# Just Discovered A Bad Side To The Hobby . . .



## Nero Egernia (Dec 2, 2016)

I haven't been in the hobby too long, but just recently I discovered a bad side. I'm not sure what other people's views are but to me it wasn't particular pleasant. Too often I see people only interested in the brightest, most unusual colours or structural morphs out there that will collect the most money. So-called plain old wild types or animals with natural earthly tones or with low contrast seem to be regarded as literal garbage, and apparently only poor, uneducated newbies would ever be interested in them. Even animals from particular locales are simply seen as dull and boring in comparison to the more popular locales. I know people have different preferences and that's fine, but surely unusual bright colours and patterns isn't all that is governing the hobby today? I admit that there are some stunning morphs out there, but for me a portion of my collection was purely selected because I found them interesting and they were closer to home in a way, and because that's what I remember growing up with.

Rant aside, the fact that wild-type animals are often regarded as garbage bothers me the most. Isn't it from within the wild is where we fell in love with reptiles? What's everyone's reasons for having a particular species/locale/colour in their collection?


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## pythoninfinite (Dec 2, 2016)

You're in WA I believe Oshkii? I'm from WA originally, and the ban on importing pythons has at least protected you from the crap crossbreeding and morph philosophies which exist over here. Have a look at Facebook to see how those breeding the ugliest snakes get the biggest accolades from their mates. The search for something "different" is almost an obsession in some quarters here in the east, and some of the animals they produce are, frankly, very ugly. These are people who have never seen a snake in the wild, and if they did, they'd just think "how plain and boring." Because a Carpet can produce 15-30 eggs in a clutch, and maybe two or three in that clutch are regarded as exceptional, I'm curious to know what happens to the large numbers of bubs considered sub-par by these breeders. Freezing comes to mind...

Jamie


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## Stompsy (Dec 2, 2016)

I find most people I interact with, who are involved in the herp hobby, are akin to a 15 year old in a school yard. There's so much arrogance and people seem to only care about being glorified by having the most 'interesting' reptile. It bugs me to no end! I've even had a guy roll his eyes at me when I suggested he take on a few pink tongue skinks that he couldn't shift, as if to imply that his collection was much better than that! It saddens me to see that the hobby is taking this path..... but unfortunately, it really doesn't surprise me at all.


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## Iguana (Dec 2, 2016)

Reminds me of the Ball python market in the USA, you don't hear of anyone with just a normal wild type, it's always "super het ghost marble axanthic cross piebald lesser banana" lol
I agree with all of you, I've only been apart of the 'hobby' for 3-4 years, but i've seen how wild types are just thrown away, nobody wants them, they only want the insane color ones. Which I admit are beautiful, but I think to go back to the wild type snakes would be a great move. Whenever I speak to an american herp keeper they always mention how beautiful our wild type snakes are, I don't think we appreciate them enough.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Dec 2, 2016)

This has always been in the hobby and always will, it happens with everything that man gets involved with.
I remember when I got my first captive bred snake in the UK 30 odd years ago it was a wild type Burmese. (Albino's hadn't even become commercial then). If you were breeding Burms in the UK now they would probably be seen as food for a BHP.

While most of us can see the beauty in the wild type some will only see the monetary value in a jag/albino/tri colour super banana etc. 
I do have colour morphs in my collection but also have wild type. Treat them all the same, none are seen as being more important or valuable & we will keep them all till the day they die.


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## Wally (Dec 2, 2016)

The short answer to your question Oshkii is that these days the love affair begins for many people when they see that unbelievably coloured & patterned reptile in a shop or online. 

Before that moment they may have had only a passing interest in reptiles.

It is what it is now and there's no turning back. I've learnt to accept that each to their own.


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## pinefamily (Dec 3, 2016)

I agree with you Oshkiii. It is sad to see the morphs take precedence. As stated above, money unfortunately becomes a factor for some, seeing it as a an easy earner.
However, I feel the wheel is turning a bit. It seems the hobby is a little on the decline; whether that's because of external factors (the economic uncertainty we face), or whether because of a glut in the market, I don't know. Things do cycle, so maybe pure types will become popular again. Jags seem to have declined in popularity, thankfully IMO.
We probably will always have that section of the market that wants the fancy colour or morph, just like some people want that fancy car, or the biggest diamond ring.


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## dragonlover1 (Dec 3, 2016)

I agree with most of whats been said here but I must admit I am trying to improve the colour retention of Pygmy Bearded Dragons.
These little guys seem to have a bit of colour when hatched but fade to grey fairly quickly


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## icuucme2 (Dec 3, 2016)

feel free to send me your ugly snakes I will take them lol I love snakes not the way it looks don't get me wrong I love the prettiness of some but I also love the ugly, ugliness is only in the eyes of the beholder.


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## pinefamily (Dec 4, 2016)

Rick, what you are doing is different to these cowboys breeding for fancy morphs etc. As long as you don't come up with a pygmy silkback, lol.


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 4, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> You're in WA I believe Oshkii? I'm from WA originally, and the ban on importing pythons has at least protected you from the crap crossbreeding and morph philosophies which exist over here. Have a look at Facebook to see how those breeding the ugliest snakes get the biggest accolades from their mates. The search for something "different" is almost an obsession in some quarters here in the east, and some of the animals they produce are, frankly, very ugly. These are people who have never seen a snake in the wild, and if they did, they'd just think "how plain and boring." Because a Carpet can produce 15-30 eggs in a clutch, and maybe two or three in that clutch are regarded as exceptional, I'm curious to know what happens to the large numbers of bubs considered sub-par by these breeders. Freezing comes to mind...
> 
> Jamie



Yeah, that's right. While there's no crossbreeding in Western Australia there does seem to be a race to catch up with the East when it comes to morphs. Many of the locales I would like to have in my collection appear to be regarded as dull so it's actually quite hard to source them when there's a growing surge in the high contrast brightly coloured critters. I don't know about others but I always get a thrill seeing reptiles in the wild, even if they are "plain and boring". 



