# Varanus tristis taxonomy & locales



## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

Varanus tristis is currently a very confusing species in terms of taxonomy and work needs to be done to establish further clarity with this stunning and diverse species. The species has a remarkably large distribution and a range extending from the most northern point of Australia (Cape York), across central Australia and south-west to regions of Western Australia. They are an incredibly successful and adaptable species of varanid and inhabit an array of unique environments from tropical rainforests to arid rocky outcrops. All this has resulted in an incredible diversity in terms of size, colour, pattern and markings. To date so far little is known taxonomically-wise about this species and little research has been done to establish a greater understanding of this species' subspecies, potentially new subspecies and even new species.

At any rate that work is for a taxonomist. I'm just asking if anyone has any information/speculations on the subspecies/potential sp/ssp. Along with that I've been working on a list of locales, listed below is what I have so far. If anyone knows any other locales I'd appreciate it if you let me know, not much research has been done and it's primarily through herpers, photographers and fellow varanid keepers that I've managed to create the current list.

*V. t. orientalis*
Cape York (QLD)
Magnetic Island (QLD)
Darwin (NT)
Prosperine (QLD)
Brigalow Belt (QLD/NSW)
Ditmer (QLD)
Barakula State Forest (QLD)
Moorrinya NP (QLD)
Mt. Isa (QLD)
Eidsvold (QLD)
Culgoa NP (QLD/NSW)
Dajarra (QLD)
Barkly Downs (QLD)
Rosedale/Central Coastal QLD (QLD)
Central QLD (Exact locale not specified)(commonly referred to as 'reds')

Note: The extent of most of these animals ranges is not currently known.

*V. t. tristis*
Bourke (NSW)
Diamantina Lakes NP (QLD)
Mt. Isa (QLD)
Alice Springs (NT)
Theda Station/Kimberley (NT)
Kununurra/Kimberley (NT)
Umbrawarra Gorge (NT)
Kakadu NP (NT)
Soudan Station (NTO)
Halls Creek (WA)
Hamersley Ranges (WA)
Swan River (WA)
Port Hedland (WA)
Moore River (WA)
Southern WA (exact locale not specified)

Note: The extent of most of these animals ranges is not currently known.


If anyone has anything to add especially in regards to potentially more subspecies and definitely more locales would be very welcome. Also I've heard of a potentially new subspecies V. t. centralis, anyone care to elaborate on this?

Cheers guys & thanks
Scotty


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## eipper (Jan 2, 2013)

What a mess..... Ok from what I have seen there are a number of undescribed small arboreal varanid taxa in Australia. There are apparently people both here and OS working on these animals. Preliminary data suggests the will be quite a few "new" species but where the divisions lie remain to be clarified.

As this is a very complex group it will take sometime to sort out properly and there certainly no sense in rushing it.

Interestingly I remember reading a paper on tristis phylogenetics but they did not sample Eidsvold (the type locality for orientalis).

cheers
Scott


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## Stevo2 (Jan 2, 2013)

Are there any basic identifiers for ANY of these locales, other than the word of the person you're getting them from or the location you see them in the wild? Quite curious as I'm moving into this area of herps shortly


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

@ eipper - Yeah, really looking forward to any information coming out. Would you be able to track down that paper for me by an chance?


@ Stevo2 - I've found that most if not all can be identified based on markings/colour changes. However due to limited data I can't say for sure. Where are you moving to I'm sure I can dig up some way for you to be able to identify the different locales in your area. Also these locales are based on animals that are 'different' from your average tristis.


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## Chris (Jan 2, 2013)

I have a few _V.T.Tristis_ that look like (colour & size) what I would call the 'usual' animal, see below:







However I picked this pair up below (who I think are both actually females) that were sold to me as _V.T.Orientalis_, they appear different to the 'usual' _V.T.Orientalis _but are smaller than the animal above, see below:






What do you think, are they _V.T.Orientalis_?


