# Enrichment for reptiles



## Iguana (Jan 4, 2018)

Curious on what peoples opinions are on 'enrichment' (enhancing the quality of captive animal care by providing the stimuli for psychological and physiological well-being) for captive reptiles, do you think they benefit from it?
I feel lizards, especially monitors would, and i'm curious to hear if anyone uses 'enrichment' for their lizards, if so, what do you do?
I'd like to maybe try and get my Pink tongue exploring his tank a little more, I change the setup every once and awhile but he eventually seems to get 'bored'. 
Any ideas/opinions on enrichment?
Thanks!


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## Wally (Jan 4, 2018)

Outside time under the big light globe in the sky is what I like to do for my reptiles.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 4, 2018)

Turtles definitely need a captive environment as close to their wild environment as possible. Without that natural stimulation they become bored and destructive and will literally start to disassemble their aquarium from the inside out. They also need to be taken outside for sunlight a minimum of 5 times/week for 30 mins.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 4, 2018)

sounds like parrots. except parrots can fly and will destroy everything if pissed off badly, and make ungodly loud sounds.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 4, 2018)

Pythons are ambush predators that are happy to remain in a very small area provided they get heat and food.
I don't keep turtles and lizards for that reason and monitors especially need a rich, large environment.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 4, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> sounds like parrots. except parrots can fly and will destroy everything if pissed off badly, and make ungodly loud sounds.


Turtles will tear basking docks apart, pull heaters off the glass, rip the suction cups up, pull the strainer caps off filter intakes, bite at and tear the silicon beads off the inside of an aquarium, etc... it's basically just displacement rage. They need to be kept as natural as possible and highly stimulated with a lot of aquatic plants, assorted pieces of driftwood, river sand substrate and a lot of aquatic tank mates like snails, fish, shrimps, blackworms, yabbies, etc.
[doublepost=1515063889,1515063560][/doublepost]My indoor turtles are kept as naturally as possible in 600 litre heavily planted aquariums.




My pythons are kept in sistema tubs on paper towel with an empty paper towel cardboard tube hide and a ceramic bowl for a water dish. Simple but all they require to be happy.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 4, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> sounds like parrots. except parrots can fly and will destroy everything if pissed off badly, and make ungodly loud sounds.


I used to breed black cockatoos and still have a few, they trash their environment if bored, turn 4 inch thick perches into wood chips in a few hours, throw bowls on the ground and can chew holes in aviary mesh. 
I spend a lot of time in the bush collecting fresh banksia cones and hakea nuts which keep them busy plus I feed them lots of whole almonds, pecans and walnuts that take mental and physical effort to crack open. This also keeps them quiet.


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## MANNING (Jan 4, 2018)

Murph_BTK said:


> My juvi taken a drink on one of her _*many cage free nights*_. They love being out n about ... trick is finding them in the AM [emoji216]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In my opinion, Murph has this-


Iguana said:


> enhancing the quality of captive animal care by providing the stimuli for psychological and physiological well-being


 -covered perfectly


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 4, 2018)

Frogs probably aren't as demanding so I sort of go to a little trouble to give them a nice habitat with their basic needs met, a few vertical sticks for climbing, large area for soaking, a heated spot via a heat mat under one corner of the enclosure for them to regulate their body temp and a few large leafed plants to climb on and provide shelter.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 4, 2018)

Thought about getting mine an iphone or a ps4 but couldnt work out the hands free controllers.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 4, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Thought about getting mine an iphone or a ps4 but couldnt work out the hands free controllers.


iPhone X, tap it with their nose and facial recognition takes over, just have to train them to hiss hey Siri.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 4, 2018)

they can make faces with poop emojis too...also could message you when they're hungry and want the iphone 100


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 4, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Thought about getting mine an iphone or a ps4 but couldnt work out the hands free controllers.


Just get them a few ladders... They can play snakes&ladders...


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## Yellowtail (Jan 4, 2018)

They can look at photos of sexy snakes or cute rats.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 4, 2018)

horny ones could look at snakes shedding.


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## Buggster (Jan 4, 2018)

No wonder my Stimmie is always trying to scroll through my phone when I have him and my phone out! He wants his own, obviously...

And on a more serious note:
For my Stimmie, I do change things up and let him have a roam around every few days. Giving him a range of perches, ground hides, arboreal hides and fake plants keeps him entertained.

My Woma loves to burrow, and every few days I do destroy established tunnels so he is able to re burrow and make use of all the space.

Diamond I leave alone. He’s crazy xD


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## Waterrat (Jan 5, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> Pythons are ambush predators that are happy to remain in a very small area provided they get heat and food.



Sorry mate but I totally disagree. It would be a long-winded explanation why, but if you're interested in my opinion read this:
“Good behaviour! Behavioural enrichment in captive Green Tree Pythons” 2015 _Scales & Tails_, issue 41, May-2015


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## Yellowtail (Jan 5, 2018)

Waterrat said:


> Sorry mate but I totally disagree. It would be a long-winded explanation why, but if you're interested in my opinion read this:
> “Good behaviour! Behavioural enrichment in captive Green Tree Pythons” 2015 _Scales & Tails_, issue 41, May-2015


I remember reading that article back then. I made the reference to pythons not needing a lot of space if their needs were catered for in a small area mainly in comparison to lizards (especially monitors) and turtles. My adult pythons are all in large cages, 1200 - 1800 wide, with hides and perches, heating by CHE at one end, large water bowl at the other. I do use newspaper on the floor as it is the only practical substrate with a large collection. I do not like tubs as favoured by many with large collections, I hear their arguments but cannot accept that any animal will be fulfilled spending it's entire life in a sterile tub. My few GTP's are in large cages up to 1800 high with 2 perches plus a diagonal branch from the floor and one or two large water bowls. I still use newspaper but dress the environment up regularly with fresh branches and new perches as in photos enc. They move around a lot at night and I often feed them near the floor.
I do not enjoy the tropical climate you have so outdoor enclosures are not an option with these species, I do however keep my Diamonds in large aviaries that were formerly used for Black Cockatoos.


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 5, 2018)

Waterrat said:


> Sorry mate but I totally disagree. It would be a long-winded explanation why, but if you're interested in my opinion read this:
> “Good behaviour! Behavioural enrichment in captive Green Tree Pythons” 2015 _Scales & Tails_, issue 41, May-2015



Here's the link and article for those that don't have _Scales & Tails_. Good and interesting read.

*****​
*"Good Behaviour!

Behavioral enrichment in captive Green Tree Pythons.

Michael Cermak is a firm believer that a ‘happy’ snake is a healthy snake, and that it is advantageous to promote natural behavior in captivity.

Behavioral enrichment is nothing new – it has been implemented in zoos around the world for decades. However, it has rarely been applied to reptiles kept in private collections, particularly snakes. This may be because snakes’ behavioral patterns are not as complex as those of higher vertebrates, or perhaps due to the fact that they are more adaptable to captivity and less demanding, or simply because they normally don’t show any obvious signs of discomfort. When they do, it’s usually perceived to be as a result of health issues.

