# Seeing the world through rose coloured glasses?



## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

Hey everyone, the title has nothing to do with the topic, just a play on words. I have a question that I'd like you guys to ponder and reply with your answers. This is something that has bothered me for years, since I was little actually. OK so here's the question...

How do we know that we all see the same colours? For example, the colour red is universally known as red. We are all brought up seeing a certain colour and being told that it's red, but how do we know that everyone sees each colour the same?

Sorry if I haven't conveyed this properly, I put the same question to someone and they couldn't wrap their head around what I was saying for a while. This might sound like a silly question, but it's something that has always made me think.

It also has some relevance to our reptiles. If we cannot definitively say that we each see the same colours, then how can we be certain that our reptiles see in thermal vision? Sure, they have heat pits and they flick their tongues, but how do we know they can't see in similar ways to us? I'm quite certain after watching my snakes that they have keener eyesight then some "experts" lead us to believe. I've put room temperature things in front of them, and witnessed them move away from it with no tongue flicking whatsoever.

Just something to think about


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## Firedrake (Aug 19, 2011)

I know what you mean, I've thought about that alot. Nobody understood what I meant when I asked them either haha. Surely snakes would have better eyesight than just relying on their sense of taste/smell or heat sensing? Why would they not have good eyesight too? What about burrowing species like BHP and Womas? They spend alot of time in the dirt, so would they not need as good eyesight as say a GTP or Jungle?


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## viciousred (Aug 19, 2011)

*brain explodes* Thats going to bug me for the rest of my life.


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

viciousred said:


> *brain explodes* Thats going to bug me for the rest of my life.



So you understood me then? That's great!



Firedrake said:


> I know what you mean, I've thought about that alot. Nobody understood what I meant when I asked them either haha. Surely snakes would have better eyesight than just relying on their sense of taste/smell or heat sensing? Why would they not have good eyesight too? What about burrowing species like BHP and Womas? They spend alot of time in the dirt, so would they not need as good eyesight as say a GTP or Jungle?



Yeah, all good things to think about. I think the snakes undoubtedly use their heat detecting skills, but I also believe they can see properly.

I'm really keen to see if many people think the way "eye" think about human sight, too


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## viciousred (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes I get it lol I will not trip out, I will not trip out..... ;p


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## vampstorso (Aug 19, 2011)

I studied this quite some time ago...so my info is gonna be quite sketchy haha, so don't take it for gospel so much as a starting point for your own research

colour is created by how light is absorbed or reflected by materials/objects, isnt it?
and hence our eyes don't create colour so much as interoperate it...

when someone is "colour blind" they don't see black and white...but instead we have two sets of colours we see through (can't remember them...it's something totally random though like orange and blue etc etc)
so they may only see two colours but in different shades for everything. e.g. Once I thought a boy a babysat was colourblind...because he called EVERYTHING "orange" no matter what.
They once injected bacteria into monkeys eyes allow them to start seeing colours the way we do... (I'd link you but I can't remember and cant be stuffed googling)

as for how we see colour, it's species based. Obviously whatever we consider red, is how our eyes see the way a material absorbs light, and hence may not be red to other species.. (but why do we even care what colour an animal see's? it's still uniform..everytime we show them the same shed of red...it'd still be the same shade of whatever they see too them)


i could've phased all this better and gotten more scientific...but I'm halfway through feeding my fat teenage face haha

assuming you're "normal" within the species, you'd see colour the same...e.g. we don't all breath or smell differently.


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## viciousred (Aug 19, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Yeah, all good things to think about. I think the snakes undoubtedly use their heat detecting skills, but I also believe they can see properly.


 Deffinattly agree with that. My snakes can distinguish between me and my partner through glass


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

viciousred said:


> Yes I get it lol I will not trip out, I will not trip out..... ;p



Speaking of tripping out, another thing to take into consideration is LSD. When people take it, they have a variety of different experiences, from tasting colours to smelling numbers, etc. So if our brains can get muddled up with our senses, it's not too far fetched to think that we may all see colour differently.



CoolDenturesBro said:


> I studied this quite some time ago...so my info is gonna be quite sketchy haha, so don't take it for gospel so much as a starting point for your own research
> 
> colour is created by how light is absorbed or reflected by materials/objects, isnt it?
> and hence our eyes don't create colour so much as interoperate it...
> ...



The highlighted part is exactly what I'm getting at with humans. Yes we have a spectrum of colours, but how do we know each individuals eyes work EXACTLY the same?


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## vampstorso (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm sure if you looked into medical journals it'll tell you quite quickly....and you're at uni so you'd have free access too them...no excuses 

but again...assuming you're a normal member of the species, I'd say yes. Because...that's part of being that species.
otherwise we could assume everything else within our bodies works differently per normal individual...


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## saximus (Aug 19, 2011)

This is a massive question in philosophy. I love it because it's so mind blowing and so simple. Supposedly we each have a different number of receptors in our eyes for each colour so it is actually very likely that we see colours differently


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## Megzz (Aug 19, 2011)

This is one of those times I'm glad that I sit back and let scientists tell me whats what.


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## vampstorso (Aug 19, 2011)

Perhaps slightly...but i wouldnt anticipate much change....again Im sure medicine has looked into it for you KR  of i wasnt having too write down the ages of death of 12,000 people one by one right now, Id find a journal for you lol


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

saximus said:


> This is a massive question in philosophy. I love it because it's so mind blowing and so simple. Supposedly we each have a different number of receptors in our eyes for each colour so it is actually very likely that we see colours differently



EXACTLY!! Science can't prove or disprove it (yet), and it is such a simple, obvious question. Is it really a well known philosophical question? The amount of people I'd asked, that have looked at me like an idiot, or been completely unable to wrap their head around such a simple concept is ridiculous.



