# Eastern brown full envenomation bite



## redbellybite (Oct 27, 2010)

After reading the other thread ,and seeing some people's so called 'nesessary' thinking that you need to kill the snake to ID rubbish thinking ...thought I would actually tell you what happened and show you a few actual pics (they arent the best as I used my phone) of my husband in the ICU at Nambour Hospital on the Sunshine Coast QLD ...this was on the 10th of March 2010..

Senario ,He is a carpenter by trade,He lifted up a roof tile ,felt a wack NO PAIN ,he first stuck his thumb in his mouth as a reaction ..had the good sense to get down off the ladder ,was feeling a bit paranoid as to what bit him ,he said he told himself to get a grip ,then he felt a wave come over him ,he then thought [email protected]##$$% and tried to get back to his work truck but collapsed as he got to his door .Fortunantly the lady at the house was following him as he said to her he thought he had been bitten ...when he fell to his knees she was able to brace herself and allowing Matt to slide down her body before hitting the bitumen...that was it for him ,he remembers nothing more till being inside the ambulance ,but the people that were around him applying first aid said it was the scariest thing that they had witnessed,he fitted 3times (specialist said he had 3 heart attacks)he foamed at the mouth and started turning purple blue/black ...HE DIED ...the ambos got him back ,and rushed him off to our local hospital to stablise and ID the snake etc ...
He was given anti ven and a trial study of FROZEN FRESH PLASMA ..he had no clotting ability what so ever and so all the grazes and I mean TINY miniscule grazes he got from hitting the road BLED NON STOP ...he had 3 compression bandages around his head and other bandages on his body to try and stop the loss of blood ...He was in criticle condition and was transferred down to ICU by ambulance...Its been 7 months now and he is still seeing our local GP and is also under one of the top specialists care,who deals with toxins...He has got nerve damage and his body still is not 100% although he is way better then a few months ago ..NOW DID WE THINK ITS NESSESARY TO KILL THE SNAKE ...NO ...DO WE HATE SNAKES...NO ..EVEN THOUGH THEY ALMOST KILLED HIM AND MADE ME LOSE HIM ...NO its wasnt the snakes fault at all it was a bad situation and an unfortunant accident ,that sadly the poor 3 FOOT(yes thats right a small one)
was put out of its misery by me ,due to it having terrible injuries caused by it being caught up under guttering and it had severd itself almost in half ..it reacted because it was in pain and scared and obviously thought Matt was a threat ..

My point is YOU that say KILL them are willing to put yourselves in harms way all because of your NAIVE thinking ....MORE FOOL YOU!

here are a few pics 









and see even after all this he can give me a smile


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 27, 2010)

Now, that smile is love.... delirious, morphine-induced, envenomated love 

Amazing story, mate. So glad he is on the up and up. Is he back working yet? Or still not well enough?


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## redbellybite (Oct 27, 2010)

We are hoping that he will be able to get back soon ..he sees the specialist again in November so will know after that as he will have the last lot of tests results back by then ...its been a rough few months for him and me (he drives me insane being at home he gets bored to easy ) ...


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 27, 2010)

All my sympathy to both of you - rough times, no doubt. It's certainly nice that it hasn't changed your opinion or attitude towards vens or whether they should be killed etc. But, personally, it's nicer to know that you're both going okay after such a major and scary event


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## cockney red (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks for that, RBB, and good luck with your old mans full recovery


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## Scleropages (Oct 27, 2010)

The Brown was in a roof?


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## redbellybite (Oct 27, 2010)

Scleropages said:


> The Brown was in a roof?


YEP its not that uncommon ....ask Jonno ...CALLOUTS can involve eastern browns in roof cavities...although in this case,I believe a bird of prey dropped it onto the roof ,as there were no trees ,fencing or any other type of climbing structure around the two story place


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## The-Freak (Oct 27, 2010)

Amazing story, good to hear all is well on the mend tho.


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## sammy_sparkles (Oct 27, 2010)

thanks for sharing, 
hopefully he gets the all clear in november.

there needs to be a pamphlet made for the general public or something, as i have asked my friends what they would do in simmilar situations, they ALL said kill the snake first...


