# Jag RPM differences



## Jimi (May 22, 2010)

Can someone please explain the differences in the two morphs.


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## chicka (May 22, 2010)

none there the same morph


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

one in the same


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## ihaveherps (May 22, 2010)

spelling


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## Jimi (May 22, 2010)

What are the chances that the RPM gene came here from overseas?


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## Greenmad (May 22, 2010)

Jimi said:


> What are the chances that the RPM gene came here from overseas?


 
lol pretty high


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## CodeRed (May 22, 2010)

Jimi said:


> What are the chances that the RPM gene came here from overseas?



Id say very high and through multiple sources too


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## Jason (May 22, 2010)

Jimi said:


> What are the chances that the RPM gene came here from overseas?


 
RPM's ARE Jags, they are just been sold under a different name here in australia. Its very similar to the GTP situation. people call them RPMs because if they advertise them as jags, they will be admitting to owning/breeding/selling animals that either are, or were breed from illegally imported animals. technically they are exotics because if they are RPM's then they are in fact carrying the DNA from exotic lines, some of which contain irian jaya 'blood', hence are literally exotic crosses. 

Why is it being done?? simple... they look great and they have a lot of potential with different morph combinations. 
it'll be interesting to see what names are given to granite jayas (a true exotics species) and zebra jungles when they are available.


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## ShadowDragon (May 22, 2010)

The difference? In one case you're flagrantly marketing animals from overseas collections and in the other you're marketing animals you're pretending aren't from overseas collections even though anyone with a clue knows they are.


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

wouldent be to long before people advertise the offspring as jags, afterall they got them legally on theyre licence by other licenced people so DECC has no grounds to take them


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## syeph8 (May 22, 2010)

Jason said:


> RPM's ARE Jags, they are just been sold under a different name here in australia. Its very similar to the GTP situation. people call them RPMs because if they advertise them as jags, they will be admitting to owning/breeding/selling animals that either are, or were breed from illegally imported animals. technically they are exotics because if they are RPM's then they are in fact carrying the DNA from exotic lines, some of which contain irian jaya 'blood', hence are literally exotic crosses.
> 
> Why is it being done?? simple... they look great and they have a lot of potential with different morph combinations.
> it'll be interesting to see what names are given to granite jayas (a true exotics species) and zebra jungles when they are available.



i was under the impression that irian jaya is genetically the same as our own proserpine carpets? if so, would not nessicarily be classed as containing exotic DNA. also slightly moot considering the allowance of PNG GTP's. (as you have previously stated)


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

iran jaya and png carpet - Morelia Spilota Harrisoni


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## Jason (May 22, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> i was under the impression that irian jaya is genetically the same as our own proserpine carpets? if so, would not nessicarily be classed as containing exotic DNA. also slightly moot considering the allowance of PNG GTP's. (as you have previously stated)


 
thats news to me. either way, they are still regarded as a seperate sub species as kenshin stated and are still exotics regardless.


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

also i think decc took blood samples of sxr pure jags and proved theyare in fact pure mcdowelli, could be wrong though


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## Jimi (May 22, 2010)

Southern Cross Reptiles - Tanami Woma Hatchlings

I fail to see how they can be pure mcdowelli .


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

Jimi said:


> Southern Cross Reptiles - Tanami Woma Hatchlings
> 
> They might be mcdowelli x RPM.
> 
> I fail to see how they can be pure mcdowelli .




Jags/RPM are just a genetic morph of mcdowelli same as an albino darwin is still a varigata


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## PilbaraPythons (May 22, 2010)

Kenshin
Just because someone acquires a reptile through licence doesn't prevent the wildlife authorities from having it seized. Under the Crime Confiscation Act ,suspect reptiles can be taken under the provisions for tainted property. This has happened on a few occasions in QLD, and I have been a victim of it myself.


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## Fantazmic (May 22, 2010)

can i ask something as a newbie...and i feel like a numbnut asking it

what does RPM stand for and what does Jag stand for.....i am presuming these are jungle carpet crosses....sorry I am really confused and I am trying to understand the new trend with snakies 

Regards

Elizabeth


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

a jag- jaguar is a name amercans gave a genetic morph of the coastal carpet python that causes a great reduction in pattern leaving most of the body covered in the relativly light base colour
RPM- is a jag but its a name used here it means reduced pattern morph

ahhh pilbara i thought that if they had been bred for afew generations and had been purchased in good faith that there was no real proving it all they can do is prove its a coastal carpet python and not a cross?


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## syeph8 (May 22, 2010)

Spikey_Delight said:


> can i ask something as a newbie...and i feel like a numbnut asking it
> 
> what does RPM stand for and what does Jag stand for.....i am presuming these are jungle carpet crosses....sorry I am really confused and I am trying to understand the new trend with snakies
> 
> ...



RPM i belive stands for "reduced patterned morelia" (that was my interpretation instead of morph) and jags are a co-dominant morph of coastal carpet python that occured over in the uk (dont think it originated in america). to the best of my understanding, this occurred with pure coastal lines. since then, the laws in the uk have allowed them to be crossbred with several other forms of morelia for different behavioural and aesthetic attributes. some argue that there are no pure coastal jags as they were often crossed with smaller species like irian jaya or jungle carpet python to reduce size (it was my understanding, again, that jungles were more commonly used because of their brighter colours, but how would any of us really know unless we have been involved with this developing trend overseas ourselves). 

Sye


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## Boney (May 22, 2010)

so what would happen if you bought some pythons that you honestly thought where captive breed because you asked the seller 20 times to tell you the truth ,are these captive breed ...and they say yes i breed them ,and was recommended by someone you thought you could trust. then the person gets investigated for example poaching and other crimes. then say parks and wildlife look into everyone they sold to .. can they take your animals without compensation or how would that work. ? not that i care now as most of these animals died a short time after i picked them up thank christ i had them in a different room to my other animals . its just i guess i never seen so many ticks and skin worms on captive breed animals ...


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## Fantazmic (May 22, 2010)

Thatks Syeph and Kenshin for answering my question now I understand what everyone is talking about lol

Elizabeth


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## Bushfire (May 22, 2010)

ANTARESIA1 said:


> so what would happen if you bought some pythons that you honestly thought where captive breed because you asked the seller 20 times to tell you the truth ,are these captive breed ...and they say yes i breed them ,and was recommended by someone you thought you could trust. then the person gets investigated for example poaching and other crimes. then say parks and wildlife look into everyone they sold to .. can they take your animals without compensation or how would that work. ? not that i care now as most of these animals died a short time after i picked them up thank christ i had them in a different room to my other animals . its just i guess i never seen so many ticks and skin worms on captive breed animals ...



The wildlife authorities can and have done so previously just come over and take them with no compensation at all. All of them have always maintained the line that its the buyers responisbility to ensure that they are buying legal specimens and that if their is any doubt to walk away from the transaction. The only way you can try and get compensation is to sue the seller.

I believe SA have already signalled moves against jags. I know that at a previous enforcement gathering (where all the wildlife agencies get together and talk about recent trends and enforcement activities) they have talked about jags and Ill be surprised if across the board more jags dont get taken.


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

Bushfire said:


> The wildlife authorities can and have done so previously just come over and take them with no compensation at all. All of them have always maintained the line that its the buyers responisbility to ensure that they are buying legal specimens and that if their is any doubt to walk away from the transaction. The only way you can try and get compensation is to sue the seller.
> 
> I believe SA have already signalled moves against jags. I know that at a previous enforcement gathering (where all the wildlife agencies get together and talk about recent trends and enforcement activities) they have talked about jags and Ill be surprised if across the board more jags dont get taken.


 
wouldent you be pissed that you pay 5k for an rpm pair then decc takes it, i know if i eventually get them ill be staying quiet as a mouse about them, also by that lodgic wouldent they confiscate GTP's that show exotic traits and caramel coastals which clearly look like they came from paul harris


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## Snake_Whisperer (May 22, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> RPM i belive stands for "reduced patterned morelia" (that was my interpretation instead of morph) Sye


 
No, RPM stands for Reduced Pattern Modified. Source is the originator of the term (on this forum at least).


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## syeph8 (May 22, 2010)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> No, RPM stands for Reduced Pattern Modified. Source is the originator of the term (on this forum at least).


 
ahhh. well there you go! who is the source?


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## Boney (May 22, 2010)

well thats pretty harsh for the wildlife department to just leave it up to the buyer to do the investigating . if the seller is giving you a name and permit number thats all they are asking you for in there books . christ they should be doing there jobs properly and investigating the situation and get the crooks the supplyers . not just punish the victim even more beacause he bought a pretty snake he liked .


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## Inkage (May 22, 2010)

So the wildlife departments specifically targets animals tagged ''Jag''? So we can just call them ''RPMS'' or make up another name for them & its fine? How's it work?


