# Gorgeous Death Adders! Urururururur!



## Sdaji (Feb 23, 2006)

Hi all,

I've been waiting to get some Djarra Death Adders, I've passed on a few over the years, patiently waiting for the right ones to come along, and now I have them! I'm absolutely thrilled! I picked them up from their airport late this morning, then, while driving with them in my lap, heading into the city, at high noon to the minute, in the hot sun, a naked guy ran out in front of the car! :shock: Well, that has nothing to do with the adders really, but it was something you don't see every day!

Anyway, driving past that obstacle, I brought them home and in true APS style, the first thing I did was to take some pictures. I've named them (yes, naming snakes is pathetic, I know) Telson (the male) and Sleaze (the female).

A few people knew about my desire to get Djarra adders, and know I only wanted good ones, so when the ad for these came up, I soon had a few text messages letting me know about it! (Thanks guys!  ) I actually decided that I didn't have the time or money to take them on, but fortunately during the 20 or so hours it took me to crack, no one else snapped them up, so I have to thank each and every person who didn't buy these while I hesitated, allowing me to once again bite off more than I can chew 

Sleaze:

Here is young Sleaze:







here is her lure (the spine is where they get their generic name)






Here is her pretty face






And here it is again, for those who want another look.






And finally, here is Telson.


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## swampie (Feb 24, 2006)

Very nice sdaj , obviously well worth the wait .


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## MrBredli (Feb 24, 2006)

Nice paint job, you can hardly tell it's an albino.


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## pugsly (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow stunning mate, nice purchase!! 

Love those close ups!


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## constrictor (Feb 24, 2006)

they are awesome well done buddy.


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

Very pretty and good to see they have names  Nice photography too.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 24, 2006)

nice adders sadji, yes there the best in the country imo, better than the pilbara adders even.


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## NinaPeas (Feb 24, 2006)

They are fantastic animals, and awesome photos! Not often you get to look an adder that close in the face


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## zulu (Feb 24, 2006)

*re Gorgeous*

Love the color of those guys sadgi,such awsum looking adders!


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## SNKMST (Feb 24, 2006)

Stunning Mate, well done and definatly worth the wait.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2006)

Ditto  Stunning animals, great pics and definitely worth the wait


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## ErisKSC (Feb 24, 2006)

OhNO! Sdaji now i want some!

They are spectacular!!!


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## moosenoose (Feb 24, 2006)

Thats awesome Sadge! Take care  hehe


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## moosenoose (Feb 24, 2006)

*Doll her up Sadge! *


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## junglemad (Feb 24, 2006)

that is a fish face only a herper could love


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

moosenoose said:


> *Doll her up Sadge! *



Sacrilege :!: 
Plus I think that shade of lippy doesnt suit a redhead.


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## Gerry (Feb 24, 2006)

very nice sdaji. theyre a couple of the nicer ones Ive seen mate. u have to be happy with them


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

Thanks everyone, knowing that you're all drooling over them too helps me to feel that little bit more conceited :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 

Moose: hahaha! That's shocking, but I suppose you've depicted her living up to her name, even down to the inappropriate choice of lippy! (Or so we're told  ) Funny stuff 

Fish faces are pretty 

It's difficult to catch their true colours, when I saw the ad's picture I liked them but was told they look even better in the flesh, which I found to be true. I'd never photographed Djarra adders until yesterday, sitting on the lids of their new tubs between opening the bags and popping them inside. Hopefully I'll get some time to play around with them and the camera, and get some nicer shots. I can probably manage a better background than semi transparent blue lids too!  Adders are the best photography snakes I've played with, they're so cooperative and these two are at least as good as my Barklies


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## zen (Feb 24, 2006)

Magnificent photos of beautiful specimens Sdaji.

That front-on headshot is awesome 8) 
Superlatives are inadequate to describe it and your photography in general.
If you ever get sick of science, wildlife photography beckons.  

What species of "spine snake" is this?


