# Pets with pets?



## Groundhog (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay, so I read the thread about the scrub that whacked a cat. I know it is necessary for you guys. But I just wanted to share these: See, we have a shelter facility in NYC, so I take the time ot teach these guys to be cool with each other (I am an animal trainer). I can't: 1) Get the male dragons to play nice with each other; (3) Get any of the Aussie lizards to not size up my psittacines (interestingly, they cool with baby chicks). So here goes, only the dogs are a staged shot. And needless to say, *do not try this at home*:


----------



## Herpo (Dec 14, 2015)

Love numbers 2,4 and 5. That's beautiful! Well done.


----------



## Snapped (Dec 14, 2015)

I was quite impressed with your cats/beardies, very well trained......I got a bit worried when I saw the kitten/guinea pig with the big lizard.... is it a Tegu?....or what species is it, and would they normally eat small animals?


----------



## Ironmind91 (Dec 14, 2015)

My 2 cats live very happily with my 2 Jungles. They aren't interested in each other so I guess I'm lucky haha. Cool photos.


----------



## GBWhite (Dec 14, 2015)

Groundhog,

Just out of interest, do you leave the cats and dogs alone with the lizards? Likewise the guinea pig, chook and dove? Do all these animals free roam about your house or are you always around when they're out together?

What about you Ironmind?


----------



## cement (Dec 14, 2015)

So thats wildlife Bronx style?
Funniest thread Ive seen in ages, thanks for the glimpse into the life of city slickin animal life New York!!
Imagine that vitticeps in the desert out here now! He'd be looking for the coffee and bagels!


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 15, 2015)

*Pets with pets*



GBWhite said:


> Groundhog,
> 
> Just out of interest, do you leave the cats and dogs alone with the lizards? Likewise the guinea pig, chook and dove? Do all these animals free roam about your house or are you always around when they're out together?
> 
> What about you Ironmind?



So chook is what you mates call a chicken--cool! The dogs, cats, chicken and adult dragons largely free roam. Caveats:

1) Tegu is quite sweet with other animals, but he doesn't free roam unsupervised for long periods (one wrong move, eh?);
2) I do not allow two male dragons (Beardie, WD, Frilly) out at the same time;
3) If I want to free roam the psittacines (budgie, tiels), I have to put the dragons away, but the cats are fine.
4) One curious find: Notice how a few of the dogs are what are called bully breeds? (pit bulls, rottweiler)? If a make agamid bobs at a female dog, she backs downs. Hence the pic above. But the male dogs just bob back!

Is it true that Aussies think bully breeds are dangerous?


----------



## GBWhite (Dec 15, 2015)

Groundhog said:


> So chook is what you mates call a chicken--cool!
> Is it true that Aussies think bully breeds are dangerous?



Yeah my friend a chook is a chicken...hahaha.

Not all Aussies think that about the Bully breeds. Pit bulls, rottweilers etc get a bad name simply because of the media hype that results when a kid or somebody else gets bitten. You're no doubt aware that the behaviour of dogs reflex on the way they are raised by humans and unfortunately for these breeds in particular they are popular with some males who think it's cool to try to make them an extension of their presumed masculinity. However I have friends that own such breeds and you couldn't want for more placid dogs.

Our house is a bit of a menagerie with chooks, cockies (parrots), canaries, rats, mice and guinea pigs as well as a few various species of pythons and elapids and an outdoor pit full of different species of lizards. We also have a couple of Jack Russell Terriers. They are quite accepting of everything but the guinea pigs, rats and mice and I put that down to their hunting instincts. I've seen the male chase off magpies, hawks and kookaburras that have been harassing the chooks and we can tell by the nature of their bark when we have a Bluetongue, Water Dragon or snake show up in our back yard.

All the best,

George.


----------



## kingofnobbys (Dec 15, 2015)

Groundhog said:


> So chook is what you mates call a chicken--cool! The dogs, cats, chicken and adult dragons largely free roam. Caveats:
> 
> 1) Tegu is quite sweet with other animals, but he doesn't free roam unsupervised for long periods (one wrong move, eh?);
> 2) I do not allow two male dragons (Beardie, WD, Frilly) out at the same time;
> ...



yes - though many of their owners think they are sweethearts (until they maul a kid, or another dog or animal).

IMO , most of those images are owners being stupid, expecially allowing cats to be in the presence of lizards , that's an attack (cat on reptile) waiting to happen (you simply can not trust a cat - ANY CAT ! - in the place with any animal that's smaller than it is.


