# aussie native gtps



## snakeitup (Apr 6, 2008)

Really keen to some pics of some hatchoe to adult size oz gtps.


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## pugsly (Apr 6, 2008)

Goodluck.

There are about 2 in captivity (apparently..)

Can show you plenty of others though lol..


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## Vincent (Apr 6, 2008)

pugsly said:


> Goodluck.
> 
> There are about 2 in captivity (apparently..)


 
Is that true? I've seen a few ad's recently advertising genuine Aussie GTP's. Are they telling fibs?


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## junglepython2 (Apr 6, 2008)

pugsly said:


> Goodluck.
> 
> There are about 2 in captivity (apparently..)
> 
> Can show you plenty of others though lol..


 
There seems to have been a very recent explosion in captive numbers


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## Ramsayi (Apr 6, 2008)

Apparently there were some but they got picked up by customs at the border.Aussie ones too of course:lol:


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## pugsly (Apr 6, 2008)

Pmsl


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## Splitmore (Apr 6, 2008)

one breeder has definately been producing 100% Aussie greens for a few years now.


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## Splitmore (Apr 6, 2008)

it's like 90% of the locality stuff you see advertised, it's usually whatevers sought after or 'in' at the time, you usually see stuff advertised a such


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## Ramsayi (Apr 6, 2008)

Splitmore said:


> one breeder has definately been producing 100% Aussie greens for a few years now.



Is that the guy who sells them straight out of the egg and wont have anything to say to you after the sale?


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## Splitmore (Apr 6, 2008)

Ramsayi said:


> Is that the guy who sells them straight out of the egg and wont have anything to say to you after the sale?



I really don't know to be honest but if you are buying them straight out of the egg then I'd be making sure you and the breeder both knew exactly where you stood if any problems arised BEFORE the deal was struck


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## zulu (Apr 6, 2008)

*re aussie*



Splitmore said:


> it's like 90% of the locality stuff you see advertised, it's usually whatevers sought after or 'in' at the time, you usually see stuff advertised a such



Yeh splitty,i notice lately that every woma is a rockhampton downs.


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## bigguy (Apr 6, 2008)

There are only 2 of the offspring left from the legally obtained Aussie GTPs. These were the late Gow's animals which now reside with Tim at URS.

However, I have noticed lately numerous GTP's for sale advertised as Aussies, and from the attached pics some most definately are Aussies. It would appear some people may have visited Cape York


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## Jungleland (Apr 6, 2008)

zulu said:


> Yeh splitty,i notice lately that every woma is a rockhampton downs.


 
Spot on Zulu warrior


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## pugsly (Apr 6, 2008)

Spot on Bob..


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## NickM (Apr 7, 2008)

I dont want to cast doubt on any of the apparent Aussie GTPs but there is a one population in Indo that is identical to the Australian population.

GTPs from the population around Merauke , Irian Jaya are indistinguishable from Aussie green trees, both in appearance and at the genetic level.

So if one were to smuggle some of these into Australia it would be the perfect crime ,and nearly impossible to prove.

And to add to the temption you can buy farm bred Merauke GTPs for about $200 each over here.

Nick


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## Reptilia (Apr 7, 2008)

NickM said:


> I dont want to cast doubt on any of the apparent Aussie GTPs but there is a one population in Indo that is identical to the Australian population.
> 
> GTPs from the population around Merauke , Irian Jaya are indistinguishable from Aussie green trees, both in appearance and at the genetic level.
> 
> ...



Are you sure that the png merauke locality and the aussie iron range/ mcillwraith locality are indistinguishable? 
The current aussie gtps that are avaliable are dna profiled. The auussie gtps dont grow as big and are lighter in colour aswell, arent they?


I think their are 2 current lines of aussie gtp's, tims at urs and the ones advertised in reptiles australia. I think his name was michael cermak.


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## cv_2_ (Apr 7, 2008)

im pretty sure snake ranch will be selling them soon as do SXR and URS. and there have been like 2 clutches advertised on herp trader???


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## Retic (Apr 7, 2008)

That's very interesting Nick, especially given the fact that Australian GTP's seem to go for double the money of the others. Also as Merauke is just about the closest point to the mainland it would make sense that the 2 are identical, just a short boat trip away


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## Ryan93 (Apr 7, 2008)

pugsly said:


> Goodluck.
> 
> There are about 2 in captivity (apparently..)
> 
> Can show you plenty of others though lol..


