# did a venomous snake handeling course today



## BIGBANG (Nov 9, 2012)

hey guy i did a venomous snake handling course today and if i hadnt been doing the course just to get the certificate then i would have been pretty disappointed. I have been catching vens for 17 years and thought its about time i get it on paper and legal, so i wasnt going there to learn how to catch a snake.....BUT there were however 5 of the 7 of us doing the course that had never touched a snake ( not even a python) let alone caught a wild venomous snake. now the course started at 7am and finished at 330pm and in this time i caught 2 brown snakes and 1 tiger that is all the hands on experience that was given, except for a couple of the people had a couple extra goes at it cos they kept making mistakes.......now.....i wouldnt trust some of the people there today catching a python in the wild let alone a ven but now they have done this course they can become snake catchers. I not only believe that there needs to be some sort of bench mark people should have to reach before being granted a catchers license but there needs to be a compensee level to protect these wanna be snake catchers from themselves cos after today stay tuned to the news cos if some of these people are let loose on the world there will be deaths.
now on another note if i'm doing a venomous snake handeling course i would like it to concerntrate on venomous snake handling and catching venomous snakes not how to look after snakes in captivity, or how to run your snake catching business. For the 8 hours i was there i think you could have fitted what was taught about venomous snakes and catching them into about 2 hours.

all i can say is i'm glad i wasnt going there expecting to come away having learnt how to catch a snake


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## Stuart (Nov 9, 2012)

Well done and congrats mate


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## Skeptic (Nov 9, 2012)

What's more dangerous, catching snakes illegally without training or doing a course first?


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 9, 2012)

What method of catching was taught?

I think if strict rules are applied hoop bag and hook can be taught relatively safely in a day provided there is no "skin to scale"

I did a course a couple of years ago and have since handled Elapids on a regular basis. I would probably still describe my skills as basic and don't think any course can teach what good snake handlers/catchers have learned over many years.


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## BIGBANG (Nov 9, 2012)

Elapidae1 said:


> What method of catching was taught?
> 
> I think if strict rules are applied hoop bag and hook can be taught relatively safely in a day provided there is no "skin to scale"
> 
> I did a course a couple of years ago and have since handled Elapids on a regular basis. I would probably still describe my skills as basic and don't think any course can teach what good snake handlers/catchers have learned over many years.



no hooks or tongs mate, using a push stick to pin the snake then tailing the snake releasing the head and then proceed to jiggle the snake to keep it off balance and stopping it from coming back up itself to tag you, and we were putting them into a large plastic box to secure them. look it was a very easy and affective method and not one i had done before but i can see meny ways and inexperienced person could end up in a bad way doing it if not paying attention and also i dont know how it would go on a large snake, snakes we were dealing with ere 4 and 5 footers


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 9, 2012)

This is a ridiculous method to train people to catch snakes and I have seen the performance on you tube

I will add the course I did was substandard, however I advocated it due to not knowing any better and luckily didn't come unstuck.
Snake removal courses should only teach hoop bag and hook IMO people who develop a further interest will soon find the means to develop their skills further.
But tailing snakes for beginners is asking for trouble and shouldn't be taught at all. Just because the snakes on the course are safe to handle their first real encounter will be a whole different kettle of fish.


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## -Peter (Nov 10, 2012)

Elapidae1 said:


> What method of catching was taught?
> 
> I think if strict rules are applied hoop bag and hook can be taught relatively safely in a day provided there is no "skin to scale"
> 
> I did a course a couple of years ago and have since handled Elapids on a regular basis. I would probably still describe my skills as basic and don't think any course can teach what good snake handlers/catchers have learned over many years.



Apart from compliant textilis I am at a loss to understand how one gets the snake into the bag without "skin to scale" using only a hook.


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## Wrightpython (Nov 10, 2012)

-Peter said:


> Apart from compliant textilis I am at a loss to understand how one gets the snake into the bag without "skin to scale" using only a hook.



easiest method is as snake is slithering away touch it 40cm behind head with end of your hoop bag when it strikes back at bag it will go straight in then you just flip the rest of snake into the bag having never actually touched it safest and best method for all concerned. i hate the tongs or pinning method as often to much pressure is applied. obviously this doesnt work in every instance but many times this does work and my first 10 or so browns were caught this way.


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## spotlight (Nov 10, 2012)

I really think the trainers need to train more on identification, they go to a house remove snakes tell the land owners it's a taipan and leave, the problem is they scare the living @!&" out of the land owners thinking they are over run with taipans on a area they are not found and they forget the owners normally ask for a pic of the snake before they leave LOL making them look like a fool holding a keel back or brown tree snake!!.
Never had to do a course as I was doing the catch and release before the new laws with damage mitigation but was thinking about sneaking into one just too see my self what was being done for the paper


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## Wrightpython (Nov 10, 2012)

i dont have a certificate saying i can do it i am not even registered snake catcher so all intent and purpose i am breaking the law but most of my phone calls come from the police who have had my number for over ten years. if i did a course does it mean i can then charge for my service something that i have never done.