P.S - I'd be getting a watermark on those PDQ if IwuzU ! 

P.P.S - Just wait a few minutes till I get a chance to download them :wink:


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## Deb64 (Feb 24, 2006)

WOW SD, 
They are awesome. The pics are fantastic.
Geat addition to your collection 
BTW..I love the eyelashes Moose added....tarts her right up 

Cheers Deb


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

zen said:


> Magnificent photos of beautiful specimens Sdaji.
> 
> That front-on headshot is awesome 8)
> Superlatives are inadequate to describe it and your photography in general.
> ...



     You're far too kind! (I'm almost wondering what you want from me!  ) Thanks for your compliments!

Reptile taxonomy is a contravesial area, is seems that everyone who does the tiniest bit of work on a group wants to add their piece and put a new name on something (it's difficult for some people to do some work and say "oh, I found that I can leave things as they were"). In my opinion, all death adders are the same species, if you check most books you'll find that the Djarras are _Acanthophis antarcticus_ and if you talk to some people you'll get all sorts of weird and wonderful stories. As long as we keep things locality pure, not taxa pure, this will never be an issue and a Djarra adder will be a Djarra adder.


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## zen (Feb 24, 2006)

Ah! So its a regional variant of _antarcticus_.
Thanks for the wrap.
No wonder I couldn't find it in any reference books. :? 




> I'm almost wondering what you want from me!


I'll PM the details. :lol: 

Feel free to watermark now :wink: (see P.S edit above)


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## Rennie (Feb 24, 2006)

Beautiful adders, easily the best I've seen in my limited experience!


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't figure these were worth watermarking, I'd actually love someone to try to pass them off as their own on the internet, it would be so easy to show them up for it and although the snakes are nice, the photography isn't anything special, so it would be extra embarassing for them 

Yes, as far as any books are concerned, Djarras are a regional variant of _A.antarcticus_, which I agree with, although I'd likely not argue if someone labelled them as a distinct subspecies. I consider my Barkly adders to be _Acanthophis antarcticus hawkei_ although many would call them _Acanthophis hawkei_, while others still would simply call them _Acanthophis antarcticus (antarcticus)_. There are some Barkly hybrids going around, being passed off as pure Barklies, which is sad. Some people say that Djarras are very similar to Barklies, some say that a Djarra is basically a red, yellow and black Barkly, while others laugh at that suggestion, saying that Djarras are more like a typical antarcticus, while the Barklies are quite distinct. I can say for sure that both the "Anthony's lagoon" type Barklies and the Djarra adders (whatever you want to ally them with!) are two of my favourite forms or one of my favourite species of snake 

It's probably about time I took some more pictures of my Barklies. I took some just after I bought my first and second digital cameras and have left it at that. Here is my Barkly girl, I think this was the first picture I took of her, she was about a year old at the time (from rough memory).







(This picture is crap, feel free to steal it  )


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## craig.a.c (Feb 24, 2006)

They are stunning. Some of the best looking adders I have seen for a while.


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## Rennie (Feb 24, 2006)

I love the background, I think she's turning me on :wink: 
But no vens for me, I have to draw the line somewhere.


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## yommy (Feb 24, 2006)

You must be happy Sdaji congratulations speccie looking snakes. 
Djarras are defineatley one of the nicest in the adders family, 
though i do believe barklies are up there too.


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

I sure am happy, after about four years of waiting and only having them for a day, I'm still buzzing 

The Barklies are nice looking and quite distinctive, but I think the main appeal of the Barklies is that they're the largest, fastest and most powerful of the death adders. Going purely on colour and pattern, the Djarras wipe them out


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## yommy (Feb 24, 2006)

I agree. A friend of mine has both and they are awesome, if the wife would let me the Djarras would be the first I'd get in a flash, unfortunately though she's a python only gal. I get my venomous fix by doing callout in my local town, got a nice kingy last night.


