# Advice on handling and Introduction



## EllieSkyline (Oct 11, 2017)

Hi

I have posted a little on here already, but thought i'd take this opportunity to properly introduced myself and snake, while seeking some more advise. 

I'm Ellie, absolutely love snakes. I am a car enthusiasts which consumes me, so I waited sometime before getting my first snake as I wanted to assure I was financially able to get a decent animal and the best of everything for it.

I went with a Julatten Jungle Python, hatched December 2016, bred by Ken Doyle. I wanted this snake as I love the nice head of a Jungle, patterns, size, and the silver black and white appearance. I named her Valyria.


Handling;
She has definitely not settled down as much as I expected her to by now. Just to clarify I am not a nervous owner / handler. I definitely do not feel even remotely nervous when I do anything with her, I am totally comfortable. 

She is up and down, which is expected sometimes more relaxed then others, however she is still quite flighty most of the time. I use only my hands (no hook) and have no issue's removing her from her enclosure. 

She does not strike, but show's obvious sings of nervousness, heavy breathing, dilated pupils, sometimes borderline attempts to jump from your hands. Actually she did bite me twice for the first time since I got her yesterday, but to be far I was poking around her enclosure without removing her (I do usually do this with no issue, but my guess is she is probably becoming more comfortable and aware of her territory and felt threatened, I should probably take her out from now on hey)

To be honest I am not overly careful with her, I just pick her straight up and let her cruise around my hands / arms / pockets / hair etc, I sometimes touch her head trying to desensitize her to it, sometimes she doesn't react other times she jumps away. Some times I get her out every day other time's I leave her be for 3 - 4 days, especially after a feed. 

Basically I do not really have any concerns with handling, just curios if maybe I am pushing her to hard. Any advise to help her relax more, should I be handling her less, and not touch her head at all? Any tricks to help her relax? 



Feeding;
I have purchased two book's which are still a week away, but I just want some more clarification on feeding. Currently she eats once I week. Should I be feeding her more? She is on fuzzy rats. 

Live feeding? Is live feeding good for them, do they enjoy it? I feel as though it would be beneficial for her as it is more natural.

How? When? Do you switch to live feeding? Is it one or the other, once you live feed that is the only way? What are the pro's and con's etc?

Also food variety, instead of rats only can your incorporate other prey into their diet? 

Exactly how do you gauge the appropriate food/prey size?


Apart from that I don't feel there are any other concern's she poops regularly, sheds well, and will have a very realistic large enclosure finished off soon. 

Here are some pics just for fun


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## kittycat17 (Oct 11, 2017)

Great job with her so far 
First off live feeding is illegal and doesn’t benefit the animal at all  

You can offer other foods like rabbits, chickens and quail as some exceptions. But you can find that they get stuck on birds as prey and will refuse rats so until she’s fully grown I would stick with rats 

I gauge the appropriate size of prey by leaving a good size lump, generally 1.5 -2 x the width of the snake  


On nervousness I find that settles down as they get bigger she still looks quite small in those pics so I would bump up her food size  
My hatchlings are 10 mths old and are feeding on weaner rats and could probably go to smaller  (they hatched jan 6th) 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Stompsy (Oct 11, 2017)

+1 for everything @kittycat17 has suggested.

My only other advice is to leave her be for at least 7 days, don't attempt handling or even open her enclosure as she will need time to get settled and used to her new surroundings. And I'd also suggest keeping her in the click clack enclosure she is in now until she gets bigger. She'll feel more secure in a smaller space and that will bring benefits for handling too!

After that time, feed her... then wait another 2 or 3 days (until she defecates) and then attempt handling her again.

I handle my snake probably once a week and he handles like a dream but it took a little while to get to that point.

She's stunning BTW. 

EDIT: To add to the anti-live feeding... a live rat or mouse can easily injure your snake if she doesn't consume it straight away, so on top of being illegal, it's dangerous to the snake and should be avoided.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Oct 11, 2017)

Hmmmm, Live feeding is not illegal KC. (Sorry) However it is frowned upon and is not something that should be necessary in 99.7% of cases. (And live rodents are capable of killing snakes)

Ok Ellie, Hi, It is a large post and I admit I do regularly speed read and miss important bits but you don't say how long you have had the animal. (As far as I can see). New animals should be left at least a week or 2, often longer to get used to their new environment. 
Make sure the environment is correct, temp, daylight hours, location of enclosure, (not getting too much foot traffic), plenty of places it can hide away if it so wishes.

