# Zebra Carpets



## nintendont (Aug 20, 2013)

After seeing the zebra super form in S&T a while back I have developed a fascination with Zebras; but there doesn't seem to be much information available on them in Australia? I have seen a reference to a 15K price tag for a zebra jag but where is the info on just normal zebras? What subspecies are they exactly? Coastals, Jungles or a bit of a mix? Are they really even here yet? Or are they being kept on the downlow at the moment because they were smuggled here like the jags?
Just curious is all....


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## saximus (Aug 20, 2013)

They come from pure Jungles but like Jags, they will probably be crossed with everything Morelia eventually. It's an incomplete/co-dominant morph with the Super form being completely patternless (completely yellow in the case of a pure Jungle). They are definitely here already but that price tag you saw is more than what I've seen/heard.


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 20, 2013)

i suspect hatchys 3.5k-5k this season.


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## champagne (Aug 20, 2013)

A fair few people have them now give it 3 years and the standard pure form will be selling for under $1000 just like the jags. The current price is 6k and they go up from there depending on age and what other morphs are in them caramel, albino, granite, jag ect. I can't wait to see a super with more coastal in it, currently the only ones I've seen are pretty muddie. I think the super Sunglow super zebra will be crazy.... A solid fluro orange snake.


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 20, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> A fair few people have them now give it 3 years and the standard pure form will be selling for under $1000 just like the jags. The current price is 6k and they go up from there depending on age and what other morphs are in them caramel, albino, granite, jag ect. I can't wait to see a super with more coastal in it, currently the only ones I've seen are pretty muddie. I think the super Sunglow super zebra will be crazy.... A solid fluro orange snake.


i saw one for sale earlier on in the year for 5k and another one is for sale right now for 5k on another website. 
Cheers Liam


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 21, 2013)

The only prices I have heard of from breeders are 4-4.5K nothing as high as what people have mentioned in this thread so far. I'm still saving up for one.


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## Bryce (Aug 21, 2013)

I have also seen the add that had the animal for $15k. Absolutely ridiculous price tag if you ask me. Just like any co dom animal the prices drop and drop.


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## SamNabz (Aug 21, 2013)

I love it when these price debates come up... Put yourselves in their shoes. If you had something that was new to the scene and sought after (by some..), would you not put a price tag to match? I know I would.

Everyone expects low prices, until they are looking for the next big thing to sell at a so-called outrageous price themselves.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 21, 2013)

I certainly wouldn't expect low prices, sure people have a right to charge coz they may live on their prifits or are running the business that way but at what cost?


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## andynic07 (Aug 21, 2013)

I am not a big fan of the zebra but have not seen a picture of a super zebra. I personally would pay more money for a paradox than a zebra, they are really nice.


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## saximus (Aug 21, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I am not a big fan of the zebra but have not seen a picture of a super zebra. I personally would pay more money for a paradox than a zebra, they are really nice.



You should google it. It's pretty impressive


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## andynic07 (Aug 21, 2013)

saximus said:


> You should google it. It's pretty impressive



I just googled it and there are so many different images that look nothing alike. Some are nice and some don't appeal to me but I still prefer the paradox I think. Have you got any nice pictures that you could post?


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## Bryce (Aug 21, 2013)

They are an amazing morph to work with. So much potential with them. That price tag of that adult male is still way over priced. My zeb jag male was less than half that. 

Zebras have already dropped in price since they hit the public market which was not that long ago. Prices range from $3k-$5k depending on who you get them from.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 21, 2013)

I have had this pure jungle male ZEB paired up with the JAG pictured and a couple of pure jungles aswell, couple of the females are currently swollen up with follicles so all going well I should have eggs hatching before christmas.


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## saximus (Aug 21, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I just googled it and there are so many different images that look nothing alike. Some are nice and some don't appeal to me but I still prefer the paradox I think. Have you got any nice pictures that you could post?



These obviously aren't mine but they're my favourite


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## andynic07 (Aug 21, 2013)

They were some of the nice ones that I saw on google.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 21, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I am not a big fan of the zebra but have not seen a picture of a super zebra. I personally would pay more money for a paradox than a zebra, they are really nice.


at least the zebra and super zebra are proven, the carpet paradox isnt


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## andynic07 (Aug 21, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> at least the zebra and super zebra are proven, the carpet paradox isnt



That doesn't really matter to me as if I bought one it would be as a pet and not a breeder. I can understand why others would see it like that ( wanting a return on the investment) but that isn't me.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 21, 2013)

Im only after a super because theyre cute and solid coloured, Ive been after a carpet like this since I got my first one


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## GeckoJosh (Aug 21, 2013)

Has anyone bred Super Zebs here yet?


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## TrueBlue (Aug 21, 2013)

Pure jungle zebras, more rubbish. Zebras have been in oz for well over a decade, the morhp comes from IJ carpets.
Funny how in a small handfull of breedings they have become pure jungles. scam.


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## AmazingMorelia (Aug 21, 2013)

To be honest the chances of having a pure Zebra Jungle is very, very slim. Prior to them been smuggled into Australia they have been crossed in Europe and America with everything and anything. Unless you personally smuggled the animals into Oz and know their exact lineage from the breeder OS then its not honest to label them pure jungle.


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## saximus (Aug 21, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Pure jungle zebras, more rubbish. Zebras have been in oz for well over a decade, the morhp comes from IJ carpets.
> Funny how in a small handfull of breedings they have become pure jungles. scam.



The Complete Carpet Python describes it as a Jungle morph. Or is that just a lie?


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## junglepython2 (Aug 21, 2013)

Fairly confident they originated in pure jungles, it was the granites that come from IJ's. In saying that I would agree with AmazingMorelia in that I wouldn't trust any of the ones in Aus to be pure. Much like I wouldn't believe anyone selling a pure coastal Jag.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 22, 2013)

It depends on what and who you belive.
Jags were originally supposed to come from a coastal x coastal mating. But it is now undrestood that IJ carpet was the source of the jag gene, not a coastal.

Same sort of story seems to be emerging with the zebras, that the first zebra came from a jungle x IJ carpet.???

Oh to be a fly on the wall.!!!!!!!!!!


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## BARRAMUNDI (Aug 22, 2013)

The first Zebs originated in pure jungle to jungle pairing, plenty of people have ensured they have been kept pure and of course some people have and will cross them too, its easy to identify crossed ZEBS. Guess I am one of the lucky ones with pure ZEBS and crossed ZEBS...........


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## TrueBlue (Aug 22, 2013)

barramundi, You dont know that for sure, the first supposed zebra changed hands before it was bred, which adds even more dought.
The animal you posted in this thread dosnt look to be pure jungle to me, there is just something not quite right about its head.??????


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## aspidito (Aug 22, 2013)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> The first Zebs originated in pure jungle to jungle pairing, plenty of people have ensured they have been kept pure and of course some people have and will cross them too, its easy to identify crossed ZEBS. Guess I am one of the lucky ones with pure ZEBS and crossed ZEBS...........



If you are convinced there is something wrong with its head send it to me I will take good care of him.............its a stunner


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## champagne (Aug 22, 2013)

Even if they originally were from ij x jungle there are lines that have been bred back to only pure jungles, the fact jungles and IJ's can't be split by DNA, really questions the validity of a pure or not argument and yes these jungle cross back lines are available in Australia.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 23, 2013)

They cant be split by DNA because the testing is not accurate enough yet thats all.
You could breed IJ carpet x jungle with pure jungles over countless generations and they would never be pure, simple as that, they would always be worthless mongrels.


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> They cant be split by DNA because the testing is not accurate enough yet thats all.
> You could breed IJ carpet x jungle with pure jungles over countless generations and they would never be pure, simple as that, they would always be worthless mongrels.


You are right a 7th generation cross back jungle zebra would only 99.21% jungle and a huge 0.79% ij... All snakes in the hobby hold no conservation value, therefor they are all mongrels in a scientific bases... If they don't have a DNA test that is accurate enough yet how can you be so sure a jungle and ij aren't genetically the snake snake?


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## TrueBlue (Aug 23, 2013)

Simple, they are different snakes in many different ways not just thru DNA.
Alot of pure snakes in captivity hold conservational value to different levels. A mongrel never will.


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## phatty (Aug 23, 2013)

my question is will the zebra jag sibs be sold as Zebra jungle if they show the zebra gene


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 23, 2013)

I think it's interesting that the morphs which appear overseas periodically, almost without exception, appear on the scene here within a couple of years, and often in the same collections. There must be a standard mechanism for getting these things into the country, which clicks in when negotiations on price and availablity are completed. I guess the potential for swapping high-end Oz species such as rare geckos is there as well. It's all a bit depressing really - another thread on this site is providing excellent discussion on the need for a national body to assist keepers with the obvious failures of the various state legislations to achieve effective conservation outcomes, and on the other hand there are these quite open discussions about the desirability of the latest morphs smuggled in from overseas... Designer snakes are just commodities which bring those who have them early in their development huge profits, nothing more.

Jamie


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 23, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Pure jungle zebras, more rubbish. Zebras have been in oz for well over a decade, the morhp comes from IJ carpets.
> Funny how in a small handfull of breedings they have become pure jungles. scam.


Wheres your proof, zebra morph is a jungle morph not an IJ morph


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Aug 23, 2013)

i believe there are pure jungles here and crosses.


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

phatty said:


> my question is will the zebra jag sibs be sold as Zebra jungle if they show the zebra gene


Its a co Dom morph so if they show the zebra gene they are zebras


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## phatty (Aug 23, 2013)

I know that but they shouldn't be called zebra jungles but the will be as they will be mixed breed 



Soon we will have names like zebra NT jungle costal green tree olive Jag


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Simple, they are different snakes in many different ways not just thru DNA.
> Alot of pure snakes in captivity hold conservational value to different levels. A mongrel never will.


What conservational value does any Morelia sub that is in private hobby collections hold? There are very few 100% pure Morelia subs available in the hobby.



phatty said:


> I know that but they shouldn't be called zebra jungles but the will be as they will be mixed breed
> 
> 
> 
> Soon we will have names like zebra NT jungle costal green tree olive Jag


If they are a zebra jungle they will be call zebra jungles, if they are a coastal cross they will be called a coastal zebra, if its a caramel or albino zebra they will be called that. If it is a coastal cross jungle zeb that doesn't carry the zebra gene it will be called a jungle coastal cross same way jag sibs are.... I think all the keyboard warriors need to get a new argument as this was all spoken about when jags went public. If you want a pure locality animal and it means that much to you, you will go to a breeder that breeds known pure animals. If you want a carpet python that looks like a jungle you will buy an animal that looks the way you want and if you want a morph you will go to a breeder that breeds morphs. Just as much effort is put in finding morphs with known genes ect as a pure locality animal to make sure you are getting what you want and not being ripped off. They are here to stay so build a bridge....


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## Jackrabbit (Aug 23, 2013)

Why did i think this was about Zebra skinned carpets? duh!


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## AmazingMorelia (Aug 23, 2013)

Not to get into the rights and wrongs of cross breeding, but it needs to be stated that there are more than just colour and pattern differences that seperate the subspecies of carpets, but there are also differences on a physical basis. Keep a Darwin as you would keep a MD or Bredli and you will open yourself up to RIs and shedding problems. Keep a Diamond the same as you keep a Coastal or a Darwin and you will kill them. Through many, many thousands of years of evolution have given us what we have today, and for so called herp people to say differences are just polygenic colour and pattern is concerning.


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## GeckoJosh (Aug 23, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> Has anyone bred Super Zebs here in Australia yet?



Surely someone knows?


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## TrueBlue (Aug 23, 2013)

serpentaria, I dont have proof, same as you dont have proof that they are. IJs seem to have a habit of popping out the odd unusual animal so it certainly seems plauseable. Ive heard it from too many people too many times not to have considerable dought that they are pure jungles.

bts morphs, there are alot of pure lines of morelia in the hobby, and some of them as well as many other species of snake held in collections hold conservational value on a number of different levels.


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> Not to get into the rights and wrongs of cross breeding, but it needs to be stated that there are more than just colour and pattern differences that seperate the subspecies of carpets, but there are also differences on a physical basis. Keep a Darwin as you would keep a MD or Bredli and you will open yourself up to RIs and shedding problems. Keep a Diamond the same as you keep a Coastal or a Darwin and you will kill them. Through many, many thousands of years of evolution have given us what we have today, and for so called herp people to say differences are just polygenic colour and pattern is concerning.


 That is a very old way of thinking that comes from the days when most snakes were wild caught not captive bred.
I have kept all my snakes at the same temps and humidity including gtp's for over a decade with no problems. Just because snakes in the northern parts of Australia have adapted to handle high temps doesn't mean they need them to survive. Also snakes from the north hide during most of the day in cooler places only come out once it cools down. All pythons function at the same optimal temperature. There are snakes in the North America that live in places that get 6ft of snow each year, does this mean you need to put snow in their enclosure for them to survive?


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> serpentaria, I dont have proof, same as you dont have proof that they are. IJs seem to have a habit of popping out the odd unusual animal so it certainly seems plauseable. Ive heard it from too many people too many times not to have considerable dought that they are pure jungles.
> 
> bts morphs, there are alot of pure lines of morelia in the hobby, and some of them as well as many other species of snake held in collections hold conservational value on a number of different levels.



There are very few animals that hold conservational value and none would be a Morelia sub... You can think what ever you want but they are "pets" that if a wild population disappear, they wont be able to be used to repopulate.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 23, 2013)

I think that you have missed the point he was trying to make. That they are different in a number of different ways, behaviour, climatic conditions, even morphologically.


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## AmazingMorelia (Aug 23, 2013)

You can try to talk around it any way you like, it doesnt change the facts. This isnt a take on cross breeding, its pointing out real facts about the evolution of morelia subspecies. The line that all carpets are exactly the same other than pattern and colour is false. You cannot argue that keeping a Diamond at the same temps as Darwin is bad for a Diamonds health. It is. Dont try and down play the real differences on a genetic level between the subspecies to try and vindicate why you need to cross a Bredli with a jungle.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 23, 2013)

btsmorhps.