Megzz said:


> This is one of those times I'm glad that I sit back and let scientists tell me whats what.



Don't you have the urge to know for yourself, though? Just because a scientist says so, doesn't mean it's gospel. The thing with science, is that it's all refutable, so don't you question things?



CoolDenturesBro said:


> Perhaps slightly...but i wouldnt anticipate much change....again Im sure medicine has looked into it for you KR  of i wasnt having too write down the ages of death of 12,000 people one by one right now, Id find a journal for you lol



I'm sure medicine has looked into it, but I doubt it could be proven Vamps. I did a quick look up on the net, and Sax is right, this is something that has been pondered for a long time without any answers.


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## saximus (Aug 19, 2011)

Yeah it's great for philosophy because it also relates to perception. It's possible that we will never know because it isn't only about what our eyes see but how the brain interprets it (the perception part). They great concept that our eyes are just a lens and the brain is the camera that does the "seeing" relates to it as well


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## Firedrake (Aug 19, 2011)

Um sorry to burst your bubble but we do smell things differently  Except that when things smell different to what others smell them as it actually smells, well, different  Not like if you see one color and to someone else your green could be purple but it's still called green, more like I could smell vegimite and someone else could smell the same thing as being bread cooking. Or I had plain chilled water once but to me it tasted like apples...

Haha how's the brain now viciousred?


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

One of the first lessons you learn in art history is that art is subjective for exactly that reason, everyone perceives what they see in a different way. Thats what is interesting about acid, sometimes people hallucinate the exact same thing at the same time even though they see real things completely differently to each other. Gotta love trippy conversations.


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## Firedrake (Aug 19, 2011)

And we will never know how another person perceives the world no matter how many experiments we do.


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## vampstorso (Aug 19, 2011)

did you look on the net in general, or specifically for journals?

lol at calling me vamps despite the new name 


may i ask why you wonder this so much?
I figure it'd be compensated in the fact that whatever each individual considers red...will always stay the same and hence we can still communicate by saying "the red sign" etc.


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> One of the first lessons you learn in art history is that art is subjective for exactly that reason, everyone perceives what they see in a different way. Thats what is interesting about acid, sometimes people hallucinate the exact same thing at the same time even though they see real things completely differently to each other. Gotta love trippy conversations.



If I wasn't anti-drug I'd give acid a go. I just don't like the results of what they can do, lol. It is definitely interesting how it can change the way your brain perceives things. Imagine tasting colour, lol.


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## saximus (Aug 19, 2011)

Maybe it's just a personal thing but I understand why KR finds it so interesting. I guess you aren't one that shares a fascination for this type of philosophy Denture girl


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## Jackrabbit (Aug 19, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> when someone is "colour blind" they don't see black and white...but instead we have two sets of colours we see through (can't remember them...it's something totally random though like orange and blue etc etc)
> so they may only see two colours but in different shades for everything



Not true. I am colour blind but I see every colour. Colour blind means that you see colours as a different shade to 'normal' sighted people. there are generally two types of colour blindness - Red/green and Blue.

I am Red/green and can see red and green, lucky drivers, but sometimes have trouble distinguishing colours containing those colours, such as blue and purple or green and brown.

so what we have been brought up to recognise as red, green, blue, yellow etc we can identify but if everything was revealed we might see as a different shade. It might be an interesting experiment to teach a child totally the wrong thing towards colours and objects and see how it impacts their life and the relearning they would have to go through.

As to snakes, I have no idea what they see as I am sure no one does.


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## Firedrake (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm telling you I've never taken drugs but blue tastes terrible, never liked yellow, and purple and red are too sweet


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> did you look on the net in general, or specifically for journals?
> 
> lol at calling me vamps despite the new name
> 
> ...



But that's exactly the point FonzieFalseTeethRelative, we can still communicate and understand what others mean by "red, blue, green" but it's interesting to wonder if we all see the same things.

I haven't looked at any journals, no.


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## vampstorso (Aug 19, 2011)

jackrabbit, I did say may, I also said don't take it for gospel.




Sax...I have a passionate hate for philosophy personally haha, dunno why...in my nature haha



KR, Journals would be your best bet for new information, they suck and do your head in..but they're your best bet 
you remind me so much of my old roomies dad with this question haha


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## saximus (Aug 19, 2011)

Jackrabbit said:


> It might be an interesting experiment to teach a child totally the wrong thing towards colours and objects and see how it impacts their life and the relearning they would have to go through.


It's a shame this sort of experimentation is so immoral. I reckon we could have learned so much about so many interesting questions like this


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

CoolDenturesBro said:


> jackrabbit, I did say may, I also said don't take it for gospel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'll get around to looking one day. At the moment I am torrenting some of IMDb's top 2011 movies, and enjoying this discussion


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## Firedrake (Aug 19, 2011)

I'd love to do an experiment on kids  Somehow I think they would just get teased for not knowing the right words for things >.>

On the topic of strange ideas and trains of thought, does anyone else see things or feel sensations in their heads when reading a sentence? Like if you read the word 'happy' does that create an image or a feeling as to what it is? Even words you've never seen or heard before?


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

Firedrake said:


> On the topic of strange ideas and trains of thought, does anyone else see things or feel sensations in their heads when reading a sentence? Like if you read the word 'happy' does that create an image or a feeling as to what it is? Even words you've never seen or heard before?



