# Best green for your Beardie



## Gonzo (Apr 15, 2008)

I've started a new thread for this discussion, as it doesn't fit in the one it evolved from, which was about feeding times.



Gonzo said:


> Dragon Lady, why do you say not to use cos lettuce?
> 
> It is also known as romaine lettuce, and according to the "Bearded Dragon Manual", it is the overall best green to use. Check out pg. 57 if you have it.
> I use it almost every day, supplemented with other greens, fruit and vegetables.
> ...





dragon lady said:


> Gonzo....
> Coz...(Romaine) & Iceberg lettuce,has very little if no natural vitamins....but is great to help with hydration
> thats why we all do use lettuce....in summer...
> Reptiles...in this case we are talking dragons...drink very little & in the higher heats hydration is needed
> ...



Dragon Lady - Where does your information come from?

What exactly do you mean by your comment, "Isnt the "Bearded Dragon Manual"....American?"?

Gonzo


----------



## dragon lady (Apr 16, 2008)

*Gonzo...*just found your thread

for starters.....in no way did i mean to upset you!
I have also bought American books/magazines on reptiles...on our reptiles
& have also Australian books

I would soundly trust Australian information before overseas...i do believe the book you mentioned is American

Having bred other animals it is wide known that although great for hydration...Iceberg/Coz lettuce has little nutritional value....especially when you compare the value of endive,bukchoy etc
I did say it does have great hydration value....& know breeders who use it for that purpose only

My information comes from Vets & Reptile Breeders that i have spoken to over a period of years...
plus my own experience
just like many will not feed spinach ...i believe its too high in iron, i may be wrong
unfortunately i cant find my vegetable chart

I have also bred rabbits of variety,guinea pigs,budgies,.....
taken in via rescue ,native animals & gotten correct diet & nutritional values from vets that say the same....

Gonzo...i believe this would have been more constructive via pm....its ok...you cant offend me


----------



## FredBear (Apr 16, 2008)

Gonzo do not listen to a lot of the rubbish info around............its really sad that that people think they know it all and go against what experts in the field of herps say and recomend. Iceburg and Cos lettuse are of no nutritional value and should not be fed as they have a tedancy to make the beardy scour. Scouring then causes a whole heap of problems in itself. The best greens for beardies are Bok Choi, Endive, Wom Bok, broccolli, zuchini, snow peas and any of the other asian greens. They also need small amounts of capsicum, strawberry, apple and any other non acidic fruit.
Hope this helps any more questions PM me.....Cheers


----------



## Kirby (Apr 16, 2008)

the bearded dragon manuals and care books are over 8 years old. extremely OUT DATED. and should only be taken as smokey guidlines, seek online veterinarians and nutritionalists. and those that do research and studies behind what they preach. and look around for conflicting advice etc. do your own research as well.. 

heres a list of appropriate foods, and those that are not.. 

http://beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html

the BEST ones we can find in Australia, are Endive, Alfalfa and Dandelion greens.. 

you can also add some arugula, bok choy (or other occasional foods on the list.)

you also want vegetables, (although greens are most of the salad) you can sue squash, beans and carrot. 

then fruits, mango, papaya and berries (strawbs, blue and rasb.) 

hope this helps.. 

(i'd also like to add that broccoli and spinach bind to calcium and slow their intake (not good) in high amounts it can actually stop their absorption)

avocado and rhubarb are toxic too them, so is onion, garlic, mushrooms and eggplant,and acidic fruits liek oranges and mandarins arent all too good either.


----------



## dragon lady (Apr 16, 2008)

*Kirby...*thankyou for the spinach update....i knew it was a no no ,,but at that time of night couldnt think why?

thankyou


----------



## Gonzo (Apr 16, 2008)

Let me start by saying that the title of this thread is not accurate. I just want to know where Dragon Lady’s information about Cos lettuce, having very little or no nutrients, comes from.

