# Reptiles in NSW Pet Shops - The Debate



## pugsly (Sep 18, 2007)

OK. 

This is obviously a highly controversial issue. However one which will keep on popping up and will inevitably change (hopefully) in the near future. 

Personally, I think Reptiles DO need to move to Pet Shops, and more specific, Reptile shops. There are a number of them around already (Exotic Pets, The Reptile Shop etc) and to move this hobby forward change needs to occur. 

Now before I hear all the horror stories about Reptile shops interstate and the often terrible conditions some shops house there Reptiles. Let me first state that if this is to occur, it needs to be done correctly. The other states have led the way in providing an example of how 'not to' do things. 

I believe that with tight regulation, proper licensing, mystery shoppers assessing Fauna Dealers this can be achieved successfully. 

In the trade of birds for example, you can hold a Fauna Dealers license, issued a certificate etc etc, there is a list of approved species which are available to be traded by dealers which basically are species 'traditionally traded by keepers'. 

Well, why can't we come up with the same thing in the Reptile scene. 

Surely we can also come up with an approved list of the traditionally traded species and they should be able to be traded. 

Now, there are obviously pros and cons about this, and I would like to here all the cons. Because I will personally (if need be) work to come up with solutions to the cons. I think it is very managable. 

If dealers can hold Reptile Dealers Liceses. Be PERSONALLY responsible for the animals in the shops, with heavy fines for things such as: 

i) Improper advice 
ii) Unsanitory enclosure conditions 
iii) Sick or unhealthy animals 
etc etc 

Now this may just be creating more legislation sure, but there is not going to be thousands of these dealers liceses given out. I would expect there to be a rigorous application process before anything i handed out. 

So, whats holding us back. 

Well, $$ obviously, NPWS are at a strech as it is, and this would need funding to get off the ground. But this is not impossible. 

I have been looking at the legislation today (actually doing some legal work today lol) and I think that amendments to the Act can be made and be successful.


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## pugsly (Sep 18, 2007)

Section 124 of the NPWA 1974, states: 

“This licence authorises the person named above to exercise or to carry on the business of dealing in live protected birds of traditional aviary species of native parrots, cockatoos, finches, pigeons, doves and quail at the registered premises shown above.” 

Now.. 

Why can’t this be transferred across to read: 

“This licence authorises the person named above to exercise or to carry on the business of dealing in live protected Reptiles of traditionally traded species of native pythons, colourbrids, dragons, lizards, skinks, and monitors at the registered premises shown above.” 

But further: 

“The premises owner and/or manager takes full responsibility to the care, maintenance, and well being of all Reptiles held on license, at the named premises. The owner will comply with Section …. Of the Act which provides a list of the named species which may be held under the Reptile Dealers License. The owner will comply with the requirements as to housing, enclosure stock, licesing and advice as set out in the Reptile Dealers License Guidelines” 

Then, 

Why not draft up a series of guidelines written by our most experienced keepers to provide information to shop owners on set up and maintence of the Reptile coming through the shop. 

Each Owner who wishes to distribute Reptiles must have at least HALF the staff in store at any one time a Reptile Keeper License themselves. At no time will they be able to give dodgy advice, nor undertake in the sale of Reptiles to un-licensed persons. Nor purchase Reptiles from un-licensed persons. 

They key to stop this is the penalties, if they are pi$$ week, then it will fall to crap immediately, if they are strict as to actualy DETER this practice, then it can work. 

Each owner might have to be subject to 6 monthly inspections, with the possibility of mystery shoppers also. Also, the attaining of a Reptile Dealers License will require the applciant undertake a Course in the care of Reptiles, hell even sit a test or have practical ‘situations’ to see if they pass. Again, this means more funding, and for owner to actually WANT to go through this will be another thing. But it must be mandatory and consistent. 

I think this is all possible..


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## pugsly (Sep 18, 2007)

If we could come up with a 'Guideline' of sorts which covers things such as

1. Approved Species List - Snakes - Lizards - Monitors - Turtles and Frogs 
2. Housing Requirements - for each of the above 
3. Number of Stock to be allowed to be held at any one time 
4. Hygene and Health requirements 
5. Feeding 
6. Even a price chart so people arent going to be ripped off 
7. The selling or purchasing of Reps to un-licesed persons 
8. Required Inspections 
9. Penalties 
10. A signed contract by the applicant

Also address things such as handling in the store, escape proof enclosures. No elapids etc etc

NSW are being left behind because of stupid legislation which CAN and SHOULD be changed IMO.

I mean come on.. As if there aren't commercial breeding activities already going on, as if we all sell our 'excess' stock through solely the use of Herpetological Societies. THere are so many parts of the Act which are useless and out of date we NEED to change it.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 18, 2007)

I don't understand why people want reptiles in petshops, even with the strictest standards it encourages impulse buying, there is little if any quarantine, advice given out there is usually terrible and due to the need of a markup reptiles will always be cheaper from a breeder.


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## cement (Sep 18, 2007)

I'll be a mystery shopper.
Reptile workcover.


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## dickyknee (Sep 18, 2007)

I would not mind seeing them in shops , but ....
They should only be allowed for sale in a "reptile" shop , not your normal pet shop .
The person/persons selling must be a licenced breeder , not a 15 year old kid that has no clue about reptiles , as you find in most pet shops ( no offence if you are one of the few who have a clue ) .


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## gillsy (Sep 18, 2007)

piaa (pet industry association ..) are close this being done. However they are also complaining that private breeders shouldn't be allowed to be commercial for the same reasons we don't want then to be commercial. £ it will happen and is closer than people think. However as private breeders we also need to get in the ear of npws and tell then what we want. Or else they'll get all the say and the people breeding the reptiles will be left on the way side.


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## gillsy (Sep 18, 2007)

sorry about no paragraphs but i'm on a mobile phone that i cant put line breaks in.


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## dunno103 (Sep 18, 2007)

*Well here is a start to the no pet shop debate*

Hi Pugs

nothing personal just several points.

Birds are a more acceptable form of pet in mainstream society, I don't think that reptliles shouldn't be accepted it's just that Adam and Eve have given my fav's a bad name.

I said my fav's and believe that they should be restricted in some way. Currently you need to apply for a licence and then wait for it and then you may purchase an animal. Birds on the other hand can be bought on a whim, this is all species held in a pet shop even and Eclectus Parrot which do not eat much seed, they are a fruit eater, also lorrikeets are very pretty but a 6 year old's parents can buy a young varied and have no idea that it will shoot out liquid as poo.

Bird's do not need sunlight to survive nor do they need calcium for their bones (it is recommended but all of their essential requirements are given before a shopper can buy one)

Birds can become humanised and not recognise their own species, some even not desiring to mate when presented with the opportunity, but a reptile will never truly become humanised and will always be desiring a companion when it is the relevant time. (I have had some very very tame reptiles in my 28 yrs of experience)

Most of the birds that are on the freely traded list survive on a seed only diet, reptiles (and also birds in reality) need a varied diet that contains the necessary vitamins and minerals for their survival.

If they are allowed to trade then all employees must be liable to the same restrictions, otherwise it is easy to say an unknowledgable person is at fault.

Another con is most of us "old-timers" do not like the idea at all.

Thanks 

Steve


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## peterjohnson64 (Sep 18, 2007)

In NSW it is virtually impossible to make an impulse purchase unless you are ALREADY a licenced keeper. And then it is no different to going into APS, Petlink, RDU or even you rlocal herp meeting and making an impulse purchase.

Yes, many stores in Vic have terrible reputations. funny thing. The pet shops in NSW are telling the Govt that it is the breeders who are dodgy. Go figure! BUT.... we need to be diligent with the stores.

So are you telling me that if John Weigal or Troy Martin started selling herps in a shop their standards would drop? No, I would doubt it. So, firstly, we need to ensure that only COMPETENT people can run these stores. that means high licensing costs (to cover inspection staff) and fewer stores. GOOD! Its like high nite club entry fees - designed to keep the riff raff out. You are either keen to do it and pay through the nose for the priviledge or you dont.

As for the high price of reptiles in pet shops (and this form a man who paid $500 for his first pair of EWD's in 1997) I personally dont see that as an argument. If us breeders are allowed to advertise and sell commercially then the pet shops will have their work cut out to sell much stock if they are too dear. BUT... these people are trying to feed their families from the profit they make. I merely sell to pay for rats and parties.

And maybe a good quality reptile shop would merely have "display" stock and if you wanted an animal then it could be bought in for you. For example, Troy may have a hatchy diamond of mine on display. Someone says they want it but instead are told that one is not for sale but we can show you a similar animal tomorrow. They could even have a viewing room similar to what we had at mac herps.

Maybe the initial step for NSW to take is to offer "breeders" or "commercial" licences where we are allowed to advertise our animals and sell on a commercial basis. if that doens't work then we stay out of pet shops all together.

Oh, and please no one bring up the tax argument. The tax office couln't give a hoot whether your business is legal or not. If you are operating as a business then you pay tax. Whether that business is legal or not.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 18, 2007)

We have a price chart for birds so that for reptiles would be good. But breeders have to be willing to sell their reps to pet shops for less than what they're worth so pet shops don't have to put such high mark up on them.

And Pugs I like the idea of inspections but they have to be unannounced so dogdy ones don't hae a chance to put on a false front.

I am not in favour of pet shops having them but if its gonna happen I'll support anything that means the reps are well looked after.


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## scam7278 (Sep 18, 2007)

im with you dickyknee


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## cris (Sep 18, 2007)

IMO the queensland species list actually seem fairly sensible i would leave all geckos out of it though and include carpet species, gtf's and maybe some skinks that are easy to look after like sandswimmers.

