# Another question about intergrades



## dee4 (Mar 16, 2005)

Bigguy wrote in Mr K's thread,

Coastal Carpets/ Diamond Pythons 
Inland Carpets/ Diamond Pythons 
Coastal Carpets/Inland Carpets 
Coastal Carpets/ Jungle Carpets 
Coastal Carpets/ Top End Carpets 
Maculosus/ Stimsoni 
Childreni/ Stimsoni 

As for me I'm interested and eager to learn more on this, 
can further info be posted here for my records?
Is there pics to back up any data forwarded?
Anything welcome. 


Cheers


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## farmdog (Mar 16, 2005)

*RE: ???????????????????????????*



> As for me I'm interested and eager to learn more on this,


your not the only one their Mr dee


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

Well here's a couple of coastal diamond intergrades from Port Macquarie..


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## dee4 (Mar 16, 2005)

What determines the 1st 2 as intergrades browns? The last is obvious due to the colouring,would that be correct?and as i've said before pics don't do justice.


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## Dicco (Mar 16, 2005)

dee4 said:


> What determines the 1st 2 as intergrades browns? The last is obvious due to the colouring,would that be correct?and as i've said before pics don't do justice.



Their DNA


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> What determines the 1st 2 as intergrades browns?


The simple fact that they are true Port Mac intergrades...once you have seen enough diamonds and pure intergrades you can easily tell the difference,it is colouring,patterning as well as dna as Dicco said....


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

Here's another that is very diamond like in appearance in comparison to the others i posted....

oops wrong pic..try again!!


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## Dicco (Mar 16, 2005)

The intergrades your's by any chance Browns?


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## Magpie (Mar 16, 2005)

That 3rd one is nice browns, who bred that one?


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## dee4 (Mar 16, 2005)

> The simple fact that they are true Port Mac intergrades...once you have seen enough diamonds and pure intergrades you can easily tell the difference,it is colouring,patterning



You say this but why? what makes you so possitive? In those 2 what actually stands out to you?


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> You say this but why? what makes you so possitive? In those 2 what actually stands out to you?



I say this because they are Greg Hollises animals and one of very few pweople i know who breed true Port Mac intergrades and as i said before the colouring and patterning..

Here's a pic of a 6 month old,and yes i've had quite a few of these guys in my time but don't keep them anymore...


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## craig (Mar 16, 2005)

i had a very nice pair of pure port mac integrades but unfortunatly found the female dead in her cage this afternoon!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> That 3rd one is nice browns, who bred that one?


That's one of Gregs...what i liked about these guys is that similar to diamonds and jungles you never quite know how they will colour up as they change with each shed till adults of course...


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## dee4 (Mar 16, 2005)

> breed true Port Mac intergrades



I'm confused!
Aren't they called hybrid?
Or am I wrong, pls put me out of misery...........
I can understand colour and patterns but pls point it out to me? or am I just stupid.


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> I'm confused!
> Aren't they called hybrid?



Doh i give up!!!!


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## hugsta (Mar 16, 2005)

You were doing well too Browns...LOL



> I'm confused!
> Aren't they called hybrid?



Integrades.


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## dee4 (Mar 16, 2005)

It's easy for someone that's told, it's easy for someone that knows. Only trying to learn, but the attitude of that reply it makes me wonder who knows and who doesn't. It seems to me "that when the going gets tough the tough get going" Appreciate your time Browns
So I'm being told now that Intergrade with Intergrade in captivity is an intergrade?


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey dee4 this topic has been done to death,in fact there was a thread just a day or 2 ago about intergradeswhich are naturally occuring,hybrids are animals that have been purposely crossed in captivity....

Hugsta or duga,anyone some back up please :lol:


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## tourett (Mar 16, 2005)

I still not sure about what makes the first 2 pics of Browns obviously intergrades.
Tourett


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## Bryony (Mar 16, 2005)

craig said:


> i had a very nice pair of pure port mac integrades but unfortunatly found the female dead in her cage this afternoon!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:



oh hunni!
you ok? was it sudden?

it sux when you loose an animal


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## Magpie (Mar 16, 2005)

> I still not sure about what makes the first 2 pics of Browns obviously intergrades.
> Tourett




The fact that there were bred from two intergrade parents.
It would be much easier if we could call them port mac pythons.


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## hugsta (Mar 16, 2005)

> Hugsta or duga,anyone some back up please


Gotcha covered mate...LOL



> So I'm being told now that Intergrade with Intergrade in captivity is an intergrade?



An integrade is a coastal x diamond that has been interbreeding for thousands (maybe more) of years so they are really a totally seperate species of snake. So from Sydney upwards you would have diamonds, then integrades, then your coastal.


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> It would be much easier if we could call them port mac pythons.


Couldn't agree more...tourette checkout the pic stiffler posted in MrK's thread now that's a pure diamond and now compare that to the pics i posted...they look nothing alike!!!!


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> So I'm being told now that Intergrade with Intergrade in captivity is an intergrade?


What else would it be a bloody jungle....


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## tourett (Mar 16, 2005)

hugsta said:


> > Hugsta or duga,anyone some back up please
> 
> 
> Gotcha covered mate...LOL
> ...




Dont have any problems with any of that.

But how can you tell what is what by looking at them, without already knowing where their parents come from.
Tourett


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

"Browns drops a chill pill"


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## dee4 (Mar 16, 2005)

> An integrade is a coastal x diamond that has been interbreeding for thousands (maybe more) of years so they are really a totally seperate species of snake. So from Sydney upwards you would have diamonds, then integrades, then your coastal.


In the wild I can come to grips with this and totally understand and believe it or not I can understand which area they come from. But what I'm having trouble with is the colouring and patterns.


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## tourett (Mar 16, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> > tourette checkout the pic stiffler posted in MrK's thread now that's a pure diamond and now compare that to the pics i posted...they look nothing alike!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dee4 (Mar 16, 2005)

I'll say it for you Browns
Doh!!!!!!!!
Drop another chill pill man


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## peterescue (Mar 16, 2005)

De jevu. OOH! its creepy
A man with a samurai sword was found wandering the streets of Sydney today muttering the words inter grade. Police are baffled. It is understood he attacked a touru\ist who had commented that he had seen a high bridge pylon.


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## Already_Gone (Mar 16, 2005)

I really think they should make a speshal sticky under a new thread "Very frequently asked questions". Hybrid vs Intergrades should be there along with hatchling care. Then if someone comes along wanting to know, just post the link. I'm sure u would agree with me browns, it would save a lot of typing hours... JMO


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

LMFAO Peter...

dee4 what happened to your avatar man that was a crack up :lol:


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## hugsta (Mar 16, 2005)

> "Browns drops a chill pill"


Got any spare.....

LMAO Pete..


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> Got any spare.....


Sorry mate just dropped the last one,this intergrade stuff is killing me lol


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 16, 2005)

I have a question about integrades:

If a completely pure wild diamond and a completely pure wild coastal breed what would the offspring be?


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

hybrids


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 16, 2005)

even if it happened naturally in the wild?? The range for each species does overlap doesn't it?


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

> The range for each species does overlap doesn't it?


Exactly and in this range they are called intergrades,intergrades,intergrades....where's my samuri sword or better still my Gerka knive


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 16, 2005)

so in this range there is no pure diamonds and no pure coastals?? where did the pure ones go??


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## hugsta (Mar 16, 2005)

> so in this range there is no pure diamonds and no pure coastals?? where did the pure ones go??


Did you read this thread?? If you read one of my posts you will see my explanation of how the chain of snakes works from Sydney upwards.



> where's my samuri sword or better still my Gerka knive



mmm...it's getting that time isn't it Browns...LOL


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 16, 2005)

yes, so you truly believe that it is impossible for a pure coastal to ever come across a pure diamond in the wild ever again??


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## snakehunter (Mar 16, 2005)

I think it might be a good idea to create a glossary of herp terms where people can look up such terms as 'intergrade' and 'hybrid' and be able to understand the difference, it would save a lot of time


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 16, 2005)

to make things simpler, if by some miracle a pure coastal and a pure diamond came across each other in the wild (integrades would never have happended if this never happended before so it must be possible) what would the offspring be?


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## hugsta (Mar 16, 2005)

> yes, so you truly believe that it is impossible for a pure coastal to ever come across a pure diamond in the wild ever again??


Yes.


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

Read the thread dude and read the More Diamond gg thread,if you still can't work it out then there's no hope... :roll: 

My head is sore from banging the bloody wall....doh!!!


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## hugsta (Mar 16, 2005)

SW, what you don't realise is that this happened thousands of years ago, so they have been breeding like this for ages. That is why diamonds and coastals won't meet. They are seperated by integrades.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 16, 2005)

well I am left in awe that integrades ever happended at all, I mean heaven forbid that a pure coastal should cross into "integrade land" and the same for a diamond, and just how could you or anyone guarantee that this could never happen??


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 16, 2005)

the possibility is slim but come one if we came from some muck in a pond somewhere millions of years ago surely you could believe that one might slip through the cracks!! surely!!


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## skunk (Mar 16, 2005)

whats an intergrade ? 

HAHAH !! only kidding. i read the thread. plz dont bother answering me. :twisted:


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## BROWNS (Mar 16, 2005)

SW,your sig sums it up quite well i think.....

I guess you would call it evolution which if my memory serves me correctly you don't believe in?


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

I am not saying it is evolution, nor am I saying I believe in evolution, I am saying if you can believe in evolution, then surely you could believe it would be possible for the two pure animals to meet in the wild. There is far more chance of the latter than the former.

actually the question is plausible: what is an integrade?

is it what happens when a pure wild diamond breeds naturally in the wild with a pure wild coastal? I know if an integrade breeds with an integrade, naturally you get an integrade, of course the natural integrades found are probably many generation integrade but at the heart of it they are really just a diamond cross a coastal.

I think the reason so many people get confused about this subject is because people are so passionate about keeping snake pure they make the issue confusing.

Look at it from the new comers point of view:

on the one hand you say: a pure wild coastal breeding with a pure wild diamond = created integrades
on the other hand you say: a captive bred pure coastal breeding with a captive bred pure diamond = creates hybrids

this does not make sense, genetically both would produce the same thing!! The difference only comes with our perception of the snakes, we see it that if it happens naturally then it is an integrade because there is no outside force, but in captivity they are manually brought together so we call it hybrid.

It is as simple as that, if you took a captive pure diamond and a captive pure coastal and bred them, and continued to breed the offspring for thousands of years you would get: wait for it: here it comes: THE SAME THING THAT HAS OCCURED NATURALLY, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WOULD BE THAT YOUR INSTANCE DID NOT OCCUR NATURALLY!!


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## hugsta (Mar 17, 2005)

My head is hurting too Browns, I know how you feel... :shock: :wink:


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2005)

You've convinced me SW. 

That last big post sums it up to a tea i reckon.


