# Handling Gloves



## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

Hi all, I’m wanting to get some gloves that by snake can’t bite through. What do all of you use?


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## vampstorso (Nov 24, 2017)

Gloves are dangerous as their teeth can get stuck in the fibres, causing them to tear out and potentially get infected

What snake are you concerned about biting you?


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

I know it’s not a boa but it’s my first snake and I don’t want to deal with any more bites yet. She is usually good unless she is Hungry and I will only be using gloves for a couple handles then using hands but a stimsons


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## vampstorso (Nov 24, 2017)

Oh I wasn't judging you when I asked about snake type, 
I only asked so we could see if any suggestions could be made to minimise it happening. 
E.g. hatchies being so nippy from being low on the food chain. 


When do the bites tend to happen? 
Do you quickly pick the snake up without hesitations?
Are they defensive bites (quick bite then let's go), or feeding bites (bites and hangs on)? 

You could consider a hook as another way of preventing bites.

It's understandable not to enjoy being bitten lol
I've always felt for the -majority- of Australian pythons the shock of it is more concerning than the bite itself.... 
But then I remember my ex got slammed by a rather hefty gtp that left some nice bruises lol.


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

I pick her up with the hook and put her into my hand, they are feeding bites cause she comes up to my finger has her nose on it and licking it then opens her mouth and starts to coil, but the first time she coil a little bit but then let go, her old owner didn’t handle her so. I’m not very comfortable picking her up yet so I use the hook, but when she is coming up my arm I try to grab her with my other hand and she stops and turns right to the other hand and that scares me a little bit


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 24, 2017)

Tarron said:


> I pick her up with the hook and put her into my hand, they are feeding bites cause she comes up to my finger has her nose on it and licking it then opens her mouth and starts to coil, but the first time she coil a little bit but then let go, her old owner didn’t handle her so. I’m not very comfortable picking her up yet so I use the hook, but when she is coming up my arm I try to grab her with my other hand and she stops and turns right to the other hand and that scares me a little bit


Make sure you wash your hands thoroughly first. I always soap my hands up good, rinse thwm off, pat dry and apply a little Coles brand hand sanitiser. The alcohol smell of that will discourage any feeding bite...


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Make sure you wash your hands thoroughly first. I always soap my hands up good, rinse thwm off, pat dry and apply a little Coles brand hand sanitiser. The alcohol smell of that will discourage any feeding bite...


I wash my hands every time before I handle her, and I have a little bottle of dettol hand sanitizer and she bit me still


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 24, 2017)

Tarron said:


> I wash my hands every time before I handle her, and I have a little bottle of dettol hand sanitizer and she bit me still


Feed it more, would be pretty hungry in that case, considering it's latching on and not just snapping at you defensively.


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## pinefamily (Nov 24, 2017)

Feeding more often or a bigger size prey is a way to settle your python down, as I have discussed with you before.


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Feed it more, would be pretty hungry in that case, considering it's latching on and not just snapping at you defensively.


What should a 2 n half year old stimsons be feeding on? 


pinefamily said:


> Feeding more often or a bigger size prey is a way to settle your python down, as I have discussed with you before.


Yes I know just wanted some other opinions.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 24, 2017)

Tarron said:


> What should a 2 n half year old stimsons be feeding on?
> 
> Yes I know just wanted some other opinions.


Definitely nothing smaller than large adult mice. My little stimmy isn't a year old yet and is on weaners now.


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Definitely nothing smaller than large adult mice. My little stimmy isn't a year old yet and is on weaners now.


I’m feeding her a hopper rat 7-10 days


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 24, 2017)

Does the hopper rat leave a decent lump in her belly??


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Does the hopper rat leave a decent lump in her belly??


Yes for a bit while going down to the biggest part of the body but when there I’m pretty sure I don’t see it


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 24, 2017)

Ok well as Pinefamily mentioned, you need to upsize your feeders. Or feed it more often, perhaps every 5-7 days instead of 7-10.


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Ok well as Pinefamily mentioned, you need to upsize your feeders. Or feed it more often, perhaps every 5-7 days instead of 7-10.


Okay thanks, I have 2 rats left, I might get more hoppers and then after that I might go to weanlings


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## pinefamily (Nov 24, 2017)

I'd use the two you have, and go straight to the next size up, still feeding at 7 days.


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

You for real? A hopper rat is so big already on her mouth and throat, and she has a scar on her throat from when she escaped from other owner.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 24, 2017)

I think you're underestimating your python's capabilities...


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## Tarron (Nov 24, 2017)

I probably am, I am first time so don’t know much.


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## caz2y5 (Nov 25, 2017)

If you’re concerned about food size buy one of the next size up and give it for the next feeding If it’s too big she won’t eat it and you’ll know you’re feeding the correct size. 