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## herpnadel (Feb 24, 2006)

nice looking adders if you breed them put me down for 1 or 2


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## lutzd (Feb 24, 2006)

VERY nice, Sdaji. .. and I love the photography! Don't put yourself down! Were you holding the camera _that_ close to them or did you crop one taken from further away! Doubt if I'd be game to get that close! :shock: ...and when you say you drove home with them in your lap, I'm _*assuming*_ they were in a bag????? I'd hate to have to put a constrictive bandage on THAT particular area of your anatomy! Nah, I think I'd just let you go!  ;-) "Sad, but waddyagonnado?"


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

Thanks Lutzy 

I'm glad you like the pictures, but they're nothing special at all, they only have appeal because the subjects are nice. The camera was probably about 10cm from the snake for the head shots, very roughly, these Djarras are so placid and if they're in the right position you can safely get pretty well as close as you like, as long as you come in from the front (you could get away with just about anything with snakes this docile, but these days I try to keep on the side of caution). Posting the full sized versions would get me into trouble again! (I've finally broken due to the pressure and will generally post only itsy bitsy pictures for the forseeable future). Yes, they were bagged seperately. I had them in my lap because the passenger seat was in the sun and I didn't want them overheating, it was a fairly hot day yesterday. Yeah, bandaging that up might be troublesome, perhaps that's what the free spirited runner was trying to remind me of 

herpnadel: I can put you on the list if you like, but I don't expect to be trying for babies for a while, possibly early '08, so don't hold your breath  Perhaps I'll have some Barklies a little bit sooner, fingers crossed 

It's a great shame that being venomous puts a lot of people off keeping adders, they really are so beautiful and interesting, very low maintenance and just look at those lures  It's exciting to have some white lured adders and the Djarras seem to have impressive spines. If adders were non venomous I wouldn't be surprised if they were the most popular pet snakes in Australia. Unfortunately most people don't get/take the chance to appreciate them.


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## SLACkra (Feb 24, 2006)

> . If adders were non venomous I wouldn't be surprised if they were the most popular pet snakes in Australia.



agreed.

what is the affect of their venom on your average sized human? 

andrew


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## lutzd (Feb 24, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about the itsy bitsy pics - you've only used 2.4MB of your quota so go for your life! Especially with pics like those. ;-)


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

I cant remember, my Greek is poor and noone else has asked so I will...... does acantho mean spur or thorn in greek?? Is that what you mean by their lure being the reason for their generic name?  
Perhaps Zoe might know?


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## solitarydiver (Feb 24, 2006)

Just Like asking a woman how old she is....You Don't ask...I DO ..... But I have To HOW MUCH?????


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

SLACkra said:


> > . If adders were non venomous I wouldn't be surprised if they were the most popular pet snakes in Australia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the size and type of the adder is generally more important than the size of the human  Apparently venom toxicity and yield (and perhaps composition too) cary dramatically between the different races. Death adders are in their own venom 'family', the venom is mainly neurotoxic and gives you a bunch of nasty symptoms which can include localised pain, nausea, paralysis and death. I've heard that Barklies have the strongest venom and/or highest yield and I certainly would never want to take a dose of venom from one. My female Barkly I imagine would be a particularly bad one to get bitten by, she is as large as any adder I've ever seen (around 3', I've heard many stories of much larger adders and don't doubt such animals exist, but I'm yet to see one) and when she feeds you can see her pumping in the venom very enthusiastically! I've never fed her live food but my guess is that it wouldn't be live for long at all. Having said that, I'd rather take a bite from a death adder than from several others including brown snakes and mulga snakes. As long as you're careful and not stupid, you can avoid being bitten, most of the time you'll be okay even if you are stupid and careless. Death adders are particularly easy snakes to work with safely as long as you're careful, the only real danger is that they are often so easy going and friendly that you can become complacent.


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

Lutzy: that's because I use my own hosting for pictures 

Olive: Acanthopis means 'spine snake' and refers to their terminal spines. Not all scientific names are Greek by the way, most(?) are Latin, the original ones were and really, all should be.