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## hugsta (Mar 17, 2005)

> on the one hand you say: a pure wild coastal breeding with a pure wild diamond = created integrades
> on the other hand you say: a captive bred pure coastal breeding with a captive bred pure diamond = creates hybrids



The one BIG difference is that in the wild they have done it for hundreds of generations and have become their own "line" of Morelia. That is why an integrade looks different to any daimond, any carpet and any hybrid (coastal x diamond). It is not something done over night as in captive bred diamond x carpets, it is something over hundreds of generations.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

From a new comers point of view that is irrelevant, I fully understand the reasoning behind the need to seperate the two, but the only difference between hybrids and integrades (as we understand them) is that integrades have a more concentrated genetic makup, 99.99999.....% of the time integrades would produce offspring that doesn't look like a coastal or a diamond, but an integrade, a hybrid has a "loose" genetic makeup, its offspring could and most likely would produce offspring that were more like one or the other, until after many, many generations the genes would become concentrated. Just as they have in the wild.

I think if this fact was explained to people then they would realise the difference much easier and see why there is a need to preserve the "natural integrades" and not promote or breed "hybrids".


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

Or if they do breed or promote hybrids to never pass them off as natural integrades.


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## BROWNS (Mar 17, 2005)

You're just complicating the whole point of this thread....intergrades have been around for thousands of years and as Hugsta said are their own family of Morelia......maybe after someone has bred hundreds of pure coastals to hundreds of pure diamonds you might get what you are describing but i highly doubt that...there's so much variation in pure diamonds alone as well as coastals...

Keep it simple...intergrades are a naturally occuring line of morelia just as jungles or bredli are..they are not hybrids which "again" is a purposely selected crossing of species...simple as that and intergrades will always be intergrades even in another 1000 years if the world lasts that long!!!


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## BROWNS (Mar 17, 2005)

> maybe after someone has bred hundreds of pure coastals to hundreds of pure diamonds you might get what you are describing but i highly doubt that...


I should add that that would have to be after thousands of years of cross breeding and even then i doubt the dna would be the same...


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

Well get used to banging your head against the wall, because without an explanation that is closer to reality than, "they are different just accept it" you will get many more people asking the question: what is an integrade?

Just as a note, if you read my post above (I know its a long one) I agree that they are natural where hybrids are not, this is exactly the point I am trying to make and the point that most confused people see, hence there confusion.

Anyway, now I am getting a headache.

So what is an integrade anyway? :lol:


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## moosenoose (Mar 17, 2005)

I think SnakeWrangler has posted some very interesting points! This in particular!



> this does not make sense, genetically both would produce the same thing!! The difference only comes with our perception of the snakes, we see it that if it happens naturally then it is an integrade because there is no outside force, but in captivity they are manually brought together so we call it hybrid.
> 
> It is as simple as that, if you took a captive pure diamond and a captive pure coastal and bred them, and continued to breed the offspring for thousands of years you would get: wait for it: here it comes: THE SAME THING THAT HAS OCCURED NATURALLY, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WOULD BE THAT YOUR INSTANCE DID NOT OCCUR NATURALLY!!



I'm certainly going to do more reading on this because it jst sounds like a play on words to me! Intergrades & hybrids! 

So what happens when an intergrade breeds with a pure blood coastal or diamond? Does it become another intergrade because its occurred naturally in the wild?? You can't for one minute tell me the paths of these two animals could never cross! What happens when a breeder crosses an intergrade and a pureblood in captivity? Does that automatically make it a hybrid?? Sounds like there is a fine line on what is exactly what! I can understand the term and why it needs to be used - but exactly where and how you use it, is certainly highly debatable!


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## Greebo (Mar 17, 2005)

My gott! What a bunch of half baked theories just to argue the point.
There are a lot of references to what happens if an intergrade and a coastal breed in the wild. Sure, this probably does happen in the wild, it's been going on for thousands of years. Personally, I don't know if the offspring would be classed as hybrids or intergrades. 
But...here is where you need to pay attention...it is completely irrelevent to why reptile keepers use the terms intergrade and hybid.
The term intergrade refers to snakes already in captivity that are known to come from the area where these snakes have evolved. They are genereally accepted by keepers to be a separate species from Diamonds and Coastals. That is why people use the term intergrade. 
You can not create your own intergrades by crossbreeding species. The hypothetical theory of breeding your own for a thousand years is really clutching at straws. When you have done this, please get back to me and let me know how it went. I would be interested in hearing your results.


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## dee4 (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks ppl, there appears to be light at the end of the tunnel. It is becoming a little clearer for some of us.
The questions I will ask know is: How long have ppl been involved with breeding/studying pythons?
How long have intergrades been recognized?
Simple questions but generally there has been comments that they have been breeding in the wild for 1000's of years, well I certainly would like to know how we all know this.
I would say speculation is at hand on this one.
Besides sarcasm these are serious questions everyone has been asking, you all may bang your heads, gett headahces, drop some chill pills etc but these questions will be around for ever untill we all understand. Questions questions and more questions, ??? keep up the good work, there is info coming forward that is helping us all, the questions are general; ones that everyone wants to know, just not one thread here and another one there. No opertunities for questions to be asked at one place. This is it, get it on, bring it on, if one person comes out of tis witha undestanding you have acheived something, i for one are getting there. 

Thanks :roll: :wink:


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## Jarvis78 (Mar 17, 2005)

The way I understand it (from reading this thread) is intergrades are a new blood line that is the result of 2 (obviously more) coastle/diamond Hybrids breeding together. a hybrid is the the result of the coastle and the diamond breeding in the first place. thats how i interpret it.

does this sound at all like what is trying to be said here? or am i still barking up the wrong family tree?


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## Greebo (Mar 17, 2005)

Hey Dee, nothing wrong with asking questions, that's what the site is all about. I think the idea of an article about what exactly an intergrade is woud be a great idea. It would certainly save members having to explain the same thing over and over.
Anyone want to volunteer to write an article??
I think the frustration sets in when members put forward facts that are generally accepted to be true by the herping community only to have people try (in vain) to prove them wrong with hypotheticals.


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## dee4 (Mar 17, 2005)

There seems to be alot of hypotheticals on this one, unfortunately I don't think everyone has all the answers to all the questions Hypothetical or not. But that would be a good idea to have and article on this exact topic, maybe Greg Hollises could help out. I don't think simpley calling them Port Mac's would actually stop the questions.


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## moosenoose (Mar 17, 2005)

Greebo said:


> people try (in vain) to prove them wrong with hypotheticals.



It's certainly not a vain attempt Greebs, it's hypothesizing - an educated guess made by members who are confused with the terms in relation to when & why they are used. They are reasonable questions that I believe are intellegent ones, no matter how much Browns, Bigguy or yourself roll your eyes. I take offence at the eye rolling! I'm not stupid! I'm far from it! The questions are asked, I believe, to not discredit experienced members or theories, I honestly believe there is no malice behind them, but they are asked for the sole purpose of digging out the deeper answers.

I for one am glad this has been talked about in detail. I am also appreciative that experienced members such as yourselves who have a grasp on the use of this terminology have the patience to wade through some of the questions. It has been a very cloudy area for me and the terms have never really made perfect sense. 

So upon saying that, let me see if I've got this absolutely straight: If two intergrades are bred that come from the same area they remain intergrades. If two intergrades from different areas are bred they could in effect become hybrid intergrades?? (god the confusion is starting to set in again :lol
So a "new" intergrade cannot be achieved in captivity no matter what. And a hybrid is a breeding of 2 species that in reality can never meet in the wild! - Done! I hope!


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## dee4 (Mar 17, 2005)

Moosey babby, that's not bad going. I never done this before but the way you explained that, I was actually running out of breath. Gee thanks.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

It is ludicrous to say that you cannot end up with an integrade if you cross a pure coastal with a pure diamond and breed their offspring over many generations, afterall this is exactly what happened in the wild!!

@dee4: the only thing that would stop the questions is to stop the confusion, it really isn't that hard to understand. You really can't argue with the genetics, now I am in no way an expert on genetics so if I am wrong about this and a person who has a genuine in depth knowledge of how genetics works comes on here as says I am wrong, then I will accept it. Otherwise, my argument holds more water.



Greebo said:


> The term intergrade refers to snakes already in captivity that are known to come from the area where these snakes have evolved.





bigguy said:


> Menagerie, Diamonds occur south of Taree to the Vic border. Coastal Carpets occur north of Coffs Harbour. Inbetween are the intergrades were over hundreds of thousands of years the two species merged with each other, creating a seperate species.



Bigguy seems to think the wild ones are also integrades (from another thread).

I will also point out, so that it doesn't look like I am trying to be deceptive, that bigguy also says that "pure diamond" cross "pure coastal" is not an integrade. I agree with this. As I said before, an integrade and a diamond cross coastal have the same gene base, the only difference is that an integrade has a "tight" (consistently produce the same thing) set of those genes where a first generation diamond cross coastal has a "loose" (do not consistently produce the same thing) set, the latter would require much specialised breeding (the same that has happened naturally) to attain the same status as the natural integrade.

Besides all this, it has be shown elsewhere on this forum that diamonds and coastals (plus all other eastern and northern Morelia) are really the same species "genetically" anyway, so "integrades" are really just "forms" of Morelia spilota species. They are not really a seperate species at all.



toxinologist said:


> Taylor et al's work is strong evidence for concluding that all of the eastern Australian and northern Australian Morelia belong to just one taxonomic unit Morelia spilota spilota. Sure some of them look different - that means nothing.
> 
> Look at it this way ... Unless they happen to be biggotted, racist, [email protected]*mbag hitlerites most people accept that the human race is comprised of a single taxonomic unit Homo sapiens with wide geographical variation in appearance but just one unique genome. The concept is simple, broadly accepted and proven fact.
> 
> So why should it be so hard to accept the fact that in terms of many other types of animals similar variations in appearance (for whatever reasons)... such as colour, body size ... occur despite the fact that the genome of all is one and the same.



Cheers.


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## Magpie (Mar 17, 2005)

I still think if we called the Port Mac pythons, people would be able to get over it a lot easier.
No one suggests that if you cross a darwin with a coastal you get a jungle do they?
Yet jungles are found in between coastals on the east coast and darwins on the north coast?
The fact is, The diamond python sub species, family, group, clade, "type" whatever you want to call it does best around the sydney region. Hence that is what is found there after many years of natural selection. Coastal types do better further north, hence that is where they are found. Port Mac types do best in the range in between, hence they have been living there for thousands of year and the ones in the centre of that range have not bred with anything but other port macs for thousands of years till white people came along. 
Yes, I'm sure there are natural hybrids being hatched along the edges of the distributions.
But no, crossing them in captivity does not give you a port mac, it gives you a cross.
Apart from anything else, your diamond would have to be from the northern extremes of the range and your coastal from the southern extremes of their range.
To put it another way that I hope people do not find offensive.... If an Indian person had a child with an Afgan, their child would not be of Pakistani descent.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

What was the offspring of the first natural diamond X coastal called? Integrade or Hybrid?


