# Venomous Lizards



## brad12212 (Jan 3, 2008)

I was looking on the internet when i stumbled onto this atricle about venomous lizards. It says that little bearded dragons ar evenomous. MUST READ!!!! ITS WEIRD

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1506321.htm

Cheers Brad


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## slacker (Jan 3, 2008)

I haven't looked at your link, but I'm assuming it's in reference to Fry's research. That was some very interesting research. It also explained and confirmed a couple of things I'd thought about slatey-grey's...


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## kakariki (Jan 3, 2008)

:shock: Good reading.Thanks for sharing!


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## wicked reptiles (Jan 3, 2008)

wow, now thats an interesting article!


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## ace#74 (Jan 3, 2008)

i heard that they have a compound in their saliva that is found in rattle snake venom


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## will.i.am (Jan 3, 2008)

Weird but seems true im suprised::shock: so that means my two little beardies are venormous hope that doesn't mean you can't keep them on a class 1 license:lol::lol:


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## DragonKeeper (Jan 3, 2008)

Beardies are venemous, but it isn't harmful to humans, Gila Monsters on the other hand...


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## Radar (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, thats been around for a while, its really pretty cool. I just hope your average joe bloe doesnt take it the wrong way....we might see people getting airlifted to hospital for a beardy bite...


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## slacker (Jan 3, 2008)

I might add to this thread as well, with the following. This was a response from Fry regarding venom in Stegonotus cucullatus:

_With the exception of the colubrids that have secondarily evolved new
forms of prey capture (e.g. powerful contriction) or switched prey that
doesn't require venom (e.g. to eggs or slugs), pretty much all of them
have it [venom] to a variable extent. Jaw power does come into play inversely
proportional to venom. So the 'bully feeders' like Ptyas, Drymarachon and
Pseustes have very small venom glands. Stegonotus still have a bit of
venom but uses it incombination with strong jaws that can do a lot of
damage to a frog. Its all variations on a theme.

_Interesting stuff, when you learn that your beardies and non-venomous colubrids actually have venom!


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## $NaKe PiMp (Jan 3, 2008)

i would like to see more detailed information than that crappy report
such as a paper written by someone with credibility

i have heard rumors of monitors having some sort of venom
but beardies?

anyone know of some more reliable resource ?

i am skeptical


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## [email protected] (Jan 3, 2008)

*dr bryan fry discovered*

it has been long held that only two of the worlds lizards species, confined to the usa and mexico, were venomous. But recent research has led to discovery that monitors,and some other lizards possess a venomous bite. The venom , designed to assist in subduing thier prey, is mild and not dangerous to humans. 
cheers steve


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## slacker (Jan 3, 2008)

Pimp: http://www.venomdoc.com/

Dr. Bryan Fry is the man who did the research. Check out his site for info. He's also got a forum if you want to contact him for more info.


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## BJC-787 (Jan 3, 2008)

the things that i have herd was that they are not venomous, but because they eat a lot of dead animals it is the bacteria in the mouth that causes problems, like the komodo dragon


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## jessb (Jan 4, 2008)

CASHO_B said:


> the things that i have herd was that they are not venomous, but because they eat a lot of dead animals it is the bacteria in the mouth that causes problems, like the komodo dragon


 
If you read the article, the author noted that the adverse reaction to lizard bites was too quick to be caused by bacteria, which is why he looked for other causes...


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## Sdaji (Jan 4, 2008)

ace#74 said:


> i heard that they have a compound in their saliva that is found in rattle snake venom



Humans have many compounds in their saliva which are also found in the saliva of all venomous snakes. According to Fry's story, there are venomous lizards which are vegetarian and have no major predators... c'mon, that's just silly! :lol: By the same principles that Fry describes (all that you need to be venomous is teeth and tissue-destroying enzymes in your saliva), you could say that every mammal (with the possible exception of things like whales) are venomous. People can even spit their venom!  There is perhaps some merit to what he is saying when it comes to monitors, but predominantly he is just twisting the story.


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## JasonL (Jan 4, 2008)

agree 100% Sdaji.


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## herptrader (Jan 4, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> it has been long held that only two of the worlds lizards species, confined to the usa and mexico, were venomous. But recent research has led to discovery that monitors,and some other lizards possess a venomous bite. The venom , designed to assist in subduing thier prey, is mild and not dangerous to humans.
> cheers steve




I have two books on my shelf at home dedicated to Monitor lizards and both volumes include sections on beaded lizards. Both books were published prior to Fry publishing his research.

