# Cutting eggs - when?



## Waterrat (Dec 17, 2011)

"_Cutting eggs open early and 'triggering' smaller hatchies to come out before they're ready is a load of crap._"

I copied this statement from another thread. It inspired me to open up some questions about piping eggs and it would be good to hear on this subject from other breeders.

Those of you who worked with crocodiles would know that when ready to hatch, the neonates start chirping (inside the eggs), which sends a signal to the mother (guarding the nest) to excavate the nest. The noise and vibrations trigger mass hatching.

To pipe snake eggs, we handle each egg, cut a slit or a "window", put the egg down again and so we go through the whole clutch. That means; handling, change of pressure inside the eggs, sometimes loss of amniotic fluid and temporary change in temperature. Piping is usually done a day or two prior to the actual hatching. I wonder if by doing that we are sending a false signal to the neonates that it's time to come out. In the wild, they can take their time and cut through the the eggshell when they're ready, although the signal is given by the vibrations of the first snake cutting through and crawling over the rest of the eggs. Surely, the signal must be strong enough when the eggs are in a cluster.

In the past years I used to pip my eggs (GTPs that is) on day 49 and they started to come out on day 51 and onwards. Many of the neonates, even whole clutches came out with not fully enclosed belly, some even dragging egg yolk sac with them. They all came good but I wasn't happy with the situation. I then changed the system and now I don't cut the eggs until the first hatchling comes out. I never had the problem since.

Any thoughts on that?


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## Nighthawk (Dec 17, 2011)

We wait until the first egg has pipped on its own, but I like the idea of waiting until the first hatchling physically emerges. To tell you the truth I've never felt very comfortable with it anyway, it's pure selfish curiosity on my part and the couple that we've had still dragging yolk sac gives me the heebies a little.
What sort of time difference have you recorded with the new system as opposed to pipping on day 49?
Besides, manual pipping on a 'due date' reminds me of scheduling an unnecessary c-section. Unless there's reasonable cause for it, it shouldn't really happen. Everyone (and every thing I suppose) bakes them different. Saying that there have been no complications to date doesn't mean that manually pipping when none of the hatchies have poked their noses out or when there's not reasonable cause for concern isn't going to cause complications in the future.

Sorry, more stuff: have you noted any change in behaviour from before and after? More or less sluggishness, etc? Differences in size/weight, inclination to illness with age, more or less difficulty on average in establishing feeds? I'd be curious to know, and I believe it would be valid info for those deciding whether or not it is beneficial to leave the hatchies to emerge on their own or whether there's not really a difference.


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## Waterrat (Dec 17, 2011)

Some old-hands even reckon that hatchlings that come out on their own are stronger, more robust than those assisted by piping. I am not sure how such claim can be substantiated but lets give it the benefit of doubt.

Likewise, I can't offer any solid data but the hatchlings born under this new system are bigger and lively, no signs of lethargy like in those previous clutches. Come to think of it, I have to say yes to all you question in your last paragraph but I can offer any statistical results.
The danger of letting a whole clutch to hatch naturally is; if the neonates are weak or loose their cutting tooth, they can drown. It has happened and it's well documented.

On another subject - for the life of me, I can't understand or see a reason for cutting a "window" big as half of the egg instead of just a V-shaped slit. No need to explain the potential risks associated with such exposure, I just wonder if there could be any other reason but impatience to see the neos.


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## Wally (Dec 17, 2011)

I don't know a great deal about the subject, but I did read this article with some interest not long ago.

Turtles communicate hatching through their eggs - Australian Geographic

Granted it's about turtles, but interesting nonetheless.


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## No-two (Dec 17, 2011)

I've piped eggs on a certain day (day 51 for example) and I've piped them after the first one, it has never made a difference. You can pip and egg a week in advance and it generally won't come out. I've had them without fully absorbed egg sacs in the past but they've had very full bellies and it looks like nothing else would fit, I've had this from both eggs piped early and ones they've done on their own. I don't really pip eggs anymore the babies are good enough to get out on their own. I never cut a hole, just a V. 

This season I had a woma pip on his own so I piped the rest of the clutch, he came out the next day they didn't even stick their heads out of the slit in the eggs for about 5 days.

In the case of those carpets, its quiet obvious they're probably not healthy animals, the fact the breeder made a mistake and piped them casueing the to come out early and die is just an excuse.


