# Dog roll vs dog biscuits...



## slim6y (Nov 7, 2011)

I already have an idea about the answer to this - but I'd like to get several people's inputs that aren't necessarily vets trying to push the most expensive dog biscuits on the market on me. 

Rather than feed you my opinion - this is what the vet said:

Do not feed your dog dog roll, it is usually low quality, full of fat and salt etc etc.

She also said the minimum standard is AFFCO. 

I recently became a new dog owner (not being able to own snakes in NZ) and I am loving every minute of it. I have a wonderful puppy now 14 weeks old and he's a very good boy. 

But... He doesn't like his biscuits (despite them being something like $40 per bag).

The vet has said, do not give him dog roll and keep at him with the biscuits. But I noted that the dog rolls even have the AFFCO backing on them and ingredients say beef, lamb, chicken, no salts, no colours etc.

So - what do you do for your dogs? 

Like snakes, only the best is the real option - but is a vet just pushing their $40 small bags of awesome dog food on you? Or is there a real point behind the dog roll's hidden nasties?


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 7, 2011)

I feed left over veggies from dinner plus chicken necks/frames, etc(whatever is cheapest) little bit of dog roll plus a sprinkling of dog biscuits and I usually stick a raw egg into their dinner as well, shell and all.

We get lots of comments on how great our dogs look and in eight years the only non standard vet treatment either of them has needed has been for a possible snake bite last year so it seems t be doing them pretty well.


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## kitten_pheonix (Nov 7, 2011)

I agree the dog rolls are a waste of time there 90% water head to your butcher and grab some dog mince, chuck in some pasta or rice and some frozen veggies and freeze. Better than store bought food as its not full of preservatives or salt. But after doing animal care dog Vic's are alot like milk half the time the cheap stuff is the expensive brand in a cheaper package. Mix the biscuits in he may not like the hard part of it and only like soft thing another thing u can do is cover them in gravy


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 7, 2011)

Raw meaty bones and raw mince is all they need with ta weekly serve of organ meat, egg and fish. You can add a small amount of veges but it is not at all necessary.


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## slim6y (Nov 7, 2011)

Was informed raw egg whites are no good because they contain avidin which can interfere with the absorption of vitamin B. Plus raw egg may contain salmonella too (though unlikely with the antibiotic we feed chickens these days).

I will try the butcher and pet meat, but would like to balance the diet with biscuits too. 

I'm trying biscuits soaked in water - I think his real issue is (he likes them) they're hard to eat!

Here's a pic of him anyway (thought you better see who you're helping to be a strong pup  )


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 7, 2011)

Salmonella can be a concern with shop bought eggs especially as they are stored for a while often. Our eggs are harvested daily from our own crooks and are rarely stored for more than a few days before being used. I'm quite enjoying the change of having that luxury, nothing like home grown eggs.


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## slim6y (Nov 7, 2011)

I still think cooking the egg is important to remove avidin from the egg white.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 7, 2011)

you don't need biscuits to balance the diet, a raw diet is already balanced. One egg every week or two is fine. Biscuits are mainly cereal fillers with meat byproducts, and the coating is really bad for their teeth.


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## Frosty (Nov 7, 2011)

My boy is 17 years old. Fresh meat mixed with some fresh vegies and dry biscuits a couple days a week. To much dry food will bind them up making it hard to poo.


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## GC_Pet_Centre (Nov 7, 2011)

Most of the time, vets will promote the food that sponsors their clinic, which isn't a bad thing, because usually its a really good food. But any of the super premium dog biscuits (not the supermarket stuff) are good quality, but every dog is different, and what works for your dog, might not work for others. Its the same with us; take apples for example, they are one of the healthiest foods around, yet some people are allergic to them! Same with dogs.
The better quality food you can buy or make, the better. A bad quality food, or dog roll can be like Macdonalds to humans - you can live on it, it tastes great, but it doesn't do any good in the long run. 
The other benefit to biscuits over softer food is oral health. A dog that isn't fed on hard biscuits throughout his/her life with usually have dental problems, or can even lose teeth within 3-4 years.
I think that if you talk to anyone who has bred or shown dogs, or anyone who rehabilitates dogs will have their own foods that work for them, and it can be different depending on the breed as well. A great dane will have different requirements to a tibetan spaniel, or border collie for example.

If you decide to continue using biscuits, there are a few tricks that our puppy department use to get them a bit more interested. Usually soaking the bickies in hot water for a little while before feeding usually does the trick. If not, they soften it right down to mush and slowly reduce the mush-factor until they are used to the biscuits. If that doesn't work, they feed tinned food or chicken mince at a 50:50 ratio with biscuits and then reduce the amount of mince as time goes on. That usually does the trick.


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## slim6y (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm trying to get him to love Hills Science Diet... Being the science buff and all 

Will try cold water.... then maybe hot water.... meh... I'll get him to eat them one way or another...


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## nagini-baby (Nov 7, 2011)

Put them with warm wheetbix. Puppies love it. Its the only way we can get mums old dog to eat in summer..


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 7, 2011)

You do realise the top ingredient in Hills is corn, and then 2nd or 3rd meat byproducts. It may be expensive but it is not what I would call premium by a long shot. Mixing it with water just makes it even worse for oral health.


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## thomasssss (Nov 7, 2011)

try soaking the biscuits in lactose free milk worked for my pup she was really fussy to as a little one


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## slim6y (Nov 7, 2011)

KaotikJezta said:


> You do realise the top ingredient in Hills is corn, and then 2nd or 3rd meat byproducts. It may be expensive but it is not what I would call premium by a long shot. Mixing it with water just makes it even worse for oral health.




Yes, he's corn fed 

He seems to like the biscuits soaked in water.


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## Smithers (Nov 7, 2011)

I'd never feed dog roll even if that's all I had in the fridge. Processed nasty stuff, Dog kibble is a once a week thing for mine. Raw is the best option. The bulk of the diet is chicken carcass, necks 80%, mince meat,offal,raw fish,vege's,rice = 20%


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## slim6y (Nov 7, 2011)

Oh, and for oral health - he won't stay on watered down biscuits - it's temporary to get him back on them permanently. 

But it is funny you should mention the byproducts, because ironically. the same vet warned us to steer clear of byproduct... hmmmmmm


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## phantomreptiles (Nov 7, 2011)

GC_Pet_Centre said:


> Most of the time, vets will promote the food that sponsors their clinic, which isn't a bad thing, because usually its a really good food. But any of the super premium dog biscuits (not the supermarket stuff) are good quality, but every dog is different, and what works for your dog, might not work for others. Its the same with us; take apples for example, they are one of the healthiest foods around, yet some people are allergic to them! Same with dogs.
> The better quality food you can buy or make, the better. A bad quality food, or dog roll can be like Macdonalds to humans - you can live on it, it tastes great, but it doesn't do any good in the long run.
> The other benefit to biscuits over softer food is oral health. A dog that isn't fed on hard biscuits throughout his/her life with usually have dental problems, or can even lose teeth within 3-4 years.
> I think that if you talk to anyone who has bred or shown dogs, or anyone who rehabilitates dogs will have their own foods that work for them, and it can be different depending on the breed as well. A great dane will have different requirements to a tibetan spaniel, or border collie for example.
> ...



Agree 100% 
There is always going to be disagreements in regards to dog food.
Only thing I will add is if you must feed raw bones make sure it is a femur, and never use bones that have a sawn end. Number one thing to cause slab fractures in dogs teeth.


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## Firedrake (Nov 7, 2011)

Raw femurs are recreational only, you shouldn't give dogs those as a meal. The raw chicken necks and carcasses, with offal and maybe some veges should be all they need as a meal. Don't give them chicken femurs as they can splinter and lamb is a bit too fatty and rich imo. I've honestly never seen a dog that looks better than one on the BARF (bones and raw food) diet and it shouldn't take that much longer to prepare than the kibble and tinned or dog roll meal. Chicken necks/carcasses and lamb hearts/brains/kidneys are all normally available at the supermarket or if they don't have them I'm sure the butchers will.


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## Jay84 (Nov 7, 2011)

slim6y, do a google search 'dog food advisor'. You will be SHOCKED at what bad ratings all the expensive ''recommended by vets'' kibble get!

These expensive foods are rubbish and not worth the money. I was feeding my little one Advance and paying out of my *** for it! His behaviour changed, he became hyperactive and the most annoying little dog! He also developed 4 bald patches, 2 of which were very large. The vets didn't know what was causing it.

