# Thoughts on cross breeding



## BHP1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

What's everyone's thoughts on cross breeding snakes (jags)? My thought is that I don't like it at all. If this is ok than what's stopping me from breeding a roughie with a GTP? Or a black headed python with a woma?


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## kitten_pheonix (Nov 26, 2014)

Depending on your state cross breeding species such as that will result in the hatchlings being confiscated and euthanized.


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## Umbral (Nov 26, 2014)

Or a human to a chimp.


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## Dragon_77 (Nov 26, 2014)

You should not cross-breed any species of Snake or Lizard, it's not right for us to interfere with nature, by cross-breeding or designing animals based of their colour and marking.
Just so we can sell them for more money, leave them the way they were meant to be, just like they are found out in the wild.

IMO us humans are just to greedy for what we want, and don't care what is around in the future once where gone, and future kids won't get to see and enjoy what we have been lucky to see in our life.


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## arevenant (Nov 27, 2014)

Can't stop other people from doing whatever they want so why dwell on it.
Don't like it, don't do it is pretty simple, as for others - not worth wasting my time contemplating...


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## BHP1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

I'm in QLD so it's illegal here but I have never heard of anyone having their hatchies confiscated and euthanized even when they advertise as a cross species or jag. It makes you wonder where the line in the sand is.

- - - Updated - - -

Not exactly dwelling on it arevenant. I was having a conversation with a mate and wanted to know other peoples thoughts on the matter. And thanks for your input, you must feel strongly about it if you responded.


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## saximus (Nov 27, 2014)

You?re not going to get an even sided discussion on this topic on here. Anyone with a lot of experience who sits in the ?for? camp has either long left this forum or won?t be willing to voice their opinion for fear of being shouted down by the six month experts.

At the end of the day, the people doing it don?t care whether you agree with it or not. There are plenty of people who enjoy designer morphs just as there are plenty of people who prefer only pure animals and so there is a market for both. 

Live and let live I say.


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## BHP1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

Thanks for your opinion saximus. I really don't mind if people don't agree with me or not. Just wanted to know peoples thoughts. The laws aren't enforced to stop people from doing it so it's a farce anyway, hence my thoughts on why others haven't cross bread other lines like aspidites. Or maybe they have? I don't have a fear of being shouted down by people new to the game that have such species because they look pretty, lol I defiantly won't be loosing sleep.


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## BigDaddyO (Nov 27, 2014)

Your original post incorrectly compares two different groups. You should be specific about whether you are referring to inter-specific hybrids (mules/ligers/gtp-roughie) or intra-specific hybrids (corn/grapes/cats/dogs/humans)


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## BHP1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

Ok BigDaddyO I'm specifically talking about inter-specific. I'm not talking about running a goldfish over a coastal.


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## BigDaddyO (Nov 27, 2014)

BHP1983 said:


> Ok BigDaddyO I'm specifically talking about inter-specific. I'm not talking about running a goldfish over a coastal.



I think my description was not clear. Intraspecific is hybrids between sub-species (coastal carpets x jungle carpet jag) and interspecific is hybrids between species (woma x BHP hydrids). Just clarifying.


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## BHP1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

BigDaddyO said:


> I think my description was not clear. Intraspecific is hybrids between sub-species (coastal carpets x jungle carpet jag) and interspecific is hybrids between species (woma x BHP hydrids). Just clarifying.


No worries mate, my original post was more directed between sub species and just thinking why stop there? What's to stop people from breeding from the same family but different species (woma x BHP). Since authorities don't police and enforce current laws. In saying that I have never heard of a single animal being destroyed under these laws. Please let me know if you have heard of one.


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## saximus (Nov 27, 2014)

There have been a couple of pretty big stories both in your neck of the woods and in SA where well-known breeders had animals taken and destroyed. One infamous one had produced Warpets (Water Python x Carpet) which, if you take the emotion out of it, is fairly impressive considering they're not even the same genus. Others had Bredli Jags which are considered a species cross rather than a sub-species cross as is the case with Morelia spilota ssp Jags. 

There are also rumours of BHP x Womas. I'm not experienced in the area at all but I would imagine size difference and the fact that they are reptile eaters would make pairings between those two a bit more tricky.


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## AllThingsReptile (Nov 27, 2014)

The Neuro in jags is bad enough, imagine the problems these BHPXWoma's would have? or the problems any other cross bred animal could potentially have. 





saximus said:


> One infamous one had produced Warpets (Water Python x Carpet) which, if you take the emotion out of it, is fairly impressive considering they're not even the same genus. Others had Bredli Jags which are considered a species cross rather than a sub-species cross as is the case with Morelia spilota ssp Jags.
> 
> There are also rumours of BHP x Womas. I'm not experienced in the area at all but I would imagine size difference and the fact that they are reptile eaters would make pairings between those two a bit more tricky.


