# has anyone else been bitten by a tiger snake



## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

hi everyone i was free handling a few elapids in a controlled enviroment by that i mean with a few well respected handlers when i was bitten 3 times by a tiger snake.The symptoms have been insane with slight paralysys around bite site pain loss of taste headaches trouble focusing nausia weakness etc. After the bite i recieved 8 viles of antivenom and 3 days in intensive care. JUst wondering if anyone else has been through this them selves and how long these symptoms usually last.
cheers.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Mar 11, 2009)

tiger snake bite will be nothing compared to the tidal wave of hatecoming regarding freehandling lol


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## itbites (Mar 11, 2009)

ummm can't say I have


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

because it was a course


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## Varanus1 (Mar 11, 2009)

pics or it didn't happen


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## Vixen (Mar 11, 2009)

gex01 said:


> because it was a course


 
Let me guess... :lol: Nah I wont say it.


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

by the way i shouldnt have said free handling because what i meant by that was learning how to bag them for rescues.


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 11, 2009)

Wow bad luck mate. I was bitten by a red belly (it was a rescue) last Thursday and spent 24 hours in hospital (just for observation) and all I got was a sore finger for a few days. Oh, and my temperature got up to 37.8 for a few hours whilst I was asleep. No anti venom needed.

Did you agree to take part in the Menzies Institute Research Project?


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## $NaKe PiMp (Mar 11, 2009)

having handlers around that have "respect" means you should of been protected by there force field they project and it failed 3 times too LOL


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## mysnakesau (Mar 11, 2009)

Out of Australia's Top Ten Dangerous Animals the tiger snake is listed Number 8. However isn't that strange when 3 species of Tigers hold numbers 5, 7 & 8 in the top 10 most venomous snakes. The Inland Taipan is Number one yet it is not in the Top Ten of Australia's Dangerous Animals.

Here is a couple of links 
Top 10 Dangerous animals http://www.australianfauna.com/t10dangerous.php
Top 10 Most Venomous Snakes http://arachnophiliac.info/burrow/tenmostvenomous.htm

I don't understand fully, the difference between dangerous, deadly and most venomous. Perhaps, Inland has most potent venom but a tiger is more likely to strike and bite than a taipan? Dunno, will go do some more reading.


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

yeah there are pics by the way vixen if it wasnt at a course i wouldnt be replying to you right now if you get my drift.


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## hodges (Mar 11, 2009)

In all respect to the the keepers involved james i would like to see this thread deleted or locked, i understand it should not of happened in a controlled environment but at the end of the day even captive elapids can bite.


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## itbites (Mar 11, 2009)

if it was at a course then thats not on!

The Vic course that deals with ven relocation

assesses your capability before allowing you

to participate in the handling side of things


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## $NaKe PiMp (Mar 11, 2009)

so what corse was it dude


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## cougars (Mar 11, 2009)

At least your ok  Could have been worse.


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## ogg666 (Mar 11, 2009)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> having handlers around that have "respect" means you should of been protected by there force field they project and it failed 3 times too LOL


 lol:lol::lol:.....too bad about gettin tagged dude


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

snake pimp as you would possibly know if your into snakes they can be extremely unpredictable from second to second and just because i was bitten 3 times doesnt mean it struck because it didnt once strike it bit three times as they do when they hang on as they are well known for doing. LOL


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

Its alright hodges im not having a go at the keepers i take responsibility for my own actions its not their fault. This thread has just blown out by people i was seeing if anyone else has been bitten to disscuss the symptoms thats all.


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## mark83 (Mar 11, 2009)

bad luck mate. doesnt sound like much fun


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## $NaKe PiMp (Mar 11, 2009)

oh dont wory mate i not giving u a lecture i was just expecting the haters to come from everywhere and try to crucify you lol

i also have been whacked before from elapid

yea and what co**** was it?


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## itbites (Mar 11, 2009)

Publicly advertising that you were bitten 
whilst attending a course
Is definitely going to attract a lot of attention.

It also makes things harder on the people
keeping vens & the people running these
courses IMO.


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## Jonno from ERD (Mar 11, 2009)

itbites said:


> It also makes things harder on the people
> keeping vens & the people running these
> courses imo.


 

Yes and no. It just highlights the reason why we teach "no contact" methods to first time handlers...


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## amazonian (Mar 11, 2009)

The problem is they allow anyone to do Elapid training/displaying these days.
If proper protocol was in order (equipment, safety & training) there wouldn't be any bites involved.

