# Killing Snakes



## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

I just went camping for 3 days at Seal Rocks (near Forster on the East Coast) , it's a great spot
& I've been there a few times & always seen quite a few herps--mostly RBB's & Lacies.

There's a guy at that camping ground that does the rounds , makes sure you've paid to be
there , not lit fires on fire-ban days etc.
I asked him if he saw many Diamonds , to whiuch he replied " A snake's a snake to me mate",
He then went on to say that he had to kill them all the time because campers would come to him complaining about a snake near their tent.
This really bothered me because I've seen RBB's , Green tree snakes , a Diamond & a death adder on my four trips there. So half of what he kills is probably completely harmless.
It's a tricky situation because there are lots of kids around & he's gotta do something.
I suggested he do a snake identification & handling course.
It also makes me wonder about the hundreds of other camp-sites & if the same thing goes on at them too.


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## Kyro (Oct 8, 2007)

Who pays him to be there?


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## WombleHerp (Oct 8, 2007)

thats illegal (as you may already know) do the 5 yo thing and dob on him! i would after trying to convince him its not the right way, and he doesnt listen.


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## JasonL (Oct 8, 2007)

Was that at Myall Lakes NP?


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## bjbk18 (Oct 8, 2007)

I live near there, my parents manage a caravan park and if we ever get a snake or a python i go down to the van its near pick it up, put it in a bin and release it in the bush at the back. Even when its a brown snake we wont kill it last time we just scared it back into the bush as there wasnt many people the other time we called a guy in to remove it as there are to many little children around and he relases them at possum brush.


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

Kyro ---I don't know if he even get's paid . He kinda lives at the camp site , does odd jobs ,
keeps rowdy campers under control , etc. 

Herps rule
I did think about the 'dob-in' factor ; but think about it . it's a camp-site that families go to,
what do they do when a person comes to the managers & says 'there's a snake around my
tent" -----I suppose he could tell 'em to go to club Med , but that ain't going to happen.

I forgot to mention in my first post that I did tell him it was illegal.


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

JasonL said:


> Was that at Myall Lakes NP?


 
No , 'Camp Treachery' , near Seal Rocks.


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

bjbk18 said:


> I live near there, my parents manage a caravan park and if we ever get a snake or a python i go down to the van its near pick it up, put it in a bin and release it in the bush at the back. Even when its a brown snake we wont kill it last time we just scared it back into the bush as there wasnt many people the other time we called a guy in to remove it as there are to many little children around and he relases them at possum brush.


 
That's great , maybe you could make your services available to 'Camp Treachery' for a small fee.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Oct 8, 2007)

get the authorities to nail his redneck ass
all snakes are protected species
we got to look after them no one else will


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

What he is doing isnt actually illegal, its wrong IMO but legal. He sees them "all the same" therefore dosnt know what is or isnt harmless, its perfectly legal to kill snakes to protect yourself or others. Still you would think its pretty easy to tell a carpet python from a elapid :? but i guess thats easy for us to say since we have an interest in them.

IMO it makes more sense to kill(or keep if legal) a deadly snake rather than to relocate it where it dosnt belong although you may get a warm fuzzy feeling moving snakes long distances isnt a good thing at all(not directed at anyone just something to consider). Preferably they should be moved as little as possible or simply left alone whenever possible. Education is the best solution, but it can be hard when ppl dont want to be educated.

bjbk18, i would be very careful scaring brown snakes off, one day you might get more than you bargined for.


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## snakeman 93 (Oct 8, 2007)

Yeah but not in that case. It's illegal to kill any native animal without permission.


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

snakeman 93 said:


> Yeah but not in that case. It's illegal to kill any native animal without permission.


 
yea , that's my understanding of it too.


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## MoreliaMatt (Oct 8, 2007)

if people dont like snakes around their tents then why are they camping there?!!! that would be like me going to stay at a mates place and me not liking his parents and having a whinge and getting someone to knock them off!

its the snakes home!!! leave them be and the people should move if they dont like it!


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 8, 2007)

Whilst it IS illegal, and he is comfortable in his ignorance, there are loopholes written into the law that allow people to get away with it. Dobbing him in will get you nowhere. What you need to do is offer assistance and guidance, explain to the camp ground owner that having this guy killing native wildlife isn't exactly the best PR for a business that relies on people who enjoy seeing reptiles in the wild. Maybe donate an identification book so he can tell the difference between a Diamond and a Brown? Taking the aggressive approach will only make him act the same way out of spite...

Cheers


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## Renee (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...

Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel.

I'm sorry to say it, but, with toddlers running around, its just a risk that cant be taken. Weigh it up... the life of a snake, vs. the life of your child/sister/brother/nephew. Snakes are DANGEROUS! Just becasue some of us keep them as pets, it does not make them cute/cuddly, or less dangerous. They are a wild animal that has evolved over millons of years to KILL. That doesnt mean we kill every snake that crosses our path, we just need to keep them away from areas (like our homes), where we live, and our children play. 

And yes, they do live in australia's campimg grounds and parks... but so do we. Is the life of a million snakes worth the life of one of your children?


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Whilst it IS illegal, and he is comfortable in his ignorance, there are loopholes written into the law that allow people to get away with it. Dobbing him in will get you nowhere. What you need to do is offer assistance and guidance, explain to the camp ground owner that having this guy killing native wildlife isn't exactly the best PR for a business that relies on people who enjoy seeing reptiles in the wild. Maybe donate an identification book so he can tell the difference between a Diamond and a Brown? Taking the aggressive approach will only make him act the same way out of spite...
> 
> Cheers


 
Yes , as much as I hate what happens , I was taking that slant on it too .
A questionaire to all the camp sites would be intersting to see the results of.


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## Forensick (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> Is the life of a million snakes worth the life of one of your children?



i would like to say yes....
as i would with most animals....

what makes your child so great? or mine? or my sisters? that it is worth more than the extinction of a species WE got in the way of....

and either way, i grew up in the city, and was always taught if you see a snake, stay still and it will go away.... and what to do if it bit me...

how many people die each year from snake bites, and what % of them died because they either provoked the snake, or didnt treat the bite properly?


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## nuthn2do (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...
> 
> Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
> I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel.
> ...


Educate the kids, take them inside and the snake will be gone before you know it. Grabbing a shovel and smacking it is just reinforcing a knee jerk reaction that the kids will display later in life. 
Not comfortable with the occasional brown move back to town because every one you see there's 5 you haven't.


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...
> 
> Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
> I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel.
> ...


 

G'day Renee,

I understand what that you are protective of your children, but you could kill every brown snake that you get on your property and will have no effect on actually keeping them away. For everyone that you see, there is 100 that you don't. 

I think you are a bit misinformed about that danger and purpose of snakes in the wild. In a round-about way, snakes are designed to kill...just the same as nearly EVERY other species of animal on Earth. With the correct education and knowledge, they are no more dangerous than a horse, which no doubt you associate with fairly regularly considering that you live on property. 

I think the problem is that people think that by killing snakes it solves the almost non-existent "safety" problem they impose. People have been killing snakes for thousands of years and it hasn't solved the problem yet, so maybe everyone should start searching for a better solution.

Cheers


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## nuthn2do (Oct 8, 2007)

Sadly in NSW you cannot be fined for killing a snake if it's a threat to human life. No one would bother arguing this in court because the fact is that if someone has killed it they were close enough to be in danger.


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## RevDaniel (Oct 8, 2007)

It is a shame that reptiles cnd humans cannot live in complete harmony of each other.


