# Illegal Aussie Herps in Saudi Arabia



## n3xia (Dec 23, 2013)

Hi everyone,
I recently wrote to Wildlife Trade Compliance to alert them about this guy I found on Instagram. I actually found him because he liked a photo I'd uploaded of my snake. They reckon they can't do anything about it because the animals might be from populations that were established overseas before Australia got all strict on importing/exporting animals, or that he might have obtained them legally. I highly doubt that, since he keeps mentioning amounts in the hundreds and thousands, and the guy has openly admitted that "all my animals is illegal" (it appears this comment has been removed since I last looked at this page).


Here's the species I managed to spot:
Flatback turtle - _Natator depressus_
Green Tree Frog (referred to as 'dumpy tree frog') - _Litoria caerulea_
Carpet python - possibly _Morelia spilota cheynei_?
Cockatiel - _Nymphicus hallandicus_
Another photo of the cockatiel

I'm also concerned about the welfare of the animals as he seems to do a lot of live feeding, and I noticed visible 'tenting' (dehydration) in a non-Australian snake. Thoughts?


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## PythonLegs (Dec 23, 2013)

I think saudi authorities are about as concerned about aussie herps as australian authorities.


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## longqi (Dec 23, 2013)

Middle East is a huge clearing house for Asian and African animals
Get messages every week begging us to send them reptiles etc


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## treeofgreen (Dec 23, 2013)

PythonLegs said:


> I think saudi authorities are about as concerned about aussie herps as australian authorities.



+1

That coupled with the fact that Saudi is one of those countries where bribes are a daily occurance for the authorities. I think nothing at all will be done and this thread right here will be the most anyone would have discussed it 

Australia can't actually do anything about it at all anyway, its up the Saudis and i think they are too busy cutting the hands off thieves, decapitating crims and bashing women who kiss their partners :S


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## Senator358 (Dec 23, 2013)

Wow...someone has too much free time.


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## Umbral (Dec 23, 2013)

If we worried about what other countries were doing with animals we would all have depression. I'm not saying that it's not sad but realistically there is nothing we can do once they are over there. The best we can do is push for tighter security exiting Australia.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 23, 2013)

All of those species are bred in their thousands in dozens of countries worldwide. I doubt whether anyone smuggles normal Carpet Pythons of any phase, Green Tree frogs (called White's Tree Frogs in the US & elsewhere) and certainly not Cockatiels - they're as common as budgies overseas and have been in international aviculture almost since Australia was settled.

Jamie


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## andynic07 (Dec 23, 2013)

This is not something that I would chase up but in fairness to the OP I will bring up the point about Aussie cows in the Middle East and how much of a stink that has been made about them being treated cruelly. If the reptiles are in fact being treated badly then maybe someone should be doing something about it.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 23, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> This is not something that I would chase up but in fairness to the OP I will bring up the point about Aussie cows in the Middle East and how much of a stink that has been made about them being treated cruelly. If the reptiles are in fact being treated badly then maybe someone should be doing something about it.



Like the cattle problem, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Australia is not exporting reptiles to the middle east, so we have no say in how they are treated. The only way to prevent this barbaric behaviour towards OUR cattle, goats & sheep is to stop sending them to countries where this sort of brutality is cultural. No amount of assurances will convince me that cultural change has taken place. They've been treating these animals in this manner for centuries because they don't believe they are sentient beings.

I think we could benefit from focussing on the way many Australians keep and kill their rodents for snake food. I've seen unbelievable insensitivity and brutality directed towards rats in many Australian backyards.

