# JAGS in australia



## moreliainsanity (Dec 6, 2008)

Hello herpers,

It's been a while now(few years) of people speculating and assuming that Jags made it here downunder, Finally seen a few in flesh(thanks for a mate who took me to another herpers place) Camera was not allowed fair enough.so sorry no pics

I got the impression that this Morphs have a neuro condition and apparently according to the breeder himself that he's seen majority of jags that he knows of are affected by such condition. they look different for sure but for what it's worth, would you keep jags when they come available? Even though they have this so called problem(defect)

I went with my mate as i have been always intrigue by this morph (interested) but after seeing a beautiful animal that's not quite right I have change my opinion. The breeder still breeds them even though he's aware that they have a huge chance of hatching defected animals(which I don't think it's right) they can apparently hatch out without a problem and
can grow normal and bang just gets triggered and neuro starts.

He also mentioned of a few overseas breeders that end up freezing clutches that showed extreme neuro as soon as they have hatch. I also been told that there's a few clutches hitting the market this seasonhere in Oz . Now they are a nice animals but would you take the chance in owning some even though you know what risk awaits? would you part with your hard earned cash to own jags or rather enjoy looking at them pics on the net instead of owning some and end up with disappointment.

No Flamers please, Just an open discussion

Leigh


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## Camo (Dec 6, 2008)

Oh with all the spy camera's today could you of not got us some picture's :lol:


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## tomcat88 (Dec 6, 2008)

how much?


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## m.punja (Dec 6, 2008)

can you go into detail with the neuro condition?
I know of one that is meant to be a stunner but can't stop bobing it's head, is that what you are talking about? It is a pitty being that they are such a sought after morph.


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## moreliainsanity (Dec 6, 2008)

m.punja said:


> can you go into detail with the neuro condition?
> I know of one that is meant to be a stunner but can't stop bobing it's head, is that what you are talking about? It is a pitty being that they are such a sought after morph.


 
Yeah that 's it, so would you keep some even though you know the risk involve?


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## moreliainsanity (Dec 6, 2008)

tomcat88 said:


> how much?


 
I did'nt ask but I don't think they are really expensive as for obvious reasons.


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## tomcat88 (Dec 6, 2008)

so one Jag bobs its head and suddenly they all have Neuro conditions :?


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## m.punja (Dec 6, 2008)

does it effect them in any way. I know it seems crule but what proofe is there that it is. Not sure if iI'd keep them but I'm not a fan of carpet pythons. Don't mind the look of albino's and some of the jungles getting around but I am mostly bored with carpets. I would have to see one in the flesh and keep one to decide how I feel about them. So I guess that means I would keep one, as a trial.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Dec 6, 2008)

Does the neuro condition effect all jags or just a couple every now nad then?


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## m.punja (Dec 6, 2008)

tomcat88 said:


> so one Jag bobs its head and suddenly they all have Neuro conditions :?


 
Not sure where Moreliainsanity is from but I highly doubt we are talking about the same Jag. On top of that he is going off what he has seen from a breeder so I am guessing he saw more then just one or he wouldn't be asking the question.


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## MrBredli (Dec 6, 2008)

Would i take the risk? No i wouldn't... in fact i wouldn't even start a thread stating i know where some are being kept (if i did, which i don't), customs would be very interested in that information. This is not like the GTP situation at all so don't be fooled into thinking "once they're here, we're in the clear"; customs will go after anyone who has Jags and they will nail them too. Good luck to anyone trying to sell any this year, you must be either very stupid or very brave.


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## tomcat88 (Dec 6, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Would i take the risk? No i wouldn't... in fact i wouldn't even start a thread stating i know where some are being kept (if i did, which i don't), customs would be very interested in that information. This is not like the GTP situation at all so don't be fooled into thinking "once they're here, we're in the clear"; customs will go after anyone who has Jags and they will nail them too. Good luck to anyone trying to sell any this year, you must be either very stupid or very brave.


 
which is why anyone who has any should send me a pm instead of advertising on a for sale section so that they dont get busted by customs and i can finally own one of these beauties!!!!!!!


