# The Good; Bad and Ugly



## indicus (Jul 30, 2007)

What do we have in common as reptile enthusiasts?
For most; as reptile keepers i'd like to think we share at least one thing in common "a love and passion towards our scaly friends; whether you keep a lot or a few."
I believe sites like this are a great way to share information; share ideas and discuss reptiles and topic's regarding reptiles in some detail, regardless of what level of keeping experience one may have.
Keepers will always have differing views on how one should keep their herps; what species is favoured over another etc etc....' to be expected'
Due to what experience one may have; personal differences and differing ideas; you'll always have some degree of conflicting opinions; which sometimes leads to personal attacks on members, and locking of threads....a nightmare for the site mod's.
Where do you draw the line?
If this site; as with others; is designed for the sharing of information; to give one a love; interest; or better understanding towards reptiles; a chance for newbie and long term herper to gain a better insight.....and in most cases, offers the reader 'more then one way to look at it'.....it has served it's members well....regardless. 
In my opinion; swearing, threats and blatant personal attacks are one thing......but to lock a thread because some may not agree; or have a difference in opinion is just absurd; and rude.....This appears to be a trend as of late (not what you know; but who) 
By locking a thread; does this give the reader a chance to see the big picture?; allow him or her a chance to make their own opinions based on the information provided.....or not?.
What do you think?
Keep in mind just because a topic may not interest you; or you think the members may be debating a topic rather extremely; some actually may be interested in the out come....the points raised and the differing views that come about through debate.....look at the views some threads get; that tells me some are interested.
It's great that a new herper can put up a picture of his or her new pet; something which they may be proud of.....and so he/or she should be.
I also think it's just as important that breeders are able to discuss a topic in detail; regarding locals; colour forms etc; even if it appears heated.
If you can't stand the heat....well you know how it goes.
Some of those breeders/long time members spend a lot of time and effort answering questions; sharing photos etc etc.....and in my opinion helped make the site as popular as it is......and just as important as they can be in offering help or advice; should be able to discuss/debate a topic that they may have an interest in.
Isn't APS; as with other sites; for the benefit of all reptile enthusiasts....new or old? 
Is there a easy answer?
As a member, what do you think?


----------



## Miss B (Jul 30, 2007)

I think discussion is fine.
I think debate is fine.
I think heated argument is fine.
But when personal insults start getting thrown, then the whole thing just drags the forum down and I don't blame mods for locking/deleting the thread. Healthy debate is good though, and as a newbie I like seeing the differing opinions from the more experienced herpers - even if they are often conflicting. It helps to provide a more rounded view on the matter at hand.

I think it's great that new herpers can show off pics of their collection and most people will have something nice to say. Those who have to constantly drag others down with comments like, "What's so special about it" etc - perhaps if they can't say anything nice, they can keep their thoughts to themselves. We can't all have a massive collection of absolute stunners, but we are entitled to be excited and passionate about our herps regardless.

Those members who spend a lot of time offering advice and answering newbie questions (often over and over again) should be applauded. It's not very nice, as a newbie, to ask a question and cop "Do a search" or "Why don't you try Google". This is a herp forum, and heaven forbid someone should come on here and ask a herp-related question! It's quite possible that the member asking the question _had_ done a search, and did not find the information they were after - or perhaps did find answers, but not in enough detail.

Ummm what else. It's always good to see the more experienced members offering constructive criticism as opposed to blatant insults - if a newbie has posted a thread asking for help or advice, the least you could do is be civil towards them. Everyone has to learn at some point!

Overall APS has been an awesome place to soak up loads of information - there is always someone happy to offer their opinion/advice. If we could just keep the sarky comments and insults to a minimum, everything would be pretty peachy  

My main advice: STOP AND THINK _BEFORE_ YOU HIT THAT 'SUBMIT REPLY' BUTTON!


----------



## Mrs I (Jul 30, 2007)

I like to read the debates on any subject matter, as a newbie it helps me understand different peoples point of views.

Everyone has different views and this is the way it should be.

How boring would life be if we all agreed all of the time?

Mrs I

xxxx


----------



## mrsshep77 (Jul 30, 2007)

I'm with you Tree there are always going to be differences of opinions as we are only human after all! And yes there will always be topics that are hotly debated more than others but isnt that what this is all about, sharing our own information with others and for all of us to get a better understanding and knowledge of the hobby as a whole!

I know in my time with herps (which is relatively short to many others)I have spent alot of time researching and asking questions and trying to find the best results for my own reptiles that benefits me. However having said that there are many situations where I've had many different opinions and possible solutions from differing people who have taken the time to help me out or answer any questions I may have and I never thought any one answer was wrong just because it didnt suit my scenario, its just at that time it didnt fit in with what I needed!

