# Top end mulga



## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

OMG third attempt at posting this thread!

I haven't seen a wild one of these in the NT since the toad moved in, which in Oenpelli was over 10 years ago. 

Unfortunately this fella had been shot early the morning that i was told about it. I didn't beleive it was a mulga until i saw it. Couldn't beleive it! Atleast they weren't extinct here on Sunday the 21st lol. 

It measured 2.15m with a little bit of the tail missing. Now it's living in my freezer. From the records i can dig up this is the fourth official recording in the toad affected areas since 2008.

Dodgey pics sorry, the mozzies were drilling me something chronic!


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## FlippinBirdies (Aug 23, 2011)

So what will this mean in terms of conservation attempts there???


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

There are no concervation attempts, atleast in regards to mulgas. It does leave open the possibility that there are a few more that are still living in the area but i see that as pretty unlikely. If it was a young animal i would have hopes that they are still breeding, i don't know how quick they grow but i would think this fella would have been a bit of a dinosaur.

As far as i know there have been three found in Darwin since 2008, but Darwin doesn't really compare to a place like this because we have pretty well managed to keep the toads out of populated areas. Dave in Katherine (which is a more comparable area to Oenpelli than Darwin is) hasn't ever found a wild one in 7 years. I think this fella was just a one off freak that didn't find frogs that appealing.


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## viridis (Aug 23, 2011)

Hi Gordo, I found one near Katherine in 2006 but that was the only one I have ever found there.


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## FlippinBirdies (Aug 23, 2011)

Why if a species is close to being wiped out in an area would there be nothing in place to preserve or repopulate? This is quite distressing.. Wouldnt they play an intergral part in the eco system there? What snakes are still successful in this area that havnt succumbed to cane toad infestation?


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

Cool! Do you have any pics? And was it South of Katherine? I've heard there is/was still a population surviving around the Mataranka area.

It comes down to money, or the lack of. There isn't enough money to do anything about the toads and without adressing the toad problem there is no point in repopulating an area.

We also know that this species will not become extinct from the toads because of how wide spread they are throughout the country. The only other snake that has been directly affected by the toads are the death adders and possibly the carpet pythons, although both of them are still surviving.



FlippinBirdies said:


> Why if a species is close to being wiped out in an area would there be nothing in place to preserve or repopulate? This is quite distressing.. Wouldnt they play an intergral part in the eco system there? What snakes are still successful in this area that havnt succumbed to cane toad infestation?


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## DanN (Aug 23, 2011)

Hi Gordo,

I am sure Mulga's will still be around (touch wood). Not the easiest of snakes to find at the best of times in my experience.

Maybe check this out too;

Brown, G. P., B. L. Phillips, and R. Shine. 2011. The ecological impact of invasive cane toads on tropical snakes: field data do not support predictions from laboratory studies. Ecology 92:422-431.

Cheers,
Dan


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## imported_Varanus (Aug 23, 2011)

Exciting find, Gordo, I nearly (NEARLY that is) creamed my pants! And that doesn't happen much when you get older. Thanks for sharing.

I've often heard it said that no Ozzie wildlife has become extinct as a direct result of Cane Toads, just an initial, though extreme reduction in population numbers. Though I would have thought that some local populations would be wiped out.

P.S Thanks for that info Dan.


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## najanaja (Aug 23, 2011)

wow what a difference time makes.

I trecked all through there in 2002 and found so many that they started to bore me by the end im my trip.
they were everywhere, them and black whip snakes (how are they fairing)


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks Dan I'll def check that paper out. 

IV, as far as i know only one species was wiped out by the toad and that was a nematode worm! 

ANd yes i nearly creamed myself too, i would have for sure if it was alive. And then i would have nuggeted (without doubt!) trying to catch it with my short hooks and hoop bag that is only 3ft deep lol!

Still a tonne of black whips. Easily the most abundant vens.



najanaja said:


> wow what a difference time makes.
> 
> I trecked all through there in 2002 and found so many that they started to bore me by the end im my trip.
> they were everywhere, them and black whip snakes (how are they fairing)


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## saratoga (Aug 23, 2011)

There is still the odd one around. I saw a 1.2 metre one in Kakadu about 3 years ago and last year in Batchelor saw a beautiful 1.5m specimen in great health.....will have to dig out the video. Also have it on very good authority that one over 2 1/2m was seen mid last year in Kakadu.

