# Australian Representative Herp Body



## champagne (May 9, 2014)

Owzi said:


> I'm sure many private breeders would love the chance to help with captive breeding programs of endangered species from the 'Australian continent'- but that comes back to Gavin Bedford & Greg Miles Australian representative herp body which the hobby already seems to have destroyed. I'll stop thinking out loud now




The whole australian representative herp body thing was to much messing about and not enough action... If they just said what they wanted to achieve and what they needed from people, it would of happened. If people saw what benefits they would personally get out of it, they would get behind it. It would of been better to say we tried and failed, then to sit back and see the nsw type caging rules be forced across the board (Victoria they are coming).

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't base the scales and tales expo on support.... I emailed them and sent messages on facebook trying to get times of your talk as I couldn't stay all day at the expo and got no reply. when I was there it was very poorly advertised when and where you would be doing the talk, maybe getting on you tube or other social networks ie reptile radio where you can reach a larger viewer range would help. I think a lot of people still question what this national body wants to achieve. I also think that it should just be done and if it falls flat on its face then at least the people involved can say we tried. Put a list together with problems this national body wants to fix or achieve and it might get more support as people might see something that affects them or something they can benefit from ie no reptile imports but maybe allowing exports this would also increase the dollar value of the hobby therefore getting larger financial support the body will need to survive long term.

This is what I posted and sent to Gavin, everything seems to be dead since.


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## R33C3 (May 9, 2014)

how many herp representatives do we have?


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## -Peter (May 10, 2014)

Ok, less facetious then. There seems to be an attitude that someone else needs to get it together so that the rest of the herp community can reap the benefits of an umbrella herp keepers organisation. What really needs to happen is that all of you need to join your local herp groups and societies, then combine the organisations to have a national body that they all subscribe to for lobbying purposes.

Gavin floated the idea but it is not his responsibility to move forward while we whinge.


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## Bart70 (May 10, 2014)

-Peter said:


> Ok, less facetious then. There seems to be an attitude that someone else needs to get it together so that the rest of the herp community can reap the benefits of an umbrella herp keepers organisation. What really needs to happen is that all of you need to join your local herp groups and societies, then combine the organisations to have a national body that they all subscribe to for lobbying purposes.
> 
> Gavin floated the idea but it is not his responsibility to move forward while we whinge.



Couldn't agree more.


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## Jacknife (May 10, 2014)

This sounds about as easy to do as a claustrophobes convention...


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## Sean_L (May 10, 2014)

I think the problem stems from a number of issues:

1. Lazy reptile keepers who would like the idea of a national body that protects them from ridiculous legislation made by individuals with no real knowledge of reptile requirements, but who take no steps to make it happen themselves

2. The fact that the hobby is full of so much dislike for one another. Its honestly like a bunch of frat boys sometimes. Instead of appreciation, theres jealousy. And instead of combined efforts, theres attempts to hinder others at every opportunity to somehow get ahead

3. The fact that the hobby spans such a large audience. A classic car club (for example) has a very small and specific range of people. They may vary in their backgrounds of course, and their opinions in some things, but they all love and own classic cars and take whatever measures they feel necessary, and go to their own varying lengths, to continue their passion.
While you could say that its the same story with the herp hobby, Id disagree.
Were such a varied bunch, with completely varying degrees of interest and passion. For some reason its near impossible to define the 'reptile keeper' these days as its so easy for 'Joe' to go out and buy a snake, keep it, breed it, get bored and sell off everything to the next Joe. Im not saying this should be in any way changed, Im simply trying to show that this hobby is so accessible and attracts such a broad range of people that its near impossible to group them all, except that they all possess, or wish to possess, something with scales. Its makes the idea of a National body all the more challenging

4. The idea, as far as Im aware, is relatively new. Just as the hobby is relatively new in the broader public sense. The fact that reptile keeping hasnt run its course for long means that there's not yet a strong enough interest in the idea. The example of course is that if we wait another few years, and the laws for reptile keeping are tightened and things like enclosure size are nationally enforced, then the interest will strengthen overnight. What Im getting at is that the idea is a bit ahead of its time. Its like trying to convince a nation to make a preemptive strike. The average keeper wont budge until they clearly see, and experience first hand, the ramifications for not having acted sooner.

5. Perhaps a little fear. Whats to say that the heads of the national body dont take things too far. They'll be at the helm of the entire herp community. Im only postulating here, but perhaps some keepers feel thats its better to continue for as long as possible under the current rules and wait for the worst to come, than force a change and perhaps feel the consequences sooner than later

6. Some keepers either dont know the idea exists/ dont understand the reasons, or purpose of the idea/ dont care whether it happens or not. Think of it this way. Why would 'Joe' (hes popular today) care if he had to get a bigger enclosure for his pet snake. Its no skin off his nose. It only really affects keepers with larger numbers of animals and limited space/budgets. Id wager the majority of reptile keepers, most likey with fewer animals or very slowly growing collections, arent concerned at all. 

Me, personally....... I like the idea. But thats mainly because I feel most of what the government does is based on how much money or support theyll receive from implementing an idea. Thats not the sort of 'Body' I want at the helm of my passion. Reason enough in my opinion.


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## junglepython2 (May 10, 2014)

The main issue I see with support for a national body is people are sitting back waiting to see what direction it takes on the big divisive issues in the hobby before committing.
The two main issues that splits the hobby at the moment would be exotics and hybrids. I think if any body or committee was overly pro or anti on either of these issues it would half any support from the wider community and be subjected to constant undermining resulting in failure.

I think if at least initially it stuck to wider issues that most keepers would agree on, such as legislated caging requirements, undue licensing requirements/restrictions, sorting out the import/export issues and discrepancies between states and changing the notion of captive animals as wildlife, it would gather much wider support.


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## champagne (May 10, 2014)

-Peter said:


> Ok, less facetious then. There seems to be an attitude that someone else needs to get it together so that the rest of the herp community can reap the benefits of an umbrella herp keepers organisation. What really needs to happen is that all of you need to join your local herp groups and societies, then combine the organisations to have a national body that they all subscribe to for lobbying purposes.
> 
> Gavin floated the idea but it is not his responsibility to move forward while we whinge.



Yes Gavin did float the idea but when he did get the support he was expecting he stopped. My point is the support is there and someone with the no how needs to do it. "Herp groups or societies" lol how did they go with the nsw caging rules? We need something more like usark and people will get behind an organisation like that.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 10, 2014)

As a participant in the "herp groups and societies" negotiations with NSW NPWS, I'd like to know just what your smart comment about caging rules implies champagne. Similarly I've been involved with Gavin's recent excursion into the very difficult area of uniting the varied and fragmented bunch that reptile keepers in this country are. You seem to know just what is needed champagne, so I suggest you chuck in your job, spend a few thousand bucks of your own, and weeks of your time travelling the country to canvass opinions of reptile keepers Australia-wide, and put a strategy in place for us all to follow.

It's as easy as that... but until you are prepared to do that, you're just spouting claptrap.

Jamie


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## champagne (May 10, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> As a participant in the "herp groups and societies" negotiations with NSW NPWS, I'd like to know just what your smart comment about caging rules implies champagne. Similarly I've been involved with Gavin's recent excursion into the very difficult area of uniting the varied and fragmented bunch that reptile keepers in this country are. You seem to know just what is needed champagne, so I suggest you chuck in your job, spend a few thousand bucks of your own, and weeks of your time travelling the country to canvass opinions of reptile keepers Australia-wide, and put a strategy in place for us all to follow.
> 
> It's as easy as that... but until you are prepared to do that, you're just spouting claptrap.
> 
> Jamie



I thought it was pretty clear but anyway I'll explain... Did the herp groups and societies have enough power to stop the bs caging rules in nsw? No so really it was just a joke and waste of time that they were there. You can cry all you want it's the facts...

As for having to travel the country canvassing opinions, there is a thing called photos, internet... Social media is a cheap and easy way to get the word out, something that clearly the people trying to get this off the ground know nothing about. Yes it would take time and money, clearly Gavin has the time or he wouldn't of bothered starting this whole thing and maybe if the message was put out there the money thing wouldn't be an issue.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 10, 2014)

More claptrap. It was pretty clear and frankly, pretty damned offensive considering the time & effort that a dozen of NSW's most experienced herpers put into trying to win this for keepers in this state. You have no idea what you're talking about champagne - you should change your name to plonk - something a lot less sophisticated.

Actually, plonker would be appropriate...

Jamie


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## zulu (May 10, 2014)

We need an experienced person that has not been involved in any disasters like the WA herp licensing or NSW cage standards > so previous applicants should not be encouraged to apply.
I can do the job for a company car like a mercedes ,400 K ,credit card that i can use for call girls and massages.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 10, 2014)

Just a bit more info on the group negotiating with NPWS in NSW, it included John Weigel (ARP), Drs Glenn Shea (Sydney Uni) and Peter Harlow (Taronga), Mike Duncan (President AHS), Gerry Swan (author), and Anthony Stimson amongst others with combined experience of around 300 years. But then, perhaps you could do better champagne... you would know so much more than these guys, and you're clearly a good negotiator...

Jamie


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## chimerapro (May 10, 2014)

Build it and they will come! and the organisation that does get the ball rolling needs to be as impartial as humanly possible. Somebody did attempt to get some form of a ball rolling by creating a Facebook page: "Support Page for The National Australian Reptile Keepers Regulatory Body" and they tried to remain impartial and anonymous but due to industry "big wigs" perception of this person it was slandered and the support page was shot down in flames (its still running and waiting for somebody or group to take the reins). Nobody else was willing to get off their backsides and at least highlight the idea (further than what had already been done) and get the spark happening in the minds of the wider keeper community, credit to them I think. (it was myself who created the page on the guise of handing it over to somebody willing to take it to the next step and also to show support to the idea in turn I thought highlighting the idea with the entire community) but this is sadly not what happened  
Maybe we should get "he who shall not be named" to start the organisation and then at least somebody may get up and make one in competition or we could all join voldyhoser's body just to vote him out and take the reins from him haha.
Too much division and petty childish squabbling in the industry for this pipe dream of an idea to get any further than the ideas stage. Maybe in 50yrs when all the whiny, bitchy, immature and competitive people in the hobby are long dead and gone maybe then the idea will get a foothold and take off. USARK has it's haters and competition so what real hope do we have? I try and think positive and hope it will happen in my lifetime but it doesn't look good


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## Pythoninfinite (May 10, 2014)

I'm with you on that one chimerapro. A few years ago we tried to get the National Reptile Keepers Association off the ground, but (especially here on APS) it became extremely personal, insulting and just plain nasty that it became all too hard. So many agendas out there, and truly, not one of the original participants had a personal agenda of any kind except to promote dialogue between bureaucrats and keepers, but the insults and cries of elitism came thick and fast. Getting consensus across such a diverse and needy group with such bizarre regulations from state to state is all but impossible.

Jamie


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## chimerapro (May 10, 2014)

I remember years ago at a Qld reptile expo John Weigel gave a talk on the same idea, loved the talk but it went no further. Gavin's talk at the last expo in Qld was poorly promoted, showcased in a very inappropriate setting and very disrespectfully talk through by many, yet I loved it also and it was a more in depth talk yet nothing has happened from there either.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 10, 2014)

I agree with you re Gavin's presentation - it was very disappointing for him as well. But it's an example of one of the big difficulties - Queenslanders, by & large, have a pretty good system, with limited intrusion and easy paperwork, unlike almost every other state. So Queenslanders are probably less energised than those in the other states when it comes to feeling threatened by bureaucracy, thus it's probably not the best place to start the ball rolling. WA might be a different story though - stupid regulations that reflect no conservation values whatsoever, and a very intrusive bureaucracy...

Jamie


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## zulu (May 10, 2014)

Transferring all our reptiles to our own private registry and cutting out the parks and wildlife is whats needed ,at the worst they would send us to manus island or PNG.


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## Bart70 (May 10, 2014)

champagne said:


> I thought it was pretty clear but anyway I'll explain... Did the herp groups and societies have enough power to stop the bs caging rules in nsw? No so really it was just a joke and waste of time that they were there. You can cry all you want it's the facts...



You clearly have no idea or understanding of what actually occurred in relation to the introduction of the NSW CoPs (....that is what they are actually called....not the 'Caging Rules').

Good luck in trying to get anything at all moving........ lack of understanding and desire to want to downgrade those with significant industry experience and knowledge who fought the battle (and lost it to politics.....not fact or inability) is not going to be me with much support - particularly from those that can sort the hay from the chaff.


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## junglepython2 (May 10, 2014)

I don't think anyone is doubting the experience and effort that went into the fight against the NSW caging requirements Jaime, but at the end of the day it failed. Governments don't necessarily listen to reason and sound scientific advice. Sheer numbers, political clout and know how are unfortunately much more important.

Unfortunately we are up against government advisors who think reptile keepers are crooks and a highly organised and well represented animal activist groups. I don't think the current herp societies have the numbers even if combined that would be required to effect the change that is needed. I dare say the vast majority of keepers are not a member of any herp society. A national alliance needs to recruit from a much wider catchment area.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 10, 2014)

The problem with the NSW negotiations was that they weren't actually negotiations. The NPWS operatives had an outcome that they wanted to achieve regardless of input from anyone else - the canvassing of opinion from experienced keepers was just to make it look like they had "consulted." As soon as it was apparent that we didn't support their agenda, they just shut the door on us. At the end of the day, they have the power, and that's the way it will always be. All the talk of gathering a cohesive set of opinions from keepers collectively is just flying kites - too many individual agendas, too many ratbag personalities, too little experience in dealing with determined bureaucrats, too many state-to-state differences and needs and too little goodwill. It's very, very hard indeed...

Jamie


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## chimerapro (May 10, 2014)

I propose we all just stop abiding by the current regulations unanimously and see how they go charging all of us lol. Then pool the fees we would normally pay to get the body up and running, theoretically the head of the body would be required to be based in Canberra or the very least able to travel frequently. The eastern states have the people power yet WA and Tas would have the most to gain from the idea. I'm in Qld Jamie and I want our system as well as all the rest changed with it. Because I'm "that hybrid guy" I'm probably not aloud to share my ideas or passion for the industry that I share with my Herper brothers and sisters lol I vote someone else to do it  If nobody will though I'll have a go as nobody else seems to want to haha


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## butters (May 10, 2014)

Personally Jamie I think you went off a little half cocked in response to champagnes post. I didn't read any of what you seemed to from his post. 

Did you just read it totally differently than me or is it the poster you have an issue with? Sorry I don't know either of you at all besides from your posts so have no bias here. 

I read that even though a lot of effort was made by those involved from the herp hobby in the process almost nothing was taken from their input. Your mentioned yourself that npws knew what they wanted so would it have made any difference? I thought that was the point champagne was trying to make. Some people put a lot of effort in but really didn't make much of a difference to the outcome. The end result was achieved irrespective of their input.

Its bickering like this amongst hobbyists themselves that dooms any attempt from the start. We can't agree on anything as a group and the different camps on various issues are almost polar opposites. Throw egos, personal agendas, financial interests and having to deal with government bodies into it and you get what we have.

i have an agenda here too. Just like Nathan I am in queensland and other than being allowed to keep native mammals would be very reluctant to add my voice to a body that promoted a more national approach to keeping. Any compromise or change to regulations which would be acceptable to other state controlling bodies would mean losing out in queensland.

i agree that the only way for it to be halfway effective would be for all herp societies to band together under an umbrella body. With representatives from all bodies. The aquarium hobby already does this to an extent but even they have limited effectiveness.


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## hayden123113 (May 10, 2014)

chimerapro said:


> I propose we all just stop abiding by the current regulations unanimously and see how they go charging all of us lol. Then pool the fees we would normally pay to get the body up and running, theoretically the head of the body would be required to be based in Canberra or the very least able to travel frequently. The eastern states have the people power yet WA and Tas would have the most to gain from the idea. I'm in Qld Jamie and I want our system as well as all the rest changed with it. Because I'm "that hybrid guy" I'm probably not aloud to share my ideas or passion for the industry that I share with my Herper brothers and sisters lol I vote someone else to do it  If nobody will though I'll have a go as nobody else seems to want to haha


 I completely agree we should start with that silly import and export licence "On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free." this is taken from the Australian's constitution and the import and export licence that we all have to pay is breaches it and goes against our constitutional rights, I would love to see how it would hold up in court if we where to band together and refuse to pay it.


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## junglepython2 (May 10, 2014)

butters said:


> i have an agenda here too. Just like Nathan I am in queensland and other than being allowed to keep native mammals would be very reluctant to add my voice to a body that promoted a more national approach to keeping. Any compromise or change to regulations which would be acceptable to other state controlling bodies would mean losing out in queensland.



From my understanding there is a review in progress that may change things for the worse in QLD.


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## champagne (May 10, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> From my understanding there is a review in progress that may change things for the worse in QLD.



Its going on everywhere luckily the dept is so under funded most won't be enforced. 

I personally would support an organisation even if I didn't agree with all their proposed changes as long as the majority was for the better of the hobby.


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## marcus0002 (May 10, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> From my understanding there is a review in progress that may change things for the worse in QLD.


 Whats going to change in QLD?


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## chimerapro (May 11, 2014)

Not much will change with the legislation revision, it's all just hype created by many who probably haven't even read The Nature Conservation act 1992. Most of the changes are happening to allow mining in Nat parks, changes to bird species lists, legalisation of reptile mutations (and hybrids I hope) mostly the changes that will happen to the act will be to make it easier to rape, pillage and destroy our native animals and habitats nothing else from what I have gathered after speaking to the SEQLD regional manager Sally Egan a while back.


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## mangrove (May 11, 2014)

-


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## marcus0002 (May 11, 2014)

So nothing that affects hobbyist reptile keepers directly? 

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## chimerapro (May 11, 2014)

marcus0002 said:


> So nothing that affects hobbyist reptile keepers directly?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


I highly doubt it but nobody will know until it's released


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## junglepython2 (May 11, 2014)

marcus0002 said:


> Whats going to change in QLD?



