# These eggs freak me out every time!!!



## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

Well it started, Pipped the first eggs for the season today. I was not going to take any chances with my babies. Luckilly the *SIM incubation tub*  ( annoying sales pitch) keeps it nice and humid in there so they dont dry out. Every time I see these pythons in their eggs they look so under developed.


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## azn4114 (Nov 11, 2009)

are they albino darwins?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes


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## ashisnothereman (Nov 11, 2009)

why did you open them?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

I have had hatchlings die in the egg in years gone past. This prevents them from drowning and dying in the egg. Just gave them a helping hand into this world.


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## azn4114 (Nov 11, 2009)

ashisnothereman said:


> why did you open them?


coz there ready,shes just saying they always look under developed,good luck with them


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## orientalis (Nov 11, 2009)

Any pictures of the parents?


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## TahneeMaree (Nov 11, 2009)

That's creepy... But oh so interesting to see! Is the membrane still entact? (is it the veins I can see?)


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## Kris (Nov 11, 2009)

Just wondering if the sim tubs are so great and the best thing to incubate in, why is there a need to worry about the bubs and cut them open early? 

Cheers,

Kris.


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## ashisnothereman (Nov 11, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I have had hatchlings die in the egg in years gone past. This prevents them from drowning and dying in the egg. Just gave them a helping hand into this world.



ah k., cheers mate. hope they all go well.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

I will add photos later orientalis. Because I am paranoid about them dying in eggs. I have only had it happen once before. Lost enough babies to make anybody paranoid.


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## Jason (Nov 11, 2009)

good luck. i have lost more animals by pipping them then i have by leaving them.... i was told that if you are considering pipping the eggs candle them first for veins, there shouldnt be any visible when they are ready because the young absorbs the blood etc??
best of luck.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

This is Mum




and Dad


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

Each to his own I guess. I pip, have never lost a hatchling. I have a very small surgical scissor, if you have steady hands and work gently there is very little chance of cutting through veins. After 51 days at 31.5 degrees celcius the eggs are ready. All they have to do now is crawl out, and they are good to go.


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## Bonustokin (Nov 11, 2009)

Ha! Thats unreal! Cheers for sharing mate. Dad looks awesome btw.


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## azn4114 (Nov 11, 2009)

the mums gorgeous,and look how proud she is


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## ashisnothereman (Nov 11, 2009)

can you see them moving/ swimming around???


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## Southside Morelia (Nov 11, 2009)

Nice shots.....great sales pitch and brings me one step closer to some purchases...well done!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks all. The funny thing with albino carpets is that I have not encountered a violant angry one. These mother albino snakes are grumpy as hell, I don't blame them. I can just imagine how grumpy I would be if someone tried to take my boy.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

They don't swimin there. It's not big enough to do laps in. They only rotate their heads to light and away from light. The veins are usually not that visible on pigmented hatchlings.


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## azn4114 (Nov 11, 2009)

can you keep us updated with pics as they come out?theres only 2 pythons i want to add to my collection,another bhp and an albino darwin..


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## mungus (Nov 11, 2009)

I also pip, but at about 50 - 55 days.
I cut a 10cm V shape in the top of the egg.


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## Jay84 (Nov 11, 2009)

God, when i heard the term pipping i assumed it was just a little slit put in the egg, not a whole section removed?!?!? Thats very interesting and great photos! So what are the reasons for the young not being able to hatch naturally? Is it because the albino hatchlings are sometimes not as strong as the normal coloured snakes? I know in birds, sometimes the mutation animals are weaker than the normal coloured birds.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 11, 2009)

Would this not encourage survival of snakes that maybe should not have survived in the first place?? i.e. a hatchy with genes that prevents poor or no egg tooth developement?? by pipping in advance you do no know whether this is the case or not, then if these snakes go on to breed for successive generations, with one another (as albinos tend to due to a small founder population), then it could result in poor gene fitness amongst the bloodline??

Just a thought.


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## dottyback (Nov 11, 2009)

Amazing photo's Niccy! That would make for an excellent article for a herp magazine/paper.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

They would not climb out of the egg if they were weak. Most breeders that I know pip their eggs once the first hatchling sticks it head out. Weak snakes will not eat or would be fussy feeders from birth. I don't believe in assist feeding or force feeding. Once they are out they are offered food every week. If they don't eat then I don't force them. I start all my hatchling pythons on pinky rats. I have had hatchlings go 10 months before taking food by themselves. If by pipping I was weakening my lines then surely these hatchlings would die eventually. I think us snake keepers sometimes do not give these animals survival instinct enough credit.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 11, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> They would not climb out of the egg if they were weak. Most breeders that I know pip their eggs once the first hatchling sticks it head out. Weak snakes will not eat or would be fussy feeders from birth. I don't believe in assist feeding or force feeding. Once they are out they are offered food every week. If they don't eat then I don't force them. I start all my hatchling pythons on pinky rats. I have had hatchlings go 10 months before taking food by themselves. If by pipping I was weakening my lines then surely these hatchlings would die eventually. I think us snake keepers sometimes do not give these animals survival instinct enough credit.


 
I was referring to the non-developement or absence of an egg tooth (i.e. unable to naturally pip themselves, a genetic abnormality perhaps), not the likely hood of leaving an already pipped egg. These animals would naturally die as a result because they would not be able to get out of the egg. How can you know if this was the case if you don't wait for atleast the first egg to pip??

Don't get me wrong, i'm not having a go, just generally curious to your input. I've been doing some scientific reading into python genetics and IMO heavy inbreeding (while maybe not causing a physical abnormality) may have other genetic effects that aren't instantly or easily apparent (i.e. parasite/disease resistance, egg tooth development, reproductive health in terms of egg/sperm production and %slugs etc).


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

I will endeavour to take some photos of their egg tooth for you. I have not seen a hatchling without an egg tooth, ever.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 11, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I will endeavour to take some photos of their egg tooth for you. I have not seen a hatchling without an egg tooth, ever.


No need, I believe you. 

What are your thoughts then, on why they would not naturally pip the egg and just sit in there to die?? (like that clutch did for you). I only ask because you state you now pip to avoid this happening? Maybe if they didn't naturally pip the egg then it was for a reason? Maybe other genetic factors are at play?? egg construction perhaps??

The clutch that you lost from not pipping, did they have egg teeth that were well developed or did you not happen to notice??


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## Kersten (Nov 11, 2009)

I still can't understand why it is necessary to pip eggs before the due date. As long as the incubation conditions are good, and the snakes themselves are healthy and properly developed, I would have thought there would be no reason to expose them before they are ready to emerge. As I'm always interested to learn new methods of dealing with breeding, incubating and handling hatchings, I'm curious to know what the reason was?


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## pythons73 (Nov 11, 2009)

So after 51 days you pipped them,they dont generally hatch in that time,i dont understand why you dont wait until 55-60 days.If they were destined to hatch they would.I realise everyone has there way of doing things,but to me this is unnecassy....MARK


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

I pipped them at day 51, I feel this is the best method for myself. It's hard work to get out of the eggs so I give them a hand. This leaves energy for more important things in life, like eating and growing. Why do we give human babies ceasareans, surely they can make it out on their own? We choose to make the process easier.


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## BROWNS (Nov 11, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I have had hatchlings die in the egg in years gone past. This prevents them from drowning and dying in the egg. Just gave them a helping hand into this world.


Sorry if I have misunderstood you but you said you have only had eggs die or drown in their eggs one time yet in the above quote you say you have had hatchlings die in yyears gone past" which suggests to me it may have happened more than just once.If they have died in the egg in the past there has to be a reason for that.Did they have their egg tooth?As has been mentioned it may be a genetic problem with them having no egg tooth and if they didn't have one they obviously weren't destined to hatch?If it were to be genetic and you bred the animals that had been pipped possibly without an egg tooth it would pass that gene on to the next generation.I don't understand why you didn't wait until at least a head or more was poking out before pipping all the rest.

Just looking at the animals in the eggs and they don't appear fully developed or ready to hatch as they look all white and they only get their hatchling colour a few days before hatching and seems a little early into the incubation to cut them open hence the possibility or reason for them looking all white and as many albino owners will know they hatch out a pinkish colour and a 2 tone pattern and look a lot different than the ones in the cut eggs.This is just an observation and my opinion on the information given along with the pics.


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## No-two (Nov 11, 2009)

pythons73 said:


> So after 51 days you pipped them,they dont generally hatch in that time,i dont understand why you dont wait until 55-60 days.If they were destined to hatch they would.I realise everyone has there way of doing things,but to me this is unnecassy....MARK


 
I know of several cases where people have lost entire clutches cause the snakes couldn't get out of the eggs, had they have piped them, they'd all be alive now. Just cause theres a fully formed snake in the egg and it hasn't hatched yet it doesn't mean it hasn't tried. In atleast one case the snakes had no egg tooth, and couldn't slice the eggs.

But saying that I never pip unless I've seen one head.


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## Kris (Nov 11, 2009)

Edit, will repost in my acc.

Kersten


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## Kersten (Nov 11, 2009)

Caesarians for human babies are often done not only for the health of the baby, but of the mother. They are also rarely (if ever) done from a personal preference. Snakes lay multiple eggs to increase the likelihood of at least one surviving past laying. Humans most often only have one child at a time, multiple births past triplets are usually the result of human intervention, not biological design. Snakes are left to fend for themselves on hatching (excepting perhaps African Rock Pythons), human babies are cared for by their mothers until they can fend for themselves. Comparisons of "birthing methods" for the two are at best illogical. There are few similarities, we are designed for completely different methods of reproduction. If you were talking about the mother or other snakes being able to pip eggs to help them hatch the comparison might fit a little better. As it stands, it has little relevance as a reason to interfere prematurely.

Oh and as a further note....we have evolved to posses the ability to interfere in our own birthing processes to increase our chances of successful reproduction. Snakes, obviously, have not.


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## BROWNS (Nov 11, 2009)

Sorry I'm a bit lost here Kersten,who was making the comparison or were you using it as a sort of example?


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## Kersten (Nov 11, 2009)

Carpetpythons.com.au used the example of human intervention in human births as a comparison to her intervention with the eggs in post 32. Sorry Browns, I should have included the quote but when I posted it I didn't think anyone was likely to post between the post I was referring to and mine.


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## BROWNS (Nov 11, 2009)

Aha now I see what you mean and completely agree with you.Makes one wonder if they were coastal eggs and the paranoia of losing one or more if the same practice would be carried out?Honestly I can't see anything but what look like leucistic animals"all white" meaning they wouldn't be ready to hatch just yet.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

I have had hatchling inland carpet pythons die full term after slicing holes in their eggs and poking their heads out. Human childbirth is a fair example, it's our choice to choose. What happened before we had ceasareans? The mother and baby died. It happens with all animals these days. Because we choose to intervene, babies and hatchlings alike have a better chance of survival. Browns: how many eggs have you seen with albinos in them and have you ever seen a hatchling without an egg tooth? I know I have not ever seen a hatchling without an egg tooth. I pip them at 51 days, I find that this method insure all of them have 100% chance of survival and no egg deaths at full term.


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## Kersten (Nov 11, 2009)

Again, if you were using an example of snakes interfering in the process of their babies birth, that would be a fair comparison. It's completely different. We as humans make the choice for ourselves, or have it made with our consent. And it's usually done only when it has to be.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 11, 2009)

No-two said:


> I know of several cases where people have lost entire clutches cause the snakes couldn't get out of the eggs, had they have piped them, they'd all be alive now. Just cause theres a fully formed snake in the egg and it hasn't hatched yet it doesn't mean it hasn't tried. *In atleast one case the snakes had no egg tooth, and couldn't slice the eggs*.
> 
> But saying that I never pip unless I've seen one head.


 This is the point i'm trying to make Hayden. There has to be a reason for the snakes not hatching from the egg, provided the incubation was successful. This means that the animal either has a genetic trait carried down from the parens that has prevented successful hatching OR it may be a one off mutation...in which case only that snake would not hatch. 

Therefore, i question the reasoning for pipping the eggs before they had naturally been done, purely for fear of them not hatching naturally. To me this only encourages the breeding of snake with "less fit" genes that maybe should never had naturally hatched. This, IMO, is a bad keeping practice both personally and for the industry.

Just to be clear, i have no objection to people who widen, or increase the size of an ALREADY pipped egg but i personally do not believe in pipping an unpipped egg. It never hatched for a reason.......as they say.....Let sleeping dogs lie.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

You must have a crystal ball in front of you to know these thing browns? Could it be that the absence of air in their lungs might be the reason for their colour. I will post pics every day from now on to show their emergence eventually.


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## Kersten (Nov 11, 2009)

You yourself said they looked under developed. That would be because they are.


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## ad (Nov 11, 2009)

Im tending to agree, pythons develop their colouration in the last weeks, no colouration means premature birth imo. You could be waiting a considerable time for the hatchling to break out, keeping it moist will be hard Id imagine? Good luck with them, I wait til one pips, the next day if some haven't I will pip them, each to their own, but seems a bit extreme to me,
Congrats on the clutch though, should be some crackers around this season, be sure to post up some pics hey, If you intend to price them reasonably as you have stated, they should sell well for you, and create a price precedent 
Cheers
Adam

Cheers
Adam.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

Underdeveloped at 51 days and 31.5 celcius? I knew I should have never posted photos. Opinions, opinions, opinions.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 11, 2009)

They are albinos, they lack melanin. There should not be any colour. This is why I said these eggs freak me out every season. Thanks for the good wishes Ad.


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## yommy (Nov 11, 2009)

Generally like others, i wait for the 1st to appear, then pip the rest. Are we right or wrong? who knows......
Your pythons pip when you want to, its no one else's business, would love to see progress pics...........
and good luck with them.


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## Australis (Nov 11, 2009)

Was it a clutch of legendary Axanthic Inlands?


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## ad (Nov 11, 2009)

yeah no worries CP.c.a  your pipping work looks great, it takes a lot of patience, 
when do they get their reddish/pinkish hatchling colouration?
Cheers
Adam


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

What does CP. c.a stand for Ad? Yeh it takes steady hands to perform surgery like that. Yes Australis, I have heard of that morph! I have not had the pleasure of hatching anything that exciting. I


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

As I said I will update this thread as we go along. Pure Darwin all the way!


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## Kersten (Nov 12, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> What does CP. c.a stand for Ad?


Erm, I would think that CP.c.a would stand for Carpetpythons.com.au....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

You should know that C.P.c.a is not the correct abreviation. Bloody short hand. Must have had a blonde moment. Hopefully you will see the progression in colour in the following days.


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## Kersten (Nov 12, 2009)

Indeed. That will certainly be interesting.


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## Ishah (Nov 12, 2009)

:lol:


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## Duke (Nov 12, 2009)

Subscribed to this thread


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## Pythons Rule (Nov 12, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I have had hatchling inland carpet pythons die full term after slicing holes in their eggs and poking their heads out. Human childbirth is a fair example, it's our choice to choose. What happened before we had ceasareans? The mother and baby died. It happens with all animals these days. Because we choose to intervene, babies and hatchlings alike have a better chance of survival. Browns: how many eggs have you seen with albinos in them and have you ever seen a hatchling without an egg tooth? I know I have not ever seen a hatchling without an egg tooth. I pip them at 51 days, I find that this method insure all of them have 100% chance of survival and no egg deaths at full term.



here is an example this was day 65 and the top one died just days of the other one coming out. the one on top is dead but it was bourn without an egg tooth, the other I piped the egg I didn't wont to loose it as well. only baby to hatch 2008.

no egg tooth died on day 65 of incubation
View attachment 107480


with egg tooth
View attachment 107481


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## trickedoutz31 (Nov 12, 2009)

lmfao thats a classic CP.c.a


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

Interesting. So if you did not help the other one would not have survived?


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## BROWNS (Nov 12, 2009)

He said the dead one had no egg tooth which was the question you asked me if I had seen a hatchling with no egg tooth,hence the reason the top one died so I'm guessing Pythonsrule pipped the other one thinking it may also have had no egg tooth.

You mentioned you always pip yet on the other hand you said you lost a whole clutch which wouldn't have happened if you did pip.For a whole clutch of healthy eggs not to hatch means something went wrong somewhere,maybe all had no egg tooth a friend of mine lost 3 nicely striped jungles due to no egg tooth and I had the same last season,however for every egg failing to hatch is very strange if they were fertile healthy eggs and suggests they may not have meant to hatch due to some abnormality or as the yanks say an anomoly"sp?"


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## Ramsayi (Nov 12, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Underdeveloped at 51 days and 31.5 celcius? I knew I should have never posted photos. Opinions, opinions, opinions.



Actually at that temp the normal hatch time would be around 58 days so yes they are under developed,the pics you posted clearly show that also.

I still don't understand this lack of egg tooth business.Something to think about,maybe the eggs themselves are too tough for the hatchling to to pip by themselves and the egg tooth wears away or falls off prior to actually pipping?

Anyways as far as manually pipping eggs go I never do not for any species.I used to although I would wait until well over half the clutch had pipped all by themselves before interfering.


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 12, 2009)

The hatchlings are all upside down.... in the pipped egg photo....this is a sure sign, they're not ready to come out.
They'll "upright" themselves.... when it's time.
I have pipped a few eggs at 40 days....just to watch a developing snake. It sure is cool to watch....and, has no ill effect on the hatchlings.

D.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks for all the input. I shall ask the moderators to remove some of the rubbish assumption out of this thread. Thanks Derek, it's amazing to see how people can carry on about somebody elses achievements. That's interesting Ramsai? It's been a funny season this year. Females laying early, heat waves in November and underdeveloped hatchlings! Amazing.


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## JasonL (Nov 12, 2009)

Personally I am not a huge fan of pipping eggs, reptiles that fail to hatch can usually be put down to having calcium / develpmental problems, possibly from heating issues somewhere throughout the breeding process or carried forward from a female with calcium issues. These problems should be addressed so that young snakes hatch normally and weaker ones die. Raising weak snakes doesn't help anyone other than the person selling them.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

Browns:_You mentioned you always pip yet on the other hand you said you lost a whole clutch which wouldn't have happened if you did pip._ *Please show me exactly where i said i lost a clutch?*
Browns: _So now it seems you are agreeing by saying we'll hopefully see the progression of colour in a few days meaning they are not ready to hatch yet so why pip?_ *Because on my books 51 days is hatching time, its not just me that thinks that but literature also suggests that. And You the forum viewer will see the development. I have witnessed this before. I dont base my opinion on pictures.*
Ramsayi: _Actually at that temp the normal hatch time would be around 58 days so yes they are under developed,the pics you posted clearly show that also. _*They sometimes do sit around in their egg shell for a few days. *
JasonL: _Raising weak snakes doesn't help anyone other than the person selling them._ *You should go an tell that to all those keepers out there that assist feed and force feed their hatchlings after a month. I agree that weak hatchlings should not be allowed to live. I have never assisted in snakes feeding, even if it takes a year. I have also never lost a hatchling to starvation. They all seem to figure out that the food is their friend.*


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## JasonL (Nov 12, 2009)

JasonL: _Raising weak snakes doesn't help anyone other than the person selling them._ *You should go an tell that to all those keepers out there that assist feed and force feed their hatchlings after a month. I agree that weak hatchlings should not be allowed to live. I have never assisted in snakes feeding, even if it takes a year. I have also never lost a hatchling to starvation. They all seem to figure out that the food is their friend.*[/QUOTE]

It is just my opinion that to make ourselves better keepers that we should figure out why they are not hatching and try to rectify the problem and not take shortcuts to gain success. Hatchling snakes don't eat for various reasons, yes sometimes it is because they are weak, but usually it's because they want to eat skinks... A poor eater is a hatchling that is heated perfectly and won't take a skink.... and that isn't overly common from a snake that hatched out on it's own.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

*JasonL : *_Poor eater is a hatchling that is heated perfectly and won't take a skink.... and that isn't overly common from a snake that hatched out on it's own._ *Unfortunately this is not allowed, so best we get them onto our preferred food source. Another choice that we as keepers make for our snakes. ProChoice!*


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## redbellybite (Nov 12, 2009)

WELL ...as a fence sitter ,due to not knowing alot about this matter ...I will be watching this thread over the period of time ..keep the pics happening CARPETPYTHON ..and as for any other views bring em on ...always an interesting debate ...best of luck with your babies too


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## TahneeMaree (Nov 12, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> WELL ...as a fence sitter ,due to not knowing alot about this matter ...I will be watching this thread over the period of time ..keep the pics happening CARPETPYTHON ..and as for any other views bring em on ...always an interesting debate ...best of luck with your babies too


 

Me too... I wish to learn, and learn I shall!


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## JasonL (Nov 12, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> *JasonL : *_Poor eater is a hatchling that is heated perfectly and won't take a skink.... and that isn't overly common from a snake that hatched out on it's own._ *Unfortunately this is not allowed, so best we get them onto our preferred food source. Another choice that we as keepers make for our snakes. ProChoice!*



Yes I agree.... and I don't have a major issue with opening or slitting eggs as at times I have done it myself for various reasons, but I would rather experienced keepers refrain from making it standard practice and to work out why they are having snakes die in eggs and aim to perfect their keeping instead of using a quick fix...at the end of the day you may loose more snakes, but in the end you will come out a better keeper with a better understanding on heating / incubation needs of reptiles.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

I have never said my techniques are perfect. I am still learning. I had a look this morning and their heads are are all in the right position. The point of this thread was to show you guys something you might not have seen before. Even some of the more experienced keepers might not have witnessed this before. Especially with some albinos. But there are always those who can not help themselves and critisise everything to make themselves feel more important. I hope some can find use in observing the development of these hatchies. I will post updated pics this arvo. My son was a lot to handle this morning.


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## Jason (Nov 12, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Underdeveloped at 51 days and 31.5 celcius? I knew I should have never posted photos. Opinions, opinions, opinions.



i pipped a clutch of womas last season at day 60, incubator was between 31.5 and 32, only a small V on the top as most people do, long story short only one had coloured partially the rest had not yet coloured up at all.... even with 100% humidity etc they all died. 
i only pipped because several people had told me its safest.... ironically a few that said to i have heard recomend against it now.
best of luck. loock foward to watching there heads imerge.

for those that think pipping in this manner is 'extreme' check out this link and look at some of his previous hatching videos. he cuts larger then this and basicaly removes them from the eggs.
YouTube - prehistoricpetstv's Channel


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## Hemiaspis (Nov 12, 2009)

Very Interesting to see. Thanks for sharing.