 
There is a few on www.herptrader.com.au that are selling for $8000-$14000 and are guarinteed australian bloodline.


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## Aslan (Apr 7, 2008)

*Ryan* - That is the issue - how can they be guaranteed..?


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## NickM (Apr 7, 2008)

There is not enough genetic difference between them to tell them apart. Both the Merauke and Australian forms of viridis are distinct from all other populations of GTP. The close proximity is the likley reason. The most likley scenario is that the Australian populations arre merely the last remnant of what was a much larger distribution in the past.

Climate change since the last glacial maximum , just 18,000BP has radically alterd the geography of the region as well as the ranges of the species that inhabit the area.

Since the land bridge between New Guinea and Australia became submerged, Parts of Australia have become more arid ,decreasing viridis habitat. 

At the same time southern New Guinea seems to have become more wet, there are now only small fragmentary patches of savanah left along the southern coast. These are the only areas where species like carpets, frillies, and blue tongues are found.

This map shows the Sehaul Shelf just 18,000 years ago and illustrates this perfectly.


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## ravensgait (Apr 7, 2008)

Is this an Iron Mountain or a Merauke ?





Though Meraukes still go for a little more than the average Farmed baby they are dirt cheepiny comparison to what they go for over there. They look alike and can't be distinguished through testing , well as far as I know anyway.

Just as IJs and Darwin's can't be distinguished from each other these guys are to close to call.. Randy


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## snakes01 (Apr 7, 2008)

someone is selling this one on herp trader and says that it is a native aussie one


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## flavirufus (Apr 7, 2008)

NickM said:


> GTPs from the population around Merauke , Irian Jaya are indistinguishable from Aussie green trees, both in appearance and at the genetic level.



Hi Nick,
Your statements are mostly correct, except that there is some difference between the Australian and Merauke populations at the genetic level. Its just that the resolution is not very good with the current data and techniques that are available. If you were to genotype a Merauke animal, it would come out as 'probably Merauke', whereas an Australian would come out as 'probably Australian'. They are certainly very closely related, though, and do form a bit of a sub-set within the southern GTP species.
Regards,
Matt


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## Aslan (Apr 7, 2008)

snakes01 said:


> someone is selling this one on herp trader and *says* that it is a native aussie one


 
...the issue is the *proof* that it is an Aussie animal...


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## NickM (Apr 7, 2008)

Thats what I meant. I in no way want to cast doubt on anyones claims of authenticity for their Ausssie GTPs, I know nothing about them and would not want to leave that impression.

Just wanted to point out that thepossibility exists.

For the record I do work with the Merauke form and They are among my favorite GTPs, all that dealt with have had great personalities and in the case of captive bred animals have proven to be very hardy animals.

Nick


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## bigguy (Apr 7, 2008)

You can not tell from the pic attached to the ad. You cannot see the markings on the back at any point of the pic. From the pic it appears it has no dorcile spotting, and if that is the case it is not a native GTP.

Meraukes GTP have very similar colour and markings to Aussie species, but normally have more continuous spotting down the dorcile line, and a slightly darker green background.


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## junglepython2 (Apr 7, 2008)

If your interested check out this article, it basically supports what NickM and Flavirufus said.

Phylogeographic analysis of the green python, _Morelia viridis_, reveals cryptic diversity 
Lesley H. Rawlingsa, b and Stephen C. Donnellan

The other thing is that from what I can gather most of the so called DNA testing is mDNA which is only carried through the maternal side. If this is the case even a hybrid mothered by a native GTP but fathered by a totally different species would still come back as a pure aussie GTP from mDNA testing.

Can anyone shed any light on the DNA they are using to proove the 'pure' aussie gtp's?


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## craftsman (Apr 7, 2008)

*Ausie GTPs*

Interesting to read other people's opinions. By the way, BIGGUY, I managed to obtain copies of 5 permits issued by the QPWS to different individuals (I was one of them) in the mid 80s to collect GTPs at Iron Range, so it wasn't just progeny of Gow's animals that ended up on the market.

Why would anyone want to buy GTPs straight from the egg? I can sell you established, feeding, 5 months-old juveniles with 100% guarantee to be native.


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## snakeitup (Apr 7, 2008)

any chance you can post some pics of your stock craftsman?
Cheers, James


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## craftsman (Apr 7, 2008)

*GTPs*

Hi James, go to Herp Trader and you will find photos of my animal(S) there - look for Ausie native ...
I am very reluctant to send pictures or detailed info - there have been too many tyre kickers and even few idiots just wasting my time ... I trust you understand.


