# Who left the lid of the can of worms?



## herptrader (Mar 6, 2006)

Snakes were often referred to as "worms" in acient and not so ancient times.

There is a semi religious debate that regularly pops up about the ethics of cross breeding. At one end of the spectrum it seems that there are those that only would allow species from the same locality to be bred. At the other end there are those producing designer morphs with the intent of producing beautiful animals without much regard for their ancestry.

To me this debate is quite valuable. What I do not like to see is when a site member has his/her head bitten off because the show the (spectacular) results of their breeding project. The personal attacks do little for the debate of the value of this site.

Please let's have this discussion here rather than in a thread were those that dislike designer morphs seem to be attacking an individual just by voicing their opinion.


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## reptililian (Mar 6, 2006)

Hear hear, HT


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Absolutely right, we all have a valid opinion and no debate should degenerate into name calling and finger pointing.


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## herptrader (Mar 6, 2006)

To my way of thinking there is a place for both types of breeding projects.

It is vitally important that we carfully preserve many species in their original form. If I was to be a lucky recipient of one of the RSP pairs I would be very careful to maintain a stud book and pass the breeding information on to all that ended up with the offspring bred by me and encourage them to also maintain this information through the generations. The same would apply be it a RSP or some inocuous looking gecko.

Even with the greatest care you will never be able to maintain the gene pool in the same way that nature will maintain it. For example in captivity we tend to try and maintain our animals in "good" environments and any evolution that takes place will naturally select animals that do well in this captive environment. The same animals in the wild may be subject to heavy predation as juveniles, live in a harsh and changing climate or relay on features of the landscape that can never be present in a captive husbandry situation. That said I still believe there is value in trying to preserve the gene pool in a captive husbandry situation. There is however no substitute for preserving habitat and protecting it from contaminants (such as darstedly cats and cane toads).

At the other end of the spectrum I can look at an animal that has been cross and line bred to bring out specific characteristics and appreciate its beauty. Some of the animals produced are abosolutely stunning.

Not going to that extreme but just selectively breeding (as many of us tend to do) pairs of animals that appeal to our sense of beauty and end up with a high yellow diamond or a beautifully patterned diamond leaves us with an equally distorted gene pool.... but a range of animals that can make great pets and teach us a lot about what these animals tick.

In this sense the vast majority of the animals available to Australian herpers are already drawn from a quite distorted gene pool - almost by definition. There is not much that can be done about it. To me it is a situation that we need to learn to live with... and make the most of.


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## ihaveherps (Mar 6, 2006)

Herptrader, good idea for a thread, although i think that your terminology may be a bit astray. As far as i understand, the term morph is used when a pure bred animal shows genetically inheritable trait, such as hypo coastals, albino darwins, and the like. Hybrid is a term that is self explanatory. 

ps. I may be a long way off the mark.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

As I said in the earlier thread the term morph is (usually) reserved for a pure animal that exhibits an unusual trait as you say like being hypo or albino or striped. I should add that the use of the word really can cover anything that isn't 'normal'
I am surprised to see someone voted for the top choice given that you can really only do that if you hand pick the animals from the wild. Of course you can just trust a breeder to tell you the truth but they are a dodgy lot. :lol:


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## Dicco (Mar 6, 2006)

Boa, are you telling me a respected breeder can not be trusted? I can understand where Joe average is involved, but there are a few well know and very respected herpers with pure locale lines, some of which they collected themselves. Can these animals not be trusted in your opinion?


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

Ok I will list some negatives,
1. Lines will be muddied - I know there are crosses out there, but it is a vast minority. In a few years though hybrid hets will be everywhere, people will buy not knowing. the percentages will be greatly increased from where they are at now - you cannot deny this.
2. Morphs in the future will always have a question mark as to their authenticity.
3. It is illegal in most states - contraed always by the feeble - but there are only 3 species bullshit - believe what you want here, but at the end of the day you are crossing animals. Im sure the matter will be brought to the attention of NPWS.
4. This 'market' will lead to hatchlings frozen off as bad projects because they are simply ugly.
5. The overseas market has been doing designers for so long they have established traits in design. It will take an absolute min 2 generations to achieve anything other that crossing animals which any clown can do. Go and breed these animals - show us how nice they are - You are basing everything on overseas and what they have produced - but noone here has done anything halfway decent with hybrids - all worth $150 max. and ugly. 

What are the positives again, oh yeah - we want pretty snakes. arent you happy with the vast selection of natural animals available?


Give me some more positives as to why Australian herping should head down this path. What have we got to gain from it? Convince me to start crossing my animals
Ad


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

No it was a joke, hence the :lol: 



Dicco said:


> Boa, are you telling me a respected breeder can not be trusted? I can understand where Joe average is involved, but there are a few well know and very respected herpers with pure locale lines, some of which they collected themselves. Can these animals not be trusted in your opinion?


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

Ok positives.
Variety, individuality, and freedom of rights.

If I could this season I would cross a GTP with a RSP just out of spite to the whingers.
WHY? because I don't like being told by others no greater than myself that it is wrong and I cant. As an average keeper yourself what makes your opinion greater than any other keepers? Who are you to decide whats right or wrong? How can you dictate other peoples choices and tastes? You say all hybrids are ugly yet you fear they will take over the market lmao. I guess your opinion of them being ugly is final & anyone that says otherwise is a goose right? sounds pretty fascious to me.


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## Dicco (Mar 6, 2006)

boa said:


> No it was a joke, hence the :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, excuse my ignorance then


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

I guess it was a sort of in joke between me and friends in Geelong who probably wouldn't have read it anyway but yes it was very much a joke.  



Dicco said:


> Oh, excuse my ignorance then


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## Dicco (Mar 6, 2006)

Oh, I also completely agree with Adams, previous statement.

Variety and individuality? Who said you need to cross for these? Infact, if crossing goes overboard, you'll loose some of the variety and individuality out there.

And for those of you in Queensland(not sure on other states), you'll find that reptiles are considered wildlife, not pets, and it's illegal to produce hybrids and breed mutations, why? Because they are giving us the privelage to keep our wildlife and they don't want us turning reptiles into a commersial product and a money making scheme, they want them to stay our unique wildlife. They aren't overly fussed if someone wants a pretty snake, so evern with freedom of rights, it isn't allowed by the EPA. - I am not stating whether or not these are my views, but this is the general stance EPA has, as they are and Environmental department, not a pet department -


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## KathandStu (Mar 6, 2006)

Sounds like this thread is going to go downhill (ie. flamish) fast....before it does I am going to state that I have no opinion about this as I am fairly unknowlegdable & have no true intrest in breeding pythons. However I do like looking at pretty snakes (whether crosses, local or from overseas) so maybe I do have an opinion but I just don't know it yet!

Kath.


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

> Ok positives.
> Variety, individuality, and freedom of rights.


Of course - great points - but you cant have this and not cross breed?
I have given you the negatives for the reasoning behind not crossing, yes I think there are nicer locality animals than any hybrid I have seen bred in Australia.  Prove me otherwise.
Breeding a gtp to rsp is quite amusing isnt it? You would tear up the money they would be worth in their own right just to spite me? Yep thats what I consider a goose.
Im not dictating - im giving an opinion, one that does not agree with you - try a reasonable arguement as to why we should?
You still havent convinced me.
Ad


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Adam, the whole point is that you don't have to be convinced because you have your opinion, no-one should need to try and change it anymore than others opinions should be changed. Each opinion and view is right for the person who holds that view.
Are you against ANY crossing of any kind ?


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

Ad I am not here to convince you lol.
You may keep and breed whatever you like. Unlike those who seem to think there opinion is all that matters I am open minded and only care about my own doings not dictate what others should be doing. 

As for individuality & variety with purebreds YES no problems at all.
But the fact is there is people out there who want to cross breed. It dosn't matter what reason they have they want to and IMO let them. So long as they arn't hurting my family I couldn't care less. Many people keep cross bred dogs should I as a purebred dog owner crucify these people? Many people use aerosoles which effect the world should I form a mob to attack them?

It dosn't matter what anyones opinion is other than your own (my opinion is right to me and yours is right to you). But why try and press your opinion? everyones opinion varies HENCE I mentioned variety, individuality and freedom of rights.

As for my remark about a GTP x RSP, my point is that by trying to suppress members you will only tempt them to rebel. Yes I am the type to give the finger and do the opposite of what I am told. If that makes me a goose so be it. But I am a goose who lives his own life not a lemming that follows the masses. As they say I will die on my feet before I live on my knees.

EDIT FROM OTHER THREAD:
I have never owned a cross breed and have even considered them mongrels in the past. So I do see both sides of the fence. But the fact is it is and will be happening in the future and fighting over it won't change anything but tempt those (myself included) rebellious types that will "stick the finger up to you". I have no intentions of cross breeding myself as I am happy with any projects I may already have. But if I am ever tempted to purchase a hybrid and start a project I should be able to without copping abuse from the narrow minded. So long as I am honest & not releasing any into the wild why should I be lynched by a mob of "alledgedly" purists? I say alledged because unless you own WC you can never garuntee its locality. With that said how about we stop following every other hobby of descriminating fellow keepers because they have different tastes/opinions/intentions and start keeping an open mind and embrace the fact we can keep reptiles at all.


