# Some Morelia's



## QldMorelias (Jan 26, 2009)

As it seems to be the hot topic here are a few lines a mate is working on ,and yes they are crosses.


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## itbites (Jan 26, 2009)

hmmmm...

No comment


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Jan 26, 2009)

im not for hybrids,but looking at them snakes you cant say there not pretty.
there up front about them being hybrids so well done.


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## snake_boy (Jan 26, 2009)

niice snakes


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2009)

The old 1st post of notoriety. and leg it Chessnut eh.:lol::lol:


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## Khagan (Jan 26, 2009)

They are nice, got nothing against hybrids myself long as they are sold as such.

*Waits for everyone to come in saying they are ugly mongrels etc etc*


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## wizz (Jan 26, 2009)

looking Good mate


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## Renagade (Jan 26, 2009)

wow. some interesting patterns. they look cool.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Jan 26, 2009)

nice stuff, what are they crossed with?


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## melgalea (Jan 26, 2009)

i will be honest and say i am not a huge fan of crossing snakes. but in all fairness, the 2nd and 4th are extremly nice looking pythons. what are they crossed with if u dont mind me asking.


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## Southside Morelia (Jan 26, 2009)

Stunning RP's, your mate has there! lol


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## polpii (Jan 26, 2009)

3rd snake looks insane :shock:


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## Kurto (Jan 26, 2009)

I can't help but like the reduced pattern!


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## krefft (Jan 26, 2009)

Great looking snakes. What are they crossed with? How much would he sell #4 for?


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## caustichumor (Jan 26, 2009)

Wow, look at how 1 article in a reptile mag has calmed the herd!


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2009)

It could be a wind up. Or am i just an old cynic.:lol::lol::lol:


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## krefft (Jan 26, 2009)

I was thinking that, but you can read the real estate section in the first photo. $4.5m for a house in carrara if anyone is interested.


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## draqonfly (Jan 26, 2009)

looks sick ! i like the 2nd 3rd and 4th ones.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Jan 26, 2009)

is the 3rd one for sale?


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2009)

ryanharvey1993 said:


> is the 3rd one for sale?


It comes free, if you buy one of his Ligers.


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## Lewy (Jan 26, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> Wow, look at how 1 article in a reptile mag has calmed the herd!


 

LOL that's what I was thinking:lol:


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## ravan (Jan 26, 2009)

wow, 1st and 4th are absolutely stunning!


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## -Matt- (Jan 26, 2009)

cockney red said:


> It comes free, if you buy one of his Ligers.


 
Haha good one  first hybrid joke so far I believe lol

Very nice looking snakes your mate has got there, Im amazed there has been no flaming :shock:


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## SCam (Jan 26, 2009)

Mattsnake said:


> Haha good one  first hybrid joke so far I believe lol
> 
> Very nice looking snakes your mate has got there, Im amazed there has been no flaming :shock:


 yer same!!!
im gonna keep an eye on this thread and see who makes the first move


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## ryanharvey1993 (Jan 26, 2009)

looks like the reptiles australia article has changed people. I wasnt against them before as long as they were sold as what they are. some of them are really nice.


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## Hoon84 (Jan 26, 2009)

krefft said:


> I was thinking that, but you can read the real estate section in the first photo. $4.5m for a house in carrara if anyone is interested.


 
Little expensive, Ill take the VZ commodore in the 2nd picture...lol


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Jan 26, 2009)

Lewy said:


> LOL that's what I was thinking:lol:


 iv always had the same veiws-
if they are upfront about what it is i dont mind them.some of the hybrids today are gorguz but i just dont see myself having them but other people are different,goodluck to them


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## krefft (Jan 26, 2009)

Everyone seems to be in a good mood right now, so if you have any pictures of your mates crosses don't be shy...looks like you won't be bitten!


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## Khagan (Jan 26, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> Wow, look at how 1 article in a reptile mag has calmed the herd!



I've never purchased a reptile mag . I was actually noticing people slowly changing their stance on hybrids before the mag anyway, i think some people just didn't like them to go with the crowd seen as before mentioning you liked hybrids would be grounds for being shot =P.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Jan 26, 2009)

yers more pics of your "mates" snakes please, they look awsome


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## WombleHerp (Jan 26, 2009)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


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## Khagan (Jan 26, 2009)

herpsrule said:


> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha



Am i missing something?


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Jan 26, 2009)

i think its great people are chaging there minds on the hybrid topic,as long as the breeder is upfront and honest there no probs.i love looking at the new crazy *** morps and hybrids but wouldnt keep them but thats just cause i love native pure reptiles,thats just me and everyones different.
At the end of the day there all snakes
cheers


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## SCam (Jan 26, 2009)

i think the ppl tht do protest against them have jst given up


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 26, 2009)

These look like Proserpines x jungles to me. That right? Or are they actual Jags. 

They look hell good. I'd love one just as a show off animal. Don't have intentions to breed a hybrid.


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## -Matt- (Jan 26, 2009)

I think most people have the opinion of if the breeder is up front of what the animal actually is then theres no problem


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## Lewy (Jan 26, 2009)

The problem is that not every one is honest and If it looks more like a jungle or a woma or what ever they will sell it as that to get more $$$$$$$$$$$$ this is the problem 

Then the new owner will then breed from this and so on and so on THIS IS NOT GOOD

Other wise yes the animals in this thread are very nice indeed but shouldn't be done IMO

Lewy


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jan 26, 2009)

Cross or no, those RP's are crackers! Hope to produce some of my own in the not too distant future. What were they crossed with?


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## Vixen (Jan 26, 2009)

reptilegirl_jordan said:


> i think its great people are chaging there minds on the hybrid topic,as long as the breeder is upfront and honest there no probs.i love looking at the new crazy *** morps and hybrids but wouldnt keep them but thats just cause i love native pure reptiles,thats just me and everyones different.
> At the end of the day there all snakes
> cheers


 
People are still forgetting its illegal.


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## mistymtn (Jan 26, 2009)

My guess Jag...


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## Lewy (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> People are still forgetting its illegal.


 

This is also very true


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jan 26, 2009)

mistymtn said:


> My guess Jag...


 
Would be tough to cross those with jags as all the newspaper ads under the snakes are from Gold Coast papers.


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## Khagan (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> People are still forgetting its illegal.



Is it ever enforced though?


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## Bushfire (Jan 26, 2009)

Depends what state you are in. Ive never heard of it ever being enforced so in QLD it may be illegal on paper but in reality its passively accepted


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## seumas12345 (Jan 26, 2009)

They are cool but VixenBabe makes a good point. I wouldn't be braggin about my hybrids or crazy breeding programs or you'll find RSPCA knocking on your door and writting you a huge fine!!


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## itbites (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> People are still forgetting its illegal.


 

Exactly & there are a lot of valid reasons why it's illegal to cross breed.. 

Nice snakes or not they aren't meant to be!

Personally I don't think they are attractive...but then most Morelia bore me


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> People are still forgetting its illegal.


 true babe.but i guess they dont care as long as they get there money at the end of the day


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## bigi (Jan 26, 2009)

interesting, thanks for sharing with us


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## caustichumor (Jan 26, 2009)

The only possible hybrid Morelia I would consider owning would be Green! And not by concious decision. Simply by the fact that there are quite a few mixed bloodline Chondros around...


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## Kyro (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> People are still forgetting its illegal.



Depending on what state you live in, let's not forget NSW has species numbers for several hybrids.


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## raist (Jan 26, 2009)

this is just my personal, amatuer opinion but they look amazingly similar to Jaguar Carpet Pythons. Well done to your mate for producing some good-looking animals. Does anyone here think that there is a line of Jaguar-morph carpets being developed in Australia? Dont mean RP but gene carrying Jags..?


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## Ramsayi (Jan 26, 2009)

Jags are already here.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 26, 2009)

looks like someone is trying to hide their jags identity.


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## kandi (Jan 26, 2009)

designer python, very nice looking


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## fraser888 (Jan 26, 2009)

Number 4 is a stunner! Man nice lookers.


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## raist (Jan 26, 2009)

TrueBlue - my sentiments exactly. 

If you did bring jags into the country though, how would you get them established into your collection 'legally?' Offspring of RP carpets perhaps? Be interesting to see how this issue develops and see when breeders will offer these snakes for sale publicly.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 26, 2009)

raist said:


> TrueBlue - my sentiments exactly.
> 
> If you did bring jags into the country though, how would you get them established into your collection 'legally?' Offspring of RP carpets perhaps? Be interesting to see how this issue develops and see when breeders will offer these snakes for sale publicly.



Probably write them in with another clutch you've bred.


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## mistymtn (Jan 26, 2009)

akira said:


> Would be tough to cross those with jags as all the newspaper ads under the snakes are from Gold Coast papers.



That doesn't stop them being imported Jags or offspring crossed imported jags...


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## Mudimans (Jan 26, 2009)

It may be illegal in Qld to cross breed but would that stop anyone breeding albinos up here. Albinos are a mutation and it is illegal to knowingly breed mutations. Not for or against hybrids, some look good like the ones in this thread, others not so much, as long as they are sold as what they truely are.

Alot of people have asked after prices so to me that tells me that there is a market for them, you don't have to buy them or even like them but you can bet that in another 10 years they will be everywhere, just look at America.


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## Vixen (Jan 26, 2009)

Mudimans said:


> It may be illegal in Qld to cross breed but would that stop anyone breeding albinos up here. Albinos are a mutation and it is illegal to knowingly breed mutations. Not for or against hybrids, some look good like the ones in this thread, others not so much, as long as they are sold as what they truely are.
> 
> Alot of people have asked after prices so to me that tells me that there is a market for them, you don't have to buy them or even like them but you can bet that in another 10 years they will be everywhere, just look at America.


 
At least albinos are pure, I would rather people breeding them than hybrids.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> At least albinos are pure, I would rather people breeding them than hybrids.



They also occur naturally.


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## The Devil (Jan 26, 2009)

Except for the last one being a touch out of focus they are great pics. Whoever took those pics should be charging $ for them.

I think the last pic is of a jungle, if so I want it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## QldMorelias (Jan 26, 2009)

Good to see that people out there are open to designer snakes. To my knowledge the animals in the 2nd and 4th photo's parents originate from the Murray Falls area, they were bred togrther and prodeced reduced pattern offspring that were held back, these were then crossed over a lemon coloured hypoish coastal, producing the 2nd and 4th. Most of the clutch look like these. The first is crossed with a B&W jungle i think. The striped is a Palmerston type. I think that's right, but I didn't write it all down
Will try and get pics of some of the other siblings soon


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## xScarlettex (Jan 26, 2009)

beautiful snakes but im personally not for hybrids


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## Mudimans (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> At least albinos are pure, I would rather people breeding them than hybrids.


True, but you can't always get what you want. Be it for good or bad, chances are your going to start seeing these hybrids more and more. Some people will buy them with no intentions of breeding them, others will buy them to breed and experiment. 

Unless the government really cracks down on people breeding hybrids and euthanising any snakes that are crosses then people are just going to ignore the law because the risk is minimal but the gains could be quite considerable. 

JMO


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## No-two (Jan 26, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> At least albinos are pure, I would rather people breeding them than hybrids.


 
Your argument was that it is illegal to breed hybrids. If you agree to breeding albinos in QLD you're just contradicting your first statement of it being illegal to breed hybrids.

Personally I think they look awesome, although I'd probably only keep one as a pet.


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## caustichumor (Jan 26, 2009)

No-two said:


> Your argument was that it is illegal to breed hybrids. If you agree to breeding albinos in QLD you're just contradicting your first statement of it being illegal to breed hybrids.
> 
> Personally I think they look awesome, although I'd probably only keep one as a pet.



Albino Darwins are not a hybrid, they are a mutation...


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## No-two (Jan 26, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> Albino Darwins are not a hybrid, they are a mutation...


 
You've missed the point. She doesn't agree to hybrids because they are illegal, but she does agree to albinos which are illegal in the state she lives in.


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## Mudimans (Jan 26, 2009)

In Qld it states that it is illegal to knowingly breed mutations, it's just as illegal to breed albinos as it is to breed hybrids. I agree albinos are a natural occurrance but it's just as illegal


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## caustichumor (Jan 26, 2009)

I live in QLD, I can legally own an Albino, (I can also legally own a hybrid) I just can't breed them. However an albino Darwin has the same scientific name as a wild type Darwin, and I have never had to send in a photo of animals I have purchased or bred with any movement advice... So if I inadvertantly bred two hets and the resulting clutch threw out some albino's, I am not liable under any law...


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## pigysus (Jan 26, 2009)

Beautiful looking snakes. I think I would buy one regardless of what the seller described it as. I can't imagine that the price might be inflated by calling it something that it wasn't. They are some of the best morelia hybrids I've seen outside the U.S. 
Somebody said I was suffering from jag-envy and would be for a long time. These could be an answer.


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## Mudimans (Jan 26, 2009)

Then by that you could say that your woma and carpet must have snuck out of their rooms late one night and got busy without your knowledge, thus resulting in a hybrid.  I agree, it is very hard to prove your intentions. I suppose thats probably why the laws dealing with hybrids aren't enforced


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## Khagan (Jan 26, 2009)

Mudimans said:


> Unless the government really cracks down on people breeding hybrids and euthanising any snakes that are crosses then people are just going to ignore the law because the risk is minimal but the gains could be quite considerable.



Wow i'm sure glad you aren't in charge of anything, how would they tell if it's pure or not? Anyone with any type of morph or even a port mac "Sorry mate, but your snake doesn't look pure i'm gonna have to put it down".


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## Mudimans (Jan 26, 2009)

LOL, another reason the laws aren't enforced, how do you prove a hybrid?


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## scorps (Jan 27, 2009)

No-two said:


> Your argument was that it is illegal to breed hybrids. If you agree to breeding albinos in QLD you're just contradicting your first statement of it being illegal to breed hybrids.
> 
> Personally I think they look awesome, although I'd probably only keep one as a pet.




Now everyones open with hypos do you reckon we should come out with our bhp's cross womas and our bredli cross waters now hayden


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## Western python (Jan 27, 2009)

*fantastic*

I think they are fantastic 
None of these Pythons will ever be released back into the (wild ) So whats the harm.


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## megrim (Jan 27, 2009)

Stunning animals.

I'm on the fence when it comes to hybrids, but damn, I can't argue with the results. Beautiful.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks for all the good comments, I completely understand the opposing view, but it definately seems as though there is room for all in this hobby. I have pics of some other Carpet and Anteresia projects that I will post in the coming day or so. Some will be of crosses and others are just the result of line breeding.


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## BenReyn (Jan 27, 2009)

Yeah, I know that the new article has altered my views on Hybrids. Why not aye?
Great looking snakes mate!


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## Colin (Jan 27, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> As it seems to be the hot topic here are a few lines a mate is working on ,and yes they are crosses.



QldMorelia, exactly what are they please? 

I think that if people are going to cross species then they should at least disclose exactly what these crosses are.. 

for example: a jungle (locale if known) x carpet python (locale if known) instead of just "they are crosses" 


thanks.


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## Chrisreptile (Jan 27, 2009)

Colin said:


> QldMorelia, exactly what are they please?





QldMorelias said:


> To my knowledge the animals in the 2nd and 4th photo's parents originate from the Murray Falls area, they were bred togrther and prodeced reduced pattern offspring that were held back, these were then crossed over a lemon coloured hypoish coastal, producing the 2nd and 4th. Most of the clutch look like these. The first is crossed with a B&W jungle i think. The striped is a Palmerston type. I think that's right, but I didn't write it all down
> Will try and get pics of some of the other siblings soon




I think thats about as in depth as it will get.


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## coz666 (Jan 27, 2009)

um..... its done now. so good for you er i mean your mate yeah.
and he is not alone , it has been going on for a long time.
this kind of post usually starts 10 pages of fighting and disagreement.
if the laws changed tomorrow there would be 100 for sale adds.


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## Kyro (Jan 27, 2009)

Any chance of some pics of the parents:lol:


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

I have pics of the parents but dont have access to them at the moment, will put them up later tonight


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## idontlikeurmango (Jan 27, 2009)

Interesting info QldMorelias.

How would you consider it a cross being that Murray Falls in typically Mcdowelli country (or cheynei/mcdowelli intergrade IMO) - unless the lemony hypoish coastal it was put over was infact a hybrid?

Was the B&W crossed with a mcdowelli or was it another locale of cheynei?

Thanks in advance.

Beautiful morelia's either way, thanks for sharing.


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## Kyro (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm guessing a B&W jungle was crossed with a MD to create the snake in the first pic?


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## Colin (Jan 27, 2009)

Chrisreptile said:


> I think thats about as in depth as it will get.




thanks Chris  I missed that post.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 27, 2009)

Colin 
I think they do have an appropriate generic name and that would be Mongrels.


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## Colin (Jan 27, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Colin
> I think they do have an appropriate generic name and that would be Mongrels.



:lol: morelia spilota bitsa (bits of this and bits of that)


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## Retic (Jan 27, 2009)

Beautiful snakes all of them, well done.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

idontlikeurmango said:


> Interesting info QldMorelias.
> 
> How would you consider it a cross being that Murray Falls in typically Mcdowelli country (or cheynei/mcdowelli intergrade IMO) - unless the lemony hypoish coastal it was put over was infact a hybrid?
> 
> ...


 
We consider them still to be crosses as the original animals that originated from Murray Falls did look more like Cheynei than Mcdowelli, as I said those were bred together and the animals that displayed the most reduced pattern were selected, held back and grown up and then crossed to an animal originating from a different locale, however this animal looked more like Mcdowelli than cheynei, it was a hypo-ish and lemon in colour animal. Therefore in most peoples opinion you would consider them a cross, 
what do you think?


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## dames1978 (Jan 27, 2009)

looks and smells of jags to me.......hopefully they will come onto the market for everyone to start building some great colour morphs.....


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## dames1978 (Jan 27, 2009)

oh great lookers.wish they were in my collection


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## Jungle_Freak (Jan 27, 2009)

heres a pic of a jagish looking jungle coiled up in the wild from that area mentioned ,
the pic and locality info was posted on another forum , MP.com 






also a pic of another wild jungle from atherton tablelands 
P Berridge took the atherton pic and it was on his web site for years so there are wild type jagish jungles,





Just something to consider
yes the berridge pic looks shopped but he was known for his shop work, etc LOL
but the colour still would have been similiar etc.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

idontlikeurmango said:


> Interesting info QldMorelias.
> 
> How would you consider it a cross being that Murray Falls in typically Mcdowelli country (or cheynei/mcdowelli intergrade IMO) - unless the lemony hypoish coastal it was put over was infact a hybrid?
> 
> ...


 
The grandparents to the animals in the first post were cheynei from the Murray Falls area, as I said these were bred together producing a few reduced pattern offspring, these were then grown up and bred to a mcdowelli that displayed lemonish colour with reduced black. This cross resulted in the yellow reduced pattern offspring you see in the first post. Therefore being species crosses.
The grey coloured one is from the same reduced pattern Murray Falls offspring (cheynei) but crossed with a Jullatten black and white (cheynei) therefore this pairing isnt a species cross, more a locality cross. In our opinion still a cross as these two animals wouldnt breed together in nature due to differnt Geographic locale


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## dames1978 (Jan 27, 2009)

that second pic, jungle freak is a awsome lookin snake


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## Ramsayi (Jan 27, 2009)

dames1978 said:


> that second pic, jungle freak is a awsome lookin snake



looks shopped to me.


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## idontlikeurmango (Jan 27, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> In our opinion still a cross as these two animals wouldnt breed together in nature due to differnt Geographic locale


 
Totally agree - however:

Either would Brisbane locales and Townsville locales breed in the wild, both McDowelli and not considered a hybrid, would consider it as a locality cross.

Thanks for the info. I have sent you a PM.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

Sorry about the double quote/post.

will post photos of some of the animals produced from the lineages involved. May give everybody a clearer idea of what was bred to what to produce the animals we are talking about.


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## bigi (Jan 27, 2009)

i for one am looking forward to seeing the pics of lineages, Thanks


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## cockney red (Jan 27, 2009)

Jungle_Freak said:


> heres a pic of a jagish looking jungle coiled up in the wild from that area mentioned ,
> the pic and locality info was posted on another forum , MP.com
> 
> 
> ...


Silicone free Aussie stunners.:shock:


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 27, 2009)

Sorry QldMorelia, they just look like JAGS to me.
Say they come up for sale one day, would they be cheaper to market them as crosses than Jags, sure will be less controversial(maybe a little bit) How much would a Killer looking cross carpets be worth?

Leigh


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## cris (Jan 27, 2009)

idontlikeurmango said:


> Totally agree - however:
> 
> Either would Brisbane locales and Townsville locales breed in the wild, both McDowelli and not considered a hybrid, would consider it as a locality cross.
> 
> Thanks for the info. I have sent you a PM.



Locality crosses are still hybrids, its quite likely that jungles and coastals are the same subspecies anyway.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 27, 2009)

Mudimans and No-two,- it is NOT illegal to keep and breed albinos in QLD. The are a naturally occuring mutation, i have spoken to QPWS about this and they have no problem with it. 
What they are talking about are man made mutations that are NOT naturally occouring, as it seems they do not want the reptile hobby going the same way as the bird hobby.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 27, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Mudimans and No-two,- it is NOT illegal to keep and breed albinos in QLD. The are a naturally occuring mutation, i have spoken to QPWS about this and they have no problem with it.
> What they are talking about are man made mutations that are NOT naturally occouring, as it seems they do not want the reptile hobby going the same way as the bird hobby.



What is the definition of a man made mutation?


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## idontlikeurmango (Jan 27, 2009)

cris said:


> Locality crosses are still hybrids, its quite likely that jungles and coastals are the same subspecies anyway.


 
Locality crosses are hybrids?

So a Prosperpine mcdowelli with a Townsville mcdowelli is a hybrid? A Palmerston cheynei and a Tully cheynei is a hybrid??? A Gosford spilota and a Wollongong spilota is a hybrid?????

I vaguely agree with this but it is not common practice to consider two of the same subspecies from different locales hybrids.

I do believe however that animals to as far down as Paluma are quite possibly naturally occuring intergrades between the mcdowelli and cheynei. This just coming from my various field herping and observations no scientific proof of course.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 27, 2009)

disasterpeice,- Some thing that has been produced in captivity and is not naturally occouring.


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## cris (Jan 27, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Mudimans and No-two,- it is NOT illegal to keep and breed albinos in QLD. The are a naturally occuring mutation, i have spoken to QPWS about this and they have no problem with it.
> What they are talking about are man made mutations that are NOT naturally occouring, as it seems they do not want the reptile hobby going the same way as the bird hobby.



Where do you get the idea that this is only applies to man made mutations? Legally you are fine though because it is impossible to breed a mutation, as a mutation isnt a thing that breeds. Whoever wrote that little bit that says you "cant knowingly breed hybrids or mutations" is a complete idiot who doesnt understand english.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 27, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> disasterpeice,- Some thing that has been produced in captivity and is not naturally occouring.



Would that go so far as to say that jags and granites etc woul dbe man made mutation? or are they considered naturally occuring? 

I think this may get a little confusing due to the fact that unless it's a blatent hybrid then who's to say what wouldn't have naturally occured at some stage... Perhaps most recessive mutations have occured at some stage but due to the recessive nature and a fairly diverse bloodline (combines with natural selectiong taking out most hets) they're been sifted out until only a few specimens remain as hets for the original mutation? 

I dunno, I'm just putting things out there. Were they specific about any known mutations that are illegal to breed? 

As far as locality goes I think there's also a bit of confusion on where to draw the line. I personally don't intend to put athertons with lowland forms of jungles (tullies, palms etc) myself, but that's more because I like the smaller size of lowlands then considering it a hybrid. I don't intend to breed coastals anymore, so I'm not gunna add anything to the brissy x townsville debate.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 27, 2009)

They are mainly talking about colour/pattern mutations which can and do readily breed. Not morphological mutations. (which some of which would also be able to breed and would also fit into what they call a mutation so illegal to breed i would pressume).
Like whats happened to budgies and alot of native finches in the bird hobby. Most these days look nothing like a wild type animal.
Reptiles would be alot harder to produce such mutations but as they are closely related to birds, it seems this law was made to cover themselves incase it was as easy.
A very gray area indeed.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 27, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> They are talking about colour/pattern mutations which can and do readily breed. Not morphological mutations. (which some would also be able to breed).
> Like whats happened to budgies and alot of native finches in the bird hobby. Most these days look nothing like a wild type animal.
> Reptiles would be alot harder to produce such mutations but as they are closely related to birds, it seems this law was made to cover themselves incase it was as easy.



Ahhh, i see now. Fair enough. 

Yeah, I'd like to see a blue jungle, or maybe bright red... but it probably won't happen.


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## NickM (Jan 27, 2009)

those are Jags, 
post pics of the bellys, most jags have patternless bellies. If those are not jags they should have normally patterned ventrals

If I am wromng I would expect pics showing normal ventral patterning. If I am correct and they are jags, I suspect my post will simply be ignored.

Nick


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 27, 2009)

[qoute=Trueblue]
looks like someone is trying to hide their jags identity. 





NickM said:


> those are Jags,
> post pics of the bellys, most jags have patternless bellies. If those are not jags they should have normally patterned ventrals
> 
> If I am wromng I would expect pics showing normal ventral patterning. If I am correct and they are jags, I suspect my post will simply be ignored.
> ...


 
I'm with you guys be interesting to grab a pair when they come up for sale,breed them and end up with dead leucies:lol::lol: now that's a dead giveaway


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## ryanharvey1993 (Jan 27, 2009)

how about some pics, with each one, what they are called, what they are crossed with


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## Simple (Jan 27, 2009)

Except for the third one, they look like jags to me.


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## cris (Jan 27, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> They are mainly talking about colour/pattern mutations which can and do readily breed. Not morphological mutations. (which some of which would also be able to breed and would also fit into what they call a mutation so illegal to breed i would pressume).
> Like whats happened to budgies and alot of native finches in the bird hobby. Most these days look nothing like a wild type animal.
> Reptiles would be alot harder to produce such mutations but as they are closely related to birds, it seems this law was made to cover themselves incase it was as easy.
> A very gray area indeed.



I wasnt trying to say that mutations cant be heritable. What i meant was a mutation is a genetic change, it is not the animal that has it. For eg. an albino python is not a mutation it is a python with a mutation causing it to be an albino. I would agree it is a very grey area, possibly why it seems to be rarely enforced.


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## cris (Jan 27, 2009)

idontlikeurmango said:


> Locality crosses are hybrids?



Yes, this sticky thread explains it well.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help/faq-what-is-a-hybrid-44640


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

Hi Guys and thanks for all the PM's We've had stacks and prettywell everyone is in support of the crosses. 
These lines are in the hands of a few people so I have to wait to get pics off them. I'll put up info when I get it. Thought I'd stick up a few of the belly

Quote:
those are Jags, 
post pics of the bellys, most jags have patternless bellies. If those are not jags they should have normally patterned ventrals
If I am wromng I would expect pics showing normal ventral patterning. If I am correct and they are jags, I suspect my post will simply be ignored.
Nick 

Sorry Nick, and everyone else who seems to really want these to be jags.No deal.
A few people have offered to send pics of their crosses which I'm happy to put up if you want to remain annon. 
Cheers guys


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## ryanharvey1993 (Jan 27, 2009)

they are hot snakes, no matter what they are. what is a jag, I have never bothered reading half the hybrid threads as there is to much **** always posted.


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## bigi (Jan 27, 2009)

Hey QLDMorelias, have you got the lineage pics, you were talking about putting up earlier
thanks


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Mudimans and No-two,- it is NOT illegal to keep and breed albinos in QLD. The are a naturally occuring mutation, i have spoken to QPWS about this and they have no problem with it.
> What they are talking about are man made mutations that are NOT naturally occouring, as it seems they do not want the reptile hobby going the same way as the bird hobby.


 
Rob, what do you think about line breeding and selective breeding to the point when an animal looks nothing like its wild type cousin. Is that not the same thing. eg Platinum Spotteds, designer chondros, striped carpets etc
If what you say is representing what QPWS have stated they have a very very large grey area to contend with, so whats wrong with crossing locales and even species to create designer snakes, in essence they are exactly the same thing as line breeding to produce an animal that looks entirely different to a wild animal of that species (which is what most keepers have been doing for the last 10 years). Once again eg Platinum spotteds, Chondros, striped carpets

each to their own


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## idontlikeurmango (Jan 27, 2009)

cris said:


> Yes, this sticky thread explains it well.
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help/faq-what-is-a-hybrid-44640


 
That is not the commonly used definition of Hybrid and certainly not what I am talking about!!! 

I guess almost every breeder in Oz is guilty of hybridising if what you are saying is correct.

A Proserpine locale McDowelli bred with a Townsville McDowelli IS NOT A HYBRID!!!!!!!! It is breeding of two exactly the same subspecies from different localities.

A Tully Cheynei bred with a Townsville McDowelli IS A HYBRID!!!!!!

And with that use of the term you are almost openly encouraging taking from the wild. How else would one know if they have anything pure? God forbid someone back all those years ago didn't have the exact same 2 locales of Tully Cheynei..... In your definition wouldn't a Tully Cheynei from one side of the Gorge and a Tully Cheynei from the other side of the Gorge bred and be a hybrid???? Pfffffttttt...

Back on topic. Beautiful snakes whatever they are QldMorelia, thank you for sharing.


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## ad (Jan 27, 2009)

Fancy trying to hide your jags as hybrids :lol:

Real credible stuff  

Lets see some sibling pics - hehe - thought not.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

Hi all, these pics are of siblings to the parents of the yellow cloured reduced pattern animals in the first post, I am really bad with cameras and computers so the pics aren't great, the first animal traces back to the Murray Falls area and is fairly indicative of what the mother looked like except for the fact that the photo has washed alot of colour out, the second is very similar to the father and as you can see is mcdowelli with reduced black and reduced pattern and in the fleshi s very lemon yellow in colour. Hope these help and hope they work


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## ad (Jan 27, 2009)

hehe siblings to the offspring I meant. :lol: Surely there were more in the clutches?
Even though you are bad with a camera, you are amazingly quick at getting to your mates place for some new pics  Maybe you could zip back there and take some hatchling sibling pics?


Siblings to the parents? Your credibility is weakening, why the new username? Who are you really? 
I love these wind-up threads, :lol:


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## Mudimans (Jan 27, 2009)

Rob i'm not saying that you shouldn't breed albinos or that your doing something wrong but by your own admittion you say that albinos are a mutation. Looking at the Qld EPA site it doesn't say "illegal to knowingly breed hybrids and mutations, but albinos are ok" it says "Illegal to knowingly breed hybrids and mutations" It makes no exceptions.

And as for your argument that they don't want it to go the same way as birds have. Do you not keep holdbacks with a specific pattern or colour to try and breed stripes for example, hypo's, high yellow in diamonds, B+W Jungles, gold headed BHP's. Are these what the EPA are trying to avoid.

I believe you when you say that the EPA aren't trying to stop the breeding of albinos but the government has to be more specific in what they want and what they don't want, going purely by their guidelines we can't breed for any specifc trait. And isn't that the ultimate goal of most breeders?

Once again not having a go at anyone except maybe the EPA


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

My point exactly, not trying to wind up anyone but really we are all doing the same thing, except we (my partners and I) are doing it with different locales and sub species.

no-one is write or wrong just different


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## mistymtn (Jan 27, 2009)

ad said:


> hehe siblings to the offspring I meant. :lol: Surely there were more in the clutches?
> Even though you are bad with a camera, you are amazingly quick at getting to your mates place for some new pics  Maybe you could zip back there and take some hatchling sibling pics?
> 
> 
> ...



You are doing very well at answering the select question you want to answer & avoiding the others, like the ones above.

Something smells fishy!!!


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## ihaveherps (Jan 27, 2009)

QldMorelias, whats the deal with hiding behind a new username.... if you and your partners were as transparent as your trying to play it, there would be no need for the shadow games.... own your creations, otherwise stop selling us your stories from under an alias.


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## megrim (Jan 27, 2009)

idontlikeurmango said:


> wouldn't a Tully Cheynei from one side of the Gorge and a Tully Cheynei from the other side of the Gorge bred and be a hybrid???? Pfffffttttt...



I have my own concerns about hybrids, but for me, that line ^ completely spearheads the silly hystrionics and pedantry that appear on here sometimes when hybrids are mentioned.

All I can think of is Helen Lovejoy screeching "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"


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## QldMorelias (Jan 27, 2009)

Ad
if you have a look back through the thread it has taken me a while to get the pics of siblings to the parents, I dont have the time to go back there and take photos at every request, We have been up front with as much as possible, and more will be added when I have the time. You should be happy with the fact that we are starting to share more pics of the ancestry, until now people ( yourself included) have crucified other breeders for even thinking or mentioning crosses, give us a break, you go your way and we'll go ours


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## Ricko (Jan 27, 2009)

someone just testing the market and seeing what sort of hype they can drum up and alas get some demand?

I think it should have just been done in a more upfront manner, than all this dancing around Q's instead of just posting a pic or 2 of the clutch and what parents they came from but then again you could just show anything and not the real parents.

This can only harm your reputation instead of helping it IMHO

Ricko


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## jasonryles810 (Jan 27, 2009)

mistymtn said:


> You are doing very well at answering the select question you want to answer & avoiding the others, like the ones above.
> 
> Something smells fishy!!!


 

how about you get off the blokes back! its no wonder people never take responsibility for animals that look anything different then the boring run of crap in out hobby atm, if he had come straight out and said they were his he'd been flamed to a crisp. hats off for having the testicular fortitude to even show these pics! we need blokes like qldmoriela who are prepared to experiment with different traits and colours, expanding the hobby and taking it to new and exciting places. 

well done mate, great snakes, look forward to see what you have in 5years time!


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## Kimmy_88 (Jan 27, 2009)

haha this thread has certainly stired the pot.:lol:
but no use denying what is happening out there nowa days... some very nice snakes though...who wouldnt want one! alot of people are all up in arms agains hybrids and imports but who wouldnt say no to something trick like one of these.
i love local specific reptiles...a vast majority of our collection is, but we also have some nice thick stripes coastals and some nice jungles that are unknwn origin but bought because they are hot snakes. 

but each to there own i guess.
wonder how many more people have similar breeding project 
good stuff, kim.


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## phatt01 (Jan 27, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> At least albinos are pure, I would rather people breeding them than hybrids.


 
But its illegal.


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## Vixen (Jan 27, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> But its illegal.


 
No its not, as just pointed out in a few posts above.


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## Hetty (Jan 27, 2009)

Nice jags :lol:


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## Mudimans (Jan 27, 2009)

Until they change the wording, it is still technically illegal, no matter what the man on the phone said. Stupid law i know


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## Hetty (Jan 27, 2009)

What exactly _is_ the wording? because everything has 'mutations'. All animals (including humans) are mutants.


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## Mudimans (Jan 27, 2009)

*Can I breed animals?​*[FONT=Arial,Arial]A person who holds a recreational wildlife licence may breed animals under the licence. It is an offence to knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal; however, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence may breed a mutation, but not a hybrid, of the following: 
• a controlled bird 
• a commercial bird 
• a recreational bird. 
The holder must not breed a mutation or hybrid of a restricted bird or of any species of reptile or amphibian.​A person who holds a recreational wildlife licence that includes international animals may breed an international animal of a species identified on the licence. 
[/FONT]


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## cris (Jan 27, 2009)

idontlikeurmango said:


> And with that use of the term you are almost openly encouraging taking from the wild. How else would one know if they have anything pure? God forbid someone back all those years ago didn't have the exact same 2 locales of Tully Cheynei..... In your definition wouldn't a Tully Cheynei from one side of the Gorge and a Tully Cheynei from the other side of the Gorge bred and be a hybrid???? Pfffffttttt...



You are fooling yourself if you think mixing locales isnt making unnatural hybrids, its unrealistic to expect to somehow maintain a captive population that exactly represtents the wild type anyway. Ppl will breed what they see as desirable, in most cases that is whatever looks nice. There are very few hard set lines in nature, breeding things together just because they are currently given the same name doesnt really mean its anymore pure than something that is currently described as another subspecies. If you could somehow generate a map showing genetic variation in carpet pythons it isnt going to be nice little clear cut lines with dramatic change on a particular line, but rather a fairly continous blend across the whole range with the process of evolution making sure each is adapted to its particular area.


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## phatt01 (Jan 27, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> No its not, as just pointed out in a few posts above.


Yes it is as pointed out a few posts down.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> QldMorelias, whats the deal with hiding behind a new username.... if you and your partners were as transparent as your trying to play it, there would be no need for the shadow games.... own your creations, otherwise stop selling us your stories from under an alias.


 
No alias and no new user name, we simply have kept to ourselves until recent positive talk of hybrids and crosses, until a few days ago none of us were even members of APS, we simply flicked through the forums now and again. We are simply encouraging other keepers to share their breeding programs, we will add other projects and add more pics. 

In relation to other people suggesting we are avoiding certain posts, if I had replied to every PM and every question shot at me, my Mrs would have left me by now for sitting at this friggin computer too long. We have contributed more than anyone else has in the past, give us a break.


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## mistymtn (Jan 28, 2009)

jasonryles810 said:


> how about you get off the blokes back! its no wonder people never take responsibility for animals that look anything different then the boring run of crap in out hobby atm, if he had come straight out and said they were his he'd been flamed to a crisp. hats off for having the testicular fortitude to even show these pics! we need blokes like qldmoriela who are prepared to experiment with different traits and colours, expanding the hobby and taking it to new and exciting places.
> 
> well done mate, great snakes, look forward to see what you have in 5years time!



I suppose if he was upfront about it all & not coming on with a new user name to hide behind & not dodging questions, there would be far less sceptics...
With the very limited information supplied in the first instance, they would know & expect the criticism....don't you think??
Why all the secrecy?


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## Vixen (Jan 28, 2009)

To bad if EPA decide to do a suprise check, here comes a whopping big fine and loss of license.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 28, 2009)

NickM said:


> those are Jags,
> post pics of the bellys, most jags have patternless bellies. If those are not jags they should have normally patterned ventrals
> 
> If I am wromng I would expect pics showing normal ventral patterning. If I am correct and they are jags, I suspect my post will simply be ignored.
> ...



QldMorelias,Any chance you can get a shot of the belly of the first animal pictured in the original post?


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## Radar (Jan 28, 2009)

cris said:


> You are fooling yourself if you think mixing locales isnt making unnatural hybrids, its unrealistic to expect to somehow maintain a captive population that exactly represtents the wild type anyway. Ppl will breed what they see as desirable, in most cases that is whatever looks nice. There are very few hard set lines in nature, breeding things together just because they are currently given the same name doesnt really mean its anymore pure than something that is currently described as another subspecies. If you could somehow generate a map showing genetic variation in carpet pythons it isnt going to be nice little clear cut lines with dramatic change on a particular line, but rather a fairly continous blend across the whole range with the process of evolution making sure each is adapted to its particular area.