Iguana said:


> Reminds me of the Ball python market in the USA, you don't hear of anyone with just a normal wild type, it's always "super het ghost marble axanthic cross piebald lesser banana" lol
> I agree with all of you, I've only been apart of the 'hobby' for 3-4 years, but i've seen how wild types are just thrown away, nobody wants them, they only want the insane color ones. Which I admit are beautiful, but I think to go back to the wild type snakes would be a great move. Whenever I speak to an american herp keeper they always mention how beautiful our wild type snakes are, I don't think we appreciate them enough.



It makes me wonder if the wild type Ball Python even exists in captivity over in the USA? I don't really pay attention to their crazy colours, but what I do know is that there's a lot of them and most of them have confusing names. I see some people in Australia appear to be taking on the flavour of the USA. Some people have been naming their Bearded Dragons under the USA titles of "Sunburst" or whatever other names they're called. I would simply just call them a high yellow. Much easier to remember. 



Pauls_Pythons said:


> This has always been in the hobby and always will, it happens with everything that man gets involved with.
> I remember when I got my first captive bred snake in the UK 30 odd years ago it was a wild type Burmese. (Albino's hadn't even become commercial then). If you were breeding Burms in the UK now they would probably be seen as food for a BHP.
> 
> While most of us can see the beauty in the wild type some will only see the monetary value in a jag/albino/tri colour super banana etc.
> I do have colour morphs in my collection but also have wild type. Treat them all the same, none are seen as being more important or valuable & we will keep them all till the day they die.



That's a great attitude Pauls_Pythons. I don't have any pythons but I do have a few books and whenever friends look at the pictures they always love the Jags and Albinos. 



Wally said:


> The short answer to your question Oshkii is that these days the love affair begins for many people when they see that unbelievably coloured & patterned reptile in a shop or online.
> 
> Before that moment they may have had only a passing interest in reptiles.
> 
> It is what it is now and there's no turning back. I've learnt to accept that each to their own.



I always thought that most people's love affairs with reptiles came from a very young age, of catching small reptiles and frogs and keeping them in containers filled with grass and sticks. Mine was something like that at least.


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## kittycat17 (Dec 4, 2016)

It's great to hear other like minded people in the hobby 
As colourful as jags etc are I can't help but thinking about how well they would cope in the wild. 
Personally I'm sticking to my coastals and love the variety you can get out of a single clutch  
I was very impressed when my locale pet store that stocks reptiles told me they where no longer keeping and selling jaguars as it wasn't something they wanted to encourage first time keepers to have.


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## nick_75 (Dec 6, 2016)

Hi, I feel your pain and frustration. I have been in this hobby for many years, way before all of the super het etc etc etc. and I miss those days. Animals were celebrated in their natural form. I find the new attitude to breeding designers most frustrating when I am looking to buy a new animal and have to wade through all of the designer animal adds to find the pure locals. I got into the hobby through a love of science and an interest in native animals, I feel that the owners and breeders of designer animals do not have a love of science (other than genetics). The interest is commerce for breeders and the bling factor for keepers.


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## dragonlover1 (Dec 6, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Rick, what you are doing is different to these cowboys breeding for fancy morphs etc. As long as you don't come up with a pygmy silkback, lol.


Definitely NOT,Darren.I really don't like silkbacks,I want my dragons to look like dragons not skinks.


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## pinefamily (Dec 7, 2016)

I know that mate. Just stirring.


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## princessparrot (Dec 7, 2016)

I actually quite prefer the more plain normal/natural coloured animals like childrens, olives, womas, shinglebacks,ect. Really the only "fancy" one I quite like and probably prefer to than normals are albino darwins... Other than that not much of a fan of mutations...


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 9, 2016)

nick_75 said:


> Hi, I feel your pain and frustration. I have been in this hobby for many years, way before all of the super het etc etc etc. and I miss those days. Animals were celebrated in their natural form. I find the new attitude to breeding designers most frustrating when I am looking to buy a new animal and have to wade through all of the designer animal adds to find the pure locals. I got into the hobby through a love of science and an interest in native animals, I feel that the owners and breeders of designer animals do not have a love of science (other than genetics). The interest is commerce for breeders and the bling factor for keepers.



It seems that some people don't even know of, or care about locales. I was once looking at a reptile and I asked the seller if they knew the locale of the animal. It appeared that they thought I was some kind of idiot for even asking, as apparently, if it's pretty with "cool" patterns and colours who even cares about its origins?


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## eipper (Dec 9, 2016)

This is a hobby when you can have your cake and eat it too.

I love wild types/ localities/ esu's but can appreciate morphs and even hybrids.

Reptiles are only worth what people are willing to pay. Don't believe the self inflated prices as an indication of worth. 

Also too remember that that expensive animals does not equate to experienced keepers. Plenty of people "buy their reputation" by owning expensive, sought after species and equally their are a number of very experienced keepers with common species only as that is what they like.

Which brings me back to the original sentiment of keep what YOU want and don't worry about SOMEONE ELSE.

Cheers


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## jase13 (Dec 9, 2016)

I agree guys. This is my first comment on a forumso excuse me if im doin it wrong. But i got into reptiles because i was scared of snakes,so i wanted to overcome my fears. I love the natural colours of all reptiles, sure the occasional morph is nice here and there. Look at stimson pythons, or tiger snakes, the difference u can get in 1 snake based on locale makes me wonder why u would bother trying to make snakes that become so riddled with problems due to crossbreeding and inbreeding to get a fancy colour!


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## Smittiferous (Dec 9, 2016)

You know @Oshkii from what You've posted from your own collection I'd say all your animals are stunning!

Personally I've only met a handful of individuals involved in the hobby in any way who I haven't recoiled at for some reason or another, most of those reasons stated above. I get that not everyone is interested in everything (I like monitors and some dragons personally) and by no means should they have to be, but there's plenty of piss-poor attitudes across the board. Each to their own but I don't have time for many, and would go out of my way for fewer still.


