# do you feed live food to lizards



## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

Just wondering if people feed live food to lizards and whether there is legalities with that. Are you allowed to feed live bugs and if so why arent you allowed to feed live mice etc


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

You are allowed to feed live invertebrates, feeding live vertebrates is illegal unless you have a valid reason, if the animal will take dead prey then you do not have a valid reason


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

why are you allowed to feed inverts but not verts. Not having a go just wondering what the diff is there both living creatures and all that stuff.
If your lizards eat dead inverts does that mean you cant feed live or are you still allowed as there only bugs afterall


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## gosia (Jan 17, 2012)

Why don't you type "live food to snakes" in the search on this website - and then you will receive the answer to this question in a form of 1000 different posts like yours.

Main reason is that a) its cruel and b) live mice can actually harm the snake!...do some searching...


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

a) why is it cruel to feed day old pinkie mouse which b) wont harm snake they are bred to be eaten and would be eaten in wild
but you can feed month old grasshopper.
In the wild a grasshopper would have a much better chance at survival and being its a flight from fright insect is much more likely to know whats going on over a day old pinkie that doesnt even know its a pinkie let alone the fact its about to be eaten. once again not having a go just cant see the difference.
many people would catch a wild mouse or rat in a trap or bait to poison them yet tell people your brown snake eats live mice and its wrong. all im doing is poisoning it just in a different way and i bet my poison works quicker and with less pain than the internal bleed to death ratsak


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## graffix (Jan 17, 2012)

I can see WP's point though and the only reason I can think of is because big brother said so.

Now get back in your cage and don't rock the boat. I am not going to have to try to convert umpteen lizards onto dead bugs. I have no room in the freezer as it is.


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## gosia (Jan 17, 2012)

The problem is, that the one day old pinkie will turn into a fully grown rat/rabbit etc very soon. Once you start feeding live hard for snake to take frozen! So agree with graffix - don't rock the boat! Go use the search button before the old boys on here will strip you to bits.... just saying


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

just did search like you suggested still cant find valid points that back up your argument. you want me to kill mouse then freeze then defrost then feed over just plain feed and let nature do her thing. Can anyone explain how its cruel, im not doing it for enjoyment, the snakes are doing what comes naturally and why cant you feed your lizards dead bugs or is it you cant be bothered and there for its not cruel. if i was a mummy insect and you were feeding my baby insects i reckon id think its cruel


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

What type of snake are you feeding?


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## Tildy (Jan 17, 2012)

It's because mammals can feel both emotion and pain ergo, feeding live mice at any age is cruel. Insects cannot feel pain or fear or any emotion ergo, feeding live insects is not cruel. Thats about the summary of it I think.


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## gosia (Jan 17, 2012)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/feed-snake-live-food-warning-166009/


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## Red-Ink (Jan 17, 2012)

Simple answer mate, invertebrates do not fall under animal cruelty laws.


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## gosia (Jan 17, 2012)

Mice are killed in a humane way before being frozen not hunted and squeezed to death. The biger the mouse or rat more chance for them to harm your snake as well. With bugs - death is quick, never sow it coming and dead before they can blink!


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

the snake in that photo was left in with the rat and the rat got hungry. seen similar on a rescue i did later found out the bloke had put snake in before he went away for long weekend snake didnt eat rat, rat ate snake its a rat eat snake eat rat world out there. that is bad husbandry not a solid reason not to feed live especially to venomous, ever seen a inland taipan down a plains rat hole snake always wins and isnt cruel


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## crl94 (Jan 17, 2012)

why are we discussing snakes when it says lizard. feed my beardies live crickets that have been put to sleep in the fridge so they still twitch and stretch. Dead without being completely still.


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

gosia said:


> Mice are killed in a humane way before being frozen not hunted and squeezed to death. The biger the mouse or rat more chance for them to harm your snake as well. With bugs - death is quick, never sow it coming and dead before they can blink!



Bugs dont blink so it could be really slow and painful and you would still be right i suppose and when you say humane way how do you kill your mice and rats with love.


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## Jacquie (Jan 17, 2012)

I know were you are coming from but people don't feel the same about bugs than they do for mammals. Bugs do have a nervous system so they probably do feel pain. I personally cool all my insects first than crush and decapitate their head before feeding them to my lizards.


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

crl94 said:


> why are we discussing snakes when it says lizard. feed my beardies live crickets that have been put to sleep in the fridge so they still twitch and stretch. Dead without being completely still.