 
I have a funny feeling that mango is more than aware of this.....I think the point of the post was to infer that some of these animals may be no more of a 'hybrid', at whatever level you are talking about, than what most breeders produce, especially within the coastal carpets.

JMO


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> To bad if EPA decide to do a suprise check, here comes a whopping big fine and loss of license.


 
Well that is their job, but I bet ya they dont, as it is obviously ignored , it is a well known fact that it goes on in large proportions within the hobby, weather you like it or not.
Bottom line is imo they are lovely looking snakes, and yes I would own one, and if you dont like them, (hybrids) dont look at the threads on them, you dont watch tv shows if you dont like them.. But then I guess some people here probably would.............


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## Slats (Jan 28, 2009)

IMO alot of people here are scared to say they like them. Like being a kid at school and your favourite show is "Lameoids" or such. But you don't admit it because your afraid of being ridiculed. 

Bring it on, It will only bring more to the reptile trade. Look at all the dogs that are "hybridised"
everyone wants a Collie-oodle-elpie-dane-adour


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## TWENTY B (Jan 28, 2009)

beautiful snakes but i still stand the same.
Hybrid's are bhp food.
"Wacking day, oh wacking day. "


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## caustichumor (Jan 28, 2009)

Slats said:


> IMO alot of people here are scared to say they like them. Like being a kid at school and your favourite show is "Lameoids" or such. But you don't admit it because your afraid of being ridiculed.
> 
> Bring it on, It will only bring more to the reptile trade. Look at all the dogs that are "hybridised"
> everyone wants a Collie-oodle-elpie-dane-adour



Those designer dogs all remind me of the bulldog x ****zu joke.:lol:... I like the look of the reduced pattern animals, but I am happy with my "naturalistic representations" of Australian species, A water python or a boring mac holds as much appeal to me as any crossed out or line bred animal. there will always be reptile keepers who are happy keeping healthy native reptiles with boring common and scientific names....And then there will be others who want Jags, Carpondros, ect.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 28, 2009)

Slats said:


> IMO alot of people here are scared to say they like them. Like being a kid at school and your favourite show is "Lameoids" or such. But you don't admit it because your afraid of being ridiculed.
> 
> Bring it on, It will only bring more to the reptile trade. Look at all the dogs that are "hybridised"
> everyone wants a Collie-oodle-elpie-dane-adour



Hybridised dogs? What else have they been crossed with? :?


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## Vixen (Jan 28, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> Hybridised dogs? What else have they been crossed with? :?


 
Exactly, they are all the same species.

Even then I hate all the backyard breeding and labels they stick on crosses just to make a quick buck, its ridiculous. Id go nowhere near a labradoodleshitzpoo thank you.


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## ihaveherps (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> No alias and no new user name, we simply have kept to ourselves until recent positive talk of hybrids and crosses, until a few days ago none of us were even members of APS, we simply flicked through the forums now and again. We are simply encouraging other keepers to share their breeding programs, we will add other projects and add more pics.




Listen, if you want to pull me leg, make it the middle one, and use a repetitive motion.

"Recent positive talk of hybrids" man I must have missed that part...

Be a man and put your normal Username to the mutts.... you slipped when you replied to "Trueblues" post by referring to him as "Rob", and the remark about Ad whipping out the pitchforks and torches everytime he sees the word hybrid.... if you want to lead us on, slips like that will get you caught out, so please try and be more consistant with the tripe your peddling.


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## Ishah (Jan 28, 2009)

Slats said:


> Bring it on, It will only bring more to the reptile trade. Look at all the dogs that are "hybridised"
> everyone wants a Collie-oodle-elpie-dane-adour


 

Grrr! :evil: Damn you people constantly feeling the urge to compare dogs and snakes! Its nothing alike! 

ALL domestic Dogs aka _Canis lupus (lupus)_; Dingoes aka _Canis lupus dingo_

HENCE the only real reference you could make with dogs and snakes would be something like this and this would be THE most accurate you could get by comparing such:

"Crossing dogs is the same as crossing different localities of snakes"

THAT is the closest comparison you could make in reference to dogs and snakes! The only way a dog could possibly be a hybrid is if it was _C. l. lupus_ crossed with _C. l. dingo_!

If I had the time, I would find the post I made that described the whole snake part as well in the Pythons are venomous thread (can't remember the exact name, but something similar).... BUT I'm pretty sure you all know and understand the whole snake part pretty bloody well....but i WILL dig it up if necessary...lol

P.S. I would NEVER want one of those discusting yappy-doodle dogs!.....EVER.... pretty sure I'm not the only one either, so NO.... Not everyone wants a "Collie-oodle-elpie-dane-adour" DEFINATELY wouldnt pay $600-800+ for one either!... I saw one for that price in a petshop more than once!:shock:
I prefer my dogs to be *"locality" *(for want of a better word and to get the point across that they are not a cross/hybrid) specific/pure much the same as I would prefer my snakes, birds or whatever I own to be... if it were possible (with fish, etc)

And no *I'm not *jumping on any bandwagon before anyone says it... I have had much the same views on all/any animals before I was introduced to this hobby... I'm a perfectionist and naturally a purist...have been ever since day dot! I prefer (locality/) pure rottweilers and thoroughbred horses etc etc etc...not just snakes I prefer "pure"...

Yes they are pretty alright looking animals, but I would much prefer the "pure" look-alike "Jags" or whatever they are/you call them, like the naturally occuring wild ones Jungle_Freak posted to those any day! (Sorry, awkward sentencing....my english teacher would of shot me! :lol: but you know what I mean)

Thats my spit for now, enjoy


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Listen, if you want to pull me leg, make it the middle one, and use a repetitive motion.
> 
> "Recent positive talk of hybrids" man I must have missed that part...
> 
> Be a man and put your normal Username to the mutts.... you slipped when you replied to "Trueblues" post by referring to him as "Rob", and the remark about Ad whipping out the pitchforks and torches everytime he sees the word hybrid.... if you want to lead us on, slips like that will get you caught out, so please try and be more consistant with the tripe your peddling.


 if you had read my reply, you would have noticed that we (hybrid keepers/breeders)have all read the forums in the past, just not contributed to them. You dont have to be a regular member of Aps to know the who's who of the reptile world and whats going on in the herp world,


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## The Devil (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> if you had read my reply, you would have noticed that we (hybrid keepers/breeders)have all read the forums in the past, just not contributed to them. You dont have to be a regular member of Aps to know the who's who of the reptile world and whats going on in the herp world,



Ya beat me to it QldMorelias, I had a similar post drafted but you beat me to it. I'm always a little curious about the number of "guests" that visit this site. At the moment there are 47 members and 62 guests on line.

I don't know enough to know if they are jags or just different coastals nor do I know who QldMorelias are, but the snakes look remarkably like some I saw a while ago. 

We in Australia are following the USA trend with cross breeding ect and given the number of jags and greens being "imported" I'm not surprised. I'm looking forward to seeing some different looking morphs in the future.


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 28, 2009)

The Devil said:


> Ya beat me to it QldMorelias, I had a similar post drafted but you beat me to it. I'm always a little curious about the number of "guests" that visit this site. At the moment there are 47 members and 62 guests on line..


 
Yeah some of them guest are from EPA watching the thread like big brother:lol::lol:
No wonder QldMorelia is hiding behind, it won't surprise me if they are just fishing for buyers here, there's always a question on how Jags wil resurface in this game and I think that's what they're trying to do(just my opinion)hide them as crosses
Qldmorelia mentioned he's got loads of pm's, I wonder if one of them is from EPA LOL


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## The Devil (Jan 28, 2009)

I think you'll find that a number of "jags" are being sold as coastals with different tags such as striped, caramel or such.
If he is a seller then I'm a buyer.......


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## idontlikeurmango (Jan 28, 2009)

megrim said:


> I have my own concerns about hybrids, but for me, that line ^ completely spearheads the silly hystrionics and pedantry that appear on here sometimes when hybrids are mentioned.
> 
> All I can think of is Helen Lovejoy screeching "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"


 
Mate I am not the one creating hytrionics.

I am simply stating where does one draw the line? According to cris's definition what I said would be a hybrid.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jan 28, 2009)

The Devil said:


> I think you'll find that a number of "jags" are being sold as coastals with different tags such as striped, caramel or such.
> If he is a seller then I'm a buyer.......


 
Right there with ya Nev.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

Qldmorelias,- Huh, bad very bad examples. Striped carpets and striped jungles are very common in the wild, much more common than most people think. Ive seen wild examples that are as good as any bred in captivity. 
Platinum macs are a naturally occuring intergade between macs and stimsons found on the western slopes of the tablelands and you will find examples of these in the wild that are as good or better than any bred in captivity.
So both these examples that you spoke about are just like their wild type cousins.
As for greens, untill all the recent mass illegal imports the last few years and illegal poaching from the cape, people would get what they could get just to aquire greens. Now it seems there and many pure lines available.

Mudimans,- Im only going by what i understood from conversations with QPWS. I agree the law is silly when it comes to mutations and should be re-worded some what. In the case of breeding hybrids between species and sub-species they need to enforce it more imo.
Once again like Qldmorelias, your examples are all naturally occouring wild type animals, stripes, hypos, high yellow diamonds, b/w jungles and gold headed bhps are all rather common wild type animals.


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## Lewy (Jan 28, 2009)

This is just disgusting all you people who want to destroy the Australian snakes by supporting theses mongrel snakes breeders. You should be prod to have some of the nicest snakes in the world as they are meant to be. I realy hope these breeder get what's coming to them 

Lewy


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## megrim (Jan 28, 2009)

idontlikeurmango said:


> Mate I am not the one creating hytrionics.
> 
> I am simply stating where does one draw the line? According to cris's definition what I said would be a hybrid.



lol no, I'm saying you're the sensible one by pointing out the histrionics that go on here ^_^

I perfectly agree with you, some of the more insane members here seem to think that all animals should be somehow bred to create clones. :lol:


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## idontlikeurmango (Jan 28, 2009)

megrim said:


> lol no, I'm saying you're the sensible one by pointing out the histrionics that go on here ^_^
> 
> I perfectly agree with you, some of the more insane members here seem to think that all animals should be somehow bred to create clones. :lol:


 
Sorry mate! Took it the wrong way.

Anyway I am out of this thread - don't post often. Now I remember why :lol:


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## cris (Jan 28, 2009)

megrim said:


> lol no, I'm saying you're the sensible one by pointing out the histrionics that go on here ^_^
> 
> I perfectly agree with you, some of the more insane members here seem to think that all animals should be somehow bred to create clones. :lol:



Im not saying that ppl should only breed clones (assuming im the insane person you mention), just pointing out that there are heaps of unnatural hyrbids already around. There are also plenty a pure locality animals around and you can even get legal wild caught specimens of some species if thats what you want, but if you arnt interested in the sentimental value of having something that is a pure line from a particular locale then i dont see why it would even be an issue. I personally think its nice to have a pure locale animal, but i still have plenty of animals that arnt or i dont know their background well or at all.

This has already been flogged to death in this thread
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/exotics-other-reptiles/locality-purity-why-does-it-matter-89703


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

To all the haters out there.
you dont have to like what we are doing, the solution is simple, IF YOU DONT LIKE THEM, DONT LOOK AT THEM. We all have the right to our opinion and we all have different tastes in regards to what we want to see bred.
By the amount of positive feedback there is definately room in the hobby for designer animals, in fact there is room for both sides. You guys can go your way and we'll go ours, no bad blood. 

See you haters in 5-10 years


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## gozz (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> See you haters in 5-10 years


 Is that the jail sentence you get for breeding Hybrids ?


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

Thats how long it will take for most breeders to realise this is where the hobby is going.
eg designer greens
Carpondros
Reduced Pattern
Melanistics
A-melanistics
Scaleless
etc etc etc


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## dames1978 (Jan 28, 2009)

I would agree with all that list QLDMORELIAS.....except for CARPONDROS.


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## megrim (Jan 28, 2009)

cris said:


> Im not saying that ppl should only breed clones (assuming im the insane person you mention), just pointing out that there are heaps of unnatural hyrbids already around. There are also plenty a pure locality animals around and you can even get legal wild caught specimens of some species if thats what you want, but if you arnt interested in the sentimental value of having something that is a pure line from a particular locale then i dont see why it would even be an issue. I personally think its nice to have a pure locale animal, but i still have plenty of animals that arnt or i dont know their background well or at all.
> 
> This has already been flogged to death in this thread
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/exotics-other-reptiles/locality-purity-why-does-it-matter-89703




I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, least of all you  Just addressing a general air of zealotry that tends to pop up from time to time. I can see decent arguments for both sides of the divide, I simply don't enjoy the "black-or-white . with-us-or-against-us . good-and-evil" sorts of arguments. Nothing's that simple, surely?.


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## Kersten (Jan 28, 2009)

You seem to have made the assumption that anyone who disagrees with what you consider to be acceptable is automatically a "hater"? Are we supposed to trot merrily along like the Emperor's subjects, blithely ignoring the fact that the dude is up there naked just because we're worried people will think we're stupid if we speak out? Sure, there are some extremists, there are always going to be people who take their opinion as gospel and ram it down your throat like an television Evangelist in peak rating season - obviously that's unacceptable. And yes, there should be some respect for the opinions of others. But that doesn't automatically mean that anyone who disagrees with you has to look the other way and not volunteer constructive critiscism.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

Sorry Kersten
I see and agree with your point, just getting fed up with some particular people and merely want to make the point that there is room for all and obviously some people dont agree with the direction that the hobby is heading.

No offense meant to the people out there who are offering a polite and opposite opinion to ours


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## cris (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Sorry Kersten
> I see and agree with your point, just getting fed up with some particular people and merely want to make the point that there is room for all and obviously some people dont agree with the direction that the hobby is heading.
> 
> No offense meant to the people out there who are offering a polite and opposite opinion to ours



Im not trying to sound rude, but get over it, you are doing something that is possibly illegal and im sure you would have known that some are strongly against it. You cant expect everyone to just go "oh they look nice, im going to change my opinion now" many never will. You would have more luck getting John Howard to vote for Kevin Rudd at the last election(keeping in mind that you would have to travel back in time to do that).

Anyway they are nice looking snakes


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

sweet as, glad you like the animals


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## WombleHerp (Jan 28, 2009)

i think they look really nice, in fact im rather jealous, i would love to own something looking like that! and im glad someone is taking the step of changing the way we view the herp hobby in Australia. i think what you are doing is a great thing keep it up

Nat


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

No offence intended qldmorelias but most of those examples once again are wild type animals,
melainistic,
A-melainistic,
reduced pattern etc, are all wild type animals. Infact it makes me laugh when i see alot of pics of what some people call reduced pattern animals thinking they are something special, when infact they are just another common form found in the wild. Not reduced pattern at all just another common form of a highly variable python species. ie carpets and jungles.

In 5-10 years i still wont be interested in keeping or breeding hybrids no matter what they look like.
Why bother when even most of your examples of where you think the hobby is heading are all wild type animals.


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## bigi (Jan 28, 2009)

well i have been following this thread with interest and antisipation, i have examined all the pros and cos and i for one am undecided and sitting on the fence for the time being. Unfortunately unless the law is changed to adequately describe what it wants in this country, nothing will change and i see it not as a possibility but a fact that this type of breeding will continue and become more prevalent. Like it or lump it we all are part of the hobby, and this is what brings us together on this site. I would like to thank Qld Morelias for having the courage to bring this forward. I look forward to more pics and updates and of course the normal debate.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Jan 28, 2009)

so what is a jag?


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## dpeica (Jan 28, 2009)

Hybrids or not...they're still pythons. You people make me sick.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 28, 2009)

Seems like a lot of effort for some Kingy food, hey DP?


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 28, 2009)

ryanharvey1993 said:


> so what is a jag?



A co-dominant morph that creates a highly reduced pattern very similar to the ones posted in here. If you breed jag - jag you get half a clutch of jags and half as leucistics. so far no leucistics have survived long.


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## ihaveherps (Jan 28, 2009)

ryanharvey1993 said:


> so what is a jag?



the thing in the first pic of the thread.


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## jasonryles810 (Jan 28, 2009)

dpeica said:


> Hybrids or not...they're still pythons. You people make me sick.




hahah one of the best quotes from this entire thread!!! hahah yeh dpeica!!!!


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## Jason2 (Jan 28, 2009)

Great looking pythons, especially the black jungle.


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## hardcorey007 (Jan 28, 2009)

Since when has the law making it illegal in QLD made it illegal in all the other States and Territories? To the best of my knowledge it is not illegal in all States and Territories. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but please quote references if you do.


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## Renagade (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Thats how long it will take for most breeders to realise this is where the hobby is going.
> eg designer greens
> Carpondros
> Reduced Pattern
> ...


 
i tend to agree that this is the direction that this hobby is going. but dpont forget it also means cheaper animals on other fronts.
WHOOOoooo... scaleless.


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## Southside Morelia (Jan 28, 2009)

Renagade said:


> i tend to agree that this is the direction that this hobby is going. but dpont forget it also means cheaper animals on other fronts.
> WHOOOoooo... scaleless.


LMAO nice Renegade......:lol::lol: I do like them....BUT
But lets not forget also the people in the hobby that have done the hard yards of years of selective breeding to get pure RP animals as well, we all know who they are...well done guys!
Fence sitting NO, I like both and there's room for both in the hobby...JMO


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## draqonfly (Jan 28, 2009)

Western python said:


> I think they are fantastic
> None of these Pythons will ever be released back into the (wild ) So whats the harm.




Thats what i was thinking too !

Captive bred , captive environment, in our homes.

Gorgeous pythons, would love to have one for meself... or two... or 3


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## pigysus (Jan 28, 2009)

As a newbie to aussiepythons, I've not yet kept any reptiles. I've seen quite a few on my block and I may yet "join the club". The discussion on the whole has been interesting and informative. A few purists and a few weirdos but thats to be expected in such a wide ranging forum. I thought the animals spectacular. The future i suspect holds more than breeding live with live and could move into In-vitro fertilisation or even gene modification. There must always be a clean and carefully managed gene pool clear of meddling and I suspect that is what most of the purists are struggling to hold on too. Where


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## pigysus (Jan 28, 2009)

*How far do we go!*

As a newbie to aussiepythons, I've not yet kept any reptiles. I've seen quite a few on my block and I may yet "join the club". The discussion on the whole has been interesting and informative. A few purists and a few weirdos but thats to be expected in such a wide ranging forum. I thought the animals spectacular. The future i suspect holds more than breeding live with live and could move into In-vitro fertilisation or even gene modification. There must always be a clean and carefully managed gene pool clear of meddling and I suspect that is what most of the purists are struggling to hold on too. Once hybridisation is accepted, then there is no line to be drawn so who knows what may be there in the future.


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## The Devil (Jan 28, 2009)

I was right, been looking at my photo file and the pics in the first post were taken by myself before Xmas.
Thought they looked familiar, must have emailed them to the owner.

The second lot of pics has the Sydney Telegraph in one photo so I guess they are now down in NSW somewhere.


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## gozz (Jan 28, 2009)

Western python said:


> I think they are fantastic
> None of these Pythons will ever be released back into the (wild ) So whats the harm.


 You only need to see what happens when people can buy very cheap snakes ,look at Florida usa to see that people do release them
when some people get sick of them, and can 
cause alot of probs


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## ihaveherps (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Thats how long it will take for most breeders to realise this is where the hobby is going.
> eg designer greens
> Carpondros
> Reduced Pattern
> ...



Renegade, it seems that most fail to realise that most of the above exist already, and apart from the carpondro have all been achieved with integrity, by breeding from within the same population.

Reduced patterns are common within most locales, there is nothing to be achieved by hybridisation that cant be achieved within the subspecies.

Melanistics, already in darwins, what is to be achieved by producing a hybrid melanistic, its still a black snake, just a hybrid sibling wont have locale data or even sit within a sub-species.

Amelanistics, already exist, hybridising will only prove to be arguemental points if one pops up within another species/sub-species, robbing someone of their hard work, due to others taking short-cuts.

Scaleless, again already exists in adders, again amazingly without hybridisation.

see where its heading, sure morphs are the way of the future, of course they will be, though the hybridisers are the cheats, taking short cuts, applying traits from one subspecies to another, rather than putting the work into refining a line. Hybridisers may achieve the goal they chase in "x" percentage of their clutches, the rest fall into the worthless scrap pile, without even locale to fall back on as a selling point. The people with conviction who work with locale animals can never affect the hybridisers, can the hybridisers say that the progeny will never affect the purists?

This thread has done nothing to promote the hybrids, jungles like the 3rd pick in the first post has been equalled if not exceeded but those putting the hard yards in to develop their pure lines, the second and fourth pics (again in the first post) of reduced carpets are similar to those produced by Jungleland and ilk, again with integrity and working within a locale/sub-species.... which leaves the first pic, have another look peoples, Jag. This all started as a way to push jags past the masses, nothing to do with hybrids, yet the bait was taken by most.... No wonder theres a new username to sell the story.


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## ihaveherps (Jan 28, 2009)

The Devil said:


> I was right, been looking at my photo file and the pics in the first post were taken by myself before Xmas.
> Thought they looked familiar, must have emailed them to the owner.
> 
> The second lot of pics has the Sydney Telegraph in one photo so I guess they are now down in NSW somewhere.



Not suprising Devil.... smelled fishy the whole time to me.


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## Lewy (Jan 28, 2009)

Yippee I can just see it now in 30 years no purebreds left in captivity

People keep saying what's the problem they are not getting released in to the wild. This is not the problem its that people are dishonest and will sell them for what ever will fetch them the bigger $$$ eventual no one will know what the hell they are buying 

I think that SOME hybrids look good but eventually you just wont no whats pure and whats not 
Why should we go down the same path as the yanks???????

Lewy


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## Pythonking (Jan 28, 2009)

draqonfly said:


> Thats what i was thinking too !
> 
> Captive bred , captive environment, in our homes.


 
just a couple threads this month on escape artists,

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/lost-snake-were-could-he-be-100490

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/lost-my-spotted-101027

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/lost-diamond-101345

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help/prision-break-100301


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## scorps (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok everyone I got it, Its snake addict hes back, hes just stealing pics off some American site to annoy all us


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## Lewy (Jan 28, 2009)

Pythonking said:


> just a couple threads this month on escape artists,
> 
> http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes/lost-snake-were-could-he-be-100490
> 
> ...


 
Good call people for get that **** happens I to have had a snake escape and never found


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

Lewy said:


> Yippee I can just see it now in 30 years no purebreds left in captivity
> 
> People keep saying what's the problem they are not getting released in to the wild. This is not the problem its that people are dishonest and will sell them for what ever will fetch them the bigger $$$ eventual no one will know what the hell they are buying
> 
> ...


 Instead of just knocking the crap out of the ones that crossbreed, why not just accept the fact that they (crossbreeders) are out there, and doing what they want, and then perhaps they would come out of the closet (so to speak), knowing they arent going to get flamed every time the subject comes up. You will soon get to know who they are, and then simple, you dont buy their snakes, as you would know you wont be guarenteed on what you would be getting. You already know the breeders that breed 100% locale, so you keep buying from them, it's pretty simple.
I guess the problem is there are to many here that just have to have their say, and ride thier high horse.


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## Jungleland (Jan 28, 2009)

The Devil said:


> I was right, been looking at my photo file and the pics in the first post were taken by myself before Xmas.
> Thought they looked familiar, must have emailed them to the owner.
> 
> The second lot of pics has the Sydney Telegraph in one photo so I guess they are now down in NSW somewhere.


 
Hey Nev, where were them animals again before they got sent to NSW?JK

But you can tell us if you feel like it


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## scorps (Jan 28, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> Instead of just knocking the crap out of the ones that crossbreed, why not just accept the fact that they (crossbreeders) are out there, and doing what they want, and then perhaps they would come out of the closet (so to speak), knowing they arent going to get flamed every time the subject comes up. You will soon get to know who they are, and then simple, you dont buy their snakes, as you would know you wont be guarenteed on what you would be getting. You already know the breeders that breed 100% locale, so you keep buying from them, it's pretty simple.
> I guess the problem is there are to many here that just have to have their say, and ride thier high horse.




Just accept that thier going to do it???????

Hey there's drug dealers and rapist out their, oh and pedofiles but hey thier still going to do it, lets just make it legal,

gosh arrogance.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

phatt01,- Well if it has to be accepted as you say, and qldmorelias is as above board as he claims and has received so many pms of interest for his animals rather than being flamed. Why has he not identified himself.?
A number of people in this thread have asked who he is and to identify himself and he just ignores their posts.
Could it be that he wont come out of the closet because hes scared that the authorities may pay him a visit.??
Food for thought ah.!!


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## Kersten (Jan 28, 2009)

scorps said:


> Just accept that thier going to do it???????
> 
> Hey there's drug dealers and rapist out their, oh and pedofiles but hey thier still going to do it, lets just make it legal,
> 
> gosh arrogance.



OT I know but....I happen to know that the "it happened just accept it" line is used by paedophiles on occasion. Scary. Scorps' point is a good point though in relation to this topic. Sitting back and blindly accepting things just because they've happened is circular logic at best.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

why dont i just post my address, my alarm codes, my guard dog names and commands, how about my credit card details, Im not that concerned about the epa as the animals were discussing are not on my license, nor are thet at my house


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

Nah just a name will do. Or dont you have the balls.

No offence intended.


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

scorps said:


> Just accept that thier going to do it???????
> 
> Hey there's drug dealers and rapist out their, oh and pedofiles but hey thier still going to do it, lets just make it legal,
> 
> gosh arrogance.


 Two totally different things Scorps. 
The more they (crossbreeders) get bagged the more they breed them underground, and then GUESS WHAT, you get what what evryone is whingeing about, NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE BUYING!!!!!!!!!!!!
What I am saying is if we knew who the ones are that breed them, which unfortunatly needs to be done by accepting (not agreeing) what they are doing, then you will know who they are, and then the choice is easy on where to buy from.


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## Pythonking (Jan 28, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> Two totally different things Scorps.
> The more they (crossbreeders) get bagged the more they breed them underground, and then GUESS WHAT, you get what what evryone is whingeing about, NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE BUYING!!!!!!!!!!!!
> What I am saying is if we knew who the ones are that breed them, which unfortunatly needs to be done by accepting (not agreeing) what they are doing, then you will know who they are, and then the choice is easy on where to buy from.


 
the legal issue plays apart here phatt, I agree on the theory but pratically I don't think it would work, Myself I only buy from reputable breeders or people I presume are


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## scorps (Jan 28, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> Two totally different things Scorps.
> The more they (crossbreeders) get bagged the more they breed them underground, and then GUESS WHAT, you get what what evryone is whingeing about, NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE BUYING!!!!!!!!!!!!
> What I am saying is if we knew who the ones are that breed them, which unfortunatly needs to be done by accepting (not agreeing) what they are doing, then you will know who they are, and then the choice is easy on where to buy from.



No its not different, I no the severance of the two is different but my point is their both illegal.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

Rob 
as i have said before i am not pretending to be someone im not
I doubt you or most people on this site would know who i am, this has been the case in the past for my own personal prefernce, and for now thats how its going to stay. I think I have shown enough of my balls for now. Why do you want to know who i am so much,


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

No comment qldmorelias.?

If they are not on your licence or at your house there shouldnt be a problem then.!

I noticed that you said that your not " that concerned " about a vist from the EPA, which leads one to belive that you do have some concern.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

Beat me to it.

I just like to know whos out there tainting the hobby.

You seem to know who i am, so whats the big problem.


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## scorps (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Rob
> as i have said before i am not pretending to be someone im not
> I doubt you or most people on this site would know who i am, this has been the case in the past for my own personal prefernce, and for now thats how its going to stay. I think I have shown enough of my balls for now. Why do you want to know who i am so much,



Because theirs also of accusation's going around, if your so proud of your so called "projects" why no claim them and say who you are.


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## Australis (Jan 28, 2009)

phatt01,
Are the hybrid breeders really so fragile, that a mere "internet flaming" forces them to lose all integrity?


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## solar 17 (Jan 28, 2009)

*who's who*

lt beats me why everybody doesn't run their own race.....cheers solar 17 [Baden]


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## Mudimans (Jan 28, 2009)

Rule 3
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...ial-aps-site-rules-90496?highlight=unofficial


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> phatt01,- Well if it has to be accepted as you say, and qldmorelias is as above board as he claims and has received so many pms of interest for his animals rather than being flamed. Why has he not identified himself.?
> A number of people in this thread have asked who he is and to identify himself and he just ignores their posts.
> Could it be that he wont come out of the closet because hes scared that the authorities may pay him a visit.??
> Food for thought ah.!!


I am generalising the whole hybrid thing, not just qldmorleias, and that is what I am saying, he/she, like so many otheres that crossbreed wont come out untill they stop getting flamed. I cant answer why he/she wont reveal thier name.
Like I say if we knew who they were, then it is our choice on who we buy from, then there would no longer be this BS that keeps coming up when the word Hybrid is mentioned. Let them do what they are doing in peace, and in the open, and then if someone wants to buy a Hybrid they can, and if the authorities want to step in they can to, as it would all be above ground. 
Do you really think it is going to be stopped?
I am not for breeding hybrids, and yes I said I would own one of his ones, but that is as far as it would go. There are other solutions, and one is imo to let them come out of the closet, and then they are identified. 
The Pure breeders out weigh the cross breeders, and the buyers of only Pure lines, outweigh the people buying Cross Breeds, then I guess the maths is easy. The cross breeders wont last, cause only a minority would buy thier snakes.
Or is it that a lot of us just wont admit that we like Crosses, and would purchase them? Ahh that then is a problem for the pure breeders!!!!!!!!!
Food for thought hey?


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## mungus (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Rob
> as i have said before i am not pretending to be someone im not
> I doubt you or most people on this site would know who i am, this has been the case in the past for my own personal prefernce, and for now thats how its going to stay. I think I have shown enough of my balls for now. Why do you want to know who i am so much,



He wants to know who you are so he can bust your balls some more...............:lol::lol:
There is no doubt that the animals in those photo's look awesome.
But, the fact is that they are hybrid's - full stop !!
Now, the day hybrid's become excepted in everyone's collection, is the day that the standard looking reptile will be left behind and won't comand the $ they do today.
But in 30 odd years they might be worth a small fortune, as pure ones will be hard to find.
Some big name breeder's are aware of this imo and could loose big time.
We already have seen the $$ fall on GTP & RSP, what's next ??
Imagine if those hybrid's took off and everyone could legally have a designer snake...........:shock:
Just Imagine..........


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## megrim (Jan 28, 2009)

scorps said:


> my point is their both illegal.



I know it's illegal in QLD, but what of other states and territories?, I've been scouring the DSE website and I can't find a damned thing about breeding of any kind. I even hit the DPI ->http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nreni...56DC6000F7125E7F8E4DBA5A6FDD04A256DEA0027A820

and there's not even anything in the 'Code of Practice'. I imagine there is at least _some_ sort of legislature for breeding reptiles in VIC, I just can't for the life of me find it :cry:

If someone could point me in the right direction I would be much obliged.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 28, 2009)

no loss of integrity, just like my privacy, 

anyway this isnt what this thread is about, all we wanted to achieve was to let people know there are other hybrid and designer snake breeders out there, and people dont need to be afraid to share pics of their projects and even talk about hybrids.

The perception of hybrids and designer snakes is becoming far more widely accepted, thats what we wanted and thats what we are achieving. 

Thanks again to everyone who pm'd and posted, either in favour or against


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## melgalea (Jan 28, 2009)

i am amazed this thread is still going and it took me a bloody long time (and 2 beers) to read it. 
Hybrids - hmmm.... they are the reason i only buy from a couple of close people who i trust.
each to there own..... they look ok. but it would be a cold day in hell before i brought a hybrid. we have many fantastic pure pythons to choose from so why stuff around with it.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

No problem for me, a large percentage of my animals are ordered well before they hatch every year. 

Your right they should come out of the closet especially if they have so much interest as they claim, thats quite the opposte of beign flamed i would think.
But they dont, gee i wonder why.!!


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## Khagan (Jan 28, 2009)

mungus said:


> Now, the day hybrid's become excepted in everyone's collection, is the day that the standard looking reptile will be left behind and won't comand the $ they do today.



That's something i could live with  cheap snakes for me yay.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 28, 2009)

mungus,- I think the opposite will happen. Once hybrids muddy the water too much, pure wild type animals will be worth a fortune.


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

Australis said:


> phatt01,
> Are the hybrid breeders really so fragile, that a mere "internet flaming" forces them to lose all integrity?


 I never mentioned integrity, I am saying that they wont come out openly, cause they are sick of being flamed every time the word is mentioned.


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## Lewy (Jan 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> mungus,- I think the opposite will happen. Once hybrids muddy the water too much, pure wild type animals will be worth a fortune.


 

Total agree with you there TrueBlue

Lewy


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## melgalea (Jan 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> mungus,- I think the opposite will happen. Once hybrids muddy the water too much, pure wild type animals will be worth a fortune.



i agree 100% with u Rob. 
Mel


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## scorps (Jan 28, 2009)

What I love the most about this thread is how QldMorelias keeps trying to act all professional and act like he knows what he's talking about then TrueBlue keeps running him down its good. 

Do you no what would put a huge awesome twist to this thread, if trueblue and qldmorelias where the same people  hahahah joking trueblue I no you wouldnt stoop that lol.


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## Ishah (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> no loss of integrity, just like my privacy,
> 
> anyway this isnt what this thread is about, all we wanted to achieve was to let people know there are other hybrid and designer snake breeders out there, and people dont need to be afraid to share pics of their projects and even talk about hybrids.
> 
> ...


 

Quick question... What exactly do you put them down as on your license? Do you put them down as what they most look like/resemble, or what the dam or sire is, or what? Genuinely curious, and seeings as you're coming out in the open an all...

And what do the EPA say about it when you hand in your MA's?


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## Bushfire (Jan 28, 2009)

As someone said a few pages ago, just because its a rule in QLD that doesn't mean its illegal in all the other states. 

Phatt01, I total agree with what you said. The hard line purist will always be able to get prue animals from known locale breeders, if your that way in kind you would of done your research and know where to source your animals. The thing is that purist feel threatened that hybrid breeders will steal some of the buying market from them, because simply patterns and colours is what is going to attract the buyers. 

An escaped hybrid will do no more damage to the ecosystem than any other escapee that is released that wasn't from that location ie. Brissy carpets in Sydney, EWD in Canberra etc etc. If you wanted to stop this completely then ask for a law which states you aren't allowed to keep anything that didn't naturally (including the specific locale) to where you live.

Why should QLDMorelias have to identify himself in an public forum? No one else has such demands placed on them when they breed uncommon reptiles. I too would ignore such requests too.


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

Ishah said:


> Quick question... What exactly do you put them down as on your license? Do you put them down as what they most look like/resemble, or what the dam or sire is, or what? Genuinely curious, and seeings as you're coming out in the open an all...
> 
> And what do the EPA say about it when you hand in your MA's?


 The EPA wont say anything as it is legal to buy Hybrids in QLD, just illegal to breed them.
I would guess you would put them down as one of the parents, prob the Dame?


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## bubbaloush (Jan 28, 2009)

you guys should see our olive cross maccies they are cool


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

Bushfire said:


> As someone said a few pages ago, just because its a rule in QLD that doesn't mean its illegal in all the other states.
> 
> Phatt01, I total agree with what you said. The hard line purist will always be able to get prue animals from known locale breeders, if your that way in kind you would of done your research and know where to source your animals. The thing is that purist feel threatened that hybrid breeders will steal some of the buying market from them, because simply patterns and colours is what is going to attract the buyers.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Lewy (Jan 28, 2009)

bubbaloush said:


> you guys should see our olive cross maccies they are cool


 

Hheheheheehehe:lol:


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## Ishah (Jan 28, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> The EPA wont say anything as it is legal to buy Hybrids in QLD, just illegal to breed them.
> I would guess you would put them down as one of the parents, prob the Dame?


 

Ok, well then what do they say to the breeders of the hybrids then? As you aren't allowed to legally breed them... And they don't just pop out of thin air!...Also, both the seller and the buyer hand in MA's, and the EPA would know where every animal that pops up comes from...i.e. bred or bought etc... So would they not know who bred them anyways? I spose if they put them all down as the dame, then the EPA wouldnt even know they are crosses...:?


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## The Devil (Jan 28, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Not suprising Devil.... smelled fishy the whole time to me.



Smells fishy?????? please explain that to me.....I was at a friends place and was asked to take some pics.
I didn't and still don't see a problem with doing that........


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## ihaveherps (Jan 28, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> I think I have shown enough of my balls for now,



Ive seen bigger balls on a gelding..... so far you have been caught using someones elses pics, which are supposedly of someone else animals, and refused to own your posts unless under alias.... balls? Your a eunuch!


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

Australian law protects Transvestites, They're crosses are'nt they?


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## Australis (Jan 28, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> I never mentioned integrity, I am saying that they wont come out openly, cause they are sick of being flamed every time the word is mentioned.



I know you didn't mention integrity, that was me.

I just don't think much of this "fear of flaming" excuse being thrown around
especially when used to justify why people aren't being open about their
hybrid breeding "projects".

If your going to go against the grain (in this case producing hybrids).. at least
have some backbone... and not quiver in fear of a little internet flaming, geez.

Ive lost count of the amount of times a clutch hybrids/crosses get a name change
to something more "pure" ... in a blatant effort to sell the animals.. 
Kinda goes against the claims theres some huge market for the mongrel things.


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## ihaveherps (Jan 28, 2009)

The Devil said:


> Smells fishy?????? please explain that to me.....I was at a friends place and was asked to take some pics.
> I didn't and still don't see a problem with doing that........



sorry wasnt casting aspersions about you in any way.... though re-reading it, it may have come across as such.


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## The Devil (Jan 28, 2009)

Jungleland said:


> Hey Nev, where were them animals again before they got sent to NSW?JK
> 
> But you can tell us if you feel like it



I was at a friends place before Xmas, he was going to see one of his mates in Nth NSW.
It was a nice morning so I went for a drive with him. Like most times I had my camera with me and was asked to take some pics.
I emailed them to my friend and he passed them on.

I don't know who QldMor is or where the snakes are now.


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## The Devil (Jan 28, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> sorry wasnt casting aspersions about you in any way.... though re-reading it, it may have come across as such.



Apology accepted, thank you..........I don't think they are using someone else pics, I had a good camera with me and was asked to take the pics.
At no time did I or have I claimed ownership of the pics and once I emailed them I didn't give a rats where they ended up.


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## Kersten (Jan 28, 2009)

Like sands through the hourglass....


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## phatt01 (Jan 28, 2009)

Australis said:


> I know you didn't mention integrity, that was me.
> 
> I just don't think much of this "fear of flaming" excuse being thrown around
> especially when used to justify why people aren't being open about their
> ...


 
Like you say Australis "kinda goes against the claims......", then if that is the case there is nothing to worry about, they are a dying breed then. They will naturally die, then we wont have all this BS.
There are things that I dont talk about at work, cause you know you will get flamed for, it is not always about not having the balls or backbone, ya just get sick of a no win arguement.


