# black and white jungles



## boris (Dec 9, 2007)

Does eneyone know if u can get black and white jungles in australia? and how much would u be looking at for one morelia spilota variegate on the net i have found 2 pepole that breed them but not in australia


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## natrix (Dec 9, 2007)

I think a few people breed them in Aus.
Indicus has bred some incredible looking ones.
Type 'Black & white Jungle' into the search funtion & some should come up.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 9, 2007)

Yes there are a few breeders here but not many, good ones are often over 1k each as hatchies. Be careful of buying black and golds that havn't coloured up yet, as some people try to pass these off as b&w's.


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## Jozz (Dec 9, 2007)

Ultimagte Reptiles - Tim Mensforth breeds black and white cape tribs I think?


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## indicus (Dec 10, 2007)

Hi Boris,
At the moment 'true' B/W's are still few and far between in any number in Australia.
Due to the low numbers held; reflects their rather high price; compared to other area form jungles.
You'll be able to purchase them this season from $2000-$1200; pending the line they originated from; over-all
colour, pattern etc.
I'm rather excited at the moment; as the best breeders I own; are of age;
and bred for the first time this year.....
I'm 8 days away (give or take) from seeing the first clutch hatch; from this pairing.
The male is pictured laying on the lawn (late afternoon shot)....no colour enhancement for either photo.
The female pictured in the 'crows-nest' is a little out of focus; but gives you an idea;
her colour after a shed; has to be seen; to truly believe how beautiful she is.
They really are an interesting form; which I believe will become very popular in the future;
as the breeders who work with them; are only starting to see; just how B/W some of them can really be....
It's still early days; and I can see some absolutely stunning looking animals produced in the very near future.
All the best


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## caustichumor (Dec 10, 2007)

Beautiful pythons Indicus, that's why people want the black and whites. Stunning!


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## Vala (Dec 10, 2007)

wow their amazing! what color would you get if you bred a black & gold to a black & white?


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## Colin (Dec 10, 2007)

Vala said:


> wow their amazing! what color would you get if you bred a black & gold to a black & white?



(imo) probably a dirty in between colour that wouldn't be anywhere near as good as either the B&W's or the B&G's 

why would you want to do that for in the first place?


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## Vala (Dec 10, 2007)

Colin said:


> (imo) probably a dirty in between colour that wouldn't be anywhere near as good as either the B&W's or the B&G's
> 
> why would you want to do that for in the first place?



I wouldn't want to do it, I was just wondering if you'd get a mix of the two colours or some weird colour in between. I think they are stunning they way they are at the minute


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## stevel (Dec 10, 2007)

indicus said:


> Hi Boris,
> At the moment 'true' B/W's are still few and far between in any number in Australia.
> Due to the low numbers held; reflects their rather high price; compared to other area form jungles.
> You'll be able to purchase them this season from $2000-$1200; pending the line they originated from; over-all
> ...


awsome i would be tempted to cross a male to a darwin albino and get some nice snow carpets 

*ducks from the purist*******


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## steve6610 (Dec 10, 2007)

hi boris, i have a pair of tremains from last season, they are stunners, i've already ordered another f/m for this season, you won't be dissapointed, 













took these pics the other day, but they were both coming up to shed so weren't looking there best........


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## Retic (Dec 10, 2007)

You get snows from breeding albinos to hypos, B&W Jungles aren't Hypo and most also have brown/orange/red/yellow in them. 



stevel said:


> awsome i would be tempted to cross a male to a darwin albino and get some nice snow carpets
> 
> *ducks from the purist*******


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## lector (Dec 10, 2007)

seconded


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## mrsshep77 (Dec 10, 2007)

Awwww man those are some hot jungles Tree & Steve!!!!! 
Can't wait to see what they produce this year.... we want pics as soon as it happens ok!!!


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## NCHERPS (Dec 10, 2007)

boa said:


> You get snows from breeding albinos to hypos, B&W Jungles aren't Hypo and most also have brown/orange/red/yellow in them.



Actually you get snows from breeding Axanthic(Having no yellow) to a albino, producing double hets, and then breeding them together to produce a few snows in a large clutch if your lucky.

Remember, hypo's can still contain yellow, so you wouldn't get a snow from that breeding.

Cheers
Neil


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## salebrosus (Dec 10, 2007)

I love your jungles Tremain, they are stunning.

Simone.


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## Retic (Dec 10, 2007)

DOH, thanks Neil. yes I know as I was only talking about this the other day. Fingers too fast for brain :lol: I meant that they had no yellow as I went on to say they do have other colours.



NCHERPS said:


> Actually you get snows from breeding Axanthic(Having no yellow) to a albino, producing double hets, and then breeding them together to produce a few snows in a large clutch if your lucky.
> 
> Remember, hypo's can still contain yellow, so you wouldn't get a snow from that breeding.
> 
> ...


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## zulu (Dec 10, 2007)

*re black*

Crazy stunning looking things those BWs indicus has,cant believe how good they come out in the pics!


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## natrix (Dec 10, 2007)

They're Classic , wow .


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## beardy_boy99 (Dec 10, 2007)

INdicus i cant explain in words how nice those jungles are. PLease dont post them again. I, and im sure other people do to, get so jealous hahahahalololololol. . THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY STUNNING!!!!!Are they for the new AMAZINGLY STUNNING outdoor enclosure you built.
Cheers


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## beardy_boy99 (Dec 10, 2007)

beardy_boy99 said:


> PLease dont post them again. I, and im sure other people do to, get so jealous hahahahalololololol.


