# INTERGRADES - Your Thoughts



## sxc_celly (May 3, 2007)

Hi guys! im opening this thread to find out what are your opinions on intergrades like coastal x diamonds? Do not tell me this has been discussed before, i know it has. Cant wait to hear your thoughts!


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## stary boy (May 3, 2007)

its been discussed before


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## sxc_celly (May 3, 2007)

lol i told u not to tell me that! lol. I know theres new members now, and some ppl didnt put an opinion last time. Just want people thoughts on them, breeding them, if ppl actually buy hatchlings, if they should exist or not, just ppls thoughts! Thanks!


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## stary boy (May 3, 2007)

they shoudlnt exsist and if for some stupid reason they are bred they should be no more then $10 each 

IMO


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## cyclamen (May 3, 2007)

i agree with maddy..they should NOT exist.... may as well cross a dog with a cat


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## MrBredli (May 3, 2007)

Natural intergrades and hybrids (eg. coastal x diamond) are two completely different things.


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## Twiggz (May 3, 2007)

I'm with MrBredli- they are completely different.
Intergrades are naturally occuring occuring.......hybrids are mongrels. 
I like neither.


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## bigguy (May 3, 2007)

What do you mean should they exist or not. Us humans have no say in the matter. They are natually occurring and are the missing links as one sub species turns into another due to climatic changes or geographical barriers.

The Coastal Diamond intergrades are commonly bred in captivity, and even though they regulary look very close to Diamonds are far more hardier and make easier pets to keep. In NSW they even have their own species ID number


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## stary boy (May 3, 2007)

they still stink natural or intentional


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## grimbeny (May 3, 2007)

Natural integrades r fine, but they most certainly r not the evil hybrids ie diamond X coastals.


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## MrBredli (May 3, 2007)

stary boy said:


> they still stink natural or intentional


 
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.


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## stary boy (May 3, 2007)

I know i dont in comparison to most people on here. But i know better then to breed mongrals... and I dont agree with poeple that do


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## MrBredli (May 3, 2007)

Intergrades are not mongrels; they occur naturally. They are just as natural as Diamond Pythons, Jungle Carpets or Darwin Carpets.


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## stary boy (May 3, 2007)

are there poeple out there who wild catch them and breed themor sell them off as pure?

Im sure there is... Thats what i have a problem with. Not the snake itself but the people dealing with it. As long as there is hybrids/intergrades people will continue to not get what they paid for.


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## MrBredli (May 3, 2007)

There are people who own naturally occuring intergrades, for example Port Macquarie Carpets, who breed them and sell them as exactly what they are, Port Macquarie Carpets. It would be very hard to pass off a Port Mac Carpet as a Diamond.


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## sweethips12 (May 3, 2007)

if it accurs naturaly i think its fine, and this is just my opinion, but breeding them in captivity just doesnt seem right to me, its like crossing 2 different types of birds or fish or something like that. jmo.


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## stary boy (May 3, 2007)

Not for all the novice people buying them... chances are they will believe anything they are told. Which from what i have seen is wrong 9 times out of 10. I guess we all have our own opinions, be yours that it may, I just dont have to agree with it


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## WeLovePythons (May 3, 2007)

stary boy said:


> I know i dont in comparison to most people on here. But i know better then to breed mongrals... and I dont agree with poeple that do


 
Don't take this the wrong way but you like many many other herpers are truly uninformed about intergrades. Firstly for some reason people automatically ascociate the terms "Intergrade" and "Hybrid" with coastal and Diamonds?? They all seem to forget about the overlap of different localities of carpets. Secondly I can garuntee that I could show some Intergrades/Hybrids that no one would ever pick as being Intergrades/Hybrids. 

So basically I think that while it comes down to personal choice I think that in all fairness those of you who say that they shouldn't be should first look at some of the ones around. I personally like intergrades/Hybrids and have seen some amazing looking ones and as for cost??? Well it all comes down again to personal choice as to how much you are willing to sped o any herp be they Intergrades/Hybrids or pures. 

For instance I sold off a nine foot male diamond in prime condition some years ago for $250 because I don't find diamonds all that nice while others would say they are the only snake to have.


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## Trev72 (May 3, 2007)

What are your opinons on Atherton Jungles x Palmerston


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## WeLovePythons (May 3, 2007)

Trev72 said:


> What are your opinons on Atherton Jungles x Palmerston


 

Hey Trev, Just wondering who this question was for or was it an open one? I personally have to see the animal in question before I passed judgement. 

It's funny how people accept hybrids in canines, felines, Horses, and bovines but not in herps? I mean we eat beef from hybrids bred for better beef production. We bet on horses bred for racing and people breed and love dogs such as the labradoodle, or any of the ????doodles. 


Just a thought


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## Scleropages (May 3, 2007)

If two things can breed together so be it.

oh crap my mealworms have escaped 

(no they really did, they just got knocked over)


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## pavlova (May 3, 2007)

I don't want ppl to have ago at me with my opinion but it is only MY OPINION
I don't see anything wrong with hybrids/intergrades, its no different to crossing a labrador with a poodle and you have a designer breed, aren't they a hybrid too, the crossing of two breeds.
I personally own one and i have attached a pic too for you guys to see. She is beautiful in my eyes. Many ppl on this site and other sites own hybrids/intergrades strictly as a pet.
BASICALLY I LIKE THEM


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## Scleropages (May 3, 2007)

pavlova said:


> I don't want ppl to have ago at me with my opinion but it is only MY OPINION
> I don't see anything wrong with hybrids/intergrades, its no different to crossing a labrador with a poodle and you have a designer breed, aren't they a hybrid too, the crossing of two breeds.
> I personally own one and i have attached a pic too for you guys to see. She is beautiful in my eyes. Many ppl on this site and other sites own hybrids/intergrades strictly as a pet.
> BASICALLY I LIKE THEM


 

Cute snakey pav!!!


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## MrBredli (May 3, 2007)

pavlova said:


> I don't want ppl to have ago at me with my opinion but it is only MY OPINION
> I don't see anything wrong with hybrids/intergrades, its no different to crossing a labrador with a poodle and you have a designer breed, aren't they a hybrid too, the crossing of two breeds.
> I personally own one and i have attached a pic too for you guys to see. She is beautiful in my eyes. Many ppl on this site and other sites own hybrids/intergrades strictly as a pet.
> BASICALLY I LIKE THEM


 
IMO crossing a poodle with a labrador is just as bad. If people keep doing it, in 50 years time it will be practically impossible to buy a pure bred labrador or a pure bred poodle. That's exactly what's going to happen with our pythons if the hybridisation doesn't stop.


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## TANN-MANN (May 3, 2007)

I can't see anything wrong with it, if it wasn't ment to be then it would be impossible to breed, its nature, its like saying...(i'm not being racist here) black people cant have kids with white people.
its silly to say its not allowed, when it doesn't cause harm, OMG we might end up having snakes with legs....if anything its creating a larger gene pool.
by the way Pav, real nice snake, complete stunner


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## Trev72 (May 3, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> Hey Trev, Just wondering who this question was for or was it an open one? I personally have to see the animal in question before I passed judgement.
> 
> It's funny how people accept hybrids in canines, felines, Horses, and bovines but not in herps? I mean we eat beef from hybrids bred for better beef production. We bet on horses bred for racing and people breed and love dogs such as the labradoodle, or any of the ????doodles.
> 
> ...




It was an open question as I am keen to find out as I want to try and breed my snakes and I have always loved Jungle Carpets. Palmerstons are quite a bit more expensive to buy so I guess you can see why I have only 1 but saying that I wouldn't trade my Atherton for anything she has a great temprement unlike my Palmerston. 

I have seen snakes hatch out of eggs before in real life at a friends place and it was amazing. I wish to experiance that myself.


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## mcloughlin2 (May 3, 2007)

pavlova said:


> I don't want ppl to have ago at me with my opinion but it is only MY OPINION
> I don't see anything wrong with hybrids/intergrades, its no different to crossing a labrador with a poodle and you have a designer breed, aren't they a hybrid too, the crossing of two breeds.
> I personally own one and i have attached a pic too for you guys to see. She is beautiful in my eyes. Many ppl on this site and other sites own hybrids/intergrades strictly as a pet.
> BASICALLY I LIKE THEM


 
Poodle x labrador does not produce a hybrid. They are the same species.  So there is no comparison.


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## waruikazi (May 3, 2007)

I really didn't want to get into this thread but i am going to. 

You can't compare dogs with snakes! Dogs are all the same species, crossing two does not make a hybrid or integrade. The same as a greek and an african having a baby, it is not a hybrid/integrade.


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## waruikazi (May 3, 2007)

mcloughlin2 said:


> Poodle x labrador does not produce a hybrid. They are the same species.  So there is no comparison.



Dang you gotta be quick


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## mcloughlin2 (May 3, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Dang you gotta be quick


 
Great minds think alike........:lol:


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## TANN-MANN (May 3, 2007)

Arn't all carpets/diamonds jsut subspecies of each other meaning they are really jsut different phenotypic morphs dues to selective evolution for addapting to different habitats, i mean thay all are _Morelia spilota_


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## Scleropages (May 3, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> I really didn't want to get into this thread but i am going to.
> 
> You can't compare dogs with snakes! Dogs are all the same species, crossing two does not make a hybrid or integrade. The same as a greek and an african having a baby, it is not a hybrid/integrade.


 

Arnt all morela the same species? , same as goldfish.


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## zard (May 3, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> IMO crossing a poodle with a labrador is just as bad. If people keep doing it, in 50 years time it will be practically impossible to buy a pure bred labrador or a pure bred poodle. That's exactly what's going to happen with our pythons if the hybridisation doesn't stop.



I agree with MrB
each to their own but for me i would rather purchase a purebred from a reputable breeder. I fail to see why anyone would want to do it or buy one let alone buy one and then breed from it?
In the instance of diamonds, they have specific needs different from other snakes, do we know how this cross breeding affects their long term health? As for an intergrade at least those particular snakes have lived and come together in the same local so their particular requirements are compatable, great the begining of a new sub species. Why force or speed up a natural process?
The other concern for me is those that sell their cross breeds to the unsuspecting buyer, how down the track can anyone be sure what they are told they are purchasing is infact pure?


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## Trev72 (May 3, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> I really didn't want to get into this thread but i am going to.
> 
> You can't compare dogs with snakes! Dogs are all the same species, crossing two does not make a hybrid or integrade. The same as a greek and an african having a baby, it is not a hybrid/integrade.