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## alex_c (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...
> 
> Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
> I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel.
> ...


no i would not kill it i would move it. because honestly do you actually think elapids wake up and say to themselves today im going to find a person and bite them? and is it really wrong for the snake to defend itself? put yourself in their shoes and think of how they feel when confronted by something 100times their size


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## waruikazi (Oct 8, 2007)

cris said:


> What he is doing isnt actually illegal, its wrong IMO but legal. He sees them "all the same" therefore dosnt know what is or isnt harmless, its perfectly legal to kill snakes to protect yourself or others. Still you would think its pretty easy to tell a carpet python from a elapid :? but i guess thats easy for us to say since we have an interest in them.
> 
> IMO it makes more sense to kill(or keep if legal) a deadly snake rather than to relocate it where it dosnt belong although you may get a warm fuzzy feeling moving snakes long distances isnt a good thing at all(not directed at anyone just something to consider). Preferably they should be moved as little as possible or simply left alone whenever possible. Education is the best solution, but it can be hard when ppl dont want to be educated.
> 
> bjbk18, i would be very careful scaring brown snakes off, one day you might get more than you bargined for.



Why do you say it is bad to relocate?


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## waruikazi (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...
> 
> Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
> I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel.
> ...



Do you have ANY IDEA of how most people get bitten?


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...
> 
> Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
> I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel.
> ...


 
As a parent myself , I can easily understand your concern for your kids , but , I don't really
get that thing of killing an animal that bites a human . You read about it with sharks too ,
as Ghandi said ---an eye-for-an-eye only makes the whole world blind.


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## waruikazi (Oct 8, 2007)

There is a big difference between snakes and other preditors like sharks and crocs. We are potential prey for sharks and crocs, so those animals that take a person has a real potential to repeat an attack. Snakes (aussie ones atleast) do not prey on people, they will get away from people if they can because to them we are a predator. Unless it was inside your house and could not be safely removed i see absolutely no reason to kill one.


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## Jungletrans (Oct 8, 2007)

The best statistic on this subject is the fact that lots of people get bitten while trying to kill snakes . Make it legal to kill snakes but only by stomping on them wearing thongs .


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## alex_c (Oct 8, 2007)

Jungletrans said:


> The best statistic on this subject is the fact that lots of people get bitten while trying to kill snakes . Make it legal to kill snakes but only by stomping on them wearing thongs .


ah good old darwinism lol


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> There is a big difference between snakes and other preditors like sharks and crocs. We are potential prey for sharks and crocs, so those animals that take a person has a real potential to repeat an attack. Snakes (aussie ones atleast) do not prey on people, they will get away from people if they can because to them we are a predator. Unless it was inside your house and could not be safely removed i see absolutely no reason to kill one.


 
I can see the point of killing a croc or shark if it's actually got hold of your leg , but I still don't
get the mentality of going out hunting for the croc/shark/snake that bit or killed the human ,
it doesn't make it better , & how do you know you got the culprit anyway untill you cut it open.
I think it's pointless & just some sort of retribution killing.


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## urodacus_au (Oct 8, 2007)

If you dont like snakes, dont go camping. Simple.

As for killing sharks, thats a redneck response too. Remember the fact that we dont belong in the ocean but we choose to enter it knowing the risk. If the odd human gets picked off its no great loss, not like Homo sapiens are facing extinction. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions, if you dont want to be eaten by a shark, dont go swimming in their backyard!

Jordan


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## m.punja (Oct 8, 2007)

here here jordy!


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## Renee (Oct 8, 2007)

Forensick said:


> i would like to say yes....
> as i would with most animals....
> 
> what makes your child so great? or mine? or my sisters? that it is worth more than the extinction of a species WE got in the way of....
> ...


 
Forensick, think about what you are saying. Are you seriously saying that you would rather sacrifice your child than cause the extinction of a species of dangerous snake? You obviously dont have children Forensick, or you have no concept of the value of human life! I love snakes too! Keeping them is wonderful, its a fantastic and fulfilling hobby. But I would gladly sacrifice all of my snakes to save the life of a child. And I'm sure that if you thought about it, you would too.


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

urodacus_au said:


> If you dont like snakes, dont go camping. Simple.
> 
> As for killing sharks, thats a redneck response too. Remember the fact that we dont belong in the ocean but we choose to enter it knowing the risk. If the odd human gets picked off its no great loss, not like Homo sapiens are facing extinction. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions, if you dont want to be eaten by a shark, dont go swimming in their backyard!
> 
> Jordan


 
completely agree.


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## waruikazi (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> Forensick, think about what you are saying. Are you seriously saying that you would rather sacrifice your child than cause the extinction of a species of dangerous snake? You obviously dont have children Forensick, or you have no concept of the value of human life! I love snakes too! Keeping them is wonderful, its a fantastic and fulfilling hobby. But I would gladly sacrifice all of my snakes to save the life of a child. And I'm sure that if you thought about it, you would too.



How are they instantly putting your child at risk? What you are doing is setting a bad example, making a child think that killing a snake is tha right thing to do. Forget the legalities, killing a snake is a very very dangerous thing to do, far more dangerous than letting it go about its business.


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> Forensick, think about what you are saying. Are you seriously saying that you would rather sacrifice your child than cause the extinction of a species of dangerous snake? You obviously dont have children Forensick, or you have no concept of the value of human life! I love snakes too! Keeping them is wonderful, its a fantastic and fulfilling hobby. But I would gladly sacrifice all of my snakes to save the life of a child. And I'm sure that if you thought about it, you would too.


 
Hi Renee ,
I'm not necessarily speaking for Forensick here , but I think you'd agree that there is a difference between forfeiting your snake collection to save your child as opposed to
killing a snake that wandered into your yard incase it might bite your child. I mean if you
have enough time to go a get a shovel to kill it , then you have enough time to take your
child indoors.


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## alteara (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee I can totally understand where you are coming from but when I lived on a property with young children I educated myself and the kids about the best way to keep snakes away from the house and yard and what to do if anyone saw one. 

Before I cleaned up everything that a snake could possibly be attracted to and got some geese to hang around the house we used to see some very dangerous snakes almost weekly. Once the cleanup was finished and the geese were inplace I never saw another snake near the house or the stables even during the cane crush when snakes were often flushed out. 

Its all about the education of everyone concerned and kids are never too young to learn about the danger of some of our wildlife.


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## Renee (Oct 8, 2007)

I agree with you natrix, maybe I was being a touch hasty is saying i would kill any snake that entered my backyard. And you are all right in saying that it is dangerous to try to kill a snake. I agree with that too. What I dont agree with, is Forensicks statement:

"what makes your child so great? or mine? or my sisters? that it is worth more than the extinction of a species WE got in the way of...."


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## Renee (Oct 8, 2007)

I agree with you too alteara. Good point.


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## GSXR_Boy (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee: Does that also mean you kill any spiders, wasps or bees that come into your yard?
They to have the potential to kill/harm your child.
Where do you draw the line??
Their trampoline or swing set probably has more chance of harming them.


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## GSXR_Boy (Oct 8, 2007)

urodacus_au said:


> If you dont like snakes, dont go camping. Simple.
> 
> As for killing sharks, thats a redneck response too. Remember the fact that we dont belong in the ocean but we choose to enter it knowing the risk. If the odd human gets picked off its no great loss, not like Homo sapiens are facing extinction. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions, if you dont want to be eaten by a shark, dont go swimming in their backyard!
> 
> Jordan


 
True.
They reckon you have more chance of being killed in a car accident or stung by a bee on the way to the beach then being killed by a shark.


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## Sdaji (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> Forensick, think about what you are saying. Are you seriously saying that you would rather sacrifice your child than cause the extinction of a species of dangerous snake? You obviously dont have children Forensick, or you have no concept of the value of human life! I love snakes too! Keeping them is wonderful, its a fantastic and fulfilling hobby. But I would gladly sacrifice all of my snakes to save the life of a child. And I'm sure that if you thought about it, you would too.



Renee, you are obviously passionate about human life, and nothing will change the way you feel about it, but not everyone feels the same way you do. Many people would think it is outright evil to sacrifice an entire species for the sake of one human life, even if it is their own. Many people have given their lives to try to save species, or in some cases even individual animals.

Many people who like snakes have been bitten by them, and defended the snake which had envenomated them. The people you're talking to can think about it all they like, they're not going to agree with you, just as you will never agree with them. If a snake had already bitten and killed someone I loved, well, it would be far too late to do any good by killing the snake, so why would you do so? Are you that spiteful? If it came down to killing a snake to protect someone I cared about, yes, I'd probably do it, but realistically, that situation is very unlikely to ever exist.


