# Something to think about on pricing



## graffix (Dec 31, 2011)

Let me just start off by making it very clear I am in no way saying people should get into reptiles, or any other animal for that matter, just to make money. Passion and a sound knowledge base are critical to maintaining quality animals.

Now for my biggest pet peeve ................ Those that try to make a quick buck of their excess animals.

A scenario that is played over time and time again is where a hobbyist has produced some offspring, has a look online ans sees they are selling for (let's just say) $100 ea so a brainstorm says "I will sell mine for $80 ea and sell them all, quickly". 

Sure, this strategy works. Who doesn't want a bargain right ?

The problem is that person has just set the new "price" for that animal because those selling theirs for $100 can't sell theirs so they often have to match the price to move their offspring. Then the revolving door comes around again and the scenario is repeated. Withing just a few short years the price has dropped from $100 ea to $50 ea, then $40 ea, then 4 for $100 etc etc to the point where it costs more to produce these animals than you get in return.

As I stated right at the beginning this industry shouldn't be about the money and I stand by that, but I have seen this scenario played out in other areas of the pet trade where animals simply disappear from the pet trade because they are rendered "worthless".

I don't give a rats backside that those that just tried to line their own pockets quickly now have animals they have trouble selling, but they screw those that are truly passionate about what they do and have their animals welfare foremost in their mind.

The "impulse" buy is where we will run into problems. There will be animals purchased at a minimal cost and house inadequately. people will stumble at spending a couple hundred dollars on a set up for a critter that only cost $20.

There will always be those that have situations arise that call for urgent sales, that's unavoidable and creates a genuine bargain. 

All I ask is that people take a look at the bigger picture. You cannot control what happens to your animals once you have sold them on, while the vast majority of new owners are commendable it only takes a few to hurt a thriving and quality industry.

Roast away if you like, but let's stick with facts.


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## Khagan (Dec 31, 2011)

Quality animals will always sell regardless of how many cheaper ones are around. If faced with the choice i'd rather pay the little extra from some reputable, than some cheapy from joe blogs.


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## mad_at_arms (Dec 31, 2011)

Good breeders prices will remain firm because of a few things.

reputation
ongoing advice
quality specimens
My last gecko I bought was not advertised, I enquired as to if they had any available.
I didn't ask price until we were filling out paperwork.


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## JAS101 (Dec 31, 2011)

not everyone who sells reptiles at a " cheaper price " is in it for the money .


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## Chris1 (Dec 31, 2011)

i think that teh super cheap bargain animals are often from unplanned pairings of not particularly hot animals and the seller knows they have no chance of getting a great price. 

and buyers that have done their research know this and still look for the better animals and pay the higher price,..i know i do,....(and i wouldnt pair up any of my average animals either)

maybe its a good thing really, this is the first year since i joined APS where i havent seen thousands or average animals flooding the market, probably cos joe with all the average animals realised last year he isnt gonna make the quick buck he had in previous years.

it seems people are aiming for quality over quantity this year,...


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## snakelady96 (Dec 31, 2011)

I believe that people who truly have a great passion for keeping/breeding reptiles will pay more for the quality. For example when im browsing a forum like rdu and i am after a particular reptile like say a black headed python, if i see one that the title comes across pretty standard priced between $400-$600 i'd think that be pretty reasonable standard healthy reptile. But then if i saw one the same sort of title and description but priced from $100-$300 thereabouts id think- well is the person just selling for a quick sale or is there something wrong the snake? You just dont know, they can say whatever they want to on the phone which is why i personally prefer to pay extra from a breeder/keeper that i can ask around about and have good comments than someone who is selling cheap and no-one knows a thing about them. I think that when anyone sells another reptile it must be eating ok, shedding ok, and fairly good size for its age. It's quite understandable that some reptiles will be a bugger to feed or might be a bit overweight or underweight but these things need to be said to the buyer before they give the final ok i will buy the reptile.


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## JAS101 (Dec 31, 2011)

the other thing is just because one person thinks a animal is avarage looking , duznt mean another person will too .


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## Wrightpython (Dec 31, 2011)

so if i give my animals away does that mean the people who get them( who would otherwise not be able to afford them)will not have the means to house and look after them properly or does it mean they will have more money to spend on their wellbeing after the transaction. You only have to watch the news and see the puppy farms to see what money does to the pet trade. i was at the first meetings in NSW when the ahs were discussing licencing and the biggest thing npw didnt want was a price on each animals head which is why petshops are not allowed to sell reptiles. what is the difference between petshops selling an animal to joe blow for $100.00 or a breeder selling 1000 snakes a year for $100 each to 1000 joe blows, they dont often care who they sell to as long as they have a licence, which is to easy to get. what is to stop a breeder using non licenced animals to breed and then selling on the offspring. i know of one breeder who has 2 pairs of bhp on licence but last year sold 65 hatchlings. must just be good breeders i guess. when money is involved people often just get greedy, i thought we were in the hobby for the love of reptiles, frogs turtles etc not to make a dollar. If as stated it is often more expensive to breed them than what you get for the offspring the answer is simple dont breed them


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## -Katana- (Dec 31, 2011)

Just like breeding any animal there will be standout individuals and there will be those that are referred to as "pets".
The pet quality/average animals will always a cheaper price because it's better to accept a cheaper price for the animal and get it settled with new owners - who would no doubt give it more attention - than it is for the animal to still be at the breeders a year or more on.
Average, cheaper animals play their part in the hobby by being entry level pets for the new keeper and they're good ambassadors for herping by breaking down the barriers of fear that the public have for snakes in general.
That role should never be looked down upon.


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## graffix (Dec 31, 2011)

Wrightpython said:


> when money is involved people often just get greedy, i thought we were in the hobby for the love of reptiles, frogs turtles etc not to make a dollar. If as stated it is often more expensive to breed them than what you get for the offspring the answer is simple dont breed them



My point exactly ! When they don't get bred the animals slowly vanish from the hobby.

I guess I didn't make my point very clear. All I was trying to get people to think about was the sustainability of the ANIMALS, not the dollar trade. I have seen this happen time and time again in other areas of the pet trade and it frustrates the hell out of me. The bird side of the pet trade is a prime example. Many species you just can't find because they became to common and invaluable so people stopped breeding and keeping them. THIS IS MY POINT. it all came back to the value of these animals. I have been in the pet trade in various forms for over 20 years and it is alarming to see how often this happens.

On that note, I don't breed any herps at all now, keep them yes, but not breeding any more. So obviously it is not about money for me. I have also given many young to new enthusiasts with as much of a set up as I can and still keep in contact with advice with the owners.

I am preaching to the converted obviously as all posts (IMO) are exactly the way it should be. 

I'm not saying every reptile, amphibian will vanish at all, but some may be at risk in a few years.


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## wokka (Dec 31, 2011)

There are various markets out there. Some breeders chase the cheapest market and have a stategy of discounting until the animals sell whilst others dont want to service that section of the market because there is more likely to be problems if the new owners decisions are only price driven. Like others have said before ther is more to pricing an animal than what it looks like.On going service after the transaction incurrs a cost to the provider. To me reputation is very important and i prefer to deal with breeders who put something back into the hobby by supporting all sectors of the hobby like societies, shows, forums and magazines.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 31, 2011)

"The problem is that person has just set the new "price" for that animal because those selling theirs for $100 can't sell theirs so they often have to match the price to move their offspring. Then the revolving door comes around again and the scenario is repeated. Withing just a few short years the price has dropped from $100 ea to $50 ea, then $40 ea, then 4 for $100 etc etc to the point where it costs more to produce these animals than you get in return.

As I stated right at the beginning this industry shouldn't be about the money and I stand by that, but I have seen this scenario played out in other areas of the pet trade where animals simply disappear from the pet trade because they are rendered "worthless".


This statement would suggest that money is the driving force for breeding reptiles and contradicts what you are trying to say.
If an animal is lost to the market due to low pricing and % of return on stock sold, then passion had already been lost to profit.


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## Wrightpython (Dec 31, 2011)

As i have stated before i have never sold a snake or bought one for myself and i am hoping i never will. i have given away more than i can count and released hundereds of death adders, rbb, pale heads, highland copperheads and tigers all captive bred from wild parents. i was one of the first 10 members of Hawk herp Society way back 15 years or so ago when it all started. Back then when there was no licencing members would swap animals or give them away and there was always keen interest in many species. If people are going to breed designer snakes and put many years into there breeding programs then i guess its fine for them to recoup some money but if people are only breeding for the money then its wrong. Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells, have you ever heard of commercial breeders taking there snakes out for a slither on the lawn, it would be to time consuming, if you want to purchase a new snake great but i would urge to buy of another hobbyist as apposed to some one who breeds just for the money.

when i said the answer is simple dont breed them if it is to expensive and you dont get money back what cost is there in breeding them. if you keep an animal lets say Death Adders and you enjoy keeping Death Adders then breeding is not your priority and only an added extra to your enjoyment so it has not cost you anything. if a certain breed is no longer commercially viable does not mean it will disappear into history books it just means that only those people who show a genuine interest in that breed will be keeping them and they will inevitably breed them and then there would be enough animals for other genuinly interested people. Swings and Roundabouts. Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets


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## Wally (Dec 31, 2011)

This topic raises it's head at this time nearly every year. Don't concern yourself with what others are doing.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 31, 2011)

Wrightpython said:


> As i have stated before i have never sold a snake or bought one for myself and i am hoping i never will. i have given away more than i can count and released hundereds of death adders, rbb, pale heads, highland copperheads and tigers all captive bred from wild parents. i was one of the first 10 members of Hawk herp Society way back 15 years or so ago when it all started. Back then when there was no licencing members would swap animals or give them away and there was always keen interest in many species. If people are going to breed designer snakes and put many years into there breeding programs then i guess its fine for them to recoup some money but if people are only breeding for the money then its wrong. Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells, have you ever heard of commercial breeders taking there snakes out for a slither on the lawn, it would be to time consuming, if you want to purchase a new snake great but i would urge to buy of another hobbyist as apposed to some one who breeds just for the money.
> 
> when i said the answer is simple dont breed them if it is to expensive and you dont get money back what cost is there in breeding them. if you keep an animal lets say Death Adders and you enjoy keeping Death Adders then breeding is not your priority and only an added extra to your enjoyment so it has not cost you anything. if a certain breed is no longer commercially viable does not mean it will disappear into history books it just means that only those people who show a genuine interest in that breed will be keeping them and they will inevitably breed them and then there would be enough animals for other genuinly interested people. Swings and Roundabouts. Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets



Im very sorry to be rude, but its a bit difficult to believe all of this, when i just read your other thread.