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## spotlight (Nov 10, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> easiest method is as snake is slithering away touch it 40cm behind head with end of your hoop bag when it strikes back at bag it will go straight in then you just flip the rest of snake into the bag having never actually touched it safest and best method for all concerned. i hate the tongs or pinning method as often to much pressure is applied. obviously this doesnt work in every instance but many times this does work and my first 10 or so browns were caught this way.



I also use this method when possible , I was asked to do snake catching courses where I live but I respect my snakes to much , don't like the thought of my snake being crushed with tongs from a first time snake catcher. Hats off to the guys running the courses I just can't do it ! A mate of mine runs a course and he gets quite mad at people using to much pressure.


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## Wrightpython (Nov 10, 2012)

The whole idea of newbies pinning a snake is just ludicrous why risk injury to the snake if you are not going to head the snake something else that newbies shouldnt do. i only advocate pinning and heading if done by pros for a good reason like milking or wound dressing tick removal etc etc not just to catch it. we should be advocating least contact possible, if you wanna handle a snake to show off do it with bts and the like not eb or tigers etc.


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## Fuscus (Nov 10, 2012)

-Peter said:


> Apart from compliant textilis I am at a loss to understand how one gets the snake into the bag without "skin to scale" using only a hook.


That is my preferred method for hots. I use a dark bag on a fishing net frame and try and make it look like the safest hiding spot available. Cox the snake in by tickling its tail and/or guiding its head.
Of course every snake is different and you must be prepared to improvise, last textillis wouldn't leave her little spot and was hooked and gently dropped into the bag, Twice she landed with her head out and promptly left the bag.


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## BIGBANG (Nov 10, 2012)

snakes we were using were freshly caught wild snakes in the days before that hadnt been released yet. i think it is much easier to catch a snake by actually getting hold of it. the bloke running the course was very strict on the pressure applied when pinning, and the pinning was not done with a hard surface, it was actually a window cleaner like ya see at a servo, foam one side ruber the other was actually a very good item just not sure about the rest of the method, i had no problem doing it but i have been around snakes for along time so know how they move but some of the others wouldnt jiggle enough and the tigers nearly came back up, but also they would just about launch them into the box from a fair height instead of gentle dropping them in


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## pythoncrazy (Nov 10, 2012)

BIGBANG said:


> hey guy i did a venomous snake handling course today and if i hadnt been doing the course just to get the certificate then i would have been pretty disappointed. I have been catching vens for 17 years and thought its about time i get it on paper and legal, so i wasnt going there to learn how to catch a snake.....BUT there were however 5 of the 7 of us doing the course that had never touched a snake ( not even a python) let alone caught a wild venomous snake. now the course started at 7am and finished at 330pm and in this time i caught 2 brown snakes and 1 tiger that is all the hands on experience that was given, except for a couple of the people had a couple extra goes at it cos they kept making mistakes.......now.....i wouldnt trust some of the people there today catching a python in the wild let alone a ven but now they have done this course they can become snake catchers. I not only believe that there needs to be some sort of bench mark people should have to reach before being granted a catchers license but there needs to be a compensee level to protect these wanna be snake catchers from themselves cos after today stay tuned to the news cos if some of these people are let loose on the world there will be deaths.
> now on another note if i'm doing a venomous snake handeling course i would like it to concerntrate on venomous snake handling and catching venomous snakes not how to look after snakes in captivity, or how to run your snake catching business. For the 8 hours i was there i think you could have fitted what was taught about venomous snakes and catching them into about 2 hours.
> 
> all i can say is i'm glad i wasnt going there expecting to come away having learnt how to catch a snake



check this site out 
Snake Handler Official Website - Venomous Snake Handling


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## mic772 (Nov 10, 2012)

BIGBANG said:


> snakes we were using were freshly caught wild snakes in the days before that hadnt been released yet. i think it is much easier to catch a snake by actually getting hold of it. the bloke running the course was very strict on the pressure applied when pinning, and the pinning was not done with a hard surface, it was actually a window cleaner like ya see at a servo, foam one side ruber the other was actually a very good item just not sure about the rest of the method, i had no problem doing it but i have been around snakes for along time so know how they move but some of the others wouldnt jiggle enough and the tigers nearly came back up, but also they would just about launch them into the box from a fair height instead of gentle dropping them in


C
Concerning your first comment I would like to see you applie your methods to a scrubie or any other python in a ceiling? and what do you do when its not a snake in the ceiling and find out its a goanna.


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## tyson001 (Nov 10, 2012)

Elapidae1 said:


> This is a ridiculous method to train people to catch snakes and I have seen the performance on you tube
> 
> I will add the course I did was substandard, however I advocated it due to not knowing any better and luckily didn't come unstuck.
> Snake removal courses should only teach hoop bag and hook IMO people who develop a further interest will soon find the means to develop their skills further.
> But tailing snakes for beginners is asking for trouble and shouldn't be taught at all. *Just because the snakes on the course are safe to handle *their first real encounter will be a whole different kettle of fish.



so the snakes on the courses are not dangerous.


