# Your exotic experience



## Cold-B-Hearts (Jun 13, 2014)

So as we know corn snakes are bred and kept throughout Australia. I have even heard stories of wild populations in existence, even stumbled across a video of a NSW snake catcher who caught a wild one. 


I have even been offered red tailed boas and been supplied with pictures.


So share your expertise about wild populations, the different species here, what you have been offered etc. 
Not a Q&A thread more of "tell us your experience" thread.

-Liam


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## fallenfeathers (Jun 13, 2014)

My brother knew someone who had a Japanese Soft Shell Turtle & various Chameleons. I've been offered Red Eared Sliders & Corn Snakes

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My brother knew someone who had a Japanese Soft Shell Turtle & various Chameleons. I've been offered Red Eared Sliders & Corn Snakes


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## NickGeee (Jun 13, 2014)

Red eared sliders actually occour in aus, they are considered pest


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## hulloosenator (Jun 13, 2014)

No experience with Exotics at all...... never seen one or heard of one in the country. Maybe if there was any around here , the bloody cats or foxes or pigs or camels or goats have eaten them all because they cant catch the sparrows or starlings or mynah birds that have displaced all out natives. Not to mention the cane toad. So , i think that the damage has already been done long ago and any exotic would be welcome i reckon.


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## champagne (Jun 13, 2014)

I've seen heaps of exotics for sale... Jags, zebras, leatherback bearded dragons, high yellow gtp, albino Bhps. The list goes on and on but the corn snakes and boas that have been here since the 80's pose the real risk.


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## Gizmo101 (Jun 13, 2014)

I was once offered a breeding pair of South American corn snakes and a king snake, but that's the only experience I've had. 


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## JasonL (Jun 14, 2014)

If it is being bred, it is available here if you know the right people.


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## marcus0002 (Jun 14, 2014)

I saw a leopard tortoise for sale on gumtree last month

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## bigg_bunny (Jun 14, 2014)

Corn snakes are famous for their ability to escape from anything. Corn snakes are about the only reptile that I consider could potentially be a threat to Australian native fauna and become established in the Australian environment, Think about it. They can hibernate , swim , climb , eat anything they can overpower [ mammals , birds , reptiles ] , adapt to virtually any ecosystem we have [ especially temperate or subtropical ] , breed prolifically and live a long time. They truly are a threat. There was a rumour that a colony was established in the Hawkesbury region a while ago. I could believe it.

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## PythonLegs (Jun 14, 2014)

Most of these stories start of with 'my mate once saw' or 'I saw pics of'...there's not as many exotics around as the stories make out..most of the exotics you hear about are usually owned by the same guy whose Nigerian uncle desperately needs money for an operation..


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Jun 14, 2014)

id like to go to these regions with wild populations and attempt to find them.. I've heard that the red sliders are a pest, has anyone got any photos of them (here in aus).


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## RoryBreaker (Jun 14, 2014)

If there was a State of Origin comp for exotic herps, NSW would win 10 in a row!


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## Blinky (Jun 14, 2014)

Sydney is flooded with exotics ranging from cheap ball pythons to expensive tree monitors


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## bigg_bunny (Jun 14, 2014)

I can tell you with certainty that there are a lot of exotics out there , mainly kept by non-herp enthusiasts. I have been involved with quite a few cases of wild Corn snakes appearing in suburban backyards. Maybe they don`t pose a threat to the environment but why take the chance. I seem to recall they said the same thing about rabbits and cane toads. By the way , anyone who releases exotic reptiles into the wild rather than lose them is not only a moron but also criminally negligent. Attitudes like that endanger the environment. Grow a brain !!


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## champagne (Jun 14, 2014)

bigg_bunny said:


> I can tell you with certainty that there are a lot of exotics out there , mainly kept by non-herp enthusiasts. I have been involved with quite a few cases of wild Corn snakes appearing in suburban backyards. Maybe they don`t pose a threat to the environment but why take the chance. I seem to recall they said the same thing about rabbits and cane toads. By the way , anyone who releases exotic reptiles into the wild rather than lose them is not only a moron but also criminally negligent. Attitudes like that endanger the environment. Grow a brain !!



How can you compare corns to a cane toad or rabbit? Corns snake have been bred here since the 80's and have they become a pest? The people that keep these corn snakes see them as pets not wildlife and would rather see it live then killed, how is an attitude like that endangering the environment? Habitat destruction is the biggest threat to the environment... Might want to look at growing a brain yourself and learn the really problems facing our wildlife.


