# Question about snake show with tiger snakes



## bobthefish (May 13, 2011)

Hi all- question for you.

My daughter just attended a snake show with her Year 1-2 class. The company doing the show had a live, non-defanged, active and wild caught Tiger snake that they let the kids pet. The only restraint was the handler holding it behind the head. This was in a room with somewhere around 40 kids between 5 and 8, and two teachers.

Am I missing something, or is this not a real good idea? Apparently it's very common here in Tassie.

I'd greatly appreciate your opinions before I pursue this matter with the school and government.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

So long as the handler was in total control there was no danger to the kids

BUT
To encourage kids to pet any snake in Tasmania could potentially lead to problems unless they very clearly taught them that they should never try to do this themselves
Tasmanian demonstrators would like to show kids that snakes are not slimy horrible beasties that will kill you on sight and that is something that should really be encouraged
Because of your laws down there they cannot use pythons to do this like they can in other states
So the demonstrators are caught with having to use tigers etc
Educationally it is an excellent way to assist in teaching kids about our wonderful reptiles
The tiger was most probably one of their pets
But showing it as a wild snake just adds to the 'mystique' of it all


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## redlittlejim (May 14, 2011)

Im with longqi on this, probably had since A hatchie and just play it off as wild. As long as they said that they should not be patting them in wild! Good education for them I think


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## snakeluvver (May 14, 2011)

In South Africa at a reptile show I've petted a Green Mamba and some type of cobra, using the same method, but I was 10 and knew the dangers. Someone that young in Tassie may try to go out and grab one behind the head and pat it, and that will probably not end well. I personally think its a stupid idea to let kids that young pat a deadly snake, as they dont understand the dangers.


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## sookie (May 14, 2011)

So where do we draw the line of educating kids?at what age are they to young to be playing with snakes,any kind.they all present their own certain dangers,ven or not.and it goes back to the emotion discussion,does the deadly tiger know it's place in the game,does it recognise that the kids are excited and curious and harmless?


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2011)

sookie said:


> and it goes back to the emotion discussion,does the deadly tiger know it's place in the game,does it recognise that the kids are excited and curious and harmless?


 
The tiger snake does not recognise anything, it's a reptile, not a person and tiger or any other species are not emotional in any shape or form. Their emotions are limited to biting or not biting - to put it simply.


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## cougars (May 14, 2011)

Stupid idea...Handler slips up your child gets bitten,Imagine receiving that phone call.


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## Inspiration (May 14, 2011)

Not sure about in Tassie, but we live in NQ and my daughter was holding snakes and crocodiles at wildlife parks and shows from about the age of 2 without me holding them with her like I did when she was under that age. I do think it's a bit silly with that many kids, though, because kids are loud, they have sudden movements, snakes can become startled, their "fight or flight" instinct (that we all have) sets in, you never know what happens. My daughter was bitten by a 4 foot python, decent sort or a bite even through heavy denim but at least it wasn't venomous. We had to keep it clean to stop it from getting infected, but no hospital stays or fear of her dying from the bite other than if it became infected. Not sure I'd be keen on my child being the one to touch it unless it was in a group of older kids who were not as likely to jump and make noise.


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## Jonno from ERD (May 14, 2011)

That's a ridiculously irresponsible thing for them to do. I'm all for full hands-on interaction with non-venomous reptiles, but the message that should be sent to kids about venomous snakes is a very clear "look but don't touch!".


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## wokka (May 14, 2011)

If people must pet snakes I am sure there are safer snakes to use for demonstration. Safer for reptile reputation and safer for the children. If the handler slipped for one of many reasons any good could soon be undone.


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## bigguy (May 14, 2011)

In most states the laws that govern exhibitors makes this practice illegal. However, in Tasmania there may be no laws and this practice is allowed. I personally feel it is a highly stupid thing to do. Just one slip and oppps, sorry about that. Not worth the risk.

As for using harmless species, Tasmania does not allow importation of reptiles. So for hands on they only have a choice of 3 venomous species, so they are up the creek without a paddle.


