# Field Study - Boyd’s Forest Dragon



## SofieB (Oct 19, 2011)

Hi guys,
I’m doing my PhD on Boyd’s Forest Dragon (_Hypsilurus boydii_) and I’m about to start my field work. I would like to know where people have found or caught Boyd’s Dragons in the Wet Tropics and how many individuals you saw at each of these places (at any one time). I would like to have sites from North to South and I would like to sample at least 10 dragons from each site. Thanks, any help would be most appreciated.


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

Sofie, could you tell us what kind of research you're doing? Does it involve any experimental stuff?


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## longqi (Oct 19, 2011)

There are plenty of places you can observe them
But exactly what so you mean by 'sample' them??


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 19, 2011)

But I am curious about the sampling too - do you mean toe clipping or other means of marking them for identification?

Jamie



PythonLegs said:


> deleted



Oh good grief... get a life you guys - unbeknownst to you there are lots of people doing legit work with reptiles in this country... not everyone thinks like you.

Jamie


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## SofieB (Oct 19, 2011)

At this point I will be collecting DNA samples either by buccal or blood samples (2 drops of blood by nail clipping - not toe clipping) and conducting spool-and-line tracking (I have ethics approval). The dragons will not leave the forest. No behavioural or chemical experiments.


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## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

Or perhaps a genetic study with a small tissue sample or something similar, I'm very interested to know the subject of the study, PhD studies are always good topics


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 19, 2011)

Sounds interesting - and a beautiful looking species to work with too!

Jamie


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## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

SofieB said:


> At this point I will be collecting DNA samples and conducting spool-and-line tracking (I have ethics approval). The dragons will not leave the forest. No behavioural or chemical experiments.



Cool, what is your actual project trying to determine?


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## SofieB (Oct 19, 2011)

I will be largely exploring phylogeographic patterns of boyd's as well as looking into landscape genetics.


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

Purely out of curiosity, do Boyds continuously grow their toe nails?


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## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Purely out of curiosity, do Boyds continuously grow their toe nails?



Maybe that can be a secondary research topic just for you


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

jedi_339 said:


> Maybe that can be a secondary research topic just for you



Meaning?

Boyds are arboreal species and climbing is very important to them. That was my concern.


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## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Meaning?
> 
> Boyds are arboreal species and climbing is very important to them. That was my concern.



I mean maybe SofieB can clip some toenails on individuals and let you know if they regrow, a secondary experiment just for informations sake


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

Jedi, I don't really need to know, it should be known before the study begins. I don't think one clipped toe nail is going to hinder the lizard's climbing but these things should be considered. 
I worked with a guy who used toe clipping to mark individuals in his mark / recapture program. Some of the frogs could barely cling to the wet rocks after being "marked".


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## longqi (Oct 19, 2011)

Very valid point Micheal but Iguanas Beardies Goannas etc all regrow quite quickly so I imagine these would be similar

My concern would be the stress level on the Boyds handled and clipped
They freak out pretty easily even in captivity
Just catching them will be pretty stressful on them


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Purely out of curiosity, do Boyds continuously grow their toe nails?



I'm pretty sure that all lizards, like anything with nails, even us, continually grow them out - they'd have to to maintain them in suitable condition. I know if you cut just the tips off lizard claws they grow back in a couple of weeks.

Jamie


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## Bushman (Oct 19, 2011)

This sounds like an interesting and legitimate field study. 
I'm sure that there are some herpers here that can help you, myself included. 

Those wanting to help, please PM locations to Sofie rather than post them in the thread, to protect wild populations.


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

I had quite a bit to do with Boyds and don't find them any more stress when handled that any other agamid. A friend of mine marked and spooled a good number of Boyds during his studies and all went well. They trash, gape and wriggle when handled but it's only a temporary defence, once you let them go, they are back to normal.


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## waruikazi (Oct 19, 2011)

What is spooling?


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## snakeynewbie (Oct 19, 2011)

/


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> What is spooling?



A spool with very thin white cotton in attached to the animal and the end of the cotton tied to a point where the animal is released. The next day you can track the exact movements of the animal. To take the empty spool off the animal is the tricky part, you have to catch it again or use some self-dissolving tape (not sure what the latest technique is).


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## waruikazi (Oct 19, 2011)

Cool, cheers mate.