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## longqi (Jun 15, 2014)

champagne said:


> How can you compare corns to a cane toad or rabbit? Corns snake have been bred here since the 80's and have they become a pest? The people that keep these corn snakes see them as pets not wildlife and would rather see it live then killed, how is an attitude like that endangering the environment? Habitat destruction is the biggest threat to the environment... Might want to look at growing a brain yourself and learn the really problems facing our wildlife.



We had a crazy expat snake collector in Bali release his pets when he went home
One western timber rattler was killed by a dog
We were called to relocate another one
;It ended up in a venom lab]
We got 2 of the ball pythons 1 corn snake and 3 king snakes
2 green and 1 yellow anaconda now live in Sanur fenced into an old swimming pool

Dumping exotics is cruel, stupid, and could result in deaths


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## CrazyNut (Jun 15, 2014)

I have been offered ball pythons a couple of times. I see a lot of chameleons, corns, tortoises and few other for sale on occasion, mind you I haven't seen anything for a while, probably because I don't really pay attention lol. Surprised someone doesn't t jump on them considering they jumped on someone who put an add on gumtree "trade, cat for iPad"....


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## champagne (Jun 15, 2014)

longqi said:


> We had a crazy expat snake collector in Bali release his pets when he went home
> One western timber rattler was killed by a dog
> We were called to relocate another one
> ;It ended up in a venom lab]
> ...



Yes and if there was a legal way that they didn't have to be destroyed I'm sure less people would.


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## Jacknife (Jun 15, 2014)

In the 15+ years I've owned reptiles I've never once seen, known or been offered an exotic of any kind, or heard mention of people who do.
Guess people down in Melbourne have a bit more scruples than those further north.

Not suggesting they're not here, but that I feel numbers are grossly inflated with all the 'my mate knows' and 'I heard' figures...


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## RoryBreaker (Jun 15, 2014)

Jacknife said:


> In the 15+ years I've owned reptiles I've never once seen, known or been offered an exotic of any kind, or heard mention of people who do.
> Guess people down in Melbourne have a bit more scruples than those further north.
> 
> Not suggesting they're not here, but that I feel numbers are grossly inflated with all the 'my mate knows' and 'I heard' figures...



Victoria is famous for the VENOMOUS exotic reptile bust of the 7th of March 2001. This seizure of snakes prompted Peter Mirtschin of Venom Supplies to host a conference to discuss the matter in October of 2001. The list of confiscated exotic vens was impressive.


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## champagne (Jun 15, 2014)

One of the largest smuggled collections of Australian of morph is in Victoria owned by a convicted reptile smuggler...

and can tell you for a fact that a pair of $60,000 high yellow canary GTPs came from Victoria but of course they weren't smuggled recently.


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## beastcreature (Jun 15, 2014)

I've never been offered an exotic with the accompaniment of breeder information but I haven't been offered a native either - each time I've acquired a new snake I've actively sought one out. 

Given that these animals are illegal & likely to be reported if advertised publicly, a lack of advertisements doesn't disprove that they're here in large numbers, nor does second hand information prove that they are. You know what they say about assuming.


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## Native_EWD (Jun 15, 2014)

I come across a dead yellow bellied slider in Parramatta river few years back, wedged between a rock and a tyre it had drowned.

Who knows what else is lurking in that river!


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## Chris1 (Jun 15, 2014)

My first exposure to exotics was the day i picked up my very first beardies from a a guys house, (not the person who had bred the beardies, just the transaction happened at his place) he had a few cornsnakes, boas, a bucket load of natives, but most memorable of all was that he let me feed his chameolean,...that was unbelieveably cool!! a few years later he offered me the chameolean, but by that time i knew it was illegal and if i got busted id lose my beloved natives so i said no.

Second experience was after i 'won' an auction on ebay for a 4 foot mesh lid that was the perfect size for a fish tank i had,...i turned up to the guys house, he invited me in, first thing i saw was a massive enclosure with a boa and 3 leopard geckos (in a different enclosure ofcourse),...i mentioned that it was kinda crazy inviting people in with illegal reptiles in the house, but i wouldnt tell anyone if he let me hold a leopard gecko.  He said most people dont know they're illegal and went on to tell me he worked in a petshop and could get me any exotics i could possibly want. (and ofcourse i got to hold a leopard gecko)

Then a girl i knew bought some red eared sliders for $200 each from a pet shop on the central coast,...

4th experience was a guy offering me a really nice enclosure for $200,...but i could only have it if i took the red tailed boa that was living in it,....

and 5th was another leopard gecko i was offered not so long ago. 

