# American admits smuggling Aussie lizards



## News Bot (Jul 28, 2010)

*Published On:* 28-Jul-10 07:59 AM
*Source:* From correspondents in Los Angeles via NEWS.com.au

A REPTILE salesman has admitted in a Californian court he smuggled 15 live Australian lizards into the US by strapping them to his chest.

*Go to Original Article*


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## News Bot (Jul 28, 2010)

*Published On:* 28-Jul-10 08:22 AM
*Source:* By Peter Mitchell in Los Angeles via NEWS.com.au

A REPTILE salesman has admitted in a court he smuggled 15 live Australian lizards into the US by strapping them to his chest.

*Go to Original Article*


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm glad they got him, makes you wonder how many Aussie reptiles are smuggled out each year.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.


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## slim6y (Jul 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> I'm glad they got him, makes you wonder how many Aussie reptiles are smuggled out each year.
> 
> Doesn't seem worth it to me.


 
Don't take this the wrong way anouc - but in a previous thread you recall suggesting that killing snakes for food would increase the removal of these animals from the wild... Where I suggested that the pet market sale would be worse....

Now I have two theories - one confirming and one contradicting...

1 - The pet market is worth a lot of money - and as such smuggling, removal from the wild etc is rife - if we didn't want to buy them, then there wouldn't be a market....

2 - Because the food market is harder to 'catch' - ie the evidence is eaten, it is plausible to suggest that there's less chance of getting caught for removing a wild snake/lizard etc and eating it... So maybe the market is just as high (locally) just not as easy to catch...

However, I still believe pet markets are worth more than the food market - because you don't see people eating a $130 coastal carpet.... Or a $4000 GTP.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Well, if you recall I agreed that the pet market does undoubtably put pressure on wild populations, I'm not trying to dispute that at all; however I think the demand for ILLEGAL trade in reptiles will exist regardless of whether there is a legal pet trade or not. The Australian licensing system does mitigate this to some degree but I think the bans on exporting Aussie reptiles is very important.

The context of my comments in the previous thread was very different to what we are talking about here. I don't really want to get into this too much as I come onto this site to learn about reptiles and provide advice if I can, I don't come here to get into arguments with people.


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## nicman72 (Jul 28, 2010)

slim6y said:


> However, I still believe pet markets are worth more than the food market - because you don't see people eating a $130 coastal carpet.... Or a $4000 GTP.


 
Only in wealthy countries, slim6y. Being able to afford to purchase, keep and care for any pet is a luxury that you won't often see in developing countries. In fact, in a lot of the poorer countries, any animal that is not human is simply seen as a source of protein. 
Having said that, some of the more 'switched on' locals are now discovering that there is money to be made from the live animal trade...
The thing that REALLY bugs me about this article is that the animals were wild caught! Harsh penalties 'though... quarter mil fine and 20 yrs... whoosh...
Nic


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Those penalties are the maximums, reserved for extreme cases (eg a container full of reptiles). He will probably just be isued with a fine.


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## nicman72 (Jul 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> Those penalties are the maximums, reserved for extreme cases (eg a container full of reptiles). He will probably just be isued with a fine.


True; it'll be interesting to see what they hit him with. Glad they caught the #$^%!


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## richardsc (Jul 28, 2010)

he will get a fine way less than the money he will make selling the said 15 lizards and like most of them will be back here to smuggle more,its pretty obvious smuggling is widespread ,look at the new aussie species that keep popping up over there,they even have albino carpets from blondies line


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## nicman72 (Jul 28, 2010)

What's the answer then? Would having a controlled o/s export trade lessen the amount of illegal trafficking? If they're going to end up o/s anyway, wouldn't putting some sort of legal mechanism in place help? Surely most people would go the legal option, given the choice? It'd certainly reduce the suffering that the animals would have to endure during their journey (ie cage versus money bag strapped around body).


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## gozz (Jul 28, 2010)

Some people in our country have no morals, and should hang there head in shame
selling animals to be taken over seas you grubs


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## nicman72 (Jul 28, 2010)

gozz said:


> Some people in our country have no morals, and should hang there head in shame
> selling animals to be taken over seas you grubs


Said they were wild caught in the article...he might've just said that though to protect his source.


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## AM Pythons (Jul 28, 2010)

this the albino they are claiming is a 100% darwin, it has just 'turned up' in the U.S., some say it european, some say Canada bred.. who knows.. View attachment 156573


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## slim6y (Jul 28, 2010)

Sorry annouc - I actually never saw your reply in the previous thread -


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## mummabear (Jul 28, 2010)

The picture i saw he had Nephrurus Wheeleri Wheeleri. My understanding is there is not many in captivity in Aus so i wouldn't be surprised if they were wild caught.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

slim6y said:


> Sorry annouc - I actually never saw your reply in the previous thread -



No problem


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Smuggling of native Australian species is rife and always will be while there is a strong demand for our animals overseas. This is not something that receives a lot of attention from law enforcement authorities and the agencies that do give it some priority are not equipt with the coercive powers necessary to carry out sophistocated operations. Trust me.