Nice finally a real answer thankyou


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## Red-Ink (Jan 17, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> the snake in that photo was left in with the rat and the rat got hungry. seen similar on a rescue i did later found out the bloke had put snake in before he went away for long weekend snake didnt eat rat, rat ate snake its a rat eat snake eat rat world out there. that is bad husbandry not a solid reason not to feed live especially to venomous, ever seen a inland taipan down a plains rat hole snake always wins and isnt cruel




yeah... dead rats don't bite back all the more reason to feed them instead don't you think? If the snakes are sold to you already taking FK or FT prey, *what's the real reason you want to feed live?* Please, don't say it's natural, as it is highly un-natural for you to be keeping a snake in a box.

If you can train a lizard to eat FT i.e. not moving at all and reheated let us know how you did it. As mentioned you can feed snakes live food under certain special circumstances as in it's the last resort not the it's the "natural" way excuse.


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## gosia (Jan 17, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> and when you say humane way how do you kill your mice and rats with love.



You whisper "I love you" while you gas them to sleep :lol:


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

Ok its simple, yes a pinkie is harmless, but most snake species will eventually have to go onto larger food items, so its best to just keep them on dead prey items from day one, once a snake is used to live prey it can be very hard to get them eating dead prey again, I dont see why anyone would bother going through that


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## notechistiger (Jan 17, 2012)

Insects are not capable of feeling pain; rodents (mammals) are. Thus, feeding mammals is cruel because it's a slow, painful and terrifying death.

If you've ever seen lizards eat insects then you would know that they get munched and swallowed within just a few seconds. That is not slow or painful.

Do you see why it's illegal (and unethical) to do one and not the other yet?


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## Tildy (Jan 17, 2012)

Bugs do have a nervous system but don't process physical stimuli in the same way that more complex creatures do. And whether individuals think that they feel pain or not, the general consensus in the biology community is that they dont really feel much pain so thats why the laws are the way they are. There is reasearch starting to emerge to the contrary so who knows what will happen to the laws in future.


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## gosia (Jan 17, 2012)

crl94 said:


> why are we discussing snakes when it says lizard. feed my beardies live crickets that have been put to sleep in the fridge so they still twitch and stretch. Dead without being completely still.



:shock:

OOOOKKKKKK..... snakes - lizards.....the rats/mice can still harm them...more a lizard then a snake


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## Aussie-Pride (Jan 17, 2012)

I eat bananas and watermelons just saying:shock:


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

i understand why its illegal (but its not unethical)to feed mammals live. There cute and greenies love them. In the future it will be made unlawful to feed any animal live foods, there is a major study under way right now and the rspca are pushing for complete ban, its just taken them 15 yrs to catch up. i personally feed my snakes dead when i can but ive had trouble in past and have had to resort to feeding live to my bubba, Eastern brown as his meals were not digesting properlyand was told by vet to feed live therefor venom pumps around body and then starts digestion. any other suggestions on how to overcome this problem


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> i understand why its illegal (but its not unethical)to feed mammals live. There cute and greenies love them. In the future it will be made unlawful to feed any animal live foods, there is a major study under way right now and the rspca are pushing for complete ban, its just taken them 15 yrs to catch up. i personally feed my snakes dead when i can but ive had trouble in past and have had to resort to feeding live to my bubba, Eastern brown as his meals were not digesting properlyand was told by vet to feed live therefor venom pumps around body and then starts digestion. any other suggestions on how to overcome this problem



Give him a hotter basking spot, browns should be able to digest without venom, the fact venomoids still flourish is testament to that (yes RH is twat etc etc etc etc)


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

Hes in outside pit and has a hot spot of 35 degrees its fine for all others just him and because hes with two girlies they all get live as i cant risk him grabbing a FT


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## Reptar859 (Jan 17, 2012)

As usual not a great deal of information for the intial topic. Being allowed to feed live insects to lizards is tolerated and feeding live mammals to snakes is not. If your snake wont take tharwed food do you starve it to death !!!! NNOOO. You feed it what it eats or risk the chance of a suprise inspection to explain your high mortallity rate. So you feed what is right for you shut your trap and we all keep peacfully.,


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## Wrightpython (Jan 17, 2012)

Reptar859 said:


> As usual not a great deal of information for the intial topic. Being allowed to feed live insects to lizards is tolerated and feeding live mammals to snakes is not. If your snake wont take tharwed food do you starve it to death !!!! NNOOO. You feed it what it eats or risk the chance of a suprise inspection to explain your high mortallity rate. So you feed what is right for you shut your trap and we all keep peacfully.,



you sound like a lovely person to be around


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## Reptar859 (Jan 17, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> you sound like a lovely person to be around



Thank you :twisted:


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> Hes in outside pit and has a hot spot of 35 degrees its fine for all others just him and because hes with two girlies they all get live as i cant risk him grabbing a FT



REally>?? I didn't realise it was legal to keep dangerous species this way, also, does he have a artificial heat source?


