# Legalization of corns??



## 0_missy_0 (Aug 24, 2007)

Lately I've come to realise just how many people really are keeping herps illegally, both exotics and natives. First of all, a few months back, I had a guy come over to buy some fish, and I was talking about getting into the reptile scene, and at that moment he offered me a hatchling boa. Now if he hadn't just bought $700 worth of my fish I would have given him a boot in the @$$ right there and then.

Then about two months later a friend of mine was telling me about how he had been keeping snakes for the past year. When I asked what types, he told me diamond pythons, taipans, browns and adders. Turns out this guy DOES have a license, apparently he just couldn't be bothered to wait the extra few years to upgrade:xThis one REALLY pee'd me off 'cause I would LOVE a death adder, but I, as well as many people, have to wait patiently until I can upgrade in later years, while this guy is off keeping vens in his first year!

Another friend of mine, who owns a young stimmie, came over the other night to see my herps and asked to see my license 'cause he'd never seen one before. Well, this guy doesn't have a license. Are people really stingy enough not to be able to fork out the $60 every two years?

Yet another friend (of the family's) came over the other night to see my python 'cause he's getting one himself. The first thing that came to mind was that he was going to get something exotic, and I was right, he planned to get a corn snake. Again, I was really pee'd off at this because corn snakes are one of my all time favourite snakes, and the first snake I had ever held (at a zoo). He told me his friend is breeding them, and what amazed me most is that the friend found the adults in his own backyard:?Not too sure where he lives, but I know he's somewhere in suburban Sydney. It amazes me because I didn't know corns were adaptive and prolific enough to get to the stage where they are invading suburban areas...
It's sad to know that I have more friends keeping herps illegally than friends keeping them legally! Knowing so many people who keep illegally, it's hard not to report them, but because most are good friends I don't know what to do other than talk them out of it (which doesn't seem to work anyway):?

Onto the point, this family friend was explaining how corns will soon become legal because there are just so many of them already in the wild in Aus.
I believe that, if they do become legalized, that will be the reason. But there's still reasons NOT to legalize them, such as if one exotic becomes legal, it'll encourage people to bring in more exotics and work on making them become legal as well, because if it happened with corns, it can happen with others, which is what makes it hard for me to believe that corns will soon become legal to own.
So I want to hear other peoples' opinions/facts on this, 'cause, if I can help it, I want to try get this family friend to steer clear of exotics, because he's really a good guy and I'd hate for him to get the wrong information on something like this... Any insight appreciated.

Apologies for the massive story


----------



## Forensick (Aug 24, 2007)

i had someone ask me/my GF about ways to euthanise animals (my GF does vet sci)
as he had a friend with 2 very large boas that he thought the DSE had found out about


----------



## Tsubakai (Aug 24, 2007)

Change the context of your above story so that it reads 'cocaine' instead of 'exotic herps' and see if the decision is still difficult.  

If we didn't have laws then society would be quite different. One of the downsides is that if there is a law about something then people will break it regardless of the consequences.

Personally I am all for exotics staying illegal and will report anyone who keeps them.


----------



## 0_missy_0 (Aug 24, 2007)

Tsubakai said:


> Change the context of your above story so that it reads 'cocaine' instead of 'exotic herps' and see if the decision is still difficult.
> 
> If we didn't have laws then society would be quite different. One of the downsides is that if there is a law about something then people will break it regardless of the consequences.
> 
> Personally I am all for exotics staying illegal and will report anyone who keeps them.


 
Good point.

I'm also for keeping exotics illegal, it's hard to resist a corn but I can do itSo, what should I do about the friends that are keeping/want to keep exotics? Reporting them would be betrayal, they'd lose all trust in me, but I can't do NOTHING about it...:?
And talking to this guy that wants a corn will probably do nothing...


----------



## Renagade (Aug 24, 2007)

I too am pretty surprised at the offerings of corns and boas considering the small postion of people i know with reptiles. i think that the replile owning world would be an interesting place to question about ownership of exotics considering so much of the demographic is involved in someway with conservation.


----------



## Tsubakai (Aug 24, 2007)

Ultimately the decision about what to do is that which will sit best with your own conscience. I personally would report them but I understand how its difficult to do that at times. Sorry but I'm not much help.


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 24, 2007)

This field is an interesting one, and can be extraporlated to other topical subjects. 

I feel pretty passionate about the exotic issue simply because it is up my field of study. 


Firstly.... the herp "hobby/ industry" is starting to see a major influx of new people to the field. An issue though is the fact that the majority of people that are doing this are; 
A) interested for probably not the best reasons, or and most likely
B) dont have the respect and knowledge for the animal.

The first point, most people want a snake etc, due to WOW value, which is probably not the best reason. 
Secondly, so many people, (of which some questions on this site even point towards this) dont appear to have adequate knowledge for the animals they want or keep, let alone the wider ecological understanding that should be understood. 


In this thread, a couple of times it has been metioned that people dont want to "dob" their friends in for having an exotic species. But to me, a real friend would probably listen to the person and then understand that though you are a friend, it is your ecological duty as a person of Australia to ensure that the species of Australia are maintained. As mentioned, change the topic to Cocaine. Lets say your friend was dealing cocaine, would this make you say something. 

Now of course someone is reading this and going, "thats different" blah blah blah. 
No, it is very similar. The cost of trying to control Cane toads, is getting really out of hand. 
The cost of trying to contain rabbits is also out of hand. 
They have in the last few years found foxes in Tasmania, So now we are stareing at the possible extinction of the Devil, through fox and other reasons. 
Look at the costs associated with containment, erradication, general damage of hard hooved animals through out australia.
European Carp, trout etc etc, have caused major damage to our water ways. 
Even bloody starfish are causing problems. 


So yeah it is the same. Though you may not see the direct effect, the costs are huge. Money devoted to these aforementioned items comes from the budget, and the budget comes from our tax dollars. 


With regards to legalisation of exotics. I firmly believe that the penalties need to increase. I have been talking with Environment ACT and the RSPCA on these matters regarding legislation for severe penalties. 

Part of the issue is that the penalties handed down arent enough to deter people, and the other side is that the penalties just arent enough in other instances. 

The reason why people continue to get away with black market animals regardless whether they be natives on fake licences or exotics, is not enough people are doing anything about it. 

