# What should be done with sibs?



## champagne (Sep 26, 2013)

No one is going to stop the breeding of jags, zebras other cross morphs, so what should be done with the sibs? I personally think that they should be culled, so that these mongrels don't get sold and then passed off as "pure".


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## butters (Sep 26, 2013)

I hate to say it but I agree with you.

Although I can appreciate a nice hybrid I will probably never knowingly own one and will never produce any hybrids from my collection. Just dont float my boat and prefer my species as pure as i can. Also i would have issues in producing something myself knowing i would be culling some of the offspring.

Reality is they are here to stay.

The only pro as far as I am concerned is a visually appealing snake.

Everthing else to do with them is a con.



just my opinion


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## KaotikJezta (Sep 26, 2013)

I personally think that people should not breed any animal that has to have offspring killed because they are not 'up to standard' or because they are 'mongrels'. They are living, breathing, healthy little snakes and I would rather see morph breeding eradicated if the outcome is going to be killing them.


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## champagne (Sep 26, 2013)

At least jags where always through to be crosses and sibs are labelled, but what happens to the zebra sibs that were crossed back to a jungle? They will be sold as pure jungles.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 26, 2013)

I personally think that they shouldnt be bred at all, simple as that.

As said before anyone that is going to breed snakes with the intention of killing some shouldnt be keeping snakes in the first place. It will end up comming back and biting them in the bum for sure, just wait and see. Its all ready happened. And tough titty to them I say. lol.


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## cement (Sep 26, 2013)

I have a moral issue with it, and for the sake of owning a "ZEBRA" (big deal!!), there still only snakes for christ sake.
I get to euthanase enough snakes thanks very much without having to kill the ones I breed.


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## Newhere (Sep 26, 2013)

I've seen jungle jag sibs advertised as pure jungles, so will these things end up growing as big as a coastal because they are half or one quarter coastal?

You will never convince people to start culling their sibs as that is money they could of made selling them off as whatever species they look like. Lets not forget that the people that breed these animals are motivated by money and nothing nothing else.

They should at least advertise them for what they really are and see how many people want them.


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## saintanger (Sep 26, 2013)

i don't agree killing them just cause they are mungrels but the breeders/ sellers should advertise them for what they are. and if they don't they should be named and shamed - maybe we should have a site were people can name and shame sellers/ breeders who lie about what they are selling. as i know we can not name and shame here, so many buyers buy something and then find out wen its to late.


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Sep 26, 2013)

why cull a sib because its a cross. 
a Indian women and a Australia man have a child together. should it be culled because its a cross?


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## andynic07 (Sep 26, 2013)

I think a pedigree system should be available. That way if someone wants to on sell something as something else it makes it hard or it is sold without papers without guarantee of heritage at a lower price. Maybe it is too late for this system but I think it would make things a lot clearer and maybe reduce the animosity around the place. It would work equally as well for jags and crosses as it would for pure breeds.

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Cold-B-Hearts said:


> why cull a sib because its a cross.
> a Indian women and a Australia man have a child together. should it be culled because its a cross?


I think the idea of it being culled is to stop it being on sold as something else rather than it being a cross.


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## champagne (Sep 26, 2013)

They will continue to be bred so what do you think should be done about the sib problem? Not breeding jags is not a realist solution because it won't happen


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## Stevo2 (Sep 26, 2013)

Culled and the practice of breeding hybrids should cease. Like either is ever going to happen... *sigh*

Also happens in parrots and people are messing around with hybrids because they want to a) breed something different, b) breed something 'shiny' that will sell for $$ or, c) because they couldn't bare to part the 'happy' couple of different species and making babies is every bodies right... (never mind that forced pairings are hardly a matter of free choice...).


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## Trimeresurus (Sep 26, 2013)

Cold-B-Hearts said:


> why cull a sib because its a cross.
> a Indian women and a Australia man have a child together. should it be culled because its a cross?



If they're going to be bred (which they are) cull the sibs.


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## longqi (Sep 26, 2013)

I personally dont believe hybrid breeders are only in it for the money

Some are
But others genuinely seem to believe that their breeding programs will benefit the pet industry
They are probably quite correct about that

This is where the water starts getting murky

Breeder wants x/x/x
So they start mixing and matching the best of each sub species together
A few come out nice and are kept
A few come out not too bad and are sold
Most come out ordinary

As far as I know all legal documents in Aus regarding sale of reptiles include the full scientific name
Even if a hybrid breeder wanted to they cannot simply say Carpet Python etc
So no matter what mix it is they must put one of cheynei,bredli,spilota etc etc on the document
Then you have a legal document stating that the hybrid is not a hybrid but a 'pure' xxxxx
With some hybrids their parentage is clear and they can easily be picked as crosses
With others they look like either parent and can easily be mistaken as 'pure' lines

So they only possile way to maintain 'pure lines' in the future is to cull hybrid siblings

Question
Do you want to be part of an industry that kills healthy babies because they dont fit into plan XXXX???

Question
Is there a workable alternative to culling hybrid siblings???


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## Jacknife (Sep 27, 2013)

I think if they're clearly labelled as sibs of 'whatever' species then there is nothing wrong, there will always be someone willing to give an animal a home. Far better than culling them for the sake of convenience.
Unscroupulous people will always have their hands in anything and everything, it's part of human nature and free market economy.
Making laws and blanket policies on what can be bred and what must be culled ect. will do nothing to ever stop it happening, and if anything will see a rise in people passing off 'x' snake as 'y' snake as they - as forced by law - must call it something it clearly is not.


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## longqi (Sep 27, 2013)

Badsville said:


> I think if they're clearly labelled as sibs of 'whatever' species then there is nothing wrong, there will always be someone willing to give an animal a home.



That sentence is the core of the problem
Breeder produces 15 hatchies
10 are given away or sold as hybrid siblings
They look like mum or dad; not crosses
Owner then gets bored and sells them
On paper they are 'pure' xxxx
New owner breeds them thinking they are 'pure' and sells the result as 'pure'
One or two generations later the mixed genes start showing up

So culling hybrid siblings is NOT just a matter of convenience


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## champagne (Sep 27, 2013)

longqi said:


> I personally dont believe hybrid breeders are only in it for the money
> 
> Some are
> But others genuinely seem to believe that their breeding programs will benefit the pet industry
> ...



I don't want to be apart of a hobby that kills healthy animal for the sake of some pretty ones but unfortunately that horse has bolted. I don't think anything can be done now because no one culled these sibs at the start and now it's seen as being fine to cross breed anything you want. The hobby is split forever but you will always find pure stock, they will just cost more and be less around. I do believe it will get to a point where pure animals will be taken from the wild illegally to get known genetics back into the hobby. Sad really


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## Jacknife (Sep 27, 2013)

longqi said:


> That sentence is the core of the problem
> Breeder produces 15 hatchies
> 10 are given away or sold as hybrid siblings
> They look like mum or dad; not crosses
> ...



I think you missed my point, the above highlighted that you mention is the unscrupulous jerk part of the equation that exists. As long as they are passed on with the knowledge they are sibs/hybrids even though on paper they are only 'x' I don't see the problem.

Last week I sold a pair of diamond x jungles which were Jag sibs. They were sold to me with the clear knowledge of what they were and I sold them with VERY clear and specific information of what they were. As they're roughly 75% Diamond they are listed as Spilota Spilota but quite clearly are not pure diamonds in any way from appearances, and there is no way they can be legitimately passed off as them.

But I guess therein lies the difference - I'm a conscienscous owner and not an unscrupulous jerk...

I think the real core of the issue when it comes to hiding a snakes genetic makeup is an issue with state licensing departments and their taxa held lists. If hybrids/sibs were on schedule lists then they would be able to be labelled and sold as exactly what they are instead of what they nearest resemble.


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## andynic07 (Sep 27, 2013)

Badsville said:


> I think you missed my point, the above highlighted that you mention is the unscrupulous jerk part of the equation that exists. As long as they are passed on with the knowledge they are sibs/hybrids even though on paper they are only 'x' I don't see the problem.
> 
> Last week I sold a pair of diamond x jungles which were Jag sibs. They were sold to me with the clear knowledge of what they were and I sold them with VERY clear and specific information of what they were. As they're roughly 75% Diamond they are listed as Spilota Spilota but quite clearly are not pure diamonds in any way from appearances, and there is no way they can be legitimately passed off as them.
> 
> ...



That is what I was trying to achieve with bringing in pedigrees.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 27, 2013)

longqi,-
The statement you made, "the only possible way to maintain pure lines in the future is to cull sibblings", is wrong.
All my animals are pure and always will be and i dont need to cull anything to maintain this for the future.


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## wokka (Sep 27, 2013)

saintanger said:


> and if they don't they should be named and shamed - maybe we should have a site were people can name and shame sellers/ breeders who lie about what they are selling. as i know we can not name and shame here, so many buyers buy something and then find out wen its to late.


Isn't that what facebook is for?


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## saintanger (Sep 27, 2013)

lol, i guess so, but not everyone uses face book. and even the ones who do not all see wen someone gets mentioned for selling something as something else. if there was an actual page were people could put sellers/ breeders names, what state they are in and what they did to them with a pic of the animal sold. then we could do a quick search before buying anything.


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## Newhere (Sep 27, 2013)

Yeah I don't use facebook and would like to know who is dodgy and who to stay away from. Lots of the older people on here that have been in the hobby for years would know all the shady people and who to avoid and it would be good to have all that info available.

Only thing is people could just put false info on there and ruin an honest persons reputation and that would be a shame.


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## AmazingMorelia (Sep 27, 2013)

In time alot of people will just do what we do, and that is we wont buy any carpets from anyone who keeps and breeds cross bred animals. So many jungle jag sibs are been sold off as pure jungles, so many albino Darwins sold are infact albino crosses, and so many jag sibs are sold off as pure coastals it isnt funny. 
In 10 years time a pure diamond or hot yellow jungle is going to be worth more than a jag or zebra.


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## longqi (Sep 27, 2013)

Badsville said:


> I think you missed my point, the above highlighted that you mention is the unscrupulous jerk part of the equation that exists. As long as they are passed on with the knowledge they are sibs/hybrids even though on paper they are only 'x' I don't see the problem.
> 
> Last week I sold a pair of diamond x jungles which were Jag sibs. They were sold to me with the clear knowledge of what they were and I sold them with VERY clear and specific information of what they were. As they're roughly 75% Diamond they are listed as Spilota Spilota but quite clearly are not pure diamonds in any way from appearances, and there is no way they can be legitimately passed off as them.
> 
> ...



If the reptiles are visually very clearly crosses that is ok
Main problem is when the crosses dont look like crosses and are resold a couple of times

While it remains illegal to breed hybrids no governing body will include them on a list

No way the cat is getting back in the bag now
So someone in authority needs to make a stand on this one


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## TrueBlue (Sep 27, 2013)

AmazingMorelia,

IMO they already are worth more.
Anyone who pays good money,(or any money for that matter), for a peice of rubbish hybrid, jag or what ever, needs their head read. But hey as they say,' theres one born every minute'. lol.

Pure animals especially locality pure animals will be worth their weight in gold in the not to distant future. Its starting to happen already.
Maybe we should be thanking the jagheads and cross breeders, in the end is all they are doing is setting up an awsome long term market for us honest people in the hobby. When they have only had a short window to rip people off with.


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## longqi (Sep 27, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> longqi,-
> The statement you made, "the only possible way to maintain pure lines in the future is to cull sibblings", is wrong.
> All my animals are pure and always will be and i dont need to cull anything to maintain this for the future.



My bad
I should have included the word hybrid before siblings


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## TrueBlue (Sep 27, 2013)

Cool.


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## Snowman (Sep 27, 2013)

What if they were used as food? Is it okay to breed one animal and cull it for food but not another?
Personal opinion is I'm not into JAGs and zebs.


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## longqi (Sep 27, 2013)

Snowman said:


> What if they were used as food? Is it okay to breed one animal and cull it for food but not another?
> Personal opinion is I'm not into JAGs and zebs.



We all have to ask one question
Do I want to be part of a industry that kills unwanted/unsaleable results of breeding projects??


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## ingie (Sep 27, 2013)

We are all part of that industry already- (well, similar) the rat industry (as different to the food for humans industry, because we need to eat to survive, but we don't need to breed reptiles for pets, who then need to be fed). Seems hypocritical for it to be fine for one animal but not another. I don't agree with anything going to waste though, and I have no interest in ever breeding or owning Jags. I don't think it is an outrage for people to humanely cull anything so long as it is used for a purpose and not wasted (eg food).

I would not like to be involved in something where animals are culled because they aren't wanted, and then are wasted by being thrown in the bin. I think it is such a waste that all the dog and cats that are put to sleep every year are not able to be recycled into food for animals or something non wasteful.


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## Snowman (Sep 27, 2013)

longqi said:


> We all have to ask one question
> Do I want to be part of a industry that kills unwanted/unsaleable results of breeding projects??


Not all. It's not a question for us in WA. Land of the pure imbriacata and variegata.. Maybe our over regulated system got something right?

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ingie said:


> We are all part of that industry already- (well, similar) the rat industry (as different to the food for humans industry, because we need to eat to survive, but we don't need to breed reptiles for pets, who then need to be fed). Seems hypocritical for it to be fine for one animal but not another. I don't agree with anything going to waste though, and I have no interest in ever breeding or owning Jags. But I don't think it is an outrage for people to humanely cull anything so long as it is used for a purpose and not wasted (eg food).


That's what I was getting at...


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## ingie (Sep 27, 2013)

Sorry I edited my post a bit


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## Jacknife (Sep 27, 2013)

longqi said:


> If the reptiles are visually very clearly crosses that is ok
> Main problem is when the crosses dont look like crosses and are resold a couple of times
> 
> While it remains illegal to breed hybrids no governing body will include them on a list
> ...



I think we finally see eye to eye on this


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## reptinate (Sep 27, 2013)

I think they should be kept by the person breeding them or sold to trusted buyers. Surely something can be worked out? Couldn't a pedigree system be set up, like someone else said?
Otherwise they should not be bred. And anyone who does breed them and then kills off some perfectly healthy babies should be named and shamed. There is no justification for killing healthy babies for no reason. I don't care whether some may be sold as pure later on. And like I said in the other thread. Anyone who does do it does not love reptiles, IMO. Don't know how you could claim to when you had no problem killing off perfectly healthy individuals. 

I don't really have a problem with certain morphs if the sibs aren't killed. But people wonder why some are so vocally against them. This sort of disgusting thing is why! Brings more trouble than it's worth. If such a horrible thing has to be part of the breeding of them, then why can't people just stand back and say 'Is this right?' 'Should we be doing this?' 'Should we allow this?'

What't more important. Stopping thousands of healthy hatchies dying. Or a nice new pattern? I hope we can find a way other than killing them. But a big part of me thinks some won't bother. Some breeders will choose to just kill them.

People will want morphs, breeders will want to create new morphs and get the money. All the while all those innocent snakes will die.

Seems like such a lack of compassion.


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## Red-Ink (Sep 27, 2013)

Some sibs are pretty... can you de-sex snakes?


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## ronhalling (Sep 27, 2013)

longqi said:


> I personally dont believe hybrid breeders are only in it for the money Some are But others genuinely seem to believe that their breeding programs will benefit the pet industry They are probably quite correct about that This is where the water starts getting murky Breeder wants x/x/x So they start mixing and matching the best of each sub species together A few come out nice and are kept A few come out not too bad and are sold Most come out ordinary As far as I know all legal documents in Aus regarding sale of reptiles include the full scientific name Even if a hybrid breeder wanted to they cannot simply say Carpet Python etc So no matter what mix it is they must put one of cheynei,bredli,spilota etc etc on the document Then you have a legal document stating that the hybrid is not a hybrid but a 'pure' xxxxx With some hybrids their parentage is clear and they can easily be picked as crosses With others they look like either parent and can easily be mistaken as 'pure' lines So they only possile way to maintain 'pure lines' in the future is to cull hybrid siblings Question Do you want to be part of an industry that kills healthy babies because they dont fit into plan XXXX??? Question Is there a workable alternative to culling hybrid siblings???


 I think the following pics pretty well sums up what longqi has said, if this was available at the right price i would have no problem buying it, morph, jag, jag sib be damned  ....................Ron


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## Jeffa (Sep 27, 2013)

I am also very worried about the prospect of a trial and error newbie breeder that crosses some non sellable snakes but does not have the heart to freeze them. So he lets them go in the state forest down the road so they can muddy the wild populations of snakes. (hell, they are doing it with corns)!

Its sick enough to muddy the hobby with non trueful sellers, but to screw up the wild populations genetics just really annoys me!!!


