# WA's new additions to the pet reptile list.



## Snowman (Mar 24, 2016)

WA has a very small list of reptiles we can keep. So it's pretty exciting when we get thrown another 6 species.

Today the following was added:
Childrens Python
Common Tree Snake
Yellow faced whip snake
North western red faced turtle
Banded knob tailed gecko
Northern blue tongue skink

http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/gazette/gazette.nsf/searchgazette/783A8F18EF1A4A5548257F7F000EC80E/$file/Gg049.pdf


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## Stuart (Mar 24, 2016)

Nice! Going to sticky this for a little if that's OK.


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 24, 2016)

that's great news for WA's reptile lovers,now if only the govt. would allow exports of their beautiful critters too!
I would love a couple for my collection.


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## adderboy (Mar 24, 2016)

dragonlover1 said:


> that's great news for WA's reptile lovers,now if only the govt. would allow exports of their beautiful critters too!
> I would love a couple for my collection.



Yeah, agreed, but try living over here. We can't keep any species not found in WA, still can't keep many species which ARE found in WA, can't import any pythons, and can't source the RSP, which is only found naturally in WA but is kept in the thousands elsewhere in Oz. Personally, I'm pretty happy with what I have so I'm not much affected by these limitations, but I know others are a bit frustrated. 

It's taken quite a bit of negotiation with DPaW to obtain the additions, and we're grateful for the progress made, we just hope it continues.

S


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 24, 2016)

yeah sorry about the ommission, I did mean a 2 way deal.
Actually it would be great if the various boofocrats could get together and agree on something for once.
Any Australian reptile anywhere in the country!!!!!!


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## pinefamily (Mar 24, 2016)

And one set of rules for the country, instead of different permit systems for each state.


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks for the post Snowman. It's great that we have got some new species on the list. Too bad they aren't species that I'm particularly interested in.

Dragonlover1, we are allowed to export to other states.

EDIT: Snowman and adderboy, what's involved in trying to convince DPAW to allow us to add more species to the list, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Bushfire (Mar 24, 2016)

They must really hate depressa, what's this 2nd time with held and is pilbarensis on its 2nd or 1st with held?
At least your slowly getting there I can feel the frustration from over here lol. Well done to those that got the ball started.


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## Burgo89 (Mar 24, 2016)

Woma also moved down from cat 4 to cat 3 license


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 24, 2016)

Burgo89 said:


> Woma also moved down from cat 4 to cat 3 license



how ridiculous,cat 1 here in NSW


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## Burgo89 (Mar 24, 2016)

[MENTION=21299]dragonlover1[/MENTION], cat 1 is entry level in NSW?


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## PerthHerper (Mar 24, 2016)

Hope that breeders can supply them soon


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## ronhalling (Mar 25, 2016)

[MENTION=41780]Snowman[/MENTION], First i would like to say welcome home Snowman, the place has not been the same without you.....Secondly if you can keep Childreni and Stimsoni why can't you keep Maculosa's??? surely that has to be a mistake. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) -ronhalling


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 25, 2016)

Ron, maculosa is not a WA endemic, so it can't be kept there. I wouldn't mind a pair of the very high green & red Yellow-faced Whipsnakes from the southern part of their range just north of Perth. I see them all the time around the house here in NSW but they have nothing like the colours of the WA form.

Still, this is the second species-list addition in the recent past, so looks like things are progressing somewhat. Maybe pressure should be brought to bear with regard to python imports - their oft repeated reason of disease potential has a very big hole in it now that Sunshine Virus can be tested for in live animals...


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## dragonlover1 (Mar 25, 2016)

Burgo89 said:


> @dragonlover1, cat 1 is entry level in NSW?



yes,we have 5 levels here,for instance eastern blue tongues are level 1 but northern & western are 2 (?) going all the way up to 5 which is highly venomous


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## adderboy (Mar 25, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> EDIT: Snowman and adderboy, what's involved in trying to convince DPAW to allow us to add more species to the list, if you don't mind me asking?



