# The big debate.



## da_donkey (Jun 17, 2007)

With the threads popping up recently on morphs and hybrids i thought i would open the can of worms again with a poll.

Before you flame me with "this has been done to death", 

APS IMO is becoming used more and more by "younger" and "newer" people to the hobby, and i am very interested in what they think on this debate. 

cheers 

donk


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## da_donkey (Jun 17, 2007)

Feel free to add comments on what you think.

And please dont pick on anyone because of how they feel on the subject, everyone is entitled to there opinion, if you think it is right or wrong is only your opinion.

cheers 

donk


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## Lozza (Jun 17, 2007)

colour morphs etc within a species are cool and diversify the available species nicely

I dont really agree with hybrids (I wouldnt get one) but it depends on how close the species are to how wrong it is imo.
eg. that woma x carpet is so wrong but I can understand a coastal x diamond. 

that said some hybrids do look pretty eg GTPxcarpet -jmo
so really its all down to personal preference I guess


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## raxor (Jun 17, 2007)

I'm a newbie to the hobby and have purebreds (..as far as I know ).. but in my opinion (cuz everyone cares about my opinion) as long as the animals are sold as what they actually are, it's okay to have hybrids.

Maybe a reptile pedigree association could be started up to help ensure animals that are sold as purebreds are in fact just that.. it could also help to curb grossly inbreeding animals (which, in my opinion is also not good).

It would take a lot of work and some very dedicated hobbyists to start up though.


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## Tatelina (Jun 17, 2007)

Who wants to clarify what is what for the youngens?
As in a hybrid is...................and a morph is...........differences being.............?


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## Bryony (Jun 17, 2007)

raxor said:


> as long as the animals are sold as what they actually are


 
I agree, if you know what you are getting then i dont really care hybrid or morph as long as they are happy and healthy and pretty 

Some people have very strong opinions about this and get all high and mighty about how wrong this is....but the reality is it happens species wide and always will.


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## Greebo (Jun 17, 2007)

I have read a few comments about the amount of young herpers on this site. Just by looking at who is online right now, there are more 'older' members online than teenagers. Perhaps it just seems like there are more young herpers as they tend to post a lot more than some of the older members. I'm not saying this is a bad thing...although some of the advice they give makes me laugh sometimes. Fortunately there are plenty of experienced herpers on APS to give the right advice when it is needed.


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## hornet (Jun 17, 2007)

i actually think say a carpetxball is better than a carpet x diamond, crossing species that look very different its going to be very hard to pass them off as pure where as there are plenty of muddied lines of carpets going around and no1 is the wiser. At least there are still people focusing on breeding locality specific animals, as long as we have people like that there is some hope for the hobby.


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## da_donkey (Jun 17, 2007)

Well so far we have learnt that, almost as many people hate me as they do hybrids:lol:

"bumpity"

Cheers 

donk


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## hornet (Jun 17, 2007)

haha we dont hate ya donk


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## hornet (Jun 17, 2007)

unless your really a mule that was sold as a donkey, then there would be problems


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## Manda1032 (Jun 17, 2007)

it's ok if it's unintentional, just don't do it again. Don't breed from them, morphs are kool. breeding from different localities is ok but really what do you get from xing localities? But half the time you just don't know!!!! but I do feel intentionally xing one genus with another is wrong


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## Ramsayi (Jun 17, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Well so far we have learnt that, almost as many people hate me as they do hybrids:lol:
> 
> "bumpity"
> 
> ...



Awwwwwwwwwww Donk its ok.I voted for ya


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## Ramsayi (Jun 17, 2007)

Manda1032 said:


> it's ok if it's unintentional, just don't do it again. Don't breed from them, morphs are kool. breeding from different localities is ok but really what do you get from xing localities? But half the time you just don't know!!!! but I do feel intentionally xing one genus with another is wrong



Unintentional?
Any keeper who unitentionally crosses something is a complete and utter moron or is a liar,take your pick.


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## Yann (Jun 17, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> Who wants to clarify what is what for the youngens?
> As in a hybrid is...................and a morph is...........differences being.............?



I agree with Tatelina...
Can anybody explain the difference between morphs and hybrids to us newbies...?
Well I guess I understand what hybrids are: snakes born from 2 different species (or sub-species)...
What about morphs...?
I guess it has been answered in other threads, but as it was mentioned in the first post, this subject has been mentioned in many threads... so why not recap the basics here and now and tell the _young_ or _new_ keepers what they really are, and if it's good for our passion: the snakes themselves....

Thanks to you all.....

Cheers,
Yann.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 17, 2007)

Whats the difference between option one and four?


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## lauraschram (Jun 17, 2007)

im my mind hybrids are okay if they are not miss represented to buyers and if records are kept so in the end someone still has some 'pure' snakes. It would be a problem if, like dingoes, there are none left in the end that are pure but i cant see that really happening- there are too many people who love each type for what it is


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## hornet (Jun 17, 2007)

a morph is just a genetic mutation, it can happen at anytime, albino, hypo, hyper etc are all morphs, they are pure species but there was a mistake in the dna and it may be missing a color or have extra, a hybrid is a cross between 2 species or subspecies, bredli x jungle, carpet x ball, coastal x diamond.


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## Aslan (Jun 17, 2007)

lauraschram said:


> It would be a problem if, like dingoes, there are none left in the end that are pure but i cant see that really happening


 
That is exactly what will happen - you only have to look at overseas collections and forums to find out how difficult it is to get your hands on many 'pure' snakes let alone locality specific snakes...


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## Yann (Jun 17, 2007)

hornet said:


> a morph is just a genetic mutation, it can happen at anytime, albino, hypo, hyper etc are all morphs, they are pure species but there was a mistake in the dna and it may be missing a color or have extra, a hybrid is a cross between 2 species or subspecies, bredli x jungle, carpet x ball, coastal x diamond.



Thanks hornet...
Things are clearer to me now...
Now I've got one more question, and don't have a go at me for it, please...
Why would people cross different species or sub-species...? It's like crossing a cat with a dog, or a chimp with a gorilla... It doesn't make sense to me...
Is it because people want to be some _little Dr Frankeinstein_ trying out experiments, or are they looking for the _perfect breed_...?

Thanks
Yann.


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## hornet (Jun 17, 2007)

i have no idea why people do it to be honest


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## Khagan (Jun 17, 2007)

Yann said:


> Thanks hornet...
> Things are clearer to me now...
> Now I've got one more question, and don't have a go at me for it, please...
> Why would people cross different species or sub-species...? It's like crossing a cat with a dog, or a chimp with a gorilla... It doesn't make sense to me...
> ...



Wanting to be the '1st to have one' and money obviously.