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## Nighthawk (Dec 17, 2011)

Might be worth a long-term study with some hardcore documentation going on. It would be interesting to see if there are, on average, long-term effects/benefits to pipping early/natural hatch.
I guess at the end of the day it's a judgement call at this stage; as long as incubation temps are steady and there's no reason to suspect gestation periods would be altered too drastically there's no real reason why you can't pip the eggs yourself, although we do prefer to wait until the first in the clutch has taken the initiative.
I'd still like to see some numbers though, if anybody's done any long-term studies on this or if anybody's in the process of documenting the outcomes of both manual and natural pipping and some variants of each.
At the end of the day that sort of info would be valuable and could very well be the difference between 'living snake' and 'quality, strong, healthy living snake'.


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## JasonL (Dec 17, 2011)

Also the cutting of veins can't be any good imo, I agree with not cutting any eggs at all if possible, sure you will lose snakes, but at least you can try to learn what you are doing wrong, never know, you just might learn something over time


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## Waterrat (Dec 17, 2011)

On one hand, it would be relatively easy to regress neonate BW against egg BW of piped and unpiped eggs but there are other elements such as parent's fitness that can have a direct influence on the quality of the hatchlings.

No-two, Rico Walder addressed this issue of premature piping at his last talk and he elaborated about possible introduction on bacteria if the eggs are "open" for too long before the neonates come out. He illustrated real cases. It may not have happened to you as yet but it may happen sometimes. I don't see any justifiable reason for piping eggs a week before hatching.



JasonL said:


> Also the cutting of veins can't be any good imo,



That is exactly why can't understand why some breeders cut a big portion of the egg shell out. Surely, many blood veins must be severed by doing that.


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## Renenet (Dec 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> The danger of letting a whole clutch to hatch naturally is; if the neonates are weak or loose their cutting tooth, they can drown. It has happened and it's well documented.



This might sound callous, but if a neonate can't get out of the egg, isn't it likely to be a weak animal anyway? Or do weak neonates eventually catch up to their more robust counterparts?


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## Waterrat (Dec 17, 2011)

It probably applies in the wild, however, we do strange things with our captives, especially when it comes to diet / nutrition. Sometimes gravid females produce thin egg shells due to lack of calcium, sometimes the opposite. The egg tooth is not a very solid instrument and often breaks off before cutting through if the shell is too hard or too thick. Whole clutches have been lost in the past due to the neonates being unable to cut through the egg shells. That's unnecessary waste that can be prevented by piping the eggs.


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 17, 2011)

a subject that has been untouched for a long time... good to see people sharing around and spreading their opinions on the topic at hand  
in my opinion i wouldn't pipe the egg, because i believe in all natural... but on the other hand i have never breed before


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## Renenet (Dec 17, 2011)

That makes sense, Michael. Interesting topic.


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## PimmsPythons (Dec 17, 2011)

once one has pipped itself,i go through and pip them all with a small V
cheers
simon


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 17, 2011)

so is it any different with lizards( piping the eggs) or is it just used in snakes???


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## longqi (Dec 17, 2011)

Ive actually never pipped any eggs
But I also did once lose a clutch quite possibly because of a denser shell? as I had no reason to lose them
They were Womas if that has any bearing

I always believed in 'Cant escape egg, must be genetically weak'
But after reading this might be tempted to change my mind a bit

Great information


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## Bryce (Dec 17, 2011)

I pipped a clutch of GTP eggs this morning (day 49). I have never had an issue at all with doing this. I think that it all depends on your setup and how your eggs have been incubated an when they are meant to hatch if there is such a thing as when. I agree that early pipping may cause animals to Come out premi and the risk of infection/bacteria will build up. In saying that I have never had any issues with any babies etc.


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## longqi (Dec 17, 2011)

Im on day 53 with 2 clutches and nothing hatched yet
But those are being maternally hatched and sometimes take longer so not worried at all
Last hatchies were incubated because mother lost interest but they hatched mostly days 52 and 53
2 late ones day 55


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## solar 17 (Dec 17, 2011)

One point l feel has been missed is what about the neonates that are strong apart from a dislodged or deformed egg tooth, l have seen "well formed" robust hatchies suffocate and die through not be able to emerge from their egg.
l tried for a couple of seasons a good while back pipping on temp. rise for no apparent gain, these days l think like as slimbo said l cut a " small" v in the highest part of the egg of the rest after the 1st. one pips and for me l reckon l will stick with this method.
People on this thread can say about it not being natural but can these herpers point out what is "natural" in our hobbie, plus l personally feel sick in the stomach to see a drowned fully formed hatchie but alas has a dislodged or deformed egg tooth which falls away within 24 hours of hatching....but at the end of the day everybody has a point of view.
..........solar 17 (baden)


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## JasonL (Dec 17, 2011)

solar 17 said:


