# GTP breeding



## Renee (Nov 4, 2007)

Ok guys, hypothetical question...

Lets just say I had the money to purchase a pair of breeding chondro's, and a good setup for them...

Do you think it would be profitable to breed them, is there much of a market for them in Aus, and are they difficult to breed (once you have read the More Complete Chondro of course  

What do you think?


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## MrBredli (Nov 4, 2007)

There is a massive market, lots of money to be made. They are not particularly harder to breed than any other species of python.


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## wil (Nov 4, 2007)

go for it!


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## RevDaniel (Nov 4, 2007)

are you licensed to keep them yet?


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## pythonius (Nov 4, 2007)

i think the problem is not the market but the price
let me rephrase that
everyone wants chondros but noone seems to have the money
also by noone i mean 95% of the population wouldnt spend it on 'just a snake'
although i think if YOU had the money to setup a breeding pair of gtp properly and you made sure they were good colouring, temperament, good feeders and took good care of them so as to make sure they were always clean etc... (ive seen many setups where people just shouldnt be keeping snakes cause they either dont have the time, dedication or maturity to do so) and then approached the 5% 'Right' crowd there could possibly be a half decent profit in it for you
just remember though when you say profit do you include all the time you spend with them, cost of food, time it takes to raise and 'teach' them that it is safe around you and in some cases even cost of selling
also remember that it takes you anywhere between 18mths and 4years to get them to the right size and even then they may not breed and you will realise you could possibly need more to get them to do what you are after
all in all i dont think 'profit' is the right word
but hey hope that helps


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## southy (Nov 4, 2007)

ok lets say a pair and setup costs you around $40,000 which is prob too much but lets work with that. say you only breed 10 babies which is a small clutch from what i understand and you sell them each for 5 grand. straight away you profit 10 grand. then every year after that is extra profit. there is a market for them in aus and the reason they are worth so much is because they are harder to breed then other pythons. i have never kept or bred them but someone else can prob tell you better if im close or not


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## Retic (Nov 4, 2007)

There is a big market, they aren't difficult to breed and the price is coming down which makes them available to more people. You can pick up a breeding pair for 30k, first year they breed you are already ahead.


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## MrBredli (Nov 4, 2007)

southy said:


> there is a market for them in aus and the reason they are worth so much is because they are harder to breed then other pythons.


 
The reason they are worth so much is because they are highly sought after (due to their beautiful colours) and because there are so few in captivity. That number is increasing and the price is dropping now, but they will continue to be a highly sought after species for a very long time. They are not hard to breed and have large clutches so they are becoming more freely available, but even still there is just an overwhelming demand for them, so the prices will stay fairly high for quite some time.


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## tan (Nov 4, 2007)

I think experience would be a key issue here, especially after reading Simon Stones article in the GTP special of reptiles australia. Simon who is an experienced herper even lost a few babies he had bought for himself when venturing into GTPs. My main concern would be that I would be confident enough in my own abilities to properly care for these animals (ie in case of prolapse etc) and be prepared to kiss goodbye that amount of money if something unfortunate did happen (I think from memory Simon lost two or three initially) not to mention the heartbreak of losing one in itself. Although, a GTP is a lot of peoples dreams (including mine) and I hope one day we all get to achieve our dreams. I have contemplated purchasing a pair however, want to be completely and utterly confident in my own abilities before I will.


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## PhilK (Nov 4, 2007)

I'd say (and I don't have a clue about GTPs min) that if you bought a breeding pair, they'd probably pay for themselves after the first clutch or two? The rest is profit hahaa


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## MrBredli (Nov 4, 2007)

Same goes for any pair of snakes really.


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## PhilK (Nov 4, 2007)

That's true.. But I s'pose the amount of money you're dealing with is larger here.

I wonder if you were pretty well-off, if you could get one or two pairs and just breed away for an extra bit of 'pocket' money. (I wonder what the proft would be, all things considered)


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## tan (Nov 4, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> Same goes for any pair of snakes really.


 
I agree, I was more referring to the ability to deal with situations such as ailments, prolapses etc, by myself in case vets may not be able to help for example. I believe prolapse is more common in GTPs than a coastal for eg. Good luck with your venture if you choose to go ahead.


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## dragon-lover (Nov 4, 2007)

If money wasn't such an issue I'd definitely buy one or two of these. They are such a pretty snake and another Morelia for my ever-growing Morelia collection. It wouldn't worry me if they never bred but to be able to breed them would be a rewarding experience - knowing I must have got something right.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Nov 4, 2007)

I think you would need a restricted licence to breed GTPs, because the QLD rec licence says you can have 2 restricted animals. That's fine when you buy your pair, but when you breed them you will have a lot more than two :? so you would need to upgrade your licence. 

Besides that, if you can afford a breeding pair then go for it!


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## x_aussie_bloke_x (Nov 4, 2007)

any 1 got any set ups for there GTP?


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## OzGecko (Nov 4, 2007)

Just my opinion, but the problem you will find is firstly, not everyone has a spare $5000-$7000 to spend on a single python. The next problem is the other breeders out there that have been breeding this species for a number of seasons already, releasing a few offspring, but holding back other animals to increase their own breeding group. By the time your animals (if not a mature pair) are reafy to breed the other breeders will have already flooded (to an extent) the market.


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## cma_369 (Nov 4, 2007)

x_aussie_bloke_x said:


> any 1 got any set ups for there GTP?


You mean any one stupid enough to state on an open forum that they have breeding gtps?