Some animals (morelia sp) were taken off an australian island a number of years ago for conservation reasons. And there are many other speceis that can, have, and will hold conservational value.
You dont seem to know much about whats being kept in the country at all do you.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 23, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> You can try to talk around it any way you like, it doesnt change the facts. This isnt a take on cross breeding, its pointing out real facts about the evolution of morelia subspecies. The line that all carpets are exactly the same other than pattern and colour is false. You cannot argue that keeping a Diamond at the same temps as Darwin is bad for a Diamonds health. It is. Dont try and down play the real differences on a genetic level between the subspecies to try and vindicate why you need to cross a Bredli with a jungle.



Some of the stuff being written is astounding.According to some logic I can keep say a darwin in an outside aviary in the southern states will no ill effects.They may have adapted to handle high temps but in no way have they adapted to handle low temps.


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> You can try to talk around it any way you like, it doesnt change the facts. This isnt a take on cross breeding, its pointing out real facts about the evolution of morelia subspecies. The line that all carpets are exactly the same other than pattern and colour is false. You cannot argue that keeping a Diamond at the same temps as Darwin is bad for a Diamonds health. It is. Dont try and down play the real differences on a genetic level between the subspecies to try and vindicate why you need to cross a Bredli with a jungle.


 no one should cross a Bredli with any of the subs because that would be a species cross. Yes the Morelia subs have more difference then just colour and pattern but once crossed back after the 4th generation you can not tell if its pure or not as they look the same. The fact that these snakes will never be used or released in the wild what is the problem? And like I said all Morelia's can be kept at the same temps and humidity even Gtp don't need high temps and high humidity. How are diamond crosses surviving if this isn't possible?


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Some of the stuff being written is astounding.According to some logic I can keep say a darwin in an outside aviary in the southern states will no ill effects.They may have adapted to handle high temps but in no way have they adapted to handle low temps.


 who said that? I said they can both be kept in the middle temp range because they both have the same optimal body temp... I didn't say a Darwin can be kept at a low temp that a diamond python has adapted to handle for short periods of time. But I do have friends that keep diamond pythons outside in Brisbane all year round no problems tho


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> btsmorhps.
> 
> Some animals (morelia sp) were taken off an australian island a number of years ago for conservation reasons. And there are many other speceis that can, have, and will hold conservational value.
> You dont seem to know much about whats being kept in the country at all do you.


And what is happening with these animals? Is there a scientific based breeding program to increase numbers? Are they being bred selectively only for health not colour or pattern? I highly doubt they will ever release any back into the wild...


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 23, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> That is a very old way of thinking that comes from the days when most snakes were wild caught not captive bred.
> I have kept all my snakes at the same temps and humidity including gtp's for over a decade with no problems. Just because snakes in the northern parts of Australia have adapted to handle high temps doesn't mean they need them to survive. Also snakes from the north hide during most of the day in cooler places only come out once it cools down. All pythons function at the same optimal temperature. There are snakes in the North America that live in places that get 6ft of snow each year, does this mean you need to put snow in their enclosure for them to survive?



Gee, there are a few fundamental flaws in some of those statements... Surviving is very different to thriving. GTPs maybe aren't as fussy as some seem to think, but they are a niche animal with fundamentally different requirements to most other pythons. Try raising GTP babies as you would a clutch of Carpets, and many of them will die with adhered and unremoveable first sheds. You seem to have a very simplistic view of the evolutionary differences between these forms.

Jamie


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gee, there are a few fundamental flaws in some of those statements... Surviving is very different to thriving. GTPs maybe aren't as fussy as some seem to think, but they are a niche animal with fundamentally different requirements to most other pythons. Try raising GTP babies as you would a clutch of Carpets, and many of them will die with adhered and unremoveable first sheds. You seem to have a very simplistic view of the evolutionary differences between these forms.
> 
> Jamie


I do raise GTP clutches exactly like coastals with no problems... If you have low temps with high humidity you get problems, if you have high temps with low humidity you have problems. Also the food has to be well hydrated, I believe this plays a lot in gtp's and all carpets for that matter. Yes at the start there were a few fatalities but I haven't had a Gtp die, prolapse or stuck shed in years. And can you please explain thriving because I have a Darwin female that is 12years old kept at the same temps as all the others and still producing large viable clutches every year, just want to make sure I've got all my fundamental right.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 23, 2013)

hahaha, no offence intended but some people just have no idea and never will. You are the perfect person who is keeping animals for the wrong reason and will never have a real understanding of what they even are.


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## mungus (Aug 23, 2013)

You get what u pay for...............
PURE jungle zebs with high yelow and black markings will still cost u top dollar.............simple !
These put togher will produce the high quality yellow super form, which imo is a beautiful snake.
The problem out there is people dont have the patience to breed Zeb jungles to high yellow jungles over and over again to achieve a highly coloured priced zeb.
Their to much in a hurry the put a muddy zeb to muddy zeb to produce a substandard coloured super form.
This might be due to the $$ gain that they would miss out on waiting.
Yes there will be a few about in a couple of years, but quaility will still cost $$.........especially the pure form.
The crosses will be exciting as well, zebs albino's, granites etc............exciting times imo.
Cant wait


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 23, 2013)

"At the start there were few fatalities..." so what did you have to change to prevent those fatalities? Perhaps note that GTP babies are a bit different to other Morelia?

I agree with you about Darwins, in enclosures, and the other Carpet morphs. But if you go to each extreme - Diamonds to GTPs, if you don't pay some heed to the environmental niches in which they live, they will not thrive.

But having said all that, you're DEFINITELY the man to see if anyone has husbandry problems !

Jamie


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

Yes the was a few fatalities because every book you read says they need high humidity then other carpets which isn't true so once I stopped with the high humidity no more problems and all my carpets thrive at a high temp of 27. You can make the smart remarks about my husbandry technics but that's why everyone does exactly what the book says instead of thinking why you are providing that environment and what the snake actually needs.


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## mungus (Aug 23, 2013)

Regarding Husbandry.........I think some members should remember they live in glass houses..........


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## champagne (Aug 23, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> hahaha, no offence intended but some people just have no idea and never will. You are the perfect person who is keeping animals for the wrong reason and will never have a real understanding of what they even are.


I actually don't keep or breed crosses... The only morph I keep is a pair of pure albino darwins, apart from that 90% of my collection is wires never to be release animals or wild caught/ 100% known localities. I don't breed for stripes or hypos ect I only breed for health, size ect. I'm not into morphs but have a lot of friends with large morph collections that I can still look at an appreciate their beauty. I would love to be able to bank large collections of wild caught animals in a scientific breeding program before they are lost but the way the government protects them is by shutting the gate until they are gone for ever. Yes I do believe that all the east coast sub species are just slight variations of the same snake but all the locality variations should still be banked.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 23, 2013)

Gee, I keep my hatchy GTPs in highly humid tubs for the first 2-3 sheds, and never had a problem... I've spent around 30 years working in the environments that these various species live in, as a collector and museum employee, so I've had a bit of time to think about the whys and wherefores of the observations I've made. I absolutely agree that for the most part the larger pythons live very well under very similar conditions, but to say that there is no variation in the needs of ANY species is just plain silly.

Jamie


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## Stuart (Aug 23, 2013)

Thread reopened. Please keep it civilized.


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## Newhere (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't even like the look of the zebras, its funny how people try to change nature and make all these different varietys and crosses just for money really. We have some of the most beautiful pythons here in australia we should just admire them for what they are. Its just like an albino animal, its a dud in the eyes of nature but to humans its desirable because its rare. I just don't get why someone would pay thousands of dollars for some of these crosses when they don't even look good.


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## MesseNoire (Aug 25, 2013)

Newhere said:


> I don't even like the look of the zebras, its funny how people try to change nature and make all these different varietys and crosses just for money really. We have some of the most beautiful pythons here in australia we should just admire them for what they are. Its just like an albino animal, its a dud in the eyes of nature but to humans its desirable because its rare. I just don't get why someone would pay thousands of dollars for some of these crosses when they don't even look good.



They don't look good in your opinion. Remember that. Your opinion.


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## Newhere (Aug 25, 2013)

Lol yeah mate my opinion, does it look like I was speaking for everyone? I swear I said "I don't even like the look of the zebras"


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## champagne (Aug 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gee, I keep my hatchy GTPs in highly humid tubs for the first 2-3 sheds, and never had a problem... I've spent around 30 years working in the environments that these various species live in, as a collector and museum employee, so I've had a bit of time to think about the whys and wherefores of the observations I've made. I absolutely agree that for the most part the larger pythons live very well under very similar conditions, but to say that there is no variation in the needs of ANY species is just plain silly.
> 
> Jamie


I maybe didn't make myself clear enough. I was mostly speaking on Morelia requirement being the same in captivity not all species. But there is more then one way to skin a cat and my husbandry works for me, just like yours works for you. I think more people to ask why they are doing something not just go off the first book.


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## DarkApe (Aug 25, 2013)

this thread is ubber funny to read keep it going lol


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 25, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> serpentaria, I dont have proof, same as you dont have proof that they are. IJs seem to have a habit of popping out the odd unusual animal so it certainly seems plauseable. Ive heard it from too many people too many times not to have considerable dought that they are pure jungles.


its already been proven as to where the zebra gene came from, pure jungles, by reputable sources, even if it was overseas breeders. If you don't already know that then its not my problem. I've already researched my information because I need to if I am going to purchase one of these animals and add them to my collection eventually. So far the only morphs that have originated from IJs are Axanthic, independant of the same Coastal gene (which has not yet been proven out independantly as far as I know) and also the Granite morph, which has been proven that it originated from pure IJs. You need to research your info more.


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## zulu (Aug 25, 2013)

The way i see it is when i see pure this or that MAYDAY MAYDAY.
I gave up on jags when years back the original founder pair were displayed ,they didnt look like two coastals ,which is why the genes are stuffed.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Aug 25, 2013)

zulu this thread is about zebra carpets, not jaguar carpets, both are two completely different morphs


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## zulu (Aug 25, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> zulu this thread is about zebra carpets, not jaguar carpets, both are two completely different morphs



All the same old crap ,the jags were supposed to come from pure coastals and the zebs from pure jungles, i dont believe it ,those that want to can and good luck to them.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 25, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> I maybe didn't make myself clear enough. I was mostly speaking on Morelia requirement being the same in captivity not all species. But there is more then one way to skin a cat and my husbandry works for me, just like yours works for you. I think more people to ask why they are doing something not just go off the first book.



I've been keeping snakes since about 1958, when books on keeping Australian snakes were non-existent. Much of what I do now comes from basic trial & error matey, with the addition of very useful information gleaned from face-to-face discussions with the likes of Dave & Tracey Barker & Rico Walder over the last 15 years. It becomes perfectly clear why these people do what they do when you speak with people like this, and visit the habitats of the creatures concerned.

Jamie


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## champagne (Aug 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I've been keeping snakes since about 1958, when books on keeping Australian snakes were non-existent. Much of what I do now comes from basic trial & error matey, with the addition of very useful information gleaned from face-to-face discussions with the likes of Dave & Tracey Barker & Rico Walder over the last 15 years. It becomes perfectly clear why these people do what they do when you speak with people like this, and visit the habitats of the creatures concerned.
> 
> Jamie


It was after I visited dave breeding facility and have a very good chat with him, that I came home and started keeping the pythons the way I do, with great success.... Just because you having been keeping longer then me or can try and drop a few names doesn't mean my methods are wrong or don't work because I'm not the only person that keeps all their Morelia's at the same temps and humidity with great success.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 25, 2013)

serpentaria, Sorry but maybe you should do more reasearch, jags were supposed to be from 2 pure coastals but it in reality it came out that one if not both were IJ carpets, yes another morph of IJs. If you think that the zebra shown in this thread is pure, then have another good look at it.
I agree 100 % with the zulu warrior, let anyone belive they are pure if they want, lifes like that lol.


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## Kurama (Aug 26, 2013)

Is it true that some super zebra's suffer from spinal kinks?


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 26, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> It was after I visited dave breeding facility and have a very good chat with him, that I came home and started keeping the pythons the way I do, with great success.... Just because you having been keeping longer then me or can try and drop a few names doesn't mean my methods are wrong or don't work because I'm not the only person that keeps all their Morelia's at the same temps and humidity with great success.



Well, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough... I don't have many species now, but certainly you can keep the majority of Morelia species/subspecies, even juvies, in the same way for all of them. All of the mainland Carpets, spilota ssp and bredli, Scrubs, even Water Pythons and Olives are perfectly happy within the same husbandry parameters - I have no argument about that. With the exception of two species - GTPs and Diamonds. These are unique niche animals, and while they will perhaps survive for a few years without the keeper acknowledging that they have a couple of extra requirements to ensure their long-term good health, their health may suffer. Heaps of Diamond keepers have experienced the physical collapse & death of their apparently healthy Diamonds after 6 or 7 years, because they keep them too warm. There is a reason that GTPs have not spread down to Victoria, or Diamonds have not covered the entire east coast... it may just have something to do with the environmental requirements of each of those species and their potential for long-term survival outside their range. 

But if whatever you do works for you matey, go for it !

Jamie


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## FAY (Aug 26, 2013)

Agree Jamie.
Diamonds can do great for about 7 years unless you give them the right conditions. One of the least hardiest pythons.


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## gozz (Aug 26, 2013)

Well btsmorphs I wouldn't keep tigers on heat in Queensand as an example to breed olives you need to get them very cold at night. There are many variants to consider to be a great keeper we learn ourselves and from others, I feed and breed at the same time for some species etc


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## Bushfire (Aug 26, 2013)

Back to the topic it's such a shame that smugglers get rewarded for their efforts, both $$ and held up as top breeders. To me jags and now zebras are a stain on the hobby in Australia which fuels further mistrust from the authorities. Somewhere along the way we accepted this behaviour as long as pretty / different forms come available.


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## onimocnhoj (Aug 28, 2013)

It seems that more people are slowly beginning to appreciate the dedication a handful of breeders have committed decades to. Keeping locality stock 100% pure and line breeding for selective traits within a sub species. A large portion of fancy patterns and morphs can be attained through pure locality stock. I would think the majority, the only constraint is merely time and achieving some of these goals is certainly the long way round. I myself see it as the scenic route.

When jags smashed their way into the hobby, breeders had choices to make. Some got excited and eagerly dived in, some stayed out and other just got their feet wet. In any case I personally saw jags as a 'short-cut' to fancy looking carpets. So did many others when they were first spoken of. I found it amusing to watch some individuals mock and scrutinise those who dove into jags only to dive into them themselves. Will the time come again when people are embarrassed to say they own them?

