you took my post the wrong way.
> My point was that most with expensive collections quarantine the right way. Which is in a separate dwelling to the one the main collection is housed.
> ...


 pm me the name of the seller because i think you have the wrong dude


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2008)

tenacres1100 said:


> Colin, unfortunalty most people that buy from pet/reptile shops are first time pyhton owners buying for a child or themselves and know nothing about mites or diseases that they can carry:cry:



yes I know... but I still feel the need to rant on this subject


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## channi (Dec 10, 2008)

HR if I was you I would be concerned that I may have infected the breeders stock. It is a distinct possibility. As there is so little understanding about either of these diseases you seem to be throwing alot of mud. I do not know who this breeder is neither do I care. All you know for a fact about his stock is that some of them are infected with a heavy dose of worms, not that they are carrying a potentially fatal virus. By sending the sick snake back you may have actually introduced the virus to his stock, I hope for your sake that this is not the case. I am not saying that you are right or wrong but to be careful about what you say. If after all of these accusations it is proven that his stock have shown no symtoms until a little while after you returned the snake it may be that you will have to face legal proceedures. Just a thought.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

channi said:


> HR if I was you I would be concerned that I may have infected the breeders stock. It is a distinct possibility. As there is so little understanding about either of these diseases you seem to be throwing alot of mud. I do not know who this breeder is neither do I care. All you know for a fact about his stock is that some of them are infected with a heavy dose of worms, not that they are carrying a potentially fatal virus. By sending the sick snake back you may have actually introduced the virus to his stock, I hope for your sake that this is not the case. I am not saying that you are right or wrong but to be careful about what you say. If after all of these accusations it is proven that his stock have shown no symtoms until a little while after you returned the snake it may be that you will have to face legal proceedures. Just a thought.


 spot on


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

No-two said:


> Because some of us can afford to buy good clean reptiles, rather then go to a shop and buy crap quality diseas ridden animals.
> 
> Maybe if you were buying womas or gtps you'd have thought about who you were buying from and bought quality.
> 
> ...


 

Mmm another know it all at 16


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Troyster said:


> i have just sat and read every post in this thread and now have a headache,but the few things i have taken from it is there is no proof and it will be very hard to obtain such evidence,and that is what is needed as you dont win court cases on probabilities and speculation.the second point i would like to make is you need to be EXTREMELY careful from here on in horsesrule as i believe you are treading a very fineline and are coming quite close to finding yourself in court on a defimation matter as you are making huge accusations without any hard evidence to back it up.anyway thats my 2 cents worth and eagerly wait to see where the moderators allow this to go


 

No ones been named here.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

channi said:


> HR if I was you I would be concerned that I may have infected the breeders stock. It is a distinct possibility. As there is so little understanding about either of these diseases you seem to be throwing alot of mud. I do not know who this breeder is neither do I care. All you know for a fact about his stock is that some of them are infected with a heavy dose of worms, not that they are carrying a potentially fatal virus. By sending the sick snake back you may have actually introduced the virus to his stock, I hope for your sake that this is not the case. I am not saying that you are right or wrong but to be careful about what you say. If after all of these accusations it is proven that his stock have shown no symtoms until a little while after you returned the snake it may be that you will have to face legal proceedures. Just a thought.


 
sorry but reguardless of where the disease came from, thats not her fault that she was sold a sick snake and if the so called breeder took it back he should have quarantined it!!!!!


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## Chappy (Dec 10, 2008)

tenacres1100 said:


> sorry but reguardless of where the disease came from, thats not her fault that she was sold a sick snake and if the so called breeder took it back he should have quarantined it!!!!!



Here here x 2. I find it astounding that the breeder took back the sick worm infested snake and as HR said had it in and out of the bag numerous times around other snakes in the store. That to me is quite a worry. :shock: I cannot possibly see how HR could be responsible for contaminating his collection. In case people have forgotten the sick CAME FROM HIM in the first place!


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> spot on


 
does your mate, when he buys from all over the country quarantine them before selling them on to everyone? :shock:


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Chappy said:


> Here here x 2. I find it astounding that the breeder took back the sick worm infested snake and as HR said had it in and out of the bag numerous times around other snakes in the store. That to me is quite a worry. :shock: I cannot possibly see how HR could be responsible for contaminating his collection. In case people have forgotten the sick CAME FROM HIM in the first place!