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## Renee (Oct 8, 2007)

GSXR_Boy said:


> Renee: Does that also mean you kill any spiders, wasps or bees that come into your yard?
> They to have the potential to kill/harm your child.
> Where do you draw the line??
> Their trampoline or swing set probably has more chance of harming them.


 
I am not at all suggesting that any spider/bee etc. should be killed, all I am suggesting is that elapid snakes are some of the most dangerous creatures in the world, and that I would give my life to protect my children, let alone kill a brown snake. Drastic? maybe... *Educating your children on the dangers of snakes - yes probably a better idea, I agree*. However, GSXR Boy, I'm sure you are a little misinformed in comparing venomous snakes to spiders and bees. I would rather come face to face with a bee any day, than with a king brown.


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## GSXR_Boy (Oct 8, 2007)

Oh okay silly me!!!! 
Here i was thinking a funnel web or redback or european wasps may have the potential to harm/kill your kids.


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## Forensick (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee

i would rather give my life than see a species exterminated, regardless of the species.

and that is because i DO have a VERY good understanding of the value of a human life.
i am one of 6 billion.
i, like you, and everyone else, are essentially nothing.
on the same level, an entire species IS something.

also, renee, you'll find more people ARE killed by bees (and even peanuts) than snakes, so by your logic, the bees should be killed as those pose an even GREATER risk.
not to mention your pet dog is more likely to kill your child than a snake


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## bjbk18 (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey chris, dont worry mate i take great care when scaring the browns off i keep my distance so there is no chance of being bit. But to my horror when i was talking to my father bout this thread he told me that someone come up to the office today and said there was a red belly black snake and they needed a shovel. My dad told them not to and quickly went down the back but by the time he got there the people had already found a shovel and killed it =(


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## SLACkra (Oct 8, 2007)

Lets bring on some glorious fun statistics. In australia every year approximatly 100 people get struck by lighting and 10 die. The number of people who die from car accidents is also in the thousands. Snake bite fatalities hang around the 3 a year or so. I therefore recomend before you go choping off the heads of as many snakes as you can find you should go out with a knife and puncture every single tire of every single car you can find! Sure it's illegal and not a nice thing to do but hey in the end if you puncture enough tires your children will be safe! 

People just label snakes as the "boogey man" the thing that will get you. In reallity if you want your children to be safe from snakes education and proper supervision when outside will make the world of difference compared to killing them. Take them to a zoo or reptile park and show them the venomous snakes and tell them about how dangerous they are but that they don't want to hurt them. Explain to them that the snakes will only hurt them if they try to pick them up or go to close to them because they are really afraid of humans. What you're doing now will only most likely produce the next generation of snake killing idiots. 



> i would rather give my life than see a species exterminated, regardless of the species.



Now I would never say that because there are many species of viruses etc that I would happily have become extinct.

Andrew


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## Renee (Oct 8, 2007)

Wow.... there is this thing that I want to say.... but I cant really say it on this site...


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## Renee (Oct 8, 2007)

Andrew, I take your point.


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## cement (Oct 8, 2007)

Getting back to treachery...................
I go there often its a great place and so full of wildlife.
I'm not sure who it is your talking about, but yeah imagine how much better for business ( not that treach is unpopular, try getting in at holiday time!) it would be if he knew about snakes and actually educated the public while he removed them.


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...
> 
> Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
> I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel. get a 410 or something, trying to kill a snake with a shovel is just stupid IMO, personally i wouldnt hold any grudges agaisnt a snake that bit anyone if it was an adder i would pick it up with a hook, a "brown" i would probably blast it unless it slithered off and i already had positive ID that it wasnt/was a mugla snake
> ...




I must say though i disagree alot of the rest of what you have posted from here on, personally i would think its nothing less than completely insane to put the life of an individual common unthreaten animal above the safety of you and your loved ones. Also forensick is a self confessed complete nutter dont take him too seriously.

As Alteara mentions destroying suitable habitat and food supply is the best and safest way of keeping them away from your house, but blasting the odd one that comes around your house isnt going to do anything.

Also most elapids are virtually harmless. its just that you dont see them without looking for them in many places.

Gordo, i was refering to relocating snakes over a long distance, not just moving it away back to bushland that is very close, im not really qualified to guess exact distances but im sure others would have some idea(it would also vary alot with differant variables). There are plenty of issues that come up with moving animals long distances to relocate them, being a carer you should do alot of research into this yourself(not having a go).


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## Mayo (Oct 8, 2007)

I choose to bite my tongue


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## MoreliaMatt (Oct 8, 2007)

what makes a human life more important than an elapids?

we are all just animals......

you might be sad if a snake kills one of your relatives by defending itself....
a snake might be sad if a person kills one of its relatives by sheer idiocy....


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## moosenoose (Oct 8, 2007)

natrix said:


> Hi Renee ,
> I'm not necessarily speaking for Forensick here , but I think you'd agree that there is a difference between forfeiting your snake collection to save your child as opposed to
> killing a snake that wandered into your yard incase it might bite your child. I mean if you
> have enough time to go a get a shovel to kill it , then you have enough time to take your
> child indoors.



Spot on Natrix.

There are plenty of ways to make your home and garden unattractive to snakes, so there is no need for the threat of shovels. When I go fly-fishing I come across plenty of tigers and most of the time catch them completely unaware that I was coming, without fail, they are happy to go off in the other direction if they are not threatened.

The only way my kids are going to get bitten by a snake will be via sheer accident. They have been shown and explained numerous times on the nature of snakes and what to do if they see one. Running off to whack the daylights out of an animal that is most likely scared to death with a shovel is certainly not the over-reacting hysterical solution I will ever teach my kids. Whatever happened to a mutual respect with these animals?? I bet the snake loses these sorts of confrontations with humans 99.999% of the time - no wonder they bite to protect themselves.

The bloke from the park should be removed, fined or both. I bet something would be done if I was in there beheading koalas because children were flipping out about the prospect of them jumping out of the trees and onto their heads! 

It's not acceptable hearing that this sort of thing is still going on - it makes illegally obtaining animals from the wild sound almost most like an act of salvation!


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## sockbat (Oct 8, 2007)

urodacus_au said:


> If you dont like snakes, dont go camping. Simple.
> 
> As for killing sharks, thats a redneck response too. Remember the fact that we dont belong in the ocean but we choose to enter it knowing the risk. If the odd human gets picked off its no great loss, not like Homo sapiens are facing extinction. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions, if you dont want to be eaten by a shark, dont go swimming in their backyard!
> 
> Jordan


 
Well said. We go bush walking around Canberra Botanical Gardens and when there are brown snake around the gardens post warning signs. It's a great idea and it makes ppl more aware


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## moosenoose (Oct 8, 2007)

ps: Anyone in their right mind wouldn't think twice about despatching a dangerous snake to save someone in danger, but it's a far-cry despatching a harmless Diamond python because someone is merely scared of the way it looks.


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

MoreliaMatt said:


> what makes a human life more important than an elapids?



Nothing really, what evidence or proof do you have to suggest either has value beyond there direct allies/family/whatever? If someone i dont know dies on the other side of the world i dont pretend that it bothers me, if a snake dies because someone killed it out of a genuine case of it threatening them or their loved ones i couldnt care either. If a goanna kills 1000 elapids in its life i would think its great because nature is awesome, same thing if a bhp kills 74 skinks 5 varanids, 64 elapids and a native rat by accident. Same thing if a brown snake kills however many herps etc. If a brown snake kills a person i would think they where stupid for letting it kill them, because we are far smarter than them(well mostly anyway) :lol:

If someone goes around killing either for no reason, i dont like it and if its any of my business i will try to influence in a positive way.


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> ps: Anyone in their right mind wouldn't think twice about despatching a dangerous snake to save someone in danger, but it's a far-cry despatching a harmless Diamond python because someone is merely scared of the way it looks.


