# What is more desirable when breeding (Male or Female)?



## Chipewah (Jul 7, 2018)

Good morning members,

Now before any funnies are made, I know you need both to breed 

From what I have read and seen, it seems breeders are really keen on keeping female stock and not as keen on keeping male stock. I am guessing that this is because one male can be put over several (3 or 4) females but one female can only go over one male, unless their are multiple fathers but it will still be one clutch from one female.

I am guessing that the reason for breeders keeping more females is because of the above?

Also, from what I have read and seen it seems when breeding Albino's the best mix is a het to a full/homozygous because full to full seems to wash out the patterns after a while?

Any assistance is appreciated.


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## Shire pythons (Jul 7, 2018)

Your reasoning makes perfect sense to me mate cant speak for every breeder out there but that is my logic on keeping more females . Never bred albinos but i have heard its a good idea to outcross with hets to get random patterns and bold colours


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## Chipewah (Jul 8, 2018)

Shire pythons said:


> Your reasoning makes perfect sense to me mate cant speak for every breeder out there but that is my logic on keeping more females . Never bred albinos but i have heard its a good idea to outcross with hets to get random patterns and bold colours



Thanks for the reply Shire pythons. I see a lot of Albino's with very reduce and light patterning and then others with really heavy thick patterning and have wondered what causes the difference between them?

I was fairly confident that the reason breeders kept more females than males was a I suspected but wasn't 100% sure. I have also read that it is best to purchase your females first as males are able to breed a bit earlier/younger/lighter than the females.

Thanks again for the reply.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jul 8, 2018)

Generally females need to be older to breed than males but my main philosophy when I hold back animals is quality more than sex. Why sell a top quality or unusual marked animal because its a male but keep an average female?

Putting males to multiple females can be very successful but sharing them through 3 or 4 females can actually reduce the number of viable eggs and have an adverse effect on the males long term health.
Add to that that some times a male will simply decide he doesn't want to breed with a particular female you want to put him with so if you dont have a back up male that female is now out of your plans for the season. (I had this very situation this season but had a back up male)

There is much to be said for having as many or more males than you have females.


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## Chipewah (Jul 8, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Generally females need to be older to breed than males but my main philosophy when I hold back animals is quality more than sex. Why sell a top quality or unusual marked animal because its a male but keep an average female?
> 
> Putting males to multiple females can be very successful but sharing them through 3 or 4 females can actually reduce the number of viable eggs and have an adverse effect on the males long term health.
> Add to that that some times a male will simply decide he doesn't want to breed with a particular female you want to put him with so if you dont have a back up male that female is now out of your plans for the season. (I had this very situation this season but had a back up male)
> ...



Anything I bred that was something I personally liked, be it male or female, I would likely consider keeping. I couldn't think of anything worse than having a really nice male that wouldn't breed with a female or vice versa.

Thanks for the reply, appreciated.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jul 8, 2018)

Also consider that if you have a single male going over multiple females and he decides to go for an impromptu slough you have several females with no partner.
I lost one of my main males for 2 weeks this season.


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## Shire pythons (Jul 8, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Also consider that if you have a single male going over multiple females and he decides to go for an impromptu slough you have several females with no partner.
> I lost one of my main males for 2 weeks this season.


Exactly, 1 male over many females is risky but 2or3 males over 5 or more females is a good ratio imo. Also if im buying off another breeder for a particular genetic i will always try to get a male!
[doublepost=1531039656,1531039343][/doublepost]


Chipewah said:


> Thanks for the reply Shire pythons. I see a lot of Albino's with very reduce and light patterning and then others with really heavy thick patterning and have wondered what causes the difference between them?
> 
> I was fairly confident that the reason breeders kept more females than males was a I suspected but wasn't 100% sure. I have also read that it is best to purchase your females first as males are able to breed a bit earlier/younger/lighter than the females.
> 
> Thanks again for the reply.


Imo you should always holdback whatever is more desirable to what you are aiming for regardless of sex . You can figure out breeding plans etc later , main thing is to try to move in the direction you're aiming for whatever that might be . (High yellow,striped,reduced pattern etc etc )


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## Mick666 (Jul 9, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Also consider that if you have a single male going over multiple females and he decides to go for an impromptu slough you have several females with no partner.
> I lost one of my main males for 2 weeks this season.


I'm having this happen right now. He locked with the first girl and then went into shed cycle.


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## Chipewah (Jul 9, 2018)

Thanks for the replies everyone, really appreciated.


