# chondros



## ad (May 8, 2004)

Hi
Does anyone know if any were sold this season. Did anyone get any?
I didnt see any advertised, were they all sold on waiting lists?
Or just not many bred this season?

Does everybody still want one?
Cheers
Ad


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## NoOne (May 8, 2004)

Ad i know of 2 clutches that sold before i got in and URS had a clutch as well but i don't think they sold many, i think they may have had a poor hatch rate or something, Roy Pails was selling some for someone else and there was another clutch in country NSW, that breeder has a 5yr waiting list. Those 5 clutches was all i saw and that was some serious looking and your damn right i still want some. Once i kissed some **** at the bank i was right to go but missed out.

I am a bit worried with this amnesty going on as to weather they will start cracking down on non australian GTPs.


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## sxereturn (May 8, 2004)

I know of one clutch up north but none of the offspring were offered to the public.


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## NCHERPS (May 8, 2004)

I would be interested in getting a pair or two, but would want them to be guaranteed sexed first.

Talking of GTP's, take a look at this albino one on a US site.
http://www.albinochondro.com/

Neil


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## NoOne (May 8, 2004)

Can't sex them until they at least a year old, good luck finding any that age.


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## kevyn (May 8, 2004)

Why are they so hard to come by in Australia?


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## NCHERPS (May 8, 2004)

Sorry NoOne, but I beg to differ on sexing until one yr, I know breeders in the UK that have popped successfully, and know you can sex them by probing at 6 mth's of age(as long as they have fed well, and haven't been fussy feeders, like so many are!).
I take your point though, that not many will want to wait, when they can sell them straight from the egg, but it's my criteria if I were to be offered some.


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## ad (May 8, 2004)

Thats unreal NoOne, you must have done some hunting! It seems demand is still high if a breeder has a waiting list that long.
that albino is awesome Neil.


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## NoOne (May 8, 2004)

Did these people go on to successfully breed these GTPs, pop sexing them causes spinal damage as they have a very fragile skeleton as juvis.
I would love to know these breeders names.

No good gtp breeders in the US sex them until they are at least a year old.


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## ad (May 8, 2004)

they can be popped, but as NoOne says it is extremely risky and the majority of breeders do wait a year. In asia they pop them regurlarly.
If a breeder is prepared to let you pop a hatchy, that would be your animal regardless, he wont let you go through the clutch until your happy.
Buying yearlings would be the best option, it would be a long time before they become available by the looks of things, and what would they be worth.


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## NCHERPS (May 8, 2004)

NOne,
I have PM'ed you.

Neil


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## ad (May 8, 2004)

NoOne said:


> I am a bit worried with this amnesty going on as to weather they will start cracking down on non australian GTPs.




No problems there, they have all been handed in! The amnesty was inundated with them apparently. Only true Iron range ones are available now, just ask the breeders!


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## NoOne (May 8, 2004)

Neil my PM doesn't work.

Thats ture ad any breeder will tell all gtps in australia are natives. :lol:


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## BROWNS (May 9, 2004)

WoW,Absolutely STUNNING!!! Can't even imagine what price would be put on an albino chondro.


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## NCHERPS (May 9, 2004)

NOne,
Please email me, so I can chat off here.
[email protected]

Cheers,
Neil


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## instar (May 9, 2004)

I thought they wernt called chondro's anymore, a book i have has them as Morelia viridis .???


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## snakehunter (May 9, 2004)

You say no popping as hatchlings, what about probing?


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## Hickson (May 9, 2004)

Chondro has been used as a common name for so long now, they will most likely always be refered to that way - no matter what their scientific name is.

Hix


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## Springherp (May 9, 2004)

I've always thought that chondropython was the new scientific name and morelia was the original?? :?


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## obee (May 9, 2004)

unless you have actually seen how delicate a gtp hatchling is you wouldn't even entertain the idea of probing.i believe we have 2 males and four females which is what we wanted picked on tail length. 

obee


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## Hickson (May 9, 2004)

The genus Chondropython has been around for yonks. I've got books that go back more than 20 years using _Chondropython viridis_. Interestingly, in 1983 when Wells and Wellington published their synopsis of the reptiles in Australia (a revision that received much condemnation) they formally synonymised _Chondropython_ with _Morelia_.

Despite the intial bad reviews, many of their revisions were accepted over time eg: they formally created the new genus _Antaresia_ which has come into usage only recently. It looks like this may be another example. Perhaps soon we will also have _Australiasis_ accepted aswell. 

Hix

*Ref:* 
Wells, R.W. & Wellington, C.R., 1983. _A Synopsis of the Class Reptilia in Australia_. Australian Journal of Herpetology 1 (3-4): 73 - 129


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## obee (May 9, 2004)

I would think in future if anyone is going to purchase gtp's make sure they are aussies or it could become very costly when they come to get 'em.

obee


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## zoe (May 9, 2004)

omg obee you have them? jealousy.... :mrgreen:


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## Ricko (May 9, 2004)

when do we get to see some pics obee? also 6 hatchy gtp's at around $5000 - $6000 each would be an expensive day and may have required a visit to the bank, wish i had that luxury. do you handle them much at all?


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## obee (May 9, 2004)

I sold a lot of animals to get them and went halves with another person.I don't handle them much and when I clean, the perch comes out snake and all ,placed on a stand.Many sleepless nights,faking dead after an assist feed as a hatchling and a prolapse.


obee


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## Ricko (May 9, 2004)

how are they going now? what age are they and also are they really cranky as i have heard them to be very agro? also any chance of a couple of pics? i understand if you dont want to though.

Cheers rick


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## Greebo (May 10, 2004)

A prolapse with a GTP!! My Gott, I would have heart failure.
Maybe when I retire and have the time to care for them, I might get some but for 5 grand I would rather get a plasma screen TV at the moment.


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## obee (May 10, 2004)

they are 17 mths old now doing very well,eating weaner rats every 10-16 days.they are very calm unless hungry on first disturbance,like most pythons.i keep everything except womas and they are by far the quietest .i would be happy to share photo's if i new how to post them.
greebs,heart failure could easily have occurred at any time in the 20 mins it took to reinsert the prolapse.a herptilogical nightmare of the worst kind.i was glad at the end it happened so i got the experience.gtp came to work with me for 3 days as i couldn't leave it....lol

obee


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## sxereturn (May 10, 2004)

Obee - email me the photos at [email protected] and I'll gladly put them up.


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## Ricko (May 10, 2004)

yes please would love to see some pics, i will get soem eventually even if it takes me 20 years. lol going halves is a fairly good idea as well.


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## sxereturn (May 10, 2004)

I think I need to go change my pants...Obee's GTP's.


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## Ricko (May 10, 2004)

i think i agree thank you very much obee and sxe for posting them they are awesome i am awestruck i want some, but i need money so i will come bak to reality. you can not describe them they are that nice just awesome looking snakes, sxe in future would you get any?


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## saikrett (May 10, 2004)

wow.... thats all i've got


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## NoOne (May 10, 2004)

Sxe these things happen when your young, theres ads in the paper that can help you  .


Nice animals Obee, i'm not jealous at all........... you bugger. :twisted:


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## obee (May 10, 2004)

I wish I could take a photo to show there real colour,these photo's are very washed out.The grey you see in them is skyblue,the yellow is like jungle yellow and the green is illuminus.Glad you enjoy them.Thankyou sxe.


obee


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## sxereturn (May 10, 2004)

Ricko - personally, I won't own them for a while. Too much risk for me, on a number of different levels.


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## ad (May 11, 2004)

Here's an interesting note about this particular GTP, a friend of mine posted these pictures on a American GTP site and more than 30 hits from different people all identified these pics as a Sorong animal. Definately not an Aussie but a beautiful animal regardless.


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## kevyn (May 11, 2004)

Sorry to late post on this one, but I think buddy in the U.S. has along way to go before he can claim an amelanistic specimen.


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## Blue_Streak (May 11, 2004)

How much would a hatchling GTP cost?


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## NoOne (May 11, 2004)

$5000+ ea


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## sxereturn (May 11, 2004)

$5000 would be a cheap one.


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## africancichlidau (May 11, 2004)

Yup, they are up around the 6.5K mark now


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## obee (May 12, 2004)

Because of the amnesty hatchling gtp's I'm told are now $7500 feeding.
Ad interesting about your mates comments about it being a sorong animal,proves they don't really know what they are talkin' about as DNA doesn't lie.The clutch was tested ,definately aussie.GUESS THEY DON'T GET TO SEE AUSSIE GTP'S SO WOULD JUST TAKE A STAB AT WHAT IT IS[PUT IT DOWN TO IGNORANCE].
Don't you know ad jealousy is a curse,I worked dam hard to get these no need to run them down mate.

obee.


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

Greetings people,
Well here we go again it seems. 
I know Obee quite well and have 'known' his GTP's from the moment they were bought back to FNQ as hatchlings and have watched their progress with regular visits so I feel I am more than entitled to jump in and offer my support to refute any aspersions "certain individuals" seem to have cast about their Aussie Status. 
As Obee already mentioned, these animals have been DNA tested and we are so happy to say that they will be in Obee's collection, and producing clutches of other Aussie babies hopefully. :lol: with the Australian Governments blessing.
Ad, are these American 'friends' of yours the same ones that are claiming to have Jungles in their collection when really these animals are a cross between Jungles and Diamonds? Luckily here in Australia we call a spade(or a shovel  ) a spade. 
Obee is a breeder who believes strongly in purity of species and is a passionate supporter of Aussie flora and fauna, particularly his reptiles.
Hopefully this Amnesty goes the way it should and animals such as Obee's GTP's will be ensured their rightful place as Aussies. 
One other thing I do know about Obee too is that he has a looong memory.
Regards Rina.


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## sxereturn (May 12, 2004)

I think Ad was talking about one of his mates GTP's, and was going to post photos. He made a thread about it a while ago and said a similar thing...if not, I'll shut up.


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## Robert (May 12, 2004)

Absolutley gorgeous.True aussie GTP.They don't come better than that.I'm sure alot of us are thinking it's time to start saving.
I really don't think Ad was trying to discredit your animals Obee.IMO.
Best of luck with any future plans Obee.I'm sure this will be the biggest test yet.But I imagine it would be very rewarding on many levels owning such rare beautiful snakes.


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## Magpie (May 12, 2004)

Sounded to me like he was trying to discredit them, I can't see how it can be read any other way.

Obee, to take more realistic coloured photos, you can try putting the snakes in bright but not direct light EG put a 100W halogen spotlight near them but direct it at a nearby wall or the ceiling. A flash will wash them out every time. Outside in the shade is great but dunno if you want to take such special animals outside. Also, if it's a modern digicam you are using, they often have diferent settings for diferent lighting.


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## Ricko (May 12, 2004)

hey obee please remember this site when you get a clutch off one of these animals so we can have the oppertunity to buy one off you, they look great and i am sure that they are great to keep well done on such beautiful animals.


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## ad (May 12, 2004)

Hi Shane,
Please read your reply to me and then re-read it again. 
I posted some pics of a friends gtp a while back and Rina (your side-kick) posted that particular post. Since then you have discredited Mark's jungle saying it was crossed with a vairegata and Brown's jungle that you accused of being crossed with a diamond. (as Rina has just 'suggested' again in the above post - gushing to your defence yet again)
You are the one who discredits peoples animals while trying to promote your own.
My post is a little taste of your own medicine *with your own words *- you didnt like it did you? 
*Think before you discredit peoples animals in the future.*

http://www.aussiepythons.com/index....amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=15

Others have a looong memory too.

Now for my words,
You spruick about the amnesty and exotic gtp's to further your commercial interest, stating you have aussie gtps.
How about we prove it, send me a skin shed and I will take it for dna testing. Now-a-days they can prove the difference between cape york and png gtps. I will hand all findings over to NPWS. I will immediately offer an apology if they are australian OR you can have them seized and destroyed if they are not. (your beliefs are so strong regarding exotics and locality you couldnt live with yourself unless you did euthanize them, could you? Please dont release them!)

How many aussie gtps have you actually seen? They look physically different than png animals with different markings.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/module...;include=view_photo.phpinclude=view_photo.php
http://www.aussiepythons.com/module...ery&amp;file=index&amp;include=view_photo.php

I hope Bob Withey doesnt mind me quoting a post he made some time ago on Yahoo.