Also the associated risks are low when compared with other illegal commodities such as drugs and weapons so it is seen by some as a relativley safe way to make some extra cash.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

I think the export bans need to stay though, otherwise there will be even more pressure on wild populations.


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## nicman72 (Jul 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> I think the export bans need to stay though, otherwise there will be even more pressure on wild populations.


 
Alright... what's the answer then? How would YOU control it?


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## Klaery (Jul 28, 2010)

I don't think you ever could completely I'm afraid.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Haha, I never said I had all the answers but I do think the export ban should stay in place. This is a complex issue and being at work I don't have the time to go into it right now.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

danielk said:


> I don't think you ever could completely I'm afraid.


 
You're right DanielK, that's what makes it so complex.


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## nicman72 (Jul 28, 2010)

Lol. It is a VERY complex issue, and I wonder if there is even an answer. There must be some viable options available, even if they just reduce the flow by part. I'm not necessarily for or against an o/s export industry - I'd need to know more info to make up my mind. But I would like to see some proactive, rather than reactive, attempts by our gov't to put an end to this crime.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Agreed, I have a few ideas I think would work and have worked for fishery exports etc. I'll post tonight.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 28, 2010)

nicman72 said:


> Only in wealthy countries, slim6y. Being able to afford to purchase, keep and care for any pet is a luxury that you won't often see in developing countries. In fact, in a lot of the poorer countries, any animal that is not human is simply seen as a source of protein.
> Having said that, some of the more 'switched on' locals are now discovering that there is money to be made from the live animal trade...
> The thing that REALLY bugs me about this article is that the animals were wild caught! Harsh penalties 'though... quarter mil fine and 20 yrs... whoosh...
> Nic



Sorry to backtrack, but I haven't found this to be strictly true. There is a big difference in developing countries between the kinds of animals that are smuggled, and whether or not locals can afford to have their own pets. The smuggled animals are always reserved for the wealthy. However, that's not to say that more common pets are not kept or seen as only a source of protein. I've never been in any culture where there hasn't been a healthy population of pet animals in society, though the way different cultures view these animals can be starkly contrasted, at times. 

In terms of smuggling, the pet market is worth more than food market. In terms of wildlife in a developing country, the food market probably is higher, but that's not to say that there are no pets, either  I hope I'm making sense.


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## siouxie (Jul 28, 2010)

11 depressa @ 1800ea, 2 x varanus pilb. @ 800ea, 2 x Nww @ 5k ea, more like 30k than the 8500 quoted. why is it only australian authorities that quote tenfold prices?

a few members are happy he ditched his cell and didn't fess up his arrangements with aussie herpers. who showed him good spots for red depressa and V.pilbs? whose place did he visit 2 days before leaving who inadvertantly made the call to a tennesee herper who snitched him in? (hint : the same qld person he dropped off a cache of nww as part of an arrangement ) 

still, it's an anxious wait for sentencing, he may still roll for a soft result.


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## Australis (Jul 28, 2010)

I doubt "pet smuggling" can even compare to smuggling of wildlife pieces for medicinal soups.
Some members are obsession with pets pets pets.

I don't have the room for a live whale at home, but have been known to make room in my belly for a slice.


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## cement (Jul 28, 2010)

still, it's an anxious wait for sentencing, he may still roll for a soft result.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't it be interesting if he did. Though theres F 'all anyone can do about it.


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## baggins (Jul 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> Smuggling of native Australian species is rife and always will be while there is a strong demand for our animals overseas. This is not something that receives a lot of attention from law enforcement authorities and the agencies that do give it some priority are not equipt with the coercive powers necessary to carry out sophistocated operations. Trust me.
> 
> Also the associated risks are low when compared with other illegal commodities such as drugs and weapons so it is seen by some as a relativley safe way to make some extra cash.


 
All I see here is rhetorical whinging based on misplaced sentiment. Wildlife smuggling is not "rife". If anything, smuggling is riskier than ever before due to technology and the war on terror causing searches of practically everything and everyone traveling. 

Law enforcement authorities do indeed give attention to smuggling wildlife; it is preposterous to state otherwise.

The "associated risks" are not low; as I stated, the risks of getting caught are the same whether your pocket has drugs or lizards in it. I doubt Mr Plank, who is looking at a potential stretch of 20 years, would agree with you.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

baggins I disagree with you for a number of reasons and I think I'm qualified to do so as I actually work for a LEA.

I'm not going to discuss methodologies
On a public forum but you are wrong on a number of levels.


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## baggins (Jul 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> I think the export bans need to stay though, otherwise there will be even more pressure on wild populations.


 
This is specious whinging and handwringing. We've got a country the size of the united states with practically no one living here; ( as compared to the size of the United States population ) there isn't smuggling/pet trade "pressure on wild populations" like you appear to want to believe there is.

Enough of this tail wagging the dog crap; this country shouldn't be made to stand on its nose because of the actions of a very few Mr Planks. The reality is, licensed breeders could export captive bred animals that they have legally produced. The entire process could be documented and managed, like it is out in the real world.


