# Inbreeding Bearded Dragons



## gregcranston (Jul 3, 2008)

Below is some quoted conversation of a discussion on bearded dragon inbreeding that I have been having with another member, which we inadvertantly hijaked someone elses thread with. So I thought we should start our own thread with it and get some opinions from others.



Hawke said:


> gregcranston
> (unless they are related and if so you may have to dispose of any eggs),
> 
> why would eggs from a related pair have to be disposed of ?:?


 


gregcranston said:


> The obvious of course, the hatchlings will most probably be unhealthy and have genetic disorders caused by inbreeding. They would most probably be sterile and therefore no-one would want to buy them and in the worst case, they could have physical abnormalities.


 


Hawke said:


> I think you need to do a bit more research. Breeding siblings and offspring back to parents has no more chance of producing young with defects than an unrelated pairing. You must continuely breed related animals(siblings ect) for approxamately several generations before the likely-hood of defects is increased.


 


gregcranston said:


> You can't be serious, it is just basic genetics, inbreeding for even 1 generation will increase the chances of genetic problems in the offspring, its because siblings (or parents) will have similar heterozygous recessive genes and breeding them would highly increase the chances of some of the offspring from being homozygous for these genes and therefore have the disorder!


 


gregcranston said:


> Sorry, it seems as though we have hijaked this thread, I think we should start a new thread on this topic.


 


Hawke said:


> We are talking about reptiles not humans. How can you seriously tell someon that if their related beardies produce eggs they should be thrown out. Sterile, abnormal offspring, what rubbish.


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## Hawk (Jul 3, 2008)

This will be my last post on this matter. Can you tell me how we get all these wonderfull colour phases in beardies, albino pythons and many other morphs. Why are say, albino olives and darwins so readily available now days.


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## redbellybite (Jul 3, 2008)

mmmmmm was thinking that myself............inter breeding happens alot even in the human world not that i agree with human) but in dog worlds and cats reptiles etc ........i think you would really have to prove your theory gregcranston i am with hawke on this one ..............


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## bigguy (Jul 3, 2008)

Someone needs to do some research before making such statements. I have been inbreeding my Beardeds for 6 generations and nothing has happened yet. This is a common practice used by breeders around the world to acheive desired traits in reptiles, and if defects are to occur we haven't seen them yet.


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

inbreeding lowers fresh genetic makeup to only one line or similar genes from siblings etc. in the long run this does lead to weaker stock, so much that overseas the 'transulcent' lines needed desperately to be bred with different lines so that the stock could recover a strength. 

we have seen examples were inbreeding leads to weaker and lack of animals. eg. leathers and silks. so its no surprise that mutations like in humans, can happen in animals. so its not just folk and fairytale.. 

although its estimated that clear and visible mutations usually happen after the 7th generation of inbreeding. this was told to me by big time breeders in the US, which have far more dragons to breed then us. you all say that we dont want to follow the yanks.. so why breed like them, your just being lazy.. there are plenty of colourful dragons out there to outsource. 

you have to consider that your dragons may be siblings, were your breeders? an their breeder? etc. its common. 

why? it just shows you don't care about your stock and produce.. just like breeding juveniles and underdeveloped females, under a year old..


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## missllama (Jul 3, 2008)

i personally think any inbreeding is wrong i said this once on a glider thread
parks even state on the permit forms that its not allowed 
and its for a reason

everyone has there own opinions tho


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## dragon lady (Jul 3, 2008)

hmm...POP CORN!!!
1st... i do not see my personal need for direct sibling breeding
but i see benefits either way.......with stamping lines
but their are concerns,in the longterm outcome.... if it is not looked into properly with health

no i dont know enough about "technical" terms...but my experience tells me 
that its not to go into lightly
d/l


Kirby... i dont know the technical..names for stuff
but what you said doesn't cover in snakes.........
why would established Aust. known..world wide breeders...
chance the demise of their own stock?...its not about not caring...!
they just understand more than you
not saying your statement is wrong....but one sided..
pls dont take offense!