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 15, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> yes - though many of their owners think they are sweethearts (until they maul a kid, or another dog or animal).
> 
> IMO , most of those images are owners being stupid, expecially allowing cats to be in the presence of lizards , that's an attack (cat on reptile) waiting to happen (you simply can not trust a cat - ANY CAT ! - in the place with any animal that's smaller than it is.




Well I'm one of the owners, and everyone's still here... Now clearly, you do not mean ANY cat?!?


----------



## ronhalling (Dec 15, 2015)

[MENTION=34652]Groundhog[/MENTION], Unfortunately if you read the post "Snake gets Cat" you will realize that we have a lot of Cat haters here in "OZ" i think this is because of the problem Feral Cats have become, again unfortunately this is because of cat owners not having a good restraint system i.e. cat run to keep there moggies in check, it has often been my experience that a cat that has been brought up with different types of animals since being kittens that they become indifferent to the aforementioned animals and their hunting instinct is kept in check. Good on you for having such a diverse collection of animals together, it must give you soft inner glow to see them interact so well. Keep sending us more pics of your Bronx menagerie, maybe with a bit more light effect so we can see them more clearly.  ....................Ron


----------



## Ironmind91 (Dec 15, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Groundhog,
> 
> Just out of interest, do you leave the cats and dogs alone with the lizards? Likewise the guinea pig, chook and dove? Do all these animals free roam about your house or are you always around when they're out together?
> 
> What about you Ironmind?



Mate I can leave all 4 of them in a room and the 2 cats will sus out the jungles, give them a sniff, then walk off and wrestle or something haha. Zero interest. The jungles do the same, sus out the cats then slither off and explore. Ive had the pythons around the cats from day one so they are all not bothered.


----------



## Herpo (Dec 15, 2015)

kingofnobbys said:


> yes - though many of their owners think they are sweethearts (until they maul a kid, or another dog or animal).
> 
> IMO , most of those images are owners being stupid, expecially allowing cats to be in the presence of lizards , that's an attack (cat on reptile) waiting to happen (you simply can not trust a cat - ANY CAT ! - in the place with any animal that's smaller than it is.


Bit harsh. Out of curiosity, have you ever owned a cat? You speak of them very harshly, but your statement that you cannot trust them isn't limited to cats (who are actually quite trustworthy animals, contrary to popular stereotypes). As @ronhalling, the behaviour of a cat strongly depends on it's upbringing, like with a child.

And simply because the animal is smaller doesn't mean the cat will attack it. Cats also have very distinctive body language, so in any case, you have a pretty reliable clue of how the cat is feeling. If it meant harm, it would have large black pupils and wide open eyes, tail wagging and ears folded back. It's position in the photos shows it's very relaxed and the idea of harming the lizards isn't even on it's mind.

@kingo***obbys, not trying to be rude, but please think over what you're posting. Your statements here are untrue/unjust and frankly are quite insulting towards many of us. Not to mention your apparent keenness to badmouth cats at any occasion. Maybe take a more open minded approach next time?


----------



## kingofnobbys (Dec 15, 2015)

Herpo said:


> Bit harsh. Out of curiosity, have you ever owned a cat? You speak of them very harshly, but your statement that you cannot trust them isn't limited to cats (who are actually quite trustworthy animals, contrary to popular stereotypes). As @ronhalling, the behaviour of a cat strongly depends on it's upbringing, like with a child.
> 
> And simply because the animal is smaller doesn't mean the cat will attack it. Cats also have very distinctive body language, so in any case, you have a pretty reliable clue of how the cat is feeling. If it meant harm, it would have large black pupils and wide open eyes, tail wagging and ears folded back. It's position in the photos shows it's very relaxed and the idea of harming the lizards isn't even on it's mind.
> 
> @kingo***obbys, not trying to be rude, but please think over what you're posting. Your statements here are untrue/unjust and frankly are quite insulting towards many of us. Not to mention your apparent keenness to badmouth cats at any occasion. Maybe take a more open minded approach next time?



Yes - we had cats when I was kid, and one thing I remember is that these cats ( a few over the years) were forever killing and bringing home doves, pigeons, rosellas, parrots, wrens, frogs, lizards, mice, never to eat them, and they were lethal. 
I also remember these cats , killing finches and budgies that my sisters were breeding in a big avery in the backyard (even though dad made the avery "cat proof", and I remember one cat killing every single guinea pig I had as pets one day while I was at school). This cat was one who would sleep with the guinea pigs on a rug in front of the gas heater in the lounge room and never showed any indication of being interested in attacking the guinea pigs and were trusted with them, we thought the cat loved the guinea pigs and would never harm them.... big mistake. Never trust a cat. They are hard wired to hunt and kill, you can't get it out of them no matter how they are raised .