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## horto28 (Jan 28, 2009)

*true*

yep. i was just thinkin that, i cant see the problem with it, if they look good whats the problem.


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## mungus (Jan 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> mungus,- I think the opposite will happen. Once hybrids muddy the water too much, pure wild type animals will be worth a fortune.



Rob, yep, I agree and did state that.
It would take quite a few years, but it would happen.


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## Jason2 (Jan 28, 2009)

can't understand what the big deal is about who these people are. i wouldn't know who 99% of the members are, but then again i don't use the site all that often.

then again if they want to give out their bank and credit card details my pm bit is working.


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## Parko (Jan 28, 2009)

They dont look that good really.


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## Parko (Jan 28, 2009)

And even hybrid **** stinks(an enlightening afterthought to my previous thought)


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## cris (Jan 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> mungus,- I think the opposite will happen. Once hybrids muddy the water too much, pure wild type animals will be worth a fortune.



This is pretty much why i dont have a problem with hybrids, there are plenty of ppl around interested in pure wild type animals so all that needs to be created is a clear division between the 2. IMO the only way that can happen is by allowing hybrids above board so we can see who is who and what they breed.


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## Vixen (Jan 29, 2009)

cris said:


> This is pretty much why i dont have a problem with hybrids, there are plenty of ppl around interested in pure wild type animals so all that needs to be created is a clear division between the 2. IMO the only way that can happen is by allowing hybrids above board so we can see who is who and what they breed.


 
That is the problem though. It is still illegal in some states and until that law changes (which I don't see happening any time soon) do you really think hybrid breeders are going to advertising them for sale for what they really are? No.


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## Ishah (Jan 29, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> That is the problem though. It is still illegal in some states and until that law changes (which I don't see happening any time soon) do you really think hybrid breeders are going to advertising them for sale for what they really are? No.


 
Exactly, and also (to add to that), even if the breeder sells it as a hybrid aka what it is, who is to say that the buyer is going to sell it as the same thing? or the next buyer or the next? Ever heard of chinese whispers? Not to mention the fact that newbies would buy them not knowing or caring what the difference is, and then BAM! The problem arises...amongst many other problems... Just not worth it IMO...

I would also love for QLDMorelias to answer my previous question/s about what they have put their hybrids down as on paper.... I'm genuinely intrigued as to how they got away with such considering it is illegal in QLD....


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## QldMorelias (Jan 29, 2009)

A member sent this photo to me.


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## Australis (Jan 29, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> A member sent this photo to me.



Oouch..waste of a good jungle.


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## Kersten (Jan 29, 2009)

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Anyone for Sth African cuisine?


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## Chrisreptile (Jan 29, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> A member sent this photo to me.



I can imagine that this isn't the only species an Albino Darwin has been put over either


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## =bECS= (Jan 29, 2009)

Chrisreptile said:


> I can imagine that this isn't the only species an Albino Darwin has been put over either



Nor the last unfortunately!


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## Vixen (Jan 29, 2009)

Thats another thing I don't get, why do people feel the need to try and create hybrid albinos when they are going to pretty much look the same as a pure darwin anyway.  I guess they just like to ruin things. 

All I can say is beware in a few years at the spontaneous 'pure' albino jungles etc.


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## =bECS= (Jan 29, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> Thats another thing I don't get, why do people feel the need to try and create hybrid albinos when they are going to pretty much look the same as a pure darwin anyway.  I guess they just like to ruin things.
> 
> All I can say is beware in a few years at the spontaneous 'pure' albino jungles etc.



And blackheads, but that's another 18 page thread of its own :lol:


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## Ramsayi (Jan 29, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> why dont i just post my address, my alarm codes, my guard dog names and commands, how about my credit card details, Im not that concerned about the epa as the animals were discussing are not on my license, nor are thet at my house



Well I would like to know who you are since you used the sites friends request function on me.an here I was thinking I was special until I noticed how many new friends you have made in a day or two.Spamming for friends...............how novel :lol: 



Chrisreptile said:


> I can imagine that this isn't the only species an Albino Darwin has been put over either


I have never even considered puting albino darwins over anything except other darwins.There are a few of us that are taking the same stance on that score.


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## lasnakess (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm even more confused guys:cry::cry::cry:

Ok, someone has already explained the jag, thanx...but wot was that other one, i forget wot it was called after reading 18 pages, starting with l that has always died?

I know it is illegal to KNOWINGLY breed hybrids, but the mutation part throws me because from wot i remember from biology class, a mutation will occure regardless, an extra A here, double dna strand there. And within humans it seems that pure breeding (in-breeding) results with more frequent mutations. Haemophilias? I know some mutations are genetically passed on but others can happen "out of the blue" downs syndrome, albino children.

I have a 'hypo' coastal python...didn't know that's wot it is called when I got her, nor do i know if she will continue to look hypo when she is old enough to breed.

So my question is, can i or can I not breed her, knowing that she has a genetic code that portrays reduced black?

there is also a debat about locales being hybrids. I dont know what locale my coastal is. I can't asume that she is brisi locale because that's where i live and where the person who breed her comes from (i think). And obviously my diamond python comes from a line that was brought here from NSW, but are diamonds locale specific too? The only way to know for sure that your animal is local specific is to steal it from the wild, which is illegal, and for all you know someone lost a snake that comes from the other side of Australia and has now bred with the wild locales.

sorry for the long speal, I'm just having trouble getting my head around all this, since there are so many ppl with different opinions. Unless everyone can agree wot is acceptable and wot is not, how can hybrid and mutation breeding be stoped?

Oh btw: the pics are ok lookin, nothin better than the already varried colours and patterns that already exist naturally (purely?)


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## Hemiaspis (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey Guys, Thought I'd offer my 2 cents worth. These "designer" pythons (as people are calling them) are the "skid-mark" on Australian Herpetology.
It seems we are destined to go down the same path as the American trade. There are so many examples as to why this is not a good thing. Just look at the Burmese/Ceylon Python situation. These two species were regularly hybridised twenty years ago (all done quite openly, I might add), and now these hybrids are so common and difficult to distinguish, that the true lines are almost non-existant.

Why don't we (as a reptile keeping community) set the standard, and make the focus of the hobby/industry about the animals, not dollars!!!!!

Don't justify breeding these "designer morphs" purely on the existance of others, that's absurd.

I've been involved in the keeping of Australian Reptiles for the last twenty five years, and something I've noticed is that many of the people just in it for the cash, come and go out of the hobby, but their "projects" scar the trade indefinately.


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## krefft (Jan 29, 2009)

cris said:


> This is pretty much why i dont have a problem with hybrids, there are plenty of ppl around interested in pure wild type animals so all that needs to be created is a clear division between the 2. IMO the only way that can happen is by allowing hybrids above board so we can see who is who and what they breed.


 
Well said cris.


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## hardcorey007 (Jan 29, 2009)

Everyone keeps banging on how it is illegal. Yes it appears to be illegal to breed them in QLD. So there is nothing stopping them getting bred else where and getting imported to 'keep' in QLD. So if these specimens were bred interstate and are now being kept in QLD it appears that QLDMorelias (and his partners) have done nothing wrong by the rule. I did say if that was what occured. There are always way around the rules.

As for species codes, here in the NT you can put them down as just Morelia Spilota you don't have to list sub species. They just get listed as a carpet python. Obviously if species rather than subspecies are crossed then it's a different story.

Oh, and I'm just interpreting the rules as I see them. And for the record I haven't crossed anything.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 29, 2009)

scorps,- Im not intentionally running him down just putting up a good dabate. 
I think that ive been very well mannered, as much as possible anyway. The bit about the size of his balls was all i could constructively think of at the time, and as said ment no offence. I just cant understand why someone would post pics of hybrids claiming that they are now accepted and hide behind an avatar name.? 
Maybe because they are jags with a false identity ?, and or scared of a visit from the EPA ?.


Bushfire, No breeders dont feel threatened at all, thats an absurd comment.
Everytime breeders sell animals they know most will be bred in a few years and therefore create more animals for sale. If they were greedy and worried about lost sales they would attempt to sterilise their animals before sale. There are many new people getting into reptiles every year, so the market increases every year.
So why would a few mongrels change anything.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey Rob
First of all Im not here to argue with you

I never said they were accepted, what I said was they are becoming more widely accepted, 

as I said before, this isnt about notoriety, this is about encouraging others to voice their opinion and share their programs. There has been alot of negative talk regarding hybrids on this site in the past, however it seems only to be coming from a number of influential people like yourself (im sure there are many others too). We're not trying to argue with you and the others, we simply want to encourage the people who are pro-hybrid and have been sitting quietly on the sidelines to voice their opinion on the topic without worrying about stepping on other peoples toes.

It seems to be working


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## Aussie Python Lover (Jan 29, 2009)

Well I love hybrids or any other python for that matter great looking snakes qldmorelia


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## -Matt- (Jan 29, 2009)

Like has been said previously...as more and more of these designer snakes move into the market the pure animals are going to get driven out and command more and more money ( just like how wild type corns are few and far between and fetch high dollars in the states). IMO this isnt a good thing as people will be buying the cheaper "_better_" looking animals and this hobby should revolve around the beautiful natural animals that this country of ours produces.
JMO


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## Jason (Jan 29, 2009)

WOW... long thread.

Love the snakes, they are stunning..... but i have always loved jags, good to see they are out in the open a bit more. from what im hearing there are alot getting around at the moment. Same stories as these, they are hybrid, iv been line breeding etc etc and all of a sudden you have jags... miricles.

on a side not keep the pics coming, they are nice animals regardless of their true identities.


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## Jason (Jan 29, 2009)

well theres the reason iv already got my darwins, befor you know it, you wont know whats pure and whats crap! shame when pure albino jungles start getting around now. who'd believe them with these pics floating around. from what i hear these jungle x albinos are going to be advertised for more then pure darwin hets????


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## wackotecho (Jan 29, 2009)

Pure and Hybrid both have there place these days.

Breeders who have pure bred will be happy because their snakes will be worth more than those who breed hybrids. The breeders with hybrids will need new genes too. 

Dogs are a good example - Pure bred with papers is worth a hell of a lot more than one without papers.


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## carpetmuncher (Jan 29, 2009)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> These look like Proserpines x jungles to me. That right? Or are they actual Jags.


 

i don't know what "hybrid" they are supposed to be, _but,_ the head patterns, the yellow body colour developing, _mmmmmmmm,_ i think it may be an introduction to some FOB's. i wonder why his 'mate' let him put up just those pics and none of the parents. call me sceptic, but if it looks like a duck...

well at least someone is trying to legitimise their hot stuff, *my mate said.*


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## Ships (Jan 29, 2009)

Abomination!


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## caustichumor (Jan 29, 2009)

There is no doubting that people crossing their sub-species will become a lot more prevelant in coming years, However since the laws in some states outright ban this hybridizing, some breeders will have to try to garner a large enough following to try and have the laws revised. 
There will no doubt be a surge of unusual looking animals come onto the market in future years as new breeders try their hand at breeding their own hybrids, "expecting to get a similar looking result to the animals in this thread", when they do not end up looking anywhere near as interesting what will they be sold as?


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## Kyro (Jan 29, 2009)

But thats the problem caustic they don't need to have the laws revised because It's quite easy to get around the laws atm, people can breed the hybrids in a "legal"state then move them. Until all states have the same regulations people will find ways around the red tape.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 29, 2009)

qldmorelia, same here, im not arguing with you just pointing out some facts that youve got wrong, ie rp, melainistic, a-melainistic, platinum macs, striped, hypo etc etc that are all naturally occouring wild type animals not just captively produced. In fact as said, better examples can be found in the wild than from most,(if not all), captive breedings. Oh and a good debate, love a good debate its good for the soul.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why there is negative talk about hybrids??. It can and will damage the hobby to some extent, its that simple and you cannot deny that. Pure animals cant thou.!!

As for me being influential, i beg to differ and donot belive this to be true for one minute. I dont influence people at all, everyone can make up their own mind with out me. I have friends that have produced hybrids, i dont agree with it and have told them so, but it makes no difference to them what i think.

Im just a simple beach bum that likes to keep and breed replites.


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## PhilK (Jan 29, 2009)

Bushfire said:


> An escaped hybrid will do no more damage to the ecosystem than any other escapee that is released that wasn't from that location


Very true.. If you ignore that whole hybrid vigour thing.

This has been an awesome thread to read and I am more replying to subscribe to it and keep track of it than for any other reason (as I don't have much to add I guess)..
The only thing I can think of is that regardless of all hi professionalism and good intentions and honesty, QldMorelias doesn't seem to understand that what his 'mates' are doing is illegal.. You aren't allowed to breed hybrids - FACT.

It is tantamount to me posting a thread on here about how nice my hybrid marijuana bushes are coming along..

EDIT: I am also curious if they are being legitimately bred in Qld (as I assume *QLD*Morelias and his friends are doing) how they are being recorded on their papers, seeing as doing so is illegal here? Don't thin QLDMorelias has answered that..


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## snakehunter (Jan 29, 2009)

Jason said:


> well theres the reason iv already got my darwins, befor you know it, you wont know whats pure and whats crap! shame when pure albino jungles start getting around now. who'd believe them with these pics floating around. from what i hear these jungle x albinos are going to be advertised for more then pure darwin hets????



There is a het vic/darwin advertised on pales for scales. Real shame people feel the need to ruin a good albino darwin line


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## TrueBlue (Jan 29, 2009)

In a few years time "all" the albino darwins will have a cloud of dought over them because of a few silly fools.
Thats one of the reasons ive never been interested in them in the first place, that and ive never seen a darwin that i like the look of anyway. Had albino darwins given to me to breed for someone and after a few months just lost interest in them. and got rid of them. Darwins are boring snakes no matter what they look like.


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## smeejason (Jan 29, 2009)

my 2 cents(only new so converts to 1/4 cents) is that if the EPA decide to act they it will just make the lives everyone doing the right thing harder. The people doing the crossing will not get extra scutiny as they wil be not registered but all others will. And with extra policing comes extra costs so we will be the ones paying. 
Just another americanism seeping into us that we have to have designer snakes. why not just have what come naturally and as Rob stated that is pretty varied.
Ask them if they will cross them with a BHP 
then you will just get one very full BHP and all is fixed :lol::lol:


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## pythons73 (Jan 29, 2009)

I cant believe this has gone on and on,Imo the pure snakes are Heaps nicer than any Hybrid,i hope the time never comes when all the pure snakes are a rarity,and produce a higher price.There is no need to cross breed any reptile,we have so many nice snakes as it is.Why would we want to end up like America crossing this with that.Im going to dissagree with you Rob with one thing,Darwins are Nice,thats why i own a couple...Cheers every1....Have a nice day....


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## Ramsayi (Jan 29, 2009)

To everyone that thinks it is fine because there will always be breeders keeping things pure.What if every single breeder decided to mix all Morelia together?What would you then think if all you could purchase was a muddy mixture of all the different Morelia we currently enjoy now?


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## PhilK (Jan 29, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> To everyone that thinks it is fine because there will always be breeders keeping things pure.What if every single breeder decided to mix all Morelia together?What would you then think if all you could purchase was a muddy mixture of all the different Morelia we currently enjoy now?


..If there are always breeders who like purity that will never happen, so it is an irrelevant question.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 29, 2009)

PhilK said:


> ..If there are always breeders who like purity that will never happen, so it is an irrelevant question.



I suppose just like it will never happen that the hybridisers will never misrepresent whats in their lines and everyone who purchases and breeds these things will continue to do the same..

Its not irrelevant.If people are saying its ok to not take any responsibilty for their actions because other will always continue to do the right thing.Its a total cop out.


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## QldMorelias (Jan 29, 2009)

who said they were in QLD, the animals are not in my posession, they belong to a friend on the central coast, NSW. I merely posted the pics and started the thread to spark interest



PhilK said:


> Very true.. If you ignore that whole hybrid vigour thing.
> 
> This has been an awesome thread to read and I am more replying to subscribe to it and keep track of it than for any other reason (as I don't have much to add I guess)..
> The only thing I can think of is that regardless of all hi professionalism and good intentions and honesty, QldMorelias doesn't seem to understand that what his 'mates' are doing is illegal.. You aren't allowed to breed hybrids - FACT.
> ...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 29, 2009)

Expensive jags in expensive caging. Vision brand caging. Looks like Jungle jag, Irian Jaya jag and not too sure what the first one is. Could of course just be a normal coastal jag. But the reduced head pattern is a definite indication that these snakes are jag. The colours could also not be a true indication of the real colour as we know how hard it is to take photos of snakes. They are probably more spectacular in real life. Nevertheless beautiful snakes. This should spice up the reptile hobby in Australia. Some people drive Holdens, some drive Mercedes Benz. We all have our taste in what we like. I am so sick of hearing how hard the locality breeders are done by? Thats all you here, how these guys are taking away the achievements of some of the long time line breeders. People will buy those snakes because they are pretty, not because they want to make a point. You dont buy something if you dont like it. Lets all move on and get over it!


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## =bECS= (Jan 29, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> I suppose just like it will never happen that the hybridisers will never misrepresent whats in their lines and everyone who purchases and breeds these things will continue to do the same..
> 
> Its not irrelevant. If people are saying its ok to not take any responsibilty for their actions because other will always continue to do the right thing.Its a total cop out.



Exactly!!
Like others have said, designer snakes might become a popular fad, but pure in the end will always end up costing higher $$
Alot of American breeders would kill to have the pure lines we have.

So, whos to say that a breeder wont knowingly creates hybrids but they look exactly like one of the parents, so they sell them as 'pure' to get the extra cash.

Meanwhile, an up and coming breeder who honestly brought their snakes from known pure lines, would cast a doubt in buyers mind and have more trouble moving their hatchies on, simply because they are unknown.

How can you prove that a snake is from the lines you claim it is? Im sure breeders who move alot of stock cant remember every single person who had purchased from them, and how many times do you see snakes for sale claiming to be from ' *insert whatever name* lines'?

Whos to say someone hasn't just added this tag along the way to bump up the price of the animal?

I can see things becoming very messy if hybrids become widely accepted by both authorities and keepers.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 29, 2009)

Kersten,- Yes i think thats exactly who it is. Moreliahunter reincarnated perhaps.????


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## Kris (Jan 29, 2009)

Speaks the english too good though Rob.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Jan 29, 2009)

Interesting read....

Question for the people experienced in taxonomy facts (current standing facts obviously)....I had a conversation with a member of this site today, someone who knows far more about morelia taxonomy than I. His knowledge points to imbricata, bredli and spilota spilota being genetically different to all east coast carpets (we didn't delve into viridis). On that basis breeding a carpet from the Murray falls area with a hypo coastal wouldn't be a hybrid, essentially rather a locale cross? Similar to pairing a Cape York and Brisbane maculosa...? Opinions??

On the Jag subject; I assume everyone that is against 'aussie jags' would not currently or NEVER keep a Green python unless the offspring are the progeny of the few select originally 'legal' lines available? A great majority of the available greens in aus are also crosses, not hybrids but rather across island crosses (essentially the same as the animals posted in this thread).... More opinions???

And I'll beat you to the line Rob, you don't like Gorilla snot.... Bikinis however....:lol:


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## Gecko :) (Jan 29, 2009)

Wow this would have to be an APS record for a Hybrid thread that is still going 20 pages later!!
Seems alot of ppl have changed their tune,.

Keep it pure,. or if you feel you need to breed Hybrids,. be honest


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## tamaree (Jan 29, 2009)

Absolutly gorgious markings and colours ,, id love to know more about them and if your friend will be selling any of them or their offspring ,, thanks ,, tammy


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## dailyskin (Jan 29, 2009)

I adore those ones on page one. I truly would love to have one to display. However, I have always been in love with the mad and insane...

I keep in my wallet the most BEAUTIFUL photo of a kitten born with two faces. It is the most precious little thing. And I adore 2-headed animals, hairless mice, celestial fish... I know it's wrong but I do love them all!


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## TrueBlue (Jan 29, 2009)

Den,
hahaha, Yeah greens just do nothing for me. But bikinis on hot babes, well thats one of gods great creations. No man can deny that.!! lol.

Fortunatly the only geens i own are from legal lines.

In a sence the way taxonomy has it at the moment you friend is correct, but we all know there are different sub-species of this sub-species, (for lack of a better term). East coast carpets have evolved sperately into a number of different forms which are quite distinct from each other one way or another, as we all reconise these forms., ie diamonds, coastals mds, jungles, cape yorks etc.
Im sure one day when dna testing is more refind the science communtiy will have ways to to also reconise them.


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## bigi (Jan 29, 2009)

For those who wanted to know how you would record this in the NSW diary's when selling simular animals, the most likely answer. Direct from the NSW Website on codes

C2825 _[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Morelia spilota [/FONT][/FONT]_Carpet Python (only for "subspecies" not known)


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## chilli (Jan 29, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> who said they were in QLD, the animals are not in my posession, they belong to a friend on the central coast, NSW. I merely posted the pics and started the thread to spark interest



did your friend ask you to join aps and a day later post pics of his/her jags and call them rp crosses. why draw heat to yourself if you've got smuggled animals.

i only wish npws, customs, aqis had some competency to stop the illicit trade in these and greens etc. oh well i guess you know you're safe, but why put up this crap about rp crosses?


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 29, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> Expensive jags in expensive caging. Vision brand caging. Looks like Jungle jag, Irian Jaya jag and not too sure what the first one is. Could of course just be a normal coastal jag. But the reduced head pattern is a definite indication that these snakes are jag.



I dissagree, I've been looking at way too many jag pics lately, these guys look to have too much head pattern for ajag. sure it's highly reduced, but Joel's Prossies are much more reduced then these. Would you say they're jags? 

IMO these are not true jags, of course we can't be 100% sure without owning and breeding them to test genetics but just looking at them I don't see a jag there.


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## Southside Morelia (Jan 29, 2009)

I agree with disasterpiece..Def not as reduced as real "jags"!
Joels are RP prossies aren't they?(correct me if i'm wrong and i'm a massive fan of his line) same as what I have. These are def jungles, gauging by the head pattern...thoughts anyone?
Roger has a pure line of RP jungles which are stunning as well, have some of his and again a massive fan!!! These guys are leading the forefront in OZ "jag" pure breds... Bring it on guys!



disasterpiece7.0 said:


> I dissagree, I've been looking at way too many jag pics lately, these guys look to have too much head pattern for ajag. sure it's highly reduced, but Joel's Prossies are much more reduced then these. Would you say they're jags?
> 
> IMO these are not true jags, of course we can't be 100% sure without owning and breeding them to test genetics but just looking at them I don't see a jag there.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 29, 2009)

Southside Morelia said:


> I agree with disasterpiece..Def not as reduced as real "jags"!
> Joels are RP prossies aren't they?(correct me if i'm wrong and i'm a massive fan of his line) same as what I have. These are def jungles, gauging by the head pattern...thoughts anyone?
> Roger has a pure line of RP jungles which are stunning as well, have some of his and again a massive fan!!! These guys are leading the forefront in OZ "jag" pure breds... Bring it on guys!



They are RP prossies. I've also seen some cape yorks from shane blacks like that are far more reduced then these, and pure jungles more reduced (not sure of the line). What makes these jag like is the pattern style.


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## wizz (Jan 29, 2009)

o no there are Hybrid peple to .........Keep it pure lol .........im a Hybrid my dad is jamaican and my mum is english lol......


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 29, 2009)

wizz said:


> o no there are Hybrid peple to .........Keep it pure lol .........im a Hybrid my dad is jamaican and my mum is english lol......



That's not a hybrid... same species buddy.


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## Kris (Jan 29, 2009)

Now if one of your folks was a donkey wizz.........


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## ihaveherps (Jan 29, 2009)

Disasterpiece and southside.... have a closer look, not all the animals are jags, just the first one. There is more to a jag than just pattern, there is also silver eyes, clear bellies.... if you look at the first pic between the coils the scutes are clean, silver eyes, the head pattern and dark cleft between the nostrils... the other 2 jag-like animals are just reduced patterned. You have to realise that there are hundreds if not thousands of jags across Europe and America, what you see on the international forums are the cream of the crop, and only represent a tiny percentage of whats out there. I highly doubt that these cream of the crop animals would make it to our shores, theres a strong enough market for them where they are, without having to go to all the trouble, the Jags sent through the customs gauntlet will most likely be the lesser quality animals.

Den, please bare with me, was cooked today at work, though I will still give it a shot. Most of us are aware of the new DNA research on the morelias. A key point when considering the validity of the results, boils down to what they define (as a percentage) the amount of genetic difference that would actually constitute a sub-species. From what I understand, there was slight differences between most of the (previously) recognised sub-species, though they deemed it not enough ( again as a percentage ) to sustain the amout of sub-species. One slight hurdle is that with out mapping the genome, there is no way to understand how big an impact these variations, however slight, have an overall impact on the constitution of the particular sub-species. Secondly, how do they determine as a a percentage, the difference required to constitue a sub-species? There is more than likely a pre-concieved formula applied, how that formula was derived is also arguable, seeing most similar studies would have been either human or agriculturally based, Im not too sure the mamillian, plant, or even insect (bees) formulas would hold when applied to such an ancient and largely un-evolved group as reptiles. If you really think about it, as a percentage, there is only somewhere between 3-6% of a difference in the genetic make-up of a human and an ape (maybe less, as I said Im tired), now to me, thats rather small percentage for a considerably large variation. I cannot help but to question that even a 0.2-0.5 % difference to such a primitive, yet near perfectly designed (thus not huge on the evolutionary necessity scale) would not constitute a sub-species.

On the whole, of all the sciences, taxonomy is the least finite.... its more a game of puff and ego. I personally try to keep my animals locale specific, as even as the taxonomy is swapped and changed, the animals from within a population will either get re-classified yet stay pure to the taxonomists, or at worst labelled as an intermediate form (so still pure). It takes the equation out of the taxonomists hands.


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## Nagraj (Jan 29, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> A key point when considering the validity of the results, boils down to what they define (as a percentage) the amount of genetic difference that would actually constitute a sub-species.




I'm not a geneticist by any means but I'm surprised to learn that "percentage" is even considered to be accurate in determining species. I would have thought it would be entirely dependent on specific genes at specific locations in a DNA strand?


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## wizz (Jan 29, 2009)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> That's not a hybrid... same species buddy.


lol you have not seen my dad :lol:


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 29, 2009)

ihaveherps
Brillant post.

Cheers Dave


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm still sceptical. He said the first animal went over a B&W jungle, my B&Ws and a large number of the ones I've seen have silver eyes and are fairly well reduced in pattern. I've seen coastals and atherton jungles with clean bellies. Yes I agree that it's possible that it's a jag given that info, but It's also quite possible for it to not be a jag.

I like the other half of your post though. Well done there.


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## Jason2 (Jan 29, 2009)

the caramel coastals on the southercross site, are they just different coastals or jagish.
with the big stripe ect they look similar to a couple in the first lot of pic posted


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## phatt01 (Jan 29, 2009)

Kris said:


> Now if one of your folks was a donkey wizz.........


Maybe his dad is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## Bono888 (Jan 29, 2009)

They are beautiful looking pythons. My only problem is what ends up happening to all the others that are not so good looking and dont make the cut?


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## draqonfly (Jan 29, 2009)

edit....... better to keep me mouth shut on this one


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## -Matt- (Jan 29, 2009)

Its just a never ending battle and I dont know if theres ever gunna be a winner....

In selling it all comes down to honesty and lets face it the majority of people arent honest.


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## m.punja (Jan 29, 2009)

In a way this is good news for true blue and people like hiself who have fantastic reputations for pure line animals. With pics of programes going around like this and people supporting it it strikes me as a worry and is making me more and more afraid to buy of no-named herpers. I'd hate to spend my money on some mongrol which means people like Rob will become in more high demand. The case of saying, well people will just be honest isn't going to work. Once everyone ends up with hybrids they wont care how badly they taint pure lines and if i'm chasing something pure I doubt they'll admit to owning hybrids and run the risk of not being able to sell their clutches. As some people may know I do own a hybrid and I didn't intentionally buy it and will not at all be breeding it. I have concidered time and time again to sell it but I don't want to be known to be someone who has sold a hybrid so i'll just keep the cross breed in an enclosure and never let it see any other reptile and run the risk of it breeding with other snakes.

For a while now I have been thinking that my I should be much much more selective about who I buy from and that is just getting worse. I'll probably never buy off someone without a good reputation again which isn't that big a deal when I know so many people buying wc stocks and we have the likes of pilbara pythons and reedys reptiles.


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## rockman (Jan 29, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Nah just a name will do. Or dont you have the balls.
> 
> No offence intended.



Tell us what you really think Rob ! .

Cheers


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## wizz (Jan 29, 2009)

sorry .......but the same thing is happening with a lot of vens......i no not on a Morelia thread....


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## cris (Jan 29, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Den, please bare with me, was cooked today at work, though I will still give it a shot. Most of us are aware of the new DNA research on the morelias. A key point when considering the validity of the results, boils down to what they define (as a percentage) the amount of genetic difference that would actually constitute a sub-species. From what I understand, there was slight differences between most of the (previously) recognised sub-species, though they deemed it not enough ( again as a percentage ) to sustain the amout of sub-species. One slight hurdle is that with out mapping the genome, there is no way to understand how big an impact these variations, however slight, have an overall impact on the constitution of the particular sub-species. Secondly, how do they determine as a a percentage, the difference required to constitue a sub-species? There is more than likely a pre-concieved formula applied, how that formula was derived is also arguable, seeing most similar studies would have been either human or agriculturally based, Im not too sure the mamillian, plant, or even insect (bees) formulas would hold when applied to such an ancient and largely un-evolved group as reptiles. If you really think about it, as a percentage, there is only somewhere between 3-6% of a difference in the genetic make-up of a human and an ape (maybe less, as I said Im tired), now to me, thats rather small percentage for a considerably large variation. I cannot help but to question that even a 0.2-0.5 % difference to such a primitive, yet near perfectly designed (thus not huge on the evolutionary necessity scale) would not constitute a sub-species.
> 
> On the whole, of all the sciences, taxonomy is the least finite.... its more a game of puff and ego. I personally try to keep my animals locale specific, as even as the taxonomy is swapped and changed, the animals from within a population will either get re-classified yet stay pure to the taxonomists, or at worst labelled as an intermediate form (so still pure). It takes the equation out of the taxonomists hands.



This is exactly why mixed locality hybrids are pretty much the same as intraspecific hybrids. To work out what should be enough differance you would need to look at many factors and also get enough ppl to agree on what a subspecies actually is. The amount of maths and genetics that would need to be involved in working out what is and isnt a real subspecies would be quite daunting i would imagine. I cant see taxonomy becoming anything close to being solid in the next 10 years.


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## Jungle_Freak (Jan 30, 2009)

I think the solution to this kind of anarchy would be to have 2 different licensing systems.

License Type 1. 
one for wildlife being kept as locality type .ie for scientific purpose to help protect our current bloodlines .

License Type 2 .
For mixed locality pythons only for the hobbyist .
Under this license Carpets Pythons from different sub species can be bred together and maybe the childrens group ?
But all other species are out of bounds for Hybridisation, etc

But under the hobbyist licence you cannot own locality pure forms .

Same goes for the for the Wildlife locality license, only locality forms can be kept from long established lines . 

Under this agreement all parties would be happy.
But for me as I breed same locality and mixed locality jungles ?
myself and others would be the looser not being able to keep both types on the one licence etc.

Now I am totally against hybrids .
But I will not attack another person rights to choose what they do in there hobby or business in relation to reptiles .etc
Each state have regulations is place and these guidelines should be followed .

In time this simple solution may take place .or maybe not ??

Now should we vote on this idea by poll . 

cheers
Roger


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## mcloughlin2 (Jan 30, 2009)

Hey Roger,

Problem is DECC will not have the man power to enforce both licencing systems. Seems to be a sound solution apart from the obvious problems of them being under - staffed.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 30, 2009)

So when you have a type one license, you may not keep Albinos? As this is an unnatural form of the locality? Think about it, they fall under the second class of license type that you are suggesting. The government will never be able to control what goes on in the reptile hobby. They also have more important things to worry about, like the amount of drugs coming over the border to name just one. There are very few lines that can be traced back to their origin. A handfull I would guess. As the hobby started out as an underground operation with people keeping reptiles that were wild caught. That is why these so called pure blood lines would never be used to repopulate wild populations. There was never any science involved when the first original animals were collected. And I dont believe it when people claim to know exactly where the animals are from as they would never confess to catching the animals illegally. It is just too easy to launder snakes onto your books. This is just the nature of the beast I suppose. In an ideal world the hobby would have started where it is now, wild caught snakes of known origin. And people knowing how important it is to keep locality animals pure. People breeding hybrids happened 20 yaeras ago and not because they wanted to, but because they just did not know any better. There is still some control that can be applied by these newer generation Hybrid breeders. They can at least tell people what is in the mix. What about the thousands of Morelias out there that are crosses, that were never intentionally bred as their ancestry were of an unknown origin? This topic will be debated to death, As the only answer is not to breed them. But most of the damage has been done by the generations before us. We can just try to educate people by being 100% honest when selling our offspring, about their origins and what might be in the mix.
Regards


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## TrueBlue (Jan 30, 2009)

Rockman, hahahaha,
I think its moreliahunter with a different user name and the animals are jags. As has been said jags come in many different forms these days and these are just average ones. Im sure he has much better ones but posting pics of them would just be to oblvious. Thats what i really think. hahaha.


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## JasonL (Jan 30, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Rockman, hahahaha,
> I think its moreliahunter with a different user name and the animals are jags. As has been said jags come in many different forms these days and these are just average ones. Im sure he has much better ones but posting pics of them would just be to oblvious. Thats what i really think. hahaha.



So that would still make them Carpet crosses... Carpets that crossed an Ocean


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 30, 2009)

Highly doubt that Trueblue, he is in Victoria. And I know he is not keeping reptiles anymore.


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## Jungle_Freak (Jan 30, 2009)

Well my idea would need some fine tuning etc, its not written in stone LOL
Since Albinos are a natural occurring colour phase and nothing more .
They could be kept on both licences if different locality stock have been introduced to any albino species . 
As to proving locality provenance on any current captive bred stock, that's a bit tricky .


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## =bECS= (Jan 30, 2009)

JasonL said:


> So that would still make them Carpet crosses... Carpets that crossed an Ocean



:lol:


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## carpetmuncher (Jan 30, 2009)

JasonL said:


> So that would still make them Carpet crosses... Carpets that crossed an Ocean


 

you've solved the riddle.

but there's more clues to the identity of the owner, 1) central coast of nsw, 2) slitherin tubs, 3) wants to brag about what he has, 4) has numbers of smuggled in animals in his collection and 5) thinks everyone is stupid. 

nice jags w**ka


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## =bECS= (Jan 30, 2009)

hmmmmmm so the plot thickens *insert suspense music*

nice use of ** there


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## wackotecho (Jan 30, 2009)

All this talk of Hybrid and Crossed is making me wonder if this is what it's meant to be.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...snakes-picture9327-snappy-female-coastal.html Sorry but the pic is a little large.


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## cris (Jan 30, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> you've solved the riddle.
> 
> but there's more clues to the identity of the owner, 1) central coast of nsw, 2) slitherin tubs, 3) wants to brag about what he has, 4) has numbers of smuggled in animals in his collection and 5) thinks everyone is stupid.
> 
> nice jags w**ka



:shock: snapped :lol: (well unless your guess is wrong)


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## ClareB (Jan 30, 2009)

On the subject of crosses, has anyone else seen this ad for a 
Murray Darling x Jungle Carpet Python. Seems to be more and
more getting about. It just seems like cheating to me!

http://www.simpletrade.com.au/public_panel/result_details.php?id=755040

and on the same website I just found this, no pictures though

http://www.simpletrade.com.au/public_panel/result_details.php?id=765547


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## cris (Jan 30, 2009)

ClareB said:


> On the subject of crosses, has anyone else seen this ad for a
> Murray Darling x Jungle Carpet Python. Seems to be more and
> more getting about. It just seems like cheating to me!
> 
> ...



$300? tellem their dreamin. It almost looks like a coastal, what happens if ppl start passing off pure animals as hybrids just so they can sell them for more? The mongrel gene pool could be contaminated by a pure snakes, that were sold as hybrids.


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## caustichumor (Jan 30, 2009)

ClareB said:


> On the subject of crosses, has anyone else seen this ad for a
> Murray Darling x Jungle Carpet Python. Seems to be more and
> more getting about. It just seems like cheating to me!
> 
> ...



That's one way to try and get black and white jungles.....:lol:


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## wokka (Jan 30, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> you've solved the riddle.
> 
> but there's more clues to the identity of the owner, 1) central coast of nsw, 2) slitherin tubs, 3) wants to brag about what he has, 4) has numbers of smuggled in animals in his collection and 5) thinks everyone is stupid.
> 
> nice jags w**ka



A friend rang me and said you mean me. I looked at the clues and realised they doe't fit me. You must mean W.A,N.K.A".? eh


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## TrueBlue (Jan 30, 2009)

Cordylus,- I count be wrong. But i have my suspisions.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 30, 2009)

Do you really think that when the raid went down last year these snakes would not have been seen? And an investigation would have yielded how these animals were imported. I have seen his collection when he was still keeping in melbourne and I never saw any of those stunners as I would have been on his back to get some.


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## wokka (Jan 30, 2009)

I have finally read all that! I think to try and stop the breeding of hybrids is pushing it up hill.
Perhaps a better way to approach it is to establish a method to prove purity. On another forum there's been discussion of establishing some form of pedegree certification. Pilbara Pythons have picked up the batten and run with it and are now offerring pedigree certificates with wild court animals.'Who else can offer that form of proof? Who else can, or is game to, stand up and say where their locality animals came from?
Many of the so called pure locality animals offerred have dubious background. There are very few reliably local specific animals out there which so the majority of animals are locality hybrids. How many keepers know the locality of their Bredli? or does it only matter when the locality differences are obvious.


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## ad (Jan 30, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Cordylus,- I count be wrong. But i have my suspisions.



hehe yeah I agree, it reeks of the eggshell 
Must have imported these before being busted with the chondros, :lol:


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## Kris (Jan 30, 2009)

Ad, such a knoweledgable morph breeder wouldn't need to import morphs would he? He was set up


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## ad (Jan 30, 2009)

Yeah Kris, maybe the first pic is offspring from his "Axanthic Murray Darling" :lol:

The false nature of these hybrid breeders is pathetic, why try to pass jags off as if you have created hybrids, where are the clutch mates???????????????????????
No wonder he has gone quiet, he didnt really think this through did he?
Everyone says "as long as they are honest about it" - In all my time herping I havent seen a case yet where they are honest 
Here is another example.


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## Australis (Jan 30, 2009)

ad said:


> Yeah Kris, maybe the first pic is offspring from his "Axanthic Murray Darling"...



Haha, i almost forgot about those.
The Hybrid morph gurus really need to step outside for half a second.