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## Baghdady (Nov 4, 2007)

There is a huge market for GTPs , and no shortage of people willing and able to part with 5-15k for the privilage to own and care for such a beautiful species. As an owner and breeder of them I can say that they are not the easiest of pythons to care for and do require a little more attention than most other breeds. I belive that the price will remain much the same for quite a few years to come. Good luck with your venture if you choose to try it out ..


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## Baghdady (Nov 4, 2007)

PS . As for stating involvment with GTPs on an open forum. I havn't noticed anyone breeding or holding giving name , address and combo to their breeding facility so why would this matter


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## aspidito (Nov 4, 2007)

*The GTP risk*

Listen to the advise of Tan & Baghdady, People like Simon have spent top dollar for the best of the best & even with many years of diversified experience have lost animals, imagine spending 40 grand & one dies after 6 months, 50% of your sustantial investment lost just like that! will you then spend another 20 grand & take the risk again. It will never work if you are just trying to make money, why not invest in a couple of albinos & get some experience, same price & still in demand & will be for many many years, very easy to keep & breed, when you have succesfully bred buy some GTP's with the resulting profit


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## salebrosus (Nov 4, 2007)

I'm curious, are you interested in GTP's because you like the snake and want them or only to make $$$$$ out of them?

Simone.


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## scorps (Nov 4, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> I'm curious, are you interested in GTP's because you like the snake and want them or only to make $$$$$ out of them?
> 
> Simone.




id say his answer would be a lil bit of both but id say that would be the answer of a lot or poepel keeping snakes wether they admit it or not and making profit isnt a bad thing what do you think southern x or even private keepers whos only income is thier snakes doesnt mean they dont like their snakes


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## SnakeWrangler (Nov 4, 2007)

Renee said:


> is there much of a market for them in Aus


Is that supposed to be a joke?? :lol:

I reckon you'd be crazy not to, but thats just me...


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## Renee (Nov 4, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> I'm curious, are you interested in GTP's because you like the snake and want them or only to make $$$$$ out of them?
> 
> Simone.


 
Simone, to answer your question, I am obsessed with them. They are an incredible animal and it would be a privelige for me to be able to own one. However, like alot of herpers out there, I wouldnt be able to afford to spend 15 grand on a pretty pet just to look at. Wouldn't it be rewarding to be able to say that your job was to breed one of the most magnificent species in the herp world? I would be very selective as to who I were to give any hatchies to.

I am definately not in this just for the money, but, it would definately be able to help me justify buying a pair of these beauties. 

Is that a fair answer Simone?


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## Snow1369 (Nov 4, 2007)

If i owned GTP's i wouldn't be scared to admit to them, there going down to much for anyone to care, and if i owned them i'd have to have atleast some sort of security system that works  They look nice but going from what i've heard, and have been told they are damn boring.


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## zulu (Nov 4, 2007)

*re GTP*

Popularity of Gtps espescially the australian ones would be the fact that there is no breeding imformation available after a study of a couple of years,didnt think it would be made available as a condition of study approval by Qld Nats and the victorian Govt has a similar policy with diamond pythons in their state.


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## PhilK (Nov 4, 2007)

cma_369 said:


> You mean any one stupid enough to state on an open forum that they have breeding gtps?


I never really understood this. If nobody knows my address or my full name, how could they come to my house and take my snakes?

Why do they die so easy?


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## Jason (Nov 5, 2007)

imo, there are HEEPS of people wanting to keep them BUT that is verty different then havinga high demand! you need to remember that alot of the members on this forum and many others are just kids with little experience, having them say they want to keep, breed chondros etc is far rom adding to the demand cause they have no effect on the prices. IMO the demand is really only determined by those who are actually in the possition to purchase a green and as a few of you have said there isnt many willing to part with 5K.

what im trying to say is that there are HEEPS of people simply wanting to keep them, but realisticly there isnt many people in the position to purchase them. the price will drop over the nex few yrs until it gets to a price where more people can afford them.

having said all that, 10eggs is a pretty good amount of babies even for some of the most experienced GTP breeders. i was talking to a reputable breeders last night and he said that after alot of yrs of GTP breeing he still loses 40% of the clutch.


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## Retic (Nov 5, 2007)

You will find that there are more than enough buyers in the country to take whatever is bred, the price has been dropping over the last few years with this season talk of good established feeders being available for $5000. There is certainly no reason I can think of to lose 40% of a clutch with all the information available to us and the huge numbers that have been bred around the world.


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## beardy_boy99 (Nov 5, 2007)

Just out of curiosity, what size enc. would you need for 2 adults?
Cheers


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## cma_369 (Nov 5, 2007)

PhilK said:


> I never really understood this. If nobody knows my address or my full name, how could they come to my house and take my snakes?


 
Remember what happend to a fellow member's lace monitors a while back.....yeah he most obviously listed his address under each pic and the times he wouldnt be home...

Also i advise for good reading, read the sticky above by coils...then you will realise why people wont openly admit they have gtp on open forums.


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## aspidito (Nov 5, 2007)

Jason said:


> having said all that, 10eggs is a pretty good amount of babies even for some of the most experienced GTP breeders. i was talking to a reputable breeders last night and he said that after alot of yrs of GTP breeing he still loses 40% of the clutch.



Mate this guy must be doing something seriously wrong to loose that amount, thats like 6 out of a clutch of 16, some hatchies can be very difficult to start eating, maybe he gives up on them


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## Baghdady (Nov 5, 2007)

There is huge demand as is with Albino, and we can not keep up with enquiry for purchase. I personally could sell 4 times what I hatch. As for losing 40% of clutches, Those breeders need to take a serious look at what they are doing with thier incubation methods. They are clearly having issues that need to be addressed. As I mentioned earlier in this thread ,Their are an absolute abundence of people in OZ that are willing to part with up up to 15K to geta green of all ages. Honestly looking after them is not Rocket Sience, just a little bit of extra care and attention


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## Retic (Nov 6, 2007)

I agree 100%.


