# Looking for info on Corn Snakes



## Hethah (Mar 6, 2006)

I noticed some corn snakes on an American docu-style show recently.

Has anyone heard of them being in Australia, or if there is an Australian equvilant with the same characteristics?

I love carpet pythons and childrens pythons, but I believe corn snakes just don't get to the size that others can.


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## Samma3l (Mar 6, 2006)

Corn snakes are illegal in Australia.

Closest id say would be a green tree snake, but being a collubrid you may need to be an experienced snake keeper to own one


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## lutzd (Mar 6, 2006)

They are illegal, but I have seen a couple once. THey are a pretty snake. Unfortunately there are always people willing to take the risk of owning an exotic. Sad but true.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

There are 1000's of them here but illegal, there is nothing even close here as far as colouration for a first time snake. They are a wonderful beginners snake.


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## southy (Mar 6, 2006)

very cheap i believe aswell, last i heard was $100 about 6 months ago. but illegal, get a blond mac or something


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## junglemad (Mar 6, 2006)

corn snakes are exotic crap...anyone who has them should be dobbed in. get a licence and keep australian snakes. end of story


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## Dicco (Mar 6, 2006)

Two words, Night Tiger - Northern form of the Brown Tree Snake - , can be snappy and aren't a real handling snake in general, but are gorgeous animals, can get animals that are a rich red with cream banding, or ornge and cream ect, also the Eastern form, can have slight banding, but is generally a brown or browny orange colour.


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## herptrader (Mar 6, 2006)

I would have thought the closest husbandry wise would be a children's python.

I think part of the apeal of corn snakes to the beginner is all the bright colours based on albinos. One day this will happen with the children's pythons also and we will probably end up with a similar mix of designer animals.


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## Craig2 (Mar 6, 2006)

looks like this thred is heading down the debate path


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Exotic crap !! Why are people so insular ? Fair enough they are illegal but that doesn't make them crap, they are beautiful snakes. 



junglemad said:


> corn snakes are exotic crap...anyone who has them should be dobbed in. get a licence and keep australian snakes. end of story


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## SLACkra (Mar 6, 2006)

what debate? considering the amount of damage cain-toads and other introduced species have done you would think people would understand that owning an exotic reptile isn't a good thing!


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Yeah it's way worse than keeping a cat or dog or mouse or rat or guinae pig or rabbit or blah blah blah


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## freerider (Mar 6, 2006)

boa said:


> Yeah it's way worse than keeping a cat or dog or mouse or rat or guinae pig or rabbit or blah blah blah


Hahaha ....Yup so true, so true..........


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## SLACkra (Mar 6, 2006)

yes but how many times have lets say golden retreivers run off become feral, became a pack and made little golden retrievers? 

however boa dose bring up a good point, shouldn't we living in this country be keeping pets that are native. instead of a dog have a wallaby, instead of exotic birds have native birds. though i can hardly talk owning a pair of lovebirds and 2 goldeen retreivers, not to mention some of my fish which come from the amazon.


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## Greebo (Mar 6, 2006)

SLACkra said:


> yes but how many times have lets say golden retreivers run off become feral, became a pack and made little golden retrievers?




How do you think we ended up with Dingoes?


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## SLACkra (Mar 6, 2006)

> How do you think we ended up with Dingoes?



well they have been around for thousands of years. i am talking recently as in the last 100 years. also i do know that there have been problems with dingos breeding with other types of dog.


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## junglemad (Mar 6, 2006)

last time i checked, like the home of your beloved corn snakes, we still have free speech.
Nothing wrong with being insular either. If we were a little more insular in this country it would be better on a number of levels.
You like Boas and Corn Snakes but if you own them or turn a blind eye to them you are not furthering the hobby in this country one iota. How many boas and corn snakes have escped from collections? The people that cream their jeans over an international bitzer, and i refer to the 75% Jag (what is that???) and the 25% diamond cross jungle cross whatever else they muddied the water with that everyone was praising, should have a think as to why they are in the hobby.

Keep it native
Keep it pure
Here endeth the lesson


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Well this country is full of packs of wild dogs doing untold damage to native animals and cattle and sheep. So to answer the question many many times, not necessarily Golden Retrievers though  



SLACkra said:


> yes but how many times have lets say golden retreivers run off become feral, became a pack and made little golden retrievers?
> 
> however boa dose bring up a good point, shouldn't we living in this country be keeping pets that are native. instead of a dog have a wallaby, instead of exotic birds have native birds. though i can hardly talk owning a pair of lovebirds and 2 goldeen retreivers, not to mention some of my fish which come from the amazon.


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## Dicco (Mar 6, 2006)

Andrew, if it weren't for domestic dogs then w wouldn't have the major problem of Dingo Hybrids overtaking pure Dingo pops in the wild.