 
Lol i _was_ joking, please post them some moreCheers


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## SnakePower (Dec 10, 2007)

Just another example of B&W jungle being bred here in Australia...

This one might be a good one for a snow project! lol.  No yellow/browns etc..
Maybe someone already has tried !!?? (see other thread Albino jungles)


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## Troy K. (Dec 11, 2007)

Very nice looking snakes Indicus. I think I just found the next lot of snakes to put on my shopping list


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## indicus (Dec 11, 2007)

Just a few more pictures for those that like the B/W jungles.... 
Some of the nicer ones that were held back from last breeding season.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how they colour up as they age.....
That ivory is a stunner Snakepower 8)


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## indicus (Dec 11, 2007)

And a few more.....  :lol:
Yes beardy boy; hopefully a few will make it to the new cage


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## URS (Dec 11, 2007)

Indicus the hold backs are looking good mate.

Regards Tim
www.ultimatereptiles.com.au


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## caustichumor (Dec 11, 2007)

Beautiful animals, That last one looks a bit capey?


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## Australis (Dec 11, 2007)

Indicus,

Your photos are argument enough
for locality Morelia.
Well done.


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## stevel (Dec 11, 2007)

boa said:


> You get snows from breeding albinos to hypos, B&W Jungles aren't Hypo and most also have brown/orange/red/yellow in them.



ermmm >?????


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## stevel (Dec 11, 2007)

indicus said:


> Just a few more pictures for those that like the B/W jungles....
> Some of the nicer ones that were held back from last breeding season.
> I'm really looking forward to seeing how they colour up as they age.....
> That ivory is a stunner Snakepower 8)



hi m8 these are absolutely stuning can you give me some back ground info on them cheers????


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## Retic (Dec 11, 2007)

Steve, read the rest of the thread, as I said fingers into gear before brain out of neutral. 



stevel said:


> ermmm >?????


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## SnakePower (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks Tremain, I appreciate the compliment on him!
As usual, your snakes are a credit to the hobby, in particular, the B&W jungles  Great pics too mate!! 

Zac.


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## snakeitup (Dec 11, 2007)

Tree, the second animal of the 4 pics has a trick head pattern, great choice to hold those stunners back.
James


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## Tristis (Dec 11, 2007)

very nice Tree. ill have to get some pics of mine


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## waruikazi (Dec 11, 2007)

DOes anyone have any pics of B/W's when they are 5 or 6 years old? Do they keep the crisp white colour or do they go a light brown?


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## Troy K. (Dec 11, 2007)

Good question Waruikazi, I was just about to ask the same thing.


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## rexs1 (Dec 11, 2007)

Once again Tree, absolutely TOP SHELF. cheers


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## stevel (Dec 11, 2007)

boa said:


> Steve, read the rest of the thread, as I said fingers into gear before brain out of neutral.



sorry dude i skim read this lol


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## blackghost (Dec 12, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> DOes anyone have any pics of B/W's when they are 5 or 6 years old? Do they keep the crisp white colour or do they go a light brown?


 

B&W Julatten's actually reach their peak in colours and markings at 3 years of age. Then from about 4-5 years they do start to lose their sparkle, or otherwise fade in colour, but their still damn beautiful!

I think I'm pretty close to the ball, but if not Indicus might like to correct me on this as he has the most experience with these guys.

blackghost


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## BROWNS (Dec 12, 2007)

Absolutely stunning treedude,can't wait to see what comes from this seasons pairings there should be some real HOT striped and great coloured animals coming from several of your pairings no doubt!!

Here's some pics of my young male and female who both just recently shed.The girls been quite a finicky feeder but she'll get there soon enough.The male's looking top[s,very hard to get true colour in a pic but these are pretty close and the female is a shed or 2 behind the male and i'm sure will start colouring up a bit more with a few more sheds,i hope you like them..Also added a pic of my 7-8 year old adult female still looking HOT as ever!!!

Sorry they aren't the nicest of pics with natuaral backgrounds but i don't handle any of my snakes unless i have to for quarantine reasons,i've learnt my lesson but the quality of the jungles speaks for themselves,the rarest jungle genes in the hobby at present!!


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## indicus (Dec 12, 2007)

Thanks for the kind comments everyone; it will be interesting to see what the future holds for this
interesting form of jungle.
I also look forward to seeing what the selective breeding of the 'ivories' produces......
Ivories?...A term given to the lighter B/Y type jungles; some; as seen in awesome example Snake Powers posted 8);
are very nice.....these can occur in clutchs of B/G's; the most noted wild locality; being Tully form jungles;
although; other areas are seen to produce these 'ivories'
How are yours looking Tristis?; I'd like to see some pictures; if and when you get a chance 

I've included some information; that may help shed some 'light'; on B/W's; for those that are not familiar with this form.

B/W jungles can come in all shades of B/W; silver; grey; brown; yellow and even orange.
Just like B/G's can also appear in all shades of gold; yellow; through to oranges; browns etc etc.
As with all forms of jungles; the variation within a clutch can be quite astounding;
to the point some juveniles may in fact appear to be from a completely different line.
Breeders often try to hold back young that display traits; that they may hope to reproduce in the future.
As all Jungle breeders can agree; to pick a juvenile from a clutch can often be considered 'pot luck'
The colour change from juvenile to adult can be extreme to say the least.
The breeder is often in the best position to give some indication as to the eventual adult colour a juvenile may attain;
even then it could be considered an educated guess at best.