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

[quote="Sdaji
Death adders are in their own venom 'family', the venom is mainly neurotoxic and gives you a bunch of nasty symptoms which can include localised pain, nausea, paralysis and death. .[/quote]

That last symptom is particularily nasty :shock: 
They are very lovely but not for someone as clumsy as me. Keep the pics coming so as I can dream. May I ask what sort of camera you use?


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## Rennie (Feb 24, 2006)

I saw one once the owner claimed was 4 foot but I wasn't going to measure it, the only one i saw up close was one of his hatchy's with a full belly. Everyone I've spoken to who keeps them say that they're very docile and easy to look after but I'd very quickly find myself single and homeless if I got one (its sad I know, but I STILL live with my parents at 23) :cry:


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Lutzy: that's because I use my own hosting for pictures
> 
> Olive: Acanthopis means 'spine snake' and refers to their terminal spines. Not all scientific names are Greek by the way, most(?) are Latin, the original ones were and really, all should be.



Whats wrong with Greek? :wink: Probably most scientific names are latin as you said but acanthophis sounds Greek to me? I shall investigate :idea:


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## herpnadel (Feb 24, 2006)

yeah def put me down for some ill wait for good animals like that have you been bitten by any of your vens?


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

Olive: yeah, that's how they got the first part of their common name  (next you'll be asking how they got their specific name  )

What pictures would you like to see? I've done the full bodies and closeups, any requests? The Djarra pictures were taken with a Nikon 4600, the Barkly pictures with my old Nikon, which was from the same range of Nikons and had an identical lens.

Rennie: I've seen a few which had owners claiming they were 1m, 4' etc etc too :lol: I've also seen carpets with owners claiming they are 13-15' :lol: Funnily enough, I find that once snakes get to a genuinely large size (9-10' carpet, 80-90 adder etc) the owners are slightly more genuine about their sizes. The monsters generally turn out to be large but not at all unusual in length. I think there are some genuine 120-130cm adders out there, perhaps one day my female Barkly will get there. Apparently her grandmother was just over 4' (measured after she died, the body is still in a freezer).

Sounds like you'll have some adders in the not too distant future


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

olivehydra said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > Lutzy: that's because I use my own hosting for pictures
> ...



The original scientific name (actually, the entire description of the species) was done in Latin, as it was the language of the scientific community at the time. The scientists all spoke different languages, so the whole lot was done in Latin, so that it would be common ground for all. Being a dead language, Latin was fair for all. Using Greek (or anything else) is a break with this tradition and causes inconsistency. Unfortunately, many people do now use non Latin names, there are many (I think the Japanese may be particularly lazy in this way, simply giving things Japanese names). I don't know of any English words being used in Scientific names, but if it was so, it would be unfair for anyone else and very confusing. If it is all Latin, it not only keeps with tradition, but if someone is unaware of the meaning of the name, and they don't happen to be fluent in every language ever created, they can simply grab a Latin to their language dictionary and find the answer. If they are in all languages and you're curious about the meaning, well, tough luck, there's not much you can do. Some nations are particularly arrogant and selfish in their use of language, which generally reflects the attitude of the people (I'd refrain from using France as an example, but clearly they want to be singled out as arrogant, otherwise they wouldn't behave the way they do!). Some other people have simply not bothered with any sort of system and used names such as Liasis (which means nothing) or Morelia (which I think is a town in Mexico, with no apparent connection to snakes).


