# Leucistic Blue-tongue Skinks



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

Are there any true leucistic blue-tongue skinks out there?

Feel free to post pics, or if you'd prefer send me a pm, I am interested in learning more about these animals.

Thanks,
JungleRob


----------



## Australis (Mar 19, 2008)

Im not sure on legit leucistics, but there are some extremely
white northerns getting around for what its worth... lol


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

Any pics of these 'whites' Australis?


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 19, 2008)

yes there is true luecistic blue tongues i have seen them. they will not be on the market for a bit. as far as the photos go it is up to the guy breeding them to post and please dont ask me who bred them as i am not at liberty to tell you but i can garontee they exist. and i gotta say they smoke the albinos on good looks.


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

What makes a 'TRUE' leucistic Dabool?

I respect your keeping it quiet who is breeding them. Thanks, very interesting.


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 19, 2008)

the way the genitics work there are lines of lighter colored blue tongues getting around but these ones are reccessive the similar to the way an albino gene is.


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

Dabool said:


> the way the genitics work there are lines of lighter colored blue tongues getting around but these ones are reccessive the similar to the way an albino gene is.



are you saying the lighter color blueys are hets for leucistic? I'm not sure how the gene varies between species but from what i know leucistic hets are not lighter colored animals


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

How does one tell if it has 'no pigmentation' as opposed to just being lightly coloured?


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 19, 2008)

hornet i dont know how you worked that out from what i said i have an idea type "luecistic" into google and learn all about it.


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

from your post it seemed you were saying the lighter colored blueys are leucistic hets?


----------



## Miss B (Mar 19, 2008)

I understood what he was saying. He was saying that yes, there are some light blueys getting around but these ones (as in Leucistic blueys) carry a recessive gene similar to Albino blueys.


----------



## Tristis (Mar 19, 2008)

leucistic are just white no markings, with black or blue eyes


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

ahh ok yea. The gene for albinism is recessive but the gene for Leucism isnt, i cant remember the exact name but possibly co-dominant. When you have an albino het it looks normal, leucistic hets look totally different to leucistics or normals


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

Tristis said:


> leucistic are just white no markings, with black or blue eyes


 
Wouldn't that be a 'white' blue-tongue as it has white pigment. Leucistic as I understand it is no pigment whatsoever.

Is this correct?


----------



## Ozzie Python (Mar 19, 2008)

I just did a google search, apparently there are many claims from people that they have leucistic blue tongue skinks, but on inspection were not classed as leucistic. Interesting, makes one wonder if there are actually any true leucistic out there.


----------



## Miss B (Mar 19, 2008)

Ah ok.

I don't know much about the genes.

They do have Leucistic beardies in the States, can't say I've ever seen a Leucistic bluey. I imagine they would look pretty cool though. Would they be all white (well, not white, but I mean no pigment whatsoever), or would they have some of the same patterning the Albino blueys have?


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/exotics-other-reptiles/blue-tongue-portraits-77071[/font]

What would bluetongue 1 in this thread be? It's certainly not Albino as stated.


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/exotics-other-reptiles/blue-tongue-portraits-77071


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

Miss B said:


> Ah ok.
> 
> I don't know much about the genes.
> 
> They do have Leucistic beardies in the States, can't say I've ever seen a Leucistic bluey. I imagine they would look pretty cool though. Would they be all white (well, not white, but I mean no pigment whatsoever), or would they have some of the same patterning the Albino blueys have?



leucistic animals are pure white, void of all patterning


----------



## Miss B (Mar 19, 2008)

That would look awesome.


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 19, 2008)

hornet said:


> leucistic animals are pure white, void of all patterning


no luecism has varying degrees some may have slight patterning and others may have nothing it depends. but the main factor is how the animal was bred if you selectivly bred lighter and lighter animals you would probably end up with an established line of luecistic animals eventually.
the ones i have seen were a freak occurence from normal looking parents . some of the animals were pure white with a blue tongue and an almost blue eye. and some were as mentioned but with very faint orange banding.


----------



## Tristis (Mar 19, 2008)

Dabool said:


> no luecism has varying degrees some may have slight patterning and others may have nothing it depends. but the main factor is how the animal was bred if you selectivly bred lighter and lighter animals you would probably end up with an established line of luecistic animals eventually.
> the ones i have seen were a freak occurence from normal looking parents . some of the animals were pure white with a blue tongue and an almost blue eye. and some were as mentioned but with very faint orange banding.



all the lucys ive seen are pure white. line bred for high white is not a lucy


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 19, 2008)

Tristis said:


> all the lucys ive seen are pure white. line bred for high white is not a lucy


wrong the key to what i said was "eventually you could end up with luecistic animals" this may come about through the proccess of inbreeding that occurs when line breeding.


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

Dabool said:


> wrong the key to what i said was "eventually you could end up with luecistic animals" this may come about through the proccess of inbreeding that occurs when line breeding.



yes but you have the same chance of producing a leucie from 2 normal parents as you do from 2 line bred high white parents


----------



## Tristis (Mar 19, 2008)

google has more pics of lucys than anything else, not one has markings. 
snow corns and not lucys but they are white and have faint markings.


----------



## solar 17 (Mar 19, 2008)

*white bluey's*

l can back DABOOL up they exist alright and he's in the right area to have seen them....white with dark eyes....cheers solar 17


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

do you know if they just popped up in czptivity from normal parents or if the origanal leucies were WC like blondie?