Thats in about 11 years of reptile keeping. I dont know if thats alot of exotics encounters or not, but theyre definately out there.


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## Channaz (Jun 15, 2014)

RoryBreaker said:


> Victoria is famous for the VENOMOUS exotic reptile bust of the 7th of March 2001. This seizure of snakes prompted Peter Mirtschin of Venom Supplies to host a conference to discuss the matter in October of 2001. The list of confiscated exotic vens was impressive.



Can you give any more details, Rory? Did anything specifically prompt the crackdown? What came out of the conference?


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## Jacknife (Jun 15, 2014)

RoryBreaker said:


> Victoria is famous for the VENOMOUS exotic reptile bust of the 7th of March 2001. This seizure of snakes prompted Peter Mirtschin of Venom Supplies to host a conference to discuss the matter in October of 2001. The list of confiscated exotic vens was impressive.



Yeah I remember that being all over the place when I first started out.
Vic has had some big moments with exotics no dount, but my statement was merely that they seem to be less prevalent here than in the northern states...


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## RoryBreaker (Jun 15, 2014)

Hannaz said:


> Can you give any more details, Rory? Did anything specifically prompt the crackdown? What came out of the conference?



I'll let you google the specifics, its old news and not my story to tell and I only mentioned it to make my point.

It wasn't a crackdown but the animals were discovered while police were investigating a different matter.

What came out of the conference you ask?
Umm... we were told at the conference's conclusion that a media statement was to be released. I never saw it. Professor Mark Hutchinson's talk at the conference I remember best. It was titled, "Tea leaves and tumbling dice." Referring to what actual numbers are required to start and sustain a wild population of exotic reptiles and the rare probability of something of that nature actually occurring.

Subsequent conferences have been held over the years but all of them have not been open for the general public, but for only government authorities, academics in relevant fields etc...
The late Tim Nias formerly of Venom Supplies used to keep me up to date.

Cheers


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## -Peter (Jun 15, 2014)

I miss Tim




RoryBreaker said:


> I'll let you google the specifics, its old news and not my story to tell and I only mentioned it to make my point.
> 
> It wasn't a crackdown but the animals were discovered while police were investigating a different matter.
> 
> ...


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## Channaz (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks, Rory.

Sounds like it was an interesting time for herp keepers back then... although aren't all times like that? lol

I did try some google searches but couldn't find any more detail.


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## champagne (Jun 16, 2014)

Jacknife said:


> Yeah I remember that being all over the place when I first started out.
> Vic has had some big moments with exotics no dount, but my statement was merely that they seem to be less prevalent here than in the northern states...



Just because you personally don't know about them doesn't mean they're not kept and bred in Victoria.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jun 16, 2014)

Corns snakes were around Melbourne in private collections in the 70s.

I was called out to one in Pakenham recently


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## Jacknife (Jun 16, 2014)

Jacknife said:


> Yeah I remember that being all over the place when I first started out.
> Vic has had some big moments with exotics no dount, but my statement was merely that they seem to be *less prevalent* here than in the northern states...






champagne said:


> Just because you personally don't know about them doesn't mean they're not kept and bred in Victoria.



Please read posts before replying to them.


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## zulu (Jun 16, 2014)

champagne said:


> One of the largest smuggled collections of Australian of morph is in Victoria owned by a convicted reptile smuggler...
> 
> and can tell you for a fact that a pair of $60,000 high yellow canary GTPs came from Victoria but of course they weren't smuggled recently.


Some of australias best smugglers are from victoria ,without there efforts many of the reptiles we take for granted now would be just a picture on the internet.


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## champagne (Jun 16, 2014)

Jacknife said:


> Please read posts before replying to them.



Like I said just because you personally have not experienced exotic trade and therefor clearly have no idea on what you are talking about (as usual) doesn't mean they aren't Victoria in the same numbers...


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## ozziepythons (Jun 16, 2014)

Its nice to work with exotics legit at a zoo, not having to worry about getting busted or ever losing them.... but especially if anything health wise goes wrong you can have a vet treat it without fear of persecution or ignorance on how to treat them if that were the case. What do these keepers do if they have a sick chameleon or injured their leopard tortoise, or have a ball python with RI? Must be a lot of neglected exotics out there in Australia, wouldn't the government rather regulate those already here and have some sort of control rather than the current situation?


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## Radar (Jun 16, 2014)

I've been offered white lipped vipers, eyelash vipers, multiple different boa's and ball pythons from both interstate and locally, and about 3 years ago had a bloke living in a housing commission unit I was working outside offer to show me his boa constrictor. When I didn't believe him he brought his adult red tail boa outside and held it out over his balcony for me and all the traffic on the main road to see....