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## peterescue (Mar 17, 2005)

SnakeWrangler said:


> What was the offspring of the first natural diamond X coastal called? Integrade or Hybrid?



Marvin or something. 
Its totally inconsequential really
Who isnt to say that diamonds and coastal didnt emerge from intregrades.
They all emerged from somewhere and it wasnt simultanous appearances up and down the coast. 
What that means is that its not a fact that intergrades are a mating of a diamond and a coastal but that they are another form of the species Morelia spilota. Not a cross, not an interbreed, not anything except a 

DISTINCT FORM OF THE MORELIA SPILOTA COMPLEX.

They appeared in the same way as M. varigata, M.s.cheyni etc. They evolved. This was not because of the chance meeting of a diamond and a coastal. It is the result of the continued breeding of genetic traits and possible one of the complex, be it coastal or diamond may have descended from the intergrades. My money is on the diamonds.
You cannot replicate that at home. Is that clear now.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

peterescue said:


> Who isnt to say that diamonds and coastal didnt emerge from intregrades.


I think this is an exceptional point, and it would make more sense to me, because an integrade has the genetic information necessary to create both diamond looking and coastal looking snakes, therefore if those particlaur genes were isolated, the various forms would emerge.



peterescue said:


> You cannot do that at home. Is that clear now.


Actually you can, it has and is being done with designer snakes, all it takes for a new sub-species is to get snakes that produce consistent offspring, once the genes are modified enough the will produce a new "form". In fact I can't wait for the black and white jaguar carpets to be produced in Australia, even better would be a pure jet black python. :twisted:


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## dee4 (Mar 17, 2005)

Very interesting isn't it? For a novice, how do you tell the difference by sight? As it is all very well stating that this form of Morelia is from here and that form is from there, but if you were to look at one that looks similar to either a coastal or a diamond. Is it as simple as any other differences between pythons or not? Colouring and patterns doesn't mean diddly sqwaut to me if they are similar to either breed. As for Browns 1st 3 pics last night, I can see the difference in the 3rd pic but for the 1st 2 ????? Pls point out the exactly where on those 2 pythons you can see the diff as this will put the icing on the cake for me.


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## Retic (Mar 17, 2005)

The only true Diamond can only occur where no other carpet species occur.


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## BROWNS (Mar 17, 2005)

> The term intergrade refers to snakes already in captivity that are known to come from the area where these snakes have evolved


No the term intergrade refers to the ones in the wild but yes the ones being bred in captivity come from the region where they have evolved


> Bigguy seems to think the wild ones are also integrades (from another thread).


That's exactly the point,intergrades are found in the wild in the areas already pointed out.....the intergrades that are now being bred in captivity are direct descendants from wild animals caught from specific localities and they all vary...all our animals originated from the wild in one way or another obviously..


> toxinologist wrote:
> Taylor et al's work is strong evidence for concluding that all of the eastern Australian and northern Australian Morelia belong to just one taxonomic unit Morelia spilota spilota. Sure some of them look different - that means nothing.
> 
> Look at it this way ... Unless they happen to be biggotted, racist, [email protected]*mbag hitlerites most people accept that the human race is comprised of a single taxonomic unit Homo sapiens with wide geographical variation in appearance but just one unique genome. The concept is simple, broadly accepted and proven fact.
> ...


So we may as well call them all carpets,but we all know the difference between a Darwin,jungle and Murray Darlings for example.As Magpie said i also think they should be called Port Mac carpets.Also as pointed out earlier there are other intergrades,clines ,intermediates etc of other species such as the stimsoni mac intergrades which are tiny...2 foot maximum and i highly doubt you would get the same looking animals if you crossed a stimsons with a maculosus in captivity...they would be classed as hybrids!!!Personally i think these and other intergrades should be called a specific type of python such as Port Mac carpets,and the stimsons maculosus intergrades i myself call zebras because they have a banded pattern with a small amount of variation in colour as with most pythons.That's just my own terminology but i still think they should have names as who knows what species you're talking about when you mention the dreaded word intergrade.


> They are reasonable questions that I believe are intellegent ones, no matter how much Browns, Bigguy or yourself roll your eyes. I take offence at the eye rolling! I'm not stupid! I'm far from


Moose the reason for eye rolling and head banging is because this topic has been covered so many times it's not funny.I don't for one second think you are stupid and mean no offence to you or others whatsoever,but after somethings been explained countless times before it gets very monotonous.


> So upon saying that, let me see if I've got this absolutely straight: If two intergrades are bred that come from the same area they remain intergrades. If two intergrades from different areas are bred they could in effect become hybrid intergrades?? (god the confusion is starting to set in again )


That certainly is a tad confusing but they would still be cosidered an intergrade....This is another good reason they should have names such as Port Macs,Kempsey or Forster carpets,just like there are Brisbane coastals,Proserpine carpets,Townsville coastals,Cape Yorks etc just as there is with locality bred jungles such as Palmerston,Mission Beach,Tully,Atherton etc.


> So a "new" intergrade cannot be achieved in captivity no matter what. And a hybrid is a breeding of 2 species that in reality can never meet in the wild! - Done! I hope!



Yep exactly right...good one Moose!!!


> peterescue wrote:
> Who isnt to say that diamonds and coastal didnt emerge from intregrades


Yep definitely something to ponder there!!!


> peterescue wrote:
> You cannot do that at home. Is that clear now.
> 
> Actually you can, it has and is being done with designer snakes, all it takes for a new sub-species is to get snakes that produce consistent offspring, once the genes are modified enough the will produce a new "form". In fact I can't wait for the black and white jaguar carpets to be produced in Australia, even better would be a pure jet black python.


Now you're barking up the wrong tree again,these are classed as hybrids ,selectively bred crosses of species not intergrades which as explained occur naturally in the wild....designer snakes is hybridising not creating another species or sub species!!!!


> Pls point out the exactly where on those 2 pythons you can see the diff as this will put the icing on the cake for me


OK,very simple,diamonds do vary a great deal but have you ever seen a pure diamond or pure coastal that looks like those 2 pythons?

Phew!!! Hope that all wasn't too confusing people,i'm far from an expert on this topic but have a fair amount of knowledge on the subject.Greg Hollis is the man to speak to if you want to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak,and they are still studying these guys in the wild so i'm sure there will be more answers to our questions in time....

Does anyone have a pic of the giant carpet found last year sometime i think it was?That was the biggest recorded free ranging carpet recorded ever and that too was a Port Mac carpet,or intergrade!!


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

I am not barking up any trees ... At least not today. :lol:

Then answer the question, what was the first diamond X coastal (if this is really how it happened)? it cannot be an integrade because that would mean all diamond X coastals are integrades. It had to be a hybrid?? So then integrades are nothing more than hybridisation??

The cycle continues...


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## peterescue (Mar 17, 2005)

[quote="BROWNSDoes anyone have a pic of the giant carpet found last year sometime i think it was?That was the biggest recorded free ranging carpet recorded ever and that too was a Port Mac carpet,or intergrade!![/quote]
I think that you will find that may have been something to do with Greg Hollis.

Sorry Wrangles but you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you cross two pythons9(diamond and coastal) and call it an intergrade is is not and can never be a Morelia spilota Mcdowelli spilota.
It would be Morelia Spilota spilota X Morelia spilota mcdowelli.
That is the difference

I really cant understand the problem.
The onlyn way that you could mistake for anything else is by either belligerance, illiteracy, exceptionally low IQ. 
I would also accept religous grounds.
Stupidity isnt really an excuse.
This topic has been explained ad infinitum and still the idiot well flows incessently. We need a biiger cork.
I dont think I should come near one of these discussions again.


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## moosenoose (Mar 17, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> Yep exactly right...good one Moose!!!



Beaudy!!!! Now where is my free donkey?? :lol: :lol: I'm cool with it now :wink: I've got a grasp on it all


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 17, 2005)

No need for name calling.

I do not call diamond X coastal an integrade, I call it a hybrid. What happended in nature (if we accept the current theory about integrades) then?? Didn't a coastal X a diamond?? Do you deny this??

How can you say that a diamond X a coastal doesn't make an integrade, this is exactly how it started!!

Your post really made no sense at all. :?


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## dee4 (Mar 17, 2005)

> OK,very simple,diamonds do vary a great deal but have you ever seen a pure diamond or pure coastal that looks like those 2 pythons?



I'm sorry Browns I can't say that I have , as disturbing as this is to you I'm still not experienced enough to comment what they are. Is there a tinge of tan/brown through them as it slightly looks? If that's the case I can see it.!!!


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## Pike01 (Mar 17, 2005)

But what if a coastal was picked up by an eagle the same time as a tornado picked up a diamond in wollongong ha ha ha and they both got dropped in forster ha ha what if pigs fly, there hundreds of kms between coastals and diamonds, of course there is no chance of them coming together. It isnt that far between M-D carpets and diamonds, with rivers running west from the great divide there is more chance, but if a diamond was washed down in a flood into carpet country it would still be a hybrid because the diamond has been taken from its natural range , through the intergrade zone. Come think about it.


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## peterescue (Mar 17, 2005)

SnakeWrangler said:


> No need for name calling.
> 
> I do not call diamond X coastal an integrade, I call it a hybrid. What happended in nature (if we accept the current theory about integrades) then?? Didn't a coastal X a diamond?? Do you deny this??
> 
> ...



As opposed to nonsense I suppose
Its not rocket surgery


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2005)

*????????????????????????*

:lol: Hey browns,i found one near what was sea acres right on the coast at port macquarie and it was just the normal black diamond although it didnt have the brightness off southern diamonds.Those pictures look like captive hybrids and also whats getting around mostly as diamonds on the market.Never met a person who said they produced hybrids EVERY one produces pure diamonds :lol: :lol: They are pure port integrades of holliss pictured though,just want to know where you find them,maybe west of port macquarie.?


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## tourett (Mar 17, 2005)

[quote="dee4I'm sorry Browns I can't say that I have , as disturbing as this is to you I'm still not experienced enough to comment what they are. Is there a tinge of tan/brown through them as it slightly looks? If that's the case I can see it.!!![/quote]

The way I think it works D4 is in the shape of the Markings/Rossettes and the color.
Pure Diamonds have small white spots/Rosettes 4-6 scales in size and seem have white rosettes with yellow and black scales.
Intergrades have larger areas of white/yellowish not really spots, that are more like 15-30 scales in size even larger and the intergrades are more yellow. The yellow is darker and the white area can be yellowish aswell LOL .
Does that make sense?:lol: 
Tourett


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## dee4 (Mar 18, 2005)

Simple, thanks tourett.


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## moosenoose (Mar 18, 2005)

Oh dear, it's started again :lol: My next question after I read this:
(ps: I don't put forward half baked theories :lol



Pike01 said:


> there hundreds of kms between coastals and diamonds,.