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## SLACkra (Mar 6, 2006)

> not necessarily Golden Retrievers though



booya  

though i wreckon it all comes down to responsible ownership, if everybody was a responsible owner then keeping exotic reptiles illegal wouldn't be nessesary.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Feral dogs are extremely common in the bush and do huge amounts of damage but still there ownership is pretty well unregulated and with cats completely unregulated so I wont lose any sleep over some corn snakes I'm afraid.


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Slackra, you are absolutely right.


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## SLACkra (Mar 6, 2006)

> Feral dogs are extremely common in the bush and do huge amounts of damage but still there ownership is pretty well unregulated and with cats completely unregulated so I wont lose any sleep over some corn snakes I'm afraid.



well you gotta start somewhere


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## moosenoose (Mar 6, 2006)

I'm still hanging to see a wild pack of dashund! hehehe Savage snake-like dogs only found on the expansive plains (simply because they're flat jumping a gutter, let alone a log)  :lol:


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 6, 2006)

I hate exotics, I'd much rather a ball python!


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## Retic (Mar 6, 2006)

Would that be an Uluru or Tanami Ball python ? 



peterjohnson64 said:


> I hate exotics, I'd much rather a ball python!


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 6, 2006)

Doh! I was waiting for someone to tell me what a ball python was


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## base2aau (Mar 26, 2006)

I spoke to a guy from the WPA at the brisbane pet and animal expo last weekend about them, Apparenty there is a big problem with feral corn snakes in the blue mountains. 

If you really want one just wait a couple of years for them to catch up with their friends, the pig, the fox, the rabbit and the feral dog. I am sure they will be everywhere native snakes used to be.


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## Splitmore (Mar 26, 2006)

> I spoke to a guy from the WPA at the brisbane pet and animal expo last weekend about them, Apparenty there is a big problem with feral corn snakes in the blue mountains.


ha just like the burmese pythons overtaking the Danitree, the boas over running the Royal National Park and the iguanas living and breeding in the bule mountains as well! Stories like that pop up all the time and they are always a load of rubbish. One animal doesn't constitute a whole feral population.
For the millions and millions of pet snakes kept around the world there are very few feral populations. There are more childrens pythons kept as pets in NSW than corn snakes(although it's probably not that far different) yet the Blue mountains are being over run with them just yet. Maybe we should be working on banning childrens pythons in NSW as well just incase they escape and establish themselves.


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 26, 2006)

Hey Hethah, please dont make your next post a question about the husbandry of an albino carpet python.

these corn snake posts are following a trend


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 27, 2006)

i watched a doco recently that said that corns are pretty prolific breeders, i'd say that if any exotic posed a threat, it would probably be the corn more than any other. however, as for the previous dumb statement about them getting out and breeding, here goes :

chances of these:

1.a pair escaping from keeper (moderate)
2.finding each-other (unlikely)
3.finding each-other during breeding season (very unlikely)
4. successfully mating, and the female surviving her gravid period.
5.laying eggs and incubating for the whole term without being prey.
6.the said hatchlings living long enough to repeat the process (pffffff)

the average wild survival rate for a coastal carpet python clutch is 2 in 30. (due to bad feeders, predators and other related issues.)
of that 2, .5% make it to mature breeding age.
the female corns average around 12 eggs. making their average survival rate to mature breeding age limited.

i say on the small reptile scene we currently have in oz, our chances of an outbreak is close to zippo.


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 27, 2006)

i think it's pretty funny how everyone always points the finger at snakes when i comes to exotics. i personally would have a chamelon on my wish list if they were legalised.


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## RevDaniel (Mar 27, 2006)

i have seen them in Australia, they did nothing for me back then and do nothing for me now. I was asked if i wanted to own one, the answer should be obvious that i said no thanks and besides i ould hate to loose my reptiles because i am doing to wrong thing and keeping an exotic snake. I love Australian herps too much and would have any other reptiles here.


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 27, 2006)

i haven't seen them in the flesh, but the pics on kingsnake etc look pretty hot. however, at the end of the day, they are a pretty basic snake, and when we start to see some designer morphs of our native snakes, exotics will look pretty plain in themselves.
i watched reptilemania dvd the other day, and it's amazing to see how all the morphs came about, the gist i got was, that when ever a albino snake was found in the wild, it was straight away taken into captivity and bred, i'm assuming theres no licensing over there with this sort of practice in place.
the other impression that i was given is that albinos pop up fairly regularly over there. (or more so than in oz anyway)


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## Luke_ (Mar 27, 2006)

I have seen one in the flesh. A couple of years back they got that common in sydney I can only assume there was a need to come up with a new way to move them, hence people started walking into the pet shop I worked at telling me that just bought an albino childrens for $1000, my ears would shoot up and my eyes would widen. This happened a couple of times before someone brought one in to show me, sure enough it was an albino corn, silly fool had put it on his licence and all.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 27, 2006)

And you know, I bet if laws were changed all these haters of exotics would be right up there claiming their right to keep them. Blah, Blah, Blah. This topic is such an overkill!!!