Jungles are well known for being a bit flighty though many people will attest that they have calm animals so it could calm down in time. So long as its not biting its always a good place to be and the potential is good.
I would personally reduce the amount of handling, its not something snakes yearn for but something they tolerate. Sometimes the more you handle the more tolerant they become, others behave calmer with reduced handling (might be these are the ones that are more nervous).


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## EllieSkyline (Oct 11, 2017)

Hi all thanks for the fast replies!

Ok so yeh I left out some important information, I have had her since July so about 3 months. I did a hell of a lot of research before hand, and yes on arrival she was left untouched for a week and a half. She lives in my bedroom which has no traffic, and has remained in her small clickclack for security.

When I first started handling she bit the first 3 times, then got totally over it. However I have noticed she is kind of going backwards lately which is why I am questioning that perhaps I am pushing her two hard. Like you said ''Pauls Pythons'' I know Jungles can be flighty so I did initially think it's just her temperament coming out of the shell, however due to her nervous symptoms, I feel that it is not so much temperament and more still nervous, but after 3 months I feel this should have eased?

Like I said not any real concerns with handling she is fine, just a bit unpredictable which I do not really mind, I actually wouldn't mind a bit of a lively snake, but if it is nerves rather then temperament, I hope to ease them, as I want her to feel secure and comfortable with me.

Most of those photo's are a little old, the latest one is where she is draped over the vine, but it's hard to gauge size. I might actually post a new photo tonight showing her true current size. Because I feel as though the rat size is correct, they seem relatively larger then her, and she does have a decent bump after a feed, but I have noticed that she appears to be smaller then other pythons her age, which is why I am thinking perhaps I am not feeding often enough?

Anyway I'll post a size photo tonight for a better explanation, on what size rats you guys think we should be up too.



One last question in regards to enclosures, when would be an appropriate time to move into the bigger enclosure? I have noticed she is always out now, she use to hide mostly all the time, but in the last few weeks she is always cutting laps (usually feed her when I see this behavior) or hanging on her mini vine, I feel like she wants more space. Also her large enclosure will be in the living room, which has more traffic but has closed in sides and a lot of hiding.


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## Yellowtail (Oct 11, 2017)

Hi Ellie, I've been watching this for a while and not sure if I should get involved or could add anything not covered already.
You got Valyria from me 13/07/17 and I am like a proud parent happy to see she is looking good, they are beautiful little pythons. The last 2 photos you posted of her were taken before that but she is now 10 mths old and probably a bit larger by now and while pure Julattens are not a large snake and only about 1.2 - 1.4 M as adults, fuzzy rats are about right for now you can go up a size soon. Live rodents are not a good idea for reasons covered earlier, just handle her less often until she settles down, they are a bit nervous and defensive if they don't feel secure.
I can't wait to see her in your new enclosure but make sure she has suitable hides, please post some photos in the gallery.


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## EllieSkyline (Oct 11, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> Hi Ellie, I've been watching this for a while and not sure if I should get involved or could add anything not covered already.
> You got Valyria from me 13/07/17 and I am like a proud parent happy to see she is looking good, they are beautiful little pythons. The last 2 photos you posted of her were taken before that but she is now 10 mths old and probably a bit larger by now and while pure Julattens are not a large snake and only about 1.2 - 1.4 M as adults, fuzzy rats are about right for now you can go up a size soon. Live rodents are not a good idea for reasons covered earlier, just handle her less often until she settles down, they are a bit nervous and defensive if they don't feel secure.
> I can't wait to see her in your new enclosure but make sure she has suitable hides, please post some photos in the gallery.



Hi! Oh great to see you are on here! I absolutely love her she is perfect  and over all she has been a sweety just still pretty nervous and like I said I thought she would have settled with me by now, which makes me feel like I am doing something wrong, hence why I am speaking out. I would hate to be doing something wrong by her. Maybe I handle her to much. Ill take it down a notch. 

Yep I thought fuzzy rats seemed like the right size. She has one left out of a 6 pack, should I go up a size for the next packet and continue feeding once a week? Or should I get another 6 pack of fuzzy rats and feed maybe twice a week?

I think she will love her new enclosure, I am going all out on it, very vertical with lots of climbing and plenty of vegetation, rock wall, and completely spoilt with $300 worth of virgin cork bark tubes for hiding and climbing, it should look like a south eastern tropical rain forest when I am done haha.


