# Class 1 Dwarf Adder feeding



## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

These guys are great, fed both my male and female 2 pinkies each today, male knocked one out of the tongs...fantastic little guys, been mating strong, fingers crossed


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## rash (Sep 9, 2009)

dwarf adders? Never heard of them , but damn it looks cute!


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## Acrochordus (Sep 9, 2009)

Nice Mudd Adder Jason.
Thanks Tim


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## snake_boy (Sep 9, 2009)

i want one. what license is needed?


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## ryanharvey1993 (Sep 9, 2009)

awsome hes eating a mouse, is it force feed or did it just take it?


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

Class 1 is all that needed... though, they are rated as "potentially dangerous" and the two people I know who were bitten by them said it was far from a pleasant experience...


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

ryanharvey1993 said:


> awsome hes eating a mouse, is it force feed or did it just take it?



nah mate, they take them willingly.


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## rash (Sep 9, 2009)

class 1 as in class 1 vens? along with rrb ect?


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## snake_boy (Sep 9, 2009)

yeh im lost by class one. does that mean for vens or just a basic Recreational wildlife license


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

no, not class 2 cat 1... class 1, as in anyone can buy them


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## dickyknee (Sep 9, 2009)

Nice Jason , good to see them eating well .


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

there are a small amount of vens on class1 like YF whips, Marsh Snakes, Dwyers ect


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## snake_boy (Sep 9, 2009)

thats cool. where would i find myself one of them and what is the average price range?



JasonL said:


> no, not class 2 cat 1... class 1, as in anyone can buy them


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## krefft (Sep 9, 2009)

John Singleton would be proud Jason...best one since Honey Jungles!!


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## jeremy_88 (Sep 9, 2009)

JasonL said:


> there are a small amount of vens on class1 like YF whips, Marsh Snakes, Dwyers ect



All of which are very hard to get a hold of, well I've found anyway..

Thanks for sharing Jason they are awesome.


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

krefft said:


> John Singleton would be proud Jason...best one since Honey Jungles!!



haha, yeah, well you get a much better product than honey jungles lol


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

jeremy_88 said:


> All of which are very hard to get a hold of, well I've found anyway..
> 
> Thanks for sharing Jason they are awesome.



I keep Dwyers, DeVis and Marsh... could of got whips too but too much work as it is.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Sep 9, 2009)

have you got all them feeding on mice, sounds like a lot of scenting and stuff. if you have any more pics please post, I love dwyers snakes, have you taken a bite, my mate was bittten out at cassilis (on the way out to coonabaraben) and he had no ill affects.


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

Lots of work Ryan, with the exception of the DeVis, they are pretty easy.. Marsh snakes are the biggest pain, Dwyers don't seem to loose much weight thus far, yes got bitten by one, finger swelled, bit of a burn down to my wrist but nothing much really, all gone within 2 days.. had to pull the little bugger off my finger though, latched on like a pit bull.


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## ravan (Sep 9, 2009)

aww they look awesome!


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## Jason (Sep 9, 2009)

looks great, but to be honest iv never seen or heard of them. after a quick search i cant find anything either. can anyone give me abit of info on these guys and possibly some more pics?
thanks for sharing jason... you've got me very interested.


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## JasonL (Sep 9, 2009)

DeVis Banded, Denisonia devisi aka Mud Adder... I take a few more pics over the coming days..


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## rash (Sep 9, 2009)

yeh, looking forward to more pics! are they an actual adder, or is that just a nick-name? very nice looking little snake!


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## JasonL (Sep 10, 2009)

Nah, Just a old school nick-name "Mud-Adder", as they are often found in and around muddy areas, they are frog eaters, but most will go onto pinkies without much fuss unlike some of the other class 1 elapids.


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## Ewan (Sep 10, 2009)

Hi JasonL, from your experience are the larger class 2 elapids, ie RBBS etc. easier to learn from than these little DeVis Bandeds? Or are these little guys a good stepping stone into the larger guys.

Regards. 
Ewan.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

Good stuff Jason ....dont mind the little mud adders..hodges has a nice set too ..fingers crossed for both you guys that you end up with bubs..