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## m.punja (Dec 6, 2008)

haven't people been going to a lot of trouble to breed jags in australia? Or at least Jag imitations?


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## moreliainsanity (Dec 6, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Would i take the risk? No i wouldn't... in fact i wouldn't even start a thread stating i know where some are being kept (if i did, which i don't), customs would be very interested in that information. This is not like the GTP situation at all so don't be fooled into thinking "once they're here, we're in the clear"; customs will go after anyone who has Jags and they will nail them too. Good luck to anyone trying to sell any this year, you must be either very stupid or very brave.


 
Hi Mr. Bredli,

Would you like me to read my post to you or do you want to read it slowly, I'm not very stupid or very brave, maybe you are for answering so quick without even analysing which side of the fence i'm on, what legal issues am i facing for starting a thread????

disaterpiece 7.0,
I cannot answer your question but i'm sure there's some infos about them.

Leigh


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## Jason (Dec 6, 2008)

its a known fact that some jags will have or get probs, there are long threads on them on american forums etc. not all of them have the probs and from what i hear breeding a jag with the probs doesnt pass it on, its random as far as im aware.


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## moreliainsanity (Dec 6, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> i don't), customs would be very interested in that information. This is not like the GTP situation at all so don't be fooled into thinking "once they're here, we're in the clear"; customs will go after anyone who has Jags and they will nail them too. .


 

Mr. Bredli, 

Me again I am having a nightmare being inside a Interogation room, Bright light onto me, sorrounded by big men on suits getting bashed with a phone book asking" who keep Jags, Tell us or we are going after your family too you have to tell us where you seen Jags!!!!!

Leigh


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## pinkmus (Dec 6, 2008)

> Me again
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOFL:lol::lol:


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## Kurto (Dec 6, 2008)

Just wondering if your friends friend is comfortable about you talking about his/her illegal animals on an open forum?

Just my opinion but I think your asking for trouble.

As for Neuro issues, click on over to Reptile Radio and have a listen to what the some of the major carpet breeders in the states have to say. Seems like theres only a small percentage of animals with neuro issues. But, generally when one inbreeds the **** out of any species your gonna some side effects.


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## MrBredli (Dec 6, 2008)

moreliainsanity said:


> Hi Mr. Bredli,
> 
> Would you like me to read my post to you or do you want to read it slowly, I'm not very stupid or very brave, maybe you are for answering so quick without even analysing which side of the fence i'm on, what legal issues am i facing for starting a thread????
> 
> ...



Maybe you need to read my post again, and then you can point out to me where i said you had, or intend on selling, any Jags??? 

All i say to you is that i would not be advertising the fact you know where Jags are being held - i'm sure the owner of the snakes will be very impressed with you, particularly if he ends up getting busted!


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## chilli (Dec 6, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Would i take the risk? No i wouldn't... in fact i wouldn't even start a thread stating i know where some are being kept (if i did, which i don't), customs would be very interested in that information. This is not like the GTP situation at all so don't be fooled into thinking "once they're here, we're in the clear"; customs will go after anyone who has Jags and they will nail them too. Good luck to anyone trying to sell any this year, you must be either very stupid or very brave.



i think that the gtp situation just gives the green light to smugglers, if customs and npws couldn't care about all the gtp's smuggled in over the last 5 years, then i'm sure they won't care about a few mutant carpets that they can't prove were smuggled in. stop the scare campaigns, it's open slather when it comes to customs.


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## MisLis (Dec 6, 2008)

It's jag to jag matings that have the problems. Breeders still persist in the hope to produce a leusistic carpet but they have major neuroligical problems and usually die. That's why most jags are jungle, diamond , Irian Jaya and Bredli crosses, they show the Jag traits (pattern etc) but not the neuroligical probems.