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## imported_Varanus (Nov 10, 2012)

tyson001 said:


> so the snakes on the courses are not dangerous.



I've been asked to supply Eastern Brown Snakes for the latest WIRES course in our local area and I can assure you they're straight out of "Bush" (wild caught on relocations).


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## BIGBANG (Nov 10, 2012)

mic772 said:


> C
> Concerning your first comment I would like to see you applie your methods to a scrubie or any other python in a ceiling? and what do you do when its not a snake in the ceiling and find out its a goanna.


what comment and what method mate? where i live i dont have to worry about scrubbies or any other type of pythons, we do have goannas here and we were shown how to handle goannas briefly. in the defence of this bloke running the course, it was a "venomous snake handling course" conducted in victoria so it focused on the main vens we have here, not to many pythons here

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imported_Varanus said:


> I've been asked to supply Eastern Brown Snakes for the latest WIRES course in our local area and I can assure you they're straight out of "Bush" (wild caught on relocations).



these guys we were using were wild caught to e released on monday


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## jairusthevirus21 (Nov 10, 2012)

-Peter said:


> Apart from compliant textilis I am at a loss to understand how one gets the snake into the bag without "skin to scale" using only a hook.




I do all my captures with a strictly no contact rule (no skin to scale) using only a hook and a catch bag. We have a 'no contact' rule out in the field because it is not necessary. It also takes that risk out of the equation. How? is a basic understanding of animal behaviour... Do it right an the snake sees the bag a a place of refuge. I once got asked if i put something in the catch bag to make the snake go into it?...lol ha haha 

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tyson001 said:


> so the snakes on the courses are not dangerous.




No that's not what he's getting at.... I think he means that things are a lot different under the guidance of an experienced handler. Than a novice on their own. Just because people have done the course, does not mean they are a pro and ready to deal with a capture straight away. But most people understand this during a course. As for tailing.... you either have it, or you dont.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Nov 10, 2012)

No skin to scale? Have fun with that..
Every situation is different, every snake is different and can potentially react differently.
I might be wrong but I think the best teacher is experience, 
These licences should come with L plates and P plates.
Then again, what would i know, Ive been called a dinosour, lol.


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## jairusthevirus21 (Nov 10, 2012)

Well naturally situations differ... L and P plate? lol. perhaps Masters and Apprentices? ha ha ha


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## imported_Varanus (Nov 10, 2012)

Try this without skin to scale!....a latex glove would have been good....but I know what you mean.


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## Egernia (Nov 10, 2012)

There is no course that can teach you all you need to know about handling venomous snakes so those courses should only be considered as introductory no matter what the content. The question is whether the holders of the courses make this clear to participants or whether paricipants are led to believe that completing the course qualifies them.

I think the ability to complete a course is a great introductory to the animals and the information around them but perhaps certificates handed out after the courses should be controlled a bit more. In the courses run by wildlife groups they did used to 'fail' participants that clearly did not have an ability to handle venomous snakes safely but I assume that the commercial courses are under pressure from paying participants not to be failed.

The suggestion that there is only one way to handle a venomous snake is nonsense when it comes to catching and relocating wild snakes. Catching a full sized brown snake in the middle of someones driveway requires completely different techniques than pulling that same snake out of the engine of a car. And you wont learn all of that in a course - it is all on the job training. A person who has shown and aptitude for handling snakes well at a course will likely be able to learn on the job safely, while those that havent are a disaster waiting to happen and should not have been given a certificate to suggest otherwise.


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## Stuart (Nov 10, 2012)

No skin to scale? Fine on a nice quiet and pretending to be a rock death adder that can be put into a bag with very little effort. No skin to scale contact on a carpet python hiding in a roof crawlspace under a child's bedroom, good luck. Oh and you earn master status if you are able to get a Colubrid into a bag without touching it. 

As those who have been doing this for a while have said, experience is a great teacher but so is common sense. 

My course was two days with 1 being whole theory and the second filled with practical experience starting with carpet pythons and ending with an EB and Coastal Taipan. I learnt more in my first 2 relocations than I did on that course if I was to be honest because being in a vacant hall is heaven compared to waiting out and grabbing a peeved off EB hiding in a wall space.


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Nov 11, 2012)

Just wondering, seriously no sarcasm, how do you get experience? Don't you do a course like this to be certified then learn and gain experience? Or are you meant to illegally catch animals and gain experience and then have it made official by doing a course?


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## aspidito (Nov 11, 2012)

NOBODY that has no experience with the capture of wild snakes should be taught 'Tailing' ...absolutely irresponsible & this was taught to people that had never even touched a snake!!!!
One gains experience capturing using the safest methods possible, ie: the least amount of danger you need to expose yourself to the better. Over time with many captures under your belt you will gain knowledge of different species & how they react when approached & then you will have the confidence & correct attitude for more 'hands on' methods.
Learn the basics & gain experience to become a master....