From what I have seen and heard there will be some clarification (presumably for the worse) on what constitutes "commercial" breeding. As well as a review of dangerous wildlife so I think ven keepers may be in for a few surprises.


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## marcus0002 (May 11, 2014)

On the other hand they may reclassify hobby species as commercial. 

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## longirostris (May 11, 2014)

hayden123113 said:


> I completely agree we should start with that silly import and export licence "On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free." this is taken from the Australian's constitution and the import and export licence that we all have to pay is breaches it and goes against our constitutional rights, I would love to see how it would hold up in court if we where to band together and refuse to pay it.



Or better yet test their vaildity and legality through the Federal Court or High Court. I have been on about this for years to anybody who would listen. I keep being told that other legislation such as wildlife laws would intervene but as far as I am concerned the transfer of most reptiles by owners to buyers in different states is a commercial process and is exactly what the section of the constitution relating to the process is designed to protect against. How the states have gotten away with this for so long is only because THERE IS NO representative body large enough or with the financial or political clout to instigate and follow through with a serious challenge. The test can be to one of any of the states import/export regulations. Only needs one test case victory and the laws are gone. Having said all of this you can be sure it would be a huge battle through the courts and one where the outcome is not ncessarily as obvious as it appears to be. Still, that is what an organised national group may be able to achieve.


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## Waterrat (May 11, 2014)

chimerapro said:


> Somebody did attempt to get some form of a ball rolling by creating a Facebook page: "Support Page for The National Australian Reptile Keepers Regulatory Body" and they tried to remain impartial and anonymous but due to industry "big wigs" perception of this person it was slandered and the support page was shot down in flames



Nathan, that anonymous "somebody" was you. In your wisdom, you jumped prematurely right in front of everybody and created FB page (as you described above) without any consultation with Greg and Gavin. When confronted by the "big wigs" as you put it, your response was that the page was meant to be handed
over to Greg and Gavin. Yes, you were shot down in flames for doing that because Greg and Gavin had different plans and didn't need your help.


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## RoryBreaker (May 11, 2014)

Clean slate time people! Lets move on and start again.

If you want to accuse, cut down or whinge about anyone go do it on Facebook where the masses and the governments can't easily see it from a google search.

Let's keep this thread more constructive so the Reptile keeper community can move forward.


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## Wild~Touch (May 11, 2014)

Oh how I wish !



RoryBreaker said:


> Clean slate time people! Lets move on and start again.
> 
> If you want to accuse, cut down or whinge about anyone go do it on Facebook where the masses and the governments can't easily see it from a google search.
> 
> Let's keep this thread more constructive so the Reptile keeper community can move forward.


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## chimerapro (May 11, 2014)

RoryBreaker said:


> Clean slate time people! Lets move on and start again.
> 
> If you want to accuse, cut down or whinge about anyone go do it on Facebook where the masses and the governments can't easily see it from a google search.
> 
> Let's keep this thread more constructive so the Reptile keeper community can move forward.





Wild~Touch said:


> Oh how I wish !


It'll happen with positive attitudes and maturity, negativity and finger pointing doesn't help the cause though


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## Pythoninfinite (May 12, 2014)

I believe the ONLY way you'll get any reasonable communication with bureaucrats is via the political route. This is what Gavin was leaning towards - establishing ongoing dialogue with the relevant Ministers, certainly State and maybe Federally, is absolutely essential - dealing with the various National Parks and their office Johnnies is pretty pointless and leads to years of being given the runaround. This was the case in WA (10 years of pointless yakking with CALM) until we had two approachable Ministers (Judy Edwards (Lab) and Cheryl Edwardes (Lib)) across two consecutive governments. The process was started by Judy and continued after a change of government by Cheryl. Unfortunately we thought we had good cooperation from the (then) CALM bureaucrats, and left them alone for 12 months to draft the legislation - and they turned what could have been a great horse for West Australians into camel!

What was touted by Gordon Wyre as the best legislation in the country was in fact the most limited, expensive and clumsiest system you could imagine, with overbearing punishments for even minor infringements or oversights.

To achieve any change in attitude it has to be done at the political end (from the top down), and this would probably best be done by a professional lobbyist who understands the problems and can see both sides of any argument, and is used to dealing with politicians. Ministers traditionally take their advice from their departmental bureaucrats, and whilst ever this remains the case, we're p*ssing into the wind as far as achieving change.

Jamie


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## Wild~Touch (May 12, 2014)

Good point Jamie I do agree 

Still we need to been seen as a positive intelligent dedicated group of Reptile Enthusiasts....can we do it ?

Education and Good Manners are essential especially among the younger generation...they need a wise mentor

Cheers
Sandee


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## GeckoJosh (May 12, 2014)

Waterrat said:


> Nathan, that anonymous "somebody" was you. In your wisdom, you jumped prematurely right in front of everybody and created FB page (as you described above) without any consultation with Greg and Gavin. When confronted by the "big wigs" as you put it, your response was that the page was meant to be handed
> over to Greg and Gavin. Yes, you were shot down in flames for doing that because Greg and Gavin had different plans and didn't need your help.




How are those plans going?


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## Waterrat (May 12, 2014)

The herp community is too disjunct and there were some disappointing responses to Gavin's and Greg's efforts. Greg and Gavin known about this thread, so they can comment if he wants to.


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## champagne (May 12, 2014)

I am in no way at the level required to do this but I think we really need to get behind the people who can. Regardless of where you stand on crosses or pures, the rules current and coming in affect us all the same. 

what would people like to see the organisation achieve?
I personally would like to see a carpet python unknown put on all licensing systems so that all the sibs and crosses can be separated from pure stock, I think this might ease some tension within purist part of the hobby as it will some what protect the pure lines and allow people cross breeding to be honest label animals for what they are.


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## Owzi (May 12, 2014)

I voted for a political party in the last election but didn't agree with all of their policies. I would hope every private keeper would be 100% behind having an Australian herp body, even though there is no way everyone will be pleased 100% of the time. At least we would have a voice! 

If Gavin & Greg are looking at this, I'd like to say I would love to see this happen! I would support it 100%. I didn't contact either of you at the time to show my support. I'm not a huge user of this or other forums. I've been keeping herp for over 20 years. I doubt more than a couple of people even know who I am posting here. I know many other people who prefer to stay away from all social media who happily enjoy private reptile keeping & they would all support this.
My point is- think of all the private people who are out there quietly enjoying their hobby away from social media, hoping this comes together.
I've heard other people suggest "build it & they will come", I think that's spot on & you shouldn't be turned off by the response from APS or from a expo/festival that was interstate for many of us.

The private reptile keepers of Australia need this


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## Pythoninfinite (May 13, 2014)

I often hear this. If private reptile keepers "need this," then they need to articulate why they need this... What do they actually need? At the moment there are heaps of keepers saying just this, but the actual problems are never articulated. There would be as many perceived "problems" as there are keepers, and that's just the start.

Make a list of the issues that you think a representative body should deal with, in order of priority. No one has done that to date...

Jamie


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## Waterrat (May 13, 2014)

Here is a start Jamie, others feel free to add.

1/ Abolish interstate trade restrictions – no import / export permits.
2/ Allow trading with all species privately as well as at reptile expos in all States and Territories, not just selected species – they were all bred in captivity.
3/ Abolish annual returns (already existing and successful in Qld).
4/ Provide guidance to keepers instead of enforceable restrictions, e.g. cage sizes.
5/ Stop referring to captive bred reptiles as “wildlife” because it is not. It’s a product of herpetoculture.
6/ Make uniform laws / regulations / procedures nation wide.
7/ Abolish the 6 months holding period, it’s futile and often ignored by keepers.
8/ Implement restrictions and regulations only when it concerns conservation of species.
1/ Abolish interstate trade restrictions – no import / export permits.
2/ Allow trading with all species privately as well as at reptile expos in all States and Territories, not just selected species – they were all bred in captivity.
3/ Abolish annual returns (already existing and successful in Qld).
4/ Provide guidance to keepers instead of enforceable restrictions, e.g. cage sizes.
5/ Stop referring to captive bred reptiles as “wildlife” because it is not. It’s a product of herpetoculture.
6/ Make uniform laws / regulations / procedures nation wide.
7/ Abolish the 6 months holding period, it’s futile and often ignored by keepers.
8/ Implement restrictions and regulations only when it concerns conservation of species.


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## GeckoJosh (May 13, 2014)

I would love to see all of those points considered WR, however I am curious to hear other reasons why the 6 month should be abolished?


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## SamNabz (May 13, 2014)

GeckoJosh said:


> I would love to see all of those points considered WR, however I am curious to hear other reasons why the 6 month should be abolished?



As Michael mentioned, most of us ignore the 6 month rule as it's rubbish.. However, one good reason to remove it (IMO) is to do with new keepers. For example, if they find it hard to care for a new species they have purchased, then it will surely perish due to them not being able to move it on to someone with the experience needed to keep it alive.


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## Dragon_77 (May 13, 2014)

l to would like to see the 6 month holding period that we are required to keep Reptiles for removed completely, why because if the keeper no-longer has enough money or seem fit to look after and care for them properly, why should they be force to keep looking after their beloved pet reptiles.

The reptiles should be moved onto another licence keeper ASAP, who can provide them a new home where they will be well looked after and cared for..


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## Bluetongue1 (May 13, 2014)

An undertaking of this nature requires numerous things to succeed but perhaps the most basic is substantial widespread support from the hobby. Despite the supposed interest, when APS users were given an opportunity to demonstrate that support, it did not happen. Only a handful of people responded to the call. Disappointing for Gavin and Greg and disappointing for those who did show their support. To continue along the same path with such a low level of demonstrated support cannot be justified in terms of peoples' time, effort and hopes.

The attitude expressed here seems to be part of the problem. We have a statement that says: "I also think that it should just be done and if it falls flat on its face then at least the people involved can say we tried". And another statement that denigrates the effort to make a difference in the NSW caging issue, a particularly well organised and professional group, ridculing their results. The values here seem opposite (even allowing for the ignorance of what actually took place in NSW). Yet people seem supportive of this duplicity. Does this mean that to "just have a go" is really OK only if you succeed? Are people really prepared to go the long road when things get tough? Are they likely to to jump ship at the first sign of trouble?

There are other paths available but they sill have to climb the same mountain of difficulties. They also ultimately require the same level of universal support if they are to succeed. 

Blue

PS. "....clearly Gavin has the time or he wouldn't of bothered starting this whole thing". If you have ever had dealings with him, you would know that Gavin is a very busy person. I have no doubt he would nave been making the time because he believed this was sorely needed and worthwhile enough to do so. 

Sorry this is late in being posted and the topic has moved on a bit.


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## eipper (May 13, 2014)

The 6 month rule is in place to stop private "dealers" setting up like a pet shop


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## GeckoJosh (May 13, 2014)

I was happy to support the move (and still am) but I stopped bothering to read the threads Gavin posted due to the constant bickering that I was forced to sift through


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## Focus (May 13, 2014)

I've always supported the idea. I may be naive, but I don't really see a downside to it. I'd be interested to hear reasons why this shouldn't be supported. Are there reasons why it might be a bad thing?

Or are critics mostly worried that they'll have to part with their money for potentially no results?


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## Snake_Whisperer (May 13, 2014)

Wild~Touch said:


> Good point Jamie I do agree
> 
> Still we need to been seen as a positive intelligent dedicated group of Reptile Enthusiasts....can we do it ?
> 
> ...



You of all people know first hand how hard it is to get people off their arses to do ANYTHING as a group in this hobby Sandee! Lol, how many miles did we put in trying to get the original HSQ back on track? Sure there were a lot of good intentions, of course we had the usual half dozen of us giving it our respective bests, plus some top shelf input from Jaime, who was happy to contribute despite having his own issues in the NSW herp world. 

To see someone spouting off like an ignorant douche is EXACTLY why anyone with any real passion for seeing the hobby become a legitimate entity ends up throwing up their hands and saying stuff it. It's certainly why I walked away, and I know many, many others who are in the exact same boat. 

Champers, we are all awaiting a status update on your progress with this monumental task! :facepalm: 

P.S. You can thank yours truly for the facepalm emoticon here on APS. I specifically requested it as a simplified answer to most of what I've read in this thread.


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## junglepython2 (May 13, 2014)

Owzi said:


> I voted for a political party in the last election but didn't agree with all of their policies. I would hope every private keeper would be 100% behind having an Australian herp body, even though there is no way everyone will be pleased 100% of the time. At least we would have a voice!
> 
> If Gavin & Greg are looking at this, I'd like to say I would love to see this happen! I would support it 100%. I didn't contact either of you at the time to show my support. I'm not a huge user of this or other forums. I've been keeping herp for over 20 years. I doubt more than a couple of people even know who I am posting here. I know many other people who prefer to stay away from all social media who happily enjoy private reptile keeping & they would all support this.
> My point is- think of all the private people who are out there quietly enjoying their hobby away from social media, hoping this comes together.
> ...



I agree whole heartedly with the above post. In reality people very few people from interstate or even QLD were going to travel to an expo just to show support for an idea that may or may not happen. I don't think this is a fair indication of the willingness of the community to support a national body. Likewise most of the plebs in the community such as myself for various reasons wouldn't have emailed showing support initially either.

I'm sure once something is up and running and it is run by people without an agenda and truly represents the general community and not just fractional groups it will gain widespread support.


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## champagne (May 13, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> The attitude expressed here seems to be part of the problem. We have a statement that says: "I also think that it should just be done and if it falls flat on its face then at least the people involved can say we tried". And another statement that denigrates the effort to make a difference in the NSW caging issue, a particularly well organised and professional group, ridculing their results. The values here seem opposite (even allowing for the ignorance of what actually took place in NSW). Yet people seem supportive of this duplicity. Does this mean that to "just have a go" is really OK only if you succeed? Are people really prepared to go the long road when things get tough? Are they likely to to jump ship at the first sign of trouble?



You are absolutely right everyone should just sit back and do nothing because the first attempt to get the message out there was poorly advertised so therefor not supported well.

As for your whinge about the nsw caging comments. It was made after someone said that we should just be getting behind herp societies and groups. I clearly said you can throw what ever experts you want at the government but if you don't have a presents at their level (political), then they will just do exactly what they did. Despite everyone's efforts the fact is they were never going to change anything and if we don't what to get screwed even more then we need a political presence, that's is the facts like it or not...


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## Bluetongue1 (May 13, 2014)

Moving on, Champagne, your comment on providing people with a sense of what they can get out of it, such as a list of problems that could be takcled, has merit. So I am glad to see it being discussed. I don't know how much much more support it will draw, given that Gavin had already indicated how it could function along those lines in general, with some specific examples thrown in. 

The question I would ask is what happens when there is not a political case pending? While you see a need it is much easier to garner support. Once the list of problems has been tackled and won, lost or agreed to compromise, will the support base remain during these periods? What about when only one state or territory is still struggling and every one else is OK? Will it be a case of I'm alright Jack? 

As a result of those concerns, I would like to see a broad-based organistion providing opportunities for education, promoting conservation, public awarness, quality care and herpetological opportunities for members that would not normally be available to them. Hopefully something of this nature would be able to maintain a stable membership irrespective of any given function at any given time. 

Blue


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## GeckoJosh (May 13, 2014)

Maybe the AHS could step up to the challenge?


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## champagne (May 14, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Moving on, Champagne, your comment on providing people with a sense of what they can get out of it, such as a list of problems that could be takcled, has merit. So I am glad to see it being discussed. I don't know how much much more support it will draw, given that Gavin had already indicated how it could function along those lines in general, with some specific examples thrown in.
> 
> The question I would ask is what happens when there is not a political case pending? While you see a need it is much easier to garner support. Once the list of problems has been tackled and won, lost or agreed to compromise, will the support base remain during these periods? What about when only one state or territory is still struggling and every one else is OK? Will it be a case of I'm alright Jack?
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more with those points. I think there will always be problems to fix and improvements to be made. The thing people need to remember is problems in other state affect everyone ie people don't want to export out of NSW because of the export permit hassle, the oversize caging requirements for turtles and monitors will affect keeping and breeding therefor availability, imports into wa and Tassie will open up huge markets, getting expo rules between states lined up so breeders can bring animals into different states easier to display, also being able to buy animals at expos in different states and bring them home with you. These are all points that affect everyone and we all need to stand united. maybe the organisation should have it set up so you can donate directly to a campaign, that way it would put to eliminate the whole agenda thing.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 14, 2014)

Unfortunately you're still living in a theoretical world champagne, for a start - the population bases in WA and Tassie will not sustain the opening up of "huge markets." Written into a 5 line paragraph, it all seems simple, as any of these things always seem to be when viewed from the comfort of your lounge chair. Reality is very different indeed - Michael's well thought out list gives an insight into the range of approaches that need to be made to governments at both the federal and state levels, and this is without first consulting widely with the herp community across the country. Your suggestion, champagne, that this can be effectively done electronically, pretty much guarantees failure because nothing is as effective and time-saving as face-to-face contact.

Contact with the various State and Federal bodies will be protracted, and possibly take 10 years to change the direction of the ship, the direction of which suits most bureaucrats and always makes them resistant to change - why should they? There are issues of power operating very clearly in the wildlife area - the bureaucrats will not give the reptile-interested community the autonomy it seeks because there are people within that community who continually stretch the limits of their tolerance and thus damage our collective image, and each state will jealously guard their right to run their own show.

We can speak for the 98% of legit keepers who are simply interested in these creatures, but it's the 2% who are cowboys even now when management is tight, who will hold us back in getting consensus on a more liberated approach.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2014)

It has been mentioned that the restriction on interstate trade in unconstitutional. 
Yes, it is. To change it will require consultation with a constitutional barrister QC briefed by senior lawyer, application fees, etc., etc.. Unfortunately, the government has the means and desire to stretch court proceedings against them beyond normal time frame and usually beyond the plaintiff's budget. Jamie can confirm that such option has been considered (in 2010-11) by a herp group we were part of but you can just imagine the costs involved - and that only one point on the long list.