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

Herpnadel: back in the 90's as a stupid teenager I recieved a couple of dry bites from captive tigersnakes, once while hand feeding thawed mice and once during horribly careless maintenance. I've been envenomated once, by a large tiger snake, after freehandling it for about fifteen minutes. I can't claim any sort of dignified excuse, I can't even say it was due to lack of skill as by the time of my first bite I was quite a capable handler, when I wanted to be sensible. As a young and impressionable teenager I saw the 'big' snake guys freehandling and had discussions with them about their envenomations and their attitude that it was just a normal part of being a snakey. I watched snake shows and was the kid who would wait until it was over so I could talk to the showman, sometimes I'd even talk them into letting me jump into the display after the crowd had gone and I'd freehandle the deadly snakes. If I'd been surrounded by knowledgable and skilled reptile people I respected, who thought of being bitten as something which showed a horrible lack of skill or judgement, I'd have been inspired never to take risks and I'm sure would not have been bitten. Apart from the result of stupid behaviour, I've never had a close call and with any luck at all I'll never take another bite from a highly venomous snake.


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Olive: yeah, that's how they got the first part of their common name  (next you'll be asking how they got their specific name  )
> 
> What pictures would you like to see? I've done the full bodies and closeups, any requests? The Djarra pictures were taken with a Nikon 4600, the Barkly pictures with my old Nikon, which was from the same range of Nikons and had an identical lens.



I hazard a guess that they are not found in Antarctica, but are they not the most southern of the adders??? I grew up in Canberra and we found them there. I dont know??
Closeup pics are my fav, but if you're offering, a pic or two of adder enclosures would also be of interest  I dont suppose you had the camera handy when you were driving home from the airport??? Pm those if you did :wink:


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

Antarctica means anti arctic (the north), which makes sense. antarcticus hasa similar meaning, but is an adjective, not a noun. I suppose anti north is just a fancy way of saying south 

The enclosures are pretty boring, they have water bowls and for the first time I'm keeping snakes on breeder's choice (that's what they were on before I got them, I figured I'd have a go with them). Funnily enough, whenever I drive down that road I reach for my camera, because the view is quite picturesque. The roads are lined with palm trees and there is a great view of the silhouette of the Melbourne CBD directly ahead (between the palm trees). I actually fetched my camera and was holding it, then thought I might as well not bother this time as I have a heap of shots of that view. It was moments after I'd replaced my camera that I spotted the free spirited jogger! I'm not sure whether I should be happy or sad about it!


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## herpnadel (Feb 24, 2006)

i found a death adder out front of my chicks house on coffin bay sa i diddnt no hey were even here i was wrapped to cee it laying there i wonted to pick it up but didnt cos only had my bare hands


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## herpnadel (Feb 24, 2006)

what other vens do you got and pics pls


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

OK, time for the big questions..... you can only have one or the other, waters or adders?
Serious question... I have read many things on venemoids but have often wondered if folk who who keep vens believe their charges inject venom when feeding on dead prey, thus the school of thought that venom helps with the digestive process, and thus just another reason against voids. Probably very hard to judge I would imagine, but if feeding dead prey, do you get strike and release behaviour or do they just tuck in? Probably a seperate thread so ignore if you wish :wink:


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## Sdaji (Feb 24, 2006)

Water Pythons over Adders, no question there.

I have no doubt at all that they envenomate dead prey. I think you can often get some idea of how much venom they put in, as I said earlier in the thread, my female Barkly seems particularly keen to pump a lot in. Whether or not this is important in digestion, I don't really know, however, it is quite clear that they are perfectly capable of digesting their food without venom. My guess is that venom would aid digestion, but if it isn't there, they'll just produce slightly more gastric enzymes to compensate. Since venom is 'expensive' to produce, this should give the snake a 'net cost', in fact, since venom is primarily designed to kill/immobilise, not to digest, the gastric enzymes are probably a more efficient way of going about it, so the venomoid snakes are likely at an advantage, purely looking at things from a physiological point of view. Of course, this is more speculation than anything else and purely from a digestive point of view I'd be inclined to leave snakes as they are, simply because of the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' rule of thumb which will generally guide us safely through life.

You'd expect that they'd be capable of digesting food without venom, just in case for some reason they need to, and the empirical evidence confirms it. I must say, I feel somewhat comforted knowing that my snakes are unaltered.