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## Nighthawk (May 14, 2011)

I'd be pursuing it. Ages 10+ they're old enough to understand 'look but don't touch', but any younger than that you really have to know the child to know if that knowledge is developed enough to take effect. I would trust my daughter at that age to know the difference, but we've raised her with and around snakes. She's four and knows not to touch any wild snakes she sees and to go get mum and dad, but if she came home from school at age 5-8 telling me that a handler had come it and was letting the children touch vens I'd still be having words with her teacher. Yeah, it's up to the parents to educate their children on what can and cannot be dangers in their immediate environment, but how many people actually do that? Count on one hand how many people reach for the telephone to call a catcher rather than a shovel. I'm all for educating future generations on native fauna, but there are ways to do it and giving kids the idea that a tiger snake is safe enough to approach, and whether or not an adult is telling them 'not to do it at home' if he's letting them stroke it there some kids don't hear the alternate message, that's not the way to do it. Not at that age anyway.


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## snakehandler (May 14, 2011)

Some of the people permitted to demonstrate reptiles in Tassie actually do have pythons and other reptiles which are much safer to pat. In Victoria a person who is not a demonstrator or demonstrators assistant (general public) cannot make contact with a reptile that is classified as a venomous animal, whether it can inflict a venomous bite or not.....its part of our regulations!


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

snakehandler said:


> Some of the people permitted to demonstrate reptiles in Tassie actually do have pythons and other reptiles which are much safer to pat. In Victoria a person who is not a demonstrator or demonstrators assistant (general public) cannot make contact with a reptile that is classified as a venomous animal, whether it can inflict a venomous bite or not.....its part of our regulations!



I never knew this at all about Demonstrators down there being allowed pythons
This totally changes everything
If they had access to pythons but still used Tigers in a petting display with kids it was unacceptable
Although I still believe it could have been done safely there were safer alternatives they did not use


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## kawasakirider (May 14, 2011)

snakeluvver said:


> In South Africa at a reptile show I've petted a Green Mamba and some type of cobra, using the same method, but I was 10 and knew the dangers. *Someone that young in Tassie may try to go out and grab one behind the head and pat it*, and that will probably not end well. I personally think its a stupid idea to let kids that young pat a deadly snake, as they dont understand the dangers.



What makes you more intelligent and aware of dangers than other children in Tassie?

The situation was probably safe, but there's always a minute chance something could go wrong... The handler could have tripped, have a stroke or anything. Unlikely, though. I'm sure the teacher would have wrangled the snake in no time, though


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## Waterrat (May 14, 2011)

snakehandler said:


> In Victoria a person who is not a demonstrator or demonstrators assistant (general public) cannot make contact with a reptile that is classified as a venomous animal, whether it can inflict a venomous bite or not.....its part of our regulations!



So, how do the "venomoids" fit into the schema of things? Are they still being used in demos? Please no RH bashing.


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## $NaKe PiMp (May 14, 2011)

i would really like to see evidence that touching a restrained elapid is going to make kids go running to the nearest bushland and dive on a tiger snake.


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## imported_Varanus (May 14, 2011)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> i would really like to see evidence that touching a restrained elapid is going to make kids go running to the nearest bushland and dive on a tiger snake.



It's already to late for some of us SP!


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

What waterrat asked is a very valid point
Why would Victorian Demonstrators even own vens if they cant let anyone touch them??

My first contact with touchable snakes was at La Perouse in Sydney
First snake I got to hold unassisted was a beautiful brownie at the same place
Probably many of the older hobbyists had similar experiences??


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## cement (May 14, 2011)

I did a demo at a school with young kids not that long ago , its not the snakes that you have to watch its the kids.
They bunch up and push and shove each other, they all want to touch and hold, their bloody noisy.

Theres no way I do it with vens!

I told them all to shut up and be quite (not those exact words!) while i went around with my brain damaged (so very quite) lacie, and the noise level just kept going up and up and I was trying to give the teacher the nod to ask them to quieten down but he wasn't watching. So I copped a floggin from the claws on one arm! Its the kids i tell ya! Monsters!