I've gathered this (now :lol, but what happens when you mix an integrade with a Diamond?? Or with a Coastal? What does it then become? Surely integrades and pure blood snakes still mix in the wild??? True or false?? (just asking?? :lol


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## hugsta (Mar 18, 2005)

> I've gathered this (now ), but what happens when you mix an integrade with a Diamond?? Or with a Coastal? What does it then become?



A hybrid.



> I'm sorry Browns I can't say that I have , as disturbing as this is to you I'm still not experienced enough to comment what they are. Is there a tinge of tan/brown through them as it slightly looks? If that's the case I can see it.!!!



Excellent D4



> I do not call diamond X coastal an integrade, I call it a hybrid. What happended in nature (if we accept the current theory about integrades) then?? Didn't a coastal X a diamond?? Do you deny this??



Can you tell me that the integrade was a result of a diamond x coastal first?? Or can you tell me that a daimond was produced from an integradex coastal?? or that a coastal was produced from an integradexdaimond??

I think not.

If integrades were called Port macs or whatever for arguements sake other than integrades, this ongoing debate wouldn't be here.



> As opposed to nonsense I suppose
> Its not rocket surgery



Exactly Peter, some ppl just don't get it.


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## hugsta (Mar 18, 2005)

A hybrid is man made, an integrade is naturally occuring.


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## moosenoose (Mar 18, 2005)

yes, I know this, but isn't an intergrade something that occurs over millions of years? Isn't that what this discussion has been about? That if you cross these animals in captivity they become hybrids but if it happens in the wild throuh the evolutionary processes they are integrades? (still not half baked :wink: :lol


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 18, 2005)

hugsta said:


> Can you tell me that the integrade was a result of a diamond x coastal first?? Or can you tell me that a daimond was produced from an integradex coastal?? or that a coastal was produced from an integradexdaimond??
> 
> I think not.



I never tried to make this claim!! In fact when this was suggested I found it very interesting and in fact said that it seems more probable to me that it happened this way, if you really look at it, integrades have all the genetic information to produce all forms of Morelia spilota.

--EDIT--
Incidently, you claim I cannot say for sure the origin of any of those snakes, I agree I wasn't there to see it, but let me ask you, were you there to see the "apes become humans"??

This is a bit of a contradiction I think??
--EDIT--



hugsta said:


> Exactly Peter, some ppl just don't get it.


If I don't get it, then why can't you "squash" my theory?

In fact now you agree with me!!



husta said:


> A hybrid is man made, an integrade is naturally occuring.



The only real difference is the fact that one occurs naturally and the other does not!! This is what I have been saying from the start.

THE ONLY REAL DIFFERENCE IS OUR PERCEPTION OF THE SNAKES!!


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## moosenoose (Mar 18, 2005)

hugsta said:


> > As opposed to nonsense I suppose
> > Its not rocket surgery
> 
> 
> ...



I'm afraid its appearing an awful lot like rocket science Huggy :lol: :lol:

*HERE IS MY REASONING TO THE LAST 'Q' I WILL ASK ABOUT THIS:*

*1) CAN A INTERGRADE AND A PUREBLOOD MATE IN THE WILD??? (DIAMOND TO INTERGRADE - COASTAL TO INTEGRADE)

2) WHAT DOES IT THEN BECOME??: AN INTEGRADE OR A HYBRID??

3) IF IT BECOMES AN INTERGRADE IT PUTS THE MILLION YEAR + EVOLUTIONARY THEORY - "OUT THE WINDOW" (BECAUSE THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED IN CAPTIVITY)

4) AND IT APPEARS IT CANNOT BECOME A HYBRID! BECAUSE FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN TOLD, A HYBRID MEANS THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF HAVING 2 SPECIES MEET IN THE WILD AND MATE. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE VIA HUMAN INTERVENTION (RIGHT?)

SO HERE IT IS (THE QUESTION THAT CANNOT BE ANSWERED :lol: :lol: (AND PLEASE ANSWER ALL OF MY QUESTIONS ABOVE UPON ASWERING THIS SO I KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON :lol

Q: CAN A BREEDER MAKE AN INTERGRADE? (it's not a trick question - it just needs an answer)*


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## moosenoose (Mar 18, 2005)

:cry: *I JUST WANNA CRY!!!!!* :cry: :lol: *I'm soooooooooooooooo confused now!* (again)


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## bigguy (Mar 18, 2005)

Guys, nice debate going on here, but most have missed the point. We are talking sub species here , not true species. Sub species are where a true species has sub divided and altered due to climatic or geographical barriers. These differences of adaptation occurred over a long period of time.

Intergade zones are actually a buffer zone area where the species split into different forms(subspecies) so share charactoristics of both distinct forms. They WERE NOT formed were a wild Diamond bred with a wild Carpet somewhere in the past. They are actually the link where nature divided a species. They are neither pure Carpet or Diamond but a mixture of both colour forms as the species divided. This is why intergrades to the south mainly resemble Diamonds and to the north they mainly resemble Carpets.

Dee4, it is not uncommon to see intergrades that may look nearly completely like a pure Diamond or Carpet. Its only when you look very closely you may see some differences. In these cases people could easily be mislead into thinking they have a pure snake. As for Browns pics. No3 is obviously a intergrade. No1, even though very Diamondish in appearence, has some brownish colouration on its back. As for No2, from the pic I can not tell wether that was an intergrade or pure Diamond. I have seen heaps of Diamonds around Gosford that closely resemble that snake. Maybe if seen in real life some differences may be detected, but at the moment we can only go on the location given.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2005)

Its all a crock of _

Intergrades are/were made up so old school herpers could make money off newbies that didnt know any better. Its like hallmark and valentines day. 

they are all just hybrids whether wild occuring or man-made. 

Either buy them or dont buy them, thats all there is to it!!! 

Integrade/hybrid...pfft, who cares!!!! 

And yeah, im a newbie to it all, but i dont give a **** what people think, i love the hobby and will always love the hobby and the herps to go with it!!

ohhh controversy, i love it!!!!

&lt;&lt; You have been warned about swearing before on several occassions. Your account is suspended for 7 days. Please contact admin for your new password in a weeks time>>


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 18, 2005)

makes sense to me bigguy


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## bigguy (Mar 18, 2005)

Moose, to answer you question. If you breed 2 intergrades together the result is pure intergrade. If a pure intergrade bred with a pure Diamond or Carpet, it would be a hybid sharing different genectical fingerprints.

Intergrades were never wild hybrids, but rather where Diamonds slowly turned into Carpets as nature formed 2 sub species for some unknown reason(more then likely climate). They are virtually a subspecies in themselves, having a different genectical fingerprint then either Diamonds or Carpets.


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## Tim (Mar 18, 2005)

bigguy said:


> Guys, nice debate going on here, but most have missed the point. We are talking sub species here , not true species. Sub species are where a true species has sub divided and altered due to climatic or geographical barriers. These differences of adaptation occurred over a long period of time.
> 
> Intergade zones are actually a buffer zone area where the species split into different forms(subspecies) so share charactoristics of both distinct forms. They WERE NOT formed were a wild Diamond bred with a wild Carpet somewhere in the past. They are actually the link where nature divided a species. They are neither pure Carpet or Diamond but a mixture of both colour forms as the species divided. This is why intergrades to the south mainly resemble Diamonds and to the north they mainly resemble Carpets.



Ok that makes sense, I think I'm following now


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## moosenoose (Mar 18, 2005)

bigguy said:


> Moose, to answer you question. If you breed 2 intergrades together the result is pure intergrade. If a pure intergrade bred with a pure Diamond or Carpet, it would be a hybid sharing different genectical fingerprints.
> 
> Intergrades were never wild hybrids, but rather where Diamonds slowly turned into Carpets as nature formed 2 sub species for some unknown reason(more then likely climate). They are virtually a subspecies in themselves, having a different genectical fingerprint then either Diamonds or Carpets.



Bob, you're a champion and I love you (lol) - but you haven't answered my one question:



> 1) CAN A INTERGRADE AND A PUREBLOOD MATE IN THE WILD??? (DIAMOND TO INTERGRADE - COASTAL TO INTEGRADE)
> 
> 2) WHAT DOES IT THEN BECOME??: AN INTEGRADE OR A HYBRID??


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## bigguy (Mar 18, 2005)

Moose, I Did answer that question. Re read my posts. If it happened it would be a hybrid of 2 different genectical colour forms.


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## moosenoose (Mar 18, 2005)

bigguy said:


> Moose, I Did answer that question. Re read my posts. If it happened it would be a hybrid of 2 different genectical colour forms.



So you are saying that hybrids can be created in the wild - but only hybrids in relation to colour?? Have I got it?? Darker ones to the south and lighter ones to the north.

 I think it's fully clicked! I think :lol:


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 18, 2005)

bigguy said:


> Intergade zones are actually a buffer zone area where the species split into different forms(subspecies) so share charactoristics of both distinct forms. They WERE NOT formed were a wild Diamond bred with a wild Carpet somewhere in the past. They are actually the link where nature divided a species. They are neither pure Carpet or Diamond but a mixture of both colour forms as the species divided. This is why intergrades to the south mainly resemble Diamonds and to the north they mainly resemble Carpets.





bigguy said:


> Intergrades were never wild hybrids, but rather where Diamonds slowly turned into Carpets as nature formed 2 sub species for some unknown reason(more then likely climate). They are virtually a subspecies in themselves, having a different genectical fingerprint then either Diamonds or Carpets.


This explanation makes alot of sense, and agrees totally with the idea that integrades are not the product of diamond X coastal but rather the complete opposite. This concept makes more sense to me, as I said when it was first suggested.

One thought I had after reading that down south integrades resemble diamonds and up north they resemble coastals, maybe this is because at the extremes of the integrades range they are still breeding with those next to them. This of course would mean that where the different forms meet you would find hybrids, maybe it is the case that you can really only find pure specimens in the heart of their range and not on the edge where they meet other forms.

Nice explanation bigguy, but one thing, WHERE WERE YOU BEFORE!!! :lol:

As a note, *IF* and that is a big IF, the integrades were somehow proven to have come from diamond X coastal then I would still hold that everything I said early to be true, however if it is as bigguy and others believe (and have convinced me), then everything I said earlier is useless and invalid, even though most of you probably thought this anyway. :lol:

Also, if there is a glossary of terms made I think bigguy's explanation should be pasted along side the term 'Integrade'.

Cheers.


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## moosenoose (Mar 18, 2005)

SnakeWrangler said:


> Nice explanation bigguy, but one thing, WHERE WERE YOU BEFORE!!! :lol:
> .



I agree! And to think we could have lost the big lug! :lol:


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## bigguy (Mar 18, 2005)

Sw, scientists now believe snakes came to Australia across a land bridge to the north. If this is the case I would say Carpets were here first so Diamonds must have been formed from Carpets(I am only assuming this by the way) as they adapted to the cooler southern east coast. We are talking about 300 to 400klm strip of the coast between Coffs And Karuha. 

