# Culling off weak reptiles?



## Troy K. (Nov 12, 2010)

I see that there is a thread going on at the moment saying that there aren’t enough decent reptile discussions happening on this forum at the moment so I thought that I’ll put one up that I find interesting and would be interested in other peoples thoughts on the matter. 

I breed a few snakes every year and the hatchlings that I find aren’t up starch, either with kinks, problem feeders, or deformed in any way get culled off. I used to give these snakes away as pets with strict instructions that the snakes I give away are never to be bred or sold, as I believe that breeding weak snakes just creates more weak snakes, but after a few years I found that some of the snakes I’d given away had either been given away again or sold or even worse, been bred. 

What I’m wanting to know is how many other reptile breeders cull off their weak or deformed hatchling and if you don’t cull them off what do you do with them?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2010)

God forbid you do that Troy! You should get some interesting replies from the members. We are also going to get a veterinarian to cull what we deem to be non viable animals this season. We could also just drop them off to the authorities to re-home them for us.


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## JAS101 (Nov 12, 2010)

I am by no means a experenced breeder but if i was to breed any reptiles that have a deformaty or is weak ,and iam not going to keep it for its whole life then yes i would consider culling it/them off .


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## Bez84 (Nov 12, 2010)

I personally would cull any animal i thought wasnt going to have a good quality of life, be it from deformity or just a weak hatchling that was never ment to make it on its own.
I would how ever want to make an effort to see the culled hatchling was used perhaps to feed a reptile eater or something rather then just thrown in the bin.


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## Kalashnikov (Nov 12, 2010)

I have seen runts grow to be healthy adults and have seen healthy reptiles die.

Depends on the breeder I guess


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## Snake-Supplies (Nov 12, 2010)

I personally have a soft spot for the weak animals and ones with deformed limbs etc, 
Would you "cull" your own son or daughter cause she/he had a missing leg?
Two heads?

I know it has NOTHING to do with reptiles, 
but the dog we bought, was the runt of the litter... small, skinny, picked on...
yet she is the best dog we have ever owned... apart from her being a traitor at food time, she is quiet, yet playful at times, and just really damn good company.

I also bought a clown loach (fish) because it was getting picked on by the others and was very skinny, I get him cheap because they said it will most likely die... yet now, it's the better of the two I bought.

I think, personally...
If you are 100% certain that it's not going to recover it's going to die slowly and painfully then yes, you should.
But can you be 100% certain?

Give them the same love and appreciate that you give your other animals, love them for what they are, not what they should be.

That's my view anyway.


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## cadwallader (Nov 12, 2010)

i guess it depends how badly it is deformed but i dont think i would cull it as i am not breeding 100's of hatchlings i would just keep him as a pet.


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## tympanocryptis (Nov 12, 2010)

Gday Troy
In the past I have given animals away that are not up to scratch, only to latter see people try and sell these animals. Let me tell you that it really ******s me off. As breeders we need to ensure there is some quality control of our prodgeny. This will also help maintain value in good lines. From now on if its not up to scratch it is in the freezer!!


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## scorps (Nov 12, 2010)

I bet you receive about 100 pm's now Troy from people hitting you up for these animals promising they wont sell or breed


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 12, 2010)

Good topic for a thread Troy .
I feel this threads focus is mainly on deformities amongst offspring.
So yes i would cull offspring with deformities / kinks/ neuro issues etc.
My acception was last season when i hatched out a possible new morph displaying hypo like traits of a pink tongue and light blue eyes and neuro issues etc , this week and neuro jungle has managed to survive and thrive now .
But only after a lot of effort .
It is now doing well and she will always be my pet even if her looks do not prove to be a genetic morph.

Poor feeders ? , i keep them the longest to make sure they are feeding properly and then move them on .

Will the RPM/JAG breeders be culling any severe neuro cases in neonates this season ?




cheers
Roger


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## Snakewise84 (Nov 12, 2010)

i would do the same but take them to the vet to do as i would not be able to bring my self to do it. my olds use to do it the our birds if they deformed even to the rats i use to breed.


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## hornet (Nov 12, 2010)

I would have a hard time killing off deformed herps, not saying i wouldnt do it but it would be hard. If its something minor like a kink in the tail or even just a single promlem limb them i dont see any reason why they couldnt be given away as pets, good chance its not genetic so i wouldnt even see an issue with them being bred. Weak feeders. As roger said poor feeders can often turn out fine so they are another i wouldnt cull but it would be different with the breeders who are producing heaps of clutches and may not have the time to work on the weak feeders.

@ Josh, i dont think he is talking about culling smaller runty animals, if they feed fine, dont have any major deformities i dont see how a smaller then normal specimen is much of an issue, as said they can do just fine. Thanks for getting this going troy, be interesting what are some other peoples thoughts on this


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## Snake-Supplies (Nov 12, 2010)

[scorps] 

haha, yeah, I would be happy to take any deformed animal, I am only a beginner in the world of snakes but I give my snake alot of care and attention, while most people are sleeping I will occasionally get Scarlet out of her tank for a midnight wonder.

Insomnia make you do things that you never thought possible, who ever thought I would read a book?
haha.

[Hornet]
"aren’t up starch, either with kinks, problem feeders, or deformed in any way get culled off"

He never mentioned small animals.
He said, aren't up to scratch...

Trying to breed two striped jungles and not getting them, that's not up to scratch...
cull them all?

I'm always going to be on the Animals side here... I am going to be biased towards the issue of culling animals.
Just cause my TV has a missing button does not affect the performance, only the value.

I agree that they should not be bred though 100%
I will agree there.


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## D3pro (Nov 12, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Will the RPM/JAG breeders be culling any severe neuro cases in neonates this season ?


 
Question is, will that be all they will be culling? 

Ether way, if the culling is humane then sure. I would rather have an animal that's healthy and happy then an animal that could be the main attraction in a circus for back flipping.


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## zuesowns (Nov 12, 2010)

A question to be asked would be, what is the most humaine way to cull off offspring, due to de-formalities etc.

I am an animal lover, however, if they are deformed and would struggle to survive, unable to scent food for example, I wouldn't hesitate to cull to put the offspring at "rest"


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## Troy K. (Nov 12, 2010)

Good point Rodger about the RPM/JAGS. All of ours have been bought from parents showing no neuro problems. Will be interesting to see what happens with this but my understanding with the neruro problem in the jags is that they have to be put under a bit of stress to show any real sign of it. I could be wrong as we have only been working with them for a few years and still have plenty to learn about them.

Another good point with the new morph. When we are working on new morphs we will keep a weaker hatchling if it is showing signs of the traits that we are looking but with plans of breeding out the defects later, and as you know this process can take several years.


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## Allan (Nov 12, 2010)

About a year ago, I read something on the net about commercial US breeders culling off nonrodent feeders among their Corn snake hatchlings in order to outbreed this behaviour. I found that a bit disturbing. Some Corn snakes naturally start off their feeding with Anoles and oyher lizards just like some of our aussie pythons have a preference for skinks in the beginning. I wouldn't cull a tricky feeder, but a hatchling with any deformities that compromises its life would get the chop.
Good one Troy!!!


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## Bez84 (Nov 12, 2010)

Co2 gasing would prob be the most humane or if thats not available the severing of the spine always works, but only if you know the correct way to break an animals neck.


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## The_Dreaded_Pets (Nov 12, 2010)

as i am not a breeder this is just a matter of opinion but i do think it would be acceptable in extreem cases as roger said for minor cases i would probably keep them on board for awhile and see how they turnout before decideing on selling cheap/giveing away or culling.

as for runts i dont think troy ment these as there just minitures  my cat savage was a rung and my closest oldest pet she lived to 13yrs which is pretty good for cats and was teh size of a 6mnth old kitten  (never left the cute and cuddley size lol) i think the same would be said about almost all animals they may be smaller and possibly even a shorter lifespan but none the less they are just as good as the bigger pets.

i also think the animals culled should be done so hunmanly and given or sold to people owning reptile/snake eaters

as stated im not a breader and this is just my apinion wether others agree with it cheers


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## Troy K. (Nov 12, 2010)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> [scorps]
> 
> He never mentioned small animals.
> He said, aren't up to scratch...
> ...


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## zuesowns (Nov 12, 2010)

Troy K. said:


> JoshuaAtherton said:
> 
> 
> > [scorps]
> ...


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## Kristy_07 (Nov 12, 2010)

This thread seems to have separated the sheep from the goats, as such... small time breeders being able to spend the time on a problem feeder, the bigger time breeders choosing not to. I have no worries either way, but it does raise the question in my mind of whether we should be breeding animals if we don't have any time to spend on the individual offspring that are produced? Is it irresponsible to be breeding in such high number that the only choice is to cull the weak, because there's no time to be spent on their rehabilitation? This obviously doesn't apply to deformed animals, but poor feeders or minor deformities like a kinked tail are problems that can be solved with time and effort, or sold as a pet....? Just my thoughts...


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## Echiopsis (Nov 12, 2010)

I cull anything thats deformed, accurate whack with a hammer completely destroys the brain instantaneously. Hell of a a lot more humane than taking them to a vet who treats the thing like a pin cushion for 5 minutes looking for its heart.


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## waruikazi (Nov 12, 2010)

Neither of those are the best way to dispatch a snake. Snakes have such a low metabolism and can handle very low blood oxygen levels, as such gassing isn't effective. I have reead some articles that say breaking the neck or beheading can result in a dead body but live head. Again because of the low metabolism the head can survive (if i remember rightly it was about 20 mins) for a long time. 

Crushing the brain works best, it's fail safe and instant. Pithing i think is the technical term. I've always done it with a large hammer.



Bez84 said:


> Co2 gasing would prob be the most humane or if thats not available the severing of the spine always works, but only if you know the correct way to break an animals neck.


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## Bez84 (Nov 12, 2010)

I dont think problem feeders were mentioned as i wouldnt cull these, unless there already on death row.
Mainly bad deformities etc, but im sure some breeders working on specific traits cull undesirable animals to strengthen there blood lines before they release there new morphs onto the market down the track.
But most would agree you shouldnt cull things based on looks, even though when your driving around town and you see a ugly specimen that you think the world wouldnt miss if you mowed it down.....dont act like youve never thought about it...and if you havent then maybe your one of them lol.


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## Bez84 (Nov 12, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Neither of those are the best way to dispatch a snake. Snakes have such a low metabolism and can handle very low blood oxygen levels, as such gassing isn't effective. I have reead some articles that say breaking the neck or beheading can result in a dead body but live head. Again because of the low metabolism the head can survive (if i remember rightly it was about 20 mins) for a long time.
> 
> Crushing the brain works best, it's fail safe and instant. Pithing i think is the technical term. I've always done it with a large hammer.



Il remember that if i ever need to use it, large nail and hammer would work and be less messy.


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## impulse reptiles (Nov 12, 2010)

Sounds like you only really care about the money? if your breeding cheaper snakes doesn't seem a problem but as soon as RPM's or morphs/money are mentioned it's a different story.... nero problems might be considered weak? what about line breeding? that's creating weaker animals to an extent...

come on guys that recent thread said post less dribble.
unnecessary culling is as much as a joke as the keepers that do it....''i breed for a purpose''


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## ozziepythons (Nov 12, 2010)

Being pragmatic with time and resources, as many breeders are, if something has had a chance and its not going to be a viable specimen the situation will be dealt with. Its not pleasant and can be very upsetting at times, but snake keepers tend to be philosophical about the circle of life from keeping and feeding obligate predators.


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## Wookie (Nov 12, 2010)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> I personally have a soft spot for the weak animals and ones with deformed limbs etc,
> Would you "cull" your own son or daughter cause she/he had a missing leg?
> Two heads?


 
If I was allowed to . A human life isn't exactly equivalent to a snake life though so you can't really compare the two.


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## Troy K. (Nov 12, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> This thread seems to have separated the sheep from the goats, as such... small time breeders being able to spend the time on a problem feeder, the bigger time breeders choosing not to. I have no worries either way, but it does raise the question in my mind of whether we should be breeding animals if we don't have any time to spend on the individual offspring that are produced? Is it irresponsible to be breeding in such high number that the only choice is to cull the weak, because there's no time to be spent on their rehabilitation? This obviously doesn't apply to deformed animals, but poor feeders or minor deformities like a kinked tail are problems that can be solved with time and effort, or sold as a pet....? Just my thoughts...


 
I do disagree a little bit. I do have a descent size collection and breed a couple of hundred snakes every year, but this is what I do for a job (well this and the mag.) so I have plenty of time to spend with my collection.But by culling off the weak and deformed people know that when they buy one of my snakes that it is fit and healthy in every way. 

One thing I should clear up is when I say weak I don't mean a snake that refused a food item two weeks in a row, I mean a real problem feeder that I've spent time on that just will not kick in and is just getting weaker and weaker and is a real problem animal.


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## Wookie (Nov 12, 2010)

fusion said:


> Sounds like you only really care about the money? if your breeding cheaper snakes doesn't seem a problem but as soon as RPM's or morphs/money are mentioned it's a different story.... nero problems might be considered weak? what about line breeding? that's creating weaker animals to an extent...
> 
> come on guys that recent thread said post less dribble.
> unnecessary culling is as much as a joke as the keepers that do it....''i breed for a purpose''


 
Thats one opinion


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## smeejason (Nov 12, 2010)

Anyone that has ever had anything to do with breeding livestock be it snake, cattle, dogs or even cats and care for what they are doing know they have to cull the weak for their lines to remain strong. 
Personally would much rather buy a snake from a line that culls the weak than one that keeps them all and breeds with problem animals.


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## zuesowns (Nov 12, 2010)

smeejason said:


> Anyone that has ever had anything to do with breeding livestock be it snake, cattle, dogs or even cats and care for what they are doing know they have to cull the weak for their lines to remain strong.
> Personally would much rather buy a snake from a line that culls the weak than one that keeps them all and breeds with problem animals.


 
Would you be more comfortable purchasing python A - taking rats, never missed a feed age 6 months

or

Would you be more comfortable purchasing python B - problem feeder, refused feed until 2 months old, is assist feeding till 3 months old, now taking mice has been feeding 10 unassisted feeds

thats a good point.


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## Troy K. (Nov 12, 2010)

fusion said:


> Sounds like you only really care about the money? if your breeding cheaper snakes doesn't seem a problem but as soon as RPM's or morphs/money are mentioned it's a different story.... nero problems might be considered weak? what about line breeding? that's creating weaker animals to an extent...
> 
> come on guys that recent thread said post less dribble.
> unnecessary culling is as much as a joke as the keepers that do it....''i breed for a purpose''



I've culled both low and top end animals because they have had problems. As for calling me a joke, if it had came from someone that had a clue I might have taken offence, but seeing as though it came from you, no offence taken buddy.


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## impulse reptiles (Nov 12, 2010)

oh iv got more of a clue then you buddy...trust me.
your contradiction shows how much of a clue you have.


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## Chris1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> If I was allowed to . A human life isn't exactly equivalent to a snake life though so you can't really compare the two.



exactly, humans are so much more annoying and destructive,...i'd prefer to cull humans,....

the only animals that should be culled are those that will die a slow painful death anyway and 'culling' is just cutting down the time they have to suffer.

so glad i dont have space for many more critters, im getting to a point where i wouldnt know what breeders i could buy from with a clear conscience.