Why have I chosen Green Tree Pythons as the subject for this discussion? I’ve chosen this species because they are often perceived as lazy, ‘ornamental’ snakes that just sit on a perch looking pretty, and also because, after working with this beautiful species for ten years, I’ve gathered a little bit of knowledge about their behavior. As many of you know, I live in tropical north Queensland where climatic conditions are almost identical to those at Iron Range, the home of Australian native GTPs. This allows me to keep my snakes in outdoor enclosures where they are exposed to natural conditions such as temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, photo-period, UV and variations in weather (including rain, breeze, wind and the occasional cyclone). The enclosures are landscaped with natural materials and incorporated into the design of our tropical garden. The way I approach GTP keeping can be labelled ‘applied ecology’, and this gives the snakes the opportunity to behave in a manner that is as close as possible to the wild (with obvious limitations). This has allowed me to make some interesting observations.

Studies have suggested that female GTPs travel up to 65m in one night, and males up to 142m, although the averages are somewhat less. In any case, that’s a fair a bit of movement for a medium-sized python, and it needs to be emphasized that this occurs within a three-dimensional space (up into the trees as well as along the ground). While females have established home ranges of about 6.21ha, males don’t have stable home ranges at all; their movements conform to the ‘roaming strategy’. This fact aside, home ranges should not be confused with territories, although they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Territorial animals defend their territories by physical defense (combat), chemical marking (scenting, urinating, defecating), visual marking (claw marks, digging), audible warnings (roaring, calling, singing), threatening displays (puffing up, etc.), or frequent patrolling of the borders. None of this behavior is exhibited by snakes, because snakes are not territorial. Also, territorial animals tend to be evenly distributed across the landscape, while snakes have a random (sometimes clustered) distribution. In captivity, snakes sometimes strike at a keeper’s hand when the enclosure is open. People will often say the snake is ‘cage defensive’, whereas in fact the snake is protecting itself, not the cage.

So what does this tell us about wild GTPs? They are certainly not the lazy, ornamental snakes that some of their counterparts in captivity may suggest. In fact, they are quite an energetic species. Considering that they are the most arboreal of all Australian pythons, most of their movement consists of climbing and descending through complex, heterogeneous habitat – an activity that requires much higher energy output than travelling on flat ground. Why do GTPs (and most other species) move from A to B? There are a number of reasons: the search for food, suitable resting spots, potential mates or drinking water; as part of the process of thermoregulation; as a result of disturbance; predator avoidance, and possibly other reasons, none of which are relevant in captivity.

In contrast, and by default, captive GTPs are confined to very small boxes, usually with relatively homogeneous interiors. They are also regularly fed, and mates are only introduced when the breeder decides it is appropriate. We could surmise that they have no incentive to move much at all. Regular feeding, usually once per week, entrenches our captives into a constant mode of digestion – yet another factor that induces inactivity. I find it particularly interesting and concerning that wild yellow juvenile GTPs travel the same distances as adult males (they don’t have established home ranges, which is a normal strategy for juvenile dispersal), yet we typically keep hatch-lings in tiny containers for fear that they would feel insecure in larger enclosures. I wonder if that has any implications on their subsequent development?

The marked contrast between wild and captive GTPs begs a question; should we try to imitate natural conditions as much as possible, or should we not bother? After all, our ‘lazy slugs’ are OK; they eat, crap, slough and reproduce – what more do we want from them?

There will never be a consensus on this issue and I have no intention to preach one way or the other. I also realize that there are constraints such as lack of space, and maintenance and set-up costs associated with naturalistic enclosures, together with problems creating thermal gradients in cooler climatic regions. However, I would like to share with you a few ideas that I have been putting into practice over the years.

Snakes have their intrinsic instincts, but to trigger responses, they require stimuli. While I would not advocate attempting to simulate a natural disaster or a predator chase in an enclosure, there are less dramatic ways in which behavioral enrichment can be achieved with relatively little effort:
*

*Making minor or major changes to the enclosure’s interior by either rearranging the ‘furniture’ or introducing new items. Rearranging can be undertaken during ‘big clean ups’ and adding items can be as easy and simple as placing a grass tussock, log, branch or live plant material into the enclosure at any time. Snakes instinctively investigate new objects, smells and shapes, resulting in increased activity.*
*Shifting the water bowl to a different part of the floor from time to time, provided this is permitted by the arrangement of the enclosure.*
*Frequently airing the enclosure – open windows and doors in the room, as well as the enclosure itself. Remember to keep a close eye on the inhabitants!*
*Feeding infrequently and at different times, and occasionally using different techniques; for example, using tongs, leaving (dead) prey in the enclosure (either on the floor or draped over a branch), teasing, etc.*
*Taking your GTPs outside (weather permitting) and letting them climb.*
*Putting slough from a different snake into the enclosure. This usually heightens curiosity, particularly in males.*
*Changing diet from time to time (mice, rats, chicks).*
*In captivity GTPs, like any other snakes, become creatures of habit after a while and when deprived of the opportunity to exercise their natural behavior and express their instincts, their lives become stereotypical. Anyone who has seen big cats pacing along the fence in a zoo or elephants rocking from side to side would recognize this as being characteristic of boredom. Unfortunately, snakes don’t give such signs of boredom and so it’s easy to assume that they don’t suffer from this condition. Is it possible that diminished activity in captive snakes is, in itself, symptomatic of boredom?

GTPs are a nocturnal species and we should not place any behavioral demands on them during the day – that includes handling. One thing that’s guaranteed to evoke a lot of exercise in GTPs is the opportunity to climb. To make such provision requires tall enclosures with several horizontal – but also some vertical – branches of different thicknesses. GTPs are canopy dwellers, well-adapted to climbing, and in my opinion not giving them the opportunity to climb is the same as keeping terrestrial species in tall cages full of branches and with limited floor space. My enclosures are spacious and landscaped, with ample room for the snakes to roam. Significantly, I’ve noticed that none of my GTPs kept outside ever hang their tails and they have never been constipated. Yet, if I bring them indoors, into standard enclosures, they often manifest these problems.

Keeping and breeding GTPs has come a long way in recent years, with some astonishing advancements, but it seems to me that the style of keeping in this hobby is departing further and further from nature, with little regard for the snakes’ well-being. This is probably because a lot of reptile keepers perceive and treat their snakes as pets rather than wild animals, and a common explanation is that, ‘it was born in captivity, so it’s not wild’. That’s true, but natural instincts remain for generations (if not forever) in snakes, and my counterargument would be that captive-born snakes will survive in the wild if released. I have seen and handled long-term captives that felt like flaccid sausages of gross diameter and I have also seen wild GTPs that looked almost emaciated in comparison, but were fit to climb and travel long distances. I have no doubt that the wild snakes are also fitter in the Darwinian sense. I trust my snakes are ‘enjoying’ the conditions they are kept in; besides conveying considerable benefits to the animals concerned, providing behavioral enrichment also stimulates my interest beyond the day-to-day keeping and breeding."*


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## Harry89 (Jan 5, 2018)

I remember having this discussion on here somewhere before I purchased my little Roughie and was essentially told I'm an idiot, all because I didn't want him in a small plastic box. He has lots of places to roam and perch and has always been offered plenty of hides, hell he loves hanging out in a little hessian hammock I made up initially when the leaf insects were in there to collect their droppings!