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## TrueBlue (Mar 6, 2006)

Positive side, WHAT POSITIVE SIDE, I cant see any from here. I think maybe here in oz its more of a penis extention to some as they seem to think that they are doing some thing cool, WRONG.!. IMO they are not enriching our hobby at all but destroying it as we know it. Sure overseas this happens alot with our animals but as has already been said there are very few gene pools to draw on, but here in oz its a different story we have many gene pools to draw on and a few states allow the collection of wild animals to increase these pools even more. This allows local specific and same species breeding to continue with out the need to cross our speices. But it seems this is not good enough for some and they would rather contaminate our gene pools. I really do hope NPWS do stop these fools and revoke their licences and if they are not from here deport the mongrels back to where they came from. We really dont need or want this to happen here like it has overseas belive me. Just stop and look at the big picture what will happen in the end will be horrible.


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

Isnt opinion changing the purpose of debate?
Yes we all have them, some people may just go along with hybrids because they havent seen negatives. Some people may change their view on hybrids.
I have provided negatives - none that have been disclaimed or referred to, so I assume you all agree they are true negatives to cross breeding - but simply dont care. These are the reasons I do care - it is valid discussion, if I can show any herper what effects this may have on our hobby it would be worth the 'whinging'.

You have not provided valid postives to cross breeding. "im an individual" and "cause I want a pretty snake" arent really debatable are they.
Ad


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

Ad in all honesty there is no positives other than "im an individual" and "cause I want a pretty snake" But to me that is reason enough. 

You can point out possibility of negatives all day. Released, escaped blah blah blah.
And these were the reasons I was against hybrids myself. But its happening around us regardless of "debating"

You want a positive? I gave 3. You can debate that they are not reason enough. I can debate that they are. At the end of the day I am going to do whatever I like regardless of what others opinions are and you are going to do whatever you like. My whole point is people rebel and arguing or debating dont help. Educating did, but that seems to be a thing of the past and many people are no longer listening. 

To be honest there is nothing anyone can do about it UNLESS NPWS outlaw it. If that happens great, if it dosn't great also (I couldn't care less anymore who breeds what as long as I am breeding what I want) Keep in mind I am not a cross bred lover myself but I am slowly opening my mind towards it for the simple fact that "if you cant beat em join em". Nothing you or the others say will change minds. Unless it is outlawed & policed properly you may as well get used to it. You can breed your pures and feel right in knowing that you are doing as you feel right.


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## herptrader (Mar 6, 2006)

The term "morph" as I was using it is what they look like. Morphology is defined as (Biol.) "study of the form of animals and plants".

Perhaps in common usage this term has taken on a new and more specific meaning.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

Trueblue,
If you read my posts you will see I do not breed hybrids and do not plan to.
When I said "if you cant beat them then join them" I am referring to me cutting slack to others who do breed them. I am simply saying if someone wants to do something let em go for it. If they stuff up (apparently illegal?) then thats there problem not mine. If someone wants to do drugs you won't see me campaigning outside their dealers house. Why? because it dosn't effect my immediate family. If the dealer was selling to my kids it would be an entire different story. 

All I am saying is you are fighting a losing war. I know I have fought it in the past and now think it aint worth the hassle. Pure lines won't be tainted as I myself will still be breeding pure lines. You have said you will be. Ad has said he will be. And many others will still be retaining locality specific animals. As I said unless NPWS outlaw it we may as well get used to it.


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## herptrader (Mar 6, 2006)

Doesn't the fact that by the end of the first generation of captive bred animals we have already started to affect the genetics have a part to play? As soon as we (play god and) put a pair of animals together we have decided the genetics of the outcomes. With each successive generation of doing the same we get further from wild type specimen. After many generations of selecting, say high yellow jungles, we end up with animals that may look quite different to their wild counterparts and founder stock.

Given that the species distinctiions are decided by man and that carpets for example have few solid boundaries that decide the differences between the (sub) species (I still consider different races to the term sub species) it is hard to pick when when you might be crossing different sub species while we are play god.

Looking at it from a different angle this sort of thing could theoretically happen in the wild. A jungle carpet may end up floating on a log and end up in coastal carpet territory and a pairing may occur and viable offspring result.

I consider the claim that only location specific animals be allowed to be bred together to be a misnomer. While it is a useful project, provided we are setting up the pairings, we are still squewing the gene pool based on those pairings.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

You are quite right, how many of us know exactly where our animals came from ? I mean exactly. How big an area does the Tanami Woma cover ? Who knows for sure their Tanami doesn't have Uluru in it somewhere ?
Look at the poll and you will see that almost 80% are in favour of morphs/crosses/hybrids which speaks volumes for the way things might go right or wrong.


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## TrueBlue (Mar 6, 2006)

JandC,-Yes I agree to a point with what you have said, except eventually most if not all pure animals will be in dought as alot of these hybribs will look very simular to pure animals and poeple wont be able to tell them apart.
I truly belive that it is not to late to stop the on slaught of mongels in our hobby here in oz as there are only a few bad eggs so far. We dont need to produce these mongrel snakes in oz, we are lucky enough to have here a lot of the worlds most sort after and prized reptiles and yet people are intent on muddying the waters for the future, and belive me if left unchecked it will happen, the dought will eventually seep into the most devote locale specific breeders. We have amazing natural herps already lets all keep it that way.
(gee why do some of my posts go missing. Am I really that bad?)


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## ihaveherps (Mar 6, 2006)

Herptrader, I am with you there, it seems the english language doesnt apply to herpetology, and we speak our own language. lol

For the pro hybrid people, IMO the problem that arises if hybrids become common isnt actually with the more professional keepers, but the average Joe Bloe who buys a hybrid breeds it and passes them off as pure linage when he realises that his crossing wasnt well thought out and the offspring arent anything special, thus has difficulty selling them as hybrids, so changes his sales pitch. Or worse still doesnt care and sells them incorrectly labelled. These kinds of senarios are already happening, and is a great threat to diluting pure stock, especially when the un-suspecting buyer who may have been trying to "keep it pure" has bought Hybrid founder stock, and goes on to market his animals to the best of his knowledge (as pure).

Even though i am against hybrids, it will eventaully happen wether we like it or not, but the keepers who choose to go down that path bear the responsibility of doing so with a genuine interest in the long term project, and not for the money. For example we dont need some[[NO SWEARING- REMOVED BY ADMIN]] keeper producing 300 bredli x albino darwin hets, that sort of thought process only comes from someone who was line-bred themselves.

Keep it pure.


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## Greebo (Mar 6, 2006)

C'mon guys (and girls) , it's possible to have a different opinion to someone else without resorting to name calling, vague accusations or simply poking your tongue out at them. I think this thread was travelling nicely and raised interesting points on both sides. I don't want to see it go downhill and end up as another thread that gets locked.
Most of us are grown ups here so lets keep it civil. If you can't make your point without resorting to name calling then you really don't have a point at all.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

Trueblue, I also agree with you somewhat, but I also see a place for hybrids. They may not have a genuine positive reason for being here but they do have some merit to some people. My way of thought says that there is room for both. As long as there is still the genuine conservatory type keepers out there I don't think the pure lines will be effected as much as what is being made out. I agree 100% that some stock will be questionable, but that is already happening at the moment in regards to species and locality. At the end of the day I don't think there will be any difference other than having more species/hybrids to question. The reputable and respect breeders who have the honour of being labelled an honest and reliable dealer will always be trusted when it comes to buying a pure animal from them. Those new keepers who are un-heard of could be selling anything and it is only natural to question them. But as I said this is already happening. Let me ask you something, you have pure animals (I assume you took the word of the breeder if they are not wild caught). Did you purchase these animals from respected keepers with a reputation for quality etc who's you trust? or did you buy from anyone that is selling?

Get my point? the only people who will have problems are those who are buying from un-heard-of's. Unless the un-heard-of can of course proove his stock came from so & so. But this is already the case as it is. Gain respect in your hobby and there is no problems. Also word of mouth is good. If a seller was selling questionable animals others will soon learn about it. Take this chat board for EG: many pics are posted and a few times members have pointed out the posted pic was a hybrid. I am adamant that specific animals can be identified by looks. You may have alot of experience & knowledge but as suggested animals are already subject to question. So the way I see it genuine pure animals will always be either purchased from someone we trust & their word taken for it, or the locality/species questionable regardless if there is hybrids available or not.


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## ihaveherps (Mar 6, 2006)

JandC, i see your point, but when i first looked into reptiles legally 5yrs ago, i actually found it quite difficult to find licenced animals, and to find reputable breeders you have to stumble across a forum to get multiple opinions. First time keepers are going to be like lambs to the slaughter for unscrupulous keepers.


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

One things for sure - Time will tell.
All but one of my animals can be traced to it's location, and she is a very pure form.
Ive relied on breeder trust for 4 of them (im sure no one would doubt the breeder), the majority are wild caught animals (legal).
Maybe my animals will end up worthless - but from what ive seen from a lot of overseas people is that locality is far more important for them these days. It seems they are starting to realize the value of true locality animals.

Just out of interest I found this thread.
http://www.aussiepythons.com/index....rder=asc&sid=97c1058c2634135ac30028698285056e

It will be just as big a laugh looking at this one in a few years Im sure.
Ad


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 6, 2006)

Actually I am glad this subject came up.
I have been against hybrids for years. Only recently I have had an open mind (in as much as going with the flow). I realise that the whole argument of Trueblue and Ad is the reason I was against them in the first place. Why do I now agree keepers should have hybrids if they choose? I honestly don't know other than "why not its there choice". Another part of me wants to see whats produced I guess, I would love to see some extraodinary weird but extremely beautiful creature emerge from a pair of whatevers. I also think the mystery would be a buzz. Waiting to see who produces what next season. 

