# Axanthic coastal????? pics



## zobo (Oct 7, 2008)

Hi,
have posted pics of this girl before and she just shed, so got some new pics. In the flesh she is stunning but the pics are still pretty good at showing her colour especially with a normal colour for comparison. I am getting more convinced every shed that she is something different, just check out her belly, it is PURE white. The other snake has a nice cream belly, but hers it pure white.
Jas


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## nvenm8 (Oct 7, 2008)

looks very interesting, I do believe that she may very well be axanthic. You will find out when you line breed.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing the result in a few of year time


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## Camo (Oct 7, 2008)

Very nice zobo. It will be interesting to see what kind of babies she produces in the future.

Cameron


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## dougie210 (Oct 7, 2008)

That is a wonderfull snake you have there Zobo, what lovely colouration!


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## SCam (Oct 7, 2008)

very nice mate


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## caustichumor (Oct 7, 2008)

It certainly looks to have no yellow pigment, good luck with it...


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## zobo (Oct 7, 2008)

I am hoping to get a mate for her next season the same colour, but I may have to settle for a sibling. Very long term project will include breeding her over my striped coastal line if she is genetic. Should produce some nice axanthic stripes!
jas


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## waruikazi (Oct 7, 2008)

If the American's axanthics are anything to go by they tend to brown out with age. It would be great if they stayed the same colour it is now.


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## No-two (Oct 7, 2008)

If it is axanthic, gee you've had a good run with them coastals


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## LullabyLizard (Oct 7, 2008)

Very beautiful!


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## TWENTY B (Oct 7, 2008)

it looks the goods.
But if it is then you should have produced a few more like that out of the same clutch.
Results should be like breeding het albino's.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 7, 2008)

I used to breed over a hundred coastals every year a few years back and would always get a percentage of what people are now calling "greys". IMO they are just another rather common form of coastal.
Even in the wild ive relocated dozens of grey coastals over the years.
Not axanthic imo, just another form of the common old coastal.

The only coastal ive seen that would come close to being a true axanthic animal was owned by a friend a few years back and it was pure black and white.


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## zobo (Oct 8, 2008)

TWENTY B said:


> it looks the goods.
> But if it is then you should have produced a few more like that out of the same clutch.
> Results should be like breeding het albino's.




I didn't breed them but you are right, and yes so far the % is about 1 in 4 come out grey. Last year 2 out of 10 and 2 years earlier it was 5 out of 20, but they were sold off by back yard breeder as pets to loals!
jas


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## shane14 (Oct 8, 2008)

well done


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## dougie210 (Oct 8, 2008)

I really like both of them, especially if they both breed, you will get some nice colours


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## zobo (Oct 8, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> I used to breed over a hundred coastals every year a few years back and would always get a percentage of what people are now calling "greys". IMO they are just another rather common form of coastal.
> Even in the wild ive relocated dozens of grey coastals over the years.
> Not axanthic imo, just another form of the common old coastal.
> 
> The only coastal ive seen that would come close to being a true axanthic animal was owned by a friend a few years back and it was pure black and white.



LOL
riddle me this;
if a reduced black coastal like your 'trueblue' line of coastals is called hypo. why are grey coloured coastals (not just mine) not axanthic?
the def'n of hypo is basically reduced black (a lot of hypos still have some black)..fair enough, and the def'n of axanthic is REDUCED yellow/brown (basically) so why isn't a fully grey and white coastal possibly axanthic? the def'n does not say black and white.
Just curious as I must be missing something. Just because they occur in the wild and you moved a few does not mean they are not a strain that can be selectively line bred, just like people did with hypos and stripes. 
PS; what was the percentage you moved that were grey?
jas


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## gman78 (Oct 8, 2008)

Could be, only time will tell.
Nice grey colours though


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## zobo (Oct 8, 2008)

Yeah, I am not saying it is axanthic, I am just saying by definition it is pretty close and by some test breeding in the future I should be able to get some answers. There are some others out there with similar snakes (Ponybug) has some crackers from a different line, but the results from this line so far already suggest a 1:4 ratio. The thing that gets me with this one is the belly is really pure white even compared to other light coloured ones I have and the body has no colour at all except tones of grey.
jas

PS, I have seen many breeders with 'Axanthic' jungles that have more color than this guy.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 8, 2008)

Was thinking the same trueblue. Even the so called axanthic snakes in Europe have not been usefull at all in producing anything out of the ordinary. I have seen many snakes with that colour over the years. Just a natural phenomenon. Especially in a group like morelia.


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## Retic (Oct 8, 2008)

Occurring in the wild has nothing to do with it, these things don't just spontaneously happen in captivity. The definition of axanthic is reduced or no orange, that snake without doubt fulfills the criteria.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 8, 2008)

In my opinion the grey coastal does look axanthic to me .

I think its a good idea to start a thread like this and give examples of what colour phases are out there so all of us can be on the look out for colour or pattern traits for future morph projects etc 
IE .. Hypos , Tri Stripes , Axanthics . 

All these Coastal Carpet Python traits appear naturally in the wild ,, as far as I know .