This thread is a perfect example, where natural pattern/colour variants are
toted as man made morph, amazing.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Jan 30, 2009)

Rob, you're missing the sights of the sunny coast by the sounds of it... Go the beach browsing...

ihaveherps. As Rob said, select pockets of individual animals would have over time evolved to suit their surrounding, hence the subtle differences? I definitely see your point but if every slight variation in colour, pattern or size could or should deem that locale to be a sub species, we'd have 20+ Morelia subs (Brisbane, Buderim, Lismore, Proserpine etc). To be totally honest though, i'll admit taxonomy is not my strong point. Ta for the reply too mate.

My opinion; As long as locales and even certain subs of Morelia are crossed for a selective purpose, I don't have a drama with it. I respect people who are passionate about their pure animals, we own and breed a few ourselves. I'd also own a carpet that resembled an animal that holds a co-dom gene in a heart beat regardless of the suspected locality. There is room for both...


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 30, 2009)

At least getting these babies into Australia would have been worth getting caught for!!! I will have to ask him about these when I see him next. Bring on the Jags!!!
Den
"As long as locales and even certain subs of Morelia are crossed for a selective purpose"
People seem to forget that you can put 2 stunning animals of two different subspecies together to breed for certain traits that are attractive in both parents. But of course only locality type animals can be line bred or selectively bred, wich is absolute rubbish. Any snake can be selectively bred for certain traits over a few generations!!!


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## Wild~Touch (Jan 30, 2009)

Eventually our "ideals" will adjust accordingly. ie, we will get used to it

As far as honesty is concerned it seems nice to think it will happen, but I've been around too many horse,dog & cat breeders for too long and honesty has not reigned in any of them. Reptile people are no different 
JMHO
Cheers
Sandee


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## ad (Jan 30, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> At least getting these babies into Australia would have been worth getting caught for!!! I will have to ask him about these when I see him next. Bring on the Jags!!!




Great to see some integrity in the hobby :lol:

and you do see it as a possiblity hence the reason you will ask him?
Yeah his 'huge fine' would be a deterrent for anyone, is that what you are ridiculing with the 'worth getting caught for"?


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## The Devil (Jan 30, 2009)

I guess there will always be purists and others that just like pretty or different animals.
Looking at some of the ball pythons and jags on overseas sites, well, I'd kill for some of them.
Australia has been heading the same way for some time.

Who hasn't held back a great looking baby with plans to mate it with another to try and develop a stripe line of say jungles or coastals.

I can't understand why the identity of these people is so important, I've seen the snakes and I took the pics and yes in the flesh they look very interesting with great potential for future breeding.

I don't know where the snakes are at the moment and as they aren't of breeding size it doesn't really matter to me.

In a couple of years when the do breed I guess they will be advertised as different coastals, jungles or whatever.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 30, 2009)

To lose a reputation is a much bigger punishment than any court could hand out! Thus the getting out of the hobby. These animals are not his, I am sure of that. And Ad, I am sure you have got the most integrity of all!! Bet you, you kept reptiles before the licensing system was established. I am glad the Jags are here, and its only because they are so pretty that some breeders feel threatened by their presence. They know that it would take years to breed anything resembling some of the reduced patterned IJ jags floating around in overseas collections!!


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## TrueBlue (Jan 30, 2009)

Cordylus,- 
as said i may be wrong. He also may have had them at someone elses house when you visited.
He may also still keep reptiles under other peoples licences. Time will tell i spose.

Den,-
Not anymore ive done the move are are back on the sunny coast, eye candy everywhere.
I moved with a stack of clutches at all different stages of incubation and never lost an egg.
Blows the theroy that you need a back up system for the incubator if the power goes out for a few hours out of the water. It wasnt the couple of days out of the incubator that i was worried about it was the bump and pot hole riddled goat track they call the bruce hwy that i was more worried about. But they all survived the trip no worries.
When it comes to carpets i only see a small handfull that have evolved to be of different type animals, ie mds, diamonds, jungles, coastals, and cape yorks are about it, possibly proserpines and northern nsw carpets if you stretch it really far.. Brisbane and Buderim coastals are the same, and are also the same as most,(if not all), coastal populations from s/e qld to townsville. All forms of common old coastal carpets can be found up and down this huge area from hypos to stripes to what people call greys to all the hundreds of different colours and patterns that coastal come in. Their variation in colour and pattern seems endless even in the same area. Probally the most variable python in the world.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jan 30, 2009)

Cordylus
I think you would loose that bet with ad, when I first meet ad many years ago as a fellow museum, he never kept a single reptile but was exposed to a wide array of reptiles in my collection and thus the seed was sewn. He has come a long way in a sort period of time though and gained more experience than me with several species.
Anyway back to the topic I guess.

Cheers Dave


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 30, 2009)

Its just always so easy to bring up the integrity issue. The opposite of integrity is hypocrisy! Its like people pointing fingers at drink driving or scamming centrelink! But are themselves guilty of the crime. The reptile hobby is very restricting in Australia and people always want what they can't have. So they might end up in a position where they can suddenly get their hands on something they always wanted? Would you say no? If this is what a persons integrity is based on then society have really gotten itself a bunch of internet evangelists!
How many snakes do you think gets caught without licences in Queensland? What do you think is worse? Love the reduced pattern mungrel whatever crosses! Bring em on!


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## hardcorey007 (Jan 30, 2009)

*My two bobs worth*

My two bobs worth;
As we can all see hybrids are gaining popularity here in Australia. Like it or not it’s a fact. The thing I want to highlight is that the examples that we have seen are amazing specimens. But what you don’t see is the less attractive ones (couldn’t bring myself to say ugly) that were also produced. I want people not to get carried away in the hype and think, ‘if I cross my two different species I’ll get snakes that look like those cool ones’. It doesn’t quite work like that. You may get some nice ones, but the chances are against it, especially if you don’t have snakes with amazing traits to start off with.

So you breed your snakes like everyone else who has been inspired by threads like this one and you end up with a bunch of less attractive ‘crosses’ that you can’t sell. What then? Are you willing to hold on to them? Will you euthanize them? Or will you sell your soul and sell them off as pure breeds? 
I just really want to highlight that there is more to this than just crossing two species and getting a guaranteed cool snake at the end of it. Please think long and hard and consider the ramifications of your decision before you commence cross breeding\hybridizing. The last thing we want is the market to be flood with crosses that nobody wants.

I’m not against hybrids and cross breeds, quite the opposite in fact. I like them and may even own one myself someday. That’s the cool thing about this great country of ours, we have the right to choose. Please think about it before you choose.

Corey.


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## Den from Den Pythons (Jan 30, 2009)

Ahhh, you are back Rob. Boat in toe I’m sure...
Yeah, when I mentioned Buderim my thoughts were at the few I've seen that are very similar to Coffs carpets in appearance. The bloke that lived on top of the car yard owned them. 

Anyways, when bred responsibly I'm sure even better offspring would be produced. I look forward to seeing pics of the offspring in the future! There is the point Corey made about the 'offcuts' (for lack of a better word). I'd assume these would be euthanised. But that's a whole new tangent this thread could taper into...


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## cris (Jan 30, 2009)

Den said:


> There is the point Corey made about the 'offcuts' (for lack of a better word). I'd assume these would be euthanised. But that's a whole new tangent this thread could taper into...



There are plenty of reptiles that sell for little money, far less than any hybrid snake. Anyway there are plenty of goannas, mulga snake and BHP's to take care of any left overs.


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## pythonmania (Jan 30, 2009)

At the end of the day, everyone's opinions differ and we as an individual can choose to accept these new breeds or not with our wallets and purses. I for one think they are lovely especially the 2nd and 4th.


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## wackotecho (Jan 30, 2009)

*I found this list on the net, interesting to look at.*

*Here is a list of known hybrids:*
*-Diamond x Jungle Carpet = DxJ*
*-Diamond x Coastal Carpet = DxC*
*-Diamond X Bredls*
*-Diamond X (Bredls X Coastal) [Jaguar]*
*-Diamond x Inland (metcalfei)*
*-Bredls x Inland (metcalfei)*
*-Bredls x Jungle Carpet*
*-Bredls X Coastal [Jaguar]*
*-Bredls X (Bredls X Coastal) [Jaguar]*
*-West Papuan X (Bredls X Coastal ) [Jaguar]*
*-Coastal x Inland (metcalfei)*
*-Jungle x Water Python (Liasis fuscus) *
*-Jungle x Coastal Carpet = JxC*
*-Coastal x Macklots*
*-Jungle X (Coastal X Macklots) = Junglot*
*-Jungle x Tanimbar(nauta)*
*-Burm x African Rock*
*-Burm X Ball*
*-Burm x Retic = Bateater*
*-Burm x (Retic x Burm)*
*-Burm x Tiger Retic*
*-Retic x (Retic X Burm) = Jungle Retic (Thanks Kara)*
*-Kinghorni x Coastal*
*-Kinghorni x Jungle*
*-Kinghorni x fuscus by Royal Melbourne Zoo 1978*
*-Moluccan x Barneck*
*-Moluccan x Coastal*
*-Southern x Barneck*
*-Barneck x (Diamond X Coastal) by John Huntress 2008*
*-(IJ Carpet X Sorong GTP) X Coastal Jaguar Carpet= Jagpondro by Yasser Moustafa 2008*
*-Borneo STP X Red Blood*
*-Borneo STP x Black Blood*
*-Black Blood x Red Blood*
*-Borneo STP x Ball *
*-(Borneo STP x Ball) X Ball*
*-Angolan X Ball *
*-Woma x WP Carpet = Coma*
*-Macklots x Carpet = Carplot*
*-Macklots X Jungle = Junglot*
*-(Macklots X Jungle) X Jungle*
*-(Macklots X Carpet) X (IJ x Coastal Jaguar Carpet) = Jaglot by NERD*
*-Diamond X (Macklots X Jungle)= Dicarplot by NERD*
*-IJ Carpet (WP) X Ball = Carpall AKA Ballpet,Barpet *
*-Bredlijaguars x IJ carpets*
*-Diamond x Bredlijaguar*
*-Irian Jaya x 50% Jungle Jaguars (Irian Jaya x cheyni/mcdoweli)*
*-Carpet (various ssp.) x Green Tree = Carpondro*
*includes: Coastal X GTP*
*Diamond X Coastal X GTP*
*West Papuan X GTPby Chriss Rouille 2005*
*Jungle X GTP*

*Here is some interesting reading also:*

http://www.smuggled.com/hybsna1.htm 

http://www.smuggled.com/hybpyt2.htm


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## Khagan (Jan 30, 2009)

@ The list.. I'm not against hybrids, purely because our normal carpets have so much variation it just intrigues me what could turn out combining 2 lots of variation.. But god some of those ones are a bit stupid.


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## wackotecho (Jan 30, 2009)

Just shows what people in this hobby are willing to try, and that includes the Melbourne Zoo in the 70's


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Jan 31, 2009)

I would also just like to know what constitutes a good looking snake? How do we gauge what is spectacular? None of the locality line bred lines of carpets even resemble the wild occuring locality carpets. You also never see the professional line breeders show of the ugly babies in the clutch as this would not be good for their business. In every clutch of snakes at least three quarters end up looking ugly when they are adult. But what's ugly to me could be beautiful to somebody else. My point I guess is that you would have as many good looking snakes out of a clutch of mungrels as you would have out of a clutch of so called line bred animals. Its an evolutionery thing, nature makes sure there is enough diversity in a clutch so that some might make it to adulthood. Do yourself a favour and look at some of the reduced patterned Irian Jaya jags that are overseas! Definately the best looking carpet in the world in my opinion! And I know some will say its a jaguar, but its actually a mungrel. The irian jaya genes enhance the colour of the final jag! That is why people selectively cross breed, to find these enhancing traits. I do however have issues with people doing intra specific crosses!
Regards


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## Australis (Jan 31, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> None of the locality line bred lines of carpets even resemble the wild occuring locality carpets...



Thats ludicrous... you must not have of seen many wild carpet pythons then (not just those shown
on internet forums and the like).


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## TrueBlue (Jan 31, 2009)

cordylus,-
I totally agree with Australis. That comment you made is absolute rubbish, and as he said you oblviously have not seen many wild carpets.
Ive seen better examples in the wild of pretty much all line bred coastals.


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## DonnB (Jan 31, 2009)

I personally dislike hybrids. What will happen if one day we need to replenish wild stock because of extinction or other problems. I personally would like pure lines to go back into the wild. Not these mongrels ppl seem to wont to produce. Also i think most of them are ugly.


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## pythons73 (Jan 31, 2009)

Ive actually seen a few Really nice carpets in the wild,some are alot nicer than the ones in captivity.What you think is a nice snake,others will think its ugly.Everyone has different taste,especially in reptiles.Not all of us like exactly the same snake,theres so much colour and markings variations in alot of our localle carpets.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 31, 2009)

cordylus,- heres a new angle on things.
Are you MH in disguise.?? Be truthful now.!!

Could qldmorelias be snake-addict in disguise.?

Detective Rob is on the job. hahaha.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 31, 2009)

Maybe not snake-addict, as new info leads to belive.

Hey qldmorelias,- are you taking any of these animals to the qld reptile show.??


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## Simple (Jan 31, 2009)

Moreliac said:


> I personally dislike hybrids. What will happen if one day we need to replenish wild stock because of extinction or other problems. I personally would like pure lines to go back into the wild. Not these mongrels ppl seem to wont to produce. Also i think most of them are ugly.



Unfortuneatly they disappear from the wild due to land clearing, water pollution, lack of food for hatchlings , climate change, they do not disappear for no reason. So to re-populate a whole lot of other issues will need to be fixed. This is unlikely to happen.


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## gozz (Jan 31, 2009)

Hey qldmorelias,- are you taking any of these animals to the qld reptile show.??[/quote]
That would be good, to see them in the flesh


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## m.punja (Jan 31, 2009)

that would make for an interesting scene, if he does i hope someone with a vid camera is handy all day


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## caustichumor (Jan 31, 2009)

The reason I like pure animals is the exact reason other people want hybrids, We only have our own native animals for the hobby in Australia, that's why I see it as a good reason to keep each sub-species seperate (to keep as many varieties available as possible to keepers.) Others see the same thing however want to try and breed "new varieties" to fill out the market. But only one method has the ability to eventually make the other option obsolete....


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## Oldbeard (Jan 31, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> cordylus,- heres a new angle on things.
> Are you MH in disguise.?? Be truthful now.!!
> 
> Could qldmorelias be snake-addict in disguise.?
> ...


 
great detective work. It seems the person who took the photos says he took them in Northern NSW. the person posting the pics says they are in Central coast NSW, acusee No1 MH, is in Vic acusee No2 Wokka is in Newcastle (locale is neither northern NSW or Central coast, but smack bang in between) which according to some was the only point that didnt fit the description of him LOL jj wok.
It doesnt take a genius to work out who some people are, on here, but man i am confused now.
Anyway it was a fun read, thx for the entertainment
Jags are ugly anyway. why cant someone bring some gila monsters over and cross them with a blue tongue.NOW that would be something to argue about. :shock:


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## Kris (Jan 31, 2009)

They said it so it's true. they'd never lie on here. Everybody tells the truth on the interweb.


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## Pythonking (Jan 31, 2009)

is it about time shut down this thread or is it classified good for Australian reptiles? maybe its just me but a bit sick of this thread


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## Kris (Jan 31, 2009)

You don't have to keep looking at this educational gossip column.

Trueblue, QLDMorelias hasn't asked us to show non-Jag's or any other mixes. Still got a bit of time to reserve a table yet though.

Kris.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 1, 2009)

quote=Moreliac;1366756]I personally dislike hybrids. What will happen if one day we need to replenish wild stock because of extinction or other problems. I personally would like pure lines to go back into the wild. Not these mongrels ppl seem to wont to produce. Also i think most of them are ugly.[/quote]

Thats what Zoos and the Taxon advisory group are for. Private herpers will probabaly nver be considered to help in a recovery program, if it were ever needed.


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2009)

I can't think of a single private keeper that would ever be called upon to provide animals for restocking the wild, it wont ever happen, too much doubt about provenance and more so disease.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 1, 2009)

I guess you will never know, hey Rob?


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## Kersten (Feb 1, 2009)

Oh I think we do :lol:


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 1, 2009)

Maybe Australians should not be allowed to keep their native snake species as from what I have read on this forum there are too many of you who are extremely slack about the way in which you keep you snakes which leads to their ultimate escape.

Then there are those of you who are anti hybrids / crosses.

Your problem is that the snakes that you keep are from your native fauna and whether you keep pure line species or hybrids does not have a bearing as regards to retaining the integrity of your native wildlife stocks.

In a nutshell none of you if you are that concerned about your countries future health of its wildlife should be keeping reptiles in captivity as there are always going to be the idiots amongst you who either release their pet snakes into the wild out of their natural ranges or have them escape due to inadequate enclosures or just being absent minded.

It does not matter if you are keeping pure - specific locality species or good old mongrels as if you are keeping either and one were to escape it poses an equal threat to the purity of the native snake population. Morelia species are the best example as a male morelia of any of the varieties will quite happily mate any female be she a GTP, coastal, jungle, bredli or whatever because as far as he is concerned a shag is a shag (they dont need you to rub the skin of a freshly shed female of their own species onto a female of another to entice mating as they just love to mate hence why they don't discriminate on their quest for female company ).

So in reality for those of you who are anti hybrids on the grounds of well 'what f it were to escape etc etc' you should really think twice about keeping your snakes. Maybe you should not be keeping snakes or if you really have to then maybe you should only keep snakes that are found in your very immediate locality and not keep snakes from other areas and especially not from any other states in Australia.

Alternatively you could just start keeping them just a bit more responsibly and stop them from escaping and then you may just never have any future problems with artificial hybridisation in the wild.


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2009)

Best post of the thread so far


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 1, 2009)

Encore, encore, encore! Love your work diamondgeeza!


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## Australis (Feb 1, 2009)

Its not unheard of actually diamondgeeza (private keepers like Craig Latta),
besides very few people would be anti-hybrid on the basis you argue against, that being the
release of stock back to the wild. 

Do you also have a problem with keepers in North America keeping Corns? for the reasons
you mention, or is it just us silly little Australians who have snakes escape.. surely more 
corns escape each year in America than Australian snakes escaping from Aussie collections
given the minuscule number of reptile keepers (people in general) in Australia... 
A quick look at some north American field herper reports will give you an idea.

If you want to talk about native wild life , perhaps its overseas keepers who then should
be prohibited from keeping Australian fauna, to cut back the market for smuggling reptiles
out of the country? (im not saying it would work however).


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## ad (Feb 1, 2009)

hehe Australis,
Yes, us silly little aussies should cross breed our reptiles now based on this pom's thorough understanding of keeping in Australia,
As England is so similar to Australia's situation,  ie they have a grass skink as their only native reptile hehe, and we have everything. 
Also, most reptiles that escaped in England would be dead the next winter, most wouldnt survive the summer :lol:
What does it matter to a pom, south african, canadian or whatever, how Australians want to keep their native fauna, 
Maybe before they preach the way of the future, and the benefit to Australian reptile hobby, we should realize that, most want it 'like home' more than any 'advancement' of our hobby,

Would they cross breed a Tree Kangaroo with a Big Red? Ya might get 'Red German Giants" climbing trees or hopping backwards


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## QldMorelias (Feb 1, 2009)

For everyone out there wanting to know who Qld Morelias is, I have just posted a photo of my true identity on the Qld Morelias page, Just click the Qld Morelias icon on this message to view. Lets see how good your detective work is now.

and yes the other photos in the gallery are a collection from around the globe and some from Aus, not trying to take credit for other peoples work, just trying to open more peoples eyes to what can be done.


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## textilis (Feb 1, 2009)

I am taking orders for a new species of snake that im sure will be a big hit with designer snake keepers,.................
it is a diamond python cross colubrid, having the beauty of a diamond and the delecate tooth of a rear fanged snake, I intend to call them ............... Dia-rear!!!!
Thats what i think of this intentional cross breeding and so fourth, in all my years of herps I never thought Australia would come to this, it is so true that Australia is following suit of so many other countries and becoming Americanised, and it can be witnessed in Aussie herp keeping today, it was never heard of in Oz when I started keeping herps and all of a sudden new keepers pop on the seen with their American loving ways and now look at the situation. Where is the patriotisim, stay true to Australia and what we stand for, love our herps natural diversity.
It has been metioned that in the future purist keepers will benifit the most from having true blood lines, but are we sure of this, if geneticlly pure animals become worth small fortunes who is to say that these intentional mongrel breeders wont try to pass off tampered blood lines as pure to make the quick buck out of the situation as they are presently.


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## Aussietoby (Feb 1, 2009)

Each to their own really.
people's opinions should not be criticized because they are opposite to what someone else thinks.

They are good looking snakes.
And if they are hybrids who the hell cares.

If he they want to breed them, that's their choice.

You don't have to breed them,
or buy them.

People are entitled to do what they wish with what they have.
It's not wrong or right.
Just different, 
And i think people on APS are absolutely terrified of change.


Joe


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## zobo (Feb 1, 2009)

I do have to say that I am also worried about the number of keepers that have snakes escaping. Be a bit more careful, lock cages, and get decent cages. I have a few mates that all keep large numbers of snakes yet none of us have ha a single animal escape. It then amuses me when some of the same keepers then express issues about hybrids as they are worried about the natives. A carpet accidently released in the wrong area could actually cause wild hybrids too, so lock up your animals.

j


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## Bushfire (Feb 1, 2009)

To Diamondgeeza: I agree with the main points you are pushing here.

To textilis: I don't think this is an American trend per say, its more of a global trend and its not just with animals. People want what is pretty because pretty things (in this case animals) can potentially increase their status and wealth. Its the same thinking whether its with locality lines or hybrid lines. As the natural forms become more commonly kept snakes that once was considered money makers aren't bring in the returns or the status the keepers thought they had so they are having to find ways to put themselves above the rest. (Just look at when the market value for a particular snake drops how many keepers are looking to sell their breeding stock or stop breeding) So far they are trying to do this with locality lines, unusual patterns, and hybrid lines.
Depending on how far back you come from, I think you will find it as your generation (again assuming the era in 70s, 80s and earlier) started this trend by putting some snakes value over others. Also lets stop beating around the bush and face it back then they didn't care about locality prue lines they just matched up whatever looked similar or could get their hands on. So much so that the majority of really common reptiles kept are either hybrid or potential hybrid, depending on what side of the coin you sit are you a lumper or a splitter. You dont have to look far or think that hard on what happened to the childreni complex. 


As I see the current situation there is two extremes locality prue and hybrid. The majority of herpers are somewhat in the middle of those extremes as you would expect. The locality prue breeders are trying to push the majority to there side by using scare tactics and be little the hybrid side whereas the hybrid side are showing their best animals trying to whoo a bigger following. This thread is just another example of this battle between extremes. But I see the more that locality prue pull over to their side, the more hybrids are hidden for fear of the mob. So in all this where do I sit?? Lets see I do keep locality prue stock but not because its locality known but because I like the colours and patterns a particular form displays. But I also keep animals of unknown not proven localities so potentially hybrids, but thats fine with me too because I like their colours. So I sit somewhat in the middle. I can admire animals from hybrid origins because they are unusual and in my eyes pretty.


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## wizz (Feb 1, 2009)

will lots of them are getting out on the gold coast..............6 so far this year...that do not come from here....


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## zobo (Feb 1, 2009)

here is a pic of one of my PURE jungles that looks almost as good as the ones at start, just food for thought! Bit more selective breeding and should have some crackers!

jas


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Totally agree Diamondgeeza, very well said


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## melgalea (Feb 1, 2009)

holy crap Zobo. that is hot hot hot. nothing beats the purity of a jungle. very nice indeed. if this is the future of pure snakes then i am there. why buy crap when the real thing is better.


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## draqonfly (Feb 1, 2009)

nice jungle zobo !!! if only its easy to find pure jungles like those !!!! i think usually if a jungle is outstanding in appearance, the breeder wouldnt even consider selling it


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Feb 1, 2009)

Zobo, agaib, for the 400th time, My god that jungle is rediculous. If you die can I have that one? 

He'd be close to breeding now wouldn't he? What are you gunne put him with?


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## cris (Feb 1, 2009)

zobo said:


> here is a pic of one of my PURE jungles that looks almost as good as the ones at start, just food for thought! Bit more selective breeding and should have some crackers!
> 
> jas



Nice  what locale is it?


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## Jungleland (Feb 1, 2009)

What a Monster of a thread

I was really surprise to see that it's still going, similar subject in the past gets easily out of hand resulting for the thread to get close.

great to read what different campers got to say, this is inevitable so might as well get debated in a nice manner so people can read and learn by the discussion and keepers and future hobbyist can choose which path to take.

The beauty of living in this country is that we have better options than other herpers around the world IMO, There will always be crosses but we can still source pure form locality animals that has been line bred and proven traits, definately room for both

here's a sample of pure prosiepine local animals I wil,l rate it as above average as I have seen some real screamers, I know it's no jag but as i said before they are in the league of their own, we have so much variety in this country and have every reason to enjoy this hobby.


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## Southside Morelia (Feb 1, 2009)

I agree there...
BUT stop showing off...
Yer it is above average....:shock: Beautiful animal mate as usual!!!....



Jungleland said:


> What a Monster of a thread
> 
> I was really surprise to see that it's still going, similar subject in the past gets easily out of hand resulting for the thread to get close.
> 
> ...


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## Simple (Feb 1, 2009)

zobo said:


> here is a pic of one of my PURE jungles that looks almost as good as the ones at start, just food for thought! Bit more selective breeding and should have some crackers!
> 
> jas



Are these locality animals?


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## stuartandconnie (Feb 1, 2009)

well done im sure people in the bird word were aganced it 1st off but look how that has changed


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## krefft (Feb 1, 2009)

It's great to see everyone adopting a live and let live approach on the subject. Or maybe both camps have just given up trying to win people to their way of thinking. 
And finally some pictures. I bought this first guy on AHC off a breeder in Qld. I got 3 but the other 2 are nowhere near as good.
The second photo was given to me as a Murry Darling??! So I guess that make's it a Muddymongrelmutt, but it's also pretty hot. I will be breeding her with something next season. Yes, and I will sell the offspring as Muddymongrelmutts if your interested.


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 1, 2009)

Australis said:


> Its not unheard of actually diamondgeeza (private keepers like Craig Latta),
> besides very few people would be anti-hybrid on the basis you argue against, that being the
> release of stock back to the wild.
> 
> ...



I am sure they do escape elsewhere Australis but it seems to be only you Australians who whinge so much about snakes being anti hybrid (and by whinge I mean whinge more than us pomes) and stating that it is the hybrids that will cause the problems to you native snakes when they escape.

In addition to hybridisation should you also not be looking down your noses at line breeding as this in time will result with you having snakes that also look a million miles away from their natural form. Many people say that so and so snake is a 'specific locality' but due to the fact that it has been selectively bred by the best looking of its species (which again is not what the snakes in question would go for as they are just up for a good old mating session and the females pattern is irrelevant) it generally looks nothing like its true form (but however does look good).

So in addition to hydrids should you also be now bullying the keepers who selectively breed?

You should face it, you may not like the keeping / making of hybrid species but you are fighting a loosing battle. As time progresses you will find that most snakes kept in captivity will be far larger and more attractively patterned than their native counterparts.

*ps. you will also find that the majority of Australian snakes smuggled out of Australia is by Australians. You will also find that the majority of it was captive bred too such as the albino darwins etc etc*


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## hawkesbury reptiles (Feb 1, 2009)

Interesting 'Murray Darling' you have there.....could be interesting...


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## krefft (Feb 1, 2009)

The two I posted are male and female and around the same size. That could be a pairing for next year I think.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 1, 2009)

diamondgezza, 
Its the hobby that my main argument is about. As has been said, (and already done in oz), people will pass hybrids off as pure animals when selling them and in turn pollute the hobby. It will end up putting a cloud of dought over alot of species, as in years to come the waters will get far to muddied to tell what is still pure and what is not.
Albino darwins are a perfect example of this, people are putting them over every form of carpet they can get their hands on. It wont take many years untill every pure albino darwin in the country has a cloud of dought over it.


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## cris (Feb 1, 2009)

diamondgeeza said:


> I am sure they do escape elsewhere Australis but it seems to be only you Australians who whinge so much about snakes being anti hybrid (and by whinge I mean whinge more than us pomes) and stating that it is the hybrids that will cause the problems to you native snakes when they escape.
> 
> In addition to hybridisation should you also not be looking down your noses at line breeding as this in time will result with you having snakes that also look a million miles away from their natural form. Many people say that so and so snake is a 'specific locality' but due to the fact that it has been selectively bred by the best looking of its species (which again is not what the snakes in question would go for as they are just up for a good old mating session and the females pattern is irrelevant) it generally looks nothing like its true form (but however does look good).
> 
> ...



Apart from the generalisations and resulting anti-Aussie feeling you seem to be expressing i agree with most of what you are saying. Some cant seem to get their heads around the idea that once you are keeping something in a box and removing natural selection you arnt dealing with wild animals anymore, but rather starting to domesticate them.


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## zobo (Feb 1, 2009)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> Zobo, agaib, for the 400th time, My god that jungle is rediculous. If you die can I have that one?
> 
> He'd be close to breeding now wouldn't he? What are you gunne put him with?



No I think I have to leave him to wife in my will!

He was bought as a palmerston jungle? but who knows? all I know is the parents looked jungle. 

I have some cracker palmerston females I got from Nik STOCK for him to go with. He is big enough but not sure on females......maybe I need to STUD him out!!

jas


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Feb 1, 2009)

zobo said:


> No I think I have to leave him to wife in my will!
> 
> He was bought as a palmerston jungle? but who knows? all I know is the parents looked jungle.
> 
> ...



I think you should...  

I've got a Stock female here. She ain't striped but I'm sure she's het. Very yellow too...Nick and Rex breed some stunners aye.


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## SnakePower (Feb 1, 2009)

Well, I have been watching this thread every now and then, but have been out of action for the last week or so due to some family issues. Anyway, I got a few minutes so I thought I would add to the thread...

Gorgeous Prossie Joel, stunning as always... not just above average! 

Krefft, Hot first pic! I think I got some animals from the same clutch and the same guy in QLD, they were very Jag like. Mine looks great, but is still quite small as I quarantine any new stock/blood for 1-2yrs. Rather be safe than sorry and they unfortunately don't get fed as often as the animals in my main collection, which are in a different building. 

Rob, I agree with what you are saying. Albinos are the perfect example, but wouldn't the doubt be cast over new species of Albino carpets eg Jungles, not the Darwins??

Yes, there is always going to be room in this hobby for all kinds of keepers and their choices on what animals they wish to keep and or breed. As already said, one of the beauties of living down under!

We sure have come along way with selective and line breeding for specific result and traits, however there will always remain those that want to experiment (hybrids/crosses), and that is their choice. Our choice whether or not to buy from them. 

Here is another nice Prossie... 






And results from selective breeding for white RP Jungles





Great thread by the way, well maybe... it's certainly had it's ups and downs LOL. I think this might be the longest running thread on APS ever!!

Zac.


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## scorps (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok so after 28 pages and 412 posts all thats come out of this really is some random who no one knows is posting pics of hybrids that may or may not be his or even in australia and everyone is arguing about it?


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2009)

Mmm, yeah that's a pretty fair summary.


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## wizz (Feb 1, 2009)

RRRRRRRRR yep!!!!


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## cris (Feb 1, 2009)

I agree, lets add an entire page of comments that are even more pointless


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Just like Holden vs Ford, Which one is better, again it is only one's opinion....


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2009)

I like pizza but not anchovies.


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## zobo (Feb 1, 2009)

One thing I have noticed after reading this thread, is that the people for hybrids are quite prepared to just disagree with the anti-hybrid users, but the same can't be said for the 'against' hybrid users.

I think people need to realise that they will not agree with each other no matter how much they push their own opinions on others. 

Each side WILL NOT be able to change the others mindset and I think that we just have to accept that it will happen and the 'purists' can breed pure lines and the hybrid folk can do their thing.

I'm no betting man but I would put a lot of money on designer snakes taking over in the next few decades.

jas


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Go the Anchovies while driving a Holden.........couldnt get any better.......yes it could Anchovies, a Clubsport, and a xxxx............Mmm, "liking lips"............


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

zobo said:


> One thing I have noticed after reading this thread, is that the people for hybrids are quite prepared to just disagree with the anti-hybrid users, but the same can't be said for the 'against' hybrid users.
> 
> I think people need to realise that they will not agree with each other no matter how much they push their own opinions on others.
> 
> ...


That is it in an eggshell Jas....


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## Ramsayi (Feb 1, 2009)

zobo said:


> One thing I have noticed after reading this thread, is that the people for hybrids are quite prepared to just disagree with the anti-hybrid users, but the same can't be said for the 'against' hybrid users.
> 
> I think people need to realise that they will not agree with each other no matter how much they push their own opinions on others.
> 
> ...



That may be so but its because the purists will never directly affect the hybrid breeders,the same however can't be said in return.Designers snakes and hybrids don't necessarily go hand in hand either.It is quite possible to produce designer animals using only pure stock through selective breeding.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Feb 1, 2009)

beer and pizza.mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> That may be so but its because the purists will never directly affect the hybrid breeders,the same however can't be said in return.Designers snakes and hybrids don't necessarily go hand in hand either.It is quite possible to produce designer animals using only pure stock through selective breeding.


 
Rather contradictive. Has anyone seen a tri striped coastal, jungle etc, in the wild.
We see striped but never seen tri's, not even photos of them. Iam sure if there was tri striped animals in the wild, there would be photos..... Seen neither.
I guess it is the same end result.


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

can we get to page 50??????????????????


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## krefft (Feb 1, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> That may be so but its because the purists will never directly affect the hybrid breeders,the same however can't be said in return.Designers snakes and hybrids don't necessarily go hand in hand either.It is quite possible to produce designer animals using only pure stock through selective breeding.





If that's the case why do the animals _need _to be pure stock?


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## Ramsayi (Feb 1, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> Rather contradictive. Has anyone seen a tri striped coastal, jungle etc, in the wild.
> We see striped but never seen tri's, not even photos of them. Iam sure if there was tri striped animals in the wild, there would be photos..... Seen neither.
> I guess it is the same end result.



How is that contradictive? Are you implying that tri striped animals in the hobby are the result of hybridising?


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## Kersten (Feb 1, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> That may be so but its because the purists will never directly affect the hybrid breeders,the same however can't be said in return.Designers snakes and hybrids don't necessarily go hand in hand either.It is quite possible to produce designer animals using only pure stock through selective breeding.



Amen.


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## Retic (Feb 1, 2009)

Sorry, no anchovies and I'd go for a Prius over the Holden, go the hybrids :lol:



phatt01 said:


> Go the Anchovies while driving a Holden.........couldnt get any better.......yes it could Anchovies, a Clubsport, and a xxxx............Mmm, "liking lips"............


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

boa said:


> Sorry, no anchovies and I'd go for a Prius over the Holden, go the hybrids :lol:[/quote
> very good pmsl a lot


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ramsayi said:


> How is that contradictive? Are you implying that tri striped animals in the hobby are the result of hybridising?


The fish are biting


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## scorps (Feb 1, 2009)

Ramsayi; He was implying that the tri striped where produced form line breeding not hybridising which somehow this thread is also focusing on. 

I am not saying their are no tri striped snakes in the wild.


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

scorps said:


> Ramsayi; He was implying that the tri striped where produced form line breeding not hybridising which somehow this thread is also focusing on.
> 
> I am not saying their are no tri striped snakes in the wild.


Thanks Scorps. That was wot I was trying to say, but to many bourbons


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## Australis (Feb 1, 2009)

diamondgeeza said:


> I am sure they do escape elsewhere Australis but it seems to be only you Australians who whinge so much about snakes being anti hybrid (and by whinge I mean whinge more than us pomes) and stating that it is the hybrids that will cause the problems to you native snakes when they escape.



Its only a very small minority of people who even think hybrids escaping will be particularly detrimental
to wild populations over other non-local escapees... in fact come to think of it i don't personally know a single
person who holds such views, seems to be mostly younger forum members (no offense to young people).
You do seem to be baising your opinions of the reptile keeping hobby as a whole on a single reptile forum..:lol:
good work.



diamondgeeza said:


> So in addition to hydrids should you also be now bullying the keepers who selectively breed?



"Bullying" oh god :lol: cry me a river.
I don't have any problem with selective breeding, considering its essentially the only form of breeding
possible in captivity for the most part at least.



diamondgeeza said:


> *ps. you will also find that the majority of Australian snakes smuggled out of Australia is by Australians. You will also find that the majority of it was captive bred too such as the albino darwins etc etc*



I never suggested it wasn't Australians or at least "residents" doing the smuggling, the nationality of the
actual smuggler is completely irrelevant to the point i raised... which is the o/s keepers being the market 
for Australian animals, which in turn prompts the smugglers.


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## Australis (Feb 1, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> Rather contradictive. Has anyone seen a tri striped coastal, jungle etc, in the wild.
> We see striped but never seen tri's, not even photos of them. Iam sure if there was tri striped animals in the wild, there would be photos..... Seen neither.
> I guess it is the same end result.



:lol: ... yes ive seen tri striped coastals in the wild, so would most who look,
hell i bet if you put the bourbon down and left your computer you might even 
see some yourself.


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## Kris (Feb 1, 2009)

I find tri-stripes, Hypos and oh, this one is the best- axanthics quite often. I'm a relocator in Central QLD and don't consider any of them particularly unusual. Some of the rubbish that some new, flash in the pan morph breeders(they're funny little buggers) advertise is so sad you could cry. Maybe I should photograph every one that I find from now on.

Kris


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Australis said:


> :lol: ... yes ive seen tri striped coastals in the wild, so would most who look,
> hell i bet if you put the bourbon down and left your computer you might even
> see some yourself.


Funny how no one posts pics of them, cause i sure as hell know if I saw one I would take photos.
I might add I probably travell more than you do in a year, in a week. I see more snakes a week in the wild than most people do in their lifetime!


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## melgalea (Feb 1, 2009)

:shock::shock::shock::shock: is this thread still going.


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## Kris (Feb 1, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> Funny how no one posts pics of them, cause i sure as hell know if I saw one I would take photos.
> I might add I probably travell more than you do in a year, in a week. I see more snakes a week in the wild than most people do in their lifetime!



Do you travel during the day?

Why would I take photos of something that I consider ordinary?

Zoocam, this thread got shut down 3 pages ago. You are imagining you are reading this. Go to bed.


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## melgalea (Feb 1, 2009)

Kris said:


> Zoocam, this thread got shut down 3 pages ago. You are imagining you are reading this. Go to bed.




oh good it is shut down. was beginning to think all the beer was making me think it was still open.


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Kris said:


> Do you travel during the day?
> 
> Why would I take photos of something that I consider ordinary?
> 
> Zoocam, this thread got shut down 3 pages ago. You are imagining you are reading this. Go to bed.


I travell day and night cover from Mackay to Bowen to collinsville to moranbah to dysart middlemount clermont emerald blackwater biloela tarong then back to mackay, you being in cq would have knowledge of the areas i travell and the animals that would inhabit those said areas.