Big Kingis on the dry floodplains of the Top End used to be a spectacular sight.

Unfortunately not nearly as common as they used to be, although the other Top End snake eater, the Black-headed Python seems to be booming in numbers as a result!

Was it a whitefella that shot it?


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

saratoga said:


> There is still the odd one around. I saw a 1.2 metre one in Kakadu about 3 years ago and last year in Batchelor saw a beautiful 1.5m specimen in great health.....will have to dig out the video. Also have it on very good authority that one over 2 1/2m was seen mid last year in Kakadu.
> 
> Big Kingis on the dry floodplains of the Top End used to be a spectacular sight.
> 
> ...



Yeah it was a white boy. I'm a lil disapointed that he did too, i know he has my number and i'm sure everyone in the community knows that i'm a snake catcher.


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## r3ptilian (Aug 23, 2011)

Nice to see they are still there. Not the best way to discover one but still good to see em around. I only ever found 2 DOR while living up there a couple of years ago. 1 large gravid female hit on Cox Pen RD and a sub adult male on the Arnhem at Marrakai. I Seemed to always come across Weiglii when tryin to find the big guys.


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## saratoga (Aug 23, 2011)

That figures!

I think the dreaming site for King Browns, "Dadbe", is not too far away at Mt Brockman (Jabiru east).

Lets hope there are still some other ones around carrying the same genes as this guy which like you say have steered him away from the toads.


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

saratoga said:


> That figures!
> 
> I think the dreaming site for King Browns, "Dadbe", is not too far away at Mt Brockman (Jabiru east).
> 
> Lets hope there are still some other ones around carrying the same genes as this guy which like you say have steered him away from the toads.



My class' name is Dadbe, we're having the artists paint a mulga on our door soon.

Reptillian, how long ago did you see them? DO you have any pictures? Very jealous that you have seen two!


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## saratoga (Aug 23, 2011)

Does any one in the Top End, apart from herps, know what you are talking about when you say "Mulga Snake". Never heard anyone use that around Darwin.

Not really an appropriate name for this snake in the Top End. Here they are always brown, get very big, and demand respect, so I think King Brown is the best name (yes I know they are not really a brown).


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

I only ever refer to them as mulgas. Everyone refers to every ven up here as either a King brown or a taipan lol.


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## saratoga (Aug 23, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Everyone refers to every ven up here as either a King brown or a taipan lol.



lol...that's true. Even the poor old Water Python often gets lobbed with those titles!


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## imported_Varanus (Aug 23, 2011)

Have there been any taxanomic studies done on P. Australis (I'm assuming there have) and are they merely colour/ size variations of the same species (like Notechis)? Some East Kimberley animals look very similar to some of those from The Top End.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Aug 23, 2011)

imported_Varanus said:


> Have there been any taxanomic studies done on P. Australis (I'm assuming there have) and are they merely colour/ size variations of the same species (like Notechis)? Some East Kimberley animals look very similar to some of those from The Top End.




ask and you shall recieve http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/Scott/PDF Files/39.2005.KuchEtAl.Nat copy.pdf


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

I love it when threads turn up good discussions!

Cheers Pimp!


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## imported_Varanus (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks Rob, excellent article!


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## saratoga (Aug 23, 2011)

Interesting paper, thanks.

Heard something interesting last year about these snakes. Apparently at certain times of the year they live communally in dens. This came from some aboriginal people via a very good source. Might be worth asking some of the old Bining around the Gunbalanya what they know of this? Unfortunately the area of the den they were talking about has come under the wrath of toads!


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

I've been really disapointed with what the old bininj know about most wildlife TBH. 

I'll give it a shot but.


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## Elapidae1 (Aug 23, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> We also know that this species will not become extinct from the toads because of how wide spread they are throughout the country. The only other snake that has been directly affected by the toads are the death adders and possibly the carpet pythons, although both of them are still surviving.



After reading Snake Pimps paper would you still agree with statement.
Losing a seperate population even if they are the same species as what occurs all over Australia is just as devestating as if it were a seperate species.