A lot of work! The WA Herp Society has negotiated both of the list increases with DPaW and that process started more than 7 years ago. DPaW and WAHS don't always agree, as you might expect, and the process can bog down for long periods. I worry that further additions might be some way off. I am happy with what I keep and don't envisage keeping more, and it's possibly the same for others, but WAHS exists for the members and so our efforts will continue.

I doubt we'll be able to keep any species that is not found in WA in my lifetime, though I hold out hopes (faint as they may be) that the python import ban will be relaxed someday. 

S


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 25, 2016)

adderboy said:


> A lot of work! The WA Herp Society has negotiated both of the list increases with DPaW and that process started more than 7 years ago. DPaW and WAHS don't always agree, as you might expect, and the process can bog down for long periods. I worry that further additions might be some way off. I am happy with what I keep and don't envisage keeping more, and it's possibly the same for others, but WAHS exists for the members and so our efforts will continue.
> 
> I doubt we'll be able to keep any species that is not found in WA in my lifetime, though I hold out hopes (faint as they may be) that the python import ban will be relaxed someday.
> 
> S



Is there any way a regular keeper can help? I'm one of the people who would like more species, I'm afraid. Really appreciate the work you're doing.


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## adderboy (Mar 28, 2016)

Thanks. Will PM you, Oshkii.


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## Burgo89 (Mar 28, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> Is there any way a regular keeper can help? I'm one of the people who would like more species, I'm afraid. Really appreciate the work you're doing.



+1 also interested


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## Snowman (Mar 29, 2016)

Bushfire said:


> They must really hate depressa, what's this 2nd time with held and is pilbarensis on its 2nd or 1st with held?
> At least your slowly getting there I can feel the frustration from over here lol. Well done to those that got the ball started.



They keep saying that it's because of the taxonomy split... But no idea why it's taking so long.

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pythoninfinite said:


> Ron, maculosa is not a WA endemic, so it can't be kept there. I wouldn't mind a pair of the very high green & red Yellow-faced Whipsnakes from the southern part of their range just north of Perth. I see them all the time around the house here in NSW but they have nothing like the colours of the WA form.
> 
> Still, this is the second species-list addition in the recent past, so looks like things are progressing somewhat. Maybe pressure should be brought to bear with regard to python imports - their oft repeated reason of disease potential has a very big hole in it now that Sunshine Virus can be tested for in live animals...



*I had a crack at python import now that there is live testing. They still came back with a strong no, even after I said I would sort out a vet to do the assesments. Here is DPaW's reply. *

_Hi Trent,_

_Thank you for your email enquiring about the lifting of the ban on importing pythons in to WA as resulted of newly available testing.

__As a result of your request I have made a number of enquiries with the Perth Zoo, Murdoch University and Parks and Wildlife ScientistS and it would seem that this test alone is not widely considered conclusive and therefore should be coupled with a comprehensive ‘Risk Analysis’ of any python coming into WA, rather than lifting the ban completely._

_The Herpetofauna trade is well represented currently with nine different pythons that can all be sourced from the wild for the pet trade and therefore at this time Parks and Wildlife will be maintaining a ‘Precautionary’ approach and will not be allowing the import of any pythons into WA until a very thorough and robust risk analysis is completed._

_At present Parks and Wildlife has no funding available to carry out this study for the pet trade and as a result it would need to be funded by the Herpetofauna industry. I have been advised that it would take a suitably (in that field) qualified veterinary surgeon at least 4-5 days to complete. _

_Please do not hesitate to contact me should you wish to discuss this matter further._

*Followed by:*
_
Thank you for your email.