----------



## NCHERPS (Mar 19, 2008)

JungleRob said:


> [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/exotics-other-reptiles/blue-tongue-portraits-77071[/font]
> 
> What would bluetongue 1 in this thread be? It's certainly not Albino as stated.



Hi Junglerob,

To me it looks to be a T+ albino.

Neil


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

NCHERPS said:


> Hi Junglerob,
> 
> To me it looks to be a T+ albino.
> 
> Neil


 
Thanks Neil.


----------



## Just_Joshin (Mar 19, 2008)

Leuccies also have an alsmost transparent appearance to them.....they aren't just WHITE.....as stated, they are devoid of ALL pigment making them a pearlescent/transparent colour. I've seen some that almost have a sligth pinkish ting to them from the blood and vessels underneath.


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 19, 2008)

womanator said:


> Leuccies also have an alsmost transparent appearance to them.....they aren't just WHITE.....as stated, they are devoid of ALL pigment making them a pearlescent/transparent colour. I've seen some that almost have a sligth pinkish ting to them from the blood and vessels underneath.


 
Now that's what I'm looking for! Thanks Womanator.

Making more sense to me now.

So, are there TRUE leucys out there?


----------



## Hickson (Mar 19, 2008)

JungleRob said:


> What would bluetongue 1 in this thread be? It's certainly not Albino as stated.



Amelanistic.



Hix


----------



## NCHERPS (Mar 19, 2008)

Hix said:


> Amelanistic.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix



Hey Hixy,

Not an Amelanistic mate, it has dark eyes!

Neil


----------



## Hickson (Mar 19, 2008)

Thats the pupil Neil - it's always black because it is the view into the actual eyball.

Pure albinos with pink eyes and no colouration at all also have black pupils (although often very contracted because without colour in the iris the bright light tends to hurt their eyes).



Hix


----------



## Hickson (Mar 19, 2008)

No, I'm wrong there, silly me.

Pure albinos with no pigment at all have red pupils because there is no pigment in the iris to cause the shadow.

However, the bluetongue in the photo is lacking melanin but still has pigment in the iris (red/brown - I presume erythrosine or something similar) which is causing the dark pupil.



Hix


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 19, 2008)

not all luecistic animals are completely devoid of all pigment and all of the albino blueys i have seen have no black in their pupil s at all.


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

Dabool said:


> not all luecistic animals are completely devoid of all pigment and all of the albino blueys i have seen have no black in their pupil s at all.



i guess, piebald is a type of leucistic but generally they are lacking all pigment.


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 19, 2008)

pie bald can be created from leucistic or albino parents. piebald is also what is known as a paradox albino which is a mixture of two different genetic codes when a het animal has off spring that were suposed to be twins and in the early stages of development the cells did not split properly.


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

Dabool said:


> pie bald can be created from leucistic or albino parents. piebald is also what is known as a paradox albino which is a mixture of two different genetic codes when a het animal has off spring that were suposed to be twins and in the early stages of development the cells did not split properly.



no, they are 2 different mutations. if its a paradox then the young will be either normal or albino(or one of what ever comination the paradox is). Piebald is a different mutation, its a form of leucism and is inheritable.


----------



## Hickson (Mar 19, 2008)

Dabool said:


> piebald is also what is known as a paradox albino which is a mixture of two different genetic codes when a het animal has off spring that were suposed to be twins and in the early stages of development the cells did not split properly.



Huh?

If the cells didn't split properly and separate, you get siamese twins, or conjoined twins. They don't resorb into each other and become one animal.



Hix


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

Hix said:


> Huh?
> 
> If the cells didn't split properly and separate, you get siamese twins, or conjoined twins. They don't resorb into each other and become one animal.
> 
> ...



Another name for this is a "chimera". Where 2 separate embyo's get pushed into eachother early in development and the resulting offspring has 2 lots of genetic material in certain parts of its body. Thats how paradox albino's form, Piebald is different to paradox albinism


----------



## bump73 (Mar 19, 2008)

The question still remains unanswered...Are there true leuceys anywhere????

(and the "i know someone who has them" doesn't wash unless there's phographic evidence to prove it. Hell, if i had them i wouldn't be scared to show pic's:lol

Ben


----------



## Hickson (Mar 19, 2008)

bump73 said:


> (and the "i know someone who has them" doesn't wash unless there's phographic evidence to prove it. Hell, if i had them i wouldn't be scared to show pic's:lol
> 
> Ben



You obviously haven't had a gun shoved in your face and then been tied up while your reptiles were stolen.



Hornet said:


> Where 2 separate embyo's get pushed into eachother early in development and the resulting offspring has 2 lots of genetic material in certain parts of its body.


That would explain a Lovebird I saw the other day.



Hix


----------



## hornet (Mar 19, 2008)

Hix said:


> You obviously haven't had a gun shoved in your face and then been tied up while your reptiles were stolen.



Cummon hixy, we have all seen on tv how to disarm our foes while tied to a chair, looks easy enough


----------



## bump73 (Mar 19, 2008)

Hix said:


> You obviously haven't had a gun shoved in your face and then been tied up while your reptiles were stolen.
> 
> Hix


 
True...

but i could always let someone i trusted put pics up, especially if i planned on selling them at some stage


----------



## Bapi (Mar 19, 2008)

Here you go. ps They are not mine but I have permission to post.


