# is it safe? beach sand



## bluedragon (Aug 28, 2017)

hi all i just want to ask if beach sand is safe to use for a python enclosure and a blue tonge skink enclosure is it safe or not because of all the salt in it

cheers jake


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## pinefamily (Aug 28, 2017)

Sand of any kind is not suitable for pythons. It can get under their scales, and cause problems. Blue tongues would be better off in a leaf litter type substrate.


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## bluedragon (Aug 28, 2017)

yeah but what about the wild pythons in dirt ?


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## pythoninfinite (Aug 28, 2017)

bluedragon said:


> yeah but what about the wild pythons in dirt ?



Wild pythons rarely live on "dirt." They climb, they live in rock outcrops, they live in hollow logs, but they do not spend most of their time on sand. As has been pointed out to you already, sand is not a satisfactory substrate for captive pythons, or for most snakes actually. Sand is cold, especially during winter, it blocks up their heat-pits, it gets caught in their mouths, and it can be swallowed in large quantities when they are eating. Nobody with keeping experience uses, or would ever recommend sand in a python enclosure.

Jamie


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 28, 2017)

+1.
No sand in use, never will. Terrible stuff in an enclosure.


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## bluedragon (Aug 28, 2017)

how about a blue tongue


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## Bl69aze (Aug 28, 2017)

pythoninfinite said:


> Wild pythons rarely live on "dirt." They climb, they live in rock outcrops, they live in hollow logs, but they do not spend most of their time on sand. As has been pointed out to you already, sand is not a satisfactory substrate for captive pythons, or for most snakes actually. Sand is cold, especially during winter, it blocks up their heat-pits, it gets caught in their mouths, and it can be swallowed in large quantities when they are eating. Nobody with keeping experience uses, or would ever recommend sand in a python enclosure.
> 
> Jamie


Can you explain why zoos use sand (usually red sand) in their enclosures while I'm guessing they have a combined experience of more than the average keeper of experience?

Not saying you're wrong but I think for some carpet species there wouldn't be a problem?

Edit: also from my experience with sand it's usually quite hot in the middle of the day


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## bluedragon (Aug 28, 2017)

Bl69aze you have got a point


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## Ashleyyedwards7 (Aug 28, 2017)

Thinking logically, wild snakes would come into contact with sand/ dirt and it would be okay, but I don't think its worth using as a substrate for captives due to the reasons mentioned above. 
A friend of mine thought they'd give reptile sand a go for their woma python (being a desert snake and all), but within a few days the woma was agitated and pissed off and struggled to shed (sand removed immediately). She even fed the woma away from the sand.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 28, 2017)

Ashleyyedwards7 said:


> Thinking logically, wild snakes would come into contact with sand/ dirt and it would be okay, but I don't think its worth using as a substrate for captives due to the reasons mentioned above.
> A friend of mine thought they'd give reptile sand a go for their woma python (being a desert snake and all), but within a few days the woma was agitated and pissed off and struggled to shed (sand removed immediately). She even fed the woma away from the sand.


If you think about it, us humans also get agitated especially when sand gets stuck in the board shorts on your waste.

Perhaps for sand you could use less sand than u would other substrates, so they aren't sinking in it? 

Not really sure why your snake is getting sand in its scales though unless something's forcing it to go backwards and roll around in it? 

But no I wouldn't use sand either unless I knew 100% how to use it as a substrate


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## bluedragon (Aug 28, 2017)

what can i use thats safe for a blue tongue substrate that i can get from the wild/bush


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## dragonlover1 (Aug 28, 2017)

we use wood chips/bark for our bluey's,so if you want it for free just rake up some ground litter but make sure there are no tics or mites


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## pinefamily (Aug 28, 2017)

Pretty much what I suggested further up this thread.


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## Tyloop (Aug 28, 2017)

About sand substrate... Is it OK for Woma pythons or not? 

I have mine on a sand substrate and it seems to provide good enrichment when he excavates under his (secure) hide. 

btw I feed him in a separate tub.