IMO there should also be an advanced licence that is more heavily restricted, say maybe to ppl with atleast 5 years experience or something and have it open to all species.


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## dragozz (Sep 18, 2007)

I agree with junglepython 2. Impulse buying is a big problem and it happens with birds, dogs and pretty much any other pet, so without doubt it would also happen with reptiles. 

Quarantine is the same issue, pet shops don't usually quarantine their animals as this would bring in high costs for the facility and then the potential problem of treatment, which also costs money and loss of sales.

I think that in general, standards of knowledge and experience of sales people in pet shops are really low, not everywhere, but in a lot of cases. Many do not admit to not knowing anything about certain things but yet continue to sell. If a person that is just a novice is misinformed, the reptile is guaranteed to suffer. 

If pets, whether dogs/birds or reptiles are purchased from a breeder that has knowledge on particular species as well as experience, they are much more likely to end up in good homes where they will be taken care of with the guidance and instructions of that breeder. They can take right steps to properly care for the animal. 

Of course it would be nice to walk into a store and see some reptiles, but I think that if we look at all the problems that would arise from this, it would definitely not be beneficial for the reptiles in comparison to if they were sold by a breeder.


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## dickyknee (Sep 18, 2007)

Why not make first time / new owners of reptiles do a small course before purchasing , that way they will get the correct info and it will stop impulse buying IMO


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## dragozz (Sep 18, 2007)

I know that we are having a debate on selling reptiles in pet shops but *pet shops in NSW are already selling reptiles! *

All you have to do is get yourself a Reptile Keepers licence, do a course provided by the breeder or pet shop in the pet store and you can purchase your reptile from that breeder on the day after the completion of a course. When you book for a course you are provided with a list of available species and prices, you make a selection of the specie you want and pay for it on the day of the course and go home with a new reptile- from the pet shop.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 18, 2007)

peterjohnson64 said:


> ......I merely sell to pay for rats and parties.
> 
> And maybe a good quality reptile shop would merely have "display" stock and if you wanted an animal then it could be bought in for you. For example, Troy may have a hatchy diamond of mine on display. Someone says they want it but instead are told that one is not for sale but we can show you a similar animal tomorrow. They could even have a viewing room similar to what we had at mac herps.
> 
> ...




Absolutely agree with this. I would love to have my beautiful port mac diamond on display but just bring in animals as ordered.

And advertise on shop windows, I could handle that. Still not sure of my thouhts on reps in shops and I Own a pet shop. I have many enquiries every day of ppl wanting some type of reptile. I have a list behind my counter of ppl who have reps to sell, or breeder contacts. So the demand is there. I just not sure how to deal with customers because a normal buisness sells to make money. So what happens to the animals. I can't pick and chose who gets to buy the animals and that can lose money for my business. So i need more help in this area.


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## dragons75 (Sep 18, 2007)

Impulse buying ? well then for all first time purchases have a 3 week or so cooling of period.I have long believed that for our hobby to move forward the legal commercial sales of reps is needed .But i dont want to see any old pet shop flogging herps and dodgy info i think specialty stores are needed that are under the strictis conditions. A zero tolerance approach were a set of criteria is set out and has to be met to the letter or your permit to sell is revoked immediatley.


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## Jason (Sep 18, 2007)

it will happen soon. as peter said, impulse purchase wouldnt be that big an issue cause you need a license.
if someone came in and wanted a herp had a license etc....but NO setup... the shop doesnt have to sell them the herp


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## serenaphoenix (Sep 18, 2007)

dickyknee said:


> Why not make first time / new owners of reptiles do a small course before purchasing , that way they will get the correct info and it will stop impulse buying IMO



Dickyknee - 100% with you on this one - except i think it should be a complusory part of getting your licence in the first place - you should have to do some kind of course and at the very least pass a quick written test (like driver's licence) to prove you have some kind of clue...


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## Sdaji (Sep 18, 2007)

You need a license in Victoria, impulse buying is a big problem there. It's supposedly regulated, but the shops get away with murder, and the reptile specialists are usually the worst offenders.

If you're really keen about reptiles, you'll get them without shops. Shops will attract new people into the hobby, sure, but they'll be people who probably shouldn't be getting into it anyway. Other than providing a gap between breeders and pet owners, a massively increased opportunity for diseases and mites to be spread and the opportunity to buy animals which are subjected to extra stress at an increased price, pet shops have little to offer the average reptile keeper. I suppose the shop owners will have an easier time poaching and offloading lower quality animals to a typically less experienced market, and there is money to be made. Progress can't be stopped, it's probably going to happen. Hooray for economics!


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## dickyknee (Sep 18, 2007)

serenaphoenix said:


> Dickyknee - 100% with you on this one - except i think it should be a complusory part of getting your licence in the first place - you should have to do some kind of course and at the very least pass a quick written test (like driver's licence) to prove you have some kind of clue...




I agree 100% , all new license applications should be made to do a basic test , how many times do you see on here a new owner that asks a question like :my new snake is arriving tomorrow , what size cage should i put it in " or similar ..........


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## peterjohnson64 (Sep 18, 2007)

Not probably mate. I reckon it is a lot closer than the hobby realises. The sad thing from our point of view is that we have been totally left out of the negotiations and will be getting nothing like what we would want.

I see this in politics all the time. People are totally against something and end up getting the worst of what they wanted because of an unwillingness to compromise. We wil probably now get the worst situation from the hobby's point of view because for years we have merely said "no way" and have now been defeated by the policial and financial clout of the pet industry.


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## Sdaji (Sep 18, 2007)

There's nothing stopping the NSW herp groups from getting involved with drawing up the regulations if pet shops are to be introduced - they should demand to be involved and will have no problems with it.

I was involved with the Victorian system for years, it was a constant push from the shops to introduce more relaxed laws (which would more easily allow them to poach and make impulse sales). Saying "Yeah, okay, you can have what you want" was never going to help and neither will it in NSW. If the NSW herp groups are firmly against shops, you'll be able to keep them away, but clearly the NSW community is divided, which is a shame.

I've seen it happen, once they get their foot in the door they're just going to want more and more. Saying "if we're involved in getting the initial system in place we'll be able to make it better" makes no sense. You're just going to let them get their initial foot hold, and that's exactly what they need. Sure, a very small minority may actually do their best to run legitimate businesses, but the majority won't, and allowing a few people to make an honest profit by acting as middle men, bringing animals from multiple origins into a small space, housing them temporarily in high-traffic areas without quarantine, stressing them out before going out to news homes with owners who never knew their breeders/previous owners is no reason to allow the majority to get away with all of the horrors we see in Victoria - just take a look at some of the threads we've seen over the last few months and years if you want to know what to expect!


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## cris (Sep 18, 2007)

dunno103 said:


> Hi Pugs
> 
> nothing personal just several points. hey dunno, nothing personal just tearing your arguements to shreads
> 
> ...



The only valid point you made IMO was that reptiles are your favorites and you think they deserve more than other classes of animals. This is about the only good arguement ppl have against it(apart from those who want petshops completely banned). Sdaji, you should listen to this point even though i have probably debated this with you in about 10 other threads already :lol:

Like i have said countless times before having petshops being able to sell reptiles isnt the problem its the lack of law enforcement cracking down on dodgy shops that is to blame. I have never seen a shop with unhealthy reptiles without plenty the other animals being poorly cared for as well. Reptiles simply arnt any harder to look after than other classes of animals, many fish are far more difficult to keep... blah blah blah etc.


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## BJC-787 (Sep 18, 2007)

i have heard that it could happen as soon as the end of next year

i think if they put up a list of acceptable species, limit number that can be held at any one time, has to be someone working their that has knowledge of reptiles.

the impulse buying wouldn't be as bad as in other animal as you must already have a licence.


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## dragons75 (Sep 18, 2007)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Not probably mate. I reckon it is a lot closer than the hobby realises. The sad thing from our point of view is that we have been totally left out of the negotiations and will be getting nothing like what we would want.
> 
> I see this in politics all the time. People are totally against something and end up getting the worst of what they wanted because of an unwillingness to compromise. We wil probably now get the worst situation from the hobby's point of view because for years we have merely said "no way" and have now been defeated by the policial and financial clout of the pet industry.



Well let our voice be heard now Who would i contact to voice my opion ?And how do you spell opion ?


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## Sdaji (Sep 18, 2007)

Policing the shops doesn't work, just have a look at the Victorian pet shops, and no doubt some of the NSW pet shops which sell other animals. Getting the RSPCA involved hurts us even more, as it only gives them ammunition in their attempts to ban the private keeping of reptiles entirely. In the USA they are currently having huge battles with animal welfare groups which are pushing for tighter restrictions on reptile keeping, and in some areas they've been quite successful. At the recent reptile expo in Daytona there was a meeting where hundreds of people listened to some of the country's most well known and respected reptile people give what sounded like crisis talks about these animal welfare groups and the possibility of them putting massive restrictions on reptile keeping, and this is in a country where reptile keeping and selling in shops has been huge and mainstream for many years now. As we all know, watching what happens over there is a good way to predict what is just around the corner for us. When the government relies heavily on the RSPCA to take care of animal welfare matters, having them look after animal abuse in reptile specialty shops puts us in a very nasty predicament. In Australia, much more than over there, poaching and illegal exotics are very hot issues which are taken very seriously by the government, and these are the things shops are notorious for.

