# Found a Baby Pigeon!



## Pythonlovers (Apr 5, 2013)

Hi everyone Ashleigh here,

So this morning we had landscapers over doing our garden and they where pulling all the dead fronds off the ferns, one of the dead fronds had a nest on it and a baby pigeon fell out!
I have put the little guy in a box with a towel in our room with the heater on so he is nice and toasty, now my only issue is what to feed it!

Here are some photos. I'm 99% sure it's a Pigeon!


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## Shotta (Apr 5, 2013)

maybe you could try some sort of hand rearing mixture insectivore mix 
lol its either a pigeon or a real ugly canary


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

They're seed eaters, and not that easy to feed at that age because the parents pump the food from their crops down the throat of the baby. You may get a feeding response by lightly pressing the sides of the beak (it will flutter its wings and lunge to receive the food). I used to raise baby Senegal and Chinese turtledoves sometimes, but had to do it one seed at a time (get some mixed large parrot seed, and pick the biggest ones out (I avoided sunflower seeds)). It can be a bit time consuming, but a full crop two or three times a day is all it takes, and they develop really fast. I got them to pick on their own by placing a shallow dish of seeds in front of them, and picking the seeds up in my fingers and trickling them back to the dish - it stimulates their interest and they pick at the falling seeds. They don't know to swallow them for the first day or two, but get the hang of it soon enough. You may want to incorporate a bit of calcium powder into the seed as well.

Probably a dove by the way...

Jamie


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## Pythonlovers (Apr 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> They're seed eaters, and not that easy to feed at that age because the parents pump the food from their crops down the throat of the baby. You may get a feeding response by lightly pressing the sides of the beak (it will flutter its wings and lunge to receive the food). I used to raise baby Senegal and Chinese turtledoves sometimes, but had to do it one seed at a time (get some mixed large parrot seed, and pick the biggest ones out (I avoided sunflower seeds)). It can be a bit time consuming, but a full crop two or three times a day is all it takes, and they develop really fast. I got them to pick on their own by placing a shallow dish of seeds in front of them, and picking the seeds up in my fingers and trickling them back to the dish - it stimulates their interest and they pick at the falling seeds. They don't know to swallow them for the first day or two, but get the hang of it soon enough. You may want to incorporate a bit of calcium powder into the seed as well.
> 
> Probably a dove by the way...
> 
> Jamie



Sorry Pythoninfinite, not used to all this bird talk!
What do you mean by a full crop?


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## Lachie3112 (Apr 5, 2013)

I know what you could feed _that_ to hahaha.

I think this baby pigeon is between 5-12 days old, baby birds of this size will *not* last very long without parents. Since there is probably no chance of returning it to its nest I suggest you read this:



> Pigeons and Doves
> *Feeding adult pigeons & doves*
> Adult birds are seedeaters and eat a variety of seeds and grains.
> *Feeding baby pigeons & doves*
> ...



Source: Granivores - Parrots, Pigeons, and Doves - Fauna Rescue SA Inc.

This will not be an easy task unless you are an experienced person who has looked after many birds. I'm sorry but this bird will most likely die.


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## oOLaurenOo (Apr 5, 2013)

OK, so thats a little dove (Not a native) They are pretty bullet proof and easy to rase. First off, if you want to raise it, head down to a pet shop and buy a baby bird rearing mixture. Next you'll need some syringes, you should be able to buy them from your local vet for very cheap. When I raise them I use something called a J loop. I cut the end off so its a thin soft tube which attaches to the end of the syringe. When feeding, gently hold the head up and open the beak, insert the tube into the beak about a few centre metres down, its really important that you do this. If you don't, and just put the food into the beak they can very easily get the food into there lungs and die. Feed 3 or so times a day, Feed until the crop is firm, but not hard.  
I have raised dozens of these guys. They are good fun.


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## Lachie3112 (Apr 5, 2013)

Pythonlovers said:


> Sorry Pythoninfinite, not used to all this bird talk!
> What do you mean by a full crop?



