# Take a look please.



## Lizard (Aug 3, 2006)

http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

*yawn*


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## Australis (Aug 3, 2006)

Very good


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## NoOne (Aug 3, 2006)

About time something was done about that, some big names on that list to, i saw Mark O'shea in there somewhere, good to see it's got international support.


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## soulweaver (Aug 3, 2006)

I have signed, couldn't agree with it more.

I agree duga, good to see some big names backing it.


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## Kersten (Aug 3, 2006)

Perhaps it should be pointed out to those who perhaps haven't read through all the pages on the site that the animal in the picture hasn't been anesthetised for surgery, and there's no pain relief of any kind given to them before, during or after. That's nothing to yawn at IMO.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

And maybe I should point out that what you have just pointed out has already been pointed out 10000 times on this site as well as 2 handfuls of others. I yawn because I am sick of hearing about Ray &amp; his un-ethical proceedure.


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## stencorp69 (Aug 3, 2006)

*yawn* *yawn* &amp; get a life, if it was anyone else it would barely raise a whisper. 



> In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

Agreed.
And even if the snakes were anesthetised before surgery the majority would still be whinging about it because "Elapids should remain venomous"


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## mertle (Aug 3, 2006)

I don't think it matters how many times we hear about it, it still needs to be stopped, i signed it because it needs to be done.


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## OuZo (Aug 3, 2006)

Call yaselves Herpetologists do ya? :x 

ADMIN!!! CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A VOMIT SMILEY IN HERE!?!


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## NoOne (Aug 3, 2006)

mertle said:


> I don't think it matters how many times we hear about it, it still needs to be stopped, i signed it because it needs to be done.



Exactly, does it really matter how many times we have heard it, someone has finally done something about it.


So if you think it's wrong sign it, if you don't care then don't sign it, but don't whinge about the people who are signing about it or the fact that something has been done.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

Rays argument will be that they serve an educational purpose for his displays. For that reason it will not be stopped. Better, safer &amp; more humane techniques during surgery may be employed at the most, but you won't be able to put a complete stop to it.

And I garuntee even if/when that was to happen we will still read several hundred posts about how if Ray wanted non venomous snakes he should keep pythons etc.


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## Kersten (Aug 3, 2006)

:lol: :lol: Yes Sir Mr Stencorp Sir (whoever you are?) you let me know how I go about doing that and when I officially have a life now wont you? :lol: :lol: 

Anyway to get back to the topic at hand and away from petty personal judgements....

Yes actually I would still voice my concerns J and C....for the simple fact that I don't merely have one reason for objecting to it but many well considered reasons. I didn't realise we were only allowed one particular objection :wink: 

(oh and PS...I actually tried to circumvent the Hoser debate in a thread the other day due to it's not being appropriate to the message the person who started the thread was trying to get across...this however is a time when it's actually the topic at hand...so where's the problem in discussing it maturely?)


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

There is no problem in discussing it.
And there is no problem in yawning about it either.
However you chose to direct your attention to me so I replied.
So what exactly is your objections Kersten?

Ouzo, no I do not consider myself a Herpetologist as I have had no formal &amp; accredited training in that area. I am merely a Reptile keeper. How about you?


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## Australis (Aug 3, 2006)

The petition is against the illegal manner Ray performs the voiding.

Im sure he would say he does it for education, but in reality hes doing it for profit.



Matt


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

Nothing illegal in what he does.
He has advertised publically what he does &amp; has even included photo evidence. As for profit he does not sell the animals he displays them which will just help his case (claiming educational purposes)

My point is that the most anyone can ask for is more humanity in his approach. Do you really think this is the first time people have tried to stop venomoids?


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## Kersten (Aug 3, 2006)

Advertising soemthing doesn't make it legal, does it? I see an awful lot of research and reasons on that site which justify why the people who've started the petition consider it to fall outside the law....


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## OuZo (Aug 3, 2006)

> My point is that the most anyone can ask for is more humanity in his approach. Do you really think this is the first time people have tried to stop venomoids?



How about *some* humanity?

I'm not even bothering to assess the actual venomoid issue. It's the manner in which it's done. If someone took their snake to a reptile vet and asked for it to be voided that's fine. But you don't operate on anything without an anaesthetic :roll: . How could you justify that?


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## MrBredli (Aug 3, 2006)

> But you don't operate on anything without an anaesthetic . How could you justify that?



Touché.


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## NoOne (Aug 3, 2006)

Yes it's about the way he voids the snakes, he's not a vet therefore it is illegal to void the snakes and the he does it is barbaric.
If he wants them for shows then like Ouzo said he should take them to a vet and have it done properly or become a licensed vet.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

No advertising something does not make it legal, but it sure does make a great case against the person if it is illegal dosn't it? . As I said do you really think nobody has ever used the pictures &amp; text as evidence against him in the past? So what other issues do you have regarding venomoids Kersten?

I agree Ouzo &amp; I have not tried to justify anything he does.
Don't for 1 minuter think that I am all for Ray I am just against talkign about him 24/7 like others here.
Majority have other issues with Ray other than the humanity issue, as I said even if he was forced to use proper techniques members will still remain against the act regardless. And if the proceedure was done by VETS members will still be against it &amp; the owners.

Its a no win situation as opinions vary. Personally I don't have any problems with venomoids provided they are done humanely &amp; ethically. However alot of others have a problem regardless of how it is performed so you can see it will remain a never ending fight.


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## NoOne (Aug 3, 2006)

Well if you have a problem with how he does it J and C then you should sign it, it's not done humanely.


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## Kersten (Aug 3, 2006)

The other issues I have are that 1) there is no good reason to void elapids that I've heard, we would consider meangingless surgery on humans wrong and dangerous so why is it different for snakes? 2)it sends a dangerous message to kids and people who aren't educated about snakes....his argument for voiding is that people should be able to touch voids for direct comparison. I don't know about you guys but it worries me that people see these snakes he plays with which are by all accounts very docile animals and get the idea that all elapids are that placid....you can't tell me that some little kid isn't going to think that they're all that friendly. 

I could go on for hours, but I've (despite what you may have heard  ) got a life and kids that need a bedtime story. The point behind the petition is simply that the procedure is barbaric...and it is, it's in violation of cruelty to animal laws so for the purposes of this coversation I guess that would be the focal point. And whether it's been said before or not it's a damn good point. I wouldn't let someone strap any of my animals down and cut them apart to further their egotistical desire to "be the first and best"....hell I wouldn't let someone do it to my animals in order to make them safer for us to keep! They are as they are for a reason and it's not up to anyone to play god with them in such a brutal fashion. If people don't consider them appropriate to keep due to their venom then the answer is to not keep them.....not to simply butcher them. I wouldn't rip a dog's teeth out and I certainly wouldn't condone it if other people chose to....why would I agree with this?


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

1.
Are you also against docking dogs tails? Including rottweillers etc
Is that not a meaningless proceedure? I have seen rotty's with tails (ugly things) that have seemed to still be alive 

2.
Any snake performed for display can be mistaken by a child as a friendly animal when infact could be a danger. A wild Olive or Coastal could suffocate a child. A beardy could bite etc. The difference being between Pythons &amp; Venomoids in the display is that the venomoids WOULD BE spoken about as a highly dangerous animal that is venomous, where as the python would be displayed as a non venomous harmless snake. NOW which animal do you think is a greater danger for a child? 1 that they have been warned about is dangerous or 1 that they have been told is harmless?


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## Kersten (Aug 3, 2006)

Yes I am against docking tails....I think perhaps you've misunderstood. I'm not saying that any animal that has surgery will die...that would be stupid. I'm saying that when a human goes in for surgery we're given lecture upon lecture about the gravity of surgery and the associated risks. Those risks are also there for animals. It doesn't always happen....but why risk it?

I think that you've perhaps underestimated the twisted way kids think at times. If you're standing there telling them one thing but your actions say something completely contrary....do you want to guess which message they go with? I am not saying that elapids are more or less dangerous to anyone than pythons...I'm pointing out the fact that kids (and some adults) simply don't get the message when they're being shown something which contradicts the verbal message being put across.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

Point taken.
So what if it wasn't a hands on experience in the display?
(your reaction will now be then there is no reason for him to void them lol)


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## NoOne (Aug 3, 2006)

Theres no point debating it, if you agree with the petition sign if you don't, don't sign it.


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## Australis (Aug 3, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> 2.
> Any snake performed for display can be mistaken by a child as a friendly animal when infact could be a danger. A wild Olive or Coastal could suffocate a child. A beardy could bite etc. The difference being between Pythons &amp; Venomoids in the display is that the venomoids WOULD BE spoken about as a highly dangerous animal that is venomous, where as the python would be displayed as a non venomous harmless snake. NOW which animal do you think is a greater danger for a child? 1 that they have been warned about is dangerous or 1 that they have been told is harmless?




Alot of Children wouldnt care what was being said at all, all they see is "snakes" being handled. 

He can still talk and use a hook at the same time!

Ray is nothing more than a ego-maniac.

Matt


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## Kersten (Aug 3, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> So what if it wasn't a hands on experience in the display?
> (your reaction will now be then there is no reason for him to void them lol)


Well yeah of course that would be my reaction....it's called logic.


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## soulweaver (Aug 3, 2006)

If you want to bring kids into this debate, most children like the bigger snakes i.e pythons, they are after impressive, they don't understand the wole venomous thing.

I think it should be stopped, but i don't see the point in debating the whole issue, just as duga has said, twice now i beleive


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 3, 2006)

Yeah, that is why I answered my own question and laughed about it. Anyway it has been fun &amp; games guys but I am running out of arguments 

Anyone have any news about Steve Irwin? lmao


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## Nome (Aug 3, 2006)

I don't know how anyone can say it's not illegal anyway :?: 

There are laws that stop people from hacking into dogs and cats without a vet license and without anesthesia....obviously this law covers reptiles as well.


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## soulweaver (Aug 3, 2006)

I think in that sort of case Nome that the powers at be, view it on what is sociably acceptable with-in communities. 

For too long we have been taught to fear snakes, and that they can only cause harm. Slowly over years this will change, but it will take a long time. So this petition represents a chance for the future, if not anything else.


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## cris (Aug 3, 2006)

If/when it goes to court it will be interesting to see the judges responce when the best thing the prosecution can come up with is a petition.

IF the snake does have full feeling thoughout the surgery its almost as cruel as fishing with a hook, apart from it being supervised and given the required medical treament etc. I would sign a petition against fishing before signing this witch hunt and i like going fishing.

I wonder how long this thread will last?


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## stencorp69 (Aug 3, 2006)

> Call yaselves Herpetologists do ya?



Na - just like reptiles



> Yes Sir Mr Stencorp Sir (whoever you are?) you let me know how I go about doing that and when I officially have a life now wont you?



Hi Kersten, I'm sorry you're so sensitive about having a life or not - I was referring to the original poster of the thread. Your sig was used to highlight the soap box hypocracy

I'm Sten


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## Greebo (Aug 3, 2006)

Why is it that some people here have to make every thread about themselves and what they believe? I thought this thread was about Ray Hoser....


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## Kersten (Aug 3, 2006)

Lol well gee Sten there's no need to apologise for a nonexistent issue, I'm not sensitive I just think it's funny when people on the net tell others to "get lives"...I always wonder how they think they're qualified to judge :wink: I'm not quite sure what to say about posting my sig to highlight soapbox hypocrisy....here I always thought I'd posted that as my sig because I'm a fan of Hunter S Thompson and not to make a point :lol: 

SW I hope you're right about this representing a chance for greater understanding....it'd be a nice change.


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## MrBredli (Aug 3, 2006)

> IF the snake does have full feeling thoughout the surgery its almost as cruel as fishing with a hook



To the best of my knowledge, fish don't feel pain..?


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## NoOne (Aug 3, 2006)

Doesn't really matter if fish can feel pain or not......it's about snakes lol.


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## Australis (Aug 3, 2006)

cris said:


> If/when it goes to court it will be interesting to see the judges responce when the best thing the prosecution can come up with is a petition.



It wouldnt go to court based only on this Petition :roll:

Ray Hoser is performing a illegal operation that he isnt qualified for!

Even if your all for the Voiding of venomous snakes, the fact remains Ray Hoser shouldnt be doing it himself.




> IF the snake does have full feeling thoughout the surgery its almost as cruel as fishing with a hook, apart from it being supervised and given the required medical treament etc. I would sign a petition against fishing before signing this witch hunt and i like going fishing.