Many of us take pride in our collections and love the snakes we do have and we are excited about the progress of our snakes in different stages of their life and we want to share it with people that have the same interests as us and we should encourage this as best we can, especially amongst the newcomers to the hobby as they need to know what they have is as special as any professional breeders blood lines!
We also need to encourage that people seek out answers to their questions they have and not feel they are going to be publicly attacked or ridiculed just because of a stance they may take isnt what other people agree on.

If there is a topic that doesnt interest you or you dont agree on and there is nothing you can "positively" add to the situation, then it'd be best if you left it alone!
It is one thing to have a heated discussion, which I believe is just 2 sides of a conversation that have difference of opinions but each may not be entirely wrong but it is another for a person to openly defame, attack and verbally abuse another person.

It's not a perfect world where we all get along and everything is roses but it'd be nice that we could at least interact on a mature adult playing ground!


----------



## Mrs I (Jul 30, 2007)

Oh, but there is no need to personally attack anyone.

As I said each to their own view.

Mrs I

xxxx


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 30, 2007)

Do you have to be a Miss or a Mrs to reply to this thread? :lol:


----------



## Miss B (Jul 30, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Do you have to be a Miss or a Mrs to reply to this thread? :lol:


 
LOL! I hadn't picked up on that :lol:


----------



## Mrs I (Jul 30, 2007)

lmao....


----------



## mrsshep77 (Jul 30, 2007)

Good one donk!!! :lol:


----------



## moosenoose (Jul 30, 2007)

Miss B said:


> I think discussion is fine.
> I think debate is fine.
> I think heated argument is fine.



I think throwing a few punches is fine also


----------



## Vat69 (Jul 30, 2007)

I agree with you Indicus. But alas, I think it's too late for this site; too late a long time ago.


----------



## Retic (Jul 30, 2007)

Tremain, some very good points and I agree totally. We are all here presumably because we share the same basic thing, a love of reptiles of one sort or another. 
I love a good healthy debate and even at times a heated debate BUT I draw the line at personal attacks and insults, if a point can't be conveyed without having to resort to attacks then go back and think about it a little more. 
Just recently there was a thread where a member was referred to as dodgy, several times in capital letters all because a statement was misconstrued. Regardless of that mud sticks, that thread should have been deleted not locked.
Surely most of us are big enough and mature enough to be able to talk about things and disagree in a grown up manner, it doesn't seem too much to ask or expect.
Instead of locking a thread surely it makes more sense to just delete the offensive rubbish and leave it open and hopefully get it back on track ?
I definitely agree with this " This appears to be a trend as of late (not what you know; but who) " and that is very sad, the reason we wont achieve anything from a legislative point of view is the way the hobby is so deeply fragmented.
To answer the question "Is there a easy answer?" well probably not.


----------



## Vat69 (Jul 30, 2007)

Now I think about it, I'd say the site just reflects the hobby to an extent. I know all hobbies have their rivalries and such, but I've never been in another hobby that had so much in-fighting and 'behind the back' aggression. I've never met more dodgy, un-trustworthy or un-reliable people than I have through the reptile keeping community.
Too many people seem to either have an axe to grind or can't for the life of them even turn up to an agreed meeting spot on time (if they even bother to at all).
And I think this post just might qualify as sedition, whether it fits the official defitinition of the term or not.

/end rant


----------



## moosenoose (Jul 30, 2007)

Just typical of a bunch of bogans!


----------



## Magpie (Jul 30, 2007)

Vat69 said:


> Now I think about it, I'd say the site just reflects the hobby to an extent. I know all hobbies have their rivalries and such, but I've never been in another hobby that had so much in-fighting and 'behind the back' aggression. I've never met more dodgy, un-trustworthy or un-reliable people than I have through the reptile keeping community.
> Too many people seem to either have an axe to grind or can't for the life of them even turn up to an agreed meeting spot on time (if they even bother to at all).
> And I think this post just might qualify as sedition, whether it fits the official defitinition of the term or not.
> 
> /end rant


 

I've got to disagree with that. Maybe you've been lucky but compared to bird breeding, fish breeding, dog breeding and horse breeding, all of which I've been involved with to some extent... I love reptile breeders. Reptiles breeders are on the whole honest and open compared to other animal breeders that I've dealt with (generalities of course). Even in Bromeliad growing circles there's more bitching and backstabbing than in reptiles and they are plants for goodness sakes.
I've got no idea what threads are being locked, I'm lucky to read 10% of threads here these days. But maybe they are being locked because it's the same old stuff being brought up again and again and the mods know that it degenerates into insults?
Erin, maybe you've found a better site. I haven't. I've looked and I'm a member of several and quite a few non-herp ones too. They all have the same problems, either you moderate and make people unhappy or you don't and it turns into a kiddy forum of name calling and insults.
I think often the answer may be as simple as starting a new thread about the topic that you want to discuss. Instead of taking someones thread OT, just start a thread with the question "what do you think of these locales?" or what ever it is you wish to discuss.
I hate politics and avoid them as much as possible, but wherever there's two people there's at least 3 sides to an argument


