# Hybrids good or bad?



## morelia-mental (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi,

I have recently produced a clutch of hybrid gtp's x jaguar carpet Carpondro's, whats everyone's view on this?








One of the hatchlings


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## NathanBennett (Sep 13, 2011)

I'll be interested to see how they look after color change.
Good on you for trying something different.


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## Kimberlyann (Sep 13, 2011)

I like it, very different. its like a GTP with jungle patterns


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## dihsmaj (Sep 13, 2011)

Looks pretty.


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## frogboy77 (Sep 13, 2011)

love hybrids,so many variables to play with especially when you produce carp rondos and jagprondos, can't wait to see them pop up in australia in the years to come,
Jake


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 13, 2011)

Looks hot. So what exactly is the mix you have there? IE. what are the sire and dame bloodline?


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## morelia-mental (Sep 13, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Looks hot. So what exactly is the mix you have there? IE. what are the sire and dame bloodline?



The sire was a IJ Jaguar and the dame was a hormonal blue Sarong


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## Tassie97 (Sep 13, 2011)

Thats actualy pretty awesome


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## Jonno from ERD (Sep 13, 2011)

I think it's brilliant. The more that captive animals are obviously separate from wild animals, the better.


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## K3nny (Sep 13, 2011)

i like the color however the fact that its a man made hybrid puts me off alot, sorry

actually somehow reminds me of a B&Y jungle with thinner black markings

i'm curious though whats the behaviour like? more GTP like or more carpet?

*p.s. you will get some very strong opinions here, so just be aware of that


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## Waterrat (Sep 13, 2011)

Jonno from ERD said:


> I think it's brilliant. The more that captive animals are obviously separate from wild animals, the better.



That's an interesting statement Jonno, why is it better? 
I wonder how the wildlife authorities and their law would perceive this idea. Do you see it as a way to separate CB reptiles from "wildlife" and therefore get away from the grip of bureaucrats and the law as it is?


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## FusionMorelia (Sep 13, 2011)

yes they are good, they have there place and their here for good .

Nato


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## Red-Ink (Sep 13, 2011)

Interesting definitely... good or bad I don't know?


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## S&M Morelia (Sep 13, 2011)

If they are so good Nato, why don't you have any? 


I'm Pro Hybrid - to an extent.
About 75% of my animals are a sub-species hybrid.


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## Waterrat (Sep 13, 2011)

Some people would argue that crossed sub-species aren't actually hybrids because some people don't believe in sub-species. lol

NATO, you are probably right but never dismiss the possibility that one day someone may knock on your door saying "we are here to confiscate your illegal hybrids". It would be a sad day but we have seen worse in the past.


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## traceylee (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't know enough about them to say yay or nay..... but either way, your hatchie is very beautiful


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## Scleropages (Sep 13, 2011)

morelia-mental said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have recently produced a clutch of hybrid gtp's x jaguar carpet Carpondro's, whats everyone's view on this?
> 
> ...



I am a fan of hybridism , ( not only in snakes) , even though I don't keep any Hybrid reptiles , haha
My view is if it can be produced (man made or otherwise), then it is meant to be.
Cute little snake


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## longqi (Sep 13, 2011)

^^^^
Scientists have proved it is 'possible' to breed homo sapiens with chimpanzees and proboscis monkeys

So they can be produced
Would they also be 'meant to be'???


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## Trouble (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm absolutely against it ... If it doesn't happen in the wild, then who are we to play God??? 
I also believe that we should be keeping lines as clean as possible and the animals looking as natural as possible so we can help educate the public better, even if we aren't demonstrators! 

What happened to all this being taboo not even 2yrs ago??? What, because it's so hard to control, and you can't "frown apon" everyone you just go with it?! the phrase "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" comes to mind. 

Keep animals as clean as possible. Natural is a lot more beautiful than crosses any day. And before any of you tell me "if you were given one, you wouldn't complain". Yes, I would actually, and I would get rid of it. I don't want to be affiliated with them in any way. 

Just my opinion.


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## FAY (Sep 13, 2011)

What I would like to know is...if you cross a diamond with a bredli or a darwin.....how do you keep this animal? Diamonds are a cool climate snake and hate to be overheated, darwins like it warm?? Bredli are from Central Australia so....they like it reasonable warm during the day anyway.


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## Justdragons (Sep 13, 2011)

Im undecided, my dog is a cross breed and i love her to bits but i would never cross breed on purpose personally. love an animal for its pure natural form... your not god.. but on that note that snake will be awesome if it turns out to be a green and black jungle... It would be cool to do that with a gtp and a hypo bredli and get a green and orange jungle.Then i rekon you would see some chill colours.. lol see undecided...


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## alrightknight (Sep 13, 2011)

I wouldnt say its playing god, playing god, to me, is mixing genes through scientific processes such as artificial incemination. If they breed with out this help, then it is not impossible to happen in the wild just super highly unlikely considering localities etc. Of course when people start cross breeding species that have low survival rates and are known to suffer neuro problems I think it is wrong.

That being said this animal is nice looking, and I would love to see this after a colour change, if one happens that is.


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## S&M Morelia (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi Fay,
I have a number of hybrids, mostly Diamond influence, and one girl (my eldest) is a Diamond x Bredli.
I keep her in a massive 4x4x2 enclosure that has a hot spot of 34-35 deg and gradients away to where the cool spots are room temp.
Snakes aren't as dumb as some people make them out to be, and will choose a spot that suits them.
As long as you provide a temp gradient in the enclosure they will be fine.

Of course this is my experience and I am sure there are other ways people can keep them 

Cheers
Shaun.


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## Justdragons (Sep 13, 2011)

alrightknight said:


> I wouldnt say its playing god, playing god, to me, is mixing genes through scientific processes such as artificial incemination. If they breed with out this help, then it is not impossible to happen in the wild just super highly unlikely considering localities etc. Of course when people start cross breeding species that have low survival rates and are known to suffer neuro problems I think it is wrong.
> 
> That being said this animal is nice looking, and I would love to see this after a colour change, if one happens that is.



okay its not playing god i was being a little dramatic but i still dont wanna see all places end up like the states where its all morphs. is it true its hard to get a natural looking beardie there??


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## Bel03 (Sep 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^^
> Scientists have proved it is 'possible' to breed homo sapiens with chimpanzees and proboscis monkeys
> 
> So they can be produced
> Would they also be 'meant to be'???



:lol: Hilarious! I look at some people though & wonder if it is happening around us already!  I dont really know if im for or against hybrids.......ur hatchie is cute either way though.


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## Scleropages (Sep 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^^
> Scientists have proved it is 'possible' to breed homo sapiens with chimpanzees and proboscis monkeys
> 
> So they can be produced
> Would they also be 'meant to be'???



Yup.

Not that I want to be the one humpin monekys


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## alrightknight (Sep 13, 2011)

IVe heard its tough to get any "pure" reptiles in the US at all. Which is what I love about Australia that we still have such dedicated breeders working so hard to keep our animals all natural.


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## D3pro (Sep 13, 2011)

Whooooa..... love the jagpondros. Congratulations on the successful pairing.



scleropages said:


> yup.
> 
> Not that i want to be the one humpin monekys :d



lies


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## Waterrat (Sep 13, 2011)

Someone who doesn't keep reptiles was admiring my GTPs and asked; "is there anything nicer than these?" I replied, "I suppose there is, everyone wants blue, calico, high yellow, mite phase, etc., chondros in these days". She said "Gee, isn't nice green (as in colour) good enough anymore?"
I pondered over her question for a while.