IMO I would sue the trainers for failing their duty of execution.


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## itbites (Mar 11, 2009)

That is true Jonno 
the safest option for beginners/learners 

To be honest I've never heard 
of this sort of thing happening in a course before
:shock:

It's certainly a good reason to emphasize the
"no contact" approach.. to prevent things like this
from ever occurring.


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## salebrosus (Mar 11, 2009)

I notice the question still hasn't been answered. Anyone?


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## Kirby (Mar 11, 2009)

itbites said:


> I almost wish you get bitten Kirby so you can stop typing out trash
> & hitting the submit button you really need to grow up



your kidding right?

kick a man while he's down, while he's trying to learn to rescue wild snakes.


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## mysnakesau (Mar 11, 2009)

_Notechis scutatus_ yep thats the one. The others are Riesvie Tiger Snake at number 5, and Western Tiger snake at number 7.


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## snakehandler (Mar 11, 2009)

gex01, I think what you were trying to say is that you were bitten whilst bagging a snake, not free handling....they are very different things. 

Bites can happen in any course, it is a matter of circumstances, I do not know the course you attended, nor the people taking the course, however I do know that unless you have greater than 10% permanent loss or damage suing someone will get you no where.

Although I have not been bitten, the former owner of this business has, he had a very bad bite very early in his career, a distraction when feeding (child ran into the reptile room as the snake was about to strike at food), he described it as excruciating pain and took several months to recover.

I am glad to hear you are ok now.


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## JasonL (Mar 11, 2009)

Gex, any chance you could detail how you were bitten? ie; were you tailing ect at the time? I really don't think naming the people doing the course on an open forum will help anything, it can happen at anytime when dealing with vens.


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## redbellybite (Mar 11, 2009)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Yes and no. It just highlights the reason why we teach "no contact" methods to first time handlers...


 this course he was doing was to get his permit to do callouts?...and catch wild snakes of all types? ..so how do you learn to catch a snake with out actually doing it hands on ...I mean you cant learn to drive a car by just reading the book alone ...:|


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## mysnakesau (Mar 11, 2009)

gex01 said:


> because it was a course



What course was that? I have been waiting for SMWS to announce re-schedule of their capture and release course. I hope they didn't start without me


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

The thing is ive been into reptiles now for twenty years what is the point of sueing ,everybody wants to sue these days hows about we kill the snake to because it bit me. I THINK NOT accidents happen and that is exactly what it was and i beleive being there and the way it happened that it was nobodys fault not the handlers not mine i did the course at my own risk and unfortunatly this occured. AS for naming which course i will not as im am not going to ruin someone good reputation for an accident come on everyone we have to realize accidents cant always be avoided nobodys perfect.


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 11, 2009)

salebrosus said:


> I notice the question still hasn't been answered. Anyone?



I did answer it Simone but my post wasn't infamatory so no one noticed it


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## salebrosus (Mar 11, 2009)

I did a WIRES snake handling and relocation course. When John Cann asked what they taught me he was horified and made me promise never to handle Eastern Browns ( yes JasonL i know i have told this story heaps of times). He was less than impressed with the bend over and tail them method and said what they taught me in one afternoon could not possibly prepare me for a warm and cranky brown snake. If you don't have to handle the animal then why would you? The first rescue i had to do was for a RBBS that was badly caught up in birds netting. I had to grab it by the head then cut the netting while it was thrashing about. They don't teach you things like that lol


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## snakehandler (Mar 11, 2009)

The good courses do! hands on is needed sometimes, there are nationally recognised courses now!


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## funcouple (Mar 11, 2009)

gex01 said:


> The thing is ive been into reptiles now for twenty years what is the point of sueing ,everybody wants to sue these days hows about we kill the snake to because it bit me. I THINK NOT accidents happen and that is exactly what it was and i beleive being there and the way it happened that it was nobodys fault not the handlers not mine i did the course at my own risk and unfortunatly this occured. AS for naming which course i will not as im am not going to ruin someone good reputation for an accident come on everyone we have to realize accidents cant always be avoided nobodys perfect.


 glad to see that your ok. its good to hear that you hold no blame for this accident and dont wish to ruin anyones reputation. i just hope your accident points out the risks of handling vens to people.


