# Frustration!



## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Sorry about this but it needs to be said to the people within the reptile community....

READ YOUR PERMITS!

If you have a private license, not a commercial license then do the right thing and leave your pets at home, in the states that require appropriate permits to go to schools we are finding an increasing number of private owners going into the local schools and doing demonstrations, not only is this a violation of your permit conditions, which can result in the confiscation of your loved pets, it is also a risk to yourself and other around you.

If something should happen and a person is injured, not just from a bite but from a fear response then you can be sued, this is why there is a requirement to have public liability insurance, government schools require a minimum of $10,000,000 cover.....the school also can be held liable.

So parents and teachers with private wildlife licenses do the right thing, read your permit conditions and follow what is in them....btw ignorance is NO defense.

We have been told recently by the Education Department that many schools in Victoria have banned animals coming into the school unless for a structured class, this includes pets such as bearded dragons, mice, rats, birds, cats and dogs.....leave demonstrations of animals to those with the permits, insurance and hopefully knowledge to conduct such sessions.


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## beatlloydy (Feb 9, 2010)

snakehandler said:


> If something should happen and a person is injured, not just from a bite but from a fear response then you can be sued, this is why there is a requirement to have public liability insurance, government schools require a minimum of $10,000,000 cover.....the school also can be held liable.



Understand where you are coming from...but I find it ludicrous that someone can sue due to fear response from a snake...My daughter is scared of large dogs ...does that mean she can sue owners of large, unrestrained dogs?. 

Perhaps having snakes in public more can assist in eliminating fear response...I am not suggesting we break laws and take snakes out but perhaps the laws need to be looked at...why is one species of animal less of a risk than others...the risk of a bite from a small to medium sized python is far less than from a dog ..a dog has the potential to kill...yet archaic laws still permit large, dangerous dogs to be kept and indeed taken out in public.

For those that have people who have shown an interest in snakes (or even those that say the only good snake is a dead one), why not invite them around and show them your snakes in your own environment? Unless they are elapids I believe this is well within the law.

Some of those that only like dead snakes or have that fear response would surely change their minds if they handled a hatchling/juvenile spotted or stimsons.


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## Bushfire (Feb 9, 2010)

beatlloydy said:


> Understand where you are coming from...but I find it ludicrous that someone can sue due to fear response from a snake...My daughter is scared of large dogs ...does that mean she can sue owners of large, unrestrained dogs?.


 
In short, yes. Using your daughter as an example, say she is out in a park where a large, unrestrained dog is about with its owner, in response to your daughters fear she runs away and somehow injuired the owner of that dog can be sued for causing that accident. The same applies for reptiles even in a class room.


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## otomix (Feb 9, 2010)

I'm scared of the police, If I see them behind me in traffic and drive away fast and crash, will I be able to sue them because of my fear response?

What a load of turd.


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Schools are supposed to be a safe place, one of the reasons dogs are being banned too is to reduce this same chance of a fear response......if you are worried about the police....stop breaking the law


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## percey39 (Feb 9, 2010)

I could not agree more about this subject. It is quite frustrating reading about people walking down the road with snakes around them or taking them to show their childs friends at school. If this behaviour does continue i do believe the question will be proposed to limit reptile licenses, which is no good for some of the people starting out in this hobby.


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## CodeRed (Feb 9, 2010)

What is the world comming to where people sue over every little thing. Lawyers are probably reading this and rubbing their hands with glee.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Feb 9, 2010)

Unfortunatly codered, this is a sign of the times and litigation and lawers are thriving.
The days are gone when a kid can take his or her pet to school.
You would think in the hands of a responsible adults though, show and tell could include showing of your beardy or python,dog cat, rat, chook whatever.


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## Peterwookie (Feb 9, 2010)

My Son would love to to have me take in a Childrens Python for show & tell he has been asking for 3 years now at 7 he just dosent understand the law's or rules and I know most of the kids in his class have asked him to bring it in to see ... I rember my dad bringing in a Diamond for me for show & tell it is S%#@ that I cant do the sam for my son How times change !!!!


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## dtulip10 (Feb 9, 2010)

ssssnakeman said:


> Unfortunatly codered, this is a sign of the times and litigation and lawers are thriving.
> The days are gone when a kid can take his or her pet to school.
> You would think in the hands of a responsible adults though, show and tell could include showing of your beardy or python,dog cat, rat, chook whatever.



yeah i could not agree more. i remember when i was 6 mum and dad brought in some alpacas for show and tell, and i used to catch blue tongues and beardies on the way to school and take them to school to show the class, they used to love it. but these days people could sue me for not liking them, the world need to get over it self sometimes. 

but snakehandler i do agree with you if you have paid for the licence to do exhibits than you should have the right over every one else.


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## CodeRed (Feb 9, 2010)

my wife is a teacher and has taken snakes to my children's daycare (many years ago), but when she asked about doing another show and tell at my son's kindergarden the school's insurance company refused to cover it. Its such a shame as its the kids that miss out.