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

Ewan said:


> Hi JasonL, from your experience are the larger class 2 elapids, ie RBBS etc. easier to learn from than these little DeVis Bandeds? Or are these little guys a good stepping stone into the larger guys.
> 
> Regards.
> Ewan.


RBBS would be way easier ...no where near as finicky and much easier to care for if you have not had much experience with vens ..


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## pythons73 (Sep 10, 2009)

Awesome little fellas,when you say Dwarf,how small are adults compared to the normal Death Adder..What is a reasonable price for these...


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## TahneeMaree (Sep 10, 2009)

So they're not deadly poisonous?
How big do they grow and can I have one in Qld on a Recreational License?


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

nope TM all elapids are on lic 2 in QLD ...


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## TahneeMaree (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> nope TM all elapids are on lic 2 in QLD ...


 
Nawww 
Oh well I'll just haveto wait till Luke gets one so I can visit it 
I REALLY only want him for his Reptiles and his body 

(jokes)


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## dickyknee (Sep 10, 2009)

TahneeMaree said:


> So they're not deadly poisonous?
> How big do they grow and can I have one in Qld on a Recreational License?



Venomous , but not deadly .


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## KingSirloin (Sep 10, 2009)

So am I reading this right? RBBS's require an advanced licence but are easier to care for by first time ven keepers, but mud adders (still being dangerous) are on basic licence and harder to care for??

Seems very much like NSW government logic to me.


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## dickyknee (Sep 10, 2009)

KingSirloin said:


> So am I reading this right? RBBS's require an advanced licence but are easier to care for by first time ven keepers, but mud adders (still being dangerous) are on basic licence and harder to care for??
> 
> Seems very much like NSW government logic to me.



I think the difference might be a RBBS can kill you and a De Vi's will not .


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## KingSirloin (Sep 10, 2009)

That's understandable, but I thought it would be common sense for all vens to be on advanced licence.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

KingSirloin said:


> That's understandable, but I thought it would be common sense for all vens to be on advanced licence.


 they are in QLD...alot of the lesser vens are actually harder to get feeding and even though the RBBS is a more toxic ven ...looking after it is easier in a sense ..is the point being made not talking about if you cop a bite from it ,you dont wanna cop a bite from any ven really ..


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## Brettix (Sep 10, 2009)

So do these take straight to pinkies Jason from hatchlings ?


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## cris (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> nope TM all elapids are on lic 2 in QLD ...



Where does it say this? It clearly states more dangerous types that are listed are restricted, but i have talked to them about this a few times and they have always come to the conclusion that you can keep less dangerous elapids on a recreational licence.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

cris said:


> Where does it say this? It clearly states more dangerous types that are listed are restricted, but i have talked to them about this a few times and they have always come to the conclusion that you can keep less dangerous elapids on a recreational licence.


 I think you will find if you ring the 1300 368 326 and push button 1 and speak to someone there you will be told NO ...all venomous snakes in QLD are on the same permit ..which is not the basic permit .


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## notechistiger (Sep 10, 2009)

What about brown tree snakes? I know for a fact that those can be kept on a recreational licence. Pretty sure whips snakes can be as well.


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> I think you will find if you ring the 1300 368 326 and push button 1 and speak to someone there you will be told NO ...all venomous snakes in QLD are on the same permit ..which is not the basic permit .



I think you'll find that if you look at the actual legislation, cris is correct. I've contacted the EPA about this a while ago and they pretty much refused to give me a straight answer. Their response was basically to look at the legislation.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

slacker said:


> I think you'll find that if you look at the actual legislation, cris is correct. I've contacted the EPA about this a while ago and they pretty much refused to give me a straight answer. Their response was basically to look at the legislation.


 well I contacted them like two days ago finding out about such vens and was told all elapids are on the same permit ...so dont know who you spoke to but if you lot manage to get a low risk ven on your rec permit ,am sure we all would like to know


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## ravan (Sep 10, 2009)

notechistiger said:


> What about brown tree snakes? I know for a fact that those can be kept on a recreational licence. Pretty sure whips snakes can be as well.



brown trees are classed as colubrids arent they? then yes, colubrids can be kept on a rec licence because they are rear-fanged?


