# ls "cheap" cheap l don't think so



## solar 17 (May 2, 2011)

A lot of the time these days you will see reptiles and a lot of other "kept" animals being marketed as "cheap" for sale.
ln reality are these reptiles cheap?
let's take jungles or bredlis for instance and you buy an animal that is of low colour quality and that doesn't mean to say its not healthy or that you don't passionately care for that animal.
But after a couple of clutches and somewhere between 15-60 babies/hatchies that you now have and are hard to shift/sell and to be kept in premium conditions what with heating and feeding was that initial purchase such a bargain?
Because if you add those somewhere between $50-200 dollars to your original purchase[for a quality reptile] and divide it by you 15-60 offspring which you sell a lot easier as they themselves have great genetics.
To me the premium priced quality animal is not looking that exspensive any more and as a fair few seem to be doing these days is "selling up" you are still going to find it easier to off-load your "quality" animals.
Lets face it to keep reptiles in great condition isn't cheap anymore and l don't mind saying right here right now l am over excuses like l am a student or l had to buy a new phone or it cost too much imo you entered a contract, toughen up and see it through and keep those reptiles how they should be kept and once again l personally believe had you bought quality in the 1st. place it may well have been easier all around.....solar 17 [Baden]


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## mje772003 (May 2, 2011)

Baden, are you referring to the newsletter that snake ranch sent out?

Cheers Matt


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## solar 17 (May 2, 2011)

mje772003 said:


> Baden, are you referring to the newsletter that snake ranch sent out?
> 
> Cheers Matt


100% no ......solar 17 [Baden]


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (May 2, 2011)

You are sounding very philosophical lately Baden?


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## benjamind2010 (May 2, 2011)

Baden has absolutely NAILED it!

I've said this myself many times before, that if I was going to get something it had better be of exceptional quality, or I wouldn't bother at all. And now, this is my motto: 

If it hasn't got the honey it hasn't got my money.


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## slide (May 2, 2011)

too true Baden, its fine for those who just want one or two animals and appreciate them as a species in their living room- great they got a 'bargain' price for a run of the mill animal. 
But for those who want their animals to reproduce, what is the point in paying all those running costs to produce sub standard animals at a low selling price- after all the running costs (which could last 20 odd years) are exactly the same regardless of the purchase price of the animal. The other thing that I pesonally believe is that people should consider whether they are breeding to add something to the species/hobby or just to do it for the sake of it??? By the time the animal has reached maturity the total cost of purchasing and maintaining the animal will only be maginally different but the quality of offspring will be like chalk and cheese, as will the selling price(for those conserned with the returns)


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## wokka (May 2, 2011)

There are all sort of sectors in the market. Unfortunately more and more buyers seem to be only concerned about price but there are still poeple out there with ethics.
There is a cost required to cover the cost of ethical production. To sell product below that cost means corners are cut in the production process and it becomes unsustainable.
Over easter the media touched upon ethical chocalate. Would you rather pay the lowest price you can find or pay a fair price to allow everyone along the way to have a reasonable feed?


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## beeman (May 2, 2011)

Very well put Baden!
Its unfortunate that the new wave of keepers think that cheap is good, but as novices cheap can bring them undone quite quickly as they dont allow enough to keep the critter the way it should be kept!


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## fugawi (May 2, 2011)

Where is the relationship between price and quality? What is a sub standard animal, colour, markings, lineage? Sounding very elitist to me, only an expensive pet is a good pet?


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## wranga (May 2, 2011)

everything is about cheap now. we import automotive equipment from italy. we now have our customers compairing our machines against cheaper machines from china and other parts of asia. they may look similar, but the quality is very different. it seems tobe price in alot of cases that gets a sale now. sad but thats how it is..
so if its cheap dose that mean it wont be looked after properly? i think thats wrong to suggest that. some people wouldnt look after anything no matter how much they paid.


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## Emilie (May 2, 2011)

When ever I buy a PET, I look for qualities like temperament and yes, not a sky-high price. Off course, we may never have any offspring to sell off, thats NOT why I keep reptiles.


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## jham66 (May 2, 2011)

I'm a newbie breeder, this is the first clutch I have bred. I totally get where you are coming from. You hear of quite a few dodgy dealings of cheap snakes. Ones that as 2 month old hatchies are still being kept all together in the one container (how can you possibly tell each has fed three times??). Then the person will get them home and find that they have mites or other health issues. My first clutch have been kept in a hygienic environment and checked on nightly. I have full records of feeds in a field sheet that stays beside my hatchy rack. I regularly transfer from this field sheet to a file on the computer. I will then print this record off for each new owner. The computer file also includes a photo of each post feed lump and found shed. My snakes have been separated since they emerged from the egg. All this extra work means for each snake I can tell you exactly when they have shed and fed. I think this extra care should come at a (reasonable) cost. It should also be an assurance to the purchaser that all proper care has been taken.

Fugawi, you wouldn't want to pay a premium for a car that has mismatched/faded paint. You will pay extra for a car in the colour you want... a car with records of servicing is also worth more.... It isn't elitist just paying what it is worth. You see the same thing in all animals. An example of an animal conforming to the breed standard or having an unusual but appealing colour or trait will always (and should always) be more valuable. With snakes the difference between "cheap" and "expensive" can be $50-$100 for the regular varieties. If you add up the time taken to go the extra mile you would find that it comes at little financial reward per hour to the breeder.


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## ad (May 2, 2011)

hehe I had a guy wanting a Julatten, I still have one that I was keeping but I said, wait til it sheds, and I will send you pics,
He couldnt wait 2 days and bought one elsewhere, thing is....
This snake is one of the best Julattens you will lay eyes on, and he didnt even see it, he just wanted one so quick that he had to have it NOW. 
For a pet that lives for 20years, spend a bit of time finding a nice one  You will be happier in 3 years time.
Cheers
Adam


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## slide (May 2, 2011)

Feel free to call me elitist- I dont think that ugly or stupid people should breed either, but they do, you just cant stop them :lol: wait, maybe thats why I dont have kids??? Am I one of them??? :?


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## Benjamin_john (May 2, 2011)

I agree %100, but on the other hand I breed normal coastal carpets and always will, out of a clutch I will get %50 normal's with age become a beautiful black and white spotted pattern and %50 striped, I don't breed them for the money but I also won't sell them under a cut price or cheep banner. I think that coastal carpets are fantastic first snakes, if you are after a larger python, and there temperament and hardiness is second to none in the reptile world.