----------



## Miss B (Mar 19, 2008)

That's a Leucistic? :|

Doesn't look all that flash, no offence to it's owners or anything but yeah... meh...


----------



## MrBredli (Mar 19, 2008)

That skink is certainly not leucistic, what is it supposed to be Bapi?


----------



## Australis (Mar 19, 2008)

Is that a common or a Northern Bapi..?

A few ive seen in person recently are
much the same but with a more lavender 
colour in some of their markings, northerns..
Have to be seen in person to be appreciated,


----------



## hazzard (Mar 19, 2008)

Traits which affect all chromatophores:

Leucism 

Leucistic reptiles are completely lacking in all pigmentation and usually appear completely white. Older individuals often develop dark smudgy coloration, possibly through the same process which adds dark pigmentation to tyrosinase positive albinos. (To learn more about T+ albinos, visit our 'Chromatophores' page' and see the section on melanophores)

Oddly, all known leucistic reptiles possess normally pigmented eyes. These dark eyes provide a startling contrast. It has been proven in the Texas Ratsnake (Elaphe obsoleta lindheimeri) that these dark eyes can be 'removed' by out-crossing the leucistic mutation to an amelanistic.

I really suggest some of you visit this website and do the tutorials! Sorry some of what i am reading in this thread is so far off the mark it's well laughable!
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCMutations.htm


----------



## Bluie (Mar 19, 2008)

Regardless of whether it is leucistic or not I think it is a stunning animal.


----------



## Bapi (Mar 19, 2008)

Yeah ok. I'm not sure if leucistic is the right term. It does not have a complete abscess of chromatophores like the leucistic snakes do. They are not a bright white - more sort of see through (you should see them when they are gravid!!!!) scales. They all have normal eye colouration and their tounges are pale blue but the rest of them is quite pale. Although they do have a wide variety of yellow/red pigments left they don't seem to have a significant amount of melanin left. Some are a clear pale pink all over others like this one have faint patterns - some are pinkish, some lavender, some apricot etc. The brownish tone in this individual is from the lighting. (is the only photo I have). I would probably call them hypomelanistic but this term has been widely used/abused and is often used to refer to selective breeding or normal variations - this is an autosomal recessive mutation. Oh they are Northern Blueys.


----------



## Bapi (Mar 19, 2008)

whoops meant absence not abscess. - must be working too hard.


----------



## richardsc (Mar 20, 2008)

yes thats hypermelanistic,not lucistic,excuse the spelling,late night and sifting through this thread,lol,a nice looking bluey none the less,do they get paler with age?????and are they northerns


----------



## Bapi (Mar 20, 2008)

Er it's hypomelanistic not hypermelanistic - subtle but important difference 
yes they are northerns (locality specific ) 
and they do tend to get paler with age ( a bit like albino carpets)


----------



## chilli (Mar 20, 2008)

*leucistic blueys*



JungleRob said:


> Now that's what I'm looking for! Thanks Womanator.
> 
> Making more sense to me now.
> 
> So, are there TRUE leucys out there?



unfortunate, because that has misled you in the opposite direction. you'll find that most leucistic reptiles, especially those with less patterns in the original form, appear as if 'carved from soap'. the pinkish appearance is often associated with true albinism and will definitely have pink eyes. i understand that there were at least two of their seven animals,of what they collectively called albinos, at featherdale wildlife park, but as i understand it, only one old, poor coloured animal (not leucistic) turned up for work the day after it last changed hands, so i presume there are at least those specimens in private hands now.
the american alligator and nile monitor pics are classic leucs.


----------



## Retic (Mar 20, 2008)

I have heard that there was true leucistic Blue tongues near Darwin, I hope that photo isn't representative of them as it clearly isn't leucistic. 
Leucistics have no coloured pigment whatsoever, no pattern and no colour and black or blue eyes.


----------



## JungleRob (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm feeling doubtful that there are true leucys about, the ones above don't come close to what I had pictured them to be judging from photos of other leucistic reptiles.
Fingers crossed though.
If you're worried about people coming to steal your leucys because your address is really obvious on APS get a moderator to post a pic and state it is on behalf of another member. 
Cheers,
JungleRob


----------



## hornet (Mar 20, 2008)

hopefully there are true lucies around altho as you said, none in this thread are actually leucies, still great looking BTS


----------



## richardsc (Mar 20, 2008)

lol hypo hyper,u know what i mean,nice northerns then,while we are on the subject of color phases in blueys,i have a western bluey that is trying to be a pink tongue,its tongue was blue originally,but its getting pinker and pinker,just the very tip is blue now


----------



## richardsc (Mar 20, 2008)

exhibit a or b for bluey perhaps


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Mar 20, 2008)

Im still waiting for the pics of the leucistic bluetongue ,
so far non have come even close ,

the ones in the pics do look t plus albino genetics to me or hypos ,

but no leucistics 

Roger


----------



## Retic (Mar 20, 2008)

Yes and my concern is that IF these are the ones being bred in Darwin as leucistics the breeders needs to know they aren't.


