# Question 3: String him up it will teach him a lesson.



## glebo (Aug 3, 2013)

Hello again - thanks for all those who are responding. This is my third f five questions and I can see there is some debate and consternation.

I was at an expo in Queensland a few years ago and there were a few thousand patrons there including the Parks and Wildlife Service. This Expo had been running very successfully for a few years and each year the conditions of the expo permit were becoming more extreme. In fact the year that I am talking about the expo was split into two sections, one that allowed the display of critters and the sale of everything except wildlife, and the other section with a separate address that allowed the sale of critters. This outlines a series of crazy stuff on its own, however at one stage in the day a young fellow who would have been around 13 and not a herp or connected with herps that anyone could figure out arrived at the expo. He had been dropped off by mum and was keen to immerse himself in his passion in life – reptiles. He had a bit of a problem though because on the way to the expo he had found his first ever ‘wild’ reptile. In fact he had picked up a bluetongue lizard from the middle of the road and was proud as punch that he had ‘saved’ it from death by car. He was, as a first duty in getting t the expo asking anyone he could see in authority how he could deal with it. He was completely naïve and just seeking answers to this question. Well I saw two things happen. First some of the herpers he asked turned a nasty shade of white and tried to distance themselves from this poor kid. Then as predicted the ‘authorities’ got wind of the kid with the illegal reptile and moved in. They wanted to grill him and had just started when a few people stepped in to help, including the mayor of the city and I think the opposition spokesperson for Parks and Wildlife and others. Where is this young fellow now and what are his feelings toward helping native fauna and particularly reptiles - I don’t know, but the experience may have changed his passion. 

From the above moderately common occurrence this is my question: From some of the answers to the two questions I have asked on this forum some/many of us see ourselves as criminals who cannot be trusted with wildlife! Surely as in the above case shouldn’t Parks also view us as criminals and no matter which state, shouldn’t they uphold the laws as they stand on reptiles no matter what the intentions of people trying to ‘save’ native fauna? 

Regards
Gavin Bedford


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 3, 2013)

Maybe they could start by prosecuting people who blatantly kill snakes and other reptiles


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## champagne (Aug 3, 2013)

most of us caught and kept blue tongues, bearded dragons and carpet pythons ect as kids. More reptiles are killed from habitat destruction then a few thousand people keeping wild caught reptiles or reptiles off license.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 3, 2013)

Why do you need a licence for an animal u can buy from a pet shop. Would a few people here and there taking blue tongues or beardies from the wild (like we did for twenty yrs prior to amnesty) affect native populations enough to declare it a crime punishable by imprisonment. Would we in the hobby care for and house our animals differently whether they were wild caught or captive bred, if you needed a licence and had to pay a fee each year would people still have budgies and parrots, where does our licence fee go, is it spent back in the reptile area. Would it reduce or increase the price of certain animals if wild caught was available. If you do save an animal on a construction site should we relocate it into an unfamiliar area and genetically different animals or introduce it into our hobby/pet trade


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## Ramsayi (Aug 3, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> Why do you need a licence for an animal u can buy from a pet shop. Would a few people here and there taking blue tongues or beardies from the wild (like we did for twenty yrs prior to amnesty) affect native populations enough to declare it a crime punishable by imprisonment. Would we in the hobby care for and house our animals differently whether they were wild caught or captive bred, if you needed a licence and had to pay a fee each year would people still have budgies and parrots, where does our licence fee go, is it spent back in the reptile area. Would it reduce or increase the price of certain animals if wild caught was available. If you do save an animal on a construction site should we relocate it into an unfamiliar area and genetically different animals or introduce it into our hobby/pet trade



I'm not quite sure what you mean with your post.Are you of the opinion that you should be able to take from the wild indiscriminately? 