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## redbellybite (Mar 11, 2009)

Well I am glad my trainer was from the old school ...I started out at the shallow end and by the end I was in the deep ...I dont understand how you dont get taught hands on ...most of my callouts are hands on ...but then again I still have not mastered the trick of calling the snakes name and holding my bag open so he can do a backflip in...(yeah I was being sarcastic)


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## mysnakesau (Mar 11, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> The good courses do! hands on is needed sometimes, there are nationally recognised courses now!
> 
> 
> How much do you pay somebody to feed & clean your snakes for a week? Perhaps I can do a Ven. Handling Course and pay you with my labour. I will look after your animals very well. You might even offer me a job and keep me on.  Ok another piece of saracasm that isn't funny.
> ...


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

hi Jason yes mate i was tailing it to put it in the bag and what happened was as i was putting her into the bag she came backup and around my arm.when she did this i slowly went down to put her on the ground so i could tail her again but as she started to slither down my arm to go back on the ground and must have picked up a scent on my long sleeved shirt and turned her snout into my arm and had a munch.


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## snakehandler (Mar 11, 2009)

We have a few staff already who clean...sorry.....and the ones that work with the vens were taken on after they completed the courses. Other staff that we have are taken on and put through the course when they feel they are ready for it after working with the other animals for a while.....unfortunately you live in the wrong state! We are always wanting to talk to people who would like to work with us!


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## mysnakesau (Mar 11, 2009)

Sounds like I could have chance, but I don't want to move states if it means I have to leave any of my snakes behind. I did your Advanced Reptile Husbandry course to start with the pythons and lizards - I am not as scared of them as I use to be. I did voluntary work with Billabong Koala Park in their reptile section for 8 months and cleaned & fed all their lizards - blueys, water dragons, frill necks, cunninghams, land mullets, one lacey, perentie, shinglebacks, and their pythons. Wasn't allowed to touch the vens - vollies not insured.


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## m.punja (Mar 11, 2009)

Gex. Glade to hear you are ok. For a guy not wanting to badmouth the instructor and happy to blame himself you had gone about this thread in a weird way, escpecially if all you wanted to know was if other peoples bites related to your own. It almost seems like you are bragging. I hope until then the day went great and you took in lots of information and can no go out and get lots of experience. Lets not turn this into a thread debating teaching methods, can't we all just agree no two people are alike and everyone has their own way. I like that people do things differently to one another, it gives you an oppertunity to learn many different styles and then use what works best for your own personal self. 
I haven't been biten by an elapid but from what I have heard from others no two bites are the exact same, it sounds painful and can sometimes to long lasting damage. I know of one person who lost his sense of taste for a year.


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## kupper (Mar 11, 2009)

Been bitten twice by tigers and once by a collettes tiger was more painful the second time the first time was a estimated 4 week old juvie got m when I was moving a few bags at a mates farm in kilmore the second was when I was working at pipeworks market , the colleges was my fault got stuck in a stupid position with the snake and the rest is history , tiger 1 hospital two days and very sick for 3 weeks tiger 2 didn't feel to good for a week sore around bite area for a month , collettes a 4 day stony in hospital and still have numbness in my right foot


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

Thanks kuppa finally someone who can help and answer my questions.Also thanks *MPUNJA* for the last few words in your post but the part about basically calling me a bragger and so on your out of line beleive me what ive been through the last week and the on going treatment which is somthing that im having i dont find pleasurable believe me untill you have experienced it yourself you will never understand how sick you become and to put your family through not knowing if you will come good is just as bad.This thread was meant to try and get a bit of help out of people who have been through it aswell as the after effects are quite worrying NOT TO TRY AND START A DEBATE.:x:x:x


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## baxtor (Mar 11, 2009)

gex01 said:


> hi everyone i was free handling a few elapids in a controlled enviroment by that i mean with a few well respected handlers when i was bitten 3 times by a tiger snake.The symptoms have been insane with slight paralysys around bite site pain loss of taste headaches trouble focusing nausia weakness etc. After the bite i recieved 8 viles of antivenom and 3 days in intensive care. JUst wondering if anyone else has been through this them selves and how long these symptoms usually last.
> cheers.


 

I can speak of two bites with the first by a sub-adult there was severe and immediate local pain at the bite site (index finger) quickly extending up the arm, slight nausea about 2 hours later with tingling lips and impaired vision and slurred speach. Treatment was delayed until about four hours after the bite when 2 vials of antivenom was administered. Blood clotting factors took a beating and severe cramping and muscle soreness for about 1 day, 24 hours in hospital. loss of taste for about 4 weeks. (very effective way to lose weight)
Second was an adult about 4 1/2 feet long, no pain at all at bite site or limb. Treatment within 30 minutes 4 vials. Blood took a beating again but no other symptoms present. Hospital for a day and a half but that was only due to bossy nurses. No loss of taste or any other ongoing affects.