This is not being a negative assumption, that's how it is and it demonstrates what financial powers the organisation will have to have to succeed.


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## RoryBreaker (May 14, 2014)

Is this the type of organisation we need to build/want in Australia?

United States Association of Reptile Keepers

if so what's next required step along this path?


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## Wild~Touch (May 14, 2014)

IMO...It would be a wise move to check out the Mission Statement of USARK then perhaps use it as a basis for something we could aim for...
We Australians can learn from USA and certainly don't have to copy/mimic them as our country and conditions are not the same.





RoryBreaker said:


> Is this the type of organisation we need to build/want in Australia?
> 
> United States Association of Reptile Keepers
> 
> if so what's next required step along this path?


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## Bushman (May 14, 2014)

This is turning into a good discussion. I particularly like Jamie's go forward approach and Michael's response with a list of things to put on the agenda. 
I think we're all in agreement that something must be done and we need to band together to create a force to be reckoned with. United we stand and divided we fall! 
It's critical that we put our minor differences aside and unify ourselves into a powerful group that has a strong voice with political clout. 
Now we need an action plan.


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## champagne (May 14, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Unfortunately you're still living in a theoretical world champagne, for a start - the population bases in WA and Tassie will not sustain the opening up of "huge markets." Written into a 5 line paragraph, it all seems simple, as any of these things always seem to be when viewed from the comfort of your lounge chair. Reality is very different indeed - Michael's well thought out list gives an insight into the range of approaches that need to be made to governments at both the federal and state levels, and this is without first consulting widely with the herp community across the country. Your suggestion, champagne, that this can be effectively done electronically, pretty much guarantees failure because nothing is as effective and time-saving as face-to-face contact.
> 
> Contact with the various State and Federal bodies will be protracted, and possibly take 10 years to change the direction of the ship, the direction of which suits most bureaucrats and always makes them resistant to change - why should they? There are issues of power operating very clearly in the wildlife area - the bureaucrats will not give the reptile-interested community the autonomy it seeks because there are people within that community who continually stretch the limits of their tolerance and thus damage our collective image, and each state will jealously guard their right to run their own show.
> 
> ...



ok maybe huge was the wrong world but allowing imports and export into tas and imports into wa will defiantly increase the market both ways. Opening up a export world wide of captive bred reptiles would be more appropriate to the huge market I stated. I never stated this could be done electronically but getting the message out there and therefor the needed support can be done electronically tho. I think we all understand that this is going to be tough but it needs to be done so where do we go from here what do the people who have the ability to make this happen need?


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## jedi_339 (May 14, 2014)

Waterrat said:


> It has been mentioned that the restriction on interstate trade in unconstitutional.
> Yes, it is. To change it will require consultation with a constitutional barrister QC briefed by senior lawyer, application fees, etc., etc.. Unfortunately, the government has the means and desire to stretch court proceedings against them beyond normal time frame and usually beyond the plaintiff's budget. Jamie can confirm that such option has been considered (in 2010-11) by a herp group we were part of but you can just imagine the costs involved - and that only one point on the long list.
> 
> This is not being a negative assumption, that's how it is and it demonstrates what financial powers the organisation will have to have to succeed.



Was it looked at as a class action lawsuit Waterrat?
Not that I know how much any legal challenge like that would cost, but presumably a class action lawsuit would reduce initial fees?? Just a thought.


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## Sean_L (May 14, 2014)

Theres one thing that has me truly interested to know.

So far, throughout this dicussion, a number of individuals have put forward their opinions and ideas as to how push this plan into action. Those that have experience with previous, similar endeavors have explained how some of the ideas would fail and how others could only work under special circumstances. Thats fair enough. Its great that we have ideas men (and women) and also realists who have real experience in this area. 
Despite a little bickering, and a little negatively and a whole lot of positive, albeit sometimes wishful thinking; one thing is quite clear. We all seem to want this to happen, whether because we truly believe its the right direction, or even just because it sounds like it might be better in the long run and we guess it couldnt hurt.

The thing Im interested to know is this..........Is there anybody out there that doesnt agree with this proposal? Or are we in total agreement that it is a good idea. If we are, Id like to point that out to everyone, that despite the varying reasons for desiring this change, it is infact something we all want. Surely that somehow makes it easier to put in place.

So again, is there anyone out there that has valid reasons for disagreeing with this proposal?
Id like to think they wont be totally ripped apart if they put forward a genuine opinion. But no guarantees, right.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 14, 2014)

champagne said:


> ok maybe huge was the wrong world but allowing imports and export into tas and imports into wa will defiantly increase the market both ways. Opening up a export world wide of captive bred reptiles would be more appropriate to the huge market I stated. I never stated this could be done electronically but getting the message out there and therefor the needed support can be done electronically tho. I think we all understand that this is going to be tough but it needs to be done so where do we go from here what do the people who have the ability to make this happen need?



Primary needs are patience, time, money and focused support which need to be given to articulate, good communicators, and who need to be trusted to do the groundwork without aggressive, argumentative interjection from those with self-interest motives. Reliable cash-flow is critical because this would likely be a full-time job for at least one person, and as someone (bt1 I think) mentioned, as needs vary, the group energy ebbs & flows - if there are few urgent issues, interest drops away and support diminishes... it's human nature.

Any court challenges, especially in constitutional matters, could end up costing in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, with no guarantee of success, even advice from a Constitutional lawyer could cost several thousand dollars. These are big undertakings that would need the committment of a very large number of keepers who would need to be prepared to "give it a go" with no guarantee of success.

Jamie


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## champagne (May 14, 2014)

Sean_L said:


> Theres one thing that has me truly interested to know.
> 
> So far, throughout this dicussion, a number of individuals have put forward their opinions and ideas as to how push this plan into action. Those that have experience with previous, similar endeavors have explained how some of the ideas would fail and how others could only work under special circumstances. Thats fair enough. Its great that we have ideas men (and women) and also realists who have real experience in this area.
> Despite a little bickering, and a little negatively and a whole lot of positive, albeit sometimes wishful thinking; one thing is quite clear. We all seem to want this to happen, whether because we truly believe its the right direction, or even just because it sounds like it might be better in the long run and we guess it couldnt hurt.
> ...



they only objection I would have is if the licensing system did stay even tho captive bred pet reptiles aren't wildlife, I wouldn't want a nation license but individual state licensing that are inline with each other. The reason for this would be to stop a new rule being rolled out across the board, at least if each state was individually run we would have a chance to stop it from spreading Australian wide and also be able to use the pressure from other states to push back.


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## RoryBreaker (May 14, 2014)

We can't put the cart before the horse. Big picture issues at first. We need to sandbag our current laws first (from incremental increases on restrictions).

Where to from here?

Until some form of society,association or whatever entity is formed, it will have to rely purely on donations. Some form of membership system can be implemented once becoming incorporated to keep everything above board.

Someone will have to put their hand up to be the initial figurehead. Someone will have to set up and run a webpage where donations can be collected and for the easy distribution of information. More of a bulletin board for people to see. People will have to be prepared to invest their own time attending meetings, gatherings and volunteers will be required to spread the message at the expos. Running a table etc. fB can be a tool used effectively to channel interest back to the webpage or relevant discussion on a forum. Just running a group via fb is destined to fail, as it can't be readily found from a search engine.

All reptile related forums will need to be approached and recruited to get on board to assist in the effort. It will benefit them in the end with increase traffic.

These are just some of my random thoughts on attempting to get this thing up.

Cheers,
Dave.


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2014)

Sean_L said:


> So again, is there anyone out there that has valid reasons for disagreeing with this proposal?



Sean_L, we don't know exactly, not even roughly at this stage what the proposal will cover.
I believe Gavin is preparing a response to the more meaningful posts in this thread and I trust we will hear from him soon.


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## chimerapro (May 14, 2014)

Here's a comment from a recent discussion I had with Andrew Wyatt: It is very difficult to overcome the apathy and negativity of the industry and actually get things off the ground. It is a full time job for someone who is strong and determined enough to take on the challenge. It took me two years of not getting paid and living off my savings to get USARK off the ground. I almost went bankrupt... and the negativity, gossip and rumor mongering are beyond belief. BTW- that never stops, even if you have great success. Not many people are willing to go through all of that.


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## champagne (May 14, 2014)

chimerapro said:


> Here's a comment from a recent discussion I had with Andrew Wyatt: It is very difficult to overcome the apathy and negativity of the industry and actually get things off the ground. It is a full time job for someone who is strong and determined enough to take on the challenge. It took me two years of not getting paid and living off my savings to get USARK off the ground. I almost went bankrupt... and the negativity, gossip and rumor mongering are beyond belief. BTW- that never stops, even if you have great success. Not many people are willing to go through all of that.



I think the idea of a website with updates and a donation point so we can get a slush fund going, so someone can work on this full time or a couple of people part time. Even setting up a membership where every month a set amount continues to come out that way with everyone's busy life we don't forget and a monthly payment over a lump sum will work better for a lot of people. anyway I will wait to hear from gavin to see what he needs to go forward from here


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## Bluetongue1 (May 14, 2014)

*Sean L*, there are about 25 individuals who have posted in this thread, of which 20 made a constructive comment rather than just asking a question. With 20 super keen individuals, or even 25 behind it, a federal representative body is just not going to fly!

So yes, it will require a different approach to see if much more widespread support is out there waiting for something more solid and definite to grab hold off.

*Champagne,* I can assure you that we will never have a national licence. Each state is given responsibility for looking after native flora and fauna and they are not about to relinquish any of their individual power.

As *Jamie *pointed out, you can forget about challenging the import/export duties. We looked at this some number of years back and came to the simplistic conclusion (i.e. no lawyer) that the states justification would be that they have been given responsibility for their wildlife by the Commonwealth. Therefore they are simply recouping costs involved in record keeping in the performing of their Commonwealth responsibilities. 

What can be achieved is sensible change, usually only a little at a time. For example, the federal body might tackle the 6 months proviso. They would ask for sensible suggestions from the membership. From these they would put together what they consider an acceptable submission plus a detailed rationale. This would then be put to a member's vote. For example, they might realise there is no point in asking for it to be totally abolished. So instead, they ask for it to be reduced across the board to 3 months. In addition, they also generate an exemption form with tick the box - such as "incompetent keeper", "unable to continue to keep due to illness", "first reptile was not what they thought it would be and no longer want it" etc. If what Scott E. says is correct, any individual submitting more than x number of exemption forms within a given time period is looked at more closely. If the masses give that the thumbs up, then the processes of representative lobbying and negotiation begin.

There is no question that a website will be a critical component. How else are you going to contact an Australia wide audience without spending a small fortunate on snail mail, not mention the time involved. A FB page as an adjunct to to the website just makes good sense in covering all bases. i know nothing about instagrams, so no comment. OK, I admit it. I am a technology dinosaur.

I believe the services of such an organisation should extend beyond just lobbying. This is where input from you guys is important in helping to define the functional parameters of the body. It would be such a waste not to fully utilise the capabilities of such an organisation. 

Blue


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## glebo (May 15, 2014)

[FONT=&quot]Hi All – sorry it is such a long post but I hope it puts things into perspective![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. I am not exactly sure where to start to respond to much of what has been said on this thread. First let me give a big thanks to those who have personally seen me or otherwise contacted me to pledge their support because in my mind this is just so critical. A particular mention must go to Greg, Jamie and Mike, because it takes more than one to initiate and pursue this and they are the team that has played a big part in getting this topic and idea this far. To those who have questioned where the idea of a federal body for reptile keepers is at and why it has not gone further, I also thank you both for your continued enthusiasm and the reminder. I do apologise for letting so much time slip by. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. You may say ‘everything is going along fine’, so why do I need to support the initiative of a federal representative body. It is no longer just a possibility but is now actually a likelihood that things we do not view as necessary, or even things that impinge on our enjoyment in the hobby, will be placed on us by Governments or bureaucrats (and others). These people have no interest in us even having reptiles (in some states). Pet keepers of all types are being targeted by lobby groups that will not rest until there are no longer animals used by humans (at the most extreme end of the spectrum) or until there are no reptiles in captivity (the bit that will directly affect us). If allowed, they will do this by ensuring that the restrictions imposed on reptile keepers are so demanding and restrictive as to make them unworkable. Such animal rights groups already have the ear of Governments and some possibly even hold positions within them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. Sorry if this all sounds far-fetched and not possible but if you doubt the power that these fanatic animal activists can wield, then have a look at an ABC program on the small family and community run abattoir in Victoria. OK, not reptile keepers but sabotaged by the same groups that could quite easily have its sights on reptile keepers. (//www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2013/s3858413.htm). One has to wonder just how much sway animal activists already hold over government bureaucracies to achieve that sort of result. Similarly, in NSW, the bureaucracy has pushing through the mandatory cage sizes and arrogantly ignored input from what may well be the most accomplished and experienced reference group of reptile keepers put together in this country. There appears to be no rational justification for that. The question is, who was pushing it and why? And one for the future... what will be next? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. We need an active lobby group that can take on Governments and make them accountable through negotiation, in the first instance, and legally where Governments and their departments err. It really doesn’t take much for Governments to become conciliatory and negotiate outcomes with interest groups when the interest group is large, organised and prepared to stand up for itself. As our group gets bigger and more organised, Governments would then seek out the organization for input before they actually do something that would affect us. By seeking us out as a large and powerful group they would do more than just pay lip service as they do currently because it would be in their interest to do so. As Paul Keating the former Prime Minister said – ‘trust self interest because it is a winner every time’. As the organization gets bigger and more and more people keep reptiles, Governments see a voter base that is worth pandering to in many instances. Only with the powerful bargaining chip of a large organisation behind us can we effect and direct change, rather than being subjected to it and completely voiceless as we are currently.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. We are disjointed in both geography and ideology, we are mixed as to what we consider is good and bad. For example one post on this thread is apparently saying that QLD has it so good that there is no point in pursuing anything that may jeopardize the status quo, and almost in the same breathe another is saying import export issues are a concern, QLD included! As a group we struggle to agree in even simple matters. There are almost as many views as there are people discussing it and we seem very good at hindering each other, be it to do with points of view or personalities or simply because we are feeling digruntled and want to share our misery around. We are also getting hung up on detail. What is a hybrid, should you have it, how did you get an animal from there? In the overall scheme of things, this might be interesting but it is also detail that could be addressed as part of a code of practice that *we write* and taken on board by Government, but to spend all this time and energy on it here only prevents us from progressing the discussion onwards to look at things that do matter – us having a voice! In my mind it has always been the bigger picture – the benefit to the HOBBY (or business or enterprise – whatever you want to call ‘keeping reptiles’).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. We have a diverse hobby and becoming more so which means that there will be more issues but they become more diffuse because there are fewer people interested and involved in each of the aspects of the hobby. We also have a fair number of state based reptile groups and this is growing annually. We also have an incredibly diverse set of skills in the people who keep reptiles and are passionate enough to want to make a difference. Unfortunately this all means not a jot if we are not cohesive and united in the way we present ourselves. Meanwhile the Government just laughs out loud at this because while we are infighting (and they may be fuelling it for all I know) we go nowhere, the laws become tighter (cage sizes as an example), the animal activists have more say at the state and federal level as to what we can and can’t do (yes they are organised and powerful and becoming more so) and we can’t do a thing about it because *we don’t have a voice*[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. A post by OWZI said: “I voted for a political party in the last election but didn't agree with all of their policies. I would hope every private keeper would be 100% behind having an Australian herp body, even though there is no way everyone will be pleased 100% of the time. At least we would have a voice!” Everyone accepts this idea as it is how our system works. Even if you didn’t vote for the team that was elected you still pay tax, you still go to work or school or whatever and life goes on and you hope that the team you either voted for or didn’t vote for (ie: the one in power) does the best for the country they can and makes your life better, increases the quality of life, and the country as a whole prospers. In my mind this was exactly what we were talking about. The idea that not everyone will like everything that a Parent reptile keeping body will say or do, but if there are enough checks and balances put in at the administrative and general levels to ensure that the VOICE of the general herp keeper is heard and the direction and concerns of the general herp keepers are addressed at whatever level is needed then the group would serve an incredibly important function for its members. It would also negate the sentiment expressed by Sean_l of “What’s to say that the heads of the national body don’t take things too far”. Right from the start of this process I pointed out it will be a long one, not everyone will agree, there will be pitfalls and detractors as well as fervent supporters, but above all that if we do it right we only have to do it once – if and only if there is support from a majority of the herp fraternity who want to make it happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. Here is where I am at. I along with Greg Miles, Jamie Stewart and Mike Lynch we have bandied this idea around and done the market research to see whether the idea of a federal or Australian reptile keepers association will float. Will we get it off the ground and is it worth the effort? At this stage the four of us have given it a red hot go and while there are many detractors who say we went about it the wrong way or we are arrogant or we didn’t advertise enough or consult enough or whatever, the truth as we see it is there is not the support that we had hoped. This doesn’t mean there isn’t support because there is and I absolutely appreciate everyone who was willing and still is willing to help make this happen including the young lawyer lady who very early on put her hand up! However I live in Darwin and have spent the better part of 10 years fighting to get Oenpelli pythons into captivity. I was been brow beaten and told why it can’t happen from both Governments and the general public (this still continues). After achieving permission to captive breed these snakes and do what was seen as unachievable, maybe I was drunk on my own small success and wanted to continue this by giving us all a voice. A voice that would reason with bureaucrats that are set to determine our future as keepers of reptiles, or these same bureaucrats who are being ‘requested’ by animal rights groups to impose ever more stringent regulations on what and how we keep reptiles. We deserve a voice and I am 100% behind us having a voice, however living in Darwin and being many thousands of kilometers from the corridors of power it is probably a better idea to have someone/s at the helm and others that can make things happen by being closer to the power source (reduce costs, improve immediate communication). To this end I am still prepared to help but feel I have given as much money and time to this cause without moving you all into action that I am prepared to do to date and so will continue to pursue and fight for the conservation of reptiles from the tropical north of Australia. I had hoped that we might all come together and fight for a common cause – our basic right to keep reptiles, plain and simple. While I had thought the right to keep reptiles was worth fighting for, it seems that sentiment is not universal – *or is it?*[/FONT]
Cheers and happy herping

[FONT=&quot]Gavin [/FONT]


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## shamat (May 15, 2014)

I cant add any value to this thread but Have been watching it with great interest. For what it is worth a federally focused group for the benefit of all reptile keepers would have my support and i would be gratefully involved in any way possible.