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## Noongato (Jul 3, 2008)

Interbreeding is just amplifieing all the same characteristics over and over, almost producing colones of each other, but if there is history of say bone problems within the family of animals, deformities only occur when the gene is dominant in both animals that are bred. So interbreeding is used by professionals in the sense of rejecting any offspring or parents that have any undesirable health problems, and focus on interbreeding two animals that are 'perfect' where they dont carry any genes for health problems, discovering these 'perfect' animals is a long process with lots of failures along the way. 
On the evolutionary scale, new blood is required to ensure there is a wide variety of immunity, so that if a disease broke out it wouldnt wipe out the whole species in one go. There would be those selective few that have just the right genetics to be immune. Interbreeding means all the animals that are born are the same, so if a sickness affects one more than average they are all susceptable and will most probably perish.
Interbreeding is used to incorage genetic mutations to a extent so that you get backfires of albinos and specific colourations and other disorders which would wipe the animal out if it were living in the wild. So to preserve the other natural characteristics - but humans force it to happen so there is a bigger variety of rarer animals for the pet trade.
Dogs are the biggest example of interbreeding for characteristics. Every dog on the planet has stemmed from the one species - which is why all breeds of dog can produce fertile offspring.
From carefull selection of offspring and interbreeding for mutations we end up with all those really exceptional breeds such as the bulldog and chihuahuas and greyhounds etc. Which are -nothing- like their wild counterparts, therefore in the wild today most would perish, although there are exceptions, but most wild dogs that thrive on their own without any human interaction are the breeds still similar to the wild dog, with large jaws and short fur etc, like the dingo.

Point was, interbreeding may be completly fine to do for many many generations, but also could make problems within first generation. So its a game of chance.
Breeding unrelated pairs are capable of have double genes of a genetic problem too, but interbreeding is in a sense- using every card in the pack, just a matter of getting a good hand in a random pick.

Thats what Ive learnt anyways


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## bump73 (Jul 3, 2008)

Just out of interest if inbreeding in reptiles is detrimental how come a species like Rough Scaled Pythons has managed to survive in such a small region in relatively low numbers (as far as research has shown) without dying off??? I know there is a possibility that there are other populations out there but i'm pretty sure a few research studies have looked into its distribution and only located the 1 gorge that has them, meaning that they would in all likely hood have been inbreeding for generations...

And i don't think mammal genetics are the best example when talking about reptiles....

Ben


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 3, 2008)

Reptile genetics are totally different to mamalian genetics ,
if your interested in learning more buy some books and get educated .
my 2 cents


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## Vincent (Jul 3, 2008)

What about all the Island populations of Tiger snakes?
Inbreeding certainly hasnt hurt them.
You cant compare mammals to reptiles at all.


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## gregcranston (Jul 3, 2008)

bump73 said:


> And i don't think mammal genetics are the best example when talking about reptiles....





Jungle_Freak said:


> Reptile genetics are totally different to mamalian genetics





Vincent said:


> You cant compare mammals to reptiles at all.


 
Genetics is genetics, they all have DNA and the effects on DNA from inbreeding is the same within any animal or even plant.


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## Noongato (Jul 3, 2008)

The rough-scaled and tigers are probably so isolated that there are no diseases to challenge their genetics. Any deformities would die soon after birth anyway.


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## Vincent (Jul 3, 2008)

It really makes me laugh how some people think inbreeding reptiles is so evil.
Just about every captive bred reptile in this country has been inbred somewhere along the line. The vast majority of captive bred reptiles have been inbred just about every generation. Some people are so naive.


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

dragon lady said:


> Kirby... i dont know the technical..names for stuff
> but what you said doesn't cover in snakes.........
> why would established Aust. known..world wide breeders...
> chance the demise of their own stock?...its not about not caring...!
> ...



the thread is titled 'inbreeding bearded dragons'... not, 'inbreeding snakes'

vincent, we are all aware somewhere along the line our animals were probably inbred, why cant we try not to repeat past mistakes?

there is no need, you can do everything that inbreeding dose by outsourcing, its only that inbreeding is cheap, easy and quick.


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## Chris1 (Jul 3, 2008)

i cant imagine why the dragons in the US are so weak and full of probs in inbreeding doesnt harm them after a while.

people say u can inbreed for something like 7 generations with no probs, but if its not necessary, why do it?

i think its always better to get some fresh blood in there if possible, just to avoid doubling up on any weaknesses that may be present, theres so many nice colours available inbreeding for colour is no longer necessary.


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## Vincent (Jul 3, 2008)

Kirby said:


> vincent, we are all aware somewhere along the line our animals were probably inbred, why cant we try not to repeat past mistakes?