Lol, no. That kind of reminds me of the marijuana stage I went through when I was younger. Sometimes an idea would come to me in a flash, and it would be so obvious and so real (even when I wasn't high it would make sense, but these things only came to me whilst stoned), that when the idea came to me, it felt like something physically happened inside my skull. Kind of hard to explain.


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Lol, no. That kind of reminds me of the marijuana stage I went through when I was younger. Sometimes an idea would come to me in a flash, and it would be so obvious and so real (even when I wasn't high it would make sense, but these things only came to me whilst stoned), that when the idea came to me, it felt like something physically happened inside my skull. Kind of hard to explain.


No explanation needed.


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## Megzz (Aug 19, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Don't you have the urge to know for yourself, though? Just because a scientist says so, doesn't mean it's gospel. The thing with science, is that it's all refutable, so don't you question things


Only the things that really interest me. To be honest this kind of stuff is just over my head most of the time


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## Firedrake (Aug 19, 2011)

It only happens if I read an individual word, so when I read 'happy' I feel a smile, when I read 'smile' I see one lol it's very confusing sometimes especially with contradicting terms like 'smiles solemnly' because solemn is sort of grey like concrete...still with me?


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

Megzz said:


> Only the things that really interest me. To be honest this kind of stuff is just over my head most of the time



The meaning of life and how it all began is beyond human comprehension at this point in time, but it doesn't stop us trying to comprehend it 



Firedrake said:


> It only happens if I read an individual word, so when I read 'happy' I feel a smile, when I read 'smile' I see one lol it's very confusing sometimes especially with contradicting terms like 'smiles solemnly' because solemn is sort of grey like concrete...still with me?



Does it manifest itself physically? When you say "So when I read 'happy' I feel a smile" does a smile actually spread across your face? 

I guess that's just a way your brain uses to comprehend things. When people talk to my grandmother, she mouths everything they say. I guess that's her way, but man it's annoying haha.


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## Firedrake (Aug 19, 2011)

Yeah it sort of does, but when I read 'happy' it's just a feeling, but it's a bright fuzzy feeling, if I read 'angry' it's just a feeling too, but it's a dark kind of black and red feeling. If I read 'smile' I can 'see' it and sometimes I do smile, I must have some very strange expressions when I'm reading lol


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## alrightknight (Aug 19, 2011)

This has been figured out, a physics teacher of mine some time back taught us and it is all to do with different spectrums and phases. Colour is determined by the wave lengths of light coming to and from us (this is also how we can measure how far away other planets are from us). I cant explain it properly ecause it was a while ago haha. But they have done biopsies on eyes and something to do with that proved that we all see colours the same if we have normal eyes.

and just to make me look all scientifical. View attachment 214369


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## saximus (Aug 19, 2011)

Picture didn't work AK. Colour is determined by wavelengths so you're right that, scientifically they are definable and specific. However, just because the eyes are the same and they have specific wavelengths, doesn't mean the brains perceive the images the same way. That's why it is an age old philosophical question. Perception is not a quantifiable object. Not yet anyway...


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

alrightknight said:


> This has been figured out, a physics teacher of mine some time back taught us and it is all to do with different spectrums and phases. Colour is determined by the wave lengths of light coming to and from us (this is also how we can measure how far away other planets are from us). I cant explain it properly ecause it was a while ago haha. But they have done biopsies on eyes and something to do with that proved that we all see colours the same if we have normal eyes.
> 
> and just to make me look all scientifical. View attachment 214369


We may see them the same technically, doesn't mean we perceive them the same way. If it did everyone would have the same favourite colour and hate the same colours. Do an experiment, show a bunch of people a picture of something with obvious colours then ask them to describe it to you with emphasis on the colours. They will all describe it differently because they all perceive it differently.

Looks like me and saximus have our brainwaves in tune, haha


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

Exactly right, just like 100 witnesses of a bank robbery will have 100 different statements as to what they perceived happened.


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

Especially when asked to describe the perpetrator.


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

^^ yeah that's what I meant


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## alrightknight (Aug 19, 2011)

Like I said I cant explain it properly but there is a good Hypothesis on it. Not meaning its true but very believable when told by the correct people, that being not me haha.


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

alrightknight said:


> Like I said I cant explain it properly but there is a good Hypothesis on it. Not meaning its true but very believable when told by the correct people, that being not me haha.



Lots of things are believable when spun by a charismatic person. You'd be surprised.


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## nathancl (Aug 19, 2011)

Is it not how you have been raised/taught and the exposure to the things that you see determines the way its interpreted?Example: if you raised a child away from the outside world and taught it growing up that the colour red was actually the colour carpet and that fridge is actually a stickytape then im assuming they wouldnt know any different? is that the kind of thing you mean?


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

alrightknight said:


> Like I said I cant explain it properly but there is a good Hypothesis on it. Not meaning its true but very believable when told by the correct people, that being not me haha.


Well it is correct that scientifically we see the same way, it is perception that differs. For example, when two people see red, the light difraction that causes them to see red is the same but one person may see a bright happy colour, whereas the other may see an annoying, garish colour. Same colour, seen/perceived a totally different way. On another note, if there was absolutely no light would anything exist at all?