Am I for or against?
I really do not know anymore. 
A bit of both I think lol
Does that make me a hypocrit? 
I guess in my long winded posts all I was saying is I am not for them as such (don't & more than likely won't breed them) but I am interested in seeing them around (provided pure lines still exist). What will be will be I guess.

Anyway I guess I am not the only one stuck in confusion on this subject.
What are some of the others thoughts?


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## herptrader (Mar 6, 2006)

How did locality specific purists cope anomalies such as albinos?

Would you be against them because they are rarely found in the wild? Despite the expression of this recessive gene they are technically as species and locality pure (assuming they were first found in the wild, Eg the founder stock for the Albino Olive line) as any animal taken from the wild. They are usually line bred to produce more albinos - no polution of the species or locality here either. Using the abino olives as an example they are probably as species and locality pure as possible, but they are all white and look like almost none of their wild relatives.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Albinos are necessarily locality pure, they are species pure but that's all.


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## zulu (Mar 6, 2006)

*re Who*

If i know someone is purposely crossing the poor buggers ile avoid them like the plague,birds is bad enough with galahs x corellas just irresponsible ignorant manipulation by clowns


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## TrueBlue (Mar 6, 2006)

Nothing wrong with them herptrader, there not mongrels. Just a colur morph caused by a faulty gene.
J&C, I do know the origins of almost all my animals, as a number are legally wild caught, and others are sourced from people that have been around long enough to have acsess to wild caught animals and their progeny from before the fauna laws were brought in in the mid 80s. Dont get me wrong Im not a fanatic by a long shot, I will try to breed locale specific were possible but will also breed for colour and pattern as long as it stays within the imediate specices.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

An interesting thing is that 6 people have voted for the top choice but how many people can genuinely say they know where all their animals come from ? I assume it wouldn't be good enough to just have 2 coastals, you would have to have 2 coastals from the same area ? I can understand voting for the same species choice as it still achieves the same result.


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## peterescue (Mar 6, 2006)

Hang on the first albino burmese where of known origin. Just because they happened to turn up in the States one day doesnt mena diddly. They know where they came from.
Spliff the albino olive was wildcaught as was the albino darwin from recollection.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

What post are you replying to Peter ?




peterescue said:


> Hang on the first albino burmese where of known origin. Just because they happened to turn up in the States one day doesnt mena diddly. They know where they came from.
> Spliff the albino olive was wildcaught as was the albino darwin from recollection.


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## Parko (Mar 6, 2006)

The poll is fairly meaningless in that the most popular option is a fairytale option, ''just do not mix the two''. We would all be satisfied with that but as already pointed out it wont happen, evidence of this is in the amount of keepers overseas who have diamonds or jungles of mixed parentage without them realising it. For someone like me it is very hard to see the difference but for someone who really knows their stuff they can see the slight differences. Things get muddied because people dont give an intercourse.


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## pugsly (Mar 6, 2006)

OK, so ive read the whole thread now..

Things standing out are - Ad and True Bule are strickly against 'mongrels'. Why? Because they have no positive value other than aesthetics.. But mainly because they including others are worried we will turn into the states and co and no will be able to get pure bred animals anymore. Or locality animals. 

Well guys if you two are SO against the designer morphs or crosses or hybrids and are going to continue to breed only pure australian local specific snakes, then what are you worried about. You have voiced your opinion so now everyone knows that if it eventuates then the people we see for pure breeds are you guys. Meaning we will actually ALWAYS have them here SURPRISE SURPRISE!

Most herpers I know are not as committed to there reptiles as you guys are, and have no idea about locale specific species or what area there diamond python originated from. The majority dont seem to mind what is in there snake, because its a pet. Its theres they love it for what it is, a snake. Not because its grandparents originated from Wollongong or Gosford. 

I don't by my snakes for where they orginated from. If that information comes as a bonus great. I want a snake that looks good to me. Not to you or anyone else. If I like, Ill buy. You dont like, so dont buy it. Your worried about all this cross breeding but its already going on! we already have bredli/diamonds and jungle/diamonds, intergrades, and who knows what else. If people are after a pure lineage then they can go and see you guys. I think personally you both have some amazing animals and I would love to one day have a collection half as good as either of yours but in that collection im not going to kill myelf if I have a designer morph or cross in there as well.

There are like you said plenty of brilliant Australian locality animals around, as you say TrueBlue you have seen plenty of gorgeous carpets. If they become common like the morphs then you beauty, if not then I dont see why we cant have a bit of both in our collections. 

Anyways this thread is interesting so lets keep it going.


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## ad (Mar 6, 2006)

> Why? Because they have no positive value other than aesthetics..


No - re-read my first thread - it details just some of the negatives to cross breeding.
aesthitics are the only reason to have hybrids. There are a lot of negatives against crossing animals.
Your 'its here already' theory is great if you compare the problems now related to the number of crossbreeds available.
Then multiply the problems by 1000 or so each generation.
Ad


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## ihaveherps (Mar 6, 2006)

Fair enough thats your stand point Pugsly, and if people like Ad and Trueblue are of a minority who actually have pure locality stock how long do you think we can line-breed their stock for? When in a few years i am looking for a tully carpet to spread the genetics a bit of my local specific jungle pair, where am i going to find one? Ad and Trueblue may not have the same locality, they may have Athertons or Palmerstons or Mission Beach or Cape Tribs, which will be of no help to my project, leaving the gene pool extremely small. I know this sounds selfish, but it is just an analogy. 

I find it hard to understand why some people are so easy about the hybrid debate. The main hurdle i find is that people generally get the herp bug, and collect numerous animals, most with the intention to breed at some time. When i look am buying animals i generally look favourable traits as i feel a greater appreciation for an exceptional snake produced by my intelligent pairing, rather than having the dosh to just buy a cracker. EG. I recently acquired a pair of tully jungles both striped and am looking into hopefully producing better striped to background contrast. If this pairing doesnt go to plan i should at least get a clutch of standard tully jungles, which i doubt will be hard to find homes for. On the other hand, if you try your hand at a designer hybrid and it goes well good for you, but if your pairing was a dud, you may find it difficult to find homes, because no-one is going to line up for dud hybrids.

Ps. hybrid fans, you do understand that it is only the minority of hybrids that get pics put up on the net, people dont post pics of duds.


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## pugsly (Mar 6, 2006)

> if you try your hand at a designer hybrid and it goes well good for you, but if your pairing was a dud, you may find it difficult to find homes, because no-one is going to line up for dud hybrids.



I said i would not be doing it mate.


> aesthitics are the only reason to have hybrids.



I 100% agree with you. Im not having a go at you mate, im just stating my own opinion like you did yours. Its all good.

But getting all upset over it aint going to change it, you disagree, sweet, you think its wrong, others think its ok, we all have our own opinion. Whether its right or wrong.


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## ihaveherps (Mar 6, 2006)

Pugsly, sorry for the confusion, but only the first paragraph was in reply to you, thats why i started a new paragraph.


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## pugsly (Mar 6, 2006)

All good, and you make a great point, I dont want to see the gene pool so small either, but i would like to see some jungle jags, or tigers or others here too. Guess ya cant have the best of both world all the time hey.

As ad said time will tell..


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## Parko (Mar 6, 2006)

Pugs, Jags were ''supposedly'' created from pure coastals i believe, not a result of cross breeding. You dont need to cross breed to create sensational looking morphs, just line breed. I'm no sensational morph breeder so am only relaying what i believe to be true by the way.


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## reptililian (Mar 7, 2006)

> aesthitics are the only reason to have hybrids


I'm just curious to know if the term "hybrid vigor" would apply to reptiles, or not. In livestock, the term refers to the fact that with hybrids you are likely to see more resistance to pests and diseases, better food conversion, faster growth rates and better overall robustness and "vigor". 

Just another worm which wriggled through my mind. I thought I might aswell throw it into the fray! :wink:


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## olivehydra (Mar 7, 2006)

reptililian said:


> > aesthitics are the only reason to have hybrids
> 
> 
> I'm just curious to know if the term "hybrid vigor" would apply to reptiles, or not. In livestock, the term refers to the fact that with hybrids you are likely to see more resistance to pests and diseases, better food conversion, faster growth rates and better overall robustness and "vigor".
> ...



What you describe sounds like this way out theory called evolution..... We all know the animals went on the ark in twos for a reason.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 7, 2006)

Just a few questions I find are very important & adequate to this thread.:

With subspecies hybrids, it has been suggested only a few of these hybrids will be beautiful the rest will be "so called ugly".
What are peoples thoughts on these ugly hatchlings?
Will they be culled? Sold as pures? I know they wont be bred from by the original breeders.

Also other hybrids like Carpondros that share totally different husbandry practices between each different species. How should they be kept? Should we start fresh & learn by error? Or not go to the extent of hybridisation that others have?

just a few thoughts that have crossed my mind since re-reading the posts.


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## Retic (Mar 7, 2006)

I think what we need to remember is that we all have valid opinions and as Pugsly says this is an interesting topic and it should continue but it wont continue if we call those with opposing views idiots, fools and clowns. 
There will be a very large number of breeders that will still produce pure animals and I will be one of those. As far as needing positive reasons to justify breeding animals that aren't pure, do we need them ? These animals are 'pets', none of us will be producing snakes to restock wild populations, that wont happen. 
Listen to the views of others but don't ridicule or try to belittle those with opposing views.


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## herptrader (Mar 7, 2006)

My hunch is that it does not apply at all here.

Often hybrids are sterile (eg Mules Horse x Donkey) and as such their energy is not focused on reproduction which is not what is required here.

