# Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!



## Morelia_Hunter (Jan 25, 2008)

Just an interesting piece of reading material. I like the way this author puts it. I copied it off carpetpythons.net

Question: (Outside of Australia) Should captive propagation of Morelia spilota subspecies be limited to pure individuals of a given subspecies?

In short, the answer is no. Keepers have no responsibility to breed similar subspecies, and in fact an argument could be made that for the purposes of maintaining snakes in captivity, crossing subspecies is to a small extent, beneficial. Further, acquiring or even identifying animals as pure is an impossibility. 

This is a complex issue. In simplifying it we can begin with the question:
“Why do some people maintain collections of snakes, specifically Morelia species?”

In the most general terms, keepers exist along a continuum spanning from strict herpetology to herpetoculture. Herpetology could be described as being interested in the science of the animals, while Herpetoculture treats the activity as more of an art form. 
Herpetology minded keepers would address the questions of taxonomy, ecology, biology, etc. Whereas those on the Herpetoculture end of the spectrum are more interested in discovering methods of maintenance, producing animals that thrive in the domestic habitat (including selective breeding for novel coloration), and maximizing reproductive effort. 

In my estimation, the vast majority of keepers in our current community would be best described as being closer to the herpetoculture side of the spectrum. As such, the goal is to produce quality ‘pet’ snakes, and not replicas of wild relatives. 
Obviously there is crossover, as the two influence each other, and very few keepers are going to be representatives of either extreme. 

If one is interested in the art/ herpetoculture aspects of the activity, then it is obvious that subspecies would often be bred with different subspecies in order to produce novel appearances. Hybrid vigor, or the tendency for genetic diversity to increase the capacity for adaptation in an animal may be another reason to cross subspecies for those interested in the artistic facets of keeping Morelia. Further, positive attributes of a given subspecies may be the reason for crossing various subspecies, in order to produce animals, which display the coveted facets of the subspecies. 

The science-oriented keepers have different goals. Many of the questions that a keeper could be investigating are just as easily addressed by an animal that is a sub specific cross, as they could be by a wild type animal. For example, in an inquiry related to Python biology, the differences between a mcdowelli type animal vs. a cheynei type animal are likely to be very slight. Indeed the only inquiries in which the purity of specimens in critical, is in inquiries that focus on comparing subspecies. This is where it becomes obvious that if the endeavors target comparative ecology, or comparative biology of subspecies, then the laboratory should be the animal’s natural habitat, and not the domestic habitat. 

US keepers of Morelia cannot answer scientific questions regarding these comparative questions. This is true for the following reasons:
Assuming that wild animals are regarded as Pure, no one to my knowledge maintains animals with PROOF of their origin. Proof would entail a photographic record of each animal involved, and 3rd party verification. Even this likely falls short of true proof. (Perhaps I am wrong, but is seems likely that this proof would have surfaced already). 
Having said this, wild animals are not verifiably pure. There are many possible avenues for animals to breed with different subspecies than themselves (birds of prey may drop animals outside of their native range,floods may transfer animals outside of their native range, or Humans may transport animals outside of their native range). 
Assuming that #1 and #2 were satisfied, the fact that the animals in question are many generations removed from their wild caught founding parents, natural selection has not taken place. Human selection is the driving force in these populations. Therefore these animals can no longer be considered representative of wild populations. 
These facts demonstrate that even if it were agreed that various subspecies should not be bred, it is impossible to guarantee that they have not been or will not be bred together. 

Additionally, in my view, the term ‘Pure’ is not very useful, and we would be better served by utilizing the term Wild Type.


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## CodeRed (Jan 25, 2008)

popcorn at the ready


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## Morelia_Hunter (Jan 25, 2008)

Not a thread for an argument again, just interesting and really well stated.


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## indicus (Jan 25, 2008)

Sorry MH; but what a load of Trollop


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## Glimmerman (Jan 25, 2008)

Very interesting read indeed. Thanks Morelia Hunter


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

Birds of prey dropping a live python outside of it's range.. lol.


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## TrueBlue (Jan 25, 2008)

i fully agree with indicus, its just a whole lot of gobbly gook to make up a weak excuse for breeding mongrel hybrids.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 25, 2008)

Haha, I read it and thought "Blah blah blah blah blah" but didn't want to say that...but everyone else has now so I will too...

Blah blah blah blah blah!


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## DragonKeeper (Jan 25, 2008)

I will never understand.

There is nothing wrong with Hybrid dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people!

What make herps so special?


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## Mangles (Jan 25, 2008)

Absolute load of rot. Sounds like somebody that has never even been to Australia talking about Australian Pythons in their natural habitat.


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## LJ77 (Jan 25, 2008)

I think hybrids are fine I've always wondered what a spotted and scrub hybrid would look like :shock:


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

Dragon keeper, all those crosses you mentioned are not native australian fauna. that's the differance


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## beeman (Jan 25, 2008)

TrueBlue said:


> i fully agree with indicus, its just a whole lot of gobbly gook to make up a weak excuse for breeding mongrel hybrids.


 
Couldnt agree more!


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## DragonKeeper (Jan 25, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> Dragon keeper, all those crosses you mentioned are not native australian fauna. that's the differance



Dogs, Dingos, they are crossed all of the time, it takes a lot of the aggression out so they can be used as pets.

And why are Australian animals more special then from other countries?

Cross bred dogs are much better than pures, If you do it right you can take out the bad and just mix the good from both with no hassles.


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## ace#74 (Jan 25, 2008)

my first snake was a hybrid i see not problems with it as long as they sold for what they are and some get be great looking


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## Forensick (Jan 25, 2008)

there is a difference between breed and species.


i think the article was refering to US pythons, where it is harder to identify purity, or get new blood.
so hardly applicable to australian keeping


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## lazybuddha (Jan 25, 2008)

thats just it hybrid dogs are bad


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## ozianimals (Jan 25, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> Birds of prey dropping a live python outside of it's range.. lol.


There was a thread asking about olive prices as the guy had an olive dropped by a bird near his house and now wants one.........So LOL yes that is possible......


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## ozianimals (Jan 25, 2008)

lazybuddha said:


> thats just it hybrid dogs are bad


The best behaved and the smartest dog I have ever owned was a cross staffy and cattle.....so I don't believe the above quote.


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## llasher (Jan 25, 2008)

Looks like a really long-winded way of saying "Why shouldn't hobby keepers cross-breed", could have made his point in 2 sentences rather than 20.


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## Chimera (Jan 25, 2008)

CodeRed said:


> popcorn at the ready



Send some my way Steve 

Hopefully no-one brings up Diamonds :lol:


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## DragonKeeper (Jan 25, 2008)

ozianimals said:


> The best behaved and the smartest dog I have ever owned was a cross staffy and cattle.....so I don't believe the above quote.



Same here, mine is Kelpie X Aussie Sheepdog.

Can anyone name, without all of the crap, just straight simple answers.

One bad thing about hybrids? (other than increased health risk etc.)


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

The only time birds carry live animals is when taking them to a fledgling chick, (otherwise they are dispatched and consumed fairly quickly) I don't think many nesting birds fly too far to feed chicks, at least not far enough to move through a prey item's natural range. But you never know.


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## The-Guy (Jan 25, 2008)

> There is nothing wrong with Hybrid dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people!



I agree, in some ways, but people dont cross breed with sub-species, different skin colours are simply like differently regioned pythons, is it really a hybrid to breed a SA stimmy with a georgetown stimmy?

according to science for humans to be hybrids someone would have to have sex with an ape...
although there are some wierd ppl out there, maybe it has happened, but i'd rather not think of that...


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

That's why they charge the big bucks for mongrel dogs.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 25, 2008)

DragonKeeper said:


> I will never understand.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Hybrid dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people!
> 
> What make herps so special?


