# Help with anti-captivity mum



## Aidan Swanson (Dec 10, 2019)

please help me my mum is suddenly saying that she hates the fact that reptiles and invertebrates are being held in captivity and that its cruel, ect. And im trying to explain to her everything that I can and I need a good way to persuade her that reptiles and invertebrates in captivity aren't that bad...
please help...


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## nuttylizardguy (Dec 10, 2019)

Sorry kid, her home , her money, so she sets the rules .

My advise is wait til you are old enough to have your own home , like anything worth having, it's worth waiting for. She'll have no say about what animals you have as pets when you no longer live under her roof and are no longer dependent on her financially.


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## Aidan Swanson (Dec 10, 2019)




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## Shikito123 (Dec 12, 2019)

how old are you? Do you have reptiles already or are you wanting to get your first? 
best way to try and convince her is to say that most reptiles spend a lot of the time in burrows and hides. You could also tell her that you will have the largest enclosure possible for the adult reptile (juvis will freak out in large spaces that don't have enough hides). 
Thats probably the only thing you can really say... 
Does your family have any pets? like a dog or cat? if you do you can say that cats and dogs have a large home range and she is fine with having them but not a reptile that has a smaller range? 
If you dont have any pets then you cant make an argument, and will just have to wait to move out. Say that to her as well. that once you get to a certain age you want to move out so you can have some reptiles. 
I did that with my grandfather (i live with him) and he is moving to a larger house and said if I stay I can have the animals I want (within reason like not bajillions). Might work with your mum? 
Good luck mate! 
p.s I have also discovered, if you keep going on about these animals you want, they do eventually cave. I don't mean go and whine about how much you want this animal, I mean research them and just randomly pop into conversation with a "did you know this species does this". believe me, t works. My grandfather is the most stubborn man on the planet and he caved. I really wanted a macaw since i was 4 years old. after 7 years of researching and just randomly saying facts about them, he caved and actually got me a macaw! Now he is alot easier to convince to let me have animals. I now have 3 fish tanks, a blue and gold macaw, 2 indian ringnecks and 4 snakes. 
My method of researching and telling them facts has also worked with my friends parents. His dad hates snakes, absolutely hates them, and he's caved and is letting my friend get a snake. Took a few months of convincing and giving facts but it works. 

Good luck!!!


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## Sdaji (Dec 12, 2019)

nuttylizardguy said:


> Sorry kid, her home , her money, so she sets the rules .
> 
> My advise is wait til you are old enough to have your own home , like anything worth having, it's worth waiting for. She'll have no say about what animals you have as pets when you no longer live under her roof and are no longer dependent on her financially.



What a horribly defeatist attitude!

I agree with 'her house, her rules', but why would you encourage someone to be defeatist and spineless enough to not try to change their parent's mind? The parents have the final say but there's nothing wrong with a child explaining their situation and in some cases educating their parents. Good grief, probably more than half the reptile keepers I know, including myself, were initially told they were not allowed to have reptiles but were spirited enough to talk their parents around. If your parents think it's dangerous you have an opportunity to teach them otherwise. If they think it's cruel you have the opportunity to teach them otherwise. If the child is genuinely just not responsible and the parents are smart they will maintain their stance any that's healthy, but the parents might say the child can have a snake if they demonstrate that they have developed enough responsibility, which is an opportunity for the child to develop as a person.

Imagine how dull and stagnant everyone would be if every time their parents said no to anything they completely gave up on trying until they moved out! If you're passionate about something you'll work towards it. This attitude will continue on in life. If you just limply accept 'no' every time you hear it, you're going to be a very dull, uninteresting person. This is terrible advice for a child.
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Aidan Swanson said:


> please help me my mum is suddenly saying that she hates the fact that reptiles and invertebrates are being held in captivity and that its cruel, ect. And im trying to explain to her everything that I can and I need a good way to persuade her that reptiles and invertebrates in captivity aren't that bad...
> please help...



