# Display Licence



## Nero Egernia (Feb 5, 2016)

***Slight Vent Warning***

Right, at the moment I think I may feel better if I were to be bashing my head on a brick wall or something. Iv'e visited a few reptile keepers in WA and I see oh, a pair of Lace Monitors, oh, and a Central Bearded Dragon, but wait, not one, three(!) and, oh a Northern Blue-tongue! 

I'm just like "Wow, I didn't think you were allowed to keep them here!" and the reptile keepers reply, "Oh no, of course not, you're not allowed to keep them here on a regular licence, but we have a display licence"! A display licence! Well! It's perfectly fine that they are out displaying reptiles to the general public and educating them, but _really_? Why are the species on our lists any less qualified to be displayed to the public? I thought the reason why WA was so restrictive was to protect the WA reptile population from diseases and the probability that some captive non-native species may escape and invade upon environmental niches and therefore may compete with our native species! So why allow this then? It's not so bad that the Northern Blue-tongue is allowed because it does range into WA but the other species? They only take their display animals out once a month or so - maybe more or less - to show to the general public and then once they are done with that they are taken home and treated just like any pet reptile. I just can't get my head around this, can't justify why it's allowed. I am positively envious right now. Just lucky, they are. I would in all probability sell my soul so I could keep a Central Bearded Dragon - or other non-permitted species like Water Dragons or Green Tree Pythons etc. Phew, vent over. I should probably just move state.

But on a more serious note, can anyone enlighten me as to why this happens? In other states, are people on a display licence also permitted to keep reptiles that a regular keeper can't have? What exactly is involved in a display licence?


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## cement (Feb 5, 2016)

I know that in NSW here with an "exhibition" permit you can have crocs.
But no one else can. not even on an advanced lic, pretty disappointed with that


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## butters (Feb 5, 2016)

In queensland the only difference reptile wise is you can keep crocs but other than that it's the same species. Biggest difference here is you can keep mammals on a demonstrators.


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## arevenant (Feb 6, 2016)

While down in Vic, on an advanced license you can own just about everything under the sun for a few bucks more a year...


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## butters (Feb 6, 2016)

arevenant said:


> While down in Vic, on an advanced license you can own just about everything under the sun for a few bucks more a year...



Really? I was under the impression the list in Vic was limited? Does the advanced allow everything?
In queensland it's similar, I can keep pretty much any terrestrial, freshwater reptile or frog except a croc if I have the right license. If I can obtain it legally that is I can keep it. 
Mammals though is a different story. Can't keep any. Bit silly as there are some native mammals that do very well in captivity.


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## longirostris (Feb 7, 2016)

arevenant said:


> While down in Vic, on an advanced license you can own just about everything under the sun for a few bucks more a year...



One of the main reasons I chose to fly back and forth to Melbourne from the South Coast of NSW, to work in Melbourne every week was because If I moved back there to live I would have had to sell off more than half the species in my dragon collection before they would give me a permit to keep the rest. You can't even have Mountain dragons down there yet up here people are breeding them like flies and cant get more then $50.00 each for them. Ridiculous in my opinion. 

At least in NSW if you can prove that you are acquiring the animal through legitimate means and from or through a legal process or person then NPWS will more than likely give you a permit to keep it even if it is not on current keeping schedules. I have never had a situation where I have been refused a permit, even though I have had several instances where I have had to prove the origin of the animals I was importing. The only issue we have ever really had here was the speed of processing import applications and even that has improved quite a lot over the years.


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## Nero Egernia (Feb 7, 2016)

Thanks for the input everyone. Sometimes the paperwork involved and some of the laws that are in place can seem silly, if not ridiculous. A few of the WA laws seem absolutely bizarre to me when in comparison to other states. It's a little confusing as to why a crocodile can only be kept on a display licence. Why couldn't a private keeper who's not interested in displaying be any less qualified to care for a crocodile? They may have the same amount of knowledge and experience as one who displays. Also, you would think it would be considerably less stressful for a crocodile - or any herpetofauna - to stay at home on the private keeper's premises rather than being hauled off to shows to be goggled at. 

I think I remember checking out the species list for NSW(?) and they had pages of herpetofauna that were allowed to be kept. Why, I'm pretty sure that many WA native species were permitted, whereas in WA they're not even on our list! 