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## m.punja (Mar 11, 2009)

No worries Gex, reading your first few posts left me wondering which direction you were going with the thread but you are on the road to recovery from a tigersnake bite. I hope its something I never have to experience, having my passion for elapids and wanting to know everything about them continues to make me wonder about the effects from bites but I am in no hurry to stick myself with a fang to find out. It is interesting to read and hear about the different reactions people go through. Having all of my family worry over me is something I never want to put them through and something that keeps reminding me to be cautious when handlings my elapids, although some people may think my method is incorrect I don't and that is just my opinion. 
Its funny, I'll go around a mates and watch him handle his vens and keep saying, yeah I wouldn't do that, then when he is around my place the tables are turned and he is the one saying that. Just a case of personal preference.
All the best


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

Thankyou for your reply mpunja i appreciate it and i also hope you never experience this either as people that have been through it also i can guarrantee would agree. Baxter THANKYOU so much as your first incident pretty much describes it perfectly except i found the neausea and vomiting came alot quicker but that was from a mature adult.Because of this im hoping that size is erelevant as the taste issue drives you crazy watching everyone else eat things that you know tastes so good but you cant taste a thing.OH did your taste fully recover.


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## baxtor (Mar 11, 2009)

gex01 said:


> Thankyou for your reply mpunja i appreciate it and i also hope you never experience this either as people that have been through it also i can guarrantee would agree. Baxter THANKYOU so much as your first incident pretty much describes it perfectly except i found the neausea and vomiting came alot quicker but that was from a mature adult.Because of this im hoping that size is erelevant as the taste issue drives you crazy watching everyone else eat things that you know tastes so good but you cant taste a thing.OH did your taste fully recover.


 
Yes it fully recovered. To say I lost my sense of taste is not correct, it's just that everything (other than hot potato chips) tasted like ******.
Hope all goes well for you.


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## gex01 (Mar 11, 2009)

LOL Thanks Baxtor i know exactly what you mean.


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## cement (Mar 11, 2009)

I've never been bitten but I would have to assume there would be instant pain because of the make up of the venom. Bees, hoppy joes etc all sting straight away, is it possible to be tagged and not know it?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 11, 2009)

Feels like a pin prick, no sting that im aware of.
Effects come on rapidly at the bite site from what Ive seen but the venom is meant for
killing their prey where as bees and ants signify their presence with an insant painful sting.
It is possible to get tagged and not know it, especially when walking through scrub but also in the maintenance of captives.


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## Duke (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm curious, what would be the general consensus if you switched on the TV for the 5 O'clock news and you were flashed with the news headlines
"Sydney man dies from deadly Tiger snake while attending snake handling course"

I think one needs to treat any bite as a fatal one. If a student has been bitten then something has failed in the safety protocol.
It's be like a probationary police officer accidentally shooting another officer during a controlled live fire practice.
Or an apprentice electrician being hit with live three-phase current.
In both circumstances work-cover will be all over the employers like flies to a pile of doo-doo. Isn't there any responsibility for safety with those running the snake handling course?

I've never been to a venomous course, but do they *really* have to practice with a Tiger snake? Why not a really hungry Woma python or something less death-inducing?


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## DonnB (Mar 11, 2009)

Duke said:


> I've never been to a venomous course, but do they *really* have to practice with a Tiger snake? Why not a really hungry Woma python or something less death-inducing?



Seriously what is a woma going to teach you about elapids?
Would be even more careless teaching people to catch and relocate using a python then license them to go out and get browns, tiapans, tigers...


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## Duke (Mar 12, 2009)

Please don't get angry at me, I'm just offering my opinion. I have no knowledge of elapid nature and husbandry, and I admit that freely.

"Now you see guys and girls, if that had been an elapid, Duke would now be fighting for his life"
Something along those lines are my reasoning.

Wouldn't a wild, hungry python behave the same way as an elapid?


Anoter analogy would be training paramedics with real dirty needles that have been contaminated with HIV / Hep / drugs etc.
OH&S would never allow it due to harm minimisation / risk assessment.