Waterrat said:


> A spool with very thin white cotton in attached to the animal and the end of the cotton tied to a point where the animal is released. The next day you can track the exact movements of the animal. To take the empty spool off the animal is the tricky part, you have to catch it again or use some self-dissolving tape (not sure what the latest technique is).


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 19, 2011)

I don't think anyone should give details here of where they might find numbers of these animals - by PM to the thread starter is appropriate.

As Michael says, Boyd's are pretty cool - I rarely handle mine, but when I do a cage clean and bag them up for 20 mins (usually quite disruptive to lizards), as soon as I put them back into the enclosure with a bowl of cockroaches or earthworms, they'll jump from my hands into the bowl to get food. I think they're very hard to stress actually, and as long as the environmental parameters are good, they are very easy to maintain - and they're just so beautiful!

Jamie


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## Ewan (Oct 19, 2011)

I by no means am having a shot at the OP however, how does a researcher gain permission to study an animal is it natural habitat when the researcher isn't even sure where to find the animal in the wild? Again not having a shot at you SofieB I just can't get my head around this and maybe you could explain it to me.


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## snakeynewbie (Oct 19, 2011)

Seriously Ewan? Knowing an animals range and knowing where to actually locate real numbers of them are two very different things and knowing exact locations down to GPS points isn't necessarily a requirement for ethics approval.


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## waruikazi (Oct 19, 2011)

Often the researcher doesn't have a choice on what they are researching.



Ewan said:


> I by no means am having a shot at the OP however, how does a researcher gain permission to study an animal is it natural habitat when the researcher isn't even sure where to find the animal in the wild? Again not having a shot at you SofieB I just can't get my head around this and maybe you could explain it to me.


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

If Sofie is the person I think she is, then she would have got pretty good idea where to find Boyds from Geordie Torr who studied them at several locations in the nineties. As things change over time, those localities may not be the hot spots they once were.


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## Ewan (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks for explaining that Gordo and Michael. 

And snakenewbie. Yes seriously! Please do not make people feel stupid for asking a question that you think has an obvious answer. There are people from all backgrounds on this website and not all of them are from higher education.

Kind regards.

Ewan.


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## PythonLegs (Oct 19, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Oh good grief... get a life you guys - unbeknownst to you there are lots of people doing legit work with reptiles in this country... not everyone thinks like you.
> 
> Jamie



I would caution Anyone about giving out information regarding wild populations to someone posting on an online forum, certainly without a lot more information and proof of legitimacy. Surely the O.P, attempting to complete a P.H.D, would know more appropriate channels to go through?

Apparently, Jaimie, unbeknownst to you, there are some dishonest people out there.


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## waruikazi (Oct 19, 2011)

Things can be said and questions can be asked without being rude. 

Typing 'D.O.D.G.Y' does not warn anyone of the concerns you have. 



PythonLegs said:


> I would caution Anyone about giving out information regarding wild populations to someone posting on an online forum, certainly without a lot more information and proof of legitimacy. Surely the O.P, attempting to complete a P.H.D, would know more appropriate channels to go through?
> 
> Apparently, Jaimie, unbeknownst to you, there are some dishonest people out there.


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## VasO (Oct 19, 2011)

> Surely the O.P, attempting to complete a P.H.D, would know more appropriate channels to go through?


 What would these more appropriate channels be? From the immediate response the thread has had I'd say that this forum is a valid way to gather data quickly.


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## SofieB (Oct 19, 2011)

Enthusiasts’ observations of _H. boydii _are not often recorded or known in the scientific community. Bridging the gap between researchers and enthusiasts would be highly beneficial to this study hence why I am asking this forum.
If anyone does know of large numbers of Boyd’s Forest Dragons could you please PM me. If you are worried about my credibility we can sort it out from there.


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 19, 2011)

SofieB said:


> Enthusiasts’ observations of _H. boydii _are not often recorded or known in the scientific community. Bridging the gap between researchers and enthusiasts would be highly beneficial to this study hence why I am asking this forum.
> If anyone does know of large numbers of Boyd’s Forest Dragons could you please PM me. If you are worried about my credibility we can sort it out from there.



Bridging the gap between researchers and enthusiasts... BRING IT ON!!! It's so rare that this happens... and I'm astounded that these silly, suspicious, linear-thinking members here can't see the value in that. We actually have a lot in common, and a lot to offer each other.