So what's the law say about kids who visit my house. My kids frequently bring their friends over to see the snakes. None of them have ever freaked out since they only get to touch the most placid animals (no scrubbies  ). Actually it more likely to be one of the parents who is scared of snakes.


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## Lovemydragons (Feb 9, 2010)

I think schools should have demonstrators come to show/teach the kids more often. I remember my primary school (long time ago now) used to have a guy by the name of Andrew Wagner come in once a year every year and bring along small crocs, snake, lizards, turtles etc and let us touch some. I would look forward to this every year and in a way think its probably what got me interested in herps. I'm not sure if the school still does something with the same guy or another demonstrator but would fantastic if more schools got involved with programs like these.


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Nothing about your house....that is a private residence and the animals are licensed there...it is the parents responsibily to know the regulations and encourage the school to use licensed, qualifed and approved companies to do a program for the school....it's all part of responsible pet ownership


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## Daryl_H (Feb 9, 2010)

quote removed

lol i always took almost anything i found to school lizards turtles and even 60 cm fresh water crays that could have taken all my fingers off in one go.... but its all part of show and tell and being a kid 

Damed if ill stop my kids from doing the same thing when i have em


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Hashbean, what a joke, its people like you that get things like reptiles in schools banned because you have no respect for the regulations, you will be the first to moan about it when the authorities do something about it to you, but you will have no grounds to complain.

Demonstrators pay for the right to take animals to schools, pay for insurance, pay for working with children checks and all the other things, this is our livelihood, not just our hobby and people such as yourself make a mockery of the whole point of permits. I am sure many demonstrators in NSW would be very upset at hearing your statement, given the restrictions place on them that you as a private person do not have to abide by!

Cant get gigs, we are now having to turn down bookings, not only schools, but in other areas as we cannot staff the work we are getting, if you want to demonstrate animals, get a job doing it!


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Show and tell is one thing, but to have people come in to do demonstrations is another. We have been at a school today, having to re-educate the class after a parent came in and gave a lesson on reptiles and the environment, the lack of knowledge this person displayed is astounding. 

The other issue is that if people cannot abide by the current regulations then they will get tighter, or worse....just do the right thing!


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## it_slithers (Feb 9, 2010)

I think what you ment to say snakehandler is STOP TAKING MY BUSINESS!!!


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## Den from Den Pythons (Feb 9, 2010)

snakehandler said:


> Hashbean, what a joke, its people like you that get things like reptiles in schools banned because you have no respect for the regulations, you will be the first to moan about it when the authorities do something about it to you, but you will have no grounds to complain.
> 
> Demonstrators pay for the right to take animals to schools, pay for insurance, pay for working with children checks and all the other things, this is our livelihood, not just our hobby and people such as yourself make a mockery of the whole point of permits. I am sure many demonstrators in NSW would be very upset at hearing your statement, given the restrictions place on them that you as a private person do not have to abide by!



I agree, all it will take is one incident to make the news and it will hinder the plight of many keepers to promote private reptile keepers in a positive light. "Pet python attacks student".... If an animal that is being displayed by a company bites a student that company will take the wrap, us private keepers will be left out of it...
Taking animals to school may seem innocent but people must be aware that reptiles are in essence wild, un-domesticated animals... All have the ability to bite even if they never have in their life. 

I understand stand that people are keen to get a positive message out there BUT commercialised reptile awareness such as school and public displays should be left to licensed individuals.


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## Funkstaa (Feb 9, 2010)

snake handler - I'm the nerdy type and not into rule breaking but I rang the epa after miss 5 asked to bring our herps in to show her class they said as long as we give them enough notice I can get permission to take them in for a morning, all I have to do is give them the number of kids in the class a time and an address.
I think education is the best way for censervation of our herps and I also think kids being the next generation of herp keepers should be introduced in a comfortable environment to them and given the facts.
I live in a rural area so for us it's a way of showing the kids the difference between captive and wildlife as there are too many backyard snakebites happening.
Would love to pick your brain if possible on age appropriate facts before we take ours in if your willing?


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

You are seeking authority....that's what I am wanting....do it the right way


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't want to tread on the toes of QLD demonstrators so respectfully I will have to decline, you should speak to companies based in QLD.....,and get insurance


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## longqi (Feb 9, 2010)

As Wildlife Demonstrators we supposedly have the correct knowledge, attitude, and ability to show various animals safely
But someone taking a pet snake to a school for show and tell should not be a worry
There is a tremendous difference between the two actions
When we start putting ourselves into some exalted position we are forgetting that our introduction to slitherers etc was probably through a show and tell somewhere

Yes keep an eye on things 
But no need to get knickers in a twist unless taipans or brownies etc are involved

Life is meant to be enjoyed


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## moosenoose (Feb 9, 2010)

I've taken a snake or two into my kids class a few times over the years. It's "show and tell" and nothing more than that, certainly not what you'd classify as a demonstration. Nothing will alter my decision to attend one of my kids classes with permission from a teacher and/or principal.

I've always made it clear from the start whenever I've brought a python to a school that the kids can approach me to touch it, rather than be approached. That way people have a choice and aren't forced into making a decision they aren't 100% about.