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## JasonL (Nov 11, 2012)

furiousgeorge said:


> Just wondering, seriously no sarcasm, how do you get experience? Don't you do a course like this to be certified then learn and gain experience? Or are you meant to illegally catch animals and gain experience and then have it made official by doing a course?



When your laying in a hospital bed recovering from the bite of a snake you largely underestimated and it dawns on you that the paper certificate hanging proudly on your wall at home means squat..... then you just became more experienced.

If a person has kept a range of angry pythons for a number of years, then they are at least on their way, Water Pythons especially will teach you a lot, there strike speed is as good as most elapids (i.e. you cant see it), Joining a herp society going on field trip and watching how others do thing, generally being around other elapid handlers ect ect .... becoming a decent elapid handler takes years not hours.


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## rvcasa (Nov 11, 2012)

Does anyone know where I can do similar course in Brisbane (or surroundings)?

Are they pricey? Cheers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## -Peter (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm going to have to do one of these no touching courses. Anyone run them here in Sydney?


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## Egernia (Nov 11, 2012)

furiousgeorge said:


> Just wondering, seriously no sarcasm, how do you get experience? Don't you do a course like this to be certified then learn and gain experience? Or are you meant to illegally catch animals and gain experience and then have it made official by doing a course?



Absolute beginners should be encouraged to take these types of courses if they want to develop their skills. The suggestion from experienced snake catchers is that a certificate given at the end of the course should not be seen as being anything more than what it is i.e. completion of a course not a professional snake catchers licence!

If people who take these courses are given the impression that the certificate at the end of the course qualifies them to go out and start catching any snake in any situation then that is a problem.

People should know their own limitations and work to improve upon them. I think that those running the courses should address this by way of the courses by failing participants until they reach a certain standard. I dont know if they do this but perhaps they should if they want to ensure that only the best qualified individuals have one of that companies certificates hanging on the wall!

So how do you gain experience after a course safely? Well that is where you recognise your own limitations and work to improve on those. Wherever possible concentrate on perfecting your skills with non-venomous species and species that are not normally particularly aggressive such as red bellies. Once you are fully confident and have learned from the mistakes you are inevitably going to make then allow yourself to tackle some of the more challenging snakes. Have the common sense to call in more experienced catchers or even walk away from the more dangerous jobs until you are up to it as you are not going to be helping the situation if you get bitten!


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks Jason. Can anyone expand on that it still didn't answer my question. I mean its all good having a water python and watching other people but its not really the experience I was talking about.

Cheers egernia I must've posted at the same time as you and not seen yours. Your answer was very helpful


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## -Peter (Nov 11, 2012)

Egernia said:


> Absolute beginners should be encouraged to take these types of courses if they want to develop their skills. The suggestion from experienced snake catchers is that a certificate given at the end of the course should not be seen as being anything more than what it is i.e. completion of a course not a professional snake catchers licence!
> 
> If people who take these courses are given the impression that the certificate at the end of the course qualifies them to go out and start catching any snake in any situation then that is a problem.
> 
> ...




These courses are primarily industry based. Therefore the person attaining a certificate is deemed to be capable in the field of removing problem snakes. Personal limitations wouldn't come into those situations. Basically I see an inadequate product being sold to the mining industry that private individuals see as a fast ticket to being a reptile relocator. Am I wrong?


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## Gus20 (Nov 11, 2012)

hey is there anywhere on the sunny coast where u can do any venomous handling courses?


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## MrFireStorm (Nov 11, 2012)

I have taught a number of people (P&W Officers, RSPCA, public) to catch and relocate vens around Tasmania using a variety of methods. 

I have always used wild caught snakes as IMO using a"placid" snake is the same as using a garden hose. In saying this, the 1st contact with a snake is a rubber one to initially get the concept of the technique. By using wild snakes it presents the catcher with worse case scenario and therefore do not freak out when they are called to relocate an aggressive snake.

An elapid gripper was designed and manufactured in Tassie that gained animal ethics approval however I personally no longer use this method. I pin, hook or tail depending on the situation and have therefore developed my own pinner using surgical rubber tubing (this eliminates excessive pressure being applied). I have never rushed into a relocation without gaining as much info from the member of public and then assess the situation again when I arrive.

Thankfully, to this date, I have never been tagged by a ven (after 12 years) and those I have instructed have only ever suffered 1 bite from a whitelipped snake. That wa sonly due to the "handler" rushing in and grabbing the whippy by hand about mid body. Therefore irresponsibility was the major factor.

Oh, and in case your wondering, yes I have caught other than Tassie snakes and from some very hairy situations (e.g. after the Rockhampton floods).

Just thought I would through my thoughts in there.

Daz

PS. When possible, I try and make myself available to new catchers to attend their first few, until they build their own confidence.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 11, 2012)

-Peter said:


> These courses are primarily industry based. Therefore the person attaining a certificate is deemed to be capable in the field of removing problem snakes. Personal limitations wouldn't come into those situations. Basically I see an inadequate product being sold to the mining industry that private individuals see as a fast ticket to being a reptile relocator. Am I wrong?