To grasp a simple understanding of the variation to be found in B/W's;
one must first look at the locality where these animals are seen to occur in the wild......
The 'true' B/W form is found in small fragmented population densities.
From the northern end of the Atherton Tablelands....Julatten; perched on the edge of the Tableland escarpment;
then falling down from the highlands to Mossman on the coast;
heading north across the Daintree River to northern side of Cape Tribulation; makes up the range of 'true' B/W forms.
The habitat within and around this area; is as varied; as to are the jungle python's.
The highland rainforests on top of the escarpment; are closely bordered by dry open timberland flowing in from the western tablelands.
Its where these two types of habitat meet; is of most interest.
'Locality form jungles' (a term I rather use) can be seen to display considerable colour variance within these areas;
B/W forms occur along side B/G's and every colour in between.
Some of these 'open forest jungles' (another term I prefer to use); may in fact produce B/W type animals?
Having said that; the question is; ' what percentage of young will these animals produce per clutch; that will actually be B/W; if any?'
Considering these points; may help explain why?; one may end up with a few oddities in a B/W to B/W pairing.
The same conclusion can be made with B/W animals occurring on the coast..... 
Still to this day; the best wild black and yellow form animal I've ever seen in the wild; was from Port Douglas;
which is about 20kms (give or take; if ) just south of Mossman.........interesting.

So far; I've been relatively lucky; as most of the young I've produced; appear to be colouring up quite well; distinctly B/W in over all appearance.
No doubt; some will be better then others; that's the nature of jungles.
The original B/W to B/W pairing which makes up most of my line (zoo stock); produced twelve young;
of which; only one was yellowish in body colour (as per picture)
The first two adults i posted in this thread are coming onto four years of age; 
(maybe the peak in reagards their colour?) 

IMO: -The best B/W's are predominately B/W in over all body colour; with nice gold/yellowish blotches down the side.

It's at this point; I feel the reader be 'aware' when looking into purchasing B/W jungles.....
Due to a relatively high price; and demand; we often see 'Cape Yorks' being falsely advertised; as B/W's.
Some of these young Cape Yorks juveniles can; and often do appear quite B/W;
but will change; browns, oranges etc becoming apparent with age.
Ask to see photo's of the breeders adults?; question the breeders knowledge on B/W's?.
Feel free to question those with experience with this form....it may just save you being disappointed later.
B/W's are; and will only ever be as good as the line they originate from....

The pictures as follows;
1- Six B/W sub-adults; one of which is yellowish in colour.
2-B/W female which is around 14 years of age; produced for the first time last season; and again this year;
.......will get some up-dated pictures soon.
3-'Open forest jungle'
4-'Open forest jungle'


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## BROWNS (Dec 12, 2007)

Here's my adult female,couldn't put any more pics in the last post..



blackghost just wondering how you came to the conclusion they look their best at 3 years old etc?Have you owned them from hatchies up to and past this age,not having a dig just wanting to know how you formed your opinion on that?


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## indicus (Dec 12, 2007)

Looking very nice Browns.....damn; last time I ever let you visit :lol:
Look forward to seeing how they colour up; well done mate.
Just as an example of stunning looking Cape Yorks; that can appear B/W (not unusual)
Heres a picture of a yearling; taken in my mice/rat shed...was quite B/W appearance; when younger.
Now a year later; the same snake; obliviously enjoying the frequent visits 
Note how it is darkening; and the orange/brown on the sides is becoming more oblivious with age.


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## deebo (Dec 12, 2007)

indicus - if the b&w jungles are born b&w can they get any yellow coming into them as they age? Also i really like those pics of the open forest jungles, especially the last one.

i dread to think how many bites you suffered picking up all six of the jungles tangled together in the first picture!!

Cheers,
Dave


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## Hetty (Dec 12, 2007)

That still looks black and white to me Indicus, the snake could be half way through the shed-cycle, whereas the pictures you take of the Julattens are probably just after sloughing?

I've attached three photos of a Cape York, first one about three weeks after sloughing, the other two just after sloughing. This animal is a yearling.


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## indicus (Dec 12, 2007)

Yes David; they often do end up with nice yellow blotchs on the sides as they age....
this is a common trait seen in B/W jungles.
Thats a very nice Cape Yorker indeed; The Nothing.
The Cape i posted; has actually just shed; and decided to help itself to feed last night.
Believe me when i say; to see it in the flesh; it does in fact have brown/orange showing;
and doesnt resemble a B/W jungle at all.......
I often see it; and am sure; we'll notice the change in colour; in the coming year.
Most of the yearling's i posted; are as they are....various stages of growth; shed cycles etc.
The two breeders i posted to begin with; have just shed at the time the pictures were taken.
The Nothing; i'd be very interested in seeing the adults that produced your Cape York yearling?
I really hope it holds it colour for you; either way a nice snake


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## Hetty (Dec 12, 2007)

I didn't breed the snake and haven't seen her parents. I have seen a few older animals from the same line that look very nice and have held their colour and clean pattern well.


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## indicus (Dec 12, 2007)

I'm pretty sure i know the line your refering to.....
And from some pictures of yearling's which i've had the pleasure to see; have been rather nice to.
I'm at a loss; why the breeder will not supply any adult pictures?; as i'm interested to see what produced them.
I've asked several people in relation to these animals; if they could get hold of some pictures for me;
to no-avail; as yet....i can live in hope 
Either way; your animal is very attractive 8)


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## BIG RYANO (Dec 12, 2007)

Indicus, I know how you feel but Shane will show anyone who comes to his house the adults. Or if someone is buying any off him he'll send them photos of the adults no probs. But he wont post photos up on the net just because some people are interested in what they look like. He also has more than one pair of adults. They really are stunning animals in their own right.