Your right you should always atleast put the fish in your fridge first :lol: 

Matt


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## MrBredli (Aug 3, 2006)

> Doesn't really matter if fish can feel pain or not......it's about snakes lol.



Snakes?? Oh, i thought it was about Shane seeking revenge for the threats Ray made against him? :lol:


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## cris (Aug 3, 2006)

> To the best of my knowledge, fish don't feel pain..?


I cant say i have ever heard of that, is their anything i could read or see to confirm that?

Has it actually been proven that snakes have full feeling when torpid? 
I remember reading something about this somewhere has anyone got a link?
Some stuff i read said freezing ecotherms is a cruel method of killing them, other ppl say its humane if the animals are cooled slowly first before being frozen. What are the facts relating to this issue and where can i read about it?
After all thats what this whole thing is about.


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## NoOne (Aug 3, 2006)

Not according to the petition.


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## tyrone (Aug 3, 2006)

There r plenty of ppl perfomrning this operation on vens (based on hosers methods) r they all going to get a petition of their own too??


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## peterescue (Aug 3, 2006)

tyrone said:


> There r plenty of ppl perfomrning this operation on vens (based on hosers methods) r they all going to get a petition of their own too??



que', who? Only other person i know of is a licensed vet. At least here in Australia and as far as I know they wont do it for private keepers.


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## Boxing_pelican (Aug 3, 2006)

tyrone said:


> There r plenty of ppl perfomrning this operation on vens (based on hosers methods) r they all going to get a petition of their own too??



The point is he is doing it illegaly (he is not a licenced vet, nor has he gotten any type of approvel to do these operations)


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## AxSnake (Aug 3, 2006)

I think what he's doing is outrageous! Nobody who isn't qualified should be doing surgery on any animal! I'd love to see someone do a similar surgery on HIM without proper sedation or pain relief.

BTW - to the person who posted about docking tails - tail docking was made illegal in NSW in 2004. Just so you know.


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## indicus (Aug 3, 2006)

About bloody time......
It's a joke....a real herper can educate/handle an elapid without muting the animal.
I feel that if you support this pratice; your a clown; not a herp lover.
Whether they can survive with or without venom isnt the point.....
I hope they can stop this disgusting practice.


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## imported_Acanthophis (Aug 3, 2006)

Hey all,
The petition is certainly worth signing as there are many issues surrounding inexperienced people performing this kind of surgery. It can only send a mixed message to the public, that although we (the reptile keeping community) promote and care about snakes we are willing to allow the mutilation of these animals to satisfy individual needs. It's just not on. :x . How many Monitor keepers would support ripping out a Lace Monitor's claws to prevent lacerations, or removing a Python's teeth so it cant cause injury when it bites.
It is insane to believe that surgery without anaesthesia doesn't cause pain and distress to the animal.
Furthermore, there are many references regarding the regeneration of venom producing tissue if the gland and duct is not completely removed. Just imagine what would happen if Ray hands one of his venomoid snakes to an unsuspecting member of the public, the person is bitten and is envenomated. Such an incident could result in the banning of reptile displays, closing off any hope of educating the public, not to mention potentially ruining the livelyhood of many displayers/demonstrators that rely on their business to survive.
This is not a witch-hunt on Ray. However, he is the one that has drawn all the attention to himself by publishing the accounts and photographs of these horrific events. What sort of a reaction did he really expect?
Let me just say that I don't understand or agree with the concept of venomoids as a whole. Rays justification of using these animals for educational purposes wears a bit thin. I have been in wildlife education for many years using venomous species without any problems. I dont believe there is ANY educational value in allowing a member of the public to hold a venomous (venomoid) snake that cant be satisfied with holding or touching a Python. I don't focus my education to the public on the fact that although these animals are venomous and they're not out to attack people. This point can be relayed in a single sentence :roll: . Real education is teaching people how these animals have evolved to survive in their given habitats, ecology etc.
Will signing the petition bring charges against Ray, maybe, maybe not. What it will do is voice the opinions of those of us who disagree with this cruelty and bring the issue to the attention of authorites.
Safe and responsible handling techniques come down to a sound knowledge of the species you are working with. If individuals are not willing to put in the work and gain the knowledge, they don't deserve the privilege to work with these beautiful and fascinating animals.
All the Best,
Chris.


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## indicus (Aug 3, 2006)

Very well said Chris....


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## kwaka_80 (Aug 3, 2006)

Good to see i came out of this one without even a singe ... Im usually the one getting burnt


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## peterjohnson64 (Aug 3, 2006)

I get to see a lot of petitions in my line of part time work. They rarely do any good. if we get 5,000 people to sign then we have, what, 0.1% of the population. The best way to get action is to deal with the politicians direct. It is just so easy for them to dismiss names on paper but humans sitting in front of them are much harder. I have signd the petition out of respect for what it is saying. But it wil go nowhere.

Anyone here a member of the Victorian opposition?


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## MrBredli (Aug 4, 2006)

> The best way to get action is to deal with the politicians direct. It is just so easy for them to dismiss names on paper but humans sitting in front of them are much harder.



Very good point Pete, that makes alot of sense.


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## indicus (Aug 4, 2006)

Sad, but true Peter....
I do however agree with the direct approach;
maybe we could take out the glands of the supporters of this practice.... :evil:


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## Retic (Aug 4, 2006)

I'll hold them down


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## peterjohnson64 (Aug 4, 2006)

[email protected]

email this guy.


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## peterjohnson64 (Aug 4, 2006)

[email protected]

John Thwaites above is the minister for environment in Victoria. David Davis is the shadow minister.

Although it is also possible that a person who operates on animals needs to be a registered vet. HOWEVER I do not know the regulations for such. Maybe you only need to be a registered vet in order to charge other people to work on their animals. I know that is the case for most other things. For example, you can write yoru own will but you can't charge other people unless you are a registered solicitor under the legal professionals acts of each state.


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## peterjohnson64 (Aug 4, 2006)

> I am writing to point you towards a petition about the practices of a person in your state. The animal keeping community are up in arms as to how this man is treating his venomous snakes by operating on them to remove their venom glands. Please have a look.
> 
> http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/
> 
> If you can be of assistance here I would love to repay your generosity by way of a flying squad to work on election day at a key seat in Victoria.



extract from email sent to vic shadow minister for environment. Please note I said "animal" keeping, not just "reptile" keeping. Dont take offence to this guys but we don't carry much political weight.

And if this works we will need some volunteers come next vic state election day.


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## soulweaver (Aug 4, 2006)

maybe some others should email him as well, let him know ther is a few concerned??


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## Gregory (Aug 4, 2006)

See how many of ya's can wade through the latest press release from old mate Ray.:shock: 




Hoser snakebusters trademarks retained, venomoid operations by Raymond
Hoser, false and misleading statements by dishonest people, a real
threat to private keeping of reptiles in Australia and other relevant
information.
Release dated 4 August 2006

Dear all, there has been substantial misinformation being posted on the
internet and elsewhere by dishonest people with agendas and axes to
grind against Raymond Hoser.
This includes people who are opposed to herpetology and wildlife
conservation..
There has been a grouping of people with vested interests against
Raymond Hoser making these false claims and also "widening their front"
by posting under false and assumed names to make out they represent a
wider group than
actually exists.
These people also control some internet forums and delete out posts
favourable to Hoser to maintain a façade of general dislike for Hoser
which is not only far from the truth, but a reversal of the reality.
In the real world, Raymond Hoser is regarded as a conservation Icon,
having authored several conservation books before conservation became
trendy. Hoser is also regarded as the father of private reptile keeping
in Australia, without whose efforts, private reptile keeping would still
be banned in most parts of Australia.

The false claims on the internet by these enemies of conservation are
further being cross-referenced to enhance the credibility of the lies
being peddled.
These people against Raymond Hoser include:
1 - David Williams, associate Wolfgang Wuster and others who between
them have a history of being proven liars and numerous criminal acts
including wildlife smuggling. They have been adversely named in the
corruption best sellers Smuggled (1993) and Smuggled-2 (1996) And seem
unable to get over these facts.
Williams was also raided in 1996 for allegedly illegally held reptiles
(or similar) and news media reports stated he had been found guilty of
cruelty to the reptiles. This was confirmed independently.
2 - Ed Punchard and others associated with a film company, Prospero, who
unsuccessfully sued Hoser in 2003/4 for his trademarks, snakebuster and
snakebusters, lost proceedings and then proceeded to misuse and
misrepresent the trademarks. They paid Hoser damages at end 2005 as a
result of proceedings in the Federal Court. The amount is
confidential. This confidentiality was insisted upon by Prospero's
side, not Hoser's.
3 - Some novice snake handlers in Melbourne, recently licenced to do
snake shows in Melbourne who covet the various events that Hoser and his
company do reptile shows at.
Hoser/Snakebusters are known as by far the best reptile shows in
Australia, the result being we are also the most heavily booked.
The false and vexatious complaints against Hoser are numerous and as a
rule all bad, but the three main ones are as follows:

1 - Hoser does not own the trademark snake busters or snake buster. 
These statements are a blatant lie. Hoser owns both trademarks and has
won all relevant proceedings. This is independently verifiable from the
Federal Government's own database.
A recent claim by Williams is that Hoser actually bootlegged the marks
from Prospero. This is patently ridiculous and something even Prospero
didn't allege. There is no evidence to support the claim by Williams.

2 - Hoser's ground-breaking procedures to render deadly snakes
non-venomous is somehow cruel. This is another lie. The reverse is
actually true. Hook and stick handling of venomous snakes is
demonstrably cruel to the snake as evidenced by their burning desire to
bite the handler and a non-venomous snake is relieved of this ongoing
handling cruelty. Adverse claims against the Hoser surgery are
invariably false and should be seen in the context of the following. 
Two unsuccessful operations to render snakes non-venomous by another
herpetologist (David Millar) were failures. He received no criticism
from David Williams and others. Williams himself has admitted to
attempting a botched operation on a snake!
The Hoser operations were universally successful and have been generally
acclaimed, including by numerous medical and veterinary people. There
has never been cruelty inflicted on any Hoser reptiles and independent
inquiries have established this after the first vexatious complaints
were made by Williams and others on his behalf.
A recent petition has been circulated by Shane Hunter and others,
calling fore the immediate destruction of Raymond Hoser and all things
associated with the name and businesses, with numerous signatories
including some that are clearly bogus. Other names on the petition
signatory list, if genuine are curious. Many names include people who
approached Hoser to surgically venomoid snakes for them and their
requests were declined. Evidently this has caused offence.
One of these persons Chris Hay of Victoria, has even posted on forums
more than once that he has handled deadly snakes for years and without
problem. (see for example post at: 
http://www.aussiepythons.com/index....t=45&amp;sid=a5da27eb29c59395d20f088f06c8a1f7)
The statement by Chris Hay (Posted under the name "acanthophis") is a
lie and he knows this. Chris Hay has been hospitalized twice for
serious snakebites as a result of his mishandling them, including a
Female Floodplain Death Adder (Acanthophis cummingi), which resulted in
him having several vials of anti-venom. Similar occurred from the bite
of a King Brown Snake (Cannia australis). 
As a result of these bites and associated adverse publicity, there were
calls for the banning of private people being allowed to keep snakes in
Victoria and elsewhere. It was only as a result of lobbying by Hoser
and others that led to the authorities allowing private keeping of
reptiles to continue.
Similar calls to ban private keeping of reptiles were made after a
series of TV shows in which Bruce George of WA, was shown to be
repeatedly bitten by venomous snakes (various episodes) and
hospitalized, all bites resulting from his cruel and inhumane handling
methods.
Shane Hunter, has a history of editing out posts from his web forum that
go against his take on things, including all "pro-Hoser" posts. He goes
further and accuses pro-Hoser posters of being Hoser pseudonyms, which
they are not. One such person, Barry Goldsmith of Melbourne and others
were falsely accused of being Hoser and booted off the forum run by
Shane Hunter (Aussiereptilekeeper).
Hunter also admits to lying on his own forums claiming this to be a sign
of his intelligence!
Shane Hunter even ran a thread on his forum dedicated to the burning and
destruction of books published by Raymond Hoser, which says something
about the degree of the witch-hunt against Hoser.
Other (alleged) signatories of the Hunter managed petition have similar
form in terms of their histories and making false statements on the
internet.

