# Baritji eggs!!



## Guest (Aug 9, 2004)

Hey Guys,
On Friday night, I was cleaning out my monitor enclosures. I opened up my baritji enclosure, and found an egg :shock:. I thought hmm this is weird, and carefully dug up the rest of the substrate, and I found two more. Anyway, after a short talk to 'noone' (thanks for ya help) I put the eggs on moist paper towels, in a container in my ****ty incubator.

The next morning, I took the single good egg down, to a VERY experienced herp's house. The egg APPEARS to be fertile to him. He is now incubating it for me.

Whats weird about this? Well, for the last 2 years, this animal has been kept ALONE, and it was only about 20cm TL when it was seperated from other members of its clutch..

What are peoples thoughts on this?


----------



## Springherp (Aug 9, 2004)

I have an A. childreni that annually produces a clutch of slugs without ever having been paired with a male. I've got no idea why it happens though sorry...


----------



## Fuscus (Aug 9, 2004)

Document it. You might have the first case of parthenogenesis noted in the species :shock:


----------



## Guest (Aug 9, 2004)

Just another meaning to the phrase "go .... yourself!" 

I have fish that do it all the time, eggs all over, but never a member of the opposite sex in site. And always duds.


----------



## hey_im_sam (Aug 9, 2004)

:shock: If that egg's fertile... Lol, would be pretty amazing to say the least. I guess we'll have to wait and see, though chances are it's a cleaner looking slug, right? Did he candle it or just look at it?


----------



## Guest (Aug 9, 2004)

Sam,
Nah mate, he didnt candle it, but he said it looks fertile anyway. I doubt it will hatch, but I least I know I have a female heh


----------



## NoOne (Aug 9, 2004)

Stick a torch under it Brodes....won't hurt it, then you'll know for sure.
I'm keen to see if she lays again.


----------



## Bryony (Aug 9, 2004)

yay!
brodes has eggs!
let us know what happens


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 9, 2004)

Probably a slug. It's not too unusual to get infertile eggs that look good, I've had it in dragons and snakes a few times. I've never had it in goanna eggs though. Actually, I've never had a goanna egg that didn't hatch.

Keep us posted, Baritji!


----------



## lutzd (Aug 9, 2004)

hey_im_sam said:


> :shock: If that egg's fertile... Lol, would be pretty amazing to say the least. I guess we'll have to wait and see, though chances are it's a cleaner looking slug, right? Did he candle it or just look at it?



Virgin birth?? Could be the start of a new religion! :shock: Hail Olive, full of rat........ etc. :?


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 9, 2004)

Virgin birth occurs at my place all the time.


----------



## instar (Aug 9, 2004)

Good luck Brodes, intresting stuff! How much would you charge for an immaculate baby? 
Varanus immaculatii :wink: I wonder if iot will be able to walk on water?


----------



## westhamsc (Aug 9, 2004)

good luck brodes. i know my stick insects reproduce with out males but only produce females can this be the same thing? or are they like chickens?


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 9, 2004)

> good luck brodes. i know my stick insects reproduce with out males but only produce females can this be the same thing? or are they like chickens?



What stick insects do you keep? I clone a few species too. I also have the virgin birth geckoes (hey, I must call them that next time I advertise, might sell them faster!)

What do you mean 'like chickens"?


----------



## instar (Aug 9, 2004)

Taste john! ...like chicken :twisted:


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 9, 2004)

The baritji will taste like chicken if they hatch?


----------



## craig (Aug 9, 2004)

my "male" cockateil layed three eggs the other day!!!
my dad found it and thought i have planted them there as a joke!!!
good luck with the egg brodie!!!


----------



## sobrien (Aug 9, 2004)

Barjiti sperm storage? Possible.


----------



## Cooperkasparek (Aug 9, 2004)

cool man


----------



## zoe (Aug 9, 2004)

> Barjiti sperm storage? Possible.



yeah what sob said, can't some animals store sperm til its the right season to um....fertilise? not sure what breeds that works for but hey its an idea lol


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 9, 2004)

Sperm storage makes me cringe when I see species mixed at the pet shops.


----------



## Guest (Aug 9, 2004)

2 years would be just way to long for that.
I have talked to a few VERY experienced monitor keepers (30 years +) and they have never heard of any of the odataria subgenus retaining sperm for that long.


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 9, 2004)

Not being observed doesn't mean it can't happen. I'm sure there aren't too many goanna keepers who have kept their good breeding females in isolation for two years. It may not be possible but it's difficult to prove a negative.