__The Department must maintain the precautionary approach in this instance to ensure that we protect the States biodiversity. Therefore we will not be allowing the import of any pythons in to W.A until we have had a very comprehensive and robust assessment of the disease risks and the effective testing method(s). _

_Therefore, No this is not a single specimen study although each python would have to meet the requirements of any pre import process put in place should it be determined that there is reliable testing available for the range of disease._


_Please do not hesitate to contact me should you wish to discuss this matter further._





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*My aim was to get a few RSP into the state and some albino Darwins.

Failing that others were trying to get Perth Zoo to supply some RSP for the pet trade and we got this.....*

In response to your query as to whether we had received any feedback from Perth Zoo regarding captive breeding of Rough Scaled Pythons (RSPs), I can advise as follows.

Perth Zoo advised us that they currently hold 2 male and 2 female RSPs. The 2 males are the sons of one of the females, and the other female is the aunt of those 2 males (i.e. the full sibling of the other female).

On this basis the stock that Perth Zoo currently holds would not be suitable for establishing any sort of captive breeding program from a genetic perspective.

In the past when Perth Zoo actively bred RSPs they sent 2 males to a wildlife park in the Kimberley, 2 unsexed juveniles (now known to both be males) to a wildlife park in the south west and 3 unsexed juveniles (which we now believe to be 2 males and a female) to a metropolitan wildlife park.

We have no record of any other licensed facilities holding RSPs in WA and have not been advised of any breeding from amongst the 3 animals that were sent to the wildlife park in the metropolitan area.

It would therefore be inappropriate to base a breeding program on such a small core of so closely related animals. The Department’s current policy of prohibiting the importation of all boids into WA was recently reaffirmed by the Minister so is likely to continue into the foreseeable future, particularly as the likelihood of a disease outbreak occurring increases directly with the number of animals imported. Consequently, it would seem that there is little prospect of a captive breeding program for RSPs getting off the ground in WA using those animals that are currently in captivity.


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## stencorp69 (Mar 29, 2016)

Burgo89 said:


> +1 also interested



We have already submitted to DPaW the next 6 species to be assessed about 12 months ago, but recent advice from DPaW is that the list will not be looked at for another 5 years. I have written back to the Minister that we don't accept the decision and will continue to apply pressure to see additional species added to the list. We will be doing our best to make it easier for DPaW to assess the final 20 species sooner rather than later, they just need some help getting there.

One poll came through today mentioning that Labor is ahead in the state, so I suggest everyone keep sending emails to MPs and Ministers and express your dissatisfaction with this decision. We have contacted the shadow minister for the environment and he will be putting some questions to the minister and we have asked for FOI documents to assist in understanding the DPaW decision not to look at the list for 5 years and have a number of other FOI applications to submit as we move forward with our lobbying.

It's a slow process but we will get there in the end, we have already out lasted 4 ministers and numerous DEC/DPaW officers so we are a better than even bet at achieving our goal.


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## Snowman (Mar 29, 2016)

stencorp69 said:


> We have already submitted to DPaW the next 6 species to be assessed about 12 months ago, but recent advice from DPaW is that the list will not be looked at for another 5 years. I have written back to the Minister that we don't accept the decision and will continue to apply pressure to see additional species added to the list. We will be doing our best to make it easier for DPaW to assess the final 20 species sooner rather than later, they just need some help getting there.
> 
> One poll came through today mentioning that Labor is ahead in the state, so I suggest everyone keep sending emails to MPs and Ministers and express your dissatisfaction with this decision. We have contacted the shadow minister for the environment and he will be putting some questions to the minister and we have asked for FOI documents to assist in understanding the DPaW decision not to look at the list for 5 years and have a number of other FOI applications to submit as we move forward with our lobbying.
> 
> It's a slow process but we will get there in the end, we have already out lasted 4 ministers and numerous DEC/DPaW officers so we are a better than even bet at achieving our goal.



It also seems that there arent any takers that can or will collect the new species. With the current ban on new takers not being eligable and many of the older takers no longer collecting. All the work to get new species and no access to them other than import. I'd be keen to get a takers if they'd simply allow new takers access to the entire list, bar the ones that have been removed due to successful captive breeding.


