# Cheaper alternative to heat cages.



## Djbowker (Jan 17, 2014)

I've just finished making 2 3 bay melamine enclosures, and am playing on running heat lamps inside them.
But the cheapest heat cages in town are $45, heat cages for them would cost more than the melamine did.

Has anyone found a cheaper alternative?


----------



## Rogue5861 (Jan 17, 2014)

Ive seen mesh pencil holders or mess baskets used before, a lot cheaper then purpose built but not as easy to get into.


Rick


----------



## RoryBreaker (Jan 17, 2014)

Assuming your enclosures are for snakes,

The cheaper alternative would be to ditch the lamps and use a heat cord instead. Just zigzag the heat cord beneath a sealed pane of glass. Then use some LED lights for your own benefit to illuminate the enclosure. As your location is central queensland ( going by your user details), you may be able to get away with a cord of relatively low wattage.


----------



## Lawra (Jan 17, 2014)

eBay! 

Or check on Facebook if there are any local reptile buy, swap & sell pages. I know that the ones I'm a member of sell plenty of things like light cages much cheaper than RRP.


----------



## Djbowker (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm using heatmats for my 6 bank juvenile python enclosure, and contemplated using heat cords, but I've never used them before.
How reliable are they?


----------



## RoryBreaker (Jan 17, 2014)

Heat cords will outlast the thermostat. Thermostats and/or dimmers are the weakest link in any heating system for enclosures.


----------



## saximus (Jan 17, 2014)

If you're set on using heat lamps, you can make your own cages. I made mine out if metal gutter guard from bunnings. It's the perfect width


----------



## Norm (Jan 17, 2014)

saximus said:


> If you're set on using heat lamps, you can make your own cages. I made mine out if metal gutter guard from bunnings. It's the perfect width



Agree with saximus, pretty easy to make out of a sheet of wire mesh from bunnings. Simply cut out a cross pattern, something like a big plus (+) sign and bend it into a rectangular prism with an open end. Join the corners with cable ties and screw to the top of your enclosure. You can even leave some excess on the top to bend horizontally to give you something to screw to the top of your enclosure.


----------



## Djbowker (Jan 17, 2014)

I had an extensive look at bunnings today to find something neat, but your idea norm didn't even cross my mind.
I'm not set on using lamps, I've just never used a heat cord.
Do they need to be thermostat controlled?


----------



## Norm (Jan 17, 2014)

Djbowker said:


> I had an extensive look at bunnings today to find something neat, but your idea norm didn't even cross my mind.
> I'm not set on using lamps, I've just never used a heat cord.
> Do they need to be thermostat controlled?



I can`t take credit for it, I got it from someone else. 
As far as thermostats go, no they don`t need to be controlled by one. But its best if they are. I use globes and its possible to use varying wattages to get the temps you want but on hot days your cages will get extremely hot without a thermostat to switch off your heat source. I`ve done it both ways and prefer the peace of mind of knowing if I`m at work or away on holiday, on a hot day my thermostat is going to turn off the heat globes.


----------



## Djbowker (Jan 17, 2014)

All my heat globes are controlled by Thermostats, and luckily enough at the moment in CQ we are getting 30-35 degree heat daily, so I don't need to rush out and buy 5 new thermostats to run lights that wouldn't be on anyway.


----------



## saximus (Jan 18, 2014)

Heat cords can get really hot if you have the rows running close together so it is best to have a thermostat. The thing with them though is you're controlling surface temp instead of air so 34-35 is typical sort of range to aim for for a lot of oython


----------



## disintegratus (Jan 18, 2014)

saximus said:


> Heat cords can get really hot if you have the rows running close together so *it is best to have a thermostat*. The thing with them though is you're controlling surface temp instead of air so 34-35 is typical sort of range to aim for for a lot of oython



I disagree. I do think it's probably a good idea to run them on a thermostat as a safeguard, but I prefer to run my heat cords either on a timer or just have them constantly running. I set them up so that the maximum temperature reached on top of the tile is not hot enough to burn the snake, that way I don't have the worry of the thermostat crapping out and my snakies getting burnt.


