# University



## CrazyNut (Mar 17, 2016)

Hi,
does anyone know if its possible to substitute a prerequisites to get into a uni course? For example bachelor of science the prerequisites is english, maths methods/methods + specialist and one of either physics, biology and chemistry. Would it be possible to do all 3 sciences but maths general instead of methods?

regards
CN


----------



## Stompsy (Mar 17, 2016)

Probably better asking this question to the university or a forum for the particular course. But, at a guess, I'd say not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CrazyNut (Mar 17, 2016)

Damn. And apologies to admins, I thought I posted this in chat.


----------



## pythoninfinite (Mar 18, 2016)

I'm thinking that different unis have varying criteria for entry into their courses - maybe if you shop around? Probably worthwhile to seek a face-to-face meeting with course advisers in any event.

Jamie


----------



## Newts (Mar 18, 2016)

Definitely ask at the unis you're interested in. For my science degree, it was methods/specialist or no entry. That being said, they did have an intensive first semester chemistry subject which was for students who had not done chem in yrs 11 and 12 but who needed it as a prereq. So such a thing for maths might exist.


----------



## bipolar_bear (Mar 18, 2016)

Are you sure they're prerequisites and not assumed knowledge? Prerequisites you absolutely have to do as subject in high school or you won't be accepted into that course, whereas with assumed knowledge, they will assume you've previously studied topic but it isn't necessary for you to have done to be accepted into uni. They generally reteach it too, so you don't need to worry about taking summer school classes. I know some degrees will have a prerequisite of say, chemistry and at least of another such as agriculture/ horticulture, biology, geology, maths studies or methods, physics, scientific studies etc. but it doesn't matter which one. 

I'm currently studying a Bachelor of Science myself and a straight science degree such as this does not have any prerequisites whatsoever, unless you're doing a specialization degree, so for instance a Bachelor of Science (Forensic and Analytical Science), this has a prerequisite of stage 2 chemistry.
It does vary slightly from uni to uni, but overall they all have similar prerequisites or assumed knowledge, at least in SA they do.
It generally depends on where you want your studies to take you career wise. For me, I'm aspiring for a career in Palaeontology, so at the moment I'm studying a BSc with a major in ecology, evolution and organismal biology with a minor in zoology. With that in mind, there are recommended topics I'm doing such as general chemistry, earth and environmental sciences, molecular biology etc. that will assist me the greatest in acquiring the knowledge I need to be successful in that particular career path. Chemistry I had to do as I didn't do it in year 12, but it wasn't a prerequisite for a BSc.

To specifically answer your question though, to the best of my knowledge, I highly doubt you'd be allowed to. They have prerequisites set for a reason and I've never heard of anyone being exempted from that.


----------



## CrazyNut (Mar 18, 2016)

Yeh they are prerequisites. Mind you I don't know why you would need methods/specialist got zoology and ecology. And how are you doing three majors and a minor? I always thought you could do double major, single major or major/minor?


----------



## kingofnobbys (Mar 18, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> Yeh they are prerequisites. Mind you I don't know why you would need methods/specialist got zoology and ecology. And how are you doing three majors and a minor? I always thought you could do double major, single major or major/minor?



If they are PREREQUISITES , and you don't have them , you will be well advised to do a bridging course prior to enrolling the undergraduate degree you want to do, there is no EASY way. If you are accepted into the degree program without them, you will immediately be in trouble as you will not have the assumed knowledge / skills and the lecturers will not make any concessions , you are likely to drop out or fail the subject/s. They will not cover that material and will be providing coursework THAT BUILDS ON THE PREREQUISITE KNOWLEDGE. The tutors and laboratory staff/demostrators will have very large groups in each tutorial/laboratory and will not have the time to support a student who is floundering and it wont be fair to your allocated lab partner to have to carry you

My advise is do the recommended year 11 and year 12 subjects so you have the prerequsits.

Dual degree ? (maybe he wants to gain admission into a dual degree program.) You need to visit the unis' new students sites and go to the detailed programs for the degrees you want or do and see what the entry prerequisites are for each 100 Level and 200 Level subject , then organise your yr 11 and 12 subjects to comply.


----------



## CrazyNut (Mar 18, 2016)

No I have them its all good there. I was concerned I would not be able to pass methods. Contemplating dropping it or at least I was. How do bridging programs work?


----------



## bipolar_bear (Mar 18, 2016)

The only BSc specialization that I know of that requires maths is various engineering degrees.
All the students across my uni were required to do a maths competency test which is just a refresher test that includes maths that will be used across all the subjects and is very, very simple. Just included scientific notation, logs, statistics and I can't remember the 4th component. I'm not doing 3 majors hahahahaha, it's just one major with an unnecessarily long title.


----------



## Newts (Mar 18, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> Mind you I don't know why you would need methods/specialist got zoology and ecology.



