# X GTPs



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

There is a new ad on Hreptrader for GTPs, which states that the male is a pure Ausie (which it is ... and a nice one!) and the female is from Hemens' line. This female is most certainly not a native. Since Hemens' latest lines are all native, it may give the impression (to the inexperienced) that the progeny are native. Perhaps the seller has no misleading intentions in this case (in which case I apologise) but it would be ethical and appropriate to spell out the full truth - "these juveniles are cross between Ausie native and non-native parents".
IMO it's a pity that some people choose to bastardise our Ausie native wildlife heritage.
Yes, I do have an invested interest in pure Ausie bloodlines and I am not ashamed of it.


----------



## chrisso81 (Nov 7, 2008)

Who cares? I'm sure anyone with the money and knowledge to contemplate a purchase would have sussed it out?


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 7, 2008)

Hey mate,

I know the breeder personally and have spoken with him several times over the last few years about his Greens and he has made absolutely no secret about the origins of his animals. I think he makes it quite clear that the female isn't native by the way that he makes a point about the male being native. Regardless of what line Adrian is breeding now, the female was still bred by him so is still an honest "Hemens" line Green.

Also, I think anyone with half a clue about Greens will be able to spot that the female isn't native in a heart beat. I've never owned them in my life but when he sent me photos a few weeks ago I picked up immediately that the male was native and that the female wasn't.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Jonno, there are still many people who wouldn't pick the difference.
Adrian Hemens have been acused in the past for selling supposedly native hatchlings which were in fact mixed lines. He told all the buyers that was the case but someone later on founded handy to pass them on as pure natives. The blaim fel on Adrian. It would be very simple and right thing to do if you friend selled it out.
What about the ethics of it? Do you think your friend has done a wonderful thing for the reptile keeping hobby by crossing the two?
Who cares chrisso81? Many of us do.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

the debate begins again.


----------



## Sturdy (Nov 7, 2008)

*bangs head on table*

not again.


----------



## Scleropages (Nov 7, 2008)

craftsman said:


> There is a new ad on Hreptrader for GTPs, which states that the male is a pure Ausie (which it is ... and a nice one!) and the female is from Hemens' line. This female is most certainly not a native. Since Hemens' latest lines are all native, it may give the impression (to the inexperienced) that the progeny are native. Perhaps the seller has no misleading intentions in this case (in which case I apologise) but it would be ethical and appropriate to spell out the full truth - "these juveniles are cross between Ausie native and non-native parents".
> IMO it's a pity that some people choose to bastardise our Ausie native wildlife heritage.
> Yes, I do have an invested interest in pure Ausie bloodlines and I am not ashamed of it.


 

Are you the GTP police?
The add dosen't say they are both native GTPs , Maybe take it up with the guy selling the pythons instead of trying to turn people off his animals by using this forum.

I am sure the people who want "pure" ozzy GTPs wont touch them.And the people who want crosses will.


----------



## wokka (Nov 7, 2008)

Trousa_Snake said:


> Are you the GTP police?
> The add dosen't say they are both native GTPs , Maybe take it up with the guy selling the pythons instead of trying to turn people off his animals by using this forum.
> 
> I am sure the people who want "pure" ozzy GTPs wont touch them.And the people who want crosses will.



I think Micheal would be flattered at the title of "the AUSSIE GTP Police." He has worked hard and incurred considerable cost to clarify and maintain the reputation of Australian GTPs. I have no problem with crossing lines of GTPs as thats where 90+% of those in Aus came from but it does seem a shame to "waste" an pure Aussie male when their numbers are still a little thin on the ground.


----------



## cris (Nov 7, 2008)

I saw the ad it seemed quite clear to me that they would be hybrids, otherwise they would say the offspring are native wouldnt they?


----------



## sigridshurte (Nov 7, 2008)

hybrids ? pfft they are all green tree pythons how does that make them hybrids


----------



## NCHERPS (Nov 7, 2008)

Just how many people have breedable true Aussie GTP's??

Obviously Hemens had non native gtp's and would happily breed them and sell the offspring as what they are for years. Just because now he is lucky enough(along with you) to have Aussies doesn't mean that people are being deceived when ad advert comes up like the one currently on HT.
Like Jonno has already stated people in the market for these animals will do there research before buying, but I understood exactly what he was saying in the ad, the male was Aussie the female wasn't!

Like has been said already, 90%+ of GTP's here are non native of mixed geographical region and that is a fact that isn't going to change anytime soon.

I think you(Craftsman) have made it obvious that you consider the Aussie GTP's better than the other 90%+ of foreign, but I think you are taking it a bit far when posting threads like this one making out that the advertiser on HT is misleading people.


----------



## the.badger (Nov 7, 2008)

It wouldn't hurt to really spell it out in laymans terms in the ad, but I don't think any inexperienced keepers will be forking out for a GTP, so I don't think it's a major issue in that sense.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

I am little bit sick of being accused of putting native GTPs above the others. Those of you who "assume" so, obviously don't know me and know nothing about my interests, views and goals.

I can't wait to get a few non-natives, I think they (or at least some) are terrific and see nothing wrong with cross breeding them because nobody knows where they came from in the first place. When it comes to natives, they don't lend themselves to designer morphs experimentation because they are not very variable. As I see it, they stand on their own and I would like to see them in people's collections as pure Ausie native GTPs. I can't and I am not trying to "police" what others do with their snakes but it hurts me to see such a blunder. As far as I am concerned, these X progeny has little future and will eventually get lost amongst the rest of the "unknowns". Is that a smart breeding?
I am not discouraging anyone from buying these or any other GTPs but *I am* trying to influence keepers / breeders to consider the ethicks of what they are doing and I am unashamedly trying to set standards when it comes to pure Ausie bloodlines.

So, to make it crystal clear, the ad doesn't bother me as much as the goods advertised.