"Unfortunately, there are very few True Aussie Green Tree Pythons held incaptivity in Australia. I am aware of only 7 held in this country, 5 thatwere bred from legally collected specimens and 2 that were legallycollected. Alas, they are now all well over 15 years of age with littlechance of breeding. There may be a few more that were collected illegallyand claimed on an amnesty that I am not aware of, but have yet to hear ofany. And the Queensland government does not appear willing to ever allow anymore to be legally collected from the wild.Just about all the other Green Tree Pythons held in this country that I haveseen in collections and on web sites are exotics(non Australian specimens).True Aussie GTP have a distinct colour pattern(see Barkers Pythons ofAustralia book). Their green colouration is totally a different shade totheir overseas cousins, being a far lighter green. They appear to only havespotted markings of either yellow or white spread in a line running abovetheir backbone. They also lack the blue blotches and blue lines over theirbodies that the overseas one have.All Aussie GTP's that I have seen over the past 20 years, plus every photoof them in the wild from Cape York have ALL had the same basic pattern andcolour.20 Years ago I argued that there were different Children'sPython species due to the differences in patterns from different parts ofAustralia. Most said I was wrong, but here today we now recognise they aredivided into 3 different species. 20 years ago I argued that there weredifferent Carpet Pythons around Australia and again, most said I was wrong.Yet here again today we now recognise the different species.Well its been the same with the Aussie GTP's. I have argued with peoplethat their GTP'S were not Australian. Of cause they state there is no way totell the difference and their's must be Australian and you can not proveotherwise.But those days are coming to an end. Ray Hoser has now described theAustralian GTP as a separate sub species, different to their overseascousins. Also, a great book on GTP's has now been published. The CompleteChondro Manual. This book shows the different colour variants from thedifferent locations of the overseas GTP's. In this book Greg mentions thatthe Cape York GTP is genetically closely related to the southern New Guineaspecies, but alas he only had a pic of a PNG specimen which is differentlycoloured. He assures me he will have a pic of an Aussie specimen when thebook is reprinted.For those interested, buy the Complete Chondro book and compare Greg'sidentification with the GTP's on our Australian web pages. Its funny howmost look almost identical to the Aru Island specimens. I also heard that afew young GTP's that were purchased last year as Australian were DNA testedat the S.A. Museum and were found to be the Aru Island species.I personally would not pay huge amounts of money for a GTP hatchling withoutseeing the adults and being sure they were Australian. I would always havethe fear that one day the authorities may realise the people are keepingexotic GTP's hidden on Australian permits and seize them.RegardsBob"




People, 
Please form your own opinion on whether Shanes gtps are definitely australian. I have doubts and I hope that Shane can clear this up for us.
As you see Shane, It is not nice to discredit peoples' animals. They might get annoyed with you and serve it back to you some day. 
Kind Regards,
ad.




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## NoOne (May 12, 2004)

URS has had their greens deemed Australian. They are breeding them.
Look at the website they look very similar to that pic of yours ad.


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## NoOne (May 12, 2004)

Sorry they were on the old website, but they have had them tested.


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

Just to clear up a misconception, I am no-one's sidekick and i was not discrediting Mark's animals but merely asking some questions. Thank- goodness Mark's attitude towards it was a whole lot more mature Ad. As for re-reading posts, no where did I, or did I even intend to make referance to either Mark ar Brown in my recent post but the actual American breeders who lay claim to purity of their animals when they are not ( and this is even admitted and justified by these breeders) so apologies to both Brown and Mark as Ad was borrowing strife for you both when there was never intended.
As to the "gushing" to Obee's defence, if I knew you and respected your opinion :roll: like I do Shane's, and you owned the GTP's that he does, well I would also come to your defence knowing the background to these animals as I do, but I don't imagine that situation is going to happen anytime soon.
At the end of the day, the GTP's are legal, beautiful and going to start breeding in the very near future with all things going as successfully as they are. I am sure your "kind" words won't make any impact on that Ad.
Regards Rina


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## NoOne (May 12, 2004)

Your my sidekick, sweet


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

Hey NoOne, you got my' loyalty' just calling me sweet. When you need me to be Bonnie to your Clyde just holler. :wink: 
Regards Rina


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## Greebo (May 12, 2004)

> People,
> Please form your own opinion


 I have formed an opinion but it is not about Obee or his GTP's.


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

Goodness Greebo, I hope it is not about my suitablity in being a 'sidekick'? :lol: 
Regards Rina


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## kevyn (May 12, 2004)

I stand corrected. After doing abit of research it is indeed a true almelansitic (albino) Green Tree Python.

Now continue on, fight amongst yourselves. :wink:


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

Hay, no fighting going on here! Just some healthy sharing of differing viewpoints via a neutral medium. :wink: 
Regards Rina


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## NoOne (May 12, 2004)

Even bigger sweet but hang on a sec bonnie comes first, i wanna be first


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

Whatever, I got your back. :wink: 
Regards Rina


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

Ad, have passed on your "challenge" to Shane who has just rang me from the Cape where he is presently pig- hunting. After he laughed his backside off for a good five minutes, he asked me to let you know that as you do not have the time spent up the Cape with Umpala traditional owners, whose country is well South of Iron Range ,but still in GTP range of distribution he can assure you many specimans have incredible blue colourations.
Thus Bob Withey's comments you posted, which by the way I understand was only a segment of the original, is incorrect!

I am guessing from the tone of your posts, you are not interested in catching up next time you up this way.LOL
Regards Rina


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## africancichlidau (May 12, 2004)

> Just to clear up a misconception, I am no-one's sidekick



Damn, that's it, I'm changing my name to Noone too  Will you be my sidekick as well then, my beautiful creature?


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## Rina (May 12, 2004)

That's alright Africa, I think you are pretty darn cool so I will fight the good fight for you also. Thank-you so much for the compliment too.  
Regards Rina


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## africancichlidau (May 12, 2004)

Oh Yippee


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## bigguy (May 13, 2004)

Rina,

Ad is absolutley correct. The obee Greens pictured are of PNG lineage. They are definately not Australian Green Pythons.

It was mentioned that they have been tested and are shown to be Australian. Prove it. Show us the results. Anyone can sprout that they have test results to prove their Greens are Australian. Its good for business if you want to sell and make money. But to prove good faith, the results should be made public.

At the present moment David Wilson is studying Greens in Cape York. I have spoken to him many times, and he assures me EVERY green(100's) he has found and tagged had the same typical Aussie patterning. Some females have had small blue blotches on them(I think he said he had found 5 or so) but they still had the standard markings.

Aussie Greens and Southern PNG Greens are genectically similar, whereas northern PNG Greens are totally different. As the Aussie and Southern PNG are similar it is arguable in a court room that the difference is not big enough to proove 100%. Just like the OJ Simpson trial in the USA. A technicality. But there is still a difference.

Luckerly, Aussie Greens seem to always share the same patterning and it is easy to tell the difference by sight alone. It takes me about 2 seconds to spot the differences.

Comepare Obees to Greg Maxwells Chrondro book and you will see they match some PNG specimens. Compare them to Dave Barkers Python book(which are Australian) and you will see the difference.

Anyway, I will post a pic of an Australian specimen to compare. If still in doubt, send Obees pictures to David Wilson and ask his opinion.


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## NoOne (May 13, 2004)

Many people i have talked to say that URS greens were deemed aussie by npws, you heard anything about that.
Personally i would buy any green python if i knew for sure it wouldn't be taken after the amnesty, aussie or not they are my fav snake and the reason i got into reptiles when i was young.


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## BuggieSmuggler (May 13, 2004)

So Bigguy how are your GTPs going? 
I only saw one adult at your place a couple of years ago & believe you won't breed them again after your run in with NPWS.
Did you ever get those beautiful babies back?


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

Buggie,

No I will not be breeding them again. My boy is now to old, + the fact i now have no more females anyway. . Gows Aussie females are now the last chance that I know of for any chance of Aussies being bred again in captivity. Unless Queensland NPWS allows a few to be collected


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

No one,

Ultimates Greens were purchased from Buckley in Queensland. Buckley has been to court 5 different times over his adult breeding snakes and have been found by the courts to be legally owned.He proved to the courts his PNG snakes was legally given to him from Taronga zoo years previously.

This means that Ultimates Greens(which are not Australian) are legal and can not be confiscated at any time. These snakes can be proven to be legally imported into Australia. It also means that any bought from Ultimate are also legal, but please DO NOT mislead the public in saying they are True Australian Greens. They are legally held PNG Greens.

However, all the other PNG Greens that were laundered as Australian species in the amnesties, could at any time be confiscated by Customs under the new federal laws.


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## BuggieSmuggler (May 14, 2004)

Bigguy, Who's Gow?


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## Greebo (May 14, 2004)

Graeme Gow?


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## Hickson (May 14, 2004)

BuggieSmuggler said:


> Bigguy, Who's Gow?



Who's Gow? Boy, you must be young ! :lol: 

Hix


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## sxereturn (May 14, 2004)

There are more Australian GTP's then that...but not in captivity, just zoo's.


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## Robert (May 14, 2004)

mm interesting.
Out of curiosity does anyone know what the Irwins have on display?.GTP wise.Just wondering.
And i hope Mr Gow can get those little gems reproducing.
I am learning alot from this post though.Very intersting to hear everyones veiws.


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## NoOne (May 14, 2004)

Thats why i asked bigguy, it seemed a bit strange that npws would deem them aussie if they weren't, but legalised PNG greens sounds a bit more likely.
It does seem stupid that one persons exotic greens can be legal and anothers can't, it makes the the situation bloody hard. I'm in market for greens but it seems your buggered which ever way you go.


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## snakehunter (May 14, 2004)

Surely the aussie reptile park would be able to get permission to collect a few adults to maintain a pure australian line in captivity, even if it is only for the purpose of zoo display initially?


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## obee (May 14, 2004)

hi everyone, sorry about the lenght of this post, but as there were a few shots fired while i was away i would like to take the oportunity to return some of my own.
first i would like to appologize to any person who may have felt i tried to discredit them i say it how it is and people always know where they stand,perhaps my biggest fault,but if i am wrong i take pride in stating the fact.like it or hate it ,it's just my opinion.i only open my mouth when i believe i'm right or i trust my source of info[someone you look up to ad provided the info in regards to diamond cross jungle lines that i refered to at another time].my grandfather once said,"Listen to everyone,learn from anybody but when its time to talk, be correct and prepared to back it up on all levels."this has molded my life.Hence the amount of posts by me on this site.call me what you will,but i prefer to sort diagreements out on the flat,usually over quickly but not an option here.
i do not wish to discredit you ad, you seem to have done a pretty good job of it yourself on this site and to be setting up some bigger fish to fry.to all the people who have contacted me and posted on this thread ,no i don't really take him serious either and be aware everyone that just because you have done something for decades doesn't mean you know everything, you can still learn from those who don't have the years behind them.never be afraid to put forward ideas or think what you have to say is silly,this is the first thing i say to my trainee keepers and after 1yr some are of more benefit to the animals and myself than some of my senior keepers.your motivation ad is totally to stir but you have taught me nothing.i know you have been waitng to have a crack at me because i pulled you into line on atr.so hear it goes.

i have to prove nothing to you ad or biguy about gtp locale and honestly would not take pleasure in you proving yourself wrong .if you thought we didn't check,research and double check with nwps before we handed over 30 grand then you are wrong again.they are deemed aussie with dna proof and the safest line in the country.people brought gtp's into qld on an international licence,very risky.If you bothered to glance at ultimates site you may learn something yourselves, and going with that if you intend quoting greg maxwells book on gtp's please do so to its full extent. As you would know it lists the recognised area forms for gtp's and one of thoses area forms is listed as The cape york ( Merauke) race. That being because it is nearly imposible to tell the difference via d.n.a at this stage and has been known to have been that way for some time. the write up on the cape york (merauke) race also states how similar there apearence is to the aru race in that it features lime green animals with white dorsal markings, and frequently with blue on the ventral and lateral areas.It also goes on to state many more very relevent points which sadly we dont have the room to attach to this post but on his site we think most of this information is there to be read by all, So even people without this leading book on the subject have the oportunity to browse the information. To try and pass judgment on a pic taken as a happy snap, of a yearling animal at the time, of a animal that goes through the most dramatic changes in both colour and pattern from hatchling to adult is ill conceived to say the least. So on that note ad you pay the fee to the sa museum for dna testing,send us the receipt and we will send them a slough.That way we will all know that the skin is being sent to the right place with the rights results being returned. Frankly i would have a little problem sending you the skin to pass on as its very much out of the trust range that you would fit into. We believe siblings of our animals have been tested by the same institution and were deemed to be exactly what they are stated as.personally i would put my money away towards one of my future legally deemed aussie gtp hatchlings.
We would like to take the oportunity to thank you guys on getting this topic running so hot, As im sure tim and donna from ultimate reptiles would as well, the spin off from this thread has been unbeleivable for us. Now alot more people know just how safe this line is compared to the others, with an amazing amount of people looking to be kept upto date on how this goes with the hopes of us starting a waiting list for offspring in the future.
i beleive in the amnesty because i love our fauna,so much so that if our gtp's were not aussie and on an international licence i would be the first to take them in as demand for them in zoos is high and this would ensure there survival.perhaps they could come to our zoo.rules are rules and i have a very good professional working relationship with npws,the fact is they are the safest line and they are that for a reason as stated.at the end of the day i don't have breeding experience with gtp's ad but you obviously have faith in the fact that i will,thankyou, but commercial gain was not really the motivation for getting them[who wouldn't want a gtp]
but it would be nice to get the 30 000 back.with all the info you read and the limitted advice in this country we have done bloody well to get them to this stage[many people suffered losses] legally they can be reproduced and that is the underlying factor.
i dont have to promote the rest of my animals ,they sell themselves all in 72 hrs this year.i sold less than half of what i bred,could of sold a 100 if i had them and enquiries are a almost daily,over 120.i may not breed jungles this year, but could produce around 100,so its not a financial thing for me.infact i refused several people this year because i didn't feel they were suitable to the species and helped them find what would be with other breeders.i can send you the e-mails ad.i treat new time herpers this way because of the many negative stories i've heard about the biguys dealings. 
P.S..bigguy is it true you are 6foot7 and 150 kgs. Just a guess from your user name..


obee


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## obee (May 14, 2004)

i believe irwin's gtp's are of the same line as ours from buckley.


obee


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## sxereturn (May 14, 2004)

Yep. Irwins are all Australia. They also have one that is pure blue...amazing.