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## Renagade (Dec 6, 2008)

at what point do you classify 'inbreeding the ****' out as. this is a topic i'm a little touchy about but no body seems to be able to tell me where it stops being 'line' breeding and becomes "inbreeding the **** out of' sorry to go a bit off topic, but these nuralogical disorders surely will become more prevellant in the future of designer morphs??


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## MrBredli (Dec 6, 2008)

chilli said:


> i think that the gtp situation just gives the green light to smugglers, if customs and npws couldn't care about all the gtp's smuggled in over the last 5 years, then i'm sure they won't care about a few mutant carpets that they can't prove were smuggled in. stop the scare campaigns, it's open slather when it comes to customs.



If you're sure customs won't care about a few mutant Carpets being smuggled in, then i'm sure you're wrong, very, very sure...


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## Kurto (Dec 6, 2008)

Renagade said:


> at what point do you classify 'inbreeding the ****' out as. this is a topic i'm a little touchy about but no body seems to be able to tell me where it stops being 'line' breeding and becomes "inbreeding the **** out of' sorry to go a bit off topic, but these nuralogical disorders surely will become more prevellant in the future of designer morphs??



I only used those words to describe the american (and possibly the aussie) jag gene pool. which has to be reasonably limited.


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## MisLis (Dec 6, 2008)

There are some good threads on Morelia Pythons (an american reptile forum). If you do a search you will get an insight of the genetics. There is a thread where they talk openly about the problems. True Jags are het for leusistic, which seems to be the problem when het leusistic is put over het for leusistic. Hope this helps.


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## MisLis (Dec 6, 2008)

Kurto said:


> I only used those words to describe the american (and possibly the aussie) jag gene pool. which has to be reasonably limited.


 

The Jag gene is a co-dominant trait. So the gene pool is unlimited.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 6, 2008)

Kurto said:


> I only used those words to describe the american (and possibly the aussie) jag gene pool. which has to be reasonably limited.


 
The Jag gene has been bred out to just about everything possible, and Jag is rarely bred to jag as it results in dead offspring, so I don't know how you come to that conclusion.


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## Kurto (Dec 6, 2008)

fair call. I don't want to take this thread to far off topic, but how limited would you say the american carpet gene pool is? is this not where the original jag showed up?


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## Renagade (Dec 6, 2008)

MisLis said:


> There are some good threads on Morelia Pythons (an american reptile forum). If you do a search you will get an insight of the genetics. There is a thread where they talk openly about the problems. True Jags are het for leusistic, which seems to be the problem when het leusistic is put over het for leusistic. Hope this helps.


 
yeah, it does abit. but it doesnt cover snakes born without eyes due to inbreeding. namely a case that comes to mind with albinoes.
MIs Lis can you explain for me how the jag gene is co dominant and how this means it is unlimited? i'm not crash on genetics.


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## chilli (Dec 6, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> If you're sure customs won't care about a few mutant Carpets being smuggled in, then i'm sure you're wrong, very, very sure...




is that the same customs that identifies P.platurus as S.swaini. they haven't employed anyone competent lately, have they? give us a break, i don't think they'll bar up about jags, when they showed how spineless they are when it came to all the greens, hundreds of them. incompetent fools who deserve to be ridiculed and unemployed.


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## MrBredli (Dec 6, 2008)

chilli said:


> is that the same customs that identifies P.platurus as S.swaini. they haven't employed anyone competent lately, have they? give us a break, i don't think they'll bar up about jags, when they showed how spineless they are when it came to all the greens, hundreds of them. incompetent fools who deserve to be ridiculed and unemployed.



Ummm... no, that would be NSW DECC you're referring to. 

I'm sure you've heard of customs, they're the ones who do all the big drug busts, as well as setting up sting operations to catch person's picking up smuggled GTP's from the Post Office etc...

