# 5 Questions Re: Heat Cord



## Cypher69 (May 26, 2013)

I've never used a heat cord & I was wondering;

i) Can you use silicon to secure heat cord to a tile or ply wood board?

ii) I understand plywood may not be the best medium to conduct heat through but do you think there would be sufficient enough heat to go through 8mm plywood flush against the glass bottom of a fish tank?

iii) Would the heat cord be damaged at all under the full weight of a fish tank/ vivarium... & with OR without a sheet of styrofoam?

iv) Would it be safe to lay the heat cord inside the viv with simply pebbles on top of it?

v) Can I cable tie the thermostat probe to the actual heat cord & if so, at the beginning of the cord or more to the mid-length of the cord?

Cheers in advance.


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## gaboonviper85 (May 26, 2013)

Securing the cable with silicone is fine.

the hear transfer threw wood will be very low no matter how thin...best to secure it directly to glass if you put it on the bottom outside of the tank and put small risers under the tank to let air circulate 

yes it can pinch the cable...rises as stated above will solve that.

you can put the cable in the cage but I would use a ceramic tile that can be cleaned and will distribute heat better than stones.

put the probe anywhere on the cable as long as the snake can't touch it and give it false readings but the probe needs to be set on the cable that will be the actual part of cable heating the snake


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## Paintbrushturkey (May 26, 2013)

i) yes
ii) no, have the heatcord in direct contact with the glass of the tank
iii) yes, use feet on the tank to avoid damaging the heatcord
iv) yes, has worked for me so far (not sure if there are non waterproof heatcords, wouldn't recommend it for those)
v) I wouldn't, simply bury your thermostat probe in your substrate (provided it is water proof)


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## Cypher69 (May 26, 2013)

Any issues with styrofoam touching the heat cord?


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## gaboonviper85 (May 26, 2013)

Cypher69 said:


> Any issues with styrofoam touching the heat cord?



its flammable and has a low flash point...i would highly advise against it!


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## andynic07 (May 26, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> its flammable and has a low flash point...i would highly advise against it!


Melting point is 75 degrees celsius , flash point is 346 degrees celsius and auto ignition point is 491 degrees celsius for styrofoam brand polystyrene.


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## gaboonviper85 (May 26, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Melting point is 75 degrees celsius , flash point is 346 degrees celsius and auto ignition point is 491 degrees celsius for styrofoam brand polystyrene.



electrical heat cable i could see getting to 346 deg easy in a malfunction...


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## Skeptic (May 26, 2013)

Heres a little stand I made up for a 2ft tank that houses a couple of geckos. The glas sits a couple of mm's off the heat cord and it works really well  Sorry about the massive pics.


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## ronhalling (May 26, 2013)

Very very nice job Skeptic, very professional looking, you could build a heap of these and sell them easy, hmmmm wondering now how a setup like that would go under a melamine enclosure, WTG buddy  .....................................Ron


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## Skeptic (May 26, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> Very very nice job Skeptic, very professional looking, you could build a heap of these and sell them easy, hmmmm wondering now how a setup like that would go under a melamine enclosure, WTG buddy  .....................................Ron



Thanks


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## andynic07 (May 26, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> electrical heat cable i could see getting to 346 deg easy in a malfunction...


I have not heard of many heat cords catching fire. I would more be worried about the fumes being given off at 75 degrees as this temperature is a lot more achievable than 346 degrees. Either way I would be using a thermostat to greatly reduce the chances of this happening. Check out this thread about heat cords. [h=1]Heat cord timer?[/h]


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## Cypher69 (May 27, 2013)

Well trial run this afternoon. I've attached the heat cord (15 watt,2 mtr,waterproof) to a mesh with thermostat probe then a layer of pebbles on top, inside the viv.
So far the temp gun is reading various pebbles at 20-24C. I've got the thermostat set at 30C but I've a feeling the temps won't pass 25C.
I'll decide tomorrow whether to scrap the heat cord or not...


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## Bluetongue1 (May 27, 2013)

You are allowing the heat to spread in all directions, heating both air and pebbles. The pebbles are not in full contact with each other and so conduction of heat is limited. At the same time the air-filled spaces between the pebbles will warm up from contact with the warm pebbles and the heat cord. The heated air will rise (convection), taking the warmth with it... hence your lower temperatures. There are two solutions. The first is to use a higher wattage heat cord – 25 W might do it, otherwise you would need to move up to 40 W or 50 W. The alternative is you change the way you are using it.