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## Cockney_Red (Aug 19, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Speaking of tripping out, another thing to take into consideration is LSD. When people take it, they have a variety of different experiences, from tasting colours to smelling numbers, etc. So if our brains can get muddled up with our senses, it's not too far fetched to think that we may all see colour differently.
> Even without chemical enhancement I can taste orange, and smell number 2's


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## alrightknight (Aug 19, 2011)

I wish I was a religious man, explaining lifes mysteries would be easy... God did it.



nathancl said:


> Is it not how you have been raised/taught and the exposure to the things that you see determines the way its interpreted?Example: if you raised a child away from the outside world and taught it growing up that the colour red was actually the colour carpet and that fridge is actually a stickytape then im assuming they wouldnt know any different? is that the kind of thing you mean?



Thats perceiving from misinformation, I think this is how every one perceives a standardised thing I.E we all know something is the colour red but how the colour is perceived is different.



kaotikjezta said:


> On another note, if there was absolutely no light would anything exist at all?



ahaha thats pushing a very philosophical ball park. But i believe we still have touch and smell so we can identify if something is there still.


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## snakeluvver (Aug 19, 2011)

Thats a good point, got me thinking now!


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## slim6y (Aug 19, 2011)

Ok, so let's say my green is the equivalent of your blue... Which is completely pollywollocks... But let's say that's the case... Why does it matter if we see colours differently?

For one... I can't even pass a colour blind test (Ishihara colour blind test)... I'm one of 10% or so of the world that can't see every colour distinguishably!

Or is it you who is colour blind and I actually see the colours correctly....

My biggest hate of colour blindness (actually one of two) is when I tell someone and if they don't say "Oh, what colour is this...?" pointing to their shirt or something, they instead say "So everything you see is black and white?"

(idiots).

Anyway... What it comes back to... In order to be green to collect energy from sunlight, plants all need to be a specific colour for chlorophyll to react with the sunlight. And this wavelength of light is incredibly particular...

Colour comes to us in frequencies (very high frequencies) and the eyes pick up those frequencies in specific orders and translate them... We pick up sound frequencies in much the same way through different channels and we can pretty much assume we hear the same sounds as each other.

We have similar reactions in other senses - so why would sight be different?

We're all pretty much made of the same stuff... Some things react slightly differently depending on our wiring - but over all the outcomes are the same!

The second reason I hate my colour blindness was it prevented me from becoming an air traffic controller instead I became a teacher.... Punishment much!!!


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## gosia (Aug 19, 2011)

you have too much time on your hands lol )

In regards to teaching children isn't it the same as another language? In english red is red but in many other language kids are thought different names. But when asked, to them red will always be red (well unless you are color blind!) How the brain recognises it, well we see it we remember and then recall! I dont think that we see it any differently from one another. The brain might recall things a bit differently from one another eg. if I say dog - you might think of a chihuahua but I might think of a golden retriever but in the end still a bloody dog.

So I guess as long we all recognise green and red and know one means go and one means stop then we b ok.


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

slim6y said:


> Ok, so let's say my green is the equivalent of your blue... Which is completely pollywollocks... But let's say that's the case... *Why does it matter if we see colours differently?* I guess it doesn't, but it is still interesting.
> 
> For one... I can't even pass a colour blind test (Ishihara colour blind test)... I'm one of 10% or so of the world that can't see every colour distinguishably!
> 
> ...



I guess it doesn't really matter, but I find it interesting. We can all just go on with our lives, or we can become consumed by philosophical thoughts. I prefer to keep a nice balance of both


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## junglepython2 (Aug 19, 2011)

Quick crash course in colour vision...

There are three human cone receptors, short, medium and long. These all have different peak spectral sensitivites however they overlap to a degree. So if you fire a red light into the eye it activates the 3 different cones at different amounts, with the L cone most excited and the brain then interprets these ratio's and you see red.

Now the M and L cones have reasonably similar peak spectral sensitivities with a lot of overlap and these peak sensitivities do differ in people in the population even between people with 'normal' colour vision. So people definitly can percieve colours differently.

Most people who are 'colour blind' arent really colour blind at all but are colour defective in that the gene that codes for there M or L cone is significantly different to normal. So there peak sensitivity(of the L and M cone) is different to most peoples and they may have trouble distingusihing certain colours.

The genes coding for the M and L cones are found on the X chromosone so males have a much higher rate of colour disorders at around 8%.


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## viciousred (Aug 19, 2011)

Its something they can never even really test, Until they create a optical nerve interface that is... so in a few more years we will all know the answer, until then we'll just have to boggle our brains with the possibilities 

and lol The brain is doing just fine thanks, apart from being splattered on a wall that is ;P


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

I think we do hear and taste things differently as well, even feel and smell. Some people love the sound of a certain song others hate it, some people like the taste of seafood others hate it, some people like the smell of roses, others hate it. Some people love the feel of velvet, others hate it. I have a friend who hates chocolate, I don't understand this at all, chocolate is awesome but she finds it disgusting. She hates the taste, the consistency, the smell, everything about it. It is all subjective.


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## Megzz (Aug 19, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I have a friend who hates chocolate, I don't understand this at all, chocolate is awesome but she finds it disgusting. She hates the taste, the consistency, the smell, everything about it. It is all subjective.


I'd kill to have that problem.


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## viciousred (Aug 19, 2011)

Megzz said:


> I'd kill to have that problem.



I second that


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## snakeluvver (Aug 19, 2011)

Megzz said:


> I'd kill to have that problem.


Yeah I'd do anything to hate cake/chocolate/lollies. The only reason I stay healthy is Im active at school, but when I grow up I can see myself getting lazy and scoffing the biscuits on a reclining chair all day. So basically Im gunna get fat and obviously noone wants to be cos of the health issues ect

BTW back on topic - what exactly does colour blindness mean?