I suspect the vigor/disease reistance component occurs because it generates an entity that has not evolved in the context of its evironment and as such the diseases and pests have not evolved with it and as such do not exist. This is useful for a field full of a crop in a monoculture but again I cannot see how it might apply here... unless of course we start seeing reptiles as a valuable source or animal protien ;-)



reptililian said:


> > aesthitics are the only reason to have hybrids
> 
> 
> I'm just curious to know if the term "hybrid vigor" would apply to reptiles, or not. In livestock, the term refers to the fact that with hybrids you are likely to see more resistance to pests and diseases, better food conversion, faster growth rates and better overall robustness and "vigor".
> ...


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## herptrader (Mar 7, 2006)

I know that the claim that such genes are "faulty" can be well argued but I question its validity.

There must be (by definition) a value in in the albino gene for it to be so evenly spread across reptile species. (Anyone who has seen the Reptilemania DVD - availble from the Herp Shop, will have been amazed by the abinos on display, Turtles, Croc's all manner of pythons and other serpents etc.) Evolutionary theory suggests that a gene will be present in a population to the extent that it is useful. The benifits of carrying this gene must outweigh the harmful side effects. Often the harmful side effects are only observed when the recessive gene is expressed.

An example of this is the gene for cycle cell anemia in humans. This gene is highly prevalent where the disease malaria is present. Individuals carrying this gene are resistant to malaria. In other populations that have evolved without the threat of malaria this gene is rare.

To me it is more likely that the reason for widespread albinism in reptiles is yet to be understood.



TrueBlue said:


> Nothing wrong with them herptrader, there not mongrels. Just a colur morph caused by a faulty gene.
> J&C, I do know the origins of almost all my animals, as a number are legally wild caught, and others are sourced from people that have been around long enough to have acsess to wild caught animals and their progeny from before the fauna laws were brought in in the mid 80s.



To me this is where you shoot your argument in the foot. As soon as you make the pairings based on your choices and not evolutionary preasures you are no longer dealing with locality specific animals but some genetic project based on what you consider to be apropriate.



TrueBlue said:


> Dont get me wrong Im not a fanatic by a long shot, I will try to breed locale specific were possible but will also breed for colour and pattern as long as it stays within the imediate specices.


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## ad (Mar 7, 2006)

> As far as needing positive reasons to justify breeding animals that aren't pure, do we need them ?


There are definite negatives - do we need them to happen? This is why you are being asked to justify why you should do it. A valid opinion as you call it should have some justification - otherwise would you consider it valid?


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## TrueBlue (Mar 7, 2006)

Sorry herptrader, but I dont agree. There is nothing wrong with breeding the same speices if they are not from the same area as long as they are the same definite specices. True these animals could never be used to restock the wild but they are still speices pure which IMO is fine for the hobby and is as far as a designer snake should go. When speices and sub speices are crossed that have no way of naturally doing this in the wild, this IMO is when the poo will hit the fan, in time it will effect our hobby and in a decade or 2 even the pureist of animals will have a cloud of dought over them once they pass thru a couple of different keepers hands. If the states that now allow legal wild collection stop then the hobby as we know it WILL be in big trouble, I truely belive this as it has already happened over seas.
Whether the albino gene is a good or bad thing it is still a faulty gene that causes it.


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## munkee (Mar 7, 2006)

> I'm just curious to know if the term "hybrid vigor" would apply to reptiles, or not. In livestock, the term refers to the fact that with hybrids you are likely to see more resistance to pests and diseases, better food conversion, faster growth rates and better overall robustness and "vigor".
> 
> Just another worm which wriggled through my mind. I thought I might aswell throw it into the fray!



Reptililian, the hybrid vigor term tends to stem from cattle and livestock where they have already been line bred heavily. The animals from those lines already have on average a reduced vigor due to a large number of generations in linebreeding. The cross is still technically cow with cow (say hereford and fresian) They are still both genetic cows. Like the same with mongrel dogs having less inheritable problems than purebred dogs.

Hehe I am staying out of this one. Interesting to see opinions though.


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## hornet (Mar 7, 2006)

i really have no problem with interbreeding but it would be a crime if that was all that anyone focused on, we need to keep on breeding the species pure aswell so we dont loose them.

John


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## dpeica (Mar 7, 2006)

Wouldn't a breeder have more satisfaction creating 'better' (or whatever breeders are trying to achieve these days) looking animals from pure snakes? I know for sure that I would.
Hybrids are the easy way out in my opinion.

I'd never have some albino het lavender jag super koala intergrade cross hybrid whatever decorating my boxes.
I'm glad that fancy colours don't impress me, i'll stick to real snakes.


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## herptrader (Mar 7, 2006)

The option in the poll that is proving most popular is to me an achievable compromise that acknowleges reality.... and is an achievable option. (Not a fairytale option as suggested.)

Locality specific breeding projects for conservation and other reasons are great and to be encouraged. Given the options (ie the correct founder stock) I would love to set one up, keeping detailed records, collaborating with others and publishing data.

Other breeding projects (for what ever reason including aesthetics, temprament etc.) also, IMHO have their place and are an unavoidable reality once we start doing the pairings.

As soon as we stiop leaving it to nature to do not only the pairings but also determine which animals survive to reproduce again we have lost something that is only really present in the wild gene pool. The only real way to preserve the wild gene pool is to preserve habitat!



Parko said:


> The poll is fairly meaningless in that the most popular option is a fairytale option, ''just do not mix the two''. We would all be satisfied with that but as already pointed out it wont happen, evidence of this is in the amount of keepers overseas who have diamonds or jungles of mixed parentage without them realising it. For someone like me it is very hard to see the difference but for someone who really knows their stuff they can see the slight differences. Things get muddied because people dont give an intercourse.



p.s. I studied poll and survey design as part of an undergraduate degree. Getting the mix of options right is an impossibly difficult task. I don't think I have ever seen a really good set of poll options in an internet (or news media either) poll... and that goes for this one also.


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## craig.a.c (Mar 7, 2006)

I think that it is unhealthy for the snakes to be cross bred. For example the bredli is from a very warm, dry habitat, and a jungle is from a wetter, colour habitat. To cross bred these two goegraphicly different species together would be unhealthy for the hatchlings. IMO.


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## Retic (Mar 7, 2006)

You are quite right Herptrader and predictably the most popular option is a mix of the 2 views we have seen expressed here. I love pure animals but my intention is to linebreed to produce 'better' pure animals. Of course linebreeding really goes against nature because although natural selection weeds out weaker animals and allows stronger animals to flourish it has nothing to do with nice colours, stripes, being hypo or whatever. It isn't just cross breeding that goes against nature.


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## Parko (Mar 7, 2006)

There is really no point to debate is there, nobody ever changes their opinion.


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## steve6610 (Mar 7, 2006)

> When speices and sub speices are crossed that have no way of naturally doing this in the wild,



hi rob,
what you have said above is very interesting, the question i've asked lots of time to breeders who don't think we should bred hybreds is, " if you breed a b&w W.A. bhp to a qld bhp is it a hybred/ mongrel/cross or just a bhp?" these 2 snakes would as you said above never breed in the wild, but if i advertised the hatchlings as bhp's what would you and ad and a few others say, i really would like you both to answer, this is where i'm confused, 

and one other thing i'd like to say, it's ok for guys like you and ad to get on here and tell us about how we should only breed local snakes together to keep it pure, i'd like you both to tell me how you got them in the first place, where did they come from, who did you buy them from, and i'm not talking about W.A. reptiles because we all know you have a gold card with dave and get the best wild caught reptiles from him, i'm talking about your local pure qld and other state animals, how do i buy them? and how do i really know i'm not being ripped off again, 

and also why haven't you ever answered the question about your gtp's, everybody knows that most of these are crossed bred, unless you have wild caught them youself which we all know isn't allowed, 

i'm not having a go at you or ad, i read a lot of your's and ad's post and think you both know lots about reptile keeping and i've learnt heaps from reading your posts, but i REALLY would like some truthful answers with out all the soapbox antic's

cheers steve.............


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## ad (Mar 7, 2006)

Hey Steve,
I cant see the value in crossing known locales of bhps. Wa's and Easterns are sooo different and why? Relative partners are easy enough to find for both species - there is no real need to.
All my non-wa reptiles have come from reputable breeders like Simon Stone, Bob Withey, or from people where I know there lineage details eg. Rob and Tremain.
GTP's are like overseas breeders - we dont have the gene pool to pick and choose. Sad but true. If that is all that is available you arent left with a choice.
Cheers
Ad


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## steve6610 (Mar 7, 2006)

> I think that it is unhealthy for the snakes to be cross bred. For example the bredli is from a very warm, dry habitat, and a jungle is from a wetter, colour habitat. To cross bred these two goegraphicly different species together would be unhealthy for the hatchlings. IMO.



good point craig, but what about the natural intergrades, diamonds and coastals have different needs and they do ok in the wild and in captivity. i won't own diamonds as the weather conditions don't suit them where i live, but i own a intergrade and she does well, 

cheers,
steve...........


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## Moreliaman (Mar 7, 2006)

herptrader said:


> To my way of thinking there is a place for both types of breeding projects.



Its what happens in the reptile world outside australia, so no reason why it cant work inside, all you have to do now is change the law !


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## zard (Mar 7, 2006)

i dont see why anyone would want to ruin a perfectly good animal by cross breeding. Personally i abhor the idea.