----------



## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 7, 2008)

Funny that only in Australia reptile breeders get superstar status for breeding reptiles. The fact is that few breeders can say exactly where their original lines came from. We believe these superstars because they say so. I would still love to see the paperwork of any legally acquired wild green along with locality collection data and photos of exactly where the animal was caught. There must be a signature of the relevant person(in charge of these prermits) at the time when this capture was allowed. Surely there must be a paper trail somewhere? If someone have posted documents in past threads then I apologise. This goes for most of the carpet python locales too. I have seen many supposed Aussie green young in recent years that was sold as such that do not match any of the pictures of these animals taken in the wild. They seem to have a lot less vertebral speckling, at least 80% less. I think people are being taken for a ride. But that is just my opinion.


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 7, 2008)

craftsman said:


> IMO it's a pity that some people choose to *bastardise* our Ausie native wildlife heritage.


 


craftsman said:


> I can't wait to get a few non-natives, I think they (or at least some) are terrific and see nothing wrong with *cross breeding* them because nobody knows where they came from in the first place.


 
???


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 7, 2008)

Hi Craftsman

I'm terribly sorry to have offended your ethical sensibilities with my advertisement. I thought I was making myself perfectly clear in the ad that there was a clear distinction between the origins of the mother and the father. Your current partner in GTP breeding sold me the mother directly and swore black and blue that it was an Aussie GTP. I knew better at the time and I'm not about to pretend its a pure Aussie now either. I've also made it perfectly clear to the number of people who've inquired about my ad and bought babies that the father is an Aussie and the mother is not (she's just a good-looking southern GTP).

Warren, sorry you think I 'wasted' the boy, but you'll be pleased to know that male snakes can successfully reproduce with more than one female in a season 

Thanks to all those who offered words of support and thanks to those who've been buying my GTPs!

Regards,
Matt


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Cordylus, since you are so keep to see the trial or documentation pertaiining to native GTPs, why don't you ask all the owners on the non-native GTPs to produce their trails and documents. You would get shot down in flames!

You have obviously no experience with native GTPs, nor you have read much of literature re- the reduced vertebral markings. PLEASE do not make sily suggestions that "people are being taken for a ride". Your comments won't be taken seriously by those who know better.

Reptilian, do you have a problem with what I said? Please read my post again, it'll come to you.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Mods, woulds you please step in? 
Naming people in this forum? I thought there were some rules on this.


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 7, 2008)

craftsman said:


> Mods, woulds you please step in?
> Naming people in this forum? I thought there were some rules on this.



Sorry, didn't know we had to be anonymous. I spose it helps when you're taking digs at people 
Regards,
Matt


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 7, 2008)

There ya go, I've edited the post and people can join the dots themselves.


----------



## Ramsayi (Nov 7, 2008)

Can anyone explain to me how a breeder selling gtp hatchies can guarantee that theirs are 100% aussie?

Congrats on your greens Matt,good stuff.


----------



## Reptilian (Nov 7, 2008)

craftsman, I merely did not understand what you were trying to say in the respect of one minute you said that IYO its a pity that people "bastardise" our aussie GTP's... Now I understood that to be meaning x breeding or whatever...

Yet the next time your are saying that you dont have a problem with people doing it...

This is merely why i did not comment but instead put ???


----------



## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 7, 2008)

I have enough experience. But your animals are worth double of what any other green is worth, that why you should be able to show people their collection data and collection permits. They were never around about 5 years ago.In regards to the reduced vertebral lines, I have heard many stories. And stories they all are indeed. The vertebral line is a genetic trait of this locality. It has nothing to do with the amount of UV light they get, or that their diet is not the same or any of the other rubbish that people get told. Meraukes have the solid vertebral stripe as soon as they complete the ontogenic change. It should thus happen with pure aussie greens as well.
If I am wrong then please give me the links to where the data is pertaining to their vertebral striping or any concrete scientific evidence. I am never too old to learn new things. I can also say sorry if I was wrong.
Regards


----------



## Retic (Nov 7, 2008)

I really can't see a problem with the advert, it seemed very clear to me. VERY few people know where their Greens came from originally and it is of course not possible to 100% guarantee them as Australian.


----------



## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 7, 2008)

But surely there must be just one bit of paperwork to show that the animals were collected legally? They came out of nowhere. Five years ago there was not even rumours about true aussie greens in captivity. Breeders were struggling to produce their exotic lines consistently. Sure they have not been hidden for fifteen years so they could just suddenly pop up at astranomical prices? Pardon my sceptisism but there are just so many variables in this regard.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 7, 2008)

Cordylus,

I'm not sure who you were talking to, but there were several pure Aussie Greens in captivity 5 years ago. Just because you didn't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist...they weren't exactly animals people were boasting about. 

craftsman (I think) has mentioned earlier that there were no less than 5 collection permits issued for Greens by QPWS. Of course there is also going to be progeny floating around from illegally poached animals, as there is for EVERY species of reptile in captivity. 

At the end of the day, like every other locality based argument, there is no way of PROVING that the animals are Aussie - you rely on a mixture of trust, knowledge and hope.


----------



## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 7, 2008)

Thanks for clearing that up Jonno.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Reptilian said:


> craftsman, I merely did not understand what you were trying to say in the respect of one minute you said that IYO its a pity that people "bastardise" our aussie GTP's... Now I understood that to be meaning x breeding or whatever...
> 
> Yet the next time your are saying that you dont have a problem with people doing it...
> 
> This is merely why i did not comment but instead put ???




Please read what I said. I try again: I am not against crossing non-native GTPs with other non-native GTPs because they have cross bred in everywhichway in the past anyway.
I oppose to crossing natives with non-natives.


----------



## cris (Nov 7, 2008)

He has put a male over an exotic, the offspring are obviously going into the mixed/hybrid gtp category, like all hybrids if they are above board it isnt a problem, well untill someone wants to pass one of these cheaper snakes as an Aussie (some will no doubt look the same). Its back to the old hybridisation arguement.