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## indicus (Dec 12, 2007)

Big Ryano.
it's interesting; you assumed who i was talking about.
I can understand some people being private; thats understandable.
Yes; i am curious to see some of Shane's adult pictures.....be most helpful if i wish to purchase some. 
If he doesn't wish to ever post any; i'd really like it; if at all possible; if you; or he; may be able to forward some; info and pictures to; [email protected] 
I'm not interested to see his NEW adults; but the ones that produced those stunners last season.
Thanks kindly for your help


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## BROWNS (Dec 12, 2007)

I find it so interesting that nobody will ever put up adult pics from this line of Shanes,if they throw such stunning offspring they must be good loking adults or are they?

Could anyone even give some information on adult size and colour at all??I too have been hanging to see the parents of these and have been told about them in person by a friend who says they're quite large animals with big boofy heads would be interested in seeing exactly what they look like too,cheers?


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## will.i.am (Dec 12, 2007)

B -E -A utiful pythons indicus wish i had some oneday


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## boris (Dec 13, 2007)

grate b&W pic and info iam to get my hands on these snakes one day thay look sick


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## ihaveherps (Dec 13, 2007)

Thought I may as well add a pic pf some of Indicus' handywork, Im a bit of a monkey behind a camera, and out of the 1000's of attempts I have 2 pics Im proud of, just glad it was one of these that actually stuck...


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## waruikazi (Dec 14, 2007)

Nice pic you monkey!


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## Southside Morelia (Dec 14, 2007)

That's not a monkey, it's a snake, are you guys blind? lol
BTW, i,m hoping to get my first B&W soon....anyone got one forsale, seriously?
PM with details, serious sellers only!
Cheers
Scott


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## Tristis (Dec 14, 2007)

one of mine


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## MannyM (Dec 14, 2007)

Gorgeous! Love the B&W jungles that are just that, Black and White. Not too much of a fan of those with grey down their back, or yellow blotches.

I'd love one as distinct in colouration as yours Tristis.


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## indicus (Dec 14, 2007)

Looking very nice I have Herps & Tristis 8);
Thanks so much for sharing....awesome.
Any one else like to share?
I should have juv's available early in the New Year; if anyone's interested.
I was asked to post some more pictures.... enjoy mate 
I agree; some are extremely hard to photograph;
Some appear to be fake; regardless of lighting.
These pictures have not been doctored in any way;
other then cropping; border etc....if they look 'Fake' in regards
colour; well they really are crazy B/W's ......bent looking animals in the flesh.


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## ihaveherps (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks Indicus, they are looking alot beter these days.... the pic is about 6 months old, and wasnt just shed or anything, just in focus, lol.


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## blackghost (Dec 14, 2007)

Full credits to ya Indicus, they really are stunning.

Here are a few shots of ours just hanging around on the clothes line. 

She's only about 10 months old, but you can already see the potential....


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## NickM (Dec 15, 2007)

Unbeleivable animals, I am very envious being in the US. I also have a B+W line but its all been from selective breeding. I would kill for some locality black and whites.

This is a picture of one of my hold backs from this year. I have been refining this look for 4 genrerations and 12 years. With each generation it gets a little more stable and predictable. I think one or two more generations should do it. I kept back my entire clutch this eyar to see how they develope.

Nick


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## stevel (Dec 15, 2007)

indicus said:


> Looking very nice I have Herps & Tristis 8);
> Thanks so much for sharing....awesome.
> Any one else like to share?
> I should have juv's available early in the New Year; if anyone's interested.
> ...



UNBELEIVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


GIMMMEEE


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## Tristis (Dec 15, 2007)

its very hard to get a good pic with there true colour, this one looks like a coastal in the pic. but its just as white as the other one.


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## Tojo (Dec 15, 2007)

Got to love the b/w jungles!Thanks for sharing your pics,as well as being very informative people ,their are some stunners getting around!


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## blackghost (Dec 15, 2007)

Here's another one of our juvie males named Amazon....


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## stevel (Dec 15, 2007)

Black and whites are better than jags for me even though i love jags 

i want some !!


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## hugsta (Dec 15, 2007)

Silly computer playing up...LOL.:?:lol:


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## hugsta (Dec 15, 2007)

BROWNS said:


> I find it so interesting that nobody will ever put up adult pics from this line of Shanes,if they throw such stunning offspring they must be good loking adults or are they?
> 
> Could anyone even give some information on adult size and colour at all??I too have been hanging to see the parents of these and have been told about them in person by a friend who says they're quite large animals with big boofy heads would be interested in seeing exactly what they look like too,cheers?


 
They are about 6ft long, a quite a stocky animal. In fact, they wouldn't be that much bigger in size to the lines you guys have. I have seen adult B&Ws and was suprised as to how large they were. The B&Ws I have seen are siblings to the lines Tremain is working with. As for how shanes animals look, here is a pic of a 4 year old animal which was given away to a kid and ended up in the hands of friend. It was the worst in the clutch. Most animals have previously been sold to young kids, and no one has line bred with these animals to see what they can produce in the future, somthing I am planning on doing. This seasons hatchies will only be the fourth clutch form the female, so there are not many around at this stage.

After much hunting for a locality on them, it seems they were originally caught in the northern part of the Daintree National Park. Cape tribulation being the nearest known locality, hence the name. The comment originally stated they were from southern Cape York, but that was it. Cape Trib is in southern cape york and below is a pic of what is regarded as the Cape York Peninsula. Daintree is definately in Southern Cape York.