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## Lawra (Sep 27, 2013)

Woma food! What a great idea


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## Umbral (Sep 27, 2013)

The issue which name and shame threads or Facebook is that you see so many people posting what is this threads, the replies vary greatly at at the end of the day people who are selling pure animals may end up tarnished.

Each to their own I like my pure animals but could understand people cross breeding, the only issue I have is with scumbags trying to get more money by conning people into buying something by lying about what it is and ruining future generations chances of owning a pure animal.


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## longqi (Sep 27, 2013)

reptinate said:


> And anyone who does breed them and then kills off some perfectly healthy babies should be named and shamed. There is no justification for killing healthy babies for no reason. I don't care whether some may be sold as pure later on.



That is exactly where you are wrong
If every hybrid sibling was culled there could never be any problem

You really do need to care about hybrid siblings being sold as pure
Breeder breeds hybrid sibling and sells it as hyrid sibling
Buyer gets bored sells snake
new buyer sells snake
By this time no record exists that it was a hybrid sibling
In fact all legal papers state it is pure
New buyer breeds it
All hatchies are sold as pure

Exactly that scenario is happening now and will happen more in the future
Can the last breeder be blamed?
Absolutely not because his paperwork and the visual look of the snake may both indicate pure

So this is a very tricky subject to discus openly

IMO any breeders who cull hybrid siblings should be congratulated for making a hard descision
IMO putting yourself in the position of having to make that descision is a whole new thread


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## reptinate (Sep 27, 2013)

longqi said:


> That is exactly where you are wrong
> If every hybrid sibling was culled there could never be any problem
> 
> You really do need to care about hybrid siblings being sold as pure
> ...



Well yes, if they were all killed then there wouldn't be a problem with hybrids being sold as pure. But what about the problem that thousands of healthy snakes will be killed? Why is this acceptable? All because someone wants to breed the next best thing.

I absolutely care about hybrids being sold as pure. I just think there has to be a better way to deal with it that doesn't involve killing them. If no way can be found then they shouldn't be bred and we shouldn't accept it. Can't a system be set up like with purebred dogs? May take more time and effort but surely it's better.

In my opinion they should not be congratulated for doing such a thing. A breeder who may be thinking of breeding them, but then realises that it's just not right if killing healthy snakes is a part of it, should be congratulated. Someone who goes ahead and breeds them, knowing that killing off some of the babies will happen, and still chooses to do it, should be shamed. For some who do it it may be hard, but the situation is completely avoidable. Don't breed them. I think some others wouldn't really have a problem doing it.

It makes me a little ashamed to be a part of the reptile community if this sort of thing is happening


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## Justdragons (Sep 27, 2013)

There is a name and shame if you get sold a dodgy animal or service. its buyer feedback. But not to be abused. 

I dont understand at the start what made someone think that they could cross out the jag gene. at the start it was in pure coastals if im not mistaken. 

Ingie- im somewhat on the same page. prevention is the best cure and its about time the lic board put a stop to cross breeding and all grey zones, there is not point in senseless killing. But i guess for some folk there is better money in the fancy morphs(for some thats all that matters). Im some what of a hypocrite because i own and love my albino but id say its a natural form of any living species and what you see is what you get. 

As long as there are purists out there there will always be pure forms of species and one day they will be worth their weight in gold, keep fighting the good fight guys cause i know im going to. 

Toby


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## longqi (Sep 27, 2013)

reptinate said:


> Well yes, if they were all killed then there wouldn't be a problem with hybrids being sold as pure. But what about the problem that thousands of healthy snakes will be killed? Why is this acceptable? All because someone wants to breed the next best thing.
> 
> In my opinion they should not be congratulated for doing such a thing. A breeder who may be thinking of breeding them, but then realises that it's just not right if killing healthy snakes is a part of it, should be congratulated. Someone who goes ahead and breeds them, knowing that killing off some of the babies will happen, and still chooses to do it, should be shamed.
> 
> It makes me a little ashamed to be a part of the reptile community if this sort of thing is happening



Now we are getting into the nitty griity bit

Paint jobs are here and will keep on being bred
Nothing can stop that now

So what is the best thing to do with unwanted hybrid siblings??
Only practical answer is to cull them to help prevent the mess they have over seas with even attempting to identify snakes

If they cannot bring yourself to cull them,,,, dont breed them
If they can cull them I may despise them for putting themselves in that position
BUT I would also thank them for not messing up the gene pool any more than they have done already

That then raises the second point I made
If a breeder does love snakes, how can they put themselves into a position where killing unwanted hybrid siblings is the best thing to do???

Snowman
2 years ago did a visa run to Perth
Played with boas kings gtps jags diamonds albinos and jungles at a few different places
So although its not as open there WA will face the same problem sooner rather than later


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## champagne (Sep 27, 2013)

Jeffa said:


> I am also very worried about the prospect of a trial and error newbie breeder that crosses some non sellable snakes but does not have the heart to freeze them. So he lets them go in the state forest down the road so they can muddy the wild populations of snakes. (hell, they are doing it with corns)!
> 
> Its sick enough to muddy the hobby with non trueful sellers, but to screw up the wild populations genetics just really annoys me!!!



can I just say please no one just put a sib in the freezer, it would be a very slow painful death. If they are to be culled it should be done humanly

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reptinate said:


> Well yes, if they were all killed then there wouldn't be a problem with hybrids being sold as pure. But what about the problem that thousands of healthy snakes will be killed? Why is this acceptable? All because someone wants to breed the next best thing.



it isn't acceptable but that is another thread people will breed crosses and the sibs are a problem. so how do we deal with them? not to breed crosses would be great but its not going to happen

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longqi said:


> Now we are getting into the nitty griity bit
> 
> Paint jobs are here and will keep on being bred
> Nothing can stop that now
> ...



this post is exactly what this thread is about.... not ''just don't breed hybrids'' it would be great but not going to happen


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## Rogue5861 (Sep 27, 2013)

I believe that all sibs should be culled, but who is going to check up all all breeders to make sure that these so call 'sibs have been culled? As said it isnt hard to pass most sibs off as pure, any breeder could just say that were pure pair of coastals produce these offspring and that they were no cross bred to another in there collection. Why would a breeder kill of 75% of a clutch just to satisfy the masses when they can still sell them and make money?

A pedigree system is going to cost the people breeding/buying pures and not the jag owners, how is this fair for purists? We all know prices of legit locale's are sell for more then any sib or any unknown locale animal, these prices will only increase more and start to outprice jags and the likes. Ive seen some species of carpets going for between $100-$200, prices of known locals going for atleast double.

Those that are keeping known locale and pure species just need to keep it up, not only will you still have beautiful animals but it will adventually pay off for you. I dont doubt the prices will increase as it becomes harder and harder to get a pure animal.

There is always going to be people new to the hobby buying there first snakes cheapy, these will most likely become the market for sibs but they are definately not going away.


Rick


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## ronhalling (Sep 27, 2013)

If not culling is there any other way these sibs can have a permanent identification attatched ie scale clipping or tail tip clipping or some sort of tagging system so that in future these sibs cannot be passed off as pure's and the breeders looking for that next best thing could still sell the sibs to recoup some money without the stigma that culling is going to come with, just having a brain fart and throwing some possable alternatives out there.  .......................................Ron


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## Darlyn (Sep 28, 2013)

What a sad discussion, let's breed animals then kill the ones that are unappealing.......pffft.


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## longqi (Sep 28, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> What a sad discussion, let's breed animals then kill the ones that are unappealing.......pffft.



Exactly right Lynn
This is a VERY sad discussion
But it is something that needs to be discussed openly

IF there is another way other than culling that may work I would support that
But so far no other workable solution has been proposed

Only other one that may have worked is legally registering the siblings as hybrids
But no government agency is going to allow the legal registration of an illegally bred reptile

Desexing all hybrid siblings might work in theory but because the cost of desexing is more that sale value of 
any hybrid sibling could not work in practice


If a thread like this makes a potential hybrid breeder think more clearly about the future it was worth it


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## cement (Sep 28, 2013)

longqi said:


> But it is something that needs to be discussed openly



Pretty one sided discussion.
Wonder why no jag or hybrid breeders are here, discussing their methods?


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## Stevo2 (Sep 28, 2013)

cement said:


> Pretty one sided discussion.
> Wonder why no jag or hybrid breeders are here, discussing their methods?



Must be too busy off concocting their next monstrosity... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## yellowbeard (Sep 28, 2013)

The NSW Native Animal Keepers Species List provides a list of possible hybrids ("sibs"). Therefore any "sibs" (hybrids) created must be recorded as such and sold as such, if a breeder chooses not to they could lose their licence.
Below are a few hybrids from that list:
Antaresia childreni x Antaresia maculosa
Antaresia childreni x Antaresia stimsons
Morelia spilota cheynei x Morelia spilota variegate
Morelia spilota mcdowelli x Morelia bredliPogona barbata x Pogona vitticeps
Tiliqua scincoides x Tiliqua nigrolutea
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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I found this on the Murdoch University web site, interesting.

Warren, K. (2012) _Reptile euthanasia: No easy solution?_ In: ANZCCART Conference 2012 - Thinking Outside the Cage: A different point of view, 24 - 26 July, Perth, Western Australia.

[h=2]Abstract[/h]Reptiles are commonly the subjects of biological or ecological research projects, and veterinarians or wildlife researchers may be required to euthanase a reptile if it sustains a severe injury associated with the research. When conducting euthanasia of any animal it is critical to confirm death. Whilst in mammals and birds euthanasia and confirmation of death can easily be accomplished, in reptiles these are not straightforward processes due to reptilian poikilothermic biology and physiology. Many traditional methods of reptile euthanasia are controversial and recommended methods of acceptable euthanasia vary amongst the different reptilian orders. Physical methods of euthanasia involving hypothermia or decapitation alone are considered inhumane and are not acceptable methods of euthanasia. Injectable pentobarbitone sodiuln is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for all reptiles, except large crocodiles and other large reptile species where carcass removal in the wild may be problematic e.g. sea turtles. However, pentobarbitone sodium is a Scheduled 4 drug with requirements for storage in a locked environment and users other than registered veterinarians must apply for authorisation to administer scheduled drugs. Stunning and destruction of the brain is considered acceptable with reservations in some species of snakes and lizards. Humane euthanasia in reptiles is not easily accomplished and, whilst recognising limitations in accessing veterinary anaesthetic and euthanasia drugs, it can best be assured by using a two-stage euthanasia process - whereby the reptile is initially anaesthetised, and then euthanased by administration of pentobarbitone sodium or decapitation and brain destruction following anaesthesia.


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## cement (Sep 28, 2013)

There is other problems involved with this too that aren't listed here, but need to be considered when euthing wild reptiles.

As far as captive bred goes though, that is completely up to the breeders indiscretion, and no-one really knows what goes on there, except the individuals involved. Its talked about within the circles, but even if captive bred animals were euthed humanely, it is still a practice that isn't condoned by the general majority.
Some don't blink an eye, and thats not hard to understand if you come from the bush, where everyday, life and death go hand in hand.
For city and suburban reptile hobbyists,especially newbies, its difficult and confronting.
At the end of the day its the newbies who cop the brunt of anything crappy in the hobby. Not knowing what is what....caught up in the exitement of owning herps....loss of hard earned cash thinking your buying something when its something else...not knowing about the bigger picture and how simple, seemingly insignificant things, like hybridising actually affect them or others.


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## Saphira (Sep 28, 2013)

I retract my original post, upon further research into the issue at hand, I believe herps should be kept 'pure'. Cross breeding or morphing any animal has plenty of physical and moral issues, 'boring' or 'mongrel' sibs being just one of them. Although I am sure the practice of cross breeding will never be fully eradicated, what about a 'x-breeders license' which breeders need to get, but must show aptitude and knowledge of breeding responsibly before being granted said license???
Just my 2 cents worth lol.


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## hulloosenator (Sep 28, 2013)

cement said:


> Pretty one sided discussion.
> Wonder why no jag or hybrid breeders are here, discussing their methods?



Exactly........well said Cement. 

All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future. 
nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
Hybrids create interest and those breeding them dont get on here because they hear the same old thing time and time again......BORING....!

So....if you have all these Jags and whatever crossbreeds that you dont want , then give them to me and they will live out their lives in peace without you hanging over them with hate and anguish on how will you kill it.......geeeez....!


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## Newhere (Sep 28, 2013)

Some people paint their nails because they think they are boring lol I like mine just the way nature made em 

Also please don't include me in your statistics, I am somebody and when you say nobody wants to see the same old snakes you are including me. Speak for yourself.


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## Saphira (Sep 28, 2013)

Also please don't include me in your statistics, I am somebody and when you say nobody wants to see the same old snakes you are including me. Speak for yourself.[/QUOTE]

Or me. I love my antaresia pure and healthy. What makes us think we can do better than nature has done for thousands of years? ??


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## longqi (Sep 28, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> Exactly........well said Cement.
> 
> All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future.
> nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
> ...



I really dont think its a question of 'hating hybrids'
Paint jobs are now part of the system
Nothing can stop that
Some of them are pretty cool

This debate arose from the question about 'unwanted hybrid siblings'
They are definitely a potential cause for concern

What exactly do the hybrid breeders do with these now??

Example
You say please give them to me and you will care for them?
How many hybrid siblings will there be in Aus this year?
Maybe 1000? 100pairs bred x10sibling per batch would seem a fair figure??
Extrapolate that without increasing numbers and by the first one you adopt dies you will have 25.000 hybrid siblings under your care??
So regardless of your selfless offer I dont think you can manage this by yourself???

Nobody can stop hybrid breeding
At this time nobody can control the hybrid sibling sale/gift problem

Simple question
How are the hybrid breeders going to do it?????


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## champagne (Sep 28, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> Exactly........well said Cement.
> 
> All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future.
> nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
> ...



there is no need to hybridise any reptile all the paint jobs can be achieved from breeding within the sub species or species. it just ignorance and trying to get to the final outcome quick that people crosses breed but this thread is not about that...

It is about what should be done with the sibs that these cross breeders are creating?


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## TrueBlue (Sep 28, 2013)

hulloosenator,-

What a load of rubbish.
As much can be done with pure animals as can be done with mongrel crap. More infact if you know what you are doing.


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## Glenn (Sep 28, 2013)

I'm not sure people are recognising the difference between a morph and a hybrid. I suppose that's because there are so many hybrid morphs. A naturally occurring colour variation in a species does not pollute the gene pool and can be bred in or out (to a degree). The species is still pure, well, really no less pure than any other mating that is not done via natural selection.

Crossing species either for the visual result or to transfer a colour variation to another species is an entirely different matter. I don't agree with it personally as I believe it does permanently pollute the gene pool, but I don't judge others for doing it.

I agree with earleir threads that information should be given so everyone can make an informed choice. One person not doing 'the right thing' then takes that decision out of the hands of every subsequent breeder/keeper further down that animals family tree.

You don't have to like them but don't consider morphs mongrels. They are no less pure than you or I unless you represent the 'wild type' human - I don't actually know what that looks like, but if you've got blonde hair, blue eyes or one of any thousands of other genetically inherited traits from your parents, then you're a morph too.


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## Ramsayi (Sep 28, 2013)

People have it back to front.Sibs should be kept,it's the jags that should be euthed given their predisposition to getting twisty,but then I guess things like that can be overlooked as long as you get a pretty snake to look at.


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## Darlyn (Sep 28, 2013)

So what should be done with the sibs?


Chuckles at your post Rams


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## cement (Sep 29, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> Exactly........well said Cement.
> 
> All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future.
> nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
> ...



And well said Hulloosenator,!!

I couldn't have asked for, or written a better reply myself! You tick all the boxes!

The "thing" of the future? Like when mah rich dahddy bought me a cadilac??Lol!!


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## hulloosenator (Sep 29, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Some people paint their nails because they think they are boring lol I like mine just the way nature made em
> 
> Also please don't include me in your statistics, I am somebody and when you say nobody wants to see the same old snakes you are including me. Speak for yourself.



i am speaking for myself.......maybe you should go paint your nails then , eh ? ...... and i can include whoever i want to ........ i dont recall including you personally , you did...!

- - - Updated - - -



TrueBlue said:


> hulloosenator,-
> 
> What a load of rubbish.
> As much can be done with pure animals as can be done with mongrel crap. More infact if you know what you are doing.



ahhhh......i see . You are obviously one of those people who know everything and everyone who does something different to you doesnt know what they are doing. Seems to be a few on here like you.


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## TrueBlue (Sep 29, 2013)

hulloosenator,-

lol, not at all. I know bugger all compared to most the decent herpers in the hobby.
Hybrids the way of the future is just rubbish, maybe in your SMALL circle. A circle that to most means nothing at all.

ramsayi, so very very true, its the poor jags that need to be delt with not the healthy animals.