Good on you SofieB, and good luck in your quest!

jamie



PythonLegs said:


> I would caution Anyone about giving out information regarding wild populations to someone posting on an online forum, certainly without a lot more information and proof of legitimacy. Surely the O.P, attempting to complete a P.H.D, would know more appropriate channels to go through?
> 
> Apparently, Jaimie, unbeknownst to you, there are some dishonest people out there.



Nobody knows that better than I do PL, I've been around herps & herpers for over 50 years. Some of those who present themselves as shining ethical lights in the herp scene in this country are amongst the most sleazy and dishonest people I know. There are ways of establishing the legitimacy of a request like this without being rude, as Gordo said.

SophieB's stated interest in bridging the gap between science & hobby is a very refreshing attitude indeed. It seems hobbyists often complain about being shut out by scientists... and here we have half-baked, opinionated ignoramuses doing exactly the same thing.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

Jamie


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## Klaery (Oct 19, 2011)

Hey Sofie 
Hope your study (*that is legitimate*) is going well. People here should be able to help you out as you have already found. 




PythonLegs said:


> Surely the O.P, attempting to complete a P.H.D, would know more appropriate channels to go through?
> Apparently, Jaimie, unbeknownst to you, there are some dishonest people out there.



Care to share with Sofie these more appropriate channels? Maybe that was the reason for the thread..

I could use many words to describe Sofie but dishonest is not one of them. Geez so much negativity to an actual study on one of our favourite animals from an up and coming zoologist really does surprise me. If you want more information then you should message her, not attempt to belittle and demonstrate your ignorance.


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## alrightknight (Oct 19, 2011)

Im doing alot of study in epidemiology. Its the same deal, sure you can ask more qualified sources i.e. researchers, but they are referencing from text books and journal articles of which change all the time. In fact I don't think there is a more appropriate source to gather this sort of information, than on a forum with enthusiasts in the field you are researching.


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## snakeynewbie (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree. As others would know I've been asking about thorny devils. Well I've done googling, etc and the info out there is pretty limited, sometimes the best way is to ask around to find people that are actually doing it themselves, those people aren't necessarily the ones who are writing the research articles.


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

I don't doubt Sofie's integrity but I am sure she would inspire much more enthusiasm and information from the members here if she would reveal little bit more about her project. It always helps if people know what they are contributing their information towards. No need to go into great detail but at this stage, we have no idea whether her research is on genetics, physiology, population dynamics, behavioural study, ecology or something else.
Just a suggestion.


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## SofieB (Oct 19, 2011)

My project will largely be on the genetics of boyd’s dragons - looking at the genetic makeup, genetic patterns and distributions of individuals and groups of boyd’s. Info from this project shows what distributions where like in the past and to some extent what they will be like in the future.
This is why I need help with locating sites with lots of dragons.


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## snakeg56 (Oct 19, 2011)

why on earth do a PHD on Boyd's 'Forest Dragons , when a gentleman called Jordie Torr (forgiven the spelling) did his PHD on the same species, isn't about time that unii people did something useful and study the effect of wild pigs on the Boyd's Forest Dragon , cause you only have to go into any rainforest up north and u can see the problem that reptiles and cassowaries have with wild pigs destroying their habitat, we seem to concentrate on the native animals and not on the effects that introduced species do to the natives, habitat lost is the greatest problem they face, and yes people are worried about telling uni people where to find these reptiles as we know that yes some are held as specimens (dead) all in the name of science


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## snakeynewbie (Oct 19, 2011)

It's all about funding snakeg56, you have to be able to get funding. If someone is offering funding for a PhD project on Boyds genetics then that's what you do because it's absolutely crapful trying to source your own funding for things if no one is interested in paying for it.


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## Waterrat (Oct 19, 2011)

snakeg56 said:


> why on earth do a PHD on Boyd's 'Forest Dragons , when a gentleman called Jordie Torr (forgiven the spelling) did his PHD on the same species, isn't about time that unii people did something useful and study the effect of wild pigs on the Boyd's Forest Dragon , cause you only have to go into any rainforest up north and u can see the problem that reptiles and cassowaries have with wild pigs destroying their habitat, we seem to concentrate on the native animals and not on the effects that introduced species do to the natives, habitat lost is the greatest problem they face, and yes people are worried about telling uni people where to find these reptiles as we know that yes some are held as specimens (dead) all in the name of science



Christ! You go and tell them mate. :?
Jim Mitchell has done PhD on feral pigs with the Rainforest CRC. Have you read his papers?