 
Dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people do not hybridise as they are the one species. Hybridising in reptiles crosses that line, where people are putting species like _Morelia bredli_ over _Morelia spilota_, _Antaresia maculosa_ over _Antaresia stimsoni. _With dogs, it is just _Canis lupus familiaris_ over _Canis lupus familiaris _which is similar to breeding a striped Jungle to a banded Jungle - same species, but they look different.


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## The-Guy (Jan 25, 2008)

oh and with the thing about birds, on my holiday to cape york, we saw 12 snakes, only 3 were on the ground...


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## The-Guy (Jan 25, 2008)

> Dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people do not hybridise as they are the one species. Hybridising in reptiles crosses that line, where people are putting species like Morelia bredli over Morelia spilota, Antaresia maculosa over Antaresia stimsoni. With dogs, it is just Canis lupus familiaris over Canis lupus familiaris which is similar to breeding a striped Jungle to a banded Jungle - same species, but they look different.


last time i checked, canis is the third one up, as is what ever python is, then comes reptile and mammal...


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## jessb (Jan 25, 2008)

LJ77 said:


> I think hybrids are fine I've always wondered what a spotted and scrub hybrid would look like :shock:


 
At a guess, it would look like a scrubby with a little lump in it...


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## The-Guy (Jan 25, 2008)

so cross breeding dogs isnt like cross breeding pythons, its like cross breeding snakes, and last i checked, elapids and pythons dont breed...


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

Dog breeds all started with the one species, over hundreds of years they where bred (by humans)to bring out certain traits. People don't want to wait and line breed to get differant looking animals anymore, they want 1 breeding to create a differant looking animal.


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## JungleRob (Jan 25, 2008)

I personally don't have a problem with it if people were honest as to what they were selling. Do you really think people are going to sell a bright yellow perfectly jungle looking carpet as crossbreed if it's 75% diamond? I don't think many people would admit to it.

Is the Jungle on the cover of Dave Barkers, Pythons of the world Vol.1 'PURE'? How do you know? (I don't know the answer, have heard it's not from reliable sources but would never say for sure)

To the best of my knowledge I know, or can easily find out, the locality of ALL the snakes in my collection bar 1 but I would NEVER sell an animal as a PURE ( .... ) as I cannot prove it.

Whether you like it or not designer pythons are going to take off in Australia. Let's just hope people will be honest about what they're selling.

HAPPY HERPING!!!


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## cockney red (Jan 25, 2008)

*Load of old cods.*


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 25, 2008)

The-Guy said:


> so cross breeding dogs isnt like cross breeding pythons, its like cross breeding snakes, and last i checked, elapids and pythons dont breed...


 
G'day The-Guy,

I'm far from a taxonomical authority, but you're understanding of nomenclature is a little misguided. Animals are classified in the following order - 

Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Sub Order
Family
Genus
Species
Subspecies

The latin names of animals goes "Genus species subspecies"...for example, "Oxyuranus scutellatus canni". Oxyuranus = genus, scutellatus = species, canni = subspecies. 

Dogs are all one species (or subspecies to be..well, more specific) - "Canis lupus familiarlis". As I said, crossbreeding dogs is like putting two different coloured Jungles together - same species, they just look different.


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## urodacus_au (Jan 25, 2008)

What a load of poop. You should probably leave it at that too 'The Guy', your digging that hole deeper and deeper :lol: Its not hybridising when theyre the same species, do a little research before attempting to put forward an arguement eh? 

Jordan


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## DragonKeeper (Jan 25, 2008)

Jonno from ERD said:


> G'day The-Guy,
> 
> I'm far from a taxonomical authority, but you're understanding of nomenclature is a little misguided. Animals are classified in the following order -
> 
> ...



I get it, so breeding Varanus Acanthurus with Pogona Vitticeps is Hybrid, but Varanus Tristis and Varanus Acanthurus or Pogona Vitticeps and Pogona Minor Minor is not?


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 25, 2008)

No, cross breeding anything that is different at the subspecific level is hybridising.


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## JungleRob (Jan 25, 2008)

ie. Morelia spilota spilota x Morelia spilota cheynei = hybridising.


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## urodacus_au (Jan 25, 2008)

Same subspecies, not a hybrid. People go even further than the subspecies level, not liking to cross individuals within the same species from different locales. Thats a different story altogether though....

Jordan


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 25, 2008)

What Jordan mentions is the perfect way of maintaining captive animals as pure as possible. Regardless of what taxonomical changes are made, if you breed animals from the same area, they are always going to remain pure to whatever species they are assigned to in the future.


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## snakelvr (Jan 25, 2008)

I agree with 'ace'. One of my first snakes was a hybrid (or more specifically- a variegated). She was the most beautiful snake you could imagine, in both looks and behaviour. She taught many school children about our lovely pythons and that not all snakes are 'bad'. Many of those kids now have pythons of their own. 
I find it quite amusing that some people out there get their nose so crookedly out-of-joint over such a trivial matter. :lol:
Treat every snake as an individual, see their merits.
Remember the old adage - 'Nobody's Perfect'.
But i do agree - what a load of codswollop!!


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## ozianimals (Jan 25, 2008)

So what would you breed an intergrage with? a diamond or a carpet.......or are they a different subspecies due to location.......??????

What about the jack-*** Cross of a horse and a donkey...2 different species bred to create a new species.........why is this possible with some animals but not others??????


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## Australis (Jan 25, 2008)

ozianimals said:


> So what would you breed an intergrage with? a diamond or a carpet.......or are they a different subspecies due to location.......??????



Well, how about another "intergrade", so crazy it just might work eh...


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## Sdaji (Jan 25, 2008)

If you hybridise snakes they turn into martians who will steal your car, so it's bad.

I win, right? We're all having a competition to see who can produce the most ridiculous post, right?


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## peterjohnson64 (Jan 25, 2008)

Imagine creating a beautiful natural looking set up to show off your wonderful collection of Australian native animals only to find out ................

Oh, and as for natural selection - well, mynah birds and cane toads are taking good care of that so that is a crap argument as well.


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't know Sdaji I think you might have tied.


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## urodacus_au (Jan 25, 2008)

Like Jonno said, breeding by location in most cases will guarantee the purity of your animals in the long run. People tend to forget that taxonomy is a classification system put in place by humans, not nature itself. The best we can do is make educated guesses at this point as to how to classify and group these animals, with opinions varying from taxonomist to taxonomist. With the introduction of DNA sequencing its taking a little of the guess work out but theres still a long way to go. Our undertstanding of the natural world is constantly evolving, theres bound to be many changes made in future as new theories are tested and more insight gained......and thats the extent of my knowledge on taxonomy :lol:

Anyway, steering away from the subject a bit, where were we? Oh yeah....what a load of poop :lol:
Jordan


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## Mangles (Jan 25, 2008)

Sdaji,

Unfortunately your post makes more sense the most.


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## ozianimals (Jan 25, 2008)

Australis said:


> Well, how about another "intergrade", so crazy it just might work eh...


Just curious as they are not coastals or diamonds they are a morph between the 2, from what I understand, and therefor a totally different subspecies naturally occuring between the two locations. That would mean that every intergrade would be a different subspecies which looking at this thread would be a no no.......So if we are going to the nitty gritty of it another intergrade puts it in the possible hybrid region and not liked....


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 25, 2008)

ozianimals,

You are correct. There is no defined line between where many subspecies start, and where they stop. Some academics even argue that subspecies are far too variable to accurately describe them taxonomically. For this reason, breeding animals true to their locality is highly advantageous.


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## ozianimals (Jan 25, 2008)

Sorry to hijack the thread but.....
Jonno just curios as I have a legally WC coastal (as it is on the books) but I think it is an intergrade which would mean that I have to go back to the same area as the original to get a proper mate for her is that right?