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## syeph8 (May 22, 2010)

Inkage said:


> So the wildlife departments specifically targets animals tagged ''Jag''? So we can just call them ''RPMS'' or make up another name for them & its fine? How's it work?


 
hahaha easily tricked government organisation. its like pulling your hands up over your eyes and saying "if i can't see you, you can't see me" and them actually losing you! im sure a few people area aware of whats going though surely... then again...
Does anyone at the DSE actually own a snake or know anything about them? i rang DSE when i picked up my jungle because i was very suprised that there is no species code for them on vic liscence database. i got shifted between like 4 people before i got put on to their "snake guy" who said (and i kid you not!) "i thought a carpet was a carpet... just use a carpet code, i think we have a few".. so i used the variegata one. surely they should know how many jungles sell in vic every year? yet there is no (was no, i am unsure if this is still the case) species code for jungles. just an example of how intelligent the wildlife departments are


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## CodeRed (May 22, 2010)

Wildlife departments aren't that dumb. They can read forums too  The main problem for them would be one of proof that can withstand scrutiny in a court room.


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

i thought that if they cannot prove that they or the parents were aquired from overseas stock then rpms wouldent be fair game for them, whats to stop the origional seller of the parents/grandparents just saying its a natural genetic mutation that happened with his animals and that he dident import anything from overseas illeagaly

surely they cannot take your animals without certiftyed proof?


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## pyrodarknessanny (May 22, 2010)

back to the R M P/ jag thing, do the ones SXR be selling have the nuro thing? 
i assume all jags are nuro ( and to what degree)?


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## PilbaraPythons (May 22, 2010)

Kenshin
The tainted property charge is a reverse onus so in other words, the the D.E.H doesn't have to prove anything. Instead the person charged has to prove that they don't have tainted property. This is why more than a few people have failed under this charge and lost their siezed reptiles in QLD.
In reality though (and putting it a bit more into perspective), the QLD wildlife enforcement situation (as in the past at least) and in relation to most reptiles seizures, was mostly done through the fauna squad ( for want of a better word ) and was actually a branch of the police department and they therefore were far more proactive and perhaps more savy with the law than the D.E.H would normally be. 
The QLD Fauna squad by the way, no longer exists. Anyway guys, sorry for drifting somewhat off the topic.


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## Kenshin (May 22, 2010)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Kenshin
> The tainted property charge is a reverse onus so in other words, the the D.E.H doesn't have to prove anything. Instead the person charged has to prove that they don't have tainted property. This is why more than a few people have failed under this charge and lost their siezed reptiles in QLD.
> In reality though (and putting it a bit more into perspective), the QLD wildlife enforcement situation (as in the past at least) and in relation to most reptiles seizures, was mostly done through the fauna squad ( for want of a better word ) and was actually a branch of the police department and they therefore were far more proactive and perhaps more savy with the law than the D.E.H would normally be.
> The QLD Fauna squad by the way, no longer exists. Anyway guys, sorry for drifting somewhat off the topic.



thats ok dave thanks for the info it was very informative


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## mojo73 (May 23, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> RPM i belive stands for "reduced patterned morelia" (that was my interpretation instead of morph) and jags are a co-dominant morph of coastal carpet python that occured over in the uk (dont think it originated in america). to the best of my understanding, this occurred with pure coastal lines. since then, the laws in the uk have allowed them to be crossbred with several other forms of morelia for different behavioural and aesthetic attributes. some argue that there are no pure coastal jags as they were often crossed with smaller species like irian jaya or jungle carpet python to reduce size (it was my understanding, again, that jungles were more commonly used because of their brighter colours, but how would any of us really know unless we have been involved with this developing trend overseas ourselves).
> 
> Sye


 
There are no such Laws. You can breed what you like with what you like. A carpet with another type of carpet, a carpet with a scrub python or even a carpet with a blood python. We can create whatever Frankenstein mutt's we like and only have to answer to our consciences!


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## CodeRed (May 23, 2010)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Kenshin
> The tainted property charge is a reverse onus so in other words, the the D.E.H doesn't have to prove anything. Instead the person charged has to prove that they don't have tainted property. This is why more than a few people have failed under this charge and lost their siezed reptiles in QLD.
> In reality though (and putting it a bit more into perspective), the QLD wildlife enforcement situation (as in the past at least) and in relation to most reptiles seizures, was mostly done through the fauna squad ( for want of a better word ) and was actually a branch of the police department and they therefore were far more proactive and perhaps more savy with the law than the D.E.H would normally be.
> The QLD Fauna squad by the way, no longer exists. Anyway guys, sorry for drifting somewhat off the topic.



What happened to the presumption of innocence?


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## zobo (May 23, 2010)

after a couple of generations of outcrossing to pure coastals they will appear to be coastal by many tests as the morph is co-dom so quick and easy to cover up and establish. And we know that certain people have had this morph for multiple generations already in Oz.

All the honest people I know of with this line admit it is JAG not RPM.

I think a few people have now lost some cred, and honesty is the best policy (unless your breaking the law I guess!)


j


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## Boney (May 23, 2010)

i havent seen any jags for sale only rpm . so all the honest people havent breed them yet ? hows that honest anyway just owning a jag you know you are doing the wrong thing if you knew it was all legit you wouldnt have to hide the fact


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## PimmsPythons (May 23, 2010)

i still laugh at the fact that people are still up in arms about the jags/RPM being illegal in australia and saying that "they came from an illegal source!!".yet these same people still proudly display their" local specific" cape yorks,tullys,palmerstons,cowleys,mission beach,proserpines,brisbanes,townsvilles etc,etc which have all obviously been taken illegally from the wild well after the 94 amnesty.
i highly doubt that authorities will do anything about the jags because at the end of the day they are an australian python and it will be damn near impossilby to prove that they were from overseas,(even though we all know it). they have bigger fish to fry than small time snake breeders in the pet trade.we have already seen that even if you get caught smuggling reptiles you basicly get a slap on the wrist so i doubt that anything will happen to the ones that have made it through the airport security system and into the mainstream.
cheers
simon


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## Greenmad (May 23, 2010)

Agree with that one simon




slimebo said:


> i still laugh at the fact that people are still up in arms about the jags/RPM being illegal in australia and saying that "they came from an illegal source!!".yet these same people still proudly display their" local specific" cape yorks,tullys,palmerstons,cowleys,mission beach,proserpines,brisbanes,townsvilles etc,etc which have all obviously been taken illegally from the wild well after the 94 amnesty.
> i highly doubt that authorities will do anything about the jags because at the end of the day they are an australian python and it will be damn near impossilby to prove that they were from overseas,(even though we all know it). they have bigger fish to fry than small time snake breeders in the pet trade.we have already seen that even if you get caught smuggling reptiles you basicly get a slap on the wrist so i doubt that anything will happen to the ones that have made it through the airport security system and into the mainstream.
> cheers
> simon


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## Retic (May 23, 2010)

The Jag originated in Norway, no the UK or America. 



syeph8 said:


> jags are a co-dominant morph of coastal carpet python that occured over in the uk (dont think it originated in america). to the best of my understanding, this occurred with pure coastal lines. since then, the laws in the uk have allowed them to be crossbred with several other forms of morelia for different behavioural and aesthetic attributes. some argue that there are no pure coastal jags as they were often crossed with smaller species like irian jaya or jungle carpet python to reduce size (it was my understanding, again, that jungles were more commonly used because of their brighter colours, but how would any of us really know unless we have been involved with this developing trend overseas ourselves).
> 
> Sye


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## ammers (May 23, 2010)

i cant see a diffrence between owning a jag/rpm and owning a non native GTP... doesnt matter how many generations a captive bred biak gtp is,its still an exotic/illegal snake.


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## Kenshin (May 23, 2010)

ammers said:


> i cant see a diffrence between owning a jag/rpm and owning a non native GTP... doesnt matter how many generations a captive bred biak gtp is,its still an exotic/illegal snake.


 
well i dont think they are veiwed as illeagle as they are legitimatly on licence....... regardless of them being obvious exotics


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## The Devil (May 23, 2010)

Ok, this is an interesting thread, check out the attached pic and classify these 4 into what you reckon they might be......reduced pattern......
normal......reduced pattern modified (jag???).
I will say that at least one of these were hatched using a new and slightly radical incubation method.....


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## Snake_Whisperer (May 23, 2010)

The Devil said:


> Ok, this is an interesting thread, check out the attached pic and classify these 4 into what you reckon they might be......reduced pattern......
> normal......reduced pattern modified (jag???).
> I will say that at least one of these were hatched using a new and slightly radical incubation method.....


 
Ok Nev, I'm game!

Pic 1: Typical "RPM"
Pic 2: SXR RPM
Pic 3: Stunning RP Jungle
Pic 4: Classic "Devil" Striped Jungle

How'd I do?


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## Greenmad (May 23, 2010)

The Devil said:


> Ok, this is an interesting thread, check out the attached pic and classify these 4 into what you reckon they might be......reduced pattern......
> normal......reduced pattern modified (jag???).
> I will say that at least one of these were hatched using a new and slightly radical incubation method.....