 
Hi Moose ,
At what point would you say someone was in danger though ?
On your land , 50 meters away , 10 meters away , at the end of your bed ?


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

natrix said:


> Hi Moose ,
> At what point would you say someone was in danger though ?
> On your land , 50 meters away , 10 meters away , at the end of your bed ?



That is the thing, most ppl arnt in a position to accurately gauge the danger(this goes both ways too). You would be pretty foolish not to go on the side of caution IMO. It also depends on the inconvience you want, some ppl on this site have previously suggested you abandon your entire house to avoid a snake, because it was there first :lol:


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## -Peter (Oct 8, 2007)

*if its the place I'm thinking of its in a friggin National Park, crucify him!:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:*


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

don't be shy Peter , say what you really mean 

It's right next to Myall Lakes National Park , but I'm pretty sure 'Camp Treachery' isn't technically
national park . I heard that the land was owned by a now deceased wealthy man that left instructions in his Will for it to be used as a camping site , never to be 'developed'.


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## cris (Oct 8, 2007)

I think you should try being more direct peter :lol:
but yeah that is pretty screwed up if someone like that can work in a national park 
piece of five hit? kids and there slang these days...


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## addy (Oct 8, 2007)

i have a couple of things to say about this.
1, he obviously doesn't know anything about snakes, so i don't know why he feels his a good authority to kill them
2, if people are scared of australias wildlife....'Do Not Go Camping".


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## natrix (Oct 8, 2007)

This guy I've mentioned at 'Camp Treachery' goes by the name of 'Southy' , he's a big built guy
that's got an edge , carries a big carved mutha of a walking cane & wears sun glasses at 11PM .
He's not the proprietor of the site , just a guy that lives there in a tent , does odd jobs etc etc.
I still highly recommend the place though , great beaches , bush walks , snorkeling , birdlife,
and most importantly , a lot of herps . All for $20- a day per person.


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## aspidito (Oct 9, 2007)

Well a topic like this certainly stirs up a lot of thoughts & emotions but if the truth be known how many of you have actually been in a situation with a wild aggressive snake. Professional snake catchers are trained & have the correct tools & experience to capture & relocate venomous & non venomous snakes, as has been already mentioned most bites occur when attempting to capture or kill a snake, if you are not experienced & don’t have the equipment then leave them alone & they will not harm you. A few years ago I caught a 7 foot king brown that had been seen for a few days hanging around a very busy remote work site, it appeared the snake could not find its way out of the area which was frequented by people 24 hours a day, this large aggressive snake was definitely a threat to people. This particular evening a group had gathered around a bush where the snake was sighted, right outside the main walkway from the canteen, it had to be moved or captured or it would have bitten someone. Rather than see it killed I eventually managed to catch it & get it in a large blue garbage bag, the only thing available, I tied up the top of the bag & was so glad it was over, until I noticed blood running down my hand from a single puncture wound, it had bitten me on the hand through the bag. This is one of those rare instances where killing a snake would have been justified even though I was glad it was later released in a safe area, I have caught red bellied blacks in the past just to show my kids what a beautiful animal they are & then released them to go on their way, each situation is different, education is what most people need as it is very rare that killing any wild animal can be justified but if a person genuinely thinks his or her children are at risk they would do anything to protect them, I know that I would kill the last pair of the rarest snakes on earth if it meant saving my Childs life.


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## [email protected] (Oct 9, 2007)

*seal rocks*

:lol:i went to seal rocks last week and came across a tiger snake sunning its self on the foot path close to the beach. by the time i got my camera out it had disappeared. yeah there would be a lot of reptile species there, i know that the camp sites there but its surroundings all national park and its protectected so im wondering if that person under stands his duty of care for both, people and the wild life.

nice place seal rocks.....cant wait to go back there.
</IMG>


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## MoreliaMatt (Oct 9, 2007)

on sunday afternoon i pulled into a lookout to eat some lunch on my way to Reptile City.... For those in adelaide, it was the one on the windy bit of south road between Darlington and O'Halloran Hill....
i was sitting in the car eating when my girlfriend says, "ohh look theres a big snake!" I instantly looked over and saw a nice sized (approx 1.2m) brown snake, he crawled out the bushes to sun himself on the gravel in the open.... 
I got out the car and walked over towards him to put my rubbish in the bin and sure enough it just slithered off back towards the scrub.....

i was in so much danger i wish i had my shovel! lol


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## slim6y (Oct 9, 2007)

Up in the Daintree there's a small plant nursery which sells some awesome plants. But... In jars on their shelves are pickled snakes... A death adder in one... can't recall the others... I asked how they came across these snakes - they indicated 'road kill' - I can't honestly say that the death adder was any flatter than a non-road killed snake. But at the same - it certainly wasn't cut in half. So how it died and ended up pickled is anyones guess. But to keep it as a 'trophy' hmmmmm....


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## Renee (Oct 9, 2007)

aspidito said:


> Well a topic like this certainly stirs up a lot of thoughts & emotions but if the truth be known how many of you have actually been in a situation with a wild aggressive snake. Professional snake catchers are trained & have the correct tools & experience to capture & relocate venomous & non venomous snakes, as has been already mentioned most bites occur when attempting to capture or kill a snake, if you are not experienced & don’t have the equipment then leave them alone & they will not harm you. A few years ago I caught a 7 foot king brown that had been seen for a few days hanging around a very busy remote work site, it appeared the snake could not find its way out of the area which was frequented by people 24 hours a day, this large aggressive snake was definitely a threat to people. This particular evening a group had gathered around a bush where the snake was sighted, right outside the main walkway from the canteen, it had to be moved or captured or it would have bitten someone. Rather than see it killed I eventually managed to catch it & get it in a large blue garbage bag, the only thing available, I tied up the top of the bag & was so glad it was over, until I noticed blood running down my hand from a single puncture wound, it had bitten me on the hand through the bag. This is one of those rare instances where killing a snake would have been justified even though I was glad it was later released in a safe area, I have caught red bellied blacks in the past just to show my kids what a beautiful animal they are & then released them to go on their way, each situation is different, education is what most people need as it is very rare that killing any wild animal can be justified *but if a person genuinely thinks his or her children are at risk they would do anything to protect them, I know that I would kill the last pair of the rarest snakes on earth if it meant saving my Childs life.[/*quote]
> 
> Thankyou aspidito! This is the only point I am trying to make! And it is a very hypothetical statement, but one that every mother/father would agree with!
> 
> ...


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## Nikki. (Oct 9, 2007)

We've actually been there before .......anyone heard of Tea Gardens ?Thats near where i first EVER saw a snake when we were going 4 wd


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## moosenoose (Oct 9, 2007)

natrix said:


> Hi Moose ,
> At what point would you say someone was in danger though ?
> On your land , 50 meters away , 10 meters away , at the end of your bed ?



My idea of dispatching a dangerous snake would be if it crawled into a tent at night and frightened the daylights out of one of my kids and because they couldn't get out past the animal, hence the choice would be a logical one for me. Is that close enough for you


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## moosenoose (Oct 9, 2007)

Forensick said:


> moose... no agreeing with me.... not even a little



hehehe I'm staying out of this one


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## ozianimals (Oct 9, 2007)

cris said:


> What he is doing isnt actually illegal, its wrong IMO but legal. He sees them "all the same" therefore dosnt know what is or isnt harmless, its perfectly legal to kill snakes to protect yourself or others. Still you would think its pretty easy to tell a carpet python from a elapid :? but i guess thats easy for us to say since we have an interest in them.
> 
> IMO it makes more sense to kill(or keep if legal) a deadly snake rather than to relocate it where it dosnt belong although you may get a warm fuzzy feeling moving snakes long distances isnt a good thing at all(not directed at anyone just something to consider). Preferably they should be moved as little as possible or simply left alone whenever possible. Education is the best solution, but it can be hard when ppl dont want to be educated.
> 
> bjbk18, i would be very careful scaring brown snakes off, one day you might get more than you bargined for.