So, for all of these problems, what do shops have to offer us which makes the need so great? Stress for animals, quarantine issues, higher prices and profits for a small number of shop owners... great!


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## cris (Sep 18, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> So, for all of these problems, what do shops have to offer us which makes the need so great?



Simply getting more ppl into the hobby and changing reptiles from shovel/shotgun prey into something ppl see the same as normal animals. More power to the herp community to deal with those like the RSPCA, PETA and other similar scum. These group have increasing power as you can see from what you said about the US, think about how powerful reptile keepers are here compared to over there. Hey you are giving me ammo to argue against your points, thanks  

The simple fact is at the end of the day its not really any differant to selling fish in shops. All the same types of issues as with reptiles its just they have been considered mainstream for a long time. Its goin to happen anyway, might aswell try and work with it IMO. As more and more ppl have access to the internet and stuff the bad business that neglect stock etc. will lose out in the long run anyway.

You also like to bring up the issues of poaching and selling exotics, is there any evidence to suggest this doesnt take place on a similar level with private keepers? if its the same then its a bit hypocritical to want to ban one and not the other.


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## cris (Sep 18, 2007)

peterjohnson64 said:


> I see this in politics all the time. People are totally against something and end up getting the worst of what they wanted because of an unwillingness to compromise. We wil probably now get the worst situation from the hobby's point of view because for years we have merely said "no way" and have now been defeated by the policial and financial clout of the pet industry.



Yes this is a major problem with ppl, just like kids fighting over a toy either one gets it and the other cries or they rip it in half and fall on their as.


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## pugsly (Sep 18, 2007)

Im glad this thread took off, its not like an APS thread which is serious and relevant actually stay up in the view..

Sdaji, I dont agree with . "Shops will attract new people into the hobby, sure, but they'll be people who probably shouldn't be getting into it anyway"

Sure you will get people who probably shouldnt be involved, but I think it will be a great thing, and the only way the hobby will move forward. There is too much secrecy and ignorance about keeping reptiles, 99% have no idea you can even keep a Reptile, and thats the reason we are still stuck in the "A good snake is a dead snake" stage..

Pete, I am worried about your concern also, that what is being done will probably be done wrong, that there not getting the general herp community involved. If we can come up with a guide or regulations and put that to NPWS then lets damn well do it! Ive began drafting it anyway, worth a shot.

So I am glad it is happening, but I hope it is done properly. Offer Reptile 'Dealers' Licesing to a limited amount of people, subject to strict regulations and harsh penalties and I think it will work.


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## Sdaji (Sep 18, 2007)

Pet shops give the 'animal welfare' groups ammunition against us, here and over there. The type of person who is going to be very keen with their reptiles is going to find out how to do it, regardless of whether or not a shop is there shoving reptiles in their face. If someone needs a reptile shoved in their face in order to be convinced that they should keep one, they probably shouldn't be keeping it.

Reptiles and fish aren't the same thing. Incidentally, fish in shops have a very high mortality rate, I helped run an aquarium business for over ten years, I've seen fish in farms, wholesalers' warehouses, shops and of course, home aquaria. The death rate between each and at each stop in between farm and home is very high. The difference between a shop with a lot of dead fish on display and one with only live fish in the tanks is mostly to do with how quickly the dead ones are removed. Many fish have thousands of babies each, and it is just inevitable that even with the best efforts most will not survive. Fish and reptiles really aren't comparable, and there are some big issues with fish being in shops, but they're not the issue here.

Why do we need to have the attitude of "it's going to happen anyway, so let's help them along"? People are going to poach, people are going to steal, people are going to do all manner of bad things, that doesn't mean we should allow it. If it does come in it should only be because we were unable to stop it, and then we can work to make it as clean as possible. There is no reason at this point to say "let's introduce a system which is as clean as possible".

If you think that the internet will cause bad shops to lose business, you are quite naive (I don't say that in an insulting way, I mean it literally). Even after being charged with poaching, dealing exotics and having dead reptiles on display over a period of years, some shops still get a lot of high praise on this site. The shops which are utterly hideous still make a fortune, because having sick animals on display is a brilliant way to make sales - people try to 'save' the animals, so the store gets more in, neglects them, they are also 'saved' and the cycle continues. This is equally true with cats, dogs, fish, etc etc.

There is no doubt that a higher proportion of animals in shops than animals in private sales are poached. Yes, poaching is carried out by some private individuals, but knowing about what goes on in the Melbourne shops it utterly disturbing, and when you consider the ease of doing it when you have a commercial license, and the money there to be made, together with human nature, it isn't surprising. There's no reason to give them this opportunity.


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## pugsly (Sep 18, 2007)

Again, regulation is key.

There are ways to stop all the negative points which come out of this debate. All of them achievable. but not without funding, and certainly not if its not done properly in the first place.

So Sdaji your saying, bugger trying to influence it a little and making sure its done right, we will just sit back, let it come in and turn out like the fine examples in Melbourne?

Sure if someone really wants them enough they will find them, but the argument for 'impulse buying' is rubbish. As stated, you can't just walk in a buy one on the spot without the license. Well you might very well be able to but not legally.

The way to ensure this works, is to cover all bases before it happens.

I think the highest priority is Desease, the issue of Quarrentine is key for me. Perhaps we could stop shops purchasing from John Do who walks in with a snake he doesnt want anymore, and have some sort of approved list of sellers, I dont know. But this is why its up for debate.


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## -Peter (Sep 18, 2007)

whether pets shops can sell herps or not isnt the issue. it will happen. Its what we do to make sure we, keepers and breeders, dont get left in the cold like in Qld and WA. As the producers of the product and the holders of the primary rescourse we need to take control of the market and not have it dictated.
On the issue of illegalities- they aren't our concern. There is crime involved in the fringes of every legitimate industry. Crimes involving herps are the concern of the appropriate authorities and the criminals.


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## wokka (Sep 19, 2007)

We are having our selves on to think only pet shops do bad things with reptiles. I am sure youv,e all been offerred of license reptiles, seen poor standards of keeping and traumatised animals in private collections. If a commercial license costs serious money , say $50,000 and breach of conditions leads to forfeiting the license I think the holders would tow the line. Along with the dollars commercial applicants should demonstrate ability which will reatate to the period,variety and numbers of reptiles the license applicant and staff have kept. In todays world of technology it should be possible for commercial license holders to go on line and do some of the work for NPWS as far as tranfers advices etc which gives a real time record so there can be no doctoring of records later. This might free up NPWS staff to check shops although I believe the market will do that.


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## Colin (Sep 19, 2007)

-Peter said:


> whether pets shops can sell herps or not isnt the issue. it will happen. Its what we do to make sure we, keepers and breeders, dont get left in the cold like in Qld and WA. As the producers of the product and the holders of the primary rescourse we need to take control of the market and not have it dictated.




excellent point Peter


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

Yes, thats the point.

We NEED to be involved and not kept in the dark, but it seems its a little late..


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## aussiekev.n.s.w (Sep 19, 2007)

I have one thing to say how many people out there think that reptiles are missunderstood and unnecceraly feared? I think if reptiles where allowed to be sold in reptile shop's that it would help majourly in the fight to create a better understanding of these great animals to the general public


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## Lucas (Sep 19, 2007)

There is a BIG difference between a reptile shop and a pet shop. I would happily take in advice etc from exotic pets but I wouldn't trust a thing the kid in Bates pets told me.

I'm all for reptiles in shops but I feel that they need to be reptile specialist stores, not a bird and fish shop that wants to cash in on the growing popularity of reptiles. All in all, the pet store just won't have the knowledge or experience when it comes to reptile husbandry.

I've seen countless animals come out of pet stores with serious health issues that could have been easily prevented but due to a lack of knowledge and cutting corners they now have a tank of sick turts, twisted blueys etc. These stores then take $15 off the price and sell them off. Dust their hands of them.

As previously mentioned they should be regulated. 

If the operators of the shop can prove that they have the knowledge / experience / facilities to adequately care for these animals and that the staff have sufficient knowledge then let them go for it.

Let pet stores deal with puppies and kittens.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

Gillsy,

Can you pm any info about this pet industry association mob and who they are etc?

This isn't something that should be brought in without the concerns and issues out on the table first to get it right.

Its frustrating as all hell that whoever these people are are apparently the voice for the general herp community and its almost certain to fail. Whether once in stores or not. There are so many issues to consider and get out on the table for discussion. I think we need to be involved. 

There are several people here which should DEF be involved with this PIAA group, not only to ensure that it is done right, but to also keep us informed of what is going on..


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## Inkslinger (Sep 19, 2007)

Pet shops selling reptiles (which are high end priced animals) should be able to present a pedigree of some sort health certificate and they should be microchipped as mammals are now required to be in Pet shops in Victoria.
It amazes me that when buying a reptile I have nothing but the sellers word to go on as to blood lines!! Yet with my dogs, (Douge de Bordeux, Britch Bulldog, Mastiff, Jack Russells) I get not only the pedigree but a thourgh vet report.
In the past I have ask for history on the animal been refused, Vet check no way (so do it myself) 
In Vic there is a seven day cooling off period when you can return the animal without reason this of course is not advertised, and anyone making a purchase of a living creature, I would think would have a health check done within this time, saves heartbreak money and dissapointment in the long run.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 19, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Sure if someone really wants them enough they will find them, but the argument for 'impulse buying' is rubbish. As stated, you can't just walk in a buy one on the spot without the license. Well you might very well be able to but not legally.


 
So the kid that goes in to buy a another beardie and leaves with a pair of scrub pythons or GTS isn't impulse buying?