If it was open slather then it wouldn't be a few people here and there.It would be open season taking anything and everything that people could get their hands on to make a quick buck.You would also have others who would go after the rarer type species to make even more money perhaps even to the detriment of those species.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 3, 2013)

How would it be open slaver, how would you make a quick buck, if its common its cheap if its easy to catch then its cheap hence not worthwhile spending money to catch them. Most people want hatchies or juvies how many juvies have you caught. What rarer types are you meaning, maybe GTP well there not easy for everyone to go catch, maybe u mean coastals there $50 what's the point, if they allowed collection and some Oenpelliensis were found would this be good or bad in your book. Before amnesty those that wanted reptiles wild caught them and I didn't see any extinctions due to hobbyists


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## mcloughlin2 (Aug 3, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> How would it be open slaver, how would you make a quick buck, if its common its cheap if its easy to catch then its cheap hence not worthwhile spending money to catch them. Most people want hatchies or juvies how many juvies have you caught. What rarer types are you meaning, maybe GTP well there not easy for everyone to go catch, maybe u mean coastals there $50 what's the point, if they allowed collection and some Oenpelliensis were found would this be good or bad in your book. Before amnesty those that wanted reptiles wild caught them and I didn't see any extinctions due to hobbyists



The market price for reptiles is now much higher then back 30 years ago. Sure it isn't your average hobbiest that will go collecting GTPs in the wild but someone with the know-how going on a collecting trip could decimate local populations. I don't know where you come from (financially wise) but any reptile at $50 a pop would sound good to me. That's about double what your average Joe earns an hour. Certainly in the right areas finding a coastal every couple of hours wouldn't be too far fetched and you're doing what you love.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 3, 2013)

What stops people doing it now, if I own two coastals and I go collecting and find 13 then I add to my licence as though I bred them then I sell them all for fifty bucks in two weeks time, on your licence you don't need there age or there sex just there genus therefore when I sell u a coastal its just minus one specimen not a certain one, a loop hole they need to close


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## mcloughlin2 (Aug 3, 2013)

It just makes things that little bit harder, for instance good luck trying to catch any number of hatchling coastals.


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 3, 2013)

That's my point what we have now came from the wild, there is already excess to pet trade requirements so stopping licences doesn't mean rape and pillage of bush. The bird industry no longer has mass licences of every species and I can't recall the last time I saw someone in the bush catching budgies


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## champagne (Aug 3, 2013)

we aren't talking about rare reptiles or allowing people to take wild reptiles legally we are talking about kids catching local common reptiles....


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 3, 2013)

Kids catching local specimens is the same as wild caught, they are both at present illegal


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 3, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> Kids catching local specimens is the same as wild caught, they are both at present illegal



Of course you are correct but could there be an attachment to the legislation that if this was done without malice or intent an under age child could be exempt from prosecution?


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## andynic07 (Aug 3, 2013)

I find it very hard to believe that the powers to be would try to prosecute a kid for catching a wild reptile when there is so many easy adult targets around that they do nothing about. I think I am erring on Pittownboy's side of this discussion as well, what is the harm?


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## GeckoJosh (Aug 3, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> How would it be open slaver, how would you make a quick buck, if its common its cheap if its easy to catch then its cheap hence not worthwhile spending money to catch them. Most people want hatchies or juvies how many juvies have you caught. What rarer types are you meaning, maybe GTP well there not easy for everyone to go catch, maybe u mean coastals there $50 what's the point, if they allowed collection and some Oenpelliensis were found would this be good or bad in your book. Before amnesty those that wanted reptiles wild caught them and I didn't see any extinctions due to hobbyists



There are rare reptiles that are worth money and are much easier to get to than your two examples!


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## Skeptic (Aug 4, 2013)

The little bugger should have been shot at dawn along with his parents! He should have left the animal in it's natural habitat - the freeway. I understand this was just one boy with just one lizard but if everyone pulled an animal off the road, what are we left with? A road without roadkill?? That's not a world I want to live in!