I sincerely doubt many breeders today could draw an extensively accurate 'family tree' of the animals within their collection. Not just who they purchased animals from, but where the animals originated. How many breeders can be completely confident of their own collections? How far back can they go until it gets blurry? Jags will just further the confusion in time, especially with their siblings. 

A few people preach that captive animals hold no conservational value. Perhaps not now, but what will tomorrow bring? Who knows what Homo sapiens will stuff up next? The bottom line is some keepers maintain a purebred collection because they enjoy the natural history attached to their animals. Others like fancy snakes in their cages. They are both challenging, but one is cloaked in mystery, pirates and porkpies..

Just ask yourself..

If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose? 

Your answer would sum up your true opinion on jag/RPM's..


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## Lawra (Aug 28, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> Just ask yourself..
> 
> If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose?
> 
> Your answer would sum up your true opinion on jag/RPM's..



I never thought I had an opinion on this topic, but this got me thinking. 

Really, I thank you. Thank you 

I have to admit I'd choose a pedigree jungle.


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## yellowbeard (Aug 29, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose?


 
Are you saying that a python that has been line breed for reduced pattern (e.g. pin stripe mac, from head to tail) is mated to a wild type (e.g. blonde mac, no striping) 50% of the offspring will show the pin stripe from head to tail?

As with the Zebra and Jag gene you will have always have 50% of the offspring showing these phenotypes when breed to wild types.


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## AmazingMorelia (Aug 29, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> It seems that more people are slowly beginning to appreciate the dedication a handful of breeders have committed decades to. Keeping locality stock 100% pure and line breeding for selective traits within a sub species. A large portion of fancy patterns and morphs can be attained through pure locality stock. I would think the majority, the only constraint is merely time and achieving some of these goals is certainly the long way round. I myself see it as the scenic route.
> 
> When jags smashed their way into the hobby, breeders had choices to make. Some got excited and eagerly dived in, some stayed out and other just got their feet wet. In any case I personally saw jags as a 'short-cut' to fancy looking carpets. So did many others when they were first spoken of. I found it amusing to watch some individuals mock and scrutinise those who dove into jags only to dive into them themselves. Will the time come again when people are embarrassed to say they own them?
> 
> ...



Very well written and actually covers alot of what I have been thinking. I went back and read alot of older posts on this forum and I did laugh when reading before the arrival of the Jag into mainstream, some well known breeders commenting in threads how people cross breeding sub species was getting out of control and how bad it was, and now seeing this same person now breading Jags to anything and everything and crossing subspecies at will just shows that a few people go where the money is at the time.
In time the value will be in quality pure lineage animals. A hot pure Palmerston jungle will be worth more than a jungle jag. 
I was looking at maybe getting a pair of hot Julattens from a breeder who keeps both pure and mixed and when I spoke to some friends about doing it they straight away said "he cross breeds so the chances are they wont be pure Julattens, and if you do get them dont tell people who you bought them off". Now there is no proof this breeders Julattens wernt pure, but his name and reputation is forever tainted by the fact he cross breeds as well.


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## onimocnhoj (Aug 29, 2013)

Yellowbeard,

No, that is not what I am saying.

The example I used was simply a hyperthetical scenario. I used it to raise a question. If the same results of aesthetically appealing pythons could be achieved (recessive, co-dominant or whatever) with purebred stock, would many keepers lose interest in jags?

Any reason you brought up macs..?


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## TrueBlue (Aug 29, 2013)

onimocnhoj,
Wow, thats the nicess way that i have ever heard anyone say,( no offence to anyone here), " stop keeping and breeding jags and mongrels ya stupid tossers " .
Well done, i wish that i could restrain myself as much lol.


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## champagne (Aug 29, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> A hot pure Palmerston jungle will be worth more than a jungle jag.


some high yellow rp pure lines already cost more then jungle jags and there is a waiting lists


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## yellowbeard (Aug 30, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> Yellowbeard,
> 
> No, that is not what I am saying.
> 
> ...



G'day onimocnhoj,

I would have to agree that if you could get the same results within a species (like a pattern reduction gene with the same mode of inheritance as the Jag gene) many keepers would loose interest in the jag gene as you would not have to create hybrids and also not have the associated medical problems that may/can come with it.

Unfortunately it seems that this will never happen, these "new" morphs (Albino, Zebra, Jag, Xanthic, Axanthic etc.) with a proven mode of inheritance mostly seem to originate in different species or sub species.

Genetically it is possible that all these morph genes are carried with in all species of python, however here in Australia we are extremely limited due to the low amount of breeding that is done which reduces the chance of finding them.

I was using macs as an example, but I would also be curious as what would happen


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## champagne (Aug 30, 2013)

with the amount of people that breed coastals, they already come in most colour morphs and have several polymorphic pattern morphs, so it is only a matter of time before a pattern modifier gene pops up that is a simple mode of inheritance. The problem I see is that even if a morph comes out that rp just like the jag gene no one will believe its pure, just like the pure albino coastal.


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## Umbral (Aug 30, 2013)

Out of curiosity I wonder what it would cost to get a snake DNA tested to prove its pure.


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## Wing_Nut (Aug 30, 2013)

It's not the test that would be the issue, it is having and agreeing on the sample to compare it to.


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## onimocnhoj (Aug 30, 2013)

The line of thought that all carpets are identical due to the results of DNA testing is comparable to when man thought the Earth was flat. Remember that these latin names for subspecies are always changing as we know more, but most importantly these are simply names given by humans for humans. Does anyone really think that all childrens pythons got excited the day they went from Liasis to Antaresia?? All of our animals are in their geographical locations for a reason. Reasons we will probably never fully comprehend. 

There wouldn't be many breeders who would have line bred siblings enough times to say much about the inheritable traits present in their collections let alone the mode of inheritance. We have been spoilt for choice with obtaining animals from a variety of sources and very few would have kept the gene pool small enough to isolate much of their knowings. I suppose if it's the end result that people are after, does the mode matter that much?

If patternless carpets become available from purebred coastals, would it matter if they were simply progeny of a polygenic production? If the funky RP high yellow jungles are the same, wouldn't you want to buy a pair of those or does everything have to be immediately compatibility with another morph to be desired by the masses?

I truly believe many of the future morphs will be homozygous recessive and co-dominant. I breed Striped Tablelands Carpets and Striped Macs among others.. I have outcrossed and inbred with the mode of inheritance pointing at co-dominance with a super form. The great thing is the super forms don't die lol! We simply don't have enough time clocked up to be certain the genetics isn't here in purebred projects. 

There's only one way to find out..

Regarding the authenticity of available progeny. It will always come down to reputation of the breeder and the level of confidence one requires to be satisfied with their purchase. There would be very few, well known breeders who could be trusted selling accurately described stock if they were keeping jags as well as thoroughbreds. I would love to say everyone breeding/selling snakes is honest, but this fallacy is far from truth. 

This completely applies to any breeder in the herp world, but I believe many with elaborate jag projects/collections have created a small cloud of doubt hovering over them.


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## andynic07 (Aug 30, 2013)

I think a lot of people find the traits like Jag desirable because they can easily breed that animal with another and get roughly 50% with the desired look and this can be passed on to other colours and patterns fairly easily whereas line breeding can take many generations and thought to produce the desired outcome. I am not saying all jag breeders are like this and I know some put a lot of time and thought into their projects but it does make these animals more desirable because anyone can have a go.


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## onimocnhoj (Aug 30, 2013)

Everyone can have a go


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## andynic07 (Aug 30, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> Everyone can have a go


I think a lot are just having a go at the moment as well.


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## Colin (Aug 30, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose?
> 
> Your answer would sum up your true opinion on jag/RPM's..



maybe my answer would have been very different last year, last month or last week... 
but my choice this week.. is the pure palmerston jungle


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## mungus (Aug 31, 2013)

Colin said:


> maybe my answer would have been very different last year, last month or last week...
> but my choice this week.. is the pure palmerston jungle



It has definitely changed mate..........


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## AmazingMorelia (Aug 31, 2013)

If the Zebra was originally produced here in Australia and was pure Jungle I would be all over them like a fat kid on a ice cream. I like the lookof them (well the high yellow ones anyway). 
Same as a Jag. If it was produced in Australia and was pure Coastal, and most importantly they didnt have neuro issues I would have them. And really even if it came through questionable means but was neuro free I would proberbly play with them.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2013)

Patternles carpets from pure bred coastals may not be that far away. In another couple of generations i recon that I wont be too far away at all from producing such an animal, maybe even by then.
Probally the best thing about these carpets will be that none of these snakes grand parents or great grand parents have been overseas for a permanent holiday and had some of their young sent back home.


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## andynic07 (Sep 1, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Patternles carpets from pure bred coastals may not be that far away. In another couple of generations i recon that I wont be too far away at all from producing such an animal, maybe even by then.
> Probally the best thing about these carpets will be that none of these snakes grand parents or great grand parents have been overseas for a permanent holiday and had some of their young sent back home.



That would be good to see and would be something that I would pay big money for.


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## onimocnhoj (Sep 1, 2013)

Haha, international snakes of mystery working on their frequent flyer points..

With such obvious neurological problems guaranteed within a proportion of every jag clutch, there surely is a serious breach of ethics involved. To willing accept that a number of animals produced will most certainly be doomed to euthanasia or an undesired, unhealthy life must drift towards animal cruelty. To intentionally reproduce animals that continually emerge from eggs to end up in freezers, just to have a handful visually appealing pythons is a choice driven purely by greed. How can this be okay? 

If dogs could be bred to look like hyenas (or something desirable), but they had to be hand fed, couldn't run in a straight line and had a number of pups euthanised every litter - would this be acceptable? Would it be worth it?

Maybe I'm just old school or stuck under my rock..

I am sure if animal activist groups knew more about the upsetting life cycle jags endure (or don't) to please a an owner with superficial desires, you'd be seeing them at the next reptile Expo with pitchforks and flaming torches lol..


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## Wing_Nut (Sep 1, 2013)

Many of us raise animals that are destined to end in a freezer. Where do we draw the line? What makes it ok for one animal and not for another? With all due respect, what happens to the line bred or pure animals that don't look right, or are simply not up to scratch? Or the animals that are dumped on the market and are sold unscrupulously to inexperienced or novice keepers who end up dead in a year? What makes a pure breeder more ethical that a jag breeder? Lumping them all into one basket it unfair and counterproductive. Almost every arguement could be equally applied to 'purists' who breed year in year out without care or cause for what happens with the thousands of surplus animals. It's a very fine line to play an ethical card, or argue about the morality of a situation. 

Human nature is a disgusting thing, and I'm sure if the truth about animal activists came out most of the "normal" people amongst us would be disgusted as well. There are simply far too many people with grand ideas about moral standards and ethics and almost none with any clue how to move forward.

Having said that, both sides of the fence all make valid points. The reality is that all streams of reptile keeping will remain and forcing one or the other underground or into hiding will bode poorly for the whole community. 

Wing_Nut


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2013)

wingnut, sorry but disagree with most of what you have said. " many of us raise animals that are destined to end in a freezer", hell not sure who you deal with but thats absurd. Ive never had to put anything ive bred in the freezer. The odd deformed animal may get put down in its best interest after hatching, but that happens with every animal on the planet. Other than that all the young i breed find homes. They are pure animals so all of them hold value.

If some humans set up a breeding program for say, epilepsy which is a neurological disorder, would that be ethical??. Hell you would probally get arrested. But its fine to do much the same thing with snakes.?? I think not.!!!


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## Wing_Nut (Sep 1, 2013)

I wasn't referring to just reptiles. Rats, quail, chickens, pigeons, rabbits, sheep, cows.... All our lives are full of animals that are bred for the sole purpose of dying, for whatever reason, most of which end up in a freezer.

With all due respect Trueblue, your animals are of the highest quality, and you and your animals represent the tip of the iceberg, for every breeder like yourself who has top quality animals, there will be many who have not reached that level. In general, most animals are no where near as valuable as some that you have shown, and will in truth have far less value.

Wing_Nut


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## Shotta (Sep 1, 2013)

from what i gleaned from os breeders zebra morph came from pure jungle and this

!Paul Harris of UK Pythons,who was based in Germany at the time, produced the first Zebra morph from a Jungle x Jungle pairing
re Zebra's
as far as i know they don't have a high success of a hatch rate,a lot of them die in the egg

also most of the ones that do hatch,have some kinking issues


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2013)

Pure line animals that as you say are "not up to scratch", still all get sold because they ARE up to scratch, they are pure blood animals.


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## Wing_Nut (Sep 1, 2013)

Again, with respect, there are programs and research institutions who do in fact breed animals with epilepsy and other disorders, it's certainly not unheard of and no one gets arrested. My point is, who sets the moral compass, who makes any of us the ethical referee. 

Wing_Nut


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## onimocnhoj (Sep 1, 2013)

I agree with many of your points Wing_Nut, as we all indulge in some level of cruelty the instant we caged animals for our personal pleasure. It continues to be questioned throughout the captive animal's life. It is another argument when it comes to the deaths irresponsible/incompetent keepers are accountable for annually with it's own list of ethical questions.. 

When I look at the hundreds of pythons I have personally bred/raised over the years I would have euthanised less than ten individuals due to birth deformities or a questionably 'happy life'. 

If more people with genuine experiences could share more information to the public (particularly to the inexperienced looking to buy) many heartaches and misinformed decisions could be avoided.


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## Wing_Nut (Sep 1, 2013)

Trueblue, to illustrate my point, if the Jags you are referring to that end up in the freezer where humanely culled and used for a purpose, say feeding other reptiles that eat other reptiles, would that make the concept any less ethical? 

Wing_Nut


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2013)

Im talking about doing it in humans. We can do it to animals for research and in jag breeders for money, But if it was humans it wouldnt be allowed. Thats wrong.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2013)

Hell no. Jags are being bred knowing that they will have a neurological problem, its a given.
All jags will show this during their life. Most breeders always use the same old rubbish selling line that none or only 1 or 2 young in the clutch show signs of neuro blah blah blah. What they dont tell you is that this is normal because most wont show signs at that age. As they grow and age the fun begins.