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## stencorp69 (May 15, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I believe the ONLY way you'll get any reasonable communication with bureaucrats is via the political route. This is what Gavin was leaning towards - establishing ongoing dialogue with the relevant Ministers, certainly State and maybe Federally, is absolutely essential - dealing with the various National Parks and their office Johnnies is pretty pointless and leads to years of being given the runaround. This was the case in WA (10 years of pointless yakking with CALM) until we had two approachable Ministers (Judy Edwards (Lab) and Cheryl Edwardes (Lib)) across two consecutive governments. The process was started by Judy and continued after a change of government by Cheryl. Unfortunately we thought we had good cooperation from the (then) CALM bureaucrats, and left them alone for 12 months to draft the legislation - and they turned what could have been a great horse for West Australians into camel!
> 
> To achieve any change in attitude it has to be done at the political end (from the top down), and this would probably best be done by a professional lobbyist who understands the problems and can see both sides of any argument, and is used to dealing with politicians. Ministers traditionally take their advice from their departmental bureaucrats, and whilst ever this remains the case, we're p*ssing into the wind as far as achieving change.



I agree Jamie, after getting stonewalled with DEC for a couple of years, WAHS went down the lobbying route and have been able to slowly bring about change to the WA system. Our recent meeting had DPaW officers requesting we discuss issues with them first and give them the opportunity to resolve the issues rather than approach the minister. But the reality is to get a national group up and running you need to a committed group (10+ years), with set goals and you need to have a thick skin as there is plenty out there who'll tell how thing should be done or how better a job they would do after all the work is done or claim the glory after the event, but ask them for effort during the process and the silence is only broken by the lame excuses. 

Its a pity the national group didn't get off the ground as every state is looking to "review" the wildlife laws with a view to standardise the laws. DPaW is looking at minimum cage sizes in WA and is in the process of looking to replacing the Wildlife Conservation Regs with the to be announced Biodiversity Conservation Bill. From what I have read it will effect the non R&A keepers more than us as the system looks to be based on the R&A system.


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## champagne (May 15, 2014)

It's a bit hard to gauge support off a thread on aps. May I suggest before canning the idea due to lack of support maybe throw up a facebook page. Someone on another thread said they had a copy of your talk at scales and tails expo, can we get this posted on you tube. Also reptile radio are looking at doing a show this week. I just don't think the message of the exact problems we are trying to address has been put out there enough. If we can get a list of say 6 to 10 key issues in which the organisation wants to address maybe people will then see how this may effect them and get behind the idea/show their support.

- - - Updated - - -



stencorp69 said:


> Its a pity the national group didn't get off the ground as every state is looking to "review" the wildlife laws with a view to standardise the laws. DPaW is looking at minimum cage sizes in WA and is in the process of looking to replacing the Wildlife Conservation Regs with the to be announced Biodiversity Conservation Bill. From what I have read it will effect the non R&A keepers more than us as the system looks to be based on the R&A system.



A lot of people think cage sizing isn't going to affect them because they only keep one or two animals and it's true short term but what happens when people stop breeding monitors and turtles due to the oversized housing requirements now being put into place. Once these rules are put in place it is very easy for them to slowly increase the cage sizes, killing the hobby.


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## Bluetongue1 (May 15, 2014)

shamat said:


> I cant add any value to this thread but Have been watching it with great interest. For what it is worth a federally focused group for the benefit of all reptile ke
> epers would have my support and i would be gratefully involved in any way possible.


. Thank you *shamat*.

This is exactly the type of post we need and lots more of them!

*Champagne*,

Personally I think that it is a great idea. APS members should post here only (like shamat) so there is no double posting and inflating of numbers. I have already listed names here of those showing support.

At this stage nothing has been decided but discussions are taking place behind the scenes. Clearly, if sufficient support is in evidence then it will definitely go ahead. 

Mike


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## junglepython2 (May 15, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> . Thank you *shamat*.
> 
> This is exactly the type of post we need and lots more of them!
> 
> ...



Maybe also approach Scales and Tales and try and submit an article, as well as flood facebook and approach the local societies to garner more support. As well as posts on other frequented reptile websites. Unfortunately APS rarely seems to have more then 50 users online at a time these days ( much less then it used to) so the perceived support may seem somewhat underwhelming if based purely on APS.


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## Ramsayi (May 15, 2014)

I think approaching the various herp societies around the country and asking them for feedback from their members would be a good way to get a handle on the level of interest in the idea.


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## beautifulpythons (May 15, 2014)

Interesting thread, for a change..


I'll echo Shamat's post and I'm sure most members here would.


Here's my 2c anyways:


1. If we think as a hobby that things will change by putting up a thread on a forum frequented by as little as 50 people a day (despite the silly stats of '300 members online' you may see..) then we have already shot ourselves in the foot.


2. Less than 1% of herpers frequent these online forums and even less are members of a LOCAL herp society let alone a national one.


3. As has been mentioned several times, everyone has an agenda. Everyone is also an expert, who knows better. Well, you don't. Those who tried to negotiate years ago with NPWS could not have had more experience, or the thoughts, goals and concerns of the average keeper more in their minds when they went through that and yet the brick wall stayed up.


4. Those who speak of Court challenges have NO idea of what's involved in that, High Court challenge !? For starters it's about $1,000,000 for the high Court fee, let alone the fact that if a Reptile Import case ever came across the bench it would be used as toilet paper.


5. Change takes years, and by the time it happens, the reptile scene would have changed that much that the change you all want will probably be redundant. I stepped away from the hobby for 3 years after having a child and can honestly say the change has been incredible, and not for the better of the hobby, the laws or the most important part of our hobby, the Herps themselves.


So, what to do? 


For starters:


1. Support those who have your interests at heart (maybe not ALL of them, but the majority anyways). Once some form of draft is written about what the hobby is not happy with, you need support from the masses before any politics are involved. Law reform comes with changing community values. If as a community we want things done, INVOLVE the community. Not 20 members off a forum not known for appreciating some of its most experienced members. Start with reptile retail outlets, herp societies, equipment sellers and let them know what your plan is.. The more people you get to support it the better.


2. Go and join a local herp society and tell all your reptile buddies to do the same


3. Those who tried originally should try again, I know Jamie well and have met Gavin a number of times and no one is more passionate about reptiles. But they need your support, not 5minute experts who keep a carpet python telling them they don't know what they are doing..


4. How many herp keepers are solicitors? Put your hand up for some volunteer work and work with those who need it. 


5. Less talk, more action. Most people do the right thing and as Jamie mentioned its the 1-2 % of cowboys who set us all back. The reptile industry has the potential to be big business and with that we neglect the animals, and every time we do this we give more and more material for the anti's to jump up and down about. 


Anyways thats probably more like 5c worth.. Sorry..


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## Pythoninfinite (May 16, 2014)

stencorp69 said:


> I agree Jamie, after getting stonewalled with DEC for a couple of years, WAHS went down the lobbying route and have been able to slowly bring about change to the WA system. Our recent meeting had DPaW officers requesting we discuss issues with them first and give them the opportunity to resolve the issues rather than approach the minister. But the reality is to get a national group up and running you need to a committed group (10+ years), with set goals and you need to have a thick skin as there is plenty out there who'll tell how thing should be done or how better a job they would do after all the work is done or claim the glory after the event, but ask them for effort during the process and the silence is only broken by the lame excuses.
> 
> Its a pity the national group didn't get off the ground as every state is looking to "review" the wildlife laws with a view to standardise the laws. DPaW is looking at minimum cage sizes in WA and is in the process of looking to replacing the Wildlife Conservation Regs with the to be announced Biodiversity Conservation Bill. From what I have read it will effect the non R&A keepers more than us as the system looks to be based on the R&A system.



Ha! The notion of approaching the Dept first to "resolve" issues is them just saying that if they know the direction in which you are going, they can head you off at the pass, and when, out of frustration you go to the Minister, the Dept officers will simply say, when they get a Ministerial enquiry, that they've already discussed it and made their decision. They've been unreasonable for over 20 years, and they're never going to give in if they don't have to, even without Peter Mawson's influence. Keep the pressure directly on the Minister and expose the problems as they arise. Government Dept heads hate Ministerials, because they HAVE to respond constructively (although perhaps not with this current bunch of Federal incompetents...)

- - - Updated - - -



beautifulpythons said:


> Interesting thread, for a change..
> 
> 
> I'll echo Shamat's post and I'm sure most members here would.
> ...



All excellent suggestions matey, and a good reality check re legal challenges from someone in the know!

Jamie


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## chimerapro (May 16, 2014)

I hope this link is aloud as many have asked for this yet nobody has stepped up to the plate (I did months ago to show my support in my own little way) We all need to put the petty differences aside and show support to the cause regardless of who, what, why ect. 
www.facebook.com/NARKRB


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## solar 17 (May 16, 2014)

"Nothing has changed" When you read this thread with the personal attacks and you look at the last Herp club that was started in Ipswich not long back that "had" to be at a hotel because ppl couldn't go to a (hobby) meeting without drinking (booze)and then ended up in court after a brawl and ppl wonder why we (as a hobby) DON'T get anywhere....holey schmoley.


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## RedFox (May 16, 2014)

I don't have anything to really add to this thread but I think it is an excellent idea and would support it. The chances of massive restrictions being placed on the hobby in the distant and not so distant future which would be detrimental to my enjoyment or the possibility of keeping these wonderful animals is fairly high, if we continue the way we are. At the moment, any voice, even if I don't agree with all their decisions, I would see as beneficial to the hobby as a whole, even if it does take many years to become large and powerful enough to have any political sway. As a young keeper ( I'm 20 y.o), I feel my age group has the most to gain long term from an established representative body. I hope to still be able to own and enjoy my herps in 40+ yrs time.


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## hayden123113 (May 16, 2014)

RedFox said:


> I like don't have anything to really add to this thread but I think it is an excellent idea and would support it. The chances of massive restrictions being placed on the hobby in the distant and not so distant future which would be detrimental to my enjoyment or the possibility of keeping these wonderful animals is fairly high, if we continue the way we are. At the moment, any voice, even if I don't agree with all their decisions, I would see as beneficial to the hobby as a whole, even if it does take many years to become large and powerful enough to have any political sway. As a young keeper ( I'm 20 y.o), I feel my age group has the most to gain long term from an established representative body. I hope to still be able to own and enjoy my herps in 40+ yrs time.


 I have to completely agree, I have nothing to add but I feel I need to show my support, as red fox said as a young keeper I have the most to gain out of this.


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## RoryBreaker (May 16, 2014)

Maybe one of the larger Herpetological Societies could 'run the ball up' and host a national conference to discuss the matter?

If it coincided with one of the bigger expos it could draw a larger audience than a stand alone weekend, as many interstate keepers already make the journey. If it were to occur next year, that would give keepers plenty of notice to plan on attending.

Cheers, 
Dave.

ps. It sort of rules out SEQld as a possibility as there isn't at this stage a strong enough society in existence.


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## RedFox (May 16, 2014)

Keep in mind this is simplified and idealistic but... wouldn't AHS be the logical choice for holding a conference? It has a long history, an impressive past and present member list and is located in NSW where the majority of Expos are and also where the COP has been imposed. WAHS could push the idea in WA at the expo later this year/early next year. VHS could do the same in VIC. I don't know which society would step up in QLD.


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## Bushman (May 16, 2014)

I agree that the Australian Herpetological Society is a logical choice, as it embodies the national herp spirit. 

This is an encouraging restart. Let's make it happen!

I pledge my support.


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## longirostris (May 16, 2014)

beautifulpythons said:


> Interesting thread, for a change..
> 
> 
> I'll echo Shamat's post and I'm sure most members here would.
> ...



Normally I would not respond to this, however, as I think that I am the only one in this thread that has mentoned a challenge to the states regulations regarding interstate movement of reptiles through the court system and in particular the High Court I unfortunately have no option but to respond. 

Quite frankly I don't know you or even know who you are so your desultory remarks are interesting to say the least. I hope there is no malice in them. As I say, I am not sure why there would be given the fact we do not appear to know each other. I will asume then that this is your normal manner of discussing a point of view that you disagree with or perhaps even think is ridiculous as indeed I am sure there are many here who like you may find my proposal preposterous.

Again quite frankly, your comments are not well researched at all and clearly you have overstepped your mark by accussing those of us (me) who espoused said challenge as having "NO idea". You make a very bold statement there is what I will say. How do you know what idea I have of the process of a High Court challenge? My counsel to you would be to think clearly about what you have to say about anything you may wish to denigrate, by belittling the comments of others particularly where you make an accusation that may in fact be incorrect. In this case you have made several comments that are in fact incorrect.

I guess this is what others are talking about when they refer to disparaging remarks and people who get on here and insult others for no real or apparent reason other then to express their point of view. I must admit this is probably the first time on this forum I have been on the receiving end of such a tirade demonstrating such blatant disrespect for a suggestion or comment I have made. So I suppose I have been lucky. 

For my part I count Gavin Bedford as a personal friend. Even though I have not spoken to him for several months, I have spoken to him about this issue and I have offered my support for this cause as indeed have many others out there. My issue is none to dissimilar to Gavin's in that time for me is a scarce resource and therefor whilst I am happy to be involved and support the concept of a National Body for the hobby my involvement would be very limited as indeed I am sure is the case with most people in the hobby.

I do not wish to pick a fight here, I am just suggesting that people need to think about what they are going to say if they are going to chop down someone elses view point or comments on any given topic. 

If you want me to elaborate, I am more than happy to, although quite frankly I think I have made my point and therefor see no need for and will spare any further embarassment. 

Mark Hawker


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## zulu (May 16, 2014)

NPWS has plenty of money for court cases, you would have to have something more pressing than imports and exports to be willing to take them to court.
While we have regional governments in australia its easier to address issues through regional herpetological societies.


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## solar 17 (May 16, 2014)

Just on this Import/export state to state issue, The Australian Parrot Society which is based in Brisbane actually challenged along these lines engaging a QC but eventually it fell over although high costs were expected they quickly became outragious and there was some serious money put forward and the QC it may have been a SC l dont remember that exact point but this was in the mid 90's straight after the imports (legal) ceased following that outbreak of Newcastle Desease the bottom line was/is its not a black and white area as some ppl feel it maybe. solar 17 ~B~


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## -Peter (May 16, 2014)

No it isn't black and white, if it was it would not need to be challenged in the Federal Court but as you correctly state the cost would be big and the industry at present could not support such a challenge even if the birdos came on board. Perhaps that isn't the main focus though. 
Personally, I would be willing to pay a nominal amount to a legally formed organisation with a steering committee and interim constitution that addressed the representative concerns of reptile keepers. I don't have the legs or the fire anymore to be involved. I have been there for too long and too many times in my life. Time for younger hearts to take up the cudgels of democracy but I'm willing to pay for a cudgel.


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## solar 17 (May 16, 2014)

"Peter" l believe you may have touched on an idea with bringing the bird ppl on board as they are a far more united front, l seriously don't believe the herp movement is united enough or have the folding ($) to handle such an issue with those courts requiring five figures plus "a day" to run them/us into a serious challenge but l do "think" zulu got it wrong as l dont believe state govts. depts. atm have extra cash to throw around. solar 17 ~B~


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## zulu (May 17, 2014)

Governments find pots of money for legal representation when they are challenged,dont think anything has changed. Like royal commissions that cost a fortune ,they love them ,its all part of the hot air industry.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 17, 2014)

Longirostris, your response is unnecessarily defensive - you make it sound as though beautifulpythons is attacking you personally. I defend bps response - like many who have been involved with reptile keeping politics, I have acquainted myself with the cost of legal representation in most jurisdictions, and the cost of solicitors and barristers, even in the lower courts are very high indeed. When you get to the highest court in the land and you challenge constitutional matters, the expertise you draw upon is astronomically expensive. Bp is university educated in law and knows what he is talking about, but it is this sort of bitchy infighting that stops good people with useful knowledge from contributing. Develop a thicker skin and get on with solving the real problems we face, or leave it to those who can remain focused on the issues. The relative costs of legal action are pointless to dispute or debate at this point in time. 

But this is putting the cart WAY before the horse. There are many more pressing issues that need to be considered before we get anywhere near court action of any sort. Useful thread so far, lets keep it focused on discussing the issues.

A comment about the birdos - the probably are a bit more politically savvy than herp keepers at this point in time beacause they've been doing it for far longer and there may be more more money involved at the top end, but they are far fewer in number than reptile keepers across the country - they number about 20% of what we have licensed.

Jamie


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## Bluetongue1 (May 17, 2014)

It is often difficult to know whether people are offering wisdom based on experience or jaded opinions due to past experience. I am sure i have seen both in this thread.


Import/export duties are an "in your face" imposition for anyone transferring animals interestate. There is Commonwealth trade legislation preventing duties to maintain open trade between states. The duties on animal transfers would seem to be in contravention of the free trade legislation.

The legislation that stipulates the duties on intestate transfers of animals was put into place by government who have all their legislation checked and worded by their legal advisors who specialise in laws and legislation. They would have been very aware of the existing commonwealth legislation and yet the still decided there was no conflict. They ocassionally get it wrong but not very often.

The commonwealth have provided the power to states and territories to maintain their wildlife. This includes transferring records from one state or territory to another. This in turn generates an extra cost in dealing with another regulatory body. I have been told that this cost is recouped through transfer duties.

