# Confused ? i know i am !



## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

Sorry to bring up this debate again (well its in the same ball park) but If exotics are illegal in australia......why do some shops sell the books to keep them ? Bit of a niche market !! 
Just wondered, and im sure there’s a totally reasonable explanation, but I cant understand why there are books for sale on the care of leopard geckos, corn snakes, milk snakes, green iggys etc !! Yes I know there are some exotics in aus but if you sell the books then I would have thought it would have given some the impression that exotics are ok in aus, if you can buy the books !! no? yes ? Or just me being british ?


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## Nome (May 20, 2006)

I've seen in pet stores before them sell them to people that have just bought a snake to say they are similar to look after and they can use them to work out how to care for their australian counterparts. It's about marketing I suppose.

When you move here, you'll find a lot doesn't make sense like that.

Wait till you see our media!! Get caught in a mine for two weeks and you have the big boss exective of a tv station waiting for you when you get out, and follow you to a pub to harrass you about interviews.

We are a strange breed.


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

If you go to bookstores in some parts of Sydney you can buy books promoting Bin Ladens ideoligy and terrorism so i hardly think books on exotic reptile care are strange or much to worry about Lol.
I'd suppose that because til not so long ago keeping even native reptiles was illegal here there has always been a lack of books on native reptile care so people would use books on exotic reptile care as a guide line, many aspects are still applicable.


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## krusty (May 20, 2006)

its like drugs they are illegal to buy but you can go to a shop and buy all the stuff you need like bongs etc.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

I must admit I have often wondered why these shops ell books on those species you mentioned because to be honest there aren't Australian equivalents for most of them. Now there are many 1000's of exotics in this country so maybe the shop owners are just providing information for all the illegal keepers ?


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## steve6610 (May 20, 2006)

lol, thats as good as seeing rabbit books in qld pet shops, or going to the supermaket and seeing rabbit food beside the rat food, 

cheers,
steve..........


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## kel (May 20, 2006)

i have often thought this very same question, ebay AU has books on all these reptiles also


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

Nome said:


> We are a strange breed.



You obviously have'nt met many english people !! :lol: :lol:

Parko, you can buy those books here too, and ones on how to make a bomb ! :shock: (im upto page 27!! so far !! :wink: )


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

It is just the way the law is, you can publish and sell almost any book here. Exotic reptile care books have been sold here even when i was a kid, and back then i doubt there were near as many exotics here. Simple info like heat gradients, worming, feeding, making enclosures etc are often relevant so it's no surprise really.


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## CageKennylz (May 20, 2006)

What about them being used for a reference?
Say my fave snake was a black mamba and i decided to do a project on it for school/tafe/uni it would make it alot easier to have all you need in one book then to visit 10 sites which pretty much anyone without even a clue on what they are talking about can publish.
If you were to ban the sale of them shouldn't we also put restrictions on searching for exotics and google etc.
I dont see any harm being done by them selling them as I don't think they encourage people to keep exotics and it obviously won't point you in the direction of where you can obtain one illegaly.


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

i thought there had always been plenty of published material on Australian reptiles, was'nt cogger's first book published around 1975 ? and ive got books here from 1980's on australian herps !! Barker & barker !! ?
Australia is a gold mine for herpetoculturists, so i cant imagine there ever being a shortage of the stuff !


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## krusty (May 20, 2006)

true moreliaman.


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## CageKennylz (May 20, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> i thought there had always been plenty of published material on Australian reptiles, was'nt cogger's first book published around 1975 ? and ive got books here from 1980's on australian herps !! Barker & barker !! ?
> Australia is a gold mine for herpetoculturists, so i cant imagine there ever being a shortage of the stuff !



Black mamba's are African Natives :roll:


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

CageKennylz said:


> If you were to ban the sale of them shouldn't we also put restrictions on searching for exotics and google etc.
> I dont see any harm being done by them selling them as I don't think they encourage people to keep exotics and it obviously won't point you in the direction of where you can obtain one illegaly.



Who said anything about banning book sales ??? i just asked a simple question !! and i never said they done anyone any harm ?? !! 
even more confused now !!

