# Buying Live Mice or Rats from Pet Shops



## mysnakesau (Oct 27, 2011)

I was talking to a worker at Pet Stock today. They don't sell any animals except fish, hermit crabs, but he was telling me he was approached by National Parks and was told that if they did have small animals, that it is a requirement of the pet shop to ask people why they are buying live mice or rats. If they are for people with snakes then he isn't allowed to sell them unless he gets the license number of the buyer. They have to keep records of such people for National Parks to check up, to make sure people aren't feeding live mice or rats to reptiles. He said the liability issue is too much for them to want to deal with which is why they don't bother. He said he gets at least 20 ppl a week, asking for live rodents for feeding to snakes and he said he wouldn't sell them even if he did have them.

So prove its a pet, or you can be refused the purchase. Good idea, I say good on them.


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## JAS101 (Oct 27, 2011)

plenty of backyard sellers will sell live rats/mice to pepole .


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## pythonmum (Oct 27, 2011)

Not really fair. I have purchased live mice as reptile food, but I kill them (or make my husband do it) right before feeding. Thus I am buying live mice for purposes of feeding my snakes, but they are not fed live feed.


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## slim6y (Oct 27, 2011)

Funny, a few years ago a pet shop was selling chicks as (and I quote) "Live feed".

Of course I questioned it and wrote to EPA... They could do nothing.

The thread is here somewhere - too tired to look for it now.


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## mysnakesau (Oct 27, 2011)

pythonmum said:


> Not really fair. I have purchased live mice as reptile food, but I kill them (or make my husband do it) right before feeding. Thus I am buying live mice for purposes of feeding my snakes, but they are not fed live feed.



I told the guy today, that I too have bought live mice from pet stores for my snakes, but they either become breeders or are euthanised before offering them to the snakes. I don't have the heart to feed live, even if it wasn't considered illegal. I said it is ppl that do this, especially for the pleasure of cruelty, that give reptiles a bad name.


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## JAS101 (Oct 27, 2011)

slim6y said:


> Funny, a few years ago a pet shop was selling chicks as (and I quote) "Live feed".
> 
> Of course I questioned it and wrote to EPA... They could do nothing.
> 
> The thread is here somewhere - too tired to look for it now.


 is it this one >>> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat-39/rspca-vs-pet-shop-signs-139368/


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## -Peter (Oct 27, 2011)

Sorry Kathy but that is the biggest load of crap. NPWS cannot ask for and do not have the right to ask for that information from petshops or authorise them to gather it. There is no requirement to provide that information to a petshop nor do the have the right to ask for it. Someones trying it on.


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## mysnakesau (Oct 27, 2011)

Really? Peter I must be the most gullable, sucker on earth. I believe everything I hear and most often thank God for my friends who rope me in before doing something silly. What you've said does make sense. I can't believe - I can actually - I fell for such a story.


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## smithson (Oct 27, 2011)

JAS101 said:


> plenty of backyard sellers will sell live rats/mice to pepole .





wear do i find someone with mice in south east melb


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## leamos (Oct 27, 2011)

smithson said:


> wear do i find someone with mice in south east melb



Keep an eye on the for sale forums, ads for rats and mice are posted regularly


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## GeckoJosh (Oct 28, 2011)

If you need live rodents in Melbourne I know Pails for Scales sell them


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## slim6y (Oct 28, 2011)

JAS101 said:


> is it this one >>> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat-39/rspca-vs-pet-shop-signs-139368/



Yes - that's the one...


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## tweety2 (Oct 28, 2011)

we were told that u should freeze ur mice and rats for 3 months before feeding them to ur snakes that way any bad bacteria in the rodent is frozen out of it so ur snake doesnt get sick from eating it any truth to that???

cheers
lisa


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## PythonLegs (Oct 28, 2011)

I wish this was the case, and it was enforcable. I swear, most of the douchebags I run into who own snakes feed live. Apparently it's entertaining? Meh.


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## FAY (Oct 28, 2011)

I went to a pet shop in the city a while ago. They had a ign on their rat cages that they sprayed them with something, can't remember what, but they were unsuitable to feed to your snake. I think the rats cost about $20.00 each.
I said to them that no reptile person would even pay that much for a rat to feed to their snake.

I think it is pet shop people saying whatever they want....bit like giving great reptile advice


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## Bel03 (Oct 28, 2011)

I see the same sign Fay mentioned in alot of petshops, & when going with a mate who was buying rats as pets, the lady at the petshop did ask if they were for a snake, although if it were i doubt you would say 'yes, yes it is'  My brother was buying live, (but killing first) for awhile, but again, as Fay mentioned, they want anywhere between $15-$25 each rat, so why would you bother anyway. Its a big risk for those who still do though, cause they really are treating them with chemicals that could kill your reptiles.


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## -Peter (Oct 28, 2011)

Rats groom themselves constantly, to treat them chemically would put the rats health at rsik. Its all rubbish. Attempts to put people off buying live rodents to feed to their snakes. Same people probably have vegan dogs and vegan cats that they let out.