I've only kept snakes for a bit over a year can you please explain whats the difference between two different types of dog and two types of python so I understand where your coming from


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## waruikazi (May 3, 2007)

Nrearly all "breeds" of domestic dogs have been line bred from one species. Snakes have not, you find wild naturally occuring diamonds, coastals etc you don't find naturally occuring poodles or great danes


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## zard (May 3, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Nrearly all "breeds" of domestic dogs have been line bred from one species. Snakes have not, you find wild naturally occuring diamonds, coastals etc you don't find naturally occuring poodles or great danes




wow really? oh ok you are right there are no naturally occuring poodles or danes but what about dingos? coyotees? wolves? are these not naturally occuring dogs? so maybe for arguments sake we use these in out examples rather than using any 'pure' purpously bred dog for simplicity.


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## sxc_celly (May 3, 2007)

How can dogs be all the same species though? They simply cant be, they are TOO different, like a great dane and a chiuaiua are the same species? All morelia Species are the same diff locals then?


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## waruikazi (May 3, 2007)

zard said:


> wow really? oh ok you are right there are no naturally occuring poodles or danes but what about dingos? coyotees? wolves? are these not naturally occuring dogs? so maybe for arguments sake we use these in out examples rather than using any 'pure' purpously bred dog for simplicity.



The devil is in the fine print my freind DOMESTIC dogs are all the same species. If you put a labrodor over an african wild dog that would make a hybrid. And SXC yes they are all the same species line bred from the one group of animals. That's what 10'000 years of line breeding can do.


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## TANN-MANN (May 3, 2007)

through hundreds of years of human selective breeding many subspecies of dog have evolved. wolves etc are different species of dog hence the interbreeding isn't reallt possible...i don't think anyway


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## mungus (May 3, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> I really didn't want to get into this thread but i am going to.
> 
> You can't compare dogs with snakes! Dogs are all the same species, crossing two does not make a hybrid or integrade. The same as a greek and an african having a baby, it is not a hybrid/integrade.



Same thoughts exactly.
I cant believe how much crap get thrown around about Natural Intergrade / Diamonds.
Same bloody snake.
How can you guarentee that your diamonds are 100% pure ??
Looks are'nt everything.


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## Australis (May 3, 2007)

You cant compare our NATIVE fauna with anything else, show some respect.


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## Rennie (May 3, 2007)

Can people please stop saying "intergrade/hybrid" and "intergrade/cross".
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!
The diamond/coastal intergrade is its own sub-species, thats what this thread was about, NOT HYBRIDS!

No wonder so many newbies think they are just crosses, look where this thread is going


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## junglepython2 (May 3, 2007)

Australis said:


> You cant compare our NATIVE fauna with anything else, show some respect.


 
Exactly, dogs have been bred for human purposes and are domesticated, thankfuly snakes aren't domesticated yet.....

There is nothing wrong with natural intergrades other then it makes it easier to sell hybrids as something they are not.


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## zard (May 3, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> The devil is in the fine print my freind DOMESTIC dogs are all the same species. If you put a labrodor over an african wild dog that would make a hybrid. And SXC yes they are all the same species line bred from the one group of animals. That's what 10'000 years of line breeding can do.



yes but you are just being pedantic, clearly the breed of dog were chosen for simplicity and to make point without the need to go back through hundreds and thousands of years of husbandry and i suppose if we do so for dogs who is to say that initially snakes accross the world did not all derive from the same basic stock, mutating into different forms to suit the conditions in the area they came to live. 
I have no problem with natural occurring intergrades, i don’t agree with people throwing two snakes together just to see what they come up with. As stated previously how can we guarantee there will be no issues with these animals down the track?


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## sxc_celly (May 3, 2007)

Well said Rennie!

I wonder if one day our snakes will have Registered papers to prove their purity lol


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## zard (May 3, 2007)

anyway why would anyone want to? IMO we have the best looking reptiles, how can you improve on perfection?


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## mungus (May 3, 2007)

Rennie said:


> Can people please stop saying "intergrade/hybrid" and "intergrade/cross".
> THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!
> The diamond/coastal intergrade is its own sub-species, thats what this thread was about, NOT HYBRIDS!
> 
> No wonder so many newbies think they are just crosses, look where this thread is going




How did we get into dogs on a herp site ???:shock:


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## TANN-MANN (May 3, 2007)

good point, dogs have nothing to do with this i apologise for my dog contribution. but on that note dogs were purpose bred for selective jobs. here we are talking about herps that are really not gunna round up the cattle or help a blind person across the street. and we are talking about a naturally occuring intergrade, so obviously no selective breeding for hybrids...back to the thread


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## sxc_celly (May 3, 2007)

LOL good question Mungus, and TANN-MANN no worries, youve made a good point!


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## TANN-MANN (May 3, 2007)

cheers SXC_celly, no more hijacking for me...oops my bad again lol:lol:


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## jack (May 3, 2007)

all breeding in captivity is selective by the breeder and bears no relation to what happens in the wild, therefore I don't care what people breed... i do care about people selling things by subterfuge to obtain more cash


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## nightowl (May 3, 2007)

Rennie said:


> Can people please stop saying "intergrade/hybrid" and "intergrade/cross".
> THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!
> The diamond/coastal intergrade is its own sub-species, thats what this thread was about, NOT HYBRIDS!
> 
> No wonder so many newbies think they are just crosses, look where this thread is going



Thank you Rennie!!  Someone that knows something about this!

hy·brid
*1. * _Genetics_ The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
*2. **a. * Something of mixed origin or composition.
*b. * Something, such as a computer or power plant, having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results.

*3. * A word whose elements are derived from different languages.


in·ter·grade
_intr.v._ *in·ter·grad·ed*, *in·ter·grad·ing*, *in·ter·grades* To merge into each other in a series of stages, forms, or types.
n. A transitional stage, form, or type

Some more info on hybrids...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid

The sooner people understand that intergrades are NOT hybrids the more accepted Port Mac Carpets will be. Port Mac Carpets are NOT a cross between coastals and diamonds, merely a locale specific carpet. 

I like Port Macs and I don't mind hybrids, as long as they are advertised and sold as hybrids.


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## learning snake man (May 3, 2007)

* cainine loopus is the first dog as are all dog breeds thay are all desendants of the WOLF all dog,s big small tall fat skinny silly smart are one dog and who care,s what happen,s if thay do cross thay have been adapting for thousands of yer,s allready and will take thousand,s more but by then we humans will have left this plannet dead and void by then and only the wind will blow the sand,s of time across the dead plannet earth /*


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## bigguy (May 3, 2007)

You actually get sick of this thread coming back month after month, and no one ever seems to listern, but I will try to sort this out again, specialy for the beginners.

Hybrids. Hybrids are not natually occurring animals, but are continally created by irresponsable keepers. This is were one species like a Diamond is bred to a Carpet for example. The young are just mongrels and this practice is ILLEGAL in most states of Australia. These are cross species.

Intergrades. For some reason people think intergrades have occurred natually in the wild were somehow, many years ago, a Diamond bred with a Carpet where their borders mixed. If you are in this group you are also wrong. 

Let the class begin. I will use the Carpet Python as it has the best known intergrades. The Eastern Carpet Python,(morelia spilota) according to DNA evidence is the same species wether it be the PNG, Top End, Cape York, Jungle, Coastal, Murray/Darling or Diamond. As the origional ancesters of this species moved into Australia and spread out around the eastern states, it has had to adapt to different climatic and geographical areas. The result of these changes have left us with the distinct subspecies that are listed above.

Nowhere in Australia is there a area where one subspecies just magically turned into the next. This was a suttle change, and in most areas it took many hundreds of kilometers for the changes to fully occur. These buffer zones between the 2 distinct sub species are known as the intergrade zones. 

The best known of these is found in mid coast NSW. Starting just north of Coffs Harbour the Coastal Carpet starts it's transformation into the Diamond Python which finally fully appears at around Newcastle and extends to just over the Vic border. When looking at morelia spilota found in the area from Coffs to Newcastle you can see they share both charactoristics. The closer to Coffs, the more they resemble the Carpet that they started from. The closer to Newcastle, the more they resemble the Diamond that they are slowly turning into. The prettiest I have seen in this area occurr around Port Macquarie, and IMO can be far prettier than any Diamond i have ever seen, as well as being far more hardier in Captivity

Even though morelia spilota are deemed the same species by DNA, each subspecies can still be identified by slight variations in the DNA. This also includes the intergrades which have been found to differ from their origionals. 

The best thing people can do to learn is to get off their computors, get into a car and travell around Australia and actually learn where you favourite species are found and to look a natual changes as they occur.


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## sxc_celly (May 3, 2007)

Very well said Bigguy


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## nightowl (May 3, 2007)

maybe a 'mod' can sticky some of this info so people can refer to it?

Edit; referring to bigguy's post


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## moosenoose (May 3, 2007)

That dog is stunning Learning_snake_man!!


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## waruikazi (May 4, 2007)

zard said:


> yes but you are just being pedantic, clearly the breed of dog were chosen for simplicity and to make point without the need to go back through hundreds and thousands of years of husbandry and i suppose if we do so for dogs who is to say that initially snakes accross the world did not all derive from the same basic stock, mutating into different forms to suit the conditions in the area they came to live.
> I have no problem with natural occurring intergrades, i don’t agree with people throwing two snakes together just to see what they come up with. As stated previously how can we guarantee there will be no issues with these animals down the track?



Nope not being pedantic. All domestic dogs are genetically the same. You could sooner campare dogs to goldfish and all the different morphs than to carpets pythons.


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## waruikazi (May 4, 2007)

TANN-MANN said:


> good point, dogs have nothing to do with this i apologise for my dog contribution. but on that note dogs were purpose bred for selective jobs. here we are talking about herps that are really not gunna round up the cattle or help a blind person across the street. and we are talking about a naturally occuring intergrade, so obviously no selective breeding for hybrids...back to the thread



Nah lets keep talking about dogs. Far more interesting than re-hashing old threads time and time again.


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## moosenoose (May 4, 2007)

I've got a Cavoodle - apparently he's classed as a breed.......of some sort! A designer dog!!...yeah that's what they call it!! A designer, not a mutt or bitza, but a designer!!  hehe

http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/2003/archives/2003/roadtests/dog_breeds/cavoodle

Although he did try and attack me once :lol:


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## waruikazi (May 4, 2007)

here's my mut heheheheh


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## zard (May 4, 2007)

bigguy said:


> You actually get sick of this thread coming back month after month, and no one ever seems to listern, but I will try to sort this out again, specialy for the beginners.
> 
> Hybrids. Hybrids are not natually occurring animals, but are continally created by irresponsable keepers. This is were one species like a Diamond is bred to a Carpet for example. The young are just mongrels and this practice is ILLEGAL in most states of Australia. These are cross species.
> 
> ...



so well said needed to be repeated methinks.