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## scam7278 (Jun 17, 2007)

i was going to pick the last one donk BUT you are too entertaining to loose


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## coxy (Jun 17, 2007)

hornet said:


> unless your really a mule that was sold as a donkey, then there would be problems


Well he did cross breed with a dragon 
so his offspring are hybrid


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## Rennie (Jun 17, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> Whats the difference between option one and four?



The difference (I assume) is that some people like morphs like albinism, hypomelanism, hypermelanism, striping, etc. as its something different or more aesthetically pleasing.

Whether it is because they just like them to look "natural" or because of the inbreeding involved to produce them, some people like their snakes COMPLETELY PURE and as nature intended.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 17, 2007)

Rennie said:


> The difference (I assume) is that some people like morphs like albinism, hypomelanism, hypermelanism, striping, etc. as its something different or more aesthetically pleasing.
> 
> Whether it is because they just like them to look "natural" or because of the inbreeding involved to produce them, some people like their snakes COMPLETELY PURE and as nature intended.


 
Morphs can be completely pure also, and due to line breeding may be more pure then most snakes on the market.


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## Rennie (Jun 17, 2007)

Yes, morphs can be pure species, but do they look like the majority of their wild, native cousins? Some purists only like them in their "natural" form, no extra stripes or fancy colours.
You asked the difference between options 1 & 4, and I answered as I understand it.


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## m.punja (Jun 17, 2007)

Question. If the last option gets the most votes does that mean Donk gets the boot?


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## rockman (Jun 17, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> Unintentional?
> Any keeper who unitentionally crosses something is a complete and utter moron or is a liar,take your pick.



Ramsayi , don't hold back , tell us what you really think ? . LOL


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## da_donkey (Jun 17, 2007)

m.punja said:


> Question. If the last option gets the most votes does that mean Donk gets the boot?


 
Geez i hope not :shock:

donk


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 17, 2007)

OK I think its time...

I must confess..... Although I have been keeping this under wraps as I already have enough opinions to be flamed for LOL....

But.... I am a Hybrid lover.....

IMO..... I don't see anything wrong with 'hybrids' and i use that term very loosely.... i prefer to think of them as crosses..... the way I see it by definition a 'hybrid' would be a crossing of say liasis x morelia..... anyway thats not the issue...

If this hobby becomes like the dog or cat etc hobby then i don't really see the problem. We all love our muts from the rspca dont we??? it is not hard to find a pure bred dog or cat and they will always fetch the top prices rightfully.

I think that if a snake is to be kept as a pet (yes i do believe they are pets by definition but thats a whole other argument i'll be badgered for) then what's wrong with supplying aesthetically pleasing pet snakes whether they be 'hybrids' or not. If this were to happen I believe the hobby would expand, which would see more public awareness/acceptance, more buyers, which means better for the breeders already in the hobby and every other non breeding herper because of products etc becoming more readily available. 

By the way i'm not saying the hobby won't expand without crosses i'll make that clear.

I do agree with everyone that they should be sold as they are.

I don't know about everyone else but i would give a kidney (cos i'm female and i don't have a left nut lol) for a Jungle Jag which is a cross.

FLAME SUIT ON......


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## Chimera (Jun 17, 2007)

Had to go for the last option, not because I want to see you go but for pure comical value.

Keep em coming


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## Bryony (Jun 17, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> FLAME SUIT ON......


 
LOL
Don't worry baby i tend to agree with you 

As long as they are sold as whatever hybrid/cross they are who cares?

I have 2 mutt dogs....not a slight chance of them being anything but that and they are the best dogs.
Most people here who breed mice cross breed them, intentionally for better breeding production whats the difference?


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## Ramsayi (Jun 17, 2007)

Bryony said:


> LOL
> Don't worry baby i tend to agree with you
> 
> As long as they are sold as whatever hybrid/cross they are who cares?
> ...



yes but mutts aint hybrids nor are mice


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## Greebo (Jun 17, 2007)

m.punja said:


> Question. If the last option gets the most votes does that mean Donk gets the boot?



No. This site is not run democratically


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 17, 2007)

The first meaning is the result of interbreeding between two animals or plants of different taxa. Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as *interspecific* hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different sub-species within a species are known as *intra-specific* hybrids. Hybrids between different genera are known as *intergeneric* hybrids.

Not directed at anyone just thought the definition would be useful.


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## serenaphoenix (Jun 17, 2007)

how about... who cares? as long as they're healthy?


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 17, 2007)

Bryony said:


> LOL
> Don't worry baby i tend to agree with you
> 
> As long as they are sold as whatever hybrid/cross they are who cares?
> ...


 
thank you bryony


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## cris (Jun 17, 2007)

I only think hybrids are good if they are trying to create small flying dragons that breathe fire, how cool would that be.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Jun 17, 2007)

super cool.

I'd get one!

Other than flying dragons that breathe fire, I prefer pures and morphs, simply because I think they look better than hybrids. If i ever saw a hybrid I liked, I might consider buying it. maybe.


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## MMAnne (Jun 17, 2007)

Yann said:


> Thanks hornet...
> Things are clearer to me now...
> Now I've got one more question, and don't have a go at me for it, please...
> Why would people cross different species or sub-species...? It's like crossing a cat with a dog, or a chimp with a gorilla... It doesn't make sense to me...
> ...


 
I have always thought it is more like crossing a burmese with a persian etc, not crossing two different animals.

But anyway, I am sort of in the middle with my opinion. I don't disagree with people crossing different species of snake to create hybrids but I don't want it to become difficult to find pures in the future as someone mentioned has happened in overseas countries.


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## steve6610 (Jun 17, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> OK I think its time...
> 
> I must confess..... Although I have been keeping this under wraps as I already have enough opinions to be flamed for LOL....
> 
> ...



LMAO, well babe, you have finally come out of the closet, i have tought you well my dear, just goes to show all those nasty pms you got sent about me and my reputation were sent way to late, i already had you under my spell, spoken like a trueblue hybred/cross lover, 
no guesses what i voted for, haha, 

the difference between overseas and australia as to pure snakes is that the ones that want pure snakes just have to go catch some more, then they can have LOCATION pure snakes again, but they can't overseas, 

thats it for me, flame suit has been put on, and i'll see you all in a couple weeks, hahahaha.......

ps swing, well said babe, lol, welcome to the dark side...........................


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## Bryony (Jun 17, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> yes but mutts aint hybrids nor are mice


I know, i did say hybrid/crosses.

Mutts and mice are intentionally crossed bred and i dont see the difference between that and snakes being cross bred for a purpose of looks


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## ihaveherps (Jun 17, 2007)

Hybrids are OK, as long as you have the freezer space to keep them...