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## JAS101 (Oct 28, 2011)

tweety2 said:


> we were told that u should freeze ur mice and rats for 3 months before feeding them to ur snakes that way any bad bacteria in the rodent is frozen out of it so ur snake doesnt get sick from eating it any truth to that???
> 
> cheers
> lisa


 nup i dont belive that , iv herd the same thing . half the time my lot get fresh killed and there all doing fine , infact i think your more likely going to run into issuesusing a frozen rat [ either the time it takes the rat to freeze , then the time it takes to thaw] compard to a fresh killed.


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## Bel03 (Oct 28, 2011)

-Peter said:


> Rats groom themselves constantly, to treat them chemically would put the rats health at rsik. Its all rubbish. Attempts to put people off buying live rodents to feed to their snakes. Same people probably have vegan dogs and vegan cats that they let out.



Im referring to them using 'lice/mite' sprays, worming treatments, & some 'nutrient' spray they put in their food........these are what's listed on the signs ive seen, & i would have just thought they cant be good for your snake. Either way though, i cant see the point in feeding a snake fresh killed $20 rats, when a frozen one would be no more half that.


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## Fuscus (Oct 28, 2011)

tweety2 said:


> we were told that u should freeze ur mice and rats for 3 months before feeding them to ur snakes that way any bad bacteria in the rodent is frozen out of it so ur snake doesnt get sick from eating it any truth to that???


It is considered best practise but most people who breed feed fresh killed - I do;



FAY said:


> I went to a pet shop in the city a while ago. They had a ign on their rat cages that they sprayed them with something, can't remember what, but they were unsuitable to feed to your snake. I think the rats cost about $20.00 each.
> I said to them that no reptile person would even pay that much for a rat to feed to their snake.
> 
> I think it is pet shop people saying whatever they want....bit like giving great reptile advice


I've encountered the sign too.
Also I have seen frozen rats for $19.95 :shock:

I've brought rats from pet shops. Once a girl asked if I was going to feed it and I said after it retires from breeding and her reply was "Oh - that's all right then"


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## ingie (Oct 28, 2011)

-Peter said:


> Rats groom themselves constantly, to treat them chemically would put the rats health at rsik. Its all rubbish. Attempts to put people off buying live rodents to feed to their snakes. Same people probably have vegan dogs and vegan cats that they let out.



Cats groom themselves constantly also, and they are still treated with topical flea and worm products. I have worked in a few pet stores and I have never heard of any authority chasing up info about what customers do with their rodents. However, we did regularly treat rodents with flea and mite products so that they were mite free before going to their new homes. You would be mad to feed a reptile a rodent that had recently been treated for mites- I can't imagine ingesting permethrin, pyrethrin and who knows what else would be good for them. I doubt companies that make the products would have done tests on how reptiles react to the ingredients. 

Pet shop rodents are usually expensive to deter kids from impulse buys, as well as live feeding. The only time they would be worthwhile for reptile people is when buying some new breeding animals.


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## -Peter (Oct 28, 2011)

I dont disagree with what most of you are saying. I am merely pointing out that the rodents are not treated with special chemicals to stop your snake eating them. In fact the parasite treatments would probaly not be an issue. 
The parasite treatments used on cats are to be ingested. They rely upon the grooming process to work.


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## GeckoJosh (Oct 28, 2011)

-Peter said:


> Rats groom themselves constantly, to treat them chemically would put the rats health at rsik. Its all rubbish. Attempts to put people off buying live rodents to feed to their snakes. Same people probably have vegan dogs and vegan cats that they let out.


Actually many pet shops treat their rodents with mite and mange spray upon arrival.
I know this as I have done it myself.


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## ingie (Oct 28, 2011)

They rely upon the oils of the skin to spread them over the mammal's body.. They do not work by being ingested, if that were the case you would simply give the animal a tablet, paste or liquid instead. Pet stores don't claim to put chemicals on rats specifically to make them unsuitable, it is just a precaution they take after treating them for mites. If a pet store treated rodents for mites and DIDN'T put up a sign informing customers who would potentially feed them to their reptiles, there would be outrage if a reptile became sick from it. How careful are people about the cleaning products and fumes they expose their animals to? Surely they need to know what treatments are on potential food items.

I don't know why people get so worked up about per stores refusing sales to people who want to live feed. I used to ask all my customers if the rodents were for food. Most of the people who said yes were tough guys who wanted a one off thrill from seeing their snake eat an adult live rodent. After explaining the possible dangers I was able to convince quite a few people that it wasn't a good idea. Those who came in wanting breeders always got what they wanted, and I even used to euthanise rodents for some customers so they could take them straight home to try fresh kill on fussy feeders. (Obviously not ones that had been mite treated).


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## -Peter (Oct 28, 2011)

The treatment is absorbed into the skin and it is also ingested during preening. Whether it does anything when ingested is moot. The fact is it is ingested.
The claim here is that some pet stores have stated that they treat their rodents with chemicals so that they cannot be fed to snakes. That inge speaks for the entire pet store industry is reassuring.