----------



## richardsc (Mar 20, 2008)

i highly doubt there are any true ones,having looked at what a few try to say are albinos,u have to wonder,lol,doesnt phase me if there are or arent,be interesting to see them,but i like the natural colored ones more,take for example albino easterns,they dont do anything for me,i am quite partial to the all black ones though,and ive seen an albino blotched,and i must say that looked rather awsome as well,keep the pics coming,there are some nice looking colors being shown


----------



## Bapi (Mar 20, 2008)

here is a better shot.


----------



## Australis (Mar 20, 2008)

What would people class the lighter of the two posted here by Bapi then?
As i have a friend with Northerns displaying similar traits with a mixture
of the unusual white ones and normals with Northern litters..

Cheers
Matt


----------



## Retic (Mar 20, 2008)

They could well be hypomelanistic.


----------



## Miss B (Mar 20, 2008)

Well they aren't Blueys but here are some pics of true Leucistic reptiles (courtesy of Google image search lol). They look way better than most Albino animals (imo anyway). 

I've also noticed that a lot of the Yankee beardies being touted as Leucistic are really just pale/snow phase. Maybe a lot of people don't know what a true Leucistic animal looks like? Before this thread started, I didn't really know either.

Do we have any true Leucistic reptiles in Oz?


----------



## NinaPeas (Mar 20, 2008)

Isn't that croc albino? (red eyes)


----------



## Miss B (Mar 20, 2008)

Dunno. Maybe. Google is not exactly the most trustworthy of sources :lol:

There are definately Leucistic alligators out there though.


----------



## richardsc (Mar 20, 2008)

leucistic i was of the impression would lose all trace of patterning,not get paler in regards to growth,hence why the pale bluey cant be classes as leucistic,bapi,its a great looking color phased northern,ill grant u that,but im sticking with hypomelanistic ;p would love to newborn pics of the pales amongst the normal northerns,the dark eye coloring is quite facinating to,i can see why they are assumed to be leucistics


----------



## richardsc (Mar 20, 2008)

im no expert on color mutations though so will be watching this thread with interest,come on people,lets have some expert advice here,what the heck is that northern classed as


----------



## caustichumor (Mar 20, 2008)

There was a leucistic green sea turtle (Minty) at the aquarium here in Townsville, it died a couple of months ago, pity it was a wonderful animal, I saw it the day before it died and it seemed fine.. Steve Irwin had a Leucistic Salty didn't he?


----------



## Retic (Mar 20, 2008)

Like I said it looks hypomelanistic to me but definitely not leucistic.



richardsc said:


> im no expert on color mutations though so will be watching this thread with interest,come on people,lets have some expert advice here,what the heck is that northern classed as


----------



## richardsc (Mar 20, 2008)

same to me to boa


----------



## Jonny (Mar 20, 2008)

Anyone seen an axanthic bluey?????


----------



## MrBredli (Mar 20, 2008)

Jonny said:


> Anyone seen an axanthic bluey?????



Yep, today.


----------



## Bapi (Mar 21, 2008)

Sorry to be flogging a dead horse but they are not just hypomelanistic. Hypomelanistic means just a reduction in melanin and melanin derived pigments. Which they do but they also have a reduction (although not complete) in the yellow/red family of pigments too. So in addition to being hypomelanistic they are also hypoxanthic and hyperythistic. While agreeing they are not the same mutation as the leucistic snakes they are leucisticish since they are an overall reduction in chromatophores except for the eyes. Perhaps the term dilute would suit better? if you have a close look at these two siblings you will see the paler one is paler in all pigments not just melanin


----------



## euan (Mar 21, 2008)

Bapi said:


> Sorry to be flogging a dead horse but they are not just hypomelanistic. Hypomelanistic means just a reduction in melanin and melanin derived pigments. Which they do but they also have a reduction (although not complete) in the yellow/red family of pigments too. So in addition to being hypomelanistic they are also hypoxanthic and hyperythistic. While agreeing they are not the same mutation as the leucistic snakes they are leucisticish since they are an overall reduction in chromatophores except for the eyes. Perhaps the term dilute would suit better? if you have a close look at these two siblings you will see the paler one is paler in all pigments not just melanin



Wow a bit to wade through, unfortunately quite a bit of mis-information as well. The whole thread I am referring to not the quote above.
Hypomelanistic is the same as dilute.
Seeing and holding the animal would solve the query directly, but from the photos the blue tongue is hypomelanistic.
I have held in my hands various leusistic reptiles overseas, (the leusistic nile Monitor that was showed a few pages back was one) plus littlerally thousands of other mutation reptiles. Once you have seen and held a leusistic reptile you truely understand the term leusistic. It is hard for me to explain but basically the scales are a un-natural white. My wife recently brought a couch which is white enough to call leusistic  It is not a bleached out white, rather an intense white.
Albinos are hypomelanistic as well just more extreme than the "average" hypermelanistic animal. Think of hypomelanism as varying degrees of dilute. Sometimes you have just a bit of dilution, for example some of the bredli going around, then you have some more dilution such as the "white" blue tongues floating around Qld then the extreme being albino. On a side note the terms T+ and T- are used frequently but they are terms that to the best of my knowledge have not been proven.
The white of a leusistic reptile is very intense.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Euan


----------



## hornet (Mar 21, 2008)

euan said:


> Wow a bit to wade through, unfortunately quite a bit of mis-information as well. The whole thread I am referring to not the quote above.
> Hypomelanistic is the same as dilute.
> Seeing and holding the animal would solve the query directly, but from the photos the blue tongue is hypomelanistic.
> I have held in my hands various leusistic reptiles overseas, (the leusistic nile Monitor that was showed a few pages back was one) plus littlerally thousands of other mutation reptiles. Once you have seen and held a leusistic reptile you truely understand the term leusistic. It is hard for me to explain but basically the scales are a un-natural white. My wife recently brought a couch which is white enough to call leusistic  It is not a bleached out white, rather an intense white.
> ...