I ‘m not upset Dragon Lady. You had a go at American herpetological literature, not at me. I‘m a little disappointed if anything.
When I asked where your information came from, I was hoping that you would quote a book, or reference a web page, so I could check out the information for myself.
Instead, I’ve done a search, and found vitamin and mineral data for cos, bok choy and iceberg. Here is the information.




Source of information is The United States Department Of Agriculture http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=8964

Looking at the data I can understand why people avoid iceberg.

You said that cos has “very little if no natural vitamins” however the information above shows that, compared to bok choy, cos has a higher level of nutrients in 10 areas, and its calcium/phosphorus ratio is acceptable at just over 1:1.

FreadBear you also say that “iceberg and cos lettuce are of no nutritional value”, but I don’t see a whole lot of zero’s in the nutritional data. Yes, the iceberg is lowest in most areas and not worth using when there are a lot of better options. However I think cos compares well with bok choy, and does not deserve to be grouped with iceberg in the do not use category.

Kirby - that is an interesting website, however I would really like to know what criteria Veronica uses to determine which category to place each food into.

Gonzo


----------



## dragon lady (Apr 17, 2008)

*Have A Nice Life*

GONZO... i stated "*Isnt the Bearded Dragon Manual .......American"*

sorry that you *ASSUMED* that opinion....

i simply do not want to debate any issue with you.....

other than vet & other breeder opinion....i have always gone by instinct...
my head isnt burried into books....yes have read many,not that i agree...or want to debate ideas with you

my opinion is simply....experience vs literature... experience will win everytime!
there are many trusted,valued,EXPERIENCED opinions that i agree with....
people write books....not they will have hands on experience with their ideas.

want to argue...debate.....fine....have fun....by yourself!....& have a lovely day as i will :lol:


----------



## Leigh (Apr 17, 2008)

Kirby said:


> http://beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html



i use this list like a bible, i trust it. any reason i shouldn't?


----------



## Australis (Apr 17, 2008)

Dragonlady, your signature is.. err


----------



## Spinipes (Apr 17, 2008)

hmm, when we were growing up we had a bearded, for veges we fed it romaine lettuce, ice berg lettuce, bok choy, and carrot and bugs we found in the garden. we caught the ebd as a juvenile and kept it in and small aviry on the deck, now it pased away at the ripe old age of 16 so the salad must have been terrible for it
I dont believe most of this "nutritionalists" grabage on that site. look what beardies eat in the wild, we have one on our property that eats straberries yet its says on the site that they are not so good. i think the lizard knows what it likes to eathmm, someone post what they think is good for the lizard and people treat it like a bible. i wouldn't belive 90% of thestuff thats posted on the internet.


----------



## PremierPythons (Apr 17, 2008)

I've always found Bok Choi to be an excellent green for Beardies... I always use it as the base for my Beardie Salads...


----------



## Spinipes (Apr 17, 2008)

PremierPythons said:


> I've always found Bok Choi to be an excellent green for Beardies... I always use it as the base for my Beardie Salads...


 
same, its great only $1 at the supermarket


----------



## dragon lady (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes....i was a bad dragon lady....so my signature will come back as time passes

i stated that iceberg/coz lettuce had no nutritional value...great for hydration
whats the big deal? other greens are better...but not as good as the spoken of for hydration
its not as if we all only feed iceberg/coz lettuce...for veg & thats it!
my experience tells me....& also backup from vet & breeders
that a better substitue for hatchies...to get a better start....is other known greens
preferably native greens...dandelions,hybiscus,milk thistle,...flower petals-rose-geranium-hybiscus
bokchoy varieties,endive etc
i prefer by experience not to use iceberg/coz lettuce as a main staple green....
sorry to offend anyone


----------



## Aslan (Apr 17, 2008)

*Dragon Lady* - I agree with you in regards to Iceberg lettuce - but what exactly has your experience shown...? I find it a little hard to understand how your experiences have informed you of nutritional value...?

I have found that a diet high in Iceberg lettuce leads to runnier stools...