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## pythons73 (Nov 12, 2009)

That is so correct JasonL,Personally i wouldnt pipped the eggs until atleast a couple have stuck their heads out,but each to there own...Have you done this same procedure before,if so what species of snake were they...I hope all ends well...Best of luck..cant wait to see those little ones.....Just remember Jason,what works for some doesnt mean it will work for others....MARK


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## vitticep (Nov 12, 2009)

I reckon they look great, congrats on the babies.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 12, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> *But there are always those who can not help themselves and critisise everything to make themselves feel more important*. I hope some can find use in observing the development of these hatchies.


 
Just to clear the air, my original question were innocent. It was simply honest curiosity as to the reasonings behind failed curiosity. I just thought that a breeder of your size, might have had some insight into why failed hatchings may have occured. I queried the egg tooth developement as this would be an obvious cause of failed hatching but could most certainly be a genetic trait as well. However, i also asked for your opinion on potential reasons as you had mention failed hatchings before, therefore, i figured you might have insight as to why due to the volume of snakes you produce.

Could you answer this one question for me though.....Did the snakes you that you stated you lost in years gone by, to failed hatching, have egg teeth?? If so, then do you have any thoughts as to why they may not have hatched?? This was the sole reasoning for the questions, as pipping this early would mask the development of an egg tooth but not other developemental problems that may cause death in the egg or failed hatchy (if failing to emerge from the egg is not reason for death).


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Nov 12, 2009)

Putting my two cents worth in and saying that those photos look facinating!


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## FAY (Nov 12, 2009)

This thread is very interesting. Everyone has their own methods.
Who is to say whether the hatchies would survive if they were pipped or not???
Maybe not. But at least the keeper felt they were giving the hatchie a better chance of survival.
Something may have happended previously to make them be much more cautious.
I personally won't pip eggs until at least one is showing his head. I remember on one occasion we pipped an egg and the little diamond's head came flying out as if it was gasping for air!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

We are not nearly as big as some seem to think. We just out a lot of effort into our website and made it user friendly. There are keepers on here that have massive collections. To answet the question Josh. The 3 or 4 hatchlings I lost slit their eggs and their heads were out. They pulled their heads back into their eggs and after this they never came out again. I believe that they start breathing air. They somehow manage to pull their heads into the albumin and try to breath in there and drown. I will usually cut a triangle flap into the egg. I prep through this window to see how far along the hatchlings are. If there is a lot of yolk in there I close the lid again. After day 51 I cut the window out and give the egg a slight squeeze to get rid of some of the albumin. This reduces the chance of the hatchlings to pull their heads into the albumin. I do this with all my clutches. This is my choice.


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## TahneeMaree (Nov 12, 2009)

Hey I give full points to Carpet Pythons honesty on the subject... it's their choice to do it and people can choose to like it or not, or buy from them or not... they don't seem to be decieving anyone.


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## pythons73 (Nov 12, 2009)

With this topic CarpetPythons you will get a mixed response and answers.Im not saying that you have done the wrong thing or the right thing,the simple fact is its YOUR CHOICE.Finding out more information regarding the egg tooth etc would be interesting,why some lose the tooth in the first place.ETC...Have you ever used this method before,what species were they,what was the hatch rate.....All the best with those lot i hope all ends well,i hope we see all those little white worms in the future.....MARK


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## JasonL (Nov 12, 2009)

pythons73 said:


> .Finding out more information regarding the egg tooth etc would be interesting,why some lose the tooth in the first place......MARK



If I had to have a guess it would be because it is soft from a calcium issue and not strong enough to cut through the egg shell, like a gecko that is soft and spongy, most of them die i the egg too and this (with geckos) is usually caused from the female being depleated or overheated and thus produces eggs way to fast....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

We are not nearly as big as some seem to think. We just out a lot of effort into our website and made it user friendly. There are keepers on here that have massive collections. To answet the question Josh. The 3 or 4 hatchlings I lost slit their eggs and their heads were out. They pulled their heads back into their eggs and after this they never came out again. I believe that they start breathing air. They somehow manage to pull their heads into the albumin and try to breath in there and drown. I will usually cut a triangle flap into the egg. I prep through this window to see how far along the hatchlings are. If there is a lot of yolk in there I close the lid again. After day 51 I cut the window out and give the egg a slight squeeze to get rid of some of the albumin. This reduces the chance of the hatchlings to pull their heads into the albumin. I do this with all my clutches. This is my choice.


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## GreggMadden (Nov 12, 2009)

Congrats Nic...
Another species successfully hatched on the S.I.M.!!! Awesome pics of some amazing snakes entering the world... Keep doing what you are doing!!!


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## Kris (Nov 12, 2009)

They haven't come out of the eggs, so it isn't successful just yet.


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## scam7278 (Nov 12, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Congrats Nic...
> Another species successfully hatched on the S.I.M.!!! Awesome pics of some amazing snakes entering the world... Keep doing what you are doing!!!



talk about counting your chickens lol


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## -Matt- (Nov 12, 2009)

Dont count your chickens before they hatch......

Would be interesting to see updated pics each day until the hatchies finally emerge out of their eggs on their own.


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## Ramsayi (Nov 12, 2009)

I was in no way critical of your methods but merely putting out some relevant info for other keepers who may of decided to open eggs up early due to reading this thread.They are your eggs to do with as you please.

Opening eggs early may encourage the snakes to emerge early still with yolk attached rather than absorbing it all before emerging..


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## azn4114 (Nov 12, 2009)

can we have some updated pics please


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

I will post new pictures as soon as I get home from work. I know you were only giving advice Ramsayi. I was not having a go. I apologise if you misinterpreted. Nobody I counting chickens. From previous experience they should be out soon.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

Day 52: Heads up!!!
Heads have rotated to sit in the right position. They have started to move a lot and are opening their mouths quite a bit. Their colour is still light pink. Photos can be deceptive. I use a blunt probe to just press lightly on them to observe movement. This is more for my own peace of mind than anything else. I dont want newbies to thry this at home please!!! The first picture shows the blood vein than is attached to the yolk. When cutting the egg this is the major vein to miss. They will bleed to death if you accidentally cut it.


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## ad (Nov 12, 2009)

Great pics, 
People will have a dig at you now for stressing them hatchies with the camera flash 
Cheers
Adam


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## turtle (Nov 12, 2009)

Hey CP.com.au,
Your eggs look like there cookin just fine. Now its just playing the waiting game. Maybe avoid assisting them out of the egg though.
Congrats

Cheers,

Dan


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## phatt01 (Nov 12, 2009)

Absolutely awsome! A very educational thread congrats.


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## wranga (Nov 12, 2009)

thanks for sharing your method CarpetPythons. your method works for you so who can really judge you for what you do. this is a really interesting thread and its great reading different breeders thoughts about pipping. looking forward to more up-dates and photos CarpetPythons


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks all, I never assist them out of the eggs. They do that all by their lovely selves!!!


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## richardsc (Nov 12, 2009)

isnt pipping them your self assisting them out,lol,interesting thread,and if it works for you,thats all that counts,ive never bred pythons,only lizards,i let them pip them selves,but if a few havnt hatched after the rest have i have pipped to investigate,normally a week later,and normally to find dead babies,if yours come out you should have some stunning bubs if the parents are anything to go by,very nice


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## geckos_are_great (Nov 12, 2009)

thats realy cool. can you do that with any type of eggs or just snakes


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## Danielle-S (Nov 12, 2009)

Those photos are just AWESOME!!!! You must be so excited. Congrats on their imminant arrival!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

I would not try it unless someone shows you exactly how to do it. So thats why i have listened to some of the older members on this forum and have decided to warn newbies against trying this themselves. Just look at these. Its interesting enough.


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## Slateman (Nov 12, 2009)

great pictures. Interesting technique, great to see pipped eggs at 51st day.
i wouldnt pipped the eggs until atleast a couple have stuck their heads out. So far that work for me the best.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

52 days to be exact Slateman. Thanks for the compliments. I only own a pink little 7.2 megapixel cybershot, I was also quite surprised how good those photos came out. More pics tomorrow. I am expecting some heads out of the albumin tomorrow.


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## serpenttongue (Nov 12, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> I still don't understand this lack of egg tooth business.Something to think about,maybe the eggs themselves are too tough for the hatchling to to pip by themselves and the egg tooth wears away or falls off prior to actually pipping?


 
That's what I was thinking. Since the egg tooth isn't really a part of the snakes body (not fixed to the skull), but rather a sharp blade that forms on the upper lip, I do believe it can break off easily before they have sliced right through the egg shell. Either this, or the egg tooth wasn't properly developed to begin with. An under-developed egg tooth sounds more probable (and this MAY be due to inbreeding), for the egg shells of maternally incubated eggs (which they would be in the wild) are tougher than those incubated artificially, and wild babies seem to be hatching without problems.


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## wiz-fiz (Nov 12, 2009)

how do u cut it like that?
and the dad is STUNNING!!!


Will


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## BROWNS (Nov 12, 2009)

It is a bit of a different method and you can now see some colour and if this way works best for you that's all that matters.

I haven't looked in ages but on the HERP SHOP site there was a pic of a fully opened egg with I can't remember what sort of reptile it was still developing and was done by Brian Barnett where he sort of tied parts of the shell to a type of stand with string,I guess dental floss could work well but it's really very interesting thatthe animal was incubated in this way and still emerged as a healthy hatchling.!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 12, 2009)

Here are some photos of a clutch from last year. Did exactly the same and all of them hatched, no problem. I did have one egg that was half the size of all the other eggs. I never thought it would hatch. It did and what an attitude he has!!!!


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## aprice (Nov 12, 2009)

snake eggs are hardier than most people seem to think. watch some videos from this user to see some egg cutting [video=youtube;fycArUSAKN4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fycArUSAKN4[/video]


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## adz83 (Nov 12, 2009)

this has been a very interesting read

cheers carpetpythons for sharing and best of luck


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## GreggMadden (Nov 13, 2009)

serpenttongue said:


> for the egg shells of maternally incubated eggs (which they would be in the wild) are tougher than those incubated artificially,.


 
I do not see how this statement is correct...


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## Australis (Nov 13, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I never thought it would hatch. It did and what an attitude he has!!!!



You didn't cut it?


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## Ishah (Nov 13, 2009)

aprice said:


> snake eggs are hardier than most people seem to think. watch some videos from this user to see some egg cutting YouTube - Is Jay Playing Favorites?


 

Yep.. This guy gets hell rough in his egg cutting... Cant remember which one it was, but these two are interesting vids... They go for like 10mins, but yeh... Pretty cool nonetheless! Just hate his accent or whatever when saying stuff like "albino" :|

You this rough with ur eggs CP.com.au?
[video=youtube;kAJEXvbv9ao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAJEXvbv9ao[/video]

[video=youtube;CZHWKsXyrII]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZHWKsXyrII[/video]

Sorry, can't remember how to embed or whatever, the youtube vids... My computer savvy-ness has evaded me tonight  :? But you get the idea... the links are there too anyways... Maybe admin removed the embed option/ability??? :? Ok... Just had a look at a past post I KNOW had a vid attached/embedded into it, and its gone...  So maybe you can't do that anymore..?


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## GreggMadden (Nov 13, 2009)

It is very disappointing to see certain people trying to bring this thread into the toilet... I just do not see how a thread that has pictures of the reproduction and successful incubation of albino Darwins can spawn negativity, nastiness, and name calling...
It is funny how envy can make people act sometimes... Even though I am not producing albino carpets, I am very happy for those who do, especially my friend Nicole!!!
Again, a HUGE congratulations to Nic!!!
Well done!!!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

I did cut that little egg at full term. It weighed 18g, less than half of a normal size egg. I don't get the idea of handling reptile eggs like their made from glass. Th first cut is a V shape in the top of the egg. Of course you have to be careful as you don't know where the major veins of the embryos are at that stage. After I have a peek, I cut out the window completely. This allows me to view the embryo. In my mind this would allow for better oxygen absorption as well. I could be wrong about the last point. It just makes sense that gas exchange would happen more freely with this window.


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## redbellybite (Nov 13, 2009)

Iam really enjoying this thread and taking on board posts by everyone ..the fors and againsts ...both have good points ..keep the pictures coming ..they look good ..lets just hope it ends well for you too ..


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## nicman72 (Nov 13, 2009)

Very informative (and entertaining) thread. 

Does anyone have any pics of baby lizards in a pipped egg? Would the principle be the same as with snake eggs? And also, how do you learn to do it - is it one of those things that you need to be shown for the first time? I'd be WAY too nervous to cut into an egg - wouldn't trust my shaky hands - too many coffees!

Cheers for the pics and updates; keep 'em coming!

Nic


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Had a look this morning. Not much to report. They are still sitting in there, staring at me. They must be thinking "Why are you bothering me for exactly?". They were flicking their tongues too. I like showing you guys something different. That's why forums like these exist, to learn something new. Its a good break from the usual discussion of hybrids, pricing and lynching! Ill take some photos tonight. Work, work, work! It never stops. Melbourne temperatures have been funny this year. I think it has definately affected hatching and egg laying periods. I know you are thinking but in an incubator the temperatures are stable, outside weather should not affect it. In my opinion air pressure must also play some role.


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how you can know if the weather has affected hatching times when, in your own words, these eggs have all been pipped by you and subsequently poked and prodded to promote movement. They've not been given the chance to develop normally to their hatching time.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Yes they have been pipped by me. And yeas once a day i will gently touch them with a probe to see movement. My method works and I have hatched hundreds of pythons like this. There must be something wrong with this method. How many pythons are you hatching this season?


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

And again, how can you know the heat has affected hatching times if your eggs aren't hatching naturally? I'm not sure why you haven't asnwered the implied question and have instead tried to deflect. I'm not actually questioning your method in making the point about the weather affecting your eggs, I'm simply wondering how you can claim that as a factor in the hatching time.

Oh and not that how many eggs we have has anything to do with you knowing if the weather has affected your eggs, but around 60. Thankfully not too many.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

You like to ask the question, but what makes you think that the temperature did not affect them staying in there? Did you even read my post? Its my opinion!


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

Oh I read your post. I'm wondering how you made that leap is all. Since, as I said, they haven't actually hatched on their own. You've made a lot of posts in this thread dismissing the opinions or assumptions of others, even when they've been based on fact. You even went so far as to suggest their opinions should be removed from the thread, And yet you have become quite defensive after a simple question about how you've reached the conclusion that the hatching time of your eggs has been affected when a) they have not yet "hatched" as it were and b) they have been tampered with in such a way that it is impossible to determine when and if they would have hatched on their own.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 13, 2009)

CP
I find your observations extremely interesting and am learning a lot. .. thanks for sharing 

There's nothing more devestating than waiting the required 60 (or so) days and watching half the clutch poke their little heads out of the slits they have made themselves. Then the rest can't seem to open the egg and die fully formed ... ???? A million times I have asked why ????
This happened only once and from then on I slit the eggs at 60 days and watch
Cheers
Sandee


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

I could never satisfy you with an answer.
Kersten: _question about how you've reached the conclusion that the hatching time of your eggs has been affected when a) they have not yet "hatched" as it were and b) they have been tampered with in such a way that it is impossible to determine when and if they would have hatched on their own. _Most pythons slit their eggs and stay in their eggs for a few days after. Its a tiring process. I know i intervene and this is my choice. I can make an educated guess as to why i think the Hatchlings have not climbed out yet.. We have had record temperatures in Melbourne for November. Hatchling snakes are especially prone to dehydration. Why would a hatchling risk exposure by leaving the egg in temperatures that might kill it? I have had inland carpets slit their eggs in december 2008, ten days before they were due. Coincidentally this was the same clutch that had a few deaths after slitting the eggs. Just after they slit their eggs we experienced a heat wave over melbourne. It would make sense that hatchlings know when to get out. If external air pressures as well as temperatures are not favourable then they must know to sit tight. Lizards that hatch underground usually stay there till a rain storm passes so they can get out. The rain softens the ground and also cools down the environment. A wet environment means more plant growth and allows for insect eggs to hatch. This is the optimum conditions to insure their survival. Reptiles also seem to move around a lot more with a drop in barometric pressure. We dont know why? But most field herpers have observed this phenomenon. 
I know you will argue these points Kersten. As there will never be a correct answer to your questions. I am sure there are things we will just never be a hundred percent sure of when it comes to our scaly friends.


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

And this is a perfect example why you shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know based on them asking a few questions. I may not agree with your answer, since as has been previously stated these animals have still not left the eggs of their own violition and may still go to full term in that state but I'm satisfied that you believe that to be the case. I really don't know why you didn't just answer it that way to begin with instead of reacting so defensively when you've made such a point of your desire to educate the members of this site.


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## adelherper (Nov 13, 2009)

wow dude the dad is rad


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

I was frustrated as you always seem to want the answer now. I need to sit down to answer in an appropriate manner. I cant always do this as I dont sit behind a desk at work, thus i answer things in drips and drabs. You make it sound like i want to educate you? You seem educated enough. 
Kersten: _And this is a perfect example why you shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know. _I can say the same about you! 

Kersten: _may still go to full term in that state. _Not may, but will!

Adelherper: _wow dude the dad is rad _ . I just had a very proffesional cameraman. He is hot though!


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## firedream (Nov 13, 2009)

well cp.com.au i am extremely glad that you have posted this info. I like to learn as much as possible about snakes and your experience is helping me to learn new things. i only wish more people shared their experiences to educate people. thanks heaps.


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

CP.c.a....I have never, ever demanded an answer right then and there. I have been confused at times as to why you often seemingly respond to questions while not actually answering them at all. I am not attempting to make it sound as though you want to educate me, I'm referring to the allusions you have made through this thread to providing infromation about different breeding techniques.

As for the assumptions (I notice you have left out the part where I added the qualifier that the assumptions were made based on a few questions), I have not done so here. I have however gained information about how you handle breeding based on facts you have supplied yourself. If the information I have gleaned is incorrect, then there is little I can do about that as I can only work with what you post. I'm sure you've been completely honest.

If they definitely will go to full term in that state then the weather cannot have affected them so much at all.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

It could be that they just feel safe right where they are. I could be wrong though. We might never know. I just know that according to the litterature available darwin pythons average incubation time is 51 days at 31.5. If the average was 60 then i would cut at 60 days. Averages are based on gathered statistics. You could have a clutch hatch at 40 days or at 60 days? Its just a median value. i am glad we cleared that up. I am sure you do things that i might differ in opinion.


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## GreggMadden (Nov 13, 2009)

Kersten,
Why not post some of your albino carpets hatching??? Do you have any eggs incubating right now that you can collect data from and share it with all of us???


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## dtulip10 (Nov 13, 2009)

....


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Kersten,
> Why not post some of your albino carpets hatching??? Do you have any eggs incubating right now that you can collect data from and share it with all of us???





dtulip10 said:


> hahaha yeah show us your albinos.
> 
> Kersten, have collected any data to back up your argument??



Greg, I don't recall having mentioned breeding albinos. I do in fact have eggs incubating which I could collect data from. However, I don't regard myself as an authority on this subject and feel that posting any data I collected along with my methods would be unwise as it may lead novice keepers to think I was speaking with authority and my methods should be duplicated. I would hate to lead someone astray with bad advice.

Dtulip10, perhaps you should reread the thread, I have asked questions. Not stated any particular method is better than another.


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## Hetty (Nov 13, 2009)

Gregg and Dtulip, I suggest you read Kersten's posts again, she's asking genuine questions.


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## Crazy_Snake08 (Nov 13, 2009)

great looking Dad!!! eggs look great!! keep hte pics coming too!


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## BROWNS (Nov 13, 2009)

Why does everyone seem to judge experience according to how many pythons they can breed and breeding albinos is such a major success proving experience?They are just carpets after all and breeding carpets isn't exactly rocket science.I have also been told it's illegal to breed albinos but everyone or most that have them will breed them.

I would have thought that these hatchlings would not go full term rather they would have shorter incubation times etc etc due to using the new s.i.m incubating tubs,plus if pipping them as has been done which was said to give better oxygen supply and gas exchange however from reading about the s.i.m tubs they already allow for approx 100% gas exchange etc.

You can still see they aren't ready to hatch by comparing colour from your last seasons albinos.It certainly is a different method you use compared to how most people I know incubate their eggs but many people use different techniques and are still hatching animals successfully so the methods are different but the results are the same meaning these methods are not correct nor are they wrong,whatever works for people to get the same end result is entirely up to them how they incubate their eggs.


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## pythons73 (Nov 13, 2009)

I dont think they were albinos last season BROWNS...not by judging those photos..look like normals..maybe Hets......MARK


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## No-two (Nov 13, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> Why does everyone seem to judge experience according to how many pythons they can breed and breeding albinos is such a major success proving experience?They are just carpets after all and breeding carpets isn't exactly rocket science.I have also been told it's illegal to breed albinos but everyone or most that have them will breed them.


 
It's only in QLD that it's illegal to breed them, no other state has that rule.


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## BROWNS (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm not sure if they're hets and albinos or they're just albinos as they come out a very dark pinkish 2 toned colour.

I was actually told by someone it was illegal in Australia but obviously it's incorrect!


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## Ramsayi (Nov 13, 2009)

It is important to understand that hatching is based on the time the animal LEAVES the egg so the none of the snakes in the pics have hatched at this stage.

Pipping eggs early opens the hatchies to a few different problems.Firstly for whatever reason they may decide to leave the egg before fully absorbing the yolk sack still with the umbilical attached,something that should be avoided at all costs..

Something else to bear in mind once eggs are opened the contents yolk,albumen and snake are exposed to the outside elements,unopened shells afford the contents some protection from this.