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## Scleropages (Sep 13, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Whooooa..... love the jagpondros. Congratulations on the successful pairing.
> 
> 
> 
> lies



Hey that was only once! and I was drunk......... haha


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## dihsmaj (Sep 13, 2011)

FAY said:


> What I would like to know is...if you cross a diamond with a bredli or a darwin.....how do you keep this animal? Diamonds are a cool climate snake and hate to be overheated, darwins like it warm?? Bredli are from Central Australia so....they like it reasonable warm during the day anyway.



That's exactly what I was thinking...


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## alrightknight (Sep 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Someone who doesn't keep reptiles was admiring my GTPs and asked; "is there anything nicer than these?" I replied, "I suppose there is, everyone wants blue, calico, high yellow, mite phase, etc., chondros in these days". She said "Gee, isn't nice green (as in colour) good enough anymore?"
> I pondered over her question for a while.



I agree with this, I have a few friends that know nothing about snakes but when I bring it up , and look at pictures, the result is the same everytime "I like the bright green ones, are you going to get one?."


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## NathanBennett (Sep 13, 2011)

My wife and I breed dogs, and its interesting to know that many species actually were created using cross breeding of other breeds. For example, a Doberman was created using Greyhound, Blue Great Dane among others. 
I'm sure that if someone was to see my champion show winning Dobe, no one would say that she is not beautiful. 
Never know, in years to come, these snakes may become known as a highly prized and exclusive line.
Just my opinion


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## ingie (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi Nathan, domestic dogs are all the same species. The different breeds are just different 'mutations' like the differences between a black and white jungle and a black and gold one, only it has been taken further than that with selective breeding/line breeding over time.


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## NathanBennett (Sep 13, 2011)

Yes. Before 1909, there was no such thing as a Doberman. I'm just saying that creating a new mutation has to start somewhere.


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## longqi (Sep 13, 2011)

The difference is that there is only one genetic species of dog
Even though they are all the same species there are still genetic problems with some of them

Knowing that some species and sub species of reptiles would never interbreed in the wild, do we have the right to force them to breed in captivity, knowing full well that the best colour genes often produce bad genetic defects?


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## Scalez108 (Sep 13, 2011)

looks good!


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## S&M Morelia (Sep 13, 2011)

But there has been a PhD paper written on the dna of the morelia spilota subspecies that says that the only ones different are imbracata & bredli. The rest are the same genetically.


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## Morgan_dragon (Sep 13, 2011)

alrightknight said:


> IVe heard its tough to get any "pure" reptiles in the US at all. Which is what I love about Australia that we still have such dedicated breeders working so hard to keep our animals all natural.



Why can we not have a mix of both? 

Hybrids have their place and some are absolutely stunning animals. If we are not losing our natural animals then what is the problem? Considering I keep pure Aussie GTP's - alot from Michael on the way and every one of our GTP's we can trace the lineage of and are sure they are pure Aussie. I also have Albino Darwins and Olives, an RPM and what we think is an actual coastal carpet but unsure? They are all beautiful in their own way and all have a place both in our home and our hearts...

Everyone is entitled to make their own choices....


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## Fantazmic (Sep 13, 2011)

Cross breeding can give you an instant result....but what about the less desirable looking ones ?? and where do you go next ?? 

At least with pure lines it is all pretty straightforward


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## Morgan_dragon (Sep 13, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Someone who doesn't keep reptiles was admiring my GTPs and asked; "is there anything nicer than these?" I replied, "I suppose there is, everyone wants blue, calico, high yellow, mite phase, etc., chondros in these days". She said "Gee, isn't nice green (as in colour) good enough anymore?"
> I pondered over her question for a while.



You also had a young lady bring her husband up there not long ago to pick him out a birthday present.....although she wasn't a big fan of snakes she feel in love with your beautiful GTP's and not only brought more then she intended, she fell in love with GTP's and has (hopefully) overcome most of her fear of snakes in general. A pure Aussie GTP is a very beautiful sight to behold in real life....

Thanks Michael


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## S&M Morelia (Sep 13, 2011)

Fantazmic said:


> Cross breeding can give you an instant result....but what about the less desirable looking ones ?? and where do you go next ?? At least with pure lines it is all pretty straightforward


Surely you don't really believe that?Have you seen a clutch of coastals? If you have, you'd have seen how much variety is within a clutch.When someone posts up a jungle they bred which looks amazing, but they won't post a pic of its sibling that is on the opposite end of the scale.


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## Schnecke (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm on the fence. There are some stunning Jags/Morphs/New "mixes" and I won't take away the hard work that people do to produce them, even if I'm a fan of more pure lines, I appreciate all the hard work people do in both directions.


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## r3ptilian (Sep 13, 2011)

Bad, they dont even sound like a real car.
Oh you mean cross-breeding, its gonna happen to the reptile industry here like it has overseas so not much can be done about it.


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## ramzee86 (Sep 14, 2011)

I think it loooks amazing, and is definitely something special!!

Can I ask though, would this be legal in aus? -Vic nsw or qld in particular?


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## cwebb (Sep 14, 2011)

Trouble said:


> I'm absolutely against it ... If it doesn't happen in the wild, then who are we to play God???
> I also believe that we should be keeping lines as clean as possible and the animals looking as natural as possible so we can help educate the public better, even if we aren't demonstrators!
> 
> What happened to all this being taboo not even 2yrs ago??? What, because it's so hard to control, and you can't "frown apon" everyone you just go with it?! the phrase "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" comes to mind.
> ...



so does this mean you are also against IVF in humans?


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## morelia-mental (Sep 14, 2011)

In all honesty this pairing was accidental, the male jaguar was put in with a pair of gtp's to encourage the male gtp. Only the male gtp took a back seat and let the jaguar take control of the matter.
I didnt do any temperature changing male switching or any of the other methods to produce hybrids, this was a straight forward mating. I aim to produce pure gtp's but must say these hatchlings are something different.

Enjoying all your replys by the way


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## Snake_Whisperer (Sep 14, 2011)

cwebb said:


> so does this mean you are also against IVF in humans?



Oh SNAP! Single best comeback of September! Well done! I guess keeping animals in boxes is playing Gawd too? Or isn't it?


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

Morgan_dragon said:


> You also had a young lady bring her husband up there not long ago to pick him out a birthday present.....although she wasn't a big fan of snakes she feel in love with your beautiful GTP's and not only brought more then she intended, she fell in love with GTP's and has (hopefully) overcome most of her fear of snakes in general. A pure Aussie GTP is a very beautiful sight to behold in real life....
> 
> Thanks Michael



I thought it was funny, after telling you how placid they are, the juvenile had a shot at my hand as soon as took off the lid. How embarrassing. :lol:


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## DazTopEndPythons (Sep 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I thought it was funny, after telling you how placid they are, the juvenile had a shot at my hand as soon as took off the lid. How embarrassing. :lol:


not at all , and cant wait to get the new guys , wish the authorities would pull their fingers out and get the import paperwork back to us


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

Sure, there is a place for both; natural and "man-made" hybrids and I am personally not or against it as long as the hybridising is kept at low key. It's illegal and that should always be on the mind of the hybrid breeders - the less they talk about it ...... post about it on forums, etc., the better. Why?