 
Nev 

P1 RP JUNGEL
P2 RP COASTAL
P3 RP JUNGEL
P4 DEVIL JUNGEL


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## rodney (May 23, 2010)

it amazes me to read some of this.do people really think the jags are going to be seized there is no reason to believe it hasn't popped up in Australia like it did in Germany the jags in Australia could be native so why would they seize these animals when they do nothing about the Greentree pythons being sold as their overseas locales everyone just accepts these animals now they also do nothing about all the exotics in Australia how many on this site happily own corn snakes and I know there are a lot these animals pose a greater risk than jags ever will


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## Kenshin (May 23, 2010)

The Devil said:


> Ok, this is an interesting thread, check out the attached pic and classify these 4 into what you reckon they might be......reduced pattern......
> normal......reduced pattern modified (jag???).
> I will say that at least one of these were hatched using a new and slightly radical incubation method.....



nev ill tell you what theyre not............ not mine care to rectify that lol


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 23, 2010)

As a keeper and owner of RPMs here is my opinion on some points raised in this thread and where I stand in this matter......

Does it really matter what they are called, at the end of the day they are Morelia spilota that contain a co-dominant genetic that enhances their visual appearance. Call them what you want, but at the end of the day they are just a co-dom carpet.

I have never seen any signs of neuro disorders amongst any RPMs that I have been involved with. 

After a conversation with Parks 3 or 4 years ago regarding purchasing exotic GTPs, I asked for clarification whether parks had the authority to confiscate non-native GTPs. The answer I received was, 
"If you buy unknown origin Morelia viridis from another Licensed keeper, fill in all appropriate import/export permits and both the seller and buyer hold the appropriate license for that species you have nothing to be concerned about, as far as we are concerned as long as they are not wild caught and are captive bred in Australia and are on license correctly we have no reason to look further into the matter." To me this set the precedent (at least with my local authority) for all animals that may or may not have a clouded history.

Having clarified that with parks, in the upcoming years when the opportunity to legitametly purchase my co-dom carpets which were bred and sold legitametly by SXR I jumped at the opportunity to be one of the first to be able to work with these carpets. Yes I have copped flak from some people and yes I have received heaps of support from others. At the end of the day my collection was bred, bought and sold with all animals appropriately licensed and all import/export permits aquired and filed. 

Further to this I have bred my co-dom Morelia spilotas and have traded them with other keepers in NSW, VIC, QLD and SA with all keepers holding the appropriate licenses and permits filled and filed. All buyers were given the full history of how I aquired my breeders and were happy to be buying multi-generation legitametly bred and sold in AUS co-dom carpets. 

Im sure some people will still have a problem with this, but at the end of the day my collection and any offspring are a native Morelia spilota that has been captive bred in Aus and sold legitametly. We cant do much more than that........


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## The Devil (May 23, 2010)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Ok Nev, I'm game!
> 
> Pic 1: Typical "RPM"
> Pic 2: SXR RPM
> ...



Yeah, not bad, but I'm interested in knowing what the benchmark is for a RP anything....


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## The Devil (May 23, 2010)

Kenshin said:


> nev ill tell you what theyre not............ not mine care to rectify that lol



Hi Ryan
everything has a price.....


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 23, 2010)

Hey Nev
have a look at the thread RP ARGUMENT, Roger laid it out pretty clear.


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## Retic (May 23, 2010)

NORWAY. Not America, not the UK, not Germany, not Australia but NORWAY. 



rodney said:


> hasn't popped up in Australia like it did in Germany the jags in Australia


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## The Devil (May 23, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Hey Nev
> have a look at the thread RP ARGUMENT, Roger laid it out pretty clear.



Yes, I did read the post from Roger. What I was mainly getting at is the recent bit of referring to snakes as reduced pattern. To call something reduced pattern there had to be a benchmark of "normal" so the benchmark a "normal" banded or a "normal" stripe jungle.....


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## Snake_Whisperer (May 23, 2010)

The Devil said:


> Yeah, not bad, but I'm interested in knowing what the benchmark is for a RP anything....


 
Who knows mate, how long is a chinese river? I think the argument starts with trying to bench mark anything, it can't really be done. At the end of the day it is far too subjective an argument to really be quantifyable. Personally, animals with a fair amount of dorsal striping and coupled with distinct saddles, I call RP. More in reference to a "style" of patterning as opposed to some sort of hard and fast rule. Take Zobo's animals, I'd call those striped as it is fairly obvious. The last photo you posted has a style of pattern that I personally equate to your better specimens, hence "Devil" Jungle. Without measurable genetic traits, I don't think any absolute definition can be achieved. If I were to say, "Have a look at this RP Proserpine", no-one comes out with calipers and imaging software to calculate the different levels and quantities of colour/base, etc.., they just expect to see an animal that has a certain pattern style. That's my opinion at least.

I call this animal "RP" though I am sure many would disagree. This is a Faustino Proserpine and a fine example imo. Don't know if it is 50/50 or part banded but I really don't care. It has a style of pattern that I think most people think of when they think RP. Could be wrong though.







This one is a Brett Zaccar bred, mostly Tully Jungle. I call it RP, as again, he has a style of pattern that makes me think RP. Still subjective, can't really be bothered to measure the percentages of pattern to base colour.


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## Greenmad (May 23, 2010)

Adam they are great looking animals, I love the proserpine.


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## shane14 (May 23, 2010)

ill just say, with out causing a stir, those are very nice looking snakes


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## ShadowDragon (May 23, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i still laugh at the fact that people are still up in arms about the jags/RPM being illegal in australia and saying that "they came from an illegal source!!".yet these same people still proudly display their" local specific" cape yorks,tullys,palmerstons,cowleys,mission beach,proserpines,brisbanes,townsvilles etc,etc which have all obviously been taken illegally from the wild well after the 94 amnesty.


 You're right, that would be funny if it were true  I'm sure some do, but not all. Not quite as funny in that case.


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 23, 2010)

You have to agree with snake whisperer, its way to a grey area. 

Anything with that bare back look (saddles down sides) that does not contain co-dom genetics should be considered a "RP". To what level of RP depends on the opinion of the on-looker.

Anything that has the bare back look that is created due to co-dom genetics should be considered an "RPM"/"JAG"/"CO-DOM CARPET".

Anything that has a continuous or close to continuous dorsal stripe should be considered "striped".

If it doesnt obviously fit into these descriptions then it is more than likely "standard".


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## Jimi (May 23, 2010)

Id like to see a RPM/jag clutch...


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## syeph8 (May 23, 2010)

boa said:


> The Jag originated in Norway, no the UK or America.


 
learn something new every day. i read that blokes journal once, good read, apparently you can get it online somehwere.. anyone know where? 



mojo73 said:


> There are no such Laws. You can breed what you like with what you like. A carpet with another type of carpet, a carpet with a scrub python or even a carpet with a blood python. We can create whatever Frankenstein mutt's we like and only have to answer to our consciences!


 
exactly.. the uk laws are that there are no laws. uk law says "do what you want with snakes, we really cant be bothered legislating on this thing"


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## rodney (May 23, 2010)

Teksten er klippet fra Jan Eric Engels gamle hjemmeside.


After several years of breeding Coastal Carpet Pythons, Morelia s. mcdowelli, (former Morelia s. variegatae) I suddenly produced a most unusual looking specimen one day in 1994.

It looked completely different compared to all other mcdowelli hatchlings as far as pattern and color was concerned. It was almost patternless along its back except for a few markings on its neck. The background color was of a light pinkish tan with light brown blotches bordered with a black edging along the sides of the entire body. 

Between the age of two and three the background color of this animal turned more and more yellow. As an adult this male still takes my breath away even though he has begun shading to very beautiful orange color. No signs of fading or black tipping of the background color has occurred in this animal, as is often the case with Jungle Carpets as they age.

In 1997 I named this exceptional specimen the Jaguar Carpet, which I found to be most appropriate due to its color and pattern. 

Thus the Jaguar name was introduced to the herp scene for the very first time.

It was now time to find out if this spontaneous mutation was of a dominant or recessive trait. In 1998 I bred him with an unrelated Coastal female. Unfortunately this resulted in only four good eggs. However, one of the babies turned out to be a true Jaguar Carpet. Now there was no doubt that this was a genetic trait. The background color of this specimen turned completely yellow during its second year and with an unbelievable head pattern.

Using the same breeding pair in 1999 I produced twelve babies. Four were normals and eight were true Jaguars. All of these went to the United States.

The following year I managed to produce approximately 50% normals and 50% Jaguars from two unrelated mcdowelli females. This suggests that the Jaguar gene is of a co-dominant trait. 
One female (#2 on the Coastal page) laid 49 eggs, whereas 4 were non-viable. 22 Jaguars and 23 normal sibs was the result from this clutch. Perhaps not so astonishing since the female at the time was 11 feet long and weighing close to 22 pounds, but still a pretty impressive sized clutch.
Thanks to the founder Jaguar male.

Finally, something even more spectacular appeared among the 22 Jags that year, namely the patternless Banana Jaguar Carpet with only a small blotch between her eyes. She was one of a kind, but unfortunately she died in 2002 before she reached the age of two. I have been hoping to produce some new ones ever since, but the large female Coastal has not produced a clutch since. 