Once opened an exposed to the air the albumen and yolk start to deteriorate,ever noticed how quickly the eggshells start to deteriorate once hatching starts? To my mind this should be avoided at all costs also since the snake is still absorbing yolk which is most likely going off.


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## serpenttongue (Nov 13, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> I do not see how this statement is correct...


 
Artificially incubated eggs remain in an environment (the egg container) of constant warmth and humidity. This allows the egg shells to remain as soft as they were the day they were laid. With maternal incubation, the eggs are exposed to temperature and humidity variations, as well as the friction caused by shivering thermogenesis. At the end of incubation the egg shells have become a dirty brown colour and are drier and tougher than artificially incubated eggs.


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## BROWNS (Nov 13, 2009)

I've noticed that eggs maternally incubated hatch out larger compared to artificial incubation.Has anyone else tried both methods and noticed a difference in hatchling size?I'm asuming it could be that for some reason they absorb more of the yolk than when artificially incubated?

Rams,would you please be able to put up a pic of a freshly hatched albino to show what colour they come out with?


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## FAY (Nov 13, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> It is important to understand that hatching is based on the time the animal LEAVES the egg so the none of the snakes in the pics have hatched at this stage.
> 
> Pipping eggs early opens the hatchies to a few different problems.Firstly for whatever reason they may decide to leave the egg before fully absorbing the yolk sack still with the umbilical attached,something that should be avoided at all costs..
> 
> ...


Wouldn't the egg also be open to bacteria getting in? Or having a sealed only water container avoid this?


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## Ramsayi (Nov 13, 2009)

Here ya go Browns.









GARTHNFAY said:


> Wouldn't the egg also be open to bacteria getting in? Or having a sealed only water container avoid this?



No Fay,egg shell acts as a barrier to a lot of the nasty stuff present in the environment


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## BROWNS (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks Rams,that's the colour they should be on hatching which these in this thread clearly do not have full hatcling colour yet hence being under developed and I just can't see any reason to interfere.I totally agree with everything you mentioned as well Fay and as I mentioned before the sim incubation apparently allows for approx 100% gas exchange so how does pipping the eggs in this way give even better gas exchange and oxygen intake.

Sometimes books don't get everything right and instead of going on a book for information on incubation time for Darwins I would be getting facts from other darwin breders to find out they're incubation times and Rams has bred them before knowing how long the eggs take to incubate.Again one would assume going on the information about the SIM tubs they should hatch earlier however this doesn't seem to be the case!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

They were Darwin hets. Just took those photos to compare the tiny egg in comparison to the others. I agree with Browns 100%, its not rocket science to breed carpets in *Queensland*. It is however slightly more technical in Victoria although not much. Your experience also does not get gauged on how many you breed, but more on how consistent you are with your results every year. You also have to be able to get everyone to eat and shed properly. 

The SIM has never been used on Pythons before so it is a first. I wont go back using anything else. The feedback I have gotten have been extremely positive. Using these units are my choice. There are loads of other techniques that work just as well but from now on its the sim for me.

Browns: _I would have thought that these hatchlings would not go full term rather they would have shorter incubation times etc etc due to using the new s.i.m incubating tubs,plus if pipping them as has been done which was said to give better oxygen supply and gas exchange however from reading about the s.i.m tubs they already allow for approx 100% gas exchange etc. _*I dont get the argument anymore?* They did not hatch earlier, I guess it did not shorten the incubation time in Pythons. Its never been tried on Pythons though. I will make all the non believers happy and not pip a next clutch so we can see how long they incubate in these containers.


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## Ramsayi (Nov 13, 2009)

Browns,my incubation time falls in line with quite a few other breeders also that's why I am confident stating around a 58 day inc period at that temp,that and the fact I have been breeding darwins in some shape or form for years now.

As far as any containers influencing hatch times I am very very sceptical as by far the biggest influence in inc times is temp,pure and simple,as at the end of the day a plastic container is just that


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> Wouldn't the egg also be open to bacteria getting in? Or having a sealed only water container avoid this?





Ramsayi said:


> No Fay,egg shell acts as a barrier to a lot of the nasty stuff present in the environment



I think what Fay is asking is if the eggs are pipped in such a way, and the contents exposed, is the chance of bacterial exposure heightened? 

As far as the sealed water only environment goes Fay, I wouldn't think that it would stop it completely given that water on it's own can still provide a breeding ground for bacteria.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

I dont know what your issue is with the colour thing Browns. They are pink. My camera sets the lighting and shutter speed as well as focus automatically. You should know how hard it is to capture colour on Albinos. You own one after all! Have you ever considered that this might make mine look lighter. I am hoping they hatch all white! Would that not be spectacular! 

Ramsayi: _Pipping eggs early opens the hatchies to a few different problems.Firstly for whatever reason they may decide to leave the egg before fully absorbing the yolk sack still with the umbilical attached,something that should be avoided at all costs. _*I have never seen a hatchling crawl out of the egg with the umbilical cord still attached to the yolk. Maybe you should go and look at the following link about egg formation and egg structure before we continue to give uninformed opinions.*

Egg incubation: its effects on ... - Google Books


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## Nicole74 (Nov 13, 2009)

great thread with pictures i have never seen before.. Thanks for sharing.

I cant wait to see the next updated photo.

Good Luck with it all..


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## redbellybite (Nov 13, 2009)

Must say this is getting really interesting ...so many different opinions ...it all boils down in the end to the 'proof is in the pudding' ..so once those babies are coming out then the reality of what has been done prior to hatching will come to crunchtime ...just keep putting up the pics ..very enthralling thread ...


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 13, 2009)

Kersten said:


> I think what Fay is asking is if the eggs are pipped in such a way, and the contents exposed, is the chance of bacterial exposure heightened?
> 
> As far as the sealed water only environment goes Fay, I wouldn't think that it would stop it completely given that water on it's own can still provide a breeding ground for bacteria.


 
I think you'll find Rams was answering her second question, which in turn answers her first.

To sum it up. Q1 - Yes it does and Q2 - no it doesn't. :lol:


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

Oh good lord JJ, you've hurt my brain....

I thought his answer was based on intact eggs, my mistake!


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## zulu (Nov 13, 2009)

*re These*

Why does everyone seem to judge experience according to how many pythons they can breed and breeding albinos is such a major success proving experience?They are just carpets after all and breeding carpets isn't exactly rocket science.I have also been told it's illegal to breed albinos but everyone or most that have them will breed them. << Browns
Your right there browns,hatching out carpets isnt rocket science they are easy easy like childrens and beardys,cant see what the fuss is about,as long as they get some oxygen theyll be alright,it seems a bit overkill IMO


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## $NaKe PiMp (Nov 13, 2009)

hey keeping and australian pythons ...great book, was all you needed,i wouldnt have been worried until after the average time betwen laying and hatching and candling the eggs to check development.but you learn by trial and error i guess, it is a facinating subject and probaly the most interesting part of the hobby is breeding and seeing what happens
good luck,there worth a few bob those little pythons


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## REDbiv (Nov 13, 2009)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> hey keeping and australian pythons ...great book, was all you needed,i wouldnt have been worried until after the average time betwen laying and hatching and candling the eggs to check development.but you learn by trial and error i guess, it is a facinating subject and probaly the most interesting part of the hobby is breeding and seeing what happens
> good luck,there worth a few bob those little pythons


 
X2
Bought this book on Wed for some "light" reading material on the plane home from Vic-WA. Heaps of pics, plenty of generic info with sections containing specific info for the different species


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Day 53: Almost all heads in correct position.
As promised new photos.





































Looking forward to tomorrow.


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## azn4114 (Nov 13, 2009)

sweeeeet...


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## Cuddly_pony (Nov 13, 2009)

Congrats CP.com.au
thanks for posting very interesting info and piccies I didnt even know what pipping was!!!
Lol
P.S. I can definately see some colour in the first pic top right hand corner


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Just for the record: Reptile eggs do not have umbilical cords.


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## KaaTom (Nov 13, 2009)

What awesome pics  thanks for sharing


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## lovey (Nov 13, 2009)

Cuddly_pony said:


> Congrats CP.com.au
> thanks for posting very interesting info and piccies I didnt even know what pipping was!!!
> Lol
> P.S. I can definately see some colour in the first pic top right hand corner



IMO the photos are totally different from "pipping". I would consider pipping to be a single incision made in the egg or possibly two in the form of a "V" shape, not the removal of a large portion of the shell. I think this is a great thread but we need to make sure that some members don't get the wrong idea. Just my two cents.

Cheers
Dean


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## Nagraj (Nov 13, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Just for the record: Reptile eggs do not have umbilical cords.





Developing reptile embryos definitely have umbilical cords. Usually they are retracted into the abdomen along with the remaining yolk shortly before hatching.


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Just for the record: Reptile eggs do not have umbilical cords.



While they may not have an umbilical cord in the same sense that a human does, they do have an umbilical cord.

If it's your opinion they don't, what do you call the link between the yolk and the snake?


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## jay76 (Nov 13, 2009)

They are looking great. I was just wondering why you were using vermiculite instead of water for the substrate in these containers. I thought the sims containers were designed to work best with water. Cheers Jarrod


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

The allantois and yolk are attached to the reptile embryo in reptiles. The allantois performs two very important functions for the embryo. It allows for gas exchange and removal of wastes. You should really read some of the link I posted Kersten, it explains it really well. An umbilical cords purpose is to eliminate metabolic waste from and supply the unborn mammal with nutrition from the mother. This link does not exist with reptile eggs. It is really handy to have a bit of reference material around the house and not just believe what you have been told. Or argue for arguments sake.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Jarrod: _I was just wondering why you were using vermiculite instead of water for the substrate in these containers. I thought the sims containers were designed to work best with water. Cheers Jarrod . _*Its simple, personal preference.*


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

True, the term allantois is used in reptiles, as an umbilical connection between parent and offspring doesn’t develop in the same way it does in mammals. Interestingly, at the earlier stages of mammalian development, they also possess an allantois, which as the embryo develops becomes an umbilical cord. However, the term umbilical cord is often used to refer to reptile eggs (including in scholarly settings) and not necessarily incorrectly, as dictionary definitions list an umbilical cord as something which is a necessary supportive or nurturing link. It is certainly one that people who haven’t the opportunity to read books such as the one you have recommended will be able to identify with.

As it happens we do have a fair bit of material "lying around" for reference. While I completely agree that it can be a bad thing to simply believe as you are told, I am also of the opinion that utilising the experience of people who have far more experience than myself is essential. Especially when you consider how the information which makes its way into books is generated....by the discoveries of experienced people!


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## jay76 (Nov 13, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Jarrod: _I was just wondering why you were using vermiculite instead of water for the substrate in these containers. I thought the sims containers were designed to work best with water. Cheers Jarrod . _*Its simple, personal preference.*



Cool. I have a mate that got some off you and he is using water and told me they are working great. Have you used any with plain water or all with vermiculite


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## BROWNS (Nov 13, 2009)

There's one decent close up pic of an albino head in the egg of the last pics posted and after looking very hard I can't see an egg tooth,I'm not saying there isn't one however I can't see one, is there any chance you can get a pic showing an egg tooth PLEASE?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

"In placental mammals, the allantois is part of and forms an axis for the development of the umbilical cord". The alantois does not become the umbilical cord. It is the axis from where the umbilical cord develops. We can go on the whole night like this. If you have the book "Incubation of reptile eggs" by Gunther Kohler. Do yourself a favour,go and find any reference to an umbilical cord. You learn about the alantois at high school.Did you have Biology at high school in grade 10 Kersten?


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

We could if we were petty, goodness.....we could even resort to childish insults! However, regardless of my innappropriate use of a word or two, the effect is much the same. I am happy to admit that the author of your book new well his subject. And indeed the word may be misused by us commoners! However, as it stands the term umbilical cord is happily used and understood by many a keeper.....such as poor uneducated louts like I who were too busy being miserably teenager-ish to bother with 10th grade biology


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Those snakes are still covered in a membrane called the amnion, you dont rupture that membrane. There are blood vesels covering the amnion. they will have egg teeth. I will take photos of each egg tooth once they emerge. The fluid i squeeze out that surrounds the hatchling is called the allantois. The allantois bulge,liquid from the kidneys flow into the allantois and this increases it size.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

At least i answered your question for once. I have never thought of you as a "poor uneducated louts" or a "Commoner". I think you are a more than worthy Adversary in a Good versus Evil, He-Man and Skeletor way! Its good to have somebody voice a good argument for once in proper English grammar.


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

Well gosh durn it Cletus I'm just so honoured hyuk hyuk hyuk.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Ok, be like that then!


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## Ramsayi (Nov 13, 2009)

Great way to take the thread off on a tangent lol.
So I used the word "umbilical" big deal.I chose that word because that's what most hobbyists term it.If I had used allantois instead not many would of known what it was.Regardless I still stand behind my reasoning as to not prematurely pipping eggs


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Can everybody just please stop thinking I am having a dig. Ramsayi that was not aimed at you. I said that because I knew Kersten would argue again. While we are giving the big answers to the big questions, why dont we teach people the right word for that part that gets rid of the Hatchlings waste and allow for gas exchange!


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## wranga (Nov 13, 2009)

off topic. but its APS, theres lots of serial argueers on this site.
give it a rest guys and enjoy this thread. maybe we all might learn something from someone else apart from arguing over a word that was used or a method that you dont agree with


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## Serpentes (Nov 13, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> While we are giving the big answers to the big questions, why dont we teach people the right word for that part that gets rid of the Hatchlings waste and allow for gas exchange!



It's unclear what 'part' you are referring to because there are so many involved in respiration and post-prandial elimination in hatchling reptiles. The external opening for voiding excreta is the cloaca. The external opening for respiratory exchange is the nostril.

If your 'hatchling' only has one part, then it is pooing where it eats, which one should never do.

If you want a good book on reptile incubation, look up Deeming and Ferguson.


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## wranga (Nov 13, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Ahhh Wranga, normally I'd agree, damned argumentative souls! But if the threadstarter is happy to post comments in aid of starting a verbal stoush and then professes to enjoy it I guess there isn't really harm in it, is there? :lol:


 it gets boring and spoils the thread


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## Kersten (Nov 13, 2009)

You're right sometimes it does!


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## Pythons Rule (Nov 13, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> There's one decent close up pic of an albino head in the egg of the last pics posted and after looking very hard I can't see an egg tooth,I'm not saying there isn't one however I can't see one, is there any chance you can get a pic showing an egg tooth PLEASE?



in the pic's I posted, you can see a tiny pointed object on the second pic on the bottom lip of the hatchy. I would say one with an egg tooth would have one like shown in this picture. there not the same type of python but I am assuming that all hatchies with, would appear similar with this tiny little spike.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 13, 2009)

Please close this thread moderators. It's clear to me that it's a waste of time.


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## SamNabz (Nov 13, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Each to his own I guess. I pip, have never lost a hatchling. I have a very small surgical scissor, if you have steady hands and work gently there is very little chance of cutting through veins. After 51 days at 31.5 degrees celcius the eggs are ready. All they have to do now is crawl out, and they are good to go.



I know this is a quote from Page 1 but i just finished reading this thread and was wondering if you had the patience to sit there and do this to those eggs...i don't understand why you couldn't have used this "virtue" and waited the usual 58 days (7 days more than you did) for them to start pipping...?

Over-all pretty full on thread this has become, always interesting to see other peoples thoughts and methods.


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## =bECS= (Nov 14, 2009)

Kersten said:


> I think what Fay is asking is if the eggs are pipped in such a way, and the contents exposed, is the chance of bacterial exposure heightened?
> 
> As far as the sealed water only environment goes Fay, I wouldn't think that it would stop it completely given that water on it's own can still provide a breeding ground for bacteria.



Im curious regarding this......
If CP.c.a is opening the tub to take pics, prod them a little to check for movement etc, wouldn't that allow for bacteria to get in.

Also, along the same lines, is it just me, or can anyone else see parts of the 'yolk' looking like its starting to dry out a little?
The eggs look to me to be a bit more drier too.

Im not looking for an argument, just stating my opinion based on the pics given.

Would have been interesting to see how the eggs would have gone at full term untampered considering its the first time the S.I.M has been used on pythons though 
Also Vermiculite has been used as a part of the meduim, even though its supposed to be just water according to the sales pitch.
It would have been nice to see full results from this method, i guess someone will test the S.I.M incubation according to the way its marketed soon enough.


Thanks for sharing though....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

Nobody needs to worry anymore. I will keep these things to myself from now on. You did it kersten. Well done.


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## wranga (Nov 14, 2009)

as usual another thread thats turned to ****. to many experts that couldnt keep an open mind and wait and see how this turned out before commenting


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## yommy (Nov 14, 2009)

S.I.M works great to full term, and a great container with adjustable areas to stop the eggs rolling. 
As for the egg being piped to early or not who cares, her eggs, her choice. Take a look at Brian Barnetts story on the herp trader on his childreni egg hatching. The are designed to hatch. 
I split an egg seperating it from the clump this season, placed medi-tap over the crack, leaked a little but still hatched perfectly fine amd it was easy to pip too 

Good luck with em CPca


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## Cuddly_pony (Nov 14, 2009)

Its a shame the thread has been ruined it was soooo interesting to see and a first for me!!!!
Even though it didnt work out Carpet.com.au I am glad you posted this thread I learnt a LOT about this topic and its awesome to see inside an egg


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## GreggMadden (Nov 14, 2009)

serpenttongue said:


> Artificially incubated eggs remain in an environment (the egg container) of constant warmth and humidity. This allows the egg shells to remain as soft as they were the day they were laid.


 This is odd because this is not the case with pythons that are allowed to maternaly incubate in captivity... I would also think in the wild a female would find a place to lay that has a pretty consistant temperature and humidity level... 

I seriously doubt that the egg shell would be any "tougher" or "softer" either way... Honestly, I think that is just an unproven theory with no literature to back it up....

And the reason I asked Kersten the questions I did was because she seems to have alot to say for someone not bringing any info to the so called table...

I am not sure what kind of breeder has eggs and does not have data recorded... And why would you not share data??? You do not need to be a "professional" to do so.... Every bit of data is useful to help further our hobby...

It seriously sounds as if a select couple of people are very jealous of the success....


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## shax (Nov 14, 2009)

I as Im sure the majority following this thread want to see you succeed 100% with these eggs. In my opinion it would be valuable information to the community as a whole not matter what the outcome now and I don't think you should feel any judgment by a minority population

Best wishes


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## wranga (Nov 14, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> This is odd because this is not the case with pythons that are allowed to maternaly incubate in captivity... I would also think in the wild a female would find a place to lay that has a pretty consistant temperature and humidity level...
> 
> I seriously doubt that the egg shell would be any "tougher" or "softer" either way... Honestly, I think that is just an unproven theory with no literature to back it up....
> 
> ...


 from what i have seen of maternal incubation the shell becomes hard and leathery. im guessing this is caused by a lack of humidity close to the eggs


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## GreggMadden (Nov 14, 2009)

wranga said:


> from what i have seen of maternal incubation the shell becomes hard and leathery. im guessing this is caused by a lack of humidity close to the eggs


Reptile eggs will toughen up more as they develop no matter how they are being incubated... The will start to soften right around hatch time...


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## GreggMadden (Nov 14, 2009)

Serpentes said:


> It's unclear what 'part' you are referring to because there are so many involved in respiration and post-prandial elimination in hatchling reptiles. The external opening for voiding excreta is the cloaca. The external opening for respiratory exchange is the nostril.
> 
> If your 'hatchling' only has one part, then it is pooing where it eats, which one should never do.
> .


 
Well as true as this statement is when the animal is OUT of the egg, the mechanics of exchanging gases, taking in nutrients and expelling waste is TOTALY different while inside the egg...

I kinda hope you were kidding with that statement???


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## GreggMadden (Nov 14, 2009)

shax said:


> I as Im sure the majority following this thread want to see you succeed 100% with these eggs. In my opinion it would be valuable information to the community as a whole not matter what the outcome now and I don't think you should feel any judgment by a minority population
> 
> Best wishes


 
Yeah, but all it takes is one turd in the pool to ruin everyones day of swimming... In this case there were like 2 or 3 turds...


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## shax (Nov 14, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Yeah, but all it takes is one turd in the pool to ruin everyones day of swimming... In this case there were like 2 or 3 turds...



Can always be cleaned and now one remembers in the morning


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## GreggMadden (Nov 14, 2009)

Ishah said:


> Oh LOL! :lol:
> 
> When the going gets tough, the tough get going huh?
> 
> In the most recent pics you posted... whats that "film-like" substance... It looks like dust or something has settled on the membrane thingo (omg not the "membrane thingo" everyone knows its the amnionic membrane doo-hicky thing :lol: ) Would that dust-like substance be harmful in potentially allowing/harboring bacteria to grow/introducing bacteria and other nasties to potentially penetrate and attack the "un-hatched" snake???


 
Well if you knew anything other than reptile basics, you would know that at this point, the snake already has a strong immune system....

But even more obvious is the fact that egg shells are PORUS.... This means that "nasties" as you call them, can get to the embryo even if the shell was not removed... If you want to sound like you know what you are talking about, you should probably know what you are talking about...

What a waste of a good thread... It always seems to be the usual suspects that kill good threads like this...


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## GreggMadden (Nov 14, 2009)

Kersten said:


> So let me get this straight......CPca, in her own words, posted something to generate an argument, then she said that she enjoyed the verbal back and forth....now it's a problem. That's just way too much back and forth for me. If you didn't want someone to disagree with you, why go out of your way to make it happen and then get annoyed when things go down exactly as you'd planned?


 
Whats the point of going back and forth on a thread that is educational, interesting and cool??? Now this may be a snap judgment, but you seem to be very argumentative at times when it is clearly not needed... I know I should not judge but I am only human and thats what I have gotten from most of your posts... It is non-productive in the way you do it...



Kersten said:


> Greg, surprising as it may be to you....someone expressing a difference of opinion, or questioning the reason behind the methods used here is not something to be instantly arributed to jealousy. If something was being bred which I wanted, perhaps. If I was unsuccessful in breeding perhaps. But neither of those circumstances are at play here and all questions asked, and observations made were valid. They were simply different to yours and to CPcas. That is the joy in forums. You get to see the opinions of others.