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## jedi_339 (Oct 19, 2011)

snakeg56 said:


> why on earth do a PHD on Boyd's 'Forest Dragons , when a gentleman called Jordie Torr (forgiven the spelling) did his PHD on the same species, isn't about time that unii people did something useful and study the effect of wild pigs on the Boyd's Forest Dragon , cause you only have to go into any rainforest up north and u can see the problem that reptiles and cassowaries have with wild pigs destroying their habitat, we seem to concentrate on the native animals and not on the effects that introduced species do to the natives, habitat lost is the greatest problem they face, and yes people are worried about telling uni people where to find these reptiles as we know that yes some are held as specimens (dead) all in the name of science



Why isn't this information that SofieB is trying to study important?

The study of genetics, distribution of genetics within populations and genetic patterns can be important tools in both future wildlife management and the overall understanding of the species themselves.


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## snakeg56 (Oct 19, 2011)

You are correct Jedi and study in any field is important and Sofie will do great at obtaining her PHD, I just think that there should be more study on the effect of habitat loss and so forth , if one has ever been up to the rainforests in the tropics you can see what has occurred , its a shame that more isn't done to save these great reptiles


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## snakeynewbie (Oct 19, 2011)

There has been a lot of work done on habitat loss too, doesn't make this study less important, particularly when managing a species that may be quite disjointed in it's distribution


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## SofieB (Oct 19, 2011)

There are many reasons and much deliberation that goes into choosing a particular PhD project. I am from the Wet Tropics and I know of many issues that the region has. I don’t want to get the thread off topic so I will leave it there.

Back to the original post. Please PM me if you know of any populations of Boyd’s Dragons around the Wet Tropics.


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## waruikazi (Oct 20, 2011)

Why don't you do the study if you are that passionate about it?



snakeg56 said:


> why on earth do a PHD on Boyd's 'Forest Dragons , when a gentleman called Jordie Torr (forgiven the spelling) did his PHD on the same species, isn't about time that unii people did something useful and study the effect of wild pigs on the Boyd's Forest Dragon , cause you only have to go into any rainforest up north and u can see the problem that reptiles and cassowaries have with wild pigs destroying their habitat, we seem to concentrate on the native animals and not on the effects that introduced species do to the natives, habitat lost is the greatest problem they face, and yes people are worried about telling uni people where to find these reptiles as we know that yes some are held as specimens (dead) all in the name of science


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 20, 2011)

snakeg56 said:


> why on earth do a PHD on Boyd's 'Forest Dragons , when a gentleman called Jordie Torr (forgiven the spelling) did his PHD on the same species, isn't about time that unii people did something useful and study the effect of wild pigs on the Boyd's Forest Dragon , cause you only have to go into any rainforest up north and u can see the problem that reptiles and cassowaries have with wild pigs destroying their habitat, we seem to concentrate on the native animals and not on the effects that introduced species do to the natives, habitat lost is the greatest problem they face, and yes people are worried about telling uni people where to find these reptiles as we know that yes some are held as specimens (dead) all in the name of science



There you have it SofieB - you obviously made a mistake when you chose your topic ! Not only might you get the advice you actually asked for here, but you'll get heaps more that you didn't ask for from the peanut gallery. Snakeg56 is obviously the man of the moment... get rid of your current supervisor and let this fellow set your priorities!

If I recall, SofieB asked for advice on populations of BFDs, not suggestions that she may have erred in the selection of her study topic. The abject rudeness of some of these responses is astounding!

Jamie


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## longqi (Oct 20, 2011)

This has turned into a great thread
I admit I had my doubts at the beginning because of a lack of information but it has turned out well

Perhaps it will help in the future


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## Enlil (Oct 21, 2011)

SofieB, I can not help you with your study, but would like to read the results, good luck.


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## gus11 (Oct 24, 2011)

what uni are you working through? who is your supervisor?


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## SofieB (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks guys for your help.


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## Waterrat (Oct 26, 2011)

No answer to Gus11 question? I would also like to know.


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## SofieB (Oct 28, 2011)

If anyone is worried about my credentials please PM me directly.


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## Rhaenys (Nov 2, 2011)

Good luck!


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