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## Snake_Whisperer (May 14, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> The tiger snake does not recognise anything, it's a reptile, not a person and tiger or any other species are not emotional in any shape or form. Their emotions are limited to biting or not biting - to put it simply.



LOL! That pretty much sums it up! 

(40 x Kids) + Tiger snake ≠ A good idea.
 Touchy touchy


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## Tassie97 (May 14, 2011)

i am not being involved


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## snakehandler (May 14, 2011)

A few years ago there were changes made to the conditions on a demonstrators permit which clearly stated that a venomous snake (whether it can inflict a venomous bite or not)...(this means venomoids) cannot be touched by the general public.......unless a letter of authroity from the director general is obtained, this is to allow demonstrators with appropriate permission to allow participants in venomous snake handling courses to pick up venomous snakes...otherwise it is TOTALLY against the regulations. This was challenged by a demonstrator in VCAT in 2008 and this individual lost......venomoids are considered to be a venomous species, even if they cannot inflict a venomous bite.


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## snakeluvver (May 14, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> What makes you more intelligent and aware of dangers than other children in Tassie?


 
Because a 6 yr old may think its ok cos they saw an adults do it, I know that they're dangerous and to be cautious and not get too close.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

WOW ^^^^
Thank god I wont be going back to Victoria
Wasnt there are a Demonstrator down your way who had 'de-venomed' brownies??

In saying that I dont have even have vens on display here as I want everyone to feel comfortable
Some people just cannot relax if they know a ven is within sight
My vens are only for me to enjoy


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## snakehandler (May 14, 2011)

As I said, even with the modified animals, they are a venomous species, therefor they cannot be handled by members of the general public, unless in an approved course with a letter of exemption.


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## bobthefish (May 14, 2011)

Tassie97 said:


> arhh cant pm bobthefish
> i wanted to talk to him ...
> well because of the stupid laws we have no other choice (it wasnt me)
> but fair dinkum the laws need to be changed so we can have pythons full stop.:x:x:x



You can email me at [email protected]

The guy had pythons with him- he told the kids that they were too nippy to pet. He had a really nice looking MD and in the past when I've seen his shows he's had a stimson, I think. He's a licensed zookeeper, and therefore can have them.

I'm a school teacher myself, and any time I have to do anything out of school with kids I have to do a risk management assessment. I just don't see how it could have passed that!

Thank you for your input all- I'm most appreciative. As a former (and nearly lifelong) snake owner myself, I definitely appreciate what he was trying to do, but I agree with those of you who said it wasn't worth the risk. I am of the camp that believes that it was safe, but all it would take is one misbehaved kid, one stumble, or anything like that, and it could have been very unsafe indeed.

My wife has been on the the ministry that handles this sort of thing, and they are trying to put new guidelines in place, as there are none here at the moment. But you'd think regardless of whether the guy was allowed to do it or not, he would have thought better of it.


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## Tassie97 (May 14, 2011)

i am not being involved


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## bobthefish (May 14, 2011)

Devonport


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## Tassie97 (May 14, 2011)

i am not being involved


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## Nik (May 14, 2011)

I love that bobthefish has an email address that is bobthewombat


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## varanid_mike (May 14, 2011)

With the range of pythons in Australia that are suitable for handling and public interaction there is never a reason to allow the general public to touch or handle an elapid or venomous colubrid (apart from courses).
All responsible demonstrators should never allow the general public anywhere near elapids as it sends out the wrong message and for the last few years has been illegal here in Victoria. It’s a good regulation and should really be implemented in all states.


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## Tassie97 (May 14, 2011)

i am not being involved


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## 87batesy (May 14, 2011)

Hey class today im going to show you a pistol now because of strict import laws i cant get a pistol with a safety lever or blank bullets.

Now to stop the gun shooting anyone i will simply put my finger over the barrel


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## MrFireStorm (May 15, 2011)

OK....I will attempt to clear and clarify and confirm a few facts/speculations already posted.

At present, NO importations are permitted into Tasmania. P&W put in place a morotorium in '09 whilst the government/p&w were having the regulations reviewed. Information I have been given from P&W is that the new regs were to be in place end of April '11 (Yet to confirm that this has been done). However, this does not open the importation regs as yet. The importation regs are expected to be opened at the end of this year.