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## Shaggy77 (Dec 9, 2016)

There is a massive problem with all these "Keyboard Warriors" or "Arm Chair Herpers" that think they know everything about reptiles because they have it in a cage and can provide "appropriate husbandry" for it! I started my reptile passion by collecting animals in the bush and putting them in small boxes and jars and I still go out herping when ever I can! Unfortunately in defense of these arm chair herpers you can no longer go out and catch animals or even handle them legally anymore!
I have been in the Hobby over 15 years now and have watched it change and evolve so dramatically it is scary. My collection is well over 100 plus animals and I have a lot of morphs (no jags) but I also keep heaps of wild type Locality's and absolutely love them to bits!! 
Keep in mind Single morphs (Albino) do happen naturally!
The glorification of "designer" animals and the disregarded "Plain or Boring" animals does make me sick! I know of many that simply euthanize undesirable animals and that really does make me mad! I have animals in my collection that are problem animals and yet I will never euthanize or try to sell cheap or palm them off!
I think this is a great thread and I am really happy to hear that there are still people passionate about our natural and locality animals!


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 10, 2016)

Smittiferous said:


> You know @Oshkii from what You've posted from your own collection I'd say all your animals are stunning!
> 
> Personally I've only met a handful of individuals involved in the hobby in any way who I haven't recoiled at for some reason or another, most of those reasons stated above. I get that not everyone is interested in everything (I like monitors and some dragons personally) and by no means should they have to be, but there's plenty of piss-poor attitudes across the board. Each to their own but I don't have time for many, and would go out of my way for fewer still.



Thanks Smitti, If I had the space I would be keeping a lot more. I've been thinking about doing some outdoor enclosures but I don't want to encroach on the homes of reptiles and amphibians already living in the garden. I personally haven't met many keepers, except where I acquired my own reptiles. I'll probably keep it that way. Not really the social type anyway. I'm happy with just keeping reptiles and I don't want to be involved in the various cliques. Someone once told me that they kept a low profile on the herp scene to stay out of the nastiness, and now I'm starting to see it. But it's also nice to talk to people that have the same obsession.



Shaggy77 said:


> There is a massive problem with all these "Keyboard Warriors" or "Arm Chair Herpers" that think they know everything about reptiles because they have it in a cage and can provide "appropriate husbandry" for it! I started my reptile passion by collecting animals in the bush and putting them in small boxes and jars and I still go out herping when ever I can! Unfortunately in defense of these arm chair herpers you can no longer go out and catch animals or even handle them legally anymore!
> I have been in the Hobby over 15 years now and have watched it change and evolve so dramatically it is scary. My collection is well over 100 plus animals and I have a lot of morphs (no jags) but I also keep heaps of wild type Locality's and absolutely love them to bits!!
> Keep in mind Single morphs (Albino) do happen naturally!
> The glorification of "designer" animals and the disregarded "Plain or Boring" animals does make me sick! I know of many that simply euthanize undesirable animals and that really does make me mad! I have animals in my collection that are problem animals and yet I will never euthanize or try to sell cheap or palm them off!
> I think this is a great thread and I am really happy to hear that there are still people passionate about our natural and locality animals!



Same here Shaggy77, many of my fondest childhood memories were going out in the bush, catching and admiring reptiles and amphibians. I remember spending most of the warmer months walking/driving up and down the gravel driveway in the morning and afternoon, seeing Bobtails, snakes and goannas crossing to and fro from the bush to the farm. I would often check under rocks and logs to find tiny skinks and geckos, and sometimes the occasional baby snake. It was always an exciting time seeing the odd carpet python in the shearing shed. There's many more, but I'm not going to write an essay on it. It's strange that many of these activities are illegal.


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## Snowman (Dec 11, 2016)

I've lived in WA for a decade or so and for the most part I could count the number of people I trust in the hobby on one hand. For some reason reptiles attract the scum of the earth, drug addicts, welfare cheats, weirdo’s that do a relocate course and need to set up a YouTube account of every relocate they do. And of course they're all over night experts who are so thin skinned they need to be committed to a psych ward and undergo therapy if you pull them up on bad husbandry (or don't sugar coat everything you say). There was one guy over here who started calling himself the Perth Water Python Man, a new keeper who got into reptiles as an adult, but at the time had never even kept a water python. They're all keen as mustard to be known in the hobby for something. If you just sit back and watch it's really amusing, and I have to admit I liked to poke them for their reactions (though since having kids four or so years ago I've lost the passion for calling them on their BS). For some weird reason all these new experts in WA can't even breed BHP's, a python that is no harder to breed than any other if you give them what they require. I'm a very new and very amateur keeper and reptile enthusiast and happy to be so. There's so much to learn when you talk to the actual veterans of herpetology, its sad that the new keepers probably think the YouTube and media whores are the veterans though.


There's some great people here as well though. I was lucky enough to meet one of Pythoninfinites mates when I began keeping and he has been a great mentor and introduced me to some top people in the herpetology scene.


It doesn't matter what the cliques call popular or what the kids on Facebook drool over. Rule number one is to keep for yourself and keep what you like. I have some fairly rare (in the hobby) imbricata that are locale specific but quite dull. I keep them because they are interesting to me. I wont breed them, because they'd be hard to move the progeny. For the most part if someone just want's a single pet snake or two, it makes sense that they want a bright coloured display animal. There will always be a few purists out there, but you probably won't see them all over social media, they simply don't keep for the accolades.


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## Smittiferous (Dec 11, 2016)

Snowman said:


> its sad that the new keepers probably think the YouTube and media whores are the veterans though.



That brings to mind a guy on youtube... He'll post videos of him talking, with some kind of clickbait title. First thirty seconds is him telling you "Your animal will DIE because you're an idiot and don't know what you're doing" with the remainder of the four/five minutes extolling his own virtues and who he knows in the scene. It's a pretty clear showcase of pretty much anyone who thinks they're a someone in the hobby. Big egos require a lot of stroking, and there seems to be no shortage of stroking fingers around unfortunately.