I'm also well aware of the legalities behind it, but am pretty care-free simply because of the double standards of animal welfare in this country. If there is money to be made out of it, they're onto it. If there is no money in it, it's thrown into the too-hard basket and they don't want to know about it. These regulatory bodies only care about the $$$ they're potentially missing out on, not the wellbeing of the animals involved, so stuff em! 

Reptile keepers who generally do the right thing are a soft money-making target for a bunch of desk-jockeys who never prosecute ANYONE EVER for killing a snake! We care for them, we learn about them, yet take one to school and we're hunted down by the long-arm of the law - what a joke!!


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## Dar1stheory (Feb 9, 2010)

otomix said:


> I'm scared of the police, If I see them behind me in traffic and drive away fast and crash, will I be able to sue them because of my fear response?





snakehandler said:


> ....if you are worried about the police....stop breaking the law



I'm gonna go get a cape one day, and become........ "CAPTAIN OBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE MAN!" :shock:

You don't have to do something illegal to have a fear of police...

I know that I personally can't help reacting in a completely irrational way _physiologically_ to being surprised by police pulling me over, increased heart rate, rush of adrenaline, and then I give my 0% blood alcohol reading, and go on my merry law-abiding way... 

And in the same way, I have seen plenty of adults, and children, have a similarly seemingly irrational reaction to an object, or indeed animal, that in reality poses no significant threat to them, and through education, or exposure, I/we/they can potentially become desensitised to the thing that creates this "fear."

Out of interest, the EPA (QLD) website shows specific rules and boundaries for "showing" all native animals _but_ snakes... Anyone able to share some accurate info on the QLD legislation? A link, or write up?


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## cris (Feb 9, 2010)

Its a bit like J-walking, its all fun and harmless illegal behaviour until someone gets killed :lol: I do agree that there lots of idiots around promoting or 'educating' about snakes in a bad way, subject to opinion some would say being legal has little to do with this side of things as there are differant opinions on how to educate about reptiles.

Moosenoose, there have been prosecutions for killing snakes, some bloke even got prosecuted for killing a roo out in western Qld. Even though many laws are stupid and often ignored, they are sometimes enforced. Whether you are moving a garden skink out of your house without being a qualified animal relocator or taking a bluetounge for 'show and tell', you are breaking the law and that is bad 

When i was at school i never took in any of my animals simply because i didnt want to have to deal with stupid kids harrassing them.


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## kkjkdt1 (Feb 9, 2010)

im with you hashbean and daryl h.
i take my pythons for show n tell all the time, the teacher and kids in the class find out a few days beforhand and when i do take them in the kids either want to touch them or they just sit back but are still intrested in them.
most of the time the kids that are abit afraid come around after they see that they arent 
'KILLERS".
my sons and daughters do the presentation/handleing of the little snakes and i hold the bigger ones. the more we teach people about our wonderful animals the better for everyone.


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## Bushfire (Feb 9, 2010)

Dar1stheory said:


> I'm gonna go get a cape one day, and become........ "CAPTAIN OBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE MAN!" :shock:
> 
> And in the same way, I have seen plenty of adults, and children, have a similarly seemingly irrational reaction to an object, or indeed animal, that in reality poses no significant threat to them, and through education, or exposure, I/we/they can potentially become desensitised to the thing that creates this "fear."


 
Hahaha make sure you put pics up!

Thats all well and true but we shouldnt force people to face their fear, it may make you feel you helped someone but if they arent ready on their terms to face it you'll only add to their fear. That and a few other reasons is why schools normally get permission forms for such events. If someone has a real fear they can choose to avoid it.


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## Dar1stheory (Feb 9, 2010)

Bushfire said:


> Hahaha make sure you put pics up!
> 
> Thats all well and true but we shouldnt force people to face their fear, it may make you feel you helped someone but if they arent ready on their terms to face it you'll only add to their fear. That and a few other reasons is why schools normally get permission forms for such events. If someone has a real fear they can choose to avoid it.



I definitely wouldn't try and force anyone to face their fear, got plenty of mates and family etc that are scared, petrified even, and I don't feel the need to push the issue, just encourage them to embrace the fact that "one man's python is another man's dog"...


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## JasonL (Feb 9, 2010)

My kids both had "Pet week" in Kindy, I took in some of our pets to show the class, the teachers asked me to show the other 3 classes. I did feel sorry for the mum outside waiting with her lab... not as exciting at a frilly, a stumpy, a beardy, some geckos, frogs and a couple of pythons.... as for law breaking... what about the little kid who puts up his hand and tells everyone " I have a snake at home, it's a Corn Snake!". There's always one of them in every crowd of kids these days :lol:


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Its always interesting to hear about people willing to break the regulations for their own needs, but when it suits them they are up in arms......simply put, dont complain about people killing reptiles if you arent willing to live by the regulations that you are supposed to follow when keeping private wildlife.....or do we live in a pick and choose world where we can follow the rules and regulations that suit us!?!?!?