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## Khagan (Dec 31, 2011)

Wrightpython said:


> Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets



Do you know what they are going through just to get them into captivity? Pretty sure the steps they are/have taken to establish the species in captivity isn't cheap at all, so anything they do make in the end would probably just cover that.


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## -Katana- (Dec 31, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> Im very sorry to be rude, but its a bit difficult to believe all of this, when i just read your other thread.



I've decided it's an attention seeking troll and I've put it on my ignore list.
Best not to feed 'em or give them attention.

Mods can we get an IP check on this character please?


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## waruikazi (Dec 31, 2011)

Wrightpython said:


> As i have stated before i have never sold a snake or bought one for myself and i am hoping i never will. i have given away more than i can count and released hundereds of death adders, rbb, pale heads, highland copperheads and tigers all captive bred from wild parents. i was one of the first 10 members of Hawk herp Society way back 15 years or so ago when it all started. Back then when there was no licencing members would swap animals or give them away and there was always keen interest in many species. If people are going to breed designer snakes and put many years into there breeding programs then i guess its fine for them to recoup some money but if people are only breeding for the money then its wrong. Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells, have you ever heard of commercial breeders taking there snakes out for a slither on the lawn, it would be to time consuming, if you want to purchase a new snake great but i would urge to buy of another hobbyist as apposed to some one who breeds just for the money.
> 
> when i said the answer is simple dont breed them if it is to expensive and you dont get money back what cost is there in breeding them. if you keep an animal lets say Death Adders and you enjoy keeping Death Adders then breeding is not your priority and only an added extra to your enjoyment so it has not cost you anything. if a certain breed is no longer commercially viable does not mean it will disappear into history books it just means that only those people who show a genuine interest in that breed will be keeping them and they will inevitably breed them and then there would be enough animals for other genuinly interested people. Swings and Roundabouts. Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets



I'm keen to hear about your releases if you don't mind expanding on it. Even if you start another thread i'm interested to know what, how and why you were doing it. 

As far as Gavin Bedford's recent project is concerned. I know you were asking questions not making statements but i know there are some people out there who do think that Gavin is all about the money or accalades for the project. Anyone who thinks he's about the money really don't have a good understanding of hard a project like this is. If we just think about the travel cost for each trip, there's thousands of $$ in chopper rides in and out of the escarpment, then there's the time etc etc. I doubt that he will ever make his money back on what he has already spent on the project. Then we need to remember that he has already made his living out of reptiles, he is a full time herpetologist, that is his job he doesn't need the extra money that we imagine he is going to make. 

He already has the honour of bringing atleast two new species into the pet trade (glauerts and gleobos) and had a hand in on both the albino carpets and albino olives AND the pygmy crocs. Not to mention his display of his own personal collection at croc cove. So he doesn't need anymore projects to stroke his ego.

As for the species well being, i am sure it is a major factor in this project. The likes of Greg Miles will make sure of it, Greg's conservation keeping movement will most likely be very involved. 

But i think Gavin's biggest reason for this project, aside from his obvious passion for reptiles and biodiversity, is that it will benefit the local indigenous people in the West Arnhem region. 

Now back on topic lol. 2011 was the first year that i have not seen people entering the hobby with a pair of snakes. If you see the over supply or drop in price as a problem i think the hobby only has itself to blame. How many years have we been seeing breeders advertising hatchlings as pairs only or discounts for 2 or more? If you see this as a problem it is of our own making, the culture that we fostered in our hobby was that of the only way you become and experienced keeper is if you breed your reptiles. Which is a load of crap. 

It makes me feel great to see so many young guns joining this forum where there main passion is feild herping. Some of them don't even have their own collection yet but they can name nearly every species they find in their area and tell you when and where to find them and if they can't find them they keep on looking until they do. That is passion, none of this 'i'm breeding better snakes than you' they are finding better snakes than us. They are the real deal, it's only love there!


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## Luvbuz (Dec 31, 2011)

graffix makes a valid and reasonable point. Before I got into reptiles I was (and still am) heavily involved in the breeding, showing and training of dogs. Irresponsible backyard breeders jump onto a particular breeds popularity and sell a little cheaper than reputable and registered breeders. The breed popularity shoots through the roof, becomes over-saturated, the price drops and the breed slowly dwindles. Case in point - border collies rocketed skywards after Babe and Footrot Flats, now they are back to sensible levels again, currently staffies are the breed of choice but already the price is dropping and the quality is waaaaaay off. Same with snakes and other reptiles. Personally, I located a local down-to-earth, reputable and honest breeder and mostly refuse to look at snakes apart from those he has either bought in himself or bred. I will ALWAYS pay a bigger price for a better animal, and have the patience to wait until the right one comes along. Many decisions are made by the heart and not the head - we've all done it in the past, but wisdom comes with age and I'm almost officially an old bastard now, so can speak from many decades experience. Enclosures don't need to cost a fortune either. I go to the local Lifeline of Vinnies furniture outlets and buy old TV and entertainment units for like $40, chuck them in the ute, disinfect them, add ventilation, new stronger backboards, paint or stain them if they need it and put locks on the doors and I have a really nice furniture quality display for under $100. Luckily I live in the tropics and have no need for heating coils, lighting etc - so the costs I save in enclosures I put to the new additions to my collections. Now I need to save for a bigger house to put all my snake houses in! Cheers, and never forget the real reason we all got into this game in the first place - enjoyment!!!!


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## hrafna (Dec 31, 2011)

for me personally, i have no issue with spending 250 for a md rather than 80 because i know the breeder has quality animals and the after care is tops. i really don't pay attention to the el cheapo animals. only time i have is when snake ranch offered 4 or so "butt ugly" jungles for 50 each.


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## graffix (Dec 31, 2011)

This was not intended to be a profit/loss thread. Making a profit should be entirely irrelevant. It is about the sustainability of ALL species within the hobby.

People that breed anything (intentionally) have motives behind doing so. Some people do it for great reasons, like furthering the development of a species, producing sustainable numbers etc. We have to admit there are some that also only breed their animals because there is a potential financial reward at the end. Again, not the intention of this thread to cause debate.

The whole and only point of this thread was to get people to think about the long term effects of price spiraling.

The herp hobby is in its relative infancy and does not need to follow in the footsteps of other fields in the pet trade. it is going to happen anyway as any person with a pair of anything can breed and sell whatever they wish to. I am in no way dismissing the fact there are some brilliant minds within this hobby with a wealth of experience and animals to die for.


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## Wrightpython (Dec 31, 2011)

exotic doc whats hard to believe that people arent out there to make money or there is other people that use to breed as a bi product of keeping animals and chose to release young or give them away.
in my records in 1999 i released 45 antarticus in faulconbridge, 18 rbb in upper colo, 7 pale heads in baradine nsw and 9 tigers in taralga near goulburn all of these areas were chosen because it is where the parents were originally poached. i continued this with varying numbers up until 2004 when i had children and all my venomous were handed on to other hobbyists and as i didnt feel they could be released successfully after so long in captivity. None of the snakes i bred were deliberate breeding more nature taking control and all of the young from those were released or given away. None were sold and if you like i can show records of such.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 31, 2011)

Im not arguing with you, what i find hard to believe is all the crap your talking yourself up to be....


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

graffix said:


> The whole and only point of this thread was to get people to think about the long term effects of price spiraling.



Some species are easier to breed and rear up than others but it seems all species are dropping in prices, although I think the spiraling slowed down compared to previous 3 years. 

"what people think about the long term effects of price spiraling"? Nothing! They don't think. If they did, they would see that in 3 years time their reptiles will be worth nothing. What a goal to work towards to.??? If reptiles were worth nothing, would Gavin be chasing Oenpellis and would John Weigel spend tens of thousands on getting RSP into captivity? I think not. Take the $$$ from the hobby and the hobby will be $$$ poorer - not necessarily in terms of money.


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## Chris1 (Dec 31, 2011)

Wrightpython said:


> Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells.




sadly the collector mentality with alot of reptile keepers means even hobbyists try and fit as many specimens in as small a space as possible.
i love it when people pull out comments like 'i have 347 snakes',...like its meant to mean theyre a better, more knowledgeable keeper than anyone else.

or, i got my first snake last week, now i have a rack set up and need to fill the 20 empty tubs as quickly as possible,....

very sad for the animals,.....life is such a lottery for them.


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## Smithers (Dec 31, 2011)

Quality animals, reputation and good customer service is what I go for. I have gone back several times to the same breeder for all of these reasons. You know who you are and thank you  Which reminds me I need to add some more funds to the payment plan on my latest acquisition. Doh!!


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## waruikazi (Dec 31, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Some species are easier to breed and rear up than others but it seems all species are dropping in prices, although I think the spiraling slowed down compared to previous 3 years.
> 
> "what people think about the long term effects of price spiraling"? Nothing! They don't think. If they did, they would see that in 3 years time their reptiles will be worth nothing. What a goal to work towards to.??? If reptiles were worth nothing, would Gavin be chasing Oenpellis and would John Weigel spend tens of thousands on getting RSP into captivity? I think not. Take the $$$ from the hobby and the hobby will be $$$ poorer - not necessarily in terms of money.



