# Good news, new W.A species addition's approved



## PilbaraPythons (Sep 3, 2013)

Good news, new W.A species addition's approved.
Water pythons 
Rough scaled pythons
Pygmy Pythons
North Westerns Carpets
Brown Tree snakes
Time to go herping and have me some paid fun I think
Regards Dave


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## Pilbarensis (Sep 3, 2013)

What, no new lizards?


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## Bushman (Sep 3, 2013)

It's about time! This is long overdue and no doubt welcome news for WA reptile keepers.
Hard to believe that you guys haven't been able to keep these endemic species until now. 
Was this the result of lobbying or did the wildlife authorities finally come around of their own accord? Either way, it's a victory for common sense.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 3, 2013)

Bushman said:


> It's about time! This is long overdue and no doubt welcome news for WA reptile keepers.
> Hard to believe that you guys haven't been able to keep these endemic species until now.
> Was this the result of lobbying or did the wildlife authorities finally come around of their own accord? Either way, it's a victory for common sense.



Was the good work of the WAHS that made this happen


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 3, 2013)

Great news... only 9 years after they promised a review... better late than never!!! Roughies and NW Carpets will be a bit thin on the ground if you have to rely on wildcaught!

Jamie


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 3, 2013)

But fun of going there to look Jamie lol

Actually it would feel a bit weird finding a roughy knowing that you aren't going to get hung up by your balls if you are seen


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## davobmx (Sep 3, 2013)

How long you feel to these are readily available?
Obviously gona take a while to take off.
Been dreaming of a Roughie and Nw for years.


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## Snowman (Sep 3, 2013)

The east coast are about to get a whole lot more variation in their pygmy pythons!!!


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 3, 2013)

Locale specific Pygmys here we come lol
Candy cane Tree snakes yum yum yum lol


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## Snowman (Sep 3, 2013)

Pilbarensis said:


> What, no new lizards?


Whats a lizard?


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## Stevo2 (Sep 3, 2013)

So the approval is for wild caught herps?


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## Snowman (Sep 3, 2013)

Stevo2 said:


> So the approval is for wild caught herps?


Both....


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## Justdragons (Sep 3, 2013)

Can you import to?

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Tapatalk 2


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## Snowman (Sep 3, 2013)

Justdragons said:


> Can you import to?
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7105T using Tapatalk 2


We can import anything but pythons.... So the only new additions that will be imported are Boiga Irregularis. 
DPaW (DEC) will be watching the NWCP closely I think. Anyone who magically gets an albino will be getting special treatment no doubt. Part of our license conditions is allowing them to DNA test. So I imagine they will be trying to match the strain of known albinos with anything that pops up here. It will also be interesting to watch how they monitor the two sub species NWCP and SWCP and if any jerks try to cross bread them.


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## andynic07 (Sep 3, 2013)

Snowman said:


> We can import anything but pythons.... So the only new additions that will be imported are Boiga Irregularis.
> DPaW (DEC) will be watching the NWCP closely I think. Anyone who magically gets an albino will be getting special treatment no doubt. Part of our license conditions is allowing them to DNA test. So I imagine they will be trying to match the strain of known albinos with anything that pops up here. It will also be interesting to watch how they monitor the two sub species NWCP and SWCP and if any jerks try to cross bread them.


Sounds like a new $1000 license fee mate.

I think my next snake will be a RSP.


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## andynic07 (Sep 3, 2013)

And the RSP will be able to be kept on my standard license that costs $66.25 for five years. I am glad that you guys have more species to choose from and it makes it a little closer to national rules.


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## Niall (Sep 3, 2013)

Give it a couple months and a lot of hidden pygmies that would of been pouched over here illegally and sent east will slowly start making a appearance on the market!!


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 4, 2013)

I am not so sure about that Niall, they still have to have a trail from a W.A dealer so what would a dealer really gain by covering someone's paper work?


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 4, 2013)

These have been a long time coming. We could have had them more than 18 months earlier, had we been willing to accept the offer at the time of a review and considerations of additional animals every five years. The WAHS membership voted against accepting this and the committee then set about galvanising as much political pressure as it could. This include direct lettters to the minister, strategic discussions with the shadow minister, letters and personal approaches to local members and pressure applied directly to the department. We did not write the letter for member but provided an examplar of how to go to go about. This was supported by a long list of logical arguments, but members were also encouraged to add their own. One particular committtee member brought significant pressure to bear through his committe sanctioned but self-funded FOI requests.


While it certainly felt like we were losing most battles, we did in fact win the war. DEC gave an unequivcal undertaking, amongst other things, to provide a continous process of assessment with respect to the extensive original list of suggested additions to the keeping list. This is occuring groups of six submitted species at a time and we should be able able to expect the second submission of six to be assessed by now or close to it , and a submission put to the minister for approval and gazetting in the very near future. The committee had to work hard to contain the negativity of the cynics out their and "I know better than you do" brigade but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and all I can say is i hope those indivioduals like the tast of 'humble pie' because that is soon to be on the menu for them.