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## CodeRed (Feb 9, 2010)

these harmless show and tells lead to the kids and teachers becoming interested in reptiles. In most cases the schools wouldn't have payed for a full exhibit or demo without some interest being generated first.


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Thats generally called advertising.....all demonstrators do it!


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## CodeRed (Feb 9, 2010)

snakehandler said:


> Thats generally called advertising.....all demonstrators do it!



Come on, you know full well that seeing a reptile in the flesh has far more impact than a brochure (which will most likely be ignored) or yellow pages ad


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Please read the very first post.....conducting demonstrations.......suddenly its about a 3 minute show and tell?


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## JasonL (Feb 9, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> these harmless show and tells lead to the kids and teachers becoming interested in reptiles. In most cases the schools wouldn't have payed for a full exhibit or demo without some interest being generated first.



exactly, I also do talks for scouts and various organisations and societies, always slide show presentations, though sometimes I happen to have the odd python on hand as I'm usually on the way to the vets and I can't leave it in the car :lol:, but yeah, I get so much out of it myself, like 3 hours of time away from my family and a twenty dollar fuel bill.... though sometimes I score a free plant if I'm doing a native flower society.. yep, thats why I break the law, it's the free plants.


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## cris (Feb 9, 2010)

snakehandler said:


> Its always interesting to hear about people willing to break the regulations for their own needs, but when it suits them they are up in arms......simply put, dont complain about people killing reptiles if you arent willing to live by the regulations that you are supposed to follow when keeping private wildlife.....or do we live in a pick and choose world where we can follow the rules and regulations that suit us!?!?!?



I can understand where you are coming from, but IMO Australia is way over regulated and there are heaps of stupid laws(especially in relation to animals and wildlife) that are either ignored or simply not known about. What sort of person calls an animal relocator to move a garden skink out of their house? Never J-walks? Never goes over the speed limit even by 1kmph or less? Doesnt drink in public? Humanely euthaises shrimps, crays and/or fish before feeding them to pets(in Qld) ? etc. (thats without even touching on the stupidity of common law).


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## matt86 (Feb 9, 2010)

cris said:


> Whether you are moving a garden skink out of your house without being a qualified animal relocator or taking a bluetounge for 'show and tell', you are breaking the law and that is bad


 
Yeah, but it is that kind of rigid attitude from regulatory bodies that causes reptile enthusiasts to totally ignore legislation... 

I dug up a tree in my front yard, and there were two bluetongues living under it... I don't have a front fence, and they were heading straight for the road every time I left them alone... So I picked them up, put them in a container, and relocated them about 500m to a park. And QPWS would have an issue with that... so screw them!


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## mrs_davo (Feb 9, 2010)

It not that hard to contact the EPA in your state and GET permission to take your reptiles to the School, Scouts etc.

If it is done correctly - then it does not eventually STUff it up for everyone else who tries to do the right thing.

NO ONE is above the law.

Once day something will happen and you will not have insurance and then you will cry - oh poor me.
You will only have yourself to blame.


I fully agree with snakehandler.

Leave the demos etc to the professionals - after all that is what they are there for.


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## Opalsdad (Feb 9, 2010)

I agree with snakehandler, but I also agree that there is so many over the top legislation and regulations that it is hard to take them seriously. Although if we do not follow these so called rules then we will become the criminals and also leave ourselves open to liability. Laws are Laws and we have no choice except at the polling booths


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## CodeRed (Feb 9, 2010)

JasonL said:


> exactly, I also do talks for scouts and various organisations and societies, always slide show presentations, though sometimes I happen to have the odd python on hand as I'm usually on the way to the vets and I can't leave it in the car :lol:, but yeah, I get so much out of it myself, like 3 hours of time away from my family and a twenty dollar fuel bill.... though sometimes I score a free plant if I'm doing a native flower society.. yep, thats why I break the law, it's the free plants.



You could donate them  surely someone in this thread could do with a nice bunch of flowers to cheer them up


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## moosenoose (Feb 9, 2010)

cris said:


> Moosenoose, there have been prosecutions for killing snakes, some bloke even got prosecuted for killing a roo out in western Qld. Even though many laws are stupid and often ignored, they are sometimes enforced. Whether you are moving a garden skink out of your house without being a qualified animal relocator or taking a bluetounge for 'show and tell', you are breaking the law and that is bad
> 
> .



I am a very bad man :lol: Shoot me!


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## Dar1stheory (Feb 9, 2010)

Opalsdad said:


> Laws are Laws and we have no choice except at the polling booths



:lol: Bwahahahahaha, yeah, like we have a choice there... 

They bring in taxes and laws before they are even passed through our official system (Alcopops), there is nothing you or I can do to stop the machine while remaining the peaceful, lazy and rightfully fearful nation we currently are... 

"_When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty_" - Thomas Jefferson


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## Daryl_H (Feb 9, 2010)

strait up snake handler you have a vested interest in this debate ie show and tell with snakes and lizards means that class wont need to book you next week for what ever fee you charge cause show and tell is free...... is this your real motive banning show and tell? if so i say baaaaah humbug to you good sir!!