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## Wing_Nut (Sep 1, 2013)

I guess that would depend entirely on where you were born and how you were raised. Are we so narrow minded to believe the relatively high standard of medical care available to us today was the result of doing no "wrong"? Stem cell research is a modern day example. It's "wrong" in a lot of "civilised" countries, but not in others. But the same research outcomes will be applied equally to our medical care. Again, if popular thought is that it is wrong, you won't stop it happening, you just wont hear about it. I guess that makes it far less wrong. 

Trueblue, best you don't eat chicken, after all they almost all are the result of breeding for genetic abnormalities. A bird with no feathers, how us that ethical? But it happens all the same. And much like "pure" morphs, all genetic abnormalities. Are you sure there won't be a fatal gene appearing in your line? Have you tested the progeny for lifespan and genetic health? Where do you draw the line?

Wing_Nut


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## TrueBlue (Sep 1, 2013)

If a fatal gene or simular appeared i would stop breeding them. So far all the animals from all generations that i have bred have shown no signs of ill health. All clutches have been normal with robust young. So far so good.


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## Wing_Nut (Sep 1, 2013)

I agree with the so good, the only downside is I can't have them where I live. If all breeders adopted the kind of approach and thought through each decision they made then the need for these kinds of discussions would be mute. For the record, none of the above is meant to criticise you individually, and should like all things be taken with a pinch of salt. It is a general commentary, and those who do hold themselves to a high moral standard should be applauded. My point being, who are we to judge. 

Wing_Nut


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Sep 30, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> serpentaria, Sorry but maybe you should do more reasearch, jags were supposed to be from 2 pure coastals but it in reality it came out that one if not both were IJ carpets, yes another morph of IJs. If you think that the zebra shown in this thread is pure, then have another good look at it.
> I agree 100 % with the zulu warrior, let anyone belive they are pure if they want, lifes like that lol.


I don't ned to do anything you tell me as I was not talking about Jags, only Zebras, not my fault Zulu is wrong


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## TrueBlue (Sep 30, 2013)

Belive what you want, I honestly dont care what you think.


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## zulu (Sep 30, 2013)

Its all "witchcraft" to turn mongrels into something respectable.


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## pythons unleashed (Sep 30, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> The line of thought that all carpets are identical due to the results of DNA testing is comparable to when man thought the Earth was flat. Remember that these latin names for subspecies are always changing as we know more, but most importantly these are simply names given by humans for humans. Does anyone really think that all childrens pythons got excited the day they went from Liasis to Antaresia?? All of our animals are in their geographical locations for a reason. Reasons we will probably never fully comprehend.
> 
> There wouldn't be many breeders who would have line bred siblings enough times to say much about the inheritable traits present in their collections let alone the mode of inheritance. We have been spoilt for choice with obtaining animals from a variety of sources and very few would have kept the gene pool small enough to isolate much of their knowings. I suppose if it's the end result that people are after, does the mode matter that much?
> 
> ...



Just to think John I though you and I where friends but after reading some of your post lately about jags it looks like we are not. I have over 300 jags now in my collection all but 8 I breed, to this date I have only sold on 20 jags and gave away most of their sibs and keeped back what I now use as breeders. I still have the pair of pure diamonds I purchased from you years ago and yes I have crossed them to my jags but now only breed them pure. 

What I ask is what sort of breeder do you think I am now considering what little money I have made from my jags and Zebra's. All are welcome to comment if they fill they need to.


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## zulu (Sep 30, 2013)

pythons unleashed said:


> Just to think John I though you and I where friends but after reading some of your post lately about jags it looks like we are not. I have over 300 jags now in my collection all but 8 I breed, to this date I have only sold on 20 jags and gave away most of their sibs and keeped back what I now use as breeders. I still have the pair of pure diamonds I purchased from you years ago and yes I have crossed them to my jags but now only breed them pure.
> 
> What I ask is what sort of breeder do you think I am now considering what little money I have made from my jags and Zebra's. All are welcome to comment if they fill they need to.



He is still your friend just voices his oppinion ,ive got friends that breed jags and zebs etc they say whats on their mind and its no problem , if respect is there you can say what you want. You know who the lowys are theyll go for insulting personal messages and stuff ,no up front goullies.


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## onimocnhoj (Sep 30, 2013)

pythons unleashed..

I am not quite that shallow mate. I don't think people with jags are the incarnation of satan. My comments on this forum are not thrown up in a haste of emotions to humiliate individuals or groups. However, these are my opinions on the jag scene - that's it. 

If you have so many jags, could you please inform the readers of this thread (and every other second thread at the moment) what do you do with specimens suffering from extreme neurological problems? How many do you have in an average clutch? Where do you draw the line?

Please share your experiences.

My concern lies with your give aways and not your income. If you have 300 jags, that equates to a lot of siblings. 

Where did/do they all go?


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## longqi (Oct 1, 2013)

pythons unleashed said:


> I have over 300 jags now in my collection all but 8 I breed, to this date I have only sold on 20 jags and gave away most of their sibs and keeped back what I now use as breeders.



That is a scary big number of siblings being sold or given away each year
100 females x 15 hatchies -5jags =1000 siblings =500 jags
150 females x 15 hatchies -5 jags =1500 siblings =750jags
200 females x 15 hatchies -5 jags =2000 siblings =1000 jags

So if you keep all the jags again those figures really explode in 3 years time??

In 10 years time you will need Sydney Olympic stadium to house them??

How many other jag breeders are doing similar things?


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Oct 1, 2013)

Can people get back on topic to talk about Jungle Zebras instead of wasting space with Jag discussions


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

pythons unleashed,-

Why do you have so many jags?.

Is it because you just cant sell them?. 
I think this may definitly be the case as i notice you have got adds trying to sell the same animals on here for ages and no one seems to want them. ( no offence at all ). Just certainly looks that way.


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> pythons unleashed,-
> 
> Why do you have so many jags?.
> 
> ...



maybe he was waiting for them to colour up before choosing his future breeders.... a lot of people do this but don't have the room or time to hold back whole clutches.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

Oh I see thats why the same ad for the same animal has been there for ages.

- - - Updated - - -

I dont mean that the way it sounds just pointing out that the tide is really turning, a few years ago they would of sold in a day or so. Now it seems they are very hard to get rid of.


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## longqi (Oct 2, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> its already been proven as to where the zebra gene came from, pure jungles, by reputable sources, even if it was overseas breeders. If you don't already know that then its not my problem. I've already researched my information because I need to if I am going to purchase one of these animals and add them to my collection eventually. So far the only morphs that have originated from IJs are Axanthic, independant of the same Coastal gene (which has not yet been proven out independantly as far as I know) and also the Granite morph, which has been proven that it originated from pure IJs. You need to research your info more.



Exactly how can any overseas seller prove their lines are pure anything??
Even the German high yellows, considered pick of the crop over seas, have an interesting back ground


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## pythons unleashed (Oct 2, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Oh I see thats why the same ad for the same animal has been there for ages.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I dont mean that the way it sounds just pointing out that the tide is really turning, a few years ago they would of sold in a day or so. Now it seems they are very hard to get rid of.



Just so you know. I have sold all 6 of those jags in the last 2 days and a free female sib with it one.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 2, 2013)

About time too, you kept dropping the price as well. 
What did they go for in the end.? $20.

- - - Updated - - -

Talking about zebras, ive also found out that the hatch rate is VERY low and what does hatch a good proportion of the young are kinked and or infertile. This is seems to be common overseas with all the zebra clutches produced to date.
So it beats the hell out of me why anyone would spend money on a snake that is highly likey to be infertile, and if you do manage to get one that is fertile, its likey that most eggs wont hatch and what does, most will have problems. Seems like a completey lost cause to me.
So much like jags, they have bad genes.


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## Luke_G (Oct 4, 2013)

Can't beat the old pure local specific snakes.... These designer snakes are just a phase and are sure to succumbed to their genetic defects. At the end of the day designer snakes are bred to target simple minds that are attracted to bright colours. The real hobbyist appreciates pure animals as they are found in the wild.


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## snakeprincess (Oct 4, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> About time too, you kept dropping the price as well.
> What did they go for in the end.? $20.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...



You sound a little bitter mate...what can't you afford to buy a snake from pythons Unleashed???


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## jahan (Oct 4, 2013)

hahahaha may be you could swap TB..:lol:


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## TrueBlue (Oct 4, 2013)

lol. Not bitter at all, why would i be.? Nothing against pythons unleashed at all. I dont mean it to be personal in any way. And i honestly apologise if thats the way it came across.
Just proving that jags have lost their appeal because of the neuro problems. You cant understand that.?


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## turtle (Oct 4, 2013)

Rob, that's a really good point you have pointed out about the fact that Zebra clutches are known to get deformities and to be infertile. I really can't see why people would want them(like blood diamonds) I think in reality, pure lines will be always be the favourite and the most sort after, in the not so distant future.

Dan


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## andynic07 (Oct 4, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> About time too, you kept dropping the price as well.
> What did they go for in the end.? $20.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


Is this true about zebras? This is the first that I have heard of it. I thought there was quite a few around now.


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## deebo (Oct 4, 2013)

The supers apparently the easiest things to produce but normal zebs are fine.


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## deebo (Oct 4, 2013)

The supers apparently aren't.......

How it should read.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 4, 2013)

It certainly seems that all zebras have this problem, not just supers.
They have been trying to breed new blood into them overseas for a while now in germany and the states to solve the problem, so far with no sucsses.


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## No-two (Oct 4, 2013)

snakeprincess said:


> You sound a little bitter mate...what can't you afford to buy a snake from pythons Unleashed???



Haa! You have no idea. 

So many naive keepers. They're not even worth getting for free to put in my freezer given the space they'd take up.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> About time too, you kept dropping the price as well.
> What did they go for in the end.? $20.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...




I have to apologise, but it appears (like our jag debates) you are only interpreting and conveying what you want to hear and what you want people to hear.......I am not trying to wage a war with you over this, just trying to put the facts of our experiences with this PURE JUNGLE MORPH out there. 

The hatch rates and kinking you refer to is only in the instance of breeding zebra to zebra to produce the superform. 

To date PLENTY of superform zebra's have been produced with no issues at all, but yes SOME have hatched with a kink. But it is possible to eliminate this as was done with Albino olives and hatching with their eye deformities or with no eyes. These days very few Albino olives hatch out with eye problems due to incubation trials and selective breeding.

Furthermore the breeder in Sydney (who bred my male PURE JUNGLE zebra pictured) did hatch superforms last season with the predicted quarter clutch ratio of supers and to date no kinks. Although it was only one clutch, but not long till this seasons pure jungle zebra superform clutch hatches.


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## enigma (Oct 5, 2013)

Barramundi, lets not start this like the Jags. How about the truth from the get go. Without a doubt there is a kink in the Super zebra, they get born with pig tails corkscrewed from the cloaca down, all of them, it is just that some also have a body kink as well. Try find a pic of one showing its tail, they are all posed sitting on them. Secondly, if you think there is going to be a super to super clutch this year, and that the offspring will be pure jungles... well all I can say is that you are either being sold down the river in regards pretty much all your info on them, or you are once again trying to pull the old "jags dont wobble" like you did last time. Its the same bag headed crew that couldnt lie straight in bed, even with each other it seems.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

On another note, the male in my above post looks to have sired 2 clutches with these 2 females. Both on pre-lay now and it will be interesting to see what influence the zebra gene has on high yellow or high black jungles.


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## enigma (Oct 5, 2013)

For what its worth, I know of none of the issues with the normal zebras some others are going on about, they seem sound.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 5, 2013)

Surfed the net and came up with few super zeb pics.
They look good to me.. 
But it is true some do get tail deformities.
If the owners of these images want them removed please contact me to do so..


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

enigma said:


> Barramundi, lets not start this like the Jags. How about the truth from the get go. Without a doubt there is a kink in the Super zebra, they get born with pig tails corkscrewed from the cloaca down, all of them, it is just that some also have a body kink as well. Try find a pic of one showing its tail, they are all posed sitting on them. Secondly, if you think there is going to be a super to super clutch this year, and that the offspring will be pure jungles... well all I can say is that you are either being sold down the river in regards pretty much all your info on them, or you are once again trying to pull the old "jags dont wobble" like you did last time. Its the same bag headed crew that couldnt lie straight in bed, even with each other it seems.



Your right Enigma, there are kinks, or sometimes a knob tail in the superforms......I havnt bred any supers yet, so sadly I cant post pics or comment on "my" experience. However the breeder who has is on this forum from time to time and maybe that person will comment and post pics, maybe his last seasons supers did have kinks, but to my knowledge they didnt......

In regards to our info, whether you or others choose to believe us, there are pure jungle Zebs and yes there are also crosses for whatever reason......

How about we keep the posting civil and on topic and not go down the road of implying I am a lier. Your reference to "Jags dont wobble" is an example of what I was talking about in Trueblue's post. Please dont get on here and only tell the side of the story you want heard by taking info out of context.

Interesting first post Enigma, what was your old username????????


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 5, 2013)

Examples of the deformed tails now..
Some are probably worse but at least these show examples of what is happening with some super Zebras.
Hope the original owners of these images overseas don't mind me sharing them. If so I shall remove them.
Cheers Roger.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Surfed the net and came up with few super zeb pics.
> They look good to me..
> But it is true some do get tail deformities.



Great post Roger, fertile eggs from that SUPER ZEBRA look the goods.....so much for them ALL having fertility issues.........

Can see the tail knobs on a few too but not all of them have kinks or corkscrews from the cloaca down as some like to claim......backs and spines look good, so it looks like an interesting and promising future for this morph.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 5, 2013)

Some examples of pure Jungle carpet python Zebras from overseas breeders.
Once again if the owners of these images want them removed please let me know..


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## enigma (Oct 5, 2013)

As you can see from the pics of the supers, you can either see the whole tail and notice they either have bump tails or pig tails, otherwise they are generally positioned or cropped not to show it. If you were to ask around, alot of the bump tails are due to clipping them, or letting a retained shed do it for you. Im not being all tin foil hat about it, but this page is 10 pages long now, with very little legitimate substance... Though Barra, "my" experience, being actual, you know physically in the presence of supers, they had pig tails. Im not saying Im some kind of authority on them, far from it, but at least Im speaking from some form of real tactile experience...


