# Swollen limbs on ackie



## Sami-Lochy (Jun 4, 2013)

Hey guys,
My ackie, Greg hasn't been doing too well lately, he has had pretty bad swelling in his legs. I bought him 6 months ago and I bought him with another female he was being housed with. She was quite rough with him and would bite his feet, they ended up having to be separated and now Greg is housed with 2 little ackies. Gregs front foot started swelling a few months ago and it looked like it might have been a minor infection, so I treated with betadine ect and the wound healed up, but now weeks and weeks later the swelling still remains and a month or so ago his back legs and other front foot swelled up really bad(the one with the callous/ red pressure pad). I was thinking this might be a case of gout so I am worried about his kidneys ect. The swelling has remained dormant for about a month.Oh and by the way, I provide 8-10 hrs basking lamp, 10uvb for about 3 hrs, vitamins a few times a week and calcium dusted on crickets, also been bathing him in water. Temps are fine.
I'm just keeping him on tissues ATM, cause I'm afraid the bark in his enclosure will backtrack any progress on his hand, plus it might be painful.
Greg is looking in ok condition, very good lizard, no fever or signs of sickness




I think his last owner neglected him and did not invest to provide the right environment, I.e heat lamp ect, a thin centimetre of sand for substrate, and probably did not feed and change water regularly enough, and who knows if they had ever heard of vitamins and calcium. 

So the vet checked him out recently, took X-rays, I will upload the X-rays as soon as I get them( next day or so). The X-rays didn't conclude anything, there was no sign of any uric acid crystallisation around his limbs or kidneys(thankfully). All that it really showed was the fact that his muscle/bone tissue in his thumb on his really bad red swollen hand is disintegrating. The vet suggests that he thinks it is gout even though there are no clear indications. He said looks like organs and lungs and everything are looking clear and good. He said if it gets worse that I should take Greg back to the vet and he will take a sample of the swollen hand and send it to the lab. And the treatment for gout is very extensive and the patient needs extra fluid on a drip sometimes ect, and I know that there hasn't been much testing with this drug on the treatment of reptiles. I forgot the name of the drug, but they use it to treat humans. 

The vet has a good rep for working with reptiles.




I was wondering if any of you guys might have any idea or have come across this sort of problem before? I really want to help this little guy, don't want him to be in pain all the time. 
I appreciate any information or advice


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## 007_lizards (Jun 4, 2013)

Hi Se2741,

I haven't dealt with a problem like this personally but I just did a quick search in some books and I found these that might be relevant:

- Paronychia, normally caused by having moist substrate conditions, low basking temp, and rough surfaces. It is a nail infection but still causes swelling etc. Treatment is raising the temps, lowering humidity levels, and appropriate medicines if needed.

- Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD)/Vitamin D3 Deficiency, caused by the lack of calcium, vitamin D3 or UV-B. Increase in either calcium, vitamin D3, UV-B or exposure to natural sunlight can be used to help fix this problem.

- and gout like you mentioned.

I'm sure a more research into these problems and possibly some others can identify what is really going on.
I hope that Greg get better


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 4, 2013)

007_lizards said:


> Hi Se2741,
> 
> I haven't dealt with a problem like this personally but I just did a quick search in some books and I found these that might be relevant:
> 
> ...



i have done extensive research on different problems, I didn't come across paroynyhia. That's interesting about the nail infection, I will look into that. I have researched different problems such as mvb, shedding issues, gout, abscesses, and I couldn't see any possibilities. It would be interesting to see where you came across that info on nail infections? I can't seem to see anything on a brief google search.

does anyone know if gout causes bone disintegration? Or is that a sign of an infection?

I think it might be gout, im not sure of what can I do to help stop it ect? If there was no sign of it in the X-ray, does this mean that Greg will be alright if no more swelling continues?


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## KaotikJezta (Jun 4, 2013)

Swollen legs can most definitely be an MVB related disorder. Not saying it is but it is a possibility.


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 4, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Swollen legs can most definitely be an MVB related disorder. Not saying it is but it is a possibility.


Mvb? I think you mean mbd?mvb stands for mercury vapour bulbs i think. 
I think the swelling is built up around the joints, In regards to mbd there is no swelling of the jaw and he has had plenty of UVB and calcium past month or so, and has had descent amounts of UVB and calcium for the past 6 months, I think. The swelling began early march, I got him on the first of January.