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## PerthHerper (Mar 29, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, why is there a ban on new takers?


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## stencorp69 (Mar 29, 2016)

Snowman said:


> It also seems that there arent any takers that can or will collect the new species. With the current ban on new takers not being eligable and many of the older takers no longer collecting. All the work to get new species and no access to them other than import. I'd be keen to get a takers if they'd simply allow new takers access to the entire list, bar the ones that have been removed due to successful captive breeding.



With the exception of the python we should be able to import any of the other species if they are available, but certainly GTS and Whips can be sourced.

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Just checked on google plenty available for import - it would most likely be cheaper to purchase them than a taker paying the DPaW taking tax too.


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## Snowman (Mar 29, 2016)

stencorp69 said:


> With the exception of the python we should be able to import any of the other species if they are available, but certainly GTS and Whips can be sourced.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Just checked on google plenty available for import - it would most likely be cheaper to purchase them than a taker paying the DPaW taking tax too.



I really want D p cupreiceps which are only in WA I think? The bright greens and rust reds on the WA specimens are amazing.


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## stencorp69 (Mar 29, 2016)

I'd be reasonably confident that they'll be sourced due to close proximity to Perth


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## Snowman (Mar 29, 2016)

http://animal.memozee.com/ArchOLD-3/1112973170.jpg

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I want this 

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Also massive thank you [MENTION=1049]stencorp69[/MENTION] for getting these animals added. Without your constant work and pressure it would have never happend, and we are all eternaly grateful for that.


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## PerthHerper (Mar 29, 2016)

Yup, thanks stencorp69


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## stencorp69 (Mar 29, 2016)

Snowman said:


> http://animal.memozee.com/ArchOLD-3/1112973170.jpg



Yes V nice, not quite enough for me to get a license again but pretty close.

Thanks for the encouragement. My biggest motivation is to ensure DPaW honour their commitment to WAHS and the only way that can be achieved is by making it more difficult not to add the species than to add them. The wildlife officers will end up being experts in collating FOI document requests the longer it goes on, but I imagine it will be cheaper to assess and add the final 20 species on the WAHS list than having to undertake 5 years of on going FOI applications. I guess we will see. 

It is very important we continue to email our grievances to MPs as it just makes so much work for the public service that it ends up being easier for them to concede to our request.


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## Bushfire (Mar 29, 2016)

As the saying goes wildlife authorities never give out anything freely you have to fight and demand it and even then they only cave in kicking and screaming when ministers have had enough and force them to do something to shut you up and go away.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 30, 2016)

From my past experience in WA, and as stencorp69 suggests, I'd definitely be developing a constructive liaison with the Shadow Minister (I'm an old leftie anyway, so liaisons with Labor pollies were always agreeable for me !). It was what got (then) CALM off their highly resistant backsides in the first instance around 15 years ago, otherwise I'm sure there would still be no legal keeping in WA, such was the antipathy to the prospect of legal keeping in that state. I remember Peter Mawson (CALM's "scientific officer") suggesting that legal keeping would happen "over his dead body..." - I'm sure a few people in the room at the time were wondering how this could be achieved!

I notice Snowy that the correspondence from DPaW suggests that the Minister has reaffirmed the current status-quo - of course the Minister of the day will only act on the advice from his/her department, so it's a good way of deflecting responsibility from the reluctant bureaucrats, who will feed him/her the advice that suits them.

As has been suggested, the ONLY way to achieve change is to go down the political path, so developing direct communication with existing and potential political masters is essential. I have to commend all involved so far in what you have achieved, but the five year wait for a further review is arbitary and ridiculous, a bureaucratic brush-off that should be challenged immediately.

Jamie


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## Wally (Mar 30, 2016)

Are the staff at Perth Zoo aware of how limited the genetic pool of RSP's in captivity actually is and how the the rest of the country seems to be breeding and keeping them at this stage? It wasn't a large scale take from the wild that started the species being held in captivity in the eastern states.