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## Sdaji (Mar 27, 2006)

Azztech said:


> i watched a doco recently that said that corns are pretty prolific breeders, i'd say that if any exotic posed a threat, it would probably be the corn more than any other. however, as for the previous dumb statement about them getting out and breeding, here goes :
> 
> chances of these:
> 
> ...



:lol:

Run through the calculations according to your figures! If what you said was true, female carpet pythons which reach maturity in the wild have an average of 6,000 babies!

It's a good thing the people making the laws have more sense! Clearly the issue is misunderstood by many of the people who attempt to paint a safer picture than reality.


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## Retic (Mar 27, 2006)

6,000 babies, what have I missed ? If they lay 30 eggs for a maximum of say for instance 10 years that is 300 babies. Do they really live 200 years once mature ?  Maths was never my strongpoint.


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## Magpie (Mar 27, 2006)

> the average wild survival rate for a coastal carpet python clutch is 2 in 30. (due to bad feeders, predators and other related issues.)
> of that 2, .5% make it to mature breeding age.
> the female corns average around 12 eggs. making their average survival rate to mature breeding age limited



If one in 15 survives and only 0.5% of them breed, you need each female to lay 6000 eggs to continue the species.


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## Sdaji (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicely calculated!


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## Gilleni (Mar 27, 2006)

Not to mention they stand out like dogs balls..


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## Fuscus (Mar 27, 2006)

Azztech said:


> i watched a doco recently that said that corns are pretty prolific breeders, i'd say that if any exotic posed a threat, it would probably be the corn more than any other. however, as for the previous dumb statement about them getting out and breeding, here goes :
> 
> chances of these:
> 
> ...


* OR *

someone having a couple of breeding pairs for a few years, breeds up heaps and then decideds to get rid of the lot by dumping them as a group in the nearest bush


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## Magpie (Mar 27, 2006)

Of course, corn snakes can have multiple clutches in one year, from one mating so would not even need to find a partner at breeding time for the first generation.


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## herptrader (Mar 27, 2006)

Corn snakes are easy to breed which makes them a candidate for establishing a feral wild population.

The real key though is not how effectively they breed but how easily they become prey. Cats, Cane Toads, Foxes etc. have become a major problem because nothing in Australia effectively preys upon them.... or preys upon them and survives.

For example we may find that feral corn snakes lead to lots of fat kookaburras because they find that corn snakes make good eating and are easy to spot because they do not blend in well to our landscape (best case) or lots of dead kookaburras (worst case) because for example they may carry a disease that gets passed on to the kookaburras.

The examples of feral species decimating indigenous populations but one example going the otherway is the introduced garden snail which is heavily preyed upon by blue tongue skinks which has limited their penetration into the bush... they still do pretty well in our suburban gardens though.


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## Moreliaman (Mar 27, 2006)

herptrader said:


> lots of dead kookaburras (worst case) because for example they may carry a disease that gets passed on to the kookaburras.



Have you got any data to support this assertion? :wink: :lol: 


Would be interested if you or anyone else on here has seen any documented proof of reptile diseases being pased on to birds....possibly mammals ?


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## Retic (Mar 27, 2006)

No I think it is fair to say there is nothing to back that up. :lol: To say that lots of cornsnakes will contiribute to fat unhealthy kookaburras I think might be stretching the facts a little. I imagine a kookaburra could eat enough native animals to get fat if it wanted to. 



Moreliaman said:


> herptrader said:
> 
> 
> > lots of dead kookaburras (worst case) because for example they may carry a disease that gets passed on to the kookaburras.
> ...


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## moosenoose (Mar 27, 2006)

Fuscus said:


> * OR *
> 
> someone having a couple of breeding pairs for a few years, breeds up heaps and then decideds to get rid of the lot by dumping them as a group in the nearest bush



My God Fuscus - correct!! But you are also forgetting the other remote possibility of one mating with a tiger snake and producing corn tigers!!! Much like the infamous Taipan carpets I hear getting about biting unsuspecting victims who thing they are just mere carpet pythons! ......Fools!!!


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## ari (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi All

Just out of curiousity was it only a few years ago that Australians were asked to hand in their exotic reptiles?

I don't keep any exotics & have no intention to - love Aussie stuff, besides its illegal.

However the one thing I always think about when I see these posts, and the responses, is that reptiles whether it be an exotic turtle, snake etc etc can live many many years. What about that turtle in India which recently died at the ripe old age of 250 years something?