Also would it not be better to encourage people to study native/australian herps, giving them a better understanding about australia's native wildlife ? they are hardly going to meet a black mamba in the bush !!


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

CageKennylz said:


> Black mamba's are African Natives :roll:



I'm guessing your a rocket scientist in your spare time !!?? :wink:


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## Nome (May 20, 2006)

Told ya we are weird :lol:


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## CageKennylz (May 20, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> CageKennylz said:
> 
> 
> > Black mamba's are African Natives :roll:
> ...



Very funny
what you have written dosen't make sense you asked about books which were on exotics i gave you an example of why they can be usefull and then you start talking about Australian snakes :? 
I see you really are confused.


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

Cagekennylz, i suggest you read my original post again !!
Then perhaps you could PM me, then there wont be any need to fill this thread up with rubbish :wink:


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## CageKennylz (May 20, 2006)

Just read it again, What was that meant to acheive?
As i said you asked why they sell them i gave you a reason and then you went off topic talking about Australian snakes.
I don't see what point you are trying to make by posting about Australian snakes in an exotic thread that YOU made.
I have said what i wanted to say and i can see you really don't have a clue so have fun with your thread.


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

ok bye !:roll:


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## Moclobe (May 20, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> i thought there had always been plenty of published material on Australian reptiles, was'nt cogger's first book published around 1975 ? and ive got books here from 1980's on australian herps !! Barker & barker !! ?
> Australia is a gold mine for herpetoculturists, so i cant imagine there ever being a shortage of the stuff !



While there has been plenty published about australian reptiles most of the pubications are on providing natural history, identification etc. There was and to some extent still is very few books on the husbandry, breeding etc of our native reptiles.

Regards David

PS CageKennylz I don't thing that moreliaman was replying to your post


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Did anyone say they weren't ?



CageKennylz said:


> Black mamba's are African Natives :roll:


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Don't worry, I had no trouble following what you were saying, you'll get used to it. :lol: 



Moreliaman said:


> ok bye !:roll:


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## Rennie (May 20, 2006)

While were filling the thread with rubish



Moreliaman said:


> Nome said:
> 
> 
> > We are a strange breed.
> ...



Don't you remember where we originally came from (except the aboriginies of course), we were you're rejects :lol:


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## mciver (May 20, 2006)

It’s called the pursuit of knowledge.
Not everything we see or read in the encyclopaedia happened here in Aus either, but the publication is for sale and many of us have read them at one time or another. We can't ban legal publications just because some or even all of the content in them is not entirely pertinent to our country.
Imagine if we never read or were allowed to see anything to do with lions for instance. Bit ridiculous eh?
OK Glad Iv'e sorted this one out. Now we can all move on.

Best regards Paul


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

I don't recall anyone saying they should be banned or that we shouldn't be able to read them, the question was does it seem strange that there are so many husbandry books on exotics available in this country.
I'm not sure where the issue of banning them came into the debate ?
The point is the books are aimed squarely at husbandry of species unavailable legally. We aren't talking about a book about reptiles of the world, these books deal with specific captive requiremnets of animls such as boas, leopard geckos, iguanas etc.


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

trust you rennie !! :lol:
not rejects mate, at the time we just used an island for a purpose....bit like you do with new guinea !! :wink: , but if the same happened now i think half the UK would commit a crime if it meant being shipped out to australia !! :wink: :lol:


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

ok just for the record here

NO ONE IS ON ABOUT BANNING THE SALE OF ANY BOOKS !!! 

i cant understand how some simple thing's get misinterpreted!! like now !!!


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Oh my God, wheres the 'i want to be sick' smiley ? :lol: :lol: 



Moreliaman said:


> but if the same happened now i think half the UK would commit a crime if it meant being shipped out to australia !! :wink: :lol:


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

lol..........ash it would be a cheap way to get out there.....free even !! (i just dont want to do the hard labour they done back then...is that ok ?)


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## kel (May 20, 2006)

i think the biggest issue with having these books sold at petshops etc rather then book shops is that the unknowledgeable might think they can legally buy them(the reps not the books) in australia


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

exactly the point ! , thankyou kel


Are there any traders on here willing to reveal the quantity of specific exotic specie books are sold in say 1 year ? just to get some idea of how many !