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

Just develop an overactive thyroid, you'll be right!


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## slim6y (Aug 19, 2011)

Little Miss Sunshine is that movie....

Back to your bitter cucumber taste...

I sometimes wonder if people even understand the meaning of the words bitter vs sour... Even Kate Nash suggested in her song "You said I must eat so many lemons, 'cause I am so bitter."

Acids are sour.. Citric acid (lemon's acid) is sour...

The pith is bitter (I agree) but generally a lemon would be more sour than bitter... And I guarantee someone will argue that.

It (unfortunately) begins to reflect on their general knowledge or vocabulary - it does to me mean they don't know what the two words actually mean!

Ok, - back to wavelengths and frequencies...

Our eyes pick up the wavelengths of light because of sizes of receptors... The same with hearing.. we pick up sounds because of the size of the receptors - the speed they vibrate at.

It is plausible there's some mild variations between individuals, but to think the variations would be large, significant or even that diverse would mean we'd need different modes of acceptance to these various stimuli. 

It's therefore improbable that we see colours in many different shades (as far fetched as you see blue I see green but we call it the same colour). Therefore in conclusion - because cones and other sight cells are actually particularly manufactured for their purpose, much like a light switch, there may be some tiny variations in how they switch on, but the overall outcome is the same. The brain can pick up the colours based on wavelength - the colours are predetermined by their frequency and wavelength (assuming Einstein is correct with the speed of light) - the eye therefore requires specific sized cones to pick up specific wavelengths and the brain does the rest... 

I agree, some MINOR differences will occur between individuals (eg colour blindness), but ultimately that does NOT indicate we see completely unique colours believing them to be that of an opposite colour.

Cones are specific to their purpose and that can not change... It's only the brain that can have it changed!

Incidentally - green is the most relaxing colour to the eye - red the least... That seems static amongst humans regardless of age and gender...


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## junglepython2 (Aug 19, 2011)

At the end of the day colour is purely a subjective response to difference's in wavelength. Some people will swear a car is blue while others will call it green. How the each person's brain perceives differences in wavelength is almost impossible to fully determine.

In the words of Erwin Schrodinger 

"The sensation of colour cannot be accounted for by the physicist's objective picture of light-waves. Could the physiologist account for it, if he had fuller knowledge than he has of the processes in the retina and the nervous processes set up by them in the optical nerve bundles and in the brain? I do not think so." [SUP]http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/#cite_note-Schrodinger1958-1[/SUP]


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## Red-Ink (Aug 19, 2011)

Beyond the physical response of the human eye.... colour as a perception is a reflection of a specific wavelength/s of the spectum directed towards the human eye.

As our own eyes do not generate any spectrum what we see is reflectance from an outside source.... so at the end of the day a "blue" peice of paper can actually be seen as red depending on what wavelength is being reflected back towards the eye.... So what colour is it actually???


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## K3nny (Aug 19, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I think we do hear and taste things differently as well, even feel and smell. Some people love the sound of a certain song others hate it, some people like the taste of seafood others hate it, some people like the smell of roses, others hate it. Some people love the feel of velvet, others hate it. I have a friend who hates chocolate, I don't understand this at all, chocolate is awesome but she finds it disgusting. She hates the taste, the consistency, the smell, everything about it. It is all subjective.



its a matter of nature and nurture in the case of taste perception, nature as in some things we are inclined to prefer such as sweets (sugars) and fats, as they both help our predecessors survive and,well, do stuff.

kids have been shown to be more sensitive to taste, just because they tend to be more vulnerable to anything perceived to be toxic or dangerous (usually that comes in the form of bitterness)

supertasters have denser papilla and are more sensitive to flavours, a little can really go a long way for them

nurture wise, it's the things that you grow up with. Personally i absolutely hate vegemite, while i'd happily chow down on a durian, something most westerners would relate to having the smell of onions, sweaty gym socks and death with the texture of curdled milk. I just think of it as natural custard... mmmm....tasty

back on colour, i do believe there is a certain degree of opinion in stating the identity of something, example, one time a friend had these jeans which she said was really dark green... Well i thought it was just black, so we made a bet and asked one of the tutors to guess. She said black, but then again, what was the colour of those jeans? Perhaps there wasn't enough light reflected back? (cones need a certain amount of light to activate, rods on the other hand do fine in the dark) Perhaps one of us didn't recognize the colour spectrum as being one or the other? Too many variables to make a decision me thinks.


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## Fantazmic (Aug 19, 2011)

colour blindness testing is what tells us how people see different colours.
My hubby for example is red green colour blind and occasionally with certain colours he will see them differently to me. He'll say no its too green when I know it isnt green at all for example. When we do the colour blindness tests you can tell he is seeing colours differently. it is quite an accurate way of testing who sees what and how


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## kawasakirider (Aug 19, 2011)

But it only tests for red/green colour blindness. My brother has this, too. It still doesn't mean we all see colours the same way.


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## Renenet (Aug 19, 2011)

KR, I think about these things a lot. I could never immerse myself in philosophy as a career, but it's nice to massage the "what if", "how" and "why" part of the brain.

I won't write a long version because I have to get back to work, but some random thoughts: 

- I've sometimes had disagreements with people over what colour something is, usually with a shade that doesn't fit neatly into a universally accepted colour category. This suggests that although there are colours that most can agree on, there are subtle differences in perception. 
- Sensory perception is different in people with autism, who often have, for example, very sensitive hearing or an abhorrence of bright light. I'm not sure if the sensitivities extend to colour - I've tried to Google it but it's surprisingly hard to find information - but it wouldn't surprise me. 
- Synaesthesia is a condition where senses are connected. It can be any of the senses, not just colour, but I'll use colour examples here. Some people see colour when they listen to music, others might associate letters and numbers with certain colours. _Without _the help of drugs. 
- Synaesthesia is a neurological condition and in large part, so is autism. Therefore neurology plays a part in our perceptions. 