What I am getting at is that if you had an exotic which you have had for years & years even before these laws came out - and you loved it as much as BHP & Womas, and that it has been with you for so long - would you really want to hand it in because its an exotic - like something to through away after all these years, like abit of rubbish - knowing it could be put down? Think about it.

What happens if BHP werent allowed to be kept anymore & they made you hand them back - would you??

Just a thought & my opinion only.

Ari


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## Sdaji (Mar 27, 2006)

It was many years ago that Australians were asked to hand them in or destroy them. There have been a few amnesties in the last few years, one in which people were offered permits to keep their animals and a couple of others which allowed people to hand them in without a fine (although I think that if you called the department and said you wanted to take it upon yourself to do the right thing and hand your boa or corn snake in at any time they'd let you do it without fining you). Obviously most people aren't willing to hand them in. This was the case even when the permits to keep them were on offer for a variety of reasons. If people allowed themselves to be known, it would be more difficult for them to get away with breeding, they'd be watched more closely, they'd be admitting that they'd broken a law in the first place... it's hardly surprising that people who had already chosen to go outside the system chose not to come back to it. It would be interesting to know how many of those illegally keeping exotics are doing it just to have a couple of pets and how many are breeding. I think that although a few years ago we were underestimating the number of exotics which are around, the estimates which float around now are far in excess of what is actually there, mostly these exaggerations seem to be fueled by people hoping to have them legalised. It's sort of amusing to watch them bash their heads against the wall; it just ain't happenin'.

The wouldn't ban Black Headed Pythons now, it just wouldn't be possible because so many people are keeping them and were legally allowed to obtain them. If for some crazy reason we were no longer allowed to have them it would be done via a 'no more breeding' rule.


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## Hickson (Mar 27, 2006)

herptrader said:


> lots of dead kookaburras (worst case) because for example they may carry a disease that gets passed on to the kookaburras.





Moreliaman said:


> Have you got any data to support this assertion? :wink: :lol:
> Would be interested if you or anyone else on here has seen any documented proof of reptile diseases being pased on to birds....possibly mammals ?





boa said:


> No I think it is fair to say there is nothing to back that up. :lol: To say that lots of cornsnakes will contiribute to fat unhealthy kookaburras I think might be stretching the facts a little.



Herptrader was providing two possible examples - there is no data because there hasn't been a study of Kookaburra predation upon Corns. That doesn't mean that Daavid's hypothetical is invalid.

I would offer another scenario - Kookaburras might not eat Corn snakes because they don't taste good (orange colouration maybe warning colours).

And regards disease transmission, I recently was sent a paper on the spread of exotic ticks by the reptile trade in the USA. Two of the ticks carried rather nasty zoonoses - heartwater (which affects ruminant mammal species) and Q fever which can cause death in humans. Not really what you asked for, but I thought it might be contributable to the discussion.



Hix


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## herptrader (Mar 27, 2006)

I am just exploring "what if" scenarios.

The obvious example would be the toxicity of cane toads but I am guessing that corn snakes are unlikely to be toxic to Aussie animals that may encounter them as prey. It is also unlikely that they have a disease that would be passed onto mamals or birds. More likely is that they have a disease that can be passed on to other reptiles.



Moreliaman said:


> herptrader said:
> 
> 
> > lots of dead kookaburras (worst case) because for example they may carry a disease that gets passed on to the kookaburras.
> ...


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 27, 2006)

I reckon that the chances of exotics, like red eared sliders, actually escaping in sufficient numbers to establish a breeding populations in, say, Sydney is so remote that it just isn't worth thinking about.


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## Peter-Birch (Mar 27, 2006)

Red Eared sliders are already breeding in Sydney water ways, they are established and breeding


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## SLACkra (Mar 27, 2006)

> Red Eared sliders are already breeding in Sydney water ways, they are established and breeding



any proof to backup that statement? have you seen them first hand? have you monitored a nest sight and recored hatching? 

andrew


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## Fuscus (Mar 27, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> I reckon that the chances of exotics, like red eared sliders, actually escaping in sufficient numbers to establish a breeding populations in, say, Sydney is so remote that it just isn't worth thinking about.


Maybe true but Australia extends further than the boundary of Sydney
http://www.nrm.qld.gov.au/about/documents/annual_report/performance/turtle.html
http://www.abc.net.au/widebay/stories/s1297591.htm
http://www.nrm.qld.gov.au/pests/pest_animals/declared/american_corn_snake.html


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 27, 2006)

Did anyone understand what I was actually saying?


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## Fuscus (Mar 27, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> Did anyone understand what I was actually saying?


Proberly not. And you are proberly right. But the chances of sufficent animals being dumped are :?


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 27, 2006)

No Fuscus, everyone as been saying that the chances are too low for it to happen but the red eared sliders in the nepean river is a media reported (I have not read a scientific article on it) situation that actually exists. I was really having a dig at everyone that said it couldn't happen.