Each to their own, but i reckon whinging on a forum wont change much.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> I have enough experience. But your animals are worth double of what any other green is worth, that why you should be able to show people their collection data and collection permits. They were never around about 5 years ago.In regards to the reduced vertebral lines, I have heard many stories. And stories they all are indeed. The vertebral line is a genetic trait of this locality. It has nothing to do with the amount of UV light they get, or that their diet is not the same or any of the other rubbish that people get told. Meraukes have the solid vertebral stripe as soon as they complete the ontogenic change. It should thus happen with pure aussie greens as well.
> If I am wrong then please give me the links to where the data is pertaining to their vertebral striping or any concrete scientific evidence. I am never too old to learn new things. I can also say sorry if I was wrong.
> Regards



My snakes are not double the price of others. They may be double than of some. If you had plenty of experience with native GTPs, perhaps you could tell us where yours came from. :shock:
Sorry mate, no offence but your "assumption" re-vertebral markings is incorrect. You shouldn't extrapolate from unrelated examples.


----------



## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 7, 2008)

New guinea of course, where all aussie greens originate from.


----------



## solar 17 (Nov 7, 2008)

*Gtp's*

Cordylus...now l am curious you said prior that people should be able to show paper work trails [names, documentation etc.] could you show the forum [aps] the proof that [all] native gtp's originated in PNG l for one would be very interested in seeing this proof of your statement , personally l believe [jonno from erd] got lt right on post number [28] of this thread and l dare say anyone prepared to pay the extra [for natives] would surely satisfy their own curiosty about the authenticity before handing over their hard earned.....have a lovely day troops ...solar 17 [baden]


----------



## CodeRed (Nov 7, 2008)

Another amusing GTP thread  
This sort of bitchy behavior is a great way to turn people off buying greens.


----------



## Colin (Nov 7, 2008)

Congratulations on your GTP's Matt. awesome stuff


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> New guinea of course, where all aussie greens originate from.



That's veird statement - ausie GTPs originated from Cape York, non-native GTPs originated from PNG and Indonesia - correct?
So, the ones you have got, where did they or their parents or grandparents came from? Did they swim over from PNG and someone found them on Cooktown beach?
There is only one way they could have come into this country and into someone's private collection ....
So what is the difference between those snakes being legalised through the amnesty or those natives legalised by the same process? I trust that your snakes are registered as australian natives - or do you have them registered as exotics?
You have been shooting yourself in the foot in every post here - show us the trail of paperwork that you are demanding from native GTPs owners.


----------



## URS (Nov 7, 2008)

Colin said:


> Congratulations on your GTP's Matt. awesome stuff



Yes well done Matt you have put a lot of work into your GTP's and you definitely deserve the end results with the hatchling you have. 
Good Job

Regards Tim


----------



## Retic (Nov 7, 2008)

I think it may have been in reference to Aussie Greens arriving here from New Guinea across the land bridge 8000 or so years ago.


----------



## CarpetPythons.com.au (Nov 7, 2008)

Of course. Why would I want anything Australian if it always ends up with dribble like this. Now quickly run and tell the authorities that there are new guinea animals in Australian collections. They are just plain boring and over rated in comparison to the other exotics in my collection.


----------



## funcouple (Nov 7, 2008)

correct me if im wrong please. but wasnt there dna testing done on so called australian native gtp and the new guinea gtp and the same dna traces were found in both? so dose this mean that the new guinea species swam here or australia and new guinea were connected many years ago? i dont belive anyone can honestly say what is a pure australian native gtp. i think most honestly believe that what they own is an australian native.


----------



## Southside Morelia (Nov 7, 2008)

deleted comment


----------



## Retic (Nov 7, 2008)

As I said in post 40 Australia and New Guinea were connected by a land bridge as recently as 8000 or so years ago. 



funcouple said:


> correct me if im wrong please. but wasnt there dna testing done on so called australian native gtp and the new guinea gtp and the same dna traces were found in both? so dose this mean that the new guinea species swam here or australia and new guinea were connected many years ago? i dont belive anyone can honestly say what is a pure australian native gtp. i think most honestly believe that what they own is an australian native.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Cordylus said:


> Of course. Why would I want anything Australian if it always ends up with dribble like this. Now quickly run and tell the authorities that there are new guinea animals in Australian collections. They are just plain boring and over rated in comparison to the other exotics in my collection.



No such intentions mate, I can assure you. You are the one prodding native GTP owners to produce evidence. When I put you in the spot, you came up with this. Enjoy your exotic collection and I will enjoy my - no more prodding eh?


----------



## andyh (Nov 7, 2008)

Well done with the hatchies Matt, they`re stunners in my book, maybe next time just advertise them as ordinary everyday greens like everyone else, those in the know will know!!

Once again, well done, just wish I could afford em I would definately buy from you.


----------



## andyh (Nov 7, 2008)

One more thing,

Aussie GTP`s have been in collections legally for around 20 years that I know of personally, its just taken this long for them to be available in sufficent numbers to be offered to the general public


----------



## levis04 (Nov 7, 2008)

Well done matt, nice job!


----------



## zobo (Nov 7, 2008)

LOL.
people are funny, since when does breding a GTP with a GTP = hybrid?
Besides that, who can actualy PROVE 100% that the animals they have are Aussie/foreign?
and another point is that most of the 'foreign' lines are of mixed heritage (locale) anyway but everyone is not jumping on that wagon and calling all foreign lines hybrids.


----------



## fishead (Nov 7, 2008)

Hey guys, I can't see anything misleading in Matt's ad. All of the info is there.
I haven't had dealings with Matt but after seven years studying this game you get to know who's got the good stuff and who's a straight up guy. I know Matt's got amazing animals and I know from talking to people who have dealt with Matt that he is one of the good guys. 
Same thing with Nick by the way.
Anyway, my view on the outcrossing thing is that locality is all crap unless you have documented proof. If your total breeding stock are progeny of the few legally collected animals you should be able to prove that. It's not a long line back. There would have to be illegally collected Aussie lines out there. They are no less pure but surely there's no moral difference between those and obvious png lines. Plus you're relying on some guy telling you what they are as opposed to being able to trace back a documented line. On that subject if craftsman's chondro partner sold Matt his pictured mother animal as a 100% Australian then something is definitely wrong there.