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## LJ77 (Jan 25, 2008)

snakelvr said:


> I agree with 'ace'. One of my first snakes was a hybrid (or more specifically- a variegated). She was the most beautiful snake you could imagine, in both looks and behaviour. She taught many school children about our lovely pythons and that not all snakes are 'bad'. Many of those kids now have pythons of their own.
> I find it quite amusing that some people out there get their nose so crookedly out-of-joint over such a trivial matter. :lol:
> Treat every snake as an individual, see their merits.
> Remember the old adage - 'Nobody's Perfect'.
> But i do agree - what a load of codswollop!!



Writting in green is bad


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

No it means you shouldn't breed it...


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

And yes green writing is bad, I think I had a seizure trying to make out the words!


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## Kali7 (Jan 25, 2008)

ROFL...... the crap falling depends on what you personally and subjectively think stinks. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong. 

If something can interbreed and have breeding offspring, then they are obviously the same species anyway. I suppose all people that pledge death to hybrids also start protesting at intermarriage of humans as well. 

And lastly, what makes a species stronger? Interbreeding or an ever larger population with different traits? Gee must be rocket science.


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## ozianimals (Jan 25, 2008)

If you only think you had a seizure then you should stop rolling around on the floor while you are reading.


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## jessb (Jan 25, 2008)

ozianimals said:


> So what would you breed an intergrage with? a diamond or a carpet.......or are they a different subspecies due to location.......??????
> 
> What about the jack-*** Cross of a horse and a donkey...2 different species bred to create a new species.........why is this possible with some animals but not others??????


 
An *** is just another term for a donkey - not a hybrid/cross or anything... I think you are thinking of a mule.

Mules, Ligers and Tigons (lion/tiger crosses) and similar are usually infertile which suggests maybe nature has a problem with such crosses...


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## caustichumor (Jan 25, 2008)

I can see why some people want hybrids, we live in Australia! Our reptile hobby is restricted to Australian animals.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 25, 2008)

Kali7 said:


> ROFL...... the crap falling depends on what you personally and subjectively think stinks. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong.
> 
> If something can interbreed and have breeding offspring, then they are obviously the same species anyway. I suppose all people that pledge death to hybrids also start protesting at intermarriage of humans as well.
> 
> And lastly, what makes a species stronger? Interbreeding or an ever larger population with different traits? Gee must be rocket science.


 
So Woma's and Carpets are the same species? Water Pythons and Scrubs? Colletts and Mulga/Spotted Blacks? Pogona vitticeps and Pogona barbata? Antaresia maculosa/childreni/stimsoni? Acanthophis wellsi and Acanthophis pyrrhus? Acanthophis antarcticus and Acanthophis praelongus? Hoplocephalus stephensi/bungaroides/bitorquatus? They're all obviously the same species?

Your analogy of hybridising as been the same as mixed-race marriages was disproved several posts ago.


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## cockney red (Jan 25, 2008)

*I know, its such a handicap. I would love some grass from the other side of the fence. It looks so much Greener.*


caustichumor said:


> I can see why some people want hybrids, we live in Australia! Our reptile hobby is restricted to Australian animals.


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## urodacus_au (Jan 25, 2008)

Your extremely arrogant for someone who makes absolutely no sense Kali :lol: Humans are the same species, why are so many people having problems with the 'breeding the same species isnt hybridisation' issue?

According to the Biological Species Concept if two animals can breed and produce viable offspring they are the same species. In the case of these animals they havent speciated to an extent where theire uncompatible. The way i see it subspecies may be able to produce viable offspring, but thats doesnt mean that they should be crossed. I look at the subspecies label as a way of showing that an animal is very similar to other within the species but makes it known that the particular 'varient' is speciating and taking its own evolutionary path. Everyone has their opinions of whats right and wrong, personally i like my animals pure to locality. My knowledge of taxonomy is seriously floored, but this is the way i understand it.

Each to their own, i just see hybrids ruining the hobby and muddying the already murky water for those that choose to remain true to type.
Jordan


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 25, 2008)

The initial text is a poorly thought out croc of .... And I've never seen so many stupid posts in only 5 pages. Why do people find this concept of species/subspecies soooo hard to fathom? We won't stop hybridising, simply because there are so many stupid and/or greedy people out there, who have absolutely no understanding of the implications of their actions.

Jamie.


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## ozianimals (Jan 25, 2008)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The initial text is a poorly thought out croc of .... And I've never seen so many stupid posts in only 5 pages. Why do people find this concept of species/subspecies soooo hard to fathom? We won't stop hybridising, simply because there are so many stupid and/or greedy people out there, who have absolutely no understanding of the implications of their actions.
> 
> Jamie.


The reason is because reptiles seems to be the main animal that has subspecies rather than leaving it at a species where most animals leave it at a species and then seperate into breed such as dogs cats and horses. this makes things easier to understand and hence the confusion here. Thanks to Jonno from ERD I have less trouble with understanding this now, but as a newby this can be hard to understand especially if you have no science knoweledge......


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## Sdaji (Jan 25, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> I don't know Sdaji I think you might have tied.





Mangles said:


> Sdaji,
> 
> Unfortunately your post makes more sense the most.



I think you might actually have valid points.

Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.

Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! :shock: Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?


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## Pocket Lizard (Jan 25, 2008)

All the discussion seems to be on pythons. What about lizards? How long is it going to be before people get bored with the Nephrurus levis subspecies and start cross-breeding them to try and produce different looking things? 

While I agree that on this topic it is probably "to each their own", I would like to think that my grandkids, like me, should be able to buy a genuine N. levis pilbarensis should they decide they love that subspecies.


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## CodeRed (Jan 25, 2008)

Pocket Lizard said:


> All the discussion seems to be on pythons. What about lizards? How long is it going to be before people get bored with the Nephrurus levis subspecies and start cross-breeding them to try and produce different looking things?
> 
> While I agree that on this topic it is probably "to each their own", I would like to think that my grandkids, like me, should be able to buy a genuine N. levis pilbarensis should they decide they love that subspecies.


 

They have already done that with P. vitticeps and P. lawsoni. Mungrel things go by the trade name of vittikins. At least they are easy to spot based on adult size.


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## Chimera (Jan 25, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I think you might actually have valid points.
> 
> Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.
> 
> Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! :shock: Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?



HAHA, concrete proof that specious reasoning is much more fun then scientific reasoning


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## Miss B (Jan 25, 2008)

Yep and the Germans also cross-bred P. vitticeps and P. barbata to create what they call 'German Giants'. These were then imported into American to inject some size into their beardies. As a result, many American pet beardies are P. vitticeps with some amount of barbata in their blood.


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## Sdaji (Jan 25, 2008)

Pocket Lizard said:


> How long is it going to be before people get bored with the Nephrurus levis subspecies and start cross-breeding them to try and produce different looking things?



If you'd asked me this about five years ago and at the time I had the ability to see into the future, I'd have said "About two years". It may have been done earlier than I'm aware of. The hybrids look intermediate, they're nothing special at all, they're less interesting than a pure of either of the parental subspecies. They're usually produced because people only have a mate of a different subspecies to use, or they are unsure of what they have. It's unusual for people to deliberately cross them, and you'd be fairly silly to. There are already mongrels going around as pure, which is why I bought some wild caught ones while I still had the legal opportunity.


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## horsenz (Jan 25, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I think you might actually have valid points.
> 
> Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.
> 
> Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! :shock: Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?



sdaji is that you getting out your whit coat to hide behind again:shock: have the aliens released you


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## blackghost (Jan 25, 2008)

Chimera said:


> Send some my way Steve
> 
> Hopefully no-one brings up Diamonds :lol:


 

SPEAKING OF DIAMONDS....nah, just kidding (as he dangles his lure and holds a bag of 
popcorn, he waits patiently for a bite)


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## cement (Jan 25, 2008)

I reckon that there is a little percentage of herpers, or should I now say herpetoculturists/ artists( what a joke) who are getting into pythons to make big dollars. But is there really a lot of money to be made from breeding wild type/ locality specific pythons these days? There is a lot more people breeding now then there was 10 years ago. And a lot of stock is a lot of work. So we enter the age of the morph. Morphs attract higher prices and people like a different looking snake, this could be the catalyst that drives the little money hungry percentage to hybridising/ bastardising.