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## Andrais (Feb 9, 2010)

hahha did i do something really really wrong taking muffin to school last friday! :shock:
I was only trying to show other kids that snakes arn't bad creatures, and they are quite harmless when tame. All the kids loved it! everyone was looking at her and stuff and even the people that didn't like snakes were really interested. Of course i let her have breaks and stuff, to be left in peace and quiet, and everyone was really interested by her presence. She didn't get stressed or anything, handled all the attention quite well i think.
I reckon that 5 people in my home group on friday morning ran out in terror! and started carrying on a raving that there was a snake blah blah blah. By the start of the first lesson they were volenteering to hold her :lol: 
they thought she was cute cause she is so small! ahhh cute snakes work everytime.
The truth is that childern these days are curious, and even is they swear that they hate snakes and reptiles they are always interested by them. It just takes the right moment and the right understanding for them, a 10 min chat about how safe she is and there hooked!
If breaking the law allows me to get my message accross to people about snakes and reptiles i would rather risk that then having people hate them for no reason. 

anybody breeding spotteds sometime? i got a list of kids that want one! :lol:


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## snakehandler (Feb 9, 2010)

Again read the original post, show and tell is not the issue, it is demonstrations at schools and public groups such as scouts with live animals that I am talking about...I can tell you now that a child with a blue tongue or bearded will not give the same information as any demonstrator that will attend the school.....demonstrators pay more for permits to have the right to do public demonstrations......the private keeper needs to remember what their permit conditions are.....perhaps we should petition that we pay the same as everyone else for our permits....perhaps that would be fair!!!!


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## moosenoose (Feb 9, 2010)

Just to add to the horror I've even relocated a few animals for friends....should I be dragged over the coals for this also?? Hypocrisy would be rife if the answer is yes! I've had plenty of these same friends pop a shovel through a few snakes before I said to them "give me a ring". I won't change my ways because some shiny-pants snake-phobic bureaucrat in a place of authority dictates to me that it's not an option.......8) By rights I should be able to do this without fear of prosecution as I charge nothing for it! 

So let me see; just let householders do whatever they like to the snakes in my area without any repercussions, or let me relocate the snakes (as the DSE or any of these other clowns aren't paying my medical bills or income protection) and not care about the repercussions and do something positive. It's a no-brainer!

I do agree regarding the topic of demonstrations though, but not a simple show and tell. Horses for courses.


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## Serpentes_15 (Feb 9, 2010)

People who give false information at demonstrations, that are not covered by permits, leave themselves open to slaughter before a jury. If a child that was subjected to such a demonstration is bitten by a venomous snake than the demonstrator is liable. Infact it doesn't even have to be false information. At the end of the day those individuals have never gone before an ethics committee, have never been made to meet certain standards and thus are not qualified to attempt in the education and awareness of wildlife.

Remember that children don't always define between when they can or cannot do something. It is best that professionals be the one to teach them this remembering that reptile demonstrotors often have experience in working with children and are deemed qualified to do so. 

If the worst case scenario occured than everything positive that the herpetological community has worked to instill in public opinion will be for nothing. 

The general public allready stereotype herpers enough as it is so how about we allow a little more proffessionalism and a little less amateurism in the industry. Common sense tells me that this would ultimately result in increased acceptance of herpetofauna and less public outcry against irresponsible pet keepers. 

P.S. If people really think that educational institutions would ever think of substituting educational programs with amateur displays than you need to wake up and smell the roses. If they want an educational display they will get a professional regardless of having freebies available. Any institution that does otherwise risks breaching Occupational Health and Safety and is feeding students inferior knowledge. Demonstrators aren't worried about losing work to these inferior amateur displays. It must be frustrating for them however to work so hard at educating the public on the facts, dispelling the myths, and promoting awareness that minimise conflicts with reptiles and nagative media, only to have someone spread a bunch of crap that will be soaked up by the general public and spat out through the local media.

If your not a qualified doctor you dont demonstrate first aid so the same kind of ideology fits across the board. Reptiles can pose a risk so the message must be the right one, the first time, for the reptiles and the general publics sake.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 10, 2010)

Just wondering what qualifications do you need to get demo permits?


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## Carpetpythonmorphs (Feb 10, 2010)

In NSW, I believe the Exhibited Animals Protection Act has an exemption for animals held legally to be allowed to be used for "one off" demonstrations in schools, scouts etc.


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## CodeRed (Feb 10, 2010)

Geckoman123 said:


> Just wondering what qualifications do you need to get demo permits?



persistence when applying


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## CodeRed (Feb 10, 2010)

Carpetpythonmorphs said:


> In NSW, I believe the Exhibited Animals Protection Act has an exemption for animals held legally to be allowed to be used for "one off" demonstrations in schools, scouts etc.