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## Colhunter (Nov 6, 2007)

*GTP's*

Me and my partner are actually considering getting a pair next year.It is a big investment and we are also worried about keeping them due to prolapse etc.But you never know, it is alot of money to gamble with though but if you get a good pair of breeders then it would pay off.


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## krusty (Nov 6, 2007)

i say go for it,as if i had the money i would.........


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## pugsly (Nov 6, 2007)

There is a big misconception about them too..

IMO there no harder to look after than any other python. Just need to keep the temperature a pretty constant 28ish degrees, and keep the humidity up high. Spraying the enclosure every day or two as a hatchling. 

Dont overfeed, do not feed too large a food item, and thats about it. As for prolapse, there most inclined to do it in the first 6 months, once that period is over, there is little chance.

So, buy a good feeding 6 month old, rather than an unfeeding hatchling and good luck! There gorgeous animals.


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## FAY (Nov 6, 2007)

Buying a breeding pair of GTP's?
I would be suss about that...who in their right mind would be selling them, unless they are on their last scales (legs lol) or something???? 
OK you may come across the right pair that have a genuine reason for selling...but I wouldn't take the risk.


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## pugsly (Nov 6, 2007)

Paul Berridge sold his a couple of months ago Fay.

$35,000.00 was a bargain IMO. They bred the last 2 years, which means she should really have a year off this year, but no doubt the new owner will be trying to make their money back quickly. Much to the possible detriment of the snake..


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## Colin (Nov 6, 2007)

In theory it sounds good ' get a breeding pair of GTP's for say $30K (for example) Off who? 

For a start there would be less than a handful of people in this country that I would personally trust and pay that sort of money to for a pair of anything to be quite honest  

Consider this scenario. A breeder has say 10 breeding pairs of GTP's some obviously better pairs and producers than others. If he's going to sell a breeding pair, which pair do you think it''s going to be? His best pair? :lol: His 2nd. 3rd, 4th or 5th best pair? 

Absolutely not. It will usually be the 9th or 10th best pair thats for sure unless he's a really good friend.

If I was to spend a large amount of cash on GTP's I'd be looking to get some cracker yearlings holdbacks in guaranteed perfect health, guaranteed sexed pairs and would much prefer to get a few yearling pairs than one (possibly) dud breeding pair for the same money


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## AngusBeefisBest (Nov 6, 2007)

Every so often GTP's around the 2-3k mark pop up. Unfortunatly they are without paperwork. Fresh, keen eyed would be breeders snap then up onty to realise that the animal they just threw their money away, as without papers you'll never be legally breeding.

While GPT's are an exquisitly beautiful animal, the fact that you can make 100k + from 1 pair annually makes the attraction enormous. 

If I had the spare 30k to buy into the game I would without a second thought.


Beef.


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## Colin (Nov 6, 2007)

In NSW Green Tree Pythons are on the Class 2 advanced non venomous licence. 

Just wondering what licence restrictions (if any) they are in other states? VIC, QLD, SA etc


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## Retic (Nov 6, 2007)

Pugs, I'm not really sure how the story of them being hard to keep came about, they are 'harder' in so far as you need to keep the humidity level up when young and just give a little more thought when feeding. As other notable breeders have said they are no harder to keep and breed than any other carpet.
Colin, I agree I think a more sensible approach is to buy some young sexed animals and bring them on yourself, then you know exactly what you have.


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## ozianimals (Nov 6, 2007)

I have been told that they will not breed until the age of about 6 yrs old.....can anyone confirm this or let us know the correct info?


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## SnakeWrangler (Nov 6, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> I'm curious, are you interested in GTP's because you like the snake and want them or only to make $$$$$ out of them?
> 
> Simone.


I don't' understand why people complain about people who want to breeding snakes for money. We all have to make a living and if that can be done while doing something you love, who could ask for a better deal?

Of course there will always be people who try exploit things, but in this case it isn't exactly easy money. A fair bit of work goes into breeding any snakes so its not just something that anyone can just rock up and do, unlike dogs and cats and the like.


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## AngusBeefisBest (Nov 6, 2007)

Only people who claim to be in it "only for the love of reptiles" seem to complain about others profiting from their collections. They seem to forget that if it wasn't for breeders then they wouldn't have the animals they love so much...

I intend to recieve some form of income from reptiles in the near future, yes I love reptiles, yes I need to earn money, yes reptiles can earn me money.


People dont bitch and moan when car enthusiast make money from cars, or when dog breeders sell pups for a profit or artists and their pieces.

Why attempt to belittle those who want to make a living doing what they love and enjoy.



I know people who have built houses with the money thay have made breeding reps..........bloody good on em. I hope I can do the same too!


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## pugsly (Nov 6, 2007)

Yep agreed Boa.

Ozianimals. That is not true at all, males will go less than half that age. Its more weight/length that will determine it.

SnakeWrangler. 

Simone is a VERY experienced keeper, and what she meant in her message was unfortunately people see dollar signs in there eyes rather than the welbeing of the snake. Push it too hard to breed, over feed etc etc which would cause huge problems. 

Yes I agree to be able to breed these as a living would be a dream sure, but only when your in it for the right reasons, for the love of the animals, the joy of keeping and breeding and THEN to cover your costs and support your living costs if need be. Not the other way around.


