# Sleeping cane toads



## insectovor (Dec 19, 2003)

On Monday night, a good friend and I decided to go frogging. It had been raining here in Brissie for a few days and this would be an excellent chance to see some frogs that normally hide during the day. We asked permission to go frogging on a property west of Brisbane and loaded with torches and containers we went out. As soon as it got really dark the call of the eastern sedge frog was heard in large numbers and it didn't take long before we saw a male sitting on a leave with its vocal sac fully inflated. After a walk outside we wandered into some of the many green houses this property has got. After hearing the call of a cane toad we were searching for the location. All of a sudden we were surprised with a stony creek frog (litoria leseurii) in full mating out fit (yellow). Totally taken by it's beauty we did not realise yet,that we were surrounded by at least 10 males as we discovered after a few minutes. We watched them for ages and then we discovered a beautifull female. She looked like she was gonna pop eggs any moment. We decided to leave the intimate process and wander further around the property. Not many other frogs were spotted ,but Cane toads yes!! We collected about 55 specimens wich consisted of 40 females and 15 males. All of the females were gigantic. In the back of my head I was thinking what great pets these cane toads would make. But quickly I came to the realisation that these cane toads are no good to the aussie enviroment. So these humble and well fed cane toads had to come to their final destination that night. The freezer room.
They are now known as the "sleeping cane toads"


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## saikrett (Dec 19, 2003)

good work!


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## Fuscus (Dec 19, 2003)

If anyone doesn't know what _litoria leseurii_ looks like here is a photo I took a couple of years ago.
http://150.101.58.70/thumbnails.php?id=Frog_Lesuirers_Frog
And has anyone else noticed, that when you go frogging in a new area, it takes about 30 minutes to spot the first frog then the next ten take two minutes total.


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## ackie (Dec 19, 2003)

i would prefer to use a golf club or a turbo torch on the toads.


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## Fuscus (Dec 19, 2003)

When I lived at the back of the gold coast in the 70's, we used to take out toads with a golf club, it is quick and it is cheap. At that time toads were really abundant there and I would take out 50+ a night (no comment please cichy).
Freezing is considered the most humane way to kill them, but you are leaving yourself open to legal problems if you transport live toads.


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## wattso (Dec 20, 2003)

Whenever this subject comes up, people will consistantly show how cruel they can be! Imo freezing is NOT humane, try sitting in a cold room at -25c for a few hours and see if you like it! Simply because a living thing is legally on the "hit" list, should not encourage cruel mindless behavior, such as the article about people throwing them on power lines recently. Regardless the fact they are pest introduced species, you might remember they are mindless animals without any evil intent whatsoever, its not their fault there here, they are doing what comes naturally, i.e. surviving in an alien enviroment. There is NO excuse for mindless cruelty to any living thing, native or otherwise. :evil: :evil: :evil: Shame on you people, golf clubs and turbo torches indeed!............other than that, good post Fuscus, I love hearing of your expeditions, well done!


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## ad (Dec 20, 2003)

Well done insectman,
Wattso, your views are from someone outside the range and who does not live with these animals, try and live in fnq for a while and then tell me what you think of the cane toad.
In breeding time you literally tread on them as you walk along. I was on 2 acres and used a ride on, I would mow around in circles and they would all go to the middle of the long grass. Then I would mow through the middle killing an estimated 1000 baby toads. I know I was doing good!!!
These animals are in absolute plague proportions, if they were in your backyard, I'm sure your views would be the same as swatting a house fly or mozzie. You'd be getting out the 5 iron too, unless you want them over the neighbours fence, then use a 9! lol. This is fun in Brsibane but it is a pointless excercise up north because you wear out your club too quick. Realize the situation before you sympathize with these horrid creatures and the real problem they pose, anything being done, cruel or otherwise, is a bonus, but its still not enough.
Freezing them is seen as the best means of killing them, condoned by the govt and different to freezing mammals.
Cheers
Ad.