If they weren't worth any money at all i don't think they would have had to jump though so many hoops, stroke so many egos and spend so much money to get to where they are now. I think there is a good chance they would have done it anyway, Peter Krauss did it when they weren't worth any money at all!


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## LizardLady (Dec 31, 2011)

The way I see it, if you have kept animals (quality animals, at that) for a certain amount of time, have done your homework THOROUGHLY and researched the animals, their husbandry (now and into the future), you breed these quality animals, keep the offspring until they're REALLY ready to leave you, they become your "grandkids"... 

For every person that has wanted to buy one of my animals, I research the person (as much as possible, without being invasive) to see if they're "suitable" for one of my "grandkids", give them a Care Package, am available 24/7 for anything they require, make certain their enclosure etc it up to "standard" before the animal leaves me (go and see the enclosure set-up if necessary).

I was "involved" quite recently, in someone asking me "how low would you go" for one of my animals - the answer: the same price I told them in the very beginning. If someone is prepared to see my animals as an "auction", they would not be suitable (in my opinion) to have one of my "grandkids". I say to everyone before they get a Care Package - if you can't afford a vet bill, don't get the animal. Simple as that. Irrespective of what type of animal it is.

Just my two cents' worth, stepping off my soap-box now!


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> If they weren't worth any money at all i don't think they would have had to jump though so many hoops, stroke so many egos and spend so much money to get to where they are now. I think there is a good chance they would have done it anyway, Peter Krauss did it when they weren't worth any money at all!



Peter Krauss did what? He didn't buy the snakes and didn't sell the progeny because there weren't any. Today, he is happily selling monitors, etc.. Times have changed, so did the cost of reptiles, food, electricity, vet bills, transportation, enclosures ... I could go on.


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## joeplant57 (Dec 31, 2011)

I keep and breed Parrots, there quality birds and are expensive. People would rather buy the cheaper one around the corner, there not bothered if they come from good stock because people look at prices first quality second if at all. For instance most folk would not tell a Cockatoo from good stock and one wild bird that had been caught ( this happens way to much with Parrots). I think I am saying only folk who is in the hobby be it birds snakes and so on will pay for good stuff, the average Tom Blogs will always buy the cheaper ****. I better shut up I do get carried away, trouble is I never know what I'm on about lol.. Happy New Year guys. Joe


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## waruikazi (Dec 31, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Peter Krauss did what? He didn't buy the snakes and didn't sell the progeny because there weren't any. Today, he is happily selling monitors, etc.. Times have changed, so did the cost of reptiles, food, electricity, vet bills, transportation, enclosures ... I could go on.



I think you're amissing my point Michael. Peter Krauss kept those drop bears when their value was different. I doubt anyone even knew what they were back then, same with Greg Miles he had about 4 of the things. I'm saying that Gavin Bedford (and probably John Weigel with RSP's) would probably be trying to keep them even if they were worth no money at all.


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## feathergrass (Dec 31, 2011)

as a newbie to reps i spent about $1500 all up for enclosure and thermostat and timers and everything else BEFORE i got my beardie
i was gonna get 2 beardie hatchys price at 95 for one if breeding was successful or 75 each for two high yellows 
my folks decided ( without telling me) when they were looking for a christmas present for me to pay for a apparently yellow ( i say apparently yellow as i dont trust pet stores) beardie hatchy from the local pet store which cost them 120$ i decided rather than hurting my folks feeling that i would contact who i wa sbuying mine off and cancel ( only one enclosure) and hopefullu in the future will buy off them at some stage..
i was not worried about *how much* my beardie was gonna cost me as long as it was healthy eating and strong i wasnt even worried if my beardie had defects ( missing toe kinked tail that kind of thing) beacuse i wanted a companion that didnt have fur or feathers or lived in water and i knew right off my beardie was gonna be depending on me for its health and happiness ( now hes spoilt)
i know some people are after quick sales and some after cheap buys but to me if the cheap buyer is willing to put time and effort in and love their companion thats ok and if the cheap seller wants the fast sale then i would hope those buying either have cos they really want a compaion they love or only bying the cheap sale cos they paid loads for their set up and want a companion fast so that the set ups arent empty for months and months like mine were ( and mine was only cos i refused to buy from the local pet store lol)


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I think you're amissing my point Michael. Peter Krauss kept those drop bears when their value was different. I doubt anyone even knew what they were back then, same with Greg Miles he had about 4 of the things. I'm saying that Gavin Bedford (and probably John Weigel with RSP's) would probably be trying to keep them even if they were worth no money at all.



So did everyone else then Gordo, my point is, would PK (and others) spend the money getting drop bears now if he couldn't get any return on them?

It seems that many people think the old days were fantastic because money didn't change hands, only reptiles were swapped or given. We had bugger all to swap most of the times because we didn't breed anything. Even in the early eighties, I had to collect reptiles from the wild for the Zoo because there was no stock available even amongst the Zoos. When breeding started, breeders put prices on their reptiles because they realised how much effort it takes. The "money for snakes" is not a bad thing, it's a natural progression ... and a good one as valuable things (of any kind) are best protected. Just look at the history of crocodiles. Once near extinction, listed on CITES - now they're the best protected species, we have booming wild populations and a healthy crocodile industry along the side of it. Why did it happen? Because a handful of enterprising individuals could see $$$$ in croc farming and that's how it all started. It took them 20 years but who is the winner now? Both the farmers and the crocs. The difference is, those original croc farmers had business sense and money to invest as well as serious interest in crocodiles. Today's reptile hobbyists have no business sense, some don't even have much common sense, just love for their animals. God bless them and the hobby.


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## hrafna (Dec 31, 2011)

i guess that is why oenpellis are selling for 15k a pair. even though they haven't (officially) been bred yet. because it has absolutely nothing to do with money and purely for the joy of keeping these animals!


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## waruikazi (Dec 31, 2011)

I shouldn't have mentioned PK, i don't know him. Maybe he did only do it for the money. The point i was adressing was that Gavin is only doing his current project because they are worth a lot of money. My point was not about the time in history that PK had them or how good or bad it was, it was about the relative value of reptiles during that time.

I have spoken to Gavin at length about this and i have no issue in saying that he would be doing it wether they are worth a dollar each or a million dollars each. But i shouldn't talk on another person's behalf. So i won't say anymore on that.


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## junglepython2 (Dec 31, 2011)

At the end of the day you can bitch and moan all you like, it won't make any difference, people will still undercut others and prices will fall until they reach a balance. I also hate to see super cheap reptiles, as many people start to view them as disposable but in a free market I can't see any way around it.


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## Wookie (Dec 31, 2011)

Does it really surprise anybody that the reptile pet trade is as commercial as any other trade? When RSPs came onto the market they were commanding an exorbitant amount of money. It wasn't because it cost that much to produce them. I didn't see people giving them away to successful researchers or breeders throughout the country to further establish the captive population. Most are going to line their pockets while they can. Some call it greedy, others call it opportunistic or clever. Call it what you want, it is just how it is. Deal with it.

Also cost doesn't equate to quality. I've bought a cheap snake that is gorgeous off a top bloke who I could always give a bell if I had any questions. I've bought expensive snakes and have had a very similar experience. Do some research yourself before buying and get to know the breeder and then decide whether or not you're comfortable doing business with them. Just because somebody offers you a snake at a cheaper price, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be of lesser quality. If a "reputable breeder" had a clutch for sale and I bought them for $1000 then I flipped them to another guy for $2000 would that make me a higher quality trader and make you more likely to buy from me :lol: ?


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

"It wasn't because it cost that much to produce them."

Wookie, can you please tell us exactly how much it cost JW to obtain the breeding stock? I mean all up; the trips (not just the successful one), permits and time spent dealing with bureaucrats, the set up, etc., (yes, time = money unless you're on doll).


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## Wild~Touch (Dec 31, 2011)

On what grounds to you base your assumptions regarding RSPs Mr.wookie, do tell


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## cement (Dec 31, 2011)

So, you don't like people selling cheaper animals, because it damages the hobby, but paying a higher price is all sweet, as long as those charging a higher price aren't in it for the money?? 

How about this... the large 'professional' breeders ie Snake Ranch, sth, farmer etc, etc actually do it as a source of employment...right? So does that constitute passion in your eyes?

And so what if someone who doesn't make a living out of breeding snakes, sells a few clutches cheap? They might make plenty of money from other sources, just so they can spend it on keeping their animals in very good conditions... because they love the animals as pets and not just stock.

You'll never change what happens in a free marketplace, so if you have an issue...get a tissue,Lol!


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 31, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> So did everyone else then Gordo, my point is, would PK (and others) spend the money getting drop bears now if he couldn't get any return on them?
> 
> It seems that many people think the old days were fantastic because money didn't change hands, only reptiles were swapped or given. We had bugger all to swap most of the times because we didn't breed anything. Even in the early eighties, I had to collect reptiles from the wild for the Zoo because there was no stock available even amongst the Zoos. When breeding started, breeders put prices on their reptiles because they realised how much effort it takes. The "money for snakes" is not a bad thing, it's a natural progression ... and a good one as valuable things (of any kind) are best protected. Just look at the history of crocodiles. Once near extinction, listed on CITES - now they're the best protected species, we have booming wild populations and a healthy crocodile industry along the side of it. Why did it happen? Because a handful of enterprising individuals could see $$$$ in croc farming and that's how it all started. It took them 20 years but who is the winner now? Both the farmers and the crocs. The difference is, those original croc farmers had business sense and money to invest as well as serious interest in crocodiles. Today's reptile hobbyists have no business sense, some don't even have much common sense, just love for their animals. God bless them and the hobby.