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## Chimera (Nov 6, 2007)

SnakeWrangler said:


> I don't' understand why people complain about people who want to breeding snakes for money. We all have to make a living and if that can be done while doing something you love, who could ask for a better deal?
> 
> Of course there will always be people who try exploit things, but in this case it isn't exactly easy money. A fair bit of work goes into breeding any snakes so its not just something that anyone can just rock up and do, unlike dogs and cats and the like.



People reactive negatively to someone who does it exclusively for monetary benefit. If you enjoy keeping reptiles and make a bit (or a lot) of money on the side the well-being of the animal is generally the primary concern. If you do it exclusively for the money this could take a back seat to the almighty dollar.

There are exceptions to this rule, however if you are specifically going for a money making venture I think you should be brought to account every so often on how much consideration you give to the overall well-being of your animals. If you are taking this into account you will have a clear and proud response to any questions regarding this.


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## SnakeWrangler (Nov 6, 2007)

Pugsly, I was not trying to have a go at Simone specifically, I quoted her so everyone would know what I was going on about. I totally agree with all of you. The care of the animals is of primary concern and I don't think anyone should be allowed to profit from any animals unless those animals are kept in tip top shape.


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## pugsly (Nov 6, 2007)

"Why attempt to belittle those who want to make a living doing what they love and enjoy"

I don't see anyone doing this..

If people can do this, then good on them, its the ones who do it EXCLUSIVELY for the $, that are the concern. 
Yes you can make lots of money in breeding GTPs, but there are also a HEAP of variables with that.

There is, and will always be those who are in this hobby to make a quick buck, and dont give a hoots about the animals, which is what we should try and stamp out.


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## ozianimals (Nov 6, 2007)

Thanks pugs 

Still learning about GTP's myself. Don't have any but would like to someday....
You mention male going earlier than the 6 yr mark, what about the females what is a good time to start trying with them?????????


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## AngusBeefisBest (Nov 6, 2007)

Breeding EXCLUSIVLY for $$$ will result in unfit and cruel conditions and dead animals. Snakes aren't little money making factories. As you touched on before Pugsly, people seeing $ signs instead of living animals shouldn't be anywhere near them. There is no argument there.

Yes, there are a heap of variables breeding GPTS, or any animal but the same can be said for any business. At the end of the day It will either work or it won't. 


"Why attempt to belittle those who want to make a living doing what they love and enjoy"

No, there isn't any of this happening, yet.

There has been plenty of it happening in the past though.


Beef.


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## grimbeny (Nov 6, 2007)

Im sure their is some money to be made probably quite a bit, but i can see it as being a high risk enterprise. if you invest 40k expecting fast returns u would probably be kidding yourself. Although i think its great people making money in an industry that they love so dearly if only everyone could earn money this way life would be grand.


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## pugsly (Nov 6, 2007)

Fair enough Beef.

Oz. Females will also go much earlier than 6 year mark, not sure where you got that from..? Have a read of The More Complete Chondro. Excellent book, all the info you will ever need on Greens.


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## PilbaraPythons (Nov 6, 2007)

As long as people do not cross the cruelty boundaries who give a stuff about some body’s primary goal as being that of making money out of reptiles ? It is not much different than a sheep farmer and yet most sheep farmers do not hold a deep admiration for, or consider them as a favourite creature (except for Rob McCloud). 

We as the top of the food chain have always and traditionally exploited wildlife since the dawn of man kind. The main difference now is that many of us do indeed recognize the common sense in trying to keep it sustainable and furthermore have a conscience about most creatures’ welfare in captivity.


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## Retic (Nov 6, 2007)

I have absolutely no problem with people making money from breeding reptiles, the people that have no consideration for the animals welfare wouldn't last long in the marketplace, either their animals don't survive or they get a bad reputation. Either way they are taken out of the equation.


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## ozianimals (Nov 6, 2007)

on the making money issue, why would you buy a snake for 5000 and then sell hatchies for less than the value.
IMO.....All snake clutches will make money unless you keep them or give them away........


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## NickM (Nov 6, 2007)

Chondros are fairly simple to keep and are not difficult to breed. People tend to make things harder than they really are. The more expensive and enigmatic a snake is the greater the tendancy is to "over do it" Many keepers are so worried about them that they stress the animals by constantly messing with them.

I have 13 adults and have bred them. I keep them like any other python and ignore them most of the time, and they thrive, even WC adults.

I would also have to say the Maxwells book "the complete chondro" is really not well writtern and should not be looked at as a definitive work on the species. The book is only usefull for a refference on basic husbandry and not much else.

The book is full of Maxwells highly biased opinions and has very little if any scientific merrit.

Nick


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## pugsly (Nov 6, 2007)

I'll get the popcorn..


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## Lockie (Nov 6, 2007)

i'll get some coffee and a pillow, and call work to let them know I wont be in tomorrow...

want some coffee with your popcord pugsly? Its going to be a long thread....

ready... set... go!


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## fishead (Nov 6, 2007)

Hello Nick, I find your post a bit contradictive. Saying you ignore your gtps most of the time and then saying Maxwell's book is basic husbandry?? 
Can you enlighten us with some of your advanced husbandry techniques? Apart from the ignoring.


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## Retic (Nov 6, 2007)

I think Nick was getting at the fact you don't need to be treating them with kid gloves and watching their every mood. I interpreted 'ignoring' as just let them get on with it as you would other carpets, that does seem to back up what most keepers overseas say.


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## Twiggz (Nov 6, 2007)

One question, how old do they need to be before they can be accurately sexed? I'm of the understanding that they are sexed accurately after 12months. I'm also of the assumption that they are never to be probed, rather an ultra sound is the way to go? Can anyone clarify this for me please.....before my pop corn runs out and i have to run to the shops for more.