3 - Hoser has "stolen" naming rights for reptile species from people. 
This is a sour-grapes argument without merit from David Williams and
others, who are irked by the fact that species named by Raymond Hoser
must carry the "Hoser names" in perpetuity, thereby giving their enemy
credibility. The fact is that all research results published by Hoser
have been original and Hoser has never had access to file material from
Williams or others to enable him the ability to "steal" naming rights
for any reptiles.
The stealing naming rights by claims by Williams have about as much
merit as the claim that Hoser comes from Jupiter!

Please note any material on the internet or elsewhere adverse of Raymond
Hoser will invariably be false or a deliberate misrepresentation of the
truth so as to be false.
While it is easy to say that anything bearing the names "David
Williams", "Wolfgang Wuster", "Watcher" or other related aliases will be
of little if any merit in terms of comments relating to Hoser, it gets
difficult to identify these people due to the frequency and ease with
which they can post under different names or have others post on their
behalf. This gets even messier when they refer to ostensibly third
party (Independent") sources, which in fact derive from themselves
having been posted under other names.
We (Hoser and companies) cannot sue Williams for defamation due to his
existing bad debts and the fact that any judgement against him would not
be recoverable (as he has no assets of note). David Williams knows
this and uses this to his advantage.
In two previous matters in which Raymond Hoser got judgement against
others, he was unable to recover damages due to the defeated (defaming)
side then pleading effective bankruptcy. The legal bills outstanding on
both sides were huge and Hoser ended up having to foot his own, even
though he won the cases.
David Williams and others do "google" searches for the name Hoser on the
internet and then post on as many of these sites as possible adverse
comments against Hoser, usually referencing back to websites they
control as "Moderators" or their own websites (as in Wuster's and the
like).

The true situation is therefore as follows:

1 - Raymond Hoser is the snakebuster and only himself and people
authorized by him can call themselves snakebuster/s in terms of
reptiles, films and the like.
Two of the three trademarks were opposed through legal action by
Prospero Films and associates, the basis of their defence being a claim
the term as "generic" and in common useage. They agreed with Hoser's
first use of the terms in the 1980's. All actions against the
trademarks failed. The "common usage" test failed at all hearings.
Prospero also produced evidence of casual usage of the word snakebuster
in the USA and south Africa and South Australia (all without Hoser's
knowledge), but none of this had any bearing on the case. However in at
least the South Australian and West Australian cases, it was established
that the term had been bottlegged from Hoser. This was admitted by the
parties.

2 - Venomoid snakes are eminently sensible for frequently handled
snakes. Failure to venomoid a snake, (using a procedure now known to be
safe and effectively painless for a snake) that is handled often and
then using hooks, stick, tailing and the like to move it, is extremely
cruel to the snake and should be outlawed. Far from being censured for
cruelty, Hoser has been commended for reducing it! Numerous vets and
medical personel have put their stamp of approval on the Hoser venomoid
snakes. The offspring of those venomoid snakes are now in collections
in at least three Australian states!
Hoser has no plans to venomoid more snakes at this stage. No venomoid
operations have been done for some time as it was quite some time ago
that Hoser literally ran out of snakes to venomoid (all that could be
done - were!).
As those voided snakes are all alive, well and breeding, there is no
need to replace them.
Hence a petition to ban Hoser voiding snakes is redundant as there are
no more operations planned at this stage.
Thus, if a genuine petition were to be organized against venomoiding
snakes, it should be generic and targeted at any person who may be
planning such an operation.
Based on the over 1000 approaches receieved by Hoser to do operations
(all declined) a petition against others doing venomoid operations may
have some sound basis, even if the arguments against venomoiding don't.
Several licenced reptile demonstrators in several Australian states have
approached Hoser to venomoid snakes and some have complained of an
"unfair commercial advantage" enjoyed by Hoser with the venomoid
snakes. A petition (if genuinely against venomoiding snakes), should be
directed towards this likely source of future operations.
A warning is that if venomoiding snakes is banned by law, this will not
stop persons doing the operation illegally and short of re-doing
surgery, it is effectively impossible to tell a fixed snakes from one
that isn't.
We have all seen the adverse effects of banning reptile keeping in
Australia (the trade went underground) and this should be remembered by
those pushing to ban voiding, captive snakes or anything else similar.

3 - Raymond Hoser's ground-breaking research has been recognized by
peers with credibility and he remains one of the most often cited and
cross-referenced herpetologists in Australia. Recent reptile books
(e.g. Barker's, Mense's or Aplin's), cite more Hoser original research
papers
than for any other Australian herpetologist. Hoser's naming of new
species has always been original research and has been accepted by a
majority of herpetologists, not that the latter is even important. It
often takes many years for a new or controversial position to be
generally accepted and due to Raymond Hoser often being at the leading
edge of research, it would be expected that there would be some dissent
from his findings or views.

Threat to private keeping of reptiles in Australia - including false
claims against Hoser

4 - False claims have been made against Raymond Hoser to various
authorities, the results being a series of raids on Hoser, his staff and
others, including at home and workplaces. In all cases so far, Hoser
and staff have come out "clean". In one case, the reporting officer
filed a report in favour of venomoid snakes, going on to state that
non-voided deadlies shouldn't be allowed in malls due to the ever
present public safety risk. However the costs of these "raids" have
been substantial, in that several thousand dollars of taxpayers money
has been effectively wasted.
The false claims leading to the raids included the following:
1 - Hoser putting people's lives at risk with deadly snakes in shows at
shopping malls.
2 - Hoser has stolen snakes from other private keeper/s.
3 - Hoser has engaged in cruelty to reptiles and/or other illegal
activity.

Some of the people making the false claims against Hoser have also
"dobbed in" others for things they haven't done, the result being that
wildlife officers and others have had their resources unreasonably
diverted from more important matters, including tracking stolen
reptiles, stopping illegal imports (and viruses these animals may
carry), etc.

Higher up the tree, ministers and others have complained of these costs
and are now considering the banning of private keeping of reptiles as a
cheaper and more effective alternative. The most likely trigger for
this "ban on keeping" according to the head of DSE Law enforcement will
be an adverse bite from a venomous snakes, which is something Hoser and
snakebusters have been mindful of and hence our routine use of
venomoids.

Hence the alarm expressed Australia-wide when a novice by the name of
Bruce George appeared on TV mishandling snakes and getting bitten, which
if emulated by viewers could have disastrous consequences for keepers
everywhere.

There is also a strong lobby of people opposed to allegedly "wild
snakes" or "non-domesticable reptiles" being kept in click clacks, wood
or plastic tubs, small cages and the like on the basis it is not
natural. The frequently obtained photos of mite infested snakes in poor
health at collections, shops and the like (not all of course) gives
these people ammunition and is the Achilles heel of private
herpetology. 

People with a genuine concern for the future of herpetology in Australia
should stop those making false complaints against leading herpetologists
and direct their attention to cleaning up the cruel and inhumane keeping
conditions commonly seen in a percentage of private collections across
the country.

End Notes:

>From Smuggled-2
"In July 1996, Williams who was then based in Cairns had his collection
of 100 odd snakes seized by D.E.H. officials. According to Adrian
Walker, this had resulted from a falling out between Williams and
certain D.E.H. officials. D.E.H. officials had claimed that the snakes
were emaciated and diseased, as well as carrying parasitic snake mites. 
Although these claims were rebutted by Williams, several reliable
independent sources were able to confirm that many of the reptiles
seized from Williams had been in severely sub-standard health."

Government Trademark database on this date:
http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/atmoss/Falcon_Users_Cookies.Run_Create
912066 Snakebusters 44 Registered
Registered/Protected
Trade Mark : 912066
Word: Snakebusters 
Image: 
Lodgement Date: 07-MAY-2002
Registered From: 07-MAY-2002
Acceptance Advertised: 12-SEP-2002
Registration Advertised: 24-JUL-2003
Sealing Date: 08-JUL-2003
Renewal Due: 07-MAY-2012
Class/es: 44
Status: Registered/Protected
Kind: n/a
Type of Mark: Word

Owner/s: Raymond Hoser 
488 Park Road
PARK ORCHARDS,3114,VIC
AUSTRALIA


Address for Service: Raymond Hoser
488 Park Road
PARK ORCHARDS
3114,VIC
AUSTRALIA


Goods &amp; Services 

Class: 44 Removal of unwanted snakes, reptiles and other wildlife from
private premises of persons, companies and other entities in accordance
with state and federal wildlife laws, as well as provision of
information on such reptile related matters, including general
zoological and reptile-related consultancy work 

History 
Opposition 
Indexing Details - Word Constituents
SNAKEBUSTERS 

Indexing Details - Image Constituents

TM Number 912066
OPPOSITION
Acceptance Advertised: 12-SEP-2002 
Applicant: Raymond Hoser 


Address for Service: Raymond Hoser

Opponent: PROSPERO PRODUCTIONS PTY LTD 
Address for Service: FIOCCO'S LAWYERS 
Status: Finalised
Notice of Opposition Due: 12-DEC-2002
Lodged: 03-DEC-2002

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/...ail=DETAILED&amp;p_rec_no=47&amp;p_rec_all=62
Trade Mark : 963988
Word: snakebuster 
Image: 
Lodgement Date: 31-JUL-2003
Registered From: 31-JUL-2003
Acceptance Advertised: 04-DEC-2003
Registration Advertised: 25-MAY-2006
Sealing Date: 15-MAY-2006
Renewal Due: 31-JUL-2013
Class/es: 9
Status: Registered/Protected
Kind: n/a
Type of Mark: Word

Owner/s: Raymond Terrence Hoser 
488 Park Road
PARK ORCHARDS,3114,VIC
AUSTRALIA


Address for Service: R T Hoser
488 Park Road
PARK ORCHARDS
3114,VIC
AUSTRALIA


Goods &amp; Services 

Class: 9 Magnets; video game disks and cartridges; computer game
programs, computer game software; stereoscopic viewers and slide reels;
pre-recorded audio and video cassettes featuring information about
animals; pre-recorded videos, CD-ROMs and DVDs featuring information
about animals; interactive video games of virtual reality comprised of
computer hardware and software; pre-recorded digital recordings, namely,
digital audio and video tapes featuring information about animals;
pre-recorded audio tapes featuring books about animals; binoculars;
directional compasses; radios audio and video cassette players and
recorders; clock radios; calculators; video and photographic cameras and
camera cases; sunglasses; baseball batting helmets, football helmets,
hockey helmets; safety goggles; life jackets and telephones 

History 
Opposition 
Indexing Details - Word Constituents
SNAKEBUSTER 

Indexing Details - Image Constituents

TM Number 963988
OPPOSITION
Acceptance Advertised: 04-DEC-2003 
Applicant: Raymond Terrence Hoser 


Address for Service: R T Hoser

Opponent: PROSPERO PRODUCTIONS PTY LTD 
Address for Service: FIOCCO'S LAWYERS 
Status: Finalised
Notice of Opposition Due: 04-MAR-2004
Lodged: 23-FEB-2004
Evidence in Reply Due: 11-JAN-2005
Lodged: 24-DEC-2004

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/...ail=DETAILED&amp;p_rec_no=48&amp;p_rec_all=62
Trade Mark : 964068
Word: snakebuster 
Image: 
Lodgement Date: 31-JUL-2003
Registered From: 31-JUL-2003
Acceptance Advertised: 04-DEC-2003
Registration Advertised: 01-APR-2004
Sealing Date: 16-MAR-2004
Renewal Due: 31-JUL-2013
Class/es: 41
Status: Registered/Protected
Kind: n/a
Type of Mark: Word

Owner/s: Raymond Terrence Hoser 
488 Park Road
PARK ORCHARDS,3114,VIC
AUSTRALIA


Address for Service: R T Hoser
488 Park Road
PARK ORCHARDS
3114,VIC
AUSTRALIA


Goods &amp; Services 

Class: 41 Television programs, videos, DVD's, Internet sites, books and
other media and entertainment relating to snakes, snake catching, snake
removals from people's houses as well as similar programs, information
and documentaries relating to other reptiles, frogs and wild (generally
non-domesticated kinds) animals in general 

History 
Opposition 
Indexing Details - Word Constituents
SNAKEBUSTER 

Indexing Details - Image Constituents


TM Number 964068 has no Oppositions

Voiding:

Original snakes venomoided some years back have bred. Their offspring
are now in several collections.
The said snakes remain alive and well and do shows on a daily basis
without being cruelly pinned by snake sticks or "tailed" by the genital
region.