"Todays reptile hobbyists have no business sense"
This is why prices drop so much. If people ran businesses with the same attitude "he is doing it for $100 so I will do it for $80" everyone would go broke. Being a shop I hear it alot " I can by xxxx snake for xxxx $$$ from xxx" It is not like buying dry goods where it is exactly the same product (usually anyway), it is livestock and they are all different. Why would you price match or beat a price for something that could be potentially be far from the same thing!
Paul


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## hrafna (Dec 31, 2011)

just throwing it out there for discussion, but wouldn't higher prices just increase poaching? if someone wants a gtp but isn't able/willing to pay the $$$ for it, they would be more likely to try and poach some?


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## aussie-albino (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm sure I read an article in one of the reptile magazines by one of the people accompanying John or have read it somewhere that he passed RSPs to relevant govt. groups museums, zoos or something before he sold any as part of the deal when he was allowed to collect them.

cheers
Scott


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## Wookie (Dec 31, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Wookie, can you please tell us exactly how much it cost JW to obtain the breeding stock? I mean all up; the trips (not just the successful one), permits and time spent dealing with bureaucrats, the set up, etc., (yes, time = money unless you're on doll).



That is something you'd have to take up with him Michael, I can't tell you exactly how much it cost. Obviously my post wasn't a personal attack on John, he has spent most of his life in this field and should be commended for his work. He is obviously extremely passionate about this work.

And time still equals money even if you are on welfare :lol:


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

No one is suggesting attack on John, you have made a profound statement that it didn't cost him much to produce them.



hrafna said:


> just throwing it out there for discussion, but wouldn't higher prices just increase poaching? if someone wants a gtp but isn't able/willing to pay the $$$ for it, they would be more likely to try and poach some?



At today's prices - no. How much would a trip and say 2 weeks stay at IR cost?


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## zulu (Dec 31, 2011)

sna


Wrightpython said:


> so if i give my animals away does that mean the people who get them( who would otherwise not be able to afford them)will not have the means to house and look after them properly or does it mean they will have more money to spend on their wellbeing after the transaction. You only have to watch the news and see the puppy farms to see what money does to the pet trade. i was at the first meetings in NSW when the ahs were discussing licencing and the biggest thing npw didnt want was a price on each animals head which is why petshops are not allowed to sell reptiles. what is the difference between petshops selling an animal to joe blow for $100.00 or a breeder selling 1000kes a year for $100 each to 1000 joe blows, they dont often care who they sell to as long as they have a licence, which is to easy to get. what is to stop a breeder using non licenced animals to breed and then selling on the offspring. i know of one breeder who has 2 pairs of bhp on licence but last year sold 65 hatchlings. must just be good breeders i guess. when money is involved people often just get greedy, i thought we were in the hobby for the love of reptiles, frogs turtles etc not to make a dollar. If as stated it is often more expensive to breed them than what you get for the offspring the answer is simple dont breed them



Yeh its pretty obvious whats been going on with the bhps,they get brought in from up north,always a cheaper option to buy and sell than to breed,with all that nasty feeding and breeding stuff LOL
Anyone with half a brain knows that selling them for the price a childrens python there must be some short cuts.


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## Wookie (Dec 31, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> No one is suggesting attack on John, you have made a profound statement that it didn't cost him much to produce them.



I don't recall making that statement. That is taken completely out of context. I will concede however, that it wasn't my clearest post. I wasn't only talking about the F1 generation. How much did a pair of F1 offspring cost? I have no doubt when they sold the F2 generation, F3 generation and so on breeders more than recouped the costs of purchasing the initial pair of F1s/F2s etc. Irrespective of their motivations, money was made. I don't see the problem with that. Even if I entertain your statement above (not at all saying it is fact or true, merely speculating); John could have sold them for whatever he liked. As passionate as he is, logic suggests he would have offset the costs of getting them into captivity with his sales.


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## Red-Ink (Dec 31, 2011)

graffix said:


> Let me just start off by making it very clear I am in no way saying people should get into reptiles, or any other animal for that matter, just to make money. Passion and a sound knowledge base are critical to maintaining quality animals.
> 
> Now for my biggest pet peeve ................ Those that try to make a quick buck of their excess animals.
> 
> ...




I understand what you are saying and it is not difficult to see that you are correct with the market trend..... what I don't understand is, why the whinge....

1) Yes people under cutting the market will drive the price down....
Two sides to this people will find it easier to get into reptiles due to the lower cost.... our numbers gives us strength against to beureucratic crap. That's what saves the furry cute keepers from their legislations while they continually try and put the boot into us so cheaper prices have a good effect.

On the other side it does give the animals a somewhat dispossable value but hey BDs are an avg $60 despite their high avg running cost and people still get them. Now your saying the breeders that get undercut have a hard time competing in the market that's their problem not mine or yours.... There is no law saying you have to make that pairing in the upcomming season if your worried about moving the progeny, it ain't that difficult to see the "market trend" in prices of certain animals. If they still want to breed them in the hopes of improving their stock well, keep what they want and sell the rest for what the market dictates. This is what somebody with a "love" for their animals and hobby would do. NOT whinge about prices....

2)Your saying that this "industry" (it's a hobby mate industry is about $$$) should'nt be about nomey... yet your the one bring up market trends and prices. Your saying the problem is they've set a new price, SO WHAT... it's a hobby mate not an industry only people that are worried about profit worry about the new market price.

3)Your saying there's a danger that some animals are going to disappear from the hobby cause people will stop breeding them cause their deemed "worthless".... again there goes the equation of animals for monetary worth. SO what if they don't breed their "worthless" animals. If their dedicated to the hobby and not the industry it won't make a single difference to them. If somebody wants these worthless animals they will seek them out. I'm pretty sure if someboby pre-buys "worthless" animals from a breeder they may be persuaded to breed them for that person. AGAIN there's no law saying you have to breed your animals and no law saying if you do you simply can't give the progeny away.
Stop having a whinge about prices in the guise of animal welfare.


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

cement said:


> So, you don't like people selling cheaper animals, because it damages the hobby, but paying a higher price is all sweet, as long as those charging a higher price aren't in it for the money??



Graham, what is cheap and what is expensive? Price is an arbitrary entity. No one here is or should be in position to set the bar but all of us can and do argue for and against. I hope we are allowed to do that. Someone in this thread mention that ....... "until the prices will stabilize". That's my point - are we there? I like to think we are but the bargain hunters will argue the opposite until they get their animals for nothing. They are winning at the moment and they continue on winning, people like me (and maybe many others) will be out. Well, not entirely, I will still breed my greens but perhaps one clutch a year and I will give the babes away. My interest in their reproductive biology will be diminished because I won't be able to sustain the numbers I need. No more interesting news, articles but hey, I will be a good hobbyist.


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## snakes123 (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok i have not read everyones comments. But i think if we all were in it for the love of the animal, and not to make money we should really just be giving the animals we want gone, or the ones we have bred away. But see this does not happen, even when its a normal animal, the sale price is most of the time over the price that the owner has spent on the animal, especially the newly hatched ones.

Say you have two hatchie geckos, you put them up for say $100 each, where in the time you have had them you have only spent $6.95 on a box of woodies.

Just my opinion.


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

Just a side note: in the good old days, no one would even contemplate breeding keelbacks, common and brown tree snakes, slaty-grays and other such species. Not to mention buying one. Today, they are available - why is it? Pure love and scientific interest? My a...


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## junglepython2 (Dec 31, 2011)

snakes123 said:


> Ok i have not read everyones comments. But i think if we all were in it for the love of the animal, and not to make money we should really just be giving the animals we want gone, or the ones we have bred away. But see this does not happen, even when its a normal animal, the sale price is most of the time over the price that the owner has spent on the animal, especially the newly hatched ones.
> 
> Say you have two hatchie geckos, you put them up for say $100 each, where in the time you have had them you have only spent $6.95 on a box of woodies.
> 
> Just my opinion.



Maybe at 15 you don't really value the time you have put into them which is fair enough, but most people do put a price on their time spent raising the animals and getting them feeding etc. Not to mention all the time you have to spend dealing with morons and tyre kickers until you finally find someone actually interested in the animals.


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## kawasakirider (Dec 31, 2011)

Same thing happens with cars and bikes, where one piece of machinery can cost up to 100k and over and lose thousands every day because people sell them cheaper and lower the bar. It doesn't necessarily mean the stock is bad, it means the seller is stuck with it unless they are prepared to compete.

My dad has a VE Calais, a Mercedes ML320 and a GU ppatrol he is trying to get rid of right now, when he bought them they were decently priced and now he's struggling to get his money back even though they are the cheapest I've seen advertised and all are immaculate. 

It just takes time and patience. There is always someone who will sell something at rock bottom prices to move it, the only way the market can be controlled is if most of you guys selling these things hold staunch and keep your prices where you want them, not make a knee jerk reaction to move them instantly. Eventually they'll sell if your product is good enough. Unfortunately that won't happen, so deal with it


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## snakes123 (Dec 31, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> Maybe at 15 you don't really value the time you have put into them which is fair enough, but most people do put a price on their time spent raising the animals and getting them feeding etc. Not to mention all the time you have to spend dealing with morons and tyre kickers until you finally find someone actually interested in the animals.




Yes i know that. I have geckos for sale now. I spend ages looking after them, driving everywhere to get their food. Sometimes borrowing money for the food as well. I love all of my animals, even the ones i'm selling straight from the egg. 

Yes ive had many tyre kickers, hours emailing and on the phone to people. But im not selling them to the people who send me ridiculous offers, and honestly you see on the for sale threads many people saying no ridiculous offers as well even when they want the animal gone fast.

So im still not prepared to sell the animals for as much as i've spent on them. Im selling them for the time, and the love i have put into caring for them as they should be kept. Now when the animal is priced at $200, and someone offers $50 the first thought that crossed my mind is that well if you really need to spend as little on the animal as you can, then that tells me how then are you going to care for it properly when you are trying to get everything as cheap as you can.