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Hooray, yes exactly.


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Lol, you 2 pommies are funny.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Well we are renowned for our sense of humour.


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## Moreliaman (May 20, 2006)

Hey bugger off..........i look nothing like a round exotic fruit !! :lol: 

(i might look like a lobster after 2 weeks in Oz, but not a fruit!! :wink:


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Very true Boa, it must be some kind of survival instinct, laugh or go insane. :wink: 
Oh well at least the original question was answered and we can now choose the answer we like best and accept it as the truth.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

I must admit I never use the word myself especially to describe myself, I've been here longer than Russell Crowe and the Bee Gees :lol:


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

did i spell pommy wrong? Oh you'll have to forgive me i'm just an ignorant convict haha


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Mmm, yeah I guess that's why Aussies have inherited the sense of humour from us then ? With having little Johnny as PM we need a good sense of 
humour. :lol: 



Parko said:


> Very true Boa, it must be some kind of survival instinct, laugh or go insane. :wink:
> .


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

I wouldn't call you a convict :wink: 



Parko said:


> did i spell pommy wrong? Oh you'll have to forgive me i'm just an ignorant convict haha


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## Parko (May 20, 2006)

Hey i'm not arguing with ya mate, agree totally, all politicians are a joke we have to laugh at or they'll send us crazy.


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Well at least George Dubya loves him :lol:


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## mciver (May 20, 2006)

*ho hum*

Dear me,
I say again kiddies, It’s called the pursuit of knowledge.

And please let me apologise humbly for interpereting the original thread component as calling for a ban. Heaven for bid the ban word.

I WAS WRONG! WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, I should be beaten with a cat o' nine tails for that indescretion, and I haven't waited for any judication here either. No, I've sentenced myself to 24 hours of self flagellation.

You are right and I am wrong. I feel better now I've sad it (phew).

Now I'm going away to a quiet place to just think and consider things like bits of raffia and why needles go blunt when it's not really convenient and george dubblya and fruit and rusel cro and the BGS and lobstas and yhe spelling of pommiey. Oh God I think I'm loosing it.

Wow I didn't loose the thread for a second.

Say what!

Have a nice Sat nite every one and ease up on the loudmouth soup a bit, it's starting to show.

Best regards Paul


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## Retic (May 20, 2006)

Ah yeah OK. :?


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## serpenttongue (May 20, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> If exotics are illegal in australia......why do some shops sell the books to keep them ?
> I cant understand why there are books for sale on the care of leopard geckos, corn snakes, milk snakes, green iggys etc !!



Just because we cant keep the animals doesnt mean when cant still have an interest in them and learn about them. I have many books on reptiles of the world. I got them as a kid and to this day still enjoy reading about foreign snakes that i will never keep.

I would love to get my hands on the Ball Python videos by Dave and Tracey barker. I have no intention of ever keeping Ball Pythons, but as a python enthusiast i still want to watch the videos and learn from them - it's about pythons!!!! And i love pythons!!!  

How many of us will be buying the 2nd volume of Barkers "Pythons of the World"? Lots of us i'd imagine. But why? It will be full of exotics!! :wink:


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## Hickson (May 20, 2006)

When I was younger I used to buy a lot of books. petshops didn't sell books on reptiles in NSW, so I had to buy them from normal bookstores. And they know diddly-squat about state reptile licensing laws. If the books sell, they stock them.

As has already been stated, keeping practises can be applied to a range of analogues and techniques can be adapted for specific conditions. The species might differ but the principles remain the same.



Hix


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## Scale_Addiction (May 21, 2006)

> I must admit I have often wondered why these shops ell books on those species you mentioned because to be honest there aren't Australian equivalents for most of them. Now there are many 1000's of exotics in this country so maybe the shop owners are just providing information for all the illegal keepers ?



