# Need help understand Jags



## Virides (Apr 17, 2016)

Hey all!

It would be really appreciated if you could help out below, even if you only know a part of the puzzle 

So we have had a customer add "Jag" to our species list for the Name Plates.

We know that a Jag is essentially a coastal but can also be a hybrid. This creates problems because of how we represent species for the product.

We need to know what our approach should be...

Jaguar "Pure":
Coastal Python "Jaguar"
Morelia spilota sp.
or
Coastal Python
Morelia spilota sp.
Genetics: Jaguar 

Jag "Hybrid":
Coastal x Diamond Python "Jaguar"
Morelia spilota sp.
or
Coastal x Diamond Python
Morelia spilota sp.
Genetics: Jaguar

Coastal x Jungle Python "Jaguar"
etc

What hybrid groups are there also?

1. Coastal x Diamond
2. Coastal x Jungle
3. ?

Also with maps, what would be the way to represent these? Do we mix the ranges of both hybrid animals, or what?


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## SKYWLKR (Apr 17, 2016)

What about

Coastal python x Diamond python (aka 'Jaguar')
Morelia spilota (hybrid)
Location 'non-specific'


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## andynic07 (Apr 17, 2016)

All jags in Australia are mixed species.


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## Sdaji (Apr 17, 2016)

Jag is a morph not a taxon. It mutated in captivity, outside of Australia. It does not have a natural distribution, it does not exist in the wild, it never did.

It's sort of like asking what fruit does 2 + 2 equal, or what is the sound of red.

Distribution maps only work for taxa (species/subspecies etc.).

Your customer may want to insist that they are correct and jag is a taxon not a morph, or likely you know the customer is always right and don't want to point out their error. Probably the closest fit for a taxon would be Morelia spilota with a distribution map including all Morelia spilota (including Morelia spilota bredli/M. bredli). If you're so inclined to consider bredli a different species, Morelia spp as the taxon and all Morelia spilota plus M. bredli distribution.


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## Virides (Apr 17, 2016)

Thanks all that helps heaps


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## africancichlidau (Apr 17, 2016)

Ask Shane, he knows everything.


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## pythoninfinite (Apr 18, 2016)

As Sdaji said, jags are an artefact of mixed captive breeding, and you will never know the lineage of any jag you have, because the originals were smuggled in from overseas, and have been mixed with anything jag breeders can get their hands on here to produce "something different" for the "discerning" reptile keeper. Making labels as you suggest will be totally pointless, and by necessity, misleading.

Jamie


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## Virides (Apr 18, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> As Sdaji said, jags are an artefact of mixed captive breeding, and you will never know the lineage of any jag you have, because the originals were smuggled in from overseas, and have been mixed with anything jag breeders can get their hands on here to produce "something different" for the "discerning" reptile keeper. Making labels as you suggest will be totally pointless, and by necessity, misleading.
> 
> Jamie



Understandable 

I think we might go down the line of having them as something like:

Jaguar
Taxonomy Not Applicable
(Map shown with all Morellia distribution) *Unknown origin

Something to that effect.


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## pythoninfinite (Apr 18, 2016)

Something like "heritage unknown" would do. But note: Morelia has only one "L." It would drive me crazy if you misspelled it. 

Jamie


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## Jackrabbit (Apr 18, 2016)

Sdaji said:


> Jag is a morph not a taxon. It mutated in captivity, outside of Australia. It does not have a natural distribution, it does not exist in the wild, it never did.



Well you learn something everyday.


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## andynic07 (Apr 18, 2016)

Maybe natural distribution could be a map of Europe.??????


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## Wokka (Apr 18, 2016)

I think you could treat Jag similar to "albino" or "hypo" or caramel in that it describes an appearance .


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2016)

If I were buying one, I personally wouldn't like "Taxonomy Not Applicable"; it's still Morelia species.

I agree with Wokka that, in this particular case, it should be treated just like every other visual morph. There's no point alienating potential customers by describing them the way pure blood enthusiasts do.


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## Ramsayi (Apr 18, 2016)

saximus said:


> by describing them the way pure blood enthusiasts do.



You mean like 'truthfully'?


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## saximus (Apr 18, 2016)

No, I mean negatively. There are ways to be truthful without being negative. Nice try though


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## Virides (Apr 18, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> Something like "heritage unknown" would do. But note: Morelia has only one "L." It would drive me crazy if you misspelled it.
> 
> Jamie



Was a typo  our listings are with one L 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Plenty to go from here, thanks for all the clarification. I do agree that this looks to be more of a visual thing like Albino.


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## africancichlidau (Apr 19, 2016)

How about "Mongrel"? Or maybe "Half Breed"?


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## pythoninfinite (Apr 19, 2016)

Ah, but it wasn't a one-off typo - in your lists and your following post, you spell it with two "L"s every time... Not a problem though, it's just that I'm very pedantic about labels and spelling, especially scientific names. Comes from my days in Museum exhibition work.

