# What exactly is a Jag?



## Xeaal (Nov 5, 2012)

Please forgive my ignorance, but the internet has not been very helpful. I have seen some amazing pythons of gorgeous colors called "Jags". However, I can't seem to nail down whether they are always a cross between a Jungle Python and "whatever" or can be any cross of any two Morelia types. I have seen some advertised as "Jungle Coastal Jag" - a cross between both, or it's own type? I have also read that the gene which produces the beautiful colors can also be found to have caused some health issues later in the snakes life. Like I said.. heaps of info on the Net, but nothing very concrete. Hope these questions don't seem too silly.


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## thomasssss (Nov 5, 2012)

jags are morph that originated overseas it was originally a coastal carpet but now they've been crossed out so many different ways , there are jags and jag sibs , jags carry the gene and look cool but have nuero problems whilst the jag sibs look normal in a sense but some are crossed so could look alright to some but im not a fan 

this is a subject of alot of controversy on here and the mods have locked a few threads early on in the past to avoid that argument so don't feel offended if they do the same here


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## Jacknifejimmy (Nov 5, 2012)

As said, jags are morphs - or crosses of species, can be either as the bloodlines are so mixed.
The ball pythons of the US are where the jag market here is heading the way I see it.
I love my pures, but just this weekend bought 2 jag sibs so I'm pretty indifferent on the subject. To me a beautiful snake is a beautiful snake...


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## thomasssss (Nov 5, 2012)

just crossing a species doesnt make it a jag it has to have the jag gene , just crossing say a jungle and a diamond only gives you a jungle x diamond


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## JrFear (Nov 5, 2012)

this subject makes me cry haha


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## Jacknifejimmy (Nov 5, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> just crossing a species doesnt make it a jag it has to have the jag gene , just crossing say a jungle and a diamond only gives you a jungle x diamond



Correct, I worded that last part about the bloodline wrong, apologies...

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JrFear said:


> this subject makes me cry haha



Why? it's nice to have new and refreshing threads on here...


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## phatty (Nov 5, 2012)

so what would a jag x jungle give you jungle jag ?


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## JrFear (Nov 5, 2012)

im curious why arnt pure jags just called a coastal?


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## phatty (Nov 5, 2012)

^^^ good point


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## Xeaal (Nov 5, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> just crossing a species doesnt make it a jag it has to have the jag gene , just crossing say a jungle and a diamond only gives you a jungle x diamond



So, any python can have the jag gene, it isn't just the Jungles?


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## thomasssss (Nov 5, 2012)

people still have pure jags in australia now ?  i think you'd be looking for a very long time and even then id still be suspicious if its a pure coastal , it originated as a coastal but that wasnt good enough so it was crossed and crossed until there is what there is in the market now

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Xeaal said:


> So, any python can have the jag gene, it isn't just the Jungles?


no , it has to have a parent that is already a jag to be a jag so as it originated in a coastal any jag is going to have that in it then whatever else has been thrown into the mix 
you cannot get a pure jungle jag imo as it didn't originate in jungles


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## Jacknifejimmy (Nov 5, 2012)

Xeaal said:


> So, any python can have the jag gene, it isn't just the Jungles?



It still has to come from a jag bloodline. Jungles are the most common because of patterns and colours produced - especially when mixed with RPM's...


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## JrFear (Nov 5, 2012)

so Jags are just coastals which people cross with other morelia to get the jag pattern but with different colours!?


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## thomasssss (Nov 5, 2012)

JrFear said:


> so Jags are just coastals which people cross with other morelia to get the jag pattern but with different colours!?


bingo , except like i said you'd be looking for a very long time to find a pure coastal jag in australia as far as i know


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## JrFear (Nov 5, 2012)

id still just prefer a normal coastal, jags, jag X's and intergrades are not my thing!


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## stimigex (Nov 5, 2012)

JrFear said:


> so Jags are just coastals which people cross with other morelia to get the jag pattern but with different colours!?



To say they are just coastals is not correct in the sense that the straight coastal jag ceased to exist quite a time back as they have been put accross every Morelia type for years. In effect it would be near impossible to find a pure coastal jag at all anywhere in the world!