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## pugsly (Mar 27, 2006)

I got ya pete!

The good old south west probably already has wild populations of corns breeding..


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## Nephrurus (Mar 27, 2006)

Ahoi,
Shelly Burgin (sp?) at Uni Western Sydney Hawkesbury gave an interesting talk at the RZS conference recently. I'm pretty sure she'd be very interested in finding more areas where red eared sliders have been sighted and confidently identified. 

Contact her! I'm sure she has an email link on the Western Sydney Uni website. 

-Henry


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 27, 2006)

http://apps.uws.edu.au/media/news/index.phtml?act=view&story_id=1072

yeah maybe, but it may be more hype than science as well.


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## zulu (Mar 27, 2006)

*re Looking*

The shot neck turtles that are common in the hacking river and hawkesbury nepean have apparently been found to be exotics to the area,probably macquarie and brisbanes etc if you catch one do you let it go or hit it on the head.If they are introduced wouldnt they be taking the place of the longlicolis native to the area


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 27, 2006)

If you catch one you should hand it in to sydney wildlife so it can be balloted by a herp society. Same thing if you find a GTP, Emeral Python, perentie, coastal carpet snake, shingleback, blotched bluey or any other native herp that is not local to sydney. No need to kill it and you are not really allowed to release it (at least, I'm not).


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## crackers (Mar 27, 2006)

hethah.......did you actualy get any info on corn snakes??
people seem to forget that some of us have a love of reptiles of all types 
im proud of our natives!! and will fight to protect our critters from any threat to there existence
but isnt this site here to ask herp related Q's + there is some great looking stuff out there
if your going to get worked up about threats to our native guys lets look at the bigger probs e.g cats, roads , wild caught , disease etc


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## Moreliaman (Mar 28, 2006)

Hix said:


> Herptrader was providing two possible examples - there is no data because there hasn't been a study of Kookaburra predation upon Corns. That doesn't mean that Daavid's hypothetical is invalid.


 Sorry but i disagree, i think it is invalid....To date there is not even a single shread of evidence to suggest that reptile bourne diseases can be passed on to birds or mammals. 



Hix said:


> I would offer another scenario - Kookaburras might not eat Corn snakes because they don't taste good (orange colouration maybe warning colours)


 Are Kooks the only predatory birds in aus then ?? ,.....p.s. tell the kooks not to worry.......... cornsnake taste just like chicken !!! 



Hix said:


> And regards disease transmission, I recently was sent a paper on the spread of exotic ticks by the reptile trade in the USA. Two of the ticks carried rather nasty zoonoses - heartwater (which affects ruminant mammal species) and Q fever which can cause death in humans. Not really what you asked for, but I thought it might be contributable to the discussion..


 Something that would be sorted if quarentine rules were applied to any imported stock, i presume australia quarentine's all imported birds & mammals ? anyway, im not planning on keeping ticks just yet !! ill stick to reptiles !!....anyway you already have nasty ticks in queensland (bat ticks) 



herptrader said:


> More likely is that they have a disease that can be passed on to other reptiles.


With the 1000's of exotics in australia already, dont you think that if this could happen...then it would have happened already ?


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## Hickson (Mar 28, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> Sorry but i disagree, i think it is invalid....To date there is not even a single shread of evidence to suggest that reptile bourne diseases can be passed on to birds or mammals.



That doesn't make the suggestion invalid, just unlikely. You can't say that "because there is no evidence it can't happen", there's no evidence because maybe no-one has looked for it. 



Moreliaman said:


> Something that would be sorted if quarentine rules were applied to any imported stock, i presume australia quarentine's all imported birds & mammals ?



Quarantine Laws apply to all imported animals - and birds can't generally be imported. However, the ticks referred to in the paper were exotic to the USA and were found on the animals after they had passed quarantine inspections.



Moreliaman said:


> herptrader said:
> 
> 
> > More likely is that they have a disease that can be passed on to other reptiles.
> ...



It has happened already - OPMV, IBD, Reovirus etc.



Hix


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 28, 2006)

Heartwater! Got to love that stuff from Africa. So nasty! Hey but its like everything from Africa, big and nasty! Sorry I am just going off track. Did you guys know that we dont have heartworm in South Africa though. Strange that! But back to the topic. Thats correct you are all arguing about things that have not been studied properly. Who would know unless it happens. I still like all aussie reptiles, but would not mind getting some experience keeping some of the rarer animals over the world.


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## NCHERPS (Mar 28, 2006)

Moreliaman wrote: ? 
Sorry but i disagree, i think it is invalid....To date there is not even a single shread of evidence to suggest that reptile bourne diseases can be passed on to birds or mammals. 