----------



## Magpie (Jul 30, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> Just typical of a bunch of bogans!


 

I'm a Metro-bogan thankyou


----------



## Recharge (Jul 30, 2007)

> Surely most of us are big enough and mature enough to be able to talk about things and disagree in a grown up manner


unfortunately most of the evidence points out this isn't so, in a lot of cases.

and then you have this one simple fact, this is not a public forum.
you agree to a set of terms when signing up, the owners word is law and if you don't like it, go play else where.

luckily, he does give us some leeway in a lot of cases. (and so do the mods)
but at the end of the day it is not a "free speech" forum.

like any other pet related arena, you have your raving nut cases who are overly opinionated, your middle grounders and your pet owners and some grey areas in between.

you have your clicks, your outcasts and your trouble makers.

it's a very mixed up group and there's always going to be tension and trouble makers sewn in.
and the powers that be have to do their best to cover all these aspects

someone's always going to be unhappy with something, it's just one of those facts of life.
for the most part it's being handled pretty well generally.

but all of this is up to the site owner really, and as I said, when push comes to shove, it's his decision, and stiff bickies for anyone that doesn't like it.


----------



## Mrs I (Jul 30, 2007)

The site owner and moderators have to do what they think is best to keep the peace.

Debates are great, personal attacks are not and I can understand those particular posts/threads being deleted.

Isnt Slander is a chargeable offence?


----------



## Colin (Jul 30, 2007)

As always you make a lot of sense Tremain  As do others in this thread.

With the issue of locked threads, these are done by a mod for a reason, whether we agree with those reasons or not. I think it's something that we have to live with. There will always be occassions where someone will disagree with a decision that a mod makes. I don't envy their job as they will never please everybody when making these decisions. 



> The site owner and moderators have to do what they think is best to keep the peace.



But if someone involved in a locked thread feels that their point of view has not been explained sufficiently or wishes to continue an issue politely, with others interested in the issue, there is nothing stopping anyone from opening another thread and continuing the discussion / debate in a civil, polite and friendly manner. 

So locked threads don't really stop a discussion or debate, they only really serve as a warning that things have or are starting to get out of hand and should be taken as a guide to relax and be friendlier and more respectful to each other if a new one is created to continue.

 smile


----------



## Miss B (Jul 30, 2007)

Colin said:


> I don't envy their job as they will never please everybody when making these decisions.


 
Agreed, I think people do not realise just how difficult it is to be a mod. I am a moderator on another forum and there are some situations where you're between a rock and a hard place - damned if you do, damned if you don't! :? 

You can't please everybody at once, unfortunately. If you do not agree with something a mod has done or said, you are best to raise the matter with them in a sensible fashion. Creating a thread to whinge about something a mod has done will not get you anywhere. If you act in a mature fashion you are far more likely to get somewhere


----------



## S.D. (Jul 30, 2007)

Recharge said:


> unfortunately most of the evidence points out this isn't so, in a lot of cases.
> 
> and then you have this one simple fact, this is not a public forum.
> you agree to a set of terms when signing up, the owners word is law and if you don't like it, go play else where.
> ...


 
I think that’s what makes the most sense to me. The demographic is so wide within reptile keeping. Think about this for a second – you have full-blown PhD Scientists who work in professional areas of herptoculture rubbing shoulders with 17-year-old school students who work at McDonalds part-time. How many other hobbies contain such a diverse range from the community at large? Therefore I think it’s a given that contained within this grouping, you are going to encounter both the mean population and also outliers with regards to human behaviour and/or nature – and that’s a lot of individuals making a whole.

To answer the original question though, as a member I am very appreciative of the fact that I am not the owner nor a mod here. Like I said, with such a ranging demographic, they have to act in the best interests of the collective, which, to say the least, is all over the place. Whilst you have serious discussions between ‘the old heads’ that sometimes get heated, the mods also have to consider the interests of younger members who are indeed quite obviously members of the same convergence here. If they believe that seeing arguments reach levels of utter school-yard name calling is inappropriate for the younger members, then so be it. Like I keep harping on, the community here is so diverse that even if the mods and owners here were to change, those assuming the new role of forum police may sway the other side of the spectrum and allow total and utter chaos. Then instead of people insisting on relaxing of the rules here, they would be begging for enforcement of the standards. Catch-22. And believe me a forum with no rules doesn’t last long at all