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## BJC-787 (Mar 12, 2009)

how can you do a venomous snake course without venomous snakes??????

after doing a course it is much easier and safer in my opinion to tail and bag a snake that to hook and bag a snake.


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## Inlandtaipan078 (Mar 12, 2009)

*maybe i'll go for my driver's liscence in the big red car*

the snake handeler course is great hands on elapids and pythons first aid theory and handling skills see the difference weather you think you can handle them or not is not up to any of us but you can be prepaired and learn off what others have been through if you know it all and arn't going to get taged you might as well book your hospital bed


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## m.punja (Mar 12, 2009)

Duke said:


> If a student has been bitten then something has failed in the safety protocol.



Duke, I can't see people taking it seriously when using pythons as demonstration tools. In victoria for a while the only course you could do and actually handle elapids was Hosers and his venomoids. I think it's great that now people can actually handle hot elapids. I was so dissapointed that all I got to handle was voids or childrens pythons. 
There is no way to handle elapids and guarantee safety. Around more experienced keepers that can read snakes better makes it more safe but doesn't guarantee anything because accidents happen.
Tiger snakes, in my experience, are usually a very forgiving snake for newbis, I have heard of many people being headbutted by tiger snakes or they will just bluff hooding their necks and hissing. Also Tiger Snake Antivenom is very easy to get around most parts of Australia so Death from a Tiger Snake bite, you'd have to be pretty unlucky. Especially if you are in a room filled with other herpers and experienced people in Elapids and first Aid. 
I don't think people would take courses as seriously or be more inclind to teach themselves with wild Elapids if all you could handle was pythons or colourbrids. Plus it'd be a stupid idea that people can get their license to catch and relocate after only practicing on pythons, that in no way would prepare you and you'd have no confidence at all. 
At the end of the day, of all the courses out there being done and all the students handling elapids in these environments this is the first student bite I have heard of so I still concider courses to be pretty safe, and I am sure everyone knows before the pay that they will be asked to handle Elapids and then at the course if they are confident enough they'll be able to handle them. I highly doubt at no time anyone was forced to do these courses or forced to handle elapids if they were comfortable. So if you cope a bite it's more your fault then anyone elses because you put yourself in that situation knowing the risks involved.


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## redbellybite (Mar 12, 2009)

m.punja said:


> Duke, I can't see people taking it seriously when using pythons as demonstration tools. In victoria for a while the only course you could do and actually handle elapids was Hosers and his venomoids. I think it's great that now people can actually handle hot elapids. I was so dissapointed that all I got to handle was voids or childrens pythons.
> There is no way to handle elapids and guarantee safety. Around more experienced keepers that can read snakes better makes it more safe but doesn't guarantee anything because accidents happen.
> Tiger snakes, in my experience, are usually a very forgiving snake for newbis, I have heard of many people being headbutted by tiger snakes or they will just bluff hooding their necks and hissing. Also Tiger Snake Antivenom is very easy to get around most parts of Australia so Death from a Tiger Snake bite, you'd have to be pretty unlucky. Especially if you are in a room filled with other herpers and experienced people in Elapids and first Aid.
> I don't think people would take courses as seriously or be more inclind to teach themselves with wild Elapids if all you could handle was pythons or colourbrids. Plus it'd be a stupid idea that people can get their license to catch and relocate after only practicing on pythons, that in no way would prepare you and you'd have no confidence at all.
> At the end of the day, of all the courses out there being done and all the students handling elapids in these environments this is the first student bite I have heard of so I still concider courses to be pretty safe, and I am sure everyone knows before the pay that they will be asked to handle Elapids and then at the course if they are confident enough they'll be able to handle them. I highly doubt at no time anyone was forced to do these courses or forced to handle elapids if they were comfortable. So if you cope a bite it's more your fault then anyone elses because you put yourself in that situation knowing the risks involved.


 HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD THERE PUNJA.... pythons dont even act the same as a heated up eastern brown ...in my opinion if you think you can do a ven handling /catching course and think your 100% safe then more fool you ...of course there are risks involved ,the trainers do there utmost best to avoid it but sometimes things happen ..I am sure in gex's situation that the appropriate 1st aid was given to him ,a best case senario in that situation..anyone that takes part in a risky hobby or job is at a higher % of accidental encounters ,wether it be with animals or machines....I suppose thats what makes the difference between people ,some will do it and some sit back and judge the ones that do ...


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## snakehandler (Mar 12, 2009)

As a trainer I can say when you watch the behavior of snakes they are all different, to hand a person a python and tell them to treat it like it will kill you is not enough. 