----------



## wokka (Jan 18, 2014)

Globes waste a lot of energy in "transmitting" heat through the air to the snake. Heat mat or cord provides a more direct path.
You mentioned a cheaper alternative in cage construction. Often the cheapest construction can gice you higher recurrent operating costs. 
I have 100 of 1200mm long cages which would require 40 watt globes to provide an adequate hot spot. Instead i use 13 watt heat mats running on a timer for say 12 hour a day. I haven't replaced any in 5 years. I dont use thermostats because I control my ambient temperature by housing cages in an inuslated room. I manually flick the heat off if there is a heat wave on the way but you could have a master thermostat do that when the ambient gets say over 27C.
Over the 5 years I have used 5(years) x365(days) x12(hours)x100(cages)x .013(heatmatt) =28,470kilowatt hours @ say $0.3 =$8541 or say $17 per cage per year. It actually doesn't cost me that as i have a solar system on my shed which returns about $10,000 a year.
If i used lights the power used would be about tripple (40W per cage vs 13W). Over the 5 years I would have to replace a number of globes, probably hundreds. Many keepers would probably run 100 thermostats- another $5-10,000 to purchase , breakdown and replace.
The figures are ballpark but what i am suggesting is that you need to consider operation not just construction and, ease of operation not just dollars.


----------



## saximus (Jan 18, 2014)

disintegratus said:


> I disagree. I do think it's probably a good idea to run them on a thermostat as a safeguard, but I prefer to run my heat cords either on a timer or just have them constantly running. I set them up so that the maximum temperature reached on top of the tile is not hot enough to burn the snake, that way I don't have the worry of the thermostat crapping out and my snakies getting burnt.



Which is why I qualified it by saying it depends how far apart your runs are. I have a heat "pad" that I made the first time I ever used cord which is capable of getting to 60. I agree a better design would be more ideal but it illustrates the point I was trying to make.


----------



## marcus0002 (Jan 18, 2014)

Can get cages for $25 on ebay


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Jan 18, 2014)

$45 ey?

Sounds like cheap insurance to me!
How much is your pet worth?


----------



## Trimeresurus (Jan 18, 2014)

Snake-Supplies said:


> $45 ey?
> 
> Sounds like cheap insurance to me!
> How much is your pet worth?



Is that because you sell snake replies?

You can make a cage for far cheaper...just like those stupid brand names on globes at ridiculous prices which are $3 at bunnings.


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Jan 18, 2014)

Trimeresurus-
I love how you jump straight on the negative bandwagon...

1. I don't sell cages, so therefore throw out the idea I'm trying to sell some or justify the cost for my own benefit...
if that was your intention of course.

2. Is your pets life not worth the $45?
Which is all I basically asked.

3. Some people like myself, wouldn't have time and some probably don't have the tools or skills necessary to make them whatever that may be (I've never made them)

4. Depending how many you need to make, would it not be worth just paying the $45 (I have seen cheaper but not allowed to link to other websites) instead of driving around, finding the equipment, putting it together and hoping it works out just as good?

So I don't care if I sell reptile gear or not, I basically stated that they are worth every cent (to a degree) some are over priced and $45 is a high dollar, you can find them for around $20 if you keep looking.


----------



## Djbowker (Jan 18, 2014)

Snake-Supplies said:


> $45 ey?
> 
> Sounds like cheap insurance to me!
> How much is your pet worth?



$45 at shops which now thanks to this thread I've found them for $16 - $25 each, for the exact same product.


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Jan 18, 2014)

Djbowker said:


> $45 at shops which now thanks to this thread I've found them for $16 - $25 each, for the exact same product.



There is a guy who can get them cheap, never dealt with him but if you want his contact message me.
I think his are around the $20 mark by memory, naturally you'll need to pay postage... but he's much cheaper.


----------



## wokka (Jan 18, 2014)

I used these for a while when i had globes. I bought a hundred for about $8 each but i couldn't get any more.They just screwed on the light fitting like a normal light shade. They seemed to work fine and doubled as a perch.


----------



## Snake-Supplies (Jan 18, 2014)

wokka said:


> I used these for a while when i had globes. I bought a hundred for about $8 each but i couldn't get any more.They just screwed on the light fitting like a normal light shade. They seemed to work fine and doubled as a perch.