----------



## pepper (Nov 7, 2008)

I don't see any problem with the add as when I read it I knew it was saying that the mother was an imported line. 

If the imported lines are cheaper or undesireable ( therefore should be cheaper) I don't think it's fair for gtp breeders not to state where the lines have come from. If all Australian line is the desireable for breeders how do you expect new breeders to keep to this if the information is not available to the general public and only to those in the know!!!

These problems are because reptiles don;t have pedigrees as I have said before I don't see why they don't. I think it should be done that way you would know where your animals lines were from. I know this wouldn't solve everything but it certainly would stop someone selling an animal as a certain line when the pedigree says it's a different line.


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 7, 2008)

How come the imported lines are cheaper? Those snakes should be equivalent to the aussie snakes not cheaper, their location shouldn't mean their worth less. (if it were a human that would be horrific) Since all the green tree pythons originated from the same place it really shouldn't be this big of a deal to so call "mix" a green tree python, I can understand a jungle carpet and a green tree python, but seriously some people fret to much over mundane things. Your snakes are in captivity! if your country ensures habitats for native wildlife you should never have to release captives into the wild. This would mean that "mixing" your lines should not matter which seems to be the worries for people need to keep the lines pure! Since they are so expensive over there I would think no one in their right mind would release them so again no threat to the native wildlife. If your worried about keeping snakes pure they should have never been taken out of the wild in the first place.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 7, 2008)

Guys, I am going to take a long break from this forum. I realised that it's time to leave more room here for all those GTP experts, accountants and magicians. I will now join the smart people and watch this crap with a glass of scotch in my hand, have a lough now and then and enjoy doing what I like to do best.
Cheers


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 7, 2008)

scotch? vodka all the way!!!


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 7, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> How come the imported lines are cheaper? Those snakes should be equivalent to the aussie snakes not cheaper, their location shouldn't mean their worth less. (if it were a human that would be horrific) Since all the green tree pythons originated from the same place it really shouldn't be this big of a deal to so call "mix" a green tree python, I can understand a jungle carpet and a green tree python, but seriously some people fret to much over mundane things. Your snakes are in captivity! if your country ensures habitats for native wildlife you should never have to release captives into the wild. This would mean that "mixing" your lines should not matter which seems to be the worries for people need to keep the lines pure! Since they are so expensive over there I would think no one in their right mind would release them so again no threat to the native wildlife. If your worried about keeping snakes pure they should have never been taken out of the wild in the first place.



Nikay, 

Your statements are totally correct if based on someone who keeps a collection solely to see how pretty they can make their pet snakes. My collection serves several purposes, the least of which is having visually unique or appealing animals. I keep some pretty boring stuff, like 11 Eastern Brown Snakes and 13 Coastal Carpet Python and more Common Blue Tongues than you can poke a stick at. The reason for this is because I have an interest in _wild_ animals and my collection represents locality specific animals that allow me to go on a virtual herping trip around Australia every time I'm down there. I couldn't give a hoot if it has a pretty stripe or if it's hypomelanistic, but it'll be cast out of my collection in a heartbeat if it isn't locality pure.


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 7, 2008)

do youdo it for just snakes? what about dogs? or cats? If you own a rottweiler it didn't originate from australia. Or a quarter horse...etc not saying you do but animals from all around the world that didn't originate there are found there. For some reason that I don't understand some firm believers in locality don't hold this true to all animals especially mixed breeds. Are you a person who would base every animal on locality?


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 7, 2008)

Very, very well put Jonno.


----------



## junglepython2 (Nov 7, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> do youdo it for just snakes? what about dogs? or cats? If you own a rottweiler it didn't originate from australia. Or a quarter horse...etc not saying you do but animals from all around the world that didn't originate there are found there. For some reason that I don't understand some firm believers in locality don't hold this true to all animals especially mixed breeds. Are you a person who would base every animal on locality?


 

All those animals you mention are domestic, not wild at all and have no locality, I can't believe you are trying to compare the two.


----------



## krefft (Nov 7, 2008)

Matt I read your ad the day it went up and had no problem with it, or the breeding. Breeding GTP's is an achievment regardless of origin. At that price I'm sure you had plenty of takers.


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 7, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> do youdo it for just snakes? what about dogs? or cats? If you own a rottweiler it didn't originate from australia. Or a quarter horse...etc not saying you do but animals from all around the world that didn't originate there are found there. For some reason that I don't understand some firm believers in locality don't hold this true to all animals especially mixed breeds. Are you a person who would base every animal on locality?



Nobody is. Collecting snakes as a hobby is very different to having a pet dog or a horse. You can't compare them.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Nov 7, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> do youdo it for just snakes? what about dogs? or cats? If you own a rottweiler it didn't originate from australia. Or a quarter horse...etc not saying you do but animals from all around the world that didn't originate there are found there. For some reason that I don't understand some firm believers in locality don't hold this true to all animals especially mixed breeds. Are you a person who would base every animal on locality?



I don't have an interest in dogs, cats or horses. Well, I lie...I like shooting cats and we do own a horse. However, they are domesticated species and have little relevance in this discussion. Does it transfer over to our collection of fish and birds? Yes, it does.


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 7, 2008)

True but we are in the process of domesticating them in the first place. We are breeding them year after year generations after generations to live in close associations with humans. We can't necessarily tame them nor can we use them like a horse can but we are in a way domesticating them. All breeds originate from somewhere, the rottweiler in germany etc. one place thinks of a way to breed the animal to a way that is useful for us, snakes are to instinctual based and don't have enough intellegence to be able to train them to certain uses.