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## Wild~Touch (Sep 29, 2013)

Helloosenator Island: That is where to put the poor scrambled sibs and poor neuro jags and any other "beleiver" then they can all live (?) in peace.

Just my opinion 

Cheers
Sandee


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## RedFox (Sep 29, 2013)

hulloosenator said:


> Exactly........well said Cement.
> 
> All you hybrid haters had better get used to it , because they will be the thing of the future.
> *nobody is going to want to see the same old .....same old.... purebred perfect looking BHP* or same old Bearded Dragon just like the one on the side of the road...because they have seen it all before....BORING.....!
> ...



I guess I am nobody according to your statement. IMO there are very few pythons around that could compete with a purebred, perfect looking Pilbara BHP. I wish I could see some of those (in the pilbara of course) by the road but would settle with a captive. 

Just looking at some of our purebred captives they are far from boring. Albino olive, high yellow jungle, rp coastal, platnium mac anyone? As for Bearded dragons have you seen some of Rick Walkers?





hulloosenator said:


> i am speaking for myself.......maybe you should go paint your nails then , eh ? ...... and i can include whoever i want to ........ i dont recall including you personally , you did...



Well by saying no one wants boring purebred animals you did exclude a great deal of the hobby.



TrueBlue said:


> hulloosenator,-
> 
> What a load of rubbish.
> As much can be done with pure animals as can be done with mongrel crap. More infact if you know what you are doing.



I'm sorry to tell you Trublue, but no one wants your boring purebred coastals. Don't worry though I'll take them off your hands and give them a home where they can live out their life in peace without people overlooking them with hate and anguish at how boring they are. hahaha. 

I can trade you a woma so you can breed carpets x womas (Comas lol). Wouldn't that be interesting?


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## TrueBlue (Sep 29, 2013)

Great, thanks heaps, that means i dont have to cull them anymore. lol.


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## PythonLegs (Sep 29, 2013)

There are people who breed reptiles because they like reptiles. 

And there are people who breed reptiles because they want to make something pretty. These people are stupid. That is all.


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## longqi (Sep 30, 2013)

PythonLegs said:


> There are people who breed reptiles because they like reptiles.
> 
> And there are people who breed reptiles because they want to make something pretty. These people are stupid. That is all.



Absolutely incorrect
There is nothing wrong with trying to make a 'pretty' snake
If done through line breeding etc it can take many years and a huge amount of dedication disappointment and joy

Where do you think full striped high yellow jungles etc etc etc came from??

So please dont trivialise the huge and continuing efforts of some of the best breeders on Planet Earth

Their work has made Aussie carpets world famous
That is what threads like this are trying to protect


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## PythonLegs (Sep 30, 2013)

See...just because you say something is incorrect, doesnt make it so. 
Fact, no returns.


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## andynic07 (Sep 30, 2013)

I found this on an overseas Morelia site , it appears that they have the same fights in America with purists and cross breeding.






The caption said a swallow building the future of Morelia. 


It was followed by a lot of comments arguing from both sides of the fence.


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## longqi (Sep 30, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I found this on an overseas Morelia site , it appears that they have the same fights in America with purists and cross breeding.
> 
> The caption said a swallow building the future of Morelia.
> 
> ...



American European and British isles breeders would kill for some of the pure lines coming out in Aus

Most cannot understand why we breed hybrids when our native carpet lines are already nearly as good as their hybrids
To find a pure line anywhere outside Australia is getting harder and harder

Every day on every reptile forum over seas there is a thread or twenty
"What snake is this??? I think Its a xxxxx but my friends think its a yyyyy and the breeders doesnt know the parentage?"

ONLY correct answer in 99% of those cases
"It looks like a zzzz, but exactly what it is is anybodys guess"

Those threads cover virtually every reptile species in captivity and for those reptile owners the problem can never be fixed now

In Australia you still have many pure lines
Your new line bred morphs are breaking into new territory every month
Some Aussie pure lines are any reptile lovers dream

To risk all that by NOT culling siblings is highly irresponsible in my opinion

Some breeders of hybrids use the excuse... "I love reptiles; How can I kill hybrid siblings?"
Answer is simple
You kill them to protect the viability of the Australia reptile industry

Hybrids have their place in this industry
Paint jobs in anything from cars to pets appeal to some people
But hybrid siblings are a whole new ball game


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## andynic07 (Sep 30, 2013)

longqi said:


> American European and British isles breeders would kill for some of the pure lines coming out in Aus
> 
> Most cannot understand why we breed hybrids when our native carpet lines are already nearly as good as their hybrids
> To find a pure line anywhere outside Australia is getting harder and harder
> ...


Very well put, from what I read a lot of the blame for the muddied lines is being placed on Irian Jaya carpets, is this because they are mixed with a lot of animals for the bright yellow colour? I also saw a BHP picture posted and the owner said that it was a Pilbara region BHP, is it possible in the USA to be that sure of locality when it is hard for us to be sure of locality in Australia?


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## longqi (Sep 30, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Very well put, from what I read a lot of the blame for the muddied lines is being placed on Irian Jaya carpets, is this because they are mixed with a lot of animals for the bright yellow colour? I also saw a BHP picture posted and the owner said that it was a Pilbara region BHP, is it possible in the USA to be that sure of locality when it is hard for us to be sure of locality in Australia?



Irian Jayas were mixed into the jag line to improve the yellow and decrease the size
Lot of people loved the jag paint job but didnt want 13ft ones

Now most of the international and Aussie jags have xxx% IJ in them

Where everything gets screwed up is here
breeder makes jagxdiamond
gets some cool jags
sell hybrid siblings as 'pure' diamond or coastal depending on what they look like
Siblings change hands a few times
new breeder buys 'pure' coastal and breeds it

hatchies have coastal/irian jaya/diamond genes

Slightly strange snakes pop out
New thread
"What is my snake??"

Names like Biak, Pilbara, Tomani, Wheatbelt, Palmerston are tossed around all over the place
Impossible in every case to prove anything
So international breeders just use words that sound good to get the best return on investment


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## champagne (Sep 30, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Very well put, from what I read a lot of the blame for the muddied lines is being placed on Irian Jaya carpets, is this because they are mixed with a lot of animals for the bright yellow colour? I also saw a BHP picture posted and the owner said that it was a Pilbara region BHP, is it possible in the USA to be that sure of locality when it is hard for us to be sure of locality in Australia?


 in the USA and Europe they have access to pure stock from zoos this is how a lot of their pure lines come from.


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## Shotta (Sep 30, 2013)

cant they just make the sibs sterile? or is there no such thing as that?


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## andynic07 (Sep 30, 2013)

Nilesh said:


> cant they just make the sibs sterile? or is there no such thing as that?



I am sure it would cost more money than the snake is worth if it is possible.



btsmorphs said:


> in the USA and Europe they have access to pure stock from zoos this is how a lot of their pure lines come from.



How does a private breeder apply for the use of a zoo animal? Also I would think it would be hard to get two of the same locality animals wouldn't it?


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## larks (Sep 30, 2013)

These threads always make me laugh when I can be stuffed reading them. But this thing about all jag breeders be dishonest is just not true, I believe most of us are as honest as we can be. That's right I said us because I breed jags god forbid, guess what I also breed pure lines and I have never in my life put down a healthy snake. But unfortunately not everyone is honest weather they breed hybrids or pure. There was a lot of dishonesty in this hobby before jags came on the scene. At the end of the day I wouldn't purchase a jag from anyone I thought was dishonest and I wouldn't buy pure reptiles from anyone I though was dishonest either.


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## andyh (Sep 30, 2013)

the term "hybrid" seems to be thrown around quite liberally here, incorrectly in most cases.


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## longqi (Sep 30, 2013)

Any Aussie jag must be a hybrid
When any mixed sub species is bred together the progeny must be hybrid
When any mixed full species is bred together the progeny must be hybrid

Larks
Cool that you joined in
I may not agree with breeding reptiles with a known health issue but this thread is not about jags
Its only to do with hybrid siblings and hybrids definitely do not start and finish with jags

Ive never seen a batch of hatchies from a jag line without a couple of ugly duckilings
Although usually fugly they are healthy

Three questions Lark
What do you do with the fugly ones?
How do you label the normal looking siblings?
Do you think hybrid siblings will have any impact on the reptile industry in Australia?


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## slash89 (Oct 1, 2013)

I have got to say that I am simply mortified at the responses to this thread. I can not for the life of me believe how many of you "snake lovers" would have cross breeds euthanized. All of you purists, in my opinion, are making massive assumptions and using them to justify the most extreme form of rectification. I only have pure bred pairs in my collection, but that's not to say that the thought of owning and breeding Jag's has never crossed my mind, and my reasons for this have nothing to do with money. I think that some of the Jag's that people are producing today are nothing short of breath taking. They are beautiful animals, and I can definitely see why people are attracted to them. The only reason I don't own any is because of the way communities like this respond to the very idea of them. From where i sit, I believe most people who breed snakes have a genuine passion for the animals. I'm not completely ignorant, and I do understand that some people are simply in it for the money. You're always going to get a few bad eggs, however, I believe most cross breeders do what they do for the excitement of finding something completely new and amazing, if not just to reproduce some of the stunning examples already out there. There aren't too many opportunities these days to make completely new discoveries in any field. It's all been done before, or so it seems. But to me, that temptation is always there. The "what if's" make the hobby all that more exciting to me. If I were to cross breed, I would never kill any of the "undesirables" that you speak of. I think every snake is beautiful in it's own way, and I think those of you considering such a barbaric act as the only solution are far worse even than those who cross breed purely for profit. You all seem to be such experts, so shouldn't you know the difference anyway? If some dishonest jerk tried to sell you a sib and told you it was pure, surely you'd have enough references and experience to spot the difference? I really don't think you've thought hard enough about alternate solutions if culling all sibs is the conclusion you've landed on here. As long as all of you concerned breeders keep your own blood lines pure, then there will always be pure blooded animals available. If you are seriously that concerned about "mongrels" entering your collecions, then I can only suggest that you buy only from reputable dealers at their prices. If something seems too cheap to be legit, then it probably is. Don't buy it. Simple. I personally would sell my sibs at rock bottom prices to kids and first time owners looking for a cheap way to enter the hobby. I would screen them carefully and ask many questions to lessen the chances of them ending up in the wrong hands. Not every snake owner is interested in breeding, and many of these sib's that you'd have put to death, may become beloved pets if only given the chance. Remember, you're the ones who are labeling them as undesirable. As a kid, I would have been happy to own even the ugliest snake. better than no snake at all. From what i've seen, most sibs aren't as attractive as their pure bred cousins, so I really can't see too many people wanting to waste a breeding season by crossing them with a pure bred partner just so they could pawn of their "fake-pure" offspring. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I understand that it may be hard to predict the temperament of a sib, but i'm sure that if you sold them for a low enough price and gave as much advice on each of the parent species as you could, then people would be happy to learn as the snake grows. No 2 snakes in my experience have been the same anyway in regards to behaviour. Perhaps stricter registration of cross bred animals would be another alternative to prevent the market being flooded by sibs in disguise? I realise we're all entitled to our opinions, and on that note, please realise that I too am entitled to mine. I just thought i'd express how disheartened I was to read this thread.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

larks,-
Fair call.
One thing that you may not realise though is that even though you still keep and breed pure animals alot of people will not buy these animals from you any more becuse of the jags you keep and breed. This is not here-say as ive had a number of people tell me this about yourself and other well known breeders that keep both. Double edged sword.


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

slash89 said:


> I have got to say that I am simply mortified at the responses to this thread. I can not for the life of me believe how many of you "snake lovers" would have cross breeds euthanized. All of you purists, in my opinion, are making massive assumptions and using them to justify the most extreme form of rectification. I only have pure bred pairs in my collection, but that's not to say that the thought of owning and breeding Jag's has never crossed my mind, and my reasons for this have nothing to do with money. I think that some of the Jag's that people are producing today are nothing short of breath taking. They are beautiful animals, and I can definitely see why people are attracted to them. The only reason I don't own any is because of the way communities like this respond to the very idea of them. From where i sit, I believe most people who breed snakes have a genuine passion for the animals. I'm not completely ignorant, and I do understand that some people are simply in it for the money. You're always going to get a few bad eggs, however, I believe most cross breeders do what they do for the excitement of finding something completely new and amazing, if not just to reproduce some of the stunning examples already out there. There aren't too many opportunities these days to make completely new discoveries in any field. It's all been done before, or so it seems. But to me, that temptation is always there. The "what if's" make the hobby all that more exciting to me. If I were to cross breed, I would never kill any of the "undesirables" that you speak of. I think every snake is beautiful in it's own way, and I think those of you considering such a barbaric act as the only solution are far worse even than those who cross breed purely for profit. You all seem to be such experts, so shouldn't you know the difference anyway? If some dishonest jerk tried to sell you a sib and told you it was pure, surely you'd have enough references and experience to spot the difference? I really don't think you've thought hard enough about alternate solutions if culling all sibs is the conclusion you've landed on here. As long as all of you concerned breeders keep your own blood lines pure, then there will always be pure blooded animals available. If you are seriously that concerned about "mongrels" entering your collecions, then I can only suggest that you buy only from reputable dealers at their prices. If something seems too cheap to be legit, then it probably is. Don't buy it. Simple. I personally would sell my sibs at rock bottom prices to kids and first time owners looking for a cheap way to enter the hobby. I would screen them carefully and ask many questions to lessen the chances of them ending up in the wrong hands. Not every snake owner is interested in breeding, and many of these sib's that you'd have put to death, may become beloved pets if only given the chance. Remember, you're the ones who are labeling them as undesirable. As a kid, I would have been happy to own even the ugliest snake. better than no snake at all. From what i've seen, most sibs aren't as attractive as their pure bred cousins, so I really can't see too many people wanting to waste a breeding season by crossing them with a pure bred partner just so they could pawn of their "fake-pure" offspring. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I understand that it may be hard to predict the temperament of a sib, but i'm sure that if you sold them for a low enough price and gave as much advice on each of the parent species as you could, then people would be happy to learn as the snake grows. No 2 snakes in my experience have been the same anyway in regards to behaviour. Perhaps stricter registration of cross bred animals would be another alternative to prevent the market being flooded by sibs in disguise? I realise we're all entitled to our opinions, and on that note, please realise that I too am entitled to mine. I just thought i'd express how disheartened I was to read this thread.



I think how disheartened you are comes from the clear lack of knowledge and just for your information, sib can look exactly like a pure sub species.

- - - Updated - - -



TrueBlue said:


> larks,-
> Fair call.
> One thing that you may not realise though is that even though you still keep and breed pure animals alot of people will not buy these animals from you any more becuse of the jags you keep and breed. This is not here-say as ive had a number of people tell me this about yourself and other well known breeders that keep both. Double edged sword.


 I don't think Wayne has a problem selling any of his animals, tho I'm sure he just curled up in the corner and started to cry after hearing that you and some of your friends now wont be buying from him lol. Im sure some of your mates will buy some pure axantic coastals off him to cross with your hypos to make those crazy looking ghosts, they will keep you happy and tell you otherwise tho....


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## cement (Oct 1, 2013)

larks said:


> These threads always make me laugh when I can be stuffed reading them. But this thing about all jag breeders be dishonest is just not true, I believe most of us are as honest as we can be. That's right I said us because I breed jags god forbid, guess what I also breed pure lines and I have never in my life put down a healthy snake. But unfortunately not everyone is honest weather they breed hybrids or pure. There was a lot of dishonesty in this hobby before jags came on the scene. At the end of the day I wouldn't purchase a jag from anyone I thought was dishonest and I wouldn't buy pure reptiles from anyone I though was dishonest either.