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## MrSpike (Jun 17, 2007)

Go Steve and swing! 

My view is this. Hybridization is no different to 2 people from different country's conceiving a child. I wonder how many of the hybrid hater's have parents that are from different countries? Your hybrids... do you hate yourself?

Kane


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## Hetty (Jun 17, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Go Steve and swing!
> 
> My view is this. Hybridization is no different to 2 people from different country's conceiving a child. I wonder how many of the hybrid hater's have parents that are from different countries? Your hybrids... do you hate yourself?
> 
> Kane



Same as the dog argument. Humans are one species.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 17, 2007)

ihaveherps said:


> Hybrids are OK, as long as you have the freezer space to keep them...


 
Or a few king browns in your collection.


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## Bryony (Jun 17, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Go Steve and swing!
> 
> My view is this. Hybridization is no different to 2 people from different country's conceiving a child. I wonder how many of the hybrid hater's have parents that are from different countries? Your hybrids... do you hate yourself?
> 
> Kane


 
lol
True true


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## Hetty (Jun 17, 2007)

It's more like human cross some other kind of ape, like a Chimpanzee


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## MrSpike (Jun 17, 2007)

thenothing said:


> It's more like human cross some other kind of ape, like a Chimpanzee



A Jungle x Coastal is a hybrid, a Maccie x Stimson is hybrid. A Monkey cross Human is also a Hybrid.


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## Hetty (Jun 17, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> A Jungle x Coastal is a hybrid, a Maccie x Stimson is hybrid. A Monkey cross Human is also a Hybrid.



Did I say anything different? 

I was saying it's not like two humans from different countries.


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## MrSpike (Jun 17, 2007)

thenothing said:


> Did I say anything different?
> 
> I was saying it's not like two humans from different countries.



But thats the thing I was pointing out, it is. Take an Australian (Jungle carpet) and an American (Bredli). If bred together the outcome is a Hybrid, because they are not from the same region.


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## Hetty (Jun 17, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> But thats the thing I was pointing out, it is. Take an Australian (Jungle carpet) and an American (Bredli). If bred together the outcome is a Hybrid, because they are not from the same region.



I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying a Bredli X Jungle? because that's a hybrid anyway. Or, are you talking about locality - American X Australian?


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## junglepython2 (Jun 17, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> But thats the thing I was pointing out, it is. Take an Australian (Jungle carpet) and an American (Bredli). If bred together the outcome is a Hybrid, because they are not from the same region.


 
It's a hybrid because it's two different species, it has nothing to do with one being from America.


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## MrSpike (Jun 17, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> It's a hybrid because it's two different species, it has nothing to do with one being from America.



No no no, you've got it all wrong, I'm right


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## Australis (Jun 17, 2007)

You can compare it to as many things as you like but at the end of the day these are our native animals, something to cherish. not taint.

Maybe some people need to get off their **** and go herping in the Australian Bush!


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## steve6610 (Jun 17, 2007)

Australis said:


> You can compare it to as many things as you like but at the end of the day these are our native animals, something to cherish. not taint.
> 
> Maybe some people need to get off their **** and go herping in the Australian Bush!



yes, heaps better then spending their days sending pms running other members down, or talking about them in chat, haha, what colour are your eyes, GREEN.....................


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## Reaper (Jun 17, 2007)

purist's will hate this but IMO hybrids are ok IF thats what there sold as and u know exactly what u are getting. i find it amusing that most people would love a true jag including alot of purist's( if it exsisted in aus, not saying it does or does not exsist in aus just trying not cause another lenghthy debate over this subject) ANYWAY.... from what i can gather( now im not an expert) there is great debate over the true bloodlines of the parenting animals responsible for the jag's. alot of credable people believe they were created from a coastal and a jungle and not the pure coastals like we are told....BUT what an animal the jag is!..... if it were to be confirmed that they were actualy created by crossbreading would u still want one??? i know i would!! BUT thats just my opinion
imagine a green tree python with jungle markings!! i'd pay for that!! 
cheers.
FLAME SUIT ON!!


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## Craig2 (Jun 18, 2007)

whats the deal with the flame suits and the this is just my opinion 
if you belive it stand up for it


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## Yann (Jun 18, 2007)

Hey guys...

Excuse me again for my ignorance....
As it was said before, the main risk is the shortage of pure breeds, which would make native animal the dearest ones available on the market... (it is the case in some other countries)
My next question is:
Can you buy an hybrid without knowing it is one? I mean, is there any physical evidence that the snake is an hybrid?
Why would someone sell an hybrid as pure anyway? It cannot only be a question of money, but I can't imagine it is in the sole goal of destroying the pure native fauna...
I can understand the "I want to have it first" reason why people would create hybrids, but can they just sell them as pure just because the creation failed and the snake isn't as beautiful or unique as expected?
I agree that an hybrid should be sold as what it is, not pure, basically because the buyer might want to breed pure hatchies, plus it is only fair to know what you're buying...
I don't know if I made myself clear, excuse my poor english... but this whole hybrid thingy starts to confuse me and draws a dark picture over the breeding of snakes... After all, can we trust anybody, even the most famous and respected breeders...?

Cheers,
Yann.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 18, 2007)

Yann said:


> Hey guys...
> 
> Excuse me again for my ignorance....
> As it was said before, the main risk is the shortage of pure breeds, which would make native animal the dearest ones available on the market... (it is the case in some other countries)
> ...


 
A lot of hybrids look identical to pure snakes especially if a hybrid has been crossed back to a pure snake then the offspring will be 3/4 of one snake and 1/4 the other with further crosses it becomes harder and harder to tell and often impossible.
A lot get sold as pure because they are generally worth more, unless a hybrid throws out something unusual, they are pretty cheap and most people won't touch them other then for a kids pet, which a pure snake is just as good for. A lot of people would also buy a snake not knowing what it is and then later on become labelled as a pure snake when it's not.


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 18, 2007)

Australis said:


> Maybe some people need to get off their **** and go herping in the Australian Bush!


 
Been there done that, still doing it, even today when its freezing and raining (damn keelbacks) lol and my opinion is still the same....

Hmmm if i had said something like that I wouldve been talkin myself up apparently 



Yann said:


> Hey guys...
> 
> Excuse me again for my ignorance....
> As it was said before, the main risk is the shortage of pure breeds, which would make native animal the dearest ones available on the market... (it is the case in some other countries)


 
Whats wrong with pure snakes fetching the best prices???? just like the dog/cat hobby..... and they already do.... we're all seeing hybrids pop up now and they are considerably cheaper than pures.... and rightfully so.