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## Sdaji (Jan 25, 2008)

The aliens let me out on day trips sometimes. I like day trips, I get to eat people food.


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## stusnake (Jan 25, 2008)

DragonKeeper said:


> Dogs, Dingos, they are crossed all of the time, it takes a lot of the aggression out so they can be used as pets.
> 
> And why are Australian animals more special then from other countries?
> 
> Cross bred dogs are much better than pures, If you do it right you can take out the bad and just mix the good from both with no hassles.



Ive worked with pure bred dingos for years and am yet to see this 'agression' you speak of.
I dont have a problem with cross bred dogs, some of my best dogs over the years have been crossed, like wise one of my best was a dingo.
Ive seen quite a fewcross breeds ot there that are absolutley feral compared to many pure breeds. What makes Australian animals more special? there ours, we should be proud of them.


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## horsenz (Jan 25, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> The aliens let me out on day trips sometimes. I like day trips, I get to eat people food.




people food like a bbq and beer:shock:


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## ad (Jan 25, 2008)

stusnake said:


> What makes Australian animals more special? there ours, we should be proud of them.




Buy this man a beer.


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## Slateman (Jan 25, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> I think you might actually have valid points.
> 
> Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.
> 
> Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! :shock: Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?



some people have problem to walk through the door occasionally. One part of the body just can't get through.
Sadji, we all know that you are smart young man, but many much smarter people do have modesty as part of it.
There is no need to put down kids and people who don't reach top of IQ test.:lol: Sorry, I could not resist to comment.


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## Jozz (Jan 25, 2008)

horsenz said:


> people food like a bbq and beer:shock:


 
And olives


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 25, 2008)

Well this might be a stupid question but i will ask anyway
Are Jags carpet we see from overseas site hybrids? they don't look nothing like our australian
carpets that i've seen and they call them coastals??????


Leigh


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## cement (Jan 25, 2008)

Slateman said:


> some people have problem to walk through the door occasionally. One part of the body just can't get through.
> 
> Heeheehee!


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## jay76 (Jan 25, 2008)

moreliainsanity said:


> Well this might be a stupid question but i will ask anyway
> Are Jags carpet we see from overseas site hybrids? they don't look nothing like our australian
> carpets that i've seen and they call them coastals??????
> 
> ...



I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair


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## Simple (Jan 25, 2008)

jay76 said:


> I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair



The original Jag line was from a coastal to coastal mating.


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## jay76 (Jan 26, 2008)

Simple said:


> The original Jag line was from a coastal to coastal mating.



who cares about original, Jags are all now crossed


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## aspidito (Jan 26, 2008)

As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one. 
Its so ironic that we are envied by the Americans & Europeans because the majority of our animals are pure blood true locality specific, they have no idea where their Australian herps originated from as over the years they have been so mixed up, they would kill for a pair of pure Uluru womas etc & yet we envy them for the huge array of albinos, coloured morphs & hybrids that are available. No matter what peoples views are we will follow the overseas trend & hybrids will be in demand & like everything else if you dont keep up you will be left behind, I can see a time when (this is purely hypothetical) that 'Snake ranch' will have specials on Striped Darwin X Bredli albinos, too far away you think, well elsewhere its already been done!. I just hope that we dont make the same mistake & that 20 years down the track when we have all the hybrids under the sun we still have all of our pure locality specific animals to replace the ones that have been lost in collections & wiped out in the wild.
Food for thought, scary for some & cant wait for others.


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## Midol (Jan 26, 2008)

DragonKeeper said:


> I will never understand.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Hybrid dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people!
> 
> What make herps so special?



Wrong.

All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.

ETA: Expanding on this with cattle, cross bred cattle are not bred to be healthy. This is hybrid vigour in the flesh. They are crossed to create meat cows FAST. To reach adult size FAST and in doing this they sacrifice the HEALTH of the animal. So many people overlook this when comparing other animals to cattle. So really, comparing reptiles or dogs to cattle should only be done if you intend to eat your animals.

We should always be promoting our animals in the best manner possible. Creating a hybrid is creating a designer snake, a snake designed by humans for humans. Created only for money. That's a big issue for me, animals such as dogs, snakes and other animals that are not bred in agriculture should be bred for sound animals conforming to the standards of the animal and genetically sound.


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## ExecutiveReptiles (Jan 26, 2008)

I havn't had time to read ALL the replies, but I actually know the author of the original post, it was copied and pasted as a new post from another forum, and the forum title was Purity Debate. 

The original author is well known for his stance on being able to do whatever you want with whatever you want....and to make it clear he is in the United States and was refering to U.S. captive breeding of Australian pythons.

My personal opinion...

The issue many so called "Purists" have is that we have a VERY limited gene pool of what we all consider "Pure".....and it seems the term "Pure" upsets many people....and I really think they are taking the term "Pure" out of context in a way...

What the term Pure means to me is something that does not have purposley mixed blood in it....we all basically in our minds at least here in the States have this mental picture of what each subspecies of Morelia looks like...we might have our own little tweek of what we like, but there are general characteristics that we all can agree on that make up each subspecies...ie...what are the characteristics that make a Classic Coastal different than say a Diamond or a Bredl's....

Sure NONE of us have proof of anything...but with our limited gene pool all we can do is continue to try and recreate these "Natural" differences...But recently say in the past 10 years...there has been this massive trend to try and create something new...people seem tired of selective breeding for color or trying to make the best example of that subspecies...and now its all about what can we create...

Now I have no problem with extreme hybrid/intergrades....ones that look really strange/unique/different....can't be confused with any certain subspecies...What I have a problem with is the high % hybrids/intergrades...ones that have been bred to almost resemble a certain subspecies...

I think that is the biggest hardship for so called "purits"...there are many examples...Bredl's and Diamonds come to mind...There are people who work with high percentage diamonds...ones that are JunglexDiamond crosses, or CoastalxDiamond crosses...now at the 50% range...most of the time its more obvious...but when they start breeding those 50% to say another diamond...and producing 75%ers....and then again to make 88%.....they start looking more and more like true Diamonds....

Now Diamonds seem to be one of the more harder to get species here in the states...now we have to battle if they truely are real diamonds....I have had MANY friends who purcahsed diamonds as Diamonds...be knocked as not being pure....So people might knock purests...but there is a reason...many are so vocal...

What purists do...in breeding for certain natural looks....ie "Pure"....is they try and keep things pure...no other way of putting it....it does nothing to hurt anyone...but ensure that future generations of herpetoculturists can have the oppertunity to work with Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds, and Bredl's.....where when people breed whatever to whatever...those offspring go into the US gene pool of muddiness...where post after post say "I just got this Carpet...what is it?"....then we have to guess what it most looks like....time and time again...to the point where many times morelia subspecies are just labeled "Carpet Python" and not given any subspecies identification...cause nobody knows...its just a mutt...aka "Carpet Python"....

I have kept both hybrid/intergrades and so called "Pure" or Natural look....and I have many friends who work with both...and its a debate the has no end...it will keep going forver .....or at least untill Australia drops the export ban...lol

Its funny as the most vocal of both sides, never stop to see each others side...the future as I see it is the Hybrid/Intergrade keepers and breeders will continue to do what they do, and the so called "Purists" will just have to deal with the unkown...and continue to try and recreate those characteristics that make that natural look or as they call it "Pure Look"...

