# Breeding a Stimmy to a Spotted



## madsylar (Sep 4, 2015)

Hi, has anyone tried it? Is there any reason why we don't see many of these around? 

Cheers


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## Shotta (Sep 4, 2015)

It can/has been done, But it is frowned upon by some people.


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## madsylar (Sep 4, 2015)

Any problems doing it? I couldn't find pictures or any website about it

- - - Updated - - -

It should produce some cool morphs


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## baker (Sep 4, 2015)

They are two distinct species and breeding these together would create a hybrid which is both frowned upon and illegal in majority of Australian states. 
Don't do it, you are not going to 'create' and cool morphs or that, just a weird looking snake that will look a little like a spotted and a little like a stimson. It has been done before but this was years ago while they where all still lumped under _childreni. _

Cheers, Cameron.


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## Trewin (Sep 4, 2015)

Stupid, dont do it


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## Jason (Sep 5, 2015)

For some reason people consider it OK for carpets to be mixed and even blue tongues but still cringe when it comes to Antaresia


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## muzza72 (Sep 5, 2015)

baker said:


> They are two distinct species and breeding these together would create a hybrid which is both frowned upon and illegal in majority of Australian states.
> Don't do it, you are not going to 'create' and cool morphs or that, just a weird looking snake that will look a little like a spotted and a little like a stimson. It has been done before but this was years ago while they where all still lumped under _childreni. _
> 
> Cheers, Cameron.



I agree totally. The only good thing about having all these crossbred muts is our purebreeds will be worth more in the future. Certain species don't cross in the wild for a reason. Unfortunately some people have claimed to have bred new species of albinos but all they've done is crossed for egsample a darwin albino with a normal coast carpet and then bred the cross het offspring with another darwin albino and then they have few albino crossbreeds which they breed etc etc. So in the end you have a crossbred mongrel albino that will never breed pure. I'm just using the darwin and coastal as an egsample of what can be done. Anyway its crap so be careful what you're buying and don't believe everything you hear. You can get an amazing variety of patterns and colours be breeding the same species. Keep it pure man!


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## madsylar (Sep 14, 2015)

muzza72 said:


> I agree totally. The only good thing about having all these crossbred muts is our purebreeds will be worth more in the future. Certain species don't cross in the wild for a reason. Unfortunately some people have claimed to have bred new species of albinos but all they've done is crossed for egsample a darwin albino with a normal coast carpet and then bred the cross het offspring with another darwin albino and then they have few albino crossbreeds which they breed etc etc. So in the end you have a crossbred mongrel albino that will never breed pure. I'm just using the darwin and coastal as an egsample of what can be done. Anyway its crap so be careful what you're buying and don't believe everything you hear. You can get an amazing variety of patterns and colours be breeding the same species. Keep it pure man!



This argument is so invalid. First, the fact that there aren't hybrids in the wild "for a reason" doesn't mean much. Following the same reasoning, we don't have many pied / albino / t+ etc in the wild "for a reason" so let's not work on then. Second you haven't added anything to your idea that we should keep things "pure". If we can get some cool animals by mixing some antaresia subspecies I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do it.


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 14, 2015)

The hybridisers have already mucked up our captive gene pool with most species/subspecies, for just the reason you've put forward - YOU don't see any reason why it shouldn't be done. The reasons why it is not a good idea will no doubt never be absorbed by you, because they are subtle, and rely on a reasonably high understanding of the philosophies behind the privilege of being permitted to keep native species of any sort. If beautiful examples of "pure" species animals are not good enough for you, go for it... continue the mucking up of the already buggered captive gene pool to get your hands on "cool" animals.

By the way, what you would get would not be "morphs," they would be hybrids. A morph is a variant within a species.

Jamie


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## Herpo (Sep 14, 2015)

As long as the animals are looked after and treated with the respect they deserve, I say, Potato, Potarto.

I do know that this is a touchy subject, and for good reason I guess, so I avoid talking about it too much. I guess the reason I don't mind a snakes genes because I own an "intergrade", but I don't think it really is. He behaves like a normal snake, and I think that as long as we don't cause life threatening problems (ie with jags) it's ok.

To all purists out there, please don't take my post as an insult of as flippancy. I do appreciate pure animals, and respect them just the same.


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## BredliFreak (Sep 14, 2015)

You can breed a Stimmy to a Spotted but as many other members have stated, this is not a particularly popular action. IMO if you want to hybridise but still keep people happy and still keep the pure bloodlines there are things you can do:

Either breed it as a once-off and don't breed the hatchlings, or sell them to anyone who might like to breed, of course give them the info that it is a hybrid and that you shouldn't breed it at all costs

OR

Do whatever you want, but keep it separate from the other pure bloodlines, and tell any potential buyers to do the same. These snakes are your canvas but there is no point in mixing the Mona Lisa with Starry Night, if you know what I mean.

I hope you have success if you do breed them but follow other people's advice about bloodlines.

Regards,
Bredli


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## Herpo (Sep 14, 2015)

I agree with Bredli. There are honest sellers out the, like K bros Pythons, who breed jags and cross snakes of the morelia genus and tall potential buyers all the needed information and are quite open with their efforts.


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## Sean_L (Sep 14, 2015)

pythoninfinite said:


> The hybridisers have already mucked up our captive gene pool with most species/subspecies, for just the reason you've put forward - YOU don't see any reason why it shouldn't be done. The reasons why it is not a good idea will no doubt never be absorbed by you, because they are subtle, and rely on a reasonably high understanding of the philosophies behind the privilege of being permitted to keep native species of any sort. If beautiful examples of "pure" species animals are not good enough for you, go for it... continue the mucking up of the already buggered captive gene pool to get your hands on "cool" animals.
> 
> By the way, what you would get would not be "morphs," they would be hybrids. A morph is a variant within a species.
> 
> Jamie



Perhaps a separate license that prevents keepers from keeping both hybrids and pure animals. An either/or sort of deal. That'll sort out the people interested in the reptiles from those interested in themselves.
Would be hard to police of course.


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## madsylar (Sep 14, 2015)

pythoninfinite said:


> The hybridisers have already mucked up our captive gene pool with most species/subspecies, for just the reason you've put forward - YOU don't see any reason why it shouldn't be done. The reasons why it is not a good idea will no doubt never be absorbed by you, because they are subtle, and rely on a reasonably high understanding of the philosophies behind the privilege of being permitted to keep native species of any sort. If beautiful examples of "pure" species animals are not good enough for you, go for it... continue the mucking up of the already buggered captive gene pool to get your hands on "cool" animals.
> 
> By the way, what you would get would not be "morphs," they would be hybrids. A morph is a variant within a species.
> 
> Jamie



I'm happy to change my mind but so far I've only heard opinions and preferences, but thanks for the correction regarding morphs. If we can get some cool looking snakes through hybrids, I don't see any problems with it. Cheers


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## Pauls_Pythons (Sep 14, 2015)

You might not see a problem with it but the law in most states does. There are cases where entire clutches of hybrid animals have been euthanased.
Your career as a breeder might be short lived if you were to have a clutch removed for this reason.


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## madsylar (Sep 15, 2015)

I found laws regarding releasing hybrids in the wild, but not breeding them as pets. Are you sure? Certainly not in NSW or VIC.


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 15, 2015)

The futures of these snakes can never be controlled, given that they will live at least 15+ years and could likely pass through several pairs of hands during that time. "Policing" their management would be impossible, given that most of the progeny will be visually indistinguishable from their origin species. One of the problems with hybridising is that there will likely be only very few "special" looking snakes in a clutch, and considering the distaste that hybridising engenders in the herp community, those that do it are often secretive about their activities, so sell the unwanted progeny as something they are not. I am well aware that I'm trying to swim up a waterfall with this cross-breeding thing, but the changes in the types of people keeping reptiles when they became captive-bred commodities has not been universally good for the hobby or the reptiles concerned.

Jamie


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## Redemption (Sep 15, 2015)

Most things in life go full circle. Everyone wants the new sexy looking hybrid but eventually most people want the pure animals again. What sucks is that eventually all the hybrids will not be as valuable and most become unwanted. The worst thing is that big breeders have seen this happen here and overseas and they know what the end result is, they just don't care enough because their pockets get full. At the end of the day the animals suffer.


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 15, 2015)

I can honestly say I have NEVER wanted to own a hybrid of any sort. But I do like exceptional examples of locality/species pure animals. The local pythons up here on the mid-north coast can be very pretty, but they are cryptic and we usually only see them around the house or on the roads at night, occasionally during the day. But we do have some cracker Bell's phase Lacies around here - very pretty indeed.

