# exotics or not



## dobermanmick (Jul 1, 2004)

Just thought we should do a poll on exotics to get a true indication of what everyone on this site wants


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## basketcase (Jul 1, 2004)

it isnt that simple

if they werent already here i wouldnt want them here, but they are. end of story


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## Dicco (Jul 1, 2004)

I would love to be able to own exotics but I don't think it's worth risking our own precious wildlife.


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## BROWNS (Jul 1, 2004)

If they were legal i'd find it hard to pass up an albino ball python...


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## hey_im_sam (Jul 1, 2004)

I'd find it hard to afford one 

I stand by our exotic laws as they are, but were they to change, I'd likely jump at the opportunity. Having kept boas, chameleons, uromastyx etc in the past really hasn't managed to sate my desire  Until that day though, there are enough beautiful animals native to our country to keep me satisfied.


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## instar (Jul 1, 2004)

If they were made legal, Id be the first to line up for a few land tortises ! To whoopee with the ultra conservatives, I know Id be responsible owner, besides, I wanmt to enjoy my life, Im told Im not coming back! :lol:


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## NoOne (Jul 1, 2004)

I would bet that if exotics became legal most of the people who are against it would change their minds pretty quick, i love all reptiles.... i don't care what country they come from.


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## Bryony (Jul 1, 2004)

there are some things i don't understand about all types of exotics.........
dogs and cats can come from OS and they have a horrible impact on nature and wildlife
we stuff up our own environment without the help of anyone/thing else.
everything is so confusing

i love all animals but i can't help to think in the future if we weren't here what would happen and since we are what would happen if we let everything go

sorry guys just thinking out loud


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2004)

Dont hurt yourself Bry......lol


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## instar (Jul 1, 2004)

Hey Bryony, I hear ya! We have made a mess of our enviroment on a global scale, our grandparents did it, our parents did it, and we'are doing it too. Consumerism on the scale it is cannot go on indefinatly. Thankfully my kids generation are learning so much about the state of the worlds enviroment, and learning not to take it for granted.
Hopefully they will make a change, and their children will follow in their footsteps. Perhaps my grandchildren will have a clean world, albeit sadly lacking many many species! They will likley not ever see some species we have today, in the fleash. You have to start somewhere.
To change your own thinking takes a short time, but to change the thinking of a world, takes a bit longer.
Cheerup Bryony, Your children may be lucky enough to live in a world without Macca's!!! :lol: :wink:


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## africancichlidau (Jul 2, 2004)

FCS Guys


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## BROWNS (Jul 2, 2004)

what is FCS? 

Are you using foul language?


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## BROWNS (Jul 2, 2004)

for christs sake what is FCS?


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## kevyn (Jul 2, 2004)

> If they were legal i'd find it hard to pass up an albino ball python...



The price tag is enough to keep me away. That and Ball Pythons are a royal (pardon the pun) pain the a$$. But Meaghan will tell you differently...


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 2, 2004)

I personally don't think any exotic animals should be introduced to Australia, we have seen and continue to see the problems associated with those have been already.


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## Fuscus (Jul 2, 2004)

Bryony said:


> i can't help to think in the future if we weren't here what would happen


The enviroment would first have to cope with the damage our passing would do. Even if we did as much damage as possible, nature would have re asserted itself after 10 millon years and it would be hard to tell that we were even here. Except that we proberly would have taken with us all animals that couldn't burrow, hibernate or survive without food for a long time so there would be a completly new set of large animal species that have evolved from the survivors to fill the now vacant ecological niches. In other words, exactly what happened after the extinction of the dinosaurs.




Bryony said:


> what would happen if we let everything go


In 50 years,you go to any place in the world and see exactly the same couple of dozen species of wild animals and plants you see at home, we will have "McDonaldized" the enviroment. This sure looks like the way we are heading.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2004)

we are a pimple on the face of the universe festering and waiting to be popped.


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## dobermanmick (Jul 2, 2004)

> In 50 years,you go to any place in the world and see exactly the same couple of dozen species of wild animals and plants you see at home, we will have "McDonaldized" the enviroment. This sure looks like the way we are heading.


that would make the world very boring ! also only the strongest would survive so most of the fragile wildlife which we have a lot of in Oz would be gone !