Bottom line... for any one of a number of reasons, this is a send to the back of the list item. If people could put their thoughts and efforts into addressing more readily resolvable issues that would be preferable from here forward. Thanks.

Blue


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## champagne (May 17, 2014)

I'm not sure where all this talk of courts came from? I thought we were working toward having political representation as a hobby. we might be more successful if instead of trying fight the government in court, where they have pretty much unlimited resources. We instead use political pressure to improve the licensing system. Either way I think we should be trying to start with the small problems and working toward the big ones. 

1. 6 month transfer period reduced or removed
2. Caging requirements changed from "rules" to "guide lines only" or removed all together

imports/exports and being able to keep all species in all states are both issues that defiantly need to be fixed. They are very big issues tho that will take a lot of resources to achieve, it might be better if we try to get a few small wins under our belt that way the sceptics that are sitting on the side lines will see that it is working and will start to come on board before we tackle the big issues.


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## fishead (May 18, 2014)

G'day guys, for what it's worth I'd just like to say a big thank you to those that are giving their time to further our hobby/passion. 
You definitely have my support and respect.
Communication is one of my many weak points (just ask wifey) so I'm not much good to you guys in the front line unfortunately. But it does seem clear to me that simply communicating this idea to the average herper is step number one in gaining support from them. Maybe that is one area where us average joes can help. As mentioned via herp clubs, notices in pet shops, person to person etc.
Maybe there needs to be a web site we can point people at that displays the goals and benefits?


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## Pythoninfinite (May 19, 2014)

champagne said:


> I'm not sure where all this talk of courts came from? I thought we were working toward having political representation as a hobby. we might be more successful if instead of trying fight the government in court, where they have pretty much unlimited resources. We instead use political pressure to improve the licensing system. Either way I think we should be trying to start with the small problems and working toward the big ones.
> 
> 1. 6 month transfer period reduced or removed
> 2. Caging requirements changed from "rules" to "guide lines only" or removed all together
> ...



Actually governments don't have unlimited resources when it comes to litigation - they target the money they spend on court matters pretty much according to whether they will win or not (ie, money well spent), and like everybody these days, they have budget limits placed on their activities across all facets of their operations. 

As far as equality between all states goes, island communities can (and in Tassie's case, I think should) claim special consideration with regard to the introduction of non-endemic species into their fragile ecosystems. This is my personal opinion of course, but I believe Tasmania should keep the ban on non-endemic reptiles in place, and the needs of a few Tasmanians who want to keep other species should not override the very sound reasons for keeping potentially harmful introductions out. If you want to keep other species, move to a place where you can - I left WA pretty much because of the restrictions in that state.

Changing the enclosure size rules in NSW is not a simple matter - they are now enshrined in law, and it is highly unlikely the Government will be compelled to revisit the matter anytime soon. I suspect that NSW has germinated a cancerous growth around this matter and it is likely to be looked at seriously by most jurisdictions in the country sometime soon. Given the response in NSW from keepers, I doubt that any consultation will take place before imposition of similar legislation elsewhere. But now is the time to lobby your state representatives on both sides, because Abbott has successfully destabilised even the state Liberal Governments, and they won't be looking too flash when it comes to reelection (yay!!!).

Champagne, sorry to do this (it's not personal !) but the word is "definitely," not "defiantly," which means something totally different.

- - - Updated - - -



fishead said:


> G'day guys, for what it's worth I'd just like to say a big thank you to those that are giving their time to further our hobby/passion.
> You definitely have my support and respect.
> Communication is one of my many weak points (just ask wifey) so I'm not much good to you guys in the front line unfortunately. But it does seem clear to me that simply communicating this idea to the average herper is step number one in gaining support from them. Maybe that is one area where us average joes can help. As mentioned via herp clubs, notices in pet shops, person to person etc.
> Maybe there needs to be a web site we can point people at that displays the goals and benefits?



Thanks for your support Steve! Have you filled in that drain across your driveway yet ?

Jamie


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## Wing_Nut (May 19, 2014)

After a similar suggestion that the Animal rights organisations where looking closely at keeping and racing of pigeons in WA, the state pigeon federation took the proactive step of writing our own code of practice and having it endorsed by the authorities. To give our code of practice the punch it required, it was reviewed by veterinary practitioners as part of the process. In this way, we circumvented overzealous animal rights organisations attempts to adversely affect our hobby, and have had relative peace since. The remainder of the states adopted a very similar code of practice and also avoided the same. My suggestion would be that a national body write something similar for the remainder of the states local representative bodies to adopt and limit the fallout. The cost associated with producing such a document was low, it did not require a great deal of time, and I would suppose that the representative body that already convened in NSW would already have all the information required. With very little effort the code of practice was adopted by the state regulators with very positive support.


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## Slickturtle (May 19, 2014)

Hi Pythoninfinite

Re: "As far as equality between all states goes, island communities can (and in Tassie's case, I think should) claim special consideration with regard to the introduction of non-endemic species into their fragile ecosystems. This is my personal opinion of course, but I believe Tasmania should keep the ban on non-endemic reptiles in place, and the needs of a few Tasmanians who want to keep other species should not override the very sound reasons for keeping potentially harmful introductions out. If you want to keep other species, move to a place where you can - I left WA pretty much because of the restrictions in that state."

Although I totally agree with you in principle re the environmental sanctity of islands, there is one important aspect here concerning Tassie. It is cold there. I would argue that herp keepers should be allowed to keep any sensible tropical reptile. I.E. How long would a GT Python last if it escaped in Hobart? It reminds me of the illogical laws in Sweden (or is it Finland?) where people are not permitted any reptiles much - not even north African Leopard Geckoes. I guess that the authorities are worried that the geckos might escape and establish themselves in the crevasses in the glaciers - from which they will leap out and attack people! LOL.


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## fishead (May 19, 2014)

Gday Jamie, long time no see hey. Yeah driveway is sorted, wifey did a great job there haha.
Drop in if you're ever coming past mate.


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## Waterrat (May 19, 2014)

Hi Jamie and Greg, during my recent visit to Tassie, I learned that significant changes re- importation of "some" mainland reptiles are imminent. I just hope they don't allow importation of Red-bellied black snakes. Cheers M


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## Slickturtle (May 19, 2014)

Waterrat said:


> Hi Jamie and Greg, during my recent visit to Tassie, I learned that significant changes re- importation of "some" mainland reptiles are imminent. I just hope they don't allow importation of Red-bellied black snakes. Cheers M



Hi Mike

Years ago a biologist in Darwin once said that R B Blacksnakes could take off like a plague if they got loose up here. I wonder how they get on with toads. I know they co-habit with toads in your area. Interesting thought.

GLM


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## Waterrat (May 19, 2014)

Greg, I wondered why there are no RBBSs in Tas while roaming the country side there looking for snakes. I then had discussions with Rick Shine and others and expressed some ideas in a paragraph in the next issue of Scale & Tails (due out this week). Let me know what you think of it.

cheers
M


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## Pythoninfinite (May 20, 2014)

RBBs have been tried in Darwin on at least several occasions, but they, like Diamond Pythons, don't do well in the climate. I saw Gow and a couple of his mates working with them for a while, but I believe they didn't last more than a couple of years.

Jamie


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## ShaunMorelia (May 20, 2014)

Something that is being done now and we really need something in place to counter anything that would be detrimental to our hobby arising from this kind of thing.

The quote below is from another Australian Reptile Forum...


Another Forum said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My name is Tiffani Howell and I am postdoc working with A/Prof Pauleen Bennett at La Trobe University in Melbourne. We received *funding from* the *Victorian Bureau of Animal Welfare* to run a survey asking owners of lizards, snakes, turtles, and frogs (not technically reptiles, I know!) about the various ways they meet the needs of their pets.
> 
> ...



This is a prime example of why we need a united national body.

Thanks
Shaun.


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## champagne (May 21, 2014)

Pet lovers push snake imports as pressure grows to ease rules on non-venomous reptiles | The Mercury


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## ShaunMorelia (May 21, 2014)

Some of those comments are ridiculous!


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## notechistiger (May 21, 2014)

I also have nothing constructive to add other than my full support of this. Let's get this off the ground!


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## insitu (May 21, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> RBBs have been tried in Darwin on at least several occasions, but they, like Diamond Pythons, don't do well in the climate. I saw Gow and a couple of his mates working with them for a while, but I believe they didn't last more than a couple of years.
> 
> Jamie




tropical species in cold climates require heating, cold climate species in tropical climates require cooling, its a no brainer really. there are many cooling systems available for many different applications just generally most keepers arent interested in spending the money or changing their ways from a wooden box with a heat light, kinda sad the way we still all follow the same old school methods of housing our animals

this hobby disregarding needs for ease of cleaning and cheaper power bills leaves ourselves open to be picked apart by surveys and studies etc as posted above, just look at the stink people put up over the caging requirements recently brought in to NSW which weren't unreasonable at all


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## Slickturtle (May 21, 2014)

insitu said:


> tropical species in cold climates require heating, cold climate species in tropical climates require cooling, its a no brainer really. there are many cooling systems available for many different applications just generally most keepers arent interested in spending the money or changing their ways from a wooden box with a heat light, kinda sad the way we still all follow the same old school methods of housing our animals
> 
> Hi Insitu
> 
> ...


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## insitu (May 21, 2014)

id hazzard a guess the land barrier is what has stopped them reaching NT, its a lot of unfavorable habitat with a lot of mulgas between, now the toads have slowed up the top enders they might have a fairly good run at populating the area if they were to be released/escape from captivity as im sure when conditions are too hot they would be more than able to find refuge underground and in the wetlands, my post was more in regards to the survey posted above though as we leave ourselves wide open to criticism from the way we manage our animals, i just used jamies captive red bellies post as an example


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## Slickturtle (May 21, 2014)

Hi all; Greg Miles here:
Just adding to what Gavin said in his post # 75 on this thread. As you know, our small group of activists have had a go at 'sniffing the air' to see if the time is right to kick off a national body. Unfortunately not everything fell into place and our efforts have not quite had the reach that we hoped for. But we have made enough noise - I think - to lure the right people out of their terrariums and snake rooms to join with us in becoming a bigger force of organisers/kick starters. Although there have been plenty of messages of support, there has only been a couple of people who put their hands up and offered to help carry the workload. 

Gavin and his small group of helpers cannot do it alone. E.G. Gavin and I both live in Darwin. You probably could not choose a worse city from which to try to kick-start a national reptile association. The nucleus needs to be somewhere down the eastern seaboard where contact and collaboration is more realistic. In addition, Gavin is a very busy person and has a limited amount of free time. He and I have not lost our enthusiasm for this project and remain super keen for it to happen, and we want to be involved. But we had hoped by this stage the right people would have appeared in response to our earlier ‘push’. Ideally if we could get just one or two people in each capital city, they could join in with us in developing this worthwhile thing further. Ideally these people will have some experience behind them and a bit of spare time. 

We are still working on this as time allows. So please be patient and watch this space!!

Cheers

Greg


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## wokka (May 21, 2014)

Is it considerred a bad thing if RBB were able to survive in Darwin?


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## insitu (May 21, 2014)

in the wild it wouldnt be ideal, a native species introduced into an area its not endemic too is still classed as an introduced species


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## cement (May 21, 2014)

They seem to go allright up on the Atherton. Cool up on the mountains though.
A friend also keeps them outdoors on the coast, near Proserpine. Gets cool there at night though too.


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## shamat (May 21, 2014)

Slickturtle said:


> Hi all; Greg Miles here:
> Just adding to what Gavin said in his post # 75 on this thread. As you know, our small group of activists have had a go at 'sniffing the air' to see if the time is right to kick off a national body. Unfortunately not everything fell into place and our efforts have not quite had the reach that we hoped for. But we have made enough noise - I think - to lure the right people out of their terrariums and snake rooms to join with us in becoming a bigger force of organisers/kick starters. Although there have been plenty of messages of support, there has only been a couple of people who put their hands up and offered to help carry the workload.
> 
> Gavin and his small group of helpers cannot do it alone. E.G. Gavin and I both live in Darwin. You probably could not choose a worse city from which to try to kick-start a national reptile association. The nucleus needs to be somewhere down the eastern seaboard where contact and collaboration is more realistic. In addition, Gavin is a very busy person and has a limited amount of free time. He and I have not lost our enthusiasm for this project and remain super keen for it to happen, and we want to be involved. But we had hoped by this stage the right people would have appeared in response to our earlier ‘push’. Ideally if we could get just one or two people in each capital city, they could join in with us in developing this worthwhile thing further. Ideally these people will have some experience behind them and a bit of spare time.
> ...



Count me in. I'm in Western Sydney and have sat on several boards and deal with many gov't departments as part of my job. Happy to try and add any value i can. 

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk


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## Slickturtle (May 22, 2014)

wokka said:


> Is it considerred a bad thing if RBB were able to survive in Darwin?



Nothing more than thinking out loud. We were just musing on why reptile occur where they do. I.E. what constrains reptiles to their natural range.


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## glebo (May 22, 2014)

Hi all. What a difference a week makes! I am heartened to hear from so many of you. I have continually said this would be a long process and it is definitely looking that way. However, from discussions I have had with a couple of determined people in the past few days we now have a way forward that will give us (Greg, Jamie, Mike and I, and any others that become part of this preliminary team) the ability to speak directly with the Herp community, giving the herp community an avenue to speak confidentially and in confidence with us about what we are doing. It will allow the average herper to offer their support in confidence if necessary. 
To the people with whom I have had a recent conversation I sincerely thank you. Our next big step is to set up a web site that incorporates much of the discussion in this and other threads about an Australia wide reptile advocacy body. It will take some time so please be patient but I think when we have it up and running and interactive we can take the next step. I can see it coming together and am very excited by that. There are a number of us that want to make things happen and my personal view is that I have spent a lifetime working on and with reptiles and I would like to give something back. That means sharing information that I and others have gleaned through many years of trial and error so you don’t have to make the same mistakes I have made. We are in this field of reptiles together so to have a combined voice is something I am passionate about, and I hope in time you all share that passion. Regards Gavin


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## jacorin (May 22, 2014)

i'd like to help out to in some way....i don't have much in the way of experience with reptiles aside from owning a few. And time wise,i own/operate my own Take Away food shop here in Beresfield(near Newcastle NSW) but i'll do what i can to help.

Shane


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## Bluetongue1 (May 23, 2014)

On re-reading the last few pages I feel the need to comment. I was half way through constructing a post in response to that from *delightfulpythons* when *longirostris* beat me to. So I settled for a general statement that It is often difficult to know whether people are offering wisdom based on experience or jaded opinions due to past experience. I did not realise *Pythoninfinite* had posted before me. I now regret not having completed and posted my original response, which I have now done....

1. This first statment by delightful pythons could hardly be more negative. There is a chinese proveb that states... A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. This is a starting point and if DP read the entire thread then he would know that expansion into other areas has been discussed and taken on board. Irrespective, why take the negative attitude that "we have already shot ourselves in the foot". Why not take the positive stance of, OK, you have made a good start and to keep it going you need to expand by....."

2. Where does the statistic that "less than 1% of herpers frequent... forums" come from? What I do know is that a lot of people who aare otherwise uncontactable frequent forums. So with time, the word will be spread to other forums.

3. "Every one is an expert who knows better". That is absolutely not my personal experience with others on the forum. It does apply to a select few but as a generalisation I believe it to be straight-out incorrect.

4. The notion of a high court challenge has seen extremely varying cost quotes. Irrespective, it is may never be addressed due to the lack of certainty in winning due to the loop hole of it being utilised for wildlife, also a Commonwealth empowerment. No furthe comment.

5. Change does take years. As for it being redundant by that time I totally disagree. Sensible change is exactly that and better than no change, whenever it comes in. The fact that the herp scene has altered in that time has no effect on making progress in the governing regulations.

These were the suggested "starters" as to what to do....

1. Another derivise comment on "20 members off a forum not known for appreciating some of its most experienced members". I seriously have to wonder whether DP has the establishment of representative body at heart or is using the opportunity to criticize a forum he has personally fallen out with.

2. Yeah, great advice for 20 people - who may well be members of societies already, even though you are presuming they are not.

3."They need your support not 5 minute experts who keep a carpet python telling them they don't know what they are doing." Yet another another negative, jaded and entirely unnecessary qualification to what otherwise would have been a positive remark.

4. Great point!

5. "Less talk, more action." We are taking the first few tentative steps to determine if the suggested organisation is feasible, so that advice is premature. 
What have the "cowboys" got to do with this?
You say "the reptile industry has the potential to be be business and with that we neglect the animals". The reptile hobby is already a big business. And on what basis do you make the statement about this resulting in neglecting animals and providing ammunition for the anti's. How does this contribute to assisting the establishment of a representative body?

*Pythoninfinite*, I am surprised you feel that the post provided by* DP* was acceptable and should be defended. I also noted that you were personally critical of *Longirostris* in his response. I have little doubt that he felt personally criticised, whether that be justified or not, but his response should have been assessed on its merits rather than any personal intonation, actual or inferred. As such, I believe he was well justified in most of the response comments that he passed.

His was definitely not an example of "bitchy infighting". Your comment about "develop a thicker skin" is one I have always found particularly offensive and thankfully is seldom used these days. 
I did not see any loss of focus, just a justifiable problem with another person's post. Your knowing DP personally is likely to alter how you view what they wrote. Not knowing this person I responding to what I see written. We may need to agree to disagree on this on.

The bottom line is that people need to positive to help continue the forward momentum. Negative comments have a negative effect, such as its all too hard so what is the point. The point is that people can make it happen and the more who take that on board the more chance we have of reaching our ultimate goal.

Blue


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## Pythoninfinite (May 23, 2014)

insitu said:


> tropical species in cold climates require heating, cold climate species in tropical climates require cooling, its a no brainer really. there are many cooling systems available for many different applications just generally most keepers arent interested in spending the money or changing their ways from a wooden box with a heat light, kinda sad the way we still all follow the same old school methods of housing our animals
> 
> this hobby disregarding needs for ease of cleaning and cheaper power bills leaves ourselves open to be picked apart by surveys and studies etc as posted above, just look at the stink people put up over the caging requirements recently brought in to NSW which weren't unreasonable at all



Just to correct the record insitu, you oversimplify the matter of the "stink" you suggest the NSW Code of Practice caused amongst reptile keepers and those participating in the "consultation" sought by NSW NPWS. 

