# Keelback, Tiger, or Rough-Scale at Dingo Tops, NSW?



## markannab (Jan 7, 2013)

A friend saw this snake inland at Dingo Tops NSW in a creek. It didn't appear aggressive even though they nearly stood on it. They described it as striped full length. The picture seems to show large eyes. Distribution maps I have suggest tiger snakes come this far down, but rough-scales and keelbacks don't. But the large eye suggests keelback to me. Any thoughts, though I know the picture is low quality?
Mark.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 7, 2013)

The picture isnt clear enough to make an accurate ID


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 7, 2013)

Rough-scaled do occur in the area. The snake is banded, not striped, along its length. The base colour of olive with narrow, dark and very regular bands is consistent with a Rough-scaled snake and rules out a Tiger snake. Despite the poor quality of the pic, there is sufficient detail available under magnification, when combined with locality data, to provide, in my opinion, a positive ID as a Rough-scaled snake. This ID is strengthened by the semi-aquatic behaviour demonstrated. 

Blue


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## markannab (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks for your detailed reply. I've passed it on.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 8, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Rough-scaled do occur in the area. The snake is banded, not striped, along its length. The base colour of olive with narrow, dark and very regular bands is consistent with a Rough-scaled snake and rules out a Tiger snake. Despite the poor quality of the pic, there is sufficient detail available under magnification, when combined with locality data, to provide, in my opinion, a positive ID as a Rough-scaled snake. This ID is strengthened by the semi-aquatic behaviour demonstrated.
> 
> Blue



So are you saying Tiger snakes are not found in habitat such as this?
I have zoomed in on this pic and I cannot see any traits that 100% rule it out as a Tiger, can you please post a zoomed in pic of this pointing out what I am missing?

Thanks Josh


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## GeckPhotographer (Jan 8, 2013)

Zooming in the only trait I can even distinguish it from an eel with is a vague sense of the body shape being wrong, to try and ID it as any kind of snake I would be making guesses. Furthermore all of Blues characteristics point just as equally to a Brown Tree Snake as they do a Rough-scaled Snake.


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## bigguy (Jan 8, 2013)

Could also be a young Eastern Brown The pic is terrible for any detail apart from the banding. So you have 4 species to pic from, any would be a guess from that poor pic. Only thing for certain its not a Keelback for a change)


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 9, 2013)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Zooming in the only trait I can even distinguish it from an eel with is a vague sense of the body shape being wrong, to try and ID it as any kind of snake I would be making guesses. Furthermore all of Blues characteristics point just as equally to a Brown Tree Snake as they do a Rough-scaled Snake.



I laughed at your reply, only as my first thoughts were the same about it almost looked like an eel


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 9, 2013)

*GeckoJosh*,
On what basis do determine that I am saying tiger snakes are not found in the habitat. Of course they are. The banding that is visible is far too narrow for a tiger snake. Also the colours of body and bands are not consistent with those of tiger snakes. It was on this basis that I eliminated them as a possibility.

*Geckophotographer*,
The last couple of comments you have made on my contributions to IDs indicate a personal disagreement rather than an objective assessment. I do not where your issue emanates from but it would be better sorted out by personal messages, rather than the open forum. 

The colours and width of banding are not consistent with those of a BTS. The snake in question was diurnal and BTS are nocturnal. My conclusions were not based on full body form or proportions. So while you may decry the absence of these features and arrive at your own conclusions based thereon, you do me an injustice in terms of the observable traits and the logic I utilised to arrive at my conclusion. 

*Bigguy*,
Again, the visible banding is too narrow for an eastern brown snake and the behaviour of the snake being partially immersed in water is not consistent with the behaviour of eastern browns.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 9, 2013)

This Blue "This ID is strengthened by the semi-aquatic behaviour demonstrated."

I do not know why you feel so strongly about your choice of ID, the pic is clearly not focussed enough to make any 100% calls.


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## GeckPhotographer (Jan 9, 2013)

Blue I have no personal disagreement with you. The original set of characters you gave all pointed towards a BTS just as much as a Roughy. Now that you have clarified the features you can see they do point more to a Rough Scale, though I'd say I've found more than a few BTS in the day time, not to mention Roughies are also nocturnal. 

My problem is that as my first comment alluded even at the highest zoom I can achieve I cannot see any features whatsoever, in fact though I can see some variation in colour it is not defined as banding in the picture (the only banding I know it has coming from the description). So where you're seeing all the features you see I don't know. 

Now I know Dingo Tops fairly well I've frogged there many times and I've nearly stood on a few roughies there, if you said you saw a snake in the water there my first thought would be roughy, but there is absolutely no way I could ID that snake from the picture.


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## Echiopsis (Jan 9, 2013)

Could be various snakes. Too much variation at species level to say it is, or is not, one species or another. Any ID beyond 'snake' is nothing more than a guess.


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## Firepac (Jan 9, 2013)

We have established we cannot give a positive ID and a few suggestions have been put forward. Time to leave it there...


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 9, 2013)

Blue

- - - Updated - - -

GeckoJosh made the point to me about displaced animals. Whilst a slim possibility, it cannot be ruled out without diagnostic features being clearly visible. Therefore I need revise my original ID… 

The snake in question is most probable a Rough-scaled but a clear photo showing a diagnostic feature would be required to fully confirm that.

Blue


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## Firepac (Jan 9, 2013)

I have tidied up some of the more personal and provocative posts. Please remember if you feel a post is a personal attack report it or take it up via PM do NOT respond in the thread.

Also remember it is okay to disagree with someone but attack the point NOT the person.


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## markannab (Jan 9, 2013)

...May I say a genuine thankyou to those who made a genuine attempt at identifying the snake. Whether they were correct or not, they gave it their best shot and, in most cases, gave reasons for their answer. That is, after all, what this section is all about.


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