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## TeamCahill (May 2, 2011)

Fantastic thread - thankyou. For a 1st time breeder, I have to admit that we priced our beardies cheaply. But there were a number of factors taken in to consideration with this:

1. Did I mention the 1st time breeders? In fact we didn't even realise that we had a breeding pair until she was gravid last year. 
2. Our set up in comparison to jham66 - WOW!! Seriously, wow!! If we do continue this breeding thing in our family, I think the responsible thing will be to practice your technique. Yes, we had separated our hatchlings and juvies as they grew. I was also the one in the family ensuring that they all fed, habitat cleaned and each individually checked for marks, nibbles, etc, every day. But I never thought to put it into as much detail as you did. That sort of extra work deserves recognition. We didn't do that - ergo, cheaper price.
3. We live in an apartment, so we do not have the luxury of space for a few hatchlings. 

However, in all things considered, we still preferred our sales to be "on-sight" and have been lucky enough that every single sale has been a serious, devotee to the upkeep of the reptiles. Even a converted newbie - she made the extra effort pay us up front (including extra for maintenance), while she went away and applied for the licence, set up the habitat and researched how to care for them through the zoo and Herp Society.

Price shouldn't be a factor, but the reality of life is that cost is impossible to avoid. Seasons change as well - what was $80 last year can be found for $25 this year. The good news is that we as the vendors will always have the last say. If you don't feel comfortable with the price, or the transaction, don't.


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## Wild~Touch (May 2, 2011)

Does the breeders "_Solid reputation plus Expertise"_ have anything to do with the end price., 

eg. like knowing which animals to pair up for the best possible desired outcome. ???

Not just sticking a boy girl in together and hoping you get eggs that hatch

"Oils ain't Oils"


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## fugawi (May 2, 2011)

So on your logic, a GTP is worth $2500 because more work has gone into breeding it than a MD worth $100? Price is set by the market....NOT quality. I got a Central Beardie from Fay and Ray, for free, due to the fact it was missing a foot. Does that mean Fay and Ray are breeding "sub-standard" or unhealthy animals. Aside from the missing foot, he is healthy in every way, has great colour, feeds well (Too well), has a great personality and could have nice offspring. If I had have paid $500 for him would he have been better........NO.


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## Recharge (May 2, 2011)

you guys can complain all you like, but it won't help you, this is a free market at work, some want quality, some want cheap, and nothing you do or say will change their minds on what they want.

within a market, you have to compete, if things aren't working for you, either improve your model, or get out of the market, it's a s simple as that.
within Australia, the snake market is enclosed and has been small for many years, making it more viable until now, far more people are into snakes now, so the market diversifies, with more breeders and more market pressures.

so, it's not making you several thousand dollars a year any more? well, poo happens I'm afraid, you either adapt or move on, because this is how it is now.
as for "quality" and such.. well, thats all down to personal views, pattern, colour etc etc.. meh, if that phases people, good luck to them, but for most (at least until they're a few years into reptiles) who breeds what and such means nothing, they like what they like when they see it.


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## AirCooled (May 2, 2011)

I think the reptile industry is very hard to class.Any 1/2 smart teenager with little money can suddenly become a breeder to some.The housing & car industries relies on so many variables in pricing.From stock market to what the last 10 people paid for similar items,etc,but their is still a base for this pricing in most cases.
If there was some way to undisputedly classify,in this case snakes,this could a justification for pricing for all.Eg;Breed--Pet class,breeder class and high end class ranges.Then sub-classes from them,with the 101 differences,
We all trust that when we buy from breeders that we a getting quality reptile,but we take this on the word of, in most cases, virtual strangers.What 110% guarantee or assurance is there.Pricing on the individual reptile is only a percentage of the overall cost of the hobby,passion,lifestyle,etc. jham66 would obviously give you many reasons to buy from him,as would many other breeders.But how does the newbie(not referring myself) not buy from the wrong person or pay the wrong price?


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## Jason (May 2, 2011)

there is also many people commanding high prices for below average animals. some people dont view keeping herps as a business or production line that must be maintained with out loss. i honestly couldnt care if i sell things for less than what i paid or 'market value' or even cheaper than worse looking animals. cheap animals DO NOT always mean 'cheap' animals! It can and often does just mean the person selling the animal just doesn't need top dollar because thats not a concern to them. who cares if someone sells an animal with cheap on the end? really it seems like alot of the people that 'aren't in it for the money' seem very concerned about cheaper animals and a drop in prices... rather ironic.
simply put there are to many animals being produced each year and prices on the average normal stuff will continue to drop lower. If you aren't worried about the money side of things than price drops should hardly be discussed, unless a concern is to brake even in which case money is an agenda.


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## jham66 (May 2, 2011)

No, a GTP is worth more money because it is a more desirable snake. They are more difficult to keep and breed successfully as well. MD are very common and many people breed them, if you were to breed a MD with a new desirable colour or trait it would be more valuable because it would stand out from the crowd of "normals"........ as a pet it would make no difference.

TeamCahill, my set-up is nothing extraordinary, just 21 tubs on a couple of shelves with a heat cord, but I do take pride in my record keeping!

ShaunB, ask questions and do research..... When you go to pick up a snake there is nothing stopping you from walking away if something doesn't seem right. In any advertisement I place there is nothing really that sets me aside from other sellers, in fact many may do the same thing.....


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## fugawi (May 2, 2011)

Jags have the possibility of having neurological problems but still command a much higher price than a Coastal that, odds are, will be perfectly healthy, no matter the pattern or colour. Jags have a higher price but not necessarily higher health or quality. At the Easter show recently, I noticed a lot of people signing up for licenses. These people won't know or care if it has good colouration, breeding, lineage etc, they just want a cool pet at a cheap price. All you elite specialty breeders, what do you do with the other half (standard, boring colour) of your clutch? Euthanise them or sell them cheap to give you more room?


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## slide (May 2, 2011)

fugawi said:


> So on your logic, a GTP is worth $2500 because more work has gone into breeding it than a MD worth $100? Price is set by the market....NOT quality. I got a Central Beardie from Fay and Ray, for free, due to the fact it was missing a foot. Does that mean Fay and Ray are breeding "sub-standard" or unhealthy animals. Aside from the missing foot, he is healthy in every way, has great colour, feeds well (Too well), has a great personality and could have nice offspring. If I had have paid $500 for him would he have been better........NO.


 to take it back to Baden's original post he was comparing the cost Vs quality of animals of the same species and how the costs when spread out over the long term are nearly the same but you still end up with either a higher or lower quality looking animal (that Im sure will be loved equally). He was not comparing apples to oranges.

Great to see that the Beardie wasn't euthanised and found a loving home. But if you had paid $500 for him he wouldn't be any better or worse, you just would have been ripped.