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## Scleropages (Nov 12, 2010)

Troy K. said:


> I see that there is a thread going on at the moment saying that there aren’t enough decent reptile discussions happening on this forum at the moment so I thought that I’ll put one up that I find interesting and would be interested in other peoples thoughts on the matter.
> 
> I breed a few snakes every year and the hatchlings that I find aren’t up starch, either with kinks, problem feeders, or deformed in any way get culled off. I used to give these snakes away as pets with strict instructions that the snakes I give away are never to be bred or sold, as I believe that breeding weak snakes just creates more weak snakes, but after a few years I found that some of the snakes I’d given away had either been given away again or sold or even worse, been bred.
> 
> What I’m wanting to know is how many other reptile breeders cull off their weak or deformed hatchling and if you don’t cull them off what do you do with them?



If I ever hatch something with two heads or tails I will keep it , as you know , haha
To date I haven't had to cull anything I have hatched... and only would if the animal wouldn't survive.
I have a few problem feeders from 2 seasons ago and wouldn't think of knocking them off! If you don't have time to work with problem feeders give them to me!


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## Wookie (Nov 12, 2010)

Chris1 said:


> exactly, humans are so much more annoying and destructive,...i'd prefer to cull humans,....
> 
> the only animals that should be culled are those that will die a slow painful death anyway and 'culling' is just cutting down the time they have to suffer.
> 
> so glad i dont have space for many more critters, im getting to a point where i wouldnt know what breeders i could buy from with a clear conscience.


 
Are you vegetarian? Not being accusatory, but it seems a bit naive. Culling deformed offspring is the most appropriate option. Why risk adding a faulty trait to the gene pool? Yes, in an ideal world where there are pixies and rainbows such measures wouldn't be necessary but the fact of the matter is we don't live in that world. It would cause more harm to the herp population with all deformed specimens not being culled and breeding, possibly passing on the deformity than it would to cull them as young.


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## buck (Nov 12, 2010)

For what it's worth my opinion is that there are definately cases where euthanising is the best thing to do.


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## Dipcdame (Nov 12, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> This thread seems to have separated the sheep from the goats, as such... small time breeders being able to spend the time on a problem feeder, the bigger time breeders choosing not to. I have no worries either way, but it does raise the question in my mind of whether we should be breeding animals if we don't have any time to spend on the individual offspring that are produced? Is it irresponsible to be breeding in such high number that the only choice is to cull the weak, because there's no time to be spent on their rehabilitation? This obviously doesn't apply to deformed animals, but poor feeders or minor deformities like a kinked tail are problems that can be solved with time and effort, or sold as a pet....? Just my thoughts...


 
Hear hear Kristy! It all boils down to who wants to play god really.


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## Chris1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Are you vegetarian? Not being accusatory said:


> was for 15 years, then the doc said i either had to take lots of supplements of eat red meat once a week, i eat a small portion of beef weekly
> its a bit if a struggle for me,...it is after all a disgusting chunk of dead animal muscle,..but i have to admit im alot less tired since i started, and the IBS has improved,..
> 
> i agree weak and deformed animals shouldnt be bred, but they can still enjoy a happy life as a pet....so maybe the humans that feel the need to breed everything are the ones who deserve to be culled,....


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## SnakeyTroy (Nov 12, 2010)

I think it is important to cull off the weak and deformed animals. this is what would happen in the wild. nature always naturally culls the weak animals so that the good genes are passed on for future generations and not the bad genes.
if we were breeding and selling inferior quality animals we would just end up with one big mess. It seems harsh but I feel its the best way.
for those worried that healthy animals might get culled I am pretty sure that most breeders would be very considerate as to which animals are culled. they are not going to cull a healthy animal as they would be hurting themselves financially.


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## scorps (Nov 12, 2010)

And there goes the typical aps pattern, a thread is opened up by a reptile keeper who is interested in discusing something other then how to look after bearded dragons (or whatever) and he openly asks for peoples oppinions and instead of the people who dont agree saying I dont agree theres people personally attacking the other side of the argument.

Not talking about any one in particular but this is a genuinly interesting thread so come on people please act like adults and try and be a bit mature (seems on this site the children are normally the mature ones)

Ben


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## ihaveherps (Nov 12, 2010)

I have had to cull hatchies.... maybe people miss the finer details in this shortened format, Troy not expanding to a case by case scenarios may have glossed over the processes involved in what is really a decision that no keeper wants to make, and it seems, even less will admit to. Any person who produces their fair share of clutches, will undoubtedly run into the occasional hatchy that wasn't designed to survive, and honestly, this number of poor doer's grows exponentially the larger the clutch sizes. 

I am no fool, and give my hatchys every opportunity to feed, scenting, cleaning, live pinks (awaiting the hoardes of flamers for that), mixed prey items, assisting tails, and even force feeding.... and sometimes all failed. I have bred animals that looked outwardly perfect, though as they deteriorated were culled, and opened for inspection had twisted bowels, easily visable, as their digestive tracts browned towards the vent, closer (magnified inspection) the twist can be located. The animal was clearly struggling, with an obvious effect on its appetite, and in this case was saved for a slow painful death. For all intensive reasons, this couldnt have been diagnosed by a vetrinarian, without invasive exploration.... take it to the vet I hear.... it was a 4g stimsons python, smaller than the average earthworm.

I dont think I need to defend my actions, though if there is to be debate.... lets see how many people will be honest about the animals they hatch, that are not eauthanised, and deteriorate until their demise, rather than culled humanely. I would gaurantee that most, if not all keepers have lost hatchies, though it seems few would make the decision to humanely put them out of their misery. If this thread is to be considered a decent cross-section of the community, then there are alot of cruel people out there.


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## ozziepythons (Nov 12, 2010)

I do know a couple of large scale (and smaller hobby sized) breeders who amaze me with their absolute willingness to stick it out with either deformed snakes; finicky and non feeders; the ones that come in not healthy and need rehabilitation; specimens that will need life long attention; and specimens that are not going to be breeders. I was wisely told by one breeder that there is much more to learn from such tricky to keep reptiles, more so than from healthy ones that require only general maintenance.


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## Wookie (Nov 12, 2010)

Chris1 said:


> was for 15 years, then the doc said i either had to take lots of supplements of eat red meat once a week, i eat a small portion of beef weekly
> its a bit if a struggle for me,...it is after all a disgusting chunk of dead animal muscle,..but i have to admit im alot less tired since i started, and the IBS has improved,..
> 
> i agree weak and deformed animals shouldnt be bred, but they can still enjoy a happy life as a pet....so maybe the humans that feel the need to breed everything are the ones who deserve to be culled,....


 
Glad to hear that . I genuinely am. And I conceed that they could live happily as a pet but, (bar keeping it yourself), you can not be ASSURED it won't be bred. Herein lies the problem. And for some breeders it isn't feasible to keep every deformed animal back as pets. I'm sure during the selective breeding of all the morphs and patterns we have today there would have been quite a few retards, leaving breeders with a shed full of snakes that could live for 20+ years. This is not economically viable and would also take a lot of time and effort.


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## Minka (Nov 12, 2010)

For all the bleeding hearts who seem to want to clutch at straws and make this thread into a moral debate, selling animals with a defect or animals which have failed to thrive despite repeated attempts is unethical. Most new keepers lack the finesse and experinace to persist or re establish problem animals. Selling off weaker/problem animals into certain people's hands isnt necessarily a kinder option than euthanising them.


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## wokka (Nov 12, 2010)

I think it is likely that faults and deformities occur more often in animals of captive origin because we, the keepers, interupt the natural selection which occur in the wild. In the wild deformed animals are "culled" naturally but in captivity we save everything. At what point do you draw the line? No-one want bitey snakes so do they get the thumbs down for bad temperament. A previous post mentioned culling for failing to feed on rodents. A lot of keepers don't want to cull but are happy to pass on the problem to others for free. Does passing on animals with problems only matter if money changes hands? If they are free it is alright? Breeders need to make the hard decisions rather than just passing the problem on down the line and take responsibility for there charges!


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## ntvnm (Nov 12, 2010)

:shock: fusion knows more then you lot put together.


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## mrs_davo (Nov 12, 2010)

Just my two bobs worth, if it is worth anything to anybody.
I would have no problems culling a reptile or any animal for that matter if it was not up to my top standard. The reason I justify this to myself is that I bred them in captivity & are therefor under my control. If something that I bred unnaturaly has a deformity I believe that it is my right to cull the animal from further peril or to avoid some one else breeding with this reptile to increase the problem.

Cheers Ian


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## mrs_davo (Nov 12, 2010)

Lets face it. If this happened in the wild or natural state, these animals would be culled by NATURE.
Cheers again.


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## Bez84 (Nov 12, 2010)

ian_davo said:


> Lets face it. If this happened in the wild or natural state, these animals would be culled by NATURE.
> Cheers again.


 well said.


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## tc2233 (Nov 12, 2010)

I breed blue tongues and this year i have ended up with a bluey that has a weak jaw and it only licks its food. I have kept it because i was assuming no one would buy it. I never thought of culling it because i thought it was illegal. Its about half the size that it should be. If anyone wants it give me a pm.


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## giggle (Nov 12, 2010)

I am glad you started this thread 

Just the other day I was wondering why people persist with poor doers... going to the ends of the earth to save them... when in reality in the wild they very naturally and very rightly would have perished. 

As a breeder of dogs, my aim was to always breed the healthiest animals. This meant, when a bitch needed a caesar due to uterine inertia I had her desexed at the same time and all her progeny was desexed and sold as pets. Any time I have had a fading puppy, I have nutured it and then desexed it and sold it as a pet.

Because desexing reptiles really isnt a realistic option, I think as a responsible breeder culling weak stock is the most responsible and reasonable course of action. The other responsible course of action, would be to keep the weak progeny yourself. That would just be unrealistic, as you would soon have no room to continue breeding. I agree, giving away weak animals is too risky. As a responsible breeder you would be horrified to find out one you entrusted to another had been bred.

I think once we start taking the course of nature into our own hands, we have a responsibility to make sure we are doing so responsibly... and perpetuating weakness is not natural. Personally, I would cull. And I have the highest respect for those that do cull humanely... especially if they are employing a veterinarian for the purpose as this would be an expensive undertaking depending on how many need to be euthanised.


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## Perko (Nov 12, 2010)

Well if we knew who fusion was that might make a difference, i got sent a friend request from him & asked the question. Seems he's just Fusion!!!!! Oh, Fusion, Im Craig Perkins, nothing to hide here.

As for culling animals, i have no problem with it.



ntvnm said:


> :shock: fusion knows more then you lot put together.


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## mrs_davo (Nov 12, 2010)

This is exactly right, & where are the two headed turtles in the wild. Imagine trying to feed a hungry two headed carpet python.
The only reason why color variations exist is because we produce them under our control in captivity.


giggle said:


> I am glad you started this thread
> 
> Just the other day I was wondering why people persist with poor doers... going to the ends of the earth to save them... when in reality in the wild they very naturally and very rightly would have perished.
> 
> ...


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## dragonboy69 (Nov 12, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> This thread seems to have separated the sheep from the goats, as such... small time breeders being able to spend the time on a problem feeder, the bigger time breeders choosing not to. I have no worries either way, but it does raise the question in my mind of whether we should be breeding animals if we don't have any time to spend on the individual offspring that are produced? Is it irresponsible to be breeding in such high number that the only choice is to cull the weak, because there's no time to be spent on their rehabilitation? This obviously doesn't apply to deformed animals, but poor feeders or minor deformities like a kinked tail are problems that can be solved with time and effort, or sold as a pet....? Just my thoughts...


 
well said totally agree


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## giggle (Nov 12, 2010)

Dipcdame said:


> Hear hear Kristy! It all boils down to who wants to play god really.



You ARE playing god if you breed. Thats the simple fact. And once you bring those lives into this world,_ you have a responsibility for each and every one of them_.

If you 'rehabilitate' a problem feeder.... and then sell or give that animal away... _you are giving away your responsibility_! 
Which is very unethical, whether the new owner knows about the animals difficulties or not. 
If that person then goes on to breed that animal and it further produces even more problem feeders or animals with kinks or whatever the problem happens to be... _then you are responsibly for every single one of those babies_. What if they are in the hands of someone inexperienced and all those babies suffer as they slowly die. _You_ did that. _You _caused their suffering. 

Unfortunately this is a subject I am incredibly passionate about. So I will try not to sound too harsh. But allowing the opportunity to perpetuate a problem makes you an irresponsible breeder, fullstop. No ifs, buts or maybe. Once you no longer control that animal, it shows you do not care about your responsibility. Clearly those long experienced breeders have learnt that culling is necessary... because you just can not trust the word of other people. And you can't trust them with what is your responsibility.

If you want to rehabilitate animals and nurture the weak... then you need to then keep that animal yourself for the entirety of its life! To do anything else, no matter what kind of fairy dust you sprinkle over it, is unethical.


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## giggle (Nov 12, 2010)

Death is not the worst thing that could happen to an individual. 
A painful existence is not something I would want to subject anyone to. Just because their little faces do not contort with the pain of hunger, or the pain of being force fed... does not mean it is not there. Have you ever had spinal problems? Remember the pain of it? Imagine having a kink in your spine.


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## cris (Nov 12, 2010)

If the fault is likely to be genetic i think culling is the best option (this includes jags IMO probably best to leave debating that out of this thread though), if the problem is minor and possibly envirnomentally caused eg. incubation problems or something its a bit more complex. If something appears to be living fine without an apparent hassles but has slight problems due to something like incubation problems(eg. a kinked tail), as far as i know it can most likely reproduce without causing any negative influence to the offspring. So in that case culling would only be ideal if the animal is suffering or not wanted.

I feel more comfortable killing a reptile with problems than a completely healthy rat.


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## mrs_davo (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't know what has been unleashed here, but remember ONE THING we breed these animals in captivity away from nature & that is why there is such a high survival rate. IF it were not for the breeder controling his/her breeding efforts & stock than these young would not even exist. As I said earlier in the wild or NATURE these would have been culled naturally by preditors.

I certianly am not a sadist, but real recognition has to be given to breeders all over here. If we kept stuff that was deformed, due to someones comfort, What sort of pet trade would we have now.
FOR SALE snake with no bottom jaw, but eats ok when shoved in his mouth. FOR SALE turtle with two heads, ok to feed but does not know which way to turn. HA HA


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## Wookie (Nov 12, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> :shock: fusion knows more then you lot put together.


 
How do you know that without knowing who anybody is? I see flaws in your logic..... Just because I don't agree with the almighty "fusion", does not at all mean I'm not as smart. I'm confident in my intellectual capacity.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 12, 2010)

wokka said:


> I think it is likely that faults and deformities occur more often in animals of captive origin because we, the keepers, interupt the natural selection which occur in the wild. In the wild deformed animals are "culled" naturally but in captivity we save everything. At what point do you draw the line? No-one want bitey snakes so do they get the thumbs down for bad temperament. A previous post mentioned culling for failing to feed on rodents. A lot of keepers don't want to cull but are happy to pass on the problem to others for free. Does passing on animals with problems only matter if money changes hands? If they are free it is alright? Breeders need to make the hard decisions rather than just passing the problem on down the line and take responsibility for there charges!