The venomoid debate seems to be really raging lately, I'm not quite sure why, but the debate is largely being fuelled by hoser on the one hand and the collecting hatred of him on the other. In most cases, it's a moot point as anyone who wants to do it will quietly go off and do so (and possibly lose a few snakes along the way, but there ya go) while the rest will yell and scream about how evil it is, the only effect being that hoser will be glad that once again his controversy has gained him exposure.


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## olivehydra (Feb 24, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Water Pythons over Adders, no question there.
> 
> I have no doubt at all that they envenomate dead prey. I think you can often get some idea of how much venom they put in, as I said earlier in the thread, my female Barkly seems particularly keen to pump a lot in. Whether or not this is important in digestion, I don't really know, however, it is quite clear that they are perfectly capable of digesting their food without venom. My guess is that venom would aid digestion, but if it isn't there, they'll just produce slightly more gastric enzymes to compensate. Since venom is 'expensive' to produce, this should give the snake a 'net cost', in fact, since venom is primarily designed to kill/immobilise, not to digest, the gastric enzymes are probably a more efficient way of going about it, so the venomoid snakes are likely at an advantage, purely looking at things from a physiological point of view. Of course, this is more speculation than anything else and purely from a digestive point of view I'd be inclined to leave snakes as they are, simply because of the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' rule of thumb which will generally guide us safely through life.
> 
> ...



Very well put. I am against voids personally but know little of Rays perspective. From the little I know he has made some positive contributions to herpetoculture but perhaps equally negative ones? Such is life. Perhaps some more intimate study of vens could be made without the dangers involved dealing with voids, I dont know? My fear is that with the ever increasing popularity with herps, voids may find a niche in the newbie community, purely at the expense of the animals. Keep them real and exercise caution I say. Having said that, a snake with a docked tail and stitched cloaca would make for a cleaner and more streamlined inner-city pet, albeit short lived :wink: 
Out of interest, surely most herp vets would refuse to perform the procedure, or is it a case of backyard surgery?


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## peterescue (Feb 24, 2006)

As Sdaji rightly points out the main area of debate over voiding is based on a dislike of Hoser. There are many reasons for this and that he will respond. The same debate has never taken place over ARPs use of venomoids in their outside pits.
Similarly I dont see debates raging over the scent glands being surgically removed from ferrets.


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## zulu (Feb 24, 2006)

*re Gorgeous*



peterescue said:


> As Sdaji rightly points out the main area of debate over voiding is based on a dislike of Hoser. There are many reasons for this and that he will respond. The same debate has never taken place over ARPs use of venomoids in their outside pits.
> Similarly I dont see debates raging over the scent glands being surgically removed from ferrets.


 Just humans mutilating other animals,we mutilate our own species with clitoris and penis cicumcision and dont forget carpet bombing thats showbizz hey


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2006)

I can't recall hoser ever contributing anything of value (anyone who thinks he has must surely not have been following his antics for very long), although he makes no shortage of claims, including being responsible for NSW allowing private reptile keeping and being the individual person responsible for alerting the rest of the country to the fact that cane toads are an environmental problem. His absurd list of such claims is longer than all our arms put together, he thrives on the responses to such fraud and the best response to anything he does is silence. I generally follow this rule, but I suppose here I've gone against it. I don't think he is delusional, he knows his stories are beyond fanciful, he is just an extreme attention seeker who seeks to acheive that goal in very inappropriate ways. Too many people are silly enough to fall for his childish tactics and thus he has become an all too familiar person.

As for the venomoid issue, I think people would be vehemently anti venomoid even without hoser. ARP doesn't cop flak because they're quiet about it. In the USA they don't have as big a hoser issue, but they still have venomoids and vocal protestors. I think whether or not it's a good thing, the idea of cutting open a snake's head for something which isn't required to keep it alive will get people upset. Hoser merely causes the issue to be brought up repeatedly because he openly flaunts what he does, in a deliberately provocative way, including being quite open about doing the surgery illegally.