There were several analogies made by Duke, but what you are failing to see is what preceded the bite. I cannot comment on any other course that I have NOT attended and hence mods this is not an ad, just clarification, but we go through a series of steps, assessing a persons ability to work with reptiles, their attitudes and responses, we emphasize the dangers involved and will stop people who we feel cannot act in a manner which is appropriate for the situation. I have asked people to leave after the first two hours of the course and others will no get past handling copperheads. People have even failed after they have handled every reptile that is available due to a variety of reasons. Regardless of what the job is or the training is at some stage you must be put into a real life situation.

A driver does not only train on a simulator, an explosives technician does not only use blanks. Venomous snakes do not behave like pythons.


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 12, 2009)

cement said:


> I've never been bitten but I would have to assume there would be instant pain because of the make up of the venom. Bees, hoppy joes etc all sting straight away, is it possible to be tagged and not know it?




This is an intersting poiint Cement. My bite last Thursday was my third from an RBBS but the first that had envenomated me. As soon as it bit me I could feel that there was venom. The pin prick that is associated with any snake bite was accompanied by a little sting around the bite area. This was different to the other bites so this time I bandaged my arm and went to hospital and was right.

But you probably need to experience both to know what I mean.


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## whyme (Mar 12, 2009)

is there some type of indeminity/disclosure form to stipulate that you are handling vens and are doing so at your own free will? and that you understand the dangers associated etc, etc. things like that. just curious


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 12, 2009)

Sydney Wildlife dont get you to sign anything and we have insurance to cover these things.

Also, a small comment on people suggesting that whoever did this course should have certain procedures in place. I am certain that they do. But please remember that people are putting themsleves out to play with venemous animals. If yo do a car racing course with Ian Luff at Oran Park chances are you will get hurt or smash your car. The SAS lose many many more soldiers in training than they do in war. This is a dangerous passtime that people volunteer for. The people in charge do their best to minimise damange and you will find that the accident rate is very very minimal and the actual death rate probably zero. Better than the SAS, car or motorbike racing, bungy jumping, parachuting, rock climbing, rock fishing, surfing with sharks.


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## snakehandler (Mar 12, 2009)

In Victoria you need to sign an indemnity form, this is not only for the course provider, but also the DSE. This is a standard form that you should sign and is provided by insurance companies. With our extensive private sector work we have taken a $20m public liability cover and $10m professional indemnity cover.

However if negligence can be proven and a person is seriously injured that indemnity form is worthless. However a person must be able to prove negligence first, this is difficult if there is a set of standard operating procedures, ongoing assessment and if the instructors are not only experienced but also have certification that they are capable of teaching and assessing (Certificate IV in workplace assessment and training).


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## Frozenmouse (Mar 12, 2009)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> tiger snake bite will be nothing compared to the tidal wave of hatecoming regarding freehandling lol


 bah ha ha


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## Frozenmouse (Mar 12, 2009)

I like to see idiots filling already crowded emergency rooms while sick people wait their turn.


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## whyme (Mar 12, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> In Victoria you need to sign an indemnity form, this is not only for the course provider, but also the DSE. This is a standard form that you should sign and is provided by insurance companies. With our extensive private sector work we have taken a $20m public liability cover and $10m professional indemnity cover.
> 
> However if negligence can be proven and a person is seriously injured that indemnity form is worthless. However a person must be able to prove negligence first, this is difficult if there is a set of standard operating procedures, ongoing assessment and if the instructors are not only experienced but also have certification that they are capable of teaching and assessing (Certificate IV in workplace assessment and training).


 thanks for that.


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## redbellybite (Mar 12, 2009)

Dabool said:


> I like to see idiots filling already crowded emergency rooms while sick people wait their turn.


 If everyone thought like you ,the world would come to a stand still ...you have to take risks in life ..just depends on what type of persons are prepared to go that one step further..people that milk venom from snake ,spider and what ever else ..we need these as much as you think we dont ,they put themselves on the line everyday so that the likes of YOU if ever needed to be treated you can be ...so get back in your box ,you are just talking through your hat now ...


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## emerald_taipan (Mar 12, 2009)

I thought the eastern tiger (notechis scutatus) was number 4 on the list of the worlds most venemous snakes. Has it changed?


