# my custom gtp enclosure



## herp.derp (Jul 4, 2013)

after about 7 months of wasting my time with other enclosure builders, I present to you all, my custom gtp enclosure 

created by Adrian, the entire thing is custom built to my exact specifications, its about 2m high, and 80cm x 70cm
the base and top created to match my furniture, the tank built to the exact size i wanted, and the inside designed and built from the imagination of Adrian himself

everything inside is real, no cheap and tacky paint and fiberglass. the plants are living, the tree branches are real, the rocks are real and so is the sand. this means that over time the scape will grow, develop and change. we also have plans to add plants to the water as well

soo far it only houses my recently acquired gtp, though its soon to house a praying mantis, various fish, sea snails, shrimp








opinions appreciated


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## Jeffa (Jul 4, 2013)

Awesome. The only issue may be where you are located. Glass is an extremely poor insulator, so if you are are prety far south try a backing of timber or foam to help keep the warmth up especially in winter. otherwise Awesome.


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## hunterschamps (Jul 4, 2013)

Wow, that is amazing! I love the fact it is going to cater for more than one species, very very well designed.


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## Marzzy (Jul 4, 2013)

Does the glass get dirty ? Water marks ? Is it filtered ?


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## andynic07 (Jul 4, 2013)

That is really nice, I love the natural look. Have a look at a facebook site called working with nature by Micheal Cermak there are some nice natural enclosures there and they may even give you more ideas. Great work.


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## SnakeRanch (Jul 4, 2013)

Utterly beautiful

Adrian has done a fantastic job


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## Norm (Jul 4, 2013)

That's awesome! I only question the amount of maintenance but if you`ve got the time and motivation to do it, great! Very nice set up!


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## herp.derp (Jul 4, 2013)

Marzzy said:


> Does the glass get dirty ? Water marks ? Is it filtered ?



some slight marks have built up from the water level. easily removed with paper towel
and yes the water is filtered and heated


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## Sarah (Jul 4, 2013)

wow looks amazing, did you have to graft the plants onto the rock is their any soil at all.


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## reptalica (Jul 4, 2013)

Just curious what % humidity do GTP's ideally need to be kept at??????


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## Marzzy (Jul 4, 2013)

reptalica said:


> Just curious what % humidity do GTP's ideally need to be kept at??????



80 % young 60 % when older ?


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## herp.derp (Jul 4, 2013)

Sarah said:


> wow looks amazing, did you have to graft the plants onto the rock is their any soil at all.


the plants are actually planted into soil, there is a 'making of' video which can be seen here
el culebra - YouTube



reptalica said:


> Just curious what % humidity do GTP's ideally need to be kept at??????



iv read between 70 and 90%. correct me if wrong
the enclosure has a misting system which keeps the humidity constant


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## Sarah (Jul 4, 2013)

thanks for the link.What kind of lights do you need to keep the plant growth up.


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## herp.derp (Jul 4, 2013)

Sarah said:


> thanks for the link.What kind of lights do you need to keep the plant growth up.



standard UVB lights, set on a timer for 12hrs a day


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## Rogue5861 (Jul 4, 2013)

herp.derp said:


> standard UVB lights, set on a timer for 12hrs a day



UVB lights aren't plant lights, plants done need UVB.


Rick


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## jibbyt (Jul 4, 2013)

I would be be putting vines etc in branches. Gtps like cover, they like the camouflage and protection of foliage. Great to view it like it is but its very exposed, otherwise nice tank. ( cover it up with blanket at night helps to preseve heat.)


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## PetPac (Jul 4, 2013)

Hi. The "UVB" globes in use are the Exo Terra 2%, 26watt compacts, now called "natural light". The UVB output is minimal however the spectrum is perfect for plant growth in terrariums.
I'm unsure of the ambient room temperature however in most homes these days heat escape from an enclosure like this isn't an issue.


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## ronhalling (Jul 5, 2013)

What an amazing rainforest ecosystem you are producing with this setup, i will deff be keeping my eyes open to see how this looks in another 6 months or so, not too many people put the time and thought into making multilevel systems with life from the very bottom right up to the canopy, well done, it is gr8  .........................Ron


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

Looks fantastic. How are you heating it?


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## Waterrat (Jul 5, 2013)

Looks fantastic but there are few things fundamentally wrong.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

Actually Chondros do better with fluctuating humidity, as they would encounter in the wild. During the dry season in their natural habitat the humdity can be very low for weeks. It's a myth that they need constant very high humidity, and it can lead to skin problems if they can't "dry out" most of the time.

Whilst the enclosure looks great from a human perspective, the water reservoir will become a huge bacterial soup as soon as the snake drops faecal matter into it, especially as you say the water is heated. Once the rocks become coated with a film of bacteria, you'll never be able to remove the fecal bacteria from its drinking water. 

This was always the problem with Stein enclosures - they may look OK but the maintenance is huge and hygiene is impossible to maintain. If you had 3000 litres of water it may be a different story, but a decent snake crap in a small amount of water like that, especially warmed to improve the breeding of bacteria...

Jamie


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## herp.derp (Jul 5, 2013)

jibbyt said:


> I would be be putting vines etc in branches. Gtps like cover, they like the camouflage and protection of foliage. Great to view it like it is but its very exposed, otherwise nice tank. ( cover it up with blanket at night helps to preseve heat.)


there is a climbing plant which has been placed at the base of one of the branches. it should double its size within a month and create adequate cover over the branch



James_Scott said:


> Looks fantastic. How are you heating it?


standard infrared head lamps



Waterrat said:


> Looks fantastic but there are few things fundamentally wrong.


care to elaborate then?


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## herp.derp (Jul 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Actually Chondros do better with fluctuating humidity, as they would encounter in the wild. During the dry season in their natural habitat the humdity can be very low for weeks. It's a myth that they need constant very high humidity, and it can lead to skin problems if they can't "dry out" most of the time.
> 
> Whilst the enclosure looks great from a human perspective, the water reservoir will become a huge bacterial soup as soon as the snake drops faecal matter into it, especially as you say the water is heated. Once the rocks become coated with a film of bacteria, you'll never be able to remove the fecal bacteria from its drinking water.
> 
> ...



the branches have been placed to try and best avoid this happening


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## Trimeresurus (Jul 5, 2013)

Looks really good, I like it a lot. 

But from a health perspective, I imagine heated water would have the humidity always sitting really high. As Jamie said, this can lead to problems just as easy in chondros as any other, a wet/drying off cycle should me maintained. 

Also can the snake get out of the water? Don't assume GTPs won't crawl down from their perches at night and go for a swim. 

Sucks to hear all this I know but nice tanks don't always mean best for the snake.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

Snakes with a high water intake pass far more water than wild snakes which rarely drink from large bodies of water - that liquid together with even a small amount of fecal matter in the water, will seed the tank with undesirable and potentially pathogenic bacteria.