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## mrkos (Dec 11, 2016)

I started keeping snakes in 2005 but although I was on here I never joined until 2010 and since then I have noticed some huge changes to the hobby. Unfortunately these changes haven't been positive apart from prices of some animals becoming more affordable. The hobby is full of idiots who have no respect or care for species specific animals and although it seems the hobby has died a little I think the old school keepers just keep to themselves breed less and enjoy their collections in private. I don't consider myself an old school keeper but I love my pure diamonds and enjoy a small collection of quality that is easy to care for and costs little. Selling snakes in my opinion these days and for a long time is a horrible experience.


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## pinefamily (Dec 12, 2016)

Yes indeed. When we moved. and had to downsize our collection, I encountered many lowlifes, lowballers, and people who wanted to swap a phone or gaming console for a reptile.


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## Nero Egernia (Dec 14, 2016)

Buying can also be a horrible experience as well.


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## pinefamily (Dec 14, 2016)

Oh yes. We've met plenty of people trying to stooge us when we've looked at reptiles, or second hand enclosures. The good ones you tend to stay in touch with.


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## Smittiferous (Dec 14, 2016)

I can't say I've had what I'd consider a "bad" transaction, other than putting a deposit on an animal once and coming to collect it two weeks later to find it in a horribly neglected state. I've had many sellers be very guarded or even standoffish upon initially making contact/meeting them, but the moment they've realised I was a genuine enthusiast and wasn't going to rob their house, low-ball them or waste their time they've tended to open up quite a bit, even give tours of reptile rooms/collections etc and chat for hours. I guess I've been rather lucky.


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## Sheldoncooper (Dec 20, 2016)

Ive got grand theft auto 1
Arnold palmer golf for play station 1 and a bag of chocolate eclairs with 2 missing if anyone has any swaps  bloody Gumtree 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## pinefamily (Dec 20, 2016)

But have you at least got the wrappers?


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## Sheldoncooper (Dec 20, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> But have you at least got the wrappers?


I wasn't going to offer them up as ive put my toe nail clippings in them. But if they can add too the deal im prepared to reach down behind the couch and dig them up again

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## pinefamily (Dec 20, 2016)




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## stencorp69 (Dec 21, 2016)

Snowman said:


> .... I have to admit I liked to poke them for their reactions (though since having kids four or so years ago I've lost the passion for calling them on their BS).....



Gee that's not like you mate - you have triplets or something.

It's mostly the system over here that entices some people to be dodgy, but it is true the Perth herp scene has a degree of people running agendas for their own gain. For my part I only came across 2 people who were truly dodgy one worked in a government department and one came from over east to "help" WAHS.


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## Pythons Rule (Dec 27, 2016)

hmm there has always been this issue, more so now a days to back before the first clutch of Jags where available. However back then it was more along the lines of pure morphs and locality specific creations, who could make the first close to jag looking specimens etc. which was the best part of the hobby IMO, then the jags became available in the next year jabs where available everywhere. Only a handful of breeders kept going with what they had been working with for years but the rest (high reputable breeders all snatched up the latest trend and IMO swamped the market with jags everywhere. I've been in this hobby for 14years now and I can say that in the past couple years wild types and locality specific morphs are making a come back.

Even though you might not think that most appreciate a nice dull looker there is always someone that will. I have bred some nice looking wild type cape yorks that have produced some amazing unique colors and patterns, there has always been a thing with dulls producing amazing looking off springs. But also if you see a true wild specimen in the wild you will find most to look sooo much nicer then a captive muddied looking animal any day. 

The problem I have is when new keepers want to breed anything with anything to make a quick buck no matter what the cross creates, which can muddy the gene pool in captives and also sometimes land the breeder in a lot of trouble. Another thing that annoys me is these new keepers will sell whole clutches before hatching and then after they are fresh from the egg in a full clutch combo with little respect for the animals and no interest in anything more then the money. And the last thing that I find annoying is people bartering a breeders price down to nothing only so they can re sell the animals for much more then what they paid for.


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## Evil_Birdy (Jan 3, 2017)

I was flicking through a Gecko thread on a UK herp forum a while ago, and there were loads of pictures of some really stunning Australian geckos in morphs or just with really high contrast patterning. But then one goose (I'm refraining from using worse words here) had posted a picture of a wild marbled velvet gecko and said that it was 'undoubtedly the most ugly gecko he'd ever seen.' This was followed by agreement from some of the other members in comments below. Needless to say I was so disgusted I immediately left that site. 

I'm not a gecko person, but wild marbled geckos are beautiful because of the way that they seem to glow at night when light is shined on them (or at least that's the effect that the pictures give.) I would really like to tell that person that if our native animals are too ugly for him then he shouldn't have any at all.


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## kley (Jan 16, 2017)

the nicest carpet I have ever seen was a wild 1 in my backyard bought it to the house to show the kids then released it back where I found him, stunning patterns and colour (well I think so anyway)


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## cement (Jan 22, 2017)

Being a relocator on the central coast for 10+ years, I think many people would actually be surprised at the naturally occurring morphs that are out there in the wild. Anything available in the hobby has or is slithering around out there. Wild snakes can look a bit dull or ordinary until they shed. My local python subspecies here is the yellow diamond. I have caught and released everything from the most melanistic to the most high, high yellow, and everything in between. There are striped carpets in the wild around the nth coast and queensland as well as hypo etc, etc. The albino morph was initially a wild caught juvenile that was taken into captivity and bred.
The only morphs that don't naturally occur and therefore are not in the wild are the jags and the hybrids, (by hybrid I mean crossing of subspecies or species, lets not start a scientific debate on hybrids !) many of these diamond cross bredli or cross carpet, cross jungle cross whatever don't look anywhere near as good as some wild caught diamonds I have seen, and the owners or breeders of these are basically pleasuring themselves when they put up photos saying how great they are.. The biggest buzz I get as a relocator and a self proclaimed protector of wild snakes, is the releasing of a wild animal back into its own environment , that would fetch hundreds of dollars in the hobby. Its an internal happiness, that most older and true herpers can only understand.