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## Bushfire (Feb 1, 2009)

Snake Power, I agree its up to the buyer to choose if they don't like it they wont pay, the same goes with people peddling hybrids as prue, if the buyer sees the animal and something just doesn't seem right they wont buy it and look else where, there is enough breeders out there breeding Morelia spilota ssp. for buyers to have a greater choice. For example at the moment I'm in the market for some juv diamonds, in my mind I have a clear picture on what a diamond should look like, if the animal in the add or what I see doesn't meet my expectations I'm not gonna buy it, it may well be a prue diamond but it comes down to whether I'm happy with my purchase and I wont be unless it meets my expectations. Then there is the rep and trust in the breeder. Now days when I want to buy something prue Ill go to someone with a good name and Ive heard good things about from other buyers. As the water gets muddy as you say with spilota those that want prue lines will seek the more reputable breeders and do their research more in what a prue should look like. I would be more angry with hybrid breeders if say they got hold of SW Womas or oenpellis before anyone else did and started crossing them before making prue lines available. 

Also I think albino darwins are tainted anyway, like come on how many keepers kept it to that specific locality and discarded other Darwins. The first one had a known locality but everyone just thought oh well this one is close enough. As the new albinos pop up in the other subspecies, I think it will be up to the buyers whether they believe the portrayed story or not, and that will depend on the evidence provided to support their claims.


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## Kris (Feb 1, 2009)

Then I'm sorry you've never seen one, seems like you'd like to. You've missed the area that I live in on that list........maybe I have them all here


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## phatt01 (Feb 1, 2009)

Kris said:


> Then I'm sorry you've never seen one, seems like you'd like to. You've missed the area that I live in on that list........maybe I have them all here


Maybe u do. Can post some pics as i would love to see one from the wild. Where in cq are u?


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## megrim (Feb 2, 2009)

krefft said:


> If that's the case why do the animals _need _to be pure stock?



One of the more insightful questions I've seen posed in this thread.

Yet to be tackled by either side of the 'fence'.

When one is line breeding to produce beautiful and extreme colours/patterns that differ from the majority of wild caught locality specimens, often to the point of only bearing resemblance in body shape alone, what indeed is the importance of 'pure' stock?.


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## ihaveherps (Feb 2, 2009)

megrim said:


> When one is line breeding to produce beautiful and extreme colours/patterns that differ from the majority of wild caught locality specimens, often to the point of only bearing resemblance in body shape alone, what indeed is the importance of 'pure' stock?.



Easy, because as in most breeding programs, only a percentage of the offspring are the desired outcome, the rest are varying degrees of the initial genetic possibilities.... if using pure stock then all offspring, are still pure, and likely to be variations from wild type to extreme morphs (obviously only relevent to the quote when the goal is locale morphs). If your mixing sub-species, you may hit that small percentage that you are chasing, though the rest are just average mutts. So the reason is at worst wild type if locale.... or average mutts that really dont have much to contribute to any real future programs.


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## Minka (Feb 2, 2009)

How ridiculous. I wish i could delete this thread and half the people contributing in it... Imo any average "wild type" pure animal eclipses the below standard muddied animals in circulation today.


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## megrim (Feb 2, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> Easy, because as in most breeding programs, only a percentage of the offspring are the desired outcome, the rest are varying degrees of the initial genetic possibilities.... if using pure stock then all offspring, are still pure, and likely to be variations from wild type to extreme morphs (obviously only relevent to the quote when the goal is locale morphs). If your mixing sub-species, you may hit that smaee percentage that you are chasing, though the rest are just average mutts.



This makes good sense to me, thankyou 

My only issue however, is with the percentage of offspring that are "varying degrees of the initial genetic possibilities". If I were looking for pure locality animals, especially to breed, these animals that look standard but carry possible wild morphs are now as usueless as any mongrel hybrid. They'll never be bred back to a pure, simple local morph, and unscrupulous breeders may sell them off as "non-line bred" locality-morph pure animals, only to throw strange and wonderful morphs a few years down the line when bred with a genuine local-pure morph.
Admittedly it's a niche problem, but a problem none-the-less, and one that could potentially affect those wishing to keep their animals as true to local and original colouring as possible.


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## Australis (Feb 2, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> Funny how no one posts pics of them, cause i sure as hell know if I saw one I would take photos.
> I might add I probably travell more than you do in a year, in a week. I see more snakes a week in the wild than most people do in their lifetime!



Well thats good phatt01, so by that reasoning of yours, you should have squillions of snake photos yeah?

I can think of a couple of talented photographers on this very forum that have probably forgotten about
more snakes theyve seen, than ive actually seen in my time, that rarely post photos on forums.
APS isnt the be all to end all of anything like people seem to think on this thread. :lol:


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## ihaveherps (Feb 2, 2009)

megrim said:


> This makes good sense to me, thankyou
> 
> My only issue however, is with the percentage of offspring that are "varying degrees of the initial genetic possibilities". If I were looking for pure locality animals, especially to breed, these animals that look standard but carry possible wild morphs are now as usueless as any mongrel hybrid. They'll never be bred back to a pure, simple local morph, and unscrupulous breeders may sell them off as "non-line bred" locality-morph pure animals, only to throw strange and wonderful morphs a few years down the line when bred with a genuine local-pure morph.
> Admittedly it's a niche problem, but a problem none-the-less, and one that could potentially affect those wishing to keep their animals as true to local and original colouring as possible.



ummm ..... thats a contridicting post.... locale morphs are the result of genetics that must (because of the locale aspect) originate in the wild populations, therefore even the extreme locale morph has the possibility to occur naturally in the wild, its just that via selection, we choose to increase the opportunity for these already present genes to be expressed. All in all these animals carry only the genetic material already present in wild populations. Your view seems to revolve around the assumption that all wild type animals are plain... the bumblebee bhp, albino darwin, albino olive, melanistic darwin... are all wild caught animals, and are by definition, wild type animals. Its a concept that seems difficult for people to wrap their heads around.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 2, 2009)

SnakePower,- 
no it will also cast doubt over pure darwins as well. You will end up with crosses that look like and tax out to pure darwins but are not. It will end up as a hell of a mess.

phatt01,-
tri stripped carpets and jungles are far more common in the wild than you would think. Some of the best examples ive seen have been wild animals.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 2, 2009)

Its already a hell of a mess. Especially if you dont have them crawling around in your backyard. I guess you are lucky when you live in Queensland.


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## MatE (Feb 2, 2009)

I dont have a camera with me 24/7 but have seen tri stripped carpets in the wild and single stripes.Just because i dont have photos doesnt mean they dont exist.My mate found a tri striped carpet at his place a few years back that people would love to have,but sorry no pics.


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## Kersten (Feb 2, 2009)

Lol what's with the idea that everything which hapens has to be documented in a picture? I have no shots of my birth....but I'm preeeetty sure it happend. Maybe it didn't though.....maybe I hatched out of an egg......slithered out of the primordial ooze....good God WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!?!?!?!?!

Oaky, moment of lightness passed.

Seriously, we had the habit of taking pics of every animal that we saw a loooong, long time ago. By the time we realised there was such an interest in hypos, axanthics and tri stripes the moment had passed (you all with kids will know what I'm saying....lots of shots of the first, some of the second, none of the third unless they win the Nobel Peace Prize). As True Blue and others have worn their fingers to the bone typing this over and over have said....they are everywhere. And generally speaking are much better examples of the trait that is found in captivity. Which in some cases isn't so much me talking up the wild types as me talking down the captive ones....


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## zobo (Feb 2, 2009)

hang on a minute isn't one of the favourite sayings on this site 'photos or it didn't happen'?

LOL

I also find it amusing that all these 'morphs' are so common in the wild yet no-one who has seen them has a SINGLE decent pic???

C'mon I've seen more pics of yetis and aliens than I have of wild 'morphs'  LOL


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## Kersten (Feb 2, 2009)

And that saying is exactly the problem at times 

You'll have to excuse the poor quality of the shot as i's really the only one we have, but we took this pic the night before last of an unfortunately deceased "hypo" which is a poorer than the norm example of the "morphs" we find in this area.....but hopefully it'll shed some light on what we're all trying to say here....


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## dee4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Lol what's with the idea that everything which hapens has to be documented in a picture? I have no shots of my birth....but I'm preeeetty sure it happend. Maybe it didn't though.....maybe I hatched out of an egg......slithered out of the primordial ooze....good God WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!?!?!?!?
> 
> technically yes you did:lol:


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## Kersten (Feb 2, 2009)

:lol: Scary thought init?


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## SnakePower (Feb 2, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> SnakePower,-
> no it will also cast doubt over pure darwins as well. You will end up with crosses that look like and tax out to pure darwins but are not. It will end up as a hell of a mess.



If you are right Rob, it really is a shame as I know a lot of breeders will only breed the albinos with other NorthWestern carpet/Darwin stock, including myself. I don't believe in making hybrid or crosses. I only breed within each animals supspecies. Sometimes locality specific, other times not locality specific, but always only pure. To think that the Darwin Albino's will have a cloud of doubt over them at any time is a sad thing indeed! 

Like I said, people have a right to breed whatever they want. Buyer's have the choice to buy from whoever they want. I just hope that the breeders that keep to breeding pure stock are not too affected by those that choose not to. I guess it then comes down to reputation, as that always carries a lot of weight. Which in this case is a very good thing!

Zac.


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## Drazzy (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't get the direction if this thread 

But anyways good luck with the mongrel snakes.


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## Lozza (Feb 2, 2009)

SnakePower said:


> I just hope that the breeders that keep to breeding pure stock are not too affected by those that choose not to. I guess it then comes down to reputation, as that always carries a lot of weight. Which in this case is a very good thing!


 Which would be a shame for new breeders who have not had the chance to establish reputation, even though they possess pure stock


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## megrim (Feb 2, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> ummm ..... thats a contridicting post.... locale morphs are the result of genetics that must (because of the locale aspect) originate in the wild populations, therefore even the extreme locale morph has the possibility to occur naturally in the wild, its just that via selection, we choose to increase the opportunity for these already present genes to be expressed. All in all these animals carry only the genetic material already present in wild populations. Your view seems to revolve around the assumption that all wild type animals are plain... the bumblebee bhp, albino darwin, albino olive, melanistic darwin... are all wild caught animals, and are by definition, wild type animals. Its a concept that seems difficult for people to wrap their heads around.



I'm not arguing that these line bred morphs don't exist in wild populations, what I'm suggesting is that these interestingly morphed animals are a minority. Basic plain animals make up the vast majority. Hence why a 'coastal carpet' is traditionally a simple carpet pattern, and not a double-decker-super-albino-vertical-quadrupal-striped pattern.
I'm trying to point out that really, by line breeding in captivity we're slowly widening the gap between wild caught animals and captive bred animals. 
For us, a unique looking morph means a bit of extra cash, in the wild, more often than not, it means lunch for a hungry kookaburra.

I think the point I was initially trying to make, that I'm not sure you understood, is that line breeding interesting and extreme morphs is just as destructive to those wanting to keep wild-type-looking animals as breeding hybrids, especially with limited access to fresh wild-caught stock.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't know why those snakes are being called mongrels? More like designer carpets. They are clearly in a class of their own. I would be stressed out knowing that they are around too if I had a whole collection of line bred locality animals that don't come near them in the looks department. It would be a shame if people could get mongrel albinos for a fraction of the price of what people are asking for these rare pure locality animals. That would really annoy the people that invested the initial money to purchase these rare beauties. I wonder what would people choose when they have the option to purchase albinoes at a reasonable price instead of these over inflated prices over the last couple of years? Would people really ask that many questions if some of the big guns in the hobby start to suddenly breed very reduced patterned animals? Or wil they just think that they must have bred them because they have a good reputation? They would of course never have animals in their collection that are of dodgy descent? I am just thinking out loud, no need for answers to these questions! I guess the snake world is full of great people with lots of integrity that would never ever break the law. The fact is that most people could not give a stuff about the provenance of an animal if it ticks all the boxes of what they are looking for in a snake! And if it costs less than another one they would not think twice about buying it!


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## MatE (Feb 2, 2009)

Here is one i prepared earlier lol.This is a wild snake that came into contact with a not so native dog,and she has a stripe from head to tail.She was the most placid carpet ive ever held for a wild snake and didnt even defend herself.


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## The Devil (Feb 2, 2009)

Does it really matter if SOME people go down the designer snake track. It's not as if these designer snakes would ever be release into the wild.

Also if most if not all of us had designer snakes just think of how easy it would be for National Parks to identify ones taken from the wild......


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## stuartandconnie (Feb 2, 2009)

*why not*

nar go 4 it


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## megrim (Feb 2, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> I would be stressed out knowing that they are around too if I had a whole collection of line bred locality animals that don't come near them in the looks department.



I'm beginning to think this might be a rather large part of the issue for some people.


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## disasterpiece7.0 (Feb 2, 2009)

I have to say I think there is room for both parties here. You guys that are swearing black and blue by sticking to 100% purity are going to be the ones making money if things do get too far mixed up with hybrid scenes. You'll be the ones with the reputation and you'll be the ones people go to for pure snakes if they're also serious about keeping a pure collection. 

I'm not 100% against hybrids for things like jags. I am however very much against anyone who breed jag - coastal and then sells all the sibs as pure coastal. No-one can be 100% certain about where jags come from except the man himself. I personally would like to see all jag siblings euthanised on hatching. May seem harsh but I see jags as becoming as popular here as in the states etc in good time, For every jag - whatever clutch there will be roughly 50% non jag mongrels. 

I also like my pure animals pure and plan on keeping locality specific and line bred animals of the same subsepcies. I hardly see the point in crossing things with bredli since the red isn't going to show up. Or daimonds and jungles to get average looking diamonds or funny looking jungles. Some may be decent looking but 99% of the times they're inferior to their pure parents. 

As far as the albino situation goes I have to agree with Rob that there will be a shadow of doubt above all albinos carpets in a few years. Again, it'll be people like you guys that will be the only reputable sources for pure albinos. 

Basically I think people just need to keep a good record of where all their animals have come from. If you have a full history of who bred their animals I think we should be able to keep things relatively sorted. I don't think pure animals will go out the window, just need to be extra careful who you're buying from.

Sorry for rambling on.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 2, 2009)

cordylus and megrim, 
Not at all. It dosnt stress me one bit. I just feel sorry for the way the hobby is heading with all this crossing going on and the mess it will create in the future. I also feel sorry for new people getting into the hobby that are trying to keep species pure, as someone said alot of them will have a hard time.
I have a closed collection so it wont affect me at all.
As for sales, except for hypo coastals, bredli and cowley jungles i dont bother with any other morelia forms/sub-species. So it means jack to me.
Most of what i breed is pre-sold before it hatches every year.


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## urodacus_au (Feb 2, 2009)

Looks like some of the big, locale specific breeders might have to look into keeping records of where their snakes are going for the sake of the buyers and themselves. Easy enough for me to whack 'true blue line hypo coastals' on a snake and flog it off if no records have been kept and no one can prove otherwise. How about come certificates of authenticity? :lol:

Locale specific for me, no matter what the taxonomists do i know what i have.
Jordan


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 2, 2009)

urodacus_au said:


> Looks like some of the big, locale specific breeders might have to look into keeping records of where their snakes are going for the sake of the buyers and themselves. Easy enough for me to whack 'true blue line hypo coastals' on a snake and flog it off if no records have been kept and no one can prove otherwise. How about come certificates of authenticity? :lol:
> 
> Locale specific for me, no matter what the taxonomists do i know what i have.
> Jordan



.. then then zee master race for the snake?







Too much line breeding will end up causing the snakes in captivity to become as messed up as pedigree dogs and that will be a great shame especially if you look at how they have changed for the worse over the last 100 years

Sometimes you must let the ugly snakes make love to your good looking snakes as this is what happens in the wild - although I have spoken to a few of your keepers who dont think twice about borrowing a wild snake to mate their females which introduces fresh blood back into the captive gene pool which although most likely is illegal it is maybe not such a bad idea.


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## draqonfly (Feb 2, 2009)

that snake has a nice moustache


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## Southside Morelia (Feb 2, 2009)

SnakePower said:


> I guess it then comes down to reputation, as that always carries a lot of weight. Which in this case is a very good thing!
> 
> Zac.



PMSL......anyone for a "hypo" jungle?? :lol::lol:

Thank god there are still some breeders with credibility and reputation left...that actually do carry some weight. I know for one, i'll buy from them next time!


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## megrim (Feb 2, 2009)

urodacus_au said:


> How about come certificates of authenticity? :lol:



I'm sure there would be numerous problems implementing such a system, but I still think it might be beneficial.

From what I've gathered, this country has had changes as to taxonomy, how accurate and far back do records go in terms of defining what is 'pure' and able to be registered in the first place?, and would the current state-run system make this complicated?


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## pinkmus (Feb 2, 2009)

Lol nice moustache:lol:


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 2, 2009)

pinkmus said:


> Lol nice moustache:lol:



Haben Sie vielen Dank!


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## Kris (Feb 2, 2009)

Phatto1 and Zobo, posts 449 and 457 show a pair of different "morphs" I took the photo of the dead hypo a couple of nights ago. It is just a normal Coastal from around here. Sadly its died from dunlop disease.

MattE, nice snake. Similar to those we find around here too.


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## phatt01 (Feb 2, 2009)

Kris said:


> Phatto1 and Zobo, posts 449 and 457 show a pair of different "morphs" I took the photo of the dead hypo a couple of nights ago. It is just a normal Coastal from around here. Sadly its died from dunlop disease.
> 
> MattE, nice snake. Similar to those we find around here too.


It is sad to see the dreaded dunlop disease, and yes I ahve seen many morphs/hypo's in the wild we get them at home all the time, it's the tri stripes i have never seen in the wild, nor have I seen pics of them in the wild. People always post pics of their snakes they find, wether it benight tigers, bhp's, normal or other coastals, and the list goes on, but never a tri stripe coastal/jungle etc!


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## Kris (Feb 2, 2009)

phatt01 said:


> It is sad to see the dreaded dunlop disease, and yes I ahve seen many morphs/hypo's in the wild we get them at home all the time, it's the tri stripes i have never seen in the wild, nor have I seen pics of them in the wild. People always post pics of their snakes they find, wether it benight tigers, bhp's, normal or other coastals, and the list goes on, but never a tri stripe coastal/jungle etc!




I usually don't post photos on here because I rarely take them. From what you said before I thought you didn't see any "morphs" not just tri stripes. 

Photos of the hypos you've seen or didn't it happen. 

Kris.


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## bigi (Feb 3, 2009)

Hi all,

I have been reading this thread daily from day 1.

I have sat on the fence for most of this, reading, learning, and wondering where I stand on this issue.

The Hybrids we have seen are justifiably beautiful animals as well as the pure forms including line breeding.

I always look at both sides of an argument and try to be open to all people’s comments, before I make a judgment or decision. 

As far as line breeding goes this is all well and good providing no disease or unacceptable traits (e.g. health issues/ genetic issues) are continued and I am sure many people bring in an animal from time to time to provide a mix to the bloodlines providing they are from the same subspecies or locality. 

Unfortunately a hybrid of subspecies or in particular species is a mongrel or muddy as others have put it unless it has occurred naturally in the wild. This is the FACT.

Saying all this I believe it comes down to 1 thing. And this is the character of the person who is breeding these animals.

I would like to draw a similarity to being an Australian, and I will try and explain this best I can in the time I have.

As an Australian I am proud, ozzie ozzie ozzie, oh, oh oh. We are culturally different and I am sure most of you are extremely proud and get goose bumps from time to time when the Aussie anthem is played or if you are overseas and Here I come from a land downunder song comes on and you sing it out aloud and proud.

When it comes to flora and fauna we are unique. We have so many organizations in this country trying to protect wilderness areas we deserve to be protected, i.e. Steve Irwin foundation buying huge chunks of land and protecting it, Animal carers helping bushfire koalas or kangaroos etc, green peace trying to do the global thing, climate change organisations, cleanup Australia day, coral reefs dying, whales being slaughtered by the Japanese, the Amazon or Asian rainforests burning, the poor orangutans loosing their forests, frog species declining at rapid rates, protection of the great white shark, highland gorillas and the list goes on. And what do we normally see. The hard work by others trying to protect this, trying to say to others enough is enough we must protect this. Well this week I heard the highland gorillas have had a bumper year and conceived many babies, how many years and hard work has this been to see an increase of really, just a couple of handfuls.

Well what are they trying to protect? The future for us, our children and our children’s children and so on. Shouldn’t this be the same for our natural Australian wildlife?

I believe it comes down to us, yes you, me, and the person next to you or the bloke on APS you chat with from time to time. We have the responsibility to protect our country’s beliefs.

This leaves us with what do we want to protect in respect to our reptiles in Australia?

I believe we need to respect what is here and protect it. And this includes protecting it from hybridization unless it occurs naturally in the wild. And I don’t want to hear the same old rubbish of, oh they are in captivity. No chance of being in the wild, or how do people loose a python.

I am sure if you all dig deep to what is right for the future, then you would honestly have to say it is, keep it clean as possible as nature intended. Thus bringing us back to the character of the person who is breeding the animal. 

In reflecting upon this, I suppose you need to view what the government (the people we have appointed to protect and govern what we want and expect). Obviously it’s the relevant Wildlife department in your state and/or federal department. We pay licenses for. What? Mainly the import/export or transferring of native animals from or within your state and protection from illegal exports or imports. Why do they license to protect this? To prevent disease and the introduction of pests, which will destroy our natives.

Well throw me down and beat me with a stick because that is exactly what hybridization is. The introduction of species or new subspecies in OUR country. (trying to be patriotic with OUR ) Do the majority of Australians want this? No. Then why is the B.L.O.O.D.Y relevant government department not doing something about this NOW.

You know why? Because we as a community, are sitting back just going with the flow, it will be ok, that is the norm.
Well let me say this. If there was ever a time for all of us to make a stand and say No to this it is NOW. Not in two or five year’s time, by then it will be too big and too many mud bloods out there to stop it. 
If the government departments crack down on this NOW, there is a chance that the majority of our country’s population has its say on where it wants its native animal population to be, whether in captivity or not. 

What we need is for the Herp societies and all other people, including you, me, and those who have been in the industry for many years and in particular a person to stand up and be the spokesperson for the cause. Unless we are heard as a community in mass, it will continue to next year and the year after, and by then unfortunately it will be too late, and we will stand here and say, 



Why wasn’t something more done?



In 7 days since this thread has been started there has been 472 posts and an amazing 19238 views

To the Moderators please do not delete this thread as we live in a country that prides itself on free speech and the ability to debate such an issue.
People who want to contact me and move forward on this, please do so as I believe there is an overwhelming majority and chance to do something now.


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## Drazzy (Feb 3, 2009)

Hey something that makes sense, top bloke bigi.


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## Khagan (Feb 3, 2009)

bigi said:


> Do the majority of Australians want this? No.



APS =/= The majority of Australia.


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## Kurama (Feb 3, 2009)

Not everyone takes a picture of every wild snake they see and post it on a forum a few hours later.

There is no comparison to a wild snake and a designer morph, wild snake is what a snake is supposed to look like, designer morphs are what some people want snakes to look like.

Hybird breeders can predict about the future of the hobby all they want, but who are they fooling?


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## carpetmuncher (Feb 3, 2009)

bigi said:


> I have sat on the fence for most of this, reading, learning, and wondering where I stand on this issue................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

doesn't sound like you were ever sitting on the fence, it's the same old red-neck rhetoric. hate to be the one to break it to you, there is no *cause. *no lynch-mob, no secret meetings, why do people want to put their ethics upon everyone else when their only argument is " i don't like morphs and hybrids"


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 3, 2009)

Whatever happened to freedom of choice?


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## krefft (Feb 3, 2009)

Wow, Bigi. It's good you feel so passionatly about this, as do many who want to keep things pure.This is how you _feel, and it's how many others feel, and that's ok. _

_But I still fail to see why these animals _*need *to be pure. There are different views on what a hybrid is. Does keeping them pure mean thay need to be found within 100 mtrs of each other or just be the same subspecies even though they are hundreds of KM apart? What will you do when someone like Richard Wells comes along and turns carpets into 15 subspecies? 

Captive animals that will never be returned to the wild don't *need* to "pure" whatever that means. Yes many of you like and prefer animals that way, but it's a preference not a necessity.


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## JasonL (Feb 3, 2009)

krefft said:


> Captive animals that will never be returned to the wild don't *need* to "pure" whatever that means. QUOTE]
> 
> Captive animals get returned to the wild all the time, usually through escaping but sometimes un-wanted pets get released, especially when their "worth" goes down and you can't give them away or they are illegally kept and the owner does not want to euthanize them, ie; Red Eared Sliders living in the wilds of the East Coast. Of course the hybrid thing will take off like a rocket, as everyone searchers for morphs that know one else has, to chase the dollars...as it did in the US, then it will bust to a degree, old type "morphs" will be worthless, hard to get rid of... a few will be wandering around the wilds, mating with various natural morelia ect... it is already happening now as carpets from other areas have escaped into new areas, pure brown coastals turn up in bushland around Sydney from time to time...


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## mungus (Feb 3, 2009)

The sad thing is that the exotic's & hybrids are here and here to stay.
Nothing anyone can do about it.
The numbers will grow as our hobby grows - sad fact.
Do we make them illegal to have ? then people will simply breed them behind close doors and eventually form their own groups for swaping and selling, or, do we legalise them and then people will go berserk and breed alsorts of wird and wonderful " things " ??
Either way were screw'd !!!
As ive said before, I like the look of exotic's, some are awesome, but their still EXOTIC'S / HYBRIDS................:|


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## carpetmuncher (Feb 3, 2009)

JasonL said:


> krefft said:
> 
> 
> > Captive animals that will never be returned to the wild don't *need* to "pure" whatever that means. QUOTE]
> ...


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 3, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> i'm gald you noticed!!! i always find it funny that someone with such a biased opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that, can introduce their rhetoric with "i was just sitting on the fence" or "i didn't really have an opinion" or "i'm not a racist, but". btw, bigi's speel is a translation of one of hitler's speeches, not his own work, i'm sure. i think he wants to be the grand wizard of the pure bred lizards (and snakes, of course)



..funny that as that's what had been going through my mind for a while too.

Last thing we need is people like that otherwise us mixed race people also may be sent off to the chambers together with these 'mud blood' bloody mongrel snakes!


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## caustichumor (Feb 3, 2009)

At the moment in the Australian hobby there are 6 sub-species of Morelia that get called carpet pythons (not including Bredli) And among those 6 groups are dozens of recognised localities which have been maintained by fastideous keepers, We are lucky to have such a wide variety of animals in the one group to choose from. I would like my kids to grow up and still have a similar variety available to them. However I don't see that happening, with the direction the hobby seems to be taking, It will be a shame to loose some of the unique (yet subtle) differances that make it such a wide and variable group. And I know the arguement that there is room in the hobby for both, But I don't see how? once the lines are crossed they can't simply be crossed back, and the inevitable backyard hybrid breeding bonanza will explode, People will realise in time that most of these hybrids are actually not that special, There will be some stunning hybrids but for each stand out, there will be a dozen average animals that end up in the hands of novice keepers, and inevitably bred to whatever else is physically able to get a leg over in genetic terms.
In all the American forums, do you think the hybrid photo's displayed are an average representation of a clutch? 
And we are not talking about hybrids escaping into the wild, Or animals escaping and polluting the blood of areas outside it's range. Valid points but have nothing to do with the deliberate hybridization of Morelia in Captivity (in Australia).


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## JasonL (Feb 3, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> JasonL said:
> 
> 
> > but what's the relevence of escapees, if they are 'pure' animals they will still 'hybridise' with the local animals, so what you would have to ask the authorities to do, would be licence people to only hold animals from their immediate locality. great move forward.
> ...


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## solar 17 (Feb 3, 2009)

*exotic / hybrid directions*

This is a casual observation, on exotics / hybrids [whatever]...for the last 10 years at least we have been following the avicultural [birds] [caged] to such an exact degree lts not funny [our direction ls about 3-4 years behind them] what with imports illegal entries and final exceptance...like lt or not there are huge numbers of exotic reptiles here already....personally l find this paralell to birds unbelievable ....but have a look what birds most pet shops / birdkeepers are selling......these are factual observations not my personal opinion....cheers solar 17 [Baden]


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 3, 2009)

Love your post bigi, and I was not even born Australian.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 3, 2009)

on the topic of money i would love it if a whole heap of native herps went cheap i could have all the animals i want so what if you cant make a killing off it dont most people get into this hooby cuz they are into herps not to make the dollars.there are better ways to make a liveing anyway.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 3, 2009)

Protect wild populations. This is what should be the number one priority! Captive animals ar lost to that gene pool. No matter what the experts say on this site, as soon as there is human selection involved then they are worthless and can not be returned. Maybe people should start reading more about the protocol behind capture and release projects of wild animals, out of books. Not stuff that has been written by self proclaiming experts on reptile forums. But actual scientific studies. The Australian government will never allow captive snakes with no history to be released back into the wild. Maybe some of Daves animals will be ok as he knows exactly where they originated from. The government is paranoid since all their good fortunes with introducing species. People mention gorillas, Walea and god knows what else! But their main threat is habitat destruction. Not anything else. Stop building roads and holiday homes in Queensland! All these things kill reptiles. Stop driving cars. Don't keep snakes anymore as this fuels poaching. These are things that will ensure wild populations to flourish. Not anything in the hobby will have a bigger effect on wild numbers than these. This will ensure the future of all reptile species. 90% of all pythons in Australian collections ancestry can not be traced to where they were collected. All you can do is rate them by appearance. And people that can tell you where they were collected did so illegally. Except for a few with collectors licences. These Legally collected animals are the lines that can and have to be protected. By not being line bred or being tampered with in any way. These are the things that can be controlled! Have a stud book like zoos where information can be stored to ensure unrelated animals are bred together. And this means even the ugly ones. Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.


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## chenobi (Feb 3, 2009)

i didn't think you were allowed to cross breed ? I thought the EPA deemed it illegal?


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## ivonavich (Feb 3, 2009)

Have been reading this thread one a day to day basis... Very educational and entertaining. A good example of why internet forums are a good thing - lots of open debate on a current topic. Thankyou.

As for my opinion. I prob won't go out of my way to buy a designer snake. I think as spectacular as some are there are some real beautiful aussie natives. That said I don't look down on others for the practice of cross-breeding. Each to his own.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 3, 2009)

Very well said Cordylus, 
alot of debate on this thread has been related to the safety of wild populations. One argument people have been stating against hybrids, is the possibility of people in the future discarding or releasing unfashionable designer snakes into the wild. This is a fair concern, however it is no different if people were to discard ugly Bredli, maculosus or metcalfei into or outside of their natural range, all captive animals no matter their origin or species, pose a legitimate threat to wild populations. 
It is not undesirable or unfashionable animals that will cause people to potentially release or discard animals, Like Jason L said it is the decrease in demand.
I think that anyone (ourselves included) who wishes to produce designer animals, need to take care with who we trade our animals too and also give correct and honest ancestry of the animals. I for one will honour this, as I understand the purists concern that lines potentially could become clouded. But there will always be some keepers outhere maintaining clean lines and yes I think clean lines will become more desirable in the future because of designer snakes.

However, at the end of the day, all reptiles in captivity are *just pets* and no more. Anyones so-called breeding program or locale specific program is only as good as the next person that buys the offspring. *Like I said, they are just pets*.




Cordylus said:


> Protect wild populations. This is what should be the number one priority! Captive animals ar lost to that gene pool. No matter what the experts say on this site, as soon as there is human selection involved then they are worthless and can not be returned. Maybe people should start reading more about the protocol behind capture and release projects of wild animals, out of books. Not stuff that has been written by self proclaiming experts on reptile forums. But actual scientific studies. The Australian government will never allow captive snakes with no history to be released back into the wild. Maybe some of Daves animals will be ok as he knows exactly where they originated from. The government is paranoid since all their good fortunes with introducing species. People mention gorillas, Walea and god knows what else! But their main threat is habitat destruction. Not anything else. Stop building roads and holiday homes in Queensland! All these things kill reptiles. Stop driving cars. Don't keep snakes anymore as this fuels poaching. These are things that will ensure wild populations to flourish. Not anything in the hobby will have a bigger effect on wild numbers than these. This will ensure the future of all reptile species. 90% of all pythons in Australian collections ancestry can not be traced to where they were collected. All you can do is rate them by appearance. And people that can tell you where they were collected did so illegally. Except for a few with collectors licences. These Legally collected animals are the lines that can and have to be protected. By not being line bred or being tampered with in any way. These are the things that can be controlled! Have a stud book like zoos where information can be stored to ensure unrelated animals are bred together. And this means even the ugly ones. Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.


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## caustichumor (Feb 3, 2009)

I love the hybridizers all trying to placate purists by claiming pure animals prices will go up after they have finished making the morelia milkshake....


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## WombleHerp (Feb 3, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> I love the hybridizers all trying to placate purists by claiming pure animals prices will go up after they have finished making the morelia milkshake....


 
and what a great tasting milkshake that is :lol:


Nat  x


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## Kersten (Feb 3, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> I love the hybridizers all trying to placate purists by claiming pure animals prices will go up after they have finished making the morelia milkshake....


I can't figure out if I like that one or the one about how it's all just a matter of personal opinion and nothing they do affects anyone else best.


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## Southside Morelia (Feb 3, 2009)

ivonavich said:


> Have been reading this thread one a day to day basis... Very educational and entertaining. A good example of why internet forums are a good thing - lots of open debate on a current topic. Thankyou.
> 
> As for my opinion. I prob won't go out of my way to buy a designer snake. I think as spectacular as some are there are some real beautiful aussie natives. That said I don't look down on others for the practice of cross-breeding. Each to his own.



I agree whole heartidly....BUT designer snakes can still be pure ie line bred for specific traits.
Again each to their own as far as hybrid/pure..it's more offensive in a democratic society (providing it's LEGAL) to let others tell you what you can and can't do.... that is the roots of the issue ..IMO.


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 3, 2009)

Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.

Haha ... therein lies the trick question "The wisdom to know the difference"

Cheers
Sandee


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## BT (Feb 3, 2009)

personally, i hate designer snakes in general (hybrid or not), and dont believe i will ever own one, i prefer snakes that are like a wild type animal, the ones most call "crap" and "plain" are the ones i prefer, probably the only one with this opinion,I like herps for the thrill of owning them, even if they were not worth any money i would still keep and breed them,
BT


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## Southside Morelia (Feb 3, 2009)

LMAO Sandee..
Too true grasshopper..... 
But unfortunately, my observation IMO, is what I have experienced and what I have expressed in my post!



Bredlislave said:


> Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.
> 
> Haha ... therein lies the trick question "The wisdom to know the difference"
> 
> ...


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## Schlumpe (Feb 3, 2009)

Perhaps the next step is “Genetically Modified Snakes” so they can grow legs . . .


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## krefft (Feb 3, 2009)

Well done to both sides of the fence. 500 posts and only 7 deletions amongst them. Healthy debate is a good thing when it remains civil, though probably very few people have been swayed from their initial feeling on the subject.


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## edgewing (Feb 3, 2009)

Being in the early days of this hobby, I can't really say what I want apart from Australian snakes (I like them). That is the reason I came into the hobby and this is probably where I'll stay.

Although some of those little dragons can be pretty moreish


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## tempest (Feb 3, 2009)

I haven't read the entire thread, nowhere close to it actually. I think they are beautiful looking snakes, taking them on face value, regardless of what they are. What I do want to ask, and excuse me if it's already been asked, but why, QLDMORELIAS, did you first lay claim to them being a mate's line and then later claim that they were something you were working on together? Is it because less people were opposed to them than you originally thought? Why not just be upfront from the start? Again, sorry if this is off topic or has been asked before... 34 pages is way too many pages to read, I only got to as far as about page 10. Just wondering


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## QldMorelias (Feb 3, 2009)

The photo's are a mates line,and they are his animals. However there are a number of us working with siblings.
I thought only a small group would be against them, and that has proven to be the case. There have been tons of requests for any offspring that we produce, and we'll probably have surplus animals next season. I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about. Every one of us are breeding animals for the pet industry. Many won't like that statement but it's the truth. All the animals bred by amature herpetologists and swapped or sold are purely for pets. They hold no importance for wild populations. Some like to feel they are in it for a nobler cause, and maybe they are, but the animals they hold in private collections are not part of it. If you live in a state where it is legal and you want to produce designer animals go for it and good luck. If it's illegal in your state bad luck, you need to change the laws. 
I have enjoyed the impassioned pleas from some of the purists. None have yet mentioned the spirit of the ANZAC's as a reason not to hybridise but they have come pretty close. Seriously.


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## Kris (Feb 3, 2009)

holy smokes Batman.........Supermans identity may have been blown.


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## Vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

Kris said:


> holy smokes Batman.........Supermans identity may have been blown.


 
:lol: Settle down I won't have much room in my sig soon for more funny quotes.


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## Kris (Feb 4, 2009)

I'll see what I can do.


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## Kersten (Feb 4, 2009)

Vix, I'll say this just once. Please don't encourage him, he's hard enough to live with now.

Greebo it's okay, we can live with a little mystery (not that it's much of one) at least now as he rides off into the night we can still turn to eachother and say "Who was that masked man?".


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

Shenanigans??
Greebo, your half right, no not half, your partly right. I have quite a complex personality, you could almost call me schizophrenic. So to keep columbo and the lynchmob at bay the executive committee took a vote and decided to allow a group photo. 
We hope this sign of good faith with end the speculation and allow us to get on with the business of debating the merits of crossing your subspecies. 
Remember kids, they are never, ever going back in the wild so it really doesn't make much difference does it.


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## Vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> they are never, ever going back in the wild so it really doesn't make much difference does it.


 
That is not the point in the slightest.. 

What I am worried about is goons that will, yes WILL, not might, label these snakes as pure. They then get sold on some unsuspecting person, who then breeds them with their actually pure animal, then they get sold again and bred, etc etc, and the mess is just going to get deeper and deeper.

Its already been proven that there is no honesty where hybrids are involved, just look over thread again.


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## ihaveherps (Feb 4, 2009)

lol.... Vixen, all the vehement denials when asked about this alias were bull-dust.... the rest of the drivel they posted should be taken in the same vein.... not worth the bandwidth....


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## natrix (Feb 4, 2009)

It's funny this whole hybrid/crossing thing & I sorta feel like I should care, but I really don't give a toss what people cross with what . I thought I was a fence-sitter but I can't even find the fence . Cross 'em , fine . Don't cross 'em , fine.
I don't plan on doing it myself though.


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## Khagan (Feb 4, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> That is not the point in the slightest..
> 
> What I am worried about is goons that will, yes WILL, not might, label these snakes as pure. They then get sold on some unsuspecting person, who then breeds them with their actually pure animal, then they get sold again and bred, etc etc, and the mess is just going to get deeper and deeper.
> 
> Its already been proven that there is no honesty where hybrids are involved, just look over thread again.



