# Python X Breed Debate



## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

I figure as I read through so many threads and come across a various amount of debates in regards to wether or not people are for against these hybrids I figured I would start a thread to view peoples opinions. If you have an opinion please feel free to post it.

Personally I would not do this myself however having said that I am niether for or against.


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## Bakes (Feb 4, 2007)

This has been done to death. Myself I couldn't care less. We cross every other animal we have contact with too get traits we want, why should reptiles be any different.


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

I have only been on here a few weeks and have not yet come across a thread soley for this purpose so if the fact that i have started this annoys anyone I am sorry. But yes it is the same with all animals I agree


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## buck (Feb 4, 2007)

It really doesn't matter what peoples opinions are. The only opinion that matters is that of the relevant government agency and that is that it is illegal.


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## Adandiluvsmyreptiles (Feb 4, 2007)

Not illegal in all states. WE LOVE THEM!!!!!!!!


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## jordo (Feb 4, 2007)

krissy78 said:


> I have only been on here a few weeks and have not yet come across a thread soley for this purpose so if the fact that i have started this annoys anyone I am sorry. But yes it is the same with all animals I agree



Don't worry everythings been done to death on APS


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## mblissett (Feb 4, 2007)

I have 3 cross breed snakes and I wouldn't swap them for the world....

I love mine to death!!

Matt


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## buck (Feb 4, 2007)

Adandiluvsmyreptiles said:


> Not illegal in all states. WE LOVE THEM!!!!!!!!


 

Pretty sure when this came up a couple of months back with Trueblue and Steve the QLD regulations were posted here and it clearly stated that it was illegal.


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

if you're not planning to be a line breeder its not really an issue - just make sure if you ever do breed them to tell people what it is exactly that they're getting. Alot of people want to keep the locality and sub species of their pythons pure on this site, and in this country - which is fair enough - but if these intergrades (sp?) are more of a pet thing then I personally don't see a problem with it - just my 5 cents.


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## buck (Feb 4, 2007)

gaara said:


> if you're not planning to be a line breeder its not really an issue - just make sure if you ever do breed them to tell people what it is exactly that they're getting. Alot of people want to keep the locality and sub species of their pythons pure on this site, and in this country - which is fair enough - but if these intergrades (sp?) are more of a pet thing then I personally don't see a problem with it - just my 5 cents.


 

Oh no here we go. You had to say the "I" word......

Hybrids ARE NOT intergrades.


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

lol calm down. I don't know the difference yet as I have no interest in diamonds. Enlighten me!


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

What is an integrade?


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

*Intergrade*: offspring of two different subspecies i.e. Diamond Pythons and Coastal Carpet Pythons (Note: definition is the subject of much debate)

*Hybrid*: Offspring of two different species (Note: definition subject of much discussion)

Offered by APS's own terminology index. So Buck, with your infinite wisdom, please give aps the final and *true* definition, if you'd be so kind?


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## buck (Feb 4, 2007)

This thread contains a post by bigguy that explains it pretty well http://www.aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=26547&highlight=intergrade


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

it all just seems like semantics to me


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

gaara said:


> *Intergrade*: offspring of two different subspecies i.e. Diamond Pythons and Coastal Carpet Pythons (Note: definition is the subject of much debate)
> 
> *Hybrid*: Offspring of two different species (Note: definition subject of much discussion)
> 
> Offered by APS's own terminology index. So Buck, with your infinite wisdom, please give aps the final and *true* definition, if you'd be so kind?



There is no definition its just a bunch of words used to create drama on internet forums.


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## NickM (Feb 4, 2007)

I figured I would add my opinions and observations.
As an american keeper Ihave seen first hand the damage that this interbreeding can do,
In theEarly 90s it was very easy to obtain pure jungles, coastals and Diamonds in the USA
Begining around 1992 a few breeders started crossing diamonds to jungles and to a lesser extent Diamonds to coastals.
All made the same tired arguements that always stated that, "as long as you honestly represent them it wont be a problem" This of course was non-sense and I watched over the next 15 years as the intergrades spread like a disease through US collections. 
Now in 2007 it is EXTREMELY difficult to locate any pure stock with any confidence.
I have managed to track down pure stock of every carpet taxon available in the US but it has taken a few years to do it.
Another problem is that the mindset here is so polluted that even though I have pure lines with a traceable ancestry I now have to argue with other breeders who simply find it impossible to think that one could even have a pure cheynei or macdowelli at this late date.
Over here the introduction of a few mutations has magnfied the amount of hybridizing and intergrading to a huge degree.
The arguements for doing it are always the same and are just as shallow.
They never think of what they are giving up. 
I persoanally think the carpet group , along with Bredli are the greatest pythons in the world, and I say that having owned most of the worlds pythons species. It absolutely disgusts me to see what people have done to our very small gene pool over here.
So I would say to those in OZ who favor hybrids and itergrades, do you really want the Australian carpets captive gene pool to resemble ours?

Nick


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## Rennie (Feb 4, 2007)

Well said, thanks for that NickM. Hopefully some will think about that and change their minds about contributing to breeding out our pure stock over the next decade or so, then again there's plenty of people who only care about the mighty dollar.


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## scooby (Feb 4, 2007)

Well said Nick. 

People just dont know the damage they do until its too late.. Yeah the hatchies are all nice and cute but people that do this should be fined and their herps converscated. 
*X breeding* is simply just irresponsible and amateur, and the people that do this are just tourists to the hobby..


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## dazza_wilto (Feb 4, 2007)

i personally dont mind cross breeding, but make sure it doesnt get out of hand and a few years down the track have snakes that have like 3 or 4 different breeds


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## IsK67 (Feb 4, 2007)

gaara said:


> *Intergrade*: offspring of two different subspecies i.e. Diamond Pythons and Coastal Carpet Pythons (Note: definition is the subject of much debate)
> 
> *Hybrid*: Offspring of two different species (Note: definition subject of much discussion)
> 
> Offered by APS's own terminology index. So Buck, with your infinite wisdom, please give aps the final and *true* definition, if you'd be so kind?



*Intergrade*: 
Function: intransitive verb
: to merge gradually one with another through a continuous series of intermediate forms
Function: noun
: A transitional stage, form, or type.

*Hybrid*: 
Function: _noun_
: The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

So it would appear that both Intergrade and Hybrid can be used to describe what is being argued about here. Whether this event occurs naturally or in captivity it is not defined by either of these words.

Source: 
http://www.merriam-webster.com
http://www.thefreedictionary.com
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/reptiles/information/reptile_glossary.php
http://www.wordwebonline.com


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## ad (Feb 4, 2007)

There is no valid reason to cross breed our native animals.
These are not domestic cats, dogs - they are our native wildlife - respect them for that.
Adam.


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## IsK67 (Feb 4, 2007)

ad said:


> There is no valid reason to cross breed our native animals.
> These are not domestic cats, dogs - they are our native wildlife - respect them for that.
> Adam.



Sounds like a great idea.