Threads not about jag breeders or anybody being honest.
Its a discussion on the impacts of breeding hybrids to the reptile keeping hobby. 



slash89 said:


> I have got to say that I am simply mortified at the responses to this thread. I can not for the life of me believe how many of you "snake lovers" would have cross breeds euthanized. All of you purists, in my opinion, are making massive assumptions and using them to justify the most extreme form of rectification. I only have pure bred pairs in my collection, but that's not to say that the thought of owning and breeding Jag's has never crossed my mind, and my reasons for this have nothing to do with money. I think that some of the Jag's that people are producing today are nothing short of breath taking. They are beautiful animals, and I can definitely see why people are attracted to them. The only reason I don't own any is because of the way communities like this respond to the very idea of them. From where i sit, I believe most people who breed snakes have a genuine passion for the animals. I'm not completely ignorant, and I do understand that some people are simply in it for the money. You're always going to get a few bad eggs, however, I believe most cross breeders do what they do for the excitement of finding something completely new and amazing, if not just to reproduce some of the stunning examples already out there. There aren't too many opportunities these days to make completely new discoveries in any field. It's all been done before, or so it seems. But to me, that temptation is always there. The "what if's" make the hobby all that more exciting to me. If I were to cross breed, I would never kill any of the "undesirables" that you speak of. I think every snake is beautiful in it's own way, and I think those of you considering such a barbaric act as the only solution are far worse even than those who cross breed purely for profit. You all seem to be such experts, so shouldn't you know the difference anyway? If some dishonest jerk tried to sell you a sib and told you it was pure, surely you'd have enough references and experience to spot the difference? I really don't think you've thought hard enough about alternate solutions if culling all sibs is the conclusion you've landed on here. As long as all of you concerned breeders keep your own blood lines pure, then there will always be pure blooded animals available. If you are seriously that concerned about "mongrels" entering your collecions, then I can only suggest that you buy only from reputable dealers at their prices. If something seems too cheap to be legit, then it probably is. Don't buy it. Simple. I personally would sell my sibs at rock bottom prices to kids and first time owners looking for a cheap way to enter the hobby. I would screen them carefully and ask many questions to lessen the chances of them ending up in the wrong hands. Not every snake owner is interested in breeding, and many of these sib's that you'd have put to death, may become beloved pets if only given the chance. Remember, you're the ones who are labeling them as undesirable. As a kid, I would have been happy to own even the ugliest snake. better than no snake at all. From what i've seen, most sibs aren't as attractive as their pure bred cousins, so I really can't see too many people wanting to waste a breeding season by crossing them with a pure bred partner just so they could pawn of their "fake-pure" offspring. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I understand that it may be hard to predict the temperament of a sib, but i'm sure that if you sold them for a low enough price and gave as much advice on each of the parent species as you could, then people would be happy to learn as the snake grows. No 2 snakes in my experience have been the same anyway in regards to behaviour. Perhaps stricter registration of cross bred animals would be another alternative to prevent the market being flooded by sibs in disguise? I realise we're all entitled to our opinions, and on that note, please realise that I too am entitled to mine. I just thought i'd express how disheartened I was to read this thread.



Your not getting it, read post number 54.
Purists breed pure lines for legitimate and valid reasons. One of the reasons is so they can avoid the practice of having to find buyers for mongrels. I have never heard of culling of pure line snake hatchlings, except for the euthansing of deformed individuals. Maybe I live a sheltered life though.

Killing off hatchlings from a clutch when breeding hybrids is practised. The breeder knows they will hopefully get one or two of the desired morph and the rest is collateral damage. Pretty well the same as what happens in nature with a clutch, maybe this is the justification.

This is an open discussion on the effects, of these breeders, on the hobby as a whole when they DONT kill the unwanted hatchies. There has been two Pro jag comments.... one was immature and ridiculous and the other saw it as a personal attack on his integrity.

I do have a question. Why do the people who breed jag or RPM that have flashy big websites only advertise the jags or the pure? I'll admit I don't consistently check websites, but in the past I have never seen one that advertises the siblings. So where are they? Its hard enough to move snakes on with advertising, let alone the ordinary lookers with NO advertising. Considering that one jag male over 5 large female carpets, might do two or three clutches.....40-60 hatchies conservativily. That leaves 20-30 healthy but mix blood animals.....Fair bit of expense keeping them going while you try and find homes for them....... And how many breeders are there doing this? Thats a lot of snakes......

Maybe culling is good for the hobby but its also immoral.

Personally I would rather not have to make the decision, so its pretty easy for me to make a choice.


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## andynic07 (Oct 1, 2013)

slash89 said:


> I have got to say that I am simply mortified at the responses to this thread. I can not for the life of me believe how many of you "snake lovers" would have cross breeds euthanized. All of you purists, in my opinion, are making massive assumptions and using them to justify the most extreme form of rectification. I only have pure bred pairs in my collection, but that's not to say that the thought of owning and breeding Jag's has never crossed my mind, and my reasons for this have nothing to do with money. I think that some of the Jag's that people are producing today are nothing short of breath taking. They are beautiful animals, and I can definitely see why people are attracted to them. The only reason I don't own any is because of the way communities like this respond to the very idea of them. From where i sit, I believe most people who breed snakes have a genuine passion for the animals. I'm not completely ignorant, and I do understand that some people are simply in it for the money. You're always going to get a few bad eggs, however, I believe most cross breeders do what they do for the excitement of finding something completely new and amazing, if not just to reproduce some of the stunning examples already out there. There aren't too many opportunities these days to make completely new discoveries in any field. It's all been done before, or so it seems. But to me, that temptation is always there. The "what if's" make the hobby all that more exciting to me. If I were to cross breed, I would never kill any of the "undesirables" that you speak of. I think every snake is beautiful in it's own way, and I think those of you considering such a barbaric act as the only solution are far worse even than those who cross breed purely for profit. You all seem to be such experts, so shouldn't you know the difference anyway? If some dishonest jerk tried to sell you a sib and told you it was pure, surely you'd have enough references and experience to spot the difference? I really don't think you've thought hard enough about alternate solutions if culling all sibs is the conclusion you've landed on here. As long as all of you concerned breeders keep your own blood lines pure, then there will always be pure blooded animals available. If you are seriously that concerned about "mongrels" entering your collecions, then I can only suggest that you buy only from reputable dealers at their prices. If something seems too cheap to be legit, then it probably is. Don't buy it. Simple. I personally would sell my sibs at rock bottom prices to kids and first time owners looking for a cheap way to enter the hobby. I would screen them carefully and ask many questions to lessen the chances of them ending up in the wrong hands. Not every snake owner is interested in breeding, and many of these sib's that you'd have put to death, may become beloved pets if only given the chance. Remember, you're the ones who are labeling them as undesirable. As a kid, I would have been happy to own even the ugliest snake. better than no snake at all. From what i've seen, most sibs aren't as attractive as their pure bred cousins, so I really can't see too many people wanting to waste a breeding season by crossing them with a pure bred partner just so they could pawn of their "fake-pure" offspring. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I understand that it may be hard to predict the temperament of a sib, but i'm sure that if you sold them for a low enough price and gave as much advice on each of the parent species as you could, then people would be happy to learn as the snake grows. No 2 snakes in my experience have been the same anyway in regards to behaviour. Perhaps stricter registration of cross bred animals would be another alternative to prevent the market being flooded by sibs in disguise? I realise we're all entitled to our opinions, and on that note, please realise that I too am entitled to mine. I just thought i'd express how disheartened I was to read this thread.


If the sibs were euthanised and then used for something would that make you feel better about it? The reason that I ask is because I would hate to see senseless killing of any animal but I am quite ok with animals being killed for food.


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

cement said:


> Threads not about jag breeders or anybody being honest.
> Its a discussion on the impacts of breeding hybrids to the reptile keeping hobby.
> 
> 
> ...



they don't have to kill sib hatchlings but the should not release any, so maybe jag breeders should be moving towards breeding jag to jag getting less sibs and holding on to these sibs for their whole life. yes I know it is not very practical but it would be the right thing to do if you didn't want to cull any or pay to have them sterilized before selling. I think most jag breeders don't advertise sibs because most give them away with the jags to make pairs.

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andynic07 said:


> .
> How does a private breeder apply for the use of a zoo animal? Also I would think it would be hard to get two of the same locality animals wouldn't it?



overseas some zoos are happy to sell to some breeders, this is how they now have rsp over there. Also there is a large number of smuggled animals traded, as much as the government like to play it down.

In Australia it is a different story with the zoos but not illegal and does happen.


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## andynic07 (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> they don't have to kill sib hatchlings but the should not release any, so maybe jag breeders should be moving towards breeding jag to jag getting less sibs and holding on to these sibs for their whole life. yes I know it is not very practical but it would be the right thing to do if you didn't want to cull any or pay to have them sterilized before selling. I think most jag breeders don't advertise sibs because most give them away with the jags to make pairs.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



That is interesting, I thought zoos only bred animals for conservation reasons and not to sell to the public. The fact about smuggled animals was what made me think the heritage waters would be muddied.


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## larks (Oct 1, 2013)

longqi said:


> Any Aussie jag must be a hybrid
> When any mixed sub species is bred together the progeny must be hybrid
> When any mixed full species is bred together the progeny must be hybrid
> 
> ...



First off I have not joined this thread to take part in a discussion with you guy. However I will answer your questions longqi.

I am yet to see any fugly sibs, but then again I love all snakes and don't think I've ever seen a fugly one.
I lable my sibs as jag sibs. You guys would see that as trying to get more money for them. I see it as making it clear that they came from jags and there purity is unknown.
Yes I do think sibs will have an impact on the hobby. I believe it could have been a small impact. However with all these threads with people who clearly don't know what they are talking about bashing the people who like theses sort of animals only encourages people to be dishonest about there animal. Lets face it if people are going to cop a heap of abuse for selling there coastal jungle as a cross and it looks more like a jungle why wouldn't they just put it up as a jungle and avoid the abuse. You guys think you are fighting the good fight but infact you are just making it harder for people to keep it honest.



TrueBlue said:


> larks,-
> Fair call.
> One thing that you may not realise though is that even though you still keep and breed pure animals alot of people will not buy these animals from you any more becuse of the jags you keep and breed. This is not here-say as ive had a number of people tell me this about yourself and other well known breeders that keep both. Double edged sword.



I really don't have any trouble selling any of my snakes pure or not TrueBlue. I am also picky about who I sell to.

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cement said:


> Threads not about jag breeders or anybody being honest.
> Its a discussion on the impacts of breeding hybrids to the reptile keeping hobby.



Cemenent you may want to re-read the thread tittle it's about sibs and sibs come from jags and any thread that has sibs that come from jags turns into a jag breeder bashing on this site.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorhps,-
lol, Once again you missed the point that I was trying to say completely.
Most of the people I have heard this from I hardly know, they have just brought it up in conversation when ringing me to enquire about getting snakes from me. So very wide spread indeed.
It was also not ment to be said in a bad way, just poniting out that by keeping and breeding jags a large portion of the market for their pure animals instantly dissapears.
I also dont know why you brought my name into the mix as i have never got an animal off larks and never will as i have no need or desire to.
I breed quite a few animals each year and donot have to advertise any of them these days, even the common stuff, as they all go by word of mouth etc., and that suites fine thank you very much.


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 1, 2013)

I can vouch for larks being an upfront person. I bought a beautiful pure Darwin off larks and he is very honest and a great person to deal with. He had sibs advertised as sibs at the same time so I have no reason to think my girl is a cross/sibling as if that was the case, why advertise sibs at all.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

larks,-
We both posted at the same time. lol.
I was not directing that comment to just you but to alot of people that keep and breed both, thats just the way the tide has turned lately.
I have always had alot of respect for you and the aniamls you have bred in the past.
But unfortunately since you have started keeping and breeding jags most of this respect has gone, and this is by far not just my opionion. Just trying to point out the damage that jags has done to the hobby in more ways than one. Not trying to have a go at you at all if you can only understand what im trying to say


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> btsmorhps,-
> lol, Once again you missed the point that I was trying to say completely.
> Most of the people I have heard this from I hardly know, they have just brought it up in conversation when ringing me to enquire about getting snakes from me. So very wide spread indeed.



so people call you wanting to get some high quality pure animals off you, knowing you don't want your pure stuff crossed into jags ect so they start bagging out known jag breeders to cover their real reason for wanting your stock.... but yeah you have your finger on the pulse and know what's going on lol

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larks said:


> I lable my sibs as jag sibs. You guys would see that as trying to get more money for them. I see it as making it clear that they came from jags and there purity is unknown.



do you put jag sib on the paper work? if not what do you put on the paper work?


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## slash89 (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorphs, you are a very unpleasant person. Calling people names now? "Are you that stupid". Doesn't make your point any more valid, slamming those who disagree and assuming their intelligence is inferior to your own. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone stupid because this is an open ended debate. No one side is completely correct, we're all just discussing our opinions. You seem to believe that all hybrid breeders are dishonest and that they're destroying the industry. That's nice. Someone made a good point earlier when they said it's the bashers like you who make people lean towards lying about whether a sib is pure or not. I would certainly not lie about that myself, but with responses like yours, I can see why a lot of people would be intimidated about the idea of advertising a clutch of sibs (or any other hybrid) for sale. Shut me down again, insult me. Tell me you have no respect for me, or that I "don't get it". Like I stated, this was my opinion and mine only. I honestly live by a different set of morals and principals to you. I can see that sibs will have an impact on the industry, that's inevitable, I just don't feel it will be as severe as you're making it out to be. Not every Jag breeder lies. Not every pure line breeder tells the truth. You'd have thousands of healthy snakes killed at birth out of nothing more than paranoia, i can not get behind that. As stated earlier, I do not cross breed myself, and probably never will. Even if the culled sibs were used for something, I would still not be ok with killing babies. So in summary, this is me agreeing to disagree. Don't just write me off as not understanding. I have taken your points on board, and I'm not saying you haven't made some good ones, I just can't bring myself to agree with you. Repeating yourself with growing hostility will do nothing to change anyones mind here.


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## andynic07 (Oct 1, 2013)

slash89 said:


> btsmorphs, you are a very unpleasant person. Calling people names now? "Are you that stupid". Doesn't make your point any more valid, slamming those who disagree and assuming their intelligence is inferior to your own. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone stupid because this is an open ended debate. No one side is completely correct, we're all just discussing our opinions. You seem to believe that all hybrid breeders are dishonest and that they're destroying the industry. That's nice. Someone made a good point earlier when they said it's the bashers like you who make people lean towards lying about whether a sib is pure or not. I would certainly not lie about that myself, but with responses like yours, I can see why a lot of people would be intimidated about the idea of advertising a clutch of sibs (or any other hybrid) for sale. Shut me down again, insult me. Tell me you have no respect for me, or that I "don't get it". Like I stated, this was my opinion and mine only. I honestly live by a different set of morals and principals to you. I can see that sibs will have an impact on the industry, that's inevitable, I just don't feel it will be as severe as you're making it out to be. Not every Jag breeder lies. Not every pure line breeder tells the truth. You'd have thousands of healthy snakes killed at birth out of nothing more than paranoia, i can not get behind that. As stated earlier, I do not cross breed myself, and probably never will. Even if the culled sibs were used for something, I would still not be ok with killing babies. So in summary, this is me agreeing to disagree. Don't just write me off as not understanding. I have taken your points on board, and I'm not saying you haven't made some good ones, I just can't bring myself to agree with you. Repeating yourself with growing hostility will do nothing to change anyones mind here.


Do you agree with killing baby pink mice or rats?


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

slash89 said:


> btsmorphs, you are a very unpleasant person. Calling people names now? "Are you that stupid". Doesn't make your point any more valid, slamming those who disagree and assuming their intelligence is inferior to your own. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone stupid because this is an open ended debate. No one side is completely correct, we're all just discussing our opinions. You seem to believe that all hybrid breeders are dishonest and that they're destroying the industry. That's nice. Someone made a good point earlier when they said it's the bashers like you who make people lean towards lying about whether a sib is pure or not. I would certainly not lie about that myself, but with responses like yours, I can see why a lot of people would be intimidated about the idea of advertising a clutch of sibs (or any other hybrid) for sale. Shut me down again, insult me. Tell me you have no respect for me, or that I "don't get it". Like I stated, this was my opinion and mine only. I honestly live by a different set of morals and principals to you. I can see that sibs will have an impact on the industry, that's inevitable, I just don't feel it will be as severe as you're making it out to be. Not every Jag breeder lies. Not every pure line breeder tells the truth. You'd have thousands of healthy snakes killed at birth out of nothing more than paranoia, i can not get behind that. As stated earlier, I do not cross breed myself, and probably never will. Even if the culled sibs were used for something, I would still not be ok with killing babies. So in summary, this is me agreeing to disagree. Don't just write me off as not understanding. I have taken your points on board, and I'm not saying you haven't made some good ones, I just can't bring myself to agree with you. Repeating yourself with growing hostility will do nothing to change anyones mind here.



I didn't say that hybrid breeders were dishonest, I started this thread to talk about what to do with sibs not how to stop jag/hybrid breeding; you really need to learn how to read as you seem to have missed a lot of what is written in this thread. Yes people breeding hybrids is killing part of the hobby because at some point down the track they can muddie up the water and sold as pure. Sorry for being hostile but ignorance and pretending to have half an idea what you are talking about, when clearly you don't understand and have no experience really ticks me.

