# Heating at night?



## Raebiez (Oct 20, 2015)

What is everyone's opinion on heating during the night?
I have found conflicting information online about whether or not to turn heat lamps off and was wondering what everyone else likes to do.

I have turned mine off during the night in the summer months.
I have had red heat bulbs constantly running (on a thermostat, of course).
And I have had moonlight heat bulbs constantly running.

I have not noticed any positives or negatives to any of these options in regards to any of my snake's behaviour.
They carry on as per usual.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Oct 20, 2015)

I only heat hatchlings 24/7.


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## Raebiez (Oct 20, 2015)

I've given every thing a go to see what works for them, but they don't seem to care.
I would have assumed the red bulbs would confuse them to night and day.
And I don't want to not heat at night over winter months. But then there's the old "but in the wild...." debate.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Oct 21, 2015)

What animals?


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## Raebiez (Oct 21, 2015)

I have a jungle, coastal and a woma.


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## BredliFreak (Oct 21, 2015)

I have constant heating for my carpet and my lizards's heat mat is on through both the night and day (though turned off when too hot) and it hasn't appeared to bother them but I'm going to change the timings on red's ceramic light so it goes cooler at night. It wouldn't be easy to survive the canberra weather without heating!

Bredli


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## Pauls_Pythons (Oct 21, 2015)

24hr heat & light are known to be detrimental to the health of reptiles. At least this can & likely will lead to stress & _*I believe*_ reduce the animals lifespan. 
Constant heating through winter months has the same effect to a greater degree, the animals need a break. 

I'm not trying to scare you off but _*it's my opinion*_ that reptile keepers play a significant role in the early demise of many animals.

There will be many others who may tell you I'm talking [email protected] and that's fine, it's their opinion. I suggest you do lots of research & talk to people you trust who have been keeping for many years, not the usual 5 minute experts. I learned the hard way as did many others on here who may or may not be willing to share their experiences.


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## Sdaji (Oct 21, 2015)

People talk about 'no heat' but there's no such thing when keeping reptiles. 'No heat' might mean 30 degrees in Cairns or -2 degrees in a shed in Ballarat, or anything from 15 degrees in your house and 25 degrees in the house next door, or a different room in the same house. If I was living in Cairns and keeping reptiles in an insulated building I probably wouldn't be heating anything at night. If I lived in Ballarat Victoria and was keeping animals in a shed, I'd be keeping the tropical snakes heated at night.

If I was keeping Carpets and Womas in Brisbane, as you are, it would still depend on the type of house and where the snakes were, but I would be giving them some time unheated at night all year, probably most/all of the night most/all of the year. Brisbane's climate makes keeping snakes pretty easy as long as you make sure they don't get too hot.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Oct 21, 2015)

My BHP's have no artificial heat at night once they pass 1 year old and I'm in Melbourne.


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## cement (Oct 21, 2015)

Raebiez said:


> I've given every thing a go to see what works for them, but they don't seem to care.
> 
> Not seeming to care, is difficult to assume when talking about a reptile. They have the ability to drop dead without ever 'seeming to care'.
> 
> ...



The old in the wild debates not really a debate, in fact the closer temperatures and photoperiod reflect what an animal has evolved over millions of years to exist with, will go a long way to ensure good health, and also breeding of that animal if thats a goal.


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## pinefamily (Oct 21, 2015)

We live in Adelaide, and only our hatchies get 24/7 heat. When we get our hot summer temps, all heating goes off during the day, except for the monitors, who don't seem to mind.


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## kingofnobbys (Oct 21, 2015)

Ditch the red heat bulb.

If it gets quite cool overnight a CHE on a thermostat is sufficient.

All my lizards have 7W and 5W heatmats sandwiched between 2 layers of ceramic tiles , on a thermostat placed under their hides , run 24/7 , so they can retire to a warm place for a nap and they often choose to sleep there too. I don't think it can hurt to give access to a warm place at night for any lizard. All mine love their's.
I expect snakes would probably like a warm place to curl up and nap or too , but this is speculation only.


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## Raebiez (Oct 22, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your help!


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## Sdaji (Oct 24, 2015)

cement said:


> The old in the wild debates not really a debate, in fact the closer temperatures and photoperiod reflect what an animal has evolved over millions of years to exist with, will go a long way to ensure good health, and also breeding of that animal if thats a goal.



That's actually a myth. Animals in the wild experiencing natural temperatures often freeze or cook to death, or are stressed by the extreme weather. You're probably familiar with cases of larger than usual numbers of snakes being found dead or in desperate conditions during heat waves, and death rates of most species spike during winters. The natural environment exists, and animals evolve to cope with it. The natural conditions are not designed to be perfect for the animal, and evolution is not capable of making any species perfectly suited to its environment (though people often wrongly describe them that way). We are capable of giving them much better conditions in captivity, which is why captive snakes live longer, reproduce more successfully, and are healthier (on average of course - some people do a dismal job, but even most people with little clue still beat mother nature).