 
It's not a mistake. It's fully intentional , for valid reasons. The Authorities would have to allow collecting from the wild in all states if we all made the decision not to inbreed.
There's simply not enough different bloodlines available for your fantasy to work. 
Thats fact.


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## Jungle_Freak (Jul 3, 2008)

What about all the pure dog and cats and cows and pigs etc etc 
they were all created by man by inbreeding , 
now stop this BS and get educated ,


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## alex_c (Jul 3, 2008)

as long as it isnt done to many times before new genetics are introduced there is no problem. it would be absolutely absurd to say inbreeding in wild reptiles or any animal for that matter isnt common.


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## cruester (Jul 3, 2008)

Those of you that say line breeding or inbreeding is the wrong thing to do, need to get there facts straight.Just because they are bred back to a sibling or parent don't mean they will be defective,infertile,deformed etc. Generally most of the reptiles you are buying are line bred to get the desired colours or traits.As Bigguy pointed out, 5th and 6th gen line bred animals don't show any form of defects,weakness etc so it's all just another load of reptile world BS.Last but not least,comparing what we do here in Oz to the yanks and there probs is an insult to the Aussie herp trade.WE ARE NOT AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

Vincent said:


> It's not a mistake. It's fully intentional , for valid reasons. The Authorities would have to allow collecting from the wild in all states if we all made the decision not to inbreed.
> There's simply not enough different bloodlines available for your fantasy to work.
> Thats fact.



no, your simply not capable of understanding that each dragon has its own genetics, and how out sourcing works. 

the amount of wild bearded dragons is beyond comprehension. hundreds of thousands die on our roads annually, the amount of wild caught that could be used to fulfill a full scale non-inbreeding program is possible, but you need to resist from breeding siblings. it is completely possible, after all the majority of the human race does it.. 

its like taking 30,000 humans to go live in space, being initially unrelated its possible to start spaces first breeding program and equivelate over hundreds of years to have 5 times as many humans, still unrelated, and even further.. millions.. 


you just have to search for someone and keep records so you dont hook up with your sister or cousin.


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## Miss B (Jul 3, 2008)

Some people need to do a bit of research 

Those who keep saying that inbreeding produces weak and defective animals - let's see some proof?


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss B said:


> Some people need to do a bit of research
> 
> Those who keep saying that inbreeding produces weak and defective animals - let's see some proof?



hypo-translucents.


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## Noongato (Jul 3, 2008)

Imbreeding bearded dragons is pretty pointless unless you have abinos or something different from the norm. Geez its not like its expensive to just buy another one to breed with.....


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## Chris1 (Jul 3, 2008)

midnightserval said:


> Imbreeding bearded dragons is pretty pointless unless you have abinos or something different from the norm. Geez its not like its expensive to just buy another one to breed with.....



too right!!!


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## Miss B (Jul 3, 2008)

Kirby clearly you do not understand. 

The very first translucent beardies to ever pop up - were they robust and healthy? NO.

Inbreeding of stock that is healthy and robust, with no genetic defects, does NOT lead to weak, deformed or mutated offspring. The translucents were never robust to begin with, so that doesn't count. You are also disregarding the fact that Adenovirus in rampant in the United States yet does not exist in Australia.


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## itbites (Jul 3, 2008)

*Although I'm not for or against it...I certainly wouldn't be doing it continuously over and over again..I've had some questionable beardies in my day lol either they were inbred or seriously brain damaged ! trying to eat light bulks for no reason etc..*
*On the plus side with line breeding sometimes you end up with the most gorgeous pure markings/colors..that can't be achieved by pairing unrelated beardies..*


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## Chris1 (Jul 3, 2008)

US dragons arent only dying from adenovirus, they seem to be alot more prone to MBD, RI's and basically everything else that kills dragons,..

i cant imagine that their deaths are all husbandry related considering beardys are so easy to care for.


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## gregcranston (Jul 3, 2008)

Wow, I've opened up a can of worms here.
I'd just be too scared to risk inbreeding beardies, I'd be scared of what might come out of the eggs. Maybe that does mean I am a bit naive.
If I could bring myself to doing it, I'd actually love to, because I think if I back-bred my beautiful orange/yellow male to his orange/yellow mother, they would produce such beautifully coloured babies, but like I said I just wouldn't wanna risk it, I'd rather spend more money (which I don't have much of) and outsource.


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss B said:


> yet does not exist in Australia.



that statement in its self proves you yourself have not done your research.


