# Woma feed attempt part I



## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

My feeding attempts for my two problem womas thus far does not inspire confidence in any way.
I put a freshly killed mouse in with the small female, and a freshly killed rat in with the male.

After 90 minutes I took both rodents out *sigh*, put the mouse in the fridge and the rat in the freezer, and will attempt to feed the female again later tonight, around 9pm.

I will let you know how it goes tomorrow morning. I noticed the male looks like he is just starting a shed cycle, so I will not attempt to feed him until after he has shed, but most importantly he did not refuse a feed when he was just going into shed back in September, so this time it's different.


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## Sutto82 (Jan 15, 2012)

How long have you had them and what age are they? From everyone I know with Woma's and including mine, they are hoovers when it comes to food.

Interesting.


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## Squinty (Jan 15, 2012)

Have you tried enticing them to constrict on the rat by tapping it on their body/neck. I find sometimes that works. If they constrict it without biting it they will usually still eat it.


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## Sutto82 (Jan 15, 2012)

Also have you tried braining or bleeding the mice/rats? I have a young female diamond that will only eat mice, when there are washed, paper towel dried and then had there heads cracked open for brain juice..... I'm trying to wean her onto just eating normally.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Sutto82 said:


> From everyone I know with Woma's and including mine, they are hoovers when it comes to food.
> Interesting.



Mate, you're preaching to the choir. I know only too well that womas are absolute pigs...but not these ones!

What is interesting is that for the first couple of months the male went through about 6 feeds, refused 1 feed, then ate again, and then since that last feed in early November has gone off his food. The female never ate for me. I've tried little quail, small rats, and now...drum roll...mice!

Strange. Very, very, strange.

I will only start crying when the snakes keel over and die...until then I will just keep trying. Eventually though I'm concerned with the prospect of having to assist-feed - this is not force feeding, which I believe is very cruel and unacceptable - assist feeding allows the snake to decide whether to eat the food after the food is gently placed in it's mouth to open it up, whereas force-feeding one literally rams the food down the neck which I find utterly atrocious and would never ever condone.

Assist feeding can in some cases bring some snakes back to life in regards to their appetite. Some do not.
I am wondering if there is something wrong internally with the snakes...perhaps a bacterial problem maybe. Womas are supposed to be pigs.



Sutto82 said:


> Also have you tried braining or bleeding the mice/rats? I have a young female diamond that will only eat mice, when there are washed, paper towel dried and then had there heads cracked open for brain juice..... I'm trying to wean her onto just eating normally.



I will give that a go, but I don't have my hopes up as I believe I've tried this before, just not with fresh killed, so maybe it will make a difference.



Squinty said:


> Have you tried enticing them to constrict on the rat by tapping it on their body/neck. I find sometimes that works. If they constrict it without biting it they will usually still eat it.



I'm told that can stress them out...

They are both yearlings.


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## stimigex (Jan 15, 2012)

These snakes came from a respected breeder and were feeding at the time!
Its a great pitty you burned that bridge as he would be the one to approach
in regards to the husbandry problems you have that have switched these snakes off!


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

Get your husbandry correct before anything else,since both are giving you a hard time it is most likely that they are not happy in their current setup,temps included.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Hang on a minute, my husbandry is correct. Temps range from 33 degrees at the warm end to around 23-25 degrees at the cool end.

Why is it that the big female I have does not give me any problems?! She's NEVER refused a feed, and is getting pretty damned close to adult size. Another 1cm added to her girth and she'll be ready for breeding. She'll breed this year, guaranteed, she's big and getting bigger.

The other two, it's like they've given up on eating. I will of course keep trying.

It's always laughable that when someone's snakes become problem feeders and someone always jumps in and says it's because of husbandry problems...conveniently ignoring the fact that my large female woma has never refused a single feed since I've had her. Get your facts straight.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Hang on a minute, my husbandry is correct. Temps range from 33 degrees at the warm end to around 23-25 degrees at the cool end.



Obviously not that's why you are having a problem with them.


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## Jarden (Jan 15, 2012)

How about throwing away nasty *** rats thats been sitting there for 90 minutes ? Think about all the bacteria growing on them whilst being in the enclosure then you freeze them and try again later? Would you defrost chicken decide later in the arvo you dont want it for dinner then re freeze it with all the bacteria growing on it during the day ? Husbandry can come into play . Just saying.... How old are they, What size enclosure / tubs are they in have they got plenty of hides .


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

In the end I may have to part with them, as sad as that will be, because I want to keep trying. I've already worked on the husbandry problems, and thought about it carefully, and made some minor adjustments on the thermostat a week or so ago, that may improve the temperature range. The big female I have and the male are both going into shed, the big female is about to shed, and the male is just getting started in the shed cycle, his eyes are starting to look a bit milky, so I won't attempt any feed until the male sheds.

THe big female is fine, never had trouble with her.

It's just these particular snakes. I'm going to also look into it if antibiotics will help, perhaps some flora in their digestive tract has gotten out of control, these things do happen. Pathogens are all around us, we can't forget those risks because they are there.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jan 15, 2012)

Benjamind, have you tried everything else that was suggested last time too?


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

How are they being heated? What type of tank/tub are they in etc?


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Jarden said:


> How about throwing away nasty *** rats thats been sitting there for 90 minutes ? Think about all the bacteria growing on them whilst being in the enclosure then you freeze them and try again later? Would you defrost chicken decide later in the arvo you dont want it for dinner then re freeze it with all the bacteria growing on it during the day ? Husbandry can come into play . Just saying.... How old are they, What size enclosure / tubs are they in have they got plenty of hides .



These rodents were freshly killed, so freezing them is OK.

The enclosures are suitable for a NT woma. A bit too small for a SA woma, but absolutely fine for a NT woma. They have breeder's choice which is newspaper pellets. I may change that over to newspaper and see if that helps.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> These rodents were freshly killed, so freezing them is OK.
> 
> The enclosures are suitable for a NT woma. A bit too small for a SA woma, but absolutely fine for a NT woma. They have breeder's choice which is newspaper pellets. I may change that over to newspaper and see if that helps.



In your opinion they are suitable but can you just answer my questions? better yet take a pic of the setup


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jan 15, 2012)

it may be worth a visit to a vet as you suggested in an earlier post..


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> How are they being heated? What type of tank/tub are they in etc?



They are being kept in a FB70 Freedom Breeder rack, which, strictly speaking are actually the best way to keep snakes as it *minimises* any stress... and the heating mechanism is absolutely fine. It is controlled by a thermostat which is set at 33-34 degrees.



Ramsayi said:


> Obviously not that's why you are having a problem with them.



And why, say you, is the big female I have not giving me any problems?


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> They are being kept in a FB70 Freedom Breeder rack, which, strictly speaking are actually the best way to keep snakes as it *minimises* any stress... and the heating mechanism is absolutely fine. It is controlled by a thermostat which is set at 33-34 degrees.


 
You keep insisting that it is nothing you are or are not doing yet everything points to husbandry.

What is the minimum temp getting down to in particular very early morning?


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> In your opinion they are suitable but can you just answer my questions? better yet take a pic of the setup



Here we go.

Reptile Racks Australia/FB17

It is the FB17 rack.



Ramsayi said:


> You keep insisting that it is nothing you are or are not doing yet everything points to husbandry.
> 
> What is the minimum temp getting down to in particular very early morning?



I will have to measure that with a thermometer. I have no idea what the minimum temp gets down to, especially very early morning. Maybe that could be the problem. I will have to check it out.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

Is the wall the rack is against an internal or external wall?


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## Jarden (Jan 15, 2012)

Dimensions age of snakes etc....


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> I will have to measure that with a thermometer. I have no idea what the minimum temp gets down to, especially very early morning. Maybe that could be the problem. I will have to check it out.




You can lead a horse to water.........................


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

What I'm going to do is remove all the bedding, and change everything back to newspaper. I've been using the breeders choice pellets for a few months, but now I've decided that maybe newspaper or butchers paper is better, at least from a hygiene standpoint. I was changing the entire bedding of breeder's choice once a month, with thorough spot cleaning each time the snake tips over the water bowl, or leaves any fecal or urinal matter at any given location.

Maybe I need to change the bedding every week.



Ramsayi said:


> Is the wall the rack is against an internal or external wall?