I noticed someone earlier in this thread mentioned intergrades. Although this is a useful term in that it relates to snakes from the region between where Diamonds prevail in the south and the Coastal Carpets fill the python niche in the north - from around Newcastle to Coff's Harbour. The snakes from this region exhibit characteristics of both Diamonds & Carpets to varying degrees, but are NOT hybrids of the two. They are simply the animals that occupy the transition zone, and their colouring & patterns reflect the habitats in which they live. They have probably been in this habitat/region as long as both Diamonds and Coastals have occupied their own specific niches. To suggest that Intergrades result from the mixing or Coastals and Diamonds in quite incorrect.

Jamie


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## Herpo (Sep 15, 2015)

I mentioned the intergrades. My python was sold as an intergrade, but when I asked what he was crossed with, they told me jungle, MD and Coastal. So I don't think that makes him an intergrade.
[MENTION=41820]pythoninfinite[/MENTION], I agree about the lacies. We go camping up near Mudgee and some normal and Bell's phase ones inhabit the area. They once broke into our tent and ate two brioche. Good to know he likes food from my country, I guess. Very nice animals, them lacies are.


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## GBWhite (Sep 15, 2015)

And the topic raises its ugly head again!

But I find it an interesting topic to debate, so I’ll throw my thoughts into the ring.

Personally, as we are talking about herpetoculture ie: keeping and breeding pet snakes that have no research or conservation value and are not bred with the intention to be repatriated back into the wild, I don’t see any problem with it.

The genus occupies a vast distribution area and like the Morelia spilota group (and has Jamie has alluded) there are transition zones where it is impossible to identify one species (if you want to call them that) from another.

Sure some display distinct patterning but I ask the question. Other than variations in patterns, is this feature significant enough to quantify the splitting of the group in the first place?

And I’d further ask. Is colour and patterning enough to elevate what may, if anything, be just a sub- species to species level and if so why is this not adopted right across the board of Australian herps? For example look at the mass variations in the colour and patterns of Common Brown Snakes (Pseudonaja textilis), variations of colours and patterns between the Southern Blotched and Alpine Blotched Blue Tongues (Tiliqua nigrolutea), huge variation amongst Spotted Black Snakes (Pseudechis guttatus) and has been mentioned the “Bells” phase of the Lace Monitor (Varanus varius). 

Some have suggested that species of Antaresia have been confirmed at species level by mitochondrial DNA analysis. I’ve done a bit of digging around over the last couple of months and can’t find any data to confirm this however I would be happy if someone can point me in that direction if data is available.

As far as recognition of the current species (subspecies) of the Morelia sp group. It’s my understanding that it is still yet to be resolved. The problem is that the International Code Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN) is open to a wide range of interpretations by taxonomists (both amateur and professional). 

I’ve included a link to a paper by S A Ciavaghia and associates – “Species identification of protected carpet pythons suitable for degraded forensic samples” if your interested in having a read. From my understanding of the research the use of mitochondrial DNA analysis can determine the ancestry of a genus and/or species as well as the location of individual animals but as you will see in the extract I have provided of the ICZN Code, location/distribution alone is not considered sufficient to classify taxa as a separate species. To be raised to species level a taxon must be uniquely different from other taxa. So I believe it can be argued, “What level of difference in DNA analysis contributes to a unique difference?”

Having discussed the matter with a friend that is a geneticist, it appears to me that the problem that currently exists with using DNA analysis to attempt to identify/confirm species (I’m referring to reptiles in particular) is that it is subject to variations dependant on which gene bank the samples comes from, the type of sample used, who undertakes the analysis and how the analysis is undertaken. 

I’ll add that I’m not alone in my belief the validity of molecular data used to identify or validate species is somewhat questionable and should be resolved further. The phylogeny’s margin of error would drastically reduce if there were certain standards to comply with. I think this would go a long way to improving the confidence people have in the results. 

For the benefit of interested;

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ythons_suitable_for_degraded_forensic_samples

Extract

“The position of M. bredli within M. spilota and the clustering of individuals of the 
M. spilota imbricata sub-species as a separate group to the remainder of M. spilota requires some comment. Morelia bredli was recently reclassified as a separate species from M. spilota without a formal taxonomic treatment [28]. Our data suggest two possibilities for the relationship of M. bredli with M. spilota: either that M. bredli 
is not sufficiently divergent to be a separate species, or that M. spilota actually comprises several species, among which two would be M. bredli and M. s. imbricata. Resolution of these issues will require extensive morphological analysis and likely nuclear gene data, neither of which is trivial for this widespread group of pythons. As an interim we hereafter use ‘‘M. spilota complex’’ to refer to M. spilota, M. bredli, and M. s. imbricata in lieu of future taxonomic resolution of the complex”. 

Interpretation and application of the ICZN Code


The Code rules on issues regarding nomenclatural acts and works, and aims to “provide the maximum universality and continuity in the scientific names of animals compatible with the freedom of scientists to classify animals according to taxonomic judgments”. *Due to its universality, the wording of the Code leaves considerable room for interpretation.* 
[h=4]APPLICATION 1.[/h]“Characters”: *To be available a name must “be accompanied by a description or definition that states in words characters that are purported to differentiate the taxon”*. A description in the meaning of the Code is “a statement in words of taxonomic characters of a specimen or a taxon”, and a definition is “a statement in words that purports to give those characters which, in combination uniquely distinguish a taxon”. The *glossary defines the word taxon as a* “taxonomic unit, whether named or not: i.e., a population, or group of populations of organisms which are usually inferred to be phylogenetically related and which have characters in common which differentiate the unit (e.g., a geographic population, a genus, a family, an order) from other such units”. This latter statement *clearly excludes distribution itself as a character to differentiate taxa and that complies with article 13.1.1, since it requires characters to differentiate a “geographic population” from other such units.* *Many taxonomists are likely to accept a geographic population, especially an insular population, only separated from other such populations by distribution, at subspecific rank. However, the Code does not distinguish between specific and subspecific rank in its requirements* (Arts. 45.1, 45.2), and therefore *subspecies must also be distinguishable by characters other than by their isolated locality or distribution.*
[h=4]APPLICATION 2.[/h]*“Generalized statements”: Generalized statements such as “separated by distribution” or “separated by analysis of DNA” or relative statements such as “usually (but not always) has” do not constitute a character in the sense of article 13.1.1* (APP1). Analysis of DNA clearly describes a method although genomic differences are of diagnostic value, and distribution itself is not a character, as it is not intrinsic to any specimen within the taxon. Therefore, these are not attributes of an organism (see glossary for character). *Moreover, strictly following the glossary definition of the word description, the Code would require that a taxon must be uniquely distinguished from other taxa and generalized statements do not imply uniqueness.*

Regards,

George.


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## madsylar (Sep 16, 2015)

Going back to the laws, does anyone know for a fact if it's prohibited or not in NSW or VIC? Again I could only find vague text about releasing hybrids in the wild, but it's not like we'll ever release any snake in the wild on purpose anyway.


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## ronhalling (Sep 16, 2015)

Hey there madsylar, does the statement


> but it's not like we'll ever release any snake in the wild on purpose anyway.


 mean you personally or does it pertain to everyone in the hobby, if it means everyone you might be surprised by how many people actually do let their snakes go in the wild thinking among other things that they are helping to re-establish snakes in their area, the other reason they do it is the hybrids they have created do not sell and they can't bring themselves to euthanise them. This is a major concern to most serious breeders in the hobby and it needs to be controlled so the market does not become flooded with mongrels, most people have a conscience and will tell prospective buyers that the snake they are buying is a hybrid, but it is the minority that causes the problem and when bred to these mongrels just biget more mongrels. I really hate this subject so will finish here before i really get a ramble on lol.  .....................Ron


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## madsylar (Sep 17, 2015)

I might be wrong, I often am, but so far I couldn't see any compelling argument against hybrid antaresia. The fact that they're "unnatural" can also be applied to pied and albino "pure" morphs. Same to the argument of "there's a reason they're not found in the wild".


