# Eastern water dragons



## Daniel1985 (Apr 19, 2018)

Hi all i have aquired my first eastern water dragon. I am curious to know there growth rates. How fast do they grow any help would be greatly apreciated. Thanks


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## pinefamily (Apr 20, 2018)

Welcome to the forum.
Depends how well you feed it.


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## Daniel1985 (Apr 20, 2018)

I have a very good selection for them ranging from crickets to moths. I give them fresh shelled mealworms every couple days and the odd woodie all food is dusted with calcium. I tey to mix there feeda up as much as i can every day.


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## pinefamily (Apr 20, 2018)

Make sure you offer fruit and veg as well. If they are juveniles, they may or may not eat it, but keep offering a different selection. EWD's love a variety of fruit and veg, pretty much the same as beardies, except add capsicum as well. When we had EWD's, they loved red capsicum, as well as other fruit and veg.


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## dragonlover1 (Apr 20, 2018)

check out 1 of my favourite websites,it is for beardies but can be adapted for other species , 
http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html
And as Piney says don't give up offering fruit and veg,sometimes it takes a while for them to learn what good food is all about.
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Daniel1985 said:


> I have a very good selection for them ranging from crickets to moths. I give them fresh shelled mealworms every couple days and the odd woodie all food is dusted with calcium. I tey to mix there feeda up as much as i can every day.


you might want to slow down on the calcium a little, there is such a thing as calcium overload.It is better to offer calcium every second day with vitamins offered on alternate days


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Apr 21, 2018)

Yep, too much calcium supplements will cause gout in reptiles. They can also get hypervitaminosis D (An excess of vitamin D causes abnormally high blood concentrations of calcium, which can cause overcalcification of the bones, soft tissues, heart and kidneys.) In addition, hypertension can result. Symptoms of vitamin D toxicity may include the following: Dehydration. Vomiting. Decreased appetite.

You will also cause hypercalcemia - (excessively high blood calcium levels). This occurs with imbalances of calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D but by comparison to other reptiles this is relatively rare in snakes. 

I personally don't use ANY vitamin or calcium supplements at all. A natural varied diet and quality UVB lighting and some weekly outdoor sun time is all that's required.


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## pinefamily (Apr 21, 2018)

Try them on the pet chicken mince, available from most pet food stores. The pet chicken mince has the carcass minced in with the meat, so better for them. When they are bigger, fish, rats, and mice are other options.


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## Daniel1985 (Apr 21, 2018)

Thanks for your imput guys. I dont dust all there feedings with calcium. Do u guys think that the small ones will take the chicken i guess there is no harm in trying.


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## pinefamily (Apr 21, 2018)

They might not at first, but keep offering it, as part of their diet.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 22, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Yep, too much calcium supplements will cause gout in reptiles. They can also get hypervitaminosis D (An excess of vitamin D causes abnormally high blood concentrations of calcium, which can cause overcalcification of the bones, soft tissues, heart and kidneys.) In addition, hypertension can result. Symptoms of vitamin D toxicity may include the following: Dehydration. Vomiting. Decreased appetite.
> 
> You will also cause hypercalcemia - (excessively high blood calcium levels). This occurs with imbalances of calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D but by comparison to other reptiles this is relatively rare in snakes.
> 
> I personally don't use ANY vitamin or calcium supplements at all. A natural varied diet and quality UVB lighting and some weekly outdoor sun time is all that's required.


This is the third time I have read this spiel. It has improved but there are still some issues. Before discussing these I would make the point that cases of hypercalcaemia are seldom seen in reptiles, while metabolic bone disease (MBD) is not uncommon. So is it better to supplement and run the risk of the former or not supplement and run the risk of the latter?

The statement that “too much calcium supplements will cause gout in reptiles” is not correct. Calcium levels are basically well regulated through the effects of Calcitonin and Parathyroid hormone working in tandem. Vitamin D (and phosphate to a lesser degree) also plays a role. Under normal conditions, calcium in excess of the body’s needs is passed out in the wastes. For example the bone fragments so often present in carnivore reptile poop. The gut is capable of digesting and absorbing many of these bone fragments, but does not do so when it has sufficient calcium. Although calcium powder is more readily digested, excess of it is also passed through. 

A high level of calcium in the diet on its own is NOT what can cause hypercalcaemia. It can be caused by a number of things, such as cancer of the parathyroid or certain bone cancers and by hyperthyroidism. It can also be caused by inordinately high doses of vitamin D administered very regularly over an extended period. This basically increases intestinal absorption of calcium as well as excessive bone reabsorption by mobilizing calcium. It requires large doses over an extended period.

Do you understand how very rare hypoglycaemia is as a cause of gout, and how these two conditions can be related?

I most certainly do agree that a natural diet and quality UVB exposure is the best way to go.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Apr 22, 2018)

Sorry mate but I've seen several cases of gout in dragons and turtles simply from products like repti-cal being over used. But each to their own.

Turtles require more calcium than any other reptile and if we never use supplements for turtles, you can definitely do WITHOUT them for dragons.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 22, 2018)

Tell me, how was the general health otherwise of these animals and did any die as a result of poor health, other than their gout?


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Apr 22, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Tell me, how was the general health otherwise of these animals and did any die as a result of poor health, other than their gout?


Gout is extremely painful for reptiles and the excessive swelling in their joints renders them virtually disabled. They'd probably rather be dead.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 22, 2018)

I assume from that reply that the answer is there was no other major health issue. Gout resulting from hypercalcaemia is due to renal damage from calcification of the kidney tubules where they lose function and are unable to excrete uric acid as normal. Such calcification is not restricted to the kidneys and affects other organs such as the heart, lungs and blood vessels, etc. So this was clearly not the cause.