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## fugawi (May 2, 2011)

RSPs originally were at $15000 a pair but with each breeding season, more became available, so therefore the price has come down. It would only take 1 GTP breeder to sell their clutches at $150 each to change the market. jham66... for $300 you could pick up a pair and breed them. Your overheads are $300 + your time. To break even you wouldn't need to charge $2500, you could probably charge around the same $150. The point is price = availability not quality. It is very hard to make a profit from breeding at the best of times, if this is the case you would have to sell a beardie for $1000. Unfortunately the $1000 beardie would be the same quality as the $50 one. The only difference is you won't sell any and the $50 ones will go like hotcakes.

Slide...my exact point.......Paying $500= being ripped off ......NOT better quality.


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## longqi (May 2, 2011)

I have been owned by more than a few snakes
Except for right at the start and a few rescues every single one has been chosen for temperament

Realistically how many people are going to become full time breeders
A few years ago it was very financially rewarding
But now the price of reptiles is more governed by the buyers
Only exceptional animals still command the figures of less than 5 years ago
So the majority of buyers now are looking for either a showpiece or a pet
[preferably both if they can find one]

An absolutely beautiful reptile that just wants to bite my face off is not of that much interest to me
I would much prefer one of any degree of ugliness that just curls up in my lap while Im having a beer

This is an aspect which is usually overlooked
But if we want a pet rather than a showpiece???

Otherwise we would all buy Jags???


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## wranga (May 2, 2011)

another thread hijacked by the jag bashers


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## fugawi (May 2, 2011)

I get the idea that the original post is saying, An MDs average price is $150, If I sell them at $300 then therefore mine are better than somebody selling them at $50. This assumes that an expensive price= high quality. I have seen "cheap" snakes of higher or equal quality as expensive snakes, the price does not necessarily equal the quality.


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## longqi (May 2, 2011)

Wranga
My post had absolutely zero do do with Jag bashing
Everyone with half a brain fully accepts that the best Jags look better than 99.9% of other various types of Carpets
That is the only reason I included them and if snakes were ONLY chosen for looks Jags would be on everyones wish list

Fugawi in his last post has a much better grip on the reality of the situation


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## wranga (May 2, 2011)

longqi
i didnt address my post to you personally, or anyone else


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (May 2, 2011)

I am glad that I make enclosures rather than breed snakes...there is a lot of competition out there and first timers can get straight in there and compete with the experienced breeders by using the information that the older crew have worked a long time to figure out. We only provide high end specialised enclosures that are difficult to make. I have worked long and hard to better our methods to make them as cost efficient as can be, making us very competitive. So I feel for those experienced breeders that need to justify why their animals are worth more than some overnight breeder. Problem is a lot of the customers are just as inexperienced and wouldn't recognise this.


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## AirCooled (May 2, 2011)

90% of the time,choice of breed/sub-breed is a personal thing,everyone has their own reasons for why one is better,.Pricing should be on realistic values not personal.I bought a $5,000 puppy for $3,000,I was happy to pay the 3 because of the saving and the proof of breeding.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (May 2, 2011)

longqi said:


> Wranga
> My post had absolutely zero do do with Jag bashing
> Everyone with half a brain fully accepts that the best Jags look better than 99.9% of other various types of Carpets
> That is the only reason I included them and if snakes were ONLY chosen for looks Jags would be on everyones wish list
> ...



and yes Jags are on my wish list but I will do more research first.


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## Chris1 (May 2, 2011)

well, what about those of us who were happy to pay top dollar for top animals, to later realise that the breeder knowingly offloaded crud?

i never went for 'cheap', ive tried offering more to get the better animals, just incase i decided to try breeding sometime int he future, and now have a house full of snakes that i wont sell since theyre pets, but none of which are worth the trouble of breeding.
(particularly peeved at the hypo bredli that were meant to be crackers and are totally classic,..., i guess that explains the not feeding them much before shipping so they dont start showing their crap colours till its too late)

its really off putting buying anything now since i know breeders keep the best for themselves and their mates and off load the rest to the whoevers like me!!


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## Red-Ink (May 2, 2011)

$50 specimen Vs $500 specimen..... quality = subjective.

Do I want to pay just the $50 well only a fool will say no, does the $50 dollar one have what I'm looking for "quality wise" probably not. If it did I scoop it up in a second as well as probably two or three more in that clutch.

Now the $500 specimen has what I'm looking for and fits the bill of what I consider to be a "quality" specimen (subjectively obcourse), am I a fool for paying that top dollar when the majority of people think that's an exorbedant price? Well I think not as I was obviously willing to pay for it and I will take the moral high ground of "it's mine not yours.. bugger what you think".

If somebody is willing to pay the price the breeder is asking whatever that price may be how are they getting ripped off? They agreed to that price. The only way it would be a rip is if you didn't get what you paid for i.e pay for a GTP and get sent a GTS, then it's a rip.

I have posted this before:
"_Quantity will drive the price down..._
_Quality will command a higher price..._"

Up to you what you consider quality whether your well informed about reptiles or not


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## cwtiger (May 2, 2011)

very interesting thread. I have also got my first clutch after looking after snakes for many years. I did not breed to make money nor for the sake of it. When my hatchlings hatched they were all seperated. Records of each shed time they fed pooped have been kept. I am selling them for a low price so that others can enjoy to say that my adults are not up to the standards nor the babies is beyond words. I paid high end for the adults when I purchased them. So just because someone is selling their hatchlings for a low price I don't think means that they are not looking after the hatchlings properly nor do I think it means that they are sick or covered in mites.


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## cougars (May 2, 2011)

Ive sold plenty of (cheap) hatchies this year,All healthy snakes and eating just fine.After every sale I have received positive feedback as to the look,condition and ease of handling.Most people are happy with a healthy snake true to its type without it having to be (special). All my reptiles are maintained in a clean healthy environment without any corners being cut and housed ethically.Ive lost some money but its only a hobby to me.The price of reptiles has come down and people have to adjust.Cheap is not always a bad thing.


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## D3pro (May 2, 2011)

This feels like a high school business class topic... "What effects a products price?"
Since were talking about money, here is a simple answer:

There are various factors that effect appropriate price for a product. Competition, product image, product quality, demand for the product, expenses and time put in for the products eventual sale, market condition and so on.
Apply that to reptile breeding, you will find weather it's worth it or not to turn it into a business.

I myself don't care about the money side, I just like the animals


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## slide (May 2, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Slide...my exact point.......Paying $500= being ripped off ......NOT better quality.


 
Paying $500 for a three footed beardie would be a rip, but with a whole lot of line breeding and a bit of luck you might be able to produce a two footed beardie- now that would be worth something. (tongue in cheek, not dissing on your beardie)


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## WAG_S (May 2, 2011)

i really think there are two types of people, people who breed the animals for profit, people who breed to improve the breed in itself. If you were pasionate about the animal money should not be a contributing factor in what you keep or what animal you buy. As long as the animal is kept humanly and and the owner appreciates the animal nothing else should matter.