 I have no issue with difference in opinion... Personally I have never piped an egg but I will never say Nicole is wrong for doing so... She is obviously an experienced breeder and has her reasons for doing what she does... And hey, obviously it works well for her...



Kersten said:


> I've already given some of my reasons for not publishing detailed accounts of my own breeding efforts - that being that I don't speak on the subject wihth authority (hence also my questions), here is one more....I am not interested in promoting myself through this forum as a breeder. I think Kris has posted a pic or two of a couple of our breeding pairs, but that was as an aside in a thread about jungles, not about breeding per se. I am sure this will not be enough to convince you, but at least I've made an effort. I've no doubt you'll continue to hawk the notion that I'm just a jeaolus wannabe, and that's fine with me given that I'm not here to make a buck.


Now here is where I believe you and I differ a lot... You have given me your reason and I have accepted your reason... I have no reason to "hawk" on about anything... What gets me is the fact that Nicole gave her reasons for cutting the eggs open and that you and a couple of others did not accept that as an answer... It was her reason for doing what she did, and that should be enough... All you did was spout your opinion as fact...


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## GreggMadden (Nov 14, 2009)

Where to start!!!!


Ishah said:


> Secondly, are you infact saying/implying that NO bacteria or other "nasties" no matter how potent and detrimental they may be... i.e. OPMV or any other form of virus, immunovirus, bacteria etc can ever harm the unhatched snake more readily because it has a strong immune system???


Actually I was implying that the cut eggs are at no more risk than uncut ones to being infected by microscopic bateria and viruses... Being that egg shells are porous, the "nasties" will not be stopped by the outer shell anyway... It is the immune system that stops bacterial and viral infection for the most part...



Ishah said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but even the most healthy organism/animal, with an impeccable immune system can still fall ill and die... What about E. coli, Salmonella, any of those random bacteria that so readily jump on things and cause things to go off and harm things especially in that temperature range, it is prime conditions and temperature for those bacteria to flourish! i.e. 30+ degrees or whatever, a moist environment, humid, and not to mention, multitudes of FOOD for such tiny bacteria to thrive on! NO WAY! It cant possibly multiply to such magnitudes to EVER compromise the health of the unhatched snake!
> What about runts? There's one in every clutch, they are notorious for being weaker than the average and being more immuno-supressed than the rest... Are you saying that just because it's fully developed or close to, that it can't fall sick? When infact the main barrier preventing or "slowing down penetration of" the bacteria has been removed? Yes the egg is POROUS (nice spelling btw, for such an educated being  that you so aptly claim to be reading literature etc), But its still a hell of a lot more protection than being fully exposed! And it makes it a hell of a lot easier for nasties to attack! Its like... Here, try and crash tackle me, but wait... instead of running and hiding... I'm going to just stand here and let you hit me at full force! COME ON!!!


 
Firstly you should try breaking up your sentences a bit so peoples eyes dont get tired from reading your thought process...

What does E. coli, runts and my spelling error have to do with egg piping???



Ishah said:


> Don't be so ignorant! Anyone knows that the more layers of protection you take away, the higher the risk of infection and disease etc there is! No matter how savvy the immune system is... there are always drastically increased risks! Which was my point... Thanks for taking it off on a tangeant...


In this case, you are wrong... Look at it like this... Latex condoms reduce the risk of STDs, lamb skin condoms do not... Why??? Because they have microscopic natural porous that bacteria and viruses can get through...



Ishah said:


> Nice try at trying to imply I'm stupid and completely uneducated...


 I think you have done a fine job of doing that yourself...


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## JoshMVG (Nov 14, 2009)

This thread was very interesting...
Until it was flooded with the drool of sleep deprived trouble makers


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## Jason (Nov 14, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Where to start!!!!
> Actually I was implying that the cut eggs are at no more risk than uncut ones to being infected by microscopic bateria and viruses... Being that egg shells are porous, the "nasties" will not be stopped by the outer shell anyway... It is the immune system that stops bacterial and viral infection for the most part...



without knowing the actual size of the pores in the egg shell... the pore size needed for a water molecule to move through the shell would be rediculously smaller then that needed for a bacteria to move through.... internally, eggs should be sterile. so yes the egg shells are porous, but the 'nasties' would be stopped... hence opening the eggs does allow potential 'nasties' access. the immune system of a developing snakes would be completely immuno naive.


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## Kyro (Nov 14, 2009)

Great thread to show just how bitchy us females can be, thanks fo trashing the thread & just for the record I don't think any of us give a **** what your personal opinions are regarding nicoles incubation technique


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## Slateman (Nov 14, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Kersten,
> Why not post some of your albino carpets hatching??? Do you have any eggs incubating right now that you can collect data from and share it with all of us???



i second that.
It would be great for other members if you share your hatching experiance with them in same way like owner of this topic.


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## Kersten (Nov 14, 2009)

Actually Slateman that's not such a bad idea. Perhaps we could open the floor to every albino breeder to share their incubation stories which differ to this one? I've already pointed out I don't breed them....but I'm betting there are several members here who've had success with their methods as well and would like to share?! It's good to see that there's interest in exploring differing methods. Perhaps people won't be keen to join in though if they feel any difference of opinion will be seen as sour grapes? Let's wait and see hey....


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 14, 2009)

Kyro said:


> Great thread to show just how bitchy us females can be, thanks fo trashing the thread & just for the record I don't think any of us give a **** what your personal opinions are regarding nicoles incubation tequnique


I agree with this. 
Thanks for sharing Nicole, and what you do with your own eggs is your choice. 
I dont think Nicole was saying this is the best way to go,
but it works for these guys so why knock it. 
This has been a very educational thread in more ways than one.
Put me down for a s.i.m to
Cheers
PS, I was going to show the Mrs the pics of your work Nicole but they are all deleted now.


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## Christopher (Nov 14, 2009)

This had the potential to be a great thread... It seems like nothing could be posted without it being immediately disputed in a passive aggressive manner. I'm not sure what the motivations of the questioners were, but it certainly wasnt just general interest in the technique.
I think the owner of the thread should be commended for coming out and showing their methods, which clearly work for them and have some merit, and for answering many of the better posed questions in a respectable manner.
I feel that some of the questions asked and some of the potential problems raised by the more experienced breeders were helpful, while others were just plain annoying to sift through.


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## redbellybite (Nov 14, 2009)

And I was only telling my hubby to check this out,put it up this morning and its gone off like a fart in a jar  ... I was looking forward to following the hatchies in progress.....


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## ad (Nov 14, 2009)

I cant see why all the dummy spitting,

CP has made some claims that a lot of us question, she is working from a book and not personal experience, 
She is also the sole aus. distributor for a product she is claiming is superior - as she also thinks her pipping techniques are. The other person Gregg is the South African manufacturer of the product they are selling,

Kersten is asking questions a lot of us are interested in the response, we are not all going to ask the same question are we, but I think they need asking.
Maybe if answered with less hostility the thread would have taken a different direction?

A pity the pics have been taken dowm, they were interesting,
Cheers
Adam


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

All I wanted to do was share this unique experience. It is clear that there are some who has an issue with me and not so much my methods. Good luck to all in this season no matter how you handle your eggs, pip or no pip!
Cheers
Nicole


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## azn4114 (Nov 14, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> I was looking forward to following the hatchies in progress.....


 me too


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## redbellybite (Nov 14, 2009)

So if I may ask .will you be putting up the progress of the hatchies for the ones that are interested in watching it develop Nicole?...hence MYSELF and a few others no doubt.........


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## Scleropages (Nov 14, 2009)

Wow this turned into a biatch fight.. who cares what some one does to there own eggs?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

Thats exactly what Kersten and her little mates wanted. they were quite good at what they did. I will acknowledge that, they should feel nice and warm and fuzzy inside knowing they achieved the outcome they wanted; for nobody else to see the progression. People tend to turn hostile when their techniques are criticised and questioned from the word go. I might start a page on my website, but it might take a few days to set up. I will keep you all informed.


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## azn4114 (Nov 14, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I might start a page on my website, but it might take a few days to set up. I will keep you all informed.


 cool,thanks


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## snake_boy (Nov 14, 2009)

my god this thread has gone bad. i think its quite amazing what CP is doing, and personally i think its a good idea. good luck CP.
Cheers.
Cal


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## gozz (Nov 14, 2009)

I think the thread is going fine;
All just need to chill, as we all have different
veiws etc, Its good to see different ways 
that other people do things, very educational, The only true
way to learn is not by reading books but
life experiences cheers 
great thread


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

This is where I bow out now. 
Thanks for all of those who sent me PM of support. I do appreciate it.


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## Renagade (Nov 14, 2009)

Well.... good luck with them, there are more people here that would love to see the results then is worth having a sook about. what a shame.
Ren


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## torry666 (Nov 14, 2009)

Yep thanks for making it personal people, wonder if half of you talk to people face to face like you type when on here. Was an interesting thread.....pity.


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## itbites (Nov 14, 2009)

Certainly was a interesting thread...

Hopefully get to see them progress on the web site instead!

It would be a shame to not continue on with the updates.


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## Hetty (Nov 14, 2009)

Oh, come of it guys. People were asking genuine questions, it's not their fault that "Carpetpythons.com.au" was offended so easily. Putting something on an open forum _usually_ means you want to hear people's opinions and have a discussion, the original poster didn't want that (they just wanted praise by the looks), and as such shouldn't have posted in the first place.


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## TahneeMaree (Nov 14, 2009)

Just_Joshin said:


> I think the reason people question the methods is the fact that although they own the eggs and can do as they please...it's the snakes within which will end up in the hands of OTHER people, being sold off. Hence the concern for potentially hatching out a weak or genetically comprised animal that may have otherwise died in the egg for reasons unknown.



True, BUT I see no problem with it if the new owners are informed of the pipping... it comes down to supply and demand, if people are happy to purchase a snake that has been pipped then let them...
ALSO... What of the dog breeds (typically ones with the larger heads, Pugs for example) that are prone to needing C-Sections because their bodies are too modified to give birth naturally all the time? Should we go and hound these breeders? Should these puppies and the mothers be left to die? We also save other animals from the natural odds...

I do not see much of a difference...


Keep me posted on their progress CarpetPythons...


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## Serpentes (Nov 14, 2009)

TahneeMaree said:


> What of the dog breeds (typically ones with the larger heads, Pugs for example) that are prone to needing C-Sections because their bodies are too modified to give birth naturally all the time? Should we go and hound these breeders? Should these puppies and the mothers be left to die? We also save other animals from the natural odds...
> 
> I do not see much of a difference...



The difference lies in the ideology and epistemology of the individual. Some people who keep reptiles prefer animals which represent natural reptile populations. Some people prefer animals selectively bred for many generations to look different from the regular, naturally presenting specimens. Others like both types.

It is important to dignify others with the right to make their own decisions about what reptile types they would like to keep. Although I hold my own, rather staunch views on this matter, I find it degrading to berate the choice of another keeper. 

What matters is that OP has demonstrated great husbandry skill in the assisted hatching of these snakes, irrespective of their type. Those who have personally attempted such a task will understand the steadiness of mind and hand required to do conduct the surgical operation properly.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 14, 2009)

TahneeMaree said:


> True, BUT I see no problem with it if the new owners are informed of the pipping... it comes down to supply and demand, if people are happy to purchase a snake that has been pipped then let them...
> ALSO... What of the dog breeds (typically ones with the larger heads, Pugs for example) that are prone to needing C-Sections because their bodies are too modified to give birth naturally all the time? Should we go and hound these breeders? Should these puppies and the mothers be left to die? We also save other animals from the natural odds...
> 
> I do not see much of a difference...
> ...


 
I think you'll find pugs have been CREATED. They are not a naturally occuring breed, like virtually every species of dog in existence today. Unfortunately...many "purebred" dogs suffer from health issues due to their relatively small genetic diveristy and low MHC. Also...purebred species are usually accompanied by papers with a detailed family history, often dating back many generations.

Also, with mammalian births, the reason we intervene is because it would result in the death of not only the offspring but mother as well. This is not the case with snake eggs as they have already left the mother. If you were comparing it to removing eggs from an egg bound mother, then the comparison would make more sense and i have no problems with people doing that.

For the record, i don't condone the breeding of any animal that requires surgery to successfully birth.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks Moderators. I will behave myself from now on. I apologise to site members for losing my head, sort of.
I will post the pictures again. I have observed something really interesting and I can back track it to the first time I pipped the eggs. I will ad the pictures first and then ask the question. I will start with day 51 and then label as I go.
I will start with this picture, its an eg that started to have grey spots on it at around day 30. It eventually started to smell so I opened it. Dead embryo at day 30.





Day 51: I cut the eggs 15 mins before these pics were taken. Notice anything funny? I realised it only yesterday.
















Day 52: Heads up: Can you see the problem yet?




















Day 53: Heads still moving. One of the embryos does not have something that the rest have?




































One more interesting observation that I had at day 51 and day 52 is that the males hemipenes are not inverted. They are outside the body. They have inverted them and I am asuming between day 52 and 53. 

If you look carefully, one of the eggs did not have veins on the exposed surface like the rest. Last night when I gently probed them on did not move and was stiff. This has never happened before so i had a look through the series of pictures. That one hatchling was dead on day 51 when I pipped them. Now I have learned something new too. I observed what i usually would observe with an egg candler. Dead eggs have very feint or no visible veins. The hatchlng would have still moved if i touched it seeing that the membrane they sit in is very gelatinous. I pulled the hatchling out and it was evident that it had some deformities. It was also slightly smaller than the rest. 

I had a look tonight and they have not changed positions much. I have replaced the vermiculite with water to minimise the possibility of bacterial infection as well as to raise humidity in the egg incubation tub. They must be metabolising the youlk quite effectively at the moment as i have noticed a rise in temperature in the tub of about 1 Degree Celsius. The hightened humidity should aid in their metabolic needs as its metabolism would be requiring a lot of water at the moment. 

I will post more pics later.

I do not want praise for this series of photos as mentioned before. I would like people to see what I see. Who ever heard of sharing in the reptile hobby hey???


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## Greenmad (Nov 14, 2009)

very nice this is a very interesting thread thank you


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## pythons73 (Nov 14, 2009)

The first lot of photos of day 53,the 1st photo on row 3 hasnt any veins...So i gather thats the dead one],correct me if im wrong].Very interesting photos i must say,educational also.You always hear of the good things on public forums,Im pleased you have shared your experience,but im not saying i would do the same....Thanx again Carpetpythons......................MARK


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 14, 2009)

Cool photo Nicole, interesting to see. One question.....the one that you said was dead on day 51 (no veins present) appears to have move and maybe even coloured up a bit more (patterning appears more distinct/vibrant) by day 53. One part of the snake (near the top of the egg) has definately moved by day 53 as ventral scales are now present. Was the movement from when you poked them with a probe perhaps?? Interesting all the same!!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

Just Joshin: Correct. Of course you should never tempt fate by saying it has never happened before. Thats just like kicking fate in the head. I have never taken photos of pipping before. The camera seems to pick up a grainy substance on the membrane around the embryo (amnion). I am assuming that this might be bacterial growth as it would be similar to culturing in a petri dish. Eggs do however have immunty to these little pathogens. It could just be that it might just be the digital camera picking up slight inconsistencies in the membrane. It would be interesting to see how this develops. I honestly do not believe that the hatchling was alive when i piped it. 

The first sign that an egg is deteriorating is the clear constriction of the veins when candled. When i pulled the hatchling out, the link between the youlk and the hatchling was see through. I have decided to pip the next batch of eggs at day 55 from now on. I learn and adjust, that is the only thing I can control. The worst thing to do is not learn something out of this incident, and make the same mistake again. The good thing about this thread is that it has prompted me to read up as much as i can about embryo development in reptiles. 

Serpentes: Thanks for advising me about that reading material.

Ramsayi: Thanks for the 58 day advice. Years ago I spoke to a well known breeder in adelaide that said he pips at 51 days. I have always just been pipping them at 51 days. 

It is interesting however and now it is documented on the internet for future reference. I might even write something up after this process has been completed. I am sure there is lots to learn out of it.


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## reptilerob (Nov 14, 2009)

WOW how amazing this has been to read. Apart from the bitching and fighting, this has been an amazing thread to read and learn from. I cant believe how opinionated some people can be!!!
I for one am glad you posted the story and photos, thanks for doing so. Dumbass people like me can learn a lot from people such as yourself.:lol::lol:


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## FAY (Nov 14, 2009)

That first pic Nicole, that died at 30 days...I thought it was a bird??


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

Its interesting to note that all animals embryological development follows the same route. This is what a lot of evolution theory is based on. Different hormones are secreted at different stages in the process. These hormones affect everything in our development in combination with our gene sequences. So at a few weeks most Chordates (back boned animals) look similar in appearance. I am a bit rusty in this theory as i studied it quite a few years ago.

There are others on here like Sdaji or Serpentes that might be able to correct or ad to this.


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## kidsheart (Nov 14, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> That first pic Nicole, that died at 30 days...I thought it was a bird??


 
yep definatly an emu... any idea how that got in there?

great thread by the way... on the most part ..


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## wranga (Nov 14, 2009)

thanks Nicole. great to see this thread back on track. looking forward to your continuing up-dates


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## BROWNS (Nov 14, 2009)

Yeah it looks very much like a bird doesn't it!Apparently reptiles and birds are closely related in some way in the chain of evolution.

CC.a the best closeup pic of one egg where there's a good view of a head it's hard to tell if there's an egg tooth from the best closeup pic.Can you yourself see if it has an egg tooth or not being that you have a better view seeing it in person than we have from the pics?


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## matt123 (Nov 14, 2009)

hey nicole here is a well know breeder in usa that pips his eggs aswell might have some interesting stuff on there aswell [video=youtube;gzHqMWgUrCs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzHqMWgUrCs[/video]


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## Serpentes (Nov 14, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Its interesting to note that all animals embryological development follows the same route. This is what a lot of evolution theory is based on. Different hormones are secreted at different stages in the process. These hormones affect everything in our development in combination with our gene sequences. So at a few weeks most Chordates (back boned animals) look similar in appearance. I am a bit rusty in this theory as i studied it quite a few years ago.
> 
> There are others on here like Sdaji or Serpentes that might be able to correct or ad to this.



I'm fairly exposed to this type of research at present. The answer is that we don't know. The evolution of live-bearing from egg-laying is a complex matter, and the physiology is more complicated. You'll be pleased to know that Australian skinks form the backbone of contemporary research into the evolution of viviparity. At present it's all about occludin-5, uterine epithelia, tight junctions and calcium channels. If you're really, really interested you could look up some research by Professor Michael B. Thompson, an all-round top bloke.

Anyway this is sounding wayyyyy too much like work for my liking :lol:


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 14, 2009)

I have tried to take photos really close. My camera just does not focus. They will have egg teeth when they hatch. I will take photos for you Browns. I want to try and disturb them a little less. I cut the window a little bigger tonight to make photographs easier.


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## -Matt- (Nov 14, 2009)

This thread is extremely interesting, definetly what Id like to see more of on forums. It has really opened my eyes up to the different methods that breeders use, well done on sharing publicly your methods Nicole...best of luck with the final stages.

That first photo really does show the close relationship between birds and reptiles...incredible.


Matt.


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## Slateman (Nov 14, 2009)

Thank you Nicole for continuation in this topic presented by photo's.
This topic is so interesting. 

I am sorry that some members have bad manners in the way they try to push personal opinion. This topic is classic example how they can ruin interesting topic.
I feel sorry for moderators some times. Hard job to please all members.


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## learner74 (Nov 15, 2009)

azn4114 said:


> me too


me to!


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## redbellybite (Nov 15, 2009)

Well I am glad the pics are back up ,will be interesting to follow these guys ...
So C.P.c.au ....how many from that clutch have you lost so far...only two?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

No, the other egg is out of another clutch. I got 9 good and 3 slugs out of this female. She is 4 years old an it was her first clutch. She also probes 12 scales deep on both sides,Thus the reason she is only breeding at 4. She was sold to us as male. I have heard there has been a few issues when sexing these snakes. An endoscopy confirmed her sex.


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## wranga (Nov 15, 2009)

wow 12 scales and female. has anyone else had females probe this deep


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## Kyro (Nov 15, 2009)

I have a female coastal that probed 11 both sides
That's the spirit nicole


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## Albs (Nov 15, 2009)

Yes one of my females also probes 12 scales deep. She is 5 years old and this is her first clutch. She was also sold to me as a male, funnily enough I didn't have much luck putting her over my female for the last couple of years!! At least she got to grow a bit bigger and get plenty of condition. She had 18eggs with 1 slug. I have been told that to get the most accurate results when sexing albino hatchies that it is best to do it in the first 24hrs. I have no idea why this is!


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## Serpentes (Nov 15, 2009)

Sexing within the first 24 hours means manual eversion of hemipenes, NOT probing! The hemipenal muscles aren't working very well immediately after hatching, so you can gently pop them out. This is not recommended for many species though, which are too delicate for the procedure. This even can be done on tiny hatchling skinks under a microscope by experienced persons!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

Day 54 and 55: 
Not much to report. They are starting to move a lot. Their pupils are constricting and dilating a lot more. Here are the pics. I am starting with day 54 pics and rolling them into day 55.

















Day 55:

































Enjoy!


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## rash (Nov 15, 2009)

mate, those pics are amazing, thanks heaps for sharing!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

I cut the egg a little neater yeasterday. Its amazing to see that the veins attached to the inside of the shell has not collapsed or deteriorated. So the hatchling is still using these little veins to absorb oxygen through the shell. The shell have however become brittle and dry since I cut it. Very inteesting indeed. I guess i am paying a lot more attention than previous years, seeing that i want to keep you guys updated about everything that is happening.


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## Scleropages (Nov 15, 2009)

Creapy pics , Almost makes me want to get an albino darwin!


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## blakehose (Nov 15, 2009)

the 3rd and 4th last photo's are great, that one is looking almost ready to go !