It is the same with most aspects of wild environments. They are by no means the ideal environment for the species which live in them. Even photoperiod can be improved on slightly.


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## cement (Oct 24, 2015)

Yes I agree there are extreme weather moments, if an animal can't find suitable shelter or food they perish. but you didn't mention that,, along with the "bust" scenario, there is also "boom" times, in which a species can find itself doing very well. You can't tell me that conditions that make a species thrive shouldn't be replicated in captivity. 
I disagree with your statement about "evolution is not capable of making any species perfectly suited to its environment", ... the longer a species has survived for unchanged, has to be as close as it can get. Every species on this planet has evolved specifically to fill a niche role in a particular environment, of course they have their parameters, and yeah nothing lives forever, but if a species wasn't 'perfectly' suited it wouldn't bounce back after ....say, laws are changed to protect them.

The main reason our pets live longer in captivity is the same reason we as a species now live longer. Protection against heat or cold, and removal of detrimental parasitic or invasive micro-organisms, bacterias and viruses. Add quality, nourishing food, the right amount of excercise and rest, good genes and only stress that is easily coped with, and you have a perfect specimen.... well, as perfect as can be. But nothing lasts forever because this world is constantly changing. 

If my dogs nuts aren't the perfect evironment for fleas, how come they do so well there? 

Its also perspective,.. if your glass is half empty, nothing is perfect


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## kingofnobbys (Oct 24, 2015)

In the wild , reptiles , like all other animals , will seek out more comfortable places , if it's getting too cold, they'll seek out rocky areas (will hold the heat) and will shelter in cracks, crevaces, caves, or if they can't access these, they'll burrow into the sand, dirt, litter and be somewhat insulated from extremes of cold overnight. You'll not find beardies sleeping in places exposed to frosty conditions.

Similar in extremely hot days, unless they are forced to hunt, they'll stay somewhere that's protected from the worste of the heat.

Hence my personal reasoning behind providing overnight heating for my pet lizards. Heatpads are cheap to operate , reliable and relatively safe if they are controlled by a thermostat.


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## GBWhite (Oct 25, 2015)

It's a very interesting topic. I have a recollection of reading a paper by John Webb (when he was still a student of Rick Shine's) of a study he conducted in both a controlled environment and an outdoor environment to establish how wild snakes maintain body heat during the night and from memory the results showed wild snakes kept in an outdoor pit only lost a degree or two with no ill effect. I'll try and find it and post it up when I have a bit more time.

On another note I remember one spring finding a Water Dragon in a pond just after dawn one morning that was iced over in the Nymboida River (located west of Dorrigo in the New England Ranges of NSW). It was quite obvious that the lizard had spent the night in the pond. I had to crack the ice to remove it and at first thought it was dead. I placed it on a rock in the sun and within about ten minutes it became active and wandered off. It just goes to show that these lizards are quite capable of withstanding very cold conditions.

I'll add that i keep my Water Dragons in an outdoor pit and it is not unusual for them to overnight in their pond even when the temperatures get very, very low.

George.


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## pinefamily (Oct 25, 2015)

Our Mertens' water monitors are currently in in indoor enclosures, and it is not unusual for them to spend the night in the water either, even in the colder months.


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## kingofnobbys (Oct 25, 2015)

in the 2 examples given by gbw and pf , being in the water may actually be warmest place under frosty conditions , that is the air temp may well be several oC colder that in the pond which , unless the river or pond froze solid (which is unlikely here in Australia).

A few anicodotal examples do not make for a good reason for a rule.


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## GBWhite (Oct 25, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> in the 2 examples given by gbw and pf , being in the water may actually be warmest place under frosty conditions , that is the air temp may well be several oC colder that in the pond which , unless the river or pond froze solid (which is unlikely here in Australia).
> 
> A few anicodotal examples do not make for a good reason for a rule.



I don't see where I stated it was a rule nor do I read that in the pinefamly's post. Both are observations.

Granted that the water temp may have been slightly warmer than the air temp, however; In my case, given that both the wild WD and my captive animals had the choice of sheltering under ground, in hollows or amongst rocks where they could have remained much warmer I find it odd that they would choose to spend the night in such very cold water. In addition, as I stated it demonstrates that these lizards can tolerate night time temperatures well below that of what some are kept in captivity.