Simple fact of the matter is that the Australian Fauna have evolved to be the way they are due to the environment that they live in. Throwing another competitor into the mix, totally changes everything.

Lets just look at the Everglades. 

Personally i would have no problem in letting the right people know. I would give my friend a chance to have the animal put down, or taken to a Zoo etc. but then i would be telling the authorities to sort it out.

Allowing your friends to have them, just says that you approve of it. Actions always speak louder than words. 
Explain to them why it is wrong. it is the ecology of the country. 

I dont think that the law will ever change in Australia to allow exotics into private collections. It just wont happen, there are too many ecological impacts to consider. 

If anyone remembers the shop that was near cambletown a few years back. It got shut down for having exotics etc. The owner was Mani Buckly. I wonder if anyone knows this shop.


----------



## coxy (Aug 24, 2007)

Regarding the fines/punishment, They should increase the fines substantially this will in turn provide more money to enforce the law and any excess money should be put into conservation projects. 
Or anyone found with exotics must go collect 100,000 cane toads as punishment that will take a while.


----------



## Rennie (Aug 24, 2007)

I'd like to think that corns wouldn't become so common that they get legalized, but is the Asian House Gecko native to Australia? I've heard that they were an introduced species, now legal to keep.

Just a (slightly disturbing) thought.


----------



## Clairebear (Aug 24, 2007)

Why don't you pm their names to someone in Sydney on this site and ask if they can say something to the relevant NSW authority? I know it's still 'betraying' your friends, but if there's a chance fines etc are increasing, maybe it's better to sort them out now instead of waiting til they tell someone else who's not so forgiving? If you let someone else do it, then your names not associated and you can honestly say you've never heard of the person (well real name anyway!) I know it sounds sneaky but i believe your friends need to see exactly what they're dealing with. way bigger than what they obviously expect.


----------



## 0_missy_0 (Aug 24, 2007)

Rennie raises a good point, if AHGs became legal, is there not a possibility for corns to also become legal?

And thanks for your suggestions I think I'll do what Slothhead suggested, I'll tell them they have a chance to get rid of their animals otherwise I'll report them. At least this way I wouldn't be doing it behind their backs..


----------



## ace#74 (Aug 24, 2007)

the thing that makes aussie herps great is that you cant find them anywhere els in the world imo exotics should never become legal to keep in aust theres to much of a risk


----------



## Geklor (Aug 24, 2007)

I know its bad for the ecology of australia blah blah blah but dobbing in a friend is a bit drastic, personally i would never do it. 1 person owning an exotic snake is not going to harm anyone and i believe a friendship is much more valuable than a snake. And if it was cocaine i would be a very good friend to that person


----------



## Colin (Aug 24, 2007)

0_missy_0 said:


> Rennie raises a good point, if AHGs became legal, is there not a possibility for corns to also become legal?


An interesting point, but I don't think corn snakes will be legalised with that argument simply for the reason that Asian House Geckos are found and probably breeding in a 'wild situation' where as the majority of corn snakes are kept in illegal private captive collections. I know there are reports of wild corns etc here in Australia, how many and in what population density I'm unsure, but (imo) it would not be anywhere near the population of 'wild' asian house geckos.


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Aug 24, 2007)

Geklor said:


> I know its bad for the ecology of australia blah blah blah but dobbing in a friend is a bit drastic, personally i would never do it. 1 person owning an exotic snake is not going to harm anyone and i believe a friendship is much more valuable than a snake. _*And if it was cocaine i would be a very good friend to that person* _


 
That explains why you have the attitude towards illegal snakes like you do. If you read the post she mentions there is more then one person and if everybody who own herps took your approach then there would be thousands and thousands of friends keeping illegal herps.


----------



## ace#74 (Aug 24, 2007)

Geklor said:


> I 1 person owning an exotic snake is not going to harm anyone [/quote
> 
> yeah thats how it starts out 1 cant hurt


----------



## krusty (Aug 24, 2007)

i say make them legal that way i dont have to hide mine.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 24, 2007)

I cant believe people thinking about dobbing someone in for keeping reptiles illegally. If you wanna be a copper, join the police force. Otherwise, mind your own business.


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 24, 2007)

Krusty, your are ok cause you have corn woma hybrids.


That old statement, ONE PERSON OWNING AN EXOTIC IS NOT GOIN TO HARM ANYONE, spoke with the true naivety of someone that doenst actually respect what we have, let alone the long term prospects of the consequences. 

But yet the statement is so wrong. 

ONE person owning one is called DEMAND. As demand increases so does supply. 
When supply outstrips that demand, the prices simply drop until the demand creeps back in. So thouugh it may just start with one, it never stops at one. 

Sure freinds are important, but this doesnt mean that they have the right to encroach on 60 million years of evolution through selfish actions .


Oh, and BIG RYANO... that is really a stupid and moot comment. With that sort of thinking, all you are saying is that, if your house was on fire, or being broken into by someone, you would rather your neighbours to stand around and just go, "O well, better mind my own business, i wont call the right people, its none of my business" 
Stop flexing your ignorance


----------



## Mystery (Aug 24, 2007)

Honestly, if they are silly enough to go around blurting it out to whoever they feel like - fool them, they deserve to get caught. If they have told you they have probably told others also. I'm sure if I had one, I wouldn't be announcing it.


----------



## mysnakesau (Aug 24, 2007)

0_missy_0 said:


> ....Onto the point, this family friend was explaining how corns will soon become legal because there are just so many of them already in the wild in Aus.......



This is the reason they are illegal. Because our wildlife authorities are about protecting our native fauna. Then the introduced species come along and wipe out all the food & our beautiful natives become endangered and even extinct.

the exotics are beautiful, I'll agree, but don't we have enough beauty of our own without introducing pests to take over.


----------



## FAY (Aug 24, 2007)

There are a lot more exotics out there that you could ever imagine.....
We meet people all the time that tell us that they have them.
We just say 'why do you want to go down that track.?..tell them about the fines, goal sentences..the loss of all your legal animals etc'

The saddest part is the animals that are in the middle of all this...

I still feel that it is non of my business and would not dob anyone in...needless to say ...the ones that I know of I don't know their full name or where they live anyway... ..