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## Rlpreston (Jun 16, 2014)

I really thought there was a logical conclusion that could be reached unanimously. Should we really open the floodgates because there's already a trickle? Just because other exotic species might not be AS bad as, for example, cane toads should we really just turn a blind eye to those ones? Just because another problem is worse doesn't make this any less of a problem.

Heart disease kills more people than cancer, we still treat both though. 

ETA - Back on the original question, apart from the odd Facebook fool who flaunts their choice to break the law (I can't for the life of me understand that!) I never see any exotic around. I don't doubt they're here in Vic, but maybe Victorians in general are clever enough to keep the crime quiet.


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## champagne (Jun 17, 2014)

ozziepythons said:


> Its nice to work with exotics legit at a zoo, not having to worry about getting busted or ever losing them.... but especially if anything health wise goes wrong you can have a vet treat it without fear of persecution or ignorance on how to treat them if that were the case. What do these keepers do if they have a sick chameleon or injured their leopard tortoise, or have a ball python with RI? Must be a lot of neglected exotics out there in Australia, wouldn't the government rather regulate those already here and have some sort of control rather than the current situation?



Vets don't care about the illegality and licensing for an animal, for example vets in queensland treat rabbits and ferrets which are illegal in queensland. As for treatments most vets have no idea when it comes to native reptiles anyway and just give a text book treatment so I'm sure you would get the same results if you took an exotic or a native but If you take a corn snake into the vet how would they know if it's on license or not? When you take your dog or cat do they ask to see your council registration?


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## Norm (Jun 17, 2014)

About 4 years ago we were house hunting and went to an open house one day, walked in and right there in the lounge room was a fish tank with a corn snake. I`m not one to dob so I pointed it out to my wife and continued to look at the house as if I`d never seen it. We didn't buy the house.


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## champagne (Jun 17, 2014)

Norm said:


> About 4 years ago we were house hunting and went to an open house one day, walked in and right there in the lounge room was a fish tank with a corn snake. I`m not one to dob so I pointed it out to my wife and continued to look at the house as if I`d never seen it. We didn't buy the house.



Norm how could you?! You do know that corn snake will either escape or be dump and then it will destroy the environment wiping out all native animals in its path!!!


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## Umbral (Jun 18, 2014)

A mate of mines cousin suicided and my mate offered me his collection and showed me pics on his phone of what there was... Mainly boas and corns, I convinced my mate to turn them in.


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## stusnake (Jun 18, 2014)

Captive exotics are nothing new in Australia as Im sure many of us would be aware. There are reports of established wild populations of red eared pond sliders in southern QLD, and have been found in ponds in centenial park in Sydney over the years. Back in early 2000 I was aware of at least 2 pet stores in Sydney that were selling red eared pond sliders and corn snakes. Only a couple of months ago there were ball pythons advertised for sale on reptiles down under, and have seen adds for other exotics on other classified sites such as gumtree, trading post, etc over the years also. Have had a member of FAWNA bring in a corn snake that was captured in a back yard in Port Macquarie for formal identification a few years back. Over the years have been offered ( but always refused despite the temptation) exotics such as corn snakes, red tail boas, chamelions and sliders.
Exotics in aus arent an urban myth. they are very much here, as to whether they are impacting our environment and harming native species is yet to be seen but the potential is always there.

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One thing I have noticed is that a few of the people I have spoken to in the past you have or had have exotics have no idea of the illegality of possessing them likewise licencing laws for natives. For herp enthusiasts many of us are aware of licencing laws or at least have some basic idea. There needs to be a way to better inform people of the owner criteria for reptiles and other animals native and exotic alike. Most people are aware that the general basics of owning a dog is registration and microchipping, and i guess this is due to it being regularly seen and heard in the public domain. Maybe this is something that could be of an advantage in the herp circle, getting more knowledge out into the public domain somehow, maybe more info/education through petshops/supplies, vets, councils, etc. Possibly another topic of agenda to through into the mix with the National body.


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## butters (Jun 23, 2014)

bigg_bunny said:


> I can tell you with certainty that there are a lot of exotics out there , mainly kept by non-herp enthusiasts. I have been involved with quite a few cases of wild Corn snakes appearing in suburban backyards. Maybe they don`t pose a threat to the environment but why take the chance. I seem to recall they said the same thing about rabbits and cane toads. By the way , anyone who releases exotic reptiles into the wild rather than lose them is not only a moron but also criminally negligent. Attitudes like that endanger the environment. Grow a brain !!