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 17, 2015)

Your comment about morphs simply shows that you still don't understand what a morph is, or don't want to be put off doing what you clearly want to, and probably will, do. Colour forms of pure species (and I won't go down the Carpet thing, George is probably right...) are TOTALLY different to hybrids between species. Morphs, including albino and unpatterned animals, of pure species occur in the wild, and are usually unsuccessful if they are conspicuous, as albinos and probably pied animals are. The surviving and successful animals are those which can live their lives discreetly and avoid predation. If you've been around long enough, you will know that the original albino Carpet bred by Simon Stone so successfully was caught as a juvenile wild snake in Darwin. If it wasn't taken into captivity and raised in safety, it would almost certainly have been eaten or killed before it reached maturity. But it was a perfectly "natural" animal apart from its lack of colour. To any of those who support hybridisation, it would be very useful if they spent some time researching the natural history of these fantastic creatures before they roll the wrecking ball a bit further down the track towards the commodification of our natural heritage.

Jamie


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## madsylar (Sep 18, 2015)

The fact that the offspring can survive in the wild is of absolutely no relevance. Now if they are not healthy, then perhaps yes but I've seen many problems with albino spotted and they are "pure". I'm not trying to run a zoo or "save the species", as far as I'm concerned this is hobby and so far i've read nothing that would encourage someone not to try get cool looking snakes (it it better than morphs?) by cross breeding antaresia.


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 18, 2015)

As long as it's "cool looking," then I guess it's OK...

Jamie


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## PythonLegs (Sep 18, 2015)

madsylar said:


> The fact that the offspring can survive in the wild is of absolutely no relevance. Now if they are not healthy, then perhaps yes but I've seen many problems with albino spotted and they are "pure". I'm not trying to run a zoo or "save the species", as far as I'm concerned this is hobby and so far i've read nothing that would encourage someone not to try get cool looking snakes (it it better than morphs?) by cross breeding antaresia.



You won't get 'cool looking' morphs, you'll end up with ordinary looking anteresia species that will be harder to sell because they're hybrids. Unless you're culling, a lot. Or lying about their parentage..but surely nobody would do anything so douchey on here, now would they?


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## madsylar (Sep 18, 2015)

PythonLegs said:


> You won't get 'cool looking' morphs, you'll end up with ordinary looking anteresia species that will be harder to sell because they're hybrids. Unless you're culling, a lot. Or lying about their parentage..but surely nobody would do anything so douchey on here, now would they?



I would have no problems buying a hybrid from another breeder and not everything is in the hobby for profits.


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## Smurf (Sep 21, 2015)

I am curious what kind of 'cool' you are expecting to produce? There are so many variations within the natural patterning of both stimsoni and maculosa that I would bet if you spent a while looking at them, you would find that pattern python you want to make you happy. 
I have a wheatbelt stimmie who has mostly dark covering her first third with only spots of the light background colour, opposite to the regular.
With so much variety already available why would someone feel the need to cross breed what is currently two separate species? If perhaps you just happen to have one of each and now want to breed, perhaps you could try advertising for swaps to end up with two stimmies or spotteds?
Just my two cents


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## PythonLegs (Sep 22, 2015)

madsylar said:


> I would have no problems buying a hybrid from another breeder and not everything is in the hobby for profits.


So..not good looking.
Not unusual.
Not profitable.
Why, then?


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## madsylar (Sep 22, 2015)

how do you know they wont be unusual? a platinum mac with a wheatbelt stimmy for example.


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## baker (Sep 22, 2015)

madsylar said:


> how do you know they wont be unusual? a platinum mac with a wheatbelt stimmy for example.


How do you know that they will be? 
The best you will get is some muddy looking snake that is a mix of the two. 

If you want to great the new "super morph" you are better off buying a couple different spotted pythons morphs and mixing them. You have a much higher chance of getting unusual and good looking snakes from that, rather than crossing two different species. Plus they will be worth more by not being hybrids. You also don't have to worry about breaking your license rules resulting in you getting a fine and them being seized and destroyed. 
It is a unanimously bad idea from everyone other than you who has commented. Take the hint and leave this idea. The only name you will make for yourself doing this is a bad one. Once you get that bad name it is quite hard to become respected again. 

Cheers, Cameron


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## eipper (Sep 22, 2015)

It is illegal in Victoria under the wildlife act.


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## madsylar (Sep 22, 2015)

Lol no. Yes, it's an unanimously bad idea but so far without much facts to back it up. 
"The best you will get is some muddy looking snake that is a mix of the two. " ==> your evidence for that is? 
"You have a much higher chance of getting unusual and good looking snakes from that, rather than crossing two different species." ==> your evidence for that too? 
"worry about breaking your license rules resulting in you getting a fine and them being seized and destroyed." ==> I haven't found anything supporting this statement in NSW or VIC. I'll ignore this too until I can read evidence that one would be breaking the law. 
"The only name you will make for yourself doing this is a bad one. " ==> Lol, this isn't my career, I don't care much for my reputation in an online forum. 

I appreciate your input though, however opinions won't change my mind. 

Cheers


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## BredliFreak (Sep 22, 2015)

madsylar said:


> Lol no. Yes, it's an unanimously bad idea but so far without much facts to back it up.
> "The best you will get is some muddy looking snake that is a mix of the two. " ==> your evidence for that is? Your evidence that it won't? How will you know that a platinum mac will transfer onto a stimmie. If it isn't to your liking, what would you do with it? Let it muddle the genes like the morelia madness that we are currently in?
> "You have a much higher chance of getting unusual and good looking snakes from that, rather than crossing two different species." ==> your evidence for that too? Check out Peter Birch's animals or @Jason's, they are stunning and no hybrid in the world could look better than that (unless YOU give us evidence lol)
> "worry about breaking your license rules resulting in you getting a fine and them being seized and destroyed." ==> I haven't found anything supporting this statement
> ...



Replies are in red. I'm not hating, just giving some advice. I own a hybrid but I am saying it how less tolerant people would. If you saw my other post, I would just leave it at a one-off, a test, and then keep it as a pet.

Regards,
BredliFreak


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## PythonLegs (Sep 22, 2015)

madsylar said:


> I appreciate your input though, however opinions won't change my mind.
> 
> Cheers



Then why start the thread?


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## madsylar (Sep 22, 2015)

PythonLegs said:


> Then why start the thread?



Hoping for facts? If the consensus in negative then there should be plenty of evidence to back it up. I'm happy to change my mind

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eipper said:


> It is illegal in Victoria under the wildlife act.



I searched part VII (all offences) and I couldn't read anything that suggest it's illegal. 
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/wa197593/

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BredliFreak said:


> _How will you know that a platinum mac will transfer onto a stimmie._



That is exactly my point. I don't know. What if it did? 



BredliFreak said:


> _Are you looking for validation, are you stubborn or are you trying to annoy us? _



I thought this had been done before, maybe I could see some pictures. Or I thought there were very good reasons not to, like they're infertile for example.

- - - Updated - - -

I will just leave this here, I'm sure it'll upset a lot of you guys. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4XUOqV-SI


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## cement (Sep 22, 2015)

heres is another thought, its my opinion so don't take offence, i genuinely have a slightly different veiw of the world to most people anyway so bear that in mind. 
If the experts in DNA, genetics and taxonomy can't make heads or tails, or agree on the moreila complex and it's nomenclature, then doesn't that say something for just how unique and cryptic these animals are? After all, humans are so good at working everything out, yet here is an animal millions of years worth of evolution (how long have humans been around?)
and the best of the best can't decide on wether to split them or lump them. 
Its a simple animal too, right? reptilian brain, docile, acts without thought only using instinctual behaviour to get by.......... The fact that snakes are the most adaptable creatures on the planet (ie, found in more different types of ecosystems and environments then anything else) to my way of thinking deserves more respect. The fact that humans want to cross this with that just because we can (once again, to me) is disrepectful. And shows a lack of intuition and removal from ourselves from the natural state.
Weird though how many people beleive that by keeping or learning about snakes, that somehow they are closer to nature. But then the drawcard of making money takes over. For example, the purposeful breeding of retarded mutants has become so common now that some people don't know the difference. Newbies, who for very different reasons to old time herpers, will get one as a first snake, and the funny part is that some of these people have never even seen a snake in the wild. Not that that is an issue, or wrong but fair dinkum... this "hobby" at times is very strange. So much value heaped on breeding rearded animals??***??
As a reptile relocator, I have pulled just about every subspecies of python out of the wild here on the central coast of NSW. BHP's, Bredli, Inland, Proserpine,jungles, too many coastals to remember, plus multiple that I just have no idea what the hell they are descendants of.... and we only have one endemic subspecies (yes I am a splitter) here, diamonds. Not too mention the corns, and boas I know are out there.
I have heard it a thousand times - these are pets, hobby animals, never to be released into the wild.... well i'm telling ya, they DO get out into the wild. And yes I have heard it a thousand times, "they won't survive out of their area of origin," Bull#@$%!! Snakes are the most adaptable creature on the planet. I have pulled coastals breeding with diamonds out of roofs,(doesn't make an intergrade), I know of another coastal that was caught and returned to its original owner proven by photographs that it was the same snake, and it was missing (in the wild) for 6 years!
Considering that IBD and OPMV/sunshine, and probably even snake mite came in because some people just HAD TO HAVE one of those snakes, and considering that the taxon for snakes is in very infant years, just how important is it that we have to hybridise, especially if there is a chance that the act of hybridising may cause problems?