Wound up having no lizards or frogs in our yard or neigbourhood as the cats exterminated them all over the years , and these cats managed to decimate the native bird population in our neighbourhood and were also a pest to the neighbours, digging up veg patches and garden beds, raiding chicken enclosures and even killing some chickens.

I formed the view that cats are vermin and people who insist on owning them as pets must be forced to sterilise all kittens very early so they can never reproduce and good owners who really love their cats will keep them indoors and never let them roam freely. Cats don't need to roam about outside the house and can happily live their entire lives inside a house.

We had a cat after we moved into this house (my wife wanted a cat) , AN INSIDE CAT , but this cat proved impossible to house train to go to the toilet in the kitty litter , was a filthy thing and we wound up taking her to the RSPCA to be rehomed (no one in the family wanted her) as we didn't want to let her roam (so it would go outside somewhere) and as I value having wild native animals and birds visiting my yard and I knew she would start hunting and killing them no matter how well fed she was and we couldn't at the time afford to build a proper cat race in the yard for her, so puss had to go.

if you don't like my opinions regarding cats and a large % of cat owners = the idiot types of owners ( who let their cats roam about unsupervised largely because they don't like their cat stinking out their house by going in the litter tray) 
......... you can easily use the feature on this board called "IGNORE MEMBER" and you wont then have to read my posts. Is very easy.


----------



## cement (Dec 15, 2015)

I grew up with cats too, Im just shy of 50 now so I'm wondering if the breeds of cats has been "tampered with"(for want of a better word) to make them more docile and "housie"?

When i was akid their was not a milking shed anywhere that didn't have cats. They kept away the rats and took a bowl of milk as pay.
We had a friggin monster tom that would howl, fight other toms, leave its horribly pungent scent around the yards and bring home nightly kills. Bandicoots, snakes, lizards, rats, birds, sugar gliders, even the first feild mouse I ever caught by hand,was showing my sister and the cat took it, I remember its back legs, tail and bum hanging out the cats mouth, legs wriggling madly as I tried to run it down. Never did, never saw the mouse again.

These days, I am more involved with native animals as I have seen first hand the destruction ferals do, and see it as a real shame that originally, this country was in perfect balance. A lot of my mates live on properties and we all seem to have the same ideas as far as our land goes, as close to native as possible, ferals are not tolerated. We get pig sign, a week or two later it is shot. We get cat, then its trapped and euthed. Its a constant battle. After the drought broke out west and we swung into la nina, as a reptile relocator you see the numbers of species slowly change over the years, as it comes back, so imagine seeing a fresh batch of shinglebacks wild born roaming around the house outside...... it gives you joy to see it, and then finding it dead with a few teeth marks and scratch marks in it, and missing a head...

So I get a bit cranky when I see the cat kill pile of feathers, and swear at them under my breath, but Ive spent a lot of time caring for the victims of cats (and dogs), and giving them shots etc. I don't think the impact of cats here can be blasied off, Its refreshing to see some responsible cat owners on here, it really is, but don't call us idiots Herpo and try to preach to us the awesomeness of cats. Its not the cats fault, we get that, but now that we KNOW
how bad they are for the ecology, its the owner that doesn't keep them indoors that is the idiot, not the people who have just never owned one.


----------



## kingofnobbys (Dec 15, 2015)

- - - Updated - - -

BTW image of a beardie on cat - it has a very black beard, so I don't think it is very pleased about being on the cat , it's also in alert mode (tail up) - I suspect a staged image with a cat lovers' agenda that "puss loves his/her beardie".

I think all those beardies are stressed by their cat / dog encounters (tails up and alert mode), note their body language, except that last one (maybe it's been asleep and is not fully aware yet).

I suspect all those images might be staged for broad consumption.

Don't be fooled - folks.


----------



## Herpo (Dec 16, 2015)

Sorry to hear that @kingo***obbys, but don't let that one foul experience ruin cats for you. As with humans, all cats are different.

However, I have to address your other statements. For starters, cats are not hard wired to kill. The instinct is always there, yes, but is easily suppressed. An indoor cat, for example, will sit by the window for hours watching myna birds on gutters, but wouldn't be too sure what to do if she ever got he paws on one.

Litter training cats is one of the most simple parts of owning a cat, so, I don't know what you did wrong there.

I don't really think these are staged shots, and I think you're letting your dislike for cats tell you that. The animals are clearly in no danger, and the owner knows what he's doing, If he was trolling, someone would have called him on that earlier.