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## Sdaji (Jul 9, 2018)

The 'albino x albino creating more washed out babies' thing is complete myth, and quite a strange one. I'd never heard it before, but as a qualified geneticist and dare I say pretty experienced breeder, including breeding many hundreds of albino snakes, I can assure you it's not true. I've often heard the myth that breeding het x albino produces healthier offspring than albino x albino, but not the other.

When a morph is new males are often more expensive. If right now you had a clutch of piebald carpets on sale I can guarantee the males would fetch a much higher price, but in time the prices would become about even and in more time the males would drop below the females.

It's not just breeders who prefer females. Pet keepers generally prefer female snakes. About half will outright say they prefer a female, and most of the rest will say they don't really care, but then most of them time choose a female unless there is a price difference or other incentive to go for a male. I remember often making males cheaper so I could sell them, and people saying they didn't care about male or female would say okay, a male when I said I'd make a male cheaper, and then they'd get uncomfortable and often end up going for a female anyway, which I used to find amusing. Females are generally just more popular, whether it's snakes or anything else. If you see a sculpture or picture of a nude or scantily clad human in someone's home, it's going to be a woman. If you look at who women look at, it's women. If you look at who men look at, it's women. Miss Universe contests draw big audiences, no one pays attention to Mr Universe contests. For various reasons, most of which are now too politically incorrect to state in public and these days would be called lies despite how obviously true they are, people have a general preference for female.


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## Chipewah (Jul 10, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> The 'albino x albino creating more washed out babies' thing is complete myth, and quite a strange one. I'd never heard it before, but as a qualified geneticist and dare I say pretty experienced breeder, including breeding many hundreds of albino snakes, I can assure you it's not true. I've often heard the myth that breeding het x albino produces healthier offspring than albino x albino, but not the other.
> 
> When a morph is new males are often more expensive. If right now you had a clutch of piebald carpets on sale I can guarantee the males would fetch a much higher price, but in time the prices would become about even and in more time the males would drop below the females.
> 
> It's not just breeders who prefer females. Pet keepers generally prefer female snakes. About half will outright say they prefer a female, and most of the rest will say they don't really care, but then most of them time choose a female unless there is a price difference or other incentive to go for a male. I remember often making males cheaper so I could sell them, and people saying they didn't care about male or female would say okay, a male when I said I'd make a male cheaper, and then they'd get uncomfortable and often end up going for a female anyway, which I used to find amusing. Females are generally just more popular, whether it's snakes or anything else. If you see a sculpture or picture of a nude or scantily clad human in someone's home, it's going to be a woman. If you look at who women look at, it's women. If you look at who men look at, it's women. Miss Universe contests draw big audiences, no one pays attention to Mr Universe contests. For various reasons, most of which are now too politically incorrect to state in public and these days would be called lies despite how obviously true they are, people have a general preference for female.



Thanks for the reply Sdaji.

Interesting that you don't agree with the Albino to Albino washing out the pattern after a while, a lot but not all, I have heard throughout various forums say het to Albino works better for heavier and darker patterned animals. I guess I will have to experiment myself and see how it goes?

I know that a lot of the albinos I see out there are very reduce patter and light in color but every now and then I see some with very heavy and dark patterning. I have heard that the Darwin cross Jungle Albino's have a lot brighter yellows and I am a bigger fan of the darker and heavier patterned Albino's than the reduced and light patterned Albinos. I am also a fan of really good pure bred animals but am also a fan of good morphs and mixes. Albino's/Sunglow and Axanthics are my favorite Morphs but love really good examples of pure bred animals.

I currently have two males and one female so will be looking to get more females in the future but will likely invest more money into a couple of really good quality males as their genes can be put into numerous clutches per season and a females can only be put into one. I will be purchasing more females than males though as they are the producers of hatchlings. 

Thanks again for your input, greatly appreciated.


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## Sdaji (Jul 11, 2018)

Experiment for yourself if you like, it never hurts  It doesn't matter how true it is, sometimes doing something yourself is the other way you'll be convinced  

Yes, you certainly get a range of appearances in albinos, and yep, outcrossing to different subspecies or different lines will give you different looking albino versions, but whether you're producing them from visuals or visual to het or het to het makes zero difference in terms of health or appearance. I realise that if you don't know me it doesn't matter if I say I am a qualified geneticist who has bred bucket loads of albinos and was third person in Australia to establish an albino snake, because at the end of the day my words are just text on a screen from a stranger. Myths in animal circles are difficult to get rid of! Haha 

People do usually buy too few males, especially when they have multiple females and only one male, but there's rarely any point in having more males than females, and there are as many good looking females out there as there are males. If you are going to be buying more females than males, as most people do, then yes, it makes sense to put extra care into making sure your males are top quality.


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