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## 43nickw (Dec 31, 2011)

i have breed numerous snakes,and at one stage had 52 carpet python babies, i gave most of them away, but numerous times i have advertised snakes for sale just to have someone put theirs next to mine for $20 less, and it goes but yours doesnt, but thats life, we just have to deal with it.


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## cement (Dec 31, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Graham, what is cheap and what is expensive? Price is an arbitrary entity. No one here is or should be in position to set the bar but all of us can and do argue for and against. I hope we are allowed to do that. Someone in this thread mention that ....... "until the prices will stabilize". That's my point - are we there? I like to think we are but the bargain hunters will argue the opposite until they get their animals for nothing. They are winning at the moment and they continue on winning, people like me (and maybe many others) will be out. Well, not entirely, I will still breed my greens but perhaps one clutch a year and I will give the babes away. My interest in their reproductive biology will be diminished because I won't be able to sustain the numbers I need. No more interesting news, articles but hey, I will be a good hobbyist.



Gday Mike, I agree. The reason prices won't be 'set'...is because they can't be! Its entirely up to the moment in space at that time. 4 yrs ago URS were selling greens at $7700. That was then, this is now.

To your question, This is what happened to me last year. I only want to breed what I can manage. I know what goes into keeping hatchlings, and I build houses for a living but one of my passions is herps. Because I work a 8-10 hr day, I know what I can handle and so that's why I select what I breed. I figured that a clutch of bhps from my WA pair and a clutch of diamonds would suffice and it would of, except my daughter put her spotteds together (first timer) and we got a clutch, even though the male was only in with the female for 4 days and she was just constantly trying to get away, so to save stressing her I took him out, but he must of slipped it in while she was asleep because she gave us a clutch. And then my diamond laid a clutch of 50. So from wanting only a few... I got a many!

At the time diamonds were being advertised at between $220 and $350 (hatchlings). So I put mine up for $180. To me that is cheap, as it was at that time. I didn't want to sell them cheap, I HAD to.You know as well how many hrs go into getting them feeding etc,etc. I was actually falling asleep while trying to get them to feed and waking up and finding that the snake had climbed out of its tub and would have to find it. 8-10 hrs days on the tools, plus sometimes 4 hrs at night in the snake shed. There was no way I would skimp or shirk the work that the snakes needed, but you can understand I had to sell them fast. At least I could say, when they asked if i would go cheaper, that they already WERE cheap so... no!

Some people did get them even cheaper though, and these are the people I work with in our wildlife org, they do a great job with our wildlife so I was happy, and some were given away. ( I think everyone would agree that acquiring something for free, is, our favorite price !)

I am sure you will keep writing good articles and taking great photos regardless of whether you breed or not. Besides to be a GOOD hobbyist you have to have a thousand snakes of different species and by now be on your second lot of jags!


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## Waterrat (Dec 31, 2011)

I changed my mind, PM sent to Graham.


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## Renenet (Dec 31, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> Not to mention all the time you have to spend dealing with morons and tyre kickers until you finally find someone actually interested in the animals.



A full-time job in itself. Although I haven't done it with snakes, I can tell you it's exhausting.

I get your argument, Graffix. But what if you're a first-time breeder, with no reputation? Would you actually be able to sell your animals for a "responsible" price, even if you wanted to?


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## snakehandler (Jan 1, 2012)

An animal is worth what a person is willing to pay for it, the cheapest is not alway the best, or for that matter cheap does not always mean 'nasty' either. We have watched the price of some species drop through the floor....supply and demand! When we sell we base our prices on what we think is reasonable based on what we would pay ourselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

snakehandler said:


> An animal is worth what a person is willing to pay for it, the cheapest is not alway the best, or for that matter cheap does not always mean 'nasty' either. We have watched the price of some species drop through the floor....supply and demand! When we sell we base our prices on what we think is reasonable based on what we would pay ourselves.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You're not telling anything new snakehandler, we read the words "supply & demand" thousand times on this forum. What would be more interesting if you could tell us where will the breeders be in 3-4 years time if the trend continues. 

I hear on the grape vine that SR is not doing well, luckily there is another business to prop it up, Brian Barnett pulled out of breeding long time ago because he could see the writing on the wall. It seems to me URS are concentrating more and more on herp equipment rather than on breeding and the Stones retired. A close friend of mine is downsizing. 
What is it all telling you? These pros are the pillars of the hobby / industry and there is no doubt they're feeling the pinch.


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## wokka (Jan 1, 2012)

People change their preferences for where they put their surplus dollars. As more and more charities emerge there more and more choices for descressionary spending. Individuals cant save the whole world singlehanded and so have to chose. It may be better to do one project properly and pass on the past interests to others with a new found curiosity.


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

You are very philosophical this morning wokka, you must have stayed sober last night. LOL
I agree, we have to change with times.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 1, 2012)

Some of the bigger players have contributed to price drops by breeding too many animals and some also by undercutting everyone else by offering discounts.


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

You're dead right Rams, I almost forgotten.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 1, 2012)

Years ago people used to take gradual steps to get into the breeding side of the hobby.A lot started out with a hatchy pair of say childreni,grew them up and bred them.Any money made in selling the young was then used to purchase hatchlings of more expensive species and the cycle continued.Prices were high but that didn't matter if you followed the above procedure. These days it seems a lot of people in the hobby want to jump straight in the deep end by purchasing adult animals with the intent of breeding them right away.

I think some of the attitude towards pricing these days also comes down to attitude given that a lot of breeders these days didn't put those initial hard yards in.


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## wokka (Jan 1, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> Some of the bigger players have contributed to price drops by breeding too many animals and some also by undercutting everyone else by offering discounts.


Perhaps their motive wasn't profit. I have heard one of the bigger breeders say that his aim was to make pythons affordable for all the kids to keep.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 1, 2012)

wokka said:


> Perhaps their motive wasn't profit. I have heard one of the bigger breeders say that his aim was to make pythons affordable for all the kids to keep.



I was always under the impression that people started businesses to make a profit and to maximise those profits,perhaps I was wrong.


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## jahan (Jan 1, 2012)

Years ago Rams there was a 2yr waiting list just to buy
a good palm jungle,now it`s take your pick.


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## wokka (Jan 1, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> I was always under the impression that people started businesses to make a profit and to maximise those profits,perhaps I was wrong.


I agree thats the case with most business but it comes back to the age old arguement of weather breeding snakes is a business. If profit is a requirement of bussiness then in many cases breeding snakes is not a bussiness.


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

wokka said:


> Perhaps their motive wasn't profit. I have heard one of the bigger breeders say that his aim was to make pythons affordable for all the kids to keep.



It sound very cute, doesn't it. I hear that from other sides of the industry too "we don't do it for the money, it's to support ....."
We ain't all stupid.


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## snakehandler (Jan 1, 2012)

The large breeders have certainly contributed to the price drop, just look at thee situation with Green Tree Pythons, Albinos and Black Headed Pythons, the biggest factor was the flooding of the market with them. The hobby will survive as a hobby, like breeders of dogs, there are a large number of breeders who are in it to improve the lines they have, maintain a price and breed for the passion of it, not the money behind it. Those who are doing breeding need to remember that people getting into it will look for a cheap price as well as all the other things mentioned, follow up service, quality information etc. Over the last few years I have had a number of people tell me they are going to breed for profit....the thing they forget is the high value animals will be flooded in the market by the time they have raised their own to a size that is able to be bred from, to be successful in a business you don't follow the trends, you create them. The ones who make the money from breeding reptiles are the ones that create the trends, a good example is the albinos from Simon Stone, the Green Tree Pythons and Womas from Roy Pailes....look at the price they sold them at in the beginning and now look at the price you pay for them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SYNeR (Jan 1, 2012)

As much as the licencing (in NSW at least -- i'm not familiar with other state) is a bit of bureaucratic nonsense, I'm actually glad it exists now.. Forcing people to obtain / pay for licences and wait for a licence before purchasing reptiles definitely takes away the impulse buying, not to mention having to find a breeder and being unable to buy reptiles straight from a pet store..

I really think this is the direction dog breeding needs to take, particularly with the prevalence of puppy mills, dog shelters, etc.
Maybe i'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but I think this is just as important as pricing (if not more so -- animal welfare, IMO, is far more important than profitability as a breeder).


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## snakehandler (Jan 1, 2012)

Dogs are very different, there are registered breeders who are held to an ethical standard, then there are backyard breeders and puppy farms. Some of the breeders for show fit into the puppy farm area too though! If you think about it, to compare the two groups (reptiles and dogs) then you will find that the majority of people in the reptile world are the same as the backyard breeders, some of the "professional" breeders are like puppy farms, and no breeder in reptiles are required to meet any ethical standard.....just look at the massive amount of inbreeding being done in the reptile world, perhaps we should look at how disastrous that was for dogs such as german shepherds and many others! Talking to a number of vets they are starting to see neurological problems and other issues that are directly linked to the extent of inbreeding and a small genetic pool from which we are working with!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

snakehandler said:


> The ones who make the money from breeding reptiles are the ones that create the trends, a good example is the albinos from Simon Stone, the Green Tree Pythons and Womas from Roy Pailes....look at the price they sold them at in the beginning and now look at the price you pay for them!



So, can you give us some particular examples of the trends they created? How does their price drop differentiate them from others? Or are saying they created the trend of price dropping? Little confusing.


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## wokka (Jan 1, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> It sound very cute, doesn't it. I hear that from other sides of the industry too "we don't do it for the money, it's to support ....."
> We ain't all stupid.



Perhaps not stupid but definitely cynical. Hes now moved on to saving Tassy Devils. Do you thinks that is to make money also!


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

wokka said:


> Perhaps not stupid but definitely cynical. Hes now moved on to saving Tassy Devils. Do you thinks that is to make money also!