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## grimbeny (Sep 19, 2007)

I think somthing like the system currently employed by kellyville pets is more appropriate than outright over the counter sale of reptiles. I also like the idea of the store having display animals which are representative of the animals a breeder is selling and on sale the petstore would take commision. Over all i dont feel that any of these measures are necesary but as their is money to be made i am sure stores will push with their pockets to get legislation through allowing them to sell herps.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

No, I dont believe so.

Whats the difference between that and going through a for sale thread which has a number of animals, looking for a beardy, seeing a boyds and buying that instead? who here has looked at for sale threads knowing they want to buy 'something' but not sure what?

Look at SR how many people looked at those prices and immediately put an order in? plenty.

So whats the diff?


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## junglepython2 (Sep 19, 2007)

pugsly said:


> No, I dont believe so.
> 
> Whats the difference between that and going through a for sale thread which has a number of animals, looking for a beardy, seeing a boyds and buying that instead? who here has looked at for sale threads knowing they want to buy 'something' but not sure what?
> 
> ...


 
They don't see the animal in the flesh.

They don't have a saleperson pushing it down their throat.

Plus they can't get the animal on the spot they have to at least arrange a time, hopefully giving them enough time to at least get caging and basic husbandary needs sorted, or have a think about whether they really want and can care for the animal properly.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

So what!?

They still 'buy' it! As for salesperson pushing it down the throat, thats something for the 'guidlines' to cover. Make it easy for people to report dodgy shop owners, file complaints and it wont happen. Harsh penalties for people who are guilty of those practices.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 19, 2007)

Even if they buy it they still have time to get things sorted and the animal properly cared for.

Plus there are also harsh penalties in Vic, yet they never seem to be enforced.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

"Even if they buy it they still have time to get things sorted and the animal properly cared for."

Get things 'sorted' takes 5 minutes. I cant see a great deal of people just buyin a beardy or coastal without have anywhere to house it. Parents wont allow there kids too, and older herpers, why waste the money to leave it lying around the house!? Of course they will have a set up for things.

"Plus there are also harsh penalties in Vic, yet they never seem to be enforced"

Yes thats right, which is why VIC should be treated as a base for how NOT to do things. If this is going to happen, it needs to be done right. Other states have paved the way for providing a precedent on the malpractice of Reptile Dealing. NSW should use this experience and take it to a step above the rest. Show the other states how to do it and do it correctly.


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## junglepython2 (Sep 19, 2007)

I think it will take alot longer then 5min for a beardy owner to get things sorted for a coastal. Plus i have seen several people leave pet stores in melb with their first snake and no where to put it. Or have been sold the largest most expensive cage available for a hatchling childrens python.

But if NSW does allow it I hope your right in that you will use Vic as a base for how to not to do things, but with $$$ in involved and the pet traders being much more powerful then the keepers I can't see that happening.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

If these Reptile Dealer license's can go to Reptile Shop owners rather than Pet Shop owners it will help.

Those who have demonstrated that they have the experience and knowledge to be given the license. They certainly cant go to John Doe from Bills Pets etc etc..


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## cris (Sep 19, 2007)

One thing i have noticed is that the bulk of the problem appears to be in melbourne(never been to any shops there myself).

From what i have seen in qld reptile care in petshops is about equal to that of the other types of animals, it simply comes down to if the shop owners care about there animals, IMO plenty of them do. I also think the 2 reptile shops i know about in brisbane do a good job too. I also went to adelaide and found a few that were fairly good there too.

Sdaji, i did type a reply to your rant but my computer crashed and to be honest i dont think 95% of it is worthy of a reply.


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## nickamon (Sep 19, 2007)

peterjohnson64 said:


> In NSW it is virtually impossible to make an impulse purchase unless you are ALREADY a licenced keeper. And then it is no different to going into APS, Petlink, RDU or even you rlocal herp meeting and making an impulse purchase.


 
But APS, RDU, Petlink, herp socieities don't seem as visible as pet shops. I think it's good that you have to dig around a bit to find a breeder. I think that helps discourage impulse buying.

You're likely to get better advice from the breeder than from some teenager who works in a pet shops.


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

There are some crazy arguments being put forward here.

"We can't stop them, so let's encourage them". Well, by all means, if it is something we can't stop we should be involved in making it as good (or rather, as little damaging) as possible, but that's no reason to say we want shops to be allowed to sell.

"Private keepers do bad things too". Well duh! Of course they do, and that's not a good thing. The problem with shops is that it isn't even possible to do the right thing if you want to. Quarantine in a shop simply isn't even something you can begin to acheive. Few shops even bothering thinking about it, and those that do are wasting their time. There is no escaping the fact that the animals need to go through an extra move (which we all know can be disturbing for reptiles even at the best of time) and then held in a temporary enclosure with kids tapping on the glass, etc etc, for an indefinate period of time. Unless each enclosure is designed for one species only, and that enclosure is only ever used for that species (I don't think any pet shop in Victoria has even come close to doing this with their reptiles, and it isn't at all likely to happen), the enclosures are not set up with the species in mind, they are temporary holding bays of general design. There is no escaping the fact that in a business, there are financial pressures, and the animals are being treated as merchanidise on the shelf - liquid assets. Reptiles shouldn't be treated as 'stock', they are living breathing animals. I'm not saying it's bad for people to make money from them as long as they're well treated, but it's not appropriate to put them on the shelf as you would a packet of biscuits. The link between breeder and pet owner is lost, so if the new buyer wants contact with the breeder or previous owner to learn a bit about the particular quirks of that animal, see what the parents looked like, get some first hand husbundry advice from the guy who obviously knew what he was doing, well, tough, all you have is a shop hand, who at best knows about the general care of reptiles, but hasn't raised that individual animal, didn't see it hatch, didn't raise its parents, etc etc etc. Inevitably, this also leads to a loss of locality data on the animal - yes, details can be passed along, but in a shop environment with animals coming from all over the place, these get mixed up and lost, and if the situation is anything like we've seen in Victoria for many years, most of the historical information supplied about the animals will be lies.

Quarantine in particular is something which I am astonished to see someone say is a key issue they want addressed. You simply can not bring animals from a range of sources into one small room and have them all looked after by a number of different people in a small amount of time with members of the public wandering around and then sending them out between a day and several months later, and expect any level of quarantine at all to be in place, even with the best intentions and efforts of the store owners. This is simply impossible, and very, very clearly so. Quarantine requires that animals be kept in isolation for a period of months, in a separate room (preferably a separate building), with the keeper showing and washing their clothes after having anything to do with them. We're kidding ourselves if we think that it possible for a pet shop.

"Impulse buying still happens through internet ads". Hello? Do you have any sliver of a concept of human behaviour at all? Just a tiny bit? People go goo goo over animals, they see it in the flesh and temporarily "simply must have it". The reality of looking after it doesn't sink in until they have it home. This has been happening for as long as pet shops have been selling animals (longer than any of us have been alive). Sure, some level of impulse buying happens even with online ads, etc, but there is no comparison between seeing a picture on a classified site, having to contact the seller, then going over and visiting it, etc etc, and on the other hand seeing an animal up close for the first time and being able to take it home immediately. It's incredibly difficult to understand how some seemingly intelligent people can be so naive in this respect.

There is no reason to say that you can't oppose pet shops, but have a say in regulating them if/when they come in. That's just silly. The shops themselves won't want anyone putting any restrictions on them, and they'd just love to have you on side by fooling you into thinking that you're either going to support their efforts to get their feet in the door, or have no say at all and be forced to watch helplessly as they loot and plunder, but surely you're not stupid enough to be unable to see it doesn't work that way.

Similarly, it is just insane to think that you're going to be able to regulate pushy salesmen. Are you trying to turn this thread into a comedy? In the real world, regulations like that simply don't work, a lobotomised slug knows that.

It's interesting to see the different attitudes of people who have lived and worked with reptiles for over ten years in Victoria, and those in NSW. When you've seen what goes on, you're far more likely to be against them than if you don't know what to expect. 

Sadly, it seems people have their heels dug in, for some reason many people just want to ignore the lessons which can be learned from Victoria, and even the USA (no shortage of horror stories there either!). As always, the dollar will stand as more important than animal welfare, we need to push this industry along and become just like the Americans... why that is, I'm not sure, but there you go.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> I think it will take alot longer then 5min for a beardy owner to get things sorted for a coastal. Plus i have seen several people leave pet stores in melb with their first snake and no where to put it. Or have been sold the largest most expensive cage available for a hatchling childrens python.QUOTE]
> 
> This could cause issues and have pet stores stocked with animals they can't sell. And un-knowingly they could presume because a baby oscar should go into a 4' tank for healthy growth, then the same would apply with the reptiles.
> 
> But as a python keeper and a pet shop owner, least I have learnt, and still learning to offer correct advice and stocking my shelves with correct equipment. ATM I have a Baby Snake Nursery in stock for $90. It contains a plastic container from woolies, a little birthday box for a hide, heatcord, bowl, feeder tongs, thermometer, john Weigel's book Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity, & aristopet brand mite spray. Then my customers are happy to layby the bigger enclosures and we order it in for when they are ready to pick it up.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 19, 2007)

you don't know that Buck. That is what ppl want to see happen, but doesn't mean it is going to be that way.

i am still not sure what I think but if its gonna happen then I don't think pet shops should be completely left out. But they ought to be entitled to a different license and given more restrictions than a Specialist Reptile Shop, on what they are allowed to have.



> Originally Posted by peterjohnson64
> In NSW it is virtually impossible to make an impulse purchase unless you are ALREADY a licenced keeper. And then it is no different to going into APS, Petlink, RDU or even you rlocal herp meeting and making an impulse purchase.