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## pinefamily (Oct 25, 2015)

Just as there is no evidence, other than some anecdotal examples, for maintaining heat overnight, apart from hatchling pythons, or juvenile lizards where the overnight temp gets down to near zero.


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## Sdaji (Oct 25, 2015)

cement said:


> Yes I agree there are extreme weather moments, if an animal can't find suitable shelter or food they perish. but you didn't mention that,, along with the "bust" scenario, there is also "boom" times, in which a species can find itself doing very well. You can't tell me that conditions that make a species thrive shouldn't be replicated in captivity.
> I disagree with your statement about "evolution is not capable of making any species perfectly suited to its environment", ... the longer a species has survived for unchanged, has to be as close as it can get. Every species on this planet has evolved specifically to fill a niche role in a particular environment, of course they have their parameters, and yeah nothing lives forever, but if a species wasn't 'perfectly' suited it wouldn't bounce back after ....say, laws are changed to protect them.
> 
> The main reason our pets live longer in captivity is the same reason we as a species now live longer. Protection against heat or cold, and removal of detrimental parasitic or invasive micro-organisms, bacterias and viruses. Add quality, nourishing food, the right amount of excercise and rest, good genes and only stress that is easily coped with, and you have a perfect specimen.... well, as perfect as can be. But nothing lasts forever because this world is constantly changing.
> ...



It's not just in extreme or unusual conditions that animals have to cope with unfavourable conditions in the wild. Not by any means. If you were to, for example, stick a heated hide box out in a forest, many animals, especially reptiles would use it in the cooler months (no one would argue that) and they would benefit from it. Polar bears *can* (usually) survive the long winter by hibernating, but it's a huge struggle and they do better without it.

A species may exist unchanged for a long period of time (though that very rarely happens), but even then, it is not because it has become perfect, it is just because it has become as good as it can get, and there will always be changes going on even if you can't see them.

You yourself say that they live longer in captivity due to protection from heat and cold  We are capable of giving them a superior thermal environment to nature. You also point out that we protect them from pathogens and parasites, which are part of the natural environment. Just like unfavourable weather, food shortages, etc., parasites and pathogens are part of the natural environment which animals *cope* with, not an environment which is perfect for them.

Using your flea example, they live well on dogs because they have evolved to, but that doesn't at all make a dog the perfect environment for fleas. Dogs have various methods of fighting fleas, ranging from scratching and biting through to chemical properties in their blood which make it as toxic as possible for the fleas, and properties of the skin and fur to make it less hospitable to the fleas. The fleas do quite well, but if you were to stop the dog from scratching, biting, rolling around in mud, etc., they would do better. If you were to genetically alter the dog to remove the nasty properties from the blood, the fleas would thrive much more, breeding faster, growing better, and generally being more successful. Even the thermal environment on a dog is not perfect for fleas - a dog runs around in a range of temperatures, and the fleas would be happiest with a constant temperature of (I'd have to look it up and this is only an estimate) about 32 degrees. They must *endure* the natural range of 10 to 40+ degrees, which is natural but gives them no benefit, only harm.

It's not about glass half empty or half full  If something is perfect, nothing can be better. If we kid ourselves into thinking we have found perfection we will never strive for anything better  Your glass is half full, but if you think it's absolutely full so you'll never put anything more in it!

Natural environments are never, ever perfect for any animal. If you study ecology you'll very clearly see that


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## Wokka (Oct 25, 2015)

In the wild nature allows the strongest to survive, and the weak perish. In captivity we expect everything to survive often intervene to save weak and imperfect animals that would normally perish in the wild. In captivity we take the environmental choice from the animals and chose the conditions in which they must live. If the captive cage is in a stable environment, such as an insulated house in Brisbane, then most pythons would be fine without heat at night. If the captive cage is in a tin shed in Brisbane, then it will have little thermal mass nor insulation and so experience the extremes of the environment, and I would expect the python inhabitant's days are numbered. There will always be individual animals that can survive extreme environments better but, when we keep every animal alive in captivity over time we are perpetuating the weaker animals, which would normally perish it the wild.


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## cement (Oct 25, 2015)

Sdaji said:


> A species may exist unchanged for a long period of time (though that very rarely happens), but even then, it is not because it has become perfect, it is just because it has become as good as it can get, and there will always be changes going on even if you can't see them.
> 
> You yourself say that they live longer in captivity due to protection from heat and cold  We are capable of giving them a superior thermal environment to nature. You also point out that we protect them from pathogens and parasites, which are part of the natural environment. Just like unfavourable weather, food shortages, etc., parasites and pathogens are part of the natural environment which animals *cope* with, not an environment which is perfect for them.
> 
> ...




Well you've re written basically just what i am saying.