----------



## Vincent (Nov 7, 2008)

I've been watching this thread all day, and finding it very hard to stay out of it and mind my own buisness.....

But i have to say, I agree with Craftsman in this debate. Call me a romantic, but i believe in pure locale animals, and keeping them that way. Jonno's post describes it well.

And before everyone says "how can you 100% guarantee that your animals are what they are?", some of us do know for CERTAIN. 

I'm not judging Matt, because i know he's an honest, decent bloke. And everyone's got their own opinion and right to do what they like with their own animals. But in this case, i agree with Craftsman.


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 7, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> True but we are in the process of domesticating them in the first place. We are breeding them year after year generations after generations to live in close associations with humans. We can't necessarily tame them nor can we use them like a horse can but we are in a way domesticating them. All breeds originate from somewhere, the rottweiler in germany etc. one place thinks of a way to breed the animal to a way that is useful for us, snakes are to instinctual based and don't have enough intellegence to be able to train them to certain uses.



There's more to domesticating an animal then keeping them in captivity. A snake will never be truly domesticated. You need to look into terms properly befor emaking such posts. There is only something like 26 species of animal in the world that can be truly domesticated. This is because domestication relys on social skill similar to that which are displayed in humans. Dogs were probably the first to be domesticated, because they use pretty much the same signals we use, such as facial expressions and body language. 

Germany is a big area, so saying a rottweiler resides from germany says nothing. Germany is probably a bigger area then our iron ranges and PNG combined, so how does that come into the GTP debate. 

All breeds of dog have been domesticated for thousands of years and are far from anything resembling a wild animal. They still contain some basical instincts yes, but these still reside in modern dogs because they're built in instructions that are near impossible to simply breed out. 

I'm sorry to be blunt, but you have no arguement here. You may as well be comparing tuna with bears....


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 7, 2008)

Then what is the proper term for what we are doing for snakes if its not domestication is it imprisonment until death? Just point my blind self to what the proper term for what snakes are for us....


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

if ya want a gtp. buy a gtp. its that simple.
you guys use to be about the music man!


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 7, 2008)

they're just captive animals I guess..... 

If you're saying it's cruel how so? we give them ideal conditions, regular and consistent food, treatment for parasites, no storms, no predators.... Sounds pretty sweet to me. You have to consider that these are not social animals, nor are they the sort of animals that require a whole lot of stimulation and exercise. They're the sort of animals that are just there, and play their part in the environment. They have very limited learning and thought capacities.

Also, when it comes to handling, they don't like it, they tolerate it. It's something they adjust to through regular conditioning.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

disasterpiece7.0 said:


> there is only something like 26 species of animal in the world that can be truly domesticated. \



you are way wrong there. Its alot more than 26 species.


----------



## cris (Nov 7, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> Then what is the proper term for what we are doing for snakes if its not domestication is it imprisonment until death? Just point my blind self to what the proper term for what snakes are for us....



Captive specimens...


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 7, 2008)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> you are way wrong there. Its alot more than 26 species.



Wanna find me a list of these. This is what I've been told by a knowledgable and reliable source. You might be surprised. Certainly if I can see reliable resources I'm happy to accept it.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

here's the link for demesticated animals-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_animal


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

i counted over 90, and im pretty drunk. so there would be more.


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 7, 2008)

It's never cruel if not a human, If we kept a human in a small room that replicated an home envirnoment on a smaller scale.....Kind of like the truman show have you seen that (it has jim carrey in it)?? where they replicated a whole world for him and when he finally figured out that there was another world out there he walked out the door instead of staying in the safe environment. Really I don't actually think its cruel but the point is that as you have said before and we all know that they don't have the intellegence we do, if they were able to know do you think they would want to be free or stay safe in a cage?


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 7, 2008)

_Animals included in this list that *do not* fully meet this criterion are designated "__captive-bred" or semi-domesticated.

_I'm talking fully domesticated animals. That list contains animals bred and raised as food as well as animals used for research. I'd hardly call them domesticated.


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 7, 2008)

Nikay, how can you compare them to humans. I'm all for animal rights, I hate seeing animals suffer. But did you read my post? They're nothing like us. We don't just exist, we have complex thoughts, we have emotions. We're so different to a snake it's not even funny. You cannot compare a snake in captivity to a human being put in a room without contact to the outside world.

That's all I'm saying. Grr, I hate forums. I'm done with this futile arguement.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

domesticated is domesticateed if you want to ignore the facts and make ya own list thats fine but in the end they are domesticated.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

To be considered domesticated, a population of animals must have their behavior, life cycle, or physiology systemically altered as a result of being under human control for many generations. Animals included in this list that do not fully meet this criterion are designated "captive-bred" or semi-domesticated. The term domestic animal applies to domesticated animals that actually live in physical proximity to humans, such as pets and guard animals, or even food species kept very close, e.g. to live on domestic food scraps and/or so their body heat can be used as 'stable heating'.


----------



## cris (Nov 7, 2008)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> i counted over 90, and im pretty drunk. so there would be more.



or maybe only 45, haha but yeah there would be thousands of potentially domesticatble species, virtually every species of plant or animal can be domesticated. Domesticated does not equal cute fluffy loving pets, i think this may be the confusion.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

its all demesticated in the end.

there is way more than 26 species truly domesticated in your sense anyway.


----------



## cracksinthepitch (Nov 7, 2008)

In Kenya the local drug runners are walking around with Hyenas on leads now because Pitbulls werent tough enough:shock:


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 7, 2008)

Oh nevermind the point of a debate is to look from all perspectives, and I totally agree its not cruel etc and that yes domesticated animals can't compare to snakes.... but you didn't even know what to call our pet snakes to what they are.... Anyway Its more fun if you would say hey maybe that may be true but... Just look at the very bottom of the principles behind the way humans justify things....rottweilers originated from germany in the town of rottweil....