Crop is like a sac where food is stored before digestion. (Well that's the simplest way of describing it)


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## oOLaurenOo (Apr 5, 2013)

On, and make sure they are warm. DONT ever feed if they are cold. If they feel warm and seem active, they are at a good temp, if they feel cold and aren't very active or responsive they are cold. If they are breathing quickly or panting they are too hot.


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## oOLaurenOo (Apr 5, 2013)

Or alternatively you could make a new nest and put it back. Its very likely that the parents will take it back


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## Pythonlovers (Apr 5, 2013)

Wow everybody, thank you so much for all your help! I'm at work now so I will relay all this information to Jesse! We will try our best to keep this little guy alive!
And if all else fails... I know two hungry Green Tree Pythons....


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

oOLaurenOo said:


> Or alternatively you could make a new nest and put it back. Its very likely that the parents will take it back



This won't happen with a dove, so don't try it. All the helpful info you have been given should work well, the negatives - such as "it will most likely die" - forget them until you've tried. Although of no consequence in the scheme of things, challenges like this are enormously beneficial to your overall skills as an animal manager, and if you succeed you will have added another arrow to the quiver of experience you have.

The crop is basically the first stop for the food when it is ingested - it's a bag that sits in front of the breast, and it is obvious when it is empty or full. In fact, if the bird was fed by its parents this morning, it may still have seeds evident in it - carefully feel the area in front of the breastbone between your fingers - if it has a gritty feel, or you can feel stuff in there, that's the crop.

Jamie


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## Lachie3112 (Apr 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> the negatives - such as "it will most likely die" - forget them until you've tried.



Sorry if I came off as negative, I wasn't trying to be negative, rather just saying that be prepared for it not to live. I only mention it because I gave someone advice like this once. The animal died and they got all cranky that I neglected to mention its' odds were stacked against it.

tl;dr Don't give up hope, but don't have too much hope either.


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## solar 17 (Apr 5, 2013)

A cropping needle has got to be one of the handiest tools that "anybody" with snakes or birds could own IMO because someday you are going to need one (straight away)  B


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## Wing_Nut (Apr 5, 2013)

It looks like a common racing pigeon to me. But it is definitely a dove/pigeon and the basic husbandry is the same.

Hand raising them from that age is quite simple however you will need a syringe (at least 10mm dia) and you cut the end off. This creates an artificial beak and the squab will drink from it, usually pretty redily. You push it over the birds beak and this replicates the parents. As the bird grows you may need a bigger syringe. I soak chicken rearing crumbles in hot water (not boiling) and mix 1ml of natural yougurt to the mix and feed around 32-34C, however a bought hand raising mix (1 part water one part mix) is very good to (Roudybush works great). At that age (5-7 days) you need to feed them around 15ml of this every six hours. For the first few days make the mix quite loose as they are susceptible to dehydration at that age. By two weeks they should be having about 40ml per feed and you don't need to increase it after that. At this stage they are very eager to feed and care must be take as they will lunge at the syringe. At 20 days old they will start pecking at seeds and by 28 they can be weaned onto a seed diet. A suitable temp for raising them at this age is around 37-38C. 

I have done this successfully many times. 

Regards 

Wing_Nut


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

Lachie3112 said:


> Sorry if I came off as negative, I wasn't trying to be negative, rather just saying that be prepared for it not to live. I only mention it because I gave someone advice like this once. The animal died and they got all cranky that I neglected to mention its' odds were stacked against it.
> 
> tl;dr Don't give up hope, but don't have too much hope either.



Yes, it's always good to be mindful of the worst outcomes when dealing with animals! It can be a bit tedious for a few days with these doves, but I remember one in particular that we raised when I was at school, for about 18 months after we released it, it would fly down onto my , or my mother's, head every time one of us went down the street. Very cute, and quite rewarding "feel-good" moments...

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

Being Melbourne and found in vegetation, I'd say most likely one of the exotic doves, Senegal or Necklace. They make really flimsy nests in low vegetation.

J


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## Wing_Nut (Apr 5, 2013)

In my experience, these types of birds are very hardy, very easy to raise and I would expect that there is a pretty good chance this bird can survive. I have a hen that I raised in this manner who does exactly as Jamie says, it will fly to me and sit on my shoulder whenever it can. She is now 6 years old. 