As posted (by Snakehandler), some permit holders in the state have previously been approved to import mainland species (prior to morotorium). At present, I am aware of only 6 individual persons that this includes (of which I am one of those). One other person has been granted a "display" permit but as yet has not been able to import.

A number of smuggled species (pythons/lizards) are also being held (under Crown Permit) by licenced individuals (this was previously set in place to allow a variety of reptiles for educational purposes). By being permitted to keep these species in the state for education also meant that they were not euthanised.

I have personally conducted many displays around Tasmania (public, private organisations and government bodies) and have used all 3 species of snakes, variety of lizards and mainland species at all displays. I had a purpose built portable "snake pit" made a number of years ago to allow the public to view different species without viewing through glass. 
This causes a personal issue with me as many children would tap on the glass to make the animals move or strike (even with signs on the enclosures).
Whilst I was inside the "pit", one of the very 1st messages I put across was that "anything I did during the display should not be attempted by members of the public at home or in the wild".

At times I would have *control* of a venomous species and allow a member of the public to touch/feel the tail end of the animal. At *NO* time would I allow anyone near the "pointy" end of an animal, this included pythons and even blue tongues,
this was my own personal practice.

It is correct that at this time, no legislation/regs are in place prohibiting members of the public touching venomous snakes. Also not in place is the restriction of "free-handling" of venomous snakes during public displays. The latter has been a major issue recently and a number of persons have been in touch with P&W and the relevant ministers in an attempt to have this stopped.

Cheers
Darron


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## MickThow (May 15, 2011)

bobthefish said:


> Hi all- question for you.
> 
> My daughter just attended a snake show with her Year 1-2 class. The company doing the show had a live, non-defanged, active and wild caught Tiger snake that they let the kids pet. The only restraint was the handler holding it behind the head. This was in a room with somewhere around 40 kids between 5 and 8, and two teachers.
> 
> ...


 Feel free to contact Ross Monash DPIPQWE 1300 368 550 There is only one python that is "too nippy" the children did also touch a childrens python a bluetongue and a murry darling I also surgest that your school contact me if there is any issues that they have so they can be addresed. My phone is 0418 170 952. It would allso be nice if you told people of the brochure I give out to everyone that also outlines the important information on what and how to deal with snakes. Thank you Michael Thow


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## Tassie97 (May 15, 2011)

i am not being involved


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## [email protected] (May 15, 2011)

i have no worries with some one who lets someone touch a tiger snake........if the person though he was not capable of restraining and it could have bitten some one then he would have thrown it at them. lol


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## -Peter (May 15, 2011)

I have to say I am shocked by this. People still think that defanging snakes is a real option?


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## Tassie97 (May 15, 2011)

-Peter said:


> I have to say I am shocked by this. People still think that defanging snakes is a real option?


 
i agree and venomoid too stupid idea IMO


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## [email protected] (May 15, 2011)

yeah its not defanging its a venomoid taking the venom glands out...and replacing it with silicone.like a Brest implant....though yeah i do agree it should not be done as its disrespectful and cruel


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## Nighthawk (May 15, 2011)

$NaKe PiMp said:


> i would really like to see evidence that touching a restrained elapid is going to make kids go running to the nearest bushland and dive on a tiger snake.



This is probably going to sound more aggressive than I mean it, but do you have kids? Without the education we've given them I know mine would happily go looking for them after petting a restrained one, which is why I'm glad they're growing up around them so they know not to, and incidentally don't have to. I also had to give my nephew from NZ a talking-to after I busted him lifting up rocks and bush-bashing for snakes when he came to visit, so there are kids out there who would, and even if they don't actively go looking it sends the wrong message should they encounter one by chance, particularly in that age range. It only takes one kid in a class with that attitude (I had that attitude as a kid myself, but thankfully I grew up in NZ lol).
It's kind of a catch22 really, this is why we need better education on the subject, particularly recognition between vens and pythons, but at that age-range the focus needs to be more on 'look but don't touch' rather than *saying* that and then sending a conflicting message by allowing very young children to approach and interact.