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## Buggster (Jan 22, 2017)

When looking around on some (American, I believe) forums regarding snakes and morphs, I was absolutely disgusted and horrified by one topic on the forum that went on and on about how boring wild type Australian pythons were, and how, when breeding their own 'super fancy' morphs, they would probably end up killing (not euthanasing or selling, KILLING) any 'normals' or borings.
What was even more shocking was how many of the comments agreed with this. Another person went on to say that all 'normal' types should be euthanised because they were a 'waste of space' or making all of them unable to produce.

I can't remember entirely, but I do believe they were discussing Jungle's.

Regardless of the species, have any of you guys ever seen an 'ugly' Aussie snake? I sure haven't. 

It really did upset me to see all of those people who could not see the beauty and individuality that each wildtype snake is. That they were seen as a waste product of breeding. 

Personally I prefer the wildtypes to some of the new things coming out- YES the morphs are amazing looking animals, but I really do love and appreciate the 'how they were made' look.
It's why, when buying my Stimson's I paid $200 for a pure Wheatbelt hatchy instead of $80 'mixed heritage' one.
It's why I paid $300 for my RHD Woma and spent weeks searching for a locale specific one rather than just a 'woma'.
That's why now I'm combing through the web looking for a pure Diamond to add to the collection.

Nothing is better than seeing a snake in its natural habit- nothing better than seeing their natural beauty. 

Sure, my little Stimmie isn't the flashiest, brightest, most colourful snake out there, but he's the prettiest Stimsons in the world! (Not that I'm biased or anything xD)


I only see two bad sides to the hobby.
1. Bad people
2. I CANT STOP BUYING MORE SNAKES HELP


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## pinefamily (Jan 22, 2017)

It's called Reptiles Anonymous.....


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## Callum Dureau (Jan 23, 2017)

But that's america for you... not being racist, but when it comes to reptiles, they... are not very bright. Most of the morphs they have there are a result of inbreeding.


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## ShaunMorelia (Jan 23, 2017)

Callum Dureau said:


> ...Most of the morphs they have there are a result of inbreeding.


I think you'll find that most of the mutations that are in the Ball python Market are sourced directly from the wild and imported.
While you may also be correct as all recessive mutations require a certain degree of inbreeding to replicate.

Inbreeding in reptiles is a whole other topic of discussion.


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## jase13 (Jan 27, 2017)

I totally agree with u cement. Unfortunatly i live in gippsland victoria, so i dont get to see any wild pythons down here. But i do love seeing the massive differences between tiger snakes around my area.
And i cant agree more with the point about hybrids. People want to charge massive money for cross bred snakes, and i cant help but think its a mongrel. No one pays top dollar for a cross bred dog! I know natural morphs are out there, but the problem i have (and its a personal thing, not saying its right or wrong, each to their own) but cross breeding or in breeding to get a fancy pattern or colour just isnt appealing to me. But i spose theres a market out there or there wouldnt be so many out there


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 29, 2017)

Personally, many of the albino morphs don't do much for me. Scaleless types even less. If I didn't want an animal with scales, I would not be interested in reptiles. 

Wild types are just as beautiful and I try to source animals with a pure, or close to, locality, even if I have to source wild caught animals. I like having some of the "wild" close to home, in a way. But I always feel a deep sense of guilt that my silly ideals (especially after reading your post, cement) may result with the possible taking of an animal from the wild due to my creating a demand for it. Sometimes I even consider tossing it all out the window and acquiring an animal from unknown origins just to reduce the demand for wild caught animals. I probably should but my selfish reasons always get in the way. But out of all the morphs out there, I have to say that I am a sucker for the dark, or melanistic critters. Luckily for me, they occur in the species that naturally already live here in Western Australia!


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## dragonlover1 (Jan 29, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Personally, many of the albino morphs don't do much for me. Scaleless types even less. If I didn't want an animal with scales, I would not be interested in reptiles.


I'm with you on that one,I started with beardies and still have them.Now they have silkbacks & dunners ;if I wanted skinks I would get skinks.I love beardies for their roughness and their sandstone colours.Yes I have a hypo and a leatherback but still prefer the normals.


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## WeirdzandBeardz (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi guys, long time reader first time commenter! I think this is a brilliant thread to get involved in because it sums up a lot if my thoughts on the hobby. 

I'm based in Sydney and I've been in the hobby around three years. I agree that there is a divide between the purists and morph breeders in many ways. My major interest is in small dragons and unique species. If you asked me when I got into the hobby if I'd have some of the species I do now I'd say there was no chance they'd be in captivity or easy to find for sale.

A lot of people with collections of purists animals and locales keep to themselves, for two reasons I believe - 1) They don't want to get robbed! 2) They don't want to get swamped with scummy new hobbiest wanting a cheap deal on a finiky species. 

A lot of the less uncommon species and locales I've acquired have all been through non-public sales (all legal on license stuff!) where someone has been like 'would you like this species?' 

Where I am going with this is that morph breeders will absolutely cram down everyone's throat the 'next big thing' to generate a cult fan club and then they can sell anything at an inflated price because everyone wants to be cool. With so many purists keeping quite there is rarely any attention on uncommon species and nobody knows or cares about them. I think if people start talking about them and drawing attention back to them a lot of things could easily take off! 

For instance I recently posted on a public Facebook page I'd hatched a baby Burtons. I kid you not I had about ten people message me wanting to buy some, one of which was asking in behalf of a zoo. 

I think people need to get inspired to want an animal. The sad reality is Facebook (which is where morphs really develop cult followings) dictates that for most of this generation as very few of them will ever actually get out and herp to see wild animals.

Also, two cents on Americans and ball pythons. I'm on an American Facebook group where an admin buys wild type ball pythons nobody wants to live feed to his cobra. The American hobby is about a million times more disgusting than Australia. 