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## Retic (Nov 6, 2007)

They can be safely probed at 12 months. The reason they aren't probed earlier is the possibility of causing spinal damage. They have very thin delicate tails.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 6, 2007)

Hello Nick M 
mate your lucky you did not have to pay the big money for GTP like we have to here etc ???
i think you take it for granted how well established GTPs are overseas compared to here, 
your very lucky mate ,, 
yes , they are not hard to care for ,,, or breed if in the hands of a experianced herpetologists etc 
thats true ,,,

GTP will hold there value for quite some time here and i would breed them and make a few dollars from them, 
if i had a chance too ...
why not ,
if your husbandry skills are good enough to reward you with healthy GTP hatchlings to offer for sale, ??
i say go for it, 

it would be a pleasure to own and breed such beautifull pythons.


cheers Roger


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## Retic (Nov 6, 2007)

That's exactly it Roger, overseas where they have been kept and bred in large numbers for decades they are treated as they really should be treated just like any other snake. Because keepers here have to pay such large amounts for them it is assumed they must for whatever reason be delicate and hard to keep. 
In 10 years when every man and his dog is breeding them everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about


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## Renee (Nov 7, 2007)

"In 10 years when every man and his dog is breeding them everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about" 

I guess I'm not worried about that so much, as long as I make enough in the first few breeding seasons to justify owning one at all 

And to those who have criticized Simone on questioning my intentions, it was a fair question for her to ask, considering i may not have started this thread in the most tactful way!

"Is breeding GTP's profitable"

I would have been worried too 

So now all thats left for me to do is save up, research and find the right breeder. So everyone, be expecting some cute little baby chondros for sale within the next couple of years! And to all those who have given me your insight and advice, I'll do you a deal on a hatchie... wait... thats almost my whole first clutch....


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm working my way upto chondros. I plan on having atleast one within the next 3 years, but i refuse to spend my own money on any new reptile. What i mean by that is that i now only spend money that i have earnt through breeding reptiles on new animals. 

I think by doing this it kind of keeps you in check with ur intentions, i don;t feel that i need to pump babies out of my snakes to pay themselves off. They aren't an investment because in reality the money i have spent on them i didn't have to work for. So my advice would be to start small and work yourself upto the high end snakes that YOU like and don't listen to what others think of the animals you want to keep.

And don't buy an adult pair, if ur gonna spend that money buy three or four hatchies, by rule of averages you should have altleast on of each sex, and sell off the excess.


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## TrueBlue (Nov 7, 2007)

i agree, most people treat them speacial and with kid gloves, but in reality they are little more than a green carpet, ( except a whole lot more boring), and imo should be treated as such, and as said they will thrive.


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## deebo (Nov 7, 2007)

by saying they are boring you mean that they just sit there all day and dont move around much?


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## tan (Nov 7, 2007)

Don't listen to Rob, He compares them to gorilla snot :lol:


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## AngusBeefisBest (Nov 7, 2007)

No one was having a shot at Simone, well, I certainly wasn't. The thread was just left wide open to become another hot topic resulting in abuse and cutting down anyone with an opinion. It happens all to often here. 

Just look at any recent thread about carpets, intergrades, hybrids, albinos etc. They have resulted in stupid comments about using snakes as feed items, squashing eggs etc.

I was just waiting for that to happen with this thread. 

Beef


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## Renee (Nov 7, 2007)

I dont think that is what has happened with this thread at all. I started it to ask for advice on whether or not it was worth breeding them. And like I have already stated, I just wanted to breed for a few seasons to cover the costs of actually owning one!

I personally cant affort to fork out several grand on one of these beauties, but would love to be able to eventually.

And I'm not sure why you anticipate people will be making any stupid comments about destroying eggs or feeding pythons to other pythons etc, but I think now you have just opened the door!


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## Renee (Nov 7, 2007)

Hahahahahaha


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## Renee (Nov 7, 2007)

Hold on I take all of that back AngusBeefisBest


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

There is not a person on this site that is not happy to breed , sell and make the resulting money on the hatchies that they sell. If anyone says any different their a lying through their teeth. Lets face it how many buisnesses have started as a hobby and evolved. It dosn't mean you love it any less. If anything you love it and care for it more. Thats what happened to me..


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## AngusBeefisBest (Nov 7, 2007)

Baghdady said:


> There is not a person on this site that is not happy to breed , sell and make the resulting money on the hatchies that they sell. If anyone says any different their a lying through their teeth. Lets face it how many buisnesses have started as a hobby and evolved. It dosn't mean you love it any less. If anything you love it and care for it more. Thats what happened to me..


 

Boom Boom.


Can't be said any better.


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

Isnt breeding an animal the final result and culmination of the hard work and joy you all get out of having reptiles. Isnt it a indication that you have a happy and well adjusted animal that is content. Isnt it the personal satisfaction that you are doing things RIGHT !!!


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## Renee (Nov 7, 2007)

ABSOLUTELY Badhdady.

And that is what I want to achieve. The only thing that worries me are the people who I would sell my animals to. You never know whether or not they have the same philosophy as us. And I fear that more often than not, they dont.


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## sezza (Nov 7, 2007)

I would love to be able to breed these amazing creatures and sell them at like half the price of what they are today so that more people could afford these guys and the population would increase! But thats just me in my little pretend perfect world!! The thing is I would have to be able to afford them first!! hmph


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

Baghdady said:


> Isnt breeding an animal the final result and culmination of the hard work and joy you all get out of having reptiles. Isnt it a indication that you have a happy and well adjusted animal that is content. Isnt it the personal satisfaction that you are doing things RIGHT !!!