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

anyway slacker if that was the case ..dont ya think there would be alot more people owning ' lesser vens 'if the permit was a basic one only? ...


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> anyway slacker if that was the case ..dont ya think there would be alot more people owning ' lesser vens 'if the permit was a basic one only? ...



rbb, if you don't want to take my word for it, no worries, but go check the legislation for yourself. To be blunt, most of those people you speak to at that call center don't know anything about anything.

Go to http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au and check out the Nature Conservation Regulation 2006 (Wildlife Management). It says:

Reptiles
The following reptiles are restricted animals—
(a) a threatened, rare or near threatened reptile other than
the following—
(i) a reptile of the family Cheloniidae;
(ii) a reptile of the family Dermochelydiae;
(iii) an estuarine crocodile (Crocodylus porosus);
(iv) a freshwater crocodile (Crocodylus johnstoni);
(b) a reptile of the family Hydrophiidae;
(c) a reptile of the family Laticaudidae;
*(d) the following reptiles of the family Elapidae—*

Common name Scientific name
black snakes Pseudechis spp.
broad-headed snakes Hoplocephalus spp.
brown snakes Pseudonaja spp.
Collett’s snake Pseudechis colletti
copperheads Austrelaps spp.
death adders Acanthopis spp.
eastern small-eyed snake Rhinoplocephalus
nigriscens
rough scaled snake Tropidechis carinatus
taipans Oxyuranus spp.
tiger snakes Notechis spp.

And as for whether there should be more people keeping small elapids? Not really. As you said yourself, most of them are a pain in the backside and there's few around compared to the larger elapids.


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## TahneeMaree (Sep 10, 2009)

Whoa... there's no way they'd let a rec holder own a tiger! or a collets! OR a death adder!!
AND you can't have crocks on anything other than a demo lisence either...


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

TahneeMaree said:


> Whoa... there's no way they'd let a rec holder own a tiger! or a collets! OR a death adder!!
> AND you can't have crocks on anything other than a demo lisence either...



Those elapids listed are the restricted ones. The rest are not.

As for crocs, they're expressly prohibited elsewhere, but not classed as "restricted."


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

slacker said:


> rbb, if you don't want to take my word for it, no worries, but go check the legislation for yourself. To be blunt, most of those people you speak to at that call center don't know anything about anything.
> 
> Go to http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au and check out the Nature Conservation Regulation 2006 (Wildlife Management). It says:
> 
> ...


 ok then this is my point if thats the case and only these are on the permit 2 like you say ..they they have stuffed up where are the suta Genus? the suta suta is a dangerously venomous species ..even though the other suta punctata isnt ...

in the furina the dunmalls is a dangerously venomous ..but the others are not considered ..see my point that writen leg of vens is crap and like i said i asked about specific species and was told NO all are on lic 2


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> ok then this is my point if thats the case and only these are on the permit 2 like you say ..they they have stuffed up where are the suta Genus? the suta suta is a dangerously venomous species ..even though the other suta punctata isnt ...
> 
> in the furina the dunmalls is a dangerously venomous ..but the others are not considered ..see my point that writen leg of vens is crap and like i said i asked about specific species and was told NO all are on lic 2



Suta suta was until recently regarded as harmless, as I recall. Can't speak for Furina dunmalli.

Look, here's a copy of an email from someone at the EPA when I contacted them about it ages ago. I wanted everything in writing.

I've shown you exactly what the legislation says. I've even linked you to the legislation itself. Here's what I have _in writing_ from the EPA.

_Morning Lee, Let me start by saying how sorry we are about the very late reply on your email. As long has you don’t have anything from the families of Elapidae, Cheloniidae, Dermochelydiae, no fresh or saltwater crocodile, Hydrophiidae, or Laticaudidae you will be fine. If you go to Page 229 Part 11 in the Nature Conservation (Wildlife Management) Regulation 2006 it clearly state what you can and can’t have. www.legislation.gov.au _
_If you require more information please let us know._

_Katrina Theilemann 
Wildlife Co-Ordinator 
Ecoaccess Customer Service Unit 
Environmental Services 
Environmental Protection Agency

_EDIT: Please not that the page number she refers to is no longer correct since a recent revision of the Regulation. The page is now 241-242.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

isnt elapidae what we are talking about here ?