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

Obee,

Now lets try to work this out. 
1)Bob Buckley gets PNG Green legally from Tarongo Zoo. 
2) He breeds his greens, raises babies and breeds from the young
3) Tim from Ultimate buys 6 from Buckley
4) Qld NPWS hit the roof he sold them, even though they gave him export permits to do so
5) Buckley Greens confiscated by Qld NPWS
6) After 5 court cases Buckley found inocent of all charges as PNG Green were legally imported by Taronga from the USA
7) Court orders return of all Buckleys animals
8) Steve Irwin refuses to release them, stating Oshea from fauna squad said he could keep them.
9) Tim from Ultimate raises his 6 from Buckley
10) Tim breeds his young
11) Obee pays $30,000 to Tim for 6
12) Obee now claims they are pure Australian, even though he bought from Tim who bred his from Buckley's who had to prove in a court of law that his Greens where legally imported PNG specimens he aquired from Taronga.
13) Under the new Federal Govt rules governing exotics, unless you can prove that the animal was legally imported, you are breaking the law and can be fined. Buckleys have been proven in a court of law to be legally imported, ego all progeny of his line are also legal. Just not Australian 

Geez Obee, you convinced me. Of coarce you are the expert on Greens as you have kept them 17 months. As you said i dont know everything and I am wrong on this instance. Or could it be i have known Bob Buckley for 20 years and have shared breeding details with him over this time as we were both breeding Greens for that same period.

As for Maxwell book his description of the Cape York(Merauke0 race is based on the PNG type specimems held in the USA. In his revised edition Greg will be showing an Aussie Green as he now realises they are different in colour morphs.

Its also funny that these WORLD LEADING EXPERTS like Barker and Maxwell state when they see a Aussie Green that there is nothing like them in the USA, and yet when ad placed Obee's Green pic on a US site, all stated they recongnised his as PNG specimens

For the people reading this post, no one has to take my word for it. Just ring Tim at Ultimate and ask who he bought his breeders from. Than ring Bob Buckley and have him confirm his PNG breeder from Taronga. Then make up your own minds.


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## Ricko (May 14, 2004)

obee what zoo are we talking about? and i dont have any experience with gtp's and neither do most people on this site but when and if you start a waiting list for those gtp's make sure you pm me with what will happen and how much they will be sold for?

Thanks heaps Rick


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

Obee,

Just one more thing. I have 40 years experience with reptiles and just on 20 years with Aussie Greens. I had no intention posting to this thread, matter of fact did not even know it was going on. But when Ad posted something I had written ages ago and you discredited what I had written,I was advised by friends to read this post and to reply.

Not once did I personally attack you, I just quoted the truth which is something you do not want other people to hear. And yet you try to discredit my knowledge, you imply I have bad dealings with people and then try to insult me personally.

I only have one thing to say to you OBee Very PETTY & CHILDISH


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## Ricko (May 14, 2004)

hey bob your a lucky man to have had gtp's for over 20 years. how old is your oldest one?


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## NoOne (May 14, 2004)

The way you explain things Bob  that makes alot of sence to me, i had been told by many people that they were aussie, i had my doubts as you had told me about it a while back but them someone said they had been deemed aussie by NPWS, but in fact they had been deemed legal PNGs.

One thing thats i'm not sure of is you say that any breeding from that line can be legally sold and held as they were proved to be legally imported but didn't NPWS say that legal exotics weren't allowed to be bred?

I don't like this thread it's making me nervous :shock:


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

Sxe

I know of only 7 legally held Greens in Australia. Five were bred by Rob Bredl 20 years ago, and Steve Irwin had 2 in his collection when I was last there in 1995. I believe Steve bred his back then, hatching about 7, but I also heard they died.

John Oshea illegally gave Steve Irwin Bob Buckleys breeding Greens while his court cases were still pending. This was against the law to do so. The courts have ordered the return of his breeders to Buckley, but Irwin is refusing to release them as he claim Oshea gave them to him.

I believe Irwin has actually bred from Buckleys breeders, but Sxe, these are not true Aussie Greens. There has never been an all blue Green found in Australia yet. A few females have had a few blue patches on their bodies no bigger then 5cm , but thats it.


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## sxereturn (May 14, 2004)

Alright, cool. I know Steve has received other confiscated Chondro's too.


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

No one,

NSW NPWS will not allow the breeding of exotics held on a prohibited licence that were claimed on the amnesty here in NSW. Buckleys Greens are on standard reptile keepers licences, therefore they are legal to breed and can not be confiscated.

If I was to buy any Greens being bred in Australia these days, I would make sure they were Tims or any bred from his young. These may not be Australian, but are definately legal and can not be confiscated by the authorites as these are the only ones that were legally imported. $5000 to $7000 is a lot to risk from other breeders as they could be subject to consfication from the federal govt


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## Blue_Streak (May 14, 2004)

whats THE rarest snake in austrlia, doess steve irwin have it?


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

Blue Streak,

It would have to be the Rough Scale Python which is now being bred by the Aust Reptile Pk


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## RAZZA (May 14, 2004)

:evil:


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## BuggieSmuggler (May 14, 2004)

Hey Bigguy, Is it true that Steve Irwin testified as an expert witness in a QLD court that reptiles are genetically programmed to grow a a set rate & you can't make them grow any faster by feeding them more?


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## Blue_Streak (May 14, 2004)

why i a RSP so rare, how does it differ from other pythons


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

Buggie,

Yes, you are 100% correct. According to Steve Irwin( the reptile expert), reptiles growth rates are not effected by food in any way and no matter how much food you give them, they will not grow any faster. They will only get fatter like overfeeding a human child He also stated it was impossible to breed small monitors, because he and his father could not after 10 years of trying . His statements are all recorded in court transcripts for anyone to research and read.


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## BuggieSmuggler (May 14, 2004)

Yes I had heard that dobbing has proved to be a lucrative passtime for good ol Steve.


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## bigguy (May 14, 2004)

Blue Streak

There has only ever been a handful found to this day. The Reptile Park, after years of trips, finally found where they lived. After years of negotiations with Calm, they were finally given permission to collect a small breeding colony. John weigel is now breeding from these origional specimens and the young are slowly being given to major Australian Zoos. 

Maybe, in another 10 years or so, John will be able to give to the public. Well lets hope so anyway.


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## RAZZA (May 14, 2004)

:wink:


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## obee (May 14, 2004)

big guy this is the thing i'm having trouble grasping.. you say you were breeding gtp the same time as bob. if so where are the prodgeny from these breedings.? if they infact actually happened how can you say there are no other lines of aussie gtp in this country.? after all you have said yours were some of the only ones, so offspring from them would surely be in oz also.i heard when they were taken from you ended up getting 2 males back so how did you produce from them and you never said anything.mmm
with all due respect to you and what you have done bob. there really is only two people in this country worth taking to with regards of practical gtp results. tim from ultimate reptiles for husbandry as his results speak for themselves. and david william on the study that he has been doing for a long time now. and frankly we haven't seen many results from you with this species todate and ad running off at the mouth like he does really is funny.i've noticed he has become very quiet on this all of a sudden.
i did not discredit the truth on the cut and paste of yours that ad posted. i just highlighted the fact that in the discussion you stated aussie gtp don't have blue on them but after you were sent a pick that david williams had taken in the iron range you now say they do, which is it bob?you should of asked me even i could have told you that,guess you couldn't find it in any book , the problem there lies in the fact like already said , that only half of the discussion was used by ad and held little if any relevance to this discussion.
bob you wrote......(Geez Obee, you convinced me. Of coarce you are the expert on Greens as you have kept them 17 months. As you said i dont know everything and I am wrong on this instance. Or could it be i have known Bob Buckley for 20 years and have shared breeding details with him over this time as we were both breeding Greens for that same period.) ......
.if you bothered to take notice of what i wrote i was talking to ad about being proven wrong as he is the one thats offered to pay for the d.n.a test. thats why i wrote ( prove yourself wrong.. if directed at the both of you i would have wrote prove you both wrong.) it was your decision to get involved with the thread after all as im sure the big guy wouldnt be told what to do.
anyway on that note its just a matter of time before we receive the receipt for the payment of the d.n.a. test as ad offered in a public forum then we will be happy to have the results published for all to view as they will be returned the same as the others.( deemed australian) the key word and the one we always use is DEEMED.

my understanding is that not all of bob animals came from taronga zoo and some of the animals he had were infact oz gtp and yes the parents of ours did have suspect blood from the same race with the same indistinguishable dna in their back ground.think about it bob.

if ad has infact posted my pic on an american site for them to past judgement please post the link to the dicussion so we can all see it. 
if in fact this hasn't happened before this week you may also like to admit you are wrong on this as well.

the bootom line is that we stated they are deemed to be ozgtp by dna sampling. the are advertised on ultimates site as the cape york ( merauke) race as they are described in the book. both you and i know that the dna of both southern png and oz gtp is to hard to split.i suppose you think that gene flow doesn't occur between sth png,torres strait and the cape then. 

on the matter of attacking you personally. im picking your refering to the referance of your user name. i guess you dont have the same sense of humour as some of us. but think about it a little.. THE BIG GUY. would get the same sort of jives if i used a user name like Best reptile breeder and im sure you would be one of the first to comment on the statment made from the use of a user name like that as i did with yours.


obee


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## bigguy (May 15, 2004)

Obee,

You ask about my breedings and also question there reliablity. Well I can assure you, I had two clutches of Greens from my pair from Rob Bredl. Out of these I GAVE, yes thats right, gave at no cost, over a dozen to some of my friends. I kept the remaining for my own colony. So weres all my progeny you ask. Well ask John Osea of the Queensland Fauna Squad. His mission in life was to have all Greens confiscated so no one would have any.

Just after Buckley's were seized, Oshea then came after mine. After a huge raid at my dwelling Osea had all my Greens taken, and then confiscated all those I had given away to my friends. I had 18 adults at the time of the raid. All went to Taronga, as well as Buckleys 27 hatchlings, plus a dozen that were seized coming into Brisbane from overseas and in a period of 2 years over 60 Greens died at Taronga Zoo. 

They also tried to have Tims siezed in SA, but SA NPWS would not have a bar of it, luckerly.

In 1997, I was finally returned what was left. Two males, one which was my male from Rob Bredl, the other a PNG male that had my females microchip in it. Someone at the Zoo had swapped my snake for an exotic. It was also widely known that this same Taronga keeper was in fact selling Buckley's hatchlings for a thousand each. An investigation was made and it was found over half of the alledged dead greens were unaccounted for at the zoo.

This was the end of my breeding Aussie Greens, so Oshea got his wish. You can read about my trouble with Oshea in Hosers book, Smuggled 2. If Oshea had not siezed my 18 adult Greens, I would have bred literally hundreds by now and the price would have been around $1000, not the huge amount that is now being asked for them at present.

As for you saying I am wrong about Ad stating your Green pictures were seen by over 30 US breeders who identified them as PNG's, I refer you to read back to page 3 or 4 of this thread were he clearly states those facts. Am I wrong in stating whats on this thread. I think not again. 

As for Buckley's origional breeding. He only had two greens to start with. Try not to infer he may have had several others as well as the Taronga PNG .

Now for your DNA evidence. You are correct. Aussie Greens and Southern PNGS are nearly the same, with not enough difference to put up a 100% legal aguement in court. So how does that prove yours is Australian or PNG. It doesnt prove either way. You can not prove your is either an Australian or PNG. Arn't we lucky however, that it appears every photo taken of an Australian Green, as well as every one collected in the past and at the present by David Wilson(not Williams) have all shown to have the same basic colouration. Even the 5 females Wilson found with the few Blue blotches still shared the basic colouration and markings.

Tims and yours, Obee, are the only Australians that do not share this common colour and marking trait. In fact they are identical to the markings and colour of the PNG Greens. Could this mean that Buckley was not lying when he testified in court that he had bred from the Taronga Zoo PNG specimem, hense the PNG colouring. Or are we to believe you that Buckley was mistaken, that the 30 US herps that Ad mentioned are also wrong and do not know what they are talking about,that even though yours do match pic's in Maxwells book that it is wrong also, and that after all my involvement with Aussie Greens and my knowledge of Buckley that I am also mistaken.It seems to me that the mounting evidence tends to lean towards the fact that you may be mistaken with your claim of Aussie Greens.

Why did Queensland NPWS allow you to keep yours on a specialist licence. Simple. Buckley beat them in court and yours are decendants of his.


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## ad (May 15, 2004)

Hi Obee,
There is no need for any comment from me, but if you insist....

You, with minimal-years reptile keeping experience - 17 months with greens - arguing with someone with 40 years keeping experience -20 years experience with the pythons discussed.

Facts backed with experience - Or -your 'research before you handed over your $30k' 

Sounds like a kid in a go-kart telling brocky how to drive bathurst.

It appears you have legal-kept png gtps, not true aussies - please let it be the last time we hear you advertising ' true aussie' greens. please refer to the as 'legal png greens', that will clear up these discussions in the future and not confuse the gullible. 