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## snakeitup (Apr 7, 2008)

No worries mate, Cheers


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## Aslan (Apr 7, 2008)

*Craftsman* - It is definately great news to the hobby to know that there are more lines of pure Australian GTPs around - but the issue of proof remains the same...

How do you guarantee their bloodline...?


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## Retic (Apr 7, 2008)

It really is no different to buying a pure locale Jungle or Diamond, you HAVE to take the word of the breeder as there really can be no guarantee. A persons reputation is built on their word, a genuine breeder would have no reason to lie.


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## craftsman (Apr 7, 2008)

*GTPs*

that is true to the point. The origin of females can be conclusively determined by mitochondrial DNA profiling but the males hang in limbo. 
I know that my stock is genuine, I wouldn't advertise it as such otherwise. I will be around breeding native GTPs next year, the year after and in 5 or 10 years time. Why would I want to tarnish my name by offering mongrels as natives?


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## JasonL (Apr 7, 2008)

Aslan said:


> *Ryan* - That is the issue - how can they be guaranteed..?



because the breeder will tell you of course!


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## JasonL (Apr 7, 2008)

Bugger spending the extra getting Aussie ones, just get cheapies, their all just green carpets?


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## pugsly (Apr 7, 2008)

Ditto Jason, whats the big deal, the Aussie ones have a few white spots down the back, ooooo thats worth the extra $ ..


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## spilota_variegata (Apr 7, 2008)

What is the big deal about Aussie GTPs? I personally find some of the imports to be much better looking snakes. Sure there are some good looking Aussies around but I feel this "genuine Australian GTP" label is just a marketing ploy to try to raise the price of local stock and reduce the price of the designer animals. I don't think you're going to find a nice calico Australian GTP anywhere.


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## NickM (Apr 8, 2008)

Aussie GTPs along witht he Mearkes are likley at some point to be a seperate taxon, making all the "designer" GTPs hybrids.

Another thing that US breeders rarely will talk about is that the vast majority of "designer" GTPs are predominantly green as adults.

Most of the pictures you see in magazines and ont he internet are taken when the animals are still changing color, the "calico" animals are a prefect example. Just ask someone to show you a picture of a 5-7 year old "calico" you wont find one.

The designer mutts have a prolonged and more complicated color change, thats all, and many breeders simply stop taking pics when the animals mature.

One dead giveaway is to look at the eye color. The vast majority of "extreme" mutt GTPs are red-neonates, and they have reddish eyes. the eye color remains untill they are sub-adults but changes to the normal color when they are mature. Occasionally some poeple will get young males to breed and you do see the occasional picture of an animal with juvenile eye color breeding.

Look closely at the eyes of all these "desinger" GTPs and you will see that most are still the juvenile color. 

This is all a bit dis-ingenous. The GTPs community here is not particularily honest with regard to several issues.

They present these "desingers" as if they were predictably inheritable, and these appearances are not. Most of the people who spend a great deal of money on these animals as neonates end up with predominantly green snakes. 

I posted a thread to the large GTP forum some time ago and simply asked for pics of "extreme" adults, at least 5 years old or older. Excluding WC animals the thread received virtually no responses.

Another thing to consider is that virtually every GTP you see prodcued here are hybrids and crosses. Its only a matter of time before Viridis is broken up into multiple forms at either the species or sub-species level, 
There is a ton of propaganda surrounding this species. And its a chore to sort through it to find the truth.

Nick


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## albino (Apr 8, 2008)

NickM said:


> .
> 
> Another thing that US breeders rarely will talk about is that the vast majority of "designer" GTPs are predominantly green as adults.
> 
> ...


 
that's a big call, Nick. if you're not right, you've just created another ton of propaganda. are your claims based on the fact that you received "virtually no responses" because that doesn't persuade me. you are also very loose with the term hybrid, intraspecific matings cannot be hybrids, and there aren't even any recorded subspecies with any taxonomic recognition (this is likely to happen eventually, as you say)


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## wokka (Apr 8, 2008)

I have noticed with many pythons but in particular GTPs that color seems to have low heretibility. This does not appear to be the view of the majority of the Australian herp community, which I note generally has a very small sample from which to form their views.Most recently I attended Greg Maxwells talk and he would have to promote himself as a meticulous breeder chasing particular color morphs.After a number of generations he is still only producing a few individuals of the color morph he's chasing in each clutch .
I have recently looked at quite a few of last years "Australian Hatchoes" which now reside in various parts of Aus but originatied from the same clutch bred in Cairns.The animals vary dramatically. I am told that one Aussie line has the white down its back and the other doesn,t. Of course all the animals I saw released last year didn't, but then thats part of good marketing. You have to keep interest in the pot of gold so the punters keep chasing the rainbow.
With such low heretibility the progress towards predictable color morphs will be slow so the challenges will continue to maitain interest in the herp community.