I primarily use Bok Choy, Pak Choy, Choy Sum and Baby Endive and then put some extras in for variety of texture and colour...mostly chopped Carrot with the occasional fruit pieces...


----------



## Miss B (Apr 17, 2008)

As far as leafy greens go, my beardies get mostly bok choy and wombok (chinese cabbage) - they go nuts for both. Then I mix in some other veges, such as carrot, slivers of pumpkin, sliced green beans, etc.


----------



## NinaPeas (Apr 17, 2008)

I have read in a few different places that iceberg wasn't that great, and it can cause diorrhea. I haven't had a problem with it, but I grow all my own lettuce and the beardies get about 4 different varieties.


----------



## Spinipes (Apr 17, 2008)

sorry its a bit off topic but,: when you cut up buk choy cut off the end and plant them the garden, water them every second day and you will have a full sized buk choy plant within a month, i actually grow my own now.


----------



## FredBear (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks for the tip Spinipes.....forgot that one.


----------



## dragon lady (Apr 17, 2008)

That was great...*Spinipes*...i will try it!

*Aslan...*thankyou...i think...
yes lettuce has a high moisture content...


Gonzo..... i dont know why...decided to make this a public debate....instead of PM'ing me & asking my opinion
maybe he thought it was some how a direct attempt to hurt him...?...i dont see how

over time...you learn many things...not that you write every thing down..& cataloged reasons why!
this is called life's experience...

if you trip up & break your ankle because you didnt tie your shoe laces.....you tie them up....you learn!

If ive learnt something....doesnt matter what or how many decades ago...
& then you see that you can share the information .....you do that!

1. Ive learnt at a young age....not to use iceberg/coz lettuce as a main staple...
as yes...stools get runny(thanks Aslan)
the animal with lose condition rather quickly
therefore ...no matter what else they eat...it wont give them much benefit 
2.The animals that were referred to...for help... were australian...
i have seen too many people treat books that were written by non Australians as the be all & end all!
& the reader doesnt take in consideration that our climate,seasons,daylight hours,vegetation, live prey entirely differs to our overseas friends....



And that is my opinion....not that i enforce that it is everyones!
i truly dont mean to offend anyone...sorry if i did


----------



## liasis (Apr 17, 2008)

get reptiles austrlia magazine vol3 issue 5 realy good article on feeding lizards list a great selection of fruit and vege to feed your lizards on i recomend anyone with lizards get it and read it


----------



## Miss_Croft (Apr 17, 2008)

This is going to be a bit off the topic – but I am going to talk about bearded dragon food as a whole and then talk a little about recommendations on greens.

Studies of stomach contents of wild bearded dragons in Australia showed that when young the lizards eat almost 50% live food and 50% plants, and when mature, they eat mostly (65-90%) plant matter. Observations of thousands of dragons in breeding facilities suggest simular food preferences occur when these lizards are in captivity.

Hoser states they prey on a variety of insects and small invertabrates such as grasshoppers, termites, insect larvae, cockroaches, ants, spiders and when very hungry even eat occasional small rodent or lizard. 

The above two statements comes from http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/pogona-vitticeps-importing.pdf

Most insects eaten should deliver just over 50% protein. My calculation adult bearded dragons should get a maximum of around 12-15% protein and have a high fibre diet. This brings me to the issue – all the dragon feed I have looked at has a very high protein (Up to 30%) and low fibre. This is fine for a juvenile dragon – but not that good for and adult. (Lowest I have found was 23%). Not sure what brand would supply low protein and high fibre diet required for an adult bearded dragon. 

As for greens I suggest the following are good for bearded dragons:
Dandelion both the leaves and flowers
Plantains (both rainbow and greater) 
Red and white clover 
Mustard greens 
Rose 
Normal grasses could also be good – but not as good as the above mentioned greens as they are high in silica and I doubt the bearded dragons stomach is able to cope with it. 

I would avoid spinach, kale (Cabbage, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Brussels sprouts) as they are high in oxalic acid. Oxalic acid tends to remove calcium from their bodies and can course Metabolic bone disease. 