To the north they more closely resemble Carpets as this is where they first started adapting to the change to Diamonds. At the southern range they more closeley resemble Diamonds as this is what they were eventually changing into.

I have no doubt that on the extreme borders of the changeover zone that intergrades may hybridize with pures, afterall there is no wall seperating them.


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## peterescue (Mar 18, 2005)

isnt that what I wrote, Jeeeeezuuz H. Wheres that head bangin thing


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## BROWNS (Mar 18, 2005)

> I have no doubt that on the extreme borders of the changeover zone that intergrades may hybridize with pures, afterall there is no wall seperating them.


Bob this is why i asked in that other thread where do intergrades stop being intergrades and become pure coastals,to which you answered the Northern range of the intergrade is a jagged line through Coffs Harbour and only 20 k's away they are pure coastal!!!

Now you are saying that they don't stop being pure intergrades and can still hybridize in the wild which to me still means an intergrade of the 2 species as it happens in the wild...not man made!!!If there is no wall seperating them then how do they become pure coastals only 20 k's away???

Another question to ponder is if say a Jungle escaped from my collection into the bush and bred with the local carpet species couldn't that completely stuff up the whole gene pool eventually in that area and same goes for many other species that could well escape from collections into their non natural zones and breed with the local species????????

The discussion goes on!!!


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## dee4 (Mar 18, 2005)

Perfect logic, makes sense Bob. Exactly why I posted this thread was to get some of the unanswered questions answered.


> Dee4, it is not uncommon to see intergrades that may look nearly completely like a pure Diamond or Carpet. Its only when you look very closely you may see some differences. In these cases people could easily be mislead into thinking they have a pure snake. As for Browns pics. No3 is obviously a intergrade. No1, even though very Diamondish in appearence, has some brownish colouration on its back. As for No2, from the pic I can not tell wether that was an intergrade or pure Diamond. I have seen heaps of Diamonds around Gosford that closely resemble that snake. Maybe if seen in real life some differences may be detected, but at the moment we can only go on the location given.



Thanks for pointing out a question asked a few times, it answers a lot for me anyway.


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## dee4 (Mar 18, 2005)

> Another question to ponder is if say a Jungle escaped from my collection into the bush and bred with the local carpet species couldn't that completely stuff up the whole gene pool eventually in that area and same goes for many other species that could well escape from collections into their non natural zones and breed with the local species????????



Hypotheticals again, it never ends.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 18, 2005)

Peter, yes you were the first one that I can see to suggest this in this thread, however we went on to continue talking as though it was diamond X coastal, which if was found to be true I would go back to everything I have previous said because it would stand to reason.

You will see in my first post after you saying that, I acknowledged how reasonable your suggestion was and I thought it more probable. There difference is that you gave nowhere near the description that bigguy did. Bigguy's description has convinced me of this idea.

If the coastals were the first (as bigguy hypothesises), I would still be easily able to believe that all forms of Morelia spilota descended from the first original species which split as bigguy described. Coastals today still have the genetic information to produced all the colours found in the Morelia spilota even Morelia bredli, and is it correct that they are also the largest of all Morelia spilota?


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## bigguy (Mar 18, 2005)

Browns, you appear to come across as a person who has knowledge of Jungle Carpets. Can you tell me exactly where their range stops and Coastals begin. I want you to tell me the exact line seperating the two. Now tell me what is to stop a pure Coastal mating with a pure Jungle along that line, or do all species know not to cross the border.


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## shanesaussie_pythons (Mar 18, 2005)

*intergrades*

Biguy hi mate that sounds like a question for one of those SUEDO EXSPERTS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT regards shane from A.P


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## Greebo (Mar 18, 2005)

*RE: intergrades*

You know those signs you see on the side of the road that say "Wombats crossing next 2 km". They probably have something like that. "Snakes no cross breeding next 10 km."


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## dee4 (Mar 18, 2005)

*RE: intergrades*

WELL, that would make it a lot less confusing I think.


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## BROWNS (Mar 19, 2005)

*RE: intergrades*



> Browns, you appear to come across as a person who has knowledge of Jungle Carpets. Can you tell me exactly where their range stops and Coastals begin. I want you to tell me the exact line seperating the two. Now tell me what is to stop a pure Coastal mating with a pure Jungle along that line, or do all species know not to cross the border.


I don't know of any exact line where a jungles range stops and coastals begin as many places where there are jungles there are also coastals.The quote below is from another thread,and they would also be found sharing localities around Kuranda,Cairns,Port Douglas and i'm guessing Mission Beach as well,as you get further up the Atherton Tablelands i have noticed Atherton Jungles which are still cheynei fade out and you start finding Cape York carpets....The Burdekin River begins in a small place way up on the Tablelands called Reedebrook and runs right through some jungle territory down to and through Ayr,same as the Johnstone River in Innisfail where coastals and jungles also overlap..... taking a good hypothetical guess guess i would say it wouldn't be hard for a jungle to float downstream from either areas and end up where jungles stop being found and i doubt it has anything to do with elevation either as Cairns ,Innisfail and Mission Beach are right on the coast and Cairns is so low and flat a huge king tide and a good cyclone would flatten the place.Just as an example what i have mentioned in one area about your question is this quote from another thread...

quote=BROWNS wrote...Now what about jungle coastal intergrades......you can go up the Plmerston highway and see a plain old coastal and then a screamer of a jungle sharing the same territory.Who says some of these wild jungles have no coastal in them and the same with coastals having some jungle in them?The carpets up that way all seem to have thye jungle type head pattern...it's all pretty confusing but i think there have been studies done on this too!!! 

This is from another thread and i'm talking in reference to where you state pure intergrades stop being pure intergrades 20 k's away from that jagged line through Coffs....

quote = BROWNS wrote....So within that jagged line through Coffs the intergrades all of a sudden become pure coastals???
quote=Bigguy wrote...Browns, it appear so. Most intergrades from the far northern range tend to closely resemble Carpets, with a hint of Diamond. This is typical at Coffs Harbour. But just 20klms north at Woolgoolga they appear pure Carpets with not a trace of Diamond. 

I have found the same at the southern boundaries. The Intergrades I have seen appear to go south to Karuah and to the Coast at Port Stephens, but travel just 20 klms further south and pure Diamonds are found with no trace at all of Carpet in them.

All i'm saying is from your answer to my question is that you say they go from pure intergade to pure coastal only 20 k's away from each other but then you say they do not know not to cross that border and intergades can still breed with a pure coastal in the wild...now to me that still makes them intergrades and who knows in another hundred years the intergrade zone may extend further North again.....Pretty plausable theory if you ask me but hey i'm far from an expert on either diamond coastal intergaeds or jungle coastal intergrades but have a fair grasp on the whole situation...you appear to be the expert who knows all so maybe you can tell me the answer to your question about where jungles range stops and coastals start???

As i said earlier i believe many areas have both jungles and coastals in the same region and who's to say there's no jungle in the coastals and vica versa?Anyway the question and whole topic is on Diamond coastal intergrades,intergrades,intergrades...i'm not going to be sleeping again tonight cause of that bloody word :lol:


> Biguy hi mate that sounds like a question for one of those SUEDO EXSPERTS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT regards shane from A.P


If you are referring to me Shane from Aussie-Pythons?I hope not,but if so you go take a flying you know what at a rolling donught or maybe even educate the masses with your own input into this discussion!!!


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## moosenoose (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: RE: intergrades*



peterescue said:


> isnt that what I wrote, Jeeeeezuuz H. Wheres that head bangin thing



No! If so, it was poorly explained. Where's my head banging thing? :roll: :wink: 



dee4 said:


> Hypotheticals again, it never ends.



Nice one dee4! :lol: :lol: 



BROWNS said:


> > Biguy hi mate that sounds like a question for one of those SUEDO EXSPERTS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT regards shane from A.P
> 
> 
> If you are referring to me Shane from Aussie-Pythons?I hope not,but if so you go take a flying you know what at a rolling donught or maybe even educate the masses with your own input into this discussion!!!



Hahahahaha I love it! :lol:

Thanks Bob for enlightening this topic a little further. It really didn't seem totally clear cut to me with the definitions being used. I honestly thought I knew what was being talked about a little more than I did - but now realised I was way off the mark. I still have questions but I think I'll watch this time :lol: ( are you impressed Ad? :lol: :lol and see more of the results. Awesome discussion! 

Thanks so much to the ppl here in the know, and have assisted in trying to enlighten us with your knowledge on this matter. This, if you can believe it, is exactly why I joined this site. (oh and appart from the "Days of our Lives" sagas that go on here - marriages and births :lol

Cheers,
Luke


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## dee4 (Mar 19, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: intergrades*



> Browns, you appear to come across as a person who has knowledge of Jungle Carpets.



I think that was a compliment Browns.




> ...you appear to be the expert who knows all so maybe you can tell me the answer to your question about where jungles range stops and coastals start???



Ran out of Chill pills hey?HEHEHE :lol: 



> Anyway the question and whole topic is on Diamond coastal intergrades,intergrades,intergrades...i'm not going to be sleeping again tonight cause of that bloody word





No it's not Browns, in general terms it's about intergrades and from what I can figure the word intergrade that you are so scared about and keeps you awake at night could be widely used for any subspecies in the wild with any areas that cross over into one anothers zones/areas. 

If only pythons were prejudice like humans! Would we have intergrades then? Would we have a vast variety of pythons of which we all love? What would we have to do with ourselves?


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## BROWNS (Mar 19, 2005)

*RE: Re: RE: intergrades*



> I think that was a compliment Browns.


You really think so????????


> Quote:
> 
> ...you appear to be the expert who knows all so maybe you can tell me the answer to your question about where jungles range stops and coastals start???
> 
> ...


Yep certainly have.....i just didn't like the demanding way in which this question quoted below was asked.....as i perceive it as basically suggesting i don't know what i'm talking about and as i've said i'm far from an expert like Bigguy who says he's been in the reptile game for 30 years and longer but i do have a fair grasp on the situation being discussed!!!


> I want you to tell me the exact line seperating the two.





> Now tell me what is to stop a pure Coastal mating with a pure Jungle along that line, or do all species know not to cross the border.


Question answered above...


> No it's not Browns, in general terms it's about intergrades and from what I can figure the word intergrade that you are so scared about and keeps you awake at night could be widely used for any subspecies in the wild with any areas that cross over into one anothers zones/areas.


Yeah sorry dee4 it's just that there's been about 3-4 threads in the last couple of days about diamond coastal intergrades and so far the only other intergrade brought up in this thread is jungle coastal intergrade is what i'm getting at.Also it beats me where you get the idea i'm scared of the word intergrade.....it actually annoys me because the word has been discussed to death and still will be i'm sure...or you're just joking and i don't see the funny side to it.And as for the rest of your sentence"tell me something i didn't already know!!!"