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## waruikazi (Aug 23, 2011)

Elapidae1 said:


> After reading Snake Pimps paper would you still agree with statement.
> Losing a seperate population even if they are the same species as what occurs all over Australia is just as devestating as if it were a seperate species.



I haven't read it yet but yes i still stand by what i said completely. The species will not go extinct from the cane toads. The numbers have been decimated in some areas, there are probably extensive local extinctions and there will likely be certain populations lost. But the species, in all likelyhood, will survive in a state that still contributes the way they always have to alot of ecosystems.

Don't get me wrong, i'm pretty devastated at what has happened to them up here. But with their massive range no one can argue that they are going to go extinct from the toads.


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## AirCooled (Aug 23, 2011)

I was told today that it seems the only rep to be able to survive and eat cane toads is the Acrochordus arafurae or the Arafura File Snake


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## Elapidae1 (Aug 23, 2011)

Thats precisely it maybe their range isn't as big as first anticipated.
I agree it's unlikely toads will cause them to be extinct but as more work is conducted and scientific methods advance and we are able to recognise species that were previously considered the same, the situation all of a sudden becomes more dire?

I believe that Regardless of whether a species is widespread over the country the extinction of a single population in terms of the effects on that populations eco systems is as devastating as if it were a seperate species.

Keelbacks though not immune have some ability to consume the toads


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## crail4 (Aug 23, 2011)

Fresh water crocs have been known to catch them and shake them around in the water to dilute the bufotoxins.


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## tropicbreeze (Aug 23, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I've been really disapointed with what the old bininj know about most wildlife TBH.
> 
> I'll give it a shot but.



Try asking Old Man Jacob (Nayinggul). Most of the others with real knowledge have passed away. But you also have to remember that their knowledge is based within the perspective of their culture. What you want to know is scientific. Knowledge is only valid within its correct context.

When I was living in central Arnhem Land one of the young blokes shot a 2.3 metre King Brown. That was one hell of an impressive snake that I wouldn't want to get on the bad side of. I think I took photos but they would have been slides. They'd be buried somewhere deep cool and dark now.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Aug 23, 2011)

heres some big kingys alive and well.crazy ,beautiful ,snakes


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## waruikazi (Aug 24, 2011)

tropicbreeze said:


> Try asking Old Man Jacob (Nayinggul). Most of the others with real knowledge have passed away. But you also have to remember that their knowledge is based within the perspective of their culture. What you want to know is scientific. Knowledge is only valid within its correct context.
> 
> When I was living in central Arnhem Land one of the young blokes shot a 2.3 metre King Brown. That was one hell of an impressive snake that I wouldn't want to get on the bad side of. I think I took photos but they would have been slides. They'd be buried somewhere deep cool and dark now.



Yeah i have asked old man for a few stories. He told me where to find those giant snakes we get around here but wouldn't give me permission to find them lol. Also got a great stoy out of him about when he got bitten by a death adder (bek) and how the old people would treat bites and that he recons there is another ven out in country that ballandas haven't found yet. He says black with a red tail, i think he means a black whip but i've been made look a fool before by not beleiving the stories. 

He taught me how to cut up crocodiles, well 'a' crocodile lol with some of his boys.
















But Old Man really is on his last legs hey. He can't walk anymore and is rapidly going down hill, it is going to be a really sad day when we lose him. I think it will hit the fan when he's gone and his boys are fighting over who gets to be the man.



Elapidae1 said:


> Thats precisely it maybe their range isn't as big as first anticipated.
> I agree it's unlikely toads will cause them to be extinct but as more work is conducted and scientific methods advance and we are able to recognise species that were previously considered the same, the situation all of a sudden becomes more dire?
> 
> I believe that Regardless of whether a species is widespread over the country the extinction of a single population in terms of the effects on that populations eco systems is as devastating as if it were a seperate species.
> ...



I don't disagree. Greg Miles calls it ecological extinction which is essentially the same thing as total extiction except there may be a few animals surviving somewhere but they no longer contribute in a meaningful way to the environment. But if we are talking total extinction, which i was, i think they are probably safe with the environment the way it is now.



Deadpan said:


> I was told today that it seems the only rep to be able to survive and eat cane toads is the Acrochordus arafurae or the Arafura File Snake



That is interesting, where did you hear it?