Jamie


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## andynic07 (Dec 23, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Like the cattle problem, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Australia is not exporting reptiles to the middle east, so we have no say in how they are treated. The only way to prevent this barbaric behaviour towards OUR cattle, goats & sheep is to stop sending them to countries where this sort of brutality is cultural. No amount of assurances will convince me that cultural change has taken place. They've been treating these animals in this manner for centuries because they don't believe they are sentient beings.
> 
> I think we could benefit from focussing on the way many Australians keep and kill their rodents for snake food. I've seen unbelievable insensitivity and brutality directed towards rats in many Australian backyards.
> 
> Jamie


Yes there are many wrong in our own country including the way some pets are kept and dog fighting to name a couple but animal rights is a global problem and sometimes people will have more of an interest in specific problems that occur overseas and they are no more or less important than the ones in our own backyard to an animal lover. For me I like to concentrate on things that I can make a difference with and usually that is things within my country.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 23, 2013)

It's absolutely necessary to distinguish between animal "rights" and animal "welfare" in any discussion about these matters. They are very different, "welfare" should be a concern for all of us. Animal "rights" people very often masquerade as "welfare" people to push an idealogical barrow, and one which contains heaps of stuff reptile keepers won't like.

Jamie


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## andynic07 (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes they are sometimes confused and I have wrongly used the term rights instead of wellbeing.


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## n3xia (Dec 23, 2013)

treeofgreen said:


> its up the Saudis and i think they are too busy cutting the hands off thieves, decapitating crims and bashing women who kiss their partners :S


That's a pretty big and probably unfair generalisation. I'm aware that stuff goes on there, but I don't think an average Saudi would appreciate you describing them as such.



Senator358 said:


> Wow...someone has too much free time.


It's called caring about animal welfare - which any responsible pet owner would do.



Pythoninfinite said:


> All of those species are bred in their thousands in dozens of countries worldwide.


There's no point giving him the benefit of the doubt when he's already admitted all of his animals are illegal.



Umbral said:


> The best we can do is push for tighter security exiting Australia.


...which of course is what an investigation into this kind of activity could lead to.



Pythoninfinite said:


> They've been treating these animals in this manner for centuries because they don't believe they are sentient beings.


My colleague who lived in the Middle East for years said he noticed a cultural difference in the way animals are treated and regarded. This same man had uploaded a photo of a dead, semi-decomposed cat he found on the street, for example. Most Australians would just be grossed out by or feel sorry for the cat and keep walking.


> I think we could benefit from focussing on the way many Australians keep and kill their rodents for snake food. I've seen unbelievable insensitivity and brutality directed towards rats in many Australian backyards.


If I saw similar things happening in Australia, I'd happily report it also. Just because I've taken an interest in the Saudi guy doesn't mean I can't also pay attention to what's happening here.


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## Rlpreston (Dec 23, 2013)

While I applaud your motives I would have to agree with what others have said.

Even if he had commented that they are 'illegal', there is no proof of that and therefore no way for the authorities to act on it. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## n3xia (Dec 23, 2013)

Righto... I'm not sure why someone would openly state that all their animals are illegal if that wasn't the case though.


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## champagne (Dec 23, 2013)

n3xia said:


> Righto... I'm not sure why someone would openly state that all their animals are illegal if that wasn't the case though.



probably the same reason he was saying they cost him thousands..... just trying to big note himself


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## Senator358 (Dec 23, 2013)

n3xia said:


> It's called caring about animal welfare - which any responsible pet owner would do.



A responsible pet owner looks after their pets. Someone with too much free time cares what a single person is doing with their pets 10,000km away.

If you want to start a crusade on saving animals then maybe start at your local RSPCA or wildlife shelter. They are always looking for volunteers.


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## Rlpreston (Dec 23, 2013)

n3xia said:


> Righto... I'm not sure why someone would openly state that all their animals are illegal if that wasn't the case though.



I didn't say whether I thought it was true or not, I'm only saying that there is no proof. This is a fact regardless of whether he was telling the truth or not.


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## -Peter (Dec 23, 2013)

Apart from the turtle all the other animals are easily obtainable through normal pet channels overseas. Quoting of thousands of dollars means what, bought any top line snakes here in Aus?


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 24, 2013)

I am just gobsmacked by this thread. The OP asked for some advice and before you know it people are passing judgement and telling her what she should and should not be concerned about. I really must be a relic if that is considered appropriate. 

My wife and I sponsor a child in Ethiopia. This is something our children wanted to do and even though they are now both adults, we have maintained our sponsorship and are onto our second child. Does this mean I should be flamed because I have not directed this effort to our own nation?