She was imported to Norway in 1976 when she was only about 4 feet long and today she is a huge monster at close to 13 feet with a weight of over 30 pounds. Her head is as big as my rather large fist and she has a really bad temper to go along with it. I am still hoping every year that she will lay a new clutch, but I am afraid she might have passed her retirement age.

The second female (#1 on my Coastal page) started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project that year. She was bred to the son of the founder, who I simply call “Junior” and who made his sexual debut quite early. Even though their clutch was small compared to the other one, this breeding pair managed to produce a few Hypo Jaguars including the first Red Hypo Jaguar pair.

The two Red Hypos not only lacked black tipping on the background scales, but also showed no signs of developing black tipping within the blotches. They simply looked amazing…

The background color of the Hypo Jaguar juveniles should slowly start to turn yellow by one year and continue to intensify as they age.

Despite the fact that the founder male did not turn bright yellow until the age of three, it seems like most of the offspring from the hypo bloodline develop the yellow coloration much earlier. The background color of the Red Hypos on the other hand turn into a more white coloration with age, extending from ivory white to cream to a soft yellowish white. As adults they can almost be called white hypos.

Regular Jaguars develop black tipping either on their background scales or within their blotches or both. As you can clearly see on the Regular Jaguar page. This development can start right after their first shed as a juvenile or take up to their second year to develop. Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars do not develop black tipping and that is why I call them hypos, namely due to the fact that these specimens have a reduction in black pigmentation. Even H. Bernard Bechtel, who wrote the book “Reptile and Amphibian Variants”, agrees with me on this point.

It was not until 2003 I did my first Jaguar to Jaguar breeding and from that point on I have had some pretty amazing results as well as producing a few new Jaguar morphs. The following breedings and results have taken place here at my facility since 2003 and up until today.

HYPO JAGUAR x HYPO JAGUAR (3 clutches) = mostly Hypo Jaguars and a few Red Hypos together with normal sibs and some dead Leucists. I also produced the very first Super Hypo from my high yellow Hypo pair in 2003. 

The Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch are really high contrast in pattern and color even at birth, especially the ones produced by the breeder pair already mentioned.

The Red Hypos are also unique from this breeding since the background color of the 2003 specimens have turned bright yellow instead of the usual white. A Hypo Tiger Jaguar was produced in 2004. No Regular Jaguars were produced. Since I have only produced small clutches from such breedings due to the fact that close to half of the eggs have gone bad during incubation I do need a perfect clutch in order to iron out the exact % of each morph from such a breeding.

There might also be other hidden morphs.......
I do have such a perfect clutch in the incubator ready to hatch any day now. The results will be updated later.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (4 clutches) = mostly Red Hypos (including blue tongued and a few red tongued specimens), a few Hypos and sibs, Super Red Hypos and some dead leucists. Two of these leucists stayed alive for a while. No Regular Jaguars were produced.

One of the two clutches I produced this year from such a breeding was finally a perfect 100% clutch (no slugs!) consisting of 21 eggs with the following results:

4 Leucists (dead!)
4 Super Reds (including twins!)
3 Leopard Jaguars - red burgandy phase
1 Leopard Jaguar - super red phase
4 Red Hypos
2 Hypos
4 Normal Sibs


So there you are, a new Jaguar morph can appear if you produce a perfect clutch. The Leopard Jaguar will be updated with pics later. More importantly, what is the actual SUPER morph in the Jaguar trait?
I have never believed it to be the Leucistic Jaguar. Seems to me that the leucist gene is one of many within the Jaguar project, something the results of the breeding above should clearly indicate. 

As with “Supers” from other co-dominant mutation breedings the Super usually resembles the original morph, but is a much better looking animal with brighter colors and less pattern. Or with a unique new pattern altogether even though it is easy to see where it came from. 

An example of many being the Tiger Retic and the Super Tiger Retic or the Pastel Balls and the Super Pastels. An even better example is the Platty Ball python project. Here you have combinations of Lesser Platty balls producing not only two leucistic forms, but also the Super Lessers. 
The Platty obviously has several hidden genes, much like that of the Jaguar Carpet.
With the Leopard Jaguar suddenly appearing I am getting even more confused concerning the Jaguar trait, but for now I am sticking to what I have called the Supers on my website, at least until the opposite has been proven. 

More perfect clutches have to be produced before the Jaguar puzzle is in place.

HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch 2004) =
2 Red Hypo Jaguars, 3 Super Red Hypo Jaguars, 1 Hypo Jaguar and 2 dead Leucists.
No normal sibs or Regular Jaguars were produced. There were several slugs in this clutch so the result speaks for itself. More clutches needed in order to iron out the possibilities from such a breeding.

REGULAR JAGUAR X REGULAR JAGUAR =
Such a breeding has not taken place at my facility, simply because I have not kept any Regular females. I have concentrated on Hypos due to lack of space.
However, Are Hogner at Oslo Reptile Park has done so and produced the first Tiger Jaguar in 2003. Otherwise I do not have his exact results so this is something I will have to come back to.
Other Jaguar breedings that have taken place since my last update are as follows.


HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
During the past three seasons I have bred my high yellow Hypo Jaguar male with 3 different unrelated Coastal females. Approximately 50% Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs was the result, not so strange considering the Jaguar trait is of a co-dominant trait. The hatchlings all looked like Hypos or Red Hypos when they were born, but a few started to develop this scale tipping already after their first shed. While others have taken up to two years to develop such tipping. Even though the amount of black tipping varies from specimen to specimen they do seem to develop this scale tipping with age, either on the background scales or within the blotches or both. Exactly like the Regular Jaguars do. 

However, the bright colors of these “intermedia” Jaguars develop at a much earlier stage (usually during their first and second year), much like that of the true Hypo Jaguars. They simply have a much cleaner and high contrast appearance despite of the black tipping. I therefore prefer to call them high contrast Jaguars so they do not get confused with Regular or Hypo Jaguars.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
This has not been done at my facility. However, I expect the same results as when breeding a Hypo Jaguar with unrelated Coastal females. 

Unless you are lucky enough to own a normal, unrelated Coastal with a hidden hypo gene. Something a US breeder is supposed to have. Just like the normal Coastal female I am fortunate to own without knowing about her “little secret” until she started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project. New hypo bloodlines are good to find within the Carpet Python world.

I have found that the only way to produce Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars is by breeding Hypo x Hypo, Red Hypo x Red Hypo, Red Hypo x Hypo or Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line) and Red Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line). 

Otherwise, as already mentioned a Coastal with a hidden hypo gene is needed. Someone out there might very well own such a specimen without knowing, even though it is rare.

REGULAR JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTALS =
As with all Jaguar morphs when bred to a unrelated Coastal you do produce approximately 50% Regular Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs. However, so far I have been fortunate enough to produce the Banana Jaguar among the Regular Jaguars in the year 2000 and almost another one (with two blotches) the year before, except this specimen managed to drown inside the egg before it was supposed to hatch.

Secondly, the Hypo and Red Hypo project from another unrelated Coastal female the same year. And finally in 2004 the Axanthic Jaguar (3 more Axanthics this year!) from a third unrelated Coastal female.

These three breedings have been a result of breeding 3 separate Regular Jaguar males with 3 normal, unrelated Coastal females (also unrelated to each other). So what is going on? The Jaguar Carpet obviously has multiple hidden genes and depending on what genetic material lies within an unrelated Coastal counterpart you might very well be facing a totally new Jaguar morph.
I guess you could say I have been blessed 3 times already! The fact that it has happened to me does not mean it cannot happen to others also. The next new morph can just as well appear at some other Jaguar owner’s facility.
NORMAL SIB (Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) X HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch) =
I produced exactly 12 Sibs, 9 Hypo Jaguars and 3 Red Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch.
The Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars from such a breeding all look fantastic with no black tipping.

I will be producing more such clutches in order to find out more.


NORMAL SIB X NORMAL SIB (Both from Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) =
My findings are from two clutches. Only Normal Sibs were produced even though they had various patterns and colors. I now consider the normal sibs from the Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line to be most useful since when bred to a Hypo or Red Hypo Jaguar they are in fact capable of producing both of the Hypo Jaguar morphs. 

The Leucistic Jaguars are obviously a weak link within the Jaguar trait. So far I have produced a total of 26 dead leucists from the 8 Jaguar x Jaguar clutches mentioned earlier on this page. 

One of these leucists hatched by itself and stayed alive for a couple of hours while another one stayed alive for three days within its egg. Are Hogner of Oslo Reptile Park has produced 8 leucists so far from his Regular Jaguar pair. One of these stayed alive for about 26 hours after hatching while another one stayed alive inside the egg for over two days before it died. He has taken video footage of this Leucistic Jaguar while it was alive. You may view this footage on the "Jaguar Photos" page.

From a total of 34 Leucistic Jaguars produced here in Norway (from two different sources) only three have shown any signs of external body abnormalities (kinks etc.). The rest have looked perfect.

