# Mating ball



## benc63 (Nov 2, 2015)

It has definitely been a great Spring so far. The highlight so far would have to be a mating ball of 6 Diamond pythons that I have been watching now for the last two weeks.





One large female and 5 much smaller males started gathering in an old shed about a month ago and are now inseparable.


























Mid morning the female will come out to bask and the 5 males will follow. As she heats up , she will move in and out of cover until she retires for the night around 4.pm.


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## Snapped (Nov 2, 2015)

Great photos!


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## pythoninfinite (Nov 3, 2015)

Yes indeed great photos! Friends of mine in Kundabung (between Kempsey and Port Macquarie) where I work in their nursery sometimes, have a similar group of intergrades in an old house on their property - I counted 4 males and one very large (well over 2m) female in the sun on the roof last week, and we've seen them around as a group for the last 5-6 weeks. They do exactly as benc63 describes, moving in & out of the sun until they retire late in the arvo.

Jamie


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## Dragon_77 (Nov 3, 2015)

Wish l could see 6 Diamond Pythons in my garage together that a free to come and go as they like awesome photos thanks for sharing.

Les.


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## BredliFreak (Nov 3, 2015)

Awesome! 

You are very lucky, I'm lucky to see one 

Bredli


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## cement (Nov 3, 2015)

Great photos! She is an absoluter cracker and in top condition, a very significant resident animal.
Doesn't look like she's hooked up in that photo, but thats pretty normal for the day.... can garantee they are putting the nights to good use though!


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## ronhalling (Nov 3, 2015)

Wow! What a great mix of colours and sizes, seen something similar in the shed at the fish farm near where Jamie was talking about, but none of them were as beautiful as them. .......................Ron


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## GBWhite (Nov 3, 2015)

ronhalling said:


> Wow! What a great mix of colours and sizes, seen something similar in the shed at the fish farm near where Jamie was talking about, but none of them were as beautiful as them. .......................Ron



Hi Ron,

That's because these guys hail from the Sydney Sandstone Basin where the distinct colours and patterns have evolved as a camouflage strategy to assist with hiding them within the crevices consistent with the sandstone formations. Hence the name Morelia spilota sp (Spotted Morelia). Anyone who's done any collecting around the Sydney Sandstone Bioregion would be aware how this strategy is also adopted by H Bungaroides. 

Basically the colour pattern of yellow/white spots on black background is identical to sand trapped in spider webs constructed inside the sandstone crevices and hence make it extremely difficult to differentiate between the two. 

Likewise the colour and patterns of the Morelia where you live are consistent with a survival strategy for the environment where they exist outside the Sydney Sandstone Bioregion.

Some people refer to those in your area as intergrades but I'm not alone in my opinion that there is no such thing. It is a term that evolved some years back as a means to attempt to identify the reasons for colour and patterns of M. spilota located in the transition zone between the Sydney Sandstone Bioregion and the Mid North Coast Bioregion.

Back to the topic at hand; this is a great find benc63 as are the photos.

I remember years ago finding 3 mating groups of "Diamonds" within a couple of hundred metres during a morning of field work with some friends on a sandstone escarpment at a location south west of Nowra on the NSW South Coast. It was interesting to watch a couple of males, each follow individual pheromone trails laid down by a female along the ground and up an almost vertical climb to where she was located with a couple of other males atop a sandstone ridge. 

I find it interesting how the males throughout the southern coastal range of the Morelia sp group are complacent enough to aggregate in mating balls without displaying any form of aggression toward each other unlike their counterparts on the north coast which appear to be the complete opposite.

I've attached a link to a paper by Mark Fitzgerald on the variations in mating systems between populations of Morelia spilota for anyone interested in having a read. It also discusses size difference in males from the southern region to those of the NSW North Coast and southern Qld. 

http://sydney.edu.au/science/biolog...rs_pubs/fitzgerald_mark/144sizedimorphism.pdf

Cheers,

George.


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## ronhalling (Nov 4, 2015)

@GBWhite, thanks for that info George, that link you put up was very interesting, although i could not fathom the statement about southern Morelia Sp males being bigger than their Northern counterparts because of the Southern climate being colder and therefore the longer the snake the easier it is to pack on fat, i have seen some pretty fat Northern males (although they were power fed) every week is an educational 1 for me on this forum, i am so glad it is back on point.  ...............Ron 

P.S
And the statement you made about the southern sp mating aggregations is also proved out in that study, not that i doubted you m8 but it is always good to see the proof of the pudding in black and white <------ no pun intended, it just increases your credibility.


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## brandosmith (Nov 4, 2015)

So these aren't pets they're just in the wild?
And 5 males just hang around & don't fight? They're the opposite of like every other species in the world. 
I've just read this thread completely confused and amazed, so correct me if I've got that wrong. 
Amazing photos too!

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## pythoninfinite (Nov 4, 2015)

Carpets are a diverse group, not all regional variations indulge in male combat.