How can you compare cane toads and rabbits to exotic captive reptiles? The only real correlation is they are all exotic. Where did you hear that there was never a thought that they would become a problem? When those species were introduced it wasn't considered a problem if they did have an environmental impact particularly with regards to rabbits. We should have learnt a lesson on that one.

cane toads and rabbits introductions were sanctioned and carried out by mostly government institutions and a lot of effort was put into establishing them. We are not talking the odd escapee from hobbyists here but concerted efforts to establish them in the wild.

what makes you think they are not kept by herp enthusiasts? I would have thought they were actually kept by herp enthusiasts. Why else would someone amass a collections of exotic reptiles if they didn't like reptiles? Doesn't make sense unless it was just to make money and there are plenty of people in the native reptile,game there for the same reason. The only difference between the two is the legality of it. Central beardies on the eastern seaboard present the same if not larger threat to eastern beardies as a corn snake in the long run.


I agree with the sentiment about releasing exotics into the wild but as stated there are far larger threats to the environment than exotic reptiles held in collections. The majority of feral species in Australia were imported and introduced intentionally for one reason or another either by the government at the time or their sanctioned agencies (eg acclimation society).

I don't keep exotics purely because of the legality of it but have been offered them numerous times over the years. By far the majority have been offered from Victoria and New South Wales. IME 20 years ago Victoria used the be the main place to get them but in recent years it appears to have moved to NSW.


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## andynic07 (Jun 23, 2014)

RoryBreaker said:


> Victoria is famous for the VENOMOUS exotic reptile bust of the 7th of March 2001. This seizure of snakes prompted Peter Mirtschin of Venom Supplies to host a conference to discuss the matter in October of 2001. The list of confiscated exotic vens was impressive.


I have heard some of these stories.


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## BigWillieStyles (Jun 27, 2014)

I dont think there is any argument, they should never be kept in Australia. Our native fauna is already facing severed extinction rates due to land pressures and changes in their environment. The risk may be small, but the potential impact would be massive. 

Not to mention the moral issues relating to animal welfare. By purchasing illegal animals, you are supporting a process that has involved a complete disregard for animal welfare. People who bring animals from overseas are essentially doing it to make money, and considerations for cruelty are not even taken into account.

There have been various risk assessments completed on the accidental introduction of reptiles to Australia. Most giving a 30 percent chance of an animal being able to establish itself in the wild. For many of our native fauna such as our fragile mammals, an additional predator to the system would be the final step in their extinction. 

A few weeks ago, Victorian land managers got a scare with the Black spined Toad being found by a dog in Sunbury. This species is similar to the cane toad but can live in much more temperate climates and can produce as many as 40,000 eggs with no natural predators in Australia.


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## MathersD (Jun 29, 2014)

Boas and corns are stunners all the same .

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk


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## eipper (Jun 30, 2014)

To the doubters as to quantities..... I don't see grams of marijuana up for sale on many internet sites but i am sure people sell it.


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## moosenoose (Jun 30, 2014)

I've got a few people I know who keep Boas on International licenses. I've seen corns & other odd things in peoples collections from time to time. Not worth the hassle from my perspective, but I can understand that when these things pop up & should be euthanized why a reptile lover has a bit of a change of heart. Corns don't last long down here in a Victorian winter anyway if they've gotten out....or definitely don't last long because of feral or unrestrained domestic cats.

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I was playing with this at the Melbourne Zoo. Who wouldn't want one?  :lol:


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## Snowman (Jun 30, 2014)

Highly sort after exotics in WA would be:
GTP
Diamond pythons
Jungle's
Bredli's
Darwins
Collett's 
Tai's
etc etc


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## champagne (Jun 30, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Highly sort after exotics in WA would be:
> GTP
> Diamond pythons
> Jungle's
> ...



Now that darwins are on WA keep list, Albino Darwins are on their way but of course they will pop up from a collected wild caught pair lol.


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## Snowman (Jun 30, 2014)

champagne said:


> Now that darwins are on WA keep list, Albino Darwins are on their way but of course they will pop up from a collected wild caught pair lol.


Darwin's are increadably uncommon in the Kimberley. To the point none have been wild collected that I know of and even photos are of wild specimens are rare. They weren't recorded in Wa until the 80's or something.