Please be aware that the allocation to categories at this stage is both conservative and governed by factor beyond those stated in the regs. Timr and increased availability will ultimatley see a more appropriate categorisation of those species deserving of it.


The final point point I would like to make is that if were not for the efforts of WAHS, absolutely nothing would have changed! All herp keepers in WA, members or otherwise, can thank that society for all expansion and improvements in their hobby. Well done!


Blue


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 4, 2013)

Postulating about illegals coming out of the woodwork is, as *Dave* says, a waste of time. DEC have gone overboard to ensure there is a paper trail for each and every wild caught animal and each and every transacted animal between owners. While their system is not foolproof, it makes it very difficult to legalise illegally acquired animals. I realise that for the everyday keeper it is a plain pain in the butt but it is effective in reducing the illegal trade in reptiles and /or amphibians, so very prevalent in some other states.


Blue


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 4, 2013)

I actually think it has little more than a local effect on reducing the illegal trade in herps. Just about anything that is endemic to WA is available in the other states, and has been for years. I don't condone the illegal collection and movement of herps from WA to the other states, but the few individuals caught and convicted of doing this would be just the tip of the iceberg. Many of the offenders are known to the authorities, but are very slippery indeed.

Jamie


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 4, 2013)

That’s pretty much sums it up Jamie. It will be interested to see how popular some of the new locale specific additions become over your way, the southern Pygmy’s might be of interest to a few I would think and of course our Kimberly banded tree snakes I am guessing.


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## champagne (Sep 4, 2013)

No new monitors on the list?


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## butters (Sep 4, 2013)

So that list is 5. What was the sixth species?

Congratulations guys in WA. Be some very excited helpers over there at the moment I'm sure.


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## stencorp69 (Sep 4, 2013)

Egernia Depressa was not approved - I'm not sure of the specifics yet but I understand from others it has some issues due to its recent reclassification. I'm sure we will get some feed back from DEC at some stage.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 4, 2013)

Egernia depressa


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## butters (Sep 4, 2013)

Thanks for that.


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## skittles-1994 (Sep 4, 2013)

This is probably a stupid question - but if we still can't import, how will the new species become available? Will we only have wild caught specimens available until private breeders breed new stock? 

Also yeay for WA! Slowly catching up  can't wait to get my paws on a water python!


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 4, 2013)

I know CALM... DEC... whatever they're called now had a number of RSPs in Broome back in the early 2000s, and they did lay eggs. Whether or not they were eventually bred I don't know. There was a proposal to place them with reg 16 holders some years ago, so if that happened there may be pool of these animals from which the pet trade could benefit. Water pythons will not be in short supply I expect.

Jamie


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## phatty (Sep 4, 2013)

skittles-1994 said:


> This is probably a stupid question - but if we still can't import, how will the new species become available? Will we only have wild caught specimens available until private breeders breed new stock?
> 
> Also yeay for WA! Slowly catching up  can't wait to get my paws on a water python!



I think you answered your own question 

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 4


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## phatty (Sep 4, 2013)

Snowman said:


> We can import anything but pythons.... So the only new additions that will be imported are Boiga Irregularis.
> DPaW (DEC) will be watching the NWCP closely I think. Anyone who magically gets an albino will be getting special treatment no doubt. Part of our license conditions is allowing them to DNA test. So I imagine they will be trying to match the strain of known albinos with anything that pops up here. It will also be interesting to watch how they monitor the two sub species NWCP and SWCP and if any jerks try to cross bread them.


why would they need to import the Boiga they can get them from north WA

i cant seem to see the new list on the dec web site 
i have also noticed that there is 5 cat but no animals in cat 1


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## Snowman (Sep 4, 2013)

phatty said:


> why would they need to import the Boiga they can get them from north WA
> 
> i cant seem to see the new list on the dec web site
> i have also noticed that there is 5 cat but no animals in cat 1


Importing means prices are kept at a more constant level and have access to a wider range of sources. If you could import rough scaled pythons then we propably would not be paying the $10k plus price that the first lot will fetch.
importing just means more options really.


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## Snowman (Sep 4, 2013)




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## phatty (Sep 4, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Importing means prices are kept at a more constant level and have access to a wider range of sources. If you could import rough scaled pythons then we propably would not be paying the $10k plus price that the first lot will fetch.
> importing just means more options really.