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## moosenoose (May 4, 2007)

He's a picture of my dog Teddy, he's a hybrid


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## nickamon (May 4, 2007)

Natural intergrades are fine with me, but hybrids are not.


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## dragon_tail (May 4, 2007)

Most snakes given the chance to select a partner out of masses in the wild will almost always go with their own species. Its only in an enclosed environment with only one option where MOST hybridisation happens. The coastal/diamond intergrade is naturally occuring more and more frequently at port maquarry and surrounds (overlapping range) by choice of the animals involved, there is no shortage of either species there! In my own little opinion this is not accidental, nor is it barstedisation! we are simply lucky enough to live in a period and a geographical location where we are able to watch nature birth a new species..... do you think there was ALWAYS hundreds if not thousands of species of python? 

sorry if this has been posted before, ui didnt really read all three pages, but all i want to say is:
who gives the authority to humans to question the process of nature? granted in a glass tank with no other choice or room to seperate hybridisation borders on peverse, but by the snakes own inbuilt natural selection mechanism in the open wild in an abundance of both species? i call that following a dilligent design.

another quick thought, perhaps strayed from the above? diamond desease! all you nature doco buffs will know that it wouldnt be the first time globally a species of any animal chose to intergrade instinctively for the benefit of a larger gene-pool, in 90% of these cases (that ive seen documented) the species of animal choosing to intergrade has an inherit desease- and intergrades as a survival mechenism! (see: weird nature, discovery channel)


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## little guy (May 4, 2007)

Are you telling me that my pythons should not exist you are the person that is wrong.
If you think that something that happens natually in the world should be gone .that sounds like hitler.And look what he did .I have used a natural intergrade to educate thousands of children over the year's with out my mungrel they would have not had the pleasure of feeling a snake in a safe environment. Give me a break you call you self a snake lover.
You can not cross a dog with a cat as nature wont let it happen 
you can cross carpet pythons cant you as they are all the same thing it is only a color change to cope with the environment they live in.
If you cross a horse with a donkey you get a mule. Mules cant reproduce carpets can funny that hey must just be that mungrel jean. 
I dont cross them but i do keep intergrades look them up you might learn something. 
And if you think my intergrade is wrong then we will agree to disagree.


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## dragon_tail (May 4, 2007)

if that was directed at me you didnt read my post!


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## little guy (May 4, 2007)

No dragon tail it was not aimed at you .


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## Bug collector (May 4, 2007)

i think theyre hot


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## Trev72 (May 4, 2007)

Ok to summerise my question earlier on if I bred a Atherton Jungle with a Palmerston Jungle would you guys consider them Hybrid, as they seem to have the same scientific name but in the example of Morelia Spilota it is considered hybrid so it that case the scientific names are ignored.


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## waruikazi (May 4, 2007)

Trev72 said:


> Ok to summerise my question earlier on if I bred a Atherton Jungle with a Palmerston Jungle would you guys consider them Hybrid, as they seem to have the same scientific name but in the example of Morelia Spilota it is considered hybrid so it that case the scientific names are ignored.



IMO you would have a non-locale specific jungle. But i'm not real good on jungles so i don't know how far apart Atherton table lands are and the Palmerston jungle, so who knows with further study they could become recognised as distinct sub species.


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## nightowl (May 4, 2007)

IMO, crossing 2 separate locale jungles is not hybridising, as they both have the same classification (Morelia spilota cheynei). However, they could not be classed as a locale specific jungle (obviously).

A hybrid is the result of crossing different species or SUB species ie, to cross a diamond (Morelia spilota spilota) with a coastal (Morelia spilota mcdowelli)... or a Jungle (Morelia spilota cheynei) with a diamond (Morelia spilota spilota) etc etc etc....


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## dragon_tail (May 4, 2007)

diamond/coastal is an intergrade.


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## Greebo (May 4, 2007)

dragon_tail said:


> diamond/coastal is an intergrade.


*sigh* No, it is not.A Diamond X Coastal is a hybrid.


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## swingonthespiral (May 4, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> IMO you would have a non-locale specific jungle. But i'm not real good on jungles so i don't know how far apart Atherton table lands are and the Palmerston jungle, so who knows with further study they could become recognised as distinct sub species.


 
all i know about the locale is that palmerston is the highway that runs through atherton so i'd say (only been in nth qld for a year but i dont think palmerston is actually a place plz correct me if im wrong) that they would naturally be closely related anyway....


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## moosenoose (May 4, 2007)

*FIGHT YOU MONKEYS FIGHT!!!!* :lol: :lol:

Let's face it, whether you agree or you don't agree, half the newbs out there don’t know whether they are buying a diamond or a jungle. Even to me some of the boundaries seem blurred, so what hope does a newcomer have?? ZERO! What will happen, and is happening in places that allow the practices of hybridization to occur is the creation of designer animals, and guess what? The market is loaded with them because they are proving popular to new hobbyists.

I hope the purer forms remain in plentiful supply, I honestly do, but I wouldn’t turn down an attractive hybrid based on an opinion that underlines cutting off ones nose to spite the face. In choosing to hack off that nose I have no doubt you’d be standing there feeling fantastic about yourself, but you will be pretty much alone. Times are changing, if they weren’t this topic wouldn’t exist


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## dragon_tail (May 4, 2007)

True True


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## WeLovePythons (May 4, 2007)

Rennie said:


> Can people please stop saying "intergrade/hybrid" and "intergrade/cross".
> THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!
> The diamond/coastal intergrade is its own sub-species, thats what this thread was about, NOT HYBRIDS!
> 
> No wonder so many newbies think they are just crosses, look where this thread is going


 
The end result is the same...If I put an Intergrade next to a hybrid are YOU going to be able to tell the difference?? The answer is NO. No one can that is the thing. So for the purpose of this thread they are the same. No one can complain or say anything about Integrades as they are a totally natural animal. As for dogs of two breeds not being Hybrids please explain how they aren't and then put your reasoning to Herps and see what you come up with. As for Labradoodles and all the others they are now a recognised "seperate" breed so there for seperate from Labradors and poodles. The idea that there will no longer be pure breed labrodors or similar because of cross breeding is ludicris as like herps there will always be those who only want pure strains. Oh and by the way unless you personally caught the original breeding herps how can anyone garuntee the pure lineage of any herps in captivity? All anyone has to go on is the word of the breeders from where they purchased their herps.


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## Serpant_Lady (May 4, 2007)

not a fan of the hybrids - althopugh i may like an individual snake or two i would never knowingly breed them. intergrades are a whole other ball game. If they naturally occur thats great but human influence is always a problem, such as selling inters as pure breeds. it happens a fair bit out there. i will always be a fan of breeding pure to the locality but these things sometimes cant be.

AND I HATE breeders messing with years of good dog genes and then flogging off labradoodles and the like - you may have a very good cute pet but I dont agree with what the breeders have done 
JMO


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## Greebo (May 4, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> The end result is the same...If I put an Intergrade next to a hybrid are YOU going to be able to tell the difference?? The answer is NO. No one can that is the thing. So for the purpose of this thread they are the same.



Just because they may look similar doesn't mean that the difference is insignificant. A Diamond and a Cubic Zirconian may look the same but they are not the same thing. It is important that people in our hobby know what these terms mean. They should not simply be casually dismissed as insignificant.


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## kelly (May 4, 2007)

Can't argue with a Mod


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## waruikazi (May 4, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> As for dogs of two breeds not being Hybrids please explain how they aren't and then put your reasoning to Herps and see what you come up with. As for Labradoodles and all the others they are now a recognised "seperate" breed so there for seperate from Labradors and poodles.



You are right they are classed as separate "Breeds" not species or sub-species. They are still considered the same species and therefore not a hybrid. They are a cross, nothing more nothing less. 

If you don't beleive me look it up.


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## Whisper2 (May 4, 2007)

opps sorry,
my point was already covered


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## PhilK (May 4, 2007)

For the zillionth time to those who don't seem to understand: 
*"As for dogs of two breeds not being Hybrids please explain how they aren't"*
ALL domestic dogs are the same SPECIES... A poodle, a labrador, a labradoodle, a great dane, wolf hound... ALL are _Canis familiaris. _So therefore crossing a POODLE and a BORDER COLLIE (both _C. familiaris_) is not a hybrid and therefore cannot be compared to a hybrid python.

If you wanted a hybrid dog, you would cross something like _C. familiaris_ with _C. lupus_ (wolf). These are two different species and therefore would produce a 'hybrid' (assuming they can infact interbreed)...

As for the '____doodles'.. They were originally created to let people with dog allergies own dogs, and that's great and I'm all for it, but everyone can agree, I think, that they got way out of hand!


Another thing... People refer to hybrids/intergrades/crosses (or whatever the hell) as 'freaks' yet if you want to buy an albino anything you need to shell out thousands of dollars. Food for thought.


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## junglepython2 (May 4, 2007)

An albino is neither a hybrid, intergrade or a cross


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## PhilK (May 4, 2007)

I was merely referring to the fact that an albino is a freak, and most people talking about hybirds/integrades/crosses are calling them freaks too.


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## WeLovePythons (May 4, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> You are right they are classed as separate "Breeds" not species or sub-species. They are still considered the same species and therefore not a hybrid. They are a cross, nothing more nothing less.
> 
> If you don't beleive me look it up.


 
Carpets and Diamonds are the same species as well so how can they be considered diefferent? The point am trying to make is that if we get to caught up in the whole argument of Intergrades/hybrids we loose sight of the question of what people think of the end result...The way I read it is that he originally wanted to know what we thought of them ? I take it as meaning the offspring which is why I said for this thread they are the same. I know the scientific and literal diffenrence between the two but that's a whole other thread lol.



Greebo said:


> Just because they may look similar doesn't mean that the difference is insignificant. A Diamond and a Cubic Zirconian may look the same but they are not the same thing. It is important that people in our hobby know what these terms mean. They should not simply be casually dismissed as insignificant.