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## Xeaal (Nov 5, 2012)

So the "jag" gene originated in coastal's, but is now found in many types of pythons due to the out-crossing? Oh - and sorry, here's another one I can't find an answer to: Is a BHP a type of (or related to) Woma? Seems only the head is a different color, but am very new to learning about snakes so please bear with me.


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## sanna (Nov 5, 2012)

Xeaal said:


> So the "jag" gene originated in coastal's, but is now found in many types of pythons due to the out-crossing? Oh - and sorry, here's another one I can't find an answer to: Is a BHP a type of (or related to) Woma? Seems only the head is a different color, but am very new to learning about snakes so please bear with me.




I have no idea about jags haha. But i can answer this question. Womas and BHPs are the two subspecies in the Aspidites family. So the same as childrens, spotteds and stimsons pythons are related through the Anteresia species, BHP's and Womas are related through that species


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## Xeaal (Nov 5, 2012)

ok thank you


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## jedi_339 (Nov 5, 2012)

sanna said:


> I have no idea about jags haha. But i can answer this question. Womas and BHPs are the two subspecies in the Aspidites family. So the same as childrens, spotteds and stimsons pythons are related through the Anteresia species, BHP's and Womas are related through that species




I'd just like to correct you there Sanna,

BHP's and Woma's are the two species of the _Aspidites_ genus, not sub species and the same for the _Antaresia _they are species of that particular genera.


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## saximus (Nov 5, 2012)

stimigex said:


> To say they are just coastals is not correct in the sense that the straight coastal jag ceased to exist quite a time back as they have been put accross every Morelia type for years. In effect it would be near impossible to find a pure coastal jag at all anywhere in the world!



Ridiculous, typically uneducated, hater rubbish comment. There are plenty of pure coastal jags around. Search the for sale section


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## shaunyboy (Nov 8, 2012)

JrFear said:


> im curious why arnt pure jags just called a coastal?



most likely because 2 normal coastals will not produce jags...

also the jag co dom morph,has been crossed into so many sub species of spilota,it would be wrong to just call all jags coastals

only coastal x pure coastal jags are coastal jags,the rest are crosses,irian jags,jungle jags,etc

re jags
the first jag ever produced was from 2 normal pure coastals,they were produced by jan eric engel of norway

he bred a jag hatchling back to a parent,to proove out this co dom morph

the Jaguar pattern and colour mutation is a coastal co dominant morph

cheers shaun

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stimigex said:


> To say they are just coastals is not correct in the sense that the straight coastal jag ceased to exist quite a time back as they have been put accross every Morelia type for years. In effect it would be near impossible to find a pure coastal jag at all anywhere in the world!



i disagree mate

there are PLENTY PURE jags in europe and the uk mate

jan eric engel from norway,who produced the first ever jag,still sells from the original pure coastal jag bloodlines

cheers shaun


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## mcbuggsy (Nov 9, 2012)

Can someone explain how I can post a photo here. You'll have to excuse me...I'm an old fart and not as computer literate as some.....I spent my youth running around the bush catching snakes and lizards and keeping animals and taking photos, where I should have been stuck inside in front of the Nerd box playing with computers.....except they hadn't been invented. Oops I digress. I received a python the other day which I believe to be a Jag and wanted to post the pic, but I don't know how....
HELP.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Nov 9, 2012)

mcbuggsy said:


> Can someone explain how I can post a photo here. You'll have to excuse me...I'm an old fart and not as computer literate as some.....I spent my youth running around the bush catching snakes and lizards and keeping animals and taking photos, where I should have been stuck inside in front of the Nerd box playing with computers.....except they hadn't been invented. Oops I digress. I received a python the other day which I believe to be a Jag and wanted to post the pic, but I don't know how....
> HELP.



go to the "go advanced" option, then click on the paper clip icon, then its pretty self explanatory


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## mcbuggsy (Nov 9, 2012)

So, its a long story but I ended up with this a couple of days ago......
Have never seen a Jag before and have never really been interested in them but I have to admit, it is a good looking snake.... assuming it is a Jag... Hope the attaching works...(I'm learning)


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## nervous (Nov 9, 2012)

mcbuggsy said:


> So, its a long story but I ended up with this a couple of days ago......
> Have never seen a Jag before and have never really been interested in them but I have to admit, it is a good looking snake.... assuming it is a Jag... Hope the attaching works...(I'm learning)



Yes, you have a nice looking jag there!