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## CHONDROS (Oct 5, 2013)

To say that zebras are infertile or have a low hatch rate is crap.I have breed zebras at 18 months both male and female and hatched the expected 50% of zebras in the clutches with no health issues at all


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

Enigma, 
The person who took that pic of that Super has forgotten more about reptile reproduction than most of us will ever know.........

Are you saying that the pic of the SUPER ZEB is staged? Looks to me that the egg is basically still just inside the cloaca.
Are you saying people are cutting off tail tips? I would highly doubt that, seeing that the pics shown clearly highlight the knob tail ends.

c'mon mate......thats some pretty big claims with no evidence

- - - Updated - - -



enigma said:


> As you can see from the pics of the supers, you can either see the whole tail and notice they either have bump tails or pig tails, otherwise they are generally positioned or cropped not to show it. If you were to ask around, alot of the bump tails are due to clipping them, or letting a retained shed do it for you. Im not being all tin foil hat about it, but this page is 10 pages long now, with very little legitimate substance... Though Barra, "my" experience, being actual, you know physically in the presence of supers, they had pig tails. Im not saying Im some kind of authority on them, far from it, but at least Im speaking from some form of real tactile experience...



Seeing that you feel so far there is no "legitimate substance" on this thread (I would think so far we have supported our claims as best we can) ......Can you elaborate on your experience being "actual".......


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## enigma (Oct 5, 2013)

Ok lets do it this way...The zebras Chondros up there claimed to have "bred" were on consignment, most of which were taken back, and why I made the comment about staging a zebra on a clutch of eggs to help with advertising. I understand the confusion it caused, as I in no way meant to cast aspersions on Paul Harris, so I apologise.Tail tips yeah....


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

enigma said:


> Ok lets do it this way...The zebras Chondros up there claimed to have "bred" were on consignment, most of which were taken back, and why I made the comment about staging a zebra on a clutch of eggs to help with advertising. I understand the confusion it caused, as I in no way meant to cast aspersions on Paul Harris, so I apologise.Tail tips yeah....



Sorry mate casting aspersions is exactly what you tried to do......I still dont see evidence of your claims of "actual experience" or as you put it "tactile experience". 

Mate I am not having a dig at you, I am simply trying to put this on a level playing field. 

We (morph breeders) get on here, post our pics and candidly offer our "actual" experiences. Only to be met with baseless and out of context claims usually from the same few......

We are called out to back up our claims and thats what we do. Its only fair that you and those few others do the same.....Like I said level playing field


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

Like I said, not having a dig at you, just trying to level the playing field.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Oct 5, 2013)

Barra hows your Jungle Zebra project going?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

Yeah quite good Serpentaria, 

I will have a few clutches this season, check out post 138 and 140 for pics of parents. Still waiting on one more female that developed follicles but i did not see ovulation, at this stage I assume she is gravid as she is opaque.....


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## TrueBlue (Oct 5, 2013)

Well after some decent amount of research it seems just as i said, they lay clutches that look nice and fertile, but the hatch rate can be very low. Thats with animals that are fertile.
It seems that a good proportion of the animals that do hatch overseas never breed. So a definite infertility problem going on. Its a lucky dip when people by these animals wether they will breed or not. Bit like buying a lotto ticket.

- - - Updated - - -

Must add, ive bred albino olives, albino x albino and albino x het and NEVER had a kink, eye problem, or lack of eyes at all.
Everyone of them has been large robust animals with 100% hatch rate and NO slugs. Not sure what your on about there barramundi.


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## deebo (Oct 5, 2013)

Can you provide links to this info true blue? Would be interested to read it.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Oct 5, 2013)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Yeah quite good Serpentaria,
> 
> I will have a few clutches this season, check out post 138 and 140 for pics of parents. Still waiting on one more female that developed follicles but i did not see ovulation, at this stage I assume she is gravid as she is opaque.....


Yeah I saw those, coz Im paying for two people atm I'm still raising funds to afford one!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 5, 2013)

I dont know how to do that stuff im hopeless with computers.
But have a look at a few uk, usa forums and its easy to find.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> Well after some decent amount of research it seems just as i said, they lay clutches that look nice and fertile, but the hatch rate can be very low. Thats with animals that are fertile.
> It seems that a good proportion of the animals that do hatch overseas never breed. So a definite infertility problem going on. Its a lucky dip when people by these animals wether they will breed or not. Bit like buying a lotto ticket.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...



Congrats Rob, awesome effort with the olives..........C'mon though, it is common knowledge that "SOME" (theres that word again) had/have the eye problems and "SOME" (again) had/have fertility issues. Line breeding and altered incubation has sorted most of it out..........Dr Gavin Bedford had it posted all over his Albino Olive website...........Surely your not omitting that info.

If sorting out those eye and fertility issues in alb olives can be done, and your post and your actual experience proves it can be done. Surely it can be done with the SUPER ZEBS.......


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## deebo (Oct 5, 2013)

Using the search function I tried "zebra infertile" - no results. "zebra fertile" - no results. Searched "zebra" and the first thread that comes up discusses issues with granites more than it actually mentions zebras. Not much else on the first couple of pages.....


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## No-two (Oct 5, 2013)

Small eyes... It does happen. I often wonder what this snake would look like as an adult.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 5, 2013)

burramundi,-

I disagree 100% with the fertility issues that you say albino olives have. People have trouble breeding normal olives, i find them as easy to breed as any other python. I also dissagree with the deformity problems, none of the albinos that i have produced have shown any signs of this at all. As you have said, probaly due to bad incubation techniques and nothing to do with the olives genetics.
Its just boils down to the way that they are raised and kept, simple as that. Bedford tried to tell me years ago that they wouldnt bred untill they were at least 4-5 years old. This is rubbish and i told him so. 
Ive bred normals, normal x albino, albino x het and albino x albino all at 2.5yrs old. With 100% fertility and hatch rate?.
I have 2 gravid albino x albino females and one gravid albino x het female at the moment. These are different animals than the ones that i have bred in the past.
I think that this pretty much disproves the infertiliy issues with them. Dont you?.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

Perhaps you might be right, you certainly seem to have the best success with olives out of anyone. 

Whether its your keeping technique, luck with acquiring robust stock or a combination of both I dont know. But your 100% success certainly isn't shared by others breeding this morph, or perhaps your omitting some info........

Others do breed this morph and quite regularly, but not without the occasional occurrence of previous mentioned issues that "SOME" (that word again) have exhibited. But as said they have worked through the issues and seem to have overcome them. Either way this is off topic and perhaps for another thread.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 5, 2013)

Not omitting any info at all, 100% truth and fact. And anyone that knows me well enough has seen this with their own eyes. I have nothing to hide.
I do keep and breed all my animals a bit differently to most other people especially olives, wether this has anything to do it i dont know.?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

Well, as said congrats, perhaps you will sell me some alb and het olives this season lol.......

You still havn't come up with your source of info from your remarks in post #155.......As stated earlier its only fair if your going to make claims you need to back it up with supporting evidence........Thats what you guys expect of us and we have happily complied, it would be appreciated if you would do the same..........


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## TrueBlue (Oct 5, 2013)

barramundi,-
I did supply the name of "one" of the overseas forums that i have found this info on, in post #158, but it was deleted by one of the mods.
If you have a look at some of them forums im sure you will find it easy enough.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 5, 2013)

I have only found info relating to Irian Jaya Granites being sometimes weak or infertile, some mention of noticeable tail defects in SUPER ZEBRAS (as pictured by JungleFreak) or the occasional morph problem feeder as encountered in numerous carpet clutches, but nothing as specific as you mention..........

Feel free to post it up again or pm if you like........


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## cement (Oct 6, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> at least the zebra and super zebra are proven, the carpet paradox isnt


 
Yeah, if your talking about the darwin paradox, i'm pretty sure it is proven. Just not full public knowledge yet.



BARRAMUNDI said:


> ,
> We (morph breeders) get on here, post our pics and candidly offer our "actual" experiences. Only to be met with baseless and out of context claims usually from the same few......
> 
> We are called out to back up our claims and thats what we do. Its only fair that you and those few others do the same.....Like I said level playing field



I want to ask Barramundi, what is the baseless and out of context claim/claims that you refer to?
and what are the claims that you are called out on?
seeing as this is what you say, considering that in the past i have found your answers very contradictory (regarding jags mainly) . I find used car salesmen more beleivable.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 6, 2013)

Cement, surely you have read this thread. But going by your post it would seem you haven't. If not maybe a good idea to revisit the last 3-4 pages especially.

Take note of posts #127, #136, #139, #155. These posts contain misguided and out of context remarks in relation towards Zebras being "ALL" infertile or "ALL" kinked and/or "ALL" weak from people who have never even kept, bred or maintained this morph, let alone seen one in the flesh.........These remarks are solely aimed at destabilising this thread or discrediting Zebras with shaky at best evidence.......

I have no problem with people stating their point of view, but when we do it we (morph breeders) are flamed by at times yourself, TrueBlue and a few others. We constantly back up our claims, whether you choose to believe them or not, I really don't care. It would seem from your "contradictory" comment you choose not to......

All we (morph breeders) expect is if someone chooses to challenge us or call us out on our "actual experiences" they offer some sort of evidence to back their claims. As said thats what you guys expect of us, and time and time again we back up our claims........ Just look at posts #138, #142, #143, #144, #149...........

I think its quite evident these earlier claims are baseless and out of context when you consider the evidence posted by JungleFreak.........


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## TrueBlue (Oct 6, 2013)

barramundi,-
One of the threads im refering to on one of these forums is specifically on zabra carpets, and a number of people have posted posts about this problem on it.
As said the mods wont let me post the site name, i did and it was deleted. Your a big boy now, its not hard to find. I wasnt even looking for zebra threads and found it.

By the way i didnot say that ALL zebras have this problem but a good percentage of them seem to.


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## cement (Oct 6, 2013)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> whether you choose to believe them or not, I really don't care. It would seem from your "contradictory" comment you choose not to......
> 
> How can I beleive anything a person says on an internet forum (of all places), who willingly breeds animals with genetic defects?
> "Us morph breeders", thats a nice way to explain away the low level ethics of your business.
> ...


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## Ramsayi (Oct 6, 2013)

cement said:


> BARRAMUNDI said:
> 
> 
> > How can I beleive anything a person says on an internet forum (of all places), who willingly breeds animals with genetic defects?
> ...


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## JezJez (Oct 6, 2013)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Cement, surely you have read this thread. But going by your post it would seem you haven't. If not maybe a good idea to revisit the last 3-4 pages especially.
> 
> Take note of posts #127, #136, #139, #155. These posts contain misguided and out of context remarks in relation towards Zebras being "ALL" infertile or "ALL" kinked and/or "ALL" weak from people who have never even kept, bred or maintained this morph, let alone seen one in the flesh.........These remarks are solely aimed at destabilising this thread or discrediting Zebras with shaky at best evidence.......
> 
> ...



Well said, I couldn't agree more. I rarely post on this forum anymore for the exact reasons above. Too many uneducated comments from people who probably have never even owned (or seen in the flesh) the animals they're criticising.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 6, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> By the way i didnot say that ALL zebras have this problem but a good percentage of them seem to.



Please refer to post #136

Either way this is just going around in circles.......again......

People can now see our side of the picture and your side of the picture, they are smart enough to make up their own minds as the info and reply's are there for all to read...........


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## Ramsayi (Oct 6, 2013)

JezJez said:


> Well said, I couldn't agree more. I rarely post on this forum anymore for the exact reasons above. Too many uneducated comments from people who probably have never even owned (or seen in the flesh) the animals they're criticising.



Given that you are referring to recently smuggled lines then I agree about people not having seen them in the flesh here.As far as uneducated comments go I don't agree given that there are a lot of first hand experiences on the subject from the breeders of those lines in the countries where the morph originated from.


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## deebo (Oct 6, 2013)

trueblue - do you agree that albino olives have had some defects in the line? blind, missing eyes etc...this may not be the norm but it is associated with the mutation. If thats the case then why did you get some and why do you breed them? You say this problem has been rectified but there would have been animals produced with this defect along the way (perhaps not in your collection but in others.) So whats the difference with super zebs having kinks? There have been supers produced with out kinks also.

You really seem to have your knickers in a twist over these animals - do you feel the same way about the albino spotteds? They are not a strong line - should people not keep and breed them?


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## gozz (Oct 6, 2013)

Deebo how many albinos defects have occurred ? To how many clutches ? Not many .
in the olive line . 
How many zebras have been produced ? To how many defects.? 
You see what makes oz snakes special was the way it wasn't molested with or by others, 
now the pretty little lollipops are here to taint our once pure lines this is the twister in thy KFC burger cheers


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## deebo (Oct 6, 2013)

cement - I dont really get what you are getting here(see below).....why is so hard to believe that would only occur in his collection? and what does whether a morph is seen in the wild or not got to do with anything? There are several mutations that have randomly popped up in peoples collections over here and given the size of the reptile in europe and the US i am sure there are a lot more animals being bred over there which would increase the chance of something weird popping out. Cant argue the pure jungle bit, just have to either believe him or not.

If the zebra comes from pure jungle to pure jungle breeding, why has it only occured in Paul Harris collection? Am I supposed to beleive that? Cut the BS bloke. You have no proof that its a pure jungle and I have no proof that its not, BUT...I do find it very difficult to beleive that considering every, (or a massive %) of morph in our aussie native stock occurs in the wild that WOW something like the zebra, granite, and jag only pops up overseas.

- - - Updated - - -

gozz - im not sure on the number of olives with defects, or the number of super zebs with defects, and i dont see how any keeper could know those numbers......but why is a few defects in one line ok, but a few in another not ok? and whats the magic number of when it becomes too many. I understand that with mutations there are often side affects, some we can see, others we probably cant and wont even know about it.

I dont know what you mean when you say zebras were "molested" - if you are against crossing sub species that happens without zebras and jags being around.


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## Kurama (Oct 6, 2013)

There seem to be thousands of zebra carpets overseas, but there is certainly not many super zebras.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 6, 2013)

barramundi,-
Sorry my bad, thats not what i ment bad wording by my part, when saying that all i ment was that it occurs in all zebra forms, not just supers.

deebo,- 
when i got given albino olives a few years back to raise and breed for someone, (thats how i got my animals a percentage of the young), NO i was unaware of any defects at all. Even up untill now the only thing ive heard was that albino x albino wont breed together, (or rarely), as they have a weak gene. Untill recently i had no knowledge of these defects you speak of.
I still dissagree about the weak gene, as i have had no problems with any of the olives that i have bred. I keep to myself alot in this hobby, especially since all the cross breeding and jags appeared. just not interested in any of that crap and dont want anything to do with it, and never will.
From what barramundi has said the people that have had this issue have now put it down to the wrong incubation techniques not genetics.