-lmfao-


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## Greebo (May 21, 2006)

Speaking of books, I picked up a copy of Eric Worrell's "Song of the Snake" today at a book fair. It was printed in 1958. It certainly is interesting reading so far. It's amazing just how much times have changed.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 21, 2006)

what a great score greebo, my mum bought me that book when i was a kid


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## Moreliaman (May 21, 2006)

serpenttongue said:


> Just because we cant keep the animals doesnt mean when cant still have an interest in them and learn about them. I have many books on reptiles of the world. I got them as a kid and to this day still enjoy reading about foreign snakes that i will never keep.
> 
> I would love to get my hands on the Ball Python videos by Dave and Tracey barker. I have no intention of ever keeping Ball Pythons, but as a python enthusiast i still want to watch the videos and learn from them - it's about pythons!!!! And i love pythons!!!
> 
> How many of us will be buying the 2nd volume of Barkers "Pythons of the World"? Lots of us i'd imagine. But why? It will be full of exotics!! :wink:



Atlast, healthy debate! 
hi, serpenttongue, i can see your intrest is your reason, but why have a book that concentrates on the care of an illegal animal that your never going to own ? also, the barkers book cant really be included, theres snakes in there that most europeans will never own too ! plus it does cover australian species.( i like royals too)




Hix said:


> As has already been stated, keeping practises can be applied to a range of analogues and techniques can be adapted for specific conditions. The species might differ but the principles remain the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Hix



I find that comment hard to swallow hix when no one on here could really be bothered to reply to this thread + http://www.aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=18996 :? 
(directed at no one!!)




africancichlidau said:


> > Or just me being british ?
> 
> 
> 
> Look me up when you get here and I'll tell you why you should never say that



:? Will do...........on a scale of 1-10 how bad is it ? :wink:


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## Spike14 (May 21, 2006)

> I cant understand why there are books for sale on the care of leopard geckos, corn snakes, milk snakes, green iggys etc !! Yes I know there are some exotics in aus but if you sell the books then I would have thought it would have given some the impression that exotics are ok in aus, if you can buy the books !!



The reason we have the books are because they know we have the exotics and they want us to look after them properly :roll:


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## Hickson (May 21, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> I find that comment hard to swallow hix when no one on here could really be bothered to reply to this thread + http://www.aussiepythons.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=18996 :?
> (directed at no one!!)



Just because nobody could be bothered to reply to the thread doesn't make my original statement wrong. 

You didn't reply either. I'm guessing most people here, like me, assumed that you would answer it, as you probably have more experience with Boas than most of us.



Hix


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp that some people like to learn things simply because they are curious? They just want to gain knowledge of things that interest them. If there was a book about keeping birds of prey in captivity i'd be extremely interested to read it though i will never be able to keep them personally, i'm just interested that's all, there's no big conspiracy, as far as i know there is no big black market in birds of prey which is influencing my interest, it is simply a hunger for knowledge, why is that so difficult to accept? Maybe i want to read a book about politics, do i want to be a politician? No. Do i even want to influence politics, no. Do i want to understand it anyway? Perhaps. I could give a thousand different subjects as examples of things people read though they will never apply that knowledge to their life in any big way. In saying that it has already been pointed out that there was really only a few books on native reptile husbandry when i was a kid, plenty on native reptiles but few with in depth captive care. Moreliaman I really think your trying to make some kind of debate out of something which is far simpler than your leading yourself to think.


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## serpenttongue (May 21, 2006)

serpenttongue said:


> Just because we cant keep the animals doesnt mean when cant still have an interest in them and learn about them. I have many books on reptiles of the world. I got them as a kid and to this day still enjoy reading about foreign snakes that i will never keep.
> 
> I would love to get my hands on the Ball Python videos by Dave and Tracey barker. I have no intention of ever keeping Ball Pythons, but as a python enthusiast i still want to watch the videos and learn from them - it's about pythons!!!! And i love pythons!!!
> 
> How many of us will be buying the 2nd volume of Barkers "Pythons of the World"? Lots of us i'd imagine. But why? It will be full of exotics!! :wink:





Moreliaman said:


> Atlast, healthy debate!
> hi, serpenttongue, i can see your intrest is your reason, but why have a book that concentrates on the care of an illegal animal that your never going to own ?



Just because we can't own them doesnt mean we can't do the next best thing and drool over pictures of them in books  .