Sent from my HTC_0P6B6 using Tapatalk


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## Nero Egernia (Jan 30, 2017)

WeirdzandBeardz said:


> A lot of people with collections of purists animals and locales keep to themselves, for two reasons I believe - 1) They don't want to get robbed! 2) They don't want to get swamped with scummy new hobbiest wanting a cheap deal on a finiky species.
> 
> A lot of the less uncommon species and locales I've acquired have all been through non-public sales (all legal on license stuff!) where someone has been like 'would you like this species?'
> 
> ...



Thanks for the input WeirdzandBeardz.

Why do people keep to themselves? I haven't been in the hobby for long, but I can take a guess. After an absolutely ridiculous display on one of the reptile Facebook groups I sometimes frequent, I can understand why people keep to themselves. The attitudes of some people in the hobby simply disgust me and it feels like I've been taken back to high school where supposed adults are behaving like a stampeding hoard of hormonal teenagers, debating who has the best and most expensive iPhone, with the coolest and newest apps.

This attitude sometimes makes me want to fade in the woodwork too, and to admire my collection for what they are, and not for being the most expensive and illusive morph out there (which they're not). I'm sure no one will miss me either because I don't have a big name and many of the animals I find desirable are considered to be dull. And that's the way I want it to stay. But for now I still have an incentive to post because I like to talk about reptiles because I love them.

I feel if people need "inspiration" to want an underrated or uncommon reptile, such as plastering it all over social media and mooching it off as the next "big thing" then perhaps that particular reptile is not for them. The only inspiration you need is seeing it in the wild or in reptile field guides.


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## pinefamily (Jan 30, 2017)

And you can post away here on APS Oshkii, instead of the dreaded social media. We love reptiles too!


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## WeirdzandBeardz (Jan 31, 2017)

I think another big thing about people keeping collections quiet after a while is that they develop a network of people they trust.

It's so much nicer trading or selling to a friend because you know they aren't going to dick you around and your confident in their abilities. I've moved on a couple of clutches of eggs this season with no public sales simply because I've had friends asked for them. I agree with you too Oshkii that it's also a hell of a lot nicer not dealing with all the lowballing scummy people that are in the hobby. 

On the note of inspiration as well, I think a lot of people take money as inspiration in the hobby. the next big thing = the next big dollar and I'm sure that's why a lot of people keep certain animals. At one point I was wondering if I was subconsciously going down that pathway, but dawned on me that I love my jacky dragons as much as my monitors and keep and breed both for the enjoyment, not the money. If I wanted the money I would have flogged the jackys off and used their tank for more monitors haha

The positive of it all is that there are so many good keepers out there that always get forgotten! The hobby is riddled with scumbags, but also filled with passionate people... You just have to find them!


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## cement (Feb 4, 2017)

Being a purist came under a lot of fire a few years ago when the underhanded money grubbing jag crew "surprisingly" had jags just hatch out in their collections. It was before facebook, and the forums were full of bickering, with many people like myself being banned from sites because we were openly telling the truth, which was against the agendas of many, even some certain site moderators, so site bannings were being handed out like jaffas if you were a purist, for ridiculous reasons. I have even had a jag breeder call me by phone and try to tell me that because I made a post on here regarding white lipped pythons, that I was no better then the scum bags that smuggled in the jags, and in particular, him. he didn't have the brains to realise that a post on here, wasn't the same as actually keeping the animals and therefore buying into the smuggling.! 
The best thing I ever did was turn my back on the hobby, and simply go about my business of relocating and looking after my collection. The hobby was so distasteful, I started to lose enthusiasm for reptiles in general, but now that the "other side" is all on face book, and I am not, my passion has come back and I am quite happy staying away from all the bullshit, and going about my work with our wild native animals. Without these animals, there would never even be a hobby, therefore, an enlightened person who is grateful for their life and what they have, would easily see the beauty of even the most shabbiest wild type reptile. They can have their one-up-manship, and their "projects", and their deep seated moral insecurities that has become rife, and shove it. 
My biggest concern was that jags would escape, and breed. To date, I haven't caught one yet, but I have caught many unidentifiable python sub-species crosses. Sometimes they are "clean" others are covered in mites. Not what we want out there in the wild.


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## kittycat17 (Feb 4, 2017)

cement said:


> Being a purist came under a lot of fire a few years ago when the underhanded money grubbing jag crew "surprisingly" had jags just hatch out in their collections. It was before facebook, and the forums were full of bickering, with many people like myself being banned from sites because we were openly telling the truth, which was against the agendas of many, even some certain site moderators, so site bannings were being handed out like jaffas if you were a purist, for ridiculous reasons. I have even had a jag breeder call me by phone and try to tell me that because I made a post on here regarding white lipped pythons, that I was no better then the scum bags that smuggled in the jags, and in particular, him. he didn't have the brains to realise that a post on here, wasn't the same as actually keeping the animals and therefore buying into the smuggling.!
> The best thing I ever did was turn my back on the hobby, and simply go about my business of relocating and looking after my collection. The hobby was so distasteful, I started to lose enthusiasm for reptiles in general, but now that the "other side" is all on face book, and I am not, my passion has come back and I am quite happy staying away from all the bullshit, and going about my work with our wild native animals. Without these animals, there would never even be a hobby, therefore, an enlightened person who is grateful for their life and what they have, would easily see the beauty of even the most shabbiest wild type reptile. They can have their one-up-manship, and their "projects", and their deep seated moral insecurities that has become rife, and shove it.
> My biggest concern was that jags would escape, and breed. To date, I haven't caught one yet, but I have caught many unidentifiable python sub-species crosses. Sometimes they are "clean" others are covered in mites. Not what we want out there in the wild.