External wall. I live in a relocatable home, and there is only one bedroom, and the entire place is basically one large room with several partitions for different areas.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

Maybe you need to find out what's happening with the temps over a 24 hour period for a start.Leave them alone don't go changing substrates etc,just leave them alone.The more info you supply the more likely you are to get an answer to your problem instead of insisting it couldn't be possibly anything you are or are not doing.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

But there is no noise where I live, everything is whisper quiet, we live in a secluded area, with minimal noise, so I'm unsure if that would make any difference.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> External wall. I live in a relocatable home, and there is only one bedroom, and the entire place is basically one large room with several partitions for different areas.



They could be feeling the cold coming through the wall from outside early of a morning,try moving the rack to an internal wall.


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## hrafna (Jan 15, 2012)

have you tried putting the animals in smaller enclosures? perhaps they are stressing in what they are in. is the thermostat working fine?


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> They could be feeling the cold coming through the wall from outside early of a morning,try moving the rack to an internal wall.



Will try that.



hrafna said:


> have you tried putting the animals in smaller enclosures? perhaps they are stressing in what they are in. is the thermostat working fine?



I believe the enclosures are appropriate for the size of the animals I have. What I can do is provide more hiding places. More sheets of newspaper for them to hide under, etc. The thermostat is fine, it's working well, the temperatures range from roughly 34 at the hot end to about 24 at the cold end.


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## hnn17 (Jan 15, 2012)

does your thermometer have min and max functions ?, it saves the minimum/maximum temperature reached. 

checked for mites ?


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## hrafna (Jan 15, 2012)

i understand that but if the animals aren't eating wouldn't you try anything and everything?


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

Fix your temps and you will fix the problem.My money is on the temps dropping too low in the night/early morning.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

hrafna said:


> i understand that but if the animals aren't eating wouldn't you try anything and everything?



I have no smaller enclosures to keep them in, so will have to put lots of hides inside the existing enclosures which should achieve the same goal. I may just put 3 hides in different areas. It's not as much of an issue with larger enclosure sizes if there are sufficient hiding places.



Ramsayi said:


> Fix your temps and you will fix the problem.My money is on the temps dropping too low in the night/early morning.



I'd say that may indeed be the problem. I may just have to use my A/C to heat the place and set it to turn on at below 22 degrees - feel a bit funny doing this in the summer, but if this is what my problem is then I'll have to use this solution. I don't mind paying an extra $15-20/month on my energy bill.


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## DerekRoddy (Jan 15, 2012)

Why even bother with trying different things? 

Just assist them and be done with it....they'll start soon enough.
I've had a few Woma's here and there.... that didn't want to start as soon as the others..... and, they were all kept the same.

Just stay on them with assisting.

D


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

DerekRoddy said:


> Why even bother with trying different things?



One of the more knowledgable keepers here, Ramsayi, was very informative with regards to night time/early morning temps dropping to such a low level that may switch the snake's feeding responses off and throwing everything out of whack.

I think Ramsayi is right on the money...I'll bet London to a brick that he is right. I will have to try this out. It does get cooler here at nights than in your ordinary house, because I don't have insulation - mobile homes usually are built in a cheap cost-saving fashion and any insulation/sealing is just an afterthought. So I will need to use the A/C to maintain decent low end temps.

Perhaps some womas are not as affected by the temperature swings as others, so each snake is different in it's own way, maybe these ones prefer more stable temps, whereas my big female doesn't seem to be bothered by it...


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## Ramsayi (Jan 15, 2012)

You might want to line the back and maybe half of the sides of the rack with some type of insulation such as foam sheets or even some sheets of sarking.


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## Kimberlyann (Jan 15, 2012)

Poor Ben, you always come here for advice and get shot down  
Have you tried scenting with skink? Since woma's are meant to be a reptile eater..
Just a thought anyway. Grab a garden skink and steal its bit of tail that falls off and squish it in all over the rat/mouse


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## dickyknee (Jan 15, 2012)

Ok , lets TRY and sort this out once and for all cause I am sick of reading your crap ...

Day temps , hot end / cold end ?
Night temps , hot end / cold end ?
How many hours a day do you heat them ?
Please post pics of your set up ( as I have heard you keep your snake in full pesrpex boxes , not proper racks ) 
How often are you handling them ?
Have you tried other rodents , not ones you kill your self ?
Any other details you have will be good ...

You claim that your temps are perfect , yet you post this ""I will have to measure that with a thermometer. I have no idea what the minimum temp gets down to, especially very early morning. Maybe that could be the problem. I will have to check it out. ""
It Stands to reason if you have no idea on this part of your husbandry then you may not have an idea on other parts of it too.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> You might want to line the back and maybe half of the sides of the rack with some type of insulation such as foam sheets or even some sheets of sarking.



I might try that and see how that works. I may just get some of that stuff that they make eskies out of, which is sold in big thick sheets, around an inch thick and come in various dimensions. I will have to build some sort of box out of the panels which may be tricky getting the cords into and out of, but shouldn't be a real challenge.


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## dickyknee (Jan 15, 2012)

Kimberlyann said:


> Poor Ben, you always come here for advice and get shot down
> Have you tried scenting with skink? Since woma's are meant to be a reptile eater..
> Just a thought anyway. Grab a garden skink and steal its bit of tail that falls off and squish it in all over the rat/mouse




Womas at 450 grams / 550 grams and a little over 6 months of age at time of purchase should never need scenting of any kind.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Kimberlyann said:


> Poor Ben, you always come here for advice and get shot down
> Have you tried scenting with skink? Since woma's are meant to be a reptile eater..
> Just a thought anyway. Grab a garden skink and steal its bit of tail that falls off and squish it in all over the rat/mouse



I thought about that, and have plenty of skinks around where I live. They're pretty hard to catch though, so I won't be doing it too often


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## dickyknee (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> I might try that and see how that works. I may just get some of that stuff that they make eskies out of, which is sold in big thick sheets, around an inch thick and come in various dimensions. I will have to build some sort of box out of the panels which may be tricky getting the cords into and out of, but shouldn't be a real challenge.



Get some coreflute , it is very cheap , easy to cut etc and holds heat well , it comes in various thicknesses too, try Mr Ply and Wood type stores .


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> Ok , lets TRY and sort this out once and for all cause I am sick of reading your crap ...
> Day temps , hot end / cold end ?
> Night temps , hot end / cold end ?
> How many hours a day do you heat them ?
> ...



Day temps, hot end around 33-34 degrees, cold end, around 24 degrees. I use an IR gun thermometer, which gives reasonably accurate temps.
Night temps, hot end around 33-34 degrees, cold end, could be anywhere from 10 to 24 degrees depending ambient temps, according to what Ramsayi has stated. I have not measured what the temps are at night, which could be the problem.

I have only rarely handled them, about maybe once a fortnight, if that.

I heat them 24/7, the thermostat controls the hot end and adjusts temps automatically, hot end should be between 32 and 34 degrees.

I do not keep my snakes in perspex boxes any more. That was so 2010, a long time ago. I learned my lesson. 
My set up is this: Reptile Racks Australia/FB17

I have used 2 sources of rodents, one from a very reputable source here on the coast, and some rats that I actually bred myself earlier in the year.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 15, 2012)

Im just curious why you just place the food items in the enclosure, is this a technique commonly used when feeding womas?

The reason I ask is with my snakes I always get a better response from offering by the tail or with tongs



benjamind2010 said:


> Day temps, hot end around 33-34 degrees, cold end, around 24 degrees. I use an IR gun thermometer, which gives reasonably accurate temps.
> Night temps, hot end around 33-34 degrees, cold end, could be anywhere from 10 to 24 degrees depending ambient temps, according to what Ramsayi has stated. I have not measured what the temps are at night, which could be the problem.
> 
> I have only rarely handled them, about maybe once a fortnight, if that.
> ...



I should point out the pet shop that you asked me to get the live ones for you from are the only that sell live feeders in the area, that doesn't exactly make them reputable


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## dickyknee (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Day temps, hot end around 33-34 degrees, cold end, around 24 degrees. I use an IR gun thermometer, which gives reasonably accurate temps.
> Night temps, hot end around 33-34 degrees, cold end, could be anywhere from 10 to 24 degrees depending ambient temps, according to what Ramsayi has stated. I have not measured what the temps are at night, which could be the problem.
> 
> I have only rarely handled them, about maybe once a fortnight, if that.
> ...