No-one can stop you from breeding whatever you want, but you will find people try to educate you... at least to the point where somewhere a cog might slowly turn, a light may come on, however dim, and a thought may be born. It'll probably be thrown in the freezer though........


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## BredliFreak (Sep 23, 2015)

cement said:


> retarded mutants



Why is this term necessary? First off they are not mutants, unless chance happens they do mutate but hybrids and mutants are two separate things. Also, why is it retarded? Plenty of hybrids have no issues at all, in fact, they can serve as good beginner snakes (e.g breeding a typically placid breed with another e.g a Bredli with a Darwin or something). I agree with a lot of your post but people need to get off the Hybrid-bashing bandwagon. I either find an extreme left-wing hybrid guy, who often doesn't have all the facts OR an extreme right wing guy, who thinks that they are pure evil (ironic for snake lovers, hey). What we need is more neutral people, who are smart and can find solutions to human stupidity. As you said, they are PETS. We love our pets no matter what they are or where they come from, warts and all. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what our pet is. However, we do need to educate the idiots who release their pets or let their pets escape. I believe there is nothing wrong with what this person is doing as long as they manage it correctly. I will avoid fuelling the fire any more than it needs to so I will end this rant.

Regards,
Bredli


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## cement (Sep 23, 2015)

I am referring to jags and hybrids that are infertile.
Retarded def = a mental, Physical, or emotional problem usually associated with a genetic disorder.... to slow down, or to be less advanced.
Mutant def =A sudden structural change within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.

I am sorry if you find the term offensive, but it describes the result of breeding the jag genetics or hybrids.
No-one is bashing the animal, anyone with slight intelligence can recognise that the animal is not at fault for the way it turns out. I am simply stating how strange it is to put such a high value on these animals.

Neutral people who are smart and can find solutions to human studipity? Good luck with that pipedream!

There has to be a reason why these animals are not found occurring naturally, and I will add, that the ONLY reason they are bred or produced in captivity is in the hope that they will be a source of income, or notoriety. The reduced pattern of the jag is easily matched and beaten in pure healthy stock these days, it just takes a bit longer to acquire. People have been working for years to produce this look and it is now coming to the fore without the side effects. One major contributor to why the herp community was divided, was the fact that people smuggled into the country with no regard to Aus biosecurity, a flawed gene so that they could corner the market in RP animals, cutting the grass of dedicated people who have been working for years on solid, healthy lines.
Think what you like, we all have that right, but don't leave out the facts or the truth. I don't personally make a living off breeding snakes, I occasional breed some and sell surplus stuff at very cheap prices, so I have no real agenda except that I do care for our native wild population, and what I find out there. The reason I have this in mind is because I am totally aware of EXACTLY the role these very important animals play in our ecosystem, with out a balanced ecosystem there is no us.


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## madsylar (Sep 23, 2015)

cement said:


> the purposeful breeding of retarded mutants



why would they be retarded mutants? Breeding a boa to ball python is way different than breeding Antaresia x with Antaresia y.

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BredliFreak said:


> Why is this term necessary? First off they are not mutants, unless chance happens they do mutate but hybrids and mutants are two separate things. Also, why is it retarded? Plenty of hybrids have no issues at all, in fact, they can serve as good beginner snakes (e.g breeding a typically placid breed with another e.g a Bredli with a Darwin or something). I agree with a lot of your post but people need to get off the Hybrid-bashing bandwagon. I either find an extreme left-wing hybrid guy, who often doesn't have all the facts OR an extreme right wing guy, who thinks that they are pure evil (ironic for snake lovers, hey). What we need is more neutral people, who are smart and can find solutions to human stupidity. As you said, they are PETS. We love our pets no matter what they are or where they come from, warts and all. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what our pet is. However, we do need to educate the idiots who release their pets or let their pets escape. I believe there is nothing wrong with what this person is doing as long as they manage it correctly. I will avoid fuelling the fire any more than it needs to so I will end this rant.
> 
> Regards,
> Bredli



this ^^


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 23, 2015)

Madsylar is clearly committed to this path, and was clearly committed to it before starting the thread. Sorry that you didn't get the support you were obviously looking for buddy, but that's life. The word pariah comes to mind, but I'm sure it's of no consequence to you...

Jamie


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## GBWhite (Sep 23, 2015)

Madsylar

Mate, I'm not going to say do it or don't do it because personally I don't care, it's totally up to you. You're asking for evidence against your proposal and it seems to me that all you’re getting is hearsay and assumption.

Personally from the evidence I have obtained and through personal knowledge I don’t know why people are getting their knickers in a knot.

So, I’m not trying to upset anyone and as much as this might not be accepted by some, the truth is that despite what people are trying to tell you, anyone who has been out and about and collected these guys or had the opportunity to personally examine specimens from the transition zones (as confirmed in the map contained in the attached paper by LA Smith) will tell you that, for want of a better term, they do "hybridize" naturally. 

So breeding them together (as occurs in the transition zones) isn't going to have an effect on their genetics other than the colours and patterns that will be produced.

I said it before and I'll say it again, it appears pretty apparent to me that other than variations in colour and patterns they are all basically the same snake. I've attached a link to LA Smith's 1985 Revision of the Species Liasis (now Antaresia) _childreni_ Species Group for you (or anyone else interested) to have a read and come to their own conclusion. 

If anyone wants to examine main method used to identify each as separate species they will discover it relies on the calculation regarding the mean number of various scales of each individual specimen of childreni, stimsoni and maculosa examined, but realistically if you look at the manner in which the mean number has been calculated you'll see there is no real difference. 

Then look at the number of time the word "usual" is used throughout the paper. Then consider the abstract of the ICZN Application 2 that I included in my original post, where it states *“usually (but not always) has” do not constitute a character in the sense of article 13.1.1" and " Moreover, strictly following the glossary definition of the word description, the Code would require that a taxon must be uniquely distinguished from other taxa and generalized statements do not imply uniqueness".*

His descriptions include variations of patterns within each species and even provides black and white photos as examples in some situations. So considering such variation within each “species” has been identified, does this make each species unique?

(Basically I consider it to be a piece of taxonomic garbage and is a good example of what taxonomists can get away with...but that's only my opinion)

http://museum.wa.gov.au/sites/defau...ILDRENI SPECIES-GROUP (SERPENTES BOIDAE) .pdf.

Cement,

I hear you buddy and can genuinely sympathise with your concerns but unfortunately that’s the nature of the human beast. Some of us want to play god and there are the others that want everything labelled and tagged and other simply don’t give a rat’s backside.

Back to purchasing snakes of dubious origin. All I can say is that, as John Weigel has alluded, the hobby has progressed into an industry with all the bells and whistles attached, so if people want to purchase animals with the intention to breed specific species then they should go out of their way to ensure they are obtaining the animals unique to their endeavour.

Serious collectors should know better than to purchase animals of dubious origin.

From what I see of the whole situation is that other than the odd idiot who has no idea and who enters the hobby/industry thinking they are going to purchase stock with the intention to make a profit or for no other intention than to attempt to gain notoriety, most newcomers are quite content to purchase a good healthy critter, without concern for it’s lineage because they want to own a snake. They become attached to the animal and even if they discover it might not be what they were originally informed, find it difficult to part with it just because of this.

George.


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## madsylar (Sep 23, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Madsylar
> Mate, I'm not going to say do it or don't do it because personally I don't care, it's totally up to you. You're asking for evidence against your proposal and it seems to me that all you’re getting is hearsay and assumption.
> Personally from the evidence I have obtained and through personal knowledge I don’t know why people are getting their knickers in a knot.