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## patonthego (May 2, 2011)

WAG_S said:


> i really think there are two types of people, people who breed the animals for profit, people who breed to improve the breed in itself. If you were pasionate about the animal money should not be a contributing factor in what you keep or what animal you buy. As long as the animal is kept humanly and and the owner appreciates the animal nothing else should matter.



Very well said. I'd rather see a product of mine go to a good home. I bred Alaskan Malamutes which beat all the others being shown around Australia at the major Royals and they were sold for less than the going price because they showed them all over the states of Australia and I got credit for that. Pet quality pups went to pet owners only and they were never bred or shown. Not so easy to do this in the reptile world


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## longqi (May 2, 2011)

WAG_S said:


> i really think there are two types of people, people who breed the animals for profit, people who breed to improve the breed in itself. If you were pasionate about the animal money should not be a contributing factor in what you keep or what animal you buy. As long as the animal is kept humanly and and the owner appreciates the animal nothing else should matter.



I tend to believe that the majority of those 'who breed to improve the breed in itself' concentrate the most on money?
They find an attribute that they believe will be desirable in 5 or 10 years and aim directly at that target with the sole intention of increased profit, which is exactly how any profitable business should be run
Their biggest down fall is the internet
Because now anyone can get virtually any information about new techniques with the push of a button
This is probably the only industry that this happens in

The top breeders now will start to become a lot more 'secretive' about advances they are making if they have any sense
This is mainly because it simply takes so long to 'design' a new carpet or childrens or woma or whatever 
If I was going back into breeding I would be keeping very quiet until I dropped 100 yearlings on the market that just blew everyones minds and knowing that that niche market was solely mine alone for at least two years and my next projects were already well under way

This is now an industry rather than just a hobby
Industrial farming methods/protocols will start coming to the forefront more and more


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## Red-Ink (May 2, 2011)

longqi said:


> I tend to believe that the majority of those 'who breed to improve the breed in itself' concentrate the most on money?
> They find an attribute that they believe will be desirable in 5 or 10 years and aim directly at that target with the sole intention of increased profit, which is exactly how any profitable business should be run..........


 
Takes time and lots of money to develop and improve on something its called Research and Development (in any business)........
It could take up too six generations of breeding, that's a lot of feeding, keeping of holdbacks and overheads in the meantime before the new product hits the market.

Should we expect them to give the new improved line away for peanuts after years of hard work?


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## stockhorse (May 3, 2011)

Red Ink of course that should not be the case but because others have classics (non hypo,non reduced pattern,non albino etc) examples of the breed that are selling for cheaper market prices does that mean the snake is of lower quality?No it doesn't, it means that people are making choices as to what sort of example of snake they want and how much they are willing to pay for it.
The lastest trend of selling non feeding hatchies for reduced prices,is a prime example of what people want and what they are willing to pay.People buy non feeding hatchies because that is what they are willing to pay and think they can spend the time and effort in getting the hatchie feeding correctly.This market has always been there but it is only now being explored by breeders who consider their time and efforts best placed elsewhere. This does not make these lower quality animals but,considering a risk of not getting them feeding and dying(fairly low risk)the purchaser gets a "cheap" snake.Now this may only be "cheap" dollar wise but very expensive time and stress wise.This is where the market has arrived and will probably stay for a while.Look also at the "bulk" deals available, buy 10 hatchies for $80 each or singularly for $150 each. This is setting up a level of middle man that takes the risk of raising all 10 and making a profit from resale while gauranteeing the original breeder can move all his hatchies on with low feeding costs, time expended etc. By doing this will it help make breeding profitable? Who knows but the market, type of breeders, type of sellers and type of buyers is all changing presenting new opportunity to same and removing opportunity from others.
What a great time to be in the reptile world.


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## Snakeluvver2 (May 3, 2011)

> Because now anyone can get virtually any information about new techniques with the push of a button
> This is probably the only industry that this happens in


Wrong


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## fugawi (May 3, 2011)

To Slide.....front or back two?LOL


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## RHCP1 (May 3, 2011)

ShaunB said:


> 90% of the time,choice of breed/sub-breed is a personal thing,everyone has their own reasons for why one is better,.Pricing should be on realistic values not personal.I bought a $5,000 puppy for $3,000,I was happy to pay the 3 because of the saving and the proof of breeding.



Now that must be one hell of a dog. can you tell me what breed of pup would sell for 5000.


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## guzzo (May 3, 2011)

2 things come to mind. Quality is long remembered after price is forgotten and a cheap thing is not always good and a good thing is not always cheap!


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## cougars (May 3, 2011)

Well if people think cheap is no good,I for one will raise my prices so then you will be getting a better animal


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## longqi (May 7, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Takes time and lots of money to develop and improve on something its called Research and Development (in any business)........
> It could take up too six generations of breeding, that's a lot of feeding, keeping of holdbacks and overheads in the meantime before the new product hits the market.
> 
> Should we expect them to give the new improved line away for peanuts after years of hard work?



I agree completely with this with one small proviso
Top shelf will always remain top shelf until too many others also produce it
That is why I would never reveal a thing now until I knew I had a certain sector sewn up for XXX period of time

[psst wanna see my black mamba rattlesnake hybrids.... Im trying this so on a dark night you can hear them instead of just that big black gape coming at you]


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## Red-Ink (May 7, 2011)

longqi said:


> I agree completely with this with one small proviso
> Top shelf will always remain top shelf until too many others also produce it
> That is why I would never reveal a thing now until I knew I had a certain sector sewn up for XXX period of time
> 
> [psst wanna see my black mamba rattlesnake hybrids.... Im trying this so on a dark night you can hear them instead of just that big black gape coming at you]


 
Agreed.......

That's where branding (in this case reputation kicks in)..... Hundreds of manufacturers but the ones with the "quality" or the "original manufacturers" are the ones that are still sought after. Sure they will have to drop the "market" price due to the increase of competition but...... say with hundreds of TVs and numerous manufacturers on the market people will still pick the Sony over the Teac (and pay the higher price) though their both TVs


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## fugawi (May 7, 2011)

Ahh but us poor saps that don't have thousand dollar notes in our wallets are perfectly happy with our LGs etc.LOL


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## Red-Ink (May 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Ahh but us poor saps that don't have thousand dollar notes in our wallets are perfectly happy with our LGs etc.LOL



Still bought the LG over the cheaper Teac as that's what you (personally) considered the better quality.


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## dragonboy69 (May 7, 2011)

RHCP1 said:


> Now that must be one hell of a dog. can you tell me what breed of pup would sell for 5000.



obviouslly a pup from a champion bloodlines or a dog trained for various techniches ie attack trained obedience trained drug detection


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## fugawi (May 8, 2011)

Actually the LG was the cheapest at the time.