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## cathy1986 (Apr 5, 2013)

Pythonlovers said:


> Sorry Pythoninfinite, not used to all this bird talk!
> What do you mean by a full crop?



If you dont know what a crop is then maybe best get it of to a vet or wildlife carer and let them do it 

from Cathy


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## oOLaurenOo (Apr 5, 2013)

A vet or wildlife carer won't take it because its not a native. Like everyone is saying, they are very hardly little buggers. You will be fine.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

cathy1986 said:


> If you dont know what a crop is then maybe best get it of to a vet or wildlife carer and let them do it
> 
> from Cathy



She now knows what a crop is Cathy, so the process of learning has begun already. Why should not knowing what a crop is mean that you pass the problem to someone else and stay in the dark forever yourself???

I might add that most of my experiences were pre cover-all-bases hand rearing mixes were available, hence my primitive reponse initially lol! I've since done many parrots with a range of top-quality hand rearing mixes and they are both convenient and excellent.

Jamie


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## Wing_Nut (Apr 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I might add that most of my experiences were pre cover-all-bases hand rearing mixes were available, hence my primitive reponse initially lol! I've since done many parrots with a range of top-quality hand rearing mixes and they are both convenient and excellent.
> 
> Jamie



And since those pre-text book times Jamie there seems a strong and constant requirement to make things much more complicated than is required. A understanding of a range of approaches from the most primitive to the most complicated usually gives the best insight into what is the best process. Hand feeding grain works, and in my opinion would eliminate some of the potential pitfalls of other methods. I have done this before and it works fine. In a bind, I would use that technique again. Although primitive it shows an understanding of the basic biology of the animal. The KISS principle is alive and well. 

Regards

Wing_Nut


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## Pythonlovers (Apr 5, 2013)

Thanks again guys, I'm sure he will be fine! 

My partner and the landscapers keep arguing with me and they want to put it back in the fernery.
I'm at work so I don't have time to argue! What do you guys think!

P.S He is probably looking at this now!


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## oOLaurenOo (Apr 5, 2013)

The parents would likely take it back. Birds are not as finicky as people think.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

oOLaurenOo said:


> The parents would likely take it back. Birds are not as finicky as people think.



The parents of a deserted dove will NOT take it back, period. It will die of cold or become cat fodder within the first few hours of darkness. Your statement that "birds are not as finicky as people think" indicates that you know nothing of doves. If it was a honeyeater, magpie or something with a strong social connections and a few brains, your statement may have some validity, but not in this case. Pigeons and doves are a natural prey species and will not expose themselves to ongoing threats - they will readily desert nests and young if they are interfered with.

Jamie


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## oOLaurenOo (Apr 5, 2013)

Sorry, guess my years of experience working as a veterinary nurse and dealing with hundreds of these doves every season counts for nothing. I have seen the parents take them back countless times. As long as they are placed back near (Preferably back in the nest but doesn't have to be) and left alone the parents most certainly will take them back.


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## Wing_Nut (Apr 5, 2013)

Unless you have a positive ID of the species, a broad response of the 'parents would likely take it back' could prove fatal to the youngster. Some species of pigeons and doves do in fact have a high maternal drive and will take young removed from the nest back, however the vast majority do not. Given that the nest site in this case was disturbed, I have to agree with Jamie in that the outlook for the squab would be bleak. I have kept and bred a great many dove species and also agree that many species of doves are very finicky. I have often experienced situations where squabs were reintroduced into nests, only to be abandoned a day or two later. Unless it is possible to offer such nests a reasonable amount of surveillance the outcome of any reintroduction is never really known. I certainly do not wish to offend your experience, however it is my experience that reintroduction of the most common species of doves in Australia to nests ultimately ends in death. If you are able to document the outcome of reintroductions and give me evidence to the contrary, I would be glad to broaden my knowledge base on these animals.

Kind Regards

Wing_Nut


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## Lachie3112 (Apr 5, 2013)

IMO if the bird is this young, which I'm guessing is 5-12 days old, it would die before its parents take it back. The bird doesn't even have feathers yet. I've seen baby birds get taken back but normally when they're older, not this young.