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## Brodie (Dec 20, 2003)

I totally agree Ad. I lived with cane toads for over 10 years which is over half my life, I used to live in Innisfail an they were absolutely everywhere!! horrible thingd\s and ugly too even killed two of my next door neighbours dogs . I moved up here to Darwin and there were none here  but now they are coming up here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  oh well can't wait until fire cracker night .
Cheers


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## wattso (Dec 20, 2003)

If they are so bad there why not lobby your local government to do something tangible about the problem. Ad. If the pest was cute n furry,would you club them to death with a golf club too? like a fur seal pup? how many can you destyroy? I suggest your best efforts over a few years would be a piddle in the ocean, hardly making any impact at all. destroying an animal may be nessesary, enjoying it and gloating about it is not! I imagine they get to plague proportions, but then nature takes over, they will simply run out of food eventually and starve like rabbits surely? what does the fnq and n.t. government do about it besides say kill them at your leisure? bugger all by the sound of it. do rangers do collection patrols? do they bait them?" do they attemp to controll there migratiopn , atleast into residential areas?


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## mystic_herps (Dec 20, 2003)

Hehe,
I have refrained from commenting on this thread and Westhamsc's cross bred python thread even though I knew I could get a heated debate out of both lol.
See Slatey im doing well pmsl


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## wattso (Dec 20, 2003)

You are doing well Mystic, very bloody well mate, im proud of ya! well done, keep doin it mate  .........cruelty to animals is a time bomb for me, cant help myself! I hate it no matter what the excuses offered. Thanks for posting right where you did Mystic, you just made me realise im in dangerous waters! I hereby retire from this thread.


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## Artie (Dec 20, 2003)

Come on John, put a bit of spice back in to APS it?s been getting a bit boring lately. :twisted: :wink:


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## Belinda (Dec 20, 2003)

> Whenever this subject comes up, people will consistantly show how cruel they can be! Imo freezing is NOT humane, try sitting in a cold room at -25c for a few hours and see if you like it! Simply because a living thing is legally on the "hit" list, should not encourage cruel mindless behavior, such as the article about people throwing them on power lines recently. Regardless the fact they are pest introduced species, you might remember they are mindless animals without any evil intent whatsoever, its not their fault there here, they are doing what comes naturally, i.e. surviving in an alien enviroment. There is NO excuse for mindless cruelty to any living thing, native or otherwise. Shame on you people, golf clubs and turbo torches indeed!............other than that, good post Fuscus, I love hearing of your expeditions, well done!



Amen Wattso.


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## Belinda (Dec 20, 2003)

> horrible thingd\s and ugly too even killed two of my next door neighbours dogs



Riiiiiight.............


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## ad (Dec 20, 2003)

Cute and Furry like feral cats, yep I dont mind killing them either. foxs? rabbits? rodents? A plague animal needs culling, regardless.
Wattso, you havent pictured the situation correctly. It would be best to actually see it to really comprehend it. I'm sure we are paying some government officials lots of money to eradicate the cane toad and I am sure they are aware of the problems. 
We all do our bit by killing one whenever we see it, many people do, its a queensland custom. Piddling in the ocean or not, every bit helps. The radio organizes toad catching nights and they freeze all toads caught. So we are proud when we kill one with whatever implement is handy because we feel we at least did something to help.
What about carp, fishing is such a popular sport that involves killing an animal, so many people can do it because the fish makes no noise when dying, these same people cannot kill a rabbit. Brown Tree Snakes in Guam? I squash lots of cockroaches and spiders (hate them) too, how far does your conscience let you go?  
Cheers
Ad.


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## mystic_herps (Dec 20, 2003)

I am an avid carp culler 
(course fishing for European carp)
Many times I have park rangers on the creek bed beside me having a chat.And many times they have told me it is illegal to throw them back into the water way,I should leave them on the bank to die and feed the birds that also use that area.However on testing,I have noted that carp can stay alive out of water for up to 4 hours (prolly longer but I wasn't prepared to wait any more lol).So my method is simple,snap there necks and seperate their head from their bodies.All with the aprooval of officials 

I agree with culling exotic animals (ferals,pests etc).
As for the means involved,I guess I am neither for or against any method.I do hate cruelty to animals in general as I am 100% towards conservation,but conservation of OUR OWN native flora & fauna means culling other animals not of our land.When it comes down to the crunch I would prefer to be a cruel sadistik person that saved atleast 1 Australian animal than a nice guy that contributed to helping any exotic wipe out a native species.