If one was truely concerned about the purity of an animal would they not just seek out legal wild caught locality specific animals, or an extremely reputable breeder with stock tracing directly back to wild caught animals from the same location?

I mean it's down to peoples own common sense, if your after a 100% pure animal and just go with Mr. Random Joe rather than some reliable option it's only your own fault. It's probably a bad example, but same with dogs.. If your after a pure bred do you source out something with papers or go to a backyard breeder with no proof?


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## chilli (Feb 4, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> There have been tons of requests for any offspring that we produce, and we'll probably have surplus animals next season.




i think this is the basis of the thread. a lot has been said about the honesty of breeders and being forthright with the truth when it comes to selling 'hybrids'. are we going to see that with these animals, i mean, are they being sold as jags, being the progeny of smuggled animals, or are they being sold as ( ha ha ha ) reduced pattern hybrids. some won't care, but on the issue of credibility, this whole thread's purpose seems to be," let everyone know jags are here, we'll call them something else and hide under a veil of secrecy, we'll say we might have the animals in nsw,qld or nt (so as to be real vague about the jurisdictional location of them) and then we'll put them on the market.... hope we fool customs".

i know customs and npws seem not to care about smuggled animals, and this probably encourages smugglers as it has with gtp's, but isn't this thread facilitating this sham? 

it is funny how much effort and money the federal government puts into exotic birds, where the numbers being smuggled is but fraction of the number of reptiles, and the amount of money involved is miniscule in comparison.


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## m.punja (Feb 4, 2009)

Khagan said:


> If one was truely concerned about the purity of an animal would they not just seek out legal wild caught locality specific animals, or an extremely reputable breeder with stock tracing directly back to wild caught animals from the same location?
> 
> I mean it's down to peoples own common sense, if your after a 100% pure animal and just go with Mr. Random Joe rather than some reliable option it's only your own fault. It's probably a bad example, but same with dogs.. If your after a pure bred do you source out something with papers or go to a backyard breeder with no proof?


 
wild caughts aren't that easy to get and not all species are available wild caught. It will come down to more selection while purchasing, you'll have to do more homework and ensure the honesty of the seller but it will ruin the market for those who are unknow (all those people who have put themselves in a position to be breeding pure bred lines over the next few seasons will have to struggle even harder to get a name for themselves) and will cause even more doubt over pure bred morphs such as the stripped diamonds.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Feb 4, 2009)

I, like so many others, have have been watching this thread since it's inception. Wow, who needs to watch 'Home and Away'! 

As this topic has been done to death so many times since I joined up (forgot to mention, I just passed my one year anniversary of being an Aussie reptile keeper, Happy Anniversary Azza!) I'd like to refer back to the only thread IMO that represents a fair and balanced view to the actual divisions on the lines of to hybrid or not to hybrid. The sticky post poll from NCHERPS at the top of the Australian Snakes section.

The poll is still open and the numbers say it all:

513 votes.
49.71% against crossing.
50.29% for crossing.

Of course, this poll is representative of APS members only and not the herp community at large or the general population who may or may not ever keep a python. I have made a funny observation in my time here. This 50/50 split is very remnicient of the division inside the American political system. On one side you have the conservatives, very vocal, very aggressive in pursuing the agenda they support. "NO" to change, if you are not with us you are with the terrorists, etc. On the other hand, you have the liberals. Often mousy, side line sitters, extremely difficult to drag into a 'duke it out, knock down kind of fight'. Belief system is as strong as the conservative side but tends to demonstrate more flexible views and opinions.

I have always found it funny how people can get so caught up in bickering about minutae and form long lasting divisions and prejudices, both against others' beliefs as well as against individuals themselves. That's funny wierd, not funny haha. Oh well, that's life.

In conclusion, I stand by my original assertion that I think the snakes in the original post are spectacular specimens. My opinion on the subject of hybrids (incase somene gives a rats), you are free to choose. I'm stoked that so many people are obsessive over the issue of purity. It is comforting to know that there are many people on here you can get animals from that you can trust in what you are getting. My own breeding collection is locality specific (I bought all my snakes from lines of the very people who have posted in this thread, the more conservative side) and will remain that way. I have nothing against mongrels though, I am one. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you buy hybrids, then Al'Qaeda wins.

P.S. Hey Rob, that reduced pattern, hypo olive I got from ya is coming up on one year with me now. Growing like a weed, now well over 4 feet and hands down best character of the lot, thanks!


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## Kersten (Feb 4, 2009)

Khagan said:


> If one was truely concerned about the purity of an animal would they not just seek out legal wild caught locality specific animals, or an extremely reputable breeder with stock tracing directly back to wild caught animals from the same location?
> 
> I mean it's down to peoples own common sense, if your after a 100% pure animal and just go with Mr. Random Joe rather than some reliable option it's only your own fault. It's probably a bad example, but same with dogs.. If your after a pure bred do you source out something with papers or go to a backyard breeder with no proof?



Mmmmm because finding a) locale specific everything and b) honest breeders is a walk in the park. Reputation means bugger all really. All you need to fake one of them if your a dishonest breeder apparently is a few fellow troglodytes....oops I meant acolytes who are ready to sing your praises long and loud. Funny thing is that those same friends usually end up just as burnt as the average joe, but by then the damage is done and the "reputation" is created. 

Unfortunately it all comes down to trial and error and that usually means wasting a few dollars one animals that aren't what they're supposed to be.


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## Oldbeard (Feb 4, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> Protect wild populations. This is what should be the number one priority! Captive animals ar lost to that gene pool. No matter what the experts say on this site, as soon as there is human selection involved then they are worthless and can not be returned. Maybe people should start reading more about the protocol behind capture and release projects of wild animals, out of books. Not stuff that has been written by self proclaiming experts on reptile forums. But actual scientific studies. The Australian government will never allow captive snakes with no history to be released back into the wild. Maybe some of Daves animals will be ok as he knows exactly where they originated from. The government is paranoid since all their good fortunes with introducing species. People mention gorillas, Walea and god knows what else! But their main threat is habitat destruction. Not anything else. Stop building roads and holiday homes in Queensland! All these things kill reptiles. Stop driving cars. Don't keep snakes anymore as this fuels poaching. These are things that will ensure wild populations to flourish.


 
Not to mention cane toads, anyone who is serious about saving our wildlife should be out ther joining forces to get rid of them


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## Khagan (Feb 4, 2009)

m.punja said:


> wild caughts aren't that easy to get and not all species are available wild caught. It will come down to more selection while purchasing, you'll have to do more homework and ensure the honesty of the seller but it will ruin the market for those who are unknow (all those people who have put themselves in a position to be breeding pure bred lines over the next few seasons will have to struggle even harder to get a name for themselves) and will cause even more doubt over pure bred morphs such as the stripped diamonds.



Obviously you can't get wild caught for everything and they aren't easy to get, but if your really serious about wanting pure then you would go to every length to ensure it is. The only reason it would make it harder for people to make a name or make people doubt pure morphs is awareness of people being for hybrids. The chance of it being a hybrid would still be the same really, who's to say people haven't already made hybrids and passed them off as just some other variation in the carpets and no one be the wiser purely because it wouldn't be thought of?




Kersten said:


> Mmmmm because finding a) locale specific everything and b) honest breeders is a walk in the park. Reputation means bugger all really. All you need to fake one of them if your a dishonest breeder apparently is a few fellow troglodytes....oops I meant acolytes who are ready to sing your praises long and loud. Funny thing is that those same friends usually end up just as burnt as the average joe, but by then the damage is done and the "reputation" is created.
> 
> Unfortunately it all comes down to trial and error and that usually means wasting a few dollars one animals that aren't what they're supposed to be.



Obviously it's not easy but again.. If people are SERIOUS about wanting pure why wouldn't they be prepaired to put in the extra yards to find it?


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 4, 2009)

m.punja said:


> wild caughts aren't that easy to get and not all species are available wild caught. It will come down to more selection while purchasing, you'll have to do more homework and ensure the honesty of the seller but it will ruin the market for those who are unknow (all those people who have put themselves in a position to be breeding pure bred lines over the next few seasons will have to struggle even harder to get a name for themselves) and will cause even more doubt over pure bred morphs such as the stripped diamonds.



What bloody planet are you from ?

I may be just a bloody tourist but when I was in Cairns in November I managed to catch 4 snakes (a scrubby, a jungle, a spotted and a brown tree) on a short drive up the Morris Dam rd one evening.

If its Australian and if its wild then its availability will never be an issue; the legality of its availability on the other hand is another story altogether but knowing what I know I don't honestly think that is really an issue for the odd one or two amongst you especially if you are only borrowing them for an evening or two to get jiggy with one of your lady pythons.


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## Colin (Feb 4, 2009)

diamondgeeza said:


> What bloody planet are you from ?
> 
> I may be just a bloody tourist but when I was in Cairns in November I managed to catch 4 snakes (a scrubby, a jungle, a spotted and a brown tree) on a short drive up the Morris Dam rd one evening.
> 
> If its Australian and if its wild then its availability will never be an issue; the legality of its availability on the other hand is another story altogether but knowing what I know I don't honestly think that is really an issue for the odd one or two amongst you especially if you are only borrowing them for an evening or two to get jiggy with one of your lady pythons.




yes we all know that you can go out and illegally take wild animals...
but that's not really an option that should even be considered in my opinion..


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## Kersten (Feb 4, 2009)

Khagan said:


> Obviously it's not easy but again.. If people are SERIOUS about wanting pure why wouldn't they be prepaired to put in the extra yards to find it?



Hmmmm I don't know how to put this any more coherantly than I already have. It's not about effort. It's not about research and hard yards and serious intent. From what's been said here, the one of the hybrid breeders own arguments in favour of their cause is that if people want pure, they can get pure and all that's required is an honest breeder. And yet....do you have any idea of the number of times people are sold animals which aren't what they are supposed to be? And furthermore, why should people have to fork out extra money to buy a jungle, or a carpet or a whatever they're after because the only way to ensure that they're getting what they've asked for is to buy from someone who is magically able to prove that every single descendant of the animal purchased is what it should be....how can someone even prove that without having videotaped themselves taking the critters from the wild? Are you kidding me? If a person goes and forks out the big bucks and buys a faberge egg, is given a gurantee and the egg is a fake they've a legal recourse available to them to have the matter rectified and they get their money back. Apparently if I ask for a Childreni and it turns out the genetic pool is so polluted it's a mudbath I need to cop it on the chin and kiss my dollars goodbye. Not only that, but if I've not realised my mistake until after I've bred from it and sold offspring as pure then I've contributed to the problem I'm striving to avoid.

Sorry Khagan, I'm not insinuating your the problem here....I just started and couldn't stop lol. Hope I've made my reasoning clearer than it was.


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## viridis (Feb 4, 2009)

*The real future of Aussie Reptile Keeping*

The direction of the Australian hobby can not be based on APS's measly 2500 members. All we can go off is other countries that are years and years ahead in every aspect of the hobby with opinions based on hundreds of thousands of keepers.

 It will be fortunate for many and unfortunate for many more but Hybrid Morphs and Designer pure species animals are the way of the future. This is not a few die hard keepers opinion but the reality of the entire world’s leading reptile breeders.

The typical Aussie's (me included) opinion of a hybrid is a Diamond x Bredli ect. Technically, yes it is a Hybrid. To me it is Mulga food after it has been defrosted from the freezer.

A jag on other hands, well to me that’s an entire different kettle of fish. In actual fact, a Jag (especially the animals available in Australia) is even more of a Hybrid as we have no real idea what is in them. Obviously they have the strong jag gene coming through but what mixed locale yank bred Carpet have they be crossed with prior? Who knows ??? They are so far different to anything ever produced in Australia and they can never be misrepresented for anything else as they are far too spectacular looking.

The majority of people who seem to be up in arms about these ''Hybrids'' are the keepers who have plain, species specific collections made up of wild caught stock with very little or no line breeding in place.

To some keepers making money from reptiles is irrelevant, to some it is the only reason why they got into the hobby as they were all going to make a million dollars from herps, and to others (myself included) they take the good times with the bad. i.e. - aim to produce the best quality animals and in low market times like the current situation, get over the money side of things and either grow the animal up or sell them cheap.

In times of financial hardship like what Australia is experiencing now, only top of the line animals will be quick to sell.

My idea of sales in Australian herps is a follows;

 A standard Jungle - Pure Locale or not, will only sell for a very minimal amount $250 - $350 each.

 Then you will get genuine, line bred morph animals that still get a top price but will take a while to sell as they appeal to a smaller percentage of the market. $500- $800 each

You will then get an even smaller area of people flogging crap looking snakes as new morphs- ie ''Hypo Striped Jungles'' - $600 each. These are just crap coloured snakes that never colour up and only naive, new buyers purchase these animals.

The final area or Carpet sale in Australia this season are the dastardly Reduced Pattern Jag s and Jag look a likes. .These animals are still fetching up to $2500 each but have a limited sales area. People want Jags but don’t want to get caught with smuggled animals or they want Jag look a likes but are unsure of whether they will take off.

Like it or loath it, the general public have just witnessed the start of the Hybrid Morphs becoming mainstream. 

We as private keepers now have one of four main decisions to make;

a) Jump on the band wagon in the race to establish Designer Lines with no species being sacred

b) Keep breeding species pure lines for the future swing back to pure animals (approx 15 years away if it ever happens)

c) Keep an open mind and buy what we like when it become available at a reasonable price

d) Sell most of your collection and only keep your favourite species. You now realise that Hybrids are the way of the future and you personally will never jump on that bandwagon. You then jump ship before you are left producing 250 pure animals a year that will get harder and harder to sell as time goes on and these spectacular looking Hybrids become the norm. (Just wait...that’s me thinking out loud of what I did late last year) 

Too all of the people that claimed to have seen a double hypo, super, tri striped tiger jag look alike in the wild then let’s see some pics. Any person in their right mind would photograph any animal that resembled the founder Jag and most would keep it for themselves.

These are some pure Jungles and North westerns that we produced and have since sold due to direct competition from Jags.


















Nice looking snakes QLD Morelia’s and I am sure they will out sell many pure species.

Cheers,

Nick Stock


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## caustichumor (Feb 4, 2009)

diamondgeeza said:


> What bloody planet are you from ?
> 
> I may be just a bloody tourist but when I was in Cairns in November I managed to catch 4 snakes (a scrubby, a jungle, a spotted and a brown tree) on a short drive up the Morris Dam rd one evening.
> 
> If its Australian and if its wild then its availability will never be an issue; the legality of its availability on the other hand is another story altogether but knowing what I know I don't honestly think that is really an issue for the odd one or two amongst you especially if you are only borrowing them for an evening or two to get jiggy with one of your lady pythons.



Great idea and we can stop all these financial problems in the world by printing more money
You have summed it up perfectly there, Once the captive Morelia stock is obliterated into an obscure singular species, we can just get some more fresh stock:lol: (or infect the native population with some pathagen after utilizing them for breeding) And you can be sure that is what would happen, why would captive animals that have been kept pure go up in value? When such wonderful moraly upstanding people would just help themselves to wild animals (all in the sake of helping the hobby of course)


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## Khagan (Feb 4, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Hmmmm I don't know how to put this any more coherantly than I already have. It's not about effort. It's not about research and hard yards and serious intent. From what's been said here, the one of the hybrid breeders own arguments in favour of their cause is that if people want pure, they can get pure and all that's required is an honest breeder. And yet....do you have any idea of the number of times people are sold animals which aren't what they are supposed to be? And furthermore, why should people have to fork out extra money to buy a jungle, or a carpet or a whatever they're after because the only way to ensure that they're getting what they've asked for is to buy from someone who is magically able to prove that every single descendant of the animal purchased is what it should be....how can someone even prove that without having videotaped themselves taking the critters from the wild? Are you kidding me? If a person goes and forks out the big bucks and buys a faberge egg, is given a gurantee and the egg is a fake they've a legal recourse available to them to have the matter rectified and they get their money back. Apparently if I ask for a Childreni and it turns out the genetic pool is so polluted it's a mudbath I need to cop it on the chin and kiss my dollars goodbye. Not only that, but if I've not realised my mistake until after I've bred from it and sold offspring as pure then I've contributed to the problem I'm striving to avoid.
> 
> Sorry Khagan, I'm not insinuating your the problem here....I just started and couldn't stop lol. Hope I've made my reasoning clearer than it was.



Yeah i get that much, but even without hybrids coming popular the possibility is still there all that's changing is the awareness of what your buying could possibly be a hybrid. I guess what i'm saying is people kick up so much fuss about "keeping it pure" but unless they have wild caught locality specific how can they really be sure their animals are pure? Do they have any proof? Or is EVERYONES animals that aren't wild caught/direct from wild caught just going off of good judgement and nothing more, therefor really making no difference in the end.


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## Kersten (Feb 4, 2009)

Khagan....that's exactly the problem. Mybridising has made figuring out what's what harder than nailing jelly to a wall.

For all those who keep banging on about pics or it didn't happen....how would one then prove that the pic they'd take was of wild animal and not from a collection? I'm betting the minute someone whacks up a wild tri stripe they got shot down on the basis they can't prove it's actually wild.


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## Kyro (Feb 4, 2009)

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-herps/tonights-visitor-101680?highlight=visitor
Perfect example, although not the greatest stripes it is stripey so people immediately presume it's escaped. No offence intended to anyone just pointing out how limited some peoples experiences are with wild pythons, myself included


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## phatt01 (Feb 4, 2009)

Most have seen striped coastals in the wild, and most post pics of them, but everyone (as it seems) has seen Tri striped coastals, in the wild but never post pics of them!!!!


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## phatt01 (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats right I forgot, if someone posts a pic of a tri striped coastal the will get flamed, on the basis of not being able to prove it is a wild animal, but that would only apply to a Tri stipe of course


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 4, 2009)

Careful guys there's always microchipping and dna sampling to prove "purity"
surely we don't want to go there ????


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## Snake_Whisperer (Feb 4, 2009)

Wow Nick, great post and even nicer snakes! Yep, I'll have to go with the open mind. All the foaming at the mouth and arm waving in the world will not stop individuals from wanting extraordinary and UNIQUE animals.


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 4, 2009)

Bredlislave said:


> Careful guys there's always microchipping and dna sampling to prove "purity"
> surely we don't want to go there ????



Oh I forgot to add "compulsory" the EPA were considering this years ago


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## Kersten (Feb 4, 2009)

I think you'll find it applies to a lot of things phatt01  The post before with the striped-ish wild carpet proved that the immediate thought (at least for some) is, it can't be wild


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## Ishah (Feb 4, 2009)

krefft said:


> It's great to see everyone adopting a live and let live approach on the subject. Or maybe both camps have just given up trying to win people to their way of thinking.
> And finally some pictures. *I bought this first guy on AHC off a breeder in Qld*. I got 3 but the other 2 are nowhere near as good.
> *The second photo was given to me as a Murry Darling??!* So I guess that make's it a Muddymongrelmutt, but it's also pretty hot. *I will be breeding her with something next season.* Yes, and I will sell the offspring as Muddymongrelmutts if your interested.


 
Would love to know what the first one (and its siblings) got sold to you as! If the second was sold as a MD!:shock:

(P.S. For those who can't be stuffed looking for the post to see the pics again, or those who missed it... its post #397 http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/1368548-post397 )



VixenBabe said:


> That is not the point in the slightest..
> 
> What I am worried about is *goons that will, yes WILL,* not might, *label these snakes as pure. They then get sold on some unsuspecting person, who then breeds them with their actually pure animal, *then they get sold again and bred, etc etc, and the mess is just going to get deeper and deeper.
> 
> Its already been *proven that there is no honesty where hybrids are involved*, just look over thread again.


 
Exactly, krefft being sold that snake as an MD is proof its happening and there is no honesty! Krefft also states that he will be breeding it with *something*, be it a pure snake or a hybrid...hence the "unsuspecting buyer" aka krefft in this case, is going to breed it and the cycle will continue...:? Krefft may be selling them for what they are, but who is to say that the next person will do the same? There are too many dishonest people in this world to ensure it happens...



Kersten said:


> Hmmmm I don't know how to put this any more coherantly than I already have. It's not about effort. It's not about research and hard yards and serious intent. From what's been said here, the one of the hybrid breeders own arguments in favour of their cause is that if people want pure, they can get pure and all that's required is an honest breeder. And yet....*do you have any idea of the number of times people are sold animals which aren't what they are supposed to be?* And furthermore, why should people have to fork out extra money to buy a jungle, or a carpet or a whatever they're after because the only way to ensure that they're getting what they've asked for is to buy from someone who is magically able to prove that every single descendant of the animal purchased is what it should be....how can someone even prove that without having videotaped themselves taking the critters from the wild? Are you kidding me? If a person goes and forks out the big bucks and buys a faberge egg, is given a gurantee and the egg is a fake they've a legal recourse available to them to have the matter rectified and they get their money back. Apparently if I ask for a Childreni and it turns out the genetic pool is so polluted it's a mudbath I need to cop it on the chin and kiss my dollars goodbye. Not only that, but if I've not realised my mistake until after I've bred from it and sold offspring as pure then I've contributed to the problem I'm striving to avoid.
> 
> Sorry Khagan, I'm not insinuating your the problem here....I just started and couldn't stop lol. Hope I've made my reasoning clearer than it was.


 
I really don't think I want to know:shock:



Khagan said:


> Obviously you can't get wild caught for everything and they aren't easy to get, but if your really serious about wanting pure then you would go to every length to ensure it is. The only reason it would make it harder for people to make a name or make people doubt pure morphs is awareness of people being for hybrids. The chance of it being a hybrid would still be the same really, *who's to say people haven't already made hybrids and passed them off as just some other variation in the carpets and no one be the wiser purely because it wouldn't be thought of?*


 
Khagan, 

As you can see from the above posts...Krefft got sold an obvious hybrid as PURE which is what Vixen and many others are worried about! It is ALREADY happening! And those animals *are* and do have breeding schedules of sorts... THIS IS WHAT WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT!!!! Amongst many other things of course.... It doesn't just boil down to one reason that we are against it! There are many contributing factors at play here!

And what about all the new people to the hobby/world of reptiles who don't know any better? Who get their snakes off any random breeder just to have a snake or whatever? All the (new) people who don't do their research before buying a reptile and don't know their needs because they just want a snake and want it now! etc etc...? They wont have the slightest clue! Let alone the knowledge about hybrids and pures or any other morph until its too late a few years later...They will have no knowledge of hybrids and the threats they bring and they will most likely go on to breed these hybrids with pures etc etc and the damn cycle continues! Get what I am trying to say? Like Kersten said, I'm *positive* its happening a LOT and most would be all these unsuspecting new people to the hobby that are the "direct" victims of these idiots that are just in it to make a quick buck and fob off all their "ugly" hybrids (and keep the "good ones" to sell for even MORE) to these new and eager owners (cheaply I'd imagine...depends how money hungry the seller is) who just want a snake no matter what it is...

It seriously is NOT worth it! Why add the cloud of doubt to this hobby as well just for a few "awesome" Hybrid snakes? Seriously....

Yes, I know I'm just banging my head up against a brick wall...:? but maybe all "our purist" opinions and views may shed light for some of those fence-sitters giving them enough to decide? Who knows....

(Probably why this debate and thread has gone on for so long....each side trying to sway the fence-sitters:?....Just thinking out loud, so don't quote me on that:lol


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## TrueBlue (Feb 4, 2009)

Nick,- 
no offence, but most of what you said in your post is rubbish. Plain and simple.!! Just an inacurate opinion.
Plus if you havnt seen stripped carpets in the wild, you and alot of other people, definitely need to get out more.


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## Lewy (Feb 4, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Nick,-
> no offence, but most of what you said in your post is rubbish. Plain and simple.!! Just an inacurate opinion.
> Plus if you havnt seen stripped carpets in the wild, you and alot of other people, definitely need to get out more.


 

ROFL well said TB


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## Jet_1 (Feb 4, 2009)

I think that eventually there will be a similar recognition for morphs ( or what ever you want to call them) as you have with current line bred animals. I think eventually if the morph comes from a known, quality source/breeder (ie honest and trustworthy, regardless of the heritage of his animals) that produces an exquisite looking line of whatever it is, it will still be desirable by those that like the look of his or her animals. Just like "SXR topaz womas" or "Krauss Black and Gold Jungles" have or do command a higher price than the more typical looking woma or jungle, so to in time will a "XXXX line striped diamond" as opposed to some guy flogging a diamond cross a striped coastal (*again regardless of whether it is a naturally occurring morph or hybrid). The difference to me is that once recognised and accepted the XXXX breeder will be more than happy to put their name to what they breed, many breeders overseas have no problem selling their "less desirable" offspring out of a clutch just because the people buying them know what they are getting and who they are getting it from. My assumption is however that as long as the peers of the people that produce these animals (that they obviously like and are passionate about) are referred to as "goons" that many of the animals that are sold will be sold in the manner similar to the MD specimen that Krefft ended up with, and it will be far easier to offload a known cross as what ever it looks like.......


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2009)

Blimey Nick if you got out anymore you would never be home :lol:


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## viridis (Feb 4, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Nick,-
> no offence, but most of what you said in your post is rubbish. Plain and simple.!! Just an inacurate opinion.
> Plus if you havnt seen stripped carpets in the wild, you and alot of other people, definitely need to get out more.


 
Your right Robyn,

I have never encounted a stripped Carpet in the wild. In fact I dont think I have ever seen any stripped snake in the wild? Could you please enlighten us with some pics of stripped Carpets?

Nick


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2009)

Naked snakes.....this is a family site


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

In response to the talk regarding Kreft being sold a misrepresented carpet, 

Yes, the breeding of designer snakes has the potential to cause this to re-occur, however what most if not nearly all keepers dont realise is that it is already happening and has been happening for years. The only difference is in most instances when a designer snake is involved, you can more often than not tell by the unusual pattern or colouration (this should be considered a positive). When it involves offspring from the same species but from different locales eg Brisbane and Townsville Carpets, more often than not, you probably wont be able to tell.

Designer snakes are not the beginning of misrepresented animals. Its been going on for years, due to dishonest breeders.


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## Kersten (Feb 4, 2009)

Hmmmm, I don't think there's many here who don't realise that QLDMorelias....I don't think many have exclusively pointed the finger at designer snakes. Hybrids in general seem to be the order of the day.


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## pythons73 (Feb 4, 2009)

If you think designer snakes is the way of the future i think yourve been smoking too much grass,imo. 90-95% of ppl i no, would prefer pure snakes anyday over a cross-hybrid.They are here and so are exotics,theres nothing that can be done about that.Id prefer to spend my $$$ on pure snakes anyday,if they were meant to be like that,god wouldve created it.If you Qldmorelias are so happy about these snakes why dont you show your real identity,what you live in NSW,QLD N.T come on,who are you trying to kid....


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

Rob
Why is that rubbish. Hundreds of thousands of breeders across the world who have been and done what is happening here in Australia have headed in the designer snake direction. Yes, wild type reptiles are beautiful in their own respect and certainly have a massive place in Oz herp and there will always be people keeping and maintaing what they think are wild type carpets. But times and trends are changing in an ever increasing amount of peoples opinions here in OZ, just as it did in other parts of the world. 
You only have to look at the difference in response to this thread in comparison to ones in the past. It is already happening



TrueBlue said:


> Nick,-
> no offence, but most of what you said in your post is rubbish. Plain and simple.!! Just an inacurate opinion.
> Plus if you havnt seen stripped carpets in the wild, you and alot of other people, definitely need to get out more.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

pythons73 said:


> If you think designer snakes is the way of the future i think yourve been smoking too much grass,imo. 90-95% of ppl i no, would prefer pure snakes anyday over a cross-hybrid.They are here and so are exotics,theres nothing that can be done about that.Id prefer to spend my $$$ on pure snakes anyday,if they were meant to be like that,god wouldve created it.If you Qldmorelias are so happy about these snakes why dont you show your real identity,what you live in NSW,QLD N.T come on,who are you trying to kid....


 
Not the whole identity thing again: why would someone post on the internet who they are. I keep to a very small group of old school herps, who helped pioneer this hobby and are helping move into the future.You would have never of heard of me before and that was for my own preference and thats the way it stays. The different locations is representing other herps in our circle of friends. 
Lets face it pythons 73, 90-95% of your mates does not represent the whole community, I think if you look at the poll, you will see a different story representing over 2000 people. Yes, that doesnt represent the whole herp community, but it is a far cry from your 90-95% of your mates.


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## Kurto (Feb 4, 2009)

pythons73 said:


> If you think designer snakes is the way of the future i think yourve been smoking too much grass,imo. 90-95% of ppl i no, would prefer pure snakes anyday over a cross-hybrid.They are here and so are exotics,theres nothing that can be done about that.Id prefer to spend my $$$ on pure snakes anyday,if they were meant to be like that,god wouldve created it.If you Qldmorelias are so happy about these snakes why dont you show your real identity,what you live in NSW,QLD N.T come on,who are you trying to kid....



Sorry buddy I have to agree with Qldmorelias. Although I keep only pure snakes, designer snakes are defiantly going to come in, in a big way over the next few years. Globally and locally there's too much evidence to support an ever increasing trend for new colors, patterns and different looking animals. There is room for both sides of the hobby here in oz, wether it be designer or not. The purists have had the voice of the herp community for so long now that some change is going to painful....


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## Vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> But times and trends are changing in an ever increasing amount of peoples opinions here in OZ, just as it did in other parts of the world.


 
And look at all the people overseas whinging and crying to be in Australia, so they can get their hands on our pure native stock, as even THEY realise finding pure animals is becoming a lost cause. I would NEVER trust buying anything from any of the breeders over there even if they claim it is pure, look at the mess they have already made of their stock.



QldMorelias said:


> It is already happening


 
God help us all ! :lol:


----------



## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 4, 2009)

We have access to pure animals here in Aus to replenish stocks (illegally in many cases), in America they obviously don't, hence the winging...


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## jasonryles810 (Feb 4, 2009)

and still it goes on...

hybrids are here to stay

pure breds are here to stay as well

get over it


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Hmmmm, I don't think there's many here who don't realise that QLDMorelias....I don't think many have exclusively pointed the finger at designer snakes. Hybrids in general seem to be the order of the day.


 
You are probabaly right, but in my opinion designer snakes/Hybrids are the same thing. Like I said picking a hybrid being misrepresented as a clean line is fairly easy. 
eg Krefts so called Murray Darling


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## Jet_1 (Feb 4, 2009)

Sorry people but I am still confused about the whole hybrid argument.....what exactly is the problem?
The definition of hybrid is something that is changed from an exisitng action/form into a preferred one....this includes a cross between populations within defined species or subspecies.....?

Further all of the arguments regarding naturally occurring morphs in my opinion are equally flawed....whist the morph or colour pattern is naturally occurring-continually line breeding to consistantly reproduce that colour/pattern is not. .


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## Kersten (Feb 4, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> You are probabaly right, but in my opinion designer snakes/Hybrids are the same thing. Like I said picking a hybrid being misrepresented as a clean line is fairly easy.
> eg Krefts so called Murray Darling



In that case it was. It's not always so.


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## Vixen (Feb 4, 2009)

Jet_1 said:


> whist the morph or colour pattern is naturally occurring-continually line breeding to consistantly reproduce that colour/pattern is not. .


 
Thats what some people are trying to say. You can get some equally hot animals without having to hybridize. 

What would you prefer?
1. A pure designer snake that looks great.
2. An animal that looks no better, but is a mix of so many different species you lose count?!

I know which id choose. I have no problem with people line breeding to produce designer animals, as long as it remains esentially pure, ie the one subspecies.

Look at Joels reduce pattern coastals for an example. They are my absolute DREAM snake and look much better than the animals pictured at the start of this thread. I would take these guys over anything, and they are only going to get better and better in the future.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

Finally, some new photo's. Hope like this line. I had hoped to post them before now but some people don't really get these new fangled gadgets.


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## Jet_1 (Feb 4, 2009)

Hi Vixen babe,
Agreed, but I dont really see the difference, eventually its not pure.....genetically neither are natural, line breeding encourages inbred animals to reproduce the colour/morph......I realise not everone does this, but many do, hence the same argument as hybrids "genteically not pure"......eg. look at the work that goes into producing recessive genes such as albinism, dont tell me that everyone who buys a pair of albino carpets out breeds them to maintain genetic diversity rather than breeding the pair that they have (often from the same clutch) in the order to get some albino babies to sell a little bit sooner?.......


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## Jungleland (Feb 4, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Finally, some new photo's. Hope like this line. I had hoped to post them before now but some people don't really get these new fangled gadgets.


 
Nice Jags QldMorelias.......


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## TrueBlue (Feb 4, 2009)

nick,
hahaha, is that it, hahaha. My typing sux, im the first to admit that. hahaha. Still dosnt change the fact that most of your post was an inacurate opinion. ( no offence).
For a start most of the hybrid breeding countries have little to no acsess to pure morelia sub-species hence the amonunt of crossing etc. This answers your query too qldmorelia.
Anybody that thinks hypo coastals, " striped " coastals and jungles are not relatively common in the wild really does need to get out more or open their eyes. And thats a fact.!!
So nick in your vast herping experiance, of a handful of years, you have never seen a wild " striped " carpet or jungle.??


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

Now don't work yourselves up over this, it's almost bedtime. These photo's were sent by friends. If you go to our page you'll have a 1 in 61 chance of guessing who's they are, not that it matters. They were bred in a state where it's legal, so no laws have been broken. For the rest of you I've been told that once they start to show some colour offspring will be available.
Please, we already know which of you don't like them, and we already know what you'll say. So turn the computer off and go to bed.


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2009)

Remember also that Morelia make up only a small % of snakes kept overseas so they may well bemoan the lack of guaranteed pure snakes of that genus but all the others they have access to are as pure as any we have. 



Den said:


> We have access to pure animals here in Aus to replenish stocks (illegally in many cases), in America they obviously don't, hence the winging...


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## megrim (Feb 4, 2009)

jasonryles810 said:


> and still it goes on...
> 
> hybrids are here to stay
> 
> ...



After coming to this thread with no real opinion either way, and after reading through 38 (so far) pages of discussion, I'm pretty sure this is what my sentiments are turning into.

This thread has been fascinating for me, I did not even realise hybrids were an issue until joining this forum, and interesting though it has been.... I'm starting to understand the responses of "here we go again /yawn" from some people when these threads pop up.


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## megrim (Feb 4, 2009)

boa said:


> Remember also that Morelia make up only a small % of snakes kept overseas so they may well bemoan the lack of guaranteed pure snakes of that genus but all the others they have access to are as pure as any we have.


 Even more so, with the amount of wild caught reptiles that seem to sell over there. Can't get much more pure than that.


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2009)

Wild caught are not very popular anymore and with the numbers of almost all species being bred in captivity are much less common than they used to be even 10 years ago.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

akira said:


> I, like so many others, have have been watching this thread since it's inception. Wow, who needs to watch 'Home and Away'!
> 
> I'd like to refer back to the only thread IMO that represents a fair and balanced view to the actual divisions on the lines of to hybrid or not to hybrid. The sticky post poll from NCHERPS at the top of the Australian Snakes section.
> 
> ...


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2009)

:lol:


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## carpetmuncher (Feb 4, 2009)

how much are you selling your jags for? how much for one's bred here?


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## cement (Feb 4, 2009)

Where is the poll to vote?
A few sit ups wouldn't go astray


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## QldMorelias (Feb 4, 2009)

cement said:


> Where is the poll to vote?
> A few sit ups wouldn't go astray


 
Ok, how about now.


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## megrim (Feb 4, 2009)

cement said:


> Where is the poll to vote?
> A few sit ups wouldn't go astray


 
PMSL :lol::lol:

I have noticed too, following the various polls put up, that those for crosses and such do indeed outnumber those against, only by a small margin, but a margin none-the-less.
Mostly interesting to me because reading most posts and arguments, I'd have thought closer to 80% were dead opposed to hybrids.

I guess they just shout louder than those who aren't against it. A vocal minority?


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## mistymtn (Feb 4, 2009)

More pics of Jags to be sold as "hybrid's"...
Boring....Bring on the pure locale specific morphs!!




QldMorelias said:


> Finally, some new photo's. Hope like this line. I had hoped to post them before now but some people don't really get these new fangled gadgets.


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## Stewydead (Feb 4, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> This answers your query too qldmorelia.
> Anybody that thinks hypo coastals, " striped " coastals and jungles are not relatively common in the wild really does need to get out more or open their eyes. And thats a fact.!!
> So nick in your vast herping experiance, of a handful of years, you have never seen a wild " striped " carpet or jungle.??


 
A Wild tri-stripe coastal (cant remember but im sure the lines were unbroken) found in bli bli sunshine coast about 4 years ago.

and i have seen a hell of a lot of wild hypo's and different striped coastals getting around. Not stirring anything thing but Rob is right


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## wizz (Feb 4, 2009)

nice snake........do not no about the hybrid though lol.........


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 4, 2009)

Boa 
Wild caught aren't as popular anymore ? how on earth do you conclude that ? 
Some of our wild caught reptiles have never been so much in demand, or are you just referring to the overseas situation ?
jet1
Since when does inbreeding mean a species is know longer pure ? Try tell that to the Tasmanians ( joking ).
Please keep it real folks, dribble is starting to ruin this thread.


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## Bushfire (Feb 4, 2009)

We keep having these threads come up because this is one of the major issues along with exotics that reptile people in this country at this time want and really should keep talking about. People change their minds either way as this is more openly talked about and their understanding of the issues at hand develops. I imagine this will be the case for some time.


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## Renagade (Feb 5, 2009)

Mmm. what a read... this an old conversation old(but new) rep. aust mag isssue. i know i'm heaps late, but i only just bought it today. i really think (and i'll say it again) this is the future in herps. get used to it or get rich avoiding it. I love the devide.. and i really love the reduced patten, scaleless,two headed,carpondros,.. ect. show me your freaks... i'll probably never own one...


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## jamgo (Feb 5, 2009)

*here's mine red bellied x spotted black*




photos of parents and one juvenile the rest of the litter was crap so i release them but its ok we get both here in the wild.


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## Kris (Feb 5, 2009)

Good way to win an arguement Nick, well try, by picking on a mis-spelled word. Everything you said is incorrect Rob because of the extra p. 

Kris.


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## Bob2 (Feb 5, 2009)

If groups of people need to put a bag on their head (as funny as it is) just to have a discussion about hybrids, I have dificulty understanding how people will find the courage to be honest about their hybrids when it comes time to selling them.


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## Jet_1 (Feb 5, 2009)

Hi Pilbara pythons,
my apologies for not keeping it real....and we could debate the definition of pure till we are blue in the face. It just appears to me that the whole crossing/hybrid/ purity debate seems to centre around genetics and maintaining genetic integrity to ensure a snake is "pure" (whatever that means) in some way.My comment question was trying to find out why it seems unacceptable to breed (cross) say a BHP from different states yet it seems more than acceptable to continually inbreed (as I said, often brother-sister) a morph like albino carpets just because it is still top end carpet.........it might have three heads but its still pure, ready to re release any time you like because albinism is a naturally occurring trait you know???