That's clever, did they hold up good?
Did they block any heat getting to the bottom?


----------



## wokka (Jan 18, 2014)

Some are still in the cages 5 years later but over time the ceiling rose has pulled of the ceiling . I guess two 15mm scews into melomine isn't enough to hold a 10 kilo olive. Thats just a design or installation fault. A bolt right through with big washer would fix it but I am happy using mats now. You could make something similiar with pvc pipe and a couple of end caps , but i am sure you could find light shades again if you want to use globes.
My cages are only 300mm high so that I dont waste energy heating air unecessarily, but i think you will find that plastic has a very low insulation factor and so shouldn't block heat.


----------



## Trimeresurus (Jan 18, 2014)

Snake-Supplies said:


> Trimeresurus-
> I love how you jump straight on the negative bandwagon...
> 
> 1. I don't sell cages, so therefore throw out the idea I'm trying to sell some or justify the cost for my own benefit...
> ...



$45 is not worth every cent when you can get them cheaper, I do apologize for jumping the gun at you simply for your name though.


----------



## Ramsayi (Jan 18, 2014)

For some species it is wise to heat the air.Tropical species will end up with health issues if only supplied with belly heat in a cool cage.


----------



## Jayyskii (Feb 18, 2014)

Call me cheap, but i picked up some Aluminium Mesh Pencil holders for $2.50 ea from the local 2 dollar shop (hot dollar) Perfect fit for a Infrared globe! and just cable tied them to my mesh lid.:lol:


----------



## tahnia666 (Feb 18, 2014)

wokka said:


> I used these for a while when i had globes. I bought a hundred for about $8 each but i couldn't get any more.They just screwed on the light fitting like a normal light shade. They seemed to work fine and doubled as a perch.



Ha!! That's awesome!!

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## imported_Varanus (Feb 19, 2014)

Could 12V dichroic's ($30 from Bunnings) be an option? No cages necessary then and available in 20-35-50W....just saying.


----------



## James_Scott (Feb 19, 2014)

I find it funny. I have been a member of this site for many years now and have found that day has been to save money instead of what's best for the animal. I am not using light cages as an example because I know they are expensive to buy in this country particularly if it comes with power cords and ceramic sockets as it needs to pass Australian standards which is an expensive exercise. I am a supplier of reptile products but make a lot of products myself purely because you can't get them in this country not because it's too expensive.
I got into reptile supplies to bring products in that aren't available in Australia (at great personal expense) 
I have been to people's homes and seen animals in horrific conditions and the owners quite proud saying "yeah, I made it for under $100".
The day in this country is undergoing some change for the better I hope. If you look at European vivarium groups you will see most is day and no expense has been spared. Each enclosure is like a zoo display and that is where did needs to go. Cheap is rarely better or safer than products that have been tested by Australian standards (this process is often skipped by eBay suppliers).
I'm all for did enclosures, backgrounds, hides, water bowls etc but it it is electrical please leave it to the experts. If it is just a simple cage you are after think of what it is made of. Many metals will heat up so much that the cage will be nearly as hot as the light. Specified light cages are made usually of aluminum which doesn't heat up as much. I know cost is a concern but would you get a dog if you couldn't provide it with a kennel, water and feed bowls, leads, vet bills etc. Reptiles should have the same amount of consideration. If you can't afford the safe and proper equipment then don't get them.


----------



## TheReptileCove (Feb 19, 2014)

Went to my local pet shop and saw they were $45 - $50. So like others had suggested i hopped on ebay and got myself one for $15 instead.


----------



## James_Scott (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm curious. Is $45 including power lead with switch and ceramic holder? If it is then $45 is fair if it is just a plain cage then it's very expensive.


----------



## TheReptileCove (Feb 19, 2014)

James_Scott said:


> I'm curious. Is $45 including power lead with switch and ceramic holder? If it is then $45 is fair if it is just a plain cage then it's very expensive.



At the shop i went to it was just the cage


----------



## James_Scott (Feb 19, 2014)

thereptilecove said:


> at the shop i went to it was just the cage


wow!!


----------



## JAS101 (Feb 19, 2014)

yeah iv seen them for $45 for just the cage and $60 with the ceramic socket and lead .