 
You are missing the point here. Genetically, Physically and visually they are the same. If by chance I went out on a harvesters licence and collected a Diamond an Carpet from the same local and they had by chance had wild offspring a season before I caught them would there offspring be different if they bred again after collection? Do you see what I mean? I understand what you mean about letting others know the difference in terminology but shouldn't we make that in anothewr thread? Or even have a area where we list herp terms andtheir meanings for the new keepers? Just a thought


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## WeLovePythons (May 4, 2007)

Greebo said:


> *sigh* No, it is not.A Diamond X Coastal is a hybrid.


 
not if it occurs naturally lol


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## junglepython2 (May 4, 2007)

A diamond crossing with a coastal as such would occur extremely rarely in the wild, most intergrades come about from intergrades breeding with intergrades not a simple diamond coastal cross.


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## Greebo (May 4, 2007)

kelly said:


> Can't argue with a Mod



Just because I am a mod, doesn't mean I am right (even though I am in this case). People can argue against me as long as they don't resort to name calling or swearing. That's why it is called a discussion forum.


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## bigguy (May 4, 2007)

Welovepythons. Read my thread again, same goes to most of the others. A Diamond and a Carpet can never cross without the help of man. There is a small problem of a 400klm gap between the 2 species. If they do cross by human intervention, then they are a hybid sharing the same DNA markers of both parents. Intergrades are different and have their own DNA markers, which are different to hybrids. Greebo was indeed correct in what he stated.

Dragontail, I also suggest you read my thread again , because the way I read your comments you somehow still feel that both subspecies, as well as intergrades are found at Port Macquarie. Wrong, only intergrades are found in this area.

You can not compare natual species and sub species , such as snakes that we are talking about to man made designer species such as dogs. Most dog breeds are man made so please stop comparing them to natual species. They are 2 different subjects and show most people have no biological knowledge at all.

Even though I feel I fully explained what a intergrade is people are still using it with hybrid/cross. Just read above. You will find it a lot less confusing if you can never use those three words together. They have nothing in common whatsoever


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## buck (May 5, 2007)

Carefull you don't bruise your forehead Bob.


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## nightowl (May 5, 2007)

If this sub-species had have been given a proper name instead of 'intergrade' there wouldn't be people claiming Port Macs are "naturally crossed" pythons.


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## jham66 (May 5, 2007)

As a personal preference, I like purebred. Do with most animals. But If well documented and with the right intentions, honesty etc.. Intergrades can have their place, just not at my place...


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## Inkslinger (May 5, 2007)

TANN-MANN said:


> through hundreds of years of human selective breeding many subspecies of dog have evolved. wolves etc are different species of dog hence the interbreeding isn't reallt possible...i don't think anyway



Its is they are available in the states the "latest to have pet"
bit like Dingo crosses here


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## Veredus (May 5, 2007)

jham66 said:


> As a personal preference, I like purebred. Do with most animals. But If well documented and with the right intentions, honesty etc.. Intergrades can have their place, just not at my place...



Intergrades are a purebred species that are simply the link between one sub-species and another. Intergrade young are born from intergrade parents and have been for thousands of years. People seem to think it is just a hybrid that occurs in the wild but in truth they have occured because of natural change in the species from one region to another and they have existed for thousands of years as a perfectly sustainable interbreeding population.


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## Australis (May 5, 2007)

WeLovePythons said:


> You are missing the point here. Genetically, Physically and visually they are the same. If by chance I went out on a harvesters licence and collected a Diamond an Carpet from the same local and they had by chance had wild offspring a season before I caught them would there offspring be different if they bred again after collection?



They are NOT visually the same. :shock:, have you seen either Carpets or Diamonds in the wild? I have seen a good number of both, they look nothing alike.

Like others have suggested, get out there and see for yourself, you DONT get Carpets and Diamonds in the same area.


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## zard (May 5, 2007)

well i think i will take Bobs word on it all as he is a well known reputable breeder and keeper and has been for many years, imo his knowledge is from in the field and education not just throwing comments out there because he sees it a certain way.
It is a pity that this site has lost so many of the other keepers like Bob but hardly suprising, i figure they grew tired of hitting their heads on that wall. I know there are others here and i am sorry if you feel i am taking away from your expertese, i dont mean to do that it is just i respect Bobs knowledge.
Good on you Bob for sticking around and trying to educate those whom want to learn. 
Newbies (sorry bob im gunna drop you right in it here) if you do want a no BS difinitive answer to a question ask someone like Bob who actually knows what he is talking about.
IMO even the wiki has some questionable advice in it sadly due to the fact that some of the input is from opinion not knowledge.

anyway now i will back out of this thread and let you all continue to argue this extremly over discussed subject.


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## Retic (May 5, 2007)

If you actually knew Jungle_Freak you would realise he probably knows a 100 times more than you about reptiles in general, this subject actually isn't open to interpretation at all it is very black and white.


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## bigguy (May 5, 2007)

Welovepythons

If I see them in the flesh I can normally tell them apart with ease . When you have seen as many as I have its not hard at all. Most long term keepers that I know can also tell with ease. And i am talking Hybrids versus Intergrades. So I still back Greebos statement


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## Zanejb (May 5, 2007)

OK ill add my small input as im NOT an expert on this issue as for a long time ive stayed away from this subject as with some other threads i try to avoid it gets too heated as there are too many different points of view. ok here it is; the "intergrade" from what i gather is a natural accurance that has happened in the wild and has developed its own "bloodline" and really its own "sub species" ive seen a pic or 2 of natural intergrades and they look like a diamond that has banded white and the black has a green to purple tinge (this is only what ive seen in photos) however a "hybrid" on the other hand is a 1st generation captive CROSS! the snakes (generally diamonds and carpets) look alot like coastals with the yellow spots on the scales and look a hell of alot different. a natural intergrade would have most likely been the inland and diamond a long time a go right? (yes this is a question im not trying to state a fact as i said im no expert on this subject). This is all i know or how ive interpritted the information that ive gathered and id like to stay far away from this subject in the future! and i think that moderators should have this thread removed if it ever comes up again!


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## WeLovePythons (May 5, 2007)

I would like to apologise for my part in this thread going south. sxc_celly I would like to say sorry to you for taking your thread off direction. Greebo thankyou for deleting some posts. I think it was going in the wrong direction. Jungle and I have sorted out our differences between us as adults. not as 12 year olds lol. Sorry again


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## Greebo (May 5, 2007)

Ok. Everyone take a deep breath. We are all here because we love reptiles. Basically we are all on the same side. If people care to debate this topic further, please do so with out resorting to name calling.


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## nervous (May 5, 2007)

this is a stupid topic 
as it is like saying should 
white ppl be with black ppl
or ethnic ppl be with asian ppl

they should xsist as every living thing deserves to survive

cheers
ben.......


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## Rennie (May 6, 2007)

No, humans are all the same species, there are no different sub-species, just races.
Diamonds, coastals, intergrades, etc are different sub-species.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (May 6, 2007)

Yeh, my head hurts now, good on you bigguy for trying to make the people understand. Fully agree with what Zard said in his last post to.


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## dragon_tail (May 7, 2007)

i must be misinformed then i guess? but i would like some education on the pictures circulating (several of them, one even taken by a friend on a herp trip around aus) of a coastal entangled with a diamond CLEARLY breeding one particular photo is on a low branch of a tree, another is at the base of a different tree with different snakes (the two ive seen most recently). One of the two i know BEYOND DOUBT is at prt mac..... perhaps it is a carpet further down the evolutionary train as you describe it, mating with a diamond that has reached further in its morpheological progression? or is it a diamond breeding with a coastal? i dont really know, but i understand the confussion.


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## Retic (May 7, 2007)

Show us the photo's and we can discuss them. It's sounds a little like the Diamonds found up here in Brisbane.


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## bundy_zigg (May 7, 2007)

not just in the reptile species, natural intergration is a natural prosses, its called evolution!!!!, its a process that takes millions of years to happen but in the process species are changed and its normally for the best, thats how any species of animal survive!. In saying that im a firm believer in not playing god, its not up to us to made things that are already beautiful in to something else just so we can say we have made a new species or colouring, im disgusted in the birds that people are creating now days using inbreeding to produce abnormal colours. thats my say for today LOL


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## dragon_tail (May 7, 2007)

im not into playing god and hybridising either, although i dont suggest we kull juvie hybrids (as its not their fault, and im no hitler) its really the breeders own fault. please dont anyone get me wrong, im not for or against anything, im simply interested.


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## -Peter (May 7, 2007)

nightowl said:


> If this sub-species had have been given a proper name instead of 'intergrade' there wouldn't be people claiming Port Macs are "naturally crossed" pythons.


Wish I'd seen this post earlier, I would have carried you round on my shoulders at the Expo for an hour.
If we stick to calling them Port Mac carpets, Dorrigo carpets etc most of these people will come to understand.
The term intergrade should be made redundant in these discussions.


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## dave8208 (May 7, 2007)

well......why is it that when a diamond python has different patterns which resemble carpet patterns or the spots arent quite right or not enough yellow or what ever , it is called an " intergrade " which is a stupid name that downgrades the snake and makes it sound like an unattractive thing to have.
i was at castle hill snake show the other day and saw womas in displays , and had i not seen the head i would have sworn they were black headed pythons..............so , whats the difference and why are yous blokes not saying that a woma is an intergrade ..... magically turning into a black headed python through evolution ( or visa versa ) ????? the only difference is the head colour. and there is a huge pattern difference over the range - like Diamonds
And if certain people can pick an intergrade so well , and know so much about them , why would you go to a reptile meeting and tell one fella there, that his yearling diamond is an intergrade and then turn around and tell another fella that his is a pure diamond - when they both came from the same cluth or eggs - same father ? i know , because i bred them . do you do this to bag other breeders who are in opposition to you Bob ? - wouldnt be the first time 
- this causes disharmony among people - and confusion
Why dont we at the very least ,call whatever it is , something different to an "intergrade" - I dont like the word and dont believe it exists - they are either Diamonds or Carpets.
So , if there is a snake outside the colour patterns of either - why dont we call it a Northern Diamond or Southern Coastal Carpet , or Both - anything but an Intergrade


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## junglepython2 (May 7, 2007)

The term intergrade has negative connotations only because people incorrectly call hybrids intergrades. If this were to stop the negative connotations would go away.


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## Zoltag (May 7, 2007)

To me, hybridisation is the process of interbreeding animals of different sub-species with a mixture of desirable traits, in order to maximise the chance of producing off-spring with all of the desired traits...

This is essentially what breeders already do - As for whether they cross-breed sub-species or dont, I really dont know (who does?)...There is one major problem I can see with not crossing sub-species when you're trying to breed certain traits, and that is the fact you are severely limiting the DNA pool...And in some cases you may even end up inbreeding (whether by design or inadvertantly), which is much worse than any hybridisation...