I decided at that point to change his diet, to RAW. Almost instantly his behaviour changed, he was still a playful puppy, but not the annoying disobedient jumping all over you puppy like a kid on red lollies! Within 2 weeks his bald patches were growing back, they have now totally disappeared.

I go to the Queen Victoria Market every fortnight and buy livers, kidneys, hearts, tongue and chicken necks. I chop it all up and mix it and weigh it out into individual portions. I also get ''Vets all Natural'' complete mix. This is like a dry muesli mix that you soak in water, it replicates the stomach contents of a prey animal that a wild dog would eat on a kill.

I will never go back to feeding processed or commercial dog foods.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 7, 2011)

My small dogs get brisket bones, chicken wings and drumsticks, frames, necks , big dog gets chicken maryland, breast with ribs, frames, lamb necks, large brisket bones, boiler chooks, cat gets chicken necks, wings, raw fish, prawns, they all get organ meat, raw fish or offal once a week and they all get chicken mince here and there. The key is to make sure you feed bones with meat on them not just bare bones. Food should be about 20-30% there weight a week, so for my 30kg dog its about 800g per day. Costs me $15 to $20 per week to feed two small dogs, one large dog and a cat.



Jay84 said:


> slim6y, do a google search 'dog food advisor'. You will be SHOCKED at what bad ratings all the expensive ''recommended by vets'' kibble get!
> 
> These expensive foods are rubbish and not worth the money. I was feeding my little one Advance and paying out of my *** for it! His behaviour changed, he became hyperactive and the most annoying little dog! He also developed 4 bald patches, 2 of which were very large. The vets didn't know what was causing it.
> 
> ...



My large dog had terrible skin and ear infections as well, he is almost completely cleared up. I treat the ear infection (yeast based) by mixing 2 teaspoons of apple cider vinegar in either his water or mince and his ears which were terrible before are almost perfect now. One completely healed the other just about.


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## Jay84 (Nov 7, 2011)

I have heard the apple cider vinegar is great for lots of ailments. My mum is a bit of an alternative medicine freak lol


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## sarah_m (Nov 7, 2011)

I tried mine on the roll for a while, just for something different. Within a short period of time their weight ballooned!! From my own experience I would NOT be advising anyone to use it. I am still looking for a dry food that I'm happy with.


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## notechistiger (Nov 7, 2011)

These kinds of arguments are silly. Millions of dogs world wide are fed crappy "low quality" food their whole lives and do just fine. Same with dogs that are fed raw foods. There is no hard evidence to suggest feeding "low quality" food will cause any kind of serious reaction aside from the typical allergic reactions, which are also found in raw diets too! I'm not at all "pro-commerical". I just disagree with the whole "commercial foods are terrible, only ever feed raw" (and vice-versa), when it's simply not true. Every single dog is different, people seem to forget that 

Your dog does best on what your dog does best on. That might be commercial, it might be raw, or it might be a mix of both. Give various things a try and see what works =)


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## glassless_mind (Nov 7, 2011)

I wouldn't feed a dog the meat roll, as it is mostly water, and has very little nutrient and vitamin content, regardless of fat and salt.

The concern with foods being "better quality" than others, is whether or not the dog can access the nutrients in it. For example, a dog can utilise calcium in the form of calcium carbonate, but NOT calcium oxalate. So a food could say it has the recommended amount of calcium, but if it's in the form of calcium oxalate, then the dog is bascially getting zero, as it can't use what's in the food. This is the problem with supermarket brands. They are cheaper because they contain the nutrients in cheaper forms, which the dog's bodies may not be able to use = nutrient deficiencies. The expensive "vet" dog foods, will have the nutrients in forms the dogs can use, which costs more, but saves you money at the vets in the long run.

Hills is expensive, and considered better, as it is the ONLY brand of dog food which trials its food on live dogs, and measures nutrient deficiencies over the course of their lives. No other dog food does this. It might be more expensive, but that's why it's worth it.

Advance is crap, I'm not suprised anyone's dog didn't do well on it. One small animal nutritionist told our class it's the equivalent of feeding your dog nothing but 180 pizzas a year. Not a good idea.

Dogs do also have different preferences for food. I had a foster dog who loved beef, but wasn't really keen on anything else. We could leave hot food sitting out in front of him, and he'd sniff it and walk away. You can choose a cheap food your dog loves, and mix it in with the expensive food. Like you're doing with the dog roll I guess.

Canned food is a bit pointless, as it is about 90% water. Soaking dry food in water will have the same effect, but as has already been said, it isn't good for their dental health to just get that all the time. Bones should be given for oral health. The femurs from the butchers should be cut into quarters, so that the marrow is exposed. Otherwise the dog will try to get the open. Great for entertainment, but that cracking sound some people may have heard? Yeah that's their molars. They can actually split a tooth, and that leads to an expensive vet bill. My butcher doesn't charge anything to cut up the bones.

Chicken necks and carcasses have no nutritional value in them at all, they're just entertainment, and something to chew on. They can also carry Campylobacter foetus subspecies veneralis, which is definetely NOT recommended for puppies, older dogs, or immunocompromised dogs as it can lead to very severe diarrhoea, and end in death. Should only be given to healthy, adult animals.

Raw egg white does contain an element that breaks down some other nutrient. Someone said it was Vitamin B. I can't remember if this is right or not. However, I do remember that whatever is in it is counteracted by the egg yolk. It's ok to feed whole eggs, but not either portion alone. They do carry a risk of Salmonella, but in a healthy, adult dog, this shouldn't be a problem. Again, I wouldn't give it to a pup, an elderly, or immunocompromised dog.

I generally wouldn't recommend people make homemade diets. There is no possible way to garuntee the amount of vitamin and minerals in every meal. As seasons change, the food that is on sale changes. People are likely to buy what is cheaper that season, and the nutrients can vary that way as well. The amount of fat, carbohydrates, salt, calcium, antioxidants, protein, etc, will all vary between dogs, and vary as they age. The only way to do this safely is to consult a veterinary small animal nutrition specialist, and work with them to formulate a diet, and review it regularly.

I know people used to feed their dogs god only knows what, and they did ok, but dogs are now living longer and longer. The average livespan for a dog was once 10 years. My neighbour's dog just had her 19th birthday, and she's still chirping. The aim is to keep them healthy and disease free. This requires a diet that is properly formulated, with nutrients and minerals they can access and use, that matches their lifestyle need.


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## Kitah (Nov 7, 2011)

PM sent Slim6y


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## phantomreptiles (Nov 7, 2011)

My bad, I meant if you have to feed a bone (I disagree), as a treat or for dental health.
This was at firedrake


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## camspeed (Nov 7, 2011)

Dogs eat dog biscuits and meat, pretty easy really. Can't understand these people who cook up special din dins for their little darlings.


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## dangles (Nov 7, 2011)

I recommend speaking to a few breeders that have Champion quality dogs as to wat they feed. I know a couple from when i was looking at staffies and rotties that only ever fed dry and their dogs were in awesome condition. At the same time i saw some breeders that fed raw, tbh i couldnt pick it for the life of me when it came down to looks.

I have a recipe here somewhere for raw that consists of chicken/veges/garlic a few diff oils and some pasta that we got from the breeder when we got our staffy. Doesnt cost a great deal to make up either


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## snakeynewbie (Nov 8, 2011)

Further to what dangles just said I'm a big fan of Coprice dog food. It is aussie owned and is reommended by many greyhound racers, i figure. If you can race a greyhound on it then it cant be too bad! I found my dogs always looked very well on this as their main diet and i ran it through one of those comparison point score things and it came out pretty much on par with eukanuba which i was pretty happy with at $35 for 20kg!. Not sure ifyou can get it in NZ though.


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## slim6y (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks for all your comments - we have some strong advocates for the 'fresh food' and some strong basis for the biscuits.

All in all - it is individual - and I personally believe - give the best you can afford for your pets - which is what I did for the snakes and what I'll do for the dog too.

He is happily eating watered biscuits at the moment. I'll continually monitor his health and weight (I live in walking distance to the vet).

My main thoughts were backed up by those about dog roll - it can be a 'McDonalds' treat from time to time or when giving worming tablets.