I was hesitant with my first increase but she took it no worries.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 25, 2017)

I would agree that the biting, especially with coiling, is a feeding response. And if the previous owner didn’t handle her. Did the previous owner feed it in its cage? Was the snake removed from its enclosure for cleaning, and if it was, did the ex-owner feed it then? 

I am just trying to establish if the snake likely associates being removed with feeding. If so then you need to change that association if you wish to handle your snake without it biting. What you do to change this depends on what associations it has developed and how you want to go about feeding and handling.

Just for example, you might choose to always feed it at night and only ever handle it during the day. You might also use the snake hook always and only to only to feed it and always use a pillow slip over each hand to remove it for handling. Once the pattern is established and you are feeling more confident, then then you can lose the non-handling arm’s pillow slip and let see if it will glide into/over the hand without a slip. Don’t try and force it. Just give it the opportunity, taking it slow and steady and not expecting things to change overnight, especially with a snake that sounds like it has never been handled. Whatever, it is very important to be consistent and exercise patience and persistence.

As for feeding, an adult Stimmie will take two or three adult mice in a feed. So you may find it easier to do that and let it choose how much it wants to eat. That should satisfy her for a week and a half to two weeks. She should not need to be fed much more often than that.


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## Tarron (Nov 25, 2017)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I would agree that the biting, especially with coiling, is a feeding response. And if the previous owner didn’t handle her. Did the previous owner feed it in its cage? Was the snake removed from its enclosure for cleaning, and if it was, did the ex-owner feed it then?
> 
> I am just trying to establish if the snake likely associates being removed with feeding. If so then you need to change that association if you wish to handle your snake without it biting. What you do to change this depends on what associations it has developed and how you want to go about feeding and handling.
> 
> ...


The previous owner was useless, she fed it live, it bite her once and then stoped feeding and handling it, I use the hook to feed and hold her, I pick her up with the hook and put her on my hand, and I use the hook to put her on a feeding tub, if my mate isn’t here I put her in a pillow case for an hour or so to clean the cage.


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## pinefamily (Nov 25, 2017)

Try and feed in the tank. As Bluetongue has said, you need to change its behaviour. Feed it in the tank, and try and feed it the same time of day. Do this, as well as increase the food size, and within a very short time your python should calm down.


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## Tarron (Nov 25, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Try and feed in the tank. As Bluetongue has said, you need to change its behaviour. Feed it in the tank, and try and feed it the same time of day. Do this, as well as increase the food size, and within a very short time your python should calm down.


Okay, I feed in the mornings at the same time. Thanks for all the suggestions, but what would be good handling gloves?


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## pinefamily (Nov 25, 2017)

Why not hold off on the handling until you sort the feeding out? Bluetongue has offered some good advice for handling above.


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 25, 2017)

follow Bluetongue & Pinefamily's advice, feed in the house and only use the hook to take it out.This is how we treat all our snakes and they behave fine.
And forget about the glove !!


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## Bl69aze (Nov 25, 2017)

Gloves are only asking for trouble especially with a smaller python species (Antaresia?)

Just gonna injure ur snake and not help your “fear” of being bit, having to rely on gloves more and more.

Besides gloves won’t help when it bites you somewhere else.

Regarding feed sizes, do you know how much your snake weighs, if so you should be feeding ATLEAST 20% of that weight to her.
This picture should show you what pythons are capable of. just scale everything down


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 25, 2017)

It seems that there are a couple of underlying issues here. One is feeding techniques and the second is you are dealing with a traumatised snake. Live feeding of rodents to snakes is not advised by authorities for a number of reasons, including
it can be damaging to the snake. In nature, if a snake strikes at a rodent and misses, the rodent runs off. However, in the confines of a plastic tub, it cannot escape and its only defence is attack. The snake cannot get away either. So this can lead to a situation where a snake feels threatened whenever it is fed and so attacks to defend itself rather than just out of hunger. I do not know if this is the case but I would say that the snake was at least pretty stressed by its previous feeding experience and biting is its defence rather than hunger. So what can you do about it?

Change the manner in which it is fed so the existing associations are no longer applicable. Like pinefamily suggested, feed it in its cage: no feeding tub = no nasty food items that bite back. You can place the food item in front of its hide (on suitable sized sheet of stiff plastic, so substrate does not stick to it) and let the snake help itself. Alternatively, you can dangle the rodent in front of the snake, holding it with a long pair of tongs (feeder tongs) or grab tool. Certainly, no holding it with your fingers.

To let the snake de-stress, STOP handling it. Leave the poor thing alone for a couple of weeks. If you cannot do that, go and buy one that is an established handler. That’s how important it is. That includes no getting the partner to hold it while you clean the cage.