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## redbellybite (Nov 15, 2009)

very interesting ...am really hoping all goes well for these young ones ...get a bit more attached to threads like this as you watch to see what is happening ...


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## Scleropages (Nov 15, 2009)

I'll add I don't even like piping my own eggs after a few have poked their heads out , but each to there own.
Its weird to see , and I am sure if I was breeding anything worth more than $2. I would prob pip them just incase 

Thanks for puting the pics back up.


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## Duke (Nov 15, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> So the hatchling is still using these little veins to absorb oxygen through the shell.


The laws of physics say that this is not happening 
The oxygen will be passing through the bare membrane now, not the shell.



CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> The shell have however become brittle and dry since I cut it.


Similar to my comment above. There is no permeation pressure for gasses and liquids to pass through the egg shell.

Normally the solid egg shell is in a constant state of transfer of gasses, and so it can maintain it's rigid (e.g. Chicken) or soft (bearded dragon eggs) structure.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

And why would blood vessels stay alive on the egg shell? Their purpose is to oxygenate the blood?


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## Duke (Nov 15, 2009)

Hmm. I'll need to brush up on my biology here.
Are the veins anchored onto the shell? Since there's no capillaries to act as sponges in oxygen absorption, the oxygen molecules simply permeate through the shell and ultimately the embryonic sac.


Also I think it's time that every got a refresher of what Brian Barnett achieved way back in 1979
Captive breeding and a novel egg incubation technique of the Childrens Python Liasis childreni


*EDIT* and in answer to our question about the blood vessels staying alive, well it'll be against the developing snakes' interests to shut down the vessels. You'll get a breakdown of tissue, adding more waste to the system.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

The blood vessels are attached to the shell and they are bright red. The veins are also nice and thick. As the movement of gasses depend on high and low potentials I would suspect that oxygen and carbon dioxide will exchange regardless of the presence of a porous shell. High oxygen levels outside the egg would allow for movement of oxygen into the blood that has a lower concentration of oxygen and vice versa for carbon dioxide.


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## Duke (Nov 15, 2009)

But that's my point. The gas would pass through the exposed area, and no longer through the egg shell.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

The blood vessels are attached to the shell and they are bright red. The veins are also nice and thick. As the movement of gasses depend on high and low potentials I would suspect that oxygen and carbon dioxide will exchange regardless of the presence of a porous shell. High oxygen levels outside the egg would allow for movement of oxygen into the blood that has a lower concentration of oxygen and vice versa for carbon dioxide. I have also done some Reading about the protective nature of the albumin and it's protective properties in regards to the embryo. Bacteria and micro organisms can not grow on the albumin as it prevents infection by creating a hostile environment for microorganisms and by acting as a microbicide ( Kohler, 2005).


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok, thanks for raising that point. I only thought about that afterwards. The blood vessels can absorb oxygen from inside the egg now. Thanks for correcting me.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 15, 2009)

I must have hit post before I finished my post by accident.


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## Pineapplekitten (Nov 15, 2009)

I love this thread.. i check on it every day!! the pics are amazing and i love seeing the development of the lil fellas..

Im so glad you posted, im learning so much.. its awesome!!


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## Ramsayi (Nov 15, 2009)

...


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## mpeel (Nov 15, 2009)

this is a mad thread hope the little guys get out ok 

p.s great bit of marketing


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## zobo (Nov 15, 2009)

I have a clutch of Darwins incubating at 31 degrees and they have just hit day 62 and not one has pipped yet. Same as last year.

I cut a slit in the eggs after the first one pips itself as I think mother nature knows best and evolution has done its job for thousands of years.

each to their own I guess, 

I found it interesting when people started comparing humans to pythons....never seen that one before  usually it is dogs vs snakes (in the genetics debates)

j


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## moosenoose (Nov 15, 2009)

zobo said:


> I have a clutch of Darwins incubating at 31 degrees and they have just hit day 62 and not one has pipped yet. Same as last year.
> 
> I cut a slit in the eggs after the first one pips itself as I think mother nature knows best and evolution has done its job for thousands of years.
> 
> ...



Agreed!

I'm also going to say each to their own, but I do find it incredibly funny how human beings tamper with things that have worked for millions of years. And when you think about it there can be no argument to defend it. If you're having trouble with eggs hatching or whatever, there is something amiss. Surely??


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## zulu (Nov 15, 2009)

zobo said:


> I have a clutch of Darwins incubating at 31 degrees and they have just hit day 62 and not one has pipped yet. Same as last year.
> 
> I cut a slit in the eggs after the first one pips itself as I think mother nature knows best and evolution has done its job for thousands of years.
> 
> ...



Zobo,letting the snakes hatch themselves is kind of boring,your wittnessing topgun ER stuff here,reckon they could take a dump and write a book about it,anything can hatch out but this is hatching out in style (if it works )


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## zulu (Nov 15, 2009)

juliedamian said:


> I love this thread.. i check on it every day!! the pics are amazing and i love seeing the development of the lil fellas..
> 
> Im so glad you posted, im learning so much.. its awesome!!



Your learning how to make a mountain out of a mole hill,like giving every pregnant woman a caesarian section


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## BROWNS (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm glad you put up that link to what Brian Barnett had done with that egg which I mentioned earlier on in the thread and shows this is nothing new however it is an interesting thread.

I haven't been able to spot any egg teeth does anyone know at what stage of developement the egg tooth can be seen?Usually when one hatchling emerges from it's egg it stimulates the rest to hatch but not always.I had one jungle egg not hatch last season and when I cut it open the hatchy was fully formed with an egg tooth and coloured up but didn't hatch,I wonder if it didn't hatch because it was week or just not meant to be and if I'd have pipped it would it have hatched??


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## firedream (Nov 15, 2009)

by keeping wild animals we as humans are already tampering with things. I am glad we do tamper because i enjoy keeping snakes. but we can't just decide that piping is tampering when basiclly everything we do with our pet snakes is. we tamper with the temp we tamper with humidity, we tamper to take the eggs to the incubator, we tamper when sexing snakes, the list is endless. it doesn't matter who agrees with this and who doesn't we should all read, learn and enjoy this thread. thanks again for the informative thread cp.com.au. look forward to additional pics.


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## gunny (Nov 15, 2009)

well said firedream there is nothing natural about keeping animals in enclosures and usually very far from they're origin. but i too am glad we do. apart from the usual know it alls its a great thread and thank you for having the courage to post it, many wouldn't. Dont think i could do that to my own eggs though lol.


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## python_dan89 (Nov 16, 2009)

love the pics any more?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 16, 2009)

Zobo: I would like to see how you react when you have a clutch that does not hatch one day. I wonder if you will pip or not?

Browns: it's exactly a question like "when does the egg tooth develop?", that can be answered by a thread like this. 

Mountain out of a mole hill? I am glad I can turn this into a mountain as I have had researchers contacting me about this method. I am also just waiting for some pics to be posted by another member. 

This has never been a competition with Brian Barnett. It seems you don't need an elaborate setup like a humidicrib after all to keep hatchlings alive. 

You guys are correct! Each to their own.


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## redbellybite (Nov 16, 2009)

REGARDLESS of what some may think ,wether you find Nicoles methods barbaric and over tampering etc ...You have the right to your opinion ,and its been a great debate on the fors and against ...This ride isnt over so to speak ..the babies are not yet there ...so untill that matter occurs ..why argue and stress over a situation ..for some may be eating their posts ,if all goes well ...then again Nicole may be eating hers ..we wont know till that time comes ..All must agree it is interesting, either way you have bet on its outcome ...and as far as taking chances ,if humans never took risks ,we certainly would still be giving people a bit of stick to bite down on,and a few swigs of whisky, whilst cutting off their leg ...intervening is what makes progress ...anyway, I am one that really is amazed by this thread ,and wish Nicole all the best for a happy positive outcome ..


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## GreggMadden (Nov 16, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> Agreed!
> 
> I'm also going to say each to their own, but I do find it incredibly funny how human beings tamper with things that have worked for millions of years.


What, you mean like taking animals out of their natural environment and keeping them in cages inside your home??? Or how about breeding in captivity and tampering with natural selection... You know, something that has worked for millions of years... LOL
I think it is funny how people who keep and breed reptiles in captivity try to take a purest angle to prove their point when someone else does something that is not so natural...



moosenoose said:


> And when you think about it there can be no argument to defend it. If you're having trouble with eggs hatching or whatever, there is something amiss. Surely??


 There can be many things "amiss"... When you keep, breed, and incubate in captivity, human error can be blamed for the majority of issues when it comes to hatching issues....


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## Pineapplekitten (Nov 16, 2009)

> Your learning how to make a mountain out of a mole hill,like giving every pregnant woman a caesarian section


 
There's more being spoken about on this thread then what was originally posted about!!! im not saying i would do what CP has done but the info that has come from peoples experiences is food for thought..!!! and the pics are awesome..


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## moosenoose (Nov 16, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> What, you mean like taking animals out of their natural environment and keeping them in cages inside your home??? Or how about breeding in captivity and tampering with natural selection... You know, something that has worked for millions of years... LOL
> I think it is funny how people who keep and breed reptiles in captivity try to take a purest angle to prove their point when someone else does something that is not so natural...
> 
> There can be many things "amiss"... When you keep, breed, and incubate in captivity, human error can be blamed for the majority of issues when it comes to hatching issues....



Its probably not a wonder as to why the mortality rate is so high when it comes to people keeping these animals (eg: not the right environments, lack of humidity, too much humidity, not enough water, too much water, too hot, too cold blah blah blah). I think as a keeper it's important to try and get your head around what might actually work for the animal, rather than to further bend or distort certain aspects of the animals ‘very own nature” to suit ones needs. Surely from that perspective it's not too hard to understand where I'm coming from?

I did say "each to their own" and what I've written is my sole opinion only, right or wrong. I'm honestly not having a dig. The thread and pics are quite interesting, but I can’t get my head around reinventing the wheel.


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## Slateman (Nov 16, 2009)

I see this topic extremely *educational* material for all of us. For young new hobbyists as well as for experts. 
I can't do this experiments my self, (to much time involved). But I enjoy to see in photos finall development of snake embryo. 
Now people who have eggs in same stage can imagine better what is going inside of the shell. Just magic.
I think that we should move this topic to Reptile Studies topic after .


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## pythons73 (Nov 16, 2009)

So its time to get the scapels out..just kidding....Well Nicole theres been alot of negative comments and some good advice.but that seems to happen on all public forums...I must say the photos are very educational,some are not for the vaint hearted...Less than a week going by the 60odd day rule,but as been said before,it can take longer...All the best with the remaining and i hope we all see those white woms crawling around soon....MARK


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## fine_jungles (Nov 16, 2009)

The Americans have been doing the exact same thing for years. 
i wouldn't do it tho, great pics and love the adults.
This thread reminds me of hide and seek, ''coming ,ready or not''  
good on ya for posting...
cheers.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 16, 2009)

Hi all. I took some photos this morning before work. Was going to upload them from work. It turned out to be the day from hell. I never even went back to pick up my laptop and camera. So sorry, no photos tonight. I should have a double instalment tomorrow. I will try to take pictures of the egg wall on the inside so you can see the veins running up the inside of the egg with blood in them. 
On a public forum there will always be differences in opinion. I guess the art lies in being abe to accept another persons opinion.


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## wranga (Nov 16, 2009)

moosenoose said:


> Its probably not a wonder as to why the mortality rate is so high when it comes to people keeping these animals (eg: not the right environments, lack of humidity, too much humidity, not enough water, too much water, too hot, too cold blah blah blah). I think as a keeper it's important to try and get your head around what might actually work for the animal, rather than to further bend or distort certain aspects of the animals ‘very own nature” to suit ones needs. Surely from that perspective it's not too hard to understand where I'm coming from?
> 
> I did say "each to their own" and what I've written is my sole opinion only, right or wrong. I'm honestly not having a dig. The thread and pics are quite interesting, but I can’t get my head around reinventing the wheel.


 
think you will find the mortality rate is higher in wild animals than it is in captive bred animals. IMO its great to see someone trying to do something to increase the survival rate of all eggs in a clutch. as fine jungles pointed out this method has been used in the states for many years. i know of another breeder in australia that pipped an egg in a similar and the hatchie hatched with no problems


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## Jay84 (Nov 16, 2009)

And so the saga continues..........

I think this has been a great thread, and some amazing pictures of snakes in development that i would not have seen elsewhere. I am a fence sitter on this topic, i can see both for and against arguments that have been raised here.

Why there has to be so many crappy responses tho i dont know? Half of the questions asked by others i was wondering myself........

CP.c.a - I do hope they all hatch for you,m please keep more pics coming.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 16, 2009)

Will do. Just opened another clutch. 50% Albino, 50% possible het. To the number in this clutch, perfect Mendelian ratios. Something interesting about this line was the fact that it was a combination of the two different lines of albino around. The alleles are compatible, I was very relieved that they were not double hets. This mutation should have the same origins, if the founing animals were initially collected from the same locality?


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## krefft (Nov 16, 2009)

I, like many commenting on this thread have always thought that the time to pip or not to pip is one that fills you with anxiety.
Until I watched these videos. There would be a difference between a Retic and a Carpet hatchling but I'm amazed just how rough he can be.
He's probably opened more eggs than any of us, so he's doing something right.

[video=youtube;gzHqMWgUrCs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzHqMWgUrCs[/video]

[video=youtube;yRGYpKzPV8I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRGYpKzPV8I[/video]

I remember at the 40th anniversary conference of the AHS there were 2 talks on breeding Black Headed Pythons. Ged Hughes spoke on a successful breeding and Melbourne Zoo gave one on an unsuccessful attempt.
I learnt just as much from the unsuccessful attempt. Regardless of your views I think this is much more interesting and relevant than many of the other threads that are constantly posted. Agree or disagree it's relevant and interesting.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for that Krefft. I will post a mixed batch of pics tomorrow. If I am not mistaken day 56 and 57?


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## Australis (Nov 16, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> This has never been a competition with Brian Barnett. It seems you don't need an elaborate setup like a humidicrib after all to keep hatchlings alive. .



The plastic container your using is a humidicrib.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for clearing that up australis. I thought a humidicrib needed to be sterile and have the egg suspended in the air with string. So it's basically a container with high humidity?


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## Renagade (Nov 16, 2009)

krefft said:


> I, like many commenting on this thread have always thought that the time to pip or not to pip is one that fills you with anxiety.
> Until I watched these videos. There would be a difference between a Retic and a Carpet hatchling but I'm amazed just how rough he can be.
> He's probably opened more eggs than any of us, so he's doing something right.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting vid krefft, he just hacks on in yabbering away. shame he is way too annoying to hold a 9 min you tube vid.

keep the pics coming CP,c.a


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## krefft (Nov 16, 2009)

Renagade said:


> Interesting vid krefft, he just hacks on in yabbering away. shame he is way too annoying to hold a 9 min you tube vid.
> 
> keep the pics coming CP,c.a


 
I know. After posting it I clicked on the link to make sure it works. I'd forgotten how annoying he was. His pronunciation of caramel gave me a nose bleed. Best watched with the sound turned down.


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 17, 2009)

I still can't figure out what all the hub bub is with this thread.
I mean...pipping is as much of egg husbandry as artificial incubation. well, everywhere in the world but, Australia.... I guess. Haha.
I've hatched hundreds of eggs.....and I'd say up to 95% of them....I cut open.
I work with mostly BHPs and I can tell you this....in the states.....you don't cut the eggs open....you'll have dead baby BHPs.
My first year with BHPs....I had a clutch not pip on it's own and most of them died....fully formed (with egg teeth and all) in the eggs. Since then....I ALWAYS cut them....no questions asked.
Even with all the eggs I've cut open....I've never lost a hatchling from doing it......saved a good many but, never lost one from pipping.
I cut open a BHP last year that was fully formed still in the egg sack...dead. It had an egg tooth so why didn't it come out?
I believe....whatever tells the babies to get the hell out of there never happened. It wasn't that it couldn't get out because it "didn't have an egg tooth".
As I said....I've hatched hundreds of snakes and I've NEVER seen a snake without an egg tooth.
Sometimes.... it's because of a deformity...such as kinked spine, etc....And, those hatchlings wouldn't make it anyway.
I'm really into learning as much about the process as possible and I've cut eggs as early as 40 days....just to watch the development. (Which is really cool BTW)
I have a friend..... who for a collage project....cut eggs open at 15 DAYS!!!!!!! To watch and record data on developing embryos. They all hatched fine and they were CHONDRO eggs at that!!!!!!!!
As long as you don't harm the actual embryo.....you'll be fine. I've even cut some pretty big veins.....and the snakes were fine. Although, I suggest being as careful as possible.
But, pipping is so easy...............










a child can do it.






Here's some more shots with eggs I've pipped.
I've learned a lot from doing this over the years and can tell.... at what state the embryos are at... with more accuracy.
Check some of these out....
first breath of life.




























This one is interesting......you can clearly see the 2 hatchlings coming out....they're ready. But....what's up with the hatchling on the right.....it's about 5 days behind the others....why? Was in the same egg container, sitting right by the others that hatched.
Also, look at that middle egg of the left...even though I pipped it....it still made slits on the side of the egg.












An Axanthic BHP...




Another Axanthic...





So to recap....Pipping is harmless....unless you actually hurt the embryo.
Plus, you learn.....what's wrong with that?

Cheers everyone...have fun and happy herping.

D.


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## GreggMadden (Nov 17, 2009)

Great post Derek!!!

Just to be clear again, none of us can have a purest veiw when we keep animals in captivity... In captivity, there is no more natural selection, no more nature...

To be a purest in this hobby/culture is contadictory!!!


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## Jungletrans (Nov 17, 2009)

l suppose if this method saved an inferior or deformed hatchie that should have died in the egg you would let the person buying it know .


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

Never seen a snake without an egg tooth?

A good friend sent me pics of 3 jungles fully formed but didn't hatch because of no egg tooth but I just updated windows and somehow my email had all emails from a previous dial up server so I can't put pics up but will get outlook express sorted out and find the pics to show everyone...it does happen I'm surprised after hatching out hundreds of hatchlings and not one had no egg tooth?

I'm just being hypothetical here but say my friend pipped his eggs like in this thread they would've hatched out and just say the no egg tooth was caused genetically and could be inherited he'd be selling snakes that may pass on the genetic fault to it's offspring or a certain percentage they would end up getting into others collections and when these people try breeding them and wonder why some did not hatch out if that makes any sense,bit late and tired lol


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 17, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> Never seen a snake without an egg tooth?
> 
> ...it does happen I'm surprised after hatching out hundreds of hatchlings and not one had no egg tooth?



Not saying it doesn't happen......just saying...out of the hundreds I've hatched....I personally haven't seen it.
But, I've seen perfect hatchlings dead...... with an egg tooth.

Cheers,
D.


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 17, 2009)

Jungletrans said:


> l suppose if this method saved an inferior or deformed hatchie that should have died in the egg you would let the person buying it know .



Why would I sell someone a deformed hatchie? That doesn't make sense. Haha.
And, how would you know if it's "inferior" or not? 
Would it tell you? LoL.
Going by that judgment....a perfectly normal hatchling..... could be "inferior".

Plus, I don't breed animals specifically to sell.......I breed them to learn about the animals I'm keeping. 

Cheers,
D.


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 17, 2009)

Oh...BTW....Can any of you see egg teeth...in ANY of the photos I posted?
They're there.....but, a lot of time...you can't see it....only feel it.

Cheers,
D.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 17, 2009)

DerekRoddy said:


> *My first year with BHPs....I had a clutch not pip on it's own and most of them died....fully formed (with egg teeth and all) in the eggs*. Since then....I ALWAYS cut them....no questions asked.
> Even with all the eggs I've cut open....I've never lost a hatchling from doing it......saved a good many but, never lost one from pipping.
> I cut open a BHP last year that was fully formed still in the egg sack...dead. It had an egg tooth* so why didn't it come out?*
> *I believe....whatever tells the babies to get the hell out of there never happened*. It wasn't that it couldn't get out because it "didn't have an egg tooth".
> ...



Pipping works, no doubt, it is not the success of the method i was questioning in my earlier posts. What i want to know is *why* do they not emerge if everything else is perfectly fine. Why is it that one year they may hatch normally, then the next they all die in the egg?? If we assume the reason is not genetic for arguments sake, then there must be some abiotic factor that we are missing. Could it be the lunar cycle which they are know closed off from being locked in an incubator?? Could it, perhaps, be day/night light cycle (better survival hatching at different time)?? Dramatic change in barometric pressure (Speculation of storms triggering wild hatchings).

I just feel that rather then pipping the eggs artificially, we should maybe aim to work out what it is we are doing wrong.

Do people have to pip bird eggs??? It seems that many people within the reptile hobby report the need to pip because they have lost many reptiles in the past due to no pipping! So.....how many people have heard of bird eggs (that are artificially incubated) going full term, appearing perfectly developed but not emerging from there eggs??


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

Scientists beleive ot has to do with carbon dioxide levels surrounding an egg. they believe high levels of carbond ioxide would prompt the hatchling to leave the egg. If they dont realise this they would suffocate. I dont think we know how it would work in pythons. Maybe the mother has something to do with it?


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## GreggMadden (Nov 17, 2009)

Jungletrans said:


> l suppose if this method saved an inferior or deformed hatchie that should have died in the egg you would let the person buying it know .


What??? So eggs that are piped contain hatchlings that should have died???

As far as the carbon dioxide trigger eggs to hatch, this is true but I think it causes premature hatching in captivity more so than it is a way to trigger eggs at the right time... This is why many reptiles hatch with a yolk sack... Being that most snakes do not burry their eggs like lizards, I do not think carbon dioxide would build up around the egg in a natural setting as much as it would in an incubation container...


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## CodeRed (Nov 17, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Scientists beleive ot has to do with carbon dioxide levels surrounding an egg. they believe high levels of carbond ioxide would prompt the hatchling to leave the egg. If they dont realise this they would suffocate. I dont think we know how it would work in pythons. Maybe the mother has something to do with it?



I am not sure that I agree with carbon dioxide theory. I think there is something more complex at play, but I dont know what that is. 