As for the albino spotteds i dont know much about them, as said i keep to myself alot, ( well except for a small circle of close herp friends only ). I dont keep spotteds so i dont have an interest in them atm.


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## cement (Oct 6, 2013)

deebo said:


> cement - I dont really get what you are getting here(see below).....why is so hard to believe that would only occur in his collection? and what does whether a morph is seen in the wild or not got to do with anything?
> 
> Deebo- I am a simple man. To my simplistic way of looking at things, unless the overseas breeders are taking their stock straight out of our backyard bush, then the same stock would have been bred here. Overseas breeders don't have anywhere near the numbers to work with that we do here (not to mention the fact that its all come from here originally), and yet its the big names that have been in the game for a while that just randomly have these morphs occur.
> Most morphs in captivity in aus that are of pure stock like albinoes, were WILD CAUGHT! Others like striping etc are also found IN THE WILD! These animals can be line bred, proved out with parent to offspring breedings and .....what do you know... you can even breed for super stripe or super RP etc and you dont get any where near the defects that you see in these overseas bred "pure" animals.
> So if someone wants to sell me something that has obviously come from overseas illegally, and they tell me its a certain something, but can't prove it.........other then "he said, she said........"lol!


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## zulu (Oct 6, 2013)

The genetics dont lie just the breeders LOL


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## deebo (Oct 6, 2013)

Cement - as I said, I can't argue whether it's pure jungle or not, you either believe it or you don't, same as with any person selling a pure animal. There have been a few morphs randomly pop up in private collections......t+ childreni, t+ stimmi, silver pepper md, albino stimmi,black woma, and probably more i cant think of, dont know of, so the fact some are wild caught means nothing. Some mutations have weaknesses attached with them or for some other reason do not survive as well in the wild, if they didn't they would all be more prevalent in the wild. 

I'm sure a lot of the overseas stock did come straight of our bush into their collections. 

And what about the pearl perthensis that has been produced? They are def from our backyard, the fact someone overseas has produced this morph before us is just plain luck.

I don't really care whether they are pure jungle or not but some of the points being made in this thread are illogical.


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## jinjajoe (Oct 6, 2013)

Absolutely hilarious confrontation between known breeders of albinos (Trueblue, Ramsayi etc & you all profiteered from them) which are ALL defected I should know having bred most of the albino reptiles available.... verses other Mutation breeders....

If the cap fits where it boys and stop splitting hairs because you are splitting my sides with laughter.


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## Trimeresurus (Oct 6, 2013)

jinjajoe said:


> Absolutely hilarious confrontation between known breeders of albinos (Trueblue, Ramsayi etc & you all profiteered from them) which are ALL defected I should know having bred most of the albino reptiles available verses other Mutation breeders....
> 
> If the cap fits where it boys and stop splitting hairs because you are splitting my sides with laughter.



My thoughts exactly, threads full of he said she said with no evidence for much of what is being spewed.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 6, 2013)

Huge difference breeding albs V smuggled morphs.Albs also don't come with neuro issues or deformed tails.


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## jinjajoe (Oct 6, 2013)

Poached Vs Smuggled...... Difference ?? reduced vigour, reduced fertility, slower growth rates Vs neuro, tail kinks etc.... Difference ???

not 13 pages worth anyway.... Live and let live as there isnt any moral high ground here unless you don't keep any morphs.... And even then there is the fact that we all keep reptiles in a box.....


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## cement (Oct 7, 2013)

deebo said:


> Cement - as I said, I can't argue whether it's pure jungle or not, you either believe it or you don't, same as with any person selling a pure animal. There have been a few morphs randomly pop up in private collections......t+ childreni, t+ stimmi, silver pepper md, albino stimmi,black woma, and probably more i cant think of, dont know of, so the fact some are wild caught means nothing. Some mutations have weaknesses attached with them or for some other reason do not survive as well in the wild, if they didn't they would all be more prevalent in the wild.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of the overseas stock did come straight of our bush into their collections.
> 
> ...



Like I've said before I dont care if its pure or not! When theres no proof either way with any animal, I can only go on my own research. If the research is inconclusive then I guess its up to me...right??
lol! But its not the same when you know the breeder you want to buy a pure animal off ONLY BREEDS PURE ANIMALS AND DOESN'T DABBLE IN THE GENETICALLY FLAWED CRAP!!
I'll see your pearl perthensis (good example there too), and raise you a stardust diamond lol! Just so you dont miss the point, the t+'s, woma, etc that have popped up out here are much more beleivably pure stock. But carpets are a different story and this is the thing thats coming back around to bite the people that breed both the smuggled imports and pure in their collection.

Hey, nothing wrong with selling for a profit, thats not the point here.

*Poached Vs Smuggled...... Difference ?? reduced vigour, reduced fertility, slower growth rates Vs neuro, tail kinks etc.... Difference ???*
Really?


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## onimocnhoj (Oct 7, 2013)

Although some morphs can have their disadvantages. Having hidden genetics floating around in collections from albino olives and Darwins will not have the same impact that the hidden JAG genes will. The same would have to be said for Zebras.

Poaching and smuggling are not too different on paper. Both are not legal, both raise ethical issues and both directly profit the first man on the job - in a big way. Both parties also have to justify why the animals are required in collections.

Smugglers have to be a little more sneaky with their method of transport/assimilation to avoid trouble with the law, thus avoiding any AQIS procedure. You can bet the guys on the receiving end of the travelled goods are also in a real hurry to be the first to have the 'next best thing' for sale.

One thing that raises hairs on my neck is the absence of quarantine from start to finish throughout the entire operation. If rainbow super zebras make their way here via illegal short cuts, how many would give them 12 months isolation to see if there were any health issues? Straight to the breeding program is where they'd go to be bred with anything and everything.

Forget the neuro, kinked tails, etc for a minute. What about new viruses?

It makes me seriously wonder if any microscopic travellers have hitched a ride with smuggled goods. It also makes me wonder if some of the neurological issues people mention these days are hereditary or contagious. How many would simply say, "Oh, that's just the JAG thing making it look at the stars." ??

Ethics of captivity aside, when I look at the difference between a healthy python poached from the wild Vs one smuggled via 'X' amount of captive collections worldwide - the difference is clear.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 7, 2013)

How did poaching come into the debate anyway,especially when albino morphs were mentioned in the same sentence? As far as I am aware both darwin and olive albs were not poached so it's a strawman argument anyway.


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## onimocnhoj (Oct 7, 2013)

I suppose the word 'poached' was used because they both originated from wild specimens. How they have been compared to smuggled morelia is a stretch.


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## Ramsayi (Oct 7, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> I suppose the word 'poached' was used because they both originated from wild specimens. How they have been compared to smuggled morelia is a stretch.



Yeah I guess those that support smuggling need to try and put some type of spin on it to try and justify their stance.


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## cement (Oct 7, 2013)

jinjajoe said:


> Absolutely hilarious confrontation between known breeders of albinos (Trueblue, Ramsayi etc & you all profiteered from them) which are ALL defected I should know having bred most of the albino reptiles available.... verses other Mutation breeders....
> 
> If the cap fits where it boys and stop splitting hairs because you are splitting my sides with laughter.



Haha! If the cap fits don't worry we'll all wear it. But it doesn't.

Just one big problem though and that is your statement about breeding albino ..............Do you mind if I ask exactly what albino you have bred and what success you have had, and how you equate that success with giving you the authority to come across as a big time albino breeder and say they are all defected?

Would you agree that keeping animals in the wrong conditions may be a cause for them not to breed?:lol:

I get the feeling that you have no idea. 13 pages of good quality!!!!!! Maybe not so much for the white knights that beleive that the next best thing will come from Europe or the States though!! 
Now my sides are like yours and split with laughter!!:lol:


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## jinjajoe (Oct 7, 2013)

Savaged by the APS crew.... Ha ha...

Such an amicable crowd.


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## cement (Oct 7, 2013)

Lol, well you threw the first stone, by stating things not true!!

The smuggled morphs time is over. They have run their course, and now everyone (well maybe not everyone), but a lot of people who have gotten in there now want out because it aint what they were led to beleive!!
Come over to the dark side, buddy, get off that donkey its lost the race. We have Australian stock, we don't need imported rubbish that ends up being disapointing for the keepers, polutes the hobby, and not only makes a mockery of all of us, but divides the herp keeping community.
The world is in awe of what we have here, the grass ain't greener over there, it is defected because thats all they have, they make do with what they have and thats that. Don't be fooled into turning away from your own countries natural beauty by envious foreigners.......or greedy fellow countrymen, posing as animal lovers. Succumb to the darkside lol!!

I bet if you were more amicable ginger you may have more luck breeding those albino:lol:


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 7, 2013)

cement said:


> Just one big problem though and that is your statement about breeding albino ..............Do you mind if I ask exactly what albino you have bred and what success you have had, and how you equate that success with giving you the authority to come across as a big time albino breeder and say they are all defected?



Cement, 
Your reply is exactly what my beef throughout this thread has been regarding, most comments by purists in regards to morphs have been unfounded and baseless comments with no experience at all in dealing with these morphs..........looks like the shoe is on the other foot now.........


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## andynic07 (Oct 7, 2013)

cement said:


> Lol, well you threw the first stone, by stating things not true!!
> 
> The smuggled morphs time is over. They have run their course, and now everyone (well maybe not everyone), but a lot of people who have gotten in there now want out because it aint what they were led to beleive!!
> Come over to the dark side, buddy, get off that donkey its lost the race. We have Australian stock, we don't need imported rubbish that ends up being disapointing for the keepers, polutes the hobby, and not only makes a mockery of all of us, but divides the herp keeping community.
> ...


I don't think that either side of this argument are happy with the "natural beauty" of our snakes, jag breeders , subspecies crossers and pure line breeders are all trying to breed for different patterns.


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## jinjajoe (Oct 7, 2013)

To Cement......

the Heterozygous form breed more readily in the same environment which answers your initial silly question...... Whereas the albinos more sporadically.

this is the case in Albino Blue Tongues, Albino Tree Skinks, Albino Darwin Carpets & Albino Olives. I have tried Het x Het, Albino X Het, Albino x Wild Type & Albino x Albino pairings in all of the above...... & yes the Albinos in all of the above are in my experience are less fertile......

More data just to pacify you is pointless....


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## The_Geeza (Oct 7, 2013)

Im reading this thread every day.....Let's keep the Red Neck side out of it shall we and continue with what the thread is about


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## TrueBlue (Oct 7, 2013)

jinjajoe,-
Sorry buddy but you are wrong on everything that you have said involing albino olives. I have not made one cent off them for starters, as said the albino olives that i have bred were not mine but some elses that i raised and bred for them. The animals that i have are my percenage for breeding them for them. The owner of these animals made profit not me.
You then state that they have reduced vigour, slower growth, and have defects. If you have found this when you are breeding them then you are definitely doing something wrong. Bad husbandry and or wrong incubation techniques. So this has been your falt not the genetics of the animals. I have proven this once and have just proven it again this season, with out a dought.


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## gozz (Oct 7, 2013)

Jinjoe did you even breed albino olives ?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 7, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> jinjajoe,-
> Sorry buddy but you are wrong on everything that you have said involing albino olives. I have not made one cent off them for starters, as said the albino olives that i have bred were not mine but some elses that i raised and bred for them. The animals that i have are my percenage for breeding them for them.
> You then state that they have reduced vigour, slower growth, and have defects. If you have found this when you are breeding them then you are definitely doing some thing wrong. Bad husbandry and or wrong incubation techniques. So this has been your falt not the genetics of the animals. I have proven this once and have just proven it again this season, with out a dought.



TrueBlue, 
these may be your experiences but "all" (alb olives) are not like this. You have to be honest that "some" certainly do have reduced vigour and "some" have fertility issues and "some" have eye defects........but not "all".......Exactly the same with jags and exactly the same with Zebras.........


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## TrueBlue (Oct 7, 2013)

barramundi,-

No im sorry but i donot agree.
I know exactly why alot of people have trouble with males when it comes to breeding vigour and fertility, (the same applys to females), and it has nothing to do with the genetics of the animals.
As for the defects you keep speaking of, you yourself have even stated in this very thread that it was wrong incubation techniques and that they have now sorted this problem out.
How can it have anything to do with their genetics if they have sorted this problem this out.?????


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 7, 2013)

For eye defects to occur in just the albino line and not standard olives clearly suggests that the eye defects are linked to albinism........

Dont get me wrong, I love alb olives and think they are solid animals and a worthy project..........This is proof that defects can be worked through and negated.......


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## TrueBlue (Oct 7, 2013)

barramundi,-
Unusual thou that none of the albino olives that i have bred have shown any sign of this.
Honestly im over all this bickering, life is to short and the hobby to small.
We all need to find some common ground on all these issues with each other. The hobby used to be so much fun for so many years, and look what we are all doing to it. Im as much to blame as anyone, more so in sonme areas.
Im prepared to extend the first olive branch and WILL sell some of this comming seasons hypos to some of the people that keep jags out there. They will soon learn to keep them pure for the hobby, their own, and the animals best interest. These things are stunning and get better with each shed, they will find out that it is pointless to breed them with anything but pure coastals.
cheers all

Rob.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 7, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> barramundi,-
> Unusual thou that none of the albino olives that i have bred have shown any sign of this.
> Honestly im over all this bickering, life is to short and the hobby to small.
> We all need to find some common ground on all these issues with each other. The hobby used to be so much fun for so many years, and look what we are all doing to it. Im as much to blame as anyone, more so in sonme areas.
> ...



Rob, 
I just want to clarify, morph breeders don't go crossing every animal in their collection, we/I still keep and maintain pure wild type and line bred herps that are not utilised in morph breeding. 

I don't find it unusual at all that you haven't experienced issues. Perhaps now you understand why I had defended my experiences with my JAG lines so vigourously........

