# Snake ID, Coober Pedy



## becker09 (Sep 28, 2014)

Hello,

I am from Germany and right now here in Australia on a roadtrip through the outback.
A few days ago I saw a snake on a gravel road whilst driving.

I have no experience with identifying snakes and limited internet here so I would be really happy if you could help me.

At the moment I can just upload a picture from my smartphone.
I took some with my camera as well but the zoom didn't allow me to take close shots. And I also didn't get to close as I didn't know what it is. I may upload additional photos when I come home. 

Additional information:

Size: hard to say for me but if I had to guess I would say around 1.5 m

Colour: grey-brown, head more dark

Place: about 7 km nort east of Coober Pedy on the way to the dog fence, very dry area with very few vegetation. 

Conditions: around noon, about 30 degrees, very windy and cloudy

Behaviour: lying on the gravel road as we passed by, as we got of the car and it noticed us it slowly went off.

Thanks for your help
Jan


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## becker09 (Sep 28, 2014)




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## baker (Sep 28, 2014)

Inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus). Head shape, body shape, location and location. Very blurry pictures but nothing has a head like your last picture in that area. Very lucky to see a wild one of these. Lots of herpers go out looking for them and don't have any luck at all.
Cheers Cameron


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## eipper (Sep 29, 2014)

hi Jan

while I tend to agree with Cameron that it's most likely an Inland Taipan Oxyuranus microlepidotus, would like to see the other images you have of it from your camera. Can you please send them to me at [email protected] when you return home.

thanks
Scott


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## Bushman (Sep 29, 2014)

Welcome Jan. You've come to the right place to get a snake ID.
At first glance, the snake you've seen and photographed looks like a member of the brown snake genus (_Pseudonaja_ sp.). However, I agree that it looks more like an Inland Taipan (_Oxyuranus microlepidotus)_ because of the head shape and colour. i.e more elongate and darker than the body.
It would be good to see some better photos before giving you a more positive ID.


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## becker09 (Sep 29, 2014)

Thank you all for your answers. I will try to give you some better pictures tomorrow but don't expect to much from then 

It never came to my mind that it could be an inland taipan because I didn't know that there is a population of them near Coober Pedy. I just knew that it lives in those remote QLD areas.

Thanks again
Jan


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## Alexbee (Sep 29, 2014)

that's an awesome find.. id love to see one.. if you ever wanted to see deadly snakes on your trip this is as deadly as they come


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## Bushman (Sep 30, 2014)

No worries Jan. We're happy to help, especially with such a significant find as this. 8)
The apparently isolated population of taipans around Coober Pedy are a relatively recent discovery. 
The population is not shown on the distribution maps of even some fairly recent texts, so it's no surprise that you didn't know about them not being found there.
Here's a distribution map from AROD that includes the Coober Pedy population:





There is a paper by Read about this significant discovery. 
'A major range extension and new ecological data on Oxyuranus microlepidotus (Reptilia: Elapidae)' http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/41264024#page/157/mode/1up

If this find turns out to be an Inland Taipan, as we strongly suspect, then you should lodge the find.


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## becker09 (Sep 30, 2014)

Hello again,

unfortunately my other pictures turned out to have an even worse quality.
But luckily a friend who was with me on the trip also took some pictures.

I uploaded those for you in my Dropbox as they both have more than 10 mb.

Number 1 is not very interesting as it gets blurry again when you zoom in.
Number 2 should allow you to zoom in whilst the quality stays more acceptable.

I hope that this one can help 

Thanks
Jan

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/48843931/Snake Coober Pedy/Snake Coober Pedy 1 pm.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/48843931/Snake Coober Pedy/Snake Coober Pedy 2pm.jpeg


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## AllThingsReptile (Sep 30, 2014)

Yeah, the pics above are pretty conclusive hahah, id say Inland Taipan for sure


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## Bushman (Sep 30, 2014)