IsK


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

that's precisely right ad our native wildlife, yet we still see fit to as i've said before keep them in glass/timber enclosures that may or may not be to small for them for our own personal gain/enjoyment. Go Figure


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## steve6610 (Feb 4, 2007)

pmsl........... good point krissy, once they get taken from the wild or are bred in captivity they no longer are wildlife, they are pets, 

one point buck, it's not illegal to cross breed in qld, it's illegal to knowingly breed hybrids, if you look into it you will find out that all morelia can be recorded under the one species in your record book in qld, so you can LEGALLY cross breed them, 

but thats only my opinion on the rules, others have theirs, 

but this has been done to death, in the end everybody will do as they want, and just another point, it isn't illegal to own a hybrid in qld, just like we can own an albino but can't breed morphs.............

before certain members want to start attacking me again, please keep any personal attacks to yourself, this is a open forum and i'm intitled to my opinion and i have answered a question, fee free to have your say, just don't make it personal........................


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## GreatSage (Feb 4, 2007)

Krissy78,

Not having a go, but you will find that people will tell you this has been done to death,
so I suggest using the search funtion on this site to help locate these topics and I am sure
if you type Hybrid, Integrade there will be a myriad of topics and peoples opions.
And as some people say "get the pocorn sit back and enjoy"

Have fun


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## rumpig (Feb 4, 2007)

Adandiluvsmyreptiles said:


> Not illegal in all states. WE LOVE THEM!!!!!!!!



it should be 



ad said:


> There is no valid reason to cross breed our native animals.
> These are not domestic cats, dogs - they are our native wildlife - respect them for that.
> Adam.



i agree 
i hate cross breeds


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## Hetty (Feb 4, 2007)

ad said:


> There is no valid reason to cross breed our native animals.
> These are not domestic cats, dogs - they are our native wildlife - respect them for that.
> Adam.



Agreed.


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## Bryony (Feb 4, 2007)

eventually there will be no pure bred dogs....only custom made
eventually there will be no pure bred cats....only custom made
eventually there will be no pure bred what evers cause everyone wants a custom something

they are even doing it with human babies....genetic selection.....

so.....what else can ya do?

we should not penalize an animal for being a cross breed....its not its fault


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## Aussie Python Lover (Feb 4, 2007)

well the fact that snakes cant tell the difference from its breed to the same breed in a female snakes same with cats and dogs bird and everything else if a female is in season then any male will breed with her no matter how or where or when so ppl saying all this crap about its wrong to do in captivity just think how you think all the breeds came about in the first place.....!!!!! And how we all have these awesome fantastic snakes in care now and how you get xbreeds.....simple fact is that out in the wild snakes are mating with other snakes etc etc


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## Aussie Python Lover (Feb 4, 2007)

xbreeds will be around forever no mater who is doing it......


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

ROFL Aussie Python Lover, that is a good point, I am just so glad as humans we can tell the difference between our species (well with the exception of some wierdo's of course) but that's a topic for a whole different place.


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## Bryony (Feb 4, 2007)

didn't anyone see that south park where the people of the future looked like all cultures combined and with a language to match!

We inter breed....why cant the animals?

(dont bite me head off)


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## ravensgait (Feb 4, 2007)

I can settle this-- this is what happens when you cross breed!!! this is a JungleXDiamond 






I'm one of the polluted people Nick was talking about lol I think people should be able to breed what they want. Randy


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

Cant say I did Bry but just for the record eeeeeeeeeeew on the interbreeding, but yes cross breeding with animals unfortunately is a common thing. I say if they are gonna do it that they're gonna do it


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

ravensgait said:


> I can settle this-- this is what happens when you cross breed!!! this is a JungleXDiamond
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good one ravensgait LOL


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2007)

That looks like one of those Gippsland earthworms.


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## Bryony (Feb 4, 2007)

krissy78 said:


> Cant say I did Bry but just for the record eeeeeeeeeeew on the interbreeding, but yes cross breeding with animals unfortunately is a common thing. I say if they are gonna do it that they're gonna do it



lol i ment inter-racial breeding


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

new what you meant bry just thought it would be a good laugh, thanks rofl


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## moosenoose (Feb 4, 2007)

I think some of the offspring produced look fantastic and have their place in collections - providing they don't escape into the wild - then the problem of producing such an animal might then become a little more transparent. It's not correct to say we should "follow suit" and do as the States are doing, far from it, but it'll eventually follow on here as most "trends" seem to. As a reptile breeding hobby nation we are decades behind what is going on in the States (as I've seen on the Reptile-Mania DVD) - that DVD is a real eye-opener!

I am also not aware of any legalities concerning x-breeding in Victoria and have seen it happening in various collections.

I have always been of the belief that, no matter what anyone tells me, there will always be the purists. You will always find someone trying their utmost to keep pure form breeds flourishing and I am one of those who loves the pure forms. Look at dog & cat breeders - often the dearest ones are the purebreds. Crossbreeding is a trend that we're going to have to get used to.


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## serpenttongue (Feb 4, 2007)

scooby said:


> *X breeding* is simply just irresponsible and amateur, and the people that do this are just tourists to the hobby..


 
Tourists to the hobby!! I like that!!


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## IsK67 (Feb 4, 2007)

ravensgait said:


> I can settle this-- this is what happens when you cross breed!!! this is a JungleXDiamond
> 
> 
> I'm one of the polluted people Nick was talking about lol I think people should be able to breed what they want. Randy



I sure hope that's an earth worm and not one you should be treating yourself for Randy.


IsK


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## TrueBlue (Feb 4, 2007)

nickm, you right on the money mate, i just wish that the people over here that continue to pollute our hooby with mongrels will stop, read your post and have a long hard think about what you have said and the eventual damage it WILL do to our hobby.
cheers mate we need an insight like yours from someone that has seen and experianced the enevitable of what this shocking pratice WILL do.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 4, 2007)

hitler tried and failed.


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

True Blue the post is here for me as a new comer to hear or read peoples views on interbreeding. It is not here for people to sign up for an interbreeding program. Relax. I don't believe in interbreeding these great animals either. However everyone is entitled to thier own views and opinions... I must say though that I certainly don't believe in the destroying of these cross breeds just because they are the result of something that should not have been done n the first place.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 4, 2007)

i agree krissy, im only stating my opinion.
your also right that its not the snakes falt but that of an irresponsable keeper, maybe we should destroy them instead.? or at least hope that the authorities come in to play soon, and cancell licences and remove the animals off keepers that continue to do this. I for one are all for this.


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## Chris89 (Feb 4, 2007)

Personally I think that interbreeding in captivity is wrong, because the breeding is under controlled environments. However, in the wild like someone said, the female is in season and will mate with any male.


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## junglepython2 (Feb 4, 2007)

Aussie Python Lover said:


> well the fact that snakes cant tell the difference from its breed to the same breed in a female snakes same with cats and dogs bird and everything else if a female is in season then any male will breed with her no matter how or where or when so ppl saying all this crap about its wrong to do in captivity just think how you think all the breeds came about in the first place.....!!!!! And how we all have these awesome fantastic snakes in care now and how you get xbreeds.....simple fact is that out in the wild snakes are mating with other snakes etc etc


 
You can't be serious, so where in the wild do we see bredli mating with diamonds or jungles with GTP's????


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## Aslan (Feb 4, 2007)

chris-cool said:


> Personally I think that interbreeding in captivity is wrong, because the breeding is under controlled environments. However, in the wild like someone said, the female is in season and will mate with any male.


 
Or it could just be that males aren't picky... 

I don't believe the hybridised animals should be destroyed...as stated earlier it is the error of the keeper not the animal. However am completely opposed to hybridising...