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## Tassie97 (May 15, 2011)

i am not being involved


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## bobthefish (May 15, 2011)

MickThow said:


> Feel free to contact Ross Monash DPIPQWE 1300 368 550 There is only one python that is "too nippy" the children did also touch a childrens python a bluetongue and a murry darling I also surgest that your school contact me if there is any issues that they have so they can be addresed. My phone is 0418 170 952. It would allso be nice if you told people of the brochure I give out to everyone that also outlines the important information on what and how to deal with snakes. Thank you Michael Thow


 
I very much appreciate what you are trying to do, but as a parent and teacher I cannot say that it was acceptable to allow kids to handle venomous snakes, even if they were restrained. My wife and I have spoken to the herpetologist at Healesville Sanctuary about this, who agreed unreservedly and stated that under no circumstances is allowing a child from 5-8 to touch a tiger snake acceptable. As a teacher I also know that children are unable to distinguish between "restrained" and "unrestrained." Many, many studies have shown that many kids at this age are unable to make the sort of mental jump between "pet snake" and "wild snake."

The brochure was excellent- accurate and informative. But it's way over the head of your average primary school kid, and a lot of their parents too.

We did intend on contacting you, but obviously you know now. From speaking to other parents I know there is a tremendous amount of shock and anger over this, and I would suggest that there is going to be a real storm.

But at the end of the day both you and the schools were to blame for putting my child at risk. If I had been properly informed of what was being done, I would have NEVER agreed to let her go. That it happened at all shows a definite lack of judgement all around.

But once again, we do support you 100% in educating people and kids about the beauty and fascinating nature of snakes. Just not when it puts my child, or any children, at risk.

As teachers and people with in loco parentis responsibility over students we have to decide whether the potential risks of an activity, even if far-fetched, outweigh the potential benefits, and whether or not the educational goals of the activity could be gained in a less risky manner. Unreservedly my opinion is yes to both considerations.

We have already contacted Ross Monash, on Friday when we were able to make sure that it was in fact a tiger snake involved. We will be sitting down with the principal of the school in question and discussing this, and also forwarding all of our correspondence on the matter to Learning Services and to the risk management division of the Education Department. It is our opinion that this entire event shows a clear inadequacy in the implementation of the Department's risk management program.

That there were at least three schools involved and NO ONE who planned or supervised the events thought that there was anything wrong demonstrates a systemic failure, and a serious one. I for one will be revoking all local excursion permission for my daughter.

It's a pity too, because she absolutely loved the show. But how would her and the rest of the group feel about snakes if she had somehow gotten bitten?

There needs to be a clear code of conduct in Tassie, like the rest of Australia, and especially when dealing with children, common sense needs to prevail.

And Tassie- no I do not have snakes at the moment, or other reptiles. I've been too busy for them. But I have a long history of snake keeping, and my Dad used to be a consultant to the San Diego Zoo's Reptile House.


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## AM Pythons (May 15, 2011)

keep kids inside in front of the play station, dont let them play with wildlife.. they may just learn something or end up just luck us... keeping & liking reptiles.. we dont want that do we....


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## bobthefish (May 15, 2011)

We don't have a play station, but we do have a bookcase full of nature books and a DVD cabinet full of David Attenborough. I have a Masters Degree in Environmental Management, and spent ten years working as a wildlife rehabilitator. My wife is a vet nurse. That sort of statement doesn't apply to us, AM. 

And I'm sure those kids would have built a life-long love of snakes if someone had gotten bitten. Think about it, AM....

And just for the record- it's not the snake handler I'm after. It's the failed system that let this happen!


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## AM Pythons (May 15, 2011)

if your 5-8yo doesnt understand 'dont touch reptiles unless an adult is presant' there isnt much you can do...