It is only legal to kill a snake if that snake is posing immediate danger to someones life.
This is what should be happening. He should be clearing the area of people and calling wildlife or wires to remove the snake.......Here is something I found on a reptile site which pretty much sums it all up........read the last two lines before the tips.



_Due to increasing development, Native wildlife, including reptiles, are being pushed into our suburbs. We, as humans, need to learn to live alongside these animals that have no choice but to try and survive in our neighbourhoods. More than likely, if you see a snake in your yard, if left be, it will move on by itself. Snakes do not attack people. Most snake bites occur when inexperienced people interfere with the animal. Leave the snake alone and it will go on its merry way. Legislation states "only those reptiles, requested to be moved by the occupier of the premises when human safety is compromised and not merely when the person is inconvenienced by the presence of a snake on the property" We will remove the animal if it is injured or in danger of being injured, or if the animal poses a risk to humans. This does not mean that we will move a snake from your garden "just in case". If you find a snake inside your home, we will relocate it back outside. To minimise the risk of a snake on your property.....



Keep your yard clean and tidy.
Keep grass shortV
Food sources such as rats are usually found around chook pens, aviaries and compost heaps. Keep these area's clean.
Fish ponds provide water, so keep the area around your pond neat.
Eliminate and hiding spots such as gaps in rockeries, rubbish piles.
Wear gloves when gardening.
Remember, once a snake has seen you, it will probably move on. They want nothing to do with humans. There is no foolproof way for inexperienced people to identify snakes, so call us and keep away from the animal._

This information taken from www.justreptiles.com.au


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## cris (Oct 9, 2007)

ozianimals said:


> Keep your yard clean and tidy.
> Keep grass shortV
> Food sources such as rats are usually found around chook pens, aviaries and compost heaps. Keep these area's clean.
> Fish ponds provide water, so keep the area around your pond neat.
> ...



Stuff that i try to do the opposite, the ecological impact of killing a few snakes is nothing compared to completely destroying the habitat and food supply of hundreds of other animals such as birds, frogs, lizards, insects spiders etc. Although im lucky enough to live in an area where deadly snakes are virtually nonexistant. Anyway going out to the ponds in my yard now to see if the local water dragon or any snakes are out to been seen.


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## ozianimals (Oct 9, 2007)

I think you guys missed the point from forensick. the point would be do you kill a dog because the potential of the dog is dangerous all those sharp teeth and strong jaws.......it could kill your child at any point no matter how well trained. Yet you will kill a snake that is not a threat, such as a diamond because it's a snake and is a potential killer.
Think about it, if life is genuinly threatened fine but otherwise there is no reason to kill anything that is protected or not unless it is for survival..........such as killing for food, the way we do with cows.........


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## natrix (Oct 10, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> My idea of dispatching a dangerous snake would be if it crawled into a tent at night and frightened the daylights out of one of my kids and because they couldn't get out past the animal, hence the choice would be a logical one for me. Is that close enough for you



Yep , I'd say that's a fair call


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## Charlie V (Oct 10, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry to say it, but, with toddlers running around, its just a risk that cant be taken. Weigh it up... the life of a snake, vs. the life of your child/sister/brother/nephew. Snakes are DANGEROUS! Just becasue some of us keep them as pets, it does not make them cute/cuddly, or less dangerous.



This is very true. Unlike Renee, I have killed snakes that were close to the house before.

Until very recently, I lived (and grew up) on a farm. For any of you who live on, or have been to farms, you may appreciate where I'm coming from.

Farms are messy places. There will invariably be sheets of corrugated iron, piles of old lumber, possibly a pile of firewood, at least a couple of sheds full of accumulated junk, and more than likely the houses will be raised off the ground, and the crawlspace underneath filled with junk as well. There are chook pens, stables, dairies, haysheds, etc. These areas provide comfortable homes for snakes. They can live their entire lives there, feeding on the ever present rodents.

Most farms will also have several dogs and cats, in addition to children.

Now, finding a snake in the immediate area is cause for concern. The kids may not find it, and can possibly be educated about them, but the cats and dogs are likely to bump into it and the snake isn't just going to go away. While you can't remove all the snakes, and will likely never see most of them, you can remove *that one* and thus decrease the chances of a pet or a child being bitten. I remember as a kid, having at least three dogs die from snakebite. It happens, and fairly frequently. It's definately a risk worth mitigating.



Jonno from ERD said:


> With the correct education and knowledge, they are no more dangerous than a horse, which no doubt you associate with fairly regularly considering that you live on property.



While statistically correct, that is a misleading statement. A horse is a very large, easily identified and handled creature. You can tell when they are angry or upset, and treat them appropriately. Now, the same can be said of a snake, certainly, but that is not where the danger of a snake lies. They are dangerous to humans because they hide. A child might never even see the snake that bites it, as it plays hide and seek in the shed. And certainly a snake is much more dangerous to a dog or a cat!



Forensick said:


> i would like to say yes....
> as i would with most animals....
> 
> what makes your child so great? or mine? or my sisters? that it is worth more than the extinction of a species WE got in the way of....





Renee said:


> I would gladly sacrifice all of my snakes to save the life of a child. And I'm sure that if you thought about it, you would too.



It's an interesting philosophical debate, with off-the-cuff (and I can only assume, partially analysed) comments from both sides of the debate.

1 - Worth. Worth is an intensely personal thing. From a truly objective perspective, all things are equally worthless. Even that implies a kind of utilitarian volume based worth, which is still inaccurate. If everything in the universe has a value of '1', then ten of something does not have a value of '10'. Everything as an individual is worth '1', and collections of individuals are still worth '1'.

2 - But we, as animals, are not objective. Those closer to us are exponentially more important than those we do not know, be they human, animal or even inanimate. I'm not going to sell my car so that I can afford to save a dog from 'death row' at the pound, therefore my car is worth more than a dog. However, I would sell my car to provide life saving surgery for the dog I already have. Therefore, my car is *less* important than a dog.

The comment _"I would gladly sacrifice all of my snakes to save the life of a child"_ is especially interesting. Cholera vaccines save lives, and are relatively inexpensive. Someone who sold their pet snakes could easily afford several, and save the lives of some nameless, faceless child in poverty stricken Africa. But we will continue to spend comparative fortunes, literally *life saving* fortunes on our hobbies, be they computer gaming, skiing, golfing or herping, because to us those hobbies are *more important* than peoples lives. Or at least, the lives of people we don't know, on the other side of the world.

So it's inaccurate (although admirably heartfelt) to say "Snakes are worth more than people" or "I'd kill a million snakes to save a childs life". All we are doing is demonstrating our application of worth, in a hypothetical situation. We can't prove that one thing is more valuable than another, or that someone elses estimation of worth is wrong, and very rarely can we honestly claim that the life of a child is the most important thing to us.



natrix said:


> as Ghandi said ---an eye-for-an-eye only makes the whole world blind.



And in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king...


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## Forensick (Oct 10, 2007)

charlie...

my comment reflects one human life vs a species life, regardless of WHICH human life

i am 1 of 6 billion
all of 1 species is 1 of 1

hence the worth of that species, however offensive, is more than me


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## Charlie V (Oct 10, 2007)

Forensick said:


> charlie...
> 
> my comment reflects one human life vs a species life, regardless of WHICH human life
> 
> ...



Speaking entirely objectively, both a single individual and an entire species have exactly the same value.

It is your choice to value an entire species over a human life, but that doesn't make it the *only* choice, nor the only *right* choice.

For example, if I were shipwrecked on an island that was the only home of a unique kind of bird, and that bird was the only readily available food source, you can bet I'd eat those birds into extinction before I let myself starve to death.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that value and worth are like beauty; they are in the eye of the beholder.


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## MoreliaMatt (Oct 10, 2007)

Charlie V: Your very good here, i like and agree with most of your points here, but also i agree with forensick... 

i'd like to know your opinions on my points....

We are on the snakes land.... back to the original post of the campground and the person killing snakes... i feel that if you dont want to deal with the snakes, why go and sleep in the snakes backyards, on the ground, in a tent?!