There seems to be a belief that if a snake has a (slightly) higher occasional need for humidity, that as much humidity as is absolutely possible is even better. This is wrong. In the wild chondros get wet, they dry out... they get wet... they dry out, and for a large part of the year they have no rain whatsoever. They are exposed to breezes and moving air. Set up like this, the tank has almost no chance of escaping becoming a dank, fungal fug. Most Chondro keepers mist once or twice a week, and maybe a bit more often pre-shed, and importantly they let them dry out in between.

As I said, it looks great, but is probably far from ideal in terms of snake husbandry.

Jamie


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## herp.derp (Jul 5, 2013)

Trimeresurus said:


> Looks really good, I like it a lot.
> 
> But from a health perspective, I imagine heated water would have the humidity always sitting really high. As Jamie said, this can lead to problems just as easy in chondros as any other, a wet/drying off cycle should me maintained.
> 
> ...



well the purpose of this thread was also to get feedback and suggestions. i appreciate the constructive comments
how long should the periods be for wet/dry cycles? the misting system can be turned off to allow the humidity to drop to around 50-60%

the snake should be able to pretty easily get out of the water, though i might even add a couple branches in the water leading to the land, just to be certain


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## Justdragons (Jul 5, 2013)

I run a full glass viv for my water dragons and have no problem with heat loss. temps change a little with the seasons but i prefer that. i think it gives them a more natural habitat. Im in Adelaide and its cold as hell here atm. lol 

congrats on a nice viv, you using a canister filter?


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## herp.derp (Jul 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Snakes with a high water intake pass far more water than wild snakes which rarely drink from large bodies of water - that liquid together with even a small amount of fecal matter in the water, will seed the tank with undesirable and potentially pathogenic bacteria.
> 
> There seems to be a belief that if a snake has a (slightly) higher occasional need for humidity, that as much humidity as is absolutely possible is even better. This is wrong. In the wild chondros get wet, they dry out... they get wet... they dry out, and for a large part of the year they have no rain whatsoever. They are exposed to breezes and moving air. Set up like this, the tank has almost no chance of escaping becoming a dank, fungal fug. Most Chondro keepers mist once or twice a week, and maybe a bit more often pre-shed, and importantly they let them dry out in between.
> 
> ...



thanks for the comments. the top of the tank is open to allow air to flow in and out. would some type of fan help the situation?


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## herp.derp (Jul 5, 2013)

Justdragons said:


> I run a full glass viv for my water dragons and have no problem with heat loss. temps change a little with the seasons but i prefer that. i think it gives them a more natural habitat. Im in Adelaide and its cold as hell here atm. lol
> 
> congrats on a nice viv, you using a canister filter?


thanks mate
yep using a canister filter for the water


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## OldestMagician (Jul 5, 2013)

If the water can be drained I see no reason for dangerous bacteria to become a problem. Treat the bottom area like a proper fish tank, spot clean, perhaps do 50% water changes once a week and I think it will work out well.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

You won't need misters at all if you have the water - it's just overkill. Personally I'd get rid of the water, that will be a constant source of problems in the longer run. I understand it is probably a primary feature of the enclosure, but as far as maintaining snake health goes, it's a bad idea. The only way it could work is if you have a constant high through-flow outside into a biological filter to be cleaned then back into the tank, but even that could compromise the health of the snake.

I mist my greens about once a week, and maybe if I'm expecting them to shed, I'll keep them a bit more humid by misting at that time. That is quite sufficient. The "wet tropics" are only wet for about 5 months of the year, and even then it's not raining 24/7.

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

OldestMagician said:


> If the water can be drained I see no reason for dangerous bacteria to become a problem. Treat the bottom area like a proper fish tank, spot clean, perhaps do 50% water changes once a week and I think it will work out well.



If a snake has a crap in its water bowl and it's been in a warm enclosure for a few hours before you notice it, would you just tip it out and fill with fresh water? Or would you scrub it clean and maybe disinfect it before refilling it? The very best you can do in a tank like that is empty the water and refill it - you can't take the rocks out and scrub them to get rid of the fecal bacterial film without disrupting the whole thing... A snake is going to dump a huge amount of material into the water in one hit. A MUCH larger volume of water is needed to make these things truly workable. 

There was a notion, years go, that chondros could be best kept over water... it never took off because it doesn't work unless you have a lot of space, a lot of water and a veritable forest of living plant material to absorb the nitrogenous wastes. That enclosure could work for a very small chondro, hatchling~6months, but that's about the max.

Jamie


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## CptLici (Jul 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> You won't need misters at all if you have the water - it's just overkill. Personally I'd get rid of the water, that will be a constant source of problems in the longer run. I understand it is probably a primary feature of the enclosure, but as far as maintaining snake health goes, it's a bad idea. The only way it could work is if you have a constant high through-flow outside into a biological filter to be cleaned then back into the tank, but even that could compromise the health of the snake.
> 
> I mist my greens about once a week, and maybe if I'm expecting them to shed, I'll keep them a bit more humid by misting at that time. That is quite sufficient. The "wet tropics" are only wet for about 5 months of the year, and even then it's not raining 24/7.
> 
> Jamie



You obviously haven't been to Tully 
Monthly Rainfall - 032042 - Bureau of Meteorology


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

You are going to get differing reports from people that keep snakes to people that keep frogs and then people that keep fish. I personally have a similar set up for my keelback snakes. Admittedly they crap far less than gtps but the same issues are evident with a large body of water being filtered by a canister filter. To start with the health of the plants can be improved by only watering them with the water inside the enclosure. They will filter out the nitrites/nitrates which will fertilise the plants and improve the water quality when it filters back through. The water flow should be increased by using a large canister filter and using a larger than needed bulkhead. This will cycle the water much quicker through the filter removing nasties before they have a chance to fester. The canister filter will have good bacteria in it that will cope with most of it. You will get a good idea of the quality of water by putting in some tropical fish that are more prone to health issues if the water quality is not up to scratch. I have no had any issues with my setup and only ever change the water in the canister filter once a month. Evaporation takes care of the rest and I keep the level up with around 8 litres of water a week to refill it. All of my plants, fish (which constantly breed) and snakes are very healthy and growing at alarming rates. This is a relatively new concept for Australian Herpetology and there are some forums overseas that are a better source of info. PM me for details.


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## RedFox (Jul 5, 2013)

CptLici said:


> You obviously haven't been to Tully
> Monthly Rainfall - 032042 - Bureau of Meteorology



Either has a wild green tree python.  lol. Tully still has a good four to five months of dryish weather. Because the environment has adapted to get lots of rain it doesn't take all that long for things to dry out. Humidity easily would get to under 60% after a couple of weeks of dry. 

As for the enclosure you could remove the water add a bio substrate and plant out the bottom. If you google living vivariums there are stacks of ideas online, especially if you look at dendroboard forum. If you want multiple animals living together you could try adding green tree frogs with your GTP, or add some insects.