Can you please post an actual picture of YOUR set up , not a link to a website.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

UPDATE: I will get some pics when my camera is charged. The battery is flat, so I will have to charge it. I will have to use my old macbook to retreive the photos due to silly driver s/ware not working on wndows 7.

Brett, my set up looks exactly the same as on that website, except it's 4 levels instead of 7, in a single stack. The distinction is that I have a towel over the front of the rack so that the snakes can't see out through the little clear panels...the idea, of course, is to reduce stress.

On the inside of each tub is a 3 sheets of newspaper on the floor, about 2 inches of breeder's choice on top of that, and of course, the water bowl on the cool end.

I will need to get a more up-to-date camera, the old Canon I have only works on my old macbook


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## No-two (Jan 15, 2012)

Mine had one or two feeds when I got them (direct siblings to yours) and powered along, yours were 600grams at 6months they were also powering along, theres nothign wrong with the animals (but I don't need to tell you that again), 2inches of breeders choice, can they feel the heat on top of that?


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Very nice animal.

No, there were no problems with the animals when I got them. Perhaps the trauma of the train trip may have stressed the female, but the male was eating fine until November.

I think it could be temps, not sure with the female.


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## Sutto82 (Jan 15, 2012)

I understand the idea of having racks for breeding etc. But maybe by covering the front windows over with a towel, you are making it constantly dark and they maybe need some light to adjust their body clocks to a feeding time. Unless its a highly travelled area where there is constantly people walking by, why do you need to put a towel across the front?


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## abnrmal91 (Jan 15, 2012)

A train trip in a bucket wouldnt stress them so much as to stop it feeding, it has to be either being continual stressed or other husbandry issue.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

Sutto82 said:


> I understand the idea of having racks for breeding etc. But maybe by covering the front windows over with a towel, you are making it constantly dark and they maybe need some light to adjust their body clocks to a feeding time. Unless its a highly travelled area where there is constantly people walking by, why do you need to put a towel across the front?



The snakes are in the same room as I am, so I do this as a precaution. I might remove the towel and see if this makes any difference.


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## dickyknee (Jan 15, 2012)

Where abouts are you checking the temps , inside of the tub or on the heat panel / cord ?
If inside is that under the 50mm of breeders choice or on top of it ?
How are you offering the food , is it still warm ?


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> Where abouts are you checking the temps , inside of the tub or on the heat panel / cord ?
> If inside is that under the 50mm of breeders choice or on top of it ?
> How are you offering the food , is it still warm ?



I checked the temps inside the tub, and on top of the substrate as the snake gets it's temperatures from the substrate and ambient temperatures.
The food I offered today was still warm as it was freshly killed.


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## dickyknee (Jan 15, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> I checked the temps inside the tub, and on top of the substrate as the snake gets it's temperatures from the substrate and ambient temperatures.
> The food I offered today was still warm as it was freshly killed.



Remove the breeders choice , let them get direct heat from the heat source , make sure the bottom of the tub is 31-33 degrees , not the paper etc .


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## Darlyn (Jan 15, 2012)

Okay, am I missing something, Womas are from desert country, gets pretty cold out there.
Maybe you need a substrate they can burrow in so they can regulate their temps a bit themselves.
This isn't advice as I don't keep womas, but just a query really for some who knows?


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## GSXR_Boy (Jan 15, 2012)

Also to add to what Brett and Ramsayi said what sort of thermostat are you running? An on/off type? That combined with early morning temps doesn't really help the cause imo


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 15, 2012)

GSXR_Boy said:


> Also to add to what Brett and Ramsayi said what sort of thermostat are you running? An on/off type? That combined with early morning temps doesn't really help the cause imo



I'm using a Habistat thermostat, this type is a proportional control thermostat, so it's not your typical On/Off type thermostat. It's one of the more expensive models, and is a very reputable brand.


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## ricky_91 (Jan 15, 2012)

i feed mine chicken necks every now and ten they love them a mouse sounds very small for a near adult womb mine is eating small rats and she's not adult size yet


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 16, 2012)

Removed the mouse from the small female's tub this morning after waking up. T'was a failure. Felt like stomping on the mouse.

Next attempt will be in 3 weeks.

I will wait until the large female and the male have completed their shedding before I change the bedding, which I plan to do, and replace it with 5 sheets of newspaper.

How to stop snakes from tipping over their damned water bowls! This has been a problem since the get go. I have thought about drilling a small 4mm hole the side of each tub where the cool end is, and a 4mm hole at the top of a plastic bowl/cup and use a 4mm nylon bolt and suitable nut to keep them fastened to the enclosure so they cannot possibly be tipped over. I will do this soon, as I deem it is necessary, womas don't like damp or wet conditions, and tipping water bowls over when all you have is newspaper bedding is a sure way to get things at least damp if not soaking wet.

I feel this should work, and removing the breeder's choice will give the snakes better access to the floor and thus improved temps.

Not sure if it will ever get them to eat again, my fingers are definitely not crossed, it's been such a long time that I'm wondering if it will make any difference to their appetites, but maybe it will work, so I will try it anyway.


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## hrafna (Jan 16, 2012)

why not just use a heavier bowl for water? bolting the bowls onto the side of the enclosure seems abit extreme, esp when changing the water? cheap ceramic pet bowls have served me very well.


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## abnrmal91 (Jan 16, 2012)

Give them away to someone before you kill them/let them die. It's not the snakes fault its not eating. Sorry if that's harsh but in your original threads about this your opinion was "they where dud snakes and you didn't care if they died". Your words not mine.


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## dickyknee (Jan 16, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Removed the mouse from the small female's tub this morning after waking up. T'was a failure. Felt like stomping on the mouse.
> 
> Next attempt will be in 3 weeks.
> 
> ...



So what are the temps at night ? 
Did you cover the sides of the racks as suggested to help hold some heat in ?
Why are just leaving food over night , why not hold the rodent with tongs and offer it to them ?
Why wait 3 weeks ? why not wait till tomorrow night and offer ...


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 16, 2012)

abnrmal91 said:


> Give them away to someone before you kill them/let them die. It's not the snakes fault its not eating. Sorry if that's harsh but in your original threads about this your opinion was "they where dud snakes and you didn't care if they died". Your words not mine.



That was said in jest. Please stop bringing up old crap.



dickyknee said:


> So what are the temps at night ?
> Did you cover the sides of the racks as suggested to help hold some heat in ?
> Why are just leaving food over night , why not hold the rodent with tongs and offer it to them ?
> Why wait 3 weeks ? why not wait till tomorrow night and offer ...



I measured the temps at around 10pm, right before bed, and this morning around 6am.
Temps at 10pm where: hot end 30-31 degrees, cold end ~18 degrees.
6am: hot end 30-31 degrees, cold end ~17 degrees.

Yes, covered the sides with an old blanket, but will need to get some decent corflute/sarking sheet for proper insulation.
I will buy some snake tongs, I hadn't thought of that idea, but it should work. How were you feeding them before I took them?
Why wait 3 weeks? Someone advised me to do that or else I'd stress the snakes out, which will cause more problems and they may never eat again, well, rats anyway, since stressing them will associate the smell with stress and will then not touch them again. I don't know if this is exactly true, but it certainly seems plausible.

With temps I was advised to aim for 20 degrees or higher at the low end, so 17 degrees is definitely a bit too cold.

Of course, as per course of discussion - snakes can sometimes spontaneously go off their food, never to eat again (and obviously die if not assist-fed), and they can also spontaneously start eating again after a 2 year stretch without a single feed. Snakes can indeed do that. It is also a distinct possibility that I am just extremely extremely extremely unlucky. Yes, that is right.

I think some keepers from the USA ought to chime in here and see what they have to say about this phenomenon with snakes that suddenly stop eating for no apparent reason.


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## dickyknee (Jan 16, 2012)

So if you have no tongs , how the hell do you feed them ?? 
I offered them food with tongs , hold the rodent in the tongs and jiggled it in front of them till they grabbed it and ate it. 

As for rodent smell being associated with stress are you serious , what a load of crap , these snakes used to try eating their water bowls , me , or anything they could reach every time I opened their tubs. 
If you plan on waiting 3 weeks between each offering and you have not fed it in the last 6 months , how long do you think its going to take before it dies of starvation ?

So what are the night time temps ?


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 16, 2012)

Temps at 10pm where: hot end 30-31 degrees, cold end ~18 degrees.
6am: hot end 30-31 degrees, cold end ~17 degrees.