Thanks again for your replies


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## Jay84 (Nov 8, 2011)

camspeed said:


> Dogs eat dog biscuits and meat, pretty easy really. Can't understand these people who cook up special din dins for their little darlings.



Dogs will eat most things that a human will eat too..... doesn't mean it's good for them. Pretty poor argument you have there lol

You can feed your kids Maccas and Pizza Hut every meal too. Or you can prepare a healthy meal as this is obviously better for them.......


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## Pazzy (Nov 8, 2011)

My dad races greyhounds so i get chicken mince from him and dog biscuits called woofbix and a couple of fish oil tablets a night and the dogs love it..


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## Kimberlyann (Nov 8, 2011)

We make up a huge thing of pasta with either all our left overs in it or a can or two of food, add some garlic, eggs and some sauce just for taste  and biskits during the day


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## ditch (Nov 8, 2011)

Not as sure this will work in NZ, but we sometimes freeze up the hills bikkies in a small plastic bag with water and give them to the dogs like big icy poles to lick and chew during the day.

We always like to mix it up with different things with the bikkies as well as just having non bikkie dinners too. We don't go near the dog rolls, but if you have the time to make up meatballs from mince (we use human grade), rice or pasta and veggies. When/if I cook veggies to go into their food, I don't like to cook them much (still crunchy). Usually I leave the carrots raw because they love to munch on them and it's good for their teeth.

Occassionally we will put tinned sardines under the bikkies. The smells makes them munch through the bikkies looking for that juice. Don't give them sardines or tuna too often though because of the levels of mercury in these oily fish.

Chicken necks are a winner, but with puppies they can sometimes gobble them up too quickly and almost choke on them.


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## glassless_mind (Nov 8, 2011)

Just a note on feeding food for greyhound racers to pet dogs - this food is likely to have far too much energy and protein in it for a pet dog's requirements. A greyhound in full training and racing will be burning off far more energy than an average pet who goes for a half hour walk every day.

The important part about feeding a dog is to feed it appropriately for its age and requirements. Feeding food for greyhounds to a labrador, for example, is far in excess of their requirements and can lead to health problems.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 8, 2011)

I find it interesting that the AVA's major financial sponsor is Hills and Hills is the dogfood most recommended by vets, hmmm. In fact major dog food companies are influential in all areas of animal nutrition training and practice, it is after all a multi million dollar industry and I can't recall health and well being ever being more important than profit to corporations.

An example:

Sponsors - Veterinary Science Foundation - The University of Sydney


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## Bel03 (Nov 8, 2011)

glassless_mind said:


> Just a note on feeding food for greyhound racers to pet dogs - this food is likely to have far too much energy and protein in it for a pet dog's requirements.



Just wondering, were u referring to the 'woofbix' comment when you wrote this? Cause if so, woofbix are actually a really cheap dog biscuit.......you pay something like $10 for a 20kg bag from Big W.......i havent used them, so im not sure what they are like, but i imagine they are just like most other brands out there.


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## cwebb (Nov 8, 2011)

my dane mastiff was so scrawny as a pup, cos i was feeding him crappy cheap biscuits. so i splurged and started him on eukanuba and then advance and the difference was astonishing. he filled out and got really bulky. really top notch stuff i strongly recommend, very expensive but does go a long way.
diesel also gets veges, grated carrot and broccoli stalks, chicken necks and legs, chicken carcasses and massive cow bones from the butcher.
i give diesel eggs all the time, makes his coat shiny. its important to give them the shell as well as it balances out the protein and adds calcium. people who say raw eggs are bad can believe that, but i disagree. out cattle dog has been getting raw eggs a few days a week for 11 years, and diesel now for a whole year and they are extremely healthy and have never been sick (touch wood). experts will tell you raw MEAT is bad for dogs, but i doubt dogs cook it up in the wild haha?
as you can see, diesel is a mega babe of a dog, because he has a fabulous diet and plenty of exercise  good luck with your poochie and try eukanuba or advance!!


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## glassless_mind (Nov 8, 2011)

Bel711 said:


> Just wondering, were u referring to the 'woofbix' comment when you wrote this? Cause if so, woofbix are actually a really cheap dog biscuit.......you pay something like $10 for a 20kg bag from Big W.......i havent used them, so im not sure what they are like, but i imagine they are just like most other brands out there.



Yes and no, I was referring to the people who talked about using Coprice dog biscuits because it's what is fed to racing greyhounds, who need a much higher energy level than your average pooch.

Some friends and I did a complete nutritional study on a greyhound racing and breeding farm once. They were feeding the cheapest dog biscuits they could buy from the shop, whatever was on sale at the time, as well as the skeletons from chicken carcasses.
Needless to say his greyhounds weren't doing very well. They didn't run very well, and he had constant problems with stomach upsets in his dogs, from changing their diet all the time.

Like I said, some supermarket brands may be ok, but do your research if you really want to know, and work out which nutrients the dogs can ACCESS. If the nutrients are in a form they can't use (which is way cheaper), then there's no point feeding it to them, you'll just lead to nutrient deficiencies. 

There is such a huge variation in price because there is such a huge variation in ingredients.

Personally, I would feed Hills to a dog until it was fully grown, then feed a cheaper dog food, possibly mixed in with a better quality one.
Hills may sponsor the AVA, but so far in four years of vet we've had one talk from them, and they gave me a textbook on clinical nutrition. Not exactly brainwashing all vets to feed Hills.
The other companies are drug companies. Some I haven't even heard of, yet they're a "major sponsor". Bayer gave us a night at their factory once, when reps from many differnet animal product companies were there, and we got a tour through their factory and a free anatomy poster... so obviously the major sponsors are what we're going to promote when we're out in practice, because we'd never try anything else for ourselves or analyse the results. We'd definetely take what we got from 1 lecture and tell it to every client for the rest of our practicing lives...

Sorry, but it isn't reality.
I like Hills because they are the ONLY dog food company who tests their food on live dogs and measures the effects over time. This will detect long term deficiencies and excesses. Nothing else will.


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## adfel (Nov 8, 2011)

I have been told something similar... I was told that dog meat and rolls are the equivelant of eating a large mcdonalds meal everynight of the week. 
I did a lot of research, as my dog has a skin condition which is irritated by things he eats. 
We buy a brand of food called "Bonnie" which comes in a 20kg bag and is AUD40.00.... we usually give him a raw egg on top as this is an enticement for him to eat the biscuits and it is a really good way to keep moisture in your dogs coat.... 
Fresh vegetables are always good as well (except corn it gives dogs wind). 

I hope this helps


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## Ramsayi (Nov 8, 2011)

Our dog gets a raw diet predominately made up of minced chicken frames,beef,lamb, offal and some chopped veg with some bakers yeast, fish oil, and egg.Along with raw meaty bones and chicken necks and sardines occasionally.
I asked the breeder about kibble and she came back with this " We use as little dry kibble as possible,if we must we use Supercoat Puppy,there are better ones carried by vets but I think generally it is not the best food no matter how much it costs."


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## glassless_mind (Nov 8, 2011)

You know it's against the law to feed dogs offal right? Because of the risk of Echinococcus granulosus. Horrible parasite. Huge parasitic cysts form, particularly in the liver. They can exist in you for decades before you know anything about it, and they can rupture... It's not pretty. Feeding offal is against the law for good reason.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 8, 2011)

Your kidding right?


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## Ramsayi (Nov 8, 2011)

I reckon I might have a tapeworm cause I'm always hungry :? 



glassless_mind said:


> You know it's against the law to feed dogs offal right? Because of the risk of Echinococcus granulosus. Horrible parasite. Huge parasitic cysts form, particularly in the liver. They can exist in you for decades before you know anything about it, and they can rupture... It's not pretty. Feeding offal is against the law for good reason.


Can you link me to that bit of legislation?


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## Jay84 (Nov 8, 2011)

Against the law????


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## glassless_mind (Nov 8, 2011)

ok I can't find it, thought it's what I've been told, it may not be true (although I have little internet quota and am not going to use it looking up legislation, feel free to google it  ) However, it is a REALLY bad idea. Hydatid disease is nasty. If the offal is completely cooked through then it's fine, as is the stuff in commerical dog food, as it is cooked. Uncooked = hydatid disease. Don't do it!


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 8, 2011)

It is apparently illegal in Tasmania, well I'll be. 