There is no pain in operating on a sedated snake. Immediate post
operative discomfort is minimal and in terms of a venomoid operation,
less than experienced by a snake with a minor mite infestation. This
has been measured and cannot be disputed.
Any post operative discomfort is rapidly outweighed by the removal of
the need to inflict ongoing and daily cruelty to the snake through
pinning, necking, hooking, tailing and the like, which are generally
known to be traumatic for snakes and is the basis as to why non-venomous
snakes (e.g. Pythons) are not generally handled in this way.

See:
http://www.smuggled.com/VenSur6.htm
for more details


----------



## NoOne (Aug 4, 2006)

LMAO ground breaking procedures :lol: 

Thats just one big pile of rubbish, funny thing that he doesn't realise is that everything on the petition has come straight from him, so he should ad in a part that he is slandering himself lol.


----------



## tyrone (Aug 4, 2006)

Bloody long article.....read parts of it and what i read sounded like crap...... 

And to correct it Barry was let back onto ARK after some ppl told shane he wasnt Hoser......


----------



## Retic (Aug 4, 2006)

Wow, I didn't know that :shock: :lol: I'm going to check out the real world one day but I don't think I'll like it, sounds like a scary place to me. 

'In the real world, Raymond Hoser is regarded as a conservation Icon, 
having authored several conservation books before conservation became 
trendy. Hoser is also regarded as the father of private reptile keeping 
in Australia, without whose efforts, private reptile keeping would still 
be banned in most parts of Australia.'


----------



## NoOne (Aug 4, 2006)

lol i didn't see that bit.

Regarded as the father of reptile keeping? Regarded by who? Himself? His dog?
If nothing else comes of it, it's a damn good laugh reading some of his garbage :lol:


----------



## cris (Aug 4, 2006)

> LMAO ground breaking procedures


So he wasnt the first person to void snakes by operating inside the mouth?

Im still waiting to see proof that snakes have full feeling of pain when torpid/refrigerated and that fish cant feel pain...
Thinking about it i havnt seen anything to make me doubt what Ray claims in his papers Re: voiding(i dont know about or care about his copyright legal crap).
Apart from some exotic species not digesting food as well without venom(not relevant to us anyway) everthing in his paper seems true to me. 
Does anyone have anything to disprove this?
I asked this question on another site and noone came back with a better response than "i dont like voids" or "i dont like Ray" or more commonly both. Except for Shane who has now booted me twice because he doesnt share my opinion :lol:


----------



## SLACkra (Aug 4, 2006)

this is one seriously complicated thing and its hard to know whos got the right facts and whose just spewing bs. however that article brings one question to my mind, if the venomoid procedure is done humanely by a vet is that less cruel than tailing the animal during presentations? considering the operation is a one off thing and the snake if used in shows would be tailed ect on a regular basis.

andrew

ps i am also glad that this discusion has gone on so long, hopefully it can stay a civil discussion.


----------



## Retic (Aug 4, 2006)

It has been done for many years now, when did Ray first do it. ?



cris said:


> > LMAO ground breaking procedures
> 
> 
> So he wasnt the first person to void snakes by operating inside the mouth?


----------



## TrueBlue (Aug 4, 2006)

:shock: what a load of rubbish,- using a simple hook to handle a snake is extremely cruel????.
Gee they must be very incompetent handlers or what??. (sounds to me that they are the novices).
as ive said before, IMO anyone that has to remove the venom glads from a snake for safe handling should NOT be keeping them in the first place, a sign off total incompetence.


----------



## Retic (Aug 4, 2006)

The procedure seems to be done quite routinely in other parts of the world BUT it seems as though the snakes are usually completely anaesthetised and not just put in the fridge for awhile.
I am most certainly against Rays method and also against the fact that he is in no way trained to carry out any sort of surgical procedure.



SLACkra said:


> this is one seriously complicated thing and its hard to know whos got the right facts and whose just spewing bs. however that article brings one question to my mind, if the venomoid procedure is done humanely by a vet is that less cruel than tailing the animal during presentations? considering the operation is a one off thing and the snake if used in shows would be tailed ect on a regular basis.
> 
> andrew
> 
> ps i am also glad that this discusion has gone on so long, hopefully it can stay a civil discussion.


----------



## Ramsayi (Aug 4, 2006)

boa said:


> I am most certainly against Rays method and also against the fact that he is in no way trained to carry out any sort of surgical procedure.



That is exactly what the petition is about.Its not about venomoids at all.All the info on the petition site regarding the snakes came from Ray himself.


----------



## SLACkra (Aug 4, 2006)

ya i completely do not condone that sortof procedure. i assume it would be like being paralyzed and getting your wisdom teeth removed with no anethsetic. fully anethetised however its well up in the air for me. i don't have enough info ect to make a informed opinion. 

andrew


----------



## Kersten (Aug 4, 2006)

Well Gregory I tried to read it but alas my poor average brain can't stay interested in it long enough to reach the conclusion (did the butler do it?). All I can say is apparently he heard the old saying...."If you can't dazzle them with facts, baffle them with bullpoo" (or something like that :lol: )


----------



## Ramsayi (Aug 4, 2006)

What more info do you need?
Its not enough that snakes were placed in a fridge to make them managable(saved on anethsetic I guess)?Its not enough that he is not or ever was trained as a veterinary surgeon?


----------



## SLACkra (Aug 4, 2006)

i ment i don't have enough facts to form an informed opinion on venemoiding snakes, i have on the other hand an opinion on doing shifty sergureys when you are not trained to do so using no anethsetic, that is it shouldn't happen if if it dose that person should be allowed to own reptiles and be charged with animal cruelty offenses.

andrew


----------



## Retic (Aug 4, 2006)

Exactly right, that is why I signed with no hesitation.



Ramsayi said:


> boa said:
> 
> 
> > I am most certainly against Rays method and also against the fact that he is in no way trained to carry out any sort of surgical procedure.
> ...


----------



## SLACkra (Aug 4, 2006)

> Exactly right, that is why I signed with no hesitation.


----------



## imported_Acanthophis (Aug 4, 2006)

Hey all,
Re:Response from (meant "provided by" apologies! Sydney Reptile Supplies. Well I have to say I expected the barrage to come. How dare someone dispute anything Ray says, are we no longer entitled to our opinions :shock: . I cant comment on other issues in the response however I would like to clarify the points made about me and although the text relating to myself is true in part, there is also mistruths embedded within.
1. I have never approached/contacted Raymond Hoser or anyone else to have any of my snakes exposed to any sort of surgery :? . I ask Ray or his staff to post exactly when this apparently took place. *THIS* is a blatant lie. In case you didn't notice, I dont agree with venomoids. Infact, I have not had any contact with Ray many years.
2. It is true I have twice been hospitalised from venomous bites (Death Adder and Mulga Snake), however the bad press relating to the Death Adder bite was a result of 1996 being a particularly bad year for snake-bites on private keepers with several bites being sustained in that year on a number of younger keepers.
The media never reported on the Mulga Snake bite and due to the fact this bite occurred in another state, I dont see any relevance to the keeping of venomous snakes in Victoria. Furthermore, there was no antivenom involved.
3. My comment "handling venomous snakes for years with no problem" specifically relates to the public exhibition of venomous snakes. Neither of the bites occurred during this activity.

I personally have no problem with Ray. What I do have a problem with is the de-venomising of snakes without anaesthesia.

It is ridiculous to state that tailing a snake, using a hook to support the anterior body is cruel. I have used and observed this method 1000's of times and the animals do not react by attempting to bite.

If pinning a snake by the head is cruel, how exactly does Ray restrain the animal during the procedure. It must be difficult operating on a snake with its head moving around :lol: .

As I have previously stated many times, I signed the petition because I dont agree with the practise or the manner in which it was conducted, it has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, the X-files or a witch-hunt.

All the Best,
Chris.


----------



## Gregory (Aug 4, 2006)

Acanthophis said:


> Hey all,
> Re:Response from Sydney Reptile Supplies. Well I have to say I expected the barrage to come.




Don't go shooting the messenger mate. All's I did was reproduce what Ray said on his OzHerpLaw newsgroup.

It was posted under my name. It had nothing to do with Sydney Reptile Supplies.



Greg.


----------



## tyrone (Aug 4, 2006)

peterescue said:


> tyrone said:
> 
> 
> > There r plenty of ppl perfomrning this operation on vens (based on hosers methods) r they all going to get a petition of their own too??
> ...




Never said it was a licenced vet :wink:


----------



## imported_Acanthophis (Aug 4, 2006)

Greg,
Apologies mate. I have edited the post to read "provided by". I realise that the response is not written by you.
All the Best,
Chris.


----------



## OuZo (Aug 4, 2006)

Ouzo hates it when Ouzo sees other people say things in the 3rd person, especially when Ouzo feels that those things are about Ouzo or directed towards Ouzo or perhaps Ouzo just likes to keep saying her name because Ouzo likes the sound of Ouzo.

:shock:


----------



## Australis (Aug 4, 2006)

You have to laugh when Ray Hoser whos been convicted of Perjury claims others have lied :roll: 

And anyone who reads Hosers site and actually believes the crap thats on it, really needs to remember that Hoser is a well know liar.

Matt


----------



## NoOne (Aug 4, 2006)

I reckon most of what Ray wrote was a lie, funny how he has next to no proof of the 1000 people who have asked him to void their snakes, or any of the other rubbish he came up with. Ain't half high on himself though :roll: or something else lol.


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Aug 4, 2006)

JandCReptiles said:


> Rays argument will be that they serve an educational purpose for his displays. For that reason it will not be stopped.



One thing that shocks me about this......the educational purpose can be utilised WITHOUT having to handle, kiss, hug or whatever else 'Herpetologists' do with the venomous reptiles at public displays. I've seen a lot of 'snake shows' where the vens are held in safe enclosures to LOOK at, NOT to be picked up and dangled in the face of the nearest two year old child. 

I don't believe that slinging around a venomous snake in front of children is all that necessarily 'educational'. 

Its a bit of a 'do as I say, not do as I do' type thing happening there. How many of you have stories of picking up venomous snakes whilst you were young? Why did you do it....I bet its the same reason kids get their licenses to drive- then race their mates at 200kms an hour down a highway....or do other life risking behaviours....kids think they're invincible. They have no concept of mortality- at least none that I've ever seen do. 

This is just my opinion. I don't believe that its to anyones advantage to be handling venomous snakes at displays. 

Whether its Ray Hoser doing it, or any other 'Herpetologist'- I don't care who's doing it - its unnecessary.


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Aug 4, 2006)

And something else that just occured to me...if people...meaning private keepers- have venomous snakes that they are happy to allow such a brutal and awful procedure to be perfomed on- it makes me wonder if those people should in fact be keeping snakes at all. I can't imagine owning a venomous snake, (I wouldn't own them for the fact they are venomous-not that I don't think there are some really pretty vens out there) and then deciding to have its fangs ripped out. 

Maybe they'd be better off with a harmless python.


----------



## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 4, 2006)

Just pointing out what his defense will be.

Honestly I don't care 1 way or another whether it is stopped or not.
What somebody else does with his animals in his home has no effect on me so I have no reason to participate in lynching them. I do not know Ray, therefore I do not hate him nor like him. I do however like a good argument hence stirring the pot in this thread. But what I don't like is reading slanderous posts continually. Every 2nd post these days are about so called dirty pet shops, dobbing in some keeper or bagging Ray Hoser &amp; Steve Irwin and I am sick of hearing about it. GET A LIFE!

The fact is the petition was started by people with personal grudges against Ray. And every person that signed also has issues with Ray aside from voids. Like I keep saying if it wasn't venomoids it would be some other matter for you all to bitch about because EVERYBODY LOVES RAY lol

What he does does not effect me in anyway. I don't lose money from it, my family don't suffer from it, I am not homeless because of it, and my animals are not un-healthy because of it. But you lot act as if what he does/says/writes is tearing your life apart haha. And I don't just mean voids.

PS:
Anyway I am obviously not participating in a petty petition that will not make any changes so there is no reason to aim attention at me anymore


----------



## NoOne (Aug 4, 2006)

I for one have no personal grudge against ray, all i have a problem with is the way he voids his snakes.