I'm pretty dubious about the claim though. File snakes aren't known for eating adult amphibians and the native range of bufo toads doesn't overlap with the range of file snakes. I can't see how they would ever have developed an immunity to the bufo toxin.


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## r3ptilian (Aug 24, 2011)

Reptillian, how long ago did you see them? DO you have any pictures? Very jealous that you have seen two![/QUOTE]

Here is a couple of a DOR 1 found at Bird Billabong. I'll keep lookin for more through my albums.


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## waruikazi (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't think that is a mulga reptillian. That looks very Pseudonaja to me...


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## r3ptilian (Aug 24, 2011)

Snake Pimp those are some crackin Mulgas. Do you breed them? cos I'd be interested in a young 1 or 2.



waruikazi said:


> I don't think that is a mulga reptillian. That looks very Pseudonaja to me...


I think your right, my mistake. I was goin through pics of DOR and clicked on pseudonaja instead of psuedechis. Will endeavour to find the psuedechis pics.


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## Treknotechelaps (Aug 24, 2011)

Not good to hear about the declines in snakes resulting from the invasive cane toads up north, didn't think Mulgas were so rare in some areas. Have heard about some biological controls for the ominous toads...one was to genetically manipulate them so all the young they produce that survive to adulthood are only male, so reducing the amount of females in the population will limit breeding succession within the species. Hope they take this into action.

Snake Pimp, those are a couple of impressive Mulgas!


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## AirCooled (Aug 24, 2011)

waruikazi;2027222 That is interesting said:


> I heard from a colleague who spends most of his day dealing with leptospiral research, surveillance and diagnosis in the human and veterinary fields.He also does alot with amphibians and I will see what else I can find out for you.


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## tropicbreeze (Aug 25, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Yeah i have asked old man for a few stories. He told me where to find those giant snakes we get around here but wouldn't give me permission to find them lol. Also got a great stoy out of him about when he got bitten by a death adder (bek) and how the old people would treat bites and that he recons there is another ven out in country that ballandas haven't found yet. He says black with a red tail, i think he means a black whip but i've been made look a fool before by not beleiving the stories. But Old Man really is on his last legs hey. He can't walk anymore and is rapidly going down hill, it is going to be a really sad day when we lose him. I think it will hit the fan when he's gone and his boys are fighting over who gets to be the man.


 Was that out at Mekin? There's a snake that turns up in rock art that has a malevolent association. It's depicted banded, I think it's the Western Brown. The Old Man has had problems with his feet for a while now, but although he's outlived a lot of his age group, it's catching up with him now. Alfred is the natural 'next-in-line'. And I reckon that's the way it will go.



Elapo said:


> Not good to hear about the declines in snakes resulting from the invasive cane toads up north, didn't think Mulgas were so rare in some areas. Have heard about some biological controls for the ominous toads...one was to genetically manipulate them so all the young they produce that survive to adulthood are only male, so reducing the amount of females in the population will limit breeding succession within the species. Hope they take this into action.



Don't hold your breath. They pulled all funding for research on methods of toad control/eradication. The only thing they're prepared to fund now is monitoring the effects of toads on native species. And that particular line of research (male only progeny) was canned as it was "unproven".


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## waruikazi (Aug 26, 2011)

I assume he was referring to Mekinj valley outstation. He just said his outstation but. 

When i first came out here Old Man was still walking but no more, he's stuck in his wheel chair. Still enjoying himself but, always down at the club and telling the coppers, rangers and anyone else what for lol. There was a ballanda, who you would no doubt know TB, that somehow had a problem with me along with another one of Jacob's younger sons who thinks he's the man in town and hates white people. They ended up trying to run me out of the community by making up lies and stretching a few truths to breaking point. After the initial agro my boss organised a meeting between me and all the important T/O's of the two clans here. Luckily for me Jacob remembered all of the conversations we'd had and that he had given me the permission i said i had and he told the NLC, police and his sons 'That's my land i gave him permission! Anyone else can **** off.' Lol, so he is still a real force to be recconed with. When he talks, not even the birds interupt him.

Alfred will definately go well as the man, we get along pretty well now after the situation was sorted but some of those younger sons will cause a bit of trouble when Old Man is gone.