Thanks for providing better quality pics. That makes a big difference, as I can see individual body scales now; although I still can't see the temporal scales*, which is one of the most clear cut distinctive differences between _Oxyuranus _sp_._ and _Pseudonaja_ sp. that I know of (if the animal is in hand or if close-up pics are available).
* for those interested, _Oxyuranus_ sp. have relatively large temporal scales (_O. temporalis_ has one and _O. microlepidotus_ has two), as well as relatively large post-temporal scales. Whereas in _Pseudonaja mengdeni_, which is the next closest contender for this snakes ID (the local brown snake) the temporal scales are relatively small and the post-temporal scales small and fragmented or absent and like regular body scales.
However, despite not being able to see the temporal scales well enough to get a positive ID using this distinguishing characteristic alone, I feel that there's enough to go on using other features to make a positive ID for Inland Taipan (_Oxyuranus microlepidotus_).
Principal amongst these is the head shape, and although morphological differences in head shape are a bit difficult to describe I'll try. The Inland Taipan has a relatively longer and squarer looking snout, compared to _P. mengdeni_, which has a relatively shorter, more bluntly rounded snout and a relatively smaller, more petite looking head.
Other features that can be used to positively ID this snake as an Inland Taipan are incapsulated within the scientific name _Oxyuranus microlepidotus_. 'Oxyuranus' roughly translates to meaning long, sharply pointed tail, which this snake possesses. (_Pseudonaja_ sp. tails are relatively shorter and seem to taper more rapidly). 'microlepidotus' means small-scaled, referring to the relatively small scales or rather relatively higher number of midbody scales. From memory, _Oxyuranus_ sp. all have more than 21 mid-body scale rows and _O. microlepidotus_ has 23. Whereas, _Pseudonaja mengdeni_ only has 17 (or sometimes 19). You can clearly count at least ten mid-body scale rows on one flank in the recent photos (x2 to get the approx. mid-body count).


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## bigguy (Oct 1, 2014)

I found a DOR one about 150 Klms east of Windorah. Positive ID and a bit out of that distribution map


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## andynic07 (Oct 2, 2014)

1.5m is a bit big for a mengdeni as well [MENTION=23802]Bushman[/MENTION] .


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## becker09 (Oct 2, 2014)

Hello again,

I have one more question:

Is it also possible to use the eyes to distinguish _Pseudonaja mengdeni 
_and _Oxyuranus microlepidotus _?

On www.arod.com.au all the pictures of _Pseudonaja mengdeni _show an orange ring around the pupil, a feature that my picture does not show.


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## Lachie3112 (Oct 2, 2014)

becker09 said:


> Hello again,
> 
> I have one more question:
> 
> ...



I'm not an expert in snakes but I believe most venomous species have similar eyes, and therefore can't be used for identification. 
Although it's not really that reliable or recommended , In my view you can distinguish them by their colour, with inland taipans generally being dark and subdued in colour, whereas all the images I've seen of the western brown snake tend to have more bolder and brighter colours.


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## Bushman (Oct 3, 2014)

andynic07 said:


> 1.5m is a bit big for a mengdeni as well @Bushman .


Cogger has _Pseudonaja mengdeni _at 2 metres total length, which is also the average adult length of _Oxyuranus microlepidotus_.


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## eipper (Oct 3, 2014)

I am happy to confirm that is an inland taipan Oxyuranus microlepidotus. That last image via Dropbox is conclusive.


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## Bushman (Oct 4, 2014)

Thanks for confirming that Scott. Just out of curiosity, what features are you basing that on?



becker09 said:


> Hello again,
> 
> I have one more question:
> 
> ...



That's an interesting observation Jan and a difference that I hadn't noticed. Whilst it's not a difference mentioned in the textbooks and keys that I've looked at, there does seem to be some observable difference. Whilst both species have a very dark iris, _Pseudonaja mengdeni _has a reddish-orange ring around the pupil. It's a subtle difference but I think that you may be right there. Well observed. I should just mention that you usually need several criteria to make an ID with, especially with similar looking species like these two.

Congratulations on a great find. 8)


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## GBWhite (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi Bushman,

I think you'll find that the in Wilson and Swan's Fourth Edition of "A Complete Guide to Reptiles of Australia" their description of O microlepidotus includes "a dark iris". Their description of P mengdeni includes "iris dark broken reddish/orange ring around pupil". 

Ingram's Brown Snakes (Pseudonaja ingrami) also possess a dark iris (without a reddish or orange ring) and happen to occur within the range of O microlepidotus but unlike the snake in these photos they have 17 mid body scales.

George.


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## Bushman (Oct 4, 2014)

Thanks George. You're absolutely right. I've just found it in my third edition (can't find my 4th). The iris colour does seem to be a valid and documented difference then. 
Not that I recommend that folks look closely into the eyes of either of these snakes in order to tell them apart.


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## andynic07 (Oct 8, 2014)

Bushman said:


> Cogger has _Pseudonaja mengdeni _at 2 metres total length, which is also the average adult length of _Oxyuranus microlepidotus_.



2m sounds very big for a mengdeni. I thought they maxed out around 1m. Here is a couple of pictures of mine with some eye shots, it is just under a meter and about as thick as your pointer finger.


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## Bushman (Oct 9, 2014)

It does sound surprisingly big doesn't it. Perhaps it's the maximum rather than the average, as Wilson and Swan have the total length of mengdeni at 1.2 m.

Those pics illustrate the reddish-orange ring around the pupil quite well. BTW nice mengdeni.


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