Secondly, i feel that there is VERY MINIMAL circumstances where killing a snake is the only or the safest option? They are not an animal that will stalk a human and ambush upon them.... completely the opposite, so long as you dont swing a shovel they dont have to protect themselves, and they will go away....

As for people living on properties, I didnt live there, but i spent ALOT of my childhood days growing up on my grandparents farm... so i know what thats like, with the scraps lying around, the chicken pens, the long grass etc etc.... I distinctly remember one day there was an eastern brown snake curled up behind the toilet (external outhouse, over by the chookpen). What did my grandfather do? he moved it on, back out into one of the paddocks.... Why? Because he had good morals and he knew that they are of no threat to human and infact good to have around the place... and most of all, he chose to live there! and if you choose to live in a place like this, you choose to live with all the creatures from the area!


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## Forensick (Oct 10, 2007)

charlie_v, but thats exactly why value cannot be measured by oneself.

it must be measured objectively, seeing yourself solely as a 1 in 6 billion, becasue to everyone but me, that is all i am.


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## slim6y (Oct 10, 2007)

It brings back memories of the 'cull or not to cull' thread.


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 10, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> This is very true. Unlike Renee, I have killed snakes that were close to the house before.
> 
> Until very recently, I lived (and grew up) on a farm. For any of you who live on, or have been to farms, you may appreciate where I'm coming from.
> 
> ...


 
I don't understand why finding a snake in the immediate area is a cause for concern? If you live on a farm, you will have dozens of snakes around at any one time. Is it a case of if you can't see them, they aren't there? 

The cat and dog argument is null and void. Cats shouldn't be outside in the first place (there has been plenty of discussion about this). Keeping your dogs in an area where snakes are unlikely to visit is pretty easy and pretty sensible. A fenced off area several metres square that will quickly become a patch of dirt is the best option. I have seen this done in several farming communities. 

Removing a single snake will have no effect on the likelihood of someone or something getting bitten. If you remove a snake from an area, all you do is create a void and another will move straight back into it's spot. 



Charlie V said:


> While statistically correct, that is a misleading statement. A horse is a very large, easily identified and handled creature. You can tell when they are angry or upset, and treat them appropriately. Now, the same can be said of a snake, certainly, but that is not where the danger of a snake lies. They are dangerous to humans because they hide. A child might never even see the snake that bites it, as it plays hide and seek in the shed. And certainly a snake is much more dangerous to a dog or a cat!


 
I disagree that you can tell if a horse is angry or upset all the time. The daughter of a family friend found out the hard way when her horse kicked her in the face and she died instantly. She had grown up around horses and had owned this one for several years. This occured in Allora, probably 8 years ago. 

If the children are wearing enclosed shoes and long pants (which they should be on a farm anyway), the risk of a bit is all but eliminated. The fangs of an Eastern Brown Snake are no more than 3mm long and made for piercing the skin of lizards, rodents and frogs - not that of a pair of leather work boots or denim jeans.

I won't comment on the "worth of human life" topic as I think it is irrelevant. What IS relevant is risk, or more so, perceived risk. People perceive snakes as posing a massive risk to their lives. Whilst I am the first to say that if you are bitten, it can be very serious. However, they are no where near as dangerous as people seem to think they are. You can be 2 metres from ANY species of venomous snake and be in virtually NO danger. If you stand still, the chances of being bitten are zero. I do this weekly during our demonstrations with a 1.7 metre Eastern Brown, whilst wearing shorts and letting it slide between my legs to emphasise that fact that standing still around venomous snakes works. I have yet to be bitten doing that (bagging up Mulga snakes is a different story though!). 

Basically what I am trying to say is that with a little bit of knowledge, a little bit of preparation and a little bit of logic, everyone will be perfectly safe.

Cheers


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## cris (Oct 10, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> I don't understand why finding a snake in the immediate area is a cause for concern? If you live on a farm, you will have dozens of snakes around at any one time. Is it a case of if you can't see them, they aren't there?
> 
> 
> Removing a single snake will have no effect on the likelihood of someone or something getting bitten. If you remove a snake from an area, all you do is create a void and another will move straight back into it's spot.



I think this is a bit off the mark, having a large mulga or brown snake living inside the house or simply in the yard/shed or whatever is actually a considerably high threat as far as snakes go. A deadly snake that is living and potentially breeding within a few meters of a rural house is not desirable IMO. I also think the fact these are almost always removed on sight would contribute greatly to our low rate of snake bite deaths in Australia. I would imagine if someone called you out to move a large deadly elapid from someones yard/house you would do it, no different to someone in the country getting a .410 to do it, unless you want to take the bleeding heart angle.

On a rural property killing deadly snakes that come into or near the house isnt going to do anything to the population and i think its crazy to suggest it wont minimise the risk not allowing deadly snakes to live in the house, yard or shed. As for the kids wearing sensible clothes, that wont stop them getting tagged on the hand or even the face. Also not all snakes have tiny fangs like browns.


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 10, 2007)

cris,

What I am trying to convey is that whether you can see one or not, there will always be venomous snakes around a property. A farm is prisitine habitat for most large elapids (which is humorous in itself - clean up the property and they will go away!). 

With regards to your reasoning that removing the large elapids is the reason for our low rate of snakebite death, what a load of rubbish. The reason for the lack of deaths in Australia is thanks to our fantastic first aid, highly effective anti-venom and distinct lack of bites in the first place. Killing snakes puts people in far more danger than leaving them be. Shooting them isn't normally an option as most farmers couldn't hit the back of a bus from 20 metres, let alone a snake that's an inch wide.

I don't see how a kid is going to get bitten on the face, and if it did happen it would be a freak, 1 in a million accident, so that example isn't really relevant. You're right in the fact that not all snakes have small fangs like an Eastern Brown, however they aren't much bigger and they don't have the jaw power to get their little fangs through a set of Blundstone's or pair of Levi's. 

What I find funny is that farmers are so paranoid about the chance of someone been bitten by a venomous snake, yet you nearly always see them ripping around their properties on dirtbikes and quads, never wearing a helmet and usually with a kid or two hanging of it somehow.


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## cris (Oct 10, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> cris,
> 
> What I am trying to convey is that whether you can see one or not, there will always be venomous snakes around a property. A farm is prisitine habitat for most large elapids (which is humorous in itself - clean up the property and they will go away!).



Of course there will always be snakes around the property(hence why killing a few isnt a big deal), i wasnt suggesting otherwise and there is always the chance of some coming in. That is very differant from simply allowing snakes to live and breed in the immediate area around your house. Sure the farmer could empty is shed destroy his garden etc. so there is nowhere for them to live but it is much easier for them just to remove the snakes that take up residence. I think you are spot on with everthing you have said except saying having snakes living in and around the house, shed etc isnt more risky than not having them living there. 

If removing a snake has "no effect on the likelihood of someone or something getting bitten" you should never ever have to remove deadly elapids from anyones yard. I know i for one would think there is a far greater danger of having heaps of deadly snakes living in my yard vs having none and only having to worry about the odd one drifting in.


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## Charlie V (Oct 11, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> I don't understand why finding a snake in the immediate area is a cause for concern? If you live on a farm, you will have dozens of snakes around at any one time. Is it a case of if you can't see them, they aren't there?



Obviously a farm, especially one that includes areas of scrub, is home to many many snakes. However, I doubt there are dozens cohabiting in the firewood pile or the hayshed.



> The cat and dog argument is null and void. Cats shouldn't be outside in the first place (there has been plenty of discussion about this). Keeping your dogs in an area where snakes are unlikely to visit is pretty easy and pretty sensible. A fenced off area several metres square that will quickly become a patch of dirt is the best option. I have seen this done in several farming communities.



Again, we have a question of worth and value.

Dogs on farms are not 'kept' in pens. They run free across the property. Pens are used for when they must be locked up or kept separated. While I agree that cats shouldn't be living inside, I'll freely admit I prefer to have them eating the native wildlife outside, than shedding hair on the furniture inside. It's not a real issue as far as I'm concerned, as I'm not really a cat person!