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## craftsman (Apr 8, 2008)

There is no big deal about Ausie GTPs and no one is saying that they are "better" than the rest. The difference is, there is a bloodline with known origin. Something we can't say (with certainty) about the others. Ausie GTPs may appeal to keepers / breeders who appreciate pure locality bloodline. They are more expensive because there are fewer of them in collections.
As to the white dots - native GTPs ALWAYS have vertebral dots / lines, sometimes even small dots all over the body (this is rare). These markings are usually pure white but on some individuals they may be creamy to almost yellow. If you see GTP with white dots scattered all over but not lined up along the spine - it's not an native animal!


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## expansa1 (Apr 8, 2008)

craftsman said:


> There is no big deal about Ausie GTPs and no one is saying that they are "better" than the rest. QUOTE]
> 
> "Why would I want to tarnish my name by offering mongrels as natives?"
> 
> ...


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## craftsman (Apr 8, 2008)

Is Greg Maxwell the God?
Please look up the word "mongrel' in a dictionary - I have a mongrel dog and it's the most beautiful and loving animal. Of course all GTPs are special but they are not all the same.


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## expansa1 (Apr 8, 2008)

craftsman said:


> Is Greg Maxwell the God?
> Please look up the word "mongrel' in a dictionary - I have a mongrel dog and it's the most beautiful and loving animal. Of course all GTPs are special but they are not all the same.



Hey, I'm not the one contradicting myself in two posts in the same thread!

BTW, I took your advice and looked up the Australian Macquarie Dictionary and it states that aside from being of mixed breeding etc, a mongrel is "of little or no value"


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## JJS. (Apr 8, 2008)

> There seems to have been a very recent explosion in captive numbers


 
So your implying that noone is capable of breeding them here?


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## ad (Apr 8, 2008)

Here are some advanced aussie chondros.
Photo's are from Iron Range, 
Cheers
Adam


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## NickM (Apr 8, 2008)

Like it or not the various forms of GTP are different, at least as different as the various forms of carpet python, and on a genetic level they are even more distinct.

My opinions are based on the available data, virtually all of wich supports the notion that viridis represents more than one taxon. included in this are three genetic studies. A fourth genetic study is underway on the entire genus, I myself contributed over 40 samples to that study.

Most over here hide behind the "one species" arguement, but its really obvious in the flesh how different they are.

I have the luxury of having owned probably 30 GTP from all the various regions. 

When you can hold them in your hands and look at the various localities its hard to make the arguement that they are one species.

And the endless Greg Maxwell worship is a huge problem. He is one man with his opinion, he wrote a very flawed book wich presents his opinion as if it were fact, and everyone wants to take it as such.

An on the issue of Native Aussie GTPs, as an outsider looking in, everything from Australia is better!

Nick


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## NickM (Apr 8, 2008)

on the white striping, it comes in with age, and most captive bred animals display less white than their wild counterparts. There is some reason to suspect that natural light intensity is a factor in this..


Nick


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## Retic (Apr 8, 2008)

Nick, don't try and further complicate the situation for us over here  We already have all Greens lobbed in together and God only knows what would happen if they decide to seperate them into 3 or 4 different sub species. I would hazzard a guess and say that most people buying a Green have little interest in it's origins as 99% over here could come from absolutely anywhere and the chances of buying a hatchling from 2 parents from same locale are slim at best and would be a result of good luck rather than good judgement.


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## expansa1 (Apr 8, 2008)

NickM said:


> Like it or not the various forms of GTP are different, at least as different as the various forms of carpet python, and on a genetic level they are even more distinct.
> 
> My opinions are based on the available data, virtually all of wich supports the notion that viridis represents more than one taxon. included in this are three genetic studies. A fourth genetic study is underway on the entire genus, I myself contributed over 40 samples to that study.
> 
> ...



Can't wait for your book to come out Nick!
Professional jealousy perhaps?