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## diamond_python (Feb 25, 2006)

They look awesome Sdaji. Well done!!


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## olivehydra (Feb 25, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> , in a deliberately provocative way, including being quite open about doing the surgery illegally.



Are you serious? I have never bothered to follow the hoser files so admit to knowing very little. I thought he was a taxi driver, not a surgeon? (oh and author). Still his name appears in alot of literature which may impress some?


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2006)

I've read most of what he has published. Most is worth less than the paper it's printed on, little of consequence is original. Read it all and you'll cease to be impressed, read things written about him by others and you'll be horrified. Hoser is no stranger to admitting to breaking laws. He was a taxi driver some years ago, but after publishing books which accused police officers and politicians of wrong doing, they took his license away and for some time he made his living selling self published propaganda books. Someone like hoser is living proof that you can get away with the worst, most people won't notice or care and few few who do will be ignored.


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## olivehydra (Feb 25, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> I've read most of what he has published. Most is worth less than the paper it's printed on, little of consequence is original. Read it all and you'll cease to be impressed, read things written about him by others and you'll be horrified. Hoser is no stranger to admitting to breaking laws. He was a taxi driver some years ago, but after publishing books which accused police officers and politicians of wrong doing, they took his license away and for some time he made his living selling self published propaganda books. Someone like hoser is living proof that you can get away with the worst, most people won't notice or care and few few who do will be ignored.



Yes perhaps I will read his stuff and come to my own conclusions. I quized an old friend of mine who happens to be a herpetologist about him, hoping to get some goss, and all I got was laughter  I must say I'm a little concerned as I am very gullible so I may come out of the experience wearing aluminium foil over my head in order to prevent ASIO reading my thoughts :shock:


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## KathandStu (Feb 25, 2006)

Sdaji: They are truly beautiful snakes. Whilst I have absolutly no desire to keep vens myself I can certainly admire most ardently your fine specimens! Lovely snakes & lovely photography (as always). Congratulations on the most recent addition to your scaled family.


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## ErisKSC (Feb 25, 2006)

It pics like those Sdaji that make me want them even more!!!!!

My girlfriend is going to kill you!


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## Nephrurus (Feb 25, 2006)

They're not too bad.... i might even go so far as to say "Stunning"

I think we deserve to see some more pics. Possibly in some sunlight? something to show that magnifcent banding off!

-Henry


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## peterescue (Feb 25, 2006)

peterescue said:


> As Sdaji rightly points out the main area of debate over voiding is based on a dislike of Hoser. There are many reasons for this and that he will respond. The same debate has never taken place over ARPs use of venomoids in their outside pits.
> Similarly I dont see debates raging over the scent glands being surgically removed from ferrets.



I should qualify that by saying debate in Australia.
The fact that ARP is shtum about their voids is proof in point.
I have also noticed that the Hoser surgery is now purported to have been performed by a Vetinairy Surgeon but affirmation is not forthcoming.
Further to this, the majority of critisism here is over his lack of credentials to perform such surgery. That ARP have access to that is another glaring anomally in the debate.
If you hate the concept of voids then all forms and there perrpetrators should be vilified, not just the soft targets. I dont condone his actions nor support the outcome. I just tell it as I see it.


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## Hickson (Feb 25, 2006)

olivehydra said:


> I'm a little concerned as I am very gullible so I may come out of the experience wearing aluminium foil over my head in order to prevent ASIO reading my thoughts :shock:



Actually, you should wear an alfoil over your head to prevent Hoser reading your thoughts and then trying to sue you because of what you think about him.

Sdaji - great looking additions to your collection. That front-on closeup is a ripper!



Hix


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2006)

KathandStu said:


> Sdaji: They are truly beautiful snakes. Whilst I have absolutly no desire to keep vens myself I can certainly admire most ardently your fine specimens! Lovely snakes & lovely photography (as always). Congratulations on the most recent addition to your scaled family.