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> You are going to get differing reports from people that keep snakes to people that keep frogs and then people that keep fish. I personally have a similar set up for my keelback snakes. Admittedly they crap far less than gtps but the same issues are evident with a large body of water being filtered by a canister filter. To start with the health of the plants can be improved by only watering them with the water inside the enclosure. They will filter out the nitrites/nitrates which will fertilise the plants and improve the water quality when it filters back through. The water flow should be increased by using a large canister filter and using a larger than needed bulkhead. This will cycle the water much quicker through the filter removing nasties before they have a chance to fester. The canister filter will have good bacteria in it that will cope with most of it. You will get a good idea of the quality of water by putting in some tropical fish that are more prone to health issues if the water quality is not up to scratch. I have no had any issues with my setup and only ever change the water in the canister filter once a month. Evaporation takes care of the rest and I keep the level up with around 8 litres of water a week to refill it. All of my plants, fish (which constantly breed) and snakes are very healthy and growing at alarming rates. This is a relatively new concept for Australian Herpetology and there are some forums overseas that are a better source of info. PM me for details.



James_scott makes some very good points. In addition when cleaning canister filter dependant on frequency, clean media with water already in tank (media being bio balls etc not filter wool) beneficial bacteria takes approx. 4 to 6 weeks to establish and have the correct bio load to cope, stock levels dependant. Cleaning all filter media starts the whole process fron scratch and will have your nitrite/nitrate levels spiking dangerously especially if you have fish in there . Ps. I do like the enclosure


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

CptLici said:


> You obviously haven't been to Tully
> Monthly Rainfall - 032042 - Bureau of Meteorology



As has been said, GTPs don't live anywhere near Tully. You might want to, more appropriately, look at the dry season humidity records for Iron Range, where GTPs actually live. http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/ID...2.latest.shtml 

I'm assuming that Keelbacks are relatively small and don't eat rodents, so don't pass large solid stools which are mainly composed of rodent hair? I've tried to point out that it's a relative thing - relative to the size of the water reservoir and the load it's expected to cope with especially. That's not a large body of water for a snake or a tank that size. If it was linked to an outside sump filled with sedges and swamp plants, they could probably deal with the waste quite effectively, but there isn't anywhere near enough space in that tank to accommodate sufficient live plants to deal with the waste of a large snake. The nitrogen cycle - ammonia - nitrite - nitrate = food for plants takes a while to develop, and relies on bacteria, especially the first two stages. To remain in balance, it needs a reasonably stable flow of nutrients (fish, snake waste) into the system. Dumping 40gm of snake waste into a large system will have little effect, do it in a small body of water and you'll constantly be trying to stop the stink.

Jamie


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## CptLici (Jul 5, 2013)

RedFox said:


> Either has a wild green tree python.  lol. Tully still has a good four to five months of dryish weather. Because the environment has adapted to get lots of rain it doesn't take all that long for things to dry out. Humidity easily would get to under 60% after a couple of weeks of dry.
> 
> As for the enclosure you could remove the water add a bio substrate and plant out the bottom. If you google living vivariums there are stacks of ideas online, especially if you look at dendroboard forum. If you want multiple animals living together you could try adding green tree frogs with your GTP, or add some insects.



Actually, the BOM says otherwise.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

CptLici said:


> Actually, the BOM says otherwise.



What? That GTPs ARE found around Tully !

J


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

Of course they're wet... sometimes... and you naturally picked the wettest place in Australia... but what would old buggers like me & Waterrat know? Despite having been to IR, having kept freshwater & marine fish, frogs, lizards, and snakes (even chondros) over a very long period of time and having tried this stuff out for decades... I managed the live animals exhibits at the WA Museum for a significant amount of time, so I have some experience to share. I do remember being clobbered because I was critical of the Stein enclosures with huge water reservoirs in the bottom, and from the feedback I have had I wasn't too far off the mark. It's simply a matter of form over function...

I too have said the enclosure looks great, my concern is with it's long-term function and the health of the primary inhabitant. The great look might belie some significant practical problems...

Jamie


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

I would love to see a thread to show people how to deal with problems they encounter. It is common with FAQ's in aquarium forums, but there is a wealth of knowledge on this site that could be used more tactfully and seen as advice and not criticism for all of us. I liked Pythoninfinite's suggestion of increasing the aquatic plant life to assist in breaking down fecal matter and to begin the first stage of waste to fertiliser conversion. The advice on cleaning canister bio material was also extremely important. For anybody wanting to attempt this kind of setup, I say go for it, but remember what Jamie and others have said. This kind of setup requires constant checking on the health of the animals and quality of water. Long term it may require a thorough scrub and clean with antibacterial chemicals. Personally I think the effort is worth it. I am an avid believer in reducing the number of reptiles we keep so we can put more time into their husbandry needs. I hate seeing a beautiful snake on newspaper. I still have a number of snakes on newspaper which I am slowly either moving on or converting.


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

I would like some answers for people new to this kind of setup. 1. How can I check the quality of water? 2. How fast should the water flow be in the tank and how can I control it? 3. What kind of aquatic plants work best to clean the water? 4. Do I need special lighting for aquatic plants? 5. How often should I change the water? 6. Do I need to change the soil substrate and if so how often?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> I would love to see a thread to show people how to deal with problems they encounter. It is common with FAQ's in aquarium forums, but there is a wealth of knowledge on this site that could be used more tactfully and seen as advice and not criticism for all of us. I liked Pythoninfinite's suggestion of increasing the aquatic plant life to assist in breaking down fecal matter and to begin the first stage of waste to fertiliser conversion. The advice on cleaning canister bio material was also extremely important. For anybody wanting to attempt this kind of setup, I say go for it, but remember what Jamie and others have said. This kind of setup requires constant checking on the health of the animals and quality of water. Long term it may require a thorough scrub and clean with antibacterial chemicals. Personally I think the effort is worth it. I am an avid believer in reducing the number of reptiles we keep so we can put more time into their husbandry needs. I hate seeing a beautiful snake on newspaper. I still have a number of snakes on newspaper which I am slowly either moving on or converting.



I wholeheartedly agree with you Scott in every point you make. My desire to jump in on these threads is because everyone except the oldies just LOVE the look but are unaware of the drawbacks, and if it leads to a real discussion about the practicalities, then we might all learn something new. I love the idea of these things in naturalistic habitats, but the notion that Chondos need to be saturated with water most of the time is just wrong. A tank like that, with heated water in the bottom, relatively limited ventilation, and misters operating from the top will probably kill almost every living thing put in it, except for fungi & mould. The photos showed it to be extremely wet, the vegetation was saturated, and I can see little chance of this improving in a relatively closed environment. It won't take long for the plants to start yellowing and going to sludge if they can't remain dry most of the time. Ventilation is critical, and to be honest, I can't see how you can have good ventilation in a tank like this without losing needed heat.