I suppose when it is all said and done, both lines of B&Ws are nice and both command high prices due to demand. Some people are fussed with locality and others aren't. Regardless of where they came from, and this applies to any animal, people will pay for a nice snake. I sometimes believe people put too much emphasis on specific localities and jungles are a prime example. Yes, you get variations in them, but the locality comes from wherever you catch them. You could put an 80km radius around Cairns and have 10 different jungle forms. Stimmies are also becoming like them with so many new localities, but sometimes with very little variation. The same could be done with diamonds, "this is a Kenthurst diamond and this is a Waterfall diamond, and this high yellow diamond that came from terry Hills" Don't get me wrong, I like locality animals, but have often bought animals on the fact that they are what they are with disregard for their true locality. As long as they are not mixed or crossed I am happy.

These B&Ws may not be quite as B&W as some of your examples, but not all of yours are pure black and white, some of them have mixed in colours, as does Shanes line. As you said, there are a lot of variations in jungles and I am sure you can see my poimt of view.

Don't get me wrong, yours are stunning examples of B&Ws that I would love to have in my collection one day.

Cheers
Daz


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## steve6610 (Dec 16, 2007)

hey daz, i'm not getting involved with the location stuff, but i like the colour on the first 2 pics, very nice, i'd like a couple that colour no matter what they were called...........


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## Allan (Dec 16, 2007)

It is amazing how jungles change from average juvenils to stunning yearlings and two/three year olds, only to later in life fade away (the colours)
This little girl was born black and yellow with white sides, than went almost black and white and now in her third year some beige is creeping through dorsally.


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## ad (Dec 16, 2007)

A top pic of a top animal,


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## snakeitup (Dec 16, 2007)

Thats such a hot snake Ad, love the all white end of tail. two thumbs up my friend


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## ad (Dec 16, 2007)

hey snakeitup,
that is one of Tremain's animals, I can only take credit for the pic. lol
it was taken some time ago - 2003 maybe,
ice white - such a contrast to your avatar (hot b/g btw)
Cheers
Adam


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## snakeitup (Dec 16, 2007)

Yeah, Tree is on a good wicket with his b/w's there incredible


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## BROWNS (Dec 16, 2007)

I hear what you're saying Hugsta and have absolutely nothing against Shanes animals,the juvenile pics i've seen of some have been spectacular hence the reason i am so keen to see what they're like as adults.Tremain has several lines and has only bred from the same lines as you have seen yourself this season and for the first time with no selective breeding going into any of these lines the previous season included.The pic ad just posted sired a clutch or is the mother"either or" of one clutch from this season and still looking top notch as sen in the pics originally posted.Afew of indicus's animals are very small 4-4 1/2 footers and my adult isn't much over 4 foot either.The lines you have seen and indicus has bred for the first time this season do seem to be a bit bigger but also been fed quite well,however definitely a bit bigger than a few of the other lines he has as well as my girl which has no specific locality info suspected to be Mossman animal reasonably comparable to Daintree b/w's which they're are certainly some stunners that come from there.

The animals you have posted seem to remind me more of Southern or bottom end Cape Yorkers or Mareeba type carpets which tend to have a very blocky type pattern but obviously not always and as you've seen some can look just like a true b/w when young but soon change as they mature.As for the b/w's having mixed in colours as has been said and some of the most stunning are ones with nice gold blotches down the sides however most tend to be black and white with the normal amount of ground colour like my adult in them and i've yet to see any adult jungle be it black and white or black and gold/yellow without any third colour or ground colour that creeps into the black,you will get juveniles with pure black but they always get some ground colour creping in and i've even been challenged to show someone a pic of any adult jungle without it,they all have it!

Funny thing with jungle localities is although they vary a lot you can see the difference between the localities in say a 10 k radius around Cairns such as South Johnstone animals tending to be more a nice yellow than gold which you get heading further up the Palmerston and again say Southern Tully animals stand out like dogs knackers when compared to a Palmerston or even MissionBeach animals whih resemble Palmerstons but are more banded in general like cape trib bw's being more banded as pposed to Julatten b/w's which tend to be more white and black with usually some dorsal striping or skeleton type patterning or erratic for lack of a better word.None of the Julatten bw's i've seen have been anywhere near 6 foot.

I would tend to agree the animals you posted now and on other occasions resemble Southern Cape type animals moreso than Cape Trib or Daintree b/w's which obviously throw some stunning offspring but i really would love to see some picsof moreolder animals especially the parents that have bred quite a few times now,these lines of indicus have only been bred once last season and another line again this season so will be interesting to see how both linages develope over time with some line breeding and fine tuning...all lovely animals!!


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## indicus (Dec 16, 2007)

Great photo's everyone 8)
Blackghost; nice example mate; who bred those?; i also notice there's some room in the backyard; for some nice cages 
Very nice Nick; gives us an idea of what we'll have to look forward to when we get to line breed these over here;
Thanks for sharing; top looking animal.

B/W's not only vary in colour; but also size....having said that;
It's interesting to note; that i have never seen a 6 foot; or plus; wild B/W (not that there not out there).... why is that?
IMO; in captivity; a captive bred juvenile; that has a constant food supply; optimum conditions; may very well
display caritistic's one would expect from any animal; that has had it easy; in comparison to it's wild counterparts.
The siblings in which you refer to having seen Daz; are just one line I've been working on.....
and yes a couple of mine from this line are also quite large; 5.5 foot; give or take.
I suspect as these particular animals may mature in size and age; and may lay more eggs per clutch in the future.
My oldest female; 14 years of age; is a thick set animal; about 4.5 feet in length.
The largest egg clutch I've had to date; has been 14.