Just because "it happens in the wild" isn't sufficient justification for corrupting the animals... there are plenty of behaviours that happen in the wild that are not performed by responsible keepers in captivity - eating live prey for example...

..and in regards to the Diamond X's has it been considered that by producing these animals it may be possible to produce a far greater number of animals in captivity with the potential to suffer from DPS - an illness only found in captive snakes? Seems irresponsible...


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## grimbeny (Feb 4, 2007)

I just dont see the point of producing hybrids. I dont really know what should be done with hybrids, maybe it should be compulsory to desex them or somthing. and i think there should definatly be strict laws restricitng people from producing hybrids.


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## mblissett (Feb 4, 2007)

This is just a question....

I have no intention to breed whatsoever with my babies..... 

With Canaries and Goldfinch's Pet shops willingly buy these so called 'mules' as they have a better singing voice than a pure male canary. 

The females are sold off really cheap, no singing voice and are also infertile. 

Males from this X breeding are fertile but the females aren't.... 

Does anyone know if this is in fact the same with cross breed snakes or are they all fertile?

Matt

PS - If it wasn't for X breed snakes I wouldn't own any at this stage..... I love all my babies


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## junglepython2 (Feb 4, 2007)

mblissett said:


> This is just a question....
> 
> I have no intention to breed whatsoever with my babies.....
> 
> ...


 
It depends if your are crossing sub-species or species, if subspecies then they should be fertile such as a diamond x coastal. If it's a species it depends how closely related they are.


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> I think some of the offspring produced look fantastic and have their place in collections - providing they don't escape into the wild - then the problem of producing such an animal might then become a little more transparent.



Why is a hybrid escapiong into the wild anyworse than other snakes escaping? ill answer for you it is no differant at all both have the potential to breed and pollute gene pools.

Personally i think they are here to stay the more open and accepted it is the less the problem will be. Also crossing animals that are the smae species is no worse than breeding animals from differant or unkown localities IMO.

I also think there are plenty of breeders around that like to keep lines pure and im sure the will continue in the future and they will be a source of pure snakes for those that want them. They may all be albinos or striped and look far differant from what you would be likely to see in the wild but they will still be around.

Why dont ppl who hate hybrids just buy them all and use them as reptile food, put your money where your mouth is.


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

so true.... they will always be around. i plan on having 5 pairs of snakes I already have a pair of coastals which won't be ready for breeding til next season and a pair of water pythons (hopefully soon) that will be bred this season. I also have intentions for a pair of olives, bredli, and jungles, however these will be obtained as juvies or hatchies... as this year will be my first attempt at breeding. I have no intention to breed mixes as truth be told I love these snakes for what they are(PURES) However I would happily buy a mixed python as a pet just to look at if need be, my kids are also very interested in snakes and are to young to consider breeding them so one of these mixes for them would be perfect.


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## Isis (Feb 4, 2007)

Do a search and find out dont stir up all the **** again. Why dont the mods direct the newbies to the search instead of letting topics like this get done to death??????????
JMO


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## BigSven (Feb 4, 2007)

Aussie Python Lover said:


> well the fact that snakes cant tell the difference from its breed to the same breed in a female snakes same with cats and dogs bird and everything else if a female is in season then any male will breed with her no matter how or where or when so ppl saying all this crap about its wrong to do in captivity just think how you think all the breeds came about in the first place.....!!!!! And how we all have these awesome fantastic snakes in care now and how you get xbreeds.....simple fact is that out in the wild snakes are mating with other snakes etc etc


 

This is it people....this is the end of reptile keeping.


What kind of rubbish is the above? What infomation are you basing this on? Of all the dumbasss things i have read on this site this is the stupidest, most moronic, brain dead load or hippo [deleted] i have ever seen.

And before you say this is just your opinion, it's not your opinion because opinions are based on real infomation, actual evidence and knowledge.....which you have none of.

Now it's your turn to kick and scream about how mean i am and that i know nothing and that your friend knows has a friend of a friend that worked with Steve Irwin or some garbage but no one cares.
It's plain to see you have no knowledge of reptiles anywhere in the world let alone Australia and you shouldn't be giving advice to people about things you know nothing about.


Run away people run run run from these idiots it's your only hope.


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## grimbeny (Feb 4, 2007)

Your right there Sven


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## Australis (Feb 4, 2007)

I feel sorry for the countless people who get taken advantage off when you buy thier first python, pay top dollar, and get hoodwinked with a hybrid.... would sure leave a bad taste in your mouth.

Great Post Nick, its a shame what has happened in the USA and Europe, and yet in Australia so many people claim that there isnt a problem with crosses in your neck of the woods...

I hope a few of you yanks keep the animals from PNG pure, before they get lost in the jaguar craze.

For everyone who wants to compare other domestic hybrids to creating hybrids of our native wildlife, how can you compare the two? i love Australian wildlife no end, i would hate to see its natural variation lost in captivity to the "generic carpet python" of the future.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 4, 2007)

Aussie Python Lover said:


> simple fact is that out in the wild snakes are mating with other snakes etc etc



are you talking about different species mating together?


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## Australis (Feb 4, 2007)

BigSven said:


> .
> It's plain to see you have no knowledge of reptiles anywhere in the world let alone Australia and you shouldn't be giving advice to people about things you know nothing about.



Surely you must be mistaken BigSven!!

She couldnt be wrong about NT having no OPMV because they dont import any snakes from other states....., snakes loving to cuddle and have tea parties, feeding live rodents to snakes after freezing them alive....


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## Rennie (Feb 4, 2007)

Calm down people, it happens all the time in the wild, I have a diamond living near my house who is in a long distance relationship with a hot little jungle, every year he goes up north to mate then comes back down to avoid the hot weather. :lol:


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## Scleropages (Feb 4, 2007)

Rennie said:


> Calm down people, it happens all the time in the wild, I have a diamond living near my house who is in a long distance relationship with a hot little jungle, every year he goes up north to mate then comes back down to avoid the hot weather. :lol:


 

hahahhaha , erm everything has its place.... but just look what its like in america now for hybirds.................

Each to there own , we Just need a really good DMA test thingy to sort out the snakes for sale in the next few years


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

Is there any eveidence to suggest snakes dont hybridise in the wild? If there is i sure havnt seen it, I have seen plenty to make me think it does happen though.


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## Rennie (Feb 4, 2007)

cris said:


> Is there any eveidence to suggest snakes dont hybridise in the wild? If there is i sure havnt seen it, I have seen plenty to make me think it does happen though.



Of course it will happen with species living close or in the same locations, there are enough natural intergrades around to be fairly sure of that, but what is the point of crossing just so you can pop out a clutch and flog them off for half what a pure is worth? Fair enough, I can see the point (I'm not saying I agree, I just see the point) if you are going for a certain trait which will add value to the offspring (like albino jungles, bredli, etc.) but so many people do it now because they are in a rush to start breeding. Why flood the market with average crosses that you are just going to have trouble selling anyway?