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## Jeannine (Jan 17, 2012)

*i still cant work out why its illegal to feed live food to snakes, after all i dont think they encounter many frozen rats/mice/lizards in the wild 

yes i know the food could turn around and make a 'meal' out of the snake but dont they run the same risk in the wild? **shrugs**
*


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## chase77 (Jan 17, 2012)

Jeannine said:


> *i still cant work out why its illegal to feed live food to snakes, after all i dont think they encounter many frozen rats/mice/lizards in the wild
> 
> yes i know the food could turn around and make a 'meal' out of the snake but dont they run the same risk in the wild? **shrugs**
> *



For one, they're not in the wild, two, there's risk of injury to your snake, and three, it's cruel to the rodent. 

I seriously hope that your not serious with that question.


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## dihsmaj (Jan 17, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> REally>?? I didn't realise it was legal to keep dangerous species this way, also, does he have a artificial heat source?


yeah, aren't you meant to keep elapids in locked enclosures?


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

dihsmaj said:


> yeah, aren't you meant to keep elapids in locked enclosures?



In NSW dangerous snakes I thought had to be kept in locked enclosures INSIDE a locked room, thats why pits cannot be used


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## Notorious_Guf (Jan 18, 2012)

Do you eat the cow when it's still alive?


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## Red-Ink (Jan 18, 2012)

Jeannine said:


> *i still cant work out why its illegal to feed live food to snakes, after all i dont think they encounter many frozen rats/mice/lizards in the wild
> 
> yes i know the food could turn around and make a 'meal' out of the snake but dont they run the same risk in the wild? **shrugs**
> *



*Your probably right, lets see if we can get the governing bodies to put live bearded dragons on the legal black head pythons food list. Knob tailed geckoes to ackies anyone?*


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## notechistiger (Jan 18, 2012)

The fact that snakes do it in the wild is NOT a good argument. Do you also let predators into your reptile enclosures? Do you flood their enclosure and pour water on them to simulate storms? Do you make sure they're riddled with parasites?

No? Then stop trying to justify feeding animals live because "it happens in the wild".


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## K3nny (Jan 18, 2012)

actually for the record, as far as life insect goes, there are cases where crickets bite back because of either hunger or thirst, animal safety if you will is a risk when almost any type of life feed is involved.
ever been bitten by a mealworm? those things give nasty little pinches. Fact is living organisms are designed to survive, ergo (buzzword of the day) there would be always that unlikely chance of retaliation.

As far as why it's illegal? Pretty much summed up by most of the people here on the thread, + rodents and most other mammals are fluffy cute wittle things, while insects are icky, plain and simple.

The pain thing? What about feeder fish? Rarely there is such an issue with this as far as previous threads go, and not only for reptiles but also predatory fish keepers. They have backbones and a more complex nervous system associated with higher order creatures don't they?

Again it's a matter of double standards


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 18, 2012)

Yeah but if you try making an issue out of fish then the fishing industry would have to go also, and that aint going to happen lol


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## mysnakesau (Jan 18, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> just did search like you suggested still cant find valid points that back up your argument. you want me to kill mouse then freeze then defrost then feed over just plain feed and let nature do her thing. Can anyone explain how its cruel, im not doing it for enjoyment, the snakes are doing what comes naturally and why cant you feed your lizards dead bugs or is it you cant be bothered and there for its not cruel. if i was a mummy insect and you were feeding my baby insects i reckon id think its cruel



You don't have to freeze it. Feed fresh kill to your snake if you want.

In the wild, the snakes don't have others holding the mice prisoners, waiting for snake to come along and take it. The mouse at least has a chance to escape and hide, but not in your enclosure it doesn't.

Insects and fish are exempt from the 'no feeding live'. I guess that could be because the lizzies and bigger fish need to see the movement to know the insects are there.