Currently, there is a very live topic being discussed about bringing the Oenpelli python into captivity and as we know, the wildlife agencies are making it most difficult, blocking it whichever way they can. What's stopping them from saying "no, we won't let them into the hobby because you will turn them into some morph or hybrid". Could you blame them?

I would like to see the day when pure native breeders will be allowed to take a few specimens from the wild to enrich the genetic pool in their collections or even other species, such as locality specific Morelia. If hybridising species and morphing proliferates in the hobby, my hope will become a dream and people like me will have to distance ourselves from the "hobby" and form some sort of new group. I don't want things to go that way but .......


Cheers
Michael


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## Red-Ink (Sep 14, 2011)

ramzee86 said:


> I think it loooks amazing, and is definitely something special!!
> 
> Can I ask though, would this be legal in aus? -Vic nsw or qld in particular?



Sub-species mating is legal in Vic as there's _M. bredli_, _M. spilota spilota_, _M. viridis, _the rest are _M. spilota variegata _on license. So technically a coastal x jungle is legal or an inland x darwin.


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## Bushman (Sep 14, 2011)

Well said Michael. We have similar sentiments, although I'm strongly against hybrids. 
I think it's a real shame that some hobbyists bastardize their animals. 
As you suggest Michael, this issue essentially separates hobbyists from herpers. I suppose it depends on where you are coming from. Some people just want a pretty pet and others have a deep and profound understanding and respect for the integrity of our native wildlife.


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## Trouble (Sep 14, 2011)

cwebb said:


> so does this mean you are also against IVF in humans?



Yes, it does ... and I can say that because I know I will need IVF to have children some day. If you're not meant to reproduce, there is a reason why. Why push your luck? No offence to all the great parents out there who have done it, a few of my close friends have had to go through IVF, I just think that if your body can't naturally repoduce, then that's natures way of keeping out the weak-links in the gene pool. (pitty it doesn't work for some of the bogans :lol: ) 

*grabs popcorn and dons fire suit*


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## moosenoose (Sep 14, 2011)

The thing that bugs me about Wildlife authorities kicking up a stink about something like this is they never seem to be out protecting snakes from the ones who hate them, but rather prosecuting the ones who love them. 

Personally I think the animal looks great, and as long as they are being sold with the buyer fully aware of what they are purchasing I see no problem. There's designer everything out there these days, this is no different.


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> There's designer everything out there these days, this is no different.



Most of the "designer everything" is not protected by law and illegal to create. That's the difference.


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## Morgan_dragon (Sep 14, 2011)

Trouble said:


> Yes, it does ... and I can say that because I know I will need IVF to have children some day. If you're not meant to reproduce, there is a reason why. Why push your luck? No offence to all the great parents out there who have done it, a few of my close friends have had to go through IVF, I just think that if your body can't naturally repoduce, then that's natures way of keeping out the weak-links in the gene pool. (pitty it doesn't work for some of the bogans :lol: )
> 
> *grabs popcorn and dons fire suit*




OOOHHHH oooowww this is going to get some interesting comments....

What about those who have already had a child but through ovarian cancer or something can no longer have another one? Their bodies were originally able to produce but they will need IVF to have any further children?

Although I think we have strayed off topic.

Will be nice to see how this little one develops and if it changes colour/has any problems when its older etc.



Waterrat said:


> Most of the "designer everything" is not protected by law and illegal to create. That's the difference.



OK have heard this a few times now. Is this little one illegal and if so why? or is it people just don't like the x/morph however you want to explain it? 

Does that mean my little RPM Het is also illegal?


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## Tinky (Sep 14, 2011)

As posted in the in a thread on the same topic in May:

Dog breeders have been corssing lines for years.

hell they even market such specifially, ie Labradoodles

Maybe we need some smancy cross breed names. . . . 

Anyone for a Diamondoodle or "Dime-Costa"

Just stiring the pot. . .​


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## Justdragons (Sep 14, 2011)

Rpm?? sorry for my ignorance


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## -Katana- (Sep 14, 2011)

While I won't brow beat those who choose to own one I would never own one myself, breed them or sell any animals to people intending to create hybrids with them.


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## longqi (Sep 14, 2011)

S&M Morelia said:


> Surely you don't really believe that?Have you seen a clutch of coastals? If you have, you'd have seen how much variety is within a clutch.When someone posts up a jungle they bred which looks amazing, but they won't post a pic of its sibling that is on the opposite end of the scale.



Now this is a pretty dangerous argument for any hybrid breeder to use
Hybrids are bred for colour/pattern........ full stop
Coastals are bred to be coastals..... full stop

If I was to buy a Hybrid I would want good colour/pattern
With a coastal I couldnt care less as it is simply a coastal and lovely to me anyway

But no-one will want to buy an ugly hybrid
So while a pure coastal of any description will always find a market; a bad hybrid is just a waste of space, and as you so rightly pointed out; there are usually more bad ones than good ones

Just idle curiousity but what do you do with the poorly coloured hybrids that hatch in your clutches
Over here they just bag them or use them as food for other reps


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## cwebb (Sep 14, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> Oh SNAP! Single best comeback of September! Well done! I guess keeping animals in boxes is playing Gawd too? Or isn't it?



im a state debater, i miss it haha.


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## S&M Morelia (Sep 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> Hybrids are bred for colour/pattern........ full stop
> Coastals are bred to be coastals..... full stop
> 
> If I was to buy a Hybrid I would want good colour/pattern
> ...



Very true, but when you think about it, people buy an animal for a couple of reasons and this applies for both pure and hybrid species.
1. They look for someone selling the animals they are after.
2. They ask for pictures of what is available.
3. They select the one that _THEY_ think is good looking.

So everyone is selecting the best looking ones to start with. This is not always the case, but they then try and find another animals that would compliment the original's colours/patterns when bred together.
Really anyone who breeds either wants to do it for experience or they want to produce more colourful (aka better) versions of their species they keep.

And where did I "rightly pointed out" that there are more bad ones than good ones?
Not one post by myself has stated anywhere that there is more of one than the other.
I said there is a scale, like in all clutches.



longqi said:


> Just idle curiousity but what do you do with the poorly coloured hybrids that hatch in your clutches
> Over here they just bag them or use them as food for other reps


Well considering I haven't bred any hybrids I cannot comment on that.
I own a number, but haven't bred any.


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## moosenoose (Sep 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Most of the "designer everything" is not protected by law and illegal to create. That's the difference.



The same law makers that couldn't give a crap about snakes in general? They're a bunch of toothless tigers. I find it strange how they can legislate about making something illegal (in some States that is) with no rhyme or reason behind it. It's a joke, and nobody takes it seriously anyway.


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

That's good to have a tough attitude. 
Many moons ago, 9 officers from different sections of the law enforcement knocked on my door at 5am, went though my house like a cyclone, left with my possessions .... when I met them again in the Court, *I did take them seriously*.
I hope you won't have to learn respect in the same way.


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## longqi (Sep 14, 2011)

S&M Morelia said:


> Very true, but when you think about it, people buy an animal for a couple of reasons and this applies for both pure and hybrid species.
> 1. They look for someone selling the animals they are after.
> 2. They ask for pictures of what is available.
> 3. They select the one that _THEY_ think is good looking.
> ...



I must apologise for stating 'As you so rightly pointed out', or that you said there is a scale
Sorry; an inference is not a statement



> Surely you don't really believe that?Have you seen a clutch of coastals? If you have, you'd have seen how much variety is within a clutch.When someone posts up a jungle they bred which looks amazing, but they won't post a pic of its sibling that is on the opposite end of the scale.