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## Albino93 (Nov 9, 2012)

nervous said:


> Yes, you have a nice looking jag there!



+1, a very nice jag indeed.


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## mcbuggsy (Nov 9, 2012)

Thanks Sezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.. worked it out...........Now all I need to do is to work out how to add an Avatar so you'se can see how handsome I am....(and to get into trouble for an off topic post?)


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## Rob (Nov 9, 2012)

mcbuggsy said:


> Thanks Sezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.. worked it out...........Now all I need to do is to work out how to add an Avatar so you'se can see how handsome I am....(and to get into trouble for an off topic post?)



Click on Settings, top right hand corner, then scroll down to "My Settings" & you will see "Edit Avatar". From memory, the pic has to be low-res (100x100 pixels) to work.


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## mcbuggsy (Nov 9, 2012)

Thanks Rob_N_Son. It worked.........I learn something new every day.


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## Justdragons (Nov 9, 2012)

if you search jag threads there is a link to a MASSIVE long post explaining what a jag is and where it comes from. im poo on the search function but its there and a very good run down .


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## Xeaal (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you; slowly learning more each day - though sometimes I think there are as many different answers as new questions lol.


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## zulu (Nov 10, 2012)

When the original jags were produced there was a picture on the european website at the time ,one looked like a typical coastal and the other like a type of cheynei .


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## saximus (Nov 10, 2012)

Is anyone with a good understanding of genetics able to explain how a co-dom mutation could arise from two normal looking parents? Obviously recessive mutations can be carried by normal looking animals until two of them happen to pair up but if the parents of the first jags looked normal then they weren't jags themselves.
Would it have to actually be a mutation/flaw that occurred at that exact generation?


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## junglepython2 (Nov 10, 2012)

The original Jag originated from a fluke mutation.

Anyone who thinks they have pure coastal Jags in Australia must also believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.


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## The_Geeza (Nov 10, 2012)

I thought it was a famous built Car form the UK !! but Norway also rings a bell :facepalm:


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## shaunyboy (Nov 15, 2012)

saximus said:


> Is anyone with a good understanding of genetics able to explain how a co-dom mutation could arise from two normal looking parents? Obviously recessive mutations can be carried by normal looking animals until two of them happen to pair up but if the parents of the first jags looked normal then they weren't jags themselves.
> Would it have to actually be a mutation/flaw that occurred at that exact generation?



the jaguar morph is a color and pattern mutation,originating from 2 normal coastals,kept by jan eric engel of norway mate

cheers shaun

cheers shaun


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## Colin (Nov 15, 2012)

New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more!

Genetic inheritance of *co-dominant* genes works in essentially the same manner as genetic inheritance in simple recessive genes, except for the fact that heterozygous animals are visibly different than normals. These visible "hets" can be bred together to produce an even more extreme variation of the mutation, often called a "*Super*." The "Super" is a *dominant* form of a co-dominant gene, and can be bred to a normal animal to produce entire clutches of the visible het, or co-dominant form. There is a marked difference between the visible het/co-dominant form and the homozygous super form. When we do not see a visible difference between the het and homozygous forms, the mutation is referred to as dominant as opposed to co-dominant. As with recessive mutations, we can use punnett squares to predict the genetics of offspring from a co-dominant breeding in the same manner as discussed above. One advantage of a co-dominant gene is that we are able to identify the heterozygous and homozygous gene carriers by their physical appearance; these animals will be visibly different from the normal (or wild-type) offspring. From a breeding perspective this is especially useful as there will never be "*possible-het*" offspring. 