Thanks for your contribution mate


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## eipper (Sep 23, 2015)

George,

There is mitochondrial DNA sequencing showing Australian Python phylogeny in the lastest paper by barker and co, Reynolds et al and Rawlings and Donnelan 2008


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## cement (Sep 24, 2015)

Gday George, 

Yes I know, that is the reality of it. And why I bother posting my experiences of what I pick up out there, because years ago when jags came in and there was amad rush to cross and mix everything, we were being told on this very forum by these guys, that if these animals ever got into the wild it wouldn't matter, they would die off etc.

While reading that paper it remined me of a stimsoni I removed from a house at Nth Avoca. In great health, and the owners ssaid that a neighbour removed the same snake two years ago and took it across the road and let it go in the bush. For an animal that is predominantly a desert dweller, it seemed to be doing very well for itself in the forest of Nth Avoca and surrounds, which also would be close to the extreme southern point of its distribution as well. Die off ?....... maybe in theory. 
Also, the word hybrid has been mis-used in this thread, stimson x mac is not hybridising.
cheers


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## Sdaji (Sep 24, 2015)

It's funny to see people getting angry and borderline abusive about someone here asking the question, after just popping over from Facebook and seeing a bredli x Coastal Carpet advertised by a well known and respected breeder for $250 (not that I'm judgemental, I'm just very surprised).

I'm not really a fan of hybrids, but I'm not a fanatic either, and like it or not, opposing the hybridisers is an unwinnable battle. I'm also a fan of liberty, even when I dislike what other people want to do, as long as no one is being hurt.

A couple of 2c coins from me:

Calling stimsoni and childreni different species is plain silly, and arguably you could include maculosa with them. Gene flow does not naturally take any notice of the line drawn between stimsoni and childreni on the distribution maps.

cement: Whether you call them species, subspecies or locality variants, crossing a stimsoni and a mac is absolutely an example of hybridising. A very common misconception is that the term "hybrid" only applies when you cross two different species (most people think Stimson's and macs are different species anyway), but crossing any two animals which are different in any way is a type of hybridisation (feel free to look this up in a biological dictionary, or even any dictionary at all including an online one will do). You don't need to cross to different species or taxa to create hybrids.

Legal and cliquey reasons aside, creating hybrids is really no better or worse than creating lines of snakes with mutations nature would weed out without our intervention. Either way we are creating genetically unnatural animals which are not suited to a natural environment. Having said that, for whatever stupid sentimental reason, I have a soft spot for keeping lines pure. Don't ask me why because I can't give a good reason, and without being able to give a good reason I can't find a leg to stand on if I want to tell other people what to do, so I don't.

mtDNA usually correlates with species differences, but it doesn't have to and doesn't always. That doesn't always stop geneticists from acting like a study based on a limited survey of exclusively mtDNA conclusively proves species differences, or other phylogenetic determinations.

My final 2c offering is to suggest against crossing a stimmy and a mac. I'm not going to claim it's immoral or unethical, and it's very unlikely to cause any legal headache for you (though it might), but it's also extremely unlikely to produce offspring as good as either parent. Then again, if mudblood jaguar siblings are selling for $100-200+, what do I know?


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## Wokka (Sep 24, 2015)

My observation of progeny from mating various snakes, is that the majority of the outcome is luck and unpredictable particularly with regard to "pretty" appearances. Most clutches seem to contain a range of appearances (normally from the same mating) often from beautiful to ugly, bearing in mind that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. In the old days it was easier to get locality specific anteresia as many of the snakes kept were "closer" to the wild than they are today, due to the scarcity and higher prices justifying collection. Today the locality of anteresia is generally passed on by word of mouth from the previous breeder and in most cases the parents have been selected from the "best" (whatever that means) individuals from a clutch. Captive locality species often don't resemble *average* wild specimens found in that locality.To me snake names are descriptive rather than genetic. There are scientific ways of coming up with a best guess of how to classify a snake, by counting scales and so on, but I am not sure that that matters to the captive breeding hobby of today!


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## cement (Sep 24, 2015)

[h=1]Hybrid[/h]*Definition*
_noun, plural form: hybrids_
(general) Any of mixed origin or composition, or the combination of two or more different things.
(biology) An offspring resulting from the cross between parents of different species or sub-species.
(molecular biology) A complex formed by joining two complementary strands of nucleic acids.
_adjective_
Of or pertaining to the offspring produced from crossbreeding.
Sdaji, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out. I was under the impression that intraspecific hybrids weren't actually hybrids, 

For Bredli freak as well.


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## Waterrat (Sep 24, 2015)

Right, wrong, legal illegal, ..... anyone wanting to cross species, subspecies, morphs (in the true sense of the word) or whatever, should have a reason for doing so. To cross stimmy with mac just because it hasn't been done before or to satisfy one's curiosity doesn't sound like a good reason - if that is Mudsylar's intention.


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## Gaboon (Sep 24, 2015)

if your against hybrids then your a racist person. Two willing should be able to reproduce with out being judged.


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 24, 2015)

Gaboon said:


> if your against hybrids then your a racist person. Two willing should be able to reproduce with out being judged.



Bizarre...

J


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## madsylar (Sep 24, 2015)

- - - Updated - - -



Sdaji said:


> It's funny to see people getting angry and borderline abusive about someone here asking the question, after just popping over from Facebook and seeing a bredli x Coastal Carpet advertised by a well known and respected breeder for $250 (not that I'm judgemental, I'm just very surprised).
> 
> I'm not really a fan of hybrids, but I'm not a fanatic either, and like it or not, opposing the hybridisers is an unwinnable battle. I'm also a fan of liberty, even when I dislike what other people want to do, as long as no one is being hurt.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply

- - - Updated - - -



Waterrat said:


> Right, wrong, legal illegal, ..... anyone wanting to cross species, subspecies, morphs (in the true sense of the word) or whatever, should have a reason for doing so. To cross stimmy with mac just because it hasn't been done before or to satisfy one's curiosity doesn't sound like a good reason - if that is Mudsylar's intention.



I disagree. The simple reason "to see what would happen" it's a perfectly valid one imho. Worse case scenario all babies all die or are deformed, most likely scenario some dull babies are born (it's still VERY ok, it's not like very single "pure" offspring is stunning), but if maybe we get some cool looking animals.


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## GBWhite (Sep 24, 2015)

eipper said:


> George,
> 
> There is mitochondrial DNA sequencing showing Australian Python phylogeny in the lastest paper by barker and co, Reynolds et al and Rawlings and Donnelan 2008



Yeah thanks Scott. I read Barker & co and Rawlings and Donelan 2008 as well as a hell of a lot of other papers when I was digging around.

What i did note in Barker's paper was that he states, "We recognise that pythonoid gene trees struggle to reveal the true species tree"

Cheers,

George


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## Redemption (Sep 24, 2015)

What does everyone think of the hybrid Hypo Northern x Hypermelanistic Eastern blueys that are being bred on mass?


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## GBWhite (Sep 24, 2015)

Redemption said:


> What does everyone think of the hybrid Hypo Northern x Hypermelanistic Eastern blueys that are being bred on mass?



You could probably ask the same question about Indonesian, New guinea and Aussie Green Pythons.


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## Redemption (Sep 24, 2015)

From what I have seen over the years, Everyone wanted a green tree python and didnt care what the mix was, as the years went by, the mixes weren't as interesting and valuable. Now most people want the pure Green tree pythons and not the mixes. Pure Aussie Green Tree Pythons still go for a decent price even after all these years. I can only imagine what would have happened to the unwanted mutt mixes of reptiles that are no longer as valuable.


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## Waterrat (Sep 24, 2015)

Redemption said:


> From what I have seen over the years, Everyone wanted a green tree python and didnt care what the mix was, as the years went by, the mixes weren't as interesting and valuable. Now most people want the pure Green tree pythons and not the mixes. Pure Aussie Green Tree Pythons still go for a decent price even after all these years. I can only imagine what would have happened to the unwanted mutt mixes of reptiles that are no longer as valuable.



Mate, the demand for Aussie native GTPs has drop so much that I don't breed them any more. As I can see it, there are two types of buyers - "as long it's cheap and green" and "I want what no one else has (cheap too)" ... oh, and red babies are in great demand, even if most of them grow up into pretty ordinary greens. Another unfortunate event that happened on many occasions is, breeders out-crossed Aussie natives with exotic GTPs and sold the progeny as natives or the buyers declared them as natives. It's a muddy water there.