Thats pretty much the info my wife was given too


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## Firepac (Feb 10, 2010)

Its more the information that these people are giving to the kids that worries me, just because you hold a Recreational permit doesn't mean you have any knowledge or expertise. Mind you just because you have a Demonstrators Permit doesn;t necessarily mean you have the knowledge either.... only a few weeks ago I was called to pick up an 'Eastern Brown' that someone had caught and wanted me to relocate. He told me he had travelled the country for over 20 years giving snake demonstrations ..... when I finally got to see the snake it was a Yellow-faced Whip snake!! The guy wouldn't believe me and insisted it was an EB until I just put my hand in he bucket and picked it up. Should have seen his face LOL.... Priceless


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## crotalus1 (Feb 10, 2010)

I think "Snakehandler" has it all wrong.
If a demonstrator can't compete with kids doing "show and tell" with their own pets, I think it's time the demonstrator raised their standards and their own lack of business problems would evaporate.
I recall speaking to a teacher recently who said that after seeing the last unnamed licenced demonstrator attacking innocuous snakes with tongs in the classroom, she'd never risk having a demonstrator in class again.
She said sending the wrong message of brutalising snakes was the last thing she wanted kids to see and said she preferred a show and tell with a bit of care and compassion anyday!


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## Serpentes_15 (Feb 10, 2010)

oh hey he who must not be named and mutilates elapids for profit. I think its time you made a new alter ego, i think where catching on to this one. What were the standards that your bussiness has again? I think i recall hearing some very negative feedback on a certain demonstrators free handling of elapids. Gee some demonstrators that i will not name even have told children off for getting bitten by a snake thats meant to be displayed in a safe way. 

If certain demonstrators that i will not name had any understanding of animal ethics commitees and the way they worked than they would be aware that Gentle Giant tongs cause no dameage to snakes when used properly. only way to hurt a snake with GG's is to hit them with it. 

I use them and there far more humane than backyard surgery by people who may not necessarily have any scientific let alone veterinary training. 

No one cares what you think mr crotalus so stop wasting our time on slanderous crap and make something of your own time.


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## Hemiaspis (Feb 10, 2010)

Serpentes_15 said:


> oh hey he who must not be named and mutilates elapids for profit. I think its time you made a new alter ego, i think where catching on to this one. What were the standards that your bussiness has again? I think i recall hearing some very negative feedback on a certain demonstrators free handling of elapids. Gee some demonstrators that i will not name even have told children off for getting bitten by a snake thats meant to be displayed in a safe way.
> 
> If certain demonstrators that i will not name had any understanding of animal ethics commitees and the way they worked than they would be aware that Gentle Giant tongs cause no dameage to snakes when used properly. only way to hurt a snake with GG's is to hit them with it.
> 
> ...


 
Couldn't have put it any better myself


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## snakehandler (Feb 10, 2010)

Crotalus1, welcome back RAY....more false claims...provide proof!


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## hashbean (Feb 10, 2010)

back to the topic
theres no way you or any one can stop a kid wanting to bring his pet into school for
show and tell/demonstration .
if that means you lose money because of it
then i would say mabe a oversight with your buisness plan ??


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## Dar1stheory (Feb 10, 2010)

Serpentes_15 said:


> If your not a qualified doctor you dont demonstrate first aid so the same kind of ideology fits across the board.



 Oh dear... The rest of your rant might have held some credibility til you let this one slip...


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## snakehandler (Feb 10, 2010)

If you take the time to read the original post and several posts since, I have stated that show and tell is not the issue....make sure you read the posts before you comment.


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## cris (Feb 10, 2010)

crotalus1 said:


> Not Ray, but work for him and must say that attacking a herp icon at every turn reflects more on you than him.
> Again, I state that demonstrators have nothing to fear from kids doing "show and tell" so long as the demonstrators have a standard high enough to make people want to book them and pay for their services.
> An established reputation spanning decades would help as well, but many of the dozens of new outfits are making a good go of things.



He is not complaining about show and tell, but those doing more organised demonstrations without a permit. As far as i know 'you guys' actually held a large part of this market due to an legal advantage that allowed the public handle Elapids and do displays in shopping centers etc. although that changed sometime recently didnt it?

Either way the point behind the thread is saying if its legal, its all good. So your all good from as far as the whinge in this thread is concerned.


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## cris (Feb 10, 2010)

Dar1stheory said:


> Oh dear... The rest of your rant might have held some credibility til you let this one slip...



Would hate to see a reptile display from someone without a PHD showing snake bite first aid :lol: or worse showing how to apply a band aid


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## snakehandler (Feb 10, 2010)

A professional reputation goes along way too, this is not a thread stating that I am struggling for business, this is a thread to focus on the fact that people scream about violations of parts of the wildlife acts, killing reptiles, and then turn a blind eye when it suits them so they can provide a demonstration without a permit. 

If we were truly struggling I would be spending more time seeking business, currently I am spending my time trying to find suitable people to work for us......

BTW business plans work well when all people within the industry abide by the regulations, however when sections of the industry do not follow regulations that are designed to govern the industry then it does not matter how good your plan is, it will not work, this also includes false statements and advertising.