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## NickM (Feb 4, 2007)

If anyone thinks that the US carpet population is not completey ruined from this practice they have not looked very hard.
I had the chance to visit Austrlia in 2005 and it was a trip of a lifetime, we covered a good deal of the country, driving up the coast from Brisbae to Cape tribulation, also visiting The Alice and the Kakadu areas. 
I got to see a few personal collection and a few zoo collections. I was thrilled with the many locality specimens that were being kept. I was quite jealous I must admit when compared to what we have at home.
With such an amazing veriety I cant understand what would make someone want to make intergrades/hybrids. What exactly do they hope to gain? These crosses never seem to create anything even particularily interesting, yet the longterm damage is immense.
Now you have albinos and from what we have all heard Jaguars have landed in your country as well. These mutations seem to inspire more cross breeding at an alarming pace.
Here its as if they think they are in a race to be the first one to cross a jaguar with everything. Those stupid jaguar carpets have been crossed into every single carpet taxon avaialable in the USA. Each of those hybrid clutches also creates approx. 50% non-jaguar babies that in many cases can pass for either parent species. There is little demand for them and they enter the pet trade and once there their hybrid origin is quickly forgotten and they contribute to the problem.
But as long as you honestly represent them it wont casue any problems!!!!!

Nick


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## BigSven (Feb 4, 2007)

NickM said:


> If anyone thinks that the US carpet population is not completey ruined from this practice they have not looked very hard.
> I had the chance to visit Austrlia in 2005 and it was a trip of a lifetime, we covered a good deal of the country, driving up the coast from Brisbae to Cape tribulation, also visiting The Alice and the Kakadu areas.
> I got to see a few personal collection and a few zoo collections. I was thrilled with the many locality specimens that were being kept. I was quite jealous I must admit when compared to what we have at home.
> With such an amazing veriety I cant understand what would make someone want to make intergrades/hybrids. What exactly do they hope to gain? These crosses never seem to create anything even particularily interesting, yet the longterm damage is immense.
> ...


 

Read this again people, this is exactly what i have been saying for years.

What are you going to create from crossing these species and sub species? Nothing special.

All you are doing is creating a bigger problem, no matter how honest you are not everyone you sell to will be and then you get a snowball effect.
Albinos will create some nice looking snakes but that won't be that different to pure specimans.

The only thing thats different here compared to the US is that we can just go catch more wild pure snakes.....yet another problem which can come from hybridising.

I think people should listen to people from the US that say how many problems have come from hybridising.

One carpet python 'species' created in the USA is call _Morelia Spilota Americana_ to me that says it all.


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## rockman (Feb 4, 2007)

Australis said:


> Surely you must be mistaken BigSven!!
> 
> She couldnt be wrong about NT having no OPMV because they dont import any snakes from other states....., snakes loving to cuddle and have tea parties, feeding live rodents to snakes after freezing them alive....



The above must be taken as correct imformation , have a look at most of the posts here that support breeding mongrels . Most of these people that support this have been on site for less then a month , big posts number handing out great advice / experience , NOT !!!!!!! . It will be an interesting next couple of years for herps , with opmv / mongrel breeding / exotics and ingorance .


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

Isis said:


> Do a search and find out dont stir up all the **** again. Why dont the mods direct the newbies to the search instead of letting topics like this get done to death??????????
> JMO


 
Generally as a new comer not everyone knows there way around a specific site, this is such the case for me... However a couple of people have told me about the search option ( i must say in a nicer manner) and at some point I will do just that. I have come across some really nice people on here and some real arrogant pigs. If you have nothing helpful/constructive to say put a sock in it. Views do change


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## Bryony (Feb 4, 2007)

Well........

 If you all feel so strongly about it......Write a petition about the laws.

- It stating that all intentional cross breeding be made illegal in all states, no exceptions.
- All already cross bred animals to live their lives out and hefty fines incurred if any intentional breeding occurs whilst under care of keeper.
- Any animal sold as a cross to be stated as such.
- No animals of different species to be kept in the same enclosure for any length in time and if they do and a cross breed is the results - termination of the offspring.

Would this make you all happy?

* Stop complaining about it and do something about it.
Nothing comes out of ridiculing others and being down right rude to people, suck it up and use your big mouths to say something to the people that can do something about this.*


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 4, 2007)

Australis said:


> Surely you must be mistaken BigSven!!
> 
> She couldnt be wrong about NT having no OPMV because they dont import any snakes from other states....., snakes loving to cuddle and have tea parties, feeding live rodents to snakes after freezing them alive....



and not to mention that she dosn't rip things of google, but for some strange reason other websites have word for word what she writes down.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 4, 2007)

NickM said:


> I had the chance to visit Austrlia in 2005 and it was a trip of a lifetime, we covered a good deal of the country, driving up the coast from Brisbae to Cape tribulation, also visiting The Alice and the Kakadu areas.



where is this "Austrlia and Brisbae"? i would like to visit them one day.


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## NickM (Feb 4, 2007)

Obviously I meant "Australia" and "Brisbane" I usually am more carefull with regards to spelling but my wife was standing over me waiting to use the computer.

Nick


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## ravensgait (Feb 4, 2007)

The problems with Carpets in the US isn't Integrades, it's that there were very few original animals. Lots of hey I have a this type carpet and wow there's a carpet of the opposite sex to breed to my carpet. So there is no real way to know that many Carpet Pythons in America are for sure say Jungles or Coastals.. We can go by the way an animal looks but!!!

Looking at photos of animals from Australia I see many more locals we seem to have species not locals in Carpets but then Jungles, Diamonds,Coastals ETC are just well locals when it comes down to it anyway.. I know I'll get the no they are not just locals!! think about it they are only because someone said they are(how many different subspecies have been given their own species status lately ?? off hand I can think of a few.

I have a question for the anti cross breeding folks and that is Why not cross them?? We keep hearing we're idiots or polluted etc etc but no real reason why not.. Please none of the -- That is what mother nature intended!! because well she's our mother too and I haven't heard her say no don't do that..People keep forgetting we're part of nature to!!! which really amazes me..

Take Jags or really any line that is bred for a certain trait.. We breed for something IE the looks of the animals and mother nature doesn't breed for looks alone, snakes like dogs don't care what the other looks like.. Ya want to be a purist then breed any two Jungles or two Diamonds together Oh but then there is the survival rate, would the Captive bred animals your breeding have survived in the wild?? You have no way to know that so???? So how can you be breeding pure the way mother nature intended?? You can't.. You can say what you like but unless it is happening in the wild it's not a pure bred anything and in the wild it's only as pure as the snakes doing the wild thing are themselves IE I don't think they run background checks on one another..

Like here in America, Europe or take you pick of locals they are never going back to your country to be released to the wild. Same can be said for Chondro's or any other Boa or Python we keep over here. So why should we be told what we can and can't breed??

I think you should be able to breed what you like and it should be no ones business but your own.. I know over there there is the chance of an escapee.. The big danger in that is in disease not cross breeding heck even if one got out and crossed with whatever in a number of generations the animals would be back to what they were before..

The topic of cross breeding is like talking about inbreeding it has more to do with feelings than facts...OK open season on Randy lol... Breed what you want , heck I breed mostly local animals but just hate seeing someone even thinking they have the right to tell me or anyone esle what they can or can't do..... We keep losing our freedoms but gladly breeding the snakes I want is one I still have...Not trying to insult anyone just putting it out there the way I see it...Randy


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

well put


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2007)

Lots of species hybridise in the wild, womas/blackheads, diamonds/coastals, various combinations of antaresia etc and no doubt others as well.
Also in reference to the DNA test mentioned that wouldn't help as carpets excluding Bredli are identical at a species level.



cris said:


> Is there any eveidence to suggest snakes dont hybridise in the wild? If there is i sure havnt seen it, I have seen plenty to make me think it does happen though.