So they are basicly a glowing white?


----------



## euan (Mar 21, 2008)

Not glowing per se but rather a very pure white, almost matt.


----------



## richardsc (Mar 21, 2008)

bapi i still say hypos,but thats fine,there still stunners mate,and look ten times better than albino easterns in my books,thats what erks me with morphs,people make there own names up for different morphs,confuses the be jesus out of me,what percentage of bubs in a litter have the paleness,or do they develop it from birth


----------



## richardsc (Mar 21, 2008)

ive seen pics of hypo northerns but never as pale as bapis ones


----------



## NCHERPS (Mar 21, 2008)

euan said:


> . On a side note the terms T+ and T- are used frequently but they are terms that to the best of my knowledge have not been proven.



:shock:
I think you will find that they have been proven.
Or have I just misunderstood what you were trying to say!

Neil


----------



## BROWNS (Mar 21, 2008)

I have a friend who accidently ran over a true leucistic BTS and it was almost see through,you could even see the venom glands through the skin.It died on the way to the vet and is now in a jar however more have been sighted in the same area.

A leucistic animal has no pigment at all and can be pure white with black or blue eyes such as the macs fond in Townsville area handed in to National Parks and can also be a pikish see through colour like the BTS i just mentioned and i will get a photo of it as son as i can find it.

A leucistic animal shold look like this ball python!!None of the blue togues posted have been true leucistics but stunning animals in their own right!


----------



## Bluie (Mar 21, 2008)

So Browns what would you call the bluies that bapi has photos of hypo or not.


----------



## BROWNS (Mar 21, 2008)

Well it's definitely not a leucistic seeing as there is a slight pattern and if it is hypomelanistic it's the best example you'll get as there is no black whatsoever other than the pupil and hypomelanistic just means lacking in black not no black at all but having no black at all is what i guess i'd call a perfect hypomelanistic animal.Would love to see it in the flesh!!


----------



## Australis (Mar 21, 2008)

Hi Babi,

Have you established what the pattern of inheritance is?
In the ones ive seen from normal northern parents it was
around 50% whiteys and 50% normals....
lending to the idea of simple recessive, but im not too 
crash hot with genetics..


Matt


----------



## euan (Mar 21, 2008)

NCHERPS said:


> :shock:
> I think you will find that they have been proven.
> Or have I just misunderstood what you were trying to say!
> 
> Neil



T+ and T- was a term brought to herpetoculture by Dave Barker, well at least he was the first I heard using the terms.
People use the terms but not always in the possibly correct manner. Plus to my knowledge nobody has proven actually that any of the reptiles termed such, are actually Tyrosine "adjusted" for want of a better phrase.


----------



## Bapi (Mar 21, 2008)

It is autosomal recessive. suffucient numbers have been bred to confirm that - Normal X mutant = hets(normal looking but carry the gene)
Het X het = 25 % mutant, 25% normal & 50% hets
mutant X mutant = 100% mutant
etc etc

The complication with naming mutations is that different mutations can look the same and the same mutation can look different. both between individuals & between species. As an example the white faced cockatiel and the sky blue budgie are the same mutations but look totally different. This is why we are having this discussion.


hypomelanistic is only the same as dilute in mammals where all skin pigments are descended from melanin. In birds and reptiles yellows & reds are not from the same chemical pathways so a hypomelanistic or amelanistic can be quite brightly coloured in these groups so they are not neccessarily diluted. 

In this mutation all groups of pigments are greatly reduced (blacks, yellows & reds) so I guess we should call them hypopigmented so everyone can be happy  

I would still group this mutation in the leucisitc group since it affects all pigment classes not just melanin. All mutations are is "stuff ups" along a biochemical pathway. The "true leucistics" are I suspect are stuff ups higher in the pathway than this one. Similar to T+ and T- albinos which are stuff ups either side of a particular product (tyrosinase) in the melanin pathway. If you want more discussion on this check out the albino allelles in cats. 