Like I said, there are parameters in which every species lives between, add extreme this or that (which goes outside those parameters),, and it suffers, which allows further invasion or infection from other species that prefer the environment of said species now it has lower immunity function. Makes it closer to perfect for them but less perfect for the host:cry:

I'm not saying that living in the wild is a perfect scenario, but then again maybe it is...
What you are saying Sdaji, is that there is adversary everywhere (and you are correct), and what i am trying to say, is that I do agree, but even in a constantly changeing world, there are perfect moments. For example "boom" times where the flea lands on a dog that has only three legs and a bucket on its head.  

Like I said, natural things can be as close to perfect as they can get. 
Getting back to the original post I made though... to the OP, research the natural conditions for the species you want to keep, and use that as a basis for your methods. Don't keep a diamond python like you would keep a north western!

I've spent enough of my half a century on this planet in the wild, to know that natural environments aren't perfect, don't need a degree to work that out, in fact i would rather find out for myself by putting myself in that situation then being told the answer by a professor.
Thats why my glass will be forever half full  with plenty of room for more.


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## kingofnobbys (Oct 25, 2015)

pinefamily said:


> Just as there is no evidence, other than some anecdotal examples, for maintaining heat overnight, apart from hatchling pythons, or juvenile lizards where the overnight temp gets down to near zero.



Granted, it really comes down a choice for the keeper/carer. My pets lizards are very spoilt ( I guess ). 

I feed my reptiles their insects in the evening, just before our diner time, it probably helps them to have access to a cozy warm place to sleep , especially if it's cool overnight, they can process the proteins and fats from their live insects better, even though their lights are timed to switch off automatically at 9:30pm Standard Time (giving them at least 2 - 3 hours of radiant heat and UV for metabolisation needs after feeding.

I have observed they (my pet skinks and dragons) often sleep ontop of their hides or in the cool side of their enclosures in summer, whereas they will make more regular use of the cozy heated hide when it's cooler at night time. 

Also , as Wokka stated , as consequence of many generations of inbreeding and their very restricted captive bred genetics , and human intervention (to keep pets and breeders alive), captive bred reptiles tend to be weaker than their wild cousins, and so probably need all the help we can give them , whereas a wild reptile might brush off extremes , a captive breed reptile is more likely to become ill if exposed to the same conditions.


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## Wally (Oct 25, 2015)

Wild/captive.

There are no two arguments that can reconcile both.


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 25, 2015)

@Raebiez. The *temperatures* IN YOUR enclosure are what are relevant. If you want to put a figure on it, unless your temps are consistently dropping down to less than 20[SUP]o[/SUP]C, it is not necessary to provide night time heating. A regular overnight drop of 5 degrees or so in floor temps is not a problem and, as Sdaji stated, can help to reinforce the day/night cycle.

When referring to the temperatures that reptiles experience in the wild, it is important to bear in mind that they thermoregulate behaviourally (as kingofnobbys pointed out through examples). Snakes can and do survive in places where daytime temps can, and do, get well over 40[SUP]o[/SUP]C, or where they drop to sub-zero at night. Any snake exposed directly to these temperatures would quickly die. Clearly, one needs to be careful about not making false assumptions when drawing such parallels.

As for evolutionary fitness... the simple fact is many more young are produced than can possibly survive. Take a pair of geckos that produce two clutches a year for three years – that’s very low fecundity. To maintain the population (replacing the adults) only 2 out of the 12 offspring can survive. To put it another way, over 80% must die. Now do the same arithmetic with pythons which can produce hundreds of offspring during their breeding years. There is a very real struggle to survive in the natural world. 

It is not all about the ‘weak’ and ‘strong’. There is a large element of luck involved here and many fit (‘strong’) animals perish through no fault of their own. For example, an unfit (‘weak’) animal lucky enough to locate a meal, but unable to capture it, will perish. Fit animals unlucky enough not to locate a meal (which they could have captured) will also perish. If a captive born animal thrives in captivity then there is a very good likelihood that, if it had luck on its side, it would do likewise in the wild.


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## kittycat17 (Oct 26, 2015)

Personally I don't know if it's 'correct' 
All my animals are on thermostats so if it's hot during the day heating is turned off 

I do heat at night but drop it down. 
In winter adults get dropped down lower to cool them, while they still get daytime heat because a good chunk of my animals still eat while being cooled (well the females anyway lol) 

I keep at 31 during the day 
Around 26 at night for animals over 1 year 
Under that and there on 24/7 heat unless it's to hot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dopamel (Oct 31, 2015)

i only heat at night with midnight lighting if my reptiles have a respiratory infection, as the local reptile shop keeper calls it "melting the bacteria away"


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