In regards to Shane's line; which in the past; he himself has been quick to mention;
'are up there or better then some of the other B/W lines in the country'......
I hope this to be the case; considering the lack of B/W's available; and the limited lines, we have to work with.
Having said that; I however; still have not once; seen any photo's of the breeders;
that produced those nice young you posted last season Daz...why is that?
Given the fact; he has bred them for several years; before myself.....
one would expect there to be quite a few nice looking B/W adults around these days?
Why have I not seen anywhere; at least some of the better examples from these clutch's?
I notice Daz; you made mention that the picture you've supplied; as 'the worst in the clutch'....
where are the rest? the better ones?.......that animal;
I thought was quite nice; be awesome to see the better ones (thanks for posting to mate)
I'm sorry Daz; without pictures; talks cheap....
and in the fairness to those that are to spend a considerable amount of money on one of these animals; one would understandably;
like to see some pictures of the breeders; and others.... myself included.
Either way; I look forward to seeing how these lines develop over time 

Heres another picture for the thread; of a older female (five years)....taken this morning; first in the shade;
then in the sun.


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## Jonno from ERD (Dec 16, 2007)

I find that with the current boom in popularity that black and white Jungles are experiencing, a lot of people are trying to palm off second rate animals as something spectacular. It's a real shame that many people can't appreciatea high-end animal without muddying the waters by claiming their brown and grey snakes are actually "black and whites". It seems to happen with all colour forms of Jungle Python, most notably "black and golds". I swear a lot of people in the snake world are colour blind!


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## blackghost (Dec 16, 2007)

Hey Indicus

Yes, I've often thought of digging up the tennis court (behind the bushes) and turning it into a huge outdoor enclosure 

The male and female pictured are actually from your line. If they turn out even half as good the one's you have pictured on here, I'll be one happy and very proud owner.

While I'm here, I just wanted to say thanks to Indicus, Browns and Hugsta for all your valuable information you have posted on this thread. Every time one of you guys write something in, I make a habit of saving it so I can always refer back on any information I may need, especially in regards to Julatten B&W's. The information supplied on this thread and many others is invaluable! Thanks guys 

blackghost


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## hugsta (Dec 17, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> I find that with the current boom in popularity that black and white Jungles are experiencing, a lot of people are trying to palm off second rate animals as something spectacular. It's a real shame that many people can't appreciatea high-end animal without muddying the waters by claiming their brown and grey snakes are actually "black and whites". It seems to happen with all colour forms of Jungle Python, most notably "black and golds". I swear a lot of people in the snake world are colour blind!


 
I agree Jonno, but where do you stop being pedantic and start being realistic. I mean, you could have B&G's, B&yellow, B&cream,B&pastel yellow,B&canary yellow,B&beige etc etc. and then you could have B&G with black washed into the gold,B&W&orange etc etc. So most people seem to understand that the term is generic and covers a broad range of variations in both B&W and B&G. 

Tremain, you have seen examples of Shanes line and as I have said previously, are not quite as nice as some your best animals you show in these photos. I am not the breeder and do not have the animals at my leisure to photograph. I have seen 7 animals from his last clutch and all have been fairly consistant with pics that I have shown and several others have in previous threads. We also know that a cracker pair of animals can produce average offspring and vice versa. I am sure all of your offspring aren't as great as the ones you have posted on the forum, as you have already stated, they can have many variations to the colours and is hard to tell which will turn out as good as yours. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they are all nice, but some will be obviously better than others.

As for where all the offspring have gone, I cannot answer that, and agree that there would be many nice looking adults around, but of the 15,000 plus keepers alone in NSW, you cannot expect to know everyone, most of them probably don't even know APS or snake forums in general exist, and some of those probably don't care either. Then of course there is the possibility that some of the animals have died from lack of care or even possibly been onsold to unlicenced keepers. Who knows, but you can't expect to see or know where all the animals end up. The next clutch produced by shane, which is in the incubator, will only be his fourth from these animals and as far as I know, no one has line breed them to see what they can produce in the future. Another breeding project I am looking forward to and cannot wait to breed the animals I have here.

The 4 year old animal I took pics of, was to show what they look like at an older age, I have been told that this was the worst from the clutch and have no reason to believe other wise. I did not see any of the animals from that clutch, and as I said, have only seen 7 animals form his last. But, anyone that knows Shane realises he has no reason to tell little porky pies, he's not even that keen on pythons.....LOL. When this clutch hatches I will take photos of all the siblings and post them so we can all see the variation in the clutch. II too am interestes in seeing them all hatch.

Yes I agree talk without pictures is cheap, but how many photos of his lines do you want, or is the simple fact that there has not been one of the adults that makes you think this. If you saw a photo of an albino, would you care that the parents looked normal? Or if you saw a stunning 2year old jungle, would you be really worried that parents were average. I have yet to see many jungles over the 4 year mark that still look as good as they did when they were much younger. On the other hand if you saw a stunning pair of adults and saw ugly offspring would you still buy them? Just a thought.

Whatever we think, the fact is that both lines are stunning animals in their own rights, also regardless of locality, as I have said previoulsy, people will buy what they like. The fact that this clutch and most of the next are all sold is proof of this. Shanes lines are also half the price of yours and are of a different locale, so it really makes me wonder why so much contraversy over someone else's animals. 

Thanks for this post, it has been quite intersting. A couple of pics of my pair as well. I hope to breed them at 2 1/2 years and can't wait. :lol:

Cheers
Daz


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## kakariki (Dec 17, 2007)

They are magnificent! WOW!!!