Yup after being harrassed and abused on fb last year I got of all the reptile groups and bullshit and I can agree life is much happier now 


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## Nero Egernia (Feb 5, 2017)

I only have a Facebook account so I can see what's happening on the reptile scene, but other than that I have little to do with it. I try to keep it that way, although my activity on there has been increasing of late, but now that the business is looking to be done I can fade back into the woodwork. It's good that there are some good people still out there in the hobby. I'm happy to say I have dealt with a few. Unfortunately the scumbags appear to outnumber them.


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## dragonlover1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Unfortunately the scumbags appear to outnumber them.


Unfortunately I have to agree with you


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## Pythons Rule (Feb 21, 2017)

Buggster said:


> When looking around on some (American, I believe) forums regarding snakes and morphs, I was absolutely disgusted and horrified by one topic on the forum that went on and on about how boring wild type Australian pythons were, and how, when breeding their own 'super fancy' morphs, they would probably end up killing (not euthanasing or selling, KILLING) any 'normals' or borings.
> What was even more shocking was how many of the comments agreed with this. Another person went on to say that all 'normal' types should be euthanised because they were a 'waste of space' or making all of them unable to produce.
> 
> I can't remember entirely, but I do believe they were discussing Jungle's.
> ...




need to remember that aussie snakes in the usa are no where near as nice as the stuff we have here, and its very very hard for them to have pure lines most are crosses or jag sibs. and yes they have a lot of overstock and a lot of ugly looking muddied specimens caused from crossing etc. They also have different rules and laws over there with keeping and breeding animals to us. Another thing pythons aren't worth a tone of money over there and jags are everywhere. I don't personally agree with their practices but if no one controlled the amount of animals being produced then there will be a lot of animals being released into the wild when they aren't from there which in tern will become gator and retic food.


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## Nero Egernia (Feb 21, 2017)

Pythons Rule said:


> need to remember that aussie snakes in the usa are no where near as nice as the stuff we have here, and its very very hard for them to have pure lines most are crosses or jag sibs. and yes they have a lot of overstock and a lot of ugly looking muddied specimens caused from crossing etc.



Beauty is a subjective thing. While you may find dark muddied specimens ugly, others may find them beautiful.


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## Waterrat (Feb 21, 2017)

I see that quite a few people here are knocking face book. Each to their own but FB is great if you join the groups that are dealing with specific interest and stay away from the ones where every Dick & Harry express their two bob worth opinion. The thing I like about FB is, people open accounts with their real names, so you know whom you're talking to and it also suppresses (to a degree) nasty comments from keyboard warriors hiding behind their alias. 
Many topics that are discussed here were discussed in far more detail with high level of integrity in many of the specialist groups. JMO

cheers
Michael


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## Pythons Rule (Feb 21, 2017)

Waterrat said:


> I see that quite a few people here are knocking face book. Each to their own but FB is great if you join the groups that are dealing with specific interest and stay away from the ones where every Dick & Harry express their two bob worth opinion. The thing I like about FB is, people open accounts with their real names, so you know whom you're talking to and it also suppresses (to a degree) nasty comments from keyboard warriors hiding behind their alias.
> Many topics that are discussed here were discussed in far more detail with high level of integrity in many of the specialist groups. JMO
> 
> cheers
> Michael



I used it because its a great way to meet others with a specific interest like yourself but there is still a lot of people that go there to troll sellers


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## Waterrat (Feb 22, 2017)

That's true but you can block trolls. Easy solution.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 24, 2017)

I have a silkback. I didn't get him because of the scale/no scale issue, but because he seemed the healthiest and most alert of his group of hatchies. Of course I'll never breed him, and I'm aware of the shedding issues, so he gets a warm bath daily. Other than that, my entire group of reptiles are wildtype. I hope you guys understand... I'm not advocating the creation of silkies or anything, but I just believe that they shouldn't just be frozen. What people should do is stop creating them, because I personally believe it's quite unfair to kill them when it was us who bred them into existance. People these days... whats wrong with the good old beardie?


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## Wally (Jun 24, 2017)

Welcome to the forum SpottedPythons.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 24, 2017)

Thx!!


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 24, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> I have a silkback. I didn't get him because of the scale/no scale issue, but because he seemed the healthiest and most alert of his group of hatchies. Of course I'll never breed him, and I'm aware of the shedding issues, so he gets a warm bath daily. Other than that, my entire group of reptiles are wildtype. I hope you guys understand... I'm not advocating the creation of silkies or anything, but I just believe that they shouldn't just be frozen. What people should do is stop creating them, because I personally believe it's quite unfair to kill them when it was us who bred them into existance. People these days... whats wrong with the good old beardie?


I agree with you,why try to turn a bearded dragon into a skink?? Nothing against skinks we own several but if you want a skink ,buy a skink! I have a hypo and a leatherback but wouldn't go any further.I love beardies because they are beardies.


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## Wally (Jun 24, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I agree with you,why try to turn a bearded dragon into a skink?? Nothing against skinks we own several but if you want a skink ,buy a skink! I have a hypo and a leatherback but wouldn't go any further.I love beardies because they are beardies.



I think the folding stuff had more to do with their creation rather than a skink impersonation.


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## Sheldoncooper (Jun 24, 2017)

Wally said:


> I think the folding stuff had more to do with their creation rather than a skink impersonation.


I agree. Its a crap gene and should of been euthanized at the start. And the first person that had silkback gene would of known that before trying to breed it. If u had a bearded born with 3 legs would u breed that deformity as a carry on gene ? 

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## SpottedPythons (Jun 25, 2017)

Sheldoncooper said:


> I agree. Its a crap gene and should of been euthanized at the start. And the first person that had silkback gene would of known that before trying to breed it. If u had a bearded born with 3 legs would u breed that deformity as a carry on gene ?


Yes, it would've been much easier to have just not delved into these genes at all from the start. But now, since they're here, my opinion is to give those that are already in existance good lives and not breed anymore.


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 25, 2017)

Wally said:


> I think the folding stuff had more to do with their creation rather than a skink impersonation.