Hopefully in time the axanthic colour phases or trait will be proven and 
then bred together with hypos to create offspring carrying the double traits for a Ghost Morph Coastal .
Now that would be a interesting new colour phase ??????????????????

my 2 cents 


Roger


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2008)

All hypos carry an amount of black, hypo is reduced black not a lack of it.
A true axanthic animal lacks yellow/orange pigment, not a reduced amount. As for the white ventral, you can get carpets of pretty much all forms that can have a white ventral, some with little to no speckling.
The reason i mentioned the amount of them in the wild boa, is because they are common, way more common than you would think. With carpets being so variable, imo they are just another common form of coastal.

zobo, i never said you cant breed for greys, you can pretty much breed for any form of coastal, thats not rocket science. But as said imo they are not true axanthic animals.
I only mentioned the black and white animal because it is the only coastal that ive ever seen that imo could be called a true axanthic coastal.
I dont mean any offence here at all if you have taken it that way, but the title of your thread had a number of question marks, which lead me to belive you were after opinions, ive just stated my opinion thats all.


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## waruikazi (Oct 8, 2008)

Just to throw a spanner in the works. Depending on which definition of axanthic you subscribe to it either means lacking in yellow pigment or a complete lack of yellow pigment. I think i prefer the latter because there can be less confusion about what is and isn't axanthic. Maybe we need to coin a new term 'Hypoxanthic' to describe a reduce yellow pigment. 

TB: What i have seen on US forums is that axanthic carpets brown out within a couple of years, they don't stay grey. I would assume that the brown pigment is cause by the erythrophores (red/oranges) so perhaps the black and white coastals that you have seen have a double mutation of axanthic and anerythristic.

Edit: I just found a reference to hypoxanthic in corn snakes meaning reduced yellow pigment not a complete lack.


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## Colin (Oct 8, 2008)

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCMutations.htm

*Axanthism *

This genetic mutation slightly more difficult to comprehend. Red and yellow pigmentation is not synthesized by xanthophores. There is no red or yellow pigmentation present in these animals at all. Axanthic animals typically appear as black and white, with intermediate shades of gray.

However, in some axanthic specimens, yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids may be retained in the xanthophores. Additionally, certain iridophores may reflect light in such a manner as to appear yellow. Ordinarily, the iridophores are located in the same areas as the melanophores and are masked by the presence of the black pigment. This condition may cause dark areas to appear brownish, rather than a pure black. It is certain that multiple alleles are at work here, each uniquely influencing the appearance of the specimens involved.

*Hypoxanthism *

Yellow pigmentation is greatly reduced in the xanthophores. However, yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids may still be retained in the xanthophores. This accumulates with age and may be a major contributing factor in the overall appearance of some animals. It would be expected that red pigmentation would also be reduced in these animals. There are most likely several morphs of captive reptiles which are hypoxanthic masquerading around under other 'genetic labels'. Few herpetoculturists have access to the technology required to ascertain the exact nature of the mutations in today's collections. Fewer still would be willing to sacrifice specimens for examination! Myself included! 

*Hyperxanthism *

Hyperxanthic animals develop intense amounts of yellow pigmentation as they grow, most likely as the result of extreme carotenoid retention. Occasionally, the extreme yellow coloration may be accentuated into an orange coloration where none would normally be present.

Additionally, they seem to have reduced amounts of red pigmentation present. This would most likely be malfunctioning of erythrophores, and perhaps this mutation would more properly be called anerythrism. Unfortunately, this term has already been applied to another mutation (see Anerythrism 'Type A'). Perhaps much of the confusion surrounding cornsnake genetics is simply the result of inappropriate naming of the earliest mutations, leading to confusion over the mechanics involved.


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 8, 2008)

Great thread, very interesting!!!!!

Now for the "not so mutation literates" /readers...me mainly, we need pictures...lol


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## herpkeeper (Oct 8, 2008)

one of my 06' hatchies that has no yellow pigmentation ! this thread is not about how common this form is in the wild, but a general lack of yellow pigment, be it black & white or black & grey, there would be varying levels of "axanthism" as we are talking about the single most variable species there is Coastal Carpet Pythons (Morelia Spilota McDowelli)


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes Herpkeeper that one looks axanthic too ,
its good to see a few possible axanthic projects underway ,


Roger


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2008)

Sorry Mark but you are wrong.!
Read colins post, a true axanthic animal lacks ALL yellow/red pigment not varying degrees of it.

Heaps of young coastals look like the pic you posted. Wait till its older and youll see what i mean as i can see a cream/yellow tinge thru the white already.
As ive told you many many times, imo your so called black and white carpet is not axanthic, just a common old carpet. As you just said carpets are probally one of the most variable pythons around and imo its just another "common" form of them.


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## Retic (Oct 8, 2008)

Herpkeeper, that is a beautiful carpet, it will be very interesting to see how it progresses.


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## ihaveherps (Oct 8, 2008)

Bingo Colin, alot more concise than what i had to say, but saved me typing.

Zobo, not detracting from the animal at all, it is obviously different from the average... good luck proving it out, you may well be on the right track, though the flip-side is also that it may be a random colour variation that shows no reliable mode of inheritence.