So why does the few that hatch by themselves die shortly after? Could it be that their lungs are simply disfunctional during the transition to atmospheric breathing? Or could it be caused by some other internal disorder? I believe the only way to produce a healthy leucistic specimen is to dilute the Jaguar bloodline by several generations and then breed two completely unrelated Jaguars to each other.

On another genetic note. It seems to me that if you breed a Jaguar male with several normal, unrelated Coastal females this might most likely result in an unequal distribution of the different morphs, according to the variations in the genetic material of the various normal Coastal females.

An example might be that I have only produced 3 banded Jaguar specimens (from 3 separate Jaguar morphs) during the course of three years while a US breeder in 2004 produced a clutch from his Red Hypo
Jaguar male to a normal, unrelated female Coastal, whereas most of the hatchlings were banded.

The above statements reflects only on my findings at my facility so far. Breedings will vary of course. There is still a lot to be learnt, but I am slowly learning more each year as far as the Jaguar trait is concerned.
I do not have all the answers. More breeding and perfect clutches are required in order to iron out the possibilities. It seems like an endless quest since it looks like a new Jaguar morph appears almost annually. I am not complaining though.
The Jaguar project is without a doubt the most interesting Carpet Python project around and probably for years to come.

There has been a lot of discussions on Carpet forums whether my Jaguars are actual Coastals or not.
During the 1960’ies and 1970’ies the only Carpet Pythons you could get your hands on here in Europe were Coastals. All of the Carpets I collected at the time were the Brisbane variety. 

Their lenghts speak for themselves. Simply the fact that my Coastals have reached lenghts on average of 10-11 feet, with the exceptions of a few 13 footers should be proof enough. My “Big Mamma“ as I call my oldest normal Coastal is now 13 feet. Two of my largest Jaguars are now approximately 10 and 11 feet long.
Do Jungles or Irians reach such sizes?


I had not even heard about Jungle or Irian Carpets when the new reptile law went into effect on January 1st. 1977, making it illegal to import reptiles to Norway. From this date on it was also illegal to own reptiles unless you obtained a dispensation from the Ministry of Agriculture. I do possess such a permit on all my snakes.

My facility is inspected a few times each year by the Norwegian Veterinary authorities. Not only are the python eggs inspected and counted, but also the babies after they hatch. Everything is accounted for and if as much as one animal should die during the year I have to put it in the freezer and report it to the authorities. I also have to keep the empty eggs frozen until the inspector arrives. All the frozen eggs as well as potential dead animals are then handed over to the vet. inspector. These are used in educational purposes or properly disposed of by the authorities.
THAT IS HOW STRICT IT IS HERE IN NORWAY. Be glad you herpers do not live here!

In other words keeping illegal animals at my facility is not worth the risk of having my collection confiscated. The only Carpet Python I have a permit for is the Coastal Carpet (former variegatae, now mcdowelli) and that is the only Carpet specie I intend to keep here in Norway. End of story!

And if you wonder why it was called variegatae back then it was simply because the Morelia “Carpet” group was devided into variegatae (all the Carpets), bredli (Centralians) and spilota (Diamonds). They were not separated into subspecies back then.

So there won’t be any further misunderstandings to the following warning. Two Europeans and one Las Vegas petstore manager tried to pass off their Irian Jaya Carpets as true Jaguars during 2001/2002. I have kept all the correspondence as evidence, just in case I ever needed proof.
NOTE!

Be aware that there are a few Irian Jaya Carpets out there that can be mistaken for true Jaguar Coastals. At least as far as pattern is concerned, but the comparison ends there. Most importantly, the color is totally different. 

True Jaguars develop with age a bright yellow/orange background color.
Furthermore, the true Jaguar bloodline is capable of producing several unique Jaguar morphs.
I would therefore simply call these Irian Jayas for so-called "false" Jaguars at best, since they lack the possibilities of true Jaguars. Even though Irian Jaya Carpets are beautiful animals I would not want people to get ripped off, expecting or hoping these to be from my Jaguar bloodline.
I just wanted to clear this up once and for all.

​ Thank you!
Jan Eric Engell



Text of Jan Eric Engell, Untitled Document​


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 23, 2010)

here you go Jimi, clutch of co-dom carpets 
sorry about the size, I will get around to resizeing them one day


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## Retic (May 23, 2010)

Actually they have laws governing the keeping of dangerous animals but there would be no point having laws regarding hybridising animals that are non native. Besides it would have no more affect than the laws we have here covering hybridising. 



syeph8 said:


> exactly.. the uk laws are that there are no laws. uk law says "do what you want with snakes, we really cant be bothered legislating on this thing"


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## Kenshin (May 23, 2010)

at the end of the day no matter theyre origional origins in australia no one will care (myself included) if they came from overseas the fact is they are legally on licence for trade and i and i bet most of you want some to

nice carpets everyone that posted in the thread


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## syeph8 (May 23, 2010)

boa said:


> Actually they have laws governing the keeping of dangerous animals but there would be no point having laws regarding hybridising animals that are non native. Besides it would have no more affect than the laws we have here covering hybridising.


 
i was taking the piss... im sure there would be laws regarding all animals, not just dangerous ones. but i imagine it would be similar to the famous herper rewrite of the RSPCA motto "all creatures great an small, so long as they have fur". 

i would like to get someones take on this that lives in the uk actually, on how much your government bothers with anything reptile? (i would think that venomous reptiles would require liscence)


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## Snake_Whisperer (May 23, 2010)

Thanks for posting that Rodney. Anyone with an interest in this morph would do well to boomark that site. That, kiddies, is from the horse's mouth. It is quite interesting to know Jan has successfully bred his hypo jags to each other. Obviously there is the leucistic factor to take into account but fascinating to hear what these jag x jag breedings produce in terms of "supers" etc. I personally think our newly available RPMs are going to bring a whole new level to the designer python projects in this country!

Edit: Here is the link to the original page with that info if anyone is interested: http://www.jaguarpython.dk


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 23, 2010)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> I personally think our newly available RPMs are going to bring a whole new level to the designer python projects in this country!
> 
> Edit: Here is the link to the original page with that info if anyone is interested: Jaguarpython.dk



That is exactly why these are an exciting prospect for any keeper. Endless possibilities to produce amazing looking carpets.


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## pythonmum (May 23, 2010)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Thanks for posting that Rodney. Anyone with an interest in this morph would do well to boomark that site. That, kiddies, is from the horse's mouth. It is quite interesting to know Jan has successfully bred his hypo jags to each other. Obviously there is the leucistic factor to take into account but fascinating to hear what these jag x jag breedings produce in terms of "supers" etc. I personally think our newly available RPMs are going to bring a whole new level to the designer python projects in this country!


I agree - very interesting. It's also interesting that the originator does not mention other neural signs. On a US forum devoted to Morelia, there was widespread agreement that there was some degree of neurological impairment in all jags, although this could be subtle. Perhaps the Aussie jags have less problems because there is a larger genetic base to work from.


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## Snake_Whisperer (May 23, 2010)

Nice animal Barra, would that be a red hypo? As Jan stated, it may turn out that this particular co-dom trait may indeed come with countless possible variations and outcomes, very exciting!

Will be interesting to see what happens with that Pythonmum. The word on the street is that they all have neuro problems, but whether that turns out to be true or only a marginal issue, will certainly bear some looking into.


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 23, 2010)

I was going to ask the same question, do people think this is a red hypo? me I am unsure, but after reading the journal it does sound like one to me. I have 3 like it and plan to grow them and breed them back to the mother and other coastals to see what happens. 

As for the neuro issues, as said I am yet to see it after 2 years of maintaining my adults and last seasons young. However I am sure there is the odd one out there that will display it, all be it a minority.


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## ntvnm (May 23, 2010)

Don't sugercoat things. they are all jags and include everything a regular jag would...regardless on how good they look, importing them could (and most likely have) introduced many diseases to Australia...this is the perfect example that shows the keepers that have these animals are simply in it for the money and don't really care about anything else and lets not kid our selfs, are encourageing smuggleing.

maybe i should get a maclots or a whiteliped and put it on license as a new morph of carpet, this is exactly the same thing, importing something with exotic blood (irian jaya in jags) and calling it something else.

just because what i have just said isnt what you wanted to hear dosnt mean it isnt true or shouldnt have been said.


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## mojo73 (May 23, 2010)

One thing is for sure. Be they RPM's or be they Jaguars - you will be getting lots and lots and lots of ugly mutt siblings as you start creating all of the different RPM/Jag morphs as we have over here in the UK, Europe and the US.

The only difference is if these ugly siblings with mixed heritage escape over here they will pretty much die whereas over by you guys they have a good chance of wrecking your local gene pools.


