# Did it become legal to crossbreed in some states?



## Tigerlily (Sep 29, 2015)

I came across some people selling "mix carpets" and at first I thought they were dodgy small scale but I was wrong; they have a huge following, YouTube channel etc... Only a few years ago I remember reading a devastating article about how a bunch of crossbreeds were seized and euthanised. Have laws changed since then? If not, what am I missing? Is it legal to create "mix carpets" from legally acquired "intergrades"?

(I have zero intent to breed anything btw... Just interested.) cheers


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## caliherp (Sep 29, 2015)

In short, yes it is legal in Aus to cross carpets. There was a thread floating around here called "Show us your intergrades"(it may have been lost" Its worth searching for non the less.


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Sep 29, 2015)

Not sure but I believe they were hybrids that were euthanised water python to carpet python I think, not carpet crosses. have a look at the thread created by madsylar "breeding stimmy to a spotty" some interesting opinions and discussions about hybrids and cross breeding.


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## Waterrat (Sep 29, 2015)

There are two species of Carpet python; M. spilota and M. bredli (Cogger 7th ed.), the rest are sub-species (if you believe there is such thing) or locality forms.
Their taxonomic status is one thing but we should also consider the ecological differences between the few sub-species, that are significantly different. Legality aside, one should think twice before crossing e.g. M.s. cheynei with M.s. imbricata. Unfortunately, many, if not the wast majority of today's hobbyists don't know much about snake's biology and ecology or simply don't care.


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## Chris (Sep 29, 2015)

Tigerlily said:


> Only a few years ago I remember reading a devastating article about how a bunch of crossbreeds were seized and euthanised.



This happened to a certain person here in SA a couple of years ago, he crossed a Bredli with a Spilota, evidently DEWNR confiscated & euthanised the whole clutch. Not sure if he was fined or not?


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 29, 2015)

In some states it is absolutely illegal - try doing it in WA and see how you go when you are busted, some states have it as illegal on the books, but don't take any action, and NSW has the curious situation where we have a category listed as Morelia sp. to cover Carpets of unknown heritage, so this effectively makes prohibition pointless. In any event, crossbreeders are regarded as pariahs by many of us "old-timers" - me included.

Jamie


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## Tigerlily (Sep 29, 2015)

Thank you [MENTION=20031]Waterrat[/MENTION], I never knew Bredli was different from the other Morelia species so I've learned something! These people are crossing Bredli with Coastals, jungles etc so would that not be considered illegal?
[MENTION=34392]caliherp[/MENTION] I thought that an intergrade came from a crossing in the wild vs being bred in captivity?
[MENTION=41817]Chris[/MENTION] - that is so fricking sad. Fine him, jail him whatever - if it's a law you gotta enforce it - don't just confiscate and kill the animal who never asked to be born this way. 

Personally I don't have an issue with mixes but if the market for them is truly illegal yet flourishing the way I just saw, I'm just floored by the government's double standards. Which is why I wanted to know if it's actually illegal or not... "Frowned upon" and "illegal" are two completely different places, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks [MENTION=41820]pythoninfinite[/MENTION] I just re read your reply and got my answer lol. I guess I just live in one of those states where it's illegal by the book but no action taken - zero surprise there going with my past experiences with the wildlife preservation folk. It REALLY irritates me. I won't rant anymore lol. Thanks for clarifying!


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## turtle (Sep 29, 2015)

All the Jag siblings get sold as mixed carpets. Even though I'm not into Jags, I'm glad people sell them as mixed rather than something else.


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## Bushfire (Sep 29, 2015)

Waterrat said:


> There are two species of Carpet python; M. spilota and M. bredli (Cogger 7th ed.), the rest are sub-species (if you believe there is such thing) or locality forms.
> Their taxonomic status is one thing but we should also consider the ecological differences between the few sub-species, that are significantly different. Legality aside, one should think twice before crossing e.g. M.s. cheynei with M.s. imbricata. Unfortunately, many, if not the wast majority of today's hobbyists don't know much about snake's biology and ecology or simply don't care.