Not everyone shares ur enthusiasm and philosophy.There are alot of people in this game for the wrong reasons, everynow and then i find myself considereing buying certain animals with only the $$$ that i might make on my mind. I have always snapped out of it so far. Beleive me there are people who are keeping reptiles soley for the money, not for the love even on this site.


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

Renee said:


> ABSOLUTELY Badhdady.
> 
> And that is what I want to achieve. The only thing that worries me are the people who I would sell my animals to. You never know whether or not they have the same philosophy as us. And I fear that more often than not, they dont.


 
My experience is if the keeper has the funds to part with he generally has the samephilosophy and dedication as I have. People do not generally by chrondo's unless they love the species and want to tak on the challange of breeding if not just to prove to themselfs and get that gratification of success you get when you see those eggs. most people can relate to the excitement of it !


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## Renee (Nov 7, 2007)

Unless they are filthy rich and want a vivarium display in their mansion with an exotic-looking reptile in it, and dont give two hoots about it other than how pretty it looks...


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Not everyone shares ur enthusiasm and philosophy.There are alot of people in this game for the wrong reasons, everynow and then i find myself considereing buying certain animals with only the $$$ that i might make on my mind. I have always snapped out of it so far. Beleive me there are people who are keeping reptiles soley for the money, not for the love even on this site.


 
Every body has to make a living and selliing reptiles are no different. Proffesional breeders are the reason we have a lot of certian info on breeding with the info they have documented. Wether they make money is their good luck and probebly sour eggs from those that wish they were doing it for a living. It is a bit judgemental to say that they do not really love doing it just because they make a living out of it..


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

Baghdady said:


> My experience is if the keeper has the funds to part with he generally has the samephilosophy and dedication as I have. People do not generally by chrondo's unless they love the species and want to tak on the challange of breeding if not just to prove to themselfs and get that gratification of success you get when you see those eggs. most people can relate to the excitement of it !



Well i'm not just talking about chondros, i agree with you high end reptile owners usually seem to have good intentions. I'm talking about those breeders that pump out 100's of carpets, childrens etc give them one or two feeds and push them out into wholesalers, petshops etc. It happens alot more often than most of us like to think.


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Well i'm not just talking about chondros, i agree with you high end reptile owners usually seem to have good intentions. I'm talking about those breeders that pump out 100's of carpets, childrens etc give them one or two feeds and push them out into wholesalers, petshops etc. It happens alot more often than most of us like to think.


 

Im sure this does to an extent , but I doubt that these people do not love reptiles. I do not believe that people would start breeding them at all if they didn't . You have to to get in to them in the first place . I hate cats , so im not going to start breeding them and selling kittens..


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

Baghdady said:


> Every body has to make a living and selliing reptiles are no different. Proffesional breeders are the reason we have a lot of certian info on breeding with the info they have documented. Wether they make money is their good luck and probebly sour eggs from those that wish they were doing it for a living. It is a bit judgemental to say that they do not really love doing it just because they make a living out of it..



It is a bit bold of you saying that i have sour grapes about those people who make a living off reptiles. I'm not saying that people shouldn't make money off reptiles, i breed the snakes that i have and sell them. That is how i fund my hobby. I think that getting into reptiles for the money is the wrong reason and nearly always does not end up working out for the keeper. 

I have not said or implied that any full time breeders don't love their animals just because they are making a living out of it. Like i said, IMO $money$ is the wrong reason for getting into reptiles.


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## AngusBeefisBest (Nov 7, 2007)

The morality arguments begin:lol:


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## NickM (Nov 7, 2007)

By "ignore" I mean treat them like a green carpet, Just dont handle them much. One other difference is that they should not be fed as much as you feed a carpet, most GTPs obese and they can have reproductive problems as a result, there is also a danger of rectal prolaps if they are over fed, particularily in neonates.

They are a bit boring in that they are not the most active snakes.

What does everyone here think of the fact that most of the chondros fore sale in Australia are obviously Indo animals or mixed Blood animals and not true Australian specimens?

Nick


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

NickM said:


> By "ignore" I mean treat them like a green carpet, Just dont handle them much. One other difference is that they should not be fed as much as you feed a carpet, most GTPs obese and they can have reproductive problems as a result, there is also a danger of rectal prolaps if they are over fed, particularily in neonates.
> 
> They are a bit boring in that they are not the most active snakes.
> 
> ...



I recon we feel about the same as you guys feel about carpets in the US. I think you would prolly be the only person who can say they have pure animals, all other carpets seem to be hybrids of some %.


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 7, 2007)

Nick

Too true ... lol


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## BIG RYANO (Nov 7, 2007)

NickM said:


> What does everyone here think of the fact that most of the chondros fore sale in Australia are obviously Indo animals or mixed Blood animals and not true Australian specimens?
> 
> Nick


Why would you buy a Indo green when you can buy an Aussie one? The Aussie ones look heaps better ( I'm talking about the wild coloured version). I see the Aussie ones for sale in the latest mag. I'd rather pay twice as much for them.


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## Retic (Nov 7, 2007)

I guess mostly we have little choice as to what we buy, the overwhelming majority of GTP's available are Indonesian. The exotic GTP's do give us most of the beautiful morphs so it's fine with me.


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## BIG RYANO (Nov 7, 2007)

Dont get me wrong, their all good. And i certainly wouldnt knock back a cheap Indo GTP, but, if i was was going to fork out the big dollars for some, i'd be trying my hardest to get the Aussie ones.