I wonder how many animals were killed/eaten in the process of trying to mate these sp. together


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## BHP1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

Thanks for that saximus as I was unaware of that, It's quite interesting to hear about it. Yeh I'm not sure how the aspidites would go either but I do agree with allthingsreptile with the neuro problems that are evident with jags, I don't see a future in the cross breeding but do know that it takes place. It seems that money has priority to the animals welfare in the search of a "beautiful" looking snake which worries me. Especially newbies that think they are going to get rich breeding snakes not knowing the money and hours you have to pour into it.


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## apprenticegnome (Nov 27, 2014)

I'm against it. We screw around too much these days with nature often resulting in bad trade offs. I'm curious, is there any benefit to cross breeding other than an increasing financial gain. I'm not against selling for financial reward but when done ethically.


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## BHP1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

apprenticegnome said:


> I'm against it. We screw around too much these days with nature often resulting in bad trade offs. I'm curious, is there any benefit to cross breeding other than an increasing financial gain. I'm not against selling for financial reward but when done ethically.


I agree with you, I think the idea is trying to produce animals with more colour and or more unique markings, or maybe it's to sell a unique animal that no one has. I think you can't go wrong with a pure animal that has been bred for their own colours and markings enhanced and if you make enough through breeding to cover costs and got enough left over for a carton of beer well I'd be cheering lol. I never got into this hobby for the $$$ but have found that a large number of people have.


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## ShaunMorelia (Nov 27, 2014)

BHP1983 said:


> I think you can't go wrong with a pure animal that has been bred for their own colours and markings enhanced...


That is a similar process that people that cross breed ssp.

As for screwing around with nature comment by the apprenticegnome, the albino was wild caught. That's right, it naturally occurred. As soon as you take that animal out of the wild, put it in a box and select which animal it will mate with, you are "screwing around with nature"



BHP1983 said:


> ...I don't see a future in the cross breeding...


Personally, I think it is quite the opposite.
As new morphs arrive (yes I said it that way intentionally) or appear, they will be selectively bred with other ssp to breed in particular traits, whether it be colour, pattern etc.

The fight about jags can go on forever and a day.

I'll leave you with a picture of one of my jags and one of my horrid Diamond x Jungles..






Thanks,
Shaun.


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## apprenticegnome (Nov 27, 2014)

I see your point Sean but it's interpreting what I have said out of context. I am against the non naturally occurring crossbreeds.


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## BHP1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

I also see your point Shaun but I actually like the albino trait because it is naturally occurring. As for your watered down snake.... Well I'm sure it looks good and I'm sure you love it. Thanks for your input anyway mate


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Nov 27, 2014)

Does anyone have a link to the exact legislation concerning cross breeding in Qld?
i personally don't see much of a problem breeding anything spilota to anything spilota I can understand if you were trying to cross scrubies and bredli or gtp with a olive python ( just some examples doubt if anyone had done that probably tried though..) I also don't like jags purely 
because of the neuro to each their own though.


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## spotTed (Nov 27, 2014)

*re cross breeds*



BHP1983 said:


> What's everyone's thoughts on cross breeding snakes (jags)? My thought is that I don't like it at all. If this is ok than what's stopping me from breeding a roughie with a GTP? Or a black headed python with a woma?



Long time lurker 1st time post.
Ive been into fish for a long time now and am about to purchase my first snake. 
This problem has been in the aquarium industry for a long time now.
The problem with cross breeding species is that over time the cross bred animals get into peoples hands who dont realize that the species they own is cross bred and start calling it a pure breed and the genes off the cross bred animal become entangled in pure strains therefore not producing pure strains anymore and new people to the hobby wouldnt have the slightest clue therefore giving that species a bad name or even worse, ruining the species forever.
I didnt know it was also happening with snakes.
Im a purest with my fish. 
Too early to tell what i will be with the snakes but pure bred genes are always better.


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## wokka (Nov 27, 2014)

spotTed said:


> Im a purest with my fish.
> Too early to tell what i will be with the snakes but pure bred genes are always better.


With cattle i think they call it hybrid vigour where the progeny from crossed parents is superiour to either parent. To say pure is best is a generalisation. It will depend upon the trait which you are judging!


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## swampie (Nov 27, 2014)

Personally I'm against it so don't partake in it...

I'm not one to push my opinion on other people though, if they choose to do it then that is their business and I'm fine with that, I would however like to see people be up front and honest about it if and when they decide to sell or give away the offspring...