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> I would like some answers for people new to this kind of setup. 1. How can I check the quality of water? 2. How fast should the water flow be in the tank and how can I control it? 3. What kind of aquatic plants work best to clean the water? 4. Do I need special lighting for aquatic plants? 5. How often should I change the water? 6. Do I need to change the soil substrate and if so how often?



I'm already a couple of hours later than I should be for doing some brushcutting on my neighbour's property... I'll get back to it in the weekend. I have done a few of these things in the past, some successful, some not so...

Jamie


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

Many people who keep dart frogs in Europe deal with the problem of ventilation by installing small computer fans that draw air from the top and blow it out near the base of the substrate. This helps to dry the substrate without the fear of a draft for the snake. You will need to install a container for the fan with wire mesh at both ends.


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

To keep the aesthetics going you could mount it in a vertical hollow log.


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

I can give a few more pointers for people wanting to start one of these. The plants to use on land for the most part don't need to be planted in the soil if you use the following. Orchids, Bromeliads, air plants and many species of hoya. These simply can be tied to a log or pinned on the wall of the enclosure depending how you are set up. As for lighting most plants require 4000 - 5000 lumens to thrive in an indoor environment. Bromeliads don't mind lower light levels.


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## Waterrat (Jul 5, 2013)

Nobody seemed to mention or consider the FACT that GTPs often descend to the ground and they sometimes rest on the ground for days. Someone mentioned they like to go for swim - GTPs don't swim unless they have to. The stringy bark on the branches will be damp and possibly cause discomfort if not worse to the snake, They always prefer smooth branches to rest on. Knowing little bit about the animal's ecology helps a long way but it's apparently not fashionable amongst pet owners. My 2 bob worth.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

One of the best all-rounders is Devil's Ivy or Pothos, happy to grow in soil or doesn't mind having its roots in water. Easy to grow from cuttings and is either straight green or variegated. Syngoniums are good too. Heaps of stuff on the web about lighting for indoor plants - seems that normal daylight flouros are as good as almost anything for most applications.

CptLici, 4 PMs in an hour is enough I think, if you want to discuss anything pertinent to this thread (and to date your PMs don't indicate that) please do it here on the open forum. Thanks matey.

Jamie

J


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

Waterrat said:


> Nobody seemed to mention or consider the FACT that GTPs often descend to the ground and they sometimes rest on the ground for days. Someone mentioned they like to go for swim - GTPs don't swim unless they have to. The stringy bark on the branches will be damp and possibly cause discomfort if not worse to the snake, They always prefer smooth branches to rest on. Knowing little bit about the animal's ecology helps a long way but it's apparently not fashionable amongst pet owners. My 2 bob worth.


 This is where I think a dedicated discussion board would be good for this subject. We could have suggestions on how to set up a vivarium to suit the needs of that particular species. The better suited environment for the species the less problems we will encounter. Waterrat is probably the most knowledgeable on this forum when it comes to GTP's so I would be very interested to hear how you would set up a vivarium for a GTP. Please keep in mind most of us don't have the room or the tropical environment for outdoor aviaries.


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## Waterrat (Jul 5, 2013)

James, I don't have vivariums, I keep everything outdoors except for gravid females and hatchlings. So, I can't really help there. We tried keeping GTP over water at the zoo and it was a disaster. One thing though, re- humidity and wet substrates: I use sphagnum moss for substrate in juvenile enclosures and I only water it when it's completely dry, i.e. about once a week. As Jamie said, the wet / dry cycle is important.


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

This is an issue I have with Vivariums that use egg crate for a false bottom. The traditional method is to wrap flywire around it to stop soil from falling into the water. The problem with this is that the water evaporates and enters the substrate from the bottom. This works its way to the top of the substrate and the entire floor is moist. Not enough to grow moss, but not great conditions to keep herps. I am testing a new method of putting the false floor on an angle where it is higher at the back and lower at the front. I will also place less permeable material over the egg crate that will still allow drainage but have less issues with evaporation. I use orchid mix, a small amount of sand and leaf litter as a substrate. Keep in mind a substrate for one species may not be suitable for another.


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## Flaviruthless (Jul 5, 2013)

I currently have pothos, syngoniums, bromeliads, palms, calatheas, fittonia, tradescantias and diffenbachias growing in my GTP tanks, using nothing more than a $5 fluoro from Bunnings. I think with planted tanks it is better if you can let the tank cycle for a while prior to adding any animals (I let mine run for close to two months) as this will reduce the likelihood of having mould and fungal explosions (it's pretty dramatic!) and gives you more of a feel for the plants before it gets too complicated. It also lets the plants establish themselves before they get trashed.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 5, 2013)

Yes, I was looking the other day at sites offering advice for cheap effective lighting for indoor plants, and the good old daylight fluoro comes up pretty well, unless you want the very expensive (to buy and run) vapour lamp option...

Jamie


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

I use led flood lights. In singular form and batons.


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## herp.derp (Jul 5, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with you Scott in every point you make. My desire to jump in on these threads is because everyone except the oldies just LOVE the look but are unaware of the drawbacks, and if it leads to a real discussion about the practicalities, then we might all learn something new. I love the idea of these things in naturalistic habitats, but the notion that Chondos need to be saturated with water most of the time is just wrong. A tank like that, with heated water in the bottom, relatively limited ventilation, and misters operating from the top will probably kill almost every living thing put in it, except for fungi & mould. The photos showed it to be extremely wet, the vegetation was saturated, and I can see little chance of this improving in a relatively closed environment. It won't take long for the plants to start yellowing and going to sludge if they can't remain dry most of the time. Ventilation is critical, and to be honest, I can't see how you can have good ventilation in a tank like this without losing needed heat.
> 
> Jamie



the roof is covered by wire mesh, and the wooden top piece does not have a top to it, allowing air to flow freely 
the plants are from an area where they would remain wet for their entire lives, so the moisture wont be a problem
i should state, i am no expert on aquascaping, so i may not have all the answers to your questions and issues, but i can assure you that the guy who made the enclosure is an expert in the field, having done so for about 10 years, i fully trust his knowledge and judgement 
he has similar setups in his shop in carnegie which are also misted regularly and wet all day. they are thriving and have been for years now

i really must stress that this isnt a situation like some of the current custom reptile enclosure builders, who are basically just cabinet makers, adrian has worked in this field for a very long time and really knows what hes doing


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> I would like some answers for people new to this kind of setup. 1. How can I check the quality of water? 2. How fast should the water flow be in the tank and how can I control it? 3. What kind of aquatic plants work best to clean the water? 4. Do I need special lighting for aquatic plants? 5. How often should I change the water? 6. Do I need to change the soil substrate and if so how often?


The info pertaining to water quality/flow etc Im happy to help out with feel free to PM me for details if you so wish. I can recommend easy and cost effective ways to monitor and maintain water quality. My experience comes from 20 odd years with tropical fish breeding etc.