 
Well said. Euthanising is a much better option then passing off problem animals.


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## Flaviruthless (Nov 12, 2010)

The problem is that even if you do pass on a problem animal to someone who says they aren't interested in breeding, later down the track they may be. I have not bred any animals (other than fish) as of yet but when I do I will assume all responsibility for them and I know that if I passed on an animal with deformities and knew it had been bred I would feel terrible. 

Regardless of what is said here, keepers will do as they wish in their own homes. If you choose to cull, I think you would know what you are doing; killing any animal is not a simple choice. If you choose not to cull I ask you how many times you will continue to breed your animals and how you intend to keep them and feed them for the entirety of their lives.


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## xxMelissaxx (Nov 12, 2010)

cris said:


> I feel more comfortable killing a reptile with problems than a completely healthy rat.



^ Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

In order to debate this logically, people need to be objective - many are failing at this throughout the thread because they cannot see past their love for reptiles.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 12, 2010)

Hmmm, just read an entire thread, first time in months! Good topic, good read and good explanations to opinions given.


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## pythons73 (Nov 13, 2010)

Very interesting topic indeed...As for problem feeders as such..I got a 12month old Green that had to be forced fed,the breeder couldnt get it eating,(got 100s feeding previuosly)...The first night i brought it home i was feeding 1 of my snakes in the quaranteen room,the green must of smelled the quail,long story short it ate the quail head,a second as this green was tiny..5days later i did the same,however i rubbed the quail head onto a pinkie,ate 2 that night...Now 13months on this green in Q hasnt looked backed,eats everytime...Some difficult feeders just need a different enviroment to get them going,works for some...At what point can you say there a difficult feeder that needs forced fed,and i havent the time,so euth is best.....


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## wokka (Nov 13, 2010)

pythons73 said:


> Very interesting topic indeed...As for problem feeders as such..I got a 12month old Green that had to be forced fed,the breeder couldnt get it eating,(got 100s feeding previuosly)...The first night i brought it home i was feeding 1 of my snakes in the quaranteen room,the green must of smelled the quail,long story short it ate the quail head,a second as this green was tiny..5days later i did the same,however i rubbed the quail head onto a pinkie,ate 2 that night...Now 13months on this green in Q hasnt looked backed,eats everytime...Some difficult feeders just need a different enviroment to get them going,works for some...At what point can you say there a difficult feeder that needs forced fed,and i havent the time,so euth is best.....


I have heard similar stories of getting animals feeding with skinks. The hobby in Australia is now going mainstream which means that keepers are not necessarily knowledgeable enthusiast but rather pet owners who know the basics.I guess aps represents a very small percentage of reptile keepers and , dare i say, the more knowledgeable ones. Most pet keepers are drawn to reptiles because of there novelty and simplicity in care. They dont want to have to get freshly killed head of quail or pulsing lizards tails to feed their pet. We should be breeding the mainstream animals which are easy to care for not the finicky animals on the fringes.
I wonder when I will get my next enquiry from someone wanting to keep a Thorny Devil?


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 13, 2010)

very nice thread, im a complete newbie to this having acquired my 1st snake this year, 
this is an area i didnt even think of when looking at breeding/breeders and after reading every response i will just say this,
(just an opinion and i could be WAY off here)
You can not have a bleeding heart for deformed or super weak animals, people who breed reptiles 
are breeding wildlife animals this isnt a dog or cat or human its a reptile that lets face it isnt your regular pet
we are replicating a natural environment at all times and a natural environment has a selection process to filter the gene pool
risking the gene pool by keeping these animals because you think its cruel to humanly cull them is dangerous in the long run,
i highly doubt any other animal breeders would keep/sell an animal with 3 legs and a warped jaw etc etc.

could some of the way more experienced breeders post some pics of the deformations/week animals so newer keepers and people who dont breed can SEE just how bad were talking here in regards to deformations and such n such?


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## kupper (Nov 13, 2010)

I think as keepers it is a conflicting issue between duty of care and the responsibility to the hobby

Both parts dictate that we should nurture and 
care for anything in our collections be it great and small BUT the second half requires you to play god so to speak , culling those that are genetically faltered , birth defected or otherwise NQR

I for one have no problems in euthanizing those animals that need to be regardless of the pet potential 

If you wouldn't keep the animal yourself why would you want to pass it over to someone else ?

One thing that may not have been covered is the potential bad stigma that may be attched to your line if your NQR animals are constantly given away


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## smeejason (Nov 13, 2010)

Dipcdame said:


> Hear hear Kristy! It all boils down to who wants to play god really.


 
I would much rather play the easter bunny as i find it a much more realistic fairy tale.....
Is funny that a lot of people want their reptiles kept so they live lives as close to natural but, when it comes to doing what nature dictates and that is killing the weak, you freak out and pull the old chestnut
"you must only be in it for the money"


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## FAY (Nov 13, 2010)

I have not had to cull as yet, but would if needed. I have had some weak animals born but have passed on their own.
I also had a diamond hatchie that I assist fed for 14 months!! Then one day it's whole attitude changed,smashed it's food and never looked back....


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## JasonL (Nov 13, 2010)

Dipcdame said:


> It all boils down to who wants to play god really.


 
I guess that depends if you are religious or not.
Personally I have no problem in killing something, where do "you" (to all members) draw the line? Rare animals? Furry cute mammals? Pets? Reptiles? Fish? Insects? Humans? there is a line there somewhere, it's just people have different opinions on where it should be.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2010)

I wonder who owns the rule book that says we can't cull weak and fussy snakes? Can snakes afford to be fussy in the wild?


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 13, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I wonder who owns the rule book that says we can't cull weak and fussy snakes? Can snakes afford to be fussy in the wild?


+1 its about natural selection,
to give animals as close to a natural environment means culling the odd animal or 2 its harsh but a reality to protect the gene pool.


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## JasonL (Nov 13, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I wonder who owns the rule book that says we can't cull weak and fussy snakes? Can snakes afford to be fussy in the wild?


 
Term the word "fussy feeder" for me, a hatchy antaresia (or any other snake) that refuses rodents and will eat skinks readily isn't fussy imo, nor is a snake that doesn't really adapt to a captive environment and won't eat as such. At the end of the day we need to decide why we keep reptiles for? for money? education? or for your enjoyment?... we are certainly doing the individual animal no favours by keeping it, and the species no favours by breeding them... but if we do decide to keep and breed them then we have to have a line drawn as to when it's time and reason to kill them, such is life.


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## nagini-baby (Nov 13, 2010)

is there a way to cull humanely without smashing their heads in?? pm me pls. im truly interested


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## waruikazi (Nov 13, 2010)

Bez84 said:


> Il remember that if i ever need to use it, large nail and hammer would work and be less messy.



Not nail, just the hammer.


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## giggle (Nov 13, 2010)

JasonL said:


> I guess that depends if you are religious or not.
> Personally I have no problem in killing something, where do "you" (to all members) draw the line? Rare animals? Furry cute mammals? Pets? Reptiles? Fish? Insects? Humans? there is a line there somewhere, it's just people have different opinions on where it should be.



You are completely correct here  But lines don't even come into it in some peoples minds. I don't debate where people draw the line, this is their own personal preference and what they feel they can live with in the end. To me, where the line is drawn, is not open for debate. That is a very personal area.

However... some say rehabilitate and then give away or sell or otherwise move on. Uhuh... no way. Passing off responsibility, allowing a potential problem to be perpetuated is completely unethical no matter how good your intentions are. If those that dont agree with culling don't want to cull, they need to be responsible for the animals they have produced for the entirety of that animals life. If they cant hack it, they shouldn't breed.


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## spongebob (Nov 13, 2010)

giggle said:


> You are completely correct here  But lines don't even come into it in some peoples minds. I don't debate where people draw the line, this is their own personal preference and what they feel they can live with in the end. To me, where the line is drawn, is not open for debate. That is a very personal area.
> 
> However... some say rehabilitate and then give away or sell or otherwise move on. Uhuh... no way. Passing off responsibility, allowing a potential problem to be perpetuated is completely unethical no matter how good your intentions are. If those that dont agree with culling don't want to cull, they need to be responsible for the animals they have produced for the entirety of that animals life. If they cant hack it, they shouldn't breed.


 
+1

Details of how to cull can be found here:

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-discussion-42/humane-methods-euthanusing-reptiles-143531/


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## Nagraj (Nov 13, 2010)

It is misleading and in fact completely incorrect to use the terms "natural selection" and "in the wild" in this discussion.


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## nicholaskostyk (Nov 13, 2010)

if a snake has a kink or lump in it 
i dont belive it should be culled off i know someone who owns a jungle that was given to him as a hatchling just because it had a lump on its body and now its full grown and living a very happy life 
so i dont belive in culling animals of and type just because they are different 
il'd be happy to take any animals that are different


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 13, 2010)

were not talking about a slight kink in a tail here were talking about animals with major issues, major deformation and animals that need to be force fed etc etc.
whens the last time u saw a dog/cat/bird or what ever breeder selling or giving away an animal with half a bottom jaw or only 2 legs or a paralyzed animal or an animal so skinny its a walking skeleton from refusing food? 
hate to tell ya this but they get killed off.


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## giggle (Nov 13, 2010)

NatoRey said:


> were not talking about a slight kink in a tail here were talking about animals with major issues, major deformation and animals that need to be force fed etc etc.
> whens the last time u saw a dog/cat/bird or what ever breeder selling or giving away an animal with half a bottom jaw or only 2 legs or a paralyzed animal or an animal so skinny its a walking skeleton from refusing food?
> hate to tell ya this but they get killed off.


 
Funny that isn't it. Because species such as dogs and cats can clearly show pain and discomfort to us... and the appearance of a dog with only half a jaw is really shocking...
They are most certainly born. And they are most certainly euthanised as soon as possible. 

I haven't had any deformed puppies, but I know people that have. A lot of breeders also euthanise their "fading puppies", a fading puppy is essentially the same thing as fussy/non-eating snakes. 
They just dont have a feeding response, so they just dont eat and they slowly painfully die from hunger (some breeders just allow them to die slowly from their hunger without intervention!! Horribly cruel.). 
If you nurture these puppies, they eventually start to eat (at about 6-8 weeks). There is always the odd breeder who not only nurtures these pups but then 'forgets' that they were once a fading puppy, sells them on to someone else who breeds them and gets a bunch of fading puppies in their litter... and so the problem is perpetuated. I personally nurture the pup and then have it desexed. But thats not a realistic option for reptile breeders. No matter what, you cant trust someone else with your responsibility 
Some breeders end up with whole litters of fading puppies or puppies they need to supplement. Because they let a couple live and reproduce... the issue becomes wide spread. Personally, any issues the pup is desexed and sold as a pet.


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## dragonboy69 (Nov 13, 2010)

giggle said:


> Funny that isn't it. Because species such as dogs and cats can clearly show pain and discomfort to us... and the appearance of a dog with only half a jaw is really shocking...
> They are most certainly born. And they are most certainly euthanised as soon as possible.
> 
> I haven't had any deformed puppies, but I know people that have. A lot of breeders also euthanise their "fading puppies", a fading puppy is essentially the same thing as fussy/non-eating snakes.
> ...


 
Well my opinion is that yes in the wild only the stong survive.But in captivity the weak will survive because they are not being hasseled by the strong.So there is no need for you to cull them. Talking about dogs cats horses etc if they have deformed offsprigs im sure that possiblly the vet would cull thenm as he would be by law be able to do it. Were as if you or I did it it would be illegal as thats animal cruelty as we are not licenced to do it . I might be wrong but im just thinking common sense. So if you cull yourself what do you put down in the book laid just say 20 eggs culled 5 for being deformed.How do you explain that when you hand in you books to the appropiate authorities im curious.If the RSPCA find out about it try fighting them in court who would win Id wonder.But if the vet culled them then im sure you would be ok as they are licenced to do it and your not.Also what would happen when you have a child say born with dissabilities do you cull them no you wouldnt but you might give them up for addoption or give them to appropiate care ie specialised care mental/dissability hospitals just a couple of examples sorry dont mean to be rude ok.Why because you cant look after them so give your reptiles to appropiate careers.So how would you no if they are gernuine carers ask aruond such as animal organisations or interview prospective carers such as good reputable dog breeders do to future buyers.Why because if you have a good bloodline healthy obidient dogs they the breeders are looking good and they have a good name. But if they sell it to say Crazy Bob down the road without asking him questions.That person abusises the dog and makes it into a crazy dog and bites some kid the breeder feels bad and looks bad because he diddnt question the owner to find out if he was cappable of looking after the animal and that he was not responsible.So why did he sell it to him for without asking him questions because the breeder was not a responsible breeder either.Sorry if im of track but my opinion is if its culled by a vet its ok.If not just look after it or give it to appropiate care and ask questions make sure they are responsible cause if they are responsible and they care they wont be breeding those animals . If you cull yourself I beleivee that is animal cruelty thats just my opinion ok so dont crusify me for stating my opinions ok sorry for the spelling ok


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## beeman (Nov 13, 2010)

dragonboy69 said:


> Well my opinion is that yes in the wild only the stong survive.But in captivity the weak will survive because they are not being hasseled by the strong.So there is no need for you to cull them. Talking about dogs cats horses etc if they have deformed offsprigs im sure that possiblly the vet would cull thenm as he would be by law be able to do it. Were as if you or I did it it would be illegal as thats animal cruelty as we are not licenced to do it . I might be wrong but im just thinking common sense. So if you cull yourself what do you put down in the book laid just say 20 eggs culled 5 for being deformed.How do you explain that when you hand in you books to the appropiate authorities im curious.If the RSPCA find out about it try fighting them in court who would win Id wonder.But if the vet culled them then im sure you would be ok as they are licenced to do it and your not.Also what would happen when you have a child say born with dissabilities do you cull them no you wouldnt but you might give them up for addoption or give them to appropiate care ie specialised care mental/dissability hospitals just a couple of examples sorry dont mean to be rude ok.Why because you cant look after them so give your reptiles to appropiate careers.So how would you no if they are gernuine carers ask aruond such as animal organisations or interview prospective carers such as good reputable dog breeders do to future buyers.Why because if you have a good bloodline healthy obidient dogs they the breeders are looking good and they have a good name. But if they sell it to say Crazy Bob down the road without asking him questions.That person abusises the dog and makes it into a crazy dog and bites some kid the breeder feels bad and looks bad because he diddnt question the owner to find out if he was cappable of looking after the animal and that he was not responsible.So why did he sell it to him for without asking him questions because the breeder was not a responsible breeder either.Sorry if im of track but my opinion is if its culled by a vet its ok.If not just look after it or give it to appropiate care and ask questions make sure they are responsible cause if they are responsible and they care they wont be breeding those animals . If you cull yourself I beleivee that is animal cruelty thats just my opinion ok so dont crusify me for stating my opinions ok sorry for the spelling ok


 
It is not illegal to humainly destroy an animal at all!, Those of us that are 
primary producers (farmers) are faced with having to put animals down as part 
of our work! I see no difference in this instance either!

Provided it is done quickly, cleanly and humainly there is nothing the glorafied
idiots that call themselves the RSPCA can do about it!