*Normal X Co-dominant Parent = 50% Co-dominant 50% Normal
Co-dominant X Co-dominant Parent = 25% Normal 50% Co-dominant 25% Supers
Super X Normal = 100% Co-dominant

examples of co-dominant mutations in carpets are jags, zebras and hypo's
*

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[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Heterozygous *– possessing two different genes for a given trait. An animal with one mutated, recessive gene still appears normal; its mutated gene can be inherited by future offspring. A codominant animal is heterozygous for the dominant form of its mutated gene, yet is different in appearance than both the wild-type and homozygous forms. 
*Homozygous*[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] – A state in which both genes for a specific trait are the same. When a recessive gene is it its homozygous form, it makes the animal look different from the wild-type. When a dominant gene is in its homozygous state, it causes the animal to look different from both the wild-type and the heterozygous (codominant) forms.[/FONT][/FONT]
*Super **- *commonly used herpetocultural term for the dominant form of a co-dominant mutation.


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## saximus (Nov 15, 2012)

shaunyboy said:


> the jaguar morph is a color and pattern mutation,originating from 2 normal coastals,kept by jan eric engel of norway mate
> 
> cheers shaun
> 
> cheers shaun



Thanks yeah I know this. I meant how would it be possible for two normal parents to produce them. Like Colin said, you need at least one heterozygous parent. That's why I'm wondering if that means the mutation literally began at that generation


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## jinjajoe (Nov 15, 2012)

Intergrades are normal..... only termed intergrades due to man made boundaries......


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## junglepython2 (Nov 15, 2012)

saximus said:


> Thanks yeah I know this. I meant how would it be possible for two normal parents to produce them. Like Colin said, you need at least one heterozygous parent. That's why I'm wondering if that means the mutation literally began at that generation



That is correct, the mutation first occured in one of the offspring of the original pairing.


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## hugsta (Nov 15, 2012)

shaunyboy said:


> the jaguar morph is a color and pattern mutation,originating from 2 normal coastals,kept by jan eric engel of norway mate
> 
> cheers shaun
> 
> cheers shaun



Actually, the original pairing was an IJ with a mcdowelli. there was a lot of debate about this at the time, but I am pretty sure it was Nick Mutton who confirmed this as he was good friends with Eric. I can't remember why he said it was a pure pair, there was a reason for it, but it came out later that they were an IJ and a mcdowelli.


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## The_Geeza (Nov 15, 2012)

Colin said:


> New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more!
> 
> Genetic inheritance of *co-dominant* genes works in essentially the same manner as genetic inheritance in simple recessive genes, except for the fact that heterozygous animals are visibly different than normals. These visible "hets" can be bred together to produce an even more extreme variation of the mutation, often called a "*Super*." The "Super" is a *dominant* form of a co-dominant gene, and can be bred to a normal animal to produce entire clutches of the visible het, or co-dominant form. There is a marked difference between the visible het/co-dominant form and the homozygous super form. When we do not see a visible difference between the het and homozygous forms, the mutation is referred to as dominant as opposed to co-dominant. As with recessive mutations, we can use punnett squares to predict the genetics of offspring from a co-dominant breeding in the same manner as discussed above. One advantage of a co-dominant gene is that we are able to identify the heterozygous and homozygous gene carriers by their physical appearance; these animals will be visibly different from the normal (or wild-type) offspring. From a breeding perspective this is especially useful as there will never be "*possible-het*" offspring.
> 
> ...


Just anuva day at the office............think i better save this on me pc cause it guna take a while to sink in...lol...Thanks Col


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## ChargerWA (Nov 16, 2012)

Ha, it's quite amazing that this topic causes such angst. As a newbie I just don't get the fuss. 

Anyway, great question OP, I have wondered this too.


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## thepythonguy (Nov 16, 2012)

is it possible for the mutation to come about due to the lack of genetic diversity in Australian species being exported?
it's funny producing mutations of a protected species is illegal in qld yet people are still doing it


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## shaunyboy (Nov 17, 2012)

hugsta said:


> Actually, the original pairing was an IJ with a mcdowelli. there was a lot of debate about this at the time, but I am pretty sure it was Nick Mutton who confirmed this as he was good friends with Eric. I can't remember why he said it was a pure pair, there was a reason for it, but it came out later that they were an IJ and a mcdowelli.



thanks for correcting me mate.....

i hate giving out wrong information (my bad)

cheers shaun

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thepythonguy said:


> is it possible for the mutation to come about due to the lack of genetic diversity in Australian species being exported?



if that were the case,then would there not be MORE frequently occuring Morphs/mutations turning up,as the lines get more and more inbred ?

hope that makes sense,it's 3:20am over here

cheers shaun


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## junglepython2 (Nov 17, 2012)

thepythonguy said:


> is it possible for the mutation to come about due to the lack of genetic diversity in Australian species being exported?
> it's funny producing mutations of a protected species is illegal in qld yet people are still doing it



No, inbreeding or lack of genetic diversity does not cause mutations. In addition to this the genetic diversity of overseas carpet populations would be much greater then most people think.