This, in turn, leads to animals that are more prone to disease, genetically defected and difficult to keep...

Its a fact that (taking the dog example again), "mongrel", or cross-breeds are typically smarter, healthier animals that have less demands on the owner (and therefore easier to keep)...This is usually due to specific recessive genes related to problems with the breed being cancelled by the dominant gene from the other breed...

In the end, there are enough people wanting pure-breeds for pure-bred lines to be maintained, but if people like hybrids, why shouldnt they be allowed to have them?...And if people stop yelling and screaming about how bad hybrids are then breeders would have no reason to try and trick people into thinking they are anything else...(and I wouldnt be surprised if that goes on a lot more widely than people think)...


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## junglepython2 (May 7, 2007)

Cross breeding only hides negative recessive traits, line breeding if done correctly can totally eliminate them. Line breeding isn't worse then hybridisation. Hybridisation washes out individual gene pools which are specific to an area, this is why animals caught in one region are very rarely ever released into another region, if it is withing the range of the same species.


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## bigguy (May 7, 2007)

Dragontail, easy to explain. With intergrades you can get from the same clutch some that look more like Carpets, and some that look more Diamonds. Specially in the mid range of their area like Port Macquarie.


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## dragon_tail (May 7, 2007)

so in essence of what your saying, a diamond python is a carpet python that has morphed due to environment into what it is now., and at the begining of this range that creates the morpheological change (port mac) is where you find the same species that may look like two different ones? or am i still confussed?

if im correct in assuming this, then i would be interested to know if anyone has done a genetic comparrisson of a carpet and a diamond that has taken on the full characteristics of a diamond.


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## bigguy (May 7, 2007)

Dave8208. Get your facts right . I never told those teenage boys that one was an Intergrade and one was a Diamond. Before they even showed me their snakes, they told me they were bred by you. Why on earth would I say that siblings were 2 different species. What they were told as I was probbing their snakes, was one more closely resembled a Diamond than its sibling which clearly showed strong intergrade markings. This is very normal with intergrades found at their southern range.

As for not recognising intergrades, thats your right. But not many people support your views. Even NPWS has given them a seperate sub species status with their own species ID number. Obviously you were not at the March SOFAR meeting were I gave a talk on the differences between the two.

As for your comment regarding Womas and Blackheads, it truely shows how little you really know. Both these species are in the same family(aspidites) but they are distinct species from each other with totally different DNA. They are also found side by side too each other in many parts of Australia. Eastern Carpets on the other hand (morelia spilota ) with the same species DNA are divided into subspecies and are not found side by side, but in fact connected to each other by intergrades whereever the 2 subspecies meet. 

What I cant understand is why some people who own NSW coastal intergrades think they are second rate snakes and try to pass them off as pure Diamonds or Carpets. Intergrades are just as nice, and in some cases even nicer than Diamonds or Carpets. Just a few weeks ago a pair of intergrade adults sold for $1800 and they were worth every penny.


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## -Peter (May 7, 2007)

dragon_tail said:


> so in essence of what your saying, a diamond python is a carpet python that has morphed due to environment into what it is now., and at the begining of this range that creates the morpheological change (port mac) is where you find the same species that may look like two different ones? or am i still confussed?
> 
> if im correct in assuming this, then i would be interested to know if anyone has done a genetic comparrisson of a carpet and a diamond that has taken on the full characteristics of a diamond.


You are correct, the DNA work done on Morelia spilota ssp is limited to defining that they are all the one species. No one has fully mapped their DNA.
So far DNA has only shown that M.imbricata and M.bredli are distinct species. 
All the M.s ssp would have come down through West Papua/PNG so they would in all likelyhood be descended from M.s.varigata.


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## bigguy (May 9, 2007)

Greg Hollis of Port Macquarie, who breeds spectactular intergrades, was conducting DNA research several years ago. He had a massive cross sample tested. Greg had informed me that there were variations found in the DNA when the 3 species(Carpets, Intergrades,Diamonds) were tested.

Even though the Eastern Carpets are all the same species, there is still slight variations in the DNA of each subspecies and their intergrades.


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## hornet (May 9, 2007)

i'd just like to confirm, there are natural hybrids, i'm sure some animals have produced natural hybrids and i know for sure that there are many natural intergrades in plants, nothing wrong with natural intergrades, as said before, they are just locality specific carpets, i cant believe this topic keeps coming back up.


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## Southside Morelia (May 9, 2007)

LOL . Have just read the whole of this post for the first time. A bit of dejavu hey!!!  :lol:


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## zen (May 15, 2007)

Always interesting and informative this subject! 

I learn something everytime this somewhat controversial topic comes up. 
Informative contributions like BigGuys help educate newbies and old farts alike.:lol:


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## westerner (May 15, 2007)

Hi,
I have been trying to make some sense out of this thread....can someone please tell me... how does a person know if they have a pure pilbara stimmson compared to say a wheatbelt that has been bred with say a geraldton variety....and does this make the snake less valuable if one was wanting to eventually breed from it themselves....also when purchasing a snake does the seller need to give the buyer proof of what breeding it is....
Thanks for any ideas

A Newby


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## westerner (May 15, 2007)

Hi Hornet,

I was led to believe just what you mentioned above about natural hybrids... that there are occasions when say a Pilbara Python will mate with a Geraldton Python .....least I have learnt that they arent fussy...grinz

A Newby


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## Hollywood_Tybos (May 15, 2007)

i own many coastal carpet/diramond intergrades and i find them really great handlers and awsome fun- especially 4 a newbie- i rate some of my intergrades very highly and do not appreciate the negative comments. mine range from 3ft to 12ft and not 1 has ever bitten. just thought i would have my say and stick up 4 these little guys even though there are gonna be alot of ppl on here attackin me for voiceing my opinions. thats what seems to happen on here. i think if it is sold as what it is then there is no differance 2 selling say a murry darling- they r a legit sub species. end of story


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## dragon_tail (May 15, 2007)

i agree with them being great! the only thing in question here is if they are a coastal that is naturally 'morphing' into a diamond(intergrade), or if they are a product of a diamond and a coastal reproducing?(hybrid)


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## junglepython2 (May 15, 2007)

westerner said:


> Hi,
> I have been trying to make some sense out of this thread....can someone please tell me... how does a person know if they have a pure pilbara stimmson compared to say a wheatbelt that has been bred with say a geraldton variety....and does this make the snake less valuable if one was wanting to eventually breed from it themselves....also when purchasing a snake does the seller need to give the buyer proof of what breeding it is....
> Thanks for any ideas
> 
> A Newby


 
Thats the whole problem often it is impossible to tell and you need to go on the word of the breeder. People also tend to allocate a location to an animal simply by looks, ie "mine looks like that so it must be this" The animal then gets branded as a locale specific animal which often isn't the case.
And for the second part of your question pure bred or local specific animals are usually more expensive.


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## Greebo (May 15, 2007)

dragon_tail said:


> i agree with them being great! the only thing in question here is if they are a coastal that is naturally 'morphing' into a diamond(intergrade), or if they are a product of a diamond and a coastal reproducing?(hybrid)



This comment makes no sense at all. A coastal can not morph into a diamond.


Hollywood, 
The only people that use the word "intergrade" in a negative fashion are those that do not truly understand what the term means.


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## Aslan (May 15, 2007)

Greebo said:


> This comment makes no sense at all. A coastal can not morph into a diamond.


 
*Greebo* - I disagree entirely the Ninja Turtles morphed with the help of green slime when I was a kid...please get your facts straight before posting...


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## -Peter (May 15, 2007)

Aslan said:


> *Greebo* - I disagree entirely the Ninja Turtles morphed with the help of green slime when I was a kid...please get your facts straight before posting...


problem is Aslan that 90% of the people in this thread probably think thats true:? 
I did see some slime around the Port Macquarie area though now you mention it.


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## Aslan (May 15, 2007)

What really blows me away is that Intergrade/Hybrid threads are brought up every week - and even if that wasn't the case we are now on the 9th page of this one....how do these absurd posts still manage to make their way in...? *sigh*


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## sxc_celly (May 15, 2007)

I started this thread for a bit of info, and its just kept going lol. Its pretty interesting and informative to see peoples thoughts and opinions. Thanks everyone!


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## Zoltag (May 15, 2007)

Greebo said:


> This comment makes no sense at all. A coastal can not morph into a diamond.



But isnt that essentially what has happened?...(though it is more likely they both "morphed" into coastals and diamonds from a common ancestor, it is also possible that diamonds evolved from coastals or vice-versa)...

Hence there being intergrades between coastal carpet pythons and diamond pythons...

What I dont get is how people can say hybrids are bad but intergrades are good, as they can be genetically identical animals...(which really makes the whole argument moot, because if intergrades exist in the wild, then how can you possibly make the distinction between intergrades and hybrids in captivity, as again, they are the same animal (the only way you could would be by keeping perfect breeding records and providing papers for every animal born - Which is probably not such a bad idea, for purebred animals of a distinct sub-species, though it would be a waste of time, effort and money for animals of mixed genetics))...

(For those that are confused, the difference between an intergrade and a hybrid is defined by *when* they got the mix of genes that they have, not by *what* those genes are...Basically, if you trace their family tree back to before the two distinct sub-species diverged and didnt find any animals that were one sub-species or the other, they are intergrades and if you did find such animals in their family history, they are hybrids (whether they are wild-bred or not)...Who knows, all of the wild "intergrades" might actually be hybrids, its just that humans didnt get around to classifying them before the animals of mixed genetics appeared on the scene)...


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## Zoltag (May 15, 2007)

Aslan said:


> What really blows me away is that Intergrade/Hybrid threads are brought up every week - and even if that wasn't the case we are now on the 9th page of this one....how do these absurd posts still manage to make their way in...? *sigh*



Maybe because its difficult to find information about hybrids / intergrades and when newbies try to find out about it, a lot of misinformation seems to come from a lot of directions, so its simply easier to ask...*shrug*

Maybe a group of people with the right knowledge can put together a FAQ page, to detail exactly what hybrids and intergrades are and pose the informative, correct information from all angles?...

That way people would be less likely to have to start a new thread that might irritate you...


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## bigguy (May 15, 2007)

Zoltag, you are wrong and if you read back over my posts you will see why. Even though intergrades are the same species as all eastern carpets and share the same basic DNA, there is still detectable differences in the DNA between each subspecies. Intergrades are different from Caostal Carpets and Diamonds and are their own subspecies with their own DNA markers.