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## J-A-X (Nov 13, 2010)

sorry for the large post, but this is the RSPCA AUSTRALIA ANIMAL CHARTER. individual states may have other limitations, i didnt look that far. I included the entire charter so i can be accused of taking something out of context. this is not just for primary producers. this is for ALL animal owners.


_Animals have an intrinsic value of their own and, accordingly, must be considered to possess the right to live in a way which enables them to have a positive life and to develop and enjoy their inherent qualities_
_No animal should be used for the production of food or fibre, either by farming practice, transportation, or method of slaughter which in any way may cause suffering, injury or distress._
_No animal should be used for sport or the entertainment of humans when such use may increase the risk of injury, suffering or distress to the animals, or is contrary to its nature._
_Animals should not be used in direct combat, either one against the other or in warfare._
_Animals should not be used in experiments which inflict pain or suffering upon them and which are not essential for the benefit of humans or animals. The use of animals should be replaced by reliable alternative techniques immediately they become available._
*No animal should be used in excessive breeding programs or programs which produce deformed or weak offspring.*
_Domestic animals must be effectively protected from adverse weather conditions, predators and disease._
_Domestic animals must be kept in such a way which will enable them to socialise, move freely, stretch, lie down, and have access to clean water, a suitable balanced food supply, and to prophylactic and corrective medicines._
_Native animals and birds should be maintained safely in their natural environment and should be free from hunting, trapping and captivity. Culling may occur, but only when proven necessary for the preservation and benefit of the species. Culling must only be carried out under proper supervision and control._
_*Any animal suffering from disease, injury, or debilitation, must be given first aid or appropriate veterinary attention quickly. If the affliction cannot be cured, or if it involves permanent and serious disability, the animal must be humanely destroyed.*_
_The State shall enact and enforce laws, regulations and codes for protecting animals from exploitation, and for ensuring that their basic individual needs are maintained at all times and that their environment is kept free from illegal or irresponsible intrusion._
_The State shall also develop and implement suitable educational programs or ensure that human responsibility and their duty of care towards animals is taught in all schools and in the wider community._
To me, point 6 is saying that you should not knowingly breed from deformed or weak offspring. So if deformed or weak offspring are produced (even a 'one of' )they should not be onsold to further produce deformed of weak offspring. Given that we cannot neuter pythons then there is only one alternative. culling.


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 13, 2010)

I believe that those who are against humane culling, euthanasia are to weak to accept it as their responsibility when caring for animals. Rather than go through the distress of having to make the decision to take the animals life into their own hands they would allow an animals suffering while still feeling their conscience is clear.


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## J-A-X (Nov 13, 2010)

dragonboy69 said:


> I agree 100% with you about primary producers ie farmers can destroy as per your work but try arguing it with them about your reptiles im not saying im 100% right but dont think you would win in that instance. I dont agree 100% with the RSPCA *but I beleive we got to follow the law*.So That means we cant cull only a vet can cull unless your a primary producer.



This was why i posted the charter. you were under the impression that it was illegal to cull your own animals in certain circumstances, unless you were a vet or primary producer



dragonboy69 said:


> *who is arguing the point about selling the offsprings I agree dont sell it or breed it off load it to who can take appropiate care im sure sensible people here will take them off you and not breed them or if not then take them to the vet to cull them appropiately*



there was a comment made about selling off the deformed or weak offspring, the danger then is that we cannot guarantee that somewhere down the track they will not be part of a breeding program, and it is not possible to desex these individuals. so therefore according to the charter, they should be culled.


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 13, 2010)

i think alot of people here are missing a major point, were not talking about culling of animals that just dont look good were talking about animals with MAJOR deformity's and weakness that would/could effect the gene pool in a bad way.
i very much doubt any "sensible" person could look after an animal that cant hardly move or has heavy skull/jaw problems etc etc
also i think its worse to keep an animal alive when its quality of life is very bad


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## giggle (Nov 13, 2010)

dragonboy69 said:


> *who is arguing the point about selling the offsprings I agree dont sell it or breed it off load it to who can take appropiate care im sure sensible people here will take them off you and not breed them or if not then take them to the vet to cull them appropiately*



No. It is a breeders responsibility to take care of the animals they breed for its entire life. They can not do that if they give it away. Here is an example for you...

I used to work in rescue. I used to rescue animals and find homes for them. At first, I did this for free. Until I saw what happens to those free animals. In very rare cases, there are excellent people who look after that animal until the day it dies. These cases are RARE. Most people who do not pay for an animal, do not value its existence. Or they see a way to make '_a quick buck_'. Or they are misguided and think _"he has such a lovely personality though and thats all that matters when you have a pet! Im going to breed him!"_

I gave away a lovely little dog to a sweet couple who promised never to breed her, to have her desexed, to love her and let her sleep on the bed etc etc. I believed them, they seemed like the loveliest people you can imagine! For a couple of months I got photos! I was pleased, I felt I made the right choice for her. Then the emails stopped. Then, I couldnt track them down... they had even moved.
Three years later... the dog is dropped on my doorstep in a tiny little crate... I took her inside and opened the door. She wouldnt come out. I left her for a bit... the smell wasn't nice.. I left the door open hoping she would come out. By that evening she was still in there. I gentely pulled her out... she was terrified. And I was horrified. She was caked in dirty, or droppings, it was hard to tell. Her fur was matted to her skin and full of prickles. She screamed everytime I touched her. Her tail was matted to the back of her legs. It wasn't until 12 that night... about four hours of washing and clipping and very careful grooming... until she was moderately clean. Her ears were oozing, she had terrible case of ear mites and there were sores all over her body from the filth she was covered in. She had even had two litters of crossbred puppies.
Months later after rehabilitation... she was the most outgoing dog I ever met. The horror she must have endured during her time away from us, I can not imagine!

So no... giving away animals is not an option. People may be utterly believable in their promises to do this and that... but you can never know when situation might change... or what they are truly thinking and not saying.


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## giggle (Nov 13, 2010)

steve1 said:


> I believe that those who are against humane culling, euthanasia are to weak to accept it as their responsibility when caring for animals. Rather than go through the distress of having to make the decision to take the animals life into their own hands they would allow an animals suffering while still feeling their conscience is clear.



Indeed! It takes strength to do it... and it is heartbreaking.


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## Echiopsis (Nov 13, 2010)

dragonboy69 said:


> yes fair enough but sometimes fault from being linebreed may show up later on down the line what happens then please explain who is responsible then ok and dont get angry as I think im asking a sensible question were would it stop the responsibility of the breeder. I think that once you have let it go the responsibility that you had with the animal is finished with you. That is as longh as you have been honest.


 
You need to stop thinking, youll hurt yourself or some unsuspecting bystander with all that brain function. What started as a thread worth reading is deteriorating into dribble directly due to what your typing. Give up.


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

Hey dragonboy, I will give a go at answering you on this, but it does seem you are just looking for a way to disagree and justify your thoughts 
_
Every breeder has the responsibility for what they produce_. 

Therefor once a healthy animal is in the hands of another breeder, that other breeder now has the responsibility for the stock he/she produces! 
Its common sense really lol Otherwise we would all be blaming our predecessors and no one would get anywhere.
If the animal produces offspring with inheritable conditions, testing to prove the source would need to be done and then a replacement may be offered. 
It is up to both breeders to act responsibly in the case of a serious inheritable defect. First the owner of the animal needs to contact the original breeder and be honest about the extent of the issue, the breeding and the environmental influences. The original breeder may then request test breedings depending on the condition, to determine whether the origin was the animal he/she produced. Some wont even bother with test breedings and simply replace the animal... it all depends on how important the lines are of that animal.
I'm speaking from the point of view of a dog breeder here though... I have no snake breeding experience... But I believe that snakes do not have the many varying and complex heritable diseases that dogs have.

You also have to understand that some things are loosely heritable. This means a predisposition may be there, but the condition itself is not heritable. 
For example, an otherwise lovely female may produce one or two offspring out of 100 that have a congenital kink in their tail. Not all her offspring are affected. She herself should not be eliminated from breeding as the majority of her offspring are in perfect condition. Those offspring that do have kinks though, you can bet the percentage of their offspring with kinks would likely be higher. It is not a heritable condition as such, but the predisposition being there, you would with each clutch, weed out the weaker animals and therefor increase the overall strength of your line. Its breeding 101 really  If you are interested in breeding you might want to do a little research into genetics and also congenital defects.


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

BTW even in dogs, it is not the linebreeding itself that is detrimental to the animals health. 
Done correctly, it produces healthier animals than outcrossing. 

Look at lab rats for example. They are severely inbred to increase their health and vigor.  Pet rats are by far weaker.

Where dog breeders go wrong... is that they focus on breeding fancy looking animals and forget the health of the animal. So, if you have an otherwise beautiful dog that has a weak rear end movement... and you breed it with its uncle who also has weak rear movement... then you double up on weak rear movement and create a problem for yourself! This happens when breeders refuse to be as harsh on their lines as they need to be.

For example, I bred Tibetan Spaniels. My lines were free of PRA, patella luxation, liver shunt and were over all healthy; having longer muzzles, smaller neater eyes and silkier coats. I was extremely harsh on what animals I used and if I felt I had an issue with one dog that needed breeding out I would outcross the animal to 'waterdown' the effects and try to eliminate the fault from my lines.
My lines were rather carefully and closely line bred and I was careful not to bring in the wrong kind of new blood that may introduce one of the heritable conditions my lines were currently free from. 

The same thing can happen when crossbreeding dogs. If you breed a boxer with a doberman with the theory the muzzles will be longer and therefor the animals will be healthier... then you have no understanding of the complexity of genetics. 
In its simplest reckoning... we could say that teeth size is just one thing passed from parents. Then teeth placement. Then nose size. Nose shape. Lip shape. Skull size. Skull shape. upper jaw length. Lower jaw length. See what I mean? Say the dog inherits the boxers teeth size, the dobermans teeth placement, the dobermans jaw width and the boxers skull width. :| Can you imagine the results? The dogs teeth would be crammed into its tiny narrow mouth, as boxers normally have a wide jaw to accommodate their large widely spaced teeth.
It is a common and fatal flaw of thinking... that thoughtless hybridization in a complex animal creates vigor.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 14, 2010)

Some excellant back to back posts.
Nice one Giggle .


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## wokka (Nov 14, 2010)

So giggle, Are you suggesting that a breeder is only responsible for heritable faults, and fpr faults caused by environment, such as incubation temperature they are not?


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

wokka said:


> So giggle, Are you suggesting that a breeder is only responsible for heritable faults, and fpr faults caused by environment, such as incubation temperature they are not?



Im not sure what you mean? Do you mean in the animal they sell... or in the animals down from their lines produced by another breeder?

To save time I will answer both xD

If they are selling an animal with a fault that was caused by environmental factors, the breeder would need to assess those faults. If the issue is impacting that animals quality of life then we are back to the ideas and ethics of culling and euthanasia again  Which I have stated my opinion on already.

If the injury does not impact the quality of life of the animal... or the quality of its progeny..._ They need to disclose that fault to the person purchasing that animal _and an agreement should be made as to the future of the animal. Im not very experienced with snakes, but lets say the animal had a heater burn prior to sale and was scarred, the breeder should disclose this to the purchaser. Such a thing may not affect the animals performance as a breeding animal, but it is ethical to disclose such information prior to an agreement of purchase. If the new owner then later down the track has issue with the fault, even though it was fully disclosed... then no, the breeder does not need to replace the animal. 

Alternatively...

If breeder 1 has sold on a healthy animal to breeder 2... and breeder 2 breeds the animal and then through a fault of keeping or incubating issues arise... then this is the responsibility of the person in charge of those animals care, i.e. breeder 2. Same thing for if that animal sold by breeder 1 to breeder 2 is injured while in the care of breeder 2. 
If the condition was pre-existing prior to sale however and was not disclosed by breeder 1... then it is breeder 1's responsibility  A refund or replacement should be offered. 

I guess it comes down to common sense and taking responsibility for your own actions


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Some excellant back to back posts.
> Nice one Giggle .


 
 thank you Roger


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## kupper (Nov 14, 2010)

i think this thread should be moved to the veterans section mods


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## kupper (Nov 14, 2010)

After having a lengthy discussion with a friend about this topic I have another interesting aspect that I will throw into the mix for you :

All our wildlife that we hold so dearly are at the end of the day protected fauna , a friend made the argument that we as keepers are not qualified to make a decision on what an animals quality of life is going to be 

Is a vet going to cull an animal that is deemed unsuitable by the breeder or keeper for non feeding , colour , physical deformities? 

I personally feel the same way as my first post


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## kbepythons (Nov 14, 2010)

Great thread. Very interesting replies. I know were i would rather bye my snakes. Of course would be off people i know cull the week and only keep the stuff that is 110%


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## kbepythons (Nov 14, 2010)

In my experience people save and save there hard earned cash for snakes. We often have people comming in and putting stuff on hold for a few weeks.Thats why i think they deserve the best qulity snakes posible. If that means culling the others than in my opinon thats what need to be done. at least you no your snake has the best start for a long and prosperous life.
would you buy a new couch with a rip in it or a t.v that only worked some times.


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## pythons73 (Nov 14, 2010)

In the wild only the strong survive,why should it be any different in captivity...(This applies to all animals).Considering every man and dog are breeding more so now then before..IMO any that have deformities etc should be culled,its not far for the animal in Q....Generally once hatchies are born you can usually tell if any have deformities straight away,or within weeks..As for fussy feeders,as i said previuosly..I had a chondro that was forced fed for 12months,it ate the first night with me,different enviroment might of made a difference,in this case it did.....How long is long enough to say its a fussy feeder,or just wont feed at all....


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## termin8or (Nov 14, 2010)

I have read this post in entirety in one sitting. My head hurts

Wow a lot to take in and some very interesting points of view.

Now I'll start by saying i have not bred any reptiles, but i do care about the quality of life that i provide for the animals i do own. I guess when i do start to breed i may be face with this concern and will make my choice on a case by case scenario. 
Which ever way i go i will be making sure that it is the most humane, not the easiest for me. I have chosen to bring a life into this world and i will do everything within my power to make sure it has a quality of life that i would myself want. This does not mean i'll make it a fluffy bed and play music to sooth it. We all have to be realistic.

Right from the start i thought that myself "Well in the wild the lame and weak either die or get eaten" and was happy to see that someone else had the same thought process.

I have bought "sick" (a 3 legged beardie plus others) animals from people in the hope of saving them. It was one of the most painful things to watch this animal grow a lot slower than the rest but it had one of the most interesting personalities. I had wished that i never had bought them but i also learned a lot about how to care for these animals

In the end everyone one has a different opinion about what is right and wrong. This is due to so many reasons: our religious beliefs, our morals, our parents, where we grew up and our life experiences all determine what is right or wrong for us. (its called the iceberg principal, we only see 10% of what makes up a person). We all have valid points in our own opinion and that's exactly what it is our opinion. 

I appreciate many people putting in their 2 cents worth as it brings up other issues that i may not have thought about, which will help me to decide for myself.

One final point: A single amateur built the arc, a team of experts built the Titanic and we all know how that ended up.


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

kupper said:


> After having a lengthy discussion with a friend about this topic I have another interesting aspect that I will throw into the mix for you :
> 
> All our wildlife that we hold so dearly are at the end of the day protected fauna , a friend made the argument that we as keepers are not qualified to make a decision on what an animals quality of life is going to be
> 
> ...