Hix wrote:That doesn't make the suggestion invalid, just unlikely. You can't say that "because there is no evidence it can't happen", there's no evidence because maybe no-one has looked for it. 

There is more than a single thread of evidence, red eared sliders and snake and lizard species have been proved to be able to pass on Salmonella (Being the most commonly heard of) to humans, last time I checked, we were Mammals! LOL!

Other potential zoonoses are Campylobacter spp and Aeromonas spp.
Some other non- bacterial zoonoses include Crytosporidium spp, Coccidial spp and some worm species including Helminth's and Pentastomids.

Cheers Neil


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## herptrader (Mar 28, 2006)

I think my point about the survival rates of a potential feral populations got muddied by the examples I chose. The main point I wanted to make is:

*It is not how effectively an introuduced species can breed but how effectively it can surive that will determine how much of a problem it will become.*

The main things can that effect survival rates are how heavily predated it is, how susceptable it is to diseases it encounters and has no resistance to (having evolved elsewhere), how effectively it can compete with indigenous species for food and other resources. In each case the same applies in reverse for native animals attempting to compete with ferals which is here the problems really begin. Even something as simple as competing for nesting sites can have a devistating effect on a native population of animals.


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## Allan (Mar 28, 2006)

The "pest" herps in the world all stem from released animals, rather than escapees. Most pet shops in Europe and US sell herps without requiring a licence, no questions asked. Just like the Red eared slider situation a few decades back here in Australia. This practise attracts the impulsive buyers and some dump the animals in the wild after a while. We can now see the outcome of this, with populations of the slider getting a stromghold in some parts of Australia.
If exotics were licenced it would be just as much of a risk (none) that keepers release their jungles, bredli's and blackheads as they will release their corn snakes rather than sell it.
Instead we are stuck with the system where people can buy exotics without licence, no questions asked.


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## SLACkra (Mar 28, 2006)

> Even something as simple as competing for nesting sites can have a devistating effect on a native population of animals.



then come round to the area where i live. there is a population of about 7 alexandrine parakeets in the area, 2 breedinga dults and 5 youngin from various seasons. i know some one who lives nextdoor to the property which has a big euk on it that they nest in now and then(with fighting between them, other birds and possums)

i doupt there going to become an invasive pest but this just shows that even pet exotic birds can excape and breed. it is more likely that that will happen anyway as people regularly keep a pair of birds together and once they excape they won't seperate. 

andrew


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## crackers (Mar 28, 2006)

can anyone pop up a pic of a red eared slider?


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 28, 2006)

crackers said:


> can anyone pop up a pic of a red eared slider?



Hang on, I'll just pop out to the enclosure. BRB


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 28, 2006)

Here he is


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## NinaPeas (Mar 28, 2006)

where are these found in Aus? I dont think I have ever seen one


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## Dicco (Mar 28, 2006)

They're been discovered in Sydney and Brisbane.


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## Hickson (Mar 28, 2006)

SLACkra said:


> then come round to the area where i live. there is a population of about 7 alexandrine parakeets in the area, 2 breedinga dults and 5 youngin from various seasons. i know some one who lives nextdoor to the property which has a big euk on it that they nest in now and then(with fighting between them, other birds and possums)
> 
> i doupt there going to become an invasive pest but this just shows that even pet exotic birds can excape and breed. it is more likely that that will happen anyway as people regularly keep a pair of birds together and once they excape they won't seperate.








South American Conures in San Francisco. A feral population that appeared around 1990 with 26 birds, now numbering 160 +. 

This is from an online Parrot Newsletter, dated October 2004:

*I'm a wildlife biologist student at Humboldt State University and friends with Mark Bittner and others who look after the wild parrots of California from the Marin headwaters to San Diego. There are now 13 feral species of parrots found in California, not 10 as you stated, including roughly over 8,000 individuals. The species are: red-crowned parrots(Amazona virigenalis), lilac-crowned parrots (Amazona finschi), rose-ringed parakeets (Psiitacula krameri), mitred conures(Aratinga mitrata), red-masked conures(Aratinga erythrogenys), blue-crowned conures (Aratinga acuticaudata), canary-winged parakeets (Brotogeris versicolorus), yellow-cheveroned parakeets (Brotogeris chiriri), nanday conure (Aratinga nenday), red-lored parrots (Amazona autumnalis), blue-front parrots (Amazona aestiva), white-fronted parrots (Amazona albifrons), yellow-headed parrots (Amazona oratix), scarlet macaw (Ara macao) and military macaws (Ara militaris). 