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

when the first few trans popped up, they inbred it to create more.. it became significantly weaker.. 

this is a valid point.


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## Miss B (Jul 3, 2008)

Kirby said:


> that statement in its self proves you yourself have not done your research.



Lmao. So now you are claiming we have adenovirus in Australia?

And you missed my point. The translucents were WEAK to begin with. They were not healthy and robust when the mutation first occurred. So how is your example valid, or in any way relevant to this discussion? It's not.


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

just because your 'thing' was weak, doesn't mean every other one was.. 

the line was weakened and in desperate need of outsourcing.. so they did. 

noting your 'lmao'... you are completely ignorant to the subject at hand.


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## CodeRed (Jul 3, 2008)

Ahh kirby strikes again.

Seeing you try to palm yourself off as some self proclaimed expert why dont you tell everyone just how many beardies you have bred in your life?

Let me answer for you .. NONE.


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## Miss B (Jul 3, 2008)

My "thing" has absolutely nothing to do with this topic :lol: Now you are really clutching at straws. As usual, Sensei Kirby, your claims are rarely backed up by anything of substance. To quote Becs, "Crouching Dragon... Flying Bullsh-t" 

And you never answered my question. Are you saying we have adenovirus in Australia?

By the way - where do you think all the albino Darwins came from, considering there was originally just a single female? I guess they are all weak, deformed, mutated, infertile... poor sickly little things, dying all the time.


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

i never said any of my comments on inbreeding were from experience. if you read my posts properly i stated some US lines and their problems, as well as some information i had read and based my opinion on. i never stated IMO. 

i can have an opinion, but you CodeRed must have experienced inbreeding yourself right? lol


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

yes, Adenovirus is evident in Australia.


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## Noongato (Jul 3, 2008)

I love this site....................


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## Miss B (Jul 3, 2008)

Kirby said:


> yes, Adenovirus is evident in Australia.



So whose dragon, in Australia, has been correctly diagnosed as Adeno-positive?


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## dixilizards (Jul 3, 2008)

*Inbreeding Beardies*

Hi All,

I will begin with one simple point, every breeder of every animal in the world has back bred at some stage, knowingly or not.

Humans in some cultures back breed, every marriage.

All in all it has created some new colour variations in many of the outcomes and in some instances has caused the outcome of certain 'defects' i.e. Albino, Learning Difficulties etc...

How many of you have heart problems in both your mothers and fathers side of the family?? or Diabetes, Cancer, High blood pressure etc etc etc... Do we as humans ask these sorts of questions when we ask someone out? Yet we still have babies... with adoption, how can you be certain the girl/guy your with isn't your brother/sister, uncle/aunty etc etc..

To back breed/ inbreed, whatever you like to call it is something that has occured around the world for Billions of years, after all life stemmed from single celled organisms...

To the choice to back breed lies withthe breeder, or with the animals if they are kept as colonies.

Colonies in captivity are no different to those in the wild, in both cases limited genetics will for generations be present. Yet still species exist, and thrive in their habitats.

As climate change specialists and historians of wildlife will tell you, those animals that are extinct are not so from genetics but from humans and the effect humans have on the world.

Greg, if your choice is not to inbreed then so be it, that is completely your choice and commend you for standing on your morals.

Those of you that agree with Greg, I also commend you for beliefs.

Those of you that agree to inbreed, I also completely agree with you standing for your morals.

However, those of you on both sides that have condemned each other on your stance I think need to take a step back and act rationally and with some regard to the fact everyone has the right to their own opinion.

I personally line breed those that share the most desired variants, however I also seek out new 'blood' that shows the variants I wish to have. I believe it's all a give - give situation.

To do nothing but inbreed will over time, (generations and generations and generations), have a detrimental outcome. In saying this, how many of you from time to time downsize your collections for various reasons and then purchase again when circumstances change?? This in itself brings in new lines.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I commend once again those that have, however bare in mind how many will not share their views for fear of retaliation. 

That seems to be a common view shared by many that I have spoken to that are members of AussiePython, they don't speak up and don't share their knowledge becasue they are affraid of potentil repercussions. Just spare a thought for those you scare off by being so adament with your own opinions and thoughts that you attack others that don't share it.

Thanks all for reading and if you have greivance with anything I have said please feel free to PM me and we can discuss it privately.