 

Exactly.


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## Kersten (Dec 10, 2008)

Sure, he on sells after less than the minimum 6 month period (by his own admission)....that's good quarantining, right?


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## channi (Dec 10, 2008)

tenacres1100 said:


> sorry but reguardless of where the disease came from, thats not her fault that she was sold a sick snake and if the so called breeder took it back he should have quarantined it!!!!!


 Yes and she should have quarentined hers so what is your point exactly? If the snake became infected at her house and was sent back it would be infected because of poor quarentine.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

Kersten said:


> Sure, he on sells after less than the minimum 6 month period (by his own admission)....that's good quarantining, right?


 
when we got our first from a shop (yes I know now) it came from the breeder to this guy to the shop we got it from in less than 3 weeks!!!! 
thats quarantining for you:evil:


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

I have not in any post said 100% that i know for certain that it came from this seller.

I should state though for the record the following facts.

I actually paid above the going price for the animal i could have got one a lot cheaper of petlink.

Also as far as legal proceedings against me go i am not concerned.

There has been no defamation

*Defences for defamation*

*Justification/Contextual truth*
This is a complete defence in Victoria, regardless of how damaging a statement may be to a person's reputation.

*Defence of Honest opinion*
Where the defamatory matter complained of is proven to be an expression of opinion honestly held by the author rather than as a statement of fact.

Further to all this if the seller decided to take legal action i am sure that many people would come out of the wood work with past grievances so that wont be positive for the seller.

Any legal action i decide to take will only happen if there is a strong case to take forward once we get to the bottom of what the hell is going on.

I stated that from the beggining.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

channi said:


> Yes and she should have quarentined hers so what is your point exactly? If the snake became infected at her house and was sent back it would be infected because of poor quarentine.


 

so if HE quarentined he doesn't have a problem does he?


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

channi said:


> Yes and she should have quarentined hers so what is your point exactly? If the snake became infected at her house and was sent back it would be infected because of poor quarentine.


 

The snake returned had issues and was sick, now we can debate and speculate what it had but rather than that lets just all agree it had something wrong with it.

It was seen by a vet prescribed worm treatment, weighed it was underweight for its size. 

It then would not eat.

Started acting funny then was returned. 

Approx 2 weeks after it was returned i noticed the first animal of mine sick and then about a week after that the second.

I dont know what the hell happened to the snake after i left and to be honest i dont care.

Just like im sure the seller does not care whats now happening to us.


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## channi (Dec 10, 2008)

tenacres1100 said:


> so if HE quarentined he doesn't have a problem does he?


 And had she quarentined she doesn't have a problem does she, your arguments are poor please give up. I did not say any thing bad about HR (I do not know her or have anything against her) I said be careful, do not let your emotions run away with you.


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Bottom line is the 2 snakes that were purchased were quarantined.

Its not possible to have a bio med quarantine set up in a suburban house.

If i do have an outbreak of one of the 2 most likely diseases mentioned here and it is airborne then there was nothing i could have done.

As i said in a previous post unless you have a nuclear bunker style set up where all the air is filtered then there is no way of being 100% certain that your quarantine set up is enough.


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## channi (Dec 10, 2008)

My point is at this stage there is no way of being 100% certain that you didn't already have the problem in your collection and by coincidence the outbreak has happened now. And if you have infected his collection is "there is nothing I could have done" good enough. If you said yes then you need to accept the same response from him. It is a horrible thing to happen and I know you need answers about where it came from but the simple truth is there is no way of really knowing and anything else is just speculation.


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

channi said:


> And had she quarentined she doesn't have a problem does she, your arguments are poor please give up. I did not say any thing bad about HR (I do not know her or have anything against her) I said be careful, do not let your emotions run away with you.


 


quote 1 HR if I was you I would be concerned that I may have infected the breeders stock.

she returned HIS sick python, so if he Quarantined he has no problem



Quote 2. By sending the sick snake back you may have actually introduced the virus to his stock

if he Quarantined he still has no problem


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## Vixen (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Mmm another know it all at 16


 
Mmmm and once again you throwing around insults thinking you are better than everyone else.