----------



## FAY (Jul 30, 2007)

Very good points Indicus........I say to a lot of people that I come in contact with.....ask one question to ten different experienced herpers...you will get ten different answers and they could all be right!
I do not agree with Vat69 about reptile people being the most dodgy etc etc. It is no different in any hobby, probably more so.
I love it when people put up their pics of their animals. I do not accept that people have a right to criticise that animal, the old adage...if you aren't going to say something nice........
That person has put up that pic as they think their animal is the most gorgeous thing ever, no different than your kids....you may think they are the most gorgeous things , someone else think s that they suck....but doesn't give that person the right to insult them or get stuck into someone else 'casue they don't agree with you and yes I enjoy a good debate to see every side of the argument.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 30, 2007)

GARTHNFAY said:


> I love it when people put up their pics of their animals. I do not accept that people have a right to criticise that animal, the old adage...if you aren't going to say something nice........
> That person has put up that pic as they think their animal is the most gorgeous thing ever, no different than your kids....you may think they are the most gorgeous things , someone else think s that they suck


 I disagree. I dont see a problem with people giving their honest opinions on a photo of someones animal. If people cant deal with someones opinion, dont put your photo up. It's annoying seeing pic after pic of average specimens and everyone raving about them. There's nothing wrong at all with someone giving their honest opinion.


----------



## mrsshep77 (Jul 30, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> I disagree. I dont see a problem with people giving their honest opinions on a photo of someones animal. If people cant deal with someones opinion, dont put your photo up. It's annoying seeing pic after pic of average specimens and everyone raving about them. There's nothing wrong at all with someone giving their honest opinion.


 
Honest opinion is totally different to just being downright hurtful.... make it constructive criticism!!
But thats the thing what one person thinks is average is stunning to someone else so who are we to say that one persons snake is any less "stunning" than the next!
Alot of times these are peoples PETS so they have a special place in their heart and home which I'm sure people can appreciate that hearing you have an "ugly or average pet" wouldnt be very nice... regardless how honest YOU feel like being!!!

It goes back to that everyone WILL have an opinion, which we are all entitled to but lets use some tact and respect for each other, rather than being quick to flame, insult or talk down to someone else who's opinion doesnt fit in with our own!


----------



## Miss B (Jul 30, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> I disagree. I dont see a problem with people giving their honest opinions on a photo of someones animal. If people cant deal with someones opinion, dont put your photo up. It's annoying seeing pic after pic of average specimens and everyone raving about them. There's nothing wrong at all with someone giving their honest opinion.


 
I disagree. If someone puts up a pic of their animal and specifically asks 'What do you think?' then by all means be honest (but not nasty or condescending or you'll come off looking like a complete w*nker). But if they are just posting a pic of their animal because they are excited about it - to criticise it for being average is totally unneccessary. It doesn't have to be anything special. Who says you can only post pics of your animals if they are total stunners? Newbies and those who own less-impressive animals have every right to be excited about their herps and it's not fair for others to detract from that.

[EDIT] Jinx, Mrsshep! You said what I was thinking, but far more eloquantly


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 30, 2007)

Miss B said:


> I disagree. If someone puts up a pic of their animal and specifically asks 'What do you think?' then by all means be honest (but not nasty or condescending or you'll come off looking like a complete w*nker). But if they are just posting a pic of their animal because they are excited about it - to criticise it for being average is totally unneccessary. It doesn't have to be anything special. Who says you can only post pics of your animals if they are total stunners? Newbies and those who own less-impressive animals have every right to be excited about their herps and it's not fair for others to detract from that.
> 
> [EDIT] Jinx, Mrsshep! You said what I was thinking, but far more eloquantly


 I agree. When i say honest opinion, i'm not saying it's ok to be nasty and hurtful. I'm talking more about when people put pics up saying stuff like " I reckon so & so breeds the best jungles" or whatever, and in reality the animals are ordinary, like 99% of photos on this site. I'm not talking about picking on kids showing their pet off.


----------



## bredli84 (Jul 30, 2007)

i couldn't agree more with your first post, Miss B.
i havn't read all the others but you seem to be on the ball. 
i love to post pics of my new snakes, i dont ask others opinions because i know mine are the best!


----------



## Hickson (Jul 30, 2007)

I've said it before on many occasions, but it can still bear repeating:

Everyone on this site has an opinion, and they are all entitled to express that opinion as long as it doesn't break the Rules. (Of course, 'entitled to express' it doesn't mean you have to express it - but too many people appear to have an over-inflated opinion of their own opinions).

Unfortunately, too many members of the site take offence to differing opinions and in many cases think they need to justify their own position and try and convince everyone that their way is the only way (or best way). Certain individuals also develop dislikes of other individuals that won't come around to their way of thinking (or that they've argued with in Chat). Every week the Mods get a requests to "delete my thread" or "delete his posts" because someone disagreed with the thread's creator. Sometimes it doesn't even need to be a difference of opinion - we get requests to delete a particular post because the creator just doesn't like that person posting in their thread.