The hobby here is taking leaps and bounds as to what weird and wonderful things will hatch in the way of morphs, as happening upon the right genetics is directly proportional to the amount of animals being bred. The little debate going on here shows that there is a need to prove modes of inheritence before naming the trait... I mean, to me that snake ticks all the right boxes, yet till its proven its still only a grey coastal.


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## Retic (Oct 8, 2008)

Exactly right Simon, Jason isn't saying that the snake is axanthic just that it could through future breeding very well show itself to be, as you say it ticks all the right boxes and the fact that it occurs in wild snakes is irrelevant as all morphs to some degree can be seen in the wild.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2008)

boa, your right pretty much all forms and morphs are found in the wild, but the relevant issue i was trying to put accross is that because of how common they are, imo grey coastals are nothing special, just another common occuring form of coastal. Simple as that.
Hypos are also fairly common in the wild, no where near as common as greys, but still more common than most people would realise.
Im not the only one who thinks this. I know of lots of people around the country atm that are having a good laugh at all the claims of axanthic carpets.
Most people need to get out from behind their computers and spend some time out in the field, it would surely open their eyes alot more to whats out there and how common alot of these so called special animals are. Then im sure most, if not all, would agree that they are infact just another common occouring form of coastal.


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## Colin (Oct 8, 2008)

ihaveherps said:


> Bingo Colin, alot more concise than what i had to say, but saved me typing.



Its from the link I posted at the top of my post  
its a great site with good definitions and genetic info in my opinion..

thats a nice looking coastal Herpkeeper  


I have a question please to anyone that know the answer. any pics to illustrate would be great (thanks)

Q) what do you get when you cross an axanthic with a hypo ?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 8, 2008)

Real axanthics and Hypos? Or Australian Axanthics and Hypos? If Australian, then you get Coastal carpets!!! Not to sure. Cross reference it on that site you were using.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 8, 2008)

I think it would be ghost as the lack of black would decrease the pattern. No orange and yellow pigment, and very little black pigment would leave you with a snake that is pale grey. This is what is known as ghost.


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## Stewydead (Oct 8, 2008)

i agree with trueblue, i own afew coastals all different in colour phases but still all very common.


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## Colin (Oct 8, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> I think it would be ghost as the lack of black would decrease the pattern. No orange and yellow pigment, and very little black pigment would leave you with a snake that is pale grey. This is what is known as ghost.



thanks. thats what I thought, but wasnt exactly sure.


found this link too

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/collection/pythons/ball/ghost_hypo_ball_python.asp


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## Sdaji (Oct 8, 2008)

Colin said:


> Q) what do you get when you cross an axanthic with a hypo ?



A normal-looking carpet which is het for axanthic, or a double het if the hypo is hypo because of a Mendelian allele.

TrueBlue: Grey Carpets may be common in the wild, but maybe that just means axanthics are common in the wild. It doesn't necessarily mean that this snake isn't axanthic. You could certainly get 'false axanthics' which just happened to produce so little xanthophore and erythrins that they looked axanthic, even though they weren't carrying a Mendelian allele which prevented the animal from having the ability to produce them. Maybe the ones in the wild are false axanthics, maybe true axanthics are common in the wild, or maybe you're right and true axanthics are extremely rare, this one just being a false axanthic, but if all you've done is see snakes in the wild, how do you know?


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 8, 2008)

I think any assumption based purely on visuals of a young specimen would be dispelled or otherwise when they were fully mature adults. From what I understand about Robs experience is that all specimens he has raised looking similar, always ended up looking like normal carpets as adults eventually. This does not mean of course that every wild juvenile encountered by Rob was just a normal carpet, instead it was just more likely to be the case.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2008)

sdaji. If you had seen the animal that im refering to as the only possible true axanthic coastal that ive ever seen, then im sure you would agree with me. 
This animal looked nothing at all like any of the greys or other carpets that people are calling axanthic, a totally different kettle of fish. Plus as said ive bred heaps of grey coastals over the years not just seen alot of wild ones.
This leads me to belive that true axanthic coastals are indeed rare.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Oct 8, 2008)

I agree with both trueblue and Sdaji. It could be possible that these grey coastals are axanthic or just another form and I think the only way to settle this is through multi generational breeding. Until we've got several generations worth of results we can't really say either way. 

Trueblue, is the one you're reffering too a wild caught from the sunshine coast, looks a bit junglish? Think it was in a thread a while back. Female was white and black and was put with a yellow male. There was alot of "oo they're jungles!" being thrown around even though both parents were wild caught in SE QLD. 

I think grey to grey has to = all grey and then if mixed with more colourful (higher yellow etc) coastals and still comes up with greys and/or B&W offspring after a few generations then it's safe to say it's axanthic but until then we can't say either way and there is no point in arguing about it.


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## Sdaji (Oct 8, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> sdaji. If you had seen the animal that im refering to as the only possible true axanthic coastal that ive ever seen, then im sure you would agree with me.
> This animal looked nothing at all like any of the greys or other carpets that people are calling axanthic, a totally different kettle of fish. Plus as said ive bred heaps of grey coastals over the years not just seen alot of wild ones.
> This leads me to belive that true axanthic coastals are indeed rare.