I agree with you Wally,I wasn't trying to insinuate something like an impersonation rather the bastardisation of something we know and love.
Obviously the silkbacks wouldn't survive in the wild,but they shouldn't be in captivity either.(Unless you're into freaks)


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## Wally (Jun 26, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I agree with you Wally,I wasn't trying to insinuate something like an impersonation rather the bastardisation of something we know and love.
> Obviously the silkbacks wouldn't survive in the wild,but they shouldn't be in captivity either.(Unless you're into freaks)



The info on the oversees sites on what people do to keep them alive makes my skin crawl.

No pun intended.


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 26, 2017)

I was at a breeders house recently and when I spoke of my distaste for silkies he pointed to 1 and I realized it didn't actually have a beard


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## Nero Egernia (Jun 27, 2017)

Skinks are awesome. While I don't know if I can pick a favourite group of lizard, I know that some of my favourite lizards are definitely skinks! 

While in Western Australia we can't keep large species Bearded Dragons I've always admired their beautiful, prehistoric spiny appearance. Their beard displays are amazing. To think that people prefer them with no beards or spines is bewildering. What health problems do silkbacks normally experience?


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## Callum Dureau (Jun 27, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Skinks are awesome. While I don't know if I can pick a favourite group of lizard, I know that some of my favourite lizards are definitely skinks!
> 
> While in Western Australia we can't keep large species Bearded Dragons I've always admired their beautiful, prehistoric spiny appearance. Their beard displays are amazing. To think that people prefer them with no beards or spines is bewildering. What health problems do silkbacks normally experience?


Shedding problems mainly, I believe.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 27, 2017)

Yes, they do get shedding issues. I bath mine every night and use HerpaShed regularly. As I've said above, I don't advocate production of silkbacks but want to give those that have already been created good homes until they stop being produced. Sort of like a silkback sanctuary rather than just euthanising them.


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## Wally (Jun 27, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Yes, they do get shedding issues. I bath mine every night and use HerpaShed regularly. As I've said above, I don't advocate production of silkbacks but want to give those that have already been created good homes until they stop being produced. Sort of like a silkback sanctuary rather than just euthanising them.



I don't doubt your intentions but the truth is they will continue to be bred whilst people are still willing to buy them.

Their whole existence relies on everthing that flys in the face of their ancestors evolution. I guess that's the part I struggle with, whether they are a pet or not.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 27, 2017)

Yes, it's sad but there's next to nothing we can do about it...


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## Callum Dureau (Jun 27, 2017)

Raising awareness about the problem might help...? Just thinking


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## dragonlover1 (Jun 27, 2017)

Callum Dureau said:


> Raising awareness about the problem might help...? Just thinking


I don't think that will make much difference,some people just have to have certain things.Doesn't matter whether it is ethical or good for the animal or society.It's human nature/greed;gimme,gimme,gimme


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## Callum Dureau (Jun 27, 2017)

Like I said, just a thought


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jun 27, 2017)

Wally said:


> The info on the oversees sites on what people do to keep them alive makes my skin crawl.
> 
> No pun intended.



Please Wally continue. I have no idea as I don't have a great deal to do Dragons at all.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 28, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Please Wally continue. I have no idea as I don't have a great deal to do Dragons at all.


Force feeding, ripping off stuck skin, amputating toes and tails, breeding them to normals/leathers (when they mate, dragons bite the female), etc. etc. It's horrible.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 28, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Force feeding, ripping off stuck skin, amputating toes and tails, breeding them to normals/leathers (when they mate, dragons bite the female), etc. etc. It's horrible.


Oh, and they also keep them permanently in small boxes with nothing but water in them.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 28, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> I was at a breeders house recently and when I spoke of my distaste for silkies he pointed to 1 and I realized it didn't actually have a beard


They actually do have beards, although it only becomes obvious when they puff up.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 28, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> Yes, they do get shedding issues. I bath mine every night and use HerpaShed regularly. As I've said above, I don't advocate production of silkbacks but want to give those that have already been created good homes until they stop being produced. Sort of like a silkback sanctuary rather than just euthanising them.


Here's a pic of mine. The second one is him with Bumpy the Bluetongue.


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## Wally (Jun 28, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Please Wally continue. I have no idea as I don't have a great deal to do Dragons at all.



Without linking a bunch of forums that may go against our own forum rules just google "should silkback Bearded Dragons be bred". It's there for all to see.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Jun 29, 2017)

Wally said:


> Without linking a bunch of forums that may go against our own forum rules just google "should silkback Bearded Dragons be bred". It's there for all to see.



Mmmmm. Not much one can say really. I was often told if you have nothing positive to say then say nothing. Well I guess this is one of those moments.


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## pinefamily (Jun 29, 2017)

Agreed. There is nothing positive about silkbacks IMO.


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## SpottedPythons (Jun 30, 2017)

But I just hope you guys understand my situation.


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## Sheldoncooper (Jul 1, 2017)

Oshkii said:


> Skinks are awesome. While I don't know if I can pick a favourite group of lizard, I know that some of my favourite lizards are definitely skinks!
> 
> While in Western Australia we can't keep large species Bearded Dragons I've always admired their beautiful, prehistoric spiny appearance. Their beard displays are amazing. To think that people prefer them with no beards or spines is bewildering. What health problems do silkbacks normally experience?


They can have horrible Shedding issues.
There tolerance to uv is alot less however they still require uv as the rest of the dragon hasn't evolved to suit its deformity. There skin is so much thinner and the females can be torn open during breeding. There original cost early on was ludicrous upwards of $3000. I've seen them advertised recently for 50 to $100 and still not sold. So i believe people are seing them for what they are. 

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## Sheldoncooper (Jul 1, 2017)

SpottedPythons said:


> But I just hope you guys understand my situation.


Totally understand what your saying I'm similar. One of my eclectus parrots was born with severe rickets and has a bent spine, which is usually due to lack of calcium in the hen because she's been over bred. I took the bird $900. And reported the breeder. He's my favorite animal [emoji4] he's a highly intelligent little smart ars# that i wouldn't give up for quids. 

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