----------



## Tsubakai (Aug 24, 2007)

Geklor said:


> I know its bad for the ecology of australia blah blah blah but dobbing in a friend is a bit drastic, personally i would never do it. 1 person owning an exotic snake is not going to harm anyone and i believe a friendship is much more valuable than a snake. And if it was cocaine i would be a very good friend to that person



The point of the drug illustration was to get people to see it in a different light. If you find drug use amusing or something you enjoy then change it to something else. 

The whole concept of mateship being sacrosanct is rubbish touted by people who want a convenient excuse to not do something they might find difficult. "I know my mate shoplifts but I can't dob him in - he's my friend :cry:"


----------



## junglepython2 (Aug 24, 2007)

There is not a chance corns will be legalised, they can't even make asper or leaftails legal in vic.


----------



## MrSpike (Aug 24, 2007)

Seriously who cares if someone keeps exotics? If they are stupid enough to get caught with them then they deserve what they get, otherwise it is their choice. Something will have to be done about exotics sooner or later, more people have them than anyone could estimate. 

There are other things I would prefer before a corn, but I would still get one if I had the chance.

Kane


----------



## Radar (Aug 24, 2007)

Not having read all the previous posts (cause i dont have time, will do it later FOR SURE)....just like to add that I know at least one bloke in NSW with boa's.....he found 2 live young in an area of bushalnd near his house...makes you wonder if people are releasing gravid adults or what?


----------



## PremierPythons (Aug 24, 2007)

Corns & any exotics for that matter in terms of reptiles, will never be legalized in this lifetime...


----------



## cockney red (Aug 24, 2007)

*Why cant aussies realise what a fantastic biodiversity of herps we have here, that are the envy of the world, and be satisfied with them. Instead of whinging on the grass is always greener syndrom. exotics are ilegal for a reason. Get over it!!!!!!*


----------



## Recharge (Aug 24, 2007)

I would have no problem (and would willingly) dob in ANYONE at all who had exotics or I knew didn't have a licence.

so beware, if I know you have them, you will be handed over quick smart.


----------



## paulw6676 (Aug 24, 2007)

i think exotics are great animals and why not let them be legall. Is there any harm in having exotics animals?


----------



## Recharge (Aug 24, 2007)

only if you don't care about the possibility of a large proportion of out native animal becoming extinct...
and introduction of more diseases, and other issues... 

just look at the rabbit, cane toad, cat and fox problem to get an idea...


----------



## krusty (Aug 24, 2007)

SlothHead said:


> Krusty, your are ok cause you have corn woma hybrids.




how do you know that as i havent told you i have only told every one else..........lol.


----------



## zulu (Aug 24, 2007)

*re Legalization*

They are not exotic,corns and boas etc,they are non native species,an exotic realistically to where i live in sydney things that come from other parts of australia that threaten the local gene pool like diamond x coastal etc.If i find that corns snakes are actually breeding in the wild as the NPWS say they are in the Hawkesbury,hell ile go and catch some,more likely just escapees.If people kept just albino mutations theyd have bucklys of getting established in the wild,if its true that they are in the wild in the hawkesbury area some clown may have introduced okeetees or some other non albino type possibly?


----------



## $NaKe PiMp (Aug 24, 2007)

we dont need exotics legalized ,we have the best NATIVE snakes in the world!!!!!
we have over 50% of the worlds python species,
our elapids are the most awsome creatures going
why would we want anything else and endanger the existance of our native species??
euthanase the cornsnakes people only like them cause there pretty
i think there gay


----------



## Dan19 (Aug 24, 2007)

I no somone that found in the wild in melbourne on a golf course a Iguana or some type of exotic lizard


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 24, 2007)

SlothHead, your proving you dont have much between the ears by comparing someones house being on fire, or a house being broken into, with someone keeping a few snakes off licence. Really pathetic comparison. Exotics have been here for decades and are here to stay whether we like it or not. All the whinging in the world not's gonna change a thing. And for the record, i wish there were no exotics here, but the horse has bolted.


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Aug 24, 2007)

paulw6676 said:


> i think exotics are great animals and why not let them be legall. Is there any harm in having exotics animals?


 
Have you not read all the points raised?


----------



## dunno103 (Aug 24, 2007)

I am replying to this post on principle.

All exotics should be only kept under the strictest conditions. This should be much more strict than the NSW venomous conditions, monthly reporting minimum.

I read an article in the early 1980's about a guy who caught snakes around the zoo, thse were not native to Sydney and he was alowed to keep the natives. I sincerely hope the zoo has improved their keeping skills. Birds were commonly escaping because of the salt in the air corroding the wire.

This country is known as the land of parrots 100+ species, monitors 25+ species (out of 30) and many species of marsupial (or monotreme) which all are threatened by people's pets or introductions, which I should not have to mention again.

I say if you want to keep exotics, then go and live in another country where you can, the USA is a good English speaking place.

I would not object to long gaol terms for people endangering our wildlife and this includes keeping exotics, this would be a good deterent to protect our animals. I also would be happy to pay (through taxes) huge rewards $200,000+ for reporting of infringements that are prosecuted.

Note, I also include dog and cat owners in a problem that endangers our wildlife and woul like to see long gaol terms for any endangerment to our wildlife.

You people who want exotics just because it looks good must not have seen a rainbow lorikeet or a frill-necked lizard. If you move to where you can keep them, then what you have left (natives) will cost you a lot more because they are better looking and more diverse animals.

I hope they never legalise exotics beacuse of the: cane toad, starling, noisy miner etc, etc. Wake up and see why USA has so many of our species there at great risk to their smugglers.


----------



## paulw6676 (Aug 24, 2007)

how can you compare a boa to a cane toad?


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Aug 24, 2007)

Everyone thought cane toads were a perfect solution to their problems when they were first introduced. Now look what has happened.

My uncle in QLD use to have a small creek and pond on his property. On two occassions i visited he had caught a green tree frog or two to show me and my family the colours. They were well looked after in a 4ft terranium for a week then released. About 2 years after the last time he showed us them there were none left on the property. There were however hundreds of cane toads.

Does that not put into perspective the damage exotics could do? They will never be legalized because there are idiots out there who have no idea the damage they can and will cause. You can compare boas and cane toads because they are both exotic and both impose a threat to our native wildlife.