True axanthics have greys, that's just normal. Some have browns too due to colours coming from things other than xanthophores and erythrins. You wouldn't expect an axanthic Carpet to be stunning black and white unless there was something else going on, whatever the special one you saw was, it must have been quite exceptional, but you'd expect a true axanthic Carpet to be a pretty drab snake really, not all that spectacular, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were all over the place without people noticing, just like axanthic Black-headed Pythons.

Axanthics are common in a few species without being commonly spoken of (which I'm tactically going to avoid naming!) because in those cases they just don't look all that amazing.

All that said, I agree that we can't be sure this Carpet is axanthic, not just yet. If you want to put $20 on it for fun I'm up for it though


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## herpkeeper (Oct 8, 2008)

to quote pilbara pythons ( i think any assumption based purely on visuals of a young specimen would be dispelled or otherwise when they were fully matured adults )
rob, i had seen the animal you mentioned on a number of occasions, i remember it well, i tried to buy it off him, it was a young animal, maybe 3 years tops as it was only 3 maybe 4ft long before it died. 
so how can you say it was the only possible axanthic carpet you've seen ? are you going on visuals ?


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## funcouple (Oct 8, 2008)

is axanthic genetic? if so, wouldnt it be best to breed this different one back to its parent and an opposite sexed sibbling to the other parent? then breed 2 of hatchlings from the matings back to the parent together?


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## zobo (Oct 8, 2008)

Back from work and what a response!
I have to say i think Colin may be onto something with this;

Hypoxanthism 

Yellow pigmentation is greatly reduced in the xanthophores. However, yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids may still be retained in the xanthophores. This accumulates with age and may be a major contributing factor in the overall appearance of some animals. It would be expected that red pigmentation would also be reduced in these animals. There are most likely several morphs of captive reptiles which are hypoxanthic masquerading around under other 'genetic labels'. Few herpetoculturists have access to the technology required to ascertain the exact nature of the mutations in today's collections. Fewer still would be willing to sacrifice specimens for examination! Myself included! 

This snake is unlike any I have seen before and yes I have also seen and bred many coastals. It has had siblings the same colour and nomals. Like I said I won't know until I breed it, but it looks great at the moment.
I don't know what it will be called if it keeps the colours.

One thing I would like to see however is; if there are so many of these dam things in captivity and wild lets see some pics. Surely if they are as common as some make out there must be a few pics out there. How about some baby-adult shots to show colour loss etc......c'mon guys plemty of people claim they are common so lets see them!

Personally I don't care what it is called, as it is a cracker of a snake in the flesh and I won't be parting with her!
jas


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## Australis (Oct 8, 2008)

Im with TB on this one, and ive seen my share of wild Coastal Carpets that are nothing more than shades of grey
just normal variation i suppose - they kinda remind me of the colouring seen in some Inland Carpets.
Speaking of which..
If i recall correctly a certain keeper (self proclaimed expert on genetics) thought they had 
axanthic Inlands... not sure if anything came of it, but i highly doubt it.

Labeling animals axanthic sure seems the flavor of the month, perhaps someone could suggest
a genetic label i can drop onto some horrendously ugly brown carpets i have...?




zobo said:


> Few herpetoculturists have access to the technology required to ascertain the exact nature of the mutations in today's collections. Fewer still would be willing to sacrifice specimens for examination! Myself included!
> 
> jas



Zobo,

What technology would require the sacrifice of a specimen, just to determine a mutation(s)?
I cant say ive ever heard of this, not even from o/s.. where i only notice the typical methods of
proving mutations through breeding trials, could you give anymore details for us?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes Sdaji, i know first generation will be double het and look normal. I think Colin was talking about the F2 generation, a combination of these two traits will give you a ghost morph.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 8, 2008)

I think that was a quote out of one of Colin's post that he found on the net Australis. And who was the self proclaimed expert that had axanthic inland carpets? I would say some inland carpets definately look axanthic!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes Sdaji, i know first generation will be double het and look normal. I think Colin was talking about the F2 generation, a combination of these two traits will give you a ghost morph.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2008)

sdaji, going by the post and link that colin posted true axanthic animals are more black and white than anything else with, quote, only intermediate shades of grey. The other form that are refered to as axanthic animals are still being debated on whether or not they are true axanthic animals or just a name thats been labelled to descride them.

herpkeeper, the last time i saw this animal it was easily 4-5 ft, a young adult and a breedable size, not 3 ft. 
It still had no other colour comming thru at all. Compared to the many greys and other so called b/w coastals that ive seen over the years, yes visually it is easily the only coastal that i would call a possible axanthic. We have spoken about this animal a number of times and you have agreed with me.???
I sent a b/w coastal to Brian Starky years ago that makes your female that you refer to as a b/w look incredibly normal and yet i still wouldnt of refered to it as a true axanthic animal.
This other animal on the other hand as said was a totally different kettle of fish.

disasterpeice,- no the bloke that had this animal dosnt go on line. I think i remeber the one your are talking about and once again it was nothing like the animal that im refering to.


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## Australis (Oct 8, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> I think that was a quote out of one of Colin's post that he found on the net Australis. And who was the self proclaimed expert that had axanthic inland carpets? I would say some inland carpets definately look axanthic!