Like any animal, I feel they need more than four walls and a bowl. Everything is going back to the 'closer to nature' feel and really, that should be encouraged. I change up his logs and pot plants on occasion and often have to rummage around to find him as he looks for different places to curl up during the day and since I put the fake rock wall in the back he has been super active at night, I think they actually prefer to have something more stimulating. I do it for all my animals, reptiles and bugs alike, there is nothing wrong with trying to put in some effort to be a little humane, so I feel anyway...


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## Waterrat (Jan 5, 2018)

Couldn't agree more Harry89. For some strange reason, many people believe that captive bred reptiles are somehow detached from nature. They never loose their natural instincts. 
Oshkii, thanks for posting up the article.


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 5, 2018)

I personally like naturalistic enclosures. Sure they're more work, but they look nicer, and you get to see more interesting behaviours as you watch the lizards and snakes interact with their environment. I do it as much for my own enjoyment as for the reptiles. 

Just about every week I take my snakes outside for some sun, a change of scenery, and to encourage them to defecate outside. These trips usually take an hour or so. I'm not sure whether they enjoy it or not, but they certainly like to check everything out. I've noticed that they seem to prefer drinking from the pond, in comparison to their water bowls. Sometimes they actively swim for 20+ minutes. It's always fun watching them.


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## Iguana (Jan 5, 2018)

Interesting to hear everyone's opinions and stories! Thanks for sharing the article @Oshkii it's given me plenty of ideas. I think naturalistic enclosure are the way to go too, I'm looking at making my PTS tank bioactive/live planted. Great picture! Certainly looks like it enjoys the pond. 
Amazing setup @Aussiepride83 those would be very happy turtles I imagine! Or a turtles equivalent of happy lol, seems they are more complex reptiles than I thought, to be destructive when board. 
@Yellowtail I agree with your stance on tubs, I expected someone might mention it sometime. Can't see how a reptile would benefit in a small tub over a larger tank. I also like your GTP setup, seeing them in a large tank is very refreshing! 
I agree with the 'closer to nature' idea @Harry89 , not only does it look fantastic, but provides so much stimulation for the animal. Would love to see a pic of your setup for him!


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 5, 2018)

wish more people bred springtails/isopods here


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 5, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> I used to breed black cockatoos and still have a few, they trash their environment if bored, turn 4 inch thick perches into wood chips in a few hours, throw bowls on the ground and can chew holes in aviary mesh.
> I spend a lot of time in the bush collecting fresh banksia cones and hakea nuts which keep them busy plus I feed them lots of whole almonds, pecans and walnuts that take mental and physical effort to crack open. This also keeps them quiet.


haha they are good at chewing,we had a galah that used to chew through the bird wire and sit on the kitchen windowsill and swear at my wife,( she didn't trust the galah and the galah didn't like her much)
[doublepost=1515150352,1515150136][/doublepost]


Aussiepride83 said:


> Turtles will tear basking docks apart, pull heaters off the glass, rip the suction cups up, pull the strainer caps off filter intakes, bite at and tear the silicon beads off the inside of an aquarium, etc... it's basically just displacement rage. They need to be kept as natural as possible and highly stimulated with a lot of aquatic plants, assorted pieces of driftwood, river sand substrate and a lot of aquatic tank mates like snails, fish, shrimps, blackworms, yabbies, etc.
> [doublepost=1515063889,1515063560][/doublepost]My indoor turtles are kept as naturally as possible in 600 litre heavily planted aquariums.
> View attachment 322639
> View attachment 322640
> ...


you think they are happy ,but are they???? Why do you think your turtles are any different to your snakes?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 5, 2018)

dragonlover1 said:


> you think they are happy ,but are they????


Yeah... I'd put $$ on it... they certainly wouldn't be doing this otherwise.



If the pythons weren't happy, they'd.not be eating and behaving like normal pythons.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 5, 2018)

i feel even with snakes give as much space as possible, the common misconseption is they do badly with lots of space, but with lots of hides too are still very active, less so pythons, but that applies to elapids and colubrids for sure.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 5, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Yeah... I'd put $$ on it... they certainly wouldn't be doing this otherwise.
> View attachment 322665


I am not discounting their happiness but just wanted to point out that animals don't breed because they are happy, they breed out of necessity and on instinct. Us humans and dolphins most certainly do it because we are happy, amongst other reasons.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 5, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> I am not discounting their happiness but just wanted to point out that animals don't breed because they are happy, they breed out of necessity and on instinct. Us humans and dolphins most certainly do it because we are happy, amongst other reasons.


Doesn't work like that with turtles. If it was that easy, none of them.would be endangered. Breeding snakes would be simple by comparison, breeding turtles is far more challenging, in the wild, they can go for a decade and not breed at all, necessary for survival or not. If those turtles weren't happy, they wouldn't even be looking at one another. Manning River turtles are critically endangered. Breeding them is no simple task.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 5, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Doesn't work like that with turtles. If it was that easy, none of them.would be endangered. Breeding snakes would be simple by comparison, breeding turtles is far more challenging, in the wild, they can go for a decade and not breed at all, necessary for survival or not.


Wouldn't that be more to do with the lack of suitable mates rather than happiness?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 5, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Wouldn't that be more to do with the lack of suitable mates rather than happiness?


No. More to do with conditions. If their needs aren't met, breeding isn't a priority for them.


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 5, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Doesn't work like that with turtles. If it was that easy, none of them.would be endangered. Breeding snakes would be simple by comparison, breeding turtles is far more challenging, in the wild, they can go for a decade and not breed at all, necessary for survival or not. If those turtles weren't happy, they wouldn't even be looking at one another. Manning River turtles are critically endangered. Breeding them is no simple task.


you're not getting the point Kev,you give your turtles all the love in the world but think snakes and lizards can just cop second rate stuff,where is the difference?All reptiles need to be given the same treatment.If we can't give them all the love we shouldn't keep them at all


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 5, 2018)

dragonlover1 said:


> you're not getting the point Kev,you give your turtles all the love in the world but think snakes can just cop second rate stuff,where is the difference?All reptiles need to be given the same treatment.If we can't give them all the love we shouldn't keep them at all


While my 2 pythons are only barely 50-60cm I see no need for a lavish setup. When I feel they've outgrown their current accommdation and are reaching maturity and going to be roaming and wandering and wanting to explore the big wide yonder... I'll give them something more suitable... while they're still wee little tapeworms just eating and hiding and pooping (repeat) I'm satisfied that they're tubs are keeping them happy. For now.
[doublepost=1515152135,1515152037][/doublepost]I don't have an adult spotted python and adult Stimsons crammed into a shoebox sized container. I'm assuming that's what you're thinking? Lol


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 5, 2018)

i remember when i was younger and would watch brian/snakebitesTV keep almost all his animals in small racks(even his leopard geckos, no light anything) and thought that snakes were thriving in such conditions, he kept retics in 8 foot enclosures, 4-5 foot gators in kiddy pools, but over time my opinion has changed, and i hate the idea of keeping any animal in a very small space at all unless helping them thrive, if i don't have enough space to keep animals in large-ish enclosures i won't get the animal, simple, nor do i believe anyone should, just my 2cents on the topic.


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## Wally (Jan 5, 2018)

The whole tubs/enclosures debate has been thrashed on here over the years with everyone having strong opinions one way or the other.