I could probably go on but I need to get some work done!


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## junglepython2 (Aug 19, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> But it only tests for red/green colour blindness. My brother has this, too. It still doesn't mean we all see colours the same way.



There are other tests for blue colour disorders, but you are right most testing is for blue and green defects as they are by far the most common.


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## KaotikJezta (Aug 19, 2011)

K3nny said:


> its a matter of nature and nurture in the case of taste perception, nature as in some things we are inclined to prefer such as sweets (sugars) and fats, as they both help our predecessors survive and,well, do stuff.
> 
> kids have been shown to be more sensitive to taste, just because they tend to be more vulnerable to anything perceived to be toxic or dangerous (usually that comes in the form of bitterness)
> 
> ...


Well, as there are only a few ways to make black dye she was probably right. Black is usually very very dark green or very very dark blue when it comes to fabric dye.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 20, 2011)

Is a red rose in a completely dark room still red?

Have look at your TV screen, close up until you can see the individual pixels. What do you notice?

The basic philosophical question is: “Do sensory qualities such as sounds, smells or colours exist in objective reality rather than the mind of the perceiver.”

I think you need to firstly distinguish between sensory input and sensory perception. Secondly, as has been pointed out, perception can be influenced by learning, experience and expectations. Sensory input is the physical stimulation of receptor neurones resulting in nerve impulses being sent to the brain. Sensory perception is the interpretation and organisation of that information, such that we make sense of the world around us.

Here’s another way to look at the question which you may find useful. This is a thought experiment. Imagine you raise someone in a bubble with no light on them. Then, as an adult you place them in a room where each wall is painted red on one half and blue on the other. Would they see the two colours?

The structure of our sensory organs is the same for all humans. However, there can size and other differences which influence their gross functioning. The actual receptor cells are identical with some minor variations. Taste and smell involve the receptor’s ability to take in specific molecules at given sites within the receptor and then fire of a nerve message (a process called transduction). Some people lack the ability to transduce certain molecules (genetically determined) and therefore are unable to taste or smell these.

The rainbow consists of Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo and Violet. Where then do colours like Pink and Brown come from and how come we can see them?

The visible light spectrum is a continuum. While we can readily distinguish pure red from pure orange, it is not so easy to identity at which point on the spectrum one changes into the other. Aqua would be another example = blue or green? Therefore decisions at all the changes of colour are subjective.

Putting a name to colours involves more than sensory perception. It involves learning and recognition. Given the rage of colours available, the variety of names given them etc schools never teach more than the primary colours.



A few extra notes…

We think of the colour of an object being due to light bouncing off it. If that were the case, the object would tend to shimmer as it is moved. Some fabrics do have this effect. Most absorb all the incoming light and then re-emit it at a particular wavelength.
Plants absorb and use the blue and red ends of the spectrum for photosynthesis. This is due to the presence of Chlorophyll, which re-emits light in the green wavelengths – why plants are green. A green light on a plant will make it look good but will eventually kill it.

Humans have three different receptor cells for colour vision. These are called cones and only operate in bright light. In dim light, we have a different receptor cell that operates, called a rod, which reacts to all different wavelengths of visible light i.e. black and white vision. FYI – only cones are found in the central part of the retina and rods are found outside that area. So if you are trying a find a key hole in dim light and look directly at, it disappears. If you look to one side, you can see it in your peripheral vision.

Blue


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## spida_0000 (Aug 20, 2011)

I had never actually thought about it... Until NOW!! lol


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## nagini-baby (Aug 22, 2011)

i have been trying to explain this to people since i was little. im female and i have a rare genetic form of colour blindness. i see shades but not exact colours. once i no what a colour is or what that shade of colour is i can usually pick up on it if i see it again. but the colours i see are probably not the colours that you see. so when you ask me to explain what i see. i cant.


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## myusername (Aug 23, 2011)

kawasakirider, I used to bug my parents with this same question when I was a child. Glad to know there are people out there whose brains work as strangely as mine does.


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## jack (Aug 23, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Just because a scientist says so, doesn't mean it's gospel.



cannot know what other eyes see, but i perceive this as gold... ahhh, philosphy


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## kawasakirider (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks for the input everyone, I didn't realise this thread had replies until just now.

Myusername, lol yeah I don't necessarily think we think strangely, just more in depth than others care to. Sometimes it bugs me that I think like this, rather than taking life as it comes, without question, but I think it's important to question things, especially things we don't understand.

Just out of curiosity, how did your parents answer you when you asked them this question when you were young?



jack said:


> cannot know what other eyes see, but i perceive this as gold... ahhh, philosphy



Science is different from religion because it is disprovable. Nothing is definite, which is what I said it's not necessarily gospel. Mock what I said all you like, but you cannot argue with that statement.

Nothing in science is absolute.


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## Black.Rabbit (Aug 23, 2011)

The question has been bugging me for 15 years. 

I didn't read the whole thread because I'm on my way to the land of nod (hopefully), so unsure if this has been suggested, but I think really the only way to tell is perhaps in eye transplants.

person recovers:
"oi, is this green?"
..."dude, no, that's purple man" 

(then again... it could have too much to do with the brain, I'm not an ophthalmologist, so I am unsure of this). 