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

First one is definitely a V. t. tristis, thinking WA or central NT locale?
Second ones, reckon a V. t. orientalis locale from NT or even WA. More research needs to be done as I said, either way they're all very nice tristis.
Did you manage to breed any this season?


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## Chris (Jan 2, 2013)

Thanks Scott. The first ones pictured I have 3 adult females of them, I was sold an identical male that unbeknown to me had a bacterial infection in his mouth, I spent a small fortune on injections & antibiotics with a vet but eventually had him euthanised, so no eggs this year. They were a Alice Springs locale. I have no idea on the locale of the second lot.

I'm on the hunt for a male now


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

Damn, that's a pity - real waste of an animal, you don't see many like those, most tristis these days are pretty average apart from the few 'unique' locales out there that I can't talk about. Let me know if you find a male for any of them, they're definitely some of the nicer looking tristis out there in terms of as you said 'usual' animals.

If any of you guys in WA and/or NT think you can get some WC animals from some of these locale let me know as most of these locales aren't in captivity and I reckon some work should be done to get a viable number of captive animals breeding for these locales. Never know, some of those locales may turn out to be a separate species or subspecies.


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## Elapidae1 (Jan 2, 2013)

I'd be interested in further elaboration on the Moore river, Swan river and S'west WA locales. I have never heard of them being distinct from each other in any way (Not to say they aren't). S west is a massive area. And does an area of the swan have a distinct variation to animals found 20, 30 + Kms in either direction of it?

Here's an typical example of a Tristis 60ks south of Perth.


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

I reckon a lot of the SW WA locales require a lot more research personally. The could potentially be a new species or subspecies IMO, as I said that's a job for taxonomists. In regards to Moore & Swan rivers animals they could all potentially be classed as 'South-Western WA' animals however until more research is done I make an effort to list every locale.


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## Albino93 (Jan 2, 2013)

I really like the V.t.tristis that have these markings/colours, im in the process of finding a breeder that has this form. I think the photo was taken in Broken Hill. Is this a typical patterned tristis tristis found in that area?




Im very sorry if im not aloud to use this photo but i couldnt find one anywhere else, i will remove it if im asked to.


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

Very similar to the V. t. tristis of the QLD/NT Border, particularly the Diamantina Lakes individuals, although your one has more black. At any rate I reckon this could be a potential locale, at any rate very stunning animal. You won't find many breeders with animals like that, just watch the forums though - a very similar locale will probably become available in late 2013-2014 with any luck although they are more pricey than the normal tristis, don't think I'm allowed to give any more info then that sorry!


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## Albino93 (Jan 2, 2013)

Yeah its gonna take a while to find someone who breeds that locale or even ones that are close to it, but ive got plenty of time. Are the Diamantina lakes locale easier to find? many breeders around that breed this locale form? do u have any pics of them? sorry about all the questions.
No worrys thanks heaps for the info uv'e given, i really appreciate it.


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## Stevo2 (Jan 2, 2013)

ScottyHerps said:


> @ eipper - Yeah, really looking forward to any information coming out. Would you be able to track down that paper for me by an chance?
> 
> 
> @ Stevo2 - I've found that most if not all can be identified based on markings/colour changes. However due to limited data I can't say for sure. Where are you moving to I'm sure I can dig up some way for you to be able to identify the different locales in your area. Also these locales are based on animals that are 'different' from your average tristis.



Thanks Scotty. Moving into as in getting me some of these little guys soon  I'm also hoping to find some of the maggie island V.t.o in my travels! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

@ Albino - PM Sent.

@ Stevo - Haha. Stunning little orientalis those maggies. Where you heading btw? I'm assuming up north.


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## Elapidae1 (Jan 2, 2013)

ScottyHerps said:


> I reckon a lot of the SW WA locales require a lot more research personally. The could potentially be a new species or subspecies IMO, as I said that's a job for taxonomists. In regards to Moore & Swan rivers animals they could all potentially be classed as 'South-Western WA' animals however until more research is done I make an effort to list every locale.