I was referring to someone else actually. It's a common "feel good - make impression" phrase.


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## mysnakesau (Jan 1, 2012)

graffix said:


> ......
> Now for my biggest pet peeve ................ Those that try to make a quick buck of their excess animals.
> 
> A scenario that is played over time and time again is where a hobbyist has produced some offspring, has a look online ans sees they are selling for (let's just say) $100 ea so a brainstorm says "I will sell mine for $80 ea and sell them all, quickly".
> ...



Its ashame that it goes this way. It teaches ppl nothing about being responsible for a pet. If they pay a minimal amount for a snake, what is the likelihood that this animal won't receive the treatment it deserves. I hear many pet owners say its not worth taking a $40 snake to the vet when it gets sick. Just throw it away and go get another one - that is the attitude that arrises from having prices come down like they are.

My sister for one, has been proudly picking up bargains and has now had mites, twice, in her small collection within a space of 6 months or so, and recently losing a newly acquired animal which gave its mites to her existing collection. I am not saying anyone is at fault here, but it does pay, for buyers to do their homework and chose their source wisely. Don't buy, willy-nilly, just because its cheap for what it is and you just have to have it. If you want an animal that is well bred, and come from a breeder who cares well for their animals, then be prepared to pay that bit more for them. Be patient and wait for the best animal instead of having to have something right now because you won't get another for that price. You will, and you will most likely stumble across better animals in better condition. Good things come to those who wait.


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## Jeffa (Jan 1, 2012)

Because of current economic times, I do not see people making large ammounts of money in this hobby unless you get an albino BHP, woma, Gtp, Roughie or whatever there is not an albino of. If you manage to finally get a true 2 year old male Blue G.T.P or some Oenpeliensis or create a stunning new morph (that has no issues) you will be there to make some good money, but only for a short time, These mite phased gtps and yellows seem to be the new trend but quite a few breeders own them, so when they are released another possible influx of morphs will hit the market close together therefore cutting the price.
Most of us are doing it tough in todays GFC or whatever you want call it, why would a business selling reptiles not feel the pinch also?
As a hobbiest it encourages me to afford cheaper yet quality reptiles. If you are a breeder who relies on an income from sales then I say to you, if you make some good money from the reptiles then good on you but save your pennies.
I can see why but do not agree if people are crossing species or throwing mixes together to try and jag a new morph so that money can be made (or so they think). Times are tough people.


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## snakehandler (Jan 1, 2012)

snakehandler said:


> , a good example is the albinos from Simon Stone, the Green Tree Pythons and Womas from Roy Pailes....look at the price they sold them at in the beginning and now look at the price you pay for them!



WR I already mentioned them, not being cynical, realistic. Its like any business, get in, develop a trend...GTPs are a great example, make money, get out......a few years ago you struggled to find GTPs under 8000, now you can pick them for for 800-900 (usually 1200).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

snakehandler said:


> WR I already mentioned them, not being cynical, realistic. Its like any business, get in, develop a trend...GTPs are a great example, make money, get out......a few years ago you struggled to find GTPs under 8000, now you can pick them for for 800-900 (usually 1200).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I am not being cynical either and certainly agree that it's the case but I fail to see what trend those men set up. Simon retired and as far as I know his retirement has nothing to do with falling prices and Roy is still in the business. Did Simon and Roy made any progressive roads in the GTP business? As far as I know neither of the two were responsible for the price crash 3 years ago ....... maybe I am missing something.


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## cement (Jan 1, 2012)

With reference to Simons albinoes, I am pretty sure he means that by being the first to produce them made him a wedge, It then became trendy to have one...which is where his wedge came from.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 1, 2012)

I had a situation at work where some people came in and wanted a baby blue tongue. They had set all their enclosure up ready, the young boy it was for was lovely. We had one baby out in the back off display area as it had been attacked by its cage mate before I started working there, and had lost a fair bit of tail. It was a lovely little blue tongue. As soon as the boy saw it his face lit up, he took it so gently, didn't care a bit about the tail, it was just his new little friend. The boss let them have it for $45 (not that much of a bargain for bluies, but it is a shop) and they were stoked, they would have happily paid full price anyway. That whole sale made my day as I knew they were going to look after it and the little boy would love it and so begins his trip into the wonderful world of reptiles. Sometimes cheap is good for the animal and the human. As for everyone saying they would pay more and only buy from established breeders, were does that leave all of us that may have years of experience keeping (more than some respected breeders in some cases) but have not yet ventured into the joys and heartbreaks of breeding, does this mean we should just not do it, should we price the same as the big boys and get overlooked anyway, what do we do. Yes I want to breed some of mine, not for the cash, for the excitement of seeing what is produced, what colours, patterns, variation, the experience, the sense of achievement, the education, all those things. I have a pair of Gammons coming shortly and have a male here, I will be looking forward to breeding them later as they are not too common, they sell for a pittance, relatively speaking, but I think they are beautiful snakes. But some of the comments could lead me to think I should give up before I even start. My own animals have ranged from very cheap to expensive for what it was. They are all special in there own way, some for what breeding will produce, others for the enjoyment they give me as pets, and others because I have taken them out of bad situations. If it gets to the stage where I am getting too many for them to all be in spacious accomodation I will stop. I would prefer to give my animals away to someone like that young boy than sell them off to people that want to make a quick buck. You can't judge everyone that starts breeding and selling the same. I guess my point is, a lot of new breeders are forced to sell for cheap if everyone is going to avoid them when they are starting out. Just because they are new at it doesn't mean their animals aren't from quality lines.


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

cement said:


> With reference to Simons albinoes, I am pretty sure he means that by being the first to produce them made him a wedge, It then became trendy to have one...which is where his wedge came from.




Sure thing. But when it comes to greens where have the two gentleman set any trends. Snakehandler did use GTPs as an example. Making it bog and moving onto something else is certainly a good alternative but that doesn't constitute a trend set within the discipline.


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## snakehandler (Jan 1, 2012)

WR, cement is right...I am not saying they made the price crash, but they bred animals which people wanted, paid good money for and then backed off once the market was flooded just before the prices dropped.....certainly Roy is in business, but look at his breeders and breeding stock, they alter to maximize the gaps in the market. Simon retired, but he bred the only albino carpets around for a long time, now the prices have dropped. Both these men read the market and gave the industry what it wanted at a price which made it profitable, now there is a much smaller return, its the way all markets go....most of the markets have this trend.

If you go back further into the industry and look at what people used to pay before breeding and regulations.....in the days where is was truly a hobby.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cement (Jan 1, 2012)

Ahh yes that's true, but I am pretty sure that he firstly did it for money, and not as a loyal disciple.Hence the chess playing and remaining one step ahead at all times.

I don't know how the greens fit in.


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

I understand all that. The same goes for few other people we know who were heavily involved in breeding and diversified, I think I mentioned few names earlier in this thread. I just couldn't see where the greens came into it either. 

It's not hard to create demand / market with something new and pretty but realistically, unless you're into designer morphing, jagging or albinising (lol), you are on the outside. Gavin will be the last man standing, bringing something new and pure into the hobby.


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## longqi (Jan 1, 2012)

Greens were always a big bucks reptile
Some people did very well out of them
After a series of events their price plummeted
They will only get even cheaper now but will probably stabilise around $500/600

Exactly the same thing will happen with every reptile

Example X breeds a morph after 10 years planning
proves to be hereditary and kindacute
sells 10 hatchies
those 10 get huge dollars
next years sells 20 same result
next year 50 same price

Following year the first 10 are bred by someone else releasing 50 onto the market
next year 150 hit market
next year 400
price starts dropping

look at ads for jungles from even 5 years ago
anything half decent was $600
same snake now $250/300

Its just supply and demand
same as any business

but quality will always sell


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## Jeffa (Jan 1, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> I understand all that. The same goes for few other people we know who were heavily involved in breeding and diversified, I think I mentioned few names earlier in this thread. I just couldn't see where the greens came into it either.
> 
> It's not hard to create demand / market with something new and pretty but realistically, unless you're into designer morphing, jagging or albinising (lol), you are on the outside. Gavin will be the last man standing, bringing something new and pure into the hobby.



Hope so Michael. Money or no money, if he can bring oenpellis into captivity sucessfully than he deserves to make money, but at the end of the day it will be only for a short time in a market that is not as it's strongest.
I do hope that down the track money can be made by breeders that have a passion about the health of an animal as opposed to something new regardless of the wellbeing.


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## Renenet (Jan 1, 2012)

That's a lovely story, KJ. It's experiences like that that make all the pains of retail worth it. I hope the little boy and his bluey have many happy years together. 



KaotikJezta said:


> As for everyone saying they would pay more and only buy from established breeders, were does that leave all of us that may have years of experience keeping (more than some respected breeders in some cases) but have not yet ventured into the joys and heartbreaks of breeding, does this mean we should just not do it, should we price the same as the big boys and get overlooked anyway, what do we do.



I asked a similar question earlier that hasn't been answered, as far as I've noticed. I get what's being said about breeders undercutting the market eventually leading to lower prices for all. But as new breeders with no reputation, you can't charge the same as the more established breeders. So what indeed do we do? I'm not breeding snakes yet but plan to start in 2013, probably with a pair of stimmies, so this is something I'm interested in.


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## Waterrat (Jan 1, 2012)

Reneret, new breeders have to follow the same track old breeders followed. Get to know your species, it's requirements, learn by listening to others and reading, take notes and learn from mistakes. You will not only gain experience but you will find a great satisfaction in what you're doing. Reputation and respect has to be earned, it can't be bought or obtained by making shortcuts. A genuine interest, enthusiasm, perseverance, believing in what you're doing and an attitude to challenge the knockers are the main essentials. JMO


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## wokka (Jan 1, 2012)

You dont have to breed snakes to gain a reputation. Participation in herp societies, forums and the like show potential buyer what sort of person you are and the extent of your knowledge. One thing i would look for when buying is a local supplier with consistent available which should translate to after sales service.