What I have noticed is that eggs in a clump tend to pip at the same time (say within 12 hrs of each other), whereas eggs (from the same clutch) that are separated from the clump will generally pip later. Has anyone else noticed this?


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 17, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> I am not sure that I agree with carbon dioxide theory. I think there is something more complex at play, but I dont know what that is.
> 
> What I have noticed is that eggs in a clump tend to pip at the same time (say within 12 hrs of each other), whereas eggs (from the same clutch) that are separated from the clump will generally pip later. Has anyone else noticed this?



Interesting....this is the sort of input i've been hoping to see from breeders producing many clutches.

Has anyone used both a glass fronted incubator (in a room that receives a natural light cycle (except maybe turning light on to check of a night) AND an incubator that was sealed off from the light (i.e old fridge or esky etc). If so was hatching success or pipping different between the two??


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## CodeRed (Nov 17, 2009)

My incubator is glass fronted and the room receives a lot of natural light


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

Interesting. I guess there are things we will never know. I reckon it has something to do with mamma python!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

Day 56, 17/11/09:














































I turned off the flash for some of the photos to see if the colours come out better. I will take some photos of day 57 this arvo.


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

Personally I think it may have something to do with artificial incubation as I've used both maternal and artificial incubation and had great success with maternal incubation,after all that's what mums do best and has been happening for thousands of years,I think I'd also try maternal incubation if I ever got and bred greens.


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## Chrisreptile (Nov 17, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> I am not sure that I agree with carbon dioxide theory. I think there is something more complex at play, but I dont know what that is.
> 
> What I have noticed is that eggs in a clump tend to pip at the same time (say within 12 hrs of each other), whereas eggs (from the same clutch) that are separated from the clump will generally pip later. Has anyone else noticed this?



Could the heat from metabolism prompt the eggs (in a clump) to start pipping? Whereas eggs that were seperated might not get as much heat, meaning they (sometimes) don't pip in unison?


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## solar 17 (Nov 17, 2009)

*clumped eggs*

I don't have an incubator [as such] l use one of my snake enclosures and just put some globes and thermostat [habistat dimmer] in there glass front and all and because of my hide / heat box set-up 99.9 % of my eggs are clumped, as often [most times] l find females coiled on their eggs......and l don't notice any hatching patterns ...sometimes all together sometimes 3-4 days apart , so far this season 3-4 clutches of bhp,s have hatched at all different times and the same with the macs....cheers solar 17 [Baden]........ps l generally cut my eggs when l see the "egg" temp. rise by point four of a degree this is generally 51-53 days ...l use a high grade thermo. gauge........


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

Chrisreptile said:


> Could the heat from metabolism prompt the eggs (in a clump) to start pipping? Whereas eggs that were seperated might not get as much heat?


 
You might be onto something there mate!!! The combined heat of the clump + the mothers heat generating ablity = Hatching? She cooks them out of the eggs! Maybe.


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

Can see the egg tooth now!


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

Which one Browns?


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

I've tested the temp of eggs in a clump and the lower and middle eggs had some variation in temps compared to eggs on the top and throughout the whole clutch and there wasn't a uniform temp with each egg which was interesting!


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## Ozzie Python (Nov 17, 2009)

This so far has been a very interesting thread. 
Derek your comments have been very interesting for me. Why in the USA do you have high death rates in clutches if not pipped? Seems a bit strange to me, surely your incubation techniques are not too different to what we do, if anything we would be copying your technique more and more.

Interesting Baden that you pip yours as soon as the temp rises by .4C.
any reason in particular you do this? If it is earlier on during incubation that the egg temps rise would you still pip them?


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## solar 17 (Nov 17, 2009)

*Temp. Rise*

Personally l have never had them rise [temps] prior to this time frame....l do use [2] different forms of temperature checking to make sure that the rise [temp.] has commenced...cheers solar 17 [Baden]


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## moosenoose (Nov 17, 2009)

Just_Joshin said:


> Pipping works, no doubt, it is not the success of the method i was questioning in my earlier posts. What i want to know is *why* do they not emerge if everything else is perfectly fine. Why is it that one year they may hatch normally, then the next they all die in the egg?? If we assume the reason is not genetic for arguments sake, then there must be some abiotic factor that we are missing. Could it be the lunar cycle which they are know closed off from being locked in an incubator?? Could it, perhaps, be day/night light cycle (better survival hatching at different time)?? Dramatic change in barometric pressure (Speculation of storms triggering wild hatchings).
> 
> I just feel that rather then pipping the eggs artificially, we should maybe aim to work out what it is we are doing wrong.
> 
> Do people have to pip bird eggs??? It seems that many people within the reptile hobby report the need to pip because they have lost many reptiles in the past due to no pipping! So.....how many people have heard of bird eggs (that are artificially incubated) going full term, appearing perfectly developed but not emerging from there eggs??



Actually, you've worded what I'm thinking much better JJ.

The photos are remarkable none-the-less, and clearly the method seems to work for you CPCA. Thanks for sharing.

I suppose anything "a bit out there" begs a few questions. People say the US has been doing this method for years, and in another thread people are bagging certain US practices. Off topic a little, it's quite common-place to de-claw cats in various part of the States, whereas here it seems quite a cruel (possibly illegal) and an unnecessary practice.

I don’t think there is anything “immoral” with what’s being done, not really even the argument that it’s un-natural. I just think it’s unnecessary. I went to a lecture with John Weigel awhile ago and he was talking about the various techniques he’s used in regards to snake breeding, one was actually leaving the eggs with the female in its naturally laid clutch (can you believe it!! :lol which consistently resulted in a 100% success rate, all the time, every time.

Anyway, I have nothing further to comment on the topic, I sound like a broken record :lol: I’ll be watching with interest and wish you the very best with this technique.


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## Serpentes (Nov 17, 2009)

I can provide references if necessary, but 1. there is CO2 build-up in clumped python egg clutches, demonstrated in Antaresia; and 2. there are several cues but mostly movement by a hatching egg, or sometimes the mother, or even vocalisations (in crocodilians) are the cues to hatching. 

The primary cue to hatching is simply the developmental stage of the embryo. When it is ready, it will hatch. The poor seppos have a problem with hatching because many collections hold animals of inferior (weak) genetic composition, as seen in these albino pythons.


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## Ozzie Python (Nov 17, 2009)

Serpentes, i was going to question if their hatching problem (not slitting eggs themself as mentioned by Derek) could have something to do with their limited number of genetic lines from original Australian species breeding stock.


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2009)

Serpentes said:


> The primary cue to hatching is simply the developmental stage of the embryo. When it is ready, it will hatch. The poor seppos have a problem with hatching because many collections hold animals of inferior (weak) genetic composition, as seen in these albino pythons.



I agree, Actually hatching from the egg is a big step for a snake that could either be weakened genetically or artificially, this is an important part of the "only the strongest survive process", take this away and your weakening the hobby to line your pockets.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

JasonL: "only the strongest survive process", take this away and your weakening the hobby to *line your pockets. Thats not a fair statement to make. Albinos are not weak. I have seen no difference in their maintenance compared to their wild type counterparts. *


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## CodeRed (Nov 17, 2009)

Serpentes said:


> I can provide references if necessary, but 1. there is CO2 build-up in clumped python egg clutches, demonstrated in Antaresia; and 2. there are several cues but mostly movement by a hatching egg, or sometimes the mother, or even vocalisations (in crocodilians) are the cues to hatching.
> 
> The primary cue to hatching is simply the developmental stage of the embryo. When it is ready, it will hatch. The poor seppos have a problem with hatching because many collections hold animals of inferior (weak) genetic composition, as seen in these albino pythons.



Ive incubated eggs in a pure O2 environment (out of curiosity) and they hatched at the same time as those in a normal air mixture. Its not quite the result I was expecting or hoping for.

I also agree with the last sentiment. Let the weak die so that only the strong remain. Chosing when to interveine (as we have to at some stage) can make all the difference.


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

Can see the egg tooth in the 3rd and 4th large closeup pics......can you see it?

As I mentioned earlier and as others have stated the same that mum knows best and if the eggs are pipped to this degree the chances of weaker animals hatching is better hence out comes a snake that in the wild would not have hatched.If this was a genetic flaw it would be passed on to future offspring bringing weaker animals into the hobby the same way as I stated about no egg teeth if it was also a genetic flaw.I have a hide heat box similar to Solars and this makes the female lay the eggs in a clump with her coiled around the eggs but I left the female to incubate them,all hatched bar 1 which had and still has me baffled.


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> JasonL: "only the strongest survive process", take this away and your weakening the hobby to *line your pockets. Thats not a fair statement to make. Albinos are not weak. I have seen no difference in their maintenance compared to their wild type counterparts. *



Albino's not weak eh? Ok...sure, are you talking about all albinos as a blanket statement, or just a percentage of them?... By the way, I never mentioned albinos, I was just referring to captive bred snakes in general, which on a percentage basis are weaker than their wild counterparts that have to undergo a survival of the fittest process to reach breeding age, cuttting the eggs open just weakens the already weak process we as breeders put them through.


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## Serpentes (Nov 17, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> Ive incubated eggs in a pure O2 environment (out of curiosity) and they hatched at the same time as those in a normal air mixture. Its not quite the result I was expecting or hoping for.


Cool. How did you manage that? I guess a bit of carbosorb filtering will get rid of CO2, but otherwise I guess you just regulated an in-line with oxygen? From what I understand there is a fair range of tolerance to gaseous environments in egg incubation. It also seems that the hydric environment is not as important as we like to think, as long as the substrate holds at least some water available for uptake.


CarpetPythons: I said that albino snakes are weak. It is generally the case. I can perhaps find some supporting documentation if this is thought of as a radical statement


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

Here we go again. I am going to agree to disagree with you.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 17, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Here we go again. I am going to agree to disagree with you.


 
[video=youtube;oKTiwCez6Zs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKTiwCez6Zs]YouTube - Whitesnake - Here I Go Again[/url][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKTiwCez6Zs[/video]


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

I am not interested in supporting documentation with this one. I am interested in your personal experience with albinos in your care?


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## CodeRed (Nov 17, 2009)

Serpentes said:


> Cool. How did you manage that? I guess a bit of carbosorb filtering will get rid of CO2, but otherwise I guess you just regulated an in-line with oxygen? From what I understand there is a fair range of tolerance to gaseous environments in egg incubation. It also seems that the hydric environment is not as important as we like to think, as long as the substrate holds at least some water available for uptake.
> 
> 
> CarpetPythons: I said that albino snakes are weak. It is generally the case. I can perhaps find some supporting documentation if this is thought of as a radical statement





Easy, I drilled 2 holes in the tub. In one hole I placed the gas line from an oxy bottle. Open the tap for a couple of seconds, then seal both holes. I refilled the tub every couple of days just in case there were any leaks. It wasnt perfect, but the best I could do with the equipment I had. A better model would fit a pair connections to the tub. One in and the other out. Just gotta be careful not to explode the tub.


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## zulu (Nov 17, 2009)

*re These*

Looked like they are ready,come on guys poke your heads out ,want to see what the patterns look like, little bit of this an a little bit of that,trah lah lah :lol:


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

Well I know my albino is one of theeasiest snakes to care for,he eats with no hesitation every time,is placid as can be and all round a hardy animal which has never had any problems whatsoever,it is just a carpet lacking pigmentation.There have been many wild caught albinos of breeding size and age so they survived the survival of the fittest test.Most of the morphs we know of originated from wild caught specimens here in OZ and in several places across the big pond.


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

Here's something different and interesting.I know a guy who hatches out all females in every species he breeds,most people will say he's not sexing them properly however he is quite experienced in that department and he knows exactly when they'll hatch down to the day!!


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## Serpentes (Nov 17, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I am not interested in supporting documentation with this one. I am interested in your personal experience with albinos in your care?



I don't keep colour pattern mutants, so my experience will be fairly uninteresting even to the most interested! I will refrain from referencing the below prose, to align with your interests.

For many species the breeding of albino snakes results in high egg mortality in the F2 generation (F1 doesn't produce albinos). This happens even in corn snakes, the greatest mutants of them all, or at least it did in 1959 when the first albinos were bred in number at Balimore Zoo. After successive generations in captivity (required to reach an F3 offspring) there is artifical selection that ensures captive representation of the mutant gene. It is not only the reduced hatching rate inherent to the F2 generation (up to 50%, plus neonatal mortality), but the inbreeding of albino lines (desirable if you want to get more albino snakes) that causes idiosyncratic hatching problems with albinos. The mutation responsible for albinism is variable within species and has greater effect in some than in others. 

Given your propensity to pip your albino eggs you are familiar with this phenomenon?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

I am not going to argue about this. I pip them because I want to pip them. I will go and take some pictures after dinner.


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## Serpentes (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm not prepared to argue either, but I do foster intelligent and informed dialogue without emotive reactions. I already know why you pip your eggs, it's because you want them to hatch and survive, rather than a naiive "because I want to" as proffered above  I in no way intend on debasing your skill with these eggs, so please don't act so scared!



CodeRed said:


> Easy, I drilled 2 holes in the tub. In one hole I placed the gas line from an oxy bottle. Open the tap for a couple of seconds, then seal both holes. I refilled the tub every couple of days just in case there were any leaks. It wasnt perfect, but the best I could do with the equipment I had. A better model would fit a pair connections to the tub. One in and the other out. Just gotta be careful not to explode the tub.



Not perfect but it would displace a lot of nitrogen at least. It's a very interesting observation. I've removed CO2 from eggs but not nitrogen, which is the main gas in air. Removing CO2 (using carbosorb) had no effect on hatching in the skinks I trialled.


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## wranga (Nov 17, 2009)

for the knockers of CarpetPythons method, why do you artificially incubate your eggs instead of leaving them with mum for maternal incubation? would it be to get a higher hatch rate? so CarpetPythons method of pipping her eggs is to get a higher hatch rate. so IMO her method is no different to yours except she has an extra step in her method. im enjoying this thread and cant wait for these eggs to hatch and see the results that CarpetPythons gets with this method


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## CodeRed (Nov 17, 2009)

Serpentes said:


> I'm not prepared to argue either, but I do foster intelligent and informed dialogue without emotive reactions. I already know why you pip your eggs, it's because you want them to hatch and survive, rather than a naiive "because I want to" as proffered above
> 
> 
> 
> Not perfect but it would displace a lot of nitrogen at least. It's a very interesting observation. I've removed CO2 from eggs but not nitrogen, which is the main gas in air. Removing CO2 (using carbosorb) had no effect on hatching in the skinks I trialled.



Yeah I know it wasnt perfect, but it had to be done. Maybe this year I might inject a bit of CO2 into a tub say a week prior to the expected pip date and see if it induces hatching.


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## firedream (Nov 17, 2009)

well said wranga! couldn't agree more.


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## zobo (Nov 17, 2009)

my Darwin clutch just started coming out naturally and so far 4 heads all out within hours of each other.

Interesting thing is; even though they have been at 31 degrees it still took 63 days.

j


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## Chrisreptile (Nov 17, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> Here's something different and interesting.I know a guy who hatches out all females in every species he breeds,most people will say he's not sexing them properly however he is quite experienced in that department and he knows exactly when they'll hatch down to the day!!



Could you elaborate more on that?

Does he incubate at a different temperature? etc


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

Day 57: Here you go. I think this is some of my best work yet. Notice the veins on the inside of the shells.


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2009)

wranga said:


> for the knockers of CarpetPythons method, why do you artificially incubate your eggs instead of leaving them with mum for maternal incubation? would it be to get a higher hatch rate? so CarpetPythons method of pipping her eggs is to get a higher hatch rate. so IMO her method is no different to yours except she has an extra step in her method. im enjoying this thread and cant wait for these eggs to hatch and see the results that CarpetPythons gets with this method



The captive keeping and breeding of reptiles is artificial. When we pair up animals for breeding they do not under go natural selection, no courtship ect, the enclosure temps and humidity are usually far from what the female would actually choose to be in, esp when choosing a spot to incubate her eggs, the whole process is flawed... I personally don't care what people do to their own reptiles or eggs, it's up to them. I just try to open peoples minds up to the possible ramifications of various methods used. Twenty years down the track and a few generations later when more and more pythons just drop dead for no reason maybe people will say it's all inbreeding? maybe it's a new mystery virus or calcium issues... who knows eh?


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## Slateman (Nov 17, 2009)

Lot of you support method to leave eggs with female. There are some comment in previous post that John have 100% success year after year by leaving eggs with female to hatch naturally.
Well that is maybe true, but this depends also on female. Not all females are same and some of them don't take care of the eggs as well as the others do. Last year one of my female rejected 5 eggs from clutch, and rubbed her self around the rest. I put the 5 eggs rejected by female to incubator and 4 of them hatched with out problem.
Also I remove eggs from female mainly to gibe her break. They do look better if they can get the first feed 60 days earlier and for me is health of my females important.
I think also if female get bit of help from keeper by incubating eggs in incubator, her life span is longer.
Maybe my opinion is wrong, and there is no difference to female health if you leave her with eggs. But there is so many keepers and so many different opinion and techniques.


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## jessieJEALOUSY (Nov 17, 2009)

this may sound like such a newbie question.
and isnt totally related to this thread.
but why is it that when you move snake eggs from the hatching site to the incubator that you have to keep that facing the same way?

by the way.
i have found this thread really interesting, its pretty cool to see how some keepers keep their eggs.


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2009)

jessieJEALOUSY said:


> this may sound like such a newbie question.
> and isnt totally related to this thread.
> but why is it that when you move snake eggs from the hatching site to the incubator that you have to keep that facing the same way?
> 
> ...



The embryo attaches itself to the egg wall after being laid, if is is turned after it has done that the embryo will die, before that happens though they can be rolled around like marbles...


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## jessieJEALOUSY (Nov 17, 2009)

JasonL said:


> The embryo attaches itself to the egg wall after being laid, if is is turned after it has done that the embryo will die, before that happens though they can be rolled around like marbles...



ahk. thanks. how long till the embryo attaches itself?


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## Chuckface01 (Nov 17, 2009)

This is a FANTASTIC THREAD! thankyou so much carpetpythons.com the photos are amasing!woudl you mind if I printed some out and stuck them on my wall? I just thought i shoudl ask out of courtesy, they absolutly blow me away.


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2009)

jessieJEALOUSY said:


> ahk. thanks. how long till the embryo attaches itself?


It can vary... from days to maybe a couple of weeks depending on various factors


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## wranga (Nov 17, 2009)

jessieJEALOUSY said:


> this may sound like such a newbie question.
> and isnt totally related to this thread.
> but why is it that when you move snake eggs from the hatching site to the incubator that you have to keep that facing the same way?
> 
> ...


 
the embryo attaches to the inside of the egg. at the top of the egg is an air sack that the embryo faces. if the egg is turned then the embryo isnt facing the air sack and will drown. hope my simple terms have helped you understand. maybe someone else can explain it better than me


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 17, 2009)

JasonL said:


> The embryo attaches itself to the egg wall after being laid, if is is turned after it has done that the embryo will die, before that happens though they can be rolled around like marbles...


 
Come on now, lets not tell people they can roll eggs around like marbles! We dont want them trying it unless you have done that before Jason?


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## jessieJEALOUSY (Nov 17, 2009)

haha so because we dont know when the embryo attaches itself. its just safer to not roll it at all. got it (Y)


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## jahan (Nov 17, 2009)

thanks C.P.au for opening one of natures windows for all to see..


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## JasonL (Nov 17, 2009)

jessieJEALOUSY said:


> haha so because we dont know when the embryo attaches itself. its just safer to not roll it at all. got it (Y)



yes, though if you get them as she is laying it is fine to roll them.


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 17, 2009)

interesting article serpentes. Could there be a link between albinism and egg teeth perhaps?? Being what you could described an undesirable gene it is interesting to see mortality rate greatly increase in particular species in the F2 generation. Maybe natures way of avoiding mass numbers of an undesirable gene entering the population to potentially increase in number.

Obvisouly albinism is undesirable as not only does it make the animal more visible to predator, this trait in turn makes the animal more visible to prey and therefore less likely to successfully hunt.

Does anyone know or have a link to egg tooth developement and at what stage it occurs. I'm guessing it is a rapid process as early development could result in the developing snake accidentally pipping early while moving around. It will be interesting to see at what stage Nicoles hatchies develope egg teeth. It seems from the close up pics that it has yet to happen.

Could you PM me the link to the article?? i'd like to have a read.


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## firedream (Nov 17, 2009)

http://www.ecmjournal.org/journal/supplements/vol014supp02/pdf/v014supp02a134.pdf


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## Serpentes (Nov 17, 2009)

firedream said:


> http://www.ecmjournal.org/journal/supplements/vol014supp02/pdf/v014supp02a134.pdf



That's fascinating stuff. So different snakes have different egg tooth origins and formations and lizards do it altogether differently. And it is a true tooth, how wierd.

This thread keeps popping up with the most wonderful Gems. Valueable. No, priceless!


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## BROWNS (Nov 17, 2009)

Chrisreptile said:


> Could you elaborate more on that?
> 
> Does he incubate at a different temperature? etc


No he uses the water method and standard incubating temps.He's had it with bhp's,coastals,childrens ,womas,jungles and the same result each year.I'm guessing it's something to do with being enviromental.He just sitsa grate on a shelf like in most fridges with eggs suspended above the water.

I find it amazing that he gets the same results right to knowing exactly when the eggs start hatching to the day.I had a discussion about this with jay76 as to why this happens however i forgot exactly what he said,I think he said something to do with barometric pressure but it certainly is puzzeling that's for sure!I don't think I can elaborate anymore,or better????????


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## Chrisreptile (Nov 17, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> No he uses the water method and standard incubating temps.He's had it with bhp's,coastals,childrens ,womas,jungles and the same result each year.I'm guessing it's something to do with being enviromental.He just sitsa grate on a shelf like in most fridges with eggs suspended above the water.
> 
> I find it amazing that he gets the same results right to knowing exactly when the eggs start hatching to the day.I had a discussion about this with jay76 as to why this happens however i forgot exactly what he said,I think he said something to do with barometric pressure but it certainly is puzzeling that's for sure!I don't think I can elaborate anymore,or better????????