Male has only been off his food for 2 months, and the female has only been off food for about 4 months.

When they get to 6 months, then it's time to freak out, but before then there is still plenty of time to sort this out. Snakes can go for a year or more before they starve to death. Just ask any keeper in the USA. From memory one python went without food for 2+ years.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jan 16, 2012)

Benjamind, i just use a pair of bbq tongs, lots cheaper than rep specific tongs, not as pretty though...None of my snakes have probs with these, but check with Dickyknee first, as maybe i am doing it wrong. They are only $2 a pair...


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## Ramsayi (Jan 16, 2012)

Your cold end is way too low (try to get them to 25C) and like I wrote yesterday is most likely the cause of them not wanting to feed.Do not try anything at all until your minimum temps have been raised.Once you have the temps fixed give them a week or two to adjust then try to feed them.


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## dickyknee (Jan 16, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> I think some keepers from the USA ought to chime in here and see what they have to say about this phenomenon with snakes that suddenly stop eating for no apparent reason.



They would most likely say it's your husbandry ....


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jan 16, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Temps at 10pm where: hot end 30-31 degrees, cold end ~18 degrees.
> 6am: hot end 30-31 degrees, cold end ~17 degrees.
> 
> Male has only been off his food for 2 months, and the female has only been off food for about 4 months.
> ...




Why would keepers in the US have better info than people from australia?


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## veenarm (Jan 16, 2012)

my diamond went off her food for about 5-6months and she was only about a year old...
I didn't panick or do half the stuff your doing but however eventually what worked was I did have to live feed (1 poor fuzzy) - I didn't like doing it but it was my last choice...

The snake still ignored it UNTIL it walked over the snake and hit his belly area , then he immediately got him wrapped it and ate, ever since then all i do with the mice is dangle them and make them tap/hit her slightly and she goes for it !

My Stimmie wasn't feeding once due being burnt by head cord - and then he got a mouth problem that i cleared up with betadine - once they both healed for a bit he chowed down, but yeah heating seems to be a problem and in Canberra at least its summary and the cool ends have been getting quite cold! the diamond don't care but the stimmie sure does!! 

good luck!


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 16, 2012)

newtolovingsnake said:


> Why would keepers in the US have better info than people from australia?



Unsure, but people have said to ask them if all else fails. I think we've caught up, so it's probably not relevant anymore.


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## SamNabz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ben, I don't see the point of you bringing up US keepers and breeders advice..? End of the day you are talking about an Australian species and many knowledgeable Australian keepers/breeders, such as Ramsay and Brett are offering good advice. Your cold end, being at ~17c, is way too cold..

If you are not able to supply the necessary husbandry required to get these woma's feeding, then I would strongly suggest you sell the animals (priced as non-feeders) to a more experienced keeper.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Jan 16, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Unsure, but people have said to ask them if all else fails. I think we've caught up, so it's probably not relevant anymore.



my advice is to listen to dickyKnee, he is the original breeder and is a very knowledgeable man. the more opinions you get the more confused and stressed your gonna get... My offer still stands to Ben.

Sarah


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## Sutto82 (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm a bit insulted that you were asking for US keepers to back you up on an Australian forum, that to me is a slap in the face for the people here trying to help you when you were the one that asked. 

Why are you waiting 3 weeks in between feeds? My youngest diamond wouldn't eat for a period after I got her. I would attempt to feed her every couple of days and eventually she took the food, which I used tongs and waved in front of her face. I don't think the problem is with the snakes, I think there maybe something else going on. If you wish to pass them on then let me know, if not both then I'll take the female.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 16, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> So if you have no tongs , how the hell do you feed them ??
> I offered them food with tongs , hold the rodent in the tongs and jiggled it in front of them till they grabbed it and ate it.
> 
> As for rodent smell being associated with stress are you serious , what a load of crap , these snakes used to try eating their water bowls , me , or anything they could reach every time I opened their tubs.
> ...



I was the person who gave him that advice about not harassing them night after night, if he did that then I assumed they would associate him, the rat and the smell with being harassed, well that was my logic behind it as I have seen it happen with a couple of carpets before (very different species/genus I know).
I instead advised him to offer every couple of weeks and not to disturb in-between, however trying 2 nights in a row would be fine imo also.
I am not an expert on womas and Ben knows this, I was just trying to help.

Also giving them a rest period of a week or two between each feed attempt was advice I was given by a reputable breeder on here when I had a fussy Jungle who went of its food.
I am sorry if it was bad advice (it did work for me however).


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## Grogshla (Jan 16, 2012)

hey buddy
Just get some cardboard and cover the back and the sides of the click clack to darken it. Get a good hide for the hot and cold end and get your warm spot a few degrees warmer. Make sure your thermometer is on the bottom of the substrate try and stick it down if you can with blu tack or something but not stickytape. Offer the snake food every 3 days and try and find a smallish sized rodent (of the appropriate size that your snake should be eating) ie. find the smallest pinky mouse in the pinky mice bag. You may have to stir the snake up a bit by gently nudging him around the head or bump the mice against the snakes body to stir it up then place it an inch or so away from its face. Keep at it for a about 5 mins. I wouldn't do it for too much longer as it will cause more stress to the snake then good. Also get a tooth pick and puncture the mice head so the smell entices the snake to feed. Best of luck mate. Just remember the snake is stressed and needs some security before it gets feeding for you. Also be sure to listen to dickyknee he is a breeder of quality reptiles, has tons of experience and is a great bloke. Best of luck mate.


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## dickyknee (Jan 16, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> I was the person who gave him that advice about not harassing them night after night, if he did that then I assumed they would associate him, the rat and the smell with being harassed, well that was my logic behind it as I have seen it happen with a couple of carpets before (very different species/genus I know).
> I instead advised him to offer every couple of weeks and not to disturb in-between, however trying 2 nights in a row would be fine imo also.
> I am not an expert on womas and Ben knows this, I was just trying to help.



Sorry , no offense intended 



dickyknee said:


> Sorry , no offense intended



Offering a few times a week will not cause any issues , but he still needs to sort out night temps , feeding techniques , get some tongs etc


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 16, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> Sorry , no offense intended
> 
> 
> 
> Offering a few times a week will not cause any issues , but he still needs to sort out night temps , feeding techniques , get some tongs etc



I am never talking to you again!!!!! *Geckoman runs of into bush screaming obscenities*

LOL


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## junglepython2 (Jan 16, 2012)

Have you tried dangling the food in front of the snake at all? if not I dare say this is your main issue. Some snakes especially younger ones need some movement to trigger a feeding response, if you dont have tongs use tweezers or your fingers.


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## onthillside (Jan 16, 2012)

Try dipping the nose of the rodent into some egg then place it in overnight. Has worked for me in the past.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 16, 2012)

Grogshla said:


> Just remember the snake is stressed and needs some security before it gets feeding for you.



Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. I don't think the snakes are stressed at all, just that maybe the temps are too low, so I'll correct the temp fluctuations at night, and let them settle for a few days and try again. I may have to just use my A/C..after all, that's what it's for, so I might as well use it. Fancy turning on A/C during summer. Absolutely stark naked crazy weather we've been having, maybe that's why they won't eat. I agree that the temps are much too low, by about 8 degrees on the cold end, so fixing any possible husbandry issues might just do the trick. If not, well, I will have to part with them.


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## hrafna (Jan 17, 2012)

After reading this thread, I realised it took 6 pages of info from a variety of experienced keepers for you to finally realise it is your husbandry as Rams mentioned at the beginning of this thread. If only you had paid attention in the first place, I am sure this would have gotten your animals sorted way faster. But after all, as Rams said, you can lead a horse to water......

Regards
Hugsta - on Hrafnas account.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

hrafna said:


> After reading this thread, I realised it took 6 pages of info from a variety of experienced keepers for you to finally realise it is your husbandry as Rams mentioned at the beginning of this thread. If only you had paid attention in the first place, I am sure this would have gotten your animals sorted way faster. But after all, as Rams said, you can lead a horse to water......



I wouldn't be so quick to draw conclusions. You are probably right, but what if you are wrong? If, after I address every possible husbandry issue and have ever potential problem worked out, and give it enough time, and the snakes still do not feed, then what are you going to say? That it's still my fault?