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people have the right to breed jags, I am not saying they shouldn't. what I am saying is purist and people who don't want to be involved in the jag part of the hobby have a right to this as well. At present this will not happen as current licensing does not allow jag/hybrid sibs put on license for what they are. so I believe that jag breeders should not affect the part of the hobby I wish to be involved in because of this, so if they want to play with jags they should deal with all the problems that come with them. jag/hybrid breeders releasing cross sibs into the hobby affects what I want to do but that's no problem and I have no right to stop them from effecting me but if I stopped a jag/hybrid breeder from keeping jags it would be a different story.


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## slash89 (Oct 1, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Do you agree with killing baby pink mice or rats?



I see your point mate, but those mice are specifically bred as food. Sibs are a by-product, and whether you find a use for them once they are dead is irrelevant. That's not why they came into existance. They are only born so that people can enjoy their pretty jag brothers and sisters. It's a moral conundrum and I can see the hypocrisy in my thinking, and in short, that's why I won't breed hybrids. I don't want to be faced with that decision. I'm in no position to bag out anyone who does though. I just feel there has to be a more humane solution.


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## andynic07 (Oct 1, 2013)

slash89 said:


> I see your point mate, but those mice are specifically bred as food. Sibs are a by-product, and whether you find a use for them once they are dead is irrelevant. That's not why they came into existance. They are only born so that people can enjoy their pretty jag brothers and sisters. It's a moral conundrum and I can see the hypocrisy in my thinking, and in short, that's why I won't breed hybrids. I don't want to be faced with that decision. I'm in no position to bag out anyone who does though. I just feel there has to be a more humane solution.



I am glad that you can see the hypocrisy it your thinking and I really don't think that it would something that anyone could do easily. I am an animal lover and have pet rats as well as food rats and found it very hard at first to kill off my first batch of rats but it is necessary for my snakes to survive and some people see the killing off of siblings as a bad thing for the greater good of the hobby. I am not sure that is a way that I want the hobby to go but think there needs to be something put in place to stop the heritage of a sibling being lost as it is on sold.


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## cement (Oct 1, 2013)

larks said:


> Yes I do think sibs will have an impact on the hobby. I believe it could have been a small impact. However with all these threads with people who clearly don't know what they are talking about bashing the people who like theses sort of animals only encourages people to be dishonest about there animal. Lets face it if people are going to cop a heap of abuse for selling there coastal jungle as a cross and it looks more like a jungle why wouldn't they just put it up as a jungle and avoid the abuse. You guys think you are fighting the good fight but infact you are just making it harder for people to keep it honest.
> 
> - - - Updated - -
> Cemenent you may want to re-read the thread tittle it's about sibs and sibs come from jags and any thread that has sibs that come from jags turns into a jag breeder bashing on this site.



Hey man, no ones bashing anyone. I actually like hearing what people say with some passion in their voice so if your fired up then good!Shows you have passion.
But seriously, keep it real. As far as I can see, EVERYBODY wants the true label on the snake so they have the choice, I haven't heard anyone say they don't. It's recognised as the honest thing to do, so your excuse for it to go underground is BS. Its common knowledge that jags and other hybrids are going to be breed, no one can stop that, or have a control over it, so maybe this thread may help educate newbies with making choices....

SIBS is short for siblings brother, siblings come from any clutch with more then one egg, the word was around before jags reared their wobbly heads. There are hybrid matings that produce clutches that aren't jags Larks...


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## slash89 (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> I didn't say that hybrid breeders were dishonest, I started this thread to talk about what to do with sibs not how to stop jag/hybrid breeding; you really need to learn how to read as you seem to have missed a lot of what is written in this thread. Yes people breeding hybrids is killing part of the hobby because at some point down the track they can muddie up the water and sold as pure. Sorry for being hostile but ignorance and pretending to have half an idea what you are talking about, when clearly you don't understand and have no experience really ticks me.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> They can muddy up the water by being sold as pure? This would only happen if someone along the line is dishonest. I may have been over the top when I accused you of thinking hybrid breeders are dishonest, but the fact remains, someone would have to be dishonest for this concern of yours to become a reality. A hybrid would never make it into a pure line breeders collection unless someone lied to that private breeder and said that the hybrid was pure. I agree with you, this will happen if the current licensing conditions aren't changed so that hybrids can only be registered and sold as hybrids. Through all the dishonesty and apparent "misreading", I think you'll find we're actually agreeing on that. I don't claim to be an expert, but much of what i've talked about is from a moral stand point, something I do have a firm understanding of. Killing all sibs would be the only way to completely ensure that the pure blood lines aren't muddied, but the truth is, it would already be too late for that. I will not see culling as the best option here, purely because of my morals, not because of my understanding or lack there of. I can see and appreciate your concerns, but I think there is always a more peaceful resolution to be found.


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## Rogue5861 (Oct 1, 2013)

slash89 said:


> btsmorphs said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't say that hybrid breeders were dishonest, I started this thread to talk about what to do with sibs not how to stop jag/hybrid breeding; you really need to learn how to read as you seem to have missed a lot of what is written in this thread. Yes people breeding hybrids is killing part of the hobby because at some point down the track they can muddie up the water and sold as pure. Sorry for being hostile but ignorance and pretending to have half an idea what you are talking about, when clearly you don't understand and have no experience really ticks me.
> ...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorhps,-
LOL, You really are a number 99 anrnt you mate, (no offence intened of course lol ).
Where did I say they ring and bag these people?. I said that they wont buy animals off them anymore, thats not bagging them its their choice.
You always seem to miss the point im trying to make.
The people that breed jags are contaminating the hobby in OZ no matter what they do with the sibs, plain and simple. Even honest jag breeders are still contaminating the hobby with cross bred rubbish be it jags or sibs. I really thought that alot of them would of known better, unfortunately I was wrong.
Another point I was trying to make that you missed is not that they cant sell the animals but alot of people just wont buy off them any more so its their reputation that has been harmed. Some of these guys had the best reputations in the country but its now in tatters.
I dont know of any purists that have had their reputation shattered in this way.
Hey my reputation leaves alot to be desired but not for selling medically sick animals or cross bred / hybrid rubbish. But because im an obnoxious tosser that says what most people only think. But i can live with that as I dont give a continental what anyone thinks of me. Hell even I think im an obnoxious tosser. lol.
If I was selling unhealthy animals and cross bred crap I probally would mind.

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btsmorhps,- 
Come on then mate spit it out, whats the real reason they what my animals and who are these people that you so boldly speak of. lol
Ive only sold a small handfull of hypos this season, Ive had dozens of people ring me wanting them but only a very select few got them.


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> btsmorhps,-
> LOL, You really are a number 99 anrnt you mate, (no offence intened of course lol ).
> Where did I say they ring and bag these people?. I said that they wont buy animals off them anymore, thats not bagging them its their choice.
> You always seem to miss the point im trying to make.
> ...



post 92


TrueBlue said:


> Most of the people I have heard this from I hardly know, they have just brought it up in conversation when ringing me to enquire about getting snakes from me.



so you are saying they call you saying '' I hate jags I wont buy any animals of person xyz because they breed jags...'' they only reason they are telling you this is because you are so out spoken against jags and everyone knows that you have told several jag breeders to go stuff themselves when they have tried to get some of your hypo line off you, also publicly said several times that you will not deal with people that have anything to do with jags... surely you can see what they have to gain by getting on your side and putting you off the scent that they will be used to cross with jags.

yes some purist people wont deal with these jag breeders but I highly doubt these people wont want a chance to work with the pure axanthic line to breed it with pure hypos and especially once the albino mcdowelli becomes available.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

Ive had dozens of people ring me wanting them and i havnt told them to get stuffed at all. Ive told them politely, no offence but im sorry no.
Ive only sold a small handfull of them, so if one or two of them have done this, well just proves my point how doddgy and dishonest these sort of people are. just about everyone that i sold them to i know quite well and your really barking up the tree and telling pokies again to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about when in realitiy you dont have a clue.
Ive had good friends ring me laughing and telling me that certain people are ringing them and trying to get them to get some off me to give to them, but its just blown up in their face because as said they just ring me up and have a good laugh about it. Dodgy dodgy jagheads,see this is another reason why the tide is turning and alot of people just dont trust the jagheads. lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Sooner or later they will get them i cant stop that but, but then the pure hypos i produce will be worth 10 times what they would ever get from breeding them with jags. They all ready are. lol.
Ive kept jagheads from getting hold of any for the last couple of generations when they could of made big money with them, but jags are worhtless now so they have missed the boat and im real happy with that. LOL
Ive done what I intended to do so Im happy.


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> LoL, Is your name Wayne kerr btsmorhps.
> 
> Ive had dozens of people ring me wanting them and i havnt told them to get stuffed at all. Ive told them politely, no offence but im sorry no.
> Ive only sold a small handfull of them, so if one or two of them have done this, well just proves my point how doddgy and dishonest these sort of people are. just about everyone that i sold them to i know quite well and your really barking up the tree and telling pokies again to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about when in realitiy you dont have a clue.
> ...



as much as you will deny it one of your hypos will be bred to a jag once it is up to size (which looks to be next season) and its really a trivial thing but the fact you are so against it, is what makes it funny..... a patternless orange pepper will still sell for a lot more money then your hypos do and some high end jags are still selling for over 2k so the boat has only sailed for the low end 1st, 2nd crosses....


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## longqi (Oct 1, 2013)

larks said:


> First off I have not joined this thread to take part in a discussion with you guy. However I will answer your questions longqi.
> 
> I am yet to see any fugly sibs, but then again I love all snakes and don't think I've ever seen a fugly one.
> I lable my sibs as jag sibs. You guys would see that as trying to get more money for them. I see it as making it clear that they came from jags and there purity is unknown.
> ...



Larks
Good to see your comments
I actually see non jag hybrid siblings as a much bigger threat to the industry than jag siblings
IMO its far to late to bother about bashing jag breeders
Far too easy to try to blame them for everything thats happening now; especially when you consider there are a lot more hybrids being bred than just jags

IMO opinion selling them as jag siblings would lessen the value rather than increase it?
Would be interesting to learn why it may increase the sell price?

Apart from telling a buyer that a hybrid sibling is exactly that, have you considered any other ways of avoiding future problems?
You may sell with full disclosure and thats cool
But the paper trail does not permit you put hybrid on it
So for the first buyer its ok because they know its a sibling
But pythons may live 25years and who knows where that snake will end up

I have a feeling your breeding programs involve high end animals??
Ive seen some what I would call fugly design disasters out there, but most of those were just snakes thrown together in the hope of something special with no real planning strategy in place
[my favourite snake just now has one eye, huge attitude, and a face like a sucked in sandshoe]

Paint jobs, NOT just including jags, are here and will never go away


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## Stuart (Oct 1, 2013)

This is obviously a very passionate subject but if the name calling and nastiness continues, this thread will be closed.

Please keep it civil guys and gals...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorhps,-
hahaha, Now i know for sure that you are uninformed, telling pokies or its one of these many hypos out there that are suppoesd to be from my line but is not, as thats impossible, none of this seasons animals will be old enough to be any good.
All the last gen hypos were kept, there are none out there except right here. lol.
Sorry buddy try again.

- - - Updated - - -

Selling jags for over 2k, get real. Anyone who would pay that sort of money for worthless rubbish these days is not right in the head no one would be that stupid. Thats just tall stories mate or a blatant rip off by the breeder to someone that hasnt got a clue. lol.


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## longqi (Oct 1, 2013)

slash89 said:


> btsmorphs;2395010
> They can muddy up the water by being sold as pure? This would only happen if someone along the line is dishonest. I may have been over the top when I accused you of thinking hybrid breeders are dishonest said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## cement (Oct 1, 2013)

The mail I get, and I'll be honest, I don't wander in jag breeder circles, is that there are many pure locality species projects that are just about to come to fruition here. Many of these animals will get the "oh, theres jag blood in there" from the uninformed.
The very worst thing to hear when you have put in years of effort to produce red hot looking animals. The answer is simple, those that don't breed, and have never bred, or had anything to do with jags or hybrid crossing, will come with good recommendation from the trusted and honest breeders. Unfortunatly for some, if you have jag in your collection there will always be doubt.

I'm not putting ****ake on anyone, just reflecting on past, present and future!

AS to this site being pro purist, I beg to differ. I have been banned many times in the past for voicing my opinions on jags, but since a few changes, this site has now come back into balance regarding the jag/hybrid and purist split.


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## RedFox (Oct 1, 2013)

I have being watching this thread for a while and have decided to add my 2c. Keep in mind I am a complete newbie, know very few people who own reptile let alone in 'the industry' and everything I say, whether right or wrong is my own opinion. 

I assume this thread was started around the same time as the bredli x albino Darwin one, where the possibility of not being able to sell/give away all the offspring would have being highly plausable. 

I don't believe that breeders of hybrids should be forced into culling the unwanted hatchies. By enforcing this there is the possibility of people not willing to cull to lie about the heritage of these hatchies, whether jag, zebra or mixes subspecies.

An example of forced euthanising not always have the best effect os if we look at pure bred Dalmatians. It is written into their code of ethics that all deaf puppies must be either kept by the breeder or humanely put down. This has caused quite a few breeders to not register their dogs, or lie about getting them put down, which in turn can create its own problems. 

To be honest I think the impact of hybrids on the hobby has being a bit exaggerated in this thread. The high end hybrids tend to be sold to other milkshake or jag breeders or kept by the original breeders, of they aren't culled. It is more the low end and middle hybrids that could cause a problem. A lot of which are bred by newbies or people who are breeding for the sake of it and haven't really thought about the results. A lot of these would be sold to newbies, who may just want a pet snake. There seem to be a decreasing amount of people who just want pets, but that is for another thread. The rest will either be kept by the original breeder, or culled. 

So to my understanding the problem is when the newbie with the hybrid no longer wants it and gives or sells it to someone else, that person then no longer wants it and sell/gives it away. Somewhere along the line someone has claimed it as 'pure' and eventually someone buys this animal thinking it is pure and breeds it and sells the hatchlings as pure. 

I guess my issue with the above is, those that are 'proper purist' will only buy animals from a few select people where the animals heritage can be traced back to wild caught animals. This ensures that there will.always be pure animals available for those that want them. 

Secondly as these animals are pets with very few having a huge amount of conservational value what does it really matter of someone owns a 90 odd % jungle and sells that hatchlings as pure. 

From most the threads on here that are "what is my snake it was sold as xxx but my friend thinks it is yyy?", these were posted by newbies.

That being said I think there should be a way to put hybrids on license so these animals are now and in the future sold as exactly what they are.

I also think that hybrids, including jag sibs should be able to be sold, after being humanely euthanized as food for other animals so there is no waste. Jags and other hybrids are always going to be bred so why can't they be bred for dual purposes. The pretty animals sold into the pet industry and the unwanted animals sold into the pet food industry.


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## champagne (Oct 1, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> btsmorhps,-
> hahaha, Now i know for sure that you are uninformed, telling pokies or its one of these many hypos out there that are suppoesd to be from my line but is not, as thats impossible, none of this seasons animals will be old enough to be any good.
> All the last gen hypos were kept, there are none out there except right here. lol.
> Sorry buddy try again.
> ...



you do know that Morelia's can breed at 18months don't you? and there are still high quality jags selling for over 2k but of course you know better lol.... I will happily post photos next seasons patternless op jag after they hatch and shed with the paper work showing it came directly from you lol anyway ill leave you guys bash on the jags....


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## slash89 (Oct 1, 2013)

longqi said:


> slash89 said:
> 
> 
> > Ive only quoted what I feel is the part relevant to my response
> ...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorhps,-
The odd male will breed at that age, but long term they get stuffed by pumping that quick anyway, let him stuff his animal, thats his loss.
There is only one person that i had slight doughts about that got any this season and I dought he will any way. His name will be mud if he does and he will certainly regret his dishonesty if he does anyway. Trust me on that one.
The other few people that have them will only breed them with coastals that is confirmed.

A patternless orange pepper, lol, jungle x hypo x jag crossed back to a hypo, lol the mix just keeps getting worse. Now thats funny.
Why would you bother when these hypos can produce way better looking animals that are 100% pure. And dare i say patternless in the close future, now thats a valuable snake.

As said it will happen one day, but these pure animals will be much more outstanding and pure.
Ive kept all the best ones so lets just see what happens eh. lol


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## Serpent_Gazeux (Oct 1, 2013)

I'll only breed my Trueblue hypo back to another Trueblue hypo.

And that's if I breed her at all.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

btsmorphs,-
Just been contacted by the only person I wasnt 100% sure of and sorry, but the animal your talking about can not be from my line. Sounds like you have been led up the garden path again mate. Must be one of these dozens of hypos out there that are supposed to be from my line but are not.
Who is it, if your so adament about this, let us all know. lol.

- - - Updated - - -

lol, Every one that has got hypos off me this season, ( all three ), except close friends have just contacted me to confirm that they will remain pure coastal. Sorry btsmorphs, hate to burst your bubble.