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## Radar (May 8, 2011)

cougars said:


> Well if people think cheap is no good,I for one will raise my prices so then you will be getting a better animal



I'll join you in that. I always wanted to get rich off selling levis you know...


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## stockhorse (May 8, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Agreed.......
> 
> That's where branding (in this case reputation kicks in)..... Hundreds of manufacturers but the ones with the "quality" or the "original manufacturers" are the ones that are still sought after.


 
This of course only applies for a very short time,that is until the buyer realises that they are paying for branding(in this case reputation)or for a product of equal quality at a lesser price.The breeder they buy from then gets the reputation and the cycle renews.
If that cycle does not renew it means the original manufacturer did not sell on snakes of the same quality as he keeps for himself, This also will quickly become apparent to the market and the reputation shall decline and other breeders, although the quality may be slightly lower(they will probably improve this with their own selections for breeding)will gain the reputation and then the cycle will renew. So the argument of price versus quality, while it is relevent with manufactured goods, is not really relevent when it comes to snakes ,lizards etc.


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## Red-Ink (May 8, 2011)

stockhorse said:


> This of course only applies for a very short time,that is until the buyer realises that they are paying for branding(in this case reputation)or for a product of equal quality at a lesser price.The breeder they buy from then gets the reputation and the cycle renews.
> If that cycle does not renew it means the original manufacturer did not sell on snakes of the same quality as he keeps for himself, This also will quickly become apparent to the market and the reputation shall decline and other breeders, although the quality may be slightly lower(they will probably improve this with their own selections for breeding)will gain the reputation and then the cycle will renew. So the argument of price versus quality, while it is relevent with manufactured goods, is not really relevent when it comes to snakes ,lizards etc.


 
Relevance as in once you sell or put a price on something it then becomes a product either manufactured or bred... product is valued through quality in corelation to desirabilty (not always as marketing hype can void that)

Edit * Apologies... the branding/use of manufactured goods in this case are intended as a simile and not an actual point of discussion... it prevents the use of actual breeders names for discussion or comparison.


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## WAG_S (May 23, 2011)

You really need to distinguish the difference between a hobby and a profitable buisness. A hobby in my view is enjoying the snake/reptile for what is is and not as a few dollars in your back pocket. A buisness is is something you do for profitable gain. Now im not saying that a breeder cant both enjoy there snakes as a hobby and to make money. But i dont think that people should breed a reptile unless you are contributing to the well being of the species. For all the back yard breeders out there that think that they will make a few bucks think twice, rememeber that all your animals will need homes and sometimes they will be hard to find. Much better off leaving breeding to people who are contributing to the species and not just flooding the market with anything and everything.


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## TeamCahill (Mar 21, 2012)

I realise that this thread is a little old, but considering that I have just posted our young beardies at a really cheap price, I thought it was worthwhile discussing again.

I have absolute admiration and respect for the serious breeders on here. I think the work you put in is amazing and deserves to be rewarded in any shape or form available. As "hobbyists" ourselves, I wish I had the committment you do - but the reality is that we don't. In particular, I like the comment by WAG_S above, who has pointed out that if you are NOT committed to the well-being of the species, then you should step back. Which is exactly what we are doing this year - our current babies are the last ones. We have taken the responsible decision NOT TO BREED anymore. 

It is a shame, as we have seen some very beautiful, very healthy and very smart lizards be given to some wonderful homes (we regularly receive photos from some of the buyers with updates). But we don't have the space, and with more of our own children coming - we don't have the time. 

There is no commercial income made from selling lizards in our current capacity - and we recognise that. It was never about making money. In fact, for us it was more about having lizards available in Metro-Sydney, rather than people having to travel to Wollongong, New Castle or far West Sydney. There are lots of people in Metro-Sydney interested, but limited availability. 

One thing that has surprised me is the number of people who have wanted lizards, but have not bought a terrarium or even applied for the licence BEFORE calling me. In those cases, I have strongly advised them to apply for the licence, set-up everything, read a few books, check out the expos AND THEN CALL ME. Again, vendors will always have the last say as to whether or not they sell their animals.

Thankyou again to the serious breeders - your updates show us "hobbyists" the best way to do things, if we want to progress further. Good luck with your endeavours.

Ann-Marie


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## CrystalMoon (Mar 21, 2012)

At this point in time I have bought good quality reptiles paying what I think is average price for their breed. I have chosen the more common breeds for a couple of reasons, I need experience and the more common varieties tend to be more forgiving  I do want to eventually breed, but as a possible one time experience a) so I can have the purely selfish satisfaction and joy seeing my Babies have Babies B) So I can help by donating the offspring to those who would like a first time hardy snake. I dont think "cheaper" necessarily means lesser in all cases however in a lot unfortunately I think it can.... The old adage"you get what you pay for" rings true in the majority of situations. To be completely honest, I will jump for a bargin along with the next person but not in regard to cars and animals(husbands I could be persuaded  ) Unless I know the breeder/vehicle. 99% of the time though I am happy to pay the price as I know how much goes into breeding quality animals(have bred dogs and horses)


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## ingie (Mar 21, 2012)

I pay whatever I have to to get the animals I want. Sometimes that may be expensive, sometimes I may get a bargain. I judge the animal by the condition it is in, the look that i desire, it's ability to feed, and the condition and longevity of its parents. These things may have nothing to do with the price. People who stinge on caring for their animals can also the kind of people striving to make the biggest profit. Price and quality are certainly not linked in my book. Judge every animal on it's own merrits.


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## Scleropages (Mar 21, 2012)

Cost has nothing to do with good or bad animals ,if people are not going to look after an animal it doesn't matter if it cost $50 or $500.. it's the keepers that's the prob.


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## Beard (Mar 21, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned but if someone only wants the snake as a pet and has no interest in breeding and selling then yea, cheap is cheap.


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## Ramsayi (Mar 21, 2012)

You only have to look at a lot of the threads on here.What type of snake is this? How can I get my new snake to eat? What temps do I need to keep it at? etc etc.

Too many people in the hobby now only look at price and nothing else.
They do not value the extra time,effort and expense some people put into line breeding to improve colour,pattern etc.
They do not place much value on getting a well established hatchy,as long as it has a feed or two it's all good. 
The do not value after sales help/advice if it is needed. 

The biggest concern with cheap animals is that they will become disposable.Much easier to buy a new one than pay a vet bill if a pet reptile becomes sick.


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## Beard (Mar 21, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> You only have to look at a lot of the threads on here.What type of snake is this? How can I get my new snake to eat? What temps do I need to keep it at? etc etc.
> 
> Too many people in the hobby now only look at price and nothing else.
> They do not value the extra time,effort and expense some people put into line breeding to improve colour,pattern etc.
> ...