Bang on the money inregards to some of courses around here. I would add though that the no tailing part is a rule usually made clear by the mining companies and I am pretty sure also the DEC.

There are even 4 hours courses been ran sometimes locally. How the hell does that short time give the practical skill training one is going to need? Part of being a good snake catcher is that one that should be adverse with all methods and regonize that different situations sometimes require different methods and implements. So many people are set in their ways ( many of my friends) and rubbish alternative ideas.


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## cement (Nov 11, 2012)

A major difference between courses and the field is the floor surface and the open space that you just don't get out on a catch job. Even if they are wild caught snakes at the course, the floor puts the odds highly in the catchers favour.
I won't tail adders, but I have had to on two occasions now because of the situation. This same situation applies to almost every catching scenario, if the snake is in a place that is very close to escape, then tailing or pinning is the way to go. And isn't this the case with most call outs? A black or brown in a messy house, needs a quick capture or you run the risk of losing it in the house. If the snakes head is going through a hole, good luck hooking that into a bag.

quote pp "Part of being a good snake catcher is that one that should be adverse with all methods and regonize that different situations sometimes require different methods and implements."

So true, an open mind and the ability to use stick or broom or what ever is available is key. Because a good snake handler knows the animals capabilities and therefore can work with it.


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## Swampdonkey (Nov 11, 2012)

I did a catching course a few years ago in SA and the people who ran it did an awesome job. It was a 2 day course. the first thing we were taught was the correct first aid for a bite. then id's of snakes common to the area, then info on probable hiding spots in suburban bnack yards then demos of the various methods of capture and then hands on of the basic hook and loop method for those who wanted to and a further session of theory to reinforce everything we had learned. The last thing we were told was that just because we had done the course we were not snake catchers, if we wanted to become snake catchers we were given the details of some of the reputable catchers in the area and to contact them to gain some supervised experience. As I said it was an awesome course and most of it stuck with me


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## DanLM (Nov 11, 2012)

pythoncrazy said:


> check this site out
> Snake Handler Official Website - Venomous Snake Handling



I did that course at the beginning of last year, and thoroughly enjoyed it. 2 day course, 1 day of theory, risk assessment and identification, and 1 day of full on practical, covering as many techniques as possible, and the pros and cons of each. Never ended up getting the permits and becoming a snake catcher, but I might do a refresher course in future if I decide I want to.


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## Hamalicious (Nov 11, 2012)

I did my Ven. handling course recently through Geckoes Wildlife at Closeburn. If anyone is in the SE Queensland area i can very highly recommend this course. 

Absolutely no hand to scale contact, all training is done with a hoop bag and hook. Pinners and Grippers were explained and discussed but we were basically advised not to use them as they are dangerous for the snakes and simply unnecessary most of the time. We learned and practised all the techniques with pythons first and slowly moved up the rank of snakes until we got to the taipans and browns. Every thing was very professional and the theory and first aid was explained clearly and effectively. 

The course done by the OP sounds very dangerous and i completely agree that there should be some sort of bench mark. Id trust the other 4 blokes in my course to work with snakes and other people should be able to trust their local snake person, but i wouldnt trust anyone who learnt in the OPs course.


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## eipper (Nov 11, 2012)

I run no contact courses in qld pm me for details

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I run no contact courses in qld pm me for details


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## BIGBANG (Nov 11, 2012)

Mrherp said:


> I did my Ven. handling course recently through Geckoes Wildlife at Closeburn. If anyone is in the SE Queensland area i can very highly recommend this course.
> 
> Absolutely no hand to scale contact, all training is done with a hoop bag and hook. Pinners and Grippers were explained and discussed but we were basically advised not to use them as they are dangerous for the snakes and simply unnecessary most of the time. We learned and practised all the techniques with pythons first and slowly moved up the rank of snakes until we got to the taipans and browns. Every thing was very professional and the theory and first aid was explained clearly and effectively.
> 
> The course done by the OP sounds very dangerous and i completely agree that there should be some sort of bench mark. Id trust the other 4 blokes in my course to work with snakes and other people should be able to trust their local snake person, but i wouldnt trust anyone who learnt in the OPs course.



hey mate i couldnt agree more, i believe that the method although effective when done by someone that knows snakes like i do, when done by a novice or someone that has had nothing to do with snakes i could only see it ending badly, after all if you stop jiggling the snake you have a pretty cranky snake by the tail. i cant see myself using this method very often i might give it a go if the situation is right to do so.


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 11, 2012)

-Peter said:


> Apart from compliant textilis I am at a loss to understand how one gets the snake into the bag without "skin to scale" using only a hook.



As a few people have eluded too the bag is made to look like a good refuge and the hook used to flick the remainder of the body in as the bag is being lifted from the ground.



Fuscus said:


> That is my preferred method for hots. I use a dark bag on a fishing net frame and try and make it look like the safest hiding spot available. Cox the snake in by tickling its tail and/or guiding its head.
> Of course every snake is different and you must be prepared to improvise, last textillis wouldn't leave her little spot and was hooked and gently dropped into the bag, Twice she landed with her head out and promptly left the bag.