> One point l feel has been missed is what about the neonates that are strong apart from a dislodged or deformed egg tooth, l have seen "well formed" robust hatchies suffocate and die through not be able to emerge from their egg.
> l tried for a couple of seasons a good while back pipping on temp. rise for no apparent gain, these days l think like as slimbo said l cut a " small" v in the highest part of the egg of the rest after the 1st. one pips and for me l reckon l will stick with this method.
> People on this thread can say about it not being natural but can these herpers point out what is "natural" in our hobbie, plus l personally feel sick in the stomach to see a drowned fully formed hatchie but alas has a dislodged or deformed egg tooth which falls away within 24 hours of hatching....but at the end of the day everybody has a point of view.
> ..........solar 17 (baden)



I personally think the old missing egg tooth thing has a lot more too it than just a simple missing egg tooth that could "just" happen... More like the tooth was either soft or not formed correctly because of a calcium / nutrient deficiency because the female who laid the eggs carries her issues on or that incubation temps have been un natural at one point or more...


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## MrSpike (Dec 17, 2011)

I tend to wait until the first snake is pipped before I cut the rest. And even then I will only remove hatchlings once they have emerged completely. Nearly every time almost all of the hatchlings will have a cut elsewhere in the egg anyway.


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## longqi (Dec 17, 2011)

I was most definitely on the 'old school' thought pattern
But after reading this informative thread I have to admit I am rethinking things

Really interesting thread


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## solar 17 (Dec 17, 2011)

Just one more point as there appears to be an inference in this thread personally "l never" remove any hatching from the egg.
but as l previously stated l do cut a "small v" in the highest point of the rest of the eggs after the 1st. has pipped and personally l don't see any down side to this proceedure but obviously there are several points of view.
.........solar 17 (baden)


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 17, 2011)

bump


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## sara_sabian (Dec 17, 2011)

I pip all eggs within 12 hours after the first head is out. I would never remove a hatchy from the egg and I've had hatchies remain in the egg for days after pipping, I've never had any hatchies carrying around egg yolk- it would appear that they come out when they are ready and not a moment sooner.
That said I had an interesting case this year where one hatchy seemed to prolapse it's abdomen. I'm guessing it hadn't fully healed over and when it was roaming around in it's tub the wound re-opened. It seemed to loose a lot of yolk like material but was fine. Bit of a scare though.


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## CodeRed (Dec 18, 2011)

don't bother piping anymore. They'll come out when they want too, and if they cant on their own then it just wasn't meant to be


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## pythonmum (Dec 18, 2011)

I handle the eggs to move them to a hatching container (I incubate over water) after the first has pipped. When that first one has it's head out, I slit the rest, but do this while they are sitting on the substrate and just make a little slit. A few used this slit, but others prefer to make one or more slits on their own before emerging.


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## Bryce (Dec 18, 2011)

solar 17 said:


> One point l feel has been missed is what about the neonates that are strong apart from a dislodged or deformed egg tooth, l have seen "well formed" robust hatchies suffocate and die through not be able to emerge from their egg.
> l tried for a couple of seasons a good while back pipping on temp. rise for no apparent gain, these days l think like as slimbo said l cut a " small" v in the highest part of the egg of the rest after the 1st. one pips and for me l reckon l will stick with this method.
> People on this thread can say about it not being natural but can these herpers point out what is "natural" in our hobbie, plus l personally feel sick in the stomach to see a drowned fully formed hatchie but alas has a dislodged or deformed egg tooth which falls away within 24 hours of hatching....but at the end of the day everybody has a point of view.
> ..........solar 17 (baden)




Agree 100%


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2011)

CodeRed said:


> don't bother piping anymore. They'll come out when they want too, and if they cant on their own then it just wasn't meant to be



Imagine having a clutch of 20 GTP eggs and all of them die inside the eggs on the 12th hour because they couldn't get out. They were all red and one albino amongst the. "it just wasn't meant to be"? LOL


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## CodeRed (Dec 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Imagine having a clutch of 20 GTP eggs and all of them die inside the eggs on the 12th hour because they couldn't get out. They were all red and one albino amongst the. "it just wasn't meant to be"? LOL



in reality how many undeformed snakes have you had that didn't hatch once the eggs were full term. My experience (limited to 83 clutches of morelia and antaresia) is that the ones that don't hatch were screwed to begin with.


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

I always cut a small window either at ascertain date or when the first egg pips, I have never lost a snake in the egg that was fully formed. To me personally there are only advantages and if done properly no disadvantages.


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2011)

CodeRed said:


> in reality how many undeformed snakes have you had that didn't hatch once the eggs were full term. My experience (limited to 83 clutches of morelia and antaresia) is that the ones that don't hatch were screwed to begin with.