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## cement (Sep 24, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> What i did note in Barker's paper was that he states, "We recognise that pythonoid gene trees struggle to reveal the true species tree"
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> George



For my own understanding George, does this comment from the authors mean that there are two lineage 'pathways' when it comes to describing a species?
I can understand species tree, well I think I can......
but gene tree? Is this new because of the ability to use DNA?

cheers


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## Redemption (Sep 24, 2015)

Waterrat said:


> Mate, the demand for Aussie native GTPs has drop so much that I don't breed them any more. As I can see it, there are two types of buyers - "as long it's cheap and green" and "I want what no one else has (cheap too)" ... oh, and red babies are in great demand, even if most of them grow up into pretty ordinary greens. Another unfortunate event that happened on many occasions is, breeders out-crossed Aussie natives with exotic GTPs and sold the progeny as natives or the buyers declared them as natives. It's a muddy water there.



The demand for GTPs may have gone down due to people wanting the next best shiny reptile, but if the craze went back to GTPs, the pure stuff would be in hot demand. I remember years ago when GTPs were the "Thing" and everyone wanted them, it didn't matter what type. Then after a while when people realised alot of the GTPs were mixed, people wanted the pure stuff and for years you were the man because everyone knew they could rely on you for the pure Aussies.


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## eipper (Sep 24, 2015)

section 46 of the wildlife regulations 2013, pg 31 is clear - and I quote-

"46 Inter-breeding of wildlife
(1) A person must not, without the prior writtenapproval of the Secretary—
(a) permit different taxa of wildlife to interbreedunless those taxa of wildlife are knownto inter-breed in the wild;
(b) permit taxa of wildlife to inter-breed withanother taxa of animal that is not wildlife;ExampleA dingo may not be bred with a dog (Canis lupisfamiliaris) or dingo-dog hybrid.
(c) sell or dispose of cross-breeds of wildlifeunless those cross-breeds are known to occurin the wild.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(2) Subregulation 
(1) does not apply to a person whointer-breeds the taxa of wildlife listed in Parts Aand C of Schedule 5 with other taxa of wildlifelisted in Parts A and C of Schedule 5 and whosells or disposes of the resultant cross-breeds."

But I am sure now you will tell me that does not apply as its not what you want to hear.

Cheers,
Scott


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## Ramsayi (Sep 24, 2015)

nm


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## twistedFrog (Sep 24, 2015)

eipper said:


> But I am sure now you will tell me that does not apply as its not what you want to hear.



Now I really am having a good chuckle on this thread


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## Waterrat (Sep 24, 2015)

Scott, in that case, crossing stimmy with mac is OK according to (1)(a). They are know to inter-breed in the wild in areas where their distribution ranges overlap. Having said that, I still don't understand why would anyone want to do that.


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## GBWhite (Sep 24, 2015)

cement said:


> For my own understanding George, does this comment from the authors mean that there are two lineage 'pathways' when it comes to describing a species?
> I can understand species tree, well I think I can......
> but gene tree? Is this new because of the ability to use DNA?
> 
> cheers



Hi Cement,

It's my understanding the gene tree was established for the purpose of using DNA to track the history of a particular characteristic but does not contribute to clarify a species tree.

Cheers.


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## cement (Sep 24, 2015)

Thanks George,

another question if you don't mind, say as an example.... scientists can use DNA along a gene tree to establish something like the evolution of heat sensing pits, but can't use it to establish species because of more obvious characteristics, say between aspiditis and morelia?


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## hulloosenator (Sep 24, 2015)

Wokka said:


> My observation of progeny from mating various snakes, is that the majority of the outcome is luck and unpredictable particularly with regard to "pretty" appearances. Most clutches seem to contain a range of appearances (normally from the same mating) often from beautiful to ugly, bearing in mind that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. In the old days it was easier to get locality specific anteresia as many of the snakes kept were "closer" to the wild than they are today, due to the scarcity and higher prices justifying collection. Today the locality of anteresia is generally passed on by word of mouth from the previous breeder and in most cases the parents have been selected from the "best" (whatever that means) individuals from a clutch. Captive locality species often don't resemble *average* wild specimens found in that locality.To me snake names are descriptive rather than genetic. There are scientific ways of coming up with a best guess of how to classify a snake, by counting scales and so on, but I am not sure that that matters to the captive breeding hobby of today!





I think you hit the nail on the head there Wokka . The so called purists try to breed the best looking snakes from the best of the best and so on ..... thus giving a misleading representation of a species in captivity.
And also ..... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Exactly !
I say .... have a go and breed whatever you like as there are and will always be people interested in crosshybridmorphs . 
Its those who hate it seem to arc up the most on here , whereas those all for it seem to keep to themselves and dont promote it .... on here, anyhow


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## eipper (Sep 24, 2015)

Hi Michael,

While I agree it's probably likely, I cannot recall any published hybridization zone between those two species. Knowing the way the wildlife dept in Vic work I bet would not recognize it, but at the same time would not know what they were looking at anyway.

cheers
scott


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## arevenant (Sep 24, 2015)

Damnit!


... I've run out of popcorn...


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## cement (Sep 24, 2015)

hulloosenator said:


> thus giving a misleading representation of a species in captivity.
> 
> What can a "purist" breed that doesn't or is even unlikely to occur already? If your talking about breeding for a rare trait, fair enough, but how is that misleading?


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## Redemption (Sep 24, 2015)

hulloosenator said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head there Wokka . The so called purists try to breed the best looking snakes from the best of the best and so on ..... thus giving a misleading representation of a species in captivity.
> And also ..... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Exactly !
> I say .... have a go and breed whatever you like as there are and will always be people interested in crosshybridmorphs .
> Its those who hate it seem to arc up the most on here , whereas those all for it seem to keep to themselves and dont promote it .... on here, anyhow




I'm sure for many others and Myself, the problem with producing hybrids is not because we sip from a glass holding our pinkies in the air only delving in the pure things in life lol, Its more the fact of, what happens to the mutts when the craze of these mixes is over and everyone wants the pure reptiles again. Thats the problem, not so much what the animals look like. The fact that people see money and ignore the long term problems is what upsets most people. The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.


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## Newhere (Sep 25, 2015)

I think it's more about keeping it real for the people that just want to keep a native animal that they would never get a chance to observe to such an extent in the wild. I nearly brought a jag sib as my first snake falsely advertised as a jungle and that would of been pretty disappointing for me. 

I know that people keep animals for all different kinds of reasons and their motivation for keeping will reflect their view on the matter but it's pretty selfish not to consider the effects your actions may have on others in the future.


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## Wokka (Sep 25, 2015)

Redemption said:


> I'm sure for many others and Myself, the problem with producing hybrids is not because we sip from a glass holding our pinkies in the air only delving in the pure things in life lol, Its more the fact of, what happens to the mutts when the craze of these mixes is over and everyone wants the pure reptiles again. Thats the problem, not so much what the animals look like. The fact that people see money and ignore the long term problems is what upsets most people. The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.


I doubt that there are more abandoned mutt pets than there are purebred pets, particularly with regard to reptiles. There is most likely a correlation between price/value of an animal and abandonment. I did observe an oversupply of snakes, relative to buyers a couple of years ago, but it appears that now prices have adjusted snakes are again selling and finding new homes I wonder if the quality of care has changed now that average snakes are now hundreds of dollars instead of previously thousands of dollars? Fortunately communication and information has improved so that there is now no excuse for not caring for reptiles properly!

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Newhere said:


> I think it's more about keeping it real for the people that just want to keep a native animal that they would never get a chance to observe to such an extent in the wild. I nearly brought a jag sib as my first snake falsely advertised as a jungle and that would of been pretty disappointing for me.
> 
> I know that people keep animals for all different kinds of reasons and their motivation for keeping will reflect their view on the matter but it's pretty selfish not to consider the effects your actions may have on others in the future.


I don't think being native is a driver for keeping snakes. If it were legal to keep exotics i think they would be just as popular as natives. how many pet native dogs or birds are there compared to exotics? People like choice!


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## Waterrat (Sep 25, 2015)

There will always be division between purists and creators, but so be it.
I look at it this way - my licence allows me to keep Australian protected species, in other words, I see myself as a custodian of our native reptiles. My ethics tell me ...... I shouldn't stuff around with it, I am not a God and I care about the future of our wild populations that can easily be compromised by introductions of misfits. JMO, I am not hammering it down anyone's throat.