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 18, 2007)

ponybug said:


> ps swing, well said babe, lol, welcome to the dark side...........................


 
Sweetie u have seen me in person..... i've always been on the dark side.... do i own any other colour clothing than black??? LOL.....

Although on the other hand.... i am not closed minded about anything.... therefore i have seen the light lol


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## Australis (Jun 18, 2007)

ponybug said:


> yes, heaps better then spending their days sending pms running other members down, or talking about them in chat, haha, what colour are your eyes, GREEN.....................



Im not really following why you have quoted my post and replied with such random comments, are they ment to be directed at me?

I dont send Pm's running people down, infact i dont like PM's period.

And i sure as hell don't have "GREEN" eyes over people breeding mongrel animals.


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## m.punja (Jun 18, 2007)

Greebo said:


> No. This site is not run democratically


Lucky for Donk. At the moment the dislike ppl have for in (no doubt in a comical way) is only second off to dislike for hybrids. lol.


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## beeman (Jun 18, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> Unintentional?
> Any keeper who unitentionally crosses something is a complete and utter moron or is a liar,take your pick.


 

agrees with ramsayi!!!!!!!!!


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## beeman (Jun 18, 2007)

went into a pet/reptile shop in melbourne yesterday and 
was totally discusted, all they had for sale was about 
15plus crossbred jungles and diamond juvies, 
Not the first time time going to this shop and all they seem to sell
is crossbred pythons and for the same sort of money that you would expect
to pay for true to type breeds


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## Southside Morelia (Jun 18, 2007)

beeman said:


> went into a pet/reptile shop in melbourne yesterday and
> was totally discusted, all they had for sale was about
> 15plus crossbred jungles and diamond juvies,
> Not the first time time going to this shop and all they seem to sell
> ...


I'd be interested how you came to the conclusion that the jungle "JUVIES" were crosses, it would be very difficult to tell at that age, seeing there are so many variations to the specie!
Crossed with what?
And the diamonds, what were they crossed with, in your opinion, I would like to hear your learned appraisal on that comment.
Not to say it doesn't happen, more interested in what you think they are crossed with, could be interesting...
Pics or it didn't happen !!!


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## beeman (Jun 18, 2007)

scm1 said:


> I'd be interested how you came to the conclusion that the jungle "JUVIES" were crosses, it would be very difficult to tell at that age, seeing there are so many variations to the specie!
> Crossed with what?
> And the diamonds, what were they crossed with, in your opinion, I would like to hear your learned appraisal on that comment.
> Not to say it doesn't happen, more interested in what you think they are crossed with, could be interesting...
> Pics or it didn't happen !!!


 

they were crossed with coastals, wasnt hard to find out
as they quite happly tell you what they are.....


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## junglepython2 (Jun 18, 2007)

beeman said:


> they were crossed with coastals, wasnt hard to find out
> as they quite happly tell you what they are.....


 
Were they advertised as crosses or just as jungles and diamonds?


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## beeman (Jun 18, 2007)

they were advertised as crosses, which is a positive thing as not trying to hide the fact,
but every time i have been in that shop all they seem to have is crossbreds


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## Australis (Jun 18, 2007)

beeman said:


> they were advertised as crosses, which is a positive thing as not trying to hide the fact,
> but every time i have been in that shop all they seem to have is crossbreds



Maybe they get them really dirty cheap, making them profitable.


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## mysnakesau (Jun 18, 2007)

lozza said:


> colour morphs etc within a species are cool and diversify the available species nicely
> 
> I dont really agree with hybrids (I wouldnt get one) but it depends on how close the species are to how wrong it is imo.
> eg. that woma x carpet is so wrong but I can understand a coastal x diamond.
> ...



I don't believe in hybrids. I even think the diamond x coastal is still just as bad. There are so many intergrades and crosses of these too, it is getting harder to find a good pure diamond, and you'll see their prices go up the harder they become to find. JMO.


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## da_donkey (Jun 18, 2007)

Well at this stage it looks like im not gonna get booted (touch wood) :lol::lol:

Great comments guys

But i think its time we had some of the older / experienced people step up and post there opinions, because i can say that i have been a little supprised with the majority of posts so far.

donk


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## mysnakesau (Jun 19, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> Who wants to clarify what is what for the youngens?
> As in a hybrid is...................and a morph is...........differences being.............?



I haven't read all the posts so please excuse me if someone else has already answered.

A hybrid is a deliberate cross breeding between 2 different species.

a morph is a natural occuring change within a species eg. an albino is a morph.


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## slim6y (Jun 19, 2007)

Do dog forums have this EXACT same debate?


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## grimbeny (Jun 19, 2007)

I doubt any cross breed dog is worth much money so probably not...


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2007)

Well Donk...

My feelings about hybrids are very well known. I have a museum background where I worked with scientists a lot of the time (for 30-odd years) and I guess that makes me fairly conservative where this issue is concerned.

To hybridise our native animals, which we are licensed by the Crown to hold, and over which we should always exert the very best of stewardship, is just pure vandalism. Simply because some lightweight wants a "pretty" animal in their collection is not reason enough to compromise the future of species we hold in captivity. Although animals are taken from the wild and moved into the systen all the time, the captive pool of animals is a fairly closed resource. Those who give little thought to the debate (and there have been a LOT of them here) say it's OK as long as they are sold with the requisite history. That's just pure crap - how many animals retain their history with them as they move through the system?

Those who support hybridisation reflect a very poor understanding of their responsibilty with regard to species management and conservation, especially in this country, which has the biggest number of python species/subspecies in the world, many of which are very closely related indeed. Unfortunately this is used as an excuse by many to mix and match whatever they like to get something bright, shiny and unique. Sadly, for even one unusual and attractive hybrid, there may be dozens of plain or indifferent looking animals which are sold off at base prices to pet shops and unsuspecting private buyers. Once the genetics are mixed, they can't be unmixed...

I am a fairly high profile user of another site, and my views are very well known there. I could put a dozen reasons why hybridising is unethical into this debate, and not one of those rreasons can be refuted logically. It always comes back to "I like them and so I will breed them" or (and this is very strange...) "I would never have one myself buy I support the right of others to do as they wish with their animals..." Basically "I can do what I like regardless of the consequences."

Those who support hybridising usually say there are no negative consequences. This too is crap. Reptile breeding in numbers is a relatively new phenomenon worldwide (really the last 20-30 years has seen huge changes in our understanding of how to do this) so it really is just the beginning of a practice the world has never seen before. With the increasing availability of reptiles as pets, many of these are falling into the hands of people who should NEVER be trusted with this valuable resource. We don't even have a basic understanding of the species/subspecies we have now.