Now maybe Bob could you please tell us all your expert views on jungle coastal intergrades and maybe a few of the others dee4 originally asked about.....you say you have the knowledge so why not share it around,that's what the threads really about and everybody wants to know don't they???

I may be coming across a bit blunt but that's me,i'm pretty straight up and don't like to beat around the bush....and the discussion continues!!!


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## fishead (Mar 19, 2005)

Bigguy said a few posts ago that it is believed that snakes made their way down through the country via a land bridge and that diamonds most likely evolved from coastals. 
As we all know there is variation within populations and maybe as they ranged into more temperate country the darker animals were more successful due to more efficient heat absorbtion and natural selection brought about our diamonds? Is the "intergrade belt" an ancient example of a species adapting to a climate change and not actually a meeting of two variants? If so then that would be the case with all of the carpets?
Must admit that sounds a lot more plausible than the conventional thinking of two separate populations meeting at some point and interbreeding. 
If that is the case I wonder if there is in fact any readable genetic differences to be found between the two? Or any of the carpets for that matter? Note that I said readable.
I know jack about genetics but it would be very interesting to know hey.
Bye, Steve.


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## dee4 (Mar 19, 2005)

Thanks for ya input Browns


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

I think the reason there is no major difference in genes between the forms is because they most likely came from a single original species.

I know almost everyone will disagree but it is not really evolution when a single species branches into sub-species. The orignal species would have had the genetic information to create a wide variety of different sized and coloured/patterned offspring, as the snakes travelled down (unless they went up, who really knows for sure??) and came to areas that were colder the ones that were born with darker colours were able to survive the cold conditions due to better heat absortion, what this means is that only those specimens born with darker colours could survive there, because the others didn't, darker ones only had darker ones to breed with, therefore the ability to produced wide colour variants was slowly bred out and a stable colour form was created. This is natural selection, it is a distinct loss of genetic information.

You will never get a snake that looks exactly like a jungle carpet python from a diamond python because the genetic information is gone. However because they both come from the same original species they have almost identical DNA, but there is a difference because they have both retained and lost different parts of the original genes. Evolution is completely different, evoultion says that organisms started off with little genetic information and over time gained new information and became more complex. Natural selection is not about creating new species but rather dictating what can live where.

Therefore what has happened to these snakes is natural selection and not evolution. Just my opinion, I know it will not be accepted by most, if not all, but unless someone who knows alot about genetics can tell me that my concept of them is wrong, I will continue to hold to it.

Cheers.


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2005)

So what exactly is Diamond Python Syndrome??


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

I have no idea?? What is it??


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2005)

Do intergrades also suffer from DPS?


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## peterescue (Mar 19, 2005)

HAHA, wrangler, Natural selection is ONE of the theories of evolution. :roll:
The Galopogas Islands?


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## BROWNS (Mar 19, 2005)

> The orignal species would have had the genetic information to create a wide variety of different sized and coloured/patterned offspring, as the snakes travelled down (unless they went up, who really knows for sure??) and came to areas that were colder the ones that were born with darker colours were able to survive the cold conditions due to better heat absortion, what this means is that only those specimens born with darker colours could survive there, because the others didn't, darker ones only had darker ones to breed with, therefore the ability to produced wide colour variants was slowly bred out and a stable colour form was created. This is natural selection, it is a distinct loss of genetic information.


Why is it then that there can be several different colour forms of diamonds in the same general locality?Same with jungles,not all are black and gold/yellow but still thrive,what about black and white jungles found in very small pockets,why are they that colour then,please explain?Same with the variation in most pythons for that matter as well as green tree snakes as another example,blue phase,gold phase,green phase and mixtures of each?


> but unless someone who knows alot about genetics can tell me that my concept of them is wrong, I will continue to hold to it.



Time for sdaji's input i think he's the man you want to hear that from if he can explain in regular terminology :wink:


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2005)

If a Aussie GTP was bred with a New Guinea GTP....would the offspring technically be hybrids or intergrades. Or would they still be same species, even though they are technically different?


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

Greebo said:


> Do intergrades also suffer from DPS?


I don't know, do they??



peterescue said:


> HAHA, wrangler, Natural selection is ONE of the theories of evolution.


Then explain to me how the "natural selection" theory can stand alone as a sole means of evolution??


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> > The orignal species would have had the genetic information to create a wide variety of different sized and coloured/patterned offspring, as the snakes travelled down (unless they went up, who really knows for sure??) and came to areas that were colder the ones that were born with darker colours were able to survive the cold conditions due to better heat absortion, what this means is that only those specimens born with darker colours could survive there, because the others didn't, darker ones only had darker ones to breed with, therefore the ability to produced wide colour variants was slowly bred out and a stable colour form was created. This is natural selection, it is a distinct loss of genetic information.
> 
> 
> Why is it then that there can be several different colour forms of diamonds in the same general locality?Same with jungles,not all are black and gold/yellow but still thrive,what about black and white jungles found in very small pockets,why are they that colour then,please explain?Same with the variation in most pythons for that matter as well as green tree snakes as another example,blue phase,gold phase,green phase and mixtures of each?
> ...


Hot and cold are not the only adversities that an aminal faces when it encounters an environment, I never suggested that colour was the only means of "adapting" to an environment, I was responding to a previous post, not trying to expound the entire concept of natural selection.

If sdaji can show me that I have misunderstood genetics then I will accept my error. Would you if you were shown to be wrong?? I have never claimed to be an expert in genetics but I know this much.

If you had a snake, that could produce only three solid colour, either all offspring were red, green or blue. If you bred a pair and took all the blue ones, bred them only to other blue ones, and continued this for a long time, you would eventually end up with a sub-species of the original that would produced only blue snakes. Throw backs would be possible but very unlikely. It is very basic but hopefully you get the idea.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

peterescue said:


> HAHA, wrangler, Natural selection is ONE of the theories of evolution. :roll:
> The Galopogas Islands?


Out of curiosity, if there are more then ONE theory of evolution, then which one is correct?? I though the term "theory" actually meant reasonable fact or whatever??


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## BROWNS (Mar 19, 2005)

> If a Aussie GTP was bred with a New Guinea GTP....would the offspring technically be hybrids or intergrades. Or would they still be same species, even though they are technically different?


I would say they'd be hybrids although the Southern part of PNG was connected to Australia thousands of years ago...supposedly there is not enough dna evidence to seperate the two but there is a difference,when you start talking further North in PNG then the dna is different i think"please correct me if i'm wrong"although still morelia viridis!

Wrangler you just keep barking up that tree mate :wink:


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2005)

Thanks Browns. Just wanted to throw in my own hypothetical question.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> > If a Aussie GTP was bred with a New Guinea GTP....would the offspring technically be hybrids or intergrades. Or would they still be same species, even though they are technically different?
> 
> 
> I would say they'd be hybrids although the Southern part of PNG was connected to Australia thousands of years ago...supposedly there is not enough dna evidence to seperate the two but there is a difference,when you start talking further North in PNG then the dna is different i think"please correct me if i'm wrong"although still morelia viridis!
> ...


Actually they would still be the same species just as the various Morelia are the same species, the stable variations between them make the sub-species, although one or the other had to come first, so really one is a sub-species of the other.

Well why don't you chop the tree down with some compelling idea that is contrary to mine??


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## Pike01 (Mar 19, 2005)

Yep i have seen intergrades with what looked like they have dps, but then again they could have been hybrids cause i dont know their origin. The answer to where coastals become coastals and diamonds become diamonds is there is no answer, they are all morelia spilota. To put it in simple terms if you say like bob intergrades stop at Karuah that means that they wont breed with diamonds from Raymond terrace and raymond terrace ones wont breed with Newcastle one and so on, there is always gene flow going both ways, up and down.and the same goes in northern NSW


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

Bob has also said that there probably are hybrids where each forms meets, actually his other posts said that 20kms away the pure ones start, surely nobody thought he meant that there were no snakes in the 20kms that seperated them??


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## BROWNS (Mar 19, 2005)

> Actually they would still be the same species just as the various Morelia are the same species, the stable variations between them make the sub-species, although one or the other had to come first, so really one is a sub-species of the other.


So you're now going to argue with dna results???Could you be able to please explain the parrallel evolution theory behind GTP'S and emerald tree boas...my turn to throw in something hypothetical again :lol: 


> Well why don't you chop the tree down with some compelling idea that is contrary to mine??


Nah thanks man,you're doing a great job mate,you've put forward some good theories but are still off the rails!!! I am pretty sure that most if not all of what i have said is contrary to what you have said....wake up and smell the roses dude :roll:


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## dee4 (Mar 19, 2005)

> I know almost everyone will disagree but it is not really evolution when a single species branches into sub-species. The orignal species would have had the genetic information to create a wide variety of different sized and coloured/patterned offspring,



So technically the weeker died off and the stronger lived!!!
Hmm, I think that could be a form of evolving.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

Greebo said:


> If a Aussie GTP was bred with a New Guinea GTP....would the offspring technically be hybrids or intergrades. Or would they still be same species, even though they are technically different?


I personally would term them to be "locality hybrids", just like a diamond X coastal. I say locality because the same species breeding cannot truly be called a hybrid, but for the sake of maintaining the various forms they cannot be named as pure anything.



I nearly said:


> Hmm... Its been a while since someone posted, something must be brewing, I hope it isnt hypothetical conjecture... :lol:


The quote above is what I was just about to post, but I guess there wasn't anything afterall.



BROWNS said:


> So you're now going to argue with dna results???


So DNA states that these two forms of GTP are seperate species??? I doubt it.



dee4 said:


> So technically the weeker died off and the stronger lived!!!


Actually none of the snakes were weak, just not suited to the environment.
--- EDIT ---
It would be just like you trying to live in the north pole without any warmth, it doesn't make you weak, just simply not made for it.
--- EDIT ---



BROWNS said:


> wake up and smell the roses dude


I am barking up a rose bush dude, I can smell the roses fine... :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2005)

Greebs all spilota get diamond python syndrome that includes intergrade colour forms and carpet including jungle.Diamonds mostly get it ,ok when your small dark and growing but when your adult and slow down the energy levels being taken in cant be used.So when your a crawling solar cell that gets too much heat and too much food low parrisite levels and cant lose the pent up energy in maternal incubation you have a break down mental and physicaly that manifests itself in a wide variety of symptoms.


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## Pike01 (Mar 19, 2005)

snake wrangler, you missed the point, I never said or implied there was 20kms with no snakes, my point was the opposite. THERE IS A CONTINOUS GENE FLOW. You can say that at karuah you can start to notice carpet traits and pattern but you cant say that intergrades north of there diamonds south of there. It is one species that slowly changes. Have a look in cogger, the carpet there is obviously an intergrade. So please dont twist what i say to make me look wrong.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

oldfella said:


> So when your a crawling solar cell that gets too much heat and too much food low parrisite levels and cant lose the pent up energy in maternal incubation you have a break down mental and physicaly that manifests itself in a wide variety of symptoms.