Although this is a privately owned and run site, it is public domain and the Mods will not delete posts or threads because of differences of opinion. We will delete posts that break the Rules (and issue appropriate infractions) and we will certainly lock threads if we think it is justified. 



Hix


----------



## Mrs I (Jul 30, 2007)

What did mum used to say....

If you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all....

Its great to see people put up their pics of their animals good, bad or ugly. If you like it write a comment . People must also remember that their is a lot of under 18's on this site and it can be quite hurtful to them if someone says "What an ugly looking snake you have there".

Another saying mum taught me ... Do unto others as you wish to be done to you.

I myself love looking at all the pics posted and thinks more people should post pics.

It was Matts pics that made me go out an buy my first snake.

Im with you Miss B and MrsShep. 

Mrs I


xxxx


----------



## troycoop (Jul 30, 2007)

As everyone has said as a newbie this site is great and even if you're not new it is good to be able to find out different views on situations.. I mean at first my partner was always on here as he is the herp fanatic i wasn't so thrilled but since i have the net at work i've been doing the searching and the reading on this site i am now addicted and thanks to all you helpful people and all you enthusiatic people you're even getting me closer to actually picking up one of his snakes and holding itmyself.. I love this site it has helped me find my partner herps he wants but also helped me gain knowdledge on them and now it is something we enjoy together even if i haven't got the guts yet i have the knowledge lol .... THANKS APS and all you great ppl out there who help us out.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jul 30, 2007)

It is a fact that there has been a thread in the past locked purely because a mod decided that there was nothing more in his opinion that people could add to it. That in my opinion smacked of absolute arrogance, over the top and annoyed me no end. 
Breaching rules, well then fair enough.

Cheers Dave


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Jul 30, 2007)

Yes Dave , 
i agree 100% 
and Tremain your right mate,
the thread Dave reffers to was locked before i could comment that the whole thing was a simple mix up, by me , 
and was about to be resolved etc 
my apologies to those involved , Rob and Steve and Mark,

cheers Roger


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jul 30, 2007)

I don't know about the thread you are talking about Roger ?, the one I was talking about was 10 months ago or even longer and there wasn't anything heated about it.

Like I said if there has been rule breaks, moderate away.
I would hate to do there job though, rather thankless I would think.

Cheers Dave


----------



## Vat69 (Jul 30, 2007)

Magpie said:


> I've got to disagree with that. Maybe you've been lucky but compared to bird breeding, fish breeding, dog breeding and horse breeding, all of which I've been involved with to some extent... I love reptile breeders. Reptiles breeders are on the whole honest and open compared to other animal breeders that I've dealt with (generalities of course). Even in Bromeliad growing circles there's more bitching and backstabbing than in reptiles and they are plants for goodness sakes.
> I've got no idea what threads are being locked, I'm lucky to read 10% of threads here these days. But maybe they are being locked because it's the same old stuff being brought up again and again and the mods know that it degenerates into insults?
> Erin, maybe you've found a better site. I haven't. I've looked and I'm a member of several and quite a few non-herp ones too. They all have the same problems, either you moderate and make people unhappy or you don't and it turns into a kiddy forum of name calling and insults.
> I think often the answer may be as simple as starting a new thread about the topic that you want to discuss. Instead of taking someones thread OT, just start a thread with the question "what do you think of these locales?" or what ever it is you wish to discuss.
> I hate politics and avoid them as much as possible, but wherever there's two people there's at least 3 sides to an argument




Firstly, thanks for responding to my post. Secondly I'm honestly glad to hear you're so happy with the hobby and the people you've met through it. Don't get me wrong I've met some great people too. I've just been surprised over the years that I've met more un-reliable types through this hobby than in life in general. I've been involved with other hobbies aswell and although I've met dodgy types through them, their numbers were dwarfed by how many I've met through reptile-keeping. Maybe I've just been un-lucky? By the sounds of the responses to my post I'd say that could be it.
On the subject of forums, I haven't found a perfect Australian herps forum, but I'm a mod on an American herp site and while it might not have anywhere near as many members as APS, there are no problems concerning over/under-moderation. Users and mods treat each other in a respectful matter and alot of useful and interesting information is shared. The only down-side is hardly anyone owns Australian herps :lol:
I agree, you can't make everybody happy and there's always another side to the story, but this _particular_ gripe has been around for years. Instead of the peasants having to continually revolt, maybe something should be done. 
Clearly I don't despise the site all that much, I'm still a member afterall, and in saying all of this I quite like the people who mod this site. And I'll stop myself there before I get into trouble