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## borntobnude (Aug 4, 2013)

Yes as a youngster my brother and I would catch, keep for a few months observe ,and release beardies and blue's . We were in constant letter contact with Eric Worrel at the Gosford reptile park and even made a few trips (every time we visited our grandparents, sometimes weekly ) .to see him and gain knowledge -which he and the many staff were always happy to give . Now we have snakes and lizards inside with a colony of bluetongues outside living wild that have been here since we bought the house . The only time we handle these blues is if the are in life threatening situations -ie bird, dog or car attacks (not our dog) . Then we clean them up feed them and release them back to the yard . 
Criminal behaviour ?? maybe , but through the guidance of experienced keepers ,Me, my brother and several friends and neighbours learned to keep and maintain lizards , and this has followed through to our children and brushed off on to some of their friends and relatives 

Maybe they are chasing the real criminals trapping and selling, smuggling our rarer herps that's why you Don't get inspected in your house every year ??? I hope so !!!!


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## borntobnude (Aug 4, 2013)

Skeptic said:


> The little bugger should have been shot at dawn along with his parents! He should have left the animal in it's natural habitat - the freeway. I understand this was just one boy with just one lizard but if everyone pulled an animal off the road, what are we left with? A road without roadkill?? That's not a world I want to live in!



And there ends the history of the history of "The RoadKill Café, You Kill It , We Grill It " :lol:


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## pythonmum (Aug 4, 2013)

Back to the question, which seems to be getting lost here...

Should wildlife authorities enforce the laws regardless of the circumstances and intentions of the person who has 'caught' the reptiles?

short answer: no

Long answer:
I can easily imagine the kerfuffle caused by this boy and his rescued bluetongue. I suspect that he got a harder time from those who had to spend hours on paperwork just to be there than he would have gotten from the wildlife authorities. I would also like to point out that he was an unaccompanied minor, so the authorities and others had no right to come down hard on him for a harmless action that hurt no one.

I don't think that those who administer the regulations are out to monster children who know nothing about reptile keeping. (Perhaps some who write the ridiculous codes feel differently.) Someone should have had the sense to compliment the boy on his caring attitude and then tell him about wildlife rescue groups, as well as give him info on reptile keeping.

The regulations which govern reptile keeping are increasingly complex and there is no consistency between states. The experience in NSW has been very frustrating because the people impacted by legislation were shut out of the final and most important stages when these were formulated. Those who go to the effort of following all regulations become frustrated and frazzled, especially when others give up and 'go off book'.

There are powerful lobbies that want to control animal keeping for many reasons. The most extreme of these believe that it is wrong to keep any captive animal, including farm animals and your pet dog. These extremists are gaining more of a voice. Others seem to view any animal as a potentially deadly threat, hence the attempts at breed-specific legislation for dogs. Although the vast majority of captive reptiles are totally harmless, the scared group still feels threatened by them, as they are not fluffy and conventionally 'cute'. The reptile hobby is impacted greatly by the misguided conservationists who think that the keeping of captive reptiles should be regulated for conservation reasons. Those who work in zoos and wild animal parks know about the careful stud books kept for endangered animals and the importance of managed breeding programs. This is totally irrelevant to the captive reptile hobby, but they don't seem to realise that.

The legislative control of reptile keeping is increasingly ridiculous. We need to get behind our professional societies and present a united front. Coming down hard on kids with lizards will get us nowhere, although it may be a way of venting frustration with the paperwork....


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## richoman_3 (Aug 4, 2013)

parks people tell others off who interfere with wildlife are just jealous they cant find them themselves and just want to look like theyre doing their job... some of them really annoy me!


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 4, 2013)

The entire situation is ridiculous for 2013. when these stupid laws were introduced, few species were threatened to the extent they are today by traffic, habitat destruction, Cane Toads etc, so the status quo was maintained by a "leave them where they are" mentality - maybe suitable then, but not now. In 2013, even if the habitat of a "protected" species is threatened with imminent destruction and it is the last stronghold of that species in the wild, keepers/breeders cannot go in and collect examples for captive breeding because they are "protected."

It's far easier for bureaucrats to let these things go extinct than change legislation which is 30 years out of date. Very sad...