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## Renenet (Jan 1, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Reneret, new breeders have to follow the same track old breeders followed.



I get you. I've got no problem with putting in the hard work, it's just that after reading Graffix's post I'm a bit confused about how to price. I never wanted to make big bucks out of breeding - I'm not sure it's even possible anymore. For me it's all about the learning experience of breeding the snakes, incubating the eggs, the joy of watching the neonates hatch and then raising them into hungry, healthy hatchies. I intended to set my prices lower than average to reflect my novice status, but I don't want to be undercutting anyone either. 

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what is a fair way to price for new breeders without causing a crash in the market?



wokka said:


> You dont have to breed snakes to gain a reputation. Participation in herp societies, forums and the like show potential buyer what sort of person you are and the extent of your knowledge.



Good point. Gulp! After 1367 posts I probably have some kind of reputation already.


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## waruikazi (Jan 1, 2012)

You're thinking about it waaaay too much. Don't worry about the other sellers, they aren't going to worry about you!

Set a price that you think is fair and see how you go.



Renenet said:


> I get you. I've got no problem with putting in the hard work, it's just that after reading Graffix's post I'm a bit confused about how to price. I never wanted to make big bucks out of breeding - I'm not sure it's even possible anymore. For me it's all about the learning experience of breeding the snakes, incubating the eggs, the joy of watching the neonates hatch and then raising them into hungry, healthy hatchies. I intended to set my prices lower than average to reflect my novice status, but I don't want to be undercutting anyone either.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what is a fair way to price for new breeders without causing a crash in the market?
> 
> ...


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## Renenet (Jan 1, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> You're thinking about it waaaay too much.



You're probably right. I have a poor habit of doing that.


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## zulu (Jan 1, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> You're thinking about it waaaay too much. Don't worry about the other sellers, they aren't going to worry about you!
> 
> Set a price that you think is fair and see how you go.



Thats how it goes,breeders before you have already lined their pockets,not like theyve done you a community service or something,you owe them nothing theyve left you the slops.


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## cement (Jan 1, 2012)

Renenet said:


> I get you. I've got no problem with putting in the hard work, it's just that after reading Graffix's post I'm a bit confused about how to price. I never wanted to make big bucks out of breeding - I'm not sure it's even possible anymore. For me it's all about the learning experience of breeding the snakes, incubating the eggs, the joy of watching the neonates hatch and then raising them into hungry, healthy hatchies. I intended to set my prices lower than average to reflect my novice status, but I don't want to be undercutting anyone either.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what is a fair way to price for new breeders without causing a crash in the market?
> 
> .



If a clutch of stimmies crashes the market then we are all in big trouble!
Unless you breed something that has bells and whistles (and a twitch) you will probably be selling to newbies anyway. Going in a bit cheaper is fine, you may actually sell your snakes, learn a bit as you go, and not end up a slave to your ever burgeoning collection!

The best thing is to selectively breed what you think you can manage, If you put 4 pairs together and end up with 80 -100 eggs all of a sudden you need more room in the incubator and house, more egg tubs, more hatchling racks and tubs, more heating, more food more regularly, more water bowls, more cleaning gear, and a lot more time.
It IS work.... a different type, but still work. And if they are a bottom end snake, well good luck.


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## Mace699 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sammie and I are in a pickle about this very issue, we have for the firs time successfully bred a healthy clutch of MD which are due to hatch in just under a month now. we are of the opinion or snakes are absolutely beautiful, nothing that stands out in regards to patterns, nice markings and colours but would not say there are many pure MD's that look much different. bar maybe 2 or three i have seen on here occasionally they all look very similar. back to my point though im of the opinion that every one should own a MD the most placid snake anyone could ever ask for have never met an angry one yet. having said that price them to low although it doesn't bother me what we sell them for you dont want to price them so low it puts other breeders out, at the same time i dont want to price them so high that none of them will sell. i have seen them for sale for $50 or less if you buy more than one. i think personally at this price the people who are looking for a quick cheap deal will snap them up with little thought put into care or looking for the snake thats right for them. so back to my point what would a reasonable price i myself can say i would happily pay 150-200 for an established MD but what is your opinion.


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## Exotic_Doc (Jan 1, 2012)

I honestly dont understand why everyone wants to breed snakes now. Just sounds like the old ' Im going to let my dog have a litter so the kids can watch puppies being born'


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## mysnakesau (Jan 2, 2012)

Exotic_Doc said:


> I honestly dont understand why everyone wants to breed snakes now. Just sounds like the old ' Im going to let my dog have a litter so the kids can watch puppies being born'



that is a nicer excuse than thinking you're going to make a fortune breeding and selling snakes.


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## feathergrass (Jan 2, 2012)

being new to reps and having read hungrily heaps and heaps of stuff i have decided i only wanted 1 beardie not two cos i didnt want them to breed although i wouldve loved for Buddha to have a friend.have changed my mind about future goals too.My next rep will be a childs cos its small but my future end goal is to own a green tree python because i personally think that they are the MOST beautiful snake ever.i dont want to bred any reps i want and will have three reps ( snakes have to wait til i move out of home as my mother is terrified of reps and is only just handling having a beardie in the house lol.
BUTas with the Beardie i WILL buy my chosen type of snake as a hatchy ( personally i think they grow to know you and trust you). and i will have their homes set up for months BEFORE i settle on where and whom and how i buy them off regardless of the prices..in all honnesty unless my beardie or future snakey come up to me and say * for gods sake i need to get laid* or * hells bells my biological clock is ticking let me have babies* they wont ever see or meet another of their kind as i know i wouldnt be able to sell their babies cos i would fall in love with them all and be more likely to think about selling my teenager..i think price of an animal doesnt matter as slong as what they buyer realises you get what you pay for whether its a pure bargin on beautiful creature from a reputable place or ripped off from a reputable place or a bargin or ripped off from a not so reputable place buying and selling is a rick no matter what you buy just cos you pay say 3k for a nice looking creature does not mean its garunteed to have no defects...we paid a helll of a lot for a pure white german shepard darn think had mental issues and went slowly insane then got a white one from the pound with no papers and she was the most beautiful creature ever not sure i had a point oh yeah i did has anyone asked the creatures if they wanna get laid get fat look like they wanna burst and then have their kids taken off them?


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## Waterrat (Jan 2, 2012)

Renenet, if you only want to breed snakes for the experience, why not to approach your local Zoos, there are several in the Cairns region, and breed for them. I know for a fact that CTZ needs to breed GTPs to sustain their collection and display, maybe they need other species too. You breed them, keep a few for yourself if you want to and then give them the rest. No dramas with marketing, dealing with tyrekickers. Just make sure you make a sound arrangement with them, nothing like "maybe" or "we shell see after you bred them", easy to understand MOU.


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## graffix (Jan 2, 2012)

Renenet said:


> I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what is a fair way to price for new breeders without causing a crash in the market?



The simple answer is the fair current price that reflects the quality of the offspring and also takes into account the breeders knowledge and service provided.

To build a good reputation you have to be able to handle any issues that may arise right from conditioning your breeding animals right through to after sales support. It only takes one "customer" to have an issue and the breeder either not be willing or able to offer decent advice and any reputation has gone down the toilet.

Regardless of price, if the breeding animals are not of decent quality then they should not be bred. Look at the top breeders and you will see that a big part of their continued success is the quality of their lines, solid knowledge base and the fact they stand behind their animals. 2 out of 3 just isn't close enough.

Personally, if the market is flooded with a species of pretty good quality I won't put my animals at risk or through the stress of breeding in the vein hope I will find owners for the offspring unless I am 100% sure the offspring produced by my animals is of equal or better quality than is often available.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jan 3, 2012)

This price issue comes up every so often & mostly this time of year when things are slow & people have spent thier money.
It is a simple matter of (yes) supply & demand. This year everyone might want Stimmies, next year BHPs are the fad. The economy also has an effect.
If you are a pet owner & just have a few that does not matter. If you are a hobbiest breeder then sure you want to make some sort of return on your investment. If you have several breeding pairs apropriatley housed, this will cost you abit to set up, maintain & feed & yes time is money also.
Now if you are a business, then you want to & need to make a profit otherwise you go broke.
Now for some of the name calling in this thread & who has made the most money & who has put into the hobby or not is totally irrelevant.
Personally I think it very hipocritical of some to throw stones.
I have looked up to some of those people that have been in the riight spot or adventurous enough to take the next step & produce a thriving business or just to bring something new to our hobby. Lets face it that is what most people want & strive to do is something better or new, without it we are just flat.
What about the magasines & books, is that just for money as well or do you consider that a contribution to the hobby.

I think that you should all get of your high horse or pedistal & rethink the whole situation.
If someone wants to breed snakes & sell them fo $50 What the heck, let them go. You will find that they won't do this for long. There are many steps to the future of our hobby & people will soon learn this or leave. Move on or get left behind.

Cheers
Ian


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jan 3, 2012)

Mace699 said:


> Sammie and I are in a pickle about this very issue, we have for the firs time successfully bred a healthy clutch of MD which are due to hatch in just under a month now. we are of the opinion or snakes are absolutely beautiful, nothing that stands out in regards to patterns, nice markings and colours but would not say there are many pure MD's that look much different. bar maybe 2 or three i have seen on here occasionally they all look very similar. back to my point though im of the opinion that every one should own a MD the most placid snake anyone could ever ask for have never met an angry one yet. having said that price them to low although it doesn't bother me what we sell them for you dont want to price them so low it puts other breeders out, at the same time i dont want to price them so high that none of them will sell. i have seen them for sale for $50 or less if you buy more than one. i think personally at this price the people who are looking for a quick cheap deal will snap them up with little thought put into care or looking for the snake thats right for them. so back to my point what would a reasonable price i myself can say i would happily pay 150-200 for an established MD but what is your opinion.