Well... you couldn't argue that a vet is qualified to assess an animals fitness to live, right? My vet agrees with me. My vet see's the results of animals that are given away to free homes as well. My vet isnt a reptile expert... but still... she is a very experienced and competent veterinarian.

Termin8tor... many would be surprised to know I also own a three legged beardie  Her existence in my life solidified my beliefs. Life is a struggle for her weekly. And now I have to decide whether to let go or not.

This is a heartbreak I would spare any future keepers. I didn't know what I was getting myself into once upon a time.


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## Colin (Nov 14, 2010)

keep on topic please.. to avoid me "post culling" 
thank you

_I have no problem culling "posts" with inherent disabilities  _


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## Wally (Nov 14, 2010)

I guess I'll state my position again post cull. 

I have no problem culling reptiles with inherent disabilities.


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## Kristy_07 (Nov 14, 2010)

Thanks, Colin. 

The question seems to have boiled down to what should be considered a weak enough trait to justify culling the individual animal? I suppose this would also depend on how big your collection is and how much time you have to spend on each animal. I think just about everyone has agreed that major deformities should be culled, but what about the animals in more of a grey area? 

If a hatchie needs to be force fed for 6mths but then feeds strongly and subsequently catches up in size, should it be bred from, or culled because of it's initial 6mths? 

Giggle, I hand feed my beardie every day, anyway... I'm sure I would do the same with a tripod, so there must be others that would do the same, and the loss of the 4th leg would make little difference to keeper or lizard? Also, losing a foot, tail, leg to another animal when young (which is common for overcrowded beardies) isn't at any genetic fault of the animal, so why, if they are otherwise healthy, and the special husbandry needs are taken care of (hand feeding etc.), couldn't they be used in a breeding project?


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## Colin (Nov 14, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> but what about the animals in more of a grey area?
> 
> If a hatchie needs to be force fed for 6mths but then feeds strongly and subsequently catches up in size, should it be bred from, or culled because of it's initial 6mths?


 
how long is a piece of string? theres no one answer to these issues and each animal has to be assessed on an individiual basis by each individual breeder.. some may have slightly different valid criteria than another. you cant say one's right and ones wrong.. 
in other words.. its a personal thing in my opinion and the responsibility of each person faced with these issues.


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## Wally (Nov 14, 2010)

Interesting Kristy and I agree with this grey area. I shall give an example.

One of my vitticeps offspring from last year seemed a little different right from the moment it hatched. From a clutch of 19 she was defiantly the smallest. Very early on I noticed that her breathing was very laboured. This has continued to this day. Nothing wrong with her appetite, is alert and interactive with me when hand feed and very inquisitive. Compared to a sibling that I also kept, she is tiny. She will be kept as a part of my collection and I will not euth her at this stage, but it's a good question. Where is the tipping point?


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## xxMelissaxx (Nov 14, 2010)

Wally76 said:


> Where is the tipping point?



That's totally dependent on the individual breeder, their beliefs and their circumstances.


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 14, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> That's totally dependent on the individual breeder, their beliefs and their circumstances.



And the species.


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## Wally (Nov 14, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> That's totally dependent on the individual breeder, their beliefs and their circumstances.



Yes, if circumstances were different the outcome for her would be different.


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Giggle, I hand feed my beardie every day, anyway... I'm sure I would do the same with a tripod, so there must be others that would do the same, and the loss of the 4th leg would make little difference to keeper or lizard? Also, losing a foot, tail, leg to another animal when young (which is common for overcrowded beardies) isn't at any genetic fault of the animal, so why, if they are otherwise healthy, and the special husbandry needs are taken care of (hand feeding etc.), couldn't they be used in a breeding project?



Interestingly... feeding isnt her problem... nor my concern with whether or not I take her to the vet for that final last step. 
She feeds well. She catches them well. She is interested in food, even when she isnt feeling well. 
Her stump, is a daily irritation to her. To keep her healthy, I bathe her regularly, which at times gives her relief. As she gets older, her breathing becomes more laboured. As a result, she spends most of her day lazing around, at best. I know she is unhappy. I used to have her on my lap a lot of the time, this perked her up alot. Why, I guess body warmth. She refuses to bask. But recently I have had to take a job and I can no longer bathe her up to three times a week and every single day when she is ill. I can not watch her all day long to make sure she is getting up to bask and eat. Passing her off onto someone else would be unethical. Now I have a very tough choice to make.


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## xxMelissaxx (Nov 14, 2010)

steve1 said:


> And the species.


 
How so?


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## cement (Nov 14, 2010)

I too have a beardy that is the proud owner of three feet and half a tail. Due to being slow as a hatchy and feasted on by its siblings. He does well, is 4 yrs old eats like a champion, and is a superb bright orange in the sun (almost fluoro).
All he needed was a chance to get a feed away from the crowded situation he was born into. It was a gift because the owner didn't think it would survive and it was missing limbs.I am glad he wasn't culled off, he is great.


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## cement (Nov 14, 2010)

But I have had hatchlings that i have spent a lot of money on at the vet, and time administering to them only to have them die anyway. So it would have been the best thing for them.


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 14, 2010)

xxMelissaxx said:


> How so?



Humans generally place less significance on certain animals. The larger softer more intelligent the animal the more likely it is to play on ones conscience. I personally could put down a small Egernia species more easily than a Python.


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## Colin (Nov 14, 2010)

giggle said:


> Interestingly... feeding isnt her problem... nor my concern with whether or not I take her to the vet for that final last step.
> She feeds well. She catches them well. She is interested in food, even when she isnt feeling well.
> Her stump, is a daily irritation to her. To keep her healthy, I bathe her regularly, which at times gives her relief. As she gets older, her breathing becomes more laboured. As a result, she spends most of her day lazing around, at best. I know she is unhappy. I used to have her on my lap a lot of the time, this perked her up alot. Why, I guess body warmth. She refuses to bask. But recently I have had to take a job and I can no longer bathe her up to three times a week and every single day when she is ill. I can not watch her all day long to make sure she is getting up to bask and eat. Passing her off onto someone else would be unethical. Now I have a very tough choice to make.



as I said before these issues are a personal thing in my opinion and the responsibility of each person faced with them.. I guess its a decision where you feel her quality of life has deteriated to a point where she's suffering. 

Its the same choices people with dogs, cats and other pets face when an animal gets sick or very old and is suffering.. when these times are reached it can be cruel and morally unethical to let them continue to suffer and the best thing to humanely euthanise them for the sake of the animal.


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## xxMelissaxx (Nov 14, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Humans generally place less significance on certain animals. The larger softer more intelligent the animal the more likely it is to play on ones conscience. I personally could put down a small Egernia species more easily than a Python.


 
Agreed. Thanks for elaborating.


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

cement said:


> I too have a beardy that is the proud owner of three feet and half a tail. Due to being slow as a hatchy and feasted on by its siblings. He does well, is 4 yrs old eats like a champion, and is a superb bright orange in the sun (almost fluoro).
> All he needed was a chance to get a feed away from the crowded situation he was born into. It was a gift because the owner didn't think it would survive and it was missing limbs.I am glad he wasn't culled off, he is great.


 
He is gorgeous  But my girl is missing her front leg. She has an awkward gait. I had had a lot of problems with substrate for her. 

Your boy is lucky to have a back foot missing  My girl has just under her elbow missing. She is a fighter, I do have to say she is and has always been my favourite.


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## Australis (Nov 14, 2010)

Jaxrtfm said:


> .....[9]Native animals and birds should be maintained safely in their natural environment and should be free from hunting, trapping and captivity...



RSPCA doesn't even want you (us) to keep Native animals in the first place. Thats the most telling part of the charter.


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

Colin said:


> as I said before these issues are a personal thing in my opinion and the responsibility of each person faced with them.. I guess its a decision where you feel her quality of life has deteriated to a point where she's suffering.
> 
> Its the same choices people with dogs, cats and other pets face when an animal gets sick or very old and is suffering.. when these times are reached it can be cruel and morally unethical to let them continue to suffer and the best thing to humanely euthanise them for the sake of the animal.



Its hard to do though... and I feel a bit of guilt that I persisted for as long as I did. Selfishness. I considered maybe if I just got her well enough to travel I could pay to have her sent to someone else. lol 

Kick me if I haven't gone ahead by the end of the week.


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## giggle (Nov 14, 2010)

Australis said:


> RSPCA doesn't even want you (us) to keep Native animals in the first place. Thats the most telling part of the charter.



Most 'animal rights' groups would have us release all our captive animals... dogs, cats, birds, reptiles... so they can live natural lives! *sigh*

There have been many cases of animals becoming extinct in the wild and only kept alive by being kept as captives.


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## Australis (Nov 14, 2010)

giggle said:


> There have been many cases of animals becoming extinct in the wild and only kept alive by being kept as captives.


 
Well on ex-situ conservation (or not for conservation), high fecundity species like Carpet pythons would (likely) benefit from culling in captivity.


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## termin8or (Nov 14, 2010)

Just for a bit of clarification

My 3 legged beardie was born with only 3 legs as the owner had bred an eastern an central beardie (at the time i didn't know that). You could see the tiny little "pimple" that was supposed to be the arm. It was also the front leg, which made it hard for it to move around. At the time the owner said do you want to buy it or i'll end up feeding to my other beardie. I didn't want that to happen, so i bought it. I spent more hours on that one beardie than i did the rest of my collection. In Hind sight i should have not bought the beardie and then let the irresponsible breeder make the choice of whether or not to let it live or die.

Like i said for me its a case by case situation, plus i don't like animal cruelty.


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## wokka (Nov 15, 2010)

From the discussion to date alot of decisions are based upon the value of the animal.
The opening post implies its ok to give "faulty" animals away but not to sell them.
If it is a welfare based decision price shouldn't matter...........or should it?


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## pythons73 (Nov 15, 2010)

wokka said:


> From the discussion to date alot of decisions are based upon the value of the animal.
> The opening post implies its ok to give "faulty" animals away but not to sell them.
> If it is a welfare based decision price shouldn't matter...........or should it?



It shouldnt matter at all Wokka,doesnt matter if its a coastal or albino carpet...If its the welfare of the animal the value of the reptile shouldnt even play a part of the decision...


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## giggle (Nov 15, 2010)

hey termin8tor  I was given mine as a second thought, for free, by the breeder. A freebie. I guess like a lot in this thread, the breeder thought they were doing the right thing or couldnt bare the responsibility of doing the right thing.
I thought I would be doing a good thing by taking her on. At one stage I had to sell up some of my beardies and I had to move a quality animal on in her place because she wouldn't be able to find a home with a missing leg and as she aged her care was becoming more intensive. As a young beardie missing a front leg they seem kind of ok, they can move reasonably well. As they get bigger and heavier, it becomes a problem.

I shouldn't have taken her. But the partner I was with at the time fell in love with her and wouldn't let me do otherwise. Common sense was telling me no. But she was awfully cute. 

Her case is one of those things, where the line should have been drawn. I would love to know if anyone has had a beardie missing a front leg that wasn't labour intensive?

If I were to breed beardies (and I wont because this has definitely put me off) any babies without front legs would be culled. Back legs are perhaps a different story.

Wokka... I don't believe in giving away faulty animals at all. 

1. adopters don't always understand the gravity of what they are getting themselves into.
2. people who don't pay for their animal, often do not value their life.
3. some people see it as a chance to get rich quick, acquiring free animals to breed and make money off the offspring.
4. a breeder is passing off the responsibility of that animals life and possible pain and maintenance to someone else, this in my opinion is unethical.

Even if I had a $7000 animal that needed euthanising... I would have it euthanised.


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## vitticep (Nov 15, 2010)

For those that say killing off a fussy feeder is ok.

As stated the majority of fussy feeders feed extremely well once they work it.
Their diet has a lot of variety they dont get offered in captivity, 
To say in the wild they would be fussy and die anyway is incorrect.
A bold feeder may die just as easily, kookaburras aren't selective,
If you had a unique morph hatch and was a slow feeder, and you had a standard carpet that was a slow feeder, which would you euthanize first? OR would you put the work and effort in to get the morph feeding???
Yes, you know the answer, which negates your arguement.
True, one or two hatchlings per season might be a huge hassle, but it is the mark of a good breeder to get his snakes feeding, If you have inadequacies in this department, maybe you should breed less or reconsider your feeding techniques.
Culling hatchlings because they dont smash the food the first 3 times is a sad state of the hobby.
Also highlights how the 'big breeders' see the 'future'.
Anything that is deformed should be euthanized immediately, Ive never understood the 'freak show' collectors that want 2 headed animals or 1 eyed animals etc.


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 15, 2010)

Good points I can't see many people not putting effort into very high value animals


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## Troy K. (Nov 15, 2010)

steve1 said:


> Good points I can't see many people not putting effort into very high value animals




Problem or deformed, no matter what the animal is worth gets culled my way. Exception being if it is a new or rare morph, like an Albino GTP or a Piebald Woma. These animals would be kept and worked on even if they had problems until the first F1 back crosses or het to het matings from the first lot of offspring were done and then the founder animals wouldn't be used again while we tried to strengthen the line. Unless the animal was in pain of course, then it would be culled. Hope this makes sense.


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 15, 2010)

It makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure many would live by the same ethics if they thought they could be depriving their back pocket


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## Den from Den Pythons (Nov 15, 2010)

I've culled a limited number of designer animals that were not up to scratch physically. If these animals were seen in the flesh prior to being euthanised most designer BHP fans would cry at seeing them go, but selective breeing isn't just about keeping the best of the best. I could have sold them for a discount, or even near top dollar given their appearance and the genetics held but all I would be doing is risking the 'injection' of weaker blood into the 'line' or future generations. Exceptions are only made with something truly unique, exceptional or new. And as Troy said, in these cases the animal in question would be kept back and outcrossed.

Obviously some people shudder at the thought of euthanising an animal, or seeing something be euthanised that may "pull through with attention and time". I respect their views. But myself, and certain other breeders, are breeding to ensure future generations are as strong as they can be in all aspects of feeding, health and finally appearance. Ensuring all animals that are produced and passed on are as good as I would expect or would want to own myself.


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## kupper (Nov 15, 2010)

Troy K. said:


> Problem or deformed, no matter what the animal is worth gets culled my way. Exception being if it is a new or rare morph, like an Albino GTP or a Piebald Woma. These animals would be kept and worked on even if they had problems until the first F1 back crosses or het to het matings from the first lot of offspring were done and then the founder animals wouldn't be used again while we tried to strengthen the line. Unless the animal was in pain of course, then it would be culled. Hope this makes sense.


 

Troy are you saying you have a piebald woma :lol:


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## No-two (Nov 15, 2010)

If you breed reptiles consistantly you can get a feel of hatchies that just aren't upto it pretty early on. I've culled in the past and will do in the future.

When it comes to things like tail kinks thoguh, what happens with animals that get them later on. I had a perfect WB stimmie, I noticed had a kinked tail after this breeding season, I assume it was the males fault as she didn't have it prior to introductions. Its not the same as having them hatch with it.