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## Wrightpython (Jan 18, 2012)

how said my outdoor pits were not locked, padlocks are cheap and never had one escape (not that it would matter since we get heaps of wild browns and red bellies cruising threw all the time. )


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## mysnakesau (Jan 18, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> you sound like a lovely person to be around



So do you.


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## graffix (Jan 18, 2012)

Wouldn't feeding chilled crickets or woodies to lizards lower their core temperature ?


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## Bel03 (Jan 18, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> Bugs dont blink so it could be really slow and painful




What does blinking have to do with pain tolerance? :?

Will it make you feel better if i start poking eyes out of woodies & crickets before feeding my beardie? 

You have made me feel really bad now about live feeding these poor little bugs to my boy......i promise in future i shall say a little prayer for them before putting them in a salad. 

As for live feeding snakes......its been said a million times why it isnt a good idea, if you still chose to do so, there isnt much people here can do about it......but i wouldnt be raving about it or trying to justify it.......as has been said, once you put a snake in an enclosure, it is no longer wild, so to treat it that way would just be foolish. It would be like me saying 'well in the wild cats kill birds, lizards etc so it is ok for me to offer mine a live magpie or blue tounge for breakfast! :?


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## mysnakesau (Jan 18, 2012)

Wrightpython might have been a bug in his past life. Maybe that's why he's defending them. He knows what it is like for them, and to see the world out their eyes.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 18, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> how said my outdoor pits were not locked, padlocks are cheap and never had one escape (not that it would matter since we get heaps of wild browns and red bellies cruising threw all the time. )



But don't they by law have to be in a locked room also?


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## thepythonguy (Jan 18, 2012)

I've seen a wild snake take to frozen food after a lifetime of live food. So I don't believe that once the snake is started on live food it can't go back to frozen


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 18, 2012)

thepythonguy said:


> I've seen a wild snake take to frozen food after a lifetime of live food. So I don't believe that once the snake is started on live food it can't go back to frozen



Yes it most cases they will, but it can be anything from an instant transfer to a long drawn out process, and in some cases they will just refuse to eat anything but live again.
Each species will react differently, as will individual snakes, so you cannot really base your opinion on one snake.



Geckoman said:


> But don't they by law have to be in a locked room also?


Just found this
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/keeping-venomous-snakes-nsw-166002/


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## Jarden (Jan 18, 2012)

Go feed ur snakes live prey then...... and when they get older try change them onto large frozen rats GL With that one mate then once not eating u feed a live adult rat the rat bites ur snake then u have a niiiice big vet bill or a dead snake, Why question authoritys if you cant do any thing to change it, Rules are rules we don't make them we follow them, Its a privilidge not a right to keep reptiles here in Australia abide by the rules and every ones happy.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 18, 2012)

Jarden said:


> Go feed ur snakes live prey then...... and when they get older try change them onto large frozen rats GL With that one mate then once not eating u feed a live adult rat the rat bites ur snake then u have a niiiice big vet bill or a dead snake, Why question authoritys if you cant do any thing to change it, Rules are rules we don't make them we follow them, Its a privilidge not a right to keep reptiles here in Australia abide by the rules and every ones happy.



LOL by the sounds of it he doesn't exactly have much regard for the rules....


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## Bel03 (Jan 19, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> LOL by the sounds of it he doesn't exactly have much regard for the rules....




But he does care for the well being of our little bug friends.......he only wants some fair treatment for them, i mean, they dont blink afterall, & that is painful! :lol:


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## saximus (Jan 19, 2012)

I don't understand why people keep accusing the OP of trying to advocate live feeding? Granted he said he feeds live to one snake but I thought the original question was trying to ask why live vertebrates are not ok but inverts are? I think this point has been lost in accusations, misinterpretations and general dismissal of the original question because "they're just bugs". 
I'm no animal activist by any means but I'd certainly be interested to find out more about invertebrates' ability to feel pain and whether it is worth considering when live feeding.


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## Red-Ink (Jan 19, 2012)

saximus said:


> I don't understand why people keep accusing the OP of trying to advocate live feeding? Granted he said he feeds live to one snake but I thought the original question was trying to ask why live vertebrates are not ok but inverts are? I think this point has been lost in accusations, misinterpretations and general dismissal of the original question because "they're just bugs".
> I'm no animal activist by any means but I'd certainly be interested to find out more about invertebrates' ability to feel pain and whether it is worth considering when live feeding.



Just one of those thing on here Sax...

Although it was part of his original question.