As *Peter* stated, all bar the turtle can be legally acquired. The Flatback is categorised as “Data Deficient” by the IUCN and “Vulnerable” by our Commonwealth Government. More importantly, it is listed under CITES as Appendix I. So unless acquired with an appropriate licence for scientific or a few other exempt non-commercial reasons, which definitely excludes pets (= commercial), there is no way he should have one in his possession. If you find out which authority is responsible for enforcing CITES legislation then you may have a slim chance of them taking action. It is very much your decision and if you choose to pursue it I wish you every success. 

Good on you for caring.

Blue


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## Lawra (Dec 24, 2013)

[MENTION=12687]n3xia[/MENTION] are you talking about that Langawi dude? Can't remember correct spelling atm but I follow him on Instagram, he has a pretty epic collection.


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## n3xia (Dec 24, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I am just gobsmacked by this thread. The OP asked for some advice and before you know it people are passing judgement and telling *him*


Her* 
But thanks for the CITES suggestion, I will look into that.



Lawra said:


> [MENTION=12687]n3xia[/MENTION] are you talking about that Langawi dude? Can't remember correct spelling atm but I follow him on Instagram, he has a pretty epic collection.


No, I mean the Saudi guy I linked to in my OP... I think his username is Mr_mohannad.

To those still speculating about whether the animals were obtained legally or not, remember _he admitted they were all illegal_, and then removed evidence of the admission. And no, I don't see why anyone - even in Saudi Arabia - would lie about that.

If you translate the Arabic comments you will see the guy discussing prices and even past buyers giving updates on how their animal is going. His photos also indicate a high turnover of all manner of exotic and rare/endangered animals from all over the world and what appears to be a pet store in the background of some shots.


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## R.Pilgrim (Dec 24, 2013)

Hahaha I love how the answer to combating illegal trade and animal cruelty is to tighten export security. The only reason this crap exists is because there is an illegal black market fuelled by a high demand created by these restrictions. People involved in this activity only care about profit not animal welfare. If exports were legal the trade would be over taken by enthusiasts who care about these animals wanting to expand collections over seas. which may actually have s positive consivational effect on some species.


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## n3xia (Dec 24, 2013)

R.Pilgrim said:


> Hahaha I love how the answer to combating illegal trade and animal cruelty is to tighten export security. The only reason this crap exists is because there is an illegal black market fuelled by a high demand created by these restrictions. People involved in this activity only care about profit not animal welfare. If exports were legal the trade would be over taken by enthusiasts who care about these animals wanting to expand collections over seas. which may actually have s positive consivational effect on some species.


Enthusiasts... in Saudi Arabia/the middle east? This guy is a self-proclaimed 'reptile lover' and look what he's done. We've already discussed the cultural differences with animal welfare in that part of the world, too. There's enough Australians who can play a part in conserving native species without risking them becoming an invasive species overseas.


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 24, 2013)

My apologies *n3xia*, I don’t tend to pay a lot of attention to the details in the heading, just what is written in each post and maybe the author. My oafish error. I assure you that your femineity remains unquestioned and 
unblemished.

Blue


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## Rlpreston (Dec 24, 2013)

n3xia said:


> Enthusiasts... in Saudi Arabia/the middle east? This guy is a self-proclaimed 'reptile lover' and look what he's done. We've already discussed the cultural differences with animal welfare in that part of the world, too. There's enough Australians who can play a part in conserving native species without risking them becoming an invasive species overseas.



I can see that you are very passionate about animal welfare issues, as am I and most users of this forum as I have seen it. You should be commended for that and if there is some kind of animal rights issue here then you should pursue action if you so wish.

I will add though, I am a human rights lover also. Your racist inference by that last post that there is no possibility that anyone from the Middle East/Saudia Arabia could care for animals/reptiles as an enthusiast does nothing to help your cause. 

Do you care about these particular animals so much, or just that an Arab person has them?


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## n3xia (Dec 24, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> My apologies *n3xia*, I don’t tend to pay a lot of attention to the details in the heading, just what is written in each post and maybe the author. My oafish error. I assure you that your femineity remains unquestioned and
> unblemished.


You could always use a gender-neutral term if you can't be bothered checking.