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## beatlloydy (Oct 27, 2010)

We RBB...sorry to hear this....your story of your hubby has made me do a reassessment of my environment...I go out MTB'ing quite often..sometimes I remember to take compression bandages...sometimes not...but even if I have em sounds like in a worse case scenario they would be useless unless I tell all my friends about them and they are all aware of how to administer the first aid (If I am the poor sod who is bitten). I was thinking If bitten a victim could calmly stop what they are doing and apply compression etc...sounds like this is not how it works...so I guess we need to ensure that everyone travelling in a group is aware of where the bandages are and how to apply them.

Your husbands misfortune will possibly help others lives be spared...thanks for sharing this with us and hope he makes 100% recovery.

Michael


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## redbellybite (Oct 27, 2010)

Michael ,I asked him after he felt the 'wave' why he didnt just plop his butt to the ground and stay put ...he panicked...and was trying to get back to his truck to ring me ...WORSE mistake as it pumped it quicker ..it only took a few moments,we are not talking half hours nor 15 mins ,we are talking 3-4 minutes tops before he collapsed...now had he sat down straight away and remained as still as he could he may have had longer time ...Matt copped a big bite ,it showed up in the testing and so all the happenings after the intial bite ,like moving ,fast walking ,panic ,may have lead to his undoing ,also being bitten on the thumb pad was not the best place to cop a bite ...always take atleast 2 CBs with you and show each other what to do if bitten and how to apply properly a CB it will bide you time .


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 27, 2010)

beatlloydy said:


> We RBB...sorry to hear this....your story of your hubby has made me do a reassessment of my environment...I go out MTB'ing quite often..sometimes I remember to take compression bandages...sometimes not...but even if I have em sounds like in a worse case scenario they would be useless unless I tell all my friends about them and they are all aware of how to administer the first aid (If I am the poor sod who is bitten). I was thinking If bitten a victim could calmly stop what they are doing and apply compression etc...sounds like this is not how it works...so I guess we need to ensure that everyone travelling in a group is aware of where the bandages are and how to apply them.
> 
> Your husbands misfortune will possibly help others lives be spared...thanks for sharing this with us and hope he makes 100% recovery.
> 
> Michael


 
My partner MTBs all the time, and I hadn't really even thought of this. But, often he goes on his own! (geez, I hope I don't have to take up MTBing now.... )


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## blakehose (Oct 27, 2010)

My dad goes mountain biking often - during summer he is always coming home telling me about the snakes he saw...It's a bit worrying, considering all we get around here are elapids.

On topic though - I hope your hubby continues to make improvements RBB. All the best to him!


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## shellfisch (Oct 27, 2010)

Wow, what a story :shock:

Hope he is back to normal life soon.


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## Tristan (Oct 27, 2010)

that is pretty scary RBB, i grew up in the Kimberley had a few close calls with Mulgas but never got bit, one got into our house i found it at night in the dark mind you lol, another i found in our back yard as well, well the cat found it thought it would be fun to play with it, i think its just lucky the snake was a bit sluggish.

oh perhaps your hubby got some of my blood or plasma or platelets im o- and donate regularly tho i doubt they ship the blood over east.


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## redbellybite (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks guys and yes I have confidence in the fact he will get better ..its just a matter of time ...My main issue about this thread was to get across to people that have that bad idea of trying to catch or kill ...look at the pics that could be you ..it was bad enough it happened to Matt and he wasnt there to catch or kill ..he simply lifted up a roof tile ...You set out to kill cause your angry n upset and scared as to what happened to your loved one or mate and could end up sharing the same ICU ....


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## -Peter (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks for that RBB, thumbs up to both of you. 
He'll be back up, fitter than ever but he wont be the same. Some things will change. Every August is my wifes birhday, the same time as the Jasmine flowers. Now it smells awful. I cant stand it, One of my eyes is out of alignment, I get tunnel vision when I'm tired and other odds and sods but the snake that did this to me is still alive. In fact its in the gargage.


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## cement (Oct 27, 2010)

All the best for your mans recovery, he must be a good bloke if he's a chippy! 
He was really lucky, to have had the support on site that he so obviously needed. 