Getting back to your previous post, blaming one factor, the supplement, when there are several much more common causes is drawing a very long bow. I might add here that Repti-cal (by Aristopet) contains vitamin D supplement, as do nearly all the calcium supplements for reptiles on the market, which is a possible cause if used excessively and repeatedly. 

Gout is the formation of uric acid crystal in tissues of the body. These can form in synovial joints (arthritic gout) or in organs (visceral gout). Uric acid a form of nitrogenous waste produced by terrestrial reptiles. Gout in aquatic turtles is almost unheard of as they produce their nitrogenous wastes in the form of urea and ammonia, both of which are highly soluble.

With dragons (and other terrestrial reptiles), the most common cause of gout is feeding them foods with proteins that they do not come across naturally. This results in a large number of amino acids that they cannot utilise in building their own proteins. Consequently these are broken down to utilise the energy in them, resulting in an abnormally larger quantity of nitrogenous waste being produced. Where this is consistent and continuous, especially if drinking water is limited, the body cannot excrete all the uric acid produced. As the level builds up in the body fluids, it eventually begins to crystallise as a solid, lodging in the tissues i.e. producing gout.


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## dragonlover1 (Apr 22, 2018)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Sorry mate but I've seen several cases of gout in dragons and turtles simply from products like repti-cal being over used.


then you'll be glad to know that Repti-cal is no longer produced


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Apr 22, 2018)

The problem with calcium supplements, period is that they cause excessive and rapid spikes in blood calcium levels which isn't normal or beneficial for any reptile. As already mentioned, a NATURAL VARIED diet is ALL that's required along with access to quality artificial UVB and regular natural sunlight.

Never used any supplements with my turtles or frogs and they're all in tip top condition.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 24, 2018)

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on the effects of calcium supplements. Based on what I know about calcium homeostasis I can say that calcium supplements on their own, even when administered consistently and frequently far in excess of the recommended dosage, will NOT cause hypercalcaemia. It is the prolonged exorbitant use of vitamin D that is the root cause. Other factors such as vitamin A and hydration levels (which affect ability to excrete) can also contribute.

I agree that there is very likely to be a difference in the rate of uptake of most supplement forms of calcium compared to digesting bones. However, an increased rate of uptake is more likely to cause the regulatory mechanisms to kick in early and to reduce or stop the uptake and utilisation of calcium. In support of this contention, the renowned American reptile veterinarian, Dr Douglas Mader, found he achieved more effective treatment of MBD in Beared dragons with oral administration of calcium compared to injections of calcium. What this clearly indicates is that a slower uptake of calcium allows the reptile to utilise and incorporate more calcium then an equivalent dose of calcium injected directly into the body fluids. The reason is evidently that a sudden spike in the level in the body resulted in activating the mechanisms for shutting down calcium utilisation in the body. This would result in increased excretion of calcium until the levels returned to normal.

A friend who has had great success in keeping and breeding Western Bearded dragons and Frill-necked dragons, provides a small dish of ground cuttlebone for his animals. They can access it when they want and it provides all the calcium they need. As many, if not most, dragons will not drink still water from a bowl, he uses a mini-fountain (sold as ornaments by Bunnings) as a moving water supply - which they do utilise.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Apr 24, 2018)

I can agree to disagree. They're simply not necessary if you don't cut corners in the hobby. 
We do use calgrit (crushed calcium carbonate - limestone) as a substrate for aquatic turtles mixed with river sand and provide cuttlebone for turtles prior to the breeding season. Apart from this, it's a big NO for dusting with calcium and or mineral supplements. UNLESS the animal is showing signs of MBD (unlikely with proper husbandry in the first place), it's simply not necessary IMO. I think many people in the reptile hobby are just lazy when it comes to feeding and opt for the easiest simplest cost effective way of feeding as possible then try to counteract the shortfalls in the diet and husbandry by slamming their reptiles full of supplements. Then using the supplement wagon to say UVB lighting isn't necessary... a vicious circle. 

I'll personally just keep offering the natural varied diet and light and no man made "supplements."


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 24, 2018)

I agree 100% that providing required nutrients through a natural diet is the always the best way to go. However this cannot always be achieved. For example, it is often not practical to be able to provide the equivalent variety of food items to terrestrial reptiles that are invertebrate feeders, especially if you have a collection of them and you live in the suburbia and you have to work for a living. This is where dietary supplements such as calcium becomes important. Similarly with providing UVB light for vitamin D production. A quality UVB light for reptiles and amphibians requiring it is a good substitute if you are unable to supervise some regular time in natural daylight. For nocturnal reptiles such as geckoes, the periodic addition of appropriate quantities of vitamin D at can compensate for the lack of natural exposure to small quantities of UVB light.

Natural provision of an animal’s requirements is always preferable. Where it is not possible or practical to do so, then *appropriate* administration of supplements to the diet is needed to meet their needs.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Apr 25, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Natural provision of an animal’s requirements is always preferable. Where it is not possible or practical to do so, then *appropriate* administration of supplements to the diet is needed to meet their needs.


I guess this is the key point.

Thankfully I'm still motivated/dedicated enough at this point in time to cultivate/breed and grow all the necessary natural food items I require (shrimps, crayfish, earth/compost worms, silkworms, woodies, mice, aquatic plants) and then still dedicate 2 days a week to the collection and gathering of natural foods for my herps, (trapping fish and collecting aquatic insects and inverts at the local creeks). I also use one of those Gecko bug zapper lights to collect a wide variety of nocturnal insects for my frogs and turtles. Doesn't take a lot of time or know-how to gain everything you need from your immediate surroundings... If you're fortunate enough not to live in the concrete jungle of course...


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