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## pythoninfinite (Apr 1, 2016)

Wally said:


> Are the staff at Perth Zoo aware of how limited the genetic pool of RSP's in captivity actually is and how the the rest of the country seems to be breeding and keeping them at this stage? It wasn't a large scale take from the wild that started the species being held in captivity in the eastern states.



A total of five animals actually... just another obfuscation by WA bureaucrats to make you guys sing for your supper!

Jamie


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## Wally (Apr 1, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> A total of five animals actually... just another obfuscation by WA bureaucrats to make you guys sing for your supper!
> 
> Jamie



No singing required here in Vic.


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## pythoninfinite (Apr 1, 2016)

Wally said:


> No singing required here in Vic.



I can't sing, but I can play banjo backup! :shock:

Jamie


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## NicG (Apr 29, 2016)

Snowman said:


> http://animal.memozee.com/ArchOLD-3/1112973170.jpg



This is Demansia psammophis cupreiceps?! So nice to meet you! I own a (normal) YFWS but was not aware of her stunning cousin. Do they exist at all in captivity?

With respect to the original post, just wanting to confirm that Common Tree Snakes will be able to be imported into WA ...?


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## Snowman (Apr 29, 2016)

NicG said:


> This is Demansia psammophis cupreiceps?! So nice to meet you! I own a (normal) YFWS but was not aware of her stunning cousin. Do they exist at all in captivity?
> 
> With respect to the original post, just wanting to confirm that Common Tree Snakes will be able to be imported into WA ...?



Yes they can be imported into wa


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## Joeblake (Apr 29, 2016)

Snowman said:


> Yes they can be imported into wa



Please forgive me for being ignorant or just a plain noob but how long untill we start to see some common tree snakes start to come through the dealers over in WA ? Im guessing it is quite a lengthy process ?


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## NicG (Apr 29, 2016)

Joeblake said:


> Please forgive me for being ignorant or just a plain noob but how long untill we start to see some common tree snakes start to come through the dealers over in WA ? Im guessing it is quite a lengthy process ?



Define "dealers" ...


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## Joeblake (Apr 29, 2016)

Sorry its been a long day im referring to a reptile shop or someone i can purchase off legally, i would not support a dodgy deal in any way i dont want to end up being *** raped by the DPaW over here god know what else could happen . I was under the impression that we could not import any herpetofauna in to WA because of disease risk red tape ect


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## Nero Egernia (Apr 29, 2016)

Species that are not on our keeping list, as well as all pythons, cannot be imported into Western Australia.


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## Joeblake (Apr 29, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> Only species that are not on our keeping list and all pythons cannot be imported into Western Australia.



Thank you Oshkii for clearing that up so now dendrelaphis punctulata is on our keepers list we have to wait untill they approve a takers licence for for someone in WA only then they can be transferred ? Is that about right


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## Nero Egernia (Apr 29, 2016)

I believe so. It may take a while, however, until some have been collected and are offered for sale. As Snowman said, they can be imported.


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## Snowman (Apr 29, 2016)

Joeblake said:


> Please forgive me for being ignorant or just a plain noob but how long untill we start to see some common tree snakes start to come through the dealers over in WA ? Im guessing it is quite a lengthy process ?


Don't need to be a dealer to import them. If you can find a seller interstate you simply pay for an import permit from DPaW. 
People have already imported them.


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## Joeblake (Apr 30, 2016)

Awesome snowman thanks for explaining it to me maybe i can get one quicker than i thought which is great news


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## NicG (Apr 30, 2016)

I'll probably have a few hatchling CTS available in the coming months. I like them to be a little bit older before I export them interstate.


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## Joeblake (Apr 30, 2016)

NicG said:


> I'll probably have a few hatchling CTS available in the coming months. I like them to be a little bit older before I export them interstate.