You will probably still want to use the snake hook when removing it from its cage for cleaning, despite me telling you will not need it if you wear pillow slips. And it’s clear you want protection from bites. What you can do is wear a god quality pair of dishwashing gloves underneath the pillow slips. Bunnings sell yellow gloves with the name “SHOWA” which would be excellent. (I use mine for washing up in hot, hot water.) Please do NOT wear these without the pillow slips or you will be defeating the whole purpose of helping to training the snake. The gloves are to boost your confidence but the real tool is the pillow slips. So immediately that confidence returns, ditch the showa gloves!

There are different ways to do things to achieve the same result. All I have done different is to take the time to try and explain why certain things should and should not happen. No matter what you choose to do, please bear those explanations in mind.

PS. I am sure others were thinking of fabric gloves, thick gardening type gloves or stiff leather gloves, both of which on their own are bad news and likely to cause more harm than anything. So the advice they gave about wearing 'gloves' is absolutely correct.

EDIT: Edited to incorporate correction pointed out in post #30


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## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 25, 2017)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Live feeding of rodents to snakes is illegal but also can be damaging to the snake.



Sorry BT but I must point out for the sake of clarity that feeding live is NOT illegal. (Not wanting to be critical)
I agree with everything else you say and live feeding is in no way seen as a good option. It is unethical, dangerous, cruel, immoral and many other words one could use and while it is met negatively by almost everyone involved in reptiles (and rightly so) it is not illegal.

Many animals have suffered horrific injuries and even death due to the live feeding of rodents.


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 25, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Sorry BT but I must point out for the sake of clarity that feeding live is NOT illegal...


Thanks PP. Much appreciated, as it is important to make every effort not to send out incorrect info… so I have amended the post accordingly. (I think I have been in WA too long. Lol.)


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## Bl69aze (Nov 25, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Sorry BT but I must point out for the sake of clarity that feeding live is NOT illegal. (Not wanting to be critical)
> I agree with everything else you say and live feeding is in no way seen as a good option. It is unethical, dangerous, cruel, immoral and many other words one could use and while it is met negatively by almost everyone involved in reptiles (and rightly so) it is not illegal.
> 
> Many animals have suffered horrific injuries and even death due to the live feeding of rodents.


I’ve said it before, and you’ve half said it In this post, but you say it’s cruel and all that... that falls under animal abuse which IS illegal. Maybe not as “feeding live animals” but animal negligence and abuse.


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## Scutellatus (Nov 25, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> I’ve said it before, and you’ve half said it In this post, but you say it’s cruel and all that... that falls under animal abuse which IS illegal. Maybe not as “feeding live animals” but animal negligence and abuse.


It isn't illegal because the welfare of a captive non feeding snake is paramount to a rodent in the eyes of the law. Some just won't take to feeding on a dead animal and need to be fed live. Feeding live rodents to a snake who would otherwise eat a dead rodent may be illegal though.


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## Tarron (Nov 25, 2017)

FYI, she is feeding on thawed.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 25, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> It isn't illegal because the welfare of a captive non feeding snake is paramount to a rodent in the eyes of the law. Some just won't take to feeding on a dead animal and need to be fed live. Feeding live rodents to a snake who would otherwise eat a dead rodent may be illegal though.


I think you need a permit and for someone to come get proof that your snake won’t eat anything but live feed.


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## Scutellatus (Nov 25, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> I think you need a permit and for someone to come get proof that your snake won’t eat anything but live feed.


No, no permit or inspection. It is legal but your actions could be challenged in court on a bad day.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 25, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> I’ve said it before, and you’ve half said it In this post, but you say it’s cruel and all that... that falls under animal abuse which IS illegal. Maybe not as “feeding live animals” but animal negligence and abuse.



You can try to interpret the laws however you think but the facts are that it is NOT illegal to feed live. Would it not be considered negligent of a breeder if he did not try to feed a hatchling live after he had exhausted all other avenues?



Bl69aze said:


> I think you need a permit and for someone to come get proof that your snake won’t eat anything but live feed.



Nor do you need any type of permit.

Please try to stick to facts when giving advice. If you don't know the answers please try to refrain from giving opinions that could be misleading. You seem to often go off on tangents on a post from people looking for guidance. Sorry if I appear to be critical but it's important that we try to give the best most correct advice possible on these posts as people with less experience may take what is said as fact when it may not be.


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## MANNING (Nov 25, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> ...you say it’s cruel and all that... that falls under animal abuse which IS illegal. Maybe not as “feeding live animals” but animal negligence and abuse.