DPIPWE - Hydatid Disease

I think the risk is very minor and you have more chance getting it from fleas than human grade offal but each to there own I guess. Cooking it defeats the purpose of feeding a raw diet. If it was such a huge problem would dingoes and foxes not be dropping dead all over the place from tapeworm. I actually had a dog that once had severe tapeworm infestation and was on commercial dog food, go figure.


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## slim6y (Nov 8, 2011)

Hydatids has virtually been wiped out in NZ. So there's no issue here with offal.



KaotikJezta said:


> I actually had a dog that once had severe tapeworm infestation and was on commercial dog food, go figure.



Doesn't mean that's where the dog picked it up from though - commercial dog food - or is that the point you're trying to make... Not quite sure there. 

My dog chooses to eat cat poo. Not sure exactly how risky this poo behaviour is - but I believe if the cats have worms, he'll contract it too. But I have wormed him already. Not 100% sure if the worming pills a re systemic or just instantaneous. Does anyone know the answer to that. I couldn't get the answer from two vet nurses - but I haven't asked the vet directly yet. 

The packet does say treatment and control (including _E. granulosus_. But does that mean that the dose actually continues to kill new cysts eaten after the pill was taken?


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## Kitah (Nov 8, 2011)

KaotikJezta, the hydatid and flea tapeworms are different species. Dogs and cats do indeed get a tapeworm from intesting fleas, however it is a species that remains within the gastrointestinal tract of the host and just sheds segments in the faeces to reproduce. The control for hydatid tapeworms is mainly in place to protect humans, not the dogs themselves. And feeding offal in Tasmania is banned because they have managed to eradicate the hydatid disease, and they do not want it to arise again. Hence the legislation, and the requirement to have all domestic dogs going to tasmania to have written evidence from a veterinarian that the dog has been treated appropriately to kill off any hydatids prior to entering Tasmania.

Slim6y, intestinal wormers don't really have a prolonged, carry on effect, which is why you need to keep treating your pets regularly, pups every 2 weeks to start off with, and adults at every 3months unless otherwise indicated.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 8, 2011)

slim6y said:


> Hydatids has virtually been wiped out in NZ. So there's no issue here with offal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I wasn't saying it was from the food, sorry I didn't make that clear.



Kitah said:


> KaotikJezta, the hydatid and flea tapeworms are different species. Dogs and cats do indeed get a tapeworm from intesting fleas, however it is a species that remains within the gastrointestinal tract of the host and just sheds segments in the faeces to reproduce. The control for hydatid tapeworms is mainly in place to protect humans, not the dogs themselves. And feeding offal in Tasmania is banned because they have managed to eradicate the hydatid disease, and they do not want it to arise again. Hence the legislation, and the requirement to have all domestic dogs going to tasmania to have written evidence from a veterinarian that the dog has been treated appropriately to kill off any hydatids prior to entering Tasmania.
> 
> Slim6y, intestinal wormers don't really have a prolonged, carry on effect, which is why you need to keep treating your pets regularly, pups every 2 weeks to start off with, and adults at every 3months unless otherwise indicated.



Sorry, my bad, I did mix the 2 up.


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## Kitah (Nov 8, 2011)

No problem, there's so many parasites and they get quite confusing to be honest. I hate parasitology


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## Ramsayi (Nov 8, 2011)

glassless_mind said:


> ok I can't find it, thought it's what I've been told, it may not be true (although I have little internet quota and am not going to use it looking up legislation, feel free to google it  ) However, it is a REALLY bad idea. Hydatid disease is nasty. If the offal is completely cooked through then it's fine, as is the stuff in commerical dog food, as it is cooked. Uncooked = hydatid disease. Don't do it!



I am not going to google it as it would be a waste of time.You made a statement that it was illegal now you are not too sure.Maybe a Taswegian told you?


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't get why people can see that big companies don't care about feeding us junk, hence the reference to rolls being like McDonalds, yet think the big companies that make pet food actually care about our pets health. Here is a link to who owns what and I wouldn't call any of the major players ethical or healthy.

Dog Food - Ethical Consumer Guide


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## slim6y (Nov 9, 2011)

KaotikJezta said:


> Dog Food - Ethical Consumer Guide



So - I randomly pick Hills. It gets a cross by its name.

Here's one reason why:

Animal Testing (funny that, considering it's a pet food company owned by Palmolive-Colgate)

"Record of testing products on animals. Listed on PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals, USA) 'Companies that test on animals'."

Well, now there's a solid backing that I rely on 

I think I can be quite happy that Colgate-Palmolive make food for my dog and have a HUGE funding for it too. Plus, the food that comes from Hills has had YEARS of testing (on animals) - plus the Hills website helps debunk some myths (although just as bias as the myths that were made). And on tip of that - I think it's time people realise that the internet is 'open' - therefore anyone can write anything. The research that backs up these myths is done by professionals. 

Hills passes my pretty strict regime for a company I will buy from 

I agree that dog roll is like McDonalds.

But I don't agree that dog biscuits (such as Hills Science Diet) are unethical nor bad for the dog. In fact, my findings (so far) are quite the opposite.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 9, 2011)

The only thing I said about Hills was their food is mainly corn and meat byproducts which you can see for yourself is on their website in the ingredients for the food. It is not a myth, it is the truth. As for the whole PETA thing, I hate PETA but I am also not naive enough to think that a huge company that makes soap, shampoo and cosmetics doesn't test on animals. That, however is irrelevant with regards to dogfood. At the end of the day it is everyones own personal choice what they feed their dogs, I won't feed Hills as my dog had a severe allergic reaction to it and I don't think a dogs main diet should be rendered cornmeal. Funny thing is when I returned it to the pet shop and said I would be feeding my puppy a raw diet the girl said that puppies cant handle raw meat, I thought that was pretty funny. I was just putting forth the side of the argument that the dogfood companies don't tell.


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## Ramsayi (Nov 9, 2011)

Trouble with all the studies done on dog food is that the vast majority of them have been commissioned by the companies themselves.It's all about marketing and it is a huge business.Bottom line as I see it is that fresh,unprocessed is a much better diet for any animal.


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## slim6y (Nov 9, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Trouble with all the studies done on dog food is that the vast majority of them have been commissioned by the companies themselves.It's all about marketing and it is a huge business.Bottom line as I see it is that fresh,unprocessed is a much better diet for any animal.



The real issue is the regulating bodies - it's AAFCO - and that's all we have.

"Although AAFCO has no regulatory authority, the Association provides a forum for the membership and industry representation to achieve three main goals:

Ensure consumer protection
Safeguarding the health of animals and humans
Providing a level playing field of orderly commerce for the animal feed industry."

Who else will be forking out the money to do independent studies?


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## Firedrake (Nov 10, 2011)

I was told the strangest thing by a friend (who by the way knows nothing about canine metabolism), that you can't feed raw meat after the age of two or your dog will turn savage...


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## slim6y (Nov 10, 2011)

Firedrake said:


> I was told the strangest thing by a friend (who by the way knows nothing about canine metabolism), that you can't feed raw meat after the age of two or your dog will turn savage...



Did he also tell you your dog could lie next to you out stretched to test if he can swallow you whole?

I have been looking at raw food companies in NZ (K9 K9 Natural | Best Raw Dog Food for Healthy Dogs ) - while I think they mean well, and I am sure some of their ideas are correct. They don't seem to base their ideas that our dogs don't live in the wild. They also make a fair few over biased mistakes and they sound a bit 'fundamentalist' as well. 

I think if they eased up on the whole 'nature made it that way' they might be a fantastic food company. However, they are one of the fastest growing companies in NZ.


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## SeaShell (Nov 10, 2011)

I think you have to consider the whole "byproduct" thing as well. When a dog food company says chicken byproduct, it doesn't always mean "crap part of the chicken", it can include the liver, or bone or any of the organs, and the difference between a quality dog food and a cheap one, is the reason for putting the byproduct in. For example, Hills ingredients will say "chicken, chicken byproduct" whereas say pedigree or coles brand might just say "chicken byproduct". This means that coles brand will throw in whatever part of the chicken is cheapest at the time or to fill it up, where hills will use more chicken than byproduct, and the byproduct will be put in for a reason.
Another example, in one of the dry biscuits like pedigree that say "results in firmer stools" or whatever, they add peanut husk to the food to bind the faeces together, whereas eukanuba use beet pulp which is a natural ingredient that allows the body to produce firmer stools, without irritating the stomach. 
So even though the good quality foods, like Hills, Royal canin and eukanuba etc might still say they have byproduct and cornmeal etc, they put it in the food for a nutritional purpose, whereas a cheaper food will use it because its a cheap way to fill up the biscuit bag.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 10, 2011)

Actually most hills does not say chicken,chicken byproduct it just says chicken or meat byproduct. Beet pulp may be natural but not for dogs and how is cornmeal as the first ingredient nutritious to a carnivore.