Here are their locations in southern to central California: 

Bakersfield - 800-900 rose-ringed parakeets 
Fresno - 500-600 rose-ringed parakeets. 
Irvine/Northwood - over 1,000 red-masked conures, lilac-crown parrots, yellow-headed parrots and mitred conures. 
Malibu - 200-250 Nanday conures 
Orange County/Chapman campus - 60-70 mitred conures, 100-130 red-crowned parrots, 40-50 yellow-headed parrots 
Pasadena/Altadena/Temple City - over 2,000 red-crowned parrots, 400-500 lilac-crown parrots and yellow-chevroned parakeets 
San Diego - 120-130 red-masked parrots, lilac-crown parrots and mitred conures. 
Santa Ana - 30 yellow-crowned parrots. 
And in northern California: 

Berkeley/East Oakland - 200-300 red-masked conures with a few mitred conures (possibly defunct) 
Monterey - as yet unidentified species, perhaps lovebirds (near downtown). 
Palo Alto/Stanford - 40-50 red-masked conures and some mitred conures 
San Francisco - 140 red-masked conures (Ford Mason to Embarcadero); 52 canary-tipped parakeets (Mission to Dolores Park area); 10 African greys (Golden Gate Park area); 5 scarlet macaws (Nob Hill area). 
San Luis Obispo - 100 red-masked conures mixed with blue-headed conures and mitred conures.  
Santa Cruz - 120 red-masked conures; 65 canary-tipped parakeets; various unknown additional species as yet unidentified. 
Sunnyvale - 78-80 red-masked conures (downtown and southern part of city). 
In San Francisco, mitred conures and red-masked conures are nesting together and producing hybrids then double-hybrids. Sadly, we have lost 30 to 40 percent of the fledglings to viruses and predation. Regardless, in the last 14 years numbers have climbed from 45-50 parrots to at least 140. This year's count might bring the number to 200. Yellow-headed parrots seem to be declining as people are catching them for pets. Rose-winged parakeets are faring the best, spreading slowly north up Highway 5 and 99; they now total 1,500 - 2,000 in the central valley. For more information on parrot counts in California, e-mail me at [email protected]. 

--Craig Walters*

And that's just for California. Florida is just as bad, if not worse.



Hix


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## Moreliaman (Mar 29, 2006)

NCHERPS said:


> There is more than a single thread of evidence, red eared sliders and snake and lizard species have been proved to be able to pass on Salmonella (Being the most commonly heard of) to humans, last time I checked, we were Mammals! LOL!
> 
> 
> Cheers Neil



neil , the zoonoses you mentioned,including salmonella, arent just carried by reptile's , they can be carried by virtually every specie, and you have more chance of catching it from touching a cat or a dog ! (they lick their butt then lick themselves!) than reptiles.




Hix said:


> That doesn't make the suggestion invalid, just unlikely. You can't say that "because there is no evidence it can't happen", there's no evidence because maybe no-one has looked for it.


True, like the ailens under ayres rock yeah ?



Hix said:


> However, the ticks referred to in the paper were exotic to the USA and were found on the animals after they had passed quarantine inspections.


That just proves american quarantine did'nt do their job properly !



Hix said:


> It has happened already - OPMV, IBD, Reovirus etc.


Well what are you worried about then, if they are already there then you might as well go ahead and legalise exotics ! ( my personal opinion is that it should never happen )



peterjohnson64 said:


> Hang on, I'll just pop out to the enclosure. BRB.


Have you had a knock at the door yet peter ??? :wink:

If you need any more peter, Mr Bredli found this ad ! 
:lol: 3ft tank, 3ft UV light, fluval 4 internal filter, large zoomed turtle dock, all about 2 months old. Gravel, plants, 300w heater. Heaps of different turtle food. Red eared turtle about 6cm eats everything. Also 2 spare tanks 1 x 3ft, 1 x 4x1.5x1.5 ok for other reptiles. $350. email [email protected] or 0400 814 549


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## Hickson (Mar 29, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> Well what are you worried about then, if they are already there then you might as well go ahead and legalise exotics ! ( my personal opinion is that it should never happen )



If that's your opinion, why the hell are you argueing with us?????

:roll: 

Hix


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## Moreliaman (Mar 29, 2006)

Hix said:


> If that's your opinion, why the hell are you argueing with us?????
> 
> :roll:
> 
> Hix




Are you arguing with people then ? I thought we were having a discussion ? :?

You know, that thing where you put your points and opinions across to others and in turn listen to theirs..... :wink:

sorry Hix, i didnt realise you were getting that wound up about it ! :?


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## Parko (Mar 29, 2006)

Discussion/argument sometimes the lines are blurry. Why do you believe exotics shouldn't be allowed in Australia Moreliaman?


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## crackers (Mar 29, 2006)

thanks pete
couldnt bring the pic up at work for some reason
great looking fella im guessing they got on top of em before any serious spread ?


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 29, 2006)

hard to tell crackers wehn an academic publishes soemthign that says the discovery of a slider in Queanbeyan proves they are breeding?????