If you are genuine (which it seems you are) put me down for the first pair so I can continue your line as a pure, as said I do maintain pure lines as well............A huge step forward. I and I am sure others will appreciate it........cheers


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## TrueBlue (Oct 7, 2013)

100% genuine.
Im just to old for all this crap, and as said but MUST be said again. Just look at the damage we are all doing to the hobby, its just bloody ridiculous and getting way beyond a joke.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 7, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> 100% genuine.
> Im just to old for all this crap, and as said but MUST be said again. Just look at the damage we are all doing to the hobby, its just bloody ridiculous and getting way beyond a joke.



Cheers Rob, agreed.....


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## TrueBlue (Oct 7, 2013)

Cool.
There are people out there in the hobby,(old school herps), that have just disolved into their shell because of all this bickering and what not, that keep some amazing stuff, pied balled bhps as just one example. And the hobby is missing out on things like this because of the way things have gone over the last decade or so. Theres species in collections,(100% legal), that almost eveyone dosnt even know exsists. Ive seen and held some of these animals and seen the paper work that proves they are 100% legal. Its such a shame that 99% of people in the hobby may never get to see or hold such animals. All this animosity just has to stop for any chance to make things like the old days and get these guys to join the main stream again.


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## pythons unleashed (Oct 7, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> 100% genuine.
> Im just to old for all this crap, and as said but MUST be said again. Just look at the damage we are all doing to the hobby, its just bloody ridiculous and getting way beyond a joke.



So agree


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## FAY (Oct 7, 2013)

I cannot understand why there is any bickering at all. Probably because you are mostly males :lol:
There is room in this hobby for all.
Morph or JAG breeders ALSO love their pure lines and will ALWAYS keep them pure.
It is a personal choice what people want to breed. I am not into JAGS but that is MY choice, I don't bang on about it every waking hour of my day. I enjoy my pures and respect other peoples choices. 
Why can't others do the same, it is EASY really.


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## jinjajoe (Oct 7, 2013)

gozz said:


> Jinjoe did you even breed albino olives ?



I said 'tried' and yes I bred 100% hets last year and have a 100% het x het clutch in the incubator right now.

thanks Trent for your insightful input...


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## gozz (Oct 7, 2013)

Just asking ...


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## AmazingMorelia (Oct 7, 2013)

Barramundi : Honest question here. You state your Zebras are pure jungle. Zebras were smuggled into this country illegally dont you agree? In Europe and the US the vast majority of Zebras have been crossed with everything from Jags, to Granites, to whatever else. So unless you smuggled the animals into the country yourself or were involved with the people who did, then you cannot say you know them to be pure, as you wouldnt know the source, would you?
Thats how I read into your claims of pure jungle. 
And again like I said, its an honest question. Its juat a logical thought that has nothing to do with personalities (i dont know you, your proberbly a great guy)
So please dont think i am accusing you of anything, im not. Rather than saying you smuggled Zebras in, i am saying its too hard to guarentee the purity of Zebras and so they shouldnt be called pure jungles.
Other than that I actually like the look of them, however few are as yellow as I would expect a jungle to be.


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## zulu (Oct 8, 2013)

You cant trust breeders even here in australia with the pure tales let alone overseas ,good example is diamonds. Its compounded when these so called experienced mates (thats the usual) keep jungles, coastals etc.
The recipients swear by the purity of the animals in total disregard of the physical evidence which can be small jungle type clutches of ten eggs or so ,or very irregular looking hatchlings.
Its happened to me in the past and it happens with many others, humans lie (allot) but DNA reveals all .
Having these pure bred LOL jungle zebs and coastals with jags ( i think thats how the story goes) muddys the waters further.


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## Mo Deville (Oct 8, 2013)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Some examples of pure Jungle carpet python Zebras from overseas breeders.
> Once again if the owners of these images want them removed please let me know..



oh man I loooove zebra and super zebra Jungle morphs, great pics Roger!!!!


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## The Devil (Oct 8, 2013)

FAY said:


> I cannot understand why there is any bickering at all. Probably because you are mostly males :lol:
> There is room in this hobby for all.
> Morph or JAG breeders ALSO love their pure lines and will ALWAYS keep them pure.
> It is a personal choice what people want to breed. I am not into JAGS but that is MY choice, I don't bang on about it every waking hour of my day. I enjoy my pures and respect other peoples choices.
> Why can't others do the same, it is EASY really.




Well said Fay........


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## Retic (Oct 8, 2013)

Well I imagine Paul (Harris) is having a huge laugh at the nonsense in this thread.


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## sevrum (Oct 8, 2013)

FAY said:


> I cannot understand why there is any bickering at all. Probably because you are mostly males :lol:
> There is room in this hobby for all.
> Morph or JAG breeders ALSO love their pure lines and will ALWAYS keep them pure.
> It is a personal choice what people want to breed. I am not into JAGS but that is MY choice, I don't bang on about it every waking hour of my day. I enjoy my pures and respect other peoples choices.
> Why can't others do the same, it is EASY really.



this is by far the best post on this thread......thanks FAY


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## Djbowker (Oct 8, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> About time too, you kept dropping the price as well.
> What did they go for in the end.? $20.



Having seen the amazing snakes he has on offer, including numerous pures, the Jags, which make up maybe at most 1-5% of his snakes, are all amazing looking specimens, and I felt privileged to be able to snare one before they all went.

And how many people have pure snakes for sale for ages on these forums?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2013)

Djbowker,-
Read on to other posts mate you missed the point completely.
Not really ever worth the comment.


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## Djbowker (Oct 8, 2013)

Was simply remarking on your posts about lack of interest of his jags, and how long they talk to sell.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2013)

anyones jags mate, that was the point.
Im over all this, be nice or dont bother.


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## andynic07 (Oct 8, 2013)

Djbowker said:


> Having seen the amazing snakes he has on offer, including numerous pures, the Jags, which make up maybe at most 1-5% of his snakes, are all amazing looking specimens, and I felt privileged to be able to snare one before they all went.
> 
> And how many people have pure snakes for sale for ages on these forums?



Things just settled down on this thread and I think that progress was made in the feud between purists and jag/cross breeders so no need to bring it back up.


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## AmazingMorelia (Oct 8, 2013)

FAY said:


> _*Morph or JAG breeders ALSO love their pure lines and will ALWAYS keep them pure.*_
> It is a personal choice what people want to breed. I am not into JAGS but that is MY choice, I don't bang on about it every waking hour of my day. I enjoy my pures and respect other peoples choices.
> Why can't others do the same, it is EASY really.



Unfortunatly the vast majority of "Morph" breeders don't keep their lines pure. We arnt talking about someone who breeds Albinos or Hypos, we are talking about people who cross breed Jags with Inlands, with Darwins, with Jungles, with Diamonds, even with GTPs and RSPs. The term "Morph Breeder" has been hijacked by those that just cross breed. I breed "Morphs". I breed Hypos, and reduced patterns, and Albinos etc. But I don't cross breed. 
So I read your comments as "People who cross breed their animals love their pure animals and will always keep them pure", which makes no sense. 
Im not attacking anyone who cross breeds, what people do is between them and their regulatory body.


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## FAY (Oct 8, 2013)

So, are you saying that these breeders would NEVER have a PURE pair that they would breed and sell the offspring in spite of using one of them to cross breed when they wanted to...is that what you are saying?? That every pure bred they owned they would never breed pure again?? I know a lot of jag/morph breeders who still breed pure as well. They do not cross breed everything..
Yes, maybe I worded that a bit wrong, but I am sure you knew exactly what I meant..


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## Retic (Oct 8, 2013)

The vast majority of breeders I know that breed 'crosses' are also extremely proud of their pure lines, the assertion that morph breeders dont breed pure animals is quite frankly absurd and seems to have no basis in fact. Unfortunately just more scaremongering.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Oct 8, 2013)

Im on both sides, both for pures and crosses, considering I own both. So anyone going to start talking about Zebras again anytime?


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## AmazingMorelia (Oct 9, 2013)

boa said:


> The vast majority of breeders I know that breed 'crosses' are also extremely proud of their pure lines, the assertion that morph breeders dont breed pure animals is quite frankly absurd and seems to have no basis in fact. Unfortunately just more scaremongering.



That's a straw man argument. I have never said people who breed crosses don't also have pure animals in their collections. I am not sure how someone would pull that from my statements. I said the comment that people who breed crosses always keep their animals pure was rather strange. Faye said it was not written the best way, so that's fine.



boa said:


> Well I imagine Paul (Harris) is having a huge laugh at the nonsense in this thread. <img title="Smile" class="inlineimg" alt="" src="http://static.aussiepythons.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" border="0" smilieid="1">



When did we ever start worring what a POM thinks? lol

- - - Updated - - -



FAY said:


> I cannot understand why there is any bickering at all. Probably because you are mostly males :lol:
> There is room in this hobby for all.
> Morph or JAG breeders ALSO love their pure lines and will ALWAYS keep them pure.
> It is a personal choice what people want to breed. I am not into JAGS but that is MY choice, I don't bang on about it every waking hour of my day. I enjoy my pures and respect other peoples choices.
> Why can't others do the same, it is EASY really.


There are some serious issues with the "Morph" breeding industry that do need to be pointed out.
Do you realize that both the JAG and Zebras have been smuggled into Australia, and this is where these bloodlines come from. Are you ok with that? Do you think those who are involved with it should be included as another loving member of the Herp community? Do you know that bringing in these smuggled animals can introduce new virus's and diseases into our country? Do you think the people who do this should be outcasts, as well as criminals? The reality is by making all these smuggled morphs acceptable and by defending them you only make the practice of smuggling morphs into the country more viable. 
Do you have an issue with seeing animals suffering from Neuro? If so do you think we should avoid breeding them? 
There are ethical questions that do need to be asked here. To turn a blind eye is one way to deal with it.
As the saying goes, Silence is nothing more than quiet approval.
We don't need to attack people personally, or accuse them of things they haven't done, but honesty is needed.

I am all for selective breeding and morphs that come from Australian collections. If I produced a scaleless Murray Darling I would breed it and keep it. If I produced a healthy Lucy I would keep it. That's not an issue, and its why I consider myself a "morph" breeder. But I don't cross sub species, and I keep away from things that I ethically don't like (Neuro).
I see that we are just so quick to look at what they have O/S and think we are missing out by not having them. A pure Diamond python that you can prove its purity in the US is worth far more than a hot Jungle x Diamond Jag. A pure Gammon would be worth more. They would love to have our diversity of localities. But we just feel we have to breed a Jag to everything we can.
And its interesting to note the Pure vs Cross breeding debate is actually quite hot in the US now. A lot of people in the US are sad to see the lack of pure localites in their own collections.


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## Wing_Nut (Oct 9, 2013)

Can females store sperm? Is it possible that a previous cross species breeding could influence in anyway the outcome of a subsequent pure mating and vice versa? 

I am genuinely interested in thoughts towards the possibility of this. 

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## AmazingMorelia (Oct 9, 2013)

Yep its happened a few times. Not sure how it would go on a second breeding tho. Interesting question.


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## Djbowker (Oct 9, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> anyones jags mate, that was the point.
> Im over all this, be nice or dont bother.



Wasn't trying to have a dig at you mate.


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## slide (Oct 9, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> Can females store sperm? Is it possible that a previous cross species breeding could influence in anyway the outcome of a subsequent pure mating and vice versa?
> 
> I am genuinely interested in thoughts towards the possibility of this.



As I caught up on the last few posts this same thought came to mind. As already said, yes it is known to happen and if for example a clutch was produced one year of say a zeb male over a pure jungle female and some sperm was retained (unknown to the breeder) then the next season a pure jungle male was then put over the pure jungle female and the offspring were all normal looking jungles, there is still a chance that the buyer may be purchasing a sib that was fathered with the zebs sperm from the previous season without either party being aware.

Despite this hypothetical situation, considering the potential money to be made, my guess would be that the second season would be fathered by the Zeb again. But I definately see where you are going with this and it raises the issue, should the female then not be considered pure? Food for thought...

Aaron


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## ZackBeaven (Oct 9, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> jinjajoe,-
> Sorry buddy but you are wrong on everything that you have said involing albino olives. I have not made one cent off them for starters, as said the albino olives that i have bred were not mine but some elses that i raised and bred for them. The animals that i have are my percenage for breeding them for them. The owner of these animals made profit not me.
> You then state that they have reduced vigour, slower growth, and have defects. If you have found this when you are breeding them then you are definitely doing something wrong. Bad husbandry and or wrong incubation techniques. So this has been your falt not the genetics of the animals. I have proven this once and have just proven it again this season, with out a dought.



I found this pretty amusing this whole thread you have been blatantly bad mouthing animals you do not keep and quoting things from websites that cannot be found, the moment someone expresses his opinion on his breeding efforts you deny what he is saying and slam him as being "wrong on every thing" and making out that he is not a good keeper. So Mabie next time think about all these claims about these morphs you are slamming as being inferior animals that should not be bred because it can be said about what you are keeping aswell 


0.1 diamond jungle jag 1.0 diamond 1.1 classic Bredli


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## TrueBlue (Oct 9, 2013)

What i have said can be found very easliy, infact a jag keeper from this site has pmed me with another well known overseas site that is saying the same thing.??

I do belive he is wrong on most of what he said, bad husbandry was probally a bit harsh, yes you are right there and i appologise for that uncalled for remark, but i also said husbandry AND OR incubation, so not a direct stab at his keeping at all, i should of put wrong husbandry for these animals not bad. Sorry again.
As said i have had no problems with any defects at all with any albino olives that i have bred. As for the fertility issues, as said again i know exactly why people are are finding this, and it has nothing to with genetics.
The olives i have are prodgeny from animals that came from Bedford, so the same as everone elses yet i have no issues with them. You dont find this strange or unusual.?


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## onimocnhoj (Oct 10, 2013)

Olives are harder to breed than many other Australian pythons and unlike carpet pythons, they won't breed just by putting two in the same box. I imagine this is the main reason many have trouble breeding the Albino olives. Not because they are albino, but simply because they are olives..


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## AmazingMorelia (Oct 10, 2013)

Not that I have any interest in Olives, but what do you need to do differently?


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## andynic07 (Oct 10, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> Not that I have any interest in Olives, but what do you need to do differently?



Good luck with that, I think TrueBlue has Austrslia's best kept secret.