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## IsK67 (Feb 4, 2007)

Bryony said:


> Well........
> 
> If you all feel so strongly about it......
> 
> ...





BigSven said:


> Unfortunalty you fall in to the group of many other 'herpers' which is jack of all trades master of none. Please bless us with another well thought out peice of dribble.





Bryony said:


> *
> Nothing comes out of ridiculing others and being down right rude to people, suck it up and use your big mouths to say something to the people that can do something about this.*



:|
IsK


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## whiteyluvsrum (Feb 4, 2007)

this is fun!


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## rooster (Feb 4, 2007)

Yes all valid opinions....I think there must be a line drawn as to the validity of these beasts.
The latest Parks and Wildlife licence has two categories for mixed breeds.One is carpet for what can,t be named anything else and the other is natural intergrade Carpet / diamond as occurs in the wild.Mixing of non naturally mixing species is an experiment and we don,t want to end up with the herp version of the labradoodle whic only exists so Don Bourke can make money.Then you have the natural blend as mentioned above carpet /diamond which should be from regions of mixed habitat.....Who knows what mixing took place 500 years ago to give us what we have today....
So i say mixing these guys for expermiental or comercial purposes just sux...


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## BigSven (Feb 4, 2007)

ravensgait said:


> The problems with Carpets in the US isn't Integrades, it's that there were very few original animals. Lots of hey I have a this type carpet and wow there's a carpet of the opposite sex to breed to my carpet. So there is no real way to know that many Carpet Pythons in America are for sure say Jungles or Coastals.. We can go by the way an animal looks but!!!
> 
> Looking at photos of animals from Australia I see many more locals we seem to have species not locals in Carpets but then Jungles, Diamonds,Coastals ETC are just well locals when it comes down to it anyway.. I know I'll get the no they are not just locals!! think about it they are only because someone said they are(how many different subspecies have been given their own species status lately ?? off hand I can think of a few.
> 
> ...


 
I honestly couldn't give a toss about what happens with the reptile trade OS, what i do care about is things that will effect Australias wild population of reptiles.
Two problems that come to mind from hybrising are: 
Hybrids escaping and breeding with native pythons, this does happen, there was a thread on another site where a person on the central coast of NSW (diamond python central) had been called out to remove two separate pythons, one of which was a hybrid the other was a coastal, neither of which belong living wild on the central coast.

The other problem is people wanting pure animals and collecting more from the wild putting more strain on wild populations, this will happen it already is happening.

I'm sure i could come up with more.

From a hobby point of veiw i don't like people crossing but i do realise that it's now part of the hobby and those who wish to cross breed snakes should be encourgaed to be honest abouty what they are doing rather than slamed for doing so, that way me may have some hope of keeping 'pure' and 'hybrid' pythons separate.


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## serpenttongue (Feb 4, 2007)

rockman said:


> have a look at most of the posts here that support breeding mongrels . Most of these people that support this have been on site for less then a month , big posts number handing out great advice / experience , NOT !!!!!!! .


 
I cant help thinking that the majority of keepers creating hybrids at the moment may well be people who are new to this hobby and want to make a quick buck, but will probably lose interest in snakes rather quickly, leaving the experienced, dedicated keepers to live with the mess they created.

I hope i'm wrong.


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

BigSven said:


> Hybrids escaping and breeding with native pythons, this does happen, there was a thread on another site where a person on the central coast of NSW (diamond python central) had been called out to remove two separate pythons, one of which was a hybrid the other was a coastal, neither of which belong living wild on the central coast.
> 
> The other problem is people wanting pure animals and collecting more from the wild putting more strain on wild populations, this will happen it already is happening.
> 
> ...




Your first point a very common one is completely flawed and has no relevance to hybrids in particular any snake that doesnt come from the exact area where you live can have this effect and with the amount of incompent ppl letting animals escape this is a sad reality that comes with ppl keeping herps that dont come from their area.

As for ppl collecting from the wild, they may do, in 99% of cases it wouldnt have any real effect on populations, if you think it will please gives some evidence to show how much of an effect it has. The fact that this can happen(even if illegal) destroys the arguement made by others that pure snakes will magically vanish if ppl breed hybrids.

You last point is right on the mark


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## Bryony (Feb 4, 2007)

Thank you IsK for backing me up.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 4, 2007)

serpenttongue said:


> I cant help thinking that the majority of keepers creating hybrids at the moment may well be people who are new to this hobby and want to make a quick buck, but will probably lose interest in snakes rather quickly, leaving the experienced, dedicated keepers to live with the mess they created.
> 
> I hope i'm wrong.



Unfortunately I think you are right ST.It does seem that a lot of the newer keepers in the hobby are getting too caught up in the breeding aspect of things before they even learn the basics of correct husbandry etc.As an example how many posts have cropped up here asking "How do I keep my diamond/coastal cross?Do I have to give it UV and or lower temps etc"

Then we have others who couldnt care less about what they are doing to the hobby.An example of this can be found in Victoria where someone has crossed an albino darwin with a jungle and produced a clutch.


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## IsK67 (Feb 4, 2007)

Bryony said:


> Well why dont *YOU* start a national education revolution and start it all off instead of critisising my sugestion. At least my suggestion would have been a start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hear, Hear.

IsK


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## IsK67 (Feb 4, 2007)

gaara said:


> Qft.



I don't think this is the thread for Quantum Field Theory. Members here can't agree on most things without going down this road.


IsK


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

har har har


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## rooster (Feb 4, 2007)

*escaping*

as for the point of some one being worried about hybrids escaping.
I am a novice but what difference would it make when too mwnay people just let their herps go when the novilty has worn off.Whats worse letting a hybrid go or a pure blood to create wild hybrids ????


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## Australis (Feb 4, 2007)

Its a great worry when threads pop-up questioning how many generations it takes to breed Hybrids until they are Pure animals again..... even more of a worry when people are actually saying its possible.... the blind leading the blind.. ignorance must be bliss!

As far as the classic hybrid lovers arguement that if they are sold for what they are its all good...

If people seriously think breeding Hybrids together will eventually result in pure animals again they would "honestly" be selling them as pures because they seem to think they are.....


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2007)

I agree with what has been said, why do some need to always resort to name calling and show no respect for others ?
I guess it must come down to 'you can have an opinion as it's mine'


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## BigSven (Feb 4, 2007)

Damn right


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## Slateman (Feb 4, 2007)

This topic is open again.
please try not to argue in bad way again so I don't have all this extra work to edit , delete and issue infractions again.


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

wow nice blanket censor slateman


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## steve6610 (Feb 4, 2007)

what did i miss, bugger, can somebody fill me in, lol, i was away from the computor most of today,


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## cyclamen (Feb 4, 2007)

i sooo cant be bothered to read any of this.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 4, 2007)

i think bryony has a good point, i say ley the authorities sort it out, its illegal in most states so the more we anouy them about the situation the more they are likey to do something about it.


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## Bryony (Feb 4, 2007)

I felt i had some very valid points, but they have been deleted now.

If education is the key, then why dosnt someone right a paper about it and post it so everyone can read it.
Containg proper research and no opinions.


