# Taipan Bites Handler at Portland Christmas Picnic



## moosenoose (Dec 3, 2013)

When I first heard this I thought it must have been an escaped pet (being the snake was an inland taipan in Portland Victoria). The first report said it was a person bitten whilst at a picnic. Then further clarification revealed it was a handler whose demonstration went a little off the rails.

PS: Loved the comments at the bottom of the article.



> Taipan bites handler at Portland Christmas picnic
> 
> FAMILIES at a Christmas picnic in Portland yesterday were shocked when a reptile handler was bitten by a snake.
> 
> ...



*SOURCE:*
Taipan bites handler at Portland Christmas picnic | The Standard


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## Rlpreston (Dec 3, 2013)

I saw a little of this on Facebook yesterday but couldn't find any details at all. 

Quite a surprise for the demonstrator as well as the audience I would guess!


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## Renenet (Dec 3, 2013)

moosenoose said:


> PS: Loved the comments at the bottom of the article.



I see what you mean.


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## -Peter (Dec 4, 2013)

I heard that no antvenin was required. Great to hear.


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## tickerbox (Dec 4, 2013)

Renenet said:


> I see what you mean.



"a crowd of more than 300 people enjoyed a variety of entertainment that afternoon..." :shock:


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## moosenoose (Dec 4, 2013)

That is good news Peter. I hadn't heard it. Obviously just a love tap


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## Ramsayi (Dec 4, 2013)

Love this comment on the article.

"Also, for the record, Ray <what's his name> is a fully qualified scientist with vet qualifications..............................


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## Snapped (Dec 4, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Love this comment on the article.
> 
> "Also, for the record, Ray <what's his name> is a fully qualified scientist with vet qualifications..............................




My favorite piece of fiction.


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## butters (Dec 4, 2013)

Great that he is ok. No antivenom needed but a trip to the laundry may be in order.
Any word on who the extremely lucky guy is? 

As for the comments. Surely he can't be serious with those comments? Anyone reading those comments would know its him using an alias. Even if you had no idea on the history it's obvious that the posters are shamelessly promoting his brand?

If its not him will they get sued for the use of the registered words and phrases used in the post?

Glad the outcome for the handler was ok.


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## moosenoose (Dec 4, 2013)

I've been getting a good chuckle out of the comments section. Some of the responses have been hilarious


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## Red-Ink (Dec 4, 2013)

moosenoose said:


> I've been getting a good chuckle out of the comments section. Some of the responses have been hilarious



So many fake names in there and only one legit comment


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## mmafan555 (Dec 7, 2013)

The good thing with Neuro toxic venom is that you don't even necessarily need anti-venom....Just a ventilator or similar breathing machine and close careful monitoring....through with the Taipan having hemotoxic venom aswell things could get serious and complicated without anti venom.


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## eipper (Dec 8, 2013)

MMAFAN555,

"The good thing with Neuro toxic venom is that you don't even necessarily need anti-venom....Just a ventilator or similar breathing machine and close careful monitoring....through with the Taipan having hemotoxic venom aswell things could get serious and complicated without anti venom."

Seriously you have no idea about what you are talking about. Neurotoxins cause paralysis to groups of muscles by interrupting the electrical signals sent from the brain. Whether they the block the receptor on the muscle or the production/ release of Acetylcholine, they work on a range of skeletal muscles not just the muscle surrrounding the diaphragm. So a ventilator while helpful will not circumvent all actions of the neurotoxins within the snake venom in question. By the way, Taipans have very weak haemolytic function but have strong procoagulants.


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## JrFear (Dec 8, 2013)

Those comments are a good laugh!


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## mmafan555 (Dec 19, 2013)

eipper said:


> MMAFAN555,
> 
> "The good thing with Neuro toxic venom is that you don't even necessarily need anti-venom....Just a ventilator or similar breathing machine and close careful monitoring....through with the Taipan having hemotoxic venom aswell things could get serious and complicated without anti venom."
> 
> Seriously you have no idea about what you are talking about. Neurotoxins cause paralysis to groups of muscles by interrupting the electrical signals sent from the brain. Whether they the block the receptor on the muscle or the production/ release of Acetylcholine, they work on a range of skeletal muscles not just the muscle surrrounding the diaphragm. So a ventilator while helpful will not circumvent all actions of the neurotoxins within the snake venom in question. By the way, Taipans have very weak haemolytic function but have strong procoagulants.