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## Sock Puppet (Nov 15, 2010)

No-two said:


> When it comes to things like tail kinks thoguh, what happens with animals that get them later on. I had a perfect WB stimmie, I noticed had a kinked tail after this breeding season, I assume it was the males fault as she didn't have it prior to introductions. Its not the same as having them hatch with it.


But where does one draw the line. From memory, & please correct me if I'm wrong, the Snake Ranch albino mac ("Ribald Rodney") was born with a kink but has since straigtened & now there are descendants on the market. They wouldn't be available if that original animal had been knocked on the head early on because of the kink. I guess this is the sort of scenario that Den mentioned that it'd have to be something special for him to persist with an animal like that.


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## No-two (Nov 15, 2010)

Sock Puppet said:


> But where does one draw the line. From memory, & please correct me if I'm wrong, the Snake Ranch albino mac ("Ribald Rodney") was born with a kink but has since straigtened & now there are descendants on the market. They wouldn't be available if that original animal had been knocked on the head early on because of the kink. I guess this is the sort of scenario that Den mentioned that it'd have to be something special for him to persist with an animal like that.



Something like that is always going to be kept and outcrosed to reduce the problem.


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## Troy K. (Nov 15, 2010)

kupper said:


> Troy are you saying you have a piebald woma :lol:



Did have a piedball but the thing wouldn't eat for me and well, you know the rest 

Jokes people. I don't have one.


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## beatlloydy (Nov 15, 2010)

vitticep said:


> For those that say killing off a fussy feeder is ok.
> 
> 
> Anything that is deformed should be euthanized immediately, Ive never understood the 'freak show' collectors that want 2 headed animals or 1 eyed animals etc.


 
I agree with 99% of what you are saying except the above quote....when I purchased a pair of womas from a reputable breeding institution I was also offered a female woma with only 1 eye. She is 100% normal apart from this...I dont think it is a genetic trait (but have no proof). She is the most voracious of the 3 in the eating dept, yet also the calmest of the 3.

I dont regret getting her. She is leading a good life and didnt deserve to be put down due to something that is not 100% amongst breeders. Two headed snakes may be a different matter.

This debate is one I read with interest...from it we can see numerous points of view. However, we all possess slightly different moral compasses. That is what makes us human...I am not saying my point of view is the correct one...merely my own.


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## mrs_davo (Nov 15, 2010)

This thread started as a reasonable discussion & has turned into a well fueled DEBATE.
If you are a serious breeder you will do what you want with your reptiles, & if not you will look after your little babies forever untill they pass not giving even a glimce at the time that you could have spent doing something worthwhile.
there is obviously people on both sides & niether will win the debate.


Troy K. said:


> I see that there is a thread going on at the moment saying that there aren’t enough decent reptile discussions happening on this forum at the moment so I thought that I’ll put one up that I find interesting and would be interested in other peoples thoughts on the matter.
> 
> I breed a few snakes every year and the hatchlings that I find aren’t up starch, either with kinks, problem feeders, or deformed in any way get culled off. I used to give these snakes away as pets with strict instructions that the snakes I give away are never to be bred or sold, as I believe that breeding weak snakes just creates more weak snakes, but after a few years I found that some of the snakes I’d given away had either been given away again or sold or even worse, been bred.
> 
> What I’m wanting to know is how many other reptile breeders cull off their weak or deformed hatchling and if you don’t cull them off what do you do with them?


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## giggle (Nov 15, 2010)

Den from Den Pythons said:


> I've culled a limited number of designer animals that were not up to scratch physically. If these animals were seen in the flesh prior to being euthanised most designer BHP fans would cry at seeing them go, but selective breeing isn't just about keeping the best of the best. I could have sold them for a discount, or even near top dollar given their appearance and the genetics held but all I would be doing is risking the 'injection' of weaker blood into the 'line' or future generations. Exceptions are only made with something truly unique, exceptional or new. And as Troy said, in these cases the animal in question would be kept back and outcrossed.
> 
> Obviously some people shudder at the thought of euthanising an animal, or seeing something be euthanised that may "pull through with attention and time". I respect their views. But myself, and certain other breeders, are breeding to ensure future generations are as strong as they can be in all aspects of feeding, health and finally appearance. Ensuring all animals that are produced and passed on are as good as I would expect or would want to own myself.



Very good post  I agree. From my standpoint, nothing is worth passing the buck on, if it means my actions may cause either weakness in the lines or the future suffering of an animal. And I have learnt over many years, that the only person you can trust with the future of your lines, is yourself. Therefor, if you dare to entrust someone with your lines, you better make sure the specimens you provide them with are foolproof


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## Glimmerman (Nov 23, 2010)

I have culled or feed off the weak hatchies many at time. I personally believe that if it is an animal that has taken 4 months to feed and after that you force feed it for a few more months - it is not worth the risk to continue this until it decides it wishes to feed. If this is a genetic characteristic, I do not wish that trait to be bred - therefore to snake heaven it goes. Same goes for kink back etc.

I can confidently say however, I have never had to kill an animal due to not be able to sell it. Adult snakes that have had to be euthanased have been to a vet for diagnosis prior to making the discussion to do so.


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## Gusbus (Nov 24, 2010)

Glimmerman said:


> I have culled or feed off the weak hatchies many at time. I personally believe that if it is an animal that has taken 4 months to feed and after that you force feed it for a few more months - it is not worth the risk to continue this until it decides it wishes to feed. If this is a genetic characteristic, I do not wish that trait to be bred - therefore to snake heaven it goes. Same goes for kink back etc.
> 
> I can confidently say however, I have never had to kill an animal due to not be able to sell it. Adult snakes that have had to be euthanased have been to a vet for diagnosis prior to making the discussion to do so.



agree with u there bud


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## Defective (Nov 26, 2010)

personally i don't like the word culling as it's a harsh word and should only be used for pests like feral rabbits, foxes, pigeons and when the need arises on KI koalas and kangaroos. maybe the term 'put to sleep' IMHO

I personally would not put any animal to sleep if i had a firm belief it had a chance. i would pay the mega bills for meds or surgery because i think every animal deserves to live. No, i wouldn't breed a snake with deformities just like i've chosen not to have children because i don't want to risk them becoming epieptics due to a gene mutation like i have or any birth deformities due to my meds (plus i don't want to die because i came off my meds)

i guess with some TLC and a special needs enclosure the snake can live normal lives. dunno much but i have had to lizard-sit a beardie with only 3 legs and he was also the runt so yeah.


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## Echiopsis (Nov 26, 2010)

> personally i don't like the word culling as it's a harsh word and should only be used for pests like feral rabbits, foxes, pigeons and when the need arises on KI koalas and kangaroos. maybe the term 'put to sleep' IMHO


 
Are you serious? Its a word to describe the process, harden up :lol: Kill, destroy, cull, 'put to sleep....it all results in....death.

You need to think about the well being of the animal not about your human needs, surviving isnt the same as thriving.


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## Defective (Nov 26, 2010)

i said *personally*i hate the word cull!...i mean these are our pets are you going to cull a litter of puppies or kittens because a couple have deformities? if that were the case then i would be inundated with them because i would take them in

the only animal i'm currently interested in having put down right now (since it's illegal for me to kill it) is a british short hair that is teasing my cat and and causing cat fights (my cat is purely indoors) she has already had a concussion and hurt her back leg from jumping at the glass then landing wrong. i can't find the owners of it so if i get cat traps off to the pound it goes and hopefully it goes to hell!


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## FusionMorelia (Nov 26, 2010)

Lambert said:


> i said *personally*i hate the word cull!...i mean these are our pets are you going to cull a litter of puppies or kittens because a couple have deformities? if that were the case then i would be inundated with them because i would take them in



i take it you haven't seen what they do to animals that are not cute enough for those chain pet stores?


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## Defective (Nov 27, 2010)

well, i'm just guessing here but kittens are *gulps* are probably fed to 'healthy' snakes, puppies that are the runts and not doing well or are deformed are more than likely drowned by the breeder (even though thats illegal)


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## cheddah (Nov 27, 2010)

Lambert said:


> i said *personally*i hate the word cull!...i mean these are our pets are you going to cull a litter of puppies or kittens because a couple have deformities? if that were the case then i would be inundated with them because i would take them in
> 
> the only animal i'm currently interested in having put down right now (since it's illegal for me to kill it) is a british short hair that is teasing my cat and and causing cat fights (my cat is purely indoors) she has already had a concussion and hurt her back leg from jumping at the glass then landing wrong. i can't find the owners of it so if i get cat traps off to the pound it goes and hopefully it goes to hell!



why would you want to be inundated with animals that may suffer? respect says put to sleep and or respect others choice to do so. 
then you want an animal put down for teasing/fighting with your cat???? 
isnt that what cats do, scrap, kill, CULL, destroy anything they can, or just catch it, chuck it up in the air then leave it half dead. 
so your happy to kill that cat for well being a cat, but not an animal with defect that may cause it to suffer throughout its entire life, possibly breed and cause trouble to an entire species....come on mate, less emotions more common sense.


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## Defective (Nov 27, 2010)

Ok, if you read the post properly you would have read that my cat is purely an indoors cat meaning she never goes outside!!! this british short hair comes around our place at 5am for the past 6 months teasing the bejezzus out of her and my cat has sustained injuries that have required her to stay at the vets and cost over $200!!

I did the right thing by going and looking, door knocking all day for the owner but couldn't find them so i have every right to trap the cat and hope it is put down. my cat has never had any other issues with any other cat but this one!

I respect others choice to do so but if i can see that an animal has a chance i will give it a chance. I get the fact that breeding snakes that have deformities can be harmful i'm not stupid (not saying anyone has said i am) but i have been given an opportunity to nurse a kitten on the brink of death and missing half its tail and a back leg because of a dog, and it survived and now is with a loving family. so to me, anything is possible. i could have got it put down but the vet i saw had the same compassion i did and gave it a chance.

when common sense is needed i'll use it but sometimes emotion is just that more powerful and instictive.

if a snake was missing half its tail, and had a kink, i'd take it and give it the best life i knew how! i wouldn't breed it i wouldn't risk it. i guess it just stems from the fact that i myself have quite a few disabilities and other than family no one has given me a chance so i find solace in animals healthy or disabled!


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## cheddah (Nov 27, 2010)

I did see you mentioned your cat is indoors. Surely you can control it, stop it from nutting out? anyway going off topic.. 

I just found it interesting the word cull seemed to strike a nerve with you, but you seemed happy to kill that cat for esentially just doing what they do. Then on the other hand you keep alive a cat on the brink of death after a dog attack. Id put that to sleep on first sight but thats just me. 

Some people are against certain live foods being used. IMO if its captive bred what ever it is we should respect that breeders have the full right to cull feed do what they want, as long as its done for what they beleave to be for the greater good.


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## Defective (Nov 27, 2010)

cheddah said:


> I did see you mentioned your cat is indoors. Surely you can control it, stop it from nutting out? anyway going off topic..
> 
> I just found it interesting the word cull seemed to strike a nerve with you, but you seemed happy to kill that cat for esentially just doing what they do. Then on the other hand you keep alive a cat on the brink of death after a dog attack. Id put that to sleep on first sight but thats just me.
> 
> Some people are against certain live foods being used. IMO if its captive bred what ever it is we should respect that breeders have the full right to cull feed do what they want, as long as its done for what they beleave to be for the greater good.


 
unfortunately no we can't control our cat from spazzing coz it's 4.30-5am when it happens. but i do try.

back on topic: i just find the word creepy and try to avoid using it is all. for certain animals that are a pest or are over populating an area like KI the context in which it's used is ok and i don't mind but i guess it must have also been the day i was having and how i reacted...wasn't a very good day at all. 

i can see how a breeder would want only their best to mate and produce and why its so risky for a deformed snake to breed and i'll always respect that just like you would put the kitten down at first sight whereas i gave it a chance... differing of opinions. but that's human nature and my opinion doesn't really count for a whole lot, i was really just voicing how i felt on the topic.


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## cheddah (Nov 27, 2010)

your opinion matters alot, this place is good for voicing our opinions


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## remington (Nov 27, 2010)

First few pages where good now its gone to crap


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## cheddah (Nov 27, 2010)

just delete my imput, my bad. woops but seriously a few on here are sooooo senisitive. discussion is about just that discussion, not talking about the discussion and your opinion on it turning to crap (which comes up every other day from a select few). best to take things on the positive and she be right. hey we may all learn something.


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## Defective (Nov 28, 2010)

cheddah said:


> seriously a few on here are sooooo senisitive.


Well i'm sooooooooooooo sorry for having emotion and compassion! 



cheddah said:


> discussion is about just that discussion, not talking about the discussion and your opinion on it turning to crap
> *Opinion:*A thought that a person has formed about a topic or issue; To have or express as an opinion
> 
> *Discussion*: A conversation is communication between multiple people. It is a social skill that is not difficult for most individuals. Conversations are the ideal form of communication in some respects, since they allow people with different views on a topic to learn from each other.


an opinion comes into play during a discussion. it gives each person an opportunity to express their thoughts. that is what makes a good discussion, not just views.


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## Channaz (Mar 11, 2012)

I have no problem with culling animals that have deformities. However, the idea of culling a healthy snake because it doesn't fit a plan for a future morph... yes, that is the type of thing that will put me off breeding snakes. Incidentally, I have no idea if this is the norm or otherwise.


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## Lucas89 (Mar 11, 2012)

Natures natural selection is survival of the fittest. I think it has become pretty obvious that some people will always feel the need to look after the "runt" but that's not the topic. Deformed, disabled, genetic disorders. Must be eliminated to ensure survival. Cats do it of there own accord (only time I have personally witnessed it). And without culling you end up with polluted gene pools. That leads to the end of a species. The Mule is a great example of that. I whole heartily believe in culling, when desexing ( depending on severity of deformity ) is not viable. I even think we as humans should give it a little more thought.
( just to be clear, would never kill an already living human) 

Thank you op for a great thread, and every one for there input. Was great to see the diversity of opinions that make us different people. Made for a great read! 

Lucas


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## Frozenmouse (Mar 11, 2012)

Big monitors make a great garbage disposal unit. 
As we venture more towards Jags, albinos ect our gene pools will become tighter and tighter and more deformities will pop up it is your obligation as a breeder to cull your defects and stop bad genes from being passed on.


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## Kitah (Mar 11, 2012)

This is an opinions/views thread so I'll just post mine though I know many may disagree with it  I'm not a breeder but my opinions are based on my veterinary background. 

Natural selection just about doesn't exist when humans are involved, for example in breeding captive snakes. people can line breed, cross breed etc to produce animals that would never naturally survive, or poor feeders for example- yet with human assistance these can survive, grow and reproduce themselves, which can produce more problematic young. So with poor 'technique' and lack of attention so many problems can arise as a result. Look at domestic dog breeds for example- there are SO many problems in so many different breeds, some which are really quite severe and life threatening. And dog breeding for example continues to 'better the breeds' yet the animals are actually going downhill, and many of which I believe have now become a welfare issue. 