I don't think I have ever heard this idea about DPS before. More hypotheticals... :lol: Just kidding. It actually sounds like an interesting idea.



Pike01 said:


> snake wrangler, you missed the point, I never said or implied there was 20kms with no snakes, my point was the opposite. THERE IS A CONTINOUS GENE FLOW. You can say that at karuah you can start to notice carpet traits and pattern but you cant say that intergrades north of there diamonds south of there. It is one species that slowly changes. Have a look in cogger, the carpet there is obviously an intergrade. So please dont twist what i say to make me look wrong.


I never said you said anything about 20kms!!! I said Bob said in a previous post, my question about anyone thinking Bob meant there were no snakes in that 20kms, was directed to *anyone* who thought it, if you never thought it then why did you think I was talking to you, you placed yourself within the *anyone* that I spoke to. Read my posts properly before posting a reply to me, If you have something to add to the current discussions then please do, but dont try and attack my character for no reason. :shock:


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2005)

I've just been tidying up the photo galleries (again), Snakewrangler, I notice you have only 3 photos in your gallery. You should really update it and add some more pics. How many snakes have you got now?


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## dee4 (Mar 19, 2005)

> Actually none of the snakes were weak, just not suited to the environment.
> --- EDIT ---
> It would be just like you trying to live in the north pole without any warmth, it doesn't make you weak, just simply not made for it.
> --- EDIT ---
> ...


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 19, 2005)

Well those terms really do not convey what you mean, but seeing as though you explained it like that then yes, the weaker died, but what does this have to do with evolution??

I actually have three albums in my gallery, and they represent four snakes, I now have 5 snakes, but have not got around to adding photos of the new addition. I also have 3 water dragons and a turtle, but I am not sure what this has to do with our discussions??
--- EDIT ---
Actually I don't have my female coastal pics up there yet, so there are only three snakes in the albums.
--- EDIT ---


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## Pike01 (Mar 19, 2005)

Wrangler, Thought you were replying to my previous post, I'm just Dumb i guess. Didnt notice i was attacking your character, I just said dont twist my comments to suite your own argument, sorry. 
( but isnt that what you just did again)


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## dee4 (Mar 19, 2005)

What is evolution?
There would be a wide variety of answers to that to I suppose, but in your case with what you have stated would come under a category of "Adaption and Natural selection", wouldn't you think?
So then with that out of the way, yes, with one particular type of species dying off and another surviving would be evolution. That's what I have to say about that.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

Pike01 said:


> So please dont twist what i say to make me look wrong.


Accusing me of trying to make you look wrong is saying that I am a deceitful person who deliberately tried to attack your integrity, there is no twisting there, you done it, it is as simple as that.



Pike01 said:


> I'm just Dumb i guess


I never suggested or thought this, you simply misunderstood what I said, if you had of read my post and this thread properly you would have seen that my post was actually referring to previous posts by others, which I admit could have been accompanied by a few quotes to make things clearer, so I am partially to blame as well.



dee4 said:


> What is evolution?
> There would be a wide variety of answers to that to I suppose, but in your case with what you have stated would come under a category of "Adaption and Natural selection", wouldn't you think?
> So then with that out of the way, yes, with one particular type of species dying off and another surviving would be evolution. That's what I have to say about that.


Evolution could be categorized in one word, CHANGE!!! Adjusting to an environment or dying because you cannot is not the kind of change needed for evolution to stand, adaption is having all the characteristics needed to survive and then a natural occurance takes place that brings those existing characteristics out. This is not changing, but rather specialising what you already have, not generating new genetic information.


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## BROWNS (Mar 20, 2005)

Man i hate it when you type out a reaasonably long and good reply,hit submit and have to bloody login again and you lose everything you wrote..this site sux for that i was inactive for 5 minutes max...what's the go there?I'll try and do it again :roll: 


> Greebs all spilota get diamond python syndrome that includes intergrade colour forms and carpet including jungle.


Sorry olddude but you lost me there...how the hell can a jungle get diamond python syndrome..come on now,it would at least be called jungle carpet syndrome which i've never heard of any jungle getting anything like DPS!


> snake wrangler, you missed the point, I never said or implied there was 20kms with no snakes, my point was the opposite. THERE IS A CONTINOUS GENE FLOW.


pike that's exactly what i was getting at before when Bob said that intergrades stop being intergrades and only 20 k's away there are pure coastals with no trace of diamond,but then says yes an intergade from the most Northern part of it's range could easily breed with a pure coastal which i will say again and is just my opinion but a hypothetical one which is that it would still be an intergrade,an overlapping of 2 species in the wild and maybe in 100 years or so give or take a few here and there,the range for intergrades could extend further North than it does now and possibly further South too...does anyone else see where i'm coming from or what i'm getting at?"contradiction maybe?"


> If you have something to add to the current discussions then please do, but dont try and attack my character for no reason.


I think what pike just said in his last 2 posts added a brilliant point to the discussion and i can't see where he attacked your character in anyway,and if he did i'm sure there'd be a good reason..


> Sorry, maybe not politically correct in that one but technically the lesser suited(weaker) of that particular species would die off. Hence the more suited(stronger) would survive.


Isn't that theory survival of the fittest?


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## BROWNS (Mar 20, 2005)




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## africancichlidau (Mar 20, 2005)

Browns, do yaself a favour and click the "remember me every visit button" on the login page


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

--- EDITED ---

This post did have a purpose and the contents were not meant as real feelings by me. Browns is obviously not replying so it cannot fulfil its purpose, I am removing it to prevent anyone from maintaining the wrong idea.

It's purpose was to show browns that when someone says something about you that is untrue, it is an obvious attack on your character and who you are.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

Have you been drinking? It still is a form of evolution. Wouldn't you think Adaption, natural selections or characteristics all stand to be one of a minority of things that do make a CHANGE that is needed for something to survive. EVOLUTION my fine feathered friend isn't prejudice, it just occurs. Anything that makes a changed has evolved in some way or form.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

dee4 said:


> Have you been drinking? It still is a form of evolution. Wouldn't you think Adaption, natural selections or characteristics all stand to be one of a minority of things that do make a CHANGE that is needed for something to survive. EVOLUTION my fine feathered friend isn't prejudice, it just occurs. Anything that makes a changed has evolved in some way or form.


But now you are trying to bridge the gap without a bridge!!! A snake adapting is nothing like scum to man evolution. They are completely different, the snake had everything needed to adapt, the scum that we supposedly came from had almost nothing needed to produce us. If you cannot see the difference then you *may* have the problem.

There is even a bigger problem which still isn't answered, which version of evolution is true?? I have this question thrown at me many times relating to my own beliefs, but people fail to see that the grass isn't any greener on the other side.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

Ppl do fail to see that green pasture, but evolution is evolution isn't it? Like I said no prejudice in any way or form!!!!


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

Yes evolution is evolution, but natural selection is not evolution. Evoultion "adds information" natural selection/adaption "takes information", they are the complete opposite of each other.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

I give up, where's the wall?


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## BROWNS (Mar 20, 2005)

This post did have a purpose and the contents were not meant as real feelings by me. Browns is obviously not replying so it cannot fulfil its purpose, I am removing it to prevent anyone from maintaining the wrong idea. 

It's purpose was to show browns that when someone says something about you that is untrue, it is an obvious attack on your character and who you are. 




> But now you are trying to bridge the gap without a bridge!!! A snake adapting is nothing like scum to man evolution. They are completely different, the snake had everything needed to adapt, the scum that we supposedly came from had almost nothing needed to produce us. If you cannot see the difference then you may have the problem.
> 
> There is even a bigger problem which still isn't answered, which version of evolution is true?? I have this question thrown at me many times relating to my own beliefs, but people fail to see that the grass isn't any greener on the other side.


What on earth are you on about...i think you need to move to greener pastures and believe me the "grass"IS greener on the other side.I think you're now just commenting for arguements sake...


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

Can you not see that evoultion and natural selection/adaption are competing theories, they do not compliment each other. If both were the same then as evolution adds information, natural selection would come along and take that information again, the process would get nowhere fast.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

BROWNS said:


> This post did have a purpose and the contents were not meant as real feelings by me. Browns is obviously not replying so it cannot fulfil its purpose, I am removing it to prevent anyone from maintaining the wrong idea.
> 
> It's purpose was to show browns that when someone says something about you that is untrue, it is an obvious attack on your character and who you are.
> 
> ...


Clearly you didn't see the post before I edited it, I did not want to leave the post the way it was without a response from you because it would mislead people into thinking that I said the things I said and meant them. It was basically just trying to show you that when someone says something about you that is not true, it is a direct attack on your character, pike01 was making me look bad by saying I was trying to make him (is pike01 as him??) look wrong, if I had not responded people may have believed this when is was purely a misinterpretation of what I said, of which I was partially to blame.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

Can I have some of what your having.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

Please, I promise I wont evolve.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

Misdirection, the best way to get out of a losing battle unscaved. You cannot answer my last post because there is a glaring contradiction, evolution cannot work if it takes what it has just added. It just doesn't make sense. I cannot understand the problem, I am almost fighting for evolution (this should read adaption) and you are fighting back. :shock:


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## BROWNS (Mar 20, 2005)

You have done hard drugs in the past haven't you?Come on now i won't tell anyone but i recognise the signs all too well!!


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## Parko (Mar 20, 2005)

There's a place somewhere where camels have callouses on their knee pads before they are born, it's an "improvement" on new borns who have no callouses on their knees and must scrape their knees on the sand which must be a real issue for camels. 
cheers hope that helps..


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## BROWNS (Mar 20, 2005)

lmao...camels!what camels?


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## playwell (Mar 20, 2005)

This thread needs to be put down, I don't care if it's done in an unhumanly manner either. 

JUST KILL IT PLEASE


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## Greebo (Mar 20, 2005)

> JUST KILL IT PLEASE


 I'd like to but it seems to have evolved and now has a life of it's own.


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## bigguy (Mar 20, 2005)

Pike raised a question that I have thought about for a long time. Whats to stop intergrades breeding with pures and spreading north and south increasing the range. If this did happen by now there would be no pures left, so whats the answer.

Maybe its to do with DNA. DNA tests have shown that there is a difference between the intergrades and pures. Maybe, just maybe the two can tell they are different in the wild and do not mix often.

In the wild we often find similar species living side by side, however they don't appear to interbreed. Put them in captivity and they often interbreed as they dont have a choise who to breed with. I believe this is the case with pures and intergrades. Its the only answer to explain why this contamination does not occur throughout the range of pures. In the wild they can tell, possibly by pheremones that they are different and rarely interbreed 

As for the 20klm I mentioned, I was just stating as an example only, that only 20klms from where the intergrades appear to stop, we only find pures. There is no gap between them. They live side by side on the border areas.