If I had a dollar for every time I'd seen this situation I could buy all the beer and roast peanuts I wanted for at least the next hour. The good news I have for you is that in most cases where the child is keen, the parent comes around, and I can tell you some of the strategies which are most successful.

It probably goes without saying, but incessant nagging and whinging usually isn't productive.

If your parents are generally rational, you can explain that reptiles in captivity are generally much happier, healthier and longer lived than wild reptiles, so it's not actually cruel. This is a genuine fact, but will only be convincing if your parents are rational. Many people are quite irrational and just believe what they want to rather than what the evidence says.

Talking about how passionate you are (without being repetitive and annoying) is likely to help. Just mention that you read a book or did some research or want to see the reptile house at the zoo or have an interest in learning about reptiles or working with them in any way you might be able to. Make sure you do it in a positive way, not a pushy or annoying way (this is important with the entire process, and is also generally a good way to deal with most people most of the time).

If your parents are more emotional than logical, showing them examples of positive interactions between humans and captive reptiles might help. Keep in mind that there are some people who keep animals badly or interact with animals badly and you don't want to expose them to that! (You also don't want to be like that yourself). If you have the opportunity, introduce your parents to adults who are positive and knowledgeable and will be able to help talk your parents around. If your parents think their child doesn't really know what they're talking about, seeing adults who can back you up will be very persuasive. Be careful though, there are some pretty... ummm.... questionable characters in the reptile world who your parents may not like and meeting them could be counterproductive.

Think about what will motivate your parents. You can find examples of people who have become more happy thanks to having pets, and reptiles are very convenient, quiet pets which don't scratch the couch or pee on the carpet. Having an interest in reptiles and invertebrates can spark up the imagination and creativity of a young person which can help in their personal development or pursuit of a career.

Best of luck and feel free to keep us updated with your progress and ask any questions you might have. Definitely let us know if (when!) you're successful


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## -Adam- (Dec 12, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> If you just limply accept 'no' every time you hear it, you're going to be a very dull, uninteresting person. This is terrible advice for a child.



But a very wise advise for a husband.  *jks*.




I'm not expert with snakes, but I am a parent so I kinda hope my 2c worth may be of value. Plus I think the issue has nothing to do with reptiles, but is a relationship matter...

@Aidan Swanson - Regardless of what happens - show respect to your mum. You can disagree with her respectfully. Try and use other negative reinforcement methods and you're just making life worse for both of you.

Treat her with the respect that you want to be treated with (well more - she is your mother). Show her that while you disagree with what she is saying - you respect her opinion and you want to understand it more. That maybe you are wrong and she's right - and if so you want to learn instead of taking the "I'm right and I'm not going to listen to anyone differently" attitude that much of the population these days is showing. Show her that you care about her thought and concerns and start studying it. Don't just look for answers that support yours - look for answers that support hers too. (Quick hint - PETA have an article on keeping snakes and how cruel it is - which I think is complete garbage but it would be a good 'opposition' paper for you to consider).

Why do this? Well - firstly above all to gather a variety of information so you can work through it and come to your own *informed* conclusion. At the moment you know what you want the conclusion to be and have a belief on what you think is truth - but can you be sure? How? Why? Because that's what you believe and you found some people on the internet with same thoughts? Have you been willing to listen to any points that go against what you believe?

Do you want to go through life learning more real truth, or do you want to go through life only listening to people who side with what you want to believe and thus remain in ignorance for the times that you will be wrong.

If the latter - then why shouldn't your mum take the same approach? Take the approach and attitude that you want her to take too.

When I see someone doing something dumb and ill informed I realise I'm part of the same species - and I have just as much capability to do the same dumb things unless I'm willing to question myself and want to improve.

You can still have your convictions - but be willing to believe that you may be wrong in a matter when someone else gives an argument - and be willing to search what the truth is). That is the #1 thing I want my kids to learn more than anything else. Value real truth - not what's convenient and what they already believe - but be willing to question everything to search out the truth in matters.