So, how do you keep strong animals? This is where I think I may go against many people- don't breed animals unlikely to survive in the wild, those with hereditary conditions or those that are KNOWN to produce 'defective' offspring- whether they have in the past or they come from a line known to produce problematic animals. As an EXAMPLE Jag carpets- not all have neuro issues, and the severity varies. Personally I do not think animals with known problems, or those known to produce animals with defects such as the neuro signs in jags should be bred. Don't get me wrong I absolutely adore the look of jags but do not agree with the principle to produce them. Having to cull animals should be avoided at all costs, and the best way to avoid it is to avoid breeding known, problematic animals. Ethically I think its wrong to breed animals to get a select few 'ideal' ones with a good appearance yet have a known defect, just because they look nice. I think the same of any other species, whether it has fur, scales or feathers. 

As to culling vs. persisting with deformed or very poor doer's- provided it is done _humanely_ and for the right reasons (i.e. not just because it doesn't look how the breeder wants it to), fine. However, the ideal option if it is a line bred animal and multiple problematic animals are cropping up, is to not breed these animals, as I stated above. Culling should not be used as a 'solution' for the problematic animals. If it is an animal with a defect likely to have been caused due to a problem with the incubation, and it will not be passed to offspring, I don't see an issue with them being sold as pets. Really- what is the lesser of two evils? Culling the _occasional_ sporadic deformed animal or producing weaker animals in the future? 

Anyway, hope this made sense. 3am and a bit tired


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## ericrs (Mar 11, 2012)

will be culling of and deformed/weak pythons i breed before anyone gets a chance to know they existed. it has been happening naturally for thousands of years and that is why we have such strong beautiful animals to work with now. i do not believe that keeping them alive is the right thing to do in any way shape or form. if we want to have good quality reptiles for future generations it is our obligation. this does not mean i will kill animals that are a bit hard to get going. don't get me wrong if the deformity is not hereditary and wont be passed down to the next generation then i cant see why it is a problem. i will do my best to find it a good home. but an animal that is known to have serious "issues" i cannot trust anyone to not breed that animal in the future and ruin our valuable gene pool.


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## JAS101 (Mar 11, 2012)

Frozenmouse said:


> Big monitors make a great garbage disposal unit.
> .


 yup that and/or a croc lol .


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## KaotikJezta (Mar 11, 2012)

Throwing a spanner in the works here. If breeders only cull/kill the weak/deformed animals, why do I rarely if ever see Jag siblings advertised for sale.


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## sarah1234 (Mar 11, 2012)

I've been into fishkeeping most of my life. Breeding certain colour strains that lead to deformities associated with that colour. When breeding, to produce the best, I would cull up to 60% of my spawns. This lead to only the strongest, biggest and healthiest animals going into the market. Personally if I was breeding on a large scale particularly with weak straind animals I would not be opposed to culling (humanely) the weaker animals. I often fed my culls to other animals, at least then it is not a waste.


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## Bandit05 (Mar 11, 2012)

The subject of culling weak/deformed animals of any kind will always be a touchy subject . I have never bred snakes and doubt I ever will but have bred other animals and I am totally against breeding weak animals . I have only culled animals that are in pain and have no possible chance of a pain free life . I give any animal a chance at life no matter what but this is a personal choice and I can understand others not having a choice but to cull. I understand some see it as breeders only caring about lining their pockets and not the welfare of what they breed but until snakes can be steralized nothing can stop a person who is given a snake with some form of weakness from trying to breed from it . A responsible breeder will strive to improve and strengthen their breeding stock and culling is an important part of this , selecting the best of what you have bred and selling the rest is also a part of the culling process. I never gave away any weaklings but kept them until they died , thankfully through breeding with strong stock this was only encountered rarely . I currently have a snake that is a poor feeder , two birds that cant fly and a duck with a dud eye , I didnt breed these but Im a softy and cant help myself , I actually bought the snake and duck . For those against culling / killing just give a thought to how you would feel if you paid for an animal you thought was in good health only to find later that it had health issues that resulted in you paying out hundreds of dollars in vet bills trying to save its life because someone had chosen to breed from weak stock .


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## Colin (Mar 12, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> Throwing a spanner in the works here. If breeders only cull/kill the weak/deformed animals, why do I rarely if ever see Jag siblings advertised for sale.



I bred some jags last season and kept all the siblings. the siblings look pretty good. theres variance with them between clutches as far as colours and patterns go.

personally I think the siblings are a good choice for people to use in their jag projects as it gives them a purpose and Im not happy with the idea of culling them. so rather than keep continually out crossing with pure animals (which your never going to get 100% anyway so all the percentages 50% 75% or whatever are moot) using the siblings is another option. 

now to answer your question why dont you see jag siblings advertised? personally Ive been selling my rpm-jags without any problem so havent really advertised them on the forum. and Im giving a free sibling with every jag sold (while stock lasts) and have given a few away free to friends so Im not advertising siblings "for sale" 

just because you may not see adverts for them doesn't necessarily mean people have culled them.


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## KaotikJezta (Mar 12, 2012)

Colin said:


> I bred some jags last season and kept all the siblings. the siblings look pretty good. theres variance with them between clutches as far as colours and patterns go.
> 
> personally I think the siblings are a good choice for people to use in their jag projects as it gives them a purpose and Im not happy with the idea of culling them. so rather than keep continually out crossing with pure animals (which your never going to get 100% anyway so all the percentages 50% 75% or whatever are moot) using the siblings is another option.
> 
> ...



I realise not everyone culls them or needs/wants to advertise, it was more a question than an accusation. Just wanting to know really as I have only ever seen a couple advertised and yes they are nice looking.


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## Colin (Mar 12, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> I realise not everyone culls them or needs/wants to advertise, it was more a question than an accusation. Just wanting to know really as I have only ever seen a couple advertised and yes they are nice looking.



no probs.. I really didnt see your post as an accusation though.. and was just trying to give my personal explanation to your question. cheers


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## Snake-Supplies (Mar 15, 2012)

Why should there be a need to cull weak animals?

One question raised would be WHY are they the way they are?

If you are getting animals that are sick or weak, there is obviously a problem somewhere with either the breeder, or the parents of the snakes anyway, yet you still bread them...
Isn't that just a little hypocritical?
Yeah, accidents happen, but if you a repeat offender of these animals that are not "up to scratch" then I'd be looking a little deeper into why.

Forgive me if I am wrong, I don't breed but that's just somthing I was wondering.


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## citrus (Mar 15, 2012)

Can anyone actually comfirm that sibs are being killed? I see alot of people saying the breeders are but speak to the breeders no one has....


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## Snake-Supplies (Mar 15, 2012)

citrus said:


> Can anyone actually comfirm that sibs are being killed? I see alot of people saying the breeders are but speak to the breeders no one has....



??


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## Scleropages (Mar 15, 2012)

I dream of the day I hatch a two headed snake or a 5 legged lizard/ cyclops.... I will be keeping the little bugger's forever , haha
I have time to baby what I hatch if they arnt 100% so I will baby them.
Love deformed reptiles , and it's fun to name them after people you know


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## tinka1326 (Mar 15, 2012)

i am new to reptiles and will never breed, but as a buyer i hope my breeder i bought from does cull as it would mean im less likely to have issues with my beautiful new baby


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## richardsc (Apr 30, 2012)

sounds like hitler all over again,cull all the fugly ones to create a master race,lol


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## PythonLegs (Apr 30, 2012)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> Why should there be a need to cull weak animals?
> 
> One question raised would be WHY are they the way they are?
> 
> ...



Some just don't develop properly- in colubrids there's often one or two in a clutch that just obviously weren't 'meant' to make it- they just lack energy, may not eat, may have depth percepion problems, etc etc etc..I have no idea how often this happens in 'wild' populations, but safe to say they don't make it to the gene pool..only the strong survive long enough to breed. I think it's part of your responsibility as a breeder to make sure the same happens with domestic populations as well. 

Rather than just selling at half price as 'non feeders'..Ugh.


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## dragonlover1 (Apr 30, 2012)

JAS101 said:


> I am by no means a experenced breeder but if i was to breed any reptiles that have a deformaty or is weak ,and iam not going to keep it for its whole life then yes i would consider culling it/them off .



we had a clutch of blueys a few years ago,1 was "lucky'' to survive through intervention and lived happily for several years another 1 was born deformed but "twistie" also lived well for many years


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## Shaggz (May 1, 2012)

I have just read this from start to finish, found it to be probably one of the best quality threads I have found since I have been on this site with minimal personal attacks on a very serious topic. I realise it was started 2 years ago but it is definately an important topic and newbies like me should definately consider the responsibilities we are in for if we consider breeding in the future.

I am definately pro culling when it comes to quality of life and genetic deformities.


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## turtle (May 1, 2012)

Besides deformaties, poor feeders, neuro issues ect, how many people out there just cull offspring for their poor pattern. 
I think people will be quite surprised!

Dan


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## Kam333 (May 1, 2012)

turtle said:


> Besides deformaties, poor feeders, neuro issues ect, how many people out there just cull offspring for their poor pattern.
> I think people will be quite surprised!
> 
> Dan



Hmmmm, How many purist line breeders, actually how man time have I read some "master race" minion say "it would look good in my freezer" or "you should hit it on the head with a hammer" in regards to a perfectly healthy hybrid or morph. All I'm going to say is. . . these are little lives that we are responsible for not star wars collectables. If you breed it and can be given a decent life then it is your responsibility to make sure it is looked after. (just like babies) I have a lot of mouths to feed and it gets a bit expensive but. . my responsibility.


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## Snowman (May 1, 2012)

What are the legalities of culling a licensed animal?


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## PythonLegs (May 1, 2012)

turtle said:


> Besides deformaties, poor feeders, neuro issues ect, how many people out there just cull offspring for their poor pattern.
> I think people will be quite surprised!
> 
> Dan



As the hobby has exploded in recent years we'll see this more and more. Just have a look at how many 'newbs' are breeding coastals,beardies, blue tongues, antaresia, etc, and they can barely give them away. You can only feed and house huge numbers of snakes if you're selling enough to support them, and I can't imagine the new crop of backyard breeders are doing that. 
Which again is a reason the domestic blood lines need to be kept strong because, like it or not, the majority of these unsellables will end up being released into backyards.


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## Hoyle00cdn (May 1, 2012)

If you're going to cull an animal, make sure you look it in the eye before you swing the hammer.

The animal deserves the dignity.


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## ForgottenXo (May 1, 2012)

On the subject of culling non-feeders, sometimes they just need that little extra push to get the feeding response going. Having it not kick in straight away, imo, is perfectly normal and would have to be one of the main factors regarding survival rates in the wild.

If the animal has a defect that will see it not have quality of life or live without pain then i believe it should be culled. If there is, however, an opportunity for that animal to live normally, then as keepers we have a duty of care to ensure that happens...

Survival of the fittest shouldnt exist in Captive Breeding...Everything should be given chance at life 

Kayte Xo


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## PythonLegs (May 1, 2012)

And..sometimes they don't feed at all, and die a slow painful death. Occaisionally after they've been sold as 'fussy'.


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## richardsc (May 1, 2012)

earlier it was mentioned that litters with deformed babies should be culled instead of used for breeding,does that go for the adult pr that produced the deformed ones to begin with?i bet not

also funny is if an oddity is produced,someone mentioned earlier a luecistic that had issues was kept for future breeding,why does that specimen deserve to live over a supposed fugly one that may just have a kink but otherwise could live a happy life still

also if they are hard to sell,dont breed them,dont incubate the eggs,they are in our care,they are our responsibility,culling because u have to many mouths to feed or cant sell them or give them away,or cant be stuffed trying to get them to feed is a pretty [email protected] poor excuse for culling them in my eyes

a reptilian equivelent of the hitler regime all over again,lol


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## turtle (May 1, 2012)

Snowman said:


> What are the legalities of culling a licensed animal?



I think people just don't add them in the books so basically they never existed. Harsh I know but if your breeding for quality and pattern you will understand.

Dan


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## junglepython2 (May 1, 2012)

A snake in the grand scheme of things is no greater then the rodents we cull to feed them. (unless there is some conservation value)


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## Red_LaCN (May 1, 2012)

When my mother was pregnant with me she had a hard time. She nearly lost me a few months before i was born,and was ordered to have bed rest so she didnt go into premature labor. I was born 3wks prem and weak,but i survived.

Im sure many of us know people who have a intellectual disability or such,i know i do.

Im also sure that many of us have children,some of whom where a bit slow to latch onto the breast and feed,or have had problems with feeding. Some of our children may have ADD or trouble with literacy,slow learners.

We all know people with a life threatening illness,or will know someone close who will have,or perhaps be unlucky ourselves.

I work in aged care,i see people who continue to fight to live,some who fear death,some who pray for it,and some who would be better off if death came. We do our best to comfort and ease those who suffer. Some of those whom i assist with their daily living need feeding via a peg tube. Is this force feeding?
We fight in hospitals to assist the weak,some make it,some dont.

God help us if snakes ruled the earth.


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## Darlyn (May 1, 2012)

I would call peg feeding a human who has very poor quality of life cruel.
Much more cruel than putting a snake to death swiftly.


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## Slateman (May 1, 2012)

I am culling deformed hatchings, but I am keeping bad feeders and giving them more attention. In majority cases they turn to strong adults. Some hatching just don,t feed immediately like the others ( I am finding this to be case mainly with black headed pythons).
But after few forcefeeds or asisted feeds they turn to be as strong snakes and good feders like the others. There is no black and white solution here. Many of my strong adults was poor feeders for first year.


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## Colin (May 1, 2012)

richardsc said:


> also if they are hard to sell, dont breed them, dont incubate the eggs, they are in our care, they are our responsibility, culling because u have to many mouths to feed or cant sell them or give them away, or cant be stuffed trying to get them to feed is a pretty [email protected] poor excuse for culling them in my eyes



I totally agree with this. If you breed snakes that may not be the prettiest or up to the standard you’re looking for I’m sure there’s plenty of young kids or people who can’t afford to spend a lot of money buying reptiles who would be very appreciative to get them for free and give them a good home.

Encouraging others and helping others to get into the hobby that we love is a great reason to give a few of these animals away and give these reptiles a home instead of culling in my opinion. culling for the right reasons has its place but should not be done because a reptile is a little difficult to get started feeding or because the keeper has too many to feed. 

And yes I’ve given some away to people I know who I think deserve them but can’t afford them or for other reasons. And not crappy looking ones or ones with anything wrong with them either. most of these I could have sold easily but gave away to previous customers, friends and people I wanted to encourage inthe hobby. There’s nothing wrong with selling reptiles for a fair price and it’sgood to recoup some costs of keeping but it’s also good to give a few away as well..


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## Snowman (May 2, 2012)

turtle said:


> I think people just don't add them in the books so basically they never existed. Harsh I know but if your breeding for quality and pattern you will understand.
> 
> Dan



Don't you have to put eggs in the book? We do in WA, so if you have a clutch and are inspected they expect to see that you have recorded it... Until we get carbon copy books there is nothing stopping people from re-writing their records when it comes time to submitt them though...


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## turtle (May 2, 2012)

Yes it's the same in Vic but people can just fill out the books after everything hatches, or not fill it out at all for that matter. The DSE is nice enough to give you a courtesy call also a few days prior so you have plenty of time to fill in the books then. Stupid I know but the DSE just do not have the man power or resources to control this which is a shame to the hobby. Look I personally do breed for quality and pattern and cull plenty of hatchies every year. I am an animal technician by profession so culling animals is what I do, mostly primates so I don't want to here about the legalalities but from reading some of the posts I will definately consider giving some away.

