# How much of a risk is theft?



## -Adam- (Nov 4, 2019)

Hi all,

Just wondering how much of an issue theft is with the herp community?

I've seen numerous posts that seem to indicate there would be people who break into houses solely to steel snakes. 

Considering that wild life licenses don't appear to be that difficult to obtain, and the average purchase price of snakes are less (and probably hard to move) than jewelry, laptops or other electronic devices - is there a elevated risk in people knowing you have snakes over a few iPads, laptops, etc that one should be wary of? 

Is there a black market that I'm unfamiliar with that I should be aware of?


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## nuttylizardguy (Nov 4, 2019)

It's more of a risk if you tell everyone you keep reptiles / breed them , and the risk increases greatly if you have outdoor pits and enclosures are not home all the time and someone discovers this ( a driving by sighting , neighbour who has sticky fingers ).

Sadly with the way people are now these days , best to trust no one and tell no one nothing.

My advise is don't discuss or show your pets on social media ( you don't know who is reading the posts , and you really don't know most the " on line friends "). Facebook is a bonanza for crooks full of all manner of personal information.


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## Sdaji (Nov 5, 2019)

If you just have a few fairly common/cheap snakes you're at basically zero risk of theft. Animals are more difficult to steal, don't store as well and are far more identifiable than laptops etc. It would be stupid to steal a typical python to try to sell it.

Thefts occur with high end stuff worth big dollars. Some people have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of snakes, these are the ones who need to be concerned about theft, and yes, in those cases thefts do occur.

Assuming you don't have anything especially expensive, don't be paranoid about letting people know you have them or posting pictures on social media. If you do have a collection of snakes worth ten grand or more then yeah, either be paranoid and secretive or have an appropriate security system, as you would if you had a lot of expensive electronics or other valuables.


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## -Adam- (Nov 5, 2019)

Thanks guys,

I don't "do" social media apart from online forums. The problems I have seen facebook create have outweighed the pro's in my opinion. Plus it's likely that a few family members wouldn't even come to my house if they knew I had a snake. At least one would definitely be diagnosed with Ophiophobia if they were evaluated. It's easier just to keep it quiet all round in our case.

I just wasn't sure if the local junkies or crime rings had some sort of attraction to snakes with what has been mentioned elsewhere but it appears it's mostly a non issue which is nice to have confirmation. Thanks!


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## Herpetology (Nov 5, 2019)

It’s one thing I’m gonna have to be wary of when I get babies, I’m 100% not letting strangers within 10minutes of my house (there’s been cases where people have been followed back home) and will only trade during daylight hours in a public location like a McDonald’s


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## Yellowtail (Nov 5, 2019)

Since I started advertising frozen rodents for sale I have had several would be buyers cancel orders at the last minute when they realised they could not collect them from my place despite my proposed meeting place being more convenient for them. They go to extremes trying to engineer an appointment at my house and I can only assume they are trying to find our where my snakes are.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 5, 2019)

Personally, I only deliver. Did three 6 hour round trips last season and half a dozen hour or so ones. Not a problem for me. I don't do freight or home pickups.


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## nuttylizardguy (Nov 5, 2019)

What are cheap easy to find locally reptiles here are in most cases very valuable in the pet shop trade o/seas , it's easier for illegal wildlife traffickers to steel them from keepers and breeders than to try to find wild specimens and catch them.
[doublepost=1572930480,1572929635][/doublepost]


Sdaji said:


> If you just have a few fairly common/cheap snakes you're at basically zero risk of theft. Animals are more difficult to steal, don't store as well and are far more identifiable than laptops etc. It would be stupid to steal a typical python to try to sell it.
> 
> Thefts occur with high end stuff worth big dollars. Some people have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of snakes, these are the ones who need to be concerned about theft, and yes, in those cases thefts do occur.
> 
> Assuming you don't have anything especially expensive, don't be paranoid about letting people know you have them or posting pictures on social media. If you do have a collection of snakes worth ten grand or more then yeah, either be paranoid and secretive or have an appropriate security system, as you would if you had a lot of expensive electronics or other valuables.



Cheap easy to buy here , is nearly always scarce and expensive to buy in pet shops in places like the USA, Europe etc, a lot of reptile thievery is by international wildlife traffickers who very likely are stealing to order ( big box pet chain or distributer requests some specific species , the thief steals these and they are soon in luggage or a parcel going onto a jumbo to them, if not detected by customs, most are not detected , hence they consider it easy money , especially when there are always "mules" ready to run the risk of being caught ).



Herptology said:


> It’s one thing I’m gonna have to be wary of when I get babies, I’m 100% not letting strangers within 10minutes of my house (there’s been cases where people have been followed back home) and will only trade during daylight hours in a public location like a McDonald’s



The local breeders I've bought from ( BTs, EWS, and bearded dragons ) all except one used this policy which was fine by me ( as the buyer - I understand why they were not interested in having strangers come to their home ).
I don't like strangers coming to my home either and certainly wont let them past my front security door without a prior arranged appointment ( tradesmen to do work for me ).
[doublepost=1572931235][/doublepost]


-Adam- said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> I don't "do" social media apart from online forums. The problems I have seen facebook create have outweighed the pro's in my opinion. Plus it's likely that a few family members wouldn't even come to my house if they knew I had a snake. At least one would definitely be diagnosed with Ophiophobia if they were evaluated. It's easier just to keep it quiet all round in our case.
> 
> I just wasn't sure if the local junkies or crime rings had some sort of attraction to snakes with what has been mentioned elsewhere but it appears it's mostly a non issue which is nice to have confirmation. Thanks!