Secondly once you do this (and I'm taking a assumption here on your conclusion) - I suspect you'll find a trend. One side of the debate will have more solid references and conclusions, and the other side will have very poor statements that are easily pulled apart. This will give you a greater chance of understanding the truth of the matter - not just what you believe (or your mum).

Take time to do this. Evaluate and critisise both sides. Question not only their conclusions but why do they come to their conclusions? Have they made conclusions based on a predetermined outcome to start with (ie, what they want the conclusion to be and then are looking for 'evidence' to support this), or have they had an open mind about it before they started research. You'll be surprised just how easy that is to spot. I looked at the PETA thing and it was so obvious that they weren't interested in sharing truth - they were just looking for stuff to throw together to push their own belief and agenda from the beginning. (Which is unfortunately quite popular these days but one of the reasons why I suggested their article. It's pretty easy for someone with an open mind to see the con they're trying to pull).

Let your mum see what you're studying. Print out various resources from both sides and let her see you studying both sides of the matter. She'll probably suspect you're just looking for evidence to prove her wrong - but quietly study away - allow her to see that you're including articles that side with her concerns and are studying both.

Once you've done that - ask your mum if she'll sit down with you and go over what you've found. Not that you want to change her mind - but that you have found points on both sides and want to get her thoughts too - what makes sense to her, what doesn't, and why. Tell her that you're wanting to learn how to find what's really true in life (regardless of the topic) so you just don't accept what someone in authority says but rather when you're told something you don't agree with you want to learn how you can find out what is the truth instaead of just being a yes person, or alternatively a stubborn ignorant one. Ask her how she would go about finding the truth in the matter. - I'd say your cred will go up significantly in her books if you do, and she may join you in the search at this stage.

But - don't do this as a con to get your own way. Be legit about it. Go about it with the sincerity that you would like your mum to also show in the matter.

If you can't start this whole step off with the thought that you may learn something and be wrong to start with - don't even bother. It's your sincerity that will win the day (regardless of where the conclusions fall) - not a con. And trust me - kids think they get it over their parents more than they really do.

It's not a magic pill - and doesn't guarantee that you're going to get what you're chasing. It's most likely nothing like the advise you wanted or expected to hear.

But I could not be more proud of my child if they came to me with something they disagreed with me on - and was genuinely wanting to try and get an understanding of my side of the matter so they could work out where the truth really lies. I'd be so keen to assist them with it that I'm sure if I was in the wrong and they were in the right - I'd learn something valuable through the process too.

Hope this is of help. As mentioned, I've got little experience with snakes - but I've got a lot as a parent.


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## Aidan Swanson (Dec 12, 2019)

wow thanks for all the help guys...
to answer some questions:
I am 14 and a half yrs old.
I have 2 blueys and had them for almost 2 yrs now
My family does have a dog and used to have guinea pigs, but my mother was alright with animals in captivity before she suddenly "realized" that they shouldn't be in captivity in "small cages" (btw my bluey enclosure is not small) and then I tried to pull the dog card out and she said that dogs have been domesticated animals for ages now and its 'different'.
and also before i finally got my blueys i did exactly what you did @Shikito123 lol i researched for ages and ages and then I convinced my parents and now im in love with these animals!
In conclusion I guess what i'll do is just not nag her to much about it and just give it some time maybe..? (that's what my dad said and he btw doesn't mind at all if I get more animals)
anyway thx for all the tips and helpfullness guys...