I dont want to own exotics, but i am a person that is obsessed with pythons and i appreciate and respect all reptiles species for what they are and how they have evolved, and i like to feed my fasination by learning about the habits and lifestyles of these species, regardless of where they may be found. It doesn't matter that they're from another country, they're a lifeform that's on Earth with us now!!!! And they deserve to be appreciated for what they are, regardless of where we who covet these animals may be on this planet  I think this is a good enough reason to buy a book on reptiles from foreign lands.



Moreliaman said:


> also, the barkers book cant really be included, theres snakes in there that most europeans will never own too ! plus it does cover australian species.( i like royals too)



What Aust species will be covered in Vol 2?

There will be species covered in the book that will be exotic to Europeans and Aussies but i bet most of us python fanatics will still buy the book, even though we'll never own those species.


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

I'm not sure if I am the only person to understand what Moreliaman was asking but it has nothing to do with what people seem to be saying. These books are basically all about husbandry of species we can't legally keep.
I can understand it to some degree as most people seem to desire exotics of some kind.


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

He asked why they are sold we answered him, if you can't understand that then what moreliaman said in his question must be correct ''it must be a british thing''


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

Yeah that must be it :roll: 



Parko said:


> He asked why they are sold we answered him, if you can't understand that then what moreliaman said in his question must be correct ''it must be a british thing''


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

Oh well great at least we have established what the problem is. Let me ask you this Boa, have you ever in your entire life read something which didn't apply to your life yet been interested anyway? Ever?


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

No


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

Not even a newspaper hey? Never read or heard about something called Neanderthall man? Or ever read about dinosaurs? Okay, if you are that simple minded then that is fine, be satisfied with what is within your little box. Doesn't mean the rest of us can't be interested in the world and what is within it. If you really don't get it then there is no point trying to explain any further.


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

No :lol: Actually I should add that it's funny that I am the one always pushing people to look at reptiles from overseas and learn about them, not necessarily from husbandry books as they are far from the best source, yet I am being referred to as simple minded and not wanting to look outside of my little box. Anyone that actually knows me would no doubt have a chuckle I think. :lol:


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

Parko said:


> If you really don't get it then there is no point trying to explain any further.


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

And I said no, you need to chill a little I think, it's really not that important. :lol: 



Parko said:


> Parko said:
> 
> 
> > If you really don't get it then there is no point trying to explain any further.


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## Parko (May 21, 2006)

Thanks for your advice, but really mate i'm not even warm yet, let alone heated. Good luck with yourself.


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## Retic (May 21, 2006)

:lol:


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## AntaresiaLady (May 22, 2006)

I don't think 'Exotic' books should be sold in Pet Stores. 

Sell them in a bookshop, on the net...wherever you like. But don't sell them in Pet Stores, alongside care books for Australian animals. It sends a dumb message. If I want to know about African Mamba's....I'll do the SMART thing....go to a library...or look it up on the net as a last resort. I certainly wouldn't think of my local pet store as a 'resource' for researching foreign species. 

JMTCW.


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## Retic (May 22, 2006)

I think that was Moreliamans message, glad someone else saw it


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## AGAMIDAE (May 22, 2006)

well book shops get them in coz they are cheap and nasty lol...nar not really untill the last few years Australai really was behind the 8 ball in captive husbandry in the form of books info, and alot of the American books touched on some of our own species, so it was take what you can.....


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## Scale_Addiction (May 22, 2006)

> yet I am being referred to as simple minded and not wanting to look outside of my little box



haha - parko, your miles off chief.


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## Retic (May 22, 2006)

:lol: Yes I did find that one funny myself.



Azztech said:


> > yet I am being referred to as simple minded and not wanting to look outside of my little box
> 
> 
> 
> haha - parko, your miles off chief.


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## munkee (May 22, 2006)

Lol. Miles and Miles.

When I was getting into snakes over the last number of years I found a fair amount of info on ball pythons to begin with and I did a lot of reading about them mostly as that what was available to me. I haven't been able to find the level of detail I want in books most of the time. Having read about boas and ball pythons did not make me want to keep them illegally I just pursued the information I could find.

My thoughts anyways.


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