Lettuce is an interesting one – they are probably best fed in moderation as they have been reported coursing the runs – leading to dehydration. I have read leafy lettuces are ok.

Also remember non-acidic fruits (Apples, pares…) are good.


I question the statement garlic is poisonous to bearded dragons – garlic or garlic extract is found in most commercial animal feed including bearded dragon food (Look up the recipe)


----------



## Kirby (Apr 17, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> I question the statement garlic is poisonous to bearded dragons – garlic or garlic extract is found in most commercial animal feed including bearded dragon food (Look up the recipe)



a keen note to mention also is that pellet foods are rubbish, a bunch of bi-products ad chemicals...  it wouldnt suprise me tht they have garlic, they also have chicken feet, and cereal.


----------



## DennisS (Apr 17, 2008)

sorry to burst everyones bubble but if a crop has been grown in a certain patch for a number of years and that patch has not been replenished with all the nutrients that have been taken from the soil it is grown in then even Bok-choy and Spinich will have the same nutritional value as Iceburg Lettuce. all most farmers add to the soil is NPK they do not add micro and macro nutrients to the soil.


----------



## Kirby (Apr 17, 2008)

dennis, got some proof? research, stats?

i doubt endive, or collard would equal the nutritional value of iceberg lettuce.


----------



## Gonzo (Apr 18, 2008)

Dragon lady - ask someone to read the following questions, and then tell you which one is requesting information, and which one is insinuating something.
Isn't the "Bearded Dragon Manual" American?
Isnt the "Bearded Dragon Manual"....American?
Your punctuation, those dots before America, indicates a pause. I haven't assumed anything. I’ve just read it the way you typed it. If that isn’t how you wanted it read, then what’s with the dots?

You make a comment telling someone not to feed cos to their beardie.
This comment interests me because I do feed it to my dragons, so I ask why not?
(If someone advised another person on the forum to not feed bok choy or endive, wouldn’t you be interested in their reason and what it was based on?)
You claim it has very little or no nutritional value, compared to bok choy or endive.
I want to check this out, so I ask where your information comes from?
You don’t provide any specific information, so I do some research and present the information for you to comment on.

Your reply, “i simply do not want to debate any issue with you.....” 

I think that if people make statements on a forum such as this, they should be prepared to back them up with some specific data. Not just a vague response.

Leigh – If I collected all of the information that Veronica used to grade the foods on her list, and then gave that information to 10 extremely keen bearded dragon keepers, and asked them to rank the foods as green, black, blue, etc. Would the rankings be the same? Each person would develop their own criteria for placing the foods in each section. It’s possible that the same food item could end up with different rankings, depending on whose list you’re looking at.
How can you blindly accept Veronica’s list as your ”bible” without knowing the criteria for inclusion into each group? You might think that a food with a lower score in Ca : P should earn “green” level because of calcium supplementation, or you might demand that a higher level is necessary for “green” because you believe that natural plant calcium is better than supplements. You might decide that anything with a Ca : P of less than 1:1, should be ranked blue or lower, without exception. Add in oxalates, goitrogens, high levels of this vitamin, low levels of that mineral, etc. and the potential for differences of opinion grows. By stating that you use this list as your bible, you’re saying that you believe Veronica’s opinion is infallible.
I think you should use it as a rough guide, but do your own research, and make your own decisions based on that research. Don’t just take someone else’s opinion as gospel.

Dragon Lady - you’ve posted more since I’ve written this.

I don’t know why you keep bringing up whether my feelings are hurt?
I simply wanted to have an open discussion about the nutritional value of cos lettuce.
I posted this on the forum because it’s about sharing information. You made a comment that I didn’t agree with. I asked you to share the information that you based that decision on. I presented my information. Everyone else can then read both sides and can participate in the discussion if they like.
I don’t own a cos lettuce farm, I’m not trying to force anyone to feed cos to their beardie. There are plenty of options, and I believe everyone should do some research and make up their own mind. I believe that variety is important in a beardies diet, and cos can be part of that. For example, if you feed cos with bok choy you get a nutrient boost in 10 areas. You believe that cos has no part in a beardies diet – that’s fine. I simply presented an alternative perspective.