Hi George, I'm pretty much with you on the intergrade thing, I just use the term to note the regional difference in appearance really. My first awareness of the term came from Worrell, where he coined the name "Dorrigo-Kempsey Intergrade" to describe these snakes in his books which were my bibles in the 60s. I'm not up to speed with any more recent DNA work done on the Carpets along the east coast, but it's highly likely to me that these animals are pretty much one in the same, but simply display pattern variations related to habitat. 

Jamie


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## jack (Nov 4, 2015)

GBWhite said:


> Basically the colour pattern of yellow/white spots on black background is identical to sand trapped in spider webs constructed inside the sandstone crevices and hence make it extremely difficult to differentiate between the two.



An interesting hypothesis, I haven't heard that one before.


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## twistedFrog (Nov 5, 2015)

[MENTION=39076]GBWhite[/MENTION] thanks for that link, really appreciate it, learning all the time, reading every day and a quick link to a paper like that is invaluable! Cheers

- - - Updated - - -

Great thread thanks for sharing [MENTION=11395]benc63[/MENTION] my biggest soft spolita love em!! Great pics too


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## brandosmith (Nov 5, 2015)

In this case will only one male create a clutch with the female? Or will she have multiple clutches/hatchlings with different dads

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## cement (Nov 5, 2015)

I don't see any reason why she won't have offspring from different males, and consider it benificial to their survival as a species. I can't speak for any where else but the central coast (though many other shires are very similar) but here, many places exist where pythons are probably subjected to inbreeding,..... to have multiple males fertilizing a clutch of 20-30 eggs would potentially be better for the gene pool overall.
In my opinion, the males help in many ways, Ive checked body temps of females in breeding balls and compared them to a single female (also gravid), kept in exactly the same conditions and the more the snakes the warmer the female is kept. Very good technique down south here where it is cooler .... right now outside its been raining for the last two days solid, heavy winds, thunderstorms on the weekend, lows of 13 -14 deg's. Its good for her to have the extra heat to promote and maintain follicle growth and to ovulate to be able to lay a good clutch. 
The addition of two males can maintain a 4-7 degree heat difference in the females ext body temp later into the night.


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## brandosmith (Nov 6, 2015)

cement said:


> I don't see any reason why she won't have offspring from different males, and consider it benificial to their survival as a species. I can't speak for any where else but the central coast (though many other shires are very similar) but here, many places exist where pythons are probably subjected to inbreeding,..... to have multiple males fertilizing a clutch of 20-30 eggs would potentially be better for the gene pool overall.
> In my opinion, the males help in many ways, Ive checked body temps of females in breeding balls and compared them to a single female (also gravid), kept in exactly the same conditions and the more the snakes the warmer the female is kept. Very good technique down south here where it is cooler .... right now outside its been raining for the last two days solid, heavy winds, thunderstorms on the weekend, lows of 13 -14 deg's. Its good for her to have the extra heat to promote and maintain follicle growth and to ovulate to be able to lay a good clutch.
> The addition of two males can maintain a 4-7 degree heat difference in the females ext body temp later into the night.


I didn't know that they could lay multiple clutches, that's what I'm asking. Within one breeding season can she have multiple clutches with mutiple males or will eggs be fertilised by multiple males in one clutch?

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## Ryan-James (Nov 6, 2015)

One clutch with multiple males fathering the progeny from that one clutch of eggs


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## cement (Nov 6, 2015)

she'll lay one clutch this xmas, with a good season or two of finding plenty of good food afterwards, she may go again. She's big enough to know her turf and her hunting grounds but can be years between clutches, .. is living in the wild.


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## brandosmith (Nov 6, 2015)

Ryan-James said:


> One clutch with multiple males fathering the progeny from that one clutch of eggs


So interesting!!!

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## GBWhite (Nov 7, 2015)

jack said:


> An interesting hypothesis, I haven't heard that one before.



It's an hypothesis based on personal observations over endless numbers of days in the field searching and peering into crevices looking for Hops around the Sydney Sandstone Bioregion during my younger years.

It doesn't surprise me that you haven't heard of it before, except for disclosing it to a couple of close friends over the years, this is the first time I've mentioned it publicly. For reason that I believe you may be aware, I'm very cautious with who I share a lot of my personal knowledge with these days. In saying that I'm happy to let this one slip through to the wicket keeper.

I'm equally surprised that considering the amount of time that you've spent searching amongst the sandstone that you haven't considered it yourself yet. 

Cheers,

George.


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## Ryan-James (Nov 7, 2015)

Thats a very credible explanation GB and makes perfect sense.


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## cement (Nov 8, 2015)

Another explanation is the fact that when you stand and look at the bush around here and pull apart the colours you see, they are predominantly black, green and yellow.
If you've ever released a diamond back into the bush and marvelled at the way they melt back into the environment its easy to see how they camoflage in. 
A lot of call outs are to people who say they have a "green" python. But they don't actually have the colour green on them. The pattern of the black, yellow and white, plus the reflecting of light off the scales can give the snake a greenish tinge. 
Though diamond males are very much lovers and not fighters, dominance can still be an issue with them. I have observed wild males wrestle, when a new male entered the scene,
though shortlived and without biting.


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