Breeding for the "Purest" you can get doesn't hurt anyone down the road...but the known mass production of crosses/hybrids/intergrades....does affect the ability of "Purists" down the road.....We can't get fresh bloodlines here in the states, If someone wants say....a Diamond they have to take the word of the breeder that his stock is "pure" diamond...and not just high%JunglexDiamond crosses....

But To each his own....Sorry for the long post..


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2008)

*NUFF SAID.*


aspidito said:


> As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one.
> Its so ironic that we are envied by the Americans & Europeans because the majority of our animals are pure blood true locality specific, they have no idea where their Australian herps originated from as over the years they have been so mixed up, they would kill for a pair of pure Uluru womas etc & yet we envy them for the huge array of albinos, coloured morphs & hybrids that are available. No matter what peoples views are we will follow the overseas trend & hybrids will be in demand & like everything else if you dont keep up you will be left behind, I can see a time when (this is purely hypothetical) that 'Snake ranch' will have specials on Striped Darwin X Bredli albinos, too far away you think, well elsewhere its already been done!. I just hope that we dont make the same mistake & that 20 years down the track when we have all the hybrids under the sun we still have all of our pure locality specific animals to replace the ones that have been lost in collections & wiped out in the wild.
> Food for thought, scary for some & cant wait for others.


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2008)

*Is this what we aspire to. Although some would say we're already there, we could certainly be there very quickly if we're not careful.:|*


ExecutiveReptiles said:


> I havn't had time to read ALL the replies, but I actually know the author of the original post, it was copied and pasted as a new post from another forum, and the forum title was Purity Debate.
> 
> The original author is well known for his stance on being able to do whatever you want with whatever you want....and to make it clear he is in the United States and was refering to U.S. captive breeding of Australian pythons.
> 
> ...


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## moreliainsanity (Jan 26, 2008)

jay76 said:


> I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair


 
Thanks for the info jay76, So are they available in australia? if so what price tag would they sell for? being hybrids then they would not attract purist herpers, am i correct on this one?


Leigh


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## junglepython2 (Jan 26, 2008)

moreliainsanity said:


> Thanks for the info jay76, So are they available in australia? if so what price tag would they sell for? being hybrids then they would not attract purist herpers, am i correct on this one?
> 
> 
> Leigh


 
As the mutation came about overseas, they are not legally available in Australia and unless import rules change technically never will. However I'm sure they will start popping up sooner or later at inflated prices.


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## CGSwans (Jan 26, 2008)

My snake is a hybrid. I say it's a Stimson's because that's what he looks more like, but one of the parents was a Spotted Python. I got him cheap because it was a hybrid - the breeder was just starting out, had an adult Spotted and an adult Stimson's and bred them to see how he went. He got three eggs, one of them hatched and so my snake is the only result. 

I don't mind having a hybrid snake. He's got a wonderful disposition, he's got decent markings and he's very hardy. However, when I brought him I knew that it would be immoral of me to breed from him further. So he's purely a 'pet' snake. I'd like to breed snakes (and monitors and dragons) one day, but if my Houdini (he got his name as a hatchling for his uncanny ability to end up outside his cage  ) is still with me when/if that happens, I guess he'll just have to watch others having the fun.


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## jay76 (Jan 26, 2008)

CGSwans said:


> My snake is a hybrid. I say it's a Stimson's because that's what he looks more like, but one of the parents was a Spotted Python. I got him cheap because it was a hybrid - the breeder was just starting out, had an adult Spotted and an adult Stimson's and bred them to see how he went. He got three eggs, one of them hatched and so my snake is the only result.
> 
> I don't mind having a hybrid snake. He's got a wonderful disposition, he's got decent markings and he's very hardy. However, when I brought him I knew that it would be immoral of me to breed from him further. So he's purely a 'pet' snake. I'd like to breed snakes (and monitors and dragons) one day, but if my Houdini (he got his name as a hatchling for his uncanny ability to end up outside his cage  ) is still with me when/if that happens, I guess he'll just have to watch others having the fun.



I think up untill a few years ago they were sold as the same snake in QLD pet shops


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## Kirby (Jan 26, 2008)

caustichumor said:


> Dog breeds all started with the one species, over hundreds of years they where bred (by humans)to bring out certain traits. People don't want to wait and line breed to get differant looking animals anymore, they want 1 breeding to create a differant looking animal.



make that thousands + years. 

the egyptians had long thin and tall dogs. they even made one of their dogs resemble this animal. ibizan and pharoh hound. 

asia created the push face, very common in small dogs, pug etc. etc. 

and then you have the english lap dogs. 

most would have come from your basic 'wild dog' etc. and over many thousands of years been bred for traits of hair longth, style colour, size, energy, personality, looks, facial and body features.. etc. etc. 

edgyptianand peruvian cats are being bred with housholds, to creat the leopard look. is this not shamefull? 

i dont see much problem in german giants, beign p. vitticeps and p. barbata. it can strengthen, lengthen and build the future animals. this trait is ery much saught after overseas. would this not be shamed here? 

diamonds and coastals can look nice, although i wouldnt want one. 

snakes will and can travel in search of food, birds can fly them off to other places, some perhaps kilometers at a time. and who's to say a gravid diamond wont land in amoungst a coastal regeon. 

the biggest problem is trust and correct labeling or specimens. who' sto say it is, isnt hybrid..


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## Sdaji (Jan 26, 2008)

aspidito said:


> As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one.



I will never knock someone simply because they are a newbie, or they have limited knowledge, but people don't learn by trying to convince others of their beliefs. What I find amusing and perhaps a little frustrating is uninformed people trying to inform others. You learn by listening to others who are experts in their field, not making stuff up and trying to convince people of whatever random thing you happened to come up with. As with everyone else, I started out with no knowledge of genetics. I didn't learn about genetics by trying to convince similarly inexperienced people of my randomly constructed beliefs, I read books, scientific journals, and studied at university for several years. If I tell others of my opinions on the subject, it is because I have learned something worth talking about. Where I don't know I will either shut up and listen to those who do, or I will ask questions. There are plenty of times when I find myself in that situation. If I had gone to my genetics lectures and tried to shout the lecturer down with nonsense, claiming that my ideas about genetics were as valid as his, and the other students did the same, none of us would have learned anything. If people stayed quiet unless they had solid, reliable information to share, we could all easily learn without sorting through misinformation which we couldn't distinguish from the good stuff.

If we must accept untruths in order to avoid 'knocking newbies', well, goodness help us! I accepting untruths and misinformation is the way the reptile world goes about informing itself, well, goodness help the state of captive reptiles!

Okay, now that you all think I'm the most arrogant person you've ever read a post from, I'll leave you to it


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2008)

*As always priceless. But very true. It would however have foreshortened a very entertaining thread.*


Sdaji said:


> I will never knock someone simply because they are a newbie, or they have limited knowledge, but people don't learn by trying to convince others of their beliefs. What I find amusing and perhaps a little frustrating is uninformed people trying to inform others. You learn by listening to others who are experts in their field, not making stuff up and trying to convince people of whatever random thing you happened to come up with. As with everyone else, I started out with no knowledge of genetics. I didn't learn about genetics by trying to convince similarly inexperienced people of my randomly constructed beliefs, I read books, scientific journals, and studied at university for several years. If I tell others of my opinions on the subject, it is because I have learned something worth talking about. Where I don't know I will either shut up and listen to those who do, or I will ask questions. There are plenty of times when I find myself in that situation. If I had gone to my genetics lectures and tried to shout the lecturer down with nonsense, claiming that my ideas about genetics were as valid as his, and the other students did the same, none of us would have learned anything. If people stayed quiet unless they had solid, reliable information to share, we could all easily learn without sorting through misinformation which we couldn't distinguish from the good stuff.
> 
> If we must accept untruths in order to avoid 'knocking newbies', well, goodness help us! I accepting untruths and misinformation is the way the reptile world goes about informing itself, well, goodness help the state of captive reptiles!
> 
> Okay, now that you all think I'm the most arrogant person you've ever read a post from, I'll leave you to it


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## OzExcalibur (Jan 26, 2008)

I just want a venomous MD


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## peterjohnson64 (Jan 26, 2008)

From what I understand, in Australia we have the following types of Carpet Pythons: Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles, Murray Darlings, Darwins, Bredli and Imbricata. All of these animals can interbreed and produce fertiel offspring. Even the people in the states are saying that their animals are whatever percentage diamond and whatever percentage coastal etc. This all requires someone to knwo what the parents are to make that claim. 