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> isnt elapidae what we are talking about here ?



Yes, but think of the context, rbb. Some elapids are restricted. Some are not. If you don't keep any elapids then you'll not be in breach of your basic permit conditions. True. Doesn't mean you can't keep some elapids. Read the legislation, it's what she's basing her information off anyway.

Does she not also say to check the exact legislation I refer to for an explicit list? Don't just ignore the parts of her email that you don't agree with.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

I know what it says but I know what I got told just two days ago ..so either they stuffed up two days ago ,or who ever wrote you that email stuffed up ..but will ask again myself .


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> I know what it says but I know what I got told just two days ago ..so either they stuffed up two days ago ,or who ever wrote you that email stuffed up ..but will ask again myself .



haha. Don't bother speaking to them, rbb. Most of them know nothing. Personally if I wanted to get some of the elapids not mentioned in that list, I'd go out and get them and if they ever gave me any grief I'd take them to court. It's their own legislation!

Furthermore, would you rather take someone's word (who may or may not know what they're talking about -- hell most people at the EPA think a rough-scaled python is venomous........ and no, I'm not joking), or would you rather go off the _legislation?_ Their word isn't law. The legislation is.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

yeah I know what ya saying slacker ...but it gets confusing and frustrating ...so its seems all legal now to set up an enclosure with a curl snake in my lounge room and a dunmalls in my kitchen not in a locked room ..because they can be on my basic permit


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## TahneeMaree (Sep 10, 2009)

someone should test it... then we'll know for sure


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## cris (Sep 10, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> I know what it says but I know what I got told just two days ago ..so either they stuffed up two days ago ,or who ever wrote you that email stuffed up ..but will ask again myself .



They often say all venomous snakes require the advanced licence, but i think this is because they think venomous automatically means highly dangerous to humans. There is something in the code of practice saying something like this, but that would mean even Colubrids would be restricted...

You can keep Scrub Pythons and large goannas on a rec licence, so i dont really see how any of the elapids not listed are more dangerous.

I was about to buy a marsh snake and the EPA ended up calling me back to say its perfectly OK, although unfortunately the sale didnt go ahead.


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## ivonavich (Sep 10, 2009)

It's funny that the legislation doesn't put a blanket ban on all elapids....
Mmmmmm very interesting....


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

cris said:


> They often say all venomous snakes require the advanced licence, but i think this is because they think venomous automatically means highly dangerous to humans. There is something in the code of practice saying something like this, but that would mean even Colubrids would be restricted...
> 
> You can keep Scrub Pythons and large goannas on a rec licence, so i dont really see how any of the elapids not listed are more dangerous.
> 
> I was about to buy a marsh snake and the EPA ended up calling me back to say its perfectly OK, although unfortunately the sale didnt go ahead.


 I dont doubt what you guys got told but they told me different as in two days ago ..it dont make any sense because there are species of elapid that are not on that list ..that I wouldnt want any newbie keeping ...some are like the SUTA SUTA(curl snake ) are regarded as high ven and yet it seems if what you say is so ,that these are able to be kept on a rec licence ...friggen bizarre :shock:


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## TahneeMaree (Sep 10, 2009)

Loop holes ahoy!
*points off into the distance*


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

Doesn't always make much sense, rbb... I like our licensing system, don't get me wrong, but if things were to be done properly, I don't think newbies should be able to walk out and buy a perentie or a scrubby either. Having said this, I like the fact that if I want to, I can :lol:


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

slacker said:


> Doesn't always make much sense, rbb... I like our licensing system, don't get me wrong, but if things were to be done properly, I don't think newbies should be able to walk out and buy a perentie or a scrubby either. Having said this, I like the fact that if I want to, I can :lol:


 If I had the right setup and plenty of space a perentie would be nice :lol::lol::lol:
but I also know that they are big mother of reps and I should start out with a pygmy first
(am aware of my capabilities)


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## notechistiger (Sep 10, 2009)

ravan said:


> brown trees are classed as colubrids arent they? then yes, colubrids can be kept on a rec licence because they are rear-fanged?