Yes there could potentially be new sp or app but when you use the term locale for Moore river, Swan river and S'west you exclude more or less every suburb in between and to the East,


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

Sorry but I'm not very familiar with the WA animals and not much information is available regarding them, not to mention I have very, very limited information regarding different locales in each suburb. If you have any information or want to add locales feel free man.


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## Echiopsis (Jan 2, 2013)

ScottyHerps said:


> Sorry but I'm not very familiar with the WA animals and not much information is available regarding them, not to mention I have very, very limited information regarding different locales in each suburb. If you have any information or want to add locales feel free man.



Are you suggesting the listed locales are distinct (be it morphologically or genetically) or is that purely a list of places you know tristis to occur? If the latter, you'd have to list most of the towns in WA. They're everywhere, from the remnant road side strips in the Wheatbelt to victrix and camaldulensis lined creeks in the Pilbara. Further north than that I have no experience. I haven't noticed any variation in the WA animals I've seen that I think justifies any kind of split, just variation over the range. That said, once the gel jockeys get hold of it who knows, morphological characters seem to mean less and less by the minute.

I haven't got many pics of the hundreds I've seen, they're not the most cooperative subjects.


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

Primarily I've listed locales that are distinct, as previously stated though I am not a very familiar with the WA animals I'm more familiar with the QLD locales. As you obviously are more familiar with them what name would you use to list the animals from the region?


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## Echiopsis (Jan 2, 2013)

They're just tristis to me, darker in the south with bolder occeli in the north and east. I haven't seen any as heavily patterned as the eastern orientalis anywhere from the Pilbara south. Some of the nicest have been in the Hamersleys/ Chichesters and up around Hedland. The young in the Hamersleys at least are quite red dorsally rather than the typical black and white in the south.


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 2, 2013)

WA definitely has quite a diverse array of locales, thanks - I wasn't quite sure how the locales and colour forms worked in regards to WA.
So I'm thinking in regards to locales:
SW Western Australia - primarily more black
W Western Australia - bit of a mix?
NW Western Australia - basically the Hamersleys/Cichesters
NNW Western Australia - As above, bit of an NT influence
Central Western Australia - Similar to NT animals with a bit of the SW animals thrown in?

Please correct if I'm wrong, I'm not very sure about this.


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## Echiopsis (Jan 3, 2013)

Hamersley Range adult, Alice Spings adult and a juvenile Hamersley. Really should take more pics of these guys, pity they're such a pain is the ****.

Its not easy to label the areas as such, they still vary even within those regions. Darker in the south is about the only consistent trait I've seen.


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## Stevo2 (Jan 3, 2013)

ScottyHerps said:


> @ Albino - PM Sent.
> 
> @ Stevo - Haha. Stunning little orientalis those maggies. Where you heading btw? I'm assuming up north.



Based in Townsville  Haven't done much herping up here though and really need to get out more!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## nathancl (Jan 3, 2013)

There are a few undescribed species currently lumped within tristis. 

The second lot of tristis are typical of the central nt/alice springs type whereas the ones you bought as "Alice springs" animals look more like animals from the south of their range in SA. 

There has been some study into the genetics and validity of the ssp orientalis however as Scott mentioned unfortunately specimens from the south east of Queensland where omitted therefore rendering the work fairly inconclusive. Tristis across various different locations did not show to have any major differences genetically. 

Animals from east Arnhem land certainly look a bit different to your tristis you get around Darwin. Specimens I have examined suggest to me that Queensland has the most variation between "types" or "locales".

Comparing a cape York to a SEQ you can see just in pure size difference of adults that they are not quite the same. SEQ animals tails show very strong keeling of the scales as opposed to nth qld animals having a more compressed/less spinose tail. Just one of the few things that show differently between populations. 

Tistis are an awesome monitor. From all locales they are favourites. 

There is currently a lot of pure local lines of tristis being worked with in captivity.