I would prefer to keep discussion to the animals, not mocking peoples usernames, but like that kid in the go-kart - its the only place for your arguement to head.
Kind Regards
Ad


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## obee (May 15, 2004)

20 yrs breeding,2 clutches,18 adults.nothing you say adds up mate,tim bred more than that in one year.VERY UNSUCCESSFUL 20 YRS I WOULD SAY.
at know stage did i say pure 100% aussie why would i.i said deemed australian ,as the line is advertised as CAPE YORK[MERAUKE]RACE as stated by the gtp bible you often refer to.so guide me bob are my animals ioo% pure sth png? or are they what we say they are.
its easy to say your prices would be lower now bob you have no animals.sounds a bit coulda,shoulda,woulda but never did.
look at the middle photo of my animal a good representation of it's green colouration.compare it to the photo of the animal you posted wow, what you know same colour green, oh and is that blue on your animal.so if i believed what you originally said then i would say yours is sth png cause it has blue.come on mate you might baboozal most but not all.
oh there you are ad,steppin out from behind uncle bob.still waiting for the RECEIPT and the LINK mate.you are obviously on the back foot and for the record i would love to sit in a cart next to brocky.i guess when you fork out the money for the test.the test will reveal you still won't be able to call the greens what you want,pure sth png.because they are what they are.pretend all you want as i said earlier jealousy is a curse ad.


obee


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## obee (May 15, 2004)

After sitting back and watching how this discussiion has slowly veered away from our original involvement we would like to return the issue of a challenge. Ad, you posted a pic earlier of a GTP either yours or a friends, you have quiet readily pointed the finger at our animals, now we would like you to direct the same focus back on your friends animal. Once the DNA findings are done, hand the results into NPWs so that animal can then be taken care of under the Amnesty rules.
As this animal was the one that was posted for people to comment on it's locality data, you might like to inform Bob, Ad, that the path he was taking about it being one of our animals is in fact incorrect.
I would like to highlight the fact that obviously there was another animal other than the Taronga animal of Buckley's involved in the breeding and yes we did see the one bright blue animal that was used in the linage of our GTP's so we knew what we were getting. We were always aware of at least one supect animal in the breeding background.
I will say this one more time, they were deemed Australian by a Court of Law as their DNA could not split them, and were always referred to deemed Australian of Cape York(Meruke) Race.


obee


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## dobermanmick (May 15, 2004)

???? from the dna results if they cannot specifically identify between the cape york and the png then can people honestly advertise them as Australian or will there always be an element of doubt ???


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## zoe (May 15, 2004)

and can they confiscate if they cant definitively say which is which?


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## westhamsc (May 15, 2004)

DNA is not the way to go as DNA is depended on your mothers and your fathers DNA (year 10 sicence so it may be wrong)

Jacob


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## ad (May 15, 2004)

Final say..........

With these 2 quotes Shane I can't see a reason to proceed with dna tests, you have admitted what we have been trying to tell you, they are not 'true aussies'



> and yes we did see the one bright blue animal that was used in the linage of our GTP's so we knew what we were getting.





> were infact oz gtp and yes the parents of ours did have suspect blood from the same race




As to the original animal, I see no need to proceed with annoying the owner any more than your original discrediting of his animal, which started this whole discussion. My friendship was severely strained after you did that Shane, take pride in that at least.

I would like to add that I do not know Bob, I have never spoken to him, I have emailed him about his blonde spotteds and that is the only contact I have ever had with him.
I have a lot of respect for the man's reputation and the posts he has made here reflect a very experienced and knowledgable man. A man as such deserves respect, even from the legendary OBEE, i think it would make your grand-dad proud if you apologized to him.

Nice to have amicable discussions again, I will be up there is September, I shall pop in and say Hi!!
Regards
Ad


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## instar (May 15, 2004)

Imo, GTP's are not worth the money or the headache. Ill admire pics and be happy with that!


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## BROWNS (May 15, 2004)

So at the end of the day they are NOT TRUE Aussie greens.I'm glad that has been cleared up then.

So as it stands there are only a few TRUE Aussie greens "on the books" and if they aren't bred we have no way of getting pure Aussies.I would think purchasing "legal png" or "deemed" Australian specimens is like buying a legal exotic.

Most people that know Buckley knew his greens were png.


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## obee (May 15, 2004)

to the administrator and moderators,thankyou for allowing this thread to run it's course.could have got ugly but didn't,so proves it can be done.

ad between YOU and bob our gtp's were sorong then aru and now sth png which you could not prove.
YOU issued a challenge YOU backed out of.
WE issued a challenge YOU backed out of.
YOU brought attention to and more than likely condemmed your friends gtp.
WE always said our animals were deemed oz of cape york[merauke] race which were,are and always will be what WE always said according to dna and a court of law.
YOU wanted to stir and teach me a lesson,YOU FAILED but in the process became a comedian and directed incredible attention/interest to our legal oz gtp's.thankyou.
YOU failed to produce this, to date imaginery link when WE asked more than once for you to do so.
YOU indirectly involved bob in this discussion which he demonstrated a lack of knowledge WITH THIS SPECIES by his inconsistent info and changing of mind.which i have been informed by ppl of equal hertological standing when it comes to gtp's knows less than he says.obvious to ppl who open there eyes.i am dissapointed in this because without knowing bob i had until now the utmost respect for the man. 
YOU failed to fulfil or answer any of our questions.
YOU ACHIEVED DIDLY SQUAT MATE.
as for the visit,you know nothing about me or my knowledge of herps as i keep to myself.if you feel the need to meet i shall pm every contact detail i have to you on your request,if you are short cash i will help you with a flight.trust me, not in your best interest cause now your talkin my language.


obee


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## NoOne (May 15, 2004)

Obee,
I don't have anything against you but you are now the one doing the discrediting.

Why say you have heard about negitive dealings with Bob? what does this have to do with your greens?
I don't know Bob that well but he has always sold top quality repitles to me and everyone i know, i would back his opinion before just about anyones, i think it's sad you resorted to that kind of thing.


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## obee (May 15, 2004)

GRANTED YOU ARE CORRECT NOONE I WAS WRONG IN DOING THIS AS I DONT KNOW HIM AND ARE ONLY GOING ON OPINIONS AND STORIES OF OTHERS WHO HAVE DEALT WITH HIM FOR THAT I AM INDEED WRONG AND TAKE IT BACK,I OPOLOGIZE BOB FOR THIS COMMENT IT WAS UNCALLED FOR.


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## sxereturn (May 15, 2004)

It's just a snake.


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## dobermanmick (May 15, 2004)

a very nice one at that!


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## Magpie (May 15, 2004)

I gotta admit though, I'm a bit confuzzled... how did ad's mate get a true aussie gtp?


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## bigguy (May 15, 2004)

Obee,

You remind me of Ray Hoser. you can read things that are not even written.

In you last post you attack me on numerous levels, in a vein attempt to discredit my knowledge.

You state I supplied inconsistant info. Where?? I re read my posts and never changed my veiw even once.

You state I can not make up my mind re your Greens localities, yet I have never said anything other than that I believed they were PNG.

You state I have bad dealings with people which implies dishonesty. Name one time I have had a bad dealing with anyone

You state that for 20 years experience 18 hatchlings was nothing to talk about. You are wrong again. I never said 18. Read again. Maybe you should add in the ones I GAVE away and maybe there may have been some junvenille deaths that I had not mentioned. And for only 2 clutches in that time, well it is hard to breed them when they are confiscated and killed at a zoo. You mention Tim knows more than me and he outbred me with just one clutch. How many did he hatch this year. How can you claim anything on clutch sizes.

You state you have lost respect for me. Why, because I stated true facts. Well Obee, I have no respect for anyone who twists the truth to suit themselves. 

Speaking of inconsistant you first state yours are True Aussie Greens with DNA tests to back it up. Now you state you were aware of Buckleys PNG in the breeding and still state they are Australian. Just because Dna could not prove beyond doubt that PNG and Aussies are different, does not make yours Australian. Merauke is in PNG, not Cape York.

I have email Greg Maxwell, who is now aware of the differences between the two colour morphs to clarify this matter. When Greg replies I will post his answer. It should be relevant as his book is quoted as the source of the one race in 2 countries.

To the readers of this thread. I appologise for the long replies but dont take kindly to personal attacks on my character or knowledge. For anyone interested re read my posts and see if Obee was correct in his comments of me, or was he just throwing as much dirt as he can hoping some will stick. This will be my last post on the matter till Greg Maxwell, one of the worlds leading experts on Green pythons gives me his view on the matter


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## africancichlidau (May 15, 2004)

No need to apologise for the length of replies gentlemen, I for one have learnt a heap from this thread and have found it very useful indeed.


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## Springherp (May 15, 2004)

Same here! what a battle this is turning out to be. Keep it up fellas


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## obee (May 15, 2004)

you want your inconsistancy's read them all on the other site this has now popped up on.the only consistant is what i said, don't twist things now to try and dig out of the whole you are now in.there is a lot more knowledge out there than what you know.if you want i can bring up stuff you have done and said about ppl you call friends behind there back if you want the thread to go this way.as i said i back up anything i say if you think i'm bluffing i know we can slug this out on another site.


obee


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## obee (May 15, 2004)

you are unable to prove anything you 2 why don't you just leave this alone caus i am truly getting sick of you talkin around in a circle to achieve nothing to justify anything you both say.all these gtp's you bred bob where are they why did gow's animals not get taken what did you do wrong for everyone around you at the time to suffer.i have a s...load of ?'sthat i have been told answers to already bet they are different to what you say.

obee


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## obee (May 15, 2004)

perhaps you read again bob where did i say 18 hatchlings and my pure aussie gtp in this thread.20 yrs breeding experience,rubbish,as you said yourself you could have bred hundreds in 20 yrs why didn't you.because you might have kept them for 20 yrs but bred only 2 clutches in 20 yrs.if they were confiscated the 18 adults you bred 2 clutches previous.thats 2 yrs what did you breed for the other 18.see the big gigantic hole in just this part of your story.you will never pull the wool over my eyes.i know to much about you and am not clouded by respect of an elder or experience to see the full picture.


obee


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## obee (May 16, 2004)

Magpie said:


> I gotta admit though, I'm a bit confuzzled... how did ad's mate get a true aussie gtp?


thats why ads friendship is being strained with his mate,because ads mate didn't get a true aussie gtp and ad has brought this to the attention of the country.


obee


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## obee (May 16, 2004)

'Most Australian specimans of Green Tree Pythons have a thin, mid-dorsal line, sometimes a dusky line in which lie scattered pale green or yellow-green scales, SOMETIMES organized in solid continuous line of pale green or white scales. This vertebral stripe of pale scales is also typical of SOUTHERN NEW GUINEA specimans. This VARIES AMONG INDIVIDUALS IN IT'S COMPLETNESS and distinction; it begins on the neck and passes posteriorly along the vertebral line onto the tail where, typically, it becomes less distinct. The tail tip maybe green, pale, dark grey or black. Indistinct BLUE LATERAL MARKINGS MAYBE APPARENT, INCLUDING VERTICAL LINES, OCELLI, OR DOTS. White or yellow scales maybe randomly scattered along the sides. On the side of the head a BLUE LINE, sometimes indistinct, extends from the nasal scale above the nostril, passing backward thru the eye and ending above and slightly behind the angle of the jaw. The labial scales around the mouth are paler in colouration; usually pale green, pale- yellow, or white. In some specimans the labial scales may exhibit CONSIDERABLE BLUE COLOURATION'. 
DAVID G. BARKER.


obee


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## Slateman (May 16, 2004)

Hmm. Interesting discussion.
I am sorry to hear Big guy story. Must be heart braking to loose all the animals like that.
And I agree with Ad. Somebody should dig deep in to his concience and apologize.
Til now Bob posted here only valuble posts with help or articles backed by extreme experiance.
Thank you Bob for your valuble contributions.
I would like to ask you if we can keep some of your stories in this forum as a Article.


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## obee (May 16, 2004)

slateman i have absolutely nothing to apologize for, the one time i did, i did and deleted the comment.i have a clear conscience because on this topic bob is inconsistant and inconcise, and if he would like to continue his leads of info and experience i shall prove so.i will stick to the tone of the thread buy his lead as i don't have to get to the ugly facts to prove his shortcomings on oz gtp's.
slateman this is your opinion and not necessarily the opinion of all according to my many pm's,e-mails and phonecalls of encouragement.


obee


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## bigguy (May 16, 2004)

I have two emails to attach. I hope this works as I am not good at working PC's.

1st is an email from David Wilson who is doing his PHD on Greens at Cape York. Here you will see that David states all the specimens he found share the same colour and paterning, however a few had small(less then 5cms) blue blotches. He then goes on to say that none had any lines of any colours on their bodies.

Obee directed us to look at Tims web site. Looking at these pics I couldn't help notice the Blue lines on their bodies. I also noticed Tim's site states Merauke types, note Cape York specimens, which would be more correct. 

The second email is from Greg Maxwell who goes on to state his book should not be used to claim their are no differences between Merauke Greens and Australian Greens.

I also sent Greg pictures of Obees Greens. You can read his comments re these as well.