I haven had any (touch wood) but a friend of mine lost a whole clutch like that. The neonates looked all good, there was no sign of morphological abnormalities, small size or anything that would indicate that they wouldn't be perfectly healthy snakes. The egg shells were more rigid than usual that that may have been the cause of the disaster.


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## No-two (Dec 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> No-two, Rico Walder addressed this issue of premature piping at his last talk and he elaborated about possible introduction on bacteria if the eggs are "open" for too long before the neonates come out. He illustrated real cases. It may not have happened to you as yet but it may happen sometimes. I don't see any justifiable reason for piping eggs a week before hatching.



I think you're takeing what I'm saying the wrong way. I don't pip eggs for about 24hours after the first one has piped. I have piped them on a certain day in the past and the eggs have gone another week before coming out, I think the whole theory of saying you can cause them to hatch prematuerly is a load. I don't think piping them is sending them fasle signals to hatch, otherwise just handling them would be enough, without cutting them.


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2011)

No-two said:


> I think the whole theory of saying you can cause them to hatch prematuerly is a load. I don't think piping them is sending them fasle signals to hatch, otherwise just handling them would be enough, without cutting them.




I thing your theory holds as much water as mine. I am going by my own experiences but those are only observations, not results of a study. You don't handle eggs once in the incubator, do you?
Why do some neonates come out of their eggs dragging unabsorbed egg yolk attached to them?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> I always cut a small window either at ascertain date or when the first egg pips, I have never lost a snake in the egg that was fully formed. To me personally there are only advantages and if done properly no disadvantages.



Piping must allow some weaker individuals to survive and I imagine may increase the need for piping in future generations. Which I would consider a disadvantage. In saying that I have nothing against people piping.


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

Not necessarily, a neonate may just lack an egg tooth for example which doesn't make it weaker or as has been stated already eggs may be over calcified which may stop the snake from hatching, again it doesn't mean the snake is weak.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> Not necessarily, a neonate may just lack an egg tooth for example which doesn't make it weaker or as has been stated already eggs may be over calcified which may stop the snake from hatching, again it doesn't mean the snake is weak.



Very true, but the possibility also exsists that the lack of an egg tooth is genetic and will be passed on to future generations. Of course this won't be the answer all the time but the possibility still exsists.


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> Very true, but the possibility also exsists that the lack of an egg tooth is genetic and will be passed on to future generations. Of course this won't be the answer all the time but the possibility still exsists.



I don't disagree with you but evolution is a long and slow process. They're not going to loos the egg tooth in few generations. The egg tooth is their survival tool, probably the most important part of their anatomy without which they would go extinct very quickly.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 18, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I don't disagree with you but evolution is a long and slow process. They're not going to loos the egg tooth in few generations. The egg tooth is their survival tool, probably the most important part of their anatomy without which they would go extinct very quickly.



I agree, but take that selection pressure away and it can come about very quickly, especially if there are already recessive alleles for such a condition in the captive population. 

Once again I'm not saying don't pip, I just personally wouldn't for your average snake clutch but that's just me. I would take the same attitude towards really bad feeders. 

In saying that if I had a brand new morph I would take a different tune.


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## Chris1 (Dec 18, 2011)

.......


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## JasonL (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> Not necessarily, a neonate may just lack an egg tooth for example which doesn't make it weaker or as has been stated already eggs may be over calcified which may stop the snake from hatching, again it doesn't mean the snake is weak.



A snake in an egg without a egg tooth is weak, had it been in the wild it would of not even made it to first base.


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## Waterrat (Dec 18, 2011)

JasonL said:


> A snake in an egg without a egg tooth is weak, had it been in the wild it would of not even made it to first base.



It depends how you describe weakness.


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## JasonL (Dec 18, 2011)

Dead in the egg is usually pretty weak lol....

But I get what you mean, captive snakes can be seemingly fine to a breeder / keeper but far less "strong" than a typical wild counterpart. Most animals that are mass bred by humans will end up different in some form or another than their wild forms, and quite quickly too, yet still make acceptable healthy "pets".


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## Elite_Reptiles (Dec 18, 2011)

Really interesting thread Waterrat. I was only thinking these same questions last week... 'Do I' or 'Don't I'?...

Last season I had a clutch of het darwins, the first one pipped on its own, and on the exact date they were due to hatch (the dates I used came straight from the holy bible of snakes itself... "Keeping and Breeding Australian Snakes"). The next day came and no further signs of pipping, so I assisted by carefully cutting small v's into each egg. Over the next two days they emerged one by one (11 in total). Some seemed very lethargic, some were full of energy and wanted to smash anything within striking distance. So what to determine with this outcome? Well I'm not sure and it seems everyone has a different but logical story to tell.