My conclusion is that they'll survive in either if they're looked after correctly. What one prefers to look at is the issue.


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 5, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> While my 2 pythons are only barely 50-60cm I see no need for a lavish setup. When I feel they've outgrown their current accommdation and are reaching maturity and going to be roaming and wandering and wanting to explore the big wide yonder... I'll give them something more suitable... while they're still wee little tapeworms just eating and hiding and pooping (repeat) I'm satisfied that they're tubs are keeping them happy. For now.
> [doublepost=1515152135,1515152037][/doublepost]I don't have an adult spotted python and adult Stimsons crammed into a shoebox sized container. I'm assuming that's what you're thinking? Lol


NO I know your pythons are little buggers,it's your attitude I'm referring to.you seem to think snakes need no enrichment but turtles need heaps of cuddly feely time!! All reptiles deserve enrichment.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 5, 2018)

dragonlover1 said:


> NO I know your pythons are little buggers,it's your attitude I'm referring to.you seem to think snakes need no enrichment but turtles need heaps of cuddly feely time!! All reptiles deserve enrichment.


Turtles don't need any cuddly feely time at All, no turtle likes to be handled whatsoever. You always see people on here wanting to know about handling their snakes, when, how long for, etc... how many people ask about handling turtles?? Drop a snake, no big deal...drop a turtle... well you either have a broken foot or a broken turtle... also, Let a few turtles grab you and you'll soon forget all about snake bites. Lol

Snakes may well need enrichment but snakes by nature are extremely paranoid creatures and seek security more than anything... a turtle carries its security on its back... big difference. My attitude is fine.. my turtle's needs are met as are my python's... i take my snakes out into the sun a couple of times a week for a crawl around while the turtles bask.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Turtles don't need any cuddly feely time at All, no turtle likes to be handled whatsoever. You always see people on here wanting to know about handling their snakes, when, how long for, etc... how many people ask about handling turtles?? Drop a snake, no big deal...drop a turtle... well you either have a broken foot or a broken turtle... also, Let a few turtles grab you and you'll soon forget all about snake bites. Lol
> 
> Snakes may well need enrichment but snakes by nature are extremely paranoid creatures and seek security more than anything... a turtle carries its security on its back... big difference. My attitude is fine.. my turtle's needs are met as are my python's... i take my snakes out into the sun a couple of times a week for a crawl around while the turtles bask.


I think it is more the other way around in regard to being paranoid and seeking security. A basking turtle will quickly retreat into the water at the first sign of human movement. A python on the otherhand will bask until disturbed.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> I think it is more the other way around in regard to being paranoid and seeking security. A basking turtle will quickly retreat into the water at the first sign of human movement. A python on the otherhand will bask until disturbed.



Essentially you are saying the same thing about both.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 6, 2018)

Wally said:


> Essentially you are saying the same thing about both.


 no, disturbed as in the human is very close to the point where the human could easily attack, etc, then they slither off.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

Imported_tuatara said:


> no, disturbed as in the human is very close to the point where the human could easily attack, etc, then they slither off.



I understand the point Scutellatus was making. I thought it was lost a little in translation.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> I think it is more the other way around in regard to being paranoid and seeking security. A basking turtle will quickly retreat into the water at the first sign of human movement. A python on the otherhand will bask until disturbed.


Not even a relevant comparison...
Snakes are far more paranoid than turtles mate. Turtles for one are true aquatic reptiles, basking on land for them is essential yet the most dangerous thing they can do in their life. Until you've encountered them in their natural habitat and dived with turtles underwater, you can't fully understand how bold they are. Snakes on the other hand rely on the chance of not being seen if remaining perfectly still until the last minute when camouflage has failed them, then it's either flee or fight.
A turtle underwater will readily approach and investigate a diver or sit and observe you as you swim past, over, around, whatever. I've many photos of wild turtles where I've put cameras in their faces and snapped a photograph of them, turtles don't get into a strike pose, hiss, get all defensive or flee when in their natural habitat, they've no need to, they have security 24/7 A turtle on land still has it's shell, so why does it flee when on land at the first sign of movement?? Because if it's prevented from entering the water, turned over, carried off into the scrub and injured, etc, it will die. Simple.

A turtle has webbed feet like a duck, useless for outrunning a predator on land, a shell on land becomes a cumbersome burden... In the water, a turtle becomes a weightless turbo powered streamlined jet. Try catching a turtle in open water without fins in a swimming contest. That's why they flee when disturbed while basking, to even the odds.

Another point, a turtle won't just automatically flee when approached, it all depends on the situation. I'm able to approach basking turtles (because I understand their behaviour) to within a couple of meters, if you don't make threatening body language or eye contact with them they don't feel threatened. Another thing you should never do is point at turtles, whilst above or below water, pointing at a turtle will cause it to flee, In the below photo I'm pointing at the basking turtles *but* not looking at them. They remained perfectly still. Watchful and wary but they didn't flee.






I stood motionless here for 45 minutes in the sun observing their behaviour. During that time another turtle hauled out and proceeded to bask and watch me. Notice the deliberate positioning of the 3rd turtle, it's facing the opposite direction, they do this purposely to cover all angles of approach from land. If one flees into the water, they all flee, instantly.


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## GBWhite (Jan 6, 2018)

As usual I've been following this post and find the discussion with everyone voicing their opinions very interesting. Considering my understanding of how the reptilian brain works I can't help but feel anthropomorphism (placing human attributes into animal behaviour) plays a huge role in our decisions toward the manner in which reptiles are kept in captivity.

It must be remember that animals (including reptiles) do not perceive time in a manner that is the same as humans. We contemplate the actions and decisions of our past and envision our actions in the future (episodic memory), whereby animals live in the present. They have what is referred to as a circadian oscillator which keeps track of their circadian cycles that are based on external clues such as temperature, day length, moon phases and celestial patterns which dictate activities such as sleep, reproducion, hibernation etc.

To address the original question, "'Do captive reptiles benefit from providing them with enrichment' (enhancing the quality of captive animal care by providing the stimuli for psychological and physiological well-being)? Personally, in regard to reptiles I'm not convinced (yet) that it plays that big a role.

Studies have proven that it is beneficial to higher order animals that are held in captivity but is it relevant to lower order animals such as captive held reptiles? Firstly I'd have to ask that given reptiles are primitive creatures with a primitive brain that is only concerned with survival, (i.e. shelter, food, water, reproduction, flight or fight responses) do they suffer from psychological conditions and boredom? Personally, unlike humans and other higher order animals, I doubt if they have the mental capacity to suffer from a psychological condition, stress or understand boredom. In fact considering physiological conditions contribute to chemicals released in a fight or flight response and that captive reptiles rarely if ever encounter the need to exercise the option I believe that it could be assumed that they don't suffer from stress at all. If it was the case that reptiles suffered from psychological conditions and stress as a result of physiological conditions couldn't it be assumed that it would be more prevalent in the wild state due to the continuous threat of predation and on-going concern with other survival factors? 