Yes, they are. I was assuming redbelly meant any venomous snakes, however. Not just elapids.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

notechistiger said:


> Yes, they are. I was assuming redbelly meant any venomous snakes, however. Not just elapids.


I was only talking about elapids ...as a class 2 lic ....you got me confused now notechistiger:lol:


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## phac (Sep 10, 2009)

jeremy_88 said:


> All of which are very hard to get a hold of, well I've found anyway..


 
People say that all the time, but i see a fair few class 1 elapids for sale on all the sites. 

I think the real problem is that people say they really want them, but dont want to pay what the sellers are asking for them. Strange.


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## JasonL (Sep 10, 2009)

Gee, and I thought this thread was about DeVis??? not Qld's lic rules 

Yes phac, thats the story with plenty of things, people go gaga over pictures on the net, always saying "put my name down ect" without asking the price first... I have had plenty of people seriously keen on these things, but I plan on holding most of them back for myself to get some good stock, very few people have done much with this species.


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## JasonL (Sep 10, 2009)

a few old pics


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## ryanharvey1993 (Sep 10, 2009)

there nice looking snakes, they do look similar to death adders (pattern anyway) have you got pictures of your dwyers snakes?


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## slacker (Sep 10, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Gee, and I thought this thread was about DeVis??? not Qld's lic rules



Sorry Jason.


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## redbellybite (Sep 10, 2009)

slacker said:


> Sorry Jason.


 x2 but maaaaaaaaateeeee you know how we like to debate issues on APS :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## JasonL (Sep 10, 2009)

Nah, no pics of the Dwyers as yet, yes slack I know...and they are ral lookers too... maybe I'm jussed pissed at them for biting me :lol: 
No worries Slacker, I'm never concerned about offbeat posts... but 2 pages of  lol.


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## Jonno from ERD (Sep 11, 2009)

G'day guys,

As much as it pains me to admit it - Redbellybite is right. The legislation, like any government legislation, has so many loop holes, contradictions and just plain confusing crap in it. The legislation that Lee is quoting does specify most of the "dangerous" species of elapids, but in another section of legislation, there is a blanket ban on all elapids on a recreational permit. I had to chase this up last year for somebody who wanted Whips.


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## JasonL (Sep 12, 2009)

Here you go Ryan, what do you think of this little nutter.... they are crazy angry little things.


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## redbellybite (Sep 12, 2009)

Jonno from ERD said:


> G'day guys,
> 
> As much as it pains me to admit it - Redbellybite is right. The legislation, like any government legislation, has so many loop holes, contradictions and just plain confusing crap in it. The legislation that Lee is quoting does specify most of the "dangerous" species of elapids, but in another section of legislation, there is a blanket ban on all elapids on a recreational permit. I had to chase this up last year for somebody who wanted Whips.


 I know your pain ...when I have to agree with you too Jonno :lol::lol::lol::lol:
but as (mature adults:lol we have to put that away and agree when its appropriate ....

And as much as its immature I TOLD YOU SLACKER AND CRIS na na nee na na


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## redbellybite (Sep 12, 2009)

Jason love it ..are they really tempremental?


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## JasonL (Sep 12, 2009)

They are really calm....as long as they are stone cold :lol: I almost lost the other one getting these pics as it jumped out of the tub and was thrashing all over the shop, almost made it under the racks...


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## redbellybite (Sep 12, 2009)

JasonL said:


> They are really calm....as long as they are stone cold:lol:.


 HA HA yeah that seems to work on most vens now ....but you have got some nice looking reps Jason ..


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## cris (Sep 12, 2009)

Nice 'Mud Adders' Jason 



Jonno from ERD said:


> G'day guys,
> 
> As much as it pains me to admit it - Redbellybite is right. The legislation, like any government legislation, has so many loop holes, contradictions and just plain confusing crap in it. The legislation that Lee is quoting does specify most of the "dangerous" species of elapids, but in another section of legislation, there is a blanket ban on all elapids on a recreational permit. I had to chase this up last year for somebody who wanted Whips.