A manmade hybrid between Diamonds and Carpets do not have the same DNA as a natural occurring intergrade, but instead just share the DNA markers between Diamonds and Carpets, totally different.

So your comment that they are the same is false. This is easily shown by DNA evidence, but also hybrids look completely different to natual intergrades and a experienced keeper can normally tell the difference faily easily if seen live.


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## -Peter (May 16, 2007)

jeeeezus h christ. Most of you people seem totally unable to grasp the whole intergrade concept
Only mummy and daddy intergrades can have intergrade babies. 
Other Morelia species if cross bred cannot have intergrades. intergrades when referring to carpet pythons; thats the Morelia genus and in this case the morelia spilota spps; are those locality specific types found in certain areas. Not hobbiest bred animals from mixed ssp. That's a cross breed. A breed being a variant in a species achieved through selective coupling.
Intergrades are not the cross breeding in the wild of a coastal carpet and a diamond or an MD and a diamond. Not today, not tomorrow, not yesterday and not 1000 years ago. its not how it works. 
What happened was that all the pythons of old migrated down from Asia(except for the woma and blackhead) and then became regionally isolate. Now this probably happened on more than one occasion. When a genetic group becomes isolated you get certain genetic traits becoming dominant. Just like people did thousands of years ago.
So you end up with all the same species with characteristics that are dominant in certain locality groups.
Now if someone from Denmark has a child with someone from Nigeria, you don't get an Italian baby do you.


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## nightowl (May 16, 2007)

:lol: just keeps going on and on and on :lol:

What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Diamond? None
What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Coastal? None
What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Murray Darling? None
What two Species/Subspecies crossed to make a Port Mac (Intergrade)? NONE

They are ALL Locale specific carpet pythons! Just stop calling them Intergrades and there will be less confusion in the future.


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## -Peter (May 16, 2007)

nightowl said:


> :lol: They are ALL Locale specific carpet pythons! Just stop calling them Intergrades and there will be less confusion in the future.



That would solve it but unfortunately we need to have a name gazetted to replace intergrade. NSW NPWS need to replace the name on their register as well.
Someone needs to write and article for a reputableherp magazine.


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## Forensick (May 16, 2007)

so are intergrades capable of producing viable offspring? and hybrids not?

i see nothing wrong with ingrade/hybrids as long as the offspring are viable.

viable being capable of producing offspring themselves.


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## Zoltag (May 16, 2007)

bigguy said:


> Zoltag, you are wrong and if you read back over my posts you will see why. Even though intergrades are the same species as all eastern carpets and share the same basic DNA, there is still detectable differences in the DNA between each subspecies. Intergrades are different from Caostal Carpets and Diamonds and are their own subspecies with their own DNA markers.



OK, now I really dont understand...(and yes, I have read back over your posts - including the one that explains what intergrades are)...

My understanding of sub-species is that they are the same species, but with localised genetic differences, which essentially gives the animal a distinctive colour pattern, or minor physiological differences, etc...

Intergrades are animals that share some (or all) of the genetic markers distinct to each of the sub-species that they are intergrading and occur naturally at points where the sub-species meet (well, close enough to meeting, as the intergrades are the ones occuppying the space between the two sub-species)...Obviously, there are more genetic markers of one sub-species as you get closer to the range of that sub-species and vice versa...

Hybrids are animals that are produced when you breed one pure sub-species with another pure sub-species and hence share some (or all) of the genetic markers distinct to each sub-species and may or may not occur naturally, depending on whether the pure sub-species occur naturally in the same place (we'll ignore the fact that such meeting points would be undetectable as hybridisation and would instead be classified as intergrading, as you would see a "fuzzing" of the edges of the meeting point, due to cross breeding)...

So basically what it comes down to is when the genetic markers were mixed - If it occurred before either of the sub-species became distinct sub-species, then it would be an intergrade and if it occurred after the sub-species became distinct sub-species, then it would be a hybrid...

If either of these meanings are wrong, please tell me what I'm mis-understanding...

If the meanings are correct, then based on these meanings, it should be possible for a hybrid to be genetically identical to a naturally occurring intergrade, surely?...


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## Zanejb (May 16, 2007)

hmm actually i think you may be right there, youve explained it to a point that it makes a little more sense. the intergrades would be the shade of grey between an area of 2 different sub species. the only arguement against your claim is that if you have intergrades breed with intergrades it makes the gene stronger and therfor they should be a seperate sub species correct? where as a hybrid is a captivity bred animal that is firts generation (of the 2 crossed genes) and therefor not really a new snake unless the genes was bred again with another hybrid in which after a about 20 generations or so wouldnt you start to see a different breed of man made snake? correct me if im wrong


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## Zoltag (May 16, 2007)

Hi, Zanejb

I dont think it would be a new sub-species, as there is a mixing of the markers and no apparent new marker to identify the intergrade as a separate sub-species...(and because of the mixing, unless one particular set of markers were isolated and unable to mix with the rest of the markers present, there would be continual mixing and hence it would be normal variation within a species, rather than a separate, distinct species (or sub-species, of course)...

I understand intergrades is used to describe these animals, as they are sort of like stepping stones between the two sub-species...So if you have pop A and pop B, the intergrades closer to pop A would have more of the pop A markers and animals closer to pop B would have more of the pop B markers (which makes perfect sense, when you think about it - More animals from pop A would be breeding with intergrades close to pop A than pop B, so pop A markers would be more common and vice versa)...This is of course assuming that both the "pure" animals and the intergrades occupy the same territory - If there is a barrier preventing physical contact, then the intergrades are probably on their way to becoming a new sub-species as they are physically isolated from the other sub-species...

Does that make sense?...

I think that what you have described for a hybrid snake would be exactly how man would make a new sub-species (or breed, or type, or whatever you want to call it) and it is usually a breeding plan that is used to encourage the traits people want their animals to show...(such as line breeding, cross breeding and in-breeding, which are all viable and useful methods of selecting traits and have been used for centuries with other types of animals)...The only downside to it is that captive bred animals that have been manipulated into showing certain traits would not necessarily be able to survive in the wild, as humans breed for traits that may be detrimental to the animal being able to hide, hunt, etc...


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

I think what we need is to see the EXACT genetic differences between Diamonds, Coastals and Port Mac Carpets (intergrades). There must be somewhere on the net this information can be viewed ?


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## CHONDROS (May 16, 2007)

buy crossing a white diamond x yellow diamond or a tanami woma x uluro woma that is a hybrid to me as they are from different localitys the same as a jungle x coastal


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## nightowl (May 16, 2007)

This is all assuming coastals and diamonds existed before 'intergrades'? 

What if, over thousands of years, the evolution of snakes slowly changed as they moved from the northern areas (QLD) to south? As these Subspecies got further south they slowly changed colours and patterns to suit their new climate, eventually becoming their own subspecies. This would mean 'intergrades' were around before diamonds and didn't actually 'hybridise' with anything.

Obviously I am no scientist but this is just another way of looking at it.


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## Zoltag (May 16, 2007)

nightowl said:


> What if, over thousands of years, the evolution of snakes slowly changed as they moved from the northern areas (QLD) to south? As these Subspecies got further south they slowly changed colours and patterns to suit their new climate, eventually becoming their own subspecies. This would mean 'intergrades' were around before diamonds and didn't actually 'hybridise' with anything.
> 
> Obviously I am no scientist but this is just another way of looking at it.



That is exactly how intergrades are differentiated from hybrids, nightowl...

In other respects, they are essentially the same as hybrids - a mix of the genetic markers from both subspecies...

The difficulty (in my mind, anyways) is how do you tell if the intergrade is truly an intergrade, or really just a colony of hybrids?...


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## gman78 (May 16, 2007)

Can you cros a BHP with a Woma?
Just wondering for general knowledge???
I'm not some mad professor.


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## hornet (May 16, 2007)

yes you can


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## -Peter (May 16, 2007)

Zoltag said:


> That is exactly how intergrades are differentiated from hybrids, nightowl...
> 
> In other respects, they are essentially the same as hybrids - a mix of the genetic markers from both subspecies...
> 
> The difficulty (in my mind, anyways) is how do you tell if the intergrade is truly an intergrade, or really just a colony of hybrids?...



I think you have missed the point entirely.


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## Zoltag (May 16, 2007)

-Peter said:


> I think you have missed the point entirely.



Like I stated earlier, I am absolutely confused about what you guys mean by intergrades and hybrids and why one is good, but the other bad...

I have found scientific definitions for intergrades and hybrids, but when I posted them, I was told that I am wrong...

Help me get the point?...


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## Australis (May 16, 2007)

Im not sure how much more it can be explained after Bigguys, Peters and Nightowls posts.

For those people who seem to constantly describe these Pythons as the direct result of Carpet x Diamond pairings, now or 100,000 years ago.
Do you think Noah and his python loaded 
Ark dropped a few Carpets off in Queensland, then sailed down the coast to NSW 
and off loaded a few Diamonds? Then a few years later these pythons meet up in Northern NSW? :shock:


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

I'm sorry but under no circumstances can different localities of the same species be referred to as hybrids. You must remember it is only man who has given these snakes different names based on their locality. 



CHONDROS said:


> buy crossing a white diamond x yellow diamond or a tanami woma x uluro woma that is a hybrid to me as they are from different localitys the same as a jungle x coastal


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

I don't think the Noah story helped your credibility LOL. 



Australis said:


> Do you think Noah and his python loaded
> Ark dropped a few Carpets off in Queensland, then sailed down the coast to NSW
> and off loaded a few Diamonds? Then a few years later these pythons meet up in Northern NSW? :shock:


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## dragon_tail (May 16, 2007)

australis: now THAT anyone can understand! once i fully grasped the idea (thanks big guy) i tryed to used the words "morphed over time" (on the last couple pages somewhere) but i got flamed for it! why didnt i think of the noahs ark thing?!?! lol


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## nightowl (May 16, 2007)

Zoltag said:


> That is exactly how intergrades are differentiated from hybrids, nightowl...
> 
> In other respects, they are essentially the same as hybrids - a mix of the genetic markers from both subspecies...
> 
> The difficulty (in my mind, anyways) is how do you tell if the intergrade is truly an intergrade, or really just a colony of hybrids?...



hmm ... I am not saying Port Mac Carpets are 'intergrades' or hybrids....just their own subspecies. They aren't a mix of both subspecies because in my theory diamonds were not around yet. 