People frequently treat Neurotoxic bites with ventilators and in fact victims often need to be put on ventilator EVEN after they have been given Anti-venom as the anti venom does not work that well once the toxin has binded to the synapse (several hours after the bite)...If you are put on a ventilator you are very likely to survive a Elapid bite even if you aren't given anti venom...All the evidence supports this. And in some instances Anti-venom can be very ineffective in treating bites (unless it is given very quickly) and people must be put on ventilator anyway even when given anti venom.

The paralyzing of the diaphragm is what kills the victim 99 percent of the time...So that is the main problem and the ventilator is a excellent solution to that problem.

Taipan venom causes you blood to not clot (through it is not as severe as what you see in Viper bites)...The effect of the bites causes blood to NOT clot properly...You have it backwards...It cause anti-coagulation and bleeding in victims.

Clinical study on Papuan Taipan bites (Anti-venom was given to every patient who showed symptoms yet STILL 42 percent needed intubation and 37 percent needed ventilation by a breathing machine even after they were given Anti venom.) Ventilation was very effective at preventing death.

*Snake bites by the Papuan taipan (Oxyuranus scutellatus canni): paralysis, hemostatic and electrocardiographic abnormalities, and effects of antivenom.*

"One hundred sixty-six patients with enzyme immunoassay-proven bites by taipans (Oxyuranus scutellatus canni) were studied in Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea. One hundred thirty-nine (84%) showed clinical evidence of envenoming: local signs were trivial, but most developed hemostatic disorders and neurotoxicity. *The blood of 77% of the patients was incoagulable* *and 35% bled spontaneously, *usually from the gums. Fifty-one per cent had microscopic hematuria. Neurotoxic signs (ptosis, ophthalmoplegia, bulbar paralysis, and peripheral muscular weakness) developed in 85%. *Endotracheal intubation was required in 42% and mechanical ventilation in 37%.* Electrocardiographic abnormalities (sinus bradycardia and septal T wave inversion) were found in 52% of a group of 69 unselected patients. Specific antivenom raised against Australian taipan venom was effective in stopping spontaneous systemic bleeding and restoring blood coagulability but, in most cases, it neither reversed nor prevented the evolution of paralysis even when given within a few hours of the bite. However, early antivenom treatment was associated statistically with decreased incidence and severity of neurotoxic signs. * The low case fatality rate of 4.3% is attributable mainly to the use of mechanical ventilation,* a technique rarely available in Papua New Guinea. Earlier use of increased doses of antivenoms of improved specificity might prove more effective."

Snake bites by the Papuan taipan (Oxyuranu... [Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

And it's not just for Taipans...Mamba Bites and other highly venomous Neurotoxic snake bites are often successfully treated with a combination of Anti Venom and Ventilators...The problem comes from Neurotoxic snakes like Cobras that have other aspects of their venoms which cause other symptoms like tissue damage etc and to a lesser extent Taipans with their hemotoxic aspect of their venom...Which obviously a Ventilator can't help....And Anti Venom is needed


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## Stuart (Dec 19, 2013)

Mmafan, what is being said is that neurotoxins don't just affect diaphragm muscle control. They attack the brain synapses and because of that, its not just loss of oxygen that will kill you.


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## Firepac (Dec 19, 2013)

From CSL Antivenom Handbook - Taipan Antivenom "Both species of Taipan have similar venom components including pre and post synaptic neurotoxins, *powerful procoagulants,* myolysins.....the coagulopathy is often profound, with complete defibrination within an hour of the bite, and potential for major haemorrhage".

From WCH Clinical Toxinology Resources the effect on the haemostatic system of Australian Taipans "*Coagulopathy and haemorrhage". 

*Whilst it may seem contradictory that procoagulants cause haemorrhage, my understanding is that they consume the fibrinogen leaving the blood devoid of clotting ability thereby causing haemorrhage.


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## eipper (Dec 20, 2013)

You stated that you don't require antivenom to effectively treat a taipan bite.... Show me that in anyone of those Oxyuranus envenomation case histories that the patient received NO antivenom. As also stated by Firepac it's the procoagulants that cause the anti coag effects not a hemotoxin as you stated.

You might be keen but you have a lot to learn before making grandiose claims without a factual basis. Remind everyone your experience with taipans, their envenomations or any other elapids for that manner.


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 21, 2013)

A Medical Dictionary definition...
*Procoagulant:* Relating to or denoting substances that promote the conversion in the blood of the inactive protein prothrombin to the clotting enzyme thrombin.

The term “procoagulants” applied to snake venom toxins seems inappropriate when their effect is actually to remove the body’s ability to clot blood and their dangerous effect is internal (or external) haemorrhage (uncontrolled bleeding). So how does one reconcile the apparent contradiction?