I will not ague with Obee any more and take up valuable time with a person who ignores all facts just for financial gains. I have nothing to gain by telling the truth re his snakes. I am not trying to have people buy mine over his. I DONT BREED THEM ANY MORE thanks to OSea. I am simply alerting people that these are not what he is claiming. However, please also remember that as no one has bred Aussie Greens for years, Buckleys line is the only safe one to buy if you want these beautiful snakes without fear of them being confiscated in the future.

To the many people who sent me PM's of support on this issue and urged me to continue with the debate. Thanks. I think people with any intelligence can easily make up there own minds after reading the facts I have supplied, compared to emontinal insults thrown at me.


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## bigguy (May 16, 2004)

I will try again with the attachments. Hope they work this time. I told I can not work PC's.


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## bigguy (May 16, 2004)

Still not attaching. Slateman junior has been contacted and hopefully by this afternoon, the problem will be solved and the letters can be attached.


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## herpnadel (May 16, 2004)

hey all,
To be honest today is the first time i have read this thread 
I will admit i know harrdly anything about gtp as i have never had any and probly wont for a long time and i have only been in the reptile game for 4years but everyone i have talked to about reptiles have told me bob (bigguy) is the man to talk to about reptiles if they dont know how to answer my ques and thats what i have done anytime i have ask him something he has got back to me asap with everything i needed to know and even a little more 
I belive Bob would know what he is talking abouting in regards to gtp due to havin 20 yrs exp that is a long time
im not saying obee doesnt have knowledge about the gtp and where they come from but bob has raised very good points about yours and where they have come from and has backed up everything he has said 
im not trying to disrespect obee or bob or anyone else because i dont know them and therfore have no right to say anything
just thought i would say something and it is up to you if you wanna listen or ignor me either is ok with me
once again i am pretty new to the reptile game compaired to alot of you
Mark


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## bigguy (May 16, 2004)

I am trying a way that David Ludtz suggested. Hopes this works.

If it does heres Greg Maxwell's rely that states do not use his book to say the Merauke and Cape yorks have no differences, and take special note of his comments re Obees pictures I sent him. Of cause Obee will probably say Gregs wrong as well. What would Greg know anyway, he only wrote the first book on these snakes afterall.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Greg Maxwell 
To: Snaketails 
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: Green pythons
Hi Bob,

I'm sorry to hear that my book is being used (inadvertently or intentionally) to market various color forms of green tree pythons as locality or race specific. The chapter in my book on wild race descriptions was intended as a general overview of the species and was based on the available information I had, and on generally accepted phenotype descriptions. I made it abundantly clear that specific claims of race or locality MUST be documented or they are nearly worthless. I have fought long and hard against those here in the US making bogus claims merely to sell animals, and it comes as no surprise to me that you are apparently having to do the same thing. It must be stated that my book is a popular account (not a scientific study) that focuses mainly on the captive husbandry and breeding of GTPs. It should definitely not be used to bolster the locality claims of animal dealers!

Here is a statement that you can use for your discussion forum:

"The Complete Chondro is a popular-style book that focuses primarily on the captive husbandry and breeding of Morelia viridis in the United States. The chapter on race and locality typing was included for general informational purposes, and was not intended as an authoritative statement about taxonomic or phenotypic issues. I believe that overall, the text is accurate and useful, but it should not be used to substantiate locality claims by animal dealers. Any specific race or geographic locality claim MUST be accompanied with verifiable documentation or it is nearly meaningless. Identifying various specimens based on outward appearance is highly speculative, and buyers and sellers of green tree pythons do so mostly out of wishful thinking. Of course, there are some legitimate locality chondros in collections and breeding programs, but these claims must be based on sound data for the founder animals, not some reptile dealer's opinion. My book should not be used as a proof reference that no differences can be established between PNG, Merauke, or Cape York specimens." Greg maxwell


As far as identifying the animals in the photos you sent, I have seen dozens if not hundreds that look very similar. These have been identified as Aru, PNG "mainland". Again, without any specific data, making anything close to an accurate identification is difficult. I have seen captive produced offspring from Barker-collected Meraukes that can't outwardly be distinguished from the average Aru specimen. I hope this helps.

Take care, 

Greg Maxwell 


And if I am lucky heres the email from David Wilson. This was the first time I had ever heard of Aussie Greens with any sort of Blue Markings as you can read from my post to David. This was discovered after I had posted a thread on Greens that Ad used at the start off this thread. Was I being inconsistant. No. I just learned something new with Davids email. You are always learning. Thats the name of the game. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Wilson" &lt;[email protected]>
To: "Snaketails" &lt;[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Green Tree Pythons


> Bob,
> Yes, I'm doing a phd on green pythons at Iron Range. I'm just about to
> start my second wet season up here with lots of things going on.
> The 80 or so that I have seen have been fairly consistent in their
> patterning. All were light green with a single broken white or yellow line
> of scales along their 'spine'. If individuals had blue patches these were
> small (&lt;5cm) and occurred apparently randomly on the body, with up to
three
> patches on an individual. No big blotches and definitely no lines (of any
> colour - also no triangular coloured scales coming off the spine like from
> some NG specimens). Some also had small blue patches (only a few scales)
on
> their heads. In all other respects these were similar to the normal
> patterning. None of these was anything like the 'blues' that some breeders
> advertise from the US.
> I don't have any good photos of
> chondros with blue patches, but will try this year.
> Sometime before I finish I'd like to have a chat about your chondro
> experiences. Perhaps next year when I come out of the jungle.
> Cheers, Dave
>
>
> At 06:09 PM 20/09/2003 +1000, you wrote:
> >David,
> >
> >I was speaking to Tim at Ultimate the other day and he told me about your
> >reseach on the GTP's at Iron Range.
> >
> >I have been involved with Aussie Greens for nearly 20 years. I currently
> >own 1 male, and know of only another 6 in private collections in
> >Australia. All I have seen over the last 20 years shared the same
> >background colour and paterning. That is a lighter green colour with
> >either yellow or white spots spread out along their backbone. I have yet
> >to see one from Australia which was covered in Blue blotches or lines.
> >> >
> >If you had any pic's of these blue marked specimens, I would love to see
them.
> >
> >My male was origionally bred by Rob Bredl. The parents were collected
> >under permit by his father Joe from Iron Range. Of the
> >2 clutches Robby bred only a few are alive today.
> >
> >I have attached a pic of my male, which is the typical type of Aussie GTP
> >that I have seen.
> >
> >Regards
> >Bob Withey
> >Australian Reptile Displays

Oh, and my very last word on this subject. Obee stated that the picture of my Aussie Green had blue markings, and then inferred mine must be from Southern PNG as well. . Everyone, go back and look at the picture I attached to my thread. If you can see blue blotches or lines on that snake you have better eyesight than me. Keep throwing the mud Obee, but I am affraid the evidence just keeps on mounting against you.

Sooner or later, you are just going to have to bite the bullet and admit yours are not pure Australians as they have PNG bloodlines as even you admitted knowing about. Advertise them truthfully. That is Green Pythons with legally imported PNG bloodlines which are absolutly safe from confiscations.

By your own reasoning that Meraukes are Australian, than every other PNG Green in Australia is also a Aussie Type, so therefore theirs are all legal to. So why advertise yours are the only safe ones to buy. You cant have it both ways, if you base it just on DNA and the difference is not big enough for a court of law, then every PNG Green in Australia is an Aussie type so everyones is legal as well. Great aguement.


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## Slateman (May 16, 2004)

I am learnig a lot in this topic. Thank you again Bigguy and obee for this great debate with out dirty tactics. Looks like you bought have different opinion. I am sure that most of people after reading all the materials you guys presented , (at least one party did),are able to build their own opinion on this subject.


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## Dicco (May 16, 2004)

What a delightful little topic this has been.


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## Rina (May 16, 2004)

Greetings guys, 
I have been caught up with family life of late and have now had a chance to catch up with the "discussions" that have been going on this thread. Must say that this topic is one that has been very informative, particularly given the Amnesty at present, beyond just GTP info.
I must say that the moderaters of this thread have done this site credit in allowing the thread to flow the way it has without any bias - well done guys. It is possible to have a differing of opinions and not have to be totally PC about the whole thing and this is a fairly emotive subject.
I have just a few observations I would like to throw in about my feelings on this subject to date, please bear with me.

Ad, did you truly think that by challenging Obee on his animals you weren't going to get a response? Well you got that and more by the sounds of it. My opinion is that by announcing you had 'shared' the photos with your fictionary American friends for comment and that they had all substantianted your claims was just inflammatory. To add insult to your character, you couldnt/wouldn't provide the forum so that those of us could also view the apparent ' expertise' of your American pals!

As for Bob, having no personal experience with the man, I can only comment on my perceptions i have derived from his postings on this thread. You have provided some wonderful facts and interesting information, courtesy of other more experienced people. Great to back up an arguement, but when it comes to the actual, successful hands on experience of breeding, you are no more an expert than obee. Being a brilliant theorist as you well know does not make you a successful breeder or an authority on a subject. It is the practical application of this knowledge, so quote away Bob, because Obee without your 20 years has healthy animals that are getting close to the magic breeding age. 
As for the constant barbs at Obee about the mudslinging, both you and Ad may want to go and have a break and get the dirt out under your fingernails too, as you both shouldn't think that either you or Ad can take the moral high ground in any of this.
At the end of the day Obee has always maintained that his animals have been Deemed(the magic word people) Aussie and openly discussed the parentage way back in the bloodlines of a singular PNG animal yet all you guys seem intent on doing is preferring to name them as PNG animals exclusively. No sour grapes right guys. :wink: As for the e-mail from David which is not current by about about 8 months?? as we actually live up here, personal friends and people in their professional capactiy are definately coming across these animals fairly regulary and all have commented on a degree of blue. Not blue animals, but blue colourations. Must be a touch wearing to have to continually derive all your info out of texts and captive bred animals that you become so cynical to the realities that people are actually coming across GTP's in their natural environment.

At the end of the day, I think ego's have been damaged, and I can think I can vouch for Obee and say his (ego) is doin fine and everyone is entitled to their own opions but in this case one party, unlike the other is supported by the law to keep, breed and sell his legally deemed Aussie GTP's. :lol: 

Regards Rina


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## bigguy (May 17, 2004)

Rina,

Nothing wrong with my ego. As for your comments I cant even see how you can even have one. Do you keep them. No. You are quoting hearsay and thats all. In a court of law you wouldn't even be allowed on a witness stand

Now isn't funny that David Wilson, PHD candidate who with NPWS permission studies and lives with these animals 6 months of the year, yet his observations are deemed wrong by you as "people up your way are regulary finding Greens with degrees of blue" yet David has only found a few with no more then 3 less than 5 cm blotches, and never with blue lines. Has anyone got a picture. No. Oh what a surprise. Hearsay is worthless without proof to back it up. Isn't also funny that every wild Green that was ever photograhped at Cape York and published in books and magazines dont appear to have any blue either. You should have "your people" tell David where to find these ellusive creatures

And your comments that Obee is ahead of me with experience as he currently has 6 17 month old Greens. Dream on. He's never even bred one nor does he even own a true Aussie Green. I have bred them twice, and still own a Aussie Green which Obee never has yet. I think that scores me just slightly higher in experience than Obee. Just because I choose not to purchase PNG Greens as I only choose to keep AUSTRALIAN reptiles, takes nothing away from my experience. Together with Graeme Gow, I have kept Greens longer than anyone in this country.

And how does one "deem to be Australian" with PNG blood. Its a hybrid at best, and resembles(according to a world class expert Maxwell) those found in PNG, not Australia 

At the end of the day Rina you will find I backed my opinion with facts and expert opinions. You on the other hand, like Obee back you case on hearsay. Anyone can say they know people, who know people who have seen things. But without proof such as photo's or live specimens, well its really worthless information that appears to have been created to try and justify PNG greens in this country. Even Obee stated David Wilson was in his opinion an expert on Greens, so I tend to believe his results over"people up there" 

You also state I should clean under my own mails, meaning I was mudslinging. As everyone has quoted I was polite as can be and only every quoted facts. Not one gram of mud ever left my hands.
But you buddy Obee on the other hand resorted to it all the time. He personally attacked my appearance, he attacked my experience, he quoted I was inconsistand(yet I never changed my view even slightly on this thread), he then even challanged my honesty and reputation by stating I have had bad dealings with people which he never backed up. 

Its obvious from your comments that in some way you are very friendly with Obee, and I as well as most people reading your thoughts find your comments very BIAS. For someone to read the entire thread and state I was mudslinging in any way, and to ignore every fact presented by myself and world experts just proves it. I also noticed that same bias from you in another thread regarding myself. Its the oldest trick in the bush. If you can not disprove facts, than try to discredit the people who state them.


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## Simon_Archibald (May 17, 2004)

As far as I'm concerned this is the best thread I've ever read on APS. It has been informative and opened my eyes to a lot of things, not just on the subject of Australian Green Tree Pythons.

It's opened my eyes to the fact that some people just cannot help but argue with experience just for their own gain. Bob has *clearly* and *politely* stated only facts in this matter - none of them ever changing. I've just re-read every single post in this thread and not once does Bob's opinion or facts change.

On the other hand, Obee's statements DID change and really nobody has discredited Obee as much as himself and his unwavering, seemingly starry-eyed sidekick Rina.