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## Hetty (Dec 17, 2007)

Everyone just needs to wait a few years. If you're all patient then I'll post pictures of mine in two, three, four, etc. years time  As I'm sure others will.


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## BIG RYANO (Dec 18, 2007)

indicus;1028253
In regards to Shane's line; which in the past; he himself has been quick to mention;
'are up there or better then some of the other B/W lines in the country'...[/quote said:


> Thats not like Shane to talk them up. He must have been drinking to say that. LOL. Seriously, he doesnt rate them at all. He doesnt even call them B/W's, he calls them Cape Yorks. He actually thinks all the B/W's and Cape Yorks are overated and overpriced. But then again, he thinks that about a lot of pythons.Anyone who knows him will tell you this. He doesnt understand what all the fuss is about, hence the reason he never gets involved in these threads. I can only think he would have said that comparing them to some of the photos people have put up over the years.


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## zulu (Dec 18, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> Thats not like Shane to talk them up. He must have been drinking to say that. LOL. Seriously, he doesnt rate them at all. He doesnt even call them B/W's, he calls them Cape Yorks. He actually thinks all the B/W's and Cape Yorks are overated and overpriced. But then again, he thinks that about a lot of pythons.Anyone who knows him will tell you this. He doesnt understand what all the fuss is about, hence the reason he never gets involved in these threads. I can only think he would have said that comparing them to some of the photos people have put up over the years.



Your right Ryano,shane isnt fussed at all about his cape yorks at all as he himself calls them hes more interested in his venomous species,if the ones i had were B&Ws i wouldnt have sold them.Two that i purchased for a friend were swapped for a frillnecked lizard,the same guy had a nice B&W jungle a few years ago and he thought they was cape yorks also.Ive seen some of shanes cape yorks grown up to about four feet long at a year old,they had a full vertebral stripe,the triangular head,the markings were a light greenish yellow,didnt look like B&Ws,but they were spectacular looking.


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## indicus (Dec 18, 2007)

Firstly; thanks for the time consuming reply; and up-dated pictures Daz...appreciated mate.
B/W's have been more then just a interest of mine for quite a long time; in excess of 12 years....
In this time; I've seen quite a few different forms; and it's safe to say; I've probably seen more then most.
You could imagine I was rather interested in the pictures you posted last season.....
At the time; you had asked; whether anyone could give you; an indication as to where this form may have been derived from.
Judging from the pictures you had posted; I myself; stated; they may well have been Cape Trib type animals; or north of.
It was only later; that I had realised how foolish I was; to have put; a locality to a line of animals; having only seen juvenile shots.....stupid!!!
This then made me curious to see what the parents looked like.
Later i learned that Shane at one stage received/purchased some cape yorks carpets from a breeder in the NT....
(he may be able to confirm this?)
I'm familiar with this line of Cape York carpets; having had them myself at one stage.
These animals can produce some stunning babies; some of which can appear quite black & white in colouration;
but the colour change from juvenile to adult; is quite remarkable.....not to cause offence; these animals are stunning in their own right.
The truth is; the average adult cape yorker; is in most cases; quite distinguishable from 'area form' B/W jungles....
The only controversy i could for-see....
Would be; if someone were to see these B/W cape york juveniles? advertised; purchased them; hoping to be in with chance;
that their animal may end up looking like some of the B/W jungles (as per this thread).....if this was "in fact" the case;
then there chances would be rather remote.

We all know; that an average looking parent; can produce some stunning offspring; that then could go on to colour-up quite nice....
Having said that; it's beyond me; what's the hassle; in seeing photo's of these adults?
I myself can also say; that a percentage of my own line; will turn out average as adults; that won't surprise me; as
that's just jungles; regardless whether they be B/G's or B/W's....
One can only access the quality of ones line; on it's own merits; and the quality of animals it's seen to produce.....
I could be considered lucky; having been in a position to hand pick some attractive juveniles (IMO) from the first clutch;
watch them grow; then to see some of which; have coloured- up quite nice. 
It's safe to say then; knowing your own line; having nice adults... a percentage of young will turn out rather nice; as I'm beginning to see.
To see the number of breeders that sell according to locality names these days; shows there are;
those that wish to purchase animals that they believe to be ' true' representations of wild stocks...Tully form etc; (been done for years)
Granted; there will always be those that just use it simply as a marketing ploy; regardless of origin; colour; line etc.

Daz; you asked " if you saw a stunning pair of adults and saw ugly offspring would you still buy them?"
This would depend whether I wanted a snake simply for show; or hoped one day to breed animals like the adults?
Having purchased animals from nice adults; at least tells me I'm in with a chance; that mine may in fact colour up quite nice with age; or
if then; when I breed these animals; it's a given; that some of the progeny;
will display characteristic's or traits displayed in the original adults; for better or worse.
But of course; if given the choice; it's oblivious each and anyone of us; would try and purchase the best we can.
I believe a breeder who is genuine in his/her dealing's will alway's try; and supply; what another hope's to obtain. 
I personally; would never buy a juvenile jungle (for breeding purposes) without first seeing adult pictures.
If you can; could part with them; without the extra hassle of pictures;
you'd be considered the envy of a lot of small scale breeders (like myself); not a bad rort really....lol 

Going off the pictures you've posted Daz (stunning by the way); If I again; were to take a guess; as to what yours were Daz;
I'd still be inclined to say Cape-Tribs; odd animals to say the least; but; 
I'm sure a picture of the adults would help put any further speculation to rest; either way.
As other's expressed; we'll just have to wait and see....'what my line produces'; is all that should concern to me.
I to can hardly wait; and really look forward to seeing what you produce from these animals Daz; and wish you the best of luck. 
In regards to Shane; not knowing him personally; I've friends; that speak rather well of him; and in this industry;
that speaks for itself. No malice is intended towards Shane; as my intention;
is to learn more about his line of Cape Yorks; as it's of interest to me; and others a like.