----------



## Norm (Feb 19, 2014)

This is what I have in most of my cages. I didn't make these, they came with the cages.
View attachment 305845
View attachment 305846

They've come out turned on the side, tilt your head.


----------



## Djbowker (Feb 19, 2014)

Norm said:


> This is what I have in most of my cages. I didn't make these, they came with the cages.
> View attachment 305845
> View attachment 305846
> 
> They've come out turned on the side, tilt your head.



Pictures won't work mate.

I got a heap of cages off eBay, $17 each and they're great.
I'll PM anyone the seller.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Feb 19, 2014)

Often not stated by the OP, there are few questions that always seem to come to mind when I read a husbandry thread.... What species and size? Where? Main enclosure features and location. Is just me???

*Norm*, the attachment did not work



RoryBreaker said:


> .... Just zigzag the heat cord beneath a sealed pane of glass. ....


Unless you know about the different types of glass, I would not recommend using it. Unsuitable types will ultimately crack or shatter (sometimes years down the track) from the expansion and contraction. Most glass is brittle and readily shatters on impact with anything hard. Slate or ceramic tiles look good, have a high specific heat and are good conductors, which is what a cold reptile’s body plonked on top needs. They are readily available, cheap and durable. 



saximus said:


> Which is why I qualified it by saying it depends how far apart your runs are. I have a heat "pad" that I made the first time I ever used cord which is capable of getting to 60. I agree a better design would be more ideal but it illustrates the point I was trying to make.


In addition to the spacing between loops of heat cord, the total wattage vs the operative length is also critical in determining the temperature that can be reached. For example, a 15 W cord at 4 m length runs at 3.8 W/m, while an 80 W cord at 9 m runs at 8.9 W/m, a considerable difference. The point made on spacing is why I recommend a water-proofed wooden base, with spaced grooves in both directions, to allow the cord to be recessed and held securely in place. (Of crossing over is never allowed.)



Ramsayi said:


> For some species it is wise to heat the air.Tropical species will end up with health issues if only supplied with belly heat in a cool cage.


What actual species does this apply to?



I see nothing wrong with reducing costs so long as the needs of the animal are being properly catered for. Conversely, spending lots of money does not, of itself, provide any guarantee of good husbandry. 

Any heating cage should pass the touch test if your animal might possibly be able to reach, including jumping and climbing up corners etc. Quite simply, if you cannot hold your hand on it once it has stabilised at its maximium temperature, then it is too hot for the reptile.

Blue


----------



## saximus (Feb 19, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> In addition to the spacing between loops of heat cord, the total wattage vs the operative length is also critical in determining the temperature that can be reached. For example, a 15 W cord at 4 m length runs at 3.8 W/m, while an 80 W cord at 9 m runs at 8.9 W/m, a considerable difference. The point made on spacing is why I recommend a water-proofed wooden base, with spaced grooves in both directions, to allow the cord to be recessed and held securely in place. (Of crossing over is never allowed.)


I don' think that's true Blue. You are neglecting the non-heated part of the cord in your calcs so the difference isn't quite so large. I did it a couple of years ago and basically I worked out that all cords have virtually identical power per unit of length. I'll see if I can find the thread post I made, otherwise I'll work it out again.


----------



## Djbowker (Feb 19, 2014)

James_Scott said:


> I find it funny. I have been a member of this site for many years now and have found that day has been to save money instead of what's best for the animal. I am not using light cages as an example because I know they are expensive to buy in this country particularly if it comes with power cords and ceramic sockets as it needs to pass Australian standards which is an expensive exercise. I am a supplier of reptile products but make a lot of products myself purely because you can't get them in this country not because it's too expensive.
> I got into reptile supplies to bring products in that aren't available in Australia (at great personal expense)
> I have been to people's homes and seen animals in horrific conditions and the owners quite proud saying "yeah, I made it for under $100".
> The day in this country is undergoing some change for the better I hope. If you look at European vivarium groups you will see most is day and no expense has been spared. Each enclosure is like a zoo display and that is where did needs to go. Cheap is rarely better or safer than products that have been tested by Australian standards (this process is often skipped by eBay suppliers).
> I'm all for did enclosures, backgrounds, hides, water bowls etc but it it is electrical please leave it to the experts. If it is just a simple cage you are after think of what it is made of. Many metals will heat up so much that the cage will be nearly as hot as the light. Specified light cages are made usually of aluminum which doesn't heat up as much. I know cost is a concern but would you get a dog if you couldn't provide it with a kennel, water and feed bowls, leads, vet bills etc. Reptiles should have the same amount of consideration. If you can't afford the safe and proper equipment then don't get them.