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## dihsmaj (Sep 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> That's good to have a tough attitude.
> Many moons ago, 9 officers from different sections of the law enforcement knocked on my door at 5am, went though my house like a cyclone, left with my possessions .... when I met them again in the Court, *I did take them seriously*.
> I hope you won't have to learn respect in the same way.


Wait... why did they take your possessions?


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## Red-Ink (Sep 14, 2011)

alrightknight said:


> IVe heard its tough to get any "pure" reptiles in the US at all. Which is what I love about Australia that we still have such dedicated breeders working so hard to keep our animals all natural.



Depends what species... they get a lot of WC species brought in every year so in that respect it's pretty spot on in "purity" and locality even.


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

Snakeluvver3 said:


> Wait... why did they take your possessions?



That's what they do. That time they took my filing cabinet full of stuff, now days they take you computer.


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## Red-Ink (Sep 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> That's what they do. That time they took my filing cabinet full of stuff, now days they take you computer.



Did you get your stuff back?


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

Eventually. They didn't do any good, all charges were dropped. They forgot that they gave me a permit to collect 100 tiger snakes and misidentified 2 of the tigers as Eastern browns. It was a real laugh in the Court, all over in 5 minutes, the Magistrate said he "I need a tea break after this".


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## moosenoose (Sep 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Eventually. They didn't do any good, all charges were dropped. They forgot that they gave me a permit to collect 100 tiger snakes and misidentified 2 of the tigers as Eastern browns. It was a real laugh in the Court, all over in 5 minutes, the Magistrate said he "I need a tea break after this".



My point exactly. Do these people even know what they're dealing with half the time? Sounds like incompetence can be added to that list as well. I think they're the ones walking tough, talking tough and using bully-boy tactics, but again doing nothing for general wildlife protection other than targeting those who are legally registered and generally trying to do the right thing. They treat us like a bunch of cash cows.


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## Raddy318 (Sep 14, 2011)

they look awsome! i want one haha


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## Retic (Sep 14, 2011)

That is a stunning looking snake, it will be very interesting to see how they progress colour wise. I am looking forward to working with these myself. Well done. 



morelia-mental said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have recently produced a clutch of hybrid gtp's x jaguar carpet Carpondro's, whats everyone's view on this?
> 
> ...



I always laugh when people talk about not being able to get pure Australian species overseas, as you say even exact locality would be known in many cases. 



Red-Ink said:


> Depends what species... they get a lot of WC species brought in every year so in that respect it's pretty spot on in "purity" and locality even.


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## mattyg (Sep 14, 2011)

done it with dogs why not do it with snakes? we dont play god we select the few that have positive traits and breed them to make more lovely snakeys for us


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## alrightknight (Sep 14, 2011)

boa said:


> I always laugh when people talk about not being able to get pure Australian species overseas, as you say even exact locality would be known in many cases.



No one has said its not possible just tough. Which with american herpers ive talked to they have said its tough to find Australian species that aren't jags/cross breeds.


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

mattyg said:


> done it with dogs why not do it with snakes? we dont play god we select the few that have positive traits and breed them to make more lovely snakeys for us



Is it you in your avatar?


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## roobz (Sep 14, 2011)

*Why not?*

We are not keeping our pet snakes for conservation. In my respectful opinion the only reason that bloodlines play a part in a snake's heritage is health and/or reproductive ability, but there are many people who have snakes that will never breed them. I understand that many people on this site are snake breeders but the lineage of a captive carpet snake has no more relevance to the genetic identity of the breed than a corgi does to a timber wolf. As I understand it DNA testing can differentiate between Australian and foreign GTP's- why not hybrids?


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## alrightknight (Sep 14, 2011)

roobz said:


> We are not keeping our pet snakes for conservation. In my respectful opinion the only reason that bloodlines play a part in a snake's heritage is health and/or reproductive ability, but there are many people who have snakes that will never breed them. I understand that many people on this site are snake breeders but the lineage of a captive carpet snake has no more relevance to the genetic identity of the breed than a corgi does to a timber wolf. As I understand it DNA testing can differentiate between Australian and foreign GTP's- why not hybrids?


 I like to think conservation though captive propagation is ggood. Think If we keep provatley bred reptiles we are taking the pressure of the wildlife through illegal collection.


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## Cockney_Red (Sep 14, 2011)

Groundhog day........................................................."NO"


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## Waterrat (Sep 14, 2011)

roobz said:


> We are not keeping our pet snakes for conservation. In my respectful opinion the only reason that bloodlines play a part in a snake's heritage is health and/or reproductive ability, but there are many people who have snakes that will never breed them. I understand that many people on this site are snake breeders but the lineage of a captive carpet snake has no more relevance to the genetic identity of the breed than a corgi does to a timber wolf. As I understand it DNA testing can differentiate between Australian and foreign GTP's- why not hybrids?



I respect your opinion. Just one thing - you have forgotten the legality of cross breeding. You pet snake is still considered to be a "wildlife" whether you like it or not.


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## roobz (Sep 14, 2011)

The question was not whether it was legal to own them, it was if they were good, or bad. Marijuana is illegal, but many people enjoy smoking it. I do not think it is "bad".


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## Southside Morelia (Sep 14, 2011)

morelia-mental said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have recently produced a clutch of hybrid gtp's x jaguar carpet Carpondro's, whats everyone's view on this?
> 
> ...



What do we think?...Ummm thats an ugly animal.

Of course that was a joke and its a cracker for sure and as Ash has said, it will be great to see how that little stunner colours up. Can you keep us posted as I would love to see how the Chondro genes influence its progressive colour.
Beautiful at this age none the less...well done.
Any pics of the parents?


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## Cockney_Red (Sep 14, 2011)

roobz said:


> The question was not whether it was legal to own them, it was if they were good, or bad. Marijuana is illegal, but many people enjoy smoking it. I do not think it is "bad".


It is bad, it makes you very hungry and talk cow manure....


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## roobz (Sep 14, 2011)

Oh, by the way, I keep turtles and frogs, and have no snakes. I was told in high school biology that if an animal produced fertile young it was not considered a different species. Does this still apply?


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## RickLeekong (Sep 15, 2011)

Im a purist, i agree they are beautiful ''hybrids'' but in the long term scheme of things we should focus on preserving species, its meddlesome to fool around with this unless its monitored and each hybrid crossing is declared and this info is passed onto the buyer. I indeed agree with selective breeding amongst a species, but hybridising, without monitoring, we could let pure lines slip away unnoticed.


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## morelia-mental (Sep 15, 2011)

This is the dame





The sire is the jag in this picture





The dame again showing her Gravid colouring


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## moosenoose (Sep 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I respect your opinion. Just one thing - you have forgotten the legality of cross breeding. You pet snake is still considered to be a "wildlife" whether you like it or not.


 
The other thing you also need to keep in mind is that *none* of your animals are in fact your property. You just pay for the right to keep them (much like a person’s privilege in being allowed to drive a car). Hence the reason authorities can interfere, confiscate and scrutinize what hobbyists keep at their discretion.

What I find bothersome is that these same officials seem more focused on hobbyists than conservation in general. Why? Because we’re easy targets and we bring in revenue. 

I spent 6 months casually chasing up an offense in regards to killing wildlife during the height of the Queensland flooding. It was blatant disregard to wildlife with what these perpetrators were doing, illegal, and in addition to that they had committed firearms offenses. The end result: a slap on the wrist because they were “dreaded” snakes. Had they been shooting koalas or some other soft and cuddly Australian, I honestly believe they’d have been crucified for it. It just further enhances the double standards portrayed in relation to reptiles.