$10k for a roughy i will meet you at the boarder haha i can see what your saying tho a lot more effort involved. I cant believe they ways your cat are set up I consider my self lucky living in the territory.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 4, 2013)

Jamie as far as the Broome Rough scales go this was my little experience with them. I visited the Broome DEC reptile collection many years ago and it was very clear that they had absolutely no frigging idea what they were doing with regards to successfully expanding the Rough scale population. They breed them every year okay but persisted with maternal incubation in conditions that wouldn’t ever allow it be ever successful. When the eggs died they took the view that the eggs were always infertile in the first place and not their fault, not the fact that temperature inside the caging supplied got to such ridiculously high temperatures for long periods that it was always going to kill them lol. I even offered free of charge a purpose build incubator to place inside their air conditioned office but was turned down because I guess they thought they knew best lol. One season they did contact me 2 weeks after a clutch because they hadn’t set up a suitable nest box or conditions and the eggs were shrinking. After seeing the pics of a nice looking clutch but dehydrated I advised them to provide humidity and a stable temperature and also to ever so slightly mist the eggs to immediately rehydrate them a bit. They then sent me a later pic of them in a child’s humidity crib and what looked like the eggs had just had a whole bucket of water poured over them lol. It was hard to get angry though (more disappointed) as the head of the DEC up there at the time really was an absolutely fantastic bloke but definitely not a snake person (you know who I am talking about Jamie lol)


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 4, 2013)

My personal opinion is that the paper trail created by the system implemented by CALM is unnecessarily complex and we have worked behind the scenes to have it simplified. It requires the existing committee to pick up the baton on that one if it is going to happen. 

With the splitting up of the E. drepessa complex, each new species now requires a separate official evaluation of its conservation status, despite the fact that we know the depressa species is far away the common and widespread. I have no idea when that is likely to happen but I sure as hell would not hold my breath. once it does they will get added to the list.

I am pretty sure there is a monitor or two currently in the pipeline. 

Nothing was committed by DEC as regards the sourcing of RSPs, which is partly why I was pleasantly surprised to discover they had been given the green light. There are two private reptile parks that have animals but it will require an exemption to breed them and dispose of the offspring commercially. Something else the WAHS committee will no doubt organise on behalf of WA keepers. I think someone told me the Broome animals went to SA so they are out of contention.

Someone mentioned claiming wild-caught animals as captive bred but I cannot remember if it was this thread or elsewhere. Not a good idea. DPaW have access to all the technology and have used it many times. It was initially employed to reduce robbing cockatoo nests of eggs and young. The number of claims of eggs produced by breeding Red-tailed Cockatoos went from 300 one year to 1 the next. It has already been used on a number of occasions within the reptile keeping system.

Hope that answers all the questions adequately - I'll be back later if not.

Speaking of "slippery characters" Jamie, do we know any more about what happened to a certain person that fits that bill?

Blue


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## swampie (Sep 4, 2013)

Exciting news for WA and East coast keepers alike.....Wouldn't mind getting my hands on some locale spec pygmies......


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 4, 2013)

Dave, your comments re: Broome RSPs mirror my own to a T. Several clutches, all lost due to lack of expertise or interest... damned shame. But I agree with you about the officer too...

Mike, I'm sure I know who you're referring to... and there might be a bit to report by the end of this week. It would be great if I had good news for you from this side of the country, so I've got my fingers crossed. Slippery he is...

Jamie


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 4, 2013)

Can sort you out there swampie


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## AmazingMorelia (Sep 4, 2013)

Also does anyone have North Westerns from WA in captivity? If not how long before there would be any collected?


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 4, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> Also does anyone have North Westerns from WA in captivity? If not how long before there would be any collected?



That's a good question. They're very uncommon in WA.

Jamie


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## Snowman (Sep 4, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> Also does anyone have North Westerns from WA in captivity? If not how long before there would be any collected?


There's at least one I know of.


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## Stimm (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi Dave

I've been trying to get in touch with you about locality specific womas.

Can't send you a PM though as your inbox is full.


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## Allan (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi Dave,
Exciting news. Do you have any pics of what we can expect? 
Hans


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 4, 2013)

AmazingMorelia said:


> Also does anyone have North Westerns from WA in captivity? If not how long before there would be any collected?


 There are not supposed to be any in captivity at the moment. I know there are a couple of licensed takers in Broome and there are no doubt a few who might want to make a collecting trip up north. However, that has to be balanced with the paperwork you need to put in first, gaining permission of the land owner of the property on which you wish to collect - not always a given, particularly if 3 or 4 others have been there before you and the owner is getting very peeved. Takers need to factor in total time spent and and transport costs, including depreciation on vehicles and then their own effort. Bottom line... collection from remote areas is not a financially attractive or rewarding proposition and is only likely to be undertaken by those that live within reasonable striking distance. Whatever, it is going to take a bit of time, particularly if takers pass on what they catch to a given individual to breed them so as to make only the offspring available for sale.

Blue


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 4, 2013)

Stimm the inbox won't let me empty it for some reason, abit like my girlfriend lately


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## Stimm (Sep 4, 2013)

I've sent a message through Facebook on what I'm after.