What legislation is it in? I have quoted the part of the code of practice i was refering to. Is following the code of practice a legal requirement?


> Dangerous or venomous snakes may only be kept by experienced people who have been issued with the relevant authority to keep restricted species.


If this is correct it would also apply to colubrids such as tree snakes.


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## slacker (Sep 12, 2009)

Jonno from ERD said:


> As much as it pains me to admit it - Redbellybite is right.


 :lol:



Jonno from ERD said:


> but in another section of legislation, there is a blanket ban on all elapids on a recreational permit.



Do you remember where this is in the legislation? I'd like to read it.

Cheers,
Lee

PS: Sorry again JasonL :lol:


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## slacker (Sep 12, 2009)

Okay, I concede, I was wrong it seems. For those interested, the relevant information can be found on page 80 of the Nature Conservation (Wildlife Management) Regulation 2006.


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## redbellybite (Sep 12, 2009)

slacker said:


> Okay, I concede, I was wrong it seems. For those interested, the relevant information can be found on page 80 of the Nature Conservation (Wildlife Management) Regulation 2006.


 and where is my 'i'AM NOT WORTHY and your getting down on one knee and begging me to forgive you lmao" ...oh and yeah better include Jonno in on that as he was the one that pointed it out too ....' anyway believe me if Jonno could prove me wrong he would and he loves doing it he would be the first to say NA NA NEE NA NA :lol::lol::lol:


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## cris (Sep 12, 2009)

slacker said:


> Okay, I concede, I was wrong it seems. For those interested, the relevant information can be found on page 80 of the Nature Conservation (Wildlife Management) Regulation 2006.



I dont see anything relevant on page 80, what does it say about not keeping Elapids or venomous snakes on a recreational licence?


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## slacker (Sep 12, 2009)

cris said:


> I dont see anything relevant on page 80, what does it say?



Make sure you're looking at the 'real page 80' rather than what Adobe Acrobat PDF reader thinks is page 80. It says, down the bottom (in reference to recreational licenses):

(2) Also, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence for a live
protected animal other than a restricted animal, or a relevant
person for the holder, may also keep and use, at the licensed
premises for the licence—
(a) if the licence is a recreational wildlife licence for birds—1 or 2 birds that are a restricted animal; or​*(b) if the licence is a recreational wildlife licence for reptiles and amphibians—1 or 2 reptiles that are a restricted animal, other than reptiles of the family Elapidae, Hydrophiidae or Laticaudidae.*​


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## cris (Sep 12, 2009)

slacker said:


> Make sure you're looking at the 'real page 80' rather than what Adobe Acrobat PDF reader thinks is page 80. It says, down the bottom (in reference to recreational licenses):
> 
> (2) Also, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence for a live
> protected animal other than a restricted animal, or a relevant
> ...



My understanding is that this means that restricted Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence, but you could keep up to 2 restricted reptiles such as womas. It does not say that Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence. The relevant legislation would be related to what is and isnt a restricted reptile, which you would think would be consistant with the rules they send you...


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## butters (Sep 12, 2009)

I agree Chris (and have had it verified by Ecoaccess) read it again Slacker. That clause only applies to restricted animals from those families not to animals that aren't on the restricted list.

I have been through the same process and when I finally was put onto someone who could read the legislation(5th person) they agreed that it is possible to hold any elapid not specifically stated in the legislation on a recreational permit. I pointed out all of the sections that have been highlighted in this thread to them. In fact their exact words were "You are quite welcome to hold one of those species on your permit as long as they don't apper on the restricted list". 

They don't encourage it and they don't promote the fact.

You need to speak to the right people in EPA.



When dealing with EPA here in Queensland you really need to speak to the people who actually are familiar with the legislation not the poor souls answering the phones. One of them tried to tell me that a brown tree snake is a type of elapid and when I pointed out their error said "oh well a colubrid is a type of elapid anyway"

Cheers Andrew


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## slacker (Sep 12, 2009)

cris said:


> My understanding is that this means that restricted Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence, but you could keep up to 2 restricted reptiles such as womas. It does not say that Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence. The relevant legislation would be related to what is and isnt a restricted reptile, which you would think would be consistant with the rules they send you...