----------



## DanN (Nov 7, 2008)

Green pythons can be DNA tested (at least the females), and with a large enough data-set you can distinguish native snakes to those from PNG/Irian Jaya. Many (known) native green pythons that have been in captivity for a while do loose their vertebral stripe and thus tend to resemble 'exotics' - whether this is due to reduced UV, has, to my best knowledge, not be tested.

Some like to keep their animals pure, others don't care. At the end of the day it is the individuals decision. If someone is going to pay large amounts of money for an animal, I would have thought they had done a fair amount of homework on its origin. If not, then they probably don't mind where it is from.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 7, 2008)

never bring a knife to a gun fight disasterpiece7.0

cause the internet is a wonderful tool to research!

and if you pluck things out from no where they soon get stamped out.


----------



## Chrisreptile (Nov 7, 2008)

DanN said:


> Green pythons can be DNA tested (at least the females), and with a large enough data-set you can distinguish native snakes to those from PNG/Irian Jaya. Many (known) native green pythons that have been in captivity for a while do loose their vertebral stripe and thus tend to resemble 'exotics' - whether this is due to reduced UV, has, to my best knowledge, not be tested.



Can this be tested through mitochondrial DNA?


----------



## DanN (Nov 8, 2008)

Yes. I would argue that 8/10 native greens can be picked from an exotic by visual means, however sight or DNA would have a hard time determining the origin of an Irian Jaya/Aussie hybrid.


----------



## junglepython2 (Nov 8, 2008)

DanN said:


> Green pythons can be DNA tested (at least the females), and with a large enough data-set you can distinguish native snakes to those from PNG/Irian Jaya. Many (known) native green pythons that have been in captivity for a while do loose their vertebral stripe and thus tend to resemble 'exotics' - whether this is due to reduced UV, has, to my best knowledge, not be tested.
> .


 
Any animal both male and female can be tested by m-DNA, however its only passed on from the maternal side so it doesn't prove an animal is a native, only that the mother was native.


----------



## DanN (Nov 8, 2008)

Correct, therefore you cannot know the origin of your males.


----------



## Vincent (Nov 8, 2008)

I've got nothing at all against people who have no care or consideration for locality reptiles, it's up to the individual. I've got some unknown locale animals myself. I can acknowledge that most people just want the 'best' looking snake they can get for their money, and i try and accomodate those people.

But in my opinion, nothing beats a good looking locality pure animal. As i've said before, it means nothing to most people, but to those of us that it does, it means almost everything, for reasons i cant explain. Pure romance in my case. But thats the way it is for me. And with the Chondros, I personally think the Aussie ones are the best looking by a country mile. Call me a patriot.


----------



## funcouple (Nov 8, 2008)

one could ask why do native gtp that have been in captivity for a while do loose their vertebral stripe?? is this caused by multi generations of inter- breeding siblings to parents and sibling to sibling?? the loss of this stripe could be the start of deformities


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 8, 2008)

For any one who wants to know this is what dictionary.com said for what domestication means:
1.to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses; tame.2.to tame (an animal), esp. by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal and usually creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild.3.to adapt (a plant) so as to be cultivated by and beneficial to human beings.4.to accustom to household life or affairs.5.to take (something foreign, unfamiliar, etc.) for one's own use or purposes; adopt.6.to make more ordinary, familiar, acceptable, or the like: _to domesticate radical ideas. _
doesn't mean just for research and food.....


----------



## junglepython2 (Nov 8, 2008)

DanN said:


> Correct, therefore you cannot know the origin of your males.


 

You cannot tell the origin of *any* of your animals (via m-DNA) not just the males, as the m-DNA is only passed from the maternal line, so you have no way of knowing if the father was native or not.


----------



## whiteyluvsrum (Nov 8, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> For any one who wants to know this is what dictionary.com said for what domestication means:
> 1.to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses; tame.2.to tame (an animal), esp. by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal and usually creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild.3.to adapt (a plant) so as to be cultivated by and beneficial to human beings.4.to accustom to household life or affairs.5.to take (something foreign, unfamiliar, etc.) for one's own use or purposes; adopt.6.to make more ordinary, familiar, acceptable, or the like: _to domesticate radical ideas. _
> doesn't mean just for research and food.....



still more than 26 species which was stated to be true otherwise proven furthermore, which i did.


----------



## funcouple (Nov 8, 2008)

nikay11 said:


> For any one who wants to know this is what dictionary.com said for what domestication means:
> 1.to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses; tame.2.to tame (an animal), esp. by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal and usually creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild.3.to adapt (a plant) so as to be cultivated by and beneficial to human beings.4.to accustom to household life or affairs.5.to take (something foreign, unfamiliar, etc.) for one's own use or purposes; adopt.6.to make more ordinary, familiar, acceptable, or the like: _to domesticate radical ideas. _
> doesn't mean just for research and food.....


 yes ok nikay, but dont really know what that has to do with being native or not. dna could prove the origin of any snake, but only if there was a dna sample of the claimed origin native australian gtp. without these samples this argument will just continue, as no one can truely prove their snake is a native


----------



## cris (Nov 8, 2008)

DanN said:


> Yes. I would argue that 8/10 native greens can be picked from an exotic by visual means, however sight or DNA would have a hard time determining the origin of an Irian Jaya/Aussie hybrid.



You could only really tell if you look at their entire genome couldnt you? say you get a 90% aussie 10% exotic it will look native and probably no one could tell, but its still likely to be carrying genes that dont exist in Aussie populations. At the end of the day it isnt really any worse than mixing localities of other species and that is extremely common. Differant ppl have differant ideas on how much hybridisation is ok, there is no way everyone will agree on where the line should be, so there is no point trying.


----------



## DanN (Nov 8, 2008)

I agree Shane. Although I don't keep reptiles, I would like to know where my animals came from. Some don't however and their entitled to that conviction. I also agree, there are green pythons and green pythons, but from the 1 or 2 natives and exotics I have seen, natives win over PNG/Irian Jayans hands down.

Junglepythyon - I apologise, I didn't know how well you knew the topic - you are right.