You know so much J and C please can you teach me to 'get a life'? i want to be just like you :roll:


----------



## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 4, 2006)

Well it is easy to be like me you just need to know how to mind your own business.

So &amp; so has an exotic so I reported them to NPWS.
Such &amp; such pet shop had a dirty cage so I rang the RSPCA.
Ray Hoser does surgery on his own animals so I signed a petition.


----------



## NoOne (Aug 4, 2006)

So we should never speak out against wrong things in our world? Just let people do as they please and not try and stop anything?


----------



## AntaresiaLady (Aug 4, 2006)

JandC- I just want to clarify for you- my post was NOT in any way against you- I just quoted what you wrote- which is the truth- they are using the educational excuse. 

Perhaps I should have excluded the posters name- but I didn't realise it would be taken personally- my apologies. 

And if everyone lives in their own little box, and no one does or says anything about those breaking the law, perpetrating cruelty or anything else- then the world will quickly turn into a hell hole. More so than it is. Its because no one gives a crap about anyone else that the world is full of criminals and the like. No one cares, or everyones too scared to put a stop to it. 

Let your standards lapse, and thats it...the world goes to hell in a handbasket.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 4, 2006)

Slandering a person publically is a wrong doing yeah?
Should we start a petition to stop all the Ray Hoser, Steve Irwin, Brodie Wilson bashings?

What about all the speeding drivers?
Occasional drug users?
Those that lit a fire on a public beach?
What about those that have wagged school?
Used foul language in a public place?
Urinated in any other area except a toilet?
Spat up phlegm on the side walk while sick?
Dropped litter outside of a bin?

Yep by all means these all affect your lively hood, inform on them


----------



## NoOne (Aug 4, 2006)

You seem to be forgeting the point that the petition isn't bashing anyone.


----------



## Kersten (Aug 4, 2006)

It's not slander to publish something which the "victim" has said themselves.....should he have himself charged with slander? Given the constant referrals to himself in the third person, I wouldn't put it past him to try it....


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 4, 2006)

lol I have everybodies attention 

Kersten,
Ray never calls himself some of the names the members here do. I can't recall any site where he describes himself as an idiot, loser, mongrel etc.

AntaresiaLady,
I never took it seriously. I am having fun and still smiling 

Duga,
The petition may not be a bashing, but every other post regarding him is.

Anyway no need to direct any further posts to myself.
You guys think it is justice to inform on somebody, I think it is a dog act. You go about your petition &amp; I will remain an un-signer


----------



## Retic (Aug 4, 2006)

I must admit I was thinking that myself, we see an animal being mistreated so we should just walk away and let someone else do something about it ? I for one consider it the right thing is to do what is best for the animal.
I do agree about reporting people for having exotics though, if the animal isn't mistreated then leave well alone.


----------



## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 4, 2006)

Is it any different to sticking a hook through a fish's spine to be used for live bait? Isn't that legal?

Do we know for sure that these snakes or fish feel pain?
And do we expect that those government bodies who are un-educated about creepy critters will show some sort of sympathy towards them?

Good luck with it anyway guys. I doubt anything will change.

PS:
You know who really stands to win here is Ray.
If it is ruled in court that venomoids should be under anethesia he remains doing the surgery (or having some1 do it for him) either way he continues working with them and you lot will remain against venomoids in general regardless of proceedure.

But if it is over ruled you have just allowed 1 lone guy who you all think is a loser, a retard, a nobody, and a ego maniac to beat you all and your best attempts at stoppign him in a court of law hahaha


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## AntaresiaLady (Aug 4, 2006)

I've never slandered Ray, or Steve (I loovvee Steve!!) or any of them.

It is the practice of tearing out an animals fangs for no good reason I have a problem with. I don't give a toss who's doing it. 

A social comment:


> What about all the speeding drivers?
> Occasional drug users?
> Those that lit a fire on a public beach?
> What about those that have wagged school?
> ...



Lemme start with speeding drivers. Do I think they should be punished? HELL YES. Why? Because I have seen the innocent drivers slaughtered by morons doing more than the certifiied speed limits. If I could find them, I'd post you the pictures I was given of a friends child that was murdered by a speeding driver. Drunk drivers should cop the same.
Occasional Drug users- no problem with them- as long as they don't endanger anyone else while they're occassionally using. I do however have a problem with those who take drugs KNOWING they will end up addicted, and then end up in the system because they're hooked and have become slaves to the drugs. 
Fires on public beaches...no problem with that either, as long as they clean up after themselves to allow people to use the beach safely. 
School Truants should be punished. Maybe it would help with kids coming out of school unable to read and write, and then bludging off the government (read the tax paying public) when they can't get a job because they're illiterate.
Foul language should not necessarily be punished- but children especially should be taught respect for their elders, and if they did so, they'd probably cut down on the foul language out in public. Same with spitting- how hard is it to find a rubbish bin, or use a tissue? Not really hard- but spitting is certainly not high on the list of hangable offences. Neither are the other two. 

Call me old fashioned, call me stuck up, call me whatever you will, but I believe if you sit by and watch crime be committed, you are no better than the criminal. We have laws to be respected. And my religious beliefs are those in which I am asked to abide by God's laws, but also by the laws of the land in which I live. if that means I have to be a 'dog' in order to help maintain some sort of order, and to protect my family and those I love, then I'll get on my hands and knees and bark. 

There was a saying that said something like 'they came for the jews, I was not jewish, so I did not stand up'....and it continues until it says 'and then they came for me, and there was no one left to stand up for me'. 
So true. 

So JandC, you and I differ on our opinions of the law, and our responsibilities as citizens, but we're allowed to- because if we were all the same the world would be sure boring!


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## Kersten (Aug 4, 2006)

The petition is only about the procedure and the lack of anasthetic....so if the petition stops him performing the procedure as is then it will have done exactly what it was designed to do. So why make it sound as if that's not what is desired here? I don't know about the other people who signed it but I did so to stop the inhumane procedure as it's performed now, not to stop elapids being voided. The fact that I don't like voids as a rule doesn't mean that I think this petition will change their existence.

Marie honey, he doesn't take their fangs out. He removes their venom glands.


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## AntaresiaLady (Aug 4, 2006)

My apologies...I was shown a video of someone doing the procedure and thought it was the same one Ray is apparently doing. 

Its still a cruel operation, and should not be done. There is no justification for it. 
(Thanks Kersten for the heads up- I at least I know the difference now)


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## Kersten (Aug 4, 2006)

No probs :wink: Figured I'd better say something before the pedantic police hopped on your case and made a big deal of it  You're absolutely right though, it's still horrible and cruel.


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## AntaresiaLady (Aug 4, 2006)

LOL Kersten 

Yeah I'm glad too!


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## indicus (Aug 4, 2006)

To true TB....
It's not a matter of Ramond bashing etc; it's the stupid arguements that seem to support the notion that taking an elapid and turning it into a venomiod is a acceptable practice. It might very well be if you didnt appreciate the animal for what it is.....how can one who considers themselves to have a passion for reptiles honestly believe this is of any benefit to the elapid in anyway?. Just the mere concept of taking the venomous abilities away from an animal that has evolved as a specialized hunter over millions of years; is just criminal....eg: Be like taking the wings off an eagle....Arrr, it's fine, it can still eat and hunt; just hops around after it's prey; sounds stupid; because it is. How the hell does turning an elapid into a venomoid serve any benefit to the unfortunate animal in question?; or offer any benefits regarding education?. Am i to assume it's for the benefit of the demonstrators ego?; or is it simply self preservation for somebody who is obviously cannot handle an elapid as is? How does allowing the public to hang an elapid around ones neck, free handle in a casual manner or to that effect, teach one a sense of respect for that animal and it's capabilities.....i think not. I'm not arguing whether it's painfull or not, its just morally unethical and unnecessary if your a competent handler. Yes accidents can happen and do, in any field that has an element of danger associated to it.....thats life. There are those out there that have been handling elapids for a long time without resorting to this type of mutilation. Lastly to address those that believe we as a community of supposed reptile enthusiasts should keep quite and accept this type of practise; and other issues such as filthy Pet shops, dodgy keepers etc etc by not speaking out...... this would be gutless and would be an injustice to reptiles and herpetology alike. Its moral obligation which i feel we must uphold.


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## cris (Aug 4, 2006)

> The petition is only about the procedure and the lack of anasthetic


Im still wait for someone to direct me to evidence that sticking them in the fridge doesnt do this... but i guess it would be better to boot them full of stuff that will probably kill them or not work anyway, yeah that would be heaps better. can i join your Ray/void bashing club yet?

I think i should start a petition to give free elephant beer to all


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## newtosnakes (Aug 4, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> Just pointing out what his defense will be.
> 
> Honestly I don't care 1 way or another whether it is stopped or not.
> What somebody else does with his animals in his home has no effect on me so I have no reason to participate in lynching them. I do not know Ray, therefore I do not hate him nor like him. I do however like a good argument hence stirring the pot in this thread. But what I don't like is reading slanderous posts continually. Every 2nd post these days are about so called dirty pet shops, dobbing in some keeper or bagging Ray Hoser &amp; Steve Irwin and I am sick of hearing about it. GET A LIFE!
> ...





I signed this petition and have no personal issue or grudge against the man. I would find it hard to have one as I have never met the man nor had any dealings with him. I find this generalisation a bit ridiculous....


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## pixie (Aug 4, 2006)

> I signed this petition and have no personal issue or grudge against the man. I would find it hard to have one as I have never met the man nor had any dealings with him. I find this generalisation a bit ridiculous....


same for me


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## koubee (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm not signing this petition, i've seen his show and he dosen't wave the venomoid snakes around in front of young kids, in fact, the kids don't even get to touch them.
Yes, children (5 &amp; up) understand, when explained to them, the difference between a venomous and a python. Education is the ONLY way kids will learn.
I'm not a person who is all for animal crulety, but i really don't think this will stop elapids becoming venomiods.

Just my 2 cents, don't mean to upset anyone.


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## cris (Aug 4, 2006)

> Just my 2 cents, don't mean to upset anyone


 :lol: lucky this isnt ark or you would be booted :lol: 
I personally think his style of show is a great step foward in teaching the general public that snakes are not evil things trying to kill them(going on what ive read) all snakes shows i have seen involve someone swinging a agro elapid around grabbing its tail and holding it away with a hook. That just makes ppl think wow that thing is crazy and if i see one ill sort it out  

but im getting off the topic where is the proof that putting the snakes in the fridge doesnt work?



> I signed this petition and have no personal issue or grudge against the man. I would find it hard to have one as I have never met the man nor had any dealings with him. I find this generalisation a bit ridiculous....


generalisations are only for a mob individuals dont have to worry about generalisations(well thats my theory anyway)


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## newtosnakes (Aug 4, 2006)

cris, i do worry about generalisations when the following occurs:

statement - everyone who signed this petition has other grudges against ray 
fact - i signed the statement
assumption - i therefore hold an ulterior grudge against ray
fact - as said i have no such grudge as I have never met the man nor had dealings with him so have nothing to base a grudge on. Therefore putting me in the category is a generalisation.


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## Australis (Aug 4, 2006)

cris said:


> but im getting off the topic where is the proof that putting the snakes in the fridge doesnt work?




Where is the "proof" it _does_ work??????



Matt


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## cris (Aug 4, 2006)

> Where is the "proof" it does work


sounds like you dont know much about the subject, im waiting for someone who does know to answer...
well if you stick your own hand in a bucket of icy water and cut it with a scaple i dont think you will feel much, obviously this isnt the same, but i havnt seen anything to make me think Rays method isnt better than alternative anethesia methods.


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## newtosnakes (Aug 4, 2006)

cris, when you cut yourself with a scaple i suggest hooking yourself up to a heartrate and blood pressure monitor and tell me what happens when you cut yourself, you may not feel it but your body will sure as heck register the pain.... 

pz. pics or it didn't happen.


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## newtosnakes (Aug 4, 2006)

maybe ps even....


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## cris (Aug 4, 2006)

> cris, when you cut yourself with a scaple i suggest hooking yourself up to a heartrate and blood pressure monitor and tell me what happens when you cut yourself, you may not feel it but your body will sure as heck register the pain....
> 
> pz. pics or it didn't happen.


Never tried myself but cold temps do induce a numbness(spelling?) in humans, i dont cut myself or anything but i do know this to be true. If you dont feel the pain its impossible for your body to know, well unless you are looking and then its only up to if your brain is squimish(spelling?)