Every poster in this thread has had a valid point yet you are still ignoring everyones opinions like they were uttered by a ghost. Take a step back from kissing your own *** sweetheart its getting old.

Please explain why you think anyone under the age of 18 is a know it all as I would LOVE to hear your logic after listening to you ramble like you are god of all reptile knowledge for the last 10 pages.


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

VixenBabe said:


> Mmmm and once again you throwing around insults thinking you are better than everyone else.
> 
> Every poster in this thread has had a valid point yet you are still ignoring everyones opinions like they were uttered by a ghost. Take a step back from kissing your own *** sweetheart its getting old.
> 
> Please explain why you think anyone under the age of 18 is a know it all as I would LOVE to hear your logic after listening to you ramble like you are god of all reptile knowledge for the last 10 pages.


 

Vixen it was you and the 16 year old who threw the insults.


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## Vixen (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Vixen it was you and the 16 year old who threw the insults.


 
How is me suggesting you may have had OPMV before you aquired the worm infested snake, and that noone knows exactly how either disease is transmitted or how long it takes until symptoms may appear, insulting?

I am merely stating my opinion as you seem to think there are definate facts written down about the disease when theres not. Eg. You suggesting it takes 30 days, saying its transmission is airborne. Noone knows for sure, I am merely trying to help by adding to the list of possibilites before just blaming the seller.


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## tattoolizzie (Dec 10, 2008)

I've read this thread through and have great empathy for the frustration and anger that you have, Horses rule - this would be devastating for anyone, despite whether it is a case of IBD or not. 

I have to say though, you have been highly critical of many people who have presented logical views/theories that may conflict with your views. 

I think it is appalling to discredit someones opinion on the basis of their age rather than the validity of their argument, particularly when your own is based on a number of unsubstantiated assumptions. 

Lizzie


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Ok, so the thread doesnt get closed down and to stop difference of opinions.


The 2 sick animals wil be seen by a vet on Sunday. 

1 will be euthanised and an autopsy will be performed. Depending on what is found will depend on whether further animals are euthanised.

An autopsy will not provide a 100% guaranteed result however it will point to suggestive conditions and or diseases.

Once we get the results we will post them and we can then all discuss them.

The animal / s that will be ethanised will not be dying in vain and will at least be contributing to science and a better understanding of snake diseases. 

The dead snakes will then have harvest tissues taken to develop a test for OPMV.

So until then thank you to all who have supported us and offered advice and support and well wishes.


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## Troyster (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> No ones been named here.


 


yes youre right horsesrule you havent.you have only refered to ballarat,however when i pm'ed you to find out you did reply very fast so im presuming and running with your probability theory you did so to anybody who asked there for you have effectively named the seller which is indeed leaving you open to defimation


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Troyster said:


> yes youre right horsesrule you havent.you have only refered to ballarat,however when i pm'ed you to find out you did reply very fast so im presuming and running with your probability theory you did so to anybody who asked there for you have effectively named the seller which is indeed leaving you open to defimation


 


I have only stated the truth about where the snake that died and the one that was returned sick was purchased from.

I have an autopsy to back me up that the snake was sick when i got it.

There is no legal case as i have said and i will say again truth is a complete defence to slander. And there is no slander.

Our priority is getting to the bottom of whats going on here.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

hey horse caching ha ha by the way theres no way your been keeping snakes for 20 years reading your other posts and threads you no jack all about snakes and the laws and useing to much mite spray even just in the cages will kill your snakes trust me i know and who the hell users mite spray when ya don't have mites anyway oh you do lol  have a nice day paul


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## TRIBULL (Dec 10, 2008)

HEY WERE IN MELBOURNE DID YOU GET IT,i ask as i live in Melbourne
and wouldnt want to buy from the same supplier.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

OK PEOPLE I KNOW FOR A FACT that the snake that was handed back is doing great eatin 3 rats no worries all the other snakes in the shop are all good and that is fact and i know some other stuff but icant say ha ha caching cheers paul from ballarat :lol:


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> OK PEOPLE I KNOW FOR A FACT that the snake that was handed back is doing great eatin 3 rats no worries all the other snakes in the shop are all good and that is fact and i know some other stuff but icant say ha ha caching cheers paul from ballarat :lol:


 
Yeah sure lol

With the amount of snakes this seller has im sure a simmilar healthy replacement is being talked about.