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## nuttylizardguy (Dec 12, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> What a horribly defeatist attitude!
> 
> I agree with 'her house, her rules', but why would you encourage someone to be defeatist and spineless enough to not try to change their parent's mind? The parents have the final say but there's nothing wrong with a child explaining their situation and in some cases educating their parents. Good grief, probably more than half the reptile keepers I know, including myself, were initially told they were not allowed to have reptiles but were spirited enough to talk their parents around. If your parents think it's dangerous you have an opportunity to teach them otherwise. If they think it's cruel you have the opportunity to teach them otherwise. If the child is genuinely just not responsible and the parents are smart they will maintain their stance any that's healthy, but the parents might say the child can have a snake if they demonstrate that they have developed enough responsibility, which is an opportunity for the child to develop as a person.
> 
> ...



Not the place as total strangers on a message board to create trouble in this kids home between the child and the parents .

The kid needs to learn that pester-power wont always get mom to cave in , nor should it , and that part of life and growing up is accepting that you wont get everything you want in life .the moment you decide (perhaps on a whim) you want it. 

Would you appreciate total strangers interceding when you've told your children the answer to something they want is "no" ?
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Aidan Swanson said:


> wow thanks for all the help guys...
> to answer some questions:
> I am 14 and a half yrs old.
> I have 2 blueys and had them for almost 2 yrs now
> ...



You can legally leave home at 16 years old , more likely at 18 years old when you've finished school , so you only have maybe 4 years to wait til you can leave home and become financially self sufficient .
Cultivate a little patience.


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## Shikito123 (Dec 13, 2019)

nuttylizardguy, 
He obviously asked for help and our opinions... Dont need to pester, just keep showing interest in the animals. 

Aidan, 
Did something happen to cause her to change so suddenly? Do you still show interest in them? Keep handling and showing interest. Hopefully, she changes her mind.


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## Sdaji (Dec 13, 2019)

nuttylizardguy said:


> Not the place as total strangers on a message board to create trouble in this kids home between the child and the parents .
> 
> The kid needs to learn that pester-power wont always get mom to cave in , nor should it , and that part of life and growing up is accepting that you wont get everything you want in life .the moment you decide (perhaps on a whim) you want it.
> 
> ...



No one proposed pester power. Strange you would say this considering I'd already specifically warned against it and I wasn't the only one.

Absolutely, as long as they advocated ongoing respect I would be happy for a stranger to encourage my child to use legitimate critical thinking and logical reasoning with any other person including myself. I think to blindly believe any rule without question is abhorrent, and any authority who will not entertain any amount of questioning deserves no authority. Your attitude is quite terrible. It encourages spineless people who will grow up to be pushed around by bullies. It encourages complacency when faced with illegitimate authority. If a law is incorrect we should generally follow the law, but we should seek to change it. As some point things can get bad enough for people to actively oppose it (protest or outright revolution). If a parent's decision is wrong a child should generally follow it but it's okay to seek to change it in an appropriate way. Doing so is a healthy part of growing up. This is a good example
f a parent's decision is too bad the child should actively oppose the parents. There are cases where outright disobedience is entirely appropriate. Wisdom allows people to understand which situation warrants which response. Your spineless attitude of universal and unquestioning compliance is disappointing.


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## Aidan Swanson (Dec 14, 2019)

Shikito123 said:


> nuttylizardguy,
> He obviously asked for help and our opinions... Dont need to pester, just keep showing interest in the animals.
> 
> Aidan,
> Did something happen to cause her to change so suddenly? Do you still show interest in them? Keep handling and showing interest. Hopefully, she changes her mind.


Oh well she went on a 2 week silent meditation retreat in a rainforest in NSW and then she basically came back and then I asked her a question about if I can get this or that blah bkah blah and then she said "i don't know about this whole captivity thing"...
And yes I do show interest and I take them out quiet often...