Can I add here that crepe bandages are now deemed next to useless and the stretchy/elastic bandages are the way to go.

I know a bloke that was tagged under the armpit by a coastal Taipan and it was only because he was with mate that he survived. The right first aid can help, but a lot of the time it is having people around you that know what to do that makes the difference.

They should mandatory teach snake bite first aid in schools in Australia every student, every year.

Its amazing how many people i meet on relocation jobs that have absolutely no idea.

All the Best of luck with the recovery. I hope the side effects don't knock him around to badly.


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## cement (Oct 27, 2010)

Now that I read it, I don't mean that post above to seem like I am knocking your hubs first aid treatment, far, far from that.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 27, 2010)

wow RBB that's the second story like this i have heard where the victim has passed out within a few minutes. In other words if you are alone or around people that dont have or know how to use a correct bandage, you are unconscious and dying before you could administer a bandage yourself let alone reach it in the house or car. What chance do your kids have, they would bolt straight to you...


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 27, 2010)

Hope your husband makes a full recovery soon


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## redbellybite (Oct 28, 2010)

Matts first aid treatment by the ambo's and one of the doctors was terrible ,I dont wanna knock them ,cause in the end he survived ,but when an ambo crew FAILS to use compression bandages on a OBVIOUS snake bite victim and then a doctor accidently in a mad rush to the head,punctures Matts femoral artery,whilst he has NO and I stress NO clotting ability at all .Matt started to bleed badly and the swelling and bruising from this action was an eye opener ,try n get that pic up later ...So my point is when the professionals make MAJOR mistakes I believe EVERY AUSTRALIAN SHOULD BE PROGRAMED HOW TO APPLY SNAKE BITE FIRST AID CORRECTLY ...it should be taught from an early age and basically be in grained into our heads ...anyway its obvious Matts time wasnt then ,and as his wife am forever grateful 
ok here is the picture showing some slight bruising and swelling


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 28, 2010)

RBB - are u looking into any kind of civil action against, at least, the ambos? I agree, docs in ED make mistakes and then have to fix them all the time (not that I work in med myself, just heard from my partner his doc friends from RBH), but for the ambos not to apply a compression bandage, which lead to unnecessary trauma to his heart, brain, systems etc., I would consider to be a kind of negligence... Have u considered looking any further into this?


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 28, 2010)

Thanks for sharing your story RBB. Many people don't realise that even though few people die from snalebite in Australia, lots are severely incapacitated for long periods, even for life in some cases. This is why free-handling is such a worry...

J.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 28, 2010)

That is more of Matt than I needed to see... 
Glad to hear he is doing better! Yeh, since getting into reptiles, in my initial searches for info on snakebite first aid, I was surprised at how well hidden it is! I would have thought, in a country like this where some of the most dangerous snakes on earth live in suburbia, there would have been some sort of "Slip, slop,slap" type adverts to show ordinary folks what to do in the event of snakebite. Sounds like a good project for some up and coming young herper with A/V skills!


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## waruikazi (Oct 28, 2010)

Here's another example of what can heppen. Didn't die but i'm betting he wished he did.


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## Waterrat (Oct 28, 2010)

I just started reading this thread, what can I say ..... thanks for sharing RBB and I wish your hubby fast and complete recovery.

cheers
M


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 28, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Here's another example of what can heppen. Didn't die but i'm betting he wished he did.


 
:shock:


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## shellfisch (Oct 28, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> Here's another example of what can heppen. Didn't die but i'm betting he wished he did.


 
Sorry, I know it is far from funny, but - 'my mate was trying to keep me awake by whacking me in the head and pouring beer on me' :lol:

That could only happen in Australia :lol:


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## waruikazi (Oct 28, 2010)

He was found by a local rag ten years later and he claimed he was trying to kill himself. Befor ei knew this i found the original story so ridiculous that is was funny.


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## shellfisch (Oct 28, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Thanks for sharing your story RBB. Many people don't realise that even though few people die from snalebite in Australia, lots are severely incapacitated for long periods, even for life in some cases. This is why free-handling is such a worry... J.