I have no doubt that providing an enriched captive environment that emulates a reptile's natural environment allows the reptile to undertake activities conducive to those carried out in the wild state, but, do they need it to live contentedly in captivity? Given that when provided with the basic needs, it is obvious that those kept without the provision of a natural environment appear to survive and live long healthy lives it only leads me to ask if it is a necessity for their overall wellbeing or does it fall under a conscious category that allows the keeper the opportunity to feel more positive in the fact that they are keeping a native animal? Captive reptiles don't have the mental ability to sit around thinking..."I wish my cage had a more stimulating environment" or "I wonder what the outside world is like" or "I wish I had other things to do". Nor do they need it. As mentioned previously, reptiles do not lose their natural instincts when bred or held in captivity, so all things considered possessing the ability to contemplate on the past or envision the future could prove detrimental to a reptile's survival by wasting time with such thoughts as in the wild it would leave them open to being eaten and/or effect their time spent looking for mates.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts and I'd be interested to know what others think about the subject.

George.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 6, 2018)

@Aussiepride83 
I am not convinced mate. I think you are giving turtles more credit in the thinking department than they really do have. When they scurry back into the water that is the same 'fight or flight moment' that a snake has and all animals, including us, use. If you pick them up they will try to bite or flee. Large wild pythons will usually accept handling without issue, no striking, hissing or any other threat postures.
They may be curious underwater but that can be attributed to our size and them not seeing us as a threat because most large animals are cumbersome in the water.
In regard to those photos, they look like they are taken in a reserve or someones private pond where they are regularly exposed to humans which will obviously reduce their perceived threat level and allow you to get as close as you have.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Sorry mate but you're incorrect when it comes to turtles. Turtles in the water are far different than when out of the water. You're comparing Apples and oranges. Almost every turtle wild or domestic apart from ELN will not become defensive and bite or retract when picked up by a human. They will simply observe you like so....


If you proceed to antagonize it, and piss it off, then you'll get bitten. Snakes are far more paranoid and insecure than turtles and is why snakes will thrive in a small.confined space that meets all their needs whereas turtles will not. That is why my turtle enclosures are elaborate natural and realistic looking and my snakes reside in tubs... they're happy that way. Because their paranoia and insecurities are eliminated.
Snakes don't carry their security around with them like turtles do, they have a very limited line of defence and will skulk away before being detected.


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## GBWhite (Jan 6, 2018)

Yeah, sorry Kev but I have to disagree with you you too mate. It might well be the way they are approached but I've spent plenty of time diving for turtles just for fun and never had the same experience where a turtle has become inquisitive enough to check me out, even when I haven't been trying to be threatening toward them they've always taken off to get away or taken to cover. On many occasions I've spent hours watching them from a river bank and from what I've seen they aren't any different to other reptiles in regard to their flight and fight response.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 6, 2018)

I'v been keeping now for 11 years and have never had a snake in a tub until recently when I purchased a Green Tree Python and that is only so I can control the humidity while young. None of my snakes have ever shown any paranoid or insecure actions, it hasn't mattered whether they have been in large eclosures. In fact a few of them have come from breeders who use tubs and the snakes have never had an issue with large enclosures, always fed straight away, happy to sit out of their hides and enjoy their space. Almost as if the snake is saying that's better somewhere to explore and move about.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> Yeah, sorry Kev but I have to disagree with you you too mate. It might well be the way they are approached but I've spent plenty of time diving for turtles just for fun and never had the same experience where a turtle has become inquisitive enough to check me out, even when I haven't been trying to be threatening toward them they've always taken off to get away or taken to cover. On many occasions I've spent hours watching them from a river bank and from what I've seen they aren't any different to other reptiles in regard to their flight and fight response.


I have no doubt dived more systems for more turtles across this country than what you have and it'd be safe to say that my experiences overall with turtles in the wild trumps yours... No disrespect but I have to pretty much disregard your opinion here entirely as I've dived with more wild turtles more times than you've had breakfast.




[doublepost=1515199801,1515199629][/doublepost]


Scutellatus said:


> I'v been keeping now for 11 years and have never had a snake in a tub until recently when I purchased a Green Tree Python and that is only so I can control the humidity while young. None of my snakes have ever shown any paranoid or insecure actions, it hasn't mattered whether they have been in large eclosures. In fact a few of them have come from breeders who use tubs and the snakes have never had an issue with large enclosures, always fed straight away, happy to sit out of their hides and enjoy their space. Almost as if the snake is saying that's better somewhere to explore and move about.


That's fine, no doubt they do fine in a large enclosure where their needs are met, they do just as fine however in small ones too... that's all this is about. And like wally said, this subject has been whipped to death and back on this forum before. Snakes can live happily in an appropriately sized tub enclosure OR a cage the size of a master bedroom. Either way, whatever works works. Tubs work for my snakes. For now.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Sorry mate but you're incorrect when it comes to turtles. Turtles in the water are far different than when out of the water. You're comparing Apples and oranges. Almost every turtle wild or domestic apart from ELN will not become defensive and bite or retract when picked up by a human. They will simply observe you like so....
> View attachment 322669
> 
> If you proceed to antagonize it, and piss it off, then you'll get bitten. Snakes are far more paranoid and insecure than turtles and is why snakes will thrive in a small.confined space that meets all their needs whereas turtles will not. That is why my turtle enclosures are elaborate natural and realistic looking and my snakes reside in tubs... they're happy that way. Because their paranoia and insecurities are eliminated.
> Snakes don't carry their security around with them like turtles do, they have a very limited line of defence and will skulk away before being detected.


Every wild turtle I have handled has the initial reaction of opening their mouth to bite and scratch with their feet in an attempt to get away. After a time they may realise I am not a threat and not try to bite but that is the same with the majority of smaller animals.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Every wild turtle I have handled has the initial reaction of opening their mouth to bite and scratch with their feet in an attempt to get away. After a time they may realise I am not a threat amd not try to bite but that is the same with the majority of smaller animals.


No fleeing no biting. Reckon I've handled a few more turtles than you in my time.


Wild expansa


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## Scutellatus (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> I have no doubt dived more systems for more turtles across this country than what you have and it'd be safe to say that my experiences overall with turtles in the wild trumps yours... No disrespect but I have to pretty much disregard your opinion here entirely as I've dived with more wild turtles more times than you've had breakfast.
> View attachment 322670
> 
> View attachment 322671
> ...


Wow! That is a pretty bold statememt toward George there Kev. Considering his age and involvement in reptiles for the years he has had, I think his experience may trump yours by about 30 years.


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## Bl69aze (Jan 6, 2018)

Who wouldn’t want to flee from @Scutellatus .

All jokes aside, I use a tiny bit of cat food and (very tiny amounts) and smear it in parts of enclosure for snake to smell and he gets intrigued by it, checks every spot out and then goes back to whatever he was doing, and I get rid of the catfood


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Wow! That is a pretty bold statememt toward George there Kev. Considering his age and involvement in reptiles for the years he has had, I think his experience may trump yours by about 30 years.


With snakes no doubt... I bet my feet have been wet chasing turtles many more times in many more locations.


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## Bl69aze (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> No fleeing no biting. Reckon I've handled a few more turtles than you in my time.
> View attachment 322672
> 
> Wild expansa
> View attachment 322673


Regarding the “no fleeing” statement, all turtles I’ve been involved in for conservation projects aren’t too fond of being touched by us and will jet off to find a log under the water to hide under.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

Let's not get into who can wet a patch of grass the furthest away.