Of course _some_ inland carpets _look_ axanthic, but thats to be expected within a sub-species that
is so very commonly shades of grey to begin with, naive and wishful thinking doesn't render them axanthic.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 8, 2008)

Naive and wishful thinking? Now thats a first, dont think i have been called that before. Then within the sub specie they have axanthic characteristics. But not all of us are experts, i guess.


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## Australis (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm not saying your naive, but perhaps your puppet master is.


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## ad (Oct 8, 2008)

lol Australis, yeah an all grey/black inland is a definite morph :lol:


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## Khagan (Oct 8, 2008)

zobo said:


> Personally I don't care what it is called, as it is a cracker of a snake in the flesh and I won't be parting with her!



Gotta say i agree with that statement, i couldn't give a crap what people do and don't wonna call your coastal, it's still a lot nicer than most coastals .


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## Australis (Oct 8, 2008)

ad said:


> lol Australis, yeah an all grey/black inland is a definite morph :lol:



Yeah for sure ad, ive even heard of patternless olives - these are truly amazing times ..


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## zobo (Oct 8, 2008)

Originally Posted by zobo 
Few herpetoculturists have access to the technology required to ascertain the exact nature of the mutations in today's collections. Fewer still would be willing to sacrifice specimens for examination! Myself included! 

jas 

Zobo,

What technology would require the sacrifice of a specimen, just to determine a mutation(s)?
I cant say ive ever heard of this, not even from o/s.. where i only notice the typical methods of
proving mutations through breeding trials, could you give anymore details for us? 



I have no idea I just cut and pasted the info from Colins post and that was at end of the relevant info!!


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## Sdaji (Oct 9, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> sdaji, going by the post and link that colin posted true axanthic animals are more black and white than anything else with, quote, only intermediate shades of grey. The other form that are refered to as axanthic animals are still being debated on whether or not they are true axanthic animals or just a name thats been labelled to descride them.



In some species axanthics stand out like a smile on a parking attendant. Things like Corn Snakes for example, where the normal ones are vivid red and orange. On some of these screamingly obvious ones you get browns etc, and there is no doubt they are axanthics. With Carpets it's a little trickier to know what you're looking at (as with Black-headeds, Children's, black Tiger Snakes, many of the Black Snakes, Black Rock Skinks, many other lizards, etc etc etc), because hypoxanthism is very common, as you say. The normal range goes from lots of xanthophores (like zobo's comparison animal) through to what would pass for axanthics (as you say), but it's difficult to say whether or not some of the extreme hypoxanthics are true axanthics or not.

Time will tell.

At the end of the day, this case isn't anything to get excited about, because no matter what the genetics, it's still a Carpet Python and nothing will change that.


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## slacker (Oct 9, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> At the end of the day, this case isn't anything to get excited about, because no matter what the genetics, it's still a Carpet Python and nothing will change that.




Usually I wouldn't bother responding to a thread if all I had to say was this, but I'm making an exception:

lol.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 9, 2008)

Yes i agree sdaji. But because this so called term hypoaxanthism is so common in alot of reptile species, i strongly belive that its just a false name made up to describe forms of normal common occurring reptiles.
Lets face it alot of reptile species are highly variable and imo this is just another common variation.
True axanthics on the other hand seem to be very rare in most species.

I also agree, a carpet is just a carpet no matter what it looks like. Ive turned down a free pair of albinos before, they just do nothing for me at all.
The only reason i keep the hypos is because i got them years ago when i did like carpets, just a bit. And now want to see if i can eliminate most if not all the black completely. More of a fun thing than anything else, as they to bore me to a large extent, they are still only carpets.


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## Colin (Oct 9, 2008)

Australis said:


> Zobo, What technology would require the sacrifice of a specimen, just to determine a mutation(s)? I cant say ive ever heard of this, not even from o/s.. where i only notice the typical methods of proving mutations through breeding trials, could you give anymore details for us?



I think what you are refering to was a quote from the link that I posted earlier, that Zobo quoted a section from... 

this is the link 
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCMutations.htm

Im not entirely sure what technology can be used to ascertain mutations either, but assume they might be refering to single strand conformational polymorphism analysis (SSCP) or something similar.



Australis said:


> perhaps someone could suggest a genetic label i can drop onto some horrendously ugly brown carpets i have...?



"honey" coastals :lol:


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## bundy_zigg (Oct 9, 2008)

Im with Trueblue on this - where I work we have heaps of coastals come through and they vary so much in the wild I have seen coastals like this one.


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## mrillusion (Oct 9, 2008)

love it great looking coastal


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## junglepython2 (Oct 9, 2008)

Colin said:


> "honey" coastals :lol:


 

Love your work


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## CodeRed (Oct 9, 2008)

Colin said:


> "honey" coastals :lol:


 
gold


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## zobo (Oct 9, 2008)

Still waiting for the flood of pics to come of this very common coastal colour..........  LOL

TB; you turned down a FREE pair of Albino's???????????? WHAT THE??
Now I am really worried about you LOL


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## zobo (Oct 9, 2008)

here are some pics of the sibling I just picked up to pair with the grey one. This one is not bad either but should look good after a few good feeds and a shed!
Interesting pattern on it.
jas


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Oct 9, 2008)

Very nice. She has got a wierd pattern on her, looks good though.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 9, 2008)

Nice sib Jas 
breed them and hopefully prove if its a trait
good luck


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## zobo (Oct 9, 2008)

thanks.
One more point I have learnt from a breeder of 'axanthics' in the states, is that they go through a phase (similar to B & W jungles) were they tend to brown up leading into a shed and afterwards show the grey/black/white colours. Interesting.
jas


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 10, 2008)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Nice sib Jas
> breed them and hopefully prove if its a trait
> good luck


 
I agree!!!
That sib is a looker as well....
Put me down for a pair when the time comes...


