# Scaleless adders



## Herpetology (May 15, 2021)

First I’ve heard of these (IMO quite ugly)
Anyone got any info on these guys? Seem to be a couple breeders still trying to crack them and make their mutation “strong”


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## Friller2009 (May 16, 2021)

I agree with you, i think they’re quite ugly.
The cool part about Australian adders is the scales. It just doesn’t make sense, it’s not natural. If we need to release adders back into the wild because of say a disease killed all of them off, and we only had scaleless adders, we can’t release them into the wild. It’s the same thing with Gouldian Finch. We have bred so many unnatural colours and morphs that the natural form (the same as wild gouldian finches) is rare and we cannot release them to save the endangered species. The same goes for rainbow fish. ANGFA (myself included) hate hybrids. This is also why I don’t like unnatural and unnecessary snake morphs like, carpondro and crossing things like bredli’s carpet with diamond pythons. Also, why are we breeding the *Black head* out of the black headed python? 
In my opinion we just have to stop being selfish and just keep what nature has given us.


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## Herpetology (May 16, 2021)

Friller2009 said:


> If we need to release adders back into the wild because of say a disease killed all of them off, and we only had scaleless adders, we can’t release them into the wild.


That’s a very big what if... why would scaleless adders be all we have???


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## Friller2009 (May 16, 2021)

Herptology said:


> That’s a very big what if... why would scaleless adders be all we have???


It’s a scenario that is happening in America with many snakes, so i am just putting it out there.


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## Sdaji (May 16, 2021)

Scaless Adders have been around for decades. Unfortunately they're quite prone to problems and don't tend to thrive. I think they're brilliant, I love scaleless snakes, but because this particular mutation seems prone to issues I've never worked with them.

The argument of replenishing wild Adder populations etc is just silly. Every population, every locality (thousands upon thousands of them) is different. Virtually no captive Adders would be appropriate for restocking wild populations, and for this to actually be relevant, a captive population would need to be carefully established with a large number of collected animals and then maintained very carefully to maintain genetic integrity and heterogeneity. To my knowledge, no such captive population of Death Adders, or any Australian snake of long term hobbyist origin for that matter, exists. Virtually no Australian snake you can buy as a captive bred animal would be particuparly suitable for release into the wild under almost any circumstances. Even the very few cases of documented locality pure populations in captivity become unsuitable after a small number of generations (long story but you can ask the question in another thread if you're sufficiently curious).

This is not the purpose of captive breeding or captive populations. Hobbyists keep and breed animals almost exclusively for their own enjoyment, and any conservation value comes from people having positive exposure to snakes and wanting to protect their wild counterparts.

I haven't worked with scaleless Adders so I'm not entirely sure how frail they are, which means I'm a bit agnostic over whether to hope for them to be worked on by someone able to give them what they need to continue, or to see them fade out of existence for their own good. As it is, I lean towards the former.


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## Herpetology (May 16, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Scaless Adders have been around for decades. Unfortunately they're quite prone to problems and don't tend to thrive. I think they're brilliant, I love scaleless snakes, but because this particular mutation seems prone to issues I've never worked with them.
> 
> The argument of replenishing wild Adder populations etc is just silly. Every population, every locality (thousands upon thousands of them) is different. Virtually no captive Adders would be appropriate for restocking wild populations, and for this to actually be relevant, a captive population would need to be carefully established with a large number of collected animals and then maintained very carefully to maintain genetic integrity and heterogeneity. To my knowledge, no such captive population of Death Adders, or any Australian snake of long term hobbyist origin for that matter, exists. Virtually no Australian snake you can buy as a captive bred animal would be particuparly suitable for release into the wild under almost any circumstances. Even the very few cases of documented locality pure populations in captivity become unsuitable after a small number of generations (long story but you can ask the question in another thread if you're sufficiently curious).
> 
> ...


do u know of any issues that come from scaleless mutations in general? besides weak genetics when breeding, causing them to die off


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## Friller2009 (May 16, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Scaless Adders have been around for decades. Unfortunately they're quite prone to problems and don't tend to thrive. I think they're brilliant, I love scaleless snakes, but because this particular mutation seems prone to issues I've never worked with them.
> 
> The argument of replenishing wild Adder populations etc is just silly. Every population, every locality (thousands upon thousands of them) is different. Virtually no captive Adders would be appropriate for restocking wild populations, and for this to actually be relevant, a captive population would need to be carefully established with a large number of collected animals and then maintained very carefully to maintain genetic integrity and heterogeneity. To my knowledge, no such captive population of Death Adders, or any Australian snake of long term hobbyist origin for that matter, exists. Virtually no Australian snake you can buy as a captive bred animal would be particuparly suitable for release into the wild under almost any circumstances. Even the very few cases of documented locality pure populations in captivity become unsuitable after a small number of generations (long story but you can ask the question in another thread if you're sufficiently curious).
> 
> ...


Sorry, I now realise the stupidity of my argument. I am tired and should probably go to sleep. Sorry.


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## kankryb (May 16, 2021)

Here in europe people breeds a lot of scaleless snakes and lizards and if you like that sort of thing, fine by me but their skin needs care all the time they often have health problems needs different setup and care


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## Sdaji (May 17, 2021)

kankryb said:


> Here in europe people breeds a lot of scaleless snakes and lizards and if you like that sort of thing, fine by me but their skin needs care all the time they often have health problems needs different setup and care


I've often wondered if scaleless Death Adders are not actually weak, but just have sloughing issues or something because people aren't keeping them properly. I always wanted to work with them but it was always a case of only the runt of the litter being available at some insane price, so I never bought any.

I've found Adders to generally be extremely easy to keep and breed, including lines/types which other people consider to be very problematic.


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## Friller2009 (May 17, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> I've often wondered if scaleless Death Adders are not actually weak, but just have sloughing issues or something because people aren't keeping them properly. I always wanted to work with them but it was always a case of only the runt of the litter being available at some insane price, so I never bought any.
> 
> I've found Adders to generally be extremely easy to keep and breed, including lines/types which other people consider to be very problematic.


I love adders, i always have but it’s really hard for us in NSW to keep adders. I think that the species list for nsw is good, but it definitely needs to be looked into.


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## Herpetology (May 17, 2021)

Friller2009 said:


> I love adders, i always have but it’s really hard for us in NSW to keep adders. I think that the species list for nsw is good, but it definitely needs to be looked into.


In what way is it hard? Husbandry? Or licensing?


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