Jamie


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## Virides (Apr 19, 2016)

pythoninfinite said:


> Ah, but it wasn't a one-off typo - in your lists and your following post, you spell it with two "L"s every time... Not a problem though, it's just that I'm very pedantic about labels and spelling, especially scientific names. Comes from my days in Museum exhibition work.
> 
> Jamie



I have looked over our listing (virides.ecwid.com) and they are all there with one L. Understandably this post is shown with two Ls but this was a typo. I am not sure what you are refering to as we want to ensure it is all correct  Are you able to point out where you are talking about with a weblink?

- - - Updated - - -

This is what we have done - https://www.facebook.com/Virides/ph...337902372519/1142208872485412/?type=3&theater

It was based on all the comments here and best represents a difficult situation with regards to how our Name Plates are structured.

Thanks all for the help


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## Bushfire (Apr 19, 2016)

Maybe just listed as Carpet Python Morelia sp. instead of the morph name and scientific name, we can't even be sure it's a spilota species and most wouldn't.


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## BrownHash (Apr 19, 2016)

I would put _Morelia sp. _as the scientific name, and instead of a distribution map I would have a paragraph with a little bit about Jags and their history.


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## Wally (Apr 19, 2016)

After viewing this thread for a couple of days now I still can't comprehend someone that buys a jag but wants to put an ID tag on it's enclosure.


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## cement (Apr 19, 2016)

This is a joke...
I must be dreaming...


On the distribution map, show the Aus coastline but add to it a picture of the Hamburgler from Mcdonalds, flying a plane, with a bag over his shoulder with loose notes of cash falling out as he flies towards Australia.


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## pythoninfinite (Apr 20, 2016)

Virides said:


> I have looked over our listing (virides.ecwid.com) and they are all there with one L. Understandably this post is shown with two Ls but this was a typo. I am not sure what you are refering to as we want to ensure it is all correct  Are you able to point out where you are talking about with a weblink?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



I didn't mean your catalogue list, I meant your initial post in this thread, where every time you typed Morelia, you did it with two "L"s (4 or 5 times). It's no big deal if you're aware of the correct spelling, but if you're the one who makes up and sends off the info to the name plate maker, you might end up with incorrect spelling on the finished product. I just thought I'd point that out to you.

Like the others though, a distribution map for Jags is totally meaningless. They have no natural distribution themselves, and the genetics are so mixed up you'll never know the origins of any animal you have.

Jamie


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## chilli-mudcrab (Apr 21, 2016)

Nice to see you old timers returning , was getting pretty boring round here with all the my Python won't eat and watch should I name my baby jungle discussions, but I feel like this whole jag debate is what killed this website from its heyday by the constant bickering over the whole jag situation.


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## Virides (Apr 21, 2016)

Didn't mean to open up a topic with such history lol 

I have fixed the original post to be as Morelia.

Also while it is understandable that having a map isn't true to the animal exactly, the way our Name Plates are structured required a map. So we used the distribution of all subspecies and specified this note on the Name Plate. We are thinking of having a Hybrid Category and with this we might approach the data represented here in a different way. I guess as long as we have a note on there explaining it, then it's better than just making up any range for them.

Also we didn't have them originally listed, but because we allow anyone to send in the animal they require, then it was only inevitable to get something not all agree on. We just wanted to ask those who have a better understanding so we didn't create a product blindly, so thanks heaps for your input!

For the circumstances, it's the best we can do for any customer who has this type of animal


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## BredliFreak (Apr 21, 2016)

Just have Morelia spilota spp. on it and have the entire carpet and Bredli distribution map like others have said, so it can include other morphs and things like Gammon ranges carpets or cape york carpets


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## Ramsayi (Apr 21, 2016)

Virides said:


> Also while it is understandable that having a map isn't true to the animal exactly, the way our Name Plates are structured required a map.



In that case a map of Norway would be the most accurate.


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## andynic07 (Apr 22, 2016)

Actually isn't the map for natural distribution? Either you would have Morelia spilota and Morelia Bredli distribution to cover all species and sub species as no one knows the true sub species of a jag. I was thinking of no natural distribution as the jag morph has never lived in the wild but then thought it is only a morph no different to albino or hypo or zebra.


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## cement (Apr 22, 2016)

Its quite different to albino and hypo. 
"morph" ology... as a term describes a look, but genetics and mixing of a complex does make a big difference.
There was a time not that long ago, that you could look at a carpet python and know what locality it naturally occurred in, or at least be very close.
These days there are a lot of snakes in captivity that would never have been produced naturally, so therefore a distribution map for them is a joke.


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## andynic07 (Apr 23, 2016)

I don't see jag different from albino or hypo in regards to them all being a "look".


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## cement (Apr 23, 2016)

Your right that there is no natural distribution, and yeah I guess on a certain level they are just produced for a "look". Surely no one would be breeding them for their pole dancing abilities......


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