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## longqi (May 15, 2011)

If I had known what has come out now about them actually having pythons available, I would not have writen what I did in my first post

Although I have used RBBs in displays I have always and always will use pythons wherever possible
If they thought their pythons were 'nippy' they should not even have contemplated doing a show
To use a tiger instead is definitely a stupid option

PS 
It sounds like Tasmania is finally getting its act together regarding pythons which is about time
For years I begged to take pythons down there and demo them but was always refused
I once actually got verbal permission to bring two male pythons [no females]
But a week before I was booked to go they retracted that in writing
When you do a show anywhere the reaction of Tasmanians to any snake is usually very different to people from other states
So education down there is definitely something that needs encouragement


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## kawasakirider (May 15, 2011)

longqi said:


> When you do a show anywhere the reaction of Tasmanians to any snake is usually very different to people from other states
> So education down there is definitely something that needs encouragement


 
I lived in Tassie for a few years, and all my mates from Tassy that are on my FB friends list see the pics of my snakes and advocate shooting snakes. 

The mentality down there is...... different........ In regards to everything, lol.


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## AM Pythons (May 15, 2011)

well tassie didnt start with the best 'stock' for human production did they..lol.. it was the place were the worst of the worst ppl were sent..


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## bobthefish (May 15, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I lived in Tassie for a few years, and all my mates from Tassy that are on my FB friends list see the pics of my snakes and advocate shooting snakes.
> 
> The mentality down there is...... different........ In regards to everything, lol.


 
This sort of thing wont help that mentality, if it goes wrong. Quite the opposite. And actually, I've found the mentality here far better than in country Victoria. Perhaps it is the absence of brown snakes. Most Tasmanians I've discussed it with are of the "leave it alone" mentality. But there's rednecks in every state.


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

We're not talking about an individual child aged 5 to 8 years, we're talking about a group of 40 of them, all together, and that's where it gets tricky. I have a 7 year old who has been around venomous snakes, has been educated on all sorts of things, knows how to check the pouch of a kangaroo that's been hit by a car/truck, all sorts of things, but I would never let her touch a venomous snake, or one that can give a nasty bite, if there were 40 kids around making noises and making random, fast movements that can startle an animal. IMO it's dangerous having that amount of children around an animal. It's also not fair on the animal to be subjected to the stress of the noise created by a large group of children.


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## bobthefish (May 15, 2011)

Just to let you all know- I have spoken (via email) with the gentleman who ran the show, and expressed my displeasure and point of view. I would like to say that his presentation was excellent, other than the snake touching bit, and that as I have expressed before, he is doing an extremely important service to Tasmania (and its reptiles). My beef is not with the gentleman, but the school system that didn't say that letting children pet a tiger snake without their parent's permission is unacceptable. I do very much hope that these shows continue with ven's on display and pythons to touch.

The failing here is not the demonstrator's, but the state for not establishing adequate guidelines and the schools for not expressing to the demonstrator what they could and couldn't not legally allow to be done. The demonstrator was merely doing his job.


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## snakehandler (May 15, 2011)

Sorry, but as a teacher, scientist and demonstrator I can tell you there are much more effective ways of educating children without giving direct access to a venomous snake.


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## MrFireStorm (May 15, 2011)

Hmmmm....Maybe we should stop all public displays just on the off chance a reptile is having an *off day* and "may" bite someone????


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## shellfisch (May 16, 2011)

As a parent, I would be a whole lot more pi$$ed off if my child was bitten (at a school sanctioned demonstration) by a Tiger snake, as opposed to a Coastal....


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## snakehandler (May 16, 2011)

No definitely not, but responsible and safe handling is required, if head restraint is required then the animal is not safe, by allowing touch and feel of the and feel of the animals helps some people over come fears, so demonstrators in Tassie should be given permission to have pythons and other reptiles to enable this with a much higher degree of safety. I do believe changes are happening slowly, just as they are here in Victoria. 

It only takes a few incidents with venomous snakes at shows to threaten the ability for these shows to exist, remember it us not a right we have, but privilege, if we abuse privileges we loose them!

The risk of bite is not greater with a venomous snake necessarily but the outcome is much more severe....so they need to be handled differently!


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## bobthefish (May 16, 2011)

Toni_n_Daz said:


> Hmmmm....Maybe we should stop all public displays just on the off chance a reptile is having an *off day* and "may" bite someone????