It's been an interesting conversation.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Have Dived with, caught and handled more wild turtles than anyone here and I can tell you, they won't flee or bite as some people think they do... Do these guys look afraid? No.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

Kev why don't you start a dedicated turtle thread. You have strong passion for them and plenty to share.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

And again, not even retracting. Not afraid of humans. 


[doublepost=1515201409,1515201320][/doublepost]


Wally said:


> Kev why don't you start a dedicated turtle thread. You have strong passion for them and plenty to share.


G'day mate, never mind, it's just some people saying that they madly flee for cover etc when it's not the case. Anyway, I've got a mob here from Solarhart putting 22 more solar panels on my roof, I've gotta get going. 

Have a good one.


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## GBWhite (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> I have no doubt dived more systems for more turtles across this country than what you have and it'd be safe to say that my experiences overall with turtles in the wild trumps yours... No disrespect but I have to pretty much disregard your opinion here entirely as I've dived with more wild turtles more times than you've had breakfast.
> View attachment 322670
> 
> View attachment 322671



Get a little toey don't we when someone posts a difference of opinion based on observation and/or experience. Isn't there a saying that goes something like "criticism and difference of opinion should be taken constructively"?

FYI, my interest in reptiles is not limited to snakes. It stretches across the entire spectrum however my main interest is observation of wild animals. 

You probably have dived with more turtles than I've had breakfasts my friend, however you're not the only person I know that has an interest in turtles and from those who I know that are involved in studying freshwater turtles in the wild their experience with them is not much different to mine. Both the first two photos you've put up indicate to me turtles that are displaying a response to a perceived threat. First one is seeking a refuge and the second one is ready to make an escape.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Oh dear you are making some assumptions now... Ok mate think what you like it's cool. I have to run, work to be done.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> And again, not even retracting. Not afraid of humans.
> View attachment 322676
> 
> [doublepost=1515201409,1515201320][/doublepost]
> ...


Come on mate, it's not like you calmly walked up and picked that guy up off the rock or swam up and grabbed it while it swam toward you. It would have been underwater probably sitting on the bottom, thinking it is camouflaged, after seeing you enter the water and you swam down to get it. Either that or had to swim after it to catch it. They have the same fight or flight as any other animal. It is hardwired and not something that can be switched off unless exposed to a 'threat' for long enough to realise there is no threat.


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 6, 2018)

Not sure if this is numerically correct, but you get the picture.


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 6, 2018)

My last comment on this question; I just put my little Antaresia childreni in a new enclosure and what does he do?
A. He goes exploring


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

I just cleaned my two Anteresias tubs and they're both exploring.
[doublepost=1515207079,1515206871][/doublepost]


Scutellatus said:


> Come on mate, it's not like you calmly walked up and picked that guy up off the rock or swam up and grabbed it while it swam toward you. It would have been underwater probably sitting on the bottom, thinking it is camouflaged, after seeing you enter the water and you swam down to get it. Either that or had to swim after it to catch it. They have the same fight or flight as any other animal. It is hardwired and not something that can be switched off unless exposed to a 'threat' for long enough to realise there is no threat.


Ok mate, lol you say probably a lot, you probably definitely don't know what you're talking about but that's just probably my opinion ay.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

Enrichment?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Wally said:


> Enrichment?


Entanglement.


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## Murph_BTK (Jan 6, 2018)

My head hurts what was the thread name again [emoji6]

Instagram: murph_BTK


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## Bl69aze (Jan 6, 2018)

@Aussiepride83 why are u getting mad at people assuming when you’re the one assuming you know more about turtles than anyone on these forums .

I’d love to see a turtle swimming towards you with open arms to the thought of a “threat” 100x* their size picking them up for a selfie


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## Waterrat (Jan 6, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> As usual I've been following this post and find the discussion with everyone voicing their opinions very interesting. Considering my understanding of how the reptilian brain works I can't help but feel anthropocentrism (placing human attributes into animal behaviour) plays a huge role in our decisions toward the manner in which reptiles are kept in captivity.
> 
> It must be remember that animals (including reptiles) do not perceive time in a manner that is the same as humans. We contemplate the actions and decisions of our past and envision our actions in the future (episodic memory), whereby animals live in the present. They have what is referred to as a circadian oscillator which keeps track of their circadian cycles that are based on external clues such as temperature, day length, moon phases and celestial patterns which dictate activities such as sleep, reproducion, hibernation etc.
> 
> ...




George, my take on the issue is - enrichment (frequent change of interior, fresh air, fresh water, feeding techniques, etc.) encourages the inhabitant to move around. That, in my opinion is beneficial if nothing else. Naturalistic enclosures also give the owner ample opportunities to observe and learn about the species' behaviour, which is beneficial to the keeper. All in all, the benefits outweigh the negatives, which in my opinion is only the time spent setting up and maintaining the enclosures. When I pick up my GTPs, I can feel the muscle tone, when I pick up GTPs kept in a box with one perch and nothing else, they feel like floppy, fatty sausages. 

cheers
Michael


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## Neil j (Jan 6, 2018)

I’ve only got one perch for 2 year old male Aussie gtp but excited about getting him a second glass enclosure and really doing it up. I try not to feed him too much I wait a couple of days after a def. The scales and tails article is a great read I will read again.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 6, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> As usual I've been following this post and find the discussion with everyone voicing their opinions very interesting. Considering my understanding of how the reptilian brain works I can't help but feel anthropocentrism (placing human attributes into animal behaviour) plays a huge role in our decisions toward the manner in which reptiles are kept in captivity.
> 
> It must be remember that animals (including reptiles) do not perceive time in a manner that is the same as humans. We contemplate the actions and decisions of our past and envision our actions in the future (episodic memory), whereby animals live in the present. They have what is referred to as a circadian oscillator which keeps track of their circadian cycles that are based on external clues such as temperature, day length, moon phases and celestial patterns which dictate activities such as sleep, reproducion, hibernation etc.
> 
> ...


George, you have covered this well and as mentioned briefly earlier I have had a lot of experience with large parrots, mostly red tailed and yellow tailed black cockatoos. They definitely have a high level of intelligence and you have to provide a rich environment and social engagement or you will end up with a very screwed up bird, especially with hand raised birds that have not benefited from the 18 mth raising and education normally provided by the parents.
I currently have a number of Diamond pythons housed in 2 large (2.4 x 7.0 x 2.4 aviaries that formerly housed black cockatoos. I landscaped them with multiple branches, rock ledges, several hides in different locations including underground, and I move shadecloth covering throughout the year to provide more or less sun. The interesting result is that they have their favourite places to bask before returning to hides and they do use the underground areas in very hot weather but rarely climb any of the multitude of branches. (I have tried fresh branches with leaves) They could be in an aviary a quarter the size without limiting their behaviour. The only intelligence they display is I can tap on the door and they will come out to be fed but that is probably more scent than vibration and my snakes in normal indoor enclosures do the same thing.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> @Aussiepride83 why are u getting mad at people assuming when you’re the one assuming you know more about turtles than anyone on these forums .
> 
> I’d love to see a turtle swimming towards you with open arms to the thought of a “threat” 100x* their size picking them up for a selfie


How many turtles have you dived with?? ... I'll give you a few minutes to count them on your fingers and toes...