One of my close mates is colour blind. Today at uni gives a perfect example, the lecturer gave out notes on yellow paper, she can't see yellow, instead she just saw dark brown paper with no words. When she drives at night she has to wear rose coloured glasses (funnily enough), otherwise she wouldn't see any road signs. She also can't see any fluro colours... they are all just a muggy brown to her. So we both turn our nose up in disgust when someone shows up to uni in fluro pink leggings and a fluro green singlet.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 23, 2011)

*Visual Perception*
The physiology of vision is anything but simple. I am not professing to understand it but I can give an overview. You have two basic parts. The first is sensory input with resultant firing off of fibres in the optic nerve. The second is the processing of this information in the visual cortex of the brain = visual perception.

The brain has been determined to increase the contrast between objects of similar hue and does so on a regular basis to help us interpret more readily what we are seeing. We also know that visual perception is dependent on such things as experience, memory and expectations. Clearly, different individuals will perceive the same thing differently, including colours. 

Here’s an example to consider. Imagine you went to live in the rainforests of Brazil with a tribe that has had no contact with the outside world. When you look around at the forest surrounding you, all you perceive is a sea of different shades of green. Yet a tribesman can point out a lizard on a branch, a frog on leaf, a bird collecting nectar from a flower etc. Why do you have to struggle to see these when to the tribesman they are so obvious? You both have the power of vision (visual acuity) but your perceptions of what you see are very different. Over time you could learn to see as the tribesman does, with your visual cortex enhancing small colour differences to make such objects clear.

I hope this helps those who have pondered the question to answer it.


*Colour defects*
Each of our three types of cone cells contains a pigment (coloured chemical) which can absorb a certain range of light wavelengths (colours). If you map the amount of radiation (light) absorbed against the actual wave length, you get a bell-shaped curve. This is called the ‘absorption spectrum’ for that pigment. (Many, if not most absorption spectra are not smooth and bell-shaped, often having more than one peak).

The genes referred to earlier contain the information for producing each pigment. The common mutation for producing red pigment in the L cone produces a slightly different pigment with a slightly different absorption spectra. Consequently, it functions the same as the normal pigment in some wavelengths but differently in some others. 

By the way, they have already developed a bionic ‘eye’ that hooks up a ”camera” to the optic nerve, for those who have been totally blind.

Blue


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## Elapidae1 (Aug 23, 2011)

My wife says my brown shorts are green. I don't wear them anymore.


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## jack (Aug 23, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Mock what I said all you like, but you cannot argue with that statement.


if you are unable to see the wit, then we could no doubt argue black & blue.
i bring you the "good news", a Beryllium atom has an absolute number of 4 p+ in its nucleus.


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## eipper (Aug 23, 2011)

Interesting thread......

Snakes don't sense heat with their tongues like they do with labial pits.

The eyesight of a snake is believed to be quite poor in many species (this is based from the size and shape of rods and cones and the amount of receptors), where in others it is thought to be quite similar to that of mammals. There are significant differences in the vision of mammals (eg Cats and a Platypus) so why is it assumed that there would not significant differences among reptiles????

One aspect/problem with comparing reptile physiology vs. Humans is the change correlation between body temps/metabolism. At cooler temperatures reptiles function at a slower rate, this affects different parts of the reptile body in different ways, eg from brain to muscle function and from external stimuli to the brain. So a reptile with a sub PBT may not react the same, as the same reptile at its PBT to the same stimulus.

One additional point re snakes vision (is while they are predators) they are unusual that most species to not have true binocular vision, which is extremely important to the perception of distance. And yet is you look at the orientation of the heat receptors (Labial Pits) along the front and sides of a snake they are angled towards the front. From this it would be reasonable to assume that they have a version of binocular heat perception. Much like the ears of owls and some microbats that have a similar version binocular (would this be Binauditary?) hearing.

Cheers,
Scott


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 23, 2011)

Elapidae1 said:


> My wife says my brown shorts are green. I don't wear them anymore.


So does mine - she can spot a grass stain at 50 paces and there goes my most comfortable work shorts into the wash again!



*Science & Philosophy*
There are some absolutes in science – gravity, charge law, force (4 basic forces in the universe), speed of light in a vacuum, matter etc. I do understand what you are saying about the nature of science. No matter how well we may have explained something, we should never close our minds to the possibility of change. Bear in mind though that vigorous testing / assessment must take place before we relinquish our current understanding for something new.

Basically, as a science person, my concern about a statement such as “Nothing in science is absolute” is that it is selling it short, as a wishy washy, change it at will pursuit. True science is robust. A lot of correctly obtained empirical data has to be gathered before changes can even be considered. Unfortunately, there is a lot of pseudoscience out there as well, masquerading as the real thing and giving the genuine scientists a bad name.

Science actually grew out of philosophy. The earliest scientists were philosophers. If you think about it, both pursuits have a lot in common. Science seeks to understand and explain the nature of the world around us and beyond. Philosophy seeks to understand such things as the nature of reality and existence. Each uses a somewhat different tool set – science uses empirical evidence while philosophy makes use of reason and logic. 

Blue


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## kawasakirider (Aug 23, 2011)

jack said:


> if you are unable to see the wit, then we could no doubt argue black & blue.
> i bring you the "good news", a Beryllium atom has an absolute number of 4 p+ in its nucleus.



I had a chuckle when I read it, 'twas witty. I am not a fan of chemistry, but good job


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## SYNeR (Aug 24, 2011)

We don't. Goes back to basic epistemology and subjectivity - a priori and a posteriori knowledge.