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## nuttylizardguy (Dec 14, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> No one proposed pester power. Strange you would say this considering I'd already specifically warned against it and I wasn't the only one.
> 
> Absolutely, as long as they advocated ongoing respect I would be happy for a stranger to encourage my child to use legitimate critical thinking and logical reasoning with any other person including myself. I think to blindly believe any rule without question is abhorrent, and any authority who will not entertain any amount of questioning deserves no authority. Your attitude is quite terrible. It encourages spineless people who will grow up to be pushed around by bullies. It encourages complacency when faced with illegitimate authority. If a law is incorrect we should generally follow the law, but we should seek to change it. As some point things can get bad enough for people to actively oppose it (protest or outright revolution). If a parent's decision is wrong a child should generally follow it but it's okay to seek to change it in an appropriate way. Doing so is a healthy part of growing up. This is a good example
> f a parent's decision is too bad the child should actively oppose the parents. There are cases where outright disobedience is entirely appropriate. Wisdom allows people to understand which situation warrants which response. Your spineless attitude of universal and unquestioning compliance is disappointing.


mum knows her child better than we all do, so if she says no , she has good reasons for that , even if she isn't prepared to "negotiate" .

The kid will encounter lots of times when told NO and it's not open to negotiation , especially in the workforce and at uni and in situations where maybe those in charge place restrictions .


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## Sdaji (Dec 14, 2019)

nuttylizardguy said:


> mum knows her child better than we all do, so if she says no , she has good reasons for that , even if she isn't prepared to "negotiate" .
> 
> The kid will encounter lots of times when told NO and it's not open to negotiation , especially in the workforce and at uni and in situations where maybe those in charge place restrictions .



Your attitude is pitiful and as a fellow human being you disappoint me.


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## nuttylizardguy (Dec 14, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> Your attitude is pitiful and as a fellow human being you disappoint me.



Like as if I care what you think.
Suggest you keep your thinly vailed baits and trolling to yourself. Some admins on boards take exception posts like that I've quote ( can't delete it now …. ROFL …. I know how to deal with trolls ).


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## Sdaji (Dec 15, 2019)

nuttylizardguy said:


> Like as if I care what you think.
> Suggest you keep your thinly vailed baits and trolling to yourself. Some admins on boards take exception posts like that I've quote ( can't delete it now …. ROFL …. I know how to deal with trolls ).



Your lie is obvious; if you didn't care you wouldn't be responding. Likely you believe your own lie, but the reality is clear.

It's not baiting, just a statement intended at face value. To call it a troll is just stupid.

To blindly follow rules is weak and shows an obvious lack of character and spirit. To encourage others to do the same makes you a problem to societal values, especially when directing the advice at children.

You think I would be offended if someone suggested my child questioned my rules, showing that you think I am as weak and insecure as you are. All rules should be open to discussion, even if it's something as obviously well-based as 'you can't have ice-cream unless you wat your dinner first' or 'you can't have a Taipan as your first snake as a 12 year old child'. The parent can explain why and the child can learn why. At the other extreme, if a parent says the child must do something clearly immoral (as often does happen), a child with sufficient strength and wisdom will refuse and do whatever is within their ability to resist, including getting others including the police involved. Somewhere in between we have issues as in this example, where negotiation and discussion is clearly appropriate. Part of developing wisom and appropriate positive assertiveness is to recognise which rules fall where on the spectrum and dealing with them appropriately.

Your method of 'blindly follow all rules without question' is so repugnant. It literally retards a young person's ability to mature and develop as a healthy individual. It is an attitude which is conducive to the production of useful idiots which result in dysfunctional societies. As a fellow human being taken part in an open discussion on the topic it is my duty to bring this to your attention in the hope you may be capable of understanding it, and while that may be unlikely, it's important that the OP gets a healthier perspective.

It's a worry that you give the reasoning of 'in the future the kid will be faced with rules they can't change so they should get used to unquestioningly following rules as soon as possible'. Can you honestly not see how destructive an attitude that is? All people should always seek to understand rules, and whether by voting or becoming a leader themselves, or in extreme cases an activist, seeking to change rules. A society full of people like you will inevitably become a dystopian dictatorship. Fortunately not everyone is so weak and passive.


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## Aidan Swanson (Dec 15, 2019)

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