Exactly how hook and hoop bag is taught.



tyson001 said:


> so the snakes on the courses are not dangerous.



My apologies, I should not have made this comment.
I thought the OP was referring to another training provider who uses similar methods with safe Elapids



imported_Varanus said:


> I've been asked to supply Eastern Brown Snakes for the latest WIRES course in our local area and I can assure you they're straight out of "Bush" (wild caught on relocations).



See above comment.



ssssnakeman said:


> No skin to scale? Have fun with that..
> Every situation is different, every snake is different and can potentially react differently.
> I might be wrong but I think the best teacher is experience,
> These licences should come with L plates and P plates.
> ...



You have been handling for many years and your skills learned over a life time.
Training providers here in WA are not allowed to teach any hands on handling techniques with the belief that there is more risk of a serious bite than if the snake were just allowed to escape.
As Dave pointed out much of the training is provided to the mining sector and their OH&S policies don't allow for a "SKIN TO SCALE" technique.
I'm well aware of the limitations of the hook and bag method but feel that a snake that eludes capture is safer than one that is being held by the tail by somebody fresh out of a 1 day course.





cement said:


> A major difference between courses and the field is the floor surface and the open space that you just don't get out on a catch job. Even if they are wild caught snakes at the course, the floor puts the odds highly in the catchers favour.
> I won't tail adders, but I have had to on two occasions now because of the situation. This same situation applies to almost every catching scenario, if the snake is in a place that is very close to escape, then tailing or pinning is the way to go. And isn't this the case with most call outs? A black or brown in a messy house, needs a quick capture or you run the risk of losing it in the house. If the snakes head is going through a hole, good luck hooking that into a bag.
> 
> quote pp "Part of being a good snake catcher is that one that should be adverse with all methods and regonize that different situations sometimes require different methods and implements."
> ...



Yes but the thread is about completely green people being taught to tail snakes without the ability or experience to read snakes or understand their capabilities.
Get any brown snake in a cluttered shed on a 30+ degree day, pin it, tail it, and then try get it into a tub and put the lid on with only 8 hrs experience and your asking for trouble.
Fair enough it may go un caught with the bag and hook method, but at least nobodies bit.




SniperCap said:


> No skin to scale? Fine on a nice quiet and pretending to be a rock death adder that can be put into a bag with very little effort. No skin to scale contact on a carpet python hiding in a roof crawlspace under a child's bedroom, good luck. Oh and you earn master status if you are able to get a Colubrid into a bag without touching it.
> 
> As those who have been doing this for a while have said, experience is a great teacher but so is common sense.
> 
> My course was two days with 1 being whole theory and the second filled with practical experience starting with carpet pythons and ending with an EB and Coastal Taipan. I learnt more in my first 2 relocations than I did on that course if I was to be honest because being in a vacant hall is heaven compared to waiting out and grabbing a peeved off EB hiding in a wall space.



I thought I made it fairly clear in my original comments that experience was the key and that those wishing to further their skills would soon seek out ways of gaining that experience. I just feel that no skin to scale is a good rule of thumb for an introductory course that caters to complete novices who quite likely wouldn't be able to identify what they were dealing with anyway.


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## spotlight (Nov 12, 2012)

mic772 said:


> C
> Concerning your first comment I would like to see you applie your methods to a scrubie or any other python in a ceiling? and what do you do when its not a snake in the ceiling and find out its a goanna.


mate looking at your location how could you find scrubbies in the Philippines more lic burms and retics LoL ?.


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## Jonno from ERD (Nov 12, 2012)

I've been running "no contact" courses for almost 7 years. We hear a lot of comments from those who like to think safely relocating snakes requires some God-given gift. The vast majority of our clients are industry based - mining, construction, gas, energy, defence, government etc. I would conservatively estimate we have trained over 2000 people in the last 7 years. I am still in contact with many of the course participants and several have commented on this thread. Some of the most successful QLD snake catching businesses have humble roots as participants in our course.

The key to running these courses is what you're teaching them. At the very beginning of the course we tell them that they walk out of here on their P-plates...but in reality, we have had very few come back to us and say they were faced with a situation they couldn't tackle using the techniques we have taught them. We spent less time on techniques and much more time on teaching them "snake psychology" - how to manipulate snakes into doing what you want them to, how to read their behaviour, and how to think outside the square. The proof is in the pudding - what we teach works. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to work with a snake. Maybe some of the detractors should come along and learn a thing or two?


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## cement (Nov 12, 2012)

Elapidae1 said:


> Yes but the thread is about completely green people being taught to tail snakes without the ability or experience to read snakes or understand their capabilities.
> Get any brown snake in a cluttered shed on a 30+ degree day, pin it, tail it, and then try get it into a tub and put the lid on with only 8 hrs experience and your asking for trouble.
> Fair enough it may go un caught with the bag and hook method, but at least nobodies bit.