If you are serious about doing science, you will be doing statistics. The reason why methods is a prerequisite is to train you in the kind of step-by-step analytical methods required by science. Ecology is suprisingly heavy in maths too. For sure, there's not a heap of stuff in methods that is directly applicable to zoology or ecology, (except for stats, algerbraic formulas and some other things) but I think you definitely need to at least show you can understand that kind of thing to have a good shot at any kind of science. There's also a pretty big gap between general maths and methods/specialist so general doesn't quite cut it. I don't think it's that uncommon for maths to be a prereq for science, at least in Victoria. But it does depend a lot on the particular university.

I thought I would fail methods too, but I think that fear made me extra careful about not failing and I did quite well. We had people coming out of the exams crying and they ended up getting near perfect scores. So try not to let that put you off too much. Talk to yr 11 and 12 maths teachers about your concerns too.


----------



## CrazyNut (Mar 19, 2016)

Yeh I'm in year 11. Current classes are Maths Methods, Maths General, English (though I qualify for acclerated english), Biology, Chemistry and VET Infomation Technology. I should have also said I am in Victoria. I would have thought the maths used in Gen, Chem and Bio would have been enough. My last sac score for Methods was UG.... Though my teacher beleives I can and will improve from that and get to the required lvl... 
So 2 questions, how does a bridging program work/what does it involve? And does anyone know if its possible to do a double major + a minnor?


----------



## kingofnobbys (Mar 19, 2016)

Newts said:


> If you are serious about doing science, you will be doing statistics. The reason why methods is a prerequisite is to train you in the kind of step-by-step analytical methods required by science. Ecology is suprisingly heavy in maths too. For sure, there's not a heap of stuff in methods that is directly applicable to zoology or ecology, (except for stats, algerbraic formulas and some other things) but I think you definitely need to at least show you can understand that kind of thing to have a good shot at any kind of science. There's also a pretty big gap between general maths and methods/specialist so general doesn't quite cut it. I don't think it's that uncommon for maths to be a prereq for science, at least in Victoria. But it does depend a lot on the particular university.
> 
> I thought I would fail methods too, but I think that fear made me extra careful about not failing and I did quite well. We had people coming out of the exams crying and they ended up getting near perfect scores. So try not to let that put you off too much. Talk to yr 11 and 12 maths teachers about your concerns too.



Yep , if you are serious about studying any rigorous science (not the airyfairy disciplimes that call them selves sciences) you'll need a very strong base in calculus and algebra and stats as you'll be studying at math subjects at 100 , and 200 level at least , you'll be doing at least 100 and 200 level stats, 100 and 200 level analysis (real and complex), 100 and 200 level calculus including ordinary and partial differential equations, multivariable calculus, fourier and laplace transforms and might need tensors.

Expect a hard slog for 3 years for a basic 3 year bachelors' degree in science, and 4 years if you do the honours year.

This is the kind of information you need to access to make the right decisions on subjects 
https://www.newcastle.edu.au/degrees/bachelor-of-science/handbook


Talk to the head teacher in the science department, the chemistry, biology and physics teachers they'll be able outline your needs and may know you and have a good idea of your abilities.

- - - Updated - - -



CrazyNut said:


> No I have them its all good there. I was concerned I would not be able to pass methods. Contemplating dropping it or at least I was. How do bridging programs work?


http://www.newcastle.edu.au/future-...-courses/welcome-to-uon-prep-bridging-courses


----------



## CrazyNut (Mar 20, 2016)

Eh call me stupid but what the hell is meant by 100 and 200 lvl??????? And why would we use complex numbers? Sorry I only ask because a) I barely know what they are and b) they are only taught in the specialist course, not methods.
and just to clear up any misconception I'm from Melbourne, Victoria (I did say that in my last comment but anyway).


----------



## kingofnobbys (Mar 20, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> Eh call me stupid but what the hell is meant by 100 and 200 lvl??????? And why would we use complex numbers? Sorry I only ask because a) I barely know what they are and b) they are only taught in the specialist course, not methods.
> and just to clear up any misconception I'm from Melbourne, Victoria (I did say that in my last comment but anyway).



Your local university will have similar pages that are available for prospective students to review on their web pages.


100 (or 1000) level are regarded as 1st year undergrad subjects
200 (or 2000) level are 2nd year
300 (or 3000) level are 3rd year
400 (or 4000) level are honours year
500 and 600 level are masters degree subject

You can not solve many differential equations without using complex numbers , and there are important methods in linear algebra, and calculus that involve complex numbers. There are also real life applications of complex numbers in the physical sciences (and engineering too).
Many real systems are modelled using ordinary and multivariable partial differential equations who have real life solutions involving complex numbers.


----------



## CrazyNut (Mar 20, 2016)

Ok. Will have to see if the methods teacher can introduce me to complex numbers and using them for diffrential equations (we haven't done those yet either). ATM we are doing quadratic and quartic formulae using both hand and CAS.


----------



## baker (Mar 20, 2016)

Newts summed it up fairly well. Basically just try your hardest in methods and you will surprise yourself with how you go. Think about failing or dropping out, chances are you will fail. Concentrate what you are doing in methods and just see how you go. Main reason it is a prerequisite is because they uni does not know what you will end up studying during your time there, so they want you to be capable of any first year course when you start.