There seems to be laws (legal loopholes) protecting the general public which pretty much allows them to go hell for leather in regards to killing snakes without much consequence, and another law for those keep, breed and show some interest in conservation and awareness to be prosecuted if they put a hair out of place because supposedly “we should know better”.

So the point of all of this is why can’t hobbyists breed hybrids? Or why shouldn’t they? Some States don’t mind, whereas others do. The main point is that hybrids of a certain breed are infertile once the divide between certain species becomes too great, so what’s the issue? We’ve got cats, dogs, foxes , toads, carp and a zillion other problems out there that are breeding their way around the country, but we are focusing on this?? Surely there are better things for the authorities to be doing with their time than this? Respectfully


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## RickLeekong (Sep 15, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> The other thing you also need to keep in mind is that *none* of your animals are in fact your property. You just pay for the right to keep them (much like a person’s privilege in being allowed to drive a car). Hence the reason authorities can interfere, confiscate and scrutinize what hobbyists keep at their discretion.
> 
> What I find bothersome is that these same officials seem more focused on hobbyists than conservation in general. Why? Because we’re easy targets and we bring in revenue.
> 
> ...


agreed


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## graphitebeans (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm not sure if this is part of the issue, but isn't it difficult to add more animals to the captive gene pool? Do a lot of the amateur breeders breed animals from the same bloodline? I would assume that inbreeding would be an issue for the small-scale breeders. 
I'm a purist when it comes to Aussie pythons - they are so amazing and diverse without our help.
Your snake is truly beautiful, probably because this was an accidental crossing. However I don't agree with forcing these animals to cross-breed. The dame obviously thought that the sire was a better choice in this situation. That's part of natural selection. If we only provide pairings that we think should breed we are effectively playing god with the offspring (which seems to be one of the big arguments against hybridism) and we won't necessarily end up with optimal pairings. It makes the water muddy, because obviously when given the choice of the same-species male or a male of another species she chose the other species male. We don't have any idea why she did that, but there must have been something unsatisfactory about the male she was supposed to be breeding with, otherwise she would have chosen him.
I'm rambling now, so I'm going to shut up.
I hope that made sense :lol:


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## Morgan_dragon (Sep 15, 2011)

justdragons said:


> Rpm?? sorry for my ignorance



Reduced Pattern Morph...I think they are similar/same as Jags? (please dont slam my ignorance here if I'm wrong, still on a massive learning curve about alot of our snakes).


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## Waterrat (Sep 15, 2011)

Reduced pattern can be achieved by selective breeding. Jags have the jag gene. (you better not ask where it came from LOL)


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## Morgan_dragon (Sep 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Reduced pattern can be achieved by selective breeding. Jags have the jag gene. (you better not ask where it came from LOL)



I actually did lol, I know the gene pool of my little guy but have no clue as to the jags....


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## nervous (Sep 15, 2011)

graphitebeans said:


> I'm a purist when it comes to Aussie pythons - they are so amazing and diverse without our help.
> Your snake is truly beautiful, probably because this was an accidental crossing. However I don't agree with forcing these animals to cross-breed. The dame obviously thought that the sire was a better choice in this situation. That's part of natural selection. If we only provide pairings that we think should breed we are effectively playing god with the offspring (which seems to be one of the big arguments against hybridism) and we won't necessarily end up with optimal pairings.



i dont understand why some ppl are suggesting the breeder is playing "GOD"? if that is the case then pretty much every breeder is play "GOD" whether they are hybrids, crosses or pure! we are choosing the mate for our pythons or pets in general to breed with! so to say that a hybrid breeder is playing "GOD" you most well say that even purist breeders are playing "GOD" as they themselves choose who there pythons breed to.


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## carterd (Sep 15, 2011)

Ben you are correct with your thinking. Now take playing "GOD"/Man out of the picture, what are you left with.

Does everyone think they will stay yellow, or turn Green.


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## nervous (Sep 15, 2011)

carterd said:


> Ben you are correct with your thinking. Now take playing "GOD"/Man out of the picture, what are you left with.



well you are left with a reptile, a snake, a python and the most important... a pet. 

o forgot to say that this jagpondro is a cracker hatchling... fingers x it stays that way, but based on the other carpondros etc.. i think a color change will be pending in the near future.


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## graphitebeans (Sep 15, 2011)

My point with the god comment was that any artificial pairing - that is any pairing occurring as a result of captive breeding and outside the 'natural' scheme of things - can be considered "playing god".
Natural selection only works if there's a selection.


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## Waterrat (Sep 15, 2011)

Gee, you made my day.
Everybody, please address me as "God" from now on. Mr. God would be fine too. Mods, can you change my user name to God? I'll be changing my avatar tomorrow.

Seriously, natural selection is one thing, this hobby is another, responsibility and integrity towards wildlife is yet another, and there is also the law. Did I forget ethics? After this long sentence, I have to tell you - I am not a purist (just because I breed natives) ..... but I love this God title, it's got a ring to it.


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## -Katana- (Sep 15, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Gee, you made my day.
> Everybody, please address me as "God" from now on. Mr. God would be fine too. Mods, can you change my user name to God? I'll be changing my avatar tomorrow.
> 
> Seriously, natural selection is one thing, this hobby is another, responsibility and integrity towards wildlife is yet another, and there is also the law. Did I forget ethics? After this long sentence, I have to tell you - I am not a purist (just because I breed natives) ..... but I love this God title, it's got a ring to it.



Pleased ta meat ya Mr.God!

ummm...Mr. God, are ya the vengeful, wrathful god needing regular virgin sacrifices lest you unleash plague and pestilence upon the earth?

Sorry...I couldn't find any virgins to sacrifice.
I was wondering if a buck fifty in change and all my pocket lint will do and we agree that you wipe out New Zealand instead...m'kay?


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## graphitebeans (Sep 16, 2011)

Dude, I just thought the "god " argument was dumb and was trying to illustrate that. You really took it the wrong way and I'm sorry for that. 
I find your arguments to be quite persuasive.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, and I will forevermore refer to you by your newly requested title.
Amen.


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## Waterrat (Sep 16, 2011)

graphitebeans said:


> Dude, I just thought the "god " argument was dumb and was trying to illustrate that. You really took it the wrong way and I'm sorry for that.
> I find your arguments to be quite persuasive.
> Sorry for the misunderstanding, and I will forevermore refer to you by your newly requested title.
> Amen.



Pity you didn't see any humor in it Dode.

God


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## graphitebeans (Sep 16, 2011)

Well now I just feel dumb.
*sigh* Thanks God.
:lol:


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## Kristy_07 (Sep 18, 2011)

Amazing! Even 12mths ago, the OP would have been shot down in FLAMES, and the thread possibly locked  

I'm still kind of sitting on the fence about hybrids: I certainly understand the conservation-oriented view, and the need to keep pure lines and localities etc. But, I'm probably not totally convinced that there can't be a middle ground, and room for both the purists, and the comtemporary RESPONSIBLE breeders producing hybrids, also. Or maybe I'm just being wishy washy and don't want to get shot down, myself :lol:

The amount of hatchies becoming available on the market, I think, is a concern. Common animals are becoming extremely hard to move, and I've heard of plenty of people this year who are releasing coastals and beardy bubs simply because they can't give them away. Okay, so, releasing some coastals into some Brissy scrubland probably isn't the worst thing in the world. But, when the difficulty of selling hatchies spreads to the hybrids breeders, as well, and they are also tempted to release rather than euth or keep until rehoming, then I can see the issues arising. That said, I knew of a crapload of exotics floating around this season, too, so I guess all these problems are kind of inevitable. Unfortunately. 