1. There was a very significant problem with the matter and the process from the outset - NPWS was never able to provide us with the reasons for its implementation, at any time - no evidence of need whatsoever. It was clearly the brainchild of ideology - two individuals, one from DII and the other from NPWS, simply decided that this was something they could do to make their mark. When those with power, who oversee our activities, make arbitary decisions and can't objectively justify them, we have a big problem. 

2. It became very obvious that the assurances of a transparent, consultative process were very hollow indeed. The dept wasn't interested in consultation, it had an agenda and may have been seeking support from some of the most knowledgeable herp keepers in the country. During the process, the committee involved itself in hundreds of hours of discussion in good faith - these individuals gave their time freely, and in my case, meetings involved travel from Port Macquarie - nine hours of my time and its consequent expenses on a dozen or so occasions.

3. When it became obvious that the invited consultative group was unanimously opposed to the infliction of the Code on keepers as law, rather than best recommendations, the invited committee was entirely shut out of any further discussion on the matter. And I mean totally... we had to resort to FOI to get an idea of where the Dept was going with the Code of Practice. When bureaucrats resort to secretive means to achieve their goals, despite assurances or "transparency" and "consultation," we're in dangerous waters. It means they can basically do whatever they like and, with the ear of a compliant Minister, enshrine into law anything that takes their fancy, justified or not. In this case, the laws were not, and thus are not, justified.

The "stink" was at least as much about the process as it was about the outcome. From where I stand, no government office should impose any legislation which affects a particular group of people, without clear evidence that it is justified. This was never done, and it infringes the rights of keepers across the State.

Jamie

- - - Updated - - -



Bluetongue1 said:


> On re-reading the last few pages I feel the need to comment. I was half way through constructing a post in response to that from *delightfulpythons* when *longirostris* beat me to. So I settled for a general statement that It is often difficult to know whether people are offering wisdom based on experience or jaded opinions due to past experience. I did not realise *Pythoninfinite* had posted before me. I now regret not having completed and posted my original response, which I have now done....
> 
> 1. This first statment by delightful pythons could hardly be more negative. There is a chinese proveb that states... A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. This is a starting point and if DP read the entire thread then he would know that expansion into other areas has been discussed and taken on board. Irrespective, why take the negative attitude that "we have already shot ourselves in the foot". Why not take the positive stance of, OK, you have made a good start and to keep it going you need to expand by....."
> 
> ...



Mike, you need to develop a thicker skin mate. Longirostris and I can discuss whatever we may need to without your summary assessments and judgements about what may or may not be implicit in what we write - you do this frequently and it is extremely irritating. I haven't bothered to re read my post to longirostris, but I certainly did not mean to "personalise" it. I'm sure that longirostris is a perfectly fine fellow/girl despite my challenge to what he/she said. I reserve the right to engage in any discussion with members here without your involvement or approval. Unlike you, most (probably all) of the respondents to this thread actually keep reptiles and speak from experience, rather than crawl the web looking for info. It brings into focus a comment I made earlier in this thread - face-to-face contact is far more productive than electronic exchange - you might find that bp has a lot to offer if you met him personally.

Any success that comes out of this discussion will be a result of robust exchange of ideas - we are all of the view that we need good advocacy, and we probably all have something to contribute. 

Your own methods of managing debate here are authoritarian and very often patronising.

Jamie


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## zulu (May 23, 2014)

Jamie you know that the code of practice was response to the animal welfare concerns of selling reptiles in petshops. Jeff Hardy had flagged all of this years back and it was not popular so it was put on the back burner.
Simply all that NPWS is doing is folowing the study that they had done years back by a contracted biologist .
Presume the next step is the selling of some class 2 species and widening of class ones in pet stores once the first phase is completed.


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## champagne (May 23, 2014)

....

- - - Updated - - -



Pythoninfinite said:


> Just to correct the record insitu, you oversimplify the matter of the "stink" you suggest the NSW Code of Practice caused amongst reptile keepers and those participating in the "consultation" sought by NSW NPWS.
> 
> 1. There was a very significant problem with the matter and the process from the outset - NPWS was never able to provide us with the reasons for its implementation, at any time - no evidence of need whatsoever. It was clearly the brainchild of ideology - two individuals, one from DII and the other from NPWS, simply decided that this was something they could do to make their mark. When those with power, who oversee our activities, make arbitary decisions and can't objectively justify them, we have a big problem.
> 
> ...



when the people trying to get this off the ground are acting like this over bs comments, what chance does it really have?


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## Pythoninfinite (May 23, 2014)

Col, it's interesting that the selling of reptiles in petshops and the requirements petshops needed to meet were never mentioned at our meetings with NPWS, not even once, and the discussions they were having with the pet shop people, during the same period, were not alluded to, even once. It was as though there were two parallel universes, with not even the smallest area of crossover. I have no idea why there was no possibility for mutual exchange, but the two streams were kept entirely separate. Only because of external connections were we aware that there were other matters being developed. I don't believe that any work done previously by a contracted biologist was used as a reference point by NPWS, if it was it was never mentioned to us.

The Dept moves in mysterious ways... 

Jamie


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## marcus0002 (May 23, 2014)

I see this all too often on this forum. People get easily offended over nothing. It is definitely one factor in why people are migrating over to facebook groups. If this group is going to get off the ground a lot of people need to harden up and get on with the job.


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## insitu (May 23, 2014)

Of course i over simplified it Jamie, Its APS, its not worth my time trying to complicate it so i gave a general statement to push forward a general point, which was we need to lift our game, if that means the authorities need to make boundaries for us to follow then so be it, gone are the days where you kept elephants in small iron cells and parrots in tiny cages yet when someone has a snake that wont eat i see 100 posts of "take it out of its enclosure, put it in a click clack with paper and a cardboard hide and put it in the dark on a heat mat"

lets break that down to someone outside the hobbys view 

put it in a small plastic tupperware container 
give it nothing to crawl on
throw in a toilet roll 
and stuff it in a dark corner away from natural light 

now by all means i keep a lot of my smaller snakes in small plastic containers but i use substrates depending on the species im keeping and the outcome i want it to do, i have rocks branches and most of the stuff you use in a well decorated display enclosure inside a tiny click clack, they have access to a photo period and i find if i change one to paper and a toilet roll they stop feeding, the culture of this hobby has been built on cheap easy and space efficient practices not whats best for the animal and my point was we need to raise the bar of what we are doing, if that means we are given rules and can no longer do what ever we decide we want too, then at this point i only see it as a good thing


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## Pythoninfinite (May 23, 2014)

Marcus and champagne, I've been around herpers for long enough to have developed the requisite thick skin, and I never engage in private messaging with members who want to be aggressive or troublesome - ALL the matters I discuss and have opinions about are here on the forum for all to see. That serves to keep me grounded. I am ALWAYS happy to be corrected when in error, and I'm also very happy to say "I don't know..." when it's appropriate. Not that it is very often... lol... that was a joke !

Marcus, with all due respect, I think Facebook has more potential to be an extremely destructive force in many people's lives, given the number of youngsters who harm themselves or even take their own lives because of bullying etc. But I'm sure that well managed social media of all sorts, even APS, can have a place in people's lives. I'm not a Facebook person simply because I don't have enough time to spend on these things. 

Jamie


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## Wild~Touch (May 23, 2014)

With respect

The Dept moves in mysterious ways...

In all reality ... they just protect the multi million dollar business that pet shops bring.....whether they sell reptiles or not.

It is all about the evil dollar nothing more nothing less .. take a look at what they are allowing to happen in the Reef area


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## zulu (May 23, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Col, it's interesting that the selling of reptiles in petshops and the requirements petshops needed to meet were never mentioned at our meetings with NPWS, not even once, and the discussions they were having with the pet shop people, during the same period, were not alluded to, even once. It was as though there were two parallel universes, with not even the smallest area of crossover. I have no idea why there was no possibility for mutual exchange, but the two streams were kept entirely separate. Only because of external connections were we aware that there were other matters being developed. I don't believe that any work done previously by a contracted biologist was used as a reference point by NPWS, if it was it was never mentioned to us.
> 
> The Dept moves in mysterious ways...
> 
> Jamie



What did you think they was putting together the code for? It was public knowlege that they needed to implemented the code before the petshops in NSW could sell.
Even Jeff Hardy addressed the issue on aussie pythons several years back ,from memory i think the biologist was Miranda Gotto ? some years back ,was on the forums. 
Need to get you a military uniform a pair of handcuffs so they take notice ,private helicopter so when you land outside the hurstville office rangers will go juicy and flail about the place on your arrival .


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## insitu (May 23, 2014)

hahahaha and dark shades, dont forget the dark shades or no one will take you seriously


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## Pythoninfinite (May 23, 2014)

zulu said:


> What did you think they was putting together the code for? It was public knowlege that they needed to implemented the code before the petshops in NSW could sell.
> Even Jeff Hardy addressed the issue on aussie pythons several years back ,from memory i think the biologist was Miranda Gotto ? some years back ,was on the forums.
> Need to get you a military uniform a pair of handcuffs so they take notice ,private helicopter so when you land outside the hurstville office rangers will go juicy and flail about the place on your arrival .



Fair go Col - there were 11 others involved directly as well, so it wasn't just me lol! I like the idea of a helicopter though, it would have cut down my transit time from Port Macquarie, but I guess it's a bit late for that now ! Yes, Miranda was involved, but as leader of the first meetings along with Brendan Neilly. Her role as a biologist was never mentioned. Jeff Hardy was long gone, his influence and his legacy had been wiped from the record pretty much by then. (He had retired and joined the enemy - becoming a reptile keeper himself...).

Jamie

- - - Updated - - -



insitu said:


> hahahaha and dark shades, dont forget the dark shades or no one will take you seriously



Do people take me seriously now? Maybe it's because I don't wear dark glasses... 

J


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## Waterrat (May 23, 2014)

Facebook v Forums

I am one of many deserters from all forums and I am enjoying many meaningful discussions on FB without being mocked and ridiculed like here. Replace the aliases with real names and things will change, the keyboard warriors will loose their protective shields.

Are there any positive replies / suggestions to Gavin's last post? Anybody in capital cities ready to stand up and take an active role in representing their state? Lets get back on the track.

Michael


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## zulu (May 23, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Fair go Col - there were 11 others involved directly as well, so it wasn't just me lol! I like the idea of a helicopter though, it would have cut down my transit time from Port Macquarie, but I guess it's a bit late for that now ! Yes, Miranda was involved, but as leader of the first meetings along with Brendan Neilly. Her role as a biologist was never mentioned. Jeff Hardy was long gone, his influence and his legacy had been wiped from the record pretty much by then. (He had retired and joined the enemy - becoming a reptile keeper himself...).
> 
> Jamie
> 
> ...



Righto ,so she was there with brendan neily ,she was there because she was the brains behind it and the implementaion of the petshop process wasnt any secret as she was commissioned by NPWS.
You know as well as i do and its still on the old threads aussie pythons with Jeff Hardy (and you replied in the threads also)/ That jeff in answers to a thread about petshops in NSW stated that the animal welfare concerns would have to be addressed first .
No good making large excessively complicated posts if your not shooting straight .


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## Pythoninfinite (May 23, 2014)

I'm not doubting you for a minute Col, but when this discussion process started with the so-called advisory group, Jeff Hardy was long gone from NPWS, I only moved to NSW in 2005 and it was at least 2-3 years before I found my feet, and then I was only included in the advisory group because I was vice-president of the North Coast Herp Group at the time. I had very little knowledge of NSW herp politics then. Being a long-term local, you'd have a far better idea of the chronology of all these things and I'm sure you're better networked than I was or ever will be up here on the mid-north coast. 

Before the first meeting, I'd never even heard of Brendan Neilly or Miranda Whatever her name is... and Daniel Van Dyk - another contracted individual on a mission. I wasn't involved in the pet-shop thing at all, either as its own entity or in conjunction with the general keeper's Code of Practice. Was Jeff Hardy writng as an NPWS officer or a private individual at the time? But I can show you the stuff we got through FOI that very clearly indicates that the driving force behind the whole "putting it into law" thing was an individual in the Dept of Industry and Investment - when NPWS was about to agree to the Code being a set of recommendations, he dumped on them from a great height, telling them in no uncertain terms that the whole reason for the existence of the Code was to make it enforceable in a court of law and to facilitate successful prosecutions.

Sorry if I'm sounding as vague as Arthur Sinodinos at the moment, but I think you're crediting me with more knowledge than I actually have, but I'll be happy to be directed to the threads on APS where all this happened to refresh my memory. I don't need to defend myself because I'm only revisiting things as I remember them to be at the time. I don't think my posts have been excessively complicated - just a recollection of events as I knew them. I'm sure Peter Harlow, Glenn Shea, John Weigel, Anthony Stimson, Mike Duncan, Warwick Denshire and the others will concur with my recollection, but I can't really speak for them. Happy to be corrected though...

I think this matter has been done to death, but for some reason I feel like you're trying to catch me out Col. I have no agenda beyond relating our experience with NPWS from a negotiating perspective - it was dismal and the NPWS individuals proved themselves to be very untrustworthy.

Jamie


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## shamat (May 23, 2014)

I have no knowledge about the historical events. I am relatively new to owning reptiles and certainly not qualified to comment on all the back and forth I have seen in this thread.

This being said, I am highly passionate about many things related to this thread, herps and politics included. As such, I feel compelled to express a concern about the sheer amount of energy and time spent looking backwards and very little constructive comment from the (bulk of the)movement around moving forward.

I know we must understand past events in order to plan for the future, but people, come on.... be aware of past events but do not waste energy trivialising it. If we had the same passion in moving forward as a UNIFIED FRONT for the better of all Herp lovers - keepers, breeder, pet shops and even the kids who dream of one day owing a reptile. - I believe we would be in a better place. Its not all about US. 

I'm sorry if I've offend and am perpetrated fro negative comments to pursue if people feel compelled to do so. Its all OK, I've already got the "thick skin".

Also, I'd like to publicly thank those of you who have tried to get this off the ground for so long... it is indeed a difficult and selfless course to navigate.

Mat

Sent from my Surface Pro 2 using Tapatalk


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## glebo (May 23, 2014)

Maybe this is as good a time as any to ask what we should be called. Please come up with some names and acronyms that will identify and define who we are and what we do. I agree with Mat, we need to be looking forward and work as a team to achieve something. I know many of you will ask 'well what is that we will do?' and may need this answered before you can decide on a name. I would suggest that it is a body that will look at many aspects of the amateur reptile/herp hobby and try to give them all a voice at an Australia wide level when it comes to anything connected with them such as permits, conservation, keeping, advocacy at national level, research, pet industry, conduct and many other yet to be mentioned guiding topics. However, please dont get hung up on what it will or wont do right now, there is plenty of time to formulate a list and prioritise it. At his stage I think we just need a suitable name so we can put together a suitable and dedicated web site from which we can move toward these other attributes. If you have an idea and want it to remain confidential please PM me, but if you dont mind sharing then by all means come up with something and let us all see it. The whole idea is for US to have a voice and I tend to be a team player and want you all on that team so feel free to have a go. Cheers
Gavin


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## marcus0002 (May 23, 2014)

Reptiles Australia. Simple and easy to remember. Adding Amphibian to it makes it to many syllables and nobody outside the hobby knows what herp means

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## RedFox (May 24, 2014)

Australian Reptile Keepers Association (ARKA) 

Anyone else? I agree with Marcus that Herpetology or herpetological shouldn't be used, to avoid confusion with the already established herp societies.


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## mangrove (May 24, 2014)

Australian Association of Reptile Keepers - AARK


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## junglepython2 (May 24, 2014)

To all those in QLD that implied they wouldn't want to be part of a national organisation as they are happy with the status quo. It appears there maybe plans afoot to cap restricted reptiles to 20 per license. If this is allowed it well may be a slippery slope from there.


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## RedFox (May 24, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> To all those in QLD that implied they wouldn't want to be part of a national organisation as they are happy with the status quo. It appears there maybe plans afoot to cap restricted reptiles to 20 per license. If this is allowed it well may be a slippery slope from there.



This involves capping vens to 20 animals due to 'them being a risk to public safety'. There has being a bit of talk about this on elapid fb pages over the last few days. At the moment they are just rumors, hopefully they stay that way. If vens were to be capped it could imply other reptiles would eventually be capped as well. QLD while having a fairly good license system compared to the other states, still has the chance of further restrictions affecting the hobby.


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## insitu (May 24, 2014)

RedFox said:


> Australian Reptile Keepers Association (ARKA)
> 
> Anyone else? I agree with Marcus that Herpetology or herpetological shouldn't be used, to avoid confusion with the already established herp societies.



I like it! it means i dont have to buy another shirt






kids size small and been a while since iv put it on but that size seems to be what all the blokes my age are wearing these days anyway


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## stencorp69 (May 24, 2014)

Pretty easy to see why the national body didn't get off the ground - too much diversity and not enough unity. There just doesn't seem to be a common enough enemy to bind us all together.


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## eipper (May 24, 2014)

Gavin and Co.,

I have said it before I will say it again. If there is something I can assist with let me know

cheers
Scott Eipper


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## Slickturtle (May 25, 2014)

*A NATIONAL REPRESENTATIVE HERP BODY*

*WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
*
Hi all - Greg Miles here again. 

Shown below is a list of ideas to kick around. I apologise if there is a bit of duplication here and there.

These are just my ideas. Mike Cermak has some good points too. (I added his list below for your convenience) 

Of this list, what would be important to you? Is there anything that you would add or want to expand upon? Is there anything that you would want deleted from this list and that of Mike’s? I know that some of the ideas would be very difficult to achieve, or take a lifetime to achieve, but I don't see a problem with putting them out there to look at. They all contribute to help putting us on the same page - if you know what I mean?!