----------



## Reaper (Jul 30, 2007)

there are some very valid points in this thread and its great to see that most are in agreeance with my own views. being a new member to this site doesnt always mean new to the herp world as alot of people seem to think. i had been viewing this site for a couple of years before joining. i agree debating and diff opinions make it interesting etc etc as posted already in this thread.
however there is no reason to personly attack someone or make them feel bad.....period! i hate it when you see a thread like" my new enclosure" and some one has put alot of time/effort into building it to what there finances permit and some idiot posts rubbish like "thats crap" or "start again" instead of giving some CONSTRUCTIVE critisisim like "perhaps u should try doing this as it will work better " so on so on. one of my first posts on this forum resulted in me being personally attacked publicly in chat! i simply posted CORRECT info regarding an enclosure size question..... now i was attacked because i didn't keep the particular breed in question........ that was it. this person than replied to the thread with almost the exact same info i had posted, that he attacked me for posting!! this person knew nothing about me or what herp knowladge or history i have..... i had actually origanally planned on getting one of these animals before the ones i endded up getting.... so i had done alot of research into it and knew what i was talking about. there was NO need for it and it made me very hesitant to post after it!
this was very offputting and infuriating being a newbie and all. and when i explained this to the person saying it was not very cool to do this, i recieved a "whateva"..... 

anyway i think some people tend to forget that there are real people and real emotions on the otherside of the pc.... so think before you post.

and saying someones plain carpet is ugly or crap, well...... that someone may be a 13 year old girl who has parents that can't afford or wont spend $500+ on a pet snake. so that plain carpet is the best she could get, and thats her baby whom she is very attatched and proud of.... so why cant she show it off with the best of them?
at work i treat every car i work on the same, coz to each person, there car is there own ferrari... i think the same goes with herps.... every ones pet is gorgous in there own eyes. if u dont agree keep it to yourself!

on a positive most people on this site are tops.... always willing to give great advice and kind words these people make this site work and keeps us all comming back.
cheers and thanks for listning guys.


----------



## Miss B (Jul 30, 2007)

Very well said Reaper! *applauds*


----------



## Reaper (Jul 30, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Very well said Reaper! *applauds*


 
lol.... 'takes a bow'...:lol:


----------



## indicus (Jul 31, 2007)

Firstly many apologies for not getting back to this thread sooner....
I decided on having one rum after work yesterday...well one lead to another and so on....i was really having a hard time reading the pc; let alone typing.
Thanks to each of those; that posted their thoughts and opinions; even if it falls on deaf ears.
Some opinions i agree with; some i don't....that's life.
However by allowing a thread to continue; even if one doesn't agree with another; gives the reader differing view points...."to think outside the square"
It brings other view points to light, that one may not have considered....even in the case of this thread; i for one now have a better insight on the subject, and other members; based on their opinions......
If the thread was locked; i may be none the wiser.
The mod's of any site have a hard time with all the bull they have to deal with; and yes i agree 'dammed if you do; dammed if you don't.....however lets keep in mind; they stuck their hand up ....took the job; so it's to be expected they have decisions to make; that wont always please all.....and quite upset some at times.
Tuff job, i'm sure; i can only imagine.....
What makes a good mod?
In my opinion; a good mod; is one that moderates... sorting out trouble makers/abuse etc etc.....while keeping their personal views separate from the job at hand. Just because ones a mod on a site; does not mean their opinion is gospel....more often then not; they can be just as uniformed as the next; in fairness; all pending the topic being discussed and their knowledge on the subject.
This site is privately owned....thanks to those responsible for making a site available to all; so each and everyone can share their thoughts on reptile related issues and topic's....we can see from some posts what joy and knowledge some gain by visiting this site....well done.
Having said that; we as site members make a site what it is; for better or worse; private or not.....without debate; the sharing of ideas and most importantly discussion....it'll not change for the better.
I'm sure i've left out quite a bit; but with this hang over....i'll have to gather my thoughts later


----------



## Aslan (Jul 31, 2007)

I tend to agree with most of the posts added to this thread;

I recognise that, at times, I have been involved in quite heated discussions with other members regarding many different topics, I would like to think that these discussions have very much broadened my views on a number of topics - I still stand very strongly by quite a number of my beliefs, however also believe that a number of my views have changed after reading a long, in depth and often heated discussion between those far more knowledgable than myself (of which there are many)...

I am also strongly of the belief that I have learned many lessons without having to make the mistakes that those keepers before us have made on our behalf - without this forum and the different views of those experienced people - heaven only knows how most of us would learn and progress through a hobby we thoroughly love and enjoy...

On occasion I have wondered as to why a thread would be locked when deleting the posts (or accounts) of those who are unable to discuss topics in a civil manner would have achieved the desired result - still allowing others to gain some insight from the disagreements of those more mature and responsible...Unfortunately, no matter where you are, there will always be those who's opinion blinds them to any form of rational thought process - resulting in abuse, name calling and the other last resorts of those not worthy of being heard. I believe that closing a thread due to the ramblings of these fools merely limits what can be gained from those who have the ability to listen to another point of view and (whether they agree or not) gain some understanding or knowledge as a result...