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## Cypher69 (Jul 5, 2013)

BeZaKa said:


> The info pertaining to water quality/flow etc Im happy to help out with feel free to PM me for details if you so wish. I can recommend easy and cost effective ways to monitor and maintain water quality. My experience comes from 20 odd years with tropical fish breeding etc.



I'm just wondering about those UV filter systems (mainly used for ponds)....would this be a beneficial addition to the current canister filter OR would it also kill off the "good bacteria" in the water?


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

BeZaKa said:


> The info pertaining to water quality/flow etc Im happy to help out with feel free to PM me for details if you so wish. I can recommend easy and cost effective ways to monitor and maintain water quality. My experience comes from 20 odd years with tropical fish breeding etc.


Thanks BeZaKa, but I'm hoping somebody will post on the forum so the information is there for everybody to learn. Maybe we should start a new Vivarium how to thread so we are not hijacking this one.


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

Cypher69 said:


> I'm just wondering about those UV filter systems (mainly used for ponds)....would this be a beneficial addition to the current canister filter OR would it also kill off the "good bacteria" in the water?



There are many diff forms of uv filters however the uv filtration will not kill off beneficial bacteria. Safe to use


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> Thanks BeZaKa, but I'm hoping somebody will post on the forum so the information is there for everybody to learn. Maybe we should start a new Vivarium how to thread so we are not hijacking this one.


Ill keep an eye out for the viv thread. Unfortunately its a topic that is relatively simple but the pet trade can over complicate with additional things you NEED to buy. Keeping the quality of the water decent even with large amounts of ammonia being generated via fecal matter deposits can be handled by a decently set up canister filter which doesn't need to cost the earth.


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## herp.derp (Jul 5, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> Thanks BeZaKa, but I'm hoping somebody will post on the forum so the information is there for everybody to learn. Maybe we should start a new Vivarium how to thread so we are not hijacking this one.



i have no problem with the discussion in this thread, makes for a good compilation of info 
though a vivarium and paludarium thread would be great to see as well


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

Since there are no objections to spreading information through this thread I will continue to clarify things here. I'm currently using a canister filter in a 4' x 18"x 18" tank, which is only 1/3 filled with water. I drilled the holes a few inches above the water level to ensure I wouldn't get leakage if the pump failed. I find that the water is slow to filter through (lucky there isn't much water to filter). Where is the best place to drill the holes for the out going and incoming water pipes and should I use a bulk head? What is the advantage of using a bulk head? I'm currently setting up a new paludarium so this information is coming at a vital time.


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

Use a non return valve purchased from your LPS they are a couple of bucks this will stop water flow backwards in the event of a power failure. Will post more details later, a bit under the pump at the moment (no pun intended)


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

James_Scott said:


> Since there are no objections to spreading information through this thread I will continue to clarify things here. I'm currently using a canister filter in a 4' x 18"x 18" tank, which is only 1/3 filled with water. I drilled the holes a few inches above the water level to ensure I wouldn't get leakage if the pump failed. I find that the water is slow to filter through (lucky there isn't much water to filter). Where is the best place to drill the holes for the out going and incoming water pipes and should I use a bulk head? What is the advantage of using a bulk head? I'm currently setting up a new paludarium so this information is coming at a vital time.


Bulkheads can be used when running a mini reef filtration system. Excellent system great long term but pricey initial setup. 

Regarding the placement of holes, the crucial factor here is the outlet and inlet placement rather than placement of said holes. Inlet should be nearer the bottom of the vivarium outlet nearer the top of the water line, setup to suit personal preference. A cost effective way around it all would be a canister filter running between 600 to 2400 litres per hour (I always prefer over kill so 2400 but most canister filters come with flow control so you can adjust to suit. The most important thing with the canister filter is that it has 3 to 4 media baskets so you get more room for filter wool to clean and things like bio balls to build the benificial bacteria. I usually run two baskets bio balls and 2 baskets filter wool of different grades. Cannister filters on ebay can be as cheap as $50 running up into the $1000 mark which will have built in UV, heater, thermostat and able to analyse all your water parameters. 

Now with this basic set up allow to run for 4 weeks with NO WATER CHANGES (spot cleaning out poo is ok). The bacteria needs this time to establish, flushing large amounts of fresh water will kill of the good bacteria. After this initial period you can change out water at 1/3 capacity every 4 weeks or so. To test water buy a basic ph test kit $20 roughly which checks for ammonia nitrate/nitrite being the most important. I could waffle on for hours so I will stop now. One last thing, the bio balls as mentioned before get rinsed off in the established water once every 3 months to remove gunk but don't rinse in fresh water. Hope this helps a little.


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## andynic07 (Jul 5, 2013)

BeZaKa said:


> Now with this basic set up allow to run for 4 weeks with NO WATER CHANGES (spot cleaning out poo is ok). The bacteria needs this time to establish, flushing large amounts of fresh water will kill of the good bacteria. After this initial period you can change out water at 1/3 capacity every 4 weeks or so. To test water buy a basic ph test kit $20 roughly which checks for ammonia nitrate/nitrite being the most important. I could waffle on for hours so I will stop now. One last thing, the bio balls as mentioned before get rinsed off in the established water once every 3 months to remove gunk but don't rinse in fresh water. Hope this helps a little.


When you say fresh water do you mean tap water with chlorine or would tank water do the same?


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## James_Scott (Jul 5, 2013)

Great piece of information there. Thanks for sharing.


BeZaKa said:


> Bulkheads can be used when running a mini reef filtration system. Excellent system great long term but pricey initial setup.
> 
> Regarding the placement of holes, the crucial factor here is the outlet and inlet placement rather than placement of said holes. Inlet should be nearer the bottom of the vivarium outlet nearer the top of the water line, setup to suit personal preference. A cost effective way around it all would be a canister filter running between 600 to 2400 litres per hour (I always prefer over kill so 2400 but most canister filters come with flow control so you can adjust to suit. The most important thing with the canister filter is that it has 3 to 4 media baskets so you get more room for filter wool to clean and things like bio balls to build the benificial bacteria. I usually run two baskets bio balls and 2 baskets filter wool of different grades. Cannister filters on ebay can be as cheap as $50 running up into the $1000 mark which will have built in UV, heater, thermostat and able to analyse all your water parameters.
> 
> Now with this basic set up allow to run for 4 weeks with NO WATER CHANGES (spot cleaning out poo is ok). The bacteria needs this time to establish, flushing large amounts of fresh water will kill of the good bacteria. After this initial period you can change out water at 1/3 capacity every 4 weeks or so. To test water buy a basic ph test kit $20 roughly which checks for ammonia nitrate/nitrite being the most important. I could waffle on for hours so I will stop now. One last thing, the bio balls as mentioned before get rinsed off in the established water once every 3 months to remove gunk but don't rinse in fresh water. Hope this helps a little.


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> When you say fresh water do you mean tap water with chlorine or would tank water do the same?