A particularly efficient and effective use of heat cord is to sand which it between a thin layer of wood and a slate or ceramic tile. For a 15 W a 30 cm square tile will give you a constant temperature around 35[SUP]o[/SUP]C, without a thermostat. The wood is a good insulator, while the tiles are good conductors of heat. Therefore, the majority of the heat given off by the cord is taken up by the tiles. Their conductive properties allow the heat to spread out through them, providing an even temperature at the surface i.e. no hot spots. Both ceramic and slate have high specific heats. This means they require a lot of heat to raise their temperatures by each 1[SUP]o[/SUP]C. So a large, cold reptile that plonks itself on a tile, will be able to extract a significant amount of heat without unduly dropping the temperature of the tile. It also means if they are turned off of an evening, they continue to give out heat for a significant amount of time. The use of a tile is an extremely effective method of reptiles gaining heat as there is a large amount of body surface in direct contact with the heat source and no loss of heat to the air. To maintain a natural looking vivarium, slate is the go. Just shop around until you find the desired colours.

Blue


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## Snowman (May 27, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> electrical heat cable i could see getting to 346 deg easy in a malfunction...


You are dreaming. Care to explain the logistics of a malfunction in which this will happen?


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## crocodile_dan (May 27, 2013)

I'm not agreeing with gaboonviper, but being from the states he might be mixing Celsius with Fahrenheit?


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## slide (May 27, 2013)

If you place the themostat probe AGAINST the cord you will have trouble reaching the desired temps further away from the cord. By moving the thermostat probe a little further from the heat source it will give a better reading (within reason-dont place it too far away from the cord). 
Also the lower ambient temperatures will mean that your heat cord will have to work harder to keep up. 

Aaron


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## andynic07 (May 27, 2013)

crocodile_dan said:


> I'm not agreeing with gaboonviper, but being from the states he might be mixing Celsius with Fahrenheit?


You may be right but that is still about 175 degrees celsius and my first post was clear in stating celsius.


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## Rogue5861 (May 27, 2013)

I have insulated my woodies tub heatcord with styrofoam as it was all escaping and not heating enough, i have thermostat prob set just away from the heat cord set at 33c an the plastic tub sits around 28-32c.

I havent had any issues with styrofoam melting at all, as long as the cord doesnt malfunction and the thermostat stays true it shouldnt cause any melting.


Rick


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## gaboonviper85 (May 27, 2013)

yes i was referring to deg F. there are other non flammable or at least self extinguishing insulation to be had...Styrofoam is a poor choice as is wood...many people have burned their stores and houses down killing all their animals because of failing heat elements and thermostats...its not worth the risk unless your heat cable at full power cant get above a certain temp.

thats just my opinion...not like its hard to find other materials that will be better.


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## gaboonviper85 (May 27, 2013)

either way do what you want...feel like im being blasted because there are several stories of fires that i know of that could have been avoided and i dont trust products "made for reptiles" as they are made on the cheap!


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## andynic07 (May 27, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> yes i was referring to deg F. there are other non flammable or at least self extinguishing insulation to be had...Styrofoam is a poor choice as is wood...many people have burned their stores and houses down killing all their animals because of failing heat elements and thermostats...its not worth the risk unless your heat cable at full power cant get above a certain temp.
> 
> thats just my opinion...not like its hard to find other materials that will be better.


You are right mate that there are better easy to get materials than styrofoam. I was not having a go at you just posted some facts that I pulled from the net. All of the fire stories that I have heard of have all been related to heat mats and I have only heard good things about heat cord. I always use a thermostat and always use a tile between my heat source and enclosure but only use solid timber under the heating device and as of yet have had no problems. I am not sure why heat mats tend to fail more than heat cords but that seems like the definite trend here in Australia. It may have something to do with the installation and a heat mat is easier to be installed incorrectly (no air gap) because of their flat nature whereas a cord will naturally keep air flow spaces around it with its shape.


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## Snowman (May 27, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> either way do what you want...feel like im being blasted because there are several stories of fires that i know of that could have been avoided and i dont trust products "made for reptiles" as they are made on the cheap!