Anyway i think the current Wikipaedia article on leucism explains it well and I quote 

"Leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals. Unlike albinism, it is caused by a reduction in all types of skin pigment, not just melanin.
Leucism is a general term for the phenotype resulting from defects in pigment cell differentiation and/or migration from the neural crest to skin, hair or feathers during development. This results in either the entire surface (if all pigment cells fail to develop) or patches of body surface (if only a subset are defective) having a lack of cells capable of making pigment.
Since all pigment cell-types differentiate from the same multipotent precursor cell-type, leucism can cause the reduction in all types of pigment. This is in contrast to albinism, for which leucism is often mistaken. Albinism results in the reduction of melanin production only, though the melanocyte (or melanophore) is still present. Thus in species that have other pigment cell-types, for example xanthophores, albinos are not entirely white, but instead display a pale yellow colour.
More common than a complete absence of pigment cells is localized or incomplete hypopigmentation, resulting in irregular patches of white on an animal that otherwise has normal colouring and patterning. This partial leucism is known as a "pied" or "piebald" effect; and the ratio of white to normal-coloured skin can vary considerably not only between generations, but between different offspring from the same parents, and even between members of the same litter. This is notable in horses, the urban crow[1] and the ball python[2] but is also found in many other species. In contrast, albinism always affects the entire animal.
A further difference between albinism and leucism is in eye colour. Due to the lack of melanin production in both the retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE) and iris, albinos typically have red eyes due to the underlying blood vessels showing through. In contrast, leucistic animals have normally coloured eyes. This is because the melanocytes of the RPE are not derived from the neural crest, instead an outpouching of the neural tube generates the optic cup which, in turn, forms the retina. As these cells are from an independent developmental origin, they are typically unaffected by the genetic cause of leucism.
Genes that, when mutated, can cause leucism include, c-kit [3], mitf [4] and ednrb [5]"


----------



## Pike01 (Mar 21, 2008)

What are these ones,hypo's?


----------



## Saz (Mar 21, 2008)

Here's a vibrant bluey to add to the mix.

Lovely to see some more potential morphs getting about. Yours look like hypos to me Pike. 

Blueys are just awesome critters, whatever the colour.


----------



## NCHERPS (Mar 21, 2008)

euan said:


> T+ and T- was a term brought to herpetoculture by Dave Barker, well at least he was the first I heard using the terms.
> People use the terms but not always in the possibly correct manner. Plus to my knowledge nobody has proven actually that any of the reptiles termed such, are actually Tyrosine "adjusted" for want of a better phrase.



Euan,

The terms T+ and T- used to describe the two conditions effecting the animals and there abilties to synthesis Tyrosinase have been around for a long time and are considered valid for most fauna, reptiles included.
I have never heard anyone in herpetoculture dispute the existence of these animals and the conditions they are afflicted with.

I agree with you on one thing though, many people make judgements and use terms to describe animals without seeing them in the flesh, but when you come onto a reptile forum and someone asks for your opinion, you will give it with the best available information to hand.

Neil


----------



## Retic (Mar 22, 2008)

Pike, yes I would say they are the same as the ones Bapi posted, hypo.


----------



## Bluie (Mar 22, 2008)

Pike1 are they northerns


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 22, 2008)

i still say the ones bapti posted are luecistic.
hypo melanistic does not desrcibe them fully and there are varying degrees of luecism just because they are not "glowing white" or "see through" does not prove they are not luecistic.
there is a few accounts of luecistic humans and one of them had red hair,still luecistic tho.
i have seen a luecistic galah which still had about 20% normal feathers .
So having some slight patterning does not discount the fact that they are luecistic.


----------



## euan (Mar 22, 2008)

NCHERPS said:


> Euan,
> 
> The terms T+ and T- used to describe the two conditions effecting the animals and there abilties to synthesis Tyrosinase have been around for a long time and are considered valid for most fauna, reptiles included.
> I have never heard anyone in herpetoculture dispute the existence of these animals and the conditions they are afflicted with.
> ...



I well understand the terminology, the term was first used in herpetoculture by Dave Barker, when Bob Clark hatched out a few different phenotypes from his albino retics. It was approx 1995 at the Orlando Reptile Expo when I first heard it. If my vague memory is holding up that was the year Bob bred them. At the 1991 Expo he exhibited the original male albino retic, which was not volontarily feeding at the time. Since then it has been used with greater frequency.
If you have never heard T- or T+ terminology being disputed then you have not been in a big enough circle of herpetoculture 
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a scientific paper showing ANY of the lines labelled as T- or T+ in reptiles is actuality or not. It has all been supposition due to appearances i.e the phenotype. Can you provide me with a paper where lab work has been do to show either is true ??? I would be very interested in a copy.

From "common usage" of the term leusistic in regards to reptiles the blue tongues pictured do not conform. I am aware in different spp different mutations can manifest themselves in different visual ways. So far the leusistic reptiles I have seen and held were Texas Ratsnake, Ball Python ( as well as partial), Alligator, Nile Monitor, Monocled Cobra, a few more which I can not think of at the moment, one of the Pituophis. Anyway I digess, what I am saying is so far ALL of the leusistic reptiles that I know of exhibited a complete lack of pigment in the skin ( except the Pied Balls, which was normal patterned patches combined with leusistic patterns ) which these Blue Tongues do not. So from "common usage" of the term they do not conform.
There is a bird guy here who turned a number of mutation names upside down when he started looking at actual mutation compared to common usage names. Would be interesting to find out from him his thoughts.
I would be interested to see a photo of a leusistic Galah, PM me one if possible.
Time for dinner Bye.


----------



## Reptile City (Mar 22, 2008)

WoW Saz!
Thats a very nice Bluey.:shock:
So are some of the hypo posted too!
Heres one I had but sold it a year ago.:cry:

Jason


----------



## scorps (Mar 22, 2008)

bump (interested to see how this goes)


----------



## NCHERPS (Mar 22, 2008)

euan said:


> To the best of my knowledge there has never been a scientific paper showing ANY of the lines labelled as T- or T+ in reptiles is actuality or not. It has all been supposition due to appearances i.e the phenotype. Can you provide me with a paper where lab work has been do to show either is true ??? I would be very interested in a copy.