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## ravensgait (Apr 8, 2008)

LOL Nick, I've seen you make that comment about them being separated before and like before when I now ask you to show us something to back up what you have said in this thread, You will hem and haw but as usual provide nothing other than your word. Well I for one don't take Nick's word when it comes to Chondro's so how about something we can see here Nick?? 

If you guys want to see adult Designers let me know and I'll post some links to forums where you can find a whole lot of them.. Randy


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## Jumala (Apr 8, 2008)

regardless of the species of reptile, there are ALWAYS people who are willing to pay for and keep locality specific animals. The price for locality animals depends on what the seller is willing to part with them for and what the buyer is willing to pay. It doesn't matter what is the perceived market price is for a species, people will always set the price. JMO


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## wokka (Apr 8, 2008)

ravensgait please post the links.


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## ravensgait (Apr 8, 2008)

Here ya go, this one also has links to other sites they are just under the logo with all the chondro's on it.. http://moreliaviridis.yuku.com/forums/63 on the classifieds page you'll find links to breeders ETC. Also on Gregs site Chondro Forums you find even more links.. 
Here's one that I just looked at with a few adults in it, http://moreliaviridis.yuku.com/topic/7093
Randy


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## Australis (Apr 8, 2008)

This kinda reminds me of the people that like to mention DNA work on Carpets has negated the sub-species..?
I think some preliminary finding were presented at a herp club. but a completed paper hasn't been published as of yet? 

Not to launch this thread off topic, but if a complete paper has been published online could someone pm me?





NickM said:


> An on the issue of Native Aussie GTPs, as an outsider looking in, everything from Australia is better!
> 
> Nick



Don't worry, from the inside looking out its just as magnificent 


Matt


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## waikare (Apr 8, 2008)

wat makes gtp's so special anyway is it because they r so rare and cost so much, to me they r just a green carpet tht i would never be able to afford so y wld i get excited about them when there is many more lovely snakes tht i can afford and keep.


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## Ryan93 (Apr 8, 2008)

snakes01 said:


> someone is selling this one on herp trader and says that it is a native aussie one


 
That is the one i am talking about. dam thats a nice snake.


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## Jonno from ERD (Apr 8, 2008)

It's one of those things...once you've seen a true Aussie next to a mixed or non-Aussie, you can spot the difference. True Aussie greens are just awesome.


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## NickM (Apr 8, 2008)

Randy if you had actually read all the posts in this thread wou would find that one of the papers has already been mentioned ; Phylogeographic analysis of the green python, _Morelia viridis_, reveals cryptic diversity 
Lesley H. Rawlingsa, b and Stephen C. Donnellan

I Am sure you can find it online somewhere, I have a copy of it, perhaps you should try reading it before commenting on the subject.

Nick


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## The Devil (Apr 8, 2008)

I think that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder,.....I've seen some "Serong"ones in the flesh and they would do me any day..........


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## Jungle_Freak (Apr 8, 2008)

Randy 
Thanks for posting those link pics of adult morph GTPs 
they are amazing ,


Roger


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## TrueBlue (Apr 8, 2008)

gee i really dont know what all the fuss is about. IMO they are one of, if not the most boring snake to keep.
They remind me alot of gorilla snot.


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## junglepython2 (Apr 8, 2008)

JJS. said:


> So your implying that noone is capable of breeding them here?


 
Not at all, I can't why they would be harder to breed then any other locality, just that a few years ago there seemed to be none on the market now they are popping up everywhere. While I'm sure some are legit, there are bound to be others that aren't.

And for those interested in the article I posted up earlier this is a quote from it:

"The pattern of relationships found for mitochondrial and nuclear genes suggests the presence of two species of _M. viridis_, one present north of the central cordillera and the other present in southern New Guinea and Australia."

Once again it is : Phylogeographic analysis of the green python, _Morelia viridis_, reveals cryptic diversity Lesley H. Rawlingsa, b and Stephen C. Donnellan


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## zulu (Apr 8, 2008)

*re aussie*



The Devil said:


> I think that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder,.....I've seen some "Serong"ones in the flesh and they would do me any day..........


Yes they are all good for me too,beggers cant be chosers,the native ones ive seen are good but i also like the green ones with the blue vertabral pattern thats attractive to look at.


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## ravensgait (Apr 9, 2008)

No problem guys, 
While i will agree that Carpets ETC from Oz tend to look better than most the critters we have when it comes to Chondro's Indo has more and better looking examples hands down.

Here Nick, I found one of those kinds of papers like you reference all the time.