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## slim6y (Nov 11, 2011)

Of course it's bias - but.... Pet Food Ingredients and Myths | Hill's Pet Nutrition FAQs

"By-products are common ingredients found in both human and pet food. In fact Vitamin E, gelatin, beef bouillon, beef liver and vegetable oils are all by-products. In many countries, "by-products" are very desirable human foods.

Chicken by-product meal is a high quality, concentrated source of protein. We use it due to its low ash (phosphorus) content. It is also very palatable. This ingredient consists of ground, rendered, wholesome parts of the chicken. It includes white meat, dark meat, liver and viscera. The chickens are sourced from human grade processing plants.

Meat by-products consist of the non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat from slaughtered mammals. We specifically use beef or pork lungs, spleens, or livers in our products for consistency and optimal nutrient profile."

Assuming what they say is what they do then I am ok with that 

And to answer the corn question, Hills suggest this:

"Corn is an excellent ingredient because of the benefits it brings to the product. Corn is a highly nutritious ingredient chosen as a source of protein (for muscle and tissue growth), carbohydrates (for energy), fiber, antioxidants (Beta-carotene, Vitamin E, Lutein) and linoleic acid - an essential fatty acid that promotes healthy skin and a luxurious coat.

Hill's uses grades 1 and 2 corn for our pet foods, which are the grades traditionally used for human food products.

While some individuals are concerned about allergies in pets, corn is NOT a common cause of adverse food reactions in pets. Studies have shown that corn causes no more food allergies than any other grain.

Most grains, including corn, are poorly digested before they are cooked. Once cooked, however, they become highly digestible. Corn is also highly digestible, higher than several other grains such as rice, wheat, barley and sorghum.

Some consumers are concerned that corn may be a filler. Fillers offer no nutritional value whatsoever. Corn, as mentioned above, is a superb source of nutrients.

We choose all of our ingredients for the nutritional value they contribute to each product we make."

Dogs are not obligate carnivores either.

We feed 'domesticated' dogs. Simple as that. They are not in the wild, they are not scavenging food. And we're trying to provide a healthy, happy lifestyle for our closest companions. Which is why I asked - is dog roll ok?

Oh - I keep thinking of silly answers after I've saved the post:

Two new things:

On Hills it says the following:

*AAFCO Statement:* Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Science Diet Puppy Large Breed provides complete and balanced nutrition for growing puppies

Where on other brands (eg, Australian made Pedigree) it says:

Pedigree is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for Growth.

Basically that means that they have to put a minimum amount of x-substance in their food but it does not mean it is absorbed by the body. Where as the feeding tests prove that the nutrients given are in fact absorbed.

Further to the beet controversy - that it's not natural for a dog. Well, just take a look at your own diet for example. Surprisingly much of your fibre (eg bread etc) comes from processed foods. I'd have to say that human diet is far less natural than this puppy diet!!!

While I understand we believe natural is best - and for sure, for long lived animals like humans, we really do need to loo after ourselves. But dogs in captivity generally live for 12 - 18 years, and we need to give them the best they can get in that time. 

In the wild, we know that their life expectancy is much less. There is plenty of good reason behind that, including diet!

All the vet has recommended is that we feed our puppy the best we can get for at least the first year of his life. We avoid dog roll at all costs. And we avoid giving foods he doesn't need because this will affect his liver and other internal organs. So on and so on. 

I figure a vet has two motives - one, they want a healthy pet and two... They want to sell their product. And fair enough really!

But at least I won't be going to dog hypnotherapy or dog reflexology  

I think I will stick to listening to the people who studied these animals in depth since veterinary science first began


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## SeaShell (Nov 11, 2011)

KaotikJezta said:


> Actually most hills does not say chicken,chicken byproduct it just says chicken or meat byproduct. Beet pulp may be natural but not for dogs and how is cornmeal as the first ingredient nutritious to a carnivore.



Youre right hills is cornmeal as its first ingredient, most of the others will say chicken, chicken byproduct, though. And no beet pulp is not natural for dogs, but when humans are asking for "firmer stools" it is an ingredient that will naturally achieve this, without the irritation of a cheaper item such as the peanut husk.

If you are so concerned with what is "natural for dogs", why don't you just let your dog go into the wild where it can hunt its own food? Thats natural isn't it? C'mon we are having a discussion about best nutrition for our PET dogs... no need for this 'I'm right, youre wrong' nonsense...


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 11, 2011)

I'm not saying i'm right your wrong, i was just correcting the fact that you said Hills states chicken and chicken by products when clearly it doesn't. If people want their dogs to have firmer stools, the same can be achieved feeding raw food, that's all I was saying, well actually you are the one that started going on about firmer stools. I gave my opinion on the subject of the best nutrition for dogs so it seems your the one taking it way off topic. At the end of the day I am never going to trust a paid study or a study conducted by a multinational soap and toothpaste company when it comes to my dogs nutrition. There are plenty of vets out there that went on to study more than the one second year unit on animal nutrition and advocate feeding raw. They are not too popular with the AVA as it upsets there sponsors, but they do exist. I said before, it is a personal thing and as my dog had a severe reaction to Hills I will not be buying it again.


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## phantomreptiles (Nov 11, 2011)

I think we all need to agree to disagree
What works for one persons dog, may not work for the next.
I have had a chat with the rep from the nz k9 natural company, he was very adamant my dog would never be right being feed on premium dry dog food.....he insisted I needed to feed my dog what she would eat in the wild....my dog would die within a week if she was in the wild. She is not conditioned for the weather, she is not use to the energy expenditure required, how would she find food, and I don't believe there are any queen sized beds in the wild! 
A poster has already said "we are feeding pet dogs, NOT wild dogs" -huge difference.
I believe we are all trying to do the best for our dogs, and some of us believe raw is best, some think hills, euk, roy can etc is best, I personally think if you are arguing on this thread in regards to the best food, you must care very much for your dog
Me, huge fan of a balanced premium dry dog food, but seen many a dog on a raw diet looking blooming amazing!!!! So obviously it is working for them. 
Though I do believe it is very hard to get the calcium intake right for pups on a raw diet, seen too many with problems when on an unbalanced diet at a young age, (too much/too little) a small breed pup will always need a higher calcium concentration than a large breed pup, but for completely different lengths of time - this is my only negative comment.
Ohhh I lie! I do not like bones, I think I already said, most slab fractures in canine teeth are caused by sawn off bones. Many a case of pancreatitis has been seen after a dog has ingested a large amount of marrow, along with many an exploratory surgery to retrieve lodged bits of bone, not forgetting the endless enemas caused by bones, and the emergency cases that have a bone lodged across their upper jaw....ahh bones.................

To play devils advocate though - why are 90% of male cats that have urinary probs, such as infections or becoming blocked are always fed an inferior food such as whiskies/friskies.........


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## Firedrake (Nov 11, 2011)

Pretty sure there's a difference in feeding your dog what it *would* eat in the wiild and actually letting it out *i**nto* the wild to catch food...

How about dogs with allergies to everything they use in commercial dog biscuits and tinned food? A friend of mine has just found out one of her dogs is allergic to just about everything in normal dog food and even in some of the hypoallergenic ones, corn, barley, oatmeal, beef and carrot to name a few. They got one from the vets but it's about $100 a bag and probably still has oatmeal and barley in it. It makes her itch and scratch poor thing and it's driving the whole family mental, is there anything she can put on the skin to stop it itching while changing her over to a raw food diet? I know all essential oils are out, Kaotik you said something a while back about Apple Cider vinegar working on your dog's ears, does that work on itching?


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## Kitah (Nov 11, 2011)

I wasn't going to really post on this thread, because I don't particularly feel like justifying everything... but I will post on the topic of allergies

Food allergies, contrary to popular belief, are uncommon in the grand scheme of things- dogs become itchy etc _far_ more commonly due to other causes- flea allergy, contact allergy, atopy etc. 