Its three species, spilota, bredli, and imbricata.


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## Waterrat (Sep 29, 2015)

Bushfire, not according to the reference I gave. I follow Cogger (7th ed.) and no one else. There are too many amateur taxonomist who put their way in front of real science.


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## Bushfire (Sep 29, 2015)

That's from the paper that actually did the dna work

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not going to buy into the whole amateur vs working argument here. Both sides are really as bad as each other. The three species was what that paper supported. The rest as part of spilota grouping (right or wrong depends I suppose).


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 30, 2015)

Tigerlily said:


> Thank you @Waterrat, I never knew Bredli was different from the other Morelia species so I've learned something! These people are crossing Bredli with Coastals, jungles etc so would that not be considered illegal?
> @caliherp I thought that an intergrade came from a crossing in the wild vs being bred in captivity?
> @Chris - that is so fricking sad. Fine him, jail him whatever - if it's a law you gotta enforce it - don't just confiscate and kill the animal who never asked to be born this way.
> 
> ...



The issue is that the Depts involved in managing reptile keeping are under-resourced and poorly funded, and the followup work for proof - DNA testing, finding witnesses etc - is too expensive and time consuming. They have enough on their plates trying to catch those pulling animals from the wild and doing other wildlife-related crimes.

Jamie


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## Wokka (Sep 30, 2015)

pythoninfinite said:


> The issue is that the Depts involved in managing reptile keeping are under-resourced and poorly funded, and the followup work for proof - DNA testing, finding witnesses etc - is too expensive and time consuming. They have enough on their plates trying to catch those pulling animals from the wild and doing other wildlife-related crimes.
> 
> Jamie


 I am not sure that tracking down and euthanasing crossbreds would win too many votes nor achieve any of the goals of National Parks and Wildlife Service, which one would assume is to assist and preserve wildlife!


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 30, 2015)

Wokka said:


> I am not sure that tracking down and euthanasing crossbreds would win too many votes nor achieve any of the goals of National Parks and Wildlife Service, which one would assume is to assist and preserve wildlife!



Yes, I agree with you Warwick, it's not a good look even when the big guys confiscate and euthanase exotics. I'm sure they don't like doing it much (the euthanasia that is) either. It's always a pity to see healthy critters put down - imagine having to inject gorgeous otherwise healthy chameleons with green dream! Similarly, I hope the greyhound "industry" is absolutely shut down for the same reasons...

Jamie


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## pinefamily (Sep 30, 2015)

Bushfire said:


> That's from the paper that actually did the dna work
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I'm not going to buy into the whole amateur vs working argument here. Both sides are really as bad as each other. The three species was what that paper supported. The rest as part of spilota grouping (right or wrong depends I suppose).



Do you know where the paper can be seen?


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## Ryan-James (Nov 5, 2015)

Great question Tigerlily, I have been wondering the same thing as I see jags, random crosses and bitzers openly advertised in SE Qld, very pretty snakes but I wonder what sort of impact escapee's may have on local morelia populations in years to come.


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## Wokka (Nov 6, 2015)

Ryan-James said:


> Great question Tigerlily, I have been wondering the same thing as I see jags, random crosses and bitzers openly advertised in SE Qld, very pretty snakes but I wonder what sort of impact escapee's may have on local morelia populations in years to come.


An escapee Morelia cross should have less effect on local populations in SE Qld, than say a "pure" Darwin escapee, in that some crosses may contain more "local" genetic material than some distant locale of Morelia!


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## Ryan-James (Nov 6, 2015)

Interesting point wokka, I have seen some pretty amazing looking aus hybrids online both here and overseas such as Woma x carpet, gtp x various morelia sp, jag x hypo bredli with stunning results, just wondering what the Qld law is regarding these


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## butters (Nov 6, 2015)

According to the legislation they are illegal.

Nothing will be done unless a complaint is made and even then it's unlikely. As mentioned most of the departments responsible are stretched pretty thin and captive crossbreeds are down the list in terms of priorities.

Then there is the argument that captive animals shouldn't even be classified as wildlife anyway. That is a whole different discussion.


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