It is entirely possible that snakes can simply stop eating - for absolutely no apparent reason - it has happened before.

I will try everything that is possible to rectify any problems that I may be causing - ie, low temps at night on the cool end. I think the air temperature may be just as important as the surface temperature, so I turned on my A/C heating at night using the timer function, and kept it at 24 degrees, that should mean the snakes are getting sufficient air temps. I bought some tongs and will be using them next feed attempt, which is today, for the small female.

Of course, I will not be giving up any time soon. As above, if everything fails, then I will have to assume it's the snakes have stopped eating of their own accord. As above, sometimes snakes can just simply stop eating even if they have been good feeders, and it does not mean they are dud snakes, it means that they've simply stopped eating - some people stop eating too, it's called anorexia...it is a distinct possibility and it cannot be ruled out, and I know this may upset some people here but suck it up, we don't live in a perfect world, any assumption that we do is utterly absurd.

As the old saying goes, sometimes ***** happens...and sometimes there is nothing you can do about.

We'll see what happens...that's all I can say from here on in. I will do everything I can, but if that fails, then it's basically down to bad luck.


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## thomasssss (Jan 17, 2012)

good luck with the tongs hope they feed for you


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## hrafna (Jan 17, 2012)

last time i let hugsta near my laptop to look at aps!  thanks daz.
but i agree with what was said. stop trying to find some other excuse for why these animals have stopped feeding and work on what you can control. you are right, sometimes snakes go off their food but it is not anorexia, it is generally called brumation. i may be relatively new to this hobby and i have alot to learn but i am not an idiot either. reading all your posts has me wondering about breeding somewhere down the line. gotta feel bad for the 2 individuals you called out in previous posts!


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

hrafna said:


> stop trying to find some other excuse for why these animals have stopped feeding and work on what you can control. you are right, sometimes snakes go off their food but it is not anorexia, it is generally called brumation.



Well, I am controlling the things that I am able to. I'm not making up any excuses, just very stressed that my snakes hadn't eaten, that's all. You know that it can be very nerve wracking when this happens. I think those who said temperatures were the problem are probably right, and I've rectified those, will confirm that the temps are stable tonight, to be sure, and will report back tomorrow about the temps I measured. This morning the temps were about 24 degrees, which was right on for my A/C, so that should be a good sign that things have evened out. It will be a matter of time before I know with absolute certainty as to whether it works, but it should make the snakes more comfortable.

Also spoke to a few friends who live up here and they all agree that we haven't really had much of a summer so far, maybe one or two relatively hot days, but the nights are definitely more like we get in autumn or spring rather than summer, so temps are most likely the culprit. I've found I've had to use 2 extra blankets for the bed which in past summers was a pretty rare event.


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## hrafna (Jan 17, 2012)

so all the threads relating to this topic and animals, all the "my husbandry is perfect" comments and calling on the americans for back up could have been avoided if you had just listened to a few experienced people at the very begining?


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## hugsta (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to draw conclusions. You are probably right, but what if you are wrong? If, after I address every possible husbandry issue and have ever potential problem worked out, and give it enough time, and the snakes still do not feed, then what are you going to say? That it's still my fault?
> 
> It is entirely possible that snakes can simply stop eating - for absolutely no apparent reason - it has happened before.
> 
> ...



You can write as pretty a post as you like, but seriously......
The snakes most likely think it is winter and have stopped eating as it is too cold. So much for your perfect husbandry skills you apparently had at the start of this thread.
No, animals don't stop feeding for no apparent reason, we don't stop eating for no apparent reason. Anarexia is a terrible disease, not 'no apparent reaon' to just stop eating. Next minute you will be telling is they are suffering severe depression and are suicidal. Just because we don't fully understand the reasons an animal may stop feeding does not make it 'no apparent reason' to do so. We do know that most animals will not feed when temps are incorrect though. So maybe you need to 'suck it up' and stop making excuses for yourself.
True, sometimes ***** does happen, but in the case of these animals, it is the ***** that happened to them when you bought them. Dickynee is a good breeder and has quality animals, the size of these animals when you got them is enough to indicate this and the fact you seem to make an excuse for everything they are doing seems to a problem you have.
To purchase a couple of snakes that are doing everything right upon sale and then go downhill after you have had them for a while seems like a bit of bad luck for the snakes, not for you, after all, they will die if you don't get your act together.

Cheers
Daz


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## SYNeR (Jan 17, 2012)

I've got a hatchling woma python, and considering how voracious they are made out to be, i was surprised mine doesn't
really have a strong feeding response and is what you would call 'fussy' (relatively speaking).

I have to dangle a mouse/rat in front of her for several minutes sometimes. It takes a few minutes for her to become curious.
Eventually she'll follow the mouse/rat as I move it around the enclosure.. Sometimes she'll strike & coil, other times not.. At which point, I leave it there and find she's eaten it after checking a few minutes later.

But, her feeding response is much better with quail..

My point being (as others have said), you may have to make the meal look enticing. You can't expect to just chuck a dead rodent in there and the snake to eat it up.. I'm pretty sure if I did that with my 3 snakes, they wouldn't have eaten for a while now.
Go the BBQ tongs... extra long.. also caters for jungles with a massive appetite while keeping you at a safe distance.


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## Sutto82 (Jan 17, 2012)

Where are you located Ben? Wondering where it is you live that is so cold the animals think its winter. What about a thermostat? If I wanted I can control the heat in my enclosures to make it think it's summer all year round.


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## -Katana- (Jan 17, 2012)

I can only feel sorry for DickyKnee who's no doubt worried sick he's sold his animals to such an inept keeper.

By rights the animals should go back to him if you're going to pass them on to someone else so he can stop worrying about them.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> I bought some tongs and will be using them next feed attempt, which is today, for the small female.



Don't try and feed them yet.Like I wrote earlier get the temps up and give it a week or so then try to feed.Give them time to adjust to the new,correct temps.


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## dickyknee (Jan 17, 2012)

-Katana- said:


> I can only feel sorry for DickyKnee who's no doubt worried sick he's sold his animals to such an inept keeper.
> 
> By rights the animals should go back to him if you're going to pass them on to someone else so he can stop worrying about them.



I would love to take them back and get them back on track .... But I cant imagine Ben giving them up in a hurry.


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## -Katana- (Jan 17, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> I would love to take them back and get them back on track .... But I cant imagine Ben giving them up in a hurry.



If that's the case then it shows a lot of selfishness and immaturity on his part.


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## Aussie-Pride (Jan 17, 2012)

and where of n racing on page 7 will we make the double digits!


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

Sutto82 said:


> Where are you located Ben? Wondering where it is you live that is so cold the animals think its winter. What about a thermostat? If I wanted I can control the heat in my enclosures to make it think it's summer all year round.



I'm on the Central Coast, precisely in Green Point, which has a reputation for being pretty hot and humid in summer. But, as some have said, the night time temps might be affecting the air temps, which can also influence the snake's behaviour and make them think it's too cold.

Maybe it's just that this summer hasn't been too crash hot, and maybe that's why the night time temps are dropping too low and switching them off.
But, as I've said before, my large female has never ever refused a single feed. So, that makes it all very interesting. Maybe this female isn't as sensitive to temp changes as the other two, but of course, how do I know that? I can only make assumptions - that the temps really are too cold and need to be upped at night. I've turned on A/C at 24degrees at night, so that should help.



-Katana- said:


> If that's the case then it shows a lot of selfishness and immaturity on his part.



No, it means I am going to see if I can fix whatever the temperatures are, to bring them to more stable levels.
I am keeping my snakes properly, there is plenty of heat being provided at the hot end, so it's a cool end problem - which A/C at 24 degrees at night should soon fix.

Of course, you're going to have a go at me. Who the hell hasn't done that already? You're the next cab on the rank.



dickyknee said:


> I would love to take them back and get them back on track .... But I cant imagine Ben giving them up in a hurry.



Question is, if I let you take them and get them feeding for me, will I ever see them again? I don't like my chances. I would not accept any refunds as I don't believe this is any of your fault. But if you did take them, and you were able to get them eating again, and knowing that I'd addressed any husbandry issues (which I've begun doing), then would you be happy to return them to me after the 6-month holding period? I would happily pay for the keeping costs, rats, food, etc.