----------



## Guest (Aug 9, 2004)

yeah I know mate,
which is why this egg is pretty exciting for me!
Also it wasnt known to be a female, and she left the others at 20cm tl


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 9, 2004)

I'd say it's infertile, but if not you should get it genetically tested to confirm it was sperm storage, then you can prove yourself wrong


----------



## HATCHMASTER (Aug 9, 2004)

hey brodie,you could have the first amafrodite(male and female) hope i spelt that right.good luck with the egg anyway.


----------



## hey_im_sam (Aug 9, 2004)

> amafrodite(male and female) hope i spelt that right


Hermaphrodite


----------



## Fuscus (Aug 9, 2004)

Parthenogenesis is not unknown in herps, all flowerpot snakes are female and it has been recorded in both geckos and skinks. But my money is on the infertile horse, hope I'm wrong. 
But has she been kept with any other species of goannas?


----------



## Guest (Aug 9, 2004)

Nope


----------



## Fuscus (Aug 9, 2004)

good


----------



## Tommo (Aug 9, 2004)

my guess is that it is infertile, unless the males have been sneaking around behind your back 

i hope it is fertile, ive been think of getting a small monitor


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 10, 2004)

> Parthenogenesis is not unknown in herps, all flowerpot snakes are female and it has been recorded in both geckos and skinks. But my money is on the infertile horse, hope I'm wrong.



I'm running a parthenogenetic Bynoe's gecko through a metabolism rate test right now, I can see its stats on my monitor! I can calculate how much air it's using!
The parthenogenetic species are different species, not just occasional members of sexual species. All the parthenogenetic reptiles are obligate parthenogens aren't they? Although I've heard of the very rare case of it happening in snakes, through a meiosis mix up or such.

I didn't know the flower pot snakes were all female. Has anyone kept those? They must be easy to keep if they live in pot plant dirt.


----------



## Hickson (Aug 10, 2004)

As I recall, from some research I did into parthenogenesis at uni a few years back, parthenogenetic species do have males at some point. It appears that parthenogenesis may be an evolutionary adaptation to adverse conditions - small populations spread over a wide area (usually becasue of low resources) where encountering others of your species is a rare occurrence. In good years when there is plenty of food and populations are not so widespread, males reproduce with the females in the usual sexual fashion, and when the adverse conditions return the females start reproducing parthenogentically again. If they happen to bump into a male, then obviously they would take advantage of the opportunity to mate.

One of the things that was emphasized in most of the papers I read was: despite popular opinion to the contrary, there are always males - but because of their low numbers compared to females they are often not seen and people believe the population to be entirely female. From an evolutionary standpoint, an entirely female population - with no males at all - is a recipe for a quick extinction.

And for those that are interested, almost every parthenogenetic species is polyploid.



Hix


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 10, 2004)

Hix, that's not quite the case. In fact, the geckoes I'm working on in the lab right this minute are obligate parthenogens, that it, the species has no males and is incapable of reproducing sexually.

Other species are as you describe (facultative parthenogens). I'm not sure but I believe most of the parthenogenetic insects are facultative rather than obligate parthenogens. Many of the facultative parthenogens reproduce sexually far more frequently than asexually. I know there are species of aphids and sun moths which are all female, I'm not sure if this is because they are incapable of breeding with males or if the males became extinct, but they've been shown to have existed as all female for a very long time (at least in the thousands of years).

I've noticed that there seems to be a male bias in the sexually produced stick insects that I breed and I have wondered if this is to make up for the individuals produced parthenogenetically (which are all female). If the assumption that a sex ratio of 50-50 is the target (which may not be the case), then sexing all the sexually produced offspring might allow you to calculate the average proportion of sexual vs asexual reproduction in the species over the past few thousand years. Well, it may or may not be flawed in one or more ways, but there's one of my little ponderings


----------



## Hickson (Aug 10, 2004)

Sdaji said:


> and is incapable of reproducing sexually.



Do you mean physical changes have been made to prevent them from reproducing sexually, or just that there are no males?





Sdaji said:


> sexing all the sexually produced offspring might allow you to calculate the average proportion of sexual vs asexual reproduction in the species over the past few thousand years.



Umm.....interesting idea - how would you calculate that?

Hix


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 10, 2004)

> Do you mean physical changes have been made to prevent them from reproducing sexually, or just that there are no males?



Yes. Sperm can't fertilise their ova, if they got in there (eg sperm from a different species) the zygote would be tetraploid.



> Umm.....interesting idea - how would you calculate that?



Well, say that... er...um... crap... I can't work out the formula after only 1.5 hours of sleep - horrific nightmare disturbed sleep at that! But I'm pretty sure it could be calculated fairly easily!