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## GeckPhotographer (Aug 26, 2011)

Hey very interesting thread. I took particular interest in the talk of daughterless toad technology. This has in fact been proven as a concept that male toads can be breed/altered so that all progeny they produce and their progeny produce are male. The unproven part is just how implementing this would be possible in curving toads numbers, for instance it might be found needed that billions of toads be released all over to have any effect. Lots of people listen to this and immediately go on the defensive that we cannot release toads. I think it is a very possible approach that should be researched more. It is still being researched for Carp but was indeed stopped for toads as most research has. The problem with this is to get funding to research say a toads impact on animal A, one must first be able to provide evidence that toads will impact animal A, for which they need funding to research to find out.


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## waruikazi (Aug 29, 2011)

The thing you should remember with genes and controls such as that GP is because the gene is detrimental to the species it will eventually breed out of the gene pool.


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## GeckPhotographer (Aug 29, 2011)

Well technically you are right. But you are also in a way wrong. The gene does not in any way lower reproduction chance. Therefore there are no selecting agents affecting animals with this gene other than those affecting all animals. Animals with this gene will be able to breed just as much as individuals without. Eventually of course there will be so few males and so few females that the number of frogs recruited each year will be far lower than casualties. The population will decrease. There is presumable equal chance of male producing males surviving as regular as the population decreases. So eventually you get to a point where the population has been drastically and radically decreased, but yes it is assumable that probably population survive without the gene, this would however be by pure chance that the males within those populations that survived were non male producers. If any male producers remain they would continue to affect a population right down to driving a population into extinction by producing only male producers. 

The gene cannot "disappear" and evolution does not know it is having an adverse effect on the population. It simply comes down to which frogs are reproducing the most and as the percentage make-up of the population that are male producers should increase similarly to exponentially there should be no reason for the gene to be bred out until extinction occurs.

At least the way I see it.


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

The gene certaintly could disappear out of the population and it can also mutate while still in the population. That is how evolution works, when there is a trait that is detrimental to a species they either change (lose that trait), go extinct or do something inbetween those two scenarios. 

I think you are overlooking that the toads have another genetic option on the cards. They are the toads that can produce both males and females. 



GeckPhotographer said:


> Well technically you are right. But you are also in a way wrong. The gene does not in any way lower reproduction chance. Therefore there are no selecting agents affecting animals with this gene other than those affecting all animals. Animals with this gene will be able to breed just as much as individuals without. Eventually of course there will be so few males and so few females that the number of frogs recruited each year will be far lower than casualties. The population will decrease. There is presumable equal chance of male producing males surviving as regular as the population decreases. So eventually you get to a point where the population has been drastically and radically decreased, but yes it is assumable that probably population survive without the gene, this would however be by pure chance that the males within those populations that survived were non male producers. If any male producers remain they would continue to affect a population right down to driving a population into extinction by producing only male producers.
> 
> The gene cannot "disappear" and evolution does not know it is having an adverse effect on the population. It simply comes down to which frogs are reproducing the most and as the percentage make-up of the population that are male producers should increase similarly to exponentially there should be no reason for the gene to be bred out until extinction occurs.
> 
> At least the way I see it.


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## Poggle (Aug 30, 2011)

Hey Gordo,

I was lucky enough to find a female mulga about 40kms north of Mataranka in December. She measures about 1.7 in length and very health. What is the status of these snakes that far south?


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't know but i've heard that south of Mataranka that there are still a few around. I would assume that it has something to do with the toads and the available water.


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## saratoga (Aug 30, 2011)

Poggle said:


> Hey Gordo,
> She measures about 1.7 in length and very health. What is the status of these snakes that far south?




She measures or she measured?

One implies you still have her!


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## r3ptilian (Aug 30, 2011)

saratoga said:


> She measures or she measured?
> 
> One implies you still have her!


Benefit of the doubt, s is located next to d on a keyboard haha.


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## saratoga (Aug 30, 2011)

r3ptilian said:


> Benefit of the doubt, s is located next to d on a keyboard haha.



lol... good reply!