Aslan wrote, “I have found that a diet high in Iceberg lettuce leads to runnier stools...” Iceberg not cos. Someone writes “iceberg” you read “cos”. A lettuce is a lettuce.
To me iceburg and cos are two different plants with different nutritional compositions. One very low, one quite reasonable. One I feed to my beardies the other I don’t.

Gonzo


----------



## Miss_Croft (Apr 18, 2008)

Gonzo - Go to this site. Look at the suggested feeding - you will find Cos Lettuce is there (It just says don’t feed iceburg) 

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/pogona-vitticeps-importing.pdf

I gave a list of food that is good for your dragon (High in Ca ratio) and also items reported in wild sampling. (Dandelion greens and flowers). There is also some evidence that some harder foods is also good (Native flowers) and if absent from their diet can result in jaw issues (Research was done in conjunction with Melbourne Zoo – I have not read the paper just the summary of findings). 

Hint – Look on the internet at what to feed land tropical Tortoise and you would have a good idea what is good for your bearded dragon – the Tortoise breeders have done a lot of research over the years. (More than a bearded dragon). 

With that in mind – if feed correctly your dragons should live for well over 10 years. 

Back to the question Cos lettuce would be fine as long as it is not all you feed your bearded dragon. I would also suggest you look at both dandelion greens and Plantains (both rainbow and greater) as they are a great source of calcium, easy to source (Grow as weeds all over Australia).

The reason they put garlic into animal feed is to simulate the feeding response. I have read the labels of many pellet feeds and fond a few issues – low fiber, high protein, low animal protein, high grain content. The reason they put “chicken feet” is to increase the protein without putting meat meal into the feed (Band import into Australia, New Zealand and some other countries). 

The new generation of pellet reptile feed is much better than the rubbish on sale in Australia – just no-one imports it/wants to import it.


----------



## venus (Apr 18, 2008)

Can I ask what "plantains" are?


----------



## Kirby (Apr 18, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> Gonzo - Go to this site. Look at the suggested feeding - you will find Cos Lettuce is there (It just says don’t feed iceburg)
> 
> http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/pogona-vitticeps-importing.pdf



the woman who wrote this is canadian and it was her attempt to legally import her pet dragon when she moved here... 

ive spoken with a breeder who knew her, he actually tried to get me to get in contact with her. ....i didn't.. lol

she is an everyday keeper, not a studied nutritionalist. 

Veronica from beautiful dragons is by far the most educated keeper i have met of the time, and i trust every word. there are other keepers who of course know more about uv, adenovirus and health. all seem to be overseas. lol

but needless to say Veronica's list has more information than the GOV doc. such as Cah, protein, water content, fat etc. 


i will agree with you about pellet foods, and the good stuff no one will import... lol. i import my own products, its MUCH cheaper.. i only wish someone would import the 3x2x1.5 Exo Terra Terrariums


----------



## Miss B (Apr 18, 2008)

Importing pellet foods is next to impossible for the average keeper (http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat/buying-reptile-food-from-overseas-67299).

I use the Rep-Cal pellets on a regular basis, along with a variety of fresh greens and veges, and small amounts of fruit.

As for overseas "experts" - these are the same people recommending a daily bath for your beardie. Need I say more? Lol.


----------



## Miss_Croft (Apr 18, 2008)

plantains
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadleaf_plantain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantago_lanceolata

Sorry I got the name of one of the Plantians worng - it is Ribwort (Not rainbow)


----------



## venus (Apr 18, 2008)

Miss_Croft said:


> plantains
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadleaf_plantain
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantago_lanceolata
> 
> Sorry I got the name of one of the Plantians worng - it is Ribwort (Not rainbow)




Thankyou for the link.