Monitors and Beaded lizards (including the Gila monsters) seem to fairly closely related from an evolution and genetic perspective.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Jan 4, 2008)

-aspidites- said:


> Pimp: http://www.venomdoc.com/
> 
> Dr. Bryan Fry is the man who did the research. Check out his site for info. He's also got a forum if you want to contact him for more info.




ahh thanks,a more detailed explanation

but im inclined to side with sdaji and jason l on this one


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## ace#74 (Jan 4, 2008)

is it just one speacis of beardier or all of them


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## Chimera (Jan 4, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Humans have many compounds in their saliva which are also found in the saliva of all venomous snakes. According to Fry's story, there are venomous lizards which are vegetarian and have no major predators... c'mon, that's just silly! :lol: By the same principles that Fry describes (all that you need to be venomous is teeth and tissue-destroying enzymes in your saliva), you could say that every mammal (with the possible exception of things like whales) are venomous. People can even spit their venom!  There is perhaps some merit to what he is saying when it comes to monitors, but predominantly he is just twisting the story.



I think your twisting his words there Sdaji, I've read the paper and the conclusion isn't that Varanids or Agamids use the venom mechanism, simply that venom may have evolved earlier in squamate evolution then was previously hypothesised. The paper is more of an Evolutionary Biology paper then a Toxinology or animal behaviour paper.


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## Sdaji (Jan 4, 2008)

Chimera said:


> I think your twisting his words there Sdaji, I've read the paper and the conclusion isn't that Varanids or Agamids use the venom mechanism, simply that venom may have evolved earlier in squamate evolution then was previously hypothesised. The paper is more of an Evolutionary Biology paper then a Toxinology or animal behaviour paper.



He has been going around for years now saying that they use the venom to kill prey. There is no surprise at all if you find enzymes common to rattlesnakes and goannas - as I said, humans have enzymes in their saliva which are common to both goannas and rattlesnakes (and every other reptile). All known life is related, that's not new information. It has been known for a very long time that snakes evolved from lizards (in fact, snakes are a type of lizard). There's nothing at all new about that knowledge either.

If it was merely a case of determining relationships, no one would care, that sort of research is easy to carry out using analysis of heaps of different characteristics. What he is doing is making everyone say "Wow!" by misrepresenting information, in a (successful!) attempt to gain attention and funding.

What he is suggesting is like saying "Wow, if you look at the wings of birds and bats you can see that they both have common features, such as five digits! They must have evolved only once, they are so similar!". This is complete nonsense and it is decades, probably over a century since anyone has tried to make that suggestion. It may be possible that one common ancestor of all snakes was venomous, and evolution 'reinvented' it several separate times in snakes (this would be the equivalent of several different groups of snakes independantly evolving to have legs again). If that's the case it would be quite interesting. What he has said about all iguanas, dragons and colubrids being venomous is just plain silly, and is a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts in order to achieve his goals (I must admit, he has been quite successful in doing so!).


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## slacker (Jan 4, 2008)

Fair points.

I've some belief in his research, however. I could be misguided, but I'm not a scientist and so I put trust in those that are, rightly or wrongly.

My main reason for belief in his research is because of the behaviour of stegonotus cucullatus, and some symptoms I received after being bitten many times by them.

It is my belief (although I admit to still retaining doubts) that the "non-venomous" Stegonotus cucullatus are in fact very mildly venomous.

I owned a pair of these for a time in the past and received many bites. All bites I received were washed thoroughly shortly afterwards. Many of the bites subsequently showed symptoms, possibly of a very mild envenomation, possibly of infection. Said bites resulted in redness, mild blistering, itching, stinging and burning. Symptoms passed over about a week and none of them were anything more than a mild irritation.

At the same time, my then partner received bites from the same snakes. Her bites were not washed afterwards and she did not develop any symptoms at all.

This, of course, could be due to bacteria on the teeth of the animals, or in the saliva. My main reason for suspecting venom was their biting behaviour. Rather than striking in a defensive way typical of pythons, they would instead force their jaws over an area and chew heavily. I think this to be (and I'm by no means an expert, but it is my supposition) behaviourly indicative of a "rear-fang" venom delivery system.

With all of the above said, I'm probably wrong and it was probably bacteria, but it most definitely makes me wonder!


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## Tristis (Jan 4, 2008)

ive found monitor bites to sting, where as other lizards dont


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## callith (Jan 4, 2008)

very interesting, thanks


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