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 8, 2008)

sorry wasn't talking about the DNA that went back a ways just didn't have the time to post it.... Genetically if it can't be proven, anyway If I placed eggs of random green tree pythons into the native habitats of your aussie pythons are they then considered native? check out this definition of native and see what you think...
1.being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being: _one's native land. _2.belonging to a person by birth or to a thing by nature; inherent: _native ability; native grace. _3.belonging by birth to a people regarded as indigenous to a certain place, esp. a preliterate people: _Native guides accompanied the expedition through the rain forest. _4.of indigenous origin, growth, or production: _native pottery. _5.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the indigenous inhabitants of a place or country: _native customs; native dress. _6.born in a particular place or country: _a native New Yorker. _7.of or pertaining to a language acquired by a person before or to the exclusion of any other language: _Her native language is Greek. _8.pertaining to or characteristic of a person using his or her native language: _a native speaker of English; native command of a language_
There is more but anyway people can look up the rest themselves, alternative scenario if a breeding pair of "jayapura" locale green tree escapes and mate lay a clutch of eggs and they hatch what would you consider those babies to be. (look at the definition)(obviously the scenarios are far fetched but again look at the principles behind it)


----------



## DanN (Nov 8, 2008)

Cris - You are right. Get enough samples and figure out the genome for each individual and you get your answer, however nobody is going to do that. Maybe in the future with better tech? I also agree that there is no line. Some people strive to collect locality specific animals, however they never really know do they. If they are that pedantic about having to know, then they should, either keep no reptiles (for fear of keeping a possible hybrid), or obtain permits to collect their locality specifics from the wild themselves - simple.


----------



## cris (Nov 8, 2008)

Nikay, try definition 5, thats what we are talking about. Also please stop hijacking this thread with crap.


----------



## nikay11 (Nov 8, 2008)

yes sir


----------



## PhilK (Nov 8, 2008)

I know I am VERY late, but I don't want to trawl through the pages of this thread to find my answer. Sue me.

How can he have a non-native snake? Aren't they illegal?


----------



## disasterpiece7.0 (Nov 8, 2008)

PhilK said:


> I know I am VERY late, but I don't want to trawl through the pages of this thread to find my answer. Sue me.
> 
> How can he have a non-native snake? Aren't they illegal?



Alot of greens were brought over here for collectors before it was made illegal, if they were already here for long enough they were declared legal to keep and breed in captivity under the amnesty. The whole no importing law is to stop new diseases etc coming into the country, since some of these were already here and obviously healthy enough they got permission to stay.


----------



## zulu (Nov 8, 2008)

*re X*

Seen the advert that mathew Bonnett posted on another forum,he explained things well in his add,the female from Hemmens is attractive but obviously not a native.The market for GTPs is getting tight,theres too many breeders after the pie,hence the bitching,thats all it is :lol:


----------



## cockney red (Nov 8, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Nikay,
> 
> Your statements are totally correct if based on someone who keeps a collection solely to see how pretty they can make their pet snakes. My collection serves several purposes, the least of which is having visually unique or appealing animals. I keep some pretty boring stuff, like 11 Eastern Brown Snakes and 13 Coastal Carpet Python and more Common Blue Tongues than you can poke a stick at. The reason for this is because I have an interest in _wild_ animals and my collection represents locality specific animals that allow me to go on a virtual herping trip around Australia every time I'm down there. I couldn't give a hoot if it has a pretty stripe or if it's hypomelanistic, but it'll be cast out of my collection in a heartbeat if it isn't locality pure.


Quality post Jonno, one for the realists.


----------



## zulu (Nov 8, 2008)

*re X*

You dont know whether something is locality pure unless you actually collect it yourself,ive been told the gold stimmys are from NW NSW and are the same bloodline as the pair Brad Oliver had but i dont sell them as locality cause i didnt collect them so cant be sure.Same goes with all these gosford diamonds,RHD womas etc and obviously green tree pythons,load of codswollup this locality stuff ,most would struggle to get a locality garden skink.


----------



## junglepython2 (Nov 8, 2008)

zulu said:


> You dont know whether something is locality pure unless you actually collect it yourself,ive been told the gold stimmys are from NW NSW and are the same bloodline as the pair Brad Oliver had but i dont sell them as locality cause i didnt collect them so cant be sure.Same goes with all these gosford diamonds,RHD womas etc and obviously green tree pythons,load of codswollup this locality stuff ,most would struggle to get a locality garden skink.


 

I have locality garden skinks


----------



## cris (Nov 8, 2008)

zulu said:


> You dont know whether something is locality pure unless you actually collect it yourself



Thats a bit like saying you dont know Africa exists if you havnt seen it with your own eyes. Its all just a conspiracy there are no pure snakes at all, Africa doesnt exist either :lol: With many CB snakes i can see your point, but with wild caught stuff, why would they bother saying it came from somewhere it didnt? 

IMO there is more chance of catching a wild snake that has been relocated by humans, so you cant even guarantee locale purity if you catch them yourself (if you want to take it to stupid extremes).


----------



## fishead (Nov 8, 2008)

Howdy Shane, I fully understand your passion there mate. My comments were specifically concerning gtps and the hyp around the native label. As everyone who's done some homework knows there are non native gtp variants that are pretty well same same as ours. That in my view is what puts the question mark over any native claims without a traceable history.


----------



## zulu (Nov 8, 2008)

*re X*

Allot of the locality specific animals were bought from "Shonky Sharon" :lol:got to be right,youd pay twice the price.


----------



## zulu (Nov 8, 2008)

*re X*



fishead said:


> Howdy Shane, I fully understand your passion there mate. My comments were specifically concerning gtps and the hyp around the native label. As everyone who's done some homework knows there are non native gtp variants that are pretty well same same as ours. That in my view is what puts the question mark over any native claims without a traceable history.


Yeh thats how it goes fishy,most of the time its mine look a bit australian, i think they are,i think they are,theyll get double the price i know they are.