 
I have to agree.
I truly did not appreciate just how sick a person could get :shock:
In my ignorance, I thought - go to the hospital, get an injection, all's good.
And I think a better knowledge of snake bite first aid can only be a good thing.


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## slim6y (Oct 28, 2010)

I know this is a long shot... But my daughter is friends with a girl whose mother is currently at JCU working on a PhD to invent a pressure bandage that is 'perfect' for all Australian elapid bites. 

It's very interesting research and I am quite impressed with the research gone into it... However, I've never had enough time to talk to her and really get to know the outcomes of the research - I will try to get the paper from her when she's finished... Hopefully my daughter stays friends with her daughter 

RBB - thanks for sharing the story - to most of us (if not all) we find that intriguing, interesting, amazing etc etc - it's a shame that your husband has been so affected by a creature defending itself.

I notice a lot of people talking of mountain biking - I've mentioned in other threads that I was biking in the cane paddocks when a taipan reared its head to 'get away' from us and the bikes - lucky - because I would never had seen it unless it had actually reared up... No bandages... no first aid... nothing... several hundred metres from a house... and... no phones... doubt that if any of us had been hit - we'd probably not be here....


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## Karly (Oct 28, 2010)

My heart goes out to you both RBB. 
Is it OK if I put a link to this thread on my facebook page? I know its a long shot trying to educate the general population about all the things we have living in our backyards that could potentially kill us... but if I can get at least one of my friends to read this, they might tell someone and so on...


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## dossy (Oct 28, 2010)

this may be a stupid question but i have hear that once you have been biten and venom has gotten into you you actuly never get back to normal due to residue and you get head aches and other things like that is this true??

ontopic i hope your huby gets better and back to work and im glad to see that even after dying 3 times (assuming each heart attack he died) and filled with all sort of nasties that he can give you a smile....(he was probly hallucinating and thought you were his yr 6 teacher  ) good luck rbb


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## voodoo (Oct 28, 2010)

Wow...amazing story Nat, Glad everything worked out.


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## Firepac (Oct 28, 2010)

redbellybite said:


> ...So my point is when the professionals make MAJOR mistakes I believe EVERY AUSTRALIAN SHOULD BE PROGRAMED HOW TO APPLY SNAKE BITE FIRST AID CORRECTLY ...i



I totally agree and also believe that every snake catcher should also carry a laminated card which has the correct treatment, in medical terms, for snake bite envenomation, which is given to the staff at the hospital. This will help ensure that mistakes are not made by the medical profession especially in more rural/remote areas.

I keep mine in the same container as i keep my compression bandages so it is always on hand when needed.


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## spiderdan (Oct 28, 2010)

Far out what a stoy RBB hope your hubby is feeling better.
I'm a snake catcher at Yulara (Ayers Rock Resort) and this story makes me think what if someone is bit out at Uluru? No phone reception and I wonder how many of the coach drivers/tour guides know snake bite first aid.
I think I will be having some talks with some tour groups here to make shore they all know.


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## Gusbus (Oct 28, 2010)

thanks for the info, hope he gets better, very interesting thread


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## fauce (Oct 29, 2010)

Hope he makes a full recovery! Wow scary stuff. It would be interesting to know how much difference it would have made if he had stayed still and got a bandage on straight away. 

When i get to a rescue and it is a deadly snake i always tell the homeowner what species it is and the basic first aid for if i get bitten during the rescue, show them i have a compression bandage and tell them not to let the ambos take it off if i was to get bitten and pass out before the ambulance got there. I have heard so many storys of them either taking the bandage off or not putting one on in the first place. 

Good luck to him for his recovery.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 30, 2010)

Thanks for sharing redbellybite, great reading and good advice. 

Also the best to Matt and hoping he makes a full recovery.

I know with EB's they are No.2 in the world and normally you would have at least 15 to 30 mins before feeling the effects of a bite, but Matt only having a few minutes before he collapsed has me thinking it was a direct hit to a main artery? I know he paniked and all, but still you should have a lot longer than a few minutes. Be very interested to here back from you if this was the case, as this would throw all my knowledge out the door!