This won't immune us against impulse buyers. There are plenty of irresponisble license holders, but it will to some degree keep out the show offs and big noters who want them but won't get the licenses. Not long back i practically had a customer throwing knives at me because I wouldn't find him a pair of olive pytyons while he stood there and told me the licenses are bull******* and he refuses to have anything to do with it.


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

If anyone wants to play a game, go into a pet shop and act stupid. Say you've just bought your license and want to buy your first snake, act excited, tell them you plan to keep it in an ice-cream tub under your bed and feed it crickets, or on top of the television (to keep it warm of course) and feed it dog food, or just tell them you don't know what you're doing but will work things out as you go along. The majority will be quite happy to sell them to you, more often than not they won't even offer advice, and if they do it will usually be no more than "you might want to learn a bit about how to keep them", but they'll still be happy for you to pay your money and walk out with a snake. Sounds strange? Don't believe me? Go to a few stores and try it!


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## Lucas (Sep 19, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> If anyone wants to play a game, go into a pet shop and act stupid. Say you've just bought your license and want to buy your first snake, act excited, tell them you plan to keep it in an ice-cream tub under your bed and feed it crickets, or on top of the television (to keep it warm of course) and feed it dog food, or just tell them you don't know what you're doing but will work things out as you go along. The majority will be quite happy to sell them to you, more often than not they won't even offer advice, and if they do it will usually be no more than "you might want to learn a bit about how to keep them", but they'll still be happy for you to pay your money and walk out with a snake. Sounds strange? Don't believe me? Go to a few stores and try it!



The reason behind my post


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## Colin (Sep 19, 2007)

What beats me is who in their right mind would even want to buy a reptile from a 'Pet Shop' in the first place. We don't have reptiles sold from them in NSW but at best I would imagine a suspect health animal of only average standard would be the best you could hope for. 

Especially when you can get top shelf quality from breeders. 

If someone that had OPMV or other nasty problems chose to offload some of his suspect stock, where is the most likely outlet? To sell privately and risk an even worse reputation than they probably already have? Or to dump it on an unsuspecting and inexperienced Pet Shop to distribute these diseases to every gullible purchaser and their collections. 

Unecessary risky business buying petshop 'quality' (imo) especially when we already have Petlink if we want garbage and to be ripped off


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## mysnakesau (Sep 19, 2007)

Well I know there are many rumours flying loose but i have heard that NPWS were going to restrict the number of licenses isssued for commercial trade, and those who do get it must first do husbandry training to qualify for the license. This wouldnt be so bad, but what happens when the shop owners have staff they haven't done this training, unless they make sure that a trained staff member is always there.


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

You're kidding, right? Pet shops are great! You can sell all of your dodgy stuff which you don't want your reputation attached to through them! Any hybrids, 'ugly' animals, anything with a bit of a defect... the breeders love them! You can't think that there aren't a lot of dodgy breeders around, surely. Poaching will be a big source of animals for the shops too, have no doubt. Plenty of 'good' reasons for people to have their motives for wanting the shops to come in... it's interesting to see some of the people who are pushing for them


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## junglepython2 (Sep 19, 2007)

buck said:


> At the end of the day if it is introduced and reptiles are allowed to be sold in pet stores, we as the breeders will have the power to regulate it through supply. If they don't lift their game then they don't get supplied livestock. Yes it will involve everyone sticking together to achieve it but it is definately possible to do.


 
Reptile breeders sticking together! I can't see that happening :lol:


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> Reptile breeders sticking together! I can't see that happening :lol:



C'mon! If there is one thing you can rely on it's the integrity of the Australian reptile community! No bad apples here! No one would even dream of exploiting an opportunity they saw! :lol:


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## mysnakesau (Sep 19, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> You're kidding, right? Pet shops are great! You can sell all of your dodgy stuff which you don't want your reputation attached to through them! Any hybrids, 'ugly' animals, anything with a bit of a defect... the breeders love them! You can't think that there aren't a lot of dodgy breeders around, surely. Poaching will be a big source of animals for the shops too, have no doubt. Plenty of 'good' reasons for people to have their motives for wanting the shops to come in... it's interesting to see some of the people who are pushing for them



Thanks a lot Sdaji  I'll remember not buy any off you for my shop then :lol: I don't want your ugly hybrids or your diseased off load. Deformities I could probably handle - they need someone to love them too. Not all pet shops are bad, mine isn't, anyway.


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## Inkslinger (Sep 19, 2007)

I have NEVER been asked once by anyone be it commercial breeder pet shop trading post petlink etc etc if I knew what I was doing could house it feed it care for it. Only questions asked MONEY LICENCE DETAILS and I am talking 20 years plus here!!

Nor was I ever encouraged to keep in touch or communicate other than if I wanted to purchase again, all a bit Hypocritical IMO


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## cris (Sep 19, 2007)

Colin said:


> What beats me is who in their right mind would even want to buy a reptile from a 'Pet Shop' in the first place. We don't have reptiles sold from them in NSW but at best I would imagine a suspect health animal of only average standard would be the best you could hope for.
> 
> Especially when you can get top shelf quality from breeders.



This is a fairly sheltered view, just because you can buy straight from top breeders the average kid probably doesnt even know that ppl breed snakes for a living. 

I have bought reptiles from both a petshop and a reptile shop.
With the petshop i bought turtles at a higher price at a time of year when i didnt know of anyone that would have any locally. They gave me a good detailed 3-4 page caresheet and didnt even try to sell me crap. I have also bought turtles from a top breeder got very little advice and had them die. It is completely MY fault just as probably 99% of reptile deaths are completely the fault of their owners and poor husbandry to put the blame on the seller is simply a weak cop out(unless it has existing health issues).
I also got a beardy from a reptile shop and dont have any complaints apart from it being about $10-20 more than a breeder would charge in a private sale(it even came with a free vet check that i didnt use because vets in general have far poorer quarantine than any petshop, perhaps they should be banned lol).


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## Colin (Sep 19, 2007)

Sdaji said:


> You're kidding, right? Pet shops are great! You can sell all of your dodgy stuff which you don't want your reputation attached to through them! Any hybrids, 'ugly' animals, anything with a bit of a defect... the breeders love them! You can't think that there aren't a lot of dodgy breeders around, surely. Poaching will be a big source of animals for the shops too, have no doubt. Plenty of 'good' reasons for people to have their motives for wanting the shops to come in... it's interesting to see some of the people who are pushing for them





:lol: at Sdaji 

when I used to breed exotic & aussie parrots years ago thats exactly what most bird blokes did, sell the shonky second rate stuff through shops but the good stuff themselves. No one with half a brain would buy pet shop quality at any price. 

Personally I think that with animals that are not up to scratch for some reason (and everyone gets them) its better to give them away for free (like the old days) to someone or a kid that can't afford them but is dirt keen and appreciates getting something that they normally wouldn't have. 

I reckon thats the go personally, sell all the great animals ourselves privately, and the few that may be slightly flawed (but not sick) give them away to some keen kids for free or for just freight cost. Its a good thing and keeps the money out of these shady pet shops pockets :lol:

That kid will one day also come back and want to buy from the person that gave them a hand  
Give the Petshops squat as far as animals goes. And don't spend any money with them


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## cris (Sep 19, 2007)

Plenty of reptile stores breed a portion of there own stock and source quality animals to hold up their reputation. The arguements against it only ever look at the worst examples and fail to see that there are plenty around that arnt that bad even if they are the minority why should they have to suffer because of the bad ones?


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## mysnakesau (Sep 19, 2007)

There are plenty of good pet shops around Colin who look after the animals better than backyard breeders. I for one, take my puppies home every night. but i can tell one thing, the majority of puppies that I buy are dirty, flea bitten, full of worms and had no care what so ever. No needles, nothing. And you blame the pet shops for that??? As Sdaji has said, they get palmed off to pet shops and the breeders take no responsibility at all. I have a hydrobath, and the day puppies come in they are bathed, wormed, I give them capstar flea tablets and booked in for their needles. They look a million dollars when I am finished with them. And i am sure you can find plenty more pet shops around who take just as good care of their animals as what I say I do. My fishtanks are always spotless, my pets are given fresh food and always clean and looked after. Its the minority such as the likes of horror stories I've heard of pet shops selling sick animals, that give the rest of us a bad name.

I know i can say no to poor quality animals but at the end of the day, those animals need homes too. My pet hate, though, is seeing overcrowded cages. If pet shop keepers were able to say "no more" then maybe they'd do a lot better.


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## Ramsayi (Sep 19, 2007)

mysnakesau,if you currently sell reptiles what quarantine procedures are in place?If you have visions of selling reptiles in the future what quarantine procedures would you implement?


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## Ramsayi (Sep 19, 2007)

...


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## Colin (Sep 19, 2007)

cris said:


> Plenty of reptile stores breed a portion of there own stock and source quality animals to hold up their reputation. The arguements against it only ever look at the worst examples and fail to see that there are plenty around that arnt that bad even if they are the minority why should they have to suffer because of the bad ones?



I did not mean stores that breed their own animals. that is an entirely different setup and basically a breeder. I have no problems with setups like URS etc that do have some great stuff available. What I meant was Pet Shop that only buys stock from others and have questionable hygene protocols in place. maybe I should have chosen my words my carefully.

we dont have any reptile pet shops in Sydney and I dont really know what other states shops are like. 

But no offense to people on here that own petshops, but my personal experiences with Pet Shops in general has never been that great.