We all know the risks. But I'm a stickler for facts. So when someone says that a heat cord malfunction could create temps over 300 degrees I'd like to know how and what this statement is based on. Andy and I are electricians so we have a particular interest in all things electrical. I can't think of anyway that a cord could malfunction to create such temps.


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## gaboonviper85 (May 28, 2013)

Depending on what heat cord and wattage it sure as heck can melt/burn plastic! I personally had heat cord melt my animal plastics cage so I switched to radiant heat panels!


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## andynic07 (May 28, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> Depending on what heat cord and wattage it sure as heck can melt/burn plastic! I personally had heat cord melt my animal plastics cage so I switched to radiant heat panels!


Whilst a radiant heat panel has some protection from fire the panel still requires a thermostat or it may reach temperatures that will be hot to the touch and also could possibly heat your vivarium to a temperature that will kill your reptile.


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## gaboonviper85 (May 28, 2013)

I'm aware of this....but I'm less worried about a dead snake over a burned down house.


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## andynic07 (May 28, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> I'm aware of this....but I'm less worried about a dead snake over a burned down house.


You are talking about a heat cord melting a plastic enclosure, I think that a radiant heat panel without a thermostat would quite easily melt a plastic enclosure as well if that is what you are referring to when you talk about a house getting burnt down. I think that correct usage and inspection of a particular item is the key to safety.


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## Paintbrushturkey (May 28, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> electrical heat cable i could see getting to 346 deg easy in a malfunction...


Please don't take this the wrong way... but that is utter rubbish, heat cords function by means of what is best described as a controlled short circuit in the heating part of the cord, because of this, unlike normal wires a malfunctioning heat cord is unlikely to heat up when it breaks, it simply stops working, this is because as the heat cord ages the resistance of the heat cord to electrical current increases, thus reducing current flow and thus heat output. The only scenario that could produce an increase in temperature is if somehow a heatcord became shorter (which will not happen unless you purposely dismantle and rewire it)
For the record the Flash point of wood is around 300C... melamine is 345C To my knowledge most of use use these materials readily in our enclosures... there shouldn't be an issue with styrene sheeting being in contact with the heatcord (it works fine for me anyways..)...


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## gaboonviper85 (May 28, 2013)

All I can say is I had a bran new animal plastics cage with supplied heat cable and my thermostat couldn't control it unless the probe was directly secured to the wire itself....so when I first fired it up it melted the bottom of the cage....it was too hot to touch so after that I used low watt heat panels or low watt heat tape that could only reach 120 deg F at full power


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## gaboonviper85 (May 28, 2013)

And yes the cage had a slot cut for probe placement so that was not my negligence...I was the only person who reported such problems that I'm aware of and may have had faulty cable but I won't take that risk again.


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## disintegratus (May 28, 2013)

Personally I've had 2 heat cords malfunction. 1 died for no discernable reason, and the other one had only been used for 3 hours when my sister's stupid kitten chewed through it. On both occasions, they simply stopped working and went cold.


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## Snowman (May 28, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> Depending on what heat cord and wattage it sure as heck can melt/burn plastic! I personally had heat cord melt my animal plastics cage so I switched to radiant heat panels!


As the Aussie's always say "pictures or it never happened". 
Even with the silly 110v of the usa I can't see it happening with our superior and more powerful 240v system. Heat mats I can, but not cord, even an 80w cord. When you understand how a cord works its obvious that they have a max temp output.


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## gaboonviper85 (May 28, 2013)

This happened when I was 18...that cage has long been sold! I have long deleted photos or lost a hardrive or two in those years! I really have no reason to lie so believe as you wish....at this point I don't really care what you think lol


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## Snowman (May 28, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> This happened when I was 18...that cage has long been sold! I have long deleted photos or lost a hardrive or two in those years! I really have no reason to lie so believe as you wish....at this point I don't really care what you think lol


It's imperative when giving information on a public forum to new snake keepers that everyone posts facts, rather than fiction. Your original statement that cord can get up to 346 degrees during a malfunction is false and helps no one. Even if you thought Fahrenheit it still wouldn't get to 174 degrees Celsius. 
Without pictures it would seem you are simply trying to save face and have said that you have seen it melt plastic. Surely if this was the case you would have led with that info. 
Im still waiting to hear the logistics of how a cord can malfunction and how said malfunction can create such excessive heat. 
I encase 80w cords in plastic to make panels. The max surface temp I can get is around 60-80 degrees Celsius. That is running at 100% with a 40 degree ambient temp. Considering the temps to melt polystyrene need to be over 300 degrees I'm still mystified as to why you would say this is achievable. 
I'm only interested in facts. A sound explanation, without hear say would be appreciated.