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## steve6610 (Mar 7, 2006)

> I cant see the value in crossing known locales of bhps. Wa's and Easterns are sooo different and why? Relative partners are easy enough to find for both species - there is no real need to.



but you didn't answer my question, WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY ARE, HYBRED/CROSS OR JUST A BHP, 
i know somebody why bought a pair of w.a. bhp's but they turned out the same sex, so he couldn't afford to buy more, so they were bred with his qld bhp's, now because of a so called top breeder ripping my mate off he bred them so as not to waist them, so we come back to my question, from your posts , what do you think they are? 




> GTP's are like overseas breeders - we dont have the gene pool to pick and choose. Sad but true. If that is all that is available you arent left with a choice.



this is my point, it's ok for you to own them or think it's ok to bred them because thats all you can get, but if your a true purest no matter how much money you can make from them you should consider them the same as a diamond/ jungle cross, A MONGREL. in your words, 

now you have shown how silly your reasons are for not wanting to have people cross breed, at least keep honest to your beliefs, 
if trueblue and others can bred gtp's, then why can't i bred jungle/diamonds or any other crosses i want to, 

i have taken so much from certain members about my intergrade female that i'm really getting sick of hearing it, 
if they were worth 10grand each maybe it would be ok? 

cheers,
steve........


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## ad (Mar 7, 2006)

Steve,
Although they are still bhps they are vastly different in colour/pattern and size. I would think people spending $2k a pair and upwards would want animals of pure locale. How much did he sell them for?
This is the same arguement as the three species of carpets - blind freddy can see the difference between them without requiring dna.
Rob could have bred that bumblebee over an eastern last season and didn't. Should give you an indication of his resolve.
Not every line of gtp is a hybrid, as it is such a small gene pool, it is a case of having what is available.
My 'silly reasons' are detailed in my first post.
The main one being muddy waters - buying a gtp people know the waters are muddy and there arent true aussies available.
You wont get dudded because you know buying one already that you arent getting a pure aussie.
That is the sad state of gtp in this country and it is totally different to the more common species people intend to cross.

Steve, You are only a 'fan' of hybrids because you bred them in error and recieved so much flak that you have your back up about it. if you are a true fan of hybrids you will continue to breed them as you have - did you notice they werent valued as highly as your coastals? Wouldnt you rather breed pure Tully jungles worth $400-$800 and produce nicer animals? What is your next major crossing project?
Ad


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## steve6610 (Mar 7, 2006)

lol, don't think they ended up breeding, haven't checked, but thats not my point, he did pay 2k for a pair of males, 

and just so your not confused, i sold my hybreds for $130.00 each, i sold my normal coastals for $130.00 each, and also these were sold as unfeeding, that was another reason for selling them cheaper, i sold more hybreds then normal coastals, i only have 2 hybreds left from 16, i have 8 normal coastals left from 14, you tell me, the other 26 coastals i bred were sold in a bulk deal to a reptile dealer but i won't say how much as thats between me and the dealer, 
so you tell me again about having to sell my hybreds cheap to get rid of them, i put the same price on ALL my hatchlings as i'm not greedy like some other breeders, and EVERYBODY knew what the hatchlings were, and i sold 14 hybreds to 6 normal coastals, now what were you saying again, 
as for getting my back up because i bred hybreds this year and coped flack for it, i've been getting flack for over a year now about my intergrade female, because so called experts don't think they are a true breed, 
and also lets add that i bred a coastal male with a intergrade female that is on my licence as a coastal and i was under no pressure to tell anybody what they were apart from a "coastal" but i was honest, 
and please don't comment on if i'm a true fan or not, you have no idea what i like, and it really doesn't matter if i breed them or not, if i don't bred them it will only be because it's not aloud in qld. not because i don't want to or if i don't want to get any more flack, and also just so you know how many people hate them, i have been asked to breed them again this year, 

how can you be a true fan of pure breeds when you openly say it's ok to breed mongrel gtp's, just because it's all you can get, thats a cope out, either your for pure snake or your not, i'm for both, and openly say so, 

and yes i'm hoping to breed my tully jungles next year, but i might sell them for $300.00, does that make them no good because i sell them cheap, 

my next crossing project is already on the way, i'm crossing 2 w.a. patternless children females with a mt isa patterned children male, 

cheers,
steve.........


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## Retic (Mar 7, 2006)

I am still waiting for one of the 10 people who voted for the first option to tell me how they know that ALL their animals are absolutely pure ? I can certainly understand people wanting to keep breeding withi the same species but the vast majority of people don't have access to locality animals.
The ONLY way to have definite locality pure animals is to have wild caught and to have taken them yourself.


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## ad (Mar 7, 2006)

Lol - your griviences with your intergrade are the exact reason - cant you see that? You want everyone else to buy 'muddy animals' like that? You say its pure - people imply otherwise - because if any market is an indication it is the intergrade market. You think everyone should have this bestowed upon them? Just because you have?

Selling your jungles for $300 is great for you - cheap jungles implies poor lineage - you can buy jungles for $250 - people pay $800 for good animals. You will simply be doing your animals an injustice. And why? to spite me? lol - sell em for $50 then I can get real indignant at the thought. lol
Ad


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## munkee (Mar 7, 2006)

Aren't the Anteresia sub species waters like pea soup for the majority of captive animals? They only became classified as sub species after the end of wild collection in many states didn't they? I'm not 100% sure of the dates but the events must have fairly close close together weren't they? 
Lol Steve I bought a BHP trio and now you have me nervous!


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## Tristis (Mar 7, 2006)

steve why do you want to cross 2 WA chldrens with a Mt isa it makes no sence. there is a diffrents between WA animals and QLD animals, at a quick glance they look the same. have a close look at them look at there crown scales (big scales on there head) loreal scale (scale inbetween the scale that touches the eye and the scale that touches the nose). there will be a diffrence. my WA black headeds have diffrent scale on there crown than those from QLD and those from NT they are all diffrent. My WA womas have 1 loreal scale wile my NT have 2. all the pure WA bhp i have seen have the same crown scales, this goes for QLDs and NTs.

Hybreds (manly carpet x diamonds) are bought buy people as a first snake because they are cheap and grow up to look attractive (to some) more so than a childens, water, olive, ect that are dull. 
for most of us reptiles are addictive you start with one and end up getting another, then you want to try and breed them so you pick your first snake (diamond x carpet) as its old enough and big enough, then what happens people buy a adult carpet or dimond because there cheap and why have 2 snakes the same if you have limited space. they breed them and the same thing keeps getting repeated.
in the US they breed diamonds with jungles to try and stop diamond syndrom and there is a very limited blood lines avalible. this may haved worked but there are very little pure diamonds in the state anymore. so why would you cross a diamond and a carpet in oz?


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## TrueBlue (Mar 7, 2006)

Steve,- you obviously have not read my posts propally, as I have explained where most of my animals have come from.
No, I dont and would not cross WA bhp with a QLD as they are to different and are more of a sub-speices.
As for my GTPs I have always stated exactly where they orginated from no secret there so I dont know what your on about there mate. They are known to be OZ x southern Paupa New Guinea which geneticly are the same specices so not mongels at all, maybe not locale specific but still specices specific.
And I might add they are legal with QLD NPWS hence the international licence they made me get.


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## KathandStu (Mar 7, 2006)

> Tristis said: Hybreds (manly carpet x diamonds) are bought buy people as a first snake because they are cheap and grow up to look attractive (to some) more so than a childens, water, olive, ect that are dull.



Yup, the cheapness, eventual size & attractivness (to us) is why we bought 'Zar. Of course we have no intention of breeding with him (or at all).

My question to everyone is, is it really so terrible for people (like us) who just want a pet, to buy (& therefore encourage the breeding of) Inergrades/hybrids/whatever the hezack you want to call them?

We, like Steve, copped a fair bit of flack for getting a hybrid & I would be interested in finding out why some people feel as though they have to verbally stomp on people who do buy a *completely legal* python? Especially if you do not know for certain they are going to breed with them?

I'm trying not to be inflammitory about this, I would just like to understand. Is it some sort of convoluted moral high-ground or is it elitism or is it something else? I know it happens in other animal groups (dog breeders are notorious for it), Helle! It probably happens with rabid horticulturists too. I guess I just wish it didn't have to happen here.  

Sorry if it's a bit off-topic....

Kath


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## Parko (Mar 7, 2006)

Everytime i read this thread i am coming more and more to the realization that internet forums are really just for a good time and purchasing/selling. People can have all the questions they have put forward in their argument answered and still wont change their opinion. Ad and True blue you can explain all the reasons why hybridising is bad over and over and then one more person will just come in and say ''why shouldn't i buy a hybrid? Why shouldn't i hybridise pythons? I'll do whatever i want to do''


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## herptrader (Mar 7, 2006)

KathandStu said:


> My question to everyone is, is it really so terrible for people (like us) who just want a pet, to buy (& therefore encourage the breeding of) Inergrades/hybrids/whatever the hezack you want to call them?



Of course not. They make great pets and that suits your needs. You will not be claiming that it is locality or species pure.

Somebody mentioned Childreni. In the early days the so called "Pet Shop Childreni" were commonly bred between any of the sub species of childreni. These days you can still get locality specific Stimson's, Maculosa's and Children's but many of those availble currently are descendants of the Pet Shop Childreni. However, expect to pay a small premium for animals with known liniage and founder stock location information.


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## KathandStu (Mar 7, 2006)

> Of course not. They make great pets and that suits your needs. You will not be claiming that it is locality or species pure.