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## ingie (Oct 28, 2011)

Herpa Derp

Ah I misinterpreted what you were saying as 'treatments have to be ingested to work'. 

Just because something is safe for a mammal to ingest though doesn't mean it is safe for reptiles to ingest.



-Peter said:


> The claim here is that some pet stores have stated that they treat their rodents with chemicals so that they cannot be fed to snakes.



*Let's eat Grandma. 
*Let's eat, Grandma.

*These rodents have been chemically treated so they are not suitable to be fed to reptiles.
*These rodents have been chemically treated, so they are not suitable to be fed to reptiles.


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## mysnakesau (Oct 28, 2011)

In our fresh food training at work, we were told that freezing does not kill bacteria. In stops it spreading, but all it does is send the bacteria into dormancy. As soon as it thaws the bacteria becomes active to continue where it left off. Heat over 60c is the only thing that kills bacteria. Freezing will kill mites and their eggs. When ppl ask me about the little black beetles in their bird seed, I tell them to put the seed into air tight container or bag and freeze it over night. Unfortunately we cannot do this do our snakes to cure them of mites, without freezing the snakes, too.

I have resorted to the pet shop recently because I have no other way of getting food for my snakes. Yes there are ppl here like Wokka, but an order that I can afford at any one time, I am sure would be too small for anyone to want to freight. This week I bought larger rats for my bigger snakes - 6 rats and 8 mice cost me $106. Last week I spent $60 on mice and weaner rats, and the same week before.  Our only local supplier up here have been busy with other things so haven't been paying much attention to breeding the rodents. But my snakes are hungry so I bit the bullet and went to Pet Stock.

When I had my pet shop, everyone in town knew I have snakes. And I still had some ask me why were my frozen rodents cheaper to buy than the live ones. I told them straight out, live ones are pets, not snake food. 



Goldmember said:


> Actually many pet shops treat their rodents with mite and mange spray upon arrival.
> I know this as I have done it myself.



Is that the one in the red/white bottle? Fantastic product that. I only ever had to spray them once, and you would see huge improvement within 24 hours. Even the bites on them, from the mites healed really fast once the rotten blood suckers were gone.



Fuscus said:


> ....
> .... Once a girl asked if I was going to feed it ....."



Of course you're gonna feed it. Poor thing would die if you don't feed them.


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## GeckoJosh (Oct 29, 2011)

mysnakesau said:


> Is that the one in the red/white bottle? Fantastic product that. I only ever had to spray them once, and you would see huge improvement within 24 hours. Even the bites on them, from the mites healed really fast once the rotten blood suckers were gone.


Yeah there is a couple of brands that pet stores sell, they all seem to have the same active ingredients.
I don't use sprays any more as I know of a few breeders losing their stock from a bad batch not that long ago.
What I do use and recommend is either ivomectin or selemectin (selecmectin is the active ingredient in kitten Revolution, ivomectin is what farms use to treat livestock for parasites, also known as cattle dip)


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## ingie (Oct 29, 2011)

Does anyone know a safe withholding period for rodents treated with ivermectin?


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## littlemay (Oct 29, 2011)

I work at a pet store and you can tell when people are planning buy live; they don't care about the look, sex, personality of the animal, they just say 'one please' and head up to the counter. You would be surprised how truthful people are when you call them up on it, a lot of them sometimes feel quite embarrassed as they attempt to deceive you by saying 'ooooh that one it's so cute' in the weirdest, most fake way... once i had a man come in who wanted to buy a rat, as i was talking to him he let slip 'i've had a bad day, i want to see something die'. Needless to say i threw him out of the shop.


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## killimike (Oct 29, 2011)

On the original issue of the thread, it does sound very unlikely that "NPWS" would try to collect such info, and you be making a mistake in giving it.

But I'm not sure about how much of a difference petshops refusing to sell mice and rats for snake food really makes, and I don't think they do it for the right reasons usually. I think there are people out there like in littlemay's post, but I think it's far too easy to lump everyone into that category. How many of those people are unlicenced or exotic keepers anyway? Furthermore, I don't think that they are the primary reason for people's perceptions. I think people who like little cute mice will think those nasty slimey snakes are awful for eating mice, and whether you euthanise them humanely (By bashing their skulls in or suffocating them??) or feeding them live. And that snake keepers are just as nasty for making it happen.

It's also ironic to be judged by such a standard of knowledge and animal welfare as the local petshop


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## littlemay (Oct 29, 2011)

Just to clarify, i wasn't suggesting all people are like this, just that you can often tell when the degenerates come in. I'll usually question people who come in wanting live mice as to why they actually want them, seeing as they're more expensive than the frozen mice we sell. If people have problem feeders and have explored other avenues to no avail, or are looking to start breeding for food, i have no issues. But i would never sell to someone who planned to just chuck a mouse in with their snake for the hell of it, it's cruel, unnecessary and dangerous and i will always tell the customer so, even i come off as a massive bitch because of it.


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