I agree in parts to of this.
Things like thermostats, I'll only buy industry standard ones from local pet shops that comply with standards.

But the markup on most products is outstanding.
$50 for a cage that I can get off eBay for $17 is phenomenal.
URS and Exoterra selling Batten holders for 6 times the price of that at an electrical wholesaler.
Cages and enclosures at crazy prices.

Most people, especially those who have been around reptiles for ages, unlike me, know of alternatives and methods that look good and are cost effective, hence the reason for this post.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Saximus,* I did take into account the "non-heating part of the cord" which is why I used the term "operative length". The cord lengths and wattages were based on what was available from the Herp Shop at the time. I have not rte-checked the original data but if I get time I will. In the meantime let’s remove one metre of “non-heating cord” from both”, which brings their respective operational lengths to 3 m and 8 m. Using those figures the wattages per metre would be: 15/3 = 5 W/m and 80/8 = 10 W/m, a difference *x 2* as against my x 2.3 in the original calcs. I still consider that quite significant.

Cheers,
Blue


----------



## saximus (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah you might be right sorry. I remember the difference being much smaller than that but I must have made an error at the time


----------



## Norm (Feb 19, 2014)

Sorry about that, pics work for me but no one else it seems. I`ll see if I can fix it.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Feb 19, 2014)

No real need for apologies from either. 

Blue


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Feb 20, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> No real need for apologies from either of you as I have “been there, done that” myself and I understand that it is not through any lack of effort or care or thought on your behalves. Regardless of the outcomes I do appreciate your attempts. Most of all I sincerely applaud the attitude demonstrated. It is a small but insightful reflection of the core values that each of you holds. Values that I am pleased to be able to give positive recognition to.
> 
> Blue



Mike, you sound very patronising with that comment.

Jamie


----------



## James_Scott (Feb 20, 2014)

Djbowker said:


> I agree in parts to of this.
> Things like thermostats, I'll only buy industry standard ones from local pet shops that comply with standards.
> 
> But the markup on most products is outstanding.
> ...




Batton holders are a perfect example of when you should be buying from a reptile supplier. UV tubes run at different wattages to normal tubes and therefore require special batton holders. If it is non uv go for what ever, but if you need UV, then don't skimp. You will not get the correct UV output from the tube and you are just wasting money. I don't think there is a single herper out there that hasn't had this mistake, I know I have. Luckily it hasn't been too disastrous like many who ended up with blind reptiles because the uv was too high or with rbd because the uv output wasn't high enough.


----------



## Snowman (Feb 20, 2014)

James_Scott said:


> Batton holders are a perfect example of when you should be buying from a reptile supplier. UV tubes run at different wattages to normal tubes and therefore require special batton holders. If it is non uv go for what ever, but if you need UV, then don't skimp. You will not get the correct UV output from the tube and you are just wasting money. I don't think there is a single herper out there that hasn't had this mistake, I know I have. Luckily it hasn't been too disastrous like many who ended up with blind reptiles because the uv was too high or with rbd because the uv output wasn't high enough.


Special batton holders? Care to elaborate for this old sparky what you mean by this?


----------



## Djbowker (Feb 20, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Special batton holders? Care to elaborate for this old sparky what you mean by this?



Yeah, I second that question.... Batten holders have nothing to do with Wattage output of a light.

And I was referring to the ceramic ones, that your Edison bulbs go into.