----------



## StOjA (Apr 18, 2008)

excuse a newbie here ... but in the wild where does a Beardie find Bok Choi, Endive, Wom Bok, broccolli, zuchini, snow peas and the rest of it?? 

what do these reptiles eat in the wild?


----------



## Gonzo (Apr 18, 2008)

Kirby - I think your statement, "she is an everyday keeper, not a studied nutritionalist." is also applicable to Veronica. She doesn't list any nutritional or zoological training in her "About me" section. I'm sure that if she had any qualifications or specialised experience she would have mentioned it.
You say, "Veronica from beautiful dragons is by far the most educated keeper i have met of the time". What reptile specific, nutritional education has she undertaken? To me, it appears that she is just a very enthusiastic, everyday keeper, who made a website.
You have obviously done some of your own research, and if you are happy to "trust every word" then that's fine, you've made an informed decision.
Is there anything on her list, that you think deserves a different rank to the one She has given? Do you think there are any borderline decisions that could have gone either way?

Gonzo


----------



## Miss_Croft (Apr 18, 2008)

This is all I found on what bearded dragons eat in the wild.

http://www.australianreptilepark.com.au/animals.asp?catID=11&ID=82
*Diet:* Adult bearded dragons eat a great deal of vegetable matter, possibly as much as 80-90% of their total diet. Leaves, fruits, berries and flowers are all eagerly consumed. Insects make up the balance of the adult diet and the majority of the juvenile diet.

At a guess the vegetable matter would consist of grasses, leaves and flowers – I have not been able to find any more about what greens they have eaten. I did however uncover some information that meal worms should be fed occasionally as it can course issues with your dragon’s stomach. 

The reason the “Experts” on Australian Bearded dragons are from overseas is because people were keeping them over there while it was illegal to keep them in Australia.

The document I sited, as pointed out is from Veronica who is not a “counter” (What you call a naturalist) – but the author has done a fair bit for work gathering material from some recognised (and some disputed) experts. s

As pointed out previously I would feed an adult bearded dragon like a land tortoise (Even to the point of using Tortoise pellet food instead of bearded dragon food). 

Dennis you are correct – if the same type of plant is planted in the same location or the plan is bred to grow fast – it often results in reduced plant nutrition.


----------



## dragon lady (Apr 18, 2008)

ok Gonzo....

watching the diet of my & other keepers animals over a period of years....i see no benefit of the for mentioned lettuce-feeding as a STAPLE 

not having a college degree in nutrition but in experience with feeding animals

yes i paused...., again.....,& again!
& i also had a question mark after ....American"?

i have SEEN,& i capitalized this as with my own eyes seen the results of keepers feeding majority lettuce as its cheaper but has no benefit but a huge disadvantage to young beardies

i have a dragon that was fed lettuce as a staple,rarely had live food
got her when it was too late to change her condition
but can see with my eyes the terminal condition that has happened!
she is terminal,but stable at the present moment
i probably wont have her next christmas!

because of keepers that continue to think that its in their(the dragons) best interest to feed less value greens, & as a member who is allot more eloquent than i with putting things so it is understandable-without getting off topic & emotional....
said .." that how do dragons eat 70%+ greens when there is a drought?...."
that quote i find brilliantly put-probably not exactly,but almost spot on!

look Gonzo,anyone who has ever read any thread i have written will know im not the most eloquent ,i try to do my best
its not always easy to explain my thoughts,i try my best
i saw that you "quoted" my thread,scrutinized it ...
yes its free press on any member to question whatever!......that the Australian right to do so

i saw it as you were unhappy with me,so i apologized
i cant tell you the molecules of that or this vegetable or the % of fat etc
im telling you as you asked,...."what or where do you get your information from"

i told you my experience,sorry i don't have a professors degree to back me up

other than the rescues,or adults bought not in full health
all my animals are in top condition,i am proud of that

im pretty sure that if they knew i didn't have a diploma to look after them....
they would be just as happy!:lol:


----------