Blood clotting involves a number of concurrent chemical factors and changes which combine to ultimately change prothrombin into thrombin, which then converts fibrinogen, a single protein molecule in the blood, into fibrin strands, made by joining together fibrinogen molecules. These strands form a physical mesh to which platelets (bits of cells designed to assist with clotting) attach, forming a clot that itself adheres to a rupture in the wall of a blood vessel (limited by size of course). 

Procoagulant snake venom directly converts prothrombin into thrombin. This may or may not result in a myriad of tiny blood clots throughout the entire body. As a result of the conversion of all the fibrinogen to fibrin, this triggers release of enzymes to break down the fibrin. So the blood ends up stripped of fibrinogen and its ability to clot. In the absence of any further procoagulant toxin, it takes the liver some 12 hours or more to produce and replace the amount of fibrinogen required by the body.

Hope that clears up that point.

Blue

- - - Updated - - -

A couple of other technical points that obviously need clarifying...

*Hemotoxin* is a general term for any toxins which affect the blood or blood vessels. 
*Procoagulant* is a more specific term for a hemotoxin that affects the bloods clotting ability by causing formation and destruction of fibrin by converting prothrombin to thrombin.


Nerve cells connect with other nerve cells or with muscle cells. Theses connections are not direct but consist of a minute physical gap between the two called a *synapse*. Nerve impulses are transmitted across this gap by the movement of chemicals called *neurotransmitters*. There are many different neurotransmitters in the body and they have different effects, depending. However, the neurotransmitter that connects all nerves to voluntary/skeletal muscles is *acetylcholine*. It is this neurotransmitter that is affected by elapid venom neurotoxins. The resultant danger from this toxin alone is respiratory failure due to paralysis of the thoracic muscles (diaphragm and inter-costals). 

Acetylcholine also has a minor but non-critical role in the central nervous system.

Blue


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## GBWhite (Dec 21, 2013)

Google is a very useful tool hey Blue.

Links for anyone interested in reading about venom toxicity. The top one deals specifically with Taipans. 

taipan snake venoms and snakebites

article - Australian Prescriber

Procoagulant proteins from snake venoms. [Haemostasis. 2001 May-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI

Cheers,

George.


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## andynic07 (Dec 21, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> A Medical Dictionary definition...
> *Procoagulant:* Relating to or denoting substances that promote the conversion in the blood of the inactive protein prothrombin to the clotting enzyme thrombin.
> 
> The term “procoagulants” applied to snake venom toxins seems inappropriate when their effect is actually to remove the body’s ability to clot blood and their dangerous effect is internal (or external) haemorrhage (uncontrolled bleeding). So how does one reconcile the apparent contradiction?
> ...


I take it that this particular venom does not effect the synapse connections within the brain itself. Also is there any recorded permanent effects or longterm effects on the synapse connections?


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 21, 2013)

Much of what I have written derives from my existing knowledge of human physiology. I have had to educate myself on the specifics of the pathology of snake toxins and the terminology. Google is indeed a powerful learning tool and a lot less arduous that going to the library like I used to do on a regular basis. 

*George*, you will find there quite a few more recent studies but I really do appreciate the reference. Thank you!

The effects of neurotoxins on synaptic transmission are classified into two groups – pre-synaptic and post-synaptic. The effects of pre-synaptic toxins are not reversed by anti-venom where as the effects of post-synaptic are neutralised readily by anti-venom. The following reference explains why...
WCH Clinical Toxinology Resources

*Andy*,
It is not a case of “this particular venom”. The central nervous system is not a target for snake venom toxin. Some non-Australian species, e.g. mamba, can affect cardiac muscle contraction. Recovery from the effects of pre-synaptic toxins takes a measure of time while anti-venom immediately neutralises the effects of post-synaptic neurotoxins. 

Blue


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## andynic07 (Dec 21, 2013)

Sorry [MENTION=20726]Bluetongue1[/MENTION] I should have phrased it as this type of venom (neurotoxins). How is it deemed that the central nervous system is not the "target" of snake venom toxin? I would think that this would be rather handy in killing prey items to be eaten. I apologise if this is answered in the link that you have posted as I have not had a chance to read that yet but intend on doing so.

Cheers
Andy


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 21, 2013)

*Andy*,
The explanation is quite simple when you think about it. What are the desired results of injecting venom into a prey organism? First up is that you do not want the prey item to be able to run away any great distance and second you want it to die or be immobiliused so that can be readily eaten. Both of these are achieved through interfering with the nerve-muscle junctions.

Interfering with nerve-nerve junctions in the brain will produce abnormal behaviour which, due to its unpredictable nature, may well be counter productive to acquiring envenomed prey.

Blue


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