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## Miss B (Jul 3, 2008)

What's that, you've got no proof to back up your claims? Hardly surprising


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss B said:


> What's that, you've got no proof to back up your claims? Hardly surprising



anyone that can work google and a telephone will find tested and positive dragons within australia since 2001.


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## Minka (Jul 3, 2008)

Kirby said:


> anyone that can work google and a telephone will find tested and positive dragons within australia since 2001.


 

I think someone is taking the INTERNET a little TO seriously...


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## Noongato (Jul 3, 2008)

APS should start up a boxing ring, itll bring in a little more $$ for the site, plus we can all place bets. Hahaha


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## FAY (Jul 3, 2008)

Let's just have a sensible debate without name calling.


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## JasonL (Jul 3, 2008)

The biggest biggest way of weakening genes is by raising every single bearded, pampering the weaker ones, esp those that are nicely coloured, just to re breed with them. We seem to loose sight that a great percentage of the reptiles we breed would not make it in the wild, but we force feed, pump them full of antibiotics just to keep them alive. We are weaking the genes of or multi generation reptiles just by breeding them.


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## gregcranston (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm not saying I don't beleive you about the adeno-virus in Australia Kirby. But I think you should try and show everyone some proof, just to give more credability to your claims. Please dont take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to give you some helpful advice.


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## Chris1 (Jul 3, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamid_adenovirus.

the first paragraph,...copied and pasted,...



Agamid adenovirus (Agamid AdV1) is a type of virus in the Adenoviridae family. The virus is widespread in captive populations of Pogona vitticeps, known commonly as the Inland Bearded Dragon, in the United States. Other countries with confirmed cases are Australia, Japan, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, UK and Central America (El Salvador).[1] It is often discovered in association with other infections, and causes increased juvenile mortality and adult deaths.[2]

with the amount of exotics t =hat still make it into the county i cant believe people could doubt that!!


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## redbellybite (Jul 3, 2008)

Please dont take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to give you some helpful advice.[/quote]
lmao greg.you were the one saying you had a problem in the 1st place and now your offering helpful advice maybe you should of found out some things before you shot your mouth off mmmmmmmm


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## gregcranston (Jul 3, 2008)

The helpful advice was about the adeno-virus thing.
If we are back on inbreeding, I was just stating my opinion and I've enjoyed all the different opinions and points of view so far, but not the bickering. I still dont really see the point of intentional inbreeding in beardies, and would never do it myself, but I now respect other people's rights and and opinions in doing so. I've learnt alot from this thread and I would definately "shoot my mouth off" again.

P.S. Thanks Chris for the info


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## Kirby (Jul 3, 2008)

greg, these people should be more then capable of finding evidence and tested dragons themselves. 

and i wasn't even thinking of wiki-pedia as a source.. but thanks for the post Chris..


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## CodeRed (Jul 3, 2008)

You still havent answered my question. 
*So how many beardies have you bred and how much actual experience do you have?*


Several highly experienced breeders have posted here saying they have not observed any problems after multiple generations, yet you with zero experience and zero evidence, completely disregard what they have said. That pretty much sums every thread you get involved in. The world according to Kirby


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## CodeRed (Jul 3, 2008)

JasonL said:


> The biggest biggest way of weakening genes is by raising every single bearded, pampering the weaker ones, esp those that are nicely coloured, just to re breed with them. We seem to loose sight that a great percentage of the reptiles we breed would not make it in the wild, but we force feed, pump them full of antibiotics just to keep them alive. We are weaking the genes of or multi generation reptiles just by breeding them.


 

Jason, you'vre nailed in it one. Weak animals come from indisrimant breeding not from inbreeding.

Major breeders have many animals to choose from when selecting pairings, weak ones are certainly not used. If one of my pairings throws sickly or deformed babies they will be culled and the parents never bred again. This eliminates ongoing genetic problems. 

This does not apply for the majority of small time breeders as they simply do not have the numbers to be selective with. Also, sadly, some people will breed any two animals regardless of their health, history, and match.

If you breed beardies (or any other animal for that matter) then it is *your* responsiblity to cull (or otherwise take care off) any defective animals that may occur.


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## dragon lady (Jul 3, 2008)

JasonL... you always do the words right!
CodeRed...that was poetry!


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## BT (Jul 3, 2008)

Typical thread, Jasons hit the nail on the head, poorer feeders should be culled to prevent a bad line, like whats happened in the us, full of bad lines, has nothing to do with inbreeding, like in the wild its survival of the fitest.
Blake


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