# Rats



## sutto75 (Apr 2, 2011)

Very sad day i have just started breeding rats. Last week my first lot of pups was born
mum was doing an outstanding job and the pups where doing well. Last night i got my second lot of pups from my second female. i was very happy .
Then i looked in on mum 1 and all the babys had something in comon no heads mum had killed all the pups..
I feed them on 50% veg 50% dry dog food. Any reason why this would happen or is it just bad luck?


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## beeman (Apr 2, 2011)

Diet or lack there of


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## Choco (Apr 2, 2011)

Do you feed the veg and dog food separate? As in feed veg and when that's gone feed dog food until that s gone and so on? or are both available at the same time?

Cheers,
Allan


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## harley0402 (Apr 2, 2011)

stress can cause this


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## sutto75 (Apr 2, 2011)

veg and dog food together fresh every day.
I have put each fmale with a hide in a 40ltr tub in the carport away from any other animals so stress should be way down.


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## harley0402 (Apr 2, 2011)

my rats get a rat and mouse mix, mixed with crushed weet bix and sultana bran and oats. and i also give them some table scraps from my dinner.


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## saximus (Apr 2, 2011)

I hear lack of protein is a big cause of this but also too much protein...? Have you checked the dietary values of the dog biscuits you are using?


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## sutto75 (Apr 2, 2011)

well she was a bad girl and now has paid the price.. put her back with the male who has been with out a sex slave for 
over a week so in 21 days will see how she gos a second time....lol


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## harley0402 (Apr 2, 2011)

sutto75 said:


> well she was a bad girl and now has paid the price.. put her back with the male who has been with out a sex slave for
> over a week so in 21 days will see how she gos a second time....lol



dude, seriously


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## sutto75 (Apr 2, 2011)

please dont call me dude thats rude.....


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## JAS101 (Apr 2, 2011)

beeman said:


> Diet or lack there of


 yup a decent quality rodent pellet would fix that .


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## wranga (Apr 2, 2011)

maybe a lack of food


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 2, 2011)

That is way too much dried dog food, too much meat/protein can send them canibalistic. If you get a good quality rat mix and just supplement wit meat treats here and there your rats will be a lot healthier and this sort of thing should not happen.


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## norwich (Apr 2, 2011)

to much protein will cause this


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## sutto75 (Apr 2, 2011)

I thought that maybe a rat could do it in the first day or so but not after a week.
I have a grain mix that was feeding the rats its a mouse/rat mix but they would always eat the veg and dog food and not the grains.
So i will get some pellets and see how that go.


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## Kimbully (Apr 28, 2011)

Sometimes a first time mum can just freak out. She should be fine next time round. If she was split from the other female late pregnancy or just after birth it may have stressed her. If the females are separate, they may do better together?

Kim


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## The Devil (Apr 28, 2011)

Kimbully said:


> Sometimes a first time mum can just freak out. She should be fine next time round. If she was split from the other female late pregnancy or just after birth it may have stressed her. If the females are separate, they may do better together?
> 
> Kim



I think Kim has nailed it......The odd times that I see it here it is normally always a first time mother.
If I see it with the older girls then they get introduced to Mr. snake.


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## -Katana- (Apr 28, 2011)

How much protein do rats need?


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## garthy (May 1, 2011)

I imediately kill (and use for feed) rats that eat their pups. I had one recently that did it, she's now snake poo. However, since I have been feeding my rats a horse grain mix,they have not shown any inclination in eating their young. In fact they have increased production and improved survival rates of very large litters. Alot of people use dog food as the main source of nutrition for their rats, I do not agree with it. I will offer a few nuts (of dog food) now and again for variety, however, my rats generally will not eat it.
I know it's survival etc, but I think if a mum has to eat her babies then there can only be two things.... she's starving or *********n derranged. Kill her or feed her!


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## -Katana- (May 2, 2011)

I managed to dig up a lot of valuable and really interesting information in rat nutrition in my little internet wanderings.

Scientific journals have such a wealth of information.

I found this paper published on the _The National Academic Press_ website.

Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals, Fourth Revised Edition, 1995

And as a brief introduction....

Although the nutrient requirements of the laboratory rat are better known than those of other laboratory animals, there can be considerable disparity in estimated requirements as a consequence of the criteria used (Baker, 1986). For example, the amounts of nutrients required to sustain maximum growth of young rats may be different from the amounts needed to maintain tissue concentrations or to maximize functional measures such as enzyme activities. Moreover, nutrient requirements are not static; they change according to developmental state, reproductive activity, and age. There is also evidence of differences in requirements between males and females as well as among various inbred and outbred strains. The nutrient requirements listed in this chapter represent average values, but they may not suffice in all circumstances.


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## The Devil (May 2, 2011)

Check out this site, what they do and what they offer.

No, they won't sell to the public, only to research facilities.....

Animal Resources Centre, Western Australia


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## -Katana- (May 2, 2011)

The Devil said:


> <..snip...>.
> 
> No, they won't sell to the public, only to research facilities.....
> 
> Animal Resources Centre, Western Australia


 
DOH!

Bugger!


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## The Devil (May 3, 2011)

Yeah, you have to be able to produce a, end user ethics certificate.
They have some interesting breeds and also some good info.


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## Indysmum (May 5, 2011)

not sure what you can get in QLD, youd have to do a search. Most breeders recommend -Cummins, Barastoc, Laucke. There is others, but those seem be the most popular.
As a guide on prices, this is best I can get in Melb
Laucke 10kg-$15
Barastoc 20kg-$30
Cummins-40kg-$45

Those grain 'rat/mice' mixes in general are crap, youd be better feeding them the cardboard box it came in lol
Also if you fix diet, rule out environmental causes, and it happens repeatedly then perhaps she is just a bad mum.


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## sutto75 (May 5, 2011)

hey thanks for the info and advice from everyone. I changed her diet and all the rats to a mix made up by the local pet shop who breed there own rats and she has had her second litter for 8 days now and all 16 are doing well. Dont know if its a first time mum thing or diet but she is going good.
Having said that i have got mice since then a one was prego and had babies 9 in all. they where eating the mix from the box and now 4 days later there is 2 left.
So i will have to say its the diet that has been the problem.


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## Indysmum (May 14, 2011)

good to hear sutto! It might be worth your while joining rat forums too, alot of pet AND feeder breeders with all sorts of experience and very helpful. To combine both, there is an australian rat and mouse forum (australianratforum.com)
Glad you sorted that it was diet problem and were able fix it. Depending cost and availablity, you may find it worthwhile to source out rat/mice cubes/pallets from stock feeder. Reason I say this is usually petshops charge fortune.


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## lazylizzy (May 14, 2011)

does this canibalism with too much protien occure in mice too? sorry to crash the thread


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