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## KaotikJezta (Jun 4, 2013)

Se2741 said:


> Mvb? I think you mean mbd?mvb stands for mercury vapour bulbs i think.
> I think the swelling is built up around the joints, In regards to mbd there is no swelling of the jaw and he has had plenty of UVB and calcium past month or so, and has had descent amounts of UVB and calcium for the past 6 months, I think. The swelling began early march, I got him on the first of January.


Oops, sorry, mixup. Just because there is no jaw swelling that doesn't mean no MBD and you said earlier the previous owner didn't look after him so how do you know he has been getting what he needs. MBD can onset slowly.


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## mummabear (Jun 4, 2013)

If the vet took x-rays, what was his bone density like? Swelling of the limbs is a classic sign of MBD. MBD can also be caused as a secondary issue to what is really wrong not just from lack of supplementing. An animal doesn't need all the symptoms of MBD to actually have it.


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## dragondragon (Jun 5, 2013)

What size tank are you keeping him in it cause I feel that the picture show your keeping 3 in a 55 litre tub


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 5, 2013)

I was keeping in him in a small tub for a while just cause there is a bark substrate in his tank and it could irritate his foot when he is digging ect, i keep him in a 4 foot tank, I have taken all the bark out of the tank and put newspaper instead. Is this right or would anyone recommend just using soil/sand based substrate? as they enjoy digging and the substrate helps hold humidity ect


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 5, 2013)

The vet didn't say anything was abnormal with bone density, so I'm assuming that wasn't a problem, not sure tho. Still waiting for the X-rays to come through, will update as soon as I get them.


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 5, 2013)

Does anyone know how MBD is diagnosed? Is it blood samples?


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## jordo (Jun 5, 2013)

With any sick animal you should isolate it so it doesn't have potential to spread to other animals AND so there is no extra stress from cage mates.

What is the temperature at the basking site (in degrees celcius - "temps are fine" doesn't provide any useful info)?

Given the history of the other animal attacking its feet (side note: make sure that animal is being fed enough), I think straight along the lines of infection. When it had open wounds anything could have got in and now that it has healed over the infection might persist internally. You have to remember with a reptiles slow metabolism becoming sick, showing symptoms and healing can all be very long drawn out processes so periods like 6 months might not result in much change.

If it were me I would talk to the vet about putting him on a course of antibiotics to rule out bacterial infection. Great idea to remove bark and sand - especially if there are open wounds. I would also suggest keeping him warm over night, if you don't already, and keeping day lengths of 10hrs basking (particularly going into winter you don't want him trying to hibernate when sick). Basking temperatures should be around 50-60 degrees celcius.


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 5, 2013)

Basking spot is usually low 50s and cheers for the advice on isolation, I will consider doing so, I just recently got these 2 little babies a month ago and wanted them all to get used to each other. I will talk to the vet about infection, because I was thinking that it might be an infection from a while ago as well. It's weird he didn't look into the possibility of infection, I told him about the history of it getting attacked ect. Thanks for the advice, the tanks in my room so I don't like leaving the lights on at night but ill turn the heater on and put it closer to the tank at night, it's moving into winter now and is getting pretty cold around here.


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## KaotikJezta (Jun 5, 2013)

Why do you have all those monitors in a tiny tub, this isn't how they are being kept is it.


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## 007_lizards (Jun 5, 2013)

Se2741 said:


> i have done extensive research on different problems, I didn't come across paroynyhia. That's interesting about the nail infection, I will look into that. I have researched different problems such as mvb, shedding issues, gout, abscesses, and I couldn't see any possibilities. It would be interesting to see where you came across that info on nail infections? I can't seem to see anything on a brief google search.
> 
> does anyone know if gout causes bone disintegration? Or is that a sign of an infection?
> 
> I think it might be gout, im not sure of what can I do to help stop it ect? If there was no sign of it in the X-ray, does this mean that Greg will be alright if no more swelling continues?


 I found paronychia in "A guide to Australian Monitors in captivity" but when you do a google search it only comes up with this issue in humans. Also have you thought that he might be injured? Low chance that he would be considering that both front legs are swelling but maybe from the biting??


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 5, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Why do you have all those monitors in a tiny tub, this isn't how they are being kept is it.