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## funcouple (Mar 12, 2009)

m.punja said:


> Duke, I can't see people taking it seriously when using pythons as demonstration tools. In victoria for a while the only course you could do and actually handle elapids was Hosers and his venomoids. I think it's great that now people can actually handle hot elapids. I was so dissapointed that all I got to handle was voids or childrens pythons.
> There is no way to handle elapids and guarantee safety. Around more experienced keepers that can read snakes better makes it more safe but doesn't guarantee anything because accidents happen.
> Tiger snakes, in my experience, are usually a very forgiving snake for newbis, I have heard of many people being headbutted by tiger snakes or they will just bluff hooding their necks and hissing. Also Tiger Snake Antivenom is very easy to get around most parts of Australia so Death from a Tiger Snake bite, you'd have to be pretty unlucky. Especially if you are in a room filled with other herpers and experienced people in Elapids and first Aid.
> I don't think people would take courses as seriously or be more inclind to teach themselves with wild Elapids if all you could handle was pythons or colourbrids. Plus it'd be a stupid idea that people can get their license to catch and relocate after only practicing on pythons, that in no way would prepare you and you'd have no confidence at all.
> At the end of the day, of all the courses out there being done and all the students handling elapids in these environments this is the first student bite I have heard of so I still concider courses to be pretty safe, and I am sure everyone knows before the pay that they will be asked to handle Elapids and then at the course if they are confident enough they'll be able to handle them. I highly doubt at no time anyone was forced to do these courses or forced to handle elapids if they were comfortable. So if you cope a bite it's more your fault then anyone elses because you put yourself in that situation knowing the risks involved.


 


Dabool said:


> I like to see idiots filling already crowded emergency rooms while sick people wait their turn.


mark you have said it so well yet again.

i wonder if you would call one of these idiots if you had a venomous snake in your yard that needed relocating Dabool.

thanks for this thread Gex, and all the experienced handlers that have added to it. its interesting and helpfull reading for a keeper that has an interest in vens that has made his mine up if i wish to learn more and keep them. cant wait to read some more interesting posts.


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## mysnakesau (Mar 12, 2009)

emerald_taipan said:


> I thought the eastern tiger (notechis scutatus) was number 4 on the list of the worlds most venemous snakes. Has it changed?



He is still there. But what I don't understand is that the Inland Taipan is our Number One snake yet is not listed on the Top 10 Australia's most Dangerous Animals, while the Tiger receives 8th spot. 

Obviously there is a difference between dangerous, deadly and venomous. I am trying to read up on what it is that can make our most venomous snake not even hit the top ten dangerous animal's list. I am thinking perhaps the tiger is considered more dangerous than inland taipan regarding temperament. Is he more more fiesty, more likely to bite than the taipan? 

We only got to play with one tiger at the course I did. While doing the course though, you're so focused on the job in front of you, you don't think to stop and appreciate their beauty so I don't even remember what colour he was or anything about his behaviour except everytime I tried to straighten his tail out his head came back around to his tail


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## snakehandler (Mar 12, 2009)

Our most venomous snake has not killed many people, is in remote areas therefore fewer people come in contact....that makes it less dangerous.....

Deadly refers to the number of actual deaths recorded.........dangerous relates to the venom toxicity, location, frequency of bite and likelihood of people coming in contact with it.


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## crocdoc (Mar 12, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> Our most venomous snake has not killed many people.


I think it's _any _rather than _many. _As far as I know there's never been a death by an inland taipan.

You guys are correct, dangerous is a combination of things - distribution (around cities vs remote), inclination to bite and toxicity, among others. The most dangerous snakes in the world are some of the Asian vipers (especially saw-scaled and Russell's vipers), simply because they're ambush predators (don't move out of the way when approached), are quick to bite, have bites which destroy tissue (leading to gangrene infections), are widespread in distribution and live almost entirely in areas where the populace is mostly poor and barefoot with little or no access to medicine.

By comparison, the inland taipan lives in remote areas, is more likely to flee when approached and is likely to only ever encounter people wearing suitable footware. 

As a consequence, thousands of people die each year from bites by saw-scaled vipers whereas the annual death toll from the inland taipan is... zero.


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## AUSGECKO (Mar 12, 2009)

Hi James,
I was wondering where you`ve been mate. Thats bad luck you got tagged, Im glad to hear your doing ok. If we go out herping, i`ll be sure to take you somewhere there are no tigers :lol:


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## MrBredli (Mar 12, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> But what I don't understand is that the Inland Taipan is our Number One snake yet is not listed on the Top 10 Australia's most Dangerous Animals, while the Tiger receives 8th spot.