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## GBWhite (Aug 28, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> Can you explain why zoos use sand (usually red sand) in their enclosures while I'm guessing they have a combined experience of more than the average keeper of experience?
> 
> Not saying you're wrong but I think for some carpet species there wouldn't be a problem?
> 
> Edit: also from my experience with sand it's usually quite hot in the middle of the day



Champion, it would be wise to take the advice offered by Jamie (pythoninfinite) he's probably got more keeping experience than most, if not all, zookeepers employed in the herp section of zoos. In fact if you want to combine the experience of the more experienced keepers on this site they would well eclipse the keeping experience of current zookeepers by hundreds of years.

As a keeper you are responsible for the welfare of your animals and as it has already been mentioned, due to the high probability that it may cause damage to the animal, sand is not a suitable substrate for Carpets (or bluetongues). I can appreciate that you may wish to make the enclosure look as natural as possible but this can be achieved without the use of sand (or for that matter dirt) by using clean leaf litter. Snakes don't care about what their enclosure looks like, they're only concerned with being provided with a warm basking spot & heat gradient, suitable food items, drinking water and a safe place to tuck themselves away. Adding aesthetics to make the enclosure look nice and natural is chiefly only for the benefit of the keeper. In saying that there are some specialist species that do require some natural substrate elements included in their enclosure to contribute to their wellbeing (but they sure aren't carpets)

When displaying animals, zoos are required to make the enclosure look as close to the natural environment as possible (hence the use of red sand for desert species) but be assured that those animals off display are kept in clean sterile environments.

All the best,

George.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Aug 28, 2017)

I'm not a fan of sand but I guess it could be used with some species.
BUT, big snakes make big pee. Big pee in sand means lots of sand to dispose of/replace.
In the wild the animal can freely move away to an area where the humidity/temp is best suited to its requirements whereas in captivity we have to provide the closest to optimal that we can in a restricted area. With sand that has been wet through bodily functions or a tipped up water dish it might be more work than its worth.

Why go to so much effort to clean an enclosure with expensive products, use an expensive substrate for the snake to have a massive pee as soon as you put it in the enclosure? I'll stick to other mediums thanks.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 28, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> Champion, it would be wise to take the advice offered by Jamie (pythoninfinite) he's probably got more keeping experience than most, if not all, zookeepers employed in the herp section of zoos. In fact if you want to combine the experience of the more experienced keepers on this site they would well eclipse the keeping experience of current zookeepers by hundreds of years.
> 
> As a keeper you are responsible for the welfare of your animals and as it has already been mentioned, due to the high probability that it may cause damage to the animal, sand is not a suitable substrate for Carpets (or bluetongues). I can appreciate that you may wish to make the enclosure look as natural as possible but this can be achieved without the use of sand (or for that matter dirt) by using clean leaf litter. Snakes don't care about what their enclosure looks like, they're only concerned with being provided with a warm basking spot & heat gradient, suitable food items, drinking water and a safe place to tuck themselves away. Adding aesthetics to make the enclosure look nice and natural is chiefly only for the benefit of the keeper. In saying that there are some specialist species that do require some natural substrate elements included in their enclosure to contribute to their wellbeing (but they sure aren't carpets)
> 
> ...


I know well of how reptiles are kept BTS, using everyday enclosures that regular ppl use with easy to clean/swap out equipment.

You have a point with the all non zookeepers beating zookeepers in terms of knowledge how ever the numbers are stacked against, plus you have people who have no reputation and pretty much no say in what's "suitable" for species without being taken seriously (some things I have said in the past for example)
Keepers live and breathe herps with some specialising in different areas, discovering new things, constantly working with their animals to provide the best they can.

I think majority of people from newbies to experts know you can keep carpets for their whole life on paper and a branch with bask spot and a hide (and food+water) but enrichment is fun.. maybe not keeping the animal for ever on sand but adding sand to half the enclosure for a week or so? Really wouldn't hurt if you are looking after your babies and doing daily visual checks


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## GBWhite (Aug 28, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> I know well of how reptiles are kept BTS, using everyday enclosures that regular ppl use with easy to clean/swap out equipment.
> 
> You have a point with the all non zookeepers beating zookeepers in terms of knowledge how ever the numbers are stacked against, plus you have people who have no reputation and pretty much no say in what's "suitable" for species without being taken seriously (some things I have said in the past for example)
> Keepers live and breathe herps with some specialising in different areas, discovering new things, constantly working with their animals to provide the best they can.
> ...