*Herptrader:* Nope. Not going to be claiming anything other than 'Zar is the cutest little python I have ever had the fortune of owning.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Mar 7, 2006)

No one has answered my questions 

I am very interested to hear thoughts on Carpondro's or other hybrids between 2 totally different species. Seen as we wouldn't know their husbandry details. Would they need high humidty? or an average level? Should we learn by trial & error just like in the beginning (when diamonds were hard to keep & majority of pythons were hard to breed)? Or should we just not participate in hybrids to the extent other countries have and keep it between sub-species only?

Also I am would like to hear what people think will happen to "ugly" hybrids?
Do you think they will be culled? Sold as pures? Sold honestly but cheaply as pets because they do not show the traits the breeder wanted? or other options?


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## Retic (Mar 7, 2006)

Well there are a few questions there and all I can give is opinions. 
Carpondros, I love them but I don't think I will breed any in the future unless attitudes change. As far as husbandry they seem to favour a carpet type environment with maybe slightly higher humidity depending on who you listen to. Whether it should be restricted to sub species or different species is down to the individual and isn't my place to judge others.
I can't imagine the 'ugly' hybrids will be culled, I have seen 100's of 'ugly' pure snakes sold so I would imagine there would be no trouble finding a market for them. Definitely not sold as pures, just as now it would be down to the seller to honest and the buyer to beware.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 7, 2006)

So glad I can join! As for morphs, I love them. As for line breeding pure locale types I agree with herp trader. No natural selection just Human selection. In theory these animals are not natural. The pretty ones are the extremes of colour that these animals genetics can put together. I also dont see any point in randomly crossing animals with no idea of what i am doing. A lot of people are starting to get worried about the morph scene as they have lots to lose when the interest in these pretty and different looking animals start to pick up. A few breeders dont get along well, so they could not obtain some of the morphs that were available. This means they will miss out in years to come. As for the jab at some members being deported for not being Aussie, Trueblue as far as I know you are also not from around here!


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## olivehydra (Mar 7, 2006)

Everyone playing nice in the sandpit?


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## herptrader (Mar 7, 2006)

JandC_Reptiles said:


> No one has answered my questions
> Also I am would like to hear what people think will happen to "ugly" hybrids?
> Do you think they will be culled? Sold as pures? Sold honestly but cheaply as pets because they do not show the traits the breeder wanted? or other options?



I will have a go at this one.

My experience with "ugly" or "imperfect animals" is that if they are otherwise healthy and eating well that they get sold but at a much reduced amount.

One of our Olives we bought for $100 because she had a 360 degree bend in her tail and she was great. The tail eventually got amputated at the bend but apart from that she was your typical gental giant olive. She got sold on again a while ago as an adult and the new owners are similarly happy with her.

I also bred a children's python with a strange bump in the tail. I sold her for $80. She made a great pet for the family that bought her.

More closely related to the topic I have heard of possible hets for an trait being sold at the normal rate for a normal.

Basically the market determines price and healthy animals will find a good home given the chance.


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## chameleon (Mar 7, 2006)

i would like to see a dark with high yellow water python X with an even black/yellow
jungle carpet python.
i think the end result would be that of a nice snake.


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## Rennie (Mar 7, 2006)

KathandStu said:


> We, like Steve, copped a fair bit of flack for getting a hybrid & I would be interested in finding out why some people feel as though they have to verbally stomp on people who do buy a completely legal python?



Hey, I copped flack for admitting that I bought my first childreni from a guy at Kellyville Pets because its illegal to buy them in shops in NSW, but I didn't even use the internet back then and had no time for a herp society (worked too much, but I will join this year when fees are due), so I didn't know anywhere else to get them. If I had access to one, I would've happily done the same as you and bought an intergrade/hybrid or whatever I could get, now that I'm much better educated I wouldn't touch one personally but I like to look at them, still see the appeal to some people and wouldn't verbally abuse someone for keeping one, as long as its happy and healthy, its a nice looking animal and makes its owner happy.

On the subject of locality specific breeding, I've never been told where one single animal came from, most of my pythons I can find out the locale (bought off big, well known breeders) but I have lost the phone numbers of the guys I got my first 2 childreni's off, and as has been pointed out, they may already be "crosses" of different locales if their ancestors were in captivity before we knew there was a difference between the species, but this isn't going to stop me from breeding them, I will just be honest and tell people I have no idea as to their locality.

Just my 2 bob's worth


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## rockman (Mar 7, 2006)

olivehdyra , where was it said about people being deported , i must have missed that or did you delete that post . just my opinion , for what its worth , why is it when someone does not agree with what you say , you come on strong with the moderator stance . Anyway True Blue can't help being a kiwi , sorry aussie , i have seen his papers , he is as real an aussie as you and me . :lol:


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## olivehydra (Mar 7, 2006)

rockman said:


> olivehdyra , where was it said about people being deported , i must have missed that or did you delete that post . just my opinion , for what its worth , why is it when someone does not agree with what you say , you come on strong with the moderator stance . Anyway True Blue can't help being a kiwi , sorry aussie , i have seen his papers , he is as real an aussie as you and me . :lol:



Rockman, read the posts on page two, and you will find what you are looking for. If you read my posts you will find I was warning against personal attacks on members, (in defence of TB, actually). As to why I "come on strong with the moderator stance"- it is to enforce the forum rules. I dislike everbody equally, so I dont play favourites. If you wish to discuss things further please take it off thread and pm me.


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## steve6610 (Mar 7, 2006)

to ad and rob,
i'm not going to add any more to this debate as i don't see any reason for me to, 

but ad don't attack me or my snakes until you know me, all i did was ask you questions as to why you said things, and it's my buisness how much i sell my reptiles for, just because somebody sells something cheap doesn't mean they are no good, 

and rob at least you gave me a sort of answer, the thing i was pointing out about your gtp's was that you know they are "in ads words,muddy" but you still breed them, 




> there is a diffrents between WA animals and QLD animals, at a quick glance they look the same. have a close look at them look at there crown scales (big scales on there head) loreal scale (scale inbetween the scale that touches the eye and the scale that touches the nose). there will be a diffrence. my WA black headeds have diffrent scale on there crown than those from QLD and those from NT they are all diffrent. My WA womas have 1 loreal scale wile my NT have 2. all the pure WA bhp i have seen have the same crown scales, this goes for QLDs and NTs.



thank you very much Tristis , at last somebody that has answered my question about breeding w.a. snakes with qld snakes, after reading your post i'll have to rethink my plans, and the only reason was the fact that the male i have ordered for them hasn't been born yet, lol, 

now i'm getting my pop corn and beer to watch what else gets said, 

cheers,
steve......


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## rockman (Mar 7, 2006)

olivehydra , i take back what i said about the deported bit , it was soo farr back in this discussion , sorry , :roll:


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 7, 2006)

As the owner of a hybrid I would also like to add my 2 cents worth. I personally dont like them. Go on, kill me for having one. Well, I got it long ago before there were herp licences and I prefered a captive bred snake to stealing one from the wild. So there.

Its just that I now have a "wildlife" licence that lets me keep "australian native wildlife". Not a pet licence. I think that we have a priviledge in being able to keep our wildlife. I was 34 before I could legally do this!!!

In the future I guess herp licences will go like bird ones and lots of them will be taken off licence and lots of different types will be around that clearly aren't natural wildlife - pearl quarrions, blue princess, harlequin budgies etc.

I have no problem with people who keep hybrids as pets but lets try and stop it there. But I won't berate anyone that does decide to breed them so long as they don't destroy the hatchlings fro being ugly.

Oh, and Marauke GTP's according to the Complete Chondro are found both in southern PNG and North Queensland. Same snake apparently. So you'd be pretty hard pressed to tell them apart. Like Australians and Kiwi's I guess.

and one more, Personally, I like controversial threads. They keep interest in this site. By all means show great passion in what you think. But please attack the issue, not the man. Plus remember we don't have parliamentary privilege in here.


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## instar (Mar 7, 2006)

Its going to happen anyway. Be part of a core population of breeders who propagate originals. Our originals deserve to stay original! , but I have nothing against cb purple spotted, super albino, het for hypo, parthenogenic, shapeshifting diamond intergrade cross!
As long as they're cheap!


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## junglemad (Mar 7, 2006)

hybrid = mistake
nice hybrid = a fluke


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## BROWNS (Mar 8, 2006)

> Oh, and Marauke GTP's according to the Complete Chondro are found both in southern PNG and North Queensland. Same snake apparently. So you'd be pretty hard pressed to tell them apart. Like Australians and Kiwi's I guess.



I think you will find that they are very easy to tell apart and if you have seen pics of pure Aussie chondros compared to Southern PNG or the so called Merauke race they are still different to look at and you only need to compare a pic of one of TrueBlues greens which have blues and black spots etc etc not the traits found in pure Aussie greens which vary a bit but none have high amounts of blue nor do they throw red offspring.They are Deemed Australian as dna is very much the same but the morphological differences are very different.

Breeding or line breeding you are already breeding designer snakes selecting the bestlooking animal to breed with another for best results whereas in the wild i highly doubt a hot looking jungle would care if the female he came across was dog ugly he'd still breed with her which is keeping things pure and natural.