Sorry Andy. When rinsing the media (bio balls) take about a half bucket of water from the vivarium/aquarium and rinse the bio balls of in this. Dont use water from any other source as the bacteria are use to the temp and water quality from the vivarium. Drastic changes...tap water. Will kill them.


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## andynic07 (Jul 5, 2013)

BeZaKa said:


> Sorry Andy. When rinsing the media (bio balls) take about a half bucket of water from the vivarium/aquarium and rinse the bio balls of in this. Dont use water from any other source as the bacteria are use to the temp and water quality from the vivarium. Drastic changes...tap water. Will kill them.


I have always done that with my small tank setups because that was what I was told to do but was just curious about other sources like watertank water as it had no chemicals but your explanation has explained the reasoning well. I was not aware that the bacteria would be that sensitive.
Cheers 
Andy


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

A variation in temps and or chemicals in the water can knock off the bacteria. There are chemicals out there that speed up the whole beneficial bacteria process but i rather hang on to my money and I know this way works


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## andynic07 (Jul 5, 2013)

I used to use stress zyme on my ciclid tanks.


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I used to use stress zyme on my ciclid tanks.


The Seachem Prime is the one i used when doing water changes and adding freshwater (this though has nothing to do with the bacteria side of things) The Prime detoxifies nitrate and nitrites, removes ammonia, chlorine and chloramines and apparently provides a slime coat for the fish. I primarily had/have the africans/malawi and Tanganyikans, some americans.


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## andynic07 (Jul 5, 2013)

I used API stress coat which treated the water and gave the fish the coating and API stress zyme to add beneficial bacteria. Early on I tried Americans with Africans which did not work so pretty much went to just Africans.


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## zookieboi (Jul 5, 2013)

I'd address the water/bacterial problem by plumbing an external sump tank + filter system under it, say a 50 liter tank with a few snails in it.


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## BeZaKa (Jul 5, 2013)

I wont hog this thread with fish talk but this pertains to the bacteria side of things. I found that if you "age" the water eg let tap/tank water sit in a container for 3 to 4 days most of the chlorine etc evaporates off. With an aged tank (read has been running for 6 plus weeks) the ammonia, chlorines etc are really not an issue as the beneficial bacteria take care of most everything. This is why i over filter everything (2 canister filters per tank) so if i clean one filter i know the other filters bacteria can handle it.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 10, 2013)

herp.derp said:


> the roof is covered by wire mesh, and the wooden top piece does not have a top to it, allowing air to flow freely
> the plants are from an area where they would remain wet for their entire lives, so the moisture wont be a problem
> i should state, i am no expert on aquascaping, so i may not have all the answers to your questions and issues, but i can assure you that the guy who made the enclosure is an expert in the field, having done so for about 10 years, i fully trust his knowledge and judgement
> he has similar setups in his shop in carnegie which are also misted regularly and wet all day. they are thriving and have been for years now
> ...



I remain to be convinced that the plants you have in there will remain healthy if they are wet all the time, but that's a separate issue to the matter of a suitable environment for your GTP. A constantly wet enclosure, indeed one that is not dry MOST of the time, is a very unhealthy environment for a GTP.

Jamie


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## Cold_blood (Jul 12, 2013)

What can I say, I'm jealous


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## mcloughlin2 (Jul 13, 2013)

BeZaKa said:


> I wont hog this thread with fish talk but this pertains to the bacteria side of things. I found that if you "age" the water eg let tap/tank water sit in a container for 3 to 4 days most of the chlorine etc evaporates off. With an aged tank (read has been running for 6 plus weeks) the ammonia, chlorines etc are really not an issue as the beneficial bacteria take care of most everything. This is why i over filter everything (2 canister filters per tank) so if i clean one filter i know the other filters bacteria can handle it.



Chlorine will evaporate, chloramine will not which is lethal to fish and bacteria. Bacteria are also not capable of handling chlorine, infact it kills them. The bacteria will handle ammonia generated by the waste and I believe a suitably sized canister will handle weekly/fortnightly 40g waste deposits. I'm not experienced with whether it's suitable for a GTP or not but I don't believe the water will stagnate and I know a canister is far superior at removing nitrogenous waste then most slow growing species of plants - you would need lots of plants and fast growing species to handle the same amount of waste a canister will.


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## herp.derp (Jul 13, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I remain to be convinced that the plants you have in there will remain healthy if they are wet all the time, but that's a separate issue to the matter of a suitable environment for your GTP. A constantly wet enclosure, indeed one that is not dry MOST of the time, is a very unhealthy environment for a GTP.
> 
> Jamie



the upper half of the enclosure is currently maintaining a humidity around 60% and does not get directly wet. the misters have been aimed down to ensure this


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 16, 2013)

A constant 60% is still pretty high, but... oh well....

Jamie


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## Woma_Wild (Jul 16, 2013)

No doubt about it, it's a great looking enclosure however, I would not use it to house a python. 
I'm new to snakes but I bred discus for many years. IMO, a fully planted tank with fish is high maintenance and not as easy as people think. It's best left to the experts .lol.
Not too bad if the plants die but replacing livestock, that's an expense mistake.

There's something to be said for "fake decor" - easily bleached.

Your water quality will be a concern and you can't train your snake not to drink the tank water - not only poo but leaching off from plant matter and soil.


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## champagne (Jul 16, 2013)

Gtp do not need high humidity. They are able to tolerate it but it is not needed. I keep all my gtp's at the same temps and humidity as my other carpets, with no problems. It is best to just spray in the morning and let it evaporate over the day. The enclosure should be dry by night.


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## OldestMagician (Jul 16, 2013)

Any chance of replacing the water with clear resin? Would look almost identical without any of this hassle. 

Maybe pour it, place a bowl or something covered in cling film into the resin, pull out when set and use that as your water dish?


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## caliherp (Jul 16, 2013)

Wow it's this is a incredible vivarium. I have to agree with pythoninfinite on this one. This enclosure is not suitable in the long run for a GTP. It will work seemingly well for a wile, but sooner or later it's health will deteriorate. If I were you I would get a different more suitable enclosure for the GTP. I'd put some more branches with epiphytes on them and add a group of small prolific arboreal gecko species in there. That's just my 0.2. 

Regards, Patrick


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## Rogue5861 (Jul 16, 2013)

Would be great for a mix species frog tank. Mags, greens and white lip's would look great in there.