You did say to me in a private message that the female had refused a feed right before I got her - and she wasn't going into shed either because she never shed until late November. So, how am I to know what really happened there? As in, why did she refuse that feed before I took her? That's a big question, and one that, for better or worse, we will likely never see an answer to. As said before, it isn't your fault. But the fact of the matter is, she never, ever, accepted anything I gave her since I got her.


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## -Katana- (Jan 17, 2012)

Child, you are deluded if you think you are keeping your snakes properly - hence the non-feeding issues.

As it stands at the moment and considering what has come to light on this thread I know that if I had snakes for sale I wouldn't sell to you.


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## Exotic_Doc (Jan 17, 2012)

Ben, where do you live? I am honestly prepared to take the time and drive to you if you need it.... And dont listen to anyone that says give your pets away or sell them your going to kill them. Right now if indeed the time you have given is correct they wont die, but you do need help or they will. So you just ask for help and i am prepared to come help you. I am not saying im the best or the smartest or whatever but i am prepared to do what i can instead of egging you to sell animals you obviously love and care for.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

-Katana- said:


> Child, you are deluded if you think you are keeping your snakes properly - hence the non-feeding issues..



If that's the case, then please do explain why my big female has never ever refused a single feed?

Please, oh wise man, tell me why this female has never ever refused a feed?


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## dickyknee (Jan 17, 2012)

EDIT: Never mind , I am kinda over it ...


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## Exotic_Doc (Jan 17, 2012)

-Katana- said:


> Child, you are deluded if you think you are keeping your snakes properly - hence the non-feeding issues.
> 
> As it stands at the moment and considering what has come to light on this thread I know that if I had snakes for sale I wouldn't sell to you.



Arghhh.... See he is actually seeking help and advice, thats alot more than can be said about people who arent caring for their animals properly. He is actually taking in all the advice and turning them into reality. Why is he a child? selfish? Immature? How are people ever going to learn if they just give their animals away? The snakes at this moment arent in mortal danger and i am sure if they were and he was told so, he wouldnt sit there watch them die.


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## Aussie-Pride (Jan 17, 2012)

oh this thread is starting to get ugly popcorn time


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## Ramsayi (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> If that's the case, then please do explain why my big female has never ever refused a single feed?
> 
> Please, oh wise man, tell me why this female has never ever refused a feed?



Could be any number of reasons ranging from an animal that originated from a different area and better adapted to cooler temps,could be that she has a bigger body mass and can conserve heat better and for longer periods (overnight) and any number of reasons in between.Your insinuation that the big female has never refused a feed therefore nothing is wrong is a bit of a worry considering 2 out of 3 wont feed for you.


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## Exotic_Doc (Jan 17, 2012)

Aussie-Pride said:


> oh this thread is starting to get ugly popcorn time



OOooops i just see Dickyknee's latest post, so i will walk away slowly now * incoming rocket fire pew pew* 
I understand you upset Dickyknee i honestly do, and if i were you i would be feeling exactly like you are right now. But these animals need help right now, and my offer still stands. I am prepared to take all the advice given and give them a go if Ben wants it seeing as alot of people now are upset maybe a middle man would be helpful? Just saying.
Btw Aussie chuck me a bag wid ya  LOL


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## Aussie-Pride (Jan 17, 2012)

Exotic_Doc said:


> OOooops i just see Dickyknee's latest post, so i will walk away slowly now * incoming rocket fire pew pew*
> 
> Btw Aussie chuck me a bag wid ya  LOL



No problems mate sharing is caring


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> Could be any number of reasons ranging from an animal that originated from a different area and better adapted to cooler temps,could be that she has a bigger body mass and can conserve heat better and for longer periods (overnight) and any number of reasons in between.Your insinuation that the big female has never refused a feed therefore nothing is wrong is a bit of a worry considering 2 out of 3 wont feed for you.



Right, I've taken that in. What you are saying is very likely to be true, so keeping the temps more stable at the low end is wise, and hopefully soon that will mean they start eating for me again - if that is indeed what the heart of the problem is. Time will tell, but the cold end temps will be kept artificially at say 24 degrees at night from here on in.

When I go away for say 3 days, say to visit relatives, I usually put the A/C in "economy cooling" mode with the temperature set at 31 degrees, with minimal fan settings to keep the place from overheating. It can literally get up to 45 degrees in here and that is a bit of a worry.

The insulation sounds like a good idea for the rack system, so I've decided to replace the old blankets with some foil insulation (some sort of sarking sheet) to keep the temps within the rack more stable, which should help resolve the problem too. The blankets are a stopgap measure only, and aren't terribly efficient, so that will have to be fixed very soon. I'm going to buy some adhesive backed hook so that I can just hook the insulation sheet around the rack, with the hooks fixed at the top level of the rack. 3 hooks on each side and 2 hooks at the back.


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## hrafna (Jan 17, 2012)

Exotic_Doc said:


> Arghhh.... See he is actually seeking help and advice, thats alot more than can be said about people who arent caring for their animals properly. He is actually taking in all the advice and turning them into reality. Why is he a child? selfish? Immature? How are people ever going to learn if they just give their animals away? The snakes at this moment arent in mortal danger and i am sure if they were and he was told so, he wouldnt sit there watch them die.


 i still fail to see how seeking advice and help from people when every bit of advice was recieved with excuses and a brick wall, yes he has finally pulled his finger out and done something but how long has this saga been going on? even look at this thread it took 6 (?) pages to get an actual temp reading, all because in his opinion the husbandry is perfect. advice and help has to be taken on board and accepted, rather than an ongoing saga that has lasted month(s)


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

hrafna said:


> i still fail to see how seeking advice and help from people when every bit of advice was recieved with excuses and a brick wall, yes he has finally pulled his finger out and done something but how long has this saga been going on? even look at this thread it took 6 (?) pages to get an actual temp reading, all because in his opinion the husbandry is perfect. advice and help has to be taken on board and accepted, rather than an ongoing saga that has lasted month(s)



It already has been taken on board. All of it was accepted - including the insulation and I've even got some ideas of my own - like using a second set of heating panels under the racks. Right now I've got panels under the hot end of the racks, but I may consider buying some panels for the cool end and have them set at 25 degrees. I already have a second thermostat (a MicroClimate B1 model - a top of the range thermostat) which is currently being unused, so maybe this idea will work. Any comments?


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## Darlyn (Jan 17, 2012)

This thread is hurting my eyes and reminds me of catch 22


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> It already has been taken on board. All of it was accepted - including the insulation and I've even got some ideas of my own - like using a second set of heating panels under the racks. Right now I've got panels under the hot end of the racks, but I may consider buying some panels for the cool end and have them set at 25 degrees. I already have a second thermostat (a MicroClimate B1 model - a top of the range thermostat) which is currently being unused, so maybe this idea will work. Any comments?



I have never heard of anyone needing to cool the cool end.
Generally the cool end should be effected enough by the hot end to not warrant any additional heating.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> I have never heard of anyone needing to cool the cool end.
> Generally the cool end should be effected enough by the hot end to not warrant any additional heating.



Sounds about right to me. So, I wonder if the insulation surrouding the rack will be enough to keep the cool end from getting a bit too cold?


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

It will be, imo if the cold end is too cold then the hot end must be as well


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> It will be, imo if the cold end is too cold then the hot end must be as well



I'm told the colder air from the night/early morning affects the air temperature, which I'm told is just as important as the surface temperature of the floor. So insulating will more than likely resolve the temperature problems. I thought these rack systems were designed in such a way as to maintain a good thermal gradient, but of course I could be entirely wrong on that.

I just shot a PM to ( no need for name), but on an unrelated matter, may not be relevant to the context of this discussion. I am now of the belief that the male suddenly stopped eating because of the wild volatility in the air temperatures which did start in November - may have confused him and led him to believe it was getting cold again - which it wasn't, but I think the snake got confused/stressed by the temperature swings - and the insulation should help put an end to the temperature swings at least as far as the air temperature within the rack is concerned.


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## GellyAmbert (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> When I go away for say 3 days, say to visit relatives, I usually put the A/C in "economy cooling" mode with the temperature set at 31 degrees, with minimal fan settings to keep the place from overheating. It can literally get up to 45 degrees in here and that is a bit of a worry.



hey ben.. 
most a/c systems have 4 basic modes/functions.. "heating", "cooling", "automatic", and "fan only"... depending on the brand/model u may have a few more and some dont have "fan only".... anywho.. my advise for when u go away would be set a/c to approx. 26 degrees in automatic mode.... your heatcord/heatmat/whatever will keep the warm end ok and automatic mode will heat or cool as required to keep the room at a nice 26 C.... I wouldn't do it all the time but if your not there its the only way you can stop the room both overheating during the day and getting too cold at night... 

just my 2 cents..
Geoff...