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 5, 2013)

What's your plan for this bird if you do happen to successfully raise it? It's been confirmed that it isn't a native, so should not be released (unless you are okay with releasing corn snakes, boas, cane toads etc).


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## andynic07 (Apr 5, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> What's your plan for this bird if you do happen to successfully raise it? It's been confirmed that it isn't a native, so should not be released (unless you are okay with releasing corn snakes, boas, cane toads etc).


Not a bad point, is it even legal to release it?


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## Pythonlovers (Apr 5, 2013)

Haven't got that far yet! Suggestions please D:


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## andynic07 (Apr 5, 2013)

Can you keep it as a pet?


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> What's your plan for this bird if you do happen to successfully raise it? It's been confirmed that it isn't a native, so should not be released (unless you are okay with releasing corn snakes, boas, cane toads etc).



Was waiting for that... these birds have been naturalised in many cities in Oz for a century now, and as far as I can see cause little harm - in fact they are frequent targets for cats, and probably deflect cats from seeking native birds. As far as I can see, they don't occupy any niches from which they may exclude native species, unlike starlings, sparrows and mynahs, nor do they occupy and damage dwellings like feral rock pigeons. Absolutely cannot be equated with Corn Snakes, Boas or Cane Toads.

Jamie


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## littlemay (Apr 5, 2013)

Not to pass judgement in any way, but i find it interesting the way people react to these sorts of threads depending on the type of animal that has been found.

Often times if an injured snake snake has been found that a poster wishes to nurse back to health, they get hit with a ton of criticism along the lines of 'we should just let nature take its course'. Yet this isn't the case here? Admittedly the animal in question is not native and so direct ecological consequences of 'meddling with nature' might not be as relevant, but still.

Just an observation.


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Was waiting for that... these birds have been naturalised in many cities in Oz for a century now, and as far as I can see cause little harm - in fact they are frequent targets for cats, and probably deflect cats from seeking native birds. As far as I can see, they don't occupy any niches from which they may exclude native species, unlike starlings, sparrows and mynahs, nor do they occupy and damage dwellings like feral rock pigeons. Absolutely cannot be equated with Corn Snakes, Boas or Cane Toads.
> 
> Jamie



While I admit it would seem you know far more about it then myself, my argument is it is becomes very difficult when you start to class some non native species as acceptable for care and release back into the environment. While cats may or may not prey on these species, perhaps if they do all this does is sustain semi feral and feral cat populations. My suggestion would be to euthanize it but I guess this isn't something you wish to pursue.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 5, 2013)

It's unlikely that they would sustain a feral cat population because these introduced doves are only found in very close association with human urban habitation. I've lived rurally in WA and NSW and never seen them away from suburbia. At the end of the day, we can intellectualise forever about these things, but whatever the OP chooses to do, it won't make a jot of difference to the "environment." I see no downside in releasing it (or keeping it as a pet), the positives could be - target for a cat (rather than a native bird, food for a raptor (Falcon, goshawk, sparrowhawk (all of which love to eat them)), and as far as raising it goes, it could be a very rewarding learning and feelgood experience for the OP.

Jamie


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 5, 2013)

*Pythonlovers*, the bird is a Spotted Dove (_Streptopelia chinensis_) aka Spotted Turtledove, Chinese Dove etc. It has the brown colour plumage and the shape and colour of the beak. From the limited view available, I would reckon it to be just over a week old. It will be independent within 2 or 3 weeks – they develop very quickly.

This species is in aviculture so you will be able to keep it if you so wish. You would need to check your state regs to see if a licence is required and if there are any conditions attached. Given the bird’s wide spread distribution and its demonstrated reluctance to establish in natural habitat, my guess would be you won’t need a licence but it will be straight forward if you do.

Good luck!


*Mcloughlin*, all exotic animals present in Australia, or proposed to be brought here for whatever reason, have been assessed and graded across a range of criteria. These criteria look at things like the potential threats to our environment, the likelihood of a population establishing in various areas, information on their establishment outside their natural range anywhere else in the world, how invasive they may or may not be, the severity of their potential/actual effects on our environment etc. That is why it releasing corn snake or boas would attract court action and (hopefully) a stiff penalty. Releasing a cane toad in an area where cane toads are already well established would not even show on the radar. While deliberately releasing cane toads in an area not yet affected by them would find the culprit in serious hot water. So while there may be legislation prohibiting the release of any exotic, no-one in authority would even want to know about releasing the dove where it came from.