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## Scale_Addiction (Mar 29, 2006)

we had a natural lake near us emptied and netted for sliders, there were stacks of them in there, i can't understand how they got there without human intervention. i have heard a few cases of them breeding prolificly around SE QLD.


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## Moreliaman (Mar 30, 2006)

Parko said:


> Discussion/argument sometimes the lines are blurry. Why do you believe exotics shouldn't be allowed in Australia Moreliaman?


Parko, ive just stressed Hix out, so ill leave that one for another day :wink: 
Anyone else find it confusing that someone can have opinions for and against exotics in Australia, and still be 95% sure they should'nt be legalised ??


I know sliders can wander quite far to find new water,(usually on wet/rainy days) but keeping in mind the vast expanse of land you have there, i cant imagine them going too far, but they can survive our winters over here, so Australia must be like a holiday resort to them !


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## NCHERPS (Mar 30, 2006)

Moreliaman said:


> NCHERPS said:
> 
> 
> > There is more than a single thread of evidence, red eared sliders and snake and lizard species have been proved to be able to pass on Salmonella (Being the most commonly heard of) to humans, last time I checked, we were Mammals! LOL!
> ...


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## Retic (Mar 30, 2006)

Exactly what I have been saying for years. The animals that have become a problem have been animals sold in large numbers in pet shops, when they become unmanageable for whatever reason they are released. I doubt there has been a single infestation caused by the odd escaped animal, I am talking about a single animal escaping from a private collection and becoming a problem. 
Red ears are not an appropriate example as they were caused by being sold in large numbers in petshops and then released.
As it stands the trade in exotic reptiles goes on completely unabated and if people are happy with that then fine. 
I refuse to believe anyone is naive enough to think they will be eradictaed or even controlled without licensing.




Allan said:


> The "pest" herps in the world all stem from released animals, rather than escapees. Most pet shops in Europe and US sell herps without requiring a licence, no questions asked. Just like the Red eared slider situation a few decades back here in Australia. This practise attracts the impulsive buyers and some dump the animals in the wild after a while. We can now see the outcome of this, with populations of the slider getting a stromghold in some parts of Australia.
> If exotics were licenced it would be just as much of a risk (none) that keepers release their jungles, bredli's and blackheads as they will release their corn snakes rather than sell it.
> Instead we are stuck with the system where people can buy exotics without licence, no questions asked.


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## Moreliaman (Mar 31, 2006)

NCHERPS said:


> I tried to defend our hobby for years in the UK against the RSPCA and Animals rights groups trying to get all reptiles banned


We are still having problems with them now mate, they are a thorn in most pet keepers sides, I do find it strange however that the RSPCA over here support a total ban on the keeping of all pets ! because, if it came true, they'd be out of work !! wouldn’t they ~? :? 
They have also been trying to get any snake kept over 6 feet in length on licence, they also wanted the power to enter any property without police attendance if they suspected any acts of cruelty, and they have been influencing the government regarding a new Animal Welfare Bill which has just been passed through parliament, they've also just spent about 30 million on new offices, they spend about 25 million on advertising per year..Ive got a mountain of info on them here, infact I doubt you’ll find any reptile keeper that adores the RSPCA, we are all against them & do our bit (so to speak). The animal right nutters cause the odd problem, but they concentrate their efforts digging up the remains of relations that work for animal testing companies now ( they used to make the odd bomb threat, which incidentally I’d like to see them do now :lol: !)




NCHERPS said:


> you made a rather broad statement stating theirs no shread of evidence, and there unfortunately is


 Yeah but how broad do you want to go ? :lol: :wink: .



NCHERPS said:


> I have been over here for just over 3 years now,


(thanks...why not really rub it in & send me pictures of sun drenched beaches!! :wink: :lol: )


NCHERPS said:


> and have no interest in keeping exotic's, too many nice aussie species. However, I do miss the freedom of making the choice between so many more species, if I so choose.


Well you never know they may legalise exotics, who knows !. :wink: I reckon youve enough species there to keep me occupied for the rest of my life (however long or short that may be! :lol: )



NCHERPS said:


> One thing is clear, there is a huge number of exotic's over here, and something needs to be done in the way of licensing them other than just the amenesties that they have had in the past, unfortuately, even if that was done, some people who are unlicensed would not bother to pay the small fee to license them.


its the same for everything, you always get the handful that spoil it for the majority, Your government has a big task ahead of them concerning exotics & its going to be hard to sort something out that works, just by reading some of the discussions about it on here you can see why its a problem they'd prefer not to deal with right now!





NCHERPS said:


> When are you coming out here ??


I wish I could just drop everything and go but unfortunately as we all know its never as easy as that :cry: I’m getting a motorcycle test booked over here soon & then (as long as I pass) it shouldn’t be to long after that, should I twist fate & say (I hope) within the next few months ??
:?


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