Rlpreston said:


> I can see that you are very passionate about animal welfare issues, as am I and most users of this forum as I have seen it. You should be commended for that and if there is some kind of animal rights issue here then you should pursue action if you so wish.


It's more animal *welfare*, but anyway...



> I will add though, I am a human rights lover also. Your racist inference by that last post that there is no possibility that anyone from the Middle East/Saudia Arabia could care for animals/reptiles as an enthusiast does nothing to help your cause.
> 
> Do you care about these particular animals so much, or just that an Arab person has them?


I think my reasons for reporting this issue have been made quite clear throughout this thread: illegal exporting/importing of Australian animals and the welfare of those animals.

My post was not to say there aren't any enthusiasts in SA, but that if this is the standard for a 'reptile lover' (out of all the comments I translated, not one person mentioned the welfare of the animals) then what could we expect from an 'enthusiast'?


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## treeofgreen (Dec 24, 2013)

n3xia said:


> That's a pretty big and probably unfair generalisation. I'm aware that stuff goes on there, but I don't think an average Saudi would appreciate you describing them as such.



It's their *law*. So completely fair since we are talking about the authorities who enforce such retarded laws.


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## Senator358 (Dec 24, 2013)

People kill elephants and giraffes in Africa...just saying.


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## marcus0002 (Dec 24, 2013)

Senator358 said:


> People kill elephants and giraffes in Africa...just saying.



A lot of a time especially with elephnats the one shot has become a danger to people, no different from shooting problem crocs here, main difference instead of the government paying someone to shoot it, someone pays the government to shoot it.

You can't just go there and shoot one willy nilly.


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## Trimeresurus (Dec 24, 2013)

marcus0002 said:


> A lot of a time especially with elephnats the one shot has become a danger to people, no different from shooting problem crocs here, main difference instead of the government paying someone to shoot it, someone pays the government to shoot it.
> 
> You can't just go there and shoot one willy nilly.



Illegal ivory trade?


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## thomasssss (Dec 24, 2013)

the only problem i can see here is that his got australian reptiles oveseas , they look like their cared for reasonably well and then theres the fact that he is still in touch with previous customers , doesnt sound like someone who doesnt care about their animals welfare 

this to me looks like a case of " i cant have your reptiles so why should they be allowed ours "


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 24, 2013)

n3xia said:


> You could always use a gender-neutral term if you can't be bothered checking.


There is a significant difference between an accidental oversight and “couldn’t be bothered”. I endeavoured to explain that I do not note gender as I read. The other half of the reason is that I made a mental note to put him/ her but was too focused on writing a response. I am an extremely slow two-finger sight typist. The keyboard is missing two keys and “o” in particular is omitted more often then not. The spacebar would be lucky work once ut of five times and so I often end up with a string of 20 or 30 characters that then has to deciphered into words. Lastly, I was under time pressure but thought it important enough to say something. 

Given your stated presumption, my short attempt at an apology clearly fell on deaf ears. Perhaps I should adopt that attitude in future?


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## Umbral (Dec 24, 2013)

It's ok Blue you can call me whatever you like, I don't see it as an insult to be called the opposite sex on a forum. Maybe I'm just funny but I don't see being called the wrong sex, black, white or any nationality as an issue. At the end of the day we are all the same


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 24, 2013)

The chances of Australian authorities investing time & money in an investigation like this, where there is no actual evidence of wrongdoing (he wasn't CAUGHT smuggling, or the chain of supply can't be followed) is nil. An admission from someone in a country with an historic resistance to outside interference doesn't count as actual evidence. The internet is FULL of people all over the world with Australian animals. By far the majority of them in the common pet trade have been captive bred and available for decades overseas. I would suggest that this guy just says whatever pops into his head at times like this.

Jamie


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## champagne (Dec 24, 2013)

n3xia said:


> You could always use a gender-neutral term if you can't be bothered checking.
> 
> It's more animal *welfare*, but anyway...
> 
> ...



You have too much time on your hands, are wasting the time of the already under funded government dept with bs reports and are just quiet rude in general. even after someone apologises for a simple mistake you still have a go at him. :facepalm:


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## Trimeresurus (Dec 24, 2013)

Yes, poor Blue was your only helping hand here to.