Thanks for that Brown's,

Seems rather interesting though.


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## GreggMadden (Nov 18, 2009)

There is nothing to suggest that albinos are weak genetically and their physical is not strained either... Take it from a US breeder who has been dealing with morphs for over 15 years (longer than some of you have been in the hobby)... 

Albinos are not any weaker than normals at all, aside from normal complications that come with albinism like not being able to sit in the sun,,, Thats about it though... They breed the same, their hatch rates are the same, their husbandry is the same, they eat the same, they live long healthy lives the same as their normal counterparts...

It is obvious that arguments against albinos stems from untruths and pure jealousy... People are mad because they can not line their pockets as well...

What is wrong with making money doing something you love??? I dont get why people get mad at people who try to make a living in the reptile hobby... 

Maddness!!!:lol:

There are many albino species being hatched in the US... There have been no issues with egg tooth development (it has not been proven genetic or related to albinism) or any other issues in the health... Missing an egg tooth is actually not common and is an individual problem... I do not recall ever hearing of an entire clutch not having egg teeth... 

Keep in mind that although some can, not all defective or mutated genes will weaken animals...


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## GreggMadden (Nov 18, 2009)

wranga said:


> the embryo attaches to the inside of the egg. at the top of the egg is an air sack that the embryo faces. if the egg is turned then the embryo isnt facing the air sack and will drown. hope my simple terms have helped you understand. maybe someone else can explain it better than me


 
Actually this is not really correct...

The embryo can attach itself anywhere in the egg... Top and sides are usual and even sometimes on the bottom... It will take a few hours to a couple of days to attach itself, never weeks...

Once attached, if the egg is turned the embryo will not drown... It will however suffocate because the vascular system that brings oxygen from the egg wall to the embryo detatches...

It really has nothing to do with an air bubble...


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## monkeyboy (Nov 18, 2009)

Sometimes I’m almost ashamed of being Australian. We spend all this time arguing over ridiculous stuff like this, whilst the Americans and everyone else just gets on with it. No wonder we are so far behind. 
All you people up there on the moral high ground, think about this; if you have a snake in an enclosure, you have no right to object to this practice or virtually any other practice involved in the breeding of captive bred reptiles. Everything we do is an improvement on nature. 
Ever stop to think that the reason a snake lays 15 eggs in the wild is because chances are a Lace Monitor will knock off 10 of them, Kookaburras will get 2, 2 might get squished by a Kangaroo and 1 will survive? Does that mean that the 1 survivor is the chosen one, some sort of super snake and the only one of it’s clutch worthy to breed? Or maybe it was just lucky? Do you think it was the only one with an egg tooth?
These are no longer wild animals. We keep them in a box so they are safe; we ensure that their temps, humidity, UV range, diet etc is perfect. We even spend a lot of time and effort to make sure that the rats that will eventually feed our snakes have the best of everything, I will only give mine filtered water for God’s sake, do you think a snake in the wild has the luxury of only preying on the rats that have the correct body mass index?? Hell no, in fact, chances are at some point they will come across a rodent with a belly full of ratsack and then it’s light out for both of them. 
So if you’re going to be a purist, be one. Release all your animals and let nature take it’s course. Otherwise, welcome to the world of reptiles in captivity, where it’s really ok to use an incubator, or cut windows in the eggs, or change that blown heat bulb, or use a thermostat, or enclose our animals from predators, and then at the end of all this, it’s actually ok to make some money from this work. Just because it’s your passion, doesn’t mean you have to feel dirty about making money out of it. 
The fact that others are willing to share their knowledge should be applauded, especially since they do so knowing full well the wowsers are going to have a go at them over it. Carpetpythons.com has done more for the hobby than most with this thread. The only way we will develop and learn is if more people share info like this, and hopefully the naysayers and negative vibe merchants will be out looking for their freshly released animals to see how there doing and wont be around to stifle the progress....
Thanks CPca for starting this thread, and good luck with the bubs.
Respect, 
Steve.


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## GreggMadden (Nov 18, 2009)

Great post Steve...
The only thing I dont agree with is this...


monkeyboy said:


> Sometimes I’m almost ashamed of being Australian.


 
Be proud of what you are... Besides, we do not have much choice as to what we are anyway LOL... What matters is who we are as individuals...

Most of the folks I have come into contact with in the hobby no matter where they come from have been really down to earth and willing to learn no matter how much they already know...

There are many idiots and scum in the reptile hobby here in the US too... This is true no matter what the locality is... 

It does not matter what good you have done... There will always be some jackasses looking to cut you down somehow...

Knowledge is power... The more we share, the stronger our hobby becomes...


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## JasonL (Nov 18, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> Actually this is not really correct...
> 
> The embryo can attach itself anywhere in the egg... Top and sides are usual and even sometimes on the bottom... It will take a few hours to a couple of days to attach itself, never weeks...
> 
> If the eggs are constantly moving, or moved on a regular basis the embryo will fail to attach untill he egg has settled, whilst it may not happen with python eggs, hardier eggs such as bearded dragons can be rolled around weeks after being layed with sometimes no effect and a 100% hatch rate.


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## ashisnothereman (Nov 18, 2009)

monkeyboy said:


> Sometimes I’m almost ashamed of being Australian. We spend all this time arguing over ridiculous stuff like this, whilst the Americans and everyone else just gets on with it. No wonder we are so far behind.



i agree. this hobby is at a stand still and not going anywhere due to our love for the 'pure' and 'natural'. its not natural at all, reptiles arent kept in cages and incubated in tubs with heatcords, etc. i dont see what the bru ha ha is all about, albinos are rare, carpetpythons.com.au is ensuring he gets the most out of his efforts and so would everyone else if they were in the same situation.


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## derekm (Nov 18, 2009)

GreggMadden said:


> There is nothing to suggest that albinos are weak genetically and their physical is not strained either... Take it from a US breeder who has been dealing with morphs for over 15 years (longer than some of you have been in the hobby)...
> 
> Albinos are not any weaker than normals at all, aside from normal complications that come with albinism like not being able to sit in the sun,,, Thats about it though... They breed the same, their hatch rates are the same, their husbandry is the same, they eat the same, they live long healthy lives the same as their normal counterparts...
> 
> It is obvious that arguments against albinos stems from untruths and pure jealousy... People are mad because they can not line their pockets as well...



I'd be a bit more charitable and suggest that arguments mainly stem from people thinking in terms of an albino's "fitness" for survival and successful reproduction in a natural environment when, in this type of discussion, they need to think of "fitness" for survival and successful reproduction in an artificial environment. It is only because all of the environmental factors that render an albino "less fit" for survival in the wild can be mitigated in captivity, that that albinos are as "fit" as normals.

The other area that can lead to arguments is confusion between the concepts of "stronger/weaker" in a physical or disease-resistant sense and "more/less fit" in an adapted to environment sense. I suspect that, if albinos really were intrinsically weaker than normals, albinism would be much less prevalent in wild populations of cave-dwelling animals.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Nov 18, 2009)

wranga said:


> for the knockers of CarpetPythons method, why do you artificially incubate your eggs instead of leaving them with mum for maternal incubation? would it be to get a higher hatch rate? so CarpetPythons method of pipping her eggs is to get a higher hatch rate. so IMO her method is no different to yours except she has an extra step in her method. im enjoying this thread and cant wait for these eggs to hatch and see the results that CarpetPythons gets with this method


 
Spot on wranga. In line with that, if whomever is so concerned with "the natural way" of things, euthanise your aberrant captive python collection, switch off the computer and head out to the bush and enjoy looking at snakes there coiled around their clutches.



monkeyboy said:


> All you people up there on the moral high ground, think about this; if you have a snake in an enclosure, you have no right to object to this practice or virtually any other practice involved in the breeding of captive bred reptiles. Everything we do is an improvement on nature.
> Ever stop to think that the reason a snake lays 15 eggs in the wild is because chances are a Lace Monitor will knock off 10 of them, Kookaburras will get 2, 2 might get squished by a Kangaroo and 1 will survive? Does that mean that the 1 survivor is the chosen one, some sort of super snake and the only one of it’s clutch worthy to breed? Or maybe it was just lucky? Do you think it was the only one with an egg tooth?


 
Super snake! Best post in this thread other than the OP and her desire to share her experience.



GreggMadden said:


> Most of the folks I have come into contact with in the hobby no matter where they come from have been really down to earth and willing to learn no matter how much they already know...
> 
> There are many idiots and scum in the reptile hobby here in the US too... This is true no matter what the locality is...
> 
> ...


 
Knowledge is indeed power Gregg, thanks for the input from the other side of the pond. 



JasonL said:


> GreggMadden said:
> 
> 
> > Actually this is not really correct...
> ...


 
This thread is about python eggs.



Serpentes said:


> Your turn: take it from an Australian research scientist who has been dealing with non-morphs for over 20 years. Get off your seppo high horse.
> 
> Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, and don't bring unsupported opinions to a publisher. Please provide evidence albino fitness. It's really trying when people continue to assert information based on nothing tangible. "Take it from a big Seppo" is as tangible as "I pip because I want to". Diatribe is ineffective.


 
As Gregg pointed out, there are idiots everywhere. Childish name calling, yes we all know you refer to Americans as Septic Tanks teaches no-one anything. Very scientific.

What a great thread, other than idiots argueing to make themselves feel better. I've lost many, much needed I.Q. points reading the rubbish, but should have retained a few with the good posts that were/are present.

To CarpetPythons.com.au, thanks for sharing your technique and real-time experience! I personally look forward to following this thread to it's logical conclusion. Glad you decided not to let the trolls keep you from posting updates, truly facinating stuff.


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## buck (Nov 18, 2009)

monkeyboy said:


> Sometimes I’m almost ashamed of being Australian. We spend all this time arguing over ridiculous stuff like this, whilst the Americans and everyone else just gets on with it. No wonder we are so far behind.
> All you people up there on the moral high ground, think about this; if you have a snake in an enclosure, you have no right to object to this practice or virtually any other practice involved in the breeding of captive bred reptiles. Everything we do is an improvement on nature.
> Ever stop to think that the reason a snake lays 15 eggs in the wild is because chances are a Lace Monitor will knock off 10 of them, Kookaburras will get 2, 2 might get squished by a Kangaroo and 1 will survive? Does that mean that the 1 survivor is the chosen one, some sort of super snake and the only one of it’s clutch worthy to breed? Or maybe it was just lucky? Do you think it was the only one with an egg tooth?
> These are no longer wild animals. We keep them in a box so they are safe; we ensure that their temps, humidity, UV range, diet etc is perfect. We even spend a lot of time and effort to make sure that the rats that will eventually feed our snakes have the best of everything, I will only give mine filtered water for God’s sake, do you think a snake in the wild has the luxury of only preying on the rats that have the correct body mass index?? Hell no, in fact, chances are at some point they will come across a rodent with a belly full of ratsack and then it’s light out for both of them.
> ...


 
If advancing like the Americans and others means that we can no longer work out if an animal is pure or not I'm quite happy to stay behind the times thanks.

I'm not really sure how you could say that having a snake in a box is an imrpovement on nature. I'm not suggesting that we all go and release our animals either but surely nothing could be an imrpovement on nature. Or am I missing the point?

To be honest as interesting as this thread has been I can't really say that she has done anything for the hobby by sharing it. I may be cynical but I can't help but think that the thread was started so that she could get a lot of interest in her albino hatchlings that will no doubt be for sale soon. A little bit like the thread she started with her SIM containers just before the shipment was due.


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## Greenmad (Nov 18, 2009)

buck said:


> If advancing like the Americans and others means that we can no longer work out if an animal is pure or not I'm quite happy to stay behind the times thanks.
> 
> I'm not really sure how you could say that having a snake in a box is an imrpovement on nature. I'm not suggesting that we all go and release our animals either but surely nothing could be an imrpovement on nature. Or am I missing the point?
> 
> To be honest as interesting as this thread has been I can't really say that she has done anything for the hobby by sharing it. I may be cynical but I can't help but think that the thread was started so that she could get a lot of interest in her albino hatchlings that will no doubt be for sale soon. A little bit like the thread she started with her SIM containers just before the shipment was due.


 

How can you she hasnt done anything for the hobby do you think writing things like this does anything for the hobby. And of yes they proberly will be up for sale as will everyone elses.
I think it very interesting this post and would love to see more interesting threads like this other pages of crap


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## Slateman (Nov 18, 2009)

I would advice all members that moderators are watching this topic closely.
There is lot of interest from most of our members to keep this topic clean.
If you don't like to watch and enjoy this thread and be civil, just stay out of here.
This is WARNING.


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## Greenmad (Nov 18, 2009)

sorry few spelling errors


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 18, 2009)

buck said:


> To be honest as interesting as this thread has been I can't really say that she has done anything for the hobby by sharing it. I may be cynical but I can't help but think that the thread was started so that she could get a lot of interest in her albino hatchlings that will no doubt be for sale soon. A little bit like the thread she started with her SIM containers just before the shipment was due.


 
It was never my intention to contribute to the hobby you hold so dearly Buck. How can you anticipate putting up a thread that has had 14000 views? I also pay good money to advertise my product on this site. This sponsorship allows me to advertise as many times in a year as I want . You might have missed the fact that i have received an infraction too, even though i am a sponsor. I am glad we are getting some exposure, we have worked hard enough for it. 

I am sure you will have as many fans as haters of this thread. Dont follow it if it is not acceptable in your eyes.


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## Jdsixtyone (Nov 18, 2009)

Begesus 25 pages allready i only looked at this thread last friday. Hows the hatchys coming along CPA?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 18, 2009)

Day 58: Day of the dreaded egg tooth!!!!!!
Well i am tipping about 3 more days of waiting. The eggs are starting to dry out quite a bit. There is just a thick membrane (amnion) left. The veins arealso starting to become less. Some have already torn the membrane. They seem quite content to stay in their hot tub. The biggest event of the day is that the elusive egg tooth has been captured on camera!!! 













































Behold, the egg tooth!!!

















Enjoy!!!!


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## Chuckface01 (Nov 18, 2009)

wow!


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## pythons73 (Nov 18, 2009)

I thought i was seeing things,i can see a small snake with mouth open,look in the eye a couple pictures above.The outline of the eye is the mouth and the pupil is the snakes eye.aLL THE BEST,times nearly running out...MARK


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## No-two (Nov 18, 2009)

What happened to the egg in the top right corner? They look alot differnt to when first piped, I think it's pretty clear they were undeveloped. Interesting read though.


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## jay76 (Nov 18, 2009)

My darwins came out at day 58 at 31.4deg.


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## Chrisreptile (Nov 18, 2009)

No-two said:


> What happened to the egg in the top right corner? They look alot differnt to when first piped, I think it's pretty clear they were undeveloped. Interesting read though.



It died.


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## Pythons Rule (Nov 18, 2009)

wow congrats and look forward to seeing them out of them eggs. wasn't there 9 eggs? what happened to the 9th? also been sitting on the side lines watching this thread thinking this is a fantastic thread and wished there where more breeders sharing this kind of stuff for all to see. keep it up and I'll be interested in a few tubs in the next year


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## Pythons Rule (Nov 18, 2009)

oh thats really sad that it died do you know what might of caused it to die?


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## BROWNS (Nov 18, 2009)

That's not the first egg tooth,I told you which one I could see an egg tooth in the 3rd and 4th closeup larger pics form yesterday in one of my postss asking if you could see it too,you asked which one and i explained asking if you could see it too,I'm sure if you look at the pcs I said I could see the egg tooth...So basically they develope an egg tooth quite rapidly in the last few days of incubation...my question has been answered now anyway,thanks!


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## CodeRed (Nov 18, 2009)

Pythons Rule said:


> oh thats really sad that it died do you know what might of caused it to die?



premature egg-actulation


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## BROWNS (Nov 18, 2009)

No-two said:


> What happened to the egg in the top right corner? They look alot differnt to when first piped, I think it's pretty clear they were undeveloped. Interesting read though.


Could be the hemepenes which you can see clearly in a few eggs rather than a deformity or underdeveloped I guess we'll see if it's underdeveloped or deformed when/if it hatches out.


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## Serpentes (Nov 18, 2009)

Due to the hopefully temporal instance of differing epistemologies voiced herein, I rescind my former statements, in so far as I believe power is weakness, pride is a vice and knowledge is a virtue unto itself co-incident with humility. Subesequently please accept my apologies for alluding to racial prejudice in a former posting.

Good work with your eggs so far Carpetpythons, I wish the hatchlings all the best.


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## cougars (Nov 18, 2009)

Great photos.Hope all goes well.


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## BROWNS (Nov 18, 2009)

Chrisreptile said:


> It died.



Well there ya go,it seems as though things aren't going as well as was said to be.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 18, 2009)

It was dead when i opened it ( I have photographic proof). Its nobodys loss at the end of the day but mine. I also dont understand why i would risk animals of significant value for a method that is unsafe and that could kill all of them? But you are all entitled to your opinions. I am glad there are some that found this thread informative. I might just keep all of these seeing that they survived such an ordeal. On a side note: It is well known that the hemipenes are only retracted at the end of the incubation period. I do know the difference between a hemipene and a deformity. My God you guys are sceptics.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 18, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> Well there ya go,it seems as though things aren't going as well as was said to be.


 
And you can gauge just how things in my collection are from 1 egg dieing out of 250 eggs? Come on Browns you should know best of all that you sometimes cant help certain eggs from dieing. If you dont have 100% hatch rates you are an inferior breeder? I could have made up a story like most breeders do about my 100% hatch rates, but i did'nt. You win some and you lose some. Thats how life works.


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## No-two (Nov 18, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> And you can gauge just how things in my collection are from 1 egg dieing out of 250 eggs? Come on Browns you should know best of all that you sometimes cant help certain eggs from dieing. If you dont have 100% hatch rates you are an inferior breeder? I could have made up a story like most breeders do about my 100% hatch rates, but i did'nt. You win some and you lose some. Thats how life works.


 
I havn't bred a whole heap of animals, but every egg that I've incubated has hatched, on it's own accord. I've had two hatch and die soon after, but they were visibly weakend, and weren't going to survive, they never had their first sloughs after about 10days and then died. It's not impossible to get 100% hatch rate, quiet easy in my experiance.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 18, 2009)

As I have said before, this method works for me and I will keep using it. This death was a first for me. The only other deaths I have ever had has been out of a clutch that I left to pip themselves. We have already assessed that these snakes are weak, deformed and born without egg teeth. That should be enough to explain a likely death. It's still close enough to a 100% hatch rate as I would like. Thanks for the opinions by the way!


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## jay76 (Nov 18, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> And you can gauge just how things in my collection are from 1 egg dieing out of 250 eggs? Come on Browns you should know best of all that you sometimes cant help certain eggs from dieing. If you dont have 100% hatch rates you are an inferior breeder? I could have made up a story like most breeders do about my 100% hatch rates, but i did'nt. You win some and you lose some. Thats how life works.



I still have never lost an egg and have always had 100% hatch rate from eggs that are good to start with. I have had some **** looking eggs this season that have hatched but I had to put more time into them. My darwins started to sink after 2 days in the incubator so I had put a damp tea towel over the top of the tub and spray them every 2 days but they all ended up coming out. I hope I never have one die in the egg but the odds say I will. I pip them at 55 days but only a very small slit in the top and every time they poke there heads out at 58 days at 31.4 deg. That was with a total of 319 eggs. Cheers Jarrod


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## Slateman (Nov 18, 2009)

No-two said:


> I havn't bred a whole heap of animals, but every egg that I've incubated has hatched, on it's own accord. I've had two hatch and die soon after, but they were visibly weakend, and weren't going to survive, they never had their first sloughs after about 10days and then died. It's not impossible to get 100% hatch rate, quiet easy in my experiance.



I wish to be as good as you mate. maybe in time I will learn more and achieve same perfection like you. So far I do have some times egg with problem. 100% success in all clutches each year task I will newer concur. That I am sure about. 

Photos are great and thank you for posting. Not to long to go


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 18, 2009)

Maybe keepers should post honest hatch ratios. How many eggs laid versus how many eggs hatched. They can also ad how many clutches one male sired. What their ratios of male to female was, etc. It would be interesting to compare notes although most would be reluctant to share this type of information.


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## Bray-Dog (Nov 18, 2009)

Only a noob haha so i dont know, how much do these guys go for? lol


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## ihaveherps (Nov 18, 2009)

This is indeed an interesting thread.... For what its worth, those taking note of this cutting episode for their own reference and future application, tread carefully.... there is a big difference between knowledge, and the application of said knowledge, furthermore in scenarios such as this thread, its another leap to know when to take action.... 

It must be said that CP.com did a good job of the cutting, though fell well short of judging the date of application, for no matter how its sliced and diced, since the cut date, the first set of picturess, the eggs have dessicated quite dramatically compared to the downward spiral a normal un-cut eggs would have taken over the same period prior to hatch date. 

An argument bought to the fore often, though swept aside every time, is what should be the duty of every breeder in the hobby, removing inferior specimens from the gene pool. A moot point to argue, hell even in defence of cutting eggs, Derek Roddy wrote that to hatch a BHP in the US, you have to cut them. To me the statement itself infers that their lines are somehow unable to hatch themselves, a step in the fundamental design of an egg, that quite possibly by the pipping of the eggs, from what is a small gene pool to start with, that they have perpetuated animals of weak genetic integrity, by circumventing one of the first physical tests of natural selection. Anyone willing to debate that all snakes are not created equal, is a fool, and that first mechanical barrier, escaping the egg, is the first in a miriad of trials, that in the wild selects for the strongest individuals, to become an adult and in turn pass on their superior genetics. Breeding in captivity, we have marked success raising hatchies to adult, generation by generation our success is leading to the downfall of the genetic integrity of our charges, the least we could do is let hatching take its course to seperate some of the wheat from the chaff.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 19, 2009)

You have argued a valid point. How many keepers do you know that would actually euthenase weaker specimens? For whatever reason? Pipping eggs would not be the only thing we as keepers are conciously doingto prmote weaker lines. What about inbreedingg and line breeding? Surely this can be seen as just as damaging.