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## shaunyboy (Dec 1, 2012)

junglepython2 said:


> No, inbreeding or lack of genetic diversity does not cause mutations. In addition to this the genetic diversity of overseas carpet populations would be much greater then most people think.




it sure is mate

you would be surprized at how much new Morelia,keeps magically appearing in Europe 

cheers shaun

p.s.we're still waiting on some bloodlines as nice as, the Ozzy Hypo Coastals and Hypo Bredl appearing though


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## mcbuggsy (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but as mentioned above, I think the reason Jan Eric stated that his jags were a result of two coastals (mcdowelli) was that he was only licenced (in Norway?) to have mcdowelli and didn't want to get into trouble with authorities for having species that he wasn't licenced for........sorry to drag up this old thread but I wanted anotherlook at the photo of that jag that I scored....for freee.... they can be the best types...
Oh well, one year in quarantine and maybe I can breed him......
Please correct me if I'm wrong..........


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## Kraft (Dec 6, 2012)

Hay mcbuggsy I want a hatchie from that amazing jag!!!


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## shaunyboy (Dec 7, 2012)

mcbuggsy said:


> I'm sure this has been brought up before, but as mentioned above, I think the reason Jan Eric stated that his jags were a result of two coastals (mcdowelli) was that he was only licenced (in Norway?) to have mcdowelli and didn't want to get into trouble with authorities for having species that he wasn't licenced for........sorry to drag up this old thread but I wanted anotherlook at the photo of that jag that I scored....for freee.... they can be the best types...
> Oh well, one year in quarantine and maybe I can breed him......
> Please correct me if I'm wrong..........



thanks for the information mate.....

it makes perfect sense as Norway has very strict laws on snakes

so the jag Morph could well be an Irian Jaya mutation as opposed to a Coastal Morph,which most people thinks it is

my thanks to everyone,who posted info on the jag morph and Jan

cheers shaun


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## Red-Ink (Dec 7, 2012)

shaunyboy said:


> it sure is mate
> 
> you would be surprized at how much new Morelia,keeps magically appearing in Europe
> 
> ...



Next Hamm expo Shaun... the Black Van on the back carpark the one under the broken lamp. See the bloke there he should be able to sort you out.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Dec 7, 2012)

Nick Mutton was speculating that it was from IJ to Coastal pairing. He has since changed his mind and is now selling pure coastal jaguar pythons( from original pairing of coastal to coastal by Jan Eric Engel.

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There was no friendship between those two individuals.


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## longqi (Dec 7, 2012)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> Nick Mutton was speculating that it was from IJ to Coastal pairing. He has since changed his mind and is now selling pure coastal jaguar pythons( from original pairing of coastal to coastal by Jan Eric Engel.



From day 1 I was positive IJ was in the mix
I was also sure in my guts the neuro came from the IJ side
Every time I mentioned it I was slam dunked from all sides
Quite interesting bits coming out now


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 7, 2012)

I would love to hear some actual evidence from both sides instead of hearsay rubbish.


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## longqi (Dec 24, 2012)

GeckoJosh said:


> I would love to hear some actual evidence from both sides instead of hearsay rubbish.



Jan Engels wrote a paper on jags several years ago
But it was written several years after the jags were released for sale
He is the only one who knows the truth
Exactly how much of what he said is the truth is open to conjecture in my opinion

That paper is readily available on the web in many sites


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## Brandon (Jan 27, 2018)

Does anyone know how big a jag sib will get? will they get as big and thick as a normal jag or because they don't have that gene will they be smaller thanks


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## SpottedPythons (Jan 27, 2018)

Brandon said:


> Does anyone know how big a jag sib will get? will they get as big and thick as a normal jag or because they don't have that gene will they be smaller thanks


Same species, same size. Genes don't make a difference.


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