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## beastcreature (Nov 27, 2014)

This topic is saturated in grey area & is always over simplified in threads like these.

Crossbreeding snakes is not automatically bad, it could be good for diversifying captive populations, but this is if it's done with diversity in mind & to say it usually isn't is an understatement.

I feel we could see a decline in the health of our captive snakes in years time, when inbreeding has caught up with them, if we don't start keeping extensive pedigrees & maintaining diversity instead of or along side the focus of reproducing desirable physical traits, a lot of people will outgrow the hobby & many others don't have the interest, knowledge or foresight to consider how what we do now might affect our captive snakes in 100 years time.

I said this a few days ago on another thread, I consider breeding Jags qualzucht, torturous breeding, not because they're crosses but because we know they are inherently defective & some of us are happy to disregard their quality of life in favour of how they look, It's at points like this we stop appreciating animals for what they are, we treat them as accessories to be manipulated.

The fear that locality types will be ruined by crossbreeding might be something to consider but generally, once a cross is bred back to it's natural counterpart for a few generations, the cross is unlikely to have any significant bearing on the progeny from a negative perspective, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be as honest as possible about what we sell but that comes down to the psychology of the seller.

I think we have to be as careful about our obsession with purity as we do with our obsession with rarity.


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## Jeffa (Nov 28, 2014)

Good thread! I have recently spoken our local wildlife officer regarding hybrids, crossbreeds and jag mutations and the legality within Q.L.D, and he has informed me around a month ago that himself and many other officers have just come back from compliance training in Brisbane. A big topic discussed at length were the aforementioned topics and the tightening of illegally bred (above mentioned) animals, more raids, increased staff and a more zero tolerance. I have emailed him and will keep you posted when he replies via email. also mentioned was the encouragement to the public in dobbing in and reporting illegally kept animals.


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## BHP1983 (Nov 28, 2014)

Jeffa said:


> Good thread! I have recently spoken our local wildlife officer regarding hybrids, crossbreeds and jag mutations and the legality within Q.L.D, and he has informed me around a month ago that himself and many other officers have just come back from compliance training in Brisbane. A big topic discussed at length were the aforementioned topics and the tightening of illegally bred (above mentioned) animals, more raids, increased staff and a more zero tolerance. I have emailed him and will keep you posted when he replies via email. also mentioned was the encouragement to the public in dobbing in and reporting illegally kept animals.


I'm all for it. It's about time that authorities took a stance on this and cleaned up the reptile trade. It won't be hard to find out who has them as they post on the internet themselves. 
At least the new wildlife officers that they will recruit will have their wages paid for after the amount of fines that they are going to issue! 

COMMON SENSE PREVAILS!


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## Wally (Nov 28, 2014)

saximus said:


> You?re not going to get an even sided discussion on this topic on here. Anyone with a lot of experience who sits in the ?for? camp has either long left this forum or won?t be willing to voice their opinion for fear of being shouted down by the six month experts.



Plenty of us in the other camp that don't hang around here much now either saximus.


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## apprenticegnome (Nov 28, 2014)

So far it seems to be given a fair treatment from either side in this thread. Whether people have been in the hobby 6 months or 6 years makes no difference, I have watched some more senior members shout people down with incorrect information - it cuts both ways. I am concerned about the major decline in activity on the site and regular members vanishing but believe it's due to other reasons.


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## arevenant (Nov 28, 2014)

BHP1983 said:


> I'm in QLD so it's illegal here but I have never heard of anyone having their hatchies confiscated and euthanized even when they advertise as a cross species or jag. It makes you wonder where the line in the sand is.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Not exactly dwelling on it arevenant. I was having a conversation with a mate and wanted to know other peoples thoughts on the matter. And thanks for your input, you must feel strongly about it if you responded.



My strong feelings on it are I couldn't care less either way, what other people do aren't my concern.
You asked my opinion and I gave it is all...

- - - Updated - - -



beastcreature said:


> This topic is saturated in grey area & is always over simplified in threads like these.
> 
> Crossbreeding snakes is not automatically bad, it could be good for diversifying captive populations, but this is if it's done with diversity in mind & to say it usually isn't is an understatement.
> 
> I feel we could see a decline in the health of our captive snakes in years time, when inbreeding has caught up with them, if we don't start keeping extensive pedigrees & maintaining diversity instead of or along side the focus of reproducing desirable physical traits, a lot of people will outgrow the hobby & many others don't have the interest, knowledge or foresight to consider how what we do now might affect our captive snakes in 100 years time.