This year, only a week ago, I had a clutch of 12 eggs (Albino Darwin x Jungle RPM). From the Keeping and Breeding Australian Snakes, I chose to take the 58 day option again for Darwins (Carpet Python - N/W) being the approximate hatch date. Day 61 come along and still no signs of hatching? Every night I would do a quick candle and saw plenty of movement within each egg. Now sure I was curious to see what was inside, but curiosity was soon over-taken by worry. As everyone has pointed out on here, are they ok, are they having trouble trying to escape, have they lost their egg tooth? IMO, there is nothing worse then thinking you could be harming or potentially killing an animal, doesn't have to be a snake either, but that is just me... nothing to do with being selfish or curious!...

Day 63 come along and I looked back into the holy bible and started thinking what if it's actually 63 days (Jungle RPM)? Still no sign of pipping the next day, and the worry was too much, so I pipped one egg just to make sure he looked alright (which he was). This particular egg I cut did not come out, not even a nose appearance and it was now 2 days later... day 65. Again the worry was too much, so I cut the remaining eggs. All looked ok and were doing well, except there was not much movement for the next 3 to 4 days before they started slowly emerging on their own. This took another 1 to 5 days for all hatchies to come completely out of their eggs on their own. Now I can honestly say again that at least half were bursting with energy, throwing left and right hooks. The other half were very lethargic and could hardly lift there little heads. So again, how do you determine this above scenario to what others on here have already written and experienced?

P.S. The temps I had for both scenarios above ranged from 28 to 33 degrees, mostly around the 32 degree mark as they are in a garage and it's very hard to maintain correct temps in a garage and living on the Gold Coast does not help either.

All 12 hatchies are doing really well now too.

IMO, we are medalling with nature as it is. If you watch this video of Tony Harrison doing a carpet relocation, you'll see what environment this coastal carpet has had her eggs living in for the past 50 days or more. You will soon realise that perhaps we worry too much, but then again if Tony did not intervene, how many would have actually survived if any at all? It's especially interesting and covers more on this particular subject at the 3:15 minute mark...

[video=youtube;A3RHtWUfNGY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3RHtWUfNGY&amp;context=C3c09d74ADOEgsToPDskJ8 9ELl86g_B77KzJxYhH-p[/video]


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## Dmnted (Dec 19, 2011)

Awesome read guys! 
I have my first clutch of jungles incubating and it's good to get some experienced opinions on "do I, don't I cut" when the time comes.


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## JasonL (Dec 19, 2011)

If your going to pip eggs, candle them with one hand and lightly draw cutting lines in the shape of a V in between the veins with the other, then gently shallow cut the egg with a fine and sharp pair of scissors.


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 19, 2011)

so do u/can u pipe lizard eggs???


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## Waterrat (Dec 19, 2011)

dylan-rocks said:


> so do u/can u pipe lizard eggs???



No.


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## the_brad (Dec 19, 2011)

Hey jungleman, when candling after piping did u notice a reduction in veins n vein size? In there final days they will suck up the blood. By piping to early u risk the chance of infection in the fluid! So they won't soak this up, n won't have the energy to get out. After loosing 9womas this year I won't b piping untill 48hrs after the 1st hatchling emerges


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## dylan-rocks (Dec 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> No.


 ohk kooll..... so why arint you meant to pipe them?? sorry just curious on the topic


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## Waterrat (Dec 19, 2011)

dylan-rocks said:


> ohk kooll..... so why arint you meant to pipe them?? sorry just curious on the topic



Because I am not a lizard breeder. Many lizards, e.g. geckos have hard-shelled eggs, how would you pip them?


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## waruikazi (Dec 19, 2011)

There is a very very good chance that the neonates died from something other than being pipped.



the_brad said:


> Hey jungleman, when candling after piping did u notice a reduction in veins n vein size? In there final days they will suck up the blood. By piping to early u risk the chance of infection in the fluid! So they won't soak this up, n won't have the energy to get out. After loosing 9womas this year I won't b piping untill 48hrs after the 1st hatchling emerges


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## Dmnted (Dec 20, 2011)

JasonL said:


> If your going to pip eggs, candle them with one hand and lightly draw cutting lines in the shape of a V in between the veins with the other, then gently shallow cut the egg with a fine and sharp pair of scissors.



Thanks for the advise Jason.
I am leaning towards piping one egg in particular which is on the top of the clutch.
It is quite hard compared to the rest and I think the hatchie would need a rhinoceros horn rather than an egg tooth to get out !


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