----------



## Lewy (Nov 8, 2008)

WOW this thread really hit a few sore spots heheheheheh


----------



## fishead (Nov 8, 2008)

Hahhaaa well put Zulu! :lol:


----------



## moosenoose (Nov 8, 2008)

Lewy said:


> WOW this thread really hit a few sore spots heheheheheh



....and bruised a few ego's


----------



## zulu (Nov 8, 2008)

*re X*



cris said:


> Thats a bit like saying you dont know Africa exists if you havnt seen it with your own eyes. Its all just a conspiracy there are no pure snakes at all, Africa doesnt exist either :lol: With many CB snakes i can see your point, but with wild caught stuff, why would they bother saying it came from somewhere it didnt?
> 
> IMO there is more chance of catching a wild snake that has been relocated by humans, so you cant even guarantee locale purity if you catch them yourself (if you want to take it to stupid extremes).


Cris,Africa dont exist,Sarah Palin said so and she knows. Mathew Bonnett at the end of the day will have hot looking GTPs and the competition annoys some,any excuse to bag what he has achieved,the future will be in quality colours and hes well on the way.


----------



## kcaj_123 (Nov 8, 2008)

zulu said:


> Cris,Africa dont exist,Sarah Palin said so and she knows.


 
Hehehe nice :lol:


----------



## indicus (Nov 9, 2008)

Sorry; couldn't help myself....
Most on this site; have heard my anti-hybrid rants;
so I'll try and not bore you further; in this thread.
I have to ask myself as to why we have the current problems; regarding our captive population of greens?
Is it not reasonable to assume that those responsible for past law and legislation; to take some of the credit?
Restrictive laws; for what real purpose?; have and had long denied; sufficient numbers;
of pure aussie animals to be legally collected for breeding purposes...
IMO; restrictive laws and backward thinking alone; have allowed a black market in these beautiful pythons to flourish;
for to long....it's been simply a case of to little, to late.
To sustain the industries overwhelming desire; and line ones pocket; animals were;
and have been sourced overseas; then on-sold in Australia for a tidy profit for all those involved.
It's sad to see; that these imported animals; or progeny of; now represent most of the numbers privately held within this country.
It's even sadder that those holding true Aussie greens are asking absolutely stupid prices for their progeny.
I will never condone anyone for making a living from their hard work and efforts....however
the current prices offered; reflect excessive greed; and nothing more...
It may be suggested that these breeders have a desire to recoup the stupid amounts they themselves;
have out laid for their animals....IMO; more fool you.
Remember; the sole reason some of these spent ridiculous amounts to begin with; was to make a lot money;
not because they are so concerned in the purity of Australian greens in captivity....what absolute rubbish!!!
Is it not be reasonable to suggest; that if one was so concerned about the purity of our Greens;
that they would offer them for realistic prices; similar to other lines offered for sale?...obliviously not. 
Until prices for true Australian Greens come down to a realistic amount; and more are bred in any number;
we will all have to enjoy the many stunning exotic forms (deemed Australian); that now make the basis of our captive green population.
One things for sure; greens; like all other reptiles; will decrease sufficiently in value; due to ever increasing numbers being bred; and the fact;
that we now live in a time where money is tight; and average person just doesn't have the available finances to spend on luxuries like they use to....


----------



## pythons73 (Nov 9, 2008)

Well Said.................


----------



## cris (Nov 9, 2008)

indicus said:


> Is it not be reasonable to suggest; that if one was so concerned about the purity of our Greens;
> that they would offer them for realistic prices; similar to other lines offered for sale?...obliviously not.



It does say something doesnt it... it really is a shame. It will be interesting to see if anyone has a valid comeback.


----------



## zulu (Nov 9, 2008)

*re X*

Its not the price thats a problem,if the price is too high they dont sell simple as that,just market forces,its the way Bonnett got slagged for breeding his,something crawled out from under a rock and grabbed him by the leg trying to pull him under,poor fella its a jungle out there :lol:


----------



## Colin (Nov 12, 2008)

zulu said:


> Seen the advert that mathew Bonnett posted on another forum,he explained things well in his add,the female from Hemmens is attractive but obviously not a native.The market for GTPs is getting tight,theres too many breeders after the pie,hence the bitching,thats all it is :lol:



Craftsman, you seem to be pushing the point that the GTP lines you have are pure australian. Someone mentioned to me that Adrian Hemmens is your GTP breeding partner, is that correct?

My question is this.. If the female GTP that produced these hatchling GTP's (on herptrader) was a non australian native.. and was sold to the advertiser by your parttner, personally I can't see your point for knocking your own business partners GTP lines :lol: ?? Is it some new marketing strategy to shoot yourself in the foot?

thats GOLD :lol:

when the "non native" female came from sources that now seem to be beating their chest about there "pure lines"  it really doesn't inspire much confidence in me to "trust" your current "sales spiels" on genetic purity and the GTP lines you offer, when on the face of this information above, it seems a case of "hypocracy at its worst" and "stupitity at its best" :lol: maybe I have misinterpreted this thread and information in it.. but would be interested in hearing some feedback.


----------



## craftsman (Nov 12, 2008)

You won't here another word from me on this forum. Too many idiots, knockers and experts.
Good bye.

Admins - you can cancel my membership now.


----------



## flavirufus (Nov 12, 2008)

craftsman said:


> Too many idiots, knockers and experts.




Thanks again to all those who've supported me on this thread and in private, and to those who just felt the need to point out the jealousy and hypocrisy of craftsmans statements. 

Getting caught up in this rubbish can certainly cause a person to start doubting whether keeping reptiles is worth the bitterness that some people throw at you, but the common sense shown by so many in this thread has made me feel a bit better!

Regards,
Matt


----------



## Retic (Nov 12, 2008)

You have to distance yourself from the knockers and backstabbers in this hobby, no doubt you will have more friends than detractors and that's all that matters in the end.


----------