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## peterjohnson64 (Oct 30, 2010)

It wouldn't be a hit to an artery as snake venom travels through the limphatic system, not the circulatory system. That's why we use a compression bandage and not a torneque. Some initial ractions can be caused by shock. You realise you have just been tagged by something that can kill you and your blood pressure plummets so you feint. (Its happened to me with something that COULDN'T kill me but I didnt realiuse that at the time). Although I am not saying that is what happened in this case as I wasn't there so I can't comment at all.

Very intersting post from Paul as well regarding the research into a bandage. The best one we have found is one designed for sprained ankles. It has rectangles on it that become squares when you are applying the right amount of pressure. We contacted the manufacturers and were told that the bandage is not adequate for snake bite and should not be used as the pressure is not enough. Our only issue was that it was the one that applied the MOST pressure from aLL the banadages we could find. I still carry it but I guess I can't sue the bandage manufacturer.

I am lucky (and I guess its ironic condsidering whose thread this is) that my only real bite is from a red belly. It was at a call out to a university so there were plenty of people around. The only problem was that they were more stressed than so and I had to apply the bandage myself!! There was also no need to capture the snake (although I did after it bit me) because they have venom detection kits at the hospital anyway.

Thanks for your story RBB. I wish your hubby the best in his recovery. It is unusual to see a person bitten by a snake "accidentally" if you know what I mean. Most people are intentionally interacting with a snake when they are bitten.


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## slim6y (Oct 30, 2010)

peterjohnson64 said:


> It wouldn't be a hit to an artery as snake venom travels through the limphatic system, not the circulatory system. That's why we use a compression bandage and not a torneque. Some initial ractions can be caused by shock. You realise you have just been tagged by something that can kill you and your blood pressure plummets so you feint. (Its happened to me with something that COULDN'T kill me but I didnt realiuse that at the time). Although I am not saying that is what happened in this case as I wasn't there so I can't comment at all.
> 
> Very intersting post from Paul as well regarding the research into a bandage. The best one we have found is one designed for sprained ankles. It has rectangles on it that become squares when you are applying the right amount of pressure. We contacted the manufacturers and were told that the bandage is not adequate for snake bite and should not be used as the pressure is not enough. Our only issue was that it was the one that applied the MOST pressure from aLL the banadages we could find. I still carry it but I guess I can't sue the bandage manufacturer.
> 
> ...


 
I can get you in contact with her if you like Peter - shes at JCU up here... Very interesting indeed.


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## redbellybite (Oct 31, 2010)

Just to clear up a few ????? for some ,Matt isnt a catcher nor was he there to catch ,snake just happened to be in a very rare spot and a BAD LUCK situation happened .(THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO TAKE CARE AT ALL TIMES IN ALL SITUATIONS ESPECIALLY IN SNAKE SEASON AND NOT PRESUME A SNAKE CANT BE THERE especially you tradies and the likes of people that do home and garden work now)
Now the reason he got nailed so quickly was due to where he got bit ,He was bitten on what the doctors said was his pulse line in the thumb ,it was a big amount of venom as it was a highly stressed snake and they seem to think this was why he had such a short time before collapsing,He didnt know what had bitten him and it wasnt untill he felt a cold sensation rise up from his toes to his head and his heart pump hard that he realised he was in trouble ,firstly after the intial 'WACK' feeling he tried to convince himself he was just being a bit paranoid so feinting was not the thing that happened here ...he tried to walk back a few metres to where his truck was parked ,so we are talking maybe 10 -15 m up a slight incline of a driveway ,his eyes were glassy and he was trembling by that short time and the Lady could see this and said to him "awwww Matt you look terrible..."he replied "I feel bad"...and that was it down for the count ...and the rest is what happend in the first post.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks for letting us know redbellybite, so i wasn't to far off the mark (meaning an almost direct hit to the vein).