It's interesting how each state has different laws. Does anyone know why all the states don't have the same laws and licensing systems? Why are people who display are permitted to keep more species?


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## Tigerlily (Feb 21, 2016)

I really empathise with you... WA is such a beautiful state, but the laws regarding wildlife are way too harsh. It IS interesting how the rules are so different throughout the states... Frustrating, though. 

Maybe we could start a petition to update them... I am a lazy person but if someone did the work to get one up, I know I'd sign it at least


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## pinefamily (Feb 21, 2016)

The reason the states all have different laws (and not just for reptile-keeping) dates back to them being separate colonies. But do you think they can ever find agreement on anything? It is simply empire-building. When the federal government tried to introduce a national occupational health and safety act so that everyone everywhere could protected the same, Vic and WA refused to sign.
Here in SA, there is a basic licence, and then a scale of advanced licences, depending on what you want to keep. Even the basic one has birds, mammals and reptiles on it.The rule is, if you don't see it on the basic, then it's advanced. To keep anything not on the basic, you must provide "proof" that you are competent to keep that animal; references from other keepers of that animal are required.


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## dragonlover1 (Feb 21, 2016)

while here in NSW to upgrade your licence you only need to have owned similar animals;
so if I own a childrens for 2 years I can upgrade to an RBB.


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## Dragon_77 (Feb 21, 2016)

Here in Victoria you cannot keep Perentie - Yollow Spotted - Black-Palm & Kimberley Rock Monitor's, on a basic or advance licence, but you can have them if you have a demonstration or display licence.

What annoys me is we can have a Fresh & Salt Water Crocodile, but not any of the 4 Monitor species l mention above how stupid is our wildlife laws in each state of Australia.


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## Bushfire (Feb 21, 2016)

longirostris said:


> At least in NSW if you can prove that you are acquiring the animal through legitimate means and from or through a legal process or person then NPWS will more than likely give you a permit to keep it even if it is not on current keeping schedules. I have never had a situation where I have been refused a permit, even though I have had several instances where I have had to prove the origin of the animals I was importing. The only issue we have ever really had here was the speed of processing import applications and even that has improved quite a lot over the years.



This used to be the case pre May 2015, unfortunately not so now. In May 2015 in response to the biodiversity legislation review the wildlife licensing unit created a policy in which any species that is not listed in the 2015 species list will not be approved for import or export permits. I say export permits because there is a reasonable number of species that are legally being kept (legally imported before May 2015) but not officially published on the list so therefore no one new can import those species. I've experienced this problem a few times with a couple of species. Once I was even told the species is not held in nsw despite me legally holding them with import documentation. This also presents a legally gray area for those keepers. Technically speaking say with your non listed dragons that you of course legally hold, you manage to breed these, you can not sell them to any other nsw keeper. On every license there is a statement that says only approved and published species can be held. Unfortunately as non listed species are not published in the 2015 species list license holders are not authorised to hold that species, however yourself would have a reasonable excuse as the department gave you the permit. If some had their way as soon as they come aware of this situation you could be asked to legally despose of them interstate as soon as practicable (unfortunately this has happened to a keeper already).


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## longirostris (Feb 23, 2016)

Bushfire said:


> This used to be the case pre May 2015, unfortunately not so now. In May 2015 in response to the biodiversity legislation review the wildlife licensing unit created a policy in which any species that is not listed in the 2015 species list will not be approved for import or export permits. I say export permits because there is a reasonable number of species that are legally being kept (legally imported before May 2015) but not officially published on the list so therefore no one new can import those species. I've experienced this problem a few times with a couple of species. Once I was even told the species is not held in nsw despite me legally holding them with import documentation. This also presents a legally gray area for those keepers. Technically speaking say with your non listed dragons that you of course legally hold, you manage to breed these, you can not sell them to any other nsw keeper. On every license there is a statement that says only approved and published species can be held. Unfortunately as non listed species are not published in the 2015 species list license holders are not authorised to hold that species, however yourself would have a reasonable excuse as the department gave you the permit. If some had their way as soon as they come aware of this situation you could be asked to legally despose of them interstate as soon as practicable (unfortunately this has happened to a keeper already).



I was not aware of this, having not imported or exported any non scheduled species in the last couple of years, it just has not become an issue for me. thanks for the heads up. As a result of your post I actually got on to the NPWS website and checked out the 2015 Scheduled Species List. You are quite correct Bushfire, right there on page 2 of the 29 page publication paragraph number 2 is the explicit comment on freezing the addition of new species to the Scheduled list. 