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## NickGeee (Oct 1, 2013)

Wouldn't it just be so much easier to ban the breeding of jags, with stricter licensing laws to avoid the horrible outcome of culling sibs?


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## onimocnhoj (Oct 1, 2013)

I don't think the food option is viable with unwanted/unhealthy jag siblings or any euthanised reptile.

Personally, I would not risk the use of euthanised siblings for reptile fodder. Retroviruses and other nasties can tolerate freezing temperatures for prolonged periods and could prove to be a fatal snack for your python if present.

You would be taking a similar amount of risk bringing new reptiles into a collection without any quarantine measures. 

Your _Aspidites_ species would not appreciate the little ray of 'Sunshine' that could be unwillingly added to their evening meal :shock:

Just remember..

*I* - insufficient 
*B* - breakfast 
*D* - diet

or

*O* - over
*P *- priced
*M* - _Morelia_
*V *- veal.

This is by no means an attack on jag breeders. I am attacking the use of all reptiles as fodder for the quarantine principle. The acronyms are just for fun . 

Waste not want not..


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 1, 2013)

There is no doubt that people who breed jags and breed them with all Morelia do loose creditability to some degree even it is un fairly deserved by the truly honest. For example I would never buy any jungle proclaimed to be pure off anyone who also bred jags, I would always have a suspicion about what I was really buying. I am certain I am not the only one out there thinking this. Its just the way it is unfortunately.


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## Norm (Oct 1, 2013)

Well this thread has been an interesting read and certainly opened my eyes a little more to the potential pitfalls of this hobby. As someone just starting to get into breeding (if successful this will be my second season breeding) and trying to decide which direction to go, it has given me a lot of food for thought.


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## RedFox (Oct 1, 2013)

onimocnhoj said:


> I don't think the food option is viable with unwanted/unhealthy jag siblings or any euthanised reptile.
> 
> Personally, I would not risk the use of euthanised siblings for reptile fodder. Retroviruses and other nasties can tolerate freezing temperatures for prolonged periods and could prove to be a fatal snack for your python if present.
> 
> ...



This made me laugh. While I personally wouldn't feed these to my aspidites, for the above reasons, I see no reason why they couldn't have a place in the pet food industry. Couldn't they be processed as cat and dog food. Can't be any worse than some of the stuff already in those cans? This is more what I meant in my post. 

For snakes or any reptile to be bred for snake food, strict quarantine procedures and hygienic conditions would have to be maintained. Sadly enough I have read enough threads on here and other forums to not trust other people with either.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 1, 2013)

Come on John it is so, your just to dam polite to say so . lol


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## Darlyn (Oct 1, 2013)

RedFox said:


> This made me laugh. While I personally wouldn't feed these to my aspidites, for the above reasons, I see no reason why they couldn't have a place in the pet food industry. Couldn't they be processed as cat and dog food. Can't be any worse than some of the stuff already in those cans? This is more what I meant in my post.
> 
> For snakes or any reptile to be bred for snake food, strict quarantine procedures and hygienic conditions would have to be maintained. Sadly enough I have read enough threads on here and other forums to not trust other people with either.



Wow this is a direction I didn't see coming. Interesting to see responses of members on this point.


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## Newhere (Oct 1, 2013)

I just think its sad the hobby is split and there is so much hating and we have to have a nine page long argument over an issue that has to do with illegaly acquired animals and the illegal crossing of species.

I don't know one single HONEST person that would knowingly purchase or breed one of these animals so I don't get why a jag breeder doesn't think his rep would start going downhill. I wouldn't respect nor trust anyone that breeds or keeps or sells exotics so why should a jag breeder be any different? 

Just my thoughts as a newbie, this issue shouldn't exist and I shouldn't have to try to find a breeder that only breeds pure animals and can prove it to me(costing me more). I just think its very sad and very shady. 

Shame on those involved in crossing species and breeding illegal animals and publicly spitting in our governments face by selling them out in the open and not even trying to hide their criminal activity.


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## longqi (Oct 2, 2013)

Newhere said:


> I just think its sad the hobby is split and there is so much hating and we have to have a nine page long argument over an issue that has to do with illegaly acquired animals and the illegal crossing of species.



I am NOT singling you out here Newhere

That sentence shows the general misunderstanding of this topic
Hybrid sibling does include Jags but most definitely Jags are NOT the only snakes being bred in Australia resulting in hybrid siblings. Any subspecies or mixed species breeding creates hybrid siblings
Example diamond/jungle... diamond/bredli coastal/bredli water/coastal black head/woma etc etc

This is probably the first thread in a long time to have had valuable input from both jag and inter species and subspecies breeders
If it helps make some potential breeders think a bit more before breeding it has been a very valuable thread

People want 'pretty' snakes
"Pretty' snakes can be created through selective breeding of top quality animals as the SRX or Kraus jungles and many others clearly show. But this is a long term plan that takes a lot of dedication to do
Now it seems far too many people are trying to do achieve similar results by tossing any snakes together and hoping for a good result

THAT is the biggest problem
Most of the bigger jag breeders are known and any buyer can buy or not depending on their preferences
But a lot of 'hobby' breeders who try to get a quick fix by mixing and matching are unknown and those hybrids may look like anything at all and legally MUST be given a species or subspecies name on transfer papers

Government departments have taken the easy way out regarding this and have no interest in putting hybrid as a category on legal papers

Redfox and Darlynn
Just as I couldnt cull any siblings I also couldnt breed knowing that some would be cat food


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## Shaggydog (Oct 2, 2013)

I have read these past 9 pages and I have to say that selective breeding by humans in animals is just how new breeds are sadly formed. Take dogs for example, majority of dog breeds today have been created by selective breeding in the last century or so. Look at the white shepherd for example, when the white gene originally presented itself it was seen as a genetic fault. Some people bred to establish the breed and others killed the pups as it was believed that the biitch/ sire didn't have good heritage. 

Animals can't help how humans have made them, so why should they be killed because of what we have done. Personally I would never set out to buy a Jag. However I would set out to buy a Jag Sib, why? Because it's not the animals fault it has been born as it is. We're all reptile lovers here, maybe everyone should just take a step back and appreciate snakes for the creature they are and not the breed.


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## RedFox (Oct 2, 2013)

Shaggydog the key difference between selectively bred dogs and snake is that snakes have shown little if any genetic defects where as dogs in some cases are pretty stuffed up. 

Reptiles and Mammals can't really be compared as they are miles apart. I did use a dog example in one of my posts but that was to highlight hypothetical reactions to being forced to cull animals not a straight comparison. 

As for buying a jag sib and not a jag I am genuinely interested into why that is. That statement suggests you don't support the jag part of the hobby but by saying you would buy a sib is contradictory. 

After a few of the recent posts it seems the breeding of hybrids is becoming very commonplace. I still think the issue is a bit overblown in this thread, but can see how the hybrid part of the hobby could exponentially grow.


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## Stevo2 (Oct 2, 2013)

Shaggydog said:


> I have read these past 9 pages and I have to say that *selective breeding by humans in animals is just how new breeds* are sadly formed. Take dogs for example, majority of dog breeds today have been created by selective breeding in the last century or so. Look at the white shepherd for example, when the white gene originally presented itself it was seen as a genetic fault. Some people bred to establish the breed and others killed the pups as it was believed that the biitch/ sire didn't have good heritage.
> 
> Animals can't help how humans have made them, so why should they be killed because of what we have done. Personally I would never set out to buy a Jag. However I would set out to buy a Jag Sib, why? Because it's not the animals fault it has been born as it is. We're all reptile lovers here, maybe everyone should just take a step back and appreciate snakes for the creature they are and not the breed.



Exactly; selective breeding *within* a species. Snakes are not breeds by the very fact that they are individual and unique *species* and *sub-species*, which are not the same. 

Not the animal's fault - the breeder's fault........ If only the people that hybridise could follow your advice and appreciate each of the individual snake species and sub-species for the creatures they are and not to mess with them...


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 2, 2013)

Redfox

With all respect .. Do you really think neuro in jags is not a genetic defect ?

I am not a jag hater as I like pretty snakes but without the neuro issues

Cheers
Sandee


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## Shaggydog (Oct 2, 2013)

If they were different species then in fact majority of offspring would be infertile.

- - - Updated - - -



RedFox said:


> Shaggydog the key difference between selectively bred dogs and snake is that snakes have shown little if any genetic defects where as dogs in some cases are pretty stuffed up.
> 
> Reptiles and Mammals can't really be compared as they are miles apart. I did use a dog example in one of my posts but that was to highlight hypothetical reactions to being forced to cull animals not a straight comparison.
> 
> ...



Understandably, however the point was more so of people selectively breeding to produce new traits in animals. Dogs were just the first example that come to mind cause I have a white shep.

Because I would take one as a pet, not for breeding. That and I have a sore spot for taking in animals that have issues  

In reality even if I ever got into breeding I would never breed a cross breed animal as in most cases it is harder to find them proper homes.


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## longqi (Oct 2, 2013)

RedFox;2395371
After a few of the recent posts it seems the breeding of hybrids is becoming very commonplace. I still think the issue is a bit overblown in this thread said:


> I agree in some ways
> But think about one breeders comments
> They have 300+ jags
> All bar 8 are breeding
> ...


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## RedFox (Oct 2, 2013)

Wild~Touch said:


> Redfox
> 
> With all respect .. Do you really think neuro in jags is not a genetic defect ?
> 
> ...



No offense taken. 

I should have said selective breeding within pure subspecies/ species. I read shaggydog's post as close relatives breeding, such as in the case of dog breed establishment, as causing genetic defects. 

By breeding hybrids including jags, you are actually increasing the genetic diversity and so isn't as selectively bred. Breeding of hybrids can cause a few husbandry problems as well. 

These snakes could be hybrids of species with very different husbandry requirements, eg diamond and GTP. What temps, humidity, etc would these animals be kept at to ensure the longevity of the animal? I can forsee a few newbies biting off more than they can chew. 

Yes I would count the jag gene being linked with neuro problems as a defect. 

I am biased against jags though and have deliberately avoided mentioning them in my previous posts because I could never support the smuggling of animals no matter how long ago it was. It is for the same reason I don't support foreign GTP.


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## Newhere (Oct 2, 2013)

Longqi I said illegaly acquired animals and the illegal crossing of species. In my state its illegal to cross a species like others are planning to do. 

Sure people want pretty snakes and it takes a lot of hard work and years of effort and dedication but so does anything else thats worth it. The lazy crooks will always find a way to ruin it for the good guys and I think its hilarious that these jags have neuro problems and it just shows that crime doesn't pay. Maybe these people crossing species will make pretty snakes too but lets just hope they don't end up with pretty mutants like the jags are.

The sibs shouldn't exist because people shouldn't break the laws we have in place, end of story.


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## longqi (Oct 2, 2013)

Shaggydog said:


> If they were different species then in fact majority of offspring would be infertile.



That is proving to be less true every month in regard to reptiles
First generation are often difficult to breed as with bateaters and cateaters
But burmballs etc are proving to be relatively easy to breed
Carpondros definitely can reproduce put most are very ordinary as adults


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## Shaggydog (Oct 2, 2013)

longqi said:


> That is proving to be less true every month in regard to reptiles
> First generation are often difficult to breed as with bateaters and cateaters
> But burmballs etc are proving to be relatively easy to breed
> Carpondros definitely can reproduce put most are very ordinary as adults



Well you learn something new everyday  
I find that extremely interesting as in all my learning it was always said there was little chance of offspring, guess I need to read further into reptile genetics and breeding!
Thanks longqi!!


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## Lawra (Oct 2, 2013)

Newhere said:


> The sibs shouldn't exist because people shouldn't break the laws we have in place, end of story.



That exactly sums up my view on the subject.

Euthanise them all, protect our native species, heavily fine everyone who has them. If I can't keep a ball x woma abomination then why should anyone get to have jag anything?


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## RedFox (Oct 2, 2013)

At the moment, to my understanding IJ and our M.s. can't be distinguished. Meaning their is a grey area and it can not be conclusively proven that a jag other isnt native. Conclusively being the operative word. 

The same can be said for M.s subspecies hybrid where genetic test can't yet distinguish between them. 

Also the resources to check that no one has hybrid animals just aren't there. As there are no legal ways to put hybrids on paper properly how can our licensing departments distinguish for example three different people have Morelia spilota spilota one has a pure animal, one has a hybrid, and one has an intergrade. Everyone who owns a python would have to be checked on. And then there are the people who don't have licenses. 

Anyone correct me if I am wrong.


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## champagne (Oct 2, 2013)

RedFox said:


> At the moment, to my understanding IJ and our M.s. can't be distinguished. Meaning their is a grey area and it can not be conclusively proven that a jag other isnt native. Conclusively being the operative word.
> 
> The same can be said for M.s subspecies hybrid where genetic test can't yet distinguish between them.
> 
> ...



someone will correct you don't worry lol. my question is even if they do find a way to prove pure subs at what point of crossing back will they not be able to tell 3rd, 4th generation? the dept is under funded and will not bother checking sub crosses only hybrid crosses and even then I doubt many will be checked, mostly just empty threats....


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## The_Geeza (Oct 2, 2013)

Lawra said:


> That exactly sums up my view on the subject.
> 
> Euthanise them all, protect our native species, heavily fine everyone who has them. If I can't keep a ball x woma abomination then why should anyone get to have jag anything?


Think you missing the debate and have not thought your statement through properly :shock:


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## Lawra (Oct 2, 2013)

MidsReps said:


> Think you missing the debate and have not thought your statement properly :shock:



I have been following the whole thread but had nothing to offer on the subject. My apologies if my opinion bothers you.


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## Rogue5861 (Oct 2, 2013)

Wild~Touch said:


> Redfox
> 
> With all respect .. Do you really think neuro in jags is not a genetic defect ?
> 
> ...



Wish people would get their fact straight before posting. Pretty sure its only around 5% of jags that suffer from neuro so your comment isnt really helpful. 

Also im sure most people have heard of DPS, still the cause of this isnt 100% known with only speculation about heating being the cause. Who is to say that this isnt another disorder not unlike the neuro issues very limited jags display. 

I dont advocate jag breedering or keeping and am actually quite against it, but this thread isnt about our problems with jags it is about "hybrid sibs" not just "jag sibs".


Rick


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## champagne (Oct 2, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> Wish people would get their fact straight before posting. Pretty sure its only around 5% of jags that suffer from neuro so your comment isnt really helpful.
> Rick



lol you comment about people getting their fact right but have no idea what you are posting either.... In what I have seen around 5% are culled because they are to badly effected by neuro problems but all jags have neuro problems most only show little signs when excited, stressed ect. while others that show no sign actually do have neuro problems but it is so little that the owner doesn't notice it. it is genetic and cant be bred out.


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## The_Geeza (Oct 2, 2013)

Lawra said:


> I have been following the whole thread but had nothing to offer on the subject. My apologies if my opinion bothers you.


Laura yes and I appreciate that you have an opinion on this thread... It's good that everyone says there piece.... I and I'm sure others would find the way you wrote it was aggressive / sarcastic and you could have wrote it slightly different.... I'm even getting to a point in this thread where I feel I might have to say my 2 cents worth but finding the time would be hard lol

- - - Updated - - -



btsmorphs said:


> lol you comment about people getting their fact right but have no idea what you are posting either.... In what I have seen around 5% are culled because they are to badly effected by neuro problems but all jags have neuro problems most only show little signs when excited, stressed ect. while others that show no sign actually do have neuro problems but it is so little that the owner doesn't notice it. it is genetic and cant be bred out.


Agree mostly..... People that there first snake is a jag would notice nothing.... People that have collections for yrs then obtain a jag would see the slightest difference.... As you stated " excitement "

- - - Updated - - -


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## deebo (Oct 2, 2013)

Im sure there are plenty of people who label stuff as pure/locale animals when its not.....just because you breed jags doesnt mean you are dodgy.

Dodgy is dodgy, plain and simple.

If you trust the breeder then it really shouldnt matter what they keep, you either take their word for it or you dont.


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## Rogue5861 (Oct 2, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> lol you comment about people getting their fact right but have no idea what you are posting either.... In what I have seen around 5% are culled because they are to badly effected by neuro problems but all jags have neuro problems most only show little signs when excited, stressed ect. while others that show no sign actually do have neuro problems but it is so little that the owner doesn't notice it. it is genetic and cant be bred out.



Post should of read around 5% actually have major issues and most dont seem to be affected in anyway. As far as i am aware there is still not any documented papers that state that all jags have or possess a neuro disorder so for anyone to say otherwise it is just comes down to another person trying to bash on breeders/keepers of them.

More then happy to continue this through PM's so we can keep the thread on topic about "hybrid sibs" and not become another jag bashing thread.