----------



## Midol (Aug 24, 2007)

I'd happily dob in anyone keeping exotics.

dunno, agree'd. Dogs and Cats are a huge problem due to irresponsible keepers.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 24, 2007)

The problem for all you dobbers out there is that it really doesnt achieve anything. The courts dont take the issue seriously. The offender gets a slap on the wrist and a small fine and they go home and buy some more.


----------



## ace#74 (Aug 24, 2007)

there was an article in reptiles Australia about keeping exotic vens who in there right mind would risk getting bit by one of them hospitles would not have ant venem


----------



## Reptile City (Aug 24, 2007)

I would love some exotics.
I live in Australia so I cant have them.
I can deal with that!
We have so many amazing natives to keep.
Im one that also wishes Cats & Dogs had more responcible keepers.
We need to get tougher on exotics being keep illegaly.

Jason


----------



## ace#74 (Aug 24, 2007)

*exotics*



ReptileCity said:


> We need to get tougher on exotics being keep illegaly.
> 
> Jason


dam right we cant just say there here we cant do any thing about it


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 24, 2007)

I honestly dont think it would matter how serious the authorities got, some people would still keep and breed them. There's also some people keeping exotics who dont even realise their illegal!!


----------



## GrumpyTheSnake (Aug 24, 2007)

Krusty!!!!!!! You got a pic of this corn x woma???? I want to see that. If it's legal..... I want a hatchling... PLEASE


----------



## paulw6676 (Aug 24, 2007)

But mcloughlin2 we dont want exotics to solve problems we want them as pets to keep in our house, not to let them free in the wild.


----------



## junglepython2 (Aug 24, 2007)

paulw6676 said:


> But mcloughlin2 we dont want exotics to solve problems we want them as pets to keep in our house, not to let them free in the wild.


 
Tell that to all the corn keepers who have either released them or let them escape.


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Aug 24, 2007)

Spot on Junglepython.


----------



## dentech (Aug 24, 2007)

if people are really aginst it they should just report them, slothhead you can not just distry an animal because its an exotic, thats just cruel, and i cant belive that came out of the fingers of a herp lover, if you want im happy to take all names and addresses and report on your behalf, and keep all names where information came from out of it, but distroying these imports is not the answer. reshipping to place of origin is and establishing a relese programme, is a far more reasonable option.


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 24, 2007)

BIG RYANO -- do you breath through your mouth all the time... you say that making a comparison of someone breaking into someones home and someone keeping corn snakes etc is a pathetic comparison. But maybe it just needs to be spelt out for you. 

By you not doing anything about ILLEGAL snakes etc, because it is none of your business is precisely the same as you not doing anything about OTHER ILLEGAL activities, how you go with that.. 

I agree with you though. Yes, there have been exotics in Australia for a while. And certainly, the penalties need to get tougher on these things. The only way that penalties really become tougher is if the correct authorities have a better understanding of the ILLEGAL animals kept. Without people saying anything, then there is not this understanding. But again you flex your ignorance by saying that it wouldnt make any difference. 

Simple economics dictates, that if the punishment for the crime is increased then the marginal benefit/ marginal cost ratio is skewed making it less worthwhile. Granted you would never get rid of all of them, but lets say the fine was $10000 if you were caught with an exotic animal, and this was enforced. Then knowing this, exotic keepers would probably not be hanging on to them. 

I am not saying you catch wind of something and go running to the closest authorities, i am saying however, that the person with the animal be told of the remifications, and be given the chance to do the RIGHT AND LEGAL thing. 

Obviously you are one of those believers that animals were placed here for our amusement. Maybe we should all take arms back up again. 

There are many people out there that would like exotics, because the grass is greener, and just to have. But the simple fact of the matter is, these things will be released into the wild. 

How about we just go back to the simple example, THE EVERGLADES.


----------



## grimbeny (Aug 24, 2007)

dentech said:


> if people are really aginst it they should just report them, slothhead you can not just distry an animal because its an exotic, thats just cruel, and i cant belive that came out of the fingers of a herp lover, if you want im happy to take all names and addresses and report on your behalf, and keep all names where information came from out of it, but distroying these imports is not the answer. reshipping to place of origin is and establishing a relese programme, is a far more reasonable option.



These reptiles are worth very little money overseas esp. species like corns. Shipping them OS and selling them would never be feasable. I dont think albinos would go very well in the wild, not to mention how they could affect the native population. Not to mention distributing species of unknown location into a random environment could affect the local population.


----------



## dentech (Aug 24, 2007)

so take the answer distroy them, there has to be a fairer way, and beside albino in the europian market would be fine, yes not a lot of money, but in places like the uk, a few speices you dont need permits, and im fairly sure corns fall into group, cost of exporting os, against market price would most likely break even, if not make a small profit which could then be ut back into looking after and protecting our natives.


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 24, 2007)

> slothhead you can not just distry an animal because its an exotic, thats just cruel, and i cant belive that came out of the fingers of a herp



I think you were trying to say destroy... i am not saying that because it is exotic then it needs to be destroyed. It should be taken to a facility to handle this sort of thing. ie zoo, etc. 

With regards to shipping them back, yeah, that is worth while, and make the person that owned it cover all the costs. 

How do you think that OPMV arrived?????????????


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 24, 2007)

My dear SlothHead, IMO the only acceptable reasons for giving someone up are : Abusing kids or women, terrorism, bashing old people, selling hard drugs to kids,breaking into a neighbors house or murder without a real good reason. Well, there the only ones i can think of at this moment. Keeping snakes of any kind illegally does not compare to any of these. Besides, i'd have to dob in half of the herp industry in this country, and some of them are "big names". Your fighting a war you cant win. As i said, i dont agree with exotics. As for the not dobbing. it's just the way i was brought up.


----------



## dentech (Aug 24, 2007)

i agree opmv is here because of this trade, and the owners/ importers should cover costing of shipping to wherever, i think a lot of the problem is education of the general public.


----------



## junglepython2 (Aug 24, 2007)

dentech said:


> so take the answer distroy them, there has to be a fairer way, and beside albino in the europian market would be fine, yes not a lot of money, but in places like the uk, a few speices you dont need permits, and im fairly sure corns fall into group, cost of exporting os, against market price would most likely break even, if not make a small profit which could then be ut back into looking after and protecting our natives.