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## stencorp69 (Sep 4, 2013)

I recieved a reply from Gordon Wyre this afternoon regarding egernia depressa

_From memory it was a taxonomic issue associated with the splitting of the species into several new species or something similar and proposal that some of the new groups would be considered threatened.

I will get more detail for you. Note also that the new group of species will remain on the “possible” list while the new status is sorted further._

So it is still being assessed and I imagine will be included on the gazzette when the second list of six is finalised.


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## Pilbarensis (Sep 4, 2013)

Would anyone have any idea as to what species might be added on the next list? (hehe maybe some D. superba anyone?)
Anyway good luck to you snake breeders and especially to those in WA.


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## stencorp69 (Sep 4, 2013)

this is the next batch of 6 currently being assessed

Common Tree Snake (Dendrelaphis punctulata)
North-west red-faced turtle (Emydura australis)
Pilbara Rock Monitor (Varanus pilbarensis)
Northern Bluetongue (Tiliqua s. intermedia )
Banded Knob-tailed Gecko (Nephrurus wheeleri)
Yellow-faced Whip-Snake (Demansia psammophis)


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## Pilbarensis (Sep 4, 2013)

Oh damn, well it doesn't take a genius to guess what species on that list has me excited...


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 4, 2013)

The WA Yellow-faced Whipsnakes, especially those closer to Perth, are just gorgeous - very much brighter than here on the east coast.

Jamie


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## adderboy (Sep 4, 2013)

And still no Acanthophis praelongus... Sigh.

Bluetongue1, there is one North-west carpet in captivity that I know of - it's held on a Reg 16 by someone in the Kimberley. That itself poses some probs, but nothing insurmountable.

Simon


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## getarealdog (Sep 4, 2013)

adderboy said:


> And still no Acanthophis praelongus... Sigh.
> Simon



And when they are Simon, they're here waiting for you! Cheers Mate.


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## PilbaraPythons (Sep 5, 2013)

My understanding is that we are not permitted to breed our reg 16 reptiles and furthermore can not trade reg 16 reptile to private keepers.
No matter, its an excuse for me to go hard core remote Kimberly bush lol


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## adderboy (Sep 5, 2013)

Yes, a few of those Cape Crawford beauties will do for starters, Nigel! Heh, but I might be in an old people's home by the time they are on our list...


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 5, 2013)

*Adderboy* and *Snowman*,


My mistake about the Nor-west Carpet. I had been told about it in the past but was not thinking 'Reg 16s' when referring to "captivity". Besides which, I am getting old...


As *Dave* has said, they are particularly strict about reg 16 animals and what may or may not be done with them. Once an animal has been put on a Reg 16, it remains as such, irrespective, and can only be transferred to another Reg 16 license. Whatever the means of sourcing animals turns out to be you rest assured that neither is going to be readily availble in a hurry. 


I agree about the whips, *Jamie*. But I would still trade you for a creek that runs all year and a colony or water dragons.


Blue


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 5, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Adderboy* and *Snowman*,
> 
> 
> My mistake about the Nor-west Carpet. I had been told about it in the past but was not thinking 'Reg 16s' when referring to "captivity". Besides which, I am getting old...
> ...



Well Mike, you'll need to come back to NSW to have year-round creeks. We have two very deep gullies on our property, one with a 10m waterfall, alas they only have pools at the moment, but when it rains a bit our waterfall roars for days! Lots of big Dendrobiums (flowering now actually), Bangalow Palms and elks & stags... very pleasant... but the surrounding higher country is dryish sclerophyll with Cymbidium suave in the higher trees...

Jamie


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## Tristan (Sep 5, 2013)

daim now one has to choose BTS or RSP


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## stencorp69 (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't think there is much of a choice between BTS and RSP ATM - BTS are available now RSP 2-3 years


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 5, 2013)

With respect to _Egernia depressa_, what was pointed out at the meeting in February was each of the new species created would have to be evaluated before any action could be taken. I explained that there were two Pilbara rock dwelling species and then depressa, a timber dwelling species with a widespread distribution from the Pilbara down into the northern wheat belt and goldfields and common as muck. We acknowledged the existence of the isolated central species but left it out of consideration. I can only assume that the “assessment” referred to is that of its conversation status. What is apparent is that there has been no follow up to that conversation with respect to progress or likely timing of an assessment of _E. depressa_. It would certainly be appropriate, depending upon the reply Stencorp receives to his recent email.
 

*Jamie*, 
You do know how to rub salt into the wounds! I have long been in awe of the hardiness of some of the Dendrobiums native to NSW. I have seen them epiphytic on large sloping slabs of rock exposed to full sun in shallow gullies. Unfortunately my interests in the local epiphytes there was curtailed for practical reasons but I do still have a number of elks and a long suffering D. speciosum. Would love to see the C. suave in its natural habitat. Is their scent detectable on hot still days? No doubt there are also Sarcochilus species to be found there - something I was just starting to learn about. Dendrobium have been split to form Dockarillia but I have yet to get my head around that one. I do have a couple of Gymea Lilies here that I grew from seed but have not flowered yet, more as a reflection of my neglect than the age of the plants. Based on my childhood experiences they are very much a signature species of Hawkesbury sandstone to me. Pardon my indulgent wander down memory lane there.