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## Retic (Oct 10, 2008)

I was with Jason when he bought that sibling and I would have snapped it up if he hadn't bought it.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 10, 2008)

Ive actually been offered a free pair of albino darwins twice by two different people, and had a pair here that i was going to breed for someone but didnt like them and moved them on. Why keep something that dosnt interest you.?? Personally ive never seen a darwin carpet that i like, i think they are absolutely crappy looking pythons.


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## waruikazi (Oct 10, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> Ive actually been offered a free pair of albino darwins twice by two different people, and had a pair here that i was going to breed for someone but didnt like them and moved them on. Why keep something that dosnt interest you.?? Personally ive never seen a darwin carpet that i like, i think they are absolutely crappy looking pythons.



Same reason i'll never own a coastal. Do absolutely nothing for me, i'd rather keep somethign that tickles my fancy.


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## zobo (Oct 10, 2008)

boa said:


> I was with Jason when he bought that sibling and I would have snapped it up if he hadn't bought it.



Don't worry Ash this season I am sure we can line something up from the breeder 
j


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## pythons73 (Oct 10, 2008)

If you get any freebies albinos all Darwins just give me a call,i will gladly take them off your hands,i dont care what ppl wont 2 call the carpet,i think its awesome,i would love 2 own it...


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## Perko (Oct 10, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> Ive actually been offered a free pair of albino darwins twice by two different people, and had a pair here that i was going to breed for someone but didnt like them and moved them on. Why keep something that dosnt interest you.?? Personally ive never seen a darwin carpet that i like, i think they are absolutely crappy looking pythons.


 



What does interest you? Green pythons " Gorrilla snot", Albino Darwins " not interested" 
Bumble bee BHP " lost interest in BHP's", coastals, etc,etc.

Yet you still breed stimmis, no offence, just wondering what keeps your herp passion going.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 10, 2008)

hahaha, yeah im getting a bit fussy in my old age.
I have a real soft spot for stimmies for some reason, dont ask me why i just do,lol. Macs on the other hand do nothing at all for me. The only childrens i keep are these light form MT Isa ones that are really nice little snakes.
I love olives, they have so much charater for a large python, well for any python for that matter. They keep my passion going when it comes to pythons. Plus womas i dont mind as they too have heaps of character.
I dont even like jungles much, the only reason i stll keep and breed the cowleys is that they are Daves and he would kill me if i got rid of them lol.
Elapids are my real passion and thats pretty much all i used to keep for years, pythons are just boring mongrel things in comparason. But back then you couldnt give them away and they used to cost me heaps each year to keep and breed them. So i got rid of them and changed over to mainly pythons to cover costs, bad mistake as most just bore me and i lose interest in them too easily.
These pilbara blackheaded adders keep me going, they are truley magnificent animals.
When i move back to s/e qld ill probally get back in to the elapids again and only keep a small handfull of pythons.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Oct 10, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> When i move back to s/e qld ill probally get back in to the elapids again and only keep a small handfull of pythons.



i'll give you $12.34 for the pythons you don't want to keep.... however many that may be....


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## zobo (Oct 10, 2008)

Gee, I better not keep anything other people don't like! Isn't diverstity what keeps our hobby going? Give me abinos anyday.
How can you dislike albino carpets (with so much beautiful colours) yet breed albino olives....1 colour?
I love both and would give a lefty for a pair of each 
j


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## Retic (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah it's a bit of a strange one, albino Darwins are absolutely spectacular whereas the Albino Olive although big is very plain. I like both but the Darwins have it hands down.


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 10, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> hahaha, yeah im getting a bit fussy in my old age.



I was going to ask the same question about what "did it for you" thanks for clearing it up!
I can appreciate your view on Coastals and one I have on certain species as well that people go crazy for...it's all personal preferences and in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

Man, i'm getting fussy in my old age as well! Although with the different morphs that all you cutting edge breeders are producing, this is what's keeping my passion alive, but not my Bank balance. lol! 
But I have to say, the carpet morphs are the ones that seem to be ones i like for now and the foreseeable future.
I also can see Robs point on "character"! It's something that keeps you interested after looking at soo many snakes every day...I too want an animal (display) that is at the least, have a personality, ie keeps you interested and learning on how they act and interact. I had a passion for Marine fish until recently, I had the most weirdest critters you could find, if only for the fact that I didn't know much about them, they were rare in captivity and they had a personality and character that was different to the norm. they were something to watch and learn from. I'd sit in front of my main aquarium for hours each day to wind down after work and just observe.
Sorry, I digress and drifted off lol, but I understand Robs view...although not too sure of the Albino give away!!! lol

Sorry to move away slightly from the thread Jas...keep up the good work though, there are some fans out there with the work you guys are doing! You too Rob.