How about this....say..... once upon a time, 100,000 years ago there was a python colony around the centre of the east coast of australia (Brisbane). No other pythons existed below this point. Over the course of another few thousand years this species of python slowly bred its way south, changing patterns and colour (evolving into subspecies in order of Coastal, Port Mac, Diamond) as it went to suit the colder climates until it reached the south coast of NSW.

PS. the context of this post is not meant to offend anyone, just trying to use a bit of light humour


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## Hetty (May 16, 2007)

boa said:


> I'm sorry but under no circumstances can different localities of the same species be referred to as hybrids. You must remember it is only man who has given these snakes different names based on their locality.



So, in your opinion, a 10ft Atherton crossed with one of those small 5ft Tully jungles isn't a hybrid because they're both classified as 'cheynei'?


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## CHONDROS (May 16, 2007)

boa said:


> I'm sorry but under no circumstances can different localities of the same species be referred to as hybrids. You must remember it is only man who has given these snakes different names based on their locality.



yes but most people to not like cross breeds because they are not pure and crossing of localities make a snake that will show both the colors of both localities so is is no longer a pure (white diamond) but a cross a localities.

That is all that people are doing crossing localities of python (junglexcoastal)is just a cross of localities.

all localities of reptiles have colors from that area and when you cross to localities they will no longer breed to true to one localitie but both is that not a hybiid


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

Of course, they are both cheynei so the resulting offspring can't be hybrids, it's not my opinion, you can't have a hybrid within a sub species. There are plenty of species that vary tremendously in length, colour and pattern throughout their range. 



thenothing said:


> So, in your opinion, a 10ft Atherton crossed with one of those small 5ft Tully jungles isn't a hybrid because they're both classified as 'cheynei'?


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

That is definitely not the case, you can go to Gosford and find extremely high yellow Diamonds, dull yellow Diamonds, black and white Diamonds AND almost totally black Diamonds. The same is true of Jungles and coastals, it is virtually impossible to determine locality by appearance.



CHONDROS said:


> all localities of reptiles have colors from that area and when you cross to localities they will no longer breed to true to one localitie but both is that not a hybiid


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## Hetty (May 16, 2007)

boa said:


> Of course, they are both cheynei so the resulting offspring can't be hybrids, it's not my opinion, you can't have a hybrid within a sub species. There are plenty of species that vary tremendously in length, colour and pattern throughout their range.



hy·brid
1.the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.
I'd call different jungles different varieties. There's no way you'd get me breeding my Cape York 'cheynei' with any other type of 'cheynei'. To me, that would be creating hybrids. There's a post on what hybrids are in the help section.


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

Thanks, I know what hybrids are.


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## Hetty (May 16, 2007)

Sorry, that did sound rather rude.

The term hybrid does seem to mean different things to different people, that's what I was trying to say.


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

No worries, my problem with it is how far do you take it ? What if you have a beautiful flouro yellow Tully and a slightly less attractive mate that happens to be striped ? Do you try to produce a bright yellow striped Jungle or not bother because it could be considered a hybrid ? 
My point is of course it would be best practise to breed animals from the same locality BUT you can't create a hybrid from breeding 2 animals from within a species or sub species. Like I said just how far do we take it ? Do snakes have to have come from the same side of a hill ? How would we know anyway ? We only have the breeders word for it.


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## Hetty (May 16, 2007)

Well, I really think we need more subspecies for Carpets. I personally think a 10ft Atherton is as different from a 5ft black and gold Tully jungle as a Coastal carpet python is.


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

The thing is we can't seperate them at anything but a genetic level, Jungles come in all shapes and sizes from around 3 feet to over 10 and every size in between but that alone doesn't mean they are seperate species or even sub species. If of course they are shown to be genetically different I will willingly start calling them anything that is decided upon. We as individuals can't take it upon ourselves to split species into sub species we feel more comfortable with.


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## Zanejb (May 16, 2007)

i agree with you boa, all the jungles whether it be tullys or athertons they are jungles because of the way they display there features, size is generally the last thing you consider when putting an animal into a particular genus. when you check an animal for idetification they check the way the scales meet at the mouth to and scales to eye size and so on, after doing all this then they decide on what the animal is. to make my point make more sense an atherton jungle and a tully are the exact same animal the only difference is the way they have evolved to there surroundings but the animal is still the same and therefor if bred together arent technically a hybrid.


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## CHONDROS (May 16, 2007)

all snake have evolved to there surroundings most carpet are the same species so then a cross of a coastal and jungle can not be call a hybird technically


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## Greebo (May 16, 2007)

CHONDROS said:


> all snake have evolved to there surroundings most carpet are the same species so then a cross of a coastal and jungle can not be call a hybird technically



Nope. Technically a cross between a coastal and a jungle is a hybrid.
See definition of hybrid in the following link.

http://aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=44640


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## Hetty (May 16, 2007)

Meh, I wasn't just remarking on their size, I was talking about colour as well.

They're very different snakes.

Anyway, it's a problematic subject.


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## da_donkey (May 16, 2007)

CHONDROS said:


> all snake have evolved to there surroundings most carpet are the same species so then a cross of a coastal and jungle can not be call a hybird technically


 
I dont think anything could be called a "Hybird":lol: 

Donk


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## Retic (May 16, 2007)

A Condor, they fly very high.


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## CHONDROS (May 16, 2007)

ok then a cross of a wa bhp and a qld bhp as color and size are different they are still a bhp. but so are carpet


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## Zanejb (May 16, 2007)

actually the tully and athertons colours are exatly the same, you get your standard forms (black and whitish yellow) and you get your black and golds. the markings from the snakes are also very similar the snakes have more eye veiw similarities than they do differences. the only difference between the 2 snakes is really there size and thats it.


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## Zanejb (May 16, 2007)

you have to be carful when dealing with carpets, there differences and similarities are wide spread from colour and size to the way the scales sit and even to the extent of head sizes. its easy to compare area locations like WA and QLD forms but when you think of a sub species your actually seeing small differences other than colour and size.


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## junglepython2 (May 16, 2007)

Zanejb said:


> to make my point make more sense an atherton jungle and a tully are the exact same animal the only difference is the way they have evolved to there surroundings but the animal is still the same and therefor if bred together arent technically a hybrid.


 
If there is a difference in how they have evolved how can they possibly still be the same? They may not be a seperate sub-species but they do have there differences and are not really the same or we couldnt distinguish between the two and they wouldn't have two names.


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## Greebo (May 16, 2007)

dragon_tail said:


> australis: now THAT anyone can understand! once i fully grasped the idea (thanks big guy) i tryed to used the words "morphed over time" (on the last couple pages somewhere) but i got flamed for it! why didnt i think of the noahs ark thing?!?! lol



I guess the flamed comment is aimed at me. I am sorry if you think that I was trying to flame you as that was not my intention. I have seen this topic come up on here so many times that I know the subject matter very well.
However, I stand by what I said about your previous comment as it was ambigious and did not make sense.


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## Hetty (May 16, 2007)

Zanejb said:


> actually the tully and athertons colours are exatly the same, you get your standard forms (black and whitish yellow) and you get your black and golds. the markings from the snakes are also very similar the snakes have more eye veiw similarities than they do differences. the only difference between the 2 snakes is really there size and thats it.



Oh, god. You didn't read what I said. I was talking about a specific type of Atherton and comparing it to a 'jungle' of a different region.


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## Zanejb (May 16, 2007)

the nothing - did i not make any sense at all! i was comaparing the atherton to another jungle from a different region which was the tully so yes i did read what you said and yes i did reply with a reasonable answer

junglepython2 - what i was inplying with the jungles is that they are basically the same except for size variations and colours this is a "small" population of jungles that have made small changes to there life style but havent evolved into a seprate sub species. they still have all the features of other jungles and there for are the same. instead of saying QLD form or NT form, seeings as all the jungles are in qld we devided them into areas just like we have pilbara BHPs and so on. there all still jungles bu the main difference is the atherton are bigger than the other jungles tully, palmerston etc. generally the markings dont change much between the different areas as some can throw lots of black and some throw more yellow it all depends on what genes have been rebred back into the snakes each season within these certain areas. and also these smakes are all side by side and this means the smaller sizes can breed with the larger ones and depending on which gene is stronger will depend on how large the offspring will turn out.


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## Australis (May 16, 2007)

boa said:


> I don't think the Noah story helped your credibility LOL.




Maybe not, but its stupid enough to work :shock:


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## buck (May 16, 2007)

boa said:


> That is definitely not the case, you can go to Gosford and find extremely high yellow Diamonds, dull yellow Diamonds, black and white Diamonds AND almost totally black Diamonds. The same is true of Jungles and coastals, it is virtually impossible to determine locality by appearance.


 

Exactly what I was going to say but using the Illawarra as an example


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## Zoltag (May 17, 2007)

Australis said:


> Im not sure how much more it can be explained after Bigguys, Peters and Nightowls posts.
> 
> For those people who seem to constantly describe these Pythons as the direct result of Carpet x Diamond pairings, now or 100,000 years ago.
> Do you think Noah and his python loaded
> ...



If you read (and understand) my posts, you will see that I do not think that at all...(Not least because I dont believe in god)...



nightowl said:


> hmm ... I am not saying Port Mac Carpets are 'intergrades' or hybrids....just their own subspecies. They aren't a mix of both subspecies because in my theory diamonds were not around yet.
> 
> How about this....say..... once upon a time, 100,000 years ago there was a python colony around the centre of the east coast of australia (Brisbane). No other pythons existed below this point. Over the course of another few thousand years this species of python slowly bred its way south, changing patterns and colour (evolving into subspecies in order of Coastal, Port Mac, Diamond) as it went to suit the colder climates until it reached the south coast of NSW.
> 
> PS. the context of this post is not meant to offend anyone, just trying to use a bit of light humour



Again, you are right in describing how intergrades evolve...

The Port Mac Carpets are defined as intergrades, rather than their own sub-species because they carry the genetic markers from coastals and diamonds and dont have any genetic markers distinct to only their type...

Think about it this way - Coastal carpets have some genetic markers that are not present in Diamonds and vice versa...However Port Macs do not have any markers distinct from both coastals and diamonds (that have been identified to date), instead they have the markers from both subspecies...(That is what makes them a link (intergrade) between coastals and diamonds - I believe if they didnt exist, then coastals and diamonds would be separate species, rather than subspecies)...


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## Pythoninfinite (May 17, 2007)

The taxonomy of this vast carpet python group is still very poorly understood, and is probably too big a task for one researcher to take on in one lifetime... We can all theorise till the cows come home, and all our theories may be blown out of the water with new research at any time.