Ever heard of synesthesia?

Perhaps check out Immanuel Kant's transcendental arguments. A Critique of Pure Reason is a good starting point..


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## Scleropages (Aug 24, 2011)

When you jump into others minds and see what they see it always looks different , so yes we all seem to see colors differently.
Solved.

Now can someone help me with random number gererators anmd how some people know what they will generate before an "event".

cHEERS bIG EARS!!!


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## Dipcdame (Aug 25, 2011)

slim6y said:


> .................Anyway... What it comes back to... In order to be green to collect energy from sunlight, plants all need to be a specific colour for chlorophyll to react with the sunlight. And this wavelength of light is incredibly particular...
> 
> _But is the uniform green of plants seen by each of us exactly the same, or is someone's green anothers red????_
> 
> ...



_Sorry to hear of your colour-blindness, that's an interesting one right there, which opens up a whole new bag of worms, so to speak. But with regards to this colour issue, one could also ask, do we all taste flavours the same? Why is it that some flavours are our favourites, when others just hate it, are they tasting the same thing, or does it taste different?
Same with smell, unless it is just that some people have degraded senses of smell, I can smell things around the house that my hubby can't, it's annoying, especially when it's things like the cats tray that needs emptying LOL. 
I could go on all day, couldn't I?? _


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 25, 2011)

Dipcdame said:


> _....__ But with regards to this colour issue, one could also ask, do we all taste flavours the same? Why is it that some flavours are our favourites, when others just hate it, are they tasting the same thing, or does it taste different?
> Same with smell, unless it is just that some people have degraded senses of smell, I can smell things around the house that my hubby can't, it's annoying, especially when it's things like the cats tray that needs emptying LOL.... _



Perception of odour and taste involves the mind as well as the body. There is a genetic basis to elements of smell and taste (which are very similar and interlinked). For example, because of a specific gene, some people can taste the substance PTC (phenylthiocarbamide) as very bitter, some as somewhat bitter and some not taste it at all. The genetics is not entirely straight forward – there are two common alleles (forms of the gene) and five rarer forms. Basically your sensitivity to the chemical is dependent on what pair of alleles you posses. It may also be affected by smoking and caffeine intake.

So what one person can smell and learn to ignore, another can find particularly strong and irritating. This is due to a combination of sensitivity of the receptors and perception in the brain. Lastly, and least likely to be playing a part, is the process of sensory accommodation. For example, you might be cleaning out the chook pen and when you first enter the pong is “odour incredibilis” (that should avoid an asterisk or two) but after a short while you don’t even notice the smell. Your brain automatically stops smelling it for you.

Blue


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## longqi (Aug 27, 2011)

With colour vision there is a very simple test you can do with a group of people

Let them look at a group of objects of varying colour
Remove the objects
Give them a paint chart and ask them to match each object to the chart

The amount of variation in the replies will blow you away
Especially in the red/green areas

Now bring back the objects and do it again with the charts present
Most will match them perfectly
So although the colour they see may be different to what I see it doesnt matter
because it is still constant


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## Bradchip (Aug 29, 2011)

I've really enjoyed this thread  Thanks for posting. 

I've often wondered the same thing


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## kawasakirider (Aug 29, 2011)

longqi said:


> With colour vision there is a very simple test you can do with a group of people
> 
> Let them look at a group of objects of varying colour
> Remove the objects
> ...



I don't see how that would work...?? 

If 2 people looked at a green object, then were told to pick the corresponding colour from a chart, wouldn't they pick the same thing? Because even if their greens looked different, the colour of the object and the colour of the chart would still be the same to everyone.

I didn't explain that well... It's like, I don't see how someone would look at a ball that's blue, and then see the exact same colour blue, but think it's different?


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## Bradchip (Aug 29, 2011)

It's kinda hard to explain (and nothing to do with colour blindness). It's all about perception. 

I see green leaves, but if I viewing the world from someone elses head....then those leaves could be purple. 

Is there any way to differentiate how people perceive things? 
We're taught that leaves are green, poo is brown, and sky is blue, but MY version of green, brown, and blue might be completely different to somebody elses.


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## longqi (Aug 31, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I don't see how that would work...??
> 
> If 2 people looked at a green object, then were told to pick the corresponding colour from a chart, wouldn't they pick the same thing? Because even if their greens looked different, the colour of the object and the colour of the chart would still be the same to everyone.
> 
> I didn't explain that well... It's like, I don't see how someone would look at a ball that's blue, and then see the exact same colour blue, but think it's different?



You are partially correct
With a colour chart in front of them they will colour match perfectly
But without the chart and the object together there will be lots of mistakes


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## Schlumpe (Aug 31, 2011)

Great thread going on here . . . I work for a Printing Company in the Prepress department where it is all about colour and the Degrees Kelvin (amount of light image is viewed in). Way too many things to put down here but look up some of these links. 1st one is a colour test. X-Rite: Get exactly the color you need, every time, anywhere in the world.

2nd link colour theory (pretty full on) Quality In Print: Color tolerancing

And yes I have to understand it all!


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## slim6y (Sep 1, 2011)

Sorry to jump on there Schlumpe - just so you know it's just Kelvin not degrees Kelvin - it's degrees Celsius... But not degrees Kelvin.

But what is very funny - the first google for "Kelvin colour scale" comes up with degrees Kelvin (which is incorrect).

However, I am not entirely sure why the degrees symbol is used for the centigrade scale which is completely linear... If someone wants to clear that up for me I'm more than happy to hear it!


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