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## Sean_L (Sep 25, 2015)

Wokka said:


> I don't think being native is a driver for keeping snakes. If it were legal to keep exotics I think they would be just as popular as natives. how many pet native dogs or birds are there compared to exotics? People like choice!



This is because you're biased towards your own opinion. Not everyone thinks the way you think I'm afraid. That's why there are divisions such as this one. What you 'think' and what is actually the case, are very different indeed.
I appreciate that there are stunning reptiles in other countries, but if I wanted to keep them Id live over there, wherever 'there' is. I keep reptiles because they're native. And I want the reptiles I keep to be as close to what I'd see in the wild as I can possibly manage, even if that means purchasing legally wild caught reptiles with the risk that they mightn't take too well to captivity.

I don't want your exotics or you cross breeds, your hybrids, or your morphs and I don't want the risk that what I'm buying isn't what I hope it is. I wouldn't trust a keeper that cross breeds to be on the level about any of their collection because more often than not its those individuals that are in this hobby for the wrong reasons.

What you 'doubt' and what you 'think' are pretty inconsequential to me my friend.


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## ronhalling (Sep 25, 2015)

cement said:


> [h=1]Hybrid[/h]*Definition*
> _noun, plural form: hybrids_
> (general) Any of mixed origin or composition, or the combination of two or more different things.
> (biology) An offspring resulting from the cross between parents of different species or sub-species.
> ...



This is what i really like about the long time members of this forum...there ability to accept when they are wrong and state it publicly +++++ to cement  ........................Ron


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 25, 2015)

Sean_L said:


> This is because you're biased towards your own opinion. Not everyone thinks the way you think I'm afraid. That's why there are divisions such as this one. What you 'think' and what is actually the case, are very different indeed.
> I appreciate that there are stunning reptiles in other countries, but if I wanted to keep them Id live over there, wherever 'there' is. I keep reptiles because they're native. And I want the reptiles I keep to be as close to what I'd see in the wild as I can possibly manage, even if that means purchasing legally wild caught reptiles with the risk that they mightn't take too well to captivity.
> 
> I don't want your exotics or you cross breeds, your hybrids, or your morphs and I don't want the risk that what I'm buying isn't what I hope it is. I wouldn't trust a keeper that cross breeds to be on the level about any of their collection because more often than not its those individuals that are in this hobby for the wrong reasons.
> ...



That's a very aggressive response to Wokka's comment Sean - quite unnecessarily so I think. What you have stated in your response is exactly what you have been critical of Wokka for - stating his opinion. Your response is simply a statement of your opinion, and what you want in a reptile, so good luck to you...

I do agree with Wokka that exotic reptiles would be hugely popular if they were legalised - if you hadn't noticed, they are hugely popular now within some sectors of the keeping community.. Wokka's post was not an argument for or against, just stating the bleeding obvious. Similarly, Sean, what you like and expect from your pets and those with whom you deal are pretty inconsequential to most of us. That's your business and you're welcome to it...

I hasten to add that I don't support the keeping of exotics here in Oz myself, but I would have to be blind not to know how much appeal things like chameleons, tortoises and Emerald Tree Monitors would have here if they were available legally (although I believe the ETMs are in the process of entering the pipeline,along with White-lipped Pythons).

Jamie


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## Wokka (Sep 25, 2015)

Sean_L said:


> This is because you're biased towards your own opinion. Not everyone thinks the way you think I'm afraid. That's why there are divisions such as this one. What you 'think' and what is actually the case, are very different indeed.
> I appreciate that there are stunning reptiles in other countries, but if I wanted to keep them Id live over there, wherever 'there' is. I keep reptiles because they're native. And I want the reptiles I keep to be as close to what I'd see in the wild as I can possibly manage, even if that means purchasing legally wild caught reptiles with the risk that they mightn't take too well to captivity.
> 
> I don't want your exotics or you cross breeds, your hybrids, or your morphs and I don't want the risk that what I'm buying isn't what I hope it is. I wouldn't trust a keeper that cross breeds to be on the level about any of their collection because more often than not its those individuals that are in this hobby for the wrong reasons.
> ...



Fair enough! If you are not interested in the observations of other members of the reptile community it seems a waste of your time to participate in these discussions.I am continually in contact with a wide cross- section of the reptile community and don't have a particular barrow to push but think it is beneficial for the hobby to share information. 
You are obviously very passionate if you would change countries just to keep a particular pet.It may be worth being a little less offensive in your posts and to allow others to have views different to your own. Variety is the spice of life!
I accept that you are in Queensland and so may know little of the routes of my collection, but the majority of my foundation animals were legally collected from the wild which is why I have made the many previous statements about variable appearances in wild populations. 
As far as I am aware you are no friend of mine , my dear!

- - - Updated - - -


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## madsylar (Sep 25, 2015)

Redemption said:


> what happens to the mutts when the craze of these mixes is over and everyone wants the pure reptiles again.



What will happen to the pure ones if the craze of these pure animals is over and everyone wants the mutts / hybrids? The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.

/s


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## arevenant (Sep 25, 2015)

madsylar said:


> What will happen to the pure ones if the craze of these pure animals is over and everyone wants the mutts / hybrids? The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.
> 
> /s



Just choked on my lunch reading this gem.


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## Redemption (Sep 25, 2015)

madsylar said:


> What will happen to the pure ones if the craze of these pure animals is over and everyone wants the mutts / hybrids? The poor buggers end up unwanted and we all know what happens to unwanted pets.
> 
> /s



Not sure if srs. Most people end up coming back to the pure animals within the pet industry, what do you think happens to unwanted mixes? I don't know how much experience you have, but watching how the pet industry works, this is what happens.


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## Sean_L (Sep 25, 2015)

Haha. [MENTION=41835]Wokka[/MENTION] and [MENTION=41820]pythoninfinite[/MENTION]. I was just stirring really. The whole point of the comment was to show that there is always someone who has a different or 'minority' opinion, even if you think that isn't the case.

I don't agree with hybrids, etc, but at the same time, I already proposed a method by which keepers could do what they want while keeping myself an others like me happy. But it was pointed out that it would be too hard to implement (and I do agree) because people are selfish and useless at following rules or doing anything other than what they damn well please. Most are asses really, but the world sure would be a boring place if everyone was reasonable and responsible. ;-)

As for pointing out what I had written Jamie, thanks, but I'm the one who wrote it after all, so I'm well aware of what it said. Every one of my sentences had 'I' in it so I fully accept that it was my opinion. However the very fact that I had a differing opinion to Wokka's statement proves my statement. He didn't believe it was important to anyone that a snake was native. I proved him wrong as a living breathing example. Cant deny that.

You must have taken my post the wrong way Wokka. I don't deny discussion can be beneficial. What I deny is that its correct to assume, based solely on what you personally feel, that an idea or way of thinking is or isn't held by others.
Sometimes letting others have their way isn't in the best interests of anyone or anything other than those few, however. The world can't just be a free for all.


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## cement (Sep 25, 2015)

ronhalling said:


> This is what i really like about the long time members of this forum...there ability to accept when they are wrong and state it publicly +++++ to cement  ........................Ron



Hi Ron, thats great that you noticed mate and I do thank you for your kind words, but.....
I honestly don't atribute my personality in any way to being a long term member of this forum, ive arrived at who I am through very, very differnt means.
Cheers though, all the best.


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## ronhalling (Sep 25, 2015)

cement said:


> Hi Ron, thats great that you noticed mate and I do thank you for your kind words, but.....
> I honestly don't atribute my personality in any way to being a long term member of this forum, ive arrived at who I am through very, very differnt means.
> Cheers though, all the best.



I honestly did not mean to infer that who you are and what you know is directly attributable to your presence on this forum, more that you have enough heart and balls to admit you are wrong in the face of all those here that know they are wrong but just keep argueing a mute point in the presence of truth, sorry if it came across any other way.  ...................Ron


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## cement (Sep 25, 2015)

yeah cheers mate, no offence taken, all good.


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## madsylar (Sep 25, 2015)

Redemption said:


> Not sure if srs. Most people end up coming back to the pure animals within the pet industry, what do you think happens to unwanted mixes? I don't know how much experience you have, but watching how the pet industry works, this is what happens.



/s for sarcasm.