Sounds good NicG il send you pm im chasing a blue phase CTS.


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## NicG (Apr 30, 2016)

Joeblake said:


> Sounds good NicG il send you pm im chasing a blue phase CTS.



What does "blue-phase" mean to you?


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## pythoninfinite (May 1, 2016)

I believe the only GTS "variety" you'll get wild-caught in WA is the golden form, common from the Kimberley and across the NT. I've rescued a couple from Kununurra banana boxes in Perth supermarkets over the years, vivid golden yellow with blue-grey heads. It's a very beautiful animal, but then they're all pretty elegant really. Some of those we see around here on the mid-north coast are quite brightly coloured, sadly many of those are dead-on-road... Green, blue, black, gold... the choice is yours guys  but get them into WA before the taxonomists get their teeth into them...

Jamie


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## Snowman (May 2, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> I believe the only GTS "variety" you'll get wild-caught in WA is the golden form, common from the Kimberley and across the NT. I've rescued a couple from Kununurra banana boxes in Perth supermarkets over the years, vivid golden yellow with blue-grey heads. It's a very beautiful animal, but then they're all pretty elegant really. Some of those we see around here on the mid-north coast are quite brightly coloured, sadly many of those are dead-on-road... Green, blue, black, gold... the choice is yours guys  but get them into WA before the taxonomists get their teeth into them...
> 
> Jamie



Are the green specimens readily available in the pet trade over east Jamie? I can't find any in the usual classifieds.


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## pythoninfinite (May 2, 2016)

Snowman said:


> Are the green specimens readily available in the pet trade over east Jamie? I can't find any in the usual classifieds.



I think so Snowy, it's the most common form, and around here varies from dullish olivey colour to fairly bright green, but they always look more spectacular when they're feeling a bit threatened and the blue & black colours come through between the scales as they puff themselves up. The blue and black, and black ones I've seen in the past come from around Townsville or its environs if I recall, but the CTS afficionados here would be able to give you more info I'm sure. I don't know any breeders offhand at the moment, and I think they're around but not bred that commonly because of the complexities of raising the bubs. Others will have more info I'm sure, so you're bound to find someone who can help you out. NicG's avatar shows a nice animal, and from what he says he might have a few coming up. They're a bit of a special interest snake, with specialised needs in general I think, but you get the odd one which fits right in to captive life.

Jamie


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## ronhalling (May 5, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> Ron, maculosa is not a WA endemic, so it can't be kept there. I wouldn't mind a pair of the very high green & red Yellow-faced Whipsnakes from the southern part of their range just north of Perth. I see them all the time around the house here in NSW but they have nothing like the colours of the WA form.
> 
> Still, this is the second species-list addition in the recent past, so looks like things are progressing somewhat. Maybe pressure should be brought to bear with regard to python imports - their oft repeated reason of disease potential has a very big hole in it now that Sunshine Virus can be tested for in live animals...


 [MENTION=41820]pythoninfinite[/MENTION], So Jamie i was chatting with my Brother today about the inclusions to the WA import list and the convo swung around to exporting from WA, he reckons they can't export any sp from WA ---> any Eastern state and i reckon they can.....who's right and is there a sp list of animals that can be exported? if there is 1 what sp are on the list. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) -ronhalling


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## pythoninfinite (May 5, 2016)

Hi Ron, you can export anything that's on the keeping list in WA, as long as the receiving state has the species on its own list. They just have a hefty export permit charge...

Jamie


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## adderboy (May 5, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> Hi Ron, you can export anything that's on the keeping list in WA, as long as the receiving state has the species on its own list. They just have a hefty export permit charge...
> 
> Jamie



Hmm, I believe a temp ban has been placed on exporting recently added species, Jamie. No ban on exporting the previous species. 

S


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## pythoninfinite (May 5, 2016)

Ah, OK S, that's a new one... I guess it's to get the numbers of WA specimens up in WA collections?

Jamie


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