-Turtles eat live fish
- fish eat live fish
- lizards/ skinks/ dragons eat live worms and grasshoppers
Yes it's aside from the argument but in all honesty ( to me) its the same story. These couple examples are all pets that are eating live prey. Hopefully the owners of these won't be fined for animal negligence and abuse
No, it's not nice but it's also nature.. right?
I picked this from the RSPCA site on feeding live prey to reptiles - probably worth a quick read

http://kb.rspca.org.au/can-i-feed-live-mice-to-a-reptile_256.html

(Yes it's an old article but it's the facts and still found on the website)

Just as a footnote - not targeting you mate, everyone has an opinion, just the word illegal can be stretched tooo far sometimes


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## Wally (Nov 26, 2017)

Practice the good advice given in this thread and keep the gloves for cleaning up after your critter.


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## ronhalling (Nov 26, 2017)

As a good guide to feeding sizes for Anteresia Sp i use food size 2 1/2 times the width of the snakes head at the widest point from 2 yrs old onwards, it is absolutely amazing how large a food item Stimmy's, Spotties And Children's can get down their throats.






( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) -ronhalling-


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 26, 2017)

ronhalling said:


> As a good guide to feeding sizes for Anteresia Sp i use food size 2 1/2 times the width of the snakes head at the widest point from 2 yrs old onwards, it is absolutely amazing how large a food item Stimmy's, Spotties And Children's can get down their throats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am just about to upgrade the feed items for my 2YO pygmy banded pythons from weaner to adult and my 1YO spotted from hopper to weaner.
We have a 7' coastal and it was amazing to see her swallow a large quail,it took a bit to get in and you could see it travel down the throat but it disappeared in the belly pretty quick so yeah pythons can eat some pretty large stuff


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## Tarron (Nov 26, 2017)

Hopper rat for a 2 n half stimmy might be small but the previous owner didn’t feed it, I fed her the morning and the hopper rat left a pretty decent bump


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 26, 2017)

Just jumping backwards here to a prior discussion...
There is a difference between ‘live food’ and ‘live feeding’ in common parlance – the former refers to invertebrates and the latter to vertebrates. Invertebrates are not considered to feel pain in the same manner as vertebrates and so there are pretty much no legislative restrictions on the using of them as food. So let’s just exclude them from the current conversation.

One thing that has always intrigued me (and I am going back nearly three decades) is how fish, as vertebrates, are seldom if ever included in ‘prevention of cruelty to animals’ type legislation. It’s OK to catch a fish by hooking it through the mouth and dragging it through the water against its will. Yet if you were to do that to a member of any other vertebrate group you could likely be prosecuted. Similarly, the use of live feeder fish is widely practiced and not considered contrary to the law. Intriguing… So I guess we can leave fish out of the discussion of legalities as well.

So what is “prevention of cruelty” to animals all about? Being ‘cruel’ is to cause pain or suffering. If you have ever heard a Common Tree Snake eating a frog, its almost exclusive food item in nature, then you would have to say the frog suffers and the snake is being cruel. For those who don’t know, CTS swallow frogs butt first (to stop the frog from using its legs and potentially kicking itself free). At least elapids and pythons kill rodents before swallowing them. Yet we don’t go out and slaughter every CTS or lion or whatever because they are cruel killers. We accept this as a part of the natural world. So where do we draw the line when keeping natural animals artificially? 

As far as I am concerned it gets down to not causing unnecessary cruelty. If you can get by without live feeding, then one should do so. If it is necessary, then it is necessary. So long as any suffering is not made worse (by inept procedures) than what would happen in nature, then ethically I have no issues with it. My issues with feeding live rodents lie with the potential negative effects on the snake if not done correctly.

Just as a general comment, something I have often come across is people who have an uninformed, idealistic notion of what the natural world is like. They seem to perceive it as a sweet, harmonious, gentle place. This is NOT the reality of it at all. It very much is a ‘jungle out there’! The vast majority of individuals born simply don’t make it. They get eaten or die of starvation &/or disease and then provide food for scavengers and decomposers. This is the cruel, harsh reality of those beautiful snapshots of coral reefs, rainforests and desert landscapes etc. So please, think twice before bandying around that word “cruel”.


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 26, 2017)

well spoken Bluetongue.couldn't agree with you more,nature is nature whether we like it or not.
It just happens


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## Bluetongue1 (Nov 27, 2017)

dragonlover1 said:


> well spoken Bluetongue.couldn't agree with you more,nature is nature whether we like it or not.
> It just happens


Your comments are very much appreciated by this old man. 

This is a topic of significance to me. As a Biology teacher in my working life I did my best to convey to students a genuine understanding of the real nature of the natural world – the good, the bad, and the ugly. With respect to the bad/ugly, Charles Darwin put it very succinctly centuries ago: “There is a struggle for existence.” Say no more...


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