Unfortunately you're all too right. But it is the same with all all other animals. Some people just see pets as a novelty that more often than not, wears off, to the detriment of the amimal.

Just look at any pet classifieds and see the enormous amount of free of cheap animals available. Then go to your local pound or RSPCA shelter.


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## ingie (Mar 21, 2012)

The point is though that people with crappy animals or bad/nill advise can and do still charge heaps for the animals they sell. You can't say someone selling a snake cheap means it is a crap snake, and selling an animal for an expensive price means it is a good animal. I know breeders that sell good quality animals with a lot of effort put in and ongoing help if required - for really good prices that wouldn't be classed as 'expensive' at all. And I have seen evidence of people who know next to nothing and don't care for their animals adequately, selling animals in poor condition for top dollar.

Also - just because an animal has been kept poorly and there is no good advice and help, don't assume it is a 'crappy animal'. You could have a total idiot get an absolute bargain for a breeding pair of animals, neglect them, breed them, put no time into the babies and then sell them dirt cheap to get rid of them, or top dollar to make a quick buck - and they are still top quality animals from fantastic lineages.


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## richardsc (Mar 21, 2012)

pffffft,so called cheap or more expensive ,they all deserve the same upkeep,and you will find plenty of cheap animals being way better cared for than expensive ones,look at how the markets died in the **** with thinks like albino darwins and green tree pythons,even they can be hard to move,hence the price drop,i dont mind a bargain animal,and to some a cheapy is every bit as nice a looking animal as some funky colored one,i prefer normal olives to albinos for instance,if i wanted a long yellow thing id invest in a pool noodle,people dont like half of these animals for there looks,its the profits they could make selling them and the elitist stigma that owning them gains,at the end of the day they are all the same


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## Batanga (Apr 27, 2012)

Here is my take on this subject.
I was recently talking to a member on this forum about certain people selling average looking reptiles for top dollar prices, I claimed that I didn't see how this was justified and he replied with one of the most naive responses I have ever heard which was "I would rather buy from someone who I know has a clean collection and good breeding stock"
Now my question here is how exactly would any person know if a collection is "clean" or that the stock is amazing? I don't see any large breeder ever coming out and admitting to an outbreak of disease or sickness publicly, nor do I see them coming out and calling the quality of their snakes "*****house" in a classified ad. So labelling another persons collection who you know only through an internet forum is naive.

I guess what I'm saying is people seem to buy based on what will sell or what the latest fad is at the moment rather than buying reptiles which appeal to them personally. Claims like "these produce some of the best womas around" always make me laugh a little, don't buy in to a sales pitch.....buy what you like and you will find the hobby most enjoyable!


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## ingie (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't find that naive at all. I find it very wise. I myself aim to buy from people who fit that description. Someone with good breeding stock could for example be someone who has been breeding the same pair for many years with fantastic results and high hatch rates. They may have kept track of babies people have purchased over the years, and received great feedback. As with all animals, there are variations in individual quality that go beyond markings and colour.

Someone with a 'clean collection' could be a person who has had a one way closed collection for many years and takes hygiene seriously. The longer you are in the reptile scene the more you get to know about how different people run their collections and who keeps what. Perhaps the member you spoke to knows some breeders who fit that description and they are happy to buy from them over random adds in the classifieds. 

I have found a few good breeders that I am really confident to receive quality healthy animals from, and I would rather go to them any day for whatever species they may keep, than buy from every Tom, Dick and Harry around. When I first started keeping reptiles I didn't think like that. However, if you are really serious about the hobby long term, and are going to invest a lot of time and finances into it, it is worthwhile to consider these things.


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## damian83 (Apr 27, 2012)

fugawi said:


> Where is the relationship between price and quality? What is a sub standard animal, colour, markings, lineage? Sounding very elitist to me, only an expensive pet is a good pet?


So are you saying a 100 dollar pound dog for a pet is no good that you have to buy a 1500 dollar with papers? Do you put your kids back inside their mothers if there ugly babies?
Or are you asking if other people think like that.


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## littlemay (Apr 27, 2012)

damian83 said:


> So are you saying a 100 dollar pound dog for a pet is no good that you have to buy a 1500 dollar with papers? Do you put your kids back inside their mothers if there ugly babies?
> *Or are you asking if other people think like that.*



Bingo


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Apr 27, 2012)

damian83 said:


> So are you saying a 100 dollar pound dog for a pet is no good that you have to buy a 1500 dollar with papers? Do you put your kids back inside their mothers if there ugly babies?
> Or are you asking if other people think like that.



All human babies are ugly little wrinkled things anyway. I only produce snake babies now, they are much prettier.LOL.

Cheers
Ian


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## Batanga (Apr 27, 2012)

ingie said:


> I don't find that naive at all. I find it very wise. I myself aim to buy from people who fit that description. Someone with good breeding stock could for example be someone who has been breeding the same pair for many years with fantastic results and high hatch rates. They may have kept track of babies people have purchased over the years, and received great feedback. As with all animals, there are variations in individual quality that go beyond markings and colour.



You think it's wise to label a collection clean when you only know someone's claims and reputation over a forum? Never Physically seeing their setups, stock, quarantine protocols etc........I think that goes far beyond naive.

Someone with a 'clean collection' could be a person who has had a one way closed collection for many years and takes hygiene seriously. The longer you are in the reptile scene the more you get to know about how different people run their collections and who keeps what. Perhaps the member you spoke to knows some breeders who fit that description and they are happy to buy from them over random adds in the classifieds. [/QUOTE]

Again, how do you know this person takes "hygiene seriously" and how they run their collections? It's not like anyone is going to post pictures of snakes in filthy tubs or show reptiles in bad condition. You are basing it completely on assumption unless you know them personally and have seen their setups. The member I spoke to used to keep beardies in rat cages so I tend to take what he says with a grain of salt.

I have found a few good breeders that I am really confident to receive quality healthy animals from, and I would rather go to them any day for whatever species they may keep, than buy from every Tom, Dick and Harry around. When I first started keeping reptiles I didn't think like that. However, if you are really serious about the hobby long term, and are going to invest a lot of time and finances into it, it is worthwhile to consider these things.[/QUOTE]

I think you missed the point of my post because you seem to have gone on a tangent in replying to what I wrote as nothing you said is really relevant in response.


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## -Peter (Apr 27, 2012)

If you intend to keep animals longterm and breed them with the intention of selling the offspring then you should heed the advice of the initial post. If you want a pet and if you want cheap, go for it. If you decide you dont want it anymore you will probably have trouble giving it away. Theres a lot of snakes around. Thats why you see so many standard animals with fancy value added names.