Not having a go but Steves intergrade is not a hybrid it is a true intergrade which he bred with a coastal and made no secret of it and as long as people are honest and advertise their animals as exactly what they are i see nothing wrong with it.It's not as if they or anyone elses animals are being bred to be released into the wild ,they are bred for us hobyists who all have different opinioions and jsut because a few purists think we should only breed pure animals with each other doesn't mean others have o foloow that and as has been said and can be easily seen there is a place for both in the hobby.TrueBlue your hypo carpets which have been and you will continue to line breed is breeding designer snakes for best colour and pattern and although they may originate from pure locality animals or just pure coastals etc doesn't really mean much as the animals you describe your breeding and will breed from this line won't be like those found in the wild the same as the deemed Aussie greens many have and justify keeping and breeding them even though fuly knowing they are not pure Aussies bred to each other but from 2 totally different gene pools which have very different traits wether the 2 different lines in this line came from an area once joined many thousands of years ago they both come from completely different areas and if wanting to stick to being purists and breed greens therefore one would assume you would only breed Iron Range animals together but seeing as there are none available and you want to stick to purity wouldn't it be best not to breed them at all as everyone knows the waters are muddy in that department and just because they are the only legal line available as they are "deemed" Aussie but half the original parentage is PNG they are not pure and look nothing like pure Aussie greens.

We are nearly all playing god by selecting the best looking animals to breed with each other and therefore basically breeding designer snakes be it jungles,hypo carpets etc for certain traits which doesn't happen in the wild.

Ad you certainly have changed your views on purists and crossbreeding compared to your views on the topic in the past you were all for it and te same as many telling people how much things would change with albinocarpets coming on the seen and the different antaresia morphs that were to make for great breeding projects for new morphs.Then there's the new morphs from pure animals yes but again not found in the wild but a new not seen before morph which will be more and more selectively bred and line bred over time to get the best looking animals to fetch the best loking price.Selling Tully jungles for $300 isn't doing an injustice to the animals ,they are still pure Tully or locality animals but that doesn't mean they'll be top looking animals and jsut because an animal has $800 on it doesn't automatically mean it is a superb outstanding specimen it could end up as ordinary and washed out as any $200 jungle which could also produce animals of top quality worth every bit of $800.

We all have our opinions and are entitled to them and i have to agree it's funny with all the purist stuff going on but because all that's available in GTP's are cross bred but legaly deemed Aussie animals makes it justifiable to bred and make good money from them however if a true purist one would aim to breed only Iron Range specimens which aren't and haven't been available for some time so in theory sticking to purist standards people with these should get rid of them and not muddy the waters anymore as they are not pure Aussies,these will also be bred with the many other non Aussie and exotic lines of greens around which people on forums like this one own.

If there are so many die hard purists around there shouldn't be a problem getting hold of pure animals for those who only want pure and locality animals but as Steve asked,where does he get all these animals from if he wants them and the purists don't breed those strains or localities?I also agree with the QLD X NT BHP's etc,are you against these as i bet more than half the bhp's around are crosses of localities but at the end of the day still bhp's the same as a Tully jungle crossed with a Palmerston,still pure cheynei and species specific.The caramel albino childrens i'm sure will be used in breeding projects for new morphs along with the now t- albino macs and other new morphs of the childrens family such as the pieballed Stimmy and platinum blondes etc etc which wil end up being bred to WA stimmies by those in search of breeding new morphs.Would it be wrong to breed a Highland black and white jungle with a lowland coastal black and white jungle?Both are proper black and whites and cheynei just different localities?I know i would keep them local specific but there are others out there wanting them only to cross with albinos and the like and don't hold or keep in mindthe importance of such a limited gene pool which in my eyes must be preserved but there is a place for both and as you have said in the past ad as have many others things will change and are right now wether people like it or not,i just can't work out why all of a sudden the huge changeand stance against crossbreeding and the whole purist thingwhen there was a time you were all for it??



> hybrid = mistake
> nice hybrid = a fluke


Why is a hybrid a mistake and why is a nice one a fluke?There are many many stunning hybrids i've seen and would love to own along with morphs and all the multi generation line bred jungles around which are man made designer snakes wether you like it or not and you most likely own some yourself.Why all the fuss?as long as people who have crosses and sell them advertise them as such which happens all the time just visut the HERP TRADER every week and other classifieds sites and you'll see how many hybrids are openly being sold,8if you don't like them simple don't buy them and get the pure animals from the purist breeders who i'm sure don't have all 100% pure locality animals they can guarantee,again unless they caught them themselves.

The whole hybrid,intergade purist thing gets taken a bit too far if you ask me and opinions of others don't need to be rammed down other peoples throats just because certain people think that is the way it should be and i think the results of the poll speak for themselves....I love em all!!


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## Stevo (Mar 8, 2006)

Dicco said:


> Oh, I also completely agree with Adams, previous statement.
> 
> And for those of you in Queensland(not sure on other states), you'll find that reptiles are considered wildlife, not pets, and it's illegal to produce hybrids and breed mutations, why? Because they are giving us the privelage to keep our wildlife and they don't want us turning reptiles into a commersial product and a money making scheme, they want them to stay our unique wildlife. They aren't overly fussed if someone wants a pretty snake, so evern with freedom of rights, it isn't allowed by the EPA. - I am not stating whether or not these are my views, but this is the general stance EPA has, as they are and Environmental department, not a pet department -



Does this mean that it is illegal to breed albino olives or darwins in Qld???????


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## Stevo (Mar 8, 2006)

Quote:
p.s. I studied poll and survey design as part of an undergraduate degree. Getting the mix of options right is an impossibly difficult task. I don't think I have ever seen a really good set of poll options in an internet (or news media either) poll... and that goes for this one also.


Now I understand why sometimes you get "poll happy" Daavid :lol: 
I think Sdajii also started that course but got lost mid term and ended up studying "How to genetically modify (magic) mushrooms"


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## herptrader (Mar 8, 2006)

rockman said:


> olivehydra , i take back what i said about the deported bit , it was soo farr back in this discussion , sorry , :roll:



Your real name is not John Howard by any chance??? :twisted:


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## pugsly (Mar 8, 2006)

Well said Browny boy, couldnt agree more.

Still has been an interesting thread and Im sure lots of new comers have read this and learnt something.


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## TrueBlue (Mar 8, 2006)

Ha ha ha the plot thickins,
MH,- oops did I hit a nerve there. If you read the post propally you will see that I wrote that if non-aussies are intent on breaking the laws and breeding mongerls here then yes revoke their licences and deport them, why do we have to have our hobby destroyed for the future because it is common place over seas and people like you think its cool. THAT IS A JOKE.!!
Browns,- geneticly and morpologicaly the southern png and oz gtps are the same its only the colour that differs.
so they are the same specices not mongels at all.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 8, 2006)

Hold on! Is that really you Browns? I cant believe this, I agree fully with all you said? I do think these debates do go a bit far. We wont really know what is going to happen with the breeding of morphs and line specific animals until it happens. All I like to go by is trends world wide and it has happened in all countries where people can keep snakes. Both trends are still going strong. I remember selling boas for about $50 in the UK. These snakes had no history of where they came from, although an animal from Guyana or Suriname with a history would cost ten times that much. You can buy cheap and nasty albino boas too for very little these days but locale specific albinos still demand high prices. I had a conversation with Doc Rock at one stage and he mentioned that he saw the whole locale specific breeding phenomena happening overseas and then brought it back over to Australia and implemented it in his business. So this has been going on for years overseas. Also remember that not every country has a total ban on imports and exports. If import and export is controlled as with zoos, pure locale animals can still be sourced. And very few zoos can hold on to all the offspring of these animals. they usually go to private facilities then. So there are always loop holes to source locale specific animals. I have recently seen an add on another forum for Murray Darlings, they are being imported from the UK into America for the first time ever. They are commanding a $6000 price tag each. So how do they know these are pure animals? Only they would know. Think I got a bit sidetracked there for a moment. So my point is that there is a market for both types of animals. Locale specific animals should always be available to source through the right channels. On the other hand I think designer snakes will always be more of a big deal as a lot of work goes into these snakes and it shows of the skills of a breeder. And again Browns, well said!


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## Retic (Mar 8, 2006)

To answer a question from awhile back it is actually illegal to breed an animal for a specific trait so breeding albinos is actually illegal in Queensland so I hope you didn't burn all your bridges in Un Zud Rob :lol: 
Very well said on all points Browns, there is a tremendous amount of hypocrisy in our hobby and I think rather become splintered and fragmented we would be better advised to stick together for the good of the hobby long term.


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## zulu (Mar 8, 2006)

*re Who*

Overseas most breeders would have tryed to do their best with limited bloodlines,in australia you would imagine most could at least stick to known subspecies,not allot to ask,but i know theres many that cant recognize the difference.Its these mostly newcomers to the hobby that the more experienced should look after


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## Retic (Mar 8, 2006)

Well I have 30 years experience under my belt so I'm more than happy to look after a few. :wink:


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## TrueBlue (Mar 8, 2006)

MH,- not mongerl gtps at all, maybe not locale specific but species specific, do you understant now or should I expain it in a more simple way so that you can.
Im not attacking you personally at all but will do the same to anyone who comes over here from overseas and trys to make himself look imporant by attempting to cause the UK and USA havock over here when it is illegal for a start let alone the dought it will eventually put over a number of pure animals.
Please tell me how putting two diferent speices of snakes together shows the skill of a breeder.? Any mug can do that. IMO it only shows the irresponsability of one.
Boa,- The albinos are a naturally occouring morph not artifically produced in captivity there for legal.


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## Retic (Mar 8, 2006)

I lived in the UK for sometime and kept reptiles for awhile, I can't say I saw any evidence of the havoc you are speaking of. It is possible to buy the most amazing line bred morphs, crosses and pure animals depending on what you prefer.
From what I understand it is illegal to breed for a specific trait in an animal, albinos are in that category.