Also- food allergies develop towards _protein_ sources- meat sources are the most common reason - e.g. beef, chicken, pork, lamb/mutton. Also, an allergy can _only_ develop to something the animal has previously been exposed to! if it has never eaten fish, it cannot have a fish allergy. If a dog does have a true allergy to beef for example, it cannot receive beef in any format, whether raw or commercially prepared (unless the commercially prepared diet uses the technique to essentially break down proteins so they are so small they're not recognised by the immune system, so the animal still gets the essesntial protein it needs but no reaction)

Also, a dog cannot develop an 'allergy' to things like preservatives, artifcial colouring etc- these are actually _drug_ reactions, not allergies. 

Firedrake-what type of dog is it, and how old? does the itching occur seasonally, or year-round? if the dog has something better to do, e.g. play its favourite game with the owner, will it stop mid-game to scratch, or does it not scratch at all when distracted/better things to do? and where is it itching? everywhere? or just the ventral abdomen, paws, forelimbs etc? over the tail base? does it have qutie red skin between the toes, in the arm pits and between the back legs? what is used for flea control? if you really think your friends dog actually has a food allergy (unlikely to be honest) then try this- Provide the dog with a novel food diet, i.e. a protein it has never exposed to before (such as duck, fish, venison, kangaroo, rabbit- so long as the dog has _never_ exposed to before) plus a simple carbohydrate source such as boiled potatoes or rice. Feed this diet ONLY (no other treats, nothing- this is ESSENTIAL) for 6 weeks- if there is resolution of signs- you are correct and do indeed have a food allergy. To confirm, go back to your original diet- if signs come back- definite confirmation. However- these novel diets are NOT complete and CANNOT sustain an animal long term, it is soley used to diagnose the problem.

If you answer some of the questions about where she's itchy etc. I can provide some recommendations for you to help reduce the itching until you get the problem under control- you're probably best off PMing me though to avoid this thread going too off topic

____

Finally- if anyone wants to disagree with me, fine- but this is what I have been taught from a five year veterinary science degree, from which I am about to graduate. Yes, I will be another one of those 'vets,' but I'm still human, and have animals best interests in mind (contrary to what people think- vets aren't in it just for 'money'-and you'd be surprised at how little vets earn when you factor everything in) I've stated what I wanted to, so most likely won't discuss it any further unless someone actually has a productive question... I will try and help you if you like though, Firedrake.


Sorry for going somewhat off-topic slim6y. In a way it is related, however, because everyone seems to attribute 'food allergies' to commercially prepared diets.


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## Firedrake (Nov 11, 2011)

PM sent cheers Kitah


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## Cockney_Red (Nov 11, 2011)

slim6y said:


> I already have an idea about the answer to this - but I'd like to get several people's inputs that aren't necessarily vets trying to push the most expensive dog biscuits on the market on me.
> 
> Rather than feed you my opinion - this is what the vet said:
> 
> ...


As the official pooper scooper for 3 nutters.......Bikkies...


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## SeaShell (Nov 11, 2011)

KaotikJezta said:


> I'm not saying i'm right your wrong, i was just correcting the fact that you said Hills states chicken and chicken by products when clearly it doesn't. If people want their dogs to have firmer stools, the same can be achieved feeding raw food, that's all I was saying, well actually you are the one that started going on about firmer stools. I gave my opinion on the subject of the best nutrition for dogs so it seems your the one taking it way off topic. At the end of the day I am never going to trust a paid study or a study conducted by a multinational soap and toothpaste company when it comes to my dogs nutrition. There are plenty of vets out there that went on to study more than the one second year unit on animal nutrition and advocate feeding raw. They are not too popular with the AVA as it upsets there sponsors, but they do exist. I said before, it is a personal thing and as my dog had a severe reaction to Hills I will not be buying it again.



Yes of course, you aren't saying that you're right... you just like saying "Well actually..."
I am terribly sorry for my comment saying that hills states that it has chicken, chicken by product blah blah, I don't have a bag infront of me to read. I'm not taking it off topic, as I understand, this thread is a discussion about the differences in types of dog food, and I was discussing it... so sorry about that too...
If you will also read, I am no advocate of Hills, I'm not pushing it on anyone, it was merely one of the examples I gave, among others, in this "discussion". I have no problem with you feeding your dog whatever you want, and I respect you for the fact that you have gone out and researched your food, and have found whats best for your dog. At the end of the day, thats what matters. 

And Kitah, thank you for your input too, I see that you are a bit put off with taking part in this discussion? Everyone here should be able to offer their opinion without someone saying "well actually, everything you just said is wrong, despite whatever experience, knowledge, study you may have..."


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## Kitah (Nov 11, 2011)

I don't often like to contribute to threads that I know could end up that way... I just couldn't really be bothered dealing with it most of the time, to be honest. 

I believe everyones entitled to their opinion, and I provided mine to Slim6y via a PM. I'm always quite eager to hear new opinions, but for a topic such as this I'm still going off my study, personal and professional experience. I'm not necessarily saying its the case here, but I just don't like it when others argue and believe their way is the only way- "theres more than one way to skin a cat." 

The raw vs. processed pet food debate has been going on for a long time, many of the thoughts are flawed, and I just don't feel like debating it 

Thats all I'll say to avoid going too off topic again


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## SeaShell (Nov 11, 2011)

I agree, the arguement will go on for a long time, probably moreso because there will never be one diet that suits all, and there will be the people who maintain their way as the only way, like you said. Its a shame, I like animal nutrition, and enjoy talking about it and studying it, but this sort of nonsense kinda puts a dampener on things.


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## slim6y (Nov 11, 2011)

Kitah said:


> "theres more than one way to skin a cat."



Being a vet, you should know that. But I've always heard the saying, I think I'd like Penn and Teller to prove if its possible now to skin cats differently 

Kitah - I think what you've brought to the discussion is perfect and exactly what you believe. That's what this interweb thing is for. It's open forum that allows people to voice their opinion. Some more educated than others of course.

However, this topic was more bikkies v dog roll not bikkies v raw food. But I was quite happy to hear people's opinion on raw food too. It wasn't what I expected, but happy it came out


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## Kitah (Nov 11, 2011)

Well at least the mutual agreement by everyone is not to feed dog roll  sorry for going off topic!


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 11, 2011)

Wild-Aura said:


> Yes of course, you aren't saying that you're right... you just like saying "Well actually..."
> I am terribly sorry for my comment saying that hills states that it has chicken, chicken by product blah blah, I don't have a bag infront of me to read. I'm not taking it off topic, as I understand, this thread is a discussion about the differences in types of dog food, and I was discussing it... so sorry about that too...
> If you will also read, I am no advocate of Hills, I'm not pushing it on anyone, it was merely one of the examples I gave, among others, in this "discussion". I have no problem with you feeding your dog whatever you want, and I respect you for the fact that you have gone out and researched your food, and have found whats best for your dog. At the end of the day, thats what matters.
> 
> And Kitah, thank you for your input too, I see that you are a bit put off with taking part in this discussion? Everyone here should be able to offer their opinion without someone saying "well actually, everything you just said is wrong, despite whatever experience, knowledge, study you may have..."



Can you please stop singling me out and twisting everything I say Wild-Aura, how many times do I have to say its a personal choice and that my opinion and why I have it is just that, my opinion. You say you respect that and then you go on with the "well actually" BS , when did I say everything you said was wrong, what I said was you took it off topic and started discussing stools. Not going to respond to you again because you are just trying to start an argument and as Kitah has said the debate has been going on for a long time and neither side is likely to change there minds. I just PMed you by the way Kitah.


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## slim6y (Nov 11, 2011)

See - we can all get along here


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## Tsubakai (Nov 12, 2011)

KaotikJezta said:


> I'm not saying i'm right your wrong, i was just correcting the fact that you said Hills states chicken and chicken by products when clearly it doesn't. If people want their dogs to have firmer stools, the same can be achieved feeding raw food, that's all I was saying, well actually you are the one that started going on about firmer stools. I gave my opinion on the subject of the best nutrition for dogs so it seems your the one taking it way off topic. At the end of the day I am never going to trust a paid study or a study conducted by a multinational soap and toothpaste company when it comes to my dogs nutrition. There are plenty of vets out there that went on to study more than the one second year unit on animal nutrition and advocate feeding raw. *They are not too popular with the AVA as it upsets there sponsors*, but they do exist. I said before, it is a personal thing and as my dog had a severe reaction to Hills I will not be buying it again.