I guess it's a symptom of impatience - there are extraordinary examples of line-bred pure species/subspecies out there, but they may take 10 or 15 years of careful breeding to develop consistent results, and these progeny are usually top shelf in terms of price. I see this as a legitimate use of the resource we all rely on. But how many new keepers out there want something spectacular, and see a way of getting it by putting 2 differing (and cheaper)species/subspecies together to see if they can crack the big time in their first 12 months?

I challenge anyone who intends to hybridise their animals to discuss their plans with their state fauna authorities, and see how they fare. Their credibility as responsible keepers would be zilch.

Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2007)

Gawd - that's what I mean about the level of debate on this one...

For about the 10th time on this thread alone - DOGS ARE A SINGLE SPECIES, THEY ARE NOT HYBRIDS - THE DIFFERENT BREEDS, FROM CHIHUAHUAS TO WOLFHOUNDS AND BEYOND, ARE ALL THE SAME SPECIES. A MIX BETWEEN THE TWO IS NOT A HYBRID!!!!!!!

Jamie


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## shnimpon (Jun 19, 2007)

i noce bread a bulldog and a shizu

i called it a bull*****


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## junglist* (Jun 19, 2007)

Rennie said:


> The difference (I assume) is that some people like morphs like albinism, hypomelanism, hypermelanism, striping, etc. as its something different or more aesthetically pleasing.
> 
> Whether it is because they just like them to look "natural" or because of the inbreeding involved to produce them, some people like their snakes COMPLETELY PURE and as nature intended.



Conveniently looking the other way from WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES, THAT THERE IS NO PURE IN NATURE.


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## junglist* (Jun 19, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> A Jungle x Coastal is a hybrid, a Maccie x Stimson is hybrid. A Monkey cross Human is also a Hybrid.



But the analogy of interlocality individuals of the same species being hybrids means also that a norwegian PERSON who mates with a Peruvian is also a hybrid.


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## mysnakesau (Jun 19, 2007)

GO JAMIE!!! You tell them  & I will back you up. 

Hybridisng is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged.


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 19, 2007)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gawd - that's what I mean about the level of debate on this one...
> 
> For about the 10th time on this thread alone - DOGS ARE A SINGLE SPECIES, THEY ARE NOT HYBRIDS - THE DIFFERENT BREEDS, FROM CHIHUAHUAS TO WOLFHOUNDS AND BEYOND, ARE ALL THE SAME SPECIES. A MIX BETWEEN THE TWO IS NOT A HYBRID!!!!!!!
> 
> Jamie


 
I never said that cross bred dogs were hybrids..... I just stated the similarities between to the dog and herp hobby as I am involved in both.


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## mysnakesau (Jun 19, 2007)

I agree with what Jamie says, but I want to throw another question in - i am still trying to get my head around the difference between a morph and a hybrid. i am certainly not sticking up for hybrids so don't get the wrong idea..

If a dog is a dog is a dog and you say a cross from one breed to another is not a hybrid, so what makes one python species different to another python species? Example a jungle x coastal is considered a hybrid - they are both carpet pythons so what makes breeding these 2 together a hybrid.


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 19, 2007)

mysnakesau said:


> If a dog is a dog is a dog and you say a cross from one breed to another is not a hybrid, so what makes one python species different to another python species? Example a jungle x coastal is considered a hybrid - they are both carpet pythons so what makes breeding these 2 together a hybrid.


 
My point exactly..... a jungle and a normal coastal are different subspecies therefore making them an *intra-specific* hybrid... i posted the definition on the 2nd or 3rd page i think.


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## Miss Morph-lette (Jun 19, 2007)

MrSpike said:


> Go Steve and swing!
> 
> My view is this. Hybridization is no different to 2 people from different country's conceiving a child. I wonder how many of the hybrid hater's have parents that are from different countries? Your hybrids... do you hate yourself?
> 
> Kane


 

Of course we don't hate ourselves  We are now superior to you in many many different ways! 

And with that we will take over the world! Muahahahahahaha!!

*cough*

erm..

Hehe... 

well...


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## Bryony (Jun 19, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> My point exactly..... a jungle and a normal coastal are different subspecies therefore making them an *intra-specific* hybrid... i posted the definition on the 2nd or 3rd page i think.



See this is the exact reason why people get confused.
For people to form an opinion they need all the facts and the education to make a complete decision.

I agree we should preserve our 'pure' lines but i also don't mind intra-specific hybrids (some animals only).

As for the dog debate/putting it in dog lovers terms

Family Canidae (coyotes, dogs, foxes, jackals, and wolves) 
- domestic dogs are all canis lupus familiaris

With in sub-species (lupus) is dingo, domestic dog and gray wolf (non aussie) - this would be intra-specific

Crossing a fox and a dog would be considered a hybrid


Please correct me if i am wrong


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 19, 2007)

Bryony said:


> See this is the exact reason why people get confused.
> For people to form an opinion they need all the facts and the education to make a complete decision.
> 
> I agree we should preserve our 'pure' lines but i also don't mind intra-specific hybrids.
> ...


 
YAY for Bryony lol...

You obviously know heaps about dogs (my experience is only with show and agility)..... do you know why say a border collie is not a different sub species to say a huskie or whatever??? wouldnt this mean that they are from different locales, with totally different appearances and husbandry needs etc would that not warrent a different sub species in your opinion????

Sorry for off topic


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## Bryony (Jun 19, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> know why say a border collie is not a different sub species to say a huskie or whatever??? wouldnt this mean that they are from different locales, with totally different appearances and husbandry needs etc would that not warrent a different sub species in your opinion????



Well i couldn't find any further information on domestic dogs classifications but i tend to agree. That point was also going to be my argument. I am not sure if cause they are domesticated they just all fall into the general species? I have a more extensive breed specific book at home so hopefully it will clear this up for us


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## junglepython2 (Jun 19, 2007)

All domesticated dogs are very closely related and are all part of the same sub-species despite their morhphological differences. Last I heard most of these differences are put down to only about 12 gene locus.

Despite the morphological differences between a jack russel and a great dane crossing the two would be more analogous to crossing a pure yellow diamond with a white diamond python, then to crossing a diamond with a coastal and its nothing at all like crossing a coastal with a woma for example.


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## swingonthespiral (Jun 19, 2007)

Bryony said:


> Well i couldn't find any further information on domestic dogs classifications but i tend to agree. That point was also going to be my argument. I am not sure if cause they are domesticated they just all fall into the general species? I have a more extensive breed specific book at home so hopefully it will clear this up for us


 
I'm gonna put my foot in it but i think herps are domesticated...... if anyone wants to look up the actual definition of domestic..... but thats a new thread and new argument to start and be flamed for LMAO

But thanks Bryony..... if you could pm me with what you find in that book it owuld be awesome...