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## Jungle_Freak (Nov 7, 2007)

Beggars cant be choosers ,??

the mixed locality GTPs and there morphs are incredible , love them,

but the new pure ozzie line GTP are great news for the purests , love them too ,,,


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

Prolem is finding someone with verifiable iron ranges gtp's. From what i have seen the price diff between iron ranges and indo gtp's is about 2k.


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## Retic (Nov 7, 2007)

Indo GTP's go for around $5000 and a similar established Aussie GTP about $10,000.


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## Renee (Nov 7, 2007)

Which brings my next question... (and another bag of popcorn for some), which locality should I be looking for? Is it better, to buy an Australian GTP breeding pair, or an indonesian pair? What is available in Aus, and is it legal to buy and sell Indonesian GTP's? 

And I'm not even going to ask about buying one of each


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## scorps (Nov 7, 2007)

idk about the legaly thing but if you can afford go the aussies if ont get the indos


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## waruikazi (Nov 7, 2007)

Same species so it is technically legal as long as they were here before the amnesty i think. I would personally go for the Iron Ranges gtp's cause i like the look of them better. But some of the mite phase, canaries etc look pretty damn hot too.


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

NickM said:


> By "ignore" I mean treat them like a green carpet, Just dont handle them much. One other difference is that they should not be fed as much as you feed a carpet, most GTPs obese and they can have reproductive problems as a result, there is also a danger of rectal prolaps if they are over fed, particularily in neonates.
> 
> They are a bit boring in that they are not the most active snakes.
> 
> ...


 
Some time ago OZ was conected to our island neighbours in the north of this planet, so what is local and what is not, the reality is that they are all GTPs and it is a matter of personal choice. I personally have red and green and and high yellow on green, they are all just as spectacular as each other. IMO they are all GTPs originally from a country that just happened to split up a bit some time ago..


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## Ricko (Nov 7, 2007)

Hey Baghdady any chance of some pics? and a pic of that scrubby in your avatar looks like it has some size to it.


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

No prob will post some in a few days or so :lol:


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## Retic (Nov 7, 2007)

A breeding pair of Australian GTP's would buy you a house in Tasmania if you could actually find any. 
Many of the GTP's from localities outside of Oz can be reliably identified up to a point.
Legally all GTP's are the same as far as the authorities are concerned, it's a can of worms they have no interest in opening. 



Renee said:


> Which brings my next question... (and another bag of popcorn for some), which locality should I be looking for? Is it better, to buy an Australian GTP breeding pair, or an indonesian pair? What is available in Aus, and is it legal to buy and sell Indonesian GTP's?
> 
> And I'm not even going to ask about buying one of each


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## AngusBeefisBest (Nov 7, 2007)

boa said:


> A breeding pair of Australian GTP's would buy you a house in Tasmania if you could actually find any.
> Many of the GTP's from localities outside of Oz can be reliably identified up to a point.
> Legally all GTP's are the same as far as the authorities are concerned, it's a can of worms they have no interest in opening.


 

Tassie realestate is pretty cheap.

Geeveston, 3 bd, large block 60k.

I almost bought til I realised there is no work and I can't have my pythons there:shock:


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## Retic (Nov 7, 2007)

Well there you go, that house plus the neighbours place


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## Baghdady (Nov 7, 2007)

AngusBeefisBest said:


> Tassie realestate is pretty cheap.
> 
> Geeveston, 3 bd, large block 60k.
> 
> I almost bought til I realised there is no work and I can't have my pythons there:shock:


 
You said it . There is a reason why it is seperated by Bass Straight. Hence the reason why its cheap. Id rather have a breeding pair than 2 houses there


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## NickM (Nov 7, 2007)

Baghdady,

there is a huge flaw in your logic with regards to GTPs: They are in reality more than a single species.

While they are currently lumped together in a single taxon that will not always be the case. What you consider to all be the same animals will likely be at least 4 seperate taxons in the not too distant future.

There have been three different DNA studies done and a fourth is currenlty under way, all show the same results, that there is sufficient sequence divergance among the various populations to warrent it.

For example there are huge differences between Biak animals and any other form, both genetically and morpholgically.

I do have the luxury of being able to maintain different locality specimens, and when you do the differences are quite apparent.

Reality is that at some point all the mixed blood animals will be intergrades/hybrids.

Its disgusting how bad it is over here, virtually every breeder mixes them and we actually can get locality specimens. So even though we can legallyh get imports we in effect have no reliable captive gene pool for most of these different forms.

Its so bad over here, that I will not buy a captive bred GTP from any US breeder, I will only work with imports and WC animals.

Nick


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## Colhunter (Nov 10, 2007)

*Go The Thread*

I/We are only new to this site but gee this thread is going off.

I have learnt alot just from this one thread.I must say I agree with points off what nearly everyone has said.In my opinion if people are breeding these beauties because they love them and the demand is there then they reap their rewards and good on them for their efforts.Also if breeders are just trying to ''pump them out the door'' then I would like to think that genuine buyers would pick up on this and would most likely not want to part with their money when they could wait and get a better GTP off a breeder who cares.I know that I would rather get a python off a breeder who I thought actually cared especially with the money involved.

I know that after reading all this, when we are going to buy our GTP's we will be cautious who we are getting them from.Unlike some we don't want to get adults as we would prefer to raise our own and get the satisfaction from eventually getting them to breed.

I was wondering if there is anyone out there who would like to tell us all if they ever heard of someone getting a GTP, only to get it home and find out that the poor thing was in a bad way or even worse have it die.I believe anyone should be able to keep and breed but only if the animals wellbeing is the first priority.