They might not be popular with the AVA as its about evidence-based recommendations and nothing to do with sponsorship. The AVA are a little more professional than to pander to a particular viewpoint solely on the basis of a financial relationship.


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## KaotikJezta (Nov 12, 2011)

So why was Dr Tom Lonsdale thrown out of the AVA when he did an expose on the link between dental disease and commercial dogfood.


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## glassless_mind (Nov 12, 2011)

I have no idea. We get taught the link between dental disease, and some brands and forms of commercial dog food, but not all of them.

Some vets may have studied nutrition and advocate feeding raw.

Some vets may also have studied animal welfare and farm practices, and not drink milk because "milking cows is mean". Yet I'm a vet who's studied animal wefare and farm practices, and I don't agree. I've worked on many dairy farms and they've all seemed great to me.

What you feed your dog is opinion based - it comes from your personal education, as well as what you hear, see and are told by other people. It's also completely subjective, as to the breed of dog, age of dog, health condition, energy requirements and nutrient requirements of that animal.
e.g.
A dog that lies around all day, has a much lower energy level than a greyhound, and does not need to be fed food designed for racing greyhounds
A border collie that chases a ball a couple of times a day, does not have the same energy requirements as the border collie that works stock all day, and runs in excess of 30km per day.
A growing puppy has a different energy requirement to a 3 year old dog, even though they may do the same amount of exercise
A maltese needs different food to a great dane

PERSONALLY, I do believe in hills, but I would mix it with a cheaper brand to pad it out, and probably feed it mostly while the dog is still growing, and less so after that, because of the expense. That's just me.

The AVA is a very broad, national association. If they doubted everyone who came forward with a new idea, or different opinion, they woudln't be the SCIENTISTS, that they are trained to be. If you want to see the research and vets discussing it, go on VIN and read it all for youself, then make up your own mind. I find when people get thrown out of some association, the reason they give you is rarely the whole story.


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## slim6y (Nov 12, 2011)

Good news everybody....

Piri is eating his bikkies (more) now - and even without added water. Unfortunately though, he 'picks' at them and doesn't eat much in one sitting. 

So... Vet thoughts - should I feed less more often... Leave the bowl down with uneaten bikkies.... Feed the same amount remove the bowl and put it back 2 hours later (or some arbitrary time later).

I'm aware you're not meant to leave the bikkies there for the day for them to pick at... Put opinions again.


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## Kitah (Nov 12, 2011)

Awesome, good to hear he's finally started eating them  

For a young pup I'd probably start at 3x daily feedings- measure out the amount he needs (Based on the manufacturers guidelines- you may need to adjust this depending on his body condition) and divide it into these different feeds. 

As an older pup/adult, I'd suggest feeding twice daily. Some dogs can develop an issue where they will start to vomit straight bile if fed only once daily, and its easy enough to divide their meal and feed twice daily. Provided no other animals can pinch the food, I'd give him half his daily food in the morning and leave it out even if he doesn't eat it all (dry biscuits last in a bowl for a while, and remain safe- its only if left out for days/months they can go mouldy and cause issues). He'll probably eat the rest during the day when he desires it. then give the remaining bikkies for dinner


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## slim6y (Nov 12, 2011)

Was told that you should prove food comes from 'you' and not leave the bowl down - He already knows food comes from me, so not sure what harm it does leaving them down (psychologically).

Also, a much colder climate here in the south - less flies, slower fungal growth....

Oh, and BTW - he chose to pick and eat a strawberry while he was helping me to fix the greenhouse. Regardless whether the strawberry is good for him or not, to me it indicates there omnivorous status!

He was quite proud of his pick, and he picked a ripe one too!


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## Kitah (Nov 12, 2011)

I hadn't heard that one before to be honest, and I don't remember anything from my behaviour notes regarding that particular topic/leaving food down (though that doesn't mean there wasn't- It just means I don't remember it 

And I sometimes forget not everyone lives in FNQ. Ahh the joys of extreme heat, humidity and pesky insects

I hope you don't like strawberries if he gets a liking for them haha. Just so long as he doesn't go sampling toxic plants


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## slim6y (Nov 12, 2011)

Kitah said:


> I hadn't heard that one before to be honest, and I don't remember anything from my behaviour notes regarding that particular topic/leaving food down (though that doesn't mean there wasn't- It just means I don't remember it
> 
> And I sometimes forget not everyone lives in FNQ. Ahh the joys of extreme heat, humidity and pesky insects
> 
> I hope you don't like strawberries if he gets a liking for them haha. Just so long as he doesn't go sampling toxic plants



Tulips and daffodils are on his targets - I know daffodils are toxic, not sure on tulips... but he just rips them out of the garden more than anything...


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## Kitah (Nov 12, 2011)

Mhmm tulips are toxic as well unfortunately. Probably not safe for him to be pulling them out incase he does decide to swallow some (though I can't imagine they'd taste good- but animals unfortunately somestimes eat crappy tasting things for whatever reason)... I gather you wouldn't enjoy his gardening efforts much either lol. 

Ah puppies, so much mischief, trouble and cuteness bundled up into one little fluffball 

Poisonous Plants - Tulip - The Poison Plant Patch


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## slim6y (Nov 12, 2011)

My shoes... socks... boxers... are everywhere (where he grabs them and cheekily runs away with them).

Why did I buy him toys when he prefers shoes???

I am thinking of buying a pair of slippers (I hate slippers) so he can just steal them and chew them....


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## Kitah (Nov 12, 2011)

Except then he might not know difference between shoes he's allowed, and ones he's not  

Its kind of like my cats I suppose- buy a cat toy, and they're more interested with the box, or a paper bag or similar...


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## slim6y (Nov 12, 2011)

Kitah said:


> Except then he might not know difference between shoes he's allowed, and ones he's not
> 
> Its kind of like my cats I suppose- buy a cat toy, and they're more interested with the box, or a paper bag or similar...



Box - that's a great idea.

One of my cats (starved of oxygen at birth I think and picked up worms at just a few weeks old too) - was an absolutely adorable cat. She was so playful. But, she loved her shoebox. She'd sit in it and let you fly her around the house. When you landed, she'd get out, look at you, get back in and wait for another ride!

Also, we had a spare curtain wire thing (I'm not overly domestic sorry) which she'd chase around. I was busy studying and she was busying walking around trying to get my attention with the curtain rail in her mouth.

She was a bit special!

Marbles were also a favourite of another one of my feline friends. I taught him to use the stairs and the marble. Unfortunately he loved the game so much that he'd play it at 3am!


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## Kitah (Nov 12, 2011)

Mhmm its off topic again- but one of my cats favourite past times is to chase Hills Oral biscuits- theyre bigger and kind of rounder than standard biscuits, and they roll, bounce etc. perfectly off the walls, and across the polished timber floors. If she's in a 'chasing' mood, she will _not_ eat the biscuits unless it has been flung across the room so she can chase it. if you throw it so it lands right in front of her, and she didn't need to chase- she won't eat it... I do only initiate these play sessions myself though- if she wants to play and I don't want to, she just dips out on the food for a while... she learnt pretty quick to eat when the bowl was offered, and to play only when my behaviour told her so  I've never seen a cat so intent on something- she'll just sit there, head lowered, ears pricked as far forward as possible, intently watching you, waiting for you to throw a biscuit... and as soon as you do, she's off- she'll leap in the air, do back ***** etc, bowl the other cats over to get to the biscuits etc... And like dogs, if you pretend to throw one, she'll often jump or twist around to start running etc before she realises...


aaanyway, dog food.. right


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## hypochondroac (Nov 13, 2011)

I find it odd people saying 'dog roll' is bad for dogs, i tend to look at the ingredients before the product type or brand name and there are just as many dog biscuits that are full of crap as there is meat roll.

Basically i look for preservative free meat sources, leaning towards chicken and fish with some red meat but too much protein is something i find alot of in some of the more expensive up class brands of dog food (Some, not all), be it biscuits or meat. Too much protein in my experience causes skin concerns, bad breath and groooooss poop. 

I'm in agreance when people say that every dog is different, a number of different factors like breed, activity level, age are important but to completely dismiss one kind of pet product is sort of moronic.