Jamie


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## Pitttownboy (Aug 4, 2013)

GeckoJosh said:


> There are rare reptiles that are worth money and are much easier to get to than your two examples!


Can u say for sure that they are not already being taken


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 4, 2013)

pythonmum said:


> Back to the question, which seems to be getting lost here...
> 
> Should wildlife authorities enforce the laws regardless of the circumstances and intentions of the person who has 'caught' the reptiles?
> 
> short answer: no



The problem with this argument as I see it is where should the line be drawn? If some people are not prosecuted while others are treated as a criminal element how can the average ranger differentiate between the 2 or is it left totally to his discretion, (potentially influenced unfairly)?
The guidelines need to be established that are fair........while I think the majority of persons involved in this discussion will agree that there are cases that should or should not be prosecuted how can this be done fairly with the current laws? Laws need to be established that are suitable and the correctly policed. This country has so many laws but does little to police these that the system is a joke in most peoples eyes. We all know of people who admit openly to killing snakes but the authorities do nothing, yet a little boy saves a lizard from death and gets treated like he committed some inhumane act.


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## wokka (Aug 4, 2013)

Having laws which make no logical sense means people will inadvertantly break them. Presumably there is a point to having these wildlife laws but I am not clever enough to work it out. In answer to the question- I dont know, because I dont know what the rule is trying to achieve. Laws for laws sake never work!


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## cement (Aug 4, 2013)

pythonmum said:


> The reptile hobby is impacted greatly by the misguided conservationists who think that the keeping of captive reptiles should be regulated for conservation reasons. Those who work in zoos and wild animal parks know about the careful stud books kept for endangered animals and the importance of managed breeding programs. This is totally irrelevant to the captive reptile hobby, but they don't seem to realise that."
> 
> This is a strange comment.
> "impacted greatly"?... Does this relate to the founder of this thread and their recent project? Is the introduction of the Oenpelli into the hobby a "great impact" like you mention?
> ...


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## GeckoJosh (Aug 5, 2013)

Pitttownboy said:


> Can u say for sure that they are not already being taken



Of course people are already taking them, but if it was legal that number would surely rise, its the same as any other profitable illegal activity


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## pythonmum (Aug 5, 2013)

cement said:


> This is a strange comment.
> "impacted greatly"?... Does this relate to the founder of this thread and their recent project? Is the introduction of the Oenpelli into the hobby a "great impact" like you mention?
> 
> What is the difference between a python owner, keeping and breeding local specific animals, and selling them to the public.... and a zoo that does the same. When I say zoo......think John Weigal and the RSP and the recent Oenpelli project. Is this "true conservation"? As far as the gene pool goes its no different to someone who breeds a locale specific blue tongue.
> ...


No, my comment certainly does not relate to Gavin and the Oenpelli project. It relates to an attitude I see often in the public where people consider all native animals to be endangered. It is the only reason I can see for having to keep detailed movement and keeping records for common species. There is no conservation value in keeping track of spotted pythons, bearded dragons, etc. 

I think that there is value in breeding locale-specific animals, but this is not going to help wild populations which are being decimated by habitat destruction unless you can get the public interested enough to set aside land. The RSP project has made these fascinating animals accessible on a large scale. I hope that the Oenpelli project will do the same. These species may be saved from extinction, but nothing can bring back their habitat if it gets turned into a mine.


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## cement (Aug 5, 2013)

pythonmum said:


> No, my comment certainly does not relate to Gavin and the Oenpelli project. It relates to an attitude I see often in the public where people consider all native animals to be endangered. It is the only reason I can see for having to keep detailed movement and keeping records for common species. There is no conservation value in keeping track of spotted pythons, bearded dragons, etc.



I was just wondering how this attitude that you see so often, impacts greatly on the hobby.
The general public don't have any say in the hobby laws, and the newbies that buy into the common starter type herps are only buying a cool pet, so I'm confused by your comments.
If anything, keeping a reptile will only help make the public more aware of reptile keeping and maybe even a tad more inclined to take an interest in conserving our wildlife.
I don't see any "great impacts" on the hobby by "misguided conservationists".