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## Kenshin (May 23, 2010)

mojo73 said:


> One thing is for sure. Be they RPM's or be they Jaguars - you will be getting lots and lots and lots of ugly mutt siblings as you start creating all of the different RPM/Jag morphs as we have over here in the UK, Europe and the US.
> 
> The only difference is if these ugly siblings with mixed heritage escape over here they will pretty much die whereas over by you guys they have a good chance of wrecking your local gene pools.


 
hi mojo, i dare say that we wont have that problem so rampant as xbrids are not common over here and i dare say they wont be that common here, so the siblings shouyld be half decent coastals


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## Retic (May 23, 2010)

Ah sorry, it's just that I read so many ridiculous things on here about other countries I must admit I assumed you were serious.  
The Government doesn't have too much to do with reptile keeping really, to a large degree it is self regulating and to be honest I don't think animal welfare benefits when Governments are involved.
Yes venomous reptiles and animals considered dangerous require licenses which involve a visit from a vet to make sure the accommodation is suitable and secure. Premises must be secure and rooms and cages must be locked. 



syeph8 said:


> i was taking the piss... im sure there would be laws regarding all animals, not just dangerous ones. but i imagine it would be similar to the famous herper rewrite of the RSPCA motto "all creatures great an small, so long as they have fur".
> 
> i would like to get someones take on this that lives in the uk actually, on how much your government bothers with anything reptile? (i would think that venomous reptiles would require liscence)


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## syeph8 (May 23, 2010)

boa said:


> Ah sorry, it's just that I read so many ridiculous things on here about other countries I must admit I assumed you were serious.
> The Government doesn't have too much to do with reptile keeping really, to a large degree it is self regulating and to be honest I don't think animal welfare benefits when Governments are involved.
> Yes venomous reptiles and animals considered dangerous require licenses which involve a visit from a vet to make sure the accommodation is suitable and secure. Premises must be secure and rooms and cages must be locked.



haha no need to apologise, most people dont get my humour when theyre standing right in front of me, let alone over a forum  thanks for the info, basically what i assumed to be true based on breif snippets on information gathered off all the uk members of this site. 
i also completely agree that the government involvement has done a great deal of harm to herping as well as some good. but if a government funded regulatory body elected by each states herp societies.. then we might be onto a system that works! ..radical idea i know, but hey, im a visionary genius!


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## mojo73 (May 23, 2010)

Kenshin said:


> hi mojo, i dare say that we wont have that problem so rampant as xbrids are not common over here and i dare say they wont be that common here, so the siblings shouyld be half decent coastals


 
You have a few crosses as it is so as soon as their price drops and they are even more accessible to the masses it will happen. It's inevitable and just a matter of time.

Just imagine albino RPM's!


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## The Devil (May 24, 2010)

mojo73 said:


> You have a few crosses as it is so as soon as their price drops and they are even more accessible to the masses it will happen. It's inevitable and just a matter of time.
> 
> Just imagine albino RPM's!



{albino RPM's}...already done, well het albino RPM's were hatched in the last season or 2 so this year there might be some around..


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## Contagion (May 24, 2010)

I don't know if anyone has hatched an albino jag/RPM yet, but I know overseas there were numerous 100% het pairings involving jags. So we should see some this year from other places. Not sure who'll be the first here.


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## mojo73 (May 24, 2010)

Kenshin said:


> hi mojo, i dare say that we wont have that problem so rampant as xbrids are not common over here and i dare say they wont be that common here, so the siblings shouyld be half decent coastals





The Devil said:


> {albino RPM's}...already done, well het albino RPM's were hatched in the last season or 2 so this year there might be some around..



Ha so that will be Darwin / Coastal sibling mutts already for you Kenshin. Just wait until they contain multiple genes and it gets to the point where people don't know what they are and you get the threads asking "What type is my carpet?"

Diamond jungle bredli RPM siblings on the way......!.......!!.........!!!


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## Jason (May 24, 2010)

Contagion said:


> I don't know if anyone has hatched an albino jag/RPM yet, but I know overseas there were numerous 100% het pairings involving jags. So we should see some this year from other places. Not sure who'll be the first here.


 
there are some suspected albino jags that have recently hatched in the states. however apart from the pattern, the breeders dont seem to be absolutely certain they are jags. if they infact are, imo they arent as amazing as i would have hoped them to be.... hopefully they look amazing as adults though. 
i still think one of the best looking jags are the JJJ's (jungle jaya jag), our equivalent or closest would be a jungle darwin jag... looking forward to them.


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## CodeRed (May 24, 2010)

Jason said:


> there are some suspected albino jags that have recently hatched in the states. however apart from the pattern, the breeders dont seem to be absolutely certain they are jags. if they infact are, imo they arent as amazing as i would have hoped them to be.... hopefully they look amazing as adults though.
> i still think one of the best looking jags are the JJJ's (jungle jaya jag), our equivalent or closest would be a jungle darwin jag... looking forward to them.



Caramel jags would probably look better anyway


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 24, 2010)

Wait until the caramel gene is combined with the albino gene to produce double hets, breed the double hets back together and who knows what the result will look like. 

Then combine the caramel albino with the RPM genetics. Its a long process, but sure to be amazing results. 

Then as stated earlier you have the chance of producing standard albino RPMs, as the Devil hinted I dont think this is too far away........


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## Kenshin (May 24, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Wait until the caramel gene is combined with the albino gene to produce double hets, breed the double hets back together and who knows what the result will look like.
> 
> Then combine the caramel albino with the RPM genetics. Its a long process, but sure to be amazing results.
> 
> Then as stated earlier you have the chance of producing standard albino RPMs, as the Devil hinted I dont think this is too far away........



my head hurts


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 24, 2010)

Try planning future pairings and working out what to hold back and what I need to source to make this happen. Then holdback tubs/cages and food for the ever growing gene pool needed. aaaahhhhhhh where's the panadol


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## Kenshin (May 24, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Try planning future pairings and working out what to hold back and what I need to source to make this happen. Then holdback tubs/cages and food for the ever growing gene pool needed. aaaahhhhhhh where's the panadol


 
by all means come and put some jags in my hatchy rack........ ill even give you the panadol


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 24, 2010)

While on the note of sourcing animals for these projects I am chasing a quality pair of clean juvenile Black and Whites and 2 juvenile Albino females, if anyone can help send me a pm.


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## evozz (May 24, 2010)

Noob question, what's a Jag? Can someone define it for me please


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## BARRAMUNDI (May 24, 2010)

Evozz
have a read of the thread, in particular the very long post on the previous page.


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## Contagion (May 24, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> While on the note of sourcing animals for these projects I am chasing a quality pair of clean juvenile Black and Whites and 2 juvenile Albino females, if anyone can help send me a pm.


 
I've got a good system for you ben, pick your best hatchies, and then drop them off at my place. I'll do the rest...  lol. 

On another note, I am keeping my cracker julatten female, but I have a stunning 4 y/o male you can buy, and a clean, but moreso grey 4y/o female if you're keen. Pm for more info.


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jun 22, 2010)

The Devil said:


> {albino RPM's}...already done, well het albino RPM's were hatched in the last season or 2 so this year there might be some around..



yes! there are some albino "RPMs" on one of theover seas froums. pice lookinf hatchies too i might add


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## PhilK (Jun 22, 2010)

I for one feel terribly sad the way our snakes are going... who the hell wants to be like the bloody US?

I think it is messed up we are doing all these things to our snakes.. in 50 years they will be unrecognisable and you won't be able to find a snake that isn't a 'diet lavender creamsicle reduced jag het for granite pie' morph.. it stinks I reckon. For every 1 that looks brilliant there are 10 of its dog ugly siblings and they all just go out to muddy the waters, especially when these morphs are being bred by crossing.


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## H.bitorquatus (Jun 23, 2010)

A jag and a RPM are the same thing aren't they?

people just call Jags RPM's in Australia to make them sound legal and not jags?


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## H.bitorquatus (Jun 23, 2010)

I think it works too?


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## PhilK (Jun 23, 2010)

H.bitorquatus said:


> A jag and a RPM are the same thing aren't they?
> 
> people just call Jags RPM's in Australia to make them sound legal and not jags?


That was established on page 1


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jun 23, 2010)

face palm


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## H.bitorquatus (Jun 23, 2010)

I didn't read a single reply :lol: it was also said with hint of sarcasm. you don't get that on internet though. I couldn't be bothered reading through 7 pages of **** replies like my own.


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## H.bitorquatus (Jun 23, 2010)

so they are the same thing?


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## pyrodarknessanny (Jun 23, 2010)

no didnt you hear, one has lazor eye vision


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## H.bitorquatus (Jun 23, 2010)

do you want me to ask again?


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## kenneally1 (Jun 23, 2010)

H.bitorquatus said:


> do you want me to ask again?


 
yes they are the same thing!!! Like all things though, you get good examples and then you get examples that have been hit with the fugly stick!!!!!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

PhilK said:


> I for one feel terribly sad the way our snakes are going... who the hell wants to be like the bloody US?
> 
> I think it is messed up we are doing all these things to our snakes.. in 50 years they will be unrecognisable and you won't be able to find a snake that isn't a 'diet lavender creamsicle reduced jag het for granite pie' morph.. it stinks I reckon. For every 1 that looks brilliant there are 10 of its dog ugly siblings and they all just go out to muddy the waters, especially when these morphs are being bred by crossing.