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## champagne (Jun 30, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Darwin's are increadably uncommon in the Kimberley. To the point none have been wild collected that I know of and even photos are of wild specimens are rare. They weren't recorded in Wa until the 80's or something.



dave is taking orders $1000 a pair for w/c pairs


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## Snowman (Jun 30, 2014)

champagne said:


> dave is taking orders $1000 a pair for w/c pairs


Are you sure? I think he's collected bts, Pygmy, waters. But no Darwin's or RSP yet. @PilbaraPythons are you getting nwcp?


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## champagne (Jun 30, 2014)

no I don't think he has collected yet but is defiantly taking names for when he does.


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## Snowman (Jun 30, 2014)

$1000 a pair sounds ridiculously cheap!


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## champagne (Jun 30, 2014)

Snowman said:


> $1000 a pair sounds ridiculously cheap!



that's defiantly what he said I am chasing a pair of pure WA darwins.


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## Snowman (Jun 30, 2014)

champagne said:


> that's defiantly what he said I am chasing a pair of pure WA darwins.


You are aware that there is an export ban on the new additions to the WA keepers list?
darwins, waters, pygmys etc can not be sent to other states.


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## champagne (Jun 30, 2014)

Snowman said:


> You are aware that there is an export ban on the new additions to the WA keepers list?
> darwins, waters, pygmys etc can not be sent to other states.



really? that's bull.. what is there reasoning behind that?


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## Snowman (Jun 30, 2014)

champagne said:


> really? that's bull.. what is there reasoning behind that?


Less wild taking I guess. They're going to review it again in 5 years time.


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## champagne (Jun 30, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Less wild taking I guess. They're going to review it again in 5 years time.



I couldn't see a huge demand for them on the eastern states. How many people would spend $$$ on a species that we already have in the eastern states. Only a few people would be interested in forking out the money to keep them, not many sw carpets being kept over here for example.


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## Snowman (Jun 30, 2014)

champagne said:


> I couldn't see a huge demand for them on the eastern states. How many people would spend $$$ on a species that we already have in the eastern states. Only a few people would be interested in forking out the money to keep them, not many sw carpets being kept over here for example.


Wheatbelt stimi's, Pilbara womas and such proved quite popular. I have no idea how many people would want WA Darwin's. I don't make the laws... I just know what they are. 
I like the idea of wc staying in WA since we have a python import ban. I have no problem with captive bred going out though. Just means we all get a chance to keep some of the stranger specimens that are found. Once they go east we can't bring them back.


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## champagne (Jun 30, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Wheatbelt stimi's, Pilbara womas and such proved quite popular. I have no idea how many people would want WA Darwin's. I don't make the laws... I just know what they are.
> I like the idea of wc staying in WA since we have a python import ban. I have no problem with captive bred going out though. Just means we all get a chance to keep some of the stranger specimens that are found. Once they go east we can't bring them back.



yeah I could understand that. hopefully it will change in 5 years when they are more available in WA


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## Lawra (Jun 30, 2014)

moosenoose said:


> I've got a few people I know who keep Boas on International licenses. I've seen corns & other odd things in peoples collections from time to time. Not worth the hassle from my perspective, but I can understand that when these things pop up & should be euthanized why a reptile lover has a bit of a change of heart. Corns don't last long down here in a Victorian winter anyway if they've gotten out....or definitely don't last long because of feral or unrestrained domestic cats.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I was playing with this at the Melbourne Zoo. Who wouldn't want one?  :lol:


how does one go about getting an international license???


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## MesseNoire (Jul 1, 2014)

Lawra said:


> how does one go about getting an international license???



You make one!


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## moosenoose (Jul 1, 2014)

I'd imagine they are just about impossible now Lawra. 

They were done prior to the first amnesty I believe (maybe someone with one can elaborate further?). So people squealing that just having an exotic risks native wildlife, and what if it escapes, and...OMG etc etc etc...need to understand that like exotic birds, fish, cats, dogs & virtually every farm animal out there, it's not the horror story people make it out to be. Just like you require an advanced license to keep venomous snakes, you should be able to apply for an exotics license. You can't tell me for one second that people aren't already out there keeping native animals without a license...those people are committing a crime even though they have an avenue to do it legally. At least give people a legal option, and with that some control by authorities.

*** sorry to be a little off topic


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 16, 2014)

There is really only one reason why we can't legally keep some exotics. It's not because we're not big enough of a group to count either!

The green movement in Australia is enormous and will likely hammer even the slightest attempt to decriminalize exotics in Australia. This, of course, has nothing to do with the relatively minor threat posed even by corn snakes, which admittedly would pose some kind of environmental threat, even if it isn't any worse than native reptiles being released/escaped outside of their local range which it likely is not.

I would have no problem with people keeping corns provided they can provide they have experience keeping natives and have appropriate enclosures set up for their husbandry.