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## n3xia (Jan 2, 2014)

thomasssss said:


> the only problem i can see here is that his got australian reptiles oveseas , they look like their cared for reasonably well and then theres the fact that he is still in touch with previous customers , doesnt sound like someone who doesnt care about their animals welfare
> 
> this to me looks like a case of " i cant have your reptiles so why should they be allowed ours "


I don't want Middle Eastern reptiles... or any reptiles from overseas, for that matter. As I think I mentioned, I have concerns for the welfare of the animals based on photos he has posted. The 'customers' most likely have a similar level of concern for animal welfare as the seller, so their being in touch is a moot point, really.



Bluetongue1 said:


> There is a significant difference between an accidental oversight and “couldn’t be bothered”. I endeavoured to explain that I do not note gender as I read. The other half of the reason is that I made a mental note to put him/ her but was too focused on writing a response. I am an extremely slow two-finger sight typist. The keyboard is missing two keys and “o” in particular is omitted more often then not. The spacebar would be lucky work once ut of five times and so I often end up with a string of 20 or 30 characters that then has to deciphered into words. Lastly, I was under time pressure but thought it important enough to say something.
> 
> Given your stated presumption, my short attempt at an apology clearly fell on deaf ears. Perhaps I should adopt that attitude in future?


All I'm saying is you shouldn't assume anyone's gender. Your lengthy explanation was not necessary, and sounded more like excuses to me. It really ain't that hard to glance at a poster's gender before responding, and if you're gonna blame it on a faulty keyboard then you might be surprised to learn that a new one is a mere $20, or even cheaper/possibly free second hand.



Pythoninfinite said:


> The chances of Australian authorities investing time & money in an investigation like this, where there is no actual evidence of wrongdoing (he wasn't CAUGHT smuggling, or the chain of supply can't be followed) is nil. An admission from someone in a country with an historic resistance to outside interference doesn't count as actual evidence. The internet is FULL of people all over the world with Australian animals. By far the majority of them in the common pet trade have been captive bred and available for decades overseas. I would suggest that this guy just says whatever pops into his head at times like this.
> 
> Jamie


Yeah I realised before I reported it that them actually investigating it was a long shot, but if police can arrest people on Facebook statuses about illegal activity then surely his admission would count for some form of evidence. I don't think owning up to illegal activity is something that 'just pops into' an innocent person's head, either.



champagne said:


> You have too much time on your hands, are wasting the time of the already under funded government dept with bs reports and are just quiet rude in general. even after someone apologises for a simple mistake you still have a go at him. :facepalm:


I'm sure that Wildlife Trade Compliance is quite capable of effectively prioritising their resources, and I hope that they will do so. Also, I find it interesting that you call me rude, yet your account has been suspended and I'm still here. Hmmm. It it not at all rude, by the way, for me to politely correct someone when they refer to me 'him' instead of 'her', which is exactly what I did.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 2, 2014)

*n3xia*,
The reason I apologised is because that is part of my value system. That you responded to my apology with petulance, no doubt emanating from your presumption that I have deliberately been slothful and inconsiderate in using the wrong gender, I felt warranted a fuller explanation on my behalf. For you to again choose to ignore what I have told you and to single out one of many factors to criticise and portray as insubstantial, does not change the fact that the original mistake was an accidental oversight on my behalf and will always remain such. What it is altering is my perception of you as a person. 

By the way, if you can tell where I can get a $20 second-hand keyboard for my oldish model ASUS TeK laptop computer, it would be much appreciated. No longer having an income has its limitations.

Blue


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## Trimeresurus (Jan 2, 2014)

This thread:

- "Looks guys morals", people tell you you're an idiot, one person agrees with you, points you in the right direction, you are rude to them.

Point of this thread, to show how thick you are? I can't really work it out yet.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 2, 2014)

Look, the point is, nothing will be done about it. This thread shouldn't have gone beyond one page.

Jamie


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## Colin (Jan 3, 2014)

why did I even open this thread?? and now its given me a headache reading all this tripe..


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