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## ingie (Apr 27, 2012)

Batanga,

How is what I said anymore of a tangent than what you said? LOL. I didn't realise I was limited to replying strictly to you and not able to add any independent thoughts. You need to take some deep breaths 

I never mentioned anything about buying from breeders I didn't know personally and have reason to trust. If you re read what I wrote i said I do personally know people with such collections that I like to buy from, and suggested that perhaps the person you spoke to did as well. How do I know this about my breeders? Well I dated one of them for quite some time and he taught me much of what I know on the topics haha. Is that enough?


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## wokka (Apr 27, 2012)

It sounds as though there is an opportunity to buy cheap animlas and to double theprice therby making them quality animals. lol


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## damian83 (Apr 27, 2012)

littlemay said:


> Bingo



If it's what you want pay for it. If you can't afford it don't get it. Or get a loan or pay it off.

Lol


MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> All human babies are ugly little wrinkled things anyway. I only produce snake babies now, they are much prettier.LOL.
> 
> Cheers
> Ian


Are you calling my girls ugly punk:x


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## littlemay (Apr 28, 2012)

-


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## connors81 (Apr 28, 2012)

*First Time Byer*

I bought my first snake 8 months ago, first I did my research on breeds, hardiness, temperment and size using a lot of site (including this one) I decided on a Bredli and set about making enquiries, I found a few avliable and went out to have a look first person (lets not call them a breeder) I went in asked to have a look "can I hold the hatchie" "no sorry just had 1st feed may throw up" """warning bells"""" "can I have a look at the parents" "no prob mate" took me to a room with two snakes housed together in a 4x2x2 enclosure "can I hold one" "nah mate sorry they don't like people" I said thanks but no thanks and left. This person was selling more expensive ones!!!! Next breeder I went to showed me feed and shed records had all defecations marked, let me hold all the bubs and both parents. I picked the cheaper one not because she was cheap but because she was the calmest and I have an 8 year old that loves snakes, she wasn't cheap because she was nasty and not advertised as such but because the rest of the clutch were hypo and she was the most classic of all markings. I don't think cheap means nasty but I think there are "breeders"out there just to make a buck and there are people who honestly love their snakes and bred!!!!!!!


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## Waterrat (Apr 28, 2012)

There are also breeders out there who honestly love their snakes, know what they're doing and they also like to make a buck.  Don't dismiss them.


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## connors81 (Apr 28, 2012)

that is true also, I guess what I meant is always even when the snake is expensive look at the breeder and their attitude don't think just because it is a bit pricier you are getting quality. LOOK around check things out not happy walk away.


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## GSXR_Boy (Apr 28, 2012)

connors81 said:


> I bought my first snake 8 months ago, first I did my research on breeds, hardiness, temperment and size using a lot of site (including this one) I decided on a Bredli and set about making enquiries, I found a few avliable and went out to have a look first person (lets not call them a breeder) I went in asked to have a look "can I hold the hatchie" "no sorry just had 1st feed may throw up" """warning bells"""" "can I have a look at the parents" "no prob mate" took me to a room with two snakes housed together in a 4x2x2 enclosure "can I hold one" "nah mate sorry they don't like people" I said thanks but no thanks and left. This person was selling more expensive ones!!!! !



I don't get why you got upset or warning bells when he said that you can't hold them as they just got fed?( not having a go) Or the bit about not being able to hold the parents? Maybe it is just me but i don't think there is anything wrong with that? I rarely let anyone else hold my snakes, especially other snake keepers. Sounds like he was just practising some good hubandry/quarrantine?


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## damian83 (Apr 28, 2012)

GSXR_Boy said:


> I don't get why you got upset or warning bells when he said that you can't hold them as they just got fed?( not having a go) Or the bit about not being able to hold the parents? Maybe it is just me but i don't think there is anything wrong with that? I rarely let anyone else hold my snakes, especially other snake keepers. Sounds like he was just practising some good hubandry/quarrantine?



You have a good point there but there are precautions you can take to let others hold them , alcahol wash or waer a disposable doctor gown lol.
But I do think if you have cash in ya wallet and about to take it home your gonna take it anyway holding one won't hurt, unless the animal 'just' Fed


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## stimigex (Apr 28, 2012)

connors81 said:


> I bought my first snake 8 months ago, first I did my research on breeds, hardiness, temperment and size using a lot of site (including this one) I decided on a Bredli and set about making enquiries, I found a few avliable and went out to have a look first person (lets not call them a breeder) I went in asked to have a look "can I hold the hatchie" "no sorry just had 1st feed may throw up" """warning bells"""" "can I have a look at the parents" "no prob mate" took me to a room with two snakes housed together in a 4x2x2 enclosure "can I hold one" "nah mate sorry they don't like people" I said thanks but no thanks and left. This person was selling more expensive ones!!!! Next breeder I went to showed me feed and shed records had all defecations marked, let me hold all the bubs and both parents. I picked the cheaper one not because she was cheap but because she was the calmest and I have an 8 year old that loves snakes, she wasn't cheap because she was nasty and not advertised as such but because the rest of the clutch were hypo and she was the most classic of all markings. I don't think cheap means nasty but I think there are "breeders"out there just to make a buck and there are people who honestly love their snakes and bred!!!!!!!



We NEVER allow anyone to handle a snake they are looking at until they have paid for it! As for viewing or handling the adults you would not get in the same room as them in the first place, There are photo's for this purpose! We have a very strict quarantine practice in place and
this does not allow for people having a play! If this was to happen ( and it wont) this would mean the snake would have to be housed at our quarantine address for the next 6-12 months!
We value our collection as well as the hatchlings we produce from this collection hence this practice!


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Apr 28, 2012)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> All human babies are ugly little wrinkled things anyway. I only produce snake babies now, they are much prettier.LOL.
> 
> Cheers
> Ian


Maybe you're doing it wrong... mine were all gorgeous....


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## mysnakesau (Apr 28, 2012)

connors81 said:


> ....... I went in asked to have a look "can I hold the hatchie" "no sorry just had 1st feed may throw up" """warning bells"""" "can I have a look at the parents" "no prob mate" took me to a room with two snakes housed together in a 4x2x2 enclosure "can I hold one" "nah mate sorry they don't like people" I said thanks but no thanks and left. .......!



I don't consider this a bad trait in a seller. For the safety and health of their collection, they have every right to refuse to allow people to handle their animals. You can be carrying mites or any kind of germs from one person's collection to another, and handling every one's animals until you decide which one you want, means you have potentially contaminated everybody's collection. 

I buy what I want, based on the appearance of the animal, not its price. I joined a two year waiting queue for 2 pairs of snakes from SXR, and spent the two years paying them off, $15 a week and they were paid off 6 weeks before they were due to ship out.