> If the children are wearing enclosed shoes and long pants (which they should be on a farm anyway), the risk of a bit is all but eliminated. The fangs of an Eastern Brown Snake are no more than 3mm long and made for piercing the skin of lizards, rodents and frogs - not that of a pair of leather work boots or denim jeans.



The problem is 'surprise' attacks, most likely on the hands as the kids go rummaging and climbing around the property.



> I won't comment on the "worth of human life" topic as I think it is irrelevant. What IS relevant is risk, or more so, perceived risk. People perceive snakes as posing a massive risk to their lives. Whilst I am the first to say that if you are bitten, it can be very serious. However, they are no where near as dangerous as people seem to think they are. You can be 2 metres from ANY species of venomous snake and be in virtually NO danger. If you stand still, the chances of being bitten are zero.



Again, the problem is surprise attacks, and cats and dogs who cannot be told not to investigate and attack the 'intruder'.

A snake sunning itself on the lawn poses an immediate deadly threat to my pets, whose lives I value much more than that of the snake.


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## bump73 (Oct 11, 2007)

Renee said:


> I'm sorry guys... but this has to be said...
> 
> Would any of you hesitate to kill a death adder or brown snake that bit and killed your child???
> I live out on a property, and any brown snake that ventures near the house, better hope that it dosent get hit over the head by a shovel.
> ...


 

If you are that worried about your childs safety MOVE!!!

If you chose to live in the snakes environment don't blame the snake

Don't go killing any threat in sight, I mean what are you basing your fear on, have your kids been bitten or struck at??

Yes i'll admit there is a chance of something happening but it's that slim that it should'nt be a concern to you. I know parents can be over protective these days but you have to draw the line somewhere

I grew up on the bush and came across browns and red bellies, and every time, they did the runner as soon as they saw me, my parents educated me on what to do and knowing that there was a risk i was supervised til i was at an age where they could trust me not to do anything stupid...

And, Forensik, as extreme as it is, if more people had your attitude the world would be a much better place


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 11, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> While I agree that cats shouldn't be living inside, I'll freely admit I prefer to have them eating the native wildlife outside, than shedding hair on the furniture inside. It's not a real issue as far as I'm concerned, as I'm not really a cat person!


 

I may come across as being rude, but this comment sums you up perfectly. A selfish person with no real love for Australian wildlife, who would rather see the extinction of a species than putting up with some cat hair on the sofa.


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## Forensick (Oct 11, 2007)

jonno....

i'd go further, people with cat who keep them inside have no real love for their own pet....
an out door cat has its lifespan slashed by almost 20 years


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## bump73 (Oct 11, 2007)

Charlie V, If you think it's ok for cats to kill native wildlife i can only assume you are one of those farmers with no respect for the country... The type who clears all his land and then cries about salinity, or plants high water dependancy crops and cries about the drought and expects the rest of the country to bail you out:x Nothing like a farmer with a sunburnt neck

Cats are as bad a mistake as cane toads, carp, rabbits and foxes. They should be treated the same as carp, if you catch it it's against the law to let it live..

And before the cat lovers jump up and down, keep it inside and you won't have a problem
ben


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## falcon69 (Oct 11, 2007)

education is the best knowledge to have and then to teach yr children..its sad but there are still alot of peoplr that are out there who dont really care what you try and teach them..why.. because they were broght up that way,on so and so on..it doesnt stop until the individual changes..i see alot of shovel jobs on the coast,the worst one ive seen was a beautiful diamond who wasnt onlt smacked with the shovel but cut in half,by the time we got it it was bleeding to death..i had spoken to the woman on the phone and and so had the resurer,and the snake wasnt hurting anything or anyone,..why did she hit because she THOUGHT it might,hurt her dog or daughter who was a teenager who was inside,she wasnt sorry she was happy,.how to we teach our children any knowledge with having it ourselves and passing it on,yes i have children and we have always taugt them to look not to touch and what is venomous what isnt,.im not saying that my 5year old is a expert but he does understand and know..but sometimes it is abit hard to teach yr children not to touch venomus snakes when they see pics of people holding them around their neck,,that doesnt teach children or any people who ar4e missinformed about reptiles the right thing..and the most people to get bitten are the children aged between 10-25 something like that..and unfortantly it the boys who get bitten:lol:....to live in better enviroment we have to have to teach and educate the future as if the wildlife's habitat isnt being destroyed enough by pulling it down we dont need to kill them as well when they venture into their old enviroment as thats where they used to live


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## firedragon (Oct 11, 2007)

We used to live in lowood (country town near ipswich) and we got browns inside from time to time my stepdad killed them only the ones inside the ones outside were left to go on their way. At the time i though he was doing a good thing cause i didn't know much myself. Learning more about them we could have called someone to come get it out. He also found a snake that they sent to a university that was a combination of approx 9 different species venomous and non-venomous that had never been seen before. Pitty he's dead now cause i'd like to find out where he sent it and get some more info from them. If we teach children what to do when they see a snake and to leave wild snakes alone, they should be safe enough, and no need for it to be killed, the snake will usually slither off if left alone. In my experience anyway


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 11, 2007)

firedragon said:


> He also found a snake that they sent to a university that was a combination of approx 9 different species venomous and non-venomous that had never been seen before.


 

Wow!


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## mysnakesau (Oct 11, 2007)

You'd be surprised just how many ppl mis-identify snakes and consider all snakes as dangerous. There really needs to be much more education. i know there is already a lot out there, and it is very good but unless one is looking for it, who knows where to find the education. Pet shops and Herp Clubs could do very well at promoting reptile awareness, but should be done regularly. A lot of animal clubs hold competitive shows every 2 months, or once a year, some even every week. While most of our herp clubs aren't into the competition shows, perhaps they could spare the time for holding more publicity exhibitions.

I do work volunteer work at our local wildlife park. My main duty is with the reptiles and yesterday i overheard a visitor point out our olive python as a king brown and reported to his family how deadly they are. Oli is a very old girl and does look more brown than olive, but innocent animals are being killed because they are being mistaken for more deadly species. Very sad to see.


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## Charlie V (Oct 11, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> I may come across as being rude, but this comment sums you up perfectly. A selfish person with no real love for Australian wildlife, who would rather see the extinction of a species than putting up with some cat hair on the sofa.



I don't wish to sound judgmental, but your comment above paints you as a person with a learning disability, or at the very least a reading comprehension problem, with a penchant for over-reaction and ridiculous exaggeration, gently blended with self righteous indignation and hypocrisy.

Isn't it easy to take shots at someone when you don't have to see them face to face?



If I'm happy making repayments on my plasma screen television, when the money could be used to buy life saving vaccines for children in Africa, then what does that say about my value structure?

Clearly, personal comfort and satisfaction comes well before the lives of other humans. I'm happy to let those people starve and die of disease so that I can buy a new pair of shoes. In fact, the plight of those people is so insignificant that it barely even registers on my mind. It's not even a case of 'Do I buy a new DVD or donate to Doctors without Borders?' it's a case of 'Do I buy Dirty Harry, or Shaun of the Dead?'.

Given that I can so easily dismiss the lives of others for reasons so fleeting and empty, what on earth makes you think I would inconvenience myself for some native wildlife?

Now, before you hit the 'quote' button and start an anger-fueled diatribe, remember that you and I are essentially the same. If you've ever bought a DVD, or a Pizza, or heaven forbid a packet of cigarettes. If You've ever bought *any* luxury item at all, then you have chosen your own comforts over the lives of other people. 

Simply living in a developed nation requires some very 'creative' moral accounting, and spouting off at someone, calling them 'selfish' over the internet is laughable. Yes, if I owned cats I would let them stay outside. How is that worse than you choosing to buy a reptile instead of saving someone elses life?

It's not wrong, it's not cruel and it's not selfish. It's just human.

Yes, cats aren't good for the native wildlife. But lets be honest, the danger posed by cats is so tiny as to be insignificant, when compared to the big killer; destruction of native habitat. Suburban sprawl and commercial land use is, if we are so inclined, where we should be directing our 'save the wildlife' efforts. People with cats are way, way down the list.