Are there any stats or anyone keeping an eye on our wild herp populations?
How would we actually know what the position of any of the reptile species really is?


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## wokka (Aug 5, 2013)

cement said:


> Are there any stats or anyone keeping an eye on our wild herp populations?
> How would we actually know what the position of any of the reptile species really is?


 I must agree that it makes no sense that the department seems more concerned about how many animals are in captivity than how many are in the wild. the implication in their name is that they care for wildlife rather than pets. There is no base data from which to work so we never know if or how effective licencing is!


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## d-dutz (Oct 28, 2013)

So when I was younger I used to always pick up injured and non injured wildlife including reptiles if they were uninjured I would release them somewhere I thought would be safer than where I found them. If they were injured I would take them either to a vet that treated native wildlife (for free) or take them to the RSPCA...
from what I am hearing was this an illegal practice because at the time it felt like common sense :|


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## shell477 (Oct 29, 2013)

d-dutz said:


> So when I was younger I used to always pick up injured and non injured wildlife including reptiles if they were uninjured I would release them somewhere I thought would be safer than where I found them. If they were injured I would take them either to a vet that treated native wildlife (for free) or take them to the RSPCA...
> from what I am hearing was this an illegal practice because at the time it felt like common sense :|



From what I recall, it is an offence to move wildlife from where they are found. which is ridiculous if the animal is injured or in a dangerous spot! The amount of people that bring injured animals to me is quite a lot, rather than me having to go out and rescue them while in the meantime they could get hit or dissapear while it takes me time to get there. 

I agree that some laws are very outdated and need to be scrapped altogether or amended to be more logical!


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## BeAnZi (Nov 10, 2013)

i believe governments, pest animals , cats and dogs pose more of a risk to wildlife then good willed kids but I don't see them targeted to a serious degree


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## lochie (Nov 22, 2013)

Growing up I was forever rehabilitating wildlife, from sugar gliders that the neighbours cat got a hold of right the way up to some big jungles and right back down to injured birds. Then release them back into my backyard or rainforest however you want to describe it.

For myself I find this topic quite fascinating, if I'm walking along a walking trail in the rainforest and come across a gorgeous healthy large GTP resting on a low lying branch, would I grab it and take it home? no

However what If I see a gorgeous GTP that was bright red or yellow as an adult. (or a albino woma or a hyper melanistic olive where or what species snake doesn't matter)

Would I grab it and take it home? I could lie and say no but I would seriously consider it. That's how some amazing genetics are brought into the herp hobby.
The only difference is most of the time people shut the hell up about the wild caught animal and just say that they had some odd ones come out of a clutch.
I'm just being honest about what everyone would be thinking and would possibly do.

At the end of the day, we are a group of animals that gets great joy out of keeping another animal captive and looking after them.
Simple,


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## Ships (Nov 22, 2013)

Kids catching reptiles and keeping them is like a right of passage, any of us that have had the passion from a young age have done it and it will continue to be done whether legal or not. Perhaps for juvenile offenders, under the right circumstances, a cautioning system should be in place, which would educate them. Now if the juvenile is catching from the wild and onselling that is another matter entirely, but for the passionate youngster, which a lot of us were, cautioning is the way to go. Just my thoughts.


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 22, 2013)

lochie said:


> Growing up I was forever rehabilitating wildlife, from sugar gliders that the neighbours cat got a hold of right the way up to some big jungles and right back down to injured birds. Then release them back into my backyard or rainforest however you want to describe it.
> 
> For myself I find this topic quite fascinating, if I'm walking along a walking trail in the rainforest and come across a gorgeous healthy large GTP resting on a low lying branch, would I grab it and take it home? no
> 
> ...



Well, if you find a rare previously unknown morph of a common species, just move it out onto the road, catch it and say you saved it, and you need to keep it at home for a couple of years to ensure it isn't injured... that's how these things get into the trade here in Oz isn't it ? If we can't find it in the bush, we just get them sent over from the US or Europe, allowing a few months to explain that something that hadn't been here in centuries has suddenly been bred here not long after they were bred overseas...