I think you underestimate the experience of those that I am referring to. Most if not all have worked in zoos, reptile parks and wildlife parks at some time in their lives while others also have vast experience in the field and in museums and have learnt through our own and others mistakes. Personally I've worked with reptiles as a keeper and demonstrator for the ARP and in private zoos. I'm a former president of the AHS and founding member of the HHS, team leader of NSW NPWS reptiles surveys and author of species profiles for the same. I also owned and operated a live reptile display. I know what I'm talking about and have full confidence in the advice given here by others of a similar background. Believe it or not but we also live and breath reptiles.


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## Bl69aze (Aug 28, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> I think you underestimate the experience of those that I am referring to. Most if not all have worked in zoos, reptile parks and wildlife parks at some time in their lives while others also have vast experience in the field and in museums and have learnt through our own and others mistakes. Personally I've worked with reptiles as a keeper and demonstrator for the ARP and in private zoos. I'm a former president of the AHS and founding member of the HHS, team leader of NSW NPWS reptiles surveys and author of species profiles for the same. I also owned and operated a live reptile display. I know what I'm talking about and have full confidence in the advice given here by others of a similar background. Believe it or not but we also live and breath reptiles.


Damn ok didn't see that coming :O 

I'll just shh


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## Scutellatus (Aug 28, 2017)

In regards to Blue Tongues, they do alright on sand. I have seen them living in beach areas just South of Tweed Heads.


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## Nero Egernia (Aug 28, 2017)

In Western Australia it's against our license conditions to use sand as a substrate for pythons.


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## bluedragon (Aug 29, 2017)

thank u Scutellatus a sutible answer substrate fo blue tongue
thanks


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## Rob (Aug 29, 2017)

bluedragon said:


> thank u Scutellatus a sutible answer substrate fo blue tongue
> thanks



There have been plenty of suitable answers in this thread, you've just seemingly chosen to ignore them. Besides, just because *wild *Blue Tongues have been observed to do alright living in beach areas doesn't mean they will fare the same in your box of sand.


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## bluedragon (Aug 29, 2017)

wow thanks rob and no i dont have a box of sand

oshkii why is that


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## Prof_Moreliarty (Aug 29, 2017)

Because it's not suitable as a substrate..


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## pinefamily (Aug 29, 2017)

It seems this thread has been started with the idea of using "free" substrates. What you need to do is to use the most suitable, not necessarily the cheapest, substrates. Otherwise what you save on substrate cost will be swallowed up by vet costs.


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## pythoninfinite (Aug 29, 2017)

I could say that most reptiles can do OK on roads too. If you want a natural substrate, put several layers of newspaper down, go out into a park or the bush, and rake up a bucket of gum leaves. This is a perfectly good substrate and looks very natural. You don't need to worry about ticks or any other critters. I've been doing this for 50 years+ and never had a problem. But when I was a kid my animals did have problems with respiratory infections, shedding difficulties and impactions because I kept them on sand, when knowledge was less available. Many of them also died because treatment options weren't understood.

Don't bother trying to reinvent the wheel. Your animals will suffer.

Jamie


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## caz2y5 (Aug 29, 2017)

I do believe that what Jake / Bluedragon is asking, is If it's okay to use sand from the beach. In Australia it's actually illegal to remove sand from any beach.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 5, 2017)

Bl69aze said:


> Can you explain why zoos use sand (usually red sand) in their enclosures while I'm guessing they have a combined experience of more than the average keeper of experience?
> 
> Not saying you're wrong but I think for some carpet species there wouldn't be a problem?
> 
> Edit: also from my experience with sand it's usually quite hot in the middle of the day


Aesthetics is the only reason they use it... saying that zoo keepers have a lot more knowledge or experience than the average herp enthusiast is highly debatable, you should see the way they all keep fresh water turtles... sand (not beach sand which is extremely high in siica) but natural river sand is the only suitable substrate for freshwater turtles, yet you see zoos with exhibits crammed with rocks, stones and gravel. A turtle's shell is made from bone and covered with thin scutes made from keratin, the same stuff as our fingernails. What do you think happens when a turtle's shell is constantly in contact with rocks (which are harder?) The shell becomes scarred and pitted and then susceptible to shell rot. Several zoos in South Australia still refer to turtles as tortoises... err huhh... with turtles, the only way to know where and how they live is to actually get in the water with them.... turtles prefer Sandy silty sections of creeks and rivers where they can bury themselves.


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