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## TrueBlue (Mar 8, 2006)

Boa,- why do you think that species and locale specific animals cost so much more over there?, its because, as MH has said, they are much harder to source there for much rarer in captivity, that is the havock Im talking about. But to you guys that may be normal, to us it is not, and I for one would like to keep it that way.
So your also saying that breeding pure animals for high yellow or stripes or certain head markings etc is illeagal.?
I think not.


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## Retic (Mar 8, 2006)

Mmm, I was under the impression we did in fact pay more for those animals here as well, isn't that why we see Jungles for $300 and others for $800 ? You pay for the fact that the animal is from a specific locality rather than just being a Jungle. Would you pay more for a guaranteed Australian GTP ? 
As far as the example you gave all I know is that it is illegal to breed for a specific trait and I guess that can be interpreted in many ways. I am only going by what half a dozen people have told me, I wouldn't know where to look for that particular piece of legislation but I'm sure others would


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## TrueBlue (Mar 8, 2006)

Boa,- I dont agree with that at all, most jungles are sold more on their looks than anything else,ie high yellow, solid black, stripes etc. All of these can be found in pure and crosses, plus some crosses are sold for $800 or more and some pures are sold for $300 or less. I know where most of my animals have orginated from and sell them for the same or a bit less than the normal rate for that species.?


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## BROWNS (Mar 8, 2006)

Yep just because someone sells cheaper jungles than the norm doesn't mean they are no good and not pure,maybe not locality specific but still cheynei and not talking Atherton Palmerston,Tully crosses etc but true jungles.

You can pay up to $800 or more for a stunning looking jungle but it also may not necessarily be locality pure however the colour or markings is what mainly determines price along with bloodline value as a skugly fugly from a good line can still produce screamers so even fuglys from a good line can cost $5-$800.

Never heard that breding for traits is illegal nor breeding naturally occuring colour morphs such as albinos,leucistics,tigers,you could include the bumblebee bhp,caramel albino childreni,albino carpets,olives,adders even hypos etc which all originated from the wild in their pure and natural state and most will have better locality info than many other random specimens of any species.Is this rule supposedly only in QLD,it's a joke with all the different rules for different states,we can't keep a croc where they naturally occur but you can keep one in Vic where it's cold as hell and not a natural climate for them at all along with other states not being able to keep amae for example,it's a joke why not one rule for all staes?The breeding of any morph then in QLD or even breeding for stripes where the genes originally came from the wild with many different pure species is illegal in QLD is that 100% correct?There are free ranging pure locality animals i see regularly with stripes etc so how can it be illegal to breed for these traits which most of occur in the wild from the very start.All the known morphs i know of bar a couple stem from a wild caught specimen showing the trait such as albinos of many different species we have,not man made but served up by Mother Nature and it is meant to be illegal to breed them what a laugh :roll:


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## Retic (Mar 8, 2006)

I agree Browns, it's crazy. I have heard the same from a few different sources. The situation seems to be they don't care about having say an albino or leucistic animal but don't want them bred because they are in reality 'defective' and ordinarily wouldn't survive. My understanding that strictly speaking it also applies to striped animals if you specifically breed for that trait.


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## PilbaraPythons (Mar 8, 2006)

Last time I read the act and if my memory serves me correctly it was only illegal to puposely cross breed species.
I very much doubt it has changed.


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## BROWNS (Mar 8, 2006)

Fair enough for cross breeding purposely and this is again where different rules etc in different states where in Vic all carpets are under varieagata so crossing a murray darling with a jungle by rights as far as terminology for species and sub species etc goes would be perfectly fine,however in QLD again this is completely different with all the sub species being listed.

There was an albino red belly caught at adult at reproducing age and size,also a friend of mine has a bottled/pickled leucistic bts he came across just hit but still alive also of reproductive size and others have been reported,the albino bhp caught outside of Rockhampton definitely wasn't a young animal judging from the pics although most likely not of breeding size but had lasted to get to what appears to be approx5-6 foot when caught then there's the 2 leucistic macs,Blondie was a juvy when caught does anyone know what size Spliff the original albino olive was when caught?

Also if bloody Irwin hadn't sent all those greens overseas there would be pure Aussie greens still here and god forbid we may have had the chance to keep 100%pure Aussie greens one day,plus the others he sent with them being of the Merauka race still "deemed"Aussies.Hopefully Tim at URS succeeds with the very rare pure Aussie greens formerly being G Gows which incidentally don't fit the mould of what many describe all Iron Range greens to look like being all yellow with no white spotted dorsal area and the blue one which would be deemed Aussie but that's where a good example of the difference between pure and deemed Aussie greens,i don't think there has ever been an all blue pure Australian specimen ever recorded and that colour morph comes from the crossing of 2 different geographical races of greens,yes both are same species but not pure Australian from Iron Range which is the point i was making earlier.

A shame if NPWS are so against crossing and all for keeping species pure and natural they should allow someone,even a zoo to collect some Iron Range GTP for an ongoing breeding programme,wishfully hoping one day they may be available to the serious purist hobbyist and if nothing else breed them for preservation of the species which who knows one day a natural disaster could wipe out Iron Range and all it's reptile inhabitants,it's a shame these rules seem so stupid and basically contradict each other.I'm also taking a good guess if they were a $500 well established python in captivity there wouldn't be anywhere near half the fuss they cause almost every time GTP is mentioned...jmo


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## steve6610 (Mar 9, 2006)

hi browns,
thanks for that, i wish i could put things into words like you can, and i don't really care what other people think about intergrades, we love her and thats enough, and by the way, i only have 1 of her mongrel hatchlings left, seems that most people like the ugly ducklings, 

cheers,
steve and ebony...........


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## herptrader (Mar 9, 2006)

*Most people have had their say so I thought for a change I might summarise what has been discussed rather than let the discussion just wither to an end as normally happens.

It is clear from the voting (over 80 cast – pretty good for an APS discussion) and the view expressed in the discussion that the vast majority (including me) appreciate selective breeding for traits and carefully managed breeding programs attempting to maintain species and locale specific populations in captivity.

A number made the point that by choosing the pairings we are already playing god and as such selectively breeding (for traits etc.) whether that was our intention or not.

People are more divided when it comes to breeding across the species barrier. Many thought it ok but many others were vehemently opposed.

A vocal minority expressed the opinion that selectively breeding is really bad, producing only worthless mongrels and it was pointed out that in one state it was technically illegal. (Where else but Queensland….) 

A number made the point that we are only allowed to keep herps as “Wildlife” – not as pets as this is the way the licence is worded. (Others believe the law is an Ass and sometimes disagree with government policy. I for one refer to my herps as pets!)

I would like to think that in the future that when of our members posts an image of some designer morph that rather than personally attacking that member they simply refer to this discussion an the points made in it when making their point.*


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## ad (Mar 9, 2006)

The most popular option states - "just do not mix the two"
All the pro hybrid people have stated they know that they will be mixed, its not a realisitc option. Most dont realize -yet.
Not one of you has debated the negatives I have put forward to cross breeding. Not one positive can be put forward other than 'cause i want a pretty snake'. The only basis for any reasoning is 'this is happening on a miniscule level' so lets go all out. (ie line breeding for colour- hardly comparable to crossing but..) 
When people buy there hybrids we see the odd disgruntled customer who doesnt realize they are getting an animal that is crossed. Multiply this 1000 fold. We are only getting handfuls of clutches atm - some are mistakes - MH hopes to breed 8 cluthes of hybrids himself this season - thats a lot of het/hybrids hitting the market - just one wannabe breeder - imagine if some actual breeders start as well.
The bottom line is that the main people Boa and MH have never bred ANY aussie python - good luck to them creating something better. When they have maybe we can debate how nice and what price they think they are worth and maybe even the wanky name they give them.
When some of you (like internationals are right now) rue the day we started wholesale crossing animals, remember there was a time to try and stop it.
If anyone is chasing good locality, pure aussie pythons - deal with breeders who do not cross animals. Any breeder that crosses animals will do it with all their animals. When doubt starts creeping in about breeder integrity these are the first people to be suss on. ie If a jungle breeder has a stripey hatchy for instance, people will ask - does it have atherton in it, maybe he crossed it with a jungle/diamond cross? I dont see each way bets fellas - sell your pure lines while people still havent woken up to you. 'Trust Me' dont cut it for everyone.
At the end of the day, you are going to do it - so lets now see what you produce.
Ad


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## Retic (Mar 9, 2006)

The overwhelming thing I have learned from this thread, apart from the obvious friends not being what they seem, is that people are very divided by this and this makes me understand why most of the big breeders avoid these forums and just get on with what they do best, produce good animals. 
Contrary to what has been said I hope in the near future to produce some beautiful PURE animals. Alongside these animals I also hope to produce some equally beautiful morphs, anyone who can't see that this is easily achievable I'm afraid can't see the big picture. 
The fact that I or anyone else hasn't bred Australian pythons before is completely irrelevant and most people can no doubt see that, the fact that I love snakes is obvious to anyone who knows me. 
I wish ALL breeders all the best in the future.


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## lutzd (Mar 9, 2006)

This has been a most informative debate. Unfortunately it descended into the depths of attacks and strayed too far from logical discussion. Therefore those posts which did not argue their points logically and/or were agressive to others have been removed. Seems to be the trend with this, and a couple of other topics, which is kinda sad in my view. It was a Loooooong thread, so I might have missed a couple - PM me if you think I should have removed other posts as well, and I'll have another look.


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