----------



## Hickson (Aug 10, 2004)




----------



## Sdaji (Aug 10, 2004)

yeah, yeah    

I'll ponder it out when I'm rested and let you know what I come up with


----------



## Shamus (Aug 10, 2004)

Sdaji said:


> Other species are as you describe (facultative parthenogens). I'm not sure but I believe most of the parthenogenetic insects are facultative rather than obligate parthenogens. Many of the facultative parthenogens reproduce sexually far more frequently than asexually. quote]
> 
> What??? Thank God for http://hyperdictionary.com


----------



## AGAMIDAE (Aug 10, 2004)

Well I hope it all goes well....alot of reptiles have this incredible ability to store sperm for long periods...and will produce eggs when the conditions is right, but not to get your hopes up some will only produce slugs childrens and water python do this frequently....but look at the bright side least you know what sex SHE is, monitors are hard to sex at the best of times.


----------



## Magpie (Aug 18, 2004)

Hows it looking brodes?


----------



## Bryony (Aug 18, 2004)

yeah brodes
hows it looking?


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2004)

Hola!
The egg is still looking fertile, I am told.... not getting my hopes up, but it would be cool if it hatches!!!!

**** news though, 1 of my BTS eggs is crappy!!! 2 more left!

Brodie


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2004)

I'll take one of those off ur hands mate, who wants the second one?


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 18, 2004)

Don't get too excited, I've had heaps of infertile herp eggs look perfect until over a week after the rest of the clutches have hatched. Have a go at candling, it should confirm their status.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2004)

Since monitor eggs, are not fully developed when they are laid, candling is useless until after about one month of incubation. So I just have to wait it out heh.

Brodie


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 18, 2004)

Huh? What does 'not fully developed' mean?


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2004)

means that inside the egg, is another soft egg (like a human egg) that is still turning into a lizard type embryo


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 18, 2004)

the blood vessels should be there shouldn't they? I'm sure you could tell. Open up a fresh python egg and you don't exactly see a half grown hatchling, but the blood vessels are easily visible. I can't recall candling my goanna eggs before, I'll have a go this season, but I'd be suprised if they can't be candled for their first month.

Just checked up a reference, Vincent and Wilson in their book Australian Goannas (1999) say varanid eggs can be candled and doesn't say to wait.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2004)

Well, I was told that by no less than 5 of the most experienced monitor keepers in the world! Three from Australia.

Brodie


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 18, 2004)

Hard to argue with that!  I'll definately have to candle my goanna eggs this season to see what they look like. They've always looked good and I've never had an infertile one, so don't usually candle them, not completely sure if I ever have.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2004)

lol,
Well I didnt know it until about 3 days after the baritji laid.. I was told to candle the decent looking egg, I did and no veins showed, I nearly threw it away! Lucky huh, well I hope so anyway 

Brodie


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 18, 2004)

When I've candled eggs that look good but have no blood vessels, I've usually stuck them in the incubator, at first it was just in case, but after hatching none of them, it's more out of curiosity - to see how an infertile egg will look through incubation.


----------



## hugsta (Aug 18, 2004)

I hope it's fertile for you Brodes, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you mate....lol


----------



## Bryony (Aug 30, 2004)

hey brodes, any further update?


----------



## Guest (Aug 30, 2004)

%$#[email protected]^!&#!!!
Sorry, I thought I had told ya's, obviously not!
The egg was screwed last friday.. Not to worry, it was expected!
But.. $#@%@ my BTS eggs are all gone now too.
Not a good week!

Brodie


----------



## Sdaji (Aug 30, 2004)

Ah well, no suprises with the goanna eggs. Spewer about the tree snake eggs though 
Breeding anything else this year?
I didn't think you guys were allowed to keep vens...(?)


----------



## bigguy (Aug 30, 2004)

Baritji, I have found that it is pretty easy to candle monitor eggs. Yes, it is hard to see any veins when first laid, but the egg of a fertile egg is normally pink when you candle it in the dark. Infertile eggs are yellow when candled. Try it with some future clutches


----------



## Guest (Aug 30, 2004)

Thanks Bob,
will do.

Sdaji,
I am about to put my carpets together, not sure if the female is big enough though.
I have kingorum together, and about to put the baritji together.... fingers crossed.. would like some montior eggs by the end of the year.

We aren't allowed to keep elapids, rear fanged snakes are fine. I think we can keep elapids now anyway, heard of a few people having their applications accepted. I hope so! Might have some Pale Headed Snakes on the way.

Brodie


----------