Maybe you will tell me that I am dreaming! Probably a fair comment too. But every marathon starts with the first step!!

*Benefits for hobbyists. (“What’s in it for me?”) Aims:*


Simplify and rationalise the various state laws and policies.
Dramatically expand the range of species that can be kept in all states – including Threatened Species.
Push for changes in legislation in order to allow captive bred reptiles (including Threatened Species) to be exported overseas commercially.
Turn around the perception that the ‘commercialisation of wildlife’ (in this case “herpetoculture”) is a bad thing. It is not necessarily a bad thing at all. If the Govt. agencies can learn to see that trading in reptiles can have positive conservation outcomes, the flow-on from that could make life a lot easier for everyone.
Revise the interface between the hobbyists and government agencies from one of distrust, to one whereby they see (most) hobbyists as a positive resource that can be engaged for mutual benefit.
Build trust with Govt. agencies to the point where they recruit selected hobbyists to trial the captive management of certain rare, and or declining species. Chance that some Govt. funding could come with this.
Build connections with the research community to the point where hobbyists can work (volunteer) in the field with reptile biologists. I.E. a working holiday with rare reptiles at exotic locations.
Build relationships with the major zoos and wildlife parks in order for hobbyists to become an extension to their reptile breeding and conservation programs. (If they want that)
Develop agreed policy positions on the more contentions reptiles. I.E. provide an appropriate and strong framework catering for the needs of people who keep morphs, venomous species, large Varanids and large pythons.
Provide an education program that can include a series of national reptile conferences, which would be attended by hobbyists at little or no cost. They could precede or follow on from state expos.
Develop programs that would engage more young people to enter the hobby and develop skills. This could involve new arenas such as the keeping of communities of small skinks – rare or common.
 

List from *Mike Cermak*:
_1. Abolish interstate trade restrictions – no import / export permits._
_2. Allow trading with all species privately as well as at reptile expos in all States and Territories, not just selected species – if they were all bred in captivity._
_3. Abolish annual returns (already existing and successful in Qld)._
_4. Provide guidance to keepers instead of enforceable restrictions, e.g. cage sizes._
_5. Stop referring to captive bred reptiles as “wildlife” because it is not. It’s a product of herpetoculture._
_6. Make uniform laws / regulations / procedures nation wide._
_7. Abolish the 6 months holding period, it’s futile and often ignored by keepers._
_8. Implement restrictions and regulations only when it concerns conservation of species._


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## chimerapro (May 25, 2014)

https://m.facebook.com/NARKRB 
National Austrlian Reptile Keepers Regulatory Body is my suggestion for a name. I'm already trying to show my support in what little way I know how. Greg I never had the chance to introduce myself at the Ipswich expo but I had a quick chat with Gavin. I wish to offer my support and seek guidance as to how I can help in whatever way possible. I'm planning a trip to NT soon in the hopes of meeting with you both and discussing more with you face to face.


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## Slickturtle (May 25, 2014)

chimerapro said:


> https://m.facebook.com/NARKRB
> National Austrlian Reptile Keepers Regulatory Body is my suggestion for a name. I'm already trying to show my support in what little way I know how. Greg I never had the chance to introduce myself at the Ipswich expo but I had a quick chat with Gavin. I wish to offer my support and seek guidance as to how I can help in whatever way possible. I'm planning a trip to NT soon in the hopes of meeting with you both and discussing more with you face to face.




Thanks for that Chimerapro

I am heading interstate for a few weeks on Wednesday. So I will give you a call later.

- - - Updated - - -



- - - Updated - - -






- - - Updated - - -

Hi all.

Here is another instalment showing what a national reptile keepers body could look like and do. Once again, these are just ideas. There is nothing hard and fast about this. We want to hear what you think.
*
Major Functions of a national reptile keepers body.*
*1. *Represent the hobby in a nationally unified way. And make life easier and more rewarding for reptile keepers!
*2. *Improve conservation outcomes for some Australian reptiles and frogs
*3. *Develop national unity amongst reptile keepers. 
*4. *Develop agreed policy positions on the more contentions reptiles.
*5. *Interfacing professionals with amateurs. 
*6. *Networking. 
*7. *Increase public exposure through strategic use of the media.

*1. **Represent the hobby in a nationally unified way*


Can lobby state and federal politicians with the weight of a nation-wide membership behind us.
Can show a massed and united front to elected parliamentarians and departmental bureaucrats.
May be able to branch out to make ideological allies of other native animal keepers groups such as the aviculturalists, aquarists and mammal botherers. In an ideal world we could ultimately form a united front where issues of common concern occur.
Can invigorate more keepers around Australia to join up to what we do.
Provide a first point of contact for state and federal policy making bodies.
Can develop workable codes of conduct as they pertain to animal welfare issues. This being to try to head off such things being imposed on the hobby from outside.
Create strength in numbers. We estimate that there are about 60,000 licenced native animal keepers in Oz., mainly reptile keepers. If we get our way – in 10 years or so – there could be 200,000. These numbers would/could carry considerable force in government circles.
Could estimate the economic and (potential) conservation value of our hobby nationally and use this to advance our aims.


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## shamat (May 26, 2014)

Great starting point. I think a nationwide member based organisation with some form of minimal membership fee should be seriously considered. This would enable those who have no other means of contribution to the cause to be involved and would generate funds for market awareness campaigns and assist in the significant cost associated with what we are trying to do for all those involved. 

Sent from my HUAWEI MT1-U06 using Tapatalk


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## Bushman (May 26, 2014)

That's an excellent overview Greg. It's great to see such well respected herpers such yourself getting involved with this. We need such figureheads, so as to give credibility and political clout to the cause. It also helps tremendously in gaining widespread support, without which these sorts of undertakings are unlikely to succeed.
Everyone should be very grateful that we have such first class representatives stepping up to make something happen. 

Where to from here? I reckon that good leaders need a good team behind them. You guys can delegate tasks to competent and diplomatic volunteers. I urge everyone that is willing and able to help in some way to lend their support and give their time freely to those leading this initiative. If we stand idly by doing nothing, you can bet your bottom dollar that there are forces at work as we speak, that are actively seeking to further their control, interfere and mismanage our hobby and passion for herpetology. Let's not take our current privileges for granted.

You have our full support Greg, Gavin, Mike, Jamie & co. If there's anything that APS can do to further the cause just let us now.


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## Newhere (May 26, 2014)

So is this happening or are we all just dreaming? I reckon pick a name by the end of the week and get started on the website so we can all sign up. Someone start a thread about name suggestions and we can pick the best one that way everyone gets a say. Been watching this thread for a while and its just dragging out when its something that everyone wants so lets get to it.


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## Slickturtle (May 26, 2014)

Slow down Newhere. I appreciate your comment, but we are still 'lining up the ducks'. What we are doing here is laying out all the things that could come across the desk of a national body. By detailing it here for all to read them people will get a better idea of what is or is not good in their view. Once it has all been laid out, we go the next step - which include the web site which is being designed right now.

As for settling on the name, I know very little about forums and struggle to post a post - let alone "start a new thread". LOL 

I will leave that up to someone else. But in the meantime here is something else to think about. These are ideas about reptile conservation benefits that could come from a national body. Whadoyareckon Newhere? : - 

*2. Improve Conservation outcomes for reptiles.*

Advanced keepers should be able to keep, breed and trade in captive bred reptiles, including endangered species. In terms of rare species, exportation would be promoted as a conservation activity aimed at forestalling extinction of a declining species in this country - while the relevant authorities find a fix for the cause of the declines in the wild. You could call it an “ex-situ, anti-extinction” activity if you like. The 'International Union for the Conservation of Nature' (one of the world highest rating international conservation bodies) support this idea. The Endangered Gouldian Finch is an example of this. E.G. There are more Gouldians breeding in captivity overseas, than exist in the wild in Australia.
Help the Government conservation agencies to understand that increased ‘legal’ breeding and trading in reptiles can destroy the illegal wildlife trafficker’s business model and stop poaching dead in its tracks.
Urge the Government conservation agencies to actively promote and nurture the keeping and breeding of rare species amongst private keepers. This could develop into a new and important conservation arm of the agencies. A logical spinoff from this would be genuine conservation benefit for rare species, as opposed to the current expenditure on compliance, which has dubious conservation benefit for most (maybe any) species.
Lobby Govt. agencies to have most common reptiles removed from the “permitted” species lists. The permit system does little or nothing to improve the conservation status of common species and yet it can cost state governments millions of dollars in compliance costs. These dollars would be better spent on real conservation projects. The government agencie’s core role is the conservation of species, not the welfare of individual animals. This points needs to be driven home to state politicians, policy makers and the public at large.
The advanced keepers will develop the husbandry techniques needed to keep and breed Threatened Species. This knowledge would then be passed down the line to regular keepers who purchase captive bred endangered species from the advanced keepers. It would all be done hand in glove with the wildlife authorities up to the point when the species becomes common in captivity. The Rough Scaled Python is an example of this. I recognise of course that this will most likely apply only to the bigger, prettier and charismatic species. As for who will save the small, brown and boring – well that is exactly what a national body like this should concern itself with.
Urge the Federal conservation agencies to develop protocols for the commercial trade of captive bred Australian reptiles overseas.


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## Newhere (May 26, 2014)

There are some really good ideas there mate, are you suggesting legal trading in non native reptiles aswell or just exporting natives?


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## jacorin (May 26, 2014)

well i threw this discussion out there in FB land in some reptile groups that i'm in.... within 2 mins i'd been flamed badly about "it's an old discussion...not this again.....yada yada yada" 

so that shows how little the outside thinks of the idea


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## Slickturtle (May 26, 2014)

Newhere said:


> There are some really good ideas there mate, are you suggesting legal trading in non native reptiles aswell or just exporting natives?



In an ideal world I would very much like to see a well managed hobby keeping, breeding and exporting exotics. I can see huge conservation benefits there - not so much for Australia - but for the country of origin. One only has to look at the desperate plight of some reptiles from Madagascar (see Wildlife Extra News - 500 tortoises saved from pet trade in Madagascar). Why can't we breed them here and make money from them at the same time as destroying the poachers business and guaranteeing that the species will not go extinct? But that ain't gonna happen anytime soon because our bureaucrats are sooo conservative and sooo cautious that such an idea would be impossible for them to grasp. Why can't we be allowed to breed and sell Madagascar's highly endangered and mouthwateringly beautiful chameleons for instance? We have the climate in much of Australia - and the talent. It could be a good little earner for the Government too.

But sadly no, I am only talking about natives - at this stage. But ideas like the one I pose above are the sort of thing that a national body could campaign for.


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2014)

jacorin (and others), not everyone is going to like / support / even say good things about the proposed organization, that's unfortunate but understandable. Try to look at it this way: we have a government that few people like and support, there are those who don't care and there is also an army of haters. But we still have a government that runs the country as a unit which is respected by other countries. Just imagine if we didn't have any government, it would be chaos and we would be the laughing stock of the world ...... and that's exactly what we (herpers) are right now in the eyes of the ruling wildlife bureaucrats.

cheers
Michael


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## Slickturtle (May 26, 2014)

jacorin said:


> well i threw this discussion out there in FB land in some reptile groups that i'm in.... within 2 mins i'd been flamed badly about "it's an old discussion...not this again.....yada yada yada"
> 
> so that shows how little the outside thinks of the idea



Hi jacorin

That is OK. For many people the idea is a difficult one to grasp. And getting something like this up and running from scratch is an extremely difficult thing to do. Rome wasn't built in a day and we can but do our best. What we have to do is focus in on, "What's in it for me." That is part of the reason that I am laying out the 'big picture' in bite sized pieces. If it is widely rejected - then so be it.

We take comfort from knowing that there are really big numbers of people (and key people) who support it as well and are prepared to be involved. We have no problem with critics watching from the sidelines - so long as they don't throw hand grenades over our fence! The gate will always be unlocked for them to come in. LOL

Thanks for your comment. We will soldier on!!


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## insitu (May 26, 2014)

Before we decide to tackle projects like importing and exporting,keeping exotic species etc id imagine to become a united industry we would need national standards across all states such as a national licence not a state licence, included in that id imagine would come national caging standards, which id then assume would follow animal welfare standards as i dont see NSW dropping their standards to below welfares, that would mean no more tub rack systems across australia for adult animals, changing the legislation of each state to a nation ven lic which would mean possibly no more paying extra for a ven endorsement and possibly 5 yrs of keeping to aquire the top level ven lic, I would like to see crocodiles in more states than the southern ones but again that would probably mean changing the southern states caging sizes to suit welfare standards which is well above the fishtanks people keep them in, if we as a hobby were to breed endangered species as a conservation effort id imagine that would require stud books, stud book keepers, taxon advisory groups etc and so on and that would mean no more line breeding and breeding for selected traits etc etc.................. Personally i can see it as a good thing if its managed right and unbiased with the right intentions, but exporting and etc i only see as a dollar spinner and for me thats not the right intentions, as for legalizing trafficking well it didnt help any species of varanid or python and so on in indonesia did it, infact it did the opposite


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## junglepython2 (May 26, 2014)

There seems to be a lot of focus on "exporting" native reptiles overseas. While I am not necessarily opposed to the idea I think the organisation should at least initially focus on protecting the current rights we have and working on the more pressing issues we face.


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## wokka (May 26, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> There seems to be a lot of focus on "exporting" native reptiles overseas. While I am not necessarily opposed to the idea I think the organisation should at least initially focus on protecting the current rights we have and working on the more pressing issues we face.


The illegal shipment/smuggling of animals to and from overseas is responsible for major welfare ,environmental damage and biosecurity risks which may compromise both captive and wild populations. Legal movement protocols can address many of the current risks as opposed to the current head in the sand licencing which does nothing to help either captive or wild animals.


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## Owzi (May 26, 2014)

Slickturtle said:


> *2. Improve Conservation outcomes for reptiles.*
> 
> Advanced keepers should be able to keep, breed and trade in captive bred reptiles, including endangered species. In terms of rare species, exportation would be promoted as a conservation activity aimed at forestalling extinction of a declining species in this country - while the relevant authorities find a fix for the cause of the declines in the wild. You could call it an “ex-situ, anti-extinction” activity if you like. The 'International Union for the Conservation of Nature' (one of the world highest rating international conservation bodies) support this idea. The Endangered Gouldian Finch is an example of this. E.G. There are more Gouldians breeding in captivity overseas, than exist in the wild in Australia.
> Help the Government conservation agencies to understand that increased ‘legal’ breeding and trading in reptiles can destroy the illegal wildlife trafficker’s business model and stop poaching dead in its tracks.
> ...



Brilliant post & I agree 110% with these points!
People put zoos on such a pedestal, yeah some are great but I have also seen some private keepers/breeders set ups that would rival many zoos. Particularly when a private keeper focuses on one species. Many first time captive breeding success stories have come from private breeders. 
To me it makes absolute sense to allow someone with the knowledge, skills, passion, dedication, drive & willingness to fund a private breeding project of an endangered species the opportunity to do so.


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## Ramsayi (May 26, 2014)

It's good to see some highly experienced people willing to get this off the ground.Others have had a go in the past with zero success.Time to let this fresh group have a crack at it which in my mind would most likely be able to garner enough support to make it happen.


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## Waterrat (May 26, 2014)

Greg, don't take much notice what's said here or on facebook or other social media. There is a silence majority out there who are watching, reading and thinking. They are the stronghold that will support this movement.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 26, 2014)

Although it does seem to be putting the cart before the horse a bit, the organisation really does need to have a name very early on, so it can be built as a proper legal entity from day one, particularly because it will be taking members money, probably from day one. I'm assuming it will need to be an incorporated body, this facilitates the setting up of bank accounts and all those structural things, and means that the body must be accountable for every cent whenever audited.

If I recall, to have a body like this incorporated, you need to have all the office-bearers named and in place, similarly to establish bank accounts for an incorporated body. So there's a bit of work to do to get the show up and running. 

The names I'd find easy are ARKA - Australian Reptile Keepers Association, or one I find even more appealing - OzARK - Oz Association of Reptile Keepers. This dovetails nicely with USARK, and although I haven't followed their developing philosophy, if it was agreeable perhaps the Australian body could seek some sort of affiliation with our US counterparts. Just a thought bubble really. I've had a couple of quite long yarns with Brian Barczyk about our plight and the parallels with what the Yanks are dealing with now. It won't be too long before the influences that have successfully infected herp politics in the US will cast their eyes in our direction - the world is shrinking every day, and animal RIGHTS lobbyists can very easily dress up their debates as animal WELFARE to make them palatable even to reptile keepers. They are patient, skilled at politics and they are extremely well funded. 

Jamie


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 27, 2014)

...


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## Slickturtle (May 27, 2014)

Hi in situ and jungle python 2.

You are both correct. We certainly need to deal with the 'here and now' first. It could be many years before something like international export is tacked.

But what I am doing is posting the 'big picture' of all the things that this body might do - eventually. I probably should have moved the international export bit further down the list to give it less prominence. The things that you list are the things that would be tackled in the short term.

BTW in situ, have you got a reference for the Indonesian varanid story? I would like to find out more. I know a bit about the discovery of a news species of black and blue tree monitor in north west West Papua. Was it that story?