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## GeckPhotographer (Aug 30, 2011)

> The gene certaintly could disappear out of the population and it can also mutate while still in the population. That is how evolution works, when there is a trait that is detrimental to a species they either change (lose that trait), go extinct or do something inbetween those two scenarios.
> 
> I think you are overlooking that the toads have another genetic option on the cards. They are the toads that can produce both males and females.



It can mutate while still in the population yes. However the chance of it mutating in every individual containing it is astronomical. What you are saying is that evolution works on the effect of a gene to a population, this is not correct, evolution works more on a genes impact on the individual in which it is found. This trait is in no way detrimental to the individual, therefore there is no selecting agent against it, no reason for them to change. The toads themselves cannot choose to change. 

As for the other genetic option the viable males and females. I am not overlooking it at all just taking statistics into account. When a viable male breeds he produces roughly 1:1 Male:Female, when a altered breeds he produces all male, in this way in a population with roughly equal number of altered and viable (I start from roughly equal to make my point clear it works fine with less than equal) toads, the number of male toads produced will be higher than the number of female toads, and the number of male producing toads will be the higher percentage of those male toads (maybe not by much but by a non-coincidental amount). In this way the next time breeding occurs there are more male producing toads than viable. |

What this is is a positive feedback system, the amount of male producing toads produced is proportional and increasing based on the number already within the population. Furthermore as it increases the number of females rapidly decrease proportionally thus making it even harder for the minority males (viable) to find one to mate with. 

I can understand what you are saying but evolution does not select based on what is good for a species, it selects by who reproduces and in this case the gene that ends up bad for the species ends up being more prolific than the one that is good. Apart from mutation or extinction there is no reason it should leave the species and as I say mutation in all individuals has an astronomically small chance, and as for them going extinct in Australia well that's what we want. 

One more point I predict you may in the future put up as argument. You may say that if mutation occurs that individual may become more prolific than toads carrying the male producing gene. If the mutation simply made those animals able to reproduce viably it would obey the mathematics already demonstrated (in words but I could write up some very basic perfect world equations). Therefore the mutation would not only need to eliminate the gene but replace it with a more prolific gene, or one that cancelled out the effect of the first gene. The chance of this mutation occurring is small, I fail to see how a straight more prolific gene could mathematically happen, and one counteracting the first would simply return the situation to where it started, but assuming it happened in only few individuals would take far longer to build up when a large number of male producers are in the population so toad numbers would still likely be produced. 

I welcome criticism of my argument, I hope this is more succinct and I certainly know it contains fewer errors than the first I put down.


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## waruikazi (Aug 30, 2011)

If it was going to work it would have been done. 

Perhaps bred out of the population is the wrong phrase to use. A control like that is unlikely to knock the species out, it is very likely the species will find a way around it. 

Evolution does work on what is good for a species, not just what is good for an individual.


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## junglepython2 (Aug 30, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> This trait is in no way detrimental to the individual, therefore there is no selecting agent against it, no reason for them to change. The toads themselves cannot choose to change.



It is detrimental to that individuals collective offspring though as all will be male. The offspring will have reduced mating rates compared to a toad that produces an equal mix of male and females.


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## GeckPhotographer (Aug 30, 2011)

> If it was going to work it would have been done.


I sort of agree. I honestly don't know why it was not implemented but for starters it would take huge amounts of time and money and a government press release saying they are releasing a couple thousand + toads probably wouldn't go down well. 



> Perhaps bred out of the population is the wrong phrase to use. A control like that is unlikely to knock the species out, it is very likely the species will find a way around it.
> 
> Evolution does work on what is good for a species, not just what is good for an individual.


It is unlikely to totally knock the species out yes, I have my doubts it would effectively spread across the range toads now occupy. It is possible a way would occur which allowed to species around it but I see no reason why it has to or is particularly likely. If you would like to explain why it is so likely please do so.

Firstly I repeat evolution does not work at all with anything on what is 'good'. Evolution works in that organisms that reproduce pass on their genes. This happens at an individual level, species do not breed, individuals within a species breed. Therefore any selection must happen at an individual level to affect a species. Please see my reply below for a continuation of this. The only thing I believe I mentioned about this technology is that proof of concept exists that male toads can be altered genetically to produce male offspring only, the rest is a paper concept. 