Because 99.999% of Australians will never come into contact with an Inland Taipan, due to the fact they are found in very remote parts of Australia. Browns, Tigers and Coastal Taipans are much more 'dangerous' to us Aussies, as they live in close proximity to many people.

Edit: Should have read further down the page before replying, the question has already been answered (twice).


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## emerald_taipan (Mar 12, 2009)

notoriety obviously plays a part aswell. How many people have even heard of or seen a picture of an inland taipan and recognised it? not many i imagine


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## snakehandler (Mar 12, 2009)

Inland Taipans have killed two people that I know of!


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## crocdoc (Mar 12, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> Inland Taipans have killed two people that I know of!


Out in the wild or people playing with captives? The latter doesn't count - if it did, horses would be one of the most dangerous animals in Australia. They kill more people annually than venomous snakes, sharks and box jellyfish combined.


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## Jonno from ERD (Mar 13, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> Inland Taipans have killed two people that I know of!



G'day Sean,

Do you have any references for this? From what I can find out, there has been some very close calls but no recorded deaths?


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## snakehandler (Mar 13, 2009)

I have only been told of these by the former owner of the business and in light of recent findings about his "factualy information" I should be more careful with what I state. He told me that one person ahd died very quickly as a reaction to the venom, he was based in Adelaide and the second he gave little information about it.

Since your posts I have done further digging.....I will stand corrected as I have NOT found any information about deaths from inland taipans.

One reference I have read though was stating that there is a high chance that people have died from it but it was mis-identified in the early days as browns....

However as it stands...I have found no evidence to back it up...only individual statements one from a guy who I can no longer trust and another from a person at CSL who also mentioned the person in Adelaide.


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## -Peter (Mar 13, 2009)

I was recently told of one death from a captive animal but I cant find any data to back up the claim. 
Horses? I was bitten by a horse, thankfully it must have been a dry bite.


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## snakehandler (Mar 13, 2009)

Just as a follow up, we have been investigating further and prior to 1974 there was no good scientific data to describe the inland taipan....often mistaken for a brown. Prior to this _Parademansia microlepidota_. had been recorded only from dead specimens, and had gone missing for almost 100 years (from scientific eyes anyhow). A few rare cases of envenomation had occured prior to acurate knowledge of the snake, however the signs and symptoms matched that of the few recorded cases of inland taipan bite, some of these resulted in death....no accurate record of inland taipan bites are available prior to 1967, this single case was originally described as a western brown bite, however in 1972 the dead specimen was re-examined and it was noted that it was _Parademansia microlepidota_. The person did not die from the bite.


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## -Peter (Mar 13, 2009)

One of the effects of a tiger bite is peripheral nerve damage. This can result in the loss of various senses, usually temporary but can last quite a while. This can be simple but scarey things like loss of taste or smell, tunnel vision and other vision problems. Spatial awareness can also become impaired. Along with that is the possibility of serum sickness.


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## snakehandler (Mar 13, 2009)

Not on my list of things to experience!


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## baxtor (Mar 13, 2009)

-Peter said:


> One of the effects of a tiger bite is peripheral nerve damage. This can result in the loss of various senses, usually temporary but can last quite a while. This can be simple but scarey things like loss of taste or smell, tunnel vision and other vision problems. Spatial awareness can also become impaired. Along with that is the possibility of serum sickness.


 
The vision impairment I experienced can best be described as perfect vision from each eye seperately but the combining of the two images wasn't happening leading to the spacial awareness problem you mention. This was very short term problem though.


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## hodges (Jul 20, 2011)

gex01 said:


> The thing is ive been into reptiles now for twenty years what is the point of sueing ,everybody wants to sue these days hows about we kill the snake to because it bit me. I THINK NOT accidents happen and that is exactly what it was and i beleive being there and the way it happened that it was nobodys fault not the handlers not mine i did the course at my own risk and unfortunatly this occured. AS for naming which course i will not as im am not going to ruin someone good reputation for an accident come on everyone we have to realize accidents cant always be avoided nobodys perfect.



Sorry to bring this old thread up again. What happened to you saying it was your own responsibility not the handler ? ive been contacted a few times now about this whole drama which i find really sad to think the handler took his time an effort to conduct a small course in an effort to educated us and this has happened. Plus all the information you have given/said on here i'm sure will not work in your favor.


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