> Just wondering if people feed live food to lizards and whether there is legalities with that. Are you allowed to feed live bugs and if so why arent you allowed to feed live mice etc ​





Bel711 said:


> But he does care for the well being of our little bug friends.......he only wants some fair treatment for them, i mean, they dont blink afterall, & that is painful! :lol:



Crap... my snakes and geckos are in constant pain....


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## Wonder_Woma (Jan 19, 2012)

Your right!! Venoumous snakes in NSW need to be in a locked room where NO ONE can acces the room... Just had to find this out as my partner is looking into keeping venomous snakes....


Geckoman said:


> But don't they by law have to be in a locked room also?


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## hulloosenator (Jan 19, 2012)

geeeeeezzz.................just feed it what it will eat...........just dont tell anyone about it and there is no problem..... keep it to yourself......gee whiz mate

almost everyone feeds live mice or rats at some stage. bang it on the head if you want to feed it a dead mouse.
there is nobody out there to police it , so , do what you have to do.

snakes dont go looking for a freezer and a bucket of hot water out the bush do they ?......they take nice live warm possums , bilbys , bushrats , wallabies , koalas, parrots , cats , baby birds in nests ,......the list goes on.


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## PhilK (Jan 19, 2012)

Vertebrates are protected by the animal cruelty act and invertebrates are not. That is why you can feed live inverts and cannot feed live verts. End of discussion.



hulloosenator said:


> snakes dont go looking for a freezer and a bucket of hot water out the bush do they ?......they take nice live warm possums , bilbys , bushrats , wallabies , koalas, parrots , cats , baby birds in nests ,......the list goes on.


Snakes don't go looking for an enclosure to live in, a water bowl to drink from or a light bulb to bask under either do they mate? They also get eaten by foxes, cats, eagles, goannas. Don't compare wild snakes to captive snakes unless you plan on releasing your captives - that is the height of stupidity.


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## hulloosenator (Jan 19, 2012)

yeah right...... !

hit a nerve there didnt it ............ and who gave you the right to end the discussion


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## PythonLegs (Jan 19, 2012)

No, not everyone feeds live at some stage, sorry. Poser halfwits always do, but not everyone.


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## Red-Ink (Jan 19, 2012)

PhilK said:


> Vertebrates are protected by the animal cruelty act and invertebrates are not. That is why you can feed live inverts and cannot feed live verts. End of discussion.
> .



Mentioned on page one.... sadly i think it was ignored.


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## Ally04 (Jan 19, 2012)

At least these posts are good for a laugh when I can't sleep  u can just tell by the titles of the posts if there's going to be a heated discussion inside lol


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## Darlyn (Jan 19, 2012)

hulloosenator said:


> they take nice live warm possums , bilbys , bushrats , wallabies , koalas, parrots , cats , baby birds in nests ,......the list goes on.



Koalas? Wow what snake eats Koalas, yuck!


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## PhilK (Jan 21, 2012)

hulloosenator said:


> yeah right...... !
> 
> hit a nerve there didnt it ............ and who gave you the right to end the discussion



No mate you certainly didn't - I was merely pointing out the stupidity of your argument.


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## Tildy (Jan 21, 2012)

Man this thread got funny! Certainly put a smile on my face. As far as the pain feeling thing goes, there is still debate in research circles about weather insects feel pain or not and no one is going to make legislation based on "that might possibly be the case" unless its going to make them alot of money or benefit them in some other way. Insects are low down on the government's worry list and weather they can feel pain or not is not proven conclusively. No one can debate that mammals feel pain because it's been proven in too many different mammals including humans. 

The reason live prey is more of a danger to your snake in captivity is that they can't get away from each other. In the wild the prey attacks for long enough to escape, then it runs. In captivity, where is it gonna run? You have put them in a sudden death cage match with only two possible scenarios, either rodent dies or snake dies. Flight is no longer possible so fight it must be. 

If these answers are unsatisfactory then become an entemologist, prove insects can feel pain and change the laws.


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## saximus (Jan 21, 2012)

Tildy I think that was the most reasoned, sensible post in this thread. It only took five pages to get there :/


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## Tildy (Jan 21, 2012)

Thank you. This thread has meandered more than somewhat, like I said, amusing tho.


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## Bedella (Jan 25, 2012)

Darlyn said:


> Koalas? Wow what snake eats Koalas, yuck!




Thy are like eucalyptus lollies


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## dihsmaj (Jan 25, 2012)

hulloosenator said:


> koalas


Koalas have no natural predators.


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