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## Bl69aze (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> How many turtles have you dived with?? ... I'll give you a few minutes to count them on your fingers and toes...


Like 6 species, 1 of them being critically endangered.
Never said I was an expert on turtles, in fact I know almost nothing about them.

But you act like you are the turtle overlord and know everything, while everyone else must be wrong


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Like 6 species, 1 of them being critically endangered.
> Never said I was an expert on turtles, in fact I know almost nothing about them.
> 
> But you act like you are the turtle overlord and know everything, while everyone else must be wrong


No, I just have more experience with them and think that my opinion counts for something in this field. But either way you can take it or leave it, it's fine with me. I stand by my opinion that snakes are far more paranoid and insecure than turtles.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

I'm starting to get dizzy peeps.


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## kankryb (Jan 6, 2018)

Yes, me too
Get back on trak, please


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## Yellowtail (Jan 6, 2018)

Talking about enrichment for intelligent animals. She gets nervous as it gets dark and doesn't feel safe on her cage or adjacent perches which are just inside a big glass door so she flies off to a safe place, always lands on top of my inkjet printer, I've tried for years to get her to land somewhere else, built special perch stands right next to it but she likes the top of the printer, likes to peck at the touch controls and send the printer into a frenzy. I started covering the printer but she just threw the cover on the floor so now I cover that with newspaper which she shreds then throws the cover on the floor so she can peck the buttons.


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## kankryb (Jan 6, 2018)

In Denmark by law mouse and rat breeders must suply a toy, a block of wood, in each tub so they can climb and run around it.


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## Bl69aze (Jan 6, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> Talking about enrichment for intelligent animals. She gets nervous as it gets dark and doesn't feel safe on her cage or adjacent perches which are just inside a big glass door so she flies off to a safe place, always lands on top of my inkjet printer, I've tried for years to get her to land somewhere else, built special perch stands right next to it but she likes the top of the printer, likes to peck at the touch controls and send the printer into a frenzy. I started covering the printer but she just threw the cover on the floor so now I cover that with newspaper which she shreds then throws the cover on the floor so she can peck the buttons.
> 
> View attachment 322678


Next you gotta tie it up with rope so she has to untie it to get the paper to get the cover to get to the buttons


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 6, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> No, I just have more experience with them and think that my opinion counts for something in this field. But either way you can take it or leave it, it's fine with me. I stand by my opinion that snakes are far more paranoid and insecure than turtles.


You may have more experience with turtles than anyone here,we wont argue with that,but when you put sh1T on on people like George it just shows your immaturity.George has been around reptiles and animals in general longer than you have been alive so to claim you have more experience just shows what a wanker you are,Go back to your turtle forum and leave the reptile forums to people who like reptiles,I have only been active in reptile forums for about 15 years and wouldn't dare tell someone like George he was wrong.I thought all the dickheads had left us alone but obviously I was mistaken.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

Yup......

One more spin.

All aboard... ..


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

dragonlover1 said:


> You may have more experience with turtles than anyone here,we wont argue with that,but when you put sh1T on on people like George it just shows your immaturity.George has been around reptiles and animals in general longer than you have been alive so to claim you have more experience just shows what a wanker you are,Go back to your turtle forum and leave the reptile forums to people who like reptiles,I have only been active in reptile forums for about 15 years and wouldn't dare tell someone like George he was wrong.I thought all the dickheads had left us alone but obviously I was mistaken.


Whatever mate, name calling shows how immature you are and how little you know. George may know a lot about many reptiles but when it comes to turtles, specifically, I'm sorry but I've got him covered. Take it or leave it... simple. George said he disagreed with me and that's fine, he's entitled to and he's a big boy and doesn't need you playing big brother. But thanks for the laughs anyway.
You have provided me with some enrichment... lol


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## Rob (Jan 6, 2018)

Oh golly gee indeed! Wally's ride is now closed. Lets not send this thread down the same path!


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 6, 2018)

Guys,
Just like to point out this awesome feature called *'ignore'*
I use it on those members who I find really boring, tedious or frustrating. You know......the ones that press my buttons.
It's amazing how much nicer the forums become when you add just one or 2 of the most obnoxious members to your _*'ignore'*_ list.

Try it....its free


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## azzmilan (Jan 6, 2018)

I agree a lot with GBWhite however there has been studies that are suggesting that reptiles do respond to enrichment that address behavioural needs. Though admittedly a lot more study is needed to be done on this before it can be generalised to other reptile species. The following two below are from a quick ten minute search and is very encouraging for the future of reptile research.

Bashaw M, Gibson M, Schowe D, Kucher A. Does enrichment improve reptile welfare? Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) respond to five types of environmental enrichment. _Applied Animal Behaviour Science_ , November 1, 2016;184:150-160. 
&
Burghardt G. Environmental enrichment and cognitive complexity in reptiles and amphibians: Concepts, review, and implications for captive populations. _Applied Animal Behaviour Science_ [serial online]. August 1, 2013;147(Welfare of Zoo Animals):286-298. Available from: ScienceDirect, Ipswich, MA. Accessed January 6, 2018.

All my reptiles have been kept in environments which mimic their wild environments, such as burrowing areas, hide spots ect. Now that I have converted them all to bioactive environments, I have noticed many of them will also take a chance at some of the clean up crew.I also feed my reptiles a varied diet as often as I can and that includes the time of day ect I personally think that allows your reptiles to be most "entertained ", "stimulated" what have you. With eve

I don't think tubs are generally the wrong way of keeping animals, I view it as a micro environment type of habitat , like inside a burrow. I just don't see the point of keeping beautiful pets and then locking them away out of sight when out in the wild you have some of the most varied and breathtaking environments.


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## Wally (Jan 6, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Guys,
> Just like to point out this awesome feature called *'ignore'*
> I use it on those members who I find really boring, tedious or frustrating. You know......the ones that press my buttons.
> It's amazing how much nicer the forums become when you add just one or 2 of the most obnoxious members to your _*'ignore'*_ list.
> ...



It sort of works.

If you're not logged in then obviously those that annoy are visible.

If you are logged in then the conversation comes across as disjointed and hard to follow.

If you don't utilise it then you may have steam coming out of your ears.

First world problems I guess.


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## Scutellatus (Jan 6, 2018)

azzmilan said:


> I agree a lot with GBWhite however there has been studies that are suggesting that reptiles do respond to enrichment that address behavioural needs. Though admittedly a lot more study is needed to be done on this before it can be generalised to other reptile species. The following two below are from a quick ten minute search and is very encouraging for the future of reptile research.
> 
> Bashaw M, Gibson M, Schowe D, Kucher A. Does enrichment improve reptile welfare? Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) respond to five types of environmental enrichment. _Applied Animal Behaviour Science_ , November 1, 2016;184:150-160.
> &
> ...


You should make a thread with a write up and pictures of your enclosures. I would love to see how they look and read how you put them together.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Jan 6, 2018)

Wally said:


> It sort of works.
> 
> If you're not logged in then obviously those that annoy are visible.
> 
> ...


Live love and let the good times roll.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 6, 2018)

kankryb said:


> In Denmark by law mouse and rat breeders must supply a toy, a block of wood, in each tub so they can climb and run around it.


that's actually quite awesome, as someone who loves rodents.