That doesn't really merit a response.


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## MrFireStorm (May 17, 2011)

snakehandler said:


> No definitely not, but responsible and safe handling is required, if head restraint is required then the animal is not safe, by allowing touch and feel of the and feel of the animals helps some people over come fears, so demonstrators in Tassie should be given permission to have pythons and other reptiles to enable this with a much higher degree of safety. I do believe changes are happening slowly, just as they are here in Victoria.
> 
> It only takes a few incidents with venomous snakes at shows to threaten the ability for these shows to exist, remember it us not a right we have, but privilege, if we abuse privileges we loose them!
> 
> The risk of bite is not greater with a venomous snake necessarily but the outcome is much more severe....so they need to be handled differently!


 
Fully agree mate.....hence my thread a while a go about "Free-handling"....but some had no problems with it.



bobthefish said:


> That doesn't really merit a response.


 
My apologies....Wasn't aware that only your opinions, concerns or comments were the only one's that count


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## Waterrat (May 17, 2011)

bobthefish said:


> Just to let you all know- I have spoken (via email) with the gentleman who ran the show, and expressed my displeasure and point of view. I would like to say that his presentation was excellent, other than the snake touching bit, and that as I have expressed before, he is doing an extremely important service to Tasmania (and its reptiles). My beef is not with the gentleman, but the school system that didn't say that letting children pet a tiger snake without their parent's permission is unacceptable. I do very much hope that these shows continue with ven's on display and pythons to touch.
> 
> The failing here is not the demonstrator's, but the state for not establishing adequate guidelines and the schools for not expressing to the demonstrator what they could and couldn't not legally allow to be done. The demonstrator was merely doing his job.


 
Bob, why do you blame the state? They appointed a qualified, experienced, registered reptile demonstrator to do the job and he has done his job as per regulations. Why is it that people always have to find someone to blame even if nothing bad happened? Pardon me for being blunt but rather than blaming someone and spreading it on a forum, wouldn't your time be better spent talking to your child about snakes and the tiger snake in particular? You, as a parent are in the first line of influence on your child. Blaming "the system" for everything seems to be the way to go, that's why the world is where it is.


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## cement (May 17, 2011)

Allowing children from grade 1 and 2 to physically touch elapids is just plain stupid and irresponsible.
Regardless of the outcome, the demonstrator should not have incorporated this part into his show.
Most adults wouldn't take the opportunity to touch them, but kids that young have no idea.
Mine have grown up with snakes but, random kids in a school is a different story and they HAVE to be kept a safe distance at all times during a demo.
The parent here has every right to try and get some rules in place and to let the demonstrator know how he as a parent feels about his shows. In any case, he's not over the top, he just wants the hands on bit removed from the demonstration and I am with him on that.
Better the demonstrator finds out like this, then after a story from the newspaper (if a kid was bitten it would be on every tv channel) and then we would all be ********D.


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## kawasakirider (May 17, 2011)

I can't believe so many people in this thread have such a blasé attitude in regards to this situation.

It was a venomous snake, in a situation that if it went pear shaped, almost certainly would have bitten someone out of fear. A classroom full of children allowed to crowd around a fella holding a tiger snake? *** happens if the handler trips, his hand spasms or anything?

I'm astonished that people have had the hide to knock this bloke for trying to get to the root cause of the issue and make someone accountable. On top of it all, he's not blaming the handler (who in my opinion is a bloody retard) but looking for someone higher up to just get the regulations changed.

These are silly little children in a confined space with an agitated and lethal animal. He has grounds to sue for negligence, at 9 am all the way through 3 pm students enter the care of people acting under loco parentus, they failed.


Wake up.


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## veenarm (May 17, 2011)

He is a professional handler, there is nothing wrong with what *he did.*

As for the school however, maybe it could of been more pro-active to get parents opinion or permission slips prior to touching any of the animals seeing as how schools get cracked down on a lot now.

Every parent will have a different view, If something bad did go wrong at least you had someone who would know exactly what to do!

Pythons can be just as bad if they grab a hold of the kids arm etc... 