Yes good point. For any would be catchers out there reading this post, pinning and then tailing a brown in 30+ temps is definatly the wrong way to catch it, and a very good opportunity to get nailed. Even for the experienced.


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## -Peter (Nov 12, 2012)

Thanks for your response Jonno, I always thought gods gift was one of your stronger points myself. I'm playing devil's advocate here. BTW, thanks for the generous offer of attending one of your courses but I couldn't take away the spot of a paying customer.
Contrary to the opinions of a number of people here I do change mind regulary but I dont change my mind without evidence. People telling me something is so doesn't prove anything. Now we have pinning, grippers(tongs?) and whatever else being bandied about. I know these courses are geared for industry and therefore have to comply with OH&S requirements but it seems that novices are being sent out with a bunch of tools that should never be put in the hands of novices and armed with snake psychology and a certificate. There are several very reputable courses run from several states but I still want to know. Are people piggybacking these course to become snake catchers in urban areas? How do you teach snake psychology of the many variede species or are the courses geared specifically for the snakes that they will encounter at the minesite.


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## BIGBANG (Nov 12, 2012)

our course focused on the main snakes the people doing the course would likely deal with, browns, blacks, tigers, and copper heads, where i live i deal majority with browns with the odd tiger thrown in


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## Jonno from ERD (Nov 12, 2012)

-Peter said:


> Thanks for your response Jonno, I always thought gods gift was one of your stronger points myself. I'm playing devil's advocate here. BTW, thanks for the generous offer of attending one of your courses but I couldn't take away the spot of a paying customer.
> Contrary to the opinions of a number of people here I do change mind regulary but I dont change my mind without evidence. People telling me something is so doesn't prove anything. Now we have pinning, grippers(tongs?) and whatever else being bandied about. I know these courses are geared for industry and therefore have to comply with OH&S requirements but it seems that novices are being sent out with a bunch of tools that should never be put in the hands of novices and armed with snake psychology and a certificate. There are several very reputable courses run from several states but I still want to know. Are people piggybacking these course to become snake catchers in urban areas? How do you teach snake psychology of the many variede species or are the courses geared specifically for the snakes that they will encounter at the minesite.



Hi Pete...don't take too much offense. There's a few oldschool snake catchers up here who love the media and hate what I do, and are quite outspoken about it. 

We don't teach pinning or the use of tongs as there are no situations I can think of that occur with enough regularity that require the teaching of such a technique. We also don't teach tailing, as it doesn't matter which way you spin it, that's an absolute guaranteed way to get a novice bitten. Am I correct that a WIRES course had multiple people bitten teaching their "run after it with your hoop bag in front of you, grab it by the tail and hope for the best" techniques?

OH&S requirements are developed after the course, not before it. I am not regulated by anyone with regards to the techniques I teach. I regularly write SOP's for large companies with regards to snake catching and they never try and impede on what processes I implement. The reason I teach the techniques I do is because it is 100% safe, 100% of the time. If the course participants adhere to the boundaries we establish, it's virtually impossible for them to get bitten. 

Snake psychology isn't all that variable amongst species. Approach a snake from head on, you'll get a big defensive response...approach it from behind and it will be much more sedate...this sort of thing. Some of it is more complex, other components are more simple. We have had many experienced herps come through the course, sometimes not by choice (you may remember names like Dave Cavendish from years ago, and more recently Michael Anthony from Cape York). I often feel a bit silly teaching these people who I learnt stuff from throughout my youth, but they all walk away saying they at least learnt something. 

You won't walk away from these courses being able to step into a role milking 100 Taipans a day, but you'll walk away with the foundations to successfully capture and relocate elapids in nearly every situation. Like I said, proof is in the pudding - no bites during, or after a course.


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## BIGBANG (Nov 12, 2012)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Hi Pete...don't take too much offense. There's a few oldschool snake catchers up here who love the media and hate what I do, and are quite outspoken about it.
> 
> We don't teach pinning or the use of tongs as there are no situations I can think of that occur with enough regularity that require the teaching of such a technique. We also don't teach tailing, as it doesn't matter which way you spin it, that's an absolute guaranteed way to get a novice bitten. Am I correct that a WIRES course had multiple people bitten teaching their "run after it with your hoop bag in front of you, grab it by the tail and hope for the best" techniques?
> 
> ...



so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?


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## Wrightpython (Nov 12, 2012)

BIGBANG said:


> so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?


Ask it nicely


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 12, 2012)

With a lot of heavy lifting.


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## Stuart (Nov 12, 2012)

BIGBANG said:


> so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?


In that situation, does it need to be removed or will it remove itself after half an hour?


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## -Peter (Nov 12, 2012)

Jonno from ERD said:


> Am I correct that a WIRES course had multiple people bitten teaching their "run after it with your hoop bag in front of you, grab it by the tail and hope for the best" techniques?