Rick


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## herp.derp (Jul 17, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> A constant 60% is still pretty high, but... oh well....
> 
> Jamie



some parts of northern queensland where gtps live never drop below 60% humidity



Woma_Wild said:


> No doubt about it, it's a great looking enclosure however, I would not use it to house a python.
> I'm new to snakes but I bred discus for many years. IMO, a fully planted tank with fish is high maintenance and not as easy as people think. It's best left to the experts .lol.
> Not too bad if the plants die but replacing livestock, that's an expense mistake.
> 
> ...



the water is currently perfectly clean and is tested weekly to ensure it stays that way
at one point the PH was too high, so indian almond leaves were added to naturally lower it. 
fish have now been added, along with a sea snail. plants have been added to the water as well. this will also naturally keep the water levels stable. the placement of the branches make it very unlikely that the snake will poop in the water, and even if it does, it can be spot cleaned once seen, but the filter will handle it even if not seen 

again i must make the point, this whole thing wasnt just thrown together with no thought, the creator has been doing this for many years now. he is an absolute expert at what he does and i am extremely confident in the future of this enclosure


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 17, 2013)

herp.derp said:


> some parts of northern queensland where gtps live never drop below 60% humidity
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, you've obviously spent a lot on it, and put a lot of thought into it, so I expect you'll have to make it work somehow. I think my biggest concern is still your understanding of GTP husbandry and their captive needs. But you can say, quite correctly, that it's none of my business...

Jamie


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## humba_jumba (Jul 17, 2013)

The op should just listen to these guys, especially pythoninfinite and waterrat... They clearly know what they are talking about... Your enclosure at some point in time is going to be a bacteria factory and is probably going to have some affect on your python... You should drop the pride and just listen, these guys aren't often wrong and they know what they are talking about...


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## Bryce (Jul 17, 2013)

Great looking enclosure you have there. I agree with a bit of what has been said here but The point I will make is, its lacking in my point of view is the space in which the animal can rest on the floor. My GTPS love having a good lay on the floor from time to time. It doesn't appear to have that in your enclosure. 

All the best with the enclosure.


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## champagne (Jul 17, 2013)

herp.derp said:


> some parts of northern queensland where gtps live never drop below 60% humidity



a lot of people don't understand correct husbandry of captive reptiles... the main thing people don't understand is there is a wide range of conditions available to a reptile in the wild and they can move to suit them. It gets up to 40c in Darwin so keep a Darwin carpet python at 40c and see how long it is alive for. There are rattle snakes in America that live in areas where they get 6ft of snow each year, does this mean the snake needs 6ft of snow put in its enclosure to survive? its a great enclosure but you are asking for trouble putting a GTP in there.


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## Amelia (Jul 17, 2013)

I agree, this enclosure isn't suitable for a Green tree python, the first thing that comes to mind is respiratory issues. I take no delight in telling you this after you've obviously poured a lot of thought into this project but rather than see a beautiful (expensive) animal suffer the consequences you should reassess this enclosure, ditch the water at the very least.

Even if your GTP appears to be surviving, wouldn't you rather offer him/her optimum conditions?


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## herp.derp (Jul 29, 2013)

ok, so after doing some further research and taking all of your concerns and suggestions into consideration, i have made some revisions and decided to make this post to clear some things up for everyone

*the water will become a bacterial cesspool 
*the water is being filtered by a canister filter, aquatic plants have also been added which help keep the water clean, the water is changed once every 2 weeks, and water tests are done regularly 
the water is being kept exceptionally clean

*but what if the snake poops in the water?
*last week he did. it was cleaned up once noticed, the water was tested and it is fine
though to prevent this from happening in the future, and thus making maintenance easier, the one branch which does sit over the water is going to be repositioned 

*but what if he poops on the land??
*this can also be spot cleaned once its seen, though the organic matter will actually act as fertiliser and enhance plant growth
*
the humidity is too high! it will cause respiratory issues
*concerns stemmed both from the water in the tank, and the misters
i took these comments into consideration and also bought and read The More Complete Chondro by Greg Maxwell
the misters have been set to spray only once per day, as is recommended by the complete chondro, the rest of the day is spent drying out. the top of the cage is open, thus allowing sufficient ventilation
the humidity drops as low 45% by the end of the day
*
the plants will turn to mush! 
*many of the plants are aquatic plants and from marsh areas. they can be fully submerged in water and still thrive
like i said, adrian at exotic aquatic has done this for many many years and actually owns a store which displays similar set-ups, i assure you the plants are doing well. dont believe me, check his facebook
*
what if the snake falls into the water and cannot get out?
*the rocks have been positioned in a way that should allow for easy access between the water and land
i actually witnessed the snake going in and out of the water last week with no issue

recently more plants have been added to the water, cat fish have been added, and a sea snail
also the snake has shed and is looking more vibrant than ever


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## LB_Reptiles (Jul 29, 2013)

filter the water and put a turtle in it?


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## andynic07 (Jul 29, 2013)

herp.derp said:


> ok, so after doing some further research and taking all of your concerns and suggestions into consideration, i have made some revisions and decided to make this post to clear some things up for everyone
> 
> *the water will become a bacterial cesspool
> *the water is being filtered by a canister filter, aquatic plants have also been added which help keep the water clean, the water is changed once every 2 weeks, and water tests are done regularly
> ...


It is good that you are taking all the concerns into consideration and not just blowing them off, hopefully this set up continues to work for you.


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## herp.derp (Jul 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> It is good that you are taking all the concerns into consideration and not just blowing them off, hopefully this set up continues to work for you.



while the cage is obviously meant for ornamental purposes, the wellbeing of the snake is my number 1 priority, and the set-up reflects this
i just want to show people that such a thing can be done


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## herp.derp (Jul 29, 2013)

i noticed a couple of concerns as to space for him to lay on the ground. it may not have been illustrated well in the original pictures, but here you can see that there is more than sufficient ground space which the snake was happy to take advantage of
going through a shed in this picture as you can see


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## Jack92 (Jul 29, 2013)

That looks awesome man, nice work


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## Amelia (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't see how a heated glass enclosure with a large body of water, & a filter could ever completely dry out. That would be my main concern.


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## herp.derp (Jul 29, 2013)

im not sure how much drier than 45% humidity you expect the cage to get
here are the humidity patterns for Iron Range, where you can find GTPs in the wild, as stated by Pythoninfinate
Weather of Iron Range in Queensland - Bonzle Digital Atlas of Australia

you'll be hard pressed to find the humidity getting below 45%


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## Luvbuz (Jul 30, 2013)

herp.derp - I've been following this thread since it started. Firstly I don't think ANYONE on here has the right to question your commitment to the well being of your beautiful GTP. You are obviously researching and adjusting the habitat and closely monitoring the enclosure conditions, well done champ, I'm impressed. Secondly, you have had the idea, thought about it, planned it, developed it and put it into practice, well done mate, many of us dream it but never do it! Thirdly, your commitment to taking on board suggestions regardless of how ill-informed some of the comments are, and thinking them through, using what advice you can and discarding the rubbish ones is to be commended. Again, well done mate, you have a wonderful specimen housed in a beautiful piece of furniture, in a living piece of art. Just sit back and enjoy it champ, it's well deserved! I wish most of the reptiles I see in my travels were as well housed and taken care of as yours!!!


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## Woma_Wild (Jul 30, 2013)

*Firstly I don't think ANYONE on here has the right to question your commitment to the well being of your beautiful GTP. 

*that's silly thing to say. 