 

Corns cost as little as $15 overseas, exporting them and going through all the quarantine is simply not feasible, unless a zoo needs them, euthanizing them is the only way.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 24, 2007)

dentech said:


> i agree opmv is here because of this trade


The majority of people who should know agree that OPMV was here from the start. Certainly some different strains have probably been imported here over the years, but OPMV has always been here in one form or another. It's not a new thing.


----------



## -Peter (Aug 24, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> The majority of people who should know agree that OPMV was here from the start. Certainly some different strains have probably been imported here over the years, but OPMV has always been here in one form or another. It's not a new thing.


 
That just pure speculation. Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. It has not been found in wild populations. Its certainly here now though.


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 24, 2007)

Ryano, i notice that you say "Murder without reason", thus you are saying that it is ok to murder so long as you have a reason????.... Dont know where you were brought up if thats the case. 

Maybe you would prefer to live in anarchy... 

Throwing the ol hands up in the air and saying, No its too big i cant do anything about it, is not going to remedy the situation either. You sound like someone who has lost faith in goverment, someone that did not receive justice through the law. 

If the "big names" of the australian herp industry are keeping these species, then why should they be exempt from pool. 

I understand what you are saying with regards to "not the way you were brought up". But by not doing anything, though you say that you are against exotics, is showing you are for them via proxy. 

Yes it is a damn hard place to be. And certainly one person isnt going to make much of a difference. However, education of the remifications, and people being aware and being prepared to take action will certainly make it less viable to bring these species in, or for that matter, our native species out. 

Ryano, i am probably not that dissimilar from you in terms of keeping to yourself and out of anyone elses business. But it does become my business when other peoples actions have negative externalities upon me, either directly or indirectly. 

I certainly dont want my private collection wiped out through some new exotic desease. 
I certainly dont want to hear the latest report saying that Aspidites ramsayi is now classified as extinct 
I certainly dont want to go for a walk with the dog or whatever to turn around and see a 20ft anaconda chewing down. (It would be cool in some ways)

I think that by not doing anything, you are just supporting that it is happening. And the consequences of this happening is just too great. We have stuffed enough with problematic species in the past


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 24, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> The majority of people who should know agree that OPMV was here from the start. Certainly some different strains have probably been imported here over the years, but OPMV has always been here in one form or another. It's not a new thing.



Yeah this is a bit of a tall one, who are the "PEOPLE THAT SHOULD KNOW"
I personally have never read a journal article suggesting that this is the case. 

Current literature still firmly states that IBD and OPMV are both exotic viruses. 
it is very hard for OPMV to be here from the start... Like when 60 million years ago
20 million year when 

Australia has been alone for a long time, therefore any natural occuring OPMV would have been erased over this period. Otherwise we wouldnt have the current populations. They would be all gone .


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 24, 2007)

I do agree with most of your comments SlothHead, except about OPMV. It's been good sparring with you, but i'm getting tired. Regards


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 24, 2007)

yeah i think Final destination 3 is on pay tv in a sec 
so might have to go and watch that


----------



## SnowAngel (Aug 24, 2007)

SlothHead... Have you stopped to think that being a supplier of reptile accessories, that you yourself are helping these people keep exotics alive in this country and you dont even know it. Just something for you to think about...
I dont agree with exotics but i also dont believe in dobbing in your friends, but hey thats just my opinion


----------



## mcloughlin2 (Aug 24, 2007)

Snowangel,

If he didn't supply those accessories how would we keep natives as pets?


----------



## Southside Morelia (Aug 24, 2007)

SlothHead said:


> This field is an interesting one, and can be extraporlated to other topical subjects.
> 
> I feel pretty passionate about the exotic issue simply because it is up my field of study.
> 
> ...


 
Whatever Eienstein..... What credentials do you have to back up your statements?
You obviously are not connected with the wider herp community and in in touch with what is actually going on! Yes, there needs to be constraints, but there also has to be some management from the Authorities, whether it to your liking or not! Dobbing in your friend is a joke and your a [deleted] for even of thinking it, don't undercut the genuine sponsor /seller from trying tom earn a buck on this site....
My opinion only!!!!!!


----------



## bouncn (Aug 24, 2007)

PiMp said:


> euthanase the cornsnakes people only like them cause there pretty
> i think there gay




you're right.

they are so gay.

and they're named after a vegetable


----------



## GrumpyTheSnake (Aug 24, 2007)

lol @ Knob head Scott......LOLOLOLOL

And to you Mclouglin2..... I don't think snow angel was saying that he shouldn't supply these items, . I think she was just trying to say that these people are all around us... most of us have had dealings with them and don't even know it.!! You just never know who is keeping what.


----------



## SnowAngel (Aug 24, 2007)

mcloughlin... I understand that but what i'm saying is he is so against exotics but i would bet on it that more than half the people he sells are buying equipment to house and care for exotics...


----------



## FAY (Aug 24, 2007)

paulw6676 said:


> how can you compare a boa to a cane toad?




Paul, have you read anything about the Burmese python and the effects it is having in the Florida Everglades.??


----------



## Southside Morelia (Aug 24, 2007)

This subject has be done to death..... BORING.
We are certainly a more educated mob that can have better conversations about constructive issues we all face day to day with dealing with the welfare of our pets/income to be debating about regurgitated crap that we often get infractions about.
This is a site for knowledge for the majority not for petty arguments for ill informed keyboard machos.....


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 25, 2007)

SCM1, thanks for the complement, but Einstein was a physicist champ, not an ecologist. Mate if you dont want to read the thread thats cool, but coming on slagging other people because they have their say, get over your self. You actually havent provided anything constructive but thats cool too.

Credentials... well i dont have to prove anything to anyone, see it doesnt take a genius to read a couple of journals to find the information that i stated, so you so where is my back up, well my back up is pretty much any journal based on fox and quoll population statistics, cane toad damage, Everglades hmmmm, so who is the one out of touch

Then the ol good one, 


> undercut the genuine sponsor /seller from trying tom earn a buck on this site....



Genuine sponsor, didnt know there was a category. 
I figured we just paid our fees to the site and that was it. 

not that i really can see what that is supposed to mean but hey, i am no Einstein.
Your right though, i have no idea about the Herp community


----------



## SlothHead (Aug 25, 2007)

Snowangel, 

I understand what you are saying, but should the majority suffer for the actions of a few. 

We also donate a percentage of profits to the RSPA in order to combat or loby against many of these activities.