Euan,


You are just as aware as I am that scientific papers aren't in abundance where albino's and other reptile morph's etc are concerned. Researchers tend to concentrate on wild types rather than putting valuable research dollars into establishing whether David Barker has correctly labeled something as T+ and T-.
The fact remains that just because something might not yet of had a scientific paper(in relation to pythons) written about it doesn't mean he and many others aren't correct in their assumptions.
I seem to remember some time ago talk in the Leopard gecko community there was talk about undertaking Tyrosinase tests to establish what was what. I think there was also some work done on Rat snakes also.

As far as having not been in a big enough circle of herpetoculture, well maybe just a case of not being in a circle of herpetoculture that encompasses your views. There are many big name breeders that go along with the T+ and T- labels two of which you have mentioned yourself and countless others to boot.

What would you classify the animals as that are currently labeled as T+ and T-?
What would you label the conditions if not that described?

At the end of the day, people will always have different views and takes on the subject, mine is as I have expressed as it makes sense to me.

Cheers Neil


----------



## richardsc (Mar 23, 2008)

dabool u dont mean a lutino galah do u,if not id love to see a pic of a luecistic galah as well


----------



## Bapi (Mar 23, 2008)

Hi I don't know if this helps but in his book Reptile & Amphibians variants - H.Bernard bechtel states he performed the Dopa reaction on biopsies of albino san diego gopher snakes that produced normally coloured young in 1978. By this he determined that one was T+ and the other T-. 

The guy who reorganised the naming of parrot mutations is Dr. Terry Martin - his book available from ABK publication on parrot mutations is well worth a read. Oddly enough he doesn't mention leucistic at all - probably (and this is conjecture here) because its is not specific enough. 

Leucistic has a long history in bird watching. Words are what we define them to be - literally leucistic means whitish or headed in a white direction (in the same way that optimistic means happyish or headed in a optimal direction) Birdos use leucisitc to means anything whitish with normal coloured eyes. So it includes pieds, and all sorts of dilutes. 

At this point in time there is no single mutation in parrots that fully mimic the leukistic mutation in reptiles. (there are none that affect all chromataphores) to acheive the same result in parrots you need to combine at least two mutations. (this is probably because parrots have a unique class of pigments called psittacins but thats another story) 

Lutino galahs are amelanisitc and would be called albinos if they were reptiles. Albino galahs would be called snows if they were retiles so it gets complex......


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 23, 2008)

richardsc said:


> dabool u dont mean a lutino galah do u,if not id love to see a pic of a luecistic galah as well


no i meant luecistic galah there is a few photos floating around i will try and find them it was a wild bird.


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 23, 2008)

heere is a pic of a luecistic redtailed black cockatoo.


----------



## hornet (Mar 23, 2008)

thats not leucistic


----------



## Retic (Mar 23, 2008)

No, that definitely isn't leucistic.


----------



## Bapi (Mar 23, 2008)

As mentioned the mutant redtailed black cockatoo would be called leucistic by birdos because it is whitish with normal eyes. More properly bird keepers would call it a pied. Birdos have been using leucisitc for a long time so I don't think its appropriate for us reptile keepers to tell them they are wrong. They would in tern tell us we use albino wrong and we should call them lutinos and what we call snows (albino X axanthic) are "proper" albinos but I digress. If you google leucistic you will get all sorts of whitish birds. 

As an aside pied pythons have white areas (leucistic ) on normal coloured areas where as pied parrots/cockatoos have areas of hypomelanisitc (yellow/red coloured) areas on normal skin. (unless combined with a xanthic (blue) mutation).


----------



## richardsc (Mar 23, 2008)

the cocky looks yellow and black,luecistics dont have normal eyes,BLUE/BLACK EYES,i do think u have something special there,well who ever owns those northerns which i still say are hypos,definatly not a true luecistic,but where ever they are placed in the mutation stakes,lovely looking animals,would u by chance be able to get a pic of what a new born or juvie looks like,just curious to see what the juvies look like compared to the bigger one,jason lappins,wow that eastern certainly turned pale,nice pic


----------



## Bapi (Mar 24, 2008)

I can say with some authority that the correct name for the mutation of the cockatoo is Pied (check out "a guide to colour mutations & genetics in parrots" by Dr Terry Martin BVSc page 98) 
I am well aware they are something special. Despite the general reaction of this list every herpo who has seen them in the flesh has started drooling so its clear they are something special. 
Will try to get the requested pics. 
On the upside I am now aware of some tests I can do to catergorise the mutation more fully and a little more scientific than just looking at them in my hand. Will start to organise those when the everyone else goes back to work on tuesday. Will keep you posted.


----------



## Retic (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't think anyone is saying they aren't different, a few people seem to have posted photo's of similar animals so they aren't unique but it is clear they aren't leucistic.


----------



## euan (Mar 24, 2008)

NCHERPS said:


> Euan,
> 
> 
> You are just as aware as I am that scientific papers aren't in abundance where albino's and other reptile morph's etc are concerned. Researchers tend to concentrate on wild types rather than putting valuable research dollars into establishing whether David Barker has correctly labeled something as T+ and T-.
> ...