No one has questioned the Op's commitment. comments have been made about the unsuitable type of enclosure for a python.

In simple english - an aquarium filter is designed to handle fish fecal matter and not dead rodent (fur, bones, etc.) in other words, the filter is a waste of time.
To ensure clean water, you would have to do a complete 100% water change daily.

I feed my discus a mix of pellets and a beef heart mix. I had no substrate, no plants and did daily 50% water changes.( which required me to have water in 44 gallon drums heated and filtered ready to go for the next day.)

Too many people attempt to have tanks and enclosures that suit their home decor and look aesthetically pleasing to the eye but unfortunately, what _we want_ is not always what *the animal needs.*


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## DaReptileBoy (Jul 30, 2013)

that cage swagalicously sexy


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## herp.derp (Jul 30, 2013)

the filter is most certainly not a waste of time. the aquarium section houses numerous fish and snails. it serves the purpose of keeping the water clean. you are correct in saying that the filter is not meant to handle snake poop, and it is not expected to

you must have missed my above post which explained everything, il post part of it here for you
*the water will become a bacterial cesspool 
the water is being filtered by a canister filter, aquatic plants have also been added which help keep the water clean, the water is changed once every 2 weeks, and water tests are done regularly 
the water is being kept exceptionally clean

but what if the snake poops in the water?
last week he did. it was cleaned up once noticed, the water was tested and it is fine
though to prevent this from happening in the future, and thus making maintenance easier, the one branch which does sit over the water is going to be repositioned 

but what if he poops on the land??
this can also be spot cleaned once its seen, though the organic matter will actually act as fertiliser and enhance plant growth
*
to sum up the above, the snake soon wont be able to poop in the water again. though its not a great issue. he has in the past and it did not cause any problems


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## andynic07 (Jul 30, 2013)

Don't mean to seem to harp on the poop issue but isn't poop know to house salmonella and if it does how will you stop it from reproducing the bacteria. I know in conventional setups that the entire enclosure can be cleaned out using f10 on a monthly basis but this would not work in your setup. I am not sure if this would be a problem or not because I don't think your snake would be affected by it and I am not sure how salmonella reproduces.


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## mcloughlin2 (Jul 30, 2013)

Woma_Wild said:


> In simple english - an aquarium filter is designed to handle fish fecal matter and not dead rodent (fur, bones, etc.) in other words, the filter is a waste of time.
> To ensure clean water, you would have to do a complete 100% water change daily.
> 
> I feed my discus a mix of pellets and a beef heart mix. I had no substrate, no plants and did daily 50% water changes.( which required me to have water in 44 gallon drums heated and filtered ready to go for the next day.)



This information is incorrect. A canister filter is designed to offer a suitable environment in which aerobic and anaerobic bacteria (in some cases) can live. This is done by ensuring it provides ample room for media with a large surface area to volume ratio. This bacteria is not biased towards one waste form or another and is perfectly happy to accept the nitrogenous waste produced by a snake as it is from a fish. It is also not going to be handling a full mouse or rat body. It will be dealing with the fully digested remains which theoretically shouldn't contain any decaying, smelly matter. 

You are required to perform water changes of that frequency on the discus tank because they are in my opinion the most difficult freshwater fish species to keep available commonly in captivity. The slightest buildup of nitrate (which would be harmless to a snake) will stunt their growth and cause all sorts of headaches. However the water quality can drop with other fish species and have no ill effects. So as long as the fish are thriving then there will be zero issues from a *bacterial cesspool* perspective with the snake.


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## herp.derp (Jul 30, 2013)

yes, snakes, along with almost all animals, do carry salmonella. the snakes poop can be spot cleaned once its seen, and i believe the plant matter will break down the rest

the risk of transmission to humans is only through ingestion. so by wearing gloves to clean the cage, and washing your hands before and after handling the snake, the chances of catching anything are very low


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 30, 2013)

I don't want to extend this discussion in any negative manner, but I wonder what you test for when testing water "quality"? Is it just the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels as the tank matures, or do you test for pathogenic bacteria such as the Salmonellas and E. coli etc? I ask just out of curiosity.

J


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## BeZaKa (Jul 30, 2013)

A well setup canister filter with a good biological filtration component has the ability to deal with the waste that your snake is producing. Having kept and knowing people whom keep large carnivorous predator fish with a diet which includes mammals (personally I have fed things like beef heart and liver)has the ability to keep your water crystal clean.The only consideration is the heavier a load you put on the system the more partial water changes and larger a canister filter you will need, this you will work out yourself with a simple water test kit. Edit: Hadnt read pythoninfites post re salmonella and ecoli when I had posted, personally never checked this myself.


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## Woma_Wild (Aug 1, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> This information is incorrect. A canister filter is designed to offer a suitable environment in which aerobic and anaerobic bacteria (in some cases) can live. This is done by ensuring it provides ample room for media with a large surface area to volume ratio. This bacteria is not biased towards one waste form or another and is perfectly happy to accept the nitrogenous waste produced by a snake as it is from a fish. It is also not going to be handling a full mouse or rat body. It will be dealing with the fully digested remains which theoretically shouldn't contain any decaying, smelly matter.
> 
> You are required to perform water changes of that frequency on the discus tank because they are in my opinion the most difficult freshwater fish species to keep available commonly in captivity. The slightest buildup of nitrate (which would be harmless to a snake) will stunt their growth and cause all sorts of headaches. However the water quality can drop with other fish species and have no ill effects. So as long as the fish are thriving then there will be zero issues from a *bacterial cesspool* perspective with the snake.



Discus was an example. Any fish feeding on raw meat, try doing a norm 20% water change and see how well the filter works. 
So let's agree to disagree on this one.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 1, 2013)

Unlike most fish, snakes are also susceptible to water-born protozoan parasites such as amoeba, which can cause bloody diarrhoea & death very quickly. They are very prevalent in closed bodies of water with a high organic load. Presumeably these would not be tested for either.

Jamie


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## BeZaKa (Aug 1, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Unlike most fish, snakes are also susceptible to water-born protozoan parasites such as amoeba, which can cause bloody diarrhoea & death very quickly. They are very prevalent in closed bodies of water with a high organic load. Presumeably these would not be tested for either.
> 
> Jamie



Hence my comment re the load the system is put under will need to be compensated for. It would be interesting for the OP to find out/know if there is a water test for water-born protozoan parasites such as amoeba as Jamie suggested. Interesting point.


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## andynic07 (Oct 22, 2013)

herp.derp said:


> yes, snakes, along with almost all animals, do carry salmonella. the snakes poop can be spot cleaned once its seen, and i believe the plant matter will break down the rest
> 
> the risk of transmission to humans is only through ingestion. so by wearing gloves to clean the cage, and washing your hands before and after handling the snake, the chances of catching anything are very low


Hi mate, I was just wondering if there was an update as to how you enclosure is going? Has it been successful and have you had to make any adjustments?

Cheers
Andy


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