----------



## prealongus (Aug 25, 2007)

I dont think dobbing in friends will do anything but lose good friends. If people understand the punishments involved (jail very unlikely) then its up to them, sooner or later these things have a habit of coming under the authorities attention. I wouldnt keep non natives, they dont appeal to me but I accept that they appeal to others in the same way as why people only keep pythons or vens. We as reptile keepers, are also an ecological problem. How extreme do want to go? We let purposely or not doesnt matter, species go where they are not suppose to be ie pythons fround in melb etc etc. If people are so truly passionate about ecological issues only keep species that occur in your own area. I liken the desire of keepers to exotics to that of keepers wanting animals that dont occur locally. Like it or not we all are a threat to our local ecological. If we increase penlties in all likely more people are going to dump exotics not destory them. 
It would be ironic if revenue raised through penlties went to organisations like RSPCA who in turn used it to pressure gov to totaly ban keeping of reptiles.


----------



## mysnakesau (Aug 25, 2007)

mcloughlin2 said:


> With all due respect paul. Your a fool. Go do some research on the matter. Everyone thought cane toads were a perfect solution to their problems when they were first introduced. Now look what has happened......



My point exactly


----------



## Radar (Aug 25, 2007)

Couple of points:
[Comment deleted]
-Slothhead knows what he is talking about on this one (saves me re-iterating his points for the illiterate)
-Is it Hawaii the the tree snakes are totally decimating? can't remember which island. Add that to the florida everglades 
-The few people who choose to keep exotics are endangering the what EVERY OTHER Australian holds so dear.....and as such it is EVER OTHER AUSTRALIANS DUTY to do what we can to stop them being so reckless. If this means 'dobbing' on friends, sit down and have a seroius think about your age. Are you still 7 years old or what? (no offence if you are, lol)

If you are gonna break the law on an issue like this, the legal implications ARE THE LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES, especially when I find out who you are. And I bet that goes for a few others around here.


----------



## cris (Aug 25, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> My dear SlothHead, IMO the only acceptable reasons for giving someone up are : Abusing kids or women, terrorism, bashing old people, selling hard drugs to kids,breaking into a neighbors house or murder without a real good reason.



With the exception of terrorism all of those things are virtually insignificant to virtually everyone, (although obviously very unpleasnt for the victims). Keeping and especially breeding and importing potential invasive exotic species put the entire ecosystem at risk and that effects alot of ppl. That to me is much worse (not to all those things arnt really bad).


----------



## JJS. (Aug 25, 2007)

The idea of corns already being prolific in the australian wild is more reason not to legalise as it will only add to the destruction of our native animals. You want exotics, you may do the right thing, but others won't. It's best for them to be illegal. I'm sure people do drugs, etc but are relatively safe, etc. Does that mean they should be legalised? It will only blow the problem out of proportion in both instances.


----------



## Tatelina (Aug 25, 2007)

0_missy_0 said:


> Good point.
> I'm also for keeping exotics illegal, it's hard to resist a corn but I can do itSo, what should I do about the friends that are keeping/want to keep exotics? Reporting them would be betrayal, they'd lose all trust in me, but I can't do NOTHING about it...:?
> And talking to this guy that wants a corn will probably do nothing...


Heh..give me their names and I'll report them.


----------



## Midol (Aug 25, 2007)

You really shouldn't donate to the RSPCA. Worthless organisation who wastes tens of thousands of dollars on useless campaigns. That's just my opinion though. You're donations are just funding the RSPCAs BSL push which bans large dogs.

Anyway, exotics are bad, mmmkay?


----------



## Radar (Aug 25, 2007)

Midol: agreed
I know at least 2 RSPCA workers responsible for introducing cats into feral proof enclosures designed for the rehabilitation of native animals (bilbies, etc). I know its not representive, but sort of put me off giving them my money


----------



## cement (Aug 25, 2007)

rednut said:


> Midol: agreed
> I know at least 2 RSPCA workers responsible for introducing cats into feral proof enclosures designed for the rehabilitation of native animals (bilbies, etc). I know its not representive, but sort of put me off giving them my money


 
WHAT!!!! :evil: I hope you buried them, Red.

I am feral hater NO 1, I don't want cane toads for pets. Cats, well most of you know my feeling here. Same with pigs, goats, rabbits, foxes. THIS PLACE IS NOT ENGLAND.

Whats the problem with killing exotic snakes, you kill rats and mice to feed your snakes. I even feed live crickets to my dragon. Everyone thinks its funny whatching that.

Sometimes you end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.Ferals beware.

You people who don't have the balls to look after this land aren't worth two bob.

Kill all the ferals and exotics and feed the natives with them I say :lol:


----------



## Radar (Aug 25, 2007)

cement said:


> WHAT!!!! :evil: I hope you buried them, Red.
> 
> I am feral hater NO 1, I don't want cane toads for pets. Cats, well most of you know my feeling here. Same with pigs, goats, rabbits, foxes. THIS PLACE IS NOT ENGLAND.
> 
> ...


 
Not quite....but they got the message.....needless to say the cats were tracked down and shot pretty fast. 

You and me are probably rivals for that No. 1 position . Going piggin' tonight, truth be told. 
Im all for animal rights and 100% commited to ensureing animals (even ferals) do not suffer at the hands of idiots, but Im also 100% commited to the protection of Australian fauna (and flora) and spend just about all of my spare time hunting one introduced species or another. 

Speaking of burying people, got any idea who is responsible for foxes in Tassie?


----------



## Midol (Aug 25, 2007)

Ditto, I support the removal of _feral_ (I detest people who see a cat/dog WITH a collar and shoot it even though capturing it would be just as simple) animals if done humanely. 

Exotic snakes are considered feral to me.


----------



## Radar (Aug 25, 2007)

Yeah, got to put peoples pets first, even though some people clearly dont even do that for their own animals.

As far as I can tell there is NO reason good enough to allow the legalisation of exotic snakes. We've already done it with other animals like dogs/cats/rabbits/ferrets/etc, and created endless problems. Time to learn from past mistakes, me thinks.....


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 25, 2007)

prealongus said:


> How extreme do want to go? We let purposely or not doesnt matter, species go where they are not suppose to be ie pythons fround in melb etc etc. If people are so truly passionate about ecological issues only keep species that occur in your own area. I liken the desire of keepers to exotics to that of keepers wanting animals that dont occur locally. Like it or not we all are a threat to our local ecological. If we increase penlties in all likely more people are going to dump exotics not destory them.
> It would be ironic if revenue raised through penlties went to organisations like RSPCA who in turn used it to pressure gov to totaly ban keeping of reptiles.