Dan


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## richardsc (May 2, 2012)

turtle,u cull healthy ones that dont show color and pattern your after?


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## Snowman (May 2, 2012)

turtle said:


> Yes it's the same in Vic but people can just fill out the books after everything hatches, or not fill it out at all for that matter. The DSE is nice enough to give you a courtesy call also a few days prior so you have plenty of time to fill in the books then. Stupid I know but the DSE just do not have the man power or resources to control this which is a shame to the hobby. Look I personally do breed for quality and pattern and cull plenty of hatchies every year. I am an animal technician by profession so culling animals is what I do, mostly primates so I don't want to here about the legalalities but from reading some of the posts I will definately consider giving some away.
> 
> Dan



So you are saying that it is illegal.... isnt that breaking site rule 15?


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## turtle (May 2, 2012)

Yes I do but I do it humanely using leathabarb (leathal injection). Please dont flame me as most professional breeders I know do the same. What do you think happens to all the sibs that get produced from jags? Its just the reality of things. You just dont hear of it.


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## Snowman (May 2, 2012)

So you are a professional breeder?


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## Kam333 (May 2, 2012)

turtle said:


> Yes I do but I do it humanely using leathabarb (leathal injection). Please dont flame me as most professional breeders I know do the same. What do you think happens to all the sibs that get produced from jags? Its just the reality of things. You just dont hear of it.



And once upon a time we kept reptiles as we had a love for animals. I have been breeding different snakes for colors, patterns and or funky anomalies for a long time and have a huge amount of offspring didnt turn out how I would want. . . .but I didnt KILL EM. . . . no, no now Im stuck with a lot of mouths to feed. But that is my responsibility. . as said before the same could be said about kids.


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## Snowman (May 2, 2012)

Some people just shouldnt breed... Oh they shouldnt breed snakes either!


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## S&M Morelia (May 2, 2012)

turtle said:


> Yes I do but I do it humanely using leathabarb (leathal injection). Please dont flame me as most professional breeders I know do the same. What do you think happens to all the sibs that get produced from jags? Its just the reality of things. You just dont hear of it.


Not going to flame, just want to inform. But seeing as you are an Animal Technician you know how Lethabarb works etc. so I have a few questions for you and a bit of a run down about what I know of lethabarb and it's use with reptiles.
As for your mention about the Sibs to jags, ask Colin how many he's culled.

Anyways, here goes...

I'm curious as to how you euthanise your animals with lethabarb.
Do you inject intravenously?
Do you inject subcaudal? If so, lethabarb generally won't work as designed and will cause a slow painful death, imo.
Do you inject into a cavity? eg Lungs, Stomach, intestines etc?
Or do you try and find the heart and inject it directly?


In my opinion, you are far better off using a hammer onto the animals head.


As most of you will know that a snake's metobolism is quite slow.
Their breathing is quite infrequent and their heart rate is quite small in BPM.


So for lethabarb to work effectively, it is commonly injected intravenously (directly into the blood stream via a vein) in mammals. So when it comes to reptiles, how do you find a vein? You pretty much can't. So you need to find another method of injecting.

So the next best method of injecting lethabarb is to be injected directly into the heart.
So to find it, you will have to insert the needle into the body of the animal, hoping to get the heart, let go of the needle and wait for a heart beat. The heart beat will then actually shake the needle, letting you know you're in the right place and you can then inject the lethabarb.
Imagine trying to do this on a young animal? The heart wouldn't be big enough or strong enough to shake the needle.


Then comes cavity injections. If you were to be injecting the lethabarb into a caviuty such as the lungs, stomach, intestines etc, (as said previously, for lethabarb to work it has to be in the blood stream)it can take up quite a while for the injection to reach the heart and be fatal through absorbtion into the bloodstream.


So personally if I was in the position to "cull" animals I would definitely not use lethabarb. There are other methods that would work much quicker (aka better) than a lethal injection.


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## richardsc (May 2, 2012)

turtle said:


> Yes I do but I do it humanely using leathabarb (leathal injection). Please dont flame me as most professional breeders I know do the same. What do you think happens to all the sibs that get produced from jags? Its just the reality of things. You just dont hear of it.



im not going to flame you mate,and i know its common with alot of folk,and i admire your honesty about it,i guess if it is done humanely,not so cruel,i just dont think i could stomach doing that,but thats just me personally though,i couldnt breed stuff just to keep the pretty ones and cull the others


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## Snowman (May 2, 2012)

S&M Morelia said:


> Not going to flame, just want to inform. But seeing as you are an Animal Technician you know how Lethabarb works etc. so I have a few questions for you and a bit of a run down about what I know of lethabarb and it's use with reptiles.
> As for your mention about the Sibs to jags, ask Colin how many he's culled.
> 
> Anyways, here goes...
> ...



Very interesting post. Just goes to show how a little bit of knowledge (Turtle) can be a dangerous thing. Poor little snakes.... "duhh... well it worked well with primates...."


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## junglepython2 (May 2, 2012)

Is freezing with prior cooling still considered humane? Or is that out of favour now? I have a couple that need to meet there maker and i'm thinking the hammer is the most humane of the lot.


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## richardsc (May 2, 2012)

junglepython2 said:


> Is freezing with prior cooling still considered humane? Or is that out of favour now? I have a couple that need to meet there maker and i'm thinking the hammer is the most humane of the lot.




thats actually a great question,what are humane ways

not sure on the hammer,could easily miss the target area


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## Scleropages (May 2, 2012)

Wow killing sibs because you breed Jags is kinda low.


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## turtle (May 2, 2012)

I just think it's great to talk about this debate as it's pretty interesting. 
If you want to talk about lethabarb, I do inject directly into the heart. I never miss. Drawing back, indicates you are in.
I don't own any jags as i cant stand them so personally I don't cull any sibs. A few well known breeders I know do, however I do cull. I personally don't like the hammer method as it's messy.


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## miss_mosher (May 2, 2012)

Most of our reptiles were given to us because they were on the verge of dying from starvation or ill in general. Our coastal carpet was the size of a hatchling at two years old - with time and patience it has become an eating machine that breeders around here keep trying to buy off is, which will never happen. Also our psycho spotted I still psycho and a weak spotted became a loved and healthy favourite. Our weak blue tongue is still kicking and it's brother is a monster. 

In the end, if someone has the time and love

Didn't get to finish 

If someone has the time and patience to look after a disadvantaged animal, then good on them. I don't mind culling (humanely and fairly) otherwise it will become the problem we see in pounds and the RSPCA.

However, people killing off their animals because they don't have certain traits is ridiculous. Isn't that what happened in WWII after all? Haha sorry, I went there


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## Jeffa (May 2, 2012)

Honest question. What would be the average euth of a clutch of pures compared to jags? I seem to only see about a max of 10 jags as opposed to around 25 (pure coastals or jungles) Does this mean that they generally produce a fewer clutch? There are more problems during incubation as they are a imperior breed? or that the majority are killed off because they have a high percentage of neuro or are ugly snakes that cannot be sold for alot of money? Again, honest question. I am sure that there are larger clutch sizes but seem always smaller to say a pure. 
Cheers


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## Oldoneyoung (May 2, 2012)

This is a very interesting topic and I have enjoyed reading. A couple of things I wanted to put forward is as follows. My understanding is that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is no longer considered to be humane by animal welfare organisations, at least not in NSW. As the process actually takes a lot longer then it was once thought and is painful for the reptile in question. 

The advice now given for animal rescuers/carers that have to euthanise reptiles is to either do so by by crushing it's skull with a hammer or some heavy blunt object (messy and unpleasant for the person doing so, but generally humane for the animal if done right) or if it's practical to take the the animal to a vet. 
The vet will usually in my experience then use lethabarb for the task. While I have trained as a lethalist technician I have not myself euthanised a reptile by this means. When I've assisted the vet to do it the animals have always died very quickly as opposed to what S&MMorelia has suggested above. However with the unique metabolic systems of reptiles I can understand the concern. Lethabarb is not perfect and being a very caustic material sometimes animals can react badly to the drug before it ceases brain function. It absolutely stands to reason that a body that operates at a slower rate would drag out the process and the animal suffer before it's brain shuts down. 

Above Turtle has stated that he injects into the heart and never misses. While I don't intend to sound critical and I am enjoying this debate on it's intellectual merits, I have difficulty believing that anybody could consistantly conduct heart shots and not miss. I only occasionally have to euthanise with Lethabarb and have only maybe put down a hundred or so mammals and birds thus myself. However I work closely with people who have euth'd animals in the thousands and a heart shot is usually the last option unless the animal is already sedated. The heart can be very difficult to get in mammals. I would think it even harder in reptiles given the size differences and occasional difficulty piercing the scales. 

On the issue of culling weaker offspring I can fully understand how it sounds very sad to people who are used to wanting to save everything. As an animal lover I often feel the same. However I have learned to become more objective and sometimes we do more harm with misinformed compassion then otherwise. Survival of the fittest is the rule in nature, when we interfere with that rule by keeping animals alive that would otherwise die in the wild we allow for indiscrimnate breeding to occur. Which can cause animals to potentially be produced with defects that can actually cause suffering to the animal unbeknownst to the outside observer and then pass on those traits to future generations. My veiws on death being some terrible thing may have changed in recent years but I am still totally against animal suffering. As sad or clinical as it may sound, strictly controlled breeding is I think the best option.


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## chilli (May 2, 2012)

Snowman said:


> Some people just shouldnt breed... Oh they shouldnt breed snakes either!



ironically, there never would have been an OP


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## S&M Morelia (May 2, 2012)

Fair enough Oldoneyoung. I was just posting from my experience.
Can you please post as to how the vet euthinaised the reptiles? As in location/type of injection?

Cheers.
Shaun.


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## Oldoneyoung (May 2, 2012)

No worries. The last reptile I took to to vet to be euth'd was a large bluetongue which had been chomped on by a large dog. The attack had crushed and split open the lower half of it's body. I think it was a heart shot from memory. It was injected through the underside of the reptile. The vet had trouble getting through the scale at first, particularly as the damage to bluetongue meant that the pressure from the needle on the scales was enough to force the internal organs to shift around changing the shape of the subject lizard. However once she got through the scale she found the heart with relative ease and like with most animals death was almost instantaneous. I have since euth'd other reptiles using the flat side of a hatchet. While it is very effective it can be very difficult for a person to hit the desired area. Anybody with a weak stomach is likely to hesitate and may miss entirely. Unfortunately there does not appear to be a foolproof system for euthanising reptiles. Not that I've heard of anyway.


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## phantomreptiles (May 2, 2012)

Like at "oldoneyoung"  (on tapatalk so don't have that option)

In regards to lethabarb, I do not believe it should be given without first using an anesthetic such as Isoflurane, unless you can of course obtain intravenous access. Using Iso can be difficult with reptiles, pythons especially. So although the hammer option is distasteful I believe it to be the most humane. And i mean this option only for pythons. This is just my opinion combined with the 16years experience of euthanizing all types of animals. 

I also find it hard to believe that someone could find the heart 100% of the time with one shot....

Obviously the above is OT, but I agree with culling the weak & sick, (exactly as we do with our rats), culling because of pattern I don't personally agree with, but that's what dog breeders do (eg white boxer pups), and I am sure anyone that has ever bred anything has culled. It's about bettering the breed to produce the the healthiest, fittest and most desirable. (to name a few traits)
At the end of the day, it happens, it will always happen and as long it is humane I am ok with it.


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## Oldoneyoung (May 3, 2012)

Good example "phantomreptiles" Dog breeders have beening culling unwanted puppies for thousands of years. It has probably played a major role in why different dog breeds are so well defined by type. (or were until recent years) For instance Germany is well known for having some of the finest bred dogs alive and culling is very much a common practice there. Unfortunately the down side of human controlled breeding is that there are plenty of ignorant and foolish people in the world and that means that sometimes things go very badly for the animals.

(My next comment may seem off topic but I'm addressing an issue that was brought up further back in the thread)

While on most issues I strive to be objective and tend to sit firmly on the fence without taking sides. I will say to all those people who spout the idea "free to a good home" like it is the answer to all animal overpopulation problems. You really have no idea. Good homes are such a rare commodity compared to the massively overwhelming numbers of unwanted pets that have to be destroyed every year by the people who actually love animals enough that they are willing to get their hands dirty doing the jobs that are too "inhumane" for everyone else.
It is because of backyard breeders and puppy/kitten mills that produce animals purely to make an easy dollar and not take responsibilty for their animals that these destruction numbers are so high. Couple that with the fact that if you give away all these unwanted animals for free. You are then going to have a lot more of these animals now in the "care" of people who are not always willing to spend money to desex or build a secure yard which would otherwise prevent all these unwanted litters being conceived. Not to mention those same people are less likely to spend the money to feed, vacinate, treat for parasites or pay for veterinary expenses of these animals which were "free to a good home". Most Animal shelters and Rescue Organisations try to screen their potential buyers to work out whethor they should be sold pets. But unfortunately resources is always an issue and not everyone can be thoroughly investigated and of course there is always the sad fact thay some people lie. lol I just realised I starting venting a bit there. Oh well I'm okay with it.


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## richardsc (May 3, 2012)

For instance Germany is well known for having some of the finest bred dogs alive and culling is very much a common practice 

they tried to do it with humans to



it is an interesting thread though,amazingly hasnt gone super angsty,pros and cons both ways


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## KaotikJezta (May 3, 2012)

Oldoneyoung said:


> Good example "phantomreptiles" Dog breeders have beening culling unwanted puppies for thousands of years. It has probably played a major role in why different dog breeds are so well defined by type. (or were until recent years) For instance Germany is well known for having some of the finest bred dogs alive and culling is very much a common practice there. Unfortunately the down side of human controlled breeding is that there are plenty of ignorant and foolish people in the world and that means that sometimes things go very badly for the animals.
> 
> (My next comment may seem off topic but I'm addressing an issue that was brought up further back in the thread)
> 
> ...




Hmmm, a lot of shelters screening standards are so ridiculously high that even the best homes are refused animals.


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## Tassie97 (May 3, 2012)

wow... this opened my eyes, I could never ever hit an animal with a hammer!


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## Oldoneyoung (May 3, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> Hmmm, a lot of shelters screening standards are so ridiculously high that even the best homes are refused animals.



Well I can't accurately comment on that. My experience of shelter srceening standards is limited to the City where I work. However I'm sure there are people who have been gently turned away from our shelter that went on to say the same thing themselves.
It can be very difficult to know what the people will be like at looking after their pets. But shelters usually look at things that are a bit more obvious such as how secure their yard is, what other animals they keep and what sort of pet they want to adopt, will that pet be able to be kept in that yard, with those other animals, will it suit their lifestyle etc. 
Sometimes they think an animal is going to a great home with great people just to have it returned a couple of days later with some of the lamest excuses imaginable. (It poops more then I thought, it jumps up on me, it won't learn any tricks, it won't come when I call it..the list goes on an on) The people who work at shelters genuinely want to rehome as many animals as possible. so much so that more often then not they will take that little bit of risk that the animal may not be going into the most perfect situation. But they are continually let down by these people in whom they have shown trust. This and countless others reasons like it is exactly why people in my profession become so cynical.


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## Colin (May 5, 2012)

some of my siblings.. alive and doing well


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