Junkies are not all there uptop between their ears and are very irrational in what they will do find their next fix. 
Quite a few drug busts I've seen reported on the nightly news have had reptiles in the squat, the drug-den, the secret drug lab. I'm betting most these have been stolen in by "customers" and swapped for a fix.


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## cement (Nov 12, 2019)

yeah I've done a few relocations with the police over the years from meth houses, and the animals were wild caught not stolen.
I've sold plenty of snakes to people I wouldn't trust coming to my house, but then I also sold snakes to Neil Simpson and snake ranch who for all intents and purposes seemed quite likeable, intelligent people, yet turned out to be,, well..............

Truth is there is no right or wrong way, trust your gut and do what you think is best.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 12, 2019)

cement said:


> Truth is there is no right or wrong way, trust your gut and do what you think is best.


Yep... that is why I've armed myself.


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## Herpetology (Nov 12, 2019)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Yep... that is why I've armed myself.


You have your dogs... meet my security. 120lb bull Arab with a bit of Labrador in him hehe


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 12, 2019)

Herptology said:


> You have your dogs... meet my security. 120lb bull Arab with a bit of Labrador in him hehe


Hehehe.... My security is in the form of a .22-250 Remington.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 12, 2019)

Anything that can be stolen/sold is of course tempting to those who have that mindset. There have been a few pet shops broken into where the only things taken were reptiles. Maybe easy to sell on the black market, maybe those receiving these animals cant afford to pay full price for them or know how easy they are to obtain legally.
On the other end of the scale a friend of mine was robbed at gun point for some high end animals some years ago. Of course there is risk, there is risk with everything you own if someone else wants it badly enough. Security is always the way to go, 3 adult Rotties with a dislike for strangers works for me.


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## MattPat (Nov 12, 2019)

I've just joined a few Facebook reptile for sale groups... and gotta say... there are a lot of people that post things like, "reptiles for sale PM me for details".

Dodgy as hell if you ask me.

Why not list what you have for sale? I take it because they one or a combination of:
- unlicensed
- wild caught
- stolen


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 12, 2019)

MattPat said:


> I've just joined a few Facebook reptile for sale groups... and gotta say... there are a lot of people that post things like, "reptiles for sale PM me for details".
> 
> Dodgy as hell if you ask me.
> 
> ...


NO it's because facebook wont allow sales of live animals.So people have to come up with different ways of advertising. It is getting ridiculous, I tried to sell an old ammo box and it was rejected even though a similar item was accepted


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## St3v3 (Nov 12, 2019)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hehehe.... My security is in the form of a .22-250 Remington.



Nice


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## MattPat (Nov 12, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> NO it's because facebook wont allow sales of live animals.So people have to come up with different ways of advertising. It is getting ridiculous, I tried to sell an old ammo box and it was rejected even though a similar item was accepted



Are you sure? Because plenty of people also list exactly what they have for sale, with photos, and it seems to be fine?


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## Herpetology (Nov 13, 2019)

MattPat said:


> Are you sure? Because plenty of people also list exactly what they have for sale, with photos, and it seems to be fine?


Some groups allow it, some don’t, the largest group got deleted because facebooks words “your members were selling animals”

With no chance to fix it

The general rule now is don’t include “price, $, numbers” in the ads anymore (witchin last 6~ months)


Wild caught/unlicensed animals are easy... the seller won’t provide a license #.


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## Flexxx (Nov 13, 2019)

Unfortunately there is a black market for everything. Crooks will put there hands on anything they can sell, and snakes and reptiles is some circle's are perceived as an exotic and dangerous pet, Much like the drug lords over seas having tigers and lions. I have more than snakes to worry about being stolen iv got cars and harleys dirt bikes and my weekend job is a contract shooter so a bunch of firearms including several pistols. Much more desirable than my snake collection to a criminal. I don't have my address closet thing is a suburb, I sell most things out of my factory or my folks house so no one unknown to me is invited to my house. I don't have my name on any social media, and my house has very high fences dead bolts on the doors bars over the windows Dobermans on guard and cctv linked to my phone all over the place someone is there 99.9% of the time and anything outside is locked and bolded to the ground. Im by no means in a bad area but bad people can travel, im not giving anything up that easy I worked to dam hard for it


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## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 13, 2019)

MattPat said:


> Are you sure? Because plenty of people also list exactly what they have for sale, with photos, and it seems to be fine?



Yes dragonlover 1 is correct. Pages are being shut down because of those people. 
Even asking for prices or giving too many details in the comments section is leading to pages getting closed down.


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 13, 2019)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Yes dragonlover 1 is correct. Pages are being shut down because of those people.
> Even asking for prices or giving too many details in the comments section is leading to pages getting closed down.


I tried to say I had 2 pygmy banded pythons, no price,no mention of sale and it was deleted


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