It may be simpler than we think, it may actually be far more complex than any of us know, but it will take many hours and thousands of specimens from all over Australia to ascertain the true standing of all the locality groups of carpets. And the nature and methods involved in taxonomic research are evolving all the time too - new methods may bring about a dramatic change in the way speciation is interpreted.

I do REALLY like the Noah bit though - that puts it in a nutshell beautifully... There NEVER was a gap between coastals & diamonds along this coast - wherever these snakes originally came from, they have inhabited almost the full length of the east coast for countless thousands of years and have simply adapted to the local environment wherever they may be.

Jamie.


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## Renagade (May 20, 2007)

my port mac is beautiful, he has a wonderful temperament and was cheap. i have no problem with the " mongrel" snake, he will probably out live his arthritic ridden, hip displacer suffering purebred relatives. anyway no one seems to give a **** that there are pretty much no full blood aborigines left in australia. get some perspective people.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

i think this thread has gone on far enough, people are now confusing area locations with sub species! and we have gone from jungles to coastals to diamonds and so on. so ill make things simple and you can choose to beleive or choose not to.

intergrade - a cross between SUB species (eg, a diamond x a coastal)

Hybrid - a cross between 2 different species (eg, a BHP x a coastal)

ive also come to the conclusion that you can breed an intergade in captivity so long as they are sub species and you COULD also breed a hybrid so long as they are different species (but eggs may be unfurtile or if offspring where born they may be unfurtile). this really isnt hard to understand and it has taken me time to except it but i beleive this to be the closest to the right answer.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

The term hybrid is NOT confined to naturally ocuring crosses, thats just stupid. not to mention a bhp and coastal couldnt breed together.


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## Australis (May 20, 2007)

Zanejb said:


> intergrade - a NATURALLY accuring cross between SUB species (eg, a wild diamond x a wild coastal)



Your still missing the point, wild diamonds are NOT breeding with Wild Coastals.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

grimbeny - ok i will add that the last paragraph of what i wrote states that you can bred hybrids and intergrades in captivity and i was using examples i wasnt implying that these where in perticular being bred.

australis - like with grimbeny if you read my post again i clearly have stated 'eg' and therefor implying examples to go with my points i wasnt saying that this is the issue. whether or not i have put "NATURALLY" or not it doesnt matter and ill even re edit my post to make it more to your liking.


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## Australis (May 20, 2007)

No point showing a example that isnt true.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

I think that generally integrades are regarded as naturally occuring animals which lie in the overlap of two closely related sub species eg portmacs. Where as hybrids are artificial crosses between two animals of different species or subspecies.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

actually if you do it in captivity then it would be true, am i not correct?


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

I dont think that crosses r regarded as integrades


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## Jungle_Freak (May 20, 2007)

Hybrid ??????? The Copulation Takes Place In Captivity ,
Intergrade ??????? The Copulation Takes Place In The Wild ,
Very Simple


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

agreed


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

hmmm youve missed the point


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

to me an intergrade is just another word for a cross and a hybrid is basically an abonination so the concept of a diamond cross a coastal not being an intergrade doesnt make sence a hybrid is usually something that shouldnt really exist so if you breed anything under the _morelia _with sub species to another sub species then its a cross/intergrade. a hybrid on the other hand IF i refer to it as an abinination that shouldnt exist then it would be different snakes species that have bred like a finch crosssed with a canery. but like i posted earlier some will agree with me some wont


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

I think thats a rather naieve way of thinking about it. what one person regards as an abomination others would not. I dont particularly think people shood breed coastals and diamonds. But port macs on the other hand r a different thing. Crossing a coastal and diamond does not make a port mac.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

ok lets say a port mac shares the genes of both a diamond and a coastal. well if i bred a diamond crossed with a coastal with a port mac what will i get? will i get a port mac or a intergrade or a hybrid


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

a hybrid


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

really and why is that?


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

A port mac is not simply a regular coastal X a diamond. They r in the overlap they have traits similar to each but r not really just a cross.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

ahh yes the port mac depending on where it area will depend on how much of either coastal or diamond it has but if you bred it with a coastal cross diamond then your only adding to the diamond and coastal gene pool within the port mac so i still beleive it to be an intergrade.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

It might look alot like a port mac and even an experienced herper probably couldnt tell the difference but it couldnt be called a port mac.


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## Jungle_Freak (May 20, 2007)

Zane 
wrote 
Hybrid - a cross between 2 different species (eg, a BHP x a coastal)

the above example is hypothetical and not a fact ?
in this instance any offspring from the above example would be hybrids , true .



the simplest definition has been stated many times on this thread 
Hybrid = The Copulation Takes Place In Captivity between sub species or species 
Intergrade = The Copulation Takes Place In The Wild between naturtally occuring sub species


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

i have to disagree and im not going to bother with genetics and what not your only claiming that an intergrade is a natural accurance right? well if i bred a jungle with a coastal in captivity and conrtinued through a few gnerations im actually INTERbreeding the genes and creating an INTERGADE. this coouldnt be a hybrid as a hybrid is a creature that has unlike parents so a snake that is neither like the father nor the mother but looks like something completely different another word for this is a MULE. look up hybrid in the dictionary and youll figure it out.

jungle_freak - my example was not a fact but was an example so im not saying its possable to breed BHP with coastals as the genes are too diffirent and would result in unfertile eggs or unfertile offspring which would be mules.


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## stencorp69 (May 20, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> The devil is in the fine print my freind DOMESTIC dogs are all the same species. If you put a labrodor over an african wild dog that would make a hybrid. And SXC yes they are all the same species line bred from the one group of animals. That's what 10'000 years of line breeding can do.


 
That's a great point in this argument, because unless you are breeding between animals that have been sourced (or have heritage) from the same spot in the wild (within say 20KM), you are actually diluting the genetic purity of the animal. There is no point breeding a gosford diamond with a bega diamond and claiming its pure - in the end its a hybrid, the whole argument is pretty much hypocritical. 

If you are selectively breeding for traits that you or others will like I think it is good for the hobby. I'd love to see a BHP/WOMA X. 

Very few of us are keeping reptiles for conservation purposes given that we aren't allowed to release offspring into the wild, so the genetic purity arguement is a matter of choice.

Sten


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

ok here is my theory based on dictonary meanings and some genetics and so on.

*Intergrade* - an intergrade is anything bred (wild or in captivity) from within the the same genus for example a _morelia spilota spilota x morelia spilota cheynei_) the animal has features similar to both mum and dad (mum and dad also share fearures) is still FERTILE and thus not a hybrid.

*Hybrid *- a hybrid is anything bred (wild or in captivity) from two different genuses (for example _morelia x Aspidites_ *OR* _morelia x Notechis_) the animals will look different to both mum and dad (mum and dad dont share features) they are refered to as a MULE and are unfertile *IF* breeding was successful and thus not an intergrade.

is this hard to understand or is this flying over peoples heads?


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

For starters the dictionary definition of a hyrbid is the cross from between two different species not genuses. Secondly the dictionary isnt going to be acurate for scientific terms. Thirdly you have just made up your own definitions they r not the ones comonly used in the herp comunity.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> For starters the dictionary definition of a hyrbid is the cross from between two different species not genuses. Secondly the dictionary isnt going to be acurate for scientific terms. Thirdly you have just made up your own definitions they r not the ones comonly used in the herp comunity.


 
the dictonary usually uses the example of a donkey and horse they are the same species of animal (Perissodactyls) but a different genus and secondly the term for hybrids is the Biological meaning and therfor scientific and my definitions are based on the herp community as if you look in the wiki and look at the 'base" interpritation then i have been following the meanings the whole time and are based on the "commonly" used meanings. and you have to remember this is under debate and therefor the herp communities interpritation is going to vary so dont generalise.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

Somthing cant be the same species and different genus.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

oh my god you have no idea about biology do you? Perissodactyls are hooved animals horses and donkeys belong to this group and the example you get for a hybrid is when you breed a donkey and a horse together. different species but same genus, still cant grasp this concept? also the dictionary meaning that uses this example is the biological meaning, not the general term.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

Im sorry Zanejb in this case ur wrong. species is underneath genus in the tree, you could only be more specific in naming its subspecies. Genus is a heading above species.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

there ive changed it for you as you are right species comes after genus, however when it comes to the other things ive posted you still havent given a good arguement against what ive put up.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

Oh u just got urself mixed up in ur third last post.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

and i thank you for pointing it out.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

I duno what to say becaus ur just saying STUFF. On this website at least most people would regard a coastal crossed with a diamond as a hybrid.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

Integrades have always been regarded as purely naturally ocuring crosses. So if a coastal X diamond isnt a hybrid it also isnt an integrade and we need a new word.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

????? no we dont need a new word as ive already explained, i havent been saying "STUFF" as everything ive stated is relevent. and as far as for most of the people on this forum calling a coastal x diamond a hybrid thats a load of crap. most people avoid an arguement so they plain and simply call it a cross most of the time.


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

But rnt u trying to argue its an integrade?


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## Aslan (May 20, 2007)

Zanejb said:


> most people avoid an arguement.


 
That's news to me...

This topic is raised every bloody week and always devolves into an argument with people quoting a variety of different definitions and dribble...

...surprise, surprise it seems to have happened again...


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## grimbeny (May 20, 2007)

lol aslan


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

grimbeny said:


> But rnt u trying to argue its an integrade?


 
Yes i have.


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## Zanejb (May 20, 2007)

Aslan said:


> That's news to me...
> 
> This topic is raised every bloody week and always devolves into an argument with people quoting a variety of different definitions and dribble...
> 
> ...surprise, surprise it seems to have happened again...


 

yes your right in that perspective, i have been avoiding this debate for a good 5 days already and to a point of not even reading the posts but i guess im back here again. but may i add that you have also been one of those who have posted these definitions and dribble


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## krissy78 (May 20, 2007)

junglepython2 said:


> Exactly, dogs have been bred for human purposes and are domesticated, thankfuly snakes aren't domesticated yet.....
> 
> There is nothing wrong with natural intergrades other then it makes it easier to sell hybrids as something they are not.


 
If snakes became domesticated who would need a noisy dog to fetch their slippers or the news paper.


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## Greebo (May 20, 2007)

I don't see why people have such a hard time understanding such a simple concept. I managed to explain the difference between a intergrade and a hybrid to a non-herp person in a matter of minutes. They easily grasped the idea. It is really not that difficult. Yet some people are still arguing otherwise until they are blue in the face.
This thread is going around in circles so, oh my god, it's now closed.


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