...I have a very keen desire to progress in this hobby and strongly believe that without forums such as APS this would be made much more difficult. I am indebted to many who have given me the advice I have needed and would like to think that some time I will be able to pass that same knowledge on to someone else in my shoes...

...No doubt Moderators make the occasional error, but it is also of no doubt that without them these forums would be far less helpful and of far less use and enjoyment to those that have the desire and ability to use them correctly...


----------



## Magpie (Aug 1, 2007)

It's always interesting how diferent people see things from another view.
I had one person once make a comment that I'd never agreed with him on anything and seemed to take to opposite view just on prinicple. This truly amazed me as I'd hardly even noticed this person before and could not think of one situation (other than the one under discussion) where I'd disagreed with him.
I guess a lot of the time the mods would rather just lock a thread than see the same arguments happen over and over again.


----------



## wredwilly (Aug 1, 2007)

*i bought a bag of snakes alive...but they were all dead ;-(*

to indicus, dear sir, or in fact madam, anyhow do you make it a habit to drink rum a lot & then post on the forums ffs? hmmm???!!! cos if u do i say.... hey u do a good job when u've had a few.

i agree that mods have a tuff job, but the way i see it is it aint my job so i dont care so long as they dont inconvenience me. and if they do inconvenience me they they will cop a heap of ineffective complaining from my end, and seriously do they really want that? i say no, just like all the girls at school used to.

QOTD.

"why breed snakes when u can take a lizard & cut its legs off?"


----------



## Hickson (Aug 1, 2007)

I understand that locking a thread may put a put a stop to the flow of information, but usually we only lock threads if Rules are being broken or look like they will be (when people are getting heated), or if the thread has gone on for a few pages and no new information has been forthcoming. At that point, people are usually just argueing the same points and nobody is going to change their minds.

It's also nice to know how many people do appreciate the work the mods do. While the Mods will express opinions, we won't allow those opinions to dictate our work - in other words, I won't close a thread because I disagree with it or find it boring. Neither will the other Mods. 

In order to maintain some kind of consistency we only have four Mods at present. Many of the past members of this site (past, because they have been banned or suspended) have wanted to be Mods, but many we rejected because their behaviour in the forums indicated they would not remain objective. And we didn't want megalomaniac mods with personal vendettas suspending people for having a different viewpoint.



Hix


----------



## kelly (Aug 1, 2007)

Hix said:


> In order to maintain some kind of consistency we only have four Mods at present.



What happened to GreenWillow


----------



## moosenoose (Aug 1, 2007)

They worked out you were in cahoots with her Kelly and had her taken out the back and executed! :twisted:


----------



## kelly (Aug 1, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> They worked out you were in cahoots with her Kelly and had her taken out the back and executed! :twisted:



Oh no!
That explanation could be quite true....She's not a Mod anymore & she's just kind of disappeared off the face of the planet!
:shock: Where have you hidden the body Hix??!!


----------



## Retic (Aug 1, 2007)

Any reason why my thread on Illegal Street Racers was locked ? It wasn't getting nasty as no-one was likely to disagree with what I had said given the subject matter. It seemed to be cruising along just fine. There have been quite a number of threads locked recently seemingly for no apparent reason.


----------



## kelly (Aug 1, 2007)

Mmm I was thinking that too boa, I thought it was a pretty decent, reasonable discussion...


----------



## Tsidasa (Aug 1, 2007)

boa said:


> Any reason why my thread on Illegal Street Racers was locked ? It wasn't getting nasty as no-one was likely to disagree with what I had said given the subject matter. It seemed to be cruising along just fine. There have been quite a number of threads locked recently seemingly for no apparent reason.



hear hear


----------



## timmyboy (Aug 1, 2007)

Thats fair enough


----------



## Scleropages (Aug 1, 2007)

boa said:


> Any reason why my thread on Illegal Street Racers was locked ? It wasn't getting nasty as no-one was likely to disagree with what I had said given the subject matter. It seemed to be cruising along just fine. There have been quite a number of threads locked recently seemingly for no apparent reason.


 

My pet cat thread got deleted , LOL , erm and the one about countin to 30  , youse lucky it was only locked... now I wiill never count to 30 ugh:shock:


----------



## indicus (Aug 2, 2007)

Hix wrote: "I understand that locking a thread may put a put a stop to the flow of information, but usually we only lock threads if Rules are being broken or look like they will be (when people are getting heated), or if the thread has gone on for a few pages and no new information has been forthcoming. At that point, people are usually just arguing the same points and nobody is going to change their minds."

As you expressed Hix; at times a thread may seem to; and can get rather heated; and in any case I’m sure if it is to become offensive; that the offensive comments, or those responsible, may get a holiday (as you would put it) from APS….which I’m sure most would agree; being a family site as such…..