This on Page 2 - inferring that Obee's GTP's are definately Australian (why would he pay $30, 000 otherwise???)



obee said:


> I would think in future if anyone is going to purchase gtp's make sure they are aussies or it could become very costly when they come to get 'em.



This on Page 3 - stating they are DEFINATELY Australian GTP's. Obee later goes on to say that he ALWAYS referred to them as "deemed aussie" but here he clearly says "definately aussies"



obee said:


> Ad interesting about your mates comments about it being a sorong animal,proves they don't really know what they are talkin' about as DNA doesn't lie.The clutch was tested ,definately aussie.GUESS THEY DON'T GET TO SEE AUSSIE GTP'S SO WOULD JUST TAKE A STAB AT WHAT IT IS[PUT IT DOWN TO IGNORANCE].



Finally on Page 6 - NOW after much researched and quality fact-filled posts by Bob, Obee changes his story to include that magic word "deemed"



obee said:


> they are deemed aussie with dna proof and the safest line in the country



Slateman said in another thread about Bob being the winner. I'd say not with having all his stock basically stolen by morons years ago. There has in this thread however, been some very sore losers of the debate. I think Obee's animals are beautiful but I couldn't buy from someone who is willing to go to such extraordinary lengths (after facts are provided) to mislead we the public for what will inevitably be his financial gain.

Simon Archibald


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## Rina (May 17, 2004)

Bob,
Lets do this in point form .
*As you do not live up here, just as I have to believe your accounts from Wilson, (who before you take this and run a mile with, I am not saying is incorrect in the info he has given you), you are in no way obliged to take my word about the casual finds friends are having with these animals. Believe me , the indigenous community up here are quite blase about the sightings of GTP's.
*As for your assertion that I stated that Obee is ahead of you in breeding GTP's, grab the glasses and have another go at reading my post again. In terms of expertise in breeding GTP's I no more consider you an expert than Obee because at the end of the day neither of you are at any stage of breeding GTP's at the moment, but just made a referance to all your years involved with the animals and the limited breeding success you had. Your info Bob, not heresay.
*As for the derision you treat the word " Deemed", in a court of law it is the magic word. Sing PNG at the top of your lungs, but DNA has decided the facts of Obee's GTP's and those who choose to purchase any subsequent hatchlings will get the full history of his animals bloodlines. Wonder where we would transport you or others too, if the government decided to deport on the basis of DNA , despite your genetic origins being Aussie many generations back. Once again, hold the vigilante party guys, there was nothing personal here, just a rhetorical question.
*As for alluding to 'my very close friendship' with Obee, you are right but not for the snide manner in which you are so very simperingly trying to write so you don't come off as the bad guy. I won't say anything about that friendship because quite frankly it is none of your business and Obee does not dictate my opinions, but I will say that had you been the one in Obee's shoes when Ad started this thread I would have defended your stance.
As individuals we approach confrontation differently, some choose to stand and face up and others will put the tail between the legs and slink off. I am not supporting either stance as it is a purely personal choice, but Obee had as much to lose in all this as you claim you do.
At the end of the day, I still think you and Obee have many more valuable contributions to make to the world of Aussie Herps.
Regards Rina


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## Rina (May 17, 2004)

> starry-eyed sidekick Rina


Simon,

Believe me three children shakes the stars right out of anyones eyes. If you are charging me as being starry eyed over Obee, guilty as charged because I will take your comment and interpret that as a loyal, not blindly though, friend.
Regards Rina


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## Simon_Archibald (May 17, 2004)

Rina that's all well and good, but why aren't you defending Obee's case about the GTP's now that I have managed to highlight the cracks in his story and his change of heart from "definately" to "deemed". Seems all you can do now is defend your relationship (which is obviously a good thing for both or you) and not defend the issue of GTP's anymore.

Simon Archibald


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## Slateman (May 17, 2004)

I can read lot of silly liketobe expert posting lately on this thread.
I am all the way behind Bob in his argument and I do concider him to be the one who know more about GTP then rest of people who are getting involved in argument.
Simon Archibald you did sum all of it just perfect.
I would advice BOB not to reply to any of the silly confrontations anymore. Bob did put his point clearly, and most of people do have opinion on this subject allready.
Well done Bob and thank you for keeping calm, you have excelent self control.


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## Farkurnell (May 17, 2004)

Just wondering why people seem to be jumping on Bob's bandwagon when they obviously have absolutely nothing to do with what's happening on this thread. It's between Obee and Bob, and up until people started chipping in with their totally unqualified 2 cents worth, this would have to have been the best thread in years here.
There's been valid points from both sides of the table. How about we just sit back and watch and not comment on something we know nothing about?




 (to satisfy those who need it)




Greg.


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## Simon_Archibald (May 17, 2004)

Farkurnell said:


> Just wondering why people seem to be jumping on Bob's bandwagon when they obviously have absolutely nothing to do with what's happening on this thread.



Greg,
I made my post because I thought it simply put into context that one side of the argument was changing their story and the other side was not. It simplified it. Although my comment was biased towards Bob's side, I did not comment on the actual GTP lineage debate. I merely commented on the fact Obee was changing his side of the story. That was my point of bias.

Simon Archibald


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## Farkurnell (May 17, 2004)

But Simon, why did you feel the need to point this out when everyone who's interested has already read the thread and formed their own opinions. Why did you bring it upon yourself to defend Bob? He had been doing really well on his own.
Ya's reckon I'm a trouble maker. Simon, all you've done is inflame things.




Greg.


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## Artie (May 17, 2004)

Farkurnell said:


> There's been valid points from both sides of the table. How about we just sit back and watch and not comment on something we know nothing about?quote]
> 
> Yes, lets.


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## Simon_Archibald (May 17, 2004)

Greg,
I didn't inflame anything. As Bob was thinking of leaving, I offered some PUBLIC support (aside from all the private support I know he's received) to let him know he really is appreciated here.

Simon Archibald


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## lutzd (May 18, 2004)

Due to several requests we have received, we have decided to re-open this thread. However it will be closely monitored, and any abusive posts will result in not only the thread being locked and/or the offending posts deleted, but the offenders may have their membership cancelled if the abuse is bad enough.


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## ad (May 18, 2004)

I dont see the point, the debate was wether obee had 'true aussies' or hybrids. He has admitted this, hence the point has been proved and we can all move on.

What point does obee want to get across now that hasnt been covered and will make people think he has pure aussies. 

Im sure Bob has finished debating, what more can he say that he hasnt already? It is not a 'best herp' contest.


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## lutzd (May 18, 2004)

I tend to agree, ad, but several members felt that locking the thread was wrong, and they felt there was more that could be said. Personally, I don't see what else there is to say on the matter, but we're willing to give it a go. If nothing *productive* comes out of it, we'll lock it again...... or it'll die a natural death.


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## Farkurnell (May 18, 2004)

The momentum is gone now, I don't reckon it'll start up again.



C'mon Obee, give it a kick in the guts mate. :wink:


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## zoe (May 18, 2004)

GREG! GREG! GREG! GREG!


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## Farkurnell (May 18, 2004)

Yes Miss Zoe?


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## zoe (May 18, 2004)

lol i was just going for enthusiasm for ya


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## Farkurnell (May 18, 2004)

Ah, ok. Ta.


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## obee (May 18, 2004)

simon i said deemed when the .... started getting technical. the early posts saying aussie is simply because i'm a 2 finger terror on the keyboard...lol[i don't use capitals either,just laziness nothing more] and it was simply an extra word i missed out.bob you say no mudslinging it was a mudsling by ad that started this [who doesn't keep greens either but is aloud his say] WHERE'S THAT PHANTOM US THREAD AD. YOU KEEP DODGING MATE.

of the many ppl that pm support. someone told me to approach one thing at a time with bob so he can't choose to ignore your questions and then this person said we see it, so put it like this:

IF I HAVE 2 WOMAS AND BREED THEM 1 YEAR
+
I BREED THEM 1 MORE YEAR 
=
2 YEARS BREEDING AND NEVER AGAIN

IF I GET THEM CONFISCATED FOR X AMOUNT OF YEARS
LETS ASSUME 2
I GET SOME BACK AND KEEP THEM FOR 20 YRS
QUESTION:HOW MANY YEARS EXPERIENCE BREEDING DO I HAVE

ANSWER:2 YEARS BREEDING EXPERIENCE
I DIDN'T BREED FOR 20 YRS BECAUSE SAYING SO WOULD BE A .......= LIE
bob says
quote
i have known Bob Buckley for 20 years and have shared breeding details with him over this time as we were both breeding Greens for that same period.unquote 
this was pointed out to me by many ppl i do consider very knowledgable and ppl who aren't.

if you can keep a carpet healthy you can keep an adult gtp so keeping one 15 yr old animal and doing nothing further with the species is no great feat ,getting them from hatchling to adult is the difficult part.
never did i say pure oz even once,why would i.i know they aren't pure but they are deemed oz,as the above borrowed pm shows i would like to demonstrate one change of bobs story.i ? his experience thats all.

if my knockers can't see this as many ppl can from this thread.then i need pursue this nomore.
bob bred them and good on him for that,i envy him. but if and when i breed them
on only my 3rd clutch if getting the hatchlings out i will then have more experienced at breeding greens then bob,which isn't much.


obee


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## obee (May 18, 2004)

wilson e-mail last year, lot happened since then a mate was up there with him 3 weeks ago.
greg was dragged into it and not happy about it.
post bob's e-mail too, greg only heard one biased side and e-mail proves little.
not true about o'shea's stuff brian barnett and stuart barnes have pure aussie greens from bob,gow had his.ppl only dealing with bob had probs.
bob's foto shows 3 clear blue spots left side.
bob claims true oz gtp don't have blue.but he learned they do only last year and then changed his mind he should have known you would think.
bob bred 2 clutches and nothing else so how can he have 20 yrs breeding experience as he says,he can't impossible. 
got 2 males back and kept one old animal for fifteen years so definately no expert.
not taking away confiscation time.
bob says refer to barkers book as pics of pure aussies and proper description.if you read description it states blue all the way through, foto on p125 has an animal with blue labial scales and blue line on side of head,and left corner belly scales are blue[this animal is more blue than 4 of mine. 3 have no blue at all].
bob says quote
They also lack the blue blotches and blue lines over theirbodies that the overseas one have.unquote[when bob wrote this he wasn't aware oz gtp had blue until last year]in my eyes an expert would not make this untrue statement.


obee


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## BROWNS (May 18, 2004)

Obee,it's not that technical,either they are oz gtp or not.O bviously most of us aren't gtp owners,nor are we likely to see one in the wild.Tell us of the colour variation and blue specimens that have been seen.

If you have the full history of this bloodline you know wether it is oz,hybrid,or png?Can you say for sure they are true Aussie greens or are they png blood legally "deemed" Aussie?


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## zoe (May 18, 2004)

> this animal is more blue than 4 of mine. 3 have no blue at all





> I wish I could take a photo to show there real colour,these photo's are very washed out.The grey you see in them is skyblue,the yellow is like jungle yellow and the green is illuminus.Glad you enjoy them.Thankyou sxe.
> 
> 
> obee



hmmmmm no blue eh? :roll:


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## Simon_Archibald (May 18, 2004)

obee said:


> simon i said deemed when the s**t started getting technical. the early posts saying aussie is simply because i'm a 2 finger terror on the keyboard...lol[i don't use capitals either,just laziness nothing more] and it was simply an extra word i missed out.



...but you said "definately aussies". The word "definately" has 10 letters. If your problems with the keyboard were so bad, surely you would've chosen to type the word "deemed" which only has 6 letters. "Deemed" also has less variety of letters so your typing wouldn't have been so stretched to it's limit had you chosen to type "deemed".

Simon Archibald


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## PilbaraPythons (May 18, 2004)

Obee 
Are you trying to say that you believe that Bobs greens weren"t Aussie?
And are you saying that you don't believe O'shea confiscated them at one point?
Cheers Dave Mackintosh


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## obee (May 18, 2004)

simon i did say them , because the 3 foto's posted by sxereturn were of the 2 blue animals that i have. 2 fotos are of one and the other of the animal eating is the second animal.hence them.don't try to dig simon, i have simple answers mate i'm not hiding anything from anyone.

simon when i said definately,it was the second post of mine i think, and yes according to the law they are definately aussies and on my licence as such not png legal. definately, meant they were here in qld on a normal licence like all our other aussie herps.i guess if i new at my second post the thread would go this way,i would have elaborated, in reference to the licence they are kept under.some ppl have them on international licences up here and yes browns as already established there was a sus animal in the background generations back we new that.that is one animal, what was it bred to, an oz ?.so you can say they are png legal if you want but the fact is that can't be proven even by dna. to be png legal,and would be an untrue statement.and as i have pointed out bob doesn't have the experience to say so.


obee


obee


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## obee (May 18, 2004)

no dave i have never said bob's weren't oz or believed they weren't .the only time i did was in reference to bobs foto under his definition of what constituted the look of an oz green.he said they don't have blue, but i can see blue. pointed out to me in a pm.in the foto he posted.i know oz's can have blue,but bob didn't until last year.
if anyone can prove that my animals are 100% png and not of any oz origin, then please tell me.ppl have tried even at a dna level and failed yet bob could in 2 seconds despite not knowing oz's even had blue.the first thing i teach ppl when removing snakes from houses don't judge any snake by it's colour or a foto in a book every herpo knows that.my foto's were in my loungeroom held up in the flouro very pore quality as i said.


obee


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## obee (May 18, 2004)

oh and sorry dave,i do know they were confiscated,ray field told me the whole bob whithey story.at his house one day.


obee


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## Hickson (May 18, 2004)

Obee,

I don't have the book everyone is refering to, so if the answer to the following questions is detailed in the book, then please excuse my ignorance.