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## Moreliaman (Feb 5, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> For a start most of the hybrid breeding countries have little to no acsess to pure morelia sub-species hence the amonunt of crossing etc.



Sorry mate, but thats slightly incorrect, last visit to germany i saw about 3-4 pure morelia sub species & many of them didnt mind admiting they'd been sent over from australia.

To add, its not just australia that has keepers who prefer to keep pure lines & dont like interspecific hybrids !


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## krefft (Feb 5, 2009)

Ishah said:


> Would love to know what the first one (and its siblings) got sold to you as! If the second was sold as a MD!:shock:
> 
> (P.S. For those who can't be stuffed looking for the post to see the pics again, or those who missed it... its post #397 http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/1368548-post397 )
> 
> ...


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## zulu (Feb 5, 2009)

*re Some*

This is why i like APS,problem with hybrids including jags is that some look awsum in a clutch but the majority are ordinary looking slags that fit nowhere comfortably,you ownley get shown the good ones,the others are passed on as a species or type they most likely represent in the imagination of the inventor (breeder).


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## ad (Feb 5, 2009)

Seeing the pic of the Diamond and Jungle together helped me realize what an immature bunch of wannabes you really are.
No wonder people say we are 20 years behind the yanks, I can see now you are even further than that. Pure line breeders are actually 20 years in front of the yanks :lol:
What do you actually hope to achieve? It is pretty well proven that it is quite an ugly cross with very little 'super morph' potential.

Enjoy playing catch up to the yanks, you do have a long way to go, then again as most of you have never bred anything - chances are you still wont be able to sell your cross breeds, Ya gotta prove yourselves as actual breeders in the hobby first 

Ya got nothing but smoke and mirrors atm, :lol:

Come back when you have achieved something slightly remarkable :lol: well apart from your smuggling skills


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## Retic (Feb 5, 2009)

I was answering the post above referring to the amount of wild caught reptiles in America which like many was uninformed and inaccurate.



PilbaraPythons said:


> Boa
> Wild caught aren't as popular anymore ? how on earth do you conclude that ?
> Some of our wild caught reptiles have never been so much in demand, or are you just referring to the overseas situation ?


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## ad (Feb 5, 2009)

:lol:


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 5, 2009)

ad said:


> Seeing the pic of the Diamond and Jungle together helped me realize what an immature bunch of wannabes you really are.
> No wonder people say we are 20 years behind the yanks, I can see now you are even further than that. Pure line breeders are actually 20 years in front of the yanks :lol:
> What do you actually hope to achieve? It is pretty well proven that it is quite an ugly cross with very little 'super morph' potential.
> 
> ...



Stop giving the Yanks all the credit - you will find that the majority of the better morelia morphs were from mainland Europe..


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 5, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Moreliaman,-
> as I said have "little" to no acsess to morelia sub-species. I few smuggled animals in a few counties is not a large gene pool to have acsess too.



The trade in endangered species / general wildlife smuggling is second only to the drugs trade - I think you underestimate the scale of it.

The rewards are extremely high and the penalties are miniscule - your country is one of the very few who actually take the problem with any seriousness and dishes out some of the higher penalties for smuggling. Over here if you got caught you might just get the snakes confiscated and get a summons which will ultimately lead to a suspended sentence but most likely you would get just a small fine!


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## TrueBlue (Feb 5, 2009)

diamondgeeza,-
Yes that is most likely true, but with the huge amount of keepers in europe and the states it still would not supply a very large gene pool compared to here. Only a small percentage of keepers over there would have acsess to them.


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## ad (Feb 5, 2009)

diamondgeeza said:


> Stop giving the Yanks all the credit - you will find that the majority of the better morelia morphs were from mainland Europe..



It seems my knowledge of your herp scene is on a par with what you know about ours :lol:
And just as relevant


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## Moreliaman (Feb 5, 2009)

You must be right true, after all you visit the shows every year dont you !!! , As diamongeezer has already pointed out, just the same as the amount customs find going in & out of your country every year, whats offered for sale is only a tiny fraction of what people have, both the reptile markets here in europe and america dwarf the australian one !

All due respect.....Stop sticking yer head in the sand mate. Almost feels like people are having sour grapes just because we have australian herps over here.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2009)

Going by the number of e-mails from overseas regularly I receive, it is clear that our wild caught reptiles are in demand all over the world, but there is nothing really surprising about that. 
As for designer snakes go, I have nothing against them as long as they are bred within the boundaries of the same species and I know that for many the species validity is arguable. 

I will also say that if the odd sub-species accidentally got in to a population of the same genus, over long periods of time (and again because they would share ancestral traits),
the visual evidence would eventually disappear and solely on that bench mark ( which most humans appeal to), one would have to question the real harm, which I think by the way, is no big deal.

For those that argue that by sticking to this stance creates specimens that do not represent what could occur in the wild, I doubt this would be the case as the genetic cocktail was always there in the first place and stems from shared ancestral traits. We only ever see the most minuscule percentage imaginable of a wild population to judge in the first place what amazing looking critters are out there. I will add that I personally have not seen any specimen line bred that looks any better than what I have seen in the wild in the past. The exception would be Nick Stocks ghost Darwin’s, but I would guarantee that there would be examples similar in the wild at some point.
Some have argued that if people are indeed seeing the occasional tri-colour or what ever that there would be more pics to see as proof. This is plain and simple rubbish, years ago digital cameras were not owned by the average person (unlike today). I spend
7 months a years herping and rarely ever take my camera along with me. I used to own an absolutely stunning jungle python that the QLD fauna police claimed was the most amazing looking python that they had ever laid eyes upon in their career, yet again there is no pics ( yes I regret my slackness ).
These days with the popularity of owning digital cameras, we are likely to see a lot more special pics of Australia’s amazing reptiles in the near future.

Boa
Yeah, I thought you must of been talking about overseas but I am still interested in how you came to your conclusion, I know very little about the overseas scene. 

Jet1
Some very isolated and rare populations of reptiles inbreed to some degree e.g. Bigge island, a very small Island off the Kimberley coast. D.E.C completed a fauna survey and failed to turn up a single rough scaled python, even though we know they exist there. 
The population there would still be deemed as both natural and pure. I am not quite sure if you are thinking that albinism is a natural occurrence as you placed a question mark at the end of your sentence. Just to clarify this, they are.


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## Retic (Feb 5, 2009)

A well worded polite post Dave. I think it's fairly common knowledge that wild caught reptiles in all major markets are far less common than they used to be, years ago probably 90% of reptiles in the market would have been quite literally straight out of the wild, now with practically all species being bred in large numbers CB are obviously more popular. When I used to keep in the UK many years ago virtually the only choice would have been WC, everything from chameleons, Boas, Iguanas etc but over the years these species are all bred commonly in captivity which has reduced the pressure on wild populations.Of course WC are still available especially with new species to the market but within a couple of years these too will become more and more commonly available as CB animals. 



PilbaraPythons said:


> Boa
> Yeah, I thought you must of been talking about overseas but I am still interested in how you came to your conclusion, I know very little about the overseas scene.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2009)

This thread is getting funnier by the minute, stop it guys I have work to do.


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## Retic (Feb 5, 2009)

You're not wrong there, some very funny comments indeed.


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## Kersten (Feb 5, 2009)

If the animals that you're trying to pass off here as above board and legal really were both then you wouldn't have to go to such lengths to keep your identity hidden. You're not furthering your cause by creating vague nonsense threats against people who have at least the integrity to put their name to their animals. In fact, you're making yourself and your "friends" look more ridiculous and gutless by the second :lol:


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## FAY (Feb 5, 2009)

Please keep this thread adult.
Any name calling and general nastiness and it will be closed, for good.


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## Retic (Feb 5, 2009)

Woohoo, now children please play nice.


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## fatfrog (Feb 5, 2009)

Cool but i missed all the good stuff


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## dee4 (Feb 5, 2009)

Nice work faye.


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## Jet_1 (Feb 5, 2009)

way to go mod!


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## QldMorelias (Feb 5, 2009)

The power of the people!
Now where was I?
Ah yes, Rob. I think I was about to abuse you, or was it your turn to abuse me?


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## =bECS= (Feb 5, 2009)

Lets get back to the debate and keep it on topic, which by the way is one of the rules  Things seem to be headding off on another tangent.

I for one am not a fan of hybrids although i realise it is happening. 
It just means you have to be more selective of who you buy from.
The certificates mentioned seems like a good idea. They would have to be ones that are not easily forged & what would happen if ownership of the snake changes, pics of the snake on the certificates maybe?


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## fatfrog (Feb 5, 2009)

Ok on topici like hybrids everybody wins the snakes get lucky and you get free snakes whats not to like


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## DanTheMan (Feb 5, 2009)

When I 1st got my license (Qld), it states that different species cannot be intentionally cross bred, so I guess this is how you can get away with it?
Just say you put them in a tub together while cleaning their enclosures, and bam, next thing you know you have eggs? Didn't mean to, and then you would obviously have to right this down in your record book? What would you put them down as? No common name or scientific?
I have read through a lot of this, but 40 odd pages is a bit much right now, so if this has already been asked, sorry.


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## DanTheMan (Feb 5, 2009)

Another quick question, hybrid elapids?
I would NEVER go near this, just interested to know, is it possible like it is with diff. python species?


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## fatfrog (Feb 5, 2009)

I think if they had a scientific and/or common name then people wouldent hate them so much and remember most dog breeds are hybrids but you give them a name and everybody loves them


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## Vixen (Feb 5, 2009)

For the 1000th time dogs are one and the same species, there is no such thing as a hybrid in dogs. Stop comparing them to reptiles in the matter of hybrids.


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## =bECS= (Feb 5, 2009)

I think they just write them off as morelia spilota.

In NSW some hybrids have been given their own code, but i think thats more to keep them on the books and stop people keeping them legally off licence like they did with hybrid birds.

As it was explained to me:
When people started hybridising birds they had no codes for the hybrids and nothing in the licencing rules to keep them on the books thus there was a loophole for people to keep breed and sell them off licence.

This way, if they are given codes of their own, parks can keep an eye on whats where and not loose out on the extra revenue if people were able to keep hybrids off licence.


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## =bECS= (Feb 5, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> For the 1000th time dogs are one and the same species, there is no such thing as a hybrid in dogs. Stop comparing them to reptiles in the matter of hybrids.



Ive been thinking about that. People are always comparing them to dogs, would it be more appropriate to compare them to say something like fish?
A bit like crossing a goldfish with a cichlid or a silver shark with a betta?

If not, its just my late night deleruim, ignore it :lol:


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## arbok (Feb 5, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> akira said:
> 
> 
> > I, like so many others, have have been watching this thread since it's inception. Wow, who needs to watch 'Home and Away'!
> ...


----------



## DanTheMan (Feb 5, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Hi all, these pics are of siblings to the parents of the yellow cloured reduced pattern animals in the first post, I am really bad with cameras and computers so the pics aren't great, the first animal traces back to the Murray Falls area and is fairly indicative of what the mother looked like except for the fact that the photo has washed alot of colour out, the second is very similar to the father and as you can see is mcdowelli with reduced black and reduced pattern and in the fleshi s very lemon yellow in colour. Hope these help and hope they work



So these are offsprings of hybrids?
I've seen plenty of wild ones that look identical, here's an example, not the best one iv seen, but didn't get any pics of the others


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## DanTheMan (Feb 6, 2009)

arbok said:


> QldMorelias said:
> 
> 
> > do you not care about your animals? its unnatural and disgraceful im sure all of this goes over your head, but imo anyone who breeds hybrids doesnt love reptiles for what they really are, go find another hobby.
> ...


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## Bushfire (Feb 6, 2009)

Dan, Yes there is quite a few hybrid elapids out there. one example is post #576 in this thread.


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## arbok (Feb 6, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> arbok said:
> 
> 
> > Your an angry little man aren't you!:lol:
> ...


----------



## fatfrog (Feb 6, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> For the 1000th time dogs are one and the same species, there is no such thing as a hybrid in dogs. Stop comparing them to reptiles in the matter of hybrids.


Yes dogs are the same species and so are morelias but diffrent dogs were breed to give the looks and characteristics of two dogs into one dog and thats how we get most of the dog species of today (look it up if you don't believe me)and sorry if i repeated anything but theres over 600 posts give me a break:?


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## DanTheMan (Feb 6, 2009)

arbok said:


> DanTheMan said:
> 
> 
> > :lol:
> ...


----------



## arbok (Feb 6, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> arbok said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, fair enough. I know I certainly don't want it ending up like America.
> ...


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## Bushfire (Feb 6, 2009)

Fatfrog, You may have to check your understanding of the use of name Morelia again please. Morelia is the Genus Name as Canis is to dog. I would suggest looking up this in google to update your information.


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## zobo (Feb 6, 2009)

people are so funny. 
As with everything in life people have different opinions on everything and yet we all have to get along (in general) People just need to stop resorting to name calling and soapboxing and just stick to what they like. 
I personally like morphs, but not so much hybrids, yet I am not on the internet wasting my time trying to convince people the grass is greener on my side......
Honestly it is like trying to convert someone from Holden to Ford, or Qld to NSW, it just aint going to happen people!

how about talking about the actual reptiles???? weird I know!


LOL


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## cris (Feb 6, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> For the 1000th time dogs are one and the same species, there is no such thing as a hybrid in dogs. Stop comparing them to reptiles in the matter of hybrids.



Even if you only only consider hybrids to be things crossed that have differant names (which demostrates a poor understand of the word) a dingo X domestic is still a Intraspecific hybrid. Crossing carpet pythons is comaprable to crossing dogs, sometimes it can create something desirable(atleast to some), but those bred randomly are often unwanted and given away or killed. I also think there is more variation in domestic dogs than there is in the carpets pythons that likely to be lumped together in the future. Also taxonomists are only really just starting to find out or decide what a subspieces actually is IMO, to actually classfiy animals properly into clear cut groups is extremely hard to do and wont be accurately done for a long time. The thing that needs to be accepted is that if we are going to continue keeping reptiles in captivity they will become domesticated and the only reason for keeping them pure (most dont even understand what that requires) in most cases is for sentimental reasons, just like some dog breeders dont like cross breeds some reptile breeders dont like them either.


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## zack13 (Feb 6, 2009)

arbok said:


> QldMorelias said:
> 
> 
> > do you not care about your animals? its unnatural and disgraceful im sure all of this goes over your head, but imo anyone who breeds hybrids doesnt love reptiles for what they really are, go find another hobby.
> ...


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## Vixen (Feb 6, 2009)

cris said:


> Even if you only only consider hybrids to be things crossed that have differant names (which demostrates a poor understand of the word) a dingo X domestic is still a Intraspecific hybrid. Crossing carpet pythons is comaprable to crossing dogs, sometimes it can create something desirable(atleast to some), but those bred randomly are often unwanted and given away or killed. I also think there is more variation in domestic dogs than there is in the carpets pythons that likely to be lumped together in the future. Also taxonomists are only really just starting to find out or decide what a subspieces actually is IMO, to actually classfiy animals properly into clear cut groups is extremely hard to do and wont be accurately done for a long time. The thing that needs to be accepted is that if we are going to continue keeping reptiles in captivity they will become domesticated and the only reason for keeping them pure (most dont even understand what that requires) in most cases is for sentimental reasons, just like some dog breeders dont like cross breeds some reptile breeders dont like them either.


 
Dingos are a different species to dogs so yes that WOULD be a hybrid. A dog x dog no matter what the breed is still the same species.


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## fatfrog (Feb 6, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> arbok said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, fair enough. I know I certainly don't want it ending up like America.
> ...


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## megrim (Feb 6, 2009)

cris said:


> Crossing carpet pythons is comaprable to crossing dogs, The thing that needs to be accepted is that if we are going to continue keeping reptiles in captivity they will become domesticated and the only reason for keeping them pure (most dont even understand what that requires) in most cases is for sentimental reasons, just like some dog breeders dont like cross breeds some reptile breeders dont like them either.



I believe Sdaji started a thread about this very issue of sentimentality a while back.
'Twas a good and informative read.

_Edit: Found it http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/exotics-other-reptiles/locality-purity-why-does-it-matter-89703_


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## DanTheMan (Feb 6, 2009)

fatfrog said:


> DanTheMan said:
> 
> 
> > Yahh we don't want that to happen did you know that in america everyone loves hybrids and thats why they have so many problemsbut seriously how would hybrids make this thread like america?
> ...


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## fatfrog (Feb 6, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> fatfrog said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, not the thread turning into America. I meant we don't want the hobby of reptile keeping turning into what it is over there, It's harder to find a pure animal than a Hybrid.
> ...


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## Moreliaman (Feb 6, 2009)

Dogs are crosses, some need to read the links that cris posted on wiki.
Just like humans & other species theyve all had millions of years seperation to evolve in their own way, american wolves, european etc etc....if anything the gap is bigger than morelia.
Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as *interspecific* hybrids or crosses.

As said before by plenty of people, it occurs naturally in the wild & this is going to happen wether we like it or not, its human nature, we've dont it with all the other species we've decided to keep as pets & i believe theres room in the hobby for both.
Just a pity we cant seem to hold a sensible & informative conversation over it

Amazing to think if you saw someone walking in the street with a boxer or staffy you wouldnt blink an eye, but if you saw someone walking with a pet wolf !!:shock:


Taken from wiki (the links should still work)
*Hybrids in nature*

Hybridisation between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature. Many hybrid zones are known where the ranges of two species meet, and hybrids are continually produced in great numbers. These hybrid zones are useful as biological model systems for studying the mechanisms of speciation (Hybrid speciation). Recently DNA analysis of a bear shot by a hunter in the North West Territories confirmed the existence of naturally occurring and fertile polar bear/grizzly bear hybrids.[9] There have been reports of similar supposed hybrids, but this is the first to be confirmed by DNA analysis. In 1943, Clara Helgason described a male bear shot by hunters during her childhood. It was large and off-white with hair all over its paws. The presence of hair on the bottom of the feet suggests it was a natural hybrid of Kodiak and Polar bear.
In some species, hybridisation plays an important role in evolutionary biology. While most hybrids are disadvantaged as a result of genetic incompatibility, the fittest survive, regardless of species boundaries.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 6, 2009)

Just for the record. Dogs evolved in every part of the world. How can they be one specie then? They did not evolve from the same common ancestor. You can hardly say an African wild dog is the same specie as the north American wolf. Because people selectively bred them for things that they needed dogs to do. Natural selection was taken out of the picture. If this selection process happened in nature, taxonomists would have given them subspecies status or species status as there is enough morphological and genetical differences to justify the division. The same things apply to humans. There is more than enough differences within homo sapiens from different parts of the world to justify is being divided into subspecies. But because this could be classed as racism we just don't do it. So why are morelia any different. They more than likely all evolved from the same ancestors. And as soon as human selection is applied to them taxonomy should not be applied to them as natural selection has been taken out of the equation. You can keep going on about pure lines until you are blue in the face. The fact is that as soon as humans line breed or even just breed wild snakes in captivity, that they are interfering with the natural selection process. No matter how good their intentions. As Dave said in a previous post, we do not have access to the whole representation of a specific subspecie in captivity. We are biased to the better looking specimens as favoured by humans in our collections. Natural selection does not favour any except the ones that actually make it to adulthood in the wild. What we see as a good representation of a subspecie is is influenced by human perception. Just a few thoughts.


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## Moreliaman (Feb 6, 2009)

A welcome input cordylus, But i was going on the angle that the land mass was 1 at one stage in the earths history & alot of things have evolved for 1 common ancestor & has had millions of years seperation, Im sure things would be alot different if continental split hadnt happened, has anyone here read darwins book ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species
Agreed some of the things humans cross wouldnt survive in the wild, but its amazing seeing the reaction over reptiles when virtually everything we eat is a hybrid, its been crossed for looks & ease of propergation, most vegtables and fruits are tastless now, but that doesnt stop us producing them.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 6, 2009)

Continental split happened before Homo sapiens was around. Domestic dogs have not been around for that long.


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## Retic (Feb 6, 2009)

Where on Earth do you guys get your information ? In America and that other big place the Rest of the World they keep reptiles from every corner of the world, it's probably safe to say that 90% of their animals are pure. Now I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade and introduce facts into a great emotional debate but please do just a little bit of research rather than relying on some inaccurate statements on the Internet. 



DanTheMan said:


> I meant we don't want the hobby of reptile keeping turning into what it is over there, It's harder to find a pure animal than a Hybrid.


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## Moreliaman (Feb 6, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> Continental split happened before Homo sapiens was around. Domestic dogs have not been around for that long.



Domestic dogs no......perhaps im going back a tad too far !! lol


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Boa, my thoughts exactly. Australia is one of the few countries in the world that has a total blanket ban on all importations for the pet trade. Pick up a book at some stage and read. I can recomend a book called the Lizard King. It revolves around one of the Biggest reptile smuggle syndicates in the world and how they operated. Maybe this will be an eye opener for some.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 6, 2009)

You might be Moreliaman. Its funny how some people can not understand basic principles of biology. It applies to all animals. Not just Morelia. Or they know what they know just because they read stuff on the internet. How sad. And Moreliaman i am not referring to you.


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## DanTheMan (Feb 6, 2009)

boa said:


> Where on Earth do you guys get your information ? In America and that other big place the Rest of the World they keep reptiles from every corner of the world, it's probably safe to say that 90% of their animals are pure. Now I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade and introduce facts into a great emotional debate but please do just a little bit of research rather than relying on some inaccurate statements on the Internet.



Its not really info, hardly a fact. Its a hyperbole, I base my judgment on what I have seen on American websites etc.


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## Moreliaman (Feb 6, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> Its not really info, hardly a fact. Its a hyperbole, I base my judgment on what I have seen on American websites etc.



Ahhhh well if youve read it on an american website then it must be true eh !! 
Wouldnt it be better to get the info from an american instead of assuming,


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## TrueBlue (Feb 6, 2009)

This seems to be the right thread to set the record straight.!!

To all those people that have been telling porkies and speading slander, (yes you know who you are), you may want to get your facts straight before you carry on like school children and get yourselves into big trouble,-
I " DONOT " own, nor have I EVER owned or ever had in my collection " jags ". Simple as that.

This hobby is a joke sometimes with all the lying backstabbing petty little wanabes around. It really is a messy hobby with jealously running rife.

I hope thats not to harsh moderators, and wont be deleted, as im only correcting what needs to be corrected.


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## DanTheMan (Feb 6, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Ahhhh well if youve read it on an american website then it must be true eh !!



Yeap, thats right!



Moreliaman said:


> Wouldnt it be better to get the info from an american instead of assuming,



Na, I'm right, and never wrong


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## bwana (Feb 6, 2009)

Gidday All,

"The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
In the quest for a new saleable novelties, patterns and colours, breeders of such specimens
fail to realize that the damage created by this practice is permanent.
What evolution has inexorably created over the millenia, cell by cell, molecule by molecule,
is destroyed forever by the passing whim of a would-be scientist, herpetological dilettante or commercial breeder, for once the genes are commingled, they are lost forever."
(Richard Ross (The reproductive husbandry of pythons and boa's)

They are jags, no doubt about it. 
I find it hard to believe that Qld Morelia's and his mates are "old school"
No old school herp would even think of such a thing.
Only the inexperienced amateur's and the money hungry would.
Cheers
Brian


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## =bECS= (Feb 6, 2009)

bwana said:


> Gidday All,
> 
> "The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
> The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
> ...



well said!


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## Retic (Feb 6, 2009)

Well that is something we most definitely agree on. 



TrueBlue said:


> This hobby is a joke sometimes with all the lying backstabbing petty little wanabes around. It really is a messy hobby with jealously running rife.


----------



## arbok (Feb 6, 2009)

fatfrog said:


> DanTheMan said:
> 
> 
> > But if we were america we would just take over the country with the pure animals and keep them for ourselves but the only reason we don't have the reptiles america has is because our land is perfect for reptiles and they would take over the country
> ...


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## rockman (Feb 6, 2009)

" This hobby is a joke sometimes with all the lying backstabbing petty little wanabes around. It really is a messy hobby with jealously running rife. " 
Quote from True-Blue .

See , we can agree on something ! .


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## bkn351 (Feb 6, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> ummm ..... thats a contridicting post.... locale morphs are the result of genetics that must (because of the locale aspect) originate in the wild populations, therefore even the extreme locale morph has the possibility to occur naturally in the wild, its just that via selection, we choose to increase the opportunity for these already present genes to be expressed. All in all these animals carry only the genetic material already present in wild populations. Your view seems to revolve around the assumption that all wild type animals are plain... the bumblebee bhp, albino darwin, albino olive, melanistic darwin... are all wild caught animals, and are by definition, wild type animals. Its a concept that seems difficult for people to wrap their heads around.


 
I havent read the last ten pages so if the subject pattern has changed im sorry.As i mindlessly read through the mutiple pages of arguments this post stood out to me as making the most sense in my opinion.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes boa and rockman, we can agree on lots of things if we want and open our minds a bit more.
Im as guilty as anyone for being narrow minded at times. Except when it comes to hybrids of course, as my stance still stands firmly.
But that statement i made is unfortunately far to true and makes the hobby a scary place for the faint hearted.
Lucky for me im thick skinned, water off a ducks back to me, as they only end up making themselves look stupid in the end.

Brian,- 
Thats says it all in a nut shell. Hell, where were you when the thread first started. Love your work.


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## rockman (Feb 6, 2009)

bwana said:


> Gidday All,
> 
> "The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
> The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
> ...




Damn , Brian , 
I didn't think you where that EDDUMACTEED to write all that by yourself . LOL 

Cheers


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## cockney red (Feb 6, 2009)

bwana said:


> Gidday All,
> 
> "The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
> The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
> ...


Nuff said.


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## Jet_1 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi bkn351,
I dont think that many people would argue that these traits are naturally occurring or derived from a wild animal. (eventhough some people are still raising it as an argument) I think the debate seems to have shifted to a more philosophical discussion about what is a "natural" situation( eg, captive breeding does not essentially represent a "true" wild type situation....I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue that serious breeders line breed animals that they find to have desirable traits) so essentially this is not natural. So whether it be albino, melanisitc, stripes, bands, hypo whatever, sure these things are natural traits but in captivity we reproduce them with far more regularity.......simply because we like them! I guess the morelia morph supporters are taking this one step further..All the traits are by definition still natural its just not necessarily a natural introduction. Same could probably be said though for striped carpets, just because you breed 2 striped carpets together doesnt mean they came from the same area

plus bumblebbe BHP's, albino darwins, albino olives etc, I wouldnt call "locale morphs", I dont think that trait would be representative of those species in that area.


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## indicus (Feb 6, 2009)

Yet another one of these threads that try to justify the stupidity; and arrogance of some keepers.
We tend to forget; it's not ones right to keep and breed native fauna;
but a privilege to do so....I wont even start


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## QldMorelias (Feb 6, 2009)

Once again its good to see that there are so many passionate people out there wanting to keep clean lines. Its these people and others like you that will ensure there will always be clean lines available for those who want them.. 
All the line breeding in the world and maintaining clean lines is great, but there never going back to the wild, the never going to be used for any significant breeding program and at the end of the day all their being bred for is the domestic Pet trade.
So what does it matter, on one hand you have pretty looking snakes that may be crosses and the other you have pretty looking snakes that are selectively bred. 

People have the choice, they now can choose what they want. Some like em, some loathe em


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## ihaveherps (Feb 6, 2009)

boa said:


> Where on Earth do you guys get your information ? In America and that other big place the Rest of the World they keep reptiles from every corner of the world, it's probably safe to say that 90% of their animals are pure. Now I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade and introduce facts into a great emotional debate but please do just a little bit of research rather than relying on some inaccurate statements on the Internet.



Boa, I agree that the generalisations made to becoming more like the US, are vast blanket statements that usually irk me too, though I have come over time to accept that the statement refers to Morelias in particular, and not the entire international herp scene. The morelia complex in the US in particular is a bit of a shambles really, yes they can still get pure sub-specific animals, theres no doubting that, and yes there seems to be an un-ending flow of animals leaving our shores, but the fact still remains that alot of their morelia stocks are hybrids, examples such as the miniscule amount of Diamonds compared to the masses of diamond crosses of various descriptions, the albino darwins pretty much off the bat being hybridised with Irian Jayas, the monster high yellow jungles 10ft + in some instances, i could go on and on... 

I am more amused by those who promote hybrids and their "its the way of the future" and "look at overseas markets, theres your proof" sort of statements. Looking at the broader picture, they would have noticed that the morelia group is pretty much shunned by the wider herp community, and recently in the US they speculated that it was most probably due to alot of bad assumptions on the integrity of the purity of the animals by those outside the morelia niche keepers. Ok, this cant be applied to here, as we arent afforded the same choice as they are, though still leads me into my next point.... If the pro-hybrid brigade removed their blinkers while sussing out the international scene a bit more thoroughly, they would also soon learn that the most common kept species/sub-species, the animals demanding the highest money, and arguably the most stunning of the morph animals, the leusistics, lavendar albinos, (arguably) even the original jag, are all pure animals.

I would spend as much time, if not more learning from the international scene. The understanding of genetics and husbandry, are in a practical sense, a long way ahead of us.... to some this is disappointing, to me its exciting. We have barely scratched the surface as to understanding the traits of our animals, locale breeding actually increases the possibilities of digging new traits out.... the hybrid short cuts are actually a step backwards from being the future, they are the past, its the easy way, because its already known and understood.... the real people who will forge ahead in the hobby are those who strive that little bit harder.


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## DanTheMan (Feb 6, 2009)

arbok said:


> fatfrog said:
> 
> 
> > mate, you make no sense...
> ...


----------



## Jungleland (Feb 6, 2009)

Here you go mistymtn, Rp prosiepines, hey qldmorelias, the first one in this thread is a murry darling Jags? I think i know who you are


mistymtn said:


> More pics of Jags to be sold as "hybrid's"...
> Boring....Bring on the pure locale specific morphs!!


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## Jet_1 (Feb 6, 2009)

bout time we had some more pics

hey jungleland,
very nice snake is it one of yours?


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## bkn351 (Feb 6, 2009)

Jet_1 said:


> Hi bkn351,
> I dont think that many people would argue that these traits are naturally occurring or derived from a wild animal. (eventhough some people are still raising it as an argument) I think the debate seems to have shifted to a more philosophical discussion about what is a "natural" situation( eg, captive breeding does not essentially represent a "true" wild type situation....I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue that serious breeders line breed animals that they find to have desirable traits) so essentially this is not natural. So whether it be albino, melanisitc, stripes, bands, hypo whatever, sure these things are natural traits but in captivity we reproduce them with far more regularity.......simply because we like them! I guess the morelia morph supporters are taking this one step further..All the traits are by definition still natural its just not necessarily a natural introduction. Same could probably be said though for striped carpets, just because you breed 2 striped carpets together doesnt mean they came from the same area
> 
> plus bumblebbe BHP's, albino darwins, albino olives etc, I wouldnt call "locale morphs", I dont think that trait would be representative of those species in that area.


 
I will agree that those morphs are not something that occurs with as much regularity as they do in captivity(maybe not at all)but they are created by breeding the same subspecies.IM NOT LOCALE SPECIFIC ,i should of mentioned that before but maybe breed specific ie: if u have a diamond with lots of yellow and buy another diamond with lots of yellow and u breed and breed to create a snake that looks like a banana i have no problem with that as it is still a diamond python.I just see no need to cross two species that will never interbreed naturally to create a snake with wierd and wonderful patterns and colours when it can obviously be done within the subspecies.

Hopfully jet that cleares up where im coming from by quoting that post and why it made so much sense to me.

THANKS


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## QldMorelias (Feb 6, 2009)

indicus said:


> Yet another one of these threads that try to justify the stupidity; and arrogance of some keepers.
> We tend to forget; it's not ones right to keep and breed native fauna;
> but a privilege to do so....I wont even start


 
....no, don't start. Just refer back to previous posts if your interested. 
So our privilege only allows us to keep and breed for pets animals that came from the same location for what reason exactly???. Even though they will never again be released to the wild. I'm sure they would find comfort in knowing that they still kinda look like grandpa did, well kind of anyway.


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## Kersten (Feb 6, 2009)

bwana said:


> Gidday All,
> 
> "The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
> The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
> ...


Spot on.


----------



## Ishah (Feb 6, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> ....no, don't start. Just refer back to previous posts if your interested.
> So our privilege only allows us to keep and breed for pets animals that came from the same location for what reason exactly???. Even though they will never again be released to the wild. I'm sure they would find comfort in knowing that they still kinda look like grandpa did, well kind of anyway.


 

STOP saying that they will never get released back into the wild, as this is a very poor reason/excuse to hybridise! Its getting OLD and quite irritating really...We all know there is EVERY chance that they CAN & WILL (accidentally or intentionally) get released back into the wild! Just look at all the threads on lost pythons which have never been found again... Not everyone has the perfect escape-proof enclosures like I'm sure YOU would have...

The difference between hybrids and pures getting released back into the wild is, that hybrids are more likely to be released intentionally than pures and pures are more likely to be an accidental release...For many reasons, not just that 95% of a hybrid clutch will be ugly and discarded via multiple means...

I also agree 100% with bwana, it couldn't have been said any better!


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## krefft (Feb 6, 2009)

[ 
"The difference between hybrids and pures getting released back into the wild is, that hybrids are more likely to be released intentionally than pures and pures are more likely to be an accidental release...For many reasons, not just that 95% of a hybrid clutch will be ugly and discarded via multiple means..."

I would have thought the exact opposite to be true for re release. If someone had offspring that they couldn't sell and lived within the animals range the chances of them being released would be much higher than if thet were a hybrid.
I've not read anywhere that 95% of hybrids come out looking "ugly" could you tell me where you read that?


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## mistymtn (Feb 6, 2009)

Lovely Jungleland,
With animals like this why would you need to breed & smuggle in Mongrels!!

Cheers



Jungleland said:


> Here you go mistymtn, Rp prosiepines, hey qldmorelias, the first one in this thread is a murry darling Jags? I think i know who you are


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## Oldbeard (Feb 6, 2009)

Moreliaman said:


> Ahhhh well if youve read it on an american website then it must be true eh !!
> Wouldnt it be better to get the info from an american instead of assuming,


 
I suggest all APS members go to L.A expo in sept or daytona expo in aug and have a look at what they have and talk to them about their breeding. you will come back with a very different idea of how it is over there. there is a lot more pure stuff there than you think. 
Besides the small amount of breeders doing jags and the carpondros, i think you would be impressed with the lines of pure morelia they actually have.
As for the pure diamonds, they are miniscule over there as they dont know how to breed them. As soon as they hear your aussie accent they will ask you what is the trick to breeding diamonds. They just dont get it.

anyway back to the hybrid discussion, it took me hours to figure out how to post a pic last night. i finally got it and then they deleted the thread.
so here it is again. pick the mix


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 7, 2009)

Gtp X jungle jaguar?


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 7, 2009)

That quote from Ross is more than twenty years old. Before any morphs and mutations were even bred with any regularity. People tend to forget that most Australian pythons were being bred by foreigners long before it became common place in Australia. I would love to know if Ross has since had a change of heart. Many of the best foreign keepers in the world has shifted from breeding locality animals to designer animals. To name the barkers as an example. Morelias are a good complex to work with as there are so many combinations? And as krefft asked before, I would also like to know how all you hybrid haters know that 95% of a mongrel clutch would look like abominations?


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## diamondgeeza (Feb 7, 2009)

This super zebra belonging to Mr Paul Harris looks interesting as regards to future breeding projects....

..and for all you purists it is allegedly 100% jungle


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## Khagan (Feb 7, 2009)

diamondgeeza said:


> This super zebra belonging to Mr Paul Harris looks interesting as regards to future breeding projects....
> 
> ..and for all you purists it is allegedly 100% jungle



Looks different... Not sure it's on the level of some of the previous animals posted though, but as you say could be interesting breeding projects with other traits... Say like albino .


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## ihaveherps (Feb 7, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> Many of the best foreign keepers in the world has shifted from breeding locality animals to designer animals. To name the barkers as an example.



Huh? A while back the barkers did move out of morelia as far as I am aware, yes, they did move into morphs, but I have no idea where your getting this bit about moving away from breeding locality stock. They have actually spent a few yrs on a project, originally derived from wild caugth animals, T+ summatran short tail pythons, and if you read the blog with the advertised animals, they clearly state that they have only used orange headed animals from within the population as other blood in the project.... sounds strangely like locale breeding to me. 

This "the big international breeders" crap is getting old.... its a market that is pretty much dominated by Royals, and corns, amazingly sub-specific animals. Sure they are morph driven, though were never a community carved out on the backs of millions of designer hybrids..... no, it was the humble sub-specific morph. Hybrid animals wont be the future here, and were never the big tickets on the international scene.... sure there are the few novilties, the "bateaters", the "walls", and stuff, but on the whole, its mainly the Morelia scene that is the mongrel-makers playground, the ugly little sister to the wider herp community. This lets follow their lead, is just sheepish, un-original and tired. If hybrids were the almighty future then why, as a percentage, would sub-specific morphs dominate the international scene, hell, if you dont allow decimal places, im not sure that sub-specific crosses would even make it into the breakdown... Im just baffled as to why the trend you follow, as "the guiding light into the amateur herpetological future in this country", is such an insignificant blip on the world herpetology scene. If you had half a brain, you would have adopted the sub-specific morph idea from the balls and corns, they were the real giant leaps in the scene.

Meh... Im over this.... no matter how you slice it, hybrids are a short-cut to a far from foolproof result, biggest thing to be achieved is maybe use a known trait such as albinism and create a hybrid albino..... WOOHOO... let me just collect myself.... the anticipation that this marvellous hybrid albino animal has stirred up inside, almost made me wee wee in my pants....


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## Retic (Feb 7, 2009)

Oldbeard, yes I am very aware of the REAL situation overseas as opposed to the one that exists in the minds of some. 

That Super Tiger is a magnificent animal, like the absolute best Hypo times 2.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 7, 2009)

Ash,
Thats a Super Zebra , 
this morph is co dom like jags but i doubt that co dom morphs in carpets are from our natural native genetics .
Otherwise we would have Co Dom morphs in the wild ???? But we dont ?
We do have albinos ,,stripes ,,and hypos,, hypers etc etc etc
These are recessive traits and australia is the land of recessive reptile traits .

Also I find it a bit odd that ball pythons have Co Dom morphs found in the wild from there native origins ,
these rare but wild collected Co dom morphs started the whole Ball Python morph craze .

But in oz there are no proven Co Dom wild type natural morphs here .

bit strange if you ask me 

.


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## Oldbeard (Feb 7, 2009)

Not sure if you can see the price tag in the photo but it was going for $6000.00US last year at an expo.Go to the top of the class, cordylus. It is blatantly obvious that it is a carpondro, just like the snake on the very first page of this thread is blatantly obviously a jag. How would everyone feel if i was to smuggle this into the country and claim it to be an Australian line that I bred here myself.
Thats what I thought this argument was about. I cant believe how this thread has gone into a hybridisation argument when you can hybridise till you are blue in the face with pure australian animals and not come up with that jag at the start of this thread. 
Just like you cannot come up with the morphs in the gtps in the country now unless you are using stock from overseas. everyone still wants them, just like alot of people want jags.
Just be honest and say hey i have some jags for sale. dont know where they came from i picked them up at mcdonalds.