Clearly your another employee just spinning ****


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

to the dude who runs this site how long would this thread last if the person you know who. was a sponsor


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Yeah sure lol
> 
> With the amount of snakes this seller has im sure a simmilar healthy replacement is being talked about.
> 
> Clearly your another employee just spinning ****


that is fact come up and have a look and i dont work there i make lollies at the mars bar factory


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> to the dude who runs this site how long would this thread last if the person you know who. was a sponsor


 


So they now want to buy a sponsorship to try and restrict free speach and the fact this seller sold 2 snakes 1 which died 1 which was in poor condition.

This just confirms what many of us now know.


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> that is fact come up and have a look and i dont work there i make lollies at the mars bar factory


 

Nope i have better things to do with my time.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

no just making a point because this site could be lible. spelling


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> to the dude who runs this site how long would this thread last if the person you know who. was a sponsor


 
so if he was a sponsor, are you saying this couldn't be talked about? I thought we still lived in a free country


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> that is fact come up and have a look and i dont work there i make lollies at the mars bar factory


 
hey do you make them killa pythons there great


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> OK PEOPLE I KNOW FOR A FACT that the snake that was handed back is doing great eatin 3 rats no worries all the other snakes in the shop are all good and that is fact and i know some other stuff but icant say ha ha caching cheers paul from ballarat :lol:


 you cant look after snakes you got no idea lady


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> no just making a point because this site could be lible. spelling


 

Tell your friend to come sue me i look forward to seeing his baseless claim, I can assure you your friend can expect a counter claim.

Also i can ensure you that if this harrasment keeps up i will contact certain media outlets.

You should quit while your ahead.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

by the way horse what are you wearing :shock:


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## Lewy (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> by the way horse what are you wearing :shock:


 

OMG where are the mods, Get rid of this immature idiot


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## tsbjd (Dec 10, 2008)

Sure its not a ploy to get thread shut down?


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

It is a ploy to get the thread shut down.

No doubt about it.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Tell your friend to come sue me i look forward to seeing his baseless claim, I can assure you your friend can expect a counter claim.
> 
> Also i can ensure you that if this harrasment keeps up i will contact certain media outlets.
> 
> You should quit while your ahead.


 harrasment i think not im just a lollie maker i make m&ms ha ha ha ha ha he he


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

at the end of the day people that snake that was handed back is doing great dont forget that


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## Lewy (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> at the end of the day people that snake that was handed back is doing great dont forget that


 

LOL After all the immature rubbish you have been righting I wouldent believe a word you say


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## Chappy (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> at the end of the day people that snake that was handed back is doing great dont forget that


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> at the end of the day people that snake that was handed back is doing great dont forget that


 

The vet didnt seem to think the animal was "doing great"

Thats why it was returned.

Its clear your here to cause trouble and try and have the thread shut down.


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## Chappy (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> It is a ploy to get the thread shut down.
> 
> No doubt about it.



I cant see why though if there as innocent as they say they are!!


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> by the way horse what are you wearing :shock:


 
I see your true colors are now coming out, your mate must be very proud of you, it's doing his business the world of good


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

This just confirms what most of us already know.


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## scorps (Dec 10, 2008)

Wow its still going, cant beilve it hasnt been closed yet.

sorry for your lose horserule but yeah its the reptile world, stuff like this happens.


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## Chappy (Dec 10, 2008)

Why should it be closed?? No one has been named and its informing everyone of the dangers that are out there that can affect our Herps. The only thing that should be shut is Elapid66 account for trolling and harrasing.


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## Lewy (Dec 10, 2008)

tenacres1100 said:


> I see your true colors are now coming out, your mate must be very proud of you, it's doing his business the world of good


 

Yer it amazes me that some one of 42 years of age can speak like such a child, I mean there are 10 year old's who have written smarter thing on here


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## tenacres1100 (Dec 10, 2008)

Lewy said:


> Yer it amazes me that some one of 42 years of age can speak like such a child, I mean there are 10 year old's who have written smarter thing on here


 
maybe it's all the sugar


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66





*Regular Member*
Join Date: Sep-07
Location: ballarat vic
Age/Gender: 42




Posts: 31 



*Re: Being Kept* 

im a friend of the family 


This sums it all up.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

what can't you people understand the snake that was handed back is all good dah and horse how about i show some of the pms you sent me people don't believe evey thing you see on here most of it is crap


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## Mrs I (Dec 10, 2008)

The thread should be closed everything that needs to be said has been said, now its just a slanging match.