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## craig23 (Jul 2, 2004)

One thing i notice is that everyone expects that if exotics were introduced legally into australia they would have a impact on our environment. Well I would suggest if they ever were to be introduced legally (IF) it would be a extremely controlled and a heavily licenced hobby. Infact there are endless amounts of control the government could place on people that were interested in keeping exotics which could pretty much ensure animals dont find there way into the wild and cause problems.

For example (just one that comes to mind in 2 seconds) is that for your average joe blow hobbiest, only de sexed animals could be kept. that way if one excaped it is going to have little impact on the wild as it most likely wont survive in its new environment for long (in most cases) and secondly it cant breed.
As for the breeding, only licenced people with facilities that are strictly monitored and secure could breed animals. all fertile stock must be fitted with Digital ID etc etc etc. There are plenty of ways exotics could be kept as pets in australia without ANY impact on our environment.. sure it would all come at a massive cost. But its possible. 
Everyone goes on about our environment.. it shouldnt even be an issue because proper management would ensure that none get into the environment. or is that to much effort??????

Man people are willing to pay $5000 for a green tree python or $2000 for a woma. if we are talking about this much money we could all have a rectic thats de sexed, has digital ID, and a radio tracker implanted as well.... what are the chances of it causing an environmental issue?

MOST animals that have caused significant environmental problems in OZ have been released on purpose to establish wild populations eg, cane toad, fox, rabbit, european carp, and more. Animals like cats never had a licencing system and it was inevitable. In a strictly regulated licencing environment and with the cost of the animals, there is little chance in my opinion it would be a problem. You can not compare keeping exotic reptiles to almost any of australias ferral animal issues, they are TOTALLY different.

Funny thing is im not even saying im interested in keeping exotics, this is just so obvious but no one seems to notice.

craig


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## BROWNS (Jul 2, 2004)

Yep,good ideas...but what about the exotics being bred here now?


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## craig23 (Jul 2, 2004)

well they are all ready here illegaly, thats a totally seperate issue. That problem exists already. nothing we can do about it, why should it impact on keeping exotics in the future. Its always going to be the illegal unlicenced people that cause the damage most of the time. its the same as the gun issue. Why take guns off licenced people when its the unlicenced people that are proven to commit most crime with the guns.

craig


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## Fuscus (Jul 2, 2004)

craig23 said:


> ... Why take guns off licenced people when its the unlicenced people that are proven to commit most crime with the guns.
> 
> craig


Tell that to the people of Port Arthur


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## instar (Jul 3, 2004)

Couldnt have put it better Fuscus ! NO GUNS, ANYWHERE, EVER !!!!! (could never understand why police didnt kill martin bryant immediatly, no hesitation, no questions asked! Hes damn lucky it wasnt in vic) I certainly would have shot him dead straight away, no hesitation at all.
Im sure a few folk would have liked them to have let him burn.

There is no need for guns outside olympic type competition. imho


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## Stevo (Jul 3, 2004)

There are exotics held by private keepers legally in Victoria already. There was an amnesty bout 8 or so years ago where people were given a separate license to keep what they declared in amnesty. They arent allowed to breed or sell the exotics but they didnt have to have them desexed. So it is really a question of how honest these people are. They had to submit a written statement on why their exotics wouldnt escape and what they would do if they did and also how secure the enclosures were. Makes you wonder if down the track they might be legalised??
Stevo


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## Tommo (Jul 3, 2004)

thats how the lady in that story got her permit. she kept a green iguana, 2corns and 3 leopard geckos. she ruined her chance to keep exotics by selling them illegally


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## soulweaver (Jul 3, 2004)

yeah well, there were 2 allied soldiers in ww2 that got carried out wounded in the same battle, both thought the other was dead as they were good mates! 60yrs later they moved into retirement homes and become neighbours!


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## hey_im_sam (Jul 3, 2004)

Nice story  But I've missed the relevance..?