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## Hickson (Jun 19, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> do you know why say a border collie is not a different sub species to say a huskie or whatever??? wouldnt this mean that they are from different locales, with totally different appearances and husbandry needs etc would that not warrent a different sub species in your opinion????



All domestic dogs are evolved from the wolf (originally, many thousands of years ago). Overtime, as Homo sapiens spread across the globe to occupy all manner of environments, dog varieties were either linebred for certain characteristics or natural selection favoured certain characteristics. But they are all the same rootstock and can be bred back to one another. The only thing stopping a Chihuahua mating with an Irish Wolfhound is the physical logistics, not genetics. And the Irish Wolfhound's apetite.

And for those wondering about the word morph - it's a contraction of morphology, or "morphological features". The Homo saps in my office has many different morphs - black hair, blond, brunette, blue eyes, brown eyes, ear lobes attached or hanging, wavy hair, straight hair etc.



Hix


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## Kali7 (Jun 19, 2007)

If they can breed together, and have young that can breed, then they are by the original definition - the same species. 
However, people stick their racist noses in the air about interbreeding between races, so why not the same attitude for snakes.

*giggle* don't really have an opinion actually, just like to be annoying.


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## Australis (Jun 19, 2007)

swingonthespiral said:


> I'm gonna put my foot in it but i think herps are domesticated...... if anyone wants to look up the actual definition of domestic..... but thats a new thread and new argument to start and be flamed for LMAO




Reptile are now Domestic :shock:


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## slim6y (Jun 19, 2007)

Hix said:


> All domestic dogs are evolved from the wolf (originally, many thousands of years ago). Overtime, as Homo sapiens spread across the globe to occupy all manner of environments, dog varieties were either linebred for certain characteristics or natural selection favoured certain characteristics. But they are all the same rootstock and can be bred back to one another. *The only thing stopping a Chihuahua mating with an Irish Wolfhound is the physical logistics, not genetics.* And the Irish Wolfhound's apetite.
> 
> And for those wondering about the word morph - it's a contraction of morphology, or "morphological features". The Homo saps in my office has many different morphs - black hair, blond, brunette, blue eyes, brown eyes, ear lobes attached or hanging, wavy hair, straight hair etc.
> 
> ...



So has it been done then (artificially at the least?) the wolhuahua?


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## Bryony (Jun 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> All domesticated dogs are very closely related and are all part of the same sub-species despite their morhphological differences. Last I heard most of these differences are put down to only about 12 gene locus.
> 
> Despite the morphological differences between a jack russel and a great dane crossing the two would be more analogous to crossing a pure yellow diamond with a white diamond python, then to crossing a diamond with a coastal and its nothing at all like crossing a coastal with a woma for example.



Ahhhh ok
But then what about dingo and domestic dog? is it cause domestic vs wild? 

From my recent reading( just then lol) all domestic dogs evolved from the gray wolf...then were selectively bred for millenia for various behaviors, sensory capabilities, and physical attributes.

So i think i just answered my own question lol


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## mysnakesau (Jun 19, 2007)

Bryony said:


> - domestic dogs are all canis lupus familiaris
> 
> With in sub-species (lupus) is dingo, domestic dog and gray wolf (non aussie) - this would be intra-specific
> 
> ...



now i am starting to understand (I think). Now correct me if _*I*_ am wrong
So because dogs all come under the one scientific species name, a cross from one breed to another isn't considered hybrid. But a jungle python and coastal do have different scientic names so crossing these 2 is a hybrid even though they are both morelia species? 

I should just forget about trying to understand. I am for pure lines anyway so doesn't matter to me if i never work it out.


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## Bryony (Jun 19, 2007)

hix you were too quick for me lol


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## Hickson (Jun 19, 2007)

slim6y said:


> So has it been done then (artificially at the least?) the wolhuahua?



I've got know idea - but why would you want to? 

Oh yeah, I forgot - for the money. 



Hix


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## junglepython2 (Jun 19, 2007)

Bryony said:


> Ahhhh ok
> But then what about dingo and domestic dog? is it cause domestic vs wild?
> 
> From my recent reading( just then lol) all domestic dogs evolved from the gray wolf...then were selectively bred for millenia for various behaviors, sensory capabilities, and physical attributes.
> ...


 
It has nothing to do with being domestic or not, it's about how closely related they are, which isn't always related to physical appearance, this is why domestic dogs are the same sub-species despite looking so different.
I'm not 100% sure on the dingo but I think they are grouped in with the domestic dog under familaris, and can be regarded as just another breed that has evolved isolated from the main population until very recently.


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## Hickson (Jun 19, 2007)

_Canis lupus lupus _- Grey Wolf
_Canis lupus dingo _- Dingo
_Canis lupus familiaris _- domestic dog (all varieties of domestic breeds).

Until recently (and extensive molecular investigation) dogs were _Canis familiaris familiaris _and Dingos were _C.f. dingo_.

Not sure where _Canis familiaris hallstromi _(New Guinea Singing Dog) falls into all that, but is now probably _Canis lupus hallstromi_



Hix


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## Rennie (Jun 19, 2007)

Why is there more talk about dogs than reptiles in this thread.

THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES!!!!

Dogs = 1 species (genetically nearly identical)
Humans = 1 species (genetically nearly identical)
Snakes = hundreds of species (genetically very different)


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## slim6y (Jun 19, 2007)

Hix said:


> I've got know idea - but why would you want to?
> 
> Oh yeah, I forgot - for the money.
> 
> ...



hehe.. I don't want to - but I will take the money anyways!

I found a rottie/chihuahua on the net - wasn't as malformed as i figured. Almost cute.

And that takes back to the Donk question - if it looks good who cares....? 

Personally, I wasn't aware of the debate going on until i joined this site. And to me it's a kind of fanaticism.

each to their own I say!


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## Frozenmouse (Jun 19, 2007)

As far as herps go i think it would be completely ignorent to say we have studied them enough and know enough about their biology to be confident that certain traits will not be lost for ever by crossing selective breeding ect,
Also the dangers of certain unnatural mophs making their way back into the wild and negatively effecting the wild populations as i am sure has happened.. end of rant..


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## junglist* (Jun 19, 2007)

Rennie said:


> Why is there more talk about dogs than reptiles in this thread.
> 
> THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES!!!!
> 
> ...



WRONG.


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## slim6y (Jun 19, 2007)

junglist* said:


> WRONG.



Dogs are all one species (aren't they?)

Humans are most likely all one species (I think that's correct)

So - are all snakes one species, is that what you're saying?