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## bigguy (Mar 20, 2005)

As for the question put forward re Aussie Greens breeding with PNG Greens, this cant happen in the wild. There tends to be a ocean inbetween them. But if it did happen they would be a hybrid.

The paper written in SA on the DNA of GTP's showed that the GTP's from Australia and southern PNG are very similar. But it does go on to say there appears to be 4 variations in the species. As once explained to me imagine these southern GTP's were in one room. There is enough variation in them to put them in 4 different corners of the room. These 4 variations could be deemed sub species. The northern form is in a different room and probably should be a seperate species.

Australian Carpets are exactly the same. DNA has shown that the southern PNG Carpet, the Top End, Coastal, Jungles, Murray/Darlings, Diamonds and their relevant intergrades are all from the same species, with slight variations with each sub species. However, where a major gap has occurred between the Carpets such as Centralians and SouthWestern we find that they are completely different species.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

bigguy said:


> There tends to be a ocean inbetween them.


This would pose a little problem wouldn't it.



bigguy said:


> The paper written in SA on the DNA of GTP's showed that the GTP's from Australia and southern PNG are very similar. But it does go on to say there appears to be 4 variations in the species. As once explained to me imagine these southern GTP's were in one room. There is enough variation in them to put them in 4 different corners of the room. These 4 variations could be deemed sub species. The northern form is in a different room and probably should be a seperate species.


So are the northern form classified as a seperate species or is it too close to really make a decision either way??


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## Pike01 (Mar 20, 2005)

Yep i have thought long and hard about it too, i was thinking maybe be cause the gene flow is going both ways it is like the tide in an estuary, the sea water is pushing upstream and the fresh water is downstream , there is always brackish water at the same spot. Unless of course there is something external that changes things one way or the other, like a king tide - more salty water, or a flood- more freshwater. Or maybe the intergrade zone is slowly growing and in another 20,000 years they will all look the same. I have heard this question asked to Rick Shine, he didnt know the answer, just said maybe you have to look like a diamond where diamonds live, an intergrade where intergrades are found and a carpet where carpets are found. All only theories, not saying i know the answer or that any of these are the answer.

Bob, havent seen any of the DNA work but would be really interested to read it, Who did it?


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## bigguy (Mar 20, 2005)

Steve Donnelly of the SA Museum did the GTP paper. As for the Carpets work, I am not sure who did the work, I only know of it a Dave Williams from this site was involved and he imformed me of the results.


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## bigguy (Mar 20, 2005)

Pike, if they did freely interbreed at the borders they would spread at a very fast rate and the borders would move a great deal each year, yet the northern border has not moved to my knowledge at all over the last 40 years.

This should show they dont interbreed often at the borders, so they must be able to tell the difference between themselves and not interbreed.


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## bigguy (Mar 20, 2005)

Sw, the northern PNG GTP's are so far removed from their southern cousins that one day they will be seperated as a different species. but I dont think its happened yet.


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## angelrose (Mar 20, 2005)

Man i love this site, everytime there is a mention of integrades it turns into a 12 page saga... lol, im not even going to join in, i just wanted to have a giggle.... there you go...

Angel


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## Pike01 (Mar 20, 2005)

Big guy, 40 years is the life of one carpet, If they did breed at this cut off point, some would look more like carpets , some more like intergrades, which is exactly what happens at this area, thats why the ones further north lookmore like carpets and down south they look more like diamonds. If intergrades are a different sub species and not breeding with carpets and diamonds, they would all look the same.


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## indicus (Mar 20, 2005)

"I agree, i believe they do in most cases know the difference with their own kind and they tend to mate with there own kind....obviously where the two gene pools occur to meet, there has been interbreeding, the result is a combination of the two, which over time became its own morph and mates with its own kind.......this may explain why they dont spread dramaticaly into each pure gene pool on either side.....who really knows?"


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## bigguy (Mar 20, 2005)

Pike, no they wouldn't. Intergrades are genectically different from pures, but they don't all look the same. They are where Carpets slowly turn into Diamonds so at the northern end they more closely resemble Carpets, in the middle 50/50 and at the southern ends more like Diamonds. So by looking throughout their range you can see the change taking place from Carpets to Diamonds. 

If the two races freely interbred the northern border would have easily moved from Coffs to nearly Grafton in just 40 years, yet the border hasn't moved at all


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

I think it is safe to say that everyone believes there would be some kind of interbreeding going on where each forms range meets. Maybe the reason you see some fairly varied patterned diamonds within the diamond range testifies to the fact that the integrades are moving into other ranges, just a thought, I mean it would be sad to see the various forms "tainted" by having integrades mixed in, but maybe it is inevitable, lets hope not.


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## Stevo (Mar 20, 2005)

I would like an experts view on what this is an intergrade or a diamond, I do know its locale.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

> If your happy and you know it clap your hands



clap clap
Pics don't do justice for the python stevo. 

Different light, different angle may give more detail to the colouring, I can't tell the diff on the patterns with that one.
I'm interested aswell as to see what others think as I am no expert!


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## bigguy (Mar 20, 2005)

dee4, I agree with you. I would want to see a better picture first before giving any comment. That ones just to dark to tell.


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## Stevo (Mar 20, 2005)

Well if i told u its locale u wouldnt need another pic but as it is coming up for a shed and is dark the best way to explain is it is very much black with "hard" or definate yellow not like a greenish yellow or fluorescent yellow more a bright yellow.


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## Stevo (Mar 20, 2005)

And there is a good closeup of pattern there


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

Where is it then?


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

> And there is a good closeup of pattern there



Where is it then?


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

Now I'm repeating myself.


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## peterescue (Mar 20, 2005)

SnakeWrangler said:


> Greebo said:
> 
> 
> > Do intergrades also suffer from DPS?
> ...



It is one of the theories of evolution. There are quite a few. Som e go hand in hand and others are addendum to existing theory.
Whether it is adding or removing information is only relevant to the ongoing existance of the species. losing some information can be useful for survival.
You cant get over that hump that evolution exists even though you use it to reinforce your arguements. It is the theories that are disputed by various ideologies not evolution itself. Those who dispute evolution itself a just deluded.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

Well this will be my last post about evolution as it is going nowhere just like every other time.



peterescue said:


> It is one of the theories of evolution. There are quite a few.


First you say this...



peterescue said:


> Som e go hand in hand and others are addendum to existing theory.


Then in the next sentence you say the complete opposite...



peterescue said:


> It is the theories that are disputed by various ideologies not evolution itself.


Then later on you say this...

:?

How can you say there are *many theories*, then describe these opposing theories as all being *complimentary*, then go onto say that the theories are *seperated by opposing ideologies*!!!

You just said three different and opposing things about evolution, and you expect me to accept it??

If there is uncertainty behind evolution, how then can it be so certain?? I cannot say what I believe is right beyond a doubt because there is room for doubt, you however, even though there is clear doubt (you said yourself, even though you then said the opposite) have no problem asserting the opposite of what you yourself state...

I have one word for you: *CONTRADICTION*

You do what I do, then call me deluded for doing it!!! That is laughable...


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
:cry: :wink: :roll:     :shock: :? 8) :lol: :x   :cry: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :wink:
I started to laugh then I just didn't know what I was doing.
SW you disagree, then you agree!!! Which are you, stupid or as stupid does.
No wonder you can't work it out, maybe you should try shutting up before you type, you may make sense of yourself.


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## peterescue (Mar 20, 2005)

Good night Elmer :roll: :lol:


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

At least I have no need to resort to name calling to make myself feel good.

Even though I will not discuss evolution itself anymore, I would like you to show me where I contradicted myself??


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

> I cannot say what I believe is right beyond a doubt because there is room for doubt



Doubt!!!!!!!!!!


Do I need say anymore?


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

You are a man after my own heart SW, not only can't you except the inevitable but you deny it aswell.
Bloody marvelous. :roll:


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

You really have a funny way of thinking, and yes you need to say more...

When have I ever said that there was no room for doubt in what I beleve?? And how is this "agreeing and disagreeing"??


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2005)

Browns in reply to how the hell can jungles get diamond python syndrome,mate they are all the same thing.The diamond sub species suffers it the worst cause many herps keep them as though they are bearded dragons,try keeping an adult size (black alpine) blotched blue tongue hot most of the time.I have seen coastal carpets and dare i say it intergrades with the jerky nervous head tremors and moving side ways,disorientation etc.Seen and heard of numerous jungles with the same condition.We had a discussion about it at hawks heps and even Wells agreed that he had seen jungles with spilota syndrome going back to the 60s.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

Do you have a girlfriend or anything else, so arguementative. If you like you can pm Browns and get some chill pills, they work for him. I've tried em and shoot they are BLOODY MARVELOUS.


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## SnakeWrangler (Mar 20, 2005)

Alright I have had enough, you make a claim against me, then when I challenge it you see that you cannot carry on with your dribble so you post some insane post that means nothing, you had best stay out of things like this, you make it appear as if they go over your head, or something, I don't know. At least I post *reasons for why I think this or that*, you and a few other people just simply say things to the effect of "this is how it is, you are wrong just accept it".

No matter what is posted in this thread, I will not respond, it is simply a waste of time. Unless someone with the ability to give reasons for what they believe, wether I can understand them or not, makes a post, I am ignoring this thread.


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## dee4 (Mar 20, 2005)

I started this thread Sw, are you asking me to stay out of my own thread?
:? :?


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## Sdaji (Mar 20, 2005)

> Time for sdaji's input i think he's the man you want to hear that from if he can explain in regular terminology



I'm not getting involved in this circus, but if anyone wants to discuss it rationally and calmly, I'm happy to do so one on one.


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## BROWNS (Mar 21, 2005)

> Pike, if they did freely interbreed at the borders they would spread at a very fast rate and the borders would move a great deal each year, yet the northern border has not moved to my knowledge at all over the last 40 years.
> 
> This should show they dont interbreed often at the borders, so they must be able to tell the difference between themselves and not interbreed.
> 
> What's 40 years in comparison to thousands when talking intergrades...that is what you're talking about isn't it Bob..you seem to be evading my questions to you.... i answered your questions of myselof so come on and show us what you're made of Bigguy!!!


You know what bigguyu or Bob for getting personal,i reckon you are full of sh1TE...The border may not have moved n your 40 years which is nothing in copmparison to the 1000's of years it took to create this species....why would ther Northern Range or Southern not extend further than t does now in another 40.0000 years..you think you know it all but in the end nobody does but i know you'd like to think you do but you know youself you don't......why don't you answer the question you asked me?Come on mate,don't be shy ,you haven't in other relevant discussions!!!

Don't be shy and as you asked of me i will ask of you,"Tell me where the range of intergardes stop and pure coastals begin as well as where pure jungles and coastals do the same....you think you have all the answers but i know for fact you don't!!!" Where is a decent theory from you yet a plausable one?


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