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## Stevo (Jul 3, 2004)

Im a bit confused 2


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## dobermanmick (Jul 3, 2004)

Everyone keeps saying that there here already but does anyone really have proof? or is it just hearsay?


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## Stevo (Jul 3, 2004)

They are definately here Mick legally and illegally. You would be surprised at how many there is. Obviously no one is going to post photos on a public forum if they illegally keep them.


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## hey_im_sam (Jul 3, 2004)

Nope Mick, they're definately here. Many keepers here have talked to exotic keepers directly, if not actually seen them, and I'm sure there are exotic keepers who are members here as well (though clever enough to keep their mouths shut about that ) Exotics are seized by the government on a semi-regular basis, there have been a few newspaper stories on the outcome of those posted on here. Exotics have been declared during various amnesties, and some are legally held as a result of those... etc etc


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## instar (Jul 3, 2004)

craig23 said:


> One thing i notice is that everyone expects that if exotics were introduced legally into australia they would have a impact on our environment. Well I would suggest if they ever were to be introduced legally (IF) it would be a extremely controlled and a heavily licenced hobby. Infact there are endless amounts of control the government could place on people that were interested in keeping exotics which could pretty much ensure animals dont find there way into the wild and cause problems.
> 
> For example (just one that comes to mind in 2 seconds) is that for your average joe blow hobbiest, only de sexed animals could be kept. that way if one excaped it is going to have little impact on the wild as it most likely wont survive in its new environment for long (in most cases) and secondly it cant breed.
> As for the breeding, only licenced people with facilities that are strictly monitored and secure could breed animals. all fertile stock must be fitted with Digital ID etc etc etc. There are plenty of ways exotics could be kept as pets in australia without ANY impact on our environment.. sure it would all come at a massive cost. But its possible.
> ...



So well said mate, I had to quote the whole post! :wink: Spot on, to my way of thinking.


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## Hickson (Jul 3, 2004)

craig23 said:


> There are plenty of ways exotics could be kept as pets in australia without ANY impact on our environment.. sure it would all come at a massive cost. But its possible.



Sure it acan be done at a massive cost. Australia-wide we'd be talking in the tens of millions of dollars just to set up the infra-structure in each state, the quarantine and import facilities, testing, monitoring and enforcement, and the rest of it. That's not even considering salaries for the people working in the industry. The ongoing costs each year would be massive as well.

Yes, it could possibly be done the way you suggest.

But it won't be. The government would never outlay all that money while our schools are overcrowded, our universities underfunded, our hospitals full, our roads in bad condition etc. We know how a certain councillor on the Gold Coast feels about people keeping snakes as pets, how do you think the general public would feel about the Govt. funding a project to the tune of millions of dollars for a minority group (and that's what we are) so that they can keep even more snakes?

No government would do that, because it would not fly well with the general voters, and the money could be better spent on more important things.




craig23 said:


> You can not compare keeping exotic reptiles to almost any of australias ferral animal issues, they are TOTALLY different.



If captive exotic reptiles escape and set up feral populations, then yes, the cause of the feral populations is different. But the end result is the same - so it is not "TOTALLY different".


Hix


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## Magpie (Jul 3, 2004)

Can snakes be desexed safely and painlessly?
Who would pay $2000 for a reptile that they can never breed from?
Who would pay $500 for a reptile they can never breed from?
Who gets the licence to breed them?


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## Fuscus (Jul 3, 2004)

I have to answer Craig's post even though I am sick of the subject and the people who said 'yey' before will say 'yey' again while the people who said 'nay' will again say 'nay'. Fortunately, from my perspective, there are many more stake holders in this issue than just reptile keepers so exotics are unlikely to ever become legal.

First of all, there seems to be a misconception that allowing exotics will prevent smuggling , I think this is very unlikely for reasons explained below.

Secondly the statement "Allow exotics in?" implies all exotics (though some have stated otherwise), the most probable case in this unlikely scenario is that only some species will be allowed in. In this case the whining 'Why can't we keep exotics?' will be replaced with the whining 'Why can't we keep other exotics?'. In other words this argument will continue, only the boundaries will have changed!