> but im getting off the topic where is the proof that putting the snakes in the fridge doesnt work?


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## AntaresiaLady (Aug 4, 2006)

I've had bodyparts be numbed by ice, but I was still able to feel it, it just wasn't as intense as it could have been. Don't know if it works the same in snakes. We could always try the old 'shot 'o' whiskey' method. Maybe that would work :shock:

Don't ask how this happened...! :shock:


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## Australis (Aug 5, 2006)

cris said:


> If you dont feel the pain its impossible for your body to know, well unless you are looking and then its only up to if your brain is squimish



Dont think its impossible for your body to know, even if it doesnt register the pain, there are cases of people with conditions such as congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis(CIPA), who dont feel pain, but there body can still react to it.


The owness of proof is on Hoser to prove that the snakes he operates on dont feel pain! 

I guess its you who doesnt know much on the subject, other than reading Rays pseudoscience papers :roll: 


Matt


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## cris (Aug 5, 2006)

> Where can I buy one of these venomoiid thingies, they sound cool? ":


 :lol: 


> I guess its you who doesnt know much on the subject, other than reading Rays pseudoscience papers


I never said i know thats why i was asking.


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## imported_Acanthophis (Aug 5, 2006)

Hey Cris,
I have found a reference regarding the use of hypothermia to induce anaesthesia suggesting it is not viable.
"Surgical Removal of Venom Glands in Australian Elapid Snakes-Reply" by Dr Franciscus Scheelings BVSc, in "The Crocodilian" Journal of the Victoria Association of Amateur Herpetologists. Volume 6 Issue 1, May 2006.

All the Best,
Chris.


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## Bob2 (Aug 5, 2006)

I have to say I'm with Cris on this one. If, as Hoser claims, they are taking feeds soon after the operation, I find it hard to believe that the snakes find it as horrific as we might like to think.
[putting on my thick skin suit]


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## cris (Aug 5, 2006)

> Hey Cris,
> I have found a reference regarding the use of hypothermia to induce anaesthesia suggesting it is not viable.
> "Surgical Removal of Venom Glands in Australian Elapid Snakes-Reply" by Dr Franciscus Scheelings BVSc, in "The Crocodilian" Journal of the Victoria Association of Amateur Herpetologists. Volume 6 Issue 1, May 2006.
> 
> ...


dude im not going to buy something to read an alternative view that is "suggesting" that its not viable, im interested in some evidence or logical theory that says that its not better than practical alternative methods of anaesthesia.


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## Australis (Aug 5, 2006)

*Cris,*


"When reptiles are subjected to freezing temperatures, extracellular fluids begin to form ice crystals long before the reptile loses consciousness and pain perception. This extracellular freezing creates an osmotic imbalance, drawing water out of cells. The circulation is then impeded which inhibits prevents gas exchange, nutrient uptake, etc. Ice crystals begin to create small punctures in cell walls. For more information on euthanasia, see Stephen L. Barten DVM's article"

Above from below link:
http://www.anapsid.org/iguana/hypothermia.html


You might find the information provided in the below linkshelpful in regards to the use of "hypothermia for anesthesia"

http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/37_4/37_4Evaluation.shtml

When you think how little is know about treating reptiles its amazing Hoser has become such a expert :roll: 
And also a expert on what people get up to i taxis   

Matt


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## imported_Acanthophis (Aug 5, 2006)

Cris,
Sorry mate, I shouldn't have used the term "suggesting" This is an article written by a qualified vet with experience in reptiles. He provides evidence and further references on the topic. The evidence is exactly the same as provided by MattQld83.
All the Best,
Chris.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

newtosnakes said:


> JandC_Reptiles said:
> 
> 
> > Just pointing out what his defense will be.
> ...



So if anethesia is deemed necessary during surgery &amp; Ray uses this method you will no longer have any problems with Ray or venomoids? I am sure every1 will be happy if Ray uses the right methods to butcher a snake. Or maybe they will start to whinge that it is no longer inhumane but morally wrong &amp; un-ethical  in which case the petition hasn't done squat and we will still be reading several hundred slanderous posts about Ray in the future (STANDARD) There is already several long winded posts in this thread regarding the issue with venomoids in general (not just the proceedure endured by the snake) that goes to show the issue is NOT the lack of anethesia but the fact it is done at all.

See the petition is NOT to stop his inhumane treatment on voids but rather to try &amp; stop the practice completely, which will not happen. Therefore Ray will come out the victor in this case 

RAY HOSER FOR PM 2007!


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

I agree, this was written by a Vet with a doctorate in veterinary science, what on Earth are they going to know about it ? 7 years of training is hardly going to give them an insight into the effectiveness of an alternative form of anaesthesia. A specially developed anaesthetic or sticking them in a fridge for awhile, mmm, which is best ? It's a close call. So can anyone provide any evidence on the subject ? Maybe something from a bricklayer or stockbroker because a vet is hardly qualified to comment on such a complicated subject.



cris said:


> All the Best,
> Chris.


dude im not going to buy something to read an alternative view that is "suggesting" that its not viable, im interested in some evidence or logical theory that says that its not better than practical alternative methods of anaesthesia.[/quote]


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

Very well put Indicus, I can't see how being able to show the general public a venomous snake without venom is in any way going to increase anyone knowledge or understanding of those animals. If it is like most of these shows the majority of what is said to Joe Public goes in one ear and out of the other so all they are seeing is someone holding a big Brown Snake as if it is harmless and in the case of venomoids of course it is harmless. Back in the real world a big Brown Snake of course ISN'T harmless.
It is mutilation and in the case of the way Ray does it mutilation in the most barbaric form. 

I should also add that I signed the petition and I have no personal axe to grind with Ray, I have known him for many years from my time in Geelong and always got on well with him but that makes no difference with regard this subject. 
Yes we could just turn our backs on anyything to do with animal welfare but I for one don't want to see that happen, there will always be those of us who consider it a fight worth getting involved in.



indicus said:


> It's not a matter of Ramond bashing etc; it's the stupid arguements that seem to support the notion that taking an elapid and turning it into a venomiod is a acceptable practice. It might very well be if you didnt appreciate the animal for what it is.....how can one who considers themselves to have a passion for reptiles honestly believe this is of any benefit to the elapid in anyway?. Just the mere concept of taking the venomous abilities away from an animal that has evolved as a specialized hunter over millions of years; is just criminal....eg: Be like taking the wings off an eagle....Arrr, it's fine, it can still eat and hunt; just hops around after it's prey; sounds stupid; because it is. How the hell does turning an elapid into a venomoid serve any benefit to the unfortunate animal in question?; or offer any benefits regarding education?. Am i to assume it's for the benefit of the demonstrators ego?; or is it simply self preservation for somebody who is obviously cannot handle an elapid as is? How does allowing the public to hang an elapid around ones neck, free handle in a casual manner or to that effect, teach one a sense of respect for that animal and it's capabilities.....i think not. I'm not arguing whether it's painfull or not, its just morally unethical and unnecessary if your a competent handler. Yes accidents can happen and do, in any field that has an element of danger associated to it.....thats life. There are those out there that have been handling elapids for a long time without resorting to this type of mutilation. Lastly to address those that believe we as a community of supposed reptile enthusiasts should keep quite and accept this type of practise; and other issues such as filthy Pet shops, dodgy keepers etc etc by not speaking out...... this would be gutless and would be an injustice to reptiles and herpetology alike. Its moral obligation which i feel we must uphold.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

So your argument, Indicus's argument &amp; many others argument IS venomoids on the whole NOT just the anethesia issue? Anethesia has very little to do with it &amp; if he is granted permission to perform the act under anethesia you will remain fighting against it &amp; Ray? So the petition is a far cry from being a justice to enforce humanity in his surgery hey? More of an attempt to eliminate it completely. My point exactly. Regardless of the petty action taken here you are fighting a no win situation and at the end of the day you will still remain to have issues against Ray long after any court proceedings. 

Boa, for some1 who is all for mutations &amp; hybrids that also handicap a species in the case of coma's (carpet x woma's) or Chongles/Carpondro's you seem to have a high horse regarding others opinions on the subject of voiding Elapids. Is it not hypocritical to fight for one while fighting against another when both are in a sense morally &amp; un-ethically wrong as well as butchering &amp; handicapping an animal?

So when it goes through court &amp; quickly becomes legal to do so what will the majorities arguments be then? that he is legally breaching a moral code that some part of the community hold? hahaha. Maybe you can explain about having a bird with no wings in future court hearings when making a claim against him for legal acts of un-ethicality against some peoples beliefs. But I am sure he will use Kiwis, emu's &amp; ostriches as an example though and squash yet another case you guys have put against him


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## indicus (Aug 5, 2006)

Of course how any operation on any animal, and how the operation is performed is an issue when considering an animals welfare inregards to pain....however as i have expressed, thats something i cannot comment on, as i'm not the snake.....however as you eluded to; it's the whole venomoid issue of takeing a elapid and turning it into an it?. I find in a joke that someone who is suppose to love/enjoy reptiles take the stance that you have JandC.....to support such practices....what a bloody joke. You then offer watered down similarties between the pain a fish feels when having a hook in its mouth. This isnt about fish or any other issue other then herps and their future wellfare....maybe that arguement is better suited to a fish site....
Another thing to consider is........What happens when this venomoid is passed onto another keeper etc.
eg "mate it's cool, this ones a venomoid".....next thing we have confusion which one is what, and someone is envenomated....Now where talking a safety issue. Dont be so sure that the authorities will take this lightly.....
So i say to you step out of your fish bowl and consider other aspects other then your love for Ray &amp; friends....maybe the uniqueness of our elapids as they are would be enough.


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

:lol: (That smiley was in reference to JandC's post by the way)


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

No I said a hook in its spine used as live bait not in its mouth.
And I DO NOT support Ray or his practises I am simply going against the majority with their constant complaining on every issue I have mentioned. Like I keep saying even after all this is said &amp; done every1 will still remain against Ray and anything he does/says/writes/publishes. As I also said the continual threads about dirty pet shops (most of which have plenty of people verifying that the shop is no where near as bad as the original posters accusations) and posts about dobbing so &amp; so in for keeping an exotic is lame imo. I did not mean to conceal every crime committed, but if it not a big deal why bother turning it into 1? As some1 mentioned if the exotic is being well kept then turn a blind eye who cares. If a pet shop has 1 single dead fish in a tank inform the staff there rather than create a post to bad mouth this persons business and ruin their reputation. I said I can take it or leave it as what this person does to his own animals does not effect me in any way. 

Yes I am passionate about MY ANIMALS, I do not shed a tear when I read a post about somebody who's snake has escaped or died because it does not effect the health of my own animals or any part of my family. Why should I be passionate about the entire population? As long as my animals are well cared for that is all that matters to me.

Calling me a Ray &amp; friends lover is a bit childish isn't it?
After all shouldn't whistle blowers stick together? this would then make him your associate not mine.


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

Yep, I'm alright Jack.


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## indicus (Aug 5, 2006)

:roll: ...well is that it?....i think you have proven to me and others your stance on our herps and well being.
well done mate.....turn a blind eye; it doesnt effect ya.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

exactly 
Its just a hobby for me. Not my life.
Bit of pocket money, a few pets, the odd social function &amp; friends.

Nothing more &amp; nothing less.
Now does this make me less of a person because I don't share your passion towards the hobby? I own an automobile should I also clean my car twice weekly because other car enthusiasts do?


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## indicus (Aug 5, 2006)

Not a passion towards the hobby; but yes i am passionate when considering our unique reptiles and their well being; but thats me; if thats so wrong, so be it......


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

No it isn't wrong at all. I don't shed a tear if I hear of someones animal dying but I do feel sorry for the loss. If someone asks a question in relation to an animals wellbeing I try to answer for the sake of the animal. It is very easy just to think well it doesn't affect me or mine so who cares.


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## koubee (Aug 5, 2006)

totally agree with JandC.