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## cement (Oct 10, 2013)

No, there are others with this secret. If more people paid attention to these animals in their wild form and how they survive in the wild, they would probably work it out. Its a bit sad that human nature tends to follow the easiest path with everything (the path with least resistance), because it upsets them when the guys that put in the hard yards don't give them what they want.
And as a prior poster here mentioned that the albino is a no go where the same conditions made hets successful, it really comes down to what ISN'T being said. If you want to talk about the differences in keeping then ask the successful breeders, not the unsuccessful ones. But, this in no way garantees that they will tell you!
There are people who watch this site but do not post who are very, very successful, and have true experience.

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jinjajoe said:


> To Cement......
> 
> the Heterozygous form breed more readily in the same environment which answers your initial silly question...... Whereas the albinos more sporadically.
> 
> ...



What can I say, that really is quality data.



boa said:


> Well I imagine Paul (Harris) is having a huge laugh at the nonsense in this thread.



Hands up who cares.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Oct 10, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> Unfortunatly the vast majority of "Morph" breeders don't keep their lines pure. We arnt talking about someone who breeds Albinos or Hypos, we are talking about people who cross breed Jags with Inlands, with Darwins, with Jungles, with Diamonds, even with GTPs and RSPs.



i think the above quote is what Fay was getting at..........

In regards to guaranteeing whether these morph lines are pure, I see where you and others are coming from. Basically my scenario is, I bought my Zebs from the breeder as hatchos approx 18 months ago, with a solid understanding they are pure Jungle. I saw the parents, other hatchos and pics of the adults mating and eggs hatching....

As I have known the breeder for a long time and we are good friends away from herp, I do have confidence in what he has said and shown to me...... 

As the morph originated in Jungles and has been subsequently bred to Jungles I do go under the premise they(mine) are pure jungle. I do also have a non pure Jungle zeb from the same breeder and the difference visually is dramatic. Therefore giving myself further confidence they (my zebs) are pure jungle. Basically I purchased mine from the breeder with the correct permits and paper and with the understanding they were pure jungle (except for the outcross) and that is the premise I go on now.......

But like you say I cant 100% prove they are pure, but the evidence I was presented with suggests they are......I will grab some pics of the pures and of the outcross and post up shortly.....

Can I ask you this, do you have the same issues with the absolute majority of Gtp's in collections in Aus??????


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## lexy1 (Oct 10, 2013)

I love my Zeb say what you want this is usual he said she said all the time when it boils down too it we are all in the same amazing hobby that we all so feel passionately about we will always have different views we are only human thats what makes us individuals so i believe everyone that shares the same passion should respect those different views and move on together!! as the crazy snake lovers that we are!! just my thoughts...he looks hot though i reckon... ha ha


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## longqi (Oct 10, 2013)

lexy1 said:


> I love my Zeb say what you want this is usual he said she said all the time when it boils down too it we are all in the same amazing hobby that we all so feel passionately about we will always have different views we are only human thats what makes us individuals so i believe everyone that shares the same passion should respect those different views and move on together!! as the crazy snake lovers that we are!! just my thoughts...he looks hot though i reckon... ha haView attachment 298469



NICE jungle
Looks like a few up here that are similar but a bit bigger??
YEEHAH
I can bust the zebra market wide open??


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## lexy1 (Oct 10, 2013)

ha ha what you dont reckon its a pure zeb?


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## Retic (Oct 10, 2013)

lexy1 said:


> ha ha what you dont reckon its a pure zeb?



Absolutely beautiful, I have a pair just like it.


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## lexy1 (Oct 10, 2013)

No really I think it does and thats all that matters!


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## longqi (Oct 10, 2013)

lexy1 said:


> ha ha what you dont reckon its a pure zeb?



Might be pure jungle
But only if pure jungles hit 6metres??

Aussie jungle keepers might need bigger vivs in future


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## Retic (Oct 10, 2013)

longqi said:


> Might be pure jungle
> But only if pure jungles hit 6metres??



Fortunately mine wont get anywhere near that size


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## lexy1 (Oct 10, 2013)

Whoops forgot to crop the tail sorry guys secrets out!!! Wow all jokes aside Longqi that is stunning a bali zeb?


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## Retic (Oct 10, 2013)

longqi said:


> Might be pure jungle
> But only if pure jungles hit 6metres??
> 
> Aussie jungle keepers might need bigger vivs in future



Far and away my favourite python species.


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## Perko (Oct 10, 2013)

That's one of the best zeb's I've seen in Oz Lexy.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 10, 2013)

Perko said:


> That's one of the best zeb's I've seen in Oz Lexy.



Second that.. Got any other zebs ?


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## AmazingMorelia (Oct 10, 2013)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> i think the above quote is what Fay was getting at..........
> 
> In regards to guaranteeing whether these morph lines are pure, I see where you and others are coming from. Basically my scenario is, I bought my Zebs from the breeder as hatchos approx 18 months ago, with a solid understanding they are pure Jungle. I saw the parents, other hatchos and pics of the adults mating and eggs hatching....
> 
> ...



The GTP is really no different. Although someone did get caught smuggling them into the country.
Alot of people point to the amnesty in NSW to say they are above board now. I dont keep GTPs at this point in time, but yes its very similar to the Jag/Zeb situation.


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## lexy1 (Oct 10, 2013)

Not fertile sorry Roger as all the other long term Zeb breeders in this thread have stated... such a shame really!


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 10, 2013)

Infertility can happen when breeding female jungles at under 2 years old etc. 
Always next season..
Good luck.


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## yellowbeard (Oct 23, 2013)

From what I understand the Zebra morph was produce by Paul Harris (UK) in 2003 from a pairing of pure jungles (as they do have pure lines in the UK and EU as well as the USA), in 2008 Paul Harris proved it as co-dominate by producing the Super Zebra.

What's going to be next the MD albinos and the Jungle Axanthics are hybrids too?

LOL love these threads


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## AmazingMorelia (Oct 23, 2013)

What info do you have on the Albino MD? would be cool to see what it looks like. Any pics?


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## mungus (Oct 23, 2013)

Not the best photo after reducing the size etc from my phone..........


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## Retic (Oct 23, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> From what I understand the Zebra morph was produce by Paul Harris (UK) in 2003 from a pairing of pure jungles (as they do have pure lines in the UK and EU as well as the USA), in 2008 Paul Harris proved it as co-dominate by producing the Super Zebra.



Spot on. I find it so funny when people say there are no pure lines outside of Australia.


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Oct 24, 2013)

Hi yellowbeard, got any info on jungle axanthics? I've heard stories, but nothing solid about pure lines being bred here in Aus


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## yellowbeard (Oct 24, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> What info do you have on the Albino MD? would be cool to see what it looks like. Any pics?



Sorry my bad, I meant the Albino mcdowlli that was on the other Australian Reptile forum

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Serpentaria said:


> Hi yellowbeard, got any info on jungle axanthics? I've heard stories, but nothing solid about pure lines being bred here in Aus



Google is you friend, just search axanthic jungle it is listed on the website which can tell you all about it


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## aussie-albino (Oct 25, 2013)

Nice Jungle Mungus 

cheers
Scott

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lexy1 said:


> View attachment 298474
> No really I think it does and thats all that matters!




I like this one to mate.

cheers
Scott


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## SpilotaFreak78 (Oct 25, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> Google is you friend, just search axanthic jungle it is listed on the website which can tell you all about it


Actually I know which website you're talking about, those folks have been out of business for some time so its no help, thanks anyway. SO back onto Zebra talk!


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## longqi (Oct 26, 2013)

Originally Posted by *yellowbeard* 

 From what I understand the Zebra morph was produce by Paul Harris (UK) in 2003 from a pairing of pure jungles (as they do have pure lines in the UK and EU as well as the USA), in 2008 Paul Harris proved it as co-dominate by producing the Super Zebra.



boa said:


> Spot on. I find it so funny when people say there are no pure lines outside of Australia.



There are no pure carpet lines internationally that can be proved to be pure lines


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## Retic (Oct 26, 2013)

longqi said:


> Originally Posted by *yellowbeard*
> 
> From what I understand the Zebra morph was produce by Paul Harris (UK) in 2003 from a pairing of pure jungles (as they do have pure lines in the UK and EU as well as the USA), in 2008 Paul Harris proved it as co-dominate by producing the Super Zebra.
> 
> ...



So its basically the same as in Australian then? Jungles are only found in Queensland and it is illegal to take from the wild so any Jungles in captivity would have to be of unknown origin


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## Junglejags (Oct 26, 2013)

Serpentaria said:


> Hi yellowbeard, got any info on jungle axanthics? I've heard stories, but nothing solid about pure lines being bred here in Aus



Roger prove them out last season


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## DerekRoddy (Oct 29, 2013)

longqi said:


> Originally Posted by *yellowbeard*
> 
> From what I understand the Zebra morph was produce by Paul Harris (UK) in 2003 from a pairing of pure jungles (as they do have pure lines in the UK and EU as well as the USA), in 2008 Paul Harris proved it as co-dominate by producing the Super Zebra



Actually, Paul bought the first Zebra from a gentleman (in France I believe). It was produced by a pair of seemingly normal Jungle Carpets. That gentleman couldn't get the zebra to do anything so, it was sold to Paul. Paul then proved it out.

Cheers,
D


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## longqi (Oct 29, 2013)

boa said:


> So its basically the same as in Australian then? Jungles are only found in Queensland and it is illegal to take from the wild so any Jungles in captivity would have to be of unknown origin



That is incorrect because there have been several amnesties in Australia which allowed wild caught reptiles to be registered and kept by their owners
Some of the pure lines can be directly traced right back


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 29, 2013)

Actually this thread is about Zebra carpet python morphs.. Not opinions or information that is not relevant and that is off topic to the thread.. Feel free to start a threat on other subjects , But lets keep threads on topic.
Heres the facts from the breeder who proved out of the Zebra Jungle Carpet morph. Paul Harris.. 
UK Pythons - Investment quality pythons direct from the breeder!


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## yellowbeard (Oct 31, 2013)

DerekRoddy said:


> Actually, Paul bought the first Zebra from a gentleman (in France I believe). It was produced by a pair of seemingly normal Jungle Carpets. That gentleman couldn't get the zebra to do anything so, it was sold to Paul. Paul then proved it out.
> 
> Cheers,
> D



I stand corrected and have learnt some thing new, thanks.


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## treeofgreen (Oct 31, 2013)

Is anyone actually waiting in line to purchase a zebra? I just cant see why there is a big fuss... I think they just look like ugly jungles :S I'm not a morph hater, quite the oposite.

I guess these could get interesting combining the pattern(possible?)? Please advise


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## yellowbeard (Oct 31, 2013)

longqi said:


> That is incorrect because there have been several amnesties in Australia which allowed wild caught reptiles to be registered and kept by their owners
> Some of the pure lines can be directly traced right back



Those amnesties were not just for wild caught reptiles but were also for people keeping and breeding captive breed reptiles as well, I am unsure how may can be "traced right back" if you have to rely on word of mouth.

Also this is off topic so show us your pure Zebra Jungles.


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## hughesy (Oct 31, 2013)

Here is a pic of my pure zeb male


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## Amazing Amazon (Oct 31, 2013)

treeofgreen said:


> Is anyone actually waiting in line to purchase a zebra? I just cant see why there is a big fuss... I think they just look like ugly jungles :S I'm not a morph hater, quite the oposite.
> 
> I guess these could get interesting combining the pattern(possible?)? Please advise


Watch for the world record price drop! I have heard of some people asking 4K! Are there really people willing to spend that on them?


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## Junglejags (Nov 1, 2013)

Amazing Amazon said:


> Watch for the world record price drop! I have heard of some people asking 4K! Are there really people willing to spend that on them?



The old saying goes you get what you pay for, the higher quality and multi gene animals are still over 6k. Same as high quality and multi gene jags are still over 2k.
They were 5k last season for a run of the mill zebra so not much of a price drop, if the actually are being or going to be sold for 4k (a lot of rumours get thrown around) I see them holding there price alittle better then jags did because you can get a super form.


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## mungus (Nov 1, 2013)

Amazing Amazon said:


> Watch for the world record price drop! I have heard of some people asking 4K! Are there really people willing to spend that on them?



Read my post on page 4……
4k for quality animals was / is cheap.


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## deebo (Nov 8, 2013)

Not wanting to stir up a hornet's nest but took this dodgy pic a few weeks ago of my zeb female sitting on some nice eggs. They are looking like nice healthy eggs so far into incubation. Hopefully I get a few nice looking animals from this clutch.


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## yellowbeard (Dec 8, 2013)

Is anyone planning to breed and sell 100% Zebras this season, if so what is a ball park figure on the price


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## Amazing Amazon (Jan 30, 2014)

Junglejags said:


> The old saying goes you get what you pay for, the higher quality and multi gene animals are still over 6k. Same as high quality and multi gene jags are still over 2k.
> They were 5k last season for a run of the mill zebra so not much of a price drop, if the actually are being or going to be sold for 4k (a lot of rumours get thrown around) I see them holding there price alittle better then jags did because you can get a super form.


First ones of the season advertised for 2k!


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## Wild~Touch (Jan 31, 2014)

May I ask how one defines the different levels of quality in the Zebras ?

Is it the lineage or the appearance or what else ?

If I want to purchase a zebra what should I look for ?

Cheers
Sandee


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jan 31, 2014)

Nice work Deebo, well done.........


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## Jungle_Freak (Jan 31, 2014)

Good work Dave ...

I finally got a pair of pure jungle zebra morphs..

Both are about 400 grams in these pics at 13 months old.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 31, 2014)

I would not base my "Market Analysis" of this mutation, from a sponsored add on Facebook!


Amazing Amazon said:


> First ones of the season advertised for 2k!


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## Newhere (Jan 31, 2014)

Wild~Touch said:


> May I ask how one defines the different levels of quality in the Zebras ?
> 
> Is it the lineage or the appearance or what else ?
> 
> ...



This is a good question, maybe the quality zebras are the ones with normal tails that are proven breeders so no infertility issues.


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## BARRAMUNDI (Feb 4, 2014)

Nice Roger.......



Jungle_Freak said:


> Good work Dave ...
> 
> I finally got a pair of pure jungle zebra morphs..
> 
> Both are about 400 grams in these pics at 13 months old.


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## raycam01_au (Feb 4, 2014)

zebs


r


sexy


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