Do you like having all these different types of Carpet Pythons? I do. And I want to keep it that way.

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

As opposed to the States, we dont have a limited gene pool of each individual sub species in Australia. If we want to continue to keep having these different sub species then the ONLY way to do that is to stop hybridising.

So sure, if you want to develop snakes that you can merely advertise as a snake then go for it. If, however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.


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## cockney red (Jan 26, 2008)

*Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:*


peterjohnson64 said:


> From what I understand, in Australia we have the following types of Carpet Pythons: Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles, Murray Darlings, Darwins, Bredli and Imbricata. All of these animals can interbreed and produce fertiel offspring. Even the people in the states are saying that their animals are whatever percentage diamond and whatever percentage coastal etc. This all requires someone to knwo what the parents are to make that claim.
> 
> Do you like having all these different types of Carpet Pythons? I do. And I want to keep it that way.
> 
> ...


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## Stevo (Jan 26, 2008)

cockney red said:


> *Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:*



What a twister!!!!


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## BROWNS (Jan 26, 2008)

cockney red said:


> *Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:*



Sick puppy!!!!


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## indicus (Jan 26, 2008)

cockney red said:


> *Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:*



Does your dad own a brewery?


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## Miss B (Jan 26, 2008)

Kirby said:


> i dont see much problem in german giants, beign p. vitticeps and p. barbata. it can strengthen, lengthen and build the future animals. this trait is very much saught after overseas.


 
The problem is that it's a hybrid. And yes, German Giants are quite sought after... in America. The same place where many Australian python species are regularly cross-bred  Same with the P. vitticeps and P. henrylawsonii cross - the Vittikins. The Yanks will cross-breed just about anything  Doesn't make it right...


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## ravensgait (Jan 26, 2008)

I see it is that time of year again !! One thing I'd like to point out is that Hybrids tend to be infertile IE Mules ETC where Intergrades as an example DiamondXJungle are fertile. And who ever made the cattle and dog crossbreeding is bad!comment needs to do some real research. There are breeds of Cattle and Breeds of dogs their get are only as good or bad as the parents they come from. This is like discussing inbreeding or religion IE emotions and ideals ETC get in the way.

Here is something that was posted on another forum and I think it isn't an unreasonable view

Quote/
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Your confusing monitors with people. First, there is nothing wrong with crossing(hybrids)in monitors. The problem is with some people who intentionally or unintentionally mislabel them. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]In the case of your flavis. After I stopped breeding them, they flat disappeared. Leaving nothing but crosses. I am again producing pure flavis. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]So your beef is really with those people. You must ask yourself, what do the monitors have to do with it. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]You did not mentioned it, but I am responsible for many crosses(that you mentioned) But, some occur by folks, who do not even realize they are breeding two different species. This is very common. Or people who flat do not care. This world is full of all manner of folks. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]This has even occurred in zoos with mangrove types, doreanus types and gouldi types. They did not do it on purpose. They just did not know, what they had was different. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]As you know, new species are discribed all the time. The reality is, no new species are being created. We are just giving the animals that exsist, different names. Which boils down to this, what was not hybrids or crosses ten, fifteen years ago, is today. And will be even more tomorrow. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]So the actual point is not to like it or dislike it, it does and WILL occur, the concern is how me manage it. If its in the forefront, it can be managed. But if its hidden, then who knows what your getting. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]When so-called experts(suedo purists) make this subject about good and bad(choosing to like or dislike it), it really is making it a very harmful situation. Then people polarize. Those that think its bad, may hide it. Its going to happen and we really do not want it hidden. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Crossing is not bad, but hiding it is. ARe you getting this. [/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Lastly, no one has to like it, just as no one has to like all monitors, or all individuals, or all species. But you do not have to make what you do not like, A BAD THING. Please consider this. Cheers /Quote[/FONT]​ 
I have to agree it is better to keep it out in the open as there is no way anyone can stop it. Me I say to each his own..
Randy​


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## cement (Jan 26, 2008)

Randy sounds American and on the assumption that that dribble was written by an Amarican, I can only say that is why your associates are frustrated with not being able to find pureblood sub species.
Its not a good thing when all you can say about your friends snake, "wow nice carpet".


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## junglepython2 (Jan 26, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> where Intergrades as an example DiamondXJungle are fertile.


 
Please tell me that's only to fire people up?


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## Kirby (Jan 26, 2008)

Miss B said:


> The problem is that it's a hybrid. And yes, German Giants are quite sought after... in America. The same place where many Australian python species are regularly cross-bred  Same with the P. vitticeps and P. henrylawsonii cross - the Vittikins. The Yanks will cross-breed just about anything  Doesn't make it right...



Miss B, im sure you already know, that i am more than understanding your statments.  but hey its fun to feel smart.

i speak regularly to someone who soon will be reciving six or seven p. barbata's which are pure barbata from germany. these are extremely rare and sought after, and i am terribly glad to say that this person (continuelly un-named as per their orders) most likely will not be breeding them, rather for studies. (nice studies, not jabby needles etc. etc.) 

these animals most likely will not effect, or reach US stock as the saught after barbata blood. 

beardie hybrid blood is overwhelmingly saught after due to its tendancy to form healthier, faster, stronger, larger animals. if this is true (purest thoughts aside) is it not 'ok' for the US stock which is incredibly weakened by adeno, and lack of 'fresh genes' and inbreeding etc. etc. to become strengthened by this hybrid blood. 

hybridisation, 'can' have a positive effect on such stock. although i would like to see 'our' animals, naturally 'healthy' stay seperated from vitticeps and barbata. 

i personally suggested the 'lending' or this persons barbata genes (breeding loan) as a means of funding their research, assuming these german barbata's are adeno free. as breeders will pay top dollar. but supprisingly and somewhat comfortingly the idea was passed off as unnecessary. 

please do not PM me, or kick up dust about this un- named person, i will not name them. 

within Australia, hybridisation of Pogona, is unnecessary considerign our 'healthy' and strong stock. soemone will probably end up doing it, hopefully unsuccessfuly. within the area of pythons, some find these interesting and favourable. i would like to see our australian animals remain their own species. diamonds, stay diamonds, coastals stay coastals. 

some look ugly, some are look alright. i wouldnt buy them as we are more than capable of purchasing clean species specific animals. 

to some extent i also beleive selective breeding can be unethical, when the animal is no longer itself. it become unscaled, or lesser scaled. eg the silk or leather backs. we havent had unscaled diamondXcoastals, so the majority wouldnt care to bicker on the subject.. :lol: 

miss b, i agree, just because some or alot of people do or use something, doesnt make it right.  its not just the yanks, we have european, and other global members with hybrids as well. theres an irish guy isnt their?


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## jay76 (Jan 26, 2008)

Just a quick question ....How do we know that the snakes we are getting now a pure blood. Even some WC snakes overlap in the areas where they live. People have been breeding snakes for a long time and how many are really pure blood. I am not saying crossing is ok, its just a question I dont know the answer for.