Why can't DNA be used to distinguish between Australian and PNG animals and, leading on from that, is Australian/PNG DNA distinguishable from that of other populations?

Hix


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## lutzd (May 19, 2004)

It was probably a bit unfair, unlocking the thread at this stage, as Bob _did_ say he was going to be away for a couple of weeks, so he can't reply. :-( Oh well, maybe he'll reply when he gets back .... Sorry Bob!


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## obee (May 19, 2004)

yes hix my understanding is other races ,by dna, are different from sth png and oz.sth png and oz are indistinguishable as they are so close.close because gene flow would even to this day, to a certain extent be still occurring. previous as oz and sth png were the same landmass both populations would have been one.ppl forget we are talking about an imaginery line .an nt bhp if it moved 100 mts across the qld border would then become a qld bhp.but dna would say they were the same.
red deer swim from png into australian territory[top torres strait islands] this is how close we are to sth png.


obee


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## Pinkie (May 19, 2004)

> oh and sorry dave,i do know they were confiscated,ray field told me the whole bob whithey story.at his house one day.



Ray told me some GTP stories at his house one day too. He is a nice guy. Did you see his chondros Obee?


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## basketcase (May 19, 2004)

i wonder if there wouldve been this big thing about it if the animals in question were $100 acanthophis rugosus - death adders from png


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## obee (May 19, 2004)

basketcase said:


> i wonder if there wouldve been this big thing about it if the animals in question were $100 acanthophis rugosus - death adders from png



yes mate thats a good point,somehow i don't think so.

no pinkie i haven't seen rays gtp's but are mates with dan at billabong and he tells me they are going well.lovely bloke ray very interesting day that one.he locked his keys in the car when we were visiting other herpo's.so to pass the time we chatted gtp's.

obee


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## Pinkie (May 19, 2004)

Lol. Ranger Dan is a champ  "we're awesome" heheh


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## Hickson (May 19, 2004)

obee said:


> yes hix my understanding is other races ,by dna, are different from sth png and oz.sth png and oz are indistinguishable as they are so close.close because gene flow would even to this day, to a certain extent be still occurring. previous as oz and sth png were the same landmass both populations would have been one.ppl forget we are talking about an imaginery line .an nt bhp if it moved 100 mts across the qld border would then become a qld bhp.but dna would say they were the same.
> red deer swim from png into australian territory[top torres strait islands] this is how close we are to sth png.



Obee,

I understand what you're saying, and your reasoning, but I can't agree. 

The last time PNG and OZ were connected was about 18,000 years ago when the world's ocean levels dropped. Since then the PNG and Oz populations have existed in mutual isolation. That's certainly long enough for the populations to differentiate. Genetic studies of Canadian wolves that had been isolated on an island showed that their genetics were distinct from the mainland population. In fact, the researchers were able to calculate how long the wolves had been isolated from the mainland by determining the amount of genetic drift. And they'd been separated only a hundred or so years - so the Chondros 18,000 years should be a cinch to play around with. 

Boigu Island (I think that's it's name) is Australia's northernmost point, only 6 km from PNG mainland. For chondros from Australia to move between Oz and PNG, they would have to swim between islands, and then across 6 kms of water. And for them to have a major effect on the genetics of PNG populations, there would have to be a significant number making the crossing quite regularly.

I just want to point out that I'm not having a go at anyone here, but if the two populations are genetically the same, then I'm very curious as to why.

Maybe somebody knows someone who is (or has been) researching the genetics of the species as a whole. If so, I'd love to speak to them. 

Sorry if this got too technical and really boring for the majority of APS members. I tend to go on a bit sometimes. Especially when I don't understand something. :? 

Hix


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## jimmy_the_kid (May 19, 2004)

i just want 1they r so kewl


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## obee (May 19, 2004)

great points hix and very valid statements.i work with 7 torres strait islanders.boigu,yam,darnley,badu and one saibai elder.gtps are known to them all.the old saibai man has told me they are of tribal significance to him and his family and to hurt one is a bad thing.he complained to me that young fellas had killed 2 on his visit home last year.flood time in png he said sends flood rubbish miles out from the islands and they have found gtp's amongst other animals, on flood rubbish.he says the currents move in a southerly direction so the idea of an oz gtp going to sth png or torres strait islands is highly unlikely,practically impossible.as far as island hopping by swimming i doubt it very much.so the gene flow from what they tell me would only be one way.i have png carved timber masks that these guys have brought back to me washed up on east coast cape beaches.they can tell by the carvings sometimes who even did them they call them rubbish ,amazing. i asked him today whether any of the gtp's he see's are blue and he said", no, and then somteimes but they are the brightest of green i have ever seen." he is 65 but looks like he is 40.
wolves are completely different to reptiles and after 100 yrs they are genetically different to the mainlanders , because that is a closed gene pool and mammals are less tolerent of inbreeding than reptiles.wolves would be expected to show a significant change and quickly.
18000 yrs[i thought it was longer] is still only a spec in time and if the oz and png populations were mutually isolated then dna would show, you would expect.but the dna can't seperate them maybe another 18000 yrs.the original inhabitants of the torres strait say the movement isn't intentional,not often, but still natural.they have found live pigs even a human body out to sea during flood times out of site of land.


obee


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## toxinologist (May 19, 2004)

According to Rawlings & Donnelan (2003) their mtDNA studies on specimens from limited areas of New Guinea and Australia suggest that there may be two distinct species (northern PNG and southern PNG/Australia) although they concede sampling is insufficient to conclusively demonstrate this.

The levels of sequence divergence between southern PNG snakes and Australian snakes was very low. Like _Morelia amethistina_, these snakes dispersed into Australia from PNG - probably quite recently according to estimates - and by using transient land bridges that also enabled the migration of other Papuan flora and fauna - rather than by swimming or island hopping ...

If anyone wants to read the Rawlings & Donnelan paper and get the facts, it can be downloaded from my website:

http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu2/rawlings2003.pdf

Interestingly one of their concluding observations is that low levels of breeding success among Australian collections may be due to people having attempted breedings between northern PNG and southern PNG/Australian animals.

I must say that I personally find it baffling that people are having trouble maintaining these snakes. Mine thrive in a well planted vivarium without any species tricks or gimmicks, and the only way to prevent breeding would be to get rid of the snakes ... :shock: 

Cheers


Dave


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## Hickson (May 19, 2004)

Thanks Obee,

I hadn't even thought about the floods. 

And I know the genetics between mammals and reptiles is different, but the principles should be the same. Just different variables.

Which is why they're called variables. :lol:

Hix


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## zoe (May 19, 2004)

you know, as a half joke half serious thing i said to a friend yesterday, wouldnt it be funny if you could give a gtp to a relatively inexperienced herper (like myself lol) and let them take care of it like they would a carpet maybe (with obviously correct humidity etc etc) and it would thrive? sometimes i wonder if these things get babied too much, for eg: why, when working at the vet for 2 1/2 years, did i find that the animals that were babied to buggery were the ones that had the most problems? one particular family had 2 dogs and you name the problem, they had or have it. i know dogs are different to herps but i still cant help but wonder. americans dont seem to have as much troubles with gtps as we do...but hey, who wants to take that chance with a $5000 snake?

sorry if that sounds like a really dumb thing to say but it sorta makes a weird kind of sense to me lol


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## africancichlidau (May 19, 2004)

Me too


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## toxinologist (May 19, 2004)

Yes Zoe ...

To be really honest with you I think people are babying the poor little yellow buggers to death ... I mean for God's sake people these things THRIVE in backyards in parts of Port Moresby ... :shock: 

Dave


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## obee (May 19, 2004)

toxinologist said:


> According to Rawlings & Donnelan (2003) their mtDNA studies on specimens from limited areas of New Guinea and Australia suggest that there may be two distinct species (northern PNG and southern PNG/Australia) although they concede sampling is insufficient to conclusively demonstrate this.
> 
> obee says
> hi david where have you been.thought you would be here a lot sooner.hows things?i have no knowledge of rawlings & donnelan work but your post confirms what i said in the last post.
> ...


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## Hickson (May 19, 2004)

They 'thing' like you?

Lol

hix


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## obee (May 19, 2004)

zoe i agree with you totally and have been saying that for years about k9's as far as babying.i have 5 hunting dogs and have had hunting dogs as long as i could remember.when i was younger if one of my dogs didn't get to me quick enough when i called their was something wrong and off to the vet i would go.rediculous.the vet said to me you are great for business cause you bring your dogs in even when there is nothing wrong...lol
treat em mean keep em thriving was the attitude i went into the gtp plan with and one prolapse is all i have had,absolutely no special treatment and they have powered.


obee


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## obee (May 19, 2004)

thought you would like that one hix,think like me...lol


obee


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## obee (May 19, 2004)

one behavior you would have seen many times david is when assist feeding hatchlings[if required]they do their very convincing i'm dead impersonation.so affective i thought the first time it happened it was dead for certain.15 mins later still upside down,no movement at all,limp in the hands.i put it back in the enclosure and 30 mins later it was back up on the perch.this is a horrible thought,i know a few ppl that experienced the same thing.hatchlings died so into the freezer.


obee


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## bigguy (May 21, 2004)

Obee,

The only flaw in my thread is that I used the term breeder when comparing myself with Bob Buckley. I should have used 20 years experience, as I used in all my other threads. One slipup only by myself does not change the facts I stated.

Now back to your aguement. Just because DNA can not seperate the 2 Greens, does not mean PNG's are Aussie Greens. Now to put a real wedge in your aguement, the Australian Green Python has now been described as a seperate sub species from its PNG cousins.

The description states that this new sub species is only found in Australia, and quite clearly states does not include any Greens from PNG. The author of this decription stated also, that he delayed publishing till the Buckley case was over, as it may have been used against him.

Now people with PNG type greens can no longer say there is no difference between Aussie and PNG types and hide behind the fact DNA shows little difference. Unless both parents are Australian, how could they possably be "deemed Australian" now that they are descibed as different.

As for Gregs comments. They were not given in reply to a one sided arguement. Heres another email I have just rec'd from Greg stating he will be discussing the differences between the 2 types when he finally does a revision of his Chondro book.



Hi Bob,

I hope it helps, but like you I sort of doubt it will do much good. We fight this kind of stuff continually over here, and most of these dealers ignore us and the facts, and keep placing ads making all kinds of bogus locality claims. I fully intend to comment on this issue (of Aussie greens vs. PNG) when the book is revised. The first printing is almost sold out, and I'm not sure if the publisher is going to simply reprint or do a full fledged revision. Both are being discussed. A revised edition will almost certainly be done at some point, but it might be a couple years from now.


Take care,

Greg Maxwell 

Again readers, please note I am not attacking OBEE in any way. I again am just quoting facts. Read them all and make up your own as to wether his could be called Australian, PNG's or Hybrids between the 2 races.

Remember also, there is little DNA difference between Carpet Python types, but if I cross a Darwin with a Inland it is now a hydrid and would not be called either of these species by any reputable breeders. How then can Obee still claim that his are Australian, when he admits a PNG type is in the breeding and Aussie Greens are now a seperate sub species.

Bob


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## zoe (May 21, 2004)

> the vet said to me you are great for business cause you bring your dogs in even when there is nothing wrong...lol



fair enuf but what i found with these dogs was that there WAS something wrong...but it only seemed to happen to the dogs that got babied to buggery...other people with the same breed dog wouldnt have the same problems! treat em like a man and they'll be tough like a man lol. i have no idea why...maybe it could have something to do with how protected/sheltered they are as young? coming across diff bugs and viruses etc while young builds up a sort of immunity doesnt it? im talking dogs and humans here i know but maybe the same theory could be applied to snakes?

it probably sounds really dumb but why again do US breeders/hobbyists seem to not have anywhere near the calibre of problems that we have???


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## Slateman (May 21, 2004)

bigguy said:


> Obee,
> 
> Remember also, there is little DNA difference between Carpet Python types, but if I cross a Darwin with a Inland it is now a hydrid and would not be called either of these species by any reputable breeders. How then can Obee still claim that his are Australian, when he admits a PNG type is in the breeding and Aussie Greens are now a seperate sub species.
> 
> Bob



Well with all my respect to obee that is something to thing about.
Is one of my snakes which was cross breed (diamond x coastal carpet) diamond python?
Looks like it is if I look at the situation as obee. I will be happier to sell him as diamond, or call the snake diamond phyton.
When I think about it and compare my situation with Obee's situation, I do understand him. 
It is only natural that he have his opinion set his way. 
I would like to say here that I do not have in any waay anything against obee. I think that he must be extremelly experienced herper, and I am not enywhere close to him regarding my experiance in herpetology field. My opinion on this subject was formed by this thread.