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## whyme (Feb 10, 2010)

snakehandler said:


> A professional reputation goes along way too, this is not a thread stating that I am struggling for business, this is a thread to focus on the fact that people scream about violations of parts of the wildlife acts, killing reptiles, and then turn a blind eye when it suits them so they can provide a demonstration without a permit.
> 
> If we were truly struggling I would be spending more time seeking business, currently I am spending my time trying to find suitable people to work for us......
> 
> BTW business plans work well when all people within the industry abide by the regulations, however when sections of the industry do not follow regulations that are designed to govern the industry then it does not matter how good your plan is, it will not work, this also includes false statements and advertising.


 I think the problem here is people are looking at this from a money making sense. Like he has said 500 times over, the odd kids show and tell is not the issue. From what I've deciphered, it's about DEMONSTRATIONS. You need to have the right quals, insurance, etc, etc, to run these demo's and why should some have to fork out and others not. If you don't hld a demo license, don't do demo's. Simple. Follow the protocol to take yor reps to show and tell for your kids. A few 5 min show and tells aren't gonna wreck business. I think this thread is about stopping UNQUALIFIED and UNINSURED demonstrators. Like has been said, why should some people have to pay for the privelage and others not.


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## Andie (Feb 10, 2010)

I can see why people do it. It irks me that if you are a teacher you can't take you own pet to your own classroom (with the school's permission of course!). I think that is wrong.

A few weeks ago I had to take my 2 sick beardie hatchys to work (childcare) with me because I was syringe feeding them 3 times a day. We let the kids come up a couple at a time and quietly look at them through the box. They really really enjoyed it and we had the best discussions about habitats, comparing how they look with the centre's native population of EWDs and why they look different. The kids drew pictures and it was a really good day 'lizardy' day for them! 

I get a lot of teachers asking me to come to their schools and centres with my pets (which include birds as well as herps. I hate having to say no (I feel so mean!) but I just don't think it is worth the risk of getting sued. That is the sad reality of the world we live in.

My biggest gripe with all this licensing is how much is costs!!! It costs a lot (to me anyway!) to get a demonstrator license and insurance. I know the business is out there. I have seriously looked into it, got quotes and everything, and I just can't afford to get myself set up. I know I would be good at it and I believe what I want to do is pretty unique (won't go into specifics just now) but the cost holds me back. It would allow me some control over my finances while I finish my teaching degree but what uni student can save up $1300+ dollars to start something?!


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## snakehandler (Feb 10, 2010)

So get a job with a demonstrator!!!!


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## Andie (Feb 10, 2010)

I would love to snakehandler but they probably get every teenager with a snake or beardie asking for a job. I have a pretty specific plan of what I want to do based on what teachers have told me schools most value. 

No one wants to hire me for just 2 days a week. I only have 2 school days off each week but even if I only took 2 lessons each month for now that would be a huge relief for me.

I totally agree with all that you have said but at the same time, I don't think the high cost the government charges encourages people who might be really good at it.


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## snakehandler (Feb 11, 2010)

Pity your not down here, I am looking for people like you with that kind of enthusiasm....being a teacher myself I enjoy designing programs for each school I go to, or send staff to. We would love to have a person that is available 2 days a week during the week and possibly weekends too. If there was any such person down here I would love to meet them!

Permits and the work you have to go through in QLD make it very hard indeed....


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## snakehandler (Feb 11, 2010)

Andie as a teacher I also had a demonstrators permit, as such I could take animals into the school, we had them in the classroom, but when it came to a full demonstration I left it to a close friend of mine who had the time to do the whole year level without disrupting classes, it also meant that I was not taking work from the people who do this type of work on a full time basis. 

Now I am full time in it and love doing schools, I need part time teachers, or even teaching students who are willing to get their hands dirty and learn more about the animals that they will be working with as well as attending them. To find staff who can learn about reptiles, not only work with, but communicate well with children and get in and clean enclosures is a very difficult proposition......


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## Noongato (Feb 11, 2010)

I not keen on the idea of people taking reptiles for show and tell, cos alot of the time people do it just to brag...But other than that, i think people need to stop whinging. Things were a whole less uptight in the old days and most people grew up to be respectable people. Now everything is changing, everyone sues everyone for everything and look at the lovely people of todays society.


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## varanid_mike (Feb 11, 2010)

When I was younger I took my animals to school, on a few occasions. This helped grow my interest and passion and give me the skills I needed to do what I do well now. Before snake handler was snake handler he was a high school teacher and took animals in to school without any permits, I remember you telling me this on a trip years ago. I agree with you that someone who keeps reptiles should be responsible and not take 5-10 animals in for a one hour session but when you take a snake or two to show your childs class or the child takes their pet to school I see that as an important part of education in that Childs future (and the class) reptile knowledge and experience. You have a valid point but it’s not something to be getting frustrated about.


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## snakehandler (Feb 11, 2010)

Actually Mike, get it right...I had permits with the former owner of the business....I was his licensed assistant...I took the animals to school with his permission. Until that stage another teacher at the school would bring in her pythons.