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## JasonL (Nov 19, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Maybe keepers should post honest hatch ratios. How many eggs laid versus how many eggs hatched. They can also ad how many clutches one male sired. What their ratios of male to female was, etc. It would be interesting to compare notes although most would be reluctant to share this type of information.



I agree with you 100% on this one. Many new breeders don't realise that it is really common to have problems hatching sometimes, and it is possible to lose whole clutches or generally have a high mortality rate. Death is a dirty word though, esp with young snakes that have hatched out or with various morphs, as you don't want people to think you have a weak line or a possible disease in your collection... Some Geckos have proved near impossible for me to hatch and it took many year of incubating at different temps, humidity levels, different incubation substrates, to work out they all had nothing to do with it and it was in fact the temperature the females were being kept at during the period of being gravid that was effecting the eggs... Some years I would lose 50 animals in their eggs, though thats out of several hundred.


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## BROWNS (Nov 19, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> And you can gauge just how things in my collection are from 1 egg dieing out of 250 eggs? Come on Browns you should know best of all that you sometimes cant help certain eggs from dieing. If you dont have 100% hatch rates you are an inferior breeder? I could have made up a story like most breeders do about my 100% hatch rates, but i did'nt. You win some and you lose some. Thats how life works.


Did I say i was talking about your whole collection?Did I say that anyone who doesn't get %100 hatch rate is an inferior breeder?One way of proving someone is a superior breeder "yourwords" I wouldn't say inferior or superior but just succesfull.I was not insinuating anything along those lines however I was referring to the clutch in this thread and if you go back to some of the things you stated earlier on in this thread ,someone said it will be interesting to see if they all hatch out and your reply was,not if but "will" all hatch out! Already even before any have hatched out you already had one die even though your giving them the easiest chance at hatching into this world..

Now I'm not trying to start any arguements but I'm just replying to the information you have provided in this thread.You said this death was a first for you along with a clutch you hadn't pipped so seeing as you said you hadn't had a whole clutch die obviously some from that clutch hatched but how many didn't?You also said previously that you once had lost enough eggs to make anyone paranoid as well as having some murray darlings not hatch which isn't exactly what I'd call a first for you.It seems you said some things early in this thread which you seemed sure of which hasen't turned out to be the case and when showen this you get all defensive.However as I said I'm replying to things you have stated yourself but later in the thread you're acknowledging quite a few things you stated weren't exactly correct.

Yes I do know sometimes eggs just won't hatch giving a 100% hatch rate however you were very confident at the start of this thread about several things which again didn't turn out to be the case!. I know several people who regularly get a 100% hatch rate and they weren't bs'ing.I also agreed with you when someone questioned if a certain animal was deformed or not ?I did say it looks like it's just the hemepenes which may have been mistaken as being deformed and the only way to find out if it's deformed or not if/when they hatch out which I think is a wrong term to use in this case as they don't actually hatch out but come out of a large hole in the egg provided by yourself to increase the chances of hatching/coming out.

This has been a great thread which has brought up and answered several very informative questions providing much information on other topics not just pipping information and has been educational for most people here and as you say it works for you.An observation made from reading several of your comments is that you seem to point out you've been breeding these for some time,would you be able to let pople know how long you've bred albino carpets for as the way you state things makes it seem you have been breeding these for a long time now which just doesn't wash as the albino carpets haven't been around for that long and would only be producing second generation animals as of late.

I do agree that if something is working well for you why change,as long as you're having success consistantly even if it is a differing method to others the main thing is as long as it works well for you is the main thing! Many people have great success using different methods again with the end result being the same so as long as you're having uccess consistantly there's really no right or wrong method be they different or not.


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## pythons73 (Nov 19, 2009)

With incubating snake-lizard eggs there is no right or wrong way,many years alot of breeders would put the eggs in a sealed container floating in a fishtank...They didnt have the top of the range thermostats like we do,and after speaking with a couple,as long as the eggs were fertile,they had a good hatch rate...Whatever works well for one doesnt mean it will work for someone else,some people have had great success with the no substrate method over water,while others use the vermiculite-perlite method,Its a personal choice,if you decide to pip the eggs on day 50,basically its your choice,but those who do pip the eggs usually wait til atleast one starts to pip,again its your choice...I just hope that these hatch soon...Its been a great thread with alot of great answers....All the best.................MARK


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## monkeyboy (Nov 19, 2009)

Nothing to add here, just wondering if I win the lucky door prize of an albino hatchy for being post #400??? Woohoo....

Steve


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 19, 2009)

You might want to read the thread again Browns.


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## zulu (Nov 19, 2009)

*re These*

They gotta be close to crawling out,carpets and diamonds ive incubated at 31c were 53 to 56 days to pip,what are the time frames to hatch on average with darwins,from those experienced with the species,youve hatched clutches of darwins slatey how long did they take etc ?


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## Slateman (Nov 19, 2009)

zulu said:


> They gotta be close to crawling out,carpets and diamonds ive incubated at 31c were 53 to 56 days to pip,what are the time frames to hatch on average with darwins,from those experienced with the species,youve hatched clutches of darwins slatey how long did they take etc ?



Zulu I breed Darwins only for 3 years now. 
Moisture 50:50 vermiculite water.
Temperature in my incubator is balancing from C30 to C32 ( not to good thermostat. Heh.)
they hatch usually in 60 days. Last year the eggs have been much larger, and they hatched in 59 days.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 19, 2009)

Day 59:


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## cosmicwolf4 (Nov 19, 2009)

How cute they are, love the little faces. I've been watching this thread and find it so interesting. Thanks for showing it


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## kupper (Nov 19, 2009)

that one in the middle pic is almost at launching point


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## BROWNS (Nov 19, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> You might want to read the thread again Browns.


Why is that,I have read the whole thread so what have I said that you think is incorrect?


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## pythons73 (Nov 19, 2009)

Doesnt look as thou they have long to go now....Cant wait to see those when they leave the egg...MARK


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## smeejason (Nov 19, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Breeding in captivity, we have marked success raising hatchies to adult, generation by generation our success is leading to the downfall of the genetic integrity of our charges, the least we could do is let hatching take its course to seperate some of the wheat from the chaff.


 
If only we could use the darwin theory and strike the weak from our gene pool.. 
Hell we would have no gen y and it would cut the posts on this site by hundreds
maybe we should start with snakes and hope it rolles onto humans and stop saving the stupid.

cannot wait to see the end products CP.c.a


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## Dipcdame (Nov 19, 2009)

No-two said:


> I know of several cases where people have lost entire clutches cause the snakes couldn't get out of the eggs, had they have piped them, they'd all be alive now. Just cause theres a fully formed snake in the egg and it hasn't hatched yet it doesn't mean it hasn't tried. In atleast one case the snakes had no egg tooth, and couldn't slice the eggs.
> 
> But saying that I never pip unless I've seen one head.



Theres something I was reading a couple of weeks ago talking about young in the eggs not having that egg tooth and being unable to pip........ their opinion was that in that case, theyre best left to do it themselves, because the lack of the egg tooth could be a genetic defect and those that don't have that tooth to help them out could genetically pass that down as a recessive gene in future grnerations, which would cause a big problem! I think it's called the survival of the fittest?


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## GreggMadden (Nov 20, 2009)

Awesome pics Nic... 
I notice that some have a hard time catching on to reptile physiology, incubation stages and development of the embryo... I hope that atleast some of the people reading this can see it as it is...
An entertaining, educationlal thread...

Looking forward to more pics!!!


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## zulu (Nov 20, 2009)

*reThese*



Slateman said:


> Zulu I breed Darwins only for 3 years now.
> Moisture 50:50 vermiculite water.
> Temperature in my incubator is balancing from C30 to C32 ( not to good thermostat. Heh.)
> they hatch usually in 60 days. Last year the eggs have been much larger, and they hatched in 59 days.



Thanks for that slateman,your time frames are similar to those reported by Neil Sonneman in Keeping and Breeding australian pythons book thats interesting,so due now. cheers


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## Just_Joshin (Nov 20, 2009)

Nicole...Can you see any visible egg teeth as yet?? I can't see any in the pics.


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## JasonL (Nov 20, 2009)

Just_Joshin said:


> Nicole...Can you see any visible egg teeth as yet?? I can't see any in the pics.



They don't need them anyway :lol: .... they are hard to see though, and I wouldn't necessarily expect to see any from those pics


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 20, 2009)

I think day 58 had a pic of a tooth as well as yesterdays installment. On my way to go and take some pics for you lot.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 20, 2009)

Day 60: Almost time. Look carefully. You can see the egg tooth in a lot of these pics.




































































I took some photos for those who always complain about fungus on their eggs. I had some beardy eggs die about a week into incubation. I left them among the good eggs to just show how good eggs are supposed to defend themselves against fungus. If eggs go mouldy then there is something wrong with them. Those eggs should not be saved, this is also aiding the week to survive. 








Notice how the mould is not affecting the healthy eggs???


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## FAY (Nov 20, 2009)

In one of the last pics,a hatchy's head is a fair way out yet still looks like a lot of yolk it needs to absorb.
Is this OK? Will it come completely out without absorbing the yolk?


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## pythons73 (Nov 20, 2009)

Awesome photos Nicole,you can see the egg tooth quite well in most pictures,so has only the one crawled partly out,all the wait and negative comments looks like it has paid off...With anything theres always some that agree, while others will disagree...We all cant like and do the same things....Well done...MARK


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 20, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> In one of the last pics,a hatchy's head is a fair way out yet still looks like a lot of yolk it needs to absorb.
> Is this OK? Will it come completely out without absorbing the yolk?


 
That is normal, they wont get out until they decide. I think that one is just exploring. He/She went back into its egg after the photo session. What a show off!!! I should have made some bets.

Pic number 10 shows an egg tooth clearly. The reflect in the flash.


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## moosenoose (Nov 20, 2009)

Amazing pics! And even though I'm a little apprehensive about certain things, clearly your technique works. Cheers


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## redbellybite (Nov 20, 2009)

excellent ...hope all come out in good health ...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 21, 2009)

Day 61:
Well, they are starting to climb out of their shell. Beautiful strong hatchlings. Thanks for those who supported me.


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## Bearded_Lady (Nov 21, 2009)

They look like fantastic strong and healthy little snakes. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to experience such an interesting process . Well done!


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## phatt01 (Nov 21, 2009)

Congrats on your success. This has been a brilliant thread, thanks for sharing, and keep the pics coming as they grow....


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 21, 2009)

I might just add pics to this thread from now on every week to see how they grow and change colour. I cant have enough of these snakes.


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## torry666 (Nov 21, 2009)

Awesome, congrats.


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## Jay84 (Nov 21, 2009)

Yay ! Congratulations !!!!


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## kidsheart (Nov 21, 2009)

well done! 

glad you started this thread! has been alot of good reading!


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## azn4114 (Nov 21, 2009)

there looking good


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## firedream (Nov 21, 2009)

yay how exciting congrats.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 21, 2009)

Well done


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## reptileKev81 (Nov 21, 2009)

Congrats! They look great 
And a real amazing and educational thread for a newbie like me. 
Keep up the good work! 
Cheers
Kev


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## chrisso81 (Nov 21, 2009)

Where are the knockers now then? (not boobs)


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## Greenmad (Nov 21, 2009)

well done carpetpythons they look great, I would like to thank you for sharing this thread with everyone and continuing after all the back lash you got.


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## pythons73 (Nov 21, 2009)

Awesome stuff Nicole,well after all the negative comments whether to pip or not they finally had enough of their little home and now left it,Well done,stunning little things...MARK


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## wranga (Nov 21, 2009)

well done Nicole. hope this silences a few people. thanks for sharing this new method with everyone. by the way what was the hatch rate?


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## adz83 (Nov 21, 2009)

top thread thanx for sharing


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## Jdsixtyone (Nov 21, 2009)

Wow they are very very nice. Please keep on posting as they grow (feeding etc)
Jordy


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## Pythonking (Nov 21, 2009)

Well done nicole, all I can say is to new keepers who don't know what they are doing don't attempt this. If you do cut the veins before the snake is ready, you'll end up with a dead snake... Obviously nicole knows what shes doing to be able to pipp the eggs prematurely.


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## Steelers (Nov 21, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I might just add pics to this thread from now on every week to see how they grow and change colour. I cant have enough of these snakes.


 
That will be good to see. You're right, they're amazing animals and I can't for the life of me understand why some people want to cross them with other species.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 22, 2009)

Thanks all. I will try to keep to a post a week about their progress. The mother was a first time breeder. She had 9 eggs, with one dieing before or at 51 days. So i would say more or less 90%. I have cut other eggs this season too and have not lost one. When posting a thread like this, never say " I have never lost one from pipping this early". It always comes back to bite you in the bum. I hope it was at least interesting to see the development of their colour in the last 10 days of their incubation. I have some mixed clutches where you can clearly see the difference between albino and wild type colour development. I am trying to think if there is anything else I can post that would make for a good thought provoking thread?


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## wranga (Nov 22, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Thanks all. I will try to keep to a post a week about their progress. The mother was a first time breeder. She had 9 eggs, with one dieing before or at 51 days. So i would say more or less 90%. I have cut other eggs this season too and have not lost one. When posting a thread like this, never say " I have never lost one from pipping this early". It always comes back to bite you in the bum. I hope it was at least interesting to see the development of their colour in the last 10 days of their incubation. I have some mixed clutches where you can clearly see the difference between albino and wild type colour development. I am trying to think if there is anything else I can post that would make for a good thought provoking thread?


 thats great Nicole. 8 from 9 is fantastic, as was this thread. i had seen a picture of this method used in the states and spoke with one breeder here that tryed it with one egg with success. thanks again for posting this thread


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## cosmicwolf4 (Nov 22, 2009)

I admire the work you have done and the babies are beautiful. I know I would never have the courage to do something like this, so to see it done by someone else was great, what an education.
Thank you for this thread


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## monty31 (Nov 22, 2009)

hi CP i am 8 months into learning about and owning snakes and i found your pics very interesting as i have never seen it before could i ask how big are the actual eggs id emagine they would be quite small but im just trying to get better knowledge on these things as i would like to breed myself in the years to come. cheers Rob


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 22, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Derek Roddy wrote that to hatch a BHP in the US, you have to cut them. To me the statement itself infers that their lines are somehow unable to hatch themselves, a step in the fundamental design of an egg, that quite possibly by the pipping of the eggs, from what is a small gene pool to start with, that they have perpetuated animals of weak genetic integrity, by circumventing one of the first physical tests of natural selection.



Absolutely not true at all.

The eggs don't hatch very well because.... we as keepers, are not providing 100% accurate environment for them to to do so. We are still learning.
The BHPs that hatch here in the states... are a VERY strong line of animals and do nothing but thrive.... Given the proper care.
Plus, there are other issues... such as Farmed rats... that are pumped full of growth hormones, steriods, etc...This effect BHPs badly....as they don't process the extra fat content as well as.....lets say a carpet python.
Since I've started feeding a varied diet....I don't have the issues associated with hatching them anymore.
They also feed right off the bat with no issues.

A "weak" hatchling was only made "weak'..... by fault of the keeper.

A truly "weak" hatchling, will not make it to term at all. The egg will go bad, mold and die.

I've never hatched a "weak" animal....they thrive and do very well, breed great and don't see any evidence of disorders, spinal kinking, etc.....even 4 generations in. Those things mentioned... would be because of weak genetic diversity.
Watered down genetics...doesn't tell a hatchling not to hatch. They been doing it for MILLIONS of years...they got it down. But, it would tell an animal to be kinked, etc. I've seen kinked animals hatch just fine.....egg tooth and all.

If they don't come out on their own.....it's keeper error....plain and simple.

Cheers,
D.


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## Ramsayi (Nov 22, 2009)

DerekRoddy said:


> Plus, there are other issues... such as Farmed rats... that are pumped full of growth hormones, steriods, etc...This effect BHPs badly....as they don't process the extra fat content as well as.....lets say a carpet python.
> Since I've started feeding a varied diet....I don't have the issues associated with hatching them anymore.
> They also feed right off the bat with no issues.
> 
> ...



Derek,
Interesting comments about growth hormones fed to feeder rats.How widespread is that?

Also could you elaborate about the comment "they also feed right off the bat"? At what age on average do you get baby bhp's to feed voluntarily?


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 22, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> Derek,
> Interesting comments about growth hormones fed to feeder rats.How widespread is that?



All major rodent producers here do this. They have such a demand for the rodents....because of the high number of keepers here....in order to get the rodents to the customer...in all sizes (esp large) they have to pump them full of food.
In the wild....even if BHPs were eating a good many rodents...they still wouldn't get the amount of fat content from them.




Ramsayi said:


> Also could you elaborate about the comment "they also feed right off the bat"? At what age on average do you get baby bhp's to feed voluntarily?



Yes, since I've changed diet to mostly chicken, reptiles, eggs, etc....
they'll feed with-in the first 3 weeks of hatching, on their own....at least, the clutches thus far have.

Cheers,
D.


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## Ramsayi (Nov 22, 2009)

DerekRoddy said:


> All major rodent producers here do this. They have such a demand for the rodents....because of the high number of keepers here....in order to get the rodents to the customer...in all sizes (esp large) they have to pump them full of food.
> In the wild....even if BHPs were eating a good many rodents...they still wouldn't get the amount of fat content from them.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info.Regarding hormones being fed to rats.A great incentive to breed your own.

You are very lucky to have them feeding voluntarily so soon.Myself and a lot of other breeders wait 6 to 8 weeks before even trying them as they carry a lot of yolk reserves and they don't seem to associate rodents with food.


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## DerekRoddy (Nov 22, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> Thanks for the info.Regarding hormones being fed to rats.A great incentive to breed your own.
> 
> You are very lucky to have them feeding voluntarily so soon.Myself and a lot of other breeders wait 6 to 8 weeks before even trying them as they carry a lot of yolk reserves and they don't seem to associate rodents with food.



Word....
You know...that's another thing.
The babies that hatched from those clutches....didn't have that distended, gross looking yolk filled bellies.
They hatched looking like normal little pythons.
I'd be willing to bet... that in the wild.....they hatch looking like normal little pythons too.

And just because they'll feed for me...doesn't mean they'll continue to feed. Haha.
If I feed them bearded dragons....they'll always feed but, the rodents will sometimes though them and, they won't want them...even after they've fed voluntarily on their own for a few feedings.
Weird snakes...they are. We still have a lot to learn about those guys....I feel.

I've also noticed that keepers that breed their own rodents....don't have as many problems. But, I still feel that we're feeding them too much of a food item.... they don't regularly eat.
It would be like us only eating salt. LoL. It would effect us over time....for sure.

Cheers,
D.


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## Jason (Nov 22, 2009)

congrats on the hatchies.



CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I have some mixed clutches where you can clearly see the difference between albino and wild type colour development.



do you mean mixed as in hybrids?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 22, 2009)

Clutches with half of them het and the other half albino.


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## Jason (Nov 22, 2009)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Clutches with half of them het and the other half albino.



so they are all pure darwins? sorry i just confused by the term mixed.


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## Pythons Rule (Nov 22, 2009)

yeah jason all pure haha most times you'll get a mix of hets (look like normals but carry the gene) and albino's


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 28, 2009)

I just thought I would give an update on the hatchlings. They are currently waiting to have their first shed.





Just some photos of other clutches hatching, i cut these eggs on day 51.




















This one climbed out by itself with lots of its youlk still attached to it? Will be interesting to see how it abosrbs that mess.


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## Jarden (Nov 28, 2009)

wow that looks yucky lol


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## Pythons Rule (Nov 28, 2009)

lol jarden

wow very stunning nice work  with top pic hatchy on right is its taile kinked or is it just wiered in the pic?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 28, 2009)

It's just lying funny on the paper.


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## Harmony67 (Nov 28, 2009)

They are just gorgeous.


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## Pythons Rule (Nov 28, 2009)

ahh ok np they are gorgous lil thing well done


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## bongie555 (Nov 28, 2009)

congrats mate,well done.....awesome thread


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## moosenoose (Nov 29, 2009)

Very impressive thread, and lovely animals! Congrates!


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## Chrisreptile (Nov 29, 2009)

What are your averages for HetxAlbino pairings?

Do they work out to be 50/50 in the end?


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## azn4114 (Nov 30, 2009)

why are some of them so dark?(different coloration to others)


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## Chrisreptile (Nov 30, 2009)

azn4114 said:


> why are some of them so dark?(different coloration to others)



Because they are Hets (Heterozygous, they carry the gene....in this case, Albinism)


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## Bec137 (Dec 9, 2009)

Have you got any recent pics after their first shed or anything?
Congratulations btw, they are just gorgeous!


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## Chris1 (Dec 9, 2009)

wow, thats really really cool,...not that id ever dare to do that myself!!!


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## Kris (Dec 9, 2009)

Tough little buggers.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 9, 2009)

Here are some updated pics for you guys. Only a few have shed their skins. The first one that shed gave me a good bite!


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 9, 2009)

They look underdeveloped:evil:
JK looking great thanks for sharing


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## Ciircz (Dec 10, 2009)

Wow, They look amazing!
What kind of price tag do you have on them?


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## pythonz (May 22, 2010)

are any for sale?


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## wiz-fiz (May 22, 2010)

got any updated pics? I wanna know what they look like after a couple sheds


Will


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## WomaPythons (May 24, 2010)

this has been rly intrestin i have spend the last 3 hours readin every post and watchin vids congrats and if ur method works then keep doin it


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 28, 2010)

And so the season starts again. I thought I would nudge this post back up as it was very controversial last year! Enjoy reading all the thousands of posts


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## D3pro (Sep 28, 2010)

that looks so surreal lol... thanks for sharing


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## Pythons Rule (Sep 29, 2010)

hey CarpetPython do you have any pic's of what they looked liked after a few sheds say 4-5months? would love to see the progress of there colour after seeing them depelope in the eggs.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Sep 29, 2010)

There is one in the lucky thread from yesterday!


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## Simmo (Jun 4, 2011)

What substrate are you using? What type of wood chip?


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