"Americanitis fullofcrapest"
By-JoBlow Nothaveproofest

yeah I think Chondro's are each and everyone a different species because no two are exactly alike. Just like each human is a different species from everyone else because no two are exactly alike which leads to every living creature on this planet being a different species making trillions of species inhabiting this planet and millions if not billions of new species being born everyday. It is so because I said so so there so.

Nick this looks to be as good as any proof you've offered...Randy


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## NickM (Apr 9, 2008)

Randy, you are making yourself look very foolish. I gave you the name of the paper, what more do you want.

Its been posted online before, though I do not remeber where, go find it and try reading it before you make beligerant and un-educated comments.

Nick


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## gold&black... (Apr 9, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> It's one of those things...once you've seen a true Aussie next to a mixed or non-Aussie, you can spot the difference. True Aussie greens are just awesome.




Lol Spoken like a true Aussie


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## Retic (Apr 9, 2008)

Without a hint of bias LOL


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## albino (Apr 9, 2008)

NickM said:


> Greg Maxwell worship is a huge problem. He ......... presents his opinion as if it were fact
> 
> Nick


 

anyone else see the irony here?


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## NickM (Apr 9, 2008)

Albino, if you want to worship Greg Maxwell then be my guest, but it does not make him the best authority on the subject, nor does writing a book make someone an authority on a subject.

His book is fine if taken as a basic manual for keeping GTPs alive, but beyond that its value is limited.

His opinions on locality for example are tremendously biased and his views , presented as fact, conveniently serve his agenda of promoting the mutts he prodcues and discourageing locality breeding.

Similariily the US GTP community wich certainly includes Maxwell, promote overfeeding. The results are unnaturally large GTPs , Obesity, rectal prolapses and reprodcutive problems.

Just watch the US forums, there always people talking abut enormous clutches, sometimes in excess of 40 eggs, almost always with very poor fertility. All a result of overfeeding.

GTPs are small pythons that naturally lay small clutches, a fact totally lost on US keepers and Mr Maxwell.

Nick


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## wokka (Apr 9, 2008)

Interesting Nick.Not much good promoting mutations in Aus are wasted because we cant get them here. Most keepers in Aus only need a basic manual because we are at the beginning of the long road .


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

i agree with NickM on how gtps are fed.
IMO most keepers grossly over feed them even here in oz.
In the wild they are a realitvly small medium built python, yet in captivity most seem to become very heavy bodied.
This imo is why they dont seem to live long in captivity compared to alot of other pythons, and a major reason people have trouble with them.


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## NickM (Apr 9, 2008)

they are speceis that should lay around 12-18 eggs, not the 30-40 commonly seen in obese captives.

A female snake should not lay more eggs than it can coil around to incubate, yet we constantly see this with these giant obese captives. If the female cant incubate the eggs in the wild the eggs die, and we dont see this in wild animals, its wasted effort and wild snakes cant afford to waste the calories!

Look closely at pics of Us captive GTPs, you will often see verticle creases in the scales, these are essentially fat folds and are casued by obesity.

I cant count how many pics of huge "designer" GTPs I have seen, some as large as jungle carpets!

Nick


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## Retic (Apr 9, 2008)

Nick, just out of curiousity but what age roughly would a Green have to be to reach 1/2 kilo in weight ? As they aren't naturally a very heavy bodied animal I would be interested to read your thoughts.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 9, 2008)

the perfect example here of how captive greens are over fed in captivity are the pics that ad posted of the wild greens in cape york.
Most people would call them skinny and under fed if the were captive bred and in a collection, yet those pics imo depict a healthy green in perfect condition.


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## Chimera (Apr 9, 2008)

Unfortunately the obese image of "healthy" GTPs has come from the US where the majority of captive boids are heavy bodied snakes. Greg Maxwell did state in his VHS talk that he had come to the realisation that they were obese and was trying to get them leaner to alleviate some of the health issues.

Unfortunately we are prone to following the US as much of the herpetocultural knowledge in Aus has originated from US sources (as shown by the fact that Barker '94 is the most quoted book on Australian Pythons). In more recent times though we have developed our own body of knowledge and finally looked at other Morelia to adjust our view on GTP body shape and size.


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## NickM (Apr 9, 2008)

Honestly I have never weighed a GTP, I would never4 even consider breeding a female any younger than 3.5 years old and usually wait untill 4 years.

Age is a component with any python breeding as well, and at least over here people are typically always trying to breed animals as fast as possible, wich plays into the over feeding issue as well.

Nick


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