For me though there is still a bit of a grey area because most of the species that I have imported over the years that are not on the scheduled species lists have never been added to the lists anyway with the exception of a couple of species. I have never asked for them to be added to schedules when applying for an import permit. I just wanted a permit to keep them in NSW. If they were included on schedules then that was ok and good. The one or two that were added I must admit surprised me though because there was little if any chance of that particular species becoming commercially or readily available in the hobby. To this date I have never seen D.bennetti being offered for sale publically anywhere in Australia let alone NSW, so its inclusion on schedules still surprises me and seems to be at odds with what NPWS are trying to achieve with their moratorium on new species being added to the scheduled species lists. Why D.bennetti or P.microlepidota are on the list yet C.fordi, T.centralis or T.intima are not is intriguing.

What I find particularly interesting in this new development is that hybrid species are still actually included in the schedules yet animals that I have been keeping for several years that are genuinely recognised species that were and can still be legally acquired are now apparently subject to a whimsical decision making process as to whether I can import any more of them if not an outright ban on being able to do so. I would have thought that if there was to be a focus on controlling aspects of herpetoculturalists activities then it would be a focus on breeding activities that NPWS by its own admission and comment in point 3 under para 2 on page 2 of the 2015 Species list actualy states it does not support. Surely then the obvious way to deal with this is to remove them from the species list completely but allow current holders to keep existing stock and any further progeny produced. Why include Morelia spilota unknown, a hybrid python with some parentage unknown, WT?, why is this even on the list, sure, give who ever has them a permit to keep them, but surely not include them on a scheduled species list.

Seems to me there are some confusing messages with what I am seeing in this new Scheduled species list (partiularly some of the comments on page 2) and what we have heard is taking place from Bushfire. Let us hope that the common sense approach that NPWS have always had in the past with respect to import and export of non scheduled wildlife doesn't get chucked out with the bath water for the sake of and because of a review.


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## Snowman (Mar 29, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> ***Slight Vent Warning***
> 
> Right, at the moment I think I may feel better if I were to be bashing my head on a brick wall or something. Iv'e visited a few reptile keepers in WA and I see oh, a pair of Lace Monitors, oh, and a Central Bearded Dragon, but wait, not one, three(!) and, oh a Northern Blue-tongue!
> 
> ...



The chick that got the lace monitors lied to get them. She told DPaW she was opening a wildlife park hahaha. Thing is she cant even pass the test to get a WA dealers license! I kid you not.....


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## sebii (Mar 29, 2016)

So which is the best state to keep reptiles license-wise?


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 29, 2016)

Snowman said:


> The chick that got the lace monitors lied to get them. She told DPaW she was opening a wildlife park hahaha. Thing is she cant even pass the test to get a WA dealers license! I kid you not.....



Really? :shock: I don't mean to gossip or anything of the sort, I hope my post didn't appear as so. I was just incredibly green with envy. I never knew you needed to do a test to get a Dealers licence.


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## Snowman (Mar 29, 2016)

Oshkii said:


> Really? :shock: I don't mean to gossip or anything of the sort, I hope my post didn't appear as so. I was just incredibly green with envy. I never new you needed to do a test to get a Dealers licence.



It's an easy test  You just have to be able to identify from photo's the animals on the keepers list. For some reason DPaW expect dealers to know what they are selling 
Meh, some gossip is needed, because there's a lot of people pretending they know loads about reptiles when they can't even identify the ones we can keep!

- - - Updated - - -



sebii said:


> So which is the best state to keep reptiles license-wise?



Probably NSW. I always thought QLD, but the whole two woma's etc is absurd.


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## Nero Egernia (Mar 29, 2016)

Snowman said:


> It's an easy test  You just have to be able to identify from photo's the animals on the keepers list. For some reason DPaW expect dealers to know what they are selling
> Meh, some gossip is needed, because there's a lot of people pretending they know loads about reptiles when they can't even identify the ones we can keep!



Maybe I should apply.  I'm a bit of a bookworm when it comes to reptiles/amphibians so should have no problems. Also, I can't generally find the critters I would like to keep, usually can't find the locales I like. But I find them easily enough out in the bush.

EDIT: Disregard that, I was thinking of a Taker's Licence. :facepalm:


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