Neil You are reading my remarks from your eyes  The problem with forums is there is no real emotion which us humans use to understand each other.
My circle of herpetoculture acquaintances, circles the world  litterally, name a country with a reptile industry and I would probably have an acquaintance there  from hobby to professional, from retail to export 

I am not saying those animals labeled as T+ or T- are or are not, just noting that as far as I was aware it was not proven. People have been using the terms simply because another did without real knowledge of the correctness of the term or not. Frequently we see in all walks of life people saying things without any real knowledge of the subject rather they say it because another did, not because they actually know it  Example how many people made comments on this thread without any real knowledge ???  

I forgot about Bechtel's book, unfortunately my copy is in storage in the USA. He could be considered the grandfather of mutation reptile breeding started with albino cornsnakes nearly before I was born (an exaggeration). I can't remember when it was published but I think Krieger published it around the mid nineties.

Knowing quite well the extent of mutation reptile breeding in the USA, and haven returned to Australia to find it is now a mini USA  I have no doubt that mutation reptile breeding here will expand phenomenonally. So now is a good time to try and clear up mutation naming where possible. There are a couple of published books available to start from. Though to be fair in regards to one by Stephan Broghammer I have a dispute with him in regards to the naming of Jungle Ball Pythons  We have discussed it previously and we still do not agree  

As Bapi noted and I alluded to Terry Martin did research into bird mutations and their names and help greatly IMHO to remove a lot of confusion. Now that mutation reptiles have started to become available in Australia more confusion will come here. Especially when one considers that very few people in Australia have any experience with reptile mutation breeding and naming. Which is why I used the term "common usage".

It does amaze me though that nobody has done the research in the USA to produce (something like Terry Martins work) something modern on reptile mutations.


----------



## Bapi (Mar 24, 2008)

"It does amaze me though that nobody has done the research in the USA to produce (something like Terry Martins work) something modern on reptile mutations"

I think it will be a long time before that happens. people have been breeding bird mutations for a very long time and there are lots of them and lots of examples. Even so, so far only parrot mutations have been "sorted out" There are many other groups of birds which are still waiting. Finches, pigeons/doves etc.

The high incidence of pattern mutations and long generation time in pythons is going to make it even harder to get consistency across species. 

Anyway in an attempt to get some sort of consensus.
I am still left with this question. what would people call a mutation of chromatophore function that affects their function incompletely. (ie low, but not absent in all pigment types) ? - (leaving aside for a minute whether thats what these blueys are or not) Hypomelanisitic does cut it for me because that is a scientific term that means low melanin. To me a hypomelanisitc mutation is one which reduces ONLY melanin production. 
It seems that the consensus is that the term leucisitic should mean only the complete malfunction of chromatophores. (excluding the eyes) - so what would we call a related mutation that only affects their function a bit.


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 24, 2008)

all i can say is the white blueys are stunning when you see them in real life and i recon any bit as nice an albino bluey which i also like alot.
May be you could make up some elaborate queer sounding name for their mutation like what the yanks do probably helps to stop arguments.
i still say they are luecistic as hypomelanistic only starts to describe their mutation.


----------



## richardsc (Mar 24, 2008)

hypomelanistic only starts to describe there mutation so your saying there leucistic,hmmmm ok
on a personal level,i think these northerns look 1000 times nicer than the albino easterns,those albinos just dont look right to me,lol,the black easterns look awsome though,bapi thanks mate,would love to see a pic or 2 of these northerns as juvies,even a few together with normal appearing siblings,are they as pale as the adults when they are newborn or does it develop with age,i totally agree with u dabool,those white/pale northerns look very nice indeed,im imagining the pic doesnt do them justice either


----------



## NCHERPS (Mar 24, 2008)

euan said:


> Neil You are reading my remarks from your eyes  The problem with forums is there is no real emotion which us humans use to understand each other.
> My circle of herpetoculture acquaintances, circles the world  litterally, name a country with a reptile industry and I would probably have an acquaintance there  from hobby to professional, from retail to export
> 
> I am not saying those animals labeled as T+ or T- are or are not, just noting that as far as I was aware it was not proven. People have been using the terms simply because another did without real knowledge of the correctness of the term or not. Frequently we see in all walks of life people saying things without any real knowledge of the subject rather they say it because another did, not because they actually know it  Example how many people made comments on this thread without any real knowledge ???
> ...



God, that's alot of smilies! 
I have sent you a PM Euan.

Neil


----------



## Frozenmouse (Mar 24, 2008)

richardsc said:


> hypomelanistic only starts to describe there mutation so your saying there leucistic,hmmmm ok
> on a personal level,i think these northerns look 1000 times nicer than the albino easterns,those albinos just dont look right to me,lol,the black easterns look awsome though,bapi thanks mate,would love to see a pic or 2 of these northerns as juvies,even a few together with normal appearing siblings,are they as pale as the adults when they are newborn or does it develop with age,i totally agree with u dabool,those white/pale northerns look very nice indeed,im imagining the pic doesnt do them justice either


well there more luecistic than hypo so it would be more acurate hmmmm ok. weirdo


----------



## Kimbully (Mar 25, 2008)

This is interesting reading! Casper the croc is apparently leucistic - http://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-...rocodilians&animal=Saltwater_Crocodile#Casper


----------