 There are some great points there Prealongus that many of us have never considered. For example, coastal carpets kept in Sydney are probably a bigger threat to the indigenous wildlife than corns are, due to interbreeding with diamonds. Some great points. If people are so passionate about these ecological issues, then perhaps they should practise what they preach and only keep species that are local to their area.


----------



## Midol (Aug 25, 2007)

Rednut, definitely. Bringing in dogs and cats was a huge mistake. They are here now and the population (including me - dogs) are highly attatched to them. Legalising exotics would be a huge mistake.

Hey Ryano, care to offer some proof or just the basis as to why carpets in sydney are a threat to native wildlife? How does interbreeding with diamonds cause ecological problems?


----------



## prealongus (Aug 26, 2007)

Midol, legalising exotics may way in time prove to be a mistake, but it would allow the gov to estimate population size and distributation of exotics to some degree. Escapees are more likely to be reported and problem areas more likely to be identified. A risk assessment can be done. At the moment the gov has no idea where/ or when a feral population is likely to be established (edited section: At the moment the gov usually only identifies a problem after the exotic has already established itself, and more resources have to be involved. If the gov knew where species were located they could be more specific in their control areas and measures, and exotic keepers in that area foot the bill). Im not in favour of exotics but even I know some control is better than none. I also have to highlight the point more likely as one can never be 100%. 

As for your proof or just the basis as to why carpets in sydney are a threat to native wildlife? They most certainly are! The threat comes in the terms of genetic polluation. Everyone knows the the different geographic races of carpets can interbreed and in captivity this really isnt a problem from an ecological point of view (as captives "supposely" are isolated from wild specimens). The problem happens when your carpet (from a non local population) escapes from captivity and is exposed to the wild population. We dont need crosses in the wild. If you think oh this rarely happens you are dead wrong just ask snake removalists how many non local snakes they pick up. Last year in sydney I know of at least 20 coastal carpets collected from sydney as a result of escapees. Ask the department how many reptiles were registered as escapees, you will be surprised and shocked at the numbers. Maybe these figures itself prove we cant be trusted with exotics, but if you are going to agrue are along the lines of ecological issues then you shouldnt be half hearted about it and draw an imaginary line at the border of australia. You can cross all you want in captivity but wild population in my opinion should remain genetically prue.


----------



## mrs_davo (Aug 26, 2007)

Why do people think that it is OK to BREAK THE LAW.
The LAWS are there for everybody to follow.... why do some people feel that they are the exception to the rule.
I am sorry but the LAW BREAKERS SHOULD be dobbed in regardless......
What gives these people the right to think that they are any better than the rest of us and that they are ABOVE the LAW......


----------



## cris (Aug 26, 2007)

So explain the ecological impact of hybrid carpets in sydney? 

Im not saying its good, but its nothing like allowing completely differant types of animals to establish populations. In some cases some natives in the wrong could be worse than some exotics but IMO it generally the other way around(a good example is banded grunters in the brisbane river, water dragons in melbourne etc.) compare these to the cats, foxes, pigs, goats, carp etc. and its just like a drop in the ocean.


----------



## slip_phreak (Aug 26, 2007)

I think everyone needs to realise that buying/importing exotics funds terrorist activities all over the world like 9/11. There are links involved in breeding boa's, corn snakes and cham's in australia are clearly identifiable as source of funding for the bombings in london and bali. Okay i'll stop being a retard now..

Okay on a more serious note im still undecided on the whole exotics thing becasue there are points for and against, but some of which sort of cancel themselves out. For example, keeping exotics illegal means that when the sellers cant offload all their hatchies, they will get released into the wild which puts our balanced ecosystems under threat ( i have visions of SnakeRanch releasing hundreds of Rough Scaled Pythons into the carpark because they are expensive and people like me arent buying them becasue im so poor). On the other hand if exotics were not illegal to keep and were put on lic. sellers would be more inclined to hang onto the hatchies and sell them later on rather than dumping them, so in turn it wouldn't be a direct risk to the ecosystem (well apart from escapee's n stuff). OPMV is already here and its not an exotics only disease (yes it was brought here by importing exotics illegally but its here now so no good trying to solve the problem in hind sight), as your hatchie diamond you just bought could have it. Hypothetically it escapes from your gosford home, does it pose less of a threat to the local communities of diamonds living in the area because its a native to the area? Would the effect of the virus on natives be the same as having your corn or boa escape with OPMV into the wild and mix with the snakes there?
But im rambling so dont mind me. Personally i wouldnt mind keeping a Cham or maybe even a corn if they were legal but is it worth the risks to our wildlife keeping them illegaly? Personally i dont think so but i wouldnt be prepared to run off telling the fuzz my best friend bought himself a hatchy albino corn snake.


----------



## Radar (Aug 26, 2007)

Prealongus, I agree with you 50:50
I do believe that genetic mixing between previously isolated and genetically differentiated populations can become a problem, and as hard as it may be to believe, have never kept a species that did not naturally occure in the region I lived in (not through choice, mind you, it just happened that way). Ive done advanced conservation genetics courses and understand the problems (although it is more of a problem for actual species conservation rather than ecosystem functioning, as hybrids between races will continue to have basically the same ecological niches and roles)

However, I don't think legalisation of corns (drugs are bad, mmmmkay?) is the way to gain greater control. People who have them will smell a rat and simply not register them. Take a look at the firearm situation. I know of many people who never registered their guns, handed them in, or sold them on when required to do so by the laws brought in after 1996. why? simply cause they knew they were backing themselves into a corner by letting the government know what they were doing (not because they are gun-runners intent on making a fast buck and destroying society as we know it). And on that note, they were right, because now firearms are so heavily regulated its not funny (not saying this is a bad thing, thats a whole other debate). 

I know what you mean about the govt only identifying a problem when it is basically too late, but that is the reason we need to be keeping note of what is going on around us...and one of the reasons sites like this are so good. It comes down to everyone who in interested and knows enough to report anything unusual, etc (corn snakes in the local park, etc), otherwise the govt. will never notice anything.