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## Kirby (Jan 26, 2008)

jay76 said:


> Just a quick question ....How do we know that the snakes we are getting now a pure blood. Even some WC snakes overlap in the areas where they live. People have been breeding snakes for a long time and how many are really pure blood. I am not saying crossing is ok, its just a question I dont know the answer for.



try your hardest to find a breeder that has good records. possibly right back to when they were wildcaught. or at least many many generations. you can never really be entirely sure. if there is a possibility of hybridisation in your breedign stock, or in your snakes. it is ALWAYS best to tell the buyer, as we dont want hidden hybrid blood snakes out classified as pure. 

this is probably the biggest problem.


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## jay76 (Jan 26, 2008)

Kirby said:


> try your hardest to find a breeder that has good records. possibly right back to when they were wildcaught. or at least many many generations. you can never really be entirely sure. if there is a possibility of hybridisation in your breedign stock, or in your snakes. it is ALWAYS best to tell the buyer, as we dont want hidden hybrid blood snakes out classified as pure.
> 
> this is probably the biggest problem.



I agree. As I said earlier the childrens, spotteds ect were all classed as the same snake up intill a few years ago in QLD so how many people are selling childrens pythons that have something else mixed in with them even if was 3 or 5 generations ago.


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## Kirby (Jan 26, 2008)

jay76 said:


> I agree. As I said earlier the childrens, spotteds ect were all classed as the same snake up intill a few years ago in QLD so how many people are selling childrens pythons that have something else mixed in with them even if was 3 or 5 generations ago.



wow, i dint realise that... it is possible these days for breeders to breed their own wild caught, childrens and spotteds. most probably for this very reason. there is a breeder in WA that has alot of wild caught for sale, and often wild caught captive bred clutches. this 'should' guaruntee a pure childrens, or a pure spotted.


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## jay76 (Jan 26, 2008)

Kirby said:


> wow, i dint realise that... it is possible these days for breeders to breed their own wild caught, childrens and spotteds. most probably for this very reason. there is a breeder in WA that has alot of wild caught for sale, and often wild caught captive bred clutches. this 'should' guaruntee a pure childrens, or a pure spotted.



That would be the only way I think to be shore that you have pure blood reptiles


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## Morelia_Hunter (Jan 26, 2008)

Because someone that sell them to you, say that they are pure. Thats how you know!!!! And everybody they deal with they tell that they are locality pure. Word of mouth, what a great way to know you are getting locality pure animals. Trust is really overrated!!!!


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## jay76 (Jan 26, 2008)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Because someone that sell them to you, say that they are pure. Thats how you know!!!! And everybody they deal with they tell that they are locality pure. Word of mouth, what a great way to know you are getting locality pure animals. Trust is really overrated!!!!



Thats what I was getting at. It is mostly word of mouth. Unless you were there when the breeder got them as WC it is all word of mouth.


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## Parko (Jan 26, 2008)

This thread was worth reading just for the line about hybridisers being artists, classic.

''Ah Picasso, legend of Eurotrash herpetoculture, you have created a masterpiece python, and in true picasso style i can't tell what the hell it's meant to be''. Lol


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## Frozenmouse (Jan 26, 2008)

has anyone crossed a woma with a bhp?


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## krusty (Jan 26, 2008)

Dabool said:


> has anyone crossed a woma with a bhp?



not yet but i'm working on it,do you want me to pm you when i have some luck........


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## krusty (Jan 27, 2008)

here is some pics of that WOMA X CARPET from the U.S.A what do you's think.


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## jay76 (Jan 27, 2008)

they the first ones or have they been doing it for a while. Never thought I would see that


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## krusty (Jan 27, 2008)

that was the first one but that one was from 06|07 season or 05|06 not a 100%
so there could be more this year.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 27, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> I see it is that time of year again !! One thing I'd like to point out is that Hybrids tend to be infertile IE Mules ETC where Intergrades as an example DiamondXJungle are fertile. And who ever made the cattle and dog crossbreeding is bad!comment needs to do some real research. There are breeds of Cattle and Breeds of dogs their get are only as good or bad as the parents they come from. This is like discussing inbreeding or religion IE emotions and ideals ETC get in the way.
> 
> Here is something that was posted on another forum and I think it isn't an unreasonable view
> 
> ...


 
Every Randy rabbits on about in his post is easily avoidable by breeding animals pure to their location...problem solved.


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## Jonno from ERD (Jan 27, 2008)

Another thing...

Everyone is saying that hybrids breed "stronger, healthier" animals. Can anyone pinpoint a single disease, ailment or problem associated with breeding true to species/locality animals? 

Let me save some time here...the answer is no.


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## Miss B (Jan 27, 2008)

Kirby said:


> i personally suggested the 'lending' or this persons barbata genes (breeding loan) as a means of funding their research, assuming these german barbata's are adeno free. as breeders will pay top dollar.


 
So you actively encouraged someone to cross vitticeps and barbata? :|



Kirby said:


> please do not PM me, or kick up dust about this un- named person, i will not name them.


 
Erm, why would I PM you? I couldn't care less if someone in the US has managed to get hold of a few barbata, lol.


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## CGSwans (Jan 27, 2008)

What is 'adeno'? I presume it's some sort of genetic defect that affects American and European beardies?


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## Miss B (Jan 27, 2008)

Adenovirus. It's a virus that has affected beardies in the United States. It causes lots of problems including a weakened immune system and dragons can become infected simply by coming into contact with an Adeno-positive beardie. Beardies can also pass the virus to their offspring. There is a test that can be done prior to breeding in order to determine if a dragon is Adeno-positive or not, but a lot of breeders do not bother and therefore the virus is being passed from one generation to the next.


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## CGSwans (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks. It hasn't reared its head here at all? Has it crossed species at all?


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## Miss B (Jan 27, 2008)

The Adenovirus has been reported in P. vitticeps, P. barbata, P. henrylawsonii and I believe there was also a monitor of some sort that was found to be affected.

To date there have been no cases here in Australia (thank god). The first reported case was actually in Auckland, New Zealand, and it made it's way to the States from there. Here's some more info (article courtesy of www.thepats.info).



> I wanted to inform people that they need to be aware of the Adeno virus that has been present in the bearded dragon population for quite some time. It has shown itself to be quite extensive now here in the United States. There are several strains & can go hand in hand with corona virus & the dependo virus. They are hard to tell apart due to their small structures of cells. However, the virus' are usually species specific.
> 
> Some symptoms of Adenovirus greatly vary. It is an overall suppression of the immune system which will leave them vulnerable & more prone to illness & disease. Routes of transmission have not been scientifically proven yet but are said to be fecal/oral & through the cloacal area & the egg sac. There have been no documented cases of transmission due to respiratory droplets, thus far.
> 
> ...


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## Kirby (Jan 27, 2008)

Miss B said:


> So you actively encouraged someone to cross vitticeps and barbata? :|
> 
> 
> 
> Erm, why would I PM you? I couldn't care less if someone in the US has managed to get hold of a few barbata, lol.



1. yes, for the purpose of strengthening a weakened stock, somewhat pure barbata would and could encourage adeno free, healthier stronger lines in alot of breeders stock. 


although here in australia, its unnecessary to do so. 

considering the outer Australian breeders have very little chance of getting more fresh blood or genes out of the country, the state of their lines dont look good. boxboy was illegally brought from Aus. unknown by himslef, or bred by his parents. either way the legalities werent to good with his arival. the most breeders can do is try to outcross their lines, they try to out cross to german giant, as these are the 'strongest' and in some cases it works. others, even the german has been weakened by lack of the new. 

hybridisation between the p. vit, and p.barbata. doesnt seem to cause any harm, but rather good. this si why its so saught after. if it had similar effects to inbreeding, by opinion on the matter would differ. but considering the 'german giant' in the past. theres nothing to worry about. its better than furthur weakening by producing 'lack of' lines. 

the possibility of new barbata blood (then again any new pogona blood) is a positive for the 'stocks' outcome. just imagin the royal family, only allowed to marry (thus breed) with other royality. its inbreeding between 1st and 2nd cousins. to an extent, over time this is what the outer US stock is doing. they have 'no choice'. 