Poor bugger, when you explained the symptons I could almost feel and picture what he felt and looked like. It reminds when you go under anesthetic for major surgery...when they first put that needle in, you can feel a chilling cold almost painful sensation run up your arm till it reaches your shoulder and than it's good night


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## syeph8 (Oct 31, 2010)

bloody hell, scary stuff, for a snake to be THAT pissed off and to be that unlucky on where to get bitten really is bewildering. best of luck to the both of you during his recovery.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Oct 31, 2010)

Huh ha, a lot more than you know dpeica


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## dpeica (Oct 31, 2010)

oh


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## -Peter (Nov 1, 2010)

Brown snake venom does not need to go straight to the vein for a person to feel the effects sooner than 15 minutes. There are many factors inviolved and different people react in different ways.
Often bite victims will go into cardiac arrest in the first few minutes.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 1, 2010)

This is a deadly serious topic and the more educated we all become perhaps we can save a life
I can say you really don't know what it's like until you've experienced a bite to someone precious and near to you.
Learn all you can and apply it, don't rely on the ambos and medical teams, use your knowledge for FIRST AID, before they arrive, sometimes they can take hours and you could be seriously ill.
An excellent website is: Australian Venom Research Unit which contains very valuable information and easy to understand.
Keep safe everyone and learn all you can
Cheers
Sandee 

ps....don't leave your compression bandage on your shopping list...and if a bite is suspected....DON'T PANIC that is no.1


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## dpeica (Nov 1, 2010)

.


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## cris (Nov 2, 2010)

dpeica said:


> Yes what Peter said. Thats what I was getting at..
> Also keep in mind a bandage won't do **** all in some circumstances apart from giving you a false sense of security. It's still good practice though.


 
It could be BS, but i heard or read somewhere that a brown snake can(or has) killed in under 15 minutes regardless of first aid(a brain clot or something maybe?), is that true? As you suggest this doesnt mean you should ignore first aid, more so not get bitten, ever. Does anyone with a proper envenomation recover fully?


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## redbellybite (Nov 2, 2010)

Cris it could be bloody right on the mark there, had Matt fallen hard on his head ,instead of, slide along the road ..the lady that was there actually prevented him from falling by using her body to allow him to slide...His head injury may have been fatal due to the non clotting abillity,and having a brain bleed ..this was another major concern with the doctors who were treating him .


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## waruikazi (Nov 2, 2010)

cris said:


> It could be BS, but i heard or read somewhere that a brown snake can(or has) killed in under 15 minutes regardless of first aid(a brain clot or something maybe?), is that true? As you suggest this doesnt mean you should ignore first aid, more so not get bitten, ever. Does anyone with a proper envenomation recover fully?



I can't cite a reference but i remember a story of a bloke who was bitten on the hand or wrist and died of heart attack in under 20 mins.


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## Kristy_07 (Nov 2, 2010)

waruikazi said:


> I can't cite a reference but i remember a story of a bloke who was bitten on the hand or wrist and died of heart attack in under 20 mins.


 
My partner, who's a cardiac scientist, has heard similar stories. Been called into hospital for emergency snake bite, gotten to work, told to go home again, because the patient was DOA. It just depends on how the individual person is affected.


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## bigi (Nov 2, 2010)

wow, how unlucky and lucky can your hubby be RBB. Truely an incredible story and one i thank you for sharing. It should make everyone realise that looking for wild herps is not a game. i used to look for snakes as a young teenager, how ignorant was i.
I wish you both all the best in getting hubby back to full health. Life throws obsticles our way at times and he is showing the strength to overcome this. All the best.


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## -Peter (Nov 4, 2010)

There was a member on this site who died within minutes of being bitten.


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## junglepython2 (Nov 4, 2010)

QLD woman dies...... Queensland woman dies after brown snake bite


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## garthy (Nov 4, 2010)

Scleropages said:


> The Brown was in a roof?


 
Yeah, I got called out for a snake in the rafters of a hay shed, I thought "you beauty I get to see a wild diamond!!"....
....It was a brown, how it climbed up there I don't know but it was an interesting catch.


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## garthy (Nov 4, 2010)

Firepac said:


> I totally agree and also believe that every snake catcher should also carry a laminated card which has the correct treatment, in medical terms, for snake bite envenomation, which is given to the staff at the hospital. This will help ensure that mistakes are not made by the medical profession especially in more rural/remote areas.
> 
> I keep mine in the same container as i keep my compression bandages so it is always on hand when needed.


 
Good point about hte card, I will go into production mode imediately


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