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## SLACkra (Feb 11, 2010)

I have to agree on principal with snakehandler, hes completely licenced trained and insured to do public displays of austrlian wildlife and it's his job. I doubt it's a money thing as his business seems to be doing quite well. However all it takes is some kid to get bit by a python or even a lizard and people start thinking wildlife demonstrations are unsafe. Also I assume snakehandler ensures all the people, especially children that attend his demonstrations are thuroughly informed not to go near snakes in the wild as they could be venomous. What happens if a kid who sees a snake demonstration and and the next day goes and picks up a tiger snake by mistake?

Though I might be a bit biased as I'm a licenced snake catcher and the idea of people disregarding the regulations that I follow annoys me. 

Andrew


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## Daryl_H (Feb 11, 2010)

snakehandler said:


> Andie
> 
> Now I am full time in it and love doing schools, I need part time teachers, or even teaching students who are willing to get their hands dirty and learn more about the animals that they will be working with as well as attending them. To find staff who can learn about reptiles, not only work with, but communicate well with children and get in and clean enclosures is a very difficult proposition......


 

quite simply look at your pay rate rase the pay scale to a liveable wage and you might rase the interst of more applicable people ive inquired with other company's and been told the pay scale and id be better off working with people half my age at mcdonalds. i was a butcher for over 11 years so people skills and up to scratch and as far as knolage goes ive kept over 30 different species of reptiles.


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## varanidaddict (Feb 11, 2010)

*reptiles in school*

every year i take a selection of reptiles to schools etc for free in queensland you can do this but first you need a letter of invitation from the school specifiying what date and what species and then parks will give you a letter of permission specifying what animals and location and date


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## snakehandler (Feb 11, 2010)

Pay is not the issue, it is sorting the resumes out that we receive. The rate of pay we offer is above the award wage for this position..... my personal rate of pay is identical to my staff....I am able to pay a mortgage and keep food on the table...


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## Daryl_H (Feb 11, 2010)

snakehandler said:


> Pay is not the issue, it is sorting the resumes out that we receive. The rate of pay we offer is above the award wage for this position..... my personal rate of pay is identical to my staff....I am able to pay a mortgage and keep food on the table...


 


simply not true just smoke and mirrors. you may pay yourself an hourly rate from the biz but anythin left over after all expences are payed simply dissapears?

not to say you dont deserve it after all you hae started a very profitable company and deserve the bennifits.... 


do you truly belive your staff working a standard week (40-45 hrs) could afford to buy into the houseing market? and still live well?


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## snakehandler (Feb 11, 2010)

Actually that would be corporate theft, we are an incorporated company. Profit goes back to the business to expand it and develop new projects. Wages are not mentioned in the job description, this is only discussed at interview stage, it is more along the lines that we are particular about who we employ....we have standards!


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## Waterrat (Feb 11, 2010)

Hold you horses guys, I only put it up for bit of a temporary fun, not a character assassination. Please lets get back to the thread.
I promised myself to be good a boy and stay out of trouble on these forums ... then again, there is nothing controversial in posting this high quality photograph that featured in a magazine. 
Oh, those menacing venomoids give me the shivers!


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## Waterrat (Feb 12, 2010)

Not sure why this last post of mine was left there. May as well hack it too because it doesn't make sense without the previous posts.

Thanks


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## Dave1gsxr (Feb 12, 2010)

codered is right, if it weren't for lawyers then this would not be happening, come on people, are we suing each other for seeing something that rattles us.. *** is happening with society..

every1 is lookin 4 the easy way out, well sorry i dont feel for ppl like that.

lawyers are the cause for all these problems.

stinkin turds.


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## grizz (Feb 13, 2010)

What a load of crap...

Our kids are in need of support on this issue and I am fully behind their opinion to introduce the animals we find fascinating to their peers. 


If all the kids in the school want to watch and listen, I congratulate you, those that choose not to... enjoy the rest of your life.


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## pythonmum (Feb 13, 2010)

I haven't read all the posts here, so forgive me if I am repeating what someone has said...
There ARE ways you can get permission to take your herps to a school within the limits of the law. I'm a teacher and have looked into the demonstrator licenses, but decided it was not for someone who just occasionally presented about snakes. Folks who have obtained that license have taken a lot of trouble and expense to get it! 
If I want to take some animals to a school or other public place (the local Probus club invited me last year), I write to the licensing authority and explain what I want to do and what animals are involved. They give me permission for that particular event and we are all legal and happy. If you plan ahead, it's no big deal. You do, however, have to think things through ahead of time. The Animals in Schools regulations in NSW (can't speak for other states, as I haven't read them) allow you to bring in reptiles and show them, but you still need permission from DECC. 
If you want to keep a reptile in the classroom, you have to jump through a different set of hoops, but it can be done, too. As snakehandler says, read your license conditions. Learn the laws and regulations, which may come from multiple sides (DECC, Depatment of Education and Department of Agriculture in NSW). I've just prepared the renewal for our school's scientific license which allows us to keep reptiles. It is a hassle, but definitely worth it. The students learn a lot just by having the reptiles around. It counteracts common prejudices and ignorant assumptions. It also serves as a great way to expand our hobby to the next generation of keepers. I love having a MD in my classroom and use him in class whenever possible!


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