You have to look at it with an optomistic view.Look at the larger picture I guess.As a wires member I have to occasionally euthanise animals that are too far gone.As sad as it is we must realise that sometimes killing an animal is for the best.Whether short or long term.Not agreeing with cruel acts on any animal,but sometimes it is necessary.EG,I am all for humane euthanisation,however if I ventured across a cane toad and had nothing on my property,I would not hesitate in crushing it with a rock.While this may be against my initial intention I would rather see it eradicated there and then rather than left for anytime to repopulate and cause further havok...

PS 
I have said all I wanted and won't remain arguing lol


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## wattso (Dec 20, 2003)

You said it well mystic, bravo. Its the mindset of those who have fun killing things i hate. Im not against euthanasia per say, its sometimes nessesary, I onced worked for R.S.P.C.A had to put down 20 to 30 dogs everyday. very sad. But thats not to say " it must be done so ill enjoy it at every opportunity for "the greater good ". ...........Damn, didnt i retire from this thread?  ....p.s. You are all ,of course, welcom to your opinion, I may not agree with what you say, but ill defend heartily, your right to say it! ~Cheers


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## Brodie (Dec 20, 2003)

What Belinda..whats wrong with what I said if u are talking about cane toads killing two dogs then well....... you do know that Cane toads are poisonus don't you????? meaning they can Kill things.........derr


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## wattso (Dec 20, 2003)

Easy brodie, give her a break, she is no older or wiser than yourself mate! be nice please ts xmas  p.s. Ad, my consciense allows killing of pest insects but thats about it. lol I feel guilty eating meat chicken, fish etc.


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## mystic_herps (Dec 20, 2003)

I believe those darn Toads have evolved to jumping into animals mouths and releasing toxins to purposely kill them lol.They are getting damn good at it too!

They are pretty toxic when it comes to consumption.I hear that a certain snake has now evolved to being immuned to cane toad toxin? but I cant recall what species  anybody know? I guess all snakes would eventually adjust,becoming immune to them at some point,but this would take generations and hundreds of years and by then many species would be extinct...


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## Brodie (Dec 20, 2003)

lol CC, just cause the dogs ate them it aint there fault 
Keelback and other colubrids such as banded tree snakes also seem to be able to withstand the toxin however only some specimens


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## Fuscus (Dec 20, 2003)

Wattso has brought up both good points and bad points. Freezing is considered the most humane way to kill a cold blooded animal. That may be because it is quiet, we are more likely to do nasty things to animals if they are not able to express there pain (here is a site that agrees with you Wattso on that point (NOTE : Not for the squeamish) http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html and here is one that disagrees with you (Again NFTS) http://www.fdrproject.org/pages/TDdispose.htm). It could also be true that is actually a painless way to kill a reptile, we a mammals body would go into a defensive mode while a reptile may just go into hibernation. More work is needed. Also I have never froze a toad, I hate the cold and would never inflict it on any other creature. It is also illegal to transport a live cane toad and taking one to a freezer could cop you a large fine.

The article also states a sharp blow to the head works. One moment the animal is live and free, next it is dead. Toads that haven?t been molested by people will just sit still, there is no holding the animal or repeated hits, just one swing and that?s it. The disadvantage is that the violence inherent in the system is obvious. I am * not * ashamed of killing toads that way and will do it again. Sorry Wattso, but as I said in the first post it is quick and it is cheap. And I think it is a better way to treat an animal then the way we treat sheep and cows. I agree with you 100% that we should not mistreat or torture animals (after all, cane toads have been brought to this country, they didn?t come here on their own accord).