----------



## Radar (Aug 26, 2007)

slip_phreak said:


> I think everyone needs to realise that buying/importing exotics funds terrorist activities all over the world like 9/11. There are links involved in breeding boa's, corn snakes and cham's in australia are clearly identifiable as source of funding for the bombings in london and bali.


 
???? I NEVER KNEW!!!! SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!!!!! Its so simple, of course...


----------



## Recharge (Aug 26, 2007)

> On the other hand if exotics were not illegal to keep and were put on lic. sellers would be more inclined to hang onto the hatchies and sell them later on rather than dumping them, so in turn it wouldn't be a direct risk to the ecosystem


If selfish so and so's didn't keep them against the law, there wouldn't be a problem at all. legalising exotics isn't going to help anything at all, it'll only make MORE problems.
its people KNOWING of others with exotics not dobbing them in that IS the problem.


----------



## GSXR_Boy (Aug 26, 2007)

.....


----------



## zulu (Aug 26, 2007)

*re Legalization*



prealongus said:


> Midol, legalising exotics may way in time prove to be a mistake, but it would allow the gov to estimate population size and distributation of exotics to some degree. Escapees are more likely to be reported and problem areas more likely to be identified. A risk assessment can be done. At the moment the gov has no idea where/ or when a feral population is likely to be established (edited section: At the moment the gov usually only identifies a problem after the exotic has already established itself, and more resources have to be involved. If the gov knew where species were located they could be more specific in their control areas and measures, and exotic keepers in that area foot the bill). Im not in favour of exotics but even I know some control is better than none. I also have to highlight the point more likely as one can never be 100%.
> As for your proof or just the basis as to why carpets in sydney are a threat to native wildlife? They most certainly are! The threat comes in the terms of genetic polluation. Everyone knows the the different geographic races of carpets can interbreed and in captivity this really isnt a problem from an ecological point of view (as captives "supposely" are isolated from wild specimens). The problem happens when your carpet (from a non local population) escapes from captivity and is exposed to the wild population. We dont need crosses in the wild. If you think oh this rarely happens you are dead wrong just ask snake removalists how many non local snakes they pick up. Last year in sydney I know of at least 20 coastal carpets collected from sydney as a result of escapees. Ask the department how many reptiles were registered as escapees, you will be surprised and shocked at the numbers. Maybe these figures itself prove we cant be trusted with exotics, but if you are going to agrue are along the lines of ecological issues then you shouldnt be half hearted about it and draw an imaginary line at the border of australia. You can cross all you want in captivity but wild population in my opinion should remain genetically prue.


 Yes praelongus the wild populations of various animals should remain genetically unaltered if possible,what happens in the pet industry should stay there.


----------



## prealongus (Aug 26, 2007)

rednut said:


> Prealongus, I agree with you 50:50
> I do believe that genetic mixing between previously isolated and genetically differentiated populations can become a problem, and as hard as it may be to believe, have never kept a species that did not naturally occure in the region I lived in (not through choice, mind you, it just happened that way). Ive done advanced conservation genetics courses and understand the problems (although it is more of a problem for actual species conservation rather than ecosystem functioning, as hybrids between races will continue to have basically the same ecological niches and roles).




Rednut you are very right the same ecological niches and roles will be the same and in terms of ecosystem functioning. I was more refering to actual species conservation ( probably better termed genetic conservation).

As for exotics we are damned either way (legalised or total ban) people will always be prepared to go outside of the law to meet their interest. At the moment too many are prepared to do this and numbers of exotics will only increase despite more penlties, education, etc etc. Its a no win situation.


----------



## crush the turtle (Aug 29, 2007)

i no a girl who works at a pet shop and doesnt have a lic but she has over 13 snakes, one of whitch is a red tailed boa!!, she also has 3 water dragons and a few blueys, and some birds that nedd lic


----------



## noidea (Aug 29, 2007)

ok so without reading all of the posts i'm gonna add my 2 bob's worth. I look at it this way we all whinge and moan about hybrids, intergrades natural or not. 
people are never satisfied with what they have in their own backyard( i personally have no desire to travel overseas when i haven't seen my own country). i look at all these woma x carpet etc and honestly i feel sorry for the poor buggers they just don't look right. 
i'm glad it is illegal for us to purposely cross breed snakes and as for dobbing in mates, they are'nt mates if they expect you to keep secrets that can get u into heaps of trouble. 
i hope you find an out come that suits you, but seriously think about our one of a kind ecosystem that no one in this world has before you consider letting an exotic enter your home or your friends, and in saying that i know its a catch 22 because of the fact that exotics are euthanised when found, maybe one day the authorities will get their act together and do a big search and sort out the herp trade once and for all before it does get too big, and that all the poor corn snakes and boas bred here for however long it has been won't be euthanised but quarantined and sent to a zoo or something to that effect to live out a happy life, because it isn't their fault some halfwit thought it was cool to keep them illegally. JMO


----------



## birdman (Aug 29, 2007)

*illegal snakes*

sorry guys but i have a point of view to and its compleetly different to yours i dont think there is any problem with keeping illegal animals in australia but i dont agree with bringing anymore in or catching them from the wild and i certainly dont agree with leting captive animals go into the wild but the fact is corn snakes are here as well as many others and i dont think people should put them down just because there exotic and there parents were smuggled i know about 5 people with illegal animals and there not just exotic reptiles either there also australian reptiles i dont have a problem with that because all there reptiles snakes turtles and lisards have all been bought of licensed breeders that have put down in there books that they have died as for they exotics heaps of people have them so why do you people care so much as long as the people who have them no how to look after them and dont let them go i think its fine asian house geckos are all over and its not illegal to have them because they have been introduced and no one cares about that well let me tell you corn snakes are right through the wilds of australia but mainly in wa and nt so why cant we make them legal sorry about the spelling im not so good with it and reptiles are not the only thing that came to australia illegaly i mean look at hawk headed parrots we have them in austraila and there legal but acording to the import records they shouldnt be here as well as licenced native parrots tones of peaple have them illegaly and i know a few people with them to and i dont have a problem with that either as long as people keep them in the right conditions and dont catch them from the wild im fine with it


----------



## Radar (Aug 29, 2007)

Birdman, that is the longest sentence I've ever read...........


----------



## Aslan (Aug 29, 2007)

...twice


----------