----------



## Snowman (Feb 20, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Saximus,* I did take into account the "non-heating part of the cord" which is why I used the term "operative length". The cord lengths and wattages were based on what was available from the Herp Shop at the time. I have not rte-checked the original data but if I get time I will. In the meantime let’s remove one metre of “non-heating cord” from both”, which brings their respective operational lengths to 3 m and 8 m. Using those figures the wattages per metre would be: 15/3 = 5 W/m and 80/8 = 10 W/m, a difference *x 2* as against my x 2.3 in the original calcs. I still consider that quite significant.
> 
> Cheers,
> Blue



There must be a resistor in the smaller cords or something. For some reason on paper the 15W cord has a higher resistance to the 80W
EG
15W/240v=0.062A Therefore: 240V/0.062A=3870 ohms
80W/240V=0.3333A Therefore: 240V/0.3333=720 ohms


----------



## Djbowker (Feb 20, 2014)

Snowman said:


> There must be a resistor in the smaller cords or something. For some reason on paper the 15W cord has a higher resistance to the 80W
> EG
> 15W/240v=0.062A Therefore: 240V/0.062A=3870 ohms
> 80W/240V=0.3333A Therefore: 240V/0.3333=720 ohms



I just completed my capstone (Final electrical exams), and had the burning wish to never have to see Ohms law again.

y u do dis snowman?

But yes, going by that shorter cords would be much hotter, correct?


----------



## Snowman (Feb 20, 2014)

Djbowker said:


> I just completed my capstone (Final electrical exams), and had the burning wish to never have to see Ohms law again.
> 
> y u do dis snowman?
> 
> But yes, going by that shorter cords would be much hotter, correct?



It's not hotter, but I cant work out why the resistance is so high. It draws less current as you'd expect a smaller wattage cord to do. But generally longer the cable/wire the more resistance. The only explanation is there is some sort of resistor put into the smaller cables to stop them burning out.


----------



## Snowman (Feb 20, 2014)

Oh and you will use ohms law for the rest of your days.. It's probably the only thing sparkies actually use. You can forget power factor formulas and vector diagrams though haha.


----------



## Djbowker (Feb 20, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Oh and you will use ohms law for the rest of your days.. It's probably the only thing sparkies actually use. You can forget power factor formulas and vector diagrams though haha.



But not on a site I use to free my mind from work, haha
Vector what? 
I just assumed heat cords where a bunch of little resistors.


----------



## Snowman (Feb 20, 2014)

Djbowker said:


> But not on a site I use to free my mind from work, haha
> Vector what?
> I just assumed heat cords where a bunch of little resistors.


nah its mostly a flexible element. (which is a resistor to some degree). Yeah I've had to use it on site a fair bit. How about you [MENTION=34534]andynic07[/MENTION]


----------



## saximus (Feb 20, 2014)

Snowman said:


> nah its mostly a flexible element. (which is a resistor to some degree). Yeah I've had to use it on site a fair bit. How about you @andynic07



I think he meant this site. 
[MENTION=37753]Djbowker[/MENTION], I'm an electrical engineer and that stuff will haunt you forever


----------



## smeejason (Feb 20, 2014)

saximus said:


> I'm an electrical engineer



So are u saying u want us to use smaller words for you so you can keep up?


----------



## Djbowker (Feb 20, 2014)

saximus said:


> I think he meant this site.
> @Djbowker, I'm an electrical engineer and that stuff will haunt you forever




Yeah, I meant on this website haha.


You have no power here Saximus the engineer.


----------



## saximus (Feb 20, 2014)

smeejason said:


> So are u saying u want us to use smaller words for you so you can keep up?



Yes please. More than two syllables and I need dictionary.com


----------



## yellowbeard (Feb 20, 2014)

wokka said:


> Instead i use 13 watt heat mats running on a timer for say 12 hour a day. I haven't replaced any in 5 years.



I would love to see some pictures of one enclosure showing the heat mat setup, if you get a chance.


----------



## andynic07 (Feb 20, 2014)

Yes [MENTION=16366]Snowman[/MENTION] I use quite an array of formulas that I learnt as an apprentice in day to day work as I program and test high voltage protection systems in the field. You would need to either reduce the voltage or increase the resistance in a way that would not produce heat or the shorter heat cord would have more current flow causing the heat cord to get hotter than the longer one.


----------



## Gavatron (Feb 27, 2014)

I used heat cords routed into the timber floor of my enclosure with a floor tile placed on top. These are run to a single plug to a thermo. Low wattage and very cheap. They provide nice heat. I'm in brissy and these worked great last winter. They barely run over summer.


----------