To clarify I do not own a cat, and do not ever wish to own a cat.



bump73 said:


> Cats are as bad a mistake as cane toads, carp, rabbits and foxes. They should be treated the same as carp, if you catch it it's against the law to let it live.



I agree, and have certainly dispatched my fair share of feral cats, not to mention rabbits, foxes, pigs and deer. Although the deer seem to have integrated fairly well into Australia, to the point where they are actually protected animals!


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## Charlie V (Oct 11, 2007)

bump73 said:


> Come on Charlie V. You said you would prefer they killed Native animals than shed hair on your couch..
> 
> That is the point that has p i s s e d me off and i'm sure countless others that read your post..



Like I said, if I'm happy to let people die from easily curable diseases because I'd rather spend money on beer and pizza, then of course I'd rather have some native wildlife die than have cat hair all through my house.

To be honest, people who get concerned about cats eating native birds but are happy to spend hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on herps rather than donating it to charity and saving other peoples lives are the ones who piss *me* off. At least be honest about your decisions, take ownership of your 'selfishness' and perhaps do a little prioritising.

The average global 'footprint' of a person living in a developed nation is undoubtedly responsible for far more native wildlife deaths than people letting their cats roam around outside. If saving wildlife is your goal, then campaigning for people to reduce their global footprint is undoubtedly a more effective road to take.


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## cris (Oct 11, 2007)

Charlie V, i suggest you do some research or thinking before making such stupid comments, cats would have wiped out counless Australian species, they are an unnatural type of predator in Australia and although habit destruction is far more detrimental on a local level, cats live in the areas that arnt even touched by humans. 

I do agree with the first part of your rant though, i would much rather have a beer than pay to feed someone i dont know. I dont get why you would buy a DVD though, that is a complete waste of money.


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## cris (Oct 11, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> To be honest, people who get concerned about cats eating native birds but are happy to spend hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on herps rather than donating it to charity and saving other peoples lives are the ones who piss *me* off. At least be honest about your decisions, take ownership of your 'selfishness' and perhaps do a little prioritising.



pfft what crap, you are now contradicting yourself. To start with you say you would rather a plasma TV than save a person now you say you are annoyed at us for spending thousands of dollars on keeping native wildlife :?


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## ozianimals (Oct 11, 2007)

In my opinion the only thing you should shoot a snake with is a camera!!!!!!!!!!!

Can we have a civil discussion rather than having a go at people for their opinions that differ from ours.....Like killing wildlife the way to stop it is to not do it yourself when given the chance.........
We are supposed to be here for our herps.


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## Veredus (Oct 11, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> Like I said, if I'm happy to let people die from easily curable diseases because I'd rather spend money on beer and pizza, then of course I'd rather have some native wildlife die than have cat hair all through my house.
> 
> To be honest, people who get concerned about cats eating native birds but are happy to spend hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on herps rather than donating it to charity and saving other peoples lives are the ones who piss *me* off. At least be honest about your decisions, take ownership of your 'selfishness' and perhaps do a little prioritising.
> 
> The average global 'footprint' of a person living in a developed nation is undoubtedly responsible for far more native wildlife deaths than people letting their cats roam around outside. If saving wildlife is your goal, then campaigning for people to reduce their global footprint is undoubtedly a more effective road to take.


 
It is foolish to compare an act of negligence (like allowing the starvation of people in third world countries) to the direct cause of death that owning a cat and allowing it to roam causes. By purchasing an LCD tv you have allowed death to occur but by owning a cat and allowing it to roam about outside you are causing death to occur and because native wildlife is closer and more beautiful to me I hold its value as higher than that of human lives in other countries (or many in our own for that matter).


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## bump73 (Oct 11, 2007)

this will be my last bit on this thread as it's going off topic and i don't really want to start another cat thread

Not letting a cat out at night, at the very least, is not a very hard thing to do. Australias wildlife has never had to contend with a predator like the cat and, the killing machines that they are, they have free reign over all the native animals out there. If people own cats they need to take some responsibility for the animal.

If you let it out to kill you are just as guilty as it is of the death. And stopping this is something all cat owners can do to save the environment locally. Yes, the big picture is important, but cats do a lot of damage everywhere especially in suburban reserves.

Back on topic  i stay at treachery when i'm up that way, the monitors are great you just have to watch them around the BBQ. Lots of frogs, even up on the sand dunes:shock: But ..i've never seen a snake...Maybe this is why.....

ben

And chris, it's nice to agree on something


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## Charlie V (Oct 11, 2007)

cris said:


> Charlie V, i suggest you do some research or thinking before making such stupid comments, cats would have wiped out counless Australian species, they are an unnatural type of predator in Australia and although habit destruction is far more detrimental on a local level, cats live in the areas that arnt even touched by humans.



Stressing about people letting their cats out is like worrying about a stain on your carpet while your house is burning down.

There are far more significant issues at hand...

Either way, my point is not that cats don't have an impact. My point is that when I already don't care about the impact of my lifestyle both locally and globally to significantly change it, it's easy not to care about the impact of my (entirely hypothetical) cat on the native wildlife.



cris said:


> pfft what crap, you are now contradicting yourself. To start with you say you would rather a plasma TV than save a person now you say you are annoyed at us for spending thousands of dollars on keeping native wildlife :?



No, I'm annoyed at people who criticise others for being selfish without evaluating and examining the impact of their own lifestyle.



Veredus said:


> It is foolish to compare an act of negligence (like allowing the starvation of people in third world countries) to the direct cause of death that owning a cat and allowing it to roam causes



It seems perfectly analogous to me. It is the cat, not you, that actually takes an animals life in the same way that it is starvation or disease that kills someone in Africa.


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## moosenoose (Oct 11, 2007)

Won't be too long before they first nuke the housing development sites before they build on them...that way we can make sure everything is dead and won't interfere with our livelihoods! :lol:

I'm enjoying this thread


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## aspidito (Oct 11, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> Like I said, if I'm happy to let people die from easily curable diseases because I'd rather spend money on beer and pizza, then of course I'd rather have some native wildlife die than have cat hair all through my house.
> 
> Mate you have one wierd outlook on life, it seems the difference between you & most people is that you are actually HAPPY to let people die so needlessly, I am happy that I can support a couple of world vision children & also support a few pythons of my own. I am so glad that there are not too many people in this world like you!:?


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## Lovemysnakes (Oct 16, 2007)

*What A Man - Wow!!!!!!!*

Lets hope someone dobbs you in mate, next time you kill one. I bet it makes you feel like a real man doesnt it? I bet you run around telling all your mates what a man you are? I live with venomous snakes as does my five year old. If I ever thought his life was in danger I would move!!!!! HELLO!!!!!!

Any body else agree with me? Voice your opinion.

Ta,

GC


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## kensai (Nov 19, 2007)

The snakes dont want to bite humans, in fact is usualy the last resort, live & Let live, if it is to close to your house relocate it. If you dont Know How do a handling course.
I have a great respect for elapids, I even keep one, If you treat them with respect and not fear you both can coexist


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## kensai (Nov 19, 2007)

*Education*



mysnakesau said:


> You'd be surprised just how many ppl mis-identify snakes and consider all snakes as dangerous. There really needs to be much more education. i know there is already a lot out there, and it is very good but unless one is looking for it, who knows where to find the education. Pet shops and Herp Clubs could do very well at promoting reptile awareness, but should be done regularly. A lot of animal clubs hold competitive shows every 2 months, or once a year, some even every week. While most of our herp clubs aren't into the competition shows, perhaps they could spare the time for holding more publicity exhibitions.
> 
> I do work volunteer work at our local wildlife park. My main duty is with the reptiles and yesterday i overheard a visitor point out our olive python as a king brown and reported to his family how deadly they are. Oli is a very old girl and does look more brown than olive, but innocent animals are being killed because they are being mistaken for more deadly species. Very sad to see.



At least one ( and possibly many more) herp group does do a lot of displays at community events for just this reason, the problem is getting people to volenteer their time


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