I had to read your post about five times before it made sense. It read like a contradiction. But yes, now that I see what you're getting at, it is ambiguous. One could argue that that point only applies to _restricted elapids_ but one could also infer that it is a blanket restriction on _all_ elapids.

After your post, and re-reading that, I'm back to where I begin. I think it is legal, with the exception of the explicitly stated exceptions. Even if that's _not_ what they meant, I'm sure it could be argued easily in court.

Oh and to rbb.... I was wrong before when I said you could keep _dunmalli_ regardless. They would be restricted elapids due to their conservation status, if I am not mistaken.

PS: Sorry again Jason. I think all of these posts should be split off into a new thread if one of the mods can be bothered.

PPS: Yes, they're terrible Andrew. One them tried to tell me a rough-scaled python is venomous.

-Lee


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## redbellybite (Sep 12, 2009)

GUYS GUYS GUYS ....DO YOURSELF A FAVOUR ring the number and ask again on Monday ,if you can keep lesser vens on a rec permit ....if I had a set to bet they'd be on the table right now ,with yours and on Monday afternoon I would end up with two extra sets ...like I said Jonno loves to prove me wrong and if he can he does ..but he knows I am right about QLD's vens regulations ,,,regardless of how you want to interpret it ,you will find the answer will be a big fat NO to vens on a rec permit...and Jason technically this is still about those vens


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## Kersten (Sep 12, 2009)

Gorgeous DeVis', they look like they're in great condition. Good luck with the mating.


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## Jonno from ERD (Sep 12, 2009)

G'day guys,

It pays to get any ruling from the EPA in writing...generally they are a lot less enthusiastic to deliver a personal interpretation of some ambiguous legislation if there is the chance of some sort of accountability involved. If you do get it in writing, then by all means go for gold!


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## butters (Sep 13, 2009)

There is really nothing ambiguous about that clause in the act. It specifically refers to restricted reptiles.

If you have no preconceived ideas that all elapids are automatically not allowed on a recreational permit then there is no other way to read it. If you already think that elapids aren't allowed then you could read it incorrectly...but read it again and look at the wording.

The legislation also clearly states which species are restricted. A Mud Adder is not on the list.

Redbellybite- I don't need to call them again to make sure. I have called them numerous times and after reviewing the act with them the answer has always been the same. You can keep non restricted reptiles on a recreational permit. That includes any elapids not specifically stated in the act.

Why don't you call them tomorrow? But rather than just accepting what they say straight up..which will invariably be no ( they have the same preconcieved ideas that you do)... then ask them to show you exactly where in the act it says you can't keep a Devis snake for example. Have a copy of the act in front of you and go through all the relevant points with them. Also have the species name of the animal you want to ask about ..in this case _Denisonia devisi_ so you can compare it to the list with them.

There is nowhere in the act that prohibits you from keeping that species on a rec permit.

Actually Jonno you probably should do the exercise as well using the information and approach given above and see what answer you get. After all you are in the business of educating people in all things reptilian and it would be nice to make sure you have the right information. Do not just take no for an answer though until they can show you exactly where it states in the legislation you can't keep a mud adder specifically. Don't call it a mud adder though...use the common name of Devis Banded Snake and the species name only. They could get confused and think it was a real adder which is definitely not allowed.

That is not to say that just anyone should keep any of the non restricted small elapids. They can be alot of work in feeding and they shouldn't be treated any less seriously than a dangerous elapid. They are still venomous and a bite should be taken seriously.

Sorry Jason for going so far off track but ...in a way.. this is still about mud adders. Its just branched out into the legality of keeping them here in Queensland on a Rec permit. I also don't like people blindly accepting information just because such and such said so. 

I don't personally keep them but a friend does and you are right in saying they can be fast when they want to be. One minute they appear just like a real adder sitting like a lump...next second they are wriggling uncontrollably across the floor and your heart is in your mouth as they head towards a place you know will be hard to retrieve them from.