(although on a grand scale) 

2. MissB, there are other members on this site with an interest on the subject. i didnt post it for your entertainment.  

p.s. you seemed to have an interest when they got a few vitticeps (boxboy) but only when you thought you spotted him first.... :lol:


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## CodeRed (Jan 27, 2008)

Kirby said:


> 1. yes, for the purpose of strengthening a weakened stock, somewhat pure barbata would and could encourage adeno free, healthier stronger lines in alot of breeders stock.
> 
> although here in australia, its unnecessary to do so.
> 
> ...


 
just confirming how little you actually know ...


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## Kirby (Jan 27, 2008)

i edited my post, and im assuming your refering to the hybridisation comment. (duh!!) 

can you pull up soemepoints about the ill effects between the barbata and vitticeps. as most of the 'non hybrid' perspectives are clearly stated 'my opinion, its wrong' 

it is possible between any two species to have a genetic bundle, although obviousely this wasnt all too present between these two very similar species. unless you have some studies or research codered, ????


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## firedragon (Jan 27, 2008)

DragonKeeper said:


> Dogs, Dingos, they are crossed all of the time, it takes a lot of the aggression out so they can be used as pets.
> 
> And why are Australian animals more special then from other countries?
> 
> Cross bred dogs are much better than pures, If you do it right you can take out the bad and just mix the good from both with no hassles.


 
You can never take out all the bad, I have seen some breeds that are good crossed yet there are plenty of pure breeds that are great, and they look better too, but in the end i think it comes down to the presonality of the dog and the way it trained and raised


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## Moreliaman (Jan 27, 2008)

I think theres room in the hobby for both, theres a market for it (supply & demand), its been going on for years already anyway, i remember seeing corn x kingsnakes about 15-20 years ago.
Interesting to read others thoughts on it though.


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## firedragon (Jan 27, 2008)

Midol said:


> Wrong.
> 
> All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.
> 
> ...


 
Midol i didnt know that about the cows, i think i'm going to stop eating meat again...


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## bump73 (Jan 27, 2008)

Midol said:


> All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.
> .


 

BAHAHAHA!!! 

Well of course the breeders advocate pure bred dogs it's how they make their money...

As for "all" vets and trainers advocating them....care to back that comment up with some proof???

Even pure breeds are "Hybrids" the breeding was just done a long time ago to get the dog to look or act a certain way...Just look at the labradoodles etc, wont be long till they are considered a pure breed on their own

It's like oralB saying 9 out of 10 dentists use oral B tooth brushes... RUBBISH

Ben


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## lazybuddha (Jan 27, 2008)

> Even pure breeds are "Hybrids" the breeding was just done a long time ago to get the dog to look or act a certain way...Just look at the labradoodles etc, wont be long till they are considered a pure breed on their own


now whose talking rubbish


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## ExecutiveReptiles (Jan 27, 2008)

Moreliaman said:


> I think theres room in the hobby for both, theres a market for it (supply & demand), its been going on for years already anyway, i remember seeing corn x kingsnakes about 15-20 years ago.
> Interesting to read others thoughts on it though.


 
True...KingxCorns have been around for quite some time...but the main problem is for example, what if nobody could get Cornsnakes or Kingsnakes anymore....what if the United States put a Ban on ALL export of Flora and Fauna...and you being in the UK....All you guys had would be what you have now...now speed it up 20-30 years...and during that time....All the Mixing and cross breeding....ment the people who chose to work with Pure Cornsnakes...had a harder and harder time finding them...due to the possibility that somewhere down the line of time...since the Ban...there might just be Kingsnake mixed into it...Those who truely want to work with Pure Cornsnakes are limited as to what and who they can get it from...And then people go off saying...there are no pure cornsnakes...so who cares....but at one time...someone here in America went out and caught wild cornsnakes...and bred them and ship them to the UK....at one point they where Real Pure Cornsnakes...

Of course this is a wild example...but the same thing really....The Morelia Pythons we have here in the states.... where at one point as Pure as one could get.....those who wanted to work with Coastals...could...those who wanted to work with Diamonds....Could....but as time has gone on....without the ability to refresh bloodlines with wildcaught "Pure" specimens....those options for keepers interested in working with "pure" species are dwindling.....I personally won't work with Diamond Pythons, as I personally know quite a few breeders who produced Diamonds, only to either have people question thier true pureness, or seem more interested in getting the 88% DiamondxJungle Cross that looks like a Diamond but sells for Half the price....

We here in the states have a limited gene pool of Australian Carpet Pythons....and whats sad is the lack of self control, or the overwelming urge to create something new.... no matter what the cost....Its all about them, and thier snakes...and many feel once thier offspring leave thier posession its not thier problem....thats the mentality here in the States...from my opinion....

But your right....there has to be room for both....as with any hobby, there are usually bars...limits....and once a keeper or breeder reaches those limits are bars....where do they go....Many get bored with refining or selectively breeding a certain species...they have to raise the bar, or set new limits on what they can do....It seems its part of the hobby...almost natural to "experiment"......

I just remember the first time I laid eyes on a Jungle Carpet back in the early 90's....I was in AW of it....I was thrilled to death to just own a Jungle...a REAL Jungle Carpet Python....man times have changed...or I have changed..lol.....I look back at pictures of that first Jungle, and can't imagine owning it now...lol, it was so ugly...lol


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## bump73 (Jan 27, 2008)

lazybuddha said:


> now whose talking rubbish


 
Kelpies and Border Collies are considered breeds yet they are a mix of other dogs, so whats rubbish about that???

Check this link for proof... No point commenting if you can't back it up

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/6392/beginnings.htm

Ben


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## Bapi (Jan 27, 2008)

I know it's been said before but crossing dog or cow breeds is not the same as crossing species, subspecies or even localities of reptiles. It's comparing apples with oranges. Because all cow breeds and dog breeds are human made. They are artificial. If you want to keep locality pure cattle well your out of luck because they went extinct several hundred years ago. Locality pure dogs are wolves. 

Crossing breeds of dogs or cows is a little like crossing a striped darwin carpet with an albino darwin carpet. The net effect is that you get a return to an animal closer to the wild type. (In this example in the first generation - and unless furthur inbreeding takes place (ie back crossing) in susequent ) Cross bred dogs and cows are healthier and live longer than purebreds (on average) because the diversity of genes helps protect against inherited diseases. As an example my own dog is a labrador cross Dobermann Both breeds carry a wide range of genetic disorders - labs have elbow & hip displasia etc Dobermanns have von willebrands, wobblers etc but very few in common and as most are recessive genes the cross cancels them out. If I bred him to a third unrelated breed the same would hold true. If I bred him to his sister then those recessive genes would reappear. (he is desexed so don't worry)

Breeding locality specific does not neccessarily mean inbreeding. Inbreeding is undesirable from a health point of view and if the plan is to save a true representative of the wild population. Most zoos now try to breed locality specific but they work out who is least related to who within that popultion in order to decide who to breed from. What often happens with locality specific is that people get a pair of locality specific individuals and continue to breed from them and their offspring. They also select for the prettiest individuals and so often end up with a morph that looks very little like and is very little like the true wild specimens from that locality.
People who are serious about preserving locality pure will be outbreeding within that locality to ensure they maintain as true a record of the wild original as possible. (like the zoos do)


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## bump73 (Jan 27, 2008)

Totally agree Bapi...

If directed at me i'm not comparing dogs to reptiles it was in response to someone saying that "pure" dogs are superior to mogrel dogs. Was just pointing out the fact that all breeds are really mongrels at some stage anyway...

Ben


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## Bapi (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi Ben wasn't directed at you. Purebred dogs are quite a recent creation and were all mongrels at some stage. They have simply been inbred & selected to all look the same as a breed standard. 

Stephen (bapi)


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