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 27, 2015)

Sean_L said:


> Haha. @Wokka and @pythoninfinite. I was just stirring really. The whole point of the comment was to show that there is always someone who has a different or 'minority' opinion, even if you think that isn't the case.
> 
> I don't agree with hybrids, etc, but at the same time, I already proposed a method by which keepers could do what they want while keeping myself an others like me happy. But it was pointed out that it would be too hard to implement (and I do agree) because people are selfish and useless at following rules or doing anything other than what they damn well please. Most are asses really, but the world sure would be a boring place if everyone was reasonable and responsible. ;-)
> 
> ...



I actually couldn't see anywhere where Wokka said keeping purebred native species was unimportant to any or all keepers. He did suggest that it wasn't necessarily a driver for the hobby as it stands today, and I agree with him. But there will always be people like myself, who have not the slightest interest in crossbreeds or crossbreeding, and yes, I admit I find it distasteful. I look at them the same way I see smokers these days - with all the info out there, and so many means to help smokers stop smoking... I can't help thinking "LOSERS!" The difference between crossbreeders and us is that we do no harm to the captive gene pool, the crossbreeders bugger it up for all of us because it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep track of the mongrels once they enter the pet trade. I make this statement with no preconception about the various taxonomic works, done or underway, which relate in particular to Australian pythons.

Jamie


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## Sean_L (Sep 27, 2015)

Wokka said:

_"I don't think being native is a driver for keeping snakes."

_I was simply stating that this is in fact the case, as its a driver for myself and I would suppose, [MENTION=38452]Newhere[/MENTION] also, as they brought up the issue to begin with. I would assume there are others that feel this way also, although I can't speak for them obviously.

But I agree whole heartedly with the rest of your post.


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## Redemption (Sep 27, 2015)

I just don't want too see more animals going down the same track as most unwanted pets, like dogs. Mixed breeds seem to be the most unwanted at the end of the day.


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## Newhere (Sep 27, 2015)

Yep that is correct Sean_L

And I'm sure for many others too...


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## Wokka (Sep 28, 2015)

Sean_L said:


> Wokka said:
> 
> _"I don't think being native is a driver for keeping snakes."
> 
> ...


I agree that being native is a driver for keeping snakes.(for some keepers). I should have written that i don't think being native is a significant driver for the whole hobby of keeping snakes.


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## pythoninfinite (Sep 28, 2015)

I truly think that the species purists are largely the older keepers like myself, who remember the struggles we had with the various state bureaucracies in the 80s & 90s, just to be able to keep snakes legally in this country. With the exception of WA & the NT, where a licensed wild-take is permitted, animals already held illegally were put on permits by means of amnesties etc. The people who held these animals would, I think, have first-hand experience of these critters in the bush, and like me, still see the connection between the reptile and its habitat. Because captive breeding is a relatively new phenomenon, their animals were always easily identified by species. The advent of easy captive breeding has led to the commodification of reptiles and a huge increase in "lounge-room herpetologists" who see their animals as quirky or "cool," and are not remotely interested in the natural history (you could read here "no respect for the natural history") of their critters - the only criterion is that their animals look "cool," and it's especially good if their animals look "cooler" than anyone else's. Indeed, the only interest they show in reptile physiology is when something goes wrong and they don't know how to deal with it because they don't know how reptiles work.

From what I read here on APS, after years of reading and watching, it's fairly easy to see the newcomers who actually take a deep interest in their charges, and are keen to learn all that they can, and those who treat them flippantly as some kind of gimmicky pets.

I fully understand that change is inevitable with just about everything in our lives, and during our lifetimes. I have always regarded the "purists" who breed like-to-like as doing no harm to anyone else in the hobby, but the cavalier cross-breeding being done "just because I can" is muddying the waters in which I myself live, and I have a right to object to that. It bemuses me that some cross-breeders have reached almost hero status just because they produced, by chance, some shiny new and desirable critter, or they were the first with money to get their hands on the newest illegally imported morph - certainly not because they were especially clever, just lucky or well-funded.

That's my rant for the day !

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Sep 28, 2015)

Spot on Jamie.
I don't like when taxonomists present us with "new species" that are unrecognizable in the field unless you take a DNA sample and have it analyzed. Equally, I don't like man-made morphs that one can't assign to species or to animals typical of certain localities. Like Jamie, I think I have the right to object to what the "creators" are doing to our wildlife. If anyone thinks it's not wildlife, go and tell the licensing departments.


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## Sean_L (Sep 28, 2015)

[MENTION=41835]Wokka[/MENTION] That's fair enough. A much more agreeable way of putting it.


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## Frillmiester (Sep 28, 2015)




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## Newhere (Sep 28, 2015)

Also some people just respect the animals for what they are and as they are and see no need for them to be changed by humans.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 8, 2015)

What Jamie said.^


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## Sdaji (Oct 15, 2015)

Newhere said:


> Also some people just respect the animals for what they are and as they are and see no need for them to be changed by humans.



Some, maybe, but extremely few. The majority of people would prefer an albino snake or blindingly yellow and black Jungle more striking than anything you can find in the wild. Even the locality purist enthusiasts like myself would prefer the best looking individual rather than a typical example of a wild animal, and surely we'd all prefer an enthusiastic mouse feeder to something which wants to start on skinks. Virtually all of us would like to change the animals to make them better suited to captivity, whether or not that involves crossing localities/taxa.

I'm sure if you hatched a bright blue Carpet Python with green polka dots you'd be pretty thrilled.


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## Newhere (Oct 15, 2015)

Sdaji said:


> Some, maybe, but extremely few. The majority of people would prefer an albino snake or blindingly yellow and black Jungle more striking than anything you can find in the wild. Even the locality purist enthusiasts like myself would prefer the best looking individual rather than a typical example of a wild animal, and surely we'd all prefer an enthusiastic mouse feeder to something which wants to start on skinks. Virtually all of us would like to change the animals to make them better suited to captivity, whether or not that involves crossing localities/taxa.
> 
> I'm sure if you hatched a bright blue Carpet Python with green polka dots you'd be pretty thrilled.



People keep animals for all different kinds of reasons and their reason for keeping will reflect their view on the matter. Simple as that.

I only have one python and that's all I want and I'm happy with it as a specimen of a pure locale and an example of what you would find in the wild. I respect it and I respect the time it's taken for them to evolve the patterns that they carry and I see no need for it to be any other way.


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## Sdaji (Oct 15, 2015)

Newhere said:


> People keep animals for all different kinds of reasons and their reason for keeping will reflect their view on the matter. Simple as that.
> 
> I only have one python and that's all I want and I'm happy with it as a specimen of a pure locale and an example of what you would find in the wild. I respect it and I respect the time it's taken for them to evolve the patterns that they carry and I see no need for it to be any other way.



That's great, I think that's a really lovely attitude and it's closer to what more people had when I was first keeping herps back in the 80s. I miss those days, and I wish there was more of that spirit still around. 

However, looking at the reality of the present day, if I had 1000 bog standard Children's Pythons and 1000 albino Children's Pythons, and advertised them at the same price, I'd sell out of albinos and have a huge load of further requests before I sold my first regular one. If I had 1000 typical Jungles and 1000 jungles with brighter and cleaner yellow than anything you'd ever see naturally, against perfect solid black, I doubt I'd sell more than 5 typical ones before I'd sold out of the speccy ones. Same goes for any species.

There will always be a huge diversity of people doing different things for different reasons, but the vast majority most want the prettiest, healthiest, or most rare.

Would you honestly suggest that a python breeder not select the prettiest babies for the next generation?


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## Newhere (Oct 15, 2015)

Yea people these days are programmed to be sheep and follow the herd. I know this and it still doesn't change my opinion on the matter. I don't feel like I need to relate to your way of thinking because it has nothing to do with me or my reason for keeping an animal. 

I own a beautiful intergrade and I guarantee you there is even better looking specimens in the wild (have seen photos of some awesome looking wild ones that put mine to shame) so for me your point is just not valid.


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## twistedFrog (Oct 16, 2015)

Yeah the cool looking snakes, the ones you see advertised as beautiful looking snake 2 Y/O, but I just don't have the time he/she deserves anymore??? "reading the truth behind this Ad - I bought a snake coz it looked cool, I did no research and I never knew they lived for 20 years and the novelty wore off. I have shown it off to everyone I could already (my mates don't think it is cool anymore), got it out the other day for the first time in a month and it was aggressive!!! Ohh... and did I forget to mention watching TV, playing X-Box keeps me super busy busy, so I do not have the small amount of time a day to give attention to the needs of a python."

Just another view, but those that will, will do what they want anyway, so no point trying to educate - the educated!!!


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