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## obee (May 22, 2004)

bigguy said:


> The only flaw in my thread is that I used the term breeder when comparing myself with Bob Buckley. I should have used 20 years experience, as I used in all my other threads. One slipup only by myself does not change the facts I stated.
> 
> YOU SAID IY A COUPLE OF TIMES BOB VERY MISLEADING,SO NOW IT HAS BECOME A SLIPUP,I NEW YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE BREEDING EXPERIENCE.I NEVER SAID PURE AUSSIE BUT YOU KEPT SAYING I DID.
> THEIR WAS MORE THAN ONE SLIPUP.HOW COME YOU DIDN'T KNOW OZ GTP'S COULD HAVE BLUE?
> ...


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## Greebo (May 22, 2004)

five small monkeys



(this IS the never-ending story thread isnt it?)


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## obee (May 22, 2004)

seems like it greebs.


obee


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## bigguy (May 22, 2004)

Obee,

So you aguement is that all Carpet Python subspecies and all Childrens subspecies are also invalid as their DNA is also similar, just like the Greens.

That will shock the rest of the herp world who recognise these sub species.


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## BROWNS (May 22, 2004)

I'd like to hear about wild ones found in Oz with blue laterals on the head like on yours obee.

A friend of mine has seen greens right on the beach in sclerephryl (spelling?)forest .


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## obee (May 22, 2004)

browns if you want to see a pure oz green bred from iron range collected parents[with a blue lateral line through the eye] look at the last foto of greens in barkers book.bob asked me to refer to barkers. then everyone read barkers oz gtp description.he[barker] flips from oz and sth png in the description the whole way through,description on looks might i add not dna.
bob i would say a stimpson from the pilbarra and one from mt carbine[nth qld] although classed as the same subspecies would be most definately different in there dna.we are talking about opposite ends of the country.thousands of miles apart.we are not talking anywhere near the distance with gtp's and as david williams pointed out oz gtp's came from sth png by way of landbridge not to long ago,not long enough that dna can say they are different.
as far as referring to raymond hosers redescribing our pythons,suggests you are digging for anything now bob.using hosers account of species names is like me saying by 5.00pm this afternoon i declare all jungles as morelia spilota obeei and you all should change your record books accordingly.i'm just going to call npws to let them know...lol....see how ridiculous that arguement is.the governing bodies don't recognize hoser,you must be the only other person in the country who does bob.so that arguement is out the door.


obee





obee


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## ad (May 22, 2004)

Obee,
Why are you spending so much time trying to convince us your gtps are from Iron Range when you have admitted that they had a 'suspect' grandparent, which you now dont even call 'suspect' it is now a definite png as stated by you.
I bet all this wasnt said in the court case that deemed them.
Regards
Ad


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## toxinologist (May 22, 2004)

G'day all,

I have to say that since I know both Shane and Bob that I have no desire to be dragging into the middle of their current [email protected]*tfight.

That being said, I nearly choked on my coffee this morning when I read Bob's post about Ray Hoser's incredibly lame attempt last year to steal the thunder from Rawlings and Donnellan (2003) by presuming to guess at their results, and jump in first with a _"name"_ for the the Australian _Morelia viridis_ ...

That's right, just like he has done previously with Ulrich Kuch's _Pseudechis_ work, Ken Aplin's _Acanthophis_ etc, Hoser thought he'd beat legitimate scientists to the punch by erecting a name for the Australian chondros - having assumed that Rawlings and Donnellan would do exactly that themselves. Hoser's motive's: simply to force the real scientists to have to adopt his name under current rules of nomenclatural priority laid down by the ICZN.

For the benefit of people here, the following is the _"diagnosis"_ of the Australian _Morelia viridis_ population provided by Hoser (2003) in _"Five new Australian pythons"_ Newsletter of the Macarthur Herpetological Society Issue 40, August 2003:4-9:



> DIAGNOSIS
> 
> _Chondropython viridis shireenae_ sp. nov. are the only Green Pythons (_C. viridis_) found on mainland Australia and can be separated from all other _C. viridis_ on this basis.
> 
> ...



Essentially all Hoser is saying is that _"they live in Australia, therefore they are different"_ - a claim that has absolutely no scientific basis, but which is a fairly typical ploy used by Hoser in many of his so-called _"scientific papers"_.

Vague comments about Australian snakes having white vertebral markings and that this is a valid diagnostic criteron since


> those from elsewhere do not always have this trait


 are absolute rubbish. A characteristic that is proposed as a means of differentiating closely related species MUST be uniform and distinctive - white vertebral markings - by Hoser's own admission are clearly not.

Later Hoser says


> Comparative DNA testing can separate Australian _C. viridis shireenae_ from other _C. viridis_.



Given that his paper contains absolutely NO DNA DATA whatsoever, and given that he has NO SCIENTIFIC QUALIFICATIONS in molecular biology, zoology or anything else that might enable him to carry out any form of DNA studies whatsoever - not that he makes any claim to having done so ... this sort of red herring statement is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to bluff his readers into thinking he has carried out DNA analyses of some sort.

The DNA evidence that does count is that provided by Rawlings & Donnellan (2003). Their study was carried out according to accepted standard of scientific practice, and the results were subjected to peer review (scrutiny from suitably qualified scientists working in the same disciplines) prior to being published in an internationally recognised scientific journal - not (and my apologies to McArthur Herp Society Members) some backyard newsletter cobbled together for the benefit of a small group of reptile enthusiasts.

Getting back to me nearly choking on my coffee ... the reason I did so is because this is the first time that I have ever seen Bob try to use Hoser's material to win an argument. 

Bob - what the hell has come over you mate :?: 

You are renowned for being a herpetoculturalist who sees through Ray's bullshit - and you are respected for that. Don't turn to the darkside now mate. :wink: 

To both of you (Shane and Bob) I have to say that this little bunfight, while entertaining is very unnecessary. Green pythons arn't anything special - I chuck them off the roads in PNG all the time. I mean let's get real guys - yes they are colourful little beasties, and down here the errr... suckers ... ooops sorry I mean keepers do seem willing to part with huge slabs of cash to own one ... but let's look at this realistically from a prospective pet owners perspective:

*1. They ARE LOUSY PETS - folks these things are nasty!!! :shock: They'll tear your face off as soon as look at you ... they are intractably defensive and cannot be handled ... freehandling taipans is safer!

2. See (1) above.*

Personally I've never paid more than K10 (A$4.00) for one ... and only then simply to save it from a cooking pot and release the poor bugger back into the scrub ... the only ones I bother to keep are injured animals (sadly quite a few) in need of TLC ... and even they are ungrateful psychotic maniacs :shock: 

The more experienced people on these forums have a responsibility to TRY and present a responsible, courteous common face to new and upcoming keepers. That means me, Bob, Shane and quite a few others. Guys we don't always achieve that goal, but let's at least make an effort eh? :wink: 

People here don't need to see squabbling, they need to see constructive posts that give them the knowledge needed to keep their animals under the best possible conditions and in the best possible health. 

Cheers


Dave


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## dobermanmick (May 22, 2004)

> People here don't need to see squabbling, they need to see constructive posts that give them the knowledge needed to keep their animals under the best possible conditions and in the best possible health.


although it has been an enjoyable thread to read i agree with Dave 
This could go on forever !


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## Slateman (May 22, 2004)

And looks like will go for ever dobermanmick.
It is interesting to read all this posts. Different people, different wiew point.
I was surprice to hear from David that freehandling taipans is safer then to handle GTP.
We little people who have no chance to experiance any contact with chondros, can just read all of this and gain some knowledge from the experts.


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## dobermanmick (May 22, 2004)

> I was surprice to hear from David that freehandling taipans is safer then to handle GTP


Yes Slatey 
If i cant freehandle one easily i dont know if i would bother having one 
I love them but i also know i want to be able to handle my pythons easily so i might have to find out a bit more about that anyway it will be quite a few years before i could have them


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## zoe (May 22, 2004)

people always have differing opinions on their temperaments...i have had people tell me they've handled them with no aggression at all...then the opposite as well. i luv them to death but dont know if i would really want one if i couldnt cuddle it. ah bugger that...i'll take 3 please :lol:


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## bigguy (May 22, 2004)

David,

I agree in all your comments regarding Raymonds descriptions, both past and present. But as you said the other night at the Sofar meeting, even though he has no valid scientific evidence to back most of his descriptions, his names are valid till someone prooves otherwise.

I did not know that Donnellan was preparing a paper on this subject, but I did know Richard Wells was in the process of describing the Australian Greens, and he was not happy when Raymond said he was about to publish his own paper on this species. Trouble was according to Richard, was that Raymond didnt publish anything for nearly the next 2 years after he advised Richard.

So untill someone either validates or disproves Raymonds descriptions , as you said yourself his descriptions stand as badly prepared as they are. Most of Raymonds descriptions are slowly being accepted, like it or not.

I personally fell that Richards paper would have been presented in a more scientific manner, but alas Raymond beat him too it as weak as it was. There's really nothing anyone can do at this point in time accept to acknowledge it has been descibed till proven otherwise.

Bob


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## bigguy (May 22, 2004)

Hi all,

I just received a PM from one of the moderators who has suggested to me no matter what facts I present, Obee will never be convinced and that the best option is to end this thread which could go on forever.

I have presented my facts re my opinions, Obee has presented his. Its now up to the general community to make their own judgement, based on the arguements presented by both sides.

From the viewing counter, it appears to have been a most popular thread with over 6000 hits. Anyway, this is all I have to say on the matter and hope to see you on another thread some time.

BigGuy


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## toxinologist (May 22, 2004)

Bob,

Apart from the glaringly obvious fact that Hoser failed to provide a description for his supposed subspecies that complies with Article 13.1 of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature and that consequently Hoser's _Chondropython viridis shireenae_ is a nomen nudem (an invalidly constituted taxa) in the first place; my whole point is that the work done by Rawlings & Donnellan (2003) entirely disproves any claim by Hoser or anyone else that Australian _Morelia viridis_ are a different species... :!: 

They soundly demonstrate that on the basis of mtDNA sequence alignments for two different genes the southern PNG and Australian specimens are indistinguishable, and on this basis are one and the same species. Northern PNG snakes are another thing altogether ... 

Read the paper... the link is in one of my posts above.

Cheers

Dave


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## Guest (May 22, 2004)

David Wrote:
The more experienced people on these forums have a responsibility to TRY and present a responsible, courteous common face to new and upcoming keepers. That means me, Bob, Shane and quite a few others. Guys we don't always achieve that goal, but let's at least make an effort eh? 

Modesty is a virtue


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## Slateman (May 22, 2004)

bigguy said:


> I have presented my facts re my opinions, Obee has presented his. Its now up to the general community to make their own judgement, based on the arguements presented by both sides.
> 
> 
> BigGuy


I totaly agree


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## Farkurnell (May 22, 2004)

bigguy said:


> Hi all, I just received a PM from one of the moderators who has suggested to me no matter what facts I present, Obee will never be convinced and that the best option is to end this thread which could go on forever.




Good to see the Moderators staying neutral.







Greg


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## lutzd (May 22, 2004)

Greg, the moderator in question was me. What I was trying to do was to end the pointless continuation of this thread. 

I know very little about the subject, but after reading the arguments presented, my *personal* feelings were that Bobs arguments were the more persuasive. I could see this going on forever, and offered a suggestion as a private member of the site, not as a moderator. That suggestion was basically as pointed out above, and reflect my own feelings; that is, the arguments have been presented, let the members make up their own mind, based on the evidence presented by all parties. 

Do you really think the argument is going to be resolved with further input? I don't! 

I also said that it was a suggestion, and was up to him if he wanted to keep it going. I also pointed out that I thought it was pointless, as Obee was not going to agree with anything he said. Perhaps I should have said something similar to Obee, if I wanted to remain neutral. However, as I said, it was not a moderators request, it was a *personal* suggestion.


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## africancichlidau (May 22, 2004)

And, for what it is worth I agree with you 100% Lusty. Don't let our grumpy greg get to ya mate


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## Greebo (May 23, 2004)

big red car


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## Simon_Archibald (May 23, 2004)

drives very fast


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## Slateman (May 23, 2004)

I am sorry that I said that Bob wan the argument. I should not say that at all. 
I expressed my opinion on that confrontation between Bob and obee and as moderator I should shut up.
I think that most of you did had opinion on that GTP argument, and I hope that My post about Bob wining it did not interfeer with it to much. 
After all as some people did said on this and others forums, I am old man who knows just little about things.
Again to all members, I am sorry.


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## Slateman (May 23, 2004)

This is PM I send to Obee.

Hi Obee
. I did apologyzed in chondro thread about me to take publicly side in your and Bob's argument. I hope that people will understand. I know Bob for long time and I do not know you. That is why I was influanced to beleive Bobs story and explanation.
I am still on Bob side of the argument and I know that you have different opinion. But as Moderator, I should not post that comment in forum.
We all do sometimes things we regret later. This was the one I wish I can take back.


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## Greebo (May 23, 2004)

and thus Slateman spoke to the multitude and said "I have made a mistake and I am sorry."
a great sigh of relief went up from the people and they knew it was good
thus on this day, the 23rd of May 2004 did APS turn over a new leaf and no person ever whinged,critised,complained,grumbled again
amen


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## dobermanmick (May 23, 2004)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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