Now there are two more ways of killing that are fashionable at the moment, pouring salt on it or spraying dettol on it. I consider both cruel and both should be discouraged.

Wattso has a point with the cute furry bit, culling of wild cats and horses always sets off screams. Personally I think we should actively cull sparrows, what birds would we have in our gardens if we didn?t have sparrows?


A few more links
http://www.nt.gov.au/dbird/dpif/pubcat/newsletters/krr/Krrjul01_files/BugsToads.shtml
http://www.au.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pests/msg0804303116332.html


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## wattso (Dec 20, 2003)

~ And I think it is a better way to treat an animal then the way we treat sheep and cows.~ Fuscus

I couldnt agree with you more on that point mate! same for poultry.
hence my guilt at eating them and contributing to suffering.

I really admire your easy going diplomacy Fuscus, I commend you for it mate. happy xmas


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## Fuscus (Dec 20, 2003)

Thanks mate, I enjoy our conversations.


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## insectovor (Dec 20, 2003)

Hi guys just to get a few things straight here................When I was out that night I had two options 1. Kill all cane toads that I caught, in a matter that would involve squasing, beating, poling, trampling etc. this however would have resulted in many dead bodies laying around on the property. This I couldn't do because this property holds a business and many decomposing cane toads would not been a pleasant site and dead cane toads might attract some of our monitor species or snakes and after consumption they would have died. 2. freeze the buggers.

Don't think I never kill any cane toads by giving them a boot up the bum, but 55 was just a bi too many.


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## wattso (Dec 20, 2003)

Insectovor, could you not have put as much effort into collecting and disposing of toad bodies as you might have while


> squasing, beating, poling, trampling etc. [unquote] ? I gather you collected all 55 and made considerable effort to cart them around with you [females were huge] then home to your freezer room? was this any less effort than it would have taken to knock them on the head [more quick and humane] and cart the dead ones home for safe , "tidy" disposal ?????
> Your third option mate, was to ignore the toads. You were looking for frogs right?


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## Fuscus (Dec 20, 2003)

You had a choice insectovor, remove to toads or leave then there. I have no objections to your actions .

My father used a novel method of killing the toads when he had his plant nursery. He would just throw them out into the open. He used to have a wild crow that would follow him and the crow would aproach the toad, wack it hard on the head with his beak (the toad was either stunned or killed), pick up the toad by the toads back leg and fly off. 20 minutes later the crow would return and resume following duty. We never saw the crow eat any part of the toad. From what I have heard they gut the toad and eat the intestines and some of the muscular tissue.


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## insectovor (Dec 20, 2003)

To my dear wattso, there was not any carting involved as we collected all 55 in a 25 meter radius and we collected them in a bin and the freezer room is on the property. Ignoring toads would result in no frogs in 5 -10 years that's why I had to undertake this mission. Also if all those females would have spawned the amound of eggs and tadpoles would have been fenominal, seen the fact that eggs and tadpoles are poisonous they could have done a lot of damage to the enviroment. ie native tadpoles feed on cane toad eggs and will not survive, native fish eat toadpoles and get sick or die.
My own opinion of knocking on the head is more difficult then it sounds, they are tough buggers and I've seen plenty getting away with just a knock on the head.


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## ad (Dec 21, 2003)

Why do people post when they dont have a clue what they are talking about? Gregory did have a very valid point. Armchair experts in Whitebread Suburbia??
Insectovor, you did the right thing, you deserve a pat on the back. Field herping and conservation are topics we all want to read and hear about. Keep them coming!
Wattso, try and post on subjects you have first hand experience of, taking an authoritive position on a situation you know squat about does not highlight your obvious intelligence, you end up annoying people and looking like a goose.