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## Iguana (Jan 6, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> Talking about enrichment for intelligent animals. She gets nervous as it gets dark and doesn't feel safe on her cage or adjacent perches which are just inside a big glass door so she flies off to a safe place, always lands on top of my inkjet printer, I've tried for years to get her to land somewhere else, built special perch stands right next to it but she likes the top of the printer, likes to peck at the touch controls and send the printer into a frenzy. I started covering the printer but she just threw the cover on the floor so now I cover that with newspaper which she shreds then throws the cover on the floor so she can peck the buttons.
> 
> View attachment 322678



She's beautiful! Let her have the printer lol. I love big parrots, they're so intelligent and colorful, and a complete handful by the sounds of it. I'd love a parrot but sadly I don't have the time or space right now.


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## kankryb (Jan 7, 2018)

*Enrichment for reptiles*
*Is this it? *


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## Wally (Jan 7, 2018)

kankryb said:


> *Enrichment for reptiles*
> *Is this it? *
> 
> View attachment 322682



I'm not sure.

Has your stumpy worked out how to operate your washing machine?


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## kankryb (Jan 7, 2018)

As you can see, not yet


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## Waterrat (Jan 7, 2018)

Behavioural enrichment may or may not be beneficial to all species. So, when referring to "reptiles" we are really generalizing far and wide. E.g. large varanids, crocodiles, etc., are very different to Death Adders, geckos, etc., physically, physiologically, ecologically and behaviourally. And comparing reptiles to birds or mammals is outright ridiculous.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jan 7, 2018)

Waterrat said:


> George, my take on the issue is - enrichment (frequent change of interior, fresh air, fresh water, feeding techniques, etc.) encourages the inhabitant to move around. That, in my opinion is beneficial if nothing else. Naturalistic enclosures also give the owner ample opportunities to observe and learn about the species' behaviour, which is beneficial to the keeper. All in all, the benefits outweigh the negatives, which in my opinion is only the time spent setting up and maintaining the enclosures. When I pick up my GTPs, I can feel the muscle tone, when I pick up GTPs kept in a box with one perch and nothing else, they feel like floppy, fatty sausages.
> 
> cheers
> Michael



I have to agree with Michael.
Animals kept in captivity can be kept in a manner that leaves them deprived of the ability/need (and maybe even the will) to be active which will promote muscle development and good health.

While I also agree with George that a reptilian brain is not is not well enough developed to suffer from boredom/depression I do and have seen animals that have had complete changes in behaviour after they have been moved to what I describe as being a more appropriate enclosure.

There is certainly a case to argue that a reptiles needs _*MAY*_ not be fully met when keeping them in small tubs/racks though I think it depends upon the design/size or the tub and its contents. The size/species of the animal and even individual animals within a species. During my first 25 years of keeping/breeding reptiles I hated the very concept of tubs & racks but now I do use racks for some of my animals and I find some of them have flourished in that environment while others have been moved back to enclosures because they just don't seem to do so well.

Problem lies not with tubs/racks/or even the 'enrichment' of the enclosure the animal is kept in but with the keeper themselves.
I get sick to death of hearing how you _*MUST*_ keep young snakes in a tub because 'they won't do well' in an enclosure. What absolute BS. In my opinion these statements are used because people want to justify their actions rather than take the time to understand what the animal actually needs. I have been keeping young snakes in enclosures for many many years so either I have been lucky an awful lot of times or someone else has got it wrong.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 7, 2018)

Different species have different behavioural repertoires. An ambush hunter that spends nearly all its time lying in wait or down a burrow, log or in a rock ledge digesting its meal, is likely a good candidate for a rack system. However an active forager clearly is not likely to be so well suited. I believe there is a difference between maintaining a reptile by providing just its essential needs for living and catering for its instinctive behavioural drives as well. As a kid I recall seeing an Eastern water dragon in a pet shop with a centimetre plus of jaw bones and teeth protruding from the front of its snout. It had been kept in a canary wired fronted box from which it obviously kept trying to escape, despite the pain it must have been causing itself. Its essential needs to keep it alive had been met but its behavioural needs clearly had not been. So if you raised a water dragon in that same cage, but with a glass front, and the lizard looked physically alright, would that make it OK? 

I don’t wish to re-ignite the fire but I believe the following needs to be said. “Paranoid” is totally the wrong term to be using to describe predator avoidance behaviour in animals. Apart from being anthropomorphic, the term means responding to an imagined belief that others are trying to do you harm. It is a condition that is often the result of severe mental illness. “Insecure” denotes a lack of belief in one’s self and abilities, resulting in feeling unsafe and/or anxious without a real reason. Little wonder people were defensive - such comments are clearly derogatory in nature. All this served to do is generate a non-constructive argument that resulted in mostly frustration and anger. Yet so easily avoided with a little thoughtfulness beforehand and being more considerate of others rather than so insensitively dogmatic.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 7, 2018)

i think they can suffer from depression, goldfish can and do all the time, so why wouldn't things as smart as crocs and monitors?


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 7, 2018)

Just so that others understand that you are not being anthropomorphic, there is a biological definition of depression that applies to organisms in general: “a lowering of physical or mental vitality or of functional activity”.

That may well be the case with the water dragon I mentioned. I don’t know. However, the point to be made here is that providing the basic essential needs that allow growth and even achieving reproduction in captive reptiles, does not necessarily mean that keepers are providing for all the needs of their animals. Reptiles also have varying behavioural needs that are not necessarily essential for life.

We are definitely getting a lot better at providing for the behavioural drives with our captive reptiles. Most care sheets and keeping guides these days have a section devoted to ‘natural habits’. The purpose of this is to help keepers understand the normal wild behaviour of a given species and to incorporate these behavioural needs into the captive environment as best we can. Michael Cermack gave us an excellent exemplar of this with captive GTP’s.

With animals of higher intelligence, they often have to use this ability as virtually a puzzle solving exercise to gain access to food. So this behavioural need translates into a rather different form of environmental enrichment.

The foregoing is my take on the issue and I don’t expect that others necessarily concur.


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## Snapped (Jan 10, 2018)

Yellowtail said:


> Talking about enrichment for intelligent animals. She gets nervous as it gets dark and doesn't feel safe on her cage or adjacent perches which are just inside a big glass door so she flies off to a safe place, always lands on top of my inkjet printer, I've tried for years to get her to land somewhere else, built special perch stands right next to it but she likes the top of the printer, likes to peck at the touch controls and send the printer into a frenzy. I started covering the printer but she just threw the cover on the floor so now I cover that with newspaper which she shreds then throws the cover on the floor so she can peck the buttons.
> 
> View attachment 322678



Maybe get an old second hand cheapy printer so she can do what she likes, and have your (under attack) printer somewhere else. Beautiful bird by the way.


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## Yellowtail (Jan 10, 2018)

Snapped said:


> Maybe get an old second hand cheapy printer so she can do what she likes, and have your (under attack) printer somewhere else. Beautiful bird by the way.


It would have to be a modern one with illuminated touch controls but if I let her stay there she would become bored with pecking the lights and demolish the whole thing.


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## Stompsy (Jan 10, 2018)

kankryb said:


> *Enrichment for reptiles*
> *Is this it? *
> 
> View attachment 322682


Depends if they’re clean or dirty!


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