As for ignoring you, no. Your posts are, while mildly offensive, quite entertaining, and I don't want to miss out.


----------



## GBWhite (Dec 16, 2015)

Herpo, 

No offence my young friend but you obviously have a long way to go in understanding animal behaviour. I believe they are staged shots and agree that the bearded is showing signs of stress and definitely in alert mode. Although I didn't say anything, that was the purpose for my original post. I was fishing as they say.

Just to get one thing clear, I believe that felines of all species are a beautiful and interesting animal however, (for want of a better term), due to the nature of the beast I would never own one. I doesn't matter how domesticated a cat is, it will always have the urge to hunt. I've also seen and heard of many, many instances where smaller domestic pets have fallen victim to the assumed tolerant pet moggy to ever risk allowing a cat anywhere near animals such as birds, lizards, snakes and similar small pets. 

You've made the comment "as with humans, all cats are different". Well they may look differently but I'm sorry to tell you that kingofnobbys is correct when he states they are hard wired to kill, it's a genetically inherited survival instinct and as a result, no matter how domesticated they may be, they cannot resist putting into practise what nature has designed them for if and when the opportunity arises. 

Unlike dogs that live in hierarchical social packs that are headed by an alpha male and alpha female (domestically they consider the adult male and/or female human as the alpha male and/or female) and are wired to please pack mates to remain accepted as part of the pack, cats have a completely different social structure and have no need to co-operate with other cats. As a result, co-operation with humans is limited unless it serves a purpose to the cat.

So where dogs have been bred for a purpose, cats have been bred for looks.

Just in case you are not already aware, cats don't see you as their owners but consider they own you? Your part of their territory. They have scent glands on each side of their foreheads and lips as well as their tail and mark their territory by rubbing up against objects, you and any guests to your home. Males go a little further and mark their territory by urinating on objects and defecating. When you see a cat cleaning itself, it is, but it's cleaning itself of foreign scents including yours to make them smell more like themselves.

Because of the marking practices of Toms people prefer to get females however, all kittens learn to hone their inherit hunting instinct from their mothers, that's why females catch and bring home small animals. Even desexed females will catch and bring home animals and birds as a means to show off their hunting skill to what they consider to be an inferior hunter (you). Stray will often show up on a doorstep with a dead animal hoping to get a new home.

As has been mentioned it all comes down to the responsibility of the owner (if I can use that term) of the cat. 

Personally another reason that I'd never own a cat is because I don't believe it is right to restrict an incredible natural hunter to indoors or confine them to outdoor cat cages.

All the best,

George.


----------



## kingofnobbys (Dec 16, 2015)

Herpo said:


> Sorry to hear that @kingo***obbys, but don't let that one foul experience ruin cats for you. As with humans, all cats are different.
> 
> However, I have to address your other statements. For starters, cats are not hard wired to kill. The instinct is always there, yes, but is easily suppressed. An indoor cat, for example, will sit by the window for hours watching myna birds on gutters, but wouldn't be too sure what to do if she ever got he paws on one.
> 
> ...



You need to open your eyes and remove the rose coloured glasses regarding cats.


----------



## Herpo (Dec 17, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Herpo,
> 
> No offence my young friend but you obviously have a long way to go in understanding animal behaviour. I believe they are staged shots and agree that the bearded is showing signs of stress and definitely in alert mode. Although I didn't say anything, that was the purpose for my original post. I was fishing as they say.
> 
> ...


Thank you George, I will take that into account,

While I am no expert (by any means) there are things that can be easily observed by owning a cat. The body language for one. None the less, I will take heed to what you've said. After all, I am here to learn and grow not only as a reptile keeper, but as an animal keeper in general.

Your description of male cats is why we chose a female. And yes, I was aware of the scent glands (visible in my pics on my thread) and what they were used for.

Thank you,
Herpo


----------



## Smittiferous (Dec 17, 2015)

That's interesting, @kingofnobbys , my mother has cats, yet has an absolute plethora of native birds and other animals on her property, more than I have seen anywhere else in my local area of suburbia. Surely if her cat were present then all the natives would be dead, right?

Next time you:

Reach for your phone,
Sit down on your comfy couch to watch some tv,
Turn on your computer,
Get in your car,
Unlock your house,

Think about how many natives were destroyed or lost their homes to obtain the materials to bring you your comforts... More than any cat could ever account for. 

Go grind your own personal brand of salt somewhere else mate. Two out of two threads in the last few days you'd made your personal mission to go and **** all over.


----------