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## MMAnne (Jun 19, 2007)

It is true that dogs are all one species (except, like someone mentioned, dingos and wolves, etc), while there are hundreds of species of snake.

Even so, that doesn't make it entirely wrong to cross them, even if I do tend to think cross-breeding snakes should remain illegal in Australia. They are not 'forced' as such to mate. Also, the fact that they can produce offspring has to say something whereas a cat and a dog cannot produce offspring together.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 19, 2007)

MMAnne said:


> It is true that dogs are all one species (except, like someone mentioned, dingos and wolves, etc), while there are hundreds of species of snake.
> 
> Even so, that doesn't make it entirely wrong to cross them, even if I do tend to think cross-breeding snakes should remain illegal in Australia. They are not 'forced' as such to mate. Also, the fact that they can produce offspring has to say something whereas a cat and a dog cannot produce offspring together.


 
So just because they can hybridise in artificial conditions it's ok? There is some evidence that chimps and humans could hybridise if that is correct does that make that ok also?


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## Bryony (Jun 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> Last I heard most of these differences are put down to only about 12 gene locus.




How many gene locus does it take for it to be considered a different species?
(Talking snakes here)


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## junglepython2 (Jun 19, 2007)

Bryony said:


> How many gene locus does it take for it to be considered a different species?
> (Talking snakes here)


 
No idea that one is way outta my league:lol: but it wouldn't be a set number, it would also come down to other factors.


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## da_donkey (Jun 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> So just because they can hybridise in artificial conditions it's ok? There is some evidence that chimps and humans could hybridise if that is correct does that make that ok also?


 
Looking at some of the girls i used to go to school with i reckon it has allready happened! :lol:

donk


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## Bryony (Jun 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> No idea that one is way outta my league:lol: but it wouldn't be a set number, it would also come down to other factors.



lol
Well if it was not many that kept one species different from another.....

I would actually like to find out how many gene locus it takes to become a different species.

Also how many between -
humans and apes
2 different snake species
fox and dog


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## m.punja (Jun 19, 2007)

slim6y said:


> Humans are most likely all one species (I think that's correct)
> 
> With brothers like mine, sometimes you wonder.... Nice call Donk  We must have gone to the same school


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## junglepython2 (Jun 19, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Looking at some of the girls i used to go to school with i reckon it has allready happened! :lol:
> 
> donk


 

Haha, all our hybrids were human x gorilla though, too big and hairy for chimps.


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## euan (Jun 19, 2007)

A couple of points.
A few people have said that finding 'pure' snakes overseas is getting difficult. I do not beleive this to be true, I actually beleive it to be the opposite. With regards to the USA go back a few years and carpets were carpets and childrens were childrens, (also in Australia as well) they were all breed together rarely with thought for locality, bred within the super spp rather than the two together. Locality breeding is a very recent trend. So more and more now we find people breeding locality specific animals. I myself grouped all my "childrens" according to their locality many years ago.
But if we think about what actually consists of a spp we run into trouble with locality breeding. What will happen is we will get a line bred specimen which will not be representative of the actual spp. We will get a domesticated animal instead. To breed as a spp we would need to use the zoo small population tables to decide which specimen to mate with which. I do not know many people doing this.
In other words the whole issue is extremely complicated because there is no consences as to what actually distinguishes a spp. So to bring the debate into herpetoculture and 'nit pick' is irresponsible in my mind.
Rather it would be better within the bounds of general understanding of a spp to group breed without regard to the physical i.e. asthetic characteristic of the spp we wish to breed.
For those vermently against hybrids etc... I feel they should attack with a positive rather than a negative. On other threads people have personally attacked others for breeding hybrids, I also note their apparent lack of experience from viewing their prior posts as well. I think it better to promote the virtues of 'pure' spp (as best as a spp is known). It serves no purpose to be negative on the issue.
I do not think it is very relavent to discuss conservation value of most spp as in reality the vast majority of wildlife in captivity has zero conservation value. This is just pandering to the AR extremists with no benefit to the hobby.
To those that say people breed hybrids for money, they obviously have no real understanding of the industry. If anybody knows personally somebody turning a REAL profit from producing hybrid herps please let us know. Because somebody sells an animal, does not mean it is profitable enough to warrent concentration, remember it costs money to bring the offspring to sale.
If you want to look at comparisons look at the bird industry there are many similarities. Yes people push their own points there as well.
Bottom line: as a hybrid and or morph becomes valuable/desirable people will breed them, as they lose their profitability/desirability people will breed less of them.
Solution ??? Go with your own flow, breed yourself what you beleive is desirable to you and don't worry so much about others


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## mysnakesau (Jun 19, 2007)

euan said:


> ....For those vermently against hybrids etc... I feel they should attack with a positive rather than a negative. On other threads people have personally attacked others for breeding hybrids, I also note their apparent lack of experience from viewing their prior posts as well. I think it better to promote the virtues of 'pure' spp (as best as a spp is known). It serves no purpose to be negative on the issue.



I disapprove of hybrids because I beleive it could eventually devestate our pure populations. Particularly ppl breeding for money, hybrids will be given a name, handed across to unknowing ppl and sold of accordingly. for example I bought a python believing I was buying a purebred diamond. I have since had confident opinions who say she is a diamond/carpet intergrade which is a typical species found in my local area. Had I not found the friends I have now, I could have bred with her and sold on babies as pure diamonds - unknowingly selling off something that wasn't pure which would then go into hands of others to be bred with which eventually could wipe out our real diamond pythons. Then you get ppl you do know but rip off the unknowing ppl who know no better. I am not all that good with my words so I hope you can make sense with what I am saying. Hybrids probably wouldn't be a problem if they were sold as hybrids and not given new names to make new herpers believe they have bought something something spectalcular which may not throw that same quality in the generation.


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## MMAnne (Jun 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> So just because they can hybridise in artificial conditions it's ok? There is some evidence that chimps and humans could hybridise if that is correct does that make that ok also?


 
You house a cat and a dog together and see if they mate, because they won't. 

And even though snakes 'are not of the same species' it is not the same as breeding a human and chimp, we all know that. As far as I am concered different species of snake are no different than two people of different colours having children. Yes, their genes are different and they have different scientific names, but what does this change? They are still one animal, have all the same organs and are still one shape. Yes, a Diamond is a different colour than a Jungle but how is that different to Africans having dark skin while the English have white?

Though this isn't my point. The snakes, while being encouraged, are not being forced to mate. Does it really matter? It is not harming either of the snakes and the only real reason people don't like hybrids is either because they don't like how they look or they don't want it to become difficult to find pures. I understand the latter, preferring pures myself, but does it really matter to the snakes? I don't think they care is their offspring isn't 'pure'.