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## westhamsc (Aug 5, 2006)

man what a topic it's like the days of our lives but more entertaining lol


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## cris (Aug 5, 2006)

Thanks for those links Matt i knew if i kept asking someone would post them, the first link about euthansia i read sometime back but i was recently unable to find it  

The next link was informative but not really conclusive, but it does suggest that Rays procedure may not prevent the snakes from feeling all the pain, It would atleast have some effect and would allow for a successful operation. To find the answer research would have to be done on the species Ray voided and if another method of anesthesia is as safe and practical for such an opperation.
So im back where I started just with a bit more knowledge.
It also had a really big word in it "electroencephalographic" :shock:


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## Nome (Aug 5, 2006)

I don't understand what the debate is. The facts are:

1) HE IS NOT A LICENSED VET. You are not allowed to operate on animals if you aren't licensed

2) HE DOESN'T USE ANESTHESIA. He puts the snakes in the fridge first, this is known to immobilite reptiles, make them less active. I would daresay the reason he doesn't use anesthesia is because he's not a licensed vet and probably can't get ahold of anesthesia for reptiles.

3) LICENSED VETS USE PROPER ANESTHESIA. Cris, etc, don't you think if putting reptiles in the fridge was enough to make them feel no pain, that vets would use this method over anesthesia??

4) HE HAS TO HOLD THE ANIMALS DOWN WITH RUBBER BANDS TIED TO A PLANK OF WOOD. If they were completely deadened, couldn't feel pain or move, why would he need to do this??

There would simply be no issue if Hoser was a licensed vet, did the relevant study and experience for a degree, and used the proper anesthesia to operate on the snakes. 

Have a look at his site, see the pictures, read his explanation of how he does these operations. He is not using a sterile vet surgery, he is using PLANKS OF WOOD AND RUBBER BANDS to put the snakes on and hold them down with.

J &amp; C, how could his methods ever become legal?? Why would he be allowed to operate unlicensed with no degree on animals?? Imagine the president that would set?

What he does is clearly in breach of the cruelty to animals act in the very least.


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

Absolutely agree 100%.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

*Indicus,*
I never said you were or ever implied you were wrong, it was you who bought up the issue of passion towards reptiles and you who figured I was condoning what Ray does. So in reality it was you saying I was wrong yeah? And just like opinions passion varies also.

*Nome,*
Ray may not partake in the surgery perhaps vets will in the future, who knows maybe he will be allowed to under anethesia I really don't know &amp; really dont particularly care. All I know is it will not stop them like the majority wish. And this petition is not about the lack of anethesia &amp; Ray doing the surgery as such re-read some of the posts from those that have signed, others have clearly suggested even in this thread him being an unlicenced vet &amp; the lack of anethesia is not the only issue they have, they want it stopped completely on the grounds it is un-ethical, un-necessary &amp; un-moral in their opinions (who seem to think their own opinion is valid but nobody elses holds any ground) which I will repeat will not happen, therfore this whole debate arguing slandering slagging mud tossing crap will not end with this petition. We can still expect alot more threads regarding Ray &amp; venomoids regardless of the outcome in the future. 

Get it through your thick heads I am not arguing that what he does is right or wrong, I couldn't care less. I am arguing that the morons with nothing better to do than to slag off fellow Herpers won't give it up, not now, not tomorrow, not next week &amp; not after any result of an online petition. I am also informing you that nothing you do will stop venomoids or hybrids so whats the point in arguing &amp; creating posts about them several times a week?

Anyway I am not fighting for the right for Ray to do barbaric surgery and it is not my place to decide if it is right or wrong. I have my own opinion but that is all it is I don't go around trying to persuade an entire group of followers that my opinion is correct and any1 elses is wrong. Go ahead sign some petition formed on the internet but don't sit here arguing with me because I refuse to, telling me how wrong it is etc when I have already read about the BS 10000 times in the past, recently and no doubt will in the future as well. My original comment was to yawn when conversation as usual turned to Ray Hoser. Attention was then directed at me &amp; I have replied with my opinions. I had my say, you have had yours, nothing further to debate is there?

And for the record once again for those that are slow on the uptake, I do not condone what he does &amp; have not once said he was right or should be doing surgery.

*Boa*
Why not answer my questions?
Do you not feel it is hypocritical of yourself to have an interest in hybrids like coma's (carpet x Woma) that have lost their heat sensing pits which they have evolved to use much like an Elapid has evolved to use venom, YET be against venomoids for the fact that their venom glands are removed? Am I to assume you have more passion towards a purebred species than a cross breed? and if that was the case why are you interested in cross breeds? Sounds very condensending to me, perhaps you can explain your stance?


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## OuZo (Aug 5, 2006)

Jesus JandC, the first thing I'd like to say to you is *yawn*

The other things I'd like to say to you are not G rated and therefore should probably be kept in my head. Your logic is screwed, if nothing else why bother writing all these long posts so you can argue a point that you don't actually agree with or care about? :?


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## NoOne (Aug 5, 2006)

Because J and C can't admit when he's wrong, thought everyone knew that :lol:


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

Dont let fear hold you back Ouzo just go ahead &amp; say them. I am sure if I ever feel inclined to say anything to you I will come out and do so regardless of ratings or feelings. Was I the 1 arguing? Or was I defending myself after being called wrong? What point did I argue exactly?

And how am I wrong duga? Not once had I agreed with Ray, is it because I dont follow Shane like a sheep? Because I am not a puppet a pigeon and a gopher? Just goes to show whoever does not sign the petition is labeled as a wrong doer. Well so be it, beats being an internet ranger.

The way I see it not once did I ever condone what Ray does every1 assumed I did and begun directing attention towards me. Now you say I should of ignored the posts and not replied? haha as if I lurveeeeeeee a good fight. Bring it back on


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

For someone who doesn't care you sure seem to care a lot :lol: 
If someone could breed a venomous snake that didn't have venom I would quite probably buy one. I can't recall ever showing any great interest in Comas, I think they look nice and are interesting and as most people said it is extremely doubtful they would 'miss' their heat pits anyway as they never had them to begin with, the venomoid on the other hand was born with it's venom glands and then had them ripped out when an adult. Hardly the same really when you think about it. 
No I have no more passion for pure, crossbred or hybrid snakes, my love of snakes is pretty broad. I'm not quite sure why should assume I have more passion for pure snakes ?
To be honest I have no desire or need to explain my stance to anyone to be honest with you. 



JandC_Reptiles said:


> [
> *Boa*
> Why not answer my questions?
> Do you not feel it is hypocritical of yourself to have an interest in hybrids like coma's (carpet x Woma) that have lost their heat sensing pits which they have evolved to use much like an Elapid has evolved to use venom, YET be against venomoids for the fact that their venom glands are removed? Am I to assume you have more passion towards a purebred species than a cross breed? and if that was the case why are you interested in cross breeds? Sounds very condensending to me, perhaps you can explain your stance?


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## NoOne (Aug 5, 2006)

I ca go back through your posts and find alot of things which are wrong, one that comes to mind is " everyone who signs it has an axe to grind with Ray" is that wrong? Yep sure is. If you want me to i'll go back over your posts and get more?

You tell eveyone to get things through their thick heads, you need to do the same and actually understand that we aren't having a go at Ray just the way he does things.
If you truely don't care why don't you go do something else, but as Boa said you do seem to care alot :lol:


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

Aww come Boa, I have shared my stance being that I dont particularly give a toss  And it is true I don't care I am only participating in this thread to kill time and build my post count. Want to be 1 of these experts with 19078783 posts of experience lol

Duga,
Yet even if things are done differently members have voiced their opinion that they will still have a problem, that was my point. I understand shallow sight when in a mob mentality, so I will assume you mis-read those paragraphs aye  (Wasn't the petition started after Rays threats of legal matters against another site? and after the site owner cleaned out Hoser from that site leaving the slanderous posts intact incriminating him but deleting any posts he made trying to defend himself?) Nope absolutely no axes to grind at all.

I don't care, if you were to stop directing your posts towards me I would have no reason to reply.


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## NoOne (Aug 5, 2006)

So everyone that signed the petiton had an axe to grind with because of that?
I love all the speculation about why it was started, i'm a mod on that other sight and have seen the petition start up from the word go.

You believe whatever you want to believe about it J and C, us telling you any different isn't going to change your mind.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

Oh a bit of generalisation (oh well it spoke for the majority of signers anyway)
And there is alot of reasons why people hate Ray or have axes to grind. Venomoids is just 1.

From word go? So the petition was started years ago when Ray first came out publically announcing his venomoids? great to hear, shame you guys arn't faster to get things done. (no sarcasm intended lol)

And yes I will believe whatever I want to, thank you dearly for understanding my stance as I won't change my mind like you say, much appreciated :lol:


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## Greebo (Aug 5, 2006)

Round and round we go...what lap are we on now?


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## tyrone (Aug 5, 2006)

Think its about the 11th lap greebs


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

Well you are a mod Greebo, if it is a big deal lock or delete the thread simple. You could always leave the original post there for members to sign the petition. If deleting or locking is an issue than try to keep count of lap times for us seen as you are not racing.


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## Greebo (Aug 5, 2006)

It's not an issue. I just find repetition boring.
As for joining in the 'debate'...you can either sign the petition or not. My name is on there and that's all I need to say.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

Repetition is good fun.
I love Hybrid posts several times a week.
I love Hoser posts several times a week.
I love exotic posts several times a week.
I love GTP posts several times a week.
I love Petshop posts several times a week.
lmao see its fun


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## Greebo (Aug 5, 2006)

You forgot 
My snake wont eat posts several times a week.


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## Australis (Aug 5, 2006)

You dont have to post on threads that arent to your liking, you could just ignore them :? 

Yet you were quick to get involved in this thread and turn it into a Venomoid debate, dont complain about a petition you dont seem to comprehend.


Matt


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## JandC_Reptiles (Aug 5, 2006)

*yawn*
Should I bother to reply?

Hell yeah, 
I do comprehend it, do you comprehend the fact that majority of the signers are against venomoids in its entire, not just the lack of anethesia or the boof head performing the surgery? Do you also comprehend that majority of the signers also have issues (including yourself) against ray for talking about himself in the 3rd person? or insinuating he is the worlds leading Herpetologist etc? Are they not other issues apart from the so called "barbaric venomoid scandal"

I am always quick to reply to any post directed at myself. Answering someone is common courtesy, I find ignorance plain rude.

True I don't have to post on threads I find are boring, but hey I turn a boring thread into a marathon argument, good fun for all.

PS:
So the mob don't feel threatened in anyway that somebody ain't signing I will refrain from posting any further. Maybe I can find an exotic thread to heat up. 

Duga this is my last post here so if you want statistics go do a search &amp; read through every post containing the words Ray Hoser. Geez simply go through your own archives you have verbally bashed him yourself enough. But thats all just in good fun hey, no problem with the man as such just a good ol fashioned name calling etc from a group of friends that deep down like Ray lol


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## NoOne (Aug 5, 2006)

> do you comprehend the fact that majority of the signers are against venomoids in its entire, not just the lack of anethesia or the boof head performing the surgery? Do you also comprehend that majority of the signers also have issues (including yourself) against ray for talking about himself in the 3rd person? or insinuating he is the worlds leading Herpetologist etc? Are they not other issues apart from the so called "barbaric venomoid scandal"



What fact are you basing that on? How do you know this?


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## Sdaji (Aug 5, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> True I don't have to post on threads I find are boring, but hey I turn a boring thread into a marathon argument, good fun for all.



You're a true eherper 

Do I have to add my 2c to the debate to stay on topic or can I just post the above mundane excuse for witty banter?

*popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn* *popcorn*


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## soulweaver (Aug 5, 2006)

How many voids you got CC?


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## Kersten (Aug 5, 2006)

people have directed their comments toward you as you'd have us believe since you have done it on occasions when you weren't even mentioned, much less called wrong or argued with. I seem to recall myself going so far as to answer your questions about matters which weren't even relevant to the conversation such as what other issues I had with venomoids, and I got quite a giggle when you mentioned later that people adding their opinions on the other reasons for voiding as being some kind of proof that the barbarism of the practice wasn't the basis of the petition when in fact you'd bought those matters into the conversation yourself.

I think you're overestimating your influence to suggest that anyone feels threatened by you CC :wink:


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## NoOne (Aug 5, 2006)

LOL you like that edit button don't ya J and C :lol:


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## OuZo (Aug 5, 2006)

CC :shock:



> I do comprehend it, do you comprehend the fact that majority of the signers are against venomoids in its entire, not just the lack of anethesia or the boof head performing the surgery?



Lol you don't know that :lol:. If you don't mind I'd like you to make us a list with the names of the people who signed next to their aps user name, height, weight, eye colour and sexual fantasies.