It's been proven that reptile genes do not work this way - inbreeding has no detrimental effects on gene quality as their structure is much different to that of mammals...


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## beastcreature (Nov 28, 2014)

arevenant said:


> It's been proven that reptile genes do not work this way - inbreeding has no detrimental effects on gene quality as their structure is much different to that of mammals...



No, it hasn't.


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## BHP1983 (Nov 29, 2014)

arevenant said:


> My strong feelings on it are I couldn't care less either way, what other people do aren't my concern.
> You asked my opinion and I gave it is all...
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


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## wokka (Nov 29, 2014)

BHP1983 said:


> At least the new wildlife officers that they will recruit will have their wages paid for after the amount of fines that they are going to issue!
> 
> COMMON SENSE PREVAILS!


What fines are those?


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## BHP1983 (Nov 29, 2014)

For breaching the rules that many have manipulated for their own benefit.


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## W.T.BUY (Nov 29, 2014)

saximus said:


> There have been a couple of pretty big stories both in your neck of the woods and in SA where well-known breeders had animals taken and destroyed. One infamous one had produced Warpets (Water Python x Carpet) which, if you take the emotion out of it, is fairly impressive considering they're not even the same genus. Others had Bredli Jags which are considered a species cross rather than a sub-species cross as is the case with Morelia spilota ssp Jags.
> 
> There are also rumours of BHP x Womas. I'm not experienced in the area at all but I would imagine size difference and the fact that they are reptile eaters would make pairings between those two a bit more tricky.



Is there any pics floating around of these Warpets?


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## saximus (Nov 29, 2014)

W.T.BUY said:


> Is there any pics floating around of these Warpets?



There was on another forum but I'm not sure if the thread still exists because of the poop storm it created. They kind of just looked like really dark, ugly Carpets


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## MesseNoire (Nov 29, 2014)

W.T.BUY said:


> Is there any pics floating around of these Warpets?



There is if you google it.
They are on a page that belongs to "he must not he named"....


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## Senator358 (Nov 30, 2014)

There has also been bhp/woma crosses found in the wild recently so is that bad too? If it happens in the wild then why not in captivity?


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## BHP1983 (Nov 30, 2014)

Senator358 said:


> There has also been bhp/woma crosses found in the wild recently so is that bad too? If it happens in the wild then why not in captivity?


Can you please provide a link?


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## Senator358 (Nov 30, 2014)

http://www.pilbarapythons.com/trueblue/index.php?topic=3075.0

Little bit of info on one here but I believe this one died before DEC could do genetic testing. There are more though


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## BHP1983 (Nov 30, 2014)

I am not entirely convinced it is a BHP/woma cross. It more looks like a gold chin BHP. They could do genetic testing on deceased animals and the thread didn't validate it. I'm definitely not saying it can't be done but this is no means a definite cross breed.

- - - Updated - - -



Prof_Moreliarty said:


> Does anyone have a link to the exact legislation concerning cross breeding in Qld?
> i personally don't see much of a problem breeding anything spilota to anything spilota I can understand if you were trying to cross scrubies and bredli or gtp with a olive python ( just some examples doubt if anyone had done that probably tried though..) I also don't like jags purely
> because of the neuro to each their own though.



? Section 92 of the Nature Conservation Act 1992

92 Restriction on breeding etc. hybrids of protected animals
(1) A person must not?
(a) knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal; or
(b) abandon a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal in the wild; other than under a regulation or exemption under a regulation.
Maximum penalty?165 penalty units.
(2) A person must not release a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal into the wild other than under a conservation plan for the protected animal.
Maximum penalty?165 penalty units or 1 year?s imprisonment. 


There is currently no regulation, or exemption under a regulation that authorises the breeding of a hybrid. It is therefore unlawful for a person to knowingly breed a hybrid of a protected animal. 





TheNature Conservation (Wildlife Management) Regulation 2006 currently authorises the breeding of mutations for the following wildlife:


? a controlled bird;


? a commercial bird; or


? a recreational bird.





There is currently no regulation, or exemption under a regulation that authorises the breeding of a mutation of a restricted bird, any reptile or any amphibian. It is therefore unlawful for a person to knowingly breed a mutation of a restricted bird, any reptile or any amphibian.


The Nature Conservation (Wildlife Management) Regulation 2006 is scheduled for review by the department in 2015. As part of this review, the department will assess which species of protected animal can be legally mutated, and whether or not it is appropriate to legalise mutations for other species of protected animal. 


There are currently no plans to legalise the creation of hybrid protected animals. The department considers the deliberate creation of hybrid protected animals as a serious risk to conservation and significant penalties apply for those found to be knowingly producing hybrid protected animals.


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