> It is detrimental to that individuals collective offspring though as all will be male. The offspring will have reduced mating rates compared to a toad that produces an equal mix of male and females.



True in the end it ends up detrimental. But there is no reason a toad with this gene will have reduced mating chance. Toads select breeding partners mostly on which toad is calling loudest and strongest or whichever toad jumps onto the females back first. As the fitness of these animals is no way impaired they will have in no way any reduced chance of breeding. No animal but humans select to breed based on genotypic characteristics that the animal cannot detect as a phenotype. Now the female toads may be able to detect the toad is a male but there is no way they should be able to detect it is male producing. 




I like your replies and I enjoy debate but if you could stop speaking of evolution as if it is intelligent and is trying to help a species survive I feel it would improve your arguments. 
I am not arguing this is a silver bullet or a cure all, I am backing up my position that if daughter-less male technology could be released into a population and work like it does on paper (there are no population based tests to back it up) there is absolutely no reason that it should be likely to be bred out of the population before making a highly significant impact.


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## waruikazi (Aug 31, 2011)

No one said evolution is intelligent. What is good, or not detrimental for an individual of a species can be bad for the species as a whole. One example i can think of is longer necked male giraffes. The males with longer necks are more likely to win combat and reproduce but their offspring are disadvantaged by becoming uncoordinated when they bend down to feed/drink. 

There is every reason why a toad with this gene (if it is a gene that does it) will have a reduced mating chance. There will be _fewer suitable partners. _

Evolution works on species. That's how you get different species, you can't have a new species evolve and survive as a species with a single individual.


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## GeckPhotographer (Aug 31, 2011)

> No one said evolution is intelligent.



Some points implied it.


> What is good, or not detrimental for an individual of a species can be bad for the species as a whole. One example i can think of is longer necked male giraffes. The males with longer necks are more likely to win combat and reproduce but their offspring are disadvantaged by becoming uncoordinated when they bend down to feed/drink.


This is an example where there is a selecting agent both for and against the gene (or really many genes). It is still selecting at an individual level just through different factors. All I am saying is that individual happens because selecting agents select against individuals the cumulative affect of these selections leads to the change in species. So it does all come down to the individuals. 


> There is every reason why a toad with this gene (if it is a gene that does it) will have a reduced mating chance. There will be _fewer suitable partners.
> _


How would there be fewer suitable partners? I mean sure the gene will cause less partners to be created but that is as true for every toad in the population. The altered toad can suitably breed with any female any normal toad can breed with. There is no reason at all toads with this gene would have reduced mating chance. In fact as they gradually inflate their population relative to normal males, they as a whole have a greater mating chance because they have more individuals. 


> Evolution works on species. That's how you get different species, you can't have a new species evolve and survive as a species with a single individual.


No you cannot but evolution of new species acts by selection of individuals. 


Look I agree there could be any number of problems with the gene, the gene itself could cause disease in the animal. There is not enough research to know at all. So unless research is done to know what the effect of the gene is on the animal it remains still only proof of concept toads can be produced to do this. And based off that that is all the knowledge existing then if that alteration is the only one to occur to the toad (and there is no evidence to say either way) then the toad will act exactly like a normal toad. It will have exactly the same chance on every level as a normal toad. But mathematically it will change the population after generations to improve its own chances and decrease those of a normal toad.


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## waruikazi (Aug 31, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Some points implied it.
> 
> This is an example where there is a selecting agent both for and against the gene (or really many genes). It is still selecting at an individual level just through different factors. All I am saying is that individual happens because selecting agents select against individuals the cumulative affect of these selections leads to the change in species. So it does all come down to the individuals. Unlike the toad which has no benefit for an individual and a detriment to the species as a whole.
> 
> ...



Evolution works on species as a whole as well as individuals of a species. That's one way a whole species changes into another.


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## Poggle (Aug 31, 2011)

saratoga said:


> She measures or she measured?
> 
> One implies you still have her!



One can imply what ever they like  But she "measured" was the term i was after.. Seeing as thought i was on a holiday even if i wanted to bring hom a beautiful snake like that.... 2 words at getting in the car with my wife..... GOOD LUCK haha



waruikazi said:


> Evolution works on species as a whole as well as individuals of a species. That's one way a whole species changes into another.



Completely agree


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