Rick


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## Lawra (Oct 2, 2013)

MidsReps said:


> Laura yes and I appreciate that you have an opinion on this thread... It's good that everyone says there piece.... I and I'm sure others would find the way you wrote it was aggressive / sarcastic and you could have wrote it slightly different.... I'm even getting to a point in this thread where I feel I might have to say my 2 cents worth but finding the time would be hard lol



Ah I understand now. No, it was not said sarcastically and I didn't mean to come across aggressively. I possibly should have sugar coated it but I felt that my meaning would be lost if I did not speak plainly. 

I didn't want to type a novel on the subject as I do not know the ins and outs of breeding, etc however I most definitely feel that in a country such as ours, which has laws prohibiting exotic fauna, this 'jag gene' dividing the hobby shouldn't even be here. 

Yes, I do understand that people are always going to break the rules and quite aware of the corns, boas, etc over here but does that mean we should turn a blind eye or try to sugar coat what we say to the owners and breeders of such illegals? In my opinion, no.

Edit: regarding hybrids, to keep thread on topic, I think it's stupid. Every man and his dog (snake) these days wants to breed. Not once have I ever bought a cat, dog, hermit crab, or otherwise and thought "cool now I can try and make them F something it wouldn't normally and see what kind of babies I will get".


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## andynic07 (Oct 2, 2013)

Lawra said:


> Ah I understand now. No, it was not said sarcastically and I didn't mean to come across aggressively. I possibly should have sugar coated it but I felt that my meaning would be lost if I did not speak plainly.
> 
> I didn't want to type a novel on the subject as I do not know the ins and outs of breeding, etc however I most definitely feel that in a country such as ours, which has laws prohibiting exotic fauna, this 'jag gene' dividing the hobby shouldn't even be here.
> 
> ...


My question about Jags is , if it was first bred in Australia would the jag gene cop as much criticism? I think that a lot of the criticism of jags comes from them being smuggled into the country. I understand that a lot of people are just against the neuro problems but a lot also seem to be against the "smugglers". Sorry off topic again.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 2, 2013)

All jags show neuro symptoms sooner or later. The older they get the worse it seems to get. This is fact, always has been always will be.


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## deebo (Oct 2, 2013)

How many jags do you keep to make that call trueblue?


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## Lawra (Oct 2, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> My question about Jags is , if it was first bred in Australia would the jag gene cop as much criticism? I think that a lot of the criticism of jags comes from them being smuggled into the country. I understand that a lot of people are just against the neuro problems but a lot also seem to be against the "smugglers". Sorry off topic again.



I can't speak for anyone else but that is my only problem with them. If they were native then I would accept their neuro problems and look forward to scientists isolating it. Not to 'cure' them but to find out why it exists in the first place.


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## phatty (Oct 2, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> My question about Jags is , if it was first bred in Australia would the jag gene cop as much criticism? I think that a lot of the criticism of jags comes from them being smuggled into the country. I understand that a lot of people are just against the neuro problems but a lot also seem to be against the "smugglers". Sorry off topic again.



If it was breed In Australia and didn't have neuro and wasn't breed to every other Morelia and left as a pure morph more people would respect it I believe 

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 4


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## TrueBlue (Oct 2, 2013)

None, never will.
But have info from OZ, and overseas keepers that have been keeping them for years and all confirm this 100%.
Alot of them have stopped keeping them because of the long term neuro issues.


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## Rogue5861 (Oct 2, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> None, never will.
> But have info from OZ, and overseas keepers that have been keeping them for years and all confirm this 100%.
> Alot of them have stopped keeping them because of the long term neuro issues.



That is just hearsay mate and you know it, word of mouth and not a 100% fact. I have a high respect for you and the animals you keep but i wouldnt of thought you to be someone that spreads propaganda.

Show us the research papers that prove this and maybe people will actually start to recognise this as an epidemic and not just jag bashing.

As i have stated i dont own or wish to own an jags or hybrid, but we all need to stick to the facts.


Rick


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## TrueBlue (Oct 2, 2013)

Its been said by too many people too many times, not just by the people that im refering to, for it not to be true.

Belive what you want I really dont care. Means nothing to me.


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## longqi (Oct 2, 2013)

Many overseas jag breeders have bred them years and will continue to do so
Others have stopped 

My only concern with jags is that I could never consider breeding any animal with incurable and unavoidable neuro problems


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## Newhere (Oct 2, 2013)

Andy if it was bred in Australia it would still be a species cross and still be illegal. 

Just because the government can't prove it that doesn't make it any less illegal. I'm a newbie and I've been on this site like two months and I already know its illegal and so does everyone that keeps them and breeds them. Even the mods on this site know its against the law hence the editing of my previous post.


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## longqi (Oct 3, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Andy if it was bred in Australia it would still be a species cross and still be illegal.



All evidence suggests the first jags were from Brisbane Coastal carpet pythons
If that is correct they would not be illegal because they were not a sub species or species cross

Evidence
There were big snakes matching any pure Brisbane for size
[that alone supports the next part]
Statements by Jan Engels who produced the first jags
[although there has always been some doubt over the exact pairing]

It was only a short time before Iryan Jaya carpets were introduced by the German Dutch and American breeders
IJs are much smaller and no jags of Brisbane coastal carpet size seem to be produced any more anywhere
So while the Aussie jag lines definitely contain mixed genes now, the original jags probably did not


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## Newhere (Oct 3, 2013)

Ok so if we believe this guy and they were from coastals then wouldn't that be a like a rp or hypo in some way? And did the original jags have neuro problems or is it from the species cross that happened later? 

I wouldn't care if they were bred from coastals in Australia and had no neuro issues but the fact still remains they are illegal and our government has trusted us to keep native wildlife and set out rules and regulations to protect those animals and our ecosystems, just because some crooks found a loophole in the system we all shouldn't have to pay for it and deal with the issues they cause. Like what to do with sibs.

I'm not just against jags I also think the same of anyone that crosses species and anyone that keeps exotics, they are all the same things - criminals.


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## longqi (Oct 3, 2013)

If we believe Jan Engels they just turned up in a batch of eggs
So they are not a hypo or a rp as we know it
They have a gene that causes a colour morph but also has an incurable hereditary problem

I never used to believe it but am now pretty sure that even the original jags had neuro
Two American buyers of the original jag line confirmed this
They are both adamant that neuro was there before the IJ was added to the mix


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## andynic07 (Oct 3, 2013)

longqi said:


> If we believe Jan Engels they just turned up in a batch of eggs
> So they are not a hypo or a rp as we know it
> They have a gene that causes a colour morph but also has an incurable hereditary problem
> 
> ...


Is it the defective gene that causes the colour morph or is that only responsible for the neuro issues? Could this be attributed to excessive line breeding?


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## ShaunMorelia (Oct 3, 2013)

Having kept a jag for close to 4 years now, mine has shown no neurological issue. That isn't to say that it will eventually show it.
I understood what the genetic defect is, meant, how it is displayed and the different levels of effect when I purchased it.

If the genetic neurological defect was in fact due to being excessively line bred, then it would have went away years ago.
My reasoning behind this statement is, because the mutation is a co-dominant trait, most people are breeding them to an unrelated wildtype as you will get the same amount of offspring displaying the Jag trait as you would if you bred 2 jags together.

In Queensland, the laws are quite grey when it comes to cross breeding. They state that the cross breeding between species is illegal (eg _Morelia spilota_ x _Morelia viridis_ or _Morelia spilota_ x _Liasis olivaceus_).
But seeing as though Coastals (_Morelia spilota mcdowelli_) and Jungles (_Morelia spilota cheynei_) are the same species, they can technically be cross bred legally (according to the QLD rules as they are sub-species).
For NSW, Office of Environment and Heritage (OEH) has brought in new species codes for the cross bred sub-species including one for _Morelia spilota unknown.
_Hopefully soon, a lot of other states will follow this step and implement the crossed sub-species then there will be far less for those who keep and breed pure sub-species (including myself) to worry about.

As with the siblings to cross bred sub-species, whether it be from a morph or the whole clutch from the combination of 2 wildtype sub-species (which has been done for much longer than since jags were here), they should be represented as such and we all know that once they are passed on, it's up to the honesty of the new owner to label them as such if they breed or on-sell them.

I think there would be less problems when it comes to labelling the animals for what they are if the authorities took just this one (and only one) leaf out of OEH's book and created new species codes for the cross bred sub-species. This would remove so much uncertainty when purchasing and selling these animals. Also if those who have strong views on the crossing of sub-species didn't give those who do happen to sell their cross species such a hard time (you can read back and see that there is quite a lot of down talking and belittling towards those who have cross bred sub-species), they would be much less inclined to label say a Jungle x Diamond as a pure Jungle because it looks more like a Jungle, in fear of the potential abuse they could receive.

Those are my thoughts.
You're Welcome.

Shaun.


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## thomasssss (Oct 3, 2013)

longqi said:


> slash89 said:
> 
> 
> > Ive only quoted what I feel is the part relevant to my response
> ...


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## RedFox (Oct 3, 2013)

Thomasss NSW does not equal the rest of the country. If a NSW hybrid is on paperwork as a hybrid it is then sold interstate (not exactly uncommon) and this other state doesn't have the option of hybrids the python would be put on as pure. This is where the confusion could happen. 

I'm Vic


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## thomasssss (Oct 3, 2013)

RedFox said:


> Thomasss NSW does not equal the rest of the country. If a NSW hybrid is on paperwork as a hybrid it is then sold interstate (not exactly uncommon) and this other state doesn't have the option of hybrids the python would be put on as pure. This is where the confusion could happen.
> 
> I'm Vic


i do realise that nsw doesnt make up 100% of australia , and i do realise that the confusion can happen , but to continually say that the licensing department doesnt allow them to be labelled as what they are is incorrect , and it has been used as a point of argument more than once throughout this thread which is why i think that it should be noted that it is infact an incorrect statement


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## champagne (Oct 3, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> Post should of read around 5% actually have major issues and most dont seem to be affected in anyway. As far as i am aware there is still not any documented papers that state that all jags have or possess a neuro disorder so for anyone to say otherwise it is just comes down to another person trying to bash on breeders/keepers of them.
> 
> More then happy to continue this through PM's so we can keep the thread on topic about "hybrid sibs" and not become another jag bashing thread.
> 
> ...



not bashing on jags but all do have neuro defect but some have such little neuro effect that you can hardly notice it but it is still there.... sometimes it take the snake to get really excited ie. breeding, combating, feeding ect before it shows and it may not show ever time but it is still there.

- - - Updated - - -



TrueBlue said:


> All jags show neuro symptoms sooner or later. The older they get the worse it seems to get. This is fact, always has been always will be.


You are basing you opinion on irresponsible breeding and yes if those breeders were trying to breed animals with major issues then they should not breed. The fact is yes a jag that shows serious neuro problems tend to get worse with age.... if you cant cull hatchlings with server problems jags or not you should not breed.


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## cement (Oct 3, 2013)

btsmorphs said:


> .
> 
> - - - Updated - - You are basing you opinion on irresponsible breeding and yes if those breeders were trying to breed animals with major issues then they should not breed. The fact is yes a jag that shows serious neuro problems tend to get worse with age.... if you cant cull hatchlings with server problems jags or not you should not breed.



Please enlighten me on what is "irresponsible breeding"?
I remember reading through an American carpet morph site years ago about their jags, and there were posts from people who had been trying to breed out/isolate the jag neuro issue from the pattern for over a decade and they were adamant it would not be done. SO when people, with 10 yrs plus, working on a particular issue fail to find a solution, its pretty obvious. The yanks don't go all secretive, and clandestine like we do out here.....they don't have to. The issue is discussed quite openly and as leaders in breeding the retards they are the ones I listen to. 
Do you think that we can breed responsibly, and breed jags differently to the yanks? The jag breeders will tell you yes. Wonder why??


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## Amazing Amazon (Oct 3, 2013)

Is there proof or is it just a presumption that breeding Jags that show less neuro conditions will produce offspring with less neuro symptoms?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 3, 2013)

100% presumption.
Ive spoken to people overseas about this, its been tried time and time again with NO succses
Breeders use this tall tale to sell their animals.


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## longqi (Oct 3, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> i do realise that nsw doesnt make up 100% of australia , and i do realise that the confusion can happen , but to continually say that the licensing department doesnt allow them to be labelled as what they are is incorrect , and it has been used as a point of argument more than once throughout this thread which is why i think that it should be noted that it is infact an incorrect statement



Noted and apologised for
I actually went on line to download as many transfer sheets as I could and must have missed reading this on NSW

Now we just need the rest to follow suit


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## thomasssss (Oct 4, 2013)

longqi said:


> Noted and apologised for
> I actually went on line to download as many transfer sheets as I could and must have missed reading this on NSW
> 
> Now we just need the rest to follow suit


no worries there listed in the species code list thingy , i found them when looking for the numbered codes to put into my log book 

would be great if other followed suit but i wont be holding my breath , i totally understand the points you guys are all making , sibs are a very controversial topic which is why i have sat on the side lines for most of it 

it has also given me alot to think about , i never planned on breeding my jag ( yes im a terrible person , i bought a jag better shoot me now before i pollute your gene pools ) in the first place but this has helped to further that mind set 
i like the look of them but i dont feel like i need or want to be apart of producing them


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## longqi (Oct 4, 2013)

Nobody on Earth can deny that good jags are top looking snakes
So I cannot blame anyone for owning one

But I applaud your decision not to breed them


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## thomasssss (Oct 4, 2013)

longqi said:


> Nobody on Earth can deny that good jags are top looking snakes
> So I cannot blame anyone for owning one
> 
> But I applaud your decision not to breed them


cheers , some may say that buy owning a jag that i am only supporting them , that may be the case in a way but its not like im standing their egging them on , i simply saw something i liked ad got it , it doesnt mean that i agree with any other dodgy doings that might go on behind closed doors or the way they arrived , it simply means i liked what i saw 

i can honestly say that if i couldn't own a jag i wouldnt give a rats , i dont care about the many exotics i cant have and the same would apply to jags but there here and here to stay like it or not , we can only hope that people are honest with what they sell and that there are always people keeping pure lines alive , the last one i think is pretty much covered


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## pythons unleashed (Oct 4, 2013)

TrueBlue said:


> None, never will.
> But have info from OZ, and overseas keepers that have been keeping them for years and all confirm this 100%.
> Alot of them have stopped keeping them because of the long term neuro issues.



Well I've been keeping them as long as all those breeders and I'm still going strong, in fact I purchase some off those breeders parents and am still using them.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 4, 2013)

Yes but some people just look past the neuro issuse. Some people never learn as they say.
Oh so youve been keeping them for a couple of years or so since the first original jag popped out.? lol.

I dont care what you keep, just telling it like it is, that jags have lost their appeal to most and are lossing more and more appeal to more people everyday. And rightly so.


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## zulu (Oct 6, 2013)

longqi said:


> Nobody on Earth can deny that good jags are top looking snakes
> So I cannot blame anyone for owning one
> 
> But I applaud your decision not to breed them



Top of the line black and yellow jungles are better looking than jags IMO cant see the attraction in the jags except the jag thats been bred with a black yellow jungle but might as well have the black and yellow jungle without the pollution to the genes .
Remember the first time i ever saw a really good black and yellow jungle many years ago, they are friggin amazing you just cant improve on something that good.


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## longqi (Oct 6, 2013)

zulu said:


> Top of the line black and yellow jungles are better looking than jags IMO cant see the attraction in the jags except the jag thats been bred with a black yellow jungle but might as well have the black and yellow jungle without the pollution to the genes .
> Remember the first time i ever saw a really good black and yellow jungle many years ago, they are friggin amazing you just cant improve on something that good.



Try gold ringed mangrove snake??
I agree the jungles are delicious and wish I could have kept mine
But they really only come in black/white and black/yellow
Jags come in many patterns and colours

IF jags did not have neuro I think they would have dominated the market by now
Neuro free jags were many designers dream
But it seems that after 13yrs of trying neuro is there and cannot be bred out

As more and more neuro free "morphs" etc come on line jags will keep vanishing into the woodwork
But how many of those new "morphs" will have come from Jag siblings??
Some jag siblings are stunning animals and with correct labeling should fetch good money

Its the confusion during sales and legality of hybrid siblings that leads to threads like this

Question
Does NSW ban the breeding of morelia subspecies?

If they do ban it why have have they included unknown/mixed on their lists?
Or is supposed to be only for diamond/coastal intergrades?