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

PythonApprentice said:


> hey ben..
> most a/c systems have 4 basic modes/functions.. "heating", "cooling", "automatic", and "fan only"...



Automatic - not this one...it's "I Feel", and really it isn't automatic because if the temperature changes the mode (which it selects when the button is pressed) stays the same, and has to be pressed again. I will not buy another Mitsubishi air con, unless it has a true auto function, which this pieces of rubbish doesn't have.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes I understand about air temps vs surface temps, I am just pointing out that if the cold end is too cold whether it be the surface and/or air then the hot end would be too cold as well as an adequately heated hot end should effect the cold end enough for it to be more than suitable


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## junglepython2 (Jan 17, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> Yes I understand about air temps vs surface temps, I am just pointing out that if the cold end is too cold whether it be the surface and/or air then the hot end would be too cold as well as an adequately heated hot end should effect the cold end enough for it to be more than suitable



I think he is talking about using the A/C for its heat function...


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## FAY (Jan 17, 2012)

After reading this thread..my 2cents
Why others suggest you try scenting etc when these animals were already feeding is beyond me.....you are only going to go back to square one...
Get tongs and do what dicky says
Get your temps correct and take notice and do what Rams recommends....


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> Yes I understand about air temps vs surface temps, I am just pointing out that if the cold end is too cold whether it be the surface and/or air then the hot end would be too cold as well as an adequately heated hot end should effect the cold end enough for it to be more than suitable



Point taken. So, perhaps after I've properly insulated the rack system from the sides and back, maybe upping the temps at the hot end will mean better temps at the cool end?
If the hot end is currently at 33 and the cool end is around the 20 mark give or take 2 degrees, which is too low, then would upping the hot end to say 37 would mean that the cool end is around the 24 degree mark? I believe the cool end would be even warmer than 24 in this case because of the thermodynamics involved once temperature crosses a certain threshold with some plastics, particularly the plastics that the tubs are made from which I presume is ABS and ABS does have good thermodynamics in this regard.



FAY said:


> After reading this thread..my 2cents
> Why others suggest you try scenting etc when these animals were already feeding is beyond me.....you are only going to go back to square one...
> Get tongs and do what dicky says
> Get your temps correct and take notice and do what Rams recommends....



This is what I am doing, so I have taken on board all the advice pointed out in this thread so far. In the past I've come up with theories of my own (pertaining to snakes associating food with stress), but will nevertheless keep to the advice strictly for the foreseeable future.

For what it's worth, I will add that the female refused a feed just before it came here (and, it wasn't going into shed......?), only refused once though, not sure if it brings another variable into the equation, but it is worth mentioning because I feel it is serious enough to warrant further investigation. Not sure if the male was a direct sibling, I don't remember, I took them as a pair but they looked different enough to assume they were not direct siblings.


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## Darlyn (Jan 17, 2012)

Ben, you overthink things.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 17, 2012)

Jeebus just raise the minimum temps and make sure they don't drop too low late night/early morning.Wait a week or so once that's sorted then try and feed them.It's not rocket surgery and their is no need to over complicate things....Bottom line if temps are too low they wont eat.Good luck I'm done.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> For what it's worth, I will add that the female refused a feed just before it came here (and, it wasn't going into shed......?), only refused once though, not sure if it brings another variable into the equation, but it is worth mentioning because I feel it is serious enough to warrant further investigation. Not sure if the male was a direct sibling, I don't remember, I took them as a pair but they looked different enough to assume they were not direct siblings.



I see what you are trying to do here and all I can say is dont


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

Darlyn said:


> Ben, you overthink things.



Of course I do. But wouldn't you if you were going through the same problems especially if you were confused at the same time?
You can blame my mother for that though, she was that type. My younger full blood sister is the same as I am, so it's obviously something I inherited.



Geckoman said:


> I see what you are trying to do here and all I can say is dont



Why not? It's a fact, and I'm not going to deny it. I'm not trying to harm anyone, all I am doing is point out a truth, that, for better or worse, should be known. That female refused a feed right before she came here. That is the undisputed truth.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

And what about the 2nd snake that was feeding?


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## Darlyn (Jan 17, 2012)

Ben, you should get off the forum, stay away from your snakes and kick back and read a good book.
Good luck, go and relax mate.


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 17, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> And what about the 2nd snake that was feeding?



Was likely the temperature changes that did that, but the female never ate for me from the very start, whereas the male was eating. So as for the male it is entirely my fault. As for the female, maybe that's my fault too, but I can't be 100% sure of that, there is no way I can ever know why she refused that feed before I collected her. Noone knows that, so it isn't anyone's fault. I don't blame anyone. Just sometimes these things happen. Knowing these things happened, of course, is important, particularly when collecting the animals. Had I known that I would have insisted it be kept back until it had eaten again as I presume an animal that refuses a feed often is a sign of going into shed, so they should be kept back at any rate and later collected once they've shed (and eaten).



Darlyn said:


> Ben, you should get off the forum, stay away from your snakes and kick back and read a good book.
> Good luck, go and relax mate.



Good advice. Will do. It's getting time for bed anyway, 10pm it's lights out


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Was likely the temperature changes that did that, but the female never ate for me from the very start, whereas the male was eating. So as for the male it is entirely my fault. As for the female, maybe that's my fault too, but I can't be 100% sure of that, there is no way I can ever know why she refused that feed before I collected her. Noone knows that, so it isn't anyone's fault. I don't blame anyone. Just sometimes these things happen. Knowing these things happened, of course, is important, particularly when collecting the animals. Had I known that I would have insisted it be kept back until it had eaten again as I presume an animal that refuses a feed often is a sign of going into shed, so they should be kept back at any rate and later collected once they've shed (and eaten).
> 
> 
> 
> Good advice. Will do. It's getting time for bed anyway, 10pm it's lights out



I dont think you would have refused the snake if you knew that info


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## hrafna (Jan 17, 2012)

my md refused to eat for 2 weeks, i did something different with how i prepare my rodents and he was fine ever since then, he ate when i dipped the mice in the hot water i used for defrosting, but once i changed over to rats he has never refused a feed. my bhp i got from snake ranch has refused food several times while still at sr but has never once refused food with me. every now and then isn't too much of a worry but to go for several months something is up and to try and belittle dickyknee is just wrong. if you are not trying to belittle his name then i am sorry but that is how it is coming across. i would love to buy some stimmies off him one day and i have full faith in him and any animal he would sell to me. btw i don't know him personally, just spoken to him a few times but some whom i trust have spoken very highly which just re-enforces my initial opinion of him. goodluck ben, more for the animal's sake than your own, as i think you really need an attitude adjustment!


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## dickyknee (Jan 17, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Of course I do. But wouldn't you if you were going through the same problems especially if you were confused at the same time?
> You can blame my mother for that though, she was that type. My younger full blood sister is the same as I am, so it's obviously something I inherited.
> 
> 
> ...



The female was on shed when you got her , you were told it was on shed , you even pointed it out ...
My head is spinning , one minute its your fault , then its my fault , then its the temps , now its cause it was on shed , then it was the Americans fault , then it was my fault again , you just never stop ...

Seriously I would like to take the snakes back and offer you a full refund just to make you stop and go away.


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## -Katana- (Jan 17, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> The female was on shed when you got her , you were told it was on shed , you even pointed it out ...
> My head is spinning , one minute its your fault , then its my fault , then its the temps , now its cause it was on shed , then it was the Americans fault , then it was my fault again , you just never stop ...
> 
> Seriously I would like to take the snakes back and offer you a full refund just to make you stop and go away.




A- freakin'-men!


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## IgotFrogs (Jan 17, 2012)

I personally have brought snakes amongst other things from dicky nothing has ever NOT EVER skipped a beat when I've bought from him i have always found him to be one of the most helpful wonderful breeders to deal with i personally think you need to sort out your temps .... if your handling how often ... and how you're offering the food .... its alright to sit back saying you're taking onboard what people are saying but you just keep rehashing things ....Check your temps boost them if need be .... Also check temps with a temperature probe dont just go off what the thermostat says ..... Offer it to the snake by jiggling it in front of them to encourage them to get the feed instinct going .....dont handle them for a while less cleaning is needed till you get them feeding well ....all the things you've already been told ..... but i must say you're trying to drag this breeder that I've dealt with's name through the mud is now getting very old!