Blue


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## Snowman (Sep 5, 2013)

I know that three water pythons were wild collected last night


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## stencorp69 (Sep 5, 2013)

from whose house


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## Snowman (Sep 5, 2013)

stencorp69 said:


> from whose house


Hahaha  No a licensed wild taker in the Kimberly.


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 5, 2013)

No flies on Keith.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 5, 2013)

Mike, you would have seen my post about Simpson this afternoon - you were asking about him yesterday, and I knew he was in court but didn't want to say anything until there was a conclusive result. I wasn't sure when the case would be concluded - it was scheduled to run for 3 days, but the guilty plea to 4 charges meant there was only the sentencing hearing to be dealt with today. As it was conducted and concluded in open court, it's something that all herpers should know about, he's a person to be very wary of. There will be more in the print press next week.

Jamie


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 5, 2013)

Thanks Jamie. Actually I did not see your thread as I have been busy the last few days.

Blue


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## adderboy (Sep 6, 2013)

stencorp69 said:


> RSP 2-3 years



Ever the optimist, Stephen...

S


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## Tristan (Sep 6, 2013)

so where can i see a list of whats available now and what license class they have been added too?


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## stencorp69 (Sep 6, 2013)

Come Simon, got cut me a little slack I was the only one who thought we'd be able to get them through on the first go .


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## Snowman (Sep 6, 2013)

Tristan said:


> so where can i see a list of whats available now and what license class they have been added too?


http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/gazette/gazette.nsf/gazlist/97E25F3ACA0B16BB48257BDA000BD9A6/$file/gg163.pdf


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 6, 2013)

stencorp69 said:


> Come Simon, got cut me a little slack I was the only one who thought we'd be able to get them through on the first go .


I can vouch for the fact that I did not expect RSP's but was comfortable that the BTS would get a guernsey.

Blue


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 6, 2013)

The interesting thing is the number of Kimberley species - I wonder if it's finally sinking in that some of these species mayactually become extinct because current legislation pretty much guarantees it as Cane Toads become established...

J


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 7, 2013)

The species were chosen by society members, being the only representative body of the hobby in WA. But in terms of approvals, yes, you do have to wonder if has been prompted by a “get them while you can” and before the cane toads do. There has been a flurry of research into stopping the toads... something that should have been done twenty years ago when it was clearly evident that what is happening today was simply a matter of time. 

Given the amount study put into the toads, the likelihood of finding a “silver bullet” diminishes with time. I would imagine that under the circumstances the Department is hopeful that natural selection finds an effective solution, be it behavioural, structural or physiological. They do not seem to be pre-emptive in recommending highly vulnerable species to be added to the list of reptiles and amphibians that may be kept as pets.

Blue


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## stencorp69 (Sep 7, 2013)

You are right Mike I was surprised BTS got included - and I image we will get another couple of _Egernia XXXXX added to the list once the conservation status is sorted_


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## Tristan (Sep 7, 2013)

cat 5 great so it will cost stupid amounts of money each year to keep them :/
thanks for the link Snowman


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## Snowman (Sep 10, 2013)

Tristan said:


> cat 5 great so it will cost stupid amounts of money each year to keep them :/
> thanks for the link Snowman



A bit less than $1 a day in license fees.

Hope they sort out the taking and importing changes soon. None of the new additions can be wild caught or imported at the moment...


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## Red-Ink (Sep 10, 2013)

You guys should hook us up in the east and tackle the export charges while you guys are at it


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## stencorp69 (Sep 11, 2013)

Gordon Wyre has sent me another email this morning confirming that the reclassified former single E. depressa species are still under review - that is they have not been ruled out of being added to the Reptile keeping list at this stage. The feed back from the officer undertaking the assesment is as follows

_Given recent taxonomic revision of this group (Doughty et al. 2011) there are now four separate species of the former single E. depressa species, with a need to further investigate each new species’ natural distribution.

The new four separate species are currently considered to be found in specific distributions as follows: E. depressa (restricted to SW), E. eos (central ranges), E. cygnitos (southern pilbara) and E. epsisolus (northern pilbara). 

It is possible that one or more of these new species may be under some level of conservation threat and this needs to be further investigated. The new speciation may cause problems with identification and thus create issues in relation to enforcement in terms of specific species or hybrids.