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## thomasssss (Oct 6, 2013)

longqi said:


> Question
> Does NSW ban the breeding of morelia subspecies?
> 
> If they do ban it why have have they included unknown/mixed on their lists?
> Or is supposed to be only for diamond/coastal intergrades?


dont know about the legality of breeding some of them but its not for intergrades , they actually have a code for diamond cross bredli among many many others , intergrades are labelled as such 

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/nature/CurrentSpeciesList.pdf

its a fair way down , about 22-23 down , you will see a whole heap of codes for different morelia crosses , some labelled as hybrids some just crosses , interesting how many there are really


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## cement (Oct 7, 2013)

.........


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## yellowbeard (Oct 7, 2013)

longqi said:


> Question
> Does NSW ban the breeding of morelia subspecies?



I think you meant to ask "Does NSW ban the breeding of Morelia subspecies hybrids or Morelia hybrids?"

I have not found anything in the licencing requirements that say you cant, so you can (if anyone has found different post up the proof).

If I remember correctly when the licencing system was introduce in NSW the only species that were listed as hybrids on the species list where the naturally occurring intergrades and there weren't many of them.

Now as of the 2013 list there are 13, mostly Morelia and a few dragons and skinks. So I would say that the licencing system in NSW is keeping up (or trying to) with what is actually being bred and understand that hybrids are here now and will be a part of the reptile industry for some time to come now.

As for "What should be done with sibs?" This is very simple, other states need to come out of the dark ages and review there licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such, the final buck stops at the licencing authority within your state, so if you want someone to blame try your state government.

Can people from states other than NSW please do a cut and paste of your licencing requirements where it says it is actually illegal to create hybrids?

I ask this as there is always a lot bollocks, hearsay and crap posted of this forum with out proof (names, papers articles etc.)!!


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## andynic07 (Oct 7, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> I think you meant to ask "Does NSW ban the breeding of Morelia subspecies hybrids or Morelia hybrids?"
> 
> I have not found anything in the licencing requirements that say you cant, so you can (if anyone has found different post up the proof).
> 
> ...



http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/illegal-breed-hybrids-qld-201556/


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## turtle (Oct 7, 2013)

pythons unleashed said:


> Well I've been keeping them as long as all those breeders and I'm still going strong, in fact I purchase some off those breeders parents and am still using them.



So you have been keeping them as long as all those breeders. Does that mean youve had them when the first low grade Jags got smuggled in the country or did you smuggle them in way before that?

Dan


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## cement (Oct 7, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> I think you meant to ask "Does NSW ban the breeding of Morelia subspecies hybrids or Morelia hybrids?"
> 
> I have not found anything in the licencing requirements that say you cant, so you can (if anyone has found different post up the proof).
> 
> I ask this as there is always a lot bollocks, hearsay and crap posted of this forum with out proof (names, papers articles etc.)!!



When I was organising a ballot with the NPWS for some snakes I asked them. The answer you are after is no, they have not made it illegal. But the general consensus amongst them is they don't like it.
What some people need to understand is that the guys and girls that work for NPWS don't make the rules, they are the messenger. They are entitled to their opinions like everyone else.
They have had to try and deal with a massive growth in the hobby and there isn't really an us against them mentality. In fact I would think that by making it easier for the people to list their animals as they really are shows the opposite.


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## yellowbeard (Oct 7, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/illegal-breed-hybrids-qld-201556/



Thank you for providing a fact below is the cut and paste:

*Can I breed protected animals? 
*Yes, if you are the holder of an appropriate licence you are entitled to breed those species listed under Schedule 3 of the 
_Nature Conservation (Wildlife) Regulation 2006_. 
However, it is illegal to knowingly breed a mutation or hybrid of a protected animal, although there are some specific exemptions that apply to the holder of a commercial wildlife licence or recreational wildlife licence for live protected birds.


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## andynic07 (Oct 7, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> Thank you for providing a fact below is the cut and paste:
> 
> *Can I breed protected animals?
> *Yes, if you are the holder of an appropriate licence you are entitled to breed those species listed under Schedule 3 of the
> ...


The thing that I took out of this statement is that mutations are also illegal, I have been told by members on here that they have directly asked questions about colour mutations like hypomelanistic and albinoism and they are fine so even with the rule in black and white there is still grey areas like what mutations are not allowed?


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## cement (Oct 7, 2013)

I can only speak about my dealings with NSW NPWS.
That bit is probably a different state, yes?


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## yellowbeard (Oct 8, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> The thing that I took out of this statement is that mutations are also illegal, I have been told by members on here that they have directly asked questions about colour mutations like hypomelanistic and albinoism and they are fine so even with the rule in black and white there is still grey areas like what mutations are not allowed?



For QLD it states "it is illegal to knowingly breed a mutation or hybrid of a protected animal" so legally the QLD authorities could confiscate them, how ever if what you have been told by other members true and the QLD authorities are fine with it, then QLD needs to review it's licencing of reptiles.

So far the breeding of hybrids:

Not allowed in QLD
Allowed in NSW

What about the other states?
Can people from states other than NSW please do a cut and paste of your licencing requirements where it says it is actually illegal to create hybrids?

I ask this as there is always a lot bollocks, hearsay and crap posted of this forum with out proof (names, papers articles etc.)!!


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## Wing_Nut (Oct 8, 2013)

WA

9. No species or subspecies kept under the provisions of this license is to be allowed to inter- breed under any circumstances.


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## KaotikJezta (Oct 8, 2013)

Victoria:

46 Inter-breeding of wildlife
(1) A person must not, without the prior written
approval of the Secretary—
(a) permit different taxa of wildlife to interbreed
unless those taxa of wildlife are known
to inter-breed in the wild;
(b) permit taxa of wildlife to inter-breed with
another taxa of animal that is not wildlife;
Example
A dingo may not be bred with a dog (Canis lupis
familiaris) or dingo-dog hybrid.
(c) sell or dispose of cross-breeds of wildlife
unless those cross-breeds are known to occur
in the wild.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.


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## Rogue5861 (Oct 8, 2013)

Sa-
http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/fi...-9e6100c2815b/FPU_KeepingProtectedAnimals.pdf

"Cross breeding-
It is an offence to cross breed any protected animal with any other species or sub-species of animal."


Rick


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## phatty (Oct 8, 2013)

i cant seem to find the darwin one but just got off the phone to parks they said you can breed any thing with anything as long as it breeds 
by the looks of it their is a lot of illegal activities going on down south


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## Stuart (Oct 8, 2013)

phatty said:


> i cant seem to find the darwin one but just got off the phone to parks they said you can breed any thing with anything as long as it breeds
> by the looks of it their is a lot of illegal activities going on down south



I have the actual ruling in writing somewhere. I'll dig it out for you when I'm home Chris


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## yellowbeard (Oct 13, 2013)

So it would seem that most other states need to come out of the dark ages and review there licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such.


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## Rogue5861 (Oct 13, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> So it would seem that most other states need to come out of the dark ages and review there licencing systems to reflect what is being bred and make it mandatory to list a hybrid as such.



Or just keep a ban on them an euthanase any found. Why much we accept crossbred species even when there licencing conditions forbid them to? Anyone caught with them should have a fine given to them and if caught a second time they lose their right to keeping australian natives for x amount of years.

If the fix is to put them on the species lists i honestly think that would be just bending over for these people that have broken the condition of their permits, this i do no feel is an acceptable option if we wish to keep them as natural as possible.


Rick


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## saximus (Oct 13, 2013)

Rogue5861 said:


> Or just keep a ban on them an euthanase any found. Why much we accept crossbred species even when there licencing conditions forbid them to? Anyone caught with them should have a fine given to them and if caught a second time they lose their right to keeping australian natives for x amount of years.
> 
> If the fix is to put them on the species lists i honestly think that would be just bending over for these people that have broken the condition of their permits, this i do no feel is an acceptable option if we wish to keep them as natural as possible.
> 
> ...



Except sub-species crosses aren't illegal from my understanding. So mixed Morelia spilota ssp are legal but aren't being recorded correctly because they simply can't. I would imagine that's what people like Yellowbeard are getting at


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## chimerapro (Oct 13, 2013)

saximus said:


> Except sub-species crosses aren't illegal from my understanding. So mixed Morelia spilota ssp are legal but aren't being recorded correctly because they simply can't. I would imagine that's what people like Yellowbeard are getting at


The big question is were do we/dept draw the line?? My personal opinion is if you ban and make illegal cross genus and species hybrids then subspecies hybrids should be banned too as they are as much if not more of an ecological risk than a gtpXscrupxchildrens. A bredli is an ecological risk in any state that is outside of its natural range. After thorough discussion with dept heads here in Qld they won't give a distinction between any hybrid be it subspecies cross or genus cross. Seems very ignorant IMO same as many of these comments in the thread. Saximus I commend you on your rational thinking whether your pro hybrid or not I helps to think with common sense.


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## Stevo2 (Oct 13, 2013)

saximus said:


> Except sub-species crosses aren't illegal from my understanding. So mixed Morelia spilota ssp are legal but aren't being recorded correctly because they simply can't. I would imagine that's what people like Yellowbeard are getting at



Would not a mixed Morelia spilota ssp be classed as a mutation, which is also illegal in QLD?


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## saximus (Oct 13, 2013)

Stevo2 said:


> Would not a mixed Morelia spilota ssp be classed as a mutation, which is also illegal in QLD?



Possibly but albino is also a mutation and that's legal there. From what people have said, Qld are pretty haphazard with how they choose to apply that definition


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## chimerapro (Oct 13, 2013)

Stevo2 said:


> Would not a mixed Morelia spilota ssp be classed as a mutation, which is also illegal in QLD?


No it's not its a hybrid! Mutation is completely different to hybrids!


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 13, 2013)

It is "the intent to knowingly breed a mutation" which is illegal...some people take that as a loophole.... intent is the word


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## wokka (Oct 13, 2013)

yellowbeard said:


> For QLD it states "it is illegal to knowingly breed a mutation or hybrid of a protected animal" so legally the QLD authorities could confiscate them, how ever if what you have been told by other members true and the QLD authorities are fine with it, then QLD needs to review it's licencing of reptiles.
> 
> ?
> Can people from states other than NSW please do a cut and paste of your licencing requirements where it says it is actually illegal to create hybrids?
> ...



I think it can be very difficult to legally prove that someone, KNOWINGLY has done something . If it was proven, does it necessarily follow that the animals would be confiscated? Is there a rule stating that you cannot keep hybrids or mutations, or just that you cannot breed them? Many keepers have legally imported hybrids or mutations from say NSW, where they can legally be bred, and kept them in Queensland. I would think that the allowing of the importation of such animals, by Qld DPI, is tandamount to allowing them to be legally kept in Queensland.


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2013)

Copy / paste:

Guideline
Page 1 of 13 • 070702
Wildlife Management
Keeping wildlife privately in Queensland — Conditions and restrictions — Keeping and using controlled, commercial, recreational, restricted or international animals under a recreational wildlife licence


A person who holds a recreational wildlife licence may breed animals under the licence. It is an offence to knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal; however, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence may breed a mutation, but not a hybrid.


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## chimerapro (Oct 13, 2013)

Waterrat said:


> Copy / paste:
> 
> Guideline
> Page 1 of 13 • 070702
> ...


When the dept themselves doesn't know what a hybrid is in the literal sense then how can they claim to have a law regarding it? Section 92 part 1 (a) of the nature conservation act amendment 2013 states otherwise Michael so your statement is wrong! Mutations are overlooked yet in the act are illegal its there in black and white. A hybrid in the depts opinion is a human manipulated breeding isn't keeping snakes in cages the first step in human manipulation anyway? Just because hybrids haven't been found in the wild doesn't mean they can't and haven't happened


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2013)

My statement is wrong? It's not my statement, it's a copy / paste.

Geee, it doesn't take long to get nailed here.


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## yellowbeard (Oct 14, 2013)

Waterrat said:


> however, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence may breed a mutation, but not a hybrid.



How about you do a full cut and paste as this statement refers to birds!!!!!!!!


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## chimerapro (Oct 14, 2013)

There we go 

- - - Updated - - -



Waterrat said:


> My statement is wrong? It's not my statement, it's a copy / paste.
> 
> Geee, it doesn't take long to get nailed here.


 It doesn't take long to be found out to have quoted the wrong section of the act either


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## andynic07 (Oct 14, 2013)

wokka said:


> I think it can be very difficult to legally prove that someone, KNOWINGLY has done something . If it was proven, does it necessarily follow that the animals would be confiscated? Is there a rule stating that you cannot keep hybrids or mutations, or just that you cannot breed them? Many keepers have legally imported hybrids or mutations from say NSW, where they can legally be bred, and kept them in Queensland. I would think that the allowing of the importation of such animals, by Qld DPI, is tandamount to allowing them to be legally kept in Queensland.


I am not sure where I got this information from but I was under the belief that in Queensland keeping two snakes in the same enclosure is enough proof of intent.


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## Stevo2 (Oct 14, 2013)

chimerapro said:


> View attachment 298739
> There we go
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...



Although both still have the same intent, lol. Protected animals are further defined as controlled, commercial, recreational, restricted or international animals within the act and guidelines and refer to both reptiles and birds.


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## wokka (Oct 14, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I am not sure where I got this information from but I was under the belief that in Queensland keeping two snakes in the same enclosure is enough proof of intent.


It sounds like the sort of thing you'd find on forums! I'd like to see legal precident for that. Do they need to be different sexes? Is there a requirement that snakes be kept seperate in Queensland?


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## thomasssss (Oct 14, 2013)

Stevo2 said:


> Although both still have the same intent, lol. Protected animals are further defined as controlled, commercial, recreational, restricted or international animals within the act and guidelines and refer to both reptiles and birds.


yes but the one referring to birds allows mutations , the one for reptiles does not i think thats what their saying


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## Stevo2 (Oct 14, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> yes but the one referring to birds allows mutations , the one for reptiles does not i think thats what their saying



Ah


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## andynic07 (Oct 15, 2013)

wokka said:


> It sounds like the sort of thing you'd find on forums! I'd like to see legal precident for that. Do they need to be different sexes? Is there a requirement that snakes be kept seperate in Queensland?


Possibly something said on here but I think it was told to me from a breeder. I guess there are a few flaws in that theory once you think about it because you could always say that they were both sexed as females. There is no requirement to house snakes separately in Queensland as far as I know. I would think that if you paired the same two snakes up multiple years that it would be easier to prove intent.


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## =bECS= (Oct 17, 2013)

Here's some food for thought from this site, regarding labeling them as they are, people being honest about the fact they are hybrids or jag sibs etc.

So without naming names, there is a diamond for sale at an exuberant price, no other x's mentioned in the advertisment. 
Now a little background research shows a first post stating that its a 75% diamond 25% jungle. The parents were a pure diamond and a jungle x diamond. 
So say someone buys the said diamond at the 10x markup to what the owner originally paid (all was revealed simply by clicking forum posts) then breeds it and sells offspring as pure because as far as they know it is. 
This is a prime example of why there are so many debates of what to do with siblings and the honesty of sellers.
Someone had a brilliant signature on here once.... a wise python knows its parents!


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## andynic07 (Oct 17, 2013)

=bECS= said:


> Here's some food for thought from this site, regarding labeling them as they are, people being honest about the fact they are hybrids or jag sibs etc.
> 
> So without naming names, there is a diamond for sale at an exuberant price, no other x's mentioned in the advertisment.
> Now a little background research shows a first post stating that its a 75% diamond 25% jungle. The parents were a pure diamond and a jungle x diamond.
> ...


That is poor form in my opinion. Are you able to PM the details at all?


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## =bECS= (Oct 17, 2013)

Look in for sale section, recent ad, not hard to figure out. Its an expensive diamond with only a few forum posts


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## RedFox (Oct 17, 2013)

I saw that. 

This is exactly how easily breeding lines can get mixed up. This seller started off with the animal labelled as what it was and received some not so great feedback as well as a comparision between pure diamond and hybrid prices.

That being said I would hope most of those looking to breed pures would be looking at the history of the snake instead of taking it on the seller word, and would buy from reputable sources.


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## Vixen (Oct 17, 2013)

RedFox said:


> That being said I would hope most of those looking to breed pures would be looking at the history of the snake instead of taking it on the seller word, and would buy from reputable sources.



You would hope so, but some people are only out for a cheap bargain. You get what you pay for but they fail to realise this, it's the same people that go on to then breed the animal without really knowing anything of it's background.

Example they won't go and buy a nice locality coastal for $200 when they can go and pick up some $80 coastal that may or may not even be pure, just because it saves a little out of their pockets!


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## junglepython2 (Oct 17, 2013)

RedFox said:


> That being said I would hope most of those looking to breed pures would be looking at the history of the snake instead of taking it on the seller word, and would buy from reputable sources.



Unfortunately with east coast species you have little choice but to go off the sellers word and reputation when it come to purity and locale.


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