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 10, 2008)

just to throw a python in the mix.i've encountered hundreds of pythons in the Gladstone area over many years ,and the majority are either the standard green-gray, or brown in colour.but about 3-4 years ago i got a callout to Wurdong Heights and this "black and white " fellow turned up,the only one i've found this colour in this area so i took a few photos.had a bit of scarring and old damage on him so i doubt he was an escaped pet from a different locality.


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## Retic (Oct 10, 2008)

I think that proves the point very well, of course all these things occur in the wild BUT they are obviously rare in comparison. Being wild doesn't preclude it from being axanthic or hypoaxanthic or indeed any other 'morph'.


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## Australis (Oct 10, 2008)

Found North of Gladdy, predominantly grey carpet of which ive found 
a lot - but rarely photographed any.
Possibly what Slimebo is describing?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 10, 2008)

Southside Morelia,- Youve got it in a nut shell.! cheers at least someone uderstands where im comming from. lol.
Its the chatacter of the olives that floats my boat. Darwins are a boring crappy snake no matter what they look like imo. The only one that slightly interests me is the melainistic one snake ranch has, but id get bored in the end with it too no dought. lol. Out of all the carpet sub- species Darwins have always been the one that do the least for me, just never liked them. Had a pair of albinos given to me to breed for someone for a few years but passed them on after a few months, just wasnt interested in them. Boring snakes.
Olives on the other hand are active inquisitive animals for pythons as long as they arnt over fed and turn into large fat blobs. And a large active pure white, (shades of cinimon when hatcted turning yellow till around 4-5), snake is a sight to behold. very cool animals. Same with womas, they do all sorts of crazy things. Makes it more fun.
As said elapids are what really turns me on, i spose olives and womas behave more like them compared to most other pythons.
Dont get me wrong, in the future there will be some nice looking albinos produced, as long as they are kept pure lol, some very pretty snakes, but in every other aspect they do absolutely nothing for me, just not my thing.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2008)

zobo,- huh ? Thats a bit of a weird/silly comment. Why would it bother me what you or any one else keeps?, means nothing at all to me. Just cause i dont like something dosnt mean that other people dont, and vise versa, just cause someone likes something dosnt mean i have to. Are i not entitled to my own opinion?. Very strange comment.!!
You obviously have never kept elapids so have no idea at all where im comming form.


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## colt08 (Oct 11, 2008)

hi trueblue i know what You mean even though only keep 4 snakes, its like peer pressure in a way somone smoke,s they try make u smoke. someone get a python they like they they think u must get one,
if get what i mean anyways bye.!!!
chris


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 11, 2008)

Australis said:


> Found North of Gladdy, predominantly grey carpet of which ive found
> a lot - but rarely photographed any.
> Possibly what Slimebo is describing?


yeah they are our standard common coloured ones.the black and white one was out of the blue,the only one i've found here so far


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2008)

colt08, your right on the money mate. I like and keep what i want, not what other people think i should like and keep.
I dont do the peer pressure thing, its not my style.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2008)

slimebo, ive seen quite a few like that on the sunny coast, still nothing like what id call a black and white or axanthic as theres heaps of other colour showing thru. Just another common old carpet.
And yeah your right, that grey one is a very common form, dime a dozen.


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 11, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> slimebo, ive seen quite a few like that on the sunny coast, still nothing like what id call a black and white or axanthic as theres heaps of other colour showing thru. Just another common old carpet.
> And yeah your right, that grey one is a very common form, dime a dozen.


gday Rob.it wasn't my intension to say that it was axanthic,it was just a different colour form to the majority of coastals found around Gladstone.i too have found a few black and whiteish coastals around the Lake Baroon area near the sunny coast,just rare up this way.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2008)

Yeah sorry i didnt mean to imply that you ment it was axanthic, i was just stating that its another common colour fase of carpet.


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## zobo (Oct 11, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> zobo,- huh ? Thats a bit of a weird/silly comment. Why would it bother me what you or any one else keeps?, means nothing at all to me. Just cause i dont like something dosnt mean that other people dont, and vise versa, just cause someone likes something dosnt mean i have to. Are i not entitled to my own opinion?. Very strange comment.!!
> You obviously have never kept elapids so have no idea at all where im comming form.



that was just a sarcastic dig at the people who constantly get onto threads and bag the type of animal the thread is about.

I am not just refering to the coastal bagging in this thread, but I see a lot of negative comments on other threads and personally I don't know why people take the time to reply to something that does not interest them? (maybe just to get their number of posts up or look important?)
Personally I don't care what anyone thinks as I have copped a lot of rubbish before over the striped coastals and I have found that opinion is divided yet I still can't breed enough of them.

I like coastals (all forms) and think that morphs and line breeding of unusual colours/patterns is the way of the future. just my opinion.

I have seen the pics posted here but from the pictures they appear to be just the normal colour coastals and not exactly grey. Any better pics to compare to?
j


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## TrueBlue (Oct 12, 2008)

Where have i bagged the grey coastals???. I have given my opinion on how common and ordinary they are thats all. You seem to have a bit of an inferiority complex going on, and take offense to anything that anybody says that dosnt agree with you and what you keep.