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## newtosnakes (Aug 5, 2006)

ouzo, i didn't think that everyone knew my fantasies..... geez good secret keeper you are..... :roll:


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## snakegal (Aug 5, 2006)

At the end of the day this is never going to end unless ppl can agree to disagree. No one is either wrong or right on this debate as it's all purely ppls opinions.


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## tyrone (Aug 5, 2006)

Just curious how many ppl here have seen one of hosers shows or even seen/met hoser in person??


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## snakegal (Aug 5, 2006)

I haven't but heard of one at the Glen Shopping Centre, Glen Waverley, Vic in March this year I think. Did anyone go to that?


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## tyrone (Aug 5, 2006)

Snakegal he does shows most w/e's either at private parties or in shopping centres


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## AntaresiaLady (Aug 5, 2006)

I've never met or seen Ray Hoser.

I don't have a problem with him- its his practices that I don't like. 
I think I might open up a surgery in my back shed. I have a few planks of wood, a freezer and a couple of elastic bands spare....I even know a place that sells elastic bands wholesale so I'll have an endless supply.

I think that if you can sit back and watch something cruel or criminal happen and just sit and say nothing- then you're a [Personally Censored By Me]. 

When someone/something hurts/affects you or your family, or your kids...whose going to stand up for you? There'll be no one- because no one will give a crap because 'It doesn't affect me or my family or animals'. What a crappy world it would be if everyone didn't care.

What about when exotics that don't get reported take over and kill off native species- will you stand up then? Or do you just want a snake and couldn't give a [Censored By Me] what country it comes from? No pride it is. No pride at all. 

Thats what makes it sad for me. People standing back and doing nothing. God help you should something go wrong for you- because no one else will.


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## westhamsc (Aug 5, 2006)

> Just curious how many ppl here have seen one of hosers shows or even seen/met hoser in person??


i have met him and i'd like to hit him in that lettuce eating face of his and a select few know why i want to do this


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## Retic (Aug 5, 2006)

I agree with your first statement but not your second, nothing would make me dob someone in for having an exotic. 



AntaresiaLady said:


> I think that if you can sit back and watch something cruel or criminal happen and just sit and say nothing- then you're a [Personally Censored By Me].
> 
> When someone/something hurts/affects you or your family, or your kids...whose going to stand up for you? There'll be no one- because no one will give a crap because 'It doesn't affect me or my family or animals'. What a crappy world it would be if everyone didn't care.
> 
> What about when exotics that don't get reported take over and kill off native species- will you stand up then? Or do you just want a snake and couldn't give a [Censored By Me] what country it comes from? No pride it is. No pride at all.


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## cris (Aug 5, 2006)

> What about when exotics that don't get reported take over and kill off native species- will you stand up then? Or do you just want a snake and couldn't give a [Censored By Me] what country it comes from? No pride it is. No pride at all.


Thats why they should be legal and regulated, if someone can bring hybrids into this it will be the ultimate inferno :lol:


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## cris (Aug 5, 2006)

> i have met him and i'd like to hit him in that lettuce eating face of his and a select few know why i want to do this


Is he a chelsea supporter or something :lol:


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## HAVAGO (Aug 6, 2006)

AntaresiaLady said:


> I've never met or seen Ray Hoser.
> 
> I don't have a problem with him- its his practices that I don't like.
> I think I might open up a surgery in my back shed. I have a few planks of wood, a freezer and a couple of elastic bands spare....I even know a place that sells elastic bands wholesale so I'll have an endless supply.



I definately agree with this statement.


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## peterescue (Aug 6, 2006)

http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/


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## tyrone (Aug 6, 2006)

I only ask the question as soo many ppl have never met the guy and already have made judgments about him (no i am not sticking up for him)


Anterisia lady - wasnt it u who didnt even know what his procedure was until kersten told u what it was (cbf looking back through this thread for it)......... Its ppl like u who dont read any of the facts or even know what they are talking about but have an opinion on something they know f____ all about...... I suggest u read the papers and then u can have an opinion......
How can u make an accurate decision without even knowing the facts..... U r just a S_ _ _ stirrer basically..... So before u go judging ppl learn what u r judging them for...basically u r judging him by what the majority are argeeing too.... u r a lemming....... and yes i know if u speak out u will get blasted but who cares half the ppl on this site know sh_ _ all (there are exceptions) and are going with the flow ..

U all have opinions y not say them .... who cares what others think its is ur opinion and ur opinion only........

Like i said earlier....this petition may stop hoser but what about all the other ppl doing the same as hoser .... by reading his papers ppl r trying it.... how are u going to stop them all??



The above is said in no way agree with hoser........



And hahaha about the Lettuce thing westie....quite gross to watch ay lol...gotta love the pizza too ...... (its not for the faint hearted)

Ignore spelling and grammer..... flame away.....


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## Australis (Aug 6, 2006)

tyrone said:


> U all have opinions y not say them .... who cares what others think its is ur opinion and ur opinion only........



Thanks for sharing "your" opinion with us Tyrone :roll: 

Or should i say your "attack"

If you read the petition yourself, perhaps you would see its focused at Ray not Voiding as a whole.

Ray is flaunting his activity and basically proves a "how to" guide in the form of his paper on his voiding practice :evil: 


Matt


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## NoOne (Aug 6, 2006)

Don't take tyrone to seriously, apprently he's been keeping for ten years and knows heaps :roll: reckons yogurt is good food for shinglebacks to if i remember rightly.


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## tyrone (Aug 6, 2006)

MattQld83 said:


> Or should i say your "attack"
> 
> If you read the petition yourself, perhaps you would see its focused at Ray not Voiding as a whole.



Thanks for ur in sight into this debate matt......


If u read my so called "attack" u would relise i was pointing out that anterisia lady didnt know what happened in the procedure (nothing to do with ray) and dint know the facts on the procedure...... but has still made a dozen or more posts in this thread about something she knows nothing about....... Even had an arguement against JandC.....

I never once said the petition was against Ray... but against the procedure.....

I dont have anything against ray ...except maybe his eating habits hahahaha

And thanks again for ur opinion

Cheers, 
Ty


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## AntaresiaLady (Aug 6, 2006)

> Anterisia lady - wasnt it u who didnt even know what his procedure was until kersten told u what it was (cbf looking back through this thread for it)......... Its ppl like u who dont read any of the facts or even know what they are talking about but have an opinion on something they know f____ all about...... I suggest u read the papers and then u can have an opinion......
> How can u make an accurate decision without even knowing the facts..... U r just a S_ _ _ stirrer basically..... So before u go judging ppl learn what u r judging them for...basically u r judging him by what the majority are argeeing too.... u r a lemming....... and yes i know if u speak out u will get blasted but who cares half the ppl on this site know sh_ _ all (there are exceptions) and are going with the flow ..



Tyrone...let me just make a point here. I was misinformed about the process, as I was shown a video a few months back that they said was 'creating a venomoid' for want of a better phrase. They took out the fangs as well as the venom glands in the operation I witnessed. That video then caused my perception of what Ray is doing, as he refers to it by the same name.

It was a pure misunderstanding, which I explained in a previous post. 



> Its ppl like u who dont read any of the facts or even know what they are talking about but have an opinion on something they know f____ all about...... I suggest u read the papers and then u can have an opinion......



I don't need to read someones papers on removing an animals body parts to make it safe for humans to play with in order to have the opinion that its barbaric and just another example of humans playing God.

I know when something is WRONG. I don't need someone else to tell me that the act of sticky taping and elastic banding a snake to a plank of wood to rip out its venom glands is wrong... I'm smart enough to make my own mind up- regardless of what people like you think. Don't assume anything about me- because you have no idea who I am. And if I were you- I'd not talk about someones intelligence- considering the state of your post- if I was to make assumptions on it- I'd be forced to think you were a common, uneducated moron. 

But unlike you, I don't assume anything about a persons intelligence level by their posts- because as has been pointed out many times, people have lots of different reasons for posting the way they do. 

I'm bowing out of this thread now- as I will not lower myself to the standards to which its dropped.


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## tyrone (Aug 6, 2006)

dugadugabowbow said:


> Don't take tyrone to seriously, apprently he's been keeping for ten years and knows heaps :roll: reckons yogurt is good food for shinglebacks to if i remember rightly.



Hahahaha Steve u know me only too well :roll:


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## MrBredli (Aug 6, 2006)

> I dont have anything against ray ...except maybe his eating habits hahahaha



Why does he eat snakes or something?


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## tyrone (Aug 6, 2006)

No Mr Bredli u have to meet him to know ...and as most ppl on this site havnt met him .... and make judgments from others opionons ...... they will never find out


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## cris (Aug 6, 2006)

Watch out Tyrone your about to be savaged by a flock of sheep :lol:


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## NoOne (Aug 6, 2006)

you don't have to have met him to dislike what he does to his vens.


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## NoOne (Aug 6, 2006)

cris said:


> Watch out Tyrone your about to be savaged by a flock of sheep :lol:



Tyrone is one sheep out of many flocks chris


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## MrBredli (Aug 6, 2006)

Come on, tell me what he eats.. it's lizards isn't it?


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## tyrone (Aug 6, 2006)

[quote="AntaresiaLady]
Tyrone...let me just make a point here. I was misinformed about the process, as I was shown a video a few months back that they said was 'creating a venomoid' for want of a better phrase. They took out the fangs as well as the venom glands in the operation I witnessed. That video then caused my perception of what Ray is doing, as he refers to it by the same name.
[/quote]


There are many methods to making venomoids .... hosers is one way that has been successful...

Ripping fangs out wont do anything as they will grow back




> And if I were you- I'd not talk about someones intelligence- considering the state of your post- if I was to make assumptions on it- I'd be forced to think you were a common, uneducated moron.



When did i question ur intelligence .... for all i know u could be a genius :?




> But unlike you, I don't assume anything about a persons intelligence level by their posts-



Hell if i did that i would think half the ppl on here are absolute morons... but i dont................ :roll: [/quote]


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## Rennie (Aug 6, 2006)

No he likes reptiles, I don't think he'd eat them, I think it must be roaches, crickets, rats and mice etc.

What other rumours can we start about him?


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## tyrone (Aug 6, 2006)

dugadugabowbow said:


> cris said:
> 
> 
> > Watch out Tyrone your about to be savaged by a flock of sheep :lol:
> ...



MMM i smell lamb roast for tea tonight :wink:


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## tyrone (Aug 6, 2006)

cris said:


> Watch out Tyrone your about to be savaged by a flock of sheep :lol:



I thought i called all u lemmings :wink:


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## cris (Aug 6, 2006)

I personally think the new thread for the petition is misleading...


> No pain mitigation


Well that isnt proven as far as i know, I personally dont think anyone really knows for sure what effect sticking them in the fridge has.
Unless you can back what you say up with facts your word is no more powerful than Ray saying that it isnt cruel.

To me this is the key issue about the whole thing, if someone could prove to me that the snakes have full feeling through the operation i would even consider signing.


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## peterescue (Aug 6, 2006)

I dont have the paperwork in front of me but its illegal for me to use freezing and refridgeration for euthanaising reptiles. One reason given is that it causes extreme pain. 
I personally would be working from the other point of view. Prove to me that they dont feel pain.

doesnt prve much but heres the first link I found when i typed in reptiles and pain

http://www.provet.co.uk/Reptiles/reptileanalgesia.htm

you need to ask yourself, do snakes react to pain, do they guard against pain. They wont eat if they have a lesion or swelling in or around the mouth.


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## cris (Aug 6, 2006)

> I personally would be working from the other point of view. Prove to me that they dont feel pain.


I can see your point, I just dont think its right to say either way. From what i can see its far from clear cut and dependant on neurological and nerve related factors that vary from species to species.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Aug 6, 2006)

> I dont have the paperwork in front of me but its illegal for me to use freezing and refridgeration for euthanaising reptiles.


this is proven for sure.blood freezing in live animals is painful.
the argument would/should surely be that bringing an animals temp down for surgery, not freezing,creates the torper needed for the said surgery to be performed painlessly.
very hard to prove and unfortunatly reptiles, the guys we all love, are not far enough up the evolutionary tree to warrant the govts interest and the cash needed to prove otherwise.
the treatment of our beef lamb pork and chicken would testify to that...
jmo
baz
im not a vet but i can legally cut the balls and horns of a heathy steer
debeak a chicken and cut the asss of a lamb


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## tyrone (Aug 8, 2006)

Bump for pertition 

http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/


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