Now if you do still end up failing their are bridging courses to let you get into a Bachelor of Science. Only use these if you have already failed methods. Bridging courses will generally put everything you are meant to learn from methods in two years, into only a one semester course. They are not easy and are designed to make you catch up quickly to the rest. Honestly though unless you absolutely need them avoid them. Be a headache for you to do and they just waste a semester at uni.

Also don't get scared from what kingofnobbys is saying. Each university is different but you will generally have a first year statistics course then the options to take it further. In all my time at uni I have only done one first year statistic and a second year biostatistics course. The rest I have learnt during assignments for courses. 

I don't know what courses you have done or are majoring in kingofbobbys, but in my four years of undergrad I have never heard of or used anything that you have mentioned. Even friends I have doing PhD have never used that sort of stuff. Only thing I can see that stuff being used in is computational mathematics or a mathematics major. Majority of your statistical work is done on computers these days anyway. Knowing how to do that stuff by hand is great and all but you are never really going to do it that way. Especially using big datasets. Much better to learn how to use R than learning to do that stuff by hand.

I'm currently in my fourth and final year of a Bachelor of science dual majoring ecology and zoology, and even while doing undergraduate research currently I would not call university a hard slog. It is as hard as you make it on yourself. Don't study or participate in courses you are going to have a horrible time, but as long as you do some study and participate it is not hard. 

As for your question if you can dual major with a minor, sure can. But it is up to you to get all the required courses and credits for each major and minor completed. Make sure that you are well organized to try and do something like that.

Cheers, Cameron


----------



## CrazyNut (Mar 20, 2016)

Awesome! Thanks Cam! That was extermly helpful information! Glad I can do double major + minnor. Since I can do that I might do double major zoology and herpetology and minnor in ecology or something along those lines. A freind was telling me that if you do a lower qualification at a university it guarentees you a spot in a higher qualification such as bachelor (he did certificate 3 in IT and now he is doing a gaming developemnt course at RMIT) is that the same for most unis?


----------



## kingofnobbys (Mar 20, 2016)

CrazyNut said:


> Awesome! Thanks Cam! That was extermly helpful information! Glad I can do double major + minnor. Since I can do that I might do double major zoology and herpetology and minnor in ecology or something along those lines. A freind was telling me that if you do a lower qualification at a university it guarentees you a spot in a higher qualification such as bachelor (he did certificate 3 in IT and now he is doing a gaming developemnt course at RMIT) is that the same for most unis?



Yes you can do certificates at TAFE (? is it still called TAFE) that you can obtain some credit for prior studies towards related bachelors' degrees, typically you can get credit for some 1st year subjects.

Baker is correct - you need to shop around wrt the course and different universities, each runs it's own courses and has it's own entry requirements .

Also 

There is a reason why there is big difference between certificates and bachelors' degrees , mostly to do with depth of knowledge. 

My areas of study at university were chemistry, physics , chemical engineering, computer engineering (to learn advanced process modelling and advanced process control). Involving lots of maths , mostly multivariable calculus and algebra (matrices and matrix maths and many uses of complex numbers).

It will not hurt your academic prospects to tackle the hardest maths available at your highschool, even if your grade at the end of year 12 is poor in that subject (we called it 3 unit maths and it became 4 unit maths in my day (way back in the mid 70s in NSW), provided you have tried and done the drill problems and have a handle on the methods , you be well placed to handle any 1st math subject and most 1st science subjects.

My experience was that in math 1 , we had nearly 40% of students drop out in before the end of semester 1 , they couldn't hack the pace that new stuff was being introduced or the workload just to keep up with the tutorial problems and assignments. Lost even more after the results were posted for the semester 1 (mid year) exams when they failed or came close to failing or were graded a terminating pass (really a failure).. 

My first bachelors' degree was the hardest to get (B.Sc (Chemistry)), after that, it was a relatively quick process (but by no means ever easy - well for me anyway) to gain more degrees (most my colleagues were similar), as I was granted up to 50% credit for prior studies towards subsequent degrees. 

Develop a solid study ethic now, you will need it. Was not unheard of for me to wait for my family to go to bed and then stay up well into the small hours to take advantage of the quiet and distraction free time "burning the midnight oil" to do my reading, research, assignments, laboratory reports, study and revise and practice for exams, and write my thesis.

- - - Updated - - -



CrazyNut said:


> Ok. Will have to see if the methods teacher can introduce me to complex numbers and using them for diffrential equations (we haven't done those yet either). ATM we are doing quadratic and quartic formulae using both hand and CAS.



I suspect differential equations are beyond the scope of the CAS y11 and y12 curriculum. I might be wrong , I don't recall seeing them until first year maths ( I've vague memory that 1st order and 2nd order linear ordinary differential equations are introduced in year 1 ).

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Pages/vce/studies/mathematics/cas/casindex.aspx#H2N10020

I can see no mention of differential equations in these documents. Differentiation and integration is there, as expected.


----------