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## Lewy (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> what can't you people understand the snake that was handed back is all good dah and horse how about i show some of the pms you sent me people don't believe evey thing you see on here most of it is crap


 

Especialy what you have been saying!!!!


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## CodeRed (Dec 10, 2008)

Mud sticks, so even if it isnt IBD or OPMV or didnt come from the animals in question then this seller's reputation is screwed (it wasnt very good to start with anyway)


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## Lewy (Dec 10, 2008)

Yer and its not like his so called friend help in any way


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## xScarlettex (Dec 10, 2008)

omg! i just read this whole thread and im exhausted!!!
Horsesrule- sorry to hear about whats happened and i hope none of your other reptiles are affected..

Although this thread had turned to **** Im glad i spent the time reading it coz i didnt know much about these diseases and now i know to be more careful when spending time around other peoples animals.


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## Dan19 (Dec 10, 2008)

Lewy said:


> Yer and its not like his so called friend help in any way


 
It's not like HR helped either, by jumping to conclusions and spreading the word that this seller is bad. Get some proper evidence about your IBD claims and people might stop thinking the way they do about you.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 10, 2008)

Hmmmn..... here goes nothing...

I want to quantify to all those who will read this post,my position on the situation at hand. I am not putting forward my opinion as a defence for the person Horsesrule is alluding to, nor am I trying to discredit her. My intention is to highlight the fact that internet forums seem to have become the spawning ground for many a lynch mob, bandwagons for herpers who's only expertise is being able to pay their internet connections on time.... and in my honest opinion, this sort of mentality will end up catching some of the better characters in the game out,because a mob was rallied to burn out the seller of an animal that dies to no fault of their own.

Horsesrule, I dont know how much you have read about OPMV, but your liable defence of telling the truth, couldnt punch its way out of a wet paper bag. If you are taken for liable, the ball will be in your court to prove you were telling the truth. Now tell me, how the hell do you prove that an animal has OPMV? If you can find a Vet that will give you a diagnosis of gauranteed OPMV, I suggest that you find a new Vet, as there is no way to prove without a doubt that a reptile has it, the best diagnosis would be "consistant with OPMV" which is by no means a definite answer, and will not stand in any court worth its salt. Now I bet your ticking over in your head the old " I will send material internationally to get tested then", nice try but no cigar. From the information I have read, even the international testing is flawed, ask Herp Doc, otherwise there wouldnt be various labs around the country trying to develop new tests.... the only flaw with merely transposing the international tests here is the inability to bring in the viral material into the country, though substituting the material here wouldnt be all that difficult, seeing as they would most probably be able to apply data from the previous labs. Furthermore, being a virus which already has a few identifiable strains, are your sure the flawed international tests would even recognise the strain your animals may or may not have.

I could go on and on, though I will let you chew on that for the moment.

ps. for all those ready to jump me for incorrect terminology and such.... I was making the post as bandwagon friendly as possible.


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## Lewy (Dec 10, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> It's not like HR helped either, by jumping to conclusions and spreading the word that this seller is bad. Get some proper evidence about your IBD claims and people might stop thinking the way they do about you.


 

Yes I do agree with you Dan

I was just stating how childish elapid66 has acted on this topic Not saying that HR has been much better but she hasn't said stupid crap like WHAT ARE YOU WEARING and so on 

Lewy


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## Fiona74 (Dec 10, 2008)

This thread has to be coming close to breaking the record for longest thread / most bitchiness / most childish and most informative all in one!
What a read!


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> It's not like HR helped either, by jumping to conclusions and spreading the word that this seller is bad. Get some proper evidence about your IBD claims and people might stop thinking the way they do about you.


 

I have only stated my oppinion i maintain its yet to be proved 100%


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## Dan19 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I have only stated my oppinion i maintain its yet to be proved 100%


 
Yes, your opinion. Yet it still downgrades the seller and if you are proven wrong, then there is no way of taking this back, you have taken down his reputation for a veeerry long time.