“Meddling with nature” – what a wonderfully evocative phrase with such ubiquitous application. My only real issue is that I have not a clue what it means….


Blue


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 6, 2013)

I agree with both the posts above this and am aware of the grading of non native animals and different levels of invasiveness. My argument is purely from looking at it with the general publics perception in my mind. If we class a bird as acceptable to release when it is non native then why not the corn snake (even though i myself can see the difference). At the end of the day it doesn't really make a difference and you are both a wealth of knowledge so I don't wish to argue the point any further.


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## phantomreptiles (Apr 6, 2013)

My two cents is in QLD any native creature must be only raised by a certified carer and if not native, humanely euthanised
Harsh yes, but our Eco system is fragile enough
I appreciate the OP is not in Qld, so law is different, but as I said "just my two cents worth"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 6, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> …If we class a bird as acceptable to release when it is non native then why not the corn snake…


 I did not consider it “arguing”. I was simply trying to answer the above question.

Checkout the activities of the Victorian Acclimatisation Society, established in 1861. The society deliberately attempted to naturalise plants and animals from other places (for a number of reasons). The results of their endeavours ranged from complete failure to some measure of localised success to being to successful. In the latter category are organisms such as blackberries, rabbits and foxes which have become noxious pests to their invasive capacities to establish in native bushland and the detrimental effects they have on native ecosystems. The point this demonstrates is that different exotic plants and animals are NOT EQUAL in the threat they pose to natural ecosystems.

There is also a major difference between releasing an individual into a population that is established, stabilised and its effects known and limited to areas of human habitation versus releasing an individual that is not established and has been assessed as posing an “extreme” threat of establishment and detrimental ecological effect. The “extreme” is its official government categorisation, not mine.


*Phantomreptiles*, a good point and one I was tempted to elaborate on earlier but had already written too much. I’ll just chuck in my thoughts now, if that’s OK? With legislation it is often not practical in many instances to make exceptions. Their can be far too many possible sets of circumstances, each with its own set of influencing factors. As a result, decrees of an all encompassing nature are often passed. The interpretation of how and when that legislation should be applied is up to the legal system – enforcement agencies and the court system. For example, it is illegal to shoplift. However, there is a difference in how you would an adult who pinches a grape and eats it versus an adult who steals a $1,000 watch.

Blue


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 6, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I did not consider it “arguing”. I was simply trying to answer the above question.
> 
> Checkout the activities of the Victorian Acclimatisation Society, established in 1861. The society deliberately attempted to naturalise plants and animals from other places (for a number of reasons). The results of their endeavours ranged from complete failure to some measure of localised success to being to successful. In the latter category are organisms such as blackberries, rabbits and foxes which have become noxious pests to their invasive capacities to establish in native bushland and the detrimental effects they have on native ecosystems. The point this demonstrates is that different exotic plants and animals are NOT EQUAL in the threat they pose to natural ecosystems.
> 
> ...



You have mis quoted me and left out the most important part of the sentence - I already know what you are saying. However your average Joe down the street won't know about the impacts of species a versus species b and this is where the problem is. So while I recognise that letting this bird go in the scheme of things will not negatively impact on the environment (based on information you have told me and the fact it is well established already) Joe is not going to be able to assess the situation properly and will decide his single corn snake won't do any harm to the environment. If we did out a blanket ban on all non native species being cared for an released then maybe we would get somewhere and Joe would go well actually I don't think this is native so maybe I shouldn't. 

While we are still discussing this I might as well bring up a point which I was going to last night but decided not too. You seem to assume that when I said these doves may help sustain semi feral and feral cats populations that I was talking about those in remote areas. What I had in mind were actually those populations which live in suburbia (I could name three local locations with a population of feral cats which may rely on these doves being a prey item for food). Implications of this are this also put natives at risk that these cats may come across.

At the end of the day do I think they are a big problem? No. Do I think they have no adverse impact on the environment? No.


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