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## Inkslinger (Sep 19, 2007)

Bottom line if you breed in any quantity it is all about MONEY


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

Good arguments here.

Sdaji, your so passionate about them not coming in, well it doesnt matter. They are. When you accept that maybe you can help those who want to get it right, or as right as possible to ensure it doesnt follow in the footsteps of other states.

Im sick of hearing the 'dodgy pet shop owner' etc etc, these people HOPEFULLY wont be the ones with the licenses at all. If they can make it extremely difficult, there wont be any of them. But seen as though we are all being kept out of the loop who knows what is going on.

As for quarentine, yes it is my biggest concern by far. Why wouldnt it be, people have listed why, people who could have OPMV offloading etc etc. So how to stop that?

Well if I am a Reptile Dealer why would I even PURCHASE any animals to sell off Joe Bloggs, especially if I have and probably WOULD have a collection at home which could be at risk. I would no doubt be selling my OWN animals. But again, there is plenty of loopholes.

The sooner we get over the winging that they are going to come in and start planning for HOW they will come in the better. Arguing about why they shouldn't be is useless at this stage. Trying to come up with solutions for the best way to implement is the idea.

One suggestion, why not keep it to lizards to begin with. Very minimal chance of spreading desease, OPMV and IBD are not a concern, perhaps mites, ticks etc but that is managable. If it is successful, then move onto the next stage.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 19, 2007)

Well said Pugs. 

In regards to quarantine, i agree that its a huge issue, not just in pet shops though. But even if you buy from a breeder or a pet shop you should have your own quarantine measure in place rather than waiting for something to wrong and then finding someone else to blame. 

I am very picky who I buy my snakes from. i prefered to pay $800 for my jungle from Southern X rather than pay $450 to Joe Bloggs because I am more confident of receiving better animals and in good health. there are many snakes advertised on the forums that i want, but am prepared to wait for friends snakes to grow up and breed simply because I trust the heatlh of their animals over someone I don't know.

One thing that could help in this relation is that pet shops buying in reptiles find themselves a reputable source or more, and lock into a contract & have no choice but to say no to the unknown strays.


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## Miss B (Sep 19, 2007)

I've never purchased anything other than fish from a pet store, but I still think there are good ones and bad ones. My local pet store sells beardie hatchlings, but one of the girls who works there actually breeds them herself.


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## mattmc (Sep 19, 2007)

i wouldnt mind them in shop as long as there is strict regulations and someone who fortnightly atleast checks the store aswell as mystery buyers. all the staff should have a reptile license and price should be fair. the shop should only sell reptiles and frogs(no elapids) and husbandry equip etc. all liceneses would be needed buy buyers on day of purchase and only class 1 animals should be sold. there should be diff people for monitors, dragons, skinks, pythons etc and to get a job there, a person would have to do a course etc. and of course all the enclosures would need to be cleaned daily (like everyone here should do) and people would need to wash hands between herps for obvious reasons. if all that was followed i would go to one. this would boosts popularity and more and more people would start to care for wildlife and want to help make a difference. now this is just my opinion but i stand by it and noone will sway my vote.
cheers 
matt


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## mysnakesau (Sep 19, 2007)

mattmc said:


> i..... there should be diff people for monitors, dragons, skinks, pythons etc and to get a job there, .....cheers
> matt



mostly sounds good Matt but are you going to pay the wages for all these different ppl? The more expenses businesses have to pay on wages, insurances, etc. the less they have to put into their animals.


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Good arguments here.
> 
> Sdaji, your so passionate about them not coming in, well it doesnt matter. They are. When you accept that maybe you can help those who want to get it right, or as right as possible to ensure it doesnt follow in the footsteps of other states.
> 
> ...



You think you can't stop them, but can limit them to lizards only?

How to stop people from offloading dodgy animals? You can't. You say "If successful then more on to the next stage" and you are raving on about the 'benefits' of shops, clearly you are 'pro-shop', not just wanting to limit the damage.

I am quite happy to acknowledge that NSW will probably bring shops in, I've been saying it for years. It's not because it is simply something which couldn't be stopped, it's because there is a lot of money driving people to start propaganda campaigns, people being fooled into thinking it can not be stopped, and people not understanding what they are getting into.

Okay, if you're serious about making it "good", push for regulations saying that all animals must be quarantined for six months before being sold, in a room in which during that time no other animals are introduced, and the obligation of proof that it is happening resting on the shop owners. Enforce a two week cooling off period for all sales. Make the previous owner's contact details available to the purchaser. Clearly, even those three things aren't possible to enforce and certainly won't be agreed to, but they're necessary for a shop to be 'good'.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

"You think you can't stop them, but can limit them to lizards only?"

It was a simple suggestion..

"How to stop people from offloading dodgy animals? You can't. You say "If successful then more on to the next stage" and you are raving on about the 'benefits' of shops, clearly you are 'pro-shop', not just wanting to limit the damage."

Yes I am pro shop, but pro REPTILE shop. Not pet shop.

"push for regulations saying that all animals must be quarantined for six months before being sold, in a room in which during that time no other animals are introduced, and the obligation of proof that it is happening resting on the shop owners. Enforce a two week cooling off period for all sales. Make the previous owner's contact details available to the purchaser"

All super ideas. Thats what I want to here.

"those three things aren't possible to enforce and certainly won't be agreed to, but they're necessary for a shop to be 'good'"

I disagree, I think they ARE possible to enforce, and if they are nto agreed to then hey, they dont get the Dealers license. I concur, there all necessary, and this is what I am talking about. This isn't something, a decision that should be made behind the general herping communities back. I think we should be involved, to address these issues before we go down the same path as interstate.

I dont think this should be something just just gets decided and bam, you can buy a diamond from ya local. Its something that should be completely openly discussed, with as many issues as possible addressed, then the whole process implemented slowly. If it fails, there is cases of OPMV reported etc etc. Scrap it.


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## -Peter (Sep 19, 2007)

How about pushing for pet shops to come under the same rules as Exhibition license holders.


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## mattmc (Sep 19, 2007)

well what i really ment is the people dealing the animals have to have had past experience with each type. sorry if you misunderstood it wasnt the best wording.
matt


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## benson (Sep 19, 2007)

Well, I am NOT a pet shop, we ONLY do reptile supplies, and have been open nearly 4 years.
But I worry about too many people buying all these reptiles, not knowing too much, then in a few years time, finding out they are growing too large, or are too much work. What I'm trying to say is look at all the pounds, and how MANY dogs and cats are put down EVERY year. I do think this is a worry, and would HATE this to happen. I think the system works OK now, and if the law does change, I think I will still just stick to selling the supplies ONLY.
Shops are NOT all about money, at least NOT ALL SHOPS!!!


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## grimbeny (Sep 19, 2007)

"push for regulations saying that all animals must be quarantined for six months before being sold, in a room in which during that time no other animals are introduced, and the obligation of proof that it is happening resting on the shop owners. Enforce a two week cooling off period for all sales. Make the previous owner's contact details available to the purchaser"

Surely u cant see this as feasable in fact its extremely obsurd. What pet shop where hourse whatever could fit a room for every single animal.


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

pugsly said:


> "You think you can't stop them, but can limit them to lizards only?"
> 
> It was a simple suggestion..
> 
> ...




Why do you think that reptile only shops are going to be shining lights of honesty and integrity? Some of the worst cases of incompetence, dishonesty and neglect this country have seen have been in 'reptile only' stores. Reptile specialists are the ones who generally know most about reptiles (although we've seen some shocking exceptions! Remember that woman who ran a store with just reptiles and on this site proudly boasted about her methods, which anyone with any experience with reptiles knew would kill them?), and they also are the ones best able to poach, and understand the reptile system well enough to know how to break rules without being caught.

A reptile shop _is_ a pet shop. They are not somehow magically immune from all of the pet shop problems.

How can you enforce the six month quarantine rule? Without having a government official standing watch, how is that possible? The best you could hope for is that the animal is _held_ for six months before being sold, not quarantined. Let's face it, even that would make it impossible for a store to turn a profit, but hey, we "need" shops, so since it's not possible, I assume you're going to be happy for them to do away with a quarantine period, or reduce it to a useless week or two, and even then, unless inspectors came out every week or two and photographed each animal (which would be prohibitively expensive), the shops would have no trouble holding a token few animals in a quarantine room, saying that the one on display had been quarantined for two weeks/six months/period x before going out there. Even with the best intentions (which very rarely exist), to do it properly is literally impossible, which is why shops are bad - the very concept is flawed.

It's laughable that you think the shops could be banned after they've come in if cases of OPMV etc came up. At the moment, people are using the ridiculous argument of "Why should some people lose out because others may abuse the system?" - no one in NSW currently runs a shop, so they are not losing out! Once the shops come in, there will be people who do rely on them for income, and there will be no way to get rid of them. It's not something you can look back on and say "Oops! We made a mistake, let's turn around now".


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## grimbeny (Sep 19, 2007)

I think the system is great at the moment, if u really want to grow the industry etc. Make people aware of the system, advertise and hold more reptile expos etc.


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## benson (Sep 19, 2007)

YES!!! I am not even allowed to have a board of reptiles for sale.
It would be GREAT to have a couple in the shop, NOT FOR SALE, just for people to see.
And a place for BREEDERS to advertise.


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> I think the system is great at the moment, if u really want to grow the industry etc. Make people aware of the system, advertise and hold more reptile expos etc.