Good story but a story. Theres a lot of animosity towards wildlife groups. People make up all sorts of stuff. I dont really understand it myself. Elitism probably. As far as I know only one person has ever been bitten on a WIRES course and that was a trainer. A channel 7 camera man shoved a camera in her face when she was wrangling a brown. Thus our rule of no cameras during traing.
There was the idiot on our course who got bitten by the red belly though. He blamed the heat.


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## BIGBANG (Nov 12, 2012)

SniperCap said:


> In that situation, does it need to be removed or will it remove itself after half an hour?



like i have said in other posts mate people round here arent gunna wait patiently for it to finish up doing what ever it is doing, the farmers will just open fire and shoot it if they cant get at it with a shovel, i think the no skin to scale idea might work in some cases but only teaching people that could cause its own problems


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## -Peter (Nov 13, 2012)

When it comes to the crunch. If you can deal with a snake without having to place your hands on it then its a winning situation.


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## Fuscus (Nov 16, 2012)

-Peter said:


> When it comes to the crunch. If you can deal with a snake without having to place your hands on it then its a winning situation.


Most of the time you don't need to touch elapids. However most of my python and colubrid relocations are hands on affairs. The tend it be wrapped around something and you need to grab and untangle. So far only one elapid I've encountered has been wrapped around something or off the ground.


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## MrFireStorm (Nov 16, 2012)

Fuscus said:


> Most of the time you don't need to touch elapids. So far only one elapid I've encountered has been wrapped around something or off the ground.



Wish that was the case down here. I have had numerous calls to remove tigers and copperheads from birdnetting. Worst thing is they don't seem to appreciate the help you are giving them and still try to bite, even after being released from the net.

Daz


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## imported_Varanus (Nov 16, 2012)

Birdnetting, a very large EB stuck half way through a chicken wire fence (2kg snake), garden sleeper holes, aggy pipes/ fixtures, steel goal posts, down a toilet- all these so far this season (first removal 24/ august). We deal with 100+ callouts most seasons and 90% of those are textillis. In Grafton, I've heard 350+ calls, but alot of pythons/ green trees in the mix also. JMO, but I reckon the more callouts you do, the more situations require no touch (see ya later-dead snake) or hands on.

BTW, I've done WIRES courses and Jonno's Elapid Husbandry course and can't see what all the animosity is about? Surely, any learning experience is a plus.


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## -Peter (Nov 16, 2012)

I doubt industry courses cover bird netting.


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## cement (Nov 18, 2012)

I don't know of any course that covers bird netting, but as a snake catcher you will encounter it. Not to mention snakes in cars, cluttered garages and even christmas trees!


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## CaptainRatbag (Nov 18, 2012)

mic772 said:


> C
> Concerning your first comment I would like to see you applie your methods to a scrubie or any other python in a ceiling? and what do you do when its not a snake in the ceiling and find out its a goanna.



Bigbanger was talking about wild vens more than likely in the scrub/in someones garden..... not pythons 

- - - Updated - - -



imported_Varanus said:


> Try this without skin to scale!....a latex glove would have been good....but I know what you mean.



That would have been a pain in the rrr's if you didnt notice it :shock:

Most people would just flush :lol:

- - - Updated - - -



Jonno from ERD said:


> , we have had very few come back to us and say they were faced with a situation they couldn't tackle using the techniques we have taught them




Maybe all the others got bitten and carked it? :shock:




Just joshin' :facepalm: sorry, couldn't resist :lol:

- - - Updated - - -



BIGBANG said:


> so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?




Shovel? A 12 gauge? :lol:


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## imported_Varanus (Nov 18, 2012)

CaptainRatbag said:


> That would have been a pain in the rrr's if you didnt notice it :shock:
> 
> Most people would just flush :lol:



That was an added extra...she did! Several times, with hot water and bleach added to the cocktail. Needless to say, it was a very shiny snake after a polish up!


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## eipper (Nov 18, 2012)

Peter,

my course covers alum cans, netting, wire mesh and glue traps


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## junglelove (Nov 21, 2012)

wowsers! i have done 2 courses plus worked in the profesional reptile indusrty and there is no way that company should be passing people on a one day course! (both courses were over a 2 day period 8am to 5pm and held by well known people in the herp world)


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## Elapidae1 (Nov 21, 2012)

So did you pass and do you think 4 days is satisfactory?


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## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2012)

Are you able to expand on this Junglelove? What's your role in the professional reptile industry, and who have you completed your courses with? Why don't you think it's possible to teach people what they need to know in a single day? I have worked in a professional capacity, specifically with venomous snakes, for the last 9 years and I seem to think it's totally possible.


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## jairusthevirus21 (Nov 22, 2012)

It probably is for some... others might take a bit longer...


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## Jonno from ERD (Nov 22, 2012)

We host a pass/fail course, and don't hesitate to fail people. However, the vast majority are able to pick up the techniques and knowledge quite rapidly. When you break it down, it's all quite simple. It's important to remember we're not teaching people how to tail, how to keep stuff in captivity or how to perform head restraints. As I've said earlier, the proof is in the pudding - 2000+ trained individuals, many of whom have set up their own relocation businesses which are quite successful.


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