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2007)

You didn't miss anything Steve, same old stuff, a few on their soapbox others don't agree, name calling and general immaturity. Just an average day really. 



steve6610 said:


> what did i miss, bugger, can somebody fill me in, lol, i was away from the computor most of today,


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## junglemad (Feb 4, 2007)

i have a diamond cross coastal which is a beautiful snake both in looks and temperament but he will only be kept with other males. I think it is irresponsible and poor husbandry to breed diamonds and coastals together when they are such impressive snakes without muddying the waters.


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## krissy78 (Feb 4, 2007)

Let me start by saying that I am extremely down on myself for the tension I have caused here, c'mon guys seriously, everyone has a right to thier opinion wether it be good or bad. Doesn't mean we have to nit pick at each other. Where's the Love. It is obvious that there is always going to be arguments for and against this topic, it's just one of those things that clearly some will agree on and some won't. It really is dissappointing though to see just how many people will resort to name calling. As has been said b4 if you have nothing nice to say............... well you know the rest.


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

what happened to everyone being entitled to their own opinion? Are "nasty" opinions invalid purely because they're perceived as nasty?...  just kidding.


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## IsK67 (Feb 4, 2007)

gaara said:


> what happened to everyone being entitled to their own opinion? Are "nasty" opinions invalid purely because they're perceived as nasty?...  just kidding.



Yes. I feel that an opinion is invalid once the persons argument has degraded to name calling or outright nonsense. 



krissy78 said:


> Let me start by saying that I am extremely down on myself for the tension I have caused here, c'mon guys seriously, everyone has a right to thier opinion wether it be good or bad. Doesn't mean we have to nit pick at each other. Where's the Love. It is obvious that there is always going to be arguments for and against this topic, it's just one of those things that clearly some will agree on and some won't. It really is dissappointing though to see just how many people will resort to name calling. As has been said b4 if you have nothing nice to say............... well you know the rest.



Lively and passionate debate is great for any topic so long as it remains on topic and participants conduct themselves maturely. 

If one can't continue the debate without debasing themselves and their argument are they really worthy of debate in the first place?

Another point would be to ensure that one has a correct understanding of definitions of the points they are arguing.

IsK


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## steve6610 (Feb 4, 2007)

boa said:


> You didn't miss anything Steve, same old stuff, a few on their soapbox others don't agree, name calling and general immaturity. Just an average day really.




i gathered thats what might have happened, i'm just happy to see i wasn't involved this time, lol, 

i'm so over this debate, i recomend all qlders get their rules and regulations out and have a read, you might be shocked to read the does and don'ts, 

it's illegal to breed HYBRIDS, (not crosses) 
it's illegal to breed morphs, ( albino, hypos and stripes )
it's illegal to make money from any native animal, (on a recreational licence) you can't make enough to have to pay tax, 

just to name a few , 

please take note that i'm talking about qld rules and have no idea as to any rules in other states, 
now i know the same members will come on and say i'm wrong, but thats ok because i have my rules and regulations in black and white and have talked about them with the local epa and the points above were pointed out to me, 

believe whoever you like, in the end it doesn't matter, 

and again i'll make it clear that i cross breed one clutch of eggs last year, if that means i'm a criminal, then so be it, but at least i'm an honest criminal, pmsl.................

have a nice day,


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## gaara (Feb 4, 2007)

I read that no one is sure that the different types of Morelia are actually differnt subspecies or not, is that right, or do I need to lay off the meth?


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## Tatelina (Feb 4, 2007)

buck said:


> It really doesn't matter what peoples opinions are. The only opinion that matters is that of the relevant government agency and that is that it is illegal.



Woh really?


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2007)

In some States it is yes.


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## Bryony (Feb 4, 2007)

steve6610 said:


> It's illegal to breed morphs, ( albino, hypos and stripes )


 
Why is that? (serious question)


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## Retic (Feb 4, 2007)

Because that is what it says in the regulations. Serious answer, technically it is apparently illegal to breed for a particular trait.


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

gaara said:


> I read that no one is sure that the different types of Morelia are actually differnt subspecies or not, is that right, or do I need to lay off the meth?



first of all , drugs are bad.
Morelia covers a variety of pythons including scrubbies, oenpellis and GTPs I think was Stevo meant to say in the other post was that Morelia Spilota(the eastern varieties of carpet snakes) can be recorded on the same page and cross bred if desired. It is possible that all of the eastern carpet snakes(jungles, MDs, diamonds and coastals) are all the same genetically just like differant races of ppl for example.


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## moosenoose (Feb 4, 2007)

cris said:


> Why is a hybrid escapiong into the wild anyworse than other snakes escaping? ill answer for you it is no differant at all both have the potential to breed and pollute gene pools.



You're right Cris, very true.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 4, 2007)

Steve6610
Didn't you post up a copy of the regulations once before ?
And didn't those regulations never mention the word morph any where in it ?

Cheers Dave


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## cris (Feb 4, 2007)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Steve6610
> Didn't you post up a copy of the regulations once before ?
> And didn't those regulations never mention the word morph any where in it ?
> 
> Cheers Dave



I believe mutation is the word, im sure someone will check for us.


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## steve6610 (Feb 4, 2007)

you should know dave, read it yourself like i've told everybody else to, 

it doesn't say cross breeding either does it dave?

yes cris, it says mutation, isn't morph short for mutation???????????????


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 4, 2007)

Mutation was the word ,and that is why you could never seriously have a problem or break rules by breeding pure reptiles regardless of what the off spring came out like, lines, stripes or otherwise. To claim its its a gainst the law is absolute garbage.


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## steve6610 (Feb 4, 2007)

so whats the meaning of mutation, i thought a morph was a mutation????

and now answer my question, i answered yours, 

does it say it's illegal to "cross breed in qld"


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## moosenoose (Feb 5, 2007)

Cooooool!! MUTATION!! :lol:

Can I just say, as if any crossbreeders would give a flying monkeys to anything that has been posted here  Don't beat each other up about it okay  hehehe


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2007)

The meaning of mutation as far as Park and wildlife would have intentioned, would be reptiles of a teratologic condition.
And their intended meaning for hybrids would be the cross breeding of different species or sub species.


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## cris (Feb 5, 2007)

PilbaraPythons said:


> The meaning of mutation as far as Park and wildlife would have intentioned, would be reptiles of a teratologic condition.
> And their intended meaning for hybrids would be the cross breeding of different species or sub species.



That would cover albinos wouldnt it? or is it just things like snakes with multiple heads or something? or am i way off? i dont know much about genetics and these funny words :lol:


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2007)

Teratogy means the study of monsters. Any mistake in embryonic development that causes an anomaly regardless of severity is deemed to be teralogic, and yes some class albinism as being teratologic. I am not convinced though that albinism should be considered as teratologic as it is a inherited gene flaw, not an embryonic development flaw. I am not an expert on this subject however.


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## Inkslinger (Feb 5, 2007)

gaara said:


> if you're not planning to be a line breeder its not really an issue - just make sure if you ever do breed them to tell people what it is exactly that they're getting. Alot of people want to keep the locality and sub species of their pythons pure on this site, and in this country - which is fair enough - but if these intergrades (sp?) are more of a pet thing then I personally don't see a problem with it - just my 5 cents.