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## pinefamily (Oct 11, 2017)

Well done on everything you've done so far Ellie. The research and the proper care taken show you are serious about doing the right thing by your new snake.
Re the live feeding, I was under the impression it was illegal too. Perhaps it is a state by state thing? Happy to be wrong of course.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## EllieSkyline (Oct 11, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Well done on everything you've done so far Ellie. The research and the proper care taken show you are serious about doing the right thing by your new snake.
> Re the live feeding, I was under the impression it was illegal too. Perhaps it is a state by state thing? Happy to be wrong of course.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk




Oh thank you  my animals are paramount to me! 

Yeh I had no idea about the live feeding, I just figured it would replicate extremely necessary primal instinctive behavior so it may be beneficial for what ever reason to do it, but it makes sense that it can be dangerous. I won't be looking into anymore. Probably is different from state to state, definitely the case for most thing's probably the same with reptile regulations.


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## Scutellatus (Oct 11, 2017)

A good rule of thumb for feeding that I use is, the prey size should be roughly two to three times the width of the snakes head and the snake will be ready for its next meal once it has passed its last meal.


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## Bl69aze (Oct 11, 2017)

Awesome looking snake!

Yes live feeding itself is not a law how ever not giving the animal a form of escape is. It comes down to a form of animal “torture” (although I wouldn’t put it that extreme) as the rodent has no way to escape as it would in the wild.

Taken from rspca:
The legality of feeding live mice to reptiles depends upon the relevant State/Territory legislation and relevant code of practice. In some States, the code recommends that reptiles should not be fed live food for their own protection and all vertebrate-eating reptiles must be encouraged to take dead food. In others it is recommended that: live vertebrates are not used as a food unless they are required absolutely as a food source by a species or individual animal; live rodents should not be left in a reptile enclosure overnight or for an extended period; and wild-caught rodents should not be used. However, these codes of practice are not enforceable by law and are therefore recommendations only.

Aswell as being bad for the snake in captivity. There’s a picture floating around of a ball python who “befriended” a mouse and next morning they found the mouse eating the snake


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## pinefamily (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks for clearing that up, Bl69aze. Except in cases of absolute necessity live feeding shouldn't be promoted or recommended. Even then, it should only be done by people experienced enough to know what they are doing. Just my 2 cents worth.
Love your new avatar btw. Is that a pet? I want to get a pet duck, and call it Selwood (AFL joke for those that don't get it).

Sorry for hijacking your thread, Ellie.


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## Yellowtail (Oct 11, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, Bl69aze. Except in cases of absolute necessity live feeding shouldn't be promoted or recommended. Even then, it should only be done by people experienced enough to know what they are doing. Just my 2 cents worth.
> Love your new avatar btw. Is that a pet? I want to get a pet duck, and call it Selwood (AFL joke for those that don't get it).
> 
> It will need a bandage around it's head as well. I have a friend with a pet duck called Roast.





EllieSkyline said:


> Hi! Oh great to see you are on here! I absolutely love her she is perfect  and over all she has been a sweety just still pretty nervous and like I said I thought she would have settled with me by now, which makes me feel like I am doing something wrong, hence why I am speaking out. I would hate to be doing something wrong by her. Maybe I handle her to much. Ill take it down a notch.
> 
> Yep I thought fuzzy rats seemed like the right size. She has one left out of a 6 pack, should I go up a size for the next packet and continue feeding once a week? Or should I get another 6 pack of fuzzy rats and feed maybe twice a week?
> 
> I think she will love her new enclosure, I am going all out on it, very vertical with lots of climbing and plenty of vegetation, rock wall, and completely spoilt with $300 worth of virgin cork bark tubes for hiding and climbing, it should look like a south eastern tropical rain forest when I am done haha.



I've followed your progress with the unusual enclosure and it's amazing.
Feeding once a week is enough, just go up a rat size when you think she can handle it.


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## Bl69aze (Oct 11, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, Bl69aze. Except in cases of absolute necessity live feeding shouldn't be promoted or recommended. Even then, it should only be done by people experienced enough to know what they are doing. Just my 2 cents worth.
> Love your new avatar btw. Is that a pet? I want to get a pet duck, and call it Selwood (AFL joke for those that don't get it).
> 
> Sorry for hijacking your thread, Ellie.


Haha no, it’s just a picture I found when trying to explain to people how cute ducks are after watching some really heart warming videos <3


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