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## Waterrat (Jul 28, 2010)

I go with you nouc, how hard would it be to take a small plane from Port Moresby (or near by) to Mareeba airport? No customs, no border security, in fact, no one around most of the time.
One question for you nouc, if we have such good border control in place, how did the 2000 GTPs found its way from Indonesia to Sydney in 1007 and 2008?


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## BARRAMUNDI (Jul 28, 2010)

siouxie said:


> 11 depressa @ 1800ea, 2 x varanus pilb. @ 800ea, 2 x Nww @ 5k ea, more like 30k than the 8500 quoted. why is it only australian authorities that quote tenfold prices?
> 
> a few members are happy he ditched his cell and didn't fess up his arrangements with aussie herpers. who showed him good spots for red depressa and V.pilbs? whose place did he visit 2 days before leaving who inadvertantly made the call to a tennesee herper who snitched him in? (hint : the same qld person he dropped off a cache of nww as part of an arrangement )
> 
> still, it's an anxious wait for sentencing, he may still roll for a soft result.


 
Someone seems to have some inside info....lol... 

I'm not emplying you are involved by the way.....


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## caustichumor (Jul 28, 2010)

baggins said:


> The reality is, licensed breeders could export captive bred animals that they have legally produced. The entire process could be documented and managed, like it is out in the real world.


 
I would hazzard a guess that the animals that overseas keepers would want to import, would be the rarer species and the specific morphs not held in collections outside of Australia. So then we would have an Australian hobby where not only are we restricted to Native animals only, the special animals are shipped off to the keepers with the deepest pockets. So even if exporting where allowed who would it benefit? Apart from a handful of specific breeders....


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Waterrat the fact is we don't have good border security and despite what you hear from the politicians you can pretty much get whatever you want into the country. Look at how much the government spends on stopping drugs comming in but still it's readily available. Almost all drugs and precursor chemicals (other than cannabis) come form overseas. 

With regard to this discussion, it's no secret that they watch what comes in much more closely than what goes out.


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 28, 2010)

There is financial gain to be made by the government "allowing" pharmaceuticals into the country, but I doubt the same could be said for either the import of export of native or non-native reptiles. I'm not sure that you will find the answers by comparing the two.

Michael, I imagine those animals got here by some means similar to what you suggest. It wouldn't take a criminal mastermind to think of a plan like this. Hell, my dad mentioned starting an illegal venture like this to me last week  I declined, of course


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

I agree that licensed exporting would work but it would need to be tightly controlled. This has worked for other native species, so why not reptiles?

There have to be changes to domestic legislation first though.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Kristy you missed the point, and what is the financial gain to allowing cocaine into the country?


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

This thread was is about smuggling wildlife out of Australia, not in.


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## Waterrat (Jul 28, 2010)

anouc said:


> This thread was about smuggling wildlife out of Australia, not in.



I take your point but it is a two-way traffic.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Agreed


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## Kristy_07 (Jul 28, 2010)

Anouc, Michael addressed border patrol and smuggling animals in. You replied to him, bringing up the lack of good border control and the comparison to drugs. I addressed how comparing the trade to drugs to reptiles wouldn't yield answers on how to control the latter of the two, because they are apples and oranges, and gave a reason why. I don't see how I have "missed the point", or that my post wasn't valid or relevant to the discussion, as a whole. 

Governments benefit financially from the presence of drugs in their country, from prescription to cannabis to crack. It's a complex issue that I've studied and worked in for a long time. I won't been explaining the ins-and-outs of it on a reptile forum, but I doubt you really wanted to know the details, anyway.


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## Bushfire (Jul 28, 2010)

The American courts are much more heavy handed on these matters than Australian courts, I wouldn't be surprised if he serves some time. If in an attempt he mentions aussie keepers helped him, it wouldn't mean much unless he taped all conversations with said keepers, there is the matter of proof needed. I'd imagined the smuggling business has had to hurdle a few blocks since 9/11 and the resulted tightening of security measures. But looking at the types and amount of new arrivals that could have only come in since these measures were introduced, it is really easy to see they have adapted and continued to grow. The far majority of detections come from tip offs then purely by accident and then the obvious ones ie. noticeable characteristics.


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## Laghairt (Jul 28, 2010)

Your wrong about that because you can use identical methods to import/export drugs, reptiles or anything else for that matter. That is the point you missed. It has nothing to do with the market for a particular commodity.


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## CodeRed (Jul 28, 2010)

siouxie said:


> 11 depressa @ 1800ea, 2 x varanus pilb. @ 800ea, 2 x Nww @ 5k ea, more like 30k than the 8500 quoted. why is it only australian authorities that quote tenfold prices?
> 
> a few members are happy he ditched his cell and didn't fess up his arrangements with aussie herpers. who showed him good spots for red depressa and V.pilbs? whose place did he visit 2 days before leaving who inadvertantly made the call to a tennesee herper who snitched him in? (hint : the same qld person he dropped off a cache of nww as part of an arrangement )
> 
> still, it's an anxious wait for sentencing, he may still roll for a soft result.



three blind mice, three blind mice 
see how they squeal, see how they squeal


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