In truth, removing one or a few easily accessible (on road or walking track) animals from the wild makes not a jot of difference to wild populations of reptiles. The biggest threat is habitat destruction - either by destructive searching for particular species (the granites in the WA wheatbelt are an example - they've been legally raped and pillaged for Stimsons for 10 years now) you can gouge a coalmine, bugger the watertable, or level 100s of hectares of bush for a housing development without any consideration being given to salvaging the native animals from those areas (you'd be prosecuted if you tried), but catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble. 

Jamie


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 22, 2013)

"catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble"

It ain't necessarily so....Only if you are caught or dobbed in and made an example of

Cheers
Sandee


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## Pythoninfinite (Nov 22, 2013)

Wild~Touch said:


> "catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble"
> 
> It ain't necessarily so....Only if you are caught or dobbed in and made an example of
> 
> ...



Indeed Sandee, indeed! I was forgetting for a moment that there are lots of guardians with big sticks looking out for violations on APS... I hope they can forgive my anarchic views... or I may be forever damned !

Jamie


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 22, 2013)

Nah...You're cool Jamie


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## leonc (Nov 30, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> The market price for reptiles is now much higher then back 30 years ago. Sure it isn't your average hobbiest that will go collecting GTPs in the wild but someone with the know-how going on a collecting trip could decimate local populations. I don't know where you come from (financially wise) but any reptile at $50 a pop would sound good to me. That's about double what your average Joe earns an hour. Certainly in the right areas finding a coastal every couple of hours wouldn't be too far fetched and you're doing what you love.



Surely,the prices are higher. Now,I can even tell it will increase drastically in the next years to come!! And,the population is decreasing while the production is increasing as well.


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## RoryBreaker (Nov 30, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> In truth, removing one or a few easily accessible (on road or walking track) animals from the wild makes not a jot of difference to wild populations of reptiles. The biggest threat is habitat destruction - either by destructive searching for particular species (the granites in the WA wheatbelt are an example - they've been legally raped and pillaged for Stimsons for 10 years now) you can gouge a coalmine, bugger the watertable, or level 100s of hectares of bush for a housing development without any consideration being given to salvaging the native animals from those areas (you'd be prosecuted if you tried), but catch one animal and take it home for a pet and you're in trouble.
> 
> Jamie



In Queensland for example, the state government has never ever ever knocked back a coal mine. And once it's given the go ahead there is no government authority checking these coal mining companies for their environmental responsibilities, it's left to the company to make sure they are complying with any environmental laws. As if they are going to tell anyone about some animal that may cause all sorts of profit downgrades, their shareholders would spew. Every big company also requires all workers to sign a confidentiality statement where all company activities are protected and not to be divulged to anyone, especially media.

Yet we as reptile keepers have to do paperwork for each and every transaction for animals that are easy as pie to keep and to produce. It's a great example of money talks. 

Now if you have some spare time, jump on google earth and look at the view of the landscape around chinchilla in Queensland, especially near Warra. We are witnessing the wholesale industrialization of the brigallow belt. Every coal seam gas well has a road and a pipeline connecting it to the next. The scale of the destruction has to be seen to be believed. 

Sort of makes the hoops us licence holders have to contend with irrelevant to the big picture when the EPA or whatever they call themselves this week allow this sort of stuff happen on such a broad scale. But they are at the whim of their political masters, so really we should be bombarding the politicians ourselves if we want change. 

Cheers


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## Kai92 (Nov 30, 2013)

I don't want to get into the great debate of this whole thread. But just for a fact. In the pipelines before any land is cleared fauna handlers must be present to remove all wildlife in the area been cleared and move them to safer areas. It's was common to come back to the part of the line we were working on the next morning to find the trench dug the previous day has a kangaroo or snake in there. The handlers would be there within the hour to remove the animal before any further work was commenced.


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