 
Phil, we hear your concerns,
However we are very different to the US. We have a much larger collection of captive bred morelias, with a larger portion of keepers committed to maintaining pure lines. The US is in trouble as its near impossible for them to get pure lines of morelia. There is always going to be people maintaining pure wild type locales of morelias. I will be one of those people and so are a large number of other morph breeders. 

We are already establishing a culture of morph breeders being 100% honest when labelling and selling their animals. There has been plenty of examples of this on recent for sale ads. This is a good thing.......

You only need to look at the positive comments from 98% of replies to the RPM threads, times are changing and morphs are more popular than ever and they are here to stay. But we need to maintain this honesty culture for the greater good of the hobby.......


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## cement (Jun 23, 2010)

"We are already establishing a culture of morph breeders being 100% honest when labelling and selling their animals. There has been plenty of examples of this on recent for sale ads. This is a good thing.......

You only need to look at the positive comments from 98% of replies to the RPM threads, times are changing and morphs are more popular than ever and they are here to stay. But we need to maintain this honesty culture for the greater good of the hobby.......[/QUOTE]"

The numbers of hybrids and x's are growing here. It is inevitable because of the money these animals are pulling, and their unique, new look.

If you put the possibility of big dollar returns out there in any field, there will be people jumping on the bandwagon, regardless of whether they are even interested in herps or not.

Maintaining a culture of 100% honesty......... This has brought a smile to my face!

No disrespect meant to you personally Barramundi.


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## Kurto (Jun 23, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Phil, we hear your concerns,
> However we are very different to the US. We have a much larger collection of captive bred morelias, with a larger portion of keepers committed to maintaining pure lines. The US is in trouble as its near impossible for them to get pure lines of morelia. There is always going to be people maintaining pure wild type locales of morelias. I will be one of those people and so are a large number of other morph breeders.
> 
> We are already establishing a culture of morph breeders being 100% honest when labelling and selling their animals. There has been plenty of examples of this on recent for sale ads. This is a good thing.......
> ...



Well said mate! Great to see the Oz morph culture alive and kicking. Exciting times ahead!!


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## PhilK (Jun 23, 2010)

Barramundi I appreciate a lot of people are doing it the right way and have good morals and whatnot but once jags/RPMs or whatever you wanna call them become moe readily available you're kidding yourself if you think it'll stay all peachy as you say.

I understand there will be people doing it the right way and I had no intention of bad mouthing you or them, but people are people and they will always stuff it up it's really quite inevitable IMO. You're right, morphs are becoming more and more popular.. and soon every bloke and his dog will own one and then what will happen? More will get churned out in the hope of exploiting the trend and making a quick buck, the ugly ones will be sold off left right and centre to whomever and before we know it the whole thing will go pear shaped and there'll be no going back.


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## Kurto (Jun 23, 2010)

PhilK said:


> Barramundi I appreciate a lot of people are doing it the right way and have good morals and whatnot but once jags/RPMs or whatever you wanna call them become moe readily available you're kidding yourself if you think it'll stay all peachy as you say.
> 
> I understand there will be people doing it the right way and I had no intention of bad mouthing them, but people are people and they will always stuff it up it's really quite inevitable IMO



PhilK, can you elaborate a little more on how people are going to "stuff it up"??


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

Cement,
Of course there are going to be people that are not going to be honest, but the truth is their are already plenty of people being dishonest with pure lines. 
ie false locales etc. Its a problem with this hobby that has existed foe ever and will never go away......

I cetainly will be maintaining honesty and as stated I will encourage other morph breeders to follow suit, thus creating a culture....

People are concerned about hybrids being sold as something they are not, but hybrids are very distinguishable from pure morelias....

Its the same old scenario, if you dont trust the person dont buy from them. The weeds will be sorted out pretty quick.....


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## PhilK (Jun 23, 2010)

Kurto said:


> PhilK, can you elaborate a little more on how people are going to "stuff it up"??


 
Good morals and intentions will quickly loosen as morphs become readily available and those looking for a quick cash injection will be happy to exploit the trend and breed any old thing and sell to any old person. There will be no careful selection of genetics it will be just wacking two morphs together and selling off what you can.. what happens to the ugly ones? Who cares right? Don't have a nice morph to cross it with, why not be the first person in Australia to breed a diamond bredli jag? It will go the same way as the reptiles in the US I reckon.. natural forms of snakes will be cheap as chips - coastals already go for only around 100 bucks, what's going to happen when the firebelly panther jag morph is around?

As I said I feel confident that the big breeders will have the best interests of the hobby at heart, and will carry out their breeding projects with guidelines and carefully thought out plans while still maintaining 'normal' lines of snakes.. but I don't feel so confident about the general public, and I never will.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

PhilK said:


> Good morals and intentions will quickly loosen as morphs become readily available and those looking for a quick cash injection will be happy to exploit the trend and breed any old thing and sell to any old person. There will be no careful selection of genetics it will be just wacking two morphs together and selling off what you can.. what happens to the ugly ones? Who cares right? Don't have a nice morph to cross it with, why not be the first person in Australia to breed a diamond bredli jag? It will go the same way as the reptiles in the US I reckon.. natural forms of snakes will be cheap as chips - coastals already go for only around 100 bucks, what's going to happen when the firebelly panther jag morph is around?
> 
> As I said I feel confident that the big breeders will have the best interests of the hobby at heart, and will carry out their breeding projects with guidelines and carefully thought out plans while still maintaining 'normal' lines of snakes.. but I don't feel so confident about the general public, and I never will.



WHAT HAPPENS TO THE UGLY ONES? same as what happens now, people wont buy them as they are not desirable and the breeder wont attempt that pairing again. As said before hybrids are very distinguishable, so it will be very hard to pass them off as something else.....

DIAMOND BREDLI JAG? dont know about you but I think they are pretty hot....

GONNA GO LIKE THE US? already has, except we have a solution at the end of the morph era, we have a much larger access to keepers maintaining pure lines....


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

Phil 
I do see your point and its a valid one.


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## PhilK (Jun 23, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> WHAT HAPPENS TO THE UGLY ONES? same as what happens now, people wont buy them as they are not desirable and the breeder wont attempt that pairing again. As said before hybrids are very distinguishable, so it will be very hard to pass them off as something else.....


What happens when a pair breeds and produces 5 stunners and 10 uglies? These uglies won't be euthanased (well probably not) they will be sold to the buyer at a greatly reduced cost.. may be bred by that buyer and pass on their gross genes haha.. how is that good?



> DIAMOND BREDLI JAG? dont know about you but I think they are pretty hot....


Sure but what about the rest of the clutch that aren't? They will get sold off for cheap and go into the gene pool with their crossed genetics and muddy the waters. I can appreciate a 'pretty looking snake' but I think hybrids are a dangerous road this hobby will travel down and in 50 years most snakes getting around will be some sort of mongrel.



> GONNA GO LIKE THE US? already has, except we have a solution at the end of the morph era, we have a much larger access to keepers maintaining pure lines....


 I certainly hope you're right Barramundi and I'd like to travel 50 years into the future and see what the hobby is like in Australia.

You can think what you like, but I am entitled to my own opinion and that is that despite the best intentions of some breeders, human error will take over as always.

Cheers


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

As said you are entitled to your opinion, I do see your point of view and I am sure others do.

We (morph breeders) are listening to those concerns of yours and others and we will certainly do our best to maintain honesty when selling.......


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## Cheyne_Jones (Jun 23, 2010)

Barramundi,

Can I ask you what you do with the sibs? Are you keeping them yourself, selling them as crosses or 'dispatching' of them?

Feel free to pm if you dont wanna explain it over a forum...


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## PhilK (Jun 23, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> As said you are entitled to your opinion, I do see your point of view and I am sure others do.
> 
> We (morph breeders) are listening to those concerns of yours and others and we will certainly do our best to maintain honesty when selling.......


 I'd just like to say that morph breeders such as yourself are not who I am referring to. I have no doubts whatsoever you are not in this for a quick buck and have the hobby's best interests at heart so please don't take what I am saying as an attack on you or others like you.

My concern is based in what will happen when morphs become so readily available every 3rd person owns one.. THAT is when I see problems occurring.

I would also be interested in the answer to CheyneJones question as to what you do with the less pretty siblings


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

I was actually surprised that all buyers of my RPMs actually wanted the sibs to use with further RPM projects. All were passed on fully labelled for what they were.


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## Cheyne_Jones (Jun 23, 2010)

Do you see any advantage in crossing back with the sibs?

Being a co-dom gene wouldnt it be better to put your two best animals together everytime?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

No, I dont see any benefit at this point in time. Except for any sibs that may carry other desired genetics ie caramel, albino.

Although, some of the sibs from my WHITE project will turn out nice and pale and would be good to utilise as a cross back to a WHITE RPM. This should produce some cracker WHITE RPMs.