If I could find someone that breeds them, was willing to part with them and was willing to ship to Brisbane I would have some in a flash.

Do the exercise guys in the way I have stated above and see what the result is. Remember they will say no initially but review the act with them and see what they say.

I have already done it numerous times.

Cheers Andrew


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## redbellybite (Sep 13, 2009)

so then answer me this Butters if you say this is so ...as I quoted about the genus SUTA..it is not mentioned on the restricted reptile list ...but the curl snake or (Suta suta) IS A HIGH VENOMOUS snake ,unlike the little spotted snake (suta punctata)..The Demansia genus isnt on the list ,so you saying that it is quite ok for a newbie to keep a greater black whip or even the lesser black whip? ..the furina isnt on the list ,so a dunmalls would be ok to have when your a newbie huh? as I said before if you can show us that you have non restricted vens on a rec permit in QLD show us ,I am sure we all would love to dispute this with the EPA ..anyone in QLD that has a rec permit with any type of elapid on it please show us ...


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## butters (Sep 13, 2009)

I have't said this is so. The act clearly states what is and what isn't allowed. Has nothing to do with what I have said or what I think is right.

Nowhere did I state that it is OK for a newbie to have any of those species. Just like your reading of the act can you tell me exactly where I have said this? It would be stupid for a newbie to get any of those species but that doesn't mean it is not allowed under the legislation. There are plenty of people with rec licenses who are not newbies too.

I am not arguing whether or not a newbie should have one but whether or not the act allows for it. You have added that in all by yourself.

I know a lot of people who have a specialist license and keep dangerous vens but that does not mean that those particular people should be keeping vens either. In fact a lot of them shouldn't be allowed to IMO.

This isn't about who does or doesn't have vens on a rec permit but whether the legislation allows for it. Just because no one claims to have them on a rec permit doesn't mean it isn't allowed.

What I have or don't have is nobody but EPA's business and mine. Even if I had non restricted elapids on a rec permit would you believe me if I said so.........probably not.

Make the call in the manner I have suggested . Be prepared to meet resistance but go through the act with them and see what they say. Ask them to show you where in the act it says you can't. I already know the answer but you seem to refuse to believe and I am not sure why.

Cheers Andrew


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## redbellybite (Sep 13, 2009)

butters said:


> I have't said this is so. The act clearly states what is and what isn't allowed. Has nothing to do with what I have said or what I think is right.
> 
> Nowhere did I state that it is OK for a newbie to have any of those species. Just like your reading of the act can you tell me exactly where I have said this? It would be stupid for a newbie to get any of those species but that doesn't mean it is not allowed under the legislation. There are plenty of people with rec licenses who are not newbies too.
> 
> ...


 I see what it says Andrew ..and I know how it is written ,but as I did specify on some species that were not mentioned on the list ,she actually put me on hold as she wasnt sure herself ,but when she came back to the phone ,she told me that all elapids are on that restriction ,seems like they need to either refresh their ideas of what type of vens or do a new legislation that says blanket ban on all vens ..I agree with you its not clear in writting ,but I only asked as late as last week and was told no ...


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## butters (Sep 13, 2009)

And as you accepted no and were happy with that......the answer remained no even though that is not what is written in the legislation. They have preconceived ideas just like you until you actually read the act.

At the end of the day EPA is there to enforce the act not preconceived ideas that may not be correct.

Call and ask to be shown exactly where it says you can't. Don't ask if you can keep elapids on a rec permit..ask if you can keep a yellow faced whip...and ask them to specifically show you where it says you can't. The fact that it is an elapid is irrelevant to the act. What is relevant is whether or not it appears on the restricted or threatened list.

Then when they can't find anywhere ask does that mean I can under the act.

I would love to see them show you an actual passage in the act that says you can't.

Work out what it costs for a rec permit for 5 years...work out what it costs for a specialist permit for 5 years and you will see why they would rather you get the specialist permit even though it is not specifically required.

Cheers Andrew


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## butters (Sep 13, 2009)

At the end of the day an adult lace monitor is a far bigger threat than a marsh snake to most people and you can keep that on a rec permit without anyone batting an eye.

Cheers Andrew


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