Craig also states 

As for the breeding, only licenced people with facilities that are strictly monitored and secure could breed animals

This implies at the very least 100% escape prove cages with no possibility of departure during cleaning, feeding and maintaince. If you have any photos of one please post it, I would be interested in seeing one. Currently, the best practice that I know is secure cages inside a secure room in secure premises. And the place would have to be well maintained, if the breeder couldn't quite make ends meet then that hole in the wall wouldn't get repaired quite quick enough. Of course the place would also have to be catastrophe proof as well, we cant have the snakes escaping during a flood, earthquake or cyclone, that would defeat the whole purpose.

Then of course there is malicious behavior, we have just had an example on APS. Imagine instead of doing that, they got an axe and hacked through the back of the breeding room. And it doesn't have to be people you know, all you need is a few blokes out on Friday night, young, dumb and full of rum, getting in and trashing the joint.

Then there is the assumption that the animals will always be on the premises, the worst case scenario I can think of is a car accident on the way to the vet to get this year's hatchinglings sterilized with all of the year's crop escaping! 

And do I need to talk about thievery in all its forms? Nah. 

And the strictly monitored bit. How strict, monthly visits? Weekly? Daily? Closed circuit monitoring? Remember we also have to regard the keeper as a potential risk as well. I sure that 99.99% would do the right thing but it only takes one, there is the story circulating that the keeper with registered exotics breeding them. There would be a huge incentive for the breeder to sneak a few out the back door, how hard would it be to hide a few eggs) every registered sale would attract vet fees, government charges and, of course, the dreaded GST, while a few sold down at the pub wouldn't.

And the end rub ? even getting close to this would cost money, lots of money, and it wouldn?t come from the government, so people would then have a choice, pay $1200 for a registered, sterilized animal or $200 for one down at the wharf (and you could go to www.dodgiecertifications.com to download a piece of paper that says its legal). So we then end up with an illegal population that is even harder to detect.:shock: 


Anyhow, I?m getting of my soapbox, I'm starting to wear it out. 8)


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## Stevo (Jul 3, 2004)

Fuscus u r a tease lol . I just tried ur link dodgy certificates and didnt work I was gonna get a dodgy certificate for a png green


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## instar (Jul 3, 2004)

> The government would never outlay all that money while our schools are overcrowded, our universities underfunded, our hospitals full, our roads in bad condition etc.



LMBAO !!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Of course not freind, They're as honest as the day is long :shock: :lol:



> I have to answer Craig's post even though I am sick of the subject and the people who said 'yey' before will say 'yey' again while the people who said 'nay' will again say 'nay'[/quote}
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fuscus (Jul 3, 2004)

Stevo said:


> Fuscus u r a tease lol . I just tried ur link dodgy certificates and didnt work I was gonna get a dodgy certificate for a png green


Sorry mate, I haven't been able to register the domain, haven't been able to calculate a credit card number that they they will accept 
yet


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## peterescue (Jul 3, 2004)

By your logic Fuscus we shouldnt keep anything dangerous because someone could do something irrational(malicious).
Peter


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## africancichlidau (Jul 3, 2004)

And that's the way it should be


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## peterescue (Jul 3, 2004)

I agree, People should do irrational things regularly.


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## africancichlidau (Jul 3, 2004)

ROFLMBAO


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## rodentrancher (Jul 3, 2004)

Guns, how did the subject change to guns? Dave had to sell back a couple of really good guns inthe buy back thingo. Really peeeed him off. His family have always been into Field and Game, Clay target shooting etc. Inherited all his Dad's guns. 9 of the darn things. Don't know why he's still got em licensed. Should sell em off. Only have to shoot sheep killing dogs now and again!!! Or a few spoggies with the air rifle??? LOL


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## Fuscus (Jul 3, 2004)

peterescue said:


> By your logic Fuscus we shouldnt keep anything dangerous because someone could do something irrational(malicious).
> Peter


How did you come to that conclusion pete? Craig mearly stated a way that, in his opinion, exotic could could be kept without danger to the enviroment and I disagreed.


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