People may or may not have noticed, but it's _already_ growing at a phenomonal rate, and you don't need to be a genius to understand that it can only grow for so long. Pushing for a massively increased rate of growth is just going to make it plateau sooner. Once the plateau comes, we'll start seeing snakes being given away and sold for trivial prices. Snakes can only be produced at a certain rate, and with too rapid an increase in demand, the slack is taken up by poaching (this is currently happening on a massive scale in Australia). With the increase in the number of morphs away, hopefully we'll have albinoes and such being dumped, rather than animals which might survive and cause problems. It would also be great if morphs are more mainstream as the industry really kicks on, as if people are not wanting a wild type snake, poaching is not an issue. At the moment, albinoes and other 'extreme' morphs are still rare in this country, so the type of thing which can be poached is still very appealing on the pet shop shelf.

So, even if it is impossible to prevent shops coming in (which it isn't, as long as people are united), the longer it is delayed the better.

Incidentally, as many people know, I am not a big fan of morphs at all, but with the industry going the way it is, I think they're going to be essential in protecting wild reptiles in this country.


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## zulu (Sep 19, 2007)

*re Reptiles*

Mmmmm sadji,ime starting to think it may not be a good thing to sell reptiles in petshops,the NPWS will go for the bucks and give out dealers licenses to any one that can come up with the money and we may have to get a breeders or farmers license and onley sell to dealers.Please dont give any more work to the paltry staffed hurstville office they are busy trying to process my pathetic import license for one of Tim Mensforths beardys,maybe they are making me a gold plaque c ertificate or something,HAhA another 20$$,tell me they arnt about making money and making more work.Dont get me wrong,the few people they have working at the Nats hurstville office are nice people in their own way,and i used to watch skippy n stuff.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

Mate your still carrying on like its not going to happen. Why bother typing 8 paragraph long comments on the reasons it shouldnt be allowed WHEN IT WILL BE.

Again, work WITH it and help make sure ONCE it is introduced, it works. Arguing back and forth is just a waste of typing at this stage.


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## pugsly (Sep 19, 2007)

Im not saying I have the solutions to the problems that are likely to occur WHEN it happens. What I am saying is why cant we discuss them, get them on the table, and work out ways to solve them, before they happen.

I am 1 person. My ideas are not going to change anything, nor have I ever stated they are the right options, you can continue to disect my arguments all you like, I welcome it as you are so opposed by it, it shows the 'other' side. 

When you accept this IS going to happen, perhaps you and all the other opposers can band together and help to make it happen correctly. Or, you can sit back and say 'I told you so' which helps nothing.


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## Sdaji (Sep 19, 2007)

pugsly said:


> When you accept this IS going to happen, perhaps you and all the other opposers can band together and help to make it happen correctly. Or, you can sit back and say 'I told you so' which helps nothing.



Perhaps you are illiterate and the person reading my posts to you is skipping some lines, or perhaps your memory is just very short... I have been saying for years that it is going to happen, I have said it in this thread at least twice. If everyone got up and said no, right now, it would be possible to stop it, but that's not going to happen, I know that. The best we can hope to do is delay it.

I worked for years on a committee, having a direct impact on the rules in Victoria. I've done more than most on this site in terms of being involved in the issue. Opposing it every step of the way is going to serve you best. The necessary rules to make pet shops "good" are not possible to bring in. I've never been a resident of NSW and in my current position am not likely to have any direct impact on the regulations there. If the powers that be wanted to consult me when the regulations were being drawn up I'd be happy to be involved, but right here, we're just a bunch of reptile keepers chatting on a forum


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## addy (Sep 19, 2007)

I think in the hands of a licenced propriater and staff, reptiles should be on display in pet shops. Even if they are not for sale. I don't see any harm in that. 

There are alot of fish out there that are very hard to look after, and people with good advice on them can be few and far between. But you'll still see them in pet shops. Reptiles are protected and all. So all you need is regulations, not a law that states "reptiles may not enter a pet shop". 

And the term "pet shop" is up for interpretation too. If i have an ABN, a buisness name, a garage on my property, that people can come and buy pets. Is that not a pet shop? or does a pet shop need a shop front to count? 

And as for this just being a forum..why doesn't APS write a letter to the state goverment with all our signatures (all in favour) as well as signatures collected from reptile expo's. Or we could just sit behind our pc screens and share our opinion to each other..then this will just be a fourm.


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## BJC-787 (Sep 19, 2007)

at the moment we get so many people come into the pet shop i work in and ask if we sell reptiles and we say no and it is handy to have a npws office just up the road and we tell the people that they need a license to keep them and to go up and see the npws and get some info on them, i have also done up a care sheet for pythons that we give out to people that are interested and it tells them everything they need to know and need before they get started.


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## wokka (Sep 20, 2007)

I am wondering if we should ommit the word pet shop from the argument, its so emotional. Is the real question wether NSW should allow public advertising and dispay of reptiles for sale? There are good and bad motor mechanics, pet shops and uni students. I think you have equal chance of doing a "good " deal with all sectors. The current system only keeps the sales under the table. Eventually sale of retiles will have to "come out" to the NSW community.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 20, 2007)

I am with Pugsly. What's the point complaining about it happening. Its going to happen. We should be discussing how we can make it better for the animals & the pet shops. Its obvious there are many who hate pet shops but there are ones around that strive to do the right thing. We need to support them rather than filling them up with negatives about why they shouldn't have them. You won't have a choice, they are going to get them whether you like it or not. Puglsy's original thread was asking about ideas on how we can create a better standard so the reps are looked after properly. 

Limiting how many they can keep would be a start. If quantities are restricted there is less chance of overcrowding which I've read to be a problem with a lot of stores.


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## dragozz (Sep 20, 2007)

Look the fact is, we can purchase reptiles from pet shops already- if you have a licence, if you do a course at the pet shop, you can purchase a reptile at the pet shop from the breeder that runs this course on the day. Yes, this is in Sydney. I don't think any more needs to be done. 

Courses at this stage run every 2 weeks, it gives people time to settle down and think about things also before jumping into buying an animal they might not want in a week or two


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah thats fine, but wouldn't you rather them on display?

Ive been in at Troys shop several times, and so many people come through the doors and expect to see something there. (On display) the amount of times he has to explain 'No, there illegal to be ....... blah blah blah, he might as well have a tape recording. Then the potential customer goes, oh, ok, and walks out the door.


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## Sdaji (Sep 20, 2007)

Careful pugsly, you're letting your alterior motives show :roll:


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## aussiekev.n.s.w (Sep 20, 2007)

just something that i think is funny the main argument is bewtween an egg and a pentioner not that im saying either should no more it just seems funny anyways have a good 1


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

Sdaji is no egg..

Mate, I have no alterior motives at all. I can understand its frustrating as all hell for owners who specialise in Reptile products to have to keep saying that to people. And yes lose business, who are we kidding of course its about business for them.

But that is not the reason behind my support for it. It is one of them sure, but I am not going to go back over the others which I have already named.

I am happy to agree to disagree here, you dont want them, I do, no drama with me at all. It just seems you dont want to accept it IS going to happen.


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## Sdaji (Sep 20, 2007)

pugsly said:


> It just seems you dont want to accept it IS going to happen.



:lol:

So which is it? Illiteracy or a poor memory? :lol:


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## dragozz (Sep 20, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Yeah thats fine, but wouldn't you rather them on display?
> 
> Ive been in at Troys shop several times, and so many people come through the doors and expect to see something there. (On display) the amount of times he has to explain 'No, there illegal to be ....... blah blah blah, he might as well have a tape recording. Then the potential customer goes, oh, ok, and walks out the door.



ye its a potential only, so if they really want a reptile I'm sure they will look into it so no loss there really. Also if they only go oh ok, then they aren't really looking at buying a reptile.


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

lol

I am well aware you have KNOWN it was going to come in, but you keep going on and on and on about why it shouldnt, whats the point? Again, it seems to be you can't accept it IS.


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't see how this effects you anyway. If you were so 'heavily' involved with this stuff in Melbourne, why is it shambled down there?

It has been proven it can work in QLD, sure there is some issues, but there is issues with John Doe selling to Bob from next door too.

As a now 'Queenslander' why are you so upset with it happening? Do we as herpers need to keep to the back alleys and Maccas Car parks forever do we?


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## Tiliqua (Sep 20, 2007)

> Other than providing a gap between breeders and pet owners, a massively increased opportunity for diseases and mites to be spread and the opportunity to buy animals which are subjected to extra stress at an increased price, pet shops have little to offer the average reptile keeper. I suppose the shop owners will have an easier time poaching and offloading lower quality animals to a typically less experienced market, and there is money to be made. Progress can't be stopped, it's probably going to happen. Hooray for economics!


 


> I worked for years on a committee, having a direct impact on the rules in Victoria. I've done more than most on this site in terms of being involved in the issue. Opposing it every step of the way is going to serve you best.............If the powers that be wanted to consult me when the regulations were being drawn up I'd be happy to be involved,


 
I don't mean to be rude, but if you tried your best to sort out Victorian regulations and it didn't work, then why would a board of NSW retailers consult you in regards to regulations?
The general feeling is NSW keepers would like to see stricter rules when reptiles come into shops than our Victorian counterparts.
Cheers
Tiliqua


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## ozianimals (Sep 20, 2007)

dragozz said:


> Look the fact is, we can purchase reptiles from pet shops already- if you have a licence, if you do a course at the pet shop, you can purchase a reptile at the pet shop from the breeder that runs this course on the day. Yes, this is in Sydney. I don't think any more needs to be done.
> 
> Courses at this stage run every 2 weeks, it gives people time to settle down and think about things also before jumping into buying an animal they might not want in a week or two


 
You are not buying your reptile from a pet shop you are just picking it up at that location and it still is against the law in NSW to have that animals inside the premises of any business. You are buying off the breeder this is not buying from the pet shop.