The original E. depressa has been highly sought after in the eastern states and overseas and adding one or more of the new species to the captive keeping list in WA may eventually help to reduce poaching from WA, provided secure, non threatening, wild harvesting operations can be ensured. In the interim, however, there is likely to be a strong desire for keepers locally and internationally to have each species, possibly putting considerable collection pressure on wild populations._


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## Bluetongue1 (Sep 12, 2013)

*Tristan*,
Based on care requirements alone, Rough-scaled Pythons are a Category 3 animal. However, the level of difficulty in caring for an animal is not the sole criterion used in determining its category. 

The criteria for Cat 5 from the 2002 Regs: “Category 5 pet herpetofauna is fauna that the Minister considers
(a) is dangerous;
(b) is threatened or endangered in the wild;
(c) has highly specialised feeding or housing requirements; or
(d) is very difficult to keep in captivity.”

The RSP has not been evaluated in term of its conversation status. It has, however been put on the WA List of Declared Fauna as “Priority One: Poorly-known species (on threatened lands)”. This list relates to legislation in the 1950 Act, as follows...
*WILDLIFE CONSERVATION ACT 1950 - SECT 14 *


The Minister may, from time to time by notice published in the _Government Gazette _, declare that any fauna specified in the notice is for the purposes of this Act fauna which is likely to become extinct, or is rare, or otherwise in need of special protection and while such declaration is in operation 
From the department... Such specially protected wildlife (fauna and flora) is considered to be "threatened".

I would suggest that the ‘threatened’ tag is the justification for putting it into Category 5. Whether that is the rationale behind doing so is highly questionable.

Blue


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## Lachesis (Sep 12, 2013)

Will Pilbara Olives ever be available for the hobby?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## Snowman (Sep 12, 2013)

Lachesis said:


> Will Pilbara Olives ever be available for the hobby?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


probably not in the next 10 years or longer....


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## reptilezac (Sep 16, 2013)

well at least there starting to get more of a variety of species to keep


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 17, 2013)

It's interesting that the WA bureaucrats put RSPs into Cat 5 - not a difficult python to keep, and already they're in surplus over here in the east, after about 10 years of captive breeding. The same thing should happen with Pilbara Olives - very big snakes, big clutches, limited appeal in the hobby... collect a few that would otherwise be crushed under the wheels of a road-train (heavens... you can't do that, you might endanger the species..!), within 5 years you'd have hundreds of them.

But I guess there's a hinderance to that - once in the trade, most petkeepers wouldn't know a Pilbara from a northern Olive, so the genetics would be stuffed up in no time... maybe not such a good idea. Best to leave them where they are...

Jamie


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## ChargerWA (Sep 17, 2013)

Congratulations to the guys who got these changes through. The thing I don't understand is if the DEC knows there are large captive populations already of some of these species on the east coast, why don't they allow a limited number of permits (50-100) for hobbyists to import genetically suitable animals to begin the breeding base in WA?

it takes the pressure off the wild caught populations and allows the hobbyists to build a large base of animals to help future proof the survival of these species in the face of the cane toads western march.


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## Snowman (Sep 17, 2013)

WA keepers are getting slugged with another stupid tax now. Someone imported live feeder insects the other day and they got a $40 bill from quarantine WA. Like wise someone imported some elapids and they got a bill for $56 per snake, even though they didn't open and inspect the box. Add to that the $100 per animal fee to DEC and the $30 permit to import....


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## stencorp69 (Sep 17, 2013)

yep the same is happening with plant seeds coming from interstate as well - I guess someone has got to pay for the government over spend


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## Snowman (Sep 17, 2013)

It used to be only business that had to pay and private was free.


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## Pythoninfinite (Sep 18, 2013)

I think it's a move to discourage the movement of any plants & animals into WA as time goes on. I sometimes buy plants online, and it's obvious there are costs incurred at this end as well for those exporting orders to WA. WA definitely has a bureaucratic seige mentality. The bloody Nullarbor is both a blessing and a curse for you guys...

Jamie


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## Snowman (Oct 24, 2013)

One of the licensed takers has just said that there is an export ban for at least the first five years on the new species that were added. I guess the rest of Australia wont be getting any WA pygmy pythons, water pythons, NWCP, brown tree snakes or RSP anytime soon...


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## RedFox (Oct 24, 2013)

I guess we will have to wait a few years until different locales of pygmy pythons are available.  

It does make sense as it allows you guys in WA to establish captive populations before exporting (in theory anyhow)


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## Snowman (Oct 24, 2013)

Yeah. Probably should have been that way from the start. The wheatbelt got destroyed with the demand for stimi's.


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## RedFox (Oct 24, 2013)

I thought there would have been set quotas on how many animals can be taken from an area. 

And the reason for the delay on exports would have being to ensure genetic diversity in WA collections instead of a lot of animals from the quota being sent over east.

Is that not the case?


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## sprocket (Oct 24, 2013)

Sick man!!!!!!!!!!


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## Wing_Nut (Oct 24, 2013)

Now we just need the collectors to apply to have the new species added to their license AND get approved!