Waterrat said:


> There are also breeders out there who honestly love their snakes, know what they're doing and they also like to make a buck.  Don't dismiss them.



those complaining about people making money, do they give their stock away, free to good home with buy-back guarantees? i bet not. So even the critics are guilty of making money from their hobby, whether they sell them for more or less.


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## connors81 (Apr 28, 2012)

I understand about the quarantine issue with the parents my issue with what he said came most from the "1st" feed bit of what he said about hatchies as everything I have read seen or heard says they should be feeding well and have had a shed. Also never said I have an issue with people making money but making it by selling babies before they are ready to go is not as far as I'm concerned is bad practice in any animal. I bred
ed dogs and wouldn't let a pup go before it is eating well and will be able to be by itself. I understand snakes don't need mum but to sell a hatchie before it's feeding etc isn't that the same sort of thing.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Apr 28, 2012)

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with graduating it from a hobby to an income producing business. I think it is necessary for progress and longevity. I turned Stein Enclosures from a hobby to a full fledged business about a year and a half ago, which allowed me to spend a lot more time and money on enclosures and the quality of my product has improved massively as a result. From the humble beginnings of foam and render walls and timber framed glass doors they now boast full drainage, frameless glass doors, built in aquariums and a custom rock product that looks real and is strong enough even for lace monitors. We now send them all around Australia and hopefully soon the world. None of this would have happened had I kept it as a hobby. What I am trying to say to all the people who seem to bag anyone for wanting to make income from the reptile industry, I think it's healthy as long as their principles are in order and they are not out to rip people off.


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## mysnakesau (Apr 28, 2012)

connors81 said:


> I understand about the quarantine issue with the parents my issue with what he said came most from the "1st" feed bit of what he said about hatchies as everything I have read seen or heard says they should be feeding well and have had a shed. Also never said I have an issue with people making money but making it by selling babies before they are ready to go is not as far as I'm concerned is bad practice in any animal. I bred
> ed dogs and wouldn't let a pup go before it is eating well and will be able to be by itself. I understand snakes don't need mum but to sell a hatchie before it's feeding etc isn't that the same sort of thing.



You're right. A good breeder would not sell an animal that is not eating well, and voluntarily. I personally don't let babies go until they have had at least three unassisted feeds - this means they are taking their food eagerly without needing to be teased. But in saying this, the buyer needs to address some common sense and responsibility, too. I have sold good feeders only to have the buyers contact me because their new snake is refusing to eat. One came back to me 3 weeks after I sold it because the buyer was scared of it. I deliberately picked out my best feeder for him knowing his lack of experience, but that little snake came back to me refusing to eat for 6 weeks before i resorted to trying a live mouse. The snake pounced on it straight away, but still would not eat a thawed one straight after. I had to feed him live for 4 weeks before I finally got him back onto dead food. He was eating well and back to normal so let him go. The next buyer, an experienced snake keeper could not get that snake eating properly and had to resort to force feeding.

So while I agree a good breeder makes sure they are selling healthy, feeding snakes, what happens once they leave the seller, isn't always an issue that is the fault of the seller. So always talk to the sellers before blasting them on here. Issues can often be simply resolved, saving everyone un-necessary heartache.


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## Red-Ink (Apr 28, 2012)

connors81 said:


> I understand about the quarantine issue with the parents my issue with what he said came most from the "1st" feed bit of what he said about hatchies as everything I have read seen or heard says they should be feeding well and have had a shed. Also never said I have an issue with people making money but making it by selling babies before they are ready to go is not as far as I'm concerned is bad practice in any animal. I bred
> ed dogs and wouldn't let a pup go before it is eating well and will be able to be by itself. I understand snakes don't need mum but to sell a hatchie before it's feeding etc isn't that the same sort of thing.



Was the seller willing to let you take the snake home that has only 1 feed before it was established? Did you ask when they were willing to let it go?


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## connors81 (Apr 28, 2012)

Red-Ink said:


> Was the seller willing to let you take the snake home that has only 1 feed before it was established? Did you ask when they were willing to let it go?



Yes was taking home that day. (hatchie had been fed two days before) Hence "warning bells"



mysnakesau said:


> You're right. A good breeder would not sell an animal that is not eating well, and voluntarily. I personally don't let babies go until they have had at least three unassisted feeds - this means they are taking their food eagerly without needing to be teased. But in saying this, the buyer needs to address some common sense and responsibility, too. I have sold good feeders only to have the buyers contact me because their new snake is refusing to eat. One came back to me 3 weeks after I sold it because the buyer was scared of it. I deliberately picked out my best feeder for him knowing his lack of experience, but that little snake came back to me refusing to eat for 6 weeks before i resorted to trying a live mouse. The snake pounced on it straight away, but still would not eat a thawed one straight after. I had to feed him live for 4 weeks before I finally got him back onto dead food. He was eating well and back to normal so let him go. The next buyer, an experienced snake keeper could not get that snake eating properly and had to resort to force feeding.
> 
> So while I agree a good breeder makes sure they are selling healthy, feeding snakes, what happens once they leave the seller, isn't always an issue that is the fault of the seller. So always talk to the sellers before blasting them on here. Issues can often be simply resolved, saving everyone un-necessary heartache.



I would have thought walking away was common sense for me, I have handled and looked after adult established snakes but this was my first hatchie, therefore I wanted a snake that had had a few feeds and a shed, I am not blasting the seller simply stating this seemed off to me. The seller I ended up getting Chop off said call anytime any problem so far we haven't had any, the other guy basically wanted me to take a hatchie and was very pissed that I left without one saying I wouldn't find better for his "price" maybe shes not the prettiest (although I think she is lovely) but she has a great temperment and feeds exceptionally well. Maybe the other would have been fine but being a sorta newbie I went with my gut that something was off.


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## mysnakesau (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm not disputing you acted sensibly. I would have done the same. i would not buy a hatchling that's had just one feed. I was just commenting, that once you do get one home, be sure you stay in contact with the person you buy from. Nobody knows your hatchling better than its breeder.


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## longqi (Oct 20, 2012)

mysnakesau said:


> I'm not disputing you acted sensibly. I would have done the same. i would not buy a hatchling that's had just one feed. I was just commenting, that once you do get one home, be sure you stay in contact with the person you buy from. Nobody knows your hatchling better than its breeder.



For me it would all depend on the breed of snake
I would happily buy a Jungle Diamond or Olive that had only had one feed or even no feed if they looked healthy
Thats because they are all garbage guts and easy to get feeding

But I would probably walk away from Albino Darwin, Golden tree snake, GTP,and probably a few others as they are noted as being more difficult to get started in many instances

Basically every situation is different and seldom black and white
Simply various shades of grey

So it is up to the individual buyer and their knowledge and expectations


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