If you read what I wrote above it says I keep them in a 4 foot tank.. So don't get too exited! Haha


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes I did mention to the vet I thought it might be an abscess or an infection. He didnt mention anything about it.. Anyway I will get in contact with him tomorrow and talk to him about it. I think his view was just that sometimes these things happen in monitors because of unknown causes and it hard to treat. And he didn't see the condition as life threatening. I think gout causes an arthritis sort of pain though and his thumb definately cannot feel too good as it is disintegrating.


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## mummabear (Jun 5, 2013)

Se2741 said:


> Yes I did mention to the vet I thought it might be an abscess or an infection. He didnt mention anything about it.. Anyway I will get in contact with him tomorrow and talk to him about it. I think his view was just that sometimes these things happen in monitors because of unknown causes and it hard to treat. And he didn't see the condition as life threatening. .


Id be worried if my vet said such a thing. These things nearly always have an explanation and more often that not something can be done.


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 5, 2013)

I was dissapointed yeah, but he is a good vet and I think he did the best he could, he also did the X-ray for free saving us 150$ which was very nice of him!


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## mummabear (Jun 5, 2013)

Se2741 said:


> I was dissapointed yeah, but he is a good vet and I think he did the best he could, he also did the X-ray for free saving us 150$ which was very nice of him!


The reality is, if they are not a good/great REPTILE Vet then everything you spent was a waste. He sounds like he has already given up at your and the monitors expense.


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 6, 2013)

The X-rays are now up, I'm on an iPad so could only upload them in the first post, so I hope you can find them.


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## dragondragon (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm not a vet or anything but shouldn't they do the X-rays closer to the actual problem?


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## jordo (Jun 6, 2013)

dragondragon said:


> I'm not a vet or anything but shouldn't they do the X-rays closer to the actual problem?


I suspect the x-rays were more the vet making a show of doing something :lol:


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 6, 2013)

do you guys reckon its too far away to see the gout. He did say he should have taken closer X-rays. I should have said well let's do that then but I guess I use trusted what he was saying. He does think its gout and I would agree but he doesn't know if the drug allopurinol would have any benefits, that's what they use to treat humans and not much reach has been done on allopunirol use in reptiles.


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## Sami-Lochy (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm going to get in contact with brisbane birds and exotics and see if they can help, there is not much information around on treating gout in reptiles, although the stated treatment is allopurinol, I can't come across anything on the net documenting the
use of allupurinol in reptiles, very frustrating. No change in the swelling of the leg. 
All the best guys,
Sami


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## Becca-Marie (Jun 10, 2013)

Cant praise bris birds and exotics enough. You wont regret calling them

Sent from my LG-P690f using Tapatalk 2


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## Sami-Lochy (Jul 30, 2013)

Greg is spending a few weeks with a specialist vet up at the Gold Coast . Peter is going to perform surgery on the wounds. Tomorrow he is lancing them and sending samples off to the lab. 
The swelling we now know is definitely not gout, like a different vet and I previously concluded, but more of a bacterial infection that has also infected into the bone. Could mean months of treatment but oh well, I don't mind paying the price for little Greg to finally get better. Finally decided to get more advice after Gregs hand popped open with a big red bubble/abcess last week.


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## Rogue5861 (Jul 31, 2013)

Poor bugger. Glad you have him on a treatment plan 


Rick


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## Sami-Lochy (Aug 15, 2013)

Hey guys, after 2 weeks with Peter, Greg is back and his arms and legs are looking great. Peter opened up his arms and legs and took out some little pieces of pus that were rock solid and picked away at Gregs arms and legs for 2 weeks. Also had him on antibiotics for those 2 weeks and I will be continuing the injections for 2 weeks. I happy, although it cost me just under a grand,  and I am broke through the roof now, couldn't pay rent this week unfortunately, damn I wish they did payment plans. 
Anyway I couldn't be happier my worries about Greg are gone and he looks like he will be here to stay a while longer! The infection could come back down the track but I don't want to think about that for now...
here he is, looking fantastic!!look at that red bubble and look at his hand now! 
Couldn't be happier - well as long as it doesn't come back!!


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## saintanger (Aug 15, 2013)

glad to hear he is doing well, and really sorry you are so broke now. i always but money away in a separate account usually a few grand just incase there is an emergancy. you should start doing that even $50 a week then wen one gets sick you can still pay the bills.


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## Robo1 (Aug 15, 2013)

Good to hear he's doing better.


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## jordo (Aug 16, 2013)

Great result. Well done for persisting until you got to the bottom of it.


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