Thanks for the pics, anyway, OP. I'd be keen to see them once they change colour, too. 

Love the new nickname Mr. God  I think I'll call you Goddles for short, okay?


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## Waterrat (Sep 18, 2011)

Kristy_07 said:


> Love the new nickname Mr. God  I think I'll call you Goddles for short, okay?



Yah, much more appropriate.
Cross-breeding has been happening, is happening and will be happening no matter what anybody says (including the law). It's probably never going to be a big issue because cross-breeding species is not as easy as it sounds and not every breeder would indulge in such. I think the over-breeding of common species with high fecundity is going to a much bigger problem in the near future.
As for releasing to the wild, it's certainly not a recommended by ecologists but considering that about one hatchling in 10 (if that) will survive, the rest will become prey for other animals or die of starvation, no big deal.

Godless


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## Wally (Sep 18, 2011)

Kristy_07 said:


> Amazing! Even 12mths ago, the OP would have been shot down in FLAMES, and the thread possibly locked



I think people are resigned to the fact it's happening, infractions most likely played their part too.

Still not for me, and my opinion will not change.

Good to see you back Kristy.


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## Rainbow-Serpent (Sep 19, 2011)

I think the hatchie in the photo you posted is a damn good looking little fellow! It'll be interesting to see how he looks as his colour changes


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## longqi (Sep 20, 2011)

Carpondros are different to what most Aussie breeders will be trying for

But look at the pure lines of say Jungles that are being produced now
Spectacular animals without any chance of Neuro
Some of these would be winners at any show anywhere on Earth

Virtually every Jag breeder overseas uses jungles to get the High Yellow effect
Yet we already had the best Jungles by a country mile

Because some idiot smuggled jags into Australia even these magnificent Jungles are being questioned as to the parentage and that is the worst part of all this


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## Morelia4life (Sep 21, 2011)

It is sad that I see Australia becoming just like the United States. Some people think that over here in the U.S. that it is a joke that we can't find pure animals?? Over here in the U.S., people have bred ball pythons to I.J. carpets, ball pythons to womas, ball pythons to burmese pythons, burmese pythons to reticulated pythons, reticulated pythons to ball pythons, ball pythons to blood pythons, king snakes to corn snakes, corn snakes to milk snakes, and so on and so on. If you go to any show, unless it is one of the top breeders of Morelia in the world, the snake you buy will not be a pure Jungle or Coastal. We have people buying carpet pythons and then coming on the forums asking us what kind of carpet python it is and no body knows because it is mixed back and forth so much. 

We had someone selling a coastal mix carpet for $1,000 a while back and claiming it was a new morph.... right.... 

If you guys want hybrids and everything else, that is fine... just be prepared for what is to come. When the amazing jungles start to get crossed with jags and carpondros and this and that and soon you don't know what you have, don't get upset.

kingsnake.com Classifieds: 2009 Striped Carpet Python - Hamilton Line

This is just one ex.. Chris Behof is a very well known Morelia breeder over here and he even thought that this carpet was pure jungle but it isn't. 
kingsnake.com Classifieds: 2007 Male Carpall

Another one. A I.J. carpet over here is like $200. A normal ball python is like $20. Breed both together and you get a $3,000 snake?? No. To me, that snake is ugly as hell.


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## FusionMorelia (Sep 21, 2011)

you either roll with progression or it rolls over you,
just like cars,dogs,humans,art and just like anything, a cross or hybrid can and will thrive 
but with all some will appear ugly to some so they dont buy it,or talk to it or pet it,
other will however love it and go all out to get it, i guess my point is that there is 
and always will be a market for these animals and if you dont like them, dont get one.......

Nato


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## Waterrat (Sep 21, 2011)

Morelia4life said:


> If you guys want hybrids and everything else, that is fine... just be prepared for what is to come. When the amazing jungles start to get crossed with jags and carpondros and this and that and soon you don't know what you have, don't get upset.



We already have that situation with GTPs. We call them Biak, Sorong, this and that but the fact is, they were locality cross-bred a long time ago in a South Asian snake farm before they reached our shores and no one knows what they are other that "GTPs." 
It would be a great step forward if all the pure locality line breeders (I have no idea how many there are) would identify themselves and advertise their snakes as such. I can see a lot of merit in that. We desperately need to form an association of that kind before it's too late (like in the US).


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## Bushman (Sep 21, 2011)

Well said Longqi and that's a brilliant idea Michael. 
We have some of the finest, most fascinating and unique reptiles in the world! Just as they are.
I really don't understand why some people don't realize this! 


longqi said:


> ...
> But look at the pure lines of say Jungles that are being produced now
> Spectacular animals without any chance of Neuro
> Some of these would be winners at any show anywhere on Earth
> ...


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## nervous (Sep 21, 2011)

Bushman said:


> Well said Longqi and that's a brilliant idea Michael.
> We have some of the finest, most fascinating and unique reptiles in the world! Just as they are.
> I really don't understand why some people don't realize this!



that's your opinion, other people are into different things etc... nobody can force an opinion on you! so for you its pure locality's, for others its the excitement that a morph can bring or the results a hybrid can create. everyone is different!


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## Waterrat (Sep 21, 2011)

nervous said:


> that's your opinion, other people are into different things etc... nobody can force an opinion on you! so for you its pure locality's, for others its the excitement that a morph can bring or the results a hybrid can create. everyone is different!



No one is denying it or trying to change the course. What I said, and Bushman agreed, is - in order to protect pure Australian reptiles in captivity, we need to form a specialized group.
If people with other interests, e.g. morphing and cross-breeding want to do the same or not to bother, it's fine with the rest of us. Fair enough?


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## zuesowns (Sep 21, 2011)

I like the look of hybrids, they are really attractive which is why I can see why people like them.

I'd still rather keep a 'plain old' native Australian GTP, just my opinion.


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## nervous (Sep 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> No one is denying it or trying to change the course. What I said, and Bushman agreed, is - in order to protect pure Australian reptiles in captivity, we need to form a specialized group.
> If people with other interests, e.g. morphing and cross-breeding want to do the same or not to bother, it's fine with the rest of us. Fair enough?



i was referring to this comment by bushman


> We have some of the finest, most fascinating and unique reptiles in the world! Just as they are. I really don't understand why some people don't realize this!


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## pharskie (Sep 21, 2011)

Hybrid Haven.net &bull; View topic - 75% GTP X Carpet carpondro

hmmmmmmm, im on the fence also on this one as that yellow and red python on the link i just posted is very nice.


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## Bushman (Sep 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> It would be a great step forward if all the pure locality line breeders (I have no idea how many there are) would identify themselves and advertise their snakes as such. I can see a lot of merit in that. We desperately need to form an association of that kind before it's too late (like in the US).


I couldn't agree more Michael. This is long overdue and hopefully it's not too late. 
What's that saying..."All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

Let's start now! I'm a pure locality line breeder and proud of it. 
I've spent the best part of a decade and gone to considerable time and expense sourcing and buying legal, locality pure stock. I'm sure that there's other herpers out there that are passionate about this.
Let's get together and protect what's left of locality pure lines in captivity. Sort of like heritage seed saver associations.