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Dec 6, 2008)

Renagade said:


> yeah, it does abit. but it doesnt cover snakes born without eyes due to inbreeding. namely a case that comes to mind with albinoes.
> MIs Lis can you explain for me how the jag gene is co dominant and how this means it is unlimited? i'm not crash on genetics.



To put it into a castly simplified context, a reccesive trait such as albinism needs a gene from both parents to show the trait, therefor the best way to get that trait to show is with inbreeding. 

Co-dominant means that some of the offspring will show at least some of that trait, for example you could take a jag and breed it to a normal average unrelated coastal and some will be jags, some will show limited jag like traits and some will just look like a coastal. Therefor you can breed a jag to anything and come out with jags. 

As I said, vastly simplified. Genetics is a highly complex subject.


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## MrBredli (Dec 6, 2008)

They even put together a radio ad regarding wildlife smuggling!

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/Wildlife_smuggling__60sec_1.mp3

Perhaps moreliainsanity should call the hotline; he can help keep our borders secure!


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## junglepython2 (Dec 6, 2008)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> To put it into a castly simplified context, a reccesive trait such as albinism needs a gene from both parents to show the trait, therefor the best way to get that trait to show is with inbreeding.
> 
> Co-dominant means that some of the offspring will show at least some of that trait, for example you could take a jag and breed it to a normal average unrelated coastal and some will be jags, some will show limited jag like traits and some will just look like a coastal. Therefor you can breed a jag to anything and come out with jags.
> 
> As I said, vastly simplified. Genetics is a highly complex subject.


 
Is there any truth behind animals with Jag like traits, from Jag parents?? They should either be Jags or not Jags nothing inbetween unless we are talking about linked genes?


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## Renagade (Dec 6, 2008)

thanks disasterpiece. so, if that is the case, why are these particular jags so inbred to the point of a nuro disease?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 6, 2008)

Renagade said:


> thanks disasterpiece. so, if that is the case, why are these particular jags so inbred to the point of a nuro disease?


 

It has nothing to do with inbreeding.


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## MisLis (Dec 6, 2008)

Renagade said:


> yeah, it does abit. but it doesnt cover snakes born without eyes due to inbreeding. namely a case that comes to mind with albinoes.
> MIs Lis can you explain for me how the jag gene is co dominant and how this means it is unlimited? i'm not crash on genetics.


 
It means that when a Jag is bred with a Jungle, Bredli, Diamond, Murray Darling ( which from what I know has been done in the UK but not in the US yet, I could be wrong) That the Jag patterning will show in the offspring. Even though the original jags were bred in Europe from a coastal to coastal mating, the majority of Jags are crossed with these other carpets to produce the Jag traits but not the neuroligical problems.


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## Renagade (Dec 6, 2008)

where is it from then?


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## junglepython2 (Dec 6, 2008)

Renagade said:


> where is it from then?


 
It is possibly linked to the original mutation and has limited penetrance.


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## MisLis (Dec 6, 2008)

Renagade said:


> thanks disasterpiece. so, if that is the case, why are these particular jags so inbred to the point of a nuro disease?


 
The problem comes when Jag Is bred to Jag (the ultimate out come is a leusistic carpet). Unfortunetly the out come is neurolgical prablems.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Dec 6, 2008)

I have a few theories brewing. I think the offspring that have the strongest jag genes may be the ones showing neuro problems. Superform of jag is leucistic as said, these are the ones that show major neuro problems and don't usually survive. 

As for jags themselves they're said to originate from the netherlands? 

It's supposedly just a random mutation from coastal carpets, but some say there is irian jaya blood and/or cape trib jungle blood in there somewhere. 

I myself will be watching the developement of Stock's "Ghost" Darwin. They're said to follow the same genetics as jags but ghost xghost breeding has not been acheived as yet. From what I've seen irian jayas are extremely similar to darwin, once being classed as variegeta, even after jungles etc were seperated into their own subspecies? These as well as other PNG morelia certainly seem more open to random mutations, granite IJs for example. 