*LINEBREEDING*, the most conservative form of inbreeding, is usually associated with slower improvement and limited risk of producing undesirable individuals. It can involve matings between closely or distantly related animals, but it does not emphasize continuous father-daughter, mother-son, or brother-sister matings. The main purpose of linebreeding is to transmit a large percentage of one outstanding ancestor's genes from generation to generation without causing an increase in the frequency of undesirable traits often associated with inbreeding.
Because linebreeding is not based strictly on mating closely related individuals (with very similar gene types), it does not necessarily cause a rapid increase in homozygous gene pairs. Consequently, it will not expose undesirable recessive genes as extensively as closebreeding. For this reason, linebreeding is generally a safer inbreeding program for most breeders.

*CROSSBREEDING* is the mating of animals from different breeds. Crossbreeding may also be used to produce heterosis, the sudden increase in vigor and fertility caused by a sudden increase in heterozygosity. Because animals from separate breeds usually carry very different genotypes, crossbreeding causes a more extreme form of heterosis. The possibility of each parent contributing identical alleles to their offspring is remote. Heterosis from crossbreeding often appears as a sudden improvement in physical characteristics, such as size, endurance, disease resistance, etc. New breeds are sometimes established by crossing members of two or more breeds and carefully inbreeding the original crossbred offspring. Crossbreeding initiates the desired change, while inbreeding increases the ability of each generation to breed "true to type".


*INBREEDING*'s purpose is to fix certain traits or the influence of certain ancestors upon the progeny. This procedure varies in degree from intense closebreeding to mild linebreeding. Although inbreeding can be detrimental to fertility, vigor within the offspring, it can also result in true-breeding strains of animals (that consistently pass important traits to their offspring). Because most breeds were formed by a process of inbreeding, the breeding of purebred animals is, my definition, a form of inbreeding. Some anhimals are more inbred than others. (Degree of inbreeding depends on the number of common ancestors.
From a genetic viewpoint, inbreeding results in an increase of the number of homozygous gene pairs in the offspring. Homozygous refers to a condition where two paired chromosomes have the same allelle (gene type) at a corresponding point. Because two close relatives tend to have more of the same alleles (by virtue of inheritance) than two unrelated individuals, their mating provides a greater chance for identical alleles to be paired within their offspring. This increase in homozygosity is directly related to the appearance of both desirable and detrimental characteristics that were not necessarily apparent in the father and mother
When animals are inbred haphazardly, without culling of inferior stock, many undesirable traits may become predominant in their offspring. For example, the inbred animals ability to resist disease often depressed. The growth rate of the animal and the average mature size within the inbred group frequently decreases. Nonselective inbreeding is directly related to a depressed fertility rate, an increase in abortion and stillbirth. Some basic principles of genetics show why these traits are directly related to inbreeding.

*CLOSEBREEDING*. The detrimental effects of inbreeding (such as decrease in vigor, fertility, and size) are usually exaggerated in a closebreeding system. This is especially true when average breeding stock are used and little culling has been implemented. Closebreeding can produce extremely good, or extremely poor, results. Success and failure depend on factors such as planninig, foundation stock, emphasis on culling, etc. Haphazard closebreeding could be very detrimental to the overall quality of the resulting offspring. To avoid disaster, a careful study of the merits and weaknesses of the breeding stock should precede a closebreeding program. Only the most outstanding animals can be used with any degree of safety in a long term closebreeding program.

Perhaps *closebreeding *and* inbreeding *are why we are seeing some of the problems we have.


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## Adam (Feb 5, 2007)

I love them. I will not be doing any cross breeding. I will however buy a nice looking cross bred snake and keep it as a pet only. I wouldn't breed it. I don't think people should get so upset by this subject, by all means have an opinion, no need to blast the people that do it.


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## ihaveherps (Feb 5, 2007)

hahahahaha

I couldnt sleep, so read the entire thread for some lite reading.... and feel dumber for doing so.

Honestly, the day is coming where the hobby will split in two, and for some of us it already has. There are plenty of people with trustworthy linages for their animals, have their good names due to their vigilance, and thats where I shop. Hybrid numbers WILL grow exponentially, so the front-line purist warriors may as well save their breaths, because any line that was EVER polluted will produce hybrids FOREVER. 

Today the hobby is in one of those "we are damned if we do, and damned if we dont" situations. No matter what sort of systems we put in place, papers for example, none are fail-safe, so we will sit in the same position we are in now and have to trust each other, and its a very small percentage of humans that are worth trusting. 

There will always be a place in the hobby for pure animals. Poeple who strive to keep pure collections will always have demand for their stock. Hybrids will quickly outstrip their demand, and the noobies chasing the buck will soon fall on their faces. When the hybrid situation hits its peak, and it becomes difficult to find pure animals ( I believe its almost here), the purists will be rewarded for their vigilance by both demand and value, and hopefully the hybridisers will have a hard time giving them away.

Regards
Simon


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## Adam (Feb 5, 2007)

Very well said ihaveherps.


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## Retic (Feb 5, 2007)

Yes indeed, well said and it's nice to know because 99% of my animals are, to my knowledge, pure I can be trusted.


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## ravensgait (Feb 5, 2007)

Jeez you make it sound like breeding a Diamond to a Coastal will bring on the end of the world!!This must be The End Of Days!!

I asked a question a while back and haven't seen anyone really answer it IE
"""" have a question for the anti cross breeding folks and that is Why not cross them?? We keep hearing we're idiots or polluted etc etc but no real reason why not.. Please none of the -- That is what mother nature intended!! because well she's our mother too and I haven't heard her say no don't do that..People keep forgetting we're part of nature to!!! which really amazes me..""" 

Simon I have a hard time believing that the majority of people will breed crosses... Over here I believe it to be that the Majority feel you should be able to breed what you want to.. Not that they like or would breed crosses themselves. 

I can remember someone offering some Tri breds last year, Jungle,Coastal,Diamond if I remember correctly. They were asking somewhere around a thousand dollars each for them...They didn't sell and didn't sell and well I think they finally unloaded some for a couple hundred bucks.. Now if I was looking to make some tri breeds for some easy cash that would have told me bad idea they don't look like much and no one wants to spend big money on them. Point being that if it isn't what people want and you can't sell it then don't breed it.. Most after that wont breed it!!

Now Diamond crosses are big over here heck I've had a couple. They don't bring as much as a Diamond but many are as nice looking as a Diamond and some are even better than most Diamonds. 

We have Jags and yeah do cross them to everything heck I know of at least two who are trying to cross them to Chondro's this year. Here's a Bredli Jag should it be destroyed or admired (she's mine so sticking around)





You may like the way she looks or because your anti cross you may hate the way she looks but who's decision should it be to breed animals like her?? I feel it should be the person who owns them...Randy


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## steve6610 (Feb 5, 2007)

PilbaraPythons said:


> The meaning of mutation as far as Park and wildlife would have intentioned, would be reptiles of a teratologic condition.
> And their intended meaning for hybrids would be the cross breeding of different species or sub species.



how do you know that what they intended, i asked you the meaning of mutation, not what you THINK they wanted the word to mean, again you have side steped the real question i asked, like you always do, i'm not interested in what you think they might have meant,

i'll ask again, whats the real meaning of mutation and does it say in the rules that it's illegal to cross breed, 

and not lets forget the rule about "making money" from reptiles, and the rule that your not aloud to be involved in a busness that sells reptiles and hold a recreational licence??????????

again i'm only talking about qld rules, 

and my point is certain members always harp on the fact that it's illegal to cross breed and forget all the other laws they them selves are breaking, and nowhere in the rules in black and white does it say it's illegal to cross breed..............