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## wattso (Dec 21, 2003)

Gregory is gone because he could not abide others right to their opinion Ad! I was merely expressing my opinion. im well aware of the extent of the problem, however this has no bearing on my opinion of killing things even if you beleive it should. People who consider themselves "experts" often have great difficulty accepting the opinions, and the right to express those opinions, of others. Why rubbish me ad, when such an expert as your good self could so easily educate me instead? If you are annoyed by the opinions and post of others you consider "armchair experts" then perhaps your on the wrong site?merry xmas to you too mate :wink:


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## ad (Dec 21, 2003)

Your welcome to your opinions Wattso, you start a wildlife fund for the cane toad. Set up your ranger patrols and relocate them back to their country of origin. Poor wittle cane toads. It takes a good man to stand up and defend his right to his opinion, it also takes a good man to realize his opinion is wrong and back down. Even after insectovor described the devastation on the frog population you still suggest he leave 55 breeding cane toads in that environment. Freezing them is the best method to kill them. They are strong and can take a few good hits to kill them which is usually messy. You are not listening, just expressing your opinion and defending your right to express your opinion - you havent stopped to think if your opinion is valid. 
Am I at the wrong site?, Is it becuase I dont tolerate fools and grandstanders? What is the reason your asking me to leave?

(Edited by Admin)


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## Nicole (Dec 21, 2003)

Ok, enough wattso and ad.
Agree to disagree whilst you are both being civil to one another.
I think you have both expressed yourselves to the extent where everyone understands your viewpoints, and further discussion on that aspect is obsolete.


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## wattso (Dec 21, 2003)

Validity of opinion is purely subjective Ad. no-one is asking you to leave, just to stop ridiculing and rubbishing others who have contrary feelings to your own. All I have said is I disagree with unnessesary cruelty shown by those who take it apon themselves to be Eco-Avengers. Just because eradication of this pest is nessesary does not mean you should abandon all sense of humanity. you disagree, and good for you. lets leave it right there as nicole suggest. merry xmas. :wink:

(Edited by Admin)


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## Magpie (Dec 21, 2003)

Watsso, you ignore several well put, clearly presented posts that show you to be wrong, then claim the moral highground becasue someone becomes exsasperated with you?

(Edited by Admin)


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## wattso (Dec 21, 2003)

Im wrong because I disagree with cruelty! tough! merry xmas to you to Magpie! :wink:


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## Magpie (Dec 21, 2003)

So let me get this straight... It's cruelty to give toads the most humane death possible under the circumstances, but not cruelty to leave them there where they will casue untold numbers of native fauna to die in agony?


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## Brodie (Dec 21, 2003)

Actually I was reading a booklet thing at work on eutanaseia(sp?) of reptiles. and freezing actually isn't considered a humane way of killing ectothermic animals. Will try bring the booklet home and scan some pages in next time I am at work. anyway whats it matter?? its a friggen cane toad who cares if it dies as long as it is dead!

added:


> So let me get this straight... It's cruelty to give toads the most humane death possible under the circumastances, but not cruelty to leave them there where they will casue untolf numbers of native fauna to die in agony?


I totally agree Mags!


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## wattso (Dec 21, 2003)

The humanity of freezing a living thing to death is debatable Magpie.
How many cane toads returned from death to tell you it was painless and humane? I didnt say dont kill them, i said I didnt think freezing was a humane method.period.


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## wattso (Dec 21, 2003)

anyway whats it matter?? its a friggen cane toad who cares if it dies as long as it is dead! ~brodie

I dont think you would agree with that if you took your dog to the vet to be put down and he said ill just chuck it in the freezer! anyway whats it matter?? its a friggen dog, who cares if it dies as long as it is dead!


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## Magpie (Dec 21, 2003)

OK, then obviously someone else posted these comments:
-Your third option mate, was to ignore the toads. You were looking for frogs right? 
-I imagine they get to plague proportions, but then nature takes over, they will simply run out of food eventually and starve like rabbits surely.


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## Brodie (Dec 21, 2003)

Yeah if I took MY dog down which I have a bond with, but if it was some dog I didn;t know I wouldnt have a problem with it. Bad comparison anyway cane toads are unwelcome pests


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## Slateman (Dec 21, 2003)

My GOT Frozen canetoad is good enough to me. Hate this things.
Sorry canetoads lowers.


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