Darwins being the next best thing. If the Ghost x ghost pops out leucistics that have major neuro problems and die, I'm very suspicious that the original jag could have what we know as "ghost" genes to produce the jag gene, and appear as they do from a heavy coastal influence. 

As I've said, these are my little theories that are based on what I've seen, heard and read. I'm definitely not saying this is how it is.


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## Jungle_Freak (Dec 6, 2008)

MisLis
dead leucistic carpet pythons are the result of jag to jag breedings 
not neuro problems ,
any jag can have neuro problems, 
but it appears only a small percentage of jags develope these problems ,
Jags are nice but not worth loosing a reptile collection over ,


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## Palex134 (Dec 7, 2008)

Though Jags are nice, I would much rather have a normal coastal. I've seen many jags in person at shows, and really they are interesting, but nothing spectacular. I guess it's different being across the pond and fully immersed in the "Designer" reptile fad. Though the JagXJag breeding undoubtedly causes F-ed up offspring, I would still be wary of jag genetics. Looking at Ball Pythons over the years, some of those morphs are in fact much more then skin-deep. 

My question is couldn't the breeder who smuggled the animals in claim they were bred here in captivity? Couldn't just by having a pair of adult coastals in his possession, this breeder justify his jaguar stock? Wouldn't his world disprove any right they have to doubt him and conduct a search?


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## Retic (Dec 7, 2008)

The original Jag was bred in Norway in the early 90's and not in America as I am constantly reading on here. 



disasterpiece7.0 said:


> As for jags themselves they're said to originate from the netherlands?


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Dec 7, 2008)

Palex134 said:


> My question is couldn't the breeder who smuggled the animals in claim they were bred here in captivity? Couldn't just by having a pair of adult coastals in his possession, this breeder justify his jaguar stock? Wouldn't his world disprove any right they have to doubt him and conduct a search?



I think the problem will lie with animals such as these: 

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/exciting-pairing-76481 

These are reduced pattern proserpines of the highest quality. These came about through good old hard work by Joel and are the best animals of this type I've seen. 

The problem I see isn't just with people claiming Jags are proserpines, but with everyone botching fake paperwork and claiming them to be simply coastals bred here in Aus, perhaps some animals like these could be labelled as Jags when in fact they're not?

As I have discussed with some people privately, I feel that once people begin trying to sell Jags on the open market all hell will break loose with customs and fake paperwork etc etc. 

I'm just going to sit back and watch it unfold I think. I love jags and definitely want one. But I'll not only be waiting til the heat is off, but til there is established aussie jags of multiple generations. I'll also be choosing who to buy from very carefully. There is a reason custom will want to go after them, the fact that they could carry diseases with the ability to destroy a collection. 



boa said:


> The original Jag was bred in Norway in the early 90's and not in America as I am constantly reading on here.



I thought it was up there somewhere. too many people thinking it's an american morph.


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## Simple (Dec 7, 2008)

Don't want to offend any one or tread on toes but I was told that the Ghost Darwins were incubation morphs.


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## Retic (Dec 7, 2008)

No, there were rumours that it MAY have been incubation related.


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## cement (Dec 7, 2008)

What is it that exactly makes a jag a jag?


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## tomcat88 (Dec 7, 2008)

cement said:


> What is it that exactly makes a jag a jag?


 

i think this has been stated at least several times in this thread alone let alone all the other threads


Edit: forgot to add those prossies that disasterpiece that were bred by Joel are simply stunning!! and pure OZ genetics aswell


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## carpetmuncher (Dec 9, 2008)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> There is a reason custom will want to go after them, the fact that they could carry diseases with the ability to destroy a collection.


 

there is far less chance of them carrying a disease f.o.b, than buying half the stuff here. and besides, if that was the reason, why does every authority turn a blind eye to the hundreds of gtps that have been laundered over the last few years. i think the smugglers might be safe.


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