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## geckodan (Jan 3, 2013)

It wasn't just the Eidsvold animals that were omitted, it was the whole east coast. Not a single specimen that should be considered as V.t.orientalis was sampled. The sampled specimens were from every other corner of the range and were shown to be genetically similar across the entire range despite considerable colour variations and were all considered to be V. t. tristis.
In my opinion, only those small specimens that have an obvious temporal stripe, clear body ocelli that extends onto the head with a minimal change in colour and an unpatterned throat, should be classified as the Freckled Monitor V. t. orientalis.


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## imported_Varanus (Jan 3, 2013)

Albino93 said:


> I really like the V.t.tristis that have these markings/colours, im in the process of finding a breeder that has this form. I think the photo was taken in Broken Hill. Is this a typical patterned tristis tristis found in that area?
> 
> View attachment 275828



Looks very similar to a small "colony" of animals I've seen several years running from Mutawintji Nat Park (Homestead Gorge ) in Far West NSW. recently, I've found similar at Gundabooka Nat Park (also NSW). Though the person credited with the photo resides in SA so this animal could be Flinders Ranges(?). The first pic Chri5 posted looks typical of an AS animal to me. Interesting topic.


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## geckodan (Jan 3, 2013)

CHRI5 said:


> I have a few _V.T.Tristis_ that look like (colour & size) what I would call the 'usual' animal, see below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would consider both the upper and lower animals to be V. t. tristis - they are the style of animal that the Americans think are orientalis. I don't believe that there is any real orientalis in the US.


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 3, 2013)

Out of curiosity Dan, why? What do you base your claim on? Not saying it isn't correct just trying to get a better understanding of when it comes to identifying the two subspecies.


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## cadwallader (Jan 3, 2013)

Any more information on this paper searched for it can't find the one your talking about any help authors, publishers or title?
keen to have a read


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## eipper (Jan 3, 2013)

No freckling on the head. Colour and pattern variation *can* be an indicator for different species but in the case of tristis I think it is a geographical cline rather than speciation. I think there *may* be a couple of cryptic species currently lumped under V. t. orientalis, but without having looked more closely at these and seeing the genetics I will reserve my judgment at this time.

cheers
scott


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## Echiopsis (Jan 3, 2013)

A Molecular phylogeny of the Australian monitor lizards (Squamata: Varanidae) inferred from mitochondrial DNA sequences. Fitch, Goodman, Donnellan

Wouldn't mind a read if anyone has it. E-mail [email protected]
Cheers


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## geckodan (Jan 3, 2013)

ScottyHerps said:


> Out of curiosity Dan, why? What do you base your claim on? Not saying it isn't correct just trying to get a better understanding of when it comes to identifying the two subspecies.



As written above - only those small specimens that have an obvious temporal stripe, clear body ocelli that extends onto the head with a minimal change in colour and an unpatterned throat, should be classified as the Freckled Monitor V. t. orientalis. This is based on the key features that differentiate specimens from the two type localities and are consistent with field sightings.


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 3, 2013)

Alright thanks Dan.
Cheers


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## eipper (Jan 3, 2013)

I sent this to you months back mate want it again?


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## Echiopsis (Jan 3, 2013)

eipper said:


> I sent this to you months back mate want it again?



I thought I'd read the introduction then put it aside for later. Cant find the original e-mail anywhere, farked if I know. Yeah, wouldnt mind it again if you have it handy mate.

Cheers


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## geckodan (Jan 3, 2013)

I lost my copy in the meltdown - I'll grab another copy thanks.


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## Chris (Jan 3, 2013)

geckodan said:


> I would consider both the upper and lower animals to be V. t. tristis



That's what I originally thought Dan, they look very similar to my other T.Tristis (top pic), except that they're significantly smaller (like 30%) & have ocelli running up onto their head whereas my larger ones don't, they have the full black head. But as I said in my first post they don't look like the 'usual' T.Orientalis either.


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## yewherper (Jan 3, 2013)

So I have been reading this thread and looking at our guys black heads. I was wondering what type mine is?
I got told he was V.tristis tristis. But i guess if you guys could maybe have a guess at locallity of him? 
He doesnt really change colour much, he is few years old.
Sorry if the pic's dont help. 
Thanks


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