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## Red-Ink (Sep 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> No one is denying it or trying to change the course. What I said, and Bushman agreed, is - in order to protect pure Australian reptiles in captivity, we need to form a specialized group.
> If people with other interests, e.g. morphing and cross-breeding want to do the same or not to bother, it's fine with the rest of us. Fair enough?



One problem with this idea (and it's a great idea by the way and I would love for it to take off) is the whole reptile keeping attitude towards each other. Just like with hybrids you would get people slagging in some regards and saying "unless you picked that up from the place itself with proof, you can never be sure it's that locale".


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## Waterrat (Sep 21, 2011)

zuesowns said:


> I like the look of hybrids, they are really attractive which is why I can see why people like them.
> 
> I'd still rather keep a 'plain old' native Australian GTP, just my opinion.



They are nice, well some of them. I keep some mongrels too and I like the look of the. However, liking the look of a snake is not enough for me, I am interested in their ecology, biology, behaviour, etc., and those mongrels "tell me" nothing of substance or if they do, I can't interpret it because such information would be artificial. That's my stand point and whilst I don't deplore what others do, I feel it's time for separation of interest.


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## RedEyeGirl (Sep 21, 2011)

frogboy77 said:


> love hybrids,so many variables to play with especially when you produce carp rondos and jagprondos, can't wait to see them pop up in australia in the years to come,
> Jake




Jake be quiet...hybrids are BAD! I told you! In the years to come there will be no way to get a purebred snake...hahaha anyways im in school gotta go!


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## Morgan_dragon (Sep 21, 2011)

Raises hand. 



Waterrat said:


> We already have that situation with GTPs. We call them Biak, Sorong, this and that but the fact is, they were locality cross-bred a long time ago in a South Asian snake farm before they reached our shores and no one knows what they are other that "GTPs."
> It would be a great step forward if all the pure locality line breeders (I have no idea how many there are) would identify themselves and advertise their snakes as such. I can see a lot of merit in that. We desperately need to form an association of that kind before it's too late (like in the US).


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## Bushman (Sep 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> ...liking the look of a snake is not enough for me, I am interested in their ecology, biology, behaviour, etc., and those mongrels "tell me" nothing of substance or if they do, I can't interpret it because such information would be artificial. That's my stand point and whilst I don't deplore what others do, I feel it's time for separation of interest.


This is a critically important point that you make here Michael and is fundamental to the very reason that some of us keep reptiles in captivity. 
Like many other herpers, I'd much rather observe wild animals doing their thing in the bush. In fact, I still do this at every opportunity I get (which is almost daily, as I back bush) but we can also learn a lot about our native fauna by observing and studying them at close quarters. 
For those of us that look more deeply at animals in the hope that we may discover something new about them the reward great. Significant contributions have been made by amateur herpetologists worldwide and they continue to do so. Being able to keep reptiles privately in Australia was a hard fought battle against significant opposition from some members of the bureaucracy. Some of these authorities argued that if given the opportunity we'd muck it up. We are in real danger of doing this with the disturbing increase of hybridization, smuggling and introduction of exotic lines and species. It's of great concern to those of us that realize just how close we are coming to doing just that. The hobby is being very closely watched by the authorities and they don't like what they see (although some the opponents of keeping native animals do!). 
We have been given a great privilege in being allowed to keep our native animals in captivity. 
Let's not spoil it...please!


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## longqi (Sep 21, 2011)

In the GPT thread there are photos of 2 GTPs 
I think they were Sarongs
Possible posted by Baden?? Solar??
They were the most classic examples of that 'type' I have ever seen outside Indonesia
It would be a crying shame if that line isnt kept as pure as possible

One day locale specific animals will become important again


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## Waterrat (Sep 21, 2011)

There is only one way to keep track on any pure line and that is a DNA evidence. Fingerprinting is not that expensive or complicated in these days and will be cheaper and more readily available in the future. I keep DNA samples from each and every GTP that I keep as breeders or future breeders - those buying their progeny can request a piece of slough (good enough if kept properly) from the parents and I would be happy to oblige. 
That's the sort of thing we have to be looking into if we are to keep pure locality lines. The tests don't have to done straightaway on every snake and every transaction but it will keep the breeders honest.


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## fugawi (Sep 21, 2011)

I personally think we should be looking at Europe and the USA and learning from their mistakes. Hybrids, Jags, crosses etc will be pumped out like McSnakes by "Puppy farm/Battery hen" buisnesses, with the attitude "keep these 2 and euthanise the rest". All this for designer pets we really don't need.
We have enough problems with feral animals and unscrupulous buisnesses without adding another potential problem.


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## Greenmad (Sep 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> There is only one way to keep track on any pure line and that is a DNA evidence. Fingerprinting is not that expensive or complicated in these days and will be cheaper and more readily available in the future. I keep DNA samples from each and every GTP that I keep as breeders or future breeders - those buying their progeny can request a piece of slough (good enough if kept properly) from the parents and I would be happy to oblige.
> That's the sort of thing we have to be looking into if we are to keep pure locality lines. The tests don't have to done straightaway on every snake and every transaction but it will keep the breeders honest.



Michael great ideas but how do you know if the original stock is pure ?


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## Waterrat (Sep 21, 2011)

Greenmad said:


> Michael great ideas but how do you know if the original stock is pure ?



You can never know and that's why we need to convince the wildlife agencies to let us take some reptiles from the wild - under their supervision and endorsement that they are genuine locality animals. It will happen with Oenpelli pythons and it should happen with all other species. Taken from the wild, registered DNA, register of owner breeders, etc.. We will have to start from the scratch and that is my mission in this game. I'll be happy to surrender all my GTPs if I was given a permit to collect new stock from the wild and start again.


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## nervous (Sep 21, 2011)

Greenmad said:


> Michael great ideas but how do you know if the original stock is pure ?





Waterrat said:


> You can never know and that's why we need to convince the wildlife agencies to let us take some reptiles from the wild - under their supervision and endorsement that they are genuine locality animals.



Michael, are you saying that you aren't 100% sure that your greens are pure australian natives?


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## Waterrat (Sep 22, 2011)

nervous said:


> Michael, are you saying that you aren't 100% sure that your greens are pure australian natives?



No, that's not what I am saying - there are others who think my GTPs aren't 100% native. I would be happy to start all over again just to shut up the cynics and to have the founding stock certified by the QPWS. I, in turn would be responsible for producing pure line progeny with no foreign blood mixed in (as some breeders do with our natives). Maybe I would take up a few other locality specific species, provided I would be allowed to take the stock from the wild (personally). It would be a good start but it's nothing more that a dream because our bureaucrats don't see the light even if it's shining!


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 22, 2011)

Undoubtedly hybrids have tainted our hobby to some perspective. Speaking for myself, (If I was into buying morelia for example), I would never purchase of anybody who keeps jungles if they supported hybrids or kept jags. I know plenty of other people who also have this view and I believe this is a growing number. In fact if I know of anyone who keeps either, I will never deal with them buying or selling.


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 22, 2011)

Heres my veiw .


The facts are ? we all have licences and can breed and keep what ever is deemed legal in each state.


In regards to the Carpet python ? this is a truely polygenic python. 
Look it up.
heres a link.
Quantitative trait locus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Every aspect of this species is one of gradual change moulded by their specific habitat and there polygenic genes.
Carpet pythons are locality colour and pattern forms "period" end of story . Not seperate sub species.