Isn't it possible; simply to remove the offensive comments?.... a simple word of warning; from what I’ve seen in the past?....is this an easier solution that may please all concerned?

It’s a shame that members may take an interest in a particular topic; post their thoughts; views; opinions….only to see a thread locked or deleted…not to mention their seemly wasting their time; to post comments/thoughts to begin with.

One may also wonder; would it not be a little premature to lock a thread on the basis's of may be’s or could be’s…may be a topic looks like rules will be broken if allowed to continue…..could be that nobody will have anything further to add now or in the future…interesting for-thought.

Could this be taken as ones opinion; or divine intervention? ….considering the facts or opinions that may surface at a later date by someone who’s proven; or is quite knowledgeable in the particular subject. 

Often one who has posted a thread; is seen to ask that people please keep their comments on track/or on the subject in discussion; or start another thread …..in most cases this has proven to be all that was needed; without any words from the Mods.

“Chit-Chat”…what is it?... From what I’ve seen; it may include anything from such subjects as….I cant sleep; I hate cats; my granny smells; Who the breeds the best… etc etc ETC.

Doesn’t chat include anything that is unrelated to herps?....or topic’s that don’t fit in other categories?....is it essential that chat; stays on track? 

Hix wrote: "It's also nice to know how many people do appreciate the work the mods do" 

I’m sure all would agree the mods do quite a good job; to which some members have expressed their appreciation; to which I agree….Having said that; is it worth asking; that the mod’s please take into consideration; the thoughts and opinions by some of it’s members…as expressed in this thread; in regards to the 'locking of threads'….surely it’s not that difficult to understand or implement. 

Hix wrote: "Many of the past members of this site (past, because they have been banned or suspended) have wanted to be Mods, but many we rejected because their behaviour in the forums indicated they would not remain objective." 

Why would one want to be a moderator?...Beat’s me…power!!!; i guess... ultimate power!!! :lol:
- just joking...don't panic 

Wredwilly wrote: "they will cop a heap of ineffective complaining from my end"

I guess that sums it up for a few of us then; to which i apologise....much rather discuss reptiles.....


----------



## cement (Aug 2, 2007)

Come on, put it to bed and lock this baby :lol:


----------



## wredwilly (Aug 3, 2007)

indicus is absolutely right, that is what i said. u can't fault the logic. here's a question if we we're livin in the 60's would we refer to the mod's as "the man", as in u know "stickin it to the man". now i dont know what they were trying to stick to the man, i hope they didnt grow up with monkeys or they might be resorting to throwing their own faesces. now i dont think even the mods deserve that. anyhow, have we tried reasoning with them? i mean they're people right?.... i hope so, cos if we're talkin aliens or some kind of talking lizard with a broadband connection, we up that ol' brown creek without a paddle, and i aint a good swimmer, seriously. well sometimes peoples opinions are a bit wild, isnt that free expression? i guess it comes down to whether they are abusing an individual or not, its cool to verbally attack the behavoir or attitude but not the person, thats a bit crappy. if u like crappy, go live with monkeys.

qotd


----------



## Hickson (Aug 3, 2007)

indicus said:


> Isn't it possible; simply to remove the offensive comments?.... a simple word of warning; from what I’ve seen in the past?....is this an easier solution that may please all concerned?



If there are one or two offensive comments, then the Mods will remove them. If there are several, and while we are removing them and issueing warnings and infractions more offensive posts go up, then we'll lock the thread.

Incidentally, issuing an infraction/warning is not as simple as clicking a button. We have to indicate which Rule has been broken, then send a message to the recipient explaining what they have done wrong. Then, a few minutes later, we have to read a PM where they complain about us being unfair. We respond, which takes more time away from Moderating, then they PM back again complaining, someone else PM's to complain that it's not fair they got an infraction and the other person didn't (who happens to be the first person PMing you) etc.

An example: late last year a member of the site (who had once been a Mod here) used a variation of a swear word as an adjective to describe something as being really bad. I deleted the word and replaced it with [deleted] , as I have done many times before. I didn't issue a warning, figuring the member would understand they couldn't use that word and wouldn't use it again. I was wrong.

The member PMed me complaining that he uses the word at home and therefore it was OK. He wasn't happy with the way I had removed it so publicly. He poiunted me to other things he thought were offensive. I didn't resond right away as I was looking at another thread and was handing out infractions. So he sent me another PM, he was obviously angrier and started swearing and calling me power hungry. Then he started a thread complaining about APS, and me in particular. I dleeted it and gave him an infraction, which prompted more abusive PMs and another thread.

In short, within a couple of hours he was banned permanently from the site. And all becaused I deleted a five letter word and didn't even bother to issue a warning. (and then we started getting very abusive emails).

To answer your question Indicus: sometimes a word of warning does work; sometimes it has no effect whatsoever.



Hix


----------