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## Retic (Oct 12, 2008)

Jason, at the end of the day none of it makes any difference, it is a great snake in it's own right and I for one am very interested to see how it turns out along with that sibling  You will always encounter negativity, it just goes with the territory, the only person you must ultimately please is yourself.


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## zobo (Oct 12, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> Where have i bagged the grey coastals???. I have given my opinion on how common and ordinary they are thats all. You seem to have a bit of an inferiority complex going on, and take offense to anything that anybody says that dosnt agree with you and what you keep.




TB, get over yourself, read the post. It was not even directed at YOU personally. I never said you bagged the grey coastal in any of my posts, I said there are people on this site who constantly bag animals that the thread is about. Like I have already said, I would not bother typing if the animal was not of interest to me, why take the time to write negative stuff? I just skip over posts of animals I don't like as I don't have time to sit and argue/stir up the owners.

Inferiority complex? LOL, I have had so many PM's and emails about this thread from people who are also sick of the rubbish talk and the 'herp-gods' who think they rule the earth and their word is gospel. I dont really give a stuff. There are a lot of people out there who agree and not all are willing to post because of the rubbish like this that starts. 

I love to see other peoples snakes and especially morphs/varieties and love to see the threads they post, but now I am reminded of why I didn't bother posting for a while. Mate everyone is entitled to an opinion but certain people seem to want to push their opinion on everyone and argue the point till it gets boring and others submit.

I see your point, you dont like coastals etc, fair enough then, get off the thread on COASTALS!
Not rocket science!




reminder of a few memorable quotes on coastals/darwins just from this one thread alone; ( I am not wasting my time going through other threads but I have seen plenty of bagging of peoples animals by people who dont like them, why bother posting?)

I also agree, a carpet is just a carpet no matter what it looks like. 

they to bore me to a large extent, they are still only carpets.

Personally ive never seen a darwin carpet that i like, i think they are absolutely crappy looking pythons. 

Darwins are a boring crappy snake no matter what they look like imo


Like I said why bag a type of animal the thread is about? go read another thread or start one on animals you like

Have a nice day!

Be positive 

LOL

And as usual I am yet to see any pics that are good enough quiality to compare colours etc C'mon eveyone they are a dime a dozen, there should at least be 1 good photo showing the true colour close up???


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## GrumpyTheSnake (Oct 12, 2008)

Here you go Jas 

These pics were taken pre- shed, so he's that yucky smudgy colour. But he still looks good to me.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 12, 2008)

hahaha, get over YOURself you mean. Oh thats right youve produced a handfull of clutches so are an expert now ah.!!! lol.

This thread was not about darwins, but grey coastals, ive never bagged your precious grey coastals.
I was asked a question about what herps did it for me, and i answered. 
You started the thread with question marks which i took as if you wanted opinions, i simply gave you my opinion, you then seemed to take offence. I then even stated that i ment no offence, and was just giving my opinion but once again you get all upset and cry babies over nothing. lol.


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## becspythons (Oct 12, 2008)

Unreal photos zobo and grumpy, beautiful snakes regardless what type they are. petty u can't ignore some a holes that write crap though hey?


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## gozz (Oct 12, 2008)

love the comments guys lol , some people , take peoples herpin experiance and comments to heart and should just harden up. Buy the way theres no comment on here thats really nasty. Some people should have a box of Kleenex next to them so they can wipe the tears away ha ha


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## moreliainsanity (Oct 12, 2008)

gozz said:


> love the comments guys lol , some people , take peoples herpin experiance and comments to heart and should just harden up. Buy the way theres no comment on here thats really nasty. Some people should have a box of Kleenex next to them so they can wipe the tears away ha ha


 
Agreed 100% Gozz, no real nasty comments that is to cry for
TB was just giving opinion and I think this is taken to heart LOL
As for pics here's one grey coastal?????? currently for sale on RDU for $120
Grab em before the price goes up


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## Retic (Oct 12, 2008)

That's a nice looking snake Grumpy, not as grey as Jasons but nicely marked.


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## zobo (Oct 12, 2008)

trueblue said:


> hahaha, get over yourself you mean. Oh thats right youve produced a handfull of clutches so are an expert now ah.!!! Lol.
> 
> This thread was not about darwins, but grey coastals, ive never bagged your precious grey coastals.
> I was asked a question about what herps did it for me, and i answered.
> You started the thread with question marks which i took as if you wanted opinions, i simply gave you my opinion, you then seemed to take offence. I then even stated that i ment no offence, and was just giving my opinion but once again you get all upset and cry babies over nothing. Lol.



yawn


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## zobo (Oct 12, 2008)

That last pic is a normal one, I can see the red belly from the thumbnail....not quite the same.

This is all really quite funny. I made some generalised comment and some sook takes offence and I am the cry baby....go figure LOL

People are funny, and some just need to lay off the grass! 

If you read the thread I made a comment and it was someone else who started a hissy fit, not me, seriously I'm over it.
If anyone wishes to continue a debate we can do it in a private forum (PM me) it does not need to get nasty and public.
jas


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## TrueBlue (Oct 12, 2008)

no offence taken here zobo, quite the oppisite infact.
Ive had a dam good laugh thou. hahaha.


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