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## Retic (Feb 7, 2009)

Sorry yes Zebra, come on it was 7.00am when I posted that :lol:


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 7, 2009)

How sure are you of your facts ihaveherps? And always remember, its just your opinion, as always! Have you ever heard of jungle corns? Maybe you should see how big this market is. The problem with your theory is that there are thousands of more species to choose from overseas. The problem in Aussie is that you are strapped for choice, that's why there is such a demand for exotics. Fortunately carpet pythons show a lot of variation in pattern and colour. And this is what appeals to the hybrid breeder. The chance to create something new and intresting. You don't have to share their opinion, but you sure as hell won't change it.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 7, 2009)

Now that you mention it jungle freak, interesting thought.


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## ihaveherps (Feb 7, 2009)

Cordylus, I am well aware that I wont change anything in regards to the battle hardened hybridisers, just like they wont sway my views. I contributed to this thread, at first because Qldmorelias is an alias, too much of a cat to try and put a Jag past us as a hybrid under the normal username, and only later in the piece did I join the debate. This time round in the age old debate, i have tried to scale back in the personal opinion stakes (sure i slip the boot in occasionally), instead focussing on the hybridisers rhetoric. I am inputting for those members who think that aps is the entire global herp community, they do exist, likewise those who dont look much outside Australian species even on the global scale. These sorts of debates do have the effect of polarising some of those members who were previously undecided, alot of the time, it seems mis-information and shallow arguements are what swings them. My aim is to dispell some of the more feeble pro-hybrid rhetoric, at least arming those without the information some glimpses of the bigger picture behind some of the statements.

I know I will never sway the battle hardened hybridisers, thats not my goal.... I involved myself so that others arent sold by a sales pitch, without having a credible alternative.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 7, 2009)

Oldbeard said:


> Not sure if you can see the price tag in the photo but it was going for $6000.00US last year at an expo.Go to the top of the class, cordylus. It is blatantly obvious that it is a carpondro, just like the snake on the very first page of this thread is blatantly obviously a jag. How would everyone feel if i was to smuggle this into the country and claim it to be an Australian line that I bred here myself.
> 
> 
> If you claimed that it was an Australian line that you bred here yourself I'd think "Oh so Oldbeard is one of the people who are breeding Carpondro's in Australia, I wonder if he's also breeding them with Roughies, there seem to be a few people doing that."
> ...


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## FAY (Feb 7, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> .
> 
> This hobby is a joke sometimes with all the lying backstabbing petty little wanabes around. It really is a messy hobby with jealously running rife.
> 
> .



You will find a few in every hobby........the big motivator being jealousy........they hate to think that someone is more popular, has better animals, maybe making a dollar more than they are and usually accuse that person of being dodgy (or a crook) when they are the ones that are.......sad really.


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## scorps (Feb 7, 2009)

GARTHNFAY said:


> You will find a few in every hobby........the big motivator being jealousy........they hate to think that someone is more popular, has better animals, maybe making a dollar more than they are and usually accuse that person of being dodgy (or a crook) when they are the ones that are.......sad really.


 

Yeah but in true blues case its most people being jelouse of his collection lol


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## indicus (Feb 7, 2009)

I to would be inclined to keep a bag upon my head and hide; in shame...'old school'..I'd prefer 'old fool'.... rhymes 
It's interesting that you; among others; often resort to the use of fortune tellers;
and their abilities to foresee the future with the possibilities of captive release...
I hope your right in foresight; however if and whenever the need arise;
would it be not be beneficial to try and maintain pure blood lines within the hobby to the best of our ability?
Are we as an Australian community of reptile enthusiasts to show concern and forward thinking;
and attempt to grasp an understanding of our own locality morelia morphs before treading where others have done before?
As you hide behind your mask; ask yourself whether you have a sound knowledge of the complexities associated with breeding hybrids;
and their future impact on the hobby?...do you even care?...have you thought it through?
Will you; and others who share your view; claim any responsibility for your actions when the hobby is riddled with hybrid morelia forms;
that only confuse the amateur; resembling nothing more then two animals that share traits seen to occur naturally; in both locality forms? 
'Scare- mongering'... I think not. 

We have all seen that captive breeding/propagation has proven useful towards the restocking and replenishing of all forms of flora and fauna; 
for many years both in Australia and overseas ....
Will the need to do so ever happen with our various locality forms morelia? maybe not....however;
a simple change in legislation or powers to be; possible is it not?
Disease's such as OMPV; habitat destruction etc; are a very real issue's when considering the impact on locality forms...
The reality is; the need to do so may very well arise; as I'm sure you'd agree?
Having said that; I'm sure you'd also realise some of these locality forms already face an uncertain future; as their distribution
is already fragmented; and for the most part are poorly understood...eg names such as 'Cape York' carpet spring to mind.
To take it upon yourself to produce these hybrids/crosses; shows a blatant disregard for our unique fauna; and IMO; to knowingly do so is criminal!!!
It's unbelievable; that those responsible for licensing regardless of state; allow those like yourself to carry out such foolish practises blatantly...
One can only hope that those in positions of influence; are to be seen to possess a balanced view; knowledge and skills required;
to allow the industry/hobby as whole; towards taking 'positive' steps with regards the future of reptile keeping within this country; and it's management.
How does the 'slap-stick' creation of hybrids help further the hobby?; or advance our knowledge of Australia herptafauna?
Am I correct in thinking hybridisation is pursued by novices that wish only to line their pockets through random experimentation;
rather then just wanting to create a desirable colour form?....there's no other excuse to do so is there?
I'm sure we all as reptile enthusiasts can appreciate a beautiful colour form regardless of purity; but at what cost? 
The introduction of the web for the most part; has allowed hobbyist's to come together to share and trade information freely;
which I believe has helped considerably in our understanding towards breeding the many locality forms available these days...
The last few years has seen many stunning locality forms bred for both colour and pattern; with some surprising results...
What more do you want?...

In relevance to this thread; nice Jag's QM....good job in your sly approach towards introducing them into the Australian reptile scene;
shame where not all easily baffled with BS.....have a nice day


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## TrueBlue (Feb 7, 2009)

Very true Fay, its like being back in primary school, only worse.


I like the way the super zebra is "allegedly" a pure animal. This is the perfect example of a shodow of dought put over pure animals, (if infact it is), in countries that constantly hybridise species/sub-species. I would imagine that a large percentage of pure morelia overseas would also have the same shadow of dought over them. I rest my case.

Oldbeard,-
Thats my main arrgument in this thread, to me the animals first posted are jags, not murryfalls jungles x coatals. As most jags these days are crossed with one form of morelia or another, i spose thats why the hybidising debate erupted.


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## Retic (Feb 7, 2009)

Speak for yourself 



scorps said:


> Yeah but in true blues case its most people being jelouse of his collection lol


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 7, 2009)

Pure line breeders also line their pockets! Come on, If your intentions were that noble you would make it affordable for most to be able to keep them. Don't tell me its an art to line breed morelias, they breed without much manipulation. And they breed with anything. If you made it more affordable to buy say black and white jungles, then keepers would not feel the need to experiment. But the market has always been controlled by some of the old timers on this forum. Now their grip on the hobby is slowly loosening on the hobby. Just look at the uproar that happened about gtp prices dropping. Money, money, money! Makes the world go round hey! Let's see the uproar when jags start getting sold for $500 or less. What do you think people will spend their hard earned cash on? I am still going to have a good laugh about this debate in a couple of years time. Ihaveherps: very well posted! I will have a debate with you any day! Why do anti hybrid posters always have to become abusive. (Ihaveherps excluded).


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## Wild~Touch (Feb 7, 2009)

There's a slight possibility that the old timers learnt their *trade* thoroughly from many many years experience

and not from pictures of pretty snakes on the internet.

Never be afraid to take in what the elders of the tribe have to offer


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## WombleHerp (Feb 7, 2009)

DID somebody say HYBRIDS????

 


Nat  x


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## PhilK (Feb 7, 2009)

God this has been going for yonks!

Incidentally, I love QldMorelias new display picture hahaha


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## draqonfly (Feb 7, 2009)

if prices of pure bred lines are much affordable, hell that would be great ! americas snakes are soooooo cheap. why cant we have those prices here?


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## QldMorelias (Feb 7, 2009)

The price of a snake is not determined by how it looks, it's determined by how rare it is. Chondros are now common so their price dropped by 80% in 2 years. it's not that they all became 80% uglier. Roughies were rare so some paid $24,000 a pair, now they are common, and yours for only $3,000

Please don't think that it's easy to produce these animals either. Just reading what went into producing the snake on the front page of the reptiles Australia article is mind boggling. The creation of somthing like that is more advanced than anything being done here.

Locale animals is:
Step 1 Catch 2 animals from the one location
Step 2 Breed them.
Step 3 Repeat step 2 

Not too hard really.


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## caustichumor (Feb 7, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> The price of a snake is not determined by how it looks, it's determined by how rare it is. Chondros are now common so their price dropped by 80% in 2 years. it's not that they all became 80% uglier. Roughies were rare so some paid $24,000 a pair, now they are common, and yours for only $3,000
> 
> Please don't think that it's easy to produce these animals either. Just reading what went into producing the snake on the front page of the reptiles Australia article is mind boggling. The creation of somthing like that is more advanced than anything being done here.
> 
> ...


 Wow, so you actually have to do more then breed two animals together to produce a hybrid? Wow, please let us all know the scientific procedure in place to breed hybrids...


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## cockney red (Feb 7, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> Wow, so you actually have to do more then breed two animals together to produce a hybrid? Wow, please let us all know the scientific procedure in place to breed hybrids...


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Retic (Feb 7, 2009)

Just 4 more pages for the big 50, come on guys.........oh and girls of course.


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## QldMorelias (Feb 7, 2009)

Oh Caustic,
You took me out of context accidentially. Yes agreed it takes no more skill to put 2 subspecies together than it does locale animals. 
The point I was trying to make was not about just putting 2 snakes together, it was line breeding animals on a level that isn't done here. The production of the animals in my Album are the result of highly skilled, dedicated breeders working with animals for multi generations. They haven't come about by pure luck you silly sausage


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## NickM (Feb 7, 2009)

Regarding the super zebra: I was the one who posted the picture originally before it was posted here.

Zebras are pure jungles, there are and no doubt will be more intergrade and hybrid zebras produced but the morph did come from pure cheynei stock originally.

That said they are not locality specific jungles, as there are very few locality jungles in collections outside Australia.

As to the issue of why thee are no co-dom morphs in Australia that someone said a few posts back, the answer is that you do have them of course.

The fact is that there are far more Asutralain snakes prodcued OUTSIDE Australia that there are produced inside. The more that are prodcued the greater the chances of mutations popping up.

The simple fact that our gene pool is limited increases the chance of this happening as we generally have to breed animals that are at least distantly related at best.

Because you guys have a much larger gene pool to draw on the chances of new mutations cropping up , especially recessive ones is much lower.

There are no doubt countless new mutations int he wild carpet population iun Australia, just becasue they have not been found and reproduced does not meant they are not there.

Wasnt it just last year that a new morph of MD carpets was produced in Australia?

Nick


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## zulu (Feb 7, 2009)

*re Some*

Produce a few good pretty snakes from the crosses and euthanize the rest (all the ugly ones that dont make the front cover) thats what happens,all the crap looking jags dont get shown onley the few good ones.


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## junglepython2 (Feb 7, 2009)

QldMorelias said:


> Oh Caustic,
> You took me out of context accidentially. Yes agreed it takes no more skill to put 2 subspecies together than it does locale animals.
> The point I was trying to make was not about just putting 2 snakes together, it was line breeding animals on a level that isn't done here. The production of the animals in my Album are the result of highly skilled, dedicated breeders working with animals for multi generations. They haven't come about by pure luck you silly sausage


 
Or alternativly taking second rate Jags from o/s smuggling them across, breeding them and then claiming they are the result of all your hard work????


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 7, 2009)

Nick 
I seriously doubt we will have a Co dom mutations spring up here .
But if you say inbreeding courses spontanious mutations to turn up like Co dom traits then with the exception of jags and zebras please inform us of these spontanious mutations you speak of ?, 

I would agree that future inbreeding here will produce recessive traits possible unknown to us now . 
But ?

Not Co dom traits ,
or we would have already had co dom traits in our wild populations of reptiles ??
also the murry darling morphs produced here are more than likely recessive in the mode of inheritance .

cheers
Roger


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## QldMorelias (Feb 7, 2009)

Zulu,
I really doubt that they will end up in the freezer. This old chesnut get's wheeled out every few pages or so. Why would you stick them in the freezer when you could show pictures of the good looking siblings and at a minimum sell them for $50 / $100. It's still better than nothing, and still better than freezing them. You freezer happy Purists have got to think of something better than that. 

junglepython2 my current infraction status prevents me from engaging in silly tit for tat bickering. If you see a guy with a paperbag on his head at the expo come and say hello.


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## zulu (Feb 7, 2009)

*re Some*

yeh baggy i suppose you could sell all the ugy crosses for fifty or a hundred or use them for BHP food


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 7, 2009)

Bet you a $1000 that not one of these purists will have the you know what's to confront you at the expo! That's just the power you have when it comes to the internet. Why not just stick a hot warm probe in its reproductive organs. That should stop it from breeding. And why not show all the hatchlings in a clutch of so called pure locale specific animals! By the sounds of it they all are beautiful! Amazing little critters. I wish humans can be as good as so called pure local specific snakes, it would prevent the world from having so many ugly people!


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## Hetty (Feb 7, 2009)

You would lose that bet. People who are passionate about reptiles go to those expos, and would quite happily have a debate or even argument with someone openly hybridising reptiles.


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## BROWNS (Feb 7, 2009)

Just my thoughts on the subject which are that the pics first posted may well be jags and are being made out to be years of hard work of crossbreeding and supposedly making hybrids to try and introduce jags into the hobby.We or most of us know there are jags in the country however there's the problem of legaly introducing them into the hobby so they can be sold otherwise if they can not be brought into the hobby they would be worth jack!!

The first pic in the first post of this thread looks to me like a poor quality BW Jungle and I've seen examples of BW Jungles with much the same patterning that make that animal in the first pic look ugly in comparison,and yest the BW's I've seen have also had practically the exact same head pattern as in the first pic which seems to be a trait many Julatten BW's tend to have ,call them reduced or wierd etc head patterns for jungles as opposed to the classic skull and crossbones normally associated with jungles.So what I'm getting at is that there is no need to cross animals making hybrids to look like the first pic of the animal on the first page as there are PURE BRED animals already being bred here in Australia that look better than any crossbred or hybrid animal does.

The second animal pictured certainly screams jag to me however I have seen lines of Athertons with similar patterning and colour as well as Whitsunday carpets that look very similar.Just take a look at what Jungleland is breeding along with a few others.I myself have seen a Whitsunday carpet that looked very very similar to the second pic with reduced head pattern as well,sorry no pics I could not get close enough to the animal However I do have pics of animals from the Whitsunday area that are very similar to some jags I've seen pics of which I'll find and throw a few pics up.Again there is no need to hybridise animals to try and produce animals that look like this and I highly doubt you would get many animals in a clutch of hybrids that look alike unless there is a genetic trait involved.We do have pure bred animals and wild examples that already look like that without the need to cross breed or hybridise.

The third pic is simply a tri striped jungle which I and I'm sure most of us have seen examples of jungles just the same and are pure bred even right down to the locality just like the first 2 pics previous.I'm sure many people have pics of animals much like this they may want to post up for an example.

The last pic also looks very jag like to me however take a look at many of the animals bred and owned by Jungle Freak"Roger" .He breeds some of the best reduced patterned jungles around and are pure with many pure to locality that look much nicer than the last pic posted of the animal on the first page of this thread.Again another example showing we don't need to cross or hybridise to get the desired look of the animals posted.

Then again that's just an example showing we have pure locality bred both captive and wild type animals that look just as good if not better than the supposed hybrids posted on the first page.If this is someone trying to get jags into the hobby seeing as it's pretty well known there are jags here in Australia brought in or smuggled from overseas just like many of the chondros in the country.The truth will or should show wether these animals are jags or not when they start being sold and someone ends up breeding a pair of these animals ending up with dead leucistics etc.Or when someone breeds one of these animals and a certain percentage produced look just like jags.We have to remember as has been said already that there are usually the best examples of jags we see pics of but for all the stunners bred there are also ugly duclings which we don't see and these will most likely be the animals chosen to get smuggled into Australia.We will also be able to tell if they are jags when some of them,not all,develope neurogical problems which is an affliction suffered by many jags and has been spoken about thoroughly on other forums such as mp.com.

Overall though my opinion for what it's worth is that these are jags other than the striped jungle which I'm assuming a small group of people or some person who are trying to legally bring them into the hobby by saying they are hybrids! If they are hybrids and not jags the variety of offspring from these hybrids will vary so much and you will not consistantly get animals looking like the ones posted and if they are jags it's going to be quite simple to find out.We have so many morphs out there in the wild and captivity which have either never been seen or bred before or are animals ppl own that have certain undiscovered genetic traits and that's with pure animals and with that why the need or want to crossbreed when you can achieve simialr results in most cases better than any hybrids or what they produce.Crossing any morelia with albinos is different again and should remain seperate from the type of supposed hybrids this thread is based on.

Also I thought there were animals with dom or co dom traits such as a few striped lines of coastals and Athertons and I myself produced a full clutch of striped animals from 2 very nice Whitsunday carpets where only one parent was striped and breeding from one of these striped carpets should again produce another clutch of all striped animals proving the trait which would not be recessive but dominant or co dom,I can't remember what the difference is lol 

The th


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## zulu (Feb 7, 2009)

*re Some*



Hetty said:


> You would lose that bet. People who are passionate about reptiles go to those expos, and would quite happily have a debate or even argument with someone openly hybridising reptiles.



Yeh your not wrong,its been going on for along time though the crossing of morelias in australia,the first time i heard it was with Merv hayes in an article around 1970 where he bred a carpet with a diamond.
Plenty get crossed all the time its just that the participants sell the offspring as what they most resemble or make up various names,few are actually written under license as the crosses they are and the offspring are on others books as pure and it goes on and on never to return.few people in australia or overseas admitt to crossing,they are always the result of matings with pure types.


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## krefft (Feb 7, 2009)

BROWNS out of interest what is your view on the albino crosses?

Zulu i agree with your last post. It has been going on along time, and it will continue to go on. With that in mind let it be more out in the open, and if you don't like them, don't buy them. If enough people felt that way there would be no market for them and people would be less inclined to breed crosses.


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## zulu (Feb 7, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> Just my thoughts on the subject which are that the pics first posted may well be jags and are being made out to be years of hard work of crossbreeding and supposedly making hybrids to try and introduce jags into the hobby.We or most of us know there are jags in the country however there's the problem of legaly introducing them into the hobby so they can be sold otherwise if they can not be brought into the hobby they would be worth jack!!
> 
> The first pic in the first post of this thread looks to me like a poor quality BW Jungle and I've seen examples of BW Jungles with much the same patterning that make that animal in the first pic look ugly in comparison,and yest the BW's I've seen have also had practically the exact same head pattern as in the first pic which seems to be a trait many Julatten BW's tend to have ,call them reduced or wierd etc head patterns for jungles as opposed to the classic skull and crossbones normally associated with jungles.So what I'm getting at is that there is no need to cross animals making hybrids to look like the first pic of the animal on the first page as there are PURE BRED animals already being bred here in Australia that look better than any crossbred or hybrid animal does.
> 
> ...



Go away,your making sense bro :lol:


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## SnakePower (Feb 7, 2009)

need to repost, tired!


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## BROWNS (Feb 7, 2009)

I see no reason to cross breed albinos to create new morphs ,depending on the animal crossed with on the whole you would more than likely produce animals that still look like the original Darwin albinos which if you've had a good look vary quite a lot.This is where things can get messy!

There are several Darwin morphs already in the hobby such as striped,hypomelanistic,hypermelanistic,ghost phase which could produce new morphs again and I daresay other very interesting results.Why not keep them pure,they are gorgeous animals already which vary a lotet so why think of what other sub species can you cross it with and try using available different morphs and types of Darwins to breed or have as a breeding project which would be more interesting than hybridising imo.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 7, 2009)

Browns 
If your striped coastals were Co dom or Dominant 
You would get a super form from pairing 2 Co Doms together , ?
Also Dominant means the whole clutch looks exactly like the parent carrying the trait,

Stripes are recessive ,,you will realise this once you have bred more than one clutch of stripes .
Hey Andrew no one can pm you because your mail box quoter is full,
How about deleting those old PMs so people can send you a message etc
Can you email me pics of your new Co Dom morph stripes ,
love to see them, 
cheers
Roger


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## pinkmus (Feb 7, 2009)

Love that melanistic jag


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## NickM (Feb 7, 2009)

There are at least 5 co-dominant carpet mutations and all came from captive breeding outside Australia. Tiger, Tri-stripe, Caramel, jaguar and zebra.

All of these have super forms as well, the jags are the only one that are homozygous lethal.

there are no doubt countless co-dom traits in the wild in Australia they merely have not been found yet.

Virtually all the snake morphs that are bred in captivity are descended from a single founder animal, usually a Wild Caught 

The reason we have so many ball python mutations is that ball pythons are imported byt he tens of thousands each year and all are scrutinized for anything unusuall. 

I can guarentee you that if Australia allowed the export or collection of 10,000 wild carpets each year for 20 years there would be dozens of genetic mutations found in them as well.

For the record there is essentially no difference between a co-dom and a recessive trait, both are interited exactlyt he same way, the only difference is that in the co-doms we have the luxury of visual hets.

Nick


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## Retic (Feb 7, 2009)

QM, it just shows how hard it is to tell Jags from others, in the 2nd photo that is 3 Austin Healeys


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## cement (Feb 7, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> .We will also be able to tell if they are jags when some of them,not all,develope neurogical problems which is an affliction suffered by many jags and has been spoken about thoroughly on other forums such as mp.com.
> 
> Yes I agree, Jags are here in Aus and they are on licence (with conditions placed on them, however a smuggler will circumnavigate any condition).
> 
> ...


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for enlightening us with your fairy tale Nick,
I so look forward to the many many Co Dom morphs that are about to be discovered in the wild and that are about to spontaniously turn up in our collections , just like jags i presume ? lol .

the truth will unfold in the future 
stay tuned

Just curious has anyone done a scale count on the zebra morph ? or jags ?


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## zulu (Feb 7, 2009)

*re Some*



cement said:


> BROWNS said:
> 
> 
> > .We will also be able to tell if they are jags when some of them,not all,develope neurogical problems which is an affliction suffered by many jags and has been spoken about thoroughly on other forums such as mp.com.
> ...


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## indicus (Feb 7, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> Pure line breeders also line their pockets! Come on, If your intentions were that noble you would make it affordable for most to be able to keep them. Don't tell me its an art to line breed morelias, they breed without much manipulation. And they breed with anything. If you made it more affordable to buy say black and white jungles, then keepers would not feel the need to experiment. But the market has always been controlled by some of the old timers on this forum. Now their grip on the hobby is slowly loosening on the hobby. Just look at the uproar that happened about gtp prices dropping. Money, money, money! Makes the world go round hey! Let's see the uproar when jags start getting sold for $500 or less. What do you think people will spend their hard earned cash on? I am still going to have a good laugh about this debate in a couple of years time. Ihaveherps: very well posted! I will have a debate with you any day! Why do anti hybrid posters always have to become abusive. (Ihaveherps excluded).


Please excuse me for having an opinion; which wish's to address the many pitfalls of breeding hybrid type forms...
The only distinction I see ...
Those who intentionally hybridize; fail to address issues that where all aware have the very real possibility;
of polluting how we see morelia in this country from here on; lets here it?...is it plausible an assumption; that they don't care?
To further popularise their crosses; now there seen to use deception; in proving the origins of their 'jag' like morelia...
To those less fortunate to know better; the desire to hybridise becomes an attractive prospect especially if
there's a possibility of breeding an 'aussie jag' by crossing locality form animals.
Pure, hybrid; regardless of type; a nice looking animal will always fetch higher prices; everyone wants the best.
Sadly the markets desire for designer morphs (I'm no exception); has most breeders trying to achieve a better then average animal through refining their lines.
To say theirs no forethought or art in breeding for trait colour or pattern is ridiculous...
gone are the days of just putting two snakes together; have they not?
Whether line breeding locality forms or hybridizing; prices at present reflect an economic slump; or an over all saturation in the hobby of almost all species.
I find it amusing that many of those for hybridisation; attribute the line breeding of locality morphs; to producing animals that display little resemblance to their wild counter parts....line breeding only accentuates pattern/colour and endeavours to achieve a higher percentage of desired traits per clutch.

It's not a matter of Purists (don't you love labels) verses hybridisation; but what's best for future of our morelia and the hobby in this country.
I commend those keepers who are honest; even though I; and others may not agree in practise...
However when it's done without addressing these issues; forgive me in thinking;
it shows a lack insight or concern for the future of the many locality forms now available.
On that note; publications use pretty snakes to sell mag's and in all fairness to show what's out there; this is commendable.
Would it also be sound journalism and probably in the interests of us all; to discuss with readers the possibilities and issues with regards to breeding hybrid type animals....just a thought.

Cordylus you seem to have a few user names on this site 
as expressed in my post; there are many pure lines available; take your pick.
I will if you wish; entertain your cheap shot at my animals...
I feel that I've gone out of my way to supply the buyer the best animals I can; often passing onto customers what other breeders would hold back.
Incidentally I've given the pick of the best I've bred away for the last three seasons; as long as I've been breeding the B/W's 
You'd may be surprised to know I've probably given away as many animals as I've sold; not quite; but a lot none the less ...it's not all about money to some of us.
I whole sale most of the animals I breed these days...what more do you expect from me?
I'll now leave you to do your research; who knows you may surprise me by contributing something worth while; in one way or another.


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## m.punja (Feb 7, 2009)

QLDmorelia, Thank you for being to scared to identify yourself and too ashamed to let people know who you are because the photo's of you hiding your mug behind that paper bag have been keeping me laughing . Thank goodness you aren't more proud of your hybrids and actually admited who you are or this thread wouldn't be anywhere near as funny.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 8, 2009)

Who says I was talking about you indicus? Point taken. Honesty I guess, is the issue. As well as the lynch mob.


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## indicus (Feb 8, 2009)

Cordylus said:


> Who says I was talking about you indicus? Point taken. Honesty I guess, is the issue. As well as the lynch mob.



I wonder why I thought you were talking about me; seemed to be the obvious.
And yes honesty is an issue.....
If people like me can keep our biased opinions to ourselves; just maybe we'll hear from those breeding and trading in hybrid forms; sure they'll be willing to answer a few questions to help put my mind to rest...I don't want to lynch anyone


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Feb 8, 2009)

There will never be a correct answer! What's right to you and what's right to me can be two different answers. Could you explain your theory Roger? About the origin of co dom traits in Aussie morelias? I would also like to hear your theories about recessive traits.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 8, 2009)

Cordylus 
Well we dont have true Co dom traits in the wild now and never will ,
i believe we only have recessive traits in our reptile populations here ,
its that simple ,
if we did have reptiles with Co Dom traits ? then by its mode of inheritance , 
ie half of all offspring from a Co dom trait would be co dom as well .?
this would mean there should be lots of co dom jags and zebras in the wild ?
but there are no such morphs in the wild,
The Co Dom traits would be more common in the wild than albinos ? but we have none ?
Look at the mode of inheritance ?????????

So far all our natural occuring colour or pattern phases are recesive by mode of inheritance,
even stripes , but with stripes you have a far more complicated mode of inheritance than simple recessive , but they are still recessive in my view .


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## cris (Feb 8, 2009)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Cordylus
> Well we dont have true Co dom traits in the wild now and never will ,
> i believe we only have recessive traits in our reptile populations here ,
> its that simple ,
> .



:shock:


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## cement (Feb 8, 2009)

indicus said:


> ; just maybe we'll hear from those breeding and trading in hybrid forms; sure they'll be willing to answer a few questions to help put my mind to rest...I don't want to lynch anyone


 
This is a very good point, a debate on the pro's and con's of hybrids.
A full on, open book discussion so that anyone contemplating buying them can have an informative base to help make the decision.
I can't help but think that the way they are being eased into the system right now is nothing but typical of money hungry worms. Lets face it, some clown with a bag over his head:lol: telling us their the next best thing so get on board,Lol...Nameless, and hiding in the shadows gives ya less credibility than a shonky car dealer!! Must be good product if you can't be proud of it aye....

Imagine how the actual blokes that bought the cane toad over feel now!
Or someone who let go of a Burmese or two into the everglades cause it got too big for ya,


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## Hetty (Feb 8, 2009)

What about melanistic blue tongueds? they're co-dom. The melanistic carpet probably is too.. amongst other things we don't know about.


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## waruikazi (Feb 8, 2009)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Cordylus
> Well we dont have true Co dom traits in the wild now and never will ,
> i believe we only have recessive traits in our reptile populations here ,
> its that simple ,
> ...



I don't know that we can say things like that with any real certainty, i know you hold out the possibility of future morphs but there are carpet morphs in Australian collections that are yet to be bred from. Take the black darwins for example (yes there is an 's' on the end of darwin because there is more than just one that is black) as far as i am aware they have not been bred so we do not how this trait is passed on.

I've caught a wild darwin that was so dark you can hardly see a pattern and it's belly scales from about half way down have been solid black (it is in captivity and not held by me). It's only speculation but the black animals could be the super form of this type of snake. Then there's the funky MD's that old mate from a different forum bred the other season. Then there are snakes like this one below that i caught last year and is now held in captivity (not by me), it's all speculation and chances are nothing will come of it but there is the possibility that it could have a super form.


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## NickM (Feb 9, 2009)

there are co-doms mutations in every species , in the wild, its that you may never find them before they are predated.

I can give you a list of nearly 50 co-dom mutations that have been found in the wild, just in the various python species. Why would you think carpets are different?

Ivory Bloods, Ivory Balls and Ivoy retics, all are co-dom and all were from WC founders. In each of these cases there have been wild caught SUPERS!!! and wild caught hets.

There are tons of co-dom retic morphs, all from wild stock, there are so many co-dom ball pythons I cant even shink of them all, but its at least 40.

Hypo, jungle, motley , all boa constrictor co-dom traits and all from wild stock

There are at least 5 co-dom blood python mutations, and again ALL are from wild stock!!!

There is even a new co-dom blood morph that is EXACTLY the same mutation as the zebra jungle, it even has the same patternless super phase, and you guessed it, all from wild stock.

with co-doms you rarely find wild supers, usually its the visible hets, and in many of these mutations the visible hets may only be subtley different than normals. Carpets are so variable that many of these sublte co-dom hets might go unoticed, or it would be thought to be the natural variation within the species. its sometines only after the super is produced that some breeders figure out what is happening.

Nick


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

WARUIKAZI quote
I don't know that we can say things like that with any real certainty, i know you hold out the possibility of future morphs but there are carpet morphs in Australian collections that are yet to be bred from. Take the black darwins for example (yes there is an 's' on the end of darwin because there is more than just one that is black) as far as i am aware they have not been bred so we do not how this trait is passed on.
end quote 


Gordon
Im talking about the mode of inheritance ?
Not that we will never find any more wild morphs .
The hypermelanistic darwins will be a recessive mode of inheritance ,
Roger



Nick M quote
there are co-doms mutations in every species , in the wild, its that you may never find them before they are predated.

I can give you a list of nearly 50 co-dom mutations that have been found in the wild, just in the various python species
end quote 


Ok Thanks Nick
Thats the info i was after .
But mate with all those Co dom traits being found in the wild elsewhere ?
but none here ?,
Sort of confirms my theory that we have none .
Also with regards to Jags and Zebras these are Co dom traits that popped up in captivity ?
How can a Co Dom trait just turn up like this ?
and are you saying Co Dom traits randomly turn up from inbreeding in captivity ?
If so please give some other examples ,

cheers
Roger


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## QldMorelias (Feb 9, 2009)

Imagine the strangest looking carpet and I'll bet that at some stage one very similar fed a kookaburra.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

So QLD morelias 
im naive ???
i wonder what you are ?? ,

Last time i looked around i cant find any Co Dom traits being produced in oz legally .


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## moreliainsanity (Feb 9, 2009)

Hi Roger,

No offence but you have been posting this theory of yours on a few forums and everytime i read it i just shook my head, like what gordo said :
"I don't know that we can say things like that with any real certainty, i know you hold out the possibility of future morphs but there are carpet morphs in Australian collections that are yet to be bred from"
What make you think that you can make such statement, what sort of research can back you up with comments as such?

and because someone don't agree you threathened to destroy them:lol:


Leigh


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

Leigh 
its only a my belief 
i could be wrong ? sure.
if we do have Co dom traits turn up thats great
But please dont expect me to accept overseas Co Dom traits as pure australian genetics.


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## Kersten (Feb 9, 2009)

Roger,

I really think you need to settle down a bit. You're not just starting dramas with people who're doing the wrong thing, you're attacking the breeding ethics of people trying to make the same point you are. Shame really, because what's needed to help slow (if not stop) jag breeding is more of a unified stance.


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## moreliainsanity (Feb 9, 2009)

Roger,

I don't expect you to accept overseas Co Dom traits as pure australian genetics as much as i dont accept you to be making your past statement especially on a few forums. there's a lot of newbies here that reads and learn and i just don't think it's fair to promote your "BELIEF"
with such certainty it is not right. no one's really contradict you in the past which makes your thery looks "RIGHT". we are not talking about overseas co dom traits but australian animals.

Leigh


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

the theory about Co dom traits being a non native issue is up for grabs,
Sorry if i offended anyone ,


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## Retic (Feb 9, 2009)

[edited] Not worth the hassle.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

Ashley please show me the super form of hypo bredli,
you are seriously funny old mate
TRUE Co dom traits produce super forms ,
like jags produce leucistics


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## Hetty (Feb 9, 2009)

Er.. okay, I'll say it again. What about melanistic blue tongueds? They're co-dominant.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

So there are visual hets for hypermelanism , but are there also non visable hets ?
i was going to ask John W this but i have not gotton around to it ,
Also read carefully Co Dom traits produce super forms,
the super form is drastically different to the Co Dom trait carrior ,
All thats happening in the visable hets in melanistic blue tongues is that the true form is expressed , a hypermelantistic blue tongue.
I suspect you can have non visable hets also for hypermelanism and visual hets also,
but only John W could answer this ?

i could be wrong


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## Hetty (Feb 9, 2009)

I don't think you have a very good grasp on what a co-dominant trait is. Stop thinking 'super form', start thinking 'visual hets'. If it has visual hets, it's generally co-dominant.

You're using a few examples that have clear 'super forms'. Start thinking outside the box. Look at rex rats, for example. A rex rat has fur that is sort of curly, a double rex has fur that is curlier. For the human example of a co-dominant trait, curly hair. You could say a "normal" human has straight hair, a "het" human has wavy hair, and a double het, or "super" has curly hair.

eta: this is from Snake Ranch:
http://www.snakeranchnews.com.au/pages/news.cfm?naction=news2
"[FONT=Arial,Garamond]*Hypermelanism, at least in this instance, appears to defy the usual dominant/recessive inheritance rules in that the heterozygotes express an abnormal, possibly intermediate colouration, suggesting a 'co-dominant' inheritance mechanism. Snake Ranch keeper Kevin Smith is holding the founder female in his left hand, and one of the mature heterozygotes she produced in late 2002 in his right."
"*[/FONT]Interestingly, upon arrival, the 'het for black' young were not entirely normal in appearance as would be predicted in the usual 'dominant/recessive' genetics model. All were quite dark at birth, and during the months to follow became progressively darker, finishing up as exceptionally dark bluetongues - no doubt qualifying for the description of 'melanistic'. This abnormal colouration for the hets suggests that the genetic control of the condition of 'hypermelanism' (in this case, anyway) may reflect the interaction of 'co-dominant' genes."
[FONT=Arial,Garamond][/FONT]


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## waruikazi (Feb 9, 2009)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Gordon
> Im talking about the mode of inheritance ?
> Not that we will never find any more wild morphs .
> The hypermelanistic darwins will be a recessive mode of inheritance ,
> Roger



Roger i am talking about the mode of inheritance too. We simply don't know what the mode of inheritance is for the melanistic carpets, i am speculating and it is nothing more than an idea that the melanistic darwins are a super form. And i am saying that we have morphs in the hobby, both confirmed and rumoured, that are yet to be bred from and to say things like this:

_Well we dont have true Co dom traits in the wild now and never will _

Is absolutely nothing more than speculation and i think you should acknowledge that. 

BTW i never get offended :lol:


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

Mammal and reptile genetics are totally different 
OK , if striped patterns in australian pythons are Co Dom,
Then how come banded jungles can produce semi striped or striped jungle 
the only way is if both were hets for some striping 
look at all the other overseas reptile Co Dom traits the super form if very different to the Co Dom


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## Hetty (Feb 9, 2009)

I also think the melanistic carpets will be co-dominant. The one I've seen (that picture floating around) shows a very dark brown (almost black) carpet, like the very dark brown (almost black) blue tongueds. But yeah, time will tell.


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## moreliainsanity (Feb 9, 2009)

boa said:


> [edited] Not worth the hassle.


 
Hi Boa,

I know what you mean but if we keep thinking it's not worth the hassle we will just see false promotion and everyone will be reading statements that does not have any concrete evidence to back it up............at least I got to read what you wrote before you edited.

Leigh


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## Nagraj (Feb 9, 2009)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Mammal and reptile genetics are totally different



errr, no!


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

whatever


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## Hetty (Feb 9, 2009)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Mammal and reptile genetics are totally different dumbo



Hahaha, dumbo? You're mature, I'll be sure to respect your opinion :lol:

I was using an example to show you how co-dominant traits work, not saying that snakes have curly hair. Are you saying that reptiles don't follow Mendelian genetics like mammals?

If you can't understand that melanistic blue tongueds are co-dominant because they don't produce super tigers or leucistics, then you're not worth arguing with, and no peer reviewed journal will accept your writing.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

Yes my apologies Hetty 
your right
i no nothing 
everyone is right 
cheers


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## moreliainsanity (Feb 9, 2009)

Hetty said:


> Hahaha, dumbo? You're mature, I'll be sure to respect your opinion :lol:
> 
> I was using an example to show you how co-dominant traits work, not saying that snakes have curly hair. Are you saying that reptiles don't follow Mendelian genetics like mammals?
> 
> If you can't understand that melanistic blue tongueds are co-dominant because they don't produce super tigers or leucistics, then you're not worth arguing with, and no peer reviewed journal will accept your writing.


 
Well Said.........


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 9, 2009)

We will see about that when i finished my paper 
thanks for your imput


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