Thanks  Not just for the compliments, but also for reminding me that this thread started out of excitement over two gorgeous snakes and not because of debates about venomoids and bad people  I'm glad that even though you don't want to keep 'vens', you can appreciate them


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## Tristis (Feb 25, 2006)

Quote Hix 
Actually, you should wear an alfoil over your head to prevent Hoser reading your thoughts and then trying to sue you because of what you think about him. 

exactly what i was thinking.


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2006)

Erik: Good! Get some! 

Tell her she'll have to get through my adders before she gets to me 

Henry: sunlight pictures hey? Well, it's overcast today, but I'll see what I can do 

Peter: I'm not taking a strong stand one way or the other on the hoser-venomoid issue. Read his early articles, he gives no lack of clarity that he did the surgery himself, he details how he taught himself by performing the surgery on several road killed snakes (also technically illegal). There is no doubt that his surgery is illegal, but whether or not it is ethical is debatable. There is too much emotion on the side of the anti venomoiders and too much stupidity on hoser's side to get a proper discussion about it. (I assume you read the recent and absurd venomoid thread on the other forum).

Hix: the closeup is crap! The depth of field is too limited, the background is stupid ,it's not even very clear. I think I prefer Moose's version! (still laughing at it, Moose  ) I'll try to get a good one.

I still have to get around to making one of those hats.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 25, 2006)

Just to throw a spanner in the works, does everyone here realise that our adders are not true adders as they belong to the elapidae family whereas true adders belong to the viperidae family. Our adders look and behave like adders but really are not. Most of you would know this thou.


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## Hickson (Feb 25, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> Hix: the closeup is crap! The depth of field is too limited, the background is stupid ,it's not even very clear.



Anything that close is usually going to have a very limited depth of field. As it is, the focal point (the centre scales) and even the eyes are in focus. As for the background, it's ideal - there is nothing in the background to distract you from what, to me, looks like the perfect portrait.

JMO



Hix


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## hornet (Feb 25, 2006)

beautiful adders man, i have been wanting these 4 ages but since i am only turning 18 this year, i cant get them, but 1day, i will get myself some. Does anyone know how old u gotta b in qld 2 keep vens?

John


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## Sdaji (Feb 25, 2006)

TrueBlue: that was probably something worth bringing up, there are probably a few people here who didn't realise. Looks like you've covered the last quarter of the story of their names' histories  (I was expecting it to happen  )

Hix: appreciate it all you like, I don't think it's special (can't you praise one of my photographs which I'm actually proud of and leave this one alone?  :lol: )

hornet: Thanks  Some years ago the situation was a bit more relaxed than it is now, I had a license to keep venomous snakes when I was 16 (in Victoria) although I think soon after they became quite a bit more strict. I think you'll be able to get your license when you're 18 years old, but you'll need to satisfy a few requirements in QLD, so if you get the chance, get some experience (I don't recommend doing a course).


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## Hickson (Feb 26, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> can't you praise one of my photographs which I'm actually proud of and leave this one alone?  :lol:



You mean, like the the Moloch in the tree?



Hix


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## Sdaji (Feb 27, 2006)

Hix said:


> Sdaji said:
> 
> 
> > can't you praise one of my photographs which I'm actually proud of and leave this one alone?  :lol:
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol:

No, that's not one of the ones I had in mind


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## Livewire (Feb 27, 2006)

Congrats on your new additions mate, trully stunning speciman's. The photography, simply awesome I reckon!!! Well done.


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## longtom (Mar 11, 2006)

*tis his brother lol*

tis his brother and siso lol from same clucth im ledt to believe


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## longtom (Mar 11, 2006)

boy again


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## Wrasse (Mar 13, 2006)

Longtom, who's the one on the right, male or female ? To see them together like that really shows them up, it's a stunner !


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## longtom (Mar 13, 2006)

that be the male wrasse they tell me they normally colour up more than the females


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