It's just as bad as kids walking across the street with out supervision so come on cut the handler some slack - It's his lively hood and he does it for a profession, if you they didn't believe in his credentials he wouldn't of done it

Do you know who made the road outside your house? it could cave in at any moment (mostly due to water but you get the point) but that person isn't there to take responsibility for it now.

In any event this is one of those things that could go on for ages - peoples opinions vary greatly but at the end of the day, its him and the school that are liable and the children/parents the victim if something goes wrong, and it only takes 1 thing to go awfully wrong to have the entire teaching of snakes revoked in classrooms.


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## kawasakirider (May 17, 2011)

He did do something wrong.

He allowed children (not consenting adults) to pat a venomous snake with no regard for the possible outcomes (however remote they may have been).


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## Waterrat (May 17, 2011)

I haven't heard of any case where a child was bitten by a venomous snake during school demonstrations. However, I have heard of lunatics walking into s calss room with a gun .... and you know what. So, do we put security guards into every class room? Which of the two scenarios if more likely to happen? Hopefully none.
Of course there is the big "but what IF" and the regulators ride on this. This worlds is over-regulated to buggary as it is - live you life and have some faith in professionals.


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## kawasakirider (May 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I haven't heard of any case where a child was bitten by a venomous snake during school demonstrations. However, I have heard of lunatics walking into s calss room with a gun .... and you know what. So, do we put security guards into every class room? Which of the two scenarios if more likely to happen? Hopefully none.
> Of course there is the big "but what IF" and the regulators ride on this. This worlds is over-regulated to buggary as it is - live you life and have some faith in professionals.


 
The difference is any idiot can walk into a school with a gun, or even a venomous snake.

The school let this happen.


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## cement (May 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> This worlds is over-regulated to buggary as it is - live you life and have some faith in professionals.



You know what Michael, where kids are concerned, trust and faith in anybody else is difficult. Professionals or not.
Nothing happened, no kid was harmed.
The handler might be the best snake man in the world, and it could have been venomoid, but the parents don't know this.
Snakes and people do not have good relations at the best of times, I have talked about this before in other threads and all this parent wants (from what I read here) is for that part to be illiminated from his show. Nothing more.
I don't want to hear of a case of a kid being bitten at a school show, because the ramifications to elapid keepers and demonstrators country wide would be affected. 
If its ok to do it with a tiger then its ok to do it with a taipan, or do we draw a line there somewhere?


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## Waterrat (May 17, 2011)

Fair enough. The bit I didn't like, was blaming the state. Problems are more easily resolved with out without blaming someone or something. That was my gripe.
Please don't take this personally, but in MO, some, if not many, parents are very good at blaming others, the system, the school, the state ... whatever, for their child's failures and inadequacies.


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## moosenoose (May 17, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Please no RH bashing.



Who is RH?   ......8)


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## Craig2 (May 17, 2011)

I was under the same impression bigguy..
Always what i was lead to believe about tassie


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## veenarm (May 18, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> He did do something wrong.
> 
> He allowed children (not consenting adults) to pat a venomous snake with no regard for the possible outcomes (however remote they may have been).


 
He was employed by the school to do it, He would of had to of told the school what he was doing before it was approved. Therefore it was the schools fault, not his own.
*If however he didn't mention that he was going to do this, then that would I assume be a breach of some law anyway, and yes then he is in the wrong.


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## prettypython (May 19, 2011)

Please forgive me if this question has been answered. If the handler had a nippy python why not restrain the nippy python the same way he restrained the elapid so if crap happened, like it does, their may have only been a need for a tissue insted of an ambulance trip and a hospital stay?


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## MrFireStorm (May 19, 2011)

veenarm said:


> then that would I assume be a breach of some law anyway, and yes then he is in the wrong.



At preseant there is no law or regulation restricting the "touching" of venomous snakes in Tasmania. Restriction 4 of "Permit For Display Of Wildlife" states "that wildlife is not handled by the public".
This DOES NOT include or restrict "touching" of wildlife. It is restricted to only "sole person" handling without the wildlife being under the control of the demonstrator.


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