The Caramel and Albino projects are the tracks I am heading down, so the majority of my sibs in the future will have genetic benefit, either being het for albino or Caramel.

But in the future there obviously will be some benefits to using sibs.....


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## junglepython2 (Jun 23, 2010)

If everyone is about being 100% honest why was the stupid "RPM" term developed in the first place??


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## Tojo (Jun 23, 2010)

Damn that was one hell of a read and learning curve! Look forward to seeing how your White Rpms turn out Barra!


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## iamheretic (Jun 23, 2010)

PhilK said:


> Good morals and intentions will quickly loosen as morphs become readily available and those looking for a quick cash injection will be happy to exploit the trend and breed any old thing and sell to any old person. There will be no careful selection of genetics it will be just wacking two morphs together and selling off what you can.. what happens to the ugly ones? Who cares right? Don't have a nice morph to cross it with, why not be the first person in Australia to breed a diamond bredli jag? It will go the same way as the reptiles in the US I reckon.. natural forms of snakes will be cheap as chips - coastals already go for only around 100 bucks, what's going to happen when the firebelly panther jag morph is around?
> 
> As I said I feel confident that the big breeders will have the best interests of the hobby at heart, and will carry out their breeding projects with guidelines and carefully thought out plans while still maintaining 'normal' lines of snakes.. but I don't feel so confident about the general public, and I never will.


 
Just that paragraph has put me largely on the side of no-morphs. Having woma's and BHP being cheap and overlooked is a frightening thought. Although it would take a lot longer for australia to reach what america has in morphs seeing as america has a much bigger population and a bigger market for reptiles. We also have licences and cross breeding is illegal in QLD (anywhere else?). I wouldn't mind a cross , but wouldn't cross breed them myself or buy more than one. Still on the no morphs side though. Here is a page from an american morph site, some really nice ones, but like philk said, what happens to the ugly ones? I would hate to see the average pure snake being over looked as cheap and bland.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

Tojo said:


> Damn that was one hell of a read and learning curve! Look forward to seeing how your White Rpms turn out Barra!





Cheers TOJO, here is a pic of my original WHITE RPM and a pic of one of the offspring, now owned by another keeper...


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## ntvnm (Jun 23, 2010)

Barra -Stop useing the word Caramel , Caramel is a co-dom mutation with the obvious weird head pattern that originated in the UK. a hypo/normal is not a Caramel.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> Barra -Stop useing the word Caramel , Caramel is a co-dom mutation with the obvious weird head pattern that originated in the UK. a hypo/normal is not a Caramel.


 
Sorry ntvnm, my Caramels were not produced from hypo Coastals. Therefore they are not hypo Coastal RPMs. Although they have the same look as a hypo, they are not produced in the same way as typical Hypo Coastals.....

But you are right it is a co-dom trait that 2 of my Caramel Coastals carry. One of those is the mother to the CARAMELS you have seen in the other thread....


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## nathancl (Jun 23, 2010)

Pike on this site has bred some very jag looking carpets from pure lines of athertons without any imports etc and im sure with selective breeding could have produced some amazing jag looking carpets. unfortunately some one stole them so will never be able to see what would have come of their offspring


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

First 2 photos show Caramel Coastals (not hypo coastals), 3rd photo shows the results when the Caramel genetics are combined with the RPM genetics......(Father is the WHITE RPM in the above post)

As you can see the results do look superficially like a hypo Coastal. However as you can see neither of the parents are true hypos. Half the clutch also hatched out as Caramels, which reflects the working of the Caramel co-dom trait.......


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## kupper (Jun 23, 2010)

I think everyone is over the debate there here embrace or move on

Barra as always brilliant looking animals mate will hopefully be in contact later in the year


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## iamheretic (Jun 23, 2010)

kupper said:


> I think everyone is over the debate there here embrace or move on
> 
> Barra as always brilliant looking animals mate will hopefully be in contact later in the year


 
I guess it won't be as bad as some are saying, and like somone said a page or two back even the not so good looking ones are bought for breeding. We have licences and a smaller population (America has 220 million people, Australia has 22 million, correct me if im wrong) so we definitely wont become like America ovenight. Also, with no export/import, we will have our own unique morphs.

I might add the other day (bored and on laptop) i found an add for an albino blackhead python (it had a picture so i assumed it wasn't a fake). Has this been done in australia yet?


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## chicka (Jun 23, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> Barra -Stop useing the word Caramel , Caramel is a co-dom mutation with the obvious weird head pattern that originated in the UK. a hypo/normal is not a Caramel.[/QUOTE
> there is no doubt they are caramel coastals , the question is similar to the jags,where were they originated from?


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## PhilK (Jun 23, 2010)

kupper said:


> I think everyone is over the debate


 Nine pages of this thread would disagree with that statement


iamheretic said:


> I guess it won't be as bad as some are saying, and like somone said a page or two back even the not so good looking ones are bought for breeding.


The ugly ones are sold for breeding.. how on earth is this a positive? If people go out and buy ugly RPMs for cheap so they can have their own morph line they're just gonna end up with uglies crossed to uglies.. sure even that might pop out a few nice ones but then you're left with MORE uglies... It's a vicious cycle. 


iamheretic said:


> We have licences and a smaller population (America has 220 million people, Australia has 22 million, correct me if im wrong) so we definitely wont become like America ovenight.


Overnight or in 50 years, what does it matter?


iamheretic said:


> Also, with no export/import, we will have our own unique morphs.


No export/import? That is very naive.. how do you think the RPM genes got to Australia? They are jag genes from overseas.. there is always import and export just not legally. It's a crying shame that people in Australia are illegally receiving our OWN snakes that have been fiddled with by foreigners so we can be like them.. blurgh

EDIT: Barra, if the caramels look like hypo coastals, can I ask why you're bothering?


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## ShaunMorelia (Jun 23, 2010)

so...would you buy a RPM PhilK??


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## PhilK (Jun 23, 2010)

The_S_Word said:


> so...would you buy a RPM PhilK??


 Nope


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

There is obviously a clouded history for a number of species in AUS, no one is denying that. All my animals were acquired as either hatchlings or 9 months olds all bred by Southern X. Southern X aquired their RPMs as hatchlings 4 or 5 years ago through trades from other keepers.


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## iamheretic (Jun 23, 2010)

PhilK said:


> The ugly ones are sold for breeding.. how on earth is this a positive? If people go out and buy ugly RPMs for cheap so they can have their own morph line they're just gonna end up with uglies crossed to uglies.. sure even that might pop out a few nice ones but then you're left with MORE uglies... It's a vicious cycle.
> 
> Overnight or in 50 years, what does it matter?
> 
> No export/import? That is very naive.. how do you think the RPM genes got to Australia? They are jag genes from overseas.. there is always import and export just not legally. It's a crying shame that people in Australia are illegally receiving our OWN snakes that have been fiddled with by foreigners so we can be like them.. blurgh



It's really hard to make a snake completely undesirable, so the "uglies" would be sold for cheap, somone would love them.

It was a general statement, i know there is illegal stuff going on, but to the general market there is not a lot of illegal morphs. Jags maybe but there isn't many of them. If our morphs were to be exported they would cost a lot, and most people would not be able to get one. General statements, big picture as opposed to the little picture. If you know what i mean


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

Cris,
I for one, am no criminal and neither are any of the keepers who have aquired RPMs from myself and other keepers.

Yes I own and breed RPMs/Jags. However I aquired them captive bred in AUS and on permit. I have since bred my RPMs/Jags and sold them all on permit. There is no difference to this scenario and the scenario surrounding 95% of GTPs. Yet I dont ever hear you crying foul over that situation......

Secondly, RPMs/Jags are native pythons, 99.9% of RPMs/Jags that are in Aus have been legitametely bred and sold. 

I can see you are quite unhappy with this situation, but blindly labelling people criminals is a bit over the top....


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## aussie-albino (Jun 23, 2010)

some very nice looking pythons there Barra

cheers
Scott


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

cheers Scotty1, there will be more bred this season, so keep an eye out.....


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## ShadowDragon (Jun 23, 2010)

Of course, every animal that's on license has been lily white from hatching, and their ancestors....


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## aussie-albino (Jun 23, 2010)

Cheers Barra I will be
Scott


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jun 23, 2010)

RPM/JAG clutch hatching, sorry about the size, but you get the idea....


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## cougars (Jun 23, 2010)

You have some awesome looking snakes Barra


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## jinjajoe (Jun 23, 2010)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Cris,
> I for one, am no criminal and neither are any of the keepers who have aquired RPMs from myself and other keepers.
> 
> Yes I own and breed RPMs/Jags. However I aquired them captive bred in AUS and on permit. I have since bred my RPMs/Jags and sold them all on permit. There is no difference to this scenario and the scenario surrounding 95% of GTPs. Yet I dont ever hear you crying foul over that situation......
> ...



Nail on the head......... If you don't like them don't buy them...... my money is on all the Nay-sayers owning them eventually.


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## Colin (Jun 23, 2010)

this thread had degenerated into some nasty comments and name calling and I think its about time it was closed


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