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## insitu (May 27, 2014)

no greg it was more in relation to exporting of wild caught animals to countries that do allow importation, thousands of chondros, prasinus the blue, yellow, and black flavors from tiny islands have been exploited for decades, legalizing exportation will only open up easier loop holes to move wild caught animals in my opinion, the average keeper here doesnt have the funds or the facility to ready our animals for export, plus overseas they have every cross bred form of reptile we have in collections, their more interested in localitys bar a very small minority of what we keep, i mean look at mulgas for example, if we were allowed to export and overseas there was a high demand for the impressive top enders where lets just say their offering 10k an animal, considering there are very little being bred in captivity what do you think will happen to the remaining small populations left in the top end?.

as for the bigger picture of the idea I think it has some merit but im struggling to work out if thats from my hopes and dreams of it or its actual intentions and yes im one that will take a little more convincing than just being told it will be good for all of us, i dont back a horse until iv seen it run


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## Pythoninfinite (May 27, 2014)

Thoughtful comments there insitu, and I think you're right on the money when it comes to the international movement of any wildlife from anywhere actually - despite the fact that many, if not most, species can be and are bred in captivity these days, the demand for things like small monitors across the globe will always outweigh the supply of captive bred stock, so wild poulations will always be exploited for personal gain. And it's impossible close all loopholes that allow it to happen, especially where corruption is endemic. You can get pretty much any animal in the world if you're prepared to pay enough for it.

I feel we have enough material to work on here in Oz to keep us busy with the bureaucrats for the forseeable future, without looking beyond our shores - either for inbound or outbound stock. There are deep philosophical and reasonable biosecurity reasons why we don't let reptiles in or out of the country. The biosecurity matters may be easier to address than the philosophical ones in the long run.

Jamie


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## Bushman (May 27, 2014)

I totally agree Jamie. There's more than enough work to be done domestically, as Greg concedes international trade is best put on the backburner. It may even be used against us if that is cited as being on the agenda.
This discussion has become very interesting and productive. It's very encouraging to see so much support for this idea. I admire the foresight and love the initiative that herps are taking with this. From what I can gather there's a tremendous amount of support for this venture and as mentioned a lot of this is the silent majority. We've long needed a unified approach to tackling issues and threats against us, so this is heartening to see this starting to happen.


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## Sean_L (May 27, 2014)

I agree with Bushman. Lets look locally first and move up to those more controversial issues. It'll be much harder to garner support, let alone allow this association to be passed by government if we start spouting too much change that could be construed as potentially harmful to conservation efforts. 

Ill be the one to put it out there though; this could quickly descend into a dark place. It seems that the majority of aims for this association are to lift that, abolish this, allow that; and that mightn't produce the best outlook for the future of this association. 
Don't get me wrong, I agree with this idea, but Id hate to see it stall again because of conservationists and welfare groups claiming that were just trying to be greedy. There does need to be legislation in place, im afraid. Its unavoidable. The association should be about influencing the direction of rules, not throwing them all out the window.


On a side note.....I already suggested here that private keepers should be enlisted to help conservation efforts with various species. I was shot down because it was an apparently ridiculous idea.
I hope that people genuinely believe there's environmental good behind this association and aren't just promoting it because they stand to save a buck and get away with a lot more in the future. They're the wrong reasons.


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## Slickturtle (May 27, 2014)

Hello all,

Here is another suggestion to get your teeth into. What do you think about this as a valid issue for a national body to get its teeth into? *

4. Develop agreed policy positions on contentious reptiles such as morphs, dangerous elapids, large Varanids and large pythons.*


This could be difficult and time consuming. But it could be very important. I see a situation where people who keep these things form a working group under the umbrella of the new national body. They then work up a policy covering all the aspects of their activities that cause grief to them and others. When the ‘difficult’ issues are forensically examined by this group, (with input from other relevant experts e.g. reptile vets, and risk assessors) they may come to the view that there are certain aspects of their hobby that need special attention via a code of conduct or similar. In other words, formalise self-regulation to prevent ham-fisted regulation being imposed from outside – if it is not already.
The outcome (hopefully) would be that their ‘vision statement’ and policy document could be reviewed and signed off on, by the majority of association members (Management Committee) and then held up as a strong defence against Government departments or others who would seek to outlaw the keeping of contentious species of reptiles.
If a policy document covering aspects such as animal ethics (e.g. issues around morphs), welfare, conservation, ecological integrity (if a morph escapes for instance), numbers kept, public safety, keeper safety etc. could be agreed upon – then I would hope that the entire herp community would stand behind these people to defend them and their particular interest. At the moment – in contrast – they are easy, stand-alone targets for criticism; probably unjustifiably.


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## junglepython2 (May 27, 2014)

Slickturtle said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Here is another suggestion to get your teeth into. What do you think about this as a valid issue for a national body to get its teeth into? *
> 
> ...



I agree, protecting the rights of some the easier targets such as vens and large monitor keepers is extremely important and one of the main reasons I want to see this get up and running. Though one has to be careful the working group doesn't turn into an elitist club where the working group protects their rights to keep but makes it near impossible for others to join. I guess what I am trying to say is that a lot of thought has to go into the selection of any such working groups so it doesn't turn into a few mates banding together and calling all the shots as some of these minority groups are very cliquey and spiteful towards other keepers in their same field.


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## Pythoninfinite (May 27, 2014)

Sean_L said:


> I agree with Bushman. Lets look locally first and move up to those more controversial issues. It'll be much harder to garner support, let alone allow this association to be passed by government if we start spouting too much change that could be construed as potentially harmful to conservation efforts.
> 
> Ill be the one to put it out there though; this could quickly descend into a dark place. It seems that the majority of aims for this association are to lift that, abolish this, allow that; and that mightn't produce the best outlook for the future of this association.
> Don't get me wrong, I agree with this idea, but Id hate to see it stall again because of conservationists and welfare groups claiming that were just trying to be greedy. There does need to be legislation in place, im afraid. Its unavoidable. The association should be about influencing the direction of rules, not throwing them all out the window.
> ...



I totally agree Sean - whatever the shape of any group that is built out of this becomes, it must be able to see that there are at least two sides to any narrative - there must be give and take, and a genuine understanding of all the issues on both sides of the fence. There will be some no-brainers like the totally idiotic "Farmer's Licence" and restrictions on breeding and disposal of progeny imposed by (then) CALM in WA, which simply defy logic, but especially with conservation concerns, a demonstrated preparedness to share common concerns would be essential. The older bureaucrats (many of whom have been holding the power for decades) will always be resistant to change, but there must eventually be a changing of the guard, hopefully they might be a bit more pragmatic.

Jamie


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## Radar (May 27, 2014)

Once people realise they way things are heading they will support this movement. Many casual keepers need to be shown what they are in for if we don't band together, and how different things could be if we do.


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## Slickturtle (May 28, 2014)

Hi all

Thanks for staying with me. Only a couple more posts to go. here is the lutes bunch of ideas. Many of these are obvious and won't come as a surprise. But the intention here is to cover off on as many functions of a national body that we can think of.
*
Benefits of National Unity*


Bring together organisations and individuals within the states and territories, with a common voice. Not merging with them, but linking with them.
By forming links with as many state and territory herp groups as we can, we could become a vehicle for inter-communications between them all for the benefit of all. E.g. any articles, stories or other items of interest that we put on out web page could be copied to their web pages or blogs for general information and vice versa.
Create a ‘strength in numbers’ scenario, which cannot be matched by individual states.
Lobby state Governments towards streamlining or rationalising the administration of reptile keeping nation wide, e.g. some measures of standardisation in the current, extremely diverse reptile regulations.
 
*Interface Professionals with Amateurs *


Provide a national opportunity for amateurs and professional herpetologists (academics, museum people and conservation biologists) to find common ground and exchange ideas and knowledge. Our planned web site is one vehicle for this - national conferences may be another.
We would actively promote and where possible, assist herpetological research in Oz.


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## -Peter (May 28, 2014)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> ...



Oh yes you should!


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## Slickturtle (May 28, 2014)

Here is another angle on the national group. Once again, these are just notions and there is nothing here that is hard and fast. We don't even have a steering committee yet. But if you look at these points and make a comment for others to see and comment on - then already we all are groping our way to a solid beginning.

So how about national networking - I am mindful of those people in WA and Tasmania. I understand that they live in a very restrictive environment when it comes to reptile keeping. Maybe we could give them a hand.

*Networking *
• By forming links with as many state and territory herp groups as we can, we could become the center point vehicle for inter communications between them all. IE maybe each state herp group would appoint a committee member who would be tasked with keeping in touch with us and vice versa. We would be circulating matters of national interest to the appointed individuals who would then feed it into their club, depending on its relevance to them.
• We could provide an opportunity to collaborate with, and form links with, many other organisations that have common views e.g. the big NGO conservation bodies, zoos, wildlife parks and public aquaria.
• We could create a new generation of national conferences or symposiums which would be theme based. Proceedings would be posted on our web site for all to use. Academics would be encouraged to participate.
• At the moment there are differing views on issues of mutual concern between the Govt. wildlife policy makers, their compliance people and our type of people. Our national conferences could bring these people in to present their side of things. If we could form corridors of trust between them and us, - who knows what positives could flow from this – in many directions. Similarly, we could bring in speakers from A Class zoos and aquaria, as well as academics from the museum and university world. In other words, seeking to explore issues of common interest for mutual benefit. We could also advertise speakers and events being staged by other associations. We would actively support and promote ‘sister’ organisations like the APS forum, Scales and Tails, Expos and other like-minded groups.
• We would also support and promote veterinary companies, which actively seek to be reptile husbandry experts.


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## leigh83 (May 28, 2014)

Dear Future Mrs/Mr Treasurer, I like to make a $500 donation. 

Because I believe in in this and I'm excited. Like when you go to the airport to pick up your new python excited.

as constructive as I can get, thank. 

Leigh


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## Slickturtle (May 28, 2014)

leigh83 said:


> Dear Future Mrs/Mr Treasurer, I like to make a $500 donation.
> 
> Because I believe in in this and I'm excited. Like when you go to the airport to pick up your new python excited.
> 
> ...



Gosh Leigh, You know how to write beautiful words - don't you! LOL

Your post is very uplifting indeed. We are not quite at the point of receiving money yet. As you point out, the Treasurer is not yet known, nor are any other committee members. 

But having a current bank balance of $0.00 sure makes getting anything off the ground tricky. Putting the cart before the horse is one of our problems - hang on - its the horse before the cart isn't it!

Thank you - and hang on to that promise!


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## RoryBreaker (May 28, 2014)

Without being incorporated, any donations are possibly more at risk of misappropriation. 

That being said, when the website for this new entity is up and running and if it's not incorporated at that time, some sort of donation facility could be extremely beneficial.
If donors are willing to risk their money, you might as well take it. PayPal or similar might be an option.

I think you guys will be surprised by the actions of the silent majority.


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## Stuart (May 28, 2014)

If I can assist in providing details or steps on registering an incorporated society (particularly in the NT), please let me know via PM. Steps involved are not overly complicated however the little details decided now matter later when approaching Federal Government.


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## Bushman (May 29, 2014)

leigh83 said:


> Dear Future Mrs/Mr Treasurer, I like to make a $500 donation.
> 
> Because I believe in in this and I'm excited. Like when you go to the airport to pick up your new python excited.
> 
> ...


Good on you Leigh! That's putting your money where your mouth is. 
This sort of support is vital if this initiative is going to succeed. 

I have great faith that the right people are leading this venture. Such experienced and well-respected herps such as Greg, Gavin and Jamie are ideal ambassadors and seasoned campaigners used to dealing with bureaucrats. 
It's critical that the broader herp community get behind this initiative and give it the support that it needs to get off the ground and be an effective voice for all of us. We cannot afford to be complacent about our current rights and privileges, as there are forces at work that will readily take them away.


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## Slickturtle (May 30, 2014)

Hi all

This is my last post offering an overview of what a national body might look like. With this one - as for the last few, please note that what I am proposing would or should impinge on the activities of the state and territory associations. A national body would be a close ally to and supporter of state based associations. So if you see what appears to be duplication in what I am laying out - don't worry about that as this is purely draft, or conceptual at this stage.Now, about:*
Use of the media*


A national body would be in an ideal position to form a link with media outlets to become an organisation that they go to, for opinion on relevant issues in the press. Media (radio, TV and newspapers) like to have good ‘talent’ on tap who they can call. By representing a national body, our spokespersons would be seen by the media as having expertise and authority to speak. They would automatically contact that person as issues arise. I am not sure that any such person or organisation has this role at present.
Provide a first point of contact for media inquiries into issues of our concern. IE we could speak to the media when a German backpacker is busted for trying to get a couple of shinglebacks out of Australia at Perth airport.
Being a national body with PR reps in each state could mean that we could become a ‘one stop shop’ for the media. All PR reps would be briefed on our policy positions on the full gamut of ‘difficult’ issues.
It would be excellent if we could then use direct media input, not only to correct the nonsense that often comes out at the moment, but also plug away at our central messages – i.e.:
 * not all reptile keepers are crooks,
* most reptiles thrive in captivity,
* of all the vertebrates, reptiles (along with fish and frogs) are amongst those least likely to suffer from being in captivity - if housed correctly.
* reptiles are cheap and easy to house well, compared to cats, dogs, other mammals and birds.
* increasingly, many native animal species (including reptiles) are not necessarily safe in the wild,
* many of the wildlife control laws in this country are illogical and some even pose a threat to endangered reptiles,
* much of the illegal export of Australian reptiles is a result of illogical Federal
Government laws and policies
* Australia is missing out on valuable export dollars because of these illogical laws. Only the
poachers and traffickers are making money from reptile exports at the moment.
* the private sector is often more capable of caring for endangered species than Governments departments.
* Reptile keepers can have an important role in conservation of reptiles - if only they were permitted to.
* Approximately 60% of what we know about Australian reptiles has come from keepers and others in the private sector. Etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Hi all

What a great discussion. Gavin and I want to thank you for your interest. He and I are both writing this post.

We are well aware of the procedures required to set up a formal association. So we agree totally with Bluetonge1 and Jackknife. But to “just do it” as Jamie says is a bit tricky for us at this place and time - but we will get there.

We are just two people teetering on the northern edge of the continent - well away from where you all are. But we have a plan - if you will bear with us. 

Apart from putting ‘out there’ all of the concepts in a sort of draft overview (as Greg has been doing with his posts) we are setting up a web site to be the hub of attention for our group (whatever name it might have).

We can do this with donations coming Jamie and we two, as well as from a couple of keen supporters amongst your ranks. But mainly this will be possible due to a generous offer made by a professional web designer in Sydney – who is also on this forum.

This web site will carry all of the developmental material needed to go the next step to create the formal body. It is hoped that the web site will draw in key people from around the nation. It will also be the vehicle to disseminate the developments as they happen. This forum is good, as is FaceBook, but the web site will be much more specific to our aims and will be much more dense - in terms of the quality, variety and quantity of information that we can lay before you.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and there is no ‘use by date’ on this task. So hang in there and stay with us – please!

Gavin and Greg

- - - Updated - - -

Yikes - I just discovered this in my previous post.  "Please note that what I am proposing would or should impinge on the activities of the state and territory associations."

It should have read: "Please note that what I am proposing would not or should not impinge on the activities of the state and territory associations."

What a difference a word makes. Lucky no one reads these things! LOL.


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## ShaunMorelia (Jun 23, 2014)

Just a quick post to see how this is progressing and to also bump the thread up to keep it in view 

Cheers
Shaun.


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## Virides (Jun 23, 2014)

Over the weekend I attended Reptecon for the first time. The impression I got was that it would be the perfect platform to incorporate/link the National body to.

The entire event puts all profits towards Wildcare Australia (http://wildcare.org.au/) and also gets all levels of government involved.

I see a national body not just being its own thing, but interconnecting all existing shows/events into one entity with a common central goal. Otherwise the national body will become another entity with its own agenda. As far as governments go, they much prefer to interact with a single entity with common goals than several with their own agendas.


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## Slickturtle (Jun 24, 2014)

Virides said:


> Over the weekend I attended Reptecon for the first time. The impression I got was that it would be the perfect platform to incorporate/link the National body to.
> 
> The entire event puts all profits towards Wildcare Australia (http://wildcare.org.au/) and also gets all levels of government involved.
> 
> I see a national body not just being its own thing, but interconnecting all existing shows/events into one entity with a common central goal. Otherwise the national body will become another entity with its own agenda. As far as governments go, they much prefer to interact with a single entity with common goals than several with their own agendas.



Reptecon is a good thing I reckon. They are trail blazers in many ways and good luck to them. I note that they had a very good line up of speakers this year. 

Re your last para: You are spot on. A national body could not/should not exist - except hand in glove with state associations and organisations. I would hope that each state association would have a committee member who keeps in touch with the federal body and reports back to the association on issues of mutual interest. 

Cheers

Slick

- - - Updated - - -



ShaunMorelia said:


> Just a quick post to see how this is progressing and to also bump the thread up to keep it in view
> 
> Cheers
> Shaun.



Hi Shaun

I think that Gavin is going to contact you soon. If you could PM me I can tell you what's cooking. Cheers

Slick


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## ShaunMorelia (Jun 25, 2014)

Slickturtle said:


> Re your last para: You are spot on. A national body could not/should not exist - except hand in glove with state associations and organisations. I would hope that each state association would have a committee member who keeps in touch with the federal body and reports back to the association on issues of mutual interest.



Maybe it would be a good time of year to get in touch with all the societies and clubs to get them to nominate a member for representation seeing as though July is the usual month for those Annual General Meetings?

Cheers
Shaun.


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## The Reptile Outlet (Jul 1, 2014)

I've just read through all this and I'm excited to see the new lot of enthusiasm for this endeavour. As always, even though I no longer publish a magazine, you can count on my help in any way that I can.
Cheers,
Joy


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## Ramsayi (Jul 1, 2014)

ShaunMorelia said:


> Maybe it would be a good time of year to get in touch with all the societies and clubs to get them to nominate a member for representation seeing as though July is the usual month for those Annual General Meetings?
> 
> Cheers
> Shaun.




This I think is by far and away the best way to try and kick things off.Having elected representatives coming from the various herp societies around the country would start things off on the right foot.


Get a charter written up,kick it around all the societies and see if it creates a ground swell.


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## jacorin (Jul 9, 2014)

<<<<, is now the El Presidente of SOFAR....... how I got dirked,I don't know...... but if you want anything told to the members,shoot me a line


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## Bushfire (Jan 12, 2015)

Is work still happening or has efforts being abandoned.


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