Sorry I took up so much space but could talk about this all day
Adam

I forgot to say that anyone can feel free to pm us about GTP's or anything else


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## waruikazi (Nov 10, 2007)

I know a fella who bought established hatchies from a very well known breeder and one of them stopped feeding and died.


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## reptilefever (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm not sure but I think the GTP has been taken off the restricted list in QLD? I'll have to ring EPA to make sure though, I was told by a breeder as they are becoming more common then once were.


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## salebrosus (Nov 10, 2007)

No, still on restricted. As of July it was

Simone.


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## reptilefever (Nov 10, 2007)

I would have to say that any breeder trying to sell unfeeding hatchlings would be having trouble feeding them himself. As a breeder myself (I havent bred GTP) although trying at times, it is a joy to see the little ones eating. I feel all they are doing is selling a great snake for to little, and giving his/her problem to the buyer. in which case the extra stress of moving the hatchlings causes them to die not long after. I'm sure if people pay the right amount for them they will also pay that little extra care for them. There are exceptions to everything. I Have just become one of the lucky few who have purchased a yearling pair of GTP's, they are beautiful animals, By paying that little bit extra I know what sex they are and also know what adult colouring they have. Being Patient is a big key to having GTP.


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## chip (Dec 2, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> i agree, most people treat them speacial and with kid gloves, but in reality they are little more than a green carpet, ( except a whole lot more boring), and imo should be treated as such, and as said they will thrive.


 

If they are just green carpet, then why have you not bred any as yet?

You seem to do ok in regards to breeding other species of Morelia.

You often advertise other Carpets that you have bred, such as Bredli, Coastals and the odd Jungle. 

Does this mean that Green Tree Python's need some other '' special'' care to successfully breed?

I am curious to find out your thoughts as to the problems involved in breeding Green Tree Python's.

Regards,

Chip


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 2, 2007)

Rob doesn't have his green pythons in his possession any more and hasn't had for quite some time. They are not even in the state of QLD. With the exception of one young adult he only ever had young green pythons that in my opinion will do the job this coming season.

Cheers Dave


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## TrueBlue (Dec 4, 2007)

they bred a couple of years back, but because of their boring nature i lost interest in them and sent them to a friend in nsw to add to a breeding colony. Why bother keeping something that your not interested in.??
Quite alot of what i breed dosnt get advertised as it sells by word of mouth from year to year.


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## deebo (Dec 4, 2007)

trueblue - why was it that you were not interested in them? any specific reason, or they just simpy didnt do it for you?
Dave

-nevermind - because of their boring nature.....


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## TrueBlue (Dec 4, 2007)

the most boring snake ive ever kept, they remind me alot of gorilla snot.


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## chip (Dec 4, 2007)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Rob doesn't have his green pythons in his possession any more and hasn't had for quite some time. They are not even in the state of QLD. With the exception of one young adult he only ever had young green pythons that in my opinion will do the job this coming season.
> 
> Cheers Dave


 


TrueBlue said:


> they bred a couple of years back, but because of their boring nature i lost interest in them and sent them to a friend in nsw to add to a breeding colony. Why bother keeping something that your not interested in.??
> Quite alot of what i breed dosnt get advertised as it sells by word of mouth from year to year.


 
Thanks for the reply TrueBlue and Pilbara Pythons,

Perhaps one of you could clear things up a little as I am now confused?

I was under the impression that both of you are good friends and are involved in the partnership which formed TrueBlue reptiles?

If this is the case , one could only imagine that a successful breeding of Green Python's would be a worthy discussion topic, and that the pair of you would of discussed it at least once in the time since they bred '' a couple of years back''?

Perhaps you could post a pic or two or the Tree Pythons hatching as every person on this forum would love to see pics as it is something that most of us do not get to see.

Regards,

Chip.


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## serenaphoenix (Dec 4, 2007)

put it into shares or buy a house... 

waste of money...


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## TrueBlue (Dec 5, 2007)

i posted a pick of one of the females gravid a while back. do a shearch.
my computer crashed a few months back and ive lost all my pics of snakes from the last few years.
mongrel computers, bring on the old days when they wernt around.

as said, i dont advertise everything i breed, dont need to.


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## chip (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks for the reply TrueBlue,

I know the picture that you are talking about, it's a nice Green Python. What I was after was a few pics of the fertile eggs and the raised hatchings.

Why did David not know of the hatchlings or did it slip his mind?

Regards,

Chip


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 9, 2007)

Chip 
First of all, I did not see any of Rob’s hatchlings, but was only told at the time that he had some and that they were all spoken for. Secondly I did not jointly breed the GTPs with him as a partnership and basically they had nothing to do with me at all. I personally did jointly breed my own GTPs with somebody else and I suppose like Rob had no real desire to advertise or show off these reptiles for security reasons either. 

Cheers Dave


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## JungleRob (Dec 9, 2007)

If you've read The More Complete Chondro you'll know that expecting to make money by buying and breeding one pair of GTPs is not a likely aspect. Good Luck though.


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## NickM (Dec 10, 2007)

" the more complete chondro" is a VERY poorly written book , it is full of very subjective and biased opinions , many of wich are completely inaccurate. Its obvious from reading the book and looking at the pictures that does not really understand th needs of this species. 

Maxwell has an agenda with that book and the agenda unfortunately taints the whole thing and makes it of little real value. 

As a general rule with any herps, if you produce offspring you will make money and GTPs are no exeption. Even over here when breeders have to compete with cheap imports its still very profitable to breed them.

Nick


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