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 25, 2013)

I guess now that all termite mounds within sight of the roads in the Pilbara will be demolished in search of perthensis, just like the wheatbelt granites have been reduced to rubble in the search for Stimson's... It beggars belief that some of the original species are still on the wild-take lists after ten years, Stimson's and SW Carpets especially... some local populations must be just about wiped out now.

Jamie


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## DaReptileBoy (Oct 25, 2013)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Good news, new W.A species addition's approved.
> Water pythons
> Rough scaled pythons
> Pygmy Pythons
> ...



what so your going to catch these species?


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## Wing_Nut (Oct 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I guess now that all termite mounds within sight of the roads in the Pilbara will be demolished in search of perthensis, just like the wheatbelt granites have been reduced to rubble in the search for Stimson's... It beggars belief that some of the original species are still on the wild-take lists after ten years, Stimson's and SW Carpets especially... some local populations must be just about wiped out now.
> 
> Jamie



Sad but true.


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 25, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> Sad but true.



I find it quite bizarre that I and a few others spent 10 years being told by (then) CALM that allowing private individuals to keep reptiles would have huge negative consequences for wild populations, and yet they have allowed unfettered collecting of species now commonly bred to still be taken from the wild after 10 years. I guess it's like the eastern states and pokies - once governments get on the revenue drip they have difficulty weaning themselves off it - and WA has other enormous imposts on keepers as well, including the new quarantine "inspection" fee. Bizarre indeed...

Jamie


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## Wing_Nut (Oct 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I find it quite bizarre that I and a few others spent 10 years being told by (then) CALM that allowing private individuals to keep reptiles would have huge negative consequences for wild populations, and yet they have allowed unfettered collecting of species now commonly bred to still be taken from the wild after 10 years. I guess it's like the eastern states and pokies - once governments get on the revenue drip they have difficulty weaning themselves off it - and WA has other enormous imposts on keepers as well, including the new quarantine "inspection" fee. Bizarre indeed...
> 
> Jamie



Without proof of same, I don't believe the licensed takers are generally to blame for any of the habitat destruction. The collectors in general hold themselves to high conservation standards (with regards to habitat) and collect in sustainable ways. The wholesale collection of common forms of the species you mentioned has been replaced by collectors chasing after more unique and interesting locale specific animals. I believe this still has a place here to establish a genetically diverse population. Having said that, I certainly believe there is a case to end the export of wild caught specimens, however the means for this to occur is unclear. 

I am more of the opinion the wholesale damage to snake habitat, especially the wheat-belt, would continue to occur regardless of rules and regulations and simply punish those who are doing the right thing (legally).

There is a definite sense over here that the department is certainly looking for ways to increase it's otherwise miserable budget and the bizarre changes seem to be a result.


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## Snowman (Oct 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I find it quite bizarre that I and a few others spent 10 years being told by (then) CALM that allowing private individuals to keep reptiles would have huge negative consequences for wild populations, and yet they have allowed unfettered collecting of species now commonly bred to still be taken from the wild after 10 years. I guess it's like the eastern states and pokies - once governments get on the revenue drip they have difficulty weaning themselves off it - and WA has other enormous imposts on keepers as well, including the new quarantine "inspection" fee. Bizarre indeed...
> 
> Jamie


Yes very bizarre. Also the limitations on captive breeding and restrictions on clutches sold makes it hard to promote breeding.


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## Bushman (Oct 25, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Yes very bizarre. Also the limitations on captive breeding and restrictions on clutches sold makes it hard to promote breeding.


What limitations and restrictions are imposed?


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 25, 2013)

If I get the go ahead , I will certainly give it a good crack


DaReptileBoy said:


> what so your going to catch these species?


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## Snowman (Oct 25, 2013)

Bushman said:


> What limitations and restrictions are imposed?


Keepers can only sell *one* clutch per year. If you breed two clutches then you are stuck with one of them till the following year
Keepers have to pay a dealer ($50) to transfer any animal to another keeper. Regional keepers have no access to dealers often so cant move any animals bred.


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## DaReptileBoy (Oct 25, 2013)

Good Luck!


PilbaraPythons said:


> If I get the go ahead , I will certainly give it a good crack


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 25, 2013)

Thanks, for 2 of the species I am going to need it lol


DaReptileBoy said:


> Good Luck!


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## Snowman (Oct 25, 2013)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Thanks, for 2 of the species I am going to need it lol



Other than RSP which one will be hard to find? NWCP or Boiga?


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 25, 2013)

Do they still persist with that absolutely stupid, counterproductive and nonsensical "Farmer's Licence" Snowy? It was the the most unbelievably stupid impost on the potential to increase captive breeding. Mawson, Wyre and a couple of others cooked up some very weird stuff in WA. I believe Mawson is now delivering his expertise (NOT) at the Perth Zoo...