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## nagz (Jun 19, 2007)

just butting in for a tick, this is the biggest number of posts i have seen on a thread anywhere, ever. coolness.
carry on
cheers


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## S. Punja (Jun 19, 2007)

we have bred differnet dogs to make ones we fancy and that goes the same for cats so wats wrong with doing it with pythons


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## MMAnne (Jun 19, 2007)

S. Punja said:


> we have bred differnet dogs to make ones we fancy and that goes the same for cats so wats wrong with doing it with pythons


 
People seem to think it is wrong because they have different scientific names and are therefore different 'species'. That and most don't want it to become difficult to find pures.


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## da_donkey (Jun 19, 2007)

nagz said:


> just butting in for a tick, this is the biggest number of posts i have seen on a thread anywhere, ever. coolness.
> carry on
> cheers


 
This is nothing compared to my word "association" thread i started.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=46175


*2051* post and then Hix closed it 

donk


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## junglepython2 (Jun 19, 2007)

MMAnne said:


> And even though snakes 'are not of the same species' it is not the same as breeding a human and chimp, we all know that. As far as I am concered different species of snake are no different than two people of different colours having children. Yes, their genes are different and they have different scientific names, but what does this change? They are still one animal, have all the same organs and are still one shape. Yes, a Diamond is a different colour than a Jungle but how is that different to Africans having dark skin while the English have white?


 
OMG now I have heard it all, you can't be serious. 
So why isn't it the same as breeding a human and a chimp we are much more closely related to them then some snakes are to each other.


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## nagz (Jun 19, 2007)

i stand corrected, mouth agap, and totally amazed.
just shows u how long i've been around post thingies
cheers


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## MMAnne (Jun 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> OMG now I have heard it all, you can't be serious.
> So why isn't it the same as breeding a human and a chimp we are much more closely related to them then some snakes are to each other.


 
Think about it. What is the difference between a Diamond and a Jungle besides looks? Nothing.

Yes, I know chimps and humans are similar in many ways, but they have a totally different way of thinking and, dare I say it, while they are intelligent humans are at a totally different level. I don't know much about chimps but there may be some differences in atonomy, also.

Plus, I am not talking about chimps and humans! I am talking about snakes and snakes!


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## FrogLegs (Jun 19, 2007)

A Jungle x Coastal is a hybrid because they are both still snakes. a human and a monkey are not the same species. look it up....
now a black man and a white woman would make a hybrid or a chinese and a somoan.
these are hybrids....... Hitler tried to make the perfect race. PURE he said. blonde hair and blue eyes. lol


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## Pythoninfinite (Jun 19, 2007)

Think about it. What is the difference between a Diamond and a Jungle besides looks? Nothing.


Have to say Donk - with this thread you've excelled yourself lol... the above would have to be the silliest and most ignorant thing I've read recently...

Frankly I've never seen so many dills online in one thread for a long time... and Bryony - is she the sharpest tool in the shed or what???

Whew... I can see what we're all up against now... the future of the hobby is in dodgey hands indeed...

Catch ya soon Pat... and please don't do this again lol


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## MMAnne (Jun 19, 2007)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Think about it. What is the difference between a Diamond and a Jungle besides looks? Nothing.
> 
> 
> Have to say Donk - with this thread you've excelled yourself lol... the above would have to be the silliest and most ignorant thing I've read recently...


 
Call me silly and ignorant, perhaps what I said above is just that, but at the very least explain why. I don't like being called names without at least knowing the reason, that way at least something useful comes out of my embarrasment and I learn something new.

Is there a huge difference I am missing that makes diamonds and jungles so different? Are they both not snakes and is there something in their genes that makes it wrong for them to have offspring together? People from different nationalities have different genes, is this different in some way?

Two people have laughed at my words but haven't told me _why_. I now realise why I previously have not joined other debates on this site. Strangely enough I am not even a huge supporter of Hybrids - I prefer pures, but neither do I see what is so wrong with it.


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## grimbeny (Jun 19, 2007)

but MMAnne what is the point in mating a diamond and a jungle, u r creating an animal which will be totally different to anything found in nature. It will be worth alot less and if sold in acuratly may pollute the gene pool. Why should people cross animals from different sub species?


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## Frozenmouse (Jun 19, 2007)

massive differences in breeding ,size ,temperature/humidity requirements between a jungle and a diamond.


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## FrogLegs (Jun 19, 2007)

*chimps and humans cannot procreate*



junglepython2 said:


> So just because they can hybridise in artificial conditions it's ok? There is some evidence that chimps and humans could hybridise if that is correct does that make that ok also?


 
that is not true. they cannot get pregnant and infact i heard that is how HIV came about. Tribal africans having sex with a monkey. and if that is true then that shows you that different species that were not meant to breed together cant.


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## MMAnne (Jun 19, 2007)

Ok fair enough. But is it harmful to the offspring? They are still of the same animal, some humans have different needs than others. I still don't see a big enough difference that means they shouldn't mate.

And btw a Diamond and Jungle cross breeding is just an example. 

And Gimbeny, I honestly don't know the answers to your questions being someone who is not interested in cross breeding in the first place. I am just trying to see what makes it so wrong. The offspring being not worth as much as a pure is totally up to the breeder. If the snakes are fine and are not harmed during mating, does it matter?


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## grimbeny (Jun 19, 2007)

FrogLegs said:


> Tribal africans having sex with a monkey. and if that is true then that shows you that different species that were not meant to breed together cant.



Thats just a rumor, and a way of demonising another culture. It is beleived that the disease was contracted by humons eating chimpanzees.


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## FrogLegs (Jun 19, 2007)

hybrids taste better anyhow


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## FrogLegs (Jun 19, 2007)

the meat is more tender.


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## Hickson (Jun 19, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> and then Hix closed it



And I'm gonna close this one too, as the thread has run it's life.

Everyone has had a chance to express their opinion, both in print and in the poll. Everyone has different and often quite opposite opinions, and nobody is ready to change their minds.

Is one side right and the other wrong? Who knows? Maybe neither side is right or wrong, but it's only your perception of it that makes it that way.

What *IS* wrong, however, is a lot of so called 'facts', and other statements that have been made that are either incorrect, misrepresented, misunderstood, or just misinformed - particularly when it comes to genetics. 

(Incidentally - crossing a human and a chimp is not like crossing a coastal and a jungle, or a coastal and a bredli.; it's like crossing a Carpet and Taipan. Humans and chimps belong to different families.)

Everyones expressed their opinions, no-one is changing their minds. The thread has run it's course and is now closed.



HIx


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