I'd feel sorry for my dogs if they were fed one of those new age all biscuit diets that gives them 'everything they need'. How boring. Food is enjoyment for them and variation is my outlook, fish, chicken, pasta, additive, colour, preservative free meat roll and/or biscuits, a teaspoon of oil and loads of vegetables (and of course table scraps).


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## LullabyLizard (Nov 14, 2011)

What's the point of feeding a dog pasta and veggies?


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## slim6y (Nov 14, 2011)

LullabyLizard said:


> What's the point of feeding a dog pasta and veggies?


'

Even in the wild dogs will eat vegetables and some fruit. 

Just like humans, they need fibre. Even though fibre isn't digestible, we still eat it. It helps with the internal workings 

As for dog biscuits - only the good quality ones are what I am concerned with hypochondroac - I consider the supermarket ones to be as good as a packet of Twisties for humans. 

If it has been properly feed tested then I consider it a brand that is worth trying.

Right now my dog is just on the biscuits - but that diet is about to change where he will get a mixture of both biscuits and K9 venison. I can see that this is the only way he'll be truly healthy and happy. I've given the biscuits a good try.

He'll also get cooked eggs (based on people's opinions here and research). But not raw. 

All I want is to see a happy, healthy puppy and one that stays that way throughout his life. He will still have to put up with biscuits for a few days, living rural means the k9 products need to be delivered to my door.


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## notechistiger (Nov 14, 2011)

I haven't met a dog that doesn't like raw eggs tbh.


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## slim6y (Nov 14, 2011)

notechistiger said:


> I haven't met a dog that doesn't like raw eggs tbh.



I love chips, but they're not all that good for me 

Raw egg whites contain a substance that inhibits the absorption of Vitamin B - cooking the egg whites removes the adivin - I'm not saying they won't eat it raw, because I bet they do  I'm saying that research suggests raw egg white is not good for your dog 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ New Post --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I now think I found my happy medium... 

Using K9 freeze dried raw food (venison) and Hills Science Diet.

He now eats the right amount of Hills and the K9. 

Before when he got just Hills he was all "meh..."

Now when he sees the K9 stuff and the water going in to his bowl he's jumping around and yappity yapping and smiling and happy and energetic and full of the beans we want to see in a puppy.

Then he woofs down the lot!

I'm quite pleased with the change. It took a fair whack of finding the most nutritious and healthy diet - and I think I have hit that medium after 4 weeks of trying.

Regardless of his appetite for Hills (he got plenty of food, we never needed to worry there) he is now 10.2kg and has put on 1kg per week since I have got him! 

Thanks again for all your input on dog roll - it got me searching far more and researching more and also got some great advice from people really in the know. 

Thanks again! 

I have to admit, I am so in love with owning a dog. He really is an amazing animal already....

PS - if anyone wants to 'add' something to this discussion, I'm happy to change the topic to - What is the best 'thing' I need to teach my dog?

So far he has mastered:

Sit (does it even when distracted, and is an amazing sitter)
Right down (he goes right down in a flash... When other dogs struggle he does it. The only problem is, if he wants back up again through distractions, it appears he'll do it)
Shake hands (he picked this up on day one. He'd never learnt it before, but he does it all the time now - and even with distractions he's perfect at it!)
Roll over (often requires the right down command first before he'll do roll over)
Speak (he's not as good at this yet, he will try, but nothing comes out. I only reward when he actually speaks. My thoughts were to get him to learn to speak at the door when he wants to go outside)
Wait (he has learnt to wait for food. But not learnt to 'Stay' - I can't seem to get him to stay... yet... I'm working on it)
Come (I don't actually use the come command, because as of yet he prefers come here (the two words) and does it no problems. Though, in high distractions he has selective hearing)

He already walks well, both on a lead and off. So I've not been able to really use the 'heel' command. However, I do try it when he's on the lead and pulling a bit, but he doesn't seem to care for the command, he just does what he's supposed to straight out.

I really really really want to work on 'Stay' this weekend. Just not so sure how I am going to do it yet.

So anyone want to give me a good command I should use?


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## Jeannine (Nov 18, 2011)

*dog food, like some foods for human seems to be the best only if its expensive 

if it is so good for dogs then maybe they should lower the price of it

its like 'healthy' food for humans, ever notice it more expensive then other stuff? if its suppose to be better for you then lower the price and make the other stuff dearer 

then maybe people will stop buying the other stuff and start buying the healthier options for both humans and animals
*


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## slim6y (Nov 18, 2011)

Price is a deceiving influence. People will instantly think the cheap brand is crap, and the expensive brand is good. If the good brand is too cheap, people won't buy it. So it's a really unusual catch 22!

What I never understood though was the difference in price between organic v commercially grown produce and why organic is more expensive? But that is totally off the topic of dog food - although you can buy organic dog foods.

As I said before, I've got my puppy on a pretty expensive diet, and I am believing it's the best for him. He is as happy as I've ever seen and eating far more Hills than ever before. So I think I have hit that happy medium for a happy dog. It does seem a bit unfortunate that the Hills is around $100(NZ) per 7.5kg!! Though, it be fair, that still works out pretty cheap as he eats less than 300g per day!

The other stuff he eats, the K9 freeze dried venison, is around $35 for 40 serves (approx) - so that's actually not too bad. 

The way I see it, and the way most vets let you see it, if you get this part right early, it sets them up for a healthy long life and keeps them out of the vets (and you in the vets buying their food). 

Also - I called up Hills the other day and told them my story - that my dog wouldn't eat the biscuits and I really wanted him to. So they sent me 6 cans of science diet puppy food! Another way to keep me roped in


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## shabori (Nov 18, 2011)

The best book I've read was "Give your dog a bone" by Dr Ian Billinghurst. A vet in aus who tells it like it is. Biscuits and roll both bad. A dog in the wild does what comes naturally. Read the book will solve all questions.


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## longqi (Nov 18, 2011)

My girlfriend prefers her dogs as biscuits
Im not that keen on either biscuits or rolls

But BBQ is fine


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## DeadCricket (Nov 20, 2011)

Not long after getting my pup I had vip dog rolls recommended to me by a dog carer. After reading this I moved her off the roll and she is a lot less hypo... Well as much less as you can expect a puppy to be.

She grazes her biscuits as she likes (luckily she isn't an over eater) and is fed wet food (could be tinned or fresh made) 5 nights out of 7. Between 300-500g of 'wet food' per serve. She is a 7 month old bull arab/bull mastif and is as healthy as they come, growing like a champ and barely an ounce of fat on her (i get worried sometimes but aparently the ribs will show less when she gets a bit older).

I make her a treat occasionally where I mix together any left over roast with a sausage or 2, some fish, rice, some egg and a couple of mixed veg. I top this with some good fish sauce and gravy and she LOVES IT. its also not a bad mix of vitamins etc. I tend to soak a rawhide bone in beef or chicken stock on the nights she doesn't eat so she feels like she has had something. Great for her teeth too.


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## slim6y (Nov 20, 2011)

That's great to hear DeadCricket!

I love mastiffs! But I wasn't too keen on getting a huge dog as my first dog! I'm quite happy with the medium/large size here 

Do you notice now she is 7 months old she's entered the 'teenage' phase of her life and she is beginning to know what's 'best' if you know what I mean 

While they're still only a couple of months old they're very impressionable indeed! You can mould them how you like. But when they start knowing what is 'best' I think it can be difficult. I'm getting that with my human, so it's great to get a puppy that actually listens 

Maybe I should start feeding my human 'Science Diet'!!!


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## Raddy318 (Nov 20, 2011)

i have working dog (hunting dogs) and i feed them dry food with a little bit of youghurt on top so its not so dry. i highley belive in dry food as i had a dog die from eating can food etc


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## DeadCricket (Nov 20, 2011)

slim6y said:


> That's great to hear DeadCricket!
> 
> I love mastiffs! But I wasn't too keen on getting a huge dog as my first dog! I'm quite happy with the medium/large size here
> 
> ...




Yeh we have recently started having some dominance issues but even though she is a big dog, I'm still bigger haha. The funniest 'teenage' moment she has come into is that she doesn't want me telling her its bed time anymore. I go and fluff up the old jumper in her kennel or on her bed (depending how warm it is) and say bed. She comes and jumps in, gives me a few licks and curls up. Last night she wouldn't do anything more then run over, look at her bed, look at me, give me a little lick and then run off again haha


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