I buy my reps at the pet shop when the breeder I use goes to the shop.
All of the deal is done out side the store as he does not want people knowing where his reps are kept, and the store owner knows his responsabilities and will not let it happen on his premises. Thats where I meet most people in to reps as I'm not part of any herp societies or anything.

As for whos arguing with who, the original post was asking for cons which means arguing against the idea. If all you want is suggestions of how we can get this happening,(which I don't) you shouldn't be asking for the cons but just solutions to the cons.

I think that if you are wanting a reptile they are very readily available without needing pet shops/commercial breeders/wholesalers to get all but the uncommon types of reps and the reptile shops in NSW know who to see to put you on the right path. I would rather pay a keeper $1000.00 for an animal than pay a reptile shop $1400.00 so they can make money for an animals that is only worth $1000.00 as shops have over heads they need to consider plus feeding, registering with the nswnp that the animals has been purchased by them and then sold by them.

The other issue I see is that according to nswnp you are supposed to trade your reps not sell or buy them.
A pet shop will never agree to this type of trade.


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## cris (Sep 20, 2007)

I think it should be clear by now that Sdaji isnt going to contribute anything useful to this thread. Its a shame really as he has an insiders view on the worst system in Australia.


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

"you shouldn't be asking for the cons but just solutions to the cons."

I asked for the cons, so then we could work out solutions to the cons.

"The other issue I see is that according to nswnp you are supposed to trade your reps not sell or buy them."

Correct. Thats what I am arguing we need to change.

"I think that if you are wanting a reptile they are very readily available without needing pet shops/commercial breeders/wholesalers to get all but the uncommon types of reps and the reptile shops in NSW know who to see to put you on the right path. I would rather pay a keeper $1000.00 for an animal than pay a reptile shop $1400.00 so they can make money for an animals that is only worth $1000.00 as shops have over heads they need to consider plus feeding, registering with the nswnp that the animals has been purchased by them and then sold by them."

This is interesting. Roy Pails sells his at the same price breeders do? Tim from URS also? Amazing. Do they breed there own, sure, but they also purchase from a HEAP of people for bugger all. I know plenty of people who offload there stock to them for very cheap deals, for a number of reasons. They dont need to sell a Carpet for $1000 when they will probably readily be available to purchase from large breeders looking to move stock on for $100 or cheaper.

Im not conerned with the prices in Pet Shops. As for people who want them being able to find them, sure. No argument there, its a fact. But so what? Does that mean because we all know There is a footy semi on this weekend we don't need to see any advertising?

I loved snakes for YEARS before I ever found out I could actually legally own one. It was only through a friend I became aware then did my own research and found these forums. Awareness is also the key, sure if you like them you might find them online, herp societies, but this isn't just about the people who want to KEEP them.

For me its also about changing the whole identity and awareness of our Reptilian friends, if they come into shops, those 99% of the community who have no idea about Reptiles, consider a good snake a dead snake, can learn more about them, perhaps even like them, and change there perceptions of them. They tell a friend who tells a friend etc etc. For me this = less herps getting killed because they don't know what type of snake it is, less injured wildlife left for dead as people will learn who to call, or be able to identify what it is etc.

I'm sick of the hobby being hiden under a rock, people look at you like your a freak when you tell them you keep snakes etc, well thats no skin off my nose, but frankly Im over it, we have nothing to be ashamed of, and the more people who become interested the better IMO.

There is you 'alterior motive' mate.


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## grimbeny (Sep 20, 2007)

If ur right pugs and they do permit the sale of reptiles in nsw in the near future I really do hope it is done properly but i cant see this as being likely. It isnt really the role of the npws to ensure animals are treated with dignity nor is it their role to slow the spread of diseases such as OPMV. The npws's role is to preserve the natural wildlife out there, ie ensuring animals are not illegaly collected etc. They will not have the funds or resources to monitor the pet industry closly. Even if they do charge 20K (which i cant imagine any petshop affording, like seriously who could make anymoney of reptiles if u had those kind of overheads) Resources and legislation will not ensure each animal is cared for appropriatly. Quarantine is impossible with the sale of reptiles in petshops.


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## aussiekev.n.s.w (Sep 20, 2007)

quote" For me its also about changing the whole identity and awareness of our Reptilian friends, if they come into shops, those 99% of the community who have no idea about Reptiles, consider a good snake a dead snake, can learn more about them, perhaps even like them, and change there perceptions of them. They tell a friend who tells a friend etc etc. For me this = less herps getting killed because they don't know what type of snake it is, less injured wildlife left for dead as people will learn who to call, or be able to identify what it is etc.

thats what i said about 3 pages back lol


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

Lol Sorry mate..


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## natrix (Sep 20, 2007)

Lots of good points being made , pro & anti .
I think it'd only be viable if it was a pretty big operation. Could you sell enough reptiles to make it
a viable business while still maintaining strict quarantine conditions?
I think it'd be great if a group like the new 'pilbara/trueblue team could open a shop front to deal
from . And although it's pretty easy to find your way into finding/buying ya first snake , I'm sure
there are a lot more people that'd get into it if it was presented in a shop-like way--creating more
awareness & business for all breeders.
Some people just wouldn't want to meet a guy at a petrol station to do a clandestine transaction. .


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## cris (Sep 20, 2007)

I have been to a fair number of private keepers houses to buy reptiles only one wanted me to wash my hands before touching their reptiles, some real good quarantine there. None have ever asked me to wear freshly washed clothes and avoid contact with my reptiles before coming.

perhaps they should put some qurantine and hygene practices in the code of practice and the reptile keeping courses that would have to be completed before the licences are handed out(similar to how there is a compulsory course in qld). A reptile shop isnt going to want a reputation for selling snakes with IBD or OPMV.


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## Colin (Sep 20, 2007)

pugsly said:


> Yeah thats fine, but wouldn't you rather them on display?
> 
> Ive been in at Troys shop several times, and so many people come through the doors and expect to see something there. (On display) the amount of times he has to explain 'No, there illegal to be ....... blah blah blah, he might as well have a tape recording. Then the potential customer goes, oh, ok, and walks out the door.





Yeah I've heard that countless times about pet shops too pugs, but these customers probably that know jack about keeping snakes in the first place and probably only want them as a whim. 

If they knew anything about reptiles, how to keep them, house them etc they would probably have a licence and know that you can't buy reptiles from shops in NSW in the first place. 

If they interested in reptiles they would have maybe found out about the requirements to keep them (licence etc) and how to house them etc before they entered the shop and never ask that question.

Are these impulse buyers we want our animals to go home with?

I know everyone has to start somewhere but to be able to go into a shop maybe put a deposit on a python, run down to the NPWS with a licence application to be processed and soon after go home with the animal? Maybe a little research should be done prior to owning a reptile. 

I remember many years ago the AHS organised for anyone interested, to do this TAFE course (that zoo keepers did etc) Herpetological Techniques and Advanced Herpetology. I don't think this course exists anymore, but even if you knew about herps it was fun. Harald Ehman was the teacher and it ran over several Saturdays at UTS and there were a few field trips and doing pit trapping, surveys and assignments etc. Anyone here ever done that course or similar? This course wasn't exactly on how to keep reptiles, and more for zoo keepers and field research techniques, but I can't see why one couldn't be organised on keeping and maintaining reptiles for beginners.

Maybe having a course run by TAFE & NSW NPWS that new owners had to successfully complete before they got their animals would be a good thing. If the hobby is growing so big as everyone says, maybe something like thats needed as a safeguard to seperate the impulse buyers from the serious newcomers to the hobby.


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

Hell have a reptile room for all I care, just like the Reptile Park set up wash hands, step into the bucket etc etc

That wont happen of course, but would be nice..


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

Great points mate.

Totally agree with the TAFE thing. I still don't agree with the impulse buyer argument, but each to there own.

Guess we will wait and see, there is a long long way to go, all we know is that is is going to happen, all the details of how and when are a way off yet, which is a good thing for now.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 20, 2007)

pugsly said:


> "...I'm sick of the hobby being hiden under a rock, people look at you like your a freak when you tell them you keep snakes etc, well thats no skin off my nose, but frankly Im over it, we have nothing to be ashamed of, and the more people who become interested the better IMO.
> 
> There is you 'alterior motive' mate.



I know what you mean Pugs  People come into my shop, see your poster on the wall then ask if we have snakes in the shop, and they stop dead at the door until we tell them NO. But i think having them in the shops could change ppl's views on them as being something dangerous and should be killed. Look at the spiders and scorpians, they are everywhere and ppl who say err yuk (I'm one of them) will still go in to look at them. I think ppl could learn to get use the reptiles the same.


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## grimbeny (Sep 20, 2007)

buck said:


> NPWS already monitor the pet industry as alot of the birds that are sold in shops are under licence with the exact same requirements as a reptile licence.


 
So NPWS ensures that enclosure size is big enough, that staff are competent enough to explain all aspects of husbandry, that quarantine measures are taken into consideration?


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## pugsly (Sep 20, 2007)

At the moment of course not. 

But, thats the point when this happens, lets see if they CAN try and work towards solutions to achieve this.


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## mysnakesau (Sep 22, 2007)

That's another point to. They already don't do enough check up on the licensed birds in commerical shops and in my years of having a private bird license have NEVER had anyone come in and check up on me at all. So why would they single out the reptiles as anything more special.


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