There are some large breeders in Australia who would like to keep exotics, but the number of large breeders who wouldn't want exotics are even larger - because they make more money and probably more friends in high places, so to speak. And the large breeders have large amounts of money to rig the committees and maintain the status quo. Those with the most capital will ensure they protect that capital, right?

Remember in 2001 there was a scare about IBD. We were on the verge of exotics being legalized after a "second" amnesty. The scare about IBD was a bunch of crap and everyone I talk to knows it was. The "second" amnesty went POOF and was delayed into 2004 when the amnesty was one where the animals were handed in and couldn't be kept.

Those behind the ban will come up with any argument they can use to further their own interests. If it isn't breeders it would be government department heads. Either way it comes down to the mighty ledger sheet, it's really all about money. Whether their arguments be disease or environmental threat. The fact of the matter is that there are far, far, far, bigger threats to our quarantine status and our environment than a small handful of people keeping corn snakes legally!

I used to be in favor of exotics, then I was opposed, then I had some revelations. Hell, some names were mentioned that I won't discuss for fear of personal safety. This is Australia and you're basically hosed if you attempt to bring down any corruption. But there is definitely corruption behind the exotics saga, make no mistake about it.

I wish I could say it wasn't true, but unfortunately it is true, and nothing anyone here says is going to change anything.

The sad part is that we could have flipped this nonsense on it's head, but I think we've missed the boat on that one. Maybe for a long time...hell, maybe even for good.
Yeah, I know. What idiots.

The same reason why exotics are banned is probably almost running parallel to the reason why cannabis is banned.
Someone, somewhere, will be making a lot of money, or a career, from the very fact that whatever happens to be illegal, stays illegal.

Hoteliers and beer breweries do not want cannabis legalized, neither do big pharmaceutical companies. Cannabis would cut into their market.
One could logically say the same thing about those in the current market in Australia. Exotics would slice into their market like a knife through warm butter.

Sad but true. It is what it is. C'est La Vie. End of discussion.


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 17, 2014)

benjamind2010,, your post is basically nonsense, a conspiracy theorist's conspiracy theory. Exotic reptiles in Australia were NEVER "on the verge of being legalised," the amnesty in 1997 or whenever it was, where some NSW keepers were allowed to keep their exotics was a one-off, never to be repeated exercise, and NSW copped a lot of flak from the Commonwealth for allowing it to happen. The Commonwealth controls and manages the import and keeping of exotic (non-domestic) species in this country, and imports of exotics, as well as movement of them between facilities in this country are also tightly controlled by the Commonwealth.

There are obvious examples of why adding more exotic species to the list of whatever is already here is a bad idea. Even zoos and scientific facilities have to go through very convoluted protocols to bring new species into Australia, and all proposals are subject to a long list of tests for safety, suitability, need and pest potential. The Commonwealth does not believe (and it's obvious why) that private keepers will offer secure accommodation for exotic pets of many species, and on past evidence of escapes, thefts etc, it's easy to understand why. I can't, and you can't, benjamind2010, make any assessment of the pest potential of any exotic species in this country. History should tell us in no uncertain terms that erring on the side of caution is the wiser path.

To suggest that the ban on exotics (which you seem to think are capable of little harm) is a result of conspiring vested financial interests is just plain claptrap. Biosecurity is foremost here, plain & simple.

Jamie


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## benjamind2010 (Oct 17, 2014)

Hey Jamie, I agree with 99% of what you said.

I wasn't saying exotics were not capable of harm, I was pointing out that the harm they would cause would be relative to other environmental threats.
Yes, the threats could be serious. Nobody really knows, not even the experts.

But I wish that were the true reason. I know otherwise. This revelation was only recent, of course. Whoever told me could be talking nonsense, but I generally take in all information I have, and make a judgement on that, and if possible I try to work out everything before coming to any conclusion. The fact that you can keep dogs and cats and exotic birds, fish, etc. is one of many aspects of information I use to make a determination.

I prefer to keep natives anyway. I find my womas to beat corns in almost every way...and I've kept corns before, back in 1999-2002, but frankly I would find them a bit mundane nowadays considering I've got RSPs, womas, and blonde spotteds.


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## apprenticegnome (Oct 17, 2014)

I look at the problems exotics cause in the United States and am glad we have learnt some lessons from our past. Promote what we have as we really do have one of the largest array of reptiles on the planet. The exotic ban might be seen by some as a parallel to the cannabis ban but again there are strong arguments why it is so but that is best left for another thread.