I paid $50 for my first snake, a MD, and she is my favourite snake and gets the exact same care as our other snakes which have cost 200-300...


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## mysnakesau (Jan 3, 2012)

How many people selling pythons for quick money offer on-going help for their buyers. People can chose to buy a cheap one and be faced with a no-contact relationship with their seller, or they could chose to pay more for it from a reputable person and know they can call them for help any time in the future. Some cheapies may offer this service, but out of those who are just breeding to sell to make money, how many of them really care to look after the animals properly. Obviously they know enough to get them to breed, and hatch eggs but these type of people would tell newbies anything to make themselves look good - feed it live, doesn't need this, has to have that, and the newbies have nothing but trouble with their new snake.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 3, 2012)

That's the point though Kathy, not everyone that sells things cheap is like that. Some are yes, but not all. I have seen people on this very forum that produce spectacular snakes and are highly regarded by the community sell things cheap on occasion. As someone else said, cheap doesn't always mean nasty.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jan 3, 2012)

mysnakesau said:


> How many people selling pythons for quick money offer on-going help for their buyers. People can chose to buy a cheap one and be faced with a no-contact relationship with their seller, or they could chose to pay more for it from a reputable person and know they can call them for help any time in the future. Some cheapies may offer this service, but out of those who are just breeding to sell to make money, how many of them really care to look after the animals properly. Obviously they know enough to get them to breed, and hatch eggs but these type of people would tell newbies anything to make themselves look good - feed it live, doesn't need this, has to have that, and the newbies have nothing but trouble with their new snake.




I was very lucky with that, I only got mine so cheap due to the fact that the breeder wanted to make room for more snakes. He offered after care advice and fortunately, i didnt need any..


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jan 3, 2012)

The other thing that I would like to piont out is that not everyone wants a snake/s for breeding.
My eldest duaughter got me excited about snakes when she first got hers. My wife & her got me one for my birthday & it just went from there.
I used to breed a lot of parrots which yes we would make money on & expand our breeding stock & use the extra money also to take the wife & kids on a yearly holiday which we all thoroughly enjoyed. When we moved back to Emerald with some birds in hand, the demand was not there so we sold everything out at a loss. That's business.

Now the first pair that I got to breed where from a friend of a friend that lived in Townsville & were a pair of adult Carpet Pythons(just normals) & we negotiated price as the frieght cost was so high like $170 & I think we paid about $600 for the Pythons. They bred for me that same year & I was so excited & the female even incubated the eggs as I had no incubator.

How exciting was this!!!!! I think that she hatched about 30 & we sold at about $100 to $120 each. After feeding probably about $10 to $20 worth of pinkies down thier neck & many many hours feeding & handling them.
But still with all this & my great success, it inspired me to go further & spend that money on the next pair & so on.
So now I have a small breeders colection worth a bit. So do I want a return for my dollars & effort put in, I am damn sure I do,otherwise I may as well just have a few as pets. This how it all starts with the $50 snake or dragon.

Cheers
Ian

I laid out the bait, but no one has come to have a feed yet.

Yes I do have Jags & I am interested in my BHP breeding program.
So does that make anyone less or more desirable than another. It depends on what you want & what you can afford to do. 
Then there are the social aspects of the breeding. 

When the first white or what they called albino Cockatiel/Quorrion came out, most of them had bald heads/half a crest & whatever else. People still flocked to buy them as they where something different. When the right breeders got hold of them & bred them properly, they came back with full heads of feathers. 
The same goes for any of the other mutation types of birds/snakes/lizards etc.

So if my name is Simon be damned if I do & be damned if I don't.
Get your facts right & make a contribution to the hobby instead of putting **** talk on stupid forum.

Cheers
ian


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## kawasakirider (Jan 3, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> It sound very cute, doesn't it. I hear that from other sides of the industry too "we don't do it for the money, it's to support ....."
> We ain't all stupid.



Pretty much the same with all hobbies! Everyone says they are in it for the love and to some degree they would be, everyone has an agenda though. I don't know why people try to hide it, that's worse than admitting the $$ they get from doing something they enjoy is a pretty good combination. They must want people to think they're mother Theresa or something. The only exception is when people sell their stuff to break even or less, or when someone does something for mates rates.


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## Waterrat (Jan 4, 2012)

kawasakirider said:


> Pretty much the same with all hobbies! Everyone says they are in it for the love and to some degree they would be, everyone has an agenda though



Agenda or cover up ..... there is another side to it; in some states (if not most) making profit from selling protected wildlife is a no no, even if captive bred reptiles. So, I guess those who are making few bucks prefer not to talk about it. But the biggest devil is envy from withing the hobby and that's another reason why no one admits to financial success.


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## waruikazi (Jan 4, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Agenda or cover up ..... there is another side to it; in some states (if not most) making profit from selling protected wildlife is a no no, even if captive bred reptiles. So, I guess those who are making few bucks prefer not to talk about it. But the biggest devil is envy from withing the hobby and that's another reason why no one admits to financial success.



The green eyed monster is everywhere in this hobby.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jan 5, 2012)

You all need to wake up to yourselves & shake your so importance.
A snake or reptile is worth as much today as it was yesterday or last year & that is the price that people are prepaired to pay for that economy or that season. Do not dought it the price has fallen very signifinately for as example GTP or RSP & that will keep falling until it meets the market.
I don't know how anyone that could afford to buy GTPs at extroadinary prices & then expect to sell them 2 - 3 years later at the same. This is not how it works , you all know the facts & figures so why bring it up in an arguement. This is so much BULL.
Cheers
Ian


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## Waterrat (Jan 6, 2012)

Sorry Ian but you're not making much sense. You're saying: "_A snake or reptile is worth as much today as it was yesterday or last year_" and then you go on: "_I don't know how anyone that could afford to buy GTPs at extroadinary prices & then expect to sell them 2 - 3 years later at the same_". A bit of contradiction there?

"_This is not how it works , you all know the facts & figures so why bring it up in an arguement. This is so much BULL_." Thanks for the advice but this is not an argument, it's a discussion and had you left out the "_This is so much BULL_", we could call it a civilised discussion. How come you know it all and we don't?


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## snakehandler (Jan 6, 2012)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> A snake or reptile is worth as much today as it was yesterday or last year & that is the price that people are prepaired to pay for that economy or that season.
> Cheers
> Ian


WR, read the whole paragraph....its the same thing I said at the start...an animal is only worth what a person is willing to pay for it....prices have dropped because people cant move high end animals as quickly as the cheaper animals.


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## Waterrat (Jan 6, 2012)

For Christ sake, don't mention "supply & demand" again. It will give me heart attack. I can read and I understand the situation, why are people parroting the same thing over and over again? 
Actually, .... an animal in not worth what a person is willing to pay for it. It's worth what it's worth to the breeder. Do I have to sell you an animal just because you say what it's worth? No! I will keep it and sell it to someone else. Just because some people are on a shoestring budged, doesn't mean the whole nation is. I don't think Ian is quite in the picture.

cheers


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Jan 6, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> For Christ sake, don't mention "supply & demand" again. It will give me heart attack. I can read and I understand the situation, why are people parroting the same thing over and over again?
> Actually, .... an animal in not worth what a person is willing to pay for it. It's worth what it's worth to the breeder. Do I have to sell you an animal just because you say what it's worth? No! I will keep it and sell it to someone else. Just because some people are on a shoestring budged, doesn't mean the whole nation is. I don't think Ian is quite in the picture.
> 
> cheers



Yes Michael you are right, YOU don't have to sell me an animal or anything at a price less than you want, But I don't have to buy either.
It is the simple facts of life (supply & demand) lol.
Anything is only worth what people are prepaired to pay. Lets say you breed 20 GTPs or whatever snake & if you want Say $5000 for them, yes there might be some people buy at this price, so you have sold say 5. Well & good, you can keep the others if you want & keep advertising or grow them up or whatever, But if the other 15 don't sell then what?

It is no different to the car salesman that has had a car sitting on the lot for 12 months & can't sell it, He will sell it to whoever for a cheaper price to move it & get rid of it as it is costing him time & money.

Now as for the mud slinging on other people that have put a lot of thier life into this hobby we should be ashamed.

Cheers
Ian


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## hrafna (Jan 6, 2012)

i plan to breed some mds when i feel ready to try breeding, when i do i will sell the animals for what i feel is a reasonable price, if someone is selling for $50 an animal but i feel like selling for $150 i won't lower my price to match them! likewise, if i am selling for $200 and others are selling for $300 then i am not going to raise my price to suit. infact i will probably offer a few to the ahs for their annual general meeting. bottom line is this i am wanting to do this for a learning experience and will only do things that i am able to handle (breeding 1 pair instead of 5 pairs) and any money that i make will go into providing for the animals i keep, expanding my interests within the hobby. if someone wants to say i am doing something wrong or judge me for my actions, well their opinion doesn't matter i am doing this for my enjoyment not theirs and certainly not to get rich quick!


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## Waterrat (Jan 6, 2012)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> Yes Michael you are right, YOU don't have to sell me an animal or anything at a price less than you want, But I don't have to buy either.
> It is the simple facts of life (supply & demand) lol.
> Anything is only worth what people are prepaired to pay. Lets say you breed 20 GTPs or whatever snake & if you want Say $5000 for them, yes there might be some people buy at this price, so you have sold say 5. Well & good, you can keep the others if you want & keep advertising or grow them up or whatever, But if the other 15 don't sell then what?
> 
> ...




Ian, you would be surprised how many people are willing to pay a good (not over the top) dollar for good quality snake and A1 service. Don't judge the world from your own platform.

PS. I don't understand your last sentence at all.


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