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## Khagan (Jan 17, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> Seriously I would like to take the snakes back and offer you a full refund just to make you stop and go away.



I'd say take up Dicky's offer, and with the refund buy a pet rock.


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## thomasssss (Jan 17, 2012)

Khagan said:


> I'd say take up Dicky's offer, and with the refund buy a pet rock.


ive got a piece of sandstone going for $500 makes a great pet doesn't get to big really placid never bitten and ill throw in a free enclosure


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 18, 2012)

dickyknee said:


> The female was on shed when you got her , you were told it was on shed , you even pointed it out ...
> My head is spinning , one minute its your fault , then its my fault , then its the temps , now its cause it was on shed , then it was the Americans fault , then it was my fault again , you just never stop ...
> 
> Seriously I would like to take the snakes back and offer you a full refund just to make you stop and go away.



Brett, sorry, I'm not trying to discredit you or anyone else, but I wish I had known that she had missed a feed as I would have then advised you to hold her back until she had eaten. These things do happen. None of this was anyone's fault, and it wasn't your fault either.

I'm only doing whatever I can to fix anything on my side.

Time is still on my side, but if I can't get her back on track by March I will consider returning her. I'm not trying to have a go at you.


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## GSXR_Boy (Jan 18, 2012)

Where have the snakes been spending most of their time? ( sorry if this has already been covered ) Hot side? Cool side?


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## dickyknee (Jan 18, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Brett, sorry, I'm not trying to discredit you or anyone else, but I wish I had known that she had missed a feed as I would have then advised you to hold her back until she had eaten. These things do happen. None of this was anyone's fault, and it wasn't your fault either.
> 
> I'm only doing whatever I can to fix anything on my side.
> 
> Time is still on my side, but if I can't get her back on track by March I will consider returning her. I'm not trying to have a go at you.



The offer stands for one week from today, I am not waiting another few months for you to muck around with them , you get them back to me where you picked them up from , I will return your money.
If you don't take up the offer then I am done with it all , no more offers etc 

And yes you are trying to discredit me , it is very clear to any one reading your dribble.
Any way best of luck.


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## SYNeR (Jan 18, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> I'm on the Central Coast, precisely in Green Point, which has a reputation for being pretty hot and humid in summer. But, as some have said, the night time temps might be affecting the air temps, which can also influence the snake's behaviour and make them think it's too cold.



Hello from across the lake 

I'm at Fishing Point on the water.. My Jungle and Woma have been feeding fine. I tried to feed my Stimson Python last night, but no go.. He's more interested in coming out and climbing up my arm. He's in a nice wooden enclosure and temps are fine.. He's always been a bit fussy, though.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 18, 2012)

SYNeR said:


> Hello from across the lake
> 
> I'm at Fishing Point on the water.. My Jungle and Woma have been feeding fine. I tried to feed my Stimson Python last night, but no go.. He's more interested in coming out and climbing up my arm. He's in a nice wooden enclosure and temps are fine.. He's always been a bit fussy, though.


Your not the only one on the Coast who has snakes that are feeding fine regardless of the weather lol


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## Boidae (Jan 18, 2012)

I would take Dicky's offer mate. Trying to get them feeding might just be more trouble than it's worth. 
I really don't know what's happening with the snakes right now, where they are been kept, what their actual temps are etc.
(Please don't try to explain it again, I have already read through 10 pages of people arguing, and I don't really care)
It is obvious that Dickyknee takes a lot of pride in his snakes, I'm sure he has raised them perfectly and put a lot of effort into them.
I can understand how he would be getting annoyed about how someone is saying his snakes were 'duds' when, with all due respect it is most likely your fault they are not feeding. 
Learn from this mistake, make inprovements, do more research, talk to lots of experienced woma keepers, and when you're ready maybe give it another shot in a couple of years. 
I am convinced that something is wrong with your husbandry, it is probably something you have not even considered. 
If it is stressing you both out too much, it really is best for you, the snakes and Dickyknee if you return them. 

Dave.


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## Aussie-Pride (Jan 18, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> ive got a piece of sandstone going for $500 makes a great pet doesn't get to big really placid never bitten and ill throw in a free enclosure



What do you feed it?


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## thomasssss (Jan 18, 2012)

Aussie-Pride said:


> What do you feed it?



at the moment hes on quail but im trying to get him on to rats as quail can be a little hard to find at times pm me for details


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## hrafna (Jan 18, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> at the moment hes on quail but im trying to get him on to rats as quail can be a little hard to find at times pm me for details


 i have a granite rock and would love to try breeding them together for a sandstone granite. what sex is yours?


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## Pinoy (Jan 18, 2012)

I've bought a few things from Dicky and he's always been very nice and helpful. The two snakes (bredlis) I got from him were eating machines, almost on par with my woma and bhp. They came with feeding records and were of a decent size for there age so there was no doubt they had eaten a few things. One of them even ate the first day I got him. 
The only problem I had which had nothing to do with Dicky was getting the female onto rats. She would eat mice first time everytime but didn't want anything to do with rats. Then one day she took one and never looked back. 
Maybe try feeding somethin else or change your feeding technique if there's still no resolutiom after fixing your husbandry issues.


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## thomasssss (Jan 18, 2012)

hrafna said:


> i have a granite rock and would love to try breeding them together for a sandstone granite. what sex is yours?


no thanks i don't like crossbreeding my rocks im a purist i fear one day i will never be able to find a pure sandstone rock so im keeping my line pure


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## hrafna (Jan 18, 2012)

thomasssss said:


> no thanks i don't like crossbreeding my rocks im a purist i fear one day i will never be able to find a pure sandstone rock so im keeping my line pure



fair enough. i wish you all the best with your future projects. i guess i will just have to breed my granite to my quartz or marble. crossbreeding and hybridisation of rocks will be part of the future. there is room for both but i will not go for one of those concrete lumps, they keep trembling and rolling over!


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## ricky_91 (Jan 18, 2012)

try chicken necks mine love them they get them once a month


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## saximus (Jan 18, 2012)

hrafna said:


> fair enough. i wish you all the best with your future projects. i guess i will just have to breed my granite to my quartz or marble. crossbreeding and hybridisation of rocks will be part of the future. there is room for both but i will not go for one of those concrete lumps, they keep trembling and rolling over!



There's something very familiar about this conversation but I just can't put my finger on it...


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## GellyAmbert (Jan 18, 2012)

benjamind2010 said:


> Automatic - not this one...it's "I Feel", and really it isn't automatic because if the temperature changes the mode (which it selects when the button is pressed) stays the same, and has to be pressed again. I will not buy another Mitsubishi air con, unless it has a true auto function, which this pieces of rubbish doesn't have.



yeh i've seen those.. they annoy the crap outta me..... so in that case I would still go for a lower cooling temp.... but yeh leaves u stuck for night time lows.. oh well.. I guess we are only talking a couple of days in this case... I dont know if it will matter.. but I'm guessing not..??


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## benjamind2010 (Jan 18, 2012)

Because things have been going for such a long time I will have to accept full responsibility for what has become of it, and yes, it is my fault because I didn't contact Brett much earlier, and that's what I should have done regarding the female. The male stopping it's feeding in November was entirely my fault because I wasn't paying enough attention to the volatile weather and because my place doesn't have much in the way of insulation the night temps dropped a bit too far and he got tricked into thinking it was winter. Yes I live in a dogbox, but that's just how it is, and that isn't anyone else's fault or concern.

I'm sure if I'd contacted Brett that things would be different. I will have to accept responsibility for them. I've found someone who is willing to help me out with my womas, and he is genuine about it, so I'm willing to work through this, I certainly don't want to give them up, I love them too much to do that, they are my pride and joy.

I will uphold Brett's credibility. I have no doubt that Brett is a decent man. You have nothing to worry about if you buy anything from him. I only really annoyed him because I didn't stay in touch with him when I should have. So it is basically my problem now.

As said, someone is helping me out, so that's a good step in the right direction. There is a good chance things will work out and they will eat again - they are womas and they usually have a strong appetite, so if they get started again I will be most happy. 

I will post news on any progress.


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