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## gaboonviper85 (May 28, 2013)

heat cable - Page 2

you can choose to believe or not believe...read the thread not just the artical.


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## andynic07 (May 28, 2013)

As stated incorrect installation can lead to fires. The heat cord was pinched causing a spark to ignite the fire and not heat produced from the heat cord. The temperatures to ignite the plastic heat cord are a lot lower when you introduce sparking but the auto ignition point at which it will ignite spontaneously is still higher than the operating temperatures.


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## Snowman (May 28, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> heat cable - Page 2
> 
> you can choose to believe or not believe...read the thread not just the artical.



I chose not to believe you.

From flicking through the link it turns out heat tape was the culprit in that instance? Again it's about your OWN experience and giving advice based on such. Not hear say of others. The link you provided is using a USA cord and supply. Their electrical standards are not very high on the world scale.
Keep in mind we have a much higher standard in Australia. Our cords have to meet those standards and when they fail, our domestic wiring systems will pick up unbalanced loads etc. In most instances with cord it would trip the breaker or RCD. Though really the most comon problem with cord is open circuit where the element simpy breaks. Nothing will happen in this instance and the cord stays cold..

*HAS ANYONE HAD AN AUSTRALIAN CORD BURN OR MELT???? PLEASE SHARE IF SO.....

*Once again, back to the original statement, please explain how this could happen?


gaboonviper85 said:


> electrical heat cable i could see getting to 346 deg easy in a malfunction...


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## Bluetongue1 (May 29, 2013)

gaboonviper85 said:


> ...feel like im being blasted because there are several stories of fires that i know of that could have been avoided and i dont trust products "made for reptiles" as they are made on the cheap!


 If you buy cheap then you can expect to get cheap. There are also reputable suppliers of reptile products, who not only supply quality goods but also a guarantee of their quality when used appropriately.


It is apparent that the heating appliances which you are citing as examples to vindicate your generalisations, are just not the same as the Australian appliances. For example, the “heat cable” that came with your Animal Plastics Tub is obviously totally different to Australian “heat cords” (as explained by *PaintbrushTurkey*). The cords range from15 W to 80 W and I have seen an 80W cord used to heat 4 large plastic tubs, with the tubs sitting directly on the cord and no thermostat required. You can hardly expect to agree when you are talking about different items. 

Blue


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## gaboonviper85 (May 29, 2013)

Yeah I can understand that!

many people have praised the animal plastics heat cord but I found it it was for melting snow on your roof....though I'm the only one I know that had this issue I've learned from it and I use very low watt heat elements and I try to isolate the element in a non flammable or self extinguishing plastic....PVC I believe will coat itself in a thick black carbon coating that will suffocate flame in the event of fire....though it out gasses this is of much less concern to me personally than fire.


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## Cypher69 (May 29, 2013)

Another point...& y'all will prob say it's just me...but as far as buying Aust-made reptile products...every product I've bought either from a pet shop OR online reptile suppliers have never come with instructions regarding installation or usage. I've always relied on hear-say & photographs on message boards such as this one.


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## Bluetongue1 (May 29, 2013)

I don’t know why that would be. A wander through my local pet shop indicates that pretty much only non-electrical related products and lighting globes do not have instructions for use. In addition, ZooMed and Reptile One, for example, also provide instructions or product manuals on their websites for products of this nature. Easily checked out.

What your experience does reaffirm is the point I made earlier – that the experiences of any given individual should not be used as the basis of making generalisations. Relate them by all means, but do so in context, as you have done here. 

Another point, from earlier posts - beware putting across hearsay as fact. Just because someone on the web said so in public does not make it fact. It depends on who that someone is and how they came in possession of the relevant information, as to how much credence it should be given. In this respect it invariably pays to be cynical rather than accepting and to therefore actively seek out independent and reliable verification before believing.

As *Snowman* pointed out, and very rightly so, it is important that we get the information correct on a forum such as this, in which many come to learn.

Blue


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