With the acception of Bredli and Imbricata.

All carpet pythons found in QLD are the one species stated by QLD laws and this is the correct view on this species .IMO.
So they are listed as such by QLD Wildlife departments.

Breeding different colour and pattern forms together jungle to coastal is still breeding the same species.

Breeding a Green tree Python to a carpet is definately a hybrid.
Same as breeding a Olive python to a Water Python. HYBRID.
These hybrids are illegal in QLD so the state regulations will apply to these Hydrids.


As far as keeping locality colour phase form Carpet python pure ?
I am 100% in favour of this , its a great idea . Something I already do.
What could be better than keeping pure Palmerston line like this female .






or this male Cowley jungle male bred by Rob Mcleod.





But i will breed them together for genetic diversity. I believe its the right thing to do.

Some palmerston bloodlines are extreemely inbred and genetic problems are starting come threw now dew to lack of genetic diversity .

So i believe breeding different localitys together will benifit those hobiests who wants the most stunning examples of Black & yellow jungles.

Heres a example of a designer Jungle Carpet Python from mixed locality bloodlines .
Bred by a Angie K , she used a pair of my mixed locality stock , tully /palmerston/ obee/wilson lines 
A REAL MONGROL 





Heres a Black & Gold example of a Simon Stone bloodline Atheron jungle Carpet bred by Colin.






Heres a suspected Axanthic colour phase jungle Carpet produced by Simon Stone.
A fine man and major sponcer here.
Simon would breed his best B&G pair together and some clutches would produce 1/4 of that clutch B&W colours.






Some of the breeders who have the desire to maintain top quality locality specific bloodlines also have the integrity to keep these lines pure ?
But they also choose to breed carpet pythons of mixed locality "Designer" forms together from different localities to create new or interesting forms for hobby purposes only. 

Just so I am clear , breeding a Carpet python to another Carpet python in QLD is legal in my opinion .

But breeding a Green Tree Python to a Carpet python would be a hybrid and illegal in QLD .

I will always breed Carpet Pythons together .

But i would never breed a carpet Python to a Green tree Python because this is a HYBRID.....
I dont even keep GTPs anymore , I prefer my pretty carpet pythons instead. 
Each to their own is my moto etc


cheers
Roger


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## Waterrat (Sep 22, 2011)

The answer to genetic vigor in locality pure lines is to start with 5-6 unrelated pairs, not 1 or 2. Alternatively, add a new bood-line from the wild every few years (from the same location).


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## Jungle_Freak (Sep 22, 2011)

Respectfully Michael
You think that i dont already know that ?
and im definately not interested in your last recommendation for obvious reasons.


Roger


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## moosenoose (Sep 22, 2011)

Anyway, I reckon they are good :lol: I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks


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## Morgan_dragon (Sep 23, 2011)

Just out of pure curiosity....

How many were in the clutch and what do the other hatchlings look like? 

Do they behave more like a Chondro or a Carpet?


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## LadyJ (Sep 26, 2011)

Reported neuro issues thusfar?


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## morelia-mental (Sep 27, 2011)

There were 14 eggs in the clutch 13 hatched fine and one was full term dead in the egg. I would say 50% stay on the floor in the day but they do all perch up on an evening. They also all fed before their first shed and havent missed a feed yet.
Non are showing any issues, they are growing faster than previous true gtp clutches gaining both weight and size. Not a planned breeding but an interesting one, they are all similar in appearance even though we expected the jag influence to deem 50% to look different.
Thanks for all of your views and thoughts ( the good and the bad )


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## Morgan_dragon (Oct 17, 2011)

Do you have pics of the other hatchlings?


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## FusionMorelia (Oct 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> They are nice, well some of them. I keep some mongrels too and I like the look of the. However, liking the look of a snake is not enough for me, I am interested in their ecology, biology, behaviour, etc., and those mongrels "tell me" nothing of substance or if they do, I can't interpret it because such information would be artificial. That's my stand point and whilst I don't deplore what others do, I feel it's time for separation of interest.



so would an amnesty GTP and native GTP pairing be a mongrel mix?


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## shell477 (Dec 18, 2011)

Any pic updates on this stunning fellow??


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## Hoplophile (Dec 18, 2011)

Can't wait till my current hybrids hatch - cross between a blind snake (_R.proximus_ and a death adder (_A.wellsi_) . I'm selecting for small mouthed individuals (so I can't be bitten - better than venomoid!) with enlarged tail spines. Trouble is my last batch all required ant eggs to start. Later they started caudal luring small mice but couldn't swallow them. Unfortunately my giant Bandy Bandy (_Vermicella_ x _Morelia_ cross) got out and ate them all. Back to the drawing board. Looking to cross a freshwater snake (_Amphiesma_) with a seasnake (_Laticauda_) - hoping to get some banded brackish snakes. Keep watching this thread!


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## ricky_91 (Dec 18, 2011)

my friend works for the epa apparently there trying to make it illegal i think they look amazing tho


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

It is already illegal in Queensland. 



ricky_91 said:


> my friend works for the epa apparently there trying to make it illegal i think they look amazing tho


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## Hoplophile (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> It is already illegal in Queensland.



...And Victoria


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## Jeffa (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> It is already illegal in Queensland.



But where does the legality lie.
Morelia spilota spilota x morelia bredli: Legal?
Morelia spilota spilota x morelia mcdowlei: Legal?
Most of DERM would not know a python from a tree snake.
Do they inforce it?
Do not get me wrong as I am against cross breeds and I have a hard time trying to determine sub species and species, morphs etc.
Help please


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## KREPS2011 (Dec 18, 2011)

Is it legal in nsw or illegal??


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## morelia-mental (Dec 19, 2011)

shell477 said:


> Any pic updates on this stunning fellow??




They are all doing really well, still no neuro issues and eating like pigs


















Still no signs of colour change

Will pop back with an update every now and again

Thanks Mm


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## Retic (Dec 19, 2011)

Jeffa said:


> But where does the legality lie.
> Morelia spilota spilota x morelia bredli: Legal? NO
> Morelia spilota spilota x morelia mcdowlei: Legal? NO
> Most of DERM would not know a python from a tree snake. CORRECT
> ...


.....

Beautiful snakes, chances are they wont show any effects at all or minimal anyway. One of the great misconceptions is that anything with the Jag gene spends it's life corkscrewing and twitching. 



morelia-mental said:


> They are all doing really well, still no neuro issues and eating like pigs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JackJ (Feb 2, 2012)

Hi mate, how are they looking now? Any changes? Very interesting... 



morelia-mental said:


> They are all doing really well, still no neuro issues and eating like pigs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Wookie (Feb 2, 2012)

morelia-mental said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have recently produced a clutch of hybrid gtp's x jaguar carpet Carpondro's, whats everyone's view on this?
> 
> ...



So its a jagpondro not a carpondro?


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## BigWillieStyles (Feb 3, 2012)

> But where does the legality lie.
> Morelia spilota spilota x morelia bredli: Legal?
> Morelia spilota spilota x morelia mcdowlei: Legal?
> Most of DERM would not know a python from a tree snake.
> ...



Its quite complicated but I believe the responsibility to properly manage our captives is for keepers and herp groups to take a more proactive role and move to ensure we conserve our captive populations. Once hybridisation becomes more common (and acceptable) in captivity, it will be hard to determine if an animal is pure and this could lead to extinction in captivity as species are lost as they merge into one.


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