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## krissy78 (Feb 5, 2007)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Teratogy means the study of monsters. Any mistake in embryonic development that causes an anomaly regardless of severity is deemed to be teralogic, and yes some class albinism as being teratologic. I am not convinced though that albinism should be considered as teratologic as it is a inherited gene flaw, not an embryonic development flaw. I am not an expert on this subject however.


 
Funny you should mention that as I was going to say precisely the same thing. Albinism is a genetic flaw with most animals so I would assume that this would be the same for snakes. A german shepherd for example while normally black and tan every now and then throughout the different generations will throw a white puppy. Why because of a gene carried by the parent that at some point is stronger in a pup. And so this is how people came to breed white german shepherd. ( Information received from A breeder of German Shepherds)


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## Aussie Python Lover (Feb 5, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> You can't be serious, so where in the wild do we see bredli mating with diamonds or jungles with GTP's????


 

well how would anyone know?? seriously?? do you go out into the wild and watch them mate...... eg a rottweiler can mate with a female blue heeler.......why??? cause the female is in heat male dog dont care what breed it is so how can u sit there and say that snakes arent the same......NO ONE KNOWS... right now i wish i could cuss but id get another infraction LMAO some ppl are so lame and stupid......


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## krissy78 (Feb 5, 2007)

ravensgait said:


> Jeez you make it sound like breeding a Diamond to a Coastal will bring on the end of the world!!This must be The End Of Days!!
> 
> I asked a question a while back and haven't seen anyone really answer it IE
> """" have a question for the anti cross breeding folks and that is Why not cross them?? We keep hearing we're idiots or polluted etc etc but no real reason why not.. Please none of the -- That is what mother nature intended!! because well she's our mother too and I haven't heard her say no don't do that..People keep forgetting we're part of nature to!!! which really amazes me.."""
> ...


 

Nice baby you have there ravensgait i'd get me a python like her


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## TrueBlue (Feb 5, 2007)

with albinism, stripes, hypomelainism etc being rather common traits that all occur NATURALLY in the wild,(some more common that others), i belive it is NOT illegal to breed them in QLD. And parks have thus stated this.


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## moosenoose (Feb 5, 2007)

:lol: Who gives a stuff about what Queensland can or can't do! Isn't homosexuality still illegal there!! :lol: :lol:

(ps: Nothing to do with me!  - and not that there is anything wrong with it either  )


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## scooby (Feb 5, 2007)

I breed X breeds for live food. This is all they are good for.:lol: :lol:


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## TrueBlue (Feb 5, 2007)

moose, i think your refering to tasmania.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2007)

steve6610
How do I think I know what Parks and wildlife would have intended?
Common sense has led me to this conclusion.
You need to give Parks and Wildlife policies and the thought process behind them a little more credit, but not necessarily award credit to the sometimes uninformed individuals who work there and talk rubbish that perhaps you are sometimes exposed to. 
No regulations are intended to compromise the meaning or intention of, the very act that those regulations are governed under. This is in part, why a naturally occurring morph as represented by a naturally occurring population in the wild, could never be deemed illegal to breed in captivity. It’s a nature conservation act after all.
To attempt a prosecution on some body for breeding a natural occurring morph would clearly fail and therefore it would unlikely ever happen. 
What I do know though and this has no bearing on law, is that all wildlife departments around this country do not support people out there that blatantly cross breed different species, sub-species whether legally protected in a particular state or not. 

What is the relevance, and who really cares what I believe the meaning to be, of the word mutation as used in the text of wildlife regulations? However since you seem so keen to know, I would consider it to mean both teratologic also and cross bred species. 
You also seem hung up on this word cross breed. Just because it doesn’t say in the regulations specifically the word crossbreed, does not mean that hybrid was the word they believed it to mean and cover. Probably a poor analogy but it also doesn’t specifically say in the road rules that we can’t drive our car backwards in reverse but it would still be illegal under the word dangerous driving if you see my point.

Cheers Dave


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## moosenoose (Feb 5, 2007)

Whoops!


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## ravensgait (Feb 5, 2007)

LMAO off Scooby, good one.. Hey if we can't keep our sense of humor we're talking it way to seriously..

Thanks Krissy, the photo is a couple months old have to get some updated ones of her soon...Randy


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## Kali7 (Feb 5, 2007)

ya. semantics it is. all aussie carpet pythons are the same species. the naming of sub species is quite a recent thing - and still is not recognised everywhere.


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## krissy78 (Feb 5, 2007)

Randy pm when ya do would love to see that she is great, i am hoping on a diamond x coastal in a week or 2.... she is a nice little baby. although she is for my son and not for breeding purposes


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## -Peter (Feb 5, 2007)

Kali7 said:


> ya. semantics it is. all aussie carpet pythons are the same species. the naming of sub species is quite a recent thing - and still is not recognised everywhere.



People really should do research before they spout. It only goes to highlight ignorance.
There are three distinct carpet species in Australia. Carpet being a common or colloquial name. 
The sub species are well recognised both in science and hobby circles here and overseas.
6 months as an owner and and a copy of Weigel's Care of Captive Reptiles appears to be the level required these days to be an expert. To claim that because something is "a recent thing" as a negative is baseless. Check the description dates for quite a few Australian species. Are they invalid because they are recent?


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## cris (Feb 5, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> with albinism, stripes, hypomelainism etc being rather common traits that all occur NATURALLY in the wild,(some more common that others), i belive it is NOT illegal to breed them in QLD. And parks have thus stated this.



Did they tell you that verbally or have you got it in writing?
They have a habit of giving a differant story or intepretation each time you call often contradicting what others have said.

I heard a story of unlicenced who had off licence animals and they were told they didnt need a licence for them and they just had to take them to a vet for a check up :shock: obviously this is BS and they would still get in trouble if they were caught.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 5, 2007)

Verbally a number of times, think about it, because they are NATURALY occuring in the WILD there is no way they could stop it, and they know this. If it ever went as far as going to court,(which it never would), it would be laughted out instantly. How ever if a trait or something simular was produced only in captivity and was not found naturaly occuring in the wild they would have a leg to stand on.
Just like hybrids that are not, for what ever reason, capable of reproducing in the wild, they have a leg to stand on as this is deemed illegal.


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## Retic (Feb 5, 2007)

Firstly that is a beautiful looking snake and would love to see it when it gets to adulthood. 

I do agree with you some would have us believe it's the end of the world as we know it, I have no hybrids and quite possibly never will but I respect the opinions and views of others. 



ravensgait said:


> Jeez you make it sound like breeding a Diamond to a Coastal will bring on the end of the world!!This must be The End Of Days!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## junglepython2 (Feb 5, 2007)

Aussie Python Lover said:


> well how would anyone know?? seriously?? do you go out into the wild and watch them mate...... eg a rottweiler can mate with a female blue heeler.......why??? cause the female is in heat male dog dont care what breed it is so how can u sit there and say that snakes arent the same......NO ONE KNOWS... right now i wish i could cuss but id get another infraction LMAO some ppl are so lame and stupid......


 
Well I do know that bredli and diamonds don't mate in the wild because they are not found in the same area. Look google up for the distributions and find out for yourself.


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## ad (Feb 5, 2007)

lol


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