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Lets await the autopsy results hey.

Then we can all say what we think.


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## Dan19 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Lets await the autopsy results hey.
> 
> Then we can all say what we think.


 
Yay, that will be another 15 pages of crap.


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> Yes, your opinion. Yet it still downgrades the seller and if you are proven wrong, then there is no way of taking this back, you have taken down his reputation for a veeerry long time.


 

I think he has destroyed his own reputation and caused the damage himself.

Had he have sold a healthy animal in the first place none of this would have occured.

The first snake would not have died
The second snake would not need to have been taken to the vet
The second snake would not need to have been returned.

The seller has damaged his own reputation not me or anyone else for that matter.

Lets keep this in perspective.

I was the victim here of a seller breaking the law in selling sick animals.

Now i have other snakes sick.


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## JasonL (Dec 10, 2008)

ihaveherps said:


> ps. for all those ready to jump me for incorrect terminology and such.... I was making the post as bandwagon friendly as possible.



Bandwagon Friendly????? No such thing!!!! either pick up your torch and pitch fork and join em or step aside buddy, no room for fence sitters on this site!


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## Dan19 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> I think he has destroyed his own reputation and caused the damage himself.
> 
> Had he have sold a healthy animal in the first place none of this would have occured.
> 
> ...


 
He bought the animal from someone, and then was selling it. He had as much chance to seeing it had worms as much as you.


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## AUSGECKO (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 42?, my three year old acts more appropriatly!!


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## Kersten (Dec 10, 2008)

In the words of Brick Tamland...."Loud Noises" :shock:


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> He bought the animal from someone, and then was selling it. He had as much chance to seeing it had worms as much as you.


 

Wrong 

He could have wormed both snakes


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## Lewy (Dec 10, 2008)

Geck82 said:


> elapid66 42?, my three year old acts more appropriatly!!


 
Good call


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## Dan19 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Wrong
> 
> He could have wormed both snakes


 
Yes but as people have said already(and your "20" years of herp knowledge should know this), it could be harmful to the snake if they don't have worms. Anyways, i'm not going to argue in the open forum like some, PM if you want to.


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

Dan19 said:


> Yes but as people have said already(and your "20" years of herp knowledge should know this), it could be harmful to the snake if they don't have worms. Anyways, i'm not going to argue in the open forum like some, PM if you want to.


 

There is no argument Dan its all fine.

We will await the autopsy and see how it goes from there.

I started this thread to try and promote discussion on this disease.

Somehow thats got lost.


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

Lewy said:


> Especialy what you have been saying!!!!


 ok people i will say it again the snake that was handed back is all good eating 3 rats no probes this is fact all the snakes in the shop are all good this is the truth trust me i know i have said time and time again for the people who think im talkin crap i feel sorry for you


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

Geck82 said:


> elapid66 42?, my three year old acts more appropriatly!!


 don't change the subject


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> Wrong
> 
> He could have wormed both snakes


 wormes have nothing to do with ibd


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## AUSGECKO (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> don't change the subject


 Im not changing the subject, If your putting the same post up multiple times shouldn`t it be clear to you that people are not interested in listning to your crap as lets face it thats what it is. Time to grow up mate. Save your dignity while you can.


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## horsesrule (Dec 10, 2008)

elapid66 said:


> ok people i will say it again the snake that was handed back is all good eating 3 rats no probes this is fact all the snakes in the shop are all good this is the truth trust me i know i have said time and time again for the people who think im talkin crap i feel sorry for you


 
The seller admitted to me he had animals out the back that were sick and were being treated with Baytril so your lying elapid.


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## CodeRed (Dec 10, 2008)

the only thing that couldve made this thread better if it was about hybrid GTPs instead of a boring old carpet


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

horsesrule said:


> The seller admitted to me he had animals out the back that were sick and were being treated with Baytril so your lying elapid.


im lying you got to be kiddin im liying what tha you got bi polar and i don't like being threatened be the cops lady in your last pm im lying arrrrrrr


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## elapid66 (Dec 10, 2008)

Geck82 said:


> Im not changing the subject, If your putting the same post up multiple times shouldn`t it be clear to you that people are not interested in listning to your crap as lets face it thats what it is. Time to grow up mate. Save your dignity while you can.


 that post is truth its that simple


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