P.S Look forward to those sibling pictures to Daz 8)

I thought they looked familar Blackghost  were they Chetens animals?
That may explain a few things Zulu; thankyou 

54 Days today; i wonder how may times you can open an incubator; before it causes any adverse effects :lol:


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## salebrosus (Dec 18, 2007)

indicus said:


> 54 Days today; i wonder how may times you can open an incubator; before it causes any adverse effects :lol:



Maybe that's where i buggered up this year 

Simone.


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## viridis (Dec 18, 2007)

Woah,

Some smoking hot animals there Tree!


There are a few many nice photos in this thread but unfortunatley I am not convinced on Shanes animals being of Cheynei origin.

I will happily eat my words if I can be proven wrong, but I know that I wont be! lol

The animals that I have seen that are from Shanes line of Carpets have all been nice looking animals. I would bet my left one that they are NOT and were NOT collected from Rainforest, let alone Cape Tribulation or Daintree.

They are very typical examples of Cape Carpets or Cape Yorks. Animals like the ones Daz posted in the cage, are like what alot of carpets from the dryer areas of Southern Cape York look like. I have seen quite a few wild animals that are very very similar. The reason these have been sold for years as Cape Yorks is because that is what they are.

Not a Trib or Daintree cheynei, but an ''area form'' of carpet from the dry country. I would say that these originated from somewhere near Coen, but it could be from anywhere North West of Cooktown.

With captive breeding over a period of time, these animals will get better every generation, and at a guess, Darren will get some nice Black and Whites when he breeds his pair together. There will be some stunning offspring produced from Shanes line but they will never be Cheynei origin.

I am not having a go at anyone as Shane and Daz are well on their way to producing Black and White carpets.

This is a prime example of why I hate using species names ect. I much prefer to use locale names such as Coen carpet, Mena Creek Jungle ect ect ect.

My post for the month,

Nick


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## indicus (Dec 18, 2007)

viridis said:


> Woah,
> 
> Some smoking hot animals there Tree!
> 
> ...


You may very well be right Nick.....
I've seen the area form Cape Yorks in which your referring to;
similar to what i've seen from Musgrave.
I've also seen Cape tribs; that look very similar in appearence;
to ones posted by Daz....all the more reason an adult picture would benefit ones curiosity.


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## BROWNS (Dec 18, 2007)

Indicus,Here's a thread i recall from some time ago which as well as confusing you it may also shed a bit of light on this subject which seemed to get quite heated and controversial in this case.There's a pic of a Cape York from Russell Grant same line as i've had capes from myself and many look like b/w jungles as juveniles just as the one in the pic does but everything changes as they age.

There was also a pic posted said to be one of the parents to Shane Blacks line which is the first so called adult pic i'm yet to see however going on the pic it's still kept in a plastic tub and appears to be quite small not much bigger than 2 - 2 1/2 foot long which they may very well be able to breed at that age and size however i would at the most call them sexually mature not adults and it says that Shanes line throws up to 30 plus eggs in a clutch...enough said!!!That snake however is a lovely looking animal and if they are Cape Yorks it makes me wonder why they get brought up in B/W Jungle threads not cape york threads if that's in fact what they are according to Shane himself even if others say they look like Cape Tribs etc which do not lay 30 plus eggs in a clutch!!

Cheers..........

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/baby-cape-trib-jungle-52780/page/7


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## BROWNS (Dec 18, 2007)

Sorry about the pic quality and the ***** in the pic but you get that,it's just an example of an ivory coloured pure Palmerston,to me basically one that never coloured up and i doubt will and looks every bit as ivory in colour even black and white just after a shed at 2 years old still keeping the ivory/white colour but people in the know will be able to tell instantly it is not a TRUE B/W jungle especially the Truest of B/W's a Julatten quality B/W which you can see in the comparison pic the right being a Julatten animal!


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## indicus (Dec 18, 2007)

Well i guess that answers a few questions for me.
I remember having a few members contact me last season regarding some of the animals they had purchased; so the story rings a bell; but for some reason i'd not remembered having read the thread in question; was probably out prospecting or something. Another member pm'd me with this link earlier....
Thanks for your help guy's; cheers


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## BIG RYANO (Dec 19, 2007)

Indicus, i spoke to Shane last night about this thread. His laptop is broken so he hasnt been able to post for a while. He got the original animals from a mate in Sth Qld, who had got them off another mate in Nth Qld. Even though they were given to Shane as Cape Yorks, they were on paper from Qld as cheynei. Shanes opinion is they are Cape Yorks, which he also says are in his opinion, not cheynei. He does not class them as B/W jungles. But he has had a lot of people say they look like Cape Tribs over the years. But he has never sold them to anyone as anything but Cape Yorks.


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## indicus (Dec 25, 2007)

Cheers Ryano;

What a nice B/day present; when i awoke yesterday morning.
The first B/W jungle clutch hatching 
Looks to be some really bent patterns this season 8)


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## lachie96 (Dec 25, 2007)

looking great indicus, u luckb bum


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## blackghost (Dec 25, 2007)

Nice spray paint job on the little fellow popping his head out Indicus 

Fantastic stuff mate, congrats...betcha that was worth blowing a few candles out.

blackghost


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## Tojo (Dec 27, 2007)

Looking good Tree! Nice Christmas surprise mate.All the best with the little ones!


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