Jamie


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## Snowman (Oct 25, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Do they still persist with that absolutely stupid, counterproductive and nonsensical "Farmer's Licence" Snowy? It was the the most unbelievably stupid impost on the potential to increase captive breeding. Mawson, Wyre and a couple of others cooked up some very weird stuff in WA. I believe Mawson is now delivering his expertise (NOT) at the Perth Zoo...
> 
> Jamie


Yeah can't say mawson will be missed at dec. 
The farmers license didn't take off and has been dropped. I feel captive breeding would be more efficient if they allowed keeper to keeper transfers and had no restrictions on clutches sold. Last I heard they were talking about increasing the number of clutches that can be sold, rather than just abolishing the stupid rule.
I think they under estimated how quickly the hobby would grow here. All returns and licenses are kept in hard copy files rather than being logged electronically. Can you imagine the room that must take up!
The quarterly returns got too much and were changed to annual returns. Still no carbon copies so we have to make duplicates as we need all records on hand in hard copy form.
The WAHS expo was very successful and raised a lot of money for the society. I think their last bank balance was $19k. It was a good indicator of how much more the hobby can or will grow.


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## adderboy (Oct 25, 2013)

That's the thing, isn't it? They dropped the farmer's licence, but they are still restricting breeding of species by imposing clutch sale limits. I can only interpret this as a form of financial addiction by the Dept to the royalty earned on wild take. Limit breeding so that there is still a demand for wild stock. It is also the only explanation I can think of as to why they still permit wild take of SWCPs and Stimson's. The original reason for permitting wild take was to establish a viable breeding population in captivity and that was achieved years ago with these two species, despite the ridiculous limitations put on breeders.

It's taken a very long time for things to change and I guess we'll keep trying...

S


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## Snowman (Oct 25, 2013)

Snowman said:


> The east coast are about to get a whole lot more variation in their pygmy pythons!!!



Well this statement is no longer true... At least for another five years...

- - - Updated - - -



adderboy said:


> That's the thing, isn't it? They dropped the farmer's licence, but they are still restricting breeding of species by imposing clutch sale limits. I can only interpret this as a form of financial addiction by the Dept to the royalty earned on wild take. Limit breeding so that there is still a demand for wild stock. It is also the only explanation I can think of as to why they still permit wild take of SWCPs and Stimson's. The original reason for permitting wild take was to establish a viable breeding population in captivity and that was achieved years ago with these two species, despite the ridiculous limitations put on breeders.
> 
> It's taken a very long time for things to change and I guess we'll keep trying...
> 
> S


Yep and wild caught imbricata and stimi's that are nice are still selling fast as there isn't enough captive stock. The takers are being way more selective now. And it seems that a lot of the breeders are not selective at all with animals that they pair. Some of the imbricata that Niall and Marcus are getting on takers license are far more colourful than anything I have seen in the hobby to date. I guess with a closed gene pool I would like as many variations as possible in the hobby over here. And I would like to see more captive breeding of the more interesting specimens. 
It's clear in the very early days that some of the animals taken were very average looking as far as pattern and colour are concerned. No doubt the market then was suited to it. As people just wanted an animal, with little regard to the appearance of it. I still see first time buyers with this mind set. 'A snake is a snake....' Or maybe the dull drab stimi's are preferred by some people. I guess my point is, while I support the reduction of wild caught stimi's and imbricata I think the idea of forms not represented is worth considering. Perhaps a higher royalty or bag limits each year?

I guess in the end, if they don't address the captive breeding then there is always going to be a demand.

One taker told my friend he paid DPaW $15k in taking royalties recently... That's some decent money for such a small period too.


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## Tristan (Oct 25, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> *Tristan*,
> Based on care requirements alone, Rough-scaled Pythons are a Category 3 animal. However, the level of difficulty in caring for an animal is not the sole criterion used in determining its category.
> 
> The criteria for Cat 5 from the 2002 Regs: “Category 5 pet herpetofauna is fauna that the Minister considers
> ...



yeah cheers Blue, i have read and aware of how they classify the animals, but as you said its highly questionable, ok so the RSP is endangered, it will only take a couple of seasons to get enough breeding pairs in the keepers community producing enough offspring to stock the keepers with out the need for any more wild catches, and vola in a matter of a few years the endangered species becomes one that's got a healthy population again, sure its a bit more complicated than how i've dumb ed it down but essentially that's it lol.

i am glad new species have been approved and big kudos to those involved in making this happen.


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 26, 2013)

Jamie , I can't really see any licensed takers knocking over termite mounds looking for Pygmys considering how easy they are to find anyway by spot lighting. In winter it may tempt some people but I would be surprised if they are licenced takers. Being that they are cat 4 reptiles, offered for sale cheaply, the export ban and the fact that there are still not huge numbers of cat 4 licensed keepers, the market will be quite limited and the demand should be very quickly filled in the short term.


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