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## champagne (Oct 25, 2014)

I think there should be a legal way to import australian natives back into australia. That way the morphs that pop up overseas (which always turn up here) are correctly quarantined.


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## longqi (Oct 25, 2014)

Maybe you could have these





fairly harmless
but once that precedent was set
you would end up with these too


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## GBWhite (Oct 25, 2014)

Longqi's simple illustration with his pics and Jamie's posts have hit the nail fair square on the head.

I've been around this game for a long time and never heard of a private keeper holding an "International license" to keep exotic reptiles. That being said I am also very aware there is a select group of underground keepers in Australia that illegally hold and trade in exotics (including dangerous vens). Benjamind 2010's admission to keeping corns is testament to that.

As for conspiracy theories, I'm totally in agreement with Jamie's comment that it is "claptrap". There may be some merit with the comment that corruption may still be involved in getting exotics into the country these days but my understanding is that those that currently possess them trade in the sale of their offspring.

Hoser's book, "Smuggled" gives one an understanding of how the corruptive train ran in Australia in the early days of the hobby but just as the rise of the www has provided an easy avenue for international communication between hobbyists, it has also provided the opportunity for those wishing to import or export herps to conspire and collude to get them in and out of the country without the need to pass a graft to corrupt officials.

It would be like opening a can of worms for any federal government to even consider allowing the import of exotic reptiles. Before you know it there would be all sorts of idiots wanting to import all types of exotics animals not just reptiles. If they were to set an example by allowing this how could they justify not permitting the general public to import other animals?

I'd like to have exotics such as Boomslangs, Mambas, Cobras, Eyelash, Rhino and Asian tree vipers but accept and understand the reason that it won't happen and remain content in keeping our native species. 

George.


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 25, 2014)

I'm with George all the way! I too would love to have some exotics - some of the vipers, chameleons, tortoises and other tropical stuff, but it's not going to happen.

Benjamind2010, I apologise for sounding so aggressive in my post addressing yours (just re-read it and it sounds awful!). But like George, I've been around reptiles, keepers and bureaucrats for several decades (my work brought me into close contact with decision makers during the rise in popularity of reptile keeping in the past 30 years) and I know that there never has been any consideration given to legalising the import or keeping of exotic reptiles by private keepers. I think my disappointment regarding this relates mostly to seeking different challenges with more delicate species - most Aussie herps are easy to keep, and that's great for the vast majority of "pet" keepers, but for someone like me it's frustrating because I like technical challenges, but that's just the way it is, and I'm happy to "suck it up" as they say. There are still a few keepers in NSW (& Vic?) who have exotics on licence dating from the 1997 amnesty, but they are on sunset clauses, may not be bred or passed on to others, and the licences extinguish once the animal/s die. One I know of has an old female Boa, and there are a few others.

Jamie


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## Thyla (Oct 25, 2014)

longqi said:


> Maybe you could have these
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't say no to that!

Not to sure about that snake though...


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## getarealdog (Oct 25, 2014)

was waiting for it!


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 25, 2014)

Cracker of a KC longqi !

Jamie


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## mr_snake (Oct 25, 2014)

Hi guys, 
I'm not from Australia, but for what I've been reading in this thread, I see that you are not allowed to keep non-native species? I always thought you were lucky bcause you could own native and non-native species, and now I see I was wrong.
In spain, for example, it's just the opposite, you can have non-native species but not a native one as they are afraid of spoliation of the wildlife.


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## Madmick149 (Nov 4, 2014)

Why would anyone want an exotic anyways we have some of the nicest natives found anywhere. And why risk damaging our own wildlife by importing. while the risk might be low it's not worth it have a look at past history carp foxes toads crown of thorns in Australia and look at the problems they have is the us from burmese pythons. 
Bottom line is it worth the risk no matter how remote it is


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## Shotta (Nov 4, 2014)

i know of people that have cornsnakes,even have pics of the ones sent to me by "breeders" around kmpsy area..tried to sell me one for 550!!! lol would rather buy a nice carpet with that money or even an enclosure, i'll se if i can get the pics up


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## Swampdonkey (Dec 5, 2014)

The Adelaide zoo has a corn snake which they use for education which was confiscated in Adelaide


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## arevenant (Dec 5, 2014)

Had my first ever encounter with an exotic owner(ex) in over ten years of keeping the other week!
He bought a Daimond off me and was telling me how several years back